# Making Marines work



## Vashtek

We've been having a look at the failure of marine armies in recent tournaments and tried to examine the problems they have in this thread.

Problems include a lack of flexibility in troops choices, the severe nerfing of several units and issues to do with the new edition of the game. Best to read people's thoughts rather than taking my word for it.

I've split the thread because I'd like to seperate the discussion of what is to be done about the problem from the analysis of the problem itself. Optimism and good ideas here please, despair and recriminations in the other thread.

Now handing you back to Vashtek

Someguy



I expect to see a slight change in emphasis to focus on the ork threat and this may make things a little easier on marines as Galahad has commented but I don't expect to suddenly see marines finishing in the top 5 at a GT.

That said, should we try to come up with the most competitive list we can think of? I'll kick off by proposing the following:

Chapter master- relic blade	155

Dreadnought- plasma cannon, heavy flamer	125
Dreadnought- plasma cannon, heavy flamer	125
Dreadnought- plasma cannon, heavy flamer	125

10xmarines: lascannon, plasma gun	190
razorback- lascannon, twin plasma	75

10xmarines: plasma cannon, flamer, combi-flamer	185
razorback- twin heavy bolter	40

10xmarines: plasma cannon, plasma gun	185
razorback- twin heavy bolter	40

Predator- autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons	85
Predator- autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons	85
Predator- autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons	85

Has stuff to deal with horde and MEQ. Can anyone do better?


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## Gobbo

Heres my current list, needs a little tweaking but seems to be working okay.


115 - master of forge, combi melta (Purely for being a cheap hq choice with bs 5 and a chance to fix vehicles)


260 - 10 marines, Lascannon, meltagun, Razorback
75 - razorback, lascannon, TL plasmagun
260 - 10 marines, Lascannon, meltagun, Razorback
75 - razorback, lascannon, TL plasmagun
265 - 10 marines, Lascannon, plasma gun, Razorback
75 - razorback, lascannon, TL plasmagun
125 - Dreadnaught, PlasmaCannon, Heavy Flamer
125 - Dreadnaught, PlasmaCannon, Heavy Flamer
125 - Dreadnaught, PlasmaCannon, Heavy Flamer
115 - Vindicator
115 - Vindicator

1505


I usually just hammer them at range and use combat tactics to fail the occasional morale check to stop my units getting charged and giving me an extra turn of shooting at a big ork mob/ whatever else is charging. 

It's got enough transports to hide the troops from lashing armies. 30 armored bodies, 5 tanks, 3 dreads.


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## darklove

Isn't this more for Lists rather than Tactics?

No. I put it here on purpose so that people could discuss the proper tactics for using marines. Sometimes that means they have to tell us what's in their army.

Someguy out


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## madmacmcmad

> Problems include a lack of flexibility in troops choices


Tactical marines and scouts...... With the amount of weapon options, transport types and the ability to combat squad. I call that fairly flexible. 

I refer you to a post in the 'moaning about marines post' or whatever it is called. 

there are so many cool combos with the new marines which kind of require using a special charecter alot of the time but they are suppose to be generic and are ment to represent the assault captain of a chapter (Shrike), the captain who favours the bike (white scars bloke) etc. You can have armies that all outflank which kind of makes the daemon deep strike thing look crap. 

Yes those armies are fairly good but i think the truly horrible marine armies will be made utilising the special charecter rules or the drop pod army. If we are talking about a proper competetive marine army that is and not one just to play the mates with. 

I was comtemplating a shrike assault marine army witha couple of tactical marine units to hold the objectives and then as many vanguard and assault marines as i can fit in. Then you have alot of guys that can assault anyone within 24 inches if your lucky which isnt bad. 

There is so much to play with in the army and so many nice units which i have noted some of them on the other thread you just need to take the time to think of the best ways to get the best out of them. 

With all this talk of marines being crap i am so tempted to make a new marine army to prove you all wrong. sadly I have fallen deeply in love with my ork horde.

I really have to stop all this ranting. Sorry if I am talking complete *%&$ and please comment. I havent used the new marines so i dont know how each unit works in practice but the theory part of it i think they are awesome!


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## Vashtek

darklove said:


> Isn't this more for Lists rather than Tactics?


I'm not sure. This is really a brainstorm (or 'thought shower for the PC brigade...) to come up with some great marine lists. I'm not really asking for critiques, but marine lists people are using which they think are good.

Interesting how similar our lists are, gobbo. I initially went for a master of the forge too (but with a c.beamer), but found I needed to go forward with him, didn't use the fixy thing that much, so switched to chapter master (and the potentially helpful orbital barrage).

I like all the lascannons in your list, and the lack of them is clearly a failure in mine. 

How are you finding your vindicators? Whenever I use them they seem to miss/ be out of range. 3 (albeit static) predators cost 245 and 2 vindicators cost 230...


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## Gobbo

Vashtek said:


> How are you finding your vindicators? Whenever I use them they seem to miss/ be out of range. 3 (albeit static) predators cost 245 and 2 vindicators cost 230...




Quite like the vindis, In most games you start 24" away from the enemy, so just roll forward and start shooting. I did have predators for a while but I found they just weren't doing much. Without them being twin linked you only usually hit with one autocannon and 3 or 4 h bolters, your lucky if your killing two orks a turn with their 4+ cover save. Not to impressive, for a tank. 

As for hq im still not really sure, one of my friends suggested a libby for gating around and grabbing a last turn objective. But if you take a weapon destroyed or immobolised hit on your tank its pretty much useless. So its handy to be able to fix it on a 4+.

Also as for razorbacks, I'm never taking anything other than TL plasma and lascannon. These things earn their points back time and time again. Anyone silly enough to get close is in a world of hurt. Just wish I could squeeze a few more flamers in.


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## Jackinator

How about:
HQ
Captain, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs - 120
Command Squad, Company Standard,
2 flamers, Power Fist - 165

Troops
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist and Meltagun - 200
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 200
10 man Tactical squad, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 185

Total - 1500pts

This is still at the moment a purely theoretical list but I'm thinking that it should be able to handle anything. The Tactical squads can obliterate tanks and MEQs an the Captain and Command Squad can act as a counter charge unit. As for horde armies, 42 bolters and 2 flamers shouldn't have that much trouble.


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## Someguy

madmacmcmad said:


> I really have to stop all this ranting. Sorry if I am talking complete *%&$ and please comment. I havent used the new marines so i dont know how each unit works in practice but the theory part of it i think they are awesome!


Let me again clarify: We are not moaning about marines in the abstract and crying that we can't have so many assault cannons any more. We are debating the *fact* that they did fucking abysmally badly in GTs this year so far. 

163 people went to the baltimore GT this year. 21 took marines, roughly 1 in 8, and the best any of them managed was 70th place. 6 of the bottom 20 were marines, so they actually dominate the bottom 20 more than orks (with 5/20) dominate the top. We want to know why this is and we're and trying to figure out what to do about it.

Please understand that you are talking to people who have read the book, have seen the special characters and have thought about the options available. The people who went to the tournaments had as well, and it's likely that lots of these ideas were tried. It's kind of insulting to these people to just go "yeah but have you thought of using Shrike and some assault marines?". I think they probably have thought of it.


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## RudeAwakening79

How about:
HQ
Captain, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs - 120
Command Squad, Company Standard,
2 flamers, Power Fist - 165

Troops
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist and Meltagun - 200
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 210
10 man Tactical squad, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 200
10 man Tactical squad, Plasma Gun and Lascannon - 185

Total - 1500pts

===================================
Now here is something I like :victory:


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## RudeAwakening79

Someguy said:


> Please understand that you are talking to people who have read the book, have seen the special characters and have thought about the options available. The people who went to the tournaments had as well, and it's likely that lots of these ideas were tried. It's kind of insulting to these people to just go "yeah but have you thought of using Shrike and some assault marines?". I think they probably have thought of it.


You got a nice way of explaining yourself, +rep for that!

It's so true. I also think people have thought about their options before entering the tourney. More reason to suspect a different cause, which we are trying to mark here. It might have to do with the mention earlier, that a lot of players have anti-MEQ geared armies...those armies need to be countered with different strategies yet to be tested/tried.


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## Jackinator

Maybe it's because so many guys (or gals) new to the hobby choose space marines because they are the (supposedly) easiest army to play with, however this isn't true because especially with the new rules the easy tactics just fall apart now. This leaves new marine players as dead meat for veterans:cray:.


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## Katie Drake

Curious, is there a place that shows what army lists were used at these GTs? I figure that if we can get a look at what isn't working, we can try to figure out what will work.


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## Cole Deschain

My suggestion?

Get over Las/Plas to the exclusion of reason, the all-sniper rifle scout mentality, or any of the other thousand hold-overs from prior Codices, and take a good look at your builds. (Yes, I haven't won a single battle with my Space Marines. Shaddup)

Son of Horus, who plays locally, runs a very solid Space Marine list- one that has a respectable (almost 50/50) win/loss ratio versus my Ork army.

And it's almost nothing to do with his list, and everything to do with his tactics (although, admittedly, the fact that he switched to more Heavy Bolters in his Dev Squads didn't hurt).

He doesn't bring any of the shiny new toys (aside from the wargear switch on his Captains and Chaplains), and focuses solely on full-strength Tactical Squads.

And they get the job done.

While an individual Tactical Marine might not be utterly spectacular at any one thing, they can handle nearly any give challenge thrown their way- provided they're used properly.

And that depends as much upon your opponent as upon your list.


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## Gobbo

This is a tactic I drummed up earlier on I think it could be pretty powerful I havent quite decided how to use it yet.

So you take a 70 pt scout bike squad that comes with telehomers for free. They infiltrate and make a scout move so you can have them pretty much anywhere you want on the board in the first movement phase.

Next you have a librarian with gate of the infinity (or whatever its called) and you put him in a squad of something potent against your oponent, deepstrike him to the telehomers and blam. You could put him with a set of termies with 5 heavy flamers or a couple of meltaguns to take out that all important vehicle. 

Plus its got a bit of flexibility since he can do it with any infantry unit in your army. You could maybe even be cheesey too, and use two librarians for two units, or even one to move them there, shoot like mad, then move them away. (Not sure if this is legal rule wise though as I haven't looked into it to far)


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## Katie Drake

Gobbo said:


> So you take a 70 pt scout bike squad that comes with telehomers for free. They infiltrate and make a scout move so you can have them pretty much anywhere you want on the board in the first movement phase.


Since when did Scout Bikes come with teleport homers for free?



> Next you have a librarian with gate of the infinity (or whatever its called) and you put him in a squad of something potent against your oponent, deepstrike him to the telehomers and blam. You could put him with a set of termies with 5 heavy flamers or a couple of meltaguns to take out that all important vehicle.


Terminators can't take 5 heavy flamers or melta weapons. 



> Plus its got a bit of flexibility since he can do it with any infantry unit in your army. You could maybe even be cheesey too, and use two librarians for two units, or even one to move them there, shoot like mad, then move them away. (Not sure if this is legal rule wise though as I haven't looked into it to far)


You can't quite pull that off. Gate is used at the start of the Librarian's movement phase, if I remember right.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> Rawr Rawr blah rules/QUOTE]
> 
> Damn you woman! and all these rules. You should have just left me blissfully unaware and making up the rules as I go along, after all thats one of the key parts of 40k. I guess I must of been thinking of ravenwing, im sure some lucky bikers get them for free.
> 
> 
> Fine it is a little more complex than I made out, but it could still be pokey. And chaos terminators can have 5 heavy flamers. NERF CHAOS!


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## Katie Drake

Gobbo said:


> Damn you woman! and all these rules. You should have just left me blissfully unaware and making up the rules as I go along, after all thats one of the key parts of 40k. I guess I must of been thinking of ravenwing, im sure some lucky bikers get them for free.


Yep, Ravenwing Bikers get 'em for free, but there are no Scout Bikers in Dark Angel armies. 



> Fine it is a little more complex than I made out, but it could still be pokey. And chaos terminators can have 5 heavy flamers. NERF CHAOS!


Err... no they can't.  They can have one heavy weapon (heavy flamer or reaper autocannon) unless the unit is fully 10 strong. They can take one _combi_-flamer per model, though.

Jeesh, which Codex are you reading?


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## Son of mortarion

Gobbo said:


> This is a tactic I drummed up earlier on I think it could be pretty powerful I havent quite decided how to use it yet.
> 
> So you take a 70 pt scout bike squad that comes with telehomers for free. They infiltrate and make a scout move so you can have them pretty much anywhere you want on the board in the first movement phase.
> 
> Next you have a librarian with gate of the infinity (or whatever its called) and you put him in a squad of something potent against your oponent, deepstrike him to the telehomers and blam. You could put him with a set of termies with 5 heavy flamers or a couple of meltaguns to take out that all important vehicle.
> 
> Plus its got a bit of flexibility since he can do it with any infantry unit in your army. You could maybe even be cheesey too, and use two librarians for two units, or even one to move them there, shoot like mad, then move them away. (Not sure if this is legal rule wise though as I haven't looked into it to far)


Any concerns about whether or not you can do this aside, what is needed is tactics, not tricks, or cheese.
The main reason the there is a lag time when new rule sets or codices come out is the use of special combinations and cheese, instead of development of tactics.
To win, any Sm player, loyalist and otherwise, needs to look away from the shiny stuff, and build lists that are truly solid. 
Take core troops. and even the humble scout can be a game winner if used right. look at how the various units work together, and build synergy, such as the effect that an infiltrating scout squad can have when equipped with sniper rifles, and combined with static fire support. pinning isn't limited to affecting the targeted squad, it is simply how it is used most of the time. Try using an infantry based force that uses at least 4 tactical squads, all at full strength, experiment with the use of combat squads. they open up new avenues for dealing with opponents, and can help to make the force you apply to opposing squads more efficient, say instead of pouring eight bolter s into a tank, and a meltagun and the missile launcher, try just the missile launcher, with the other half using either plasma gun or a flamer. instead of using a 10 man assault squad to hunt IG, use 2 5 man squads. 

Above all, carefully look at the strengths of your force and use them to your advantage instead of relying on "cheese" that might not be there in new editions.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> Jeesh, which Codex are you reading?


Heh aparently I haven't been reading any of them, just looking at the pretty pictures and determining the rules from there. You just wait, I'm gonna start lurking in the daemon section and smite you whenever you miss something


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## Jezlad

> To win, any Sm player, loyalist and otherwise, needs to look away from the shiny stuff, and build lists that are truly solid.


Without the tricks and new stuff the new marine codex is nothing but a poor imitation of the superior traited list of 4th edition.

Tactical squads might win a few pickup games at the local GT but they don't win tournaments. Never have and never will do.

How do you suppose vanilla "pick'n'mix" smurfs will fare against dual lash with 9 oblits popping the rhinos then plas humping the bunched tactical marines?

The list is inferior, I hope i'm proven wrong but I can't see it placing top 3 at a GT final, ever.


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## Son of mortarion

To deal with lash and 9 obliterators, try dropping the rhinos and combat squadding your tac squads and any devestators you have. this means that not only will the lash affect less of your overall force, bit the obliterators will have a target rich environment, allowing you more time to kill them. once the obliterators and the lashing DPs or sorcerors are gone, the rest of the opposition will fall apart, since the player was banking on the combo to win.

as a general bit of advice, try a tac that I use with my death guard: don't rely on any one unit to do the work, but try to maneuver them so that they are able to mutually support each other, and have "interval" so that blast weapons do not gain advantage over them. I try to keep 2-3 squads within 12-18 inches of each other so that they can have the ability to unleash a withering fusillade of bolter fire at any squad large enough to survive the fire of a single squad.


I am not saying that they will win every time by using their advantages as best as possible, but that they can be viable without using cheese lists. My experience has been that a tactical squad, used right, and given the right equipment can be extremely devastating.


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## Someguy

For what it's worth I don't think either teleport homers or locator beacons help with gate. Teleport homers say they only work for termies deep striking and locator beacons say they work when a unit "enters play" by deep strike. The libby is already there, ergo he is not entering play... not that this is defined anywhere as a rule of course.

I do think it's totally against the fluff for either to work anyway. The problems a librarian faces when gating are rather different to the ones people have when aiming drop pods.


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## Dessel_Ordo

The things I've noticed:
Daemons are so devastating because they show up on top of you, and proceed to have... "surprise buttsecks" with your army. with Drop Pod Assault, SM can do that as well... and shoot in the process, you get a smaller force, but it can land almost directly on top of objectives/dangerous units, allowing you to take out the DP's, or the better part of the oblits, the lootas in back doing most of the _real_ damage that makes hordes so hard todeal with ect. ect. (and since you get explicit choice of what shows up, when you pod the whole army, you do the Daemons trick better _and_ do damage on the way in)

Tau guns are so deadly because of the range. Pulse isnt to horrible, its rail type weapons that do the most damage. The conversion beamer dares them to stay at 72' and pick off SM vehicles, dares them to with a strength 10 AP 1 blast.

Speaking of the MoF, he lets you take 6 dreads. The basic dread list I have is
Master of the Forge 135
w/CB
w/PW 

Elites 480
3x Dreadnaught (160)
w/TLLC
w/ML

Heavy Support 375
3x Dreadnaught (125)
w/ASSCAN
w/HF

Troops
2x 10 man Tac 200
w/PC
w/Flamer
w/PF
2x 10 man Tac 205
w/LC
w/FLamer
w/PF

total: 1755

thats not my standard list, but it is one I am building (along with a 2250 pod variant and a 2770 pod/landspeeder varient)

hate to post from hell, but a marine footslogger list using teired fire can be devastating, my normal list is this:

HQ 288
Master 173
w/Artificer Armour
w/Relic Blade
w/Storm Bolter

Chapplain 115
w/JP

Troops 605
2x 10 man Tac 200
w/PC
w/Flamer
w/PF
1x 10 man Tac 205
w/LC
w/FLamer
w/PF

Fast Attack
5 man Assault Marine Squad
w/PP
w/PP
w/PW
(replacing this and the chappy with Sternguard once I buy the models (being low on cash sucks))

Heavy Support 460
10 man Dev 230
w/4x HB
10 man Dev 230
w/4xML

total: 1497

its not fast, but teired firepower keeps the enemy in constantly increasing ammounts of pain, the use of Combat Squadding and sheer number of marines on the board prevent large chunks from being outed in one shot, there are no fire magnets (except for the master) so nothing hurts when you lose it, and since power armour is a bitch, and cover is plentiful, the worst that could happen is losing one full squad per turn, and thats from highly concentrated fire (never under-estimate a 3+). And finally, the large ammounts of templates boosts both MEQ and horde killing power, using combat squads, your home objectives well defended. If lash is too much of an issue, a librarian with a hood could replace the Master, and rush the DP's using said whips (and chains, lol, had to do it, sorry)

Now that I have input some lists, I have one more thing to say, really: Redeemer. yes, that, two S6 AP3 flamers on an AV 14 all round, 12 man transport. most armies have 1, maybe 2 weapons that have a 50% chance of penning it. Only Tau can get a truly sick ammount of these weapons, loaded with your objective takers, and crammed down the enemies throut with propper support (devs, tanks, DSing termies, Sternguard, HI Vanguard, Whirlies, Vindies... lots of stuff will seem more dangerous until this thing hits flamer range) and you can clean up the enemy pretty quickly, taking some objectives in the process.

If you havent picked up on the trend I've been showing: hamemr and anvil tactics. Marines do these better than any other army with their surviveability (IG mechanized are on par, as are Mech Tau, but space marines do it best). A big unit to take punishment, and a small, hard hitting one that pounds the living shit out of the other sides asses in only one or two turns (the anvil, of course, would long range fuck most of the scary stuff).

there, hope that moster post can get our juices flowing a bit more now... well, the creative ones at least... :shok:


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## Lord Reevan

Is this tactics section for just codex SM or all offshoots of Marines as well? Probably irrelevant for major tactics however. 

The main reason I see armies lose is because they're spread too thin on the attack. In defense it's grand because blasts don't hurt as much, and several squads at once can't be assaulted. on the attack though I like to keep my units close together and complementing each other. 

My troops nearly always consist of 2 assault squads and 2 tactical squads in rhinos. Tac squads will usually have no heavy weapon, either a flamer or melta gun and a CC weapon, fist for one, sword for the other, same with the assault squad. have tac squad teamed with an assault squad and target seperate units together. both with rapid firing goodness, then a whole load of CC. It's the classic divide and conquer and it works well. then have something like a lascannon/ ML dread taking out vehicles and whirlwinds weakening infantry all thw while. It works for me


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## Someguy

I'm interested in checking out bikes as troops, with a bike captain. They seem to have a fair few good things going for them.

The first is as a weapons mount. It has become a lot harder to kill a tank with a lascannon in 5th, making a tactical squad with 5 guys and lascannon even less appealing. Melta weapons are good, but it's not easy to get infantry with melta weapons near tanks - and in any case you still have 4 guys doing nothing. Bikes can have multiple special weapons in the same unit, and get into range to fire them on their own.

The cost has come down quite substantially. The cost of 5 marines in a rhino is now pretty similar to 5 bikes. You don't get a tank to block LoS, but you get a lot more shootiness and your guys are tougher and faster.

Finally, flexibility. I like that these guys can move fast, don't die very easily and can fire at pretty decent ranges.


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## Vashtek

My problem with bikes is the ease in which they die to plasma. I guess turbo boost helps with some of this.

I keep turning back to thunder hammers/ storm shields. I think these are the only real answer to nob bikers, as well as providing a real assault team. 

Master of the forge	100

Dreadnought- plasma cannon, heavy flamer	125
Dreadnought- plasma cannon	115
Terminators (10) 2x lightning claws, 8x thunder hammer + storm shield	400

10xmarines: missile launcher, flamer	170
razorback- twin heavy bolter	40

10xmarines: lascannon, plasma gun	190
razorback- lascannon, twin plasma	75

Dreadnought- plasma cannon	115
Predator- autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons	85
Predator- autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons	85

The motf should really have a combi-melta. 

Weaknesses of this list: not many lascannons, less firepower than previous list, and you need to be careful with your troops. Also terminators vulnerable to lash...

Any thoughts? Could this list (or similar) do well at a GT?


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## Vashtek

Another list for your perusal... I was thinking about how Pedro makes assault termies really good by giving them all +1A...

Pedro	

Terminators (10) 2x ass cannons	
Terminators (10) 4x lightning claws, 6x thunder hammer + storm shield	

10xmarines: lascannon, plasma gun	

10xmarines: lascannon, melta	

5x Scouts: 4x sniper rifle, 1x missile launcher	

The list is very nice in killpoints terms... could it stand up to horde tactics? Could this list beat the big guys?

I think it's probably pretty good but probably fails spectacularly vs eldar. Not so many of them about any more though...


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## Katie Drake

Vashtek said:


> Another list for your perusal... I was thinking about how Pedro makes assault termies really good by giving them all +1A...
> 
> Pedro
> 
> Terminators (10) 2x ass cannons
> Terminators (10) 4x lightning claws, 6x thunder hammer + storm shield
> 
> 10xmarines: lascannon, plasma gun
> 
> 10xmarines: lascannon, melta
> 
> 5x Scouts: 4x sniper rifle, 1x missile launcher
> 
> The list is very nice in killpoints terms... could it stand up to horde tactics? Could this list beat the big guys?
> 
> I think it's probably pretty good but probably fails spectacularly vs eldar. Not so many of them about any more though...


I dunno about this one. It seems to rely on two units (that could, if they wanted, split into four) that aren't terribly mobile winning games.

As much as I love Pedro, I'm starting to wondering if Mr. Kantor isn't more a liability than anything, especially in lists without any Sternguard. _Hold the Line_ is a grand ability, but you also make all your units _Stubborn_ which is significantly worse in many ways than using Combat Tactics. Blech.


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## Someguy

I work to a theory that it's better to have your units do the things they do well rather than try to get them to do the things they do badly.

Marine tactical squads are not good at anti tank. I really can't see any value in a 5 man squad with a lascannon any more. More and more, I think that a plasma cannon is the superior tactical squad heavy weapon at the moment.

Plasma cannons are now a devastating weapon against a lot of the kinds of things that are a problem to kill. They can hit several targets, tend to wound easily and deny armour and FNP saves. They can't generally instant kill much and can't touch heavy tanks, but the chance of a lascannon actually killing a land raider or monolith is so small now that it seems necessary to seek an alternative.

I think that denying FNP is now a key point. Enemies may have armour, cover and invulnerable saves but they only get to use one of them. Then they get to use FNP if they have it as well. If you are shooting something like nob bikers or plague marines, removing FNP is the thing I would prioritise. If you can remove it by instant killing the target, so much the better.



Katie Drake said:


> As much as I love Pedro, I'm starting to wondering if Mr. Kantor isn't more a liability than anything, especially in lists without any Sternguard. _Hold the Line_ is a grand ability, but you also make all your units _Stubborn_ which is significantly worse in many ways than using Combat Tactics. Blech.


I'm completely with you on this. Pedro is great, sternguard are great, stubborn is a disaster. 

If you just lost a close combat the chances are you are going to lose next turn as well. Most of the time you won't want to stick around and die when you could run off and shoot the hell out of the enemy.


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## Katie Drake

I think you're onto a good point there, Someguy. I used to take meltaguns and lascannons in my Tactical Squads, but nowadays I don't see the point in spending more points on weapons that generally aren't going to do anything. Flamer and missile launcher for me, please (mostly because I play a Drop Pod army and I don't want to pay points for a heavy weapon that probably won't get to fire).


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## Son of mortarion

Katie Drake said:


> I think you're onto a good point there, Someguy. I used to take meltaguns and lascannons in my Tactical Squads, but nowadays I don't see the point in spending more points on weapons that generally aren't going to do anything. Flamer and missile launcher for me, please (mostly because I play a Drop Pod army and I don't want to pay points for a heavy weapon that probably won't get to fire).


This is the thinking that we should be doing. by thinking of our armies as a whole organism, and limiting how often a choice is made "in a vacuum' we can cut the fat. Why pay points for a unit, piece of gear, or ability that you might use one time in a game, unless it is truly needed. 

For example, why spend points on giving a vet sergeant with a power fist melta bombs? he has the fist for a reason, the melta bombs should go to an assault vet sergeant with a power sword, that way you get the tank hunting ability, and keep the init that the assault vet needs. Better yet, drop the melta bombs altogether and use ranged options that don't require the user to be so close to the target.


----------



## Flakey

Vashtek said:


> I keep turning back to thunder hammers/ storm shields. I think these are the only real answer to nob bikers


I am not sure how this is an answer to nob bikers though? nob bikers are too mobile for the assault terminators to catch, and no good ork player will charge them with their bikes until they been seriously weakened by shooting.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> I think you're onto a good point there, Someguy. I used to take meltaguns and lascannons in my Tactical Squads, but nowadays I don't see the point in spending more points on weapons that generally aren't going to do anything. Flamer and missile launcher for me, please (mostly because I play a Drop Pod army and I don't want to pay points for a heavy weapon that probably won't get to fire).


Your crazy, meltaguns are at their best in drop pod armies. You come crashing down, split into combat squad, melta squad roasts a vehicle while the other half lets rip at something else (Then you get gunned into the ground by rapid fire)

What are you gonna do when some crazy fool with 3 land raider redeemers gets into your deployment zone and starts raiding your fridge.


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## Cole Deschain

Power Fists work just fine if their tanks have gotten THAT close.


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## Someguy

Well I'd say the best thing would be to go with weapons that complement the bolters, which lascannons and meltas mostly don't. I think that plasma cannons do, as do flamers and plasma guns depending on where you are sending the marines. I'd certainly never not take at least a flamer and one of the free heavy weps.


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## Katie Drake

Gobbo said:


> Your crazy, meltaguns are at their best in drop pod armies. You come crashing down, split into combat squad, melta squad roasts a vehicle while the other half lets rip at something else


I'd agree, except for some reason or another I miss a _lot_ with single melta shots, so I've given up and moved to using weapons that don't require a roll to hit.  When I want to use meltas, I just strap combi-meltas to my Sternguard and let them deal with the armored targets up close. Good point, though!



> What are you gonna do when some crazy fool with 3 land raider redeemers gets into your deployment zone and starts raiding your fridge.


Kill his two units of Troops and laugh at him. :laugh:


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## beenburned

Katie Drake said:


> Kill his two units of Troops and laugh at him. :laugh:


(They're inside the redeemers)


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## Cole Deschain

I have to admit, I'm guilty of excessive Meltagun love- which, given the scarcity of TANKS around here, is a bit odd, to say the least.

And a flamer, which is FREE, has a comparable effective range and is far, far better at dealing with practically any sort of infantry.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> . Good point, though!




Oooh redemption... I almost feel like I know what im talking about again.

At the moment I'm only really keen on heavy flamers or twin linked flamers. And as for plasma cannons, I hate to say it but for the points they almost seem useless now. I run 3 dreads all with plasma cannons. Their good for drawing fire but never really seem to do much with the new scatter rules. You only usually hit one or two and when everyone and their aunties crossdressing stepbrother has a coversave, whats the point. You might aswell just strap on an assault cannon.


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## Katie Drake

beenburned said:


> (They're inside the redeemers)


Then they probably aren't capturing objectives. Besides, it's not too hard to cover a Land Raider's exits and make it go pop with a couple close range combi-melta shots.




> And a flamer, which is FREE, has a comparable effective range and is far, far better at dealing with practically any sort of infantry.


Yes, exactly. A meltagun can kill, at best, one model unless it's shooting at a vehicle which is carrying troops or explodes and kills something nearby. A flamer however easily gets a kill every time you fire it (since you only need to tag six or so models to bring down an MEQ and anything wimpier will burst into flames).



> And as for plasma cannons, I hate to say it but for the points they almost seem useless now. I run 3 dreads all with plasma cannons. Their good for drawing fire but never really seem to do much with the new scatter rules. You only usually hit one or two and when everyone and their aunties crossdressing stepbrother has a coversave, whats the point. You might aswell just strap on an assault cannon.


Hmm, have you tried using Dreadnoughts with both plasma cannons and missile launchers? If you fire a plasma cannon and frag missile you should be able to get a hit every now and again.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> Hmm, have you tried using Dreadnoughts with both plasma cannons and missile launchers? If you fire a plasma cannon and frag missile you should be able to get a hit every now and again.


I have done, but I prefer the close combat wep with a built in heavy flamer. Not only is it good for ork cooking but it gives any assault troops that come near my lines a headache. My dreads have killed enough pedros to make matching shoulder pads and codpieces out of his helmets for all 3 of them.

I have been playing alot of marine games lately. Maybe I should do some battle reports so you can all learn from my many mistakes.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Actually, I find blast markers _more_ deadly in 5th. The PC's in my tacs usually earn back the cost of the whole squad on their own (sit a marine and 5 of his closest freinds up on top of a building and plunck away at enemies, denying cover with true LoS (I can see over the low wall you are behind... so if gives you no protection))

As for AT, well, transports I usually pop with the 4ML dev squad I normally take, medium tnaks take a Lascannon... the heavy shit leaves me stumped (probbably gonna add some meltas soon)

as for tanks in my backfeild, thats my devastators, and the only special gear I give their Sergents is the signum (occaisionally), as I figure that if the devs are in CC, I've already fucked up pretty badly and the game will be over pretty soon anywys (80% of the time, thats true all the time)


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## gblai6

Maybe it was a lack of playtesting at the GT that saw these marines bite the big one. I've found now that I've decided to flex my marine muscles again after my last ork tourny that My list has slowly changed both from my 4th ed version to my 5th ed inital thoughts on the codex to the more streamlined one I'm running now.

My list centres on the Shrike and smacking in close combat style. However ever since I got the big guy I can't seem to crack it for a turn one roll. The only one I've gotten lately I had taken away by a steal the initiative roll (and this is from something like 10 or so games).

My playtest opponent has also gotten the scoop of a normally effective Shrike first turn bashing by keeping everything in reserve when I announce most of my army is infiltrating. Helps a lot.

So maybe we'll start to see the marines hit the big time again after some more playtesting in the near future. Aus's last big tourny (Orktoberfest) had a few marine armies in the top 10 so i don't think it's all doom and gloom for them (as if GW would ever let it be).


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## LordWaffles

If it's any consolation, Shrike himself is the reason most of my hqs now have power fists.

Shrike's a jerk.


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## Dano

As for the Dread wpns load out, I normally field an army with 2 dreads, and I've found that the assualt cannon, even with the 5th D3 rending reduction, is still an outstanding all round weapon - great against light and med Inf, and with rending a threat to all tanks. I'm with Gobbo on the other arm, Dnaught CC with a heavy flamer, especially with a DPed Dnaught has served me well on a couple of occasions.

I hear everyone's pain here though on the problems with marines in the 5th - my personla opinion, due in no small part to three things:
- seriously reducing the effectiveness of Chaps and Libs, old standbys in many lists
- reducing the tried and true Marine flexibility by tying heavy/aslt/special wpns to squad size (combat squading helps, in that you can still have a 5 man squad with a hvy wpn and aslt wpn, but then you've got this other 5 man squad left over when what you really need is an 8 or 10 man squad for assaults/massed bolter fire).
- getting rid of traits, which allowed you to specialize your army squad by squad (true grit, infitrate, furous assault, kit out tac squads with chaisnwords and pistols etc etc) in ways the special characters just can't make up for (not too mention it makes marine army's a lot less individualistic)

How to address this? Bit o' motherhood here, but with the addition of several new units (Stern/Vanguard) that are specialists and the limited ways to trick out Marines with leader's traits you need to be very careful about building your army and ensuring you have a clear role for each squad and buidl your army with a holistic point of view as to how each squad fits into the whole. I know, lots of generic philosohy, not much specifics.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Not even squads as a whole, but the army as a whole. to be able to do well at tournies, you need to be able to tackle cc and shooting, meq and horde. this means both a strong firebase _and_ a strong cc strike arm. There are a few good ways to pull this off, but I found that the Heavy Weapon halves of the Tactical squads, along wiht some devastators can hold your home objectives and shoot up hordes/incoming cc units well, and if you focus 2 or 3 assault weapon/tricked out sarge halves on one enemie, you get pretty good results. Add a few cc beasts (Vanguard, dreads, termies) or a Sternguard squad to support them/clear objectives for your 'strike arm' to take and hold, you get good results most of the time. but your amy has to act as a whole, prioritize by role, threat level, then strategic importance all of the enemies units to your own, and act so that the firebase takes care of tanks and cc beasts, then have your cc group do its shooting, the dedicated units take their targets ( preferably the opponents cc nasties), and follow through by having the other halves of the Tac squads hop onto their objectives/ run cleanup. always move/assault with/shoot with the tacs in the 'strike arm' last, so that they can get to the objectives with as many bodies intact as possible for holding purposes. MC/IC hunting should be saved for captains/Masters, relic blades are without a doubt the most brutal weapon for this for a long time, they wound on a 4+ minimum, hit on a 3+ mostly, and the retinues can take enough hammers/fists to make sure you take the big fuckers down. Chappies got nerfed, but are still a nasty boost to a squad with paired LC's, or any cc nasty really (as most of these have FC, so thats a bunch of I5 S5 power weapons re-olling hits... if claws they proceed to re-roll wounds... a norm of 4 attacks on the charge per model, 5-10 man groups... you do the math, most units die pretty damn quick from this, and you should be able to get the assault if you use transports and or use your firebase right (make opponent think twice about charging, for fear of being out in the open on the next turn for the firebases wrath (with Combat Tactics, this should be pretty well garunteed))).
The Librarian gets more to choose from, for fewer points, and has some nice support and/or solo offensive skills. once again, add him to the right squad and you can bring serious pain (Gate of infinity some sternguard into the enemies backfeild, or onto an objective when coupled w/Pedro, Quickening w/ Might of the Ancients, Vortex w/Gate, Vortex w/Null Zone... it doesnt take much work to make the Librariian (still a 3 wound model) a beast... or at least a massive pain in ANYONES side.)


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## Someguy

One thing I found this weekend was that land raiders are good.

I was in a doubles tourney using chaos, with a team mate using orks. We found that there was almost nothing we could do to stop a land raider if it moved fast, as we needed sixes to hit in CC and didn't pack enough meltas. Partly of course, this was our mistake, but actually it wouldn't be all that hard to target the stuff that could hurt your LR and then go to town.

In the end we won that game thanks to the LR not being a scoring unit. It was a take and hold game and we were able to take the other team's objective, but there was nothing we could do to get the LR off our own. Stupid obliterator managed to roll a 1 and 2 for penetration with its twin melta, then ate twin lascannon.

What I would say though was that the standard LR is only a minor problem for infantry armies. A redeemer would have been a massive problem and it's unlikely that we could have won against it.

Since then we have been discussing some of the ways we could make these things win games on a regular basis. One way would be to put a scoring unit in one and take it to the objective. This wouldn't always work, but lots of armies would actually struggle to get rid of you.


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## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> One thing I found this weekend was that land raiders are good.


Heheh. No, really?

Just kidding. It's true that Land Raiders weren't really worth their points during 3rd and 4th. I figure that both Reedemers and Crusaders would be brutal against mainly infantry armies, though the Reedemer would be extra brutal since it can cut through power armored infantry.


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## Someguy

Well ok, maybe not the most amazing discovery. :wink:

Still, quite odd to have a bunch of noise marines and lootas standing around an objective while a LR that they can't actually hurt drives round and round them, shooting them with a twin heavy bolter (to no real effect). As a tactic I think it could require a little work, but it might be the foundation of something good.

I think the redeemer is probably better than the crusader. It gets around the fact that everything is in cover and it tends to mean that stuff gets no save at all. With a multi melta it mounts basically the best weapon around for getting rid of other people's tanks.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Agreed, i have a feeling Eldar using the 'Eldar Squad of Death' (non-mechanized, for the most part), gun-line armies, and meq armies are at the greatest risk to this tactic (redeemer with some tacticals in it, coming straight up your arse). Seeing as i have a redeemer, and will get a game or two against a footslogger Eldar over Thanksgiving break, I will tell you guys how it went.


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## Gobbo

Their much harder to kill and deal with now they can only be popped on a 5/6 on a penetrating hit, but still a good 230 points. What would you guys put inside the land raider?? A big command squad with lightning claws and a chaplain and the white scars guy for furious charge? Or does he only get that when on a bike.

Would you really wanna be known as "One of those players who takes a land raider in 1500 points" though? 

*Hides the fact he owns two land raiders*


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## Someguy

Well those are good questions.

As far as taking LRs in 1500 point games go, I don't think the high unit cost is really a problem any more. Recently, some high-cost units have become good. Nobz bikers are probably the case in point here. It also lowers your KP count.

Oddly, I'm not sure it's a given that you put anything in the LR at all. You clearly don't want 800 points worth of stuff put down as a single model, and khan and friends aren't scoring. They will tend to eat a bait unit and then get lashed the hell away, shot, charged by a ton of stuff and generally messed around with. 

The era of uber cc units bouncing from one target to the next is over, in my view. Your opponent sees you coming, feeds you something, then wastes you. A preposterously-equipped command squad can be made very tough, but it isn't a scoring unit and is crippled against lash.

One option for inside the LR is a master of the forge and half a tactical squad. That could keep the thing moving about and make it score, with a few guys ready to jump out and add flamer death as required. The MoF is cheap and has a servo harness, so he can alternate between repairing your redeemer and dismantling enemy vehicles.


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## Lord Reevan

Crusader Is my favourite Variant really. To get it to it's full potential it has to be within 12" that means That there will be little cover in the way anyway. Plus the sheer amount of shots coming from it will make MEQs take a lot of saves.... 

Used with assault Terminators, one thunder hammer, 4 lightning claws, my BA set up, with a Chaplain in terminator armour is my main Killy unit. I head that up the field and wipe out any units that head for objectives. I have 2 rhinos behind it both with objective holding units, 2 assault squads flanking it so it doesn't get swamped often. It uses the divide and conquer style and it's effective. the crusader and terminators wipe the objective, backed up by the assault squads in case the terminators get bogged down, when the objective is wiped the tacticals disembark and hold the point, using the rhino as cover. the rest of my points is spent on usually a few heavy support choices such as a ML dev squad and a whirlwind, plus a few attack bikes... fast moving, specialised and very effective against nearly every army.... it's specialisation makes it the master of one but not a weaker jack of all trades even though it can unleash a large amount of fire....


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## Someguy

Three other troops units are available for marines to take, which are worth looking at. Sisters of battle, grey knights and =I= storm troopers.

Grey knights provide a decent option for holding objectives. Stick these guys in some area terrain and it is going to take some real effort to get them out of it, especially since they are difficult to target at long ranges and resistant to psychic attack (by which I mean lash). With storm bolters and psycannons they can put down some serious firepower and charging them really isn't a lot of fun for most people. They can also be used going forward, and are a good option to hitch a ride in either a rhino or land raider. I think I probably prefer the option of holding these guys back as base defence rather than charging off, but a smaller unit with incinerators would cause carnage in some enemies. Pricey as hell though at 325 for 10 guys with 2 psycannons.

I'm going to be trying some sisters at some point. A geared-up unit of these in a rhino costs about as much as a marine tactical squad, but swaps some of its toughness for acts of faith and better flamer weapons. Flamers and heavy flamers received a significant boost in 5th and the rhinos got tougher, so these may now be quite an option. They aren't fearless but they have a book of St. Lucius for *unmodified* LD, if they want it, which is like a sort of voluntary stubbornness. Unlike fearless units they therefore don't tend to take extra wounds if they lose in CC, and neither do your other units within 6" of the book. It may be an option to send these in a LR, but they would probably want to burn a lot of faith if they charged something and they don't have it.

ISTs are pretty bad individually. The only real reason you would take them is to get a 50 point scoring unit and maybe to pack a couple of meltas or plasma guns. On the other hand, they are a great bait unit and they do score, so if you want some guys to just sit it out inside your LR while it drives to an objective, these are your guys. I don't think I'll bother though.


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## Lord Reevan

Problem with that someguy, is that it's not making marines work. It's making grey knights or sisters work, with some help from marines...


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## Someguy

Well... more like the other way around but I take your point.

In my own case it's something I've been thinking of doing for some time anyway, as can be seen in my tortuously slow sisters WIP. It's not for everyone for sure, but if it's a big help then we should look at it.


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## Lord Reevan

it would be a good idea to have some ideas using allies but I think it'd best be made as a seperate thread. lots of pure marine players around that would probably prefer this thread to stay that way


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## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> it would be a good idea to have some ideas using allies but I think it'd best be made as a seperate thread. lots of pure marine players around that would probably prefer this thread to stay that way


I think this thread is generally about making Space Marines a tournament competitive army. That means that almost nothing is out of the question, including taking units from other armies as Allies. Besides, it's just talk. Nobody's forced to take Allies if they don't want to.


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## Johnathanswift

Speaking of land raider, an effective tounament army consists of either a librarian or a chapilan acompanied by 3 tac squads and two LR reddermers and a normal land raider for a total of 1500 points, it is somewhat vunerable to carnifexes and melta weapons, but a LR charging 12 inches and dismbarking a melta or plasma armed squad causes havoc, I placed second at a recent tournament with this list, losing to tyranids.


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## Dessel_Ordo

if those flamers are placed well, the list should do decent against the bugs.


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## Son of mortarion

Johnathanswift said:


> Speaking of land raider, an effective tounament army consists of either a librarian or a chapilan acompanied by 3 tac squads and two LR reddermers and a normal land raider for a total of 1500 points, it is somewhat vunerable to carnifexes and melta weapons, but a LR charging 12 inches and dismbarking a melta or plasma armed squad causes havoc, I placed second at a recent tournament with this list, losing to tyranids.


too pear shaped and vulnerable to lascannons. one Ig heavy weapons platoon can destroy half of your points in one turn, at a very reduced points cost.
If they roll a six on the chart, you will lose more than half of your force.


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## Lord Reevan

Katie Drake said:


> I think this thread is generally about making Space Marines a tournament competitive army. That means that almost nothing is out of the question, including taking units from other armies as Allies. Besides, it's just talk. Nobody's forced to take Allies if they don't want to.


Good point... Would allies include IG then?


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## Vashtek

Lord Reevan said:


> Good point... Would allies include IG then?


How can space marines take IG allies?

I think a reasonable plan might be, instead of land raider spam as outlined above, take a bunch of other vehicles. These can either be given cover by the redeemer or provide cover for it depending on the circumstances. 

My vague plan is 1 redeemer, 2 vindicators, 3 dreads with plascannons and heavy flamers. This is filled out by a master of the forge with combi melta, 2 tac squads with meltas and plascannons and a scout squad with combi-melta in a land speeder storm.

This is a pretty mobile assault force- the vindicators help with tank and stuff with 2+ saves whilst the dreads focus on stoppping assaults by flame or CC.

Somebody mentioned raiders being vulnerable to lascannons. This is no longer the case. Redeemers ignore virtually anything other than a destroyed result, and there is under a 3% chance that an IG lascannon will blow up a raider. You can halve this if it has cover.

Raiders do fail against dark eldar, some eldar and tau especially. That's why you need more than just land raiders in your 1500 points IMO.


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## Ferik

The main problem that I find with my Marine list (besides being weak with tactics on my part  ) is that most other armies are geared to take them out and Marines being an "balanced" army have to get in close to be effective (from what I have noticed) in the mean time the enemy has time to do its work for a turn or two and with specialized armies thats all they really need.

Now instead of focusing on Marines inherent weakness I am trying to find ways to bypass or circumvent the enemies advantage over Marines.

which I believe either Drop Pods are 1 answer but then that usually leave half your army to face the full of your opponents which is not a good idea IMO and then you are stuck foot slogging after wards which is also bad (though can be corrected with either Shrike or a Librarian & Gate of Infinity),
or to Outflank using Kor'Sarro Khan which I know is unreliable to a certian degree but if used correctly may actually work anyways here is my list and "theory"


Golden Legion 2000Pts

HQ 
Kor'Sarro Khan 
Command Squad 
Flamer
Company Champion
Rhino

Pedro Kantor 

TROOP 
10 Space Marines 
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Power Weapon 
Rhino

10 Space Marines 
Flamer 
Missile Launcher
Power Weapon & Terminator Honours
Rhino

10 Space Marines 
Meltagun 
Multi-Melta
Powerfist
Rhino

10 Space Marines 
Meltagun 
Multi-Melta
 Powerfist
Rhino

FAST 
1 Landspeeder
Multi-Melta

1 Landspeeder
Multi-Melta

1 Landspeeder
Multi-Melta

ELITE 
1 Dreadnaught 
Lascannon

1 Dreadnaught 
Lascannon

1 Dreadnaught 
Lascannon

Ok so I figure that everything that is not out flanking is put in reserve, this well help for the initial few turns to prevent those 1st or 2nd turn assaults leaving the particular army flat footed deepstriking armies are also less effective and shooty armies have no targets.

Now when your units do come in if they don't have the proper support from the list then keep them out of sight until it comes in hopefully on the same side especially for the Flankers which in this case consist of the 4 Tac squads
and the Command squad all of which should try and stay close to Kantor
when it comes to assaults.

Now when the Dreadnaughts come in they are comming in on regular board edge and will attempt to pick off enemy vehicles from a distance and staying behind cover to attempt to have Hull Down.

The Speeders will attempt to Shock Attack enemy vehicles after Deep Striking in or if facing Monsterious creatures they will deploy normally by reserve and support the Dreads or Turbo boost and support the other squads in later turns.

Anyways thats my idea on this, what do you all think? any suggestions and critique are welcome

Thanks


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## Someguy

A couple of thoughts on that list Ferik.

Firstly, multi meltas just can't be given to infantry in my view. Just a terrible gun for all kinds of reasons that only gets to fire to full effect at vehicles that are within 12" of you at the start of your turn. When is the most frequent time that happens? When an enemy transport has dropped off some guys and you are already dead. Melta guns are fine. I like plasma cannons for infantry heavy weps because they work with the bolters to some extent. On land speeders, multi meltas are ok.

I don't see how you get your command squad into combat. A rhino kind of works, but they can't charge out of it if it moves. You could give them a land raider but then they don't get to outflank because it's not a dedicated transport.

Vaguely on that subject, you could have a LR outflank if bought as a dedicated transport for a terminator squad of some kind. That could be quite entertaining.

I found a fairly silly combo, more or less by mistake, which is lysander and grey knights. I've been looking again at Lysander because his ability to land strength 10 hits on stuff and get +1 on vehicle damage tables is not replicated anywhere else. He's probably the single best thing at killing monoliths in the game. Unlike most ICs in a squad, he isn't all that worried about being picked out by enemies as he is extremely tough.

The GKs work with him because they are quite nasty in CC as well, and a scoring unit. Between them they can charge most stuff. Amusingly, and not very significantly, lysander also lets them all reroll to hit with their storm bolters.


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## Vashtek

Putting tactical marines into reserve is not the answer. If you do it, the opponent has the option to do it too (meaning you have to win the roll and choose to go second) and you are subject to the whims of dice bringing your guys on where you want and at the right time. Eldar can do this cos they have autarchs. A bunch of tactical marines does not win tournaments (or even come close).


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## Ferik

I just figured the Command squad would move up behind terrian if nothing is near by and or move up and pop smoke until next turn then dissembark and assault (though admitably not the best plan I admit) and yes the expression on a persons face when you say your Landraider of Assault Termies is flanking is just priceless I just have a hard time justifying the points cost since I tend to miss use them I guess...

as for the multi-meltas I figured they were free and would have the m in range when I flank is all..

I have also tossed around the idea of Grey Knights as well unfortunantly they also fall into my problem with the Termies they are just sooo pricey

and a thought on the reserve problem is that I can use Tigarius to reroll on it and make it a little more reliable, though unfortunantly he is not as survivable as the other characters especially without a base invul save.

anyways thats my speal on that any other suggestions?


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## Dessel_Ordo

I have always figured Grey Knights and Terminators are just some of those units where you get what you pay for, if used propperly, either can be devastating. 

To use tigirius, you would have to lose Pedro, but I didnt really see what you were getting from him anyhoo, as you dont have any Sternguard.

I do have a designated IC proxy model... I'm gonna have to try that, flanking with my Redeemer and its termies... bwahahahahaha

I was thinking maybe a bikes/Preds list, with a MoF on a bike w/a CB for the 2nd HQ may be viable... thoughts?


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## sooch

HQ

Pedro Kantor 175pts
Librarian (Null Zone, The Avenger/Machine Curse)

Scoring

5 Sternguard (3 Combi-plasmas, 2 Combi-flamers, Lascannon Razorback) 225pts
5 Sternguard (3 Combi-plasmas, 2 Combi-flamers, Lascannon Razorback) 225pts 
5 Sternguard (3 Combi-plasmas, 2 Combi-flamers, Lascannon Razorback) 225pts

5 Tactical Marines (Meltabomb, Lascannon Razorback) 170pts
5 Tactical Marines (Meltabomb, Lascannon Razorback) 170pts
5 Tactical Marines (Meltabomb, Lascannon Razorback) 170pts

Fast Attack

Attack Bike (Multi-melta) 50pts
Attack Bike (Multi-melta) 50pts

Heavy Support

Whirlwind 85pts
Whirlwind 85pts
Vindicator 115pts


1850pts

Basically you form a razorback wall, with all of them tilted at an angle to give each other cover saves, and you hide the WWs behind, as well as the vindi (at least until enemies come within 24" or disembark out of transports). MM attack bikes strafe armor. Libby casts null zone in case of stuff like TH/SS terminators while i rapid fire plasmas. Low model count, yes, but high vehicle count and everything in the army that isn't heavy support scores.


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## Katie Drake

Okay, looking at the main competition in the topmost levels of the last couple GTs, this is what I've managed to come up with using some of the advice in this thread. Keep in mind that I'm not a GT levelplayer (yet). Oh, and I had to include Kantor because Pedro has my vote!

*HQ*

*Pedro Kantor*
Pts: 175

*TROOPS*

*Tactical Squad*
Veteran Sergeant
- Bolt pistol
- Power weapon
9 Tactical Marines
- 7 bolters
- 1 flamer
- 1 plasma cannon
Razorback
- Lascannon and twin linked plasma guns
Pts: 265

*Tactical Squad*
Veteran Sergeant
- Bolt pistol
- Power weapon
9 Tactical Marines
- 7 bolters
- 1 flamer
- 1 plasma cannon
Razorback
- Lascannon and twin linked plasma guns
Pts: 265

*ELITES*

*Sternguard Veterans*
Veteran Sergeant
- Combi-meltagun
- Power fist
9 Sternguard Veterans
- 4 with combi-meltas
- 5 with combi-flamers
Drop Pod
Pts: 360

*Ironclad Dreadnought*
- Heavy flamer
- Meltagun
Drop Pod
- Locator Beacon
Pts: 210

*HEAVY SUPPORT*

*Predator Annihilator*
- Twin-linked lascannon
- Lascannon sponsons
- Hunter Killer missile (I had points to throw around. It was either this or dozer blades on the Razorbacks).
Pts: 175

*Vindicator*
- Siege Shield
Pts: 125

*Vindicator*
- Siege Shield
Pts: 125

Total: 1,700/1,700

Basically the plan is to drop the Dreadnought in early to fry Ork mobs with the heavy flamer, blast tanks with the meltagun and generally rampage about and draw fire and attention away from the other more vulnerable parts of the list (like the Razorbacks who don't have a very thick AV). The Troops will probably split into Combat Squads against those dirty Lash armies to prevent entire units from being eaten alive at a time. One half will hang back and shoot stuff with their plasma cannon while the other will cower inside the Razorback until they can get close enough to flame things, hopefully supported by the twin-linked plasma guns on the Razor's turret.

The Sternguard are expensive, yes, but I'm yet to fail with this configuration. Stick Kantor into the half with the combi-flamers (since they split into Combat Squads the turn they _Deep Strike_) and go after stuff like Lootas with the flamers and/or dragonfire bolts and tank bust with the combi-melta half.

The Vindicators find things like Nob Bikers and make them dead as fast as (super)humanly possible. Siege Shields are there because I personally have terrible luck with dangerous terrain checks with vehicles. Lastly, the Predator... well, figure it out. It shoots stuff. The Hunter Killer is handy for that extra shot should the Predator remain static and is an awesome way to shoot those stupid Nob Bikers and deny them their FNP save.

Hopefully this helps somebody.

Katie D


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## the cabbage

Does anybody else find it bizarre that a squad of ten can take a six seater transport?


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## Someguy

I think that list looks pretty interesting Katie. Pedro probably works and two drop pods are a viable option as you can drop one or the other depending on how you feel about things on turn one.

I think the jury is still out on Pedro. On one level, any kind of scoring unit is valuable, so he's great. On the other, I don't particularly like his gear loadout and stubborn is annoying. If nothing else, his strike gives people something to think about.

The one thing I really don't like is the predator. Either save points and get a couple of razorbacks (ok, no more troops to buy them for...) or spend some and get a land raider. The uses for lascannons have been greatly reduced in 5th in my opinion.

With the sternguard, consider putting some meltas and some flamers with each half. Sometimes your opponent has multiple tanks in one place and being able to melt two of them at once is great, while three flamer templates and some hellfire rounds tend to be more than enough to clear out light troops from most cover. I think there's a case for plasma as well, because it's great for putting wounds on nid MCs.

I think that learning to use drop pods properly may be the key to success. All deep striking marines has kind of been shown to fail, but limited strikes may be effective. After all, it is enough to contest one objective and claim another in some games.

By the way, I think you would get on fine at a GT. It really isn't so different to normal gaming.


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## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> I think that list looks pretty interesting Katie. Pedro probably works and two drop pods are a viable option as you can drop one or the other depending on how you feel about things on turn one.


Yep, that's the plan.



> I think the jury is still out on Pedro. On one level, any kind of scoring unit is valuable, so he's great. On the other, I don't particularly like his gear loadout and stubborn is annoying. If nothing else, his strike gives people something to think about.


Too true. Damn him and his Stubborn. To be honest though, I think it's worthwhile to make Sternguard scoring. All too often do I see Marine lists with three or more Tactical Squads to make sure that there's enough Scoring units in the list. As many of us will attest to however, Tactical Squads just aren't where it's at anymore, so I took as few of them as possible and made sure that my third Scoring unit was actually useful.



> The one thing I really don't like is the predator. Either save points and get a couple of razorbacks (ok, no more troops to buy them for...) or spend some and get a land raider. The uses for lascannons have been greatly reduced in 5th in my opinion.


I agree that the Predator is more or less the weak link in the list, but the points needed to upgrade it to a Land Raider is just too much for this list to handle. I'd need to downgrade both Razorbacks or something which isn't something I'm prepared to do. The plasma shots are simply too useful at dealing with the units that are causing the most problems nowadays (Daemon Princes, Nob Bikers, Plague Marines, etc). I guess I could change the Ironclad over to a normal Dreadnought, but the high AV of the Ironclad will help ensure that it lasts for more than a turn.



> With the sternguard, consider putting some meltas and some flamers with each half. Sometimes your opponent has multiple tanks in one place and being able to melt two of them at once is great, while three flamer templates and some hellfire rounds tend to be more than enough to clear out light troops from most cover. I think there's a case for plasma as well, because it's great for putting wounds on nid MCs.


Normally I'd agree, but I'm finding that the absolute best way to deal with those huge Ork mobs is to hit them with five flame templates at once. I've even managed to kill 10 Plaguebearers in one go doing this. Not to mention that five flamers will seriously put a dent in Chaos Marine squads and such.



> I think that learning to use drop pods properly may be the key to success. All deep striking marines has kind of been shown to fail, but limited strikes may be effective. After all, it is enough to contest one objective and claim another in some games.


Yep, that's right. I tried a full out Drop Pod list trusting in my experience playing Daemons to help me overcome the weaknesses of the list but it just isn't quite enough. Instead it seemed right to go with a slightly more conservative playstyle and roll with Razorbacks instead of trying to land on my opponent's head.



> By the way, I think you would get on fine at a GT. It really isn't so different to normal gaming.


Thanks! :good: I've done local tournaments, but nothing any bigger than that.


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## hurt-wm

i disagree on the drop pod list being broken. And since when have people lost faith in tactical squads? I use three of them (at the least) in every game i play, they are rock solid and cheap compaired to most marine choices. Theres nothing like clearing one edge of the board with two or three tactical squads deep striking in pods, and it usually works for me.


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## Someguy

About time I tried a list then. It's debatable whether this list even belongs here as it isn't pure marines, but it contains stuff I like. It's very much a WIP list.

Lysander. 200

DH Inquisitor Lord with psychic hood and 3 mystics. 83.

10 man tactical squad with plasma gun and plasma cannon. 185.

10 man tactical squad with flamer, combi flamer and plasma cannon. 185.
Rhino. 35.

5 scouts with power fist, heavy bolter and 4 sniper rifles (including the sergeant). 110

10 Grey knights (including Justicar) with 2 psycannons. Throw in a targetter. 326 (ouch).

10 Sisters of battle with flamer, heavy flamer and vet with combi-flamer and book. 157
Rhino with extra armour and smoke. 58

Edit: Land speeder storm with heavy flamer (thanks for reminding me Vashtek). 60

Whirlwind. 85

Redeemer with extra armour and multi melta. 265

Total is 1750 points (or 1749 or something, in which case the =I= can have a bolt pistol). The next event I'm likely to be going to is a 1750 point singles tourney, so this army could be an option.

Part of the reason why I have one of many different units is that I'd like to try out different stuff.

Ok going down the list with excuses for taking each unit:

Lysander is badass. I think I need somebody badass enough to charge against a monolith or something and beat it into scrap, and it's nice to have a guy who hits stuff in cc as hard as a railgun. An ironclad dread in a drop pod may be an alternative though, if I could find some spare points somehow, so giving this one some thought. Sometimes he can ride in the redeemer with the GKs, sometimes he can deploy with them in a ruin with a 3+ cover save (which he grants). "Get us out of here" he can say.

The DH inquisitor lord is there to counter lash and have his friends shoot daemons or drop pods down. He's an HQ instead of elite so that I have the option to deploy him in dawn of war. In combination with the GK squad he makes it extremely difficult for daemons to deep strike in against him, as they will take a heavy toll from each and every squad that lands nearby.

Instead of both of these guys I could just take something like a basic librarian and just not deploy vs daemons. I'll see what that option would look like. Libby could have null zone as well. The presence of the =I= goes some way to explain why my army actually exists in one place though... In any case, against daemons I like the idea that I can actually deploy some stuff as it will let me get moving towards my objectives, whatever they may be, but maybe I can afford to take a lesser elite inquisitor and a librarian.

I have two tactical squads and well... I still don't really know what they are for. I suppose I could take a second squad of scouts and more sisters, or something like that, and maybe I'd have a better army. I don't know to be honest.

In principle, one and a half of them stay back and shoot stuff while the other goes forward in its rhino and lights stuff on fire. In practice I seem to be getting two plasma cannons and a couple of flamers for damn near 400 points, which surely sucks. Still, they are scoring units that I can spread around and their shooting is sufficient to make people pay attention.

By the way, I have gone for rhinos rather than razorbacks for a reason. Sometimes the safest thing is to stick a unit in a rhino and have them fire their plasma cannon out of the top, rather than have them lashed away from their objective and/or eaten by hormagaunts/devourers. Again though, I find the image of a tactical squad hiding inside a rhino less than inspiring, and it probably isn't that great as a game plan.

Next up the scouts, maybe in the storm. I do like these guys and I find them far more versatile than tactical squads. I just can't really justify using very many of them. Five let me do fun things like charge eldar skimmers on turn one and put power fist and krak attacks on their rear armour before they move off - or just chill out in a ruin with a 3+ cover save if they prefer. I don't think they lose a lot for taking the sniper rifles as they will tend to be charging stuff that their ordinary CC attacks aren't much use against. They still have bolt pistols, apart from the sergeant. It may be worth giving the sergeant a combi-wep of some kind. The hvy bolter seems to combo well with the sniper rifles.

The storm makes this possible, and also starts hitting stuff with its heavy flamer right from the get go, which is cool. I really think this thing is a steal for its price and I'm pretty happy with the conversion I've done for mine.

The GKs are another unit that look pretty handy but which I'm unsure about. They seem equally happy going forward in the redeemer or hanging back in some ruins and look like they work well against both MEQs and hordes. They can even shoot up light vehicles, and anything with rear armour 10 is going to die if they get to charge it. 32.5 points is a lot for a MEQ wound though.

The sisters burn things. Most units they hit with their 3 templates and 14 bolter shots will suffer, especially since I'll probably make them rend. They seem a bit one-shot though. Against hordes they might stay in their rhino some of the time and just drive around burning stuff, or maybe right through and on to an objective. Or maybe that's massive wishful thinking and some lootas will see them.

The whirlwind is there to threaten hordes, and also because I've seen a couple of games where people have put an objective on their base line behind a hill, then left a tiny troops unit to guard it. This thing should be able to make their lives less comfortable.

The redeemer is there because it's awesome. The only way to travel, so long as you don't meet too many lance weapons and meltas.

Ok, so in the process of writing that I've had some more thoughts and I'm going off to think some more. Comments welcome of course.


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## Lord Reevan

Not a bad list and I would like to play against it as it seems to have every basis covered. The only thing I see wrong is that it's relying on the non marine units and that's not making marines work then.... Suppose I'm just weird that way....


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## Someguy

Well it's a very reasonable point.

By taking non-marine troops I'm effectively conceding that I don't know how to make marine troops work. I can't say I'm happy about that but I still don't know what to do about it.


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## Vashtek

Someguy said:


> About time I tried a list then. It's debatable whether this list even belongs here as it isn't pure marines, but it contains stuff I like. It's very much a WIP list.
> 
> Lysander. 200
> 
> DH Inquisitor Lord with psychic hood and 3 mystics. 83.
> 
> 10 man tactical squad with plasma gun and plasma cannon. 185.
> 
> 10 man tactical squad with flamer, combi flamer and plasma cannon. 185.
> Rhino. 35.
> 
> 5 scouts with power fist, heavy bolter and 4 sniper rifles (including the sergeant). 110
> 
> 10 Grey knights (including Justicar) with 2 psycannons. Throw in a targetter. 326 (ouch).
> 
> 10 Sisters of battle with flamer, heavy flamer and vet with combi-flamer and book. 157
> Rhino with extra armour and smoke. 58
> 
> Whirlwind. 85
> 
> Redeemer with extra armour and multi melta. 265


I think you missed off the land speeder storm with heavy flamer. Points work out fine though.

Can't you save some points by buying the marines a rhino instead of the SoB? I picture the SoB in the redeemer in most games, with the knights hanging back shooting stuff. 

Seems a fun list anyway. The lord + mystics seem answer to a bunch of stuff... I'm tempted to get a squad just so I can drop vindicator templates on those pesky daemons :bye:


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## Someguy

I actually think the sisters need their rhino. They can shoot flamers from the top of it and stuff. The ability to burn stuf up from inside a fast-moving vehicle that the enemy needs a 6 to hit in cc can be valuable vs a horde, and they would have to get out of the LR to shoot.

Also, I feel like a LR is somewhat wasted on SoBs to be honest. They don't usually charge anyway, they get out and fire their rapid fire bolters at stuff.

However something I am looking at is whether it works to swap the tactical squad without the rhino for a second squad of GKs. I'd have to drop the whirlwind to do this, and one or two other toys probably, but then I would have a unit that naturally lived in the redeemer and actually had a job to do - unlike the second tactical squad.

I am somewhat concerned about my ability to kill enemy tanks - or lack thereof. I seem reasonably able to kill single vehicles and light stuff should feel a bit worried, but I wouldn't want to come up against three monoliths or poor old Lysander is just going to be too busy.

The inquisitor costs rather a lot of points for a unit with three laspistols and a bolt pistol. However, I think that 83 points worth of pure metagame could well be worth it if lots of people are taking Daemons, Lash (chaos I mean) and Eldar. There are rather a lot of good psychic powers kicking around these days and they are going into serious armies, so something has to be done.

I suppose I should get models for them, though they will spend a very large amount of their time inside a transport vehicle or hiding behind something.


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## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> The inquisitor costs rather a lot of points for a unit with three laspistols and a bolt pistol. However, I think that 83 points worth of pure metagame could well be worth it if lots of people are taking Daemons, Lash (chaos I mean) and Eldar. There are rather a lot of good psychic powers kicking around these days and they are going into serious armies, so something has to be done.


Just get a Grey Knight Brother Captain with a psychic hood for a grand total of 81 points. True he can't fit into a Rhino, but if you're going to be running a Redeemer he can just squeeze his fat terminator armored ass in there.


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## Someguy

Well he's there for the mystics as well as the psychic hood to be honest. I really want to be able to drive daemons away from me. The average roll from the 4d6 is 14", but the daemon player may not want to risk deploying nearby incase he scatters into range or I roll high. This should prevent the stupid flamer thing from hitting me much at all, and can potentially kill rather a lot of stuff.

It also works on drop pods, deep striking obliterators, terminators and even monoliths, if you have a unit that you think can shoot a monolith dead. You roll for *every* unit that enters play and you fire 10 grey knights with a couple of psycannons at it, or maybe a redeemer, or who knows what.

What I do need is some kind of shooting anti-tank. Just once it would be great to shoot down a monolith as it deployed.


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## Johnathanswift

In essence what I see as the problem most Marines face (admittedly I have not been to any GT)is that they make two principal mistakes, the first being too few troops, at a 1500 point battle you really should have three full tactical squads at the minimum, your expenditure in troops should be between one half to two thirds of your total points expenditure. the second major mistake is investing too many points in special units (that is the main problem with my Land Raider list). If you really want to go to the extream there is away of spending 750 points on a single Vanguard Vet squad, while the mistake is often not this large, HQ that are too tooled up are a mistake I see frequently. Part of the problem is also the lack of support for the tac squads, while a tactical squad fares ok in both assault and defense, it is not as good as a specilized unit, thus it requires support, most of the armies I have seen rather than, say, using their land speeders to screen the advance of their rihnos while strafing the enemies battleline send them out unsupported where they get shot to peices.


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## Katie Drake

Johnathanswift said:


> In essence what I see as the problem most Marines face (admittedly I have not been to any GT)is that they make two principal mistakes, the first being too few troops, at a 1500 point battle you really should have three full tactical squads at the minimum, your expenditure in troops should be between one half to two thirds of your total points expenditure. the second major mistake is investing too many points in special units (that is the main problem with my Land Raider list). If you really want to go to the extream there is away of spending 750 points on a single Vanguard Vet squad, while the mistake is often not this large, HQ that are too tooled up are a mistake I see frequently. Part of the problem is also the lack of support for the tac squads, while a tactical squad fares ok in both assault and defense, it is not as good as a specilized unit, thus it requires support, most of the armies I have seen rather than, say, using their land speeders to screen the advance of their rihnos while strafing the enemies battleline send them out unsupported where they get shot to peices.


Unfortunately, I think it's this kind of thinking that's getting Marine players destroyed. I just don't think that Tactical Squads are that good, even in large numbers. Scouts really aren't that much better, if at all. I'm thinking that Marine lists should take two Tactical Squads at full strength with Razorbacks (because they're awesome transports) and spend the rest of their points on units that can actually _do_ something.

Now, this isn't to say that I think lists with minimal Troops and tons of Land Raiders, Vanguard and all are going to win tons of games and are the best choice. I just don't feel that our Troops are as cost-effective as they used to be.


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## Gobbo

Yeah I agree with katie, depsite her being a weener. Tactical squads are kinda suckish. You have to pay alot of points, get 1 heavy weapon and one special weapon. And scouts are even worse. Theres no real point taking them unless you want to either A first turn charge or B just stand there looking silly. Sure you can give them the lovely cloaks, but yeah then their pretty much the same price as marines.

To be honest, I don't think theres really much marines can do to compete with ork lists or double lash lists.


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## Katie Drake

Gobbo said:


> Yeah I agree with katie, depsite her being a weener. Tactical squads are kinda suckish. You have to pay alot of points, get 1 heavy weapon and one special weapon. And scouts are even worse. Theres no real point taking them unless you want to either A first turn charge or B just stand there looking silly. Sure you can give them the lovely cloaks, but yeah then their pretty much the same price as marines.
> 
> To be honest, I don't think theres really much marines can do to compete with ork lists or double lash lists.


I'm a wiener? At least I'm not giving up on the Marines. :taunt: Quitting wiener.


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## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> I'm a wiener? At least I'm not giving up on the Marines. :taunt: Quitting wiener.


Psht I'm not done just yet, I can't stand the thought of jezlad being right all along, imagine what that will do to his ego. And I called you a weener not a wiener, it's a completely different thing. And what marine list are you using at the moment? Watch my sig for an upcoming loss to orks


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## Katie Drake

Gobbo said:


> Psht I'm not done just yet, I can't stand the thought of jezlad being right all along, imagine what that will do to his ego. And I called you a weener not a wiener, it's a completely different thing. And what marine list are you using at the moment? Watch my sig for an upcoming loss to orks


I've been experimenting with all kinds of things. I had a list with Pedro, Tigurius, 2 Tactical Squads in Pods, 2 Sternguard units in Drop Pods and a Dreadnought (yes, in a pod). I tried a triple Predator list with a bunch of Razorbacks. I haven't been met with any resounding failures yet, but I'm yet to pull off any huge wins, either.


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## Ferik

Dessel_Ordo said:


> I have always figured Grey Knights and Terminators are just some of those units where you get what you pay for, if used propperly, either can be devastating.
> 
> To use tigirius, you would have to lose Pedro, but I didnt really see what you were getting from him anyhoo, as you dont have any Sternguard.
> 
> I do have a designated IC proxy model... I'm gonna have to try that, flanking with my Redeemer and its termies... bwahahahahaha
> 
> I was thinking maybe a bikes/Preds list, with a MoF on a bike w/a CB for the 2nd HQ may be viable... thoughts?


Pedro was only there for the extra attacks is all wich in hind sight is paying too much for one ability so may go Tigarius and try a unit of Termies as well


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## Ferik

[/QUOTE]The DH inquisitor lord is there to counter lash and have his friends shoot daemons or drop pods down. He's an HQ instead of elite so that I have the option to deploy him in dawn of war. In combination with the GK squad he makes it extremely difficult for daemons to deep strike in against him, as they will take a heavy toll from each and every squad that lands nearby.[/QUOTE]

You could just use a GK Justicar with psychic hood and save an HQ choice as well. 
Also on a side note I've heard that Vulkan with Sisters with Flamers can also be nasty.
Just my two cents though..


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## Someguy

Ferik said:


> You could just use a GK Justicar with psychic hood and save an HQ choice as well.


No, let me explain again. The Justicar does not come with mystics. Half the reason the =I= is there is because of them. I am not spending 83 points on a psychic hood.



Ferik said:


> Also on a side note I've heard that Vulkan with Sisters with Flamers can also be nasty.


Yes, Vulcan does work quite well with sisters, making their flamer and melta weapons twin linked. However to be honest I'm not all that impressed by the guy himself and I only have one sisters unit anyway. Vulcan is quite good but he isn't as rock solid as Lysander. Lysander is in my list so that I have somebody to instant kill warbosses, knock monoliths over and stuff. Strength 10 hits with +1 on vehicle damage tables are very valuable, especially in a guy who can't be instant killed himself.


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## Ferik

Also on a side note we should keep in mind what makes the other list work so well, I have noticed that many of them are fairly specialized and relitively cheap as well and at this point Deamons and Orks are the extream case in this matter seeing as both of their troop choices are really cheap and super effiecent at what they do and then "spam" it as of right now are the main stay of most tournaments.

So we need to look at what we have that compares now which really isn't much IMO and how to get the most out of it.

Unfortunantly most of our uber stuff is uber expensive Landraiders (though a little cheaper now), Vanguard, Sternguard, Terminators, Legion of the Damned and as such cannot be effectivly "spamed".

Then we have our old standbys that have mostly been reduced in cost such as Marines, Rhinos, Scouts, Razorback, Dreadnaught, speeders Assault squads, bike squads, vindicator and predator but the downside is their upgradibilty and versitility have been brought down a bit also most of these options are only availible in small amounts and so cannot be used in large numbers especially veicles which are more susceptible to anti-tank and most "spamed" units are infiltry based or wound models.

The only major advantage we seem to have are the new characters but even then most of them are not as effective as we would like to believe and would only be useful if they could be used in conjunction with one anouther which we can't.

Anyways I'm going to try some different configurations and try and figure this out since there has to be a way to get Marines to work really well since I am just not seeing it myself... perhaps we should look at what made them so good before and try to bring Marines back to their former glory.

Perhaps Calgar and Sicarius would work well somehow..?

Well I'll leave it at that.


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## Ferik

Just thought I would mention the Justicar since you were already running a GK unit and it would be a nice throw in to save some points but I to was considering the Inquisitor for the same purpose though I also had a Chimera with Heavy Flamers to throw any number of my other units in as well.

Also not too fond of Vulkan myself but seems to be the flavor of the month so thought I would mention it.

Oh and sorry for repeating Katie D's suggestion didn't notice it till after I posted :mrgreen:


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## Someguy

If I just wanted the psychic hood then it would be a good plan. It would only be LD9 though, which cuts down its chances quite a bit, but it would be some protection. Mystics are good though.

In terms of the problem we have to get around I think it's really quite simple: Troops. We get tactical and scout squads, neither of which really excels at anything. Other people get stuff like zerkers, plague marines, horrors, boyz mobs and nob bikers. Those are all units that you can spam and get a truly effective army out of it. By doing that, Chaos, daemon and ork players are able to play to their strengths while marine players are trying to compensate for their weaknesses.

I think it's kind of a case of wishful thinking on GW's part. They wanted the game to be about infantry fighting each other so they force marines to take tactical squads and prevent the 6 man las/plas combo (which was boring as hell to be fair). However, they replace it with nothing and they don't change the environment that marines are up against (the other lists). Tactical squads are over-priced and armed with the wrong weapons, plus paying for a vet sergeant they don't need. If redeemers and terminators were still scoring units we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

All armies have weak units, it's just that we are forced to take ours.


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## Lord Reevan

Tactical squads should never be thrown into the front lines in a GT nowadays. anything the enemy has in his front lines will destroy them. That's why I like my land raider list mentioned earlier(or in the other thread by accident) it has my killy units of termintors and assault squads, often with a chaplain in the terminator squad( for generic, not using characters) being followed by rhinos with tactical squads that are designed to hold objectives, with weaponry that ghelps them such as all plasma. Raider wipes the objective and surrounding area of enemies, tatical squad holds that area then while the convoy moves on and drops off another tac squad on a recently wiped objective.

Tactical squads should not be used for general combat in uber competitive games. Maybe vs. hordes where mass of fire will win out but not much else.... Just my thoughts o it anyway.... Oh and by the way how many points is an average tournament game? I might make a list soon


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## Someguy

Tournaments tend to be in the region of 1500-2000 points. UKGTs are 1500, I think US ones something like 1750 or 1850.


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## Ferik

Someguy said:


> If I just wanted the psychic hood then it would be a good plan. It would only be LD9 though, which cuts down its chances quite a bit, but it would be some protection. Mystics are good though.
> 
> In a Termie squad you would have LD 10 but I do agree getting those free shotsa in is soo much better and to help support that maybe a Landspeeder Storm to mess with them a bit more?
> 
> In terms of the problem we have to get around I think it's really quite simple: Troops. We get tactical and scout squads, neither of which really excels at anything. Other people get stuff like zerkers, plague marines, horrors, boyz mobs and nob bikers. Those are all units that you can spam and get a truly effective army out of it. By doing that, Chaos, daemon and ork players are able to play to their strengths while marine players are trying to compensate for their weaknesses.
> 
> No arguments there.
> 
> I think it's kind of a case of wishful thinking on GW's part. They wanted the game to be about infantry fighting each other so they force marines to take tactical squads and prevent the 6 man las/plas combo (which was boring as hell to be fair). However, they replace it with nothing and they don't change the environment that marines are up against (the other lists). Tactical squads are over-priced and armed with the wrong weapons, plus paying for a vet sergeant they don't need. If redeemers and terminators were still scoring units we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> The usual overcompensating on GW's again (roll eyes and sigh) I guess they don't want to break the trend.
> 
> All armies have weak units, it's just that we are forced to take ours.


yeah I agree with that as well and when I think about it it may not matter what type of list a Marine player runs it ends up comming down to tactics and outsmarting an overconfident player... somehow.

We deffinantly need to brainstorm on some new viable tactics to help out beligured Marine players any ideas?


----------



## Ferik

Here is anouther take on my previous list I hope its a little more viable.
What do you all think?





HQ 
Kor'Sarro Khan 
Moondrakken
Command Squad 
(3) Meltaguns
Company Champion
Bikes

Chief Librarian Tigarius 

TROOP 
8 Space Marine Bikes 
Power Weapon & Terminator Honours
(2) Flamers
Attack Bike W Multi-Melta

8 Space Marine Bikes 
Powerfist & Terminator Honours
(2) Meltaguns
Attack Bike W Multi-Melta

FAST 
1 Landspeeder 
Multi-Melta

1 Landspeeder 
Multi-Melta

1 Landspeeder 
Multi-Melta


ELITE 
7 Assault Terminators 
Thunderhammers
Landraider Crusader

pretty much the same tactics as the previous post as well.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

I think it would work great against MEQ's, mechanized and anti-Meq armies... but it fails pretty hard against hordes, there are no real high hate of fire weapons,m save the assault cannons on the Speeders and the Crusader, and with only 2 templates, and ork horde would run it over pretty quickly; hell it could take the zilla in Nid'zilla with all that melta, its just getting through the gaunts and 'Stealers.
If you have some points, I would suggest getting some templates (probably by putting cyclones on the speeders).

good list though... you could outflank with damn near everything, which will be vicious, and with Tigirious, you double your chances of showing up at the right time (iirc, all my stuff is packed up to go home for thanksgiving, and I dont feel like digging it out).

maybe you could get some points and keep tigirious' bonuses by getting a regular libby with just the powers you need, saves about 100pts, which lets you get some blast markers...


----------



## fett14622

What are anyone thoughts on Relic blades? Are they effective? Are they worth the points?


----------



## Someguy

On the subject of land speeders I think that typhoons are a good option. Since frag missiles are strength 4 they are defensive, and it can fire two blasts and a heavy bolter against hordes while moving, all at long range. It can punish vehicles and MEQs with krak missiles if needed as well. A lot more flexible (and expensive) than a multi melta.

I think relic blades are pretty good. They let you wound tougher targets than you otherwise could, so I think they may be better than a pair of lightning claws for characters who have a lot of attacks. I would only really consider them for captains and chapter masters though I think.


----------



## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> I think relic blades are pretty good. They let you wound tougher targets than you otherwise could, so I think they may be better than a pair of lightning claws for characters who have a lot of attacks. I would only really consider them for captains and chapter masters though I think.


I'd second this. Anybody else doesn't have enough attacks to really make the most of its high Strength attacks. Vanguard Sergeants and the like might as well go with power fists.


----------



## gawbo005

Ferik said:


> Here is anouther take on my previous list I hope its a little more viable.
> What do you all think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HQ
> Kor'Sarro Khan
> Moondrakken
> Command Squad
> (3) Meltaguns
> Company Champion
> Bikes
> 
> Chief Librarian Tigarius
> 
> TROOP
> 8 Space Marine Bikes
> Power Weapon & Terminator Honours
> (2) Flamers
> Attack Bike W Multi-Melta
> 
> 8 Space Marine Bikes
> Powerfist & Terminator Honours
> (2) Meltaguns
> Attack Bike W Multi-Melta
> 
> FAST
> 1 Landspeeder
> Multi-Melta
> 
> 1 Landspeeder
> Multi-Melta
> 
> 1 Landspeeder
> Multi-Melta
> 
> 
> ELITE
> 7 Assault Terminators
> Thunderhammers
> Landraider Crusader
> 
> pretty much the same tactics as the previous post as well.


how would you bring bikes as a troop choice? im not seeing it in the rules


----------



## godzy

Mounted assault. having a captain on a bike allows you to have bike squads count as troop if they have 5+ models.

having a bike force, loaded up on speciels soud nice.
you can probably get khan, a command squad with 4 specials or CC specials, and three maxed out bike squads, each with two specials and a heavy weapon in about 1500.

the bike lets you move and fire at full rang with rapid fire, can pass around Melta or MM, or pack two or three flamers and a Heavy bolter.


----------



## Gobbo

You need more armored bodies. You only have 16 models that are scoring units, and bikers die just as fast to plasmaguns and lascannons and power klaws as any other normal marine. Also your spending nearly 500 points in hq alone.plus an extra 440 just on the terminators in a land raider.

When a squad of orks get the charge on your bikes your gonna be out of scoring units very quickly, and you can argue that they won't but 5th edition is all about holding objectives.


----------



## Hialmar

I would hazard a guess, without any hard data to back this up, that on average more Marine players fall on the inexperienced side of things in relation to all of the Tournament players as a whole.

I think mariens tend to be the prime starting army for most players and may show up at tournaments before the players may be ready for that level of competitiveness. In addition, I do not think that marines were developed for tournament play but can do quite well if the marine player and their respective opponents took "fluffier" lists, for lack of a better term.

I think that you have the hard-core uber-competitive players, who mistake cheesy list making for being a good player, will often take other options rather than marines. 

I think that if you limited all tournament armies to average lists forced to utilize certain builds you would discover that a preponderance of winners would be players who now tend to run more fluffy lists, do not go for only those units that maximize strengths and limit weaknesses, but probably have a better grasp of strategy and tactics. I also would propse that the leader boards would look quite different and that the winners would be people now who finish roughly in the middle or bottom half at tournaments.

This is just my opinion based upon some experience and more observation and is obviously will not be viewed as accurate at all by some readers.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Hialmar said:


> I would hazard a guess, without any hard data to back this up, that on average more Marine players fall on the inexperienced side of things in relation to all of the Tournament players as a whole.
> 
> I think mariens tend to be the prime starting army for most players and may show up at tournaments before the players may be ready for that level of competitiveness. In addition, I do not think that marines were developed for tournament play but can do quite well if the marine player and their respective opponents took "fluffier" lists, for lack of a better term.
> 
> I think that you have the hard-core uber-competitive players, who mistake cheesy list making for being a good player, will often take other options rather than marines.
> 
> I think that if you limited all tournament armies to average lists forced to utilize certain builds you would discover that a preponderance of winners would be players who now tend to run more fluffy lists, do not go for only those units that maximize strengths and limit weaknesses, but probably have a better grasp of strategy and tactics. I also would propse that the leader boards would look quite different and that the winners would be people now who finish roughly in the middle or bottom half at tournaments.
> 
> This is just my opinion based upon some experience and more observation and is obviously will not be viewed as accurate at all by some readers.


that is the reason for scoring based upon the army build, sportsmanship an the other "soft" criteria, instead of based solely on wins. 
I agree that tourneys that are gw sponsored should have a tourney foc, one that encourages players to build lists that are true to their army's background, as opposed to the clone lists that feature more cheese than all of the dairy farms in wisconsin.
by forcing tourney players to use "lactose intolerant" lists, the focus at tournament levels will shift from cheese lists to actual gameplay.


----------



## Ferik

Heres a take on a 2000pt Vulkan list. 


HQ 
Forgefather Vulkan Hestan
Command Squad 
(4) Meltaguns
(4) Flamers
Drop Pod

Captian 
 Relic Blade
Storm Shield
Command Squad
(4) Meltaguns
(4) Flamers
Drop Pod

TROOP 
10 Space Marines 
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Terminator Honours
Rhino

10 Space Marines
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Terminator Honours
Rhino

10 Sisters of Battle 
(2) Meltaguns
Rhino

FAST 
3 Landspeeders 
(3) Multi-Meltas
(3) Heavy Flamers

ELITE 
3 Dreadnaughts 
(3) Multi-Meltas
(3) Heavy Flamers
(3) Drop Pods

So in total thats 16 twin liked Melta weapons and 17 twin linked Flamers in which pretty much every unit has access to.

Also I will mention that yes you can put two different weapons on the Command Veterans as their armoury says "Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/ or bolt pistol with:" with Marines having BS of 4 almost requires them to be shooty.

Also seeing as they are drop poding I felt they needed to have more of a punch when they arrive instead of taking pock shots with less affective weapons and hoping to get into combat later.

So in taking out as many of the enemy before their turn is more benificial and gives your opponent less counter fire on their turn.

Also their base 2 attacks is nothing to sniff at and is still useful afterwards though their initiative and WS are no better than a marine and as such are undesirable against dedicated assault units.

I left the troop choices in their Rhinos and in reserve so they can do what they are there for taking objectives and to have some mobility in the army as well.

Well thats the idea so far what do you all think?


----------



## Ferik

Gobbo said:


> You need more armored bodies. You only have 16 models that are scoring units, and bikers die just as fast to plasmaguns and lascannons and power klaws as any other normal marine. Also your spending nearly 500 points in hq alone.plus an extra 440 just on the terminators in a land raider.
> 
> When a squad of orks get the charge on your bikes your gonna be out of scoring units very quickly, and you can argue that they won't but 5th edition is all about holding objectives.


Well you could always avoid the bikers by turbo boosting your bikers I suppose.

So how would you suggest improving on this type of list? since this thread is trying to find ways to make Marines work and not how they can be easly taken appart, we already know the problems we face and more constructive criticism would be more benificial is all... sorry for being so blunt but just trying to make a point is all.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Ferik said:


> Well you could always avoid the bikers by turbo boosting your bikers I suppose.
> 
> So how would you suggest improving on this type of list? since this thread is trying to find ways to make Marines work and not how they can be easly taken appart, we already know the problems we face and more constructive criticism would be more benificial is all... sorry for being so blunt but just trying to make a point is all.


.

If you know the problems that space marines face, why defend a list that is the problem in a nutshell. an all bike list is too small, and not resilient enough to win tournaments. 

instead of focusing on making new lists, use solid tactics. 

As a csm player that uses infantry exclusively, i have to be concerned about mobility, which is my biggest obstacle. I take this disadvantage and turn it into an advantage by fighting defensively with my main force and deep striking my termies as late in the game as possible to deny my opponent objectives. in kill point missions, i use the as either a spearhead for assaults, or as a counter-assault force. 

these ideas can be applied to any SM force. take a solid block of core troops, add fire support elements and then add specialists, such as termies, and have at least two roles for each of your specialists planned out before the battle.


----------



## Ferik

Son of mortarion said:


> .
> 
> If you know the problems that space marines face, why defend a list that is the problem in a nutshell. an all bike list is too small, and not resilient enough to win tournaments.
> 
> instead of focusing on making new lists, use solid tactics.
> 
> As a csm player that uses infantry exclusively, i have to be concerned about mobility, which is my biggest obstacle. I take this disadvantage and turn it into an advantage by fighting defensively with my main force and deep striking my termies as late in the game as possible to deny my opponent objectives. in kill point missions, i use the as either a spearhead for assaults, or as a counter-assault force.
> 
> these ideas can be applied to any SM force. take a solid block of core troops, add fire support elements and then add specialists, such as termies, and have at least two roles for each of your specialists planned out before the battle.


The problem is the Codex and army as a whole not just a list.

I do agree that our main emphasis should be on tactics.

The down side is that our core choices are just no-wheres comparible to many of the other cores out there making it extreamly difficult to compeat with other armies the same can be said for the other aspects of the Marine army which are either overpriced in points or are not as effective as their counterparts in other codex's.

Also the tactics that work for many other armies will not necessarily work for Marines seeing as they are a compleatly different entity.

So to re-interate what I was saying earlier which I admit I may have not been clear is that this thread is about trying to make Marines work and that means throwing out list and breaking them down on the good and the bad so we can weed out the problems and then build tactics around the workible units.

Sorry for all the ranting just a touchy subject I guess and seems like non-marine players don't understand were we are comming from is all.:cray:


----------



## Lord Reevan

Son of mortarion is right though. The list can be made effective. The few times I use codex SM I'm successful with it the majority of the time. That kind of proves that it's not the units that are the problem. 

and I like SoM's tactic which I've used something similar before. cover hugging defensive lines, waiting for the enemy while firing away, then deepstrike or flank and hit them on two sides.... It works and it can be used for several armies.....


----------



## Ferik

Lord Reevan said:


> Son of mortarion is right though. The list can be made effective. The few times I use codex SM I'm successful with it the majority of the time. That kind of proves that it's not the units that are the problem.
> 
> and I like SoM's tactic which I've used something similar before. cover hugging defensive lines, waiting for the enemy while firing away, then deepstrike or flank and hit them on two sides.... It works and it can be used for several armies.....


Ok so for example purposes what did you run and how did you play them?

Since I am the first to admit I am nowheres near totally understanding tactics or army building so a short synapse could be useful.

I would especially like to know how you fared against the top tier list as well.


----------



## Someguy

Hialmar, this thread is meant to be about fixing the problems rather than debating whether they exist, but your post requires some thinking about I think. You make a number of suggestions - basically anything other than there actually being a problem with the codex rather than an issue with players. Personally, I think it's the codex. I'll look at what you've said a point at a time.



Hialmar said:


> I would hazard a guess, without any hard data to back this up, that on average more Marine players fall on the inexperienced side of things in relation to all of the Tournament players as a whole.


That might be true to some extent and it may have an effect on standings. More experienced players may have chosen other armies. It may be that if an army is perceived as being useless this becomes self-fulfilling, as people who want to win abandon it. I don't think that this has happened yet though, as quite large numbers of people are still taking marines to tournaments. This year it came as a surprise, to me at least, that they did so very badly. You would think that, out of the hundred or so people taking marines to the GT heats in the UK and the Baltimore GT, one player would get a top ten finish but as far as I'm aware they didn't.



Hialmar said:


> I think mariens tend to be the prime starting army for most players and may show up at tournaments before the players may be ready for that level of competitiveness. In addition, I do not think that marines were developed for tournament play but can do quite well if the marine player and their respective opponents took "fluffier" lists, for lack of a better term.


I think you have this kind of backwards. If there has been one main change from 4th to 5th it was the focus on troops being required to capture stuff and win games. If there's one thing that most people can agree tends to be "fluffy" it's armies with lots of troops in them. Logically, people should now be using "fluffier" armies this year than last year. Marines should be ideally placed for this environment, with the only codex released since 5th edition came out. Anyway, the guys who have shown the most spectacular improvement this year have been orks, and they tend to be seen as a fluffy army. Few armies could be more fluffy than a horde of orks and/or speed freaks and if anything the ork codex is a triumph of the army's actual effect matching up with their fluff - where the marine one is an abject failure to do so.



Hialmar said:


> I think that you have the hard-core uber-competitive players, who mistake cheesy list making for being a good player, will often take other options rather than marines.


I think that's a very negative view to take of tournament players in general. Again though, if it is seen that you can't take a good army with marines... well that's kind of my point.



Hialmar said:


> I think that if you limited all tournament armies to average lists forced to utilize certain builds you would discover that a preponderance of winners would be players who now tend to run more fluffy lists, do not go for only those units that maximize strengths and limit weaknesses, but probably have a better grasp of strategy and tactics. I also would propse that the leader boards would look quite different and that the winners would be people now who finish roughly in the middle or bottom half at tournaments.


You propose a kind of Nascar system? Well, if everyone took marines then marines would win - and lose. You would still see a vast majority of the same people doing well though. I do sometimes get told stuff along the lines of "you couldn't do that with a fluffier army", usually after wiping my opponent's army out. Personally I have seen no evidence for this at all, and I've certainly never, ever felt that I'm beating a "fluff head" only because of my list. I have seen people lose because of their own list lacking vital tools to deal with stuff that I can do, and I've very often seen them make dumb errors, get the rules wrong and then get annoyed with me when they suffer as a result. Are fluff heads usually better players than WAAC tournament junkies? No. Hell no.



Hialmar said:


> This is just my opinion based upon some experience and more observation and is obviously will not be viewed as accurate at all by some readers.


That's fair enough and thanks for your contribution.

To put this into some context about how things have changed, I'll discuss the first tournament I went to, which was the 1999 40k GT. Yes, I'm kind of old. I took marines with a pretty balanced army that I'd tested against my friends. I played quite well, had some pretty good luck and won all five games, managing to complete many of the secondary objectives that got you bonus tournament points. I ended up in 4th place with the best general award. At this point quite a lot of points were available for painting and sportsmanship, so some guys with better painted armies and a guy who got four or five "best opponent" awards finished above me, which is fair enough. 

My point is, two editions and two codexes ago, any fool could win a tournament with marines. Now it barely seems possible to qualify with them. Something has changed.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Ferik said:


> Ok so for example purposes what did you run and how did you play them?
> 
> Since I am the first to admit I am nowheres near totally understanding tactics or army building so a short synapse could be useful.
> 
> I would especially like to know how you fared against the top tier list as well.


I've put up a rough list here already, with tactics. It's a more mobile defence than Mort said but it's still the same principle. 2 rhinos, covered by a land raider crusader with assault terminators and terminator chaplain, flanked by 2 assault squads. 

That would be the main brunt of my force that would come up to approx 1495pts, depending on how my squads are set up, usually multimleta and plasma gun in the tactical squads, for me they are great defensive weapons. in an 1850 list I could add in a devastator squad with 10 men and 4 missile launchers plus 2 attack bikes, with either weapon you like really... that comes to 1845. add meltabombs to an assault squad and away I go. 

Note that this is a Blood Angels army list but again same principle to normal marines as I didn't use the assault squads to hold objectives....

this list gives me a good amonut of anti tank, anti horde, fast moving tank busting, very efficient objective sweeping, and holding with the defense based tactical squad. Against eldar, nid horde and nidzilla armies, chaos of several different styles (Khorne and tzeentch mostly) and guard And I beat them all with few losses.... Unfortunatley there are no ork players in my area so I couldn't test against them but I feel that the nidzilla can be used to similar effect at times....


----------



## Vashtek

Lets be clear. 

We are not trying to come up with propsosals that mean marines will win most of their games played against club players. We are trying to come up with ideas and lists that will allow a player to place highly (within top 10 say) of a GT.

This means the list must be capable (not necessarily automatically, just capable in the hands of a skilled player) of beating lash, ork nob biker death, monolith spam and all the other silly lists out there.

At the moment chaos lists are clearly competitive, tyranids are, eldar are and orks definitely are. 5th only made dark eldar better but I don't see much of them. Imperial guard are tricky to make work but they are getting a new codex soon and I have seen drop guard capable of beating top tier lists. Daemonhunters are not competitive. Witchhunters might be but I haven't played against them enough. Necrons probably took a small hit due to 5th but monloliths are still very scary and they are getting a new codex soon. Daemons seem to beat good lists but can lose just to bad luck (not what you want in a tournament army).

What is left? Marines and marine variants. Space wolves and deathwing work ok but I am trying to get to in this thread a standard marine list that can compete at the top level.


----------



## Lord Reevan

That was in a Tournament setting though If that was aimed at me there. Everyone was bringing their A game with lash DPs and either zerkers or thousand sons, or tzeentch DPs with hella good powers. They were all Tournament builds and I came second in it and that was against a chaos player who can use use possessed well so he has a very good grasp of tactics. It was an unofficial tournament but we did it as close to a GT as possible....


----------



## Vashtek

Lord Reevan said:


> That was in a Tournament setting though If that was aimed at me there. Everyone was bringing their A game with lash DPs and either zerkers or thousand sons, or tzeentch DPs with hella good powers. They were all Tournament builds and I came second in it and that was against a chaos player who can use use possessed well so he has a very good grasp of tactics. It was an unofficial tournament but we did it as close to a GT as possible....


Not really aimed at you.. I just felt the thread was wandering slightly and the thread needed a restatement of its aims.

Do you remember the games? A tournament report might be helpful with some of the tactics you used... how you countered lash, ork nob units etc


----------



## Reaper Autocannon

:good:I almost chose space marines, wanted to get a white scars army with loads of bike ( i love bikes), but in the end i chose chaos (lost and The damned); i did this because chaos has more diversity in it infantry. 
a friend told me that he based his army on what the chaos list didn't have eg scouts and land speeders. in the end he got a very fast a powerful force.

i have always liked the idea of devistators and they are the one thing that people are missing out on. my friend and other space marine gamers said they thought they were a bit nooby and i thought that was complet rubish; because they can be crushed by infaltrating units and deepstrikers.:good:


----------



## Amra_the_lion

well, here are some of the common mistakes that I have seen (not that this is the reason the codex isnt working to expectations)

I see people relying on orbital bombardment a lot. Too much. Full scatter, and its only once.

The new book has three totally new character choices (librarian and chappy have new stats anyway). These are really support choices, supporting a certain strategy, and I see them played just because they are new or have new powers, not in strategy.

People are playing the new units like they are much more than they seem. Yes vanguard and sternguard are cool, but they are massively expensive. I see people throw them into situations where they are whipped fast, they have specific uses and they are being used for them.

I see people using the special characters to try to build a new version of 4th ed chapter traits lists, instead of using them to enhance new ideas and strategies.

Basically its seems to be lots of new toys that are not being used in their places.

I use only one or two of the new pieces, and never put all my faith (or points) into them. I take a lot of tried and true space marine standards, and I change my lists and tweak them to get better, even if that means I get rid of the new shiny toys.

just my two cents...


----------



## gawbo005

I think at this point we are seeing a lot of people talking about the weaknesses of the SM units. Now I propose that we start listing off the SM units and talk about their strengths and weakness and which tactical situations they would be used. 

ill start with a general tactical squad

The tactical squad is one of the most well rounded units in the game. It can be molded to fit almost any situation with the large array of weapon choices. Now it is feasible to bring them with only 5 men. They can be useful on a razerback to quickly ship them in to a objective and hold it rather effectively for a few turns, and for 90 points you would not cry to much if they died. But from what I've seen people typically take them in units of 10 and combat squad them into two five man squads so that way they can take two weapon choices. 

The nice parts of the 10 man squads is they get to select three heavy weapons to take for free (heavy bolter, flamers, multi-melta, and missile launcher) and for a few more points they get a plasma cannon and a lascannon. for assault weapons they get flamers, plasma gun, and a meltagun. with all of these weapons you can form a nice selection for a nice variety of roles. and the sergent also has the options for a nice ranged fighting and CC roles. They also have the option to select a transport which will make them much more mobile.

list of strengths
good weapon selection
option to make mobile with transports
sergent with power weapons
good base stats
that awsome 3+ armor save.

weaknesses
small numbers
pricey troop choice for only 10 troops
every death hurts
a lot of armies are set up to kill these guys

Since a lot of people are set up to kill these guys cover becomes a real important factor to consider when moving your troops around. they generally don't do to well in CC as other troop choice and unless they are paired with assault weapons they should not be seeing to much hand to hand combat. 

well its late and im tired and im regretting writing this so late so i know i missed a point or two. im hoping that others will take a unit and go over their strengths and weakness and good tatics they can be used in so that way we can all brainstorm how to make the space marines strong in GT since we all agree that we cannot play them the same way anymore.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Vashtek said:


> Not really aimed at you.. I just felt the thread was wandering slightly and the thread needed a restatement of its aims.
> 
> Do you remember the games? A tournament report might be helpful with some of the tactics you used... how you countered lash, ork nob units etc


I know it sounds very all in one basket but My crusader cleared them both pretty well.... Chaos players only use Daemon princes in my area and the assault cannon plus multi melta took care of that... Plus the terminators charging out of the crusader in my turn so he couldn't use it really helped too.....

Unfortunatley I didn't face any orks but I did face a stealer army and as they are both killy CC hordes The same approach works IMO... Firing lines. I had my convoy of troops move up the field, deploy in cover, and blast away at them with everything I have. If theiy're moving faster, such as speed freaks etc. I just hold back, blow the vehicles and then go after them with concentrated bolter fire....


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

gawbo005 said:


> I think at this point we are seeing a lot of people talking about the weaknesses of the SM units. Now I propose that we start listing off the SM units and talk about their strengths and weakness and which tactical situations they would be used.
> 
> ill start with a general tactical squad
> 
> The tactical squad is one of the most well rounded units in the game. It can be molded to fit almost any situation with the large array of weapon choices. Now it is feasible to bring them with only 5 men. They can be useful on a razerback to quickly ship them in to a objective and hold it rather effectively for a few turns, and for 90 points you would not cry to much if they died. But from what I've seen people typically take them in units of 10 and combat squad them into two five man squads so that way they can take two weapon choices.
> 
> The nice parts of the 10 man squads is they get to select three heavy weapons to take for free (heavy bolter, flamers, multi-melta, and missile launcher) and for a few more points they get a plasma cannon and a lascannon. for assault weapons they get flamers, plasma gun, and a meltagun. with all of these weapons you can form a nice selection for a nice variety of roles. and the sergent also has the options for a nice ranged fighting and CC roles. They also have the option to select a transport which will make them much more mobile.
> 
> list of strengths
> good weapon selection
> option to make mobile with transports
> sergent with power weapons
> good base stats
> that awsome 3+ armor save.
> 
> weaknesses
> small numbers
> pricey troop choice for only 10 troops
> every death hurts
> a lot of armies are set up to kill these guys
> 
> Since a lot of people are set up to kill these guys cover becomes a real important factor to consider when moving your troops around. they generally don't do to well in CC as other troop choice and unless they are paired with assault weapons they should not be seeing to much hand to hand combat.



I guess I'll follow your lead, it seems a good idea... once we have agreed on what weaknesses and strengths there are to play with, we can cohesively move towards playing these off each other to make stronger lists.

Dreadnaught:

Strengths: wide array of weapon options
decent armour (good enough to warrant a tank-killing squads attention for a turn or two)
accurate shooting
good in CC
cheap (easy to fit two of these into a list)
S10 in CC

Weaknesses: slow
armor isnt stellar (good tank-hunting unit will do damage easilly)
not many attacks in CC

IronClad variant:

Strengths: AV 13
Seismic Hammer
good tank hunting options
can assault into terain very easilly (IronClad Launchers paired w/move through cover)
possiblility for lots of attacks in CC
good AV

Weaknesses: More expensive
Very little long range power
slow


anything I miss?

maybe it would also help if we got a list of exploitable weakness in the standard GT cheese lists (Lash, Mech Eldar, Nob Bikers ect...) and look into what marine units can exploit them.


----------



## gawbo005

Another thing with dreads is if they have a CC weapon they are the same as power fists. 

I think that a big strength of the dreads is their ability in CC, they may not have to many attacks but if played right they can tear up weaker infantry that can't get their their armor, which would be most troop choices. This could be used to tie up squads of troops that may be rushing to your guys.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Dessel_Ordo said:


> gawbo005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe it would also help if we got a list of exploitable weakness in the standard GT cheese lists (Lash, Mech Eldar, Nob Bikers ect...) and look into what marine units can exploit them.
> 
> 
> 
> Lash is easier than it seems.
> 
> there are three ways to defeat lash.
> either take redundant squads, defeating the purpose of moving units to decrease their effectiveness, or you can take advantage of combat squads to effectively double the number of squads you have. since lash can only affect one unit at a time, they gain less benefit from using it. or you could do both, this provides a lot of nearly identical units that the lashing player has to choose from, making the impact negligible.
> combining redundancy and combat squads with good use of maneuver will also reduce the effect of lash, as it is only a 24 inch range power. keep the weapons capable of killing the user of lash (dp or sorc) in the backfield, and lure it in with the other half of the squad, and take advantage of the points invested in the dual Dps w/ lash. that is going to be at least 1/4 of their points in 2 models, where they are going to kill 1/20-1/10 of your points worth of models.
> 
> Mech eldar is tricky, since their vehicles are now ded 'ard. the upside is the numbers game, which will be more in your favor, as eldar transports are expensive, and don't have an enormous troop capacity. Take advantage of the reduced numbers and place tour troops where they can mutually support two or three other squads, and focus on destroying one squad before moving to the next. resist the temptation to spread your fire, as you want to overwhelm individual squads as early as possible.
> 
> Fighting a nob biker list meas that you will be facing a small force(you should have 15-20 more models), and you can put a hurting on them if you can take advantage of terrain. move into difficult terrain, deploy there if you can. not only will you gain the benefits of cover, but you can also slow down the nobz, giving you that precious extra turn to whittle them down further.
> 
> 
> Above all, you should put at least half of your points into tac squads, and consider their weapon loadouts before you pay points for incompatible weapons. leave the lascannons to vehicles and devestators. tac squads should have missile launchers or plasma cannons. tac squads are for dealing with the bulk of an opposing force, the dev squads and vehicles are for fire support, either by providing more anti horde fire, or for dedicated anti-armor.
Click to expand...


----------



## gawbo005

Son of mortarion said:


> Dessel_Ordo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fighting a nob biker list meas that you will be facing a small force(you should have 15-20 more models), and you can put a hurting on them if you can take advantage of terrain. move into difficult terrain, deploy there if you can. not only will you gain the benefits of cover, but you can also slow down the nobz, giving you that precious extra turn to whittle them down further.
> 
> 
> 
> I also think the easiest way would be to try to instantly kill as many bikers as you can, looking at the stats its str8 guns and ap2 or ap1 to get past the FNP. also if you instantly kill a nob they have to take it from a fresh nob not one with wounds on it.
> it also works to hit them with as many power weapon attacks as you can so they dont get a save and FNP. with space marines im thinking hitting them with sternguard equiped meltas or a vindicator then charge them with an terminator assault squad with storm shields so if they dont all die you still have the 3+ inv save
Click to expand...


----------



## Son of mortarion

gawbo005 said:


> Son of mortarion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also think the easiest way would be to try to instantly kill as many bikers as you can, looking at the stats its str8 guns and ap2 or ap1 to get past the FNP. also if you instantly kill a nob they have to take it from a fresh nob not one with wounds on it.
> it also works to hit them with as many power weapon attacks as you can so they dont get a save and FNP. with space marines im thinking hitting them with sternguard equiped meltas or a vindicator then charge them with an terminator assault squad with storm shields so if they dont all die you still have the 3+ inv save
> 
> 
> 
> mass fire is more effective and easier to have. you are better off using a load of frag missiles or heavy bolters. the nobz only have two wounds a piece and warbosses are t5 to start, so the nobz aren't all that great a priority for instant death. if they are kitted out with a painboy to give the mfnp, all the better, it means that they will have a higher individual point cost and there will be fewer of them.
> The nob biker list is pretty much two warbosses and two squads of nob bikers, and little else. getting into close combat is the last thing you want to do against them, as they will be able to unleash too many high strength attacks. if you need to engage them in close combat, do it with a dread, after the first round, they will be hard pressed to harm it, and it will be able to kill a few each round.
> 
> In adition to the killing end of the game, space marines have another advantage against this list: mobility in the form of deep strike, infiltrate, and scout. Since the nobz and warbosses will be so concerned with assaulting your gunlines, they will leave you free to take advantage of outflanking maneuvers and deep strike to controll/contest objectives. The nob biker list is weak on the backfield with 80-100% of the points in a few units. if you Outflank scouts into objectives the ork player will be forced to decide whether to keep up the assault or defend their objectives.
Click to expand...


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## Someguy

I think the trick with ironclads may be to stick HK missiles on them. I don't usually rate these all that highly, but actually the ability to throw some long-range anti tank around in the early turns is handy. Later on, the chances are that the enemy is going to come closer anyway, and at that point you can start using your melta gun and/or heavy flamer.


----------



## Wusword77

So have we figured out how to make marines work?

I would have contributed somethingto this discussion but I am sadly lacking in experence in GT stlye of play. I would love to see this thread continue mainly because I think it offers great insight in how to play the marines with the new codex.

Think its no longer the units now, but the tactics, that'll see marines be a competive force again.


----------



## Ferik

I think a point for point anylisis of each and every unit in the book would be benificial as to learn what their weakness and strengths are.

As well as the various tactics that can be used for each 

Then perhaps a final synapse as to use it as a whole.

Now I can attempt to do this which I will start work on but not sure if I am the right person for the job.

So if anyone else wants to take a stab at this idea by all means have at er.


----------



## RexFTW

*Marine Lists that Win Tournaments*

Ok so here is the problem with the lists posted in this thread already:

Bolter marines suck. No they arent the best troops in the game. No they dont shoot better than other troops. They arent tougher than other troops. They dont really do anything well and are grossly overpriced.

Does the marine codex suck? no!

Why not do what you did before.... pack as many heavy and special weapons in as you can. Just because they cant take 2 plazma guns doesnt mean they cant tale alot of weapons

Does the tactical squad suck? no! why arent you pimping your squad leaders with power fists and combi weapons?? Why arent you taking a razorback with HBs for dirt cheap or pods with deathwind launchers??? all of this crams more than 2 weapons into your tactical squad.

So, one tactical squad can take 2 heavy weapons and 2 specail (1 of those combi) weapons and a powerfist!



here are tournament lists that my brother has played (and won with).

This list is hard as nails. It only has issues with monserous creatures:

6x venerable dreads with heavy flamers and meltas in drop pods with deathwind launchers,
Master of the forge (with big tac squad)
1 tactical squad with powerfist plazma combiplazma in a pod
2 5 man tacticals in pods

obviously there are only 3 scoring units so you hope they come in late in the game (drop pods are left in reserve).

Turn 1 you drop in 5 venerable dreads and melta tanks/flame infantry or pop smokes. Fire 5 deathwind launchers.

Turn 2 you assault with all 5 dreads. There is no real way to kill a venerable dread in close combat except MC or chainfists.

Later turns pods come in to score.

Very tournament effective. vs monsterous creatures it really comes down to if they can roll the vehicle destroyed twice.


Second tournament list:
4 tact squads
Pfist, melta, combi melta, anti horde heavy weapon(HB or PC)
Ride in razorback with twin linked HB

Master of the forge rides with a tact squad

Apply drop podding venerable dreads liberally (i think you can get 4)


----------



## jigplums

a friend of my just qualified at heat 3 of the ukgt with marines and was 2nd? highest placed marine player

his force consisted of Pedro cantor

10 sternguard drop pod
5 termies thunder hammer stormshield
5 termies thunder hammer stormshield

5 scouts
5 scouts

landraider
land raider redeemer


----------



## jigplums

Son of mortarion said:


> gawbo005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> mass fire is more effective and easier to have. you are better off using a load of frag missiles or heavy bolters. the nobz only have two wounds a piece and warbosses are t5 to start, so the nobz aren't all that great a priority for instant death. if they are kitted out with a painboy to give the mfnp, all the better, it means that they will have a higher individual point cost and there will be fewer of them.
> The nob biker list is pretty much two warbosses and two squads of nob bikers, and little else. getting into close combat is the last thing you want to do against them, as they will be able to unleash too many high strength attacks. if you need to engage them in close combat, do it with a dread, after the first round, they will be hard pressed to harm it, and it will be able to kill a few each round.
> 
> In adition to the killing end of the game, space marines have another advantage against this list: mobility in the form of deep strike, infiltrate, and scout. Since the nobz and warbosses will be so concerned with assaulting your gunlines, they will leave you free to take advantage of outflanking maneuvers and deep strike to controll/contest objectives. The nob biker list is weak on the backfield with 80-100% of the points in a few units. if you Outflank scouts into objectives the ork player will be forced to decide whether to keep up the assault or defend their objectives.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually disagree with most of this. bearing in mind a vindcator shell = every failed save is a dead ork.
> the str of nob bikers is there toughness against small arms fire. there T5 so most stuff will be 5's or worse to save, they then get the 4+save which is also a cover save so high ap disrupting it, and then they get fnp. and if that wasn't enough they have 2 wounds and can be equiped with different equipment. So its fairly easy to spread wounds.
> 
> As someone who has used nob bikers for a while i can tell you that small arms fire doesn't scare me at all.
> 
> Next in cc with a dread they wont struggle at all, bearing in mind that they should really be charging anyway, my 6 man unit has 2 claws, and 4 big choppas. + my warbosshas a huge choppa too for STR 10. all the nobs will be +1 str that turn so 16 str 7 and 8 str 9.
> I use them as vechile killers. the dreds attacks himself are scary as each wound will kill a nob. but hes likely to kill 1 which i can hapily suck up.
Click to expand...


----------



## jigplums

RexFTW said:


> Ok so here is the problem with the lists posted in this thread already:
> 
> Bolter marines suck. No they arent the best troops in the game. No they dont shoot better than other troops. They arent tougher than other troops. They dont really do anything well and are grossly overpriced.
> 
> Does the marine codex suck? no!
> 
> Why not do what you did before.... pack as many heavy and special weapons in as you can. Just because they cant take 2 plazma guns doesnt mean they cant tale alot of weapons
> 
> Does the tactical squad suck? no! why arent you pimping your squad leaders with power fists and combi weapons?? Why arent you taking a razorback with HBs for dirt cheap or pods with deathwind launchers??? all of this crams more than 2 weapons into your tactical squad.
> 
> So, one tactical squad can take 2 heavy weapons and 2 specail (1 of those combi) weapons and a powerfist!
> 
> 
> 
> here are tournament lists that my brother has played (and won with).
> 
> This list is hard as nails. It only has issues with monserous creatures:
> 
> 6x venerable dreads with heavy flamers and meltas in drop pods with deathwind launchers,
> Master of the forge (with big tac squad)
> 1 tactical squad with powerfist plazma combiplazma in a pod
> 2 5 man tacticals in pods
> 
> obviously there are only 3 scoring units so you hope they come in late in the game (drop pods are left in reserve).
> 
> Turn 1 you drop in 5 venerable dreads and melta tanks/flame infantry or pop smokes. Fire 5 deathwind launchers.
> 
> Turn 2 you assault with all 5 dreads. There is no real way to kill a venerable dread in close combat except MC or chainfists.
> 
> Later turns pods come in to score.
> 
> Very tournament effective. vs monsterous creatures it really comes down to if they can roll the vehicle destroyed twice.
> 
> 
> Second tournament list:
> 4 tact squads
> Pfist, melta, combi melta, anti horde heavy weapon(HB or PC)
> Ride in razorback with twin linked HB
> 
> Master of the forge rides with a tact squad
> 
> Apply drop podding venerable dreads liberally (i think you can get 4)


 
a few points. The first list is illegal, marine squads must be 10 man to get the option of a drop pod transport. therefore any wins your brother has with it can kinda be discounted.

the second list i feel would then suffer vs eldar with there skimmer tanks. Your bulk anti-tank is close ranged and 2 of the pods HAVE to come down first turn. Meaning he can keep his whole army in reserve and when he comes in snipe those dreds at range. plus you have alot of points up for grabs in kill points.


----------



## spike12225

LordWaffles said:


> If it's any consolation, Shrike himself is the reason most of my hqs now have power fists.
> 
> Shrike's a jerk.


lol shrike feels the same towards you 

jjust because against me you'll have the captian himself and a assualt squad 12" from you but also 2 assualt squads and a term squad in L/R assualting anything in 18 to 24'' first turn.
When you think thats bad i pull two tact squads in pods and drop them on your objective plus one in reserve scouts with camo cloaks on my objective with bolstered defence and stand lone tech i find opponents are over whelmed buy amount of assualts against cc poor armies i assualt multiple units and 2+ cover keeps ten scouts alive for a while not that their the enemies main concern 

if they have a deep strike cc squad they can kill scouts or back there army up or potentially loose there main army


----------



## Darkseer

jigplums said:


> a few points. The first list is illegal, marine squads must be 10 man to get the option of a drop pod transport. therefore any wins your brother has with it can kinda be discounted.
> 
> the second list i feel would then suffer vs eldar with there skimmer tanks. Your bulk anti-tank is close ranged and 2 of the pods HAVE to come down first turn. Meaning he can keep his whole army in reserve and when he comes in snipe those dreds at range. plus you have alot of points up for grabs in kill points.
> 
> 6x venerable dreads with heavy flamers and meltas in drop pods with deathwind launchers,
> Master of the forge (with big tac squad)
> 1 tactical squad with powerfist plazma combiplazma in a pod
> 2 5 man tacticals in pods


Hey jigplums (nice to see an old Portent/Warseer person) 

I seriously wonder if the new marine codex CAN work at all right now.
Everything is so expensive and it often feels like you have to throw all your eggs in 1 basket and just got for it, turning the army into the classic Paper, Rock or Scissors dilemma.

While the ven dread spam list looks fantastically destructive, a tactical player will know where and when it will arrived, then easily claim the objectives. Fast armies will murder it.

It's tough against some armies. Useless against others.


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## Katie Drake

jigplums said:


> a few points. The first list is illegal, marine squads must be 10 man to get the option of a drop pod transport.


You sure about this, jiggy? I haven't found anything in my travels through the Marine Codex to indicate this. Could someone clarify?


----------



## Suncrusher

Katie Drake said:


> You sure about this, jiggy? I haven't found anything in my travels through the Marine Codex to indicate this. Could someone clarify?


yeah, there's nothing in the codex that says only a 10 man squad can take a drop pod.


----------



## Gobbo

Katie Drake said:


> You sure about this, jiggy? I haven't found anything in my travels through the Marine Codex to indicate this. Could someone clarify?


Ah ha.. .redemption!!

Where it says "dedicated transports" for the tactical squad selection it says.
"If the squad numbers ten models, may take a drop pod"

So yeah, I guess marine body bags only come in packs of 10?


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## Darkseer

Good work Gobbo.
Have some rep :good:


----------



## fett14622

Gobbo said:


> Ah ha.. .redemption!!
> 
> Where it says "dedicated transports" for the tactical squad selection it says.
> "If the squad numbers ten models, may take a drop pod"
> 
> So yeah, I guess marine body bags only come in packs of 10?


I second this, its on page 134:victory:


----------



## Underground Heretic

I'm not sure how well it would work in a tournament setting, but I usually play against a list that is based around the following:

Master of the Forge w/Conversion beamer
Tactical squads with Lascannons

and based on his opponent

10 man assault squads
10 man Terminator squads
1-6 Dreadnoughts with DCCW and TL Lascannons

I tend to have problems with his lascannons cracking open my Crisis Suits, but I think the weakness against horde armies, but would be able to deal with tank heavy lists, and could possibly stop MCs and at least bog large squads down in CC with the Dreadnoughts. Ork boy mobs with a PK nob would be able to do a number on them, but it seems that lists are only half the problem; tactics to work with list are needed.

This list seems to be a gunline that has counter-charging units in the Dreadnoughts if the enemy gets close. Every unit can fire a lascannon or better, and the tendency to bring full squads limits the number of kill points available.


----------



## Suncrusher

Gobbo said:


> Ah ha.. .redemption!!
> 
> Where it says "dedicated transports" for the tactical squad selection it says.
> "If the squad numbers ten models, may take a drop pod"
> 
> So yeah, I guess marine body bags only come in packs of 10?


damn, i missed that too. looks like only tacticals have that restriction though. everyone else can take it regardless of squad size, such as veterans and assault squads


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## Katie Drake

Awesome, thanks for the clarification everyone.

*heads off to the Army Builder Datafiles site to report a bug*


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## fett14622

Katie Drake said:


> Awesome, thanks for the clarification everyone.
> 
> *heads off to the Army Builder Datafiles site to report a bug*


The 11/20 update has it fixed, Katie :victory:


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## Katie Drake

fett14622 said:


> The 11/20 update has it fixed, Katie :victory:


Oh, does it? I guess I never noticed 'cause I always took 10 man Squads anyway...


----------



## Lord Reevan

I see a lot of lascannon spam being talked about and I don't see the benefit for it. marines seem to be failing more against the big hordes like orks more than the lascannon fearing tau or guard or other marines. Tooling up with nought but lascannons will make your entire army a hold back and fire army, which makes it a reactive force over an active force which will allow enemies to take the inititave all the time.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Lord Reevan said:


> I see a lot of lascannon spam being talked about and I don't see the benefit for it. marines seem to be failing more against the big hordes like orks more than the lascannon fearing tau or guard or other marines. Tooling up with nought but lascannons will make your entire army a hold back and fire army, which makes it a reactive force over an active force which will allow enemies to take the inititave all the time.


in addition, it goes against the common belief that has been expressed in this thread that the weapons in squads needs to compliment the role it is expected to fill.

Lascannons are great on vehicles, and in limited numbers in devastator squads, but they need to be complimented with other weapons. the humble missile launcher is prime for this role, leaving your tac squads to equip heavy bolters, which suit their role very well.


----------



## Vaz

Devestators are fantastic now, with Split Fire (still, they're very expensive, and Long Fangs do the split fire better), because of the Combat Squadding.

If you're not sure what you're facing you only need to take 1 squad, and do half anti-infantry, half anti-tank, and not take Missile Launchers, which tend to be a bit shit both roles against the extremes, neither here nor there. Now, you take your 2 heavy Bolters and 2 Lascannons, or variants there-of, and be alrightish against two armies.

Vindicators are taking ass now. I've started fielding 3 in a 1500 list, and have included 2 Land Raiders for a 2000pt List. You can find it (Lance Strike) in the SM Army list section.

They can take apart large Hordes, and Big boys easily, with 4 Lascannons, 4 heavy bolters, 3 Demolisher Cannons, 3 Flamers, they can roll pretty well.


----------



## Underground Heretic

I agree with the concept of using the right tool for the job and am against Marines spamming a single weapon in principle. Not having played at the GT level, I am rather badly inexperienced. 

But addressing Vaz' idea, I am fully backing the squat humble Vindicator. It has the power to inflict Instant Death on any model subject to the rule (unmodified T5 or lower), would wound every model with wounds on a 2+, correct me if I'm wrong please, and uses the Large blast template to do it. The only problems I see with the Vindicator are its relatively short range and its inability to cause multiple wounds on the units it cannot inflict Instant Death on. I can see it as being a good solution to a smaller, heavier armored horde style, like 20 man Berserker squads, but the lack of range might cause problems against true hordes like the Orks.

As a way of shielding vehicles' side armor, would placing combat squads along the side of the vehicle result in a vehicle obscured result because of firing through another unit or possibly from reducing the visible profile of the vehicle?


----------



## Son of mortarion

Vaz said:


> Devestators are fantastic now, with Split Fire (still, they're very expensive, and Long Fangs do the split fire better), because of the Combat Squadding.
> 
> If you're not sure what you're facing you only need to take 1 squad, and do half anti-infantry, half anti-tank, and not take Missile Launchers, which tend to be a bit shit both roles against the extremes, neither here nor there. Now, you take your 2 heavy Bolters and 2 Lascannons, or variants there-of, and be alrightish against two armies.
> 
> Vindicators are taking ass now. I've started fielding 3 in a 1500 list, and have included 2 Land Raiders for a 2000pt List. You can find it (Lance Strike) in the SM Army list section.
> 
> They can take apart large Hordes, and Big boys easily, with 4 Lascannons, 4 heavy bolters, 3 Demolisher Cannons, 3 Flamers, they can roll pretty well.


missile launchers do exactly what they are meant to do, I am curious as to why players sniff at a s8 weapon that can also drop a s4 blast.
Worrying about those "extremes" is why Sm players are getting stomped. The predominant toughness is 3 and the s4 frag missile can reliable wound t4 models. so it really isn't shit at all. it is cheap, reliable, and when used well very lethal to all forces. even if you lack the confidence to use frag against SM, the krak missiles are practically designed with MEQ in mind, ap3 s8 is pretty much going to ruin any meq's day.

for the heavy armor, use the lascannons and melta guns, for everything less than a monolith or land raider, the krak missile is more than up to doing the job. 

most games see a very light amount of armor, that consist of mostly av 12 or 13, which means that it isn't as important to make sure to have a large amount of the best anti-armor weapons available, but to make sure that anti-personnel weapons are abundant. If you insist on not using a weapon that can do both well, and do it cheaply enough to use them in abundance, well you kinda deserve to lose.


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## Lord Reevan

And in devastator squads lascannons are too expensive. an extra 15 points over a missile launcher to get one more str, one more ap but lose the anti horde ability. It is not the humble missile launcher. It is the almighty missile launcher. It can do everything well and is cheap too ( free is as cheap as you can get) plus there will rarely be an AV > 13 in 1500pt games so the Missile launcher will be very capable in tournaments.... and for the bit that is there such as the monolith or land raider enough str. 8 shots should render it useless in relatively short order....


----------



## Someguy

I think the choice for a tactical squad's heavy wep comes down to missile launcher or plasma cannon. The extra cost for a PC is minimal and, in my opinion, worth it. People do fear plasma cannons, and with good reason.

I can't really ever see myself using a devastator squad though to be honest. I like my heavy weps to move about.


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## Gobbo

Nooooooooo plasma cannons in squads are bad. Save them for dreads. On a marine, lets face it their gonna blow themself up, they dont often hit and when they do cover saves usually nerf the impact. Plus you cant really hurt vehicles.

Lascannons all the way, you can insta kill characters/nobz/oblits, take out vehicles, and hurt those tyranid scum. Plus you never really have to worry about being in range.


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## Gobbo

That was my 100th post, is there soem kind of prize?


----------



## Son of mortarion

Gobbo said:


> Nooooooooo plasma cannons in squads are bad. Save them for dreads. On a marine, lets face it their gonna blow themself up, they dont often hit and when they do cover saves usually nerf the impact. Plus you cant really hurt vehicles.
> 
> Lascannons all the way, you can insta kill characters/nobz/oblits, take out vehicles, and hurt those tyranid scum. Plus you never really have to worry about being in range.


that is all that it can do. a missile launcher can instant kill, hunt mc andvehicles, and then use them for anti horde.

this isn't about finding the weapon that is the best at what it does, but finding weapons that fulfill three criteria:

are they effective?

Are they points effective?

and can they fill multiple roles?

Lascannons fail two out of the three criteria, as you pay a lot more for the extra point of strength, and they can't do anything else. 


In addition to making sure that the weapons have compatible uses, make sure that they have compatible ranges. if you are going to spend the extra points, you better get something out of it.


----------



## Johnathanswift

The only lascannon I usaly take are on the predators anihalators, and a ten man plasmacannon devastator squad is something all oponents quake at, from nids to daemons to orks.


----------



## Katie Drake

Johnathanswift said:


> The only lascannon I usaly take are on the predators anihalators, and a ten man plasmacannon devastator squad is something all oponents quake at, from nids to daemons to orks.


It's true, my Daemons do indeed fear a bunch of plasma cannons.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I belive the best choice for Tac squads is Missle Luancher, followed closely by the Plasma cannon. Both are verestile enough to crack light vehicles and shread infantry. I don't play marines, but one paper, an ironclad with 2 Hunter-Killer Missles looks to me like it can effectivly fill you AT fire, supplemented only by the Missle Luanchers of your tactical squads and maybe a melta or two. Vindicators are great, that large template is rightfully feared. I also like the look of teh redeemer. Kills stuff and doesn't die. Chapter Masters have a S10 AP1 Large Blast attack, sure its one use, but it only has to kill 3-4 Nob Bikers to effectivly make the captain pay for himself. Just a few of my thoughts.


----------



## Darkseer

The FLAME ON guys seem to be going for the basic marine squad that comes with free missile launcher and flamer.

Guess it's good, because it works against hordes and tanks.
Plus, should you split them into combat squads, the role of each team is very clear.
Adn it's the cheapest option at...185pts -owch!


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## Vashtek

Nice to see the thread hotting up with some really useful posts.




Darkseer said:


> The FLAME ON guys seem to be going for the basic marine squad that comes with free missile launcher and flamer.
> 
> Guess it's good, because it works against hordes and tanks.
> Plus, should you split them into combat squads, the role of each team is very clear.
> Adn it's the cheapest option at...185pts -owch!


A basic marine squad with missile launcher and flamer costs 170 points (still owch!)


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## Lord Reevan

So what would people recommend as the special weapon in the squad? 
Personally I feel that the meltagun is the best general weapon as it can basically guarantee an infantry kill everytime (a 3+ then a 2+, no armour) plus has the bang to take out tanks easily as well....

the flamer is great against hordes and often enough marines as making them roll enough will cause a few deaths. the problem with that though is unless you face no vehicles or big things and don't give your sarge anything they will suffer badly unless you have a lot of dedicated anti MC and tank units.

The plasmagun is the jack of all trades reallly. Very good against MEQs as it has high strength and ap, plus rapid fire allows more fire from it. the only problem is that they are expensive and can kill the wielder, 5% chance isn't much but if rapid fired it'll be higher. It is also not great against tanks, only light vehicles and MCs are a good target for them


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## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> So what would people recommend as the special weapon in the squad?
> Personally I feel that the meltagun is the best general weapon as it can basically guarantee an infantry kill everytime (a 3+ then a 2+, no armour) plus has the bang to take out tanks easily as well....
> 
> the flamer is great against hordes and often enough marines as making them roll enough will cause a few deaths. the problem with that though is unless you face no vehicles or big things and don't give your sarge anything they will suffer badly unless you have a lot of dedicated anti MC and tank units.
> 
> The plasmagun is the jack of all trades reallly. Very good against MEQs as it has high strength and ap, plus rapid fire allows more fire from it. the only problem is that they are expensive and can kill the wielder, 5% chance isn't much but if rapid fired it'll be higher. It is also not great against tanks, only light vehicles and MCs are a good target for them


All great points here and very accurate. My favourite special weapons for Space Marines are as follows in order:

Meltagun
Flamer
Plasma gun

Reasoning is fairly simple. The melta is super cheap, powerful enough to put a Wound on anything in the game, is an assault weapon (don't blame me, I'm a Blood Angel player, so anything that I can shoot and then charge with makes me happy) and can deal with even the heaviest armored vehicle in the game. My main issue with the meltagun is that since it only fires one shot, it's not terribly hard to miss and then be stuck standing there and looking silly.

The flamer's grand. Hordes just weep when you whip that bugger out and Marine players tend to be cocky and not bother spreading their models out or watching carefully to ensure that they won't get hit by a flamer. As I've said before, you need only tag six models to bring a Marine down with a flamer which really isn't too hard to do. The really unfortunate part is when you find a Dreadnought or something getting uncomfortably close there's not much you can do about it It helps that flamers are super cheap.

The plasma gun is by far my least favorite. It's the most expensive option, doesn't allow charging after being fired and has a habit of killing the model firing it. Too many times to count have I gotten into optimal plasma gun range, rolled the dice and found myself to either overheat twice or just miss entirely. Call me superstitious, but when I get screwed over a dozen times or more by a weapon I tend to avoid it when I can.


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## The Son of Horus

Katie Drake said:


> Reasoning is fairly simple. The melta is super cheap, powerful enough to put a Wound on anything in the game, is an assault weapon (don't blame me, I'm a Blood Angel player, so anything that I can shoot and then charge with makes me happy) and can deal with even the heaviest armored vehicle in the game. My main issue with the meltagun is that since it only fires one shot, it's not terribly hard to miss and then be stuck standing there and looking silly.


 
I completely agree. The melta's flexibilty is what makes it win out over everything else, I think-- while people predominantly look at it as an anti-tank weapon, the simple fact of the matter is it does the exact same thing to an infantryman as it does a vehicle. 

That being said, I have the same bad luck as you do with plasma rifles with my meltas... I either miss, or roll a 1 to wound or for armor penetration. Every time it happens (and it happens a lot) I die a little bit inside.


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## Underground Heretic

I know they probably aren't a very viable unit, but I was wondering if equiping combi-weapons to Sternguard would improve them. Hellfire rounds look like they would be beautiful, making anyone roll saves. A full squad is a bit on the expensive side, but look like they would be good at causing enough wounds to bring down an MC. What I was wondering, in a round about sort of way, was if giving the squad combi-Meltas in any quantity would make them a viable unit for tank hunting.


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## Katie Drake

Underground Heretic said:


> I know they probably aren't a very viable unit, but I was wondering if equiping combi-weapons to Sternguard would improve them. Hellfire rounds look like they would be beautiful, making anyone roll saves. A full squad is a bit on the expensive side, but look like they would be good at causing enough wounds to bring down an MC. What I was wondering, in a round about sort of way, was if giving the squad combi-Meltas in any quantity would make them a viable unit for tank hunting.


Actually, I've been running a squad with five combi-flamers and five combi-meltas in a Drop Pod. They split into Combat Squads upon landing and run about annihilating anything that they can find.


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## sooch

Check out this list. 

Kosarro Khan (Moondrakkan) 205pts

Command Squad (4x Storm Shields, 3x Lightning Claws, 1x Thunder Hammer, 2x Melta Bombs, Company Standard) 365pts

8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts

8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts

5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts

5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts

Land Raider Crusader 250pts

Land Raider Crusader 250pts

1750pts

At first glance, one might think that it's low on troops. However, with the 2 AV14 bunkers as well as an extremely dangerous command squad rolling around, it becomes pretty easy to just get in your opponents' faces and contest all their objectives, all the while holding your own with scouts 2+ GtG cover.


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## Dessel_Ordo

sooch said:


> Check out this list.
> 
> Kosarro Khan (Moondrakkan) 205pts
> 
> Command Squad (4x Storm Shields, 3x Lightning Claws, 1x Thunder Hammer, 2x Melta Bombs, Company Standard) 365pts
> 
> 8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts
> 
> 8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts
> 
> 5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts
> 
> 5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts
> 
> Land Raider Crusader 250pts
> 
> Land Raider Crusader 250pts
> 
> 1750pts
> 
> At first glance, one might think that it's low on troops. However, with the 2 AV14 bunkers as well as an extremely dangerous command squad rolling around, it becomes pretty easy to just get in your opponents' faces and contest all their objectives, all the while holding your own with scouts 2+ GtG cover.


Seems decent, but using Moondraken and Kosarro with a biker command squad (I'm assuming) doenst help the army, as it isnt bike-based. Perhaps Pedro would be a better choice, it would free up 395 pts... spend 100 to get the sternguard up to 10 men each (dont upgrade) and you get 4 more scoring units. switch the combi-meltas for combi-flamers in one of the squads and you have some decent horde controll, and replace a Crusader with a Redeemer. while the list would still be vulnerable to Rail-rifles, it would be a pretty good synthesis of the different things we've mentioneed in this thread. As for the remaining 285 points... I would suggest some serious anti-tank power... not sure what though (Speeders with meltas (possibly Typhoons as well), perhaps... enough speed to not get completely wiped out by Lasconnons/Lances/Rail-weapons before reaching kill range for the MM's, and cheap enough to get 2 squads of 2... which should be enough to lay low most, if not all vehicles.


This actully brings me to the next entry of "Codex Roundup (tm)"
Land Speeders
Strengths:
Cheap
Fast
Outstanding versatility (for a mostly reasonable price)
space marine accuracy
Weaknesses:
Low AP
A few over-priced upgrades (assault cannon, I'm looking at you  )
not cheap enough to viably max out on upgraded versions of these in average point games (justifiably at least... you could, but...)
the usual cons most skimmers have...


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## Son of mortarion

sooch said:


> Check out this list.
> 
> Kosarro Khan (Moondrakkan) 205pts
> 
> Command Squad (4x Storm Shields, 3x Lightning Claws, 1x Thunder Hammer, 2x Melta Bombs, Company Standard) 365pts
> 
> 8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts
> 
> 8 Sternguard (8 Combi-Meltas) 235pts
> 
> 5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts
> 
> 5 Scouts (1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifles, 5x Camo Cloaks) 100pts
> 
> Land Raider Crusader 250pts
> 
> Land Raider Crusader 250pts
> 
> 1750pts
> 
> At first glance, one might think that it's low on troops. However, with the 2 AV14 bunkers as well as an extremely dangerous command squad rolling around, it becomes pretty easy to just get in your opponents' faces and contest all their objectives, all the while holding your own with scouts 2+ GtG cover.


it has major weaknesses, the land raiders are anti infantry, and have little to deal woth enemy armor. about half of your points are in three units, and troops are about 1/8 of your total points spent, not a very reliable list.

Even though he is a special character, Kosarro Khan will die if he charges any full strength squad that is worth anything, and you will be lucky to get his points back. He needs bikes to support him.

your cimmand squad is 365 points that can be destroyed within one round. even the storm shields cant keep them from having to take a lot of leaderships tests when the rest of the squad is vaporised by ordinance. 

The only units capable of capturing objectives is also your most fragile, and potentially the least effective. the subpar save, low ws and bs, and low numbers means that you can count on your only scoring units being gone after tunr two, three at the latest. 

all of this means that all an opponent has to do to win in an objective based mission is defend one objective, destroy you ten scouts, and then the game is in the bag. you cant win by only contesting objectives if your opponent claims objectives.


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## Someguy

I am quite impressed by land speeder typhoons with heavy bolters. They can do a lot of damage to hordes and are scary to vehicles, and never need to go close to the enemy. It helps that frag missiles are defensive weps, so it gets to fire two frag missiles plus the heavy bolter at infantry and two krak missiles at tougher stuff.


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## sooch

Son of mortarion said:


> it has major weaknesses, the land raiders are anti infantry, and have little to deal woth enemy armor. about half of your points are in three units, and troops are about 1/8 of your total points spent, not a very reliable list.


I guess 16 meltaguns mean little to you. 4 fired per tank pretty much guarantees a destroyed or explode result, especially against open topped vehicles such as trukks or open waggons. Sure my points are spent in land raiders and sternguard, but deathwing seems to do alright.



Son of mortarion said:


> Even though he is a special character, Kosarro Khan will die if he charges any full strength squad that is worth anything, and you will be lucky to get his points back. He needs bikes to support him.


My bad for not including the fact that the command squad is on bikes...point cost for the bikes is included in 365points though.



Son of mortarion said:


> your cimmand squad is 365 points that can be destroyed within one round. even the storm shields cant keep them from having to take a lot of leaderships tests when the rest of the squad is vaporised by ordinance.


That's funny...Khan is Ld10 so good luck with pinning him with ordnance (especially since in order to be pinning, ordnance needs to be fired as an ordnance barrage and not direct fired and thus will scatter full 2d6). Bikes are quite large models, and at most my opponent will hit three bikes with a large template and some lucky scatter rolling. After storm shields, I'm only losing maybe one model.



Son of mortarion said:


> The only units capable of capturing objectives is also your most fragile, and potentially the least effective. the subpar save, low ws and bs, and low numbers means that you can count on your only scoring units being gone after tunr two, three at the latest.


Most fragile? Subpar save? Show me how easily you can kill 10 scouts sitting in 2+ cover and I will believe you.



Son of mortarion said:


> all of this means that all an opponent has to do to win in an objective based mission is defend one objective, destroy you ten scouts, and then the game is in the bag. you cant win by only contesting objectives if your opponent claims objectives.


Your logic is circular here...not even going to bother.


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## Son of mortarion

Ld 10 means little when he is dead. you are banking on his survival, since half of your points are in one unit and two vehicles. no the meltas do not impress me, they are one time use weapons, being combi meltas, and you have to get within 6 inches to make proper use of them. 

against my force, meh they aren't any scarier than plasma, and are better for me, as I will only face one scary shot instead of two.



Assault the scouts, takes one round, and one squad of seven plague marines
( which is what I use.) then that's half of your scoring units. Or are you going to argue that you get a cover save in close combat? and 2+ save of any kind don,t scare me, since it is only to models.

Care to explain how my logic is circular?
Or are you going to make an accusation without backing?

I will reiterate for clarity

Troops claim objectives. 

all others only contest.

If i have an objective i have claimed, and all you have are objective that you contest I win the objective based mission.

since you do not claim any objectives.


in a kill point mission, those two scout squads might as well be written off as two free killpoints, as they are too small to last the entire battle.
To be blunt, your list is third edition amateur cheese. This is at the heart of what i said earlier in this threadabout SM players being fixated on the shiny toys, and ignoring tactics.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Okay here is a list that I thought may work. Feel free to tear to shreds, I not a marine player, Im just trying to help out, its unfair that army should be so uncompetive.

Libarian
Ironclad w/ heavy flamer, 2 hunter-killer missles and deathwind drop pod
Iron clad w/ heavy flamer and 2 hunter killer missles
2x 10x tactical marines w/ missle luancher, melta gun and rhino w/ extra armour.
10x tactical marines w/ Plasma Cannon
Vindicator
Redeemer w/ extra armour and multi-melta. 

It is flexible can tackle tanks and infantry, can go up to 6 scoring units, but drop back to 3 for Anihilate missions. Put 5 Tac marines in the Land Raider and then it can claim objectives. Drop one Dread in and support the main advance with the other. have a a Rhino Tac squad go with the main advance to put pressure on and sweep in with a full squad to keep the objective.


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## Underground Heretic

From another non-marine player, I submit a 2000 point, 15 Kill Point list with four scoring units. I was reading this thread and noting the praise for the missile launcher so I incorporated them. This list might struggle against AV 14, but can focus 10 Krak missiles on one target. I remember the constant refrain against spamming a single heavy weapon, but believe that the spamming is balanced by the flexibility of the Missile Launcher, being able to damage any vehicle and deliver S4 blasts to hordes. The assault squad's job is to charge a weakened unit and finish it off. The Vindicator can deliver a S10, but more importantly AP 2 large blast against any large squad and advance with the Rhino squads.

1 Captain with Power Sword and Jump Pack 140 pts.
1 Sternguard Squad (10) with no upgrades 250 pts.
4 Tactical Squads (10 each) with a Meltagun mounted in a Rhino with extra armor 225 pts. per
1 Assault Squad (10) with 2 flamers, sergeant with Power Sword 225 pts.
1 Landspeeder with Typhoon Missile Launcher 70 pts.
2 Devastator Squads (5 each) with 4 Missile Launchers 150 pts. per
1 Vindicator with no upgrades 115pts.


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## Ferik

Actually your Scouts would generally only have a 3+ save unless you have something to Bolster Defences or a fortified bunker but yes they are very hard to take out with a 2+ save, unless they are hit with Heavy Flamers or Lash of Slaneesh out of the terrian for example.

Son of Mortarion is correct though you shouldn't bank on two small troop choices keeping you in the game and Pedro would be your best bet at increasing your number of objective holders.

Also as threatening as your special squads are they will tend to be one trick ponies and may destroy one squad in their initial faze but the counter attack will most likely wipe them out and that will be a huge waste of points afterwards as well , maybe cut some of your more expensive squads out and use the points to make your squads larger and so you can also select some other options as well.

Your list has a good starting base it just needs a little more refining.

Anyways thats just my two cents


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## Fangio

I'd call in the support of Sternguard units. 10 boltguns firing exactly what you want for killing any target (albeit they can overheat very occasionaly). They can also be used in conjuction with the CF special rule to allow them to become a scoring unit, or, if kept codex, use the more classic notion of pulling back with combat tactics to keep shooting those deadly boltguns.

They do seem very flexible to me, especially if think that you can slap them in a drop pod if you like and drop them into rapid fire range when you need them to.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But expensive for something that dies just as easy for normal marines. I don't mean to shoot down all your ideas, we have to consider weakness's as well. But Sternguard are good. A 5-man team would be good, especially with 3 Combi-Meltas.


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## sooch

Here we go...



Son of mortarion said:


> Ld 10 means little when he is dead. you are banking on his survival, since half of your points are in one unit and two vehicles.


He's with the command squad. That's 5 T5 FNP ablative wounds that ALWAYS get a 3++. Against volume of fire, stuff like bolters wounds on 5's and I'm not likely to be in rapid fire range unless I want to be (bike mobility). Against tougher stuff, Khan will not likely have to take any saves due to high str low AP weapons being low in volume of fire. Liken it to a warboss in a nob squad, except even when he's dead the squad is still Ld9 so if you're relying on pinning checks to stop the squad then you're probably out of luck on most days when rolling is average.



Son of mortarion said:


> no the meltas do not impress me, they are one time use weapons, being combi meltas, and you have to get within 6 inches to make proper use of them.


I plan to only have to use them once. Ever seen a tac squad with a meltagun survive more than one turn after firing their melta at a raider filled with assault terminators at <6"? Or even a rhino filled with tacs for that matter? It's really a moot point. I'd rather fire 4 meltas all at once and not fire them again then get to fire 1 melta per turn for 5 turns. 

Get within 6"? It's not hard to do when you're riding in a land raider that can move 12 and still pump out assault cannon fire, and you're being flanked by bikers.



Son of mortarion said:


> against my force, meh they aren't any scarier than plasma, and are better for me, as I will only face one scary shot instead of two.


What exactly IS your force? You seem to put down a lot of lists in this topic as being bad for one reason or another, but never seem to step up and make a difference yourself. Plasma has seen its days in 4th edition. This is 5th edition, and ap1 weapons need to step up to take on tank busting duty. 



Son of mortarion said:


> Assault the scouts, takes one round, and one squad of seven plague marines
> ( which is what I use.) then that's half of your scoring units. Or are you going to argue that you get a cover save in close combat? and 2+ save of any kind don,t scare me, since it is only to models.


Haha...wow. 'Am I going to argue that I get a cover save in close combat'...:laugh: Good one. No, I'll just hit you with my command squad before you hit me. And while you're slogging it across the board with your 7 plague marines to charge my scouts who, like you said, aren't really doing much and aren't priority targets (low WS, low BS, like you said right), my land raiders and command squad are tearing up the rest of your army and then coming back for the plague marines that decided to go the wrong way.



Son of mortarion said:


> Care to explain how my logic is circular?
> Or are you going to make an accusation without backing?


If you want me to further break down your argument, sure. Your logic is circular because you suggest that I can't win by contesting objectives because my opponent will claim one. My original point was that I would win by contesting my opponent's claimed objectives. I'm saying that he won't win because I'll be on his objective, and you're saying that he will win because I won't be on his objective, pretty much.



Son of mortarion said:


> in a kill point mission, those two scout squads might as well be written off as two free killpoints, as they are too small to last the entire battle.
> To be blunt, your list is third edition amateur cheese. This is at the heart of what i said earlier in this threadabout SM players being fixated on the shiny toys, and ignoring tactics.


Two free killpoints if you bother going after them, which ends up being a lose-lose situation for you because you are unlikely to kill them without taking massive casualties on your way over, either directly due to the offending unit being shot or charged by the rest of my army, or indirectly due to your army diverting resources to trying to kill the stuff in my army that does the least damage.

I've read through the rest of the thread again...you seem to have the idea that in 40k proper tactics and proper list making are mutually independent. Sorry buddy, they aren't. Yes, someone with good tactics can use a shitty list to beat a player using shitty tactics and an optimized/cheese list...but what happens when you get two players of equal skill playing different lists? Yes, sometimes the list does matter and you can't come into this thread, which is all about how to make a marine list work, talking all this nonsense about how all we have to do is play with all our 4th ed. gear and use "solid tactics", ignoring any of our new resources at our disposal. This is 5th edition. Tactical marines are expensive and inefficient. Marines have to play to their strengths, and if that means using shiny new storm shields (just for example), then so be it.

To the guy talking about the 3+ vs 2+ cover - I would just send them to ground for the 2+, punishing opponents for trying to shoot at them for easy KP or whatever.

Land raiders are very useful, not just because they're AV14 and have lots o' guns, but because they are physically huge and can be used to isolate units to be sprayed down by sternguard without fear of too much return fire or assaults. The command squad also acts as a counter-charge/attack deterrent. If you're in range to wipe my sternguard, I'm in range to wipe whatever you have in combat with bikes.

Yes they die as easily as normal marines, but that's where the tactics that mortarion is always talking about come in. You play carefully, pick and choose your battles. If you lose a unit of sternguard, all is not lost...they will probably have done some damage and the game is not over until the judge calls it or you get wiped out.


----------



## Someguy

Well Sooch I tend to agree that two small units of scouts won't succeed in games with multiple objectives to claim. It's not impossible, but when all your opponent has to do to force a draw is kill 10 guys with 4+ saves, that tends to make his life easier.

The biker command squad option is powerful. I don't know if it's better than nobz bikers, who are a scoring unit (assuming that the ork takes a warboss, which he will). It's important to bear in mind also that they do not provide ablative wounds for a character in the unit. They are not a retinue and he can be picked out in CC. They do provide protection from shooting though.

Also, chill out both of you. This thread is not about "my army could beat your army". It's about the fact that orks, chaos and daemons are filling out the top 10 of tournaments while marines are filling out the bottom 10, and trying to see if we can do anything about it.


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## Son of mortarion

the reason I keep tearing apart these one-trick pony cheeselists is because they are a great part of thy SM armies are losing.

Since you ask, I play deathguard, and I have made many suggestions as to improving performance. List building and tactics are independent, but can synergise well. a cheese list isn't an example of this.


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## fett14622

Son of Mortarion what would you advise as a solid SM list? Lets say between 1500-2000 points.:victory:


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## Son of mortarion

what I have been trying to get out is that the list isn't as important as usijng it well, that is why i have been tearing apart the cheeselists that have more spam than a monty python convention.

one list will not work for all.

make a balanced list, with around 40% or more of your points invested in troops, avoid min-max, and don't take anything that has limited purpose. if you are going to invest in expensive models, they better be able to do more than one thing.


My personal list uses six squads of plague marines, a dread, five termies ( all the termie models I currently own) and a lord. I have done very well with this list, and have only lost once in the last six months, playing every other weekend. I don't win because of my list, but because of how I use it. Ma last loss was because ibucnhed up a few squads and my opponent used a SAG and vaporised enough that when he charged, I was wiped out.


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## Dessel_Ordo

children, simmer.
sooch, by posting a list here, expect to see its weaknesses hammered, as the point of this thread is to get rid of weaknesses in marine lists/tactics
Son of mortarion, chill, and good point, in 5th, it is necesary to sink a decent amount of points into scoring units, hence, my suggestion to sooch to have pedro instead of Sosarro, and to add enough sternguard to those squads so that they can CS if need be.


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## Someguy

Points spent on scoring units is a start, but not the end of the issue. The important thing is not how many scoring units you have at the start of the game but at the end, and if you are controlling the objectives with them.

For instance, you could spend all the points you want on scouts and tactical squads but that isn't going to do you much good in take and hold against a horde. Somehow, you need to get one of those squads onto the enemy objective by the end of the game and remove the enemy from it. How do you do that?

Maybe you can't, and it's a better option to send a non-scoring unit to kill the enemy guys there, or at least contest the objective while you hold your own one and go for a 1:0. That's reducing your options for a win though and it can be difficult to hold a single point if a horde is heading that way. Maybe it's a better option than having your guys march off into the horde though.


----------



## sooch

Son of mortarion said:


> what I have been trying to get out is that the list isn't as important as usijng it well, that is why i have been tearing apart the cheeselists that have more spam than a monty python convention.


Obviously you have to know how to play the game. This thread assumes that players know how to play the game, and are looking for lists that will give marines the edge. This thread isn't about whether the problem is with the bad lists people have been bringing to GT's...we've established that this IS a problem and that's why this thread exists to 18 pages. It's about brainstorming ideas for lists, and like I said I haven't seen you doing anything constructive in here.



Son of mortarion said:


> make a balanced list, with around 40% or more of your points invested in troops, avoid min-max, and don't take anything that has limited purpose. if you are going to invest in expensive models, they better be able to do more than one thing.


The problem with dedicating 40%+ points to troops is that our basic troop sucks. Yes, it sucks. That 3+ save we are paying so many points for? Most armies pay for 5+ or 6+ saves and in 5th edition get 4+ cover wherever they go anyways. Bolters aren't fantastic. Heavy weapons are expensive considering you have to buy 10 marines to even think about getting one. Compared to even the humble ork boy we are outmatched. You talk about not taking things with limited purpose...plasma is one of those things. Sure plasma is scary to plague marines, plaguebearers...but when you're sitting in cover it reduces its effectiveness greatly and makes plasma a bad choice. Meltas can hit things like nob bikers in a pinch when no armor is available to target, but if armor is around they will fry it. Meltas fill multiple roles, plasmas do not. 

I'm fairly sure that sternguard are the expensive models you're referring to, and yes they are able to do more than one job. They have multiple ammunition types, if you didn't notice. An AP for every save once you count the meltas, as well as cover ignoring rounds which are worth their weight in gold in 5th edition.



Son of mortarion said:


> My personal list uses six squads of plague marines, a dread, five termies ( all the termie models I currently own) and a lord. I have done very well with this list, and have only lost once in the last six months, playing every other weekend. I don't win because of my list, but because of how I use it. Ma last loss was because ibucnhed up a few squads and my opponent used a SAG and vaporised enough that when he charged, I was wiped out.


I don't really care about your anecdotes, unless they're about placing in a GT with a space marine list that you're sharing with all of us. 

I don't mean to flame here...but you talk like you're the only one in this thread who knows how to play 40k and the rest of us are stumbling around like a bunch of legless five year olds with cheese in their hands. Please, save the patronizing and instead be productive here.

Back to my list - don't forget that the LR's can hold scouts as well. This adds greatly to their survivability, and I can hide the slogging stern squad behind the raiders in a V formation so that I can peek out of the crack but can't be assaulted or shot at by most angles.



> children, simmer.
> sooch, by posting a list here, expect to see its weaknesses hammered, as the point of this thread is to get rid of weaknesses in marine lists/tactics
> Son of mortarion, chill, and good point, in 5th, it is necesary to sink a decent amount of points into scoring units, hence, my suggestion to sooch to have pedro instead of Sosarro, and to add enough sternguard to those squads so that they can CS if need be.


I have no problems with constructive criticism such as yours. Adding pedro would give more scoring units + orbital bombardment + 30 extra points . However, the downside to this would be that my countercharge/hammer unit has to change because pedro cannot take a command squad. Pedro lets me take honour guard, but to be honest they're expensive and can't take bikes or storm shields. Another disadvantage of this is that my shooty army becomes stubborn, which is bad. If I'm losing combat, I want to run away so that I can shoot, not stay in combat and get slaughtered over 3 turns. I've been trying to weigh the costs and benefits of a trade such as this, and I welcome others to contribute their thoughts to this. You must understand though, that mortarion is here doing nothing but patronizing players and their ideas. This is not constructive, this is offensive.



Someguy said:


> Points spent on scoring units is a start, but not the end of the issue. The important thing is not how many scoring units you have at the start of the game but at the end, and if you are controlling the objectives with them.
> 
> For instance, you could spend all the points you want on scouts and tactical squads but that isn't going to do you much good in take and hold against a horde. Somehow, you need to get one of those squads onto the enemy objective by the end of the game and remove the enemy from it. How do you do that?
> 
> Maybe you can't, and it's a better option to send a non-scoring unit to kill the enemy guys there, or at least contest the objective while you hold your own one and go for a 1:0. That's reducing your options for a win though and it can be difficult to hold a single point if a horde is heading that way. Maybe it's a better option than having your guys march off into the horde though.


This is very true. Great points overall. In capture/control games it is EXTREMELY difficult to get a 2:0 victory where you have a scoring unit on your opponent's objective and a scoring unit on your own, simply because anything can contest. This makes it pretty much mandatory to wipe your opponent out if you want any other option than a 1:0 victory in that mission. I think that you and I may both appreciate the thought that 40% troops is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to 5th edition's changes to scoring units. 

When you consider it, a high number of scoring units is only potentially beneficial on one mission: sieze ground. With cap/ctrl, obviously contesting your opponent's objective is the way to go. With kill points, scoring is obviously a moot point. Even on seize ground wins are possible with minimal troops, again due to ease of contesting an objective. 2/3 missions therefore favor low numbers of hard scoring units, with the majority of the army being able to be quick and offensive, pushing into the opponent's deployment zone and killing everything in its way.

Now, not to confuse number of scoring units with hardness of scoring units...if one is to take a low number of scoring units then they should be relatively hard to dislodge from the home objective, or they should sit so low on the target priority of the opponent that they gain survivability in that respect. Just some thoughts that I feel apply to the design of my list.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

You CANNOT rely on making a cheese list to win. You need to play it well. That HQ command squad is a point sink IMO. There are plenty of things that can out combat it and it cannot score.


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## durian

i im sorta new at this but i thought wouldnt it be good two have some pods if you have four of them deep two in at the start and have two scoring units in the second and have the rest of your army shooty and a bit close (matbe have a stern gaurd and vanguard vets in the other two pods) maybe get some preds with heavy bolts cus there cheap and quite useful i think but hay you guys would think this shity ideauke: i dunno 

but anyway wat you think

Durian


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## durian

durian in

i just relize that vanguards get herioc intervention so get 2 squads of them so they stike the enemy on your first turn lol

Durian out


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## Underground Heretic

Durian, I would recommend against Vanguard, mainly from a points standpoint. While having 30 attacks on a turn 1 charge would be good, you need to have consistently good rolls on your deep strike scatter. While a Vanguard unit in a drop pod would be more probable to hit the target, it is another kill point that can't really defend itself and is relatively easy to destroy. Vanguard can be a very killy unit, but you pay for it.


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## durian

thank you

i thought they might be a decent option LOL (thanks for the quick reply +rep)

so pod or not to pod that is the question lol

Durian


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## Dessel_Ordo

I agree on vanguard, they have potential, but are fundamentally flawed in that they csot as much as a terminator if you want to use HI... also, I never really thought of HI as a turn 1 trick... but something to use as a failsafe tohit a fairly isolated enamy unit, or bail out one of your shooty units when you get the choice (i.e. you roll a deep-strike at some point)

another use I could see for them would be as an extra element to the strike-arm of your army, once again, you can rely on a turn 3-4 appearance for deep strikers normally, which is right about when you need that something to tip the balance so you can take objectives/go for the jugular. The only other big problem is the scatter, if you have a pod army, it isnt to hard to take locators (giving your vanguard some safe LZ's to work from, if you run bikes, its not hard to take some scout bikers to provide safe landing zones... its most other armies that have trouble using them safely for the exorbanent amount of points they run you.

good points sooch...

at that, the next entry in Codex Breakdowns (I be droppin the mad beats now boyz!)

Vanguard Veterans:
Strengths: 
the usual strengths a space marine gets (MEQ stat line)
anyone can get power weps, hammers, sheilds melta-bombs, claws (paired and single), fists and plas (resonably priced)
Heroic Intervention has the potential to be nasty
Weaknesses: 
only 2 base attacks
HI is unreliable at best
*EXPENSIVE*
very good chances of just getting gunned down after HI
have to pay extra for jump packs (which are mandatory for HI)

and of course, their ever dakkaing counter parts:
Sternguard Veterans:
Strengths: meq statline
deepstrike
alternate ammo types
everyone can take combi
2 specials/heavies for less than tacs
can be made scoring
Weaknesses: 
expensive (not as bad as Vanguard)
slow
scoring = stubborn
limited range


I'm working on a Redeemer/GK list right now... probly gonna get a game in with it sometime soon, will post results to help with the verdict on allies as an option...


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## spike12225

only thing with HI is that they can't come into game till turn 2 there reserves in all respects reason why i tool em up and stick them with shrike's infiltration to get them with in 12'' or at least 18'' then fleet backed up with 2 assualt squads and LR with termies

but if you must insist on HI take drop pods use there homing beacon to guide them in safely for that all important assualt or expect them to take a pounding


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## Dessel_Ordo

agreed, I am doing my best to stay neutral in the strength/weakness breakdowns as I can

didnt get to use the big new list I made, but did try to get a few of the thibgs discussed here in.

first off, an Epostillary with Gate of Infinity and Avernger, rollin with a unit of 5 grey knights (as troops, with an incinerator) has a pretty good points to earn-back rate, and can hold an objective pretty well. It also has enough mobility to minimize the risks of running up to a Tau gunline (handles well against hordes as well.)

Also had my faith in hammer-and-anvil tactics restored.

may get a full battle report up later... I'm pretty sure a few of those would really help progress this thread as well.


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## Galahad

HI doesn't work with drop pods. HI says "If a jump pack equipped..." meaning you cannot be transported since jump infantry cannot go in vehicles. And if you go wihtout the packs you don;t have HI

So the only way to use it is with the insanely overpriced jump packs. I don;t think it's worth it, to be honest


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## Someguy

Dessel_Ordo said:


> agreed, I am doing my best to stay neutral in the strength/weakness breakdowns as I can


I would personally suggest that you don't bother staying neutral. If you are analysing a unit and you think it's useless, it's fair enough to say so.

Gating GKs with incinerators around sounds like it would work well. It might be interesting to try something similar with sisters squads.


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## spike12225

spike12225 said:


> but if you must insist on HI take drop pods use there homing beacon to guide them in safely for that all important assualt or expect them to take a pounding


galahad i was mearly pointing out using drop pods homing beacons at no point did i say stick them in pod maybe you should read what is written and read entire post not key words

cheers


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## Vaz

I'm not going to pay 50 points, just so I can be sure a unit can teleport safely. I'd rather buy 5 power weapons for the Sternguard.


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## spike12225

wow 50 points to deepstrike safely with a sure fire unit so with that fifty points why not put and objective holding tactical squad or back up dread.

50pts to dp safely thanks for the laugh vaz


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## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> Gating GKs with incinerators around sounds like it would work well. It might be interesting to try something similar with sisters squads.


No... don't do that. Remember, Sisters will cancel out even friendly psychic powers on a 5+. Not to mention the absolute fluff-slaughter going on there...



> galahad i was mearly pointing out using drop pods homing beacons at no point did i say stick them in pod maybe you should read what is written and read entire post not key words
> 
> cheers


You could have been far more polite about this. Something like, "Oh, that's not quite what I meant Galahad," or something would've been fine. Also, is it really so hard to use some punctuation?


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## godzy

Sisters? GK? I thought the head line was "make MARINES work" (although I like GK, building them up now). avenger is great, I just had two games yesterday, that librarian on bike with his "the Avenger" took out almost two full marine squads, a captain and dreadnought (with might of ancients). as a substitute for the incinerator, get sternguard with two heavy flamers. a bit cheaper, but allows INV saves. gate near a nob bike squad, positioning the flamers and librarian in line with the bikes, and rapid fire with the rest. should be around 395 PTS, not cheap. this could be used also to speed bump them, if the terrain allows it, the can be blocked, allowing some other unit to take the offensive if the sturnguard survives long enough. you might loose an HQ and Elite unit, but take down one of his few troop choices.


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## Broken

I think that the best way to make Marines work is to manipulate their main difference from other races; the fact that they're general army list is so forgiving. With many other forces such as Eldar, if you make a bad move or choose a target not of the highest priority then that could end the game there and then. Whereas Space Marines don't usually falter when this kind of occurrence takes place. Sure it might result in some casualties but Marines are flexible enough and consist of enough elite units to turn the game back into their favour.

Some people have posted lists in this thread that consist of the same units repeated over and over again, usually about three times. Whilst this might be balanced depending on your choice of weaponry I don't think it's the best of ideas. Doing this may provide you with consistent results but all you need is an opponent who has a more balanced list, or one that excels in one particular aspect, and you're probably going to lose.

In my opinion the best way to make Marines work is to take a couple of Tactical Squads with weaponry that isn't contradicting, the Missile Launcher and Flamer combination for example. Although splitting into Combat Squads counters this problem it may not always be the best option to reduce the size of your squad, especially against armies like Tyranids or Orkz. My favourite combination always features a Plasma Gun as this is effective against all types of infantry and moderately armoured vehicles, the next weapon depends on what style I'm constructing my army in.

Assault Squads, Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans, Devastators, Terminators and more all offer variety and with a mix of the different units your list becomes very forgiving and many more tactics can be employed rather than repeating yourself and finding yourself in a tricky situation because your opponent knows what you're going to do. With a range of units your list will be strong, balanced and unpredictable which enables you to control the game and counter the person you're playing against with relative ease.

Hopefully, this post will provide a different opinion compared to those I've read, as looking in one direction isn't usually too helpful, judging from other discussions I've seen. To be honest, I'm also hoping people will argue against what I say as that gives room for more discussion and opinions, which enables us to see how other people think and how they find success in their games .


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## durian

hi guys

this is a little off topic but can you use lysanders bolter drill on sterngaurd???

Durian


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## Vaz

Any model armed with a Bolter, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, or Bolt Pistol. So yes.


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## durian

i think scouts would be the best troop as long as you had some back-up support they'll stay there it works for me i normally have two preds for the perpose it seems that if you give them camo cloaks and hide them right next to the objectives you want then on the fifth or sixth turn have them bolt to the objective i normally have 4 squads of 5 with camo cloaks three combat knives heavy bolter and one shotgun for the little bit of support for 100 pts its nearly cheaper than a tac squad with more close combat abilities and a heavy bolter with hellfire rounds then the 2 preds shoot the biggest threat and the scouts shoot a smaller one and in kill points hide the scouts in a forest or ruin and shoot the crap out of them and when or if they get close charge or counter-charge them by the way for all of this is 570 pts for the 4 scout squads and two preds with bolter sponsons so you could still have some anti-tank stuff and more close stuff just a suggestion 
(by the way i never care that scouts are bs3 doesnt change them for me most troops are bs3 anyway)

Durian


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## spike12225

my apologies galahad, had a bad day and took it out on you which wasn't fair.


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## jlunio

After wading thru 21 pages of posts I am still a bit braindead as I am just getting into the 40k scene. Personally I would like to see Battle Reports of those people at the GTs. Just to see what they are actually using to make a better assessment on the units and tactics are using.

Overall worse case is that GW totally fudged the SM Codex and are in the process of fudging every other one to bring in line which, but I am not the one to use that as an excuse.

Other wise GW could have jumped the gun with doing the SM Codex and didn't bring all the others in line as where they should be to begin with.


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## Galahad

spike12225 said:


> my apologies galahad, had a bad day and took it out on you which wasn't fair.


Apology accepted. For what it's worth, even re-reading your post, it really did look to me like you were suggesting using a homer to guide a pod full of Vanguard in. I was merely trying to help and explain how they worked. 

But misunderstandings happen. No worries.


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## Dessel_Ordo

I'm for flamers, the sternguard/Libby combo is defianately worth a shot, since sternguard are probbably gonna be the next thing I add to my army, I will have to try that out.

As for the GK, the intent of this thread is to get Marines competative in GT's, pulling out all stops, with no fear of cheese or jackassery in the lists (as several common GT lists are rife with jackassery and cheese (lookin at you lash/oblit CSM)). Therefore, in my humble opinion, GK, being codex legal, are fair game.

If no one would mind a bit of color in the codex round-up, I may put my opinion at the end 

its late, but you can exect to see a breakdown for the HQ choices (not the specials, just bare-bones, drudge standard HQ's) sometime tomorrow.


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## Lord Reevan

From seeing the placings in several GTs over the weekend I have noticed that many things the kick the crap out of marines are the hordes and they beat the crap out of armies similar to Sooch's one (not personal, using it as an example). for the same price of one of those uber killy units of death there can be over 100 orks or gaunts on the field and all those wounds and attacks will overwhelm any "uber unit" with ease.

Paying at least 40% of your points into troops is a good idea, I personally have 1 troop choice per 500 points and it helps me very well. with a tac. squad their rapid fire will take out a lot of of horde models quickly and if you team up several units together against a single enemy entity the divide and conquer technique will win out.

not going math hammer but going roughly
20 shots hitting on 3+, 2/3 goes through, wounds orks on 4+, 1/3 of all hits wound, no armour saves for orks. Do that with two tac. squads and you have 2/3 of that unit gone, with leadership tests going to be slammed on the remainder. 

Sure the 2 tac, squads are a lot more exepnsive than that one squad but after that re-embark them into a rhino and dash after another unit that has been witherd by heavy bolters, whirlwinds and frags....


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## Vashtek

Lord Reevan said:


> From seeing the placings in several GTs over the weekend I have noticed that many things the kick the crap out of marines are the hordes and they beat the crap out of armies similar to Sooch's one (not personal, using it as an example). for the same price of one of those uber killy units of death there can be over 100 orks or gaunts on the field and all those wounds and attacks will overwhelm any "uber unit" with ease.
> 
> Paying at least 40% of your points into troops is a good idea, I personally have 1 troop choice per 500 points and it helps me very well. with a tac. squad their rapid fire will take out a lot of of horde models quickly and if you team up several units together against a single enemy entity the divide and conquer technique will win out.
> 
> not going math hammer but going roughly
> 20 shots hitting on 3+, 2/3 goes through, wounds orks on 4+, 1/3 of all hits wound, no armour saves for orks. Do that with two tac. squads and you have 2/3 of that unit gone, with leadership tests going to be slammed on the remainder.
> 
> Sure the 2 tac, squads are a lot more exepnsive than that one squad but after that re-embark them into a rhino and dash after another unit that has been witherd by heavy bolters, whirlwinds and frags....


This is just wrong. I play marines and orks and I know what each gets for their points. 

A marine tactical squad with 10 guys and no upgrades costs 170 points. 20 ork shoota boys with a nob with powerklaw and 2 big shootas also costs 170 points. The ork unit is just better than the marine squad and about twice as good if there is decent area terrain about. Saying that 'other stuff' whittles down the ork units fails as the ork is also doing stuff to the rest of the army like infiltrating behind whirlwinds, firing 30 str 7 shots from a unit costing 150 points etc..

Additionally, the orks get other stuff as troops like mega-nobs, bike nobs and just plain nobs. You have to have something to deal with them as rapid firing bolters make no impact on these units at all. 

It's actually very difficult to rapid fire reliably. As orks waagh and are often in trukks or battlewagons, the opportunity to rapid fire is limited, and your whole battle line can be engaged whilst the footsloggas move up.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Im with Lord Reevan. A 300+ point unit will NOT make its points back. They charge a mob of 30 Orks, they kill the lot. They can't consolidate into another unit, so are stuck in the open. Another Ork Mob charges. Your looking at 80 S5 attacks with a bare bones 20 ork mob. Even if half hit, then wound, you are looking at 20 saves. Bye-bye uber unit.


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## Vashtek

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Im with Lord Reevan. A 300+ point unit will NOT make its points back. They charge a mob of 30 Orks, they kill the lot. They can't consolidate into another unit, so are stuck in the open. Another Ork Mob charges. Your looking at 80 S5 attacks with a bare bones 20 ork mob. Even if half hit, then wound, you are looking at 20 saves. Bye-bye uber unit.


So instead of having units that can actually take on the opponents' elite units you'd rather take units which die horribly to enemy's elite units and match up poorly against their standard units? The bike unit does not operate in a vacuum and certainly does not charge on its own. 

The orks are also str 4 not 5, assuming they get to charge. This does not alter the fact that ork troop choices are good and marines are bad.

The uber bike unit fails in my opinion, not because they are expensive, but because orks get a similar unit (ork nobs on bikes) which is cheaper _and _ count as troops.

GT Baltimore was won by a guy with two warbosses on bikes, two nob biker units, a unit of grots and a unit of shoota boyz. I don't think he cared about too much about spending points on uber units.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But those Nobs have 2 wounds each, the units are bigger AND cheaper.


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## Vashtek

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> But those Nobs have 2 wounds each, the units are bigger AND cheaper.


Didn't I just say that?

My point it that criticism of this unit purely because it is expensive is wrong. Criticism of this unit because it is not as good as another unit (costing the same or cheaper) in another army is justified.


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## Lord Reevan

I didn't say just tactical marines. Anybody who does that is wrong IMO. about 40% of the points should be in troops. The remaining 60% can be used on the things that can take out nobs, mega nobs, all the other stuff. I was saying that you shouldn't throw a big 300+ point unit taking out boyz. The basic guys should take out the basic guys. Not uber units going after the basic units. It's obvious you don't take bog all but tactical squads but they have their place. 

The rapid firing thing you said vashtek is kind of true but if you're smart with rhinos and the like you can get to them first.... Waiting for them to come to you is reactive and is inneffective compared to being active....


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## Vashtek

The problem is this:



Lord Reevan said:


> IThe basic guys should take out the basic guys. .


Our basic guys fail at taking out their basic guys (for the reasons I've outlined above). Give a marine squad a rhino (and I'm not saying this is a bad idea) puts the unit at over 200 points. For a 200 point unit, it is very easily dealt with in close combat and has poor shooting at anything that isn't within 12" and in the open. Once you start dishing out combi weapons, powerfists and razorbacks it starts to cost the same as 20 orks in a battlewagon. The matchups just get worse the more you spend on tactical marines.


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## Lord Reevan

Vashtek said:


> The problem is this:
> 
> 
> 
> Our basic guys fail at taking out their basic guys (for the reasons I've outlined above). Give a marine squad a rhino (and I'm not saying this is a bad idea) puts the unit at over 200 points. For a 200 point unit, it is very easily dealt with in close combat and has poor shooting at anything that isn't within 12" and in the open. Once you start dishing out combi weapons, powerfists and razorbacks it starts to cost the same as 20 orks in a battlewagon. The matchups just get worse the more you spend on tactical marines.


I don't know how people use their tactical squads but For mine they are very effective at the job I set them to do. either with no heavy weapon and a meltagun, or plasmagun and multimelta for objective holding. They get the job done and done well. 

I have a squad with all bolters, a meltagun and a rhino with 2 storm bolters. I run this and maybe another one just with plasma gun instead. These run up straight into the face of an enemy unit, deploy out of the rhino, rapid fire to shit and to any non MEQ that's a lot of death. I get them there safely, they clear out a squad or 2, depending on who I'm facing, then ship back into the rhino and away they go. The thing with them being charged is that I support them. if there's a big unit behind them ready to smack the crap ou of my tacs I have either terminators with an assault cannon , or dev squad aiming at them. Everything needs to be supported.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Just curious, do you play touranment level gaming Lord Reevan? The way you explain how you play, that is mutual support being a key in you tactics and the like surgest that you are.


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## Vashtek

Lord Reevan said:


> I don't know how people use their tactical squads but For mine they are very effective at the job I set them to do. either with no heavy weapon and a meltagun, or plasmagun and multimelta for objective holding. They get the job done and done well.
> 
> I have a squad with all bolters, a meltagun and a rhino with 2 storm bolters. I run this and maybe another one just with plasma gun instead. These run up straight into the face of an enemy unit, deploy out of the rhino, rapid fire to shit and to any non MEQ that's a lot of death. I get them there safely, they clear out a squad or 2, depending on who I'm facing, then ship back into the rhino and away they go. The thing with them being charged is that I support them. if there's a big unit behind them ready to smack the crap ou of my tacs I have either terminators with an assault cannon , or dev squad aiming at them. Everything needs to be supported.


Against which top tier list does this tactic actually work? Nidzilla? Nob bikers? Double Lash? Eldar falcon? Or in those games do you just park your 200 point units and rely on 2/3 of your list to play against their full army? 

All of these lists just laugh at bolter marines in rhinos. If you go to a top level tournament, you will have to beat 2 or 3 of those armies to finish in the top 10.

Even against an 'optimal' opponent like ork horde, each unit (assuming it even manages to get within 12") kills approximately 3 orks if they are in cover (which they pretty likely to be). Bear in mind orks wouldn't even need to charge this unit- they can just fire back with shootas or just ignore them as they are zero threat. Losing a 200point unit to kill 3 orks (plus the 2 or 3 they get when the orks charge) is not a good exchange whatever they are backed up with.

Bolter marines are fine in club games and against people who play the game 'by the spirit' of the army. All evidence goes to show that tactical marines fail in a tournament setting. If you have entered a tournament (or have known anyone else) with more than 50 participants, beaten some top tier lists and finished in the top 10 with the above tactic then I'm interested.


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## Lord Reevan

a few unofficial tournaments, not a GW sponsored one but everyone who was in had a very good grasp of tactics. There was around 15 in it. There was a lash list, a falcon list, a boyz list, no daemons or nob bikers though, and a few spamming marines lists and the like..... I came second against a thousand son army.



Vashtek said:


> do you just park your 200 point units and rely on 2/3 of your list to play against their full army?


Thing with this is you haven't listened to what I said. everything supports everything else. I won't have these guys attack any unit and just that unit, I will have support from several other units, I don't just park them infront of a unit and let the rest of my army fight the rest. They will all fight the one part of the opponents force. 
Divide and conquer through concentration of units. It will overwhelm sections of the enemy force and make them more reactive. The tactical squads are a frontal assault units that can wipe out certain units, get them close enough there will be nothing between them so no cover saves. IF you always get cover saves you either attack at the wrong time or use over packed tables


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## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> IF you always get cover saves you either attack at the wrong time or use over packed tables


No, that's incorrect I'm afraid. It's insanely easy to give yourself a cover save in 5th. Everything and its brother hands out a 4+ cover save like chocolate eggs on Easter. Remember that you only need to make sure that half or more of your unit is obscured to the enemy unit shooting at them to claim cover. In fact, it's possible for two units to always give one another cover saves if you put the models in the correct formation.


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## Lord Reevan

Katie Drake said:


> No, that's incorrect I'm afraid. It's insanely easy to give yourself a cover save in 5th. Everything and its brother hands out a 4+ cover save like chocolate eggs on Easter. Remember that you only need to make sure that half or more of your unit is obscured to the enemy unit shooting at them to claim cover. In fact, it's possible for two units to always give one another cover saves if you put the models in the correct formation.


Within 12" and placed correctly I rarely fight units in cover up close. Within 12" it's rarely happened.... Might be I get lucky but I rarely see it.... Even against hordes... get them close enough they can't hide behind anything.... More personal experience over fact though


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## Vashtek

Lord Reevan said:


> Thing with this is you haven't listened to what I said. everything supports everything else. I won't have these guys attack any unit and just that unit, I will have support from several other units, I don't just park them infront of a unit and let the rest of my army fight the rest. They will all fight the one part of the opponents force.


I have listened to what you have said. Weak statements like 'everything supports everything else' mean very little and just don't cut it. The opponent does it too and the statement doesn't help anyone formulate an army or get better at playing marines.

Supporting other units (whatever that means- placing models nearby?) is expected, every decent player does it, and is a given. The discussion is what units we can take in order to provide the best support in a tournament environment and also how best to use these units.


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## Lord Reevan

if every decent player does it how come there have been several lists given here that revolve around one unit? 'everything supports everything else' is basically the opposite of having one overcostly unit that I have seen a lot of around here. It might be a weak statement as it might be obvious to you but to others it really isn't... It does help people make lists by thinking about the army as a whole.

on the actual discussion you want I was explaining tactics for tactical squads as many people find them to be shit but a lot of people don't use them right.... They are crap on their own but take the army a single entity they can be made into a much better unit. 

What I would like to know is What you believe would be the best kind of advice for this thread? I find that taking units seperately never works as it takes the entire army to win the game.... Not seperate units acting independantly


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## Vashtek

I think this is part of the problem with the marine codex. Marines have ways to deal with tau, eldar, orks, lash, necrons but it is difficult for them to put a single list together that can deal with them all.

E.g. obliterators- good v horde + armour, falcons (noone can kill em), shooty carnifex (good against hordes + keep tanks pinned), wraithlords with bright lances (excellent v horde + armour), ork mobs (can kill pretty much anything that isn't an uber close combat unit with decent initiative) etc...

Marines don't really have a unit like any of the above. Land raider crusaders/ redeemers are great v orks and lash but are a liability againt tau and eldar. Assault terminators are a great answer to nob bikers but terrible at running after eldar tanks. Predators are great v slow moving hordes in the open but bad if there is much terrain as they are so static. Whirlwinds rock v static armies but are no good if you need to assault or they are all coming at you. Sternguard are great v MEQ but suffer against hordes.

The problem if you try to take a mix of everything is that it becomes very easy for the opponent to isolate and kill the units that threaten their army and then mob up the non- threatening units (which are the marine tactical squads most of the time...) The closest marines get to a truly flexible unit is terminators but they have been nerfed and chaos versions are probably just better (and cheaper).


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## Someguy

I think both of you are making some good points here, but you should probably stop arguing with each other (even if I do tend to enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy). Let's try to move this on rather than get personal.

Vashtek, you are probably setting the bar a bit too high. Advice that isn't necessarily useful to you, a scary tournament player, may still help others. Just because somebody hasn't come in the top 10 of a GT doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid. Advice that will help people play against their mates in stores or at home is fine.

Reevan, your approach of designing a whole army to work together rather than focussing on individual units is a good one, but I don't yet feel that we've arrived at a conclusion. I don't find the idea of a tactical squad with a multi melta defending an objective at all convincing I'm afraid.

I think it comes down to one of two things. Either tactical marines just don't work, so you have to make an army that mostly uses other stuff and then tries to sneak some troops onto objectives at the end, or we need to work out how to use tactical marines better. I think that a little of both probably applies. There's a potential third way, in which you get other scoring units like sternguard (pedro), bikes (bike captain) or inquisitorial allies of one sort or another.

I tend to think that tactical marines are usually very poor. The problem for me is that, as Vashtek says, they simply lose to most other troops on a point for point basis. You can certainly back them up with other stuff, but the other guy can back his own troops up as well.

Personally, I actually find it difficult to know what to put with tactical marines because I don't know what they are for. If they were really great at one job then I could buy a bunch of them to do that job, and buy something else to do the things they struggle at. That's the approach I've taken with Eldar, Tau and CSM, and it seems to work pretty well. Tactical marines don't seem to work well against hordes, MEQs, vehicles or MCs. All of those things just beat them point for point.

A good army is going to be composed of effective units doing the jobs they are good at. It will be powerful and flexible enough so that you are able to deal with all comers and win missions. I am really struggling to get past the problems with troops because troops are normally my starting point when designing an army. I wouldn't say that I give myself a target like Reevan's 40% on troops, but I want to take a bunch of them that work well and then basically fill in the gaps in their capabality with other stuff. Actual numbers depend on to what extent I need to fill in for them with other selections.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you need to look elsewhere to be competitive. I'll try some more with GKs and maybe Sisters.


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## Vashtek

Someguy said:


> Advice that will help people play against their mates in stores or at home is fine..


Tbh as I recall the whole point of this thread was trying to arrive a list +tactics that meant a marine army could get into the 10 of a GT...

I actually quite like grey knights but then I look at what orks can get for the same points and I despair. Sisters seem better than marines at the whole get of a rhino and rapid fire but I'm unsure if this is a great trick anyway and they are less good in CC and at long range.

At the moment I feel like I should just play marines for fun and forget about them as a serious tournament army.


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## Lord Reevan

Someguy said:


> I think both of you are making some good points here, but you should probably stop arguing with each other (even if I do tend to enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy). Let's try to move this on rather than get personal.


I wouldn't call that arguing.... More of a heated debate.... but yeah no point getting caught up on a variable opinion topic such as that.



Someguy said:


> Reevan, your approach of designing a whole army to work together rather than focussing on individual units is a good one, but I don't yet feel that we've arrived at a conclusion. I don't find the idea of a tactical squad with a multi melta defending an objective at all convincing I'm afraid.


I don't really use that in tournaments as it was more of an example here. It was me trying to show that everything can have a use.... Even multimeltas.... Plus I go more 1 full troop per 500pts but again example. But I digress....

But back on topic. If an army is to load up on The really good things and take as little troops possible what would be recommended as the bare minimum for holding and the like? I find that 2 5 man scout squads would get ripped up too easily and to make them any bit decent you'd be investing in a HQ that isn't all that effective. 5 man tactical squads can't take special weapons but the sergeant can. Plus they'd be keeping the price down a fair bit. 10 man squads with special and heavy would need a good few more points to make them better but are they worth that increased price? Which would be better?


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## sooch

Lord Reevan said:


> I wouldn't call that arguing.... More of a heated debate.... but yeah no point getting caught up on a variable opinion topic such as that.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really use that in tournaments as it was more of an example here. It was me trying to show that everything can have a use.... Even multimeltas.... Plus I go more 1 full troop per 500pts but again example. But I digress....
> 
> But back on topic. If an army is to load up on The really good things and take as little troops possible what would be recommended as the bare minimum for holding and the like? I find that 2 5 man scout squads would get ripped up too easily and to make them any bit decent you'd be investing in a HQ that isn't all that effective. 5 man tactical squads can't take special weapons but the sergeant can. Plus they'd be keeping the price down a fair bit. 10 man squads with special and heavy would need a good few more points to make them better but are they worth that increased price? Which would be better?


A 5 man scout squad beats a 5 man marine squad in almost every respect when it comes to holding down a home objective. Although they have a 4+ natural save, they can get a 2+ go-to-ground save used in conjunction with camo cloaks. Add that to the fact that a 5 man sniper squad can take a heavy weapon and a 5 man marine squad cannot, and that sniper rifles outrange bolters hugely (they'll be hanging back anyways, so even if bolters are stronger it is unlikely that an opponent will come within 12" unless they're about to wipe you off the objective). 5 man sniper scout teams > 5 man tac squad teams. I mean seriously...bolters vs sniper rifles + hellfire shells or a missile launcher for 10 more points? Not even debatable. Scouts are much more durable to shooting, and are much better at contributing to the battle while staying far enough to not get wiped off your objective.

@Vash: Yes, the SM command bikers is not as tough as the nob biker unit, I agree. It does however have the advantage of being able to be screened behind the two land raider crusaders to increase its survivability, it also attacks at I5 with rerolls to wound at S5 (albeit with less PK/pfist attacks), and it is supported by landraiders and sternguard. I totally appreciate where you're coming from when you say that orks outdo our troops...its what I have been trying to say to all these people preaching pick'n'mix 40% troop armies. Its betting on a slow horse and expecting it to win.


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## Vaz

All it takes is an Assault squad with Flamers to clear them off. Heavy Flamer Sternguard and 5 Flamer Chosen can make a real mess of your day.

There are some good points, and I'll hopefully address them when I go home tomorrow.


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## sooch

Vaz said:


> All it takes is an Assault squad with Flamers to clear them off. Heavy Flamer Sternguard and 5 Flamer Chosen can make a real mess of your day.
> 
> There are some good points, and I'll hopefully address them when I go home tomorrow.


To be honest, those 3 units would murder both 5 tacs and 5 scouts...the tacs would just be wiped out a little less (that is to say, they would all still die but not quite as horribly). At least teh scouts would have contributed before they died a horrible death.


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## godzy

talking of scouts, I thought it over a bit, and the land speeder storm has some potential. taking five scouts, enables you a last turn objective capture. being open top makes it fragile, but allows all models to fire. it can scout ahead, getting closer for a flaming, tank poping or even assaulting with CCW&BP scouts. 255 should get you 10 scouts into the fry, vet with a power weapon, just after the speeders spit out two HF templates. 280 can get you another power weapon vet, making them two five scout squads. the only problem with this speeder, is that you can have only three 
we need to think out of the box. 24 str4 and 8 PW attacks are still not a match for the opposition, but costs as much as an average rhino raiding tactical squad.


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## sooch

Here is a list that I feel plays more to the strength of the marine book (i.e. stupidly strong storm shields), while keeping 4 scoring units up. The command bikers got swapped out for 5 TH/SS termies that will ride in a raider with Kantor, kicking one of the sternguard into a rhino with a dozer blade (5 points lying around, someone give me something better to spend it on). 2 units of scouts in LS storms with power weapons and meltabombs, and a multimelta on the LS storm for more multimelta fun. Kantor's raider gets extra armor because he needs to be where you need him, whenever you need him.

1750 - Making Marines Work - Space Marines

*HQ*

Pedro [email protected]

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

8 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas, Rhino, Dozerblade]@275pts

8 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas]@240pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [5x Bolt Pistol, 4x Shotgun, 1x Power Weapon, 1x Meltabomb]@95pts

5 Scouts [5x Bolt Pistol, 4x Shotgun, 1x Power Weapon, 1x Meltabomb]@95pts

*Fast Attack*

Land Speeder Storm [Multimelta]@65pts

Land Speeder Storm [Multimelta]@65pts

*Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor]@275pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Total Points_1750

If you don't like the idea of scouts in storms, just drop the storms and give the scouts 4x SR/1x ML, and use the extra points to buff the sternguard up to 10 each. Assault termies with 4A each on the charge are quite scary, and probably more cost-effective than the bike squad I had in there before.


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## Lord Reevan

sooch said:


> A 5 man scout squad beats a 5 man marine squad in almost every respect when it comes to holding down a home objective. Although they have a 4+ natural save, they can get a 2+ go-to-ground save used in conjunction with camo cloaks. Add that to the fact that a 5 man sniper squad can take a heavy weapon and a 5 man marine squad cannot, and that sniper rifles outrange bolters hugely (they'll be hanging back anyways, so even if bolters are stronger it is unlikely that an opponent will come within 12" unless they're about to wipe you off the objective). 5 man sniper scout teams > 5 man tac squad teams. I mean seriously...bolters vs sniper rifles + hellfire shells or a missile launcher for 10 more points? Not even debatable. Scouts are much more durable to shooting, and are much better at contributing to the battle while staying far enough to not get wiped off your objective.


Thing wit hthis is you're relying on going to ground to give them anything decent and when they have that they're not firing so the whole sniper rifles beats bolters is kind of moot then. And I was on about objectives in general. holding the home ones alone won't win you a game.... Might draw but then there'd be long range, deepstriking, fast moving units that'll get to the scouts and get rid of your home advantage..... Granted they're good for planting there if you don't plan on doing anything else with them but it can be countered.... Your list above seems more interesting though...


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## sooch

Lord Reevan said:


> Thing wit hthis is you're relying on going to ground to give them anything decent and when they have that they're not firing so the whole sniper rifles beats bolters is kind of moot then. And I was on about objectives in general. holding the home ones alone won't win you a game.... Might draw but then there'd be long range, deepstriking, fast moving units that'll get to the scouts and get rid of your home advantage..... Granted they're good for planting there if you don't plan on doing anything else with them but it can be countered.... Your list above seems more interesting though...


They get 3+'s without going to ground, which is better than a marine gets in cover and equal to a marine in the open (obviously a marines save in the open can be negated though). Obviously the 2+ is nice but not really necessary if someone is firing a lascannon or a krak missile at me.

Yeah that list is interesting....for a number of reasons. I'm not sure if heavy flamers might be better on the storms or not....considering that yes it will be pretty great at killing orks and fire warriors, but at the cost of less ranged anti-tank and the difficulty of placing a flame template when scouts are in front and preparing to assault.


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## durian

the only prob i can see is that you only have 32 models in 1750 pts but with those storm shields and stern gaurd it makes it a intresting list nonetheless

cool list 

Durian


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## Wusword77

sooch cool list. I'm gonna try it against a buddy's lash list but I got a question for ya. Ideas on tactics for the list?

Gonna hang back one scout squad for holding an objective?

Deep Strike in with them to contest an objective?

Also why use the crusader over either of the other varients? You can fire them from a distance and you get a good amount of shots but for horde armies wouldn't swapping one of them out for a redeemer be better?

just food for thought.


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## Underground Heretic

The major advantage of the Crusader against the Redeemer is its range. Not counting the assault cannon and purchasable multi-melta that they both have, the Redeemer has a flame template range while the Crusader has 24". The Crusader's Hurricane Bolters are twin-linked and AP 5. Against true hordes (Orks, Nids) AP 5 is enough to pierce their armor. The Redeemer, like most Eldar units, seems to be geared against killing its own army. I would recommend the Redeemer against MEQ hordes, best for tank shocking a cult troop unit (berserkers, noise marines, Thousand Sons and plague marines) and then toasting them.


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## Cole Deschain

A Crusader can move and fire every single weapon it carries. That, sir, is how one takes it to a horde army.


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## sooch

Wusword77 said:


> sooch cool list. I'm gonna try it against a buddy's lash list but I got a question for ya. Ideas on tactics for the list?
> 
> Gonna hang back one scout squad for holding an objective?
> 
> Deep Strike in with them to contest an objective?
> 
> Also why use the crusader over either of the other varients? You can fire them from a distance and you get a good amount of shots but for horde armies wouldn't swapping one of them out for a redeemer be better?
> 
> just food for thought.


Scouts will probably go in reserves in their speeders...depending on how much enemy armor is on the table, how much enemy anti-armor is on the table, which turn I got, and how good at assault the enemy is. Remember you can also deploy the scouts out of the transport, just sitting on an objective. On capture/control yeah I'd probably put my home objective behind some LoS blocking terrain in most cases and hide a unit of the scouts, freeing up the storm to contest the enemy objective or melt some armor along with a second storm filled with scouts for the opponent's objective. 

I think that with a little bit of luck you could wipe out his lash army. Low numbers makes him a good candidate for focussed dakka (i.e.LRC and sternguard, lol). The daemon princes should drop to the sternguard. Remember that if he's within 24" of your vehicles then you can rapid fire his princes with wounds on 2+ammo, and he won't like that. Careful not to clump too hard against oblits and their plasma cannons, try to stick in area terrain when you disembark to rapid fire so that you can get the 4+ cover. I would probably stick the termies in the EA land raider and rush the plague marines with them. Ignoring FNP and wounding them on 2+ is a good thing. Hide the sternguard rhino behind the land raider, and when you get within 12" of the oblits fire your meltas at them. Scouts should fly around and help where needed. Lash oblits are a 4th edition army...you shouldn't have problems.

The posters above me did a good job of explaining why I put a LRC over the other variants. Another reason is that it is very difficult to place the flame templates from a redeemer in an optimal position when you're trying to at the same time disembark your sternguard so that they can all see and rapid fire.

Just found a quote from goatboy over at BoLS that sums up my thoughts on 5th ed pretty well:



[email protected] said:


> What I've been seeing lately, is a push to overload on troops in order to get objectives instead of focusing on beating your opponent to a blood pulp. These troops are substandard when compared to a lot of armies other choices and thus weakening the army limiting its killing potential. People are too fixated on trying to hold objectives, instead of looking at bringing the aggression and trying to kill everything that moves.


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## The Son of Horus

The way you fight a horde army with Space Marines really has nothing to do with what you bring, although the Crusader is certainly geared towards pest control. The trick to dealing with a horde is to isolate individual units and neutralize them, then move on to the next. If you attack several units, you'll find you don't do enough to lower any of them as threats in a meaningful way. Conversely, the way you fight against that tactic is to make sure you present multiple immediate threats so that the Space Marine player is forced to try to neutralize multiple targets, or forfeit a unit of their own to hold off one of your squads while they deal with another.

This whole thread is, in my opinion, a whole bucket full of fail. If you can't win with Space Marines, then you're doing something really wrong. People are having trouble with them because there aren't a lot of obvious little combination gimmicks that are what most "tournament" gamers focus upon. Pedro Kantor's Sternguard posse is really about it, and in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't really change how the army plays-- it just makes the Sternguard scoring units. 

Space Marines only work if you're able to bring an overwhelming force to bear at a single point, whether it be against a single large unit in a horde army, a weak point in a firing line, or what have you. You don't have the numbers to sit and piss around-- every bolter should be firing every turn, and if you can't do anything with the bolters because you're aiming at a target that won't be hurt by them, then you shouldn't be shooting at that target unless there are no more viable targets.

You can't try to bring some fluffless gimmick, either. It doesn't work. If you don't bring a solid mix of Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, and either Devastator Squads or Predators and the like, you're not going to do well. The Assault Squads dictate where the battle is going to take place on the table; the Tactical Squads follow up the Assault Squads' lead and form a 'middle ground' where they can respond to the opponent's movements; and the Devastators or fire support armour neutralizes heavy static threats at range or helps soften targets before the Assault Squads' hammer blow. If an element of that is missing, the army has an obvious weakness; and anyone paying attention to what's going on is going to exploit that weakness. You can get away with having a shortcoming in an army where you've got 120 models in 2000 points; but you can't afford to have an obvious weakness when you bring sixty models to the table. 

People also tend to get hung up about a weapon's armor piercing value. Beating a target's armor is nice, but it's not something you should rely on at the expense of all else. This isn't rock-paper-scissors, and focusing on beating a target's armor with an appropriately low-AP weapon is just playing rock-paper-scissors in the grand scheme of things. Plasma rifle beats power armour; bolter beats flak jacket; etc. Instead, consider the volume of fire you're putting out relative to the number of models in the target unit. Even against Space Marines, the most reliable way to neutralize a squad is by making sure you make them deal with a large number of successful to-wound rolls. Space Marines fail armor saves, and they're going to fail a lot more armor saves than a couple plasma rifles are going to cause wounds for. 

Be prepared to be flexible-- Space Marines aren't the fastest army out there, so you may have to react to your opponent's movements rather than dictating the flow of battle yourself. Heavy bolters and missile launchers both are invaluable tools to bring, even if you never fire them. They're free these days, and both are capable of helping with crowd control. The missile launcher is probably the better "tournament" weapon, just because it has the anti-armour round available to it, but most of the time, a krak missile isn't going to do you a lot of good relative to a frag missile when you're firing bolters at a target. 

As for the Crusader vs. Redeemer debate-- the Crusader is a superior gunboat, by far. However, the Redeemer is a better linebreaker. The Redeemer's flamestorm cannons let it clear squads away from where it deploys its payload in a way that the Crusader really can't. With the Crusader, you have to focus your fire on squads you expect to react to the assault the Crusader delivers as it advances; with the Redeemer, you have the luxury of flaming the immediate threats so that (presumably) the Terminators inside are able to step out and not be faced with numerous counterassaults following their sweeping the immediate area in melee. The Redeemer isn't able to really drive off and act as an anti-infantry gunboat after it has unloaded its cargo the way the Crusader can, though-- it ideally has to keep pace with the unloaded squad and support it by either softening or clearing enemy units with its flamers before its cargo finishes the next unit off in assault. It falls down to personal preference-- both really do have their merits. It's just a question of how many points you want to commit to a single purpose. If you've wrapped up 400 points in the squad that the Land Raider is carrying, you might as well protect your investment with the Redeemer. The Crusader is the better all-rounder, though, since it's able to deliver the assault and then act in support of the rest of the army.


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## Hashulaman

I feel no space marine army is complete without a Dreadnought or Terminators. Unless for fluff reasons they are not old enough to have one, you should go with one. Terminators are also great, but i prefer the DreadMy brother tends to go vehicle heavy and he's lost the last 3 games against my CSM army. I guess if you are new at SM, rhinos aside you shouldn't use many armoured units.


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## Vashtek

The Son of Horus said:


> This whole thread is, in my opinion, a whole bucket full of fail. If you can't win with Space Marines, then you're doing something really wrong. People are having trouble with them because there aren't a lot of obvious little combination gimmicks that are what most "tournament" gamers focus upon.


This is wrong. This is not about winning with Space Marines, this is about making marines competitive with top tier lists at the moment which, like it or not, continue to be successful at tournaments. I continue to win with marines, but winning against top players with 

I've taken the previous codex to GTs with balanced lists and did fine with it, qualifying as the highest marine player in 1 in 14th and qualifying in another at around 25th. 

I wanted to like the new codex but everything seemed overcosted, and with several previously good options such as terminators, librarians, tornados, tactical marines nerfed. The tournament results so far this year bear this out with marine players dominating the bottom half. See someguys' thread in this forum for how badly marines have performed.

On sooch's list: I like it. It has answers to a whole bunch of problems. I hate spending 175 points on Pedro as stubborn is such a crappy rule to give to Sternguard but the +1A and troop choice is very difficult to say no to.

I'd be tempted to go with 1 redeemer and 1 crusader though as I've seen how devastating redeemers can be and how ineffective crusaders can be against stuff in cover. I'd also go with heavy flamers on the storms (as they are BS3) and give combi meltas to the scout sargeants.


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## Someguy

Sorry TSoH but I can't agree that this is a fail thread. It has a lot of good suggestions to deal with real problems. A lot of the other stuff you talk about is useful, so thanks for that.

I also agree that Sooch’s list is a very good one. I think that, perhaps with some refinement after field testing, it shows a successful way to go. Going forward with two land raiders, assault termies with bonus attacks from Pedro and all that close range shootiness from the sternguard should cause a real impact. The other guy's heavy support is going to have problems if you get to send your scouts into them on turn one. You seem lash-proof, since everyone can get in a transport, and you should be able to give Nob Bikers a real run for their money. Even most Tau and Eldar players will really struggle to stop two land raiders if they charge forward popping smoke, especially if you go first and put some of their heavy weps in CC.

I agree with Vashtek that one redeemer and one crusader probably makes more sense than two crusaders. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but both are very good, so have both!

The makeup and equipment of the scouts and sternguard could probably use some attention I think. On the whole I think you have more meltas than you need and not enough flamers and plasma. Sometimes it's nice to be able to just gun down a unit of plague marines or a carnifex, and this is done with plasma guns rapid firing.

I’d make the sterns into a squad of 10 and 6 (or maybe 10+5 to save some points) so that I had the option of combat squadding the 10 man squad for an extra unit if needed. I’d look carefully at their weapons because I don’t think that 16 combi-meltas is really optimal. Personally I would mix in a couple of combi flamers and plasma guns to deal with hordes and MCs. I would also consider whether they should pack some heavy flamers, or maybe even plasma cannons in the 10 man squad.

Heavy flamers on the storms are what I’d go for as well, since they are then a real threat to hordes (which you aren’t going to charge the scouts at in any case).

If there’s one thing you lack it’s a unit that is happy to sit on your own objective in take and hold games. All your scoring units have effective, but short ranged weapons, and you don’t want to have a unit sitting back doing nothing. The solution for this that I’d use would be to give one of your scout units sniper rifles. That doesn’t actually make them any worse in cc than if they have shotguns and they can still fire their bolt pistols from the back of the storm. I have given the sergeant of my scout team a power fist rather than melta bombs, so that he can wreck enemy tanks if he gets a first turn charge.

Bear in mind also that firing from a moving transport is a lot harder now. You can’t fire if it goes over 6”, as I understand it. To be honest, the scouts aren’t going to shoot all that much stuff dead anyway.

The issue I have with scouts in a storm is that, while they are a really good lightning strike unit, they don’t look all that likely to live through games. They also cost about the same as a tactical squad once you pay for their ride. I think I’ll probably use one squad of scouts in a storm, with rifles and a power fist and a flamer on the storm, and have a tactical squad with a plasma cannon as my second troops choice. That way I can charge the scouts off at a tank or unit of obliterators if needed, but I can also have them sit back in some solid cover in annihilation games.


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## fett14622

What would you guys think about Predators with twin linked lascannons and side heavy bolter? They can deal with anti tank and hords.


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## Katie Drake

fett14622 said:


> What would you guys think about Predators with twin linked lascannons and side heavy bolter? They can deal with anti tank and hords.


I think it worked well in the last Codex, but in this new book I feel that if one is to take a Predator they should specialize. Either the super cheap autocannon and heavy bolters or the (not cheap) triple lascannon special. Unfortunately the autocannon and heavy bolter variant suffers because cover saves are so abundant, so it usually pays to just go all out and hunt tanks with the lascannons.


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## Someguy

I used to use those in 4th edition, basically as you describe, but not now that they can't move and shoot. Also, lascannons aren't as good at killing enemy tanks now. They weren't fantastic in 4th even, as their side armour is weak. To me, they are an example of one of many things that used to work well in the marine book, but which now don't work at all.

If you do want tanks, I would suggest going with razorbacks instead. They are weaker individually but you can get two for the cost of a lascannon-equipped predator and you can use them to move your guys around if you need to.


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## Katie Drake

Someguy said:


> If you do want tanks, I would suggest going with razorbacks instead. They are weaker individually but you can get two for the cost of a lascannon-equipped predator and you can use them to move your guys around if you need to.


So true, Razorbacks are awesome, especially with a lascannon and plasma guns. ^_^


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## sooch

TSoH said:


> The way you fight a horde army with Space Marines really has nothing to do with what you bring, although the Crusader is certainly geared towards pest control. The trick to dealing with a horde is to isolate individual units and neutralize them, then move on to the next. If you attack several units, you'll find you don't do enough to lower any of them as threats in a meaningful way. Conversely, the way you fight against that tactic is to make sure you present multiple immediate threats so that the Space Marine player is forced to try to neutralize multiple targets, or forfeit a unit of their own to hold off one of your squads while they deal with another.


Certainly I agree that fighting a horde army requires specific tactics, such as the ones you mention of isolation and focus fire. But at the same time, you cannot argue that unit choice "really has nothing to do with what you bring," especially if in the next sentence you praise the crusader for being able to handle horde. A squad of devastators with 4 ML will do much better against horde than a squad of devastators with 4 lascannons, and I'm fairly sure you will agree with this.



TSoH said:


> This whole thread is, in my opinion, a whole bucket full of fail. If you can't win with Space Marines, then you're doing something really wrong. People are having trouble with them because there aren't a lot of obvious little combination gimmicks that are what most "tournament" gamers focus upon. Pedro Kantor's Sternguard posse is really about it, and in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't really change how the army plays-- it just makes the Sternguard scoring units.


Funny enough, I would have respected the rest of your post and your opinion if you didn't drop this bomb in the second paragraph. This thread seems to be full of 2 types of people: those wanting to help and be constructive such as vash and someguy and others, and then those who come in here on a soapbox and act like they're the only ones who know how to play 40k. Sternguard/Kantor are the only strong SM list? Give me a break. Lysander with GK? Vulkan with sisters? Vulkan with TH/SS termies? Chaplain with assault termies? 6 ironclads/2 masters of the forge? We SM players have a lot of options, it's just about exploring them and that's what this thread is for.



TSoH said:


> Space Marines only work if you're able to bring an overwhelming force to bear at a single point, whether it be against a single large unit in a horde army, a weak point in a firing line, or what have you. You don't have the numbers to sit and piss around-- every bolter should be firing every turn, and if you can't do anything with the bolters because you're aiming at a target that won't be hurt by them, then you shouldn't be shooting at that target unless there are no more viable targets.


This is interesting, I'm sure nobody's thought of this before. Get off your high horse.

This thread is for people who need help making effective space marine lists, not for people who need help with battle philosophy. Make a new thread, because it doesn't belong here.



TSoH said:


> You can't try to bring some fluffless gimmick, either. It doesn't work. If you don't bring a solid mix of Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, and either Devastator Squads or Predators and the like, you're not going to do well. The Assault Squads dictate where the battle is going to take place on the table; the Tactical Squads follow up the Assault Squads' lead and form a 'middle ground' where they can respond to the opponent's movements; and the Devastators or fire support armour neutralizes heavy static threats at range or helps soften targets before the Assault Squads' hammer blow. If an element of that is missing, the army has an obvious weakness; and anyone paying attention to what's going on is going to exploit that weakness. You can get away with having a shortcoming in an army where you've got 120 models in 2000 points; but you can't afford to have an obvious weakness when you bring sixty models to the table.


"Fluffless gimmick." So all of a sudden if you don't have a paragraph written up about your army you're playing a gimmick? Give me a break. Just because orks work when you play with the fluff (max boyz), it doesn't mean that marines do. Tactical squads blow. Bolters are ass, and paying 170pts for a heavy and special weapon is nuts. The strength in the SM list is coming from the elite units, so why play to your weaknesses (tactical squads) when you can play to your strengths? I'd like to see you play a game using the tactics you speak of...and watch you get frustrated as your carefully thought out strategies make little impact on the table when when 40k has so much less strategy involved in winning than fantasy. Your hammer unit will get ripped by my hammer unit (terminators). Your couple of preds or devastators will not be able to touch my raiders, and I'll run around rapid firing your silly 5 man combat squads to death with crusaders, or sternguard. With the majority of your army in tactical marines, you'll lack the heavy weapons to take down my raiders or the terminators.



TSoH said:


> People also tend to get hung up about a weapon's armor piercing value. Beating a target's armor is nice, but it's not something you should rely on at the expense of all else. This isn't rock-paper-scissors, and focusing on beating a target's armor with an appropriately low-AP weapon is just playing rock-paper-scissors in the grand scheme of things. Plasma rifle beats power armour; bolter beats flak jacket; etc. Instead, consider the volume of fire you're putting out relative to the number of models in the target unit. Even against Space Marines, the most reliable way to neutralize a squad is by making sure you make them deal with a large number of successful to-wound rolls. Space Marines fail armor saves, and they're going to fail a lot more armor saves than a couple plasma rifles are going to cause wounds for.


"People", again referring to everyone but yourself. Man, it must be nice being the only one who knows anything about 40k. Yeah volume of fire is cool, and I'm fairly sure that's what bolters that wound on 2+ are, and as are LRC. You left out the most effective way of neutralizing a squad, and that's to bring to the table a unit that it can't kill or stay out of its range. In the case of a player bringing 40% tactical squads to the table, it's quite easy to stay out of bolter range (even within 24" it's not a big deal, bolters are weaksauce) or bring some armor. You are right about volume of fire, especially in 5th where everything gets cover things like plasma no longer really have a use. 



TSoH said:


> Be prepared to be flexible-- Space Marines aren't the fastest army out there, so you may have to react to your opponent's movements rather than dictating the flow of battle yourself. Heavy bolters and missile launchers both are invaluable tools to bring, even if you never fire them. They're free these days, and both are capable of helping with crowd control. The missile launcher is probably the better "tournament" weapon, just because it has the anti-armour round available to it, but most of the time, a krak missile isn't going to do you a lot of good relative to a frag missile when you're firing bolters at a target.


You're generalizing heavily about space marines here. Our units have access to super cheap 35pt transports that increase maneuverability greatly. Not only that, but since everything can run in 5th you can end up moving 20" with a transport and a good run move. I'm not sure if I understand how heavy weapons can be useful if you don't fire them. Missile launchers are just way more versatile than a heavy bolter. The krak/frag option was great in 4th, and now it's better in 5th due to blast rules (only thing is it's not quite as good at killing armor now).



TSoH said:


> As for the Crusader vs. Redeemer debate-- the Crusader is a superior gunboat, by far. However, the Redeemer is a better linebreaker. The Redeemer's flamestorm cannons let it clear squads away from where it deploys its payload in a way that the Crusader really can't. With the Crusader, you have to focus your fire on squads you expect to react to the assault the Crusader delivers as it advances; with the Redeemer, you have the luxury of flaming the immediate threats so that (presumably) the Terminators inside are able to step out and not be faced with numerous counterassaults following their sweeping the immediate area in melee. The Redeemer isn't able to really drive off and act as an anti-infantry gunboat after it has unloaded its cargo the way the Crusader can, though-- it ideally has to keep pace with the unloaded squad and support it by either softening or clearing enemy units with its flamers before its cargo finishes the next unit off in assault. It falls down to personal preference-- both really do have their merits. It's just a question of how many points you want to commit to a single purpose. If you've wrapped up 400 points in the squad that the Land Raider is carrying, you might as well protect your investment with the Redeemer. The Crusader is the better all-rounder, though, since it's able to deliver the assault and then act in support of the rest of the army.
> Hand To Hand/Close Combat - Assault (p33 40k 5th)


How do you plan on killing the counter assault units that in all likelyhood are up to 12" away with a flamer template, while at the same time not hit any of the newly disembarked terminators? Crusaders allow you to focus fire a lot better than a redeemer simply because the two flamers will more often than not be unable to hit the same target (unless they're wrapped by an ork boy squad or something). 



Vashtek said:


> This is wrong. This is not about winning with Space Marines, this is about making marines competitive with top tier lists at the moment which, like it or not, continue to be successful at tournaments. I continue to win with marines, but winning against top players with
> 
> I've taken the previous codex to GTs with balanced lists and did fine with it, qualifying as the highest marine player in 1 in 14th and qualifying in another at around 25th.
> 
> I wanted to like the new codex but everything seemed overcosted, and with several previously good options such as terminators, librarians, tornados, tactical marines nerfed. The tournament results so far this year bear this out with marine players dominating the bottom half. See someguys' thread in this forum for how badly marines have performed.
> 
> On sooch's list: I like it. It has answers to a whole bunch of problems. I hate spending 175 points on Pedro as stubborn is such a crappy rule to give to Sternguard but the +1A and troop choice is very difficult to say no to.
> 
> I'd be tempted to go with 1 redeemer and 1 crusader though as I've seen how devastating redeemers can be and how ineffective crusaders can be against stuff in cover. I'd also go with heavy flamers on the storms (as they are BS3) and give combi meltas to the scout sargeants.


Thanks for the constructive criticism. Yes, stubborn is bad most of the time, but I think that in this list it could work. If someone charges my sternguard with something that is able to take them on (base 3A with pedro nearby makes them no pushover), then stubborn will help to tarpit them until my beater unit of pedro/termies arrives. The other option is to drop pedro, and take vulkan instead to mastercraft 5 thunder hammers, 18 melta weapons, and the heavy flamers on the storms, leaving you with once again just the scouts to score. I like the idea of heavy flamers on the storms, with combi meltas on the sergeants instead (hit on 3+, close range effectiveness helped out by the fact that the speeder can infiltrate and move 12").

Again, the reason for taking a crusader over a redeemer is that a crusader can focus fire much better than a redeemer. Moving 6" and firing every weapon is HUGE, considering that a redeemer moving 6" will only get to fire one flamestorm at most (due to the redeemer itself blockign LoS to the other flamestorm) and then one other weapon. Not to mention the fact that crusaders can also put out more shots at 24" due to hurricane bolters, if the enemy wants to play keep away you can bring the pain still.



Someguy said:


> Sorry TSoH but I can't agree that this is a fail thread. It has a lot of good suggestions to deal with real problems. A lot of the other stuff you talk about is useful, so thanks for that.
> 
> I also agree that Sooch’s list is a very good one. I think that, perhaps with some refinement after field testing, it shows a successful way to go. Going forward with two land raiders, assault termies with bonus attacks from Pedro and all that close range shootiness from the sternguard should cause a real impact. The other guy's heavy support is going to have problems if you get to send your scouts into them on turn one. You seem lash-proof, since everyone can get in a transport, and you should be able to give Nob Bikers a real run for their money. Even most Tau and Eldar players will really struggle to stop two land raiders if they charge forward popping smoke, especially if you go first and put some of their heavy weps in CC.
> 
> I agree with Vashtek that one redeemer and one crusader probably makes more sense than two crusaders. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but both are very good, so have both!


See my redeemer vs. crusader thoughts above. The redeemer is cool, but the crusader just fits this list a bit better due to range.



Someguy said:


> The makeup and equipment of the scouts and sternguard could probably use some attention I think. On the whole I think you have more meltas than you need and not enough flamers and plasma. Sometimes it's nice to be able to just gun down a unit of plague marines or a carnifex, and this is done with plasma guns rapid firing.


It takes about 4 meltas to take down a tank. 3 hit, around 2 pen depending on AV, and even with 2 penetrating results you're not guaranteed a kill but your chances are pretty good. Although I agree that plasmas were the way to go in 4th, in 5th those plague marines are likely sitting in area terrain and getting that 4+ cover. In 5th we get TH/SS termies that are uber, so I wouldn't even bother shooting sternguard at them, I'd just sic some terminators on his nurgle ass. Carnifexes can be brought down with hellfire rounds, since they only have a 3+ save and no FNP.



Someguy said:


> I’d make the sterns into a squad of 10 and 6 (or maybe 10+5 to save some points) so that I had the option of combat squadding the 10 man squad for an extra unit if needed. I’d look carefully at their weapons because I don’t think that 16 combi-meltas is really optimal. Personally I would mix in a couple of combi flamers and plasma guns to deal with hordes and MCs. I would also consider whether they should pack some heavy flamers, or maybe even plasma cannons in the 10 man squad.


The thing about combat squadding is that then 5 sterns won't have a transport. Combat squadding is fine for a tac squad with a heavy weapon, but for sternguard who NEED to be up close and personal, I feel like combat squadding just nullifies a lot of their effectiveness. I also like symmetrical lists 

Combi flamers are S4 AP5, the same profile as cover ignoring rounds from the sternguard. I feel that this is redundant. Against hordes I probably won't be disembarking from my LR's, because even if I wipe one mob with combi flamers and the like, there will be another to charge me and get stuck in. Combi plasmas get their effectiveness raped by coverhammer/5th edition, and hellfire rounds are great for MC anyways. Plasma cannons suffer from the same deal as plasma guns, and that's cover. Heavy flamers are interesting though, they may be fun to try out. 

Combi meltas are there because although I have horde control (crusaders, flamers on storms), elite unit control (TH/SS hitsquad), I only have 2 multimeltas and 2 assault cannons plus meltabombs on the scouts to deal with armor.



Someguy said:


> Heavy flamers on the storms are what I’d go for as well, since they are then a real threat to hordes (which you aren’t going to charge the scouts at in any case).


Yeah I'll switch them to heavy flamers as well.



Someguy said:


> If there’s one thing you lack it’s a unit that is happy to sit on your own objective in take and hold games. All your scoring units have effective, but short ranged weapons, and you don’t want to have a unit sitting back doing nothing. The solution for this that I’d use would be to give one of your scout units sniper rifles. That doesn’t actually make them any worse in cc than if they have shotguns and they can still fire their bolt pistols from the back of the storm. I have given the sergeant of my scout team a power fist rather than melta bombs, so that he can wreck enemy tanks if he gets a first turn charge.


Yeah I was seriously debating just putting the sniper loadout on the scouts (cloaks and everything) so that if needed they can sit back if needed. Also meltabombs > Pfist...idk where you're getting this from. Same base strength, but meltabombs get 2d6 for penetration while the pfist gets only 1d6.



Someguy said:


> Bear in mind also that firing from a moving transport is a lot harder now. You can’t fire if it goes over 6”, as I understand it. To be honest, the scouts aren’t going to shoot all that much stuff dead anyway.
> 
> The issue I have with scouts in a storm is that, while they are a really good lightning strike unit, they don’t look all that likely to live through games. They also cost about the same as a tactical squad once you pay for their ride. I think I’ll probably use one squad of scouts in a storm, with rifles and a power fist and a flamer on the storm, and have a tactical squad with a plasma cannon as my second troops choice. That way I can charge the scouts off at a tank or unit of obliterators if needed, but I can also have them sit back in some solid cover in annihilation games.


Yeah you can't really shoot stuff from the vehicle. What I would do instead is move 12" with the storm, disembark 2", fire shotguns to soften the unit up for the charge, and then proceed to charge. Pistols would work as well I guess if they had Sniper Rifles. So it sounds like a good change would be to swap the shotgun scouts for scouts with missile launcher/3x SR/power weapon/meltabomb....mixing cc/range elements feels like such blasphemy to me as a tyranid player lol. NEVER PUT SCYTHING TALONS ON A TYRANT WITH VENOM CANNON.

Power fists on scouts aren't so good because they're a small unit of 5, and the champ could die due to wound allocation before he gets to attack. The power sword/meltabomb in this case wins out. Meltabombs are stronger than pfists for blowing up tanks, and the psword/meltabomb combo is 5pts cheaper. 

Again, not a fan of the plasma_____ type weapons. 



fett14622 said:


> What would you guys think about Predators with twin linked lascannons and side heavy bolter? They can deal with anti tank and hords.


Yes but they can do neither effectively. Hordes couldnt care less about 2 heavy bolters, and lists with raiders couldn't care less about a single lascannon. In 5th, it's all about the melta.

@Katie Drake: I tried out the las/plas variant, I found that the lascannon needs to be twin linked or else it's prone to missing whenever you need it most. Even twin linked it misses from time to time. 
*
1750 - Making Marines Work v2.o - Space Marines*

*HQ*

Pedro [email protected]

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

8 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas, Rhino]@275pts

8 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas]@240pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [4x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Weapon, 1x Meltabomb, 5x Camo Cloaks]@110pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power weapon in order to keep his sniper rifle**

5 Scouts [5x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Weapon, 1x Meltabomb, 5x Camo Cloaks]@110pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power weapon in order to keep his sniper rifle**

*Fast Attack*

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

*Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Total Points_1750

Phew...long post. :so_happy:


----------



## Someguy

In comparing power fists and melta bombs, you must not forget that the power fist gets multiple attacks and works on stuff other than vehicles.

Really, almost all vehicles have rear armour 10. Land raiders, monoliths (which melta bombs fail against anyway) and demolishers are the only exceptions to this that I can think of right now. Do you actually want to try your luck with a melta bomb on a land raider anyway? Against armour 10, I would much sooner have 3 attacks at 8+D6 than 1 at 8+2D6. Remember also that melta bombs aren't AP1, as they have no AP value.

Then also, fists can instant kill obliterators and ICs. They can beat up wraithlords, or at least stop them from nailing your land raiders with bright lances (and it helps that you are stubborn if things go wrong). Sure, if you charge these guys into an enemy CC unit then they you run a serious risk of losing the fist before it strikes, so don't do that.

The key to most of my criticism of your list is flexibility. I'd always put 16 sternguard in a 10 and a 6 so I had the option of splitting them up. Why not have the option? 5 sternguard hanging back and firing the 30" ap4 shots is kind of ok. You are right about the odds of killing a vehicle with a melta, but 2 str 7 shots is actually pretty damn good against a lot of vehicles as well. MCs actually have quite a hard time claiming cover, especially at close range, and hellfire just doesn't get the job done against a tyrant and guards. Combi flamers *are not* comparable with just firing inferno rounds because the flamer template (potentially) hits a ton more stuff than the 1.33 hits that the bolter gives - and it's assault so you can fire it before charging if you want.


----------



## sooch

Someguy said:


> In comparing power fists and melta bombs, you must not forget that the power fist gets multiple attacks and works on stuff other than vehicles.
> 
> Really, almost all vehicles have rear armour 10. Land raiders, monoliths (which melta bombs fail against anyway) and demolishers are the only exceptions to this that I can think of right now. Do you actually want to try your luck with a melta bomb on a land raider anyway? Against armour 10, I would much sooner have 3 attacks at 8+D6 than 1 at 8+2D6. Remember also that melta bombs aren't AP1, as they have no AP value.
> 
> Then also, fists can instant kill obliterators and ICs. They can beat up wraithlords, or at least stop them from nailing your land raiders with bright lances (and it helps that you are stubborn if things go wrong). Sure, if you charge these guys into an enemy CC unit then they you run a serious risk of losing the fist before it strikes, so don't do that.
> 
> The key to most of my criticism of your list is flexibility. I'd always put 16 sternguard in a 10 and a 6 so I had the option of splitting them up. Why not have the option? 5 sternguard hanging back and firing the 30" ap4 shots is kind of ok. You are right about the odds of killing a vehicle with a melta, but 2 str 7 shots is actually pretty damn good against a lot of vehicles as well. MCs actually have quite a hard time claiming cover, especially at close range, and hellfire just doesn't get the job done against a tyrant and guards. Combi flamers *are not* comparable with just firing inferno rounds because the flamer template (potentially) hits a ton more stuff than the 1.33 hits that the bolter gives - and it's assault so you can fire it before charging if you want.


You make a good point about the pfist vs the meltabomb/power weapon. Dropping a combi weapon from each stern squad pays for the power fist. 

I'm still not convinced about the 5 man squad flapping in the wind, so to say, were they to combat squad. Remember that the 5 marines die just as easily as normal marines, and 5 stern hopping out of a land raider aren't as scary as 8. I am not convinced about the plasma either, because if your problem is versatility then I think that meltas have the edge over plasma. The AP1 bonus is huge against vehicles, as is the 2d6. It's also S8 and thus can instakill T4 characters and things like oblits. In a pinch it can melt terminators and wound MC on 2's. 

This is kind of irrelevant, but against something like elfzilla (Iyanden) or nidzilla, the SS/TH terminators are the bomb and can rip through TMC fairly easily.

Combi flamers are good, but they come at the cost of combi-meltas...

*1750 - Making Marines Work v2.1 - Space Marines*

*HQ*

Pedro [email protected]

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

8 Sternguard Marines [7x Combi-meltas, Rhino]@270pts

8 Sternguard Marines [7x Combi-meltas]@235pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [5x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Fist, 5x Camo Cloaks]@115pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power fist in order to keep his sniper rifle**

5 Scouts [5x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Fist, 5x Camo Cloaks]@115pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power fist in order to keep his sniper rifle**

*Fast Attack*

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts
*
Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Total Points_1750


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

children... dont make me simmer you again... (lol)

thats a powerful list your workin towards there sooch, but I'm gonna have to agree with Someguy that a few combi-flamers can go a long way agianst hordes (with a LOT more hits than bolter-fire could ever hope for)

As for the squad sizes, while 5 marines may not be the most durable, they can survive a decent ammount, and having more squads on the board after disembarkation reduces the potential effects of lash, and slows down loss rates (because lets face it, 8 marines will get taken out just as quickly as 5 marines by some units, no matter what you do). Also, just the fact that the option for the flexibility is there is good in and of itself, and dont forget that Sternguard _can_ deepstrike, so, bereft of a transport, you could still DS them onto an objective/hotspot (with a bit of luck)

As for tacticals, they arent a total lost cause. they can still deal with any issue (either neutralize or destroy) if propperly kitted out
IC: Las, Plas, PF, MG/MM, Krak missile
MC: Las, Plas, MG/MM, PF
Vehicle: (see above)
Horde: Flamer, HB, PC, ML
MEQ: (see IC)

the thing with tacs is not to expect a good survival rate, shoot for phyric victories, in fact, the games where my lists performed at their best, where I was the most satisfied with the outcome, there were only 15 or so models _total_ left on the board between both armies, an orgy of death is where marine lists can really shine, as the effectiveness of most SM units isnt all that diminished by losses, there is just less being effective (orks lose fearless, eldar cant whipe you out in one turn after to many losses, which leads to you winning; nids lose synapse and start dropping like the bugs they are; IG cant get enough RoF to stay effective, WBB goes down exponentially with the squads model count, daemons get the same problem eldar do; SM and CSM just slow down the kill rate a bit from losses). Yes, tacticals arent the best, but they arent the worst either, thats the way a jack-of-all trades unit works after all :shok:.

now, dont bite my head off, just my plug for tacticals... on to the Codex Roundup for basic HQ's

Captain/Chapter Master:
Strengths:
Beast in CC
a weapon for every target
amazing retinue
(captain) can muck with the FoC
(Master) Orbital Bombardment
marine stat line+, and a 4+ invuln
Weaknesses:
Pricey retinue (worse for the Master)
few guns

overall: good choice, mostly

Chaplain
Strengths:
big boost to CC units
decent choices for gear
power wep included
good in CC himsilf
cheap
Weaknesses:
only 2 wounds
choices are decent, but very scarce
almost no shooting
aside from a higher WS, and W, itrs a basic marine
no retinue of his own

overall: took an electrified dildo up the pooper compared to the last dex

Librarian:
Strengths:
same as chappy for CC on his own
awesome array of psyker skills (you have to try to get a bad setup)
comes with a force weapon, and psychic hood for 100 pts
cheap
options for gear
Weaknesses:
only 2 wounds
no retinue of his own
using 2 powers costs extra
still no other stat boosts (before pyschic bullshit, that is)

overall: hands down one of the best support HQ's in the game

Master of the Forge:
Strengths:
Conversion Beamer
can change up FoC
Bolster Defenses
repair
comes with Artificer Armor and a servo Harness
cheap
a few other gear options could be usefull
hits on a 2+ in shooting
Weaknesses:
CC isnt stellar
scant options for CC upgrades
no invuln
no termy armor or JP

overall: decent trick HQ


finals are killin me, I'll polish off the elites next time, probbably get tanks after that... (special charatcters will probably be last)


----------



## Vashtek

On combi-meltas v combi plasmas.... 

another aspect I think not touched on is that meltas are assault weapons. This means your sternguard can toast a transport and assault its contents. If you did that with plasmas you couldn't assault due to them being rapid fire. With Pedro around each sternguard gets 4 attacks on the charge, which is not insignificant.


----------



## sooch

Dessel_Ordo said:


> children... dont make me simmer you again... (lol)
> 
> thats a powerful list your workin towards there sooch, but I'm gonna have to agree with Someguy that a few combi-flamers can go a long way agianst hordes (with a LOT more hits than bolter-fire could ever hope for)
> 
> As for the squad sizes, while 5 marines may not be the most durable, they can survive a decent ammount, and having more squads on the board after disembarkation reduces the potential effects of lash, and slows down loss rates (because lets face it, 8 marines will get taken out just as quickly as 5 marines by some units, no matter what you do). Also, just the fact that the option for the flexibility is there is good in and of itself, and dont forget that Sternguard _can_ deepstrike, so, bereft of a transport, you could still DS them onto an objective/hotspot (with a bit of luck)
> 
> As for tacticals, they arent a total lost cause. they can still deal with any issue (either neutralize or destroy) if propperly kitted out
> IC: Las, Plas, PF, MG/MM, Krak missile
> MC: Las, Plas, MG/MM, PF
> Vehicle: (see above)
> Horde: Flamer, HB, PC, ML
> MEQ: (see IC)
> 
> the thing with tacs is not to expect a good survival rate, shoot for phyric victories, in fact, the games where my lists performed at their best, where I was the most satisfied with the outcome, there were only 15 or so models _total_ left on the board between both armies, an orgy of death is where marine lists can really shine, as the effectiveness of most SM units isnt all that diminished by losses, there is just less being effective (orks lose fearless, eldar cant whipe you out in one turn after to many losses, which leads to you winning; nids lose synapse and start dropping like the bugs they are; IG cant get enough RoF to stay effective, WBB goes down exponentially with the squads model count, daemons get the same problem eldar do; SM and CSM just slow down the kill rate a bit from losses). Yes, tacticals arent the best, but they arent the worst either, thats the way a jack-of-all trades unit works after all :shok:.


None of us need simmering, because none of us are upset (not that we'd listen to you even if we were in a heated argument). This is what constructive discussion looks like. 

Combi-flamers may be better than bolter fire, but again it's sacraficing combi meltas. It's not so much the fact that I think combi-flamers are bad, it's just that combi-meltas are better.

I guess 10+5 would let me take a razorback instead, for the smaller unit. 

Not sure what you're talking about when you say sternguard can teleport. They're not wearing terminator armor...

Tactical squads ARE a lost cause. I've said it numerous times before. Paying 170 for a heavy/special is ridiculous when other armies can get such equipment at much less cost, and their basic trooper isn't so useless (i.e. armed with assault weapons, has WBB, CCW etc). I'd much rather pay 140 for a sternguard squad with 2 heavy or special weapons, and combi weapons. THey're like the chosen of loyalist marines. You seem to know about how they're weak as jack-of-all trade units, so why keep praising them when the marine army book is full of specialist units that are great at what they do?

I'm also not sure about what you're talking about with "phyric" victories, or marines doing well when it's a real bloodbath. 



vashtek said:


> On combi-meltas v combi plasmas....
> 
> another aspect I think not touched on is that meltas are assault weapons. This means your sternguard can toast a transport and assault its contents. If you did that with plasmas you couldn't assault due to them being rapid fire. With Pedro around each sternguard gets 4 attacks on the charge, which is not insignificant.


This is very true. Even if they don't wipe out the enemy, they'll certainly hold them there until the TH/SS termies get there due to stubborn.
1750 - Making Marines Work v3.o - Space Marines

HQ

Pedro [email protected]

Elites

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [10x Combi-meltas]@300pts

5 Sternguard Marines [5x Combi-meltas, Razorback]@190pts

Troops

5 Scouts [5x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Fist, 5x Camo Cloaks]@115pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power fist in order to keep his sniper rifle**

5 Scouts [5x Sniper Rifle, 1x Power Fist, 5x Camo Cloaks]@115pts **Sergeant can replace bolt pistol with power fist in order to keep his sniper rifle**

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor]@275pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Total Points_1750


----------



## Teranis

Been following this thread for a while now, and I do like what im seeing as far as the Sternguard based list is developing.

However I did have a different approach ide like to post. (and have you all pick apart my reasoning to better grasp the new codex  )

HQ.

Libby in Term Armor with a SS, Episolary (deployed with the Assault Terms)
190

5 Assasult Terms with TH + SS + LRC
450

2x 10 Scouts, Sniper Rifles, HB and Cloaks.
360

2x 10 Scouts, Pistol + CCW, PWeapon on the Sarg.
310

2x Dev Squads, 4 ML Each
300

Speeder with a HB and HF
60

Speeder with 2 MM's
80

1750 Total.

On paper the list seems very flexible, able to deploy and function very differently, from turtling up and shooting while feeding the CCW Scout squads to tie up an advancing nid / ork army, allowing hammer and anvil with the Assault terms.

Or you can deploy 40 models across the entire table, enabling you to put alot of pressure on shooty armys like tau, who are going to have to choose between stopping the LR or the 20 scouts who are going to charge the lines.

Statistically speaking, throwing 4 pinning tests (combat squad snipers) per turn will let you see at least one pinned unit per game, more so when facing army's without LD 9-10's.

8 ML's are just the right amount of threat to make your opponent think twice about gunning for them compared to what else in on the board.

The two speeders are specialized in reverse roles, one can harass infantry, excelling at annoying nob bikers, yeah they will charge and kill the speeder in a single turn after eating a flamer, (which will probably only kill one lol) and get a 60pt kill for their trouble. However this allows you to shoot at them for another turn. The other speeder has a singular role, b-line for the meanest armored target on the board and take it out.

Now this list may not be the best representation for the following statement, but I tried  I believe the new SM Codex should function like a three tailed scorpion, yes, any army can cut off a tail. But not without getting stung by the other two. You land monoliths beside my dev squads.. Dont blame me when the 2nd turn scout charge levels 2 squads and leads to a phase out..

I look forward to your feedback, just be gentle


----------



## Katie Drake

Overall, I don't think that this list is _bad_ and it is certainly the out of the box thinking that Marine players are going to need to adopt in order to start kicking some arse.



Teranis said:


> HQ.
> 
> Libby in Term Armor with a SS, Episolary (deployed with the Assault Terms)
> 190


I'm a bit concerned about the storm shield. Librarians really don't have enough Attacks to take weapons that don't give them the +1 Bonus for two close combat weapons in my opinion. I realize that you're planning to do more than just fight with this guy, but we'd need to know which psychic powers you're taking to be sure. 



> 5 Assasult Terms with TH + SS + LRC
> 450


Like Termies.



> 2x 10 Scouts, Sniper Rifles, HB and Cloaks.
> 360


At first I thought that one unit cost 360 points. Whew.



> 2x 10 Scouts, Pistol + CCW, PWeapon on the Sarg.
> 310


Good. The more I read this list the more I'm considering Scout heavy armies as a highly viable format.



> 2x Dev Squads, 4 ML Each
> 300


I'm worried that this list really falls down here. Devastator Squads aren't as effective as they used to be, and units of 5 men are way too easy to take out. A pair of Vindicators may be a better choice, depending.



> Speeder with a HB and HF
> 60


It may be better to just use a pair of either heavy bolters or heavy flamers.



> Speeder with 2 MM's
> 80


These can work. Just keep it way out of sight because nobody'll allow that thing to live long.

Good job. :good:

Katie D


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Don't use double melta on the speeder. You can't move fast enough and fire both.


----------



## Someguy

Teranis said:


> However I did have a different approach ide like to post. (and have you all pick apart my reasoning to better grasp the new codex  )


All right, since you asked. k:

HQ.



Teranis said:


> Libby in Term Armor with a SS, Episolary (deployed with the Assault Terms)
> 190


Ok, this is a good place to start. I want to argue against you using this guy but it's difficult, because I can fathom no possible reason why he is here. He seems to add around the combat power of one assault termie for the price of an entire squad. Price-wise, he's having to compete with Lysander's S10 thunder hammer, Vulcan's all around killyness and Pedro's slightly weird combination of abilities that are probably good (and a fair amount cheaper). I can see nothing that this guy brings that the termies can't already do, or that 5 more termies wouldn't do better (ok 3 more, so that they fit in their crusader).:scratchhead:



Teranis said:


> 5 Assasult Terms with TH + SS + LRC
> 450


Fair enough.:good:



Teranis said:


> 2x 10 Scouts, Sniper Rifles, HB and Cloaks.
> 360


Nah. These guys are your main battle line and for me they just don't cut it. It's fine in theory to talk about how you can kill X models a turn, regardless of toughness, how you can infiltrate near objectives and so on, but really, if there are a bunch of orks coming towards you in trucks, these guys are about as much use as... you or I would be in that situation. Oh crap, run!... Oh dear we weren't fast enough. Ow.



Teranis said:


> 2x 10 Scouts, Pistol + CCW, PWeapon on the Sarg.
> 310


Again the fundamental problem with these guys is that they just aren't very good as a main battle strategy. I can see a unit of 5 doing well at messing things up for your opponent, but if you put these guys down and see a bunch of khorne berzerkers on the other side of the board, what is your plan? They aren't going to last long against a real opponent in CC.



Teranis said:


> 2x Dev Squads, 4 ML Each
> 300


Not my preference to be honest. I find that static heavy weapon units just don't work all that well nowadays really. 8 missile launchers will do some real damage though, and they aren't expensive, so I don't hate them even if I wouldn't use them myself.



Teranis said:


> Speeder with a HB and HF
> 60
> 
> Speeder with 2 MM's
> 80


Ahh now these just don't work at all for a number of reasons. 

Reason 1: They genuinely do not work as neither can fire both its guns as it moves above 6". The whole point of land speeders is that they are fast. The twin multi-melta version is particularly abject in this regard, as you are paying a ton of points to have two identical guns, and only ever fire one of them.

Reason 2: It's a bad idea to over-specialise units like this. You say that one is good at killing tanks and the other is good at killing infantry but I say, one is crap at killing infantry and the other is crap at killing tanks. Your opponent will say "Hey, I have a lot of tanks and not much infantry, I suppose I should kill the one with the multi meltas and ignore the other one" or vice-versa. Single, fragile units specialised to perform specific roles are either no threat, or they get killed right away.

Good land speeder designs do exist. The multi-melta/heavy flamer set up (the 2nd edition version, to an old fart like me) is now pretty cool. It can't fire both guns on the move, but both guns do their job well enough that it's ok to only fire one of them. A typhoon with heavy bolter can fire two krak missiles at vehicles and other tough targets, which is nice, and can fire two frag missiles (defensive weapons since they are str 4) and some other gun at infantry. The other gun can be a heavy bolter, allowing it to shoot stuff up from far, far away, while moving 12" a turn.



Teranis said:


> On paper the list seems very flexible, able to deploy and function very differently, from turtling up and shooting while feeding the CCW Scout squads to tie up an advancing nid / ork army, allowing hammer and anvil with the Assault terms.


That's kind of true. That's a worthy objective, but not what you have achieved so far.



Teranis said:


> Or you can deploy 40 models across the entire table, enabling you to put alot of pressure on shooty armys like tau, who are going to have to choose between stopping the LR or the 20 scouts who are going to charge the lines.


Well, not really. Most interesting Tau units can just run away from your scouts, while kroot will just gun them down or eat them. Tau, unlike marines, put their tank hunters in seperate units to their infantry killers, so the broadsides will be spamming railgun shells into the land raider while everything else blazes away at your scouts. If the termies do get there they will kill one unit that costs a lot less than they do, then get shot.




Teranis said:


> Statistically speaking, throwing 4 pinning tests (combat squad snipers) per turn will let you see at least one pinned unit per game, more so when facing army's without LD 9-10's.


Honestly, pinning is extremely rare. So much stuff is fearless now, or in a transport, or both. You will have games where you deploy these guys and can do nothing with them at all. They account for about 5 orks a turn when you are talking about having to try and stop 150 of them or more in just a couple of turns. If they were mobile they would have more time, but they aren't.



Teranis said:


> 8 ML's are just the right amount of threat to make your opponent think twice about gunning for them compared to what else in on the board.


I'm kind of with you on these. Personally, I rather like the idea of MLs on the typhoons so they can move around. 5 man squads are fragile and will be removed if they are a threat.



Teranis said:


> Now this list may not be the best representation for the following statement, but I tried  I believe the new SM Codex should function like a three tailed scorpion, yes, any army can cut off a tail. But not without getting stung by the other two. You land monoliths beside my dev squads.. Dont blame me when the 2nd turn scout charge levels 2 squads and leads to a phase out..


Ok, again that's not a bad plan to aim for. What happens if he lands the monolith right in the middle of your scouts and starts throwing ap4 death around the place while ignoring the krak missiles harmlessly pattering off it?



Teranis said:


> I look forward to your feedback, just be gentle


Ok, sorry about that. It's for your own good though. I think you have some good ideas on the macro side but need some real attention to design and function of individual units. Still, it's a step in the right direction and thanks for contributing.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

I apologize for some of the contents of my previous post, I was talking out of my ass for portions of my previous post, and didnt check on the deepstrike rule... sorry.

I agree with KatieDrake and Someguy on the most recent list, smacks of over-specialization. and it would be easier to give c&c on the libby if we knew wut powers he has


----------



## Wusword77

great ideas but the problem we're not addressing is how to use said list. We can list any units we want but unless its used correctly we wont win with it.

Are we gonna use the scouts to move behind enemy lines?

Use a tank shock attack with the LR's?

Have Pedro juggle some chickens? 

Will the 5 man group of Sternguard hold the fort? or move ahead?

I think when the final tactics are hammered out we'll have the proper list.

Though I really wanna try the scout heavy lists they could be fun.


----------



## sooch

Wusword77 said:


> great ideas but the problem we're not addressing is how to use said list. We can list any units we want but unless its used correctly we wont win with it.
> 
> Are we gonna use the scouts to move behind enemy lines?
> 
> Use a tank shock attack with the LR's?
> 
> Have Pedro juggle some chickens?
> 
> Will the 5 man group of Sternguard hold the fort? or move ahead?
> 
> I think when the final tactics are hammered out we'll have the proper list.
> 
> Though I really wanna try the scout heavy lists they could be fun.


Tactics for this army will never be "final". Tactics vary greatly depending on what enemy army list you are facing, the mission, the deployment, and even what turn of the game it is. With so many variables it's difficult to give sound tactics without overgeneralizing and basically ending up saying nothing at all. That being said, there are a couple basic things that should hold true in most situations:

-If you ever feel the need to "hold the fort" with a unit, use the scouts and not the sternguard. Scouts can sit in cover comfortably and just pepper the enemy with long range SR fire, while sternguard should be up in rapid fire range pretty much constantly to get the most potential for damage.

-LS Storms should go after targets of opportunity, being especially careful in KP missions as they can turn into 2 easy KP if one is not careful (this point is true whether the storms are carrying scouts or not)

-Remember that if you get first turn/deployment you can infiltrate your storms and charge something with a powerfist first turn

-Pedro should be with the assault terminators the majority of the time, to give the 12" +1A bonus to them (don't forget to use your orbital bombardment, sometimes you get lucky and murder 5 terminators out of nowhere)

-Also try to assault with your scouts so that they get the +A bonus. Not quite as critical as getting the bonus to your terminators, but every bit helps

Hope these points helped.


----------



## Someguy

Tactics, and the metagame of what others are using inform the list, rather than the other way around. The goal is to have a list that can adapt and do different things against different opponents, but should have no "nightmare opponent" against which it can do nothing.

A lot of the discussion so far has been along the lines of finding out what to use to perform this or that function. I think we're geting somewhere now.


----------



## Ferik

Just a few thought I figured I'd throw out there.

The last little while I've come to figure that basic Marines tend to lean more towards anti-hoard and to a lesser extent anti-troop especially with their basic weapon load out (Flamer & Missile Launcher) which work very well against hoard as well as their basic Bolter which usually ignore hoard units AR and then if need be they can take out light armour as well, but all in all they are not excedinly great at this task either so perhaps they should be used more in a support role to soften up target units before sending in the "specialist" in to finish up. Anyways just a little on my thinking on that.

Also it was mention reciently at my shop that a big part of making an effective list is to take dice rolling out of the equation.
Orks do this by shear volume of troops and number of attacks
Eldar use their psychic abilities to increase odds of succesful rolls by being able to re-roll most aspects in a given turn
Tau do this by mass shooting and well placed Markerlights
Chaos does this with specialized hard hitting troops and other "elite" units

the units we have that can do this effectively are some of the following
Sternguard are of coarse the favorite right now due to their "versitility" their only downfall is high cost and dying as easly as Marines so if they die before they do their job they are a huge point sink (just my opinion is all)

Mostly though the ones who take rolling out of the equation are
Vulkan has to be the best at this allowing to re-roll Melta-weapons (which usually miss for me) is great for me also re-rolling Flamer to wound is huge against hoard armies and for me and to a lesser extent Master Crafted Thunder Hammers which I think can be done a little better with a Chaplin in the unit to re-roll all to hit in the charge instead of just the one re-roll

Lysander is probably the next best with Bolter Drill in either a Sterguard squad wich is just deadly or to alesser extent a Tactical Squad or Devistator
increasing the odds to hit with bolters is also a big deal

Pedro Cantor adding extra attacks to all friendly units within 12" is also very benificial since the more attacks you have the better your odds of a succesful assault become though not too crazy about the stubborn rule since Combat tactics is very useful in its own right and should not be over looked.

Calgar taking moral and leadership test out of the picture by deciding to pass or fail can be very benificial as well depending on the given situation.

so thats my bit on that feel free to add or critique... well thats to be expected anyways just remember I'm no GT player and no expert just my two cents is all.

Later


----------



## Vashtek

I think we have the basic skeleton of a list now. It would be helpful if we got some playtest results and reports against good opposition. I think the sternguard work better as Someguy has suggested (allowing combat squadding) and combi weapons are probably just personal preference and the metagame.

Personally, I might consider dropping one scout squad and storm and replacing it with a tactical squad and rhino. This gives more bodies and also allows you to hold objectives in the open which the scouts don't like. You also get some more moveable terrain in the form of a rhino. In a pinch they can assault which they are not awful at if Pedro is about.

I just get the feeling that 2 squads of scouts might be pushing it. I also think the storms could be liabilities in some games. If the scouts perform well however then I'll ditch the tactical squad.


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> I think we have the basic skeleton of a list now. It would be helpful if we got some playtest results and reports against good opposition. I think the sternguard work better as Someguy has suggested (allowing combat squadding) and combi weapons are probably just personal preference and the metagame.
> 
> Personally, I might consider dropping one scout squad and storm and replacing it with a tactical squad and rhino. This gives more bodies and also allows you to hold objectives in the open which the scouts don't like. You also get some more moveable terrain in the form of a rhino. In a pinch they can assault which they are not awful at if Pedro is about.
> 
> I just get the feeling that 2 squads of scouts might be pushing it. I also think the storms could be liabilities in some games. If the scouts perform well however then I'll ditch the tactical squad.


The scouts and their transport do ring in at 175pts...enough for a full tac squad but no rhino. What one could do instead is take a tactical drop pod (205pts, with MM/flamer as heavy/special) and drop the storm from the scouts, giving them a missile launcher and losing a powerfist.

*1750 - Making Marines Work v4.o - Space Marines*

*HQ*

Pedro [email protected]

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [10x Combi-meltas]@300pts

5 Sternguard Marines [5x Combi-meltas, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon]@225pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifle, 5x Camo Cloaks]@100pts 

10 Tactical Marines [1x Multimelta, 1x Flamer, Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon]@215pts
*
Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor]@275pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

*Total Points_1750*

Cool...I'm liking this incarnation of the list. Now the scouts are dedicated to babysitting the home objective, and you have a drop pod for your opponent's objective....with a handy locator beacon just in case you decide you want to teleport your terminators in  In the event that you decide to teleport the terminators, you can stick the 10 sternguard in their extra armor'd raider, and shuffle the 5 man sternguard into the non-armored raider. This means that the scouts can hop into the razorback if the opponent is spamming lootas or something. I also had enough points around to add a 35pt upgrade to the razorback...either a TL-Asscan or a TL-lascan depending on the metagame in your area. I feel that a lascannon would be useful though since the army sort of lacks long range firepower.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Change the Tact squads multi-melta for a missle launcher. It's cheaper, has a longer range and is more fexible.


----------



## Wusword77

sooch said:


> The scouts and their transport do ring in at 175pts...enough for a full tac squad but no rhino. What one could do instead is take a tactical drop pod (205pts, with MM/flamer as heavy/special) and drop the storm from the scouts, giving them a missile launcher and losing a powerfist.
> 
> *1750 - Making Marines Work v4.o - Space Marines*
> 
> *HQ*
> 
> Pedro [email protected]
> 
> *Elites*
> 
> 5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts
> 
> 10 Sternguard Marines [10x Combi-meltas]@300pts
> 
> 5 Sternguard Marines [5x Combi-meltas, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon]@225pts
> 
> *Troops*
> 
> 5 Scouts [1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifle, 5x Camo Cloaks]@100pts
> 
> 10 Tactical Marines [1x Multimelta, 1x Flamer, Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon]@215pts
> *
> Heavy Support*
> 
> Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor]@275pts
> 
> Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts
> 
> *Total Points_1750*
> 
> Cool...I'm liking this incarnation of the list. Now the scouts are dedicated to babysitting the home objective, and you have a drop pod for your opponent's objective....with a handy locator beacon just in case you decide you want to teleport your terminators in  In the event that you decide to teleport the terminators, you can stick the 10 sternguard in their extra armor'd raider, and shuffle the 5 man sternguard into the non-armored raider. This means that the scouts can hop into the razorback if the opponent is spamming lootas or something. I also had enough points around to add a 35pt upgrade to the razorback...either a TL-Asscan or a TL-lascan depending on the metagame in your area. I feel that a lascannon would be useful though since the army sort of lacks long range firepower.


I really like that list. There's a good amount of adaption that can be worked with there. We can also shuffle around the Drop Pod and the Razorback so you can drop in the sternguard and have a good level of fire support for the Marines.

hmmmmm this can work out very well. hopfully i can get some people to play against this list this weekend so i can test it out. I'm wondering how it'll work against Nids.


----------



## sooch

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Change the Tact squads multi-melta for a missle launcher. It's cheaper, has a longer range and is more fexible.


No. The drop pod ensures that the multimelta is in range from turn 1. Multi-meltas, heavy bolters, and missile launchers are all free for a 10 man tac squad, so that point is also moot. The ML may be more flexible, but I don't really need more anti-horde, and the MM is much better at killing tanks than the ML is.



Wusword77 said:


> I really like that list. There's a good amount of adaption that can be worked with there. We can also shuffle around the Drop Pod and the Razorback so you can drop in the sternguard and have a good level of fire support for the Marines.
> 
> hmmmmm this can work out very well. hopfully i can get some people to play against this list this weekend so i can test it out. I'm wondering how it'll work against Nids.


Yeah this list isnt the be-all or end-all of the marine book by any means, but it seems like it's a list that most people will find easy to use and build on....with a nice variety of units too.

Nids should have problems with this list. If it's nidzilla you're talking about, they really have no answer to TH/SS terminators and carefully deployed sternguard. If it's horde, they will not have many TMC's and so your LRC's should have a field day after you focus fire the few MC's that are around (read: tactics suggestion).


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

sooch said:


> The ML may be more flexible, but I don't really need more anti-horde, and the MM is much better at killing tanks than the ML is.


Okay don't mind the MM cost, that was an error lol. If your shooting at a heavy vehicle with the MM, your wasting the rest of your shots. Just something to consider.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Is the tactical squad and sternguard being comabt squadded ? Overall I lke the list. You have 4 scoring units here with a possible 6 so that's that section of the list clear. 2 land raiders I like. Especially the normal one as that gives you a lot of needed firepower in the godhammer lascannons. The podded multimelta is a good idea. I've tried it myself with a ten man dev. squad with 4 of them and it rapes the vehicles plus has a fair bit of give with the extra 5 men. although that kind of specialisation wouldn't be great for this list. good job though


----------



## Someguy

I find multimeltas to be a truly horrible weapon on any kind of infantry. Much worse than a normal melta gun.

You can't fire on the turn you arrive in your pod. Next turn you want a vehicle to be within 12", and you then have quite a small chance of killing it.

I'm afraid I think this unit in the pod is a step backwards. A unit in a rhino with a missile launcher and flamer would be better. I can't really see many situations in which these guys would contribute.


----------



## Vashtek

Someguy said:


> I find multimeltas to be a truly horrible weapon on any kind of infantry. Much worse than a normal melta gun.
> 
> You can't fire on the turn you arrive in your pod. Next turn you want a vehicle to be within 12", and you then have quite a small chance of killing it.
> 
> I'm afraid I think this unit in the pod is a step backwards. A unit in a rhino with a missile launcher and flamer would be better. I can't really see many situations in which these guys would contribute.


I kind of agree. I think the unit could be ok if they had say a melta gun and combi melta and missile launcher. You combat squad 1 and deploy to suppot an objective and the 2 meltas to pod next to their transports on turn 1. This might then scare people (like us) into putting their transports into reserve which is good for us. 

I prefer, however, dropping the razorback to twin heavy bolters (as most of the time its trying to optimise sternguard shooting anyway), keep the rhino and upgrade the tactical marine sargeant to carry a powerfist. You then have the option of rushing forward with everything. I think you have 10 points left which I'd upgrade the scout sargeant to combi melta.


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> I kind of agree. I think the unit could be ok if they had say a melta gun and combi melta and missile launcher. You combat squad 1 and deploy to suppot an objective and the 2 meltas to pod next to their transports on turn 1. This might then scare people (like us) into putting their transports into reserve which is good for us.
> 
> I prefer, however, dropping the razorback to twin heavy bolters (as most of the time its trying to optimise sternguard shooting anyway), keep the rhino and upgrade the tactical marine sargeant to carry a powerfist. You then have the option of rushing forward with everything. I think you have 10 points left which I'd upgrade the scout sargeant to combi melta.


*1750 - Making Marines Work v4.5 - Space Marines*

*HQ*

Pedro [email protected]

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [10x Combi-meltas]@300pts

5 Sternguard Marines [5x Combi-meltas, Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter]@190pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [1x Missile Launcher, 4x Sniper Rifle, 5x Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer]@115pts

10 Tactical Marines [1x Missile Launcher, 1x Meltagun, Rhino, Teleport Homer, 1x Power Fist]@250pts

*Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

*Total Points_1750*

Ok. Tacs are now in a rhino with meltagun/missile launcher/powerfist. The random pod was a lackluster idea, this fits much better with the rest of the army. I put homers on both the scout sergeant and the tactical sergeant, just to increase our flexibility (say you were playing a heavy gunline tau or something, you could infiltrate your scouts up and then teleport the terminators into position on them or on the tac rhino/raider [whichever one you decide to put them in, since the termies are deepstriking]).

I didn't put any combi meltas on the tac sergeant or the scout sergeant because at 10 points each they are somewhat overcosted, especially on the scout sergeant who in all likelyhood will not be getting within 6" of enemy armor, let alone 12".

Tell me what you think.


----------



## Vashtek

Looks good. I hate that the tactical squad costs 250 points but I still think it is the best second troops choice for this army.

[/QUOTE}

I didn't put any combi meltas on the tac sergeant or the scout sergeant because at 10 points each they are somewhat overcosted, especially on the scout sergeant who in all likelyhood will not be getting within 6" of enemy armor, let alone 12".

Tell me what you think.[/QUOTE]

Hasn't it got a pretty good chance? The Storm is a scout fast vehicle, so (assuming you get 1st turn) you can deploy as far forward as you can, then make the scout move (18" as a fast vehicle?). You can then move 12" on your first turn deploying 2" which gets you pretty much anywhere I think?

I appreciate that a 1 off shot is not that likely to come off... but it just might blow up their landraider/battlewagon with meganobz/ stupid eldar transport and win you the game. I appreciate you can always assault the vehicle but this way you can get to charge the crew rather than the transport. If they choose not to deploy their transports and put them in reserve on the basis of a meltagun this is fine, and allows your LR's to move up. 

If you go second you put them in reserve and make them worry about heavy flamer templates and side armour meltagun shots.

Much as I like this list, I struggle to see how it deals with eldar MEQ but I guess one bad matchup is not too bad, and this is probabaly the least popular out of lash/orks/eldar.


----------



## fett14622

*"Revised"*

Here is a little play on sooches list:

HQ: 

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor (@ 175 Pts)


Elite: 

(@475 Pts)
5 Terminator Assault Squad Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield (x5); 

(@335 Pts)
10 Sternguard Squad ; Combi-Meltagun (x10)
1 Drop Pod

(@230 Pts)
5 Sternguard Squad;Combi-Flamer (x4); Heavy Flamer (x1)
1 Razorback; Twin Linked Lascannon

Troops: 

(@100 Pts)
5 Scout Squad; Camo Cloaks(5x); Sniper Rifle (x4); Missile Launcher

(@260 Pts)
9 Tactical Squad; Meltagun; Missile Launcher;
1 Sergeant; Combi-Meltagun; Power Fist
1 Rhino; Extra Armor

Heavy Support: 

1 Land Raider Crusader; Extra Armor; Multi-Melta

1 Predator Twin Linked Lascannon; Lascannon @ 165 Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1740

:victory:


----------



## fett14622

*"Revised"*

or

HQ: 

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor (@175 Pts)


Elite: 

(@475 Pts)
5 Terminator Assault Squad; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield 

(@335 Pts)
10 Sternguard Squad; Combi-Meltagun (x10); Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod 

(@255 Pts)
4 Sternguard Squad; Combi-Flamer (x3); Heavy Flamer (x1)
1 Sergeant; Combi-Flamer; Power Fist
1 Razorback; Twin Linked Lascannon

Troops:

(@100 Pts)
5 Scout Squad; Camo Cloaks(x5); Sniper Rifle (x4); Missile Launcher (x1)


(@275 Pts)
9 Tactical Squad; Meltagun; Missile Launcher;
1 Sergeant; Teleport Homer; Combi-Meltagun; Power Fist
1 Rhino; Extra Armor

Heavy: 

(@125 Pts)
1 Vindicator; Siege Shield

1 Land Raider Crusader; Extra Armor; Multi-Melta

Total Roster Cost: 1740

:victory:


----------



## Vashtek

I think both these lists are not as good as Sooch's list. You have lost a land radier and replaced it with stuff that is not as good. You really shoudn't put the LRC as a dedicated transport as it cuts down on options.

I think the flamey stuff with the sternguard is unecessary. If you want a unit to do this, get some sisters or a storm. They're much cheaper too.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

hmm... interesting off-shots fett.
The single pod could end up pretty lonely after you drop it however
I'm not sure what it is exactly, but the lists seem kind of Schitzo to me, cant quite put my finger on it tho...

will probably have a codex breakdown for techmarine/TFC, and termies by the end of tomorrow... finals are killin me...


----------



## Semaj

Vulcan Hestan-190


Elites

dreadnaught Sem'j
heavy flamer
Extra armour
Drop pod
165

dreadnaught Toren
Twin linked Heavy flamer
heavy flamer
Extra armour
Drop pod
death wind launcher
185

Troops

Squad zypher <in the Land raider With Vulcan
Sgt Zypher
"Power fist"
combi flamer
10 troops
Flamer
multi melta-
205

Squad Dan
Sgt Lieutenant dan
combi melta
Power weapon
10 troops
melta gun
multi melta
Razorback
240

Squad Vlad
Sgt Vlad
combi melta
Plasma pistol
10 troops
melta gun
multi melta
Razorback
230

Squad Ipkus
Sgt Ipkus
"Power fist"
combi flamer
10 troops
Flamer
multi melta
Drop pod
240

Fast atack

Land speeder
Heavy flamer
Multi melta
70

Land speeder
Multi melta
Heavy flamer
70

heavy support

land raider reedemer


1850



This Is the list I have been testing for the NExt tournament in my area. It seems pretty mean. My first turn 2 dread drop pods come in to blast at vehicles\troops tying the enemy up till my LR and Razor backs and two Speeders with tank busting swarm erasing goodness can make it to the enemy line without getting so much flack. The rest of the five man squads with MM stay back to defend or blast at a counter offence. The third drop pod comes in to contest point or to drop troops where I need em. Vulcan Ensures all those pesky misses with those meltas are Twin linked As well as all of my flamers heavy falmers and multi meltas. This army works Well against Heavy vehicles OR horde armies.

Please don't post individual points costs, this breaks GW IP - Jacobite


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> Looks good. I hate that the tactical squad costs 250 points but I still think it is the best second troops choice for this army.





> I didn't put any combi meltas on the tac sergeant or the scout sergeant because at 10 points each they are somewhat overcosted, especially on the scout sergeant who in all likelyhood will not be getting within 6" of enemy armor, let alone 12".
> 
> Tell me what you think.





> Hasn't it got a pretty good chance? The Storm is a scout fast vehicle, so (assuming you get 1st turn) you can deploy as far forward as you can, then make the scout move (18" as a fast vehicle?). You can then move 12" on your first turn deploying 2" which gets you pretty much anywhere I think?
> 
> I appreciate that a 1 off shot is not that likely to come off... but it just might blow up their landraider/battlewagon with meganobz/ stupid eldar transport and win you the game. I appreciate you can always assault the vehicle but this way you can get to charge the crew rather than the transport. If they choose not to deploy their transports and put them in reserve on the basis of a meltagun this is fine, and allows your LR's to move up.
> 
> If you go second you put them in reserve and make them worry about heavy flamer templates and side armour meltagun shots.
> 
> Much as I like this list, I struggle to see how it deals with eldar MEQ but I guess one bad matchup is not too bad, and this is probabaly the least popular out of lash/orks/eldar.


I believe that you've misread my list. Both storms, and the second scout squad had to be dropped for the tactical squad. The scouts are now officially static home objective holders.

What do you mean by eldar MEq? Do you mean eldar anti-MEq (star cannons)?



> Vulcan Hestan-190
> 
> 
> Elites
> 
> dreadnaught Sem'j
> heavy flamer
> Extra armour
> Drop pod
> 165
> 
> dreadnaught Toren
> Twin linked Heavy flamer
> heavy flamer
> Extra armour
> Drop pod
> death wind launcher
> 185
> 
> Troops
> 
> Squad zypher <in the Land raider With Vulcan
> Sgt Zypher
> "Power fist"
> combi flamer
> 10 troops
> Flamer
> multi melta-
> 205
> 
> Squad Dan
> Sgt Lieutenant dan
> combi melta
> Power weapon
> 10 troops
> melta gun
> multi melta
> Razorback
> 240
> 
> Squad Vlad
> Sgt Vlad
> combi melta
> Plasma pistol
> 10 troops
> melta gun
> multi melta
> Razorback
> 230
> 
> Squad Ipkus
> Sgt Ipkus
> "Power fist"
> combi flamer
> 10 troops
> Flamer
> multi melta
> Drop pod
> 240
> 
> Fast atack
> 
> Land speeder
> Heavy flamer
> Multi melta
> 70
> 
> Land speeder
> Multi melta
> Heavy flamer
> 70
> 
> heavy support
> 
> land raider reedemer
> 
> 
> 1850


Why not take terminators with SS/TH? You will get steamrolled by nidzilla otherwise, and He'stan mastercrafts those thunder hammers anyways!

Dreadnoughts should be ironclads, they're stupidly good. Keep the seismic hammer/DCCW and give them heavy flamer/meltagun. Take the deathwind off of the pod as well.

Replace a squad of tacs with 5 TH/SS termies that will ride with vulkan in the raider. Tacs should get flamer/MM or flamer/missile.

Try this:

Vulkan He'[email protected]

Ironclad Dreadnought [Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, DCCW, Seismic Hammer, Drop Pod]@180pts

Ironclad Dreadnought [Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, DCCW, Seismic Hammer, Drop Pod]@180pts

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

10 Tactical Marines [Flamer, Multimelta, Drop Pod]@205pts

10 Tactical Marines [Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino w/ Dozerblade]@210pts

10 Tactical Marines [Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino w/ Dozerblade]@210pts

Land Speeder [Flamer, Multimelta]@70pts

Land Speeder [Flamer, Multimelta]@70pts

Land Speeder [Flamer, Multimelta]@70pts

Land Raider Redeemer [Multimelta, Extra Armor]@265pts

1850 total.

2 dreads drop first, pop transports. Then you proceed to rhino/raider corral him and then flame him to death. Termies get you unstuck if you get stuck in. What do you think?


----------



## Lord Cornilius

Someguy said:


> I'm becoming more and more convinced that you need to look elsewhere to be competitive. I'll try some more with GKs and maybe Sisters.


Someguy this is been a list I've been toying with for a while. I have a fully fledged DH army and I wanted to incorporate Deathwatch marines from Codex: Space Marines. Anyways, what do you think?

Librarian Epistolary 
8 Power Armour Grey Knights – 2 Psycannons 

Grey Knight Grand Master – Hammerhand, Hood 
5 Grey Knight Terminators – Incinerator 

Inquisitor – Incinerator 
Tactical Squad – Fist, Flamer, Las Cannon, Combi Flamer
Razorback – Heavy Bolters 

Tactical Sqaud – Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma 

Land Speeder – MM, HF 
Land Speeder – MM, HF 

Land Raider Crusader – MM 

So the Librarian goes with the Power Armour Grey Knights and gets 
Force Dome or Gate (not sure which is better yet) and Avenger. I think this will help mitigate these guys weakness; survivability, and they also are a scoring unit.

The Grand Master has a hood to cancel nasty psychic powers, and when combined with his boys roll over just about anything when pouring out of their Crusader. He has also proven to be rather resilant these days with the retinue rule.

The first Tac (Deathwatch) squad sticks together and holds an objective.

The second squad combat squads with the LasCannon half holding an objective and trying to pop a transport. The second half is joined by the inquistor and hops into the Razorback. These guys will be able to lay down 3 templates when they pop out.

The speeders act as cruise missles and either head for enemy armour or pricey horde units.

All in all fluffy and hopefully effective.


----------



## sooch

Lord Cornilius said:


> Someguy this is been a list I've been toying with for a while. I have a fully fledged DH army and I wanted to incorporate Deathwatch marines from Codex: Space Marines. Anyways, what do you think?
> 
> Librarian Epistolary
> 8 Power Armour Grey Knights – 2 Psycannons
> 
> Grey Knight Grand Master – Hammerhand, Hood
> 5 Grey Knight Terminators – Incinerator
> 
> Inquisitor – Incinerator
> Tactical Squad – Fist, Flamer, Las Cannon, Combi Flamer
> Razorback – Heavy Bolters
> 
> Tactical Sqaud – Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma
> 
> Land Speeder – MM, HF
> Land Speeder – MM, HF
> 
> Land Raider Crusader – MM
> 
> So the Librarian goes with the Power Armour Grey Knights and gets
> Force Dome or Gate (not sure which is better yet) and Avenger. I think this will help mitigate these guys weakness; survivability, and they also are a scoring unit.
> 
> The Grand Master has a hood to cancel nasty psychic powers, and when combined with his boys roll over just about anything when pouring out of their Crusader. He has also proven to be rather resilant these days with the retinue rule.
> 
> The first Tac (Deathwatch) squad sticks together and holds an objective.
> 
> The second squad combat squads with the LasCannon half holding an objective and trying to pop a transport. The second half is joined by the inquistor and hops into the Razorback. These guys will be able to lay down 3 templates when they pop out.
> 
> The speeders act as cruise missles and either head for enemy armour or pricey horde units.
> 
> All in all fluffy and hopefully effective.


Lysander might be better to stick with the grey knights than a libby...bolter drill anyone? You already have a force hood on the inquisitor lord, right? And you also already ignore invulns so there's no point in bringing the libby for null zone.

Plasma on the tacs is kinda meh. I'd rather try to get them a transport and give them missile/flamer, or missile/meltagun.

Even with all the flamers you still might get run over by ork horde backed by lootas. With your low number of units, it wouldn't be overly difficult for the lootas to focus your GK unit and kill it within a turn.

Cool list overall though. I like mine better


----------



## Someguy

Cornilius' list has a lot going for it actually.

First off, I do like the plasma in tactical squads. No, they should not have a multi melta, ever, and a plasma cannon is a hell of a lot scarier than a missile launcher as well. Plasma weapons, unlike meltas (and krak missiles), work well with bolters. No real point arguing for a long time about these, other than to say that people haven't been using las/plas for the last decade for no reason, and plasma guns are significantly better this edition than they were (thanks to less getting hot and ignoring fnp for a start). Yes, your enemy may be in cover, but then he's in cover to your meltagun as well - so shoot him twice.

The librarian with the GKs is interesting, and something I've looked at as well. You gate around the place and put lots of fire into stuff, and can grab objectives. They are a difficult unit to remove from an objective once in place as well. I'm not 100% sold on them as they do cost a lot, but the principle works for me.

I do agree though that it's a worryingly small army. The GKs seem vulnerable to people just shooting them. I think there are some very interesting unit designs but I'm not sure it all adds up to a good all-round force. I do think it would have a decent chance against hordes with all the templates it can put down, so maybe. One to see in action for sure, and a nice example of a truly elite force.


----------



## Lord Cornilius

Someguy said:


> Cornilius' list has a lot going for it actually.
> 
> The librarian with the GKs is interesting, and something I've looked at as well. You gate around the place and put lots of fire into stuff, and can grab objectives. They are a difficult unit to remove from an objective once in place as well. I'm not 100% sold on them as they do cost a lot, but the principle works for me.
> 
> I do agree though that it's a worryingly small army. The GKs seem vulnerable to people just shooting them. I think there are some very interesting unit designs but I'm not sure it all adds up to a good all-round force. I do think it would have a decent chance against hordes with all the templates it can put down, so maybe. One to see in action for sure, and a nice example of a truly elite force.


Thanks for the compliment.

The Librarian / GK combo is still in Theoryhammer mode. I've played GK's extensively in my DH list and their biggest problem is manuverability and survivablity. I'm hoping these problems may lessen with the libby. I've considered buying a Rhino for the other Tac squad and tossing the GK's in it with incinerators and force dome from the libby. But, a timely teleport combined with 12 bolter rounds, 6 Psycannon shots, and the libby's avenger should put the hurt to just about any type of infantry. This will take some experimenting. What powers were you considering?

As far as being small, when compared to any Land Raider list it's not that bad. The Grey Knight Terminators are now a bargain compared to their codex counterparts, and after several games in 5th these guys just shine. The Power Armour Grey Knights share the same cost as their codex veteran bretheren and are better in my opinion. I actually think the GK's got a boost when compared to the very pricey new codex marines.

I just bought some tac squads and ordered the deathwatch shoulder pads, so give me a couple weeks and I'll let you know how practical this list is.


----------



## Pauly55

I'm sure a lot of you realize this, but regarding the purpose of tac squads:

Tac squads don't have a role like a dedicated assault squad or a dedicated shooting squad. They are not specialists. 

People have said time and time again that they are all around jacks of all trades. This is true, but what does this mean tactically?

Tac squads are, point for point, better at assault than your opponents shooting units and better at shooting than your opponents assault units. If you can engauge the enemy on your terms, the tac squad will do fine. This is why it is essential to have a transport so they can engauge on their terms. Footslogging marines are wastes of points.

Also I agree that multimeltas on infantry are useless.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

a third (or 300th, your choice) on no MM's for infantry.
Cornelius: Right now I like to run a squad of 5 Grey Knights (Incinerator, Justicar, and 3 regular GK) and an Epostillary with Gate of Infinity and Avenger. They have good, reliable mobility, and can show up on your doorstep with 2 templates (one ignoring invulns), and 8 bolter-shots of love. This normally is enough to snag an objective (against hordes I run 2 incinerators, along with the avenger this puts a good ol' holy BBQ on most hordes)


----------



## Broken

_People have said time and time again that they are all around jacks of all trades. This is true, but what does this mean tactically?_
Well, they have a balanced profile, that's better than most standard warriors of other races. When not considering weaponry it's obvious that Tactical Marines are designed to be equal in both ballistic and melee styles of combat. However, it's their choice of weaponry that generally decides their battlefield role. Flamers and Meltaguns are used for eliminating light infantry and vehicles, respectively, and as a result your Marines are going to be close to the enemy. Whereas when you use a Lascannon your target of choice will be tough infantry as well as vehicles, and the Marines will be a long distance away from your opponent's units.

_This is why it is essential to have a transport so they can engauge on their terms. Footslogging marines are wastes of points._
I disagree. If you arm the Tactical Squad with a Plasma Gun and leave the rest of the Marines with Bolters then they can be very efficient at laying down fire whilst on the move, especially when they're within Rapid Fire range. By doing this you can support your units that are moving behind cover or down the flank, and also create firing columns so that your opponent will move their squads into certain areas; making them play on your terms.


----------



## Vashtek

sooch said:


> I believe that you've misread my list. Both storms, and the second scout squad had to be dropped for the tactical squad. The scouts are now officially static home objective holders.
> 
> What do you mean by eldar MEq? Do you mean eldar anti-MEq (star cannons)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah you're right I did misread- I assumed you had kept one of the storms. I think 1 is fine as a trick that can win you games against the right opposition but any more than that is pushing it. I wondered how you had got points left over!
> 
> By eldar meq I mean the typical eldar falcon wave serpent spam with eldrad + assorted warlocks, banshees ( I hear these are the new harlequins) and dire avengers. Seems a very dull army to play as you basically try to grab objectives on the last turn whilst avoiding confrontation. I don't think your/our list has enough longe range fire power to deal with it, but as I've said maybe it isn't possible to avoid one bad matchup.
Click to expand...


----------



## Pauly55

Broken said:


> _People have said time and time again that they are all around jacks of all trades. This is true, but what does this mean tactically?_
> Well, they have a balanced profile, that's better than most standard warriors of other races. When not considering weaponry it's obvious that Tactical Marines are designed to be equal in both ballistic and melee styles of combat. However, it's their choice of weaponry that generally decides their battlefield role. Flamers and Meltaguns are used for eliminating light infantry and vehicles, respectively, and as a result your Marines are going to be close to the enemy. Whereas when you use a Lascannon your target of choice will be tough infantry as well as vehicles, and the Marines will be a long distance away from your opponent's units.


That was a rhetorical question.



> _This is why it is essential to have a transport so they can engauge on their terms. Footslogging marines are wastes of points._
> I disagree. If you arm the Tactical Squad with a Plasma Gun and leave the rest of the Marines with Bolters then they can be very efficient at laying down fire whilst on the move, especially when they're within Rapid Fire range. By doing this you can support your units that are moving behind cover or down the flank, and also create firing columns so that your opponent will move their squads into certain areas; making them play on your terms.


This is not true. Footslogging marines do not lay down fire on the move, unless of course your enemy is within 12. 
9 bolters and one plasma gun do not create firing columns that will force your opponent down a certain avenue, its just not scary enough. Marines in a rhino double tapping at anything within 24" is. 

Seriously buy a rhino. They are the best transport out there. Razorbacks are cool too.


----------



## Teranis

Im wondering, is the LotD would be worth experimenting with?

You can put 3 Special weapons into a squad of 5.

3+ Inv Save.

They can move and shoot, albiet slowly.

2 attacks each in CC, and realistically not much more points than a 10 man Tac.

Might be a solution to all the Anti-MEQ in GT's, these guys get a MEQ save that still rolls vs a S10 AP1 attacks.

Has anyone played with these in a game vs a GT caliber army yet?


----------



## sooch

Teranis said:


> Im wondering, is the LotD would be worth experimenting with?
> 
> You can put 3 Special weapons into a squad of 5.
> 
> 3+ Inv Save.
> 
> They can move and shoot, albiet slowly.
> 
> 2 attacks each in CC, and realistically not much more points than a 10 man Tac.
> 
> Might be a solution to all the Anti-MEQ in GT's, these guys get a MEQ save that still rolls vs a S10 AP1 attacks.
> 
> Has anyone played with these in a game vs a GT caliber army yet?


My problem with these guys is that yes, they have a 3+ invuln, but a squad of 5 will die just as easily as a squd of 5 tacs against torrent of fire, which is the trend that most armies are moving towards in 5th due to cover save abundance. Consider that sternguard can take 10 "special weapons" in a squad for cheaper and they get cool bolters AND don't have to deepstrike, and it's clear that LotD are for fun only.


----------



## Broken

_That was a rhetorical question._
I wasn't sure if it was or not but I decided I might as well answer either way.

_9 bolters and one plasma gun do not create firing columns that will force your opponent down a certain avenue, its just not scary enough._
I think that depends what army you're up against. If you're playing Plague Marines then they probably won't because they're so resilient and can generally withstand the opposing firepower, as well as being able to provide their own. However, against Ork Boyz the Bolters and Plasma Gun could have a serious effect on the infantry and so your opponent would at least consider moving into different positions to get into combat almost unharmed, otherwise they'd probably lose relatively easily.

_Marines in a rhino double tapping at anything within 24" is._
With a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter? After delivering it's cargo a Rhino is basically only good for blocking LoS to your units, and it won't be able to do that for long considering it's weak armour. At least if you're footslogging then you have more enemies to target and you're wasting less points.


----------



## sooch

Broken said:


> _That was a rhetorical question._
> I wasn't sure if it was or not but I decided I might as well answer either way.
> 
> _9 bolters and one plasma gun do not create firing columns that will force your opponent down a certain avenue, its just not scary enough._
> I think that depends what army you're up against. If you're playing Plague Marines then they probably won't because they're so resilient and can generally withstand the opposing firepower, as well as being able to provide their own. However, against Ork Boyz the Bolters and Plasma Gun could have a serious effect on the infantry and so your opponent would at least consider moving into different positions to get into combat almost unharmed, otherwise they'd probably lose relatively easily.
> 
> _Marines in a rhino double tapping at anything within 24" is._
> With a Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter? After delivering it's cargo a Rhino is basically only good for blocking LoS to your units, and it won't be able to do that for long considering it's weak armour. At least if you're footslogging then you have more enemies to target and you're wasting less points.


I'm going to have to side with the other guy here, you're making some points that are simply wrong. Ork boyz don't give a shit if you fire 9 bolters and a plasma at them...How tragic, they lose 3 boyz (maybe less if they're in cover). They will STILL charge straight at you. 9 bolters do not a firing column make.

You obviously don't get it...when he says that 10 tac marines can rapid fire anything within 24, he's not talking about the storm bolter silly, he's talking about moving 12 in the rhino, disembarking 2, and then firing 12". That power to reach out and touch someone 26" away with bolters is something that footslogging troops simply cannot do. You talk about blocking LoS like it's no big deal...I disagree strongly. It's like being able to pick up and move a piece of terrain 12" across the board. it's a big deal. So what if they're shooting your rhino? They kill a 35pt transport...good for them. The payload is unharmed, and that's what's important.

How exactly does footslogging give you "more enemies to target"?


----------



## Katie Drake

sooch said:


> How exactly does footslogging give you "more enemies to target"?


I think he means that a footslogging army spends less points on transports so can afford to take more models, thus giving the enemy more to shoot at.

That's what I got out of it, anyway.


----------



## Son of mortarion

in addition to having more models due to more points being spent on "boots on the ground," you have more targets to shoot at since they are not bunched up in a vehicle. 

I don't think that mobility is the entire issue. As many in this thread have said, Sm forces have access to cheap, reliable transports. 

I think the problem(as far as mobility is concerned) is finding a balance between mechanized squads and dismounted squads. being able to move units quickly means little against ork hordes and 'nids, as they will likely be everywhere at once, and in enough numbers that ten marines simply won't cut it. 

Personally, I wouldn't put more marines in vehicles than you can afford to have not shooting in any particular turn. For me, it is around one third or one quarter of the force. I would use them to either move in force on one flank or another, opposite of my main strength, and use them in a manner similar to outflanking/deepstriking units. alternatively, have them go up the center to disrupt the opponent's movement and split the force into smaller, more manageable sizes. as an alternate to rhinos or other tracked transports, I do think that drop pods have merit for transporting tac squads and sternguard.


----------



## Ascendant

Alright, I'm not a super tourney player or even a powerplayer, so I might not have the best grasp of the issue...

But it seems to me like the new codex basically just sucked. It took away a lot of options like chapter traits and made tactical squads less easy to max out.
From my limited experience using the new codex, it seemed like none of the new units were really earning their keep. 

The best I've seen so far are the lists that max out on vindicators/dreads. 
Has a chaplain with an assault squad been proven to be ineffective? The commander didn't seem as good from what I've seen.


----------



## Katie Drake

Ascendant said:


> Has a chaplain with an assault squad been proven to be ineffective? The commander didn't seem as good from what I've seen.


It's not too bad, especially if Shrike is in the army. Assault Marines are considerably cheaper than they were in the last Codex and are just as dangerous. The only real downfall is that the Chaplain isn't as good as he was in the last book.


----------



## Ascendant

Katie Drake said:


> It's not too bad, especially if Shrike is in the army. Assault Marines are considerably cheaper than they were in the last Codex and are just as dangerous. The only real downfall is that the Chaplain isn't as good as he was in the last book.


Yeah, I noticed the chaplains had been tuned down a bit. Too bad, I loved them in the last book and will likely continue to use them. I just love the fluff. 

Is there a particular army people are trying are trying to design against here, or is it just for tourneys?


----------



## Katie Drake

Ascendant said:


> Is there a particular army people are trying are trying to design against here, or is it just for tourneys?


We're trying to create something of a template that'll allow us to build Space Marine armies that can compete for the top spots in Grand Tournaments, because the Marines have been faring poorly ever since the new Codex was released.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Would it be a good idea to look at what has been defeating Marines and how they are defeating them? I was thinking that, since it's a template you are looking for, you could look at the biggest threats to Marines (i.e. Hordes, MCs, Armor), look at how much you can expect to see of each and design a list based on combining any specialization that Marines have to destroy those threats, proportionate to how common it is to see any particular threat.

If, like it sounds, Hordes are running rampant, but Nidzilla style armies are less common, design a list that is focused say 75% that can kill hordes well and 25% that can kill MCs well. Ideally something that can do both (ML) would be best. I think the best idea is finding a blend of octane and volume of fire to bring most armies down. Admittedly, probably not going to work against specialized lists that would be more common in tournaments, but it could bring Marines at a lower level to be a feared opponent.

One perfect list probably doesn't exist but finding units and weapons that can kill certain enemies well will allow people to mix a little of this and a little of that to get what they need. If we can define the parts we can be closer to finding a whole that is capable against most armies.


----------



## Katie Drake

Underground Heretic said:


> Would it be a good idea to look at what has been defeating Marines and how they are defeating them? I was thinking that, since it's a template you are looking for, you could look at the biggest threats to Marines (i.e. Hordes, MCs, Armor), look at how much you can expect to see of each and design a list based on combining any specialization that Marines have to destroy those threats, proportionate to how common it is to see any particular threat.
> 
> If, like it sounds, Hordes are running rampant, but Nidzilla style armies are less common, design a list that is focused say 75% that can kill hordes well and 25% that can kill MCs well. Ideally something that can do both (ML) would be best. I think the best idea is finding a blend of octane and volume of fire to bring most armies down. Admittedly, probably not going to work against specialized lists that would be more common in tournaments, but it could bring Marines at a lower level to be a feared opponent.


Well, as far as I can tell there are roughly five armies that give the current Marines trouble.

1. Orks with their crazy Nob Bikers, Battlewagon Spam, Loota Death, etc.
2. Chaos Space Marines with their mountains of Obliterators, deadly Lash Princes, Plague Marines and Thousand Sons, all of which are excellent choices.
3. Tyranids. Nidzilla lists are still nasty, though they feature a lot more Troops nowadays. Scouting Genestealers, Without Number Gaunts in addition to the usual shitton of Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.
4. Eldar and their usual tricks. It's difficult for Marines to deal with those dreadful Howling Banshees, especially after they've leapt from a Wave Serpent and a Farseer has _Doomed_ their target. Jetbike riding Seer Councils are another issue.
5. Daemons with Bloodcrusher heavy armies with lots of Horrors and Plaguebearers.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Admittedly, my opinion is colored as a Tau player who live in the shooting phase and dies in assault.

Eldar
The wave serpent nerfs anything S 9 or greater to S 8, so my recommendation would be to forget S 9 or 10 weapons against Wave Serpents. They will get nerfed, so make the nerfing work for you. Don't bring Lascannons against Eldar, bring Multi-Meltas or missile launchers, especially against Eldar. For Eldar vehicles, everything has AV 12 or less. Krak missles glance/pen on 4/5+ and Wave Serpents can't have the Holo-fields upgrade, making them much easier for a S 8 weapon to kill. The Farseer is an excellent support unit, so killing it should be a high priority. The question is how. AP does not matter, as their save is invulnerable. Any weapon that is Strength 5 or greater wounds on 2+, S 6+ causing Instant Death. Plasma is as strong as I would use against them. Sternguard would work with their Hellfire rounds again, virtually ensuring enough failed saves. Target priority is necessary to defeat Mech Eldar: Target Wave Serpents first as it will be easier to take down the aspects on foot. Try to pump the Farseer full of Hellfire ASAP. If you can crack the Serpents, try to get heavy bolter fire on the aspects, you'll be piercing Banshee armor, except for the Exarch.

Target Priority: Transports, Cargo
Target Priority (Sternguard): Farseer, Wraithguard or Wraithlord

Daemons
Sternguard are again your answer for the bloodcrushers and plague bearers. It's not going to guarantee death, but they can ensure hits will wound. Against high T, you need high strength or poison to "fake" the strength. Most high strength weapons are expensive and static. If you really want to screw with a daemon player, bring an Epistolary with Null Zone and Force dome. Join him to whatever unit will be hit by a Khorne unit and pray that your powers trigger. Null Zone is pure Daemon hate. The good side of Horrors is that they need to be within your range (and Null Zone range) to shoot at you. Make them pay in the shooting phase if there are Khornate or Slanneshi daemons around, if pure Tzeentch I would charge them. To stop Bloodcrushers, I would forget S and AP, honestly. Plasma Cannons will force invuls on a 2+, but will not get many hits. Hellfire. 

Target Priority: Chaos Icons, Epididimus, Closest unit.

Try-a-nids (taste the swarm)
Hordes, Hordes, Hordes. If you can stop the gaunts the Carnifexes will get you. If you stop the Carnifexes the guants will get you. Here is where I have to recommend specialization: Anything that can pump out shots first needs focused on the gaunts. So &%^&*^ many of them. Here is what I can hopefully recommend: you need to put together a fire base and bring Heavy bolters and Missle Launchers. Reach out to them before they can reach you. As open a spot as you can get is ideal. Yes, it allows them to get more models in the 2" coherency for fighting, but it makes them cover ground in the open, under fire. Get ten Devastators 2 HB, 2 ML and combat squad them. Focus on on the Hive Tyrant or any other Synapse creature with the MLs and any smaller creatures with the HBs. The only non-MC that can stop a HB round is the brood lord, but he can't stop a _lot_ of them. 

Target Priority (HB and below): Infiltrated Scouting Stealers, Closest unit
Target Priority (Big guns): Synapse creatures, Closest Carnifex

Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators and Lash. All I can say for a take all comers list is, like everything else, pump them full to the gills of shots. Those Hellfire rounds seem like a Godsend against most elements listed, and Vengence will hurt the rest. Thousand Sons love AP 3, so give them as much as they can take. If in doubt, rhino rush your Sternguard into 12" and rapid fire them. A full squad of 20 Sons will survive with enough power to punish your Sternguard, but we're looking at a unit almost twice the price of a ten man Sternguard with rhino (507 min.). Plague Marines can keep their FNP, take their power armor with your Vengeance rounds. Lash princes can be a beast, but if they show up, Krak them and throw Hellfire. They will need to 5+ save for each Krak and 3+ for each Hellfire round, but since they all wound on 2+ that's a lot of saves to make.

Target Priority: Deamon Princes, Oblits, Sons, Plague Marines

Orks
Nob Bikerz, such an elite choice it's not funny if you are fighting them. Really there isn't much that you can do against them but, again, pump them to the gills. You cannot deny all their saves, except with a Demolisher cannon, so don't worry about it. Force them to make as many saves as possible and a partridge in a pear tree. Hellfire rounds are your best friends here again. Against Lootas (I love them, personally), give them Dragonfire rounds. Pierces their armor and ignores the cover they may be in or get from firing through intervening units. The only problem is getting in range: 48 inches of 7/4 death for 15 points a model. Battlewagons are a tough piece of work to deal with. The only thing I can suggest is to try to get the angle on them, or charge them with a PF Assault sergeant. If you can get to their sides or rear armor they will crumble, but you need to move tactically to get someone in the firing angle.

Target Priority: Nob Bikers, Battlewagons, Lootas

Overall Notes
Space Marines are a Swiss army knife. Don't buy the machete or chainsaw, get the attachment that slices and dices for a quarter. Marines can do decent tricks that will work against any army to a greater or lesser degree, try to maximize this. You aren't Eldar, don't try to be. Embrace the Bs on the report card instead of AAAFF.

Don't leave home without
Sternguard: 250 points of Swiss goodness
2 HB, 2 ML Devastators (150 for five, 230 for combat squading): Able to deal with small and large foes as well as being able to divide fire as needed to make the most of what you have.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

Underground Heretic said:


> Admittedly, my opinion is colored as a Tau player who live in the shooting phase and dies in assault.
> 
> Eldar
> The wave serpent nerfs anything S 9 or greater to S 8, so my recommendation would be to forget S 9 or 10 weapons against Wave Serpents. They will get nerfed, so make the nerfing work for you. Don't bring Lascannons against Eldar, bring Multi-Meltas or missile launchers, especially against Eldar. For Eldar vehicles, everything has AV 12 or less. Krak missles glance/pen on 4/5+ and Wave Serpents can't have the Holo-fields upgrade, making them much easier for a S 8 weapon to kill. The Farseer is an excellent support unit, so killing it should be a high priority. The question is how. AP does not matter, as their save is invulnerable. Any weapon that is Strength 5 or greater wounds on 2+, S 6+ causing Instant Death. Plasma is as strong as I would use against them. Sternguard would work with their Hellfire rounds again, virtually ensuring enough failed saves. Target priority is necessary to defeat Mech Eldar: Target Wave Serpents first as it will be easier to take down the aspects on foot. Try to pump the Farseer full of Hellfire ASAP. If you can crack the Serpents, try to get heavy bolter fire on the aspects, you'll be piercing Banshee armor, except for the Exarch.
> 
> Target Priority: Transports, Cargo
> Target Priority (Sternguard): Farseer, Wraithguard or Wraithlord


I am a big fan of using a 5 man Grey Knight squad with an incinerator, and Epistolary with Gate and Avenger. It has amazing range and firepower, it has a _very_ fluid mobility and is fast as hell.anything in the Eldar backline dies a painful death to this unit, and after 1 turn of retribution (which they are likely to come out of mostly in tact) they can exfiltrate themselves (something Sternguard cant do). Godd points/strategies otherwise.



Underground Heretic said:


> Daemons
> Sternguard are again your answer for the bloodcrushers and plague bearers. It's not going to guarantee death, but they can ensure hits will wound. Against high T, you need high strength or poison to "fake" the strength. Most high strength weapons are expensive and static. If you really want to screw with a daemon player, bring an Epistolary with Null Zone and Force dome. Join him to whatever unit will be hit by a Khorne unit and pray that your powers trigger. Null Zone is pure Daemon hate. The good side of Horrors is that they need to be within your range (and Null Zone range) to shoot at you. Make them pay in the shooting phase if there are Khornate or Slanneshi daemons around, if pure Tzeentch I would charge them. To stop Bloodcrushers, I would forget S and AP, honestly. Plasma Cannons will force invuls on a 2+, but will not get many hits. Hellfire.
> 
> Target Priority: Chaos Icons, Epididimus, Closest unit.


against lists like these, I normally find myself turtling up. Put devastators in cover with a CC heavy buddy close enough to stop them dead, or thin them out enough so that they get gunned down outright the next turn. If incinerators show up, just expect to lose 1 squad. As for the greater daemons, expect to either A) sacrifice 1 CC squad to bring it down, or B) lose an HQ choice specifically kitted out to take down MC's. (Libby with Quickening and Might of the Ancients or Chapter master with a relic blade works best for this). (note I'm not saying your wrong, just adding to possibilities in such a manner that it is easy for people to see, as I mostly agree with most of this)



Underground Heretic said:


> Try-a-nids (taste the swarm)
> Hordes, Hordes, Hordes. If you can stop the gaunts the Carnifexes will get you. If you stop the Carnifexes the guants will get you. Here is where I have to recommend specialization: Anything that can pump out shots first needs focused on the gaunts. So &%^&*^ many of them. Here is what I can hopefully recommend: you need to put together a fire base and bring Heavy bolters and Missle Launchers. Reach out to them before they can reach you. As open a spot as you can get is ideal. Yes, it allows them to get more models in the 2" coherency for fighting, but it makes them cover ground in the open, under fire. Get ten Devastators 2 HB, 2 ML and combat squad them. Focus on on the Hive Tyrant or any other Synapse creature with the MLs and any smaller creatures with the HBs. The only non-MC that can stop a HB round is the brood lord, but he can't stop a _lot_ of them.
> 
> Target Priority (HB and below): Infiltrated Scouting Stealers, Closest unit
> Target Priority (Big guns): Synapse creatures, Closest Carnifex


I actually play a guy who runs a Tyrant, 2 'Fexes, 3 w/out number gaunt squads, 20 Hormagaunts, 20 Stealers (infiltrating & outflanking) and 3 warriors (venom cannons). I usually completely forgo CC units against this list. 2 10 man devs (one with ML's and one with HB's) for a base, 3 tacs (2 PC's, one LC, and 3 flamers) as a base. what I found works bes is to have the fire base focus on one brood, so that the 3 tacs can focus on the remnants and burn through it to the nex squad. With the ML's taking pot-shots at the big'uns, by the time my fists reach them they drop from only 1 or 2 P-fist hits. I normally keep a decent CC specialist at home in case the Stealers flank real close by (as they usually do). I feel that that plan is a good start for anti Nid-zilla, but it needs something (also, these are only 1050 games, as the other guy doesnt have much cash devote to rapid expansion (his wife/GF (not sure wich) is the restraining factor))



Underground Heretic said:


> Chaos Space Marines
> Obliterators and Lash. All I can say for a take all comers list is, like everything else, pump them full to the gills of shots. Those Hellfire rounds seem like a Godsend against most elements listed, and Vengence will hurt the rest. Thousand Sons love AP 3, so give them as much as they can take. If in doubt, rhino rush your Sternguard into 12" and rapid fire them. A full squad of 20 Sons will survive with enough power to punish your Sternguard, but we're looking at a unit almost twice the price of a ten man Sternguard with rhino (507 min.). Plague Marines can keep their FNP, take their power armor with your Vengeance rounds. Lash princes can be a beast, but if they show up, Krak them and throw Hellfire. They will need to 5+ save for each Krak and 3+ for each Hellfire round, but since they all wound on 2+ that's a lot of saves to make.
> 
> Target Priority: Deamon Princes, Oblits, Sons, Plague Marines


agreed



Underground Heretic said:


> Orks
> Nob Bikerz, such an elite choice it's not funny if you are fighting them. Really there isn't much that you can do against them but, again, pump them to the gills. You cannot deny all their saves, except with a Demolisher cannon, so don't worry about it. Force them to make as many saves as possible and a partridge in a pear tree. Hellfire rounds are your best friends here again. Against Lootas (I love them, personally), give them Dragonfire rounds. Pierces their armor and ignores the cover they may be in or get from firing through intervening units. The only problem is getting in range: 48 inches of 7/4 death for 15 points a model. Battlewagons are a tough piece of work to deal with. The only thing I can suggest is to try to get the angle on them, or charge them with a PF Assault sergeant. If you can get to their sides or rear armor they will crumble, but you need to move tactically to get someone in the firing angle.
> 
> Target Priority: Nob Bikers, Battlewagons, Lootas
> 
> 
> Overall Notes
> Space Marines are a Swiss army knife. Don't buy the machete or chainsaw, get the attachment that slices and dices for a quarter. Marines can do decent tricks that will work against any army to a greater or lesser degree, try to maximize this. You aren't Eldar, don't try to be. Embrace the Bs on the report card instead of AAAFF.
> 
> Don't leave home without
> Sternguard: 250 points of Swiss goodness
> 2 HB, 2 ML Devastators (150 for five, 230 for combat squading): Able to deal with small and large foes as well as being able to divide fire as needed to make the most of what you have.


[/QUOTE]

mostly, I agree, although I would suggest 2 dev squads, and a good CC unit. (TH/SS termies with a chappy, some assaults, Captain/Master with a Command Squad/Honour Guard work decent for this)


anyone tried the TFC? as I am considering mocking one of these up.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I think they are trying to make a list to take on all comers. Whil eyou rideas are great, they are based on changing your list to suit. At least, thats the impression I got. :wink:


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## Katie Drake

Dessel_Ordo said:


> As for the greater daemons, expect to either A) sacrifice 1 CC squad to bring it down, or B) lose an HQ choice specifically kitted out to take down MC's. (Libby with Quickening and Might of the Ancients or Chapter master with a relic blade works best for this).


I wouldn't suggest doing this against either a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets (especially the Keeper). Unless you have a huge unit of Vanguard or a medium sized unit of Assault Terminators armed with thunder hammers and storm shields either Greater Daemon can shred a dedicated assault squad before they even get to attack. Both of these massive Daemons have at least 5 attacks each and a WS high enough to hit even your best HQ choices on a 3+. They'll also wound with ease since they have such a high Strength and will ignore armor saves due to being Monstrous Creatures.

Also, no Captain or Librarian's going to last long against a Bloodthirster or Keeper especially. The Keeper has the highest Initiative in the game and enough attacks to kill a Captain or Master before he even gets to attack (you can expect to hit four times, wound fourish times and it only takes one bad round of Invulnerable saves for that Captain to drop), while the Bloodthirster will take on average only a single Wound (since you'll hit twice assuming you're charging with your Captain armed with Relic Blade and Wound once, which results in .5 Wounds due to the 'Thirster's Invulnerable save) before lashing out with his high number of Attacks and causing Instant Death to your poor HQ.


----------



## Someguy

This does illustrate something of a problem for marine players, in that we tend not to have any unit that we are particularly happy to throw away by feeding it to a GD. The units we could use for doing this aren't actually all that great at it because they are small.

You should never initiate a CC that you will lose. All you are doing is throwing a unit away and moving the enemy D6" closer. Instead, if you must, put a unit somewhere that it is protecting your more valuable guys so that the enemy has to charge it. Then you can shoot the daemon again in your next turn.

There are some strategies for dealing with mass deep strike that are worth looking at.

Often, the best thing is to not deploy. Against Daemons I always choose to go second (what's the point of first turn when the enemy isn't there?) and then usually put my whole army in reserve. Marines do not excel at this, especially in objective games, as we can find ourselves the wrong side of the table, but it's a hell of a lot better than taking all the flamer death.

Castling can work. It can work very well if you have a DH inquisitor with two mystics and a unit packing some serious firepower nearby. Deep strikers tend to come down in fairly small units that don't respond well to having 8 storm bolters and a couple of psycannons shot at them, or something like that. This tends to ward off the flamers and horrors well, but may not deter bloodcrushers and greater daemons. It still hurts them though, and they don't fire back much so you get another full shooting phase.

If neither option works then my advice is to mount up and spread out. If you have first turn, move. Most deep striking guys are slow once they are down and in a chaotic battlefield they can end up wasting time chasing you around, where they could otherwise pin you in a corner and annihilate you. Even a rhino provides huge protection against flamers, bloodletters and the like. The rhino may well die, but then you have your squad sitting there and it's your turn.


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## sooch

1750 - Making Marines Work v5.o - Space Marines

HQ

Darnath [email protected]

Elites

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield]@200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer]@295pts

5 Sternguard Marines [4x Combi-meltas, Razorback w/ TL Heavy Flamer]@210pts

Troops

5 Scouts [1x Power Fist, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols]@100pts

5 Scouts [1x Power Fist, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols]@100pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer]@60pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta]@260pts

Total Points_1750

This is the latest iteration of this list. It's performed well so far, with no losses to mech chaos/nidzilla yet. More testing to follow.

UPDATE: I should try dropping the tacs/rhino and the sniper scouts for the 2x storms with 5x scouts w/ powerfist in each. I like being able to zoom to contest or grab objectives....it's something I felt like I lacked when I played this list.


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## Vashtek

Think I would definitely have a Storm. My 1750 list would be something like:

HQ	
Pedro Kantor	

Elites	
5 Assault Terminators	

10 Sternguard Marines 9x combi-weapons	

5 Sternguard Marines 5x combi weapons
Razorback- heavy bolter 

Troops	
Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines, missile launcher, flamer, powerfist	
Rhino

Scout Squad: 4xsniper rifles, rocket launcher, melta bombs 

Fast Attack	
Land Speeder Storm: H flamer	

Heavy Support	
Land Raider Redeemer- multi-melta	

Land Raider Crusader- multi-melta	

The tactical squad can go in the raider with the sternguard taking the rhino if you want to assault with them. I'm still unsure of:
1. redeemer/crusader or crusader/crusader. 
2. Extra armour on the land raiders
3. how many points to spend on the scout squad. Powerfist would be nice but I don't want to blow that many points on a pretty fragile (and sometimes suicidal) squad.


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> Think I would definitely have a Storm. My 1750 list would be something like:
> 
> HQ
> Pedro Kantor
> 
> Elites
> 5 Assault Terminators
> 
> 10 Sternguard Marines 9x combi-weapons
> 
> 5 Sternguard Marines 5x combi weapons
> Razorback- heavy bolter
> 
> Troops
> Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines, missile launcher, flamer, powerfist
> Rhino
> 
> Scout Squad: 4xsniper rifles, rocket launcher, melta bombs
> 
> Fast Attack
> Land Speeder Storm: H flamer
> 
> Heavy Support
> Land Raider Redeemer- multi-melta
> 
> Land Raider Crusader- multi-melta
> 
> The tactical squad can go in the raider with the sternguard taking the rhino if you want to assault with them. I'm still unsure of:
> 1. redeemer/crusader or crusader/crusader.
> 2. Extra armour on the land raiders
> 3. how many points to spend on the scout squad. Powerfist would be nice but I don't want to blow that many points on a pretty fragile (and sometimes suicidal) squad.


I'm still a fan of the crusader/crusader. Extra armor should go on only one of the raiders (the one with the assault squad inside). Scout squad I don't spend more than 100pts on it (either powerfist, or camo cloaks/missile, both combos add to 100).

UPDATE: I tried out the list I posted above, except instead of the 2 troops I posted, I put in 2x 5 scouts with pfists, and 2x LS storms with heavy flamers (the points line up perfectly and nothing else needs to be swapped around). This is GREAT. I played a 5 objective mission and won by 2 objectives against another SM player using asscan spam (and 3 full squads of tac marines), and this sort of shows that you don't need max troops to take max objectives, so long as you can contest all the ones you dont want. Speeder storms are irritating to the opponent, and the crusaders pump out ridiculous amounts of fire. Definitely sold on the crusader now, and not the redeemer.

Lysander is great as a tarpit unit all by himself, due to eternal warrior and a storm shield/terminator armor. Stubborn is actually really useful in this list, since it holds your opponents in place until your assault termies are near enough to charge. This benefit is not apparent in a pure shooty army (with, say, max sternguard or something) since you just get killed more slowly, but with the assault termies around it's great.

I think I've found my list


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## Ferik

Tried out a 2 10 man Sternguard units in Landraiders this weekend with both Pedro and Lysander in the list Lysander works great with the Sternguard having only missed with them 1 or 2 times in any given shooting faze I did loose due to having one of the units Lashed (though I was barely in range and not quite out of LOS) and then gunned down by several units of Noise Marines but overall they did perform relitively well and my opponent was not overly impressed either. 

So yes Sternguard are good you just have to very careful with them ore you loose a main cornerstone of your army.

Anouther thing I'm looking into is consructing a Marine list based off the CSM codex examples would be Vanguard/ Honour Guard and Karoso Khan = Khorne berzerkers, Sternguard = Thousand Sons, Command Squad = Plague Marines ect.. just food for thought is all the point cost for each ends up being pretty even and the same tactics can be applied as well.


----------



## Someguy

Ferik said:


> Anouther thing I'm looking into is consructing a Marine list based off the CSM codex examples would be Vanguard/ Honour Guard and Karoso Khan = Khorne berzerkers, Sternguard = Thousand Sons, Command Squad = Plague Marines ect.. just food for thought is all the point cost for each ends up being pretty even and the same tactics can be applied as well.


Unfortunately, you have just thrown into horrible clarity just how marines suffer when directly compared to CSM. The chaos units you mention are cheaper, are troops, and are still better than the marine copycats.

Zerkers are 4 points cheaper than vanguard, are fearless and have better WS. A zerker skull champion is actually more dangerous than a lot of ICs, and about on a parr with Khan when on foot (though khan has his instant death thing).

Sternguard are nothing like Tsons. Where is your 4+ invulnerable and SnP? Why are your bolters getting hot? Sternguard do at least have some advantages over Tsons that make them more versatile but watch out in a straight shoot out.

Plague marines are tougher than command squads and don't lose their FNP if their apothecary has an accident.

In all cases the marines have the option to throw points down the toilet on untold amounts of upgrades if they like, but at that point it becomes difficult to compare them with anything. 

In conclusion: don't try to copy chaos. Chaos are better at being chaos than we are. We will fail just as surely as if we tried to copy Tau or Nids, and we are better off playing our own army than wishing we had another one.


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## Ferik

Yeah I did know that CSM would be far better in many aspects I was just using the idea as a basis for a potential list but as you said their is just too many problems with doing so and to even get close I would have to use multiple special characters like Khan to even get it to work.

Yes there is quite a point varience but it is relitivly close 10 man bezerker squad fully kitted runs around 290 a 9 man vanguard with 7 PW runs around 295 but then have Khan for the Furious charge and the price sky rockets and Pedro for extra attacks so yes it is stupidly pricey just to get something that compares just not point effiecent and too many eggs in one basket.

So perhaps looking into counter units to help take care of all these cheap hard hitting units every other army has and the closest thing we to do this right now seems to be Sternguard and technically they are only about 50pts more expensive than a normal fully kitted Tactical squad.

I would almost say spam Sternguard if I didn't feel like that would be a very bad and expensive idea.

Also as you've mentioned before there Someguy perhaps we should look more into using Witch Hunters and Deamon Hunters as well.

I don't know wracking my brain trying to figure this problem out since ther seems no sure fire way of dealing with all the potential problems with the Marine dex right now.

Well I leave it at that for now.


----------



## Someguy

I probably came across too harshly. Apologies if that is so.

It's well worth looking at what makes other armies good and seeing what our options are in those areas. We should look at all our options and there are no stupid questions. Sometimes you do get a dud but other times you get good stuff, so keep them coming.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Looking into adding elements from inquisitorial armies is not the answer, since the question is how to make Space marines more effective. By looking at adding elements from other armies, that is saying that marines are not viable on their own.


----------



## Underground Heretic

So I guess we need to make a decision: Are we looking for a list and tactics based entirely on the Codex: Space Marines or are we using Inquisitorial allies?

My vote is for straight up Space Marines.


----------



## sooch

I think that marines includes allies. Using all the resources at your disposal is not something that should be frowned upon when trying to make a viable marine list.


----------



## Katie Drake

Son of mortarion said:


> Looking into adding elements from inquisitorial armies is not the answer, since the question is how to make Space marines more effective.


I addressed this earlier in the thread and you're incorrect. Making Space Marines work means winning with a Space Marine army (i.e. Space Marines being your parent list).


> By looking at adding elements from other armies, that is saying that marines are not viable on their own.


And for all we know, that may very well be the case. It's like a pure Daemonhunters army - it simply suffers badly if used on its own.

Anyone who doesn't like the idea of adding allied Inquisitorial units into their armies are completely free to ignore mentions of that in people's posts and to exclude them from their own lists. That doesn't mean that we'll stop discussing allies, however.


----------



## sooch

Katie Drake said:


> I addressed this earlier in the thread and you're incorrect. Making Space Marines work means winning with a Space Marine army (i.e. Space Marines being your parent list).
> 
> 
> And for all we know, that may very well be the case. It's like a pure Daemonhunters army - it simply suffers badly if used on its own.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't like the idea of adding allied Inquisitorial units into their armies are completely free to ignore mentions of that in people's posts and to exclude them from their own lists. That doesn't mean that we'll stop discussing allies, however.


Well said.


----------



## Ferik

Someguy said:


> I probably came across too harshly. Apologies if that is so.
> 
> It's well worth looking at what makes other armies good and seeing what our options are in those areas. We should look at all our options and there are no stupid questions. Sometimes you do get a dud but other times you get good stuff, so keep them coming.


Gee thanks:shok: lol, no problem though was just thinking outside of the box is all, maybe I'll hit it on the nose next time....:victory:


----------



## Ferik

Lately I have been finding that my game play with Marines is defensive and I rely on repositioning for the first couple of turns while the opponent advances and then striking at the opportune moment. 

So I believe Marines are not a in your face aggressive army which has been said many times in the form of being a "scaple" as such they should be considered a elite army so think SWAT, Navy Seals, Commandos, SAS ect... 

Now I know that pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread understands this just felt to have a part to reinterate this in my own words.

So now what units best represent this in our codex?

Sternguard I do agree are one of them so should be at least 1 unit of them in every list but should be considered a "Black Ops" unit and should be used carefully to take out core units of the enemy and not just any jo blow unit which is not utilizing their abilities to their full potential.

Also I believe that Marines should generally stay away from any combat oriented units since they just do not compare to any of the combat oriented armies/ units which will always have either better WS, Initiative or Attacks against any non-combat oriented army a normal Marine functions just fine.

In that light we should look at shooting while I do admit that it is mostly all close range it is our main strength especially at WS 4 so I think some new stratigies built around this might be in our best interest though I have no idea were to start on that yet.

Anyways sorry for the rant but there it is.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## sooch

Ferik said:


> Lately I have been finding that my game play with Marines is defensive and I rely on repositioning for the first couple of turns while the opponent advances and then striking at the opportune moment.
> 
> So I believe Marines are not a in your face aggressive army which has been said many times in the form of being a "scaple" as such they should be considered a elite army so think SWAT, Navy Seals, Commandos, SAS ect...
> 
> Now I know that pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread understands this just felt to have a part to reinterate this in my own words.
> 
> So now what units best represent this in our codex?
> 
> Sternguard I do agree are one of them so should be at least 1 unit of them in every list but should be considered a "Black Ops" unit and should be used carefully to take out core units of the enemy and not just any jo blow unit which is not utilizing their abilities to their full potential.
> 
> Also I believe that Marines should generally stay away from any combat oriented units since they just do not compare to any of the combat oriented armies/ units which will always have either better WS, Initiative or Attacks against any non-combat oriented army a normal Marine functions just fine.
> 
> In that light we should look at shooting while I do admit that it is mostly all close range it is our main strength especially at WS 4 so I think some new stratigies built around this might be in our best interest though I have no idea were to start on that yet.
> 
> Anyways sorry for the rant but there it is.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


You have some good points. You're certainly right about marines not being an aggressive army...they need to be played carefully because each marine lost represents a significant loss in fighting power (especially when playing with the elite lists that have been toyed with recently with GK, sternguard, or assault termies). You have to play the army carefully, unlike an army such as ork horde where you just charge forward and hope for good run rolls. Sound strategy goes a long way to winning games, often farther than a good army list.

I did some more playtesting over vassal with my lysander list, and found that some templates would really help. I did a lot of tank shocking with the raiders, and every so often with the razorback. My opponents were frequently in template friendly formations and even with 2 storm flamers I wanted more. By dropping a couple of combi weapons here and there, I picked up 3 heavy flamers on the sternguard. I also swapped out lysander for Vulkan, because it now looks like I'm running large amounts of melta and flamer weaponry. We'll see how this new iteration works out.

*1750 - Making Marines Work v6.o - Space Marines*

*HQ*

Vulkan He'stan @ 190pts

*Elites*

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield] @ 200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas, 2x Heavy Flamer] @ 310pts

5 Sternguard Marines [4x Combi-meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer, Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter] @ 195pts

*Troops*

5 Scouts [1x Power Fist, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols] @ 100pts

5 Scouts [1x Power Fist, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols] @ 100pts

*Fast Attack*

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer] @ 60pts

Land Speeder Storm [Heavy Flamer] @ 60pts
*
Heavy Support*

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor] @ 275pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta] @ 260pts

*Total Points_1750*


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Mixing the Combi-Melta with the Heavy Flamers in the sternguards squads looks like a great idea! Looks like a very solid list.


----------



## gawbo005

there are only 10 troop choice models, you would have to hide them in the back to make sure they never get shot at and if your opponent wipes them out you sunk for claiming any victory. Other then that I love the build and Im gonna try it out to see how it plays


----------



## Ferik

Heres a 2000pts list I came up with a change from my normal routine (I usually like to have more to work with)

HQ
Pedro Kantor

Darnath Lysander

TROOP 
10 Space Marines
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Power Weapon
Rhino

10 Space Marines
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Power Weapon
Rhino

ELITE
10 Sternguard
4 Combi-Flamers
4 Combi-Melta
Powerfist
Rhino

10 Sternguard
4 Combi-Flamers
4 Combi-Melta
Powerfist
Rhino

HEAVY
Landraider Crusader
Landraider Redeemer


----------



## MaidenManiac

Are the Sternguards really gonna ride their Rhinos in that list Ferik? It looks very much like 10 Sternguards+1 SC in each LR to me. Those will go all ahead over the table anyways to shoot. Dump one combi weapon/squad and uppgrade the Rhinos to Razorbacks for more shooting


----------



## Ferik

MaidenManiac said:


> Are the Sternguards really gonna ride their Rhinos in that list Ferik? It looks very much like 10 Sternguards+1 SC in each LR to me. Those will go all ahead over the table anyways to shoot. Dump one combi weapon/squad and uppgrade the Rhinos to Razorbacks for more shooting


I figured this question would come up.

The main plan for the Rhinos is to run them empty and keep them in front of the Landraiders to provide a constant hull down or anouther option is to play the "clamshell" game with them and may or may not have the squad in it or not.


----------



## Someguy

There have been lots of interesting suggestions. I thought I’d throw a list out myself and see what people thought. I’m aiming for 1750 points because the next couple of events I’m likely to go to will be at that value. The most obvious thing about this army is that it has three land raiders in it, which is a lot of land raiders. Inside are a collection of angry people. I also have a land speeder storm and some scouts to ride around in it.

Lysander. 200

Scout squad. Sergeant with fist and sniper rifle, 3 with sniper rifle and pistol, one with hvy bolter and pistol. 110

LS Storm for them to ride around in, with hvy flamer. 60

10 man Tactical squad. Combi-flamer and flamer, hvy plasma gun. 185

Justicar and 7 GKs. 2 Incinerators. 245
Might spend a point buying a bolt pistol for the Justicar in exchange for his storm bolter. Would give +1 attack on the charge and prolly worth it with a WS5 str6 power wep.

10 Sisters of Battle. Flamer and hvy flamer, vet with book and combi-flamer. 157

LR Crusader with multi-melta. 260

LR Crusader with multi-melta. 260

LR Redeemer with multi-melta and extra armour. 265

Yes by the way, I do like template weapons.

I've got 8 points spare. Not sure what to do with them to be honest, but probably a melta bomb here and a bolt pistol there. I could turn one of the crusaders into a redeemer with extra armour if that turns out to be better.

I imagine that this is a list that would raise a couple of eyebrows among purists. The addition of sisters and GKs to the list is a stretch, I have a special char and 3 armour-14 tanks.

There are some reasons for some of my choices beyond what is purely effective. I have some sisters I want to use, including a converted redeemer that I’m working on. I have some ideas for GKs and Lysander conversions that might be fun to do, and I’ve already built a storm.

However, I do think the list will work quite well. I’d be pretty confident vs chaos I think, though obliterators could be a problem. Daemons wouldn’t be too hard and I pack enough templates to deal with rather a lot of orks. I’m not at all sure what would happen against nob bikers or lots of MCs, though I’m sure Lysander would have something to say about it.

The list has a fairly low KP count at 9 and a decent number of scoring units at 4 (or 5 if I combat squad). I think it’s fairly tough and also quite killy, though I have almost no long range firepower. There are several things it's vulnerable to, like railguns and meltas, but I think it should perform ok overall.


----------



## fett14622

WOW 3 *LR*! Very strong Someguy.:victory:

You will have to let us know how you make out with you list.


----------



## sooch

Someguy said:


> There have been lots of interesting suggestions. I thought I’d throw a list out myself and see what people thought. I’m aiming for 1750 points because the next couple of events I’m likely to go to will be at that value. The most obvious thing about this army is that it has three land raiders in it, which is a lot of land raiders. Inside are a collection of angry people. I also have a land speeder storm and some scouts to ride around in it.
> 
> Lysander. 200
> 
> Scout squad. Sergeant with fist and sniper rifle, 3 with sniper rifle and pistol, one with hvy bolter and pistol. 110
> 
> LS Storm for them to ride around in, with hvy flamer. 60
> 
> 10 man Tactical squad. Combi-flamer and flamer, hvy plasma gun. 185
> 
> Justicar and 7 GKs. 2 Incinerators. 245
> Might spend a point buying a bolt pistol for the Justicar in exchange for his storm bolter. Would give +1 attack on the charge and prolly worth it with a WS5 str6 power wep.
> 
> 10 Sisters of Battle. Flamer and hvy flamer, vet with book and combi-flamer. 157
> 
> LR Crusader with multi-melta. 260
> 
> LR Crusader with multi-melta. 260
> 
> LR Redeemer with multi-melta and extra armour. 265
> 
> Yes by the way, I do like template weapons.
> 
> I've got 8 points spare. Not sure what to do with them to be honest, but probably a melta bomb here and a bolt pistol there. I could turn one of the crusaders into a redeemer with extra armour if that turns out to be better.
> 
> I imagine that this is a list that would raise a couple of eyebrows among purists. The addition of sisters and GKs to the list is a stretch, I have a special char and 3 armour-14 tanks.
> 
> There are some reasons for some of my choices beyond what is purely effective. I have some sisters I want to use, including a converted redeemer that I’m working on. I have some ideas for GKs and Lysander conversions that might be fun to do, and I’ve already built a storm.
> 
> However, I do think the list will work quite well. I’d be pretty confident vs chaos I think, though obliterators could be a problem. Daemons wouldn’t be too hard and I pack enough templates to deal with rather a lot of orks. I’m not at all sure what would happen against nob bikers or lots of MCs, though I’m sure Lysander would have something to say about it.
> 
> The list has a fairly low KP count at 9 and a decent number of scoring units at 4 (or 5 if I combat squad). I think it’s fairly tough and also quite killy, though I have almost no long range firepower. There are several things it's vulnerable to, like railguns and meltas, but I think it should perform ok overall.


Yeah you're missing antitank with this list. 3 non-twin-linked multimeltas probably won't cut it, I'm afraid. Maybe put the sisters in an immolator and give them a meltagun, and stick a multimelta on the tactical squad. Try out the list and see how it works, but I feel like your hammer units are your raiders and the things inside actually aren't that scary.

1750 - Making Marines Work v6.5 - Space Marines

HQ

Vulkan He'stan @ 190pts

Elites

5 Assault Terminators [5x Thunder Hammer, 5x Storm Shield] @ 200pts

10 Sternguard Marines [8x Combi-meltas, 2x Heavy Flamer] @ 310pts

5 Sternguard Marines [4x Combi-meltas, 1x Heavy Flamer, Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter] @ 195pts

Troops

5 Scouts [1x Power Weapon, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols, 1x Meltabombs] @ 95pts

5 Scouts [1x Power Weapon, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols, 1x Meltabombs] @ 95pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm [Multimelta] @ 65pts

Land Speeder Storm [Multimelta] @ 65pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta, Extra Armor] @ 275pts

Land Raider Crusader [Multimelta] @ 260pts

Total Points_1750


----------



## Someguy

I'm actually relatively happy with the amount of AT I'm bringing in my list. Hard to say without trying it, but 3 multi-meltas is not everything I can do. Actually, if somebody is using a lot of vehicles then they tend to either be numerous light things, which I have many ways of stopping, or eldar, in which case you may as well not bother. If there are things like hammerheads or leman russ loitering at the back lines of the enemy army then actually shoving any of my infantry into them will have the desired effect. There's always Lysander if somebody shows up with a monolith.

On the subject of hammer units, I don't really have them and I don't really want them. I've gone for units that have a lot of potential to take apart an enemy unit but mostly keep the cost down. I'm not actually a convert to assault termies. My GKs are designed to be able to charge an enemy unit, kill it, then either hold the objective or leave. I'm thinking about whether they should have psycannons instead of incinerators, which would give me the option of having them hang back and shoot sometimes. The tactical squad may well combat squad, and has a high chance of leaving 5 guys inside a crusader for the whole game if I need to grab an objective.

My army is actually about the land raiders themselves, not about using them to deliver such and such death-bomb unit. I'm interested in LRs as combat vehicles in their own right rather than transports. The plan is that they actually do a lot of the fighting, with infantry deploying when they get an opportunity or when needed to do so, rather than intending to charge at the enemy. Suicidal charging is better done by something cheaper and faster, like say a scout squad in a storm.

If nothing else, it should be a quick army to deploy! I'm fed up of having to end games early. I'll often just put down 4 models.


----------



## sooch

Someguy said:


> I'm actually relatively happy with the amount of AT I'm bringing in my list. Hard to say without trying it, but 3 multi-meltas is not everything I can do. Actually, if somebody is using a lot of vehicles then they tend to either be numerous light things, which I have many ways of stopping, or eldar, in which case you may as well not bother. If there are things like hammerheads or leman russ loitering at the back lines of the enemy army then actually shoving any of my infantry into them will have the desired effect. There's always Lysander if somebody shows up with a monolith.
> 
> On the subject of hammer units, I don't really have them and I don't really want them. I've gone for units that have a lot of potential to take apart an enemy unit but mostly keep the cost down. I'm not actually a convert to assault termies. My GKs are designed to be able to charge an enemy unit, kill it, then either hold the objective or leave. I'm thinking about whether they should have psycannons instead of incinerators, which would give me the option of having them hang back and shoot sometimes. The tactical squad may well combat squad, and has a high chance of leaving 5 guys inside a crusader for the whole game if I need to grab an objective.
> 
> My army is actually about the land raiders themselves, not about using them to deliver such and such death-bomb unit. I'm interested in LRs as combat vehicles in their own right rather than transports. The plan is that they actually do a lot of the fighting, with infantry deploying when they get an opportunity or when needed to do so, rather than intending to charge at the enemy. Suicidal charging is better done by something cheaper and faster, like say a scout squad in a storm.
> 
> If nothing else, it should be a quick army to deploy! I'm fed up of having to end games early. I'll often just put down 4 models.


To each his own then 

You may want to consider taking a regular las raider if you're not planning on doing much balls out running at the enemy.


----------



## fett14622

Someguy said:


> I'm actually relatively happy with the amount of AT I'm bringing in my list. Hard to say without trying it, but 3 multi-meltas is not everything I can do. Actually, if somebody is using a lot of vehicles then they tend to either be numerous light things, which I have many ways of stopping, or eldar, in which case you may as well not bother. If there are things like hammerheads or leman russ loitering at the back lines of the enemy army then actually shoving any of my infantry into them will have the desired effect. There's always Lysander if somebody shows up with a monolith.
> 
> On the subject of hammer units, I don't really have them and I don't really want them. I've gone for units that have a lot of potential to take apart an enemy unit but mostly keep the cost down. I'm not actually a convert to assault termies. My GKs are designed to be able to charge an enemy unit, kill it, then either hold the objective or leave. I'm thinking about whether they should have psycannons instead of incinerators, which would give me the option of having them hang back and shoot sometimes. The tactical squad may well combat squad, and has a high chance of leaving 5 guys inside a crusader for the whole game if I need to grab an objective.
> 
> My army is actually about the land raiders themselves, not about using them to deliver such and such death-bomb unit. I'm interested in LRs as combat vehicles in their own right rather than transports. The plan is that they actually do a lot of the fighting, with infantry deploying when they get an opportunity or when needed to do so, rather than intending to charge at the enemy. Suicidal charging is better done by something cheaper and faster, like say a scout squad in a storm.
> 
> If nothing else, it should be a quick army to deploy! I'm fed up of having to end games early. I'll often just put down 4 models.


It you are looking at the Land Raider as combat vehicles shouldn't there be a normal LR. It will give you antitank with the lascannons. Just a thought on my part.

But none the less 3 LRs very strong. :victory:


----------



## Someguy

Well first up, I'm not going to accept much credit for thinking of taking 3 land raiders. It's neither an original idea, nor a particularly clever one. "Me like this, me take many of this!" In spite of this, it may be effective.

I thought about taking a normal land raider but they don't convince me at all to be honest. Firstly, lascannons aren't all that good for AT. Secondly they pack way less total firepower than crusaders or redeemers and they are less good at firing it all. I played against a normal LR with a termie assault squad inside recently and it hung around my deployment zone for most of the game, basically killing nothing (as I had no vehicles and only fearless infantry in cover). A crusader or redeemer would have caused carnage.

I like how crusaders can fire all their guns after moving 6", and split the anti infantry stuff from the multi-melta. I like how the redeemer can turn a squad of marines in cover into ash. Both of these variants benefit from being close to the enemy, which they often will be.

Quick moddish point: quoting whole messages in replies is unnecessary. It isn't bad exactly, it just achieves nothing much and clogs up the page with stuff people have already read. The quote tool is best used when you are replying to a post from some time ago, and it isn't clear who you are replying to, or when you want to pick a specific point somebody made.


----------



## Lord Cornilius

I agree with your Land Raider assessment. Crusaders are by far the better variant. Redeemers are great against MEQ, but you can't beat the Crusader in an all-comers type list.

Also, you cannot replace the Justicar's storm bolter with a bolt pistol. There is a rule in the wargear section which states the Justicar is forbidden to replace his standard armament.

As far as the list goes, I'm personally not a huge fan of Tri-Raider lists, but I think your list is at least well thought out.


----------



## sooch

I tried out the redeemer a couple of times...overall disappointing. Takes far too long to get into effective range, and if you get immobilized outside of flamer range by a lucky lascannon, you are nearly worthless. At least with a crusader you can still fire bolters. I'm sticking with 2x crusaders.


----------



## MaidenManiac

sooch said:


> 1750 - Making Marines Work v6.5 - Space Marines
> 
> HQ
> 
> Vulkan He'stan @ 190pts
> 
> Troops
> 
> 5 Scouts [1x Power Weapon, 4x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols, 1x Meltabombs] @ 95pts
> 
> 5 Scouts [1x Power Weapon, 3x Combat Blades, 5x Bolt Pistols, 1x Meltabombs] @ 95pts


Uhm so 2x5 scoring units? Even if you have 2 speeders to run around in they wont live to tell the tale and then = game over:laugh:
Im assuming that the Sternguard heavy list _must_ have Kantor as HQ to actually have enough scoring units, right?


----------



## Lord Reevan

I really like your list someguy. I disagree with it having little anti tank as you have a lot of vehicle mounted multimeltas and 3 twin linked assault cannons which can still rape vehicles through rending. I've begun running 2 in my BA lists and they are really effective against every type of unit. with the sister's fire that unit with crusader will wipe any objective easily with rapid fire and the Grey knights will do a similar result just in both assault and shooting. 

Which squad is Lysander going with and does his bolter drill rule work on allies too?


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> Which squad is Lysander going with and does his bolter drill rule work on allies too?


It works on any squad that he joins.


----------



## Lord Reevan

ah cool.... that would make the grey knights absolutely crazy then, rerolling bolters then having lysander clean up after them...


----------



## sooch

MaidenManiac said:


> Uhm so 2x5 scoring units? Even if you have 2 speeders to run around in they wont live to tell the tale and then = game over:laugh:
> Im assuming that the Sternguard heavy list _must_ have Kantor as HQ to actually have enough scoring units, right?


:nono:

Don't knock it 'till you've seen it played. I haven't lost a seize ground mission yet (all have been 4 or 5 objectives, oddly enough) with this list.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> ah cool.... that would make the grey knights absolutely crazy then, rerolling bolters then having lysander clean up after them...


Sure does, yep. Just hope to the Emperor that nobody tries to stick Lysander in a unit of HB Devastators.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I'd like to see him hold a vulkan mega bolter just to scare people...

Has anyone tried putting him into a squad of normal terminators to either deepstrike or move up in a crusader? that would make one really heavy hitting unit with a lot of re-rolling shots going in before hand....


----------



## Someguy

Katie Drake said:


> Sure does, yep. Just hope to the Emperor that nobody tries to stick Lysander in a unit of HB Devastators.


Or, hope even more that they don't have two units of HB devastators.

To be honest, I view Lysander's reroll bolters thing as a bit of fun. I mean sure, fine, but for his price I could get another squad of GKs. He isn't there for the storm bolter reroll, he's there for the big hammer, for eternal warrior and a 3+ invulnerable. Stuff like that.

In terms of what squad he will be with I actually tend to think of him acting alone a lot. He's going to catch a ride with somebody, but I can see him getting out alone so he can charge something big and scary, possibly while his squad get out the other side of the tank and charge something different.

I rate lysander because he's good at doing the things the rest of my army isn't so great at. He breaks vehicles, MCs, nob bikers and stuff like that. On the other hand, he's pretty useless against horde.

Nothing in my army is fixed yet though, including him. He costs a lot and there could be good reasons for taking other stuff instead.

Arguably, Pedro is a better combo with the GKs. +1 attack for those guys would be huge. The same goes for assault termies. I think that Pedro would definitely be the better choice for someone going for a straight up the centre charge type army.


----------



## sooch

Yeah with lysander and the sternguard I often find him hopping out of the crusader on the other side from the sternguard, leaving the unit, and charging and tying something up that would otherwise be a threat to my combi melta unit of death. He often does a pretty good job of beating it down, too.


----------



## Devinstater

One common item we started discussing at the beginning of this thread was that taking minimum troops and maximizing actual threatening models may be a go-to list style for marines.

Sooch has had a lot of success with this. The interesting thing is that it a tactic very different from the lists that failed to produce at GT. Flat out killing the enemy may be a viable tactic we should explore more.


----------



## dwarflord17404

*Not fair to marines*

I feel that in every game system ther has to be a middle and this is space marines sure they arn't the best at shooting or assault but they are by far one of the more forgiving armies to play with. That being said I think marines can be competive again. I think boots on the ground is a soild list(4 tact squads 2 devastors capt sicarius some assult marines jump chaplin , some sniper scouts, 2 dreadnaughts). I think the biggest issue is that marine generals have become static in their lists which makes them easy to counter. We need to come up with something they don't see coming or hard to deal with.


----------



## sooch

New 2k list for you guys to peruse:

HQ:
Vulkan He’stan 190

5 Tactical Marines 165
Combi-Melta
TL Heavy Flamer Razorback

5 Tactical Marines 165
Combi-Melta
TL Heavy Flamer Razorback

5 Tactical Marines 165
Combi-Melta
TL Heavy Flamer Razorback

5 Tactical Marines 165
Combi-Melta
TL Heavy Flamer Razorback

2x Speeder Squadron 140
Multimeltas
Heavy Flamers

2x Speeder Squadron 140
Multimeltas
Heavy Flamers

2x Speeder Squadron 140
Multimeltas
Heavy Flamers

5 Assault Terminators 200
Thunder Hammers
Storm Shields

5 Assault Terminators 200
Thunder Hammers
Storm Shields

Land Raider Crusader 260
Multimelta

Land Raider Crusader 260
Multimelta

Total 2000

Lots of mech, lots of flamers, lots of melta. Mastercrafted thunder hammers for those armies that need the fight brought to them, in the form of cc death (wraithguard/wraithlord army comes to mind).


----------



## Vashtek

I think the 2k list is interesting but I'd like to see a 1500 or 1750 point version. Have you playtested it? I take it that you have been having some success with your heavy flamers.

I'm not sure that I like heavy flamers on razorbacks as they can only move 6" and fire the thing. They are also damn expensive and you can almost buy a lascannon/twin plasma option for the points which seems better. However I can see how they might work moving behind the land raiders. 

Which list do your prefer, this or your sternguard heavy list?

I recently had an epiphany about non-storm landspeeders. They are bad. Why? They have AV10 and are very difficult to put in cover meaning virtually any long range shooting will reliably stop them from working. I suppose the difference between your melta/hflamer and my typhoon/hbolter is that you might actually go 18" on the first turn so you can get the 4+save. Also your landspeeders get to hide behind land raiders whilst I haven't got round to buying one yet. Still seems alot of points for a fragile unit that has to be close to work and gives away KPs.

It's a shame that attack bikes cant be given heavy flamers.


----------



## spike12225

i got a 1250 list for ravens

shrike

10 man assault sq PF flamer plas pistol jump packs

10 man assault sq PF flamer plas pistol jump packs

10 man assault sq PF flamer x2 drop pod death wind launcher

tact sq ML melta gun rhino

scout sq 6 man sniper rifles x5 camo cloaks 

shrike and and two assault squads get close DP comes in torches heavy threat next turn supports first two squads if needed or assaults new threat while scouts infiltrate near one objective.

tact combat squads ML sq hold own objective melta sq in rhino claim other objective while assault squads clear objectives and threats.

using it against eldar this week end gaurd and tau die its mashes them only hard part is nids and orks but i'm thinking i will just multiple assault with both squads


----------



## englanda

Has anybody tried a more aggressive SM list?

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Shrike
195

Assault Squad, +5 Marines
2 Power Fists, 2 Flamers
260

Land Raider Redeemer
Extra Armor, MM
265

Land Raider Crusader
MM
260

Assault Terminators
5 TH/SS
200

Tactical Squad, +5 Marines
Meltagun, ML, Power Fist
205

That comes to 1385, missing a troop choice. Just wanted to throw a potential template down to play with. It looks a tad weak to me (assault marines mainly, against some of the current stuff), but I think an infiltrating fleet assault unit could be very interesting. Could even use terminators if the terrain permits you to put them 12" away. Drop pod Ironclads would probably work well. 

Anyway, just my spin on a more aggressive list. Perhaps one of the more experienced commanders could run with this and come up with something better?


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> I think the 2k list is interesting but I'd like to see a 1500 or 1750 point version. Have you playtested it? I take it that you have been having some success with your heavy flamers.
> 
> I'm not sure that I like heavy flamers on razorbacks as they can only move 6" and fire the thing. They are also damn expensive and you can almost buy a lascannon/twin plasma option for the points which seems better. However I can see how they might work moving behind the land raiders.
> 
> Which list do your prefer, this or your sternguard heavy list?
> 
> I recently had an epiphany about non-storm landspeeders. They are bad. Why? They have AV10 and are very difficult to put in cover meaning virtually any long range shooting will reliably stop them from working. I suppose the difference between your melta/hflamer and my typhoon/hbolter is that you might actually go 18" on the first turn so you can get the 4+save. Also your landspeeders get to hide behind land raiders whilst I haven't got round to buying one yet. Still seems alot of points for a fragile unit that has to be close to work and gives away KPs.
> 
> It's a shame that attack bikes cant be given heavy flamers.


I've only played one game with it so far, and it cleaned house. The melta/flamer speeders are great in my opinion. You can keep them out of rapid fire bolter/S4 weapon range pretty easily, and if you're only taking lascannon potshots, then your 3+ cover should usually take care of it. They are great for doing things like flanking armor, bumrushing land raiders/vindicators and such. I use them to pop enemy transports so that my wall of flamers and crusaders can just march up and kill them easily. Since the meltas are twin linked, I'm pretty much nearly guaranteed a good damage result if the 2 speeders are within 12". Sacrificing a 140pt unit to not only take out a land raider but render the dangerous occupants transport-less, is definitely worth it IMO.

I personally think that 2k points is too much. You can do too much crazy shit at that points level. I'm not sure which list I prefer, the sternguard heavy one or this one. On one hand, I really dig the speeders with MM/HF, and on the other hand I like having storms for stealing objectives from people.

@spike: You have no anti-armor. If your meltagunner's rhino gets disabled, your opponent will be able to just sit in his falcons/fire prisms/hellhounds/raiders and plink away at your assault squads.

@englanda: You can't put 2 powerfists in an assault squad. I'm not a big fan of shrike lists, because sure you might get off the first turn charge but if your opponent knows what he or she is doing, they'll see shrike and then just turtle. You'll kill one or two units depending on how good your multiassault goes, but after that you're facing the wrath of the rest of the entire army. Not to mention that you can't take meltaguns on assault marines, so if your opponent is running mech the most you'll do is pop a transport. Not a fan of shrike.

HQ:
Vulkan He’stan 190

10 Tactical Marines 220
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Combi-melta
Razorback (TL HB)

10 Tactical Marines 220
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Combi-melta
Razorback (TL HB)

10 Tactical Marines 220
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Combi-melta
Razorback (TL HB)

2x Land Speeder Squadron 140
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer

2x Land Speeder Squadron 140
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer

2x Land Speeder Squadron 140
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer

5 Assault Terminators 200
Thunder Hammers
Storm Shields

Land Raider Crusader 275
Multimelta
Extra Armor

Total 1745

Meh. What do you think? It looks really balanced to me actually lol.


----------



## englanda

sooch said:


> @englanda: You can't put 2 powerfists in an assault squad. I'm not a big fan of shrike lists, because sure you might get off the first turn charge but if your opponent knows what he or she is doing, they'll see shrike and then just turtle. You'll kill one or two units depending on how good your multiassault goes, but after that you're facing the wrath of the rest of the entire army. Not to mention that you can't take meltaguns on assault marines, so if your opponent is running mech the most you'll do is pop a transport. Not a fan of shrike.


The sergeant can take two. At least to my knowledge.. His entry says may replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with a power fist, replacing his bolt pistol with a power fist and replacing his chainsword with another power fist. Or have I just completely miss-read the entire codex? :shok:


----------



## sooch

englanda said:


> The sergeant can take two. At least to my knowledge.. His entry says may replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with a power fist, replacing his bolt pistol with a power fist and replacing his chainsword with another power fist. Or have I just completely miss-read the entire codex? :shok:


Yeah you could do that. But then you must realize you're paying 25pts for 1 powerfist attack. Not worth it.


----------



## spike12225

@ sooch no anti armour i have an infiltrating power fist assault squad with shrike if deployed right i can assault a unit and tank and theres always plas pistol only prob would be land raider but rarely see one at this point level 

and with fleet can move and assault 24'' a turn so falcon can run but can't shoot


----------



## sooch

If a powerfist and a meltagun and a plasma pistol satisfy your need for antitank, more power to you. I just personally would feel uncomfortable putting all my faith in melee antitank.


----------



## MaidenManiac

If i was to ponder a Shrike list it would be something like this. Assault Marines with fleet should make Stormaboys look weak compared 

Shrike
2x5 Assault Termies
2x10 Assault Marines
2x5+ SniperScouts(add more with remains of points)
2xDreads in pods

Basically leave the snipers to hold own objectives and then let the rest rush. Im not sure if its worth tossing Shrike up front with one unit all alone. It will be shot to bits very fast, it feels better to come in a huge wave. It does look quite thin tho on 1500:no:

Or maybe this
Shrike
3x10 Assault Marines
2x5+SniperScouts
5 Assault Terminators in Pod
2 Dreads in Pods

Sure the 2 units coming down wave one will face some shooting, but if they shoot the whole army on them the 30 jumping maniacs will be unmolested when they hit the lines:good:

This actually looks like trying to play BA but with the normal SM list, BA's with fleet :laugh:


----------



## Devinstater

Sooch,

I just can't help but that that I would rather have another Land Raider Crusader instead of all those land speeder squads. I prefer your original Pedro list I think. 

Against tough infantry or MC's I just don't see the speeders doing enough to force people off point and to clear the objective for the tactical squads. The Assault Terminators can only kill so many squads in a game.


----------



## Ferik

Anouther combo is Shrike with a Thunderhammer Assault Terminator squad.

Which can be scary in its own right especially when they infiltrate.

Though in all honesty the best characters to use it seems are Pedro, Lysander and Vulkan.

Vulkan and Lysander I believe are the best for working together especially with all the re-rolls and yes Lysander is better used in an assault unit but he also works well as a deterrant in the shooting units he is part of.

Vulkans Melta re-rolls I think is his most useful ability aside from the equipment he comes with.

The Master Crafted Hammers is all right, though myself I would use a Chaplin so they can re-roll all their to hit rolls which should make sure what you assault dies (no kill like overkill right?)

In the end though it really comes down to personal prefrance, play style and what you end up playing against at your local club.

Well I kind of feel like I'm going nowheres with this so I'll stop here.

Cheers.


----------



## Djokovic

My only worry about that list is that the minimum scout squads could be easily cleared off of objectives. A hellhound or heavy flamer could do the job in one turn, possibly, and basically every list includes these weapons because there are so many cheesy new ork players out there these days.


----------



## spike12225

yes there all very acceptabe lists but this is only 1250pts 

but i am going fluffy mobile force i'm not one to mix characters but this lists works good just have to be prepared to get them into the mix.

remember there is 30 of them and you hit on rear armour which makes it more effective then fourth ed


----------



## englanda

How does this look:

1750
Vulkan 190
5 Ass Termies TH/SS 200
Redeemer, MM, EA 265
10 Sternguard, 5 combi-meltas, 2 combi-flamers, 2 heavy flamer, Razorback 345
Crusader, MM 260
Tac marines, 5 guys, PF, Flamer, ML, combi-melta, Razorback 245
Tac marines, 5 guys, PF, Flamer, ML, combi-melta, Razorback 245

Different spin on sooch's list. Doesn't have the Land speeders, but I think the AT was already over the top. Instead it can field 2-4 scoring units however they are needed. The Stern's Razorback can be fielded empty and then a combat squad can board it to have 3 armored scoring units.

Sooch's list may is probably better, but this may sit better with the people like me who are afraid to only take 2 5 man scoring units.


----------



## Pauly55

yeah but...your list has two 5 man scoring units...unless of course vulkan makes assault termies scoring. Either that or I'm drunk.


----------



## sooch

He's got 2 10 man tac squads. He just wrote it out silly and only included the 5 man upgrade to the basic 5 man squad.


----------



## Pauly55

well, that clears that up.


----------



## englanda

sooch said:


> He's got 2 10 man tac squads. He just wrote it out silly and only included the 5 man upgrade to the basic 5 man squad.


Yeah, guess the +sign went missing somewhere between my computer and the submit button, sorry.

Anyway, how does it look?


----------



## Lord Reevan

I've been working on a few lists recently, messing with both C:SM and the BA codex. Is this thread more for C:SM or any marines codex? I'm thinking about posting some up....


----------



## Someguy

Codex marines please.

Lists should normally go in the army lists section. This thread is so we can have a look at codex marines from the ground up.


----------



## Sieg

what are your overall thoughts on sternguard? They look pretty solid on paper but i havent gotten to use them yet.

Aslo, i think you basic SM army needs 3 tac squads of 8-10 men. Any less then that and you can find yourself in some serious trouble in the late game.


----------



## bl0203

*Running and Gunning!!!*

What do you guys think of a Biker Hybrid Army? Between the added mobility, relentless and toughness I think it would be very helpful with many of our weaknesses. Run and gun the assault orietned armies and turbo boost and outflank the shooty armies. Additionaly we can get two special weapons and a mobile heavy weapon. The MM Bike really shines. For example;

*Headquarters*

Khan w/bike command squad, Champion, x2 Flamers, Apoth

*Troops*

6 Bikers, PW, Melta x2, MM A Bike

6 bikers, PW, Plasma x2, MM A Bike

5 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks (hunker down and hold home objectives)

5 Scouts w/Shotguns and Sergeant with PW and Combi Flamer(outflank in LS Storm or scout for first turn charge)

*Fast Attack*

Storm w/Heavy Flamer (outflank)

MM A Bike x2 (outflank)

*Elites*

5x Assault Termies w/TT SS combo in Redeemer w/MM (outflank)

Thats about 1750 pts, pending on who your fighting and whether you go first would really help determine your deployment fashion (outflanking/reserves). Maybe to build up to Ardboys you could throw in Tigurous to re-roll those reserve rolls and get a psychic hood along w/more troops and some Sternguard. Just some thoughts. Have a good day :victory:


----------



## sooch

I like the full bike army rather than the half bike army to be honest. Bikers should have 2x flamers, not plasmas or meltas (that's what the a bikes are for). Drop the redeemer/termies, and beef up that command squad. Here's a biker list for all interested:

HQ:
Khan 205pts
-Moondrakkan

5 Command Squad 345pts
-Apothecary: Bike
-Vet 1: Bike, Storm Shield, Lightning Claw
-Vet 2: Bike, Storm Shield, Lightning Claw
-Vet 3: Bike, Storm Shield, Powerfist
-Vet 4: Bike, Storm Shield, Powerfist

Troops:
8 Space Marine Bikes 275pts
-Multimelta Attack Bike
-Flamer x2

8 Space Marine Bikes 275pts
-Multimelta Attack Bike
-Flamer x2

8 Space Marine Bikes 275pts
-Multimelta Attack Bike
-Flamer x2

8 Space Marine Bikes 275pts
-Multimelta Attack Bike
-Flamer x2

Fast:
Attack Bike 50pts
-Multimelta

Attack Bike 50pts
-Multimelta

Total 1750


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## bl0203

Like the list, although I just don't like spending that many points on the command squad. I was debating the storm shields they're a great idea it just gets exspensive. I thought the termies would be nice to show up mid game in the redeemer to really clean house and keep my enemy guessing. 

Bikers with flamers are great but moving and shooting a plasma gun 24" or rapid firing a plasma gun and still being able to assault is nice. I would pair the flamers with HB A Bikes. Thanks for the feed back...


----------



## sooch

Well, in your previous list you were spending 450pts on the LR/termi combo, so really it's not a huge deal. It's a poor man's nob biker squad (actually it would probably kill nob bikers on the charge, with I5 S5 lightning claws and khan having a chance of instant killing a biker with his special weapon).


----------



## Someguy

This command squad, or a termie assault squad with TH/SS should win a combat with nob bikers. The nobs' 2 wounds really counts against them here as each power fist hit counts as 2 wounds inflicted for combat resolution as it instant kills a guy. The bikes also get to chase after the nobs. However, don't expect to have all that many bikers left after you fight.

You can also give command squad guys a cc wep, storm shield and flamer, and that's cool.

I would probably give some bikers plasma guns and not have the two attack bikes on their own. Plasma guns are good, and are useful.


----------



## sooch

Bike armies need horde control more than anything, that's why the flamers are there. They're good for softening up a mob before a charge.


----------



## bl0203

The bike can utilize their TL Bolters at range to draw hodre armies in for the counter charge. If you can get a round or two of shooting against a unit of Orc boys and go in for the charge you'll be looking okay. This is really nice if you have at least one unit of bikes with flamers. You'll have the initiative as well as they will only wound you on a six save that freakin' Power Claw of course. Although its better then getting charged by them. 

I like the idea of the bikes because we can take advantage of the wound alocation and float a PLasma Wound on the attack bike. The special weapons really shine on bikes, mobile melta, move and shoot plasma and the flamer rush. Pair this with the right Heavy weapon and you got a pretty shooty unit. 

The thing that scares me most about bikes is difficult terrain, numbers and the price of the units. Another thought was a bike captain with Hellfire rounds, SS and Relic Blase. Not to bad but coming from BA the FC (Khan) really makes the LC/PW a very useful option. 

As for the Nob Bikers their just flat out scary, they can just do everything our command squad can do but better IMO. Additionally they can catch our bikes!!! Some units just need to be shot.

EDIT; Just an after thought, what do you guys think of tank shocking units with the Redeemer? Even fearless ones, guess the proper range so the unit is bunched up on the side next to the flame cannons and let them rip. Maybe just hit the edge of a large hodre so they move to the flank all bunched up. 

I was also toying with the idea of using the LS Storm with heavy flamer w/a unit of scouts with Shotguns/PW/Combi Flamer rushing a shooty unit. Two flame templates, and four shotguns followed by the charge should really tie up those heavy weapons. I'm thinking Tau units, Lootas, small devies squads, or shooty Eldar units, and so on and so forth. Its kind of a one trick pony but for 160pts its not bad. But thats why were here to come up with some interesting combos. Or using Khan and Command Squad to hit a tarpit unit then hit/run after the enemy assault phase for some shooting and a follow up charge with the scouts. I figure it will tie up a shooty unit, and draw the attention of other units. Thoughts???


----------



## Chemspock

*Sternguard Combi weapons*

I've been following the discussion and have a question. Are the various combi- weapons all that useful, since you can only use the non-boltgun function once per game? Functionally, that seems to be a difficult thing to keep track of unless all the special functions are shot on the same turn.


----------



## Someguy

There can be admin issues there it's true. You may want to mark guys who have fired their combi weps in some way.

As for whether they are good or not, yes I think they are. There are a lot of things in their favour.

Firstly, you don't actually get to fire a normal flamer all that often anyway. You have to get into position, find a target, and after that you often end up in cc and/or dead - or just run out of targets. The comparison with a flamer you only get to fire once and a combi-flamer you can only fire once is kind of moot.

Essentially, after you have fired your combi weps you aren't as good as you were before but you are still better off than the other guy, who is dead. Adding a second flamer with a combi wep means that you kill a lot more stuff on the turn you get out of your rhino, meaning you don't take so much damage in return. The ability to concentrate damage and kill things quickly counts for a lot.


----------



## Chemspock

Thanks for the info!

Sounds like I may need to try the Sternguard squad - Pedro Cantor combo once I build up my actual available models (just starting and don't have unlimited funds).


----------



## Ferik

Also if you really want your combi-flamer or melta to count you can use vulkan as well and get the twin linked weapons working for you.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Personally the only combi weapons I use are combi flamers as they are auto hit. The other 2 I dislike as they have a chance of failing and thats points down the shitter. same as HKs. paying points for something that has a 1/3 chance of not hitting, nevermind wounding doesn't appeal to me. my sternguard which would be around 8 men would have 4 combi-flamers, a meltagun and a powerfist because if you do need to take out some big thing close enough for a meltagun it'd be better to have a few extra attacks with the fist...


----------



## sooch

Not taking weapons because they have a chance of failing is a bad reasoning. Every weapon has a 1/3 chance of failing, including your single meltagun, and that's why you take multiple of said weapon, or take Vulkan. What happens when you need to open a raider and you only have one shot with your meltagun to do it? Perhaps it might be better to consider taking 3 or 4 combi-meltas so that you can guarantee a vehicle kill at close range.


----------



## Lord Reevan

taking several of them is better. my personal experience with special weapons is that I've used them more than once in a game so taking the full weapon would be better for me. Could be just me though. I suppose As I haven't used sternguard much yet I wouldn't know much about their best set up. 

Would any of you keep them pure combi weapons or have a bit of CC added in to help just in case? and what size and transport would be best?


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

imho, transport size always depends on squad size (derp), And while the extra guns of a razorback are nice, it also forces you to go with a 5 or 6 man squad/CS... which can realy hurt against Orks and Nids... when you need volume of fire to ensure you dont end up in a CC initiated by the horde you just shot. Also, A Librarian with Gate is a pretty good transport, as you get more range than most transports (at least those available to SM).

As for Sternguard, I dont feel inclined to add many CC weapons to my shooty unit, as that costs extra for something I dont want them doing... and makes me feel inclined to give them SB's... losing all of that nice special ammo. On the flip side, straight Combi-weps is an expensive way to go, though if you evenly mix all 3 types of combi-wep amongst the squad it may make sense (especially if you want to CS them). Just my 2 cents tho...


----------



## Salvor

I've been following this thread and thought it was about time I posted the list i've been using (plus my first post on here), I've had a fair amount of success with this notching up 11 wins and 1 draw, this has been against Ork's, Tau, Nid's and Eldar. Before I pat myself on the back too much I should probably state that this has been against my step son and his friends who are 10. So not exactly up tier GT power gamers.

*Headquarters*

Pedro Kantor 175

Master of the Forge, Bike, Conversion Beam 155

*Elites*

Sternguard x 10, 3 x Combi-Melta, 2 x Heavy Flamer 285
Sternguard x 10, 2 x Combi-Melta, 2 x Plasma Cannon 250
Sternguard x 5, 2 x Las Cannon 155

*Troops*

Scout Squad x 5, Sniper rifles 75
Scout Squad x 5, Sniper rifles 75

*Transport*

Rhino 35
Razorback 40

*Fast Attack*

Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer 70

*Heavy Support*

Dreadnought, Twin linked Las Cannon 135
Dreadnought, Plasma Cannon 115
Whirlwind 85

*1750 Pts*

I've found that the standard troops choices just aren't adequate and with the inclusion of Pedro allows the pricer but most versatile Sternguard to become scoring negating the need for tactical squads.

Using the scouts for troops allocation is a cheap option and they have managed too pay back there cost especially with the master of the forge being able to add to the cover save of the objective I leave them holding.

The master of the forge is more to allow the inclusion of dreadnoughts as for his own usefullness, but saying that being able to bike around with the added toughness from this and use his conversion beam to hit biker mobs and tanks and be able too move quick enough too achieve this thansk again to the bike, he can become slightly on his own though.

The land speeders give anti hoard and anti tank with there layout and contest objective towards the end.

Dreadnoughts give some long range anti tank and anti heavy infantry/light vehicle with the plasma cannon, plus no gets hot. Also giving me a counter attack option when things get in close if not a quick moving one though.

The sternguard I've found are a excellent unit, with the different ammo types can take on most things and I usually use squad one with the heavy flamers with pedro for aggressive moves and squad two to back them up ewith the plasma, sit squad three at the back and try to pop armour and MC's.
Finally the whirlwind to hit horde's and try to blast enemy units off there objectives there holding, plus with the orbital bombardment from Kantor at the start of the game if I'm very luck do some fair damageor at eh least leave my oppenent having to amke lots of dice rolls which will hopefully make them more cautious.

The only problem with this list is really lack of mobility and counter attacking CC, I have been lucky that I have managed to filter my oppenets where I can deal with this though, but like I said not GT power gamers.

Please pick this apart as any criticism would be appreciated from more seasoned players.

Cheers


----------



## Sieg

i really like that list. Looks like it would give a lot of people a run for their money.


----------



## Mentor_Legion

Be watching this thread, Where I get hammered is my dice rolls you fail you fail. Got slaughted by eldar, this guy couldn't miss and made all saves. But here is one of my lists.

Vulkan

1x Troop Flamer, Pod
1x Troop melta gun, Pod-locator 

Elite

Dreadnought MM Pod-locator-deathwind
Dreadnought Assualt C. Pod-deathwind
Dreadnought LC Pod-deathwind

Heavy

LR Crusader w/ MM or Standard
Vindicator w/Siege shield
Whrilwind
1500 pts give or take

Of course this dosent work with 'nids towell. Have had good outins' VS Orks, IG, Tau, record is 6w-1L w/ the loss just to the eldar. With a 1750-2500 I use AA squads, take out a Dread for Termis with Vulkan, scrap the whilwind for another Vindi.
Most of the Games were Obj. based.


----------



## sooch

Why take vulkan? You benefit from twin linking 2 weapons, give or take. Not really worth paying 190pts imo.

We're not looking for lists that "dont work against some armies too well", we're looking for lists that will do well against everything.


----------



## SpacedGhost

I recently returned to 40k after a two edition hiatus. In second and third edition I recall SM being the measuring stick by which other armies gauged their worth. Returning to the game in Fifth edition to find the once great Bar-Setters bottoming out in GTs is a sad day indeed. I'm new to the forums so it took me a while to wade through the near 40 pages of posts before throwing my own input into the mix. Before I do I'd just like to say there is some great information in this thread, very helpful tips for one just returning to the game. Granted I intend on donning my crimson power armor again, and giving into my rage, black rage, but playing BA it's good to know how my SM cousins are doing. Their dismal performance in spite of new tricks and troops means the bar is that much higher for my beloved BA (compared to when I quit playing they learned some new tricks themselves too though). My ego and history aside I'd like to thank all contributors for their input thus far... again it's been a very informative read.

Rant over, beginning my inquiry.

Has anyone tested the Thunderfire Cannon out in competitive (or casual for that matter) play? Allow me to first clarify I'm not really a big fan of large immobile guns, but this thing raised my brow. It's got a Techmarine (and his potentially attached slaves--servitors) and his tricks, three different shots for three different situations, option of being drop podded (if that's your bag), and a great range.

I'm not saying the thing is multipurpose to an extreme, but for its cost it seems it can dish out a great deal of punishment and inconvenience to a range of units/armies. It's true it definately rocks out on swarms probably above all, but Str 6, and 4 blast templates can make a spectrum of troops not happy. Not to mention ignoring cover, and my favorite... slowing enemy vehicles (Nob Bikers and Skimmers included).

To annotate the advantages that stood out to me:

Cheap
Long Range
Multiple Shots for Multiple Situations
Can be drop podded (how this works conceptually is beyond me but it's on page 142 in black and white so I'll believe it)
The Techmarine w/ the cannon allows for a unit of servitors (which I don't particularly care for as they get expensive if you want to make them useful which takes away point number 1... "cheap")
Good Str... bleh AP... but multiple shots and blast templates (If you pump enough shots into something, something is bound to get hurt.)

I'm not trying to sell everyone on the cannon despite all this. I'm actually just curious to know how others rate it. It may be a useful tool given the right build of an army. On paper it seems like it could be great support for a good fire line. I'd like to see this thing backing up sternguard as they blast things in cover.

Again, Thanks Everyone for the great insight, and goodluck.


----------



## Vashtek

Problem with thunderfire cannon= AV10. Sure it can sit in 3+ cover but that doesn't stop it being very easy to kill.

Also:- what it is actually good against? Static or slow infantry. There aren't that many good armies like this. Also, you need stuff to go forward and capture objectives. Gunlines don't work any more.

Vindicators cost 15 points more and are substantially more survivable, threatening and versatile. You could even spend 15 points less and get a predator destructor with h bolter sponsons which, while static, gives you plenty of dice to throw at your opposition.


----------



## dopey82

here is a list Ive been playing well with.

pedro kantor

master of the forge
storm bolter, power axe

stern guard 10 man
serg combi-melta, power fist
2 melta guns
drop pod
deathwind launcher
locator beacon

sternguard 10 man (pedro rides with)
serg with power weapon
two heavy flamers
drop pod
deathwind launcher

sternguard 10 man
serg combi-melta. power fist
one melta gun 
razorback
twin-linked lascannon
extra armour

tactical squad 5 man (master for the forge rides with)
serg with bolt pistol, power weapon
razorback
twin-linked heavy bolter
extra armour

scout 6man
telion, heavy bolter, 4 snipers.

dreadnought
twin-lascannon
missle launcher
extra armour

dreadnougt
multi-melta
extra armour
drop pod
locater beacon

2000 points
Ive played all types of armys and seem to handle them well


----------



## sooch

Vashtek said:


> Problem with thunderfire cannon= AV10. Sure it can sit in 3+ cover but that doesn't stop it being very easy to kill.
> 
> Also:- what it is actually good against? Static or slow infantry. There aren't that many good armies like this. Also, you need stuff to go forward and capture objectives. Gunlines don't work any more.
> 
> Vindicators cost 15 points more and are substantially more survivable, threatening and versatile. You could even spend 15 points less and get a predator destructor with h bolter sponsons which, while static, gives you plenty of dice to throw at your opposition.


Gotta make sure you have plenty of other stuff to throw at your opponent and distract him from the thunderfires. People will likely fire at a crusader full of terminators over a thunderfire. Mess with people's priorities and the thunderfires will get to dish out the pain.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I agree with sooch. Often enough players will fire at the faster moving, advancing units more than static units. if they're advancing they're advancing for a reason so it'd be best to stop them, even if they're rhino tac squads, small assault squads, anything. Against more seasoned players it's not as effective but then the bigger stuff like crusaders and terminators as sooch said would be a better target....


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

I'm not sure about the TFC, AV 10 is a pretty harsh nock against it IMHO, but it does have tohe potential to be devastating (especially if used in the manner Reevan suggests), it has the potential to match a full Devastator squad in high S hits... for less then the Devs.


----------



## Lord Reevan

the tournament I came second a while back in I was playing BA and although it was a 2000pt tournament I have altered the list to become 1750, which is the norm for tournamnets it seems. here goes. 

Chaplain-terminator armour-125pts

Assault terminators- X5, 4 with lightning claws, 1 with thunder hammer - 200pts

Land Raider Crusader - extra armour - 265pts

assault squad - X10, plasma pistol, power weapon - 280pts

assault squad - X10 , plasma pistol, power fist - 290pts

tactical squad - X10, powerfist, meltagun - 225pts

rhino - extra armour, extra storm bolter - 60pts

devastator squad - X5, 4 missile launchers - 190pts

whirlwind - 85pts

Death Company - 5 free, jump packs - 25pts

TOTAL - 1745pts

Basically How I used it was crusader with chaplain and assault terminators inside flanked by the two assault squads, with the DC following close, and the rhino moving behind the crusader. Crusader hits an objective, clears it with everything I hit it with, then drop the tac marines to hold it. they then advance and clear other objectives all the while the whirlwind and the dev squad are punishing the enemy with blasts from cover. 

it took on nid stealer+fex lists, nid horde lists, eldar wave serpent, eldar bike lists, guard tank lists, guard horde lists, thousand son lists, double lash lists and khorne lists. The winner was a thousand son player with two CC defilers that stopped my convoy long enough to get the sons in range to rape.... brilliantly though t by him.

Now I know this is more for Codex marines but I thought I'd just put it up here to let people dissect it and maybe change it to a C:SM list....


----------



## Digg40k

I've had a degree of success with this list.

Master of the Forge
Conversion Beamer

Tactical Squad
5 Extra Marines
Sergeant with Meltabombs
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino

Tactical Squad
5 Extra Marines
Sergeant with Meltabombs
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino

Tactical Squad
5 Extra Marines
Sergeant with Meltabombs
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Rhino

Devastator Squad
5 Extra Marines
2 Plasma Cannons
2 Missile Launchers

Devastator Squad
5 Extra Marines
2 Plasma Cannons
2 Missile Launchers

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer & DCCW
Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer & DCCW
Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer & DCCW
Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer & DCCW
Seismic Hammer & Meltagun
Drop Pod

2000 Points


----------



## Shaun_wi

In respect to tactical marines has anyone tried combat squading (not in annialation missions though - too many kill points) so that you have 5 marines with the assault weapon e.g. flamer and the other 5 with the heavy weapon so that half of your squads can advance while firing without negating the heavy weapon (as would happen in a ten man squad) and leaving the rest as a static battle line that can take objectives in the later turns and take out the heavier stuff in your opponents army or just land blast templates if your facing hordes.

I understand that 5 man squads maybe easy to beat on their own but advancing together thay could shoot pistols and templates before assaulting, if only to negate their opponents +1 attack for them assaulting you. However if you used 2 combat sqauds on the same unit in this way you would have 8 tactical marines shooting pistols and two using flamers then assaulting and having two attacks each. This tactic would also reduce the effects of things like lash that only affect 1 squad.

This is just an idea, I'm relatively new to 40k so please feel free to rip this apart if you wish.


----------



## sooch

Yes, combat squadding is useful especially with respect to tactical marines, where their special and heavy weapon loadout often represents a conflict of interest. Not exactly new information, but very valid nonetheless.


----------



## Devinstater

This all spawned after the Baltimore GT. Has their been a GT since then that might offer up some new information?


----------



## Salvor

Have we come up with a way in this thread to make marine armies work?

Are the standard troop choices not up to the job on a GT level? are scout too easy to knock off an objective there holding and tactical squads unable to force the oppisition off there's?

Is it upto taking Pedro to enable Sternguard to become scoring units the solution to this? as with the inclusion of Pedro you get a pistol shot before charging and getting 4 attacks from each member, if you include this with Pedro's powerfist and including one on your Sgt, plus perhaps taking 2 heavy flamers for your sternguard makes quite an outstanding assault squad. 

Could you include Pedro and a honour guard squad with the champion having a thunder hammer in a razorback with twin-linked heavy flamer, with the sternguard squad following up. Enabling a lot of attacks on the charge and hopefully clearing enemy units off objectives, leaving the sternguard in place to hold it with there special ammunition and letting Pedro and his honour guard too run off and either take another objective or hit enemy special units, characters or MC's.

At a 1750 point level is it feasable to include a master of the forge to allow the taking of dreadnoughts as heavy support choices, either drop podding in and backing up the initial attacks or staying back and holding the home objective, with plasma cannons to take out enemy vehicles coming in too atack you or shooting up hordes, pretty good at both IMO. With the power weapon and inclusion of heavy flamers to enable better CC tasking to the unit also.

Do landspeeders give the option of harrassing enemy flanks with the ability to take both heavy flamers and multi-melta's giving more than option for use, or are these far too flimsy?

Are terminators a good option, or do they need a land raider to get the most out of them as once they teleport in they are ratrher stuck and a mobile enemy will just bug out and you will be left with a rather exspensive unit not doing a great deal, even if contesting an objective a cheap enemy unit and stand off and shoot them and either rush in at the end to contest or with luck wipe them out. But including a land raider is a serious point investment especially if they spend the majority of the game chasing a enemy around the board. Standard terminators are perhaps better to hold objectives as at least any unit sent to shoot them up will at least get shot back at. Also there seems to be lots of units with armour save ignoring weaponry.

Assault squads now slightly cheaper are a good option but IMO the sternguard work better if combined with pedro as they can score plus hopefully hold out due to the special ammunition being able to damage most things thrown at them.

Vanguard vets are good but way too exspensive if given jump packs plus not scoring, unsure how much heroic intervention will repay its points in either taking down enemy units or performing a function to negate the 'cost back' need.

Scouts with sniper rifles are cheap as far as marines go and can do some damage with a bit of luck. Personally I've found they are quite handy with the 2 Plasma equipped dreads at the back on the home objective to intercept incoming units and bolstering the defences with my master of the forge equipped with a conversion beam, this is my hard centre hopefully taking fire from the sterngaurd etc driving up the board.

I haven't used many bike squads or tanks so can't really waffle too much about them (probably thankfully) The only one i've used much is whirlwinds, this combined with Pedro again on the opening turn of a game can lay down a lot of templates from the outset, especially if you include in the conversion beam, but once enemy units close the best use for whirlwinds i've found is to drive them out and try to tank shock incoming assault units. So perhaps not too bad, two whirlwinds, Pedro and the master of the forge is 4 pie plates on turn 1, 3 on turn 2 and turn 3 if your lucky then ruch them out and try to slow down the advance and use your dreads to take down whats left with the plasma cannons. Good against hordes but highly mobile specialist units? unfortunately im guessing that the top GT players are highly mobile specialist units as opposed to hordes, but bloody hard to find lists from the heats :ireful2:

Being I've had little success with Chap's & Lib's I will also leave these out.

Hope this has been of some use in this thread if nothing more than getting a few more posts as the length of this thread is quite vast and it seems to dry up a bit of late which seems a shame especially as nothing concrete appears to have come from it.

Again sorry for waffling from a relative newbie who probably has all the above wrong anyway, but if I/we learn anything from my ramblings perhaps it will get us closer to the objective of this thread.

As a final note it would seem that an army needs to be to able to get the right units into the right place at the right time to do well, and as marine players can we get our units to do this, or as a bonus enable them to do two things well, whilst this point is obvious I was hoping to deal in a adept way as is possible to show this, whether I have had success you may judge (nicely would be cool though :laugh.


----------



## Salvor

A quick sorry about my above post as I should of reviewed before sending as a few spelling mistakes crept in ooops!!

On a note also my prob with Drop podding in dreads is that they can be left highly inmobile at the back of the board if the oppisition chooses to run off and ignore them. Plus the giving away of kill points in the inmobile pods.

Cheers again


----------



## Someguy

Thanks for the contribution Salvor.

It's true that we haven't come up with any definitive answers. Sooch and others posted some good lists a few pages back that are worth checking out, as I think they would give you a very good starting point from which to develop your own army.

I think the answer may partially lie with the other thread talking about how you don't need all that many troops. Marines do have some quite killy units, and making the most of these is probably the way to go.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Would it be productive for this thread to have a high ranking GT list, say from an army that is in the top 3, and then try and design a list to counter that?


----------



## Salvor

I would say it's a good idea.

It's ok stating what we use and how we use it, but I for one tend to play people who take what models inspire them and fluff, plus cost. Rather than a army designed to win a GT and no fluff or pretty models influences.

Plus the fact that it seems near impossible to find lists on the net from a GT.


----------



## Someguy

Vashtek and I played a couple of games this weekend using marines and orks. I've drawn up a list based on that.

Lysander (or maybe Pedro)

10 man Terminator Squad. 2 Cyclones and 2 Chain fists (usually combat squadded)

10 man Tactical Squad. Plasma Cannon and Melta gun. Rhino.

5 man Scout Squad. Power Fist and missile launcher.

Land Speeder Storm with heavy flamer.

10 Sisters of battle. Flamer and heavy flamer, Vet with Combi-Flamer and book.

Redeemer with Melta and Extra armour.

Crusader with Melta

1747 points all in.

The big terminator squad was something of a revealation to Vashtek and me. It's a very shooty thing and would work well with either Pedro or Lysander in the area. It's something of an antidote to nobz mobs to put 36 power fist attacks out on the charge. Vashtek had them in his army, though using assault cannons and no chainfists. I think the cyclones and chainfists are a good change though. Combat squadding them gives the option of putting both cyclones in one unit while the chainfists ride off in a LR and saw holes in stuff. Questionable whether chainfists are actually required, but 10 points isn't a lot and the difference against armour 14 targets is very significant.

The scouts in the storm didn't do very well to be honest, though they were extremely unlucky to fail a charge into difficult terrain, needing a 3 on a 3 dice difficult terrain test. If they carry on being useless then they will be dropped. As it is, they are a slightly cheaper troops choice than a tactical squad.

Lysander vs Pedro is a difficult choice. Lysander is great on paper but in practice he doesn't have a lot of attacks and it can all go wrong if the dice are in a bad mood. A list with Pedro in would have some sternguard instead of the sisters squad I think, packing a bunch of combi-meltas. It would also be quite legitimate to just take a librarian, chaplain or MoF, in order to squeeze in a vindicator.

The plan is to shoot, usually. The LRs would be free to operate as battle tanks. The sisters would usually ride in one of them, or sometimes the rhino. Alternatively, if I'm up against a heavy shooting army, everyone piles into transports and bundles forward as fast as possible.

It's not a perfect list or plan, but I think it's workable. Comments welcome.


----------



## sooch

I like to kit the scouts with PW/bombs, cloaks, sniper rifles, and a ML just in case they end up having to sit back in missions when it wouldn't be advantageous to suicide in the storm.

I still think that if you're going to bring a special character, then Vulkan is the man. New 1750 list:

Master of the Forge 135 (joins scouts)
Conversion Beamer

5 Tactical Marines 170
Meltabombs
Razorback w/ Assault Cannon

5 Tactical Marines 170
Meltabombs
Razorback w/ Assault Cannon

5 Tactical Marines 165
Razorback w/ Assault Cannon

10 Scouts 230
Telion
Sniper Rifles
ML
Cloaks

Dreadnought 115
Heavy Flamer
Multimelta

Dreadnought 115
Heavy Flamer
Multimelta

Dreadnought 115
Heavy Flamer
Multimelta

2 Land Speeder Squadron 140
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer

2 Land Speeder Squadron 140
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer

Predator 85
HB Sponsons

Predator 85
HB Sponsons

Predator 85
HB Sponsons

Total 1750

Thoughts?


----------



## Lord Reevan

That's a fairly troop heavy list Sooch I like it. One thing though would attack bikes be better than the land speeders for anti tank and anti horde with the multi melta and heavy bolters? I find them a lot more survivable as they're not vehicles(hence no obscured thingy, always a 4+ basically) and they have twin linked bolters to help deal with the hordes. PLus they're a good bit cheaper. what do you guys think?


----------



## sooch

Updated the new list. No, I'm not really a fan of the attack bikes. Speeders are vehicles, and thus are more survivable than them.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

I figure a T5 W2 model is interchangable with an AV10 vehicle really. Both are good for 2 hits once the shit hits the fan.

sooch, that list begs for Vulcan, otherwise I cant really criticize.


----------



## sooch

Even if a lascannon nails a speeder, it only has a 1/3 chance of destroying it, discounting any 3+ cover fast vehicle save it might have. If a lascannon nails an attack bike, it's toast.

T5 2W is not interchangeable with AV10 IMO.


----------



## elkhantar

All things considered, both things are almost equal in survivability, with a slight variability depending on the army you are facing.

The bike can have a turbo-boost or cover save, so it can survive the lascannon (or anything S>=8) too (and is 25% cheaper to boot). 

And a stray heavy bolter/gauss weapon/scatter laser/pulse carbine /plasma/stubber/boltgun shot (anything with STR>=4<8) can kill a speeder with only one shot, whereas the bike will take at least two of those.

On the other hand, the speeder is impervious to S3 weapons, which can kill the attack bike when fired en-masse (IG anyone?) and can't be locked up in melee (a fate that many bikes face after they've blown up their primary target) so it's basically a tie.


----------



## Someguy

Not a tie in my opinion.

As Sooch pointed out, if you are firing at an attack bike you know that a krak missile or lascannon shot, or whatever, is going to instant kill it on a 2+. You therefore fire one of these things at it, and it dies pretty reliably in one or two shots. This doesn't work on the speeder.

Both can potentially be killed by small arms fire, but the bike can also be very easily killed in CC, unlike the speeder (if moving fast at least). The bike gets locked, unlike the speeder.

Personally I don't like either one very much.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I've seen them used to great effect, I played against a 1500 list with 3 Attack Bikes and 4 Speeders  Mostly Heavy bolters, they tore through stuff like nobodies buisiness. My opponent won with a single tac marine on his objective and contesting another by turbo-boosting his bikes onto the other in turn 7.


----------



## Sons of Russ

*2k and 1750 at bottom*

heres the new and improved 2k list

It is an attempt to make a hard as nails Space Marine list with lots of troops since many have been moaning about the lack of punch in the Marine Codex

for full fluff and back ground:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18031

--------------------------------------------------

I ditched the Pred, an assault termie, and a rhino to grab what I like to call a Landraider "Pocket-Battleship"

I mount the last tac squad in the Landraider. Against hordes such as orks, it make for a great one two punch in coordination with the rhino rapidfire rush.

Tacticals deploy and rapidfire from rhinos, LR tacticals assault ramp, bolt pistol and flame, and then charge the depleted mob to prevent a furious charge of his choosing next turn.

If necessary, the LR tacticals can forfeit their shots and fleet to ensure the charge.

I mount a Multi-Melta on the Landraider for the cost of a combiflamer or two dozer blades; combined with machine spirit, this can allow me to fire the lascannons at primary targets while the multi-melta can engage something tasty within 24" when holding a position.

Don't know how effective it will be in game, but I would like to try this config out as I can imagine this tank as a big panzershiff, "pocket-battleship" with multiple heavy weapons doling out the punishment now that the Landraider is so much harder to crack...

Will be modding a nice beefy low profile turret for the MM as I dont like the flimsy pintle mount, keeping with the battleship theme...

Typhoons Speeders; I can not say enough good things about them. Moving a foot and fire 2x krak rocket shots each into elusive crisis suit or side armour, or move a foot and shoot 3x hvy bolter rounds and 2x frag blasts safely out of bolter range in both cases. Amazingly versatile units.


Double Heavy Flamer Ironclad in Drop Pod; nothing says ouch like one of these landing next to your opponent's Pathfinders, Scouts, Lootas, Firewarriors, IG Hvy Weapons Platoon ect. , all tucked into cover and nicely bunched up on the first turn... 
AV13 front and sides as well as making use of the pod as cover makes this thing much harder to kill after dropping in. I used one of these to engage a Striking Scorpion Squad, my opponent could only look on helplessly as his Scorpions claw powerfist could not even scratch it. Immune to Krak grenades, able to Move Thru Cover, with 4 attacks on the charge and a super-thunderhammer adding +1 to vehicle damage, its quite the beast...

Infiltrating, Fleeting Assault Terminators. Not much else needs to be said.
For the benefit of this tactica, I am able to deploy last anywhere between 12.1-18.1" from the enemy line, then run and assault. Great 1-2 punch with teh Drop Pod'ing Ironclad. Combined with Shrike, who has a ridiculous charge range of 19-24" from his infiltrating position. Shrike can split off and pin supporting units while the termies wade into the tougher foe.

Or decide to Outflank with the whole works in case of Drop Pod Assault/Deepstrike Armies.

Even conventional deployment is rewarded as you can wait till your opponent has placed all his units before putting your assault termies behind your own gunline as a counter charge unit...

Your opponent will be having fits as he has to try and deal with all possibilities and that will mean a less than efficient formation on turn 1 for him.

Let me know what you think of the list, should prove interesting as the Marine Codex has been out long enough for people to be familiar and comfortable with it since I first posted the original list in October...


HQ: 195

Xavier Alkamenes 
Assassin-Captain of the 5th Company,Shadow Reapers of Corax Adeptus Astartes Chapter
Hammer-Blades of Lakonia [MC'ed, Rending Lightning Claws, Bolt Pistol]
Shadow Killer [Infiltrates, grants Teleport Precision-Assault to Terminators via Psyker Beacon]
The Training of the Agoge: Hoplite Warriors [Endurance of a Spartan; Fleet]

[counts as Shrike, Infiltrate to Terminators, Fleet to whole army]

ELITES:465

Ariston, the Eldest Guard 185
"Death-Blossom" Pattern IronClad Dreadnought
Seismic Hammer/Heavy Flamer, DCCW/Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod 

The Xiphos Guard 280
7x Assault Terminators
[2x Lightning Claws, 5x Thunder-Hammer/Storm Shield]


FAST ATTACK:180


1x Landspeeder, Typhoon Pattern [Heavy Bolter] 90


1x Landspeeder, Typhoon Pattern [Heavy Bolter] 90



TROOPS:885

10x Man Tactical Hoplite Squad A 255
Vet Sgt Power Fist/Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Lascannon
Rhino w/ Dozer Blade


10x Man Tactical Hoplite Squad B 220
Flamer
Lascannon
Rhino w/ Dozer Blade


10x Man Tactical Hoplite Squad C 215
Flamer
Lascannon
Rhino 


10x Man Tactical Hoplite Squad D 195
Vet Sgt Power Fist
Flamer
Rocket Launcher



Heavy Support:275

Landraider - Panzerschiff "Lysander" 
2x TL Lascannons
1x Multi-Melta
1x Tl Hvy Bolter
[Machine Spirit, Xtra Armr] 


2000 pts

AT:
3x Lascannons
2x TL Lascannons
5x Rocket Launcher Krak Missiles
1x Multi Melta

AP:
5x Flamers
2x Hvy Flamers on AV 13 [Drop Podding 1st turn]
41x Bolt Pistols/Bolters [All Mechanized/Mobile]
5x Frag Rocket Blasts
3x Hvy Bolters [1x TL]

Assault:

7xInfiltrating/Outflanking & Fleeting Assault Terminators [13"-18" charge reach]
1x Kayvan Shrike, Infiltrate/Outflank [19"-24" charge reach]
1x Landraider-rush 10x man Tactical Squad [21"-26" charge reach]

-------------------------------

1750 pts, remove cheap tac squad, remove 1x assault termie

possibly combat squad one tactical if required...



COMMENTS/QUESTIONS?


----------



## Sons of Russ

sooch said:


> Even if a lascannon nails a speeder, it only has a 1/3 chance of destroying it, discounting any 3+ cover fast vehicle save it might have. If a lascannon nails an attack bike, it's toast.
> 
> T5 2W is not interchangeable with AV10 IMO.


landspeeders cant take any appreciable str 4 fire, doesnt take much to stun or shake them, while the T5 2x wound attack bikes can often shrug off far more anti personnel fire while still moving shooting, and assaulting speedy units like crisis suits or dire avengers about to remount their wave serpent so the rest of your forces can get to grips...

its apples to oranges really.

I myself favour the Typhoon with Hvy bolter as it has huge potential in both anti armour anti personal work; moveover, its shortest weapon range is 36", well outside of bolter range.


----------



## spike12225

wow got to page 2 lol

anyway tactics are everything with any army even horde running at enemy is a tactic....

space marines are tough as a base my club always whines when i pass saves but they have 2x the models in a 1250 league ATM and have found a nice list that's worked well so far

Chaplin: jump pack

venerable dread: ass cannon heavy flamer drop pod

tactical squad: lascannon flamer rhino
tactical squad: lascannon flamer rhino

assault squad: PF flamerx2 10 man

Dev squad: +3 marines 3x ML 1x PC razorback heavy bolter

i combat squad yes heard it before makes them weak etc not in my opinion any way
Sargent flamer 3 boys ride in 2 rhinos shielding assault marines while razor moves 6 behind for support fire. 
My Dev squad took out hellhound and demolisher in 2 turns he kept demo front armour at lascannons so put 3 krak into his side boom i believe 5 men and a lascannon are a tank magnet while plas cannon makes Dev look like anti personnel but that can cost them even if its one turn not shooting at infantry.
marines to me are a tactical army need to be adapted to situations yes rhinos and assault sq hit most vital part but the rest need to take out major threats....
A venerable dread in there ranks 1st turn is harsh str5 AP 4 template at that range is deadly re-roll has saved me plenty of times spent a game stunned for first 2 turns but didn't make him re-roll in case of boom but it meant my rhinos got too his ranks unhurt as he put everything into dread which ended up surviving game and killing 3 sentinels in cc.

I'm currently ordering bits to convert 2 dreads to clads i already have three pods i know what your thinking keep army in reserve only prob is on bad rolls you suddenly come in piece meal and are destroyed in same way.
No enemy on the field means i can move my force up to better positions out side of deployment so you move in then get blasted not always smart. 
but to the point av13 is toughh even for an ork powerclaw


----------



## sooch

Sons of Russ said:


> landspeeders cant take any appreciable str 4 fire, doesnt take much to stun or shake them, while the T5 2x wound attack bikes can often shrug off far more anti personnel fire while still moving shooting, and assaulting speedy units like crisis suits or dire avengers about to remount their wave serpent so the rest of your forces can get to grips...
> 
> its apples to oranges really.
> 
> I myself favour the Typhoon with Hvy bolter as it has huge potential in both anti armour anti personal work; moveover, its shortest weapon range is 36", well outside of bolter range.


If I play an opponent who hops out of a rhino to rapid fire a land speeder, I will smile and let him do it. Why? Because the risk vs. reward of firing bolters at a speeder isn't worth it, at all. If you want to rely on getting those sixes, more power to you, but really it isn't something that's reliable at all. In any case, bolters wound bikes on fives and speeders on sixes, and both have 3+ through cover or armor. Bikes have two wounds but shots that get through on the speeder won't necessarily kill it or even do any lasting damage, whereas if a bike fails 2 saves it is most certainly dead.


----------



## Someguy

Re your list SoR:

I do like what you have there. There are one or two suggestions I'd make though.

Firstly, I would go for a land raider crusader in that list. It is considerably more flexible than the basic model and can fire all its guns while moving up to 6". Alternatively, if you really are always going to race towards the enemy, go for a redeemer.

The crusader could also carry your termies. Now I know you have infiltrate for them, and fleet, but think about the threat range of a unit of 7 fleet assault termies in a crusader. It gives you another option anyway though it would leave Shrike infiltrating alone, or with a tactical squad.

I'm interested that flamer/lascannon seems to be the default weapons fit for tactical squads nowadays. With the large number of transports around in the current metagame I think missile launcher/melta is a better fit in general. I wouldn't say to take no flamers at all, but I think you can have too many and not enough ways to get your enemy out of his rhinos and wave serpents. It also helps a whole lot against other people's land raiders.

As for the bike vs speeder thing, speeders are more vulnerable to small arms but bikes suffer more to heavier stuff that IKs them. Typhoons look like a good option thanks to their range, but for the cost you can get two bikes.


----------



## tony161

In wd a few months ago, there was an artical about this and took marines as an example in standard bearer. It said that good players in the gt win 5 in 10 games, and that "uber" lists won only 6 in 10 times on average. Count in that most people take marines as a starter army and u realize that the list wasn't designed to have sablime tactics like tau and eldar. But every one will say that marines are tacticaly forgiving, and marines will be able to match the 5 in 10 if they can talor the force to the enemy, and even shift SM codexs between matchs (eg: dark angles to space wolves). However if all the marine players got together to come up with tactics and not lists for space marines in general, we could come up with tactics as good as eldar or tau. Orks and nids are a bad example of good tactics, really as they're so many on a table.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

Hey all, I've read all 42 pages ofthis thread and its given me a few ideas. 

Firstly I've never really thought of my marines from a "if it gets it's points back it's done it's job" viewpoint. While I'm very aware tis doesn't always work, it's certainly a place to start.

Next is Tactcal squads. I've always used a sea of them (in hindsight to very little avail). But the more I think about it the more I like the idea of taking the basic 2 troops and then maximising your ability to deny the enemy other objectives. 
Tactical squads aren't bad, but the definatly aren't good at specialising, or multi-tasking.
So I think that the ideal use for tactical squads (as already mentioned) is to hold two objectives and let the other elements of your army deal with the enemy.

But

Scouts do this cheaper (granted they aren't as survivable but provided they are in cover they still stand a good chance) 
Another great thing about scouts is the sniper rifles. These are great because of their range, meaning scouts can still contribute to the battle as a whole (again already mentioned)

Sternguard...I love them, I Love everything about them and Think that they are kickass.
They can dish out a good deal of damage and their SM stats give them a reasonable chance of surviving for a good deal of time. They are the perfect contrast to tactical marines, they can score (good ol Pedro) and they can be of some use as they are doing it.

So I think I scout/sternguard lists could be very useful.

Here is a list based on one of sooches earlier posts 

HQ

Pedro Kantor @ 175pts

Elites

5 Assault Terminators [5x TH, SS] @ 200pts

5 Sternguard Marines [Rhino] @ 155

5 Sternguard Marines [Lacannon] @ 140

5 Sternguard Marines [Razorback w/ TL Lascannon] @ 200pts

Fast Attack 

Assault Squad [No jump packs, rhino] @ 115

Troops

5 Scouts [snipers] @ 75pts

5 Scouts [snipers] @ 75pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider @ 250pts

Vindicator @ 115 

Total Points_1500


This list is only 1500 points so that it can be built upon.

The main plan with this list is all about threat analysis. First turn decide what needs to die (Primarily tanks as they have the most obvious chance of taking out your mobiltiy). 

So let's say you're playing against another marine player and he has a landraider, well if you can see it, shoot every lascannon you have+ your vindicator at it until it dies! Continue to do this every turn, choose a target, and use the lascannons+Demolisher until it dies. Your biggest targets are obviously Armour and MCs. 

The landraider can fire one of it's LC each turn thanks to the machine spirit but the Razorback cannot. Which makes the Sternguard squad inside it perfect for taking objectives that are reasonalbe close to your deployment, but too far for the foot slogging scouts. Then the razorback can set up obscured behind a piece of terrain preferably and start pot shotting, whilts still being close enough to pick up the sternguard if you need to.

The landraider's main role is to carry Pedro and the Termies to the battle line. the assault squad will also advance close to the LR. I know assualt squads aren't the best but Pedro's +1 attack within 12 inches should given them (and the already deadly terminators) that extra punch. 
You want to try and direct the Assault squad to troops choices, these should be easy enough to defeat as long as they aren't too numerous. Pedro and the Termies shuld be targeting higher profile units (don't be afraid to throw them in against an MC, they can take it)

The foot mounted sternguard should set up in a position to use their LC, but not too far away from other units so they can help/be helped.

the final squad of sternguard can be your reactive squad, ideal to take outreaching objectives, or to add to the assault if things turn sour.

This list should be played semi-reactivley. Using one or two of your squads to react to unfavourable situations, whilst keeping the rest of the army with set goals.

The best thing about a set up like this is the scoring sternguard, their mobility mean they have a good chance of capturing those end game objectives.

Against a horde army you would have to play more defensivly, using your good firepower to reduce numbers before throwing out a powerful counterchanrge with Pedro/Termies/Assault marines. The sternguad and scouts both have the ability to fire at 30 inches and more, use this to get that extra turn of fire before comminting to helfire rounds, rapid fire, then counter charge.

Obviously all of these things can be defeated due to cunning enemy movement, dice rolls etc. But youshould be bale to adapt and produce a new strategy without too much hassel.

Hope this helps a little

Reaper


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## Vashtek

imm0rtal reaper said:


> Hey all, I've read all 42 pages ofthis thread and its given me a few ideas.
> Here is a list based on one of sooches earlier posts
> 
> HQ
> 
> Pedro Kantor @ 175pts
> 
> Elites
> 
> 5 Assault Terminators [5x TH, SS] @ 200pts
> 
> 5 Sternguard Marines [Rhino] @ 155
> 
> 5 Sternguard Marines [Lacannon] @ 140
> 
> 5 Sternguard Marines [Razorback w/ TL Lascannon] @ 200pts
> 
> Fast Attack
> 
> Assault Squad [No jump packs, rhino] @ 115
> 
> Troops
> 
> 5 Scouts [snipers] @ 75pts
> 
> 5 Scouts [snipers] @ 75pts
> 
> Heavy Support
> 
> Land Raider @ 250pts
> 
> Vindicator @ 115
> 
> Total Points_1500
> 
> Reaper


This is my take on abusing Pedro:

HQ	
Pedro Kantor	175

Librarian (Null zone, Gate of Infinity)	100

Elites	
5 Assault Terminators (4x thunder hammer, 1x lightning claw)	200

10 Sternguard Marines 10x combi-weapons (mainly melta guns)	300
Rhino	35

10x terminators- 2x assault cannon	460

Troops	
Marine Squad I: 5x extra marines, missile launcher, meltagun, powerfist	200
Rhino	35

Marine Squad II: 5x extra marines, missile launcher, meltagun, powerfist	200
Rhino	35

Total 1740


10 points left for a combi melta on a tac squad or 2x chainfists in the termie squad to stop those tankshocks from happening.

The terminators are brutal with the extra +1A from Pedro. You also get to port them around with the librarian if you require and you own opponents termies by making em reroll their invulnerables. 

cyclone/ass cannon is debatable but I kinda want more powerfists and I believe cyclones lose them?

Tactical marines are overcosted but at least with this setup they can achieve stuff. Sniper rifle scouts fail at achieving pretty much anything, and do not combo with Pedro. I considered a storm, but I think a second tac squad works better with Pedro and gives me a 3 rhino assault force which I kinda like.

Remember not to post points costs for individual upgrades. Unit totals will suffice -G


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## spike12225

son of russ good hard list but a redeemer is going to work better you have plenty of anti tank already redeemer is an assualt vehicle.
Move twelve still put flame template out bs2 won't care with multi melta its only 250pts cheaper ap3 flamers can't go wrong when supporting your terminators


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## bl0203

spike12225 said:


> son of russ good hard list but a redeemer is going to work better you have plenty of anti tank already redeemer is an assualt vehicle.
> Move twelve still put flame template out bs2 won't care with multi melta its only 250pts cheaper ap3 flamers can't go wrong when supporting your terminators


Actually the new PMS attacks at BS 4 now :victory:


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## spike12225

are you serious and i've been shootiing it at bs2 ha ha my new dumbest mistake never bother to read it since it was always 2 ha ha give myself a kick in the head thanks for hheads up


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## TwoKill

I've been following this thread and joined the site to comment on it, and I was wondering what people thought about Conversion beamers on bikes. One strategy which I have been trying to do with my Space Marines is load up on as many heavy weapons as possible and make my enemies come to me. A great way to do this was putting a conversion beamer on a bike so that no transport has the capability of getting to my line. The conversion beamer combined with all the heavy weapons I can afford has made it extremely difficult for anyone to get to my gun line. Then near the end of the game I can swoop in with various transports of my own to capture control points around the board. It has had pretty good success especially against chaos, and has never left a land raider on the board (or at least left it immobolized) so I was wondering what people thought of a list containing one.


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## Katie Drake

TwoKill said:


> I've been following this thread and joined the site to comment on it, and I was wondering what people thought about Conversion beamers on bikes. One strategy which I have been trying to do with my Space Marines is load up on as many heavy weapons as possible and make my enemies come to me. A great way to do this was putting a conversion beamer on a bike so that no transport has the capability of getting to my line. The conversion beamer combined with all the heavy weapons I can afford has made it extremely difficult for anyone to get to my gun line. Then near the end of the game I can swoop in with various transports of my own to capture control points around the board. It has had pretty good success especially against chaos, and has never left a land raider on the board (or at least left it immobolized) so I was wondering what people thought of a list containing one.


Certainly an interesting idea. I personally wouldn't have thought of using a Master of the Forge at all, let alone on a bike with his unique heavy weapon. :good: The additional movement granted to him by his Bike, plus the _Relentless_ rule will help him keep the enemy at a distance too and therefore increase the effectiveness of his beamer.


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## Dessel_Ordo

I've been working with a gunline/something list alot lately myself, the conversion beamer is one of the best values in the new 'Dex IMHO. Right now I'm building some bike squads, and a Kor'Sarro Command Squad (bikes) to add to my base gunline. I have the list written up at 1850/2250, and I'm working on a 200pt version for this round of Tactica Wars. heres the list, I didnt feel like re-typing the whole thing here If I outflank all the bikes, its dangerous/unexpected; if I dont, its a gunline thats damn-hard to reach, let alone cut up in CC


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## sooch

The MOTF is useful for taking dreadnoughts while at the same time capitalizing on the excellent and cheap predators/whirlwinds or the not-so cheap land raiders. They are also good at hanging out with cloaked scout squads on a home objective. Bike is not totally necessary.


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## TwoKill

I consider the bike a necessity to ensuring I get the strength 10 ap 1 hits out of the bike. I have actually done two conversions that are MOTF with conversion beamer on a bike, I plan on seeing how a list with two of these guys in it works out in some casual games.

I also have seen an extreme lack of Thunderfire Cannon in this thread. I feel that it will devastate almost any unit, because you are getting a massive number of hits on guys. For 100 points it will easily gain its points back, and the giant range will allow it to be anywhere on the board and continue to be effective. Just making sure its behind cover and some bolstered defenses and your set.


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## Dessel_Ordo

IMHO the Conversion Beamer and TFC are our only real check against Tau Rail-weaponry (aside from hoping to hell our assault squads dont get swiss-cheesed trying to reach said rail-weaponry)


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## TwoKill

Based on what I've read in this thread here is what I have come up with. The tactic is mainly use a gunline, out range them and force them to come to you. Then in in the final 2 turns you load up what you can into rhinos and move across the board to capture objectives. If it is not an objective mission then there is no point in moving. Keep your squads together so then can support each other and it is always always important to focus fire on one unit until it is useless.

My chapter is the Black Storm and here is my list.

Pedor Kantor (175)
MOTF | Conversion Beamer | Bike (155)
10 Tactical Squad | Boltgun | Missile Launcher | Flamer | Power Fist | Rhino (230)
10 Tactical Squad | Boltgun | Missile Launcher | Flamer | Power Fist | Rhino (230)
9 Scouts | Cloaks | Sniper Rifles (162)
10 Sterngaurd | Power Fist (275)
10 Sterngaurd | 4x Combi Melta (is led by Pedor)
1 Dreadnaught | Plasma Cannon | Heavy Flamer (125)
1 Dreadnaught | Plasma Cannon | Heavy Flamer (125) (heavy choice)
1 Thunderfire Cannon (100)
5 Devestator Squad 4x Missile Launcher (150)

1997

This list features 62 models and I feel its strength is that it should be capable of staying back and laying waste to enemies while they are forced to march to you. Anything other then a multiple land raider list will truly give this trouble. The trick is to keep your units together and make sure to focus fire focus fire focus fire. When you are ready to move forward keep one unit back on your own capture point and move the sterngaurd forward while being protected by a cover save from rhinos. Make sure the conversion beamer takes out any ranged things (or armor 14 things) that pose a major threat, and keep moving so that you will get a cover save and they won't. 

I think this list is very balanced but would be in trouble if it faced a gunline that could outshoot it, but then hopefully the thunderfire cannon and conversion beamer could take out anything whose range is dangerous to the rest of the army. Also, don't forget to split up the tactical squads so that your missile launchers can stay back while the rest move forward with sterngaurd support. This list features 5-9 units that can hold objectives in objective games.

(this is turning into a long post so bear with me)

I think the thunderfire cannon is the best all around thing a space marine player can take. Because the techmarine gets a servo harness you are basically paying only 25 points for the cannon itself, and from my experience a strength 6 heavy 4 blast (or strength 5 ignore cover saves) has become extremely useful when it comes to taking out hordes of enemies and elite units alike. I feel that the gunline can be the most effective way to use space marines, especially if you are concentrating fire with all the heavy weapons and just keep making people take a lot of saves.


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## sooch

*HQ*

Vulkan He'stan 190pts 

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100pts

*Elites*

Dreadnought (Multimelta, Storm Bolter) 105pts

Dreadnought (Multimelta, Storm Bolter) 105pts

Dreadnought (Multimelta, Storm Bolter) 105pts

*Troops*

10 Scouts (8x Sniper Rifles, 9x Camo Cloaks, Heavy Bolter, Sgt. Telion) 227pts

10 Tactical Marines (Flamer, Combi-melta, Multimelta, Rhino) 215pts

10 Tactical Marines (Flamer, Multimelta, Rhino) 205pts

10 Tactical Marines (Flamer, Missile Launcher, Razorback) 210pts

*Fast Attack*

2 Land Speeder Squadron (2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Multimelta) 140pts

2 Land Speeder Squadron (2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Multimelta) 140pts
*
Heavy Support*

Predator (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) 85pts

Predator (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) 85pts

Predator (Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons) 85pts

Total: 1997pts


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## Evil beaver2

How can a 10 man tactical squad fit in a razorback?


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## sooch

They combat squad, with the flamer half in the razorback.


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## TwoKill

In the most recent list I feel that the multi melta on the dreadnaughts is a bit of a waste and you should work out the points to upgrade it to a plasma cannon, or something else with a little bit better range. You already have 4 very mobile multi melta on the land speeders and chances are you won't need to kill much more then 1 and if in the worse case scenario 2 things that won't be destroyed by the humble missile launcher.


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## fett14622

This thead can't die.

BUMP!!!


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## HighHubris

Marines are just on the tournament downswing because all the best players aren't running them at tournaments. take an army that used to be at least halfway fun, then write an instruction manual that severely mentally handicapped people can use to achieve semi-effectiveness. i don't want to take them to tournaments either.


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## Vrykolas2k

I've always taken 10 man squads of tactical marines, with a plasma gun or melter, and heavy bolter. The plasma gun or melter is fine for "just in case" you run into something the bolters won't handle, but I find that heavy-bolters are best for laying down fire that takes out most PBI (which is what tactical marines are supposed to be taking out). I give the sergeant either a combi-plasma or combi-melter.
As for HQ, I run a Chapter Master with 5 Honour Guard in a Land Raider (las-cannons and multi-melter). I give him a bolter with hellfire rounds, and a relic blade. The orbital bombardment is quite handy, or maybe I'm just really lucky with my scatter dice.
I run two squads of 5 scouts; each has 3 sniper rifles, one has a heavy bolter, the other a missile launcher.
I run a Venerable Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Storm Bolter with a Tech-marine with Thunder Hammer.
My devastator Squad has a lascannon, plasma cannon, missile launcher, and multi-melter. I like variety, and the mix works well for me.
Anything else I add is for spare points... like a chaplain or captain, or a land-speeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon... or maybe I'll switch something for a squad of 5 termies with an assault cannon and chain-fist.


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## LordWaffles

HighHubris said:


> Marines are just on the tournament downswing because all the best players aren't running them at tournaments. take an army that used to be at least halfway fun, then write an instruction manual that severely mentally handicapped people can use to achieve semi-effectiveness. i don't want to take them to tournaments either.


No, no I've played really good marines. They're really awful.

Also you might have noticed that the average stray dog can make a competitive, tournament-worthy ork list, and than go on to beat all competitors with mild ease.

The only real list I've seen with strength is an all-mobile list. It's decent at taking objectives and keeps the marines alive long enough to stand on them. The problem being that they just get tabled in killpoints.

But I can tell you this much, the solution isn't with tac squads. Those are HORRIBLE, split up or not.


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## Pauly55

The Only person to place in the top 3 at the Adepticon Gladiator Tournament (which is a pretty good way to find out power lists) with out a Reaver Titan was playing SALAMANDERS. He used 2 Land Raiders, 2 MM dreads, Vulcan, 3-4 Mechanized tac squads, scouts in a land speeder storm, SS/TH Termis.


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## buddy999

*new ideas*

i think the land speeder storm version is worth looking at more,people are getting fed up of tac squads,fair enough 5 scouts won't do much but at the right time in the right place they could be a game winner,i was going all scouts as my troops ,as much as 6 to 8 squads and 3 HF storms,snipers with hellfire HB hold objectives and storms scout (lol) forward,if im reading the rules right storms can move 24" before the 1st turn(scout,fast,skimmer,flat out)move 12" on your turn,shoot the HF and the scouts still get charge,they won't be beating c&c troops but with the HF and PF they will give heavy weapons crews etc a nasty surprise:biggrin:


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## Someguy

Let's not restart the argument of whether marines are good or bad. Tournament performances continue to demonstrate a dramatic failure of marine armies, and have done ever since the codex came out. Check out this post for details of how they did at the UK GT finals for example, which is more or less representative. If you see less marines than you would expect it's because they didn't qualify, and because the ones who did are on page 2.

For me, there are two major failings with the marine list, which we have been over a number of times. Firstly the troops are just bad, and unable to engage with the kinds of troops you meet in tournament play (orks and chaos mostly). Second, points costs are too high for too much stuff. I'm going to add a third of those now, which is that HQ choices present you with some real problems and nothing to match the power and efficiency of warlords on bikes or lash princes, or even come close to them.

Some archetypes of armies are beginning to appear and work well. These include:

Salamanders. Lots of meltas and flamers, some guys with thunder hammers in a land raider of some kind (crusader probably best, vulcan doesn't improve the redeemer). A little bit of ranged support as available.

Crimson fists. Pedro and a bunch of infantry. Tactical marines do start to work ok if pedro is nearby giving them +1 attack. Sternguard and terminators also benefit here.

I think I need to really look at the biker captain option. I'm really struggling with tactical squads overall for tournament play, because they need rhinos but rhinos are a terrible liability in annihilation. I've had some success with scouts in a storm and I don't want to give those up, so I may go for biker troops instead and see how that works. Shame I really don't like the biker models. Biker command squads may be viable.


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## anarchyfever

I've been doing well with my current list,Libby, 2xtact marines(1 drop pod 1 rhino), dreadnought(plas can), Predator(dakka), sniper scouts, CCscouts, scout bikes, although I have to say that I've been thinking about getting rid of the scouts for upgrades or another cheap dreadnought. 

The dreadnought Plasma+CCW has really been proving itself of the battle field of me and I feel the need to get another.

Also the cheap Predator is another tank which has proven long range effectiveness against light tanks, with armour 13 front its also proven difficult for my enermy to get rid of. If I had more points I would think about giving one tank a twin-linked las cannon.

Drop pod has proven to be difficult to feild, it's best against small units which are trying to flank you,or for distance objectives and then acting as long range support 

The lascannon unit plus rhino has proven effective at takeing out tough units(deadguard, FNP units, and light to hvy tanks) while the second unit caused mayhem. adding a plasma gun to this squad has proven effective as the enemy tends to send his stronger units against this threat.

Sniper scouts have proven semi-effective as base protectors, adding 36" cover for the other units. The hvy bolter has been most effective as the hellfire round allows for a high hit ratio plus template, and also complements the sniper range. only recommdation would be to feild this squad as 10 man instead of 5, and if enought points add telion. camo cloaks are esscential to this squads survival.

Keeping the dreadnought back protecting this squad has proven effective as much needed CC support, it has also proven effective at taking out FNP and TEQ units. Giving the drop pod a locator becon has proven effective as support for the libby group as a much needed place to teleport back to using Gate. The drop pod is much better at taking a place which has little defense.

CC scouts have proven semi-effective in reserve, acting as objective takers and assaulting weak units when they came onto the board, a slightly larger squad may prove to be more effective, 2 shot guns has proven effective at adding a 50/50 radio of 7 attacks at shooting and CC altogether increasing the amount of landing attacks. 

Bike scouts have proven semi-effective in reserve. Being able to booby trap a piece of sceneary has left my oppenents scared to enter or leave pieces of key cover which would of increased their survival rating against my low AP weapons. When the bikes came onto the board they where best left as tank killers and for taking out remaining small resistence. it is key to leave this unit out of the main engagements. 2 grenade lauchers against the back armour of tanks has proven effective, as the weapons are also rapid fire.

that is a report of my findings so far, I may change this list some time but for now I am extremly comfortable with it.


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## sooch

Your list lacks something critical: redundancy. One plasma cannon, one predator...if it's worth taking, it's worth taking in multiples generally.


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## Pauly55

I don't know if I agree with that Sooch. Sometimes units fill niches and taking lots of that unit might not always be a great idea. This isn't always true for sure. Some units are always nice to have several of, Oblits being a perfect example. However, sometimes redundant units are just that...redundant, and wastes of points.


----------



## sooch

This is why I put the qualifier "generally" on the end. Yes, there are certain things that you don't need in multiples, but for the most part what I said holds true.


----------



## anarchyfever

sooch said:


> Your list lacks something critical: redundancy. One plasma cannon, one predator...if it's worth taking, it's worth taking in multiples generally.


you missed the important part of what I was saying, my list is mine and no one else will get it to work. 

What I'm bringing to the table is how I have found these units useful, how they have been successfully brought into my army. And my analysis of these units.

The problem with the tactical squad droppod is that they haven't got the str a sternguard squad has when they are trying to make a clear landing, so I have got around this by dropping my pod in less fought over areas.


----------



## anarchyfever

sooch said:


> Your list lacks something critical: redundancy. One plasma cannon, one predator...if it's worth taking, it's worth taking in multiples generally.


alright bottom line, this is what is most effective

1) Marines in Rhinos 
2) Dreadnought Plasma cannon+CCW
3) Predator (Dakka)

These 3 contain the most effective weaponly in the whole Space Marine armoury, and everything comes second to these 3 units.

I don't care if you feel I am wrong, play a match and tell me. becuase at the moment everything else costs so many points it's not funny.


----------



## Someguy

I haven't had much luck with marines in rhinos. They do just about ok, right up to the point where there's an annihilation game, and then it all falls apart.

I'm with yuo on the dreads and, up to a point, on the predators.

I think terminators are good, in either variety. I've found cyclone missile launchers highly effective and have done quite well using a 10 man squad with the 2 cyclones in one half and the other 5 guys in a land raider. I'm going to have a go putting assault termies in the LR and giving the missiles to something else though - either typhoons or devastators. Devastators with missile launchers are actually pretty damn cheap for what they do, in my opinion. Shame about the lack of movement though.


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## anarchyfever

i'm just making a foundary with what at least I consider the main elements, the fact is so many elements come into making an army that the troops you end up using are so many that it's hard to know where one stratagy and the other ends. 

Personally I found marines in a rhino firing from afar with a lascannon effective while units like the dreadnought protected the base and killed troops and TEQs etc. 

Looking at the price and with what they can be equipped with, marines seem to be better at clearing out the remains of battles and not starting them, leaving that to the Dreadnoughts with plasma cannons which can clear out the units fast.

Devs from my point of view should be equipped with what they need and nomore, by the time the devs are in assault they should of done what they where needed for and the longer they are in assault (adding marines to make them live longer) the less effective they are.


----------



## sooch

anarchyfever said:


> you missed the important part of what I was saying, my list is mine and no one else will get it to work.
> 
> What I'm bringing to the table is how I have found these units useful, how they have been successfully brought into my army. And my analysis of these units.
> 
> The problem with the tactical squad droppod is that they haven't got the str a sternguard squad has when they are trying to make a clear landing, so I have got around this by dropping my pod in less fought over areas.


An effective list can be used by anyone competent enough with the army...quite arrogant to think that the list works "because you play it".



anarchyfever said:


> alright bottom line, this is what is most effective
> 
> 1) Marines in Rhinos
> 2) Dreadnought Plasma cannon+CCW
> 3) Predator (Dakka)
> 
> These 3 contain the most effective weaponly in the whole Space Marine armoury, and everything comes second to these 3 units.
> 
> I don't care if you feel I am wrong, play a match and tell me. becuase at the moment everything else costs so many points it's not funny.


Do you have any reasoning to back this up? Or are you going to just claim shit because I can play that game too.


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## anarchyfever

sooch said:


> An effective list can be used by anyone competent enough with the army...quite arrogant to think that the list works "because you play it".
> 
> Do you have any reasoning to back this up? Or are you going to just claim shit because I can play that game too.


I'm sorry if I upset you, I haven't got anything to add to that


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## Someguy

Let's try to keep this civil. Sooch, it doesn't help anyone to phrase stuff in that way.

Anarchy, we could use some more information on your unit preferences. What are you up against and what kind of tactics do you use?


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## BrotherR

I think a thing that hurts tactical squads is the heavy weapon. I think most tact squads have to be moving whether it is toward an enemy or away from a threat. If they gave you the option of not taking the hvy wpn and taking a special instead 2 meltas or 2 plasmaguns in a squad would increase their value


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## sooch

Someguy said:


> Let's try to keep this civil. Sooch, it doesn't help anyone to phrase stuff in that way.
> 
> Anarchy, we could use some more information on your unit preferences. What are you up against and what kind of tactics do you use?


I'll try not to curse but I feel like here on Heresy, just like anywhere else, one should be required to back up one's claims with a solid argument. Heresy does not exist in a vacuum separate from real life; if you have to prove what you claim when you hand in a paper, why not when you're arguing a point on the forum?


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## Someguy

I agree with that. Better to have said that in the first place.


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## Vrykolas2k

sooch said:


> An effective list can be used by anyone competent enough with the army...quite arrogant to think that the list works "because you play it".
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any reasoning to back this up? Or are you going to just claim shit because I can play that game too.


Calm down and think a moment.
I make army lists that work for me, because I think about the tactics I'd employ with them.
The list may or may not work for someone else, because they may not think tactically in the same manner I do, they have their own strategy in mind.
Just like I don't play certain armies, because nothing in their composition appeals to me, and so I see little point. I build my armies around units that I've thought through how I'd use them.
So it's true that what might work for him, with his tactics, may not work for you. Or for me.
Now, it's true that when you make a list on a forum for a thread like this, you might need to explain your reasoning behind why you use it. But becoming confrontational doesn't help people to do this; rather, it closes the discussion down.
I, for one, would rather not see that.


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## sooch

"Might" need to explain your reasoning behind why you use it? In my opinion reasoning is an integral part of intelligent discussion, and without it you have nothing. I could tell you that the world is going to end tomorrow, but you would have no reason to believe me unless I backed it up with science right?

I can do calm, for instance when talking to you since you seem to be a reasonable person who takes time to think about what they say, but when someone interjects their opinion as a be-all and end-all to the three best units in the codex with little to no reasoning behind it, then I get irritated.

To address your point about "personal tactics": I believe that a good list is a good list. You may take an army of footslogging tactical marines because it fits your playstyle, but just because it fits your playstyle this does not make it a good list. A good list is a list that, playstyles being considered equal, is better than a bad list. An objectively good list is a list that does well against most armies out there and is playable by most competent players who have an idea of what to do with the units in the list. For example, if you don't like using land speeders because they die too quickly and therefore they don't fit your playstyle, maybe instead of denying them a spot in your list you should learn to use them efficiently and ADAPT your playstyle to the list. 

Just because a list doesn't appeal to you due to your unique playstyle or tactical mind or what have you, it doesn't make the list objectively bad necessarily. In that same vein, just because you do well with a list against your local metagame using your playstyle doesn't make the list objectively good either.


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## Flakey

sooch said:


> just because it fits your playstyle this does not make it a good list.
> 
> An objectively good list is a list that does well against most armies out there and is playable by most competent players who have an idea of what to do with the units in the list.
> 
> For example, if you don't like using land speeders because they die too quickly and therefore they don't fit your playstyle, maybe instead of denying them a spot in your list you should learn to use them efficiently and ADAPT your playstyle to the list.
> 
> Just because a list doesn't appeal to you due to your unique playstyle or tactical mind or what have you, it doesn't make the list objectively bad necessarily. In that same vein, just because you do well with a list against your local metagame using your playstyle doesn't make the list objectively good either.


I am trying to conduct a reasonable counter to these points, and sorry if it does not come across well,and its not aimed at Sooch more the general attitude to units in this (and other) threads. Strategy and tatics are just as much an art, as a science. Otherwiswe computers would be a lot better at strategy games than they are now. I would say that if an army, and certain units you pick do fit your playstyle, and you win most times with it it is a good list.

Objectively is an interesting word choice, and I agree an objectively good list should be transferable between many different players, but that does not make it a good personal list. A difference where the art comes in, and should, if you have the style, boost your winning and drawing percentages up by a noticable margin.

To go by your lanspeeder example. I play orks (and have done since 2nd edition) in 5th I do not field either nob bikers or lootas because they do not suit my style, yet I win 90% of my games in GW, and about 70% - 80% against friends and the local monthly hobby group. Yet fielding those units would not increase that. Infact I suspect they would ruin the synergy of the lists I do field already.

Saying all that though I would have to agree with the point that a person who says a list is good for them should try to explain why it is good for them, what about thier style or play habits that makes it work, otherwise the list is mostly not that helpful. Though I suspect that could entail a long post.


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## sooch

We're falling off topic by the way. Back to rhinos and raiders.


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## anarchyfever

I'm sorry to make such a bold claim but I feel some people need a centre to think about their army, I couldn't care less if they want to go with something else becuase in the end the way I play is completly different to how others might play.

I tend to go up against blood angles, eldar and marines. That means that I need armour becuase their are a lot of high AP weapons on the feild, my marines dies much faster (Maybe 50% or higher) without transport. Also the ability to move 12" definenly(sp) without the randomness of "run" helps a lot in my forward planning. 

My troops use 1 plasma and 1 las cannon, becuase I need one troop to deal with FNP (blood angles) troops, TEQs, Fire dragons, and Tanks from long range. The plasma group deals with groups of the same unit but will tend to go for troops to claim objectives.

The dreadnought acts as a base defender and this is helped by the Plasma cannon which acts in unison with the troop plasma cannon. Marines hate plasma and this weapon is highly effective against them. Also the Dreadnought is the only unit which is Str 10 making him the best at final CC results and allows him to take apart strong assault units. 

The predator is multi-purpose, being able to switch from base defense to offensive, its long range auto-cannon helps defend agaisnt light armour which marines make extensive use of. Eldar have few units which can last against the average Str of the predator. 

Also all of my units can move at least 12" with exception to the dreadnought which doesn't move much anyway, and is a perfect distraction.

Scouts are harder, the base defenders are dead if the dreadnought can't do it's job, but the reserve scouts act well as last mintue base takers and assaulters, although I am thinking about the CCW scouts. The snipers and Hvy bolter both faction well into the overall scheme, 36", although it doesn't hit all the time gives me a good chance against tough units from long distance while the dreadnought componsates.

In total I look for a fast responce army which can move quickly each turn to new problems, I have the least problems with the blood angels, so far the biggiest problem I have had is with learning how to use the drop pod squad, and I am thinking about changing it for another rhino. Why?, becuase I need more protection but also keep the costs low so I can get equipment I need.


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## Calamari

Isn't one of the most "competative" Marine lists a heavily mechanized army? Well I suggest that because the current cookie cutter lists are turning up crap we start getting silly and experiment. Why not drop pod 3 Thunderfires around the board? Why not take the Master of the Forge and run around with 6 Ironclads?

Just like evolution, most ideas will fail horribly but there are bound to be a few gems in the codex somewhere.


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## Someguy

Some good posts recently.

Thunder hammer terminators are very good, without doubt. Terminators make for a highly effective counter to nobz bikers, because charging termies will tend to win combat by a lot (thanks to instant killing nobz with 2 wounds each), reduce the nobz unit below half strength and break it. 

I think a dread-heavy army could work well. It's something I hear people talk about quite a lot but report on very little, so I think it exists more often on paper than on the table top. You still have a problem with troops, though tactical marines do work fairly well when protected by dreads. You would have a fairly slow-moving army and not that much firepower so you would struggle against Tau or IG. Drop pods could help here, but they can sometimes be as much trouble as they are worth.


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## fett14622

What about sternguard heavy lists? 2-3 full 10 man squads. I know SG have been giving other list a challenge. But is it consistent enough?



Or maybe pure Marine list aren't enough for the GTs. Maybe allies are needed. Running a chaplain with GK. SoB with flamer and Heavy flamer. 



I do think you need the right amount troops and mechanized units to balance each other. 

Also you don't want to be to mechanized or you will be to out numbered.


:victory:


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## sooch

Someguy said:


> Some good posts recently.
> 
> Thunder hammer terminators are very good, without doubt. Terminators make for a highly effective counter to nobz bikers, because charging termies will tend to win combat by a lot (thanks to instant killing nobz with 2 wounds each), reduce the nobz unit below half strength and break it.
> 
> I think a dread-heavy army could work well. It's something I hear people talk about quite a lot but report on very little, so I think it exists more often on paper than on the table top. You still have a problem with troops, though tactical marines do work fairly well when protected by dreads. You would have a fairly slow-moving army and not that much firepower so you would struggle against Tau or IG. Drop pods could help here, but they can sometimes be as much trouble as they are worth.


Dreads are great counters to nob bikers. Especially when you have 3 of them. They also make great mobile multimelta platforms.


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## Devinstater

Dreads always seemed weak on paper to me because of the standard move and medium armour, but performed surprisingly well on the table. I normally field all two that I have.

I'm just not sure how well they would fare against tourney lists, they perform great against friends and at the local game store however.

If you were going to be Dread heavy, you either need to have a beefy HQ or fast attack section (because all elites and hvy support are full) or take 5 and either have a libby gate termies or at larger game sizes put them in a LR.

If I had a lot of dreads I would try this solely because it sounds like a blast to play. And at an rough avg cost of 120 pts x 6 = 720 pts for 6 units, it still leaves points on the table for other things.


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## Calamari

While these are all nice ideas I think you were missing my point (please don't read this in a nasty tone, im trying to be light hearted lol).

Our thoughts on what works and what doesn't is obviously wrong. We need to change the way we look at the codex and come up with something new.

Another thing is to ignore how the unit looks on paper. Paper rarely translates fully into tabletop performance and so we should ignore what we "think" about a unit and try it out in some wacky combos with other things. What about an army full of scout bikes supported with thunderfire cannons? Or even drop pod said cannons on top of enemy squads? On paper this doesn't look right, the TC would get mauled, but has anyone tried 3 deepstriking Thunderfires?

Until we try we won't know. That is why we must try and get away from these cookie cutter army lists and concepts, yes they look good on paper but the Marine's performance in the last GT proves that what we know doesn't work.


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## Someguy

Your general point that some lateral thinking is probably required, I accept. 

Drop podding thunderfires? No. I'm pretty sure it would take your opponent by surprise, but he probably isn't going to struggle too much.


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## sooch

It's probably a bad idea to throw out conventional thinking just for the express purpose of "thinking outside of the box". To use your thunderfire example: why does a thunderfire cannon, the a weapon with huge range, want to be right up against your opponents? It doesn't. You don't need to try this on the tabletop, it's just obvious from what you already know about 40k.


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## Lord Reevan

Back in the 4th ed codex and the Old BA codex I used to run a few 6 dread armies... I was using A lot of borrowed dreads though so the weapon set ups weren't ideal. Mostly though having 2 of them with ML/lascannon proved to be very effective as they basically guaranteed a tank kill every round of firing. Then having 2 of them for anti infantry firing, more often than not heavy flamer and assault cannon Very good against the hordes and very good at being the generalised unit....

The other one was my own furiousos in drop pods. Getting dropped down behind enemy lines with enough power to destroy whatever's there they formed a very good pincer movement. Having troops to complement the dreads worked very well too. HAving sniper scouts work with the ant infantry fire dreads, assault marines with the furiouso/ironclad dreads and so on and so forth. Plus With so many vehicles they will have to hgave a lot of anti tank to make a big enough dent in your force....


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

On the subject of Dreads, how well do Ironclads preform? They seem a good choice, with 2 Missiles and a heavy flamer instead of storm bolter, it can tie up enemy squads and has a fair chance at knocking a light tank out with it's missiles, before getting close enough to use meltas and deadly dreadnought hammer to damage more tanks. So what is everyone elses opinions on them?


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## TwoKill

I currently run a 6 dreadnought list which has begun getting more and more powerful, as I've learned how to use it. 

I have a conversion beamer on bike, and he has popped a land raider or a monolith on turn 1 before, and always at least immobilizes something big. 
I want to start using sergeant telios so that he can pick out power fists and heavy weapons in units.
Then I use 6 dreadnoughts, two longer ranged ones, two medium ranged ones (with plasma cannons or assault cannons) and two iron clads to charge ahead. I also run two tactical squads one with a rhino and one with a las cannon razorback.

Last time I played I was able to take down 2 monoliths without even sicking my dreads on them. With only infantry running around the board it is very easy to clean up with armored melee beasts.

Telios taking out heavy weapons is where the key to success is going to be.


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## Someguy

Good post Twokill. That's exactly the sort of insight that you start to get from real experience. Using Telios to take out threatening individuals is a good plan. When you have a lot of one type of unit in your army you want the rest of your stuff to complement it, removing stuff that threatens it and doing stuff that it can't do.

A big advantage of a dread list is that it makes your infantry far safer. Scouts and tactical marines are in much less danger from assaulters when they have a dread standing next to them. The Motf and cloaks would give some of your scouts a 2+ cover save too, so they would be ideal for defending your home objectives.


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## sooch

I can confirm that telion is quite useful. Also like you're saying, dreads are very helpful counter-assault units, and even when they get wrecked in combat by something major they usually give the rest of your army an extra turn to get back and keep shooting.


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## Devinstater

Using Sniper scouts to work with anti-infantry dreads made me think of something.

Sniper Scouts are good. Telion is good. Five Shotgun or combat blade scouts in a Land Speeder Storm are good; outflanking or deepstriking into the enemy backfield. 

I've never tried fulfilling my troop requirements with scouts before. Does anybody have any experience using all scouts for troops? 2x Sniper scouts + a Storm? I've always felt I needed the backbone of at least one tac squad in there somewhere.


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## Crimson_Chin

I haven't filled my troops choices with scouts yet. I'm getting there. So far it's one scout squad mounted in a LR that seems to be doing a lot for me. They chill out and let the LR pummel things, and it usually gets ignored or just soaks up fire for a while. Then when my opponent gets too close, I get the 12" + assault with the scouts. And while they're in the LR, it's a scoring unit.

The way I see it, scouts are the answer to tactical marine's performance in combat. WS 3 doesn't hurt too much, you're hitting on 4's against most things. In many cases this is the same as a normal marine. Still str 4 t 4, so just as durable in that regard. More attacks, when you give them CC weps. And the 4+ armor save is only slightly worse than the 3+; especially against specialist troops with power weapons. Then it makes no difference whatsoever.

They're not as good as many other specialist CC units, but for 155 pts I run a 10 man squad with a power sword. 30 attacks on the charge isn't bad.

Really, my only qualm with the scouts is the lack of a dedicated transport - storms take up a fast attack slot, and 5 man capacity means you get less for your points with smaller squad size. No rhinos. That's why I end up using my LR to get the 18" charge off.


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## sooch

I don't agree with using solely scouts. Like you said, they don't get dedicated transports and in addition to this they can't take heavy/special weapons besides missile/HB.


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## Lord Reevan

Scouts aren't great as your only trrops I think. They're great for assisting tactical squads but not so much for taking over for them... Although using 2 in tandem could work pretty well... I mean 1 sniper unit weakening any units moving up then when close enough smack them with shotguns and CC..... could work pretty well.... Or have the CC squad as an assault squad or sterngurad for the close range punch.....


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## anarchyfever

I think we have to take examples of what hasn't worked, where did plans fall apart, what do we think our lists are missing. 

Trying to create an ultimate list has gone, looking at the new Marine codex there are lots of possible outcomes, what we need is a theory to creating our own lists, and thus knowing our weaknesses.

For example I was against a marine player last week, he had 2 marine squads with Hvy.B, and scout squad with telion and a command squad with a captain, after a heavy loss from my drop pod which landed in the kill zone (a silly mistake on my part) I began to destroy his army with my dreadnought with plasma cannon.

There was still a problem with the true effectiveness of my army but I saw an even bigger weakness for my oppenent, he was unable to define his army or how he played, my dreadnought was untouchable becuase of his front armour 12 against his Hvy bolters, the plasma was wiping out his armourless troops and command sqaud, his scouts were ultimaly misplaced. and his dreadnought was firing at my predator which was miles from the action.

But I lost, why?, becuase I made a stupid mistake with my drop pod and I couldn't captialize fast enought on my strenghts, it came to turn 7 and ended too soon for me.

Looking at my style I am very comfortable in the mech shoot style, rhinos are cheap and marines are good shooters, I've tried assault but I'm not very good an getting all my marines in assault in one go and I feel you need to do that with marines, all or nothing.


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## Son of mortarion

Devinstater said:


> Using Sniper scouts to work with anti-infantry dreads made me think of something.
> 
> Sniper Scouts are good. Telion is good. Five Shotgun or combat blade scouts in a Land Speeder Storm are good; outflanking or deepstriking into the enemy backfield.
> 
> I've never tried fulfilling my troop requirements with scouts before. Does anybody have any experience using all scouts for troops? 2x Sniper scouts + a Storm? I've always felt I needed the backbone of at least one tac squad in there somewhere.


you can do it, but unless you have experience running an eldar ranger list from 3e, it will give you some fits, as they seem best used with sniper rifle and misile launcher. you will need to set them up optimally from turn 1, otherwise you are losing out on the effectiveness of the scouts.


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## TBCX6628

Hey guys I took home best general this weekend at a 5 round 1K tournament here is what I ran and how it performed, also took home best general last month with this same list.

Marines 1K 
HQ
(138)
Chapter Master (with Dev Squad)
Storm Bolter 
Hellfire Rounds 
He did very well typically dropping a big blast first turn it's hit or miss alot but when it hits your opponent feels it. Stormbolter with hellfire typically allows him to poor on some wounds also after the first turn.

Troops
(215)
10 Marines 
Meltagun 
Plasma Cannon 
Rhino 

(215)
10 Marines 
Meltagun 
Plasma Cannon 
Rhino 
These guys where the center of my army combat squaded each game. The plasma supported me from the back, while melta ran up in rhino. I recomend taking rhinos for 35 points you can't beat them.

heavy
(182)
7X Devastator 
4X Missle Launchers 
Did exceptionally well very versatile and not to pricey, they killed plenty of infantry and vehicles rarely got hurt.

(125
Vindicator 
Seige Shield 

(125)
Vindicator 
Seige Shield 
People hated me for this but it worked exceptionally well, usually drawing alot of the enemies shots to them and typically punching a hole in their lines. ALL star of Tyranid game killed so many gaunts did well against everything else to.

(total of 9 people in Tournament)
I Fought 
1st Round Tau 13-1 good game but i killed all her troops and nabbed the objectives (She got best sportsman)
2nd Round Tyranid 13-1 boarded him (took home best Overall)
3rd Round Imp Guard 1-13 (Bad Game, way too many little guardsman to kill, also single objective in his deployment zone so I had to go to him.)
4th Round Wolves (7-7) Hate to rag on a gamer but some people need to take a bath, got a headache from the aweful smell from this guy.
5th Round Ultra Marines(13-1)only had a thunderfire cannon left at end


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## Calamari

Hmm seems like a start. Could you give us a rough break down of what happened in your games? We need to analyse tactics lol.

Grats on your award aswell


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## TwoKill

So here is the list I've been running, thought it might be interesting to give everyone a look

MOTF
Bike, Conversion Beamer
155

Troops
Scout Squad
Sniper Rifles, Cloaks, Telion
150 (I'm thinking about expanding this unit to 10 men)

Tactical Squad
Power Fist
Flamer
Las Cannon
205

Tactical Squad
Power Fist
Flamer
Las Cannon
Rhino
240

Tactical Squad
Power Sword
Razorback Twin Linked Las Cannon
180

Dreadnoughts

Las Cannon / Missile Launcher
145

Las Cannon / Missile Launcher
145

Plasma Cannon / Heavy Flamer CCW
125

Plasma Cannon / Heavy Flamer CCW
125

Ironclad Dreadnought
145

Ironclad Dreadnought
135

Total = 820 for dreads

Total 1750

The idea is basically take out all transports with the multitude of twin linked las, target more deadly stuff with the conversion beamer, and when there is hardly anything left that can hurt the dreads they pretty much can go wild in close combat. So far it was very effective, the 1500 point version of the list only lost 2 space marines to a necron army, but then again the conversion beamer destroyed a monolith on turn 1.


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## Frank

I might be missing this rule in the SM codex but can you have 6 dreadnaughts? If so can you point me in the direction of the page number?


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## TheUnmarked

The Master of the forge HQ option allows it


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## anarchyfever

Frank said:


> I might be missing this rule in the SM codex but can you have 6 dreadnaughts? If so can you point me in the direction of the page number?


Space Marine codex pg 133, lord of the armoury at the bottom, it isn't listed in the description page for some reason, lazy typewriters


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## Someguy

Motf let's you have dreads as heavy support. I think it's in his army list entry.


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## spike12225

Seeing this still going i'll chuck in some advice to fellow marine players don't build on balance a balanced list will do ok but never be a real contender.

Build a specific list where everything supports everything for example i ran chaplin termie assault squad redeemer and 2 vindicators in a spearhead supporting it was 2 typhoons 1 melta weapon tactical squad and a combat squad in rhinos to claim cleared objectives. At the back of field i have a cloaked scot sniper squad 7 man and a lascannon combat squad and a whirlwind to put holes in cover seeking enemy.

As you can see everything backs everything else up and has mobility to double back should they need to only thing that is stationary is deployment zone objective holders.

i ran this against a tyranid swarm list using the redeemer two plough through infantry squads to deliver termies to synapse warriors etc while typhoons went fex hunting vindies put holes in the swarms. 
He called game at turn 4 only had hive tryant left for synapse and i was about to charge. that with my remaining 4 terminators.


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## Frank

thanks to TheUnmarked & anarchyfever for the page numbers


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## space cowboy

My thoughts when first reading through the SM codex was how difficult Scouts could be to kill if cloaked and in a reinforced piece of 4+ cover (giving them a 2+ cover) and using Drop Pods on everything you buy, and then always going second where possible. These seem like the meanest things to do with a SM army, but I can't vouch for their effectiveness (or lack thereof) because I don't own enough drop pods nor scouts to test these theories.

If you couple these things with the idea of the 'stuff that supports the other stuff' theory that was mentioned earlier (possibly much earlier) in this thread, you could easily hold the couple of objectives you would have Scouts sitting on by having other threats running interference between the enemy and the Scouts.

The all drop pods, all the time idea was more just a thought about finding a way to completely waste one of your opponent's turns, since time always seems to be the most precious commodity in a game of 40k when I play it.

I like the army list posted at the top of this page, but I would look to make the Scout squad 10 men (as mentioned in the post) and then go with another 10-man Scout squad for the other troop choice. With the extra points I would drop pod all of my dreads. If I still needed points for the drop podding, I would drop the bike from the MotF (but only as a last resort.) I think that this strikes a good balance where your opponent will not have anything really worthwhile to shoot at on his first turn, then you drop half your dreads in, looking to kill their armor penetrating stuff first in order to clear the way for your other stuff. The Scouts can be split if you need the extra squads for objective purposes, and kept together for kill point purposes.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Sqwerlpunk

MotF needs the bike if he's using the Conversion Beamer, trust me, it makes him 10x more deadly.


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## space cowboy

Sqwerlpunk said:


> MotF needs the bike if he's using the Conversion Beamer, trust me, it makes him 10x more deadly.


Right, because of the ability to easily get into your Str 10 AP 1 range. What I am saying is that I would look at cutting that only as a last resort, and only if testing were to show that dropping Dreads into my enemies was more important than them walking on the board.

Thanks,
Howard


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## englanda

What is everybody's opinion on drop podding dreads? This is the list I'm trying:

HQ
Vulkan He'stan

Elites
Ironclad Dreadnought
2x Heavy Flamer (perhaps 1 Heavy Flamer and 1 Meltagun?)
*Drop Pod with Locator Beacon

Ironclad Dreadnought
2x Heavy Flamer
*Drop Pod

Troops
Vulkan's Tactical Squad (10)
Flamer, Multi-Melta, Power Fist
*Drop Pod

Tactical Squad (10)
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta, Power Fist
*Drop Pod

Tactical Squad (10)
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta, Power Fist
*Drop Pod

Fast
Land Speeder Squad (3)
Heavy Flamers, Multi-Meltas

The idea being to drop 2 Ironclads and a Tactical squad first turn, and depending what they have, either hiding the dreads behind the pods until they can assault, or dropping next to their squads and cooking them. It's had a lot of success versus horde orks and mech eldar, and since that's mostly what I play against, I guess that's a good thing. Of course, there always the hundreds of other marine players, but I think the amount of twin-linked AP1 should be decent against them. And in theory, this list shouldn't do too badly against lash, since it can nuke their DPs pretty easily, and get into combat with the obliteraters pretty quickly. 

Possible changes could be a 3rd dread instead of a tactical squad and attack bikes instead of land speeders.

Anyway, just thought I'd share a list with you guys that I've had more than a 25% win ratio with, which in my mind is pretty good for marines. :grin:


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## Andizzo

sorry if this has already been said but i kinda just skipped to the last page haha,
i think the new marines are geared towards you taking a special character like e.g pedro,vulkan etc, and have a supporting hq chosen form the generic ones e.g chapplain librarian etc. pick the characters traits and make your army choices towards them.

ive tryed out multiple set ups,
first was a pedro list, take pedro with sternguard sit back at closest objective and prep for the counter attack. i podded a dread in any of the variants do its mainly a distraction but with the beacon on the pod my assualtys and support hq(chappy) can come in safe and cause sum damage form behind. while on my edge i have a couple tac squads all 10 men with the two melta weapons, devs with lascannon and missile launcher loudout. depending on the points will see if i hav a pred or not. the idea is to hav that distraction move thier forces forward, their tanks will wanna hide form the dread and hopefully reveal themselves to the tac squads.

2nd tryed out a vulken list generaly same idea as first but more mech same atc squad lod out about 3 in rhinos move around poppin tanks, vulken runs with sterns in a razorback elite/tank hunting then take sum horde killy stuff e.g heavy bolter devs

3rd which is what i am trying out now is a shrike list shrike, he infiltrates with assualt squad and if pts allow attach a chappy to that say hello nasty re-roling killy real early, backed up by 2 podding dreads and deepstriking termys, then fill the troop slots how ever i can to be most efficient.

with the first to options i found the first 2 quite successfull, im finding the more marines i have the better my options, weve become an army were most people seem to rely on one super awsome unit try playing the advantages of the special characters its how we are ment to be played(in my eyes anyway)


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## lostprophet

This is a list that I built off of http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/02/my-vanilla-space-marines.html, so I can't take credit for it. I have had good luck with it so far and even when I lose is isn't a blow-out. I will be tweaking it when I get home from Iraq so I will let you know whats up. Also I have found that the Melta's are at this point a necessary item. 
2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

1 Master of the Forge @ 120 Pts
Artificer Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Converison Beamer

1 Dreadnought @ 120 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter; Extra Armor

1 Dreadnought @ 120 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter; Extra Armor

1 Dreadnought @ 120 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter; Extra Armor

1 Dreadnought @ 120 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter; Extra Armor

9 Tactical Squad @ 175 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

9 Tactical Squad @ 175 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

9 Tactical Squad @ 175 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

9 Tactical Squad @ 175 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

9 Tactical Squad @ 175 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [28] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs

1 Land Raider @ 260 Pts
Power of the Machine Spirit; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon (x2); Multi-Melta

1 Land Raider @ 260 Pts
Power of the Machine Spirit; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon (x2); Multi-Melta

Total Roster Cost: 1995


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## sooch

You're missing the speeders, which I feel are very necessary as ultra-mobile multimeltas for blocking enemy movement. By dropping the speeders and the multimeltas on the tacs as well as the rhinos, you've killed a lot of the strength of the army which is mobility. Tacs need rhinos as well.


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