# just a question about Empire



## xu- (Nov 8, 2009)

So I've decided to switch to a human army (Bretonnians or Empire), due to the fact that I make some pretty decent human-style buildings and I'd like a new reason to play with them. I'm leaning away from Bretonnians due to the fact that although I love the army, its not terribly versatile and I like an army that doesn't absolutely require cavalry (and I like the state army idea). So I've decided on Empire, and I wanted to know if there are any typical prejudices against Empire armies out there. I mean like, do people see them as a newb army, as a steamroller, or what? For example, I see a space marine army, and I'm just like, Jesus ****ing Christ more Space Marines. I know DoC and VC are often seen as an army people only use to win at all costs. Anything like this out there for Empire?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Nope, it's nothing like marines in fantasy. In fact, the only armies I've ever heard people go "oh no, not them again" about were daemons and VC, and even then, it's more because they're seen as powerful, rather than the fact you see them all the time.

They're really about as centre of the road as you can get in terms of play style, but they do offer the widest range of units of any army, so you can make some very different types of empire army. They aren't hugely powerful, and do need a bit of finesse to do well with, but that's the fun of the game right?

Anyway, hope that helps somewhat, good luck with collecting!


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

The only time I've heard any real complaints about Empire is for either a gunline with numerous cannons or the dual stank popemobile tourney combo, admittedly these are the 2 most potent types of army and often seen in tourneys but the Empire can be competative with most of its other builds as well.


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Empire are a great choice, i cant say ive ever heard any complaints about them. Like others have said VC get a bit of bad rep for over power, as do daemons though i will say i personally am sick of daemons as they are at least 25% of event armies these days and it gets old seeing them at everyone in such numbers. But other than daemons its all good.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Empire are awesome - Like IG used to be, with the right balance of artillery and troops. The fact that you're fighting Huge Plate Armoured Warriors with an Axe the size of the guy standing next to you with a piece of Tin Plate and an Eating knife just seems awesome.

Bretonnians have that 'Oh, give me 10 seconds to form charge' outlook that sees them win or lose.


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## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

A lot of people say that there all wimps.
I personally have to agree 
I have played the empire for a some time and i got sick of them really quickly. They may have a lot of choses but not a lot of them are very good. There shooting is amazing but thats it. All there CC units are only good to guard stuff like cannons. There magic is amazing so is there magic weapons. Sadly there highest weapon skill is 6 thats there lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Just my oppinion


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its at this point that I would wade in and point out the similarity between ogres and empire- the WS and LD of the 2 armies are (I think) totally identical for the various levels of troops through the army... and no-one would call a tyrant a wimp.

The difference is that ogres have multi wound/attacks and are T4... but empire have massive amounts of models, good magic, good shooting, better artillery (I dont count them as the same as shooting), occasionally have some armour worth mentioning but are T3... I admit that I get cannon envy (even my leadbelchers- ogres carrying a cannon each- just cant make up for it).


Ive always thought Bretonians are pretty much a 1 shot deal- if you cant deal with heavy cavalry you're dead... if you can you're laughing. Since I know both my HE and ogres will shread cavalry I'm not scared of facing them (although the only local Bret player will only ever use a Dwarf gunline against me...)


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## CoNnZ (Mar 28, 2009)

Empire are really good. Kinda similiar to IG with lots of guys and some really scary shooty things. Lucky my tomb kings out shoot most empire armies . Popemobiles are seriously scary when backed up by all the detachments, big blocks and troops and shooty stuff. They can play to almost any style due to their diversity.


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## Darker Days (Nov 30, 2009)

Empire is fun and has a good mix of units but you will be the guy crying, like you weren't already with the bretts, when Daemons and VC are put on the table. Honestly does GW have the worst play testers in the world? I would have to say drop those books and look at the rest of the armies and they seem in line with one another. sorry about the rant but GW needs to get there head out of ther arse.. Ten plastic Great Swordsmen $41.75 WTF.:angry:


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

Empire is my most used army and i have them all except TK, the thing i like about them is that they are very versital, but to make them work in the mode you pick them to be you have to have the right combo or they will just crumble. now if you want a foot army then you need to make sure you max out your heros with priests so you can make them unberakeable, but be sure to take a wiz lrd so you can burn out your apposers dis dice. but it still ends up to geting the right prayer off. i find that it works if you keep your core units tight so your priest can support eachother. now a shooting army is easeyer just be sure you watch for flankers. always wondered how the empier have a beter cannon than the dwarves? but teh G cannon is awsome, just rember to guess short, if your going agienst a hord army then max out with morters and the hellfire rocket, thats just a few opptions but you get the picture. have fun and after a few games you will find the right combos. once you start an empier army you almost never stop adding to them, come to think about it i still have to get the alter... and i had empire for 12 years so if you love colecting you never get board with this army.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

empire are great, if you don't want to win ever without taking some of the more boring combos already mentioned, and a army book where 50% of the units inside it are never worth taking, even just for fun.


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## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't like the empire but thats a little harsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They have some good units.
There knights have a great armor save

But they are looked upon as the biggest wimps in the game -- as all humans 
Which is exactly why i only play human armies!!!!!!!!!!!


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

I agree that is a little harsh, now i dont win all the time with them but they do there fair share of kicking butt. EVERY one in my group hate it when i play my gun line with the steam tank, so they must be doing somthing right..lol


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

stevenhassell said:


> EVERY one in my group hate it when i play my gun line with the steam tank, so they must be doing somthing right..lol


my point exactly


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I hate gun lines because the game is much more boring then normal- either you have an army that cant win, an army that cant lose or there is a huge amount of luck on one side or other... 

For example- if my ogres go against a cannon heavy empire army then they are toast (ogre characters rarely have "look out sir" protection... so it could be that all characters in a 2k battle die in the first round), but if it happens to be an ethereal based VC army then they are laughing.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

If you want to bring massed guns to a knife fight, let's just play 40k. Shooting in fantasy is supposed to cut out rank bonuses and generally reduce unit effectiveness, not wipe the enemy off the table. It's a support element in Fantasy... the game's not designed or balanced with it being a primary method of dealing with enemy units in mind.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

It may be a support element but how often do you see Empire, dwarf and to some extent woodelf gunlines. Its a support element for some a complete reliance for others.
I'm not advocating for gunlines Find them tedious whatever side of the field they're on and my Empire army relects this I was only trying to show that certain units work together and and others don't with the models he'd chosen a gunline was more viable than a dedicated fighting force and that a mix of the 2 only weakens the force as a whole.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Son of Horus said:


> the game's not designed or balanced


just leave it at those few words, they perfectly describe fantasy


neilbatte said:


> It may be a support element but how often do you see Empire, dwarf and to some extent woodelf gunlines.


every time I walk into GW (especially staff armies), although not wood elves, nobody wants to admit to doing them.


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

well the thing about the empire i love is that they are very versital you can have a gun line a fighting force, or both last game i did i had a both army and they kicked butt. you just have to get the right combo to make it work, ie losts of priests to make your fighters unbreakable. but i have ove 8 grand in points with my empire on of my bigest army so i can play it any way i want to, so if XU- is just starting out he needs to decide which way to play them and then biuld on that. as he collects more he can change it up.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Stella Cadente said:


> just leave it at those few words, they perfectly describe fantasy


That's really not true. Fantasy is much better balanced these days than 40k. And having dabbled in other systems, it's much more balanced and carefully playtested than most games in general.


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by The Son of Horus
> the game's not designed or balanced
> 
> just leave it at those few words, they perfectly describe fantasy


i disagree its not unbalanced you just need to find the right combo and you can beat any army with any army. but if your going to a tournament then you may find that it not so balanced as 40k (wich in my mind is a game of who rolls better) the best description of WFB to W40K is 40k is a game of tactics and Fantasy is a game of strategy. wich is why i perfer WFB over 40k but still love both games.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Son of Horus said:


> That's really not true. Fantasy is much better balanced these days than 40k. And having dabbled in other systems, it's much more balanced and carefully playtested than most games in general.


god no, Fantasy *needs* to have forced restrictions on the number of same units you can take, and allot need to be nerfed/made viable, it *needs* massive nerfing of characters and the core rules (especially magic) *needs* to be scrapped completely and started over.


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

good god!! you must of never played the older version back in the day but magic is soooo much smother than it use to be,, who here rembers the cards? uug, and there is restrictions on same units besides core units. so i dont know were your getting that comment from. but my last game of 40k i was wiped out by bane blades at the end of turn too. pie plates from hell killed all my eldar. now i know i should of spread them out more but not much you can do on a 4x4 with 2g in points, so 40k is way more unbalanced with all the new stuff they been puting out.


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## Fallen Angel Sammael (Jun 18, 2009)

I looked at Empire but I thought I am used to being a good guy, so I decided on chaos because of the cool models and all the diferent types of units you can have.........monsters.........


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

stevenhassell said:


> and there is restrictions on same units besides core units. so i dont know were your getting that comment from.


I mean limiting the number of copy paste units depending on the points limit, or forcing players to take certain units (like empire taking halberdiers, but it means GW have to actually make them worth taking), which would stop gunlines completely if your forced to take units other than shooting units and the number of shooting units is capped


stevenhassell said:


> but my last game of 40k i was wiped out by bane blades at the end of turn too. pie plates from hell killed all my eldar. now i know i should of spread them out more but not much you can do on a 4x4 with 2g in points, so 40k is way more unbalanced with all the new stuff they been puting out.


so you lost because he cheated (and you didn't check) or because you agreed to let him use that stuff?, thats not a good example.
super heavies can only be taken in 2500pts with a second detachment
super heavies and detachments require opponent permission
and since you said baneblade*s* (implying more than 1) I'd like to know what else he had taken since baneblades for basic 40k cost over 630pts each (thats 2 leman russ and 2 leman russ demolishers, which are far more useful).
also rather funny considering there the worst tank to take in basic 40k, especially for eldar and there armour reducing weaponry
lets just hope you didn't let him use Apoc stats and templates as well


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

yes i love the dragon ogers and is why i have a chaos army, from back in the day, then they looked like they were only a best men army choice, so i bought a huge beast men army, and sudenly my old choas was not right and the split them to mortals or deamons so i had to buy to make what i had in to resonable armys and sudanly i had huge armys in all three...lol did GW plan that.... knoing im a compulsive colector... grrr id have to say over the last 12 years i have over 30,000 spent in to GW minies.


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

> so you lost because he cheated or because you agreed to let him use that stuff?, thats not a good example.
> super heavies can only be taken in 2500pts with a second detachment
> super heavies and detachments require opponent permission
> and since you said baneblades (implying more than 1) I'd like to know what else he had taken since baneblades for basic 40k cost over 630pts each.
> also rather funny considering there the worst tank to take in basic 40k


may have been 3g it was last spring so its all kinda foggy, except that i was totaly wiped out, but i didnt question his army list, not an IG player, and he had a baine blade with balisik if i think back real hard but not sure if he had two baines or not.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I agree about 40k having elements of cheese. But as a general-rule, if you pitch your melta-spam Imperial Guard against your opponents Nidzilla, your still generally balanced, and still requires a large degree of skill to ensure victory.

Where as, nowadays in Fantasy, there still ways in whiche every army can be abused, even Empire, such as Gunlines, and a couple of STanks. But, there are armies that are inherently broken, basically they are ''already abused'' to put it simply, these armies generally require little tactics to win as they are already so powerful and have such a drastic lead over their opponents in certain phases. Generally speaking these armies are Daemons and Vampire counts. With the possible inclusion of Dark Elves, due to several seriously underpriced Magic Items, very powerful magic lore, and the ability to outcompete nearly every other army in all phases simultaneously.


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## Dragearen (Sep 8, 2009)

Simply how I fix the problem of cheese lists is, either...
A: Can I see your list? Okay. That's kind of cheesy, so I'll just field my own cheese.
B: That list is too cheesy. Would you mind making it a little less so(and if they don't, just don't play the match).
C: Give up and just play.

As you can tell, I only play friendly games.

I do agree with Stella that there should be a cap on how many types of each unit per certain amount of points, and going over that cap should be checked by your opponent, though some armies should have different caps(for example, Lizardmen. Terradons, Chameleons, Stegadon and Skinks are our only shooting units(we do have Salamanders and Razordons, but those count as war machines really), but ALL of those except for Skinks are expensive for a good-size unit, so Lizardmen should have more close-combat slots for example).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hmmm, was going to say that it would be good to add in an additional points cost for additional spam units (getting increasingly large each time you choose a certain unit).... it sounded like a good idea till I worked out it would kill MSU armies and reward deathstar players... big nono


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

On the original subject though I love my bretts dearly and personally think with the exception of the wood elf winter army they are the most beautiful army in the fantasy universe they are extremely 1 dimensional.

We get our asses handed to us in the magic and the shooting phase and it all relies on one thing. We have to get the charge otherwise we are boned. Empire on the other hand are a more balanced army that can be extremely nasty or very well balanced

Personally I agree with son of Horus on the balance of fantasy compared to 40k. In 40k there are some armies where you have to take certain combinations to be viable for example. The tau gunline is no longer a viable option and unless you take devilfishes you will really struggle, the nidzilla list is the most used nid list, whilst chaos marines have very specific units to choose from in order to remain competitive, ie beserkers daemon prince oblits.

Where as in fantasy I personally find there is more variety especially to the stronger armies such as vampire counts and chaos daemons and definitely dark and high elves. Plus the new skaven army book has made them a force to be reckoned with and I dont think that is set in stone, I can most certainly see variety of strong armies there.

I think that as GW revises some of the older army books, bretts tomb kings etc we will see a greater balance and I believe chaos warriors will set the standard. I believe we will we see the chaos warrior book matching and not exceeding the vampire counts book in potency then I believe we will see the standard for all the other army books. This will increase the balance as the revisions will make all of the books of a similar level.

Also I hope that the rumours of a new fantasy rulebook are true. Primarily because i believe that it will iron out some of the kinks in the existing rules and I do agree with stella that magic needs a complete overhall and possibly some more restrictions on shooting units need to be introduced.... however I cannot see this occuring in the fantasy rulebook unless they place a LOTR style 33% shooting units maximum which though bliss for my bretts would seriously clamp down on gunline armies. 

However whilst its a win on the gunlines vampire counts would be ever more powerful and wood elves weakened still further. I cant see such a dramatic overhall occuring or GW ever putting a block on 1 dimensional armies as it doenst really affect them. They still make sales and it would probably cause more moaning than celebaration

Plus one of the greatest joys of these games, for me ,is coming up against a list that is hard to beat and then trying hard to beat it. The struggle and the thought makes it worthwhile. For example I was young an naive and playing against a necron player (4th ed two monoliths) more experienced than me and generally better. He arse whipped me the first time and I thought and thought and came up with a list and I beat him. It was an awesome feeling so they may not be very interesting on paper or downright unfair in some situations but personally I'm not so bothered about ye olde cheese 

As for stellas comments about the empire I think thats true of all army books in the fantasy or 40k system. Some units just aren't worth taking when you look at other choices you have to offer. Assault marines in the space marine codex or chaos bikes in the chaos marine codex, for me at least mounted yeomen and men at arms just cant find a niche in my brett list.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

deathbringer said:


> As for stellas comments about the empire I think thats true of all army books in the fantasy or 40k system. Some units just aren't worth taking when you look at other choices you have to offer. Assault marines in the space marine codex or chaos bikes in the chaos marine codex, for me at least mounted yeomen and men at arms just cant find a niche in my brett list.


but thats only 2 units (that I personally liked using back when I did brets, I just bored of an army that can't lose), with empire there are almost as many units as there are in the book
*Spearmen* (in reality spears+cavalry=dead cavalry, in fantasy spears+cavalry=dead spearmen, this partly goes to help reinforce what I said about fantasy having no tactics, why bother when there is no incentive, in reality I would manouver spearmen to receive a charge from cavalry, in fantasy I may as well use swordsmen, they last longer)
*Halberdiers* (the empires main body of troops with a worthless save and no real advantage over anyone else, only ever really seen as detachments)
*Crossbowmen* (when put in comparison to handgunners why bother?, sure the range is great, but you may as well just spam handgunners instead of taking any crossbowmen)
*Greatswords* (yeah they look good on paper, but when you consider how much negates a 4+ save they soon become worthless, especially if charged by something nasty like 5 Chaos knights with lances and that khorne banner)
*Bowmen* (why bother?, 10 of them is gonna cost you 10 handgunners who will probably do better)
*free company* (still why bother?, even detachments wise there are better choices to have)
*Mortar* (why not just take a cannon?, its not like its gonna hit anything that often, and these days everything has too high a save to be threatened by it)
*Outriders* (worthless, nuff said)
*rocket thingy* (yeah just no)
I'd even include the *Knights* in most situations, unless there inner circle there just not worth it

at least bretonians have less useless units, even there *men at arms* aren't useless, there just not great, but there cheap enough to have in large numbers to make up for there weakness, and the mounted yeomen can be very useful at small flanking units, the only things I can see as pretty useless are damsels in an offensive role.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Well when you spell it out like that you most definitely have a strong argument that I really cant argue against

I do agree that spearman need to have more of a role against anti cavalry and I can definitely understand your frustration


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Ah for the DoW pikemen rules to be more widespread- I dont mean the fight in 4 ranks part (!!!) but the +1S when receiving a frontal cav charge would be nice on all spearmen.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Game balance should be determined between the players before the game not left to some unknown GW drone tapping away at a computer.
I generally play against the same group of people and we just let each other know before game what type of army were bringing.
If they want to test out a combo for a tourney they ask and I'll adjust my army accordingly (I'll see your cheese and raise you gouda)
If its just a freindly then I've an army for that to, at tourneys anything goes and for casual games against people I don't know then I'll go competative but not all out spam.
All it takes is either asking what type of force your facing and a quick adjustment or a rough glance at your opponents army and match it.
This works for all gw systems and makes playing a lot more fun than just seeing who can stink up the place the most.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

deathbringer said:


> I do agree that spearman need to have more of a role against anti cavalry and I can definitely understand your frustration


I just think all spearmen should get ASF against cavalry charging from the front arc, forces cavalry to actually maneuver to engage flanks, instead of just hitting the front and getting a zillion attacks


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Wouldnt really help unless its against lighter cavalry like marauders or actual light cav... HEs have ASF and 3 ranks of spears but still if you send in a unit of chaos knights I would be very lucky to do a wound to them (average 0.44 wounds if Im 5*3 with a champ, only goes up to 0.61 if Im 7*3 with champ.. which is all that will fit against a unint of 5 cav).


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Tim/Steve said:


> Wouldnt really help unless its against lighter cavalry like marauders or actual light cav... HEs have ASF and 3 ranks of spears but still if you send in a unit of chaos knights I would be very lucky to do a wound to them (average 0.44 wounds if Im 5*3 with a champ, only goes up to 0.61 if Im 7*3 with champ.. which is all that will fit against a unint of 5 cav).


still be better than nothing


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

> Spearmen (in reality spears+cavalry=dead cavalry, in fantasy spears+cavalry=dead spearmen, this partly goes to help reinforce what I said about fantasy having no tactics, why bother when there is no incentive, in reality I would manouver spearmen to receive a charge from cavalry, in fantasy I may as well use swordsmen, they last longer)


hey deathbringer uh i dont know what this guy is thinking but it sounds like he eather plays empire wrong or plays with some one that dosent know how to use them. empire is a co-suppoerting army, IE there sepcial rules are all about suporting eachother (state troops). stella sounds like his experance with empire is trying to run units spread out and not supporting eachother. 
hvy cav are the tanks of a battle feild and foot soldiers (spear men) are not meant to stand up to a havey cav unit. now if they are charged and have attatchment units to counter charge they may have a chance to stand up to a cav charge if you build the unit right. the tatic (that is in this game buy the bucket loads) is monuver your units so they can counter charge properly.



> Halberdiers (the empires main body of troops with a worthless save and no real advantage over anyone else, only ever really seen as detachments)


well a +1 strainth helps agienst thougher units like orcs and such. if not then it helps with a 1+ aromor pen. i use them as my core and they do very well, and ive been playing for almost 13 years.


> Crossbowmen (when put in comparison to handgunners why bother?, sure the range is great, but you may as well just spam handgunners instead of taking any crossbowmen)


the range is more than nice its pairamount! especualy if you get the first turn!



> Greatswords (yeah they look good on paper, but when you consider how much negates a 4+ save they soon become worthless, especially if charged by something nasty like 5 Chaos knights with lances and that khorne banner)


uh chaos knights...duh. the most expensive cav. in just about all the game, so the only thing that really stands up to them is uh.. chaos knights. luckly you want see much more than ten...all though i do have a unit of 15 khorn and ten nurgle but as of yet never feilded them both. i do have ten dragon ogers... i bet they would do good agients CK. but if you put a priest with you GS they tend to do better with the right prayer.



> Bowmen (why bother?, 10 of them is gonna cost you 10 handgunners who will probably do better)


ok agien make them huntsmen and deploy them forward than have them do the TACTIC thing and use them as marching inhibaters...hmmm 



> free company (still why bother?, even detachments wise there are better choices to have)


ok well he right there but what army dosent have their cannon fodder... so use them as such.



> Mortar (why not just take a cannon?, its not like its gonna hit anything that often, and these days everything has too high a save to be threatened by it)


WHAT!!, ok agienst armies like chaos, yes take a cannon but agienst the hord armies out there... USE THEM that big pie plate is just for that reason



> rocket thingy (yeah just no)


got to know how to guess range with it just combine your morter skills with your cannon skill and youll get good with practice. i love it case its a big pie plate str 5.



> Outriders (worthless, nuff said)


well i dont know what GW was thinking, it is frustrating that they are move or fire cav??? so i do have them but never realy take them... so hes right there.

in the end i have just about every army in the WFB feild (- TK) and empire is what i use 50% of the time they are a good army you just need to know how all the units work togather and make the right combanation to the army your fighting.

sorry about the spelling cant load the spell check on my work computer.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

stevenhassell said:


> hey deathbringer uh i dont know what this guy is thinking but it sounds like he eather plays empire wrong or plays with some one that dosent know how to use them. empire is a co-suppoerting army, IE there sepcial rules are all about suporting eachother (state troops). stella sounds like his experance with empire is trying to run units spread out and not supporting eachother.
> hvy cav are the tanks of a battle feild and foot soldiers (spear men) are not meant to stand up to a havey cav unit. now if they are charged and have attatchment units to counter charge they may have a chance to stand up to a cav charge if you build the unit right. the tatic (that is in this game buy the bucket loads) is monuver your units so they can counter charge properly.


yeah I do know how to use them, its just pointless to, round here the only armies are Chaos, VC and daemons, back when I actually played fantasy it was Chaos and VC and nothing else, against these I found detachments were practically worthless, in fact against VC there a huge disadvantage, a big enough skellie or zombie unit which is reinforced every chance possible can hold up 10000's of halberdiers and detachments, making all those pts spent on them worthless, and against Chaos your just throwiing them to there death, especially against a Khorne unit with 2 hand weapons, your weapons will bounce off while theres cut you to shreds, and your cavalry would of been long dead or now have no room to support your troops due to too many units being in the way, and by the time they get round its gonna be too late (one of the problems of fantasy being all about movement and positioning yet everything manouvers like a brick shit house)


stevenhassell said:


> well a +1 strainth helps agienst thougher units like orcs and such. if not then it helps with a 1+ aromor pen. i use them as my core and they do very well, and ive been playing for almost 13 years.


14yrs now for me, and yeah halberdiers are great, if nothing dies and you guarantee yourself the charge and if there supported by a charcter, cus otherwise that 6+ save is gonna bite you in the ass from even the most pathetic strengthed weapons.


stevenhassell said:


> the range is more than nice its pairamount! especualy if you get the first turn!


thats a big* if* for a unit costing 80pts minimum (assuming there not a detachment at the time), you may as well get the gunners, especially since your usually only 24" away anyway.


stevenhassell said:


> uh chaos knights...duh. the most expensive cav. in just about all the game, so the only thing that really stands up to them is uh.. chaos knights. luckly you want see much more than ten


most common I've seen is 2 units of 5 khorne knights, they hit anything just pack them up off the board


stevenhassell said:


> ok agien make them huntsmen and deploy them forward than have them do the TACTIC thing and use them as marching inhibaters...hmmm


marching inhibitors?, yeah right your enemy only has to do 1 of 3 things
1: ignore them and go around there marching inhibiting distance
2: kill them with a sneeze
3: both of the above


stevenhassell said:


> ok well he right there but what army dosent have their cannon fodder... so use them as such.


cannon fodder that can cause better units to flee?


stevenhassell said:


> WHAT!!, ok agienst armies like chaos, yes take a cannon but agienst the hord armies out there... USE THEM that big pie plate is just for that reason


what are these horde armies you speak of?, I have heard of them whispered in dark corners, but never once have I been fortunate enough to glimpse upon them


stevenhassell said:


> got to know how to guess range with it just combine your morter skills with your cannon skill and youll get good with practice. i love it case its a big pie plate str 5.


rather have the hellblaster, at least it might kill 1 or 2 blokes....that belong to the enemy, and doesn't scatter half a mile for its most accurate performance


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Tbh, Empire should be getting re-done early 2011 and with that should be at least competative again.

Either that or GW will prove their uselessness once and for all....


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