# Making Chaos Marines Work for GT



## Count Bathoria (Dec 8, 2008)

Completely inspired by Someguy and Vashteks loyalist Marine thread i would like to start one here for we, the fallen, to brainstorm up lists that would make it in a grand tournament setting. bear in mind that i want to do this WITHOUT lash of Submission, as it is easly way too over used. so whats out there? what have we got? what are your army list ideas? lets bring glory to the rest of chaos, not just dual lash princes.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Count Bathoria said:


> Completely inspired by Someguy and Vashteks loyalist Marine thread i would like to start one here for we, the fallen, to brainstorm up lists that would make it in a grand tournament setting. bear in mind that i want to do this WITHOUT lash of Submission, as it is easly way too over used. so whats out there? what have we got? what are your army list ideas? lets bring glory to the rest of chaos, not just dual lash princes.



I don't understand why you would want to make a GT list and cut out LoS. As far as I'm concerned, GT's are strictly Power-Gaming - if you want to do well you should probably do the same. Yes, you can make decent lists without using LoS... but, IMHO, LoS list do better than lists that don't utilize it. LoS is an ability that defines CSM, it's like telling Orks to make a GT list without using Power Klaws.

Anyways, /rant off

If I *HAD* to make a list without using LoS @ 1750, I would making a list as follows.

4 Squads of 7 Plague Marines (2 squads plasma 2 squads melta) /w Champs & Power Weapons + Rhinos
DP /w Wings, MoN, Nurgle Rot
DP /w Wings, MoS, Warptime
6 Obliterators

I'm not sure on exact points, I would most likely need to rearrange things & add/remove stuff but I know its darn close to 1750.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

los is the powergamer move of the year!


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

World Eater XII said:


> los is the powergamer move of the year!


Yup,

And whats better than bringing 1 LoS? Oh right, 2!


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

lol and people say chaos got nerfed...they did but up the decent end!


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

While twin lash may be a bitch to take out, it's definitely not impossible to beat. I'd say that twin lash may have a good chance at at GT (but it most likely will be expected). 

But I'd say that a good Khorne/Tzeench combo will be a very crazy list to play at a Grand Tournament. A Deamon Prince with Wings and the MoK is not something that your average squad wants to face one on one. Beserkers are a tough unit to face once it gets into combat, and are nasty with the combo of Land Raider IMO. 

Tzeench has the powers and the shooting, and Khorne has the Combat. It's a good, balanced list to make .


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

my fluff list is goin be a mix of tsons n zerks..well 1squad tsons lol.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Steel Nathan said:


> Beserkers are a tough unit to face once it gets into combat, and are nasty with the combo of Land Raider IMO.


True.

If only there was some way that you could get the enemy nearer, so you got into combat a turn earlier and isolated them from all their support.

The real power of lash is that it amplifies your other units. Your CC troops get into combat sooner, your templates hit more stuff, you don't get shot so much because enemy guns are out of position.

I can see why people would want to try and make a decent chaos list without lash. Lists with lash in are just better. If you have berzerkers and he has berzerkers, but only one of you has lash, that guy will always win 99 times out of 100. He gets to charge you, with +1A, S and I, and you die. 

Your HQs, without lash, cost more than his with it. You aren't saving any points you can spend on something better by replacing lash, because lash DPs are cheap. As much as you do to the rest of your list the lash guy has at least as many points spare to spend on his.


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## Refyougee (Nov 24, 2008)

I hope the OP is not surprised; artificially restricting yourself in GTs might win you some points in your head but the truth is no one else who wants to win it will care. LoS is simply too amazing to pass up.

That being said, if you want to go without the LoS because you think you have a more cost-efficient tactic, well, use it! However for C:SM I'm not sure if that exists. It is just too awesome; the ability to move your opponent's figures benefits ANY army, no matter what, and that is why you see the Lash showing everywhere. About the only innovation possible with an Uber-C:SM army is to come up with new ways to screw your opponent over with the Lash. I have to plan for it no matter what army I'm playing, and that usually involves going fully Mechanized or using Runes of Warding/Psychic Hood/Null Rod but those aren't available to every army.

Anywho, the benefits you get for spending 300 points on two DPs tend to outweigh anything else you can do with them and I'm certain that if they were elites instead people would field three.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

I see a lot of talk about positioning units in order to kill them better but with 2/3 games being objective based, I think the TRUE power of the lash lies in the ability to move units that are on objectives.

Oh whats that, one of your objectives contested, lash the opponent off of it. Oh, your opponent controls more objectives than you, lash a couple of them off.

The other way I find using is to move heavy weapons out of LoS, forcing them to move in order to gain back LoS and effectively taking them out of the game for 2+ turns. 

Yes Lash is awesome for making sure you get the charge, moving units out of cover, etc etc but it also has very strong uses that are not combat related.

In essence, denying your use of lash is simply being restrictive for the sake of restricting.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

I think that the general consencus here is that you'd be insane to make a CSM list without Lash.

There's a tactic peeps - take the Lash of Submission. You'd be insane not too, it's just too good!

Of course you could start the new and rather broken Space Marines. They are also rather good.


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## Count Bathoria (Dec 8, 2008)

look i have a chaos army, and i do not want to buy 2 deamon princes right now as i am buying a couple landraiders first! now you can all QUIT BITCHING or just don't post. frankly i don't care, i started this thread as a possible means to give chaos players a differnt persepective on our loveable spikey army, and show them that it is possible to build great lists without "you have no choice! Use Lash!" but just like when the codex came out in the first place, this sorry lot of chaos players chose to whine and bitch rather then attempt to think outside of the box. are intellects that low here? or are you just accustomed to whats easy vs other possibilitys. seriously people.


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## Count Bathoria (Dec 8, 2008)

now, in keeping with what this thread was SUPPOSED to accomplish i will post the fllowing list, and talk about its possibility's.

HQ

Deamon Prince- mark of nurgle, doombolt -140 points

Elites

5 Terminators - 5 combi-plasma- 175 points

5 Terminators - 5 combi-Melta- 175 points

5 Terminators - 5 combi-Melta- 175 points

Troops

10 Plague Marines - 2 plasmaguns,personal Icon -265 points

10 Chaos Marines- Champ with Power sword, Icon of Chaos Glory- 190 points

10 Chaos Marines- Champ with Power Sword , Icon of Chaos Glory- 190 points

Heavy

Landraider - 220 points

Landriader- 220 points

Now, the landraiders 1st job is to be a delivery system for almost the whole army, 1st turn both landriaders packing the squads of vannila marines charges forward at full speed and pop smoke, the plagues move to nearest objective that is in or near cover and sit, if there isn't one the follow the landraiders with deamon prince. landraiders will be drawing most of the fire as people tend to freak out about 14 armor...don't know why... and if not they'll be targeting the prince, which is also a good thing. next turn DEEPSTRIKE terminators into enemy lines off icons, kill maim and generally make things go BOOM. move raiders up 6" and launch assaults with CSM's plagues should begin pelting heavier armored foes such as terminators or meganobs with plasma.

in the event of facing a horde army, stay stationary. begin suppressive fire with landraiders/CSM's/plague marines/deamon prince. land terminators behind units that will cause problems I.E. hive tyrants/ battlewagons loaded with orks/ leman russ tanks ECT and light them up. in the case of clearing objectives of pesky infantry tank shock is your friend!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Count Bathoria said:


> look i have a chaos army, and i do not want to buy 2 deamon princes right now as i am buying a couple landraiders first! now you can all QUIT BITCHING or just don't post. frankly i don't care, i started this thread as a possible means to give chaos players a differnt persepective on our loveable spikey army, and show them that it is possible to build great lists without "you have no choice! Use Lash!" but just like when the codex came out in the first place, this sorry lot of chaos players chose to whine and bitch rather then attempt to think outside of the box. are intellects that low here? or are you just accustomed to whats easy vs other possibilitys. seriously people.


That's out of line.

I've looked through the replies to your original post and there was n bitching. There were just a lot of people saying that Lash is the best choice.

As far as "low intellects" go, you should be aware that at least one guy who was a previous GT best general has already replied to you, with well-intentioned advice. When you throw back insults in his face, it is not him who looks stupid.

I want to know what you have against lash. You said originally:



Count Bathoria said:


> Completely inspired by Someguy and Vashteks loyalist Marine thread i would like to start one here for we, the fallen, to brainstorm up lists that would make it in a grand tournament setting. bear in mind that i want to do this WITHOUT lash of Submission, as it is easly way too over used. so whats out there? what have we got? what are your army list ideas? lets bring glory to the rest of chaos, not just dual lash princes.


Now the first thing I'd say here is that this thread is not like the one about making marines work. Why not? Because Chaos does work. 5 CSM lists in the top 10 at heat 3. Many chaos lists doing well in all tournaments all year. Contrast that with marines who totally failed, with only a handful even qualifying in the UK and the best placed marine guy at Baltimore on 57 points for generalship (with the top score being 100). The premise for the marine thread was to see if we could get a functional marine strategy, where we know that Chaos don't need anything more.

You are saying "I want to win despite not taking the best unit available to me". You need to explain why that is.


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## Count Bathoria (Dec 8, 2008)

you are correct, my first reply post was completely out of line and to all of you i apologies. my absolute hatred for lash of submission isn't from the spell its from having to listen to people constantly complaining about it at my store, when i've only done it once and only with a single prince. so rather then listen to the insesint whining of a bunch of 20+ year olds going on 3, i'd rather swap the tactics up. yet without the ability i tend to not be able to scratch the opposing armies. I am certain i am not alone in this, as not many like to win a game and then feel like an ass because your opponent is a poor sport. i would go with just not playing agenst them but the next nearest game store is about 100 miles south, and frankly....making that trip is impossible. I would play agenst a Dual Lashing army any day to stop the egotistical, win at all costs, cheating, A type personalities that are my game gruop from bitching and all around making the game no fun at all.

I started this thread to Ineffect, gain list idea's that don't use the lash, are competative, and will silence the temper-tantrums and bawling of a few bad sports. I guess to compair it to Vashtek and Someguys post was off as marines suffer a different problem. the reason for the list having to be GT quality is due to my own high standards, as i require all my lists to {hopefully} be GT worthy . Again to everyone who posted here, or was reading this thread and took offence or was otherwise turned afront by my earlier post, i apologize and am Sorry.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

By some weird quirk of my local gaming shop, I'm the only CSM player that goes there regularly, and the only other guy that played CSM switched to Nerkons. I certainly see why you don't want to use Lash. I've used it maybe three or four times this past semester, and have been bitched at because of it. Granted, it's exceptionally powerful for a psychic power, and I would daresay it's the most consistent and powerful power for Chaos psykers, as opposed to the fantastic selection offered by the Librarians. The problem you have arises with the fact that tournaments are an exercise in powergaming, no matter your hobby (I do FNM once in a while, and play at the dorm). But to be competitive requires the use of the best abilities and units available, and Lash just happens to fit the bill, let alone tossing it on a Prince. People can bitch at you all they want, but you need to remember that GW gave you the tool, so you use it or look for a substitute in your list.

Mind you, GW also gave away Orbital Bombardment, which is a game changer whenever it hits, even if that's just 1/3 of the time.

This list is not really practical, but I like the idea of playing a 2500 point game with no intention on anything other than killing.

HQ
Chaos Lord- Terminator Armor, Mark of Khorne, Blood Feeder 
Kharn

Troops
3x 8 Khorne Berzerkers- Champion with Power Weapon
2x 10 CSM- Heavy Bolter

Elites
2x 10 Chosen- 2 power weapons, asp champ, MoK

Heavy Support
3x Land Raider

Daemons
Blood Thirster

Kibbies in Raiders, Chosen for tying up and killing, aspiring champions for Daemon Positioning, and the Land Raiders can just fire their lascannons if they have to. And the CSM's just take points and be pretty.

I doubt this would ever be more than fun for me, but that's just how I like to play.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The issue of people complaining about your list a difficult one. I do get where you are coming from. The problem is, it isn't necessarily going to be fixed by removing lash, as lash isn't the only thing that people complain about.

People will be annoyed if you repeatedly obliterate them in games where they have no real chance of winning. If you are a competitive tournament player and you show up at a GW for random games, you really can only expect one result. You will have used up two hours of your time, and your opponent's, and at least one of you probably hasn't had fun.

I think you need to look at the exercise of replacing lash with something equally effective. Is that going to make you and your opponent have fun, or will it just mean you are trouncing them in a different way?

I ran into this problem myself a few years ago, towards the end of 3rd edition. I had a very effective alaitoc ranger force that was able to do some very nasty things to people. At GTs, it had never failed to massacre (20-0) a marine army of any variety, and once suffered a total of 6 casualties in the course of massacring 3 opponents in a day at a GT final. 

It took me a little while to realise that there was really no point in me using this army in non-competitive settings. At my club we had a group of hardcore GT players and then a lot of "nice people" who played in a much more relaxed way. It just didn't work when we mixed, and that wasn't really good for any of us.

In the end I decided to make a second army that I could use in casual play against nice people, so I made a Tau army (at a time when Tau really weren't rated). I found them to be lot of fun to use and very different to anything else out there at the time. I got to exercise my nasty competitive side to try and get even a vaguely functional Tau force, able to live with stuff like five rhinos full of space puppies rushing towards me, but it was also an army that other people could play against and have a good game. Very glad I did it.

So anyway, I reckon you might want to make a bigger change than just to your HQ if you find that people bitch about how you play. Maybe it really is just lash that they dislike, but if you are a tourney player in a club full of casuals, you need to work out a way to get on with them all.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Someguy said:


> The issue of people complaining about your list a difficult one. I do get where you are coming from. The problem is, it isn't necessarily going to be fixed by removing lash, as lash isn't the only thing that people complain about.
> 
> People will be annoyed if you repeatedly obliterate them in games where they have no real chance of winning. If you are a competitive tournament player and you show up at a GW for random games, you really can only expect one result. You will have used up two hours of your time, and your opponent's, and at least one of you probably hasn't had fun.
> 
> ...


QFT. I am the exact same way at my store, and so I'm starting marines (both balanced and "competitive" flavors) so that I can stop pissing people off with my nidzilla. You hit the nail on the head with that one.


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

There are some non-cheese list configurations better than 2 lash DP.

2 DP - wings, MoN

squads of PM in rhinos, either flamer/melta

raptors

obliterators


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## Count Bathoria (Dec 8, 2008)

the problem is almost 100% my play group. of the 4 of us, 2 of us have to win at all costs including going so far as to change the way rules read in the BRB so that the situation comes out ontop for them. if anything is giving them the slightest difficulty to deal with the complain to the high heavens, until its gone. no games agenst them are fun, and i can't exclusivly play the other guy. they would be perfectly happy if we showed up, set our models down, then sat back and did nothing the hole game.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Cato Sicarius said:


> I think that the general consencus here is that you'd be insane to make a CSM list without Lash.


I'd disagree with this. My personal favorite philosophy when designing a list for competition is what I like to think of as "messing with the metagame." As Someguy pointed out, CSM are strong on the tourny scene lately, and the DP build is very well known. The list is crazy strong, but it is not unbeatable, and everybody who qualifies is going to have some units to counter the dual lash, or at the very least have played the list a few times and have a semblance of a plan already formed. 

Of course the problem here is that the common lists are common for a reason: they're just too damn good. Still, this philosophy served me well in MTG tournies. And if you are dead set on ignoring a very strong skill, having a philosophy behind the decision can help you in making a new list that actually works, not just a protest list that's gonna get good comp scores then get stomped.



> There's a tactic peeps - take the Lash of Submission. You'd be insane not too, it's just too good!


In a one off highly competitive game, yes. In a tournament settings where everybody is gunning for your list....tossing them a curve ball could pay off.


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

I agree with Othiem.

Try something like plague marines with a non-lash DP, some raptors, and some defilers/predators.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Othiem said:


> I'd disagree with this. My personal favorite philosophy when designing a list for competition is what I like to think of as "messing with the metagame." As Someguy pointed out, CSM are strong on the tourny scene lately, and the DP build is very well known. The list is crazy strong, but it is not unbeatable, and everybody who qualifies is going to have some units to counter the dual lash, or at the very least have played the list a few times and have a semblance of a plan already formed.
> 
> Of course the problem here is that the common lists are common for a reason: they're just too damn good. Still, this philosophy served me well in MTG tournies. And if you are dead set on ignoring a very strong skill, having a philosophy behind the decision can help you in making a new list that actually works, not just a protest list that's gonna get good comp scores then get stomped.
> 
> ...


Its even better to play Lash AND toss a curve ball.

IE: Play Lash, but with a twist.... Something maybe unconventional. However, they are cookie cutter builds for a reason.


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

Any ideas about something unconventional with lash?

You could try. . . a doughnut of death (a circle of vehilces, lash enemy inside the circle and blow them to bits).


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Djokovic said:


> Any ideas about something unconventional with lash?
> 
> You could try. . . a doughnut of death (a circle of vehilces, lash enemy inside the circle and blow them to bits).


heh.... ha... BWAHAHAHA... oh man that sounds totally awesome. I can imagine sticking termies in a Land Raider (or two), shoot the enemy with all the tanks, and assault with the termies to finsh off the job. 

Heh, Lash really bites sometimes :laugh:.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

hmm, ok so we're attempting non lash built lash lists now? if thats the case i might recommend this?

HQ 

Sorcerer Lord w/ terminator armor, MoS, LoS - 140 

Sorcerer Lord w/ terminator armor, MoS, LoS - 140 

ELITES

4 Terminators w/ MoS, 3 pairs of LC, 1 Heavy flamer, 1 PF - 180 

4 Terminators w/ MoS, 3 pairs of LC, 1 Heavy flamer, 1 PF - 180 

TROOPS

10 CSM's - 150

10 CSM's - 150

8 CSM's - 120

HEAVY

Landraider -220

Landraider - 220 

atleast thats my idea on it. the troops are there solely to take objectives and return supressive fire if need be, where as the real hammer will be the 2 sorcerers with each squad of termies in a landraider. basically focus's on a CC win here.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

alright so if you want to run a list without lash you are gonna have to lay off the vanilla CSM. The cult troops are much better for their points so i see no reason not to add them. The concept of Tzeench and Khorne sounds pretty solid to me.

I would probably take 2 DP with MoT, wings, warp time, and WoC. This gives you the solid rock of an HQ but no lash. This can also work against horde or 1v1 battles. 

As for troops try something like 2 of each cult troop (2 8x zerker squads and 2 9x TSons). This gives you a strong option for both CC and shooting. With their 4+ inv just run the TSons in open ground while shooting. Load the zerkers into rhinos or LR.

Finally add in some more fire power with oblits and a lone defiler.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

So far from what I've seen of the non lash lists, the combination of Khorne Berzerkers and Tsons looks like a contender. It combines good chopping with good dakka. The Princes with the Mark of Tzeentch and Wings are really good for their points cost. I can't count how many times that better invul save kept him going in the face of railguns. Warptime is fantastic, and I have made my Prince use the bolt of change (read Hadouken) to pimp on a vindicator until his wings got him into combat with it. 

Another fun idea I had a while back had to do with using Chosen. Essentially, you take two squads with an Icon in each, a but ton of lesser daemons, and make them tie up infantry. Whether or not it would work is completely up in the air, I just thought it was a fun idea. Also, you can take a greater daemon your army, and give the Chosen aspiring champions for sacrifices.


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## liefmike (Aug 5, 2008)

Lesser daemons get a bad rap, but I love them. There is nothing better the running a rhino with a full squad, parking it by an objective, dropping the daemons, and then running off to kill the rest of the enemy. They are weak against high shot volume, but the invuln save is money.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sieg said:


> alright so if you want to run a list without lash you are gonna have to lay off the vanilla CSM. The cult troops are much better for their points so i see no reason not to add them. The concept of Tzeench and Khorne sounds pretty solid to me.
> 
> I would probably take 2 DP with MoT, wings, warp time, and WoC. This gives you the solid rock of an HQ but no lash. This can also work against horde or 1v1 battles.
> 
> ...



It's funny because I can always tell the new players of chaos from the old ones. New guys will try to maximize vanilla without gear. Older players just take the good troops.

In response to the other idea regaurding sorcerors, it's not a curveball, dp's are just -better- in almost every single way and have the flying anti-tank we desperately need. The only curveball you can throw and be competitive is having a nurgle prince with warptime, or a tzeentch one with warptime and wind of chaos. That's...really it. 
And they all suffer the exact same flaw as the slaaneshi prince, which is anti-psykers, and a massive amount of tanks(As most psychic powers aren't worth using or have no effect on them.)

The list is written as is for a reason. You can change a few things around, but the lashing princes are what make it so damn powerful.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> It's funny because I can always tell the new players of chaos from the old ones. New guys will try to maximize vanilla without gear. Older players just take the good troops.


I completly agree. It seems that every new player feels the need to take 3-4 vanilla squads for their troops. I dont know why this fad has come around but it really needs to stop. 

Also, i completly agree about the fact DP are just strictly better then a sorc. Whether or not you like it, you need 2 DP to make a solid GT list, but they dont need to be lash.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

see, i do not agree with getting rid of Vanilla marines, and the reasoning behind this is that most people i have played with that i have feilded a lot of the Generic CSM's have been playing horde armys and anyting above a CSM has proven not only over kill, but as taken away from needed upgrades to deal with the imposing pressance of an army of maxed out Guant or Ork squads. now i agree that Cult Marines, particularly thousand sons and plague marines, out class CSM's but tey don't take their place completely, as you cannot put a plague marine in terminator armor. nore can you give a Berzerker squad 4 lascannons. in short even with the superiority of the cultist troopers, its almost impossible to deny that CSM's have a place in the army. after all, they are cheaper then generic marines, and trade "ATSKNF" for better stock weaponry and LD value. to say that you can tell who's been playing how long based off what CSM's being included in a ChAOS SPACE MARINE list is utterly wrong and rediculous. Seriously, if you can't get by using just CSM's then your tactical prowess need strengthening badly.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

The problem I have right now with my vanilla CSM army is that they are just too general of a unit. I get out pew pew'd by Tau, and out melee'd by assault armies like the Blood Angels. A veteran friend of mine did a Marine army like it's supposed to be, and he has problems winning matches because of not being specialized, which is why he'll be making a Tyranid Army. What I see in this game is that you must pick a field of combat and center around it, which is what the cult troops are for. Tsons and Noise Marines are better at shooting, zerks are amazing melee, and plague marines just don't die. It comes down to options and points cost. They all have their place, but by specializing it comes down to you getting your opponent to play in your theater of combat.

As a side note on the daemons, taking 1k worth the points of the little buggers to sit on points or assault may be unconventional, but against ranged armies it may be gold on turn 2.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm not trying to be offensive when I clarify some of these above points, I'm just trying to help all chaos players get over the hump of choosing bad units and wondering why they lost.




Syko515 said:


> see, i do not agree with getting rid of Vanilla marines, and the reasoning behind this is that most people i have played with that i have feilded a lot of the Generic CSM's have been playing horde armys and anyting above a CSM has proven not only over kill, but as taken away from needed upgrades to deal with the imposing pressance of an army of maxed out Guant or Ork squads.


First it'd help if you did a rough draft of your posts first, perhaps highlighting the stronger arguments and opinions behind each note. I've been known to rant but it gets us nowhere fast hahah...anyway.

Basic chaos marines, are horrible. They have no place in any list besides point-capturer and even they screw up that job. They are highly unreliable(no ATSKNF), they die like marines(Lots of stuff is geared to kill ap3 t4 doods in this galaxy), and they don't specialize enough to beat any counterpart.

They aren't shooty enough to kill an ork horde before it crushes them in CC, and they aren't tough enough in CC to survive gaunts charging. They are a BAD choice for anything besides grabbing points.



Syko515 said:


> now i agree that Cult Marines, particularly thousand sons and plague marines, out class CSM's but tey don't take their place completely, as you cannot put a plague marine in terminator armor. nore can you give a Berzerker squad 4 lascannons. in short even with the superiority of the cultist troopers, its almost impossible to deny that CSM's have a place in the army. after all, they are cheaper then generic marines, and trade "ATSKNF" for better stock weaponry and LD value.


First, we're talking about the vanilla marine "Chaos space marine squad" in the troops section. Terminators are a nice fun choice, and I don't tell people to avoid them. But I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way.

Zerks don't need expensive(useless) four-man lascannon teams. They MURDER things in close combat. That's their job.

It's quite easy to make a GT winning list without using a single generic marine, actually. And they are not cheaper than generic marines. A five man squad of marines, with leader, costs ninety points. A five man squad of chaos(with leader) costs the same. Trading ATSKNF for weapons and LD is a pretty crap trade. ATSKNF is an AMAZING skill! You come back from anything and cheat leadership tests in CC. Who cares for an extra CC weapon if you're being charged by banshees?



Syko515 said:


> to say that you can tell who's been playing how long based off what CSM's being included in a ChAOS SPACE MARINE list is utterly wrong and rediculous. Seriously, if you can't get by using just CSM's then your tactical prowess need strengthening badly.


It's completely true and factual. Noobs choose bad chaos choices. Hell when I started, I'd do the same thing and argue til I was blue in the face that our tac squads beat god troops. I was wrong. Our tac troops are bad. They don't excel in any one job to beat any other troop out there of equal points. -That's- what makes them bad. Why have a "do anything poorly" troop that dies to everything when I can have "buckwin" berzerkers running around scaring the tar out of dedicated assault troops.

And if you can't get by using just CSM, you need to lern2codex and go get the real troops. If you're getting by using generics(en masse) than you're playing bad people. I'm unsure of how this is a contested point, by the time you buy the troops and icon, they're just 20 points less than the cult brethren(who outclass them exponentially)


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Lesser daemons get a bad rap, but I love them. There is nothing better the running a rhino with a full squad, parking it by an objective, dropping the daemons, and then running off to kill the rest of the enemy. They are weak against high shot volume, but the invuln save is money.


Lesser daemons are ASS, period. One point less than a basic marine for something that might or might not show up when you need it, has no ranged ability, and a shitty 5+ inv save is not a good value. You are far better off going with basic marines than lesser daemons. Now the Greater Daemon is a nice buy for its cost, no doubt.

I do have to disagree with you slightly Waffles as I think that csm's do have a place in the army, mainly as objective grabbers and/or extra firepower/melee in times of need. You are right that the Cult troops are vastly better but the basic chaos marine is not a bad buy really, especially if given an icon to alter their abilites.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Lesser daemons are ASS, period. One point less than a basic marine for something that might or might not show up when you need it, has no ranged ability, and a shitty 5+ inv save is not a good value. You are far better off going with basic marines than lesser daemons. Now the Greater Daemon is a nice buy for its cost, no doubt.
> 
> I do have to disagree with you slightly Waffles as I think that csm's do have a place in the army, mainly as objective grabbers and/or extra firepower/melee in times of need. You are right that the Cult troops are vastly better but the basic chaos marine is not a bad buy really, especially if given an icon to alter their abilites.


And I said "Unless used in minimum squads as objective grabbers" with cult troops you shouldn't need extra firepower or melee as basic marines don't really have either. Why buy a plasma gun for a squad that's supposed to be sitting on objectives? Why buy a power fist for a single model that'll run you 55 points when the base squad is only worth 75 points to start with?

Giving them an icon makes them nearly as expensive as a cult troop. Without fearless. No thanks.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

One thing that cult troops also give you is far more efficiency with upgrades relative to normal marines, because they pay the same points for them but get far more out of them.

A zerker skull champ costs as much (as an upgrade) as a CSM champ, and pays as much for his power wep. However, he has +1 WS, +1 attack and furious charge. He's far, far more dangerous. On the charge he easily kills 2 or 3 MEQs by himself, when the CSM kills 1, and usually drops them before they get to strike back. 

This, and the rest of the squad striking at initiative 5 as well, mean that zerkers are actually quite difficult to kill in cc, because it's difficult to kill the other guy when you are already dead. I've actually been very impressed by how my unit of 8 zerkers can charge something like a unit of 20 orks and massacre them all with only one or two losses. That then means it's more likely that the zerker gets to charge another time and use his power wep again, and so on.

The other thing affecting the efficiency of upgrades is that cult troops are more specialised. The zerker squad is only interested in being in CC, so you are going to get it into CC if you can. A CSM squad may often want to fire its bolters at something, which prevents a charge and keeps the champ from using his power wep. If it does charge then you aren't using the all those guns you paid for.

Efficient use of points creates powerful armies. Cheap =/= Efficient. The best way to get efficiency is to have units that are very good at one thing and have them do it all the time. That isn't aactually possible in real games and you do have to compromise by having some versatile units, like obliterators, that theoretically aren't as efficient as something like havocs with lascannons would be. However, it underlines the greatness of lash, because by facilitating other units it improves the efficiency of your whole army. You want your zerkers in CC and your Tsons firing at MEQs in the open, but not in CC. Lash makes this happen. 

Generalist troops like generic CSMs are the opposite of this. They are good at nothing and can do anything at any time, badly. They don't particularly reward good play because they don't have a lot that you can get out of them. "Should I send them against the horde they can't hope to beat or take pot shots at the MCs?" No, you should have taken something else.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

After reading about all this regular CSM bashing, I feel I have to comment.
I agree that the Cult troops are better than the regular CSMs. But I know of players who got tired of just charging headlong with Berzerkers, and tried new armies, say like Tau. The CSM is not a 'replacement', its another option. 

Some players may like the general CSM regardless of their ranking on the 'Uber-meter'. Fluff and background may be the driving force behind someone's 'Red Corsairs'. There'll probably be very little Berzerkers or Plague marines in the list, but so what? I have fun in 99% of my 40k games because I can field my Chaos army with a good variety of choices. Good tabletop tactics even with 'mediocre' CSMs has won me many victories against many a Power-gamers' armies.

Let the Galaxy Burn!!

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

i understand where u are coming from, but this is a thread about a GT, not about fluffy casual armies and when it comes down to it, vanillas are just not worth it.

if you see a GT list with more then 1 squad of vanilla CSM and they explain their use and dont include the phrase "for sitting on the home objective in cover" then they shouldnt be at the GT to begin with. 

Cult troops are the way to go for a GT, end of story


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

your only chance will be bye getting a lash dp


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

did you just seriously ruin this discussion by saying that? Is that why you have -9 rep, because you do this on a consistent basis?

That comment about a DP is completly irreverent to the current argument AND we are talking about GT list WITHOUT a lash prince.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

first, to Sieg, the above post is funny, a bit mean, but funny lmao.

to the rest of you, it seems quite the conversation has been landsliding without me! 

to Waffles, I am a newer Chaos player, i started chaos back a little before the current codex came out. i do not know much of the old codex or the way things where, however i have been playing 40k for about 3 or 4 years now, mostly marines. i know CSM's severly lack ability without ATSKNF,the fun point here being that where i play it really matters little what troop choice i play. the armies i end up facing as so pumped full of anti-MEQ weaponry that nothing ever gets an armor save. berzerkers tend to be piles of moosh before making it to combat, with out something to propel them faster the grav-tank armies of the tau and eldar just float around them all day. Plague marines become usless without FnP. and Noise Marines collapse to their own tunes. AND when you pout a CSM in a building suddenly his cover save is equal to that of the T sons, for less points, and granted without that fancy bolter. i understand the uses and abilities of all the cult troops, and i have found that their all good in their place.Currently I myself am Building a Thousand Sons army, as i've given in and love the fluff to such extremities that i'm willing to shell out the cash. I have found using lists of straight CSM's to a bit detrimental, as sure, they do not have what SM's have and they aren't as good as Cultists, but thats what makes them harder to play, and more challenging. your all right when you say they have no place at a GT. but for Honing tactics and attempting new things in a game i find they are Ideal.

in short, if you wish to improove upon Just your Tactical ablities { mind you this is not a jab at anyone here, just something i found helps me out} then play a game agenst a friends best army list with straight CSM's. see what you can do, and i hope you'll find that at the end your slightly amazed in a possitive way.


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## Coffeemug (Jan 4, 2008)

I am not a chaos player but my buddy is. He recently decided to build a list w/o los because he wanted to challenge himself i guess. 
I don't have points costs but hes runnig

3x7 man squads of plague marines w/ PF MG transported in 3 land raiders
4 man termi squad with no upgrades in a land raider
1 flying DP with warp time (i think... the one that lest you re-roll, right)
2 CC dreds

This army fits in 2000 pts and he hasn't had any trouble walking over any army.
His first test game was against tau( the land raider killers ) and he had no trouble.

I call this his dickhead army because there isnt much out there that can deal with 4 landraiders in 5-6 turns

I duno try it some one, tell me if its jut my group that cant deal with this.

Heck we've built lists specifically to beat this and haven't beaten this yet.

tactically he just stays inside his raiders until one pops and hides his dreads and prince behind them until the right opportunity comes.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

That's an interesting list there Coffeemug. If it is, then there is not much in there that can deal any real damage to the opponent's units. (Edit: Just saw that the 3 Plague Marines had LR's themselves.) Those Termies are good, but what happens if the LR blows up? Those termies are without upgrades, therefore screwed. 

I like the 2 CC dreads though. The only problem with that though is that 1/3 of the time, you would get a roll at the beginning of each turn that you don't want. You sure don't want the one where you are forced to shoot, and you sure as hell don't want the one where you are forced to move as close as possible to the nearest enemy. While the latter may be ok for the 1st turn or so, it may not be good half way through the game, where they would run out in the open and get shot by heavy weapons of death. 

I see merit in that style of list though (although I guess that's kinda bad for you :laugh.


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

Steel Nathan said:


> ...Those Termies are good, but what happens if the LR blows up? Those termies are without upgrades, therefore screwed.
> 
> ...and you sure as hell don't want the one where you are forced to move as close as possible to the nearest enemy. While the latter may be ok for the 1st turn or so, it may not be good half way through the game, where they would run out in the open and get shot by heavy weapons of death. ..


Uh Termies are still strong without upgrades, though better with them.

I think anything which will draw fire away from the LRs is good in this list. Killing 4 LRs should not be the hardest thing around, though definitely not easy. There was a 6LR list floating around for 'ard boys. Dunno if it showed up and/or how it did.

I think a heavy horde army with plenty of power klaws would do well against this list as there is so few guns to take enough of them down.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

newsun said:


> Uh Termies are still strong without upgrades, though better with them.


While that is true, you'd be a fool not to take one of the Icons. If you want a cheap one, then just buy the Icon of Undivided, that way they won't at least run away when they fail their LD test (there's only 4 Termies, so killing one forces him to take a LD test anyways).


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

so i think that we were getting a tad off topic again but i think it ended at a good point:

What is the best mark for CSM Termi's?

Personally i think that the slaenesh(sp?) one is pretty useless in this case. I think that khorne is pretty good for smaller squads. Anything with more then 5 models i think it should be left to one of the other 2. Any thoughts?


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

i would have to agree her with Sieg, as small squads of Khorne Terminators are rather nasty, but larger squads benefit mor from survivablity over mass attacks {not the techno band} prefering Tzeentch here over nurgle, due to better invulnerable save. people see terminators and every plasmagun gets turned on them which gets past the T5 but not the 4+ save.


on a side note, where the hell did this guy go? he started the thread and left? no comments from him?


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Sieg said:


> so i think that we were getting a tad off topic again but i think it ended at a good point:
> 
> What is the best mark for CSM Termi's?
> 
> Personally i think that the slaenesh(sp?) one is pretty useless in this case. I think that khorne is pretty good for smaller squads. Anything with more then 5 models i think it should be left to one of the other 2. Any thoughts?


I think it entirely depends on what you're planning on doing with them. If you want to leave them behind and shoot with them, or to engage walkers and other armor, then Mk of Tzeentch is good, because of th 4+ invuln. Supporting the rest of your infantry, Mk of Nurgle is good for the added toughness bonus. If the majority of what you fight are guard, orks, necrons, etc, then Khorne, all the way. However, if most of your opponents are marines, then Mk of Slaanesh and lightning claws are really hard to beat. It's quite possible to wipe a squad of enemy terminators off the board or those nasty power weapon toting sternguard/vanguard (I can never remember which one it is) with a squad of termi champs with LC's and the Mk of Slaanesh before they can even swing back.

It's all about niche-filling. Marks give us at least a little control in filling those niches that other armies have dedicated units for.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

Wraithian said:


> I think it entirely depends on what you're planning on doing with them. If you want to leave them behind and shoot with them, or to engage walkers and other armor, then Mk of Tzeentch is good, because of th 4+ invuln. Supporting the rest of your infantry, Mk of Nurgle is good for the added toughness bonus. If the majority of what you fight are guard, orks, necrons, etc, then Khorne, all the way. However, if most of your opponents are marines, then Mk of Slaanesh and lightning claws are really hard to beat. It's quite possible to wipe a squad of enemy terminators off the board or those nasty power weapon toting sternguard/vanguard (I can never remember which one it is) with a squad of termi champs with LC's and the Mk of Slaanesh before they can even swing back.
> 
> It's all about niche-filling. Marks give us at least a little control in filling those niches that other armies have dedicated units for.


a lot of times tho you dont want to kill the opponent in the first turn. You want to stay locked for one turn so that you dont get shot up after you kill a squad. That has a lot to do with why you would want small squads of khorne, you want to cripple the opponents squad but not kill it.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Which, you can also do with small squads of Slaanesh. The point being, you hit first, thus reducing the amount of powercrap coming back on your head. Staying locked in combat is fine, and you are correct, it certainly has it's place. My point was though that each mark has it's place, even Slaanesh. If you stay locked with even a handful of power weapon chosen/sternguard, that's much less that will be striking you in return, increasing your own survivability, versus hitting a full squad and striking at equal initiative.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

Wraithian said:


> Which, you can also do with small squads of Slaanesh. The point being, you hit first, thus reducing the amount of powercrap coming back on your head. Staying locked in combat is fine, and you are correct, it certainly has it's place. My point was though that each mark has it's place, even Slaanesh. If you stay locked with even a handful of power weapon chosen/sternguard, that's much less that will be striking you in return, increasing your own survivability, versus hitting a full squad and striking at equal initiative.


Very strong points. Maybe its just how i use my termis that i wouldn't normally get locked with a foe that i wasnt certain that i could defeat. I can see how in some situations slaanesh could be helpful. 

I personally use Tzeentch (for fluffy reasons) and they seem to work out pretty well.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Sieg said:


> Very strong points. Maybe its just how i use my termis that i wouldn't normally get locked with a foe that i wasnt certain that i could defeat. I can see how in some situations slaanesh could be helpful.
> 
> I personally use Tzeentch (for fluffy reasons) and they seem to work out pretty well.


I gear my shooty termi's up as Tzeentch. I dig 'em also. :biggrin:


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

i use mine as tank hunters mostly. I give most of them pwr fist and make one a champ and give him claws. The 2+/4+ usually means they can make it through combat pretty well if they get locked some how, and TSons dont have much in the way of anti tank so they seem to work well with the rest of my army.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Oh geez, I'm working on an article for this exact purpose... man I hate repeating myself :grin:. 

I personally think that the Tzeench and the Slaanesh Icons work the best for the Terminators. The Tzeench is by far the best defensive mark to obtain for the Termies, that way you can run up and bash the shit out of the more better units, while they'll get a better invunerable save to defend themselves from the nasty attacks of the advanced units. 

The Slaanesh one, however, is an Icon meant to face off against basic Marines, or tie against the better units. The raised Initiative really helps the Terminators square off better against the other faster units, that way they at least have equal chance of damaging the enemy.

Those are my two (literally ) cents.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

yea, the more i think about it, the more useless the nurgle mark for a termi seems. This is just because anything that is a true threat (AP 1 or 2) has S7 or more. That means that it will wound on a 2 against either T4 or T5. All the nurgle mark does is make a fairly resistant model even tougher to be brought down by basic guns such as bolters. But if you think about it, unless their back is really up against a wall who spends say 2 turns shooting with 2-3 squads of marines to bring down some termis?


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Sieg said:


> But if you think about it, unless their back is really up against a wall who spends say 2 turns shooting with 2-3 squads of marines to bring down some termis?


Honestly, if you think about it, that probably would happen to any Terminator Squad with any Icon. Maybe the Icon of Undivided has a better chance of staying still, rather then failing the LD test from the first try after two Termies dies.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

but when people start dropping vindi shells or rapid fire plasma guns, you are gonna want the 4+ inv, the nurgle mark probably isnt worth the points


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## Refyougee (Nov 24, 2008)

I think the Mark of Nurgle needs to be considered a bit more in CC; against Power Weapons the extra toughness will definitely come in handy.

At range though, I agree that its uses are limited at best and are only really worth it against weapons that are S <7 and AP1-2. Those are quite limited in number.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Refyougee said:


> At range though, I agree that its uses are limited at best and are only really worth it against weapons that are S <7 and AP1-2. Those are quite limited in number.


That is excatly true and well said! 

Bottom line, if your Termies are meant for attacking strong units (remember that this is for the GT, thus a take all comers list) then don't even consider the Icon of Nurgle. Anything else can work perfectly in a tourny list, well, maybe not the Icon of Undivided .


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Steel Nathan said:


> That is excatly true and well said!
> 
> Bottom line, if your Termies are meant for attacking strong units (remember that this is for the GT, thus a take all comers list) then don't even consider the Icon of Nurgle. Anything else can work perfectly in a tourny list, well, maybe not the Icon of Undivided .


Agreed. With such a high leadership value, failing Ld tests is generally the least of my concerns when facing my terminators against a threat. I truly feel that if there was one mark that honestly has no place in a tourney list, it's the Mark of Undivided. Maybe for squads you *know* are going to be seriously out classed, so any leadership boon helps, but uh... I have a hard time gearing/equipping my boys towards losing.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

Wraithian said:


> Agreed. With such a high leadership value, failing Ld tests is generally the least of my concerns when facing my terminators against a threat. I truly feel that if there was one mark that honestly has no place in a tourney list, it's the Mark of Undivided. Maybe for squads you *know* are going to be seriously out classed, so any leadership boon helps, but uh... I have a hard time gearing/equipping my boys towards losing.


HAHAHAHA!!! I completly agree. If you need to reroll the moral then u are loosing any way and going into a GT you should be planning on winning, not losing.

On a different note now, what about raptors? Personally i dont use them and it doesnt really seem like any one does. Also, when listing the "bad" units in our codex people dont seem to mention the lil guys. Any thoughts on the subject? Are they "just ok" aka they are fine for a casual game but should be left on the shelf for a GT?


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

personally, after having played BA's, Raptors are equal to their covetted VAS's. that being said, in this edition of the codex they lost Infiltrate{ i belive} which makes them nice, but not enough. on that note, i prefer bikers with an icon of tzeentch. a first turn turbo boost to set up for a controlled terminator drop? priceless when used agenst a dark angels player. as for GT, i'd have to say that everything in the FAST ATTACK slot should just sit home...right next to defilers....and dreadnoughts...and possessed....and spawn if your not using gifts of chaos....and at this point where everyone seems to be dual daemon prince users i'd say leaving lord and sorcerers home might help too...


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

Can someone post the cookie cutter lash build?


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

i think it is up in the GT forum. Since this is about making a good list without lash i would feel wrong about posting the list here


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> as for GT, i'd have to say that everything in the FAST ATTACK slot should just sit home...right next to defilers....and dreadnoughts...and possessed....and spawn if your not using gifts of chaos....and at this point where everyone seems to be dual daemon prince users i'd say leaving lord and sorcerers home might help too...


So, are you saying no to defilers? I just can't get over the 72" range of the Battlecannon. If you are in the corner and have LOS, then almost nobody can hit you from that distance. I guess there is the problem of staying 72" away, but still the S8, large blast template and/or the ability to fleet with several S10 DCC weapons is nice. If you want to keep your distance then a defiler will help out.

I do see the problem with the large silhouette(s) so everybody will take aim at it, but if you have a bunch of rhinos charging in, full of nastiness, then you force your opponent to shoot at one or the other. Either they kill your defiler(s) or pop a rhino or so. At the end of their first turn, you are still capable of dealing lots of damage.

As far as rhinos go, I'm not sure how useful a fully mobile army is in a GT. Things like Orks, Tyranids, Space Wolves (does anybody play them in GT?) you'll want them to come to you, so you kind of wasted at least 35 pts per mobile squad. Also quick armies like DE, Speed Freaks, or Deamons, you may have no chance to use them since they will be on you before you could've gotten to them. But for many other situations, having mobility would be beneficial.

If rhinos are not a bad idea, then may I recommend an army with Noise Marines (or Plague Marines), Berzerkers, and a CSM squad with a heavy weapon or two special weapons all in rhinos, or possibly a LR or two, followed closely by vindicator which will wait until it's within 24" then it can spread out and by the blasting begin. With some of the other points, possibly a defiler or 2 to provide CC or long range support.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

the reasons behind my saying to "leave your defiler home" are, firstly Its a HUGE target and doesn't have the armor to make up for it. if i see a defiler on the feild agenst me i know i have an easy kill point waiting for me. Second, the battle cannon is str 8 ap3 sure and the range is nice, but its only an meq killer. what about meganobs and terminators? zoanthropes? or hell, some one drops a monolith on you and your str 9 lascannons just can't quite scratch it fast enough. IMHO vindicators trump the defiler, and for a cheaper points cost. their more survivable with a better front armor, their blast is stronger, if shorter in range {but this can be taken care up by moving sligtly}, and they themselves present your foe with a muhc smaller target, which can easily be obscured. with deiflers, there always one angle where they aren''t obscured from fire do to their large gaudy size and cumbersome build.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

What are your opinions on Nurgle bikers? I know that bikers as a whole are pretty bad for chaos but i cant help but wonder how well a T6 biker would do.

Has anyone seen these guys in action?


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Again, they're good against certain units, but they are not invincible. All the opponent needs is a few lascannons and missiles (plasma even works well) and they're screwed. Of course, bikers intend to be turbo boosting, which gives us the cover save and may protect us early on. But when the bikers actually start shooting, it won't take long to shoot them down with pratically anything. Some units/weapons may struggle to take them down, but seriously, there's only going to be 5 of them in a squad. 

Personally no, I've never seen them in action, so I can't say that they're actually good, but really, they should do better then the average biker. If your opponent is the kind that fire his bolters and such at the bikers while they advance, he'll have a hell of a time taking out these guys (again, not impossible). If I actually do see them in action, I'll know how the fair against other armies. 

But to be honest, they can't be that great. You never see them in any tourny list anyways :laugh:.


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

They would be one heck of a tarpit unit though, just turbo boost them and then tarpit probably the rest of the game.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> the reasons behind my saying to "leave your defiler home" are, firstly Its a HUGE target and doesn't have the armor to make up for it. if i see a defiler on the feild agenst me i know i have an easy kill point waiting for me. Second, the battle cannon is str 8 ap3 sure and the range is nice, but its only an meq killer. what about meganobs and terminators? zoanthropes? or hell, some one drops a monolith on you and your str 9 lascannons just can't quite scratch it fast enough. IMHO vindicators trump the defiler, and for a cheaper points cost. their more survivable with a better front armor, their blast is stronger, if shorter in range {but this can be taken care up by moving sligtly}, and they themselves present your foe with a muhc smaller target, which can easily be obscured. with deiflers, there always one angle where they aren''t obscured from fire do to their large gaudy size and cumbersome build.


There are other threads that discuss the cost/benefit analysis of defilers vs. vindicators and it never really reaches an outstanding victory for vindicators. Lets say that your opponent does have some TEq. The defiler wasn't meant to handle them; it was meant to take out MEq or weaker. It's like saying you shouldn't have brought a spoon to dinner since it can't cut your steak. Ok, a vindicator would have been more helpful in this situation, but a defiler is useful more often. For example, the defiler didn't have to move much in order to fire on the first turn most likely.

A big reason I'm for using defilers is that they are great at taking out infantry and since troops are very important on most missions, taking them out is high priority. The defiler is better at attacking infantry than a vindicator since it is a walker. If an opponent moves something like vanilla SM or CSM, even krak grenades have a chance at immobilizing or disarming a vindicator. A defiler will probably instant death anything it wounds as well as has a big gun. It will be able try and crush some meganobs if it must, before an eventual PK death, but a vindicator would just stand there and take it. Yes heavy infantry cause an issue for defilers, but they are a problem for mostly any unit that goes up against them. Plus, most TEq are not troop choices, so therefore are not scoring.

As for a DSing monolith, as you mentioned, if it is behind your lines, then both vehicles probably won't get front armor against it, but don't forget that the defiler does have fleet and dreadnought close combat weapons. If the monolith is within 13-18 inches of the spider, then the monolith very well may be a pile of metal next turn. Sure the vindicator has a 24" range, but it gets one shot while a defiler has at least 3.

Yes, the defiler has quite the silhouette, but if you are also have rhinos, then that distraction during the first round of firing might be enough to allow your troops to get within assault range. It is something to think about and not discard so lightly.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

it is proper food for thought i suppose, but you still did not make mention of exactly how weak the defiler is when it comes to armor, and that is its highest detriment point for point with the vindicator. a Vindicator is a smaller target and it is extremely simple to keep the front armor facing enemy gun lines preventing an easy kill, where as the defiler sticks out like a sore thumb and can be brought down easily by str 8 weaponry. Further more, 90% of the troops your charging with this piece of armor contains a powerfist some where in it, which is the equvalent to a krak missle in CC. do i think the defiler has a place on the feild of battle? sure, in friendly game's where you don't mind giving up a kill point, take the defiler. but as far as anything tournament, where people play for competative reasons and bring not but their A game to the table, leave it on the shelf as it will cost you dearly early on.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> you still did not make mention of exactly how weak the defiler is when it comes to armor, and that is its highest detriment point for point with the vindicator. a Vindicator is a smaller target and it is extremely simple to keep the front armor facing enemy gun lines preventing an easy kill, where as the defiler sticks out like a sore thumb and can be brought down easily by str 8 weaponry. Further more, 90% of the troops your charging with this piece of armor contains a powerfist some where in it, which is the equvalent to a krak missle in CC. do i think the defiler has a place on the feild of battle? sure, in friendly game's where you don't mind giving up a kill point, take the defiler. but as far as anything tournament, where people play for competative reasons and bring not but their A game to the table, leave it on the shelf as it will cost you dearly early on.


First of all, thanks for discussing this further with me.

As far as stronger armor goes, we are talking about 1 point front armor. But the Defiler has 12 side armor as well which is 1 higher than the side armor of the vindicator by one point. This means that the average armor value for the "front" of both works out to be 12 (ignoring the backs of course). As you approach, you will expose your side armor at some point and that 12 armor value will be more helpful than the 11 provided by the vindicator. Seeing as the vindicator only has a 24" weapon, it will have to get close enough that it's side armor is likely to be exposed. If you are using similar tactics with the defiler, there is no "weak side" except for the back which is the same for both.

I must reiterate that attracting attention from all of your opponents ranged anti-tank (quite possibly even ending with the end of the defiler) is a valid option. By being like an annoying klaxon that everybody wants to turn off, you allow for your troop transports to advance relatively unscathed. This can be a reason to use the defiler. Although not a very strong "tank," it will at least provoke lots of "aggro" which can be incorporated into your tactics.

Although you haven't really harped on this much, the "more expensive defiler" is probably only 5 points more, since, as far as I know, most people will put daemonic possession on the vindicator (getting as many turns of firing as possible).

One other point I want to bring up is that the defiler can also act as a rear guard. If used in this way, most turns will be spent firing its pie plates far down field. Any infiltrating troops will have to deal with the DCCW's and/or a large blast template. Being Relentless _and_ having Fleet is quite useful in this position.

So in conclusion, the defiler must be at the very least _considered_ due to it's versatility as: a (albeit less armored) close range MEq destroyer, a very attractive meat shield, a rear guard, and probably some other uses that I didn't mentioned yet.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

if you guys dont mind, please leave this argument to the other (maybe even 2) threads about this. Overall tho, it is usually assumed that the vindicator is more versatile and thus a more solid option for a tournament scene. 

so my next topic for you all to think about:
chosen

so what do you all think about them? Infiltrate has made them very sneaky and decked out with full meltas or plasmas or even flamers can really put the hurt in a target area. So are they worth it? And if so do they get a mark and which one?


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Although I'm not exactly sure how the vindicator is more "versatile" seeing the only tactic you can use are charge in and shot the big cannon, I'll let it go.

I'm not really sure if Greater Daemons are kosher, but if you have one of those, then definitely have an un-upgraded aspiring champ in there to be the sacrifice. It really depends what the rest of your army is in order to determine what special weapons you want to give them. I would avoid using MoN since it is very expensive but doesn't provide _that_ much benefit to an other regular troop. If you have any deepstriking units, then giving this unit an icon is very important as well.

One possible option could be to use them like Space Wolves scouts by giving them a bunch of PW and try to tie up important squads in cc while the rest of your army approaches.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sieg said:


> if you guys dont mind, please leave this argument to the other (maybe even 2) threads about this. Overall tho, it is usually assumed that the vindicator is more versatile and thus a more solid option for a tournament scene.
> 
> so my next topic for you all to think about:
> chosen
> ...


Defilers are situationally useful and sometimes point effective. Vindis are always useful and always point effective.

Chosen squads are good for outflanking with lots of guns, if you dedicate them as much of anything else, they will fail you as a troop. Four meltas and a powersomething champ makes for a low-cost deadly incision-like troop that rarely fails to disapoint.

Using them as a forward attack party is unfortunately wasteful outside of apoc. They don't need marks unless you want to give them an icon of glory for termi-summoning duty.

They're worth it to take a small cheap squad full of pain and strike an enemy where it'll hurt. Flamers work to pile on wounds(lootas), while meltas are better overall for killing tanks, mcs, jerks, and terminators.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

here i have to agree, to an extent. I wouldn't take Chosen if terminators where a viable option instead. i may take a squad if i need to deep stike terminators in, and use them augment this, but i tend to find turbo-boosted bikers do this better. as far as using them for mobile havoc squad's and outflanking? i suppose it would work, i haven't tryed it myself, but then i also tend to run 3 squads of 5 terminators....


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