# Questions about the Legions: General info and specifics



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

*Death Guard*
1.Prior to the nurgle infection, what were the death guards speciality? I know every legion had a speciality, guerilla, stealth, psychological warare, etc. But what was the death guards?

2. I've heard the death guard were very resilliant and tough, was this pertaining to just drinking poisons, or to damage as well? Did they heal fast, get sick, in comparison to oher astartes how much tougher were they?

3. The deathguard primarch, how does he look? I've only ever seen pictures of him with his mask and robotic looking suit on, does he have to wear this at all times or can he take it off?

4. Did the death guard primarch have any special abilities, powers? Like russ's psyker immunity/ressiliance, haunters psyker telekenitic shockwave, corax invisibility, etc. How strong was he in combat?

5. Prior to nurgles infection, what were the deathguard doing in the heresey? What was their role? 

6. How did they get infected in the warp? Did the geller field fail? How did nurgle get into the ships? And how did nurgle infect them, if he could forcefully infect and turn themcould not nurgle do this to every legion?


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Read Flight of the Eisenstein.

Basically they were always resilience type guys, immunising themselves to poisons and such to better survive harsh environs.

Mortarion is described as being tall and gaunt, with pale skin if I remember correctly. I cannot remember if he has any particular abilities though.

As I understand it, Mortarion sided with Horus and his ideals, believing the Emperor to have failed/betrayed them. Nurgle took advantage of a failed gellar field on their ships to make sure they would serve him... permanently.


This is all guesswork based on my loose memory of Eisenstein. If I`m wrong, other heretics correct me.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Lux said:


> *Death Guard*
> 1.Prior to the nurgle infection, what were the death guards speciality? I know every legion had a speciality, guerilla, stealth, psychological warare, etc. But what was the death guards?
> 
> They were the relentless tough guys, that used massed tactical advance to win. They did not have many tanks or specialist troops
> ...


Hope that helps answer what you want, If you like deathguard do read flight of the Eisenstein though it goes into far more detail and Garro is and awesome character


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Thank you both for the replys, I have more questions pertaining to other legions.

*Luna Wolves*
1. What was the luna wolves speciality? So dg was mass tactical advance, and use of mass infantry, what was theluna wolves speciality of war or style they excelled in?

2. How big was the luna wolves legion in comparison to the others?

3. Did horus have any special abilities? Like corax invisibility, haunters tk wave, russ psyker immunity etc.

4. How proficient was horus in one versus one combat? I've read several sources about this, in one horus himself states that four primarchs bested him in combat, while haunter is an unknown since he states he didn't train him or with him, so potentially five primarchs his one vs one combat superior? In another source, by corax, he states that perhaps only sang or horus could defeat anron, when horus thought corax was one of the four primarchs his superior in duels.

5. How tactically intelligent was horus? Could he out strategize alpharius/omegron?

6. What was his wargear? What weapons, what type of armor?

Also what was moratorions (dg primarch) wargear? Powerarmor, term armor? What weapons, accesories, etc.

7. What was horus style of combat, his preference? Both in strategic command of his legion and in one vs one?

8. How profecient were the lunar wolves in ship to shp combat?


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

as to the question of Mortarion with pyschic abilities, he frowned upon powers of the warp as seen in A Thousand Son. One of the few legions who did not have librarians. I mean even the worlds eaters had librarians at one point.



Lux said:


> Thank you both for the replys, I have more questions pertaining to other legions.
> 
> *Luna Wolves*
> 1. What was the luna wolves speciality? So dg was mass tactical advance, and use of mass infantry, what was theluna wolves speciality of war or style they excelled in?
> ...


Hopes this helps, however I'm sure there is more information out there amongst the others in this heresy populace that could probably be a little more specific.:victory:


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lux said:


> *Luna Wolves*
> 2. How big was the luna wolves legion in comparison to the others?


We* know* that the Ultramarines were the largest Legion by a wide margin, we *know* that the Word Bearers were te second biggest Legion- we can only guess though regarding the size of the Luna Wolves, but as crawford said it makes sense that Horus' Legion was amongst the biggest, they were the favoured Legion and Horus would have used all his influence to ensure they were as mighty and numerous as possible.


In regards to Legions in general they nearly all had a counter part Legion that had a similar M.O (or at least that's how Horus manipulated them to get better results in the Great Crusade), such as the Blood Angels & World Eaters, the Iron Warriors & Imperial Fists, the Salamanders & Death Guard etc


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The salamanders and deathguard were counterparts? In what way.

What were all the legions counterparts?


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Lux said:


> The salamanders and deathguard were counterparts? In what way.
> 
> What were all the legions counterparts?


Mostly via rivalries between primarchs.

Magnus vs. Russ

Alpharius/Omegon vs. Roboute Guilliman

Perturabo vs. Rogal Dorn

Fulgrim vs. Ferrus Manus...though that was a more tragic example than anything.

Angron vs. Sanguinius...though to be more accurate it's probably the Blood Angels vs. Khorne

I'm not sure about the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders though. All three legions were practically destroyed in the Dropsite Massacre and didn't see much fighting afterwards.

As for the Word Bearers and Night Lords; given the preference for senseless brutality from the latter and the zealotry of the former even before turning to Chaos I'm hard-pressed to think of anyone liked either of them. Konrad Curze seemed as if he was corrupted from the start and his legion had turned rogue before the Heresy even began. Lorgar was easy to turn once his "God" scolded him.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

salamanders and death guard can be looked as chapters that believe in toughening the body. death guard by chemichals and salamanders with fire/branding


----------



## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

> 1.Prior to the nurgle infection, what were the death guards speciality? I know every legion had a speciality, guerilla, stealth, psychological warare, etc. But what was the death guards?



Also the Death Guard were used as siege breakers. As Dorn was known for building of forts, they were known for the taking down of of said forts.


It was believed that Mortarion was well pissed off that Dorn had the praise for being the ultimate siege builder and destroyer. And thought his Legion was over looked by the big E.

I also read some where that Horus knew this and to help him turn Mortarion to his side he sent his legion to every tough fort worlds which took months of back breaking work to take the forts down, which in turn once they got in to the fort they just run riot and destroyed everything and one. 

Though to keep him on said Horus was making out that these orders were coming from his father which in the long run made it easier for Mortarion to be turn.

This was taken from memory from one of the Index Astartes and other fluff. books which i read when they first came out. Which is quite long ago. ut as accurate as i could remember


Hope this helps a bit.


----------



## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

CaptainLoken said:


> Also the Death Guard were used as siege breakers. As Dorn was known for building of forts, they were known for the taking down of of said forts.
> 
> 
> It was believed that Mortarion was well pissed off that Dorn had the praise for being the ultimate siege builder and destroyer. And thought his Legion was over looked by the big E.
> ...


That sounds more like something that would fit Perturabo, to be honest :\


----------



## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> As for the Word Bearers and Night Lords; given the preference for senseless brutality from the latter and the zealotry of the former even before turning to Chaos I'm hard-pressed to think of anyone liked either of them. Konrad Curze seemed as if he was corrupted from the start and his legion had turned rogue before the Heresy even began. Lorgar was easy to turn once his "God" scolded him.


of course I have no rivals, noone can even start to compare themselves to _ME_! Also, if they did rival me, they would be no more, so I obviosly have no rivals, I end all threats to my greatness!:laugh:


----------



## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Primarch Lorgar said:


> of course I have no rivals, noone can even start to compare themselves to _ME_! Also, if they did rival me, they would be no more, so I obviosly have no rivals, I end all threats to my greatness!:laugh:


Then why did The Emperor prefer Guilliman to Lorgar?


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I was speaking of rivalries that were apparent pre-Heresy, Horus would often alert a Legion of it's rival's successes in recent battles/wars with the psychologically crude intention of making the Legion strive harder to bypass the achievements of their rival.


----------



## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

Cruor99 said:


> That sounds more like something that would fit Perturabo, to be honest :


Ah yeah you may be right there pal.


The joys of working nights. After no sleep in 24hrs my head is in the shed...


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

These answers have been very informative, I am thrilled to learn so very much!

I have a new batch of questions now!

*Emperor's Children*
1. What were the Emperor's children speciality of war/combat? What was it they superior in above all the other legions in specifics to war? IE alpha legion was infiltration/indirect combat, luna wolves was rapid spear headed assault, etc etc.

2. Did Fulgrim have any special psyker abilities like some of the other primarchs? TK blast, invisibility, pre-cognition, etc.

3. What was Fulgrim's wargear load out? Did he use power armor, terminator armor, what was his prefered weapon/weapons, and armor type? 

4. What kind of general was Fulgrim and how did he stack up in comparison to the other primarchs in terms of tactical genius? 

5. How did fulgrim stack up to the other primarchs in terms of 1 versus 1 combat? What kind of fighter was he in 1 v 1? How strong, how fast, what was his fighting style? 

5b. If you were to rank Fulgrim 1-20 with 1 being highest, how well he did in 1v1 combat, where would you put him?

6. How did Fulgrim look in appearance?

7. What was the mirror image/counterpart to the Emperor's children? (did they have one?). IE both ravenguard and nightlords are commando based armies, while ultramarines and word bearers are bother heavily centralized convential armies, etc etc. Who was there opposite?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

#1 Fulgrim was a perfectionist, not much else I know although he wasn't the best at anything. They had a similar fighting style to ultramarines from what I remember.

#2 No.

#3 Artificer armor, Fireblade and later a Daemon weapon.

#4 He was good, maybe 4th or 5th.

#5 Tbh he would have lost to Manus if the daemon hadn't saved his ass.

#5b It would be out of 18 and maybe 9, 13 on a bad day.

#6 Tall, obviously, white hair and handsome.

#7 TBH they fought like ultramarines.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The emperor's children were actually raised up by the luna wolves as their legion started off small due to a disaster. In my opinion their skills and strategy might have been a little more influenced by horus and his luna wolves. otherwise I agree with everything else said


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah but they didn't really utilize the fast spearhead style and with the perfectionist aspect it sounded more ultramarines to be but that could be so.


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> salamanders and death guard can be looked as chapters that believe in toughening the body. death guard by chemichals and salamanders with fire/branding


I believe Imperial Fists are into using the pain-glove which pretty much overloads the nerves with pain...I guess it was their way of meditating



as for what you said about Horus being the master at close-combat (Second to the Emperor) I believe Leman Russ had beat him in close combat once, but I forgot when


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Why is it in one source horus states 3-4 bested him in combat before? Could anyone name the primarchs he listed?

I know sang, and russ were two of them, who were the others?

Also I've heard that fulgrim disliked power armor is this true? Did he use a lighter type of armor or a custom power armor?


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

As fulgrim became more corrupted he discarded more of his armour, to the point he appeared like an 18th century rake. Fulgrim was all about the grace of combat so relied more on dexterity than blocky armour.

You can add Constantin Valdor, head custodian, to your list of who beat Horus 1 on 1


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

What is your source for that?


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I saw it in another primarch thread I read through, it had citation forpage number and book, but it was a very old thread so I dontrecall its name.

Which is why I'm asking if anyone knows the source I'm speaking of, it was when horus was talking about how he trained all the primarchs in the theatre of war and combat, except korad. And thatof all he trained only 3-4 bested him in close combat, of which I remember sang and russ were two of the names, the other two I don't recall.

And as the above poster stated that custodes beat him too


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hippypancake said:


> I believe Imperial Fists are into using the pain-glove which pretty much overloads the nerves with pain...I guess it was their way of meditating


They use the pain glove as a way of concentrating and tool to learn from their mistakes. In the Imperial Fists novel it was almost used as punishment from higher authority and sometimes even themselves. While the salamanders and death guard embraced pain to destroy their bodies and get tougher.



Lux said:


> Why is it in one source horus states 3-4 bested him in combat before? Could anyone name the primarchs he listed?
> 
> I know sang, and russ were two of them, who were the others?


_



Chief amongst the primarchs is Horus, the first and *strongest* and to the Emperor like a son. He is Warmaster, the commander and chief of all the Emperor's military might, the subjugator of a thousand worlds and conquerer of the galaxy. *He is without peer as a warrior, save maybe the Emperor himself.*

Click to expand...

__Collected Visions Page 9_


I'd be careful of what you find in the web. I think that you probably found information just buffering those primarchs. Which is indeed fine because both are recent Primarchs who's chapters have had new codex's and both have had new BL books written about their chapters/legions. Even if you sketch through this forum you'll find polls which favor those two and some more redicolously more than they should. The fact is, that Horus was almost babied to the perfection of being a shadow of the emperor in every single way. I don't think it would be too far to imagine he was indeed a reflection of the emperor.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually he is right, Horus was beaten by 4 other primarchs. I was talking about valdor.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Is that fluff is indeed still official (as it seems to be old fluff), then that would say a lot about the strongest primarchs. I assume that due to Raven's Flight which is new fluff that the other three would be Angron, Sanguinus, Corax, and then Leman Russ. Could someone quote me this source as its probably old so I wont be able to get it, cool to learn something new everyday. 

However, if these were duels, I would just state for the record that it differenciates from real combat as most newer fluff supports Horus being the greater primarch in every way as I just showed.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

It was in one of the old fluff long prior to the HH series and CV, GW is known for re writing fluff so whether they have changed it im unsure, considering how easily the thousand son (can't remember which one it was) nearly killed valdor it may have changed.

Personally I think CV and the HH buffed Horus to much, to the point that make him look far better than the emperor. In a way to show him as humanity's greatest champion, but to also emphasise his fall from grace


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I thought the old fluff stated in general horus was above all and the new fluff has depowered horus while buffing all the other primarchs?


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Horus has always been good and in the HH series hes one hard locco, and a really nice guy up to Davin. The other primarchs have been given a personality, whereas before they were rather bland, with 1 back story if they were lucky.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Corax was a primarch and as such would have one of an ego. Most consider the top 4 cc primarchs to be leman, Horus, angron, sang.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The fluff says top CC fighters were Sang, Angron, Russ, and Corax....with Horus after them.

And that the NIGHT HAUNTAH was an unknown in horus's eyes since he never trained him.

But then we have Dorn's opinion which differs from Horus's in that Dorn was numero two with haunter being humber one since no other has ever bested him.

But then we have Corax's opinion which is that Angron is above him, and that possibly only Horus and Sang...

Thus...

Horus Opinion of top CC fighters
1. Sang
2. Russ
3. Angron
4. Corax
5. Himself (Horus)
*. Comments that Konrad is the only one he didnt train - and thus is unknown

Corax opinion of top CC fighters
1. Angron
2. Horus/Sang
3. Sang/Horus
4. Himself (Corax)

Dorn's opinion on top CC fighters
1. Night Haunter
2. Himself (Dorn)
3. Horus (as he states he doesn't fear Horus due to that no other has ever bested him (dorn) in combat except Haunter.)


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

And since Horus trained almost all I would go with his over the rest of the pompus bastards.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'd like to know where the fluff that states that Corax is one of the best Primarchs in close combat comes from.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I think he assumes corax is somewhat trustworthy in this.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The corax bits, both his opinion of top fighters, and Horus's opinion of top fighters....the first from ravens flight...The second (horus's rankings) come from the older piece of fluff people were talking about earlier where Horus states the four primarchs who bested him in combat and in his opinion are his superior.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I'd like to know where the fluff that states that Corax is one of the best Primarchs in close combat comes from.


_Raven's Flight_ is one of the examples that shows Corax had a bit of confidence in himself but though he had none when Angron was about to tear him apart. He lists Horus, and perhaps Sanguinus as being the two other primarchs that could best him.

I personally still think Horus was the strongest because as warmaster he was a very diplomatic and humble primarch. It would have been very wrong of him to have beaten every primarch in every sense, in which in turn would have made him a very hated brother amongst the other primarchs and would have caused lots of tension with the campaign in reuniting and creating the utopia for humanity. It was in his best interests to embrace and encourage the traits of each primarch. Not to beat them. In fact i do not recall him disregarding or favouring any legion for that matter, which the emperor did.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It was my undestanding that Corax believed that he couldn't take Angron and that only a couple of Primarchs would be able to, including Horus and Sanguinius, not that he was only slightly worse than Angron and the Primarch's that could best him but otherwise better than the other Primarchs in close combat.

Regarding Horus' opinion- I'd like to know where that info comes from or really it might as well just be classed as fan-fiction.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He wan't the best at anything, he was simply good at everything.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with that gen ahab, I do not perceive horus at the best ay anything, but...he was good at everything he tried at.

That's what made him special..he wasn't the top player in any respective field, but he was good in all of them and able to use that to his advantage.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> It was my undestanding that Corax believed that he couldn't take Angron and that only a couple of Primarchs would be able to, including Horus and Sanguinius, not that he was only slightly worse than Angron and the Primarch's that could best him but otherwise better than the other Primarchs in close combat.
> 
> Regarding Horus' opinion- I'd like to know where that info comes from or really it might as well just be classed as fan-fiction.


Corax was refferring about himself not Angron. 

The idea about Horus stems from some of the characteristics that I have read upon Horus before turning. I take that quote from a couple pages back as the main back up for my theory. He isn't my favorite primarch but I would give him credit based on how he treated his brothers, or at least the few instances he has spoken to other primarchs. I wouldn't base the ideas of which primarchs are better at fighting in close combat off of a one time duel. If it really is older fluff I would like the mention of it in a more earlier work that comes out so that it may give us a closer look at who was close combat better.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Whatever the case may be, the fact that Horus is not the top cc fighter will never change. If that older fluff states that he is not that he is not unless new fluff that isn't the direct word of any one primarch and is an event that would suggest or show that it is no longer cannon is presented. Therefore we have to assume he was bested and had supperiors in cc.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't see why it is so hard to believe horus had several superiors in cc and wasn't the best. He was 5-6/18 ranked best cc fighters, that's pretty good, he was in top third.

The only ones above him were sang, russ, corax, angron, and possibly haunter as he was stated to be an unknown as he never trained him. If we disregard dorn's opinion than horus by his own opinion is 5-6 of 18 of top cc fighters.

That ranking changes when the opinion is based upon dorn's or corax.


----------

