# Grimdark or Grimderp?



## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Hey all, haven't been around in awhile because I'm busy as hell nowadays- I scarcely get a chance to mess around with 40k now, but I've still kept myself engaged in the hobby through all the fluff.

And so I've been thinking as I pour over this stuff- 40k obviously is very dark, but is this really a good thing? There are no true 'good guys' in the setting, and the faction that gets closest to this (Tau) get chewed out a bit by some parts of the fanbase because of that. People either seem to relish or resent the overall hopeless tone the franchise gives off. 

My question really is this- with 40k the way it is now, do you think it's dark in a way that can be taken seriously or so over the top dark it's borderline stupid (and I mean that in an endearing way, mind you)? 

Personally, I lean towards the latter- I think the game could benefit from adding back in some of the earlier satirical elements from the earlier editions.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

I believe the Imperium is the good guys. They are faced with hard choices and make them, which can be seen as "evil" to the unaffected observer.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> I believe the Imperium is the good guys. They are faced with hard choices and make them, which can be seen as "evil" to the unaffected observer.


This. :goodpost:


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

DeathKlokk said:


> I believe the Imperium is the good guys. They are faced with hard choices and make them, which can be seen as "evil" to the unaffected observer.


Same!

Good answer

It's a dark universe with the Imperium of man beset on all sides, plus everyones fighting for their piece. I love the final line of the 40k intro - "In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

I love the dark setting, where its all or nothing, and only the ambitious, ruthless and smart survive.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

The sole reason the Imperium can be described as 'good' is that (as the Big E put it in a novel) if humanity fails, it fails forever. The cost of defeat is simply -way- too high. It's a powerful reason, but not absolute.

I also do empathize with some people who betray the Empire, however. If you are a psyker or simply value independence or creativity in any way, it's not a welcoming galaxy for you. I can see why many people would chafe at being trapped under a system infinitely more reppressive than any dictatorship we have seen soo far. That's what makes the setting have gravitas, not derp: the black hats are not without depth, even if they are cackling madmen.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the imperium are close minded tyrants who literally have been on a mission of extermination for thousands of years. yeah not evil at all!

reading the HH books, particularly the first few, their reasonings for this are iffy at best even, as they attack "xenos" on sight without thinking if they might be friendly or not, yet...



a colony of humans are even allied with the eldar and taught about chaos, now they will still attack eldar on sight, despite the obvious that the eldar could have been allies.


Basically, to the imperium, anyone who isnt them, should be dead... sound familiar?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

The Imperium is the faction furthest away from being good guys you can possibly get except Dark Eldar.

Tyranids are just following instinct.

Orks just live to fight, and are just doing to others what they would do between themselves if there were no other factions to fight.

Tau are the equivalent of the Roman empire, expansionist but fair to those they besiege (the option to join is there) and they always try (and often succeed) in diplomacy first. But they aren't liars, and it will always be apparent what their intentions are. That leaves each world they desire to take, to think if they can stand up to the might of the Tau. It's about 50/50 chance of a fight or surrender when it comes to Imperial worlds being targeted, depending for how long the planet has been dealing with the Tau before.

Dark Eldar are true evil. They live to inflict pain on themselves and everyone they raid. Then they bring back as many as they can to torture.

Eldar aren't evil at all, on a whole, though their society had evil elements at points. They are insular and protective, and is the faction to most frequently work with others to achieve their goals. The reason they frequently backstab their former allies is just that's what they've been conditioned to. They know the Imperium will do it to them in a heartbeat. Same goes for the other factions they've worked it, with Tau being the notable exception. It is said that the Eldar like to observe the Tau - because in the Tau they see a little bit of themselves.

Necrons aren't evil, but the C'Tan are.

Chaos is chaotic (duh) evil.

But yes, as a whole, the universe isn't something I can take seriously, and I don't think any of my friends do either. The universe is an extreme and is full of examples of suspension of disbelief. Unfortunately, this is reflected in what kind of writers are attracted to write background for Warhammer 40K. There are golden nuggets dispersed in between the murk, but it will on a whole always be grimderp.

I think those who do take it seriously are the ones to, as you say, dismiss the Tau or belittle them as a legitimate part of the universe. So generally, when I come across people who mock me for playing Tau, I don't really mind, as they've already kind of insulted their own intelligence. Maybe a shrewd grin is all I care to give them


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Just speaking for myself, I take it 'seriously' - what I mean by that is I enjoy the novels, the games and all aspects of the hobby, and there is no race I feel that is out of place. I really like the Tau, their greater good ideals and the fact that some humans have gone over to them, they also feel quite unique. Which leads me to my next point, that each army feels quite different to the rest.

I just really like the universe and all parts of it. Anyone who 'hates' or doesn't take seriously certain parts of the world is missing out I feel.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> I believe the Imperium is the good guys. They are faced with hard choices and make them, which can be seen as "evil" to the unaffected observer.


So when the Imperium had their run of the galaxy with little or no threats they were faced with the hard choice: Diplomacy and peaceful colonization or a massive crusade to exterminate everything not human? They made the choice for the great crusade? Yeeeah not evil at all...

The Tau are definately the best while the Eldar take a close second. We find and eliminate all threats to ourselves with as little collateral damage as possible. Hell we were allied with humans before the whole "Kill the xeno scum" bit with craftworlds getting wiped out.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Machiavellismx said:


> Just speaking for myself, I take it 'seriously' - what I mean by that is I enjoy the novels, the games and all aspects of the hobby, and there is no race I feel that is out of place. I really like the Tau, their greater good ideals and the fact that some humans have gone over to them, they also feel quite unique. Which leads me to my next point, that each army feels quite different to the rest.
> 
> I just really like the universe and all parts of it. Anyone who 'hates' or doesn't take seriously certain parts of the world is missing out I feel.


When I talk about "taking it seriously", I don't mean mocking it, or belittling it. And that definitely isn't anywhere _near_ hating it. It just means... Not taking it seriously in the way some trekkies take Star Trek seriously. Meaning, this is a universe that could not exist, there are too many coincidences in too short amount of time (relatively) that had to take place for a galactic stalemate between 10 factions to exist.

The stories and the richness of the universe is no lesser for it, one just realizes the strings holding up the premise are thin and brittle.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

oh yeah, defo not the same degree as trekkies and stuff. its just a lot of fun.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> My question really is this- with 40k the way it is now, do you think it's dark in a way that can be taken seriously or so over the top dark it's borderline stupid (and I mean that in an endearing way, mind you)?
> 
> Personally, I lean towards the latter- I think the game could benefit from adding back in some of the earlier satirical elements from the earlier editions.


I don't mind the dark near hopeless feeling of the 41st millennium. While it's a bit too dark for my tastes (i.e. I certainly wouldn't want to live there), I actually feel it's more "real" to me than earlier editions. 

For example, while I liked orks being goofy, I find the universe more believable now that orks have been made out to be darker. While I've never fought in a war, I imagine there's not much goofy or funny about fighting in an actual battle. 

The fluff is all about supporting the table top game, and the table top game is all about war. Therefore it makes sense that the fluff would portray a dark universe in which "there is only war."


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Machiavellismx said:


> Just speaking for myself, I take it 'seriously' - what I mean by that is I enjoy the novels, the games and all aspects of the hobby, and there is no race I feel that is out of place. I really like the Tau, their greater good ideals and the fact that some humans have gone over to them, they also feel quite unique. Which leads me to my next point, that each army feels quite different to the rest.
> 
> I just really like the universe and all parts of it. Anyone who 'hates' or doesn't take seriously certain parts of the world is missing out I feel.


I agree with this, honestly, for all the game mechanic faults and dodgy units and sometimes outright wacky fluff. The 40K Universe and Intellectual Property is frankly one of a kind - It's the status quo for Grimdark scifi these days. Yes it had more comical predecessors and has grown grim and darker over time, but hey, so did Batman. The few things that do grind me won't ever stop me taking part in the hobby. Honestly, the Emperor could have a passionate relationship with a Seagull in the HH series and I'd still buy whatever book it was in and the model to boot. 

However I do hate outright contradictory fluff. As well as the never ending "grinding" of the same storyline source ("It's the end of times blah blah..."). Finally my biggest gripe is the fact that everything needs to have an alterior motive or vein of malcontent to it. "The Ethereals control the Tau. The Blood Angels are growing too unstable, The Necrons have no friends etc etc" Just give us a break already.


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I never understood the reasoning behind the indications that the Ethereals control the tau through pheromones or some latent psychic link. I was perfectly happy with the reasoning in the codex for why everyone follows them. 

"In the desert a bunch of dudes were fighting. Then some other dude came out and said 'Let's stop killing each other and build a bridge. Bridges are fun.' copy and paste until the sector is under tau control." 

Only gripe is that they tend to over grimdark things a bit. How many different plot bombs are in the 40K universe right now that if anyone were to take affect it would completely change the shift in power to one side?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

There are some good parts to the HH series, where "good guys" do good things. The storyline about the remembrancers, for instance.

Also, there's the great fiction or "golden nugget", displayed below:


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Everytime I see that comic i pissmyself laughing.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

When it comes to being 'evil', I think the Imperium is the most varied within itself. On one hand you've got commisars who beleive the solution to any problem is to throw boddies at it, and on the otherhand you've got factions like the Slamanders, who came to blows with other space marines for needlessly waisting human lives.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I don't overly have aproblem with40k being overly grim dark, but did they really have to make chaos more grim dark, I mean was it really to pleasant to acknowledge the good aspect of the old chaos gods, for instance a berzerker back in the day would accept a formal challenge if one was issued, and would ignore enemies that were to weak to earn glory, now they are literally lobotomized nutter that kill anything that moves without reason. What? was the giant goat monster god not grim dark enough with his demand endless demand for war and murder in his name? I mean at this point they make it sound like only the most retarded would follow the chaos gods.


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## moonstorm07 (Dec 18, 2010)

I think that HH was good. After that everyone turned to chaos blady blah. However they make chaos look like marines with spikes and horns. Like Goth Tactical Marines...


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> I don't overly have aproblem with40k being overly grim dark, but did they really have to make chaos more grim dark, I mean was it really to pleasant to acknowledge the good aspect of the old chaos gods, for instance a berzerker back in the day would accept a formal challenge if one was issued, and would ignore enemies that were to weak to earn glory, now they are literally lobotomized nutter that kill anything that moves without reason. What? was the giant goat monster god not grim dark enough with his demand endless demand for war and murder in his name? I mean at this point they make it sound like only the most retarded would follow the chaos gods.


THAT. Even as a Chaos fan I must say I hate Khorne for that reason. He could have been awesome, but now his whole stick is literally "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD." 

That is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Every setting has a sort of 'equilibrium' where it comfortably makes sense. The problem with 40k's darkness to me is that lately it's been putting a strain on my suspension of disbelief. Chaos is a reflection of human elements, and yet there ought to be _some_ debatable positive reflections in these. There literally are no positive elements, no real gleams of hope, no true good guys that don't get stamped out (Ethereal= MIND CONTROLLLL), which I need as a spectator in order to continue partaking in the narrative.

You could argue that this is where humanity comes in, but I could argue otherwise since I possess the opinion that the Imperium in it's quest to survive has lost every redeeming quality it ever had. In fact, this is one of the few cases where it's been reversed. Mankind should be weak and dying so we can sympathize with them as an underdog. You can say that's exactly what they are, though. However, we are only _told_ that Mankind is screwed despite having legions of super soldier armies and even more legions of untold billion regular soldiers. Sure we're told they can only do so much and that millions die every day, but we never see it! Even in a technological dark age they are still more advanced technology than almost every race minus the Eldar and Necrons. We are told one thing and given another. 

Throw in how powerful they are on the table and in other medium, and this whole idea that they are the tragic race that we are to align with is absolutely FUBAR. If anything, the Imperium fits the role better as a main antagonist: they're super oppressive, super powerful, have an extensive reach and inadvertently seem unstoppable through plot armor. 

This is the faulty grimdark I'm talking about. It's a clash in objectives- creating a story and successful marketing. I don't mind humanity's dark getup of dystopian "OBEY THE EMPEROR" and all that. 

If they were to show how the Imperium was crumbling under this misguided attempt, how even as they turned to the most desperate measures to stay alive only hastened their downfall, that would make it fine. I could support them as a group. If mankind truly seemed threatened with annihilation and was backed up against the wall, I could side with them. But we don't see this. They're simply too vast and powerful for me to believe they're losing.

They truly do fit the bill better as such a setting's antagonist. Hell, this could be great if the story was about forces of evil competing for dominance and we're following the primary anti-hero. But then it's completely contradicted by trying to paint up the Imperium as the good guys! They cancel out what they could have going for them as either protagonists or antagonists. Make them vast and powerful, or make them tragic characters- otherwise you cancel either great aspect out. 

If anything, this sort of mess up is why I end up liking the Tau for example so much more- they fit the role of protagonists so much better. They have only a tiny hold of space and are indeed underdogs. There is the constant threat that they could be totally wiped out if they falter, giving us tension. They have the closest thing to redeeming qualities in such a dark setting. Their ideals and hopes are young, idealistic, and ultimately naive given the setting- this sets up for a good narration where you can tell what the protagonists are going to fall into while they can't.

I'm not trying to use these reasons as an excuse to bash one faction and promote the other- I'm just trying to point out how these faults with the story's setting and tone have actually backfired, at least through my perspective as both a prospective author and English major. These things just make it harder for me to take it seriously.

Couple it with how the plot is -never- going to move, and it becomes overbearing. Like what Savage Convoy said- if any one of the many factions and their plot bombs actually did go off instead of waving it's arms around in the background, the entire setting would be radically altered. If they could move it, most of these problems likely would be addressed- we might see only a few hundred marines remaining and the Imperial Guard losing ground with every battle- they could be torn between sticking with their old ways waiting for the Emperor to return or to give all that up and ally with the few other 'good' races for a chance of survival. Seeing a once great and proud race become such a horrible Orwellian nightmare in order to survive, only for them to still face the brink and finally be forced to change their ways to survive would be an awesome arc for a story of redemption. The problem is I understand the plot can't be moved for marketability, and these things will not change. 

So they could at least let up on a some of these other aspects because it reminds me of someone trying way too hard to be dark when it had already succeeded before.

You've all brought great arguments from both sides, though. I was afraid this was going to turn into a war over who was right and who was wrong. I guess it could seem hypocritical given my gigantic essay here, but it still ultimately is my personal opinion. I'm just glad to finally get it out there.


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## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

I think it is interesting that people think the Imperium is the most evil when they have to compete with crazed daemons that are the embodiment of evil, aliens that have absolutely no ability for reason and, in fact, exist solely to make war and destroy other lifeforms, and now ancient enemies that want to consume all living things in the galaxy once again simply because they're jealous.

Besides the Imperium, the Tau and Eldar seem like the only other factions with the ability to reason, hence why they were also on the "forces of Order" side. The Imperium does not have a great track record with dealing with them, but when you are a fragile human species who are only alive because of extreme militarization policies to defend against all sorts of foreign threats that can't be reasoned with, it isn't that hard to understand why the Imperium has become the way it has become. Sure, in M41 it may be corrupt and overbearing, but it is still the only major defender of order and reason in the universe. Species like the Orks, Tyranids, and the organizations of Chaos are simply evil and must be destroyed where they are found.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Daemons are pure embodiments of their gods' will. They have no ability to "reason" Nor do Tyranids, how can something that does the only thing it knows how to do evil? 

I agree completely with C'Tan, exceptionally well put!


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> THAT. Even as a Chaos fan I must say I hate Khorne for that reason. He could have been awesome, but now his whole stick is literally "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD."
> 
> That is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Every setting has a sort of 'equilibrium' where it comfortably makes sense. The problem with 40k's darkness to me is that lately it's been putting a strain on my suspension of disbelief. Chaos is a reflection of human elements, and yet there ought to be _some_ debatable positive reflections in these. There literally are no positive elements, no real gleams of hope, no true good guys that don't get stamped out (Ethereal= MIND CONTROLLLL), which I need as a spectator in order to continue partaking in the narrative.


This whole post was awesome.

I'm also a Chaos fan, and I like Chaos Undivided, as together the gods are pretty cool. Singularly, they're pretty shallow, maybe except for Slaanesh and Tzeentch but they're not exactly exploring the depths of emotion with their fluff either.

I guess the only reason why I could feel a little different is that, as a Chaos player, I used to regularly play IG and beat them, so it felt like I was battering the Imperium.Also, all of our gaming club had different races and armies, only one player had Space Marines, so it was good to mix it up.

These days though I get what everyone feels about the Space Marines. They really are the poster boys, and with the last Chaos Codex, they totally ruined it for me. They turned the badass, threating legions into just Gothic Space Marines. Where we had all these different legions with at least a separate unit for each one with some fluff and rules, now we have the Chaos equivalent of the SM codex, e.g. SM codex is Ultramarines, Chaos is Black Legion.

Talk about ruining a good thing. With the new Chaos Codex, the game defiantly lost flavour for me. The fluff is what keeps me in now, the exception books we sometimes get.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

Samules said:


> So when the Imperium had their run of the galaxy with little or no threats they were faced with the hard choice: Diplomacy and peaceful colonization or a massive crusade to exterminate everything not human? They made the choice for the great crusade? Yeeeah not evil at all...
> 
> The Tau are definately the best while the Eldar take a close second. We find and eliminate all threats to ourselves with as little collateral damage as possible. Hell we were allied with humans before the whole "Kill the xeno scum" bit with craftworlds getting wiped out.



I remember reading(and tell me if I'm wrong) that during some age Mankind was laid siege to by Demons, and Aliens, this before the Imperium itself was born, this is what made Mankind hate and distrust Aliens(again, correct me if I'm wrong anyone)


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Imperium - Good guys
Space Marines - White knights of the good guys, although very arogant and haughty
Eldar - Tragic hero good guys
Tau - Naive optimistic good guys (they are the best friend who gets killed in the second scene)
All the rest are antagonists, flat characterizations of the base fears of man. The wild animal, the insane murderer, the warmonger.

Occasionally, an author will wright some good books that bring some inkling of humanity to the bad guys, like in the Soul Drinkers books. However, the vast majority of books are stuck in that Shakespearian tragedy plotline where everyone is betrayed, good intentions go afoul, virtue turns to jaded remorse, innocence is destroyed, paradise lost.


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## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

jaysen said:


> Imperium - Good guys
> Space Marines - White knights of the good guys, although very arogant and haughty
> Eldar - Tragic hero good guys
> Tau - Naive optimistic good guys (they are the best friend who gets killed in the second scene)
> ...


I agree. The 40K universe would be more interesting if the belligerents weren't so obviously pitted. Instead of the dynamic we have now, it would be better to have multiple human and alien factions that aren't all obviously evil/good or hell bent on destruction... Make them competitive and rationally independent with different motives and strengths and weaknesses. One plot-line that I heard would have been the Ultramarines and the Ultramar Realm splitting off from the Imperium and starting a new, "pure" rule free of the corruption that is crumbling the Imperium.  That would be a cool dynamic, but I don't think it would happen.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> The imperium are close minded tyrants who literally have been on a mission of extermination for thousands of years. yeah not evil at all!


This ^^ ^^

Take the awesome Heresy books for an example. One story sticks out where the Space Wolves join forces with some humans on a world to battle their enemies. At the end of the battle when the Space Wolves help achieve victory the humans realise the SW are there to bring them into the imperium and when they refuse the SW massacre them.

So. Not evil at all! :headbutt:

Sorta/kinda reminds me of certain factions throughout human history whose similar actions we would denounce as evil at the drop of a hat. :scratchhead:

Also, RE Tyranids, the presence of a Hive Mind negates the idea that they are following their instincts. The way I see it they are driven by a sentience therefore culpable for their actions. Thus Evil.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Durant said:


> Also, RE Tyranids, the presence of a Hive Mind negates the idea that they are following their instincts. The way I see it they are driven by a sentience therefore culpable for their actions. Thus Evil.


Arguably so- again we're checkmated into "Plot will never move forward", but it's been hinted that the Nids are actually running away from something-something big and they're just using our galaxy as a pit stop. 

Still awful? Yes. But perhaps with some sort of justification if something out there is so terrible it's got Tyranids heading for the hills.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Durant said:


> This ^^ ^^
> 
> Take the awesome Heresy books for an example. One story sticks out where the Space Wolves join forces with some humans on a world to battle their enemies. At the end of the battle when the Space Wolves help achieve victory the humans realise the SW are there to bring them into the imperium and when they refuse the SW massacre them.


Not only do they refuse to join, they say "we'll fight you." It's only after they give that threat do they get ass-kicked.

Also, I see why the Imperium gets such badpress, but it's because the Emperor knows what's out there. He knows (or believes he knows) that if humanity isn't ready, that they'll perish. So those worlds must be brought into compliance, because the alternative is so much worse.

Take that story for example - the planet is under attack by Dark Eldar. They can't fight, and regularly get wiped out. The Space Wolves come, and teach them to fight and save them. Now without the Space Wolves, they would never have been able to fend the DE off. And I know at the end, they say we can stand alone now etc, we're free, and I've heard it argued "why didnt they just make them strong enough to stand alone, rather than conquer them?" Because they'll never be strong enough alone. If they had never been lost from the Imperium, they wouldnt have suffered at the hands of the DE for so long. Also, Look at Cadia, that now has Chaos forces on the ground and it's the most important world after Terra and Mars, I know its a high threat and that its under attack much more, but my point is either the Imperium stands as one, or falls as many.

The end justifies the means in 40K. If humanity survives, then it was worth the price tag of the billions killed, to save billions upon billions more. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its defiantly a big shade of grey. The lesser evil of two evils.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Tobacco said:


> Instead of the dynamic we have now, it would be better to have multiple human and alien factions that aren't all obviously evil/good or hell bent on destruction...


I can never understand how people can complain about the 'obviously evil/good' races yet also about the overall darkness of the setting. 

The reason the setting is so grim and dark is because there are no obviously evil or obviously good guys. *Every single race* is doing what it has to to survive. Depending on the point of view *every single race* is the good guy and *every single race* is the bad guy. 

The Imperium are both Well-Intentioned Extremists AND a tyranical dictatorship of epic proportions.

Chaos is both a means to personal freedom AND a Religion of Evil.

The Eldar are both desperate survivors clinging to the last remenants of faded glory AND Manipulative Bastards willing to sacrifice everything else to survive.

The Orks are both warmongering killing machines AND creatures doing what they were built to do.

The Nids are both warmongering killing machines AND creatures doing what they have to to survive.

The Tau are both naive newcomers AND an oppressive and manipulative dictatorship.

The Necrons are both Omnisidal Maniacs AND mindless slaves to ancient gods.

The Dark Eldar are both Complete Monsters and sadists AND desperate survivors clinging to the last remenants of faded glory and their own personal survival.


There is no universal evil in 40k. *This* is what makes the setting so dark. *This* is what makes it so grim. *This* is what makes it so different and interesting. *This* is why I play.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> I can never understand how people can complain about the 'obviously evil/good' races yet also about the overall darkness of the setting.
> 
> The reason the setting is so grim and dark is because there are no obviously evil or obviously good guys. *Every single race* is doing what it has to to survive. Depending on the point of view *every single race* is the good guy and *every single race* is the bad guy.
> 
> ...


He gets it. Well said MEQ.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I can never understand how people can complain about the 'obviously evil/good' races yet also about the overall darkness of the setting.
> 
> The reason the setting is so grim and dark is because there are no obviously evil or obviously good guys. *Every single race* is doing what it has to to survive. Depending on the point of view *every single race* is the good guy and *every single race* is the bad guy.
> 
> ...


And it's posts like this that keep bringing me back to Heresy. Very nice.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree on MEQ's points, although to be a Dictatorship there has to be a single leader who is above everyone else. This isn't the case for Tau and Eldar. Though, that is semantics. The Tau Empire have also to this day allowed O'Shovah Farsight's breakaway faction to exist, so you can't really call them oppressive. Actually, Oppressive is the one thing Tau aren't, all allies and auxiliaries are treated better than if they'd been part of any other faction in the galaxy.

There are of course the sterilization incidents, but that is only for populace of aliens who live on planets where Tau have colonized. I would do the same thing really. In cases where whole imperial colonies have seceded from the Imperium, the Tau have seen no need for sterilization as the planet would be inhabited by humans only.

And of course Eldar would do anything to survive. Who wouldn't? If I were faced with imminent death and in order to survive the next 5 seconds I would have to kill the cutest kitten on the planet, I would do it.

None of those are real evils.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I agree on MEQ's points, although to be a Dictatorship there has to be a single leader who is above everyone else. This isn't the case for Tau and Eldar. Though, that is semantics. The Tau Empire have also to this day allowed O'Shovah Farsight's breakaway faction to exist, so you can't really call them oppressive. Actually, Oppressive is the one thing Tau aren't, all allies and auxiliaries are treated better than if they'd been part of any other faction in the galaxy.


1) My bad about the misuse of dictator, I believe the word I meant was Oligarchy (for the Imperium as well, seeing as the Emperor has no actual power).
2) I would still consider the Tau oppressive. They have a rigidly defined caste system. Outsiders, while appreciated, are rather rigidly controlled and more limited in their freedoms than 'native' members of the Empire.
3) I would question whether the Tau have the ability to reign-in Farsight. Allowing him to survive if they can't stop him isn't a sign of freedom, especially as he has been effectively banished from the Empire.
4) Saying that they treat their allies better than the other factions is like saying that something tastes better than a rock, ie not a good indicator of how good the treatment actually is.



> None of those are real evils.


That was exactly my point. There are no real evils.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> 1) My bad about the misuse of dictator, I believe the word I meant was Oligarchy (for the Imperium as well, seeing as the Emperor has no actual power).


That would be more apt, but an Oligarchy isn't seen as evil  though a dictatorship can be non-evil, it has never happened.



MEQinc said:


> 2) I would still consider the Tau oppressive. They have a rigidly defined caste system. Outsiders, while appreciated, are rather rigidly controlled and more limited in their freedoms than 'native' members of the Empire.


True on the caste system. This structure allows all Tau to contribute within the field they are good at. You've got to realize in this matter that Tau have evolved differently within the race as a whole for thousands of years, and they have evolved physically and mentally in such a way that this caste system falls naturally to them.

Their pilots are physically more slender and compact, their fighters are taller and stronger, their diplomats and traders are smarter and more gracious... This caste system is not enforced, it's a mutually beneficial agreement, to keep Tau united towards... The Greater Good.

The point about liberties are outright false though, all of the Tau's allies are full citizens and enjoy all the amenities of their own.



MEQinc said:


> 3) I would question whether the Tau have the ability to reign-in Farsight. Allowing him to survive if they can't stop him isn't a sign of freedom, especially as he has been effectively banished from the Empire.


The Tau Empire have expanded ten times the distance in one direction than the distance they'd have to travel to strike at Farsight by now. If they wanted to, they would.

And on the point of casting him out... Of course they did. Farsight is a renegade, he has left the Empire, Tau's act of "casting him out" was just a formality, he had already cast himself out.



MEQinc said:


> 4) Saying that they treat their allies better than the other factions is like saying that something tastes better than a rock, ie not a good indicator of how good the treatment actually is.


Everything is about perspective... Everything 



MEQinc said:


> That was exactly my point. There are no real evils.


And that's contrary to my point, _there are real evils_. The Imperium and the Dark Eldar are the only ones though, too revel and prosper off _choices_ to commit atrocities. The Imperium with their Exterminatus and close minded racial persecution, and the Dark Eldar for their commitment to torture, pain, death and rape.

The Imperium are the worst though.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> This caste system is not enforced, it's a mutually beneficial agreement, to keep Tau united towards... The Greater Good.


Mutually benficial or not they have laws against interbreeding and seem to prefer that the different castes interact as little as possible (based simply on the fact that we never see the other castes and mention of cooperation is rare to non-existant).



> The point about liberties are outright false though, all of the Tau's allies are full citizens and enjoy all the amenities of their own.


Full citizens who are not given the right to self-govern, the ability to pursue their own religious/political beliefs, are given mandatory military service and minimal military assistance, etc.?



> And on the point of casting him out... Of course they did. Farsight is a renegade, he has left the Empire, Tau's act of "casting him out" was just a formality, he had already cast himself out.


You stated that by allowing him to maintain his freedom they were showing they were not oppressive. However, the fact that he is not a part of their system and has indeed been cast out of that system indicate that they do not tolerate dissent.



> And that's contrary to my point, _there are real evils_. The Imperium and the Dark Eldar are the only ones though, too revel and prosper off _choices_ to commit atrocities. The Imperium with their Exterminatus and close minded racial persecution, and the Dark Eldar for their commitment to torture, pain, death and rape.


The Imperium declares Exterminatus as a choice of absoulute last resort. The sad fact of 40k is that there are threats so extensive that destroying a planet is necessary to stop, or simply slow, them. That the Imperium makes these choices hardly makes them evil, or at least it makes those who do those deeds a necessary evil. The Imperium's xenophobia is and always has been a matter of self defence. Further, it is no different to the policies adopted by *every single other race*. The Eldar place there own lives above humans, the Orks place fighting humans as more fun, the Nids only eat others, the Tau offer slavery or death. Humanity fights for the right for humans to exist. Without the Imperium, without the hard choices it makes, humanity would have ceased to exist.

As far as the Dark Eldar go, their behaviour is no different to that of the Tyranids. They feed off pain. They need the souls and suffering of others to maintain their own lives. As the Tyranids throw a worlds biosphere into chaos before an invasion so to do the Dark Eldar torture their victims. Yes it is horrifying, but does that make it evil? Is the beef industry evil? Is the lion evil for hunting the antelope? I would say no.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Mutually benficial or not they have laws against interbreeding and seem to prefer that the different castes interact as little as possible (based simply on the fact that we never see the other castes and mention of cooperation is rare to non-existant).


Right, because as they entered the grand theatre of the galaxy they know that with their limited numbers they need every citizen to be fully honed towards a specialty to survive (and it works, obviously) - no other race can claim to have killed 2 space marines and a thousand guardsmen for each of their own number.

Here's an example of why the Tau aren't evil: The Koloth Gorge massacre. Commander O'Shaseera (Shadowsun) trapped legions of guardsmen and entire chapters of Space Marines in a narrow gorge and killed the entirety of them in a 3 day sweeping massacre executed by the air caste and select units within the fire caste.

This act in itself is evil. Though, it displays individualism, an individual choice.

When O'Shaserra won the battle, she was summoned to T'au to be censored for her actions. The Tau as a whole did not approve of her ways. Though, the Imperium would do the same as O'Shaserra did, in every situation like it, and have been doing so forever.

An Imperial fleet chief would not be reprimanded for such an action. He would earn a commendation.



MEQinc said:


> Full citizens who are not given the right to self-govern, the ability to pursue their own religious/political beliefs, are given mandatory military service and minimal military assistance, etc.?


By self govern you mean? The right to enter politics or the freedom of choice? While they naturally don't have the prior, they definitely have the latter. The Tau empire recognizes skills, what you are good at is what you will do.

How would someone not enjoy being put to work doing what they do best at humane working hours, while being recognized as an equal to all those around him?



MEQinc said:


> You stated that by allowing him to maintain his freedom they were showing they were not oppressive. However, the fact that he is not a part of their system and has indeed been cast out of that system indicate that they do not tolerate dissent.


What would the alternative be? Give him a political party, allowing his faction the choice to challenge the ethereals at politics? That would be insane, and futile for all parties. Every Tau despises O'Shovah, but that just adds power and weight to the fact that they wouldn't commit vengeance.

What would the Imperium do?

They'd smear the walls with him, that's what.



MEQinc said:


> The Imperium declares Exterminatus as a choice of absoulute last resort. The sad fact of 40k is that there are threats so extensive that destroying a planet is necessary to stop, or simply slow, them. That the Imperium makes these choices hardly makes them evil, or at least it makes those who do those deeds a necessary evil. The Imperium's xenophobia is and always has been a matter of self defence. Further, it is no different to the policies adopted by *every single other race*. The Eldar place there own lives above humans, the Orks place fighting humans as more fun, the Nids only eat others, the Tau offer slavery or death. Humanity fights for the right for humans to exist. Without the Imperium, without the hard choices it makes, humanity would have ceased to exist.


Lots of holes in that statement. There are a number of events where the Eldar offered to work with the Imperium, shortly after the Horus Heresy, where the Imperium chose to say no, or to later stab their allies in the back.

The Eldar are the prime example that this is a lie. If it was up to the Eldar, the Imperium and Eldar would be permanent allies, and on a base moral level they would both be able to pull it off.

Policy is what killed it. The Imperium's policy of the utter destruction of anything foreign.

The Eldar would pose no threat to the Imperium if the Imperium weren't war criminals by choice.



MEQinc said:


> As far as the Dark Eldar go, their behaviour is no different to that of the Tyranids. They feed off pain. They need the souls and suffering of others to maintain their own lives. As the Tyranids throw a worlds biosphere into chaos before an invasion so to do the Dark Eldar torture their victims. Yes it is horrifying, but does that make it evil? Is the beef industry evil? Is the lion evil for hunting the antelope? I would say no.


I think you've misunderstood this. The Dark Eldar's pleasure from pain is not a physiological need, it's an addiction. They get high from the pain and suffering of others, but it's not a base need of their physiology. This makes it distinctly evil.

Killing and torturing to get high.

That sentence sums up the Dark Eldar in 6 words.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Right, because as they entered the grand theatre of the galaxy they know that with their limited numbers they need every citizen to be fully honed towards a specialty to survive


This is a justification, not a refutal. The Tau control what their people can do. This is the act of an oppressive government. Regardless of justification.



> By self govern you mean? The right to enter politics or the freedom of choice? While they naturally don't have the prior, they definitely have the latter. The Tau empire recognizes skills, what you are good at is what you will do.
> 
> How would someone not enjoy being put to work doing what they do best at humane working hours, while being recognized as an equal to all those around him?


They are not given freedom of choice. Humans are explictedly expected to abandon their faith in the God-Emperor and embrace the Greater Good. They are demanded to work, those who refuse will be punished. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you like it. 



> What would the alternative be? Give him a political party, allowing his faction the choice to challenge the ethereals at politics? That would be insane, and futile for all parties.


That's exactly what a non-oppressive government would be expected to do.



> Lots of holes in that statement. There are a number of events where the Eldar offered to work with the Imperium, shortly after the Horus Heresy, where the Imperium chose to say no, or to later stab their allies in the back.


Because the Eldar have clearly established themselves as trustworthy, honourable and generally nice people? I think not.



> The Eldar are the prime example that this is a lie. If it was up to the Eldar, the Imperium and Eldar would be permanent allies, and on a base moral level they would both be able to pull it off.


If it were up to the Eldar every single human would die so that they could regain their empire. They want to be friends (occasionally and temporairly) because the Imperium is stronger than they are.



> I think you've misunderstood this. The Dark Eldar's pleasure from pain is not a physiological need, it's an addiction. They get high from the pain and suffering of others, but it's not a base need of their physiology. This makes it distinctly evil.


It is indeed a base need. Without the souls of others they will be consumed by Slaanesh. The pain and suffering they inflict makes the soul last longer (don't really know why). They need to inflict pain to live. That they are also addicted is irrelevant.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Both MEQ and Metalhandkerchief boast excellent points, and I'd like to throw my 2 cents in to maybe get the playing field aligned. 

First off, with the whole evil/not evil argument. I think we need to straighten this out. While both of you have great examples, I'm not sure it's being seen eye to eye as we're talking about several different definitions of 'evil' here. Evil is indeed a very subjective thing, and I think we need to settle on a definition of evil first.

MEQ, I am operating under the assumption that that you believe that if something is a necessity to carry out survival, than it is justifiable or at the very least, not truly evil. 

Metalhandkerchief on the other hand views this more as a case of 'The ends justify the means' in that while such things might be vital to continue survival, they are still ultimately conscious choices that can be inherently wrong by nature. 

I think we need to find some middle ground between these concepts of amorality before resuming stances, no?



And briefly deviating from that, I would like to join in on the argument about the Tau's alleged suppression of personal freedom. Now, Tau fluff isn't anywhere near as commonplace as some other races, I do want to point out that the argument as a whole is rather...Difficult, as a couple citations may be a little less than reliable. The Dark Crusade/relic fluff in general is a bit muddy and self contradictory.

On one hand, there is of course the ending narrations that illustrates them as putting POWs through re-education camps and the infamous sterilization thing. They're painted up very Orwellian. 

BUT in the same game, we have several occasions where Shas'O Kais tells Imperial forces (Blood Ravens, no less) that the Tau Empire will respect their religious belief in the Emperor so long as they were willing to see and behave reasonably. 

One can obviously turn to one of these examples and ignore the other of course, but the fact remains that ultimately the DoW fluff is contradictory and quite unreliable. Don't forget the fickle nature of it's own canon concerning various characters like Eliphas, Gorgutz, etc.


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## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I can never understand how people can complain about the 'obviously evil/good' races yet also about the overall darkness of the setting.
> 
> The reason the setting is so grim and dark is because there are no obviously evil or obviously good guys. *Every single race* is doing what it has to to survive. Depending on the point of view *every single race* is the good guy and *every single race* is the bad guy.


No, only a few races have the capacity to comprehend "good guy" and "bad guy". The reason that the forces of disorder are the forces of disorder, and hence, evil, is because they have no capacity for reason and just want to destroy everything. Given this situation where breeds of alien far superior at combat are hell-bent on destroying everything in their path, the Imperium is the only major force of order holding off the hordes, and if they break a few eggs along the way, so be it. As MHK pointed out, the Imperium has to be brutal about its own survival. It can't take a more reasonable, "safe", approach because it is dealing with constant unknowns and an enemy who is not reasonable. It would be one thing if most alien races were like the Eldar or Tau, but the biggest enemies of the Imperium are not.

Also, by evil, I don't mean a moral standpoint from whichever point of view you please. I don't think, obviously, that lions or termites are evil just because they do what they do to survive. Relative to the Imperium, however, the forces of disorder represent the evil that would either enslave or destroy the entire galaxy.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Damn it its 40k there is no good and evil just shades of who is the biggest jack off of the bunch. Regardless of their own justifications for it their are some obvious ass holes on the top of the prick pile and to me they are follows.

-Dark eldar (self centered ass hats)

-Necrons (C'tan = self centered egotistical life force crack addicts, Necron lords=Nihilistic self important genocidal jerks...some even have sever narcissism)

-Chaos (Genocidal revenge seeking nihilists, with daddy issues)

-Hive mind (Thought I was going to say nids right well they are just the hive minds meat puppets, and it is perfectly aware that its skull fu^%ing worlds filled of sentient life forms)

And with a honorable mention is.

-The imperium (Bunch of xenophobic space Nazis with a mandate that all other life that isn't a human can suck it even if it means we all die together)

There I solved the problem in a over dramatic and obvious way. Hell if you talk long enough it is possible to convince yourself just about anything, after all no one just wakes up and decides to eat someones kid, but it doesn't make you any less of a jerk at the end of the day when you do. Hell you may have had a damn good reason, but no one will believe it.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Damn it its 40k there is no good and evil just shades of who is the biggest jack off of the bunch. Regardless of their own justifications for it their are some obvious ass holes on the top of the prick pile and to me they are follows.
> 
> -Dark eldar (self centered ass hats)
> 
> ...


_Sssh_, you're going to ruin the fun with common sense! :secret:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Tobacco said:


> I agree. The 40K universe would be more interesting if the belligerents weren't so obviously pitted. Instead of the dynamic we have now, it would be better to have multiple human and alien factions that aren't all obviously evil/good or hell bent on destruction... Make them competitive and rationally independent with different motives and strengths and weaknesses. One plot-line that I heard would have been the Ultramarines and the Ultramar Realm splitting off from the Imperium and starting a new, "pure" rule free of the corruption that is crumbling the Imperium. That would be a cool dynamic, but I don't think it would happen.


 
That's the basic plot for the Badab war. Luft Huron attempts to create a realm that is completely under his control and expands the imperium by 23 worlds. The problem is that his hubris is so great that he forgets he is a subject of the imperium, not the all powerful ruler that he thinks he must be in order to achieve his goals. As his realm starts to fall apart and worlds and resources start slipping, he reacts badly and splits away from the imperium, witholding tithes and resources in order to build his military stronghold. What I really don't agree with in this storyline is that Luft and the Astral Claws fall into Heresy or to chaos. I think you could revolt against the administratum without turning against the Emperor and his ideals.

IA9 and IA10 have one of the better plot lines in WH40K imho. However, they do not have the depth of character building that a series of novels could produce.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Durant said:


> This ^^ ^^
> 
> Take the awesome Heresy books for an example. One story sticks out where the Space Wolves join forces with some humans on a world to battle their enemies. At the end of the battle when the Space Wolves help achieve victory the humans realise the SW are there to bring them into the imperium and when they refuse the SW massacre them.
> 
> ...


Go read the story of how the US "liberated" the Philippine people from Spainish rule. Then, after the Spainish left, the US told the locals that they were now under American rule. It didn't go over so well. The freedom fighters had traded one master for another.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Zion said:


> And it's posts like this that keep bringing me back to Heresy. Very nice.


He just restated what had already been posted. 

I disagree that Chaos is a Religion of Evil. In some interpretations it's more of a religion against Order and Stagnation. Chaos wants to see the universe lose its rigid structure and become an endlessly changing environment, like the warp itself. The warp entities also strive for identity and power to remain. Although they are 100% endless change in the beginning, they long to have lasting identity and self-awareness, a small sliver of order.

Evil, I would define as the denial of your own beliefs and going against what you and others believe is the most beneficial. The worst evil is betrayal of love and breaking of oaths of loyalty, hence the power of the story of Horus and Ra that has been rewritten a million ways. The fall of the morning star, the betrayal of Horus, Cain slaying Abel, Eve betraying Adam, Judas betraying Jesus, Brutus and Cesar, Samson and Delila, etc...


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

I'll never believe any argument that says that factions like the Orks or the Tyranids aren't evil because 'it's just how they're built'. Something can be inherently evil, and a race which thrives on war, which takes joy in the slaughter or thousands, is evil in my book. I don’t care if how they survive, that they do it not only without remorse, but with the joy in the act, makes them evil in my book. This goes most of all for the Dark Elder.

Edit:


jaysen said:


> He just restated what had already been posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's considerably more to Chaos than that. They take joy in causing pain and suffering in others, so much that they gain is through scrifising from others, and the ones that aren't filled with hatred or bloodlust tend to be inteligently malicious. Again, they are aware of what they do and enjoy it. That equalls evil in my book.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Are ants evil? They intentionally wipe out all life near their hives. It is mother nature at her best. One group strives ahead and becomes more successfull and therefore, its neighbors must decline to make room. Evil is a moralistic judgement based on a system of beliefs of right and wrong. If I were trapped in a room with a hungry tiger, would I think it is evil? No. But, that wouldn't stop me from killing it to protect my own life.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

The difference for a tiger is that it doesn't kill for joy, it kills for hunger, or our of fear. These things don't make something inherently evil. What makes the Orks and DE different is that they're fully aware of what they're doing, and choose to continue without remorse.

To me, the Tyranids represent a collective intelligence (far greater than that of an ant) and they choose to consume to excess, regardless of who they kill in their path. The hive mind could just select planets with no higher life, but it has no qualms about whipping out civilisations.

Yes, evil is a moral judgment based on our belief. But to say that we, intelligent beings, can't have a say on what is evil and what isn't is basically an excuse for ignoring any kind of morality.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Ever see a tiger kill when it isn't hungry? Or, a house cat kill and then play with a dead mouse? They kill for fun and to satisfy instinct just as much as to eat.


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

jaysen said:


> If I were trapped in a room with a hungry tiger, would I think it is evil? No. But, that wouldn't stop me from killing it to protect my own life.


Not the tiger, but the asshat that stuffed you in the room is undoubtedly evil and more than likely had at least one encounter with Bond.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

Jayson: I make a habit of avoiding Tigers, hungry or otherwise.

I can't occupy a house cat's mind, so why it does this and does it enjoy it, I can't tell you. But potentially, this is an evil act. Being a house cat doesn't exempt it from this.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Coldshrike said:


> The difference for a tiger is that it doesn't kill for joy, it kills for hunger, or our of fear. These things don't make something inherently evil. What makes the Orks and DE different is that they're fully aware of what they're doing, and choose to continue without remorse.


You think a tiger isn't fully aware of it's actions? The brain is programmed to reward acts of killing in predatory animals. This is how it conditions animals to want to hunt and kill. 

Orks are aware that they are fighting however, they are biologically programmed to enjoy this act, to seek it out and indulge in it. Further they are societally programmed to enjoy it, as it builds a stronger more unified Ork society. Is it evil to try and better yourself and your people, or to do what you were born to do?

Dark Eldar are much the same. They do not view humans as equal to themselves. Think of the slaughter we enact on a daily baises to creatures that are lesser than ourselves. How many animals do we readily sacrifice to save a single human life? In the mind of a DE this is exactly the same.



> To me, the Tyranids represent a collective intelligence (far greater than that of an ant) and they choose to consume to excess, regardless of who they kill in their path. The hive mind could just select planets with no higher life, but it has no qualms about whipping out civilisations.


So the hive mind is supposed to starve itself, purely to spare some creatures? Why not all creatures? Why don't the Tyranids just give up and die, as clearly the act of propogating their species is evil. 



> Yes, evil is a moral judgment based on our belief. But to say that we, intelligent beings, can't have a say on what is evil and what isn't is basically an excuse for ignoring any kind of morality.


Of course we have a say. Indeed as intelligent being we are the only ones who can have a say. However, my point is that moral judgement is subjective not that it doesn't exist or is invalid. Call the Imperium evil all you like, call the Tyranids, the Orks whoever, I don't care. My point is that from a different point of view these acts are not evil and that therefore they are not absoulute, unconditionally evil. There is no true evil. There are acts we feel are evil but they are not truely and objectively evil.



Coldshrike said:


> Something can be inherently evil, and a race which thrives on war, which takes joy in the slaughter or thousands, is evil in my book. I don’t care if how they survive, that they do it not only without remorse, but with the joy in the act, makes them evil in my book.


Humanity thrives on war. Our greatest leaps in technology have always come during periods of conflict. Humanity as a whole feels no remorse for the many acts of slaughter we have unleashed on lesser beings. The human brain is programmed to enjoy and reward acts of exertion and violence. Are humans inherently evil? I would say no, but by your reasoning...



C'Tan Chimera said:


> Evil is indeed a very subjective thing, and I think we need to settle on a definition of evil first.
> 
> MEQ, I am operating under the assumption that that you believe that if something is a necessity to carry out survival, than it is justifiable or at the very least, not truly evil.


Exactly. I am not trying to say that the Tau are evil or that the Imperium is good. I am trying to say that both have done horrific things that would likely be judged as evil under our current moral bais. I am trying to show that both have sound, logical reasons for their acts and that they are not, therefore, evil under their own moral bais. 

To restate my position. There is no true, ultimate and objective evil. 



Tobacco said:


> No, only a few races have the capacity to comprehend "good guy" and "bad guy". The reason that the forces of disorder are the forces of disorder, and hence, evil, is because they have no capacity for reason and just want to destroy everything.


The Forces of Disorder are not evil. They stand for the disestablishment of the current order. The Imperium stands for the status quo, not for Good. In my mind grouping the armies based on Order and Disorder was the best way that GW could get across the idea that there are no Good and Bad guys.



jaysen said:


> I disagree that Chaos is a Religion of Evil.


That was a simplification to sum up the worst parts of Chaos in only a few lines. Obviously, I of all people understand that there is more to Chaos than that.


Thanks to everybody who read through all that, it got a little out of hand while I was away.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

MEQ, it may be true that our race has thrived on war, but we never like it. Call me an optimist, but there's not many people who want nothing but war, and those who do tend to be bad people.

Furthermore, think how many people there actually are that is willing to torture an animal before it ends up on their plate. Sure, the conditions of many stock animals aren't what most people would want for themselves, but most people aren't willful in this, they're ignorant. And most of the people I know who do know, do what they can to change it. I've never seen somebody kill a cow any slower or more painfully than they had to. In fact, it's always the opposite.

The DE on the other hand reviel in the torture. They know exactly what they're doing, and they enjoy it all the more for it. Those are the difference, as I see them, between how we fight war compared to the orcs, and how we live compared to the DE. I know you can find an example ot two to cite at me to the contrary, but it'll take a lot more than that to convince me of something else in humanity as a whole.

And yes, this thread does have a way of... getting away from you.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

All beings use up resources and multiply. If they are successfull, they do this very well and soon there are many more of them. There are finite amounts of resources in the galaxy. So, are all the sentient species supposed to just evenly divide the planets and live in peace? This is not the way of living beings. Survival of the fittest is no joke. A species will continue to grow, eating up resources, destroying lesser beings, and crowding out those it can until another species stands up for itself and resists.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Coldshrike said:


> MEQ, it may be true that our race has thrived on war, but we never like it. Call me an optimist, but there's not many people who want nothing but war, and those who do tend to be bad people.


The vast majority of people will state that they do not enjoy war, many will in fact be telling the truth. When I said that the brain rewards acts of exertion and violence I wasn't refering to war. You know that 'high' you get after a particularly good work-out/run/whatever? That's your body saying "Good job on working so hard!". That is a holdover from humanities predatory past, a biological preprogramed response to the hunt. War is an ugly, brutal mess however many people enjoy contact sports, working out and even fighting which are the evolutionary precursors to battle. I would imagine (and this is obviously pure speculation as I have no idea how the neurochemistry of a fungal brain would work) that an Orks drive, and reward, for the actions of battle would be even stronger than our own. I would even think it possible that their brains would be programmed to release these sort of endorphins only in the event of violence/physicality. Basically Orks repalce their sex-drive with a battle-lust. Is that evil? Especially as it isn't their fault.



> Furthermore, think how many people there actually are that is willing to torture an animal before it ends up on their plate. Sure, the conditions of many stock animals aren't what most people would want for themselves, but most people aren't willful in this, they're ignorant. And most of the people I know who do know, do what they can to change it. I've never seen somebody kill a cow any slower or more painfully than they had to. In fact, it's always the opposite.
> 
> The DE on the other hand reviel in the torture. They know exactly what they're doing, and they enjoy it all the more for it. Those are the difference, as I see them, between how we fight war compared to the orcs, and how we live compared to the DE. I know you can find an example ot two to cite at me to the contrary, but it'll take a lot more than that to convince me of something else in humanity as a whole.


The thing is though that the torture element is necessary to make the soul 'tastier' and 'more filling'. Feed animals are commonly fed carefully selected diets designed to make them bulk up and be more nutritious. DE don't torture for fun (though many do enjoy it) they torture as a means to an end, namely their own continued survival. They enjoy it much as I enjoy a particularly delicious steak. 

Also, and this is just semantics, I would say most people are appathetic about the conditions of feed-farms and slaughter houses rather than ignorant.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Humanity has not thrived on war. At all. In the least.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Samules said:


> Humanity has not thrived on war. At all. In the least.


Technologically speaking it has. Numerous scientific break throughs occured as a result of the first and second world wars for example.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

More important ones occured during the completely peaceful industrial revolution.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On the topic of war.

Modern society can thrive on war do to the boon to industry and technology (Up to a certain point and only under certain circumstances), and even in the early period certain societies gained eminence through war. However there is a difference between what is best for humanity as a faceless collective progressing through industry and technology to some uncertain end, and what is best for individual humans. As war rarely leaves individuals and cultures stronger for it (maybe in regards to killing, but seeing as our race is the only dominate species our internal divisions are probably best seen as a out dated biological tendency that is now robing us of a future). 

Also worth mentioning is the hidden costs of war that makes war in the scale of 40k kinda silly as the accelerated depletion of natural resources and the damage prolonged exposure to trauma would do to a race is a unsustainable system (They would eventually deplete themselves or end in a total revolt). I mean do you know how quickly entire worlds would be left unlivable in a all out war senario were everyone is a genocidal idiot with access to space age technology? Its a lot less then 100 years I can tell you that much. In fact many have speculated that the increased damage potential of a sentient race as it move up the technological scale is a ultimate limiting factor on aggression. For we haven't even reached space yet, and even now we are starting to limit our selves to small skirmishes, and shows of force against militarily inferior countries. The cold war thought us a valuable lesson and that is true war is a luxury that any race beyond the atomic, and event the computer age can not indulge in.

Also war simply increases the speed of technological and industrial development, but it also retards the development of none essential technology for many years following a war. Besides the trade off is kinda horrible when you consider the rapid depletion of material, and damage to cultures and ecosystems. 

Hell I would venture that the greatest gains of war are when it shows us how stupid we are. (ex People finally actually leaving Jewish people alone in many communities, and the refusal to let group commit genocide based on their own retarded ideological leanings>).


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

I always thought the greatest gains to war were the leaps and bounds in aviation and comunications, especially the internet. It's a great irony really, so many technologies like these were created for war, but without them we could never have the global society we have today. It's brought us all together in more ways than you can imagin.


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