# Space marines background power



## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

Anyone else think that space marines and especially terminators should cost more but be as amazing as they are in stories for although it would suffer teething problems it would sure make them more interesting and a more potent force=]


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Look up Movie Marines ala WD 300... an unofficial version of Marines where they are 150pts a model at WS5 BS5 Str6 T6 W3 I5 A4 LD10 with Assualt 4 Bolters and CCW that have Rending..


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

i'm with bishop, if you want to do it, use those rules, otherwise the codices are fine, they let you field armies, rather than squads, of marines.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

lol meh well not that powerfull obviously but closer to their background, obviously 100 men to one space marine doesnt sound to realistic but you know what I mean=]


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

By there background they ARE that powerfull. In "Warriors of Ultramar" Captain Ventris helps a common man get his truck unstuck by lifting the back of a fully loaded truck out of the hole that it was stuck in and putting it back on a road. In the Space Wolf series of books Ragnar is described often as jumping into groups of humans and using his bulk and power armor to crush humans. 

The Iron Snakes books depicts a combat squad cleansing an entire village of 200-400 cultists.

It should be nie impossible for a regular human to take out a marine in anything less than 10 on 1 combat.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

*Marines power*

I think that at least terminators should become more powerful they are depicted as nigh impossible to kill thanks to their armor i know they used to be 800points a squad but tbh that the way they should be, greatest warriors of the Imperium deserve to be powerful=D or at least harder to kill than they are at the moment


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

and by the way could I have a link to a website with the issue 300 rules=] I lost mine some time ago lol


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

I dont have a link to any website that I know of.. They were initially listed in White Dwarf 300 if I remeber right.. I would google "movie marines" or "300 marines". If you have Armybuilder v3.1 you can get the Movie Marines download from AB40K.org.

Some old rules for terminator armor is you roll for 3+ on 2D6.. you had to roll double 1s to fail your armor save


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

lol ok thanks I'll download army builder If I can find it but yeah double 1's I mean pretty hard to kill one aye?


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

but that was back in the day when the strength of a weapon mofidief the save, so its not as amazing as it sounds, still awesome tho.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

No way.

No other army would stand a chance. Period.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

I think marines should be slightly more powerful, but as a SM player super-marines would mean i could only field maybe one squad, that's very boring and rubbish.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

I most definitely agree. I've been reading warrior brood and theres a treminator in that and he was able to hold back masses of tyranids whilest his team get in the thunder hawk. I really think terminator should give strength and toughness bonuses just beacuse the shear bulk of the armour in my opinion terminators aren;t done justice in the table top game compared to what you read in books.


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## FrozenOrb (Dec 23, 2006)

Forget what the novels say, if they were 100 times a man, for instance a Conscript they would be 400 points each, or 600 points each if referring to a Guardsman.There are times (too many) when the Gaunt's Ghosts were ridiculously overpowered. If you want more powerful SM there's GK or have armies with pimped out Veterans etc.


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## MoopMoop (Nov 13, 2007)

FrozenOrb said:


> Forget what the novels say, if they were 100 times a man, for instance a Conscript they would be 400 points each, or 600 points each if referring to a Guardsman.There are times (too many) when the Gaunt's Ghosts were ridiculously overpowered. If you want more powerful SM there's GK or have armies with pimped out Veterans etc.


Or playing a godzilla tyranid list and having marines as "count as..." :suicide:


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

Well say they were simply more powerful so they were closer to their background, terminators definatly need a massive boost, the dark angels terminator squad defeated an entire planet of nids, not really possible in the current rules, obviously not that powerful but surely more powerful.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

terminators should at least have toughness 5 so should space marine HQ's, Elites could be better than they currently are, or have access to more skills than the current 3. lastly, Dreadnoughts need to actually be fearsome. they could be considered Monsterous creatures with armor and invulnerable saves.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

I personally always thought that "Power Armor" and "Terminator Armor" should up a models stats in the same way that Tau Stealth Suits and Crisis Suits do. Lets face it.. terminator armor has gotten the shaft in recent codexes.. Terminator armor used to be the shizznit. Heck they talk in fluff books about entire buildings collapsing on a model in terminator armor and they just get up as if nothing happened. Another reference has a Titan accidentally stepping on one and when it raises its foot find the Terminator just made a huge indention in the ground and the guy gets up just fine.

Power Armor gives +1 Str and +1 Toughness to a max of 5 on each.. Space Marines in Power Armor should be upped in cost by 6pts a piece (per creature design rules for point cost).

Terminator Armor gives +2 Str and +2 Toughness to a max of 6 on eachand Terminators with a Power Fist strike in Init order as Power Fists were inititially designed to be weilded by models in terminator armor.. Space Marine Terminators and Terminator armor upgrade should be increased by 17pts per model.. 


So now you have scouts out there in their skimpy un powered carapace armor, Space Marines in their powered Power Armor, and Terminators terrorizing in their Terminator Armor.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

To frozen orb armored space marines are supposed to be worth 10 armed guardsmen so thats not quite 600 points but its still excessive yes=] I think GW should either release some fluff on why space marines aren't what they used to be or up them even ever so slightly=]


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## FrozenOrb (Dec 23, 2006)

Whoops you're right it's 1 for 10, not 1 for 100, my bad.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

=] nps lol I made the mistake earlier its 100 unarmed men


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## chaplin_magnus (Oct 1, 2007)

just remember that a squad of deathwing wiped out a genesteller infestation.


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## Frostbite (Oct 17, 2007)

Well, if we're going to go along this line of thinking...

Tau Battlesuits should be at least Str 7 and count as power weapons or monstrous creatures in hand to hand combat. They're twice as tall a Marines and quite a bit heavier, they're even as big as dreadnoughts and some Tyranids. All weapons should fire twice as often and be usable in hand to hand if so desired. In addition, all suits get hit and run. Fits the fluff, the model and the basis for why Tau have Crisis Suits in the first place.

I say, keep things as they are. If we went by fluff, Guardsmen with names get a 3+ invulnerable, Ork Boyz cost 2 points, Terminators could take a Railgun slug to the chest and laugh, any model without a name has BS2, and the Eldar beat all. Seriously, ignore 90% of the fluff when playing the game.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

Sure but space marines should hit more with there semi automatic weapons, there would obviously have to be changes to all races e.g Tyranids even more numerous but cheaper to incorporate the massive amounts of firepower coming an army of semi automatic weapons, we can say other races aren't as good as they are in fluff but seriously non of them compare to the downgrading of space marines.=] Heavy bolters should be closer to what they are in DoW as well firing alot


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Frostbite said:


> Well, if we're going to go along this line of thinking...
> 
> ... Guardsmen with names get a 3+ invulnerable... any model without a name has BS2...


This is possibly the most important comment anyone has ever made ever about how the rules for 40k might work compared to the fluff. It's so true; I suggest you should be able to buy a 'name' as an upgrade for any model, immediately confering a WS+3, BS+2, T+2, Init+2, Ld11 and 3+ (maybe 2+?) invulnerable upgrade. Any 'named' model has these upgrades; no model that you didn't take the upgrade for (even IG commanders) can be referred to by name. Any attempt to do so immediately summons warp creatures who drag him into the void (instant death, no save). Oh, I dunno, +80pts (that's just a random guess)?


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

the dragging back to the warp a little dramatic=] but to incorporate space marines being uber powerfull, which would mean making everyone as good as they are in back history which would make WH40k a much closer game to its settings etc


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

I really think yes, marines need a boost, termies could use a little more, i dunno i feel vets getting +1ws and/or +1 bs would do them alot of justice, they are suppost to be the best of the chapter, so why not have something in their stat line to show it, and with terminators i would say possibly T4(5) would be a good thing for them, showing the termy armor really adding something to the marine, 2+/5+ save is good, but still doesnt do the terminators justice, just imo


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Vetrens probably should get stats bonuses, as without them traits can make other SM just as good, and terminators, while good , should be beter, T 4(5) sounds good.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

Perhaps as GW wouldn't be to inclined to change the current rules which are deemed balance maybe a game like Space hulk with the terminators as super cool as they are supposed to be in that aspect of war=] It'd be a fun game without the hassle of a full army and would be good for scenarios e.g you could play it before a game especially apocalypse and the winner gets an advantage in the full game=]


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Hmm It would be pretty cool to have super powered sm but if you did the game'd need to be changed massively to balance it


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## WoRLoKKeD (Apr 1, 2008)

This all hangs on the balance, though, of basing the game on the books that were put out to give more depth to the game. Kind of going full circle and an exercise in redundancy, if you ask me. 

The thing is that stories are full of drama and superhuman feats, whereas a good game has to strive to at least give the impression of trying to be balanced.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

cerrakoth said:


> Well say they were simply more powerful so they were closer to their background, terminators definatly need a massive boost, the dark angels terminator squad defeated an entire planet of nids, not really possible in the current rules, obviously not that powerful but surely more powerful.


First off, NO army needs a "massive boost", The game allready suffers from balance issues. Second, All of the fluff has that particular race as the uber warriors of doom. Read a dark eladr book, they are hidiously powerful and can't be beaten. Read a tyranid book, they can't be killed. Read a tau book, see what happens?

Space marines rules do represent their overall power level relative to the other races.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

They have a gvame for this I'm pretty sure already - it's called INQUISTOR played with larger scale and more realism


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Nice thread necromancy on this one. I am pretty sure that there would be no way to effectively represent marine fluff power levels without changing the entire point balance of the game to bring the whole game in line with fluff as well.

That being said, I wish Terminators were better. They were my favorite miniatures in 2nd Edition (when I first truly started playing 40k) and I would like for them to feel as invulnerable as they felt in 2nd, even if they do wind up costing more points. That whole power fist striking at Init 1 crap sucks.

Thanks,
Howard


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

I agree with Bishop that the marines and Terminators (definatley) should have the increased stats along with a points raise. 

Even if it was just the strength that was raised on both I'd still pay the points.


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