# Dealing with a Khan Deathstar unit.....(SW advice needed)



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So I have switched from SM to SW and enjoy the change a lot. The lower tier rules that my FLGS league play at I can deal with fairly well with a RP, GH, LH list for 850 play. The problem I have is when I step up into the 1250 range and beyond. 

One of the players has a unit he calls the Doom Squad. It is Khan, Cassius, a Techmarine, and Assault Scouts bundled into a LRC. The group are beastly on the assault and even when they are bound down in CC they still are hard to beat.

I managed to pop his LRC last night with a combimelta in midfield but even then the squad managed to tear apart the rest of my army. Instead of it being LRC advances, disgorges death, loads back up and moves on. It was me unloading on it every turn while it slowly hopscotched across the board using Khan's hit and run. 

So my question is, how would the various SW players out there deal with this unit? I managed to whittle the mess down to Khan and Cassius in the end but it still took 4 turns to do so and I lost the game due to how much they rapped my other units.


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

Charge in my 2 LS with MM - blast the shite out of the Landraider (hopefully). Then rape the fuck out of what comes out with 10 Missile Launchers from my Fangs. It'd cost you alot of points to out-CC this unit so just blow the living shit out of instead!


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Bayonet said:


> Charge in my 2 LS with MM - blast the shite out of the Landraider (hopefully). Then rape the fuck out of what comes out with 10 Missile Launchers from my Fangs. It'd cost you alot of points to out-CC this unit so just blow the living shit out of instead!


This basically

Crack that LRC open with a Melta weapon, then shoot the utter crap out of what's inside with Long Fangs, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, JotWW etc etc


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

but remember list tailoring is a bad thing.:biggrin:


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I don't see it as list tailoring when this unit is what all others at the store are trying to copy while not using the same units. If I can deal with this it will help me be even with the rest of them too.

I popped his LRC then shot the crap out of everything that was in it for the next 4 turns. The saves combined with a full squad of scout meat shields was the main issue. I guess I will need to try and pop the LRC before it's midfield.

Would it better to hit the unit with kraks or frag? I was doing frags and hitting many of them against it.


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

Ahh the frag vs krak question - one I asked on here a few weeks back.

The math hammer suggests if you're trying to kill a 2+ then Frag loads to force many saves, 3+ then go with Krak.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Alright, thanks for the advice folks, the only other thing I could think of trying was sticking everything I had including my LF into transports and running from it but that is not as easy as it sounds.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree with everyone else, focus fire on it. If your going to tailor a list against it, id say do a 5 man suicide melta wolfguard squad in a drop pod. will run you 150 pts for 5 melta shots turn one. I run 3 of them dropping first turn and has failed me only once (15 shots and didnt touch the crusader or dreadknights! sadsad day!) just kill that land raider first turn and either avoid that squad with your transports or focus fire. 
LOL! a suicide squad or two and a trio of vindi's wouold wipe that unit out fast and be a lot cheeper than what he is running!
If your not planning on tailoring your list, what are you currently running?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The list I ran against him was as follows:

RP w/ CotS JotWW, Living Lightning

GH x8 w/ MotW, Meltagun, Standard, PW, Rhino
GH x9 w/ MotW, Meltagun, Standard, PW, Rhino

LF x6 w/ MLx5
LF x6 w/ MLx5
LF x6 w/ MLx5

WGPx5
Rockfist
CombiMelta x2
Droppod

I deployed two of the WGP in the rhinos with the GH, the 8 man squad also got the RP. I then DP Rockfist and the two combimelta WGP. They popped the LRC but did not survive the unit assaulting next turn.

He had the unit I have laid out, a 10man sniper ml Telion squad sitting on his objective, a plas/cc Dread, and 3 hb/mm attackbikes running solo. 

He had first round so he moved forward with the LRC then turned it sideways, popped smoke and bundled his bikes and dread up near it for cover. 

I dped and managed to blow the LRC up with Rockfist and the two Combimeltas. I tried to take out the bikes and dreads with my LF because they were exposed. The dread got stunned and the bikes took two wounds among them. That was from one LF unit. The other two unloaded on his khan squad. I had a lot of 5man hits with frag, like 8 out of the 10 and the other two only scattered a inch or two. He rolls saves and khan, cassius both took a wound and he lost one scout.....

Next turn he rapes Rockfist's little group and hit and run almost into the middle of my area. His bikes pop both the rhinos and then he is done.

I JotWW his group on my following turn and manage to take out the tech marine and a couple more scouts. One shot stuns the dread again and the other 3 manage to kill two of the bikes. The other two groups of LF again unloaded on his Khan group for a net result of 3 dead scouts. 

After that it was a few turns of his unit hopping from each LF deployment and the RP gh squad. I managed to take out the dread and the bikes during all of this. 

He splits khan away from cassius and the two remaining scouts and khan and the two units whip my LFs. This is turn four and I try to rush my objective remaining GH unit on foot to get a draw. They flub their run move, he locks them in CC with Khan and Cassius (all the scouts were dead by then) and I lose.


I just won a auction on ebay that included a dread, 5man sw termys, 10 bloodclaw, and Canis. I am wondering if I should drop the RP and Rockfist then put Cannis in with some Fen Wolves to run with. Have a dp with normal WGP to combimelta the LRC still but have Cannis with a full group of Fen Wolves for extra wounds plow into his squad. 

Do you guys think Cannis and a 15 Fen Wolves group do any real damage to that squad? 

The reason I am using his list as a baseline to build against is the simple fact that the majority of the store players have either built basic clones of this army or run armies with things designed to counter it. The counters can be just as burly to deal with as the actual unit. 

Have been doing SW since Friday so I am still figuring out the codex.

Edit: My point with this post is less give me a list ot kill him and more show me what some of the good counters to 'SuperduperCC' monster SW can provide. Shoot everything I have and then some is fairly obvious but I was wondering if SW has something decent CC wise also at the lower level point ranges.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

LOL! i still cant believe he runs scouts and not termies... but then again it puts out hits regardless.
Also did you say you shot one of his attack bikes with a missile launcher, scored a wound? It should have instakilled the bike because of the str 8 krak missile.

I think if you run 15 fennies and a cannis into its face, its gonna be bloody. Remember all of your attacks will hit on init 5. the only guy hehas that will strike at the same time is kahn. If you blow his raider up then rest assured you will get the first strike as you get a 12 inch charge. that means 45 str 4 init 5 attacks against his guys AND hitting on 3's against the scouts. the wolves will kill 7.5 scouts with those attacks. Allocate 2 or 3 attacks against the techmarine and therest against kahn and reroll wounds. that will break its back i would say. cassius will be a bigtime tarpit with his T6 and FNP, but you should win and for a lt less points than he is spending. Hell, run another fennie pack into his other scout group if you want. Dont really focus directly on that Deathstar unit accept to kill the raider, fire krak missiles exclusively and use the fangs to kill the bikes then dread. run your hunters into the scouts and kill them up close where the stealth rule means nothing.

To answer your last question, yes, spacewolves have plenty of good CC at low points. Thats what they do almost better than their range firepower. Dont use the blood claws though as they hit hard at first but thats it, they have no staying power after the first assault. Grey hunters, possibly the fennies, and wolfguard hit the hardest for cheep.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Are Lone Wolfs worth bothering with? The issue of them not being able to tag along with others makes them seem not so much but at the same time it is a lot of cheap power...

Is there a decent/cheap model out there to use as Fen Wolves? I was just using dnd minis as proxies for them the one game I used them.

The bike single wounds were from various frag hits. He runs three bikes but they are each a solo unit. I fraged them a few times while they were grouped.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Ok, makes sense, frag missiles.
Im building a fallen angels fluff army that has 100 wolves counting as demons. Im currently using hounds of chaos as my wolves. ten to a box for $35ish
If you have the points to spare on the lone wolf, theres a few worth while builds for him.
Run him base with mark of the wulfen for 35 points. nets him 2-8 attacks depending on the situation. Eternal Warrior, FNP, and rending isnt too bad :grin: throw in 2 wolves for extra attacks and wounds and it comes only to 55. 
Or you can make him a heavy hitter with termie armor, storm shield and either a hammer or chain fist. fist being better for armor and hammer better for non armor because it makes them hit the same time as you. throw in 2 wolves and its 105 points. Im a huge fan of the chain fist/shield/termie dude with 2 wolves myself.

Oh, but the only issue with running lone wolves is the competition among the elite slots. You have wolf guard who usually come out on top, and wolf scouts who can hit hard if you wanna flank the side and hit those units who camp in the back. a 5 man squad with melta bombs and a melta gun is usually prefered from what ive seen, and all for110 pts


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

The main thing in avoiding Cassius/Khan deathstars is denying them the charge. So krak their vehicle or bait them with a unit they need to leg a bit to assault. Remember that Hit&run doesn't apply if a unit has been wiped out! It lets you break from exisitng combats.

That done, plet them with enough fire tocause a few casualties, then assault at the first chance. Don't wait and risk getting pounced, or they'll ge ttheir momentum back.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I am assuming it just foot slogs across the board then. 

Couple more questions 

Does the str bonus for frost blades stack if they are dual wielded.

If I put Logan into a droppod with Long Fangs would his ability to award relentless to them mean they could fire their weapons when they jumped out of the pod?

Sorry for all the questions, I have been trying to cram as much knowledge into my skull as possible while doing work and whatnot. I like this codex, I was stumbling playing the normal SM codex and this one has a lot more forgiveness to it. That and the whole viking theme appeals to me. I am trying also to hammer out a 'non SW Grey' color scheme to use on the minis that is 'vikingish' if that makes any sense.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Sephyr said:


> The main thing in avoiding Cassius/Khan deathstars is denying them the charge. So krak their vehicle or bait them with a unit they need to leg a bit to assault. Remember that Hit&run doesn't apply if a unit has been wiped out! It lets you break from exisitng combats.
> 
> That done, plet them with enough fire tocause a few casualties, then assault at the first chance. Don't wait and risk getting pounced, or they'll ge ttheir momentum back.



Hmm, in other words I should have packed up shop with those long fang units and moved them as he got close. I didn't buy transports for any of them but I am thinking I might have to see if I can squeeze the points enough to make the whole list more mobile.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

LOL! Read the FAQ's on the GW site. Both those questions are in there but more over, they have more questions in there. Not meaning it rudely. To answeryour questions, the 2 frost blades do not stack, and yes, you can drop pod a group of long fangs and shoot anything once logan gives them relentless. I tend to stick with the guard podded in with the combimeltas though as it is WAY cheeper and i focus fire on the vehicle. But thats just what I do. 
You know you can drop in Arjac and a rune priest, score a wound with the arjacs hammer in shooting and then Jaws the victim as he is now init 1? thats why i mention the FAQ, there are a few other ideas in there too worth looking at


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The TH Stun thing applies to JotWW, wow did not know that. Hmmm I had read the FAQ, granted it was really late when I did. I need to read it again then, do they have printer friendly versions of that stuff somewhere?


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Not a clue. Its in PDF format so i think so. LOL! Downloaded a few FAQ's on my phone actually last night


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Alright, I think that's it for the questions until I get my ebay minis later this week and can sit and look at everything at once. Then I will try and work out a list or two and toss them onto the list forums. It's too bad they haven't made any Thunderwolf models yet, I think Cannis, a Iron Priest on a TH and maybe a couple of TWC would be a fun little unit to tool around with. 

Thanks a lot for the tips/advice/info ppl.


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## cobra.commander (May 8, 2010)

just a quick question...have you ever considered thunderwolf cavalry? 

Another thing you can do is pop his transport, the charge his stupid squad with a dreadnought. Maybe I missed it, but Cato, Kahn, and a bunch of scouts will have a hard time dealing with a venerable dreadnought...especially if they don't have combat tactics anymore. That's what we used to do with guys like that....you're close combat nightmare unit cant do crap against AV 12 > Eat Hydrolic Close Combat Weapon! btw where in Western New York are you located? Anywhere around the Buffalo area?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I just picked up the Cannis model and another dreadnaught on Ebay. I will give the TWC a try now that I have a model of the right size to figure out proxies with. If I like how they run I will then get more 

I can't remember if he has anything in the group that would handle the dread beyond all the power weapons and fists. It is a good idea, maybe three droppods so I can have two come down, one with the WGP to combimelta and one with a Dread to nuke it and be a threat they have to move away from or assault. 

I live near Ithaca, the guy with the Khan unit is a Cornell student.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

his unit will all have krak grenades - but hitting & glancing on 6's against a walker shouldn't be that scary. You may also expect a single powerfist in that unit as well as I believe scout seargants can take them.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Kahn also has the hit and run rule doesn't he? The dread would be more than a match for his squad but it won't tie it down. I'm thinking that telion rocket squad will harm mr dread too


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Crap, my post was eaten.

In a nutshell, what I suggested was to take Logan Grimnar and put him in a Long Fang squad with a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor with a cyclone missile launcher. Then let 7 missile launcher shots per turn with tank hunters do the talking. I doubt the Land Raider would survive two turns of that sort of firepower.


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## cobra.commander (May 8, 2010)

if you're just going to put a wolf guard with a cyclone missile launcher with long fangs...you don't need to take Grimnar...Honestly, a list like this wouldn't change what I take at all...Just a butt load of greyhunters kitted with meltas, standers fists and pweapons, in rhinos...maybe 1 sacrificial one in a drop pod...then, dreadnoughts, MM wielding speeders, and a vindicator or long fangs. basically I'd pop the transport early...then zoom around in my vehicles, melting everything else...then when they are isolated...attack...then again, I've never had a guy play that kind of list against me...hope that helps, if not, like I said Twolf cavalry...just make sure they all have different equipment, so that you can spread the wounds around...janky, but so is playing 2 special characters in a land raider!


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Three special characters  It has a techmarine kitted for CC also. The LRC I think I can pop turn one on average with drop pods and other options. It's just the CC monster it holds that is the major issue. My ebay stuff should show up today and it will give me a couple days to tool up a list before Sat's game. I probably will play someone else but seeing LRs in 1250 games is common at the store.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

the dreadnought will work - turn one put his attacks into khan to remove that pesky hit & run. Next turn single out the techmarine to remove his Pfist & you're laughing at what is left - Of course I'd leave Cassius for last since his existance makes his unit fearless - giving you extra wounds when you squish a scout or two.

The dreadnought also has the ability to pop the tank with both a melta & his fists.

I wouldn't be too worried about a single BS4 rocket shooting at my dreadnought - if you drop pod it / screen it with a rhino or something they should only be able to get a single turn or two of shooting at it. This is a 150ish point change to your existing list that adds multiple dimensions - as opposed to making a big change for TWolves or as Katy suggested the 7missile grimnar pack - incidentally Cobra.Commander - you need grimnar to give tank hunters - 7 x S9 krak missiles into a land raider can do something meaningful, 7 x S8 not so much - you can only glance & POTMS kinda neutralizes most of those effects...


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## cobra.commander (May 8, 2010)

AH! tank hunters!!!! I always forget he does that


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Techmarine isn't really scary - one Power Fist attack, that cannot have it's attacks boosted by charging or CCWs and is not affected by Khan's FC.

I think that killing it in just a few turns is important - if you wear it down to two models it becomes a lot more difficult to kill because of Cassius and majority toughness rules. 

Long Fangs will work wonders here, just like they do everywhere else, and Las/Plas Razorbacks should dismantle it fairly quickly.

Not a lot else to say that wouldn't be repeating other people, so I'll cut off here.

Midnight


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Hmmm swing by the store after work and play against an Eldar army tomorrow, this should be different  Never played against them before. I figure RP, GH, LF spam ftw should work.


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