# Elves - Dark or High?



## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

Afternoon heresy, i am here once again asking for your help, this time its on army choice and composition though. I am currently stuck with a rather limited model budget due to many unforseen circumstances but am wanting to branch out into a new army for fantasy. one that i havent done before or really spent any time with game wise.

I have narrowed the choices down to High Elves or Dark elves. Dark elves i have never done in game or painting terms really and have some cool ideas for conversions in my head, high elves i have dabbled with before and really do like their models.

What i need help with though is choosing between these two. I could really do with some help from experienced gamers as to which army suits which playstyle? as im looking for something new from my empire armies of old. Which army has the most conversion potential? as i love to convert and paint more than game. And although this may sound a little cheap, which army has the potential for the nastiest unit/combo/character in the game out of the two options? as i have a habbit of being beaten in the games i do play and would like to actually stand a chance against my opponents sometimes.

Cheers in advance for any help
Liam


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I'm no way an experienced gamer by any stretch, but I would plum for the High Elves if I where you just on looks alone, I think the High Elves when painted right look fantastic on the table and have some serious close combat units like those White Lion guys, very nasty


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Dark Elves require a little more finesse to use correctly, but can be just as, or way nastier. They do require more models, but I think they're way cooler. However, that's something you can decide for your own by looking at the models, but they have a really brutal playstyle.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Dark Elves are one of, if not the most powerful army around so far. They have a cheapish Lord who can stall an enemy unit all game, while being able to fly to choose his unit to stall, they can get cheap hordes of spearmen, whose poor stats are mitigated by easy access to Shadow Magic, Hydras are still undercosted, The Sacrificial Dagger breaks the limitations of winds of magic, crossbowmen are nasty enough normally, and Shadow just makes them nastier, slowing enemies, making them weaker, while said access to Shadow Magic means that you can just decide to lower the enemies initiative before dropping a pit of shades onto them, before watching 2/3rds of most elite units fail their save or die rolls.

Modelwise; the newer elven kits are pretty spectacular. The older ones; i.e all the core, are fairly poor in comparison. Sadly, neither book is due a refurb soon (although both armies do need it), but that can be a plus if you are starting a new force.

In short; if you don't mind losing friends, play Dark Elves in the most broken. If you go for something less powerful; i,e Shades, Cold One knights, witch elves, etc, they can be fun to play against, and indeed to play. High Elves; they can be boring; they are now what? 6 years old next year? Everyone has played them, and knows their typical tricks.

I've been working around dual Lore of light list, and used to play a Dragon list. for a little while. Until I came up against 3 cannon lists.


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

As someone who has played both for many years - here are my thoughts. 

They are both very competitive - the top 4 armies in 8th in my opinion are skaven, lizardmen, high elves, and dark elves. 

They both have very strong magic phases - between the lores they can pick and special rules/items. Dark elves will probably dominate a bit more but if you go book of hoeth route then high elf magic is literally unstoppable. 

Playstyles - they are both elite, super-fast, close combat/magic armies. You will often be outnumbered. They each have a combat crutch (High elves have asf - they always strike first and reroll hits if their initiative value is equal to or greater then the opponents)(Dark elves have hatred - rerolling all hits in the first round of combat). They way I look at it is that dark elves usually hit first and always reroll hits, and high elves always strike first and usually reroll hits. Elves are t3 across the board - meaning they can't really take a hit. They also have super puchy combat units like swordmasters, black guard, white lions, dragon princes, cold one knights, hydra, etc. 

Dark elves, in my opinion, have a very potent magic gunline - lots of crossbowmen and 2+ sorceresses. They can also do a fast army with cold ones and hydras, and an infantry combat army with black guard. 

High elves are more one-dimensional and almost all sucessful lists involve archmages, spearelves, and the 3 elite infantry units - White Lions, Phoenix Guard, and Swordmasters. Their archers suck and are generally not used. 

High elves are probably cheaper because they have more plastics and the IoB set. Both are very good however. 

Hope this helped.

Edit - Darn. Ninja'd twice


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Secret option c, wood elves 

Competitiveness is overrated anyway...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think painting wise, Dark Elves are a lot more forgiving than high elves.


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## Septok (Jan 21, 2012)

Like painting white? High elves. Like painting black? Dark Elves. 

Fluff-wise, I find them better than Eldar and Dark Eldar, though that's neither here nor there. Both armies are open to conversion, but I'm no expert in that field. 

Dark Elves have Black Guard and Sac Daggers. High Elves have 15pt Specials and Teclis. If you go insane with magic in a HE list, you'll do very well (at least in magic). The same goes for DE, but I would hazard saying not as much. 

For cheap builds, the old Spears and Sac Dagger for DE can be very cringey - you get a good bunker for a Sorceress and cheap power dice. HE get some very good units as well though - Lions, Phoenix Guard and Sword Masters all kick butt. And, of course, Teclis. Take him and, assuming he doesn't die quickly, you'll dominate magic phases. 

That said, I've been reading that HE are due an update sometime next year (before DE and WE), around Spring. It really comes down to your own preference - I can't fully advise, though I voted for HE because neither army has too much difficulty available in the right hands and it's always good to see others joining the Asur. Either way, happy murdering/slaying/smiting/elving with your (hopefully) upcoming army.


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## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

evenin all, thanks for all the feedback so far. alot of you seem to be leaning more towards dark elves for many reasons, all of which i have taken on board so thankyou there.

Reading around alot of the threads here on heresy and elsewhere i hear/read alot of people on about a couple of dark elf character builds, mainly a 'unkillable' lord guy and a dagger sorceress. I get the dagger lady but im curious about the dark elf lord builds.

I have a cool conversion in my head for dark elf lord on manticore using the chaos manticore kit and this is one of the reasons i was thinking dark elves, i have some cool ideas in my head for conversions. would a manticore lord work as the build? or would it be too different adding the manticore as a mount option?

Cheers
Liam


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Basically, the unkillable guy has 3 T4 wounds with a 1+ Armour Save, a Ward Save equal to that of the result of the too wound dice, and Asf with 4 Armour Piercing I7 S5 Attacks hatred, an extremely small frontage, while Stubborn Ld10 (and likely a BSB nearly) keeps him immovable. Being on a flying steed, he can just pick an enemy unit and grind it there for the entire game.


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## siovim (Nov 7, 2012)

I only have high elves and for good or bad never played a DE army. So my opinion is naturally that HE are better, because thats my army. If its boring to just paint white, go for green, light blue or red as basic colour. it looks really nice, and i could imagine it would work well with the DE as well, if you don't want an evil looking army. As the HE lord i concerned dress him up with shield, GW or something other nasty things, armour of caledor and vambraces of defence or guardian phoenix with a crown of command and mount him on a griffin, and you get quite near to match that DE lord. 4 Afs WS 7 In 8 (re-roll against most enemies) str 6, with a 2+ arm save with re-roll and a ward save on 4+. Leadership 10 and stubborn. Think that's almost an match for the DE


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## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

thanks again for all the input guys, i've been looking around teh webs for conversions and armies for both races and have seen some pretty amazing stuff. and to be honest its got me itching to build/convert.

Most armies i have seen for DE include a cauldron of blood, is this a necessity to be competetive or just a personal choice? because i dont really like the current model and don't know how i would go about converting something i do like.

And on the subject of HE and core, i hate the HE spearmen models but people seem to say the archers are rubbish now and nothing compared to the DE repeater guys. is this true? does the DE have a better selection for core??

Sorry to keep pestering with questions i just wanna make this choice right cos i have limited funding for this one and dont wanna go getting an army that i won't like the look of down the line converting/painting wise or that i won't be able to win games with. to this end im leaning towards DE but am still unsure atm

Cheers
Liam


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Yes. High elf core is pretty shoddy. Seaguard are overpriced, archers just suck (compare them to glade guard or repeater crossbowmen - ugh) and spearmen are expensive. 

You need 25% core though, so most people take a block of spearmen of so and call it game. 

DE core is much better. Spearmen for them are cheaper, and oft used as a sacrificial dagger battery. Crossbowmen are in the running for best core in the game and while corsairs are overshadowed by their special amigos, are halfway decent. 

Cauldrons are not a nessecity for DE - but they are quite good. Very resilient and can hold their own in combat. If khainite units were better the cauldron would be uber-boss, but as it stands it is competitive. That is probably the best thing, in my opinion, about the druchii - almost all units they have are competitive - with few exceptions - executioners.


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## siovim (Nov 7, 2012)

True about, that the only core of the HE who are worth anything are the spearmen, but a regiment of 30-40 with some magic boost in strenght are frightning to fight against. Four ranks of attacks gives you about 20 - 26 attacks with a re-roll if you don't send them against elite units. At a strenght 4 i wouldn't like to be the one of the wrong side of the spears. Expensive, but always fight their points back for me. The HE infantry special choices are amazing, can litteraly smash up every other unit in the game. Their cavalry is expensive and in most cases useless and the shadow warriors are way to useless to cost 16 pts a man. The Eagle claw bolt thrower is nice when mixed up with the curse of arrow atraction and the eagles are the cheapest artillery hunter for the HE. All in all infantry and magic is the way, and with the rest you have to be very careful where you fight else you get smashed


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Big thing warning away from High Elves is that you'll be a little constricted in what you can take for competitive reasons apart from their special infantry. Like the above have said, there's some pretty bad units. Now, if there is a new book lying over the horizon as some have theorized, then that might change, but for now, Dark Elves are the choice with a lot more freedom. Both have some really rape magic items though.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I play with both armies, enjoy both.

I park the magical cheese bus with the High Guys though, lots of people dislike and discourage this, however.


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

A quick word about magic - 

High elves are pretty boss here - well actually Teclis and the Book of Hoeth are. These will be banned some places and a lot of people look down on them. I never leave home without the book myself though. 

Dark elf magic is unique in that it scales to the size of the game. At like 2k you can see thier magic phase is strong, but at like 5k it is ridiculous. They are the only race where taking more that 2 mages isn't usually a waste of points. If you so choose, you can dominate the magic phase so much it isn't even funny. 

Like more people have said - the three special units are what make HE good. However, the fact that they are top tier or right below it shows you just how good they are. 

Not to hijack the thread - but I don't want a new book in the spring. None of the 8th ed books have been spectacular and while I want white lions riding lions (no homosexuality here) I know they'll but out half my magic items and hit Teclis with a (admittedly deserved) nerf stick and nerf speed of asuryan down way too far. Just sayin'


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## siovim (Nov 7, 2012)

But then again we could hope for better archers and reasonable cavalry. If the book is away then it will be a big blow against our magic fase, but we will find some other nasty tricks. Wouldn't mind if the High Lore also could come with boosted spells. Flames of the Phoenix starting on 5 str.... so much for enemy elite


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## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

Hey guys, now before i begin i am not bitching in any way shape or form i would simply like to return to my original debate for a moment lol :laugh:

So without going into the possibilities of a new book and what it may hold i kinda get these points from you all;

- High elf core isn't as strong as dakr elf core
- dark elf characters can be built to be extremely annoying (unkillable lord) but HE lords can come close
- DE magic is good when used in conjuction with other units (boosts) but HE magic is just awesome (teclis and book)
- HE have seriously awesome specials but DE seem to lack abit?
- DE have a hydra and that is underpriced for its sheer awesomeitude?

right so far?

Now im not wanting to really use teclis or the book as a few of my friends have stated the absolute cheesity of said pieces of elfness. so without these two is DE magic stronger? also if im going to build an army and obviously have to have core i dont want to be stuck with sucky core simply for the chance at cool specials so HE seem to fall down there for me personally.

And now to return to the new high elf book talk, a new book would be cool if they changed the core around abit and white lion riders would be so sweet but more than anything i just want new models, for either race. the rules can be used and armies built around them but if you dont like the models its harder to work around that, but anyway, a new book for either race would be cool and long overdue.

Cheers
Liam


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

W/O the book DE magic is better. 

Also, DE specials - especially black guard, are very very good. But the high elf elites are so strong and necessary that they overshadow their dark kin. 

PS - Tell your friends to get a pair. Teclis is too god, and many people don't play him. I myself don't. Having said that, the book is very strong, but not overpowered. High elves are better at casting then dispelling - the book makes then very good at both.


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## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

DivineEdge said:


> W/O the book DE magic is better.
> 
> Also, DE specials - especially black guard, are very very good. But the high elf elites are so strong and necessary that they overshadow their dark kin.


My only problem with high elves is that whilst theyre elites are strong and look good the fact remains i still have to build a core section with models i really dont like for the opportunity to paint the models i do like. With DE however i generally like all of the models in some form just none as much as i like a few of the HE ones, so i could build an army i like the look of in general rather than an army with models i dont like in and then the select few i really like.

However before i push HE to the side and choose DE does anyone know of a way to make the HE core less sucky model wise? through other models or simple-ish conversions? and with regards to tactics can a HE army work whilst focusing on the elites and characters with the bare minimum of troops or do you still require a hardy stock of elf bodies to throw infront of your opponent?



DivineEdge said:


> PS - Tell your friends to get a pair.


hehe this made me lol :so_happy:


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I have a friend who has some good-looking High Elf core, but he had to very extensively convert them. His archers have spearmen bits, his spearmen have shaved helmets, and several other conversions to make them look better. I'm not sure about a less difficult route. He's been playing High Elves for probably around a decade.


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## siovim (Nov 7, 2012)

Here is an example of how to play without big units of HE (exept spearmen). Note if you do play with many small units, make them work together and make sure they don't fight on their own.
http://z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=25447


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## melsaphim (Jan 1, 2010)

Morning all, thanks again for the help with my queries, i have finally made the decision to go with DE, although i like the specials for the HE i don't think i could enjoy the core of that army and so it's kind of put me off personally, that's not to say they are not a good and competetive list i just prefer the look of a DE army as a whole.

I've already started work on a kitbashed DE cauldron of blood as can be seen in my log over in project logs. so here goes with what will hopefully be a cool looking and fairly competetive army, thanks again to everyone who chipped in.

Cheers
Liam


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