# Why the Matt Ward hate?



## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

There's alot of, ahem, dislike for Matt Ward in them thar hills. Now I don't want this to descend into a tirade of crap flinging in this guy's general direction, but I am curious as to what he's done that's caused everyone to take up this stance.

I haven't read the GK codex, and there are no GK players in my immediate area, but I'm aware that alot of people didn't like what he did with their fluff amongst other things. Something about a space marine who went into the warp unprotected and came back out or something?

Calm and collected answers appreciated!


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Well draigo has..

.Carved the former grandmasters name into mortarions heart
.burned down nurgles forest about a hundred times
.smashed the crystal city of tzeentch about a hundred times
.killed scores upon scores of bloodletters
.killed a bloodthirster with his bare hands and then reforged the axe into a sword
and has survived in the warp without a gellar field.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

He writes bad fluff. And nerd rage ensues.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I had little issue with him up until the GK codex. It raped alot of fluff, and since I play CD, I now have to ask my opponent if he plays GK before agreeing upon friendly game so I don't waste an hour and change of my life.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Essentially, he turns the normally cool and badass Grey Knights (among other things he writes) into something of a fanboy's fantasy.

I mean, he makes the GKs sound like flawless, invincible super-awesome, incorruptable megabeings that everything else should bow down to.

If he had just wrote down that:
Draigo was lost in the Warp, constantly struggling to control his sanity while using every ounce of his strength to battle the demons constantly assaulting him,

he would sound much more badass to me than:

a guy lost in the warp who somehow remains incorruptible even though he's been stuck there for ages, slaughtering demons left and right and destroying the Dark Gods' domains over and over again without breaking a sweat.


Flawed heroes > Perfect heroes. It makes them more believable.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

It all started with 7th edition fantasy daemons of chaos. But it got fixed in 8th edition so its all cool now.

plus he is very much a massive space marine fanboy so anything he writes that involves them makes them super human giants which are near on indestructable... Wait... That's what a space marine is, isn't it?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I have never had any problems with him, or his fluff. 

And Draigo is among my favorite 40k characters. I mean, the most badass of the badass should be pretty badass.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Yes but the chaos gods are actually supposed to be a real threat, not just something 1 GK can exterminate in his free time, in the warp, without armor and while maintaining his sanity perfectly well. And also, no chaos grey knights? wtf? They are exposed to chaos secrets that would blow a space marines mind on a reguar basis and theres only so much that chanting
TEH EMPEROR IS AWESOME CHAOS SUX
TEH EMPEROR IS AWESOME CHAOS SUX 
can help.

In short Draigo is not the most badass of the badass the chaos gods are, but he beats the chaos gods... WTF WARD!


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Samules said:


> And also, no chaos grey knights? wtf?


Thats the part which makes sense. Thats the point of them being incorruptible.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Ward, like Brian Herbert from the Dune series, is a writer that seems geared toward churning out fanfiction-level fluff for fanfic-loving fanboys, primarily. Actually achieving a good narrative or tension doesn't even cross his mind.

Also, Psychostroke grenades. And 5-point, better daemonic possession on vehicles. (sorry, I can't let it go. I tried!)


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Exactly my point, Sephyr.

Fluff should maintain a balance between making the subjects sound cool and awesome, while maintaining believability (is that even a word? XP)

MW does the first, almost in excess, but epicly fails at the second.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The biggest problem most people have with Matt Ward isn't so much that he writes bad fluff, Draigo's struggle against Chaos being futile because it acheives nothing, but that he tends to stick in little things that for a lot of people equal an auto-win for the armies he's written codcies to. For example apart from the Grey Knights having psychic powers for every situation, he's also given a unit upgrade character the ability to pick out enemy characters with shooting despite them being in a unit.

Stuff like that makes him somewhat unpopular.


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## Wingman (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree, I want more grimdark in the grimmdarkness of the far future 

I would prefer for charachters to actually show in the story that everything that happens to them is actually taxing on them. We can all assume that he wanted to convey that in the story but he needs to write about how difficult it would be to practically live in the warp and how hopeless it must feel for him to fight the same battles only for everything to go back to the way it was. This is how I imagine the chaos gods would toy with Draigo, they may let him beat the crap out of everything but two minutes after the palace is in flames and bodies litter the floor it all reforms and it's back to normal... FML!


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Samules said:


> And also, no chaos grey knights? wtf? They are exposed to chaos secrets that would blow a space marines mind on a reguar basis and theres only so much that chanting
> TEH EMPEROR IS AWESOME CHAOS SUX
> TEH EMPEROR IS AWESOME CHAOS SUX
> can help.


The grey knights where always supposed to be Incoruptible, Even before Matt ward got his hands on their fluff.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

My personal favourite wardism is The one where blood angels ally with necrons to "fight the common enemy" namely, Tyranids. Any sensible Necron commander would have said to himself; "Hey Reshef the Immortal Harvestman, these giant bugs are only after biological matter, and you and your computerized buddies are made of metal, so guess what? Zero threat!" 

See, even when I'm taking the piss I write better fluff than Ward.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

This is why I hate Matt Ward:


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Simply put, Ward is poison to the game... So in Fantasy he's;
- Turned 6th ed Wood Elves into a near auto-win button with their tree-singing shinanigans, on top of spaming killing blow waywatchers and godly war dancers. (mind you, WE's are easily the worst army in 8th now, but they are plain nasty for while there!)

- Made Orcs & Gobbos competitive for all of about 1 month in 7th, then they sucked so much ass it wasn't even funny.

- Ruined all of 7th edition entirely by writing the OP travisty of the Daemons of Chaos!!! You could give a daemon army to a vegtable and they'd win every time unless you also gave them rigged dice to make sure they lost...
His anwser when the community pleaded as to why Daemons were brokenly godly, "Well, what do you expect, *THEY'RE DAEMONS*!!!" (as if that made everything crystal clear?:headbutt

- Wrote 8th ed, which while having alot of positives has also introduced easy to abuse 'I-win' button mega spells, neutured VC's to the point they now consist of 4 or 5 units if they want to compete, the Power Scroll which had to be nerfed, Steadfast + BSB non-sense, and has utterly shelved Wood Elves since they can't compete beyond 1 set list now...

Meanwhile in 40k land, he's;
- Made mech-spam into a godly build that's making for a really stale game now. (mainly by making marine transports very cheap and very good at what they do - especially razorbacks...)

- Made Daemons un-playable in tournaments in the wrong system! (it was *FANTASY *Daemons you needed to nerf dumbass!)
GK's being all the rage for the near future, it's pretty damn futile trying to be competitve with daemons because if you run into GK's that are played by anyone with more than half a brain cell it's a Kobiashimaru senario 99% of the time...

- Wrote the Grey Knight book which has really unbalanced the game because the knights have an answer for anything & everything.
Only IG & Dark Eldar have a good amount of solid counters to the knights... Other armies either need to tailor their lists, or else just get demolished unless you know the army inside & out. (oh, and did we mention that Daemons can't even play?!?)



As for the background, Blood Angels was bad enough with their 'alliance' with the Necrons because some Tyranids showed up at the exact time the other two were beating the crap out of eachother?! (and 'nids actively avoid 'crons and their tomb worlds because they're dead!)

But the GK's sucks balls... GW had been doing an epic job of hinting and poking you into a couple of directions about the knights origins, especially with the Horus Heresy series & the Visions of Heresy books. (basically, it centers around Malcador the Sigilite & Nathanial Gharro)
Ward threw all of that out the window, and came up with steaming shite instead... Draigo was simply the final straw. In short, he ruined one of GW's better storylines for alot of people...:clapping:


It will be a blessed day when he's gone and GW can start fixing his mistakes...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

This thread again?

He ruins whatever he is put in control of.

Basically, most of what I'd change about GW finds it's origins in Matt Ward - Everything Childish and Fanfic about the hobby.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Methinks the question is: Do the rest of GW not see all these idiocies?
You, I and Everyone else can so why not them too?
And, assuming they are not blind and actually can see these glaring inconsistencies, they still allow him to publish material.
Blame the entirety of GW for this, not just Ward.

SGMAlice


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

SGMAlice said:


> Methinks the question is: Do the rest of GW not see all these idiocies?
> You, I and Everyone else can so why not them too?
> And, assuming they are not blind and actually can see these glaring inconsistencies, they still allow him to publish material.
> Blame the entirety of GW for this, not just Ward.
> ...


The big problem is that GW is driven by $$$.

Ward's army books/'dexes are above the curve or outright godly, so his stuff does get alot of the competitive players to spend lots of $$$.

Blame the value all of us stupid monkies of placed on $$$ as the real problem...


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

It would appear as if the majority of the players of this game don't give a flying fuck about the fluff and only care about winning.

Therefore, they buy Matt's dexes. Because whenever they're written, they're usually an auto-win army until the next rule edition.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Moonschwine said:


> This is why I hate Matt Ward:


That would make an epic signature if I had the tools to make it one lol


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Thats the part which makes sense. Thats the point of them being incorruptible.


As far as I understand (mind you, I haven't read all that much about the Ordo Malleus) it doesn't explicitly say anywhere they were incorruptible. Not before Mr. Mongolian decided they should be superman x 27 in power armour.



Haskanael said:


> The grey knights where always supposed to be Incoruptible, Even before Matt ward got his hands on their fluff.


Same as above.



experiment 626 said:


> Simply put, Ward is poison to the game... So in Fantasy he's;
> - Turned 6th ed Wood Elves into a near auto-win button with their tree-singing shinanigans, on top of spaming killing blow waywatchers and godly war dancers. (mind you, WE's are easily the worst army in 8th now, but they are plain nasty for while there!)
> As much as that is true, the 6th ed Wood Elves were co-written by Ward and Reynolds. And it was always a trickster's book. And very well written. The parts were it was almost godly might more be because of Reynolds who also was in charge of Bretonnia's book. Which, incidently, also was really brutal back in the day.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's what I think. There's just one thing that bothers me (or sometimes really pisses me off): His fantasy rules sucks balls. If it isn't broken beyond compare, it's shit. His 40k rules are ok. Sure, some things are ridiculous, but once they rest of the books are up to date that shouldn't be much of a problem.
His fluff, on the other hand, for fantasy, is beautiful. The WE, daemons and old On'G books are teeming with atmosphere and cool stories.
His 40k fluff is just disgusting. Rarely have I seen so much crappe been poured onto paper and sold as if it was gold. Some of it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And why the hell does he write like that? He knows how to write good fluff. I've seen it. And that's what annoys me. He isn't just some retard with a pen. He actually chooses to write shit for 40k for some reason. That's why I, and likely a lot of other people can't stand him.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

if you want a fun/true opinion(s) on Matt Ward then go Here

also it doesnt help that his new books push the bell curve more radically than other authors, like Phil Kelly, which therefore make his codexs more OP/OTP/"auto-win" and GREATLY reduce the effectiveness of older codexs, see CSMs/CDs/the-poor-toasters/Commies/BTs/etc

On the "Twilight Marines" (or Blood Angels:laugh


> Don't worry though, he ruined the fluff, too: He's also responsible for the fluff in the aforementioned Codex that has caused to announce that the Blood Angels and Necrons are totally Super Secret Pony Princess Unicorn Best Friends Forever, seeing as how Matt Ward depicts the two factions teaming up to take down the Tyranids and then peacefully parting ways afterwards.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

I don't buy this abusred BS that Daemons suck in 40k... Yes, their book is *very* limited in terms of it's viable units in competitve play, but then so are a number of other armies in both 40k & fantasy... (40k daemons are accutally alot like VC's in fantasy - only 4-5 choices from the book need apply!)
However, the competitive daemons list is plain nasty since it revolves around a Fatecrusher or Fatefiend or Fateprinces and MSU's of pinkies w/bolt & plaguebearers for grabbing the objectives. It's a hard as nails list, and a tough nut to crack with all of those re-rollable invulns. (it's basically a pts-denial 40k list!)

GK's though have come to the fore, and because they're all the rage right now and because they've been handed about a hundred plus esentially 'free' advantages against daemons speifically, it's nerfed daemons to the point it's almost impossible to compete in tournies unless you know ahead of time that not a single GK army will be present...

And okay, Ward might be able to write decent fantasy background, but his appauling crap he spews with wanton fanboy'ish abandon tends to easily overshadow that fact!


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Moonschwine said:


> This is why I hate Matt Ward:


Which bit of the Blood Angels codex would that be? The bit where it says the Blood Angels genetic defects meant they greeted like women with high fives rather than in manly full tongue kissing as the Ultramarines do or the bit where it said that the Ordos Biologos was surprised to find that when knackered Tyranid Gaunts lay down panting like dogs?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I just love these paragraphs from 1d4chan -

Is allegedly going to be doing the upcoming Codex: Black Templars. Considering the Black Templars were one of the chapters who told Rowboat Girlyman to take his codex and shove it (along with the Space Wolves and Raven Guard), and Matt's long-standing tradition of fucking over anyone who dares disparage his spiritual liege, one wonders how hard Matt Ward is going to screw the Templars over.

Is rumored to be the one to write the Codex: Necrons. Since the Necrons managed to defeat the Ultramarines in a battle once, and the fact that Matt Ward will pretty much fuck over everything he writes about, the Necrons stood in silent horror. Ohh yeah, did we forget to mention that he had the Blood Angels team up with a Necron tombworld to destroy a hive fleet of Tyranids and then they just peacefully parted afterwards? This really begs the question as to what the fuck is going on in Ward's head- does he hate the crap out of Necrons because they dare trump his Ultramarines, or does he have a secret hard-on for them since he made them best friends for life with the Blood Angels?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I find that I tend to hate the fluff that Matt Ward wrote. Here is a few examples where I dislike fluff from the GK codex as an example:

1. The GK's, despite being uncorruptable by chaos apparently NEED to sacrifice loyal Sisters of Battle to make them purer by splashing their own blood on themselves before fighting servants of Khorne. The equivalent of jumping in a nice pool of blood and then dive into the sea to go spear fishing for Mako sharks. No. Fucking. Sense.

2. The same said Sisters that get murdered do not provoke any kind of aggresion against the GK's. You know that the Sisters thought the whole act was OK and saw no reason to get pissed at all. Bullshit for a bunch of women who tell aliens to repent all the time.

3. Despite the fact that the GK's do not like anyone who allies with daemons 2 of their own characters carry weapons of daemonic origin. Draigo has a sword which by hand he managed to cast out of an axe of a Bloodthhirster. Castellan Crowe uses a daemonically possessed sword to stop it falling into the hands of chaos because it would be very bad news if it did. So he protects it by rushing into battle with it by himself.... OK the obvious question is that why is said sword not stored away? Well you see even though GK's are incorruptible (A believeable fact) the sword corrupts the mind of anyone but Crowe who watches it. WTF!?!?! We might as well throw all that incorruptible fluff out the window

4. Draigo deserves a special mention because he lacks the focus on how fultile Draigo's fight is which makes more sense than "Look at what a badass he is!!!".


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)




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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

That 1d4chan page posted earlier made my day XD


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Didn't he write something about dropping land raiders from orbit?


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Because the sad fact is, there has always been (and always will be) one "whipping boy" for internet nerd-rage over a codex/fluff/retcon/... Before Ward, it was Gavin Thorpe... Before that, Jervis was often critisized for being the weak link, etc. 

He's sorta like that fat kid in class that everybody can pick on to improve their own standing in a group. Sure, that fat kid will have his "derp moments", like everybody else for that mattter... but when he does it, people will be scoffing and laughing at it for a significantly longer time.

I'm not saying some of the critisism isn't justified (some stuff is indeed pretty bad...), but the reaction to it is often more childish then the source. 

Then again, it's a very human reaction to only see the negatives and bitch about them more then anything. As far as I'm concerned, I'm an old daemonhunter player who really likes the idea and look of grey knights. Unfortunatly, with the previous book, I was forced to make up grey knight/imperial guard hybrid armies in order to play them effectively. But fortunatly, Matt Ward made a codex that allows me to field a full Grey knight force effectively now (and it's actually fun to play them to boot, they really do feel and play quite different from other marines).


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

We're not childish you poopy-bum-face.

He does write decent rules (there are some exceptions), but his fluff is another story.


PS: I don't understand why they don't just fire Castellan Crowe's sword out of a cannon, into the sun. Problem solved.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

experiment 626 said:


> Ward's army books/'dexes are above the curve or outright godly, so his stuff does get alot of the competitive players to spend lots of $$$.


Let me ask you, what would you say are the two most powerful codices aside from Grey Knights (I exclude the Knights because you're clearly quite butthurt over what is essentially a very balanced codex).

Most people would say the most powerful armies are Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. And who wrote those? Oh wait, that was Kelley and Cruddace respectively. I don't get why people think Ward codices are overpowered when the same people bitch the most about non-Ward books- frankly the Ward codices are just as well balanced as the others; people should really quit bitching about his rules.

His fluff is god-awful though. Like, so bad I had to buy a second codex on the day of the GK release because I projectile vomited all over my first copy.



GrimzagGorwazza said:


> Didn't he write something about dropping land raiders from orbit?


Blood Angels Land Raiders have Deep Strike. Although they still mishap as normal, which doesn't make sense- If a flying Land Raider scatters on top of some termagants, I don't think the squishy space-bugs are going to give the Land Raider any problems landing... Oh well.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I seriously hope Ward doesn't get near the Tyranid fluff. I don't think I could handle anything like "The Tyranids are the extra-galactic manifestation of the Emperor, and they're trying to absorb all biological material so that the collective psychic power can destroy the chaos gods. Assuming Draigo doesn't get there first of course" That Shit would make me quit.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah and the Tyranids where just visiting their good friends the ultramarines when chaos disguised as Tyranids infiltrated and tried to destroy Macragge, the Tyranids where just trying to help the UM to repel them.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

The problem with Matt Ward is that he has a reputation... and keeps meeting it.

His rules read like fan wish-listing and his fluff can be utterly against the image people have of armies/units (eg necrons allying with BA... this from an eternally patient race that is willing wait for the right time to strike and which barely bothers to speak to anyone, let alone listen to them).
What do I mean by wishlisting:
I want a unit which...
- will fill my minimum core
- is the equivalent of a hero/lord mage
- will be able to survive against shooting/combat, better give it something like a 4/5++
- oh, what about monsters... it better be able to beat monsters in combat, they can be nasty.
- it better be cheap enough not to be deathstar points... I want to be able to fit lots of goodies around it

... and we get pink horrors (which aren't half as stupidly overpowered as Tzeencth Heralds).


But still this isn't why there is so much Matt Ward hate around. He has a reputation for writing stupid OTT rules with dodgy fluff... which he keeps meeting time after time.
Other writers may come out with a dex that isn't great or is viewed as being a little squiffy which may piss off the fans of 1 army (or incure sme wrath/envy from those playing against it), but no other author has managed to be predictable about it int he way Matt Ward has: you hear he's doing a dex/army book and get that sinking feeling...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't agree with most of the 'Mat Ward's books are invincible! Whine!' (With Fantasy Daemons being an exception).

People said EXACTLY the same thing with Dark Eldar. And guess who wrote them?

Phil Kelly?

People said EXACTLY the same thing with Space Wolves (Fuck, they still do), and who wrote them?

Phil... Kelly?

Overpowered Leafblower Guard!

Robin Cruddace.

None of those 'OP' 'Dexes were written by Ward, were they?

VT2 sums it up nicely:
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/forumitis-waaaaaaaaaard.html

I don't see why people have a problem with the man.

Midnight


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Rules wise, I don't have too much of a problem with his writing. But he should never be allowed to write 40k fluff again. He lacks the correct perspective, to the point of pants on head retarded. Honestly, I don't believe the man actually likes writing 40k fluff, and is being so bloody ridiculous in an attempt to be moved off 40k fluff and allowed to do more fantasy writing.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> I don't agree with most of the 'Mat Ward's books are invincible! Whine!' (With Fantasy Daemons being an exception).
> 
> People said EXACTLY the same thing with Dark Eldar. And guess who wrote them?
> 
> ...


You need to look at the entirety of Matt Wards work though to fully appreciate how stupid his style is.

Yes those lists might of had some iffy things that made them powerful but the writers ain't continuously spouting out rubbish when they pen something. Matt Ward simply does.

How anyone can go from writing the WHFB Daemons of Chaos List to the 40k Daemons codex is beyond me, they are like polar opposites and the fluff which should remain at the most basic similar is distinctly different.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Look at what he has done to Chaos, i know he did not write the two chaos codexes, but his writing of the Space Marines, Blood Angels and Grey Knights have given them so much fluff that in his writings make Chaos look very weak.

Matt Ward it seems went out of his way to basically neutralize Chaos.

By their very own nature if we are to assume that all is equal Chaos Space Marines and their allies Chaos Daemons should be nigh unstoppable. Look at Chaos Space Marines for example, we have Space Marines with all their previous attributes that made them a potent fighting force to be reckoned with and now they have been enhanced even further with the Powers of the Chaos Gods, but are now inferior to Space Marines on all levels and then we have Chaos Daemons that are not coporial, they exist in the rhelm of the warp of Chaos to be brought forward by summoning to pour forth in large numbers that overwhelms worlds, but a handful of Grey Knights can seemingly erradicate a world infested with billions of Chaos Daemons. Even ordinary Space Marines can kill Chaos Daemons with ordinary bolters and bolt pistols which technically should not happen.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

coke123 said:


> Let me ask you, what would you say are the two most powerful codices aside from Grey Knights (I exclude the Knights because you're clearly quite butthurt over what is essentially a very balanced codex).


Well lets expand on that- Here's a list of what I view as the strongest 5 40k dex and 3 strongest WFB army books (WFB is much more balanced):

1- Blood Angels- Ward
2- Grey knights- Ward
4- Imperial Guard- Cruddace
3- Space Wolves- Kelly
5- Dark Eldar- Kelly

1- Daemons of Chaos - Ward
2- Dark Elves- - Thorpe
3- Warriors of Chaos- Kelly

Rules/units I don't like, either because they are stupid, over-powered or just massively unfair against certain enemies (eg dark excommunication vs daemons or Ululmeathea Plasma Syphon vs tau):

Of the non-Ward books:
long fangs, jaws of the world wolf, valkyries, vendettas, manticore and Eye of the Gods

Or from Ward:
Dark Excommunication, Warp Rift, Heroic Sacrifice, Paladins, Cleansing Flame, NDK, Reinforced Aegis, Turbo-Penetrator, Nemesis Warding , Stave, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke grenades, Psyk-out grenades, Rad grenades, Truesilver Armour, Warp Stabilisation Field (or the Summoning), Ululmeathea Plasma Syphon, terminators using grenades, Pink Horrors, Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Kairos Fateweaver, the Changeling, Epidemius, Master of Sorcery, Siren Song, Collar of Khorne, general points costs across daemon army, BA's fast vehicles especially Vindicators, DSing Land Raiders, Red Thirst, Sanguinary Priests, Honour Guard, Shield of Sanguinius, The Sanguine Sword, Blood Talons and Wings of Sanguinius.


... I think that rather speaks for itself. Its not 1-2 errors or oversights that spoil Ward's books (as might be claimed as the case for long fangs in the SW), its consistent bad writing.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

So Ward writes powerful books? Well, why does that matter? A powerful book can be beaten, none of the armies in 40k are downright unbeatable barring a minute number of exceptions (GK that load up on Exocummunication fighting Daemons, for example). Would you like to fight weak armies that offer no challenge?

Some of the things in the books are overpowered against certain armies, but that's the point - you can take Ulmeathi Plasma Syphons on everyone that you can, and now you beat face on Tau. And? You suck against other armies, because the UPSs have used up all the points you would use to beat up Tyranids, for example. 

It's the opportunity cost of taking these things that balances them.

BA pay through the nose for their broken Fast vehicles, and when you break those expensive Rhinos they can't escape because they don't have Combat Tactics. Warding Stave gives a 2+ invulnerable, but you pay a lot of points for no increase in protection against small-arms, which can simply drown those expensive Terminators in wounds. Dark Exocommunication removes Daemon's wargear - but now you don't have any of the powers that are good against Necrons.

Everything has a points cost, and an opportunity cost.

Midnight


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> Or from Ward:
> Dark Excommunication, Warp Rift, Heroic Sacrifice, Paladins, Cleansing Flame, NDK, Reinforced Aegis, Turbo-Penetrator, Nemesis Warding , Stave, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke grenades, Psyk-out grenades, Rad grenades, Truesilver Armour, Warp Stabilisation Field (or the Summoning), Ululmeathea Plasma Syphon, terminators using grenades, Pink Horrors, Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Kairos Fateweaver, the Changeling, Epidemius, Master of Sorcery, Siren Song, Collar of Khorne, general points costs across daemon army, BA's fast vehicles especially Vindicators, DSing Land Raiders, Red Thirst, Sanguinary Priests, Honour Guard, Shield of Sanguinius, The Sanguine Sword, Blood Talons and Wings of Sanguinius.


Like I said earlier, Matt Ward sadly is the whipping boy... And you can tell that from this list. There is a ton of stuff in here that is in no way, shape or form OP (some is, some isn't when you look at the full picture). Allow me to explain myself:

*Dark excommunication*: Just a clearcut example of a situational ability. Tailoring your force beforehand when you know who your opponent is going to be, is lame... no matter how you turn it. This is no different from swapping out all your lascannons to autocannons/heavy bolters/assault cannons/... when you know you face dark eldar. It just makes you a douche if you do. 

*Warp rift/empyrean brain mines*: I'm assuming you are hinting at the fact that it's initiative based and therefor stupidly strong against low I armies? The most OP spells in WHFB work very similarly (almost identical in fact), but if it's in a Ward book, people will bitch about it more. Care to list the DE crudible as well? 

*Plasma syphon*? Really... useless against soo many things but has been faqed to screw tau in the pooper... Who's to say that was Ward's decision? Same deal as with the dark excommunication btw... list tailoring is lame and this is what it's all about. 

*Turbo penetrator*: extremely powerfull shot! It's on a very vulnerable infantrymodel however at a whopping 145points! Priced correctly for a T4 W2 model (even if it does have stealth)? I think so... It either makes up it's cost by popping a strong vehicle, or it gets killed by a stiff breeze coming it's way.

*Reinforced Aegis*: Very effective against certain armies... But how exactly is it any different from other psychic defence like runepriests or psychic hoods? Lemme tell you... it isn't! But there will be bitching, because it's Matt Ward. 

*Nemesis warding stave*: Srs? This is actually the very first time I have heard anybody complaining about that one... Strong: yes. Correctly priced: equally yes. 



Point is, whilst there are points that are definatly iffy, this is list is unnecessarily long and has things in it that don't even deserve to be in it when you actually zoom out and look at the bigger picture. When people are starting to include things like Empyrean brain mines in their list of OP shit while neglecting that there are other things that work with charisteric tests, you just now it's blind Matt Ward hate. 

And as far as taking things that will only work against certain opponents, there are more examples of this (not just made up by Matt Ward), but those are often just plain neglected/not even remembered. And why not? To use the analogy I used earlier: they were not invented by the fat kid that everybody likes to pick on. 

DISCLAIMER:

I'm not trying to put Matt Ward on a pedestal like he's the greatest developer that ever excisted. All I'm saying is that the guy takes WAY TOO MUCH FLAK whenever he does something wrong. More then he deserves. For the rules part anyway...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

:goodpost:

Midnight


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

elmir said:


> *Warp rift/empyrean brain mines*: I'm assuming you are hinting at the fact that it's initiative based and therefor stupidly strong against low I armies? The most OP spells in WHFB work very similarly (almost identical in fact), but if it's in a Ward book, people will bitch about it more. Care to list the DE crudible as well? People bitch whole heartedly about the I test death spells in fantasy - that book came out what? 10 months before GK - you think they would have learned.... Orks & Tau? I2. Humans? I3.
> 
> Most psykers in the game are Ld 9 or 10, based on that fact a one use item with a random range that will only effect one or two units per army (except grey knights...) by forcing them to take a Ld test or remove from play is OP? Chances of failing Ld9? 16.7%
> 
> ...


How about 40 point terminators who are troops, have pyskic powers and grenades? Wow. Again, 1.5 years ago they released SW's where they gave grey hunters counter attack, accute senses & bolter, BP & CCW for 1 point cheaper than the existing space marines & the community whent _REALLY?_. Tell me what they've done with GK isn't worse?

How about Mephiston. Full stop.

The rules are bad & the fluff is worse.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> People said EXACTLY the same thing with Dark Eldar. And guess who wrote them?
> 
> Phil Kelly?
> 
> ...


Because they are stupid. 

Yeah.

But the fluff in the book was good, and then he came out with CE which is possible the most well balanced codex of 5th edition. EDIT: 6th edition isn't out yet. (smacks self in the head for being a twaterfuck)

Yeah. We should also kill that guy. Who is up for a group lynching? 

:shok: Are you serious? The man makes Goto look like a fucking poet.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah, I hate how he totally screwed up Lemartes' fluff and downgraded him into a permanent Death Company / Black Rage guy. Then, they gave his good fluff to Astorath, possibly the most unbelievable character. He goes to every battle of every blood angel and successor chapter and finishes off every Death Company marine? What? Oh, and Mephiston is now some sort of god? He used to be just a good librarian. Same thing with Tigurius.... made him into some uber psycher. And don't get me started on the Sanguinor. One book that completely rewrites 20 years of fluff is not a good idea.

Bring back Jervis and Gavin, please!


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

clever handle said:


> How about 40 point terminators who are troops, have pyskic powers and grenades? Wow. Again, 1.5 years ago they released SW's where they gave grey hunters counter attack, accute senses & bolter, BP & CCW for 1 point cheaper than the existing space marines & the community whent _REALLY?_. Tell me what they've done with GK isn't worse?
> 
> How about Mephiston. Full stop.
> 
> The rules are bad & the fluff is worse.


Yeah, fielding GK terminators is auto-win... :boredom: Terminators without SS/TH setups in vanilla marine armies are arguably a pretty mediocre to weak choice. The upgrade that the regular GK terminators got isn't even in the same league as the upgrade that grey hunters are to tactical marines. 

And I did say that there will be the occasional borked character (mephiston being one of them), but in the grand scale of things, that's no different from say a Teclis in WHFB. Nearly every book/author has one of these OTT special chars running around... but for some reason, people are very triggerhappy to blame ward for everything that's wrong with the hobby...

As for your comments in green: 

You may want to read up on the aegis special rule. That one ONLY works on offensive spells targeted DIRECTLY at a grey knight squad. And if that squad is within 12" of a dread, it'll be -4 Ld. That's not nearly as crazy as you describe it. But I guess it must be so insane because it's Ward right? :wink:

You should consider warp spiders in 2nd edition 40k, they tested against initiative as well with the spinners... Char tests have been around since the very start of the game! All I was saying, is that it's not a new thing and is that it's not a "Ward thing". It doesn't deserve to be in a "I hate Matt Ward because..." list because char tests hurt certain armies more... and that has been part of the game since day 1.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mephiston has good fluff in the new Codex. I just want to know what Tzeentch has planned for 'im.

With Grey Hunters having close combat weapons, bolters, and bolt pistols, they also have flaws. If they want to have LD 9, they have to use up an Elites slot on Wolf Guard. That also balances out the reduced cost - if you want a Wolf Guard to lead the pack, then it's likely making up for all the points you gained in having cheap GHs. 

No heavy weapons? One special, or two if you want to be LD 8? Tacticals and Grey Hunters do different things - GH run up and beat faces, whilst Tacticals sit in the midfield in Rhinos, with Multi-Meltas and Missile Launchers. GH fit the Space Wolves style, with Tacticals suiting the Space Marine style.

Midnight


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Out of interest; who is supposedly writing the next Necron codex?


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only issue with the Matt Ward stuffs, and perhaps this is more directed on GW as a whole, but all 5th Ed codexs (other than Nids it seems) Ward's books are alright. at least not when fluff is compared.

one of the issues is that compared to the 1st 5th Ed book (C:SMs) now seems to be considered "average" or even "less-than-average" in the scheme of things. Now Ward has written the 1st, 5th, and 7th codexs released in 5th Ed and with other than the C:SM his stuff, i think, his stuff has immediately come across as the newest "top codex".

Ward's codexs doesn't become overly extreme with just 5th ed codexs, its when about half of the codexs are still 3/4th ed are entered into play that Ward's stuff just becomes extreme.

im not justifying Ward, but with the C:SMs i feel that i can easily take care of either BAs or GKs. but the older a codex gets the harder its getting to keep the lie up of the game being "balanced".


Edit: Darklove - Ward.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Matt ward.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Look at what he has done to Chaos, i know he did not write the two chaos codexes, but his writing of the Space Marines, Blood Angels and Grey Knights have given them so much fluff that in his writings make Chaos look very weak.
> 
> Matt Ward it seems went out of his way to basically neutralize Chaos.
> 
> By their very own nature if we are to assume that all is equal Chaos Space Marines and their allies Chaos Daemons should be nigh unstoppable. Look at Chaos Space Marines for example, we have Space Marines with all their previous attributes that made them a potent fighting force to be reckoned with and now they have been enhanced even further with the Powers of the Chaos Gods, but are now inferior to Space Marines on all levels and then we have Chaos Daemons that are not coporial, they exist in the rhelm of the warp of Chaos to be brought forward by summoning to pour forth in large numbers that overwhelms worlds, but a handful of Grey Knights can seemingly erradicate a world infested with billions of Chaos Daemons. Even ordinary Space Marines can kill Chaos Daemons with ordinary bolters and bolt pistols which technically should not happen.


You are aware that before Matt Ward wrote codices the Space Marines have beaten the forces of Chaos right?

Thirteen Black Crusades. The First War for Armageddon. All happened before Ward wrote any codices and the Imperium won them all.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

elmir said:


> Yeah, fielding GK terminators is auto-win... :boredom: Terminators without SS/TH setups in vanilla marine armies are arguably a pretty mediocre to weak choice. The upgrade that the regular GK terminators got isn't even in the same league as the upgrade that grey hunters are to tactical marines.


What's your point? Codex marines have Terminators & Assault terminators. Both cost 40 points. Both have strengths & weaknesses - the GK ones take all the strengths of the Dakka style terminators & then take them up past 11 to 13 by giving them the abilities I mentioned, plus the ability to take psybolt amunitition, halberds, etc. While no SS is a blow these are dakka terminators worth far more than their equivalents in the other codecies. At no point did I say they were auto-win. They're an example of fanboy wet dream come true - not game breaking, but that doesn't mean they're not lame.



elmir said:


> And I did say that there will be the occasional borked character (mephiston being one of them), but in the grand scale of things, that's no different from say a Teclis in WHFB. Nearly every book/author has one of these OTT special chars running around... but for some reason, people are very triggerhappy to blame ward for everything that's wrong with the hobby...


Mephiston
Dante
Sanguinor
Crowe (not same level, but still pretty ott)
Coteaz as written
Draigo
Vulkan

Non-Ward OTT 40K characters?

Njal
... Struggling to think of any other characters I HATE to see.

As for your comments in green: 



elmir said:


> You may want to read up on the aegis special rule. That one ONLY works on offensive spells targeted DIRECTLY at a grey knight squad. And if that squad is within 12" of a dread, it'll be -4 Ld. That's not nearly as crazy as you describe it. But I guess it must be so insane because it's Ward right? :wink:


Does the -4 not stack with the -1 from Aegis making it -5? Lets look at some of the psychic powers I'd want to cast that are offensive?

Everything from C:CSM except Warptime
Jaws, Murderous Hurricane, Living Lightning
Blood Lance
Paroxism
Avenger, Vortex of Doom
Doom, Mindwar
PBS power

even at a -4 from Ld 10: 16/36 (44.4%) BEFORE any hoods.



elmir said:


> You should consider warp spiders in 2nd edition 40k, they tested against initiative as well with the spinners... Char tests have been around since the very start of the game! All I was saying, is that it's not a new thing and is that it's not a "Ward thing". It doesn't deserve to be in a "I hate Matt Ward because..." list because char tests hurt certain armies more... and that has been part of the game since day 1. [/quote[
> 
> fair enough
> 
> ...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Chaos Daemons was the first 5th ed. codex, although it was published a few months before 5th ed. - if you look closely you will see 5th ed. specific references (i.e. offensive and defensive grenades). C:SM was the first 5th ed. codex to be published after 5th ed. was released.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

darklove said:


> Out of interest; who is supposedly writing the next Necron codex?


Matt Ward

/10chars


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

On the subject of Grey Knights, am I right in believing that nemesis force swords increase the invulnerable save of the wielder? If so, it would mean that the basic GK terminator has a 4++, and that brother-captains and grand masters would have a 3++...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

elmir said:


> Like I said earlier, Matt Ward sadly is the whipping boy... And you can tell that from this list. There is a ton of stuff in here that is in no way, shape or form OP (some is, some isn't when you look at the full picture). Allow me to explain myself:
> 
> *Dark excommunication*: Just a clearcut example of a situational ability. Tailoring your force beforehand when you know who your opponent is going to be, is lame... no matter how you turn it. This is no different from swapping out all your lascannons to autocannons/heavy bolters/assault cannons/... when you know you face dark eldar. It just makes you a douche if you do.
> I have no issue if someone adds dark excom to a librarian in an all-rounder list. That's their choice, they've spent points on an upgarde that'll rarely be useful. On the other hand I have a huge problem with it coming standard on NDK... there is no need and it changes them from a challenging proposition to almost unkillable, which is why I rate the power as OTT.
> ...


Ward does do some good stuff, I like his inventiveness, I like the Orc and Goblins book (which I believe he wrote), he comes up with fun stuff that sounds great... but he always overdoes it.

GK grenades are a good example: I love the different types that they get, they belong in the GK arsenal... but then he lets terminators use grenades (which has always been one to the characteristic downsides to termies), he lets you use as many as you want and lets you use them when both assaulting and when being assaulted. There is no downside to them, no tactics the enemy can use to neutralise them... 


SW grey hunters are probably _the_ best example of an excellently written unit. They are powerful but have flaws... you can solve their flaws or upgrade them to have lovely bonuses *but it costs you*. 180points will get you a solid unit in a transport... not massively nasty but pretty solid. An extra 100points will make that unit nails, but you've had to pay a huge amount of points to do it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

clever handle said:


> What's your point? Codex marines have Terminators & Assault terminators. Both cost 40 points. Both have strengths & weaknesses - the GK ones take all the strengths of the Dakka style terminators & then take them up past 11 to 13 by giving them the abilities I mentioned, plus the ability to take psybolt amunitition, halberds, etc. They still cost points, you know. While no SS is a blow No, it's called balance. these are dakka terminators worth far more than their equivalents in the other codecies. At no point did I say they were auto-win. They're an example of fanboy wet dream come true - not game breaking, but that doesn't mean they're not lame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ward armies are not ZOMG overpowered, and BA and GK are not 'ridiculous shit'.

Midnight


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

This thread intrigued and amused me enough to make me want to look into Matt Ward and make my own unbiased decision on him. I read the fluff on Draigo and now I hate him.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> This thread intrigued and amused me enough to make me want to look into Matt Ward and make my own unbiased decision on him. I read the fluff on Draigo and now I hate him.


Each to their own, but why? He's stuck in the warp, fighting Daemons for eternity, yet everything he does is ultimately futile. He may well be burning down Nurgle's jungle on a daily basis, but how do we know that Nurgle isn't letting him do that, just so he can make Draigo think he's doing something meaningful. When the time comes, that Draigo succumbs to the fact that his fight is useless, his despair will be all the greater. And Nurgle loves despair, does he not?

Midnight


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I play orks and vanilla chaos marines.......i think all current marine codecies are OP.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Each to their own, but why? He's stuck in the warp, fighting Daemons for eternity, yet everything he does is ultimately futile. He may well be burning down Nurgle's jungle on a daily basis, but how do we know that Nurgle isn't letting him do that, just so he can make Draigo think he's doing something meaningful. When the time comes, that Draigo succumbs to the fact that his fight is useless, his despair will be all the greater. And Nurgle loves despair, does he not?
> 
> Midnight


Nurgle likes diarrhoea he's not a big fan of letting anybody, never mind an Emperor botherer, burn down his back garden over and over again. If it were Slaneesh I might be more likely to be convinced.

Anyway, I dislike the fluff on the basis that it makes him too good. I love the GK's and their whole unbreakable business but the way that Draigo is portrayed is equal to and in some cases more epic than some of the Primarch's. (Who were only that epic because they had flaws.) I would buy into the whole curse thing and being lost to the warp and even him turning up now and then to turn the tide and backhand a few demon lords. It's the fact he's lost in the warp and not only maintaining his mental state and Emperor aligned priorities but also on some kind of Rambo mission against the big 4.

It's just too much. I mean really, flip the situation over? Lets make up a crazy demon lord who is lost in real space and forever stomping on Imperial planets killing Chapter Masters and changing their swords into axes? Oh and lets say every day he kicks 7 bells out of The Fang. See the point I'm making?


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Digg40k said:


> Nurgle likes diarrhoea he's not a big fan of letting anybody, never mind an Emperor botherer, burn down his back garden over and over again. If it were Slaneesh I might be more likely to be convinced.
> 
> Anyway, I dislike the fluff on the basis that it makes him too good. I love the GK's and their whole unbreakable business but the way that Draigo is portrayed is equal to and in some cases more epic than some of the Primarch's. (Who were only that epic because they had flaws.) I would buy into the whole curse thing and being lost to the warp and even him turning up now and then to turn the tide and backhand a few demon lords. It's the fact he's lost in the warp and not only maintaining his mental state and Emperor aligned priorities but also on some kind of Rambo mission against the big 4.
> 
> It's just too much. I mean really, flip the situation over? Lets make up a crazy demon lord who is lost in real space and forever stomping on Imperial planets killing Chapter Masters and changing their swords into axes? Oh and lets say every day he kicks 7 bells out of The Fang. See the point I'm making?


Depends... it must be rather frustrating for said daemonlord if those chaptermaster would just be back next week.

Sisyphean labor is what that is called. Mind you, if this is what Matt Ward was trying to refer to, it's still a bad piece of fluff (if anything is so lost on your audience, you did something wrong).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

What annoys me is that two or three Primarchs where said to of entered the eye of terror, Leman Russ and Corax come to mind, but you don't hear about them literally owning Daemons on a daily basis, where as Draigo does it without breaking a sweat.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

elmir said:


> Depends... it must be rather frustrating for said daemonlord if those chaptermaster would just be back next week.
> 
> Sisyphean labor is what that is called. Mind you, if this is what Matt Ward was trying to refer to, it's still a bad piece of fluff (if anything is so lost on your audience, you did something wrong).


I doubt the situation is as you describe simply because Draigo is a GK, he's conditioned to fight the insurmountable odds for eternity anyway so it's not like he's going to one day drop the sword and have a bit cry over how futile it all is.

It's possible though that the fluff is aiming for that and if it is well it still proves my point why it's crap fluff.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I dunno... some stuff in his entry does lend me to believe that this was the intention. Quotes like:

"Yet if the dark gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningfull victory. The daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies. Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the inevitable city rightened themselves. "

"Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since: to walk the realm of chaos for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans before being freshly jailed upon victory. It's hard to imagine the fortitude of character that allows Draigo to endure such hardship, yet endure it he does."

There are some elements that heavily refer to the sisyphean curse in that piece of fluff.

However, the ancient Greek myth is slightly better written... There is no point where the reader goes: "OMG, king sisyphus is so OP, tricking and decieving the Gods unpunished and then pushing that rock up that cliff without breaking a sweat!":grin:

But like I said earlier, his fluff is pretty poorly excecuted. If this were better written, the tragic components that I quoted would have been more pronounced and the character would end up being a lot more likeable by all.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

elmir said:


> I dunno... some stuff in his entry does lend me to believe that this was the intention. Quotes like:
> 
> "Yet if the dark gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningfull victory. The daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies. Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the inevitable city rightened themselves. "
> 
> ...


I don't think it's so much poor execution, as much as people now need to have every detail spelled out to them in the Fluff. As evidenced by one of our posters typing this up about Draigo:



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> You see, Warlock, the entire point of Draigo's struggles is that he _can't_ prevail. Ever. He's there for eternity. He fights and fights and fights; he succeeds, he tears apart the very roots of the Warp and the Greater Daemons tremble. And, yet, it matters not at all because once the GDs stop trembling they return only stronger. And one day Draigo, pure and noble and strong and a hope for Humanity, will realise just what good he does. Then he will stop.
> A million years? A billion? Meaningless blinks in eternity. When will be the first time he doesn't act? That will be the hardest. What excuse might he use? It doesn't matter, it's inevitable that it will happen. Once he has not acted that first time, it will come easier and easier, the excuses more and more flimsy. At what point will he come to hate that which he fights for, that which sets him an impossible goal? Whenever it happens, it is inevitable.
> Draigo- one of Humanity's greatest warriors, one of Humanity's greatest heroes, one of the GKs shining lights. And, inevitably, the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos. The Chaos gods know this; and they laugh.
> 
> GFP


It works, and it's similar to what I thought of when I first read Draigo's story in the codex. But because this wasn't explicitly told in the codex entry people can't put 2 + 2 together from their own fluff knowledge about the Warp and draw this conclusion.

I wish some people would stop needing GW to hand them everything about the fluff on a silver platter.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Ward armies are not ZOMG overpowered, and BA and GK are not 'ridiculous shit'.
> 
> Midnight


Mephiston is OTT because he's a librarian who fights better than almost everything in the game - even without his psychic powers which only serve to make him better. He doesn't have an invul save which is his ONLY downside - but he's on a 25mm base which means he can hide almost anywhere for a coversave to protect him from everything AP1 or 2. The rest of the characters are so incomparable with anyone but an MW character that it's laughable.

Also, I'm not sure what your counter argument towards my listing of offensive spells is? That the armies in questino have psychic hoods on their psykers? Well, as I mentioned a psychic hood gives you basically a 50% chance to stop the power, Reinforced Aegis (which is the point of that list of psychic powers...) gives you a better than 50% chance to shut the power down BEFORE you go to a librarian's hood. Also, what does SoTW have to do with anything here? Last time I checked that was anti-psyker & gave no benefits to 'Nid powers....

I also think you missed the point of the statement about wanting A-B-C-D, etc... I'm not saying I want a unit that does that - that's (as others have mentioned) what you get in a MW codex - units that do everything better than what has come before for the same / less cost. I play slaaneshi chaos & DE, I'm well prepared for units having a set purpose & working to achieve said purpose (you know that syncronicity thing I mentioned.... I Like having that...)

I'm not saying that MW codecies are ZOMG overpowered! I'm saying they're crap. There's a difference. Bad fluff (for which there have been many, many, many, many examples in this & other threads split between MANY books); excessive special abilities for which points aren't paid (explain to me how my terminator should come with grenades & psychic powers when yours doesn't & we pay the same points - oh and mine is scoring while yours is not. Really, justify that); lack of creativity in names / descriptions of abilities (ok, this isn't isolated to Ward - we did have _The Wolf Lord Wolfboy riding to battle on his Thunderwolf with his Wolf talisman and Wolf necklace and Wolf standard swinging his Wolf claws_ but we also have the blood angels & their _bloodstrike missiles, bloodfists, blood chalice, sanguinary X/Y/Z, {... that means blood}_) and as I said, this isn't limited to Ward but when coupled with bad fluff & stupid rules it becomes more noticable.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

ok...

l don't mind mat wards rules to much, his fluff is what piss me off more.

my fav is the "lets kill SoB because they have pure blood so we can beat the blood god".

back on what is OP it happens every codex release, just wait for 2 - 3 more and most of the GK will be forgotten, and we will see stuff such as "OMG the new tau *** is so OP with his **** it mass up GK"

overall when ever something new comes out of cause they get more power or new moves, and those yet to receive an update remain weak or look even weaker. (ask a necron player)

If people want to play a balance game, there are a ton of games out there like chess. but be carful guys in chess white has been OP for thousand's of years because they always go first.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Mephiston - 250 pts

Daemon Prince with all upgrades - 160 pts.

How is Mephiston OP? He compares to many other top notch CC hq choices. However, his stat line just isn't believable. He's 150% stronger and tougher than all other space marines? Just doesn't make sense, fluff wise. On the points / playability scale, he's good, but pretty expensive.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

sybarite said:


> If people want to play a balance game, there are a ton of games out there like chess. but be carful guys in chess white has been OP for thousand's of years because they always go first.


You made me spit out my tea and laugh.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

this is just funny http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391111.page


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

Draigo
Blood angel + Necrons BFF's
nuff said


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

jaysen said:


> Just doesn't make sense, fluff wise. On the points / playability scale, he's good, but pretty expensive.


Well his new fluff is a hell of a lot better than the old one. He's gone from 'Librarian badass, who drinks blood', to 'Librarian who appears to have conquered his rogue genetics, but has supernatural attributes and spends most of his life hidden from those whom he should regard as brothers'.

I know which I prefer.

Would you really like to go back to the old GK Codex? Really? The new one has so many list builds, so many characterful options, and is competitive to boot. The old one? Limited options (So limited they thought it necessary to give the GK the ability to take allies), few special characters, no fun FOC unlocks, VERY limited competitiveness.

If Ward left GW people would just moan about Kelly, or Cruddace. Stop bitching and enjoy the rules. Make up your own fluff if you want to. If you don't? Screw you.

Midnight


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> Well his new fluff is a hell of a lot better than the old one. He's gone from 'Librarian badass, who drinks blood', to 'Librarian who appears to have conquered his rogue genetics, but has supernatural attributes and spends most of his life hidden from those whom he should regard as brothers'.
> 
> I know which I prefer.
> 
> ...


Should of gave them more options than simply giving each squad the ability to do just about everything.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

clever handle said:


> Mephiston is OTT because he's a librarian who fights better than almost everything in the game Well he IS a Daemon Prince - even without his psychic powers which only serve to make him better. He doesn't have an invul save which is his ONLY downside And he can't join squads for protection. It doesn't matter that that's it, they're such a massive downside he doesn't need a nerf. - but he's on a 25mm base which means he can hide almost anywhere for a coversave to protect him from everything AP1 or 2. The rest of the characters are so incomparable with anyone but an MW character that it's laughable.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what your counter argument towards my listing of offensive spells is? That the armies in questino have psychic hoods on their psykers? Well, as I mentioned a psychic hood gives you basically a 50% chance to stop the power, Reinforced Aegis (which is the point of that list of psychic powers...) gives you a better than 50% chance to shut the power down BEFORE you go to a librarian's hood. Also, what does SoTW have to do with anything here? Last time I checked that was anti-psyker & gave no benefits to 'Nid powers.... They have psychic defence, you have psychic defence. And?
> 
> ...


He writes good rules, that allow fluffy and fun armies that are still competitive.

Midnight


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

clever handle said:


> I'm not saying that MW codecies are ZOMG overpowered! I'm saying they're crap. There's a difference. Bad fluff (for which there have been many, many, many, many examples in this & other threads split between MANY books);


Bad fluff is in the eye of the beholder, who tends to be a person that does not like Imperial Space Marines. Personally I like Wards fluff because it's actual Fluff. Most of the previous codices had limited to no Fluff, while Ward gives us more.

It also helps that I'm willing to look beyond the printed word and draw my own conclusions about the fluff.

Edit: and to all the people who cite the BA/Cron fluff by Ward as being "bad" I think we should reserve judgment until the new Necron codex comes out. Not that people are going to happy with that, as Ward will finish the book (though to what extent is unknown) and they will therefore use that excuse to hate any fluff that's different.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

sybarite said:


> my fav is the "lets kill SoB because they have pure blood so we can beat the blood god".


Jesus! You guys really need to watch more of those old witch hunter movies.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Doelago said:


> Jesus! You guys really need to watch more of those old witch hunter movies.


I didn't know those movies already featured gene enhanced super soldiers already equipped to deal with daemons


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I care not for how the rules are written. As far as I am concerned Warhammer is a big game of chess. With one "unstoppable force" being countered by an "unmovable object". Obviously like Necons there are rules to the exception.

As for fluff I feel that nearly all the GW writers write crap fluff on the basis that nearly every book has some ridiculousness to it. The only writer I do have respect for for making decent codices is Phil Kelly. Who happens to write Codex Orks and Dark Eldar. Which I know a lot of people would rate as one of the best codices to get at the moment.

Matt Ward has already been covered. Thorpe wrote Chaos, 'nuff said and Cruddace beought us the blandest Tyranid book ever. And then introduced the idea of Tyranids that were resistant to nearly all Tau weapons, great at leaping through forests and were invisible to everything except Tau Battlesuit sensors. His justification being that the Hive Fleet only had small numbers of large beasties. Looking through the page in which Tau and Tyranids were fighting there seemed more big stuff on the Tyranid side than the Tau side. He should have been shot for that.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I didn't know those movies already featured gene enhanced super soldiers already equipped to deal with daemons


Ouh, you would be surprised.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

The Grey Knights, while fluff wise, are fine (IMO) the only problem I have is the fluff that isn't represented by stats. Don't make their fluff bad ass and then give them shit stats... but don't give them good fluff and good stats. For example, Draigo, not only can he survive the Warp (which I'm cool with) he kills a Blood Thirster with his own hands (Ok... getting a bit silly here) but he goes around smashing shit up for centuries (Erm... OK I guess). Then you check his stats... S5 T5.... so on and so forth.... but that is nowhere near Greater Daemon level, let alone Greater Daemon-Level-Without-Weapons <_<

On Crowe's fluff... there is nothing wrong with it. All you guys going "Herp why don't they shoot into away, seal it herp derp". Well, in the fluff it explains why. It says that sealing it away isn't good enough because 1. People will be tempted to unseal it and use it 2. When it was last sealed/shot away it found its way back to a corruptable source.... so basically..... no matter what they do, no matter where they seal it, hide it, try and destroy it, it will come back. It will find somebody to taint. That's why Crowe has to hold it because 1. No Grey Knights have ever turned to Chaos 2. Purifiers are the height of Purity for Grey Knights 3. He is the Puriest they've ever had..... thus he is the best place for it. He'll never get corrupted, but the Sword will try and try to corrupt his weilder... but it can't..... so that means it will never fall into hands that'll use it for 'good'.

Grey Knights are suppose to be "Above" Space Marines in power.... yet they are.... the same in stat wise. Grand Masters only have 1 more BS than other Space Marine leaders.  It's only the special rules that set them apart.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I care not for how the rules are written Seriously?. As far as I am concerned Warhammer is a big game of chess. With one "unstoppable force" being countered by an "unmovable object". Obviously like Necons there are rules to the exception.
> 
> As for fluff I feel that nearly all the GW writers write crap fluff on the basis that nearly every book has some ridiculousness to it. The only writer I do have respect for for making decent codices is Phil Kelly. Who happens to write Codex Orks and Dark Eldar and Space Wolves.. Which I know a lot of people would rate as one of the best codices to get at the moment.
> 
> Matt Ward has already been covered. Thorpe wrote Chaos, 'nuff said and Cruddace beought us the blandest Tyranid book ever Adding 5 Special Characters and 8 new units is hardly making a codex bland. Want bland? Look at the Necron codex, that barely has 8 units total.. And then introduced the idea of Tyranids that were resistant to nearly all Tau weapons, great at leaping through forests and were invisible to everything except Tau Battlesuit sensors. His justification being that the Hive Fleet only had small numbers of large beasties No, it was a highly adaptable hive fleet that simply changed the way it built said beasties so it could defeat it's foe, whatever strategy they used.. Looking through the page in which Tau and Tyranids were fighting there seemed more big stuff on the Tyranid side than the Tau side Yeah, but show me a picture of an 80ft Fire Warrior. Big monsters has always been a Tyranid thing. He should have been shot for that. He doesn't do the artwork, he just writes good rules.


Take your Cruddace-hating away from this place, away from the battle between the Wardians and the Ward-Haters.

Midnight


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Ouh, you would be surprised.


l feel like doing a google search but fear the horrors l would find.

here the thing also can you imagined how it looks for a guardsmen/sisters when they see this.

a fun story below

*Guardsmen* So rick, those guys are grey knights huh?

*Rick* Yes and blessed be the emperor! we no longer need to fear the chaos with them around.

*Guardsmen* Well l just saw them slaughter a butch of sisters saying. "Quickly gather and bath in there blood my brothers".

*Rick* You fool, they were chaos marines we must warn the captain and sound the alarm.

Rick rush's to the comm station to warn the others, but before he gets there a grey knight appears before him cover head to toe in blood.

*Grey knight* Why did you leave your post Guardsmen!

Rick shakes with fear, as he look up he notices that his friend sister Onikv decapitated head being worn like a hat by the Grey knight. The shock makes him unable to speak.

*Grey knight* Answer my question Guardsmen!

*Rick* Why!? why did you do it!?

*Grey knight* For the emperor.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

the pre-existing fluff didn't necessarily come from the codecies (3rd ed...) but there were index astartes articles, xenology books, chapter approved, short stories, etc.

The fluff written for the characters isn't my problem - nor do many complain about that - it's the little mini-histories, or "notable battles" that are just terrible. This is where you find the necron/BA alliance or the grey knights bathing in blood to fight the blood god (head-desk).


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

sybarite said:


> l feel like doing a google search but fear the horrors l would find.
> 
> here the thing also can you imagined how it looks for a guardsmen/sisters when they see this.
> 
> ...


 

Guardsmen: MUST WE REMIND YOU THAT THE CADIANS FIGHT OFF CHAOS INCURSIONS FROM THE EYE OF TERROR ON A REGULAR BASIS WITHOUT THE SUPERHUMAN ENHANCEMENTS OF YOU STUCK-UP GREY KNIGHTS?

pwnt


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Alsojames said:


> pwnt


then he was shot for instauration and cowardices. :laugh:

good laugh though.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Then the GK (as well as all the GK fanbois) realize that the Guardsmen are the true badasses because they're all a bunch of regular humans with flashlights that scare away the monsters in the dark.

Then the GKs and Matt Ward kill themselves. The Imperium rejoices.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

clever handle said:


> the pre-existing fluff didn't necessarily come from the codecies (3rd ed...) but there were index astartes articles, xenology books, chapter approved, short stories, etc.
> 
> The fluff written for the characters isn't my problem - nor do many complain about that - it's the little mini-histories, or "notable battles" that are just terrible. This is where you find the necron/BA alliance or the grey knights bathing in blood to fight the blood god (head-desk).


Did anyone else notice one of the battles was "The Battle for Birmingham"?

I'm no geography expert, but isn't an English town or something like that? That really does piss me off- if you're going to write fluff, at least make it so the names of the planets aren't blatantly stolen off a motorway turnoff sign. Fuck.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

coke123 said:


> if you're going to write fluff, at least make it so the names of the planets aren't blatantly stolen off a motorway turnoff sign. Fuck.


Well, sounds like we need a whole new company then...:laugh:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Birmingham, Alabama. It was named after Birmingham, UK. So, why not have future planets named from famous old terra cities?


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Sigh. Guess I can't do any Space Marine armies since the general consensus is that their fluff is terrible and that they are overpowered. I don't wanna (when I'm able to walk and go to my 'local' GW) to be ignored or "No thanks mate, don't fight GK" just because the author of the books decided to go a bit overboard.

I like the Grey Knights because of the way they look, the uniqeness of their weapons, the fun weapons (Daemonblade, Hell-Rifle, Psy-nades and so on) and the fact I prefer small Elite armies than hordes, as it allows me to have better control of a battle.

But it seems there is so much hate for GK that there is little point me spending the cash collecting one if nobody wants to play or demands that certain rules are removed from the battle.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Troublehalf said:


> Sigh. Guess I can't do any Space Marine armies since the general consensus is that their fluff is terrible and that they are overpowered. I don't wanna (when I'm able to walk and go to my 'local' GW) to be ignored or "No thanks mate, don't fight GK" just because the author of the books decided to go a bit overboard.
> 
> I like the Grey Knights because of the way they look, the uniqeness of their weapons, the fun weapons (Daemonblade, Hell-Rifle, Psy-nades and so on) and the fact I prefer small Elite armies than hordes, as it allows me to have better control of a battle.
> 
> But it seems there is so much hate for GK that there is little point me spending the cash collecting one if nobody wants to play or demands that certain rules are removed from the battle.


No need for whining. It doesn't matter what other people think - do what you want. I my shop, there are like 3 GK players. You are really over thinking it.

The fluff is indeed horrible - but GK's assumed broken-ness is obviously a marketing ploy. Make an OPed army so people will buy it.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

Aye, the hate isn't towards the GKs proper but rather the fluff, or to be more precise the writer of the fluff. Even calling it hate is too much, I had some eye twitching and face palmed a few times when I read the codexes, but I certainly never felt the need of gathering a furious mob with torches and pitchforks.

There's a bit of disdain against GK players because some feel that way towards flavour of the month players, but that's easily surpassable with just being nice. If I enjoy playing the oposing player I don't really give a toss about what army he's playing after all.

On a final note, as much as I dislike the fluff, the GKs where really needing the update as they where one of the less competitive army before it. My mate has a GK army since either 3rd or 4th don't remember, and we where playing with house rules, because otherwise it wouldn't just cut it.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Grey knights would have been cool if they would've remained as regular Space Marines with a great expertise in fighting daemonic forces of chaos. In other words, they have more knowledge and experience than a standard space marine chapter. They are privy to the forbidden knowledge on daemons and warp energies and therefore know the strengths, weaknesses, and tactics of the warp powers. They might have a bit of specialized equipment, but generally use standard space marine gear. 

The problem with fielding an army of them is that they would most likely travel in very small groups or alone, since they have to cover the entire Empire. They would lend their experience and guidance to local forces to help them defeat a chaos incursion. Only in very rare occasions would they show any kind of large battle force.

That's the style of fluff that I could get behind.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not whining. I am just stating that, on this forum at least, people have complained about certain rules, consider Gk players using Dark Excom as 'cheaters'.

I want to avoid that. However the 'whipping girls' of Sisters of Battle have been made only slightly better in some areas. I just hope the White Dwarf codex is a "beta codex".... and when 6th gets releasd, they re-release the proper SoB codex, with fixes.

I wanted to do a SoB army, but they just don't interest me anymore.... so Grey Knights will be my first, then SoB later. Shame Grey Knights are 1. Hard to paint 2. Expensive and 3. So variable you need lots of magnets and skills in putting them together.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Birmingham is also known as "The Black Planet" might refer to the Black Country which Birmingham is very near.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

coke123 said:


> Did anyone else notice one of the battles was "The Battle for Birmingham"?
> 
> I'm no geography expert, but isn't an English town or something like that? That really does piss me off- if you're going to write fluff, at least make it so the names of the planets aren't blatantly stolen off a motorway turnoff sign. Fuck.


Derby, Lincoln, Tamworth, Newcastle, Ipswich, Cape York, New South Wales....

Blatantly stolen place names: you would have thought the people who colonised Oz wouldn't have just stolen the names off a motorway turnoff sign...


EDIT- also, has anyone checked if the Battle for Birmingham was a campaign run by the Birmingham stores which was then added back into the fluff..? I know that locally our GW has had some pretty awesomely written campaign back stories with massive apocalypse style final battles. I also know that the managers of stores in the Birmingham area are some of the high fliers of the company and that if they wanted to run a big Apoc game would almost certainly have to go up to Nottingham to do so...


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Birmingham is also known as "The Black Planet" might refer to the Black Country which Birmingham is very near.


Either that, or somebody is a closet racist.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

There is a well known and on-going rivalry between Birmingham and Nottingham (where GW is from). This is even to the extent that the Planet Birmingham was destroyed in the fluff section of the 5th ed. BRB (see the 40k timeline).
The Black Country is a reference to the industrial heartland of the UK (all that coal dust and industrial smog). It is not too far a leap to assume that Planet Birmingham might be a Mega-Hive industrial world.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah I made a thread about that as it said Dark Eldar destroyed relay stations etc on the Black Planet, I ended up coming to the conclusion it was before the Harbingers where based there.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

jaysen said:


> Birmingham, Alabama. It was named after Birmingham, UK. So, why not have future planets named from famous old terra cities?





Tim/Steve said:


> Derby, Lincoln, Tamworth, Newcastle, Ipswich, Cape York, New South Wales....
> 
> Blatantly stolen place names: you would have thought the people who colonised Oz wouldn't have just stolen the names off a motorway turnoff sign...


That's a pretty flawed argument- those places have those names because they were colonised by the British; I'm pretty sure the Emperor wasn't a limey. His teeth are too good. Also considering the current language of the Imperium is apparently pseudo-latin... It's wierd seeing some random English place name just tossed in there.



Troublehalf said:


> Sigh. Guess I can't do any Space Marine armies since the general consensus is that their fluff is terrible and that they are overpowered. I don't wanna (when I'm able to walk and go to my 'local' GW) to be ignored or "No thanks mate, don't fight GK" just because the author of the books decided to go a bit overboard.
> 
> I like the Grey Knights because of the way they look, the uniqeness of their weapons, the fun weapons (Daemonblade, Hell-Rifle, Psy-nades and so on) and the fact I prefer small Elite armies than hordes, as it allows me to have better control of a battle.
> 
> But it seems there is so much hate for GK that there is little point me spending the cash collecting one if nobody wants to play or demands that certain rules are removed from the battle.


No, don't let other people's stupidity stop you from collecting an army you like. Grey Knights are not overpowered; Space Marines are not overpowered. The fluff is fucking atrocious, but they're tons of fun to play. If people refuse you games, then no loss; they weren't worth playing in the first place.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I agree with coke, but I was initially turned off from playing GK players because my first 2 games were against my friend who has a habit of cheesing me to death.

i.e. using the (also fucking atrocious) dividing-wounds rule in his 10-man, 2-wound paladin unit to make every single palading take one wound before killing one, essentially meaning I have to do 11 wounds to AS 2+ 5++ models to kill one.

Also, the teleporter dredknight. He fucking assaulted my Dark Reapers on the first turn.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Of course the Emperor is British! In fact, GW is English, so he is probably English


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Wish I would have found this thread before making one in Fluff.

Couple questions. A psyker can look into the warp without going mad correct?
Since Draigo is a psyker can he not be in the warp without going mad?

Draigo is lost in the warp due to a daemon could the daemon protect him from the warp in order to get his revenge on him?

all of Draigo's deeds can they not be things that he is doing within his own mind in order to keep himself from going mad while in the warp?


This is what I can't stand GK are supposed to be bad ass yet most players can't seem to get their heads around that just maybe their fluff should make them badass.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

No they're definately badass, no doubt about that.

But ol' Matt Ward's fluff makes them TOO badass. Like I said earlier, Flawed Heroes>Perfect Heroes

And Ward's fluff makes him look like the kid you played action figures with as a kid but denied every move your figure made by saying NO MY GUY'S TOO BADASS YOUR MOVE DOES NOTHING


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

As I said, the fact Draigo can kill a Greater Daemon with his barehands, yet his stat line is nothing compared to one. Going head to head on the table, removing Titansword from Draigo... he'd get his face kicked in. 

Just a bit strange.

Also, yay for British sterotypes, cause we all have bad teeth.... even thou that's based on an era where people ate sugar by the bowlful... actually ate it.... I won't go into how British teeth are statiscally one of the best in the world... cause the old "herp u can make anything up in statistics derp herp"


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> As I said, the fact Draigo can kill a Greater Daemon with his barehands, yet his stat line is nothing compared to one.


also to mention daemons are 10x stronger in the warp than on the mortal plane.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

coke123 said:


> That's a pretty flawed argument- those places have those names because they were colonised by the British; I'm pretty sure the Emperor wasn't a limey. His teeth are too good. Also considering the current language of the Imperium is apparently pseudo-latin... It's wierd seeing some random English place name just tossed in there.


They were named after places from back home... just as you might expect people from Earth to do if they moved to another planet. 1 British colonist/captain names a new planet and voila: Planet Birmingham... although it could be named after something that's named after something that's named after: sorta like Futurama's New New York  (except this is 38'000 years into the future, not just 1000).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, if it wasn't for the English there'd be no New York.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah, if it wasn't for the English there'd be no New York.


Don't forget the part played by the Dutch in that too.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

They use a lot of modified current places in the description of how earth used to be....well sorta.



> Cities such as Atlantys and Nova Yourk are cited as being the most legendary and ancient cities of Old Earth. Nations known as Jermani, Merica, Britania, and Bania are said to have prospered and wilted during this time.


That's from lexicanum but i know the Nova Yourk and Atlantys information is from one of the space wolf books. It's feasable that Birmingham was namesd prior to the Emperors' unification of earth and so therefore prior to the great crusade. I seem to remember in one of the earlier rulebooks, 3rd or 4th, it being mentioned that the imperial palace covered an entire island situated off the coast of what was Europa..i might have read too much into it at the time, i'll see if i can find it again.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> They use a lot of modified current places in the description of how earth used to be....well sorta.
> 
> 
> That's from lexicanum but i know the Nova Yourk and Atlantys information is from one of the space wolf books. It's feasable that Birmingham was namesd prior to the Emperors' unification of earth and so therefore prior to the great crusade. I seem to remember in one of the earlier rulebooks, 3rd or 4th, it being mentioned that the imperial palace covered an entire island situated off the coast of what was Europa..i might have read too much into it at the time, i'll see if i can find it again.


The Emperor's Palace is situated on the Himalayas now.

Anyway Birmingham is just a nod to Birmingham tbh, not everything has to be 100% fluffy, sometimes things are put in just for the hell of it.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> sometimes things are put in just for the hell of it.


See Mad Donna Ulanti for further information.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If an alien race wanted to invade a place called Birmingham, i'd just let them. I imagine the entire planet is just living on imported goods and spending the revenue of other imperial worlds without actually producing any of its own.

God, GW did make it quite realistic.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Orochi said:


> If an alien race wanted to invade a place called Birmingham, i'd just let them. I imagine the entire planet is just living on imported goods and spending the revenue of other imperial worlds without actually producing any of its own.
> 
> God, GW did make it quite realistic.


Dunno what Birmingham you're talking about, but Birmingham in the UK is part of the Industrial Heartland. I do live and I'm from Birmingham, so be careful about who you're insulting ;-)


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Troublehalf said:


> I'm not whining. I am just stating that, on this forum at least, people have complained about certain rules, consider Gk players using Dark Excom as 'cheaters'.
> I want to avoid that.


99% of players don't have a problem with GK armies, as long as you're not a WAAC's asshat who's abusing the piss out of the book in order to ruthlessly stomp everyone!

Basically, if your opponent wants to play a 'friendly' pick-up game, don't turn around and pull out a net-list Draigo/Paladin & psybolt dread spam, because that's easily one of the most rocking lists and very few armies can deal with it unless they're also running a highly competitive build!

Likewise, if you're playing against a Daemon player, don't be a dick and spam shit like Warp Quake, Dark Ex, Banishers, Truesilver armour and all the other anti-daemon nastiness - you're mean enough without it!
That doesn't mean you can't use any of those things, but don't pull asshat moves like quake-shunting the entire fucking table 1st turn!!! (and yes, at even 1500pts, it's easily possible to cover all but a 12"x12" corner of a 6'x4' table...)

If your opponent wants a more competitive game, then up the anti some... Basically, have the decency to give your opponent a _*fun*_ game! 



Troublehalf said:


> I wanted to do a SoB army, but they just don't interest me anymore.... so Grey Knights will be my first, then SoB later. Shame Grey Knights are 1. Hard to paint 2. Expensive and 3. So variable you need lots of magnets and skills in putting them together.


Painting GK's is a sinch actually;
- prime black
- drybrush chainmail
- wash w/badab black
- lightly drybrush w/mithril silver
- light wash of asurman blue
Done! Just left with the details and such...

As for the magnets, they can be tricky, but they're not that hard to work with.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Alsojames said:


> Also, the teleporter dredknight. He fucking assaulted my Dark Reapers on the first turn.


not even possible anymore due to the FAQ so if he keep's doing it he is either cheating or ignores FAQs :laugh:.

to be honest l think necrons will decide matt fate and so help me god if necrons can take blood angles as allies....


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

sybarite said:


> not even possible anymore due to the FAQ so if he keep's doing it he is either cheating or ignores FAQs :laugh:.
> 
> to be honest l think necrons will decide matt fate and so help me god if necrons can take blood angles as allies....


Must've been before the FAQ then :/


If the crons can take BAs as allies the skies will rain fire and the Dark Gods will rape the world and whatever beauty it has left, and Matt Ward will ascend to God status as the Chaos God of screwing shit up.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> No they're definately badass, no doubt about that.
> 
> But ol' Matt Ward's fluff makes them TOO badass. Like I said earlier, Flawed Heroes>Perfect Heroes
> 
> And Ward's fluff makes him look like the kid you played action figures with as a kid but denied every move your figure made by saying NO MY GUY'S TOO BADASS YOUR MOVE DOES NOTHING


They're not TOO badass they can't take the full fury of the green tides shoota.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm sure Ward would write an update saying they can


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## Cranberry Muffinman (Jul 3, 2010)

Grey Knights Codex has Phil Kelly written all over it. They simply put Matt Wards name as the Main Write so he wouldnt throw a fit like he did a couple months before. He had a Huge tantrum at GW and basically they had to make do something to appease him

Also look at the Blood Angel Codex.. It Doesnt have one cheese unit like Space Wolves -> Phil Kelly or Grey Knights -> Phil Kelly but with Matt Wards name.

Sanguinary guard = Crap/garbage. The blood angels Codex is proof that Matt Ward Didnt write the Grey Knights Cheese Platter.


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## demonlord24 (Feb 9, 2012)

One thing that made me hate ward was the fact he wrote sisters of battle's codex. In the culmination of two paragraphs, he killed off 99.9% of the sisters... Which explains why no one plays them anymore...


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Thread necromancy!


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Taggerung said:


> Thread necromancy!



Obviously Mat Ward's fault


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

SavageConvoy said:


> Obviously Mat Ward's fault


He is the cause of all the bad things in the universe. Especially bad fluff.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

It's ALIVE!


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm just gonna say this...

OH MY FUCK GUYS JUST PUT IT TO REST.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I always wanted to be a necromancer!

But no, really. Give Matt a break- he does some dumb stuff, he does some good stuff. Just like all the other writers.

Here. Google up "Bioware Jennifer Hepler", explore the search results for awhile, and then come back saying Matt is a cancer killing whatever he writes. I'll give you a 5$ bill.


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## SuperSquid (Feb 5, 2011)

As a necron player, all i have to say is "Army wide Initiative 2,...... F U Ward"


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

SuperSquid said:


> As a necron player, all i have to say is "Army wide Initiative 2,...... F U Ward"


Make no mention of the ability to bring units back to life, take control of enemy soldiers in CC or enemy vehicles for shooting, basic troops without upgrades that can de-claw or destroy a land raider, the ability to get custom squad leaders on every unit, toughness 5 elite troops, the fact that before he wrote a necron dex they had I2 or the fact that it makes perfect fluff sense, just the mild annoyance of having to rely on shooting and CC survivability with the aforementioned T5 and good armor (and possible invul) to get hits off along with the ability to bring back your casualties for next round to win CC. I am not feeling the pain, sorry.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Necrons weakness is H2H...get over it. You have tesla weapons with arc for christ sakes! lol, I just don't like how he puts stupid fluff and just some absurd combos in the game.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I actually really like the necrons' rules. They are a funky army with some cool trends and work pretty well without being broken... although I do want to hurt whoever decided on the rules/name of Imhotek.
The reason I was annoyed with that book was purely the fluff- they took a cool background and totally changed it. Necrons waking up with massively advanced tech serving cool gods was great... whereas now they are just scavengers that felt sorry for themselves and instead of being implacable terminators they are basically just metal versions of imperials, just with no soul (actually that sounds about normal).


Generally the rules of Ward that annoy me are the dexs that just sound like someone wishlisting: it would be cool if they could do this... oh, and that... and that would be cool too. He tends to jam in strong/cool bonuses thile never thinking of a negative. Take the BA dex as an example: its full of amasing benefits for taking them over C:SM but has next to no downsides...
+ troops assault squads
+ fast vehicles
+ red thirst
+ sanguinary priests (army wide FNP/furious charge for ~150pts, yes please)
+ furioso dreads with sily weapons
+ libby dreads
+ death company/dreads
+ stormraven
+ baal preds (a decent pred version)

- chapter tactics
- sternguard
- tiny vehicle points increase

Nilla marines without special characters to play around with chapter tactics just aren't on the same planet as BA, who are so much better that its silly.
Now, in the interests of fairness I should say that I do love the BA rules... but where's the downsides to balance them. Red Thirst giving Rage, sanguinary priests possibly doing the same (eg roll a 5+ for each unit each turn and they have rage for a turn), or BA losing access to something that would hurt them such as limited heavy weapons weapons options or no bikes. Something, anything... some reason that would let a C:SM army compete on an even keel with them.... but no.


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## jondoe297 (Jan 6, 2010)

Really? This still? Yer there are flaws in the codex esp with the BA like Tim/Steve said but his dexes are good, they are playable and not mono build! To me that's awesome and fluff that's where BL come in and save the day!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Let it go people.


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## zacktheRipper (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't mind him personally. Yes, his fluff is pretty atrocious [and it makes 10,000 year old Chaos Marines sound like n00bs :S], but his rules are okay. He should tone down the power of his rules, and collaborate with better fluff-writers more often, and then I don't think anyone would mind him.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Can't really judge old books by the new standards, although I do feel a bit sorry for nids this cycle. Things change old books are often shelved 4-5 years in as armies stat to be designed for new editions and new models. Its just the nature of the evolving ever changing codex system.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I love the fact that every time theirs hate its always aimed at ward

It makes it so much more satisfying to stomp all over the extremely OP emo space elves
Seriously 11pts I7 combat drugs and power from pain?

And don't get me started on Lelith bloody hesperax. Seriously your still moaning about a 2d0 point model beating your 165 pt model with a 3+ invuln in CC


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

"As a necron player, all i have to say is "Army wide Initiative 2,...... F U Ward" "
I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean.

In my opinion the only people qualified to make any comment on Mat Ward or anyone else for that matter are those who have written and published a game system that has been in operation since the mid-80's and gone through multiple incarnations through out that time.

The requirement to make the game exciting, easy to learn, usable buy all levels of wargamer and ages from 14 to god know how old AND to be centred around a miniature model marketing plan must be an absolute nightmare.

Sure analyse what has been written, discuss pro's and con's, but until you've actually been through the process of trying to be all things to all people over a very devout and disparate target audience then you don't have any idea of the enormity of the task presented to a writer of these things.

Sorry to rant but people who sit on the sidelines and pick the faults of those on the field really annoy me.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Woo sidelines.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> In my opinion the only people qualified to make any comment on Mat Ward or anyone else for that matter are those who have written and published a game system that has been in operation since the mid-80's and gone through multiple incarnations through out that time.


Disagree. 

He has gotten much better with time, but has had some awful fuck ups. There is a reason he is known as the man who personally destroyed 7th edition fantasy. 

I haven't spent years building cars, but I know the difference between what makes a car a POS or a great car. I don't have to be something in order to have the common sense necessary to judge something. 

That said, let's let this one die. He has come a long way since fantasy daemons and necrons (as a necron player) is a good codex. It has a lot of flavour and fun builds. Sad what they did to the fluff, but it is a very playable army.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I like mat wards stuff, some of his fluff is questionable and fanboyish ill be the first to admit I cringed a bit when I read about draigo bitch slapping mortarion and burning down nurgles forest, but the one thing people bitch about when playing is DSing land raiders and how massively OP that is. Sorry but it isn't. I only ever did this once because a landraider is huge and therefore has a big chance of suffering mishap. The only thing I don't like is a 3++ save on a storm shield.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

lokis222 said:


> I haven't spent years building cars, but I know the difference between what makes a car a POS or a great car. I don't have to be something in order to have the common sense necessary to judge something.


Point is tho' you don't know what makes a great car. You know what YOU think is a great car. You have no idea what I think is a great car BUT the skill of a car maker is to make a car that both of us will buy. 

Sure they don't always get it right but this fellow writes for the most popular tabletop game in the world and is in fact about the only surviving table top game from a crop of so many.

That makes him Toyota in my book. (I drive a Subaru by the way but that just goes to show we are all different ! :biggrin: )


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Point is tho' you don't know what makes a great car. You know what YOU think is a great car. You have no idea what I think is a great car BUT the skill of a car maker is to make a car that both of us will buy.
> 
> Sure they don't always get it right but this fellow writes for the most popular tabletop game in the world and is in fact about the only surviving table top game from a crop of so many.
> 
> That makes him Toyota in my book. (I drive a Subaru by the way but that just goes to show we are all different ! :biggrin: )


but why not a pinto? how about a toyoto sienna minivan?

i don't design cars but when a car has a good chance of blowing up if rear ended.... bad car. if the minivan has a flaw that causes its acceleration pedal to stick to the floor resulting in uncontrollable acceleration.... bad car. 

see, common sense. k:

the same applies to any product to which i am not an expert. some things are obviously bad or conversely, obviously good. 

in relation to Ward.... when an armybook pretty much ruins an entire game system.... bad armybook. when a codex is well balance with many options and fun builds without being over the top OP... good codex. fortunately, Necrons is the latter example and Ward has learned how to write a good book. 

not an expert here, but i see a pattern.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

bobahoff said:


> I love the fact that every time theirs hate its always aimed at ward
> 
> It makes it so much more satisfying to stomp all over the extremely OP emo space elves
> Seriously 11pts I7 combat drugs and power from pain?
> ...


Oh yes, the OP army that is not OP at all, that is probably the most balanced codex in the range



SuperSquid said:


> As a necron player, all i have to say is "Army wide Initiative 2,...... F U Ward"


yeah being a top tier army on par with GK in terms of power, yeah WTF ward, why would you do that?


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm going to paint Tears on all my Tau to show how sad they are for Necrons getting I2.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

lokis222 said:


> but why not a pinto? how about a toyoto sienna minivan?
> 
> i don't design cars but when a car has a good chance of blowing up if rear ended.... bad car. if the minivan has a flaw that causes its acceleration pedal to stick to the floor resulting in uncontrollable acceleration.... bad car.


You are told a car has a good chance of blowing up where rear ended and you form an opinion based on that. Unless you are a car manufacturer or tester you can only have an opinion based on what others have determined. it still comes down to people who actually do the business being the critiques we listen too.

Accelerator pedal sticking is bad manufacture, bit like finecast. 



lokis222 said:


> see, common sense. k:


No an opinion nothing more.



lokis222 said:


> the same applies to any product to which i am not an expert. some things are obviously bad or conversely, obviously good.
> 
> in relation to Ward.... when an armybook pretty much ruins an entire game system.... bad armybook. when a codex is well balance with many options and fun builds without being over the top OP... good codex. fortunately, Necrons is the latter example and Ward has learned how to write a good book.
> 
> not an expert here, but i see a pattern.


Sure YOU are dissatisfied with a product and that is fine, that is still a long way from "the product is bad"

I'm too much of a noob to know which army book "ruined" the entire game system, which was it?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Warhammer fantasy daemons of chaos army book. 

Not as bad in eight, but it was pretty bad.


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I understand that it must be hard to make something "fair" and "balanced" when you're working with gamers, the group of people most likely to find 1 spelling error or game glitch to start an unstoppable fictional genocide for the lulz. So it would warrant a bit of critism from the fans, because frankly we the ones that put the whole army's ability to the real tests.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Perhaps we are missing the objective of a new army book here.

Let's see.

The all new Wardonaughts ! No real advantage over any of the other races and they have one or two things that are a bit different but we made sure we nerfed any cool stuff so that they are balanced against any other races in the game and it is all fair. So if you'd like to spend a few more grand on some groovy new models that would be good.

OR 

COMING THIS SUMMER ..... WARDS OF DEATH, they speak annihilation for anything in your path, their skills are beyond compare, all will cower or flee before you BUY THEM NOW OR SEAL YOUR DOOOOMMMMM

Which ones do reckon you'd buy lads ?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Perhaps we are missing the objective of a new army book here.
> 
> Let's see.
> 
> ...


you need to try other systems. there are a number of very cool, balanced systems that have very unique and crazy army rules. 

take a look at:

babylon 5 call to arms

malifaux (other than a few issues that the developers are actively trying to fix is brilliant)

warmahordes

i have heard good things about puppetwars

these are the ones i buy. i stick with 40k because i love the fluff. not for the game system. whenever i hear about interesting, balanced systems, i try them out. to date, i have found a number of good ones. basically, i don't think that it is quite the fixed choice as you have set out.

i also think you misunderstood me. i don't hate matt ward. i actually thought necrons was a great book. i only disagreed with your statement that a lay person lacked the ability to judge the quality of a product.


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