# How long till Tau construct Titans



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I know they have the Titan Size Atmospheric Aircraft, but what about actual Titans, they already have the Riptide now which is one step up, so surely they will eventually have a Gypsy Danger size Titan.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It's a possibility, to be frank I never considered it possible. 

But hey, Riptides. :laugh:


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I know they have the Titan Size Atmospheric Aircraft, but what about actual Titans, they already have the Riptide now which is one step up, so surely they will eventually have a Gypsy Danger size Titan.


Why should they ?

Titans are needlesly expensive and inneficient machines.

Anything that a Titan can do the Tau can do with their tanks.

If i remeber correctly Tau tanks have a winning record in direct confrontations with titans.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Why did they need the riptide? Maybe they could use a titan because of all the Tyranids and Tyranid Titan Biomorphs, they could easily have a reason for why they need one.


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## Shas'Ui (Feb 28, 2013)

It would just be a giant gun on a hover platform


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Why? The biggest characteristic of Tau is battle suits, why would they suddenly go for a big gun on a platform, I mean Eldar have both options, why would Tau be limited to just a gun on a platform, they'd surely go for a giant battle suit, they did so for the riptide.


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## Shas'Ui (Feb 28, 2013)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Why? The biggest characteristic of Tau is battle suits, why would they suddenly go for a big gun on a platform, I mean Eldar have both options, why would Tau be limited to just a gun on a platform, they'd surely go for a giant battle suit, they did so for the riptide.


 
well or just a giant suit with the most ridiculous amount of guns ever on it.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Why? The biggest characteristic of Tau is battle suits, why would they suddenly go for a big gun on a platform, I mean Eldar have both options, why would Tau be limited to just a gun on a platform, they'd surely go for a giant battle suit, they did so for the riptide.


Giant suit = giant target.

Tau battle doctrine is manouverability Titans are not that manouverable.

Tau tanks can kill titans.

A titan brings nothing to the table that the Tau dont already have.

What specifically does a titan bring which the Tau dont already have ?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

IA3 addressed this IIRC; they do not believe the Titan to be a necessary developement; designing the A-X-10 Tiger Shark to provide a mid-level combat threat to Titans due effectively being a gun with a plane attached (as opposed to a plane with a gun attached), similar to the A10 (They skipped creative-naming-101 classes).

Basically they were supersized Railguns which knocked out the Titans on Taros.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You're still thinking from an anti imperial perspective, what about Tyranids? How will a Tiger Sharks deal with being swarmed by millions of Tyranid flying creatures, or massed land based swarms? A single gun won't be enough and tons of hammerheads etc are not exactly practical or effective when they can be swarmed over. A Titan would give them the ability to wade through the swarms, carry heavier anti infantry weaponry which perhaps could be designed to face air threats to.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

godking said:


> What specifically does a titan bring which the Tau dont already have ?


Rule of cool is what Titans bring to a faction that Tau lack.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You're still thinking from an anti imperial perspective, what about Tyranids? How will a Tiger Sharks deal with being swarmed by millions of Tyranid flying creatures, or massed land based swarms? A single gun won't be enough and tons of hammerheads etc are not exactly practical or effective when they can be swarmed over. A Titan would give them the ability to wade through the swarms, carry heavier anti infantry weaponry which perhaps could be designed to face air threats to.


From Index Astartes III, describing the Battle of Macragge:



> *Neuro-path engrams of Princeps Sidarius Calvin,
> Legio Praetor Warlord Titan Semper Sanctus.
> Northern Polar Defence Grid. 745.M41*
> ...
> ...


Being that the smaller creatures are seen slowing down and clogging the joints of the Warlord Titan in question, I reckon that a Tau Titan would not be significantly more effective against the Tyranids than the AX-1-0 or Hammerhead if it can suffer the same fate as the Warlord.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Except Imperial Titans are cumbersome, I doubt Tau ones would be and I bet they'd have a lot more sophisticated defence technology. If Eldar can have Titans, I don't see why Tau would think they are to good to have some themselves.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

godking said:


> If i remeber correctly Tau tanks have a winning record in direct confrontations with titans.


Really, can I get a link on that? Not challenging anything here but it is hard for me to beleive that a Imperial Titan wouldn't just spray those tanks down in super-heated plasma and hellfire. Damn it Jim, they have Void shield!!!



Words_of_Truth said:


> Except Imperial Titans are cumbersome,


I would make an expection to that; the Warlords are quite maneuverable. While I'm no Titan expert they have a good track record of Hit-and-Run on enemy positions with little losses. However they cannot survive a strait up fight with another Titan.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Ta not currently having Titans is likely a doctrinal and technical capability issue. 

The Tau like to wage a mobile form of warfare, this influences the design of their military equipment. Their tanks are grav based, battlesuits have jump jets, Cadres have assigned orcas as standard. At every level there's the capacity for mobility. 

As such their Titans would have to be able to keep pace. This would require, very fast, jump capable titans like the eldar's and suitable transport aircraft. At the moment they lack either. Titans sized war engines also require titan level shielding, something the Tau also don't have.



godking said:


> Tau tanks can kill titans.


Hammerheads in sufficient numbers can kill warhounds. So can land raiders or leman russes. It takes a lot of them though and will be costly. 

In the fluff titans are the apex weapon in land warfare. It may not make much sense but that's how it is in the background.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

emporershand89 said:


> Really, can I get a link on that? Not challenging anything here but it is hard for me to beleive that a Imperial Titan wouldn't just spray those tanks down in super-heated plasma and hellfire. Damn it Jim, they have Void shield!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I would make an expection to that; the Warlords are quite maneuverable. While I'm no Titan expert they have a good track record of Hit-and-Run on enemy positions with little losses. However they cannot survive a strait up fight with another Titan.


During the Taros campaign a war hound was killed with ONE strafing run from a refitted tiger shark. One or two hammerheads would kill a warhound.

A titan brings nothing to the table that the Tau cannot beat with their tanks.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

godking said:


> During the Taros campaign a war hound was killed with ONE strafing run from a refitted tiger shark. One or two hammerheads would kill a warhound.
> 
> A titan brings nothing to the table that the Tau cannot beat with their tanks.


If this is true, then how can anyone claim to stand before their might of "Building an Empire."  (Wink, Wink). If a few Tau Tanks can take down the most powerful weapons in the Imperial's arsenal then why would we waste time wondering if they need build a Titan.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

emporershand89 said:


> If this is true, then how can anyone claim to stand before their might of "Building an Empire."  (Wink, Wink). If a few Tau Tanks can take down the most powerful weapons in the Imperial's arsenal then why would we waste time wondering if they need build a Titan.


AX-1-0 Variant
First seen during the Taros Campaign, the AX-1-0 variant is a Tiger Shark that's been refitted for Titan-killing duty by replacing its Ion Cannons and Drone Racks with a pair of Railguns [1a].
The AX-1-0 provided a nasty shock when a strafing run from one destroyed the Warhound Titan _Advensis Primaris_. The three other Warhounds in the battle then withdrew rather than face such firepower.[1b]

I am not saying that the Tau are invincible just that they can counter Titans and that they dont need to build Titans themselves to fight against Titans to win.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

So they got what they need against other Titans. If they would develop something to beat wave after wave of tyranids I reckon they would make a long range heavy flamer etc. A S6 Ap4 Heavy2 Torrent would do the trick. Mount these on the hammerhead chassi and you could have three to stop any number of nids short of their biotitans.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They'll need Titans if they want to expand.


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## Shas'Ui (Feb 28, 2013)

I can actually imagine a chicken walker rain gun. It wouldn't need to be big, like half the size of an Imperium Titan, and it could have massive boosters for jumping around the field.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> At every level there's the capacity for mobility.


Except the squads don't have an EMPEROR DAMNED TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT!



Shas'Ui said:


> It wouldn't need to be big, like half the size of an Imperium Titan, and it could have massive boosters for jumping around the field.


Er....isn't that basically what a riptide is?


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## Shas'Ui (Feb 28, 2013)

locustgate said:


> Except the squads don't have an EMPEROR DAMNED TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT!
> 
> 
> 
> Er....isn't that basically what a riptide is?



yeah but its just a huge gun with legs


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Shas'Ui said:


> yeah but its just a huge gun with legs


Yeah but those aren't very stable, look at SW, a bunch of furry midget bears takes out an entire army of em.

edit: and like others said that goes against tau doctrine of mobile war.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah because Eldar are very static and immobile and they don't have titans.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah because Eldar are very static and immobile and they don't have titans.


Agreed, the eldar have agile titans why can' the tau.

EDIT THIS IS NOT SARCASM!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Then why write in orange...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Then why write in orange...


It's one of the most noticeable colors along with yellow. Yellow makes my eyes bleed, so I go with orange.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

But we use orange for sarcasm..


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But we use orange for sarcasm..


It's not against the rules.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm not a fan of factions having Titans for the sake of having Titans or on account of other factions having Titans. It's more important that, after a reasonable amount of time spent fighting each other, factions capable of coming up with an answer to the Titan do so.

With that in mind, frankly, I think it's a joke that Eldar have Titans. I'm gad the Tau fielded a design that was informed by their native sensibilities.

Titans were, first and foremost, a Martian innovation that was informed by their worship of all things mechanical and by their technological capabilities and limitations. The Martians' religious convictions translate to "bigger is better" and the best way to field a weapon in their eyes is an anthropomorphic design. Titans are the logical extreme of the Martian military doctrine: logic takes second place to the celebration of mechanical power coupled with human genius and supremacism.

I encourage anyone to come up with a convincing argument as to how the Eldar mindset and ethos translate to "Giant War Machine".


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

The Tau already have an answer for Titans they don't need to build Titans.

The time and resources to build Titans and training a crew for Titans while going up against enemies with centuries of experience in Titan warface can be better spent researching and adapting the Tech they already have.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Exactly. I agree with you - that's the gist of my post's first paragraph.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

locustgate said:


> It's not against the rules.





The Rules said:


> *Only default text colour is allowed.* The majority of every post text colour should be default. Using colour to highlight important points or titles isn't a problem. Anyone that continues to post in non default text will have their post colour altered to bright pink. This applies to fonts, default font should be used for the vast majority of your posts. Posting in Red Text in whole or in part is expressly forbidden. Red is reserved for official moderator statements.




I assure you locustgate, it most certainly is.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I encourage anyone to come up with a convincing argument as to how the Eldar mindset and ethos translate to "Giant War Machine".


Whilst I agree with you, Imperial Armour Volume 11 informs us that Eldar Titans are only employed when a pitched battle is forced upon the Craftworld kin. It agrees that Titans do not suit the Eldar mindset or ethos, but are sometimes necessary as and when desperation dictates. 

Also, as far as I know most, if not all, of their Titans are wraith constructs (powered by souls and spirits which fits in with the whole desperation angle) the largest and most powerful of which (the "Phantom") is only 25 metres tall. I don't have issue with the Eldar utilising such constructs given the explanation provided.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't have a problem with the Eldar having a super-weapon of sorts. I just don't think an Titan is the right fit. Super-heavy anti-Titan grav tank? OK. A large-scale flyer with super-heavy weapons? _Even better._ A Titan, by comparison, is a shoehorned solution.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

As someone mentioned because rule of cool? 

Titans whether they make sense or not are available to multiple races and for Tau not to have some sort of giant walker is a missed opportunity, whether it makes sense for them to have one or not. They could be developed as a last line of defence for sept worlds, or utilized to break sieges etc etc, I'm fairly sure the Tau would appreciate the effect having a giant construct has on a battle not just physically but mentally as well.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The eldar have titans for the same reason that they have any other humanoid wraitbone construction. It is easier for the eldar soul to control than a tank.



darkreever said:


> I assure you locustgate, it most certainly is.


Well fuck looks like I'll be ignored again.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

locustgate said:


> It is easier for the eldar soul to control than a tank.


That actually seems rather reasonable to me.



locustgate said:


> Well fuck looks like I'll be ignored again.


Yeah...cause your the only one in the history of the internet who's posts have been glossed over from time to time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> The eldar have titans for the same reason that they have any other humanoid wraitbone construction. It is easier for the eldar soul to control than a tank.


I'll buy into that.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Expanding on the thing about what comes natural. To the air caste, the pilots of the tiger shark and etc, flying comes more natural to them than piloting a battlesuit, and the fire caste is able to take out titans, en numbers, that covers the 2 'fighting' castes, so the tau don't really need a titan suit. As for the siege breakers well that's why the fire caste has the riptide, the first official field action a suit took was in leveling a hive city's outer wall, in one shot.

In patient hunter 3 riptides destroyed an entire hive city's armored battalion something around what 500 russes and at least 1 super heavy all in a night.

EDIT: I could see an influential (earth caste making/a fire caste commissioning) a battlesuit that can take on a titan.

EDIT 2: But if it failed you could expect that tau to at the very least be forced into retirement or meet a valiant end testing out their failed creation.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Why... though.

What does a Titan bring that an AX10 cannot?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Size is the only real reason. 

Until that kind of size is better served on the ground than in the air titans won't even be considered.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll buy that an anthropomorphic form is easier for the Eldar to control. Fair point. It still strikes me as more "rule of cool" than something that makes sense, though. There are better ideas out there. I'm sure professional game designers could come up with something better.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the answer, but here's an idea I had after one minute of thought, which I feel fits Eldar ethos far better:

Rather than a Titan for a Titan's sake, ask yourself this... what if two or more Craftworlds that joined forces were able to psychically link their temples and performed a ritual that summoned a single, more powerful Avatar of Khaine rather than two fragments of his essence?

That sounds eminently more interesting to me than "We should build a giant Wraithlord so that we can stand up to armies with giant robots in pitched battle... even though *our entire theme* centers on how there are so few of us left, and how we try to avoid pitched battles whenever able."

To say nothing of the fact that the Avatar of Khaine is _supposed to be_ the embodiment of a Craftworld's warrior culture, mentality, and society. The fact that the Eldar god of war since time immemorial could be humiliated in an instant by a giant wraithlord robot sounds absolutely terrible to me.

Another added benefit to this would have been rehabilitating the Avatar's image after so many recent abuses. By re-emphasizing that individual Craftworld's are only able to summon forth a single fragment of Khaine, and that their war-god was once so much more, you can kind of get over the silliness of even a Chapter Master taking one down.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Avatar of Khaine would wreck any Titan though, possibly even more than one at the same time.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Tau don't need Titans because they don't want to waste large amounts of resources on Titans, and they don't need them. The Tau can mount Pulse Submunition Cannons on a Riptide chassis; I doubt they need to go much bigger than that.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

While there have been a lot of posts about the Riptides and the modified Tiger Sharks taking out War Hound titans or companies of tanks, a central theme in Titan battles is dealing first with the Void Shields on everything from a Reaver on up. The Tau would need to have their mobility as their only option would be to "Run away!!" Either that, or hope they can bring enough synchronized mass fire to every battle with the Imperium that might field a Titan.

Hmmmmm... there's a thought, when three or more Riptides work together, they have the ability to network their fire control systems and have the effect of much larger Titans. Until an Imperator comes along, then they're just toast.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Hmmmmm... there's a thought, when three or more Riptides work together, they have the ability to network their fire control systems and have the effect of much larger Titans. Until an Imperator comes along, then they're just toast.



It looked like you were about to say three riptides connect into one big mech like Megazord or something. :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)




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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The Tau already have experimental Terra world sized space cannons, when a titan appears on a battlefield they aim the craftworld sized Cannon and fire it at the titan.

There is no need for the tau to make a titan, when the space sized cannons fulfill the purpose of a line breaker already/anti titan.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> It looked like you were about to say three riptides connect into one big mech like Megazord or something. :laugh:


Then the White Megaman joins with the Blue Megaman and the Red Megaman to make Mega-Mega Man!! :grin:


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Lux said:


> The Tau already have experimental Craftworld sized space cannons, when a titan appears on a battlefield they aim the craftworld sized Cannon and fire it at the titan.


Wait... as in moon size cannon? Haven't heard of that one yet, but that's not saying much. I suppose it would make a lot more sense to just bombard something from orbit... although you'll have to ensure your own troops/cities aren't within several kilometers of the blast zone or risk vaporizing them in the process.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Wait... as in moon size cannon? Haven't heard of that one yet, but that's not saying much. I suppose it would make a lot more sense to just bombard something from orbit... although you'll have to ensure your own troops/cities aren't within several kilometers of the blast zone or risk vaporizing them in the process.


Pretty sure that when the Tau army spots a Titan, if they are unable to overcome it with their ground forces then they have already suffered extreme losses. Thus the Terra world sized hyper cannon would in all likelihood be doing less damage overall, even if it causes some controlled collateral damage it would prevent the Titan from causing immeasurable uncontrolled damage.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Lux, you slay me :laugh:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lux is overexaggerating the Tau's Orbital Cannon from the... I want to say Soulstorm game.

Considering that was developed with Iron Lore's "ooh cool", and is about as canonical as an Islamic Pope, it can really be discounted; not to mention the variable endings making it hard to have a progressive story line.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Tawa said:


> Lux, you slay me :laugh:


I think many tend to underestimate the Tau, the Titans concept doesn't align with the war philosophy that the Tau hold. That is why they constructed the Terra World Sized Hyper Cannons instead, they fire a beam of which the radius itself can be as wide as the radius of Terra.

Furthermore rather than attempt to blow something up, the Tau Terra World Sized Hyper Cannons send out an infinite number of black holes that last for the duration of the beams blast. Furthermore the beam is also filled with an infinite number of spontaneously fluctuating super novas that are rapidly coming into existence within the radius of the beam. Finally the beam also accelerates all reality, and matter below that of absolute 0 which in turns causes the bonds between corks to break down thus releasing explosions that dwarf any known bomb.

To top it all off, the Tau Terra Sized World Hyper Cannons are equipped with their post light speed engines, seeing as the front half of the terra world sized cannon is the cannon opening itself, and the back half is the single large thruster. Thus the Tau possess Terra world sized hyper cannons that are able to travel, and maneuver at post light speed, fire from over several galaxies away, and is able to focus the beam down to that of a pin needle (assassination methods). Why would they need a titan?

And yes if they are not careful, the cannon does have the potential for mass collateral damage as seen below.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Actually, maybe she's just putting PCP in her coffee.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Actually, maybe she's just putting PCP in her coffee.


The Tau are immensely powerful, the information we know about them is deliberately inaccurate due to the inquisition not wanting to incite panic within the consumer base of the imperium.

The Tau empire is far larger, and growing at a rate that the Imperium does not want to publicly admit. Furthermore there are report as well as sightings of the Tau Mecha Primarchs, those are truly dangerous.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Lux said:


> Furthermore there are report as well as sightings of the Tau Mecha Primarchs, those are truly dangerous.


i lol'd


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That's not coffee, that's pure heroine.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lux, do you propose that the Tau stole the technology from their Eldar overseers? We know the Eldar have guided them from afar based on _Xenology_.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Imho it would be quite logical to assume that most of the dark ages tech and before is based of eldar tech one way or another e.g chainswords, maybe even titan idea was burrowed aswell. 
Tau titan seems like a logical progression after Riptide, bit smaller than phantom perhaps but as agile and with lots of firepower. Imagine 3 riptides in a single body?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Avatar of Khaine would wreck any Titan though, possibly even more than one at the same time.


I'm... not tracking your logic. As of last edition, the Avatar of Khaine cannot wreck _any_ Titan. Even a Wolfhound Titan would annihilate one in _very_ short order. Where the _theoretical_ Avatar that I'm proposing is concerned, you can't very well say what it could or could not do when there aren't any game statistics for it! :biggrin:

Ideally, said Avatar would be competitive with one or more classes of Titans, period.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

In Wrath of Iron, some lowly daemonette of Slannesh destroyed a Titan (the class I forget).


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

*confiscates the crack-pipe*

The Tau having a Death Star planet-blower-upper gun makes no sense to me whatsoever.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In Wrath of Iron, some lowly daemonette of Slannesh destroyed a Titan (the class I forget).


That doesn't mean it's a valid example, though. Certain authors have Terminators doing backflips, for instance. No one's racing to argue that Tactical Dreadnought Armour is capable of acrobatic maneuvers, though. :wink:

*Edit:* Chris Wraight didn't deserve that comparison! People, don't take that as a condemnation of his work!


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In Wrath of Iron, some lowly daemonette of Slannesh destroyed a Titan (the class I forget).


How? If she/he/it did it through one of the crew members that's possible if it did it by running up to the titan and hitting it.....no...just...no


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I would love to meet Lux in real life.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

In one of the _Eisenhorns_, an unbound daemon, Cherubael, slew a Warlord Titan I believe. 

In the ork Codex, Wazdakka Gutsmek achieved a similar feat by riding his warbike off a cliff and into the Titan's cockpit. Caught fire during the transition through its void shields and killed the crew while he was still burning. 


Why would the tau want something so flimsy in their arsenal? :laugh:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Lux, do you propose that the Tau stole the technology from their Eldar overseers? We know the Eldar have guided them from afar based on _Xenology_.


I am glad you have requested more information upon the matter Malus Darkblade, for most do not see passed the propaganda that is so heavily polluting all streams of imperial media including the heavily edited text from the black library we have access to. 

The Tau's "Giant Red Sun Sized Hyper Cannons" are indeed impressive as they are able to cause explosions on a monumentally unparalleled level, however the question then arises from where did they acquire such technology to construct this marvel? The Eldar in particular were created by the old ones (or so they say - if you want to know more upon this deep path of heresy please fill out a request form), however the Eldar were coded to an atomic level to carry out a deep underlying mission. 

The Old ones believed all life needed to be guided by their divine hand, that it was only through their path of light that existence could flourish. During the war of ancients the Old ones constructed the Eldar, and while doing so coded the Eldar to fulfill the Old One's mission. They were to create life in similar fashion that the Old One's had, and to nurture and guide all life created by them upon a path of salvation.

The Tau are but one of the Eldar's creations, genetically created to maximize survival in the context of their current existence which just happens to be a chaotically enriched one. Along with their genetic traits being hand sculpted the Eldar also imputed into the Tau Genetic code a chrono flux sequential line of data. Thus as time would pass the sequential code would become decyphered thus imputing a gestalt like source of knowledge into the Tau, an underlying inherent understanding into every newborn Tau post of the sequential shift. 

The Eldar were similar in their creation, for the old ones programmed the Eldar to also gain more knowledge and understanding of scientific creation as time passed. Thus every generation of eldar that was brought into existence came forth with a greater inherent understanding, and a greater inherent source of knowledge regarding existence. The Eldar's creation of the blackstone fortresses was a result of this chrono sequential unlock, and in similar fashion the Eldar programmed it into the Tau. Thus once the Tau had reached the appropriate digit into the chrono sequential line of code they gained the knowledge and understanding to create "black stone fortresses". 

However the Eldar had saw the flaws in their initial designs of the black stone fortress and thus sought to improve upon them, rather than having moon sized orbital cannons capable of warp travel they coded an improved design into the Tau. Thus the Tau created "Giant Red Sun Sized Hyper Cannons", which are larger than a giant red sun and rather than firing energy of the warp they channel the energy of the lack of matter. To clarify when the "Giant Red Sun Sized Hyper Cannons" fire they deaccelerate all matter within their beam's area of fire to below 0, this in turn causes all bonding between all matter at the quark & gluon level ceases to be. This in turn causes a massive amount of energy to be released as the bonds between the tightest chains of matter ceases to be, thus the greatest amount of destruction possible is released. Furthermore the amount of destruction brought forth is on an infinite scale, this is due to the fact that an infinite amount of quarks & gluons are being un-linked within the beams radius simultaneously. 

Additionally the Giant Red Sun Sized Hyper Cannons are equipped with post light speed engines, so as to eliminate maneuverability issues. Thus when an enemy titan appears on the field the Tau are able to move in the giant sun sized hyper cannon faster than the speed of light, fire the beam and eliminate the target. However since the Hyper cannons are moving faster than the speed of light all time outside of the construct is slowing down in relativity to the construct itself, thus as they accelerate faster passed the speed of light time begins to move backwards relative to the construct moving forward. This allows the Tau to have the hyper cannons in position before the enemy even arrives, however dangers come with this such as altering the time stream and creating a plethora of multiple time streams.\

If you would like to know more, please fill out the Imperial Request Form #3629


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

One reason the Tau may not feel the Titan-Class weapon is valid in their meta is that they are a race with limited resources, unlike the Imperium, or even the straightened Eldar. If the Eldar need a giant suit, they grow one from the Living bones of their world-ship. The Imperium sends entire sectors worth of raw materials to Forge Worlds to create the Titan Legions. The orks just pile junk up until it comes to life. 

The Tau are not as hugely industrialized as the Imperium. They may have the technical ability to make a Titan Class system, but probably lack the infrastructure, manufacturing and raw material requirements.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Creon said:


> stuff


Just to clarify the only planets in the Imperium legally allowed, by the ad mech, to build titans are forge worlds (Imperial Armor 1). Hive worlds do have large amounts of industry but usually this is tanks,heavy tanks, ammo, guns (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Macherius series, IG dex). There are about 32.4k hive worlds each hive and forge world requires agri worlds, or else they will starve. So most of the imperial worlds are agri, civilized (worlds that make enough food and gear for themselves), with death/feral worlds making up the rest. Sooooo..most of the imperium is agrarian. 

Eldar titans are only ever deployed when a craft world is determined to be in dire trouble, i.e. about to fall (IA vol 11). I can't find anything on how long it takes to make 

Most tau worlds will fall into civilized with more hive worlds near the closer to T'au you get. Worlds with high mineral wealth give over to mostly earth caste, so tau forge worlds.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Worlds with high mineral wealth give over to mostly earth caste, so tau forge worlds.


No offense, but that's quite a leap.

Mind you, I don't have the Tau Codex. If it contains a sentence that qualifies the existence of Tau forge world equivalents, then fair enough! Otherwise, I think it's quite a stretch to assume industry to a level that it _covers an entire planet._


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> _covers an entire planet._


True but a but a tau 'forge' world, not the same but one more devoted to mass production.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

So far everyone's forgotten one principle when it comes to Tau 'mechs': Even a Riptide is only a single pilot in a battlesuit. I'm not sure what it takes to pilot a tank, but from what I've read, Tau tend to only need a single pilot, plus Drone-controls for weaponry.

I'm not sure that you can run a Titan-scale system on a single pilot. Tau doctrine would stop them from running something that large. If anything, they'd just build a different Riptide with a pair of Railguns or something.

Vaguely off topic: Chapter House built a Tau Titan. It's a multi-legged walker with rail guns.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

locustgate said:


> True but a but a tau 'forge' world, not the same but one more devoted to mass production.


You can't begin to compare a forge world with a planet that's "merely" heavily geared toward industrial output. Again, the former is completely and utterly devoted to manufacture. You can't begin to compare the productivity of the two.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Xabre said:


> I'm not sure that you can run a Titan-scale system on a single pilot.
> .


Eldar titans are 1 pilot supported by eldar spirits and over all an imperial titan is still a pilot supported by servitors and people that monitor energy flow. Then again I don't know much about imperial titans.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

locustgate said:


> Eldar titans are 1 pilot supported by eldar spirits and over all an imperial titan is still a pilot supported by servitors and people that monitor energy flow. Then again I don't know much about imperial titans.


Imperial titans differ from one forge world to another. But they ALWAYS include a princeps (pilot) and a moderati (co pilot). Usually two more personal for targeting and monitoring and a multitude of servitors to perform battle repairs and ongoing maintenance.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

_Galaxy in Flames, Helsreach, and Space Marine_ all offer perspectives on how the Princeps and his crew run a Titan. That's three off the top of my cranium.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> _Galaxy in Flames, Helsreach, and Space Marine_ all offer perspectives on how the Princeps and his crew run a Titan. That's three off the top of my cranium.


Do you mind explaining I don't have those books.

In of Mars the princep aimed and moved the titan and ordered the servitor to fire the gun, which the crew couldn't override without blowing the titan up. Then again this princep was ancient and little more than a floating torso and head.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Imho i guess it really depends on the writer, but Dan Abnett wrote the best titan controls and fights, read his book Titanicus.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gladly - tomorrow. It's almost 3 AM here, and I was up only to watch the Liverpool game.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Stormxlr said:


> Imho i guess it really depends on the writer, but Dan Abnett wrote the best titan controls and fights, read his book Titanicus.


Titanicus. Awesome book right there!

I WANT MOAR!!! :good:


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Tawa said:


> Titanicus. Awesome book right there!


Eh....was ok. Titans are not all that special. It's like reading a Star Trek dramam in book form; kind of sucks. Better to watch them than read of them; I for one want Dark Millenium back......NOW!!!!


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> In Wrath of Iron, some lowly daemonette of Slannesh destroyed a Titan (the class I forget)


If I remember correctly, they didn't destroy the titan but managed to break into the cockpit and kill the princeps.... Something like that, I think. 

It's pretty simple though. Imperium likes it big. It's evident in everything. Tau likes it small, in most cases, and practical ofc.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> I'm... not tracking your logic. As of last edition, the Avatar of Khaine cannot wreck _any_ Titan. Even a Wolfhound Titan would annihilate one in _very_ short order. Where the _theoretical_ Avatar that I'm proposing is concerned, you can't very well say what it could or could not do when there aren't any game statistics for it! :biggrin:
> 
> Ideally, said Avatar would be competitive with one or more classes of Titans, period.


Old post, but still, the idea of merging two Avatars is more silly than a Giant Wraithlord with Void Shields. AoK statues are pre built constructs that await the sacrifice of a Exarch. In no way is it shown or suggested it could reform into a bigger statue on a dime, they are pre made by said Craftworld.

Makes way more sense to make a Giant Wraithlord that is immune to most fire power while one shotting anything with its armament, or stomping small army men  Since said Eldar Titans would be easier to control as a living body than any tank, as well the fact they are so dang nimble fits the ethos really nicely.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To be honest, I'm not aware of Avatars of Khaine being pre-built statues. My concept was based on the idea that it is the Avatar is an amalgam of the shard of Khaine's psychic essence, the body and soul of the Exarch who was selected to be the Young King, and a psychically-forged construct/body that is the product of the entire summoning ceremony.

As such, what I'm proposing is neither a "Voltron"-like structure nor two Craftworlds getting together and sculpting a bigger-than-normal statue. That idea in and of itself is rather contradictory to the setting, I would think, since it begs the question as to why the Craftworlds weren't doing so to begin with. If the Avatar of each Craftworld really is a shard of the war-god' shattered sum, though, it would stand to reason that two Craftworlds, each of which is in "possession" of such a shard, could form a greater sum.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> To be honest, I'm not aware of Avatars of Khaine being pre-built statues. My concept was based on the idea that it is the Avatar is an amalgam of the shard of Khaine's psychic essence, the body and soul of the Exarch who was selected to be the Young King, and a psychically-forged construct/body that is the product of the entire summoning ceremony.
> 
> As such, what I'm proposing is neither a "Voltron"-like structure nor two Craftworlds getting together and sculpting a bigger-than-normal statue. That idea in and of itself is rather contradictory to the setting, I would think, since it begs the question as to why the Craftworlds weren't doing so to begin with. If the Avatar of each Craftworld really is a shard of the war-god' shattered sum, though, it would stand to reason that two Craftworlds, each of which is in "possession" of such a shard, could form a greater sum.


The said craftworlds should merge the essence each have shared to remake the all powerful God of War. A overlook plot hole IMO.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'd rather think that given the Fluff I've read, the shards worked into the Avatars are small enough and activated rarely enough that She Who Thirsts doesn't notice them. Make the Avatar bigger, and you attract attention from places beyond space and time, a Bad Thing.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

From what i read of the Doom of Mymera the forge world book, its says avatars come in all types of sizes some being as tall as mountins


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## Jolnir (Feb 11, 2014)

To me, it is not a matter of what resources it would take to build a Titan, but more about _what the Tau could have built with these resources_. Between a Titan and an x number of railgun toting tanks and ships, I'm sure that they will take the tanks/ships all day.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Titans are available to the Imperium because of it's amazing and extensive resource strip mining and construction of Massive ForgeWorld complexes. The Tau probably could make titans, as they have the tech, they just don't have the resources to do so and support their normal army and navy, required for the next Expansion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

However long it takes for Tau engineers to, as a whole, either go insane or retarded. Perhaps both. 

Titans are…… retarded. There isn't any real way around it. Why would I dump such a massive amount of time and money into a bipedal, 100+ foot tall weapons platform? Sticking that much armor and that many weapons on a giant bipedal platform is -and I can't stress this enough- STUPID. No, the bovine-tuna-men like to put their giant guns on planes, which, if I'm being honest, is a whole lot less moronic than what the Imperium and Eldar love to pull. At the very least it has mobility on it's side. 

That being said, if they come out with a giant broadside on an anti-grav plate I just might squeal.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> The said craftworlds should merge the essence each have shared to remake the all powerful God of War. A overlook plot hole IMO.


There's a flawed logic to that assertion: it assumes that, ...

1. ... it's easy for Craftworlds to come together, and ...
2. ... The number of Craftworlds equals the number of shards of Khaine.

What I envision should be something incredibly rare in occurrence. And regardless, how many Craftworlds are there?



The Irish Commissar said:


> From what i read of the Doom of Mymera the forge world book, its says avatars come in all types of sizes some being as tall as mountins


Nice spot, Irish! I'll have to check it out. 



Creon said:


> I'd rather think that given the Fluff I've read, the shards worked into the Avatars are small enough and activated rarely enough that She Who Thirsts doesn't notice them. Make the Avatar bigger, and you attract attention from places beyond space and time, a Bad Thing.


I rather like that idea - it could make for a fun game rule. Something like, if you get an "advanced" Avatar of Khaine, your opponent can include a Slaneeshi detachment as some sort of "ally".


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## Jolnir (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm of the opinion that walkers in general are of poor design. Too many moving parts and open joints. Why not just blow a walker's knee out with a railgun? A giant tank can cover it's tracks at least and doesn't need to stand hundreds of feet tall.


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