# Why is Counter hated?



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Question: Why is Ben Counter so damn hated?? His Grey Knights novels, while not Black libraries greatest works, were still solid novels. 

Once again I will state that its not the best work, Mcneille and Abnett have far better character development skills than him, but the story still draws you in, and its not absurd with the fluff. The character Alaric isn't running around mercing greater demons (just one and it wasn't a renown one or your usual greater demon of Tzeentch) and what not. In fact the characters didn't even really take on lesser demons. 

I ask this because I just finished his story sacrifice in the new short story collection for space marines, and it was the best one out of the whole lot. The italicized parts that described some of the things done to keep the Grey Knights functioning was awesome. It was much better than the usual SM smash that the other stories were.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

I take it you haven't read _Battle for the Abyss_ yet. One of the worst *ever* Black Library books that I've read. I haven't read anything by CS Goto yet, but still...


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I must admit of all the HH books I really didnt like battle for the Abyss. The only reason I finished reading it was due to not wanting to miss something, possibly related to some of the other books in the series further down the line.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Personally I thought battle for the abyss was ok. I liked it far more than legion, which many consider one of the better books 

Bane, if you ever read goto, counter is tolkien, clancy or grisham depending on your cup of tea.

The final grey knight book i disliked alot though


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I loved his Soul Drinker books and do not remember anything horrid about the BftA, he is not the best author but still puts out some decent stuff.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

The problem people have with him isn't his Grey Knight books, or his Soul Drinker books. What people hate him for is all the god modding he does. If you've read Daemon World, he creates a legendary figure who destroys one of the Chaos gods greatest prizes. He also kills off hundreds of Violators and two daemon princes. He has a tendency to cast Chaos with an incredible imagination but without a hope in hell of making it through a book without monumental losses.

What he did in Grey Knights was he made figures of such legendary prowess that you accepted their victories. What he did with the Soul Drinkers is he made an entire chapter who doesn't win effortlessly but in fact begins to die throughout the novels. 

The problem I personally have is with Dark Mechanicus. The Black Legion warlord bombs a field of Titans because he was insulted. He was a great character up until then but then he just throws away victory a the Cadian gate because he was pissed, and basically all of the characters survived in that book. A ship was almost destroyed. One of the inquisitors routine was nearly killed. One of the Mechanicus bod was almost destroyed. All this ultimately leads to is mock peril. It just ruins a good story when the baddies lose utterly and the goodies leave with nothing more than flesh wounds.

It takes brilliant stories and characters and then just ruins them. Its not like the conflict in Storm of Iron, its like Calgar beating the Avatar. This hard won, nail bitingly tense fight is made to seem so much less dramatic because everyone miraculously survives at the end. It weakens the threat and dilutes the story which is a real shame because their good books.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He butchers fluff




Helsreach said:


> The problem people have with him isn't his Grey Knight books, or his Soul Drinker books.


Not true. His GK series is a prime example of his utter disregard for existing fluff and I could not get past fifty or so pages of his SD omnibus


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I think he is great. He ain`t Abnett, but he is certainly not a bad author. 

And... The GK novels were amazing!!!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The main issue most people seem to have is _Battle for the Abyss_, that god awful piece of shit.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The main issue most people seem to have is _Battle for the Abyss_, that god awful piece of shit.


I enjoyed this book a lot. I don't know why it is soooooooo hated.
Ok so character development isnt that good but it was enjoyable to me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I enjoyed this book a lot. I don't know why it is soooooooo hated.
> Ok so character development isnt that good but it was enjoyable to me.


I found a review on Amazon a while ago which sums up my views:



> I shall keep this short and sweet, and sadly harsh. Battle for the Abyss is a very anti-climactic mess filled with annoying repetition, stereotypical, bland characters formed from the personifications of their chapter traits. The Ultramarine is regimented, the Space Wolf a drunken brawler, the World Eater does a hulk smash, and the Word Bearers chant of a directionless and uninsightful philosophy given no depth. They follow a religion whose sole creed is to be a religion.
> 
> The first half of the book wastes no time dropping you into the action, and it suprisingly backfires. We learn nothing of the goals, desires, flaws, or fears of either the heretics or the loyalists. There is a naval engagement, a scene in the warp (with gribblies) and those two events with recycle repeatedly.
> 
> ...


What I will add to it though is the terrible portrayal the Word Bearers received. These are the architects of the entire Heresy, yet they were portrayed as blithering idiots, constantly mumbling on about _"the Word"_. As well as that entire squads of Word Bearers Astartes were cut down by the ragtag band of a few loyalist Astartes, its just pathetic. 

The plot itself had a lot of potential I feel, yet its executive was absolutely terrible.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I found a review on Amazon a while ago which sums up my views:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I can see where you are coming from. 
Sometimes I just go along with things too easily. Maybe the space wolf was depicted as a druken idiot because his Legion was a reputation for that but I do agree with the Word Bearers part.

Oh well, at least its one less thing I have to complain about


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Maybe the space wolf was depicted as a druken idiot because his Legion was a reputation for that but I do agree with the Word Bearers part.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


>


That picture clearly sums up the character development of the novel, its actually quite scary. You'll get nothing more out of the novel in terms of the characters than you would get just by looking at that picture. :shok:


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He butchers fluff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then you missed out, the series is great and probably his best work IMHO.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think it'd be interesting if this topic was ever brought to Ben Counter or the Heresy Team, as to why they decided this novel was necessary for publishing.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

See I also think that you guys give WAY to much credit to the authors into what they write. I am sure they have some liberty but overall the editors at the BL has the main say so. Read the authors note on the SD books to see that, they originally where suppose to be a Chaos chapter.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Only BC could make a character get 8 spider legs and think he's blessed by the Emperor. And Astartes that take their slave crew with them in boarding missions? lulz


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Only BC could make a character get 8 spider legs and think he's blessed by the Emperor. And Astartes that take their slave crew with them in boarding missions? lulz


Taking the slaves with them was for a pretty specific job. They were storming a space station, breaking stuff left right and centre. They took servitors with them to either fix stuff or cut through bulkheads, leaving the Marines to go about their killing and smashing stuff up.

I'm not a huge fan of BC but other than Battle for the Abyss his books aren't that bad. He writes pure bolter porn, nothing more nothing less. If you want good solid character development read Dan Abnett (who I still haven't forgiven for the monstrosity that was the Ultramarines movie screenplay!:ireful2 or if you want a darker angle on things read ADB. 

Battle For The Abyss was a horrible book, it made no sense within the HH setting and added absolutely nothing to the ongoing story or development of the setting. 
Soul Drinkers, on the other hand, is a cool story, it shows the whole 40K setting from a new perspective with an army that are loyal to themselves and nothing else. There are some fluff discrepancies here and there, but BL authors do that, it keeps the setting alive and keeps things moving in an otherwise static environment. 
I enjoy reading the books regardless and the only ones who end up have a real issue with it are fluff nazis who need to get out more often. 
Honestly, there is a world that exists outside of 40K fluff, it's real, I've seen it, there's pubs, shops, gigs and women there!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Battle for the Abyss isn't a masterpiece, but I think if you treat it as the *literary equivalent of a popcorn action flick*, it's enjoyable to some degree 

I think most of Ben's other work is quite decent. Out of the BL authours whose works I've read, Abnett, ADB, and Nick Kyme are my favourites (in that order)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> These are the architects of the entire Heresy, yet they were portrayed as blithering idiots, constantly mumbling on about _"the Word"_.


A b-b-bird bird bird, bird is the word...

Midnight


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> A b-b-bird bird bird, bird is the word...
> 
> Midnight


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Taking the slaves with them was for a pretty specific job. They were storming a space station, breaking stuff left right and centre. They took servitors with them to either fix stuff or cut through bulkheads, leaving the Marines to go about their killing and smashing stuff up.


And yet they are the only Chapter out there that does this.

99% of Chapters use Melta bombs during their boarding missions and have Tech-Marines to deal with the fixing, reprogramming stuff.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

I've enjoyed his works so far. Some folks are looking for a new "Goto" to hate on, so it appears that some folks have latched onto him because they can't do it against McNeill, Abnett, ADB or Kyme without massive rejection on the forums.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Funny how you listed two authors who disregard existing fluff vs those who don't.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet they are the only Chapter out there that does this.
> 
> 99% of Chapters use Melta bombs during their boarding missions and have Tech-Marines to deal with the fixing, reprogramming stuff.


Just because other chapters don't seem to do this is doesn't mean the SD shouldn't or can't do it. Really, something so trivial would stop you reading a book?
Why waste time on a mission fixing airlocks or building barracades when you could be doing what you're best at, killing things? What else are servitors for? If it's so anti fluff to have servitors appear alongside SM's in battle then why does a Techmarine come with servitors, 0-5 to be exact, are they just there to look good while the techy does all the work?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I for one love his Soul Drinker novels, they're my favorite series period, and loved Galaxy in Flames. I hear no one bitching about that. Daemon World had good parts, but was WAY to Fantasy in the end for me. I have no intrest in GK series or that awfule Ultra loving novel Battle for the Abyss.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet they are the only Chapter out there that does this.
> 
> 99% of Chapters use Melta bombs during their boarding missions and have Tech-Marines to deal with the fixing, reprogramming stuff.





normtheunsavoury said:


> Just because other chapters don't seem to do this is doesn't mean the SD shouldn't or can't do it. Really, something so trivial would stop you reading a book?
> Why waste time on a mission fixing airlocks or building barracades when you could be doing what you're best at, killing things? What else are servitors for? If it's so anti fluff to have servitors appear alongside SM's in battle then why does a Techmarine come with servitors, 0-5 to be exact, are they just there to look good while the techy does all the work?


Wow really, ever thought they didnt have Melta Bombs or Meltas on them? Servitors being put to wok? No way!


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Ben Counter is hated for a similar reason Matt Ward is hated. This is the internet and people like jumping on a hate bandwagon. They'll pick out one or two things in the fluff they don't like and make him out to be the WORST author ever because of it.

Every series of books that is written by multi authors should hope and pray that the worst book in the series is something like Battle for the Abyss. The book wasn't bad, it just didn't have the makings of a Fulgrim or Legion or TFH.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Wow really, ever thought they didnt have Melta Bombs or Meltas on them? Servitors being put to wok? No way!


my mind has been shattered. no comment.

@Wus: so it has nothing to do with the fluff errors, and the actual writing, it's just people hopping on a bandwagon? k


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

10 bucks says that the next Counter book that comes out that the haters love, they'll immediately forget that they were hating on him earlier & find a new author to latch their Goto hate onto. Then, later when confronted with a "Why the about-face with your stance on Ben Counter?", they'll feign ignorance until posts are dug out from the past & then they'll either not bother responding to the question, or drum up some flimsy excuse about how....I dunno...the sun was in their eyes that day, or how someone pooped in their milkshake at work earlier & they were in a foul mood when they posted, because like CSM with their gene-seeds removed, the taint is still there & their milkshake still tasted funny afterwards.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Hmmm Internet suicide - I should do this on facebook and put it on UTube, anyway here goes.

I like Ben Counter books;
I like CS Goto books;
I have read a Dan Abnett book that sucked.

Dont think I am not going to be able to pre empt an attempt by anti heretic death squads from both the GK's and the DW's as well as the Assassinorum.

Here I am - a triple Heretic.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> Hmmm Internet suicide - I should do this on facebook and put it on UTube, anyway here goes.
> 
> I like Ben Counter books;
> I like CS Goto books;
> ...


Originally, I didn't mind CS Goto, until I read a short story in the "Legends of the Space Marines" that honestly didn't make a single bit of fekking sense. Then I started to think about the Blood Ravens Omnibus that he did the 3 DoW books. Then I started to think about all the other things that I saw that kinda didn't make sense at the time. Once you couple that with all the other goodies folks have brought up that I didn't see at the time, then my dislike for his works can into fruition with me.

As for Abnett, I'm not horribly fond of his Gaunts Ghosts line (I will finish it, as I've bought it all, so might as well), but I finished his "Brothers of the Snake" book and loved it immensely.

With Ben Counter, I loved the Grey Knights Omnibus. Haters can hate for all they want with him, I enjoyed it and probably will remain the same with his other works as the other books he's done: Space Marines & more Space Marines.


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Hahaha the internet assholes syndrome! I like Ben Counter, and yes, he may write action, and yes, he may take a little bit of liberty with his fluff, but guys. The Imperium is a big place, with plenty of room for deviation. 

Also, after Dark Mechanicus, I believe that most of that squad got killed when Alaric was captured in Daemon World. And if anyone in the 40k Universe is able to be done as an army of invincible rambos, surely it's the GK? Perhaps they should have taken a hapless ultramarine, developed his character, made him save someone's life and then brutally killed him off just to demonstrate that the GK ARE better? Would this have solved everyone's hate issues?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Doelago said:


> I think he is great. He ain`t Abnett, but he is certainly not a bad author.
> 
> And... The GK novels were amazing!!!


Meh, silly Doelago. Even I feel like I was reading someone`s first novel whenever I read Counter`s work. Its passable but I don`t think I`d rate any of them as "amazing."



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The main issue most people seem to have is _Battle for the Abyss_, that god awful piece of shit.


I read this, and cannot remember a shred of it. Obviously nothing special then.  



MuSigma said:


> Hmmm Internet suicide - I should do this on facebook and put it on UTube, anyway here goes.
> 
> I like Ben Counter books;
> I like CS Goto books;
> ...


I don`t have a problem with any author to be honest. Some are clearly better than others and some take more liberties than they should, but as has been said, BL editing approves it all, so...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> and loved Galaxy in Flames. I hear no one bitching about that.


I wasn't a great fan.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I wasn't a great fan.


...nether was I. But one can't crit the holy opening trilogy...

btw, wtf is with the _u hate Counter u r a stoopid hater_ crap sneaking into this thead? People who dislike something you like must be bandwagon jumpers with no ability to critically explain why they think something is bad? Pleeeeease. Deal with the fact that a bunch of people disagree with you already. 
Though if you want giant posts explaining why, in someone's opinion, Counter's work varies from 'terrible' to 'mediocre', I'm sure you'd only have to ask.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

So no one has read Sacrifice though? Seriously gotta check that out. It is the best of all of the short stories, and Counter does a great job in taking a SM beatem up and turning it into a really memorable scene. 

Like the part where he is talking about making holy bullets. Oh man, I was like fuck! for one bolter round! You gotta kill a honest stand up dude, and you go into detail? fuck dude.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Only BC could make a character get 8 spider legs and think he's blessed by the Emperor. And Astartes that take their slave crew with them in boarding missions? lulz


Never read the Ultramarines stories by McNeil have you? Lord of the Unfleshed gets convinced he is a loved by the Emperor right before he is shot in the back of the head and killed.



Malus Darkblade said:


> @Wus: so it has nothing to do with the fluff errors, and the actual writing, it's just people hopping on a bandwagon? k


It is kind of hard to have real fluff errors in a book, when new fluff would supercide the old fluff. Unless Counter was saying stuff like "The Emperors name is Horus and he cras rainbow ponies on his golden throne" fluff errors don't hold much weight.



Mob said:


> btw, wtf is with the _u hate Counter u r a stoopid hater_ crap sneaking into this thead? People who dislike something you like must be bandwagon jumpers with no ability to critically explain why they think something is bad? Pleeeeease. Deal with the fact that a bunch of people disagree with you already.
> Though if you want giant posts explaining why, in someone's opinion, Counter's work varies from 'terrible' to 'mediocre', I'm sure you'd only have to ask.


The problem is people use Battle for the Abyss as their reasoning behind counter being a bad writer, yet the main complaint about it is it didn't add anything to the Heresy series as a whole. The general argument that is presented is the book sucked in the scope of the heresy series as opposed to the writers ability. No one complains that they hated Galaxy in Flames, the GK series, or Soul Drinkers (cept Malus) they just keep trashing one book that he has written, which is just weak evidence of being a bad writer.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mob said:


> ...nether was I. But one can't crit the holy opening trilogy...
> 
> btw, wtf is with the _u hate Counter u r a stoopid hater_ crap sneaking into this thead? People who dislike something you like must be bandwagon jumpers with no ability to critically explain why they think something is bad? Pleeeeease. Deal with the fact that a bunch of people disagree with you already.
> Though if you want giant posts explaining why, in someone's opinion, Counter's work varies from 'terrible' to 'mediocre', I'm sure you'd only have to ask.


:goodpost:



Wusword77 said:


> The problem is people use Battle for the Abyss as their reasoning behind counter being a bad writer, yet the main complaint about it is it didn't add anything to the Heresy series as a whole. The general argument that is presented is the book sucked in the scope of the heresy series as opposed to the writers ability. No one complains that they hated Galaxy in Flames, the GK series, or Soul Drinkers (cept Malus) they just keep trashing one book that he has written, which is just weak evidence of being a bad writer.


I don't think anyone has explicity done that at all. I think the main reason _Battle for the Abyss_ is often cited in this regard is because its the most glaringly obvious example of a poor BL novel.

And the fact that it didn't add much to the Heresy series was far from my main complaint with it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Never read the Ultramarines stories by McNeil have you?


Never assume.



Wusword77 said:


> Lord of the Unfleshed gets convinced he is a loved by the Emperor right before he is shot in the back of the head and killed.


No comparison between a mutant abomination with an IQ matching that of a dog and an Astartes. 



Wusword77 said:


> It is kind of hard to have real fluff errors in a book, when new fluff would supercide the old fluff. Unless Counter was saying stuff like "The Emperors name is Horus and he cras rainbow ponies on his golden throne" fluff errors don't hold much weight.


He did something similar. 



Wusword77 said:


> The problem is people use Battle for the Abyss as their reasoning behind counter being a bad writer, yet the main complaint about it is it didn't add anything to the Heresy series as a whole. The general argument that is presented is the book sucked in the scope of the heresy series as opposed to the writers ability. No one complains that they hated Galaxy in Flames, the GK series, or Soul Drinkers (cept Malus) they just keep trashing one book that he has written, which is just weak evidence of being a bad writer.


I never questioned his writing skills. Just his disregard for established fluff and his depiction of notable characters in a very one dimensional manner. 

And one quick google search will yield a lot of results in regards to Ben Counter's popularity amongst WH40k fans. 

I'm sorry you cherish his works so much to the point that anyone who doesn't feel the same way must be wrong. :training:


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Now, in my defence I haven't read _The Grey Knights Omnibus_ or _The Soul Drinkers Series_, bar _Phalnax_ in Hammer and Bolter. _Phalnax_ seems good, but it's not the best out there.

Also, you want reasons why I dislike _Battle for the Abyss_? There are several. Firstly, One Dimensional Charachters. The Word Bearers are meant to be the architechs of the Horus Heresy, yet in _Battle for the Abyss_ they are portrayed as clumsy idiots who get taken out by very few adeptus astartes. 

Added to the fact it didn't add anything to the heresy other than a big ship gets destroyed, as already mentioned. And, as mentioned before - the conclusion was terribly written. 

I rest my case. I may have to pick up _The Soul Drinkers Series_ and _The Grey Knights Omnibus_ to see if his work improves, but I don't want to drop a tenner on something that I probably won't read all of it, when I could be getting the _Gotrek and Felix Series_ instead, which - judging by reviews, is a lot better.

/Rant.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And one quick google search will yield a lot of results in regards to Ben Counter's popularity amongst WH40k fans.
> 
> I'm sorry you cherish his works so much to the point that anyone who doesn't feel the same way must be wrong. :training:


I don't "cherish" his works as much as I like addressing the main topic of the discussion, which is why is counter hated? In my opinion most people that hate Ben Counters works are basing off of reading or hearing about Battle for the Abyss alone. This would be the same as me saying I hate Dan Abnett because I hated Prospero Burns, but we all know Abnett writes great stuff.

As far as going by what the internet says, I take it with a grain of salt. Most people that are going to go online and write something about anything are there simply to complain. Plus you have the small issue of the internet being anonymous, so you don't know how many different people are saying something. If you go to other forums you don't have to use the same user name at each so you could write the same thing several times and it looks like several different people have written it. Finally, I would take sales figures over reading crap online any day of the week, and because Counter is still employed by BL enough people are buying his books to make it worth while to keep him.

Personally I think Counter is meh as a writer. I'll read his BL books because I enjoy the setting not becuase he's the writer. I agree with many of the things that have been said about BftA by CotE and yourself, there has just been much worse stuff that I have read then BftA.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> In my opinion most people that hate Ben Counters works are basing off of reading or hearing about Battle for the Abyss alone.


Well I know I for one havn't done that.


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## HereticHammer01 (Apr 29, 2011)

Wusword77 said:


> Ben Counter is hated for a similar reason Matt Ward is hated. This is the internet and people like jumping on a hate bandwagon. They'll pick out one or two things in the fluff they don't like and make him out to be the WORST author ever because of it.
> 
> Every series of books that is written by multi authors should hope and pray that the worst book in the series is something like Battle for the Abyss. The book wasn't bad, it just didn't have the makings of a Fulgrim or Legion or TFH.


This. Couldn't put it better...

Ben Counter isn't an awful author. Sometimes his imagery is fantastic. I read all the Grey Knights books and I enjoyed them though the last book did go downhill a little. Battle For the abyss was a bit meh but picked up at the end I thought so I'd rate it as average.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

HereticHammer01 said:


> This. Couldn't put it better...
> 
> Ben Counter isn't an awful author. Sometimes his imagery is fantastic. I read all the Grey Knights books and I enjoyed them though the last book did go downhill a little. Battle For the abyss was a bit meh but picked up at the end I thought so I'd rate it as average.


BS. I like Ben Counter and hate Matt Ward. Prove me jumping on the Hate Wagon.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> I take it you haven't read _Battle for the Abyss_ yet. One of the worst *ever* Black Library books that I've read. I haven't read anything by CS Goto yet, but still...


Eeeehhh...trust me, Goto is _far_ worse than anything Mr. Counter has committed to paper; I didn't write the *Gotomatic* for nothing. The Blood Ravens omnibus makes 'Battle For The Abyss' look like 'Crime And Punishment'. And the biggest problem 'Battle...' has is not that it egregiously sucks _per se_, just that it seemed an unnecessary addition to the Horus Heresy cycle and didn't really take the story anywhere.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I really thoroughly enjoyed the Blood Ravens trilogy, I really enjoyed the Soul Drinkers Omnibus and I enjoyed the GK trilogy. In fact I really enjoy most 40k novels. I dont really care about anything other than if I read a book I enjoy it.

Most of the canon fluff arguements dont hold too much credibility mainly because canon wasnt canon when they were written.

As for the HH the first 4-6 were absolutely crap, but the series has matured brilliantly over time and I am not bitter - I am still glad I read them.

The fall of Horus and to a lesser extent Fulgrim were dealt with poorly but more than made up for with the fall of Magnus and Lorgar, their falling from grace had much more drama and bite to them, which as the HH is about the fallen primarchs and no other subject, should be done with total commitment their fall should be passionate and dramatic and done with a hint of tragic pathos.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> _I really thoroughly enjoyed the Blood Ravens trilogy..._


 Honestly, I found it to be so atrociously written that I got to page 55 then literally threw it in the recycling bin. 



> _I don't really care about anything other than if I read a book I enjoy it._


 On the other hand, that's absolutely fair enough too; it's like the difference between 'musically good' and 'good music'. 'Good music' can be anything you like, no matter the objective level of musicianship or technical standard of writing. Is Allan Holdsworth musically better than Green Day? Yes, in every imaginable way; but a lot of people would prefer to go see Green Day since they prefer the music. 



> _As for the HH the first 4-6 were absolutely crap, but the series has matured brilliantly over time and I am not bitter - I am still glad I read them.
> 
> The fall of Horus and to a lesser extent Fulgrim were dealt with poorly but more than made up for with the fall of Magnus and Lorgar, their falling from grace had much more drama and bite to them, which as the HH is about the fallen primarchs and no other subject, should be done with total commitment their fall should be passionate and dramatic and done with a hint of tragic pathos._


 I'd disagree with you about the first 4-6 HH novels, although I did find 'False Gods' very disappointing in the way Horus was portrayed after how he'd been set up 'Horus Rising'; he wasn't quite twirling his moustache and throwing puppies into the piranha tank, but there was almost none of the nobility he had in the first book. 'Galaxy In Flames' was better, IMHO; after 'False Gods' I was worried we'd see Horus effectively cut Mace Windu in half and go "Chaos, LOL!", but there was a much greater sense of the large canvas to events and the fact of his manipulation by Erebus was far better established.

Fulgrim's fall seemed a tad overheated and over-written to me, but I wonder if that's quite deliberate given that it's Slaanesh's hysteria-tinged excesses that draw him in; perhaps the purple edge to much of the prose in that book is for that very reason. But I definitely agree with you about the more recent books in the series, in fact I think that with the last 3 HH novels they've hit the ball out of the park every time; 'A Thousand Sons', 'Prospero Burns' and 'The First Heretic' have all been absolutely fucking excellent. 

I would love to see Perturabo given a bit of face time somewhere; to me he's always been one of the more fascinating Primarchs simply because there's so little information about him. It'd be great to have an HH novel that opens up the Iron Warriors in much the same way that 'A Thousand Sons' did for that bunch of power-armoured Harry Potter wannabes :grin:


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> Honestly, I found it to be so atrociously written that I got to page 55 then literally threw it in the recycling bin.
> 
> I would love to see Perturabo given a bit of face time somewhere; to me he's always been one of the more fascinating Primarchs simply because there's so little information about him. It'd be great to have an HH novel that opens up the Iron Warriors in much the same way that 'A Thousand Sons' did for that bunch of power-armoured Harry Potter wannabes :grin:


I heartily agree about Perturabo, in fact as the HH series is supposed to be primarily about the Fall of the traitor Primarchs - they all should get at least one good book about them, with the loyalist Primarchs being covered as needed. Obviously poor old Ferrus Manus is really screwed, he is dead before the HH series gets warmed up. The Iron Hands are always going to be on the back burner and what ever credability they had is semi lost in history, which is sad because they may have been a really cool Legion.

I dont see the HH series as about the Major Primarchs as opposed to the Minor Primarchs (as in the minor primarchs getting very little book time) - but as the Loyalist versus the Traitor Primarchs.

There is so much more yet to be revealed, the true intentions of the Alpha Legion, the World Eaters and Angron havnt been mentioned much, the Death Guard, Iron Warriors and of course the Night Lords.

The whole Night Haunter story deserves a book all by itself, from his meeting with the Emperor to his joining the traitors.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Wow. This thread is still going? Can someone kill that stupid bunny that's powering this thread?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Wow. This thread is still going? Can someone kill that stupid bunny that's powering this thread?











will that do
:laugh:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The big issue when it comes to the 40K fandom 'hating' various people/things, is that they are confusing subjectively bad with objectively bad. I saw a thread over on Warseer talking about how Draigo was poor storytelling. I certainly saw no probs with it and I don't see how it is an objectively poor story; it seems to be the classic example of 'I think it's bad, therefore it's definitively bad', rather than 'I don't particularly like this, it just doesn't float my boat although I know others will enjoy it- fair play'. It's a strange idea that if something, or someone, doesn't agree with their vision of 40K, then it/they are wrong on all levels and should be reviled by all.
The way I see it is that a terrible literalism has afflicted the way people look at the fluff. This attitude sees people only going by the words on the page, not allowing their imagination to think around the action/attitudes/atmosphere and how it would link to all we already know. Fluff should never be a straightjacket for our imagination, only ever a springboard.

GFP


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Just a point, I know everyone talks about the characters being one sided in _Battle for the abyss_ but they are Space marines, although they are men, they have been heavily modified mentally. Is it really that wrong to expect a genetically created superhuman to be a little bit one sided?


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Only BC could make a character get 8 spider legs and think he's blessed by the Emperor. And Astartes that take their slave crew with them in boarding missions? lulz


 
I was reading through this expecting that somebody would have put this earlier! although I did like the sould drinkers books, I _HATED _Sarpedos silly leg situation. I also didnt like the way that Terminator dude, (Caeon? I forget...) was brought down by that Von Skorvold child/woman thing. But then again, I did think Tellos was cool.

And on another note, I bought the GK omnibus on the reccomendation of a friend, and managed to read it upto half way through the 3rd book... wow, that was a load of crap. :suicide:

I do think that certain writers do get a hard time on here, but lets face it, they get told to portray characters in a certain light, and in the end, somebody must like them for them to get published right?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Sometimes you might feel like saying to people,

"you DO know its fantasy; Dont You!!!"

Any way from what ive read, there seems to be certain types of person interested in a thread like this.

There are the "This guy SUX so much" types.

There are the "Hmm, I read that book, it seemed ok to me." types

And the "I read on page 452 that the large chain bolter gun carried 500 rounds, but according the "know it all" special edition rule book it should be listed as 600 rounds and for that I cannot possibley take this author seriously any more." types.

I am sure its ok to some times make stuff up, in a fictional genre.
Well you'd think so wouldn't you


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