# "Angel Exterminatus"-Extract!



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Graham McNeill has reported that he is finished with his lastest Emperor's Children/Iron Warriors novel called _Angel Exterminatus_.



> _Warriors emerged from the hellstorm of explosions and scything fragments, searching for handholds beside him. They followed his example, knowing that where Kroeger led, the blood of the enemy was sure to flow. Fire and noise burst around him as he climbed higher and grenade dumpers ejected their payloads in tumbling cascades, but the enemy was running low on explosive ordnance and there were too few to do any real harm. Shrapnel whickered through the ranks of the Iron Warriors, but encased within layers of ceramite warplate, only a handful were blooded.
> 
> Vannuk climbed next to him, his burnished armour pitted with small arms impacts, and his helmet scored with heat burns. He had his bolter in one hand and loosed a short burst of fire. A scream, and a body torn up by mass-reactives fell from the wall.
> 
> ...


It seems Kroeger might have a bigger role than I thought and his Khornate ways seems to have developed here already.

Linky: http://www.graham-mcneill.com/gmblog/PermaLink,guid,dd5570bf-0375-440b-beb1-df1abacbdab9.aspx


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

> _The forward elements of the capering host were drawing near, and coils of hallucinogenic fogs writhed between the legs of the riotous assembly. It moved with a life of its own, eager to explore its creators' bodies and taste their sweat, their breath and their dirt. The screams that reached to the skies were delirious and joyous, agonised and ecstatic, a braying wall of sound that echoed from the sides of the valley like the raving of a million madman.
> 
> Scarifier priests spun and leapt throughout the dancing horde, their hooked chains and envenomed blades whipping and stabbing with gleeful abandon to cause pain and excruciation. Where their poisoned tips pierced an artery, the grateful victim would be seized by mad choreomaniacal fits. Roaring observers aped their lethal convulsions and the dancing mania spread ever wider, becoming more and more elaborate until the original victim's madly-pumping heart emptied their body and a new dance began elsewhere.
> 
> ...


And GM was kind to release another about the Emperor's Children as well, but still it feels more Iron Warrior based novel if you ask me. Forrex makes an appearence as well and Perturabo seems chocked by the chaotic transformance. That was a bit funny actually.

They seem to have become the kinky Noise Marines they are destined to be.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Some good shit. Can't wait for it to come out.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Really interesting, Imperial Fists being the punching bags of the Iron Warriors again though.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

This sounds amazing! Can't wait for this one.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

Any idea when this will be out?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Not bad at all...and it's about time Perturabo gets the limelight


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Do the fists really need to be made to look inept by not having helmets on? Kind of contradicts their solid approach to battle.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Do the fists really need to be made to look inept by not having helmets on? Kind of contradicts their solid approach to battle.


True...but at least the Fists give as good as they get until Perturabo shows up

Far too often the Fists are used as punching bags for CSM


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## Lupe (Jan 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Do the fists really need to be made to look inept by not having helmets on? Kind of contradicts their solid approach to battle.


Doesn't make them idiots, really. There would be advantages to fighting bare-headed. 

For example, if they were expecting close combat, they might have reasoned that better peripheral vision and not having auto-senses shift their perspective at the wrong time is a good trade-off. It would have added benefits when factoring in the humans, by boosting their morale and providing them with clear visual identification of who's who.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lupe said:


> Doesn't make them idiots, really. There would be advantages to fighting bare-headed.
> 
> For example, if they were expecting close combat, they might have reasoned that better peripheral vision and not having auto-senses shift their perspective at the wrong time is a good trade-off. It would have added benefits when factoring in the humans, by boosting their morale and providing them with clear visual identification of who's who.


Sounds a bit stretched...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well I think it's Demeter who takes his helmet off during the battle against the Laer and it was obviously stupid despite his reasoning that the helmet wouldn't stop any damage done by them, however he couldn't co ordinate over long distances with other units, which during a siege defence would be quite crucial and Imperial Fists are meant to be the best of the best, so being unable to co ordinate because they decided to take their helmets off, does make them look like idiots and pretty inept.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well I think it's Demeter who takes his helmet off during the battle against the Laer and it was obviously stupid despite his reasoning that the helmet wouldn't stop any damage done by them, however he couldn't co ordinate over long distances with other units, which during a siege defence would be quite crucial and Imperial Fists are meant to be the best of the best, so being unable to co ordinate because they decided to take their helmets off, does make them look like idiots and pretty inept.


Yes...but perhaps there's a good reason in the book

Let's give it chance. Other than that, it reads well


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah I guess, I just get the feeling there won't be a reason though, there never is when it comes to beating up on Fists.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah I guess, I just get the feeling there won't be a reason though, there never is when it comes to beating up on Fists.


the reason is that the fists dont have that many fans, that's why the wolves rarely get tooled whereas fists are a common choice of loyalist punching bag


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Is there a book where Lysander is the central figure? I figure if they had a good series similar to the Blood Angel, Space Wolves and Ultramarines, they may get more fans. Sons of Dorn wasn't particularly good, I hope it's not killed any future possibility of a IF series.


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## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

I know one of the short stories of the Architect of Fate features and stars Lysander. It was a fun read and he was sufficiently bad ass. The Souldrinker series got me interested in Lysander and he features prominently in The Phalanx.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> the reason is that the fists dont have that many fans, that's why the wolves rarely get tooled whereas fists are a common choice of loyalist punching bag


Is it that? That assumes a massive level of unprofessionalism and a lack of integrity, over a sweeping generalisation applying to a dozen or more authors. That's the least likely answer, surely? It relies too much on vague assumptions and guesses, unrealistically applied to too many people.

I think it's more likely something else, like a lot of the other loyalist Legions are tied up elsewhere at this point in the Heresy, and "Fists getting killed" has become a meme. I know for a fact when it comes to emails concerning "Look, who can these guys fight at this point?" most of the loyalist Legions are off the board for reasons of X, Y or Z, depending where the novel is taking place. I mean, two of them are dead for a start. They're already down to 7 from 9. The Ultramarines are very much locked into Ultramar, crippled there right now and staying there for years afterwards. They're nowhere near Terra or even the other half of the galaxy. The Blood Angels are similarly blinded, distant, and only just entering the fray. The Salamanders are dead. The Iron Hands are scattered and fighting everyone. The Raven Guard is dead, with its survivors mostly at Terra. The Imperial Fists are spread out everywhere, running recon and slowing the enemy. The White Scars haven't been touched much yet, and the Wolves are in bad shape after Prospero, but are still on the table. So you've got, what? 4 Legions to choose from? With the Fists being the most likely? 

In a realistic light, see, no one has to invent excuses or call other people names. All it takes is a moment's consideration.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Is it that? That assumes a massive level of unprofessionalism and a lack of integrity, over a sweeping generalisation applying to a dozen or more authors. That's the least likely answer, surely? It relies too much on vague assumptions and guesses, unrealistically applied to too many people.
> 
> I think it's more likely something else, like a lot of the other loyalist Legions are tied up elsewhere at this point in the Heresy, and "Fists getting killed" has become a meme. I know for a fact when it comes to emails concerning "Look, who can these guys fight at this point?" most of the loyalist Legions are off the board for reasons of X, Y or Z, depending where the novel is taking place. I mean, two of them are dead for a start. They're already down to 7 from 9. The Ultramarines are very much locked into Ultramar, crippled there right now and staying there for years afterwards. They're nowhere near Terra or even the other half of the galaxy. The Blood Angels are similarly blinded, distant, and only just entering the fray. The Salamanders are dead. The Iron Hands are scattered and fighting everyone. The Raven Guard is dead, with its survivors mostly at Terra. The Imperial Fists are spread out everywhere, running recon and slowing the enemy. The White Scars haven't been touched much yet, and the Wolves are in bad shape after Prospero, but are still on the table. So you've got, what? 4 Legions to choose from? With the Fists being the most likely?
> 
> In a realistic light, see, no one has to invent excuses or call other people names. All it takes is a moment's consideration.


The Raven Guard aren't completely dead. Plus they're not mainly concentrated on Terra. They went there after Isstvan, but after they got what they went there for, they went back to Deliverance to rebuild the legion. They got several hundred more astartes that were superior to the others in the legion. Later on in the book, they attacked one of Fulgrims garrisoned worlds. I believe the main city they attacked was called the Perfect Fortress. They won, and now they are planning future strikes against their traitorus brethren. Unlike the salamanders (who may have scattered remnant out and about fighting like the Iron Hands do) who have been barely touched upon, the Raven Guard are still in the fight. Just with drastically reduced numbers. The White Scars, from what I gathered reading one of the shorts in Age of Darkness, are out there fighting the traitor legions the best way they know how, though as you have said, they haven't been touched much as of yet. The rest is as you have already said.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> The Raven Guard aren't completely dead. Plus they're not mainly concentrated on Terra. They went there after Isstvan, but after they got what they went there for, they went back to Deliverance to rebuild the legion. They got several hundred more astartes that were superior to the others in the legion. Later on in the book, they attacked one of Fulgrims garrisoned worlds. I believe the main city they attacked was called the Perfect Fortress. They won, and now they are planning future strikes against their traitorus brethren. Unlike the salamanders (who may have scattered remnant out and about fighting like the Iron Hands do) who have been barely touched upon, the Raven Guard are still in the fight. Just with drastically reduced numbers. The White Scars, from what I gathered reading one of the shorts in Age of Darkness, are out there fighting the traitor legions the best way they know how, though as you have said, they haven't been touched much as of yet. The rest is as you have already said.


Naw, all of it is as I said. Bear in mind I'm coming at it from a meta-sense, as in who is a viable adversary in a novel at the present time. It's much deeper than "People use the Fists because they have few fans." 

The Raven Guard are dead as a Legion. They have a few thousand guys left. That doesn't make them all that suited to fending off the assaults of, say, two Legions working together, like in, say, Angel Exterminatus. Or, indeed, even one Legion. It's hard to use them in any pitched battle, or indeed kill many of them at all anymore, because there are so few left.

And the White Scars are exactly as I said; they've barely been touched on, so for writing purposes, if you know X is doing Y with them in Z months, that leaves them relatively off the table. Even so, I specifically said they were on the table, as one of the four usable ones.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Naw, all of it is as I said. Bear in mind I'm coming at it from a meta-sense, as in who is a viable adversary in a novel at the present time. It's much deeper than "People use the Fists because they have few fans."
> 
> The Raven Guard are dead as a Legion. They have a few thousand guys left. That doesn't make them all that suited to fending off the assaults of, say, two Legions working together, like in, say, Angel Exterminatus. Or, indeed, even one Legion. It's hard to use them in any pitched battle, or indeed kill many of them at all anymore, because there are so few left.
> 
> And the White Scars are exactly as I said; they've barely been touched on, so for writing purposes, if you know X is doing Y with them in Z months, that leaves them relatively off the table. Even so, I specifically said they were on the table, as one of the four usable ones.


Ah. I see now. Thanks for clearing that up


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Ah. I see now. Thanks for clearing that up


Freaking nightmare to piece together. I know what you mean.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I was talking in a more general sense tbh, not just in the Horus Heresy series. The times when I've read about the fists, they've usually been on the receiving end of a beating, they are never on the offensive, they are always the butt of an insidious plan or something and over 50% of the time they usually do lose.

As to their inclusion within the Heresy series, I don't mind them being on the receiving end of some beatings, since I know in the end they will do a momentous thing, but during those earlier beatings I'd like it if they weren't made to look stupid by them not wearing helmets which, to me at least, goes against the idea of them as a solid granite fighting force who defends to the last....but apparently doesn't like to communicate with each other because they don't wear helmets.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is there a book where Lysander is the central figure? I figure if they had a good series similar to the Blood Angel, Space Wolves and Ultramarines, they may get more fans. Sons of Dorn wasn't particularly good, I hope it's not killed any future possibility of a IF series.


A few months ago I read that Ben Counter has penned a Lysander novel and its on Nick Kyme's desk for editing. He did not say what it was about but he didn't say that it wasn't Malodrax, so we might be getting a novel about the event that made Lysander famous. :biggrin:


LotN


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## Liliedhe (Apr 29, 2012)

It's not that the Fists are not a viable opponent. It's just getting obnoxious - the UM movie slaughters an entire company of them in the backstory, Storm of Iron kills off another company, and off the top of my head I know at least two short stories which eliminate others. Makes you wonder why there are even any left. 

The Fists get a raw deal because their two books were terrible, so that they have no culture, no personality, at least none anybody can use without running afoul of the limits of what you can tell in a book nowadays. And while their appearances in the HH are a lot more varied they never had a book dedicated to them there either. Personally, I did not mind that it was IF defending the fortress in the extract - besides, they were winning before Pertie made his entrance. And a Primarch is a massive de-equalizer^^. 

It is annoying though that it is always IF against IW, because the one time where there is a very good reason for it to be Fists kinda blends into all the many instances where it did NOT have to be the Fists, and they were just chosen because... Well I don't know why.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd love ADB to take a grip on them, he did wonders for the night lords and if anyone can make the fists respectable it'll be him. 

I agree though, they shouldn't solely face Iron Warriors, they need a new adversary rather than the stereotypical back and forth that is IW vs IF. Maybe Eldar or Dark Eldar, where the fists are stern and granite tactically, the eldar are flowing and nimble, that might be a good contrast.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I think it's more likely something else, like a lot of the other loyalist Legions are tied up elsewhere at this point in the Heresy, and "Fists getting killed" has become a meme.


Except I'm not talking about HH specifically. Yes, in some instances the Fists have to be used because of "historical" necessity. However, they're often used as punching bags even when there's no historical necessity. Why the Fists and not the Space Wolves? 

Why doesn't a company of SW die to a man in _Ultramarines_ before the magnificent UM swoop in to the rescue?

My answer: popularity
...and I don't think it's as implausible as you're making it sound

The fan backlash if the beloved SW were to be stomped by Chaos would be far greater. 

I see a rational economic motive



Liliedhe said:


> It's not that the Fists are not a viable opponent. It's just getting obnoxious - the UM movie slaughters an entire company of them in the backstory, Storm of Iron kills off another company, and off the top of my head I know at least two short stories which eliminate others. Makes you wonder why there are even any left.





> It is annoying though that it is always IF against IW, because the one time where there is a very good reason for it to be Fists kinda blends into all the many instances where it did NOT have to be the Fists, and they were just chosen because... Well I don't know why.


Yes...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> My answer: popularity
> ...and I don't think it's as implausible as you're making it sound
> 
> The fan backlash if the beloved SW were to be stomped by Chaos would be far greater.


Why would there be a fan backlash at all? Indeed, has there been because some Imperial Fists were killed? Are people so unreasonable these days?

If having a favourite Chapter/Legion means you get pissed off if any of them get killed in a novel, then I despair...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's not so much the stomping, it's the continual stomping multiple times.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Extract from Crimson Fist on facebook today:

"Quote of the Day:

'Ten thousand Imperial Fists gone. I could not grasp that loss.'"


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## Liliedhe (Apr 29, 2012)

Well, to be fair, this is about the Battle of Phall which is the IF's Calth equivalent, so it is to be expected that they have losses... Still, it wouldnt be so bad if their losses were limited to their iconic battles as it is with other Legions.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

This is what Wordle thinks of that extract:


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

This can be found on on amazon:



> Perturabo – master of siegecraft, and executioner of Olympia. Long has he lived in the shadow of his more favoured primarch brothers, frustrated by the mundane and ignominious duties which regularly fall to his Legion. When Fulgrim offers him the chance to lead an expedition in search of an ancient and destructive xenos weapon, the Iron Warriors and the Emperor’s Children unite and venture deep into the heart of the great warp-rift known only as ‘the Eye’. Pursued by a ragged band of survivors from Isstvan V and the revenants of a dead eldar world, they must work quickly if they are to unleash the devastating power of the Angel Exterminatus!


My guesses they go into the Eye of Terror, which would explain the Eldar world, and they are hunted by Iron Hands as I think I read somewhere they would be in this book.  McNeill wrote it on Facebook I believe.

Also the sub-text has been revealed. Its "Flesh and iron!" as can be seen here. I really like this cover, with the exception of Perturabos head looks kinda blurry and Fulgrim hardly is visible at all.









*Edit*: Is it just me who thinks its funny these things appear on Amazon before BL own website?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Extract from Crimson Fist on facebook today:
> 
> "Quote of the Day:
> 
> 'Ten thousand Imperial Fists gone. I could not grasp that loss.'"


Well, that's not out of context _at all._

It's a story about the Imperial Fists in the Heresy, and the first time they lose any men. Are... are they not allowed to take casualties without you saying it's a continual stomping? Because, hey, they lose as many men as everyone else. No special treatment one way or the other.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It was mentioned a page or two ago it's not them dying it's the amount of times the Imperial Fists get used as cannon fodder, not just in the heresy but fluff as a whole. You don't see whole companies of Ultramarines or Blood Angels or Space Wolves getting destroyed as part of a small part of the story, the only time they suffer such loses is during a heroic moment like battle for macragge etc.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

so when is this out?


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Are you sure that's Perturabo on the cover? From the way the waist is articulated it looks like that warrior has no lower body, and his right arm is replaced by a rotating machine gun.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Think it's safe to say it's him, he has a wrist mounted weapon, and his belt in that bit in the middle with the circular thing on it, he's using early Terminator armour.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It was mentioned a page or two ago it's not them dying it's the amount of times the Imperial Fists get used as cannon fodder, not just in the heresy but fluff as a whole. You don't see whole companies of Ultramarines or Blood Angels or Space Wolves getting destroyed as part of a small part of the story, the only time they suffer such loses is during a heroic moment like battle for macragge etc.


And I'm still waiting for any evidence that it happens more often, as well as any evidence it's for sales, or because of other factions' popularity. 

The reason I suspect there'll be no evidence, especially for the second point, is because it's hilarious nonsensical bullshit.


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## Liliedhe (Apr 29, 2012)

While I agree with Word of Truth that the Imperial Fists seem to be the choice victims for the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect, I don't think there is any great conspiracy behind it. If I had to guess I would say it's because they are well known (so readers will recognise who these guys are), not involved in an ongoing series so there is no risk of contradiction with something else being written at the time, and - because they are fleet-based - it is easy to justify why they would be involved in any given conflict. And they are considered reasonably tough and competent, like Worf .


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Ultramarine Movie: Full Company Destroyed

Honour Among Fiends: Some how a single Land Raider broke through the front door of a reinforced position held by Imperial Fists, slew every fist with ease then duelled a captain who held the genetic legacy of someone from the heresy, despite being dealt a killing blow by him, some how the gods made the main protagonist immortal and he slew the captain, took his head and escaped. All this when surrounded by a company of fists.

Phalanx: Loads of Fists where destroyed as cannon fodder during the daemonic invasion of it, and this is the phalanx, home of the fists.

Storm of Iron: Nearly the whole of 3rd company is destroyed during a trap

Battle of Naeuysk Gorge: 85% casualties after ambush by Night Lords

Nimbosa Crusade: Heavy Casualties sustained while fighting alongside Black Templars against Tau.

Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum kills all the high lords, Imperial fists along with Sable Swords and Halo Dragons track him down and bring him to justice, only a single marine survives it.

Now, I can draw conclusions and have an opinion on why all this happens, it seems to me it's because while held with esteem, not much is written on the fists as opposed to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels who have their own codices, while they do have casualties in fights, they don't have entire companies destroyed to set up plots for others.

As a fan of the Fists, I'm of course biased and would rather read more about them being successful, but as I've stated I do see the Imperial Fists as punch bags for protagonists of stories quite often, rather than the other first founding chapters/legions.

It's the same with Craftworlds and Avatars of Khaine, they are regularly used to add spice to other stories, but there comes a point where they get destroyed, lose or beaten to the brink of annihilation, that they no longer appear to be competent and worthy adversaries.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_@Words_: Can we please take into account that we are talking about Astartes? Super-human soldiers who are in a near-constant state of warfare, and who would inevitably suffer casualties on every campaign. What exactly is unrealistic about the extent of casualties the Fists suffer? Some chapters get wiped out in their entirety, or close enough: do you hear fans of Crimson Fists moaning about the Battle for Rynn's World?

Okay, if we take into account every BL novel, perhaps the Imperial Fists do suffer the most casualties out of every chapter (I havn't a clue if that is the case or not, I don't read much BL), what exactly is the problem? Just because they're your favourite chapter, it shouldn't suddenly become a problem if some of them are killed. I just can't get my head around this.

EDIT: In respect to your above examples, anyone could just as easily list such casualties sustained by most first founding chapters.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, most of the other first founding chapters only lose that amount of marines in dramatic events like the Battle for Macragge etc, fists tend to lose companies willy nilly. 

I don't know if you want me to, but I could copy and paste the recent events in the lexicanum article from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines and I'm fairly certain, while they took casualities, none of them lost a single company.

I don't mind the fists taking causalities, I just dislike the fact that they are used a lot of times in minor confrontations as set up pieces where they get devastated to the extent entire companies are wiped out. 

If they are taking part in major confrontations, like the Phall system then fine they should lose marines, but why then are they seen in angel exterminatus being mauled because they are incompetent and don't wear helmets. They should lose a lot of marines during the defence of the Emperor's Palace, they then get mauled during the Iron Cage, then everytime afterwards when they pop up they get mauled. I'd just like to read an Imperial Fist novel where they are the focus, where they achieve something that the likes of the blood angels, space wolves, ultramarines etc do routinely.

To me the fists kind of mimic how I see myself, they do all these things but get very little recognition, instead they get mauled all the time, it's just like the way I do a lot of things but get little return apart from being "mauled" time and time again, I guess I want the fists to have their time in the limelight, just like how I'd like it to.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Up at this point, Space Wolves got a pretty hard beating at Prospero, UM at Calth and soon at MacCragge; Raven Guard and Salamanders got whipped at Issvan, Iron Hands lost 10 000 of their veteran troops and the Blood Angels at Signus Prime.

So that leaves White Scars, which will have a beating with the Alpha Legion, and the Imperial Fists the only ones so far pretty unharmed, with the exception of the Dark Angels who are stretched thin in Thramas (only to then have half their numbers reduced. Does this satisefy your concerns now?  There are many books to be written, soon IF will be the triuphant.

Also donät forget UM got 1st company annihilated when battling the 'nids!


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

I think that there is a 30k/ 40k split on this. In 30k pretty much anything loyalist takes a whupping and the Fists have probably come off better than most thus far. But in 40k they do rather seem to be the 'red shirts' while sexier chapters like the Wolves and the BAs do better.

I wouldn't count myself as a fanboy of any chapter, so hopefully I'm being objective...


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## Lupe (Jan 3, 2011)

Have you guys considered that the IFs taking sound beatings is actually a nice touch?

I mean, they're really the kind of guys who revel in self imposed guild and hold themselves to extremely demanding standards, and will submit themselves to greater hardships than necessary as a test of character.

That's Rogal Dorn's legacy, distorted by ten thousand years of war... That's what the fists do. they go out, they find the most hopeless engagement possible, and hurl themselves at it with straight faces and strong arms, just to uphold their ideals and purge their self perceived failings. Where other people see devastating casualties, the Fists see glorious and honorable self sacrifice and lost brothers worthy of their primarch's expectations...

To me, the Fists losing large numbers of men doesn't make them the punching bags. In fact, it makes a great deal of sense that they should, considering all of the above. I know, most of the time it's probably just a case of the authors just needing a reknowned chapter to take a beating, but even if this is all unintentional, it's still a fairly nice touch to see that they always the guys who stand their ground and fight to the last.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah if they where actually going out looking for these encounters, but in Phalanx, Ultramarines Movie, Honour Among Fiends, Storm of Iron they are the defenders, they are just doing their duty defending things, they are the antagonists to the protagonists. They are an obstacle to overcome and they are always overcome with horrendous losses.

Losing so often devalues any successive defeat they have. Just like Leeds United, they kept losing game after game, people would say they *used* to be good but now they are rubbish.

I'd of loved to read a book from the point of view of the Imperial Fists during the crusade where they fought alongside the Emperor and brought worlds to compliance, except most of those books focused solely on those legions who'd of eventually fall in one way or another and I'm not so sure they'd go back that far now, although they seem to of done a bit in Fear to Tread.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> And GM was kind to release another about the Emperor's Children as well, but still it feels more Iron Warrior based novel if you ask me. Forrex makes an appearence as well and Perturabo seems chocked by the chaotic transformance. That was a bit funny actually.
> 
> They seem to have become the kinky Noise Marines they are destined to be.


As both an emperor's children lover (and player!) & an Iron Warriors fiction lover I'm stoked for this book. Was a bit disappointed with Fulgrim (too much fist pumping and blatant "sampling" from other sources *cough*dracula*cough* in that book for me....)


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

I definitely think you have to look at the Horus Heresy novels and 'era' in its entirety, differently from the rest of the fluff when you are looking at Imperial Fists' casualties. The size of the Legions are all enlarged a hundred times. Plenty of other Legions are taking a bigger pounding than the Imperial Fists who, arguably, despite being mauled later on at the Siege, are in a better position than any other Legion thus far. Raven Guard, as DeadClown said, are dead. Iron Hands are dead. Salamanders are dead. Thousand Sons are dead. 


The Imperial Fists during the Heresy were probably, arguably in the best position. My knowledge of later fluff isn't the best, but this is just my opinion.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> I definitely think you have to look at the Horus Heresy novels and 'era' in its entirety, differently from the rest of the fluff when you are looking at Imperial Fists' casualties. The size of the Legions are all enlarged a hundred times. Plenty of other Legions are taking a bigger pounding than the Imperial Fists who, arguably, despite being mauled later on at the Siege, are in a better position than any other Legion thus far. Raven Guard, as DeadClown said, are dead. Iron Hands are dead. Salamanders are dead. Thousand Sons are dead.
> 
> 
> The Imperial Fists during the Heresy were probably, arguably in the best position. My knowledge of later fluff isn't the best, but this is just my opinion.


As I said I didn't mind major parts of the history where obviously they would get mauled, just read Crimson Fist and they took a lot of causalities in that so on the whole they'd be more around the levels of Space Wolves and Dark Angels maybe (prior to the split). 

It's afterwards in other stories where they turn up as generic first founding chapter A, used to progress stories and show how dangerous the protagonists of the stories are. I don't mind them dying, ok I do a bit but accept it because certain parts of the history call for them to die, its when they pop up and get owned for no other reason than to progress someone else's story and even in this one they are shown to be incompetent as well by not wearing a helm.

An example where the inclusion of a loyal first founding being used well to progress the protagonists story is when the Blood Angels show up in the Night Lords series, that was done well, but when Fists turn up it's always the opposite.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Now, I can draw conclusions and have an opinion on why all this happens, it seems to me it's because while held with esteem, not much is written on the fists as opposed to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels who have their own codices, while they do have casualties in fights, they don't have entire companies destroyed to set up plots for others


BA and UM have taken really heavy casualties in their fluff...Wolves not really


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> BA and UM have taken really heavy casualties in their fluff...Wolves not really


Battle for Macragge has already been listed. The book where the Iron Warriors attacked them, I don't think has been listed yet. Then there is also the BA's little schism. The protagonists being these chapters, of course they would come out on top. His gripe is centered around the fact that the IF are just filler for usually Chaos (or other enemies) protagonists in the story where they never come out on top, because that would just be too unseemly for the protagonists to lose a battle every now and again. Nope, they gotta invincible. Anyway, back on topic. It seems to happen a lot, though with the sheer volume of Warhammer 40K books featuring space marines, i'm sure it is actually a minority. His true gripe seems to be the staggering, and I mean STAGGERING losses they always seem to take in those books when they do get mauled. That and the incompetence. Cant forget that


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