# Space Marine Scouts - service length



## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

Inspired by a discussion myself and Darkreever are having on an RP thread right now, I thought I'd bring this to the attention of the community at large.

The debate is the number of years a Scout would typically serve before being elevated to Battle Brother.

Darkreever made the good point that organ implants can begin at age 10, with the last being given at around age 18. The conclusion to draw from this would be that a Scout's service will last roughly a decade.

I feel that a Scout serves roughly 40 years, as this is the length of time required to gain the combat experience necessary to be a full-fledged Space Marine--not to mention the mental fortitude, spiritual strength and general expertise.

I vaguely recall reading of a Scout that served 80 years. I believe this was in Iron Snakes or Purging of Kadillus, but I'm not sure and I don't have either book with me.

Anyone know the answer to this question?


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

I believe that Space Wolf and BA scouts serve till they can control the 'natural' urge to run at the enemy like mad men. Which takes as long as it takes.... sergeants can be very experienced though up to men who have served in the 1st company before.

I'm going to have to look this up but I'm rubbish at that which is why I'm not in here often


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

maelstrom48 said:


> I feel that a Scout serves roughly 40 years, as this is the length of time required to gain the combat experience necessary to be a full-fledged Space Marine--not to mention the mental fortitude, spiritual strength and general expertise.


40 years seems like a long time to me, what are you basing that off? Remember that Space Marines grow and learn faster than a regular human being, they would pick up combat experience much faster than an average soldier. Additionally, the recruits who make it to the Scout stage are already pretty exemplary individuals, who have proven themselves to be quick learners and have combat experience. 

I'd guess that most Scouts would serve for closer to a decade than four. However you can always go back to being a Scout after being elevated to a full Marine, and I think this would be an option that would appeal to some (those with a natural inclination/ability for stealth). I'd also guess that some Chapters (thinking Raven Guard and similar) would have longer service time, as stealth is a major focus of the Chapter, while others (like the Crimson/Imperial Fists) would be more focused on getting the Scout ready to advance.

And of course the Veteran Sergeants that lead Scout squads are likely some of the most veteran Marines in the Chapter and would likely have served in the Scouts for a very long time (40 years certainly, 80 and 100 more than likely). 

Of course, this is pretty much all guess work, I've not seen any fluff detailing any of this.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm thinking you're thinking of naaman, who was a vetern sergeant to my understanding he could have been a tac marine but he chose to remain a scout in order to train new recruits.


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I'm thinking you're thinking of naaman, who was a vetern sergeant to my understanding he could have been a tac marine but he chose to remain a scout in order to train new recruits.


All scout sergeants are veterans and if one marine has an affinity to be a scout then why not play to his strengths as they would do the same if he excelled a close combat or heavy weapons.

To the OP, scouts only usually serve in the 10th company until they acquire all their necessary implants which is a set duration, so that time is used for training. BA have a different method as all their organs are implanted within a year so training is followed. I'm not sure about the SW as their neophytes are donned with power armour, leaving the scouting to the experts so I'm inclined to agree with Hellados on that.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

Quozzo said:


> All scout sergeants are veterans and if one marine has an affinity to be a scout then why not play to his strengths as they would do the same if he excelled a close combat or heavy weapons.
> 
> To the OP, scouts only usually serve in the 10th company until they acquire all their necessary implants which is a set duration, so that time is used for training. BA have a different method as all their organs are implanted within a year so training is followed. I'm not sure about the SW as their neophytes are donned with power armour, leaving the scouting to the experts so I'm inclined to agree with Hellados on that.


My main issue with this is that implants begin at age 10 and continue for roughly a decade. I have trouble envisioning marines sending teenagers into battle. I know the final implant is the Black Carapace that enables them to wear power armor. So I guess my question is, how long does a Neophyte serve before that happens?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

maelstrom48 said:


> I have trouble envisioning marines sending teenagers into battle.


You have trouble envisioning them sending teenagers into battle but no problems envisioning them sending 9-10 year olds to battle to the death as aspirants? If it helps, don`t look at them as teenagers, look at them as Neophytes, Marines-in-training. Space Marines are not human, neither are the neophytes (they`re simply closer).


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> You have trouble envisioning them sending teenagers into battle but no problems envisioning them sending 9-10 year olds to battle to the death as aspirants? If it helps, don`t look at them as teenagers, look at them as Neophytes, Marines-in-training. Space Marines are not human, neither are the neophytes (they`re simply closer).


Good point. For me it's more a question of emotional maturity, or failing that, combat experience. It seems to me like you'd need plenty of both before being put into power armor.

It's looking more and more like I'll have to get my family to send me both those books so I can get a handle on this. 

Naaman definitely wasn't the scout I was thinking of; he was around 250 years old, if I remember correctly. I distinctly remember the narration reading that he'd served with some of his team members for decades. The scene I'm referring to is shortly before his scouts get killed by that Ork battlewagon, if anyone happens to have Purging of Kadillus on hand.


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

maelstrom48 said:


> My main issue with this is that implants begin at age 10 and continue for roughly a decade. I have trouble envisioning marines sending teenagers into battle. I know the final implant is the Black Carapace that enables them to wear power armor. So I guess my question is, how long does a Neophyte serve before that happens?


But neophytes are teenagers. The problem seems to be that the lines between aspirant and neophyte, and neophyte to reserve company marine, are pretty vague. I don't think there is any material stating exactly how the process works in detail. I.E. We know what order codex neophytes have their implants, but we don't know exactly when the aspirant becomes a neophyte after passing his trials.

Many people have made a good few valid points even in the starting page of this thread. Remember though that some of the first implants a neophyte receives accelerate muscular growth and elongate bones at a rapid rate. I'd imagine by the time a scout is fourteen/fifteen he'd look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his mid twenties. By the time the creation of the space marine is begun, the subject is no longer human. They'd be teenagers in age, but tall herculean warriors by size. Hope that helps.



maelstrom48 said:


> Good point. For me it's more a question of emotional maturity, or failing that, combat experience. It seems to me like you'd need plenty of both before being put into power armor.


Also, don't forget the hypnotherapy. Plus, they get at least eight years combat experience, that's longer than a vet that fought through world war II. Not to mention all the experience they already have from (most likely) having grown up on and survived a Death World. These wouldn't be regular children, they'd be more in line with Spartan military youths.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

From Index Astartes I:



> _"If_ [the tests to determine if a candidate is suitable] _ prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implanatation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may acelerate the process."_


And...



> _"Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into Space Marines. Until their physical transformation and training is complete they fight as Scouts."_


The big thing to remember is that the training that neophytes, initiates, scouts, etc., receive isn't conventional. There's a lot of hypnotic suggestion, implanted memories, and similar concepts involved in their training. We're not talking about teenagers simply reading books and practicing things.

My guess would be that initiates start serving as scouts sometime around Phase 11 of Geneseed implantation - after 4-6 yeas (per the chart in the Index Astartes article)of the most grueling and advanced training available. By that point, they have also been gifted with enhanced musculature and skeletal structures, redundant hearts and lungs, and an increased healing factor; they possess excellent balance, hearing, and eyesight; they can go without rest and can eat pretty much anything. They aren't full Space Marines, but they are able to deploy as warriors without obvious shortfalls and weaknesses in non-void conditions.

Cheers,
P.


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> From Index Astartes I:
> 
> _"If [the tests to determine if a candidate is suitable] prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implanatation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may acelerate the process."_
> 
> ...


The point I was trying to stab at. :grin: Can I get page references for those quotes? I'd like them for referring to.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

Thanks Phoebus, that's the source material I've been looking for. I stand corrected!


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

Blackwire said:


> With the *completion of organ implanatation* and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate.
> 
> Scouts are youths who have been recruited and *partially transformed* into Space Marines.


So initiate comes after scout? Yet another contradiction :blush:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> From Index Astartes I:
> 
> 
> And...
> ...


I literally just found that page and went to post it before seeing you'd beaten me to it ^^


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

Quozzo said:


> So initiate comes after scout? Yet another contradiction :blush:


Your quoting my quote as my own post confused me greatly. For shame sir. Anyway, after checking to affirm my superstitions that 'implanatation' was a typo and not an actual word, I'm wondering how this is contradiction? Isn't the order Aspirant > Neophyte > Initiate, or is there some fundamental understanding of Black Templars lore I'm missing here?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The pages in question are:
1. Page 7, Index Astartes I, "Rites of Initiation", for my first citation.
2. Page 15, Index Astartes I, "Codex Astartes", for my second citation.
3. Page 8, "Rites of Initiation", for the chart showing the age ranges for the various phases of Geneseed implantation.

RE: contradictions.

Nothing new here. There have always been little issues like this in the fluff. If it makes anyone feel better, pretend like the training mentioned is purely ideological. For instance, receiving the final indoctrination into the Chapter's rituals, mysteries, etc.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Whoah! Super Ninja'd!

I was just about that post the same things From Index Astartes I. I've only just had time to check through them now 

I had an image from it and everything 

Alice


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus ninja.


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

Blackwire said:


> Your quoting my quote as my own post confused me greatly. For shame sir.


I couldn't be bothered going back a page and looking for it, but it's just dawned on me that quotes have a little link to the quoted post. 

Anyway is contradicts itself as 
"With the completion of organ implanatation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother." 
So the organs must be fully implanted before training a recruit, however: 
"Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into Space Marines." But we know scouts also receive training.

@Phoebus
I know the fluff contradicts itself in many places, usually due to several decades of writing by different authors who have different views on the universe, but a contradiction in the same book is just sloppy. Still, some people say 40k is based on Christianity so contradictions were inevitable. :shok:


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

The only book I have seen that follows a marine from start to finish is the Space Wolf books.

When they are in the scout company they are not as senior as other scouts and looked down upon by everyone. 

Perhaps we are reading this wrong, I think that they maybe initiates even while they are serving as scouts as they are still learning and recovering from the psycho-indoctrination and conditioning. For example when whatshisname meets the Chaos Marines for the first time and he knows who they are without ever being told. Making it seem (to me) like although the info is there its not readily accessible so they need more training, so they're initiates, till they're not, but they can still be scouts if they wish....

WOW I'm not sure that makes sense... perhaps... they are initiates in the scout company till they 'graduate'. so it's not a contradiction it's just a different name for the same thing.

You guys do remember that each chapter recruits differently right? Look at how differently China recruits compared to the UK........ LMFAO 


PS The same SW is called Sir (or another term of endearment for an elderly person)by a senior IG officer by mistake and he notes that the SW is probably half the age of the officer 

I really do need to buy the SW books rather then borrow them :biggrin:


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

Quozzo said:


> I couldn't be bothered going back a page and looking for it, but it's just dawned on me that quotes have a little link to the quoted post.
> 
> Anyway is contradicts itself as
> "With the completion of organ implanatation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother."
> ...


I still can't help but take this as, "With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives [final] training before joining the ranks as a full brother." But at least you've now pointed out the obvious that slipped my grasp. Funny how a game based off Christianity causes differences in interpretation.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Sons of Dorn follows Imperial Fists scouts who serves as scouts before recieving the final organ which makes it so they can blend with power armour. I'm not sure about the timeline, but they do serve in their first mission and those wo survived would recieve it.  If you look at the Ultramarines movie, it appears those Scouts had hardly any training at all before becoming fully fledged Battle-Brothers.


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

forkmaster said:


> Sons of Dorn follows Imperial Fists scouts who serves as scouts before recieving the final organ which makes it so they can blend with power armour. I'm not sure about the timeline, but they do serve in their first mission and those wo survived would recieve it.  If you look at the Ultramarines movie, it appears those Scouts had hardly any training at all before becoming fully fledged Battle-Brothers.


I wouldn't follow _Ultramarines_ as being accurate whatsoever. Neophytes being initiated and not put in a reserve company!? So many inconsistencies to what we know about 40k crammed into that movie. 

On the other hand, I have a copy of _Sons of Dorn_, I should really read that through. Also, good choice in avatars. Ave Dominus Nox.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Blackwire said:


> I wouldn't follow _Ultramarines_ as being accurate whatsoever. Neophytes being initiated and not put in a reserve company!? So many inconsistencies to what we know about 40k crammed into that movie.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a copy of _Sons of Dorn_, I should really read that through. Also, good choice in avatars. Ave Dominus Nox.


Yeah I think my choice for that movie was to show the inconsistencies which often happens in the 40k universe.  But yeah I think _Sons of Dorn_ was decent, but the sidestory with those three wanting to kill each other a bit lame.

Thank you very, very much! I love it as well.  Hail the Lord of the Night!


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

With the exception of Wolf Scouts, who're recruited from the ranks of normal marines (usually Grey Hunters).

Pretty sure that the new recruits would be as normal scouts until they're fit for power armour, then they get it and carry on training as Blood Claws. The hairy space men don't have scout companies.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

The Neophytes are all grown men which means teenagers at least. They don't mature anymore in terms of humanity
after their implants. Only their genes-seed mature and grow,
I believe each scout serve and is trained for 200 to 300 years
before his gene-seed and experience has fully transformed him into space marine.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

I think its obvious you misunderstand things, but I could be wrong.

The scouts are partially transformed
not because they get an phase in a time.
"partially transformed" means age after receiving the last phase.

They get all the implants first, then they slowly grow
into space marines over hundreds of years.
Under that time they can still prove defective or turn into freaks
and must be put out of their misery.

Otherwise there would be billions of Space Marines out there.

About Ultramarines.

I understud the movie as such as;

the Ultramarines in that movie had been send to the barrack
to be trained again for being Space Marines,
after being trained for the basics as scouts.


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