# New Dark Eldar experiences?



## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Ok, so i got myself the Dark Eldar codex, and after closer inspection i am really finding it hard to see the codex as being competitive.

There are a few cool new things, and the general power of the units has increased, but the points cost have increased significantly.
The days of the 10 Warriors with 2 Dark Lances for 100 points seems long gone.

Comparing some of the units to other units in different armies, they seem significantly overcosted for what they are.
For example, Haemonculi are 2.5x the cost of a Nob, and nowhere near as good.

Incubi look like one of the best units in the codex, but not being able to hold objectives along with their extreme fragility is a massive downfall, and i cant see them being worth the 22 points considering they have no reliable transport vehicles.


But looking over the codex as a whole, i cant really see anything that stands out as _OMGEPICWIN SPAMSPAMSPAM_.

I can see this codex going the way of the Tyranids.
Lots of "WOW" for the first couple of months, but when people learn how to counter them they are simply a mid-tier codex (below average for 5th ed codices).

For the people that have actually PLAYED with or against the new codex, what do you personally believe their strong units are?
And please give reasoning why.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

KingOfCheese said:


> But looking over the codex as a whole, i cant really see anything that stands out as _OMGEPICWIN SPAMSPAMSPAM_.


so your saying to be competetive you need single units that are OMGEPICWIN SPAMSPAMSPAM?, maybe thats why you can't see anything competetive, because you want to concentrate on one unit in an army, instead of the whole thing working together.

just like what happened with the tyranids really, everyones starting to label them as uncompetetive, because they can't point out a single spam unit, yet I see players who use the entire codex properly win all the time, instead of just deploying one unit and expecting to win by default.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

For one your thoughts on Incubi seem pretty far off 3+ armour with the possibilty of FNP is not that fragile, also they are 3 pts cheaper than the last codex with the same transport options that can be made more maneouverable and resiliant froma few upgrades though they do cost a bit much. 

The strong units for me seem to be still the major players they had before

Archons, Incubi, Elite Wyches, Raiders filled with Warriors, Ravagers and Jetbikes.

New units or older upgraded units that show alot of promise would be the Voidraven Bomber and Beastmaster and Beasts.

Wracks seem to be the small cheap hold objective unit now for DE

True born in Venoms with Blasters also show alot of tank killing ability, though I'm still not sold on them due to small numbers and low armour save both for the warriors and venom.

Once again I agree with Stella.

I think in some ways GW rule book writers have finally started to wake up and go hey maybe we should make all units great but not "uber" so that people won't just spam just one unit but will use multiple units, makes sense from a marketing perspective and to me a gaming perspective to actually challenge hobbyists not just make them dull, smelly, fat and obnoxious to the real world.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

@stella

Well, i cant really see anything that stands out as being "effective".

Tyranids however do still have effective units (Hive guard, Zoanthropes, Tervigons).

Armies like Imperial Guard have Veterans, LR's, Manticores, etc.
Blood Angels have extremely effective Razor-Spam.
Space Wolves have Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

I am simply wondering what Dark Eldar have going for them.
Not necessarily 1 or 2 units, but more so as an army as a whole.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

You see as always DE have thier most effective units based in the HQ,no matter the circumsatnce I have alwyas found that a DE Archon is always the target of mass enemy focus as they are that deadly on field, the can survive well in comabt if there is a resielint oppoent due to a great armour save, then those who would ignore it they will strike before with one too many attacks for them to have a chance to strike back and do damage.

Other than the Archon other effective units I see are Ravagers, Voidraven Bombers, Incubi, Beastmasters, these stand out to me as they fill the rioles they are meant to very very very well.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

KingOfCheese said:


> Tyranids however do still have effective units (Hive guard, Zoanthropes, Tervigons).
> 
> Armies like Imperial Guard have Veterans, LR's, Manticores, etc.
> Blood Angels have extremely effective Razor-Spam.
> Space Wolves have Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.





KingOfCheese said:


> Not necessarily 1 or 2 units, but more so as an army as a whole.


thats how your making it sound though, even in your examples above your only pointing out 1 or 2 units in a codex, thats still not an army as a whole as the above examples are very easy to beat using a whole codex, and not just a small selection of units from it.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> thats how your making it sound though, even in your examples above your only pointing out 1 or 2 units in a codex, thats still not an army as a whole as the above examples are very easy to beat using a whole codex, and not just a small selection of units from it.


Question is simple.
What units are effective, what units aren't.
I dont care if you list 1 unit or 10.
If you have some constructive input to the thread, then id like to hear it.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

The problem here is Cheese is you've already stated you "can't really see anything that stands out as being effective" in the DE codex but still you want people to tell you what they think is effective.
By first glance someone could assume you don't really care as you have made your statement and therefore making this entire thing mute as we might tell you unit a,b, and c are great but you won't see it as you see them as ineffective already.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Blue Liger said:


> The problem here is Cheese is you've already stated you "can't really see anything that stands out as being effective" in the DE codex but still you want people to tell you what they think is effective.


Correct.

I have yet to play with/against them, and was interested to know what people have had success with.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

To be honest this is the first codex for years where i cant see a unit i wouldnt field, pretty much everything and combination's of everything i would want in my army.


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## projectda (May 12, 2008)

im going to guess you play space marines. as SM and CSM dont have much to fear DE as the other races do, and your attitude to them. if you want to the closest to a über unit. that would be vect. in the only game that i was forced into combat. he alone stopped half a board of SM in their tracks, with out a single wound on him. that and a 13 all around raider with 3 lances, and his rules.
like what others say, its what you add to the list and how you play them. without perfection in both areas, they will have a hard time. but if they do. DE will be a powerful opponent. so its impossible to answer your question to your liking, since there is no real OMG SPAMSPAM in the army, and what is effective depends on how good the player is, as well as what they are using.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

You don't need a "OMGEPICWIN SPAMSPAMSPAM" unit to be competitive. The Dark Eldar are quite competitive, as are the Tyranids. They are just more challenging to play than, Space Wolves, for example. I have played several games with them already and found them to be a difficult but rewarding army to play. One of the most effective things I have found is Kabal Warriors/Trueborn in a Raider w/ Splinter Racks, Wyches in Raiders and the Razorwing Figher & VoidRaven Bomber. The most beautiful and deadly of all the DE, Lelith Hesperax, is also an excellent choice, provided you use her right, for cutting through squads and certain special characters (Mephiston can prove awkward).


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

I'll give my two cents.

First off, I've played two games, and in the first I got a draw against Space Wolves. Part of the reason I didn't win is due to unfamiliarity with the army's new special rules (in other words, I completely forgot about Power From Pain). The second game was against Space Marines, also a draw (he'd built his army specifically to fight mine). I at least remembered to use most of the special rules this time.

The Archon is, if anything, even more horrible than before (as in, really tough to kill, and can more easily kill other things, given the proper war-gear.). I outfitted mine with the Blast Pistol, Huskblade, Soul Trap, Shadow Field and Ghostplate Armour, as well as a Webway Portal and Haywire Grenades. I run him in a squad of 20 Warriors with Blaster and two Splinter Cannons.

Drazhar is a terror as well; I run him with 10 Incubi, give the Klaivex a Bloodstone. He massacred the Wolf Lord on ThunderWolf with Belt of Russ. The incubi did in for the Storm Shield cavalry with all of those PW attacks...

I've found most units are good in their niches, rather like Craftworld Eldar; one thing though, Wyches have a WS of 4, which should be a 5.

I'm a fan of the Night Shield, not sold on the Flicker Field; I've made three 5+ saves out of some 12. The Aethersails, combined with the Shock Prow, make for excellent ramming damage. The other upgrades are a matter of personal choice; I consider them to be pretty useful.

Talos are as wonderful for this edition as they were in 3rd; my advice is to pay for the extra close combat weapon, that way you're at d6+1 attacks. I like the idea of Chain Flails, but my dice-rolls are generally below average, so I prefer the sure thing.

Reavers remain a staple, and Hellions got reworked to be very useful additions if you've the points to spare on a very interesting unit. To be honest, it's another unit that should have a WS of 5.

edit: Court of the Archon looks neat. If I had the proper models, I'd likely field it. As it is, I don't even know where I'd begin converting most of the stuff; I'll probably use the femme Vampire Count as my Lhamean.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I think with DE, that GW's has woken up to a 'Lets build armies so that people can take whatever the hell they want' point of building.

DE seem to me like an army that you can pretty much take any unit in the codex, then depending on how you use them is how efective they are. Nothing is a terrible 'OMG, I'll never use that!' unit, neither is anything a 'OMG, I must use my full allotment of these!' type of unit.

And frankly thats good business sense. If a units crap, your never going to sell its models, meaning you loose money, but if every unit has that aspect of 'I can see how this would be usefull if I use it like this', then your much more likly to sell more of them as everyone will want to try them out, or have them in their collection. The same as, if a unit is uber, your only going to sell that meaning the rest of the range suffers, and again you loose money.

DE are very much a Glass Hammer army, nasty, but fragile. Its how you use the units that counts more then what units you use. 

GW pay attention and start writing more of your codexes like this. 

Nids are the same, its how you use the units,not what you use that makes them effective or not.


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

So far I have seen one 1000 pt army run and it did devistatingly well. The only problem with them as stated is they are a glass hammer, S3 T3 is a very hurtful thing just ask the Tau on that one.

Looking over the codex I don't see anything that can just be tossed out, just about everything can be considered in the right style of army. Give it another month or two and you will start to see the builds that will take over most DE army builds.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Only thing I wouldn't field are Scourges. Overpriced, die easy, and perform jobs equally well done by other units. Oh, and Harlequins.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Voidraven bombers will fuck everything bar the monolith with ease armour wise.

Pretty much everything in this codex is cheap like the budgy.

Oh, and the 'hardest' character slot has just been claimed by vect.

5 WS8 attacks that always wound on a 3+, with 4 wounds and a 2+ inv. Granted no EW, but at I8, he'll hit pretty much everything first, and with a high WS, probably land his blows.
And, he is pretty cheap for his abilities.

Go stare at Vects entry for a while, it might come to you


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

KingOfCheese said:


> Question is simple.
> What units are effective, what units aren't.
> I dont care if you list 1 unit or 10.
> If you have some constructive input to the thread, then id like to hear it.


if you can't take critisism on your wording of your question and things you say in posts why would I bother adding my opinions, they'd probably just be ignored anyway.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Only thing I wouldn't field are Scourges. Overpriced, die easy, and perform jobs equally well done by other units. Oh, and Harlequins.


Strange... I'm quite fond of Harlequins, and consider them to be quite useful.
Must be a personal preference thing.
As for Scourges... probably. I wouldn't know, since mine are the 3rd edition type with two Dark Lances and two Splinter Cannons, Sybarite with Splinter Pistol and Agoniser. I use WYSIYG, so haven't tried the new variety.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Hang on, I just reread Cheese's posts.

You seem to be... upset(?) that this codex is what I call "Balanced". The whole point of a game system is to make every army as equal as possible. If this is a codex that is "Mid tier" as you call it, then surely isn't it a resounding success, made even more impressive by the fact that you can play more or less any combination of units in the book and do just as well?

I mean, what's the point in having a game system where one side is far more powerful than the other side? It's not fun to play. Skill being equal, luck being equal, shouldn't every army be able to potentially defeat every other army? Would you enjoy a game of chess if white had half its pieces missing?

Can you clarify what you mean? Because frankly if every army had a similar dex to the Dark Eldar, the tournament scene might be just a little more interesting.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> To be honest this is the first codex for years where i cant see a unit i wouldnt field, pretty much everything and combination's of everything i would want in my army.


I agree :goodpost:

Thats why I may start a good sized DE army that could consistantly grow overtime just because I could use anything from the army.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It's a middle tier dex. I believe that they did a good job with it but it certainly isn't the beat dex out there.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

I havent played with anyone yet with it, but the dark eldar players at my hobby shop say they are loving the new elemnts, they got it a week before release date so they got to have some fun with it before everyone else at my hobby shop. (we only have 2 dark eldar players tho)


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

People saying it's a middle tier dex - I want proof.

Have there been any major tournaments where multiple competitive builds of DE have played in yet - No, so how can we judge this?

By first looks it may seem like a middle tier dex but against the "top" codexies in the current game, DE seem to be thier achilles heel so to speak.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Just to chime in here, I think currently, the Dark Eldar are very interesting, I think all the units have their merrits, some wont be seen often because some units do the job better / cheaper. Scourge for example. or some units are just underwhelming for their position in the codex, Harlequins. 

As far as I have seen so far with the Dark Eldar, is that they are VERY much a Glass cannon race. they can do incredible damage incredibly quickly, turning the tide of the battles in their favor in a matter of a single early round. But they are incredibly Fragile, with low saves, T3, and low AV. this means setup of terrain and deployment can be extremely important. 

I think this is a high mid to med top Codex, like Eldar, it is NOT for beginners, but in the hands of a skilled, experienced player, this codex can easily best most of the "tier 1" idiot proof codex's.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

My general experiences playing against dark eldar have gone 2 ways.

scenario 1-Dark eldar go first, blow everything up with gobs of lances, tie infantry up with lots of wyches, and brag about their army is really hard to play.

scenario 2-Dark eldar go second, all their tanks explode because they are made of paper, infantry all die because going into battle wearing sexy leather is smart, cue bitching about how hard the book is to play.

The new book seemed to make lances more expensive, give them some cool new units that do the same thing dark eldar did before, and give them poison. This army is on the same power level as nids. Its power builds can take apart average armies from other books. But I think a kitted out guard/wolf/blood angels list could mop them up. 

Why are the eldar going extinct? GW doesnt know how to write good xenos books! Can somebody explain to me why a dark lance on trueborn should cost 2.5 times as much as a missile launcher for a long fang, or 5/3 times as much as the same guys lascannon?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

might have something to do with it being 'lance' weaponry, though i do agree they are too expensive on warriors. means warriors wont be useing them NEARLY as much as before.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dude, the Dark Eldar can rock and roll!

Seriously, I think Codex: Dark Eldar matches up excellently with the other 5th edition Codecies - it doesn't stand out as particularly super-powerful but isn't obviously weaker either. It's _balanced_, which is awesome.

The main strength of the Dark Eldar (other than the obvious things like their speed, good stats, relatively low points cost for troops and so on) is the ability to have a lot of duality in most of their units. Dark Eldar Warriors for example have access to a huge range of weaponry - tank busting dark lances and blasters, infantry shredding splinter cannons and shredders and more besides. Properly equipped, a unit of Warriors can function a little bit like a Space Marine Tactical Squad - no matter what situation they find themselves in they have at least one tool to do the job, often times more. Give them a Raider and you have a unit that can do just about anything.

Dark Eldar don't have to use jack-of-all-trades units, though. It's quite possible to use units that are dedicated to a specific role. One example are Trueborn, who can easily be given a bunch of blasters, loaded up in a Venom and told to go hunt expensive armored targets. Incubi are another great example. No matter how large the unit is or what equipment they're given, Incubi are designed to tear through heavily armored infantry and are great at it.

Some other strong units in the Dark Eldar Codex are Haemonculi, Archons, Reaver Jetbikes, Hellions, Wyches, Voidraven Bombers, Ravagers, Talos... just about every unit in the book is usable in a competitive environment provided the list is crafted in such a way that the army has a use for each unit. Aside from strong units, Dark Eldar have some fancy special rules. Having _Acute Senses_ on almost everything is really quite nice for those annoying Dawn of War missions and Power from Pain is a _huge_ boon. One of the keys to effectively playing Dark Eldar will be mastering the pre-game allocation of pain tokens (using Haemonculi to insure that units they join start with a token). It'll take skill to know which units will benefit most from the early token. Expect to see a lot of people experimenting with this, as well as trying to hit upon the 'magic number' of Haemonculi to take in lists of various sizes.

Codex: Dark Eldar is a winner. Use it. Love it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> I think this is a high mid to med top Codex, like Eldar, it is NOT for beginners, but in the hands of a skilled, experienced player, this codex can easily best most of the "tier 1" idiot proof codex's.


Now, given I haven't really seen all that much of it, but still... I really don't think this is comparable to C:SW or C:IG. Although I do believe it is a great dex, I just don't see it surpassing those. They might be Tier 2, but not those two tier ones.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

The book will take time for people to learn, I really think its to early to tell. Dark Eldar are a Specialty Elite army They rely heavily on tactics and their play style is truly one of inches. By this I mean critical errors in movement can cost them just like the Eldar so some extent heavy casualties from which victory and all hope of any sort of comeback is lost.

I have played 6 games against the Dark Eldar and 6 very different lists. I played my same tournament list against all 6 and I will admit 1st turn is HUGE for the DE but not a make or break. The games with 60%/40% in my favour but there were a few factors that were not the codex's fault. Its a new codex so my opponent has not fully grasped all changes, he has not found the synergy / meshing of units quite yet, finding where to not sink points and go for numbers is still being sorted out, among many other underlying factors. 

The one thing he and I were both surprised about was how hard it was to gain pain tokens. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw but to be honest 6 games and the same result 5/6 times would suggest more then just "luck". 

I think the DE players that are going to complain the most are the ones that expect it to be another MeQ army that can screw up tactically in one turn, then turn around on the next and lay a beat down. 

Overall I think the codex is great, the images and new models thus far are more then satisfactory. There are several units that I have been looking at that have some amazing abilities and cant wait to see what GW has ready to release as far as models go for them.

Only time will tell!
Chaosftw


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Now, given I haven't really seen all that much of it, but still... I really don't think this is comparable to C:SW or C:IG. Although I do believe it is a great dex, I just don't see it surpassing those. They might be Tier 2, but not those two tier ones.


stop being an imperium fanboi Gen. properly set up, Ive already devised multiple strats to deal with meched IG and razor spam LF Space wolves.

You are missing alot of the potential strength of CE if you truly think that they could not compete with C:IG or C:SW.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It could, but I really don't think it has what it takes to be a tier 1. As far a competing with tier 1s goes, even low tier armies can beat them if properly used. Really, if you take a general all comers IG list and put it up against an all purpose DE list I believe the IG player will be working with a slight advantage. DE should actually rip razorwolves a new ass.

And yeah, I am an imperial fanboy, but that isn't why I put IG and SW as tier 1. I put them there because that is where they are at.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

im not dis-agreeing with you that wolves and IG are good, Im disagreeing with you on the fact of dark eldar not being a competitive army. they are very competitive.

they are just not noob friendly, which IG, SW, BA are.

Edit:

to add to this thought. the marine armies, SW, BA, C:SM. they all are all top list building armies. by list building army, I mean that with the right list you shouldnt lose often with them. they can easily take major screw ups and win. IG are slightly behind the Marine armies in this sense.

Dark Eldar can easily, in an all comers list for them, win just as much as SW, BA, C:SM, C:IG, etc. 

I truly think the Dark Eldar have far more potential then the Imperium lists, they would be extremely deadly if used correctly, far deadlier then anything the imperium could put on the field, given the DE put into the hands of a player who used them right.

as far as potential goes, the DE are currently, on the top. if you go purely by ease of use for tier, then yes, they are mid tier, rather then top tier.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I'd much rather have a balanced codex than a codex that a retard can master in the space of 30 minutes.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No retard can't really master any codex in less than several days and a few games. Trust me, I have gone through enough retarded lists to know that.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

*Facepalm*


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

:laugh: Well I thought it was funny.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Lmao, so did I after a couple of minutes


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

From My personally experience I tabled them by turn three Since I got the first turn and immbolised there vehicles with Dev squads. my razorbacks just blew them up and bolter fire cleaned up the rest.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

search116 said:


> From My personally experience I tabled them by turn three Since I got the first turn and immbolised there vehicles with Dev squads. my razorbacks just blew them up and bolter fire cleaned up the rest.


your opponent didnt set up properly then


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> your opponent didnt set up properly then


no matter what is said, DE fanboy arguements will always amount to pretty much this quote, oh DE lost because your opponent didnt set up properly, etc. etc.

Is there nothing to be said for when you beat your opponent that your better? Not "Your oponnent suckz Lawl"


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> your opponent didnt set up properly then


or move an inch by the sound of it.


Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> no matter what is said, DE fanboy arguements will always amount to pretty much this quote, oh DE lost because your opponent didnt set up properly, etc. etc.


replace DE with any army and DE pfanboys with any fanboys and you'd be more accurate sven.

although DE having all there transports knocked out turn 1 to enemy fire is down to piss poor deployment, just like I'm sure you would say if a marine army lost all its transports turn 1, or is it different for other armies like them and its down more to magic than being a muppet.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> no matter what is said, DE fanboy arguements will always amount to pretty much this quote, oh DE lost because your opponent didnt set up properly, etc. etc.
> 
> Is there nothing to be said for when you beat your opponent that your better? Not "Your oponnent suckz Lawl"


if they lost in a good battle. Id gladly admit the skill level difference. when you setup poorly so you lose all your transports turn 1. you did something wrong


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> if they lost in a good battle. Id gladly admit the skill level difference. when you setup poorly so you lose all your transports turn 1. you did something wrong


no no, unless your a space marine, remember its down to magic then, not because YOU did something wrong


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Space marines players lose because they fail to many armour saves.

What idiots.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> no no, unless your a space marine, remember its down to magic then, not because YOU did something wrong


damn those magic space marines!


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> to add to this thought. the marine armies, SW, BA, C:SM. they all are all top list building armies. by list building army, I mean that with the right list you shouldnt lose often with them. they can easily take major screw ups and win. IG are slightly behind the Marine armies in this sense..





Orochi said:


> I'd much rather have a balanced codex than a codex that a retard can master in the space of 30 minutes.


I think you're both wrong. If you take a good list vs a good list, then all the stuff that makes a good player comes out... Tactics, deployment, movement, target priority, etc... And that will make the game... 

If you take a good list vs a bad list, then it's gonna be "point and click" cause the guy with the good list does not have to think. 

Dark eldar should be no different. If I take a bad list vs a good DE list, then I should get owned. But head to head, where we both are bringing a good list to the board, then it's a different story. Same applies for Nids or any other codex out there. But please don't act like DE players are somehow more superior because they're not Imperial and that all imperial armies are easy, and it's just for us noobs... that's just lame.

I am happy to hear that there are no real obvious choices. Eg, for Space Wolves, if you choose to not take Long Fangs, it's cause you wanna do something different... but they are the clear choice. Hopefully, we'll see this trend continue... I wish it were the case for all armies... We need to get to a points where my 2000 points = your 2000 points regardless of composition....


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> your opponent didnt set up properly then


Or rolled crap for cover saves.
Or the DE player's opponent just rolled a bunch of box-cars.
Or both.
Hard to say with any certitude what happened, as we weren't there.
DE transports are pretty fragile, and a Lascannon glances on a 1.
From there, it's easy for the transport to be unable to do anything.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

CLT, Ive seen many a bad wolf / ba / IG / w/e player win purely from them taking x unit. good player vs good player, there should be a good chance for both to win, BUT, the dark eldar codex has alot of tatics involved to make them great, possibly the strongest codex around right now because of the tatics available to them, not because of what units they bring to the field, like can be said about any of the updated Imperial codex's. I do not imply that there are not good players playing Imperial codex' I imply that the imperial codex' are all very noob friendly and easier to master then Eldar, Dark eldar, Tyranids, etc.



Vrykolas2k said:


> Or rolled crap for cover saves.
> Or the DE player's opponent just rolled a bunch of box-cars.
> Or both.
> Hard to say with any certitude what happened, as we weren't there.
> ...


true, but without the world coming to an end with terrible rolls, which plague everyone, setting up properly is the ideal thought behind it all.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

You can set up properly and still have your vehicles squashed, particularly if you don't go first.
Sorry, but it happens.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Assassin, I think I get what you're saying... I should caveat that it's much harder to take a 4th ed codex vs a 5th ed codex - there are better options in the new books.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

One thing that I don't like about the CE (from an C:E PoV), is the inclusion of the Harlequins. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact (and it's fluffy) that the 'quins are there, its just that I don't like the fact that there were no changes at all from the ones in C:E.
It sets a precedent for when C:E is next updated. If the 'quins aren't updated, they could fall well behind in power compared to other elite slots.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Biellann said:


> One thing that I don't like about the CE (from an C:E PoV), is the inclusion of the Harlequins. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact (and it's fluffy) that the 'quins are there, its just that I don't like the fact that there were no changes at all from the ones in C:E.
> It sets a precedent for when C:E is next updated. If the 'quins aren't updated, they could fall well behind in power compared to other elite slots.


im hoping that an FAQ will tell Dark Eldar players to reference the new eldar book for updated harlequins if they get an update


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> im hoping that an FAQ will tell Dark Eldar players to reference the new eldar book for updated harlequins if they get an update


Unless the design studio changes some of its current philosophy that won't happen.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Unless the design studio changes some of its current philosophy that won't happen.


one can hope for the impossible still though. XD


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> one can hope for the impossible still though. XD


And maybe my hammerers will survive a giant falling on them. (crosses fingers)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And maybe my hammerers will survive a giant falling on them. (crosses fingers)


my thought of the harlequins getting updated in an FAQ if C:E gets updated is more plausable then that


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

Vrykolas2k said:


> You can set up properly and still have your vehicles squashed, particularly if you don't go first.
> Sorry, but it happens.


This guy knows what his talking about:goodpost:. BA vehicles are especially against DE especially if they get a first turn. Vindicator cannon after moving 12" means you got a 36 inch range on that sucker there fore nukeing them. Today I did have another match against the DE player he pulled off a draw turbo boosting in to contest one objective.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

I watched a DE v IG game last night between 2 of my group's regulars..IG trounced it in 4 turns, but it was over earlier than that really.
Hydras were devastating against his transports, and even the Chimera's ML hurt them. Flamer templates wiped DE infantry out in swathes. The DE player did spend quite a few points on his vehicles - flickerfield/darkshield? which didn't help his cause.

IG won't have (m)any problems with DE I reckon because they have too many of the right guns to beat them. DE seem to be built with fighting 'elite' MEQ armies in mind, with many of their abilities wasted on lesser lists, so they're overcosted. As with most armies the use of upgrades etc will have to be trimmed to bare minimum to be effective.

Still, it's early days and seen as there are 3 DE players in my group who are competitive by nature, I'm sure the games will get closer.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Im confused as to the argument that dark eldar are more powerful than imperial armies, just harder to use. Can somebody fill me in on what tactics dark eldar have available that other armies dont?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

its more of the synergy of how things work, like chain-snares and Reavers being able to fly over a unit to damage it. You cant turbo boost space marine bikes over a unit and get any damage off, unlike the dark eldar.

also just useing everything that have to your advantage, what should attack first, what should get the pain token, etc. its not necessarily "more" tatics, but different tatics. its useing each units strong points to your advantage.

The idea I have been trying to get across is that the DE have alot of devistating abilities in their arsenal, Reaver fly overs, possible 24" charge range, feel no pain possibilities on EVERY unit. Dark lance spam, which is still very viable in my opinion, even though they are not AS strong as, say, melta, enough shots into any tank will destroy it, effectively.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

HOBO said:


> I watched a DE v IG game last night between 2 of my group's regulars..IG trounced it in 4 turns, but it was over earlier than that really.
> Hydras were devastating against his transports, and even the Chimera's ML hurt them. Flamer templates wiped DE infantry out in swathes. The DE player did spend quite a few points on his vehicles - flickerfield/darkshield? which didn't help his cause.
> 
> IG won't have (m)any problems with DE I reckon because they have too many of the right guns to beat them. DE seem to be built with fighting 'elite' MEQ armies in mind, with many of their abilities wasted on lesser lists, so they're overcosted. As with most armies the use of upgrades etc will have to be trimmed to bare minimum to be effective.
> ...


Against the sort of army you describe, if they got to set up first, I'd deep strike every Raider and Ravager I used, since I can't count on seizing initiative.
(And please, don't insult me by sayng, "Use Vect." I have no interest in doing so, and have used him 3 times since 3rd.)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

But how many dark lances can you get in a list compared to the number of ML you can get in a wolf list? Yeah, they are good. But they can't put out the saturation fire like some of the top tier armies. The reavers are ok, but not to terribly frightening and this dex can't really deal with massive horde armies.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> its more of the synergy of how things work, like chain-snares and Reavers being able to fly over a unit to damage it. You cant turbo boost space marine bikes over a unit and get any damage off, unlike the dark eldar.
> 
> also just useing everything that have to your advantage, what should attack first, what should get the pain token, etc. its not necessarily "more" tatics, but different tatics. its useing each units strong points to your advantage.
> 
> The idea I have been trying to get across is that the DE have alot of devistating abilities in their arsenal, Reaver fly overs, possible 24" charge range, feel no pain possibilities on EVERY unit. Dark lance spam, which is still very viable in my opinion, even though they are not AS strong as, say, melta, enough shots into any tank will destroy it, effectively.


So dark eldar are the same as every other army. They have certain synergies between units, and special abilities of those units. And they need to maximize them to win.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> But how many dark lances can you get in a list compared to the number of ML you can get in a wolf list? Yeah, they are good. But they can't put out the saturation fire like some of the top tier armies. The reavers are ok, but not to terribly frightening and this dex can't really deal with massive horde armies.


so a potential 12 str 4 hits and 12 str 6 hits from a 6 man biker squad, which are all automatic hits, so no need to roll to hit, while mearly turbo boosting isnt terribly frightening? probably wont one shot a squad but will definitly weaken it to allow the squad you want FNP on to take them out.

your right, you cant saturate a list with 10 dark lances in 280 points... you can get 9 dark lances in 315 points though. which is close, taking into the fact that MLs can only glance AV 14 on a 6. 

I do agree dark lances are VERY expensive on warrior squads though.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

12 is a 1/36 chance. More than likely will be around S7. Those dark lances really scary, but like you said, you really can't get that many of them in.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> But how many dark lances can you get in a list compared to the number of ML you can get in a wolf list? Yeah, they are good. But they can't put out the saturation fire like some of the top tier armies. The reavers are ok, but not to terribly frightening and this dex can't really deal with massive horde armies.


I'll let you know after the tournament this Saturday, since there are two regular Ork and two regular Tyranid players who show here, how they deal with hordes.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I'll let you know after the tournament this Saturday, since there are two regular Ork and two regular Tyranid players who show here, how they deal with hordes.


My bet is that you won't deal well with their massive troop units, but rip their big beasts up.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> My bet is that you won't deal well with their massive troop units, but rip their big beasts up.


We'll see; I used to tear up horde armies in 3rd.
Kinda looking foreward to this Saturday.
Then again, my lists are rather hordey.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> 12 is a 1/36 chance. More than likely will be around S7. Those dark lances really scary, but like you said, you really can't get that many of them in.


dark lances in terms of purely spamming, your right, I cant field as many lances as I could missile launchers with my Long fangs. the thing is, I have a lance on each raider, 3 on each ravager, 'heat lances' on my reavers, and blasters on my warrior squads. all of which add up quickly to having ALOT of lance weaponry.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Problem is against wolf missile spam, which is fairly effective against everyone, those vehicles are glanced on a 2? That can really really ruin this armies day.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yeah, it can, but thats why when deploying you take extra care of where spammable weapons like long fangs are.

one thing Ive thought about to deal with long fangs in particular is taking shock prow and Aether sails. turbo boost the 24 + 2d6 inches, hope you move enough to shock them into being forced to move so they cant fire their weapons in their turn


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Against the sort of army you describe, if they got to set up first, I'd deep strike every Raider and Ravager I used, since I can't count on seizing initiative.
> (And please, don't insult me by sayng, "Use Vect." I have no interest in doing so, and have used him 3 times since 3rd.)


I don't do 'insults', and like I said the DE gamers will get better the more games they get in.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

HOBO said:


> I don't do 'insults', and like I said the DE gamers will get better the more games they get in.


A lot of people do pull that crap.
Just saying.
"You HAVE to take THIS (Special Character/ unit), or you won't win!!!1!!one!!1!"
It's a crap opinion, and a crap attitude.
I've seen it waaay too much. I've also seen it proven wrong more often than not.

But ya, the more people play, the better they'll get. Absosmurfley correct.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Vrykolas2k said:


> A lot of people do pull that crap.
> Just saying.
> "You HAVE to take THIS (Special Character/ unit), or you won't win!!!1!!one!!1!"
> It's a crap opinion, and a crap attitude.
> ...


I agree...I'm just happy that those 3 DE players in my group have actually started to actively play with their armies again..they put them in the cupboard about 3 years ago.

I'm also happy that there's about 3/4 DE Bandjumpers at my LGS who regularly play with our group..broadens the gaming experience.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

my GW will be filled with a bunch of DE bandjumpers for about... 3 months. just as they die down is when my army will be finished and ready to play finally XD


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Slight update, played a practice game against 'nids last night, he got a minor victory.
I'm fairly certain it's because I pulled a retard and forgot to field my Ravager at the beginning, so it had to wait as a reserve... 3 more turns of 2 Disintegrators and a Dark Lance would have screwed that army up even more than I already did.
As it was, most of his win was due to holding one objective and me contesting one.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Dark biscuits need lances against needs form turn 1. Big nids mean evil doings, so, jusyt use your better weapons against them.

All nid players lose their hearts when the larger bigs die.

Shoot the big ones, watc hthe player throw in the towel.

Nonces.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Dark biscuits need lances against needs form turn 1. Big nids mean evil doings, so, jusyt use your better weapons against them.
> 
> All nid players lose their hearts when the larger bigs die.
> 
> ...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Dark biscuits need lances against needs form turn 1. Big nids mean evil doings, so, jusyt use your better weapons against them.
> 
> All nid players lose their hearts when the larger bigs die.
> 
> ...


This isn't even vaguely anything to do with what the rest of you are talking about.

Brilliant.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Orochi, you really need to drop the LSD.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> 12 is a 1/36 chance. More than likely will be around S7. Those dark lances really scary, but like you said, you really can't get that many of them in.


Not sure what codex you're reading... I can get 20 Lances (not blasters, actual lances) in 1500pts with three troop choices, and it could have been 4 if I took two Warrior squads instead of a maxed out Hellion unit. I could get more lances if I wasn't taking Vect either.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> Ok, so i got myself the Dark Eldar codex, and after closer inspection i am really finding it hard to see the codex as being competitive.
> 
> There are a few cool new things, and the general power of the units has increased, but the points cost have increased significantly.
> The days of the 10 Warriors with 2 Dark Lances for 100 points seems long gone.
> ...


I have only played with them once and the game ended turn 2 as the other guy had to go and i was helping another guy as i knew his codex better than he did(how did that happen?). But they seem really good and fragile, but they are eldlar who often run around naked with and no suspection on there cars so ofcourse they die easy. But jsut liek Eldar you can't spam modal x buecuase you will fail. You have to strike the right balance. My 2 lsits i have are baced around speed and pain tokens and that is what DE want and need.


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## angelXD19 (Feb 11, 2010)

DE seem pretty balanced. yes some things do suck to go up against but nothing to bad. I played to DE players today at at RT. the thing that really just pissed me off was vects seize power and flickered field working in CC but oh well. other than that it was alright. I lost to the first guy and beat the second one. But seems like both of the armies were similar. it still seemed like previous edition DE just with a few toys added in. DE are just an army that you have to de-ride like before. other than that the book is neat but nothing to ridiculous.


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