# Horus Heresy was Horus a the good guy?



## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Hey Guys I got a theory on my hands so I am gonna tell you.
What if Horus was the right person to traitor the emperor?

See the Emperor said he wasn't a God yet people still worshiped him a God, yet the more he said he was no God the more people worshiped him.
So Horus managed to see through him then said stop but the emperor said no. 

So Horus set u a cause to destroy this corrupt man, he got half the primarchs on his side and tried to tame chaos but he failed and etc...

Just a thought


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

He did not try to TAME the chaos gods. The emperor tried to wipe out religion cause people might worship the chaos gods.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Without religion, gods cannot exist. It is the ignorance of man that fed the false gods, and so kept them alive. If the Emperors dream had been fulfilled, there would have been no gods, only men.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Horus did not try to tame Chaos, he was wounded by one of their weapons and then corrupted by them. When the Emperor returned to Terra and left him in charge, he could not handle it. He was quite a weak and spoilt Primarch actually.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Horus committed no crimes worse than those committed in the name of the Emperor during the Great Crusade.

Whilst not a 'good guy' and he certainly had some questionable allies; he was a means to an end sorta guy.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Someone has a point, Horus was indeed weak. Also, he was probably quite unstable mentally as no sane man would ever lower the shields of his ship when he is like five minutes from victory. Fuck, just look at the situation. He had the remaining loyalist forces boxed in, or almost, we had the White Scars out there on a crazy "Lets take the space ports" rampage, but they were there, not here, and Russ along with Lion were still quite some time away from reaching Terra, but still that fool Horus goes and lowers the shields of his battlebarge and puts the "Please, teleport over here!" sign on his backdoor, and just begs for a beating.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it really, Doelago.
Horus would have thought of himself as a good guy, so would Lorgar or the Lion or Russ. 
It's why the concept of good and evil in 40K doesn't really fit. The Orks are not evil, their entire meaning for existance is to fight, its what they do.
Chaos represents many good things as well as the dodgy psychotic stuff. 
Horus saw himself as fighting back against the tyranny that the Emperor would bring to the galaxy, what he did he saw as a necessary evil.
The same could be said of the Emperor, He slaughtered entire systems if they refused to join him, some would say he was evil to do it, he would say it was necessary for the safety of mankind.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That's a very simplistic way of looking at it really, Doelago.


Thats the part of your post which made sense, after that there was just an rambling about that old "whats evil subject". :scratchhead:


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## mpomnibus (Oct 31, 2010)

lol yeah I hear you Doelago, it just matters where you stand
Norm you are a human so I am betting that anything the orks do is evil even if it is their nature to fight


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Someone has a point, Horus was indeed weak. Also, he was probably quite unstable mentally as no sane man would ever lower the shields of his ship when he is like five minutes from victory. Fuck, just look at the situation. He had the remaining loyalist forces boxed in, or almost, we had the White Scars out there on a crazy "Lets take the space ports" rampage, but they were there, not here, and Russ along with Lion were still quite some time away from reaching Terra, but still that fool Horus goes and lowers the shields of his battlebarge and puts the "Please, teleport over here!" sign on his backdoor, and just begs for a beating.


It was his last desperate gamble to achieve something out of the losing battle. He knew the Wolves and the Dark Angels were en-route and he didn't even manage to break open the Imperial Palace.

So no he wasn't insane nor was he five minutes away from victory.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

mpomnibus said:


> lol yeah I hear you Doelago, it just matters where you stand
> Norm you are a human so I am betting that anything the orks do is evil even if it is their nature to fight


Not really, no. 
I don't look at a lion and think you evil bastard, what did that water buffalo ever do to you!
People do things that others may percieve as evil, it doesn't make it so. People don't think about what they do in terms of good or evil, they do what suits them or what they believe to be beneficial. 
Good and evil doesn't come into it, 40K is no different. 

@Doelago, at least it wasn't a rant about the God Emperor of mankind and how everyone is a heretic and should be burned:grin:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> @Doelago, at least it wasn't a rant about the God Emperor of mankind and how everyone is a heretic and should be burned:grin:


No, that was not the point, I was just wondering from where the fuck the "that thing is evil" turned up. Surely I did not mention it. 

Also, yes, the God Emperor of Mankind is the ruler of all, a shining beacon in a sea of heretics, a sea of heretics that shall be burned. 










Burn you traitors, burn faster. :clapping:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Doelago said:


> No, that was not the point, I was just wondering from where the fuck the "that thing is evil" turned up. Surely I did not mention it.
> 
> Also, yes, the God Emperor of Mankind is the ruler of all, a shining beacon in a sea of heretics, a sea of heretics that shall be burned.
> 
> ...


I didn't say you did, all I said was that your explanation of why Horus dropped the shields on his ship was a little simplistic. 
Then, in another paragraph I continued with an explanation (granted, probably not the best but, hey!) of why the concepts of good and evil do not apply to 40K. Horus could no more be considered a good guy than Bernard Mathews could be seen as a shining light of animal welfare. 
Asking if Horus was a good guy is pointless question, in 40K there are no good guys.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus five minutes from victory? Not a chance. Guilliman, Tge Lion and the Wolf all mere hours away from a siege that would take days to end, Horus had lost and he knew it


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

We could argue about what is evil and what is good.

Or ... rather, we can let all the multiple factions kill each other in some mindless war and whichever race wins at the end will be declared the good one and we can move on.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> We could argue about what is evil and what is good.
> 
> Or ... rather, we can let all the multiple factions kill each other in some mindless war and whichever race wins at the end will be declared the good one and we can move on.


Bring it on traitor scum! :grin:


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Actually, Horus started out as a very ethical humanist. He was torn between the duties of a general meant to aggressively conquer worlds and an administrator suddenly dealing with things like taxation, governance; screwing up one would mess with the other, and they had clashing effects. Mess up governance and you get rebellions, meaning you have to re-conquer the same world again and again, Stalling the crusade. Go all-out stomping everyone and there's not much humankind left to unite.

He was trying to shift the Crusade in a direction more in tune with unifying the scattered human race rather than just steamrolling systems into conformity. 

(mild Horus Heresy Spoilers below)


And had it not been for chaos sabotage, it might have worked, who knows. When they met the Interex, a very advanced and powerful human splinter-empire, Horus went for diplomacy. And after initial tensions, it seemed to be working; the Interex main concern was that the Empire had been corrupted by Chaos, but when they determined it was not the case, they seemed quite happy to find their long-lost kin and form an alliance. However, things didn't turn out that way, thanks to everyone's favorite chaplain. 

Later on, of course, his motivations were much less noble and only had a thin veneer of any altruism.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Without religion, gods cannot exist. It is the ignorance of man that fed the false gods, and so kept them alive. If the Emperors dream had been fulfilled, there would have been no gods, only men.


That reminds me of when you first walk into Rapture in Bioshock there is that large red banner in gold ink thgat says, "No Gods or Kings. Only Man."


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> Horus five minutes from victory? Not a chance. Guilliman, Tge Lion and the Wolf all mere hours away from a siege that would take days to end, Horus had lost and he knew it


That doesn't make any sense. 

According to WD 131 the Emperor despaired and thougth he would lose until Horus lowered the shields. 

Surely the Emperor would know or would be able to "sense" the loyalist legions if they were inbound. After all, he was able to "sense" all the primarchs when he encountered them during the great crusade. 

If I remember correctly, the inbound legions was the main reason why the rest of the Chaos forces didn't continue with the siege. Sure, Horus was lost, but so was the Emperor. To disengage all/most of the chaos forces and leave the system would be impossible to do within a couple of hours, hence the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were most likely not scheduled to arrive in a couple of hours. Likewise, the Emperor would not teleport and indirectly kill his best friend (Malcador) if all he had to do was hold out a couple of more hours...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Read any account of the Siege of Terra, you have primarily the short story by William King, which is one of the earliest pieces of HH fluff and certainly the first about the Siege, and then of course Collected Visions. Both souces state that Horus was observing the Siege going into it's final stages from the Vengeful Spirit when deamons or Erebus(story depending) inform Horus of a fresh fleet under command of the Lion and the Wolf, and more recently Guilliman aswell, was mere hours away from Terra and bearing fresh armies that would surely break the Siege. Hours knew the siege would take days to finish and realised his gamble had failed and decided to lower the shields as a challenge to the Emperor, knowing the Emperor would rise to it and try and end the Heresy there and then, while Horus was hoping to kill the Emperor and shatter the loyalists morale. Before doing this he bent all of his power and his allies to block the Emperor from sensing the loyalist fleet or contact them or be contacted, as if they knew, they would surely hold out for their reinforcements.

It's also worth noting that Horus lost the battle the moment he killed Sanguinius.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

in terms of the established hh fluff it's still my opinion that little horus aximand lowered the shields

i could of course be horribly wrong


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> in terms of the established hh fluff it's still my opinion that little horus aximand lowered the shields
> 
> i could of course be horribly wrong


I never thought of that actually. It's a very good theory, considering he had a reasonable demeanor and the only reason he became a traitor was because of his bond with their Primarch.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's a plot twist they could easily add in. But in all established fluff and canon info regarding the Siege, Horus definetly lowered the shields himself, as he knew the inbound loyalist fleet was hours away and the Siege would continue for days, therefore he lowered his shields so the Emperor could telepot onboard and he could then kill him. Though they certainly do seem to be setting up Aximand to be the unwilling traitor with the possible intent of him attempting to atone for his sins later on down the line.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

(mild spoilers)


mind you sejanus (i think) was topped in nemesis due to his dissension so mayb aximand will be too (pretty sure abaddon vowed to watch him v carefully)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Huh?

Sejanus was killed on Sixty Three Nineteen. Your thinking of: (Nemisis spoilers)


Luc Sedirae, and at no point that i remember was he considered to show any signs of dissention


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## sonn (Nov 25, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Huh?
> 
> Sejanus was killed on Sixty Three Nineteen. Your thinking of: (Nemisis spoilers)
> 
> ...


In Nemesis


Sedirae was unhappy with how slow Horus was proceeding and wanted to attack Earth right away and he also didn't trust Erebus (Pg. 23-24). Also at the end of the book it says that Sedirae had increasingly questioned his orders since Isstvan and Erebus suspected Horus may have planned his death(Pg. 506).


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

seidre.....thankenu; my copy of that book is about 600 miles away lol


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