# 6th Before FAQ: Winners and losers



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

This a not very serious look at how the new rules affect each army. Feel free to comment, add to, or ignore. I expect the saturday FAQs to change this a lot. In fact, I fervently hope it will, in some cases. 

-Chaos Daemons: Gain a bit from flying MCs, easier hitting of vehicles in CC. Not affected by new vehicle hull point rules. Benefit from the night-fighting change and the new, softer Deepstrike table. On the other hand, Hellblades and fleet Daemonettes take a bit of a hit in usefulness. 

Allies-wise, they get to bring over some oblits, chosen and other chaos marines if you want to stay fluffy, and freaking Railguns if you don’t! 

-Chaos Space Marines: Discrete gains here. They get Flyer HQs in daemon Princes, good Psyker lore choices, diminished cover saves helps their high-value firepower (oblits, chosen, Defilers, 1K sons). Berserkers take a bit with the nerf to Furious Charge and variable charge range, but benefit from no longer taking Fearless wounds. Plague marines lose durability against regular fire, gain durability against AP stuff of S7 or below. We’re yet to see if Kharn, Lucius, Abaddon and company will get AP2 close combat weaponry, though. Traitor Guard is now possible, at long last! 

-Eldar: Banshees take a double whammy of a hit, with power swords and Fleet worse than before and leaving only the Avatar and Warithlords as a CC option to deal with 2+ armor. Benefit from the new fast skimmer rules. They don’t really have a lot to gain from their alliances with DE and Tau, though. Can expect to get a farseer stolen by anyone who needs psychic defense in their non-psychic army. 

-Tau: Buffed by defensive fire. Have a good counter to the new night-fighting rules on vehicles. Can now bring in freaking Marneus Calgar with assault terminator in a Land Raider Redeemer to give enemies a lesson in CC. Arguably the best ally selection in the game. 

-Imperial Guard: Benefits from pretty much everthing. Defensive fire makes blobs dangerous. Snap Fire lets you keep firing those heavy weapons and the move, and Leman Russes get even killier, if even if vehicles get a bit more fragile. Like Tau, they now get to bring allies to add CC might to their ranged firepower mastery. One of the very best ally lineups so far, too. 

-Space Wolves: Buffed to hell and back. Long Fangs can fire on the move. Better psyker lore choice than other marines. Wolf Cavalry change sa bit, but not necessarily worse. And their wolf scouts now get to lob meltabombs at vehicles from behind! GK/SW combos can be predicted to ruin many friendships and probably cause a few stab wounds among the community. 

-Space Marines: Most of the changes help MeQ armies a lot. Shooty terminatos may see a bit of a revival now that power swords wiff against 2+ armor. Psychic hoods seem to have gotten a big range reduction, though. Vehicles get a lot more shooty with the new snap fire rules: Land Raider Redeemers with PotMS can drive 12 inches, fire a Multi-melta at full BS, two flamers, and a twin-linked Assault Cannon to truly demolish enemy lines. Assault Marines and bikes get a shot in the arm. Also, Anything with a Storm Shield gets 2 out of 3 odds of walking out alive from a zooming flyer crash! 

The humble, spat-upon Techmarine now is vital to keeping your prized big tanks alive and may see a resurgence. Allies-wise, the fact that they are competent in everything now gets boosted by how they can bring in uber-specialists from fellow imperials…or Tau. Look forward to seeing Death Company change out of SM Land Raiders or hop around in jump packs ahead of the smurfs. 

-Necrons: Small nerf to Deathmarks, big boosts to everything else. Snap gauss fire against charging Walkers will make or break many combats. Gauss fire wiping hull points in general will be a huge factor. They can negate night fighting with a bit of planning, and it will be a far more common occurrence. Can import psyker defense from other armies. Their flyers are amazing with the new rules. 

-Dark Eldar: Lose more than they gain. CC is a dodgy thing for them now, as their weak assault troops will get thinned out before arriving and fleet is a bit worse. So far, no AP2 CC weapon except for the Talos and Chronos, as well as a few rending HQs. Their already strong shooting is a bit improived by worse cover saves on enemies. Embarked troops can snap-fire inside vehicles moving at cruising speed! Jink rules for fast skimmers makes Flickrfields a bit pointless. 

Night Vision is actually a big factor now. Have been describes as “the new Tau, but with worse transports”, which may or may not be a gross exaggeration. Get to steal a Battle-Brother Farseer to Guide shooting, offer psychic defense and more. Or an Autarch to help with reserves and boost Webway Portal lists. Or a Fire Prism to finally know what it is to fire a large blast! 

-Tyranids: *cough* Next. 

…really sorry, y’all. I guess a genestealer stole senior Mr. Ward’s job at the factory or something, leading his son on a Count of Monte Cristo-like plot of calculated revenge. We are finally seeing the master stroke. 

-Orks: Bummed because of wound allocation to front and defensive fire stealing inches from their CC range. KFF worse for vehicles and dreads. Waagh not as fun. BUT, lootas can move and snapfire (possibly a lot), even terminator squads may want to think twice before charging burna boys, and Mega-armor no longer dies so easily to random power-weapons. Given their high volume of firepower and naturally abysmal BS, they lose the least when firing at BS 1. 

-Grey Knights: Draigowing is borked. And there was much rejoincing! Unclear how Fortitude will deal with hull points on glances and penetrations. May actually have trouble dealing with enemy terminators if their Nemesis weapons are AP3.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Daemons have Soul Grinders which are affected by the new Hull Point Rules (with 4).


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Good catch. Though since they have actually good AV, this may buff them a little bit. I'v sen a lot of glanced Grinders getting their weapons destroyed and made useless before being destroyed, and it usually took less than 4 shots.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Imperial Guard get quite a bit of a nerf when it comes to wound allocation, no longer are commissars safe to help keep your guardsmen from bitching off the board, and blob squads are now utterly worthless.

Orks are also hit real hard by these rules, since you need that nob to be useful.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

Sisters of Battle seemed to have stayed the same, in that they're not mentioned most of the time!:wink:



Sephyr said:


> And their wolf scouts now get to lob meltabombs at vehicles from behind!


Maybe there will be changes, but as of now, I can't imagine Melta Bombs to be throw-able, for the simple fact, that it would render Inferno Pistols quite useless!

Imagine the Inferno Pistol (in most cases three times as expensive), to be out-ranged by two Inch by a thrown Melta Bomb! (or even five Inch, if you want the extra D6 Armour Penetration)


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

why u no mention nids? am i missing something?


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> -Grey Knights: Draigowing is borked.


What makes you say this? The only thing I see hurting the Wing is FNP on 5+ instead of 4+, and even then it's now only negated by Instant Death.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

@Khorne
Yeah, they have NO allies at all... so no fun combos. I would have thought they would at least get IG since that is where genestealer cults often end up but no, they are teh Great Devourer and everyone fights to stop them.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Captain Galus said:


> What makes you say this? The only thing I see hurting the Wing is FNP on 5+ instead of 4+, and even then it's now only negated by Instant Death.


Massed firing still kills the Wing, GKs are looking at having AP3 Force Weapons (making them worse at fighting other Terminators), they lose models from the front now, so Paladin allocation nonsense is gone which means models will die sooner and faster instead of nearly an entire squad each taking a wound before one model dies. Oh and it's harder for the GKs to crack open heavy tanks thanks to Glancing not giving them rolls on the tables.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Did I miss something? Why are Deathmarks hurt by the new rules?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I have a feeling GK will kill tanks just as fast as before with the Hull Point system.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> I have a feeling GK will kill tanks just as fast as before with the Hull Point system.


With Autocannon Dreads? Not THAT fast against anything that's AV14 (can only glance) and needing 6s to Pen AV13. They'll still be relatively effective against AV12 and down, but I see a rise in Henchmen or Allies to help them break that heavy armor. That or they'll rely on hitting the vehicles in close combat.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Glances remove hull points, the av14 stuff has 4 hull points. 4 Glances and its a wreck.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Glances remove hull points, the av14 stuff has 4 hull points. 4 Glances and its a wreck.


With the Rifle Dread: 
3+ to hit, 6+ to glance AV14 which turns into:
Shots: 2 
Hit Chance: 88.89% 
Hits: 1.778 
Glancing Chance: 16.67% 
Glancing Hits: 0.296

And with three Rifle Dreads shooting at AV14:
Shots: 6 
Hit Chance: 88.89% 
Hits: 5.333 
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 0.889

Yeah, that's not looking as good as a close range melta gun to do the job instead. Three twin-linked Rifle Dreads firing at the same target can't even manage to average 1 Glancing hit. And even if you rolled amazingly well it'd take two Rifle Dreads hitting both of their shots, and then rolling double 6s to drop a Landraider in a round of shooting. Against Leman Russes it gets even worse for the Grey Knights because to get those good side shots you need to get a good position for Line of Sight, something Guard players (at least the good ones) can control very well.

Face it, Grey Knights will suffer against armies with vehicles with AV13+ armor. AV12 is middling and the Grey Knights anti-armor doesn't get good until they face AV11 and down. But killing Rhinos isn't impressive considering everyone builds their list so they can do that.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

My point is that they still would have needed about the same amount of glances to kill it before. So no real change from what they are now.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> My point is that they still would have needed about the same amount of glances to kill it before. So no real change from what they are now.


Potentially they need less because you no longer deal with shaken or stunned results. But either way the Autocannon is not a reliable way to handle AV13+. I'd even argue that it's a subpar way to handle AV12.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Imwookie2 said:


> Did I miss something? Why are Deathmarks hurt by the new rules?


It's a minor thing, as it seems sniper rifles are no longer Rending. They still get to allocate wounds on 6s, though, making them a solid unit.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Flickerfields are going to still be good on Dark Eldar fliers. The 5+ Jink save makes you have to snap-fire the next turn. Dark Eldar will be able to get the same save(not negated by a Hydra tank) and fire weapons normally. The Farseer is a nice thing with allies though. Runes of Warding sounds great.

Tyranids actually benefit from the new rules for flying MCs. Two Flyrants and 3 Harpys could be nasty and you can still have 3 Tervigons as Troops.

Another benefit is to Necron flyers. Snap fire means little to the Doom Scythe as it does not use BS for the Death Ray. And the Tesla Destructors on both like rolling 6s anyway.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Tesla in general is going to be laughing at the snap fire rules: all 6s count triple anyway, so although they drop from BS4 to BS1 they only lose 50% of their hits...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Zion said:


> With the Rifle Dread:
> 3+ to hit, 6+ to glance AV14 which turns into:
> Shots: 2
> Hit Chance: 88.89%
> ...


Riflemen Dreads fire 4 shots not 2.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

1 Psyfleman dread
Shots:	4 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	2.667 
Glancing Chance:	16.67%	
Glancing Hits:	0.444

3 Psyfleman dreads

Attacker Group 1 
Shots:	12 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	8 
Glancing Chance:	16.67%	
Glancing Hits:	1.33

still not that good


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> Riflemen Dreads fire 4 shots not 2.


My mistake. You still have the same amount of chance of a single Dread doing enough damage to stop a Landraider. It takes 12 shots to average 1 hit. And the platform is an AV 12 walker that only has 3 Hullpoints (thus is easier to nuke).

It's still not that good for dealing with enemy armor over AV12.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

I haven't seen it listed, but how many hull points do Ork Trukks get? Is a one-shot wreck still possible?

I'm also waiting to see the differences in Fast and Skimmer rules (if any) to see what effect that has on deffkoptas.

Otherwise, I agree with the assessment.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> I haven't seen it listed, but how many hull points do Ork Trukks get? Is a one-shot wreck still possible?
> 
> I'm also waiting to see the differences in Fast and Skimmer rules (if any) to see what effect that has on deffkoptas.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with the assessment.


Likely to be 3 (as that seems to be the default) while AV10 facing vehicles (like the Vyper and the Ork Buggie) seem to be 2 Hull Point Vehicles, and Vehicles with an AV14 facing seem to be all Hull Point 4. There are exceptions to this though (Soul Grinder has 4 Hull Points).

Deffkoptas are Jetbikes and won't care about the skimmer rules.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

khrone forever said:


> 1 Psyfleman dread
> Shots:	4
> Hit Chance:	66.67%
> Hits:	2.667
> ...


Is that worked out at str 7, or at str 8 with psybolt ammo?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

fynn said:


> Is that worked out at str 7, or at str 8 with psybolt ammo?


S7 would need a 7 to glance AV14 so that would be S8.


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## Madden (Jan 22, 2012)

IT has to be 8 as 7 wont scratch av14. Oh snipers are rumored to still have rending which (if info is right) is ap2 so death marks arnt hurt but improved by the new rules.
Winners:marines of all types
Necrons
Shooty armies
Same(good and bad):eldar of both 
Any others I've missed.
Losers: assualt heavy armies


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Yeah, making the nob more likely to die in close combat is a big nerf for Ork mobz. 4+ cover save changing to a 5+ hurts too, as does random charge distances. On the other hand, shoota boyz are still great, and lootas are better than ever. I just might have to start including a warboss to give the mobz a better chance at winning close combat.

(Of course, I can also ally some of my chaos daemons. Hmm....)


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

mynameisgrax said:


> Yeah, making the nob more likely to die in close combat is a big nerf for Ork mobz. 4+ cover save changing to a 5+ hurts too, as does random charge distances. On the other hand, shoota boyz are still great, and lootas are better than ever. I just might have to start including a warboss to give the mobz a better chance at winning close combat.
> 
> (Of course, I can also ally some of my chaos daemons. Hmm....)


Nob is more likely to die from shooting, no word on close combat yet. And Nobs/Segeants/Sister Superiors/Ect are rumored to get a 4+ "Look Out Sir!" while Independent Characters are rumored to get a 2+ vs those kinds of wounds.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Just a few musings on SoB, since it's not really been covered yet:
More powerful psykers hurts since Sisters don't get any. Fingers crossed that Shield of Faith will buff Deny the Witch in some way.
Repentia have got a lot scarier with the new Rage giving extra attacks. Ditto Penitent Engines if the movement is now controllable as it appears to be.
Exorcists got nastier with AP1. Much as I like Retributors, triple Exorcist is going to get more popular.
Dominions in either flamer or melta configuration still look like winners.
Death Cultists take it in the shorts. Repentia are now better vs Terminators!
Magical Bouncing Space Tinkerbell (Celestine) is in the same boat assuming the Ardent Blade is AP3.
Bargain Basement Canoness builds may benefit from Warlord traits.
Last but not least, they get a minor buff from the fact that a lot of more abusive stuff got a nerf. Melta/bolter Dominions sing hymns of praises to new Wound Allocation stopping them from killing more Terminators if they don't fire their bolters!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Majere613 said:


> Just a few musings on SoB, since it's not really been covered yet:
> More powerful psykers hurts since Sisters don't get any. Fingers crossed that Shield of Faith will buff Deny the Witch in some way. _Agreed. Sisters used to get a 5+ to shut down powers that were aimed at them. Maybe this will come back again?_
> Repentia have got a lot scarier with the new Rage giving extra attacks. Ditto Penitent Engines if the movement is now controllable as it appears to be. _All signs point to this being true, which means Repentia became even nastier against enemy units with 4 attacks each on the charge! The Mistress is still not very good (S8 vs LD usually means I'm wounding on 6s as there are a LOT of LD10+ models out there my Repentia end up in combat with), but 9 Repentia will get 36 attacks on the charge at WS4, S6, AP2. With the Act of Faith they still have a chance to swing if any go down, and with Feel No Pain becoming more useful that means they'll still get to use it against power weapons now. I'll still be using my Mistress to take early wounds (3+ Armor/6++ Invunerable/5+FnP? Yeah, she usually eats the first wound when they're in combat)._
> Exorcists got nastier with AP1. Much as I like Retributors, triple Exorcist is going to get more popular. _Triple Exorcist was already good since it provided the only way to reach out past 36" for the army and could do massive amounts of damage (mine have nuked so many things in a single turn of shooting it's not even funny). It got weaker versus AV13/14 though since against 13 it'll need 6s to reliably damage, and it can only remove hull points versus AV14._
> ...


I've added my thoughts in yellow italics.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here is one we weren't expecting.

Loser: Chaos space marine.
Reason being primarily that the latest buzz is that bolt pistols may not give a bonus attack when parred with CCW's. (Note the wording is a bit vague so it may be a false alarm)

-So that means for the same price as any other marine we get LD9 with no bonus rules like our loyalist friends, and only a shitty pistol to show for it.

-Also note that berzerkers took a huge and unjustified hit according to what has been released so far? Both losing a attack (Now the same number as a every other assault marine in the game), but also are Int4 on the charge. Yah not looking good for our 21pts servants of the blood god. Not to mention they stand a real chance of failing a charge or just having the enemy choice to flee causing you to stand still and lose a 210+ pt unit that hasn't gotten to do anything.

Plague marines also took a notable hit as well (5+ is a relativly crappy save for the extra 8 pts you pay for them) Sure you can take it against power weapons (Who ever let them get hit by a unit with power weapons?) and the like, but most people will be running power fists this edition so who really gives a damn. (Also melta guns will be just a pervasive as last edition so meh)

Also note that noise marines also took a minor hit as basic rapid fire guns can now move and shoot once at 24 or sit and shoot twice at 24". So why would anyone pay 25pts for better bolter that was over priced even last edition?

Now on a less rule and more model based complaint. CSM terminators don't even come with power swords. As the box comes with shock mauls and power axes meaning you have to buy 2-3 boxes to make a unit that doesn't trip over itself in weagear load out (No intelligent person would want 2-3 ap4 weapons in a unit designed to fight terminators or marines.)

Note that I am well aware that a new book is coming out soon, and that other armies took hits to (Some only got a boast but thats the fun of a edition change over), but I felt as a vet CSM player that I needed to vent on this major blows against chaos space marines (Note I don't really give a damn about CD allies as the idea of 2-3 units of morons deep striking half way through a game where they have to stand though a turn of shooting and over watch shooting sounds like a terrible tactical idea.). I am still optimistic that people are misquoting the book, but with actually pictures of the book and what not the likelihood of this is going down by the minute.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

PLague marines may be a little worse in general... but you could just ally in Epidemus in a big unit of plaguebearers and soon have shooting/combat that just ignores armour saves... that would make those same bolters look a hell of a lot better.

I think many armies will be good/bad based on what sort of unforseen things you can do with allies. I was already intending to do a new IG army for 6th... but now I'm really tempted to ally them with some traitor guard and have all the fire support I could ever want mixed in with a hellishly powerful daemon army (and you _know_ I would be taking an astropath).


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Astropath rule won't help your daemons reserve rolls as they are not brothers in arms.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Zion said:


> Originally Posted by *Majere613*
> 
> _Just a few musings on *SoB*, since it's not really been covered yet:_
> _More powerful psykers hurts since Sisters don't get any. Fingers crossed that Shield of Faith will buff Deny the Witch in some way. Agreed. Sisters used to get a 5+ to shut down powers that were aimed at them. Maybe this will come back again?_
> ...


Mine in blue.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> Mine in blue.


Before we turn this into a multi-colored rainbow post I'm just going to reply directly to what you posted:

Repentia - Yeah they'll die sooner to shooting, but on the flipside they're stronger in close combat and easier to control so I'm okay with this.
Exorcist - True, it comes out about the same in the end, though it's pen rolls got better. If it gets Skyfire we'll be set. Though it may get a fixed number of shots and the Salvo rule instead (a possible idea is that it becomes Heavy 6 with Salvo so it only fires 3 on the move if I understand the rule correctly), but that's just a thought not a sure thing.
Dominions - They do look good now, but I'm curious to see how the scout move works now. There was some kind of change mentioned in a recent post over on Faeit212 but I honestly couldn't decypher it.
Celestine - You mean that there was some other reason to have her other than bullet magnet?
Canoness - Unless things change her Act of Faith is only used in the Assault Phase. So no rerolling shooting.
Heavy Flamer - The effectiveness is all that had me using it despite it's price. Really it should have been between 10-15 points.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Look at the bright side luke.....1ksons got alot better! :victory: 

always getting2 ap3 shots at 24? cover 5+? (with our 4+), aspiring sorcs taking BRB psy powers? The loss of attack from a bolt pistol doesnt effect them anyway as they never had the bonus attack to begin with!

Quick note on the termie loadout. I always pictured the 'shock maul' as those dainty little clubs the SOB squad leaders swing around....the big things our termies have look more to me like power weapons, or in 6th count as power swords.


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## Voss (Jun 27, 2012)

Interesting winners (assuming things are true- no extra wounds to fearless units and beasts ignoring terrain):

Tyranid ripper swarms. Yeah. Rippers. They probably aren't fantastic compared to other choices, but they aren't automatically something you'd never take, either.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Someone talk to me about changes to the Eldar?

Although my Vulkan/Fire dragon list is already being made...


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

Eldar? Hmm. Perhaps your biggest gain until a new codex is allying with Dark Eldar. We'll give you extra firepower and a flyer. But I think the new Psyker powers just force you into a difficult spot. Eldar powers are already among the best in the game. So, you can keep them or roll on the tables and hope for something better. Tough choice, I think. Your MCs will probably be about the same. Though judging from a pyromancer power, being made of molten metal may finally mean something for the Avatar. I actually saw an Avatar die to Hormagaunts, which should explode into flames for touching it. So sad.


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## Gobbo (Jun 4, 2008)

Welcome to shooting and terminator infantryhammer.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Someone talk to me about changes to the Eldar?
> 
> Although my Vulkan/Fire dragon list is already being made...


Hate to break it to you... but that won't work. Vulkan can only buff Friendly units... Eldar aren't brothers in arms, witch means they can't buff each other.


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## LordStubert (Mar 21, 2011)

Eldar pathfinders get a bit of a buff, since the hits on a 6 are AP1 and you pick the model. 

As an ork kan wall player I am a bit disappointed.
Nerfed cover saves, furious charge and charge ranges are going to hurt.
Nobz will die more easily in combat, where they fulfil a vital role.
Lootas have become even more important being able to spam S7 to glance stuff.


Might have to switch to trukks, which will hopefully survive better if they do have 3 hull points. Although I heard you can't assault out of a moving vehicle?
Stormboyz have become a more worthwhile choice for the better charging + impact hits.
Mega armour is better since it saves against power swords.
Burna boyz are scary to charge with D3 hits each in overwatch.
If you don't take wounds from combat resolution then fearless gets a bit of a buff.

Overall I think the army will stay much the same but with different units fulfilling each role. Slugga boyz take a pretty big hit so defensive shoota boyz will be the focus for my troops. Stormboyz and burna boyz might make a comeback and become the CC and short range offensive units. Mega-armoured nobz with warbosses might be a bit more viable, being able to save against power weapons and the warboss trashing enemy characters in a challenge should be fun.

Worst of all, Flash Gitz special rule does nothing any more. How will I cope?


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Its wierd that I designed an ork list taking things that most people do not consider for orks, such as a squad of 15 stormboyz. Now it looks like they will be a better choice. Its like GW designed 6th edition for me and my orks 

Now all I need to do is stop rolling doubles for my shock attack gun.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

LordStubert said:


> Eldar pathfinders get a bit of a buff, since the hits on a 6 are AP1 and you pick the model.
> 
> As an ork kan wall player I am a bit disappointed.
> Nerfed cover saves, furious charge and charge ranges are going to hurt.
> ...


I'm forgetting, what does the Flash Gitz rule do?


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Zion said:


> Nob is more likely to die from shooting, no word on close combat yet. And Nobs/Segeants/Sister Superiors/Ect are rumored to get a 4+ "Look Out Sir!" while Independent Characters are rumored to get a 2+ vs those kinds of wounds.


Close combat is done in 'Initiative Steps' now. Where I10 models pile in and make their attacks, before I9, before I8, before so on and so forth... Models that die in close combat are taken from the the closest to the enemy too. So if you power fist is at the front then he will most likely die before he gets the chance to pile in and make an attack.

At least, that is my understanding of reading that paragraph and playing 6th last night...

Edit: There is a look out sir in close combat as well if i remember correctly, will re-check when I get home


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## LordStubert (Mar 21, 2011)

Flash Gitz lets you pre measure before shooting. With your 18 inch range guns. 

Since everyone can do it now they are even more pointless. They were award winningly pointless before.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

pantat said:


> Close combat is done in 'Initiative Steps' now. Where I10 models pile in and make their attacks, before I9, before I8, before so on and so forth... Models that die in close combat are taken from the the closest to the enemy too. So if you power fist is at the front then he will most likely die before he gets the chance to pile in and make an attack.
> 
> At least, that is my understanding of reading that paragraph and playing 6th last night...
> 
> Edit: There is a look out sir in close combat as well if i remember correctly, will re-check when I get home


So currently the only real change is that wounds are taken from the "front" of combat (i.e. the models actually in base to base with the enemy models) instead of allocating. This is going to make things interesting with or without the "Look Out Sir!" in close combat.



LordStubert said:


> Flash Gitz lets you pre measure before shooting. With your 18 inch range guns.
> 
> Since everyone can do it now they are even more pointless. They were award winningly pointless before.


Here's hoping that they get an improvement in the Ork FAQ then.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Zion said:


> So currently the only real change is that wounds are taken from the "front" of combat (i.e. the models actually in base to base with the enemy models) instead of allocating. This is going to make things interesting with or without the "Look Out Sir!" in close combat.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's hoping that they get an improvement in the Ork FAQ then.


Essentially yes, so keep your power fist at the back unless you want it to die first lol


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Dark Eldsr Scourges came much more useful, Jump Infantry with Snap firing lance heavy weapons. Although expensive, you can have them tank hunt at the back before jumping into an assault. Combined with a 4+/6++ they are reasonably survivable for Darj Elfar, and have a large amount of shots they can out into play for anti infantry.

10 with 4 lances and 6 shardcarbines gives you 280 points for 18 poison 4+ shots and 4 lances. Not major amounts of shooting, but considering they can hop over terrain, fire, and assault, or hop, snap fire and overwatch.

Deathmarks with rapid fire snipers.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> Essentially yes, so keep your power fist at the back unless you want it to die first lol


There is an initiative set up step for every initiative in combat. So your power claw Nob can sit at the back till its their turn to move into combat than mash some stuff.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Dark Eldsr Scourges came much more useful, Jump Infantry with Snap firing lance heavy weapons. Although expensive, you can have them tank hunt at the back before jumping into an assault. Combined with a 4+/6++ they are reasonably survivable for Darj Elfar, and have a large amount of shots they can out into play for anti infantry.
> 
> 10 with 4 lances and 6 shardcarbines gives you 280 points for 18 poison 4+ shots and 4 lances. Not major amounts of shooting, but considering they can hop over terrain, fire, and assault, or hop, snap fire and overwatch.


Funny story about those scourges. My friend unloaded about 30+ shots of shardcarbine shots in my group of 9 Necron warriors and a Cryptek, and felled all but one lone Necron Warrior. That Necron Warrior was apparently a boss though and passed his leadership test and caused the Cryptek and 2/3s of his other warriors to resurrect. Next turn, the Scourges were dropped to 2 models and fled the battle.

Still, those Scourges are nasty and shouldn't be underestimated, especially if they have a full unit and Lances.



Vaz said:


> Deathmarks with rapid fire snipers.


Deathmarks, to me, were always deadly. Now that they can DS in and fire the full 24, they just became more dangerous, because they are more likely to survive the next turn.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Zion said:


> I'm forgetting, what does the Flash Gitz rule do?


No No No, without assault ramps or another rule it doesn't matter if the vehicle moved or not you can not declare a charge in the assault phase after you disembark a vehicle.

Open-topped have the assault vehicle rule, so you can from them, but not rhinos, etc.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> No No No, without assault ramps or another rule it doesn't matter if the vehicle moved or not you can not declare a charge in the assault phase after you disembark a vehicle.


....But what does that have to do with the Flash Gitz quote?


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Suijin said:


> No No No, without assault ramps or another rule it doesn't matter if the vehicle moved or not you can not declare a charge in the assault phase after you disembark a vehicle.
> 
> Open-topped have the assault vehicle rule, so you can from them, but not rhinos, etc.


Land raiders are assault vehicles too. And stormravens


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Don't know what happened there, wrong click or forum messed up.

Most of the assaulting from disembarking was due to it being different now for rhino/chimera type vehicles, since in 5th you could assault after disembarking if it hadn't moved.


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## HadronFlux (May 31, 2012)

Zion said:


> ...so Paladin allocation nonsense is gone...


Since Paladins are all Characters now, they've replaced wound allocation nonsense with Look Out Sir nonsense.



Archon Dan said:


> The 5+ Jink save makes you have to snap-fire the next turn.


Do you have a page for this? I don't see that requirement under the Jink listing. I know flyers that Evade have to Snapfire the next turn but I don't see that for Skimmers and such.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

HadronFlux said:


> Since Paladins are all Characters now, they've replaced wound allocation nonsense with Look Out Sir nonsense.


On a 4+ to reallocate a wound from one model to another, and you can only reallocate once per wound.


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

> Eldar pathfinders get a bit of a buff, since the hits on a 6 are AP1 and you pick the model.


It's not just pathfinders, it's rangers too. An Alaitoc army with lots of Ranger squads could quite affectively strip an opposing army of any useful squad leaders, special and heavy weapons with a couple of good rounds of shooting.

With the rending ability it's possible they could take out light vehicles/tanks. With the bonus they get on the Vehicle Damage Table for being AP1 they would Explode them on a 4+.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

TH/SS Termies become the boss in CC once more - Paladin draigowing has been nerfed because they themselves don't wield AP2 weapons (and high Initiative stuff like halberds), and can't rely on an invun only whilst the TH/SS termies have their well known 3++ Save. I think we might see more TH/SS termie deathstars supporting SM Captains and stuff (considerably less singling out ICs in combat due to "look out sir!"). I think the units that particularly got a rough deal in 5th (ICs, Gunlines) have been buffed to reinvigorate codecies and playstyles.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

"Land Raider Redeemers with PotMS can drive 12 inches, fire a Multi-melta at full BS, two flamers, and a twin-linked Assault Cannon to truly demolish enemy lines."

Incorrect - You can't snap fire template weapons.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

khrone forever said:


> 1 Psyfleman dread
> Shots: 4
> Hit Chance: 66.67%
> Hits: 2.667
> ...


Still not quite right. No accouting for twin-linked, so hit chance is much higher.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

pantat said:


> Close combat is done in 'Initiative Steps' now. Where I10 models pile in and make their attacks, before I9, before I8, before so on and so forth... Models that die in close combat are taken from the the closest to the enemy too. So if you power fist is at the front then he will most likely die before he gets the chance to pile in and make an attack.
> 
> At least, that is my understanding of reading that paragraph and playing 6th last night...
> 
> Edit: There is a look out sir in close combat as well if i remember correctly, will re-check when I get home


The model still uses their initiative value for pile-in, they just strike at I1.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

HadronFlux said:


> Do you have a page for this? I don't see that requirement under the Jink listing. I know flyers that Evade have to Snapfire the next turn but I don't see that for Skimmers and such.


Don't have the book to hand for page number, but it's in the Flyer rules section, when talking about it's zoom rules.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Scotty80 said:


> The model still uses their initiative value for pile-in, they just strike at I1.


Not sure about this? Have you got a page number so I can check when I get home later?


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Shooty horde is where its at in this edition (as well as playing terminatorhammer). Bye bye MSU mech spam (which is kinda stupid IMO and a little bit fluff breaking in the case of some MSU armies - Coteaz based Minmax acolyte spam), hello real 40k armies . Hopefully 6th will pan out as a more balanced edition with the next phase of codecies, with infantry, mech, elite and air all being in a rough balance (so tactics have to win the day, not lists). However, saying that, this is GW, and the new ruleset benefits them because they normally shift it toward the most expensive models in the range (it used to be transports & tanks, now its flyers and scenery).


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

pantat said:


> Not sure about this? Have you got a page number so I can check when I get home later?


I'll have to check the pages myself when home (at work at the moment), but IIRC, the wording for pile-in says to use the models initiative value, and the unweildy rule says that the model STRIKES at initiative 1.


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

What I've noticed from actually playing Draigo Wing in 6th:

All Draigo Wing Pallies are Characters which gives them Precision Strikes / Shots so they can allocate Wounds they Deal on a To Hit roll of a 6. This means the weapons that people used to hide in their squads that could deal Instant Death do not make it to Close Combat.

They get Look Out Sir. For each wound I take I roll a D6. On a 4+ I get to pass those wounds back. Normal fire hasn't really been a problem and AP 2 shots aren't really common enough that you're taking more than a couple around. With Terminators on the rise the meta might change. 

Challenges also let me remove large threats from the close combat and make them fight one on one with one of my Sword wielding pallies. This hasn't had much use yet but I'm pretty sure I'll use it one day.

The largest benefit for me is my Draigo Wing squad is a lot cheaper. I do not have to but Warding Staves and Brotherhood Banners. Everyone can get a Halberd making my entire squad Init 6 except the obligatory Hammer guys. 

My Psyfles have basically erased any tank I've shot at. The weight of fire from them is staggering and the introduction of Hull points makes them more consistent at kill Tanks. Though I have seen one Wreck off of Box Cars on a Fortitude Test.

Vindicare is as solid as ever.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

How are the Draigo wing Paladins characters and how are they now cheaper?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Scotty80 said:


> The model still uses their initiative value for pile-in, they just strike at I1.


The way I read it is that a unit doesn't Pile In until its Int come around so if you "strike" at 1 then you pile in at 1 too. Mainly because you have to pile in before you strike if you're not in base contact and you can't pile in until your Int comes around ?


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

Page 410 under the Grey Knight section they have the (ch) in their stat line. 

Nothing went down but in order to do wound allocation I'd have to buy things I normally would not. Now I can drop the Brotherhood Banner, Warding Staff, and Falchions from my list and just take 55 point Pallies instead.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

On a slightly bright note for Nid players the lessening of vehicles means the doom of malantie is now even more of a ball ache to an opponent,


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The way I read it is that a unit doesn't Pile In until its Int come around so if you "strike" at 1 then you pile in at 1 too. Mainly because you have to pile in before you strike if you're not in base contact and you can't pile in until your Int comes around ?


This is how we interpreted it, but I will need to look at the actual wording again


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Brother Droopy said:


> Page 410 under the Grey Knight section they have the (ch) in their stat line.
> 
> Nothing went down but in order to do wound allocation I'd have to buy things I normally would not. Now I can drop the Brotherhood Banner, Warding Staff, and Falchions from my list and just take 55 point Pallies instead.


Gah? Sounds like a bit of an oversight to me... All paladins with precision shots (hello 2 psycannons!) AND precision strikes with look out sir chenanigans? Surely that would make the unit (even more) broken than they already were?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

elmir said:


> Gah? Sounds like a bit of an oversight to me... All paladins with precision shots (hello 2 psycannons!) AND precision strikes with look out sir chenanigans? Surely that would make the unit (even more) broken than they already were?


A) They only place wounds on 6s (and can only place wounds on models in a unit that are in range of their weapons).

B) Because they all have 2+ saves, they roll together and pull from the closest. Even if you reallocate wounds on a 4+ (since they're all generic characters) they're still going to die to torrented fire. And since they pull whole models first every 2 wounds (or every one from S8 weapons) removes a Paladin like normal. 

In short they gained a small bonus to damage dealing but became more fragile in terms of taking wounds.


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

The only wounds I pass off with Look Out Sir are the 1 or 2 High Str Low AP wounds that come their way in a turn. Or the Precision Shots from my opponents Characters. For normal fire you have to get past their 2+ save and their 5+ Feel No Pain. For that matter even the random Melta or Laz Cannon has to get past 5++ and 5+ a Feel No Pain. 

I'm not saying they never die. Just that their odds are better than the average guardsmen.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Zion said:


> A) They only place wounds on 6s (and can only place wounds on models in a unit that are in range of their weapons).
> 
> B) Because they all have 2+ saves, they roll together and pull from the closest. Even if you reallocate wounds on a 4+ (since they're all generic characters) they're still going to die to torrented fire. And since they pull whole models first every 2 wounds (or every one from S8 weapons) removes a Paladin like normal.
> 
> In short they gained a small bonus to damage dealing but became more fragile in terms of taking wounds.


Oh, I thought succesfull LOS saves would relocate wounds to sometimes save a model? I though that rule was an exception to that. 

BTW... I wouldn't underestimate 2 MC psycannons blasting at a unit with precision strikes... Especially with rending in that equation. Being able to single out the enemy's powerfists (especially with the new CCW AP values) is also going to be pretty hughe for palladins.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Not really- if they are characters then ever passed Look Out Sir can go to a different model and be used to spread wounds around the unit... not just to the closest few (who will inevitable still take 50% of the wounds).


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

For each incoming wound you can make a Look Out Sir test. If you pass you send the wounds to who ever you want in your squad. You can do this for every wound. So roughly 50% of your wounds you can pass around one at a time. Causing you to take less casualties and greatly slow down combat.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

elmir said:


> Oh, I thought succesfull LOS saves would relocate wounds to sometimes save a model? I though that rule was an exception to that.
> 
> BTW... I wouldn't underestimate 2 MC psycannons blasting at a unit with precision strikes... Especially with rending in that equation. Being able to single out the enemy's powerfists (especially with the new CCW AP values) is also going to be pretty hughe for palladins.


LOS will save models, but unless someone is lucky the model(s) in front are still going to end up taking half the wounds anyways. And even then, the LOS saves are probably going to be focused on keeping the special/heavy weapons alive more than the model with the Halbred that's in front of them. Any wounds the front ranks take will still remove whole models, you roll saves vs groups of wounds with the same stats (so two meltas would be rolled seperately from the twelve or so bolter wounds) which means you can have them roll the melta wounds first (losing whole models on failed 5++ saves) then have them roll the bolter wounds.

Oh, and your characters and snipers still allocate on a 6, and snipers ignore armor on a 6 (because Rending is AP2 this still matters). So if you want to start removing important models first use snipers. With them you'll be able to tag Paladins before they can shoot back, and on every 6 you can place wounds on their Psycannons or other important models. 

Yes it can still be shifted around, but Snipers are a great way to mitigate the kind of firepower Grey Knights bring.

Also the only way that Grey Knights can possibly start off the board is loading up small units into Storm Ravens (which much be reserved) and having each of them carry in a Dreadnought. This gives you time to ensure you've got the board covered, to snag objectives and to set up methods for shooting down Storm Ravens ahead of time (and if they crash while carrying someone, everyone inside takes and S10 hit, no armor saves allowed. That will serverly hurt anyone who tries to all reserve their Grey Knights this way).

Any other way, they can only reserve half their army at a time which gives you time to shoot them full of holes before their buddies start coming in and generally making them unhappy.

Grey Knights are not unbeatable. You just have to be able to evaluate what they're doing, and use a balanced list to crush their imbalanced one. This method is also how you generally win against -any- min/maxed list that tries to win through a gimmick.

EDIT:


Brother Droopy said:


> For each incoming wound you can make a Look Out Sir test. If you pass you send the wounds to who ever you want in your squad. You can do this for every wound. So roughly 50% of your wounds you can pass around one at a time. Causing you to take less casualties and greatly slow down combat.


No slower than any other nonsense the players could try. Yes you CAN pass around wounds, but that's why you make them roll against the Low AP, High Strength wounds FIRST (like melta as this means they lose whole models anyways, causing them to have less places to PUT said wounds) and after they've so kindly put wounds on all their models from before you shoot them with something else to make them do it again, only this time start pulling whole models. All they do is make it easier to kill them that way is all.

Also Paladins hate Vindicators or other High Strength, Low AP large blast templates. A good shot from one of those can murder most of a Paladin squad (causes Instant Death, is AP2 generally), so Leman Russes have a strong perk here.

EDIT (part deux): TL;DR - If you're really having a lot of trouble against Paladins you're either doing something wrong (focusing on the wrong units), not applying your wounds correctly when you can, have horrible luck (and possibly need new dice), or playing against someone who is either really lucky or maybe cheating. Anytime you're having trouble beating an enemy codex take some time to read it. You don't NEED to buy it, but they are good on hand when you're trying to remember how certain rules work. 

Every army (even Grey Knights) have weaknesses inherent to them. It's about learning to apply your army's strengths into their weaknesses without exposing too many of your own. If you can get that down then your games will get better and you won't have to worry about the cheese players who just try to spam nonsense, and will be able to have better games with the more balanced players.


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

No one ever said Grey Knights where unbeatable. The only thing we're really discussing here is how the new rules play out for one unit in the Grey Knights Codex. 

Though everything you mentioned as a counter to Paladins is something Grey Knight Paladin Squads can do them selves or something that's a "Counter" to every infantry unit. (No one likes taking a Demolisher Cannon hit)


Obviously if my friend fields Paladins and I don't kill them all without effort I should accuse him of cheating. =)


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I do play grey knights. I know they can be beaten, it has happened to me quite a few times already 

But despite me playing GK, I think this was a bit of an "uncalled for" buff to an already amazing unit. 

I do have a question regarding a unit of paladins in a stormraven however...

My Stormraven is 9" in lenght (I know, this is the internet and everybody brags about size, but I'm pretty sure this is the same for most guys out there...), so when it enters reserve in hover mode, it has to be 9" away from the table edge with it's nose. 

Can me pallies still disembark 6" and possibly assault when arriving through normal reserves (not deepstrike)? I'm asking because I was a bit confused by the wording on models arriving from reserve that are longer than 6". 

IF they were able to assault, it would mean a potential 27" threat range when arriving from reserves in this way...?


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

On page 124 it says that it moves as if it was on the board just off the edge but if the move is not sufficient to have the whole model on the board you place the model on the board with it's rear facing to the board edge. 

It must move Fully onto the board edge. As for if they can assault I couldn't say. I was under the impression nothing can assault the turn it comes in from reserves but I cannot find where I got that impression from.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I was under the impression that nothing at all can assault from reserves now.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

scscofield said:


> I was under the impression that nothing at all can assault from reserves now.


I believe it says something "unless statrd otherwise" then they cannot assault from reserve


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Brother Droopy said:


> No one ever said Grey Knights where unbeatable. _True. But in my defense I see it come up often enough (still!) that I wanted to nip it in the bud before someone tried to say it._
> 
> The only thing we're really discussing here is how the new rules play out for one unit in the Grey Knights Codex. _Also true, but I wanted to point out the methods that killed them before still work, and that there are even ways to kill them sooner (for example, they can no longer allocated the melta wounds onto models that are going to die anyways, nor put them onto models who already have a wound on them if you force them to take those saves -first-) under the new rule set. _
> 
> ...


Long paragraphs in yellow are mine. I'm not trying to instigate anything, just trying to offer solutions and possibilities that people may have overlooked or forgotten about while digesting the new rules.

Anyone else think that Warrior Alcolytes with Bolters just became kind of awesome since they run 5 points each for a 24" bolter bubble (that can be boosted by Jokaero to 30" or made into other crazy combos)? I think they may be one of the best discount options you can buy now.

EDIT:


Brother Droopy said:


> On page 124 it says that it moves as if it was on the board just off the edge but if the move is not sufficient to have the whole model on the board you place the model on the board with it's rear facing to the board edge.


That's nicer than it used to be. If you didn't get fully on the board before (or if any part of the model hung off the board for any reason (i.e. Valkyries) it was destroyed instantly in the previous edition.



Brother Droopy said:


> It must move Fully onto the board edge. As for if they can assault I couldn't say. I was under the impression nothing can assault the turn it comes in from reserves but I cannot find where I got that impression from.


While I assume this will change in the future, I've yet to see anything that assaults the turn it comes in. I'm keen to see what gets it first though.


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

@Zion: Since I've been posting in the Grey Knights List section of this forum the GK players that post there are pretty decent at admitting there are short comings to the army (and all around good people.) I've been playing Inquisition since the Daemon Hunters book came out. I don't see any reason to quit now that we have a decent set of rules (And until I get a second copy of the old Codex to Cut the fluff out of and paste over the new fluff I will not say we have a good Codex) You should come to the GK forum and hang out some time. =)


I love the buff to Warrior Acolytes. I run a 12 man squad with all bolters and 3 meltas. Though I don't think mine will still get their points back. I'm hoping an Aegis Defense line will help though. My Acolytes tend to die the moment they leave a transport (or blow up inside it).


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Brother Droopy said:


> @Zion: Since I've been posting in the Grey Knights List section of this forum the GK players that post there are pretty decent at admitting there are short comings to the army (and all around good people.) I've been playing Inquisition since the Daemon Hunters book came out. I don't see any reason to quit now that we have a decent set of rules (And until I get a second copy of the old Codex to Cut the fluff out of and paste over the new fluff I will not say we have a good Codex) You should come to the GK forum and hang out some time. =)
> 
> _Most players aren't bad, but that 1% gives everyone a bad name._
> 
> ...


With my looking for a new army to kick off 6th Edition with a Henchmen might not be a bad idea, especially with their new perks (2x Jokaero in a squad would get 2D3 Heavy Flamer auto-hits against chargers in addition to anything else your Acolytes have). Crusaders with Power Axes look pretty good too.


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

Zion said:


> With my looking for a new army to kick off 6th Edition with a Henchmen might not be a bad idea, especially with their new perks (2x Jokaero in a squad would get 2D3 Heavy Flamer auto-hits against chargers in addition to anything else your Acolytes have). Crusaders with Power Axes look pretty good too.


I hate the Jokaero models. I've been toying around with Converting some Tech Priests counts as to fill the role.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Brother Droopy said:


> I hate the Jokaero models. I've been toying around with Converting some Tech Priests counts as to fill the role.


I don't hate them, but that's a neat idea too. The old Jokaero only looked like monkeys, no tech of any kind.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

SoB are pretty meh. It's a shame, but let us hope they get an update next year.

My main issue is with Allies:

Dark Eldar and Eldar are Battle-Brothers..... Really? I'd of said Allies of Convenience at the highest....

SoB are only Battle-Brothers with IG..... Space Marines = AoC

However, my main issue is with the way that GK are used in games and such like WD.... In a recent WD they were used in a battle with IG and Space Wolves(?).... All the GK get killed but the Imperium wins the fight... I thought the GK would subsequently murder all the IG who survived and mind-wipe the SM? But if they are all dead, surely the "Secret" gets let out the bag. Also, what happens if a enemy wins? Let's say the GK get owned by Daemons or Tau or w/e..... If all the GK are dead, won't their existence be known?

The Allies section makes me giggle.... Some of the Battle-Brother and AoC matchups are funny.

I have another question: Cause Seraphim have two pistols right? It says in the rule book that they are "Gunsligners" and can fire both normally in shooting... So are they two separate weapons or still twin linked? If they are separate, awesome..... The next question is, they have base 2A in their stat line... but they carry two pistols, which count as hand weapons... So as they have two does that mean they get the +1A bonus still? Meaning they have 3A in assault? Furthermore, if they have one pistol and one sword, does the same apply or is the best melee weapon used instead?


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## Brother Droopy (Jun 14, 2011)

They get to fire both guns. =)


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Troublehalf said:


> I have another question: Cause Seraphim have two pistols right? It says in the rule book that they are "Gunsligners" and can fire both normally in shooting... So are they two separate weapons or still twin linked? If they are separate, awesome..... The next question is, they have base 2A in their stat line... but they carry two pistols, which count as hand weapons... So as they have two does that mean they get the +1A bonus still? Meaning they have 3A in assault? Furthermore, if they have one pistol and one sword, does the same apply or is the best melee weapon used instead?


They are two separate weapons. Which means when they charge they get 3A (1 attack base, 1 for the extra close combat weapon and 1 for the charge) and if they used their jump packs to assault then they also get a free S3 Hit at I10.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> The next question is, they have base 2A in their stat line... but they carry two pistols, which count as hand weapons... So as they have two does that mean they get the +1A bonus still? Meaning they have 3A in assault?


I think the reference in the back of the book includes attacks for two close combat weapons already. In the WD codex they only had 1A base. They do however hit and run based on the highest I in the unit. So Saint Celestine gives the whole unit a pretty good chance to jump away. So if you get charged, overwatch, take as many wounds as you can on St Celestine, if its AP2 or instant death, go with the LOS roll to dump it off on a bolt pistol girl. You have a pretty good chance of jumping away to hit the unit again later or go off and do something else.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

asianavatar said:


> I think the reference in the back of the book includes attacks for two close combat weapons already. In the WD codex they only had 1A base. They do however hit and run based on the highest I in the unit. So Saint Celestine gives the whole unit a pretty good chance to jump away. So if you get charged, overwatch, take as many wounds as you can on St Celestine, if its AP2 or instant death, go with the LOS roll to dump it off on a bolt pistol girl. You have a pretty good chance of jumping away to hit the unit again later or go off and do something else.


Strength 3 makes for a poor bash through, at least in my area where you're typically facing Marines needing to wound on 5s while being wounded on 3s (not to mention being smacked on 3s) does not help the unit much. Personally, I love the models and their unique jump packs, but they just don't bring much to the table outside of their (albiet mobile) close range pistol firepower. They're better a unit for dealing with mostly finished off units, or low armor units of Gaunts that they can get close to and shoot to death without too many issues.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> Strength 3 makes for a poor bash through, at least in my area where you're typically facing Marines needing to wound on 5s while being wounded on 3s (not to mention being smacked on 3s) does not help the unit much. Personally, I love the models and their unique jump packs, but they just don't bring much to the table outside of their (albiet mobile) close range pistol firepower. They're better a unit for dealing with mostly finished off units, or low armor units of Gaunts that they can get close to and shoot to death without too many issues.
> Reply With Quote


For sure, I wouldn't expect them to come in clean up in close combat. I use them the same as you, I am careful what do I charge if I do charge anything. All I am saying is with Celestine in the squad and overwatch, with how hit and run and wound allocation works, they are a little bit more survivable on the times that they do get stuck in cc. And anytime a sister unit is more survivable, that is a good thing.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

asianavatar said:


> For sure, I wouldn't expect them to come in clean up in close combat. I use them the same as you, I am careful what do I charge if I do charge anything. All I am saying is with Celestine in the squad and overwatch, with how hit and run and wound allocation works, they are a little bit more survivable on the times that they do get stuck in cc. And anytime a sister unit is more survivable, that is a good thing.


True enough. I just wanted to point out that they'd better at running away from being charged that way then smashing and dashing (minimizing losses this way since you'd only deal with one round of combat on their turn and run away).


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

WD codex and the 6th reference both have the base A at 1. The superior has A2.


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## dkoz (Nov 12, 2010)

*BA*

so do you flokes feel that the majority of BA list are still going to be Razor Spam, It seems to me that DOA list were never the tits in last edition and got hurt even more in 6th. I'd like to know some of your thoughts on how the new editon has effected my BA army and what is going to be the best version going forward?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I think your going to see a bigger mix of units honestly. Razorspam isn't as scary now with the changes to hull points and the fact you can't disembark and assault the same turn with them now. Still will see a lot of it but I think lists will mix it up more now after people get out of the 5th mindset


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