# What squicks you out the most about Warhammer 40.000?



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

What do you find most disturbing about the setting?

For me Dark Eldar mememtic molesters. slaaneshi mutations, Nurgle makes me wanna barf, and being a fanatic is a nice thing in this setting.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ultrasmurfs can win in a 1:1000000000 fight, with little or no casualties.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Ultrasmurfs can win in a 1:1000000000 fight, with little or no casualties.


You forgot they got angry and a simple naked Ultramarine beat a Primarch and his daemon-bodyguard to death with a Baneblade just because he got angry.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> You forgot they got angry and a simple naked Ultramarine beat a Primarch and his daemon-bodyguard to death with a Baneblade just because he got angry.


Haven't read that one.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

No movement forward in the story - Starting awesome storylines in codexes but not advancing them. The Golden Throne failing for example.

Too overly grimdark - I'm up for a lot of dark but not the no hope at all setting. This is why I like the "winning against all odds" stories like Gaunts Ghosts.

Chaos being all powerful and corrupting everything good like positive emotions such as hope, honour, love and refusing to give up.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Too overly grimdark - I'm up for a lot of dark but not the no hope at all setting. This is why I like the "winning against all odds" stories like Gaunts Ghosts.


Don't ever read _Deadmen Walking_, it was far to depressing for me and made it impossible for me to play 40k for a year.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Don't ever read _Deadmen Walking_, it was far to depressing for me and made it impossible for me to play 40k for a year.


Not read that one thank goodness. Firmly off my list now so thanks for the advice


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's not supposed to be anything in any direction when it comes to Empy. He is dying or so it seems along with his Imperium of Mankind. It's actually irritating that people mentions a time after as the IOM would quit functioning just as he flat-lines due to demons going rampant. Just go for any of the 40k.-rulebooks on the background of Empy. Once he dies it's game over for mankind.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Too overly grimdark - I'm up for a lot of dark but not the *no hope at all setting*. This is why I like the "winning against all odds" stories like Gaunts Ghosts.
> Chaos being all powerful and corrupting everything good like positive emotions such as hope, honour, love and refusing to give up.


I think you might be into the wrong setting 

OT: Space Wolves. I just hate those guys.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> I think you might be into the wrong setting
> 
> OT: Space Wolves. I just hate those guys.


I love the setting and I have for 20 years. I love the stories of brave fights against all odds. I like the Tau, the Necrons and of course the Imperium. I also love the Alpha Legion too for their sneakiness and using their brains.

I just wish they'd tone down the grimdark a bit that's all.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

agreed


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.

Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.

Give me a novel of heroic but ultimately fruitless sacrifices, disastrous battles, and complete defeat. 

I would assume the Imperium doesn't fare so well in books written from other perspectives (CSM, Eldar, and Tau books), but I would like a book written from the Imperial point of view, post-heresy, that the Imperium outright loses in the long-term.

As a novel.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.
> 
> Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.
> 
> ...


Fall of damnos involves a battle the imperium lost.
Dead men walking is another one.
That's what i know of off the top of my head.

Consider this for every battle the imperium wins millions die. Any necron knocked out will come back eventually. More orks will spawn any that were wounded get bigger. Hundreds will defect to chaos who gets stronger.

Sure they win the battle but at what cost?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.
> 
> Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.
> 
> ...


When you read a novel you are reading of that armies triumph/victory, for every victory the imperium suffers atleast 1 defeat. You want a novel were the Imp loses read the one I mention on page 1.

SPOILERS TO SAID BOOK


The Imperium throws men and gear at the oldcrons. They dehumanize most of the guardsmen and how does it end, the 'heros' either die and have all their gear stripped and get their blood drained while they are still breathing, become refugees, or wander around a dieing planet broken. You would like to read more novels like that?


When I read a Book I at least want to read of a minor victory and not men/ammo wasted for no reason.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> When you read a novel you are reading of that armies triumph/victory, for every victory the imperium suffers atleast 1 defeat. You want a novel were the Imp loses read the one I mention on page 1.
> 
> SPOILERS TO SAID BOOK
> 
> ...


Why don't you go and read ultra dork and grey knight fluff then.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Why don't you go and read ultra dork and grey knight fluff then.


I'm assuming you mean dark, I have I like it. Sure I have no problem about losing battles, it's reading about the battles and all the loses not even meaning anything., hell Down Amongst the Dead Men was less dark than Deadmen Walking and the 

the main character, in the Short, was nothing more than a target dummy, the brief gleam of hope was said target dummy killed a genestealer and gave the Emperors Mercy to a fellow target dummy


meanwhile in Deadmen walking



The main male character becomes a broken cannon fodder who wanders around a tomb world seeking revenge for the main female. Main female abandons said male for a noble and then becomes a refugee. The commissar gets shot and then is stripped naked and bled to death by his own men. and what do all the sacrifices result in SQUAT!


Edit: If you mean ultrasmurf then I don't see the utter hopeless wasteful losses.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I read _Fall of Damnos_. I actually don't recall too much of the novel...it was pretty bad. The impression I remember is so bad that I don't have the motivation to walk across my house to flip through it again.

I got my hands on a copy of _Deadmen Walking_. I'll probably get on it in a couple weeks or so.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> I'm assuming you mean dark, I have I like it. Sure I have no problem about losing battles, it's reading about the battles and all the loses not even meaning anything., hell Down Amongst the Dead Men was less dark than Deadmen Walking and the
> 
> the main character, in the Short, was nothing more than a target dummy, the brief gleam of hope was said target dummy killed a genestealer and gave the Emperors Mercy to a fellow target dummy
> 
> ...


I meant ultra smurf. and from the omnibus I don't see anything that would state they had a heric victory.

The imperial guard is a billion's strong fighting force. 99.99999% of the men who serve will die a pointless death holding or taking a pointless area and will be forgotten or their best accomplishment will be becoming a improvised sandbag for a weapons emplacement after they die the .00001% might become the next sly marbo or ciaphas cain. who do things that have larger repercussions. 

That's the nature of the imperium. All that talk of a few guardsmen manning outposts of freedom holding off charging hordes of orks or cultists by iron will and las rifles doesn't exist.

That is the nature of the imperium.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

No advancement in plot.
Too much emphasis on kid friendly grimdark while making the background as scary as a pop up book


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Stella Cadente said:


> No advancement in plot.
> Too much emphasis on kid friendly grimdark while making the background as scary as a pop up book


Agreed. Even the most sinister beings are toned down. The Dark Eldar should evoke pants-shitting fear with an utterance of their name. But all you hear about are the drugs and orgys. Sure if they catch you alive you'll be made into a living toy, slave or gladiator. But in the end, they will not only kill you but eat your soul. And as if their ways of killing you aren't excruciating enough, we should get a *real* look at Necrons and Chaos. There are actually parts of Harry Potter darker than 40K. 

Then again, maybe we a desensitized. Sure, they gloss over the truly evil things(Grey Knights killing those they should protect to bless their weapons), but they are mentioned. They aren't left as some "dark mystery." But things are definitely becoming more kid friendly(to recruit new, over-protected, young gamers). That's why you end up with fluff contradictions like Necrons. That's what I truly dislike. 

But as I said, the new generation are too sheltered. We even shelter them from failure. But that's a rant for another time. We have some kids just starting to play at my gaming store. I think this is great, especially when they say it is more fun than videogames. But we are all making a conscious effort to be no worse they PG around them. When they expressed interest in Daemons, we had to tell them to check with their parents if they could play them. If I bring my Dark Eldar on a night they show up, I have to be careful. Nothing like getting a death glare from their parent when you mention the Wyches' drugs and how they fight better with them. 

Oops. Got a little carried away. Sorry.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

The (What I believe to be almost certain to be true) head authors and editors of Black Library will not finish the Heresy story and fill it out, until we stop caring and they need the extra cash.) That could happen in twenty or thirty years when we stop obsessing (I am as guilty as most). They don't want to finish story lines because then they get paid less as a company. Anyone who thinks GW and BL are a company that doesn't do this for money is incorrect. I think it might even take seven standard years (in real life) to even start the actual battle of Terra. Get read to wait forever, it's a business. Just because they are creative and sometimes great authors does NOT MEAN they give a damn if we get our answers quickly.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

The most disturbing? Probably the fact that if Gahzgkull Thraka got his head on straight, he could unite the Orks and take over the entire galaxy. That the only reason they haven't done so already, is because they can't communicate properly with each other.

Damned be Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons and everything else. They would be beaten by creatures that believe that the color yellow on a bazooka makes it produce a bigger boom.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Where do I start?

The black on black grim-dark to the n-th power nihilism?
Rabid space viking werewolves?
Space vampires?
fungus monsters?

A badly told retread of "Paradise lost", with only the names changed.

Who in their right mind WOULD want to play it?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I think many of you are forgetting that your not GWs target age group and some of you havent been for quite some time, i look back to when i got into the hobby and the books i was reading, tolkien, fighting fantasy,dragon lance where as my father would have been rocking a Tom clancy, Fredic Forsyth or Arthur C Clarke and wouldnt have dreamed of reading some half assed teen scifi like the HH novels or other GW fare.
GWs demographic has changed, when i started the hobby, the stores were full of people wearing studded leather jacket, with long hair and metal t shirts and iron madien would be blasting out on the store stereo (on cassette damn it!) and youths like me were viewed with suspicion, but that era is long gone and the demographic has gone with it, GW openly admit they target the male 12-20 bracket openly, so naturally the products are going to be geared towards that age group and so is the fluff, To someone whos 12 some of the GW stuff is pretty edgy.

Ok the thing i dont like in the fluff is how the numbers simply dont stack up, a thousand marines per chapter and there are about a thousand chapters blah blah blah, ok i know we have to suspend believe for pretty much everything in 40k but the number of active marines is just total bollocks and for me is the thing drastically in need of correction,its irritated me since i first read it, even the legion numbers are far too low.
At the speed it takes to replace a marine and the number that must die per mission they would not have lasted 10k plus years.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Apart from Orcs and Goblins in Fantasy and Orks in 40K no one else goes to the toilet.

No wonder everyone else is fucking angry with 10,000 years of constipation screwing up their lives.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> Ultrasmurfs can win in a 1:1000000000 fight, with little or no casualties.


 
Well how else would they win. They only have 1 guy


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

mob16151 said:


> Well how else would they win. They only have 1 guy


And unlimited ammo hoppers.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> I think many of you are forgetting that your not GWs target age group and some of you havent been for quite some time, i look back to when i got into the hobby and the books i was reading, tolkien, fighting fantasy,dragon lance where as my father would have been rocking a Tom clancy, Fredic Forsyth or Arthur C Clarke and wouldnt have dreamed of reading some half assed teen scifi like the HH novels or other GW fare.
> GWs demographic has changed, when i started the hobby, the stores were full of people wearing studded leather jacket, with long hair and metal t shirts and iron madien would be blasting out on the store stereo (on cassette damn it!) and youths like me were viewed with suspicion, but that era is long gone and the demographic has gone with it, GW openly admit they target the male 12-20 bracket openly, so naturally the products are going to be geared towards that age group and so is the fluff, To someone whos 12 some of the GW stuff is pretty edgy.
> 
> Ok the thing i dont like in the fluff is how the numbers simply dont stack up, a thousand marines per chapter and there are about a thousand chapters blah blah blah, ok i know we have to suspend believe for pretty much everything in 40k but the number of active marines is just total bollocks and for me is the thing drastically in need of correction,its irritated me since i first read it, even the legion numbers are far too low.
> At the speed it takes to replace a marine and the number that must die per mission they would not have lasted 10k plus years.


Well according to some of the fluff i have read, the Ultramarines Legion had over 600,000, and it constitutes to just about 60%+ of all chapters, while the Dark Angels, Salamanders, Blood Angels have been on the verge of extinction for over 10,000 years.

Not only that but are we really expect to believe that a single company can overcome an entire planetary system with billions of folk fighting it, a Space Marine Company, even a Terminator Company would not last more than a few weeks in combat here on a circa 2013 earth, a few tungsten/ceramic core anti personel rounds would kill one in a minute.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well according to some of the fluff i have read, the Ultramarines Legion had over 600,000, and it constitutes to just about 60%+ of all chapters, while the Dark Angels, Salamanders, Blood Angels have been on the verge of extinction for over 10,000 years.
> 
> Not only that but are we really expect to believe that a single company can overcome an entire planetary system with billions of folk fighting it, a Space Marine Company, even a Terminator Company would not last more than a few weeks in combat here on a circa 2013 earth, a few tungsten/ceramic core anti personel rounds would kill one in a minute.


thats pretty much my feelings on it, the numbers really dont work


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

bitsandkits said:


> thats pretty much my feelings on it, the numbers really dont work


My thoughts on it have always been, that this adds to the heroism of the Space Marines. The dying supreme humans, who seek to do (questionable) justice and untold heroism in the face of ever greater threats, who are vastly outnumbered and usually always the underdog. They are the Warhammer 40k equivalent of Chuck Norris against a entire drug cartel.

Don't get me wrong, I think Space Marines are the most boring part of the entire Warhammer 40k story as they are as "bling bling Paladin" as they can be, but I can understand the reason why GW takes the stance on them that they do. If they outnumbered everyone, or were even on the same level numberwise, they would be nothing special. It's the fact that they are so few, that gives them their "heroic stance".


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> I think many of you are forgetting that your not GWs target age group and some of you havent been for quite some time


I don't think I was EVER part of the GW/40k demographic, to be honest.

I know I sure as hell am not part of it now. I'm about 30 years too late for that.

GW was never my "gateway".
GW was never my "only" gaming experience, nor was it ever an exclusive arrangement.
I started playing 40k when I was 19. I stopped for a few years in my mid 20s and then got back in for about 8-9 years in my late 20s. This time period was also way outside the demographic for the game.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

bitsandkits said:


> I think many of you are forgetting that your not GWs target age group and some of you havent been for quite some time,


The annual report from GW seems to disagree with you on that one by the way.

Taken from the post at: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127410



Chairmans preamble said:


> Won’t all your customers move on to computer games instead? (They didn’t; most of our current customers weren’t born when the Atari ST came out.)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well 40k. tries to pander to everyone (just look at the Tau blatant pandering to Asian stuff). And I think they do that well. I mean they know who their main buyers are that's the group 12-20 male.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm honestly glad that 40k isn't any more depressing. I don't want to read 'Game of Thrones in Space' (although it'd be interesting if Martin wrote for the HH, if only to find out that Horus and Sanguinius were secretly lovers the ENTIRE TIME) I like how the whole series gives you the feel of the Imperium constantly in the midst of a 10,000 year long last stand. Lots of heroism and bravery, surrounded by constant lost and a general sense of inevitable doom.

I often find myself wondering how on Earth they'll ever wrap the story up. No business will last forever, and some day in the grimdark of the far, far future GW will have to close up shop. Will they tell the end of the story before then? Or will there be some kind of apocalyptic intellectual property rights battle that prevents anyone from ever letting us know what the effing Hell was in that book on Mars in 'Mechanicum?'


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

SonOfStan, on your last point I completely agree, if GW and their BL writing team are successful we will all be twenty years older before they finish the Heresy. As I business owner I understand lasting as long as you can. However I know if for some reason GW starts having financial issues they will fly through the series to make more money. That's how nearly all companies work. Sadly the final battle of Terra is years and years away, I would bet thousands on that.


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