# Where do Imperial Saints Get There Power From?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I get the impression that they're a strange equivalent of chaos champion in that they channel energy from another source within the warp in the way that Khornate champions channel energy from Khorne (I think unless I've got that badly wrong :laugh

Are they unwittingly channelling powers linked to Khorne (through anger aggression and martial honour) or do their abilities come from somewhere else?

Is this info contained within the fluff anywhere?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Oh the Emperor himself. That's at least my interpretation of it. They are like like Greater Daemons of Empy but with other names of course. Again my interpretation.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I don't remember hearing about a Codex reference on the source of their power, other than it coming from the Emperor himself. I have noted in the past how, in Galaxy In Flames, Euphratie Keeler has several different instances of drawing on power that isn't based on psyker access to the warp and it does a hell of a lot of damage to anything Chaos-driven... she's using her Aquila necklace at first, but then it burns her skin with it's image and that seems to enable her to continue drawing upon the power.

The additional interesting thing is she's doing all this before either Isstvan III, much less V, and arguably Magnus hasn't broken the seal on the Warp Gate room on Terra. If this is power drawn directly from the Emperor, then it implies he knew about Horus's betrayal before the Heresy was officially kicked off at Isstvan V. I think this is a subject that the BL would leave best as a 'mystery'.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> The additional interesting thing is she's doing all this before either Isstvan III, much less V, and arguably Magnus hasn't broken the seal on the Warp Gate room on Terra. If this is power drawn directly from the Emperor, then it implies he knew about Horus's betrayal before the Heresy was officially kicked off at Isstvan V. I think this is a subject that the BL would leave best as a 'mystery'.


Possible. I prefer to think because the emperor is such a massive psyker that some of his....psykic 'stuff' leaks out and sometimes hears the person calling for aid, sort of like a moth to....you know.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think its a kind of two part thing. They draw power from their Faith in the big E, thats what allows them to hurt deamons, their utter unshakeable belief in the Emporer repeals and hurts chaos by it's very nature. Kind of like Garlic and Vampires. 

Secondly I think in some cases possibly the Emperor "gives" them the ability to do perform super human things. Kind of like demonic possession really. 

I'll give it some more thought.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks guys, I thought about this the other day and it got me thinking. I was leaning towards the Emperor as a source but then I read something on another thread (can't remember which one sorry) where someone said that most emotions somehow link to the Chaos powers (anger to Khorne, despair to Nurgle etc etc) and this got me wondering, if the Saint experienced one of these "chaotic feeding" emotions (I've not got a better name sorry ) then they could be drawing power from the Emperor while feeding or even drawing from a chaos power.

Ouch that hurts my brain.

Does the fact they can draw on the Emperor's power imply he is a god, or does it imply that he enables Saints to draw upon the untainted warp somehow (which is what I guess Grey Knights do when they focus their powers)?

*Waits for COTE to get involved as this discussion involves the warp


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Blind Faith seems to feed Empy, and I think of Empy as a god. I mean he turned down being named a god doesn't mean for me he isn't one especially now on the Golden Throne where the question is whether or not he would die or ascend and still are powerful enough to feed people shards of him making Saints.

One thing I wonder is how powerful are an Imperial Saint. Abnett has painted them down as ludicrous glass cannons with Saint Sabbat. I on the other side was under the impression they should be about as mighty as Greater Daemons as I think of them as the good counter-part.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I get the impression that they're a strange equivalent of chaos champion in that they channel energy from another source within the warp in the way that Khornate champions channel energy from Khorne (I think unless I've got that badly wrong :laugh


I think of them more as a shaman or similarly primitive psyker. They channel warp energy without really intending to or understanding how. 

Chaos Champions specifically channel aspects aligned with their God, whereas Imperial psykers (and thus Saints) simply channel whatever aspect/area they are most able to. The nature of the warp means that this aspect/area will be Chaos-aligned in at least a small manner, but it doesn't require ritual or specific intent to access.

Now, it is possible that the Emperor is acting through these Saints, in a manner that would be most similar to possession, but I think that unlikely. The Emperor has a lot on his plate, and has for a very long time, and his power is waning. If he had the ability to intervene directly in the affairs of mortals I think he would be choosing to intervene in situations that actually affect the survival of the Imperium (the 13th Black Crusade for example is far more important than the Sabbat Worlds). I also don't think he would be choosing to intervene through people who are specifically attempting to channel him through Lorgar's forbidden religion. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Blind Faith seems to feed Empy, and I think of Empy as a god.


"Blind Faith" isn't an emotion and thus has no resonance within the warp (and thus can't feed anything in there).



> One thing I wonder is how powerful are an Imperial Saint. Abnett has painted them down as ludicrous glass cannons with Saint Sabbat. I on the other side was under the impression they should be about as mighty as Greater Daemons as I think of them as the good counter-part.


1) An author has actually stated within official fluff how powerful a 'Living Saint' is. That should answer your question.
2) They aren't the good counter-part to a Greater Daemon because a) Greater Daemons aren't evil and b) the Imperium isn't good.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

MEQ it's okay you think that way, but you are presenting your opinion as fluff. I don't agree with your sentiment pure and simple.

And I asked how strong they are. One author had one presentation, while Dawn of War presented another and other authors has had their presentations. And Greater Daemons not being evil? Well again your opinion. I have mine.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

To continue to draw upon the daemon analogy, I think each of the saints probably have different abilities and strengths. 

To throw in my change about the good vs evil debate...good and evil are entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

This is even more difficult to nail down when one compares one culture to another.

Further yet when you compare one species to another.

To label Chaos as "evil" would be ethnocentric. To label the Imperium as "good" is to ignore the grimdarkness of the setting (IE. most of the fluff ).


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's a rough generalization, it's not that I think of the IOM as not horrible or that. I thought that was bloody obvious.

As for culture? WTF? Which culture is Chaos? Squick? They are basic raw feelings.

And what? Labing Chaos as evil is compared to genocides? Have you gone insane hailene? I mean I just think some gods in a human-made game are evil and you are calling me a racist? You should really stop thinking about 40k. if that's your opinion cause I can write some crazy stuff but not that crazy.

But the first point you had hailene was good, each Saint having their own strengths and such.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Now, it is possible that the Emperor is acting through these Saints, in a manner that would be most similar to possession, but I think that unlikely. The Emperor has a lot on his plate, and has for a very long time, and his power is waning. If he had the ability to intervene directly in the affairs of mortals I think he would be choosing to intervene in situations that actually affect the survival of the Imperium (the 13th Black Crusade for example is far more important than the Sabbat Worlds). I also don't think he would be choosing to intervene through people who are specifically attempting to channel him through Lorgar's forbidden religion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's why I think the emp is doing it subconsciously.

Devotion, adoration, what ever.

Drop it he think the Imp is good, don't try to change it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> MEQ it's okay you think that way, but you are presenting your opinion as fluff. I don't agree with your sentiment pure and simple.


Note words like: "I think" which I use to lead in to my opinions.

The parts that I present as fluff are fluff. The Warp reflects emotions, that's very strongly established in fluff. The way Chaos Champions and psykic powers work are also pretty strongly established. As is the Imperium not being good.



Beaviz81 said:


> As for culture? WTF? Which culture is Chaos? Squick? They are basic raw feelings.


Chaos is represented in numerous cultures, and the Gods themselves can be viewed as an alien culture.



> And what? Labing Chaos as evil is compared to genocides?


He called it "ethnocentric" meaning: Evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture. He never once mentioned genocide, because he's clearly not insane.



locustgate said:


> That's why I think the emp is doing it subconsciously.


That is possible, but again I think it unlikely. Firstly (and semantically) because the Emperor isn't currently conscious and thus everything he does would be subconsciously. Secondly (and less pedantically) the Emperor barely has the power required to sustain the things he is actively concentrating on (ie. the Astronomicon) which makes me think it's highly unlikely that he has the power to spare to help random people that he doesn't really have any reason to want to help. Certainly that seems less likely to me than a dozen nascent psykers discovering/interpreting their powers through faith.



> Devotion, adoration, what ever.


I don't know if these could really be considered emotions in the warp sense, as Chaos obviously would feel them as well, and if they can they would be in the domain of Slaanesh.



> Drop it he think the Imp is good, don't try to change it.


So? Just because he's fervent in his opinion doesn't mean I can't state my own.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Okay, I apologize for that one Meq.

Compared to the rest the IOM is good, at least in my opinion.

The Imperial fanaticism is embraced by Empy so it must be feeding him somehow. How else do you rationalize him allowing it? And faith in something grander is a very common emotion, just ask any religious person. Of course you could see away from it.

The Chaos gods are raw feeling so have you stated yourself many times MEQ. There is no culture attached to feelings. Their followers on the other hand has plenty of human culture, but 40k. is one huge breach of copyright as I guess every human knowing about it would agree on.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Compared to the rest the IOM is good, at least in my opinion.


An oppressive, racist, fanatic, despotic Orwellian dystopia: that's good in your opinion?



> The Imperial fanaticism is embraced by Empy so it must be feeding him somehow. How else do you rationalize him allowing it?


He didn't allow it. He made numerous policy decisions to outlaw it. He punished his own son for it. 

He can't stop it now because he's a corpse on a chair but that doesn't mean he approves, let alone embraces it.



> And faith in something grander is a very common emotion, just ask any religious person.


Faith isn't really an emotion, it's a thought process. It's the decision to accept something without necessarily having evidence for it. Decisions aren't emotions.



> The Chaos gods are raw feeling so have you stated yourself many times MEQ. There is no culture attached to feelings. Their followers on the other hand has plenty of human culture, but 40k.


The Chaos Gods are fed by and heavily based upon emotions. However one can look at their behaviour and their relationships with each other and with their followers and ascribe something similar to a culture to it. They are after-all *sentient* emotion.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

He was conscious when entombed on the Golden Throne. That has been pretty much established in fluff from the get-go. And there he endorsed the Imperial Faith in him as the God Emperor. I wasn't speaking about the HH and it was a gap between when Lorgar worshiped him and him striking it down on three years that tells me he weighed his options.

I disagree with your opinion about faith MEQ. That's a very raw feeling and the bread and butter for Empy to feast on, beside the 10.000 psykers he is fed daily.

Showing ambition ain't culture in my opinion.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> He was conscious when entombed on the Golden Throne. That has been pretty much established in fluff from the get-go. And there he endorsed the Imperial Faith in him as the God Emperor.


Except he didn't endorse the Imperial Faith. Not as he was put on the Throne (IIRC he wasn't able to say much of anything at that point) and not at any point since. He specifically, repeatedly condemns the Lecto Divinicus throughout his reign and his Imperial Truth is completely antithetical to it. A complete 180 on the policy on his death-bed would be bizarre. 



> it was a gap between when Lorgar worshiped him and him striking it down on three years that tells me he weighed his options.


He hoped Lorgar would come around and when he didn't he punished him. As you say, he weighed his options and the decision he came to was to punish, in an extremely forthright manner, his most religious son and the man directly responsible for the creation of the Imperial Creed. Doesn't that tell you something about his opinion on it?



> That's a very raw feeling and the bread and butter for Empy to feast on, beside the 10.000 psykers he is fed daily.


Alright, leaving aside the issue of whether or not faith is an emotion, there's still a big problem with this statement. You're assuming the Emperor, essentially just a really powerful psyker, can actually feed on emotions. No where in the fluff is that established. No where in the fluff is that even hinted at. The Imperium doesn't believe he can do that (they just believe it doesn't matter), so why should we? As for the 10,000 psykers, you realize that's almost exclusively to power the Astronomicon right? It has nothing to do with powering him up or any other type of worship. They aren't even sacrificed to him, they're plugged in to a machine that drains their powers to the point where they die. The pain and fear they feel through-out that process feeds the Chaos Gods. 



> Showing ambition ain't culture in my opinion.


Agreed. Showing ambition can be part of a culture though (as it is in many real-world ones).


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You are forgetting Empy actually spoke and gave his final instructions to Dorn and a few other people MEQ in the throne-room with the last gusts of strength from the Siglilite. That's for me speaks of a guy that finally embraced he was a god, something he had fought against his entire life. And why the hell should Empy say worship me like a god if it did nothing for him? Are all the Priests of the IOM wrong. Do they baselessly believe in something just for the kick of it? I mean the Ecclechiarchy is so strong for a reason.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You are forgetting Empy actually spoke and gave his final instructions to Dorn and a few other people MEQ in the throne-room with the last gusts of strength from the Siglilite.


Oh yeah I did forget that, thanks for reminding me. However, the Emperor's final orders do not include anything about the Lecto Divincus, which notably does not become the official religion until quite a bit latter.



> That's for me speaks of a guy that finally embraced he was a god, something he had fought against his entire life.


That to me speaks of a man recognizing that he was dying. Gods can't die.



> Are all the Priests of the IOM wrong. Do they baselessly believe in something just for the kick of it?


Basically, yes. There religion isn't baseless, the Emperor did do many awesome things, but that doesn't make him a god, let alone God.

I mean many planets believe the God-Emperor is their sun, others revere Him as an Animal-totem or a Sky-god, but they are provable wrong. The Ecclesiarchy is provably wrong in many aspects of its belief.



> I mean the Ecclechiarchy is so strong for a reason.


The Ecclesiarchy is strong because it serves as a unifying belief for humanity to share (sort of). That many people believe various versions of the same story makes it easier to get those people to work together, and it makes them easier to control. That doesn't have anything to do with the correctness of their religion. The strength of a faith has more to do with the conviction and strength of its followers and the truth of its message than it does with the 'truth' of its belief.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Gods can't die? You obviously ain't from Viking stock, our entire mythos was about the death of gods beginning with Balder. Egyptian mythology was also about gods dying. Gods dying is common in Conan the Barbarian. You played into my hands there my friend. 

I have seen nothing to the contrary, rather the opposite as Empy laid dying there, but I guess we can agree to disagree on that one.

Again you voice your POV for me they are religious nutjobs because that's what Empy needs and he rejecting god-hood was more him not wanting to be recognized as one than the actual truth. It's him being modest not not god-like, at least in my opinion.

And that's makes the Ecclechiarchy so strong as they must indoctrinate every living human into believing in him. Of course them being a corrupt church also helps, but they are Catolics in space the nasty ones with the Inquisition and such.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Again you voice your POV for me they are religious nutjobs because that's what Empy needs and he rejecting god-hood was more him not wanting to be recognized as one than the actual truth. It's him being modest not not god-like, at least in my opinion.


If the Emperor needs a religion to worship him, why wouldn't he make one? Why would he continually reject ones that started to appear? Why would he punish those who did worship him? Modesty? Really? The man who would rule the galaxy and all mankind, who lives in a house the size of a continent, who likes to walk around as a giant glowing gold man; modest?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You must draw the line between when he is alive and well and when dying or ascending not knowing which. And maybe he considered being a god beneath him as he is as you pointed out not very modest. Bad or ironically chosen words I guess, just like the IOM being good. And he ended up making one when dying didn't him, the last things he said really plays into my hand there. At least that's how I see it, it's a move of desperation and from a desire to stay alive. And yeah he is a bloody hypocrite but so are many people in the setting. The hypocrite can still be right.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

A couple of thoughts from me:

Gods can't die as they are warp energy - bloody big and powerful clumps yes but still warp energy. However their avatars can. I wonder whether the Emperor's physical body is simply an avatar (like a willing possessee for a greater daemon but far more powerful as they are channelling a true god's powers. (Just my thoughts - not based in fluff).

Going back to the original question and linking it to some of the points raised - even though the Emperor denied being a god and suppressed all religions, it may be that subsequent to his internment on the golden throne, his spirit form has evolved as a result of 10k years of psyker soul absorption and he now has the ability to benefit from worship in a way he didn't have while he was truly alive. (Again just a theory).

This then enables him subconsciously to empower the saints.

One final thing for now - someone (sorry can't remember who and I'm too tired to check) said that why would the Emperor not send saints to places that actually matter (like the 13th Crusade) rather than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. If I remember correctly, for a chaos god to empower their daemons great build up of warp energies specifically aligned to that power must have taken place within the vicinity. (slaughter for Khorne, disease for Nurgle etc etc).

The chaos gods know this and their high ranking followers almost certainly do as well. It seems logical to me that to weaken the Imperium and prevent the appearance of a Saint, the Chaos powers need to weaken the faith of the Imperial personnel in the area they are looking to attack. A weakened faith means it's much harder for a Saint to manifest due to the disruption of the warp meaning the Emperor's equivalent of a greater daemon is starved of power and so cannot manifest. The saint would suffer an "instability" problem and so cannot link sufficiently with the Emperor/untainted warp. (I still don't know if their abilities come from the Emperor or the untainted warp).

In other areas where the Chaos forces have been scattered or haven't been able to disrupt the warp enough, a Saint can manifest due to the faith of the local Imperial personnel being enough to somehow allow it to reach whatever critical mass is needed to turn a normal human into a Saint.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

By all cause zera I agree with you. I think your comment is spot-on with my belief of how Empy functions, and I especially liked your theory about the Saints. That enough earns you a repper.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Cheers, glad someone is thinking along the same lines :grin:


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

The question really is, what exactly _is_ the Emperor, and what are the limits of his power? Calling the guy a super-psyker is really kind of an understatement. I'm not sure whether the whole 'Shamans of Anatolia' thing is canon, but if it is, it certainly suggests that there's a bit more to him then just being an amped up Warp user. If it's accurate, it means that he's exactly what a lot of daemons refer to him as; the Anathema of all things Chaos, brought into being for the sole purpose of keeping the Dark Gods away from Humanity. 

We know for a fact that certain Imperial rites, prayers and icons _sometimes_ have extremely adverse effects on daemons. We also know that on occasion miracles can occur for Imperial servants even if it doesn't directly involve daemons, or even particularly faithful individuals (I'm thinking of the dog in 'Brothers of the Snake' and the throw away 'Year of Ghosts' reference in the rulebook) To me that indicates that it might be more then an individual just using 'pure Warp' power (whatever that is) It might indicate that the Emperor is aware to the point of omniscience of what's befalling Imperial servants, or at the very least that he's aware of important things happening to important people and able to effect them in some way.

Now on the other hand, obviously lots and lots of faithful Imperial citizens die every time a daemonic incursion comes swooping through their sector. Obviously many of the ones who died will be 'true believers,' and since stories like Euphrati Keeler's seem rare, I'm guessing that holding up an aquila against a Greater Daemon doesn't always work even if you sincerely believe it will. For whatever reason, just believing in the Emperor isn't enough; faith = protection isn't always a rule. 

The question is, why? Is it because the Emperor lacks the psychic juice to constantly toss out miracles for all the faithful? Are only certain individuals born with the capability to interact with him in such a fashion? If that's the case, is there some sort of Saint 'gene' perhaps?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not going to quote everything but I am going to argue against a few points I've read along the way here. 

The Chaos Gods may not be evil but I will argue that the majority of daemons certainly are. They are made to be because that best exemplifies and feeds what their parent emotion is, and thus it serves their master better to be malevolent rather than benign. There will be exceptions of course, but with daemons I think there is more room to make a case for evil or benign on a daemon to daemon basis. 

The Emperor is the most likely source for a Living Saint's power simply because there is no other viable source. If the Emperor is indeed the object of the Imperium's worship then it seems unlikely that a lesser individual could tap that power without "help." 

I'll also say I strongly believe worship can create/feed gods, as this is the method by which the eldar and ork gods came into being. The Old Ones created the Eldar as a powerful psyker race and encouraged them to dream and worship, resulting in the manifestations of their pantheon of gods who went on to battle the c'tan during the war in Heaven. Although these times are largely myth, ideas ingrained deeply enough into eldar psyche do seem to have a visible impact on the warp, as is evident in the more recent death of the eldar pantheon to be replaced by the more hedonistic base desires of the eldar which triggered the birth of Slaanesh. Even now the manifestation of the War song and exarch powers still speak strongly of Khaine's presence, as does the temporary resurrection of his Avatars in times of war. 

Expanding on that however, I will point out that these eldar gods were formed across millions and millions of years and were still struck down by a single Chaos God. So while the Emperor may indeed be feeding upon worship it is nigh impossible he will ever reach the same power levels of the other gods to have existed in such a relatively short period of time. It is credible however that he is able to gift certain individuals with divine abilities on rare occasion. 


On the Emperor's religion, whether he secretly planned it or not the fluff points numerous times to his desire to abolish all religion and the idea of worship. His plan originally was to weaken the Chaos gods of their power and establish a united human empire founded on the principles of scientific advancement.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Going back to the original question and linking it to some of the points raised - even though the Emperor denied being a god and suppressed all religions, it may be that subsequent to his internment on the golden throne, his spirit form has evolved as a result of 10k years of psyker soul absorption and he now has the ability to benefit from worship in a way he didn't have while he was truly alive. (Again just a theory).


My question would then be: How? Can souls 'evolve' in the manner you suggest, we've seen nothing to suggest that they can. We've seen nothing to suggest that things can 'ascend' to the level of the Chaos Gods, or at least to a state similar to theirs.



> It seems logical to me that to weaken the Imperium and prevent the appearance of a Saint, the Chaos powers need to weaken the faith of the Imperial personnel in the area they are looking to attack. A weakened faith means it's much harder for a Saint to manifest due to the disruption of the warp meaning the Emperor's equivalent of a greater daemon is starved of power and so cannot manifest. The saint would suffer an "instability" problem and so cannot link sufficiently with the Emperor/untainted warp. (I still don't know if their abilities come from the Emperor or the untainted warp).


While the logic here is sound, it doesn't hold up even in the example you're specifically responding to. Cadia is an Imperial system and has been for a long time, it's populations fervor is well-noted in fluff. Yet they can't 'manifest' a Saint there. On the other hand the Sabbat Worlds are a primarily Chaos controlled system, the Imperial worlds being generally fair recently recovered. How is it that this system can 'manifest' a Saint but Cadia can't?



SonOfStan said:


> The question really is, what exactly _is_ the Emperor, and what are the limits of his power? Calling the guy a super-psyker is really kind of an understatement. I'm not sure whether the whole 'Shamans of Anatolia' thing is canon, but if it is, it certainly suggests that there's a bit more to him then just being an amped up Warp user.


Not really. Remember that until fairly recently perfectly regular Eldar were capable of reincarnation in a manner similar to the Shamans. Fluff has established that sufficiently powerful souls are capable of maintaining cohesion through physical death, so the fact that the Emperor could do it still lines up with him being a super-psyker.



> We know for a fact that certain Imperial rites, prayers and icons _sometimes_ have extremely adverse effects on daemons. We also know that on occasion miracles can occur for Imperial servants even if it doesn't directly involve daemons, or even particularly faithful individuals (I'm thinking of the dog in 'Brothers of the Snake' and the throw away 'Year of Ghosts' reference in the rulebook) To me that indicates that it might be more then an individual just using 'pure Warp' power (whatever that is)


We also know that the Orks are capable of firing their guns (and killing people with them) based on nothing but belief. We know that belief impacts the warp without recourse to 'gods'. The Imperium always frames such warp flukes as miracles from God simply because the Imperium always frames everything through the Imperial Creed. Just because people believe something happens through God, doesn't mean it does. The Imperial Creed is provably wrong in other aspects of its metaphysical teachings, why should we believe they're right in this?



> It might indicate that the Emperor is aware to the point of omniscience of what's befalling Imperial servants, or at the very least that he's aware of important things happening to important people and able to effect them in some way.


If the Emperor was omniscient, would he not intervene in areas of import? Your statement about his intervening in the affairs of 'important people' flies in the face of his lack of involvement in the 13th Black Crusade, arguably the most important event in modern 40k.



> The question is, why? Is it because the Emperor lacks the psychic juice to constantly toss out miracles for all the faithful? Are only certain individuals born with the capability to interact with him in such a fashion? If that's the case, is there some sort of Saint 'gene' perhaps?


Basically yes. The Saint 'gene' is the psyker 'gene'. The reason only certain people can manifest miracles is because only certain people can draw the power from the warp necessary to create those miracles, and even fewer can escape notice long enough to not be collared as a psyker.



Serpion5 said:


> The Chaos Gods may not be evil but I will argue that the majority of daemons certainly are. They are made to be because that best exemplifies and feeds what their parent emotion is, and thus it serves their master better to be malevolent rather than benign.


Chaos Daemons are not more evil than the Tyranids or Lions. They do what they were created to do, to feed themselves and prosper.



> The Emperor is the most likely source for a Living Saint's power simply because there is no other viable source.


How is the warp not a viable source? 

We know people loyal to the Emperor can draw from it. Why is it that the Saints can't.



> I'll also say I strongly believe worship can create/feed gods, as this is the method by which the eldar and ork gods came into being.


I'd question how similar the Eldar pantheon (and the Ork one) are to the Emperor. Both the Eldar and the Orks are shown to be immensely powerful psykers, such that both can reach into the warp and preform things beyond the ken of most humans. The creation of their gods is much the same. 

Further the Eldar and Ork gods were created from scratch. How exactly they did it, I obviously don't know, but it seems pretty clear that they didn't exist until the Eldar/Orks made them. The Emperor existed for a very long time before he was declared a god, surely that affects the process. The Emperor was clearly made a 'mortal' and there is a very big difference between making a god and making a 'mortal' into a god.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> My question would then be: How? Can souls 'evolve' in the manner you suggest, we've seen nothing to suggest that they can. We've seen nothing to suggest that things can 'ascend' to the level of the Chaos Gods, or at least to a state similar to theirs.


The only thing I can think of was the growth of Slaanesh which probably started as a minor warp entity caused as a result of the decadence of the Eldar. It could be argued that Slaanesh evolved and grew in power until it was the god we now know. Could the Emperor's soul be growing and evolving as a result of the behaviour of the Imperial people who worship it in the same way as Slaanesh grew and evolved?



MEQinc said:


> While the logic here is sound, it doesn't hold up even in the example you're specifically responding to. Cadia is an Imperial system and has been for a long time, it's populations fervor is well-noted in fluff. Yet they can't 'manifest' a Saint there. On the other hand the Sabbat Worlds are a primarily Chaos controlled system, the Imperial worlds being generally fair recently recovered. How is it that this system can 'manifest' a Saint but Cadia can't?


I agree that Cadia is fervently pro Emperor but I wonder if the proximity to the Eye of Terror somehow inherently weakens it's people's ability to channel the Emperor's power into a Saint? (Pure guess, I have no idea). Regarding the Sabbat Worlds, the Saint appeared on a shrine world (Hagia I think) and this may have had some sort of influence since this was her shrine and there was the link there. The great psychic engines used to destroy the incoming chaos fleet in "Honour Guard" by Dan Abnett are an example of Imperial technology which could have influenced the manifesting of the saint in that area of space. (Just a guess).



MEQinc said:


> Not really. Remember that until fairly recently perfectly regular Eldar were capable of reincarnation in a manner similar to the Shamans. Fluff has established that sufficiently powerful souls are capable of maintaining cohesion through physical death, so the fact that the Emperor could do it still lines up with him being a super-psyker.


Fair enough, no argument here.



MEQinc said:


> We also know that the Orks are capable of firing their guns (and killing people with them) based on nothing but belief. We know that belief impacts the warp without recourse to 'gods'. The Imperium always frames such warp flukes as miracles from God simply because the Imperium always frames everything through the Imperial Creed. Just because people believe something happens through God, doesn't mean it does. The Imperial Creed is provably wrong in other aspects of its metaphysical teachings, why should we believe they're right in this?


This brings an interesting thought to mind, do saints have their powers simply because the people believe strongly enough that they should in the same way that Orks can believe things that subsequently come to pass?



MEQinc said:


> If the Emperor was omniscient, would he not intervene in areas of import? Your statement about his intervening in the affairs of 'important people' flies in the face of his lack of involvement in the 13th Black Crusade, arguably the most important event in modern 40k.


I wonder if the answer to this is in the Outcast Dead when the Emperor says he can either be omniscient or omnipotent but not both at once. Since the Emperor is now having to simply sit on the golden throne so he can't be omnipotent so he chooses to aid the Imperium by being omniscient instead. This however doesn't aid directly during the 13th Black Crusade. 



MEQinc said:


> How is the warp not a viable source? We know people loyal to the Emperor can draw from it. Why is it that the Saints can't.


I agree in a way. I'm still not decided whether all or just some of a Saint's power comes from the Emperor and whether the remainder comes from the untainted warp.



MEQinc said:


> I'd question how similar the Eldar pantheon (and the Ork one) are to the Emperor. Both the Eldar and the Orks are shown to be immensely powerful psykers, such that both can reach into the warp and preform things beyond the ken of most humans. The creation of their gods is much the same.
> 
> Further the Eldar and Ork gods were created from scratch. How exactly they did it, I obviously don't know, but it seems pretty clear that they didn't exist until the Eldar/Orks made them. The Emperor existed for a very long time before he was declared a god, surely that affects the process. The Emperor was clearly made a 'mortal' and there is a very big difference between making a god and making a 'mortal' into a god.


Going back to my original answer at the top of this answer, I think the Emperor's soul could be evolving in the same way as Slaanesh grew and this also ties in with the way the Ork and Eldar gods were created. For all we know both could originally have been mortals who achieved a form of apostheosis and achieved a form of daemonhood without a god to support them, in a similar way to daemon princes of chaos undivided do so. 

The Eldar and Ork gods could then have grown relatively quickly due to their races being more naturally powerfully psychic. The Emperor by comparison could be growing more slowly as the human race is generally weaker psychically.

This is pure conjecture however so I'm not presenting this as fact i.e. I'm not "doing a Lux" :laugh:


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding the God Emperor empowering the faithful, its all Lorgar to blame for it I strongly believe.

We know he was quite active spreading his little cult during the Great Crusade, which spread like a wildfire thanks to his supreme penmanship swaying any that read the Lectitio Diviniatus to the nascent imperial cult. Imagine it, a wast spidery web of faith spreading through the imperium and channeling it towards terra.

Lorgar's supreme faith, zeal and devotion directing and leading the growing worship of his idealized image of his divine father. The God Emperor. And all that faith coallescencing together in the warp began to give birth to a new warp entity, still an infant, but able to aid those most strongly attuned to it such as Euphrati Keeler.

But where Lorgar erred, was to believe the living Emperor to be the physical representation of his god. His whole world view shattered and cracked when his god rebuked him and turned away from him, never realizing that the God Emperor he had unwittingly created in the warp was not analogous with the living Emperor on Terra.

Then I speculate that the nascent God Emperor entity was responsible for weakening, if not outright incapacitating the living Emperor so that he no longer could interfere with its growth as a major warp power. Reduced to a silent husk entombed on the Golden Throne of Terra. Well knowing of his anti religious sentiments that soon would be utterly forgotten as the Imperial Cult sunk its roots into the once secular imperium. And now wholly a part of the Great Game between the powers of the warp.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> The only thing I can think of was the growth of Slaanesh which probably started as a minor warp entity caused as a result of the decadence of the Eldar. It could be argued that Slaanesh evolved and grew in power until it was the god we now know. Could the Emperor's soul be growing and evolving as a result of the behaviour of the Imperial people who worship it in the same way as Slaanesh grew and evolved?


1) Slaanesh doesn't have a soul in the 40k sense.
2) Slaanesh didn't evolve, she didn't change state or anything like that she just got more powerful.
3) Thanks to the timey-whimey ball of the warp, Slaanesh has always been a god. In fact she's specifically mentioned in Eldar fluff as having "fueled her own birth".



> For all we know both could originally have been mortals who achieved a form of apostheosis and achieved a form of daemonhood without a god to support them, in a similar way to daemon princes of chaos undivided do so.


1) We have no evidence to suggest that the Eldar or Ork gods were once mortals but we do have some (admittedly scant) evidence that they weren't.
2) Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided are infused with raw warp energy that they manage to contain and harness. The Eldar gods were basically pure warp energy that may have been given corporeal form and the Ork gods appear to be either non-existent or purely warp beings. There's a pretty major difference there. I suppose the Emperor could be becoming something like a Daemon Prince but there is an absolutely huge gulf between the power level of a Daemon Prince and the Chaos Gods.
3) Daemon Princes aren't able to possess or project power through their followers, nor do they gain power from being worshiped.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> 1) Slaanesh doesn't have a soul in the 40k sense.
> 2) Slaanesh didn't evolve, she didn't change state or anything like that she just got more powerful.
> 3) Thanks to the timey-whimey ball of the warp, Slaanesh has always been a god. In fact she's specifically mentioned in Eldar fluff as having "fueled her own birth".
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying. It's all a difficult one to discuss without sounding like I'm arguing. I genuinely don't know and don't pretend to be an expert by any means. There's so much about the warp and how warp beings come into existence that we don't know. For all we know the Emperor could be benefitting from the "timey-whimey ball" (awesome phrase by the way!! :laugh that while he's not a god yet in the material world, he already might be/always has been in the warp 

Ouch, the timey-whimey thing hurts to think about - the only thing that I can think comes close to describing this time thing in the warp is this quote from the TV show Red Dwarf "Actually sir, we don't ever have existed here anymore, but this is hardly the time to be conjugating temporal verbs in the past impossible never tense." Turn that around and the Chaos gods "always have existed in the warp, and we can only discuss them in using temporal verbs in the past/future possible/impossible never/always tense." :grin: (I loved Red Dwarf)

I'm hoping that COTE can give his input on the whole matter - Saints, their powers, the Emperor's powers and if/how he grants them and all the other points as he seems to be the designated foremost authority on chaos and the warp.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Wait haven't the cahos gods been born at different occasions. Like Khorne during the middle-ages, Slaanesh was squicked to life by the depravity of the Eldars and Nurgle well 1349 I think I recall being his DOB. Of course I take things from memory.

And Empy seems to gain power from getting worshiped. I mean he is far mightier than even Doombred who is the mightiest Daemon Prince. He is a god in all but name, as why else would he permit the last words-thingy to happen?

And who the hell COTE is escapes me, but I haven't been there this long.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

The Emperor's last words had nothing to do with his impending ascension. He didn't say "Oh, and btw, make sure you set up a huge church militant so I can have a side of worship with my psyker-meals." He was just warning hos boys that things were going to really suck from then on and that they had to be eternally vigilant. It was only as word of the Emperor's sacrifice spread throughout the Imperium that he began to be deified openly. By the 32nd millennium, 2/3 of the Imperium were united in his worship (as opposed to "all of it" in M41). The Emperor needs a lot of things to keep going (a steady diet of thousands of psykers a day, for instance), but worship doesn't seem to be one of them. 

As for how Imperial saints get their power, it seems to be somewhat similar to how the Chaos gods reward their followers- almost instinctually. Like them, the Emperor seems to be capable of manifesting small bits of his power through someone (non-psychic) who has the necessary strength of faith in Him. While I don't think he needs this faith to survive (as he is still technically bound to his mortal body), it needs to be present in an individual if they are to channel his blessings. Emotions are what the Warp is made of. It's kind of in the same way that, say, Mutilators or Havocs merge with their weapons to reflect their obsession.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Wait haven't the cahos gods been born at different occasions. Like Khorne during the middle-ages, Slaanesh was squicked to life by the depravity of the Eldars and Nurgle well 1349 I think I recall being his DOB. Of course I take things from memory.
> 
> And Empy seems to gain power from getting worshiped. I mean he is far mightier than even Doombred who is the mightiest Daemon Prince. He is a god in all but name, as why else would he permit the last words-thingy to happen?
> 
> And who the hell COTE is escapes me, but I haven't been there this long.


Emp born 8k Bc All Gods, minus slaanesh 8k Bc- 1400 Ad. Though the exact order of their birth is unknown.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> For all we know the Emperor could be benefitting from the "timey-whimey ball" (awesome phrase by the way!! :laugh that while he's not a god yet in the material world, he already might be/always has been in the warp


My money's on him being Khorne then (all that tasty xenos-hate).



Beaviz81 said:


> Wait haven't the cahos gods been born at different occasions. Like Khorne during the middle-ages, Slaanesh was squicked to life by the depravity of the Eldars and Nurgle well 1349 I think I recall being his DOB. Of course I take things from memory.


1) That fluffs outdated, possibly retconed and patently ridiculous.
2) As per my previous statement regarding the big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff that is the warp: the gods have always existed, but they were also born, but they were present during their birth and actually helped themselves be born.



> And Empy seems to gain power from getting worshiped.


Does he? Show me where. All the fluff I've ever seen on the Emperor shows or suggests that he is far, far weaker now than he was before his interment on the Throne.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Not really. Remember that until fairly recently perfectly regular Eldar were capable of reincarnation in a manner similar to the Shamans. Fluff has established that sufficiently powerful souls are capable of maintaining cohesion through physical death, so the fact that the Emperor could do it still lines up with him being a super-psyker. .


I guess the question then would be how exactly one defines what a god is. Like Lorgar said, the Emperor is a god in the sense that there is absolutely no other Human that comes remotely close to him in terms of power. He's up there with some of the most powerful beings in the universe. So whether he's the greatest super-psyker or all time or a 'god' really doesn't make a huge difference. It's semantics at this point.

And besides, there's a difference between a soul evolving, and (like I said) thousands of super-psyker souls pooling themselves together for a single purpose. That is what makes the Emperor as powerful as he is. That is what probably makes him the 'Anathema' to Chaos.





MEQinc said:


> We also know that the Orks are capable of firing their guns (and killing people with them) based on nothing but belief. We know that belief impacts the warp without recourse to 'gods'. The Imperium always frames such warp flukes as miracles from God simply because the Imperium always frames everything through the Imperial Creed. Just because people believe something happens through God, doesn't mean it does. The Imperial Creed is provably wrong in other aspects of its metaphysical teachings, why should we believe they're right in this?.


That's why I find it interesting whenever 'miracles' happen around Space Marines. Like the example I used from 'Brothers of the Snake.' Space Marines (for the most part) don't believe that the Emperor is a god...and yet every now and then, some truly unexplainable things happen in the favor of non-psyker, non-believing Space Marines. 





MEQinc said:


> If the Emperor was omniscient, would he not intervene in areas of import? Your statement about his intervening in the affairs of 'important people' flies in the face of his lack of involvement in the 13th Black Crusade, arguably the most important event in modern 40k.


I get the feeling you didn't read all of what I said. I made it pretty clear that faith doesn't always equal protection, and that strangely Saints seem to not exist where they're most needed at times. That was why I suggested that, if they are in fact imbued by the Emperor, that he can't do it all the time. 

Maybe omniscience was the wrong word anyway. We know that he had a pretty solid idea of what the future was while he was still alive. What exactly is going through his head now is anyone's guess. 




MEQinc said:


> Basically yes. The Saint 'gene' is the psyker 'gene'. The reason only certain people can manifest miracles is because only certain people can draw the power from the warp necessary to create those miracles, and even fewer can escape notice long enough to not be collared as a psyker.


Here is where I take issue. I challenge you to produce any evidence in the fluff to show that the miracles performed by Saints or their like are psychic powers in the same vein as, say, a Librarian or sanctioned psyker. The fluff is absolute on what most psykers are like; open doorways for Chaos, a danger to everyone unless properly trained, etc. The powers wielded by saints, and the pro-Imperial miracles that occur, sound very different from the way psychic powers are used. Look at Euphrati Keeler. Look at Saint Sabbat. Look at the Sisters of Battle. 

Now, again, this can be confusing due to verbiage. In 40k, the only supernatural power source that exists is the Warp. Anything that bends the laws of physics (that isn't Necron science :laugh has to come from there. So I suppose in that sense, yes, these are all psychic abilities. That said, it seems to be a very different type of psychic ability then what we commonly mean when we refer to 'psykers.'


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Faith is not an emotion, but hope is. There are billions of Imperial Citizens and each one will believe (for the most part) that "The Emperor protects". I find it difficult to believe that level of energy does nothing to the make up of the warp.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Good point, where the hell goes the feelings of Emperor as savior and such if not ending up at the Emperor himself? Then it's surely concentrated somewhere in the warp so the Saints can emerge. 

I mean I just can't understand how people can believe things are so much more powerful than Emppy without the whole IOM just collapsing right away and no not with fighting glory like now, but with a wimper as the Imperial forces are at a technological and numerical disadvantage at every turn and corner. But then again I view the IOM as ala Germany anno 1916 or the Confederacy anno 1863. Hope is there but draining fast.

And in my book faith is an emotion because it's the basic belief in something grander than yourself.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> And in my book faith is an emotion because it's the basic belief in something grander than yourself.


I apologise for going off topic fellow Heresy lovers but I feel like we need to clear this one up.

Beavis...Your book aside, faith is not an emotion. Happy, sad, angry, upset, grumpy (insert seven dwarfs here) are emotions, they describe how you feel. You do not feel faith, you can have an emotion from having faith in something. 

For example an Imperial Citizen might be happy because his faith lets him believe the Big E is looking after him. However when someone asks him "how are you feeling today" (i.e. what is your current emotion) he does not answer, "Oh I am feeling faith today". It's like the weather being nice, you don't describe your emotion as sunny, but it could be your reason for being happy.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Basic belief in something. Do you believe in God yes or no. Faith can sometimes just be that, like when I'm confident my car will start. I don't feel happy then, nor sad, I certainly don't feel fear then since my car is a 2005 model. When you turn on your stove you feel sure it will cook your food, you don't feel anything but you are certain it will work. Last I checked that was the feeling of belief.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> And who the hell COTE is escapes me, but I haven't been there this long.


COTE is Child of The Emperor - He gives the impression of having a masters degree in warp science and chaos studies :grin:


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Back to the OP, Imperial Saints were manifesting at the dawn of the Heresy, before the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne.

On one hand, this could give credence to the whole Emperor as God in the Warp, as a power manifesting out of time. Who knows, perhaps the Emperor will eventually ascend to actual godhood, but it would occur in a dimension not of the material plane and not in the Warp... this would be a convenient explanation why the power the Emperor manifests through his Saints is so effective against Warp-fueled creatures.

On the other hand, I think this could be an issue of poor Heresy timeline management at BL (ya' think?!), which has confused the timing of the Emperor being shackled to the Golden Throne. In this case, he's always had a part of him that watches over his subjects and fueled the Imperial Tarot (not just the Saints), meaning he's still in his freakishly powerful human mode with multiple personalities, but not a god.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

People seems to have missed what I posted earlier. So heres a repost:

Regarding the God Emperor empowering the faithful, its all Lorgar to blame for it I strongly believe.

We know he was quite active spreading his little cult during the Great Crusade, which spread like a wildfire thanks to his supreme penmanship swaying any that read the Lectitio Diviniatus to the nascent imperial cult. Imagine it, a wast spidery web of faith spreading through the imperium and channeling it towards terra.

Lorgar's supreme faith, zeal and devotion directing and leading the growing worship of his idealized image of his divine father. The God Emperor. And all that faith coallescencing together in the warp began to give birth to a new warp entity, still an infant, but able to aid those most strongly attuned to it such as Euphrati Keeler.

But where Lorgar erred, was to believe the living Emperor to be the physical representation of his god. His whole world view shattered and cracked when his god rebuked him and turned away from him, never realizing that the God Emperor he had unwittingly created in the warp was not analogous with the living Emperor on Terra.

Then I speculate that the nascent God Emperor entity was responsible for weakening, if not outright incapacitating the living Emperor so that he no longer could interfere with its growth as a major warp power. Reduced to a silent husk entombed on the Golden Throne of Terra. Well knowing of his anti religious sentiments that soon would be utterly forgotten as the Imperial Cult sunk its roots into the once secular imperium. And now wholly a part of the Great Game between the powers of the warp.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Empy can empower the Saints as no other explanation really makes sense. Same with him not being a god, why did he embrace it then if he knew it solved nothing? (he was active during the Reign of Blood even embracing the Sisters of Battle) Abstract explanations there are beyond me as I go for the simple route not a complicated route that leaves more questions than it answers, and I have zero patience for loose end if an easier solution is available.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Again who says it was the actual 'living emperor', and not a warp entity created in his name thanks to Lorgar's overzealousness pre heresy?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Again who says it was the actual 'living emperor', and not a warp entity created in his name thanks to Lorgar's overzealousness pre heresy?


Ehm huh?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Faith is not an emotion, but hope is. There are billions of Imperial Citizens and each one will believe (for the most part) that "The Emperor protects". I find it difficult to believe that level of energy does nothing to the make up of the warp.


Hope is in the domain of Tzeentch. 



Brother Lucian said:


> Then I speculate that the nascent God Emperor entity was responsible for weakening, if not outright incapacitating the living Emperor so that he no longer could interfere with its growth as a major warp power. Reduced to a silent husk entombed on the Golden Throne of Terra. Well knowing of his anti religious sentiments that soon would be utterly forgotten as the Imperial Cult sunk its roots into the once secular imperium. And now wholly a part of the Great Game between the powers of the warp.


Assuming such a being exists, it will still be nowhere near the same level as even the broken gods of the eldar which were formed across hundreds of millions of years. It is possible that this entity is responsible for the manifestations of the Living Saints, but it's a bit naive to think it could affect the Great Game in any notable way at this early stage in its existence. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Abstract explanations there are beyond me as I go for the simple route not a complicated route that leaves more questions than it answers, and I have zero patience for loose end if an easier solution is available.


Then you'll miss a lot of answers and frustrate yourself. Discussing possibilities and gaps is what this section of the forum is about.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Depends on how you see it Serpion. What you call an answer is maybe what I will call a ludicrous idea of speculation. The kicker is that for every loose end you leave the hard facts and enters into the realm of fanfiction.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Depends on how you see it Serpion. What you call an answer is maybe what I will call a ludicrous idea of speculation. The kicker is that for every loose end you leave the hard facts and enters into the realm of fanfiction.


These topics are deliberately left open by the writers with the idea of speculation in mind. You're claiming your theories are truth when in some cases the written lore points elsewhere. You're claiming the emperor is ascending when all the lore we have points to him dying. And then you claim my ideas are ludicrous when all I'm doing is speculating and stating what we know? 

:wink:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Have you even bothered to read my posts? I'm claiming the point is entirely open. I don't deny he is dying, I don't deny he is ascending, either one could be the case. I'm denying more stretching things like that he is not a god. That faith in him is not fueling him. But for me he was as mighty as every god ever fluffed out put together and then some. Again it's a point of view-thingy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Okay, there are a lot of points to address here. The main thread of the debate seems to be an extension of the original question. Does the Emperor draw power from faith/worship? Does faith/worship (without their attached emotions) have any effect on the warp? 

(And an honourable mention to _Brother Lucien_ for his theory of the Emperor and the God-Emperor being entirely separate entities.)

But first things first, I have to point out that:


Beaviz81 said:


> He was conscious when entombed on the Golden Throne. That has been pretty much established in fluff from the get-go. And there he endorsed the Imperial Faith in him as the God Emperor.


...that is not true. There is absolutely no suggestion that the Emperor himself endorsed the Imperial Faith whilst being entombed or beforehand. The most accessible lore on this subject comes from the _Collected Visions_, which says:




The Collected Visions page 367 said:


> ...and the Emperor ascended to his Golden Throne once again, this time for eternity. As Malcador was removed the last flicker of life left him. He died and the dust of his corpse blew across the stone floor. At the instant of Malcador's death the Emperor awakened, as if somehow he had been boosted with a powerful salve of medicine. The Emperor, still frail and weak, spoke, 'Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. he reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me a little time to pass final orders to you all. If you do as I ask then I shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less so than I had feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time...
> 
> ...'Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the serpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the safety of mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from out stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance.'
> 
> 'Now all of you go! You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!' The Emperor spoke no more.



There is absolutely no mention of the Imperial Cult or Lectitio Divinitatus.



Beaviz81 said:


> Blind Faith seems to feed Empy


The only thing we can be certain actually feeds the Emperor is the sacrifice of thousands of psykers a day:




The Collected Visions page 370 said:


> The Emperor was trapped on the Golden Throne, it's arcane engineering barely able to keep his physical being from simply rotting away, communicating only through psychic mysteries, a thousand psykers a day sacrificed to keep his spirit charged.



This brings us to the question of whether or not faith/worship can effect the warp in the same manner as emotions or souls do. We know devouring souls can empower gods/psykers/daemons (such as Slaanesh devouring unprotected Eldar souls, and the souls of Chaos worshippers being absorbed by their patrons. The Emperor requiring daily soul-sacrifices to endure. And the attempted ascension of Amnaich the Golden by devouring the souls of his worshippers) just as we know emotions also feed specific gods. There isn't, however, concrete evidence or examples to suggest faith or worship directly empowers gods/psykers/daemons. I don't think we can be certain either way. 



Serpion5 said:


> I'll also say I strongly believe worship can create/feed gods, as this is the method by which the eldar and ork gods came into being.


We obviously don't know that for certain. Personally I think this is a simplistic explanation in regards to The Eldar & Greenskin Pantheons.



Serpion5 said:


> Expanding on that however, I will point out that these eldar gods were formed across millions and millions of years and were still struck down by a single Chaos God.


They were struck down by the Eldar themselves (via the rise of the Dark Muses and the drastic alteration of their psyche) as the Eldar Gods _were_ the collective psyche of the Eldar species. The Pantheon certainly weren't at the peak of their powers and influence when Slaanesh consumed them. But the titanic duels fought in the warp between Slaanesh, Khaine, Asuryan and the others was merely a reflection in the warp of the Eldar psyche. That's how I see it anyway.



MEQinc said:


> I think of them more as a shaman or similarly primitive psyker. They channel warp energy without really intending to or understanding how.
> 
> Now, it is possible that the Emperor is acting through these Saints, in a manner that would be most similar to possession, but I think that unlikely. The Emperor has a lot on his plate, and has for a very long time, and his power is waning.


I generally agree with this sentiment. It is not improbable for the Emperor to be directly empowering Saints, but I think it's more a case of unintended consequences of unshakeable faith and access to the warp.



zerachiel76 said:


> Going back to the original question and linking it to some of the points raised - even though the Emperor denied being a god and suppressed all religions, it may be that subsequent to his internment on the golden throne, his spirit form has evolved as a result of 10k years of psyker soul absorption and he now has the ability to benefit from worship in a way he didn't have while he was truly alive. (Again just a theory).





MEQinc said:


> My question would then be: How? Can souls 'evolve' in the manner you suggest, we've seen nothing to suggest that they can. We've seen nothing to suggest that things can 'ascend' to the level of the Chaos Gods, or at least to a state similar to theirs.


I agree with _MEQ_ here. The Emperor is a man (or perhaps a perpetual). A uniquely powerful man, but a man nonetheless. By all accounts he has not grown more powerful since his ascension to the Golden Throne, but actually weaker (what is left of him experiences constant agony, the required number of soul sacrifices has increased four-fold over the millennia, the Astronomican and the Throne itself are beginning to fail etc). How exactly is a mortal soul supposed to become a god? If all this faith and worship was empowering him wouldn't his powers be getting getting stronger, not weaker?

(And again we are going back to whether or not faith and worship actually empower gods/psykers/daemons) 



Beaviz81 said:


> And in my book faith is an emotion because it's the basic belief in something grander than yourself.


Faith itself is *not* an emotion. Having a strong faith can cause emotional responses (hope, love, hate) but faith in and of itself is not an emotion.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Back to the OP, Imperial Saints were manifesting at the dawn of the Heresy, before the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne.


So around the same time the Lectitio Divinitatus was being spread? Coincidence? :wink:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

This explanation of yours leads to too many questions. I prefer things simple answers without wild speculation. As where does the Saints get the power from without Empy? He says he still can perform miracles but not in the physical form, and he does perform miracles still. And what is the point of worshiping Empy if he don't get anything from it? I mean he certainly is aware if stuff going on. He endorsed the Sister of Battle and if anyone is a fanatic it's them. What happens inbetween? Who gets to feed on the faith in the Emperor if not him? What powers the Saints? And why is that church established and not just rooted out since you guys are telling me he is not a god?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> This explanation of yours leads to too many questions. I prefer things simple answers without wild speculation. As where does the Saints get the power from without Empy?


Preferring simple answers is no reason to simply dismiss more complex or outlandish ones. This is the root of why you're arguing your points and it simply makes it too difficult (and utterly pointless) to try convince you otherwise. 



Beaviz81 said:


> He says he still can perform miracles but not in the physical form, and he does perform miracles still.


Where? Source?



Beaviz81 said:


> And what is the point of worshiping Empy if he don't get anything from it?


There doesn't NEED to be a point, it just became an adopted part of Imperial tradition and culture somewhere during the Imperium's history. It's supposed to represent how backwards and regressive the Imperium has become, anything more than this is the realm of speculation, do you understand?



Beaviz81 said:


> I mean he certainly is aware if stuff going on. He endorsed the Sister of Battle and if anyone is a fanatic it's them. What happens inbetween? Who gets to feed on the faith in the Emperor if not him?


Faith is NOT confirmed to FEED any gods. I put forth the theory that faith can create and feed gods (speculating with the eldar for example) but this is theory not canon, and as COTE just showed there are easy points that can be made against it depending on how you interpret the fluff. So to answer this, Faith in the Emperor may simply feed nothing at all. 



Beaviz81 said:


> What powers the Saints? And why is that church established and not just rooted out since you guys are telling me he is not a god?


We don't know what powers the saints, and as i said above the church endures because it is too deeply engrained in Imperial culture to simply be rooted out. The Emperor's true words and vision are a distant memory at this stage and he is not in a position to change things. As far as the High Lords and the Inquisition are concerned, their job is to protect the status quo until such time as the Emperor himself tells them otherwise. You can guess that hasn't happened for a while, and many things he said have been forgotten in the meantime. 

Keep in mind, the scriptures of the Imperial faith were not written by the Emperor, they were written by a fanatical zealot who believed against all denial that the Emperor was a god. Nobody in modern 40k would question such a relic, to them it may as well have come from the Emperor himself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

As Serp said above.



Beaviz81 said:


> This explanation of yours leads to too many questions. I prefer things simple answers without wild speculation. As where does the Saints get the power from without Empy?


The warp?



Beaviz81 said:


> And what is the point of worshiping Empy if he don't get anything from it?


People worship the Emperor because they believe he is the God-Emperor, the saviour of humanity and that he protects them. But that doesn't mean such faith has a positive effect on the Emperor himself.



Beaviz81 said:


> Who gets to feed on the faith in the Emperor if not him?


Perhaps no one. It all depends on what effect faith directly has on the warp (which we don't know). Faith can produce particular emotions such as hope (which empowers Tzeentch), love (which empowers Slaanesh), hatred (which empowers Khorne) etc.



Beaviz81 said:


> And why is that church established and not just rooted out since you guys are telling me he is not a god?


These are all really simple concepts and are not difficult to comprehend. The Imperial Cult/Ecclesiarchy can still exist if the Emperor is not a god. In fact they could still exist even if the Emperor never existed himself, they are a human (read: fallible) construct. Are you seriously suggesting that faiths/churches can only be established if their god/faith is categorically real/true? It's not all that different to the concept of the Imperial Truth actually being a lie during the Great Crusade.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You asked for proof here it is.

Now, his will is interpreted and executed by the High Lords of Terra, his worship is regulated by the Ecclesiarchy, his law enforced by the Adeptus Arbites, his form guarded by the Adeptus Custodes, and his people protected from the horrors of the galaxy and from even themselves by the Inquisition. The Emperor is confined within the Golden Throne, vast biomechanical machinery forming the great Sanctum Imperialis, located deep within the continent-spanning complex on Terra known as the Imperial Palace. There the Emperor's physical form is sustained by carefully maintained machinery. Physically, the enthroned Emperor of Mankind is a ravaged corpse. The last surviving cells in his shattered body are sustained by the Golden Throne, providing an anchor for the Emperor's spirit, which extends across the entire Imperium. While his body is sustained, his will endures. His existence is said to be an unending torment, with his every thought enslaved to the task of ruling, guiding and protecting his race. Ultimately it is only his will to endure that allows him to survive, as he knows his death would lead to the destruction of the Imperium and leave mankind without the guidance it needs to survive.

That's from the rogue Trader the first thingy.

Only through his power can the Astronomican beam its guiding light, allowing Imperial ships to navigate the Warp in relative safety. The Emperor is not just a beacon for space travel, however, but is said to continue to guide humanity through his Tarot, and through dreams and visions given to selected individuals. It is also popularly believed that he created the warp storm known as the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath during the Age of Apostasy, and that the Emperor's will holds Chaos at bay. Were it not for his unceasing struggle, the Chaos of the Warp would flood the material realm with madness and horror, causing untold destruction.

Fifth edition 40k.-rulebook.

In addition to these already profound powers, the Emperor is capable of stopping time for undetermined lengths and guiding his servants through manipulation of his Tarot and sheer influence.

From The Inquisition War.

Hope that's proof enough.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> I guess the question then would be how exactly one defines what a god is.


I choose to go by comparing them to the Gods that exist in 40k, ie. the Ruinous Powers, the Eldar pantheon and Gork & Mork. The Emperor isn't like any of these beings.



> I get the feeling you didn't read all of what I said. I made it pretty clear that faith doesn't always equal protection, and that strangely Saints seem to not exist where they're most needed at times. That was why I suggested that, if they are in fact imbued by the Emperor, that he can't do it all the time.


No I read that part, and I basically agree. However that line of thinking also directly contradicts the idea of the Emperor being omniscient. 



> Here is where I take issue. I challenge you to produce any evidence in the fluff to show that the miracles performed by Saints or their like are psychic powers in the same vein as, say, a Librarian or sanctioned psyker. The fluff is absolute on what most psykers are like; open doorways for Chaos, a danger to everyone unless properly trained, etc.


The 'miracles' I have seen preformed seem to be very, very similar to warp powers in their nature and creation. The primary difference is that the person doesn't understand what they're doing. However fluff about untrained psykers shows that they too are capable of manifesting powers without conscious awareness of what they're doing. And while we are repeatedly told that psykers are doorways for daemons we are also repeated shown that untrained psykers are not automatically doomed to possession. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Basic belief in something. Do you believe in God yes or no. Faith can sometimes just be that, like when I'm confident my car will start. I don't feel happy then, nor sad, I certainly don't feel fear then since my car is a 2005 model. When you turn on your stove you feel sure it will cook your food, you don't feel anything but you are certain it will work. Last I checked that was the feeling of belief.


Belief is a thought process. Thought processes are not emotions. You may believe that your car will start but that is you mind creating a thought process whereby your car starting is the most logical outcome of your actions. If you car then does start you may feel happy and if it doesn't you may well feel sad. You have faith *in *something, you don't have happy in something (that doesn't even make sense). Faith can make you feel happy, or hopeful or whatever but faith itself is *not those feelings*. 

If you can't understand this then there's really no point in debating this anymore since there's such a fundamental divide between our positions.



Beaviz81 said:


> Empy can empower the Saints as no other explanation really makes sense.


No other explanation makes sense to you. But your explanation doesn't make sense to me.



> Abstract explanations there are beyond me as I go for the simple route not a complicated route that leaves more questions than it answers, and I have zero patience for loose end if an easier solution is available.


The simpler explanation is often (though not always) the best one. I guess you haven't noticed then that my explanation is simpler? It requires saints to be untrained psykers, something we know exist. Yours requires a) the Emperor being a god, or being otherwise capable of sending power through others, something we have no direct evidence for and b) being willing to send power to a random assortment of not particularly powerful people, something that doesn't make much logical sense. 



Beaviz81 said:


> But for me he was as mighty as every god ever fluffed out put together and then some. Again it's a point of view-thingy.


He is very, very clearly not the most powerful God in 40k. That your argument boils down to: "this is what I *want* to be true", without evidence to support it basically makes this debate pointless.



Beaviz81 said:


> You asked for proof here it is.


I don't see any proof of the Emperor being a god here. And I most certainly don't see any evidence of Saints being divinely powered.



> Now, his will is interpreted and executed by the High Lords of Terra, his worship is regulated by the Ecclesiarchy, his law enforced by the Adeptus Arbites, his form guarded by the Adeptus Custodes, and his people protected from the horrors of the galaxy and from even themselves by the Inquisition.


Note there that the Emperor isn't doing anything himself, his empire is entirely run by humans who have never met or spoken with him.



> The Emperor is not just a beacon for space travel, however, but is *said* to continue to guide humanity through his Tarot, and through dreams and visions given to selected individuals. It is also *popularly believed* that he created the warp storm known as the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath during the Age of Apostasy, and that the Emperor's will holds Chaos at bay.


Emphasis mine. Note how none of these things are actually stated as being done by the Emperor, they are merely reported as the beliefs of the ignorant masses of the Imperium. Other sections are stated as fact but this section isn't, the only logical reason to include such qualifiers is to indicate that the statements made are not factual.



> From The Inquisition War.


Inquisition War fluff is outdated, possibly retconed and often ridiculous. The powers mentioned in this book have never even been referenced elsewhere and are powerful enough to make the Imperium's situation bizarrely incongruous.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I don't think we have anything more to discuss, our viewpoints are so contrary to eachother that we can't make sense of anything and instead the arguments flies past eachother, and this discussion is not the first where that has happened MEQ so I think I will give you a rather wide berth from now on.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

First of all thanks to all those who've provided their thoughts and theories on this.

I'm now leaning towards the possibility that the Saints get their power from the warp. Do they use the untainted warp (if there is such a thing)?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I'm now leaning towards the possibility that the Saints get their power from the warp. Do they use the untainted warp (if there is such a thing)?


Assuming that by untainted you mean completely untouched by Chaos, then no. The Chaos Gods and the warp are basically synonymous. That's not to say that there are areas that are basically beyond their control, indeed it's likely that most of the warp is beyond their control. That'd be the area that the saints, and almost all psykers, draw from I think.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

It could be argued that the Emperor is able to access the untainted pure warp, and not the part fouled by the emergence of the chaotic powers. So to say that he somehow is a filter or lens for purifying the warp. By their faith and belief, drawing on the 'God Emperor', the saints reach into the energies of the pure warp. Something which is absolutely anathema to the chaotic powers. But that he is not himself the actual source of it, he is just a medium to make it possible thanks to their faith and belief.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> You asked for proof here it is.
> 
> Now, his will is interpreted and executed by the High Lords of Terra, his worship is regulated by the Ecclesiarchy, his law enforced by the Adeptus Arbites, his form guarded by the Adeptus Custodes, and his people protected from the horrors of the galaxy and from even themselves by the Inquisition. The Emperor is confined within the Golden Throne, vast biomechanical machinery forming the great Sanctum Imperialis, located deep within the continent-spanning complex on Terra known as the Imperial Palace. There the Emperor's physical form is sustained by carefully maintained machinery. Physically, the enthroned Emperor of Mankind is a ravaged corpse. The last surviving cells in his shattered body are sustained by the Golden Throne, providing an anchor for the Emperor's spirit, which extends across the entire Imperium. While his body is sustained, his will endures. His existence is said to be an unending torment, with his every thought enslaved to the task of ruling, guiding and protecting his race. Ultimately it is only his will to endure that allows him to survive, as he knows his death would lead to the destruction of the Imperium and leave mankind without the guidance it needs to survive.
> 
> ...


Is that meant to be proof that the Emperor is a god?

If so... yeah, it's not.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

I think their faith gives them power, their unyielding and unshakeable belief gives them some control of the warps energies, i also believe their faith forms a link of sorts with the Emperor, which he uses to propagate his plans.

In the case of Justicar Anval Thawn, it seems quite clear that the Emperor has marked certain people, seemingly from birth or early childhood as his servants, and granted them immense power.

also COTE, is it possible that Emperor is indeed getting stronger, but the burdens are getting greater, and then mixed with the fact his grip on life (As his life support mechanism is failing) is getting more tenuous, therefore he is getting stronger, but has to cede more and more power just to maintain himself and the link his soul has to realspace (as well as do the countless other jobs)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Here it is stated that Empy is a god.

The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race. He has sat immobile within the Golden Throne of Terra for ten thousand years. Although once a living man, his shattered body can no longer support life, and remains intact only by a combination of ancient technology and the sheer force of his will, itself sustained by the soul-sacrifice of countless millions of psykers.

From Rogue Trader. A part of the very foundation of the game.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Here it is stated that Empy is a god.
> 
> The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race. He has sat immobile within the Golden Throne of Terra for ten thousand years. Although once a living man, his shattered body can no longer support life, and remains intact only by a combination of ancient technology and the sheer force of his will, itself sustained by the soul-sacrifice of countless millions of psykers.
> 
> From Rogue Trader. A part of the very foundation of the game.


I am actually completely baffled by your logic. Do we have a new Lux?

He is a god in the context that humanity _believe_ he is a god, that is what that quote from Rogue Trader is referring to. But just because humanity believe he is a god, doesn't actually make him a god. I would have assumed that was obvious.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I am actually completely baffled by your logic. Do we have a new Lux?
> 
> He is a god in the context that humanity _believe_ he is a god, that is what that quote from Rogue Trader is referring to. But just because humanity believe he is a god, doesn't actually make him a god. I would have assumed that was obvious.


That's your opinion, but I'm not surprised you take that ludicrous approach.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> That's your opinion, but I'm not surprised you take that ludicrous approach.


It's not a ludicrous approach. The whole Heresy started because the Emperor REFUSED to be seen as a God. Don't you see how ridiculous and stupid it would look if the Emperor did a 180 and his last words before being interred into the GT was "Sorry, Lorgar was right I am a God. The Heresy was probably my fault. My bad." And have an Imperium opposite of what he wanted which should've been ruled with science, logic & reasoning instead of faith, zeal & ignorance.

I would say the Emperor being a God is the ludicrous opinion.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You know you are going up against fluff now Tyrannus? Fluff established in Rogue Trader?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Note that that quote also calls him the Father of humanity. Does that mean that the Emperor is the literal baby-daddy of all mankind, or does it mean that people view as a 'father' in the same way that they view him as a 'god'. Public belief is not fact.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You know you are going up against fluff now Tyrannus? Fluff established in Rogue Trader?


I am quoting fluff established in the HH novels. Have you even read any of the books?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You might have your interpretation of it, but it's just that. But that has settled the matters, as I'm tired of you lot anyway.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You might have your interpretation of it, but it's just that. But that has settled the matters, as I'm tired of you lot anyway.


And you have yours (which most people disagree with). And nothing is settled. A quote doesn't automatically trump other established fluff.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> From Rogue Trader. A part of the very foundation of the game.


You realize a lot of fluff has changed since then right? Even if it was intended that he be seen as a god back then, the more recent fluff presents much the opposite. We even have the part of the Horus Heresy expanded upon that explains how the whole misconception began. One old quote cannot overrule a multitude of more recent ones. Especially since with Gw the most recent lore always trumps the older. That's how gw handles retcons.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Completely off the mark, Beaviz. I strongly advise to re-read the Horus Heresy series. the Big E is not a god. Mythology and 10.000 years passing have made him into one in the public eye, but it doesnt actually mean he is one. And he went on the whole anti god tangent and pushed for a secular imperium. Read The Last Church for his own words.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

This thread is slowly making me lose faith in humanity, and I teach kids so that's saying something.



Beaviz81 said:


> That's your opinion, but I'm not surprised you take that ludicrous approach.


No, that is not my opinion. It is a cold, hard fact. Just because humanity believes he is a god, doesn't mean he actually is a god. 

And why are you not surprised that I take a "ludicrous approach"?



Tyrannus said:


> A quote doesn't automatically trump other established fluff.


The quote actually supports our position anyway, whilst he thinks it supports his. :headbutt:



Serpion5 said:


> You realize a lot of fluff has changed since then right? Even if it was intended that he be seen as a god back then, the more recent fluff presents much the opposite. We even have the part of the Horus Heresy expanded upon that explains how the whole misconception began. One old quote cannot overrule a multitude of more recent ones. Especially since with Gw the most recent lore always trumps the older. That's how gw handles retcons.


I was around back then _Serp_, the Emperor's godhood has never really changed in the lore. The Imperium always held him to be one, but we have never been sure if he actually is one (the term is obviously ambiguous anyway).


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Assuming that by untainted you mean completely untouched by Chaos, then no. The Chaos Gods and the warp are basically synonymous. That's not to say that there are areas that are basically beyond their control, indeed it's likely that most of the warp is beyond their control. That'd be the area that the saints, and almost all psykers, draw from I think.


Wow, I didn't think I'd start this row er I mean heated discussion. :grin: 

Thanks MEQ, that was the answer I was hoping for as it closest resembles my best guess. So I guess that Imperial Saints, the Grey Knights, sanctioned Imperial Psykers, Space Marine Librarians and Inquisitors all tap into the areas of the warp beyond the chaos gods control and which are while not completely free of their touch, are only tainted a small amount.

Do we know whether there is any info regarding certain areas are more tainted than others? The initial impression we get is that the EOT and the Maelstrom are utterly corrupted but is this necessarily the case? Are these areas simply areas where the warp and material world overlap? I suppose if I was a chaos stratetcision (spelling??) I would attempt to keep these areas corrupted to allow daemons to manifest more easily here? (Might have this wrong)


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I think its pretty unclear, but the fluff states that the warp was much calmer and purer in the ancient times of the Old Ones. It was their rampant creation of new races in a desperate bid to contain the Necron threat that led to the growing murkiness and taint of the warp, and eventually to their fall.

The eldar gods also had a much closer relationship with their physical kin in the first days. And if going by the older fluff for the Emperor. The original shamans whom was able to reincarnate in the pure warp and return to the materium, found it imperilled by the growing influence of the chaos gods as they started to wake.

So Id imagine that the deepest oldest layers of the warp might be where the purest core is, but nearly completely hidden and smothered by the corrupt influence of the dark gods feasting on all the emotions of the warring races. But those few able to use the Emperor as a conduit to the oldest parts of the warp can draw out the pure energy that is the anathema to the chaos gods.

Edit: Thought. The old eldar empire was centered in what which is now the Eye of Terror before their fall. We know they were masters of psychic engineering. Whos not to say that there is such an abundance of warp 'ley lines' in that area of space, lots of strong energy to draw on for a lack of better word, and why they settled there. And with their fall the chaos gods did theirs to feast on the wellspring and turning it for their own use. But perhaps there might be something left if diving deeply enough into the eye I wonder.


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