# TK Chariots and building an army around them



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

So with 8th maturing into a reasonable system over time I've decided to grab a small TK force.

The main thing I want is a huge block of Chariots led by a King - that isn't going to change (I'm aware of the weaknesses). Here are my questions:

- Is the Death mask actually good? I thought that a unit that relies on breaking an enemy quickly would love to minimise the effects of steadfast by removing the generals Ld and the reroll from the BSB, so I've given it to my King. This makes it much more likely that I will break something on the charge with Terror (Ld 6-8 instead of 7-10 w/ reroll), and with impact hits and +1A for Steeds and Crew, I'll hopefully sometimes kill enough to get rid of steadfast as well - if I can keep 3 ranks alive long enough to hit.

- How many Chariots would you run in a block? I'm thinking 8 + King at minimum, with 11 + King being better.

- What units would you take in support/flank guard? Horsemen are bad and infantry are slow, which would indicate Necropolis Knights, Necrosphinx, Carrion and Scorpions are the way to go? Is that right?

- The Priest problem. Initially in small games I'll have him by himself with the cloak of dunes hiding like hell behind the chariot block, but in larger games I should probably put him somewhere safer - maybe horsemen? How many Horsemen do you think is a decent meatshield?

- Are static things like Casket + Catapults workable in such an in-your-face army, or would they be left behind, isolated and easily destroyed? How about leaving a Scorpion bodyguard behind to deal with Machine-Hunter units?

- Any advice for Magic items? I'm starting at ~1200, this is what I have so far for a doubles tournament I am entering (I'm the hammer, he's the anvil):

Lord on Chariot with Great Weapon, Shield, Death Mask and Ironcurse Icon
299pts
Level 2 with Cloak of Dunes
155pts
11 Chariots with Command and Banner of +1 Movement
650pts
Scorpion
85pts

What could be added to bring it to the 1500pt and above level?

Any help is appreciated! Has anyone played/seen played an army similar to this concept?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I can't help - but 'meatshield' is definitely NOT the right term...:grin:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Well in my mind I think of it as "Bone shield" from Diablo 2 - not so much individual Horsemen as just swirling blobs of white that slowly die off to stop the squishy squishy caster from being munched by hordes of angry Demonkin... :laugh:


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I recently ran a local tourney where someone ran units of archer core and chariots to fill out the core requirement. You need the archer blocks for the shooting and to protect the heiro. He mixed in two warshrinxes and one necrosphinx. Another effective strategy is necroknights with the special character necrotect that givens one unit the ability to re-roll armour saves. 

The casket and catapults are worth playing if you run the archer blocks.


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## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

Sethis said:


> Lord on Chariot with Great Weapon, Shield, Death Mask and Ironcurse Icon
> 299pts
> 11 Chariots with Command and Banner of +1 Movement
> 650pts


That's one hell of a unit - nearly two-thirds of your entire 1500 point army.

Personally I'd be tempted to experiment with the size of that unit - maybe you'd find that running 8+king and another unit of 3 separately would work out better? Only way to know is to try it each way in a few games.

In terms of what else to put into the army to make it 1500 points, I think you really need something that will distract the enemy from your chariots. A necropshinx or warsphinx is the obvious choice, and I think they'd be more intimidating than necropolis knights, etc, and so more useful for taking attention away from your King's unit of chariots.

One advantage of the Necrosphinx is that the decapitating strike rule will be particularly helpful against the sorts of big monsters that will be a particular threat to your chariots (such as Arachnarok spiders, Stonehorns, etc)

Will you be using the Scorpion to go after enemy war machines?


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

The other benefit of the Necrosphinx is that it flies so can keep pace easier with your chariots to get a nice tasty flanking charge.

Caskets are amazing and I find that they eaily pay for themselves by taking out warmachines/warmachine hunters ect

I love my Tomb Scorpions, take 2 because if you're anything like me one will ALWAYS die in a mishap


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

olderplayer said:


> You need the archer blocks for the shooting and to protect the heiro. He mixed in two warshrinxes and one necrosphinx. Another effective strategy is necroknights with the special character necrotect that givens one unit the ability to re-roll armour saves.
> 
> The casket and catapults are worth playing if you run the archer blocks.


I'm not a fan of Archer blocks, despite hitting on 5s all the time because 30 archers cause ~3 casualties on T3 on infantry with a 5+ save, which seems incredibly ineffecient. I'd rather have the Catapults/Caskets. I'm not sure about the Necrotect + Knights combo because it eats a lot of points in another single unit, and the Necrotect would need a melee infantry unit to stand in, eating even more points.



misfratz said:


> That's one hell of a unit - nearly two-thirds of your entire 1500 point army.


Well I'm trying to gather it in time to play in a 1200pt doubles tourney, so we have my army plus another army which is hopefully going to be infantry blocks + Warmachines such as Empire or Skaven. That way we have a reasonably balanced 2400pt force.



misfratz said:


> Personally I'd be tempted to experiment with the size of that unit - maybe you'd find that running 8+king and another unit of 3 separately would work out better? Only way to know is to try it each way in a few games.


The only thing is that once I take some casualties I lose the ability to break even 1 rank of steadfast, and lose the added Strength on my Impact hits. I also can't go up to a front rank of 4 if needed vs Horde units. I appreciate it's a huge deathstar thing for sub-2000pts but eventually I want to reach ~2200 so it's a decent starting point. My problem is what to add to it to get it there!



misfratz said:


> In terms of what else to put into the army to make it 1500 points, I think you really need something that will distract the enemy from your chariots. A necropshinx or warsphinx is the obvious choice, and I think they'd be more intimidating than necropolis knights, etc, and so more useful for taking attention away from your King's unit of chariots.
> 
> One advantage of the Necrosphinx is that the decapitating strike rule will be particularly helpful against the sorts of big monsters that will be a particular threat to your chariots (such as Arachnarok spiders, Stonehorns, etc)


I was thinking of that myself. I like the synergy between the Warsphinx and Righteous Smiting, but it's too slow to keep up with movement 9 chariots. Flying seems to be the way to go. The Decapitating strike is a nice little trick, but rather unreliable unless I get Cursed Blades off.



misfratz said:


> Will you be using the Scorpion to go after enemy war machines?


Depends on what they have. I'm deffo having more than 1 at higher points levels, and they can do one of three things: Protect my Warmachines, go after enemy Warmachines, or protect the flanks of the Chariot unit from cavalry/skirmishers.



Ratvan said:


> The other benefit of the Necrosphinx is that it flies so can keep pace easier with your chariots to get a nice tasty flanking charge.
> 
> Caskets are amazing and I find that they eaily pay for themselves by taking out warmachines/warmachine hunters ect
> 
> I love my Tomb Scorpions, take 2 because if you're anything like me one will ALWAYS die in a mishap


Pretty much my thinking lol, but I wasn't sure if the Casket on its own would work. I feel it should have at least 1 catapult to keep it company, and some kind of guard unit, but not sure about what/who. The D3 power dice are extremely useful though... And I completely missed the potential for counter-war machine usage, which now that I think about it is bloody amazing - most war machines are out of BSB/General range and are often clumped together. 10.5 is the average dice roll on 3D6, and most machines have 3 crew, so a Ld 7 crew dies on average, and then bounces again... sexy! k:


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

Sethis said:


> I wasn't sure if the Casket on its own would work. I feel it should have at least 1 catapult to keep it company, and some kind of guard unit, but not sure about what/who. The D3 power dice are extremely useful though... And I completely missed the potential for counter-war machine usage, which now that I think about it is bloody amazing - most war machines are out of BSB/General range and are often clumped together. 10.5 is the average dice roll on 3D6, and most machines have 3 crew, so a Ld 7 crew dies on average, and then bounces again... sexy! k:


 I know, I found this by accident, was along the lines of "that Dwarf cannon is pissing me off, let me see how it does against this..... oh t actually worked... nice!"

I usually leave mine by itself, most of the units that will be fighting will be trying to avoid your chariot block or (hopefully) evaporating under the impact hits. I have found that when it has been destoryed it is usually in about turn 5-6 by quite a costly unit that has taken a mauling all game and needed to make some points up. (i'm talking over 300 points to take out a 135 point model which means, to me, that it has still paid for itself. Ok not taken a unit out (VP speaking) but I have 300 points worth left to fight.

Archer blocks aren't 'needed' I have been running both LHP and LP in Horseman (not horse archer) bunkers for a few games now for mobile bunkers, you still have 5+ to hit if you run the horse archers plus they're easier to hide behind chariots/sphinx and can keep everything nicely bunched for smiting (chariots have bows too) and other Lore of Nehekhara buffs. Its not great but its another option rather then static skele archers, your idea of cloak of dunes is a good idea as well, he can keep the sphinx between him and shooting things for cover. I tend to field units of 8 horsemen/archers 5 in the first rank with 3 wound tokens taking up the second rank. Its not as safe as archers, not as dull either

Necrotects are good if you're running construct heavy lists..... yup thats pretty much it really, re rolls are nice but you really need my will be done in the skele block and if you're doing that you really want tomb guard which give you a different balance to the force.

I'm desperately trying to fit in SoUL somewher in the list so that you can regen the chariot units, also add in FULL COMMAND, allocate any challenges to your champion and re-raise him with the Lore of Nehekhara ability for constant TK protection unless your opponant snipes him/allocates all attacks, usually means that you need to run a BSB in a TK army to do this however


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Personally drop Cloak of Dunes for the Kanopi, until you can give take a Hiero Lord, a bodyguard and a 4+ Talisman. If you can adequately shield the Priest behind your allies anvil block, you should be able to remove some buffs, which really play havoc with TK's thanks to the lack of decent armour or toughness. (T4 with a 5+ Save is not good)

Undying legion is a guaranteed Chariot healed each turn if you get the spell off, and a possible 3. If you take as many bound spells as possible to maximise getting it off, (kanopi, hierotitan (especially if you keep it as a further shield between enemy units and your hierophant), caskets, etc) you can make it a damn annoying thorn, as it often takes a fair bit of work to kill 3 Chariots for all but super heavy units (Mournfangs, Blood/Black Knights, Chosen, etc). Obviously, it needs a Herald on Chariot, but that can help keep your King and the Deathmask alive.

FLankers - I prefer Carrion. Flying, 9 S4 Attacks and 6 Wounds for 72 Points? Beautiful. Sure, they crumble, but put them against charge redirectors, or war machines, and you're floating.

The Ironcurse Icon is an Enchanted Item is it not? So is the Deathmask, so you have to choose which one. Obviously, Dragonbane Gem is the other alternate. 

In your doubles, do you allow friendly models to join allied units?

If so, a Necrotect will allow you to really buff your allies unit, if he's got an especially hitty anvil.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Ratvan said:


> I have been running both LHP and LP in Horseman (not horse archer) bunkers for a few games now for mobile bunkers, you still have 5+ to hit if you run the horse archers plus they're easier to hide behind chariots/sphinx and can keep everything nicely bunched for smiting (chariots have bows too) and other Lore of Nehekhara buffs. Its not great but its another option rather then static skele archers, your idea of cloak of dunes is a good idea as well, he can keep the sphinx between him and shooting things for cover. I tend to field units of 8 horsemen/archers 5 in the first rank with 3 wound tokens taking up the second rank. Its not as safe as archers, not as dull either


Why do you run Horsemen instead of Archers? Is it just the saving on points, or do you actually charge things from time to time?



Ratvan said:


> I'm desperately trying to fit in SoUL somewher in the list so that you can regen the chariot units, also add in FULL COMMAND, allocate any challenges to your champion and re-raise him with the Lore of Nehekhara ability for constant TK protection unless your opponant snipes him/allocates all attacks, usually means that you need to run a BSB in a TK army to do this however


Tricks like these are what I need to find out! Obviously the banner is super-tech but I didn't think of having a perma-champ shield for the King... Nice one!



Vaz said:


> Personally drop Cloak of Dunes for the Kanopi, until you can give take a Hiero Lord, a bodyguard and a 4+ Talisman. If you can adequately shield the Priest behind your allies anvil block, you should be able to remove some buffs, which really play havoc with TK's thanks to the lack of decent armour or toughness. (T4 with a 5+ Save is not good)


In my 2k list I put the level 2 on a horse and gave him a scroll, and took a naked level 4 with the Kanopi. The trick in the small list is to keep the Priest within 12" of the Chariots, which might be tricky if he's hiding behind a unit of 40 infantry behind the chariots, if you see what I mean? Flying just seemed like a good solution to that.



Vaz said:


> Undying legion is a guaranteed Chariot healed each turn if you get the spell off, and a possible 3. If you take as many bound spells as possible to maximise getting it off, (kanopi, hierotitan (especially if you keep it as a further shield between enemy units and your hierophant), caskets, etc) you can make it a damn annoying thorn, as it often takes a fair bit of work to kill 3 Chariots for all but super heavy units (Mournfangs, Blood/Black Knights, Chosen, etc). Obviously, it needs a Herald on Chariot, but that can help keep your King and the Deathmask alive.


I took a BSB with it in the 2k list, since it seemed very strong, but can't fit in the small one due to points and the restriction on 1 char and 2 units minimum, otherwise I'd drop the Scorp and a Chariot or two for him for sure.



Vaz said:


> FLankers - I prefer Carrion. Flying, 9 S4 Attacks and 6 Wounds for 72 Points? Beautiful. Sure, they crumble, but put them against charge redirectors, or war machines, and you're floating.


The scorpion does have WS4 and T5, which are not-insignificant jumps, but it does die easier. I may try a unit of each instead of doubling up on one or the other, see which performs better?



Vaz said:


> The Ironcurse Icon is an Enchanted Item is it not? So is the Deathmask, so you have to choose which one. Obviously, Dragonbane Gem is the other alternate.


Damn. Dragonbane or the Helmet I suppose. In higher points levels I don't know whether to give him a magic weapon or just leave him swinging a good old GW, which seems to do the job...



Vaz said:


> In your doubles, do you allow friendly models to join allied units?
> 
> If so, a Necrotect will allow you to really buff your allies unit, if he's got an especially hitty anvil.


I don't know, it says we're using the ally rules from the rulebook with no duplication of magic items or unique units with the exception of BSBs. It says we're not allowed to _deploy_ characters in each others units, but I don't know about once the game has started? I don't really know what the Ally rules from the BRB are...


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

Well 2 things, I do occasionally charge small units of chaff/skirmishers or am just in position to catch something in the flank (I usually have reformed 3 wide to save my caster being in B2B). Plus if you declare a charge against an already fleeing unit, they're forced to take a flee reaction, from my experience I have been in a losing position due to that one unit that stops 1" from the board edge only to rally on turn 6! Well no more I say.

And Helmet on the King and Gem on the LP


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