# New Codex: Chaos Daemons



## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

So, I pre-ordered the Chaos Daemons codex along with 3 obliterators from GW's online store.
Got the box today.
It had everything in it... including the Chaos Daemons codex.
I didn't think pre-ordering codexes got them too you this early.
I mean I called GW yesterday to ask when to expect the new codex and the representative told me May 10th at the earliest.
Was this just a happy mistake, does GW release its new codexes early to those who pre-order them or does the fact that I've ordered a couple hundred dollars from them online in the past few months affect it all...???

Just wondering.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I've heard repeatedly that GW has always managed to ship codexes before the official release. So enjoy it!


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Absolute035 said:


> I've heard repeatedly that GW has always managed to ship codexes before the official release. So enjoy it!


Ah, that explains it.

Now, I'm not going to post a spoiler here or anything... but my impression of this new codex is that of extreme disappointment. The lack of allies options and especially the manner in which the army is deployed just killed my interest in it.
I believe that I just wasted $22.50 :cray:


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Changer of Ways said:


> Ah, that explains it.
> 
> Now, I'm not going to post a spoiler here or anything... but my impression of this new codex is that of extreme disappointment. The lack of allies options and especially the manner in which the army is deployed just killed my interest in it.
> I believe that I just wasted $22.50 :cray:


Well most people are disappointed with the 5th edition books in general, as they are overall a dumbing down of each respective army, with less customization options, no armory, etc. They allow each army less restrictions -- more versatility, but simultaneously there is less specialization, and fewer incentives for it and theme. I play Eldar and Chaos in the works so I really see how fluff was lost...

But anyway, Daemons is an entirely new playable faction of 40K, that's pretty interesting. By all means, post spoilers -- correct me if i'm wrong but I believe spoilers are allowed, as I've already read a ton of spoilers on various threads here, I believe its OK so long as you do not include entire statlines.

If you want to give us more of an in-depth review, what exactly makes you feel that it is 22.50$ down the drain?


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

the only thing that i know sucks about the daemon codex is that it is forbidden to ally CSM and Daemons together. they are seperate armies and cannot be allied (unless its an apocalypse game).


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Absolute035 said:


> If you want to give us more of an in-depth review, what exactly makes you feel that it is 22.50$ down the drain?


Felt like chiming in with my own personal thoughts. I got my preorder in and have had some time to digest the Codex a little bit, but many things are still theories at best. Working on the Tactica as it grows, but I figure a quick review of the Codex is warranted…

What I liked… 
1.	The Daemon rules are quite comprehensive and uniquely powerful. Everything has an Inv save, is Immune to Instant Death and is Fearless. You never have to concern yourself with high Str weaponry like others do or morale. Low AP weapons aren’t a problem.
2.	Special greater demons. Not only can you have 2 greater demons in your army, you could have two specialized greater demons with their own rules. The Bloodthirster is back in glory, as is the rather remarkable Keep of Secrets (I-10, hellooo!).
3.	There are no psychic powers. With the existence of rather broken Anti-Psyker gear, it’s refreshing that you never have to worry about a single hood messing up your day. No perils of the warp, consider you are warp creatures anyway. “Gee, I’m going to reach into my own home and smack myself for calling upon powers I already possess…”
4.	Unique powers. The Book of Plagues, Glamour, etc. 
5.	The Soul Harvester. Dear sweet merciful crap… a Demolisher cannon with an assault profile? In addition to the harvester cannon? A deepstriking warmachine from hell… oh ya buddy!

What I am confused about…
1.	The entire army deepstrikes. Not only that, only ½ come on at first and the remainder trickle in slowly using the reserves rule. It makes things fairly one sided to start, not to mention the random destructions the demons could face coming down to start with. It’s an uphill battle to start with, especially considering the army composition. 
2.	The special Greater demon of Khorne. Why do I want my enemies to benefit from my own special character? 
3.	Both Assault and Defensive grenades? Pretty large indication of what 5th has in store. In the mean time; Frag, Krak, Blight, Plasma all fall under the category of grenades. Enjoy the broken power you have I guess. (Except you don’t get the extra Str while assaulting vehicles… poo…)
4.	Jet Bike tank hunters. Melta-bomb like jaws? Very interesting… screw your turbo boost when I already have an Inv save!

What I didn’t like…
1.	Demonic Princes being heavies. There are no ranged options and few options outside the Chaos codex for these guys. Seems like a redundant waste to me. Considering the power the Soul Harvester has, why ever bother?
2.	Over ½ the army selections have no ranged abilities whatsoever. Coupled with the Deepstrike entrance, this really hurts players to start with. 
3.	The Gods are fickle. It’s bad enough to split our armies into two halves. But now you may not even give the players the choice in what half to start with? Seems pretty shady to me. 
4.	The lack of allies/synergy. The Book of Plagues is nasty enough, but couple that with a standard Plague Marine army and you’ve nearly broken the game. I can see why they shouldn’t be allies according to how nasty the rules can be, but it still doesn’t fit that we can’t ally them. 

I’m sure there’s more, but those are just some points to bring up.


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

You'd think that a CSM list would at least be allowed to field the CD version of the units they already have access to (cult daemons and greater daemons). I don't think that this would be overly unbalancing; hell the greater daemons are expensive enough to take that into account!
No, I was sort of irked about the no allies thing, but more than anything it's the deployment that vexes me.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head, Revalations.
I didn't want to type up an exhaustive post, so thanks for doing it for me, lol.
The units themselves are very powerful in my opinion, and (as expected) you're going to be centered around assault more than ranged combat.

The unbalancing factor... the one that I'm most irritated with is their deep striking deployment.
The 5th edition book has the same restrictions on deep striking units as the 4th edition rulebook when it comes to assaulting after one deep strikes- you can't. And the Chaos Daemons codex doesn't change this.
As it stands, only the generic (crappy) daemons from the CSM codex can still do that.
Besides a 1/3 chance that you're not going to get the half army that you want coming in, you've gotta make due with that one half and hope that the rest of your army comes in soon enough to help win the game.
I'm sure that someone can concoct a viable list, but I just don't mess around with random variables in a 40k list.
We've already got to worry about our dice screwing us before even considering the additional rape that can happen if our Chaos Daemon deployment goes sour.

It is the army's deployment that makes me balk the most. I don't like it and it's not good enough for me to waste money buying.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I appreciate the reviews guys. I can definitely understand how you would be irked by the deployment methods. It's just not reliable, and it's hard to go into a competitive game knowing that the first couple of turns will be so crucial because half your army will be arriving late and scattering 2d6."


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

*Spoiler Alert!*

Well dammit, we've said enough already.

O.k., here's a quick synopsis without violating any copyrighted material:

H.Q.'s.
The Chaos Daemons codex has a TON of HQ choices. You can field Greater Daemons, named Greater Daemons & Heralds of Chaos.
As expected, each one of these is dedicated to one or another of the four gods of chaos.
As usual, none of the named characters can be modified in any way. But, the greater daemons can be outfitted a bit to your desires with daemonic gift options. You can take two Heralds of Chaos as a single HQ choice, either the named heralds or ones that you build yourself. The heralds have between 2 and 3 wounds and can be tooled up how you want them (from gifts like chariots to stat. increases and psychic power-like abilities).

Troops.
The four dedicated daemons are all here (Bloodletters, Pink Horrors, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers) as are Nurgling Swarms.
And yes, all of these daemons have been tooled up to make them nasty and relatively cheap for the level of punishment that they can unleash.

Elites.
These are Fiends of Slaanesh, Flamers of Tzeentch, Bloodcrushers of Khorne and Beasts of Nurgle. They are about as expensive as Tyranid warriors are at their basic cost and usually have 2 wounds each in squads that max. out according to their god's sacred number. Flamers cap out at 12/squad as the only exception to this, but they are also the only elite with a mere 1 wound per model too.

Fast Attack.
Here we have Flesh Hounds of Khorne, Seekers of Slaanesh, Screamers of Tzeentch and Furies of Chaos. Most are beast units that are pretty good and (again) worth their points in my opinion.
The unique change to these squads is that Screamers of Tzeentch are of the Jetbike type and suck in CC with no ranged attacks; their only cool weapon is that they count as having meltabombs! Can't be sure (haven't read the 5th edition rulebook since last week), but I think that skimmers will be much easier to hit than before with close combat attacks, so this unit may prove even nastier than I thought. I doubt that there'll be any kind of armor left on the board apart from Necron Monoliths after these nasties hit.

Heavy Support.
Chaos Daemons have two choices: The Soulgrinder and Daemon Prince. 
None are 0-1, so you can have up to three of each if you want. The Daemon Princes listed in this codex are also much more maleable than their CSM counterparts, allowing for dozens of builds at least.
Hell, you think that Tyranid Godzilla Lists are ugly... imagine 3 Winged Daemon Princes with all of the nasty ways you can build them combined with two greater daemons from the H.Q. section... aaaah!
Course, that's half of your army or more right there, heh.

Deployment:
The codex would be soooooo mean, so dirty and so disgusting IF.... if it didn't deploy in a manner that made it weak.
To deploy, you divide your army into two groups that must contain an equal (or as equal as possible) number, then nominate one of the groups.
On your first turn you roll 1d6.
On a 3-6 you deep strike the squads in the group that you've chosen. The squads all come in, so no need to roll for reserves; all of the other restrictions on deep strike still apply though.
On a 1-2 you deep strike the group that you didn't select instead; same as above otherwise.
The portion of your army that didn't deep strike comes in on reserves rolls as normal, deep striking to come in.

And that's about it. Can't post much more-detailed information without causing an uproar, but I hope that helped a bit.

-Cheers.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

I ordered the spearhead box expecting that even if I was getting a new army codex, that I'd get something to replace the generic summoned demons in the CSM codex. 

It's nice that the demonettes and keepers of secrets gained fleet, though.

Deep striking isn't so bad now that I've reread the rules and noticed that deep striking into forests is perfectly safe. Time to set up some forests and buildings to bring along when going to the store. "Oh, I just wanted to make sure that we had enough terrain to play with..." :angel:


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Changer of Ways said:


> You'd think that a CSM list would at least be allowed to field the CD version of the units they already have access to (cult daemons and greater daemons). I don't think that this would be overly unbalancing; hell the greater daemons are expensive enough to take that into account!
> No, I was sort of irked about the no allies thing, but more than anything it's the deployment that vexes me.
> 
> You pretty much hit the nail on the head, Revalations.
> ...


I agree, it's hard to feel like Chaos without the demons.



Changer of Ways said:


> The unbalancing factor... the one that I'm most irritated with is their deep striking deployment.
> The 5th edition book has the same restrictions on deep striking units as the 4th edition rulebook when it comes to assaulting after one deep strikes- you can't. And the Chaos Daemons codex doesn't change this.
> As it stands, only the generic (crappy) daemons from the CSM codex can still do that.
> Besides a 1/3 chance that you're not going to get the half army that you want coming in, you've gotta make due with that one half and hope that the rest of your army comes in soon enough to help win the game.
> ...


The argument against deep strike assualts: 
Deep striking beasts who can assault on their first turn

Still, it would be nice if you could atleast spread out. I guess the rumors about scattering barrages and being able to hunker down might help out a bit, but it's going to be tough.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Well if the "rumored" changes to 5th Edition deep strike rules follow through it could have a drastic impact on the way this army is played (see: Deep Strike Mishaps).

Another thing that interests me is the "rumored" change to Force Weapons to make the effect "Instant Death" which all the daemons ignore due to Eternal Warriors. Ergo you will have to eat through all the wounds in a Daemons army... not so cool. At least my Daemon Hammer will get a little more use now! (Hurray for Destroy Daemon + Daemon Hammer + Sacred Incense + Rites of Exorcism)


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks for the Info I quite like the sound of it I was wondering Is all the Fluff about Gods in there 
AKA Khorne Hates Slaanesh?


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## ServiceStud (Mar 1, 2008)

The Rivalry is still there but you can field any combination of troops and they explain it in a rather elegant manner, imo.

Quite a few people in my local area have already started crying that daemons are too powerful. I guess they need to see the effect of having only half your army for (potentially) half the game.

I bought the spearhead too and the second I got it (2 days ago) I built the 
Soulgrinder. Wow. Not only is it a sweet looking model, it is also a delight to assemble. The new plastics are great, imo. The daemonettes are, although more androgynous, very slender and almost fragile looking without loosing their menace. I haven't assembled any of the bloodletters or metal figures but I am looking very much forward to it.


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

H.Q.
Bloodthirster (250)

Lord of Change (250)

Fast Attack
5 Screamers of Tzeentch (60 pts.)
5 Screamers of Tzeentch (60 pts.)
8 Seekers of Slaanesh, 1 Seeker w/ Chaos Icon (161 pts.)

Troops
4 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch & 1 Changeling. 1 Horror w/ Bolt of Tzeentch (100)

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, 1 Horror w/ Chaos Icon, 1 Horror w/ Bolt of Tzeentch (120)

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, 1 Horror w/ Chaos Icon, 1 Horror w/ Bolt of Tzeentch (120)

10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh, 1 Daemonette w/ Chaos Icon (165)

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince of Chaos
w/ Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies (235 pts.)

w/ Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Nurgle, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies (235 pts.)

Daemon Prince of Chaos
w/ Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Devourer, Bolt of Tzeentch (240 pts.)

=1,996 pts.

MWA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Nurgle is slow as hell, this kinda hampers those of us who considered fielding a pure Nurgle Demon army. Slow assault troops...makes no sense. Personally Im gonna push my group to allow the use of greater and lesser demon with CSM.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

rokassan said:


> Nurgle is slow as hell, this kinda hampers those of us who considered fielding a pure Nurgle Demon army. Slow assault troops...makes no sense. Personally Im gonna push my group to allow the use of greater and lesser demon with CSM.


Hence why the entire army can deepstrike. No guts no glory!!

But I will say with the combination of Poisons and the Book of Plagues, I can see the possibility for an insane amount of damage and resilience coming from them. FnP on a 3+? Yes please!


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Absolutely and with rumors that slow and purposeful units now get the +1 attack on the charge that adds a little offensive power. Imagine using them as a screen for your Plague Marines. And with the real 5 toughness, short of a railgun they get that FnP role. That book of Plagues is nasty as hell, just hide Epidemus in the back and tally up those kills.


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Nurgle is good in my opinion. Their daemons are good and the Great Unclean One has Feel No Pain, ignores armor saves and wounds on a 2+, DAMN!

I also like the idea of fielding Epidemius, the unique Herald of Nurgle.
With him on the table, the more wounds you do with Nurgle units, the more powerful Nurgle units become!

Chart goes:
-All plagueswords wound on a 3+
-All followers of Nurgle have Noxious Touch (wound on a 2+)
-Nurgle units save with Feel No Pain on a 3+.
-All attacks from Nurgle units ignore armor saves.

The more kills Nurgle units rack up, the more abilities they unlock.
You only need to kill 20+ models to get them all. Not bad, I'd say.

-----------------------------------------------------------

One question, though:
When you give a Herald a chariot, the chariot itself gives the model additional profile upgrades (more attacks, strength, toughness, etc.). Furthermore, some of the chariots change the unit type from infantry to bike or jetbike.
The main rulebook (and the 5th edition preview rulebook) states that models mounted on bikes and jetbikes recieve a toughness increase of +1.
Nowhere in the codex does it state that the stat. upgrades given by the chariots supercedes or ignores this.
Does that mean that a model on such a chariot (one that gives a toughness increase along with other buffs) will recieve a total of +2 to its toughness?
I realize that this question is not truly answerable until the actual 5th ed. rulebook comes out, but assuming that it doesn't change...???


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Thing that really interests me is that possibly Deamon Hunters will now get more converts. As people begin to play more and more of this army, people are going to want specialist units to face them. Deamon Hunters may be seen as a more vialbale force. Which means increased sales and could (very small chances I know) lead to a new codex quicker. At the moment I don't see DH's getting a new Dex untill probably 6th edition, they will probably end up as the new Dark Eldar.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Changer of Ways said:


> One question, though:
> When you give a Herald a chariot, the chariot itself gives the model additional profile upgrades (more attacks, strength, toughness, etc.). Furthermore, some of the chariots change the unit type from infantry to bike or jetbike.
> The main rulebook (and the 5th edition preview rulebook) states that models mounted on bikes and jetbikes recieve a toughness increase of +1.
> Nowhere in the codex does it state that the stat. upgrades given by the chariots supercedes or ignores this.
> ...


You'll notice on page 76 that after each chariot description it says "Its modified profile will then be as follows:" followed by the new values. 

That's it, no additional modifiers for being a jetbike other than the movement options like turboboostings. And I assume they didn't bother with listing T3(4) instead of T4 since they're immune to instant death.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Gaaaah! I'm getting my book tomorrow... must... wait... *mind breaks*


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## Trudge_34 (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm jealous of all you that have the codex...I can't get mine until next week friday when I get my Soul Grinder and Bloodletters.  

Of course by then I'll have a legal Daemon army too with my Greater Daemon, Bloodletters, Daemon Prince and Soul Grinder I hope so I can start playing them soon as I get everything together and painted.


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## general (Feb 1, 2008)

revenant13 said:


> the only thing that i know sucks about the daemon codex is that it is forbidden to ally CSM and Daemons together. they are seperate armies and cannot be allied (unless its an apocalypse game).


I don't quite understand why everyones getting in such a fuss about this.
The only time it really affect you is in tournaments.
You can easily do this in a 'normal' game, you don't need apocalypse. There are the options for use in friendly games.

Either use two FO, making two smaller forces (e.g. 2x750 for 1500 pts), as long as you take the troops and HQ's not a problem.

Just use the relevant deamon statline from codex deamons (paying the appropriate cost) for summoned deamons.
I don't know how the deployment is suppossed to work, but I think this should work (still waiting on the codex!).
At the end of the day, in a friendly game anyone can ally anyone, as long as your opponent is aware of this. 
I don't have a problem checking. At the end of the day, it's not fair for them to prep for a small elite force of CSM, and then be jumped on by a horde of cheap deamons.


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## Dallandou (Jul 23, 2009)

Im just curious about this guys but if you have a Chaos Icon group on the field and then drop a Troop within 6 inches of that icon then that troop can assault on that first turn

Read the Warp Bleed part of the Chaos Daemons rule book where it explains this


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

The wording is tricky, but I don't think that you could. Though it would make complete sense, since wherever there is a warp rift opening in your face, the Daemons come out like mad and charge right away. They don't have a tea party 'till you shoot them apart. You just have to warp in behind the best cover you can find then rush ahead like mad because your army is most probably best in close combat. Unless its a 100% Tzeentchy army, which is very hard to master. But they are still better than an all-Slaanesh list I think: they are very flimsy and they need to get into melee.


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