# Move away from Space Marines



## TomB360 (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi,

Do you think there is a conscious effort from the BL authors to move away from terms such as 'Space Marine' and 'Space Wolves'? 

In my opinion they don't fit with the image and feel of the 40k universe anymore - they may have done back in 'the day'.

Especially in the HH series, I'm seeing the space marines referred to as Astartes or Legiones Astartes. Also, I've noticed the Space Wolves being referred to as the Vlka Fenryka or Wolves of Fenris, but this is only in a few novels.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

In last couple years, BL authors have been mentioning that BL is trying to move _towards_ the term "space marines" and away from Astartes, actually. Perhaps in response to what you're noticing, actually, from a few years ago, to focus on the teenage market.


----------



## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

TomB360 said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> Especially in the HH series, I'm seeing the space marines referred to as Astartes or Legiones Astartes. Also, I've noticed the Space Wolves being referred to as the Vlka Fenryka or Wolves of Fenris, but this is only in a few novels.


ive noticed that. also the spacewolves are also referred to as the sons of Russ


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I've seen that, but I've kind of chalked it up to the speaker in the book, not the author. I would love for just one writer to refer to them as I do: 'fuckers'.


----------



## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Ive noticed it too , the actual writers don't mention the word space marine as much as the word used to be mentioned anymore. but in hte meantime stuff like "space marine battles" novels show up wich is a range named by BL itself.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I prefer Adeptus Astartes, Legiones Astartes, etc., to "Space Marines". I like how they introduced the latter to the Horus Heresy (as a slang term for commoners), but I don't think it fits the religious view the majority of the Imperium seems to apply to them.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

TomB360 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you think there is a conscious effort from the BL authors to move away from terms such as 'Space Marine' and 'Space Wolves'?
> 
> ...


Up until about a year ago, that was exactly the case among several authors. (This, interestingly, shows the rough speed some things take to flow through the fandom.)

It's changed back, though. GW now specifically wants them referred to as Space Marines, in the sense of proper nouns in prose. "Marine" and "Astartes" are essentially no longer in use.

As in, you can no longer say "The Astartes headbutted the guy" or "The Marine headbutted that guy".

It's "The Space Marine headbutted that guy."


----------



## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

I much prefer Astartes to Space Marine, Space Marine just seems so generic in comparison.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree that Astartes is my preferred term (though Abnett's use of transhuman in_ Know No Fear_ was inspired). Space Marine for me just conjures an image of generic sci-fi soldiers, or something fron Star Ship Troopers. Astartes though, that's pure 40k. The word helps conveys the religious and ridiculously gothic nature of the Imperium.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Grendelrt said:


> I much prefer Astartes to Space Marine, Space Marine just seems so generic in comparison.





Rems said:


> I agree that Astartes is my preferred term (though Abnett's use of transhuman in_ Know No Fear_ was inspired). Space Marine for me just conjures an image of generic sci-fi soldiers, or something fron Star Ship Troopers. Astartes though, that's pure 40k. The word helps conveys the religious and ridiculously gothic nature of the Imperium.


The issue as it stands (or rather, as it stood about a year ago when Space Marine was mandated as the proper term) is that just saying "Astartes" isn't a preference, it's incorrect. Adeptus Astartes evidently means "Adepts of the Stars". You can use it as an organisational title, but that's about it.


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The issue as it stands (or rather, as it stood about a year ago when Space Marine was mandated as the proper term) is that just saying "Astartes" isn't a preference, it's incorrect. Adeptus Astartes evidently means "Adepts of the Stars". You can use it as an organisational title, but that's about it.


that and I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the Adeptus Astartes included the support functionaries of the legions. You know, the cooks and mop pushers.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The issue as it stands (or rather, as it stood about a year ago when Space Marine was mandated as the proper term) is that just saying "Astartes" isn't a preference, it's incorrect. Adeptus Astartes evidently means "Adepts of the Stars". You can use it as an organisational title, but that's about it.


What about in terms of a Space Marine thinking in first person? Do they they think, for example, 'humans wouldn't understand this or that, they are only human while we are Astartes', or would it be 'blah blah blah yadda yadda Space Marines', or 'ditto Chapter Name'?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, that is an entirely reasonable argument for not using "Astartes" to refer to individual marines. However, calling each marine a "space marine" all the time just seems like it would get irritating. It just seems like it would be too long.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Space Marine sounds way too generic and downright childish to say. If I'm talking to someone, and they ask me about 40k, and I say "Space Marines", they give me a funny look and immediately stop taking me seriously. But if I say "Adeptus Astartes" they actually become interested.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Hachiko said:


> What about in terms of a Space Marine thinking in first person? Do they they think, for example, 'humans wouldn't understand this or that, they are only human while we are Astartes', or would it be 'blah blah blah yadda yadda Space Marines', or 'ditto Chapter Name'?


Same thing as above. "Astartes" just doesn't apply in that context anymore.

I'm not saying I prefer Space Marine. As the author guiltiest of using Astartes instead of Marine or Space Marine, it's obvious which I preferred. But the changeover is locked solid now.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Do you know (and are able to tell us) the reason for the change? I suppose i can understand it from a marketing point of view what with all the Space Marine stuff in the tabletop game labelled as "Space Marine". Though i would have also thought that going with a term that is solely/recognisably their own; "Astartes" (i don't know any other setting that uses that term) would be good to set them apart from every other setting that uses space marines (which is most sci fi).


----------



## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Rems said:


> Do you know (and are able to tell us) the reason for the change? I suppose i can understand it from a marketing point of view what with all the Space Marine stuff in the tabletop game labelled as "Space Marine". Though i would have also thought that going with a term that is solely/recognisably their own; "Astartes" (i don't know any other setting that uses that term) would be good to set them apart from every other setting that uses space marines (which is most sci fi).


I think that's part of the point. GW aren't trying to set themselves apart, they're trying to ensure if becomes a definitive, unified front. Such that when someone says 'space marine', you immediately think 'hulking, power armoured, genehanced warrior carrying the geneseed of the primarchs', not 'GW or that other setting?'

It's quite an aggressive stance to make, but also one which probably won't have verifiable/measurable results. A nice notion from the company's perspective.

There's also the undercurrent of 'Astartes' not being a word. That sounds like it's a big part of the motivation from the GW side too. "It is not correct to say 'Astartes', the phrase only makes sense when 'Adeptus Astartes' is said." Similarly, saying "Adeptus" on its own is probably a bit of an odd/over-general term. (Which has long bothered me with Ben's novel _Dark Adeptus_, should've been _Dark Mechanicus_ :threaten: .)

Anyway, the 'silliness' of Space Marine as a phrase is diminished with use and conviction. Space Wolf sounds silly. Space Marine just sounds a bit odd. It's not the worst word out there though.

"What's that?"
"The wooden thing in the living room?"
"Yeah."
"That's the fireplace."
"The what?"
"Fireplace. It's the place where the fire goes."
"Top-notch naming skills, there."

Personally, I'm much more vexed by the appellation of 'brother-' to things. 'Brother-sergeant', for example. It seems ham-fisted. Too close to 'Wolfclaw' and 'Bloodmissile'. Even keeping the feel & unity pursued by using 'Space Marine', I think authors and creative wits can be a bit cannier in their approach to semiotics, innuendo & themes. 

(McNeill, Abnett & Wraight did very well in their "There's Something About Magnus" trilogy.)


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I'm not saying I prefer Space Marine.
> But the changeover is locked solid now.


Didn't think so from your past work.

This is obviously a 'from above' mandate. I just wonder if this trickles down from the Board of Directors, which assumes (hopes) that the link of using "Space Marine" often enough in the print matter will translate to more folks going to the GW website and buying more figures, or someone in the managerial/operating capacity that collects author/customer feedback and makes the most intelligent logistical decision from there. I'm assuming the latter is not the case here.

I'll admit, as a fairly new BL reader, I knew at first (obviously) what Space Marines were, but the first time I heard Adeptus Astartes it threw me for a loop. But hey, we have that thing called the internet so I could figure it out right quick. Personally I like when the Marines refer to themselves as Astartes and regular people refer to them as Space Marines. But hey, the $100-200 I spend yearly on BL products ain't gonna carry my opinion too far.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The issue as it stands (or rather, as it stood about a year ago when Space Marine was mandated as the proper term) is that just saying "Astartes" isn't a preference, it's incorrect. Adeptus Astartes evidently means "Adepts of the Stars". You can use it as an organisational title, but that's about it.


I've gotta say, I don't care that it is technically incorrect, you won't find me using the term "Space Marines" - cringeworthy in my opinion. 

I'll stick to "Astartes". Of course though, that is just little ol' me.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Felt appropriate.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've gotta say, I don't care that it is technically incorrect, you won't find me using the term "Space Marines" - cringeworthy in my opinion.
> 
> I'll stick to "Astartes". Of course though, that is just little ol' me.


Indeed, I will almost always refer to them as Astartes, everyonce in a while i might slip up and say 'marine' but I can live with that. The full 'Space Marine' just sounds shit.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> In last couple years, BL authors have been mentioning that BL is trying to move _towards_ the term "space marines" and away from Astartes, actually.


Terrible decision. I want my ceramite clad killing machines, not Tonka Toys.

Although one could argue the corruption of connotation that has afflicted us all.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I so prefer to say "Adeptus Astartes" rather than "Space Marines". For example, if I would be to explain, say, what the Horus Heresy novels were all about to someone, I would not say that there are lots of these Space Marine guys in there, for that would just click the "Ouh, its something lame" button in their head, as where "Adeptus Astartes" sounds infinitely more awesome and would be far more likely to click the correct buttons.


----------



## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

I know this is a small number of people's perspective, but its funny that basically everyone in this thread has replied the same way, yet the exact opposite is being done by GW lol.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, the term 'space marine' has too much of a cheese factor IMO. How they're sometimes referred to as legionnaires in the HH novels also sounds way better than 'space marines'. That's why I'll normally only say 'marine' if I'm referring to them in that manner.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Is there any chance a group petition to BL from us might have any impact?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Hachiko said:


> Is there any chance a group petition to BL from us might have any impact?


No, it's nothing to do with BL. It's GW-mandated, that came down to the authors from the IP department.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> No, it's nothing to do with BL. It's GW-mandated, that came down to the authors from the IP department.


Ah well, there has to be someone I can at least send an impassioned e-mail to. I know it's a shot in the dark, but whatever. 

I really don't want to knock GW/BL too much. It might cater to a niche market, but for a brand it consistently puts out quality stuff. I don't collect the minis but the sculpts are beautiful, the printed matter is usually good-looking, and the licensed fiction attracts/retains quality authors. (EDIT: The movie, not so much quality.)

But for a niche market, the vox populi must mean something. I'd encourage everyone that voiced their opinion in this thread to contact GW as well, show them we are not just nit-picky purists, but that this new direction will lead to redundancy, lessened quality of work, and a dissatisfied customer base.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Hachiko said:


> Ah well, there has to be someone I can at least send an impassioned e-mail to. I know it's a shot in the dark, but whatever.
> 
> I really don't want to knock GW/BL too much. It might cater to a niche market, but for a brand it consistently puts out quality stuff. I don't collect the minis but the sculpts are beautiful, the printed matter is usually good-looking, and the licensed fiction attracts/retains quality authors.
> 
> But for a niche market, the vox populi must mean something. I'd encourage everyone that voiced their opinion in this thread to contact GW as well, show them we are not just nit-picky purists, but that this new direction will lead to redundancy, lessened quality of work, and a dissatisfied customer base.


The thing is, it probably won't lead to redundancy, lessened quality of work, and a dissatisfied customer base. It's already been changed back to Space Marine (or, rather, corrected to it) for well over a year. Dozens and dozens of novels with the change have already been released. No one's mentioned it at all - and these are major novels that sold like motherfuckers.

I was vehemently against it at first, but ultimately, it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things. I was up to my throat in email wars over this change, the likes of which required the invention of new swear words to use against the guys on the other side. But, really, they were right. It's made practically no difference.

Don't mistake a handful of people online as the vox populi. The overwhelming majority of the fanbase either won't notice, or won't care.


----------



## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

I understand why GW wants it that way. "Space Marine" is a MUCH easier sell than "Adeptus Astartes". The first gives a 40k ignorant person some clue as to what it is while the second just makes them say, "Huh?". Astartes, Space Marine, Transhumans, etc. all mean the same thing and people who are big enough into 40k to get the books know what the author is talking about no matter what term they used.


----------



## TomB360 (Dec 28, 2010)

Wow, I didn't expect so many responses and they were fun to read.

I hadn't noticed that it'd changed back to 'Space Marine'. Ultimately, it makes no difference to the stories, but Latin-sounding words are so much cooler :biggrin:


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The thing is, it probably won't lead to redundancy, lessened quality of work, and a dissatisfied customer base. It's already been changed back to Space Marine (or, rather, corrected to it) for well over a year. Dozens and dozens of novels with the change have already been released. No one's mentioned it at all - and these are major novels that sold like motherfuckers.


This may be where my exuberance is getting the best of me. For example, I am catching up on a lot of old W40K books now, namely HH titles, and thinking of substituting Space Marine for every instance of "Adeptus Astartes" (or some other arrangement of the term) is mind-boggling. But one thing I don't get, is it a total elimination of the term? Doesn't your recent "For the Fallen", for example, use the term AA?(EDIT: I just reread where you said it can still be used as organizational title, sorry) Anyway, I wish I had the time to read all the BL stuff to gauge the change across the board. Maybe I can sell some of my kids on eBay and then have some free time......



> I was vehemently against it at first, but ultimately, it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things. I was up to my throat in email wars over this change, the likes of which required the invention of new swear words to use against the guys on the other side. But, really, they were right. It's made practically no difference.


Just to make sure I clarify, I understand it's just that you are bringing this news out. It's much appreciated. I never assumed you pushed for it.
I don't know if I would say they were right. I would say that they are lucky enough to have enough authors that are clever enough to write well around it.



> Don't mistake a handful of people online as the vox populi. The overwhelming majority of the fanbase either won't notice, or won't care.


If the internet can be counted on for anything, it's:
1. Porn
2. Cruelty through the security of anonymity, and
3. the overestimation of the value of one's own opinion.

A handful of people on the internet, on one forum, in one thread, may not be the vox populi, but I have to believe each populi has a vox to be heard. If this change doesn't in fact cause redundancy, etc. etc., it is still a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.". And I think anyone that agrees should say so to the ones making the changes.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

TomB360 said:


> Ultimately, it makes no difference to the stories, but Latin-sounding words are so much cooler :biggrin:


This too. :biggrin:


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I for one when I first read Horus Rising was surprised at the absence of the term Space Marine, but as I read on, i preferred LA and AA. Now it sounds just like a 80's sci-fi starring Arnold or anyone muscle pumped guy from that area. It doesnt lessened the quality of books, I must agree on that and I do still get chills in an awesome way everytime I hear (and I mean hear, don't read) "Space Marines" followed by a cool sentence or something, like from DOW-games.

Space Marine was overused in the game with game by the same name by the Orks. Couldnät they have had a little bit more lines than just that?


----------



## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Hachiko: 'Adeptus Astartes' is the organisational title of the Space Marines. One is not 'an Adeptus Astartes' as much as one is a member of the Adeptus Astartes. (In the same way you wouldn't refer to a Magos as an Adeptus Mechanicus, or in the singular: a Mechanicus.)

The phrase itself, Adeptus Astartes, isn't being removed, as DBC says: it's being 'corrected'. An individual front-line, battle-brother warrior of the Adeptus Astartes is a Space Marine. 

Referring to a Space Marine as an 'Astartes' is probably a bit like referring to an electrician as a 'luminary'. Not only 'not quite right', but sounds a bit silly & possibly pretentious.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

@Xisor: 
Thanks for clarifying it like that.
Although I have to disagree; if I were an electrician I think it'd be pretty badass to be called a luminary.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Xisor: we should ask Chun on the Bolthole if he would prefer being called a luminary, he being an electrician. Though... knowing Chun, that seems like just the sort of baroque, gothic thing that he would embrace wholeheartedly.


----------



## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

I'm not going to knock GW too much as I think it gets a lot of unwarranted criticism. However is does, from time to time, make some totally nonsensical decisions. This is one of them. Absolutely ridicules. Who on earth comes ups with this nonsense and the arrogance to demand its implication. The benefits of which are very probably nothing.


----------



## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

From GW's perspective, it makes sense. If they don't actively use the term "Space Marine" as much as possible- which means dictating its use in licensed material- they may be considered to have failed to defend their trademark (wow, what a sentence).

It weakens the brand, can cause consumer confusion, and if another company starts calling their miniatures "Space Marines", GW's in a bad position if they dumped the term "Space Marines" in favor of "Adeptus Astartes" years before. Take a look at Kleenex; can you name another facial tissue brand? Legos- can you name another building block in that consumer space? Those are weakened, not strengthened, brands. People call other blocks "Legos" even if they're something like Kre-os. If a kid gets a crappy building block set, he'll blame Lego, not the specific company.

Having said that, I much prefer Adeptus Astartes as it sounds more unique and flavorful.


----------



## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I personally can't stand calling them Space Marines. It's generic, cheesy and childish. I realize this is a universe based on toys but great strides have been made in the quality of writing and in developing the 40K universe into something that can be taken more as seriously (well as seriously as sci-fi can be taken that is). While I will say that the quality of writing hasn't degraded, I still am not in favor of this move. Whenever I explain 40K fiction I always refer to them as Astartes or Adeptus Astartes and mentally substitute the same whenever I read "Space Marine" in a book. Hopefully, GW will reverse this decision at some point or just stop paying attention.


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds like I'm one of the few who doesn't have a problem with calling them Space Marines, so long as they are always capitalized. What do you call members of the Adeptus Arbites? Arbitrators. What do you call members of the Imperial Guard? Guardsmen. What do you call members of the Adeptus Astartes? Space Marines. Yes, it's a strange naming convention in the Imperium, but it's not a terrible thing.

Basically, what Xisor said. If you don't want them to be called Space Marines, and they can't be called "Astartes" (since that's the organization's name, not the individual soldier's name), then what would they be called? Legionnaires is fine, though obviously that would not work in the 41st Millennium. Angels of Death? That's just as cheesy as Space Marines, and it's more of an honorary, descriptive title rather than an official name. Transhuman... well, I haven't read enough to have come across that term used in BL literature, but I think that is an unofficial term as well.

At the same time, however, I'm against barring the shortening of "Space Marine" to "Marine", just for the sake of expediency and the avoidance of chunky-sounding writing. Using the full term each and every time can get annoying.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

gridge said:


> I personally can't stand calling them Space Marines. It's generic, cheesy and childish. I realize this is a universe based on toys but great strides have been made in the quality of writing and in developing the 40K universe into something that can be taken more as seriously (well as seriously as sci-fi can be taken that is). While I will say that the quality of writing hasn't degraded, I still am not in favor of this move. Whenever I explain 40K fiction I always refer to them as Astartes or Adeptus Astartes and mentally substitute the same whenever I read "Space Marine" in a book. Hopefully, GW will reverse this decision at some point or just stop paying attention.


*THEY'RE NOT TOYS!!!*


----------



## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

_Adeptus Astartes_ is one thing. _Astartes_ is another. 'Adept of the Stars' versus 'of the Stars'.

It's like the countless people who say they're taking their car for its MOT, when it should be their MOT test. You could say that if you put it in proper context, it makes the same amount of sense. 

'I'm taking my car for its Ministry of Transport.'

'Look! A genestealer spine,' said the of the Stars.

(Incidentally, I've always liked 'Astartes', too...)


----------



## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I've been reading BL fiction since the first story and to be honest 'Space Marine' and 'Astartes' are interchangable terms in my opinion and I favour neither one nor the other...

However, I do agree that refering to them as 'Space Marines' all the time could become clunky, when 'Marine' would be perfectly acceptable. They are Marines, they are in space, why keep reminding us of that fact? Is there even such a thing as water-based marines in the 41st millennium?

If we look at the British Military as an example, we have the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, therefore in the 41st millennium it would make much more sense to have Imperial Marines as we have the Imperial Navy...


Rev


----------



## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Here's a thought, Pyro (& DBC, as he's been about): does 'Astartes' actually mean 'of the Stars' in that sense?

Indeed, the Low Gothic 'translation' from Adeptus Mechanicus is 'Priesthood of Mars', perhaps not literally. But that's the alternate name for the organisation. Or the Machine Cult, but that's referring to the religion (Roman Catholicism rather than The Roman Catholic Church).

In a sense, there's a good argument for 'Astartes' simply being the wrong word. Indeed, the old description of the denominations of the Imperium given in the 3E rulebook insinuated (to my reading/memory) that 'Adeptus' really is pretty close to being equivalent to 'Priesthood of' (i.e. connoting that the Adeptus are 'holy'), at least by 40k itself. (Right after Guilliman's reforms, this might well not be the case. Same with the Inquisitorial Ordos. In, say, pre-Apostasy, they might well be proper analogues to elite gentlemen's clubs, almost, yet by 40k itself they're vastly more commonly referred to as 'The Holy Ordos'?)

Looking at Wikipedia and hamfistedly doing the old 'High Gothic is pidgin Latin', Astartes is (surely?) a derivation of Astarte. And she, being the early Greek equivalent of Aphrodite (and the nominal deification of the planet Venus, 'the evening star') isn't really that much to do with 'of the Stars'.

In a similar manner, it looks like 40k's ran into a few difficulties with its Latin usage. Uriel Ventris (Ventris being 'belly', if I'm not mistaken, amongst other things), Battle Brother Artemis (Artemis being a Greek God*dess*) and so forth.

With that in mind, perhaps best not to dwell on Astartes being anything to do with Astarte and just accept 'Adeptus Astartes' be the high gothic version which loosely translates as "Priesthood of the Stars".

With that in mind, like those of the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the Adeptus Mechanicus, surely it's better to refer to Space Marines not as _Astartes_ but as _Adepts_?

It would connote a certain extended fraternity. There'd even be the opportunity for amusing in-character/in-story discussions where unfamiliar characters get it wrong. (It's cropped up in _Architect of Fate_ at least once - a human character referring to a Space Marine as 'Lord' and being reprimanded/corrected: "I am not your lord".)

I think there's plenty of scope to...make this work. Indeed, draw attention to the naming conventions within the works themselves. *scribbles down ideas*


----------



## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

You just broke my head, Xisor. That wasn't nice.


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

I'll have to admit some of my earlier fervor was a tad premature. Like AD-B said, you can still use Adeptus Astartes as the organizational title.
I was worried that the clunkiness or loss of quality would come into play in sentences like:
Brother-Sergeant Kerfluffle tore the xenos abomination from his pauldron; his Astartes strength lifting and tossing the creature in one deft move.

Obviously, here Astartes 'sounds' better than 'Space Marine'. But I am assuming that you can still use terms like:
genehanced
genetically enhanced
superhuman

or other, better ones, depending on the creativity of the author.

However, in other cases, like Christian Dunn's Easy Prey short, uses Space Marine 4 times in a 1,000 word story. It's too much. If I were to leaf through a story like this at a bookstore, I'd just put it back. And I know that no one at GW/BL, from Tom Kirby down to the authors themselves, give a fart or are obligated to give a fart about the opinion of one consumer.


----------



## narrativium (Feb 28, 2010)

Hachiko: really?

I've just glossed over _Easy Prey_ - it's a thousand words long, as you say. 'Space Marine' appears four times. 'Dark Angel' appears seven times - is that too much, for a story about a couple of Dark Angels? There are 978 other words in that story.
Neither term breaks my immersion - the names are being used correctly.

I don't think it's the repetition in that word count which can be the issue. I just looked at _Kill Hill_, as well. Count the number of times the exact phrase 'Priad of Damocles, of the Iron Snakes of Ithaka' appears. It's a nine-word phrase used five times in a thousand words, so it must be six times as jarring as 'Space Marine' in _Easy Prey_, right?

(This said, I did note that 'Space Marine' and 'Astartes' don't appear in _Kill Hill_. Nor in _For the Fallen_ nor _Only Ash Remains_. I don't know if that's skill on the writers' part - not using or introducing unnecessary terms - or if they just don't have to name things if the fan is well-read enough to be buying birthday stories in the first place.)

A term which does break my immersion when I see it - and I see fans use it, rather than in GW/BL publications - is 'Marine'. On its own, without the 'Space'. It's not a Space Marine, with all the ceramite-clad connotations, if it's just a Marine; a Marine may well be hard as nails but he's just at the top of mere human ability to me.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

narrativium said:


> A term which does break my immersion when I see it - and I see fans use it, rather than in GW/BL publications - is 'Marine'. On its own, without the 'Space'. It's not a Space Marine, with all the ceramite-clad connotations, if it's just a Marine; a Marine may well be hard as nails but he's just at the top of mere human ability to me.


Not allowed to use "Marine", either. It may have slipped through a few times, but it's very much a no-no.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That's just plain stupid. I'm on the Astartes boat with this one. 

Screw you GW.


----------

