# Need help with Blood Angels



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey,

So, my usual sources (mainly here, my gaming club and 1d4chan) I have been rather 'thin' in explaining how to use certain BA units in 6th ed. 

Death Company in particular are confusing me: Are they worth it or not? No one can seem to agree. I have used them twice now, with boltguns in drop pods, and they have been very hit and miss with what they kill. 

I have been toying with gearing them out with bolt pistols and ccw's and putting them in a Storm Raven so they can assault and use those 5 attacks on the charge, with a Reclusiarch. However, the problems this presents are that the SR is going to be vulnerable in hover mode, and if you are unlucky it isn't going to arrive until turn 4. And of course they aren't scoring. 
But the drop pod doesn't really seem to play to their strengths: They can't charge, and if they get charged by termies after dropping in, they are pretty boned. So why not just save points and go with a Tactical Squad or jump pack-less Assault Squad, which give more specialisation, for cheaper. 

How are people running DC in 6th? I would like to know as a newbie to BA.

Assault Squads: Are MSU's still viable? The 50% limit doesn't really seem an issue if you have a gunline supporting the descent, so devastators, librarian, scouts, an aegis etc. Lots of units that start on board that count towards the 50%. So from this perspective it doesn't seem like an issue. 
Removing the jump packs and drop podding: Thought about doing this in some lists, but is it really worth it? 
I am thinking probably the best way is to run squads of x10, one with melta loadout, one with flamer. Or, both with flamer load outs for anti-infantry targets, and instead give a Dreadnought with melta a drop pod and use that for the 1st turn anti-armour removal. 

Thoughts?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Death Company:

I typically play them in a squad of 5 with a standard Reclusiarch, armed with BP/CCW on three, BP/PS on two. I've heard a lot of arguments for using bolters on them, even made that suggestion to people based on the tactics they were employing. I've used them out of a SR, but with only one flier against armies with skyfire/more fliers than me it gets shot out of the sky and the DC just die. Usually lucky to have the Reclusiarch still standing after that. You could 'skies of blood' them, but then they're sitting ducks for a round of enemy shooting. Potentially more so if they scatter bad. Where I've had the most luck with them is played backfield in a standard Land Raider with a TLHB and TLLCs. I put that with a scout squad in camo holding an objective with an auto/las predator behind an ADL and the DC are there as a counter attack measure. At some point the enemy just has to send units backfield to deal with it and they get met with a charge of 5 S6 AP4 attacks, 10 S5 AP3 attacks, and 15 S5 attacks. Oh sure, sometimes they go out in a blaze of glory and do nothing other than act like leashed guard dogs..but they are good leashed guard dogs and that blaze is usually quite glorious.

RAS:

Not sure what you mean by MSU.



Straken's_Fist said:


> Removing the jump packs and drop podding: Thought about doing this in some lists, but is it really worth it?


With one squad, sure. This is the only unit I deploy this way, so they always come in first turn. They are more effective at popping a unit of armour than a MM deadnought for two reasons:

1) Inertial Dampeners mean you can be ballsy about where you place your DP, so that even if you scatter 12" you can still disembark 6" and get two melta shots off as opposed to one. You're likely not going to scatter 12" though, and you can more likely bury those two melta gun armed marines behind:

2) Bodies! If you can't get your dreadnought in cover while still nailing the MM shot, it's dead. Because a RAS can (and certainly should) take 10 models to the unit, they are simply more survivable than one AV12 dreadnought.



Straken's_Fist said:


> I am thinking probably the best way is to run squads of x10, one with melta loadout, one with flamer. Or, both with flamer load outs for anti-infantry targets, and instead give a Dreadnought with melta a drop pod and use that for the 1st turn anti-armour removal.


Like I said before, RAS over dreadnought for anti armour in this scenario. As far as loadouts are concerned, meltas rock and if you take two flamers it's totally work trying to find the points for two hand flamers on the sergeant. Gunslinger means you're rocking 4 flame templates from one squad. Couple that with a Priest using his WS5 to cut apart the enemy with a power sword...well that's just awesome.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

How you run Death Company does depend on the size of the game. Last time I played 2000 points I had 10 with Boltguns and Jump Packs plus Lemartes. And while they did really good, thanks to some luck, my Assault Squad without Jump Packs did better. Granted they were in a Land Raider Crusader and avoided 2 turns of shooting. I also had a Priest and Captain with them, so it was more points. And it was a fun game too. I wouldn't run both those point heavy units in a competitive game. That said, I am increasing going with no Jump Pack Assault Marines and Jump Death Company. My transports are better used on Scoring units.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for your advice guys.

I have accidentally started playing Blood Angels...I bought a massive job lot with the intention of breaking it down and selling it separately solely to make some profit...Well, i've already made my money back and still have about 2000pts leftover, so decided after playing a couple of games to keep the rest. Free blood angel army. Nice  

So yeah, I have decided to primarily use them as allies to my Deathwing/Ravenwing Dark Angels (or vice versa). But will probably play them as a stand alone army in the future from time to time.

Nice idea about the x2 hand flamers - I never thought of doing this. x4 flamer templates just sounds awesome. 

Good points about the Dreadnought MM vs ASM meltas in drop pod.

As for MSU's - it's a term for multiple small units. In this context I was asking if multiple small squads of x5 ASM deep striking are viable, or if its best to go with the x10 full loadout. 

Cheers again.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Straken's_Fist said:


> In this context I was asking if multiple small squads of x5 ASM deep striking are viable, or if its best to go with the x10 full loadout.


Ah. Deep striking I would say no, but that is because of the dudes I face and their hatred of my ability to deep strike on target. They are also used to me dropping a melta squad in T1 so their deployments are all zone denial and mad kill zones. 

I have a 2k BA/DA list that I've yet to try out that utilizes only stuff from the DV set. It looks like it has potential on paper, the two chapters compliment each other nicely. 

If there's one thing on Heresy I like talking about it's BA lists and tactics, so don't hesitate to ask k:


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah Dark Angels were my first ever army back in 2nd edition, and because they shared the same codex - Angels of Death - I also dabbled in Blood Angels. I still have the 2nd edition Mephiston and Corbulo...So it seems things have come back round 15 years later. 

Well, I have only played Dark Angels and Blood Angels in a couple of friendly games, one against Black Templars and one against Vanilla. Both times I used similar lists. Dark Angels as the primary detachment, with couple of squads of Deathwing with Belial, a scout squad behind aegis with quad gun and FML, and a Ravenwing squad with attack bike with melta loadouts. Then for Blood Angels I used a Fragioso in drop pod, DC in drop pod with boltguns, and had a Libby sitting back with the quad gun and scout squads for divination. 
Won both games, and loved the synergy of deathwing assault coupled with drop pods. The Fragioso did spectacularly in both games and I consider it a must-take: It wiped out devastator squads and made it's points back before drawing a tremendous amount of panicked firepower the next turn, dying a horrible death...But totally worth it  It took the heat off the Ravenwing and the Deathwing, which I think is a huge asset in itself. 

The DC (as I said) did pretty poorly against the Black Templar opponent, dropping in, rapid firing, and then getting charged by terminators with rage (Black Templar terminators with chaplain are insane, I have discovered) and TH/SS...Got absolutely creamed. But hey, you live you learn. 
I just don't like how with putting DC in a drop pod you have to sit around for a turn before assaulting. No different from using 'skies of blood' with them in that respect. 
I think the problem is the delivery system. Seems like a lot of people are using them with Land Raiders now, so that might be something I may have to consider. 

That said, I am not sure if DC even have a place in a list based primarily around Deathwing as troops. A shame, because I have tonnes of DC models with all sorts of loadouts, a DC painted stormraven and DC dread, and I like the whole concept and fluff behind them. So it would be nice to make them synergise with Deathwing/Ravenwing.

I think I am going to write some lists with the idea of a gunline behind an Aegis and quad gun giving covering fire to deathwing and assault squads. Something like a Predator, Libby, Devastator squad and Dreadnought with autocannons, with scout squad on the objective in camo cloaks. Then drop pod a Fragioso and a melta or flamer assault squad.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

What ideas do you have for DA-BA allies?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

DC in a Land Raider is still quite viable. The only thing better would be jump packs, and they're prohibitively expensive in any sized unit as far as I'm concerned. 15 in a Crusader with a Reclusiarch as your allied attachment would be 715 points without any upgrades (like you'd need it rolling 75 dice on the charge). Drop 5 DC to make it a mere 60 attacks and you're looking at 615. Pretty respectable for an allied detachment, and depending on the ~1600 points backing it up could make for a decent squad rolling forward in 2K games...though I'd still prefer TH/SS terminators in a SR, that's elites and heavy.

The 2k list I've been wanting to run with BA as the primary is as follows:

BA

HQ - Captain w/PS, PA, JP

ELITES - Furioso w/BT, HF
Priest w/JP, PS

TROOPS - 10x man RAS w/2xMG, MB, DP
10x man RAS w/2xMG
2x 5x man Tac. w/RB w/TLHB

HEAVY - SR w/TLLC, TLMM, HB

DA

HQ - Libby

ELITES - DW w/AC, CF

TROOPS - 10x man Tac. w/PC, PG

FA - RW w/PG

and an ADL with a QG on top.

Libby and Tac sit back in the ADL, 10x man RAS DP's up on the toughest nut. RB's screen RW approach, who use their locator beacon to bring in DW squad T2 and shoot up whatever works with the DW. SR does anti -armour while the Furioso jumps out to bog down any infantry threats to my army by being an AV13 AP3 monster. Captain w/ 10x man RAS are the most tactically unsecured unit. They can combat squad and DS if there isn't much armour to deal with or they can accompany the RW squad. Depending on deployment they could skirt up the opposite flank of the RB's, RW and eventual DW to maybe be supported by the SR and Furioso. 

Really haven't played this list yet. Just been thinking real hard on it. The only DA models I have are the DV ones, hence the choices I've made. Both RAS are melta because it works better on my enemies.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

What's the specific advantage of removing JP from the assault squad? Is it for the advantage of the 20-pt RB / free DP? I'm trying to work out a list at the moment--BA with allied IG. 

I'm thinking it would work similarly to the BA/DA lists you've been discussing, with the IG holding objectives and the BA counterattacking with 2x AS and a LR-mounted DC. It looks good on paper, but I wonder if there's a better way.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

maelstrom48 said:


> What's the specific advantage of removing JP from the assault squad?


35 point reduction on a dedicated transport, that is all really. It applies to Land Raiders as much as it applies to Razorbacks and Rhinos. The other advantages are based around your use and the army that backs the squad. 

Keep in mind that RAS are not really specialized at CC, and are typically only decent at clearing lightly armoured/lower Ld troops off objectives. If you charge them into a unit that actually specializes in CC...well, they're boned. Same with your DC. They will swamp a unit like Warp Talons in attacks, but get destroyed because FC doesn't mean they're attacking at I5 any more. FnP only goes so far before luck has everything to do with it.

Since you're thinking 'assault' and you can only take two troops in an allied FOC, thus making 2x RAS and DC impossible, how many points were you trying to make up for the BA allies? You're right in that they compliment IG well, but there's a lot of times in 6th where having more shooting more than makes up for having a couple units charging.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

Well at this point I'm thinking IG would actually be the allied detachment. I'm thinking they would consist of the following:

Company Command squad w/ Chimera - 4 meltas
Veteran Squad w/ Chimera - 3 meltas
Veteran Squad w/ Chimera - 3 meltas
Leman Russ Demolisher
- 630 pts

At this point I'm thinking of adding whatever complements that list best. So a strong assault element along with some additional shooting. To round out a tentative 2000 pt list, I'm thinking:

- Reclusiarch w/ Power Fist
- Sang. Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Axe
- 10x Assault Marines w/ JP, 2 flamers, 1 Power Fist
- 10x Assault Marines w/ JP, 2 flamers, 1 Power Fist
- 10x Death Company on foot w/ boltguns, 2 Power Axes
- Land Raider Redeemer (carrying DC & Reclusiarch)
- Baal Pred w/ heavy bolters
- Baal pred w/ heavy bolters


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I'd say keep the Priest at I4 with a sword, drop the power fists in the RAS for dual hand flamers and use the leftover points to put a multi melta on the redeemer....and if you can, maybe alternate between the LRR and the LRC. I've found the LRC is a little bit more effective as it maintains a 24" range with all of its weapons, whereas I find flame templates quite limiting. Same reason I always go TLAC on the Baal over the flame cannon. Oh, and for the sake of one extra attack make sure the DC with axes have pistols instead of bolters. You've got them for their AP2 attacks, take two more of those over the AP5 shooting attacks.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

As a Guard player myself, I would go with a blob instead of Chimera Vets, because those 50-man blobs are extremely difficult to shift from objectives...
I tried using Space Wolves with my blob guard and it was ridiculously powerful. Though I have never played it again because I found it very cheesey, with a Rune Priest buffing the blob with primaris divination...120 lasgun shots (FRFSRF), all re-rolling to hit, then another 10 autocannon shots technically twin-linked, is pretty devastating. 

The great thing about Guard is that even as the allied detachment you can easily have 100 infantry with 2 troop slots. Give each blob a commissar and/or attach an IC to buff them and prevent them from running away, and you can't really go wrong.

Back to Blood Angels with Dark Angels: 

ntaw, your list seems fairly similar to what I have had in mind. Except my limitations with DA are that I am only going to use the terminator DW models and a handfull of RW models (3 bikes and an attack bike) plus a HB sponson Predator. Don't have time or much desire to expand into greenwing. The exception being I am keen on DA Scouts and have a couple of squads, because I find them excellent at camping behind the Aegis with a missile launcher (sometimes flakk, if they have a libby near-by to negate the BS3 with divination) and camo cloaks. 2+ cover save with G2G and dirt cheap between 70-95pts depending on the loadout. 
As for Blood Angels, I have access to:
DC Dread, Furioso Dread, SR, loads of DC, Devs, Rifleman Dread (might paint this Dark Angels though), assault marines, drop pods. 

So, I think with DA as the primary detachment, I will just use scouts and Deathwing as objective holders, then for the BA troop choices it seems to make more sense using the ASM solely for anti-tank duties (maybe small 5 man squads in drop pods, with melta gun and melta pistols). Or just use DC as the sole troops choice as a support unit for the Deathwing. But the only problem there is a delivery system: Drop Pods are meh, SR is an option but is risky, so I guess that only leaves a Land Raider Crusader if I want to use them in an aggressive assault role, rolling up behind the deathwing assault to support them wherever needed.
As for BA as the primary, I would only take one DW as elites, and just go with a bare bones Libby as HQ for 65pts. Then Scouts as the troop choice behind an Aegis with Quad Gun. Then load up more with ASM's flamer-melta loadouts as objective claiming troops...My only concern here is what you say about ASM's not being good at clearing objectives from dedicated CC units and lack staying power. So not sure what to take in addition in this scenario? 

This is giving me lots to think about...But feel like I should probably get hold of a LR Crusader.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Oh yeah...

Also wanted to ask about Baal Preds. How to use them, what loadout? 

And Vanguard Veterans: Heroic Intervention seems like it could be useful. And I think you could give every squad member a hand flamer. Deep Strike in, x5 flamer templates, then assault with the odd power weapon (4 attacks on the charge, 5 if they luck out with rage). Seems like it could be effective. The only thing that is off-putting is the price of giving them jump packs, hand flamers and a power weapon is something like 215pts. Not sure if it's worth it.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

My reasons for greenwing are that I bought the DV set and for the same points DA can take a PG and PC, while BA only get a F and ML. Put that together and you get FML, and I don't mean Flakk Missile Launcher because BA can't take flakk. Scouts with camo are amazing behind an ADL, I do it all the time in my BA lists. Them and a las/auto pred kill things quite efficiently. Using ASM for anti tank works, but don't be fooled by IP's: they are pretty damn hard to use as your melta range is 3". I'd stick with a 10 man squad in the DP with 2x MG and the sergeant with MB's if you're down for it. Just more survivable and you'll be able to compliment them well with your RW attack bike if it's armed with a MM.



Straken's_Fist said:


> Also wanted to ask about Baal Preds. How to use them, what loadout?


TLAC, HB sponsons. I'm not the first to say it, nor shall I be the last. _If_ you're using two of them I can almost understand the flame template fest, but a Fragioso does that better out of a drop pod. Both will die horribly, and the Baal may or may not make its points back in this way. I generally start mine on the table, depending on my opponent's set up I might outflank it. Even if you get the wrong board edge you can flat out and get 24" across the table. Means you don't shoot, but hey. Placement. You could also move 12" and still get HB snapshots and TLAC at full BS because the sucker is _fast_.



Straken's_Fist said:


> And Vanguard Veterans: Heroic Intervention seems like it could be useful. And I think you could give every squad member a hand flamer. Deep Strike in, x5 flamer templates, then assault with the odd power weapon (4 attacks on the charge, 5 if they luck out with rage). Seems like it could be effective. The only thing that is off-putting is the price of giving them jump packs, hand flamers and a power weapon is something like 215pts. Not sure if it's worth it.


I really want them to be worth it, but until a new codex comes out and they ditch some of that points cost I'll be taking my 3x TH/SS 2x LC assault terminators for the same price. The changes to charge distance makes Heroic Intervention more possible, but my scatter dice hate me. If my BA scattered 2 D6 I'd be screwed out of units left right and centre. Literally, all of those directions and more.



Straken's_Fist said:


> (4 attacks on the charge, 5 if they luck out with rage)


What do you mean by this? Rage is +2 attacks, and they don't have it. Through the Red Thirst they can become Fearless and get Furious Charge, but FC only gives them +1 strength on the charge. Equally cool, not more attacks though.


By the way, thanks for the rep Straken k:


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

No problem. I appreciate the help. 

I will reply to all of this next week...Away on holiday for a week. Will re-think my lists and what purchases to make (I think LRC and Baal Pred) when I get back.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Cool man, enjoy your vacation!


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey,

Well, I have a friend who I am going to borrow a Land Raider Crusader from to test out the DC in a LR strategy. If I like it I will be investing in one...But as for the BaalPred, that is going to have to wait.

So, I have thought up another list for this weekend. DA with BA allies. It's focusing on fun, but with an eye to win:

2000pts

HQ
Belial w/TH/SS

Mephiston

Librarian

Fort
Aegis w/Quad Gun

Troops
DW x5 w/TH/SS, TH/SS+CML, CF

DW x5 w/TH/SS, TH/SS+CML, CF

Scouts x5 w/camo cloaks

Assault Marines x10 w/melta guns x2, Drop Pod

Assault Marines x10 w/x2 flamers and x1 hand flamer

Elites
Fragioso Dreadnought w/Drop Pod

Heavy Support
Devastators x5 w/x4 ML

Predator w/HB sponsons


Strategy:
Firebase consists of the following units behind the ADL: *Scouts* who camp objective, go to ground for the 2+ whenever they need to. That is literately their only role.* Librarian* (naked) is there to a.) man the quad gun and b.) cast prescience on the *Devastator*s with missile launchers. I feel this negates the need to splash out for flakk missiles somewhat whilst giving the quad gun BS4 shots where if the Scouts manned it it would only be BS3...
Not sure if the Predator will fit behind the Aegis, if not then it will be plonked in cover providing fire support.
*Mephiston* is gonna be footslogging and hugging BLOS scenery. My hope here is that the *Deathwing Terminators* with Belial are going to be teleporting in infront of him on turn 1 which will take the heat off of him. That and a podding *Fragioso* or melta *Assault squad*. 
Then that leaves the flamer Assault Squad to deep strike in wherever needed to provide support or grab/contest objectives. 

Any feedback is welcome.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

mmm...yes. I like this list.



Straken's_Fist said:


> Librarian (naked) is there to a.) man the quad gun and b.) cast prescience on the Devastators with missile launchers. I feel this negates the need to splash out for flakk missiles somewhat whilst giving the quad gun BS4 shots where if the Scouts manned it it would only be BS3...


Use the scout sergeant, who has BS4 to shoot the QG. Also, if you have the ability, take a ILC against Heldrakes or Stormravens. Pens on 4+ is great even if it's only one shot.

You haven't really differentiated, but will you be taking DA scouts or BA ones? Pretty sure the DA are cheaper in points. Same goes for the Predator.

Aside from that have fun with Belial and Mephiston. I played a _bare_ bones list against a buddy's CSM at 1500 and pretty much tabled him but then end of T5. Those two dudes are best buds.

EDIT: ooh, you can't change the weapon load out on your DW sergeants. FAQ prevents it.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Hmmm....But the trouble with the Scout Sergeant is that if he goes to ground can he still fire the quad gun? Also worry about him getting sniped (however unlikely it is with a 2+ cover save) and BS3 having to take over the Quad Gun. 

I also just like having a psyker with divination behind an aegis with a Havoc or Devastator squad. Use it all the time now with my Chaos armies (Tzeentch Herald and Havocs) and it's absolutely deadly. Just seems totally worth it for 65pts. 

I will be taking DA scouts - cheaper. Same goes for the Pred. 

And yeah, have had to pull off my thunder hammer and storm shields and put power swords back on those sergeants thanks to the FAQ! 

I think Belial and Mephiston will be lots of fun  I hope Mephiston makes it into combat without taking too many wounds!

So the Assault Squad loadouts are ok?

Looking forward to trying this out.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Straken's_Fist said:


> But the trouble with the Scout Sergeant is that if he goes to ground can he still fire the quad gun?


No, but I didn't mean that as a replacement for the Libby. Rather that he has BS4 and can shoot in the same faculty should you want to do something else with that psyker.



Straken's_Fist said:


> And yeah, have had to pull off my thunder hammer and storm shields and put power swords back on those sergeants thanks to the FAQ!


This only helps you with that CML. Now you have another shooting weapon in the squad and can take full advantage of Split Fire and not have to charge that tank you didn't kill with the CML but rather the big squishy squad you shot the SB at. Use those 10 points to put a second Hand Flamer on your second assault squad and you basically have my two assault squads that ruin my friend's days over and over.



Straken's_Fist said:


> I hope Mephiston makes it into combat without taking too many wounds!


That is unfortunately totally up to scenery, you, and dice. Thankfully with Fleet he will typically get a solid run distance even if for whatever reason you fail the test for WoS (and that shit _does _happen hahaha). I had a bit of luck with my run distances when I had him maybe, but typically I was moving him minimum 16" a turn.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Well, I am thinking with the drop podding Fragiosos and Deathwing squads with Belial (not too mention a firebase blasting away at them) my opponents will have too much other stuff to worry about and will forget about Mephiston until it's too late...Even if they do take pot shots at him I will be hugging cover the whole way and BLOS as much as humanly possible. 

Looking forward to it anyway. I enjoyed combining drop podding BA's with Deathwing Assault last time I played. I think it's one of the funnest strategies out there.


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