# 'In the far future there is only WAR'....Bit stale now?



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

Yes, I know it is a tabletop wargame(thats out the way). But after playing the game and Immering in the fluff for years I'm starting to think the storyline is somewhat flat now, aside from Dan Abnetts Eisenhorn and ravenor books all we ever seem to get from BL now is soldiers fighting on battlefields.Perhaps its time to give 40k story a little more depth in its books, maybe even set some stories in the earlier times of the imperium (after the heresy).

A good idea would be a set of stories or an anthology where the first stories start at say M34 and to actually revisit the world in another later story set maybe 2 millenia later. This way you could see how the imperium changes over time as well as opening up real good opportunities to write great novels.

Ive always really seen the imperium of man not as a static realm that as stayed at a million worlds from M31-41, but as a stellar empire that has shrunk and expanded over its 10'000 year life. Perhaps in one millenium it thrives and has control of about 2 or 3 million + systems and in later milleniums drastically reduced to perhaps even less than it is in 40k.
The current fluff doesnt really do this aspect much justice, it often gives the impression apart from a few brief paragraphs, that the imperium has been static since its founding, the changing size and attitudes over time represent a real opportunity to write some great stories with the potential to revisit their settings in later books and its somthing BL has really neglected to capitalise on. any thoughts...


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## Aramoru (Apr 19, 2009)

I think the fluff of warhammer 40k is too deep to cover entirely, while you do mention one part of the fluff that has been lacking in representation I don't think many people (including myself or perhaps just myself) are interested in reading about the skirmishes where plants are lost, then retaken... then lost again only later to be retaken, but rather more importantly the large battles that mean something. I mean warhammer 40k is a war game, which you did mention at the start of your post but you seem to mention it more like the fact that its a war games does not matter when that's almost the point of fluff entirely. Its only natural people read about battles so magnificent there is no ~easy~ way to replicate them and experience them other than reading a book on the matter.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I think, and by no means am I a fluff guru, that in the last 10,000 years its all been a down hill slide. But your right there is a lot to be had. I'd love to see stuff from the golden age (ie the Dark age of Technology). When people wherent relgiously retarded and they understood how things worked. That'd be great to have a look at and of course its eventual fall in rich detail. The time before the Emperor.

As for the status qoe, i'm just a bit bored of all this awesome stuff building up to something that will never happen. I'd love to see a dramatic event occur, they could write books around it and release a series of game campagins to coinside with it.

for example the golden throne offically fails, the Imperium is in chaos, its enemies close in with a big push while civil war breaks out for succession. The Tau make a bid to ascend as the next super power, Chaos attempts to take Earth itself, Necrons stir on Mars and march in legions all the while the outer systems and eldar face off against the Tynards. 

Not told simply as "endless war" but as "The Final War of the Imperium". No matter the outcome the game world would change forever.

Such as, no more emperor, Mars is turned into a tomb world. Prehaps Earth does survive but its ruined and constant demon assaults must be pushed back. The Tau are now the dominent force but having over expanded there empire are now being peaked apart by Orcs and Dark Eldar raiders. That's what i'd love to see.


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## Aramoru (Apr 19, 2009)

Idk if space marine / guard players would take too kindly to that. I think that would be cool just having a big battle that changes the course maybe do some events and GW stores where you can come in a mimic these scenarios and all that but it would almost have to be race neutral (or at least lend confidence that their race's golden age will come again). I like how blizzard does their expansions for world of warcraft but unfortunately there is no common enemy of the armies in 40k like there is for the races of WoW so it would be tricky to do somthing like that. but yea kill the emperor the space marines go into hiding still loyal to man kind and anti chaos and then perhaps one day theyll stage a similar daring assault and take back holy terra or something like that, I am also no fluff guru so these are just some weak outlines.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I have to admit that i like the idea of a massive upheaval or change in the 40k universe. Turn the established fluff on its head. Change things around and mix them up. The imperium on the back foot would certainly do that. Incorporate a worldwide campaign and i think it would b a great thing.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

I have some sympathy for the idea of a major change, but don't think it should be change for the sake of change or change because they've released a new edition (AEG routinely uses tournaments to determine the progress of Legend of the Five Rings, and every new edition of D&D some bizarre reworking of the Forgotten Realms occurs). I think it would be better if it tied in to something they're already doing. For example: Dark Eldar have not been updated for a -very- long time (the cover of the book says 2nd edition). If GW decided they just weren't going to support DE any more, they could have a "Fall of Comorragh" campaign/tournament where some other faction has found out Comorragh's position in the Webway and how to force a way in (perhaps an overly ambitious raider made the mistake of creating a stable and permanently open gate to assist in conquest of a world). The intel spreads, and you have multiple factions invading to a) destroy the dark eldar b) sieze the webway charts they have c) destroy the webway charts they have so the Maun Keigh etc. can't use them. Have something like a Galactic Empires map of Comorragh and environs, with certain locations having certain effects (taking a defensive battery denies the DE some advantage in that area of the map, or allows the controller to use the guns on a rival faction) and the faction that achieves its goal first (sieze the spire where the charts are held, get a team to power reactors to blow the city, whatever) is the winner. Release a few special edition minis, a rules update in WD, and in future perhaps Chaos Marines have a beachhead in the webway, or the Eldar have recovered a mass of their old technology, and while DE players are unhappy they're not being supported, at least they went down in a blaze of glory, unlike the Squats "Tyranids ate them all. Tough luck that."


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Well the fault with the squats is that they where a joke. I realise some players really loved them and that the Orks in many ways area s much a joke but thats what the squats where. So when it was time to give them the job its hard to have a serious blaze of glory send off for the Cosmic joke.

The goodbye to Dark Eldar idea of yours isnt bad and again at least its progress. I understand the "lets not progress for the sake of progress" but i'm saying "lets move this story forward after how many decades". All 40k has been is a build up towards the inpending doom. The Necrons are awaking, the Tyrnids are coming, Chaos is currupting, the golden throne is failing and NONE OF THIS will EVER EVER happen. Stop teasing and start delivering. 

Do it slowly, gradually (or dramatic and fast if they really want to) but give us a progressive story so we can really get invovled with it. Right now all the wars feel so meaningless cause, win or lose nothing changes.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Necrons awakening would be a good "progress" to tie in with a codex with some big changes (new vehicles, major new unit types - I get the impression that the Necrons are a pretty narrow army at the moment) combined with an "X Crusade" sourcebook or running WD feature. The Eldar no longer have the numbers to put down the Necrontyr and are forced to attempt to formally ally with one or more other factions - Eldar "allies" rules could be added for the duration of that campaign, certain special characters could get an "Experienced" version (Space Marine hero X is horribly wounded in a valiant last stand and is now a special character Dreadnought, Commander Shadowsun gets some nifty (and expensive) new addition to her battle suit (perhaps a power weapon to deal with the Necron "I'll be back" rule, taking after Commander Farsight's involvement in close combat).

The books frequently mention a belief that the Emperor will step down from the Golden Throne at the end of the millenium - a new age of apostacy might be a good idea too. An enormously powerful psyker arises who exhibits some of the same characteristics of the Emperor (he can restrain chaos, generate an astronomican like effect) and claiming to be a) the emperor b) the emperor's son or c) a psychic projection of the emperor allowing him to take a more direct hand in the imperium. The institutions of the Imperium split down the middle, from the High Lords of Terra down to individual regiments of imperial guard, space marine chapters, and teh Tech Priests of Mars. The "New Emperor", whatever he is, is promoting a very different path than before (demystifying technology, tolerance of non-hostile aliens and psykers etc.). The Eldar and Chaos forces are aflurry with portents that may suggest a fifth god is arising, for good or ill. The imperium falls into civil war, aliens take advantage of the disruption to either sieze territory or expand their relationships with the New Emperor's section of the Imperium. Some minor special rule could be implemented to differentiate loyalist vs reactionary Imperium armies (perhaps a loyalist IG command squad could add new regimental advisors - Tau Liason, Eldar Seer, and reactionaries could get some kind of leadership bonus because they're fanatics, or reintroduce explosive collars on penal legions). GW used to make sourcebooks like "Eye of Terror Campaign Guide" and "Sabbat Crusades Campaign Guide"), and having a guide for whatever new event with periodic WD support could be good.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> I have to admit that i like the idea of a massive upheaval or change in the 40k universe. Turn the established fluff on its head. Change things around and mix them up. The imperium on the back foot would certainly do that. Incorporate a worldwide campaign and i think it would b a great thing.


After reading the first few books of the Horus Heresy and the overall view of the Great Crusade, it shows how the Imperium used to be so powerful, yet now teeters on destruction...:victory:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

The whole point of the 40k universe is that it never really changes, its just a frame work for you the player to write your own take on the future, the imperium is just a stagnant backdrop its constantly in decline but also constantly expanding,ultimately its you the owner of the army and your friends that decide what happens next,why it happened and what comes next.
Besides GW will never make broad stroke changes because they are a company whos most sucessful game has been kicking around for 25 years and they have done very little to tamper with it. Im quite pleased that in the last couple of years GW has started to actually invent totally new units and vehicles instead of simply rehashing epic models.
I knida think GW have made a rod for their own back with some of the black libary fiction, alot of people's vision of 40k is based in the heresy era and many feel its very unrealistic for the human race to basically do nothing for 10000 years and i agree, but alot of the fluff that was written 20 odd years ago wasnt expected to still be in use 20 odd years later, if they thought for a second that people were going to take the game seriously they may have thought twice about the whole chapter being 1000 marines rubbish, back in the day a 40k army might be 30 men strong so 1000 marines sounded like all the men in the world, but in reality some players own a chapter of marines, and realistically 1000 marines would struggle in todays theater of war let alone in 38000 years time.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Thats the point though. 20 years ago nothing progressed. What I mean by that is all the TV show storylines never changed. M.A.S.H never got better or worse, Gillain's lot on his isalnd never really changes, the first Generation transfer series always remained the same after every ep. Progressive storys just didnt happen back then.

That was then, this is now. I say make 40k better, fix the stupid shit that needs fixing and give us some progression. Its already of note that some of the gothic horror has dropped (certainly not all).

Will GW do this? Probably not, like you said its profitable and it works, but that doesnt mean they shouldn't and that we shouldn't ask.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I'd actually say the stale fluff is down to GW's target gamers, things like the Eisenhorn books were written when GW was a gaming company run by gamers, and there target audience was more mature players.

now that the audience is 12yr olds with rich parents all they need to do is churn out rubbish stories about people being blown to pieces time and time again by SPESS MAHREENS, while making the basic core fluff easier to read and making it less important to the background of 40k.

heck what could be simpler than "these are SPESS MAHREENS these are Orks, they fight, things go boom and die, the SPESS MAHREENS like a man called Emperor, hes really cool and stuff, Orks however are green and like red stuff, there might be other armies too, but there not SPESS MAHREENS"


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

pretty interesting discussion going on, lots of good thoughts everybody.

this is why you should venture on down to the Roleplay threads where we make our own stories with real character development and action!! lol.

As mentioned, If i was GW i would also be a little afraid of making a significant change. teh reason being becuase pretty much whatever the change is, will piss off a part of the fan base, thus losing fans and probably not gaining any more but onyl the higher favor of past players.

As bits and kits pointed out, the 40k universe is set up to be like hell basically. It is set up so that players can make up whatever they want to for their army (except renegade black templars...never). they can make up whatever they for however LONG they want.

the story is moving along though it may be very slow. but it moved too fast then new players would have a harder tiem grasping what the hell is going on. though i suppose you could just say, well they will just ahve to deal with it for a little while.

As far as making the Tau race or something the 'main' army, or the biggest hitter in the galaxy probably wouldnt go over as well as having the Imperium take that spot. the Imperium is made up of all humans so it easy to relate to them and so makes for great starting armies for many new players while they slowly learn about the alien races.

Also, space marines really should remain the poster boys for GW. They 're awesome, bad ass, well fluffed creations that have kept people coming for 40k's entire existence; even if a few of its more veteran fans disagree.

I'd rather see GW aim for spoiled rich 12 year olds than risk losing such a vast universe entirely


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Why don't the spoilt 12 year olds get spoilt into some decent education, then they can understand the more advanced fluff that most of us love.


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

The should do a series on the manchurian crusade, their is barely any fluff on it and yet it is pushed as one of the greatest moments of the imperium, post-heresy.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

arhain said:


> The should do a series on the manchurian crusade, their is barely any fluff on it and yet it is pushed as one of the greatest moments of the imperium, post-heresy.


because they want you to take that idea and make it your own.

set up a campaign with some common players or friends who play. GW has given you the bones of the campaign, use it to create something.

if you are only interested in the fluff and dont really play, then you could always take a shot at writing your own fiction about it if you like writing.

And if you wouldnt mind posting it up fomr some otehrs to read over, thats what the homebrew fluff forum is for


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Why don't the spoilt 12 year olds get spoilt into some decent education, then they can understand the more advanced fluff that most of us love.


because there too busy having sex and texting, there are more important things in this world than knowing how to read for todays generation.


unxpekted22 said:


> that have kept people coming for 40k's entire existence; even if a few of its more veteran fans disagree.


I'd disagree because space marines never interested me when I started, so it goes by my experience, I told the guy trying to sell them to me I didn't like them because they looked like Tonka toys, I still feel the same today, I only ended up doing them because they were the only army I could afford to buy.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

God im sick of space marine loyalists....All i saw a gw today was SPAZ MARINEZ all over the tables....The Ultrasmurfs they BURRRRN!!!! (no really i was watching necrons school them) Anyhow, It would seem games workshop currently has the balance between Spaz marines and Mature gamer's in both fluff and game. (hell i made a guy my age get mad when he found out im going to have my thousand son's Ripping space wolves apart)


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting discussion.

Having played since RT, I think the fluff has moved forward, quite a bit. I think some things will never change but there is change there. 

I can see and hopefully illustrate this to you.

1). Artwork change of theme and color.

Take a look at this..
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/SvPL-ePcf1I/AAAAAAAABDo/9uZwS1Oh1sY/s800/imp_lg.jpg

and

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lpL870wV2A4/RiPlvygVRyI/AAAAAAAAAwA/WKNQIlyW_aQ/s400/Rogue_trader.jpg

Both images are typical RT era images, the second is iconic... but whats happening in both pictures?

The Imperium is fighting... and winning.... soundly. You cannot see the enemy in either picture. They are around... in the second one albeit surrounded but they (orks obviously) are pushed back out of the sight of the viewer... in the first... the guardsmen are almost on a walk through the park.. as titans move behind them and they are fighting chaos... or traitors.

The guardsmen are smiling... they are off to an easy win.

Even when the Imperium fails... the artwork is showing victory... 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Srw6dXuv95I/AAAAAAAAA-o/V7rSvjVS8C4/s640/commisarlg.jpg

The triumphant commissar even over his dead companion. moving forward.. the enemy are nowhere to be seen.

But take a look as time marches on...

would the average player say the imperium was so bright today? take a look at the front of the guard codex today.... you have dead men... the pictures have changed all to greys.... the imperium is failing...

Until 5th edition...

There was no flicker in the astronomicon...

The golden throne was not failing...

The Imperium was forcing her opponents back...

The Imperium was strong, robust.... albiet even more accepting of abhumans... hell chaos beastmen were a troop choice for guard! 

Imperial guardsmen used jet bikes... space marines used jet bikes... Imperial guardsmen used land raiders... robots strode the fields of battle...

its fading...

the dying of the light, the end. The Imperium has changed, you can see it in the art itself... from bright winning bold colours to the dark gothic of the 5th edition. (I admit happily times have changed, in fact 2nd ed tyranids looked like they should be on mardi gras floats they were that colorful).

But the fluff is changing slowly. Its just slower than most would like.

As for what I think...

GW won't change its stance... until a major shift happens in the company.. either dwindling profits... or market upheveal... lets face it, they have the market sown up and thats unliekly to change soon. So... they will continue down this path, making it darker and darker for the Imperium, but the light won't go out... now if some company came along with something wow! and challenged GW... then they have a reason to change marketing strategy and push the game forward. But that will take time. The last major change to the company was the early 90's... when they almost went under... they changed from a clunky war game to something more mainstream and friendlier for the average 14 year old. They will continue that strategy until it fails.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> because there too busy having sex and texting


Its called sexting Stella, god get with the times!

I think theres 2 aspects here. There is the 40k fluffiverse, and 40k the game. The fluffiverse being information from the codex's and books and all that. I think it would be interesting to see historical events more flushed out. And books that push the time line forward would be great too (but not as canon, moreso just as interesting works of fictional fiction)

But at the end of the day, for the sake of the game, the whole "only war" situation is the point. Trying to change that would be like sitting down to a game of monopoly only to complain that the whole capitalism thing is a bit stale. 

Of course, the beauty of the openess of 40k is that you can really create anything you want. You must find and embrace the fluffiness in you. If you want to build some ragtag Imperial army thats been oppressed by the Tau? Do it! Valiant Chaos army protecting the universe from the scourge of the Necrons? Do it!

So, um, I spose the bullet point here is: The universe is very broad and very open, so that you can essentially create anything you want, those preventing staleness.


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the idea of moving the 40K universe forward is a good one but only in terms of fluff. It seems to me that the fluff and the tabletop game tends to be linked and any big changes in fluff could affect the tabletop game ie the annihilation of the DE would then, in theory make the DE redundant in the game other than being some remnant pirate force or whatever. And it would be amazing to have the Emp come back to lead the scattered/lost Primarchs and their Legions in the great Final battle or see the Necron regain their full powers and fornicate everything up but then what happens afterwards? We have all this amazing fluff and the stories gone somewhere but at the end of the days theres going to be no this race or that Army.

So really at the end of the day there is only ever going to be war and short of some massive turnaround in GW profits we arent guna see any real advancment in the storyline or major changes


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> because there too busy having sex and texting, there are more important things in this world than knowing how to read for todays generation.
> 
> 
> > thats a low blow i know there are a lot of people who are idiots but there are actually a lot of younger people that do actually enjoy the game, my cousins twelve collects lizardmen is scared as hell of girls and doesn't understand them (who does), and he doesn't have a phone, but he is a better speller, reader and painter then his dad so what you said is not true.


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

A few posts here had expressed concerns that a "Fall of the Imperium" event would be no fun for the Space Marines and Guard players...

Speaking as a pure IG player, I say that such an event would be an epic opportunity for the Guard to demonstrate to the various foul xenos and heretics that even without the guiding light of the Astronomicon, our homeworlds will NOT fall  

Its all about how you phrase it. Release a ruleset that says "Guard and Space Marines bend over and get pounded" and we'll be disappointed/bitter. Release a ruleset that says "Guard and Space Marines in super-awesome-but-futile-last-stands-against-overwhelming-odds" and it'll be awesome, even if the 'crunch' is essentially the same in both cases. 

Plus, we all know that the death of the Emperor gives you foul aliens and daemons a limited window of opportunity (like 10 years max) before the Emperor's soul is reborn into a non-crippled form and you're all repaid for your treachery


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I know with my own suggestion the "fall of the Imperium" doesn't mean "The Imperium falls over and is wiped out". Its about taking these so called darkest days and making them darkest. Its about having the Imperium actually crumbling as all hell breaks loose. But that doesnt have to be the end of the story, one can argue its just the beginning.

The Emperors death, the Tau rise, the Tynards rampaging and the increase of the Necron threat all make for challenging times, but can the Space Marines hold the Imperium together? Which side in the war of succesion will the Imperial Guard choose? This isnt a story about the Imerpiums final ass pounding, this is the story of the Imperiums survival against all odds.


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## Argitist (Apr 29, 2008)

Well then, keep 40k, and make another table top game, warhammer future, or something.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Argitist said:


> Well then, keep 40k, and make another table top game, warhammer future, or something.


How about warhammer fantasy battle ? think of it, imagine if you will 40k but set in a alternate universe were technology is very basic, "space marines" willl ride on animals and wear non powered metal armour,maybe something like steel but will still have things like swords and hammers and shields, but "bolters" will be "cross bows" but they still fire "bolts". They will still be able to field a tank or two , but instead of nuclear power source it will be steam,which is the new dangerous power of the day.

this is good stuff i should write a letter with my ideas on to GW at once


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Shit bro, whilst your there ask them to include some Eldar who like wearing robes and riding beasties....oh and we could say some squats managed to avoid being eaten and now live under mountains. Lordy this stuff is gold!


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Long Live the Ground Squats!!!:victory:

sorry couldn't help my self :grin:


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

I want a series of books outlining the orks, punching things in the face and or yelling. I'd read 200 pages of that.


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## JDMJapan (Jan 3, 2010)

You said a bit stale, so I thought you meant like
In the far future there is only........
Space Marine Farmers!
Imperial Guard Wal Mart store managers
Ork Chefs!
Tyrinid Hunters!
Tau Scientists!
And........ Necron iPods!
....................... Ya GW, stick with all out war.....


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

GWLlosa said:


> A few posts here had expressed concerns that a "Fall of the Imperium" event would be no fun for the Space Marines and Guard players...
> 
> Speaking as a pure IG player, I say that such an event would be an epic opportunity for the Guard to demonstrate to the various foul xenos and heretics that even without the guiding light of the Astronomicon, our homeworlds will NOT fall
> 
> ...


I think I agree with this. It's all in how they present it.


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## ShadowMatt (Sep 9, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Shit bro, whilst your there ask them to include some Eldar who like wearing robes and riding beasties....oh and we could say some squats managed to avoid being eaten and now live under mountains. Lordy this stuff is gold!


Surely the Necrons will degrade/evolve back to an organic form and wander the Old World in search of braaiinnnns. They are just metal zombies after all.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Lets hope that GW doesn't deceide to run a large campaign which effects fluff as they always seem to screw it up. Anyone familar with the fantasy storm of chaos campaign? not only did that screw up fluff but also wrecked the fantasy timeline (WoC book is set before the storm others are after) 

The trouble is the endings generally are big disapointments and that that could really get worse in 40k eg G throne breaks/ earth destroyed/ emperor killed = no astronomican = end of imperium due to no warp drives = not going to happen

They are however adding newer short bits of fluff in the newer codexes the nid codex suggest the craftworld eldar geting new toys soon, the threat of Jorgmandr (phil must have been happy when his hive fleet got that!) the dark eldar are even metioned in a couple of places. I think they just need to focus more on the plight of the imperium and show just how truly screwed it is rather than the look we always win space marine approach 

There maybe only war but the galaxy is a big place so plenty of space for "personal fluff" which is generally better than the 12 yr old target fluff anyway


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

agreed Barnster.

If they were to do some sort of apocalyptic fluff point it would have to be something that seemed world ending then ends up brief. Like for some a huge warp storm takes place cutting off communication and travel for all races (except the Tau non warp space using bastards!). During this time the warp fluctuates so for this brief time everyone is on their own as the race to try and figure a way to survive. So they could have a supplment book written that for however many months they want this campaign to go the rules are slightly changed to relfect this horrible event. Then they could just have the warp calm down again and order be restored. It could happen


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