# GW responds to the Outrage



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Games Workshop's web team responded to the furious mass of people spamming their Facebook page. Original message can be found here.



> Hi everyone,
> 
> Well, we can see that there are quite a few of you with strong feelings about several issues, and the threads have gone a little crazy. We’re sorry many of you feel frustrated. We have read all of your comments and because we (the web dudes) don’t have the power to act on any of them, be assured that we have passed your comments on to the higher levels of management in GW.
> 
> ...


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

In other words we aint doin shit


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, sadly. At least the web team is being classy.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I doubt the web guys would be able to do anything, so they've sent the comments upstairs to those who can do something. It's the way it works everywhere, can't shoot the messenger! :victory:


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

GW letter to customers

Dear Valued Customers

Fuck You 

Sincerly
GW


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

This might be the first step towards a better future...


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

maybe or they just might say oh well deal with folks. only time will tell. With the amount hatred they have had come their way they may be more inclined to something about. This can show that their may be a huge negative impact on their sales.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Considering the amount of abuse they're taking at the moment (oddly not directed at Matt Ward) I wouldn't blame them if they did! If I got a letter like that I'd frame it and still continue to play! :biggrin:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The Web team is probably a group of 4 under-paid 6th former students anyway.

They must of been anticipating that they would be first in the firing line, as that statement is very generic.

I HOPE, GW listen...this will upset ALOT of people.


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## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

Orochi said:


> The Web team is probably a group of 4 under-paid 6th former students anyway.


This. So much this. +rep.

The reply was pretty decent, they didn't try and end all discussion but they also didn't encourage pointless bitching. To be honest given these are low paid wageslaves probably working just for a staff discount what more could they have said. The lame bit is that they didn't see this rage coming and have a response planned, that does fall on the shoulders of the higher ups.


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## MrPete (Mar 5, 2011)

Or in other words - 
We're Games Workshop, suck it up.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well at least it's an honest "We don't give a shite", as opposed to the "We're restricting sales to the EU so as to secure the future of the the hobby and its community" bullshit I was expecting.


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## Templarbootytime (Apr 19, 2011)

The phasing out of metal models is 50/50 with me. I love the feel of the metal models but hate having to prep them sometimes. The cost increase is rather opportunistic I think, at least without a explanation as to why. I understand the volatility of metal pricing has probably bite into GW expected margins of profit quite a bit so moving to resin must have shown some savings? From what I understand resin moulds are not as durable as metal moulds and need changing more often? I could be wrong. I very nice compromise to this would be a price DEcrease in the squad kits and everything kit form and then the increase in the "Finecast" models. I find paying $50.00 for 5 terminators a bit unnerving, but of course, have paid...


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

The only thing that will teach them a lesson is to boycott the stuff. Go to the local GW stores and get people to peacefully assemble as well as holding placards stating that you are tired of being screwed. Or suck it up cause the only other thing to do is walk away. 
The ones I feel really bad for are the Aussies, but fuck them anyway, as they live in such a beautiful place they should be outside anyways.:biggrin: (just kiddin) If anyone is getting properly fucked it is them.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Doelago said:


> This might be the first step towards a better future...


But in the future there is only war.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

My boycott has begun, not that I really had any choice. 

PS: Fuck Matt Ward.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Doelago said:


> This might be the first step towards a better future...





nogginthenog said:


> But in the future there is only war.


nonono, the *GRIM* *DARKNESS* *OF* the future... 

besides, this is just the tech team's polite way of saying, "we can do fuck all about this, so quit spamming our page!"

CP


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

You've gotta admit, you can't expect the Web Team to be able to do anything about it.

Really the fact that they passed it on to Management at all is encouraging for me (after all, I was one of those few who bitched on their Facebook page :wink


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

Commissar Ploss said:


> nonono, the *GRIM* *DARKNESS* *OF* the future...
> 
> besides, this is just the tech team's polite way of saying, "we can do fuck all about this, so quit spamming our page!"
> 
> CP


Nonono Its, In the grim darkness of the *Far* future there is only war :victory:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree that the webteam can do shit all about any of this. I just hope the upper echelons of GW are going to pay attention from this and do something about it so it is more lenient anyways.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

OK, so how about for like a month or two, starting now, everyone on Heresy should boycott buying GW products?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Never work ... we are the vets that they do not care about. They want new young blood in the stores, not us.


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> OK, so how about for like a month or two, starting now, everyone on Heresy should boycott buying GW products?


No. Boycotting for a month or two will not work, because it's transparently obvious that you're just displacing your purchases backwards or forwards. The only way a boycott will work is if you don't buy GW products _ever again_, until GW reverses the decision.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

The web guys likely agree with us but as has been said...they cant do squat but tow the company line if they want to keep their jobs. The boycott while having the potential to work won't because there isn't enough of us talking about it to do any good or effect thier bottom line. Sure you might be able to mobilize your local gaming crew and effect one store but all this would do would be to possiblely caus eit to close. This results in some poor sap losing his job in this global economy, and a loss of a store to play at. Really we all need to make our own peace and decide what to do individually. I do believe that continued increases like this will eventually kill them but not yet.


Doc


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Egging their main building might get their attention.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

might also get us arrested...lol.

Doc


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## rawrgh (May 28, 2010)

AlexHolker said:


> No. Boycotting for a month or two will not work, because it's transparently obvious that you're just displacing your purchases backwards or forwards. The only way a boycott will work is if you don't buy GW products _ever again_, until GW reverses the decision.


it can work if you do it at the right time dropping sales figures at half year / full year financials coulds have a significant effect on the company


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

hungryugolino said:


> Egging their main building might get their attention.


I designed that building, please don't!


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

well...in the time being i MAY buy some more GW stuffs before the price hike/increase (its going to be what a 40% increase?)

GW's current trend is isolating them into being a regional store that has world wide "power"

i havent been into the gaming side of the hobby until recently (2 years now) and im looking at other companies seriously or just buying new armybooks/codexs/game editions for the foreseeable future.

i fear that i will no longer be able to have any "spur of the moment" shopping at all for GW products at the FLGS' i play at.

and this definitely kills off any chance or thoughts i may have with dabbling with a new army - which ive been kicking around between a few.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

that building prolly so big it wouldnt even work right. If ya wanna do something like an evil prank we get and assload of toliet paper and wrap that bad boy up.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

It's nice to see this acknowledged, but really, there wasn't anything that the web-team could do about it but send a word up to management. Chances are slim that anything will happen now. As for a boycott, an internet movement like this probably won't get enough people, just hope other vets feel the same way and don't buy anything.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think getting a monkey to throw shit at it would be funny as hell.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

hungryugolino said:


> Egging their main building might get their attention.





TheSpore said:


> that building prolly so big it wouldnt even work right. If ya wanna do something like an evil prank we get and assload of toliet paper and wrap that bad boy up.





Stephen_Newman said:


> I think getting a monkey to throw shit at it would be funny as hell.


Very mature you guys, everyone knows this doesn't do any good. On the other hand, massed urination on the walls of GW works much better. Now, @ Rev, since you designed the building, how many people would it take to surround the building and maybe we could organize a urinatory protest.


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

just one person urinating at the entrance every night would leave a hard-to-get-rid-off odor for a long time.


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## HereticHammer01 (Apr 29, 2011)

The web team didn't respond badly but the important thing is to see what GW does. Then the mass urination can commence...perhaps.


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

Only thing I have to say is that GW wont be ignoring people for being too hysterical. It is not the content of disappointed letters that matter to a business. It is the volume of the letters. When a ton of people get pissed at a company a company takes notice. People may be personally ignored, but collectively the sheer volume of disappointed letters is what GW is going to be looking at. There isn't someone from GW scanning every detail of each letter to ensure that the customer writing the letter seems level headed. LOST MONEY IS LOST MONEY whether its lost from an internet troll, a lifetime GW customer, or a lifetime GW customer that happens to be a troll. 

Im not saying that I condone violent threatening letters, but assuming that a business has the luxury of "being the bigger man" and ignoring disappointed customers with a chip on their shoulder is ridiculous because at the end of the day GW doesn't care who you are they just want your money.

Im taking a break from 40k...again... The only chance you have of altering the course of events taking place in GW is to simply stop buying their product, and tell your friends to stop buying their product and their friends.

I personally will be taking the money I planned on using for GW products this year, and spending it on one of their competitors.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Very mature you guys, everyone knows this doesn't do any good. On the other hand, massed urination on the walls of GW works much better. Now, @ Rev, since you designed the building, how many people would it take to surround the building and maybe we could organize a urinatory protest.





ashikenshin said:


> just one person urinating at the entrance every night would leave a hard-to-get-rid-off odor for a long time.





HereticHammer01 said:


> The web team didn't respond badly but the important thing is to see what GW does. Then the mass urination can commence...perhaps.


:laugh: That could seriously work.

Its amazing the attention this is getting tho. In the past few price Hikes and GW shinanigans we bent over and accepted it. It seems GW finnaly pushed us over the edge by fuking the Down Under and giving us ANOTHER outragious price hike! 

If this line of thinking keeps up GW will be forced to come out from under their blankets.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Well nothing we can do.............Less someone wants to start recruitments for a proper Inquisition so we can go acuse the ppl there of Heresy


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Its amazing the attention this is getting tho. In the past few price Hikes and GW shinanigans we bent over and accepted it. It seems GW finnaly pushed us over the edge by fuking the Down Under and giving us ANOTHER outragious price hike!


 
Really? I seem to remember this happening about 2 years ago, and definately 6 years ago.

Me thinks some people have short memories...


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

TheReverend said:


> I designed that building, please don't!


So you have blueprints, eh? *walks of cackling maniacally, schemeing his nefarious schemes*

But seriously, it's nice to seem that at least some notice is being taken. What remains to be seen is their next move. Which I imagine will be nothing, but hey, they might just suprise us.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

The web team have basically given themselves permission to delete all further complaints and therefore create the impression all is well...so no...GW have not listened as there will be nothing to listen to - genius!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

You are all sounding like one huge group of Stellas. If you would actually LOOK at the price increases you would see that they are bringing the box sets that have not been increased up to where the rest of the box sets who have come out recently are at.

Since 1996 ever damn time GW says something about prices going up the chicken littles of the forum run around calling that the sky is falling and then 3 months down the road they are the same ones still playing. 

The only folks I really feel bad about it the Aussies and Kiwis who are the ones who are truly getting fucked over by yesterdays announcement. They can no longer order from other places and must pay double what the rest of us are for their items.

This is still a very cheap hobby. You should try playing CCGs or remote control cars, that can get really expensive. $500 for something that you may have to buy an update for once every 5 or 6 years? That shit is cheap. I have seen people saying that prices are going up by 40%? Holy shit not even remotely true. There are a couple battalion box sets that are going up $20 to bring them in line what what the modern battalion box sets are selling at. A majority of the box sets that are going up are only going up .75 to a couple bucks.

And about the fine scale, how about we wait to see if there are resculpts before we bitch about them.


/rant off


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

slaaneshy said:


> The web team have basically given themselves permission to delete all further complaints and therefore create the impression all is well...so no...GW have not listened as there will be nothing to listen to - genius!


Not really, they have said that they are leaving the threads open for people to continue the discussion, but have asked if those same people could refrain from spamming new threads. 

To be honest I don't think I have ever seen a backlash against GW like this before. Sure, there have been grumbles and moans but most of them have been from people who like to grumble and moan and are never happy unless GW are giving stuff away. 
Maybe it was how close together everything was, Fine Cast, the embargo and then the price hike all within a couple of days. 
Many of the people complaining now were the same people defending GW in the past, I think it is a matter of this time they have gone too far. People are pissed off and will take it out on the people they see as responsible, GW. 

With almost any other company on earth if there were about to be price hikes there would be an explanation and possibly an apology to go with the increased dent in your wallet. Instead GW hit you with an embargo and the happy news that they have recast some old minis in resin and want to charge you more for them, hooray!

Oh well, letter posted today supporting those who got shafted.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> The web team have basically given themselves permission to delete all further complaints and therefore create the impression all is well...so no...GW have not listened as there will be nothing to listen to - genius!


This is a misinterpretation. They're just saying to keep the comments constructive, and not make tons of inflammatory remarks, something any webteam must enforce. If all the comments are doing is saying that GW needs to suck a fuck, then the webteam is obligated, and justified, in removing those comments.


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

yup, just like any forum moderator actually.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I have to admit this time Ive never seen such a negative reaction towards GW.


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## Terabyt3 (Jul 17, 2009)

The price hikes are atrocious. The resin should be a shed load cheaper to produce after initial set up and the casts should last longer. 

If these "finecast" were new sculpts I could maybe accept it. But if it's simple re-molds then the only explanations I can think of are a) they're simply being greedy or b) taking into account most people already have the metal versions of these models (so less sales) vs. Cost of resin set up. 

Either way it's a problem to say the least. I'm disgusted at the price hikes overseas I was blissfully unaware at the mark-up in places like Australia! I'd expect some back tracking over the next 12-18 month as the combined effects will no doubt cause profits to fall dramatically (which they argue is the exact opposite of what they are trying to achieve).

Peace out,
Terabyt3!


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I just took a few minutes to view the entire comments section of face book and holy hell GW really messed up this time. I have feeling PP's profits are gonna skyrocket.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> This is still a very cheap hobby.
> 
> /rant off


It's all right, because he really loves me! He just...gets so mad. I'll try not to make him mad anymore...

/batteredwife

Honestly, there's no justification other than "captive audience".


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> I just took a few minutes to view the entire comments section of face book and holy hell GW really messed up this time. I have feeling PP's profits are gonna skyrocket.


i doubt it. some would argue their game sucks the same. I happen to love 40k and will continue to buy... regardless to how much my wallet may scream in agony. 

CP


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Commissar Ploss said:


> i doubt it. some would argue their game sucks the same. I happen to love 40k and will continue to buy... regardless to how much my wallet may scream in agony.
> 
> CP


IDK man between supporting my family and paying off bills Im not sure I can even afford to buy GW stuff anymore. hey I know PP isn't anymore cheaper when you think about it. But at least they have been a lil more nicer to their customers. 

Its just Ive seen peopel get angry towards GW in the past for a price hike but from the research and analysis ive done so far it trully looks like this is gonna be final blow to them.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Commissar Ploss said:


> i doubt it. some would argue their game sucks the same. I happen to love 40k and will continue to buy... regardless to how much my wallet may scream in agony.
> 
> CP


Well were some say it sucks, others say its awesome and start. Like my entire local friendly game store. After playing my first game I have to say it's very fun and starting an army is much cheaper then 40k. Starting a warmachine army cost me 100 dollars (without buying a starter pack) while a gw troop choice (including a rhino) cost me nearly 100 dollars (or if playing sisters of battle 150 dollars). Some people will switch, others won't. The fact is that people are switching.

Will this be the end of GW? Probably not.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Its just Ive seen peopel get angry towards GW in the past for a price hike but from the research and analysis ive done so far it trully looks like this is gonna be final blow to them.


I promised in another thread that I would eat my cat if I was wrong. I have two cats - I will eat the other cat if people are still bitching about this in a month.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> I promised in another thread that I would eat my cat if I was wrong. I have two cats - I will eat the other cat if people are still bitching about this in a month.


I really love cats...but...I might keep adding something everyday for like 29 days just to get you worrying....lol

Doc


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> I really love cats...but...I might keep adding something everyday for like 29 days just to get you worrying....lol
> 
> Doc


Well that would be a PERSON bitching - I said people. :laugh:


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> GW letter to customers
> 
> Dear Valued Customers
> 
> ...


Oh you mean this?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=16600002a


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Azkaellon said:


> Oh you mean this?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=16600002a


Honestly - that has to be the worst worded, least thought out announcements in the history of mankind...

sigh.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Honestly - that has to be the worst worded, least thought out announcements in the history of mankind...
> 
> sigh.


That it is but its pretty fucking funny.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

:threaten:

hahhahhaahahahahahhahha...I can't even be mad at that..hahahahhahahaa
Par for the course.

Doc


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

> This month we will be increasing the price of some of our products. This price change will take effect from May 28th.


They forgot to put ' So fuck you' at the end though.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Well they have learnt from their mistakes - they publicly released the price increase for canada/US and look at what happened.

In the UK they just tell us the price is going up - I susspect they hope that people wont remember how much they used to be and thus wont notice next time they go into the shop.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

id feel better if they at least said sorry in the announcement, the way its kind of just thrown out there, feels like a slap in the face for no reason. their problem is they have a good product, and they know it, so they can sell it for whatever they want, thats their right. they just need a strong competitor, a business that steals their business. the same thing happens with pretty much anything else, when you own a monopoly. the only threat is another company making something comparable.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> They forgot to put ' So fuck you' at the end though.


No no - its in white - you have to highlight the page in order to see it.




(go on - admit it, someone actually tried it...)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Huh?....... So GW doesn't give a fuck? Really? Mm, that's interesting. Well, anyone else got anything new and different? No? Alright. (goes back and orders some more infinity.)


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> They forgot to put ' So fuck you' at the end though.


Thats going out in there mass emails im sure.:laugh:


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

OK for the people who are saying that the resins are cheaper, you're not correct. Resin itself is cheaper to buy then pewter. That is where it stops. For those who are talking out of your ass with nothing to back up with here you go, get some edumacation (misspelling on purpose).

1. Pewter molds are 2 piece molds that resemble a cake. It is 2 pieces of rubber with a bunch of metal balls scattered through out with the negative carved into the rubber. This is loaded into the centrifugal casting machine (costs about $15,000 with smelt etc) and is spun at a high RPM, while it is spinning the machine releases the pewter which goes into the negatives and the model is then cast. Almost as quickly as you can pull the cake out you can break it apart and dump the models. Any large flash, miscasts, etc can be recycled and placed back into the smelt so there is virtually zero loss from the model. You can also finish 2 to 3 sets of models per minute, a typical mold can hold up to 10 models.

2. Resin casting. The process of resin casting it to use a 2 piece mold much like the metal molds, the difference is the mold is fed by gravity with large air vents to allow the material to pour into to fill all areas of the mold. Typically resin takes 3 to 7 minutes to dry. Molds for resin casting are also made from a much softer rubber material that tends to wear out much quicker which means that new molds must be made more often and the rubber molds are NOT cheap. Also before you could make 15-30 of a certain model per minutes you can only make X times ~5 minutes, X being the number of molds you have for a certain model, so production takes a LOT longer. Now factor in that you have to pressurize all of the molds to ensure there are little no no air bubbles which slows the process down and adds a cog in. Lastly all of the overpour and larger airvents can not simply be melted down, they are now waste. Also if there are any mispours they are loss instead of being recycled.

So while the raw material is much cheaper everything else costs much more. People may call me a know it all, I call it knowing what the hell I am talking about.

Also there are in fact reports that some of the masters have had details added to them for the new Fine Cast lines. These are to be taken with a grain of salt though.




TheSpore said:


> Its just Ive seen peopel get angry towards GW in the past for a price hike but from the research and analysis ive done so far it trully looks like this is gonna be final blow to them.


In the day and a half since the announcement? I call bullshit on this. *If people would READ the damn price increase its not everything going up, its a few select items and its is bringing it in line with other products of the same type!*



Maidel said:


> Honestly - that has to be the worst worded, least thought out announcements in the history of mankind...
> 
> sigh.


How so? Said exactly what needed to be said, do you want them to fill it with flowery bullshit.



laviathan13089 said:


> id feel better if they at least said sorry in the announcement, the way its kind of just thrown out there, feels like a slap in the face for no reason. their problem is they have a good product, and they know it, so they can sell it for whatever they want, thats their right. they just need a strong competitor, a business that steals their business. the same thing happens with pretty much anything else, when you own a monopoly. the only threat is another company making something comparable.


Why the hell would a business ever apologies when they have to raise costs to cover business expenses? This is something that happens every year, if you play this game, get used to it.



gen.ahab said:


> Huh?....... So GW doesn't give a fuck? Really? Mm, that's interesting. Well, anyone else got anything new and different? No? Alright. (goes back and orders some more infinity.)


GW is a fucking business. With everything going up, really does it shock you that their prices are going up? Hell across the board things have been going up from CCGs, to the rest of the modeling lines. Several other games have discontinued some of their models until a date TBD because of the costs and they are not able to switch to resin because of how much it costs to get things swapped over.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

So other than the possible (unlikely) re sculpts/added bits on the minis what is the main selling point of GW switching to resin?

For the switch to be a logical move for GW there must be some gain in the switch, whether it's reduced costs, increased detail (meaning added value) or something I haven't thought of. 
If this new resin is more expensive to produce than metals then why switch? 
It doesn't speed up production, it slows it down so no gain there. There is the uphill battle of convincing people that this resin is non toxic (I know it will be but a lot of people seem to be struggling with the concept). 

I could understand the switch if it was due to the rising price of tin and resin was cheaper, but with the added production time (costs) it's more expensive. Add to that the volatile finacial situation we are all in this seems like an incredibly poorly thought out move on GW's part. 

If resin is cheaper than pewter then pass on the savings, if it's more expensive then stick with metal and leave the pricing alone.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

The issue is Tin is not going to go down anytime longer and with resin they can add details to older models that they were not able to do with resin.

They are also no longer putting them in blisters, they will be boxed now.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> OK for the people who are saying that the resins are cheaper, you're not correct. Resin itself is cheaper to buy then pewter. That is where it stops. For those who are talking out of your ass with nothing to back up with here you go, get some edumacation (misspelling on purpose).
> 
> 1. Pewter molds are 2 piece molds that resemble a cake. It is 2 pieces of rubber with a bunch of metal balls scattered through out with the negative carved into the rubber. This is loaded into the centrifugal casting machine (costs about $15,000 with smelt etc) and is spun at a high RPM, while it is spinning the machine releases the pewter which goes into the negatives and the model is then cast. Almost as quickly as you can pull the cake out you can break it apart and dump the models. Any large flash, miscasts, etc can be recycled and placed back into the smelt so there is virtually zero loss from the model. You can also finish 2 to 3 sets of models per minute, a typical mold can hold up to 10 models.
> 
> ...


Yeah ... what he said but more of it you fuckers!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> GW is a fucking business. With everything going up, really does it shock you that their prices are going up? Hell across the board things have been going up from CCGs, to the rest of the modeling lines. Several other games have discontinued some of their models until a date TBD because of the costs and they are not able to switch to resin because of how much it costs to get things swapped over.


Did I say it did, skippy? No. Now calm the fuck down. I never said it was surprising, uncalled for, or bad in any way. Yes, when I first heard about it I was miffed, however, I realize they need to make money and I don't blame them, but that doesnt mean I am going to pay for the new costs. See, some of us have to pay for school, which can get rather pricey, and spending vasts amounts of money on plastic crack simply isn't in the question. So, in summation, get off it.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Did I say it did, skippy? No. Now calm the fuck down. I never said it was surprising, uncalled for, or bad in any way. Yes, when I first heard about it I was miffed, however, I realize they need to make money and I don't blame them, but that doesnt mean I am going to pay for the new costs. See, some of us have to pay for school, which can get rather pricey, and spending vasts amounts of money on plastic crack simply isn't in the question. So, in summation, get off it.


No but you made it sound like they should really give a damn what you have to say or think about this. You are the one QQing on a forum on how butt hurt you are that they are raising prices and you are going to run and play another game.

So take your skippy and shove it sideways. Don't like it, quit crying in public, take your new models, go down to the 'Other System' and make friends down there. The real hobbyists are getting sick of all the bitching and moaning.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

djinn24 said:


> So take your skippy and shove it sideways. Don't like it, quit crying in public, take your new models, go down to the 'Other System' and make friends down there. The real hobbyists are getting sick of all the bitching and moaning.


So don't read it.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

That is why I normally skip your posts Katie.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> No but you made it sound like they should really give a damn what you have to say or think about this. You are the one QQing on a forum on how butt hurt you are that they are raising prices and you are going to run and play another game.
> 
> So take your skippy and shove it sideways. Don't like it, quit crying in public, take your new models, go down to the 'Other System' and make friends down there. The real hobbyists are getting sick of all the bitching and moaning.





Katie Drake said:


> So don't read it.


Hm... Short and to the point, I like it. Anyway, yeah, what she said.

However, you are aware that you are bitching on a forum about me bitching on a forum, right? Seems a bit funny really; apparently only people who agree with you have the right to use this. Well, anyway, good luck with that.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Someone has done a cost analysis on this and thinks that resin is going to be a more cost effective way for GW. This could be so or it might not be so... I honestly do not know. However I can give you a very good analogy of something that I dealt with first hand where I live. 

There is a company here in Canton, Ohio that is very well known for tapered roller bearings. They have four different plants in Canton and actually come to think of it have actually shipped all of the roller bearing shit over to China. They also make special alloy steel in very precise percentages. This is all made from scrap steel that they melt down and add various amounts of tin, aluminum, etc. The scrap steel has been hauled in on rail cars on train tracks since 1981 and was a very effective way to haul large amounts of steel very efficiently.

The VP of this particular plant was actually hired in from another steel manufacturer from Texas and all they made was rebar. Low quality steel. Well down there they were using Euclid trucks ( think of a Tonka truck that is 25' tall ) and that worked fine for that plant. She decided that it would work up here just as well. It did not happen that way. The Eukes can only haul 25% of what a rail car does and it goes through fuel faster than Keith Richards can do a one line gagger. Her cost analysis showed that it was cheaper but the reality of it is so far out that it is not funny, they fired her ass because she cost them so much money. I really hope GW is on the ball with this as we could really have to pay out the nose for the resin models now.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

djinn24 said:


> That is why I normally skip your posts Katie.


... you feeling sensitive today? Seriously, if someone pisses you off, set them to ignore. It makes Heresy a lot more enjoyable.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Well normally gen.ahab I like your posts, and honestly earlier your quote got more hate then it was suppose to on it. But the fact of the matter is this is primarily a 40k forum. We come here because of the lack of whiny melodrama that festers on Warseer and other forums like that. 

Everyone always gets so fucking outraged and shocked when the prices go up, its a yearly thing, has been since I started playing back in 1996.



Katie Drake said:


> ... you feeling sensitive today? Seriously, if someone pisses you off, set them to ignore. It makes Heresy a lot more enjoyable.


Yeah honestly probably, been a long day, foots killing me, and generally just irritated. Just tiring year after year that this same discussion goes on.

Going to take a pain pill and sign off.

So sorry gen for making it seemed like I targeted you, and Katie for generally being an ass to you for no reason.

djinn out.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Someone has done a cost analysis on this and thinks that resin is going to be a more cost effective way for GW. This could be so or it might not be so... I honestly do not know. However I can give you a very good analogy of something that I dealt with first hand where I live.
> 
> There is a company here in Canton, Ohio that is very well known for tapered roller bearings. They have four different plants in Canton and actually come to think of it have actually shipped all of the roller bearing shit over to China. They also make special alloy steel in very precise percentages. This is all made from scrap steel that they melt down and add various amounts of tin, aluminum, etc. The scrap steel has been hauled in on rail cars on train tracks since 1981 and was a very effective way to haul large amounts of steel very efficiently.
> 
> The VP of this particular plant was actually hired in from another steel manufacturer from Texas and all they made was rebar. Low quality steel. Well down there they were using Euclid trucks ( think of a Tonka truck that is 25' tall ) and that worked fine for that plant. She decided that it would work up here just as well. It did not happen that way. The Eukes can only haul 25% of what a rail car does and it goes through fuel faster than Keith Richards can do a one line gagger. Her cost analysis showed that it was cheaper but the reality of it is so far out that it is not funny, they fired her ass because she cost them so much money. I really hope GW is on the ball with this as we could really have to pay out the nose for the resin models now.


:goodpost:

Luckily the worst the will have blown is the initial investment which is pricey is nothing as bad as you described. We shall see.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Totally understand man, no real need to apologize. Honestly my response came off as a little douchy in it's own right. 

Anyway, no harm no fowl.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)




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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

djinn24 said:


> Yeah honestly probably, been a long day, foots killing me, and generally just irritated. Just tiring year after year that this same discussion goes on.
> 
> Going to take a pain pill and sign off.
> 
> ...


Ah, I hear you. Hope you feel better in the morning.


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## mikessin (May 20, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Really? I seem to remember this happening about 2 years ago, and definately 6 years ago.
> 
> Me thinks some people have short memories...


+1 

Also happened after 2nd edition, and it will happen again. This never was an inexpensive hobby.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Quick question. After the quick flameout we just had, is it ok for me still to be pissed about the Giant titanium pineapple that all us aussies, new zealanders and other countries just bent over and received? It still hurts and i don't think we will be able to sit down for a while.

I don't generally complain about price increases. But a price increase on top of something which is already double what it should be, while simultaneously removing any method of avoiding being screwed over and paying double seems to be a little harsh.

I am dedicated to ebay now and one of us is working on a guard army that contains no gw models. This will be a challenge.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> Quick question. After the quick flameout we just had, is it ok for me still to be pissed about the Giant titanium pineapple that all us aussies, new zealanders and other countries just bent over and received? It still hurts and i don't think we will be able to sit down for a while.
> 
> I don't generally complain about price increases. But a price increase on top of something which is already double what it should be, while simultaneously removing any method of avoiding being screwed over and paying double seems to be a little harsh.
> 
> I am dedicated to ebay now and one of us is working on a guard army that contains no gw models. This will be a challenge.


Oh yeah dude, you got fucked. Be as pissed as you like!


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Much appreciated.

:headbutt::suicide:


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

Personally not too concerned about the price increase...its unfair and annoying, but I'll have to deal to play Sisters of Battle with new plastics...eventually.

I am however upset for our Southern Hemisphere bretheren and the rediculous restrictions on online ordering that GW is implementing there, They pay way more than we do here in the US even...and we are included in this fiasco as well.

Wayland won't be able to sell to the US.

GW began as a group of friends with an awesome universe idea, but has become a faceless corporation that cares only for the bottom line. Because there is yet to be another company with a universe with the appeal of the 40k universe...(sorry PP, but you don't have soccer hooligan orcs now do you?) GW has a de facto monopoly in fantasy/sci fi wargaming. Even those that are hardcore Warmachine fans, have or had a GW army.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah you are right when it comes to 40K....there are some fantasy alternatives but no real good 40K one. Unless there is a system out there I am unfamiliar with.


Doc


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Much appreciated.
> 
> :headbutt::suicide:


I share your growing displeasure with GW over AU pricing. However they cannot stop it all.... they cannot watch Ebay all the time or stop the FT agreement we have with the US etc. So I cannot see how they can make this work.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Essentially we are a captive audience, regardless of which part of the globe we live. And we are captive through our own choice. Actually, when people humorously call the product 'plastic crack' they are not far wide of the mark.

GW have an addictive product and like a drug user, we seek to perpetuate the high we get from that addiction. It started from humble beginnings. It started with no competition and remained that way for many a year. Once you are into this you are never truly out of it. You may take a hiatus but sure as the sun rises you will, at some point, dip back in and be hooked all over again.

We use this product to escape from the drudgery of reality, to fuel our imaginations, to indulge our passion for creativeness and some very shrewd businessmen have exploited that passion. The majority of us, will not give up the hobby, regardless of how expensive it becomes. If you have spare cash in your budget you are going to rationalise that it's ok to keep spending it on the product. Sure, we will bitch, and with monotonous regularity, the prices will continue to rise.

Some will leave, but not enough to impact on GW's revenue. The real losers will be those who are trying to get into the hobby, who have to start from scratch. This is without doubt, a luxury product. We are not forced to buy it but many aspire to it and there are enough people out there with money to ensure GW's continuance.

Personally, I would not like to see GW go under and doubt that they will. Aside from the collapse of my passion that would also herald a death knell for a lot of peoples careers...the rank and file of GW are just like you and me. They work to bring home a pay packet...to look after their families...and I am sure, to play with little plastic soldiers themselves.

No, to be sure I would not like to see GW falter, but I would like to see some stabilisation in their prices and a return to the spirit of gaming within the shops instead of them just being showrooms.


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## Cothbarton (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm fairly certain that the main reason for the switch over _is_ the cost (and predicted cost) of tin.

They'd probably be unable to sell it at the prices they'd have to to keep a profit. 
Resin is looking like the lesser of two evils.

Which is still evil, yes. :dunno:


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

You know its would seem that we are all finally starting to calm down and come to the realization that this increase thing although sucks big donkey balls isnt gonna be that bad. Regardless what we wanna think we all love 40k and WH with a high passion and even though I like PP just as much it would never be the same with WH


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Cypher,

I think the question as to whether this change over will hurt their bottom line doesn't fall directly on the consumer who walks away. I believe it will change the buying habits of the consumers who currently shop with the soon-to-be-restricted resellers.

It isn't simply a matter of gamers losing out. The hobby shops, distributors, and online retailers who sold games workshop products will lose the international business. And I'm not sure reducing the overall number of hobby retailers is a good thing. It might be for GW in the short run, but those retailers also represented a level of market penetration (and possibly saturation) that GW doesn't have on its own.

I'm curious to see how this all works out. But at the retail/wholesale level it seems like cutting off one's nose to spite their face. The major hope of GW's future profitability I think is based largely on the continue switch over to plastic, and the cost savings from resin.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Cypher,
> 
> I think the question as to whether this change over will hurt their bottom line doesn't fall directly on the consumer who walks away. I believe it will change the buying habits of the consumers who currently shop with the soon-to-be-restricted resellers.
> 
> ...


You make a valid point here. Maybe what is goin on really is that GW has to make some sacrafices in the short run to pay for all the changes that feel need to be made to produce a better product. So they may have to take a heavy blow to get their stuff organized and once they have everything in place then they will prolly continue on expanding. 

I guess think of it like a RTS game, say DOW 1. Before you can stretch out and conquer the map you must first expand some gain resources and fortify your HQ base and then you can build a big enuff force and expand further to hopefully conquer the map.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

I did mention in the Australian Embargo thread that I thought GW were retrenching their global position but I got poo-pooed. I still think they have over-reached. It looks to me like they failed their morale check and are falling back...hoping they are not under half strength, no enemies nearby and are in coherency so they can regroup. :laugh:


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Cypher871 said:


> I did mention in the Australian Embargo thread that I thought GW were retrenching their global position but I got poo-pooed. I still think they have over-reached. It looks to me like they failed their morale check and are falling back...hoping they are not under half strength, no enemies nearby and are in coherency so they can regroup. :laugh:


Its so odd how we can relate everything to 40k


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, if any group of people were to be able to relate a wide array of topics to 40k this is where to find them!


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Its so odd how we can relate everything to 40k


Word. :so_happy:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Its so odd how we can relate everything to 40k


Odd is one word you can use ......Sad is another:biggrin:


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## TattooedGreenMan (Nov 4, 2008)

I was planning on doing ardboys this year but with the price hike I won't be able to. To damn expensive. I could barely afford what I was going to do before the hike now it is way out of my range. The ones I feel sorry for is the local game store owners. pretty soon they won't have people buying GW products and will be forced to stop carrying them. If GW keeps this up the only places you would be able to get GW products is at a GW battle bunker.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Corporation Broken! :grin:


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## Lucius_the_Eternal (May 20, 2011)

Take note Heretics 

I shall rally the Emperor's Children for we shall march upon GW HQ and will feast upon their souls and claim their stake and Slaanesh shall rule over this Corporation.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

... Too late, Lucius. Slaanesh is the lord of Excess, and I'm sure everyone agrees the price hike is Excessive, if nothing else. Slaanesh already rules over the corporation. Aren't you happy? 


In related news, Mantic opened their newsletter with this little tidbit:


Mantic said:
 

> Overstock Clearance!
> 
> Well it is real fun times here at Mantic Towers.
> 
> First, while some (ahem!) companies are raising their prices – we are selling a few overstock items cheap!


As predicted, Mantic is enjoying itself immensely...


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> As predicted, Mantic is enjoying itself immensely...


Muahahahahaaaaa.... Now THIS company, I can endorse. :laugh:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Muahahahahaaaaa.... Now THIS company, I can endorse. :laugh:


Wow, a company who are seeing a weakness with a rival to knock a few quid off some models to encourage people to cone and spend money with them that they otherwise wouldn't spend.

Jeeze, some people are so easily lead...


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Brilliant!!! Now if they only sold SM I could celebrate!


Doc


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## Lucius_the_Eternal (May 20, 2011)

Shandathe said:


> ... Too late, Lucius. Slaanesh is the lord of Excess, and I'm sure everyone agrees the price hike is Excessive, if nothing else. Slaanesh already rules over the corporation. Aren't you happy?
> 
> 
> In related news, Mantic opened their newsletter with this little tidbit:
> ...


Look that asshole Arhamin runs the place and Tzeench is the actual ruler of GW. Remember Slaanesh is behind the whole disney thing.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Lucius_the_Eternal said:


> Look that asshole Arhamin runs the place and Tzeench is the actual ruler of GW. Remember Slaanesh is behind the whole disney thing.


I don't recall disney making any porn movies, unless you are talking about School of Cock, but i don't think disney made that


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

So basically Mantic have not been able to shift its "cheap" stock and is having to sell it off even cheaper to clear the excess stock?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Not really I think, the 'few' thing is right. It's just a couple tools (clipper, glue, paintbrush) and a handful of Elves. I suspect it's more of a way to lure customers to their website in the hopes they'll pick up something else while they're there. Not a bad strategy overall...


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

TheReverend said:


> I designed that building, please don't!


Dirty Architect! 

frankly i had to say this, but GW is a business and business dont give a crap about you as long you buy the shit there throw at u

So either quit
try alternatives
Or just nerd rage the website/facebook etc etc until there close it down there reduce there marketing ability

Also for the love of God. STOP BUYING WHITE DWARF!

(ps Mantic comments about GW are ace)


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

But how will I know what to buy if I don't buy White Dwarf?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I hear there's this site called Heresy Online...


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

glad I posted the response in the OP in the middle of the price change spreadsheet thread a couple days ago where no one said anything about it....god damnit.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> So basically Mantic have not been able to shift its "cheap" stock and is having to sell it off even cheaper to clear the excess stock?


Why do you have to go there...can't you just be happy for mantic:yahoo:. They are taking advantage of all the anger to steal players.

@Llamafish- I like the pretty pictures in WD


Doc


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Why do you have to go there...can't you just be happy for mantic:yahoo:. They are taking advantage of all the anger to steal players.


He Sells GW.... of course his going to knock them :suicide:

The problem mantic may be suffering from is that GW gamers have image of what each race should look like, so when there do it slighty different everyone goes... "Mmmm not sure about that"


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I really like their undead and orcs...to a lesser degree their Dwarves...but you are right there is smothing about their elves...combination High elf and wood elves.


Doc


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Llamafish said:


> He Sells GW.... of course his going to knock them :suicide:
> 
> The problem mantic may be suffering from is that GW gamers have image of what each race should look like, so when there do it slighty different everyone goes... "Mmmm not sure about that"


Its not really anything to do with my selling antics, i simply dont like mantics stuff, which is more annoying because when they first appeared i had very high hopes for them, but they decided to go for cheap as chips quantity rather than quality, i wanted to see a genuine GW rival plastic producer but the mantic models (like many other small producers) lack optional parts and is in essence GW plastics from 10 plus years ago. 

Also i see bad mouthing your competitor as very unprofessional, particularity when your hanging on to your competitors coat tails for business.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

I think if GW went out of business most of the smaller companies would as well. They effectively steal GWs players when they get bored and look for an alternative. If GW went bust they would see an initial surge of interest that would slowly die away as the new recruits GW used to bring into the hobby slowly dried up.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> Its not really anything to do with my selling antics, i simply dont like mantics stuff, which is more annoying because when they first appeared i had very high hopes for them, but they decided to go for cheap as chips quantity rather than quality, i wanted to see a genuine GW rival plastic producer but the mantic models (like many other small producers) lack optional parts and is in essence GW plastics from 10 plus years ago.
> 
> Also i see bad mouthing your competitor as very unprofessional, particularity when your hanging on to your competitors coat tails for business.


Your argument is sound but I would have to add that they are much better sculpts than GW plastice from the 90's and infact are as good as some of the current range IMO. The problem with options will likely change over time and if they are successsful as it did with GW. Just give them some time and they might be a very good competitor especially if there rule set works well.

Doc


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## Masstadon (Jan 18, 2009)

i missed alot what are we furious about?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Masstadon said:


> i missed alot what are we furious about?


GW put their prices up starting 28th may.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Masstadon said:


> i missed alot what are we furious about?


Just read the thread. It's all there.


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## Topknot11 (Apr 11, 2011)

I called gamesworkshop today, and kavetched about the prices, we have alot of people walk up and watch us play at the store and then when they ask about the price, they freak out. So yeah they could come down a little, on the price especially since its all PLASTIC now. That being said Warhammer is still cheaper to play than MtG.(magic the gathering). Where you have to go and by whole new blocks of cards every 3 months to stay current, and people are paying up to 100 dollars for a single piece of friggin cardboard. I also suggested that in the future the should put a rule book and templates in the Army starter boxes and that way if people didnt want to play either of the armies in the Boxed set they could just buy and start playing with the army they wanted. 

I been in and out of WH40K since 2nd edition. Its always been "overpriced", but people have always played it. They have a modle and a formula that they have and will continue to follow so bitching and 7 bucks will get you a happy meal.


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## deathwatch27 (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm only glad that because i've been collecting for so long. Now that I can no longer justfy buying minis at those prices I can catch up on my painting.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

deathwatch27 said:


> I'm only glad that because i've been collecting for so long. Now that I can no longer justfy buying minis at those prices I can catch up on my painting.


So, living in the UK as your flag says you do, where the prices went up something like 10% (on average) you suddenly cant justify paying those prices?

Surely if you bought 10% less, or bought things 10% less of the time it would be no different?


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## Grevnash (May 26, 2011)

Just be happy you don't live in Australia. Have so seen how much they pay? poor bastards......


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Grevnash said:


> Just be happy you don't live in Australia. Have so seen how much they pay? poor bastards......


Usually 87.5% more.

But i was reading about the cost of running a retail business around the world and not surprisingly that the top 3 most expensive retail rents are.

1, New York City
2, Hong Kong
3, Sydney.

Even the outer suburbs of Sydney have the worlds most expensive retail rents.

Paramatta in Sydney's west has retail rents higher than London or Paris.

Not only that one factor is that Australians workers have the highest penalty rates in the world we have had the Queens Birthday long weekend and some folks i know were on double time and a half. Also one of the highest cost to any business is the cost of public liability insurance, which cost GW Australia several million dollars per year

Then we have the cost of internal transportation, this all adds up.

GW can not be expected to absorb all these costs and keep prices artificially low, GW consumers expect that GW have shop fronts to play, paint and use its staff, and have a safe enviroment to enjoy their hobby then they have to pay for that.

When factored the total operational costs of GW Australia then they at most they might make between 5% to 10% net profit.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Not only that one factor is that Australians workers have the highest penalty rates in the world we have had the Queens Birthday long weekend and some folks i know were on double time and a half. Also one of the highest cost to any business is the cost of public liability insurance, which cost GW Australia several million dollars per year.


all the GW store near me down here in Vic are closed on every public holiday expect for Anzac day for some reason.

as for the overall cost its after doing the maths a ton of times the l got the reason why from a video blog l watch. GW don't keep up dollar currency and just set the price to keep them safe which is something they can't keep doing. After all it was 47.75 US cents to a AUS dollar in April 2001, price change happen as normal so we pay the same as everyone eles but a dollar is now much higher which makes it seem like a rip off.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

In aus the problem is simple. The sales model doesn't work and the retards at gw have not figured it out yet. Australia is a huge place the size of europe with an average population density at least 10 times less than europe. Of course stores won't cut it. Mail order used to be the way to go and now it is the internet. I used to live in a small town and a friend of mine opened a games/ hobby shop and folded in under a year. There aren't enough people for that kind of thing. If gw sorted out their shit in aus and got their prices inline with the rest of the world the models would sell themselves. They need to get in with gaming clubs and groups because that is where the sales are in aus. Not in bricks and mortar stores, with the exception of places like toyworld and the like that carry some of their product.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

shaantitus said:


> In aus the problem is simple. The sales model doesn't work and the retards at gw have not figured it out yet. Australia is a huge place the size of europe with an average population density at least 10 times less than europe. Of course stores won't cut it. Mail order used to be the way to go and now it is the internet. I used to live in a small town and a friend of mine opened a games/ hobby shop and folded in under a year. There aren't enough people for that kind of thing. If gw sorted out their shit in aus and got their prices inline with the rest of the world the models would sell themselves. They need to get in with gaming clubs and groups because that is where the sales are in aus. Not in bricks and mortar stores, with the exception of places like toyworld and the like that carry some of their product.


I have to say some of what you have written is correct, we had 4 gaming leagues in my local area about 12 to 18 months ago, now we have 1, the problem was that veterans playing 40k, Fantady and Lord of the Rings left in big numbers, these numbers could not be replaced by kids, of course none of the leagues got any support from GW Australia, GW did not want to know.

One of my local GW suppliers looks like getting out of GW because it is not selling, he has decided not to buy any of the Finecast Range, and is now waiting for his contract with GW to run out so he dramatically cut prices and make an operational loss just to get out of GW, he will then expand his Radio Control Model lines, also he needs to replace a dud line with products that will sell. Case in point i went in he was in the process of selling 6 Radio Control models and has not sold one GW item in two weeks.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> In aus the problem is simple. The sales model doesn't work and the retards at gw have not figured it out yet. Australia is a huge place the size of europe with an average population density at least 10 times less than europe.


So? It doesnt matter how large the country is - but where the people are located:

20million or so in australia

4.5 in sydney
4 in melbourne
2 in brisbane
1.5 in perth
1 in adelaide

So - thats a grand total of 13 million living in 5 cities - a full 65% of the population could be reached from 5-10 GW stores.

That is NOT a bad way to go! Yes it sucks to be the other 35% of the population - but that is true of many things - there are benifits to being 'rural' and there are downsides too.

And there is absolutely nothing to stop that 35% from ordering from GW australia mail order - you just dont like paying the australian shop prices.

And as the good fellow pointed out above - the costs associated from opperating in australia are almost double those of the UK - hence the higher prices.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

coke123 said:


> So you have blueprints, eh? *walks of cackling maniacally, schemeing his nefarious schemes*


Actually you could probably just go down to the equivalent of the US City Halls and request the blueprints for the building. I think any building not under government contract(In the US) is allowed to have it's blueprints(Or a copy thereof) legally accessible. Still awesome that somebody here is in construction!


djinn24 said:


> You are all sounding like one huge group of Stellas. If you would actually LOOK at the price increases you would see that they are bringing the box sets that have not been increased up to where the rest of the box sets who have come out recently are at.
> 
> The only folks I really feel bad about it the Aussies and Kiwis
> 
> This is still a very cheap hobby. You should try playing CCGs or remote control cars, that can get really expensive.


Wow Stella became a bigger troll than me? I'm shocked! Shocked!
Good research on finding the price hikes just being catchup, not that it makes them any more valid or meaningful, but it shouldn't be ignored, we didn't get double-hiked in two months.
I don't believe people are so angry at the price hikes(It's one of many arguably valid reasons to be incensed), but moreso at the large spawn rate of problems, and the lackadaisical response by the company. It's asked a lot of the consumer base in a short amount of time, but lacked the tact or wisdom to reassure us that these changes are merely growing pains and not the kind of behavior we should consider "average" for them.
And to make a high tides deck(extremely competitive per price) deck in magic, all it requires is about $20 in commons and you're done.


TheSpore said:


> I guess think of it like a RTS game, say DOW 1. Before you can stretch out and conquer the map you must first expand some gain resources and fortify your HQ base and then you can build a big enuff force and expand further to hopefully conquer the map.


As a pro-DoW1 player you can stretch your conquering in T1 with generic cultists and crap like that and quicktech to three before even researching fortifications. Just keep the listening posts updated and pretend to have a larger force than you do.


bitsandkits said:


> Also i see bad mouthing your competitor as very unprofessional, particularity when your hanging on to your competitors coat tails for business.


In most business models this might be interpreted as disrespectful and not worthy of praise. But I consider it a bold move on their part. Our consumer-based world doesn't have many of these types of honest people able to have testicals made of plotanium armor. It's a refreshing change of pace from abject silence.


Maidel said:


> Jeeze, some people are so easily lead...


Not easily lead. It's hard to respect something that doesn't respect you, not make any discernible effort to compromise at all with it's consumer base. While knowing nothing of mantic games, I can say without any doubt that even a cursory price cut(even of excess stock) currently dominates any show of good will GW has made in the last few years. And certainly shows a willingness to draw in customers instead of folding it's arms with a troll face, spewing a line of "Deal with it".

In closing, we, as a community, have seen backlash before, but usually it's a few isolated events every month or so(space wolves so op, 3++ save omg hax, price hikes the world will end!, etc) when you compound several months worth of (justifiable or not) outrage, and then make no effort whatsoever to reassure the community, you invite disaster.
No, I don't think everyone will band together and stop buying or do anything useful, but I do believe that it is a good mark of the character of this business and how it treats it's customers. That being said, I'm still going to purchase things every now and again(to stay tournament legal in the barest sense of the term), but I certainly will not be starting new armies or feeding a machine all of my disposable income when it bites at my hand in greed.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> In most business models this might be interpreted as disrespectful and not worthy of praise. But I consider it a bold move on their part. Our consumer-based world doesn't have many of these types of honest people able to have testicals made of plotanium armor. It's a refreshing change of pace from abject silence.


This is what I say over and over again. What is it that GW has done that makes people feel they can say what they like about them. GW is not the devil - Mantic ARE being disrespectful when they bad mouth them - there isnt an exception to the rule simply because they are bad mouthing GW.



> Not easily lead. It's hard to respect something that doesn't respect you, not make any discernible effort to compromise at all with it's consumer base. While knowing nothing of mantic games, I can say without any doubt that even a cursory price cut(even of excess stock) currently dominates any show of good will GW has made in the last few years. And certainly shows a willingness to draw in customers instead of folding it's arms with a troll face, spewing a line of "Deal with it".


I dont mean to be funny - but NO company 'respects' its clients. They want to keep them happy enough to keep buying from them, they want to get as much money from them as possible. If you want 'disrespect' just look a banks, utility companies and estate agents - now THEY dont respect their customers!


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Maidel said:


> And as the good fellow pointed out above - the costs associated from opperating in australia are almost double those of the UK - hence the higher prices.


The biggest driver for high GW prices here are high _wholesale_ prices. GW charges Australian trade accounts as much as they charge the general public in the UK. That makes it fundamentally impossible for Australian retailers to compete, no matter what their operating costs.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

AlexHolker said:


> The biggest driver for high GW prices here are high _wholesale_ prices. GW charges Australian trade accounts as much as they charge the general public in the UK. That makes it fundamentally impossible for Australian retailers to compete, no matter what their operating costs.


Only if you allow other retailers to ship into the country. They have stopped that now, so competition is back to normal.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> So? It doesnt matter how large the country is - but where the people are located:
> 
> 20million or so in australia
> 
> ...


Yes thats great. Its that percentage of the population that you are prepared to stiff. Like the 35 % of the world that have to take the pineapple from gw's pricing structure. The thing is it is easy to give gw your support when you are not one of those getting reamed. 
And if the costs are higher avoid them. Go to the online model and give us a break. There is NO justification for almost double the price.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Yes thats great. Its that percentage of the population that you are prepared to stiff. Like the 35 % of the world that have to take the pineapple from gw's pricing structure. The thing is it is easy to give gw your support when you are not one of those getting reamed.
> And if the costs are higher avoid them. Go to the online model and give us a break. There is NO justification for almost double the price.


You earn on average twice as much as people in the uk. So selling to you a uk prices is like u's getting a 50% discount.

How is that not justification?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> You earn on average twice as much as people in the uk. So selling to you at uk prices is like you getting a 50% discount.
> 
> How is that not justification?


So:


Tony earns 20 feathers a year.

Ass-face earns 5 feathers a year.

Are you saying that Tony should have to pay 4x what Ass-face pays for things just because he earns more feathers? Seems a little coo-coo-crazy to me. 

The reason for the price difference just seems to be that GW is using 2000's exchange rate, when 1 Australian dollar was worth 1/100000 of a pound. 10 years ago I was paying roughly the same as people in the UK/US for my spess mahreens, now I'm paying almost double the cost, which is utterly, insanely, crazy.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Maidel said:


> You earn on average twice as much as people in the uk. So selling to you a uk prices is like u's getting a 50% discount.
> 
> How is that not justification?


No offence buuut... That is the most ridiculous reason I've heard so far, and if it was GWs actual reason, Australians would have even more of a reason to be pissed at them. Other companies are managing to sell merchandise at competitive prices with Online retailers (even with the extra overhead expenses here), so GW needs to suck it up a bit and start selling to local retailers (including thier own stores) at internationally competitive pricing, rather that jacking up the prices through the roof because "the Aussie economy is doing well, they can afford it!", and then flying off the rocker when people turn to online stores because of the massive price disparity. The arbitrary blocking of online international retailling was just a terrible kneejerk reaction to a problem that would have been better solved by reassesing the exchange rates.


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Maidel said:


> You earn on average twice as much as people in the uk. So selling to you a uk prices is like u's getting a 50% discount.
> 
> How is that not justification?


It's only a justification if you're a dirty stinking communist. :grin:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Dear sweet lord. You people utterly take the biscuit.

I've already said this three times or more in this thread alone, I'll spell it out again.


Models cost x to make
Models cost y to sell in the uk

Let's move this to australia

Models still cost x to make (still made in the uk)
Models cost z to ship to Australia
Models cost 2y to sell in Australia (wage of staff is double, wage of delivery drivers is double, utilities are double etc etc)

So the cost in the uk is x+y.

The cost in Australia is x+z+2y

This is not a difficult equation.

This is not me being 'a communist'.

That is just plain and simple fact. If you earn double (on average) what other countries do then EVERYTHING will cost double. 

If this doesn't make sense to you then re-read the thread, it's been explained better by me and others before.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> That is just plain and simple fact. If you earn double (on average) what other countries do then EVERYTHING will cost double


That comment right there makes me want to slap your shit something fierce. The 'average' wage of an honest-to-goodness worker in Australia is abysmal. But if you factor in the multi-million salaries company executives are on, suddenly by the magic of _averages_ I should be rich! There is an utterly immense divide between the rich and powerful, and everyone else in Australia.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Dear sweet lord. You people utterly take the biscuit.














Maidel said:


> I've already said this three times or more in this thread alone, I'll spell it out again.
> 
> 
> Models cost x to make
> ...


Ok, I'll address that, but let me start first with a question: Why do other companies products not double in price when coming to Australia? 

Because shipping and higher overheads do not double the cost of the product. Hell, it would be possible for a retailer here to buy from a discount retailer in the UK, have them ship the items across, mark them up from the retail price that they bought at 75% (which is a very decent markup) and STILL significantly undercut GWs prices here. That's being marked up by two retailers, and includes non-bulk shipping, and it's still cheaper than straight retail here. 

The cost of shipping isn't that high, especially in bulk, and mostly unaffected by an increase in the Aussie dollar, and the cost of overheads isn't double that of Europe (especially with higher tax rates there). No, the problem is that GW hasn't lowered it's Wholesale prices to Australian retailers to allow them to compete with overseas markets.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Yep, the equation fails to take into account the bulk element which drives down the costs.

Also, since the exchange rate is still in favour of the pound over the Auz dollar (£1 is worth about $1.50) a £40 product should be selling for about $60 dollars. I understand a landraider (about £40) costs off the shelf in Auz GW about $100 dollars!?!
Now, is GW really saying the extra costs to Auz are $40 dollars for a single landraider? So a crate of 100 landraiders shipped to auz and sold in stores incurs a cost of $4000?
If they are, they have a real problem with their infrastructure and need to restructure.

I am afraid the only real conclusion here is that GW are looking to corner a niche in their sales and bleed it for all its worth. GW think you are all chumps and will pay whatever they tell you to pay to get your hands on their product. 
However the cunning chaps at Wayland seem to have found a way around this...hurrah...so this argument is becoming more academic than reality. Anyway, nice try GW...but where there is a will there is a way(land!) - they should use that in their adverts!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> That comment right there makes me want to slap your shit something fierce. The 'average' wage of an honest-to-goodness worker in Australia is abysmal. But if you factor in the multi-million salaries company executives are on, suddenly by the magic of _averages_ I should be rich! There is an utterly immense divide between the rich and powerful, and everyone else in Australia.


Please do 'slap me in the face', but only if you climb out of your little box and expand your mind a little and realise THATS APPLICABLE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD AS WELL.

There is the same divide in the UK - whats why I used the same type of average for both countries - the MEAN average - afeter conversion its £42K in australia and £21K in the UK.

If you take out the 'mega rich' in both countries it would probably end up looking something like £36K and 18K respectively. It would STILL be double.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

maddermax said:


> Ok, I'll address that, but let me start first with a question: Why do other companies products not double in price when coming to Australia?


I dont live in Australia so I cant comment first hand.

But when I was having this conversation on these boards last week, everyone who was posting from australia admitted that all products over there are massively inflated compared to the price abroad.

So - you are one voice saying they arent - there were at least 4 people from auz in that thread who said they were.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel, I really do have to ask what you're trying to accomplish here.

You've been arguing with people on the boards here for what, a month or a bit less about GW's business practices?

Do you think you've convinced even one person to think differently?

Not attacking you, just putting the idea out there that trying to get people to not hate a company full of assholes may be a fruitless endeavor.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, yes actually.

I've had +rep from three posters who's note to me was 'good arguements, you've changed my mind' or words to that effect.

Not to mention the 20 other people who gave me +rep saying 'thanks for fighting the good fight, carry on' or words to that effect.

If someone doesn't say these things all that happens is that the negative posters get to have their say and mo one challenges them on it.

When people stop +repping me in that way, I might stop saying it.



Might.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Fair enough.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Having other idiots congratulate you doesn't make you any less of an idiot.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Hey, I think GW's wrong on this. Stronger local currencies should reflect into cheaper import goods. Even if a tiny bit of the cost (the...what... dozen GW employees in Oz?) is twice as much. Even if Oz salaries were 10 times the UK salaries, it shouldn't necessarily reflect on the prices. Anyhow, I don't want to jump into that debate again. I've made my point and anything else becomes a circular discussion.

All that rambling to say that I did +rep Maidel. Because even if I don't agree with him, he's made a good and polite case, which is worth +rep.

Phil


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Maidels constantly put forward well thought out arguments He,s been polite and not resorted to 
" you and anyone who agrees with you are idiots " type of replies that some think are worth posting. 
that deserves + rep as far as im concerned


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Deserves minus rep as far as im concerned. Crusading around the forum telling everyone their wrong is borderline troll.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Oh god, clearly I opened a can of worms.

Mods, my apologies. Wasn't thinking apparently.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

It's a fairly balanced community so there are bound to be differing opinions.

If some one wants to White Knight it on GWs behalf then fair play as long as they are within the rules of the forum.

This thread is not really the place to discuss the merits of deficits of any one member as that would be off topic.

GW have got a lot of things wrong recently mainly being the way they have gone about announcing and dealing with customers.

The only way to sort it is with wallet power, bitching and moaning is not going to make much difference to them. It never has before.


Whatever happens Heresy will try adapt to it's members needs, so if you do find your self out of love with GW and playing a new game system lets us know, post about what you are doing instead rather than just slagging off GW (Deserved or Not).

Slagging off GW happens a lot and in all honesty it becomes boring having to read the same stuff over and over. 
If you don't agree with either side of the argument you don't have to read it.

The Staff do,
so have some pity in you hearts and state your cases and avoid belabouring your point too much, Have your say and have done with it.

You know us we are the bad boy forum, GW have no love for us, we swear, we allow you freedom that is rarely seen on forums about our hobby, we have a site owner who is quite happy to call you a cunt if you are being one.

We will always be about the hobby, not the the companies that run it.

Oh and play nice.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

slaaneshy said:


> Yep, the equation fails to take into account the bulk element which drives down the costs.


His equation was designed to be at it's most basic so people could more easily understand it.



> Also, since the exchange rate is still in favour of the pound over the Auz dollar (£1 is worth about $1.50) a £40 product should be selling for about $60 dollars. I understand a landraider (about £40) costs off the shelf in Auz GW about $100 dollars!?!
> Now, is GW really saying the extra costs to Auz are $40 dollars for a single landraider? So a crate of 100 landraiders shipped to auz and sold in stores incurs a cost of $4000?
> If they are, they have a real problem with their infrastructure and need to restructure.


You bring up exchange rates but you seem to have a lack of understanding as to what it means for an international company. When GW went into the Auz market the $Auz was trading at a fraction of what it currently trades at. So when GW went into the market their prices, rent, and salaries paid to employees were based on that exchange rate. This is because GW must make a certain level of profit in their AUZ operations to make it worth while to invest.

Fast Forward several years later. The $Auz has increased (or maybe other currency just decreased. Moot point) which means more profit from sales of models in AUZ (after conversion), HOWEVER this also means that the costs of employing people and renting space in AUZ has increased as well. Now you can't just tell the landlords and employees that you will pay them less now that the $Auz is worth more, they won't accept that. For GW however it's a minor point, as they are maintaining the same level of profit as before. The problem comes from the fact that you can purchase things internationally and ship them to you.

The increase in the buying power of the $Auz means your now able to purchase the same good from outside the country for less. The players from $Auz see that they can purchase GW products from the US or England at a much lower rate (thanks to current conversion trends) and do so. The problem is doing that forces the UK and US markets to support the AUZ operations of GW. That means less profits for GW. GW must find a way to stabilize their profits and the most logical approach is to look at whats costing them the money, Auz customers buying from international 3rd party retailers to take advantage of favorable conversion rates. The best and quickest solution for GW? Stop 3rd party companies from shipping into the Auz market.

The real question is, will GW still be the devil if the $Auz tanked (or the $US and £UK go up) so conversion rates are no longer favorable to buying Internationally?

Lets see what comes of this opcorn:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

hungryugolino said:


> Having other idiots congratulate you doesn't make you any less of an idiot.


You can tell when you have won the arguement when the other side have nothing left but personal insults.

I would like to point out that I have NEVER used personal insults against other people. And that people like Katie clearly disagree with me, but they don't personally insult me either.

If you have a point to make, please make it. If not, please don't bring into question something that is definately incorrect.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

And I typed a such a nice long post.......


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

dont worry Vash, some of us actually read it


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> And I typed a such a nice long post.......


Sorry! I was responding to something on the previous page, I didnt read on further.

My bad.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Here is a fact, that you can buy Australian made goods on overseas online stores for over half of what you can buy on Australian Shelves, many have free delivery.

A pair of Australian made compression pants sells in Australia for about $150 the same compression pants sell on British Online sports stores for about $65 with free delivery. Total saving $85 if purchased via Britian.

Nearly all Australian manufactured goods are vastly cheaper when sold overseas than sold on Australian Shelves. A friend of mine several years ago imported Australian manufactured CD's, Video Tapes and DVD from New Zealand the cost savings on average was 40%, thats right it was 40% cheaper to re-import Aussie stuff from NZ.

Here is an example. I walk into Rebel Sports and buy a Manly Warringah Sea Eagles Jersey at $159.99Au, i know someone who works for that particular clothing brand ISC, who has told me it costs $10Au to make and distribute that Jersey, Telstra the major Sponsor of the National Rugby League takes an $80Au cut of the Jersey's retail price, The NRL takes $25 cut, the Club (Manly Warringah Sea Eagles) takes a $10 cut, Sponsors gets a $10 cut, Rebels gets the rest, of that $25 Is the wholesale price and that leaves a profit of $10 per Jesrsey


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> There is the same divide in the UK - whats why I used the same type of average for both countries - the MEAN average - afeter conversion its £42K in australia and £21K in the UK.
> 
> If you take out the 'mega rich' in both countries it would probably end up looking something like £36K and 18K respectively. It would STILL be double.


[citation needed]


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Maidel said:


> So? It doesnt matter how large the country is - but where the people are located:
> 
> 20million or so in australia
> 
> ...


This is a reasonable point. Something like 80% of Australians live within 50km of the coast, so really, when you look at that big country, You really should take a thin slice right around the border and chop out the vast, unpopulated middle. Brick and mortar still works.

The fact of the matter is that everything costs more around here. It's not GW being satan. Every retailer does it. Hell, my parents do it. You know how much my dad charges for a cake? It's daylight robbery! And you know what, if it's really hurting you, Wayland has even found a loophole to manipulate just for you, so you can keep going on enjoying low UK prices.



LordWaffles said:


> Actually you could probably just go down to the equivalent of the US City Halls and request the blueprints for the building. I think any building not under government contract(In the US) is allowed to have it's blueprints(Or a copy thereof) legally accessible. Still awesome that somebody here is in construction!


But that would leave a paper trail...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> [citation needed]


Check google or my posting history.

I pulled out all the links at least three times, and I'm not wasting 30minutes doing it again.

Sorry.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> This is what I say over and over again. What is it that GW has done that makes people feel they can say what they like about them. GW is not the devil - Mantic ARE being disrespectful when they bad mouth them - there isnt an exception to the rule simply because they are bad mouthing GW.


They produce a shitty game with unsound core rules and a business model teeming with poor decisions. When they provided the means for players to personalize the story and make it their own, it burrowed deeper in the 'sentimental' value range. While this might not be valid or reasonable on the part of the customer, it is what it is, and they make tons of money off the license, a license that has had so many community ideals and years of work gone into it. Without this license they'd make zero dollars, and I think at the end of the day that's what gets us pissed off.

We wouldn't pay any money for these products if they had nothing to do with the rich background of ideas of warhammer(40k or fantasy). The rules for the core gameplay are disfunctional, lopsided, vague, and more often than not, indecipherable.

To describe how a philosophical ideal of how one human should treat another would take pages and pages of hypothetical rationalization, I don't think I need to tell you that ignoring people is rude. As is being clumsy with an investments of others, or by violating the balance of gameplay in nothing more than a money-making scam. 


Maidel said:


> I dont mean to be funny - but NO company 'respects' its clients. They want to keep them happy enough to keep buying from them, they want to get as much money from them as possible. If you want 'disrespect' just look a banks, utility companies and estate agents - now THEY dont respect their customers!


I don't believe this is entirely true. A company is held together by things like respect and integrity, so long as it outwardly presents these two concepts, people will pay company A more money than company B. It's why so many companies from all walks of sales try to appeal to the american public with promises of "A company you can trust", or any number of other slogans to show they've been on good behavior. It's simply idiotic to sling poop all over yourself and then roll around on top of a car you want to sell, companies need to put up this front, or they'll take a hit in the amount of money they make with lost customers. Words cost exactly zero dollars, but how they are used is directly proportional to it's profits when it's not in an absolute monopoly.

Things like banks, utilities, and anything government run have the sweet sweet privilege of having one of two things. Either a contract for continued business(Be that of a loan, a yearly renewal, or mandated policy), or they're simply the only game in town(Anything government run). They can treat people like shit and not even bother putting up a front because you NEED them. You can't function at the height of life without them and since they know that, you're fucked. Regardless of how nasty they are in personality, cleanliness, basic human civility, or hygiene, you will keep coming back to these people.

GW is under that very same impression, but the fact of the matter is they are not one of these entities. I don't REQUIRE another unit of marines, I don't REQUIRE another fucking rhino that sells for the same integer in dollars as it costs to put on the table in points. I REQUIRE my license to be valid, I REQUIRE water and electricity to keep going to my house. And now with many differing games popping up it's simply a mathematical equation til the weight of disgust I feel for how the company(And license) is run, added to the coolness of other companies pitches, overrides the inherent awesome found in the license of warhammer.

To clarify; I'm not angry about the price raising, I'm angry about the game being a huge pile of horseshit, and about substandard products being released. This company only does two things to make money, they make models, and a game that you may play with the models. And it isn't doing either to the standards that I expect for the price. That is my gripe.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> They produce a shitty game with unsound core rules and a business model teeming with poor decisions.


Evidence please.



> When they provided the means for players to personalize the story and make it their own, it burrowed deeper in the 'sentimental' value range.


Im sorry - when did this stop?



> Without this license they'd make zero dollars, and I think at the end of the day that's what gets us pissed off.


Erm? You what? That 'licence' is their invention - they didnt 'buy it' they created it. Thats no different to saying without the 'licence' to create ferraris, ferrari would make no money. Thats utterly nonsensical.



> We wouldn't pay any money for these products if they had nothing to do with the rich background of ideas of warhammer(40k or fantasy).


Which is untrue because 1000s of people buy the models because they are simply without doubt the best made and highest detailed models generally available.



> To describe how a philosophical ideal of how one human should treat another would take pages and pages of hypothetical rationalization, I don't think I need to tell you that ignoring people is rude. As is being clumsy with an investments of others, or by violating the balance of gameplay in nothing more than a money-making scam.


Ignoring people is rude - expecting a multi national company with a turn over of over £100 million to 'personally' acknowledge you is, im afraid to say, mildly delusional.



> And now with many differing games popping up it's simply a mathematical equation til the weight of disgust I feel for how the company(And license) is run, added to the coolness of other companies pitches, overrides the inherent awesome found in the license of warhammer.


Thats nice. Enjoy those other games. I actually sincerly mean that. IF its not for you, then find a game that is. That, unfortunately, wont remotely affect the other 100,000+ customers that GW have, and will continue to have, because 99% of their customers dont even look at GW forums.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

We might all live near the coast but it is a fucking lot of coast. I really don't think that will wash. In the uk you can basically drive from one end of the country to the other in under a day. Its not really the same here. I might be convinced to do a day trip to london to get to a gw from anywhere within 300kms. 300 kms makes fuckall difference here. I can just get to the next major city(not a capital, pop less than 300000) and there is still no shop. I would also like to point out that the ' we get paid more so things should cost more' bit is bullshit. Why would anyone who has worked their way up the pay scale have to pay more for everything. On the other hand that would mean thet ferarri should scale their prices so thet they are affordable for people on welfare.
I would also point out that the cost of living in aus plays a significant part in eating into those 'amazing wages' we get.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Evidence please.


Go to the tactics forum. We can provide you with individualized point costs and every proven complaint regarding the games structure of rules, how we lawyer them, the power struggle between differing armies, the fact that mathematically some forces are SIGNIFICANTLY and UNREASONABLY stronger.
Really if you have ever gone to a tournament I wouldn't have to substantiate this with anything besides common sense, and a substantial lol.

Or rather if you could point out where this game is superior without using any words revolving around fluff. That'd be great.


Maidel said:


> Im sorry - when did this stop?


Usually it slows exponentially when the codex invalidates the way one can make, write, or produce a list. The invalidation of units, wargear options, army backgrounds(legions, chapter tactics) or any number of physical methods could lessen the degree to which you may customize and add your own story to the game.
More directly, GW had stopped all player input about the game right after the whole eye of terror campaign. Without anyway to move the plot along, it sincerely drew a line between player's involvement and the storyline.


Maidel said:


> Erm? You what? That 'licence' is their invention - they didnt 'buy it' they created it. Thats no different to saying without the 'licence' to create ferraris, ferrari would make no money. Thats utterly nonsensical.


Sorry, I've studied more into how people function than the grammatical way to use license.
Perhaps try rereading it with whatever the cockhell word is that defines every single facet of an imaginary creation. Copyright? Is that the word you want? I don't want to be nonsensical when you can't be assed to meet me halfway on wordplay.


Maidel said:


> Which is untrue because 1000s of people buy the models because they are simply without doubt the best made and highest detailed models generally available.


In this statement we have a fact, 1000s of people buy the models. Than opinion, opinion, opinion. To state reasoning behind anyone's purchases than your own is folly.


Maidel said:


> Ignoring people is rude - expecting a multi national company with a turn over of over £100 million to 'personally' acknowledge you is, im afraid to say, mildly delusional.


Some people are born better than others, I was and then I became better than you lot by hard work and tenacity :grin:
But in all seriousness you are correct. Except that a multi-national company generally should take notice if over half it's market dislikes it and speaks ill of it. Just taking a general poll from this unbiased thread should put the percentage at 60 against and 40 for this product being all it could be. But hey little people never add up do they, it's totally like revolutions and voting, and those silly things don't exist. 


Maidel said:


> Thats nice. Enjoy those other games. I actually sincerly mean that. IF its not for you, then find a game that is. That, unfortunately, wont remotely affect the other 100,000+ customers that GW have, and will continue to have, because 99% of their customers dont even look at GW forums.


Evidence please.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> > We might all live near the coast but it is a fucking lot of coast. I really don't think that will wash.
> 
> 
> I didnt say that, someone else did. What I said was that 65% of the population live in 5 cities. Yes it sucks for the other 35%, but running a business is all about catering to the most people for he least amount of money.
> ...


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

LordWaffles said:


> They produce a shitty game with unsound core rules and a business model teeming with poor decisions. When they provided the means for players to personalize the story and make it their own, it burrowed deeper in the 'sentimental' value range. While this might not be valid or reasonable on the part of the customer, it is what it is, and they make tons of money off the license, a license that has had so many community ideals and years of work gone into it. Without this license they'd make zero dollars, and I think at the end of the day that's what gets us pissed off.
> 
> We wouldn't pay any money for these products if they had nothing to do with the rich background of ideas of warhammer(40k or fantasy). The rules for the core gameplay are disfunctional, lopsided, vague, and more often than not, indecipherable.
> 
> ...


I'll be brief, if you hate GW that much, then piss off and take up knitting.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> Evidence please.


There are no GW forums


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Go to the tactics forum. We can provide you with individualized point costs and every proven complaint regarding the games structure of rules, how we lawyer them, the power struggle between differing armies, the fact that mathematically some forces are SIGNIFICANTLY and UNREASONABLY stronger.
> Really if you have ever gone to a tournament I wouldn't have to substantiate this with anything besides common sense, and a substantial lol.
> 
> Or rather if you could point out where this game is superior without using any words revolving around fluff. That'd be great.
> ...


Do I have to point out to you how you contradicted yourself with those two statements?

On the one hand you complain that the game is unbalanced and certain things are better than others, then you complain that they are taking things away from you and streamlining the game...

Go back to first edition where everything was utterly interchangable and you will see THE single most 'broken' game ever made. The game is HUGE, it is impossible to balance the game like it is a chess board because the more you add, the more rules and more conflicts that will exist. No other company makes a game of the scale of 40K.



> Sorry, I've studied more into how people function than the grammatical way to use license.
> Perhaps try rereading it with whatever the cockhell word is that defines every single facet of an imaginary creation. Copyright? Is that the word you want? I don't want to be nonsensical when you can't be assed to meet me halfway on wordplay.


It has utterly nothing to do with 'word play' you said that no one would buy anything from GW if they werent selling things to do with their 'licences' - which are their games. So if they werent selling those games - what the hell would people have to buy from them? Thats whats nonsensical, nothing to do with wordplay or any other nonsence.



> In this statement we have a fact, 1000s of people buy the models. Than opinion, opinion, opinion. To state reasoning behind anyone's purchases than your own is folly.


Erm? Really? Do you ever read peoples blogs, or read entries on Cmon? Or speak to people? I worked in GW (for my sins) for 3 years when I was at Uni - I spoke to peope all the time about their projects, what they were buying and why - and lots of people never once played the game, they bought models because they were really good and they wanted to paint them. Other people bought them for D&D because they were much better models that WotC sold. 



> Evidence please.


Erm - do I really have to explain the demographic of GWs purchasers? When I worked in GW we did all the tallies of who was buying stuff. From memory, about 50% of stuff was bought by kids parents - people who dont give a **** about internet forums, they were just buying silly bits of expensive plastic to keep little johnny with ADHD quiet.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> There are no GW forums


Surely no forum on the internet discusses gw-related topics! That'd be impossible ;D


Maidel said:


> Do I have to point out to you how you contradicted yourself with those two statements?
> 
> On the one hand you complain that the game is unbalanced and certain things are better than others, then you complain that they are taking things away from you and streamlining the game...
> 
> Go back to first edition where everything was utterly interchangable and you will see THE single most 'broken' game ever made. The game is HUGE, it is impossible to balance the game like it is a chess board because the more you add, the more rules and more conflicts that will exist. No other company makes a game of the scale of 40K.


You would have to, as they aren't contradicting each other, what's the term? Mutually exclusive? You can have options without making them blindingly overpowered.
The game is unbalanced. Period. But the way you phrase it, you mean to say it was never balanced and is just awful and nobody should play it? Why would I play the game if it's still the same shit with less options? Silly goose, that's not reasonable.
You mention the scale of the wargame having innate problems with more balance? Now that's an interesting topic, but now one to discuss in here. Mageknight could have unlimited points totals, and bring the same scale of a game along with it.(To name one, but this is off topic)


Maidel said:


> It has utterly nothing to do with 'word play' you said that no one would buy anything from GW if they werent selling things to do with their 'licences' - which are their games. So if they werent selling those games - what the hell would people have to buy from them? Thats whats nonsensical, nothing to do with wordplay or any other nonsence.


Then I explained what I meant when I said 'license'...and then you ignored it. Well done! I can see you're willing to discuss instead of be finicky with words, really shows some grade A caliber arguing skills right there. Totally legit.


Maidel said:


> Erm? Really? Do you ever read peoples blogs, or read entries on Cmon? Or speak to people? I worked in GW (for my sins) for 3 years when I was at Uni - I spoke to peope all the time about their projects, what they were buying and why - and lots of people never once played the game, they bought models because they were really good and they wanted to paint them. Other people bought them for D&D because they were much better models that WotC sold.


While true that GW produces finer models than D&D, that wasn't a very difficult feat to replicate. Reaper hinges it's franchise on selling one-off models for other games and DnD(Until that horrid army thing they made).
Getting back to the point, I was invalidating your fanfictioning of GW producing the highest tier of models ever created by anyone ever and that's the reason 1000s of people buy them. Beside the fact that it's a stretch into the unreal to assume that, it's also unprovable.


Maidel said:


> Erm - do I really have to explain the demographic of GWs purchasers? When I worked in GW we did all the tallies of who was buying stuff. From memory, about 50% of stuff was bought by kids parents - people who dont give a **** about internet forums, they were just buying silly bits of expensive plastic to keep little johnny with ADHD quiet.


So we've gone from 99% to 50%. If I keep you talking that'll drop some more most likely. Let's say about 50% of all recent purchases were in the strata you described, that of just throwaway toys. Not all of those kids grow away from the game and many stay in, it's how many people start, especially if they like the aesthetic. What percentage of return buyers would you say those kids are? Roughly 75%, 50%, 25%? How many of them come back?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

@Lordwaffles

Take up knitting, it will save you a lot of pent up anger.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Sigh

Scale of game in terms of points is meaningless. You could play chess with 5 chess sets, the core game is still the same basic 6 pieces. What I meant by 'scale' was the number of individual model choices between all the armies. It must approach 2000, maybe more, maybe a bit less. There is no way that will ever be balanced.

You may think you have explained what you meant by 'licences' but I'm utterly none the wiser.

My 99% comment was not meant to he taken literally, please mentally replace 99% with 'a large proportion'.

And can you try and cut down on the personal belittling comments, it's really difficult to remain polite and pleasant if the other person is constantly accusing you of 'fanficting' or making sarci comments.

Thank you.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> @Lordwaffles
> 
> Take up knitting, it will save you a lot of pent up anger.


If I did I'd probably go berserk within an hour or two and go on a knitting-needle rampage.

Plus that shit is gay, dude. You're more than welcome to bang all them old ladies and gay guys, but I'm neither of them, so please stop hitting on me, it really is rather inappropriate on this forum.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Scale of game in terms of points is meaningless. You could play chess with 5 chess sets, the core game is still the same basic 6 pieces. What I meant by 'scale' was the number of individual model choices between all the armies. It must approach 2000, maybe more, maybe a bit less. There is no way that will ever be balanced.


Okay now this is much more informative.
So what you're saying is that no game imaginable played on the tabletop could possibly be more complex than a 4's across the board aspiring champion with melta bombs, an icon, a powerfist, and a plasma gun, all with differing statistics, points costs, and rules?
Have you ever, by chance, played any role playing game that involves having stats? Alright failing that comparison, how about mage knight where every single model had varying stats...based on how WOUNDED it was? Ah, didn't see that one coming? To an ex-player of than, having your dudes die in a single hit with all the same statline is a blessing.


Maidel said:


> You may think you have explained what you meant by 'licences' but I'm utterly none the wiser.


Copyright. Try that word. The thing what does make 40k. 
"Warhammer, the Warhammer 40,000 device, the Double Headed/Imperial Eagle device and all associated products, marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, factions, vehicles, locations, weapons, units, characters, illustrations and images from the Warhammer World and Warhammer 40,000 Universe, All Rights Reserved."



Maidel said:


> My 99% comment was not meant to he taken literally, please mentally replace 99% with 'a large proportion'.
> 
> And can you try and cut down on the personal belittling comments, it's really difficult to remain polite and pleasant if the other person is constantly accusing you of 'fanficting' or making sarci comments.


You were fanficting. Don't do it if you don't want me to say you're doing it.
I hardly believe my comments were belittling, especially with the amount of tact you've shown in previous posts to people in this very same topic. I figured if you wanted to present an argument and defend it you would do that. Not try to insult me by saying that because I disagree with you I'm somehow offending you on a personal level.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Ok. I've played roleplaying games for years, I don't understand how you can compare them, and they are not 'balanced' either. Please explain, that makes no sense.

I've no idea what you are talking about in terms of GWS copyrights. Without those they have nothing to sell either.

I'm terribly lost, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Ok. I've played roleplaying games for years, I don't understand how you can compare them, and they are not 'balanced' either. Please explain, that makes no sense.


Perchance we forget about the rpg element since it is not truly a tabletop game and(At least in dnd 3.5) is unbalanced(4.0 is pretty solid). But to close on an irrelevant point, the companies that produce these rpgs do try to make them balanced(Outside of dnd3.5)
Bringing the point back, in mage knight(Heroclix I think has the same level of intricity and is still played.) you could have the scale of infinite models on the board with varying points costs, each one had differing abilities depending on what treasure box they held(Statistical improvements) or if they found an artifact(special rules), and the base dial for everyone was different(USR's for each statistic varied). It had all the complexity and scale of warhammer, and the fairness was generally balanced. It can be done.
The company did stupid things with it's product and crashed though, unrelated to content.



Maidel said:


> I've no idea what you are talking about in terms of GWS copyrights. Without those they have nothing to sell either.
> 
> I'm terribly lost, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.


I'm saying if GW did not have that copyright, nobody would buy the models, or at least certainly not in excess that we do now.

Take for example warmachine/hordes. The fluff sucks dongs. It hasn't had years of writer artisians to perfect it's story, nor has it had enough background to be compelling.
It's entire structure is sold off two things, gameplay(Which is painstakingly managed), and steampunk stuff.

Point to it all, we play the game because we enjoy the copyright, not how the game functions in it's current state or because we enjoy the piss-awful balance attributed to the codexes, or the loopy pants-on-head retarded rules governing all this.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> shaantitus said:
> 
> 
> > Thus, GWs prices also scale because they have to pay their staff more in Australia and the electicity company more and the truckers more and 100 other things that they have to pay more because earnings are much more in Australia.
> ...


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> The problem is not 'you are all rich' because thats patently stupid - you arent all rich, your exchange rate is just so far out with the UK that what you get paid 'LOOKS' more that we get paid - but as you said, its not all money that you can blow because your cost of living scales with the increase in earnings.
> 
> Thus, GWs prices also scale because they have to pay their staff more in Australia and the electicity company more and the truckers more and 100 other things that they have to pay more because earnings are much more in Australia.
> 
> Please tell me that all makes sense.


It does, however our cost of living doesn't neatly scale with pay. We have been steadily and increasingly bent over a log for the last ten years, in large part thanks to the banks and fuel companies. Now before anyone decides to start a longwinded debate "Everyone's suffering because of fuel prices doofus", it doesn't quite work that way, and fuel companies can gouge individual _cities_ as they see fit. Please don't bring it up any further.

So (and this is an example with no solid numbers), a UK worker and an Australian worker have the same job. The aussie gets the equivalent of £200 in his paypacket, whilst the pom gets ripped off and recieves £100. The pom pays his bills and does his grocery shopping, and is left with £50 in his pocket. The Aussie does the same thing and pays more in the range of £150 to keep himself fed and housed.

So what I'm getting at is that while our equivalent average wage might be double that of the UK, the cost of living is more like _triple_. So we're paid 'more money', but poorer for it.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

This thread is unintentionally hilarious, especially the jokers defending GW.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

hungryugolino said:


> This thread is unintentionally hilarious, especially the jokers defending GW.


Really? I find it hilarious because many people lack an understanding of economics. Many people in this thread talk about conversion rates for currency yet seem to lack a basic understanding of how they effect an international business.

Then again this wasn't something that I didn't see coming. Plenty of people only tend to look at a situation based on how it affects them, rather then looking at the whole thing.

Plus no has answered the question I put forth earlier in the thread:



Wusword77 said:


> The real question is, will GW still be the devil if the $ Auz tanked (or the $ US and £UK go up) so conversion rates are no longer favorable to buying Internationally?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> This last bit is the one that shits me. The prices may indeed scale due to overheads. But they don't scale when the exchange rates reduce the base cost of the goods. In aus many things are more expensive than overseas, but not to the same degree as gw's products. Normally the premium is like 25% more. Not double.


Oh yeah, the markup is way too much. But you can't reasonably expect a direct conversion factor from the UK (which many are angry about losing).


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Khargoth said:


> It does, however our cost of living doesn't neatly scale with pay. We have been steadily and increasingly bent over a log for the last ten years, in large part thanks to the banks and fuel companies. Now before anyone decides to start a longwinded debate "Everyone's suffering because of fuel prices doofus", it doesn't quite work that way, and fuel companies can gouge individual _cities_ as they see fit. Please don't bring it up any further.
> 
> So (and this is an example with no solid numbers), a UK worker and an Australian worker have the same job. The aussie gets the equivalent of £200 in his paypacket, whilst the pom gets ripped off and recieves £100. The pom pays his bills and does his grocery shopping, and is left with £50 in his pocket. The Aussie does the same thing and pays more in the range of £150 to keep himself fed and housed.
> 
> So what I'm getting at is that while our equivalent average wage might be double that of the UK, the cost of living is more like _triple_. So we're paid 'more money', but poorer for it.


This argument is lose/lose for an Australian trying to make his point.

Either the AU worker has about double the leisure money of someone in the UK and that is a justification for GW trying to squeeze more out of the buyer.

or

The costs of living in Au is so high that GW have to pay more rent, their staff have to be paid more, it costs more fuel to get stock from A-B (geography not prices), etc and that is why prices are higher. 

Also, you don't want to get into the fuel thing, but we pay a crazy amount more for fuel in the UK than Australia (I admit it's mostly tax and our prices don't fluctuate as much by region, but we pay way more).

Locally I pay about £1.34 per litre for petrol. According to http://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/fuelwatch/pages/home.jspx (motormouth has similar figures) you pay AU $1.27 to 1.57. After exchange I pay 30%+ more than the highest costing pump in Australia.

Obviously no one is saying bend over and take it.

You can bitch to GW direct all you like, but they will not change their business model. Their business model is set to support the 'bricks and mortar' gaming stores in Australia. 

If their stores became unprofitable they would close them, Australia would be deemed a poor venue for direct sales and the embargo would hopefully be lifted. So simply don't buy from them.

Now that being said, GW's report shows that 8% of profit in the last 6 month report period was from sales in Australia. It is extremely likely that these figures are based on internal sales (otherwise, where would they get these stats?). So some people have been happy to pay Australian prices for a while. Ironically, if those that are 'bitching' stopped buying what would go down is EU profits, since I can assume that most ROW buyers were getting them from Wayland and the like.


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

increaso said:


> Now that being said, GW's report shows that 8% of profit in the last 6 month report period was from sales in Australia. It is extremely likely that these figures are based on internal sales (otherwise, where would they get these stats?). So some people have been happy to pay Australian prices for a while. Ironically, if those that are 'bitching' stopped buying what would go down is EU profits, since I can assume that most ROW buyers were getting them from Wayland and the like.


Well the last 6-monthly figures they released actually show a £159k loss in Australia, and £251k loss in Japan/Emerging Markets (their words), so you can probably assume the latest moves are pretty much as a direct result of that - from pg 10 of Half Yearly figures to Nov 2010. 

Completely agree with the general idea of the post though - just because the average wage in Australia is double the UK average, doesn't mean that the amount of disposable income is also double. But without knowing the ins and outs of what GW are paying for what parts of their costs in Australia et al, it's impossible for us to say how much they're benefiting/losing out of the exchange rate changes.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I'm inclined to say that with the way GW is currently handling Australia, everyone's losing.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

EmbraCraig said:


> Well the last 6-monthly figures they released actually show a £159k loss in Australia, and £251k loss in Japan/Emerging Markets (their words), so you can probably assume the latest moves are pretty much as a direct result of that - from pg 10 of Half Yearly figures to Nov 2010.


Good catch.

I just saw the revenue figures on page 2 and used that to make my point.

I suspect the loss is actually due to investment in stores rather than loss of anticipated sales. That being said, my conclusions are the same as yours. If you want to protect your investment you have to do what they did.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

EmbraCraig said:


> Completely agree with the general idea of the post though - just because the average wage in Australia is double the UK average, doesn't mean that the amount of disposable income is also double. .


Absolutely correct - that is often the case. However even when its not, it doesnt prevent the cost due to high wages from being double.

However, in another thread an aussie looked it up and on average (sorry) people in australia have 1 or 2% more of their income spent on 'leisure' activities than in the UK. Which implies that they either prioritise their money towards leisure activities (Rather than drinking or other disposable income expenses) or they have fractionally more disposable income.

If memory serves it was something like 8% in the UK and 10% in australia.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> Plus no has answered the question I put forth earlier in the thread:


Yes. They would. Read other posts please.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

increaso said:


> Either the AU worker has about double the leisure money of someone in the UK and that is a justification for GW trying to squeeze more out of the buyer.


Nope, I meant an Australian has about the same amount of leisure money, but it doesn't go as far thanks to everything either being inflated by the government or overseas interests.



increaso said:


> Or The costs of living in Au is so high that GW have to pay more rent, their staff have to be paid more, it costs more fuel to get stock from A-B (geography not prices), etc and that is why prices are higher.


If their staff are being paid more, it sure isn't the FLGS staff. But then wouldn't surprise me to learn there's numerous over-paid executives working at the Australian head office.



increaso said:


> Also, you don't want to get into the fuel thing, but we pay a crazy amount more for fuel in the UK than Australia (I admit it's mostly tax and our prices don't fluctuate as much by region, but we pay way more).
> 
> Locally I pay about £1.34 per litre for petrol. According to http://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/fuelwatch/pages/home.jspx (motormouth has similar figures) you pay AU $1.27 to 1.57. After exchange I pay 30%+ more than the highest costing pump in Australia.


Ok, I'm going to be brief then not speak of the matter anymore, but the last time fuel was $1.27 in my town the station got _swarmed_, and the prices are only just coming down from an upward trend of nudging nearly $2 a litre. But with the way every other imported product is artificially inflated, high fuel prices don't make life easier.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Yes. They would. Read other posts please.


Well, peoples main argument about prices in Aus is that they can buy goods cheaper overseas due to favorable conversion rates. So if the $Auz dropped (or the $US or GBP went up) to the point where the conversion rate caused prices to level out I'm not seeing the benefit of buying GW products from over seas.



Khargoth said:


> If their staff are being paid more, it sure isn't the FLGS staff. But then wouldn't surprise me to learn there's numerous over-paid executives working at the Australian head office.


When GW went into Auz the exchange rate was very favorable to them. Now that the exchange rate is not longer as favorable they can't cut the amount of money they are paying for rent nor can they cut the salaries of their employees in the area.

Or do people really expect a company to eat an increase of $0.50(US) on every dollar to their cost structure in a market? For those that can't do that math, it means a 50% increase just due to conversion rates, nothing to do with anything else beyond them.

I got my prices based on GW entering the Aus market during the early 1990's (1993-1994) when the AUD was trading at around 1.40 (Average) to the USD. The AUD was trading at 2.20 (Average) to the GBP at the same time. Currently the AUD trades at 1.514 to the GBP (that's a loss of 0.686 GBP) and 0.9125 to the USD (loss of 0.4875 USD).

If someone has a more specific date I'll happily get the conversion data from that date.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

You realize that you're using the wrong currency right? GW's not based in America, and it's books are presumably in GBP.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> You realize that you're using the wrong currency right? GW's not based in America, and it's books are presumably in GBP.


I'm aware of that. I used both currencies in my post (see below or above).



Wusword77 said:


> I got my prices based on GW entering the Aus market during the early 1990's (1993-1994) when the AUD was trading at around 1.40 (Average) to the USD. The AUD was trading at 2.20 (Average) to the GBP at the same time. Currently the AUD trades at 1.514 to the GBP (that's a loss of 0.686 GBP) and 0.9125 to the USD (loss of 0.4875 USD).


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Wusword77 said:


> I'm aware of that. I used both currencies in my post (see below or above).


I was in Britain in 1990 and the Australian Dollar was 32p, thats right we were getting $3.06Au to the GBP. At the same time the Australian Dollar was 48c American or about $2.08Au to the USD.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> Nope, I meant an Australian has about the same amount of leisure money, but it doesn't go as far thanks to everything either being inflated by the government or overseas interests.
> .


No - they have the same PROPORTION of income - somewhere in the 8-10% region.

And thus, as their income is (on average) double that of the UK they effectively have twice as much to spend.

This does not mean they get twice as much, because everything is about twice as expensive - but you will get a better deal on some items and a worse deal on others.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> This does not mean they get twice as much, because everything is about twice as expensive - but you will get a better deal on some items and a worse deal on others.


I have to jump in here (despite saying I wouldn't!). Technically, only AU good would be in proportion and thus twice as much. A GW Battalion box in locally sold by AU salespersons that are paid in accordance with AU prices. But it's made by (proportionnaly) cheaper wage UK workers in a cheaper UK environment with plastic that has been bought with Pounds. So, really, the only two thing here that should excuse higher AU prices are: shipping and AU employee salaries. Shipping is dirt cheap, especially in bulk. Now, how much, in %, does local salespersons salaries account for in the AU price? Probably not much.

Just because Australian pay more, proportionnaly, for local stuff, in local money, to local people doesn't mean that this ratio should be imposed to them across the globe. If that same principle applied, everything you've ever bought with "made in China" stamped on it would be outrageoulsy more expensive. From what I can calculate, AU worker average wage is 24 AU$ whereas UK worker average wage is 18 AU$ (with conversion) so everything should be 33% more expensive in AU? In that scenario, chinese goods sold in Canada would be 55 times more expensive here in Canada. A simple Big Mac meal (2.60$CDN or 18 yuan in China) should be 143$ here?

No really, this is a case of a Company's accountants deciding that "buyers" in country "X" have a currency advantage in buying imported goods. And said accountants decided that the Company should pocket this currency advantage. Most companies do it. The more monopolistic they are, the more they do (your own iTune store example is a good one, Maidel). That should be opposed by consumers everywhere and with all types of good or services. A strong currency is NOT a good thing and has lots of disadvantages for local economies (mainly trying to keep local business alive as they have problem exporting goods and services that become more expensive abroad). They ONLY advantage the average persons gets from a strong currency is better buying power for imported goods.

Now, GW can try to masquarade itself as a "local" good in AU (or Canada) all it wants by giving us this brick and mortar charade. But the truth is: GW products are imported goods. And just like goods from third world countries, we should benefit from a strong local currency, no matetr what our local spendings are like.

In fact, to take your reasonning a bit further: GW goods should be more expensive in New York than in New Jersey. Or it should be more expensive in Downtown London, because the cost of living/average income is higher than in rural UK  

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Phil/boreas - I actually agree with you that part of this is GW wanting to take advantage of the currency conversion, I hope I have never given the impression that this isn't part of the equation.

However you started to make my point for me, but then stopped half way. You showed that on minimum wage after conversion Australians will get 33% more. This will more than likely directly add 30% to the cost of the models. However you need to continue that line of thought. What about shop rents? Electricity? Local delivery charges? Local council tax (if applicable). All of these things are going to cost proportionately more than in the uk, so by the time it's all totalled up it probably comes to something like 75% more than the uk, with the final 25% increase taken upby shipping costs, currency conversion and profit.


And the analogy about things costing more in rich areas, well they do. If it's an expensive area that is where boutique clothes shops and fine dining restaurants will gather. Hell the pubs in London charge 2-3x more than the ones up north!


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> And the analogy about things costing more in rich areas, well they do. If it's an expensive area that is where boutique clothes shops and fine dining restaurants will gather. Hell the pubs in London charge 2-3x more than the ones up north!


They do charge more, because the rent is a huge part of the cost. But GW cannot think like that. When a product is sold nationwide, worldwide and on the internet, you cannot charge more in "richer" areas of a country. A pub downtown London has 3 to 10 times the rent of a pub in a rural area (if ratios are the same as here. I used to own a drugstore downtown and now own one in a rural area). That's the main cost, more than employees, food or alcohol. Hence the higher prices. 

I'm nowhere sure about the next part, but I'll go on a limb. According to GW's 2009-2010 Financial statement, p. 39, the staff and operating lease are roughly 47.5 and 10,3 million pounds. That's a total 57.5 million pounds for a total 113.5 million pounds of costs (cost of sales+operating expenses). So, even if that "cost of life" was higher for GW stores in AU, they still account for only 50% of what you buy. 

So, let's say the "cost of life" is 33% higher in AU for GW stores (rent+staff wages), since they account for 50% of the product's cost, AU customers should par 16.5% more. Let's add a 5% for shipping (which is hugely overestimating it), and you're a 21.5% more. That's a far cry from the 124% upcharge (putting the AoBR at 61.5 pounds ->49.2 pounds before VAT-> 73.8$AU, compared to 165$AU in AU).


Now, the one thing that's very interesting is that the only place in the world where operating expenses have augmented from 2009 to 2010 is Australia (GW's 2009-2010 Financial statement, p. 3&). You'll also find (p. 5) that AU has the lowest proportion of one-man stores and that oustide of UK, it has the most stores per capita. What I think is that GW has overextended itself in AU and is trying to cram that mistake in the customers' throat by forcing them into those store...

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

> They do charge more, because the rent is a huge part of the cost. But GW cannot think like that. When a product is sold nationwide, worldwide and on the internet, you cannot charge more in "richer" areas of a country. A pub downtown London has 3 to 10 times the rent of a pub in a rural area (if ratios are the same as here. I used to own a drugstore downtown and now own one in a rural area). That's the main cost, more than employees, food or alcohol. Hence the higher prices.


EXACTLY! and with the cost in australia being much higher than in the UK they have to charge proportionately more. Its not a different area of a country - its an entirely separate country - therefore the costs are set at a completely separate level to the UK. This is not a 'you earn more therefore you SHOULD pay more', what it actually is is a 'It costs **** lot more to run stores in your country and thus you have to pay more'



boreas said:


> I'm nowhere sure about the next part, but I'll go on a limb. According to GW's 2009-2010 Financial statement, p. 39, the staff and operating lease are roughly 47.5 and 10,3 million pounds. That's a total 57.5 million pounds for a total 113.5 million pounds of costs (cost of sales+operating expenses). So, even if that "cost of life" was higher for GW stores in AU, they still account for only 50% of what you buy.


Thats all great information - but what it doesnt do is break down the costs per area. If the total costs are 50% of turn over on shop costs thats great as a company average - however what we dont know (And I expect) is that the portion of cost for GW australia stores is proportionaly higher than for other countries stores and thus, if all the stores were australian it is possible tha the cost would be more like 75% of turn over. However we just dont know that.




> Now, the one thing that's very interesting is that the only place in the world where operating expenses have augmented from 2009 to 2010 is Australia (GW's 2009-2010 Financial statement, p. 3&). You'll also find (p. 5) that AU has the lowest proportion of one-man stores and that oustide of UK, it has the most stores per capita. What I think is that GW has overextended itself in AU and is trying to cram that mistake in the customers' throat by forcing them into those store...


Not from where I am standing. IF that were so then the UK gamers would be paying MASSIVELY over the top for their figures as they have the highest proportion of stores per capita.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I must say this should be marked as a stickey for how and in depth and long this discussion has been goin on.

Oh yeah GW still aint doin shit as I predicted earlier


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

No stickying. That'd kill our chances of killing this thread any time soon, and at this point it's honestly more people blowing off steam than an actual discussion.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Not from where I am standing. IF that were so then the UK gamers would be paying MASSIVELY over the top for their figures as they have the highest proportion of stores per capita.


You have to take into account that almost 40% of stores in the UK are 1 man stores whereas 5.5% of stores in AU are 1 man. So you might actually have a lot more GW employees/bigger stores (bigger rent) per capita in AU, which is a mistake.

Of course, a regional break down might be more revealing. All in all, though, no matter how you calculate the local cost, nothing can justify a 124% increase on AoBR (before local taxes are applied).



> No stickying. That'd kill our chances of killing this thread any time soon, and at this point it's honestly more people blowing off steam than an actual discussion.


From a business point of view, this discussion is actually very interesting. It's also pretty civil.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> No stickying. That'd kill our chances of killing this thread any time soon, and at this point it's honestly more people blowing off steam than an actual discussion.


Actually, I would say its utterly the opposite. At this point its people having a very interresting discussion about economics, earlier it was people blowing off steam. :laugh:




boreas said:


> [You have to take into account that almost 40% of stores in the UK are 1 man stores whereas 5.5% of stores in AU are 1 man. So you might actually have a lot more GW employees/bigger stores (bigger rent) per capita in AU, which is a mistake.


You are going to have to humour me here - ONE MAN stores? As in they only have ONE employee? Ive never seen one of those ever, in fact, other than on a weekday morning ive never seen less than 3 staff in any of the stores Ive been in (Sutton, croydon, kingston, plaza, bluewater, preston, trafford, manchester and a few others ive forgotten).




> Of course, a regional break down might be more revealing. All in all, though, no matter how you calculate the local cost, nothing can justify a 124% increase on AoBR (before local taxes are applied).


Hmm - 33% increase for wages. Lets say 10% increase for shipping? about 5-10% import taxes (see here - http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/notices/ACN0621.pdf).

Thats 53% increase. About 50% higher building, rates electricty costs, transport within australia. So thats got to add at least 25% - 75% increase in cost.

Have I forgotten anything?

You might be right - I dont think I can get to 124% increase (do you have the figures for that, not that I dont trust you id just like to know them).


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> You are going to have to humour me here - ONE MAN stores? As in they only have ONE employee? Ive never seen one of those ever, in fact, other than on a weekday morning ive never seen less than 3 staff in any of the stores Ive been in (Sutton, croydon, kingston, plaza, bluewater, preston, trafford, manchester and a few others ive forgotten).



It's straight out of GW's report. Mind you, I never much go to the Montreal Store, but I've never seen more than 1 employee. It's also pretty small. So, less rent, less wages that bigger stores.




Maidel said:


> Hmm - 33% increase for wages. Lets say 10% increase for shipping? about 5-10% import taxes (see here - http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/notices/ACN0621.pdf).
> 
> Thats 53% increase. About 50% higher building, rates electricty costs, transport within australia. So thats got to add at least 25% - 75% increase in cost.
> 
> ...


AoBR at 61.5 pounds ->49.2 pounds before VAT-> 73.8$AU, compared to 165$AU in AU. 124% Increase.

Also, your formula should be like this:

Cost of product+33%x1/2(Because only half the cost of the product is actually rent and wages, the other 50% is cost of development, material, boxing, etc which is all done in the UK at UK prices)+10%(let's use that, although it's very high for bulk international shipping, I think)+10% import taxes (although I've not seen it mentionned in the GW report and the fact that GW actually has separate companies (subsidiaries?) in the US, Canada and AU to circomvent this!?).

So, that's Cost+16.5%+10%+10%: Cost+36.5%. Or, if applied one after another (ie 100+16.5%= 116.5%, 116.5%+10%=128.15%, 128.15%+10%:141%. Final result, in by my somewhat rusty accounting: 136.5-141%. Ther rest is pocketed currency conversion.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> It's straight out of GW's report. Mind you, I never much go to the Montreal Store, but I've never seen more than 1 employee. It's also pretty small. So, less rent, less wages that bigger stores.


How can you logistically have a '1 man store' he needs 2 days off week like everyone else (should) gets. Perhaps 1 full time member of staff and a bunch of part timers?





> AoBR at 61.5 pounds ->49.2 pounds before VAT-> 73.8, compared to 165 in AU. 124% Increase.


Ah - your maths is wrong. The 165$ includes australian VAT at 10%.

So 73.8 vs 148.5 which is 100% mark up.




> So, that's Cost+16.5%+10%+10%: Cost+36.5%. Or, if applied one after another (ie 100+16.5%= 116.5%, 116.5%+10%=128.15%, 128.15%+10%:141%. Final result, in by my somewhat rusty accounting: 136.5-141%. Ther rest is pocketed currency conversion.


And with your calculations - GW is in fact, making a loss from australia....

Or am I just lost?


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## Uncle Nurgle (Jun 26, 2008)

Maidel said:


> You are going to have to humour me here - ONE MAN stores? As in they only have ONE employee? Ive never seen one of those ever, in fact, other than on a weekday morning ive never seen less than 3 staff in any of the stores Ive been in (Sutton, croydon, kingston, plaza, bluewater, preston, trafford, manchester and a few others ive forgotten).


Both Sutton and Croydon have 1 staff member and a manager...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Uncle Nurgle said:


> Both Sutton and Croydon have 1 staff member and a manager...


So, thats 2 men then?

OR am I missing the point?


EDIT - When I worked in Croydon (long time ago now) it had a manger, 1 or 2 full time members of staff and 3+ part time staff - which I would see as at least a 3 man store (The part timers were at least equivalent to another wage).


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> How can you logistically have a '1 man store' he needs 2 days off week like everyone else (should) gets. Perhaps 1 full time member of staff and a bunch of part timers?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Yeah, a 1 man store, from what I figure is a store small enough to always have 1 employee at a time.

...

Ah! Didn't know AU included tax (here in Canada it's enver included), so a 100% markup. But then, from what I calculate AU cost should be: UK Cost+36-41%, NOT UK cost +100%!

Phil


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

boreas said:


> Yeah, a 1 man store, from what I figure is a store small enough to always have 1 employee at a time.


There are one man stores, they mention them all the time on the GW blog. The Bondi store is a one man store, IIRC, but I don't know if there are even any others in the country, since Bondi is pretty much the newest store I think it may be somewhat of an experiment. Although who's going to Bondi to play plastic space men, I have no idea...



boreas said:


> Ah! Didn't know AU included tax (here in Canada it's enver included), so a 100% markup. But then, from what I calculate AU cost should be: UK Cost+36-41%, NOT UK cost +100%!
> 
> Phil


Yep, we have the GST (Goods and Services tax), which is 10% on top of total cost of a lot of things, notable exception being unprocessed food, so this estimate is probably more correct.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

boreas said:


> Ah! Didn't know AU included tax (here in Canada it's enver included), so a 100% markup. But then, from what I calculate AU cost should be: UK Cost+36-41%, NOT UK cost +100%!
> 
> Phil


this is about right l always got 45% - 50% with the Au dollar doing most of the damage.

the only thing you got a bit off was import taxes. as it's around %17 overall in most case with toys. (note GST is %10 which is added in import/customs tax)

for thoese who want to know, It is broken down like this.

Value of the item. 
Customs duty. (5% of the vaule of the item.)
transport and insurance cost (or postage and insurance) 
Total then add GST or Goods and Services Tax which is 10% 

also one last note.

Duty, GST and other taxes are calculated and payable when you make an import declaration for goods that have a value above A$1000 or if you import alcohol and/or tobacco products.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

sybarite said:


> this is about right l always got 45% - 50% with the Au dollar doing most of the damage.
> 
> the only thing you got a bit off was import taxes. as it's around %17 overall in most case with toys. (note GST is %10 which is added in import/customs tax)
> 
> ...


Which means shit if you do multiple purchases of less than $1000Au.

You can spend a million a week, but if each order is less that a grand you don't incur any import tax, no customs duty, you only pay for postage and insurance (if you want to pay for insurance) and you don't incure any GST.

This is exactly why many of the retailers in Australia want the value to be brought down to $435 dollars.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Which means shit if you do multiple purchases of less than $1000Au.


that's kind of right, if l buy 6 items valued at $200 each ($1200 total) and ship them in the one box then yes l will have to pay full tax etc. On the other hand if l ship 6 item's valued at $100 each ($600 total) then no l dont have to pay tax etc.

now l have no idea how GW does there shipments, but you are right. If they send a few box's per shipment they won't have to pay any customs duty etc.

which also might be why GW dont have customs duty/import tax mentioned in there GW report's.

Edit: they will also still have to pay GST at a later date but they charge us for that anyway .


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## starhawks (Jan 14, 2009)

hungryugolino said:


> Having other idiots congratulate you doesn't make you any less of an idiot.


ha... agreed


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Where I live the tax roof is set at €43, basically if the VAT is less than €10 you dont have to pay any import VAT on stuff. We are not part of EMU which means stores should send everything to use VAT free as we have to pay it at the post office but VERY few do this. Wayland offers free shipping instead while most simply do not send VAT free.

Because of this I try to keep all my orders below €40 as that means I dont have to pay an extra 24% at the post office.

Prices on things can be quite horrendous where I live, my last computer I bought from a German webshop, I paid German VAT and Finnish VAT (I basically paid +40% VAT in total) yet it was still €400 cheaper than buying the exact same computer in a store here.


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