# C.S.M What HQ to start?



## Ahala (Dec 12, 2008)

My brother recently started a Chaos Space Marine Army, and he bought the Battleforce. But guess what, it doesnt come with a HQ... so we've been looking at the HQ choices and just cant decide what one would be the best to start of with. Please help


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

it does depend on personal preference.. i mean does the army have a theme? sometimes people get the special characters to match the god they follow. i have found that a lord in terminator armour works well when ran with terminators... or you could go all the way with a DP a slightly expensive, balls out killer
and there is the humble sorceror, who alot of people i know use as a secondary HQ in larger battles... it really depends on the individual

good luck with the new army (brother) !


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Ahala said:


> My brother recently started a Chaos Space Marine Army, and he bought the Battleforce. But guess what, it doesnt come with a HQ... so we've been looking at the HQ choices and just cant decide what one would be the best to start of with. Please help


Personally, I am considering getting Fabius Bile for my army because he can enhance regular CSM's making them fearless and in addition they can choose an Icon 'and' still have Special Weapons... That is a pretty fearsome combination in my book. Plus around here not many use him.

Can you say hello to my Fearless CSM's with Icon of Khorne, BP&CCW, Champ and 2 Special Weapons?....Yummy!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

FuriousCurioso said:


> Fabius Bile


Watch out. This guy attracts a lot of hate on the interweb.

I'd suggest getting a daemon prince. You can use this in many different ways. They are very powerful, and consequently popular.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Watch out. This guy attracts a lot of hate on the interweb.


Huh? What do you mean?


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Just run a search for him. You find posts like this one.

Personally I prefer to give every option an equal shout. I just wouldn't advise anyone starting out to start with special characters under most circumstances. If you buy a daemon prince you can use it in many different ways, but fabius bile is just fabius bile. That doesn't give you much of a chance to change your army.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Just run a search for him. You find posts like this one.
> 
> Personally I prefer to give every option an equal shout. I just wouldn't advise anyone starting out to start with special characters under most circumstances. If you buy a daemon prince you can use it in many different ways, but fabius bile is just fabius bile. That doesn't give you much of a chance to change your army.


Well for me Fabius isnt really about his stats at all. The thing is, he makes non cult marines Fearless. Also, with him, Fearless is a guaranteed result. So I can for example have 10 CSM enhanced, giving them Fearless and +1 strength guaranteed, still take a cult icon 'and' kit them with Special Weapons...If that isnt bad ass, then what is? Princes can be singled out in shooting and killed rather easily (even Lasguns can wound)while Fabius can run with a squad. Anything else he adds to the army is pure gravy. 

Also the OP says he has a battleforce, thats a potential 15 CSM's enhanced!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Holy ass crackers was someone insane enough to say that fabius bile is in any way better than a DP. No offense, but did you forget your crazy pills. firstly Bill does not ignore armour saves meaning that as a cc marine character he is complete garbage not to mention you average CM is ld 9-10 making fearless much less useful then most armies especially when undivided icon is better for the tactical flexibility it offers. Did you even think of how the average DP can wipe most small MEQ squads while even with a enhanced escort bile has trouble doing the this. Hell this is not taking into account a DP can pen landraiders, and can take marks and psychic powers. Since I could continue on for another paragraph or two I will stop and simply say that bile is not a dependable, nor good choice for a new chaos army. If you insist on taking a named character for fluff reasons take one of the proven ones like Typhus or Kharn hell if you want a point sink take abbadon or even Lucius. Further more I am not saying Bill is a bad character, but he is defiantly not for the inexperienced unless you want to take a cumbersome inflexible HQ that will loss to any half assed CC character or squad. Also as to the idea of a enhanced squad with two special weapons, and a good icon yes it would kick ass, but for the same points my 20 man berzerkers squad with a asp with PW of fist will almost always kill you to the man if they get the charge or not. Also strength 5 for marines does not help as much as you would think because in many cases most of the things marines loss to either don't let you hit back or have 2+ armor saves making the str bonus nice, but not the most pragmatic use for your points.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Holy ass crackers was someone insane enough to say that fabius bile is in any way better than a DP. No offense, but did you forget your crazy pills. firstly Bill does not ignore armour saves meaning that as a cc marine character he is complete garbage not to mention you average CM is ld 9-10 making fearless much less useful then most armies especially when undivided icon is better for the tactical flexibility it offers. Did you even think of how the average DP can wipe most small MEQ squads while even with a enhanced escort bile has trouble doing the this. Hell this is not taking into account a DP can pen landraiders, and can take marks and psychic powers. Since I could continue on for another paragraph or two I will stop and simply say that bile is not a dependable, nor good choice for a new chaos army. If you insist on taking a named character for fluff reasons take one of the proven ones like Typhus or Kharn hell if you want a point sink take abbadon or even Lucius. Further more I am not saying Bill is a bad character, but he is defiantly not for the inexperienced unless you want to take a cumbersome inflexible HQ that will loss to any half assed CC character or squad. Also as to the idea of a enhanced squad with two special weapons, and a good icon yes it would kick ass, but for the same points my 20 man berzerkers squad with a asp with PW of fist will almost always kill you to the man if they get the charge or not. Also strength 5 for marines does not help as much as you would think because in many cases most of the things marines loss to either don't let you hit back or have 2+ armor saves making the str bonus nice, but not the most pragmatic use for your points.


Lets take a more in depth look. 

10 Berserkers, Fearless, Furious Charge, Personal Icon,2 Plasma Pistols, Skull Champ, Power Weapon, 'in Rhino.'=310

10 Man CSM, 'Enhanced' Fearless, Str5, Bolter and BP&CCW included, Icon of Khorne,2 Meltaguns, Champ with Power weapon, 'in Rhino.'=295

Same number of attacks, 4 on the charge, CSM's get str5 regardless of wether or not they charge, Meltas are far superior to Plasma Pistols in all respects and the CSM come with the option of a Bolter...How do you get the equation '20 Berserkers for the same points?' When it clearly costs more to run the Berserkers and they are far less versatile...Or are you just here to stir the pot? I'm guessing you're here for the latter...


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

My suggestion would be a Slaanesh Prince (unless ofcourse your brother is making a themed army that isnt Slaanesh). Slap some Wings on him and give him a Lash of Submission and you have 155 points of killing goodness that moves 12 inches and has the ability to move your opponents units around the battlefield.

Although my friends hate me for using them, Slaanesh Princes have been by far the most effective HQ choice I've ever used (that of course doesn't include special characters).


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Well I did warn you. :biggrin:

The comparison between zerkers and enhanced generic marines with MoK is interesting and you are right that the narines have some advantages. The zerkers' better WS still makes a difference but the flexibility of the enhanced trropers is certainly useful.

The trouble is the characters themselves. Bile is really nothing like as badass as a daemon prince and can't really fight much In cc. You end up with a poor hq, just so you can take guys who are very similar to guys you could take anyway.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Well I did warn you. :biggrin:
> 
> The comparison between zerkers and enhanced generic marines with MoK is interesting and you are right that the narines have some advantages. The zerkers' better WS still makes a difference but the flexibility of the enhanced trropers is certainly useful.
> 
> The trouble is the characters themselves. Bile is really nothing like as badass as a daemon prince and can't really fight much In cc. You end up with a poor hq, just so you can take guys who are very similar to guys you could take anyway.


The difference being that Fabius can hide in a squad giving him a higher chance of survivability 'and' an extended period from which to make up his usefullness, whereas a prince can be singled out and shot to pieces quite easily. Fabius is not 'useless' by any means and I could just as easily call your prince a poor hq. So, what we are left with is a clarified depiction from which Ahala can certainly see both sides of the isle and can make an informed decision. Thats where I stand.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

IMO for chaos HQ there is only one choice and that is daemon princes. They work best with wings and with the mark of slaanesh and with lash of submission.

Buying wise , be patient. A plastic daemon prince is on the way and he looks awesome. Also the plastic one comes with wings unlike the metal one where we have to convert ours.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

I'd recommend going with a Lord / Sorceror to begin with.

Thing is - point for point a DP is a better killing machine & if used properly will be your best bet, BUT that doesn't leave you any room for growth.

If you take one of your CSM models (power armor or terminator armor) & pay a little more attention to him, give him a power weapon & pistol - you now have a model which can double for both a lord & a sorc. This gives you the flexibility with one model to say "today I want to try a sorceror" or today I want to try a Lord.

That power weapon? Well, it can function as a force sword when you're playing sorceror, or it can function as a daemon weapon / power weapon for your lord. Terminators are in the same boat.

If, after a couple of games you decide you don't like the sorceror - or lord with PW / DW, you now have a model which can funtion as an aspiring champion leading a squad with a power weapon. You can then take a different model & build it with a powerfist (say you wanted a lord with more punch, etc)...

That's what I did. I still break out my first PW weilding model & call him a sorceror every now & then... of course, 90% of the time I'm running either lucius, my winged, WT daemon prince, or both...


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

That is actually good advice. You can probably just make one of the plastic guys in your battleforce with a power weapon and use him as a lord/sorceror. Later on you can retire him and turn him into a unit champion.


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

Well The thing about chaos HQ is this in my opinion. DPs have the best in general stat line, and are absolute killing machines. However lords can be a bit easier to use, as you just sit in a unit of deep striking termis and that unit will slaughter. Sorcerers are a middle ground, they get the unit enhancement of a termi lord (although not quite as much so, a lord with daemon wep is scary), While getting the lash of a dp, thus basically turning their unit into a super unit (much like the lord), while getting lash. I dont know how new to the game you are, but if your just getting the ropes, a lord is alot easier to use as he can hide in units, the DP takes some avoidance otherwise your enemy will throw a ton of LCs at it, and it will go down quick! So basically in summary

Lord = easy to use
DP = rock hard stats
sorcerer = crappy lord with lash

However one thing to watch out is don't run 2 DPs unless you are planning to be ultra competitive. Most peaple frown on 2 DPs with lash, and when I ran that list I had 1 player refuse to play me till my list was changed.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> That is actually good advice. You can probably just make one of the plastic guys in your battleforce with a power weapon and use him as a lord/sorceror. Later on you can retire him and turn him into a unit champion.


I also agree that this is a pretty damn good idea.


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## Ahala (Dec 12, 2008)

Hm THat is a really Good piece of advice. THanks everyone for hleping decide, At first my Brother is going to do as suggested make a single guy with power weapon, play around with him for a few games, and then once the plastic DP is out get that.

Thanks again for the advice everyone, Been a great help ^_^


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

FuriousCurioso said:


> Lets take a more in depth look.
> 
> 10 Berserkers, Fearless, Furious Charge, Personal Icon,2 Plasma Pistols, Skull Champ, Power Weapon, 'in Rhino.'=310
> 
> ...


Let's try this again.
Zerks will be striking all ws4 models on 3's, at i5 s5 on the charge, have a better powerfist(ws5 fist? Yes please.) 
Also what the eff personal icon? Nothing in the chaos army beyond obliterators will make use of the deep strike in competitive play. And they don't deep strike usually.

Second both squads NEED to have a powerfist. Powerweapons are bad this edition.

Also you forgot the cost of fabius bile himself, who should take the cake on all useless hq choices.

Oh and protect him in a squad? Until at which point he's targetted seperately by powerfists in combat(Where he's supposed to earn back his points) and dies INSTANTLY.

Not to mention, with the flying lashing prince, the zerkers would almost always get the charge. AND your attached hq wouldn't (on average) kill a single zerker before he was flayed alive. Whereas the daemon prince would merrily stomp half your squad into the dust.

And hell if you think you're scary in combat, try facing zerks who get the charge. You'd be sorely surprised by exactly how 'ineffective' they are.

Trust me, I've tried this kind of list. It's just not as good as zerks and lashing prince. You're welcome to try.


That being said, get a chaos lord with a daemon weapon of slaanesh. With melta bombs. That guy will pimp the field, instantly killing marines, nob bikers, and warbosses before they even move.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Slaneesh Princes...pff go for something fun and not boring, lash can be shut down to easy, It doesn't help when your opponent want s to brought into CC with him and doesn't help when the nail it first turn shooting as I do, the whole tactic is then killed and the army falls apart, go for a khorne lord on juggernaught -that's fun in a box right there.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Let's try this again.
> Zerks will be striking all ws4 models on 3's, at i5 s5 on the charge, have a better powerfist(ws5 fist? Yes please.)
> Also what the eff personal icon? Nothing in the chaos army beyond obliterators will make use of the deep strike in competitive play. And they don't deep strike usually.


Zerks cant dependably expect to get the charge since they cant pop quite a bit of things with their Plasma Pistols...Icon is there for the extra attack, as an example, to keep speed with the attacks Zerks can generate.



LordWaffles said:


> Second both squads NEED to have a powerfist. Powerweapons are bad this edition.


Doesnt matter, all things are equal regarding CCW upgrades.



LordWaffles said:


> Also you forgot the cost of fabius bile himself, who should take the cake on all useless hq choices.


Not everything has to ignore armor saves and be invulnerable in order for it to be fun or even useful.



LordWaffles said:


> Oh and protect him in a squad? Until at which point he's targetted seperately by powerfists in combat(Where he's supposed to earn back his points) and dies INSTANTLY.


Fists go last, so regardless he will get his attacks in. Focus on him and the CCW laden squaddie next to him will be guaranteed at least two phases, he takes the heat off the squad completely if you really want to go that route.



LordWaffles said:


> Not to mention, with the flying lashing prince, the zerkers would almost always get the charge. AND your attached hq wouldn't (on average) kill a single zerker before he was flayed alive. Whereas the daemon prince would merrily stomp half your squad into the dust.


Oh you mean the prince that just died to lasguns? If you can conjecture presumably why can't I?huh?huh?



LordWaffles said:


> And hell if you think you're scary in combat, try facing zerks who get the charge. You'd be sorely surprised by exactly how 'ineffective' they are.


Did I say 'ineffective?' I said my CSM's will be more versatile, with Bolter, Flamer and Melta options you really have nothing that you can throw at that, its fairly evident that I'm right. Hell, I could even put a Heavy in mine...



LordWaffles said:


> Trust me, I've tried this kind of list. It's just not as good as zerks and lashing prince. You're welcome to try.


No, you 'trust me,' I disagree entirely. And, thats that.



LordWaffles said:


> That being said, get a chaos lord with a daemon weapon of slaanesh. With melta bombs. That guy will pimp the field, instantly killing marines, nob bikers, and warbosses before they even move.


Lol, so all of that huffing and puffing and you cant even reccomend sticking to your own advice? Now that, is some funny shit!


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> pff go for something fun and not boring.


And thats exactly where I am at with this game.:goodpost:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Let's clear one thing up. These were the top 3 finishers at the UK GT earlier this year:



FeedBot said:


> 1: Ugo Oliveti, Eldar (Seer council on bikes)
> 2: Di Tomaso, CSM (double lash, 5 oblits, LR with zerkers, plague marine and MoD marines )
> 3: Urban Knight, CSM (2 lash, 4 oblits and Land raiding berzerkers)


Interestingly though, only 7 chaos armies in the top 50. Orks had 13 and eldar 12. 

It is not necessary for anyone on these boards to try to prove or disprove the *absolute* dominance of lash princes as the chaos HQ choice. Fabius bile is, sadly but obviously, much worse. He gives you troops that are about as good as what you can have anyway and does nothing himself. Nothing. A character who can't move fast and fights less effectively than a properly upgraded squad leader (compare the damage he does to that of a skull champion with fist) is irrelevent.

A lash army works so well partly because it does all but guarantee that your zerkers will be charging. They are in a land raider (which DPs can hide behind) so they aren't about to be charged. Enemy units don't get to counter-charge because they are nowhere near the fight. The zerkers are charging a unit which has been dragged far away from any support.

Finally, it's nonsense to say that the army is crippled if lash is negated or the princes are killed. Why? Because a lash prince is one of the cheapest HQs chaos can get and even if it can't cast lash, *it's still a daemon prince*. Shoot it dead and the chaos guy still has a perfectly good army and is no worse off than anybody else who has lost their HQ.

Lots of people dislike lash for one reason or other and almost everyone considers it broken, unfair and wrong to use in casual games. I'd agree with that 100%, but don't try and say it isn't effective. An ability cannot be both broken and worthless.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Let's clear one thing up. These were the top 3 finishers at the UK GT earlier this year:
> 
> Interestingly though, only 7 chaos armies in the top 50. Orks had 13 and eldar 12.
> 
> It is not necessary for anyone on these boards to try to prove or disprove the *absolute* dominance of lash princes as the chaos HQ choice. .


C'mon now! Your 'model' is what us ******** in the states call 'Fuzzy Math.' Since your 'model' is completely irrelevant I'll elaborate as to why it isnt relevant...First and foremost, if all of the top CSM armies ran Lash Princes its no wonder that the ones who placed did it with Lash Princes. Secondly, if no one ran Fabius Bile then there is no way to even think of how to compare his value or effectiveness. Lastly, if multiple people didn't use him in a capacity that reflects the same amount of people who used Lash princes then your 'model' lacks any similar saturation in the circuit. It is for these reasons that you can never really say that if there was a similar amount of players using Fabius Bile that the likelyhood of those who placed would have done so with him despite your claims that he is ineffective...:shok:



Someguy said:


> Fabius bile is, sadly but obviously, much worse.


That is a matter of opinion...



Someguy said:


> He gives you troops that are about as good as what you can have anyway and does nothing himself. Nothing. A character who can't move fast and fights less effectively than a properly upgraded squad leader (compare the damage he does to that of a skull champion with fist) is irrelevent.


I'd say theres quite a big difference in the type of troops he can generate compared to cult troops. Also why exactly does he do 'nothing?' Are you gonna just stand him in the middle of the field with his thumb up his ass in order to get him shot to death? Or are you gonna use your cleverness to find a good spot and purpose for him. Is what you're really trying to say here is that 'you' are incapable of using him effectively? I'll also add that he does what he does for less points per head.



Someguy said:


> A lash army works so well partly because it does all but guarantee that your zerkers will be charging. They are in a land raider (which DPs can hide behind) so they aren't about to be charged. Enemy units don't get to counter-charge because they are nowhere near the fight. The zerkers are charging a unit which has been dragged far away from any support.


The reason a Lash army is at the forefront is because thats what everyone plays. If everyone played with Fabius or 'any' other character in a similar quantity/capacity then the people who do place would be doing it with him...



Someguy said:


> Finally, it's nonsense to say that the army is crippled if lash is negated or the princes are killed. Why? Because a lash prince is one of the cheapest HQs chaos can get and even if it can't cast lash, *it's still a daemon prince*. Shoot it dead and the chaos guy still has a perfectly good army and is no worse off than anybody else who has lost their HQ.


Same sword cuts both ways, if I lost Fabius for some reason I'd still have a whole army for you to deal with...*Shrug* not sure what you're trying to say here exactly. That comment was never even made by me...but as you can see its only simple logic that it works the same for both sides. The difference being that you can be singled out with shooting much easier and hiding behind a Land Raider isnt really gonna do much to protect you against a fast army.



Someguy said:


> Lots of people dislike lash for one reason or other and almost everyone considers it broken, unfair and wrong to use in casual games. I'd agree with that 100%, but don't try and say it isn't effective. An ability cannot be both broken and worthless.


I never said it wasnt effective. In fact I like princes and even GD's...All I said was that I was considering aquiring and using Fabius Bile and I have pinned down exactly why I think he is so good again and again in the face of your discontent. Not sure what good you are doing yourself by trying to butt heads with me on it. Both of our opinions have been made clear and our divisions arent likely to change so whats all the 'hub bub?'


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I wasn't trying to do a statistical analysis. I was saying that two of the top three finishers in the UKGT (out of a field of around 450 travelling from all across Europe) had run double lash princes.

It's nothing to do with Maths, fuzzy or otherwise. It's a question of results. These guys can legitimately claim to be some of the best players in the world and they have chosen to take lash.

I do respect your opinion. However you have to recognise that you are in a minority. The majority includes some very good players. These guys are not unimaginitive and they would have found better options if they existed. Their success says more about their own skill and the power of their armies than any amount of maths or writen explanations. They have nothing to prove. 

This really is not a personal thing. It's good that there is debate and you make your points well. However the purpose of this thread is to give advice to a guy starting out. If I think he's getting bad advice I'll say so. My original suggestion was to get a daemon prince that he could use in many different ways and I stand by that. My preferred outcome would be for him to come up with his own way of playing rather than copying anyone else.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

take kharn dammit no need for double lashy lists!


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> I wasn't trying to do a statistical analysis. I was saying that two of the top three finishers in th UKGT (out of a field of around 450 travelling from all across Europe) had run double lash princes.
> 
> It's nothing to do with Maths, fuzzy or otherwise. It's a question of results. These guys can legitimately claim to be some of the best players in the world and they have chosen to take lash.


Once again, if a similar amount of people used Fabius Bile in the same circuit to those who use Lash Princes, whos to say that the people who placed wouldn't be doing it with Fabius???



Someguy said:


> I do respect your opinion. However you have to recognise that you are in a minority. The majority includes some very good players. These guys are not unimaginitive and they would have found better options if they existed. Their success says more about their own skill and the power of their armies than any amount of maths or writen explanations. They have nothing to prove.


I never said I wasn't in the minority, in fact I've blatantly stated the opposite several times in several ways. The minority also includes some good players, I don't see your point...Dual Lash Prince is far from imaginitive and its also less cunning than several other options.



Someguy said:


> This really is not a personal thing. It's good that there is debate and you make your points well. However the purpose of this thread is to give advice to a guy starting out. If I think he's getting bad advice I'll say so..


Yep but somehow youve hijacked it in order to propogate your personal agenda simply because you are unable to use an special character effectively...:clapping: I have debunked everything you've thrown my way with facts and you still want to argue. :stop:



Someguy said:


> My original suggestion was to get a daemon prince that he could use in many different ways and I stand by that. My preferred outcome would be for him to come up with his own way of playing rather than copying anyone else.


Ahh, so its ok to copy your advice but not mine? is that what this is all about? Fabius Bile will add more character to any army than a Lash Prince could ever dream of. Not only that but its less likely you will be shunned as a bonehead with him. A little ironic eh?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

FuriousCurioso said:


> Zerks cant dependably expect to get the charge since they cant pop quite a bit of things with their Plasma Pistols...Icon is there for the extra attack, as an example, to keep speed with the attacks Zerks can generate.


Lash prince.
Your move.





FuriousCurioso said:


> Doesnt matter, all things are equal regarding CCW upgrades.


It proves to me that you are somewhat newer to the hobby. I'm trying to help you with this. Don't take power weapons.





FuriousCurioso said:


> Not everything has to ignore armor saves and be invulnerable in order for it to be fun or even useful.


Yes. Yes it kinda does.

Fun is arguable, but useful? Yeah. At that point level I better be getting an hq who has some sort of better tricks up his sleeve than feel no pain and s5.





FuriousCurioso said:


> Fists go last, so regardless he will get his attacks in. Focus on him and the CCW laden squaddie next to him will be guaranteed at least two phases, he takes the heat off the squad completely if you really want to go that route.


The point is, I can make a 60 point unit kill a 140 point without fail mathematically. He'll kill(if he's lucky) a 21 point zerker.

And CCW squad? Try templar. Or charging zerks. You've just made a bloated squad of s5 marines.





FuriousCurioso said:


> Oh you mean the prince that just died to lasguns? If you can conjecture presumably why can't I?huh?huh?


Because mine happens on a regular basis in games. You present a strawman argument. :3




FuriousCurioso said:


> Did I say 'ineffective?' I said my CSM's will be more versatile, with Bolter, Flamer and Melta options you really have nothing that you can throw at that, its fairly evident that I'm right. Hell, I could even put a Heavy in mine...


Yes. Put a heavy weapon in a unit that is 'designed' to initiate combat. That'll strike the fear of god into people.

"Oh shi- Those expensive marines are firing a -heavy- -bolter-...while one dies per turn to fabulous smiles stupid roll of six"





FuriousCurioso said:


> No, you 'trust me,' I disagree entirely. And, thats that.


Just promise me you won't be making a thread later, bitching about how every other army is cheap, unfair, and how your marines get stomped and I'll let you entirely off the hook.





FuriousCurioso said:


> Lol, so all of that huffing and puffing and you cant even reccomend sticking to your own advice? Now that, is some funny shit!


Hahaha. 1/10. 

Even an unfocused monkey could find that the daemon prince is the best hq. I like pushing aside the mental block to actually try to suggest new alternatives to new chaos players like you. Because playing chaos is like hitting your head against a brick wall for some players. Until they exhaust all the needless choices(lords, sorcerors, fabius bile, nilla marines) they keep trying them. And losing tournaments.



FuriousCurioso said:


> C'mon now! Your 'model' is what us ******** in the states call 'Fuzzy Math.' Since your 'model' is completely irrelevant I'll elaborate as to why it isnt relevant...First and foremost, if all of the top CSM armies ran Lash Princes its no wonder that the ones who placed did it with Lash Princes. Secondly, if no one ran Fabius Bile then there is no way to even think of how to compare his value or effectiveness. Lastly, if multiple people didn't use him in a capacity that reflects the same amount of people who used Lash princes then your 'model' lacks any similar saturation in the circuit. It is for these reasons that you can never really say that if there was a similar amount of players using Fabius Bile that the likelyhood of those who placed would have done so with him despite your claims that he is ineffective...:shok:


Lol. People can't place with Fabius Bile. Because he is bad.





FuriousCurioso said:


> That is a matter of opinion...


You're an opinion.




FuriousCurioso said:


> I'd say theres quite a big difference in the type of troops he can generate compared to cult troops. Also why exactly does he do 'nothing?' Are you gonna just stand him in the middle of the field with his thumb up his ass in order to get him shot to death? Or are you gonna use your cleverness to find a good spot and purpose for him. Is what you're really trying to say here is that 'you' are incapable of using him effectively? I'll also add that he does what he does for less points per head.


Well let's get him into combat. Okay. He's windmilling about uselessly with S5 attacks. Now he's fisted. Awesome.

Fabius Bile is a trap.



FuriousCurioso said:


> The reason a Lash army is at the forefront is because thats what everyone plays. If everyone played with Fabius or 'any' other character in a similar quantity/capacity then the people who do place would be doing it with him...


The reason a 'gun using' army is at the forefront of the world is because that's what everyone uses. If everyone used knives or 'any' other martial weapon in a similar quantity/capacity then the people who do win wars would be doing it with those...




FuriousCurioso said:


> Same sword cuts both ways, if I lost Fabius for some reason I'd still have a whole army for you to deal with...*Shrug* not sure what you're trying to say here exactly. That comment was never even made by me...but as you can see its only simple logic that it works the same for both sides. The difference being that you can be singled out with shooting much easier and hiding behind a Land Raider isnt really gonna do much to protect you against a fast army.


But you lose fabius to one lascannon/fist as opposed to four(or really seven due to invul save...Seeing as you play fabius bile, you wouldn't know what those are. It's a save that stops you from being raped.)





FuriousCurioso said:


> I never said it wasnt effective. In fact I like princes and even GD's...All I said was that I was considering aquiring and using Fabius Bile and I have pinned down exactly why I think he is so good again and again in the face of your discontent. Not sure what good you are doing yourself by trying to butt heads with me on it. Both of our opinions have been made clear and our divisions arent likely to change so whats all the 'hub bub?'


I think your argument is adorable, but I stopped reading as soon as I saw "even GD's". What're you talking about? Nobody is advocating those.

And even if they were it's better than fabius bile.



FuriousCurioso said:


> Once again, if a similar amount of people used Fabius Bile in the same circuit to those who use Lash Princes, whos to say that the people who placed wouldn't be doing it with Fabius???


Because Fabius loses all the time against good lists.

It'd be like "If only people used chaos spawn..."




FuriousCurioso said:


> I never said I wasn't in the minority, in fact I've blatantly stated the opposite several times in several ways. The minority also includes some good players, I don't see your point...Dual Lash Prince is far from imaginitive and its also less cunning than several other options.


The minority includes good players, but bad list writers.



FuriousCurioso said:


> Yep but somehow youve hijacked it in order to propogate your personal agenda simply because you are unable to use an special character effectively...:clapping: I have debunked everything you've thrown my way with facts and you still want to argue. :stop:


If you mean 'facts' as 'ridiculous conjecture' and 'argue' as 'reply to a troll' yes that's about right.




FuriousCurioso said:


> Ahh, so its ok to copy your advice but not mine? is that what this is all about? Fabius Bile will add more character to any army than a Lash Prince could ever dream of. Not only that but its less likely you will be shunned as a bonehead with him. A little ironic eh?


I saw a fabius bile at a local tournament. I kinda laughed at him. Loudly. Than proceeded to table his expensive marines and useless hq with a list I made the night before. 

He was only original in the fact that the twin lash player armies gave me trouble.


You seem to be making your rebuttals a little more personal than need really requires. Perhaps you should calm down before posting a mile-wide tirade about how we don't know how to play bad characters? I do. I put him in a box and leave him until next edition when he's back to 114 points and useful.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

FuriousCurioso said:


> Once again, if a similar amount of people used Fabius Bile in the same circuit to those who use Lash Princes, whos to say that the people who placed wouldn't be doing it with Fabius???


But don't you think the _Best_ players would be using Fabius bile if he was better than a lash Prince? There's a reason they're using Lash Princes and Fabius isn't heading the top lists and I'm damn sure it isn't coincidence 



FuriousCurioso said:


> I never said I wasn't in the minority, in fact I've blatantly stated the opposite several times in several ways. The minority also includes some good players, I don't see your point...Dual Lash Prince is far from imaginitive and its also less cunning than several other options.


Less options such as? I'm not being sarcastic or rude, I'm just genuinely interested in what's a better HQ choice then the ones used by Tournament winners



FuriousCurioso said:


> Yep but somehow youve hijacked it in order to propogate your personal agenda simply because you are unable to use an special character effectively...:clapping: I have debunked everything you've thrown my way with facts and you still want to argue. :stop:


Are you sure Someguy hasn't done something to you in a past life? I'd hardly call it a hijacking... And propogating personal agenda? Seriously? When I see him running around forcing people to use a certain units and not just giving helpful advice (Read: giving an example of a very cheap and extremley effective unit)



FuriousCurioso said:


> Ahh, so its ok to copy your advice but not mine? is that what this is all about? Fabius Bile will add more character to any army than a Lash Prince could ever dream of. Not only that but its less likely you will be shunned as a bonehead with him. A little ironic eh?


I don't know, you can write ANY fluff you like for a Daemon prince and your modelling opportunities are limited only by your imagination (and correct sized base *cough*). Another thing; when did he tell the starter of this thread to specifically not listen to your advice?


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay...everybody...stop...AND DANCE! :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping: :stop::stop::stop::stop::stop:

Sorry 'bout that, (got a bit bored) by anywho back on the subject I agree that a DP is prob one of the best ways to start, as evidently said by every1 else its tough, dangerous and has a crapload of utilities, particularly lash, which you don't have to go for if you don't wan't people whining about it, there's other combos that work very well. The only drawback is right now its still pewter so it's really your call in any case. IC I would stay away from until you're more famliar with your playstyle, though if were to choose I'd go for Kharn, that guy is a madman in CC. As for Fabius Bile why bother with him? IMO his model is...uh well bad and that his upsides are not worth it for his price tag and besides upgrading the vanilla troops he's relatively useless. Anyway hope this helped, GL with your choice and DON'T DRINK SOAP! :santa:


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> It proves to me that you are somewhat newer to the hobby. I'm trying to help you with this. Don't take power weapons.
> 
> Even an unfocused monkey could find that the daemon prince is the best hq. I like pushing aside the mental block to actually try to suggest new alternatives to new chaos players like you.
> 
> ...


 :sarcastichand:

You know what? You're not even worth my time Troll.


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## FuriousCurioso (Mar 1, 2009)

Concrete Hero said:


> Less options such as? I'm not being sarcastic or rude, I'm just genuinely interested in what's a better HQ choice then the ones used by Tournament winners


You really need to read the thread, its not my obligation to rerepeat things that have been said over and over again defining the parameters of the additional versatility...


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

FuriousCurioso said:


> Ahh, so its ok to copy your advice but not mine? is that what this is all about? Fabius Bile will add more character to any army than a Lash Prince could ever dream of. Not only that but its less likely you will be shunned as a bonehead with him. A little ironic eh?


 You wouldnt be shunned playing Fabius Bile, players looking for an easy victory would flock to you... Having approx 150pts of useless Hq holding your army together...
and to answer the original question... You cannot go better than a lash prince.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I've closed this thread. I've got nothing against people arguing but once people start calling each other trolls there's nowhere else to go.

It's a shame because actually I don't think either side was trolling, at least for a long time. Some good points were made and I even think Furious Curioso made the case that enhanced troopers with MoK are on a par with zerkers. It might be worth trying them some time, maybe in a big game where I wouldn't mind having a spectator character.


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