# Are the space marine the best troops in the 40 K



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

There is a difference in table top play vs fluff but I am wondering are the space marine the best fighters in the 40 K universe? 

I mean I know that the Space marine is better than an Imperial guardsman or even the average Ork. 

But how much do they measure up against Necrons, tyranids , and eldar. 

I think from table top stats eldar are weaker but make it up in initiative but from fluff it depends. A highly trained Eldar can beat a space marine in one and one fight. I think it;s the same with Necrons and tyranids .


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## jonileth (Feb 1, 2012)

As far as Fluff is concerned, it really depends on the individual author's interpretation of the various races as to how strong they are at any given point. In my reading, it would seem to me that there is a relative balance in the 40K universe, and that the fluff being developed heavily influences the outcome of any major encounter. As a general rule, I would say that Space Marines have a decided edge, given that they have access to higher end Imperial technology. That does not, however, mean that the other races, like the Necrons and Eldar are at some disadvantage. 

I believe the reason the fluff doesn't mirror the table top game is because the rules for 40K are a very basic generalization of the powers these races possess. Each individual may very well be weaker or stronger for any number of reasons in the fluff that aren't quantifiable by the rules. So in general, it really all depends on who does the writing and what it is meant to portray. Sometimes it works better for a story to have the Space Marines beaten back by some other race. Other times, monumental victories over great adversity are better for the telling. It simply boils down to what makes the better story.


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

Well if you wanna go by the books im pretty sure the cabal in the horus heresy books state the legions astartes are the most devastating force the galaxy has ever seen.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

What do you mean by "troops"?

In terms of power per a head, I'd imagine an Imperial Titan can bring more to the table.

In operations that require stealth and infiltration, a Callidus assassin is going to get you a lot more mileage.

A protracted war? Orks, Tyranids and Necrons will go a lot further.

Against Daemon-hosts and the like? Grey Knights (which I think should be made distinct from standard Space Marine forces), powerful psykers, and Pariahs should be placed ahead of Space Marines in general.

Space Marines are very good at what they do--a surgical strike tool that can apply overwhelming force to a very small area.

Their small numbers, inability to replace losses in a timely manner, conspicuousness, and lack of massive ordnance means that they're not a force you can throw at every target.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The space marines have been thrown at literally every target. The Hunt for Voldorious showed that they can handle Daemon Princes as well as the UM novel where they took on M'Kar. They've taken on Necrons as well as tyranid threats. I'm not talking about the Deathwatch or GK either in these cases I mean conventional Astartes. Ragnar spent the first couple novels taking on Maddox until he eventually defeated him. Before the Special Mission units (Deathwatch and GK) existed the Astartes were and are used to tackle every problem in the galaxy. They are the greatest soldiers in the Imperium in that they are designed to fight in almost any war anywhere.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

...no neither in fluff or on the table. Marines are the best of the basic imperial infantry, but xeno's have elite warriors that can easily take marines on one to one, and some are even more intelligent and organized. Yet still I would rate loyalist marines on the higher side of the scale for sure.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Honestly, the only accurate answer is to do this by chapter by chapter against the opposing faction. Once you do that I'd break it down literally to individual marines.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Blood letter butcher marines in CC, Eldar specialist can shoot out a marines eye 300-400 yards off. So please demonstrate to us why we should think marines are the besteest outside of 40k novels, novels that often degrade into army specific wank fests were seemingly impossible feats are common place?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Blood letter butcher marines in CC, Eldar specialist can shoot out a marines eye 300-400 yards off. So please demonstrate to us why we should think marines are the besteest outside of 40k novels, novels that often degrade into army specific wank fests were seemingly impossible feats are common place?


Calm down.

It all depends on what the definition of troops is. Just of all the units in general. Or just for the various armies basic frontline trooper. In which case the Marines arguably are one of the best. From pretty much all accounts we see they are better than your average Ork, Hormogaunt, Eldar Guardian, Fire Warrior etc. Chaos Marines should be about equal if we took just average run of the mill marines(loyal and chaos). Obviously as others have said it can vary enormously depending on what fluff your reading. If your reading an Eldar codex, even the lowliest Guardian is probably going to be better than a Marine. But if we take all the fluff available and average it out. A Marine again probably is the best(if we are just going one for one here, not on a battle scale or numbers value)

If your going to start throwing daemons and aspect warriors in, then in return you should up the marine to a Terminator, Veteran Sergeant of even Grey Knights.

As we all know its purely subjective and entirely dependent on what source your reading the fluff from.


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

I dont know much about eldar, but I can shoot a soda can at 1,000 yards, so eldar need to go back to the shooting range if 3-400 is all they got.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

DK1 said:


> I dont know much about eldar, but I can shoot a soda can at 1,000 yards, so eldar need to go back to the shooting range if 3-400 is all they got.


It's a difference in weaponry. 

I think the shuriken catapults are probably closer to an assault rifle, maybe even a shotgun. It'd be pretty hard to hit anything specifically with a weapon like that.

On the TT they're assault weapons with a range of 12".


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I'll ignore the books, because any book specifically about space marines usually starts out with the author masturbating furiously to a picture of the space marines while typing with the other hand, then continues this way for the entire book.

So we'll look at fluff in codices, the Dawn of War games, tabletop rules, and all other sources of fluff, which there are plenty. Going by these sources, Space Marines are indeed quite badass, but they aren't godlike super beings that eat gunpowder and shit bullets. They die like any other human, and lets face it, even though they live for hundreds of years, have multiple organs, and are genetically modified, they are still that, human. When they get shot, they bleed. They can even... Gasp! Die! And its not always heroic, where the sergeant gets gunned down, the rest of the unit roars in righteous fury, then slays their opponents in a blaze of glorious minimally Pyrrhic victory! Sometimes, entire units get gunned down, and though they die with valor, a defeat is still a defeat. Plus they are prone to all the faults of the flesh, such as corruption by chaos, to name the most important.

One for one, yeah, space marines are really awesome. But, one for one, an Archon is one of the best psykers in the galaxy. But there aren't too many archons, while there are hundreds of sanctioned psykers, Weirdboyz, chaos sorcerors, and other, lesser psykers. The problem is, for every space marine, there are a hundred enemies. The only thing keeping the space marines alive and victorious is that their enemies are just as willing to fight each other as they are to fight humans.

So yes, space marines are, one on one, pretty awesome. I would say the only thing that could compete on a one on one scale would be an Immortal. Space marines can have hundreds of years of battle experience, live their entire life with the singular goal of combat, have tough, impenetrable armor, devastating weapons, fear nothing, are super strong, etc. Immortals can lay claim to all of this as well.

But there just aren't enough space marines to hold the entire galaxy at bay. If there were, they would have done it by now.


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## Matheau (Nov 30, 2010)

It depends by what you mean by "best." That's a very vague term.

However, in terms of overall "best," Eldar and Dark Eldar are the most likely choices on a one on one basis. The problem is all of the advantages Space Marines have over Dark Eldar and Eldar are rendered obsolete by all the weapons that can kill them in a single hit fluff wise, many of which are Eldar and Dark Eldar weapons. So, all that armor and improved constitution is rendered meaningless. On the other hand, Eldar and Dark Eldar have sharper senses than the Space Marines, they are faster, they are smaller targets, and they are more skilled with their weapons. Those are advantages that actually do matter. They are going to die in one hit from a Space Marine, but the odds favor them getting their one hit kill first, even before you factor in all the extra goodies they have.


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

also is "best" based on what could count as troops? Like taking Logan unlocks wolf guard as troops?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

DK1 said:


> I dont know much about eldar, but I can shoot a soda can at 1,000 yards, so eldar need to go back to the shooting range if 3-400 is all they got.


A soda can at a 1,000 yrds? That's up there with police and military marksmen in the field, impressive assuming it's true. 

But in this case Eldar can do it with a rifle, on the move, in a fire fight.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

A good point has been brought up one that I think should be discussed further and that is what does the thread mean by best. Best ranged fighters, best guerrilla fighters, best infiltrators, or just all around best all comers infantry soldiers. Because in respects to the last point could you make a strong argument in favor of imperial marines.


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> A soda can at a 1,000 yrds? That's up there with police and military marksmen in the field, impressive assuming it's true.
> 
> But in this case Eldar can do it with a rifle, on the move, in a fire fight.



I have a Savage .308 Tach barrel Rifle, and i am a marksman in the United States Army. You don't have to believe me its just internet, wont hurt my feelings.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

well, depends on which legion, space marines are split into different groups, best guerilla would be raven guard, best infiltrators alpha legion etc....
the emperor created them all with different abilities that would complement one another, imperial fists make fortresses, iron warriors excell at smashing them down, so it could be said that overall space marines are VERY good at everything.(thousandsons are very intelligent, iron hands are good with technology)
precisely why the only way to defeat the imperium would be to turn it against itself hence the horus heresy, because they are overall undefeatble.
(Since OP said space marines in general, im free to choose whatever legion of the space marines i wish)
And as for the *highly trained eldar vs regular space marine* a highly trained space marine can aslo kill a highly trained eldar, for instance when lucius fought & killed, i think 3 eldar swordsmen at once.
or for instance how grey knights (the absoloute elite) can kill even blood thirsters


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

DK1 said:


> I have a Savage .308 Tach barrel Rifle, and i am a marksman in the United States Army. You don't have to believe me its just internet, wont hurt my feelings.


Being an Army Marksman explains it nicely. It seems Eldar Rangers are operating like modern snipers roughly, except shooting moving (actively engaged) targets in the eye (or neck joints) at long range (how ever you determine range in 40K) and these are just normal Eldar dudes, not Aspect Warriors. Aspect Warriors use notionally weak powered ranged weapons, las pistols and shuriken pistols to target armour weak points on the charge. 

In terms of general troops for general job it's clear Space Marines are the best all rounders. They are outclassed at close combat by some, outclassed at range by others but as generalists they excel. It's been shown that Harlequins can literally shred Space Marines, but that is a specific setting and general troops Harlequins are strictly worse than Marines.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Iron Angel said:


> But there just aren't enough space marines to hold the entire galaxy at bay. If there were, they would have done it by now.


Except that Marines are holding the entire galaxy at bay (not alone but still). And in yea olden days of the Great Crusade they conquered pretty much the entire galaxy (pretty much alone). So, yeah. Marines have a proven track record against the other denizens of the galaxy.

Marines were created to be the finest fighting force in the galaxy, and I'd say they're a success. They outclass most things (including basic Eldar troops) and outnumber those few things that outclass them (Aspect Warriors, etc). They are more tactically flexible than almost any other squad out there and fully trained to take advantage of this.



Matheau said:


> However, in terms of overall "best," Eldar and Dark Eldar are the most likely choices on a one on one basis. The problem is all of the advantages Space Marines have over Dark Eldar and Eldar are rendered obsolete by all the weapons that can kill them in a single hit fluff wise, many of which are Eldar and Dark Eldar weapons. So, all that armor and improved constitution is rendered meaningless. On the other hand, Eldar and Dark Eldar have sharper senses than the Space Marines, they are faster, they are smaller targets, and they are more skilled with their weapons. Those are advantages that actually do matter. They are going to die in one hit from a Space Marine, but the odds favor them getting their one hit kill first, even before you factor in all the extra goodies they have.


I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. Having played DE since my first days of 40k I can tell you that most of them do not carry weapons that can 1 hit-kill a marine. I can further tell you that the rest of the squad will be lucky to combine for another kill or two. Whereas the Marines will literally paste pretty much the entire squad in return. DE are faster than Marines but Marines are tough enough to survive anything but the elite CC squads/weapons and Marines are strong and skilled enough to do lots more damage in return. The key to defeating Marines with DE is isolating and ganging up, using superior numbers and/or elite troops to target basic units. This is not a tactic that you would have to utilize if your troops (as in basic units) were as superior as you seem to think they are.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Lost&Damned said:


> well, depends on which legion, space marines are split into different groups, best guerilla would be raven guard, best infiltrators alpha legion etc....


Best infiltrator in 40k are and have always been Callidus and Lacrymoles compared to them even the best marine infiltrator or guerilla combatant seems like a mentally challenged orc. The fact that you would even claim marines as the best in these specialist roles talks volumes about how much people learn about the deep fluff from reading the space marine novels, and the corresponding codex.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Best infiltrator in 40k are and have always been Callidus and Lacrymoles compared to them even the best marine infiltrator or guerilla combatant seems like a mentally challenged orc. The fact that you would even claim marines as the best in these specialist roles talks volumes about how much people learn about the deep fluff from reading the space marine novels, and the corresponding codex.


well looking at their track record compared to say the alpha legion, they never managed to infiltrate any space marine legion, the alpha legion infiltrated most notably the raven guard, worldeaters, as far as im aware the callidus/lacrymoles never managed such a feat, should also point out the alpha legion use similar methods and mortals to infiltrate whatever they wanted (i.e. they used surgery, chemical enhancements etc...) they also had a galaxy wide infiltration system where they undermined the emperor authority and brought several worlds under horus's control without an astrates ever stepping on them, just using deceit and infiltration (through a bionically enhanced mortal), they also wiped out (using primarily their subterfuge skills) several chapters.
and sorry for being a filthy casual.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Wow your actaully arguing that creatures that can change their form at will and have assassinated chapter masters and harder targets are worse at infiltration then 9-10 foot tall space marines....wow just wow the fan boyism runs strong in this one. Hell the Lacrymoles posed such a threat because of what they could do that a entire order xeno force was launched to try and purge them from existence.

Also no offense but if the alpha legion or other groups uses another humanoid specialists then its no longer a marine doing it and your argument stops having any baring on the current argument what so ever, because we aren't arguing which military faction is best but which infantry soldier is the best. So saying that the inquisition can take X and y xenos does nothing to boast the argument if a imperial storm trooper is the best human soldier.

Please someone else chip in here because this is bordering on the delusional.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I would say as a basic unit they are pretty close to the top of the pile due to their numerous advantages. Granted other forces boast stronger individual units but the basic tactical marine (and their chaos brethren) are meant to be excellent all across the board and not specialized. Just looking at their organs you can see how wide a variety of potential battle grounds the Emperor was preparing them for. Elite Unites, assassins and the like, are of course going to be better one on one but the SM are supposed to be the best soldier that can be mass produced (sort of). I'd say that they succeed to a large extent.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep I think it is the general consensus now that marines are at the top or near the top of the pile for best rank and file infantry, but anyone that argues that marines are the best at everything needs to look up the word bolter porn.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Depends on what author you read. If you read Aaron-Dembski Bowden's Night Lords trilogy, Space Marines are crappy, shoddy, blindly faithful warriors with the tactical sense of a sponge. If you read the work of a particular peculiarly-named waste of flesh, they're the singular most powerful warriors in the history of ever thanks to their massively enhanced bodies and superior armament, the multi-laser. I don't like either representation.

Midnight


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Also no offense but if the alpha legion or other groups uses another humanoid specialists then its no longer a marine doing it and your argument stops having any baring on the current argument what so ever, because we aren't arguing which military faction is best but which infantry soldier is the best. So saying that the inquisition can take X and y xenos does nothing to boast the argument if a imperial storm trooper is the best human soldier.


yes, you are right.i was talking about humanoid specialists when we were talking about marines, i retract my previous statement, overall callidus etc... is better, but i still believe that the Alphas are better at infiltrating other astrates.
and im sure the imperium would rather destroy the Alphas than the lacrymoles


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Best infiltrator in 40k are and have always been Callidus and Lacrymoles compared to them even the best marine infiltrator or guerilla combatant seems like a mentally challenged orc. The fact that you would even claim marines as the best in these specialist roles talks volumes about how much people learn about the deep fluff from reading the space marine novels, and the corresponding codex.


Pay more attention to peoples posts and stop getting so aggressive. He clearly states in his post he's talking about the best infiltrators out of the Legions, as in the Astartes.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

What about the Eldar? I think fluff wise their units like the banshee or warp spider (which are pretty standard) or the D.Eldar equivalents are equal to the Space Marines one on one. Not the guardians, because they're citizen militia and don't share the same bracket with the spess muhreens.

Granted they are either overpowered or hilariously weak in many books, but still.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Pay more attention to peoples posts and stop getting so aggressive. He clearly states in his post he's talking about the best infiltrators out of the Legions, as in the Astartes.


Actually judging by his reply he was in fact arguing that marines are the best and all that matter is which marine is the best at which job, besides by time you replied we had resolved the issue peaceably. Also even if I was wrong the entire purpose of the thread is to discuss which infantry is the best not which marine group so my interpretation is a logical one.

Although I will agree that the marine faction he sited are the best marines at what they do bar none. Also I think the particular xeno race I mentioned was allegedly wiped out by the combined efforts of marines and ordo Xenos inquisitors during the great crusade period. I think its mentioned in the Horus heresy series.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Intelligence/Counter Intelligence: Chaos, Inquisition,Eldar, Alpha Legion

Recon/Assassination/Infiltration- Eldar Rangers, Officio Assassinorum, Dark Eldar Incubus,Genestealers, Raven Guard

Infantry- Imperial Guard as well as planetary military, Eldar warriors, Orks, Tyranids lower than Carnifex, Tau fire caste, and Lost and the Damned

Shock Troops-Adeptus Astartes, Aspect Warriors of Eldar, Dark Eldar Wracks or Grotesque's, and the Tyranid Tervigon and Warrior Primes. 



These are in my opinion how it breaks down. There's no overall best of any group otherwise there wouldn't be a table top game that was any good or successful. Take a minute and think about it. Any warrior or sports team has individuals specialize in certain areas. That's the point of an army everbody concentrates on a discipline become a subject matter experts and increasing the overall military's capability. If you listed a mission and asked what groupl would be the best to accomplish it then you could narrow it down.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Alpha Legion should very much be in your infiltration list as well. They're just a little bit amazing at it in all fairness.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

True, but they specialize more in intelligence and espionage infiltration. The Inflitration I'm referring to more goes with special operations commando type infiltration. Your right though they are jack of all trades.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Are you considering xenos that aren't represented in the codecies, but are mentioned in the fiction? Mind you half of them are insanely hard to find info on as they are mentioned in only 2-3 GW sources, and some of which is old enough to make finding said references really hard.

Its to bad GW by its nature can't release definitive statements on equipment stats and physiological profiles as it makes it impossible to say which is better in real close calls between to infantry specialists.

I still advocate that arastates are the best generalized troops and that the best specialists are often found in alien or imperial adhumans (Most assassins would have a real hard time being classified as human anymore even more so then a space marine).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Which xenos are you referring too? I'm just putting this list out with the ones I'm familiar with in each faction.I didn't list the Astartes in regular troops because they fufill a shock troops roll even en masse along with the other groups I named. Also I think that when talking about psykers, navigators, post-humans,and the mechanicus the definition of human has been broadened a bit.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Are Space Marines the best troops in 40k? 

Yes. One to one they can take almost anything. Most of the creatures they cannot fight are far more than mere "troops." 


A marine defeats a daemon prince in one source. A marine defeats a carnifex in another. I have read of marines defeating dreadnoughts even. 

What has defeated marines in the lore? Usually it is either superior numbers or a foe far above the scale of mere troops. I know this is not absolute but it is a fair indication of the norm.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Depends what novels you read, as has been stated before. In some novels they are portrayed as brain dead brutes who can be killed with a little application of brain power.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Can you name a single novel where Astartes are portrayed as such?

Even in Xenos oriented books Astartes are still portrayed as lethal opponents. In _Path of the Warrior_ for example, which follows a Striking Scorpion Aspect Warrior, said Striking Scorpion whilst holding Guardsmen in contempt is very wary of the Space Marines. It is Astartes intervention that forces the Eldar to fall back, _on their own craftworld_ (incidentally a dreadnought kills Karandras)

Astartes are the ultimate shock troop. They function best up close, in the enemy's face. At that range they're almost impervious to small arms fire (and a lot of heavy weapons) thanks to power armour and the enemy's tank guns, artillery and such won't risk firing for risk of hitting their own men. Your comrades are exploding around you thanks to bolter rounds or being dismembered by 8 feet killing machines who have dropped out of the sky, coming out of no-where, ignore pain and have to be outright killed to be rendered combat ineffective. The morale impact alone of an Astartes combat drop would be tremendous.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> Can you name a single novel where Astartes are portrayed as such?


Tales from the Dark Millennium the forces of the Space Marines do cop a bit of a whuppin'


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## bastex (Feb 13, 2011)

you can see the astrates as a pocket knife they can do alot but exell at nothing (exept cheer stubbernes to die) so far as i can see they are the best troops as long the enemy doent know where they are lacking 

Recon/Assassination/Infiltration: scouts / rangers / marbo

Infantry: greyhunters 

Shock Troops: terminators


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I would say that the Astartes are probably the single most efficient basic assault troops in the galaxy, if you could really call a space marine basic. Anything that can reliably take down a marine will more than likely be a specialist or something vastly larger then the marine.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Which brings up a good point aren't marines a kind of specialists? Their numbers and tactics seems to put them in the specialist or elite role in the vast majority of their conflicts. In fact t it is very rare to see a army primarily comprised of marines. We often see them being deployed as shock troopers/Infiltrators ect as a part of a larger force of imperial guard or in anticipation of the arrival of such a force.


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