# Wayland Games responds to GW's new trade terms



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Hello, 
I just thought I'd share the e-mail I just got to those who aren't customers or otherwise use Wayland. I thought it was newsworthy and shows that much like the public, Wayland doesn't simply see these new terms as a run of the mill change in direction from GW - and sees the need to make a statement.

It is level headed, well thought out and to the point. I would of course love to see their letter to GW, but I know Wayland is founded on sound business principles and whatever they choose to say it will have the commercial logic on their side.



> Hello Wargames fans!
> 
> 
> We'd just like to start with our official response to the news regarding Games Workshop's change in trading terms announced at the start of last week
> ...


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Seriously I never get to break any cool news first....darn. Aren't you all supposed to be raptured by now anyway...or dead from zombies, earth quakes, and volcano's???

Doc


----------



## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

I got this email as well. Hopefully they can sort something out for the folks overseas.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

It's somewhat obvious that GW cannot support their Australian (or wherever) stores and independant retailers with the current pricing applied in those countries AND at the same time allow a discount EU retailer to take advantage of the pricing difference.

GW can either:

1: Do what they have done and (as well as they can) stop international sales by EU sellers.

2: Harmonise pricing. There are many problems with this, but, I agree, the current pricing for some countries appears to be too far off the mark.

3: Give up on the non-EU countries and USA and just not support the hobby there. Allow independant sellers to control those markets. Hardly good for growth or long term business.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

increaso said:


> It's somewhat obvious that GW cannot support their Australian (or wherever) stores and independant retailers with the current pricing applied in those countries AND at the same time allow a discount EU retailer to take advantage of the pricing difference.
> 
> GW can either:
> 
> ...




I think they have made their decision. The only way this is going to change if it results in a loss in profit. I guess we will have to wait and see how this effects their 3rd and 4th quarter profits. I think the immediate loss is going to be to some of the online independents that have a majority of their sales wraped up supporting these markets.


Doc


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, that's yet another reason why Wayland has my business. I sincerely hope they'll be able to get GW to change that decision, even if I know GW to be... strange.

Phil


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

increaso said:


> 3: Give up on the non-EU countries and USA and just not support the hobby there. Allow independant sellers to control those markets. Hardly good for growth or long term business.


Why would it be bad for buisness? I know GW stores are like 1/20th of the buisness sales. As stated by everyone FLGS sell cheaper, less hostile, and are located EVERYWHERE. My FLGS just held a Semi Finals WFB Ard Boys yesterday. What the fuck do I or anyone need a GW Store for?If anything its sucking up money, those rental spots are far from cheap.

Also why is Wayland games (and others) the only ones who see GW shooting themselves in the foot? Sure your making more money with each box set, but less people are buyng them.


----------



## Lucius_the_Eternal (May 20, 2011)

I shall chellenge Marke Wells to duel and thee naked. For I am Lucius


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Are they ignoring the fact that them selling world wide is hindering Games Workshop shops in those regions as they are taking business away from them and thus making it increasingly difficult for them to finance those stores to keep them open?


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Are they ignoring the fact that them selling world wide is hindering Games Workshop shops in those regions as they are taking business away from them and thus making it increasingly difficult for them to finance those stores to keep them open?


Yes we are ignoring that, the indie traders are being told that they cant manage there own business how they want to manage it, which is anti competitive, GW is in effect saying we can sell here but you cant and as we supply you if you dont play ball we will stop supplying you, which is very wrong and i think its possible for them to be taken to task over it but i think that would require the online sellers showing a united front.

I can understand GW's stand on the problem, cheap minis from the UK are an issue in those territories with high costs of living, but i dont think trying to tie the hands of the UK indies is the right way to go, making the indies and stores in those territories competitive would be better, unfortunately importing toys to the other side of the world means that they are always gonna be more expensive at the other end if they are produced in the UK.

They could kill off the indies in the UK but that would kill GW as they would loose so much revenue over night they would fold,not to mention getting dragged through the courts by monopolies and mergers or what ever its called these days. 

They should be doing more to encourage people down under and non EU/US countries to buy from there own stores with offers and loyalty schemes and price as its clear that is a major factor and what ever they are doing or not isnt working at the moment, and they should also accept that some portion of there customer base is and always will be looking for the best possible deal regardless of where they live and the sooner they embrace that the more potential revenue they could pull in.


----------



## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Are they ignoring the fact that them selling world wide is hindering Games Workshop shops in those regions as they are taking business away from them and thus making it increasingly difficult for them to finance those stores to keep them open?


Don't buy into that sob story. If people are not going into GW stores, what does that tell you about GW stores??
Places like Wayland and other indie stores are bastions for gamers - they garner a real atmosphere, have character and superb customer service. If GW want me to go to their stores - take a leaf out of indie retailers books and make it a place I want to go into and spend my cash - and how about a sale or discount every now and then, or a freaking loyalty points card, anything to show they view you more than a walking wallet?
Essentially GW are incapable or unable to compete on the high street against a decent indie retailer as they have long since lost touch with what the gamer wants. The sooner they piss off from the high street, the better the hobby overall will be, and more quality indie's will take over the space left behind.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Why would it be bad for buisness? I know GW stores are like 1/20th of the buisness sales. As stated by everyone FLGS sell cheaper, less hostile, and are located EVERYWHERE. My FLGS just held a Semi Finals WFB Ard Boys yesterday. What the fuck do I or anyone need a GW Store for?If anything its sucking up money, those rental spots are far from cheap.
> 
> Also why is Wayland games (and others) the only ones who see GW shooting themselves in the foot? Sure your making more money with each box set, but less people are buyng them.


This is also a reply to the post directly above.

FLGS promote the growth of the hobby and presumably buy at discount directly from GW.

Online businesses that sell to other jurisdictions do not support the growth of the hobby in the same way and they kill the FLGS.

That being said I would probably by from Wayland (or the like) because they are cheaper. [Talk about two-faced].


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

increaso said:


> This is also a reply to the post directly above.
> 
> FLGS promote the growth of the hobby and presumably buy at discount directly from GW.
> 
> ...


As has been suggested by myself and others...GW should seriously look at what WOTC did in 2000-2001. They closed all off there retail stores saving tons in overhead(at least in the US they tend to buy expensive retail store space) and just supply to local game stores.. This would support the local games store and then more small scale stores would open to fill any vacuums. I know that this isn't possible in Britian because the lack of many non-GW game stores but other countries do have the infrastructure. Additionally they could keep a few key locations such as battle bunkers from which to run large tournys.

Doc


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> As has been suggested by myself and others...GW should seriously look at what WOTC did in 2000-2001. They closed all off there retail stores saving tons in overhead(at least in the US they tend to buy expensive retail store space) and just supply to local game stores.. This would support the local games store and then more small scale stores would open to fill any vacuums. I know that this isn't possible in Britian because the lack of many non-GW game stores but other countries do have the infrastructure. Additionally they could keep a few key locations such as battle bunkers from which to run large tournys.
> 
> Doc


Dont they already do this in other territories?

If you look at the back of the UK white dwarf you can see the other territories stores (not the US, you have your own white dwarf) and in almost all areas other than the uk there are 50 independants for every GW store (hell in the UK there are still 10 independants for every store, give or take)


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

slaaneshy said:


> Don't buy into that sob story. If people are not going into GW stores, what does that tell you about GW stores??
> Places like Wayland and other indie stores are bastions for gamers - they garner a real atmosphere, have character and superb customer service. If GW want me to go to their stores - take a leaf out of indie retailers books and make it a place I want to go into and spend my cash - and how about a sale or discount every now and then, or a freaking loyalty points card, anything to show they view you more than a walking wallet?
> Essentially GW are incapable or unable to compete on the high street against a decent indie retailer as they have long since lost touch with what the gamer wants. The sooner they piss off from the high street, the better the hobby overall will be, and more quality indie's will take over the space left behind.


I think by you're reply you've proved my point.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> Don't buy into that sob story. If people are not going into GW stores, what does that tell you about GW stores??
> Places like Wayland and other indie stores are bastions for gamers - they garner a real atmosphere, have character and superb customer service. If GW want me to go to their stores - take a leaf out of indie retailers books and make it a place I want to go into and spend my cash - and how about a sale or discount every now and then, or a freaking loyalty points card, anything to show they view you more than a walking wallet?
> Essentially GW are incapable or unable to compete on the high street against a decent indie retailer as they have long since lost touch with what the gamer wants. The sooner they piss off from the high street, the better the hobby overall will be, and more quality indie's will take over the space left behind.


I just dont get it...

Other shops dont have sales or loyalty schemes and the staff in them are a hell of a lot less knowlegdable about the product (Ever spoken to someone in a PC world - dear god, one of them didnt even know the difference between a PC an a Mac...)

I regularly buy stuff from WHsmiths, currys. comet, marks and spencers - none of them have a loyalty scheme, none of them have staff that even know what half their products are, let alone be able to help you if you needed it and none of them have sales of anything that anyone would actually want to buy.

I just dont understand why people think GW SHOULD do any of those things - sure they can, I just dont understand why people assume that they need/should do.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Dont they already do this in other territories?
> 
> If you look at the back of the UK white dwarf you can see the other territories stores (not the US, you have your own white dwarf) and in almost all areas other than the uk there are 50 independants for every GW store (hell in the UK there are still 10 independants for every store, give or take)


So why the fuck do they need their OWN store? How many people really go there when they can get what they want in a happier atmoshere at a FLGS? The whole GW store is a huge waste of money and killing the lower prices.



Maidel said:


> I just dont get it...
> 
> Other shops dont have sales or loyalty schemes and the staff in them are a hell of a lot less knowlegdable about the product (Ever spoken to someone in a PC world - dear god, one of them didnt even know the difference between a PC an a Mac...)
> 
> ...


Maybe thats becuase if I go to a Sprint Wireless store they know all the end and out of their Product and network. If I go to a Game Stop they know whats games are coming out and the reviews. GW dont know SHIT about their own product... and there is a hell lot less to their 3 Game Systems than any Video Game Store. Explain that... please.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> So why the fuck do they need their OWN store? How many people really go there when they can get what they want in a happier atmoshere at a FLGS? The whole GW store is a huge waste of money and killing the lower prices.


because not everywhere has decent FLGS - many FLGS listed in white dwarf only carry a small proportion of the model range.

Many people in fact were brough into the hobby through the stores. They played an intro game there, they come back and play there etc.

Sure GW stores arent good for vets - but GW is extremly good for kids - and without kids please dont think the hobby will survive, because it simply wont.



> Maybe thats becuase if I go to a Sprint Wireless store they know all the end and out of their Product and network. If I go to a Game Stop they know whats games are coming out and the reviews. GW dont know SHIT about their own product... and there is a hell lot less to their 3 Game Systems than any Video Game Store. Explain that... please.


Wow - you found 1 store that actually knows something about its products - the other 99% of stores dont know their arse from their elbow.

As for the GW staff not knowing about their hobby - frankly I dont believe it. Any store I go into (and ive regularly been into croydon, kingston, preston, plaza, bromley and beckenham and richmond before they closed) - and all the staff in there are very knowlegable - Sure, they are annoying as anything with their scripted questions - but its a hell of a lot better than going into a store and being ignored and having to LOOK for a sales assistant.

I think you just have a crap GW store near you, or you are biased, or you expect them to know the full name and title of calgar and his entire backstory word for word.


----------



## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Maidel said:


> If you look at the back of the UK white dwarf you can see the other territories stores (not the US, you have your own white dwarf) and in almost all areas other than the uk there are 50 independants for every GW store (hell in the UK there are still 10 independants for every store, give or take)


Speaking for my own country: about 90% of those independant retailers are model shops who stock a very small number of GW stuff, mostly horribly outdated or even models that were replaced by new stuff. None of them can really be considered top locations to get your new models. You can go there to order new models... but why the hell would you want to do that as a customer, when you can just order it online and have it delivered to your doorstep for a cheaper price. 

Most of the more reliable independant hobby shops (as in, up to date with their releases) have now been muscled out by GW stores that opened recently. I personally know a guy who ran one of those shops, and he told me that the GW profit margins are one of the smallest you can get as a retailer. But it's also the best selling mini manufacturer out there by a wide margin, so that evens out. He used to get a lot of support from GW directly when he was promoting their products. Stuff like free terrain and battlemats to start a local club, miniatures for painting demo's, etc were all provided by GW!

That is untill they open one of their own shops nearby. All support stopped, deliveries started to become incomplete or late (wich hurts particularly bad on new releases) and all that sort of stuff. So yeah... they'll support the LFGS untill they mark a country/region to "harvest" and place their own stores. Then it becomes a matter of muscleing out the competition. 

So no... don't think for a single second that GW actually cares to support independant stockists out here when they have set their eyes ona region. Only if it's the only way to sell their products in the area, but they'll be consumed once the hive mind arrives.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

elmir said:


> So no... don't think for a single second that GW actually cares to support independant stockists out here when they have set their eyes ona region. Only if it's the only way to sell their products in the area, but they'll be consumed once the hive mind arrives.


And I dont for a single second disagree with you on that one.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't know about you lot but I grew up going to Games Workshops on the Saturdays/Sundays before moving on to games night on Tuesday and then on Veterans night on Thursday. I prefer to go to a Games workshop store than other places. 

I think they should protect their company, why give up their own rights to satisfy another company that is feeding off what games workshop is doing. They are meant to be competitive, and when it comes down to it, do they simply get smaller or do they instead use their own legal abilities to control how their product is distributed so it favours them? The latter is right to me.


----------



## cox61171 (Jan 10, 2007)

Whilst I don't disagree with a lot of what has been said on here (i also started off in a GW store playing intro games) after running a local gaming group for 4 years, for all ages from 8 to 70, the one thing that nearly all people want is for the hobby to be cheaper, hence for me, and a lot of people, independents like Wayland are a godsend. 

As for all GW stores being great places to go, that isn't always true and I can give 2 differing examples of this. I live between Portsmouth and Southampton and I'll tell you I won't ever go to Portsmouth store again, they used to be brilliant (about 8 years ago) but the last time I went in, there were 2 members of staff, chatting with there mates who totally ignored me, I went round the whole of the shop and walked out without once either of them asking me what I wanted or anything. Totally the opposite with Southampton, at first it was the usual in your face, but after I had established that I had an idea about what GW was about then all was good.

The thing is the future of this hobby is kids but if parents can't buy stuff because GW is pricing them out of this, and I can and will recommend an independent to keep someone in the hobby, then I will gladly do so. I find that GW is great at getting you started but a gaming club is a better way to meet with people to learn.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> because not everywhere has decent FLGS - many FLGS listed in white dwarf only carry a small proportion of the model range.


I agree with you 100% here but I will have to say that atleast in the States, my experience has been that GW stores are to small to really play in. Plus, the high pressured sales pitching. I understand that it is different for other people. Here in the States the local game store is that place we meet up on every Saturday to play.


Doc


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@ maidel and elmir - That sounds pretty accurate. When I worked at a USA flgs, our profit on GW materials was always really low. It sold consistently, but Every unit cost us a lot of money, and we didn't make much from it. I think about 10 years ago the wholesale discount was 30-35% below RRP. I'd wager heavily that GW has cut that down below 30% since then.

edit - DocGeo has it on the head. Part of it is certainly the GW USA business culture (I can't speak for anyone in the UK or elsewhere). A friend of mine who loved GW games and had played at my local shop since 2nd ed, eventually worked for them in Texas after college and described it as halfway between the military and a cult. They pay was bad, the hours long, the staff tiny, the corporate support minimal, and the pressure immense.


----------



## Lucius_the_Eternal (May 20, 2011)

There is no room for one of my stature in a GW shop. Then again there is no shop that can hold the might of me. FOR I AM LUCIUS


----------



## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> before moving on to games night on Tuesday and then on Veterans night on Thursday. I prefer to go to a Games workshop store than other places.


So did I until they started letting people play 2k points on 2 boards meaning you didn't get a game.

Really do feel for people in other areas of the world with these new rules.


----------



## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

Thank you Wayland for at least trying to sort this out. You will be seeing my business in the future.


----------



## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't know about you lot but I grew up going to Games Workshops on the Saturdays/Sundays before moving on to games night on Tuesday and then on Veterans night on Thursday. I prefer to go to a Games workshop store than other places.
> 
> I think they should protect their company, why give up their own rights to satisfy another company that is feeding off what games workshop is doing. They are meant to be competitive, and when it comes down to it, do they simply get smaller or do they instead use their own legal abilities to control how their product is distributed so it favours them? The latter is right to me.


There are a couple of points I'd make about the 2nd part here...

1 - Wayland aren't "feeding off" what GW are doing - GW still makes money when Wayland sell their stuff. Where d'you think Wayland gets their stock from? If GW are being truthful about how much overhead there is running their store network or supplying FLGSs to "support the hobby", then they probably make just as much profit selling stuff to Wayland to sell on vs. selling through their own stores (in case it's not obvious - I don't think they are being entirely truthful, and think GW's mark up in their own stores is excessive).

2 - Whether or not the "legal abilities" they're using are in fact legal is open to debate - they may actually be infringing on a few anti-monopoly/pro-competition rules. I guess we wouldn't know this for sure unless it was taken to court and a judge made a ruling.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> I agree with you 100% here but I will have to say that atleast in the States, my experience has been that GW stores are to small to really play in. Plus, the high pressured sales pitching. I understand that it is different for other people. Here in the States the local game store is that place we meet up on every Saturday to play.
> 
> 
> Doc


Well in the UK everything you said about the local store is what you can say about the GW store.

Accept they try and sell you something. Have you ever see a nerd/geek trying to pressure sell? Basically if you are any good at selling you could end up selling the models to THEM.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

EmbraCraig said:


> There are a couple of points I'd make about the 2nd part here...
> 
> 1 - Wayland aren't "feeding off" what GW are doing - GW still makes money when Wayland sell their stuff. Where d'you think Wayland gets their stock from? If GW are being truthful about how much overhead there is running their store network or supplying FLGSs to "support the hobby", then they probably make just as much profit selling stuff to Wayland to sell on vs. selling through their own stores (in case it's not obvious - I don't think they are being entirely truthful, and think GW's mark up in their own stores is excessive).
> 
> 2 - Whether or not the "legal abilities" they're using are in fact legal is open to debate - they may actually be infringing on a few anti-monopoly/pro-competition rules. I guess we wouldn't know this for sure unless it was taken to court and a judge made a ruling.


I'm not exactly 100% sure how it all works, but it's to do with the exchange rate that's become the increasingly big problem. They are buying from foreign stores with currencies that stronger than the pound, thus they are losing out on the money the same person would be spending in the stores with their normal currency. 

This is why they are losing money, it's not just the fact it's going to another company it's the fact the amount of money isn't being covered by what Wayland is paying GW to sell the items.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, no. The money isn't going to GW Australia where GW has their RRP set far higher than in other markets. Where the sale of a unit nets GW more than if it were in another market because of the relative strength of the AU dollar to relative unit prices. Those gamers purchasing a unit from a UK retailer get the benefit of a strong currency AND are buying it at a lower RRP.

Both values from GW's site today.
United Kingdom - Space marine tactical squad is 23.00 GBP
Australia - Space marine tactical squad is $62.00 AUD

From x-rates.com
Currently 1 AUD = .65 GBP
or in reverse 
1 GBP = 1.53 AUD

So . . . 1.53 x 23.00 = 35.19 (+ taxes and shipping) is still far cheaper than 62.00.

GW Set the prices for the Australian market before their dollar strengthened recently. Now that it has gone up, if I recall correctly 3x or more, GW makes more money off of items without changing their RRP. So Australian's were buying from the UK, for the simple math reason I have demonstrated above - more value for their dollar.

GW wants the higher price tag. Consumers don't.

Cheers,
Kreuger


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Kreuger said:


> Well, no. The money isn't going to GW Australia where GW has their RRP set far higher than in other markets. Where the sale of a unit nets GW more than if it were in another market because of the relative strength of the AU dollar to relative unit prices. Those gamers purchasing a unit from a UK retailer get the benefit of a strong currency AND are buying it at a lower RRP.
> 
> Both values from GW's site today.
> United Kingdom - Space marine tactical squad is 23.00 GBP
> ...


Then yes I'm right. This is why they are cracking down, because they are losing money.


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Then yes I'm right. This is why they are cracking down, because they are losing money.


Well, technically, it's because the currency market allows foreigner to save money on international order (which is the only upside of a higher local currency, because ultimately it's a bad thing for that country's exports). And GW wants to pocket those savings. So basically what was a win-won situation for GW and the customer would become a win-win situation for GW and... GW. Other types of company do this different pricing by country policy, but as of yet, I've almost never seen one manage to apply a real restriction on international sales. Only GW's quasi-monopolistic position might help them achieve that.

So they are not "losing" money, they are just not pocketing the customer's righful savings due to the currency market.

Phil


----------



## itsonlyme (Aug 22, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Are they ignoring the fact that them selling world wide is hindering Games Workshop shops in those regions as they are taking business away from them and thus making it increasingly difficult for them to finance those stores to keep them open?


GW price is what is hindering the sales of local shops in Aus, I personally found the whole comment from Mark Well's amusing while at the same time insulting. Essentially they are doing what they are accusing companies such as wayland of doing and taking advantage of changing exchange rates, in other words, pot, kettle, black.


----------



## Whamhammer (Jan 19, 2009)

Basically this exact same scenario happened in the skateboarding world in the early 90's one company had way too much power and abused it just like Gw are doing, well people turned on the big company because it turned into the "bad guy" and the smaller companies "good guys" eventually took it out. This is what is probably gonna happen, which sucks because all the money everyone has poured into Gw and their gaming systems will be a waste and forgotten about. I imagine it starting off like, okay i got the codex, make the army list go on wayland or maelstrom etc look at all the miniatures excluding GW cause they wont sell to us and just purchase away at all the smaller brands, buy packs of GW bases and your set with your new army which is considerably cheaper than the GW one.


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

GW is doing nothing more than shooting themselves in the food in the long term scheme of things. They don't like how their profits have been down x% YOY? Guess what? Keep screwing over the FLGS' and they'll keep going that way, no matter how much they jack up the prices.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I understand that as consumers, you want to get the cheapest prices, but you also need to consider that GW needs to make a profit, it needs to have shops open as it's the only form of advertising it really has. If people are simply ignoring the shops after getting involved by purchasing items from abroad at a cheaper price, then they are losing out two fold.

I'd love to pay for cheaper stuff but not at the sake of GW going out of business.


----------



## ShadowMatt (Sep 9, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I understand that as consumers, you want to get the cheapest prices, but you also need to consider that GW needs to make a profit, it needs to have shops open as it's the only form of advertising it really has. If people are simply ignoring the shops after getting involved by purchasing items from abroad at a cheaper price, then they are losing out two fold.
> 
> I'd love to pay for cheaper stuff but not at the sake of GW going out of business.


If GW think it is reasonable to charge us Aussies $110 for an item that retails for $50 overseas, then F#CK THEM. I will go to Ebay instead.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

currently the conversation rate for Aussie Dollar to British Pound is 

1.00 AUD	=	0.655314 GBP

You should be paying less than what we are paying at the moment in your Australian Dollars.

If you're buying items abroad then you'll be getting them even cheaper. Not only is that not fair on GW Australia but also us over here.


----------



## Whamhammer (Jan 19, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> currently the conversation rate for Aussie Dollar to British Pound is
> 
> 1.00 AUD	=	0.655314 GBP
> 
> ...


What!!! So it's fair that even with a decent dollar Australasia gets ripped off ta boot. Everyone should be paying the same prices worldwide, give or take a little for shipping but come on what their shipping are little boxes with a bit of plastic nothing major.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Whamhammer said:


> What!!! So it's fair that even with a decent dollar Australasia gets ripped off ta boot. Everyone should be paying the same prices worldwide, give or take a little for shipping but come on what their shipping are little boxes with a bit of plastic nothing major.


No, what I'm saying is you should be paying equally to what we're paying which ends up being something like $23 for a £25 item or something. Which means you are paying exactly the same amount as us in the UK. 

The problem is that if Australians buy from foreign sellers like Wayland, they are bypassing GW and paying for something at the British rate with Australian dollars.

They are thus using the exchange rate against GW which is what GW is attempting to stop.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I do have a question about this and I hope it isn't to simplistic. If wayland buys from GW then doesn't GW make money and then not have to worry about exchange rates or shipping. So then if more people bbuy from companies like Wayland then there would be a proportional increase in said companies purchases from GW....right?


Doc

P.S. remember I am good at medicine bad at economics..lol


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Yes Doc, but GW thinks that they should have extra profit from people that have beneficial currency conversions in all other cases. By their logic, if it would be cheaper for someone to buy their product because of a currency conversion, even if GW still gets the same amount of money, they need to give GW extra money because. Just because.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> I do have a question about this and I hope it isn't to simplistic. If wayland buys from GW then doesn't GW make money and then not have to worry about exchange rates or shipping. So then if more people bbuy from companies like Wayland then there would be a proportional increase in said companies purchases from GW....right?
> ..lol


Yes, but their arguement is that if you buy from a UK retailer in austrailia then you benifit GW UK, not GW australia and you will have less tornaments and less money spent on developing the hobby in your own country. If you believe it or not, that is their position.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Yes Doc, but GW thinks that they should have extra profit from people that have beneficial currency conversions in all other cases. By their logic, if it would be cheaper for someone to buy their product because of a currency conversion, even if GW still gets the same amount of money, they need to give GW extra money because. Just because.


Its not 'just because'.

I know you think they shouldnt maintain their own stores, I think that position is moronic - but thats a separate debate - if you accept that they have their own stores to maintain then you also have to accept that in those countries they have to pay their staff more than they do in other countries. EG - the wage of a staff member in australia is a heck of a lot more than the wage of a staff member in the UK and thus the price of everything sold in australia needs to be more expensive to compensate. There is also a bit of currency conversion thrown in for good measure, and shipping and other associated costs.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Yes, but their arguement is that if you buy from a UK retailer in austrailia then you benifit GW UK, not GW australia and you will have less tornaments and less money spent on developing the hobby in your own country. If you believe it or not, that is their position.
> .



Should that be determined by the consumer...especially in a free market economy? I mean if Australians want to spend their money that way and for-go the GW stores isn't that their right as a consumer?

thanks,
Doc


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Should that be determined by the consumer...especially in a free market economy? I mean if Australians want to spend their money that way and for-go the GW stores isn't that their right as a consumer?
> 
> thanks,
> Doc


All other companies do it - why not GW?

I cant buy songs from the american itunes site because they are prohibited from me buying them, despite the fact they are half the price (99c vs 99p!)

I cant buy audiobooks from the american audible site despite the fact they are much cheaper.

I cant (legally) buy american games or dVds because they are region linked (although that appears to be changing slightly more recently).

I cant buy a car in poland and bring it to this country without paying the tax which makes it the same price as if bought in this country.

Want me to go on? We do these things every day, but when GW does it suddenly its against the consumers rights?


PS - IVe been looking up recipies for cats - its really hard because the only ones I can find are written in Korean.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Yes, but their arguement is that if you buy from a UK retailer in austrailia then you benifit GW UK, not GW australia and you will have less tornaments and less money spent on developing the hobby in your own country. If you believe it or not, that is their position.
> .


Its fallacy, heres why.

The cheapest way to build an IG army, or obtain a land raider, a rhino, etc after ther embargo, would be to buy from Forgeworld.

A Forgeworld 'complete kit' for any Landraider of rhino variant , or eldar flyer varient , is the plastic kit plus some resin, and they undercut GW Australia inthe exact same way as Wayland etc do.

They dont benefit GW Aus either, no sign of stopping those exports.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> I know you think they shouldnt maintain their own stores, I think that position is moronic


Yes, yes you do. It's become clear to me over the span of your post history that you fully support Games Workshop's desire to become the IKEA of miniatures. When IKEA broke through internationally, there was no internet. It was around those times GW were starting to dream large of their little hobby niche, and it seems that this corporate structure is what they desire.

However, Games Workshop's products are all a niche within a niche. IKEA did great because hell, everyone needs furniture. Games Workshop will fail miserably, because not only are their shops an excess to the needs of the majority of wargamers, but a fraction of people looking for a hobby would be interested in playing their games.

So your opinion though valid, is backwards and conservative and doesn't pay the due respect to earth anno 2011 where niche products like these belong nowhere else but internet shops and physical shops that stock all niche "nerd" hobbies under one roof.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Its fallacy, heres why.
> 
> The cheapest way to build an IG army, or obtain a land raider, a rhino, etc after ther embargo, would be to buy from Forgeworld.
> 
> ...


The way GW looks at this is that there is infact only 1 forgeworld, there isnt a GW australia version of forge world.

But yes it is a hole in their sales method and I really wouldnt be pointing it out to them because they will probably close it shortly...


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Yes, yes you do. It's become clear to me over the span of your post history that you fully support Games Workshop's desire to become the IKEA of miniatures. When IKEA broke through internationally, there was no internet. It was around those times GW were starting to dream large of their little hobby niche, and it seems that this corporate structure is what they desire.
> 
> However, Games Workshop's products are all a niche within a niche. IKEA did great because hell, everyone needs furniture. Games Workshop will fail miserably, because not only are their shops an excess to the needs of the majority of wargamers, but a fraction of people looking for a hobby would be interested in playing their games.
> 
> So your opinion though valid, is backwards and conservative and doesn't pay the due respect to earth anno 2011 where niche products like these belong nowhere else but internet shops and physical shops that stock all niche "nerd" hobbies under one roof.


While you are fully entitled to your opinion, you are I fear wrong.

I really have no clue what link you are making between Ikea and GW, the comparason doesnt make any sense to me, but perhaps I dont know enough about Ikea - Im not really a big fan on cheap chipboard furniture.

I also would like to correct you on one VERY important issue - I do NOT support GW in anyway - I merely seek to understand WHY they do things - when the logic behind a decision becomes clear, then I will either support or object to that decision. Everything they have done recently MAKES SENSE from their point of view. However many things they have done in the past have not made sense to me (killing specialist games for example.)

All I will say is that if GW stores did not exist in the UK then GW would not exist in the UK because they do the job that other counties independant stores do because in the UK there simply are not enough indpendant stores (mainly because GW put them all out of business I will admit).

Whether you agree with the way GW work, the GW store is their business model, we will never change that, therefore to say 'if they got rid of their stores they could do X Y Z' is falacious at best and down right unhelpful to any discussions because they simply wont do it and thus holds no relavence for any discussions on pricing and their business practices.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> The way GW looks at this is that there is infact only 1 forgeworld, there isnt a GW australia version of forge world.
> 
> But yes it is a hole in their sales method and I really wouldnt be pointing it out to them because they will probably close it shortly...


No, they wont.

Because the 'protecting GW Aus investment' excuse is a fallacy.

Its about using exchange rate variations to maximise profits, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, thats every business' prerogative, indeed, its responsibility, to maximise profits, but claiming some altruistic reasoning behind it is simply an insult to ones intelligence.

If they are going to make a move that upsets a section of their customers, at least have the good grace to take it on the chin, not claim its going to be better for them.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

nogginthenog said:


> No, they wont.
> 
> Because the 'protecting GW Aus investment' excuse is a fallacy.
> 
> ...


As pointed out though, Itunes does it as does a lot of other companies, why can't GW? Would you rather GW went out of business in Australia altogether?

The only reason some people are complaining here is because they don't bother with GW stores and thus don't care if they can't manage them, they only care they can get their own models for cheap, and that's simply wrong.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> As pointed out though, Itunes does it as does a lot of other companies, why can't GW? Would you rather GW went out of business in Australia altogether?
> 
> The only reason some people are complaining here is because they don't bother with GW stores and thus don't care if they can't manage them, they only care they can get their own models for cheap, and that's simply wrong.


 
What he said ^^


There isnt much else I can add - accept at least GW dont do what companies like apple do and simply change the $ to a £ for no reason other than 'they can'.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> As pointed out though, Itunes does it as does a lot of other companies, why can't GW? Would you rather GW went out of business in Australia altogether?
> 
> The only reason some people are complaining here is because they don't bother with GW stores and thus don't care if they can't manage them, they only care they can get their own models for cheap, and that's simply wrong.


Which part of 'its a business' responsibility to maximise profits' did you find difficult to understand?

I've not said they shouldnt do it.

I've said the supposed reason is fallacy.

Their problem isnt so much the action, but taking their customers for morons with the statement (not to mention the sheer unprofessional behaviour of the CEO calling customers of his own wholesale division 'freeloaders' , he'll be lucky if he doesnt face libel charges, if someone issued a public statement to my customers calling my business that, he'd be in court this week).

Sometimes, businesses have to make choices, and sometimes the result is upset customers. 
The worst thing you can then do is compound it by telling them its good for them, because its just adding fuel to the fire.

This, along with price rises implemented right at the same time as the introduction of the resin range, and the news blackout, has created a perfect storm of how to piss of your customers.

None of the decisions are horrendous on their own, no one likes price rises, and some are hugely inflated, but they are a fact of life, people would adjust, but all at teh same time? And the silly IQ insulting letters?

Its not a business nightmare, its a PR nightmare, and really, whoever thought all this at once was clever shouldnt be in a job today.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Its not a business nightmare, its a PR nightmare, and really, whoever thought all this at once was clever shouldnt be in a job today.


Now THAT I agree with.

The UK website was a right laugh.

'There will be a price rise on the 28th May'


That was the entire message, no details, nothing.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> All other companies do it - why not GW?
> 
> I cant buy songs from the american itunes site because they are prohibited from me buying them, despite the fact they are half the price (99c vs 99p!)
> 
> ...


Good answer..I am begining to see the point. If that is the way the world economics is run...not saying it is right...then they aren't doing anything that others aren't doing. 

P.S. Nah you wan't have to do it...lol...I hope not atleast.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Let me get this through: If you believe any part of Games Workshop's success has ANYTHING to do with anything OTHER than pure word of mouth, you are absolutely 100% wrong. Games Workshop don't advertise, they let their games advertise themselves. Games Workshop thrive in places that don't even have a store within a thousand miles. Players don't need stores to play. Players don't need stores to teach them how to paint or build.

Word of mouth is the pinnacle of Games Workshop, not their stores. Their stores are in excess of our needs. They don't realize that.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Let me get this through: If you believe any part of Games Workshop's success has ANYTHING to do with anything OTHER than pure word of mouth, you are absolutely 100% wrong. Games Workshop don't advertise, they let their games advertise themselves. Games Workshop thrive in places that don't even have a store within a thousand miles. Players don't need stores to play. Players don't need stores to teach them how to paint or build.
> 
> Word of mouth is the pinnacle of Games Workshop, not their stores. Their stores are in excess of our needs. They don't realize that.


:goodpost:

IMO I have said this before...at least in the US they could cut out 75% of the stores and do a WIzards of the coast like buisness model and likely be more profitable.


Doc


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Let me get this through: If you believe any part of Games Workshop's success has ANYTHING to do with anything OTHER than pure word of mouth, you are absolutely 100% wrong. Games Workshop don't advertise, they let their games advertise themselves. Games Workshop thrive in places that don't even have a store within a thousand miles. Players don't need stores to play. Players don't need stores to teach them how to paint or build.
> 
> Word of mouth is the pinnacle of Games Workshop, not their stores. Their stores are in excess of our needs. They don't realize that.


Oh Im sorry - an entire company full of people of at least moderate intelligence who have run a successful company for 30+ years know so little about business that a guy who posts on an internet forum could single handedly turn their entire business around in a single stroke.

Give me a break please.

GW dont advertise - but let me tell you what GW does do (in the uk at least, I cant speak for anywhere else).

GW staff will go to schools and libraries to play a game with kids there to try and bring them into the hobby.

GW stores offer places for young teenagers to go while mommy is off shopping to play games and be taught how to play.

GW stores ARE their advertising - they sit on high streets and people walk past them all the time.

Having a shop tells mums that 'its ok' its not some weird cult thing that my son is getting himself into because they wouldnt let people open shops for that.

Having a shop lets parents come in and talk to the staff to find out what little jonny wants for christmas/birthday.


Do you REALLY want me to go on? Shops provide a place for the smaller gamers (10-16) to be able to play the games 'safely' while mums off doing shopping. It lets people who arent allow onto the internet whenver they want (like we are) to buy things with their pocket money.

You cannot run a successful buisness that caters to young teenagers solely off the internet. Older people (16+) its the best way to go because we are all 'adults' who can make up their own minds and do things when they want to.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

It sounds like the GW culture In Britian is much stronge rthan in the USA. Here the stores are very small, high pressure sales, and not much gaming...except in the battle bunkers. This is all based solely offf my personal observations and experiences. I have been going to GW stores since the 1992 when I ubought my first models from the College Park, Maryland store on the day they first demo of Man O' War....God that was a long time ago...lol. Now I do love the Battle Bunker concept.

Doc


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

docgeo said:


> It sounds like the GW culture In Britian is much stronge rthan in the USA. Here the stores are very small, high pressure sales, and not much gaming...except in the battle bunkers. This is all based solely offf my personal observations and experiences. I have been going to GW stores since the 1992 when I ubought my first models from the College Park, Maryland store on the day they first demo of Man O' War....God that was a long time ago...lol. Now I do love the Battle Bunker concept.
> 
> Doc


I absolutely agree - the GW stores in the UK simply arent like that - they each have at least 4 gaming tables (its not much, but its normally enough).

They try to 'pressure sell' - but seriously, you get more pressure from a dripping tap than the nervous shop assistants.

I would like to make one thing VERY clear - if the UK had alternative hobby stores that werent almost entirely model railway shops with a teeni GW section in the corner, then GW would not need stores - however they put 99% of the independants out of business in the UK and therefore they NEED those shops.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, I'm speaking as a resident of a country of 5 million people that has 1 GW store. Pretty much all cities in Norway have a healthy Warhammer and WH40K environment. Sure, more stores everywhere might increase the ratio at which little kids find and get hooked in on the game, but not enough to justify the costs of running these stores, just look at Australia. Do you think most of the Aussies will now continue purchasing from GW? Haha. No... I predict the vast majority of GW's prior customers in Australia will move to the already strong Privateer Press games.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Well, I'm speaking as a resident of a country of 5 million people that has 1 GW store. Pretty much all cities in Norway have a healthy Warhammer and WH40K environment. Sure, more stores everywhere might increase the ratio at which little kids find and get hooked in on the game, but not enough to justify the costs of running these stores, just look at Australia. Do you think most of the Aussies will now continue purchasing from GW? Haha. No... I predict the vast majority of GW's prior customers in Australia will move to the already strong Privateer Press games.


Leaviing aside australia - we will wait and see, I susspect that most people bought from the australian stores anyway - the internet currently only makes up something like 25% of all sales (i mean ALL sales, all companies, all sectors) anyway.

As for norway - does it have a healthy ratio of independant stores that have gaming tables that sell GW products in high street locations?

If so - they already have what GW has in the UK and they only NEED 1 store. If you took away the stores in the UK not only would GW die, the entire wargaming hobby would die (for a while at least until some new indepenant stores took their place, but that would be years if not decades before that happened)


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

nogginthenog said:


> Which part of 'its a business' responsibility to maximise profits' did you find difficult to understand?
> 
> I've not said they shouldnt do it.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you're trying to point this out to me, I fully understand they are attempting to maximise their profits and doing this will help their cause as the issue is seriously hindering their company in Australia.

Now in general I probably wouldn't be still into Warhammer etc if I couldn't go down to the store and grab stuff when I wanted, yes I buy stuff off the internet but only stuff I can't get in store, or bits and pieces I want which I'd only be able to get if I spent a lot more money on a bigger box of stuff I mostly don't want.

GW is a community like thing in the UK, it used to be a lot better but they've already had to make stores smaller like my local one which went from a battle bunker to a little shop directly across the road, leaving the original store empty and unused, purely because they couldn't afford it any more since the owner was trying to pump them for money.

I'm assuming this is what GW want to do in Australia, but due to, what I can only describe as a black hole of money, they can't. They are not making a profit as the money is going to the UK company as well as money being lost in the conversion rate.

GW don't have to have independent sellers, if they wanted to make more money they could completely cut them off, it's GW's IP they can do what they want with it. People are complaining because these independent sellers are finally getting reined back and are now being forced to pay what everyone else int he UK has been having to pay for ages. They should attempt to maximise their profits for the future of their company, because if they do collapse then the Independent sellers won't be making any money at all. 

If Independent sellers have to take a knock to make sure GW continues, then thats ok because that is what a free market economy is, GW are just stamping their claim.

What's wrong with that? Seriously I'm a socialist and believe we should do what's right for the majority of the people, the problem here however is independent sellers ain't paying their dues to GW, maybe if they renegotiated how much they pay GW for the ability to sell to people further a field then fine but I'd rather GW keep their stores open, keeping providing new things and keeping the community together instead of some self made company going out bankrupt because they decided to undercut GW to the extent it was risking them going bankrupt instead..


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I'm really starting to thing this whole thing is a cultural debate. The way I see it, people from the ROW don't wan't GW Stores and don't go to GW store. GW Staff never, ever get out of a GW store here. The closest GW store is downtown, a 35 minutes drive (because of traffic crossing the bridge). It's a 20$ parking fee to get to a 400 sq. foot store with two 4x4 tables. There is no GW-organized tournement in my province. The closest one I can thing of might be in Toronto, a 7 hours drive. Here, in North-America, the "closest big city" is almost as far a crossing a whole EU country.

So, no, I don't want to subsidize GW store. They are completely useless to the hobby in my area. A when GW tell me that paying 30-35% more will help promote local stores, they lie, pure and simple. They won't do more stores here, the population is just not enough population.

The real thing is, after 25 years, my Canadian dollar is finally worth more than monopoly money, but GW doesn't want to to profit from that. Ok, they are a business and they want to maximize profit, fine. But do it in a different way than taking away the ONLY benefit Canadians get from their higher-worth dollar (the major dowside being that this high-worth currency is costing thousand of jobs because our exports are down).

And, don't tell me that it's ok because other companies do it. Instead of saying "It's ok for GW to do it because iTunes does it", you should be saying "Screw GW, because they are using those same corporate tactics as iTunes and screw iTunes".

Also, don't tell me I'm now paying the "fair price" for GW products. The cost of living in England is roughly 50% higher than here in Quebec. So If most goods are 50% higher there, I should pay roughly 33% less here for my GW products (Eg a 20.5 pounds (VAT incl.) GK box in England should be 13.67 pounds here, or about 23$. It's currently 45.42$(VAT-equivalent incl.))!!!!!.

So, all in all, yes, Maidel, you are right that it's a move to maximize profit and that it's a pretty common move from businesses. Yes, you are right that you in UK are getting screwed by lost of business in that same way. Here's where you're wrong: First it's NOT a move from GW to help promote the hobby in ANY way. Second, although it's a common business practice to have different regional pricing, most companies I deal with at the very least don't embargo international trade. Third, even if they did, it's a practice that takes away from the average citizen the ONLY benefit from a higher currency and it should be discouraged with all possible effort, be it GW or any other company.

Phil


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I still don't fully understand the argument from those in 'expensive' areas.

GW sell something at £100 RRP in the UK

A company like Wayland or Wargamer or a LFGS might be able to sell the stuff locally (i.e. in the UK) at a lower price.

All good so far.

GW sells the same product in another country at $200 (at the time that sum equates to £100). 

A local company might be able to sell the stuff locally at a lower price.

All good.

We then have a change in the economy and $200 now equates to £200 but you only get £100 of product locally.

You therefore go to Wayland or whoever that gives you £200 of product for $200 (more of less).

It's quite obvious that the local stores (whether run by GW or otherwise) are not going to get the business and since the game grows through the stores (not the internet) the long terms prospects in these areas is not good. I am not surprised that GW don't like this.

Okay; so the prices could be less, but when does the price of anything decent go with the exchange rate? Once a price for something is set in a local market it will stay steady and rarely go down. 

Unless you live in some era of hyper-inflation it is unlikely that what you receive in your pocket has adjusted with the exchange rate. In other words, whilst the price may appear to be (or simply is) unfair the price you pay hasn't altered by a crazy amount within your geographic area.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> I'm really starting to thing this whole thing is a cultural debate. The way I see it, people from the ROW don't wan't GW Stores and don't go to GW store. GW Staff never, ever get out of a GW store here. The closest GW store is downtown, a 35 minutes drive (because of traffic crossing the bridge). It's a 20$ parking fee to get to a 400 sq. foot store with two 4x4 tables. There is no GW-organized tournement in my province. The closest one I can thing of might be in Toronto, a 7 hours drive. Here, in North-America, the "closest big city" is almost as far a crossing a whole EU country.


I love cultural debates. My culture is best, screw the rest of you. :grin:

But seriously - I completely understand where you are comming from. The UK is one of the highest population densities on the planet (I think beaten by singapore, hong kong and luxemborg) and that means that no matter where you are (unless you are on a scotish island) you are no more than an hours drive from a major city with a GW store.



> So, no, I don't want to subsidize GW store. They are completely useless to the hobby in my area. A when GW tell me that paying 30-35% more will help promote local stores, they lie, pure and simple. They won't do more stores here, the population is just not enough population.


They might do more stores, however those stores wont help you out I grant (Assuming you live in a relativetly small place) but they might well help the hobby in general in your country. There are lots of things that dont benifit me that I pay for. I pay for the national health serivce, but I havent been to a hospital since I was 10. I pay for the local libraries, but I havent used one since I was 5. I pay for lots of things that dont benifit me personally, but do benifit society or some portion of the population.


> The real thing is, after 25 years, my Canadian dollar is finally worth more than monopoly money, but GW doesn't want to to profit from that. Ok, they are a business and they want to maximize profit, fine. But do it in a different way than taking away the ONLY benefit Canadians get from their higher-worth dollar (the major dowside being that this high-worth currency is costing thousand of jobs because our exports are down).


I cant disagree with you on this one.



> And, don't tell me that it's ok because other companies do it. Instead of saying "It's ok for GW to do it because iTunes does it", you should be saying "Screw GW, because they are using those same corporate tactics as iTunes and screw iTunes".


Quite right - it SHOULD be - however it simply isnt. EVERYONE does it (for everyone read 'larger corportations) why does GW get so much hate?


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Quite right - it SHOULD be - however it simply isnt. EVERYONE does it (for everyone read 'larger corportations) why does GW get so much hate?


Exactly, you can't say GW should stop acting like a community store and get rid of the shops only for you to then get angry at when they start acting like a major company and begin to counter their internet "competition" by limiting their own products being sold elsewhere.

Either you want them to be friendly and help your community by giving you stores or you want them to dominate the internet market and stick two fingers up at independent sellers because either way they have to make a profit, you can't have them bend over to internet sellers and bend over to communities at the same time, *they have to make a profit*.


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Exactly, you can't say GW should stop acting like a community store and get rid of the shops only for you to then get angry at when they start acting like a major company and begin to counter their internet "competition" by limiting their own products being sold elsewhere.
> 
> Either you want them to be friendly and help your community by giving you stores or you want them to dominate the internet market and stick two fingers up at independent sellers because either way they have to make a profit, you can't have them bend over to internet sellers and bend over to communities at the same time, *they have to make a profit*.


But I WANT GW to do a profit. GKs cost me 35% more than tac SM. I don't care, because they give me a high-quality price. I don't care if GW raises prices by 5-10% everywhere because they need to make a profit (well, I do care, but not as much). Where I DO care, is when I pay 35 %more for the same product because my CDN$ used to be worth 35% less even though it's now worth the same. They way I see it, if I pay more because I get more/better products, it's all ok (hence why I accept to pay more for FW products). But when I happen to pay more because GW just profits from the currency exchange, I've got a problem.

And I don't want GW to go around in the community and open stores. Because here in Quebec going somewhere is always a 20-25 minutes drive to and from. And also, my whole regular gaming group (6 persons) but also my extended gaming group (35 persons, 2 WH40k tourneys, 1 WFB tourney, one forum where I organize the whole hobby section with monthly challenges and a yearly draw of a 50$ prize that I pay from MY pocket!) don't want to play in shops. Every kid here has a basement. We've played D&D, M:tG and GW our our basements since ever. First, we can play our music. Second, we can have a few beers. Third, there's no pressure to buy. Fourth, we can used some non-GW models if we want. Fifth, there's no annoying "know-it-all" that hangs by your table telling what to do and how your army-list could be tailored like that BOLS list.



> Quite right - it SHOULD be - however it simply isnt. EVERYONE does it (for everyone read 'larger corportations) why does GW get so much hate?


GW gets the hate because it's a GW-oriented forum. Go to other forums and you'll find similar threads. If you think I've got some GW-related hate because an army might cost me 200-300$ more, you should read my letter to Panasonic because my home-thater projector was costing me 1000$ more (I finally managed to buy it from the US at the US price, but couldn't benefit from a US-only coupon. I still saved 800$). Corporations can and will do want they can to maximize profits and it's part of the system, so ok. But we, as customers, must not act like sheeps and accept everything they throw at us. Only if we fight back on issues we feel are not right will an equilibrium be reached.

Phil


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Phil 
I get the impression that companies profiteering from your currency is not soley a GW problem (panasonic you mention) so does that mean others are all doing this to Canadian consumers? If so could that mean that the reason for the high prices are related to your countries economy and that the high price is almost forced on the company by situations unique to canada?, sorry if you have already covered this but you have posted so much i may have missed it?


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

boreas said:


> Corporations can and will do want they can to maximize profits and it's part of the system, so ok. *But we, as customers, must not act like sheeps and accept everything they throw at us.*


Emphasis mine. This is what it's all about. You're either going to fight for equality in these matters, or you're going to bend over like a good little drone. I'm no drone. Those who say corporations can dick customers around for profit, because everyone gets away with it, don't realize that they only get away with it because the average consumer is an idiot.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Emphasis mine. This is what it's all about. You're either going to fight for equality in these matters, or you're going to bend over like a good little drone. I'm no drone. Those who say corporations can dick customers around for profit, because everyone gets away with it, don't realize that they only get away with it because the average consumer is an idiot.


so whats your plan?


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> GW gets the hate because it's a GW-oriented forum. Go to other forums and you'll find similar threads. If you think I've got some GW-related hate because an army might cost me 200-300$ more, you should read my letter to Panasonic because my home-thater projector was costing me 1000$ more (I finally managed to buy it from the US at the US price, but couldn't benefit from a US-only coupon. I still saved 800$). Corporations can and will do want they can to maximize profits and it's part of the system, so ok. But we, as customers, must not act like sheeps and accept everything they throw at us. Only if we fight back on issues we feel are not right will an equilibrium be reached.
> 
> Phil


Good for you! I have absolutely nothing against people getting a good price and getting their moneys worth from big companies, if anyone thinks I like paying high prices for things please remember this.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Emphasis mine. This is what it's all about. You're either going to fight for equality in these matters, or you're going to bend over like a good little drone. I'm no drone. Those who say corporations can dick customers around for profit, because everyone gets away with it, don't realize that they only get away with it because the average consumer is an idiot.


I would like to point out that I have utter respect for anyone who wants to fight for consumers rights. Good for you, hope it works out for you.

My point has always and will always be that if all companies do it, you are fighting an uphill battle and fighting a medium sized luxury company (as GW is) will get you absolutely no where. They wont care about your business, you are a drop in the ocean, no consumer rights group will give you the time of day because they are far too busy with huge companies that supply things that people NEED (eg energy companies and such like) and all that ends up happening is you alienate yourself from something you like doing to 'make a stand' which gets absolutely no where.

Companies have, do, and will always 'd*ck customers around for profit' however what GW is doing is a million miles from that. They are a smallish company that was making fairly considerable losses before the recession hit that are now, after some fairly dramtic cuts, starting to make profits again. Im sorry if the prices rises hit you, im sorry if they mean you cant buy as much as you used to, but thats the reality of it.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@Words-of_truth

I wrote a breakdown of the situation which might be useful here, in another thread. 
HERE.

GW have painted themselves into a proverbial corner. They make normal wholesale price profits from the online retailers. However, since GW stores sell at RRP GW makes even more profit there. The ultimate problem is that GW's wholesale is essentially competing with GW's retail. I don't know how their profits break down across independents and GW locations. My guess is that GW makes more wholesale.

Yes, GW's goal is profit, and they should pursue that. 
As consumers our goal is savings and we should pursue that as well!

It boils down to, AU/NZ customers are being price-gouged, badly. Their dollar is still worth less than the GBP but they pay faaar more for the same products then customers in other markets (as I demonstrated earlier in this thread). And as customers they would be foolish to pay the AU RRP. 

AU customers pay almost twice as much in adjusted currency for the same items, which suggests a systemic problem with GW AU, which is underscored by GW's contradictory business practices (i.e. self competition).

Cheers,
Kreuger


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> AU customers pay almost twice as much in adjusted currency for the same items, which suggests a systemic problem with GW AU, which is underscored by GW's contradictory business practices (i.e. self competition).
> 
> Cheers,
> Kreuger


You are missing out the really important part (this applies only to australia not new zealand) the average wage in australia after conversion to £ is DOUBLE that in the UK.

Therefore stores in australia will pay DOUBLE the costs of stores in the uk. The only constant is the UK manufacturing costs and those are more than likely equaled by the transportation costs to australia.

For a fixed business in australia (not internet based elsewhere in the world) twice the price of models is a FAIR price to pay considering they earn by proportion twice the wage in the UK.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Kreuger said:


> @Words-of_truth
> 
> I wrote a breakdown of the situation which might be useful here, in another thread.
> HERE.
> ...


you havent mentioned why the folks down under pay more, its far more than currency, the cost of living is higher by a long way as are business costs and everything has to be shipped and imported to the other side of the world from the UK, currency is only part of the story. Online sellers buy in the uk at wholesale and ship air mail small parcels and have no overseas overheads.


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> Phil
> I get the impression that companies profiteering from your currency is not soley a GW problem (panasonic you mention) so does that mean others are all doing this to Canadian consumers? If so could that mean that the reason for the high prices are related to your countries economy and that the high price is almost forced on the company by situations unique to canada?, sorry if you have already covered this but you have posted so much i may have missed it?


It's been a generalized trend. Our dollar went from 0.7US$ to 1US$ pretty quickly in 2008 (IIRC) and companies (as well as customers) didn't have to time to adjust. Now, and I can understand why, companies want to keep that extra profit margin. Unfortunately, customers are not very economically-savvy and don't understand the implication of currency variation. Most people here think our high-canadian dollar is a great thing like it's some pissing contest with the Americans. It's actually pretty nasty for our economy, as now our good a relatively more expensive abroad, so we export less and we lose jobs. The only upside is that, then, we can buy goods from abroad for cheaper. 

Now, unfortunately, we Canadians are not contestative (does that word exist?). Even more so here in french-speaking, catholic-minded Quebec. So we've let that buying power slip from us and now consumers are afraid to "look bad" if they try and get the best price for an item. Here, nobody ever bargains. We've only recently started having consumer-saving groups like Groupon.and we're the province of Canada we're there's the less internet shopping.

I'm a business owner myself (drugstore), and I believe business should do profit. But they should do so by offering more or better products. not by shenanigans like currency conversions.

Phil

ps, yes it's an uphill battle, but then so were a hundred other social causes!


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I didn't know everything in Australia costs twice as much as it does in the UK, knowing that only reinforces the problem between Aussies buying from the UK.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I didn't know everything in Australia costs twice as much as it does in the UK, knowing that only reinforces the problem between Aussies buying from the UK.


I wouldnt say 'EVERYTHING' costs twice as much - its probably not that simple - but their average wage is twice as much as in the UK, so most things are going to be somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3s more expensive than in this country, dependant on how much of the price is dictated by wages and how much is dicated by materials.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I wouldnt say 'EVERYTHING' costs twice as much - its probably not that simple - but their average wage is twice as much as in the UK, so most things are going to be somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3s more expensive than in this country, dependant on how much of the price is dictated by wages and how much is dicated by materials.


So not only are they losing out due to the conversion rate, but also due to the fact the Aussies are basically getting it half price to what they would normally being buying them for. Darn right they should stop independents selling to Australia, that's like the biggest undercut ever.


----------



## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The more I read, the more I understand that the UK vs Australia situation is much different than the UK vs Canada situation in terms of pricing (cost of living, wages, etc)...

Phil


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> So not only are they losing out due to the conversion rate, but also due to the fact the Aussies are basically getting it half price to what they would normally being buying them for. Darn right they should stop independents selling to Australia, that's like the biggest undercut ever.


And before everyone kicks off at you here are the numbers:

Average wage in australia: $64,641 http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html

Average wage in UK: £25,800 (harder to pin down its somewhere between 18,500 and 25,800) http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/best-paid-jobs

Conversion of Auz to UK: http://coinmill.com/AUD_GBP.html#AUD=$64,641

Australian average salary in the UK = £42,337.80


So its not quite double, as the UK average salary appears to have gone up a little bit since I found the figures but it is 1.65x the uk average salary.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> The more I read, the more I understand that the UK vs Australia situation is much different than the UK vs Canada situation in terms of pricing (cost of living, wages, etc)...
> 
> Phil


Very very very different - you guys are simply screwed over by your connection to the USA and exchange rate differences.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> And before everyone kicks off at you here are the numbers:
> 
> Average wage in australia: $64,641 http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html
> 
> ...


Thats such a simplistic view of economics is pretty insulting to peoples intelligence that you want anyone to take you seriously.

Try looking at disposable income figures to get a real view, as that takes into account cost of living within economies too.

You also need to take into account economic stability, historical and future currency strength and , particularly in Australia, the skewed ratio of earnings by the mining economy, that is really a micro economy operating within the Australian macro economy on a substantially different ruleset to the majority of Australian workers.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Thats such a simplistic view of economics is pretty insulting to peoples intelligence that you want anyone to take you seriously.
> 
> Try looking at disposable income figures to get a real view, as that takes into account cost of living within economies too.
> 
> You also need to take into account economic stability, historical and future currency strength and , particularly in Australia, the skewed ratio of earnings by the mining economy, that is really a micro economy operating within the Australian macro economy on a substantially different ruleset to the majority of Australian workers.


 
Where is the facepalm smily when you need it....

I have never said and WILL never say that the australians have twice as much money to waste on luxury goods - that is not my intent AT ALL.

What I am trying to point out is WHY it is so much more expensive in australia. If average wages are 1.65x more than in the uk then the shop assistant will want 1.65x more, the truck driver will want 1.65x the electicity company will want 1.65x more because their staff all want 1.65x more etc etc.

This is very simplistic, but it is also a fact.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Where is the facepalm smily when you need it....
> 
> I have never said and WILL never say that the australians have twice as much money to waste on luxury goods - that is not my intent AT ALL.
> 
> ...


It isnt a fact, its simply incorrect, and an understanding of historical GW pricing would show you that.

prices over there were increased repeatedly during the period of strong £/weak Aus$, which is perfectly fair, as that direction reduces profits directly for GW importing their goods from the UK.

The disparity has come now because the £ has weakened considerably and the Aus$ has strengthened.

Now, this makes UK companies able to do one of two things, decrease prices of exports to maintain profit margins, or leave export prices stagnant which has the effect of increasing profits.

I've seen at least two people in this thread try to argue that the current echange rates work against GW, which is in fact totally wrong.

Every penny the pound falls against the Aus $ is more profit to them if they keep the prices stagnant, and an effective price rise for Australian consumers compared to what they could get over the internet.

The price disparity now is because they are charging prices from a time when the £ was strong, when it is now (relatively) weak.


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*Thanks everyone*

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for all the interesting posts.

We have had an enormous number of questions asked over the last week, and as I am sure most of you will understand we have to make sure our impending discussions should be kept private. 

We are not anti-GW in any way but feel strongly the new terms are a mistake.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> It isnt a fact, its simply incorrect, and an understanding of historical GW pricing would show you that.


GWs prices have absolutely nothing to do with it (for this example) please refute the logic of my statement above.

If the average salary is 1.65x higher than in the uk then EVERYTHING is likely to be between 1.5 and 2x more than in the UK.

It is the same logic as inflation. If you suddenly doubled the amount of money everyone has do you really think that prices would be the same?

Of course not, the hairdresser will say that hes not working for £10 a hair cut, its now £20 because his time is 'worth more'.

You maybe correct in that GW has been able to price itself differently in the past, but that does not mean that is the reason for the prices at current.


Consider this:

We have a product in the UK thats manufacturing cost is £10 and its 'point of sale' cost is an additional £20. The sale price in the UK is £40.

If you sent it over to australia the price of the product is still £10. However the 'point of sale' cost is no longer £20, because all of the parts of that are 1.65x higher than they were in the UK, so that part is now £33. On top of that you also have shipping to australia, lets say at a very concervative estimate that is £2. So now at the point of sale it costs £45, and they are going to want to make the same amount of profit as they did in the UK (25%). The price they will sell at is £56.25.

And that finally reaches a sale price of $85.90 in australia after conversion.

So whereas the product in the UK was £40 which converts roughly to $60, it is in fact $85 after all those additional factors are taken into account.

Is this simplified - yes. It it wrong - no.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

nogginthenog said:


> It isnt a fact, its simply incorrect, and an understanding of historical GW pricing would show you that.
> 
> prices over there were increased repeatedly during the period of strong £/weak Aus$, which is perfectly fair, as that direction reduces profits directly for GW importing their goods from the UK.
> 
> ...


Could you explain why Australians spending less in Australian stores and spending less money by purchasing items from foreign providers using less money is making GW money.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

On the back of Noggins point about salaries:

Just like in Australia there are a huge range of payscales in the UK that average out at £25800(ish). My experience is that this is no where near the norm. Most retail staff, office types and so on are far below that figure (I would say £10-18k is fairl average amongst my friends). Just like in Oz the average is scewed up by those much better off.

Accordingly too the possibly wrong website http://www.numbeo.com/common/ the 'distribution of living expense' pie chart puts Sport and Leisure expenditure at 7% in Australia and 6.5% in UK.

If there is any credibility to these figures and the average wage is the benchmark. Then surely 'on average' Australian's have 1.65% the leisure money that Brits do.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

increaso said:


> On the back of Noggins point about salaries:
> 
> Just like in Australia there are a huge range of payscales in the UK that average out at £25800(ish). My experience is that this is no where near the norm. Most retail staff, office types and so on are far below that figure (I would say £10-18k is fairl average amongst my friends). Just like in Oz the average is scewed up by those much better off.
> 
> ...


Yes you are quite correct the 'median' salary in the uk is £18,500 which means that is the most common specific salary in the UK (I assume its between £18,001 and £18,999).

However when looking at salaries so long as you are comparing the SAME sort of average it will produce the same results (I suppose unless you are comparing a third world country to a first world one as there will be lots of very rich people and lots of very poor people in the third world country).

If that website is correct then if in the UK the average salary is £25000 that means an average person can spend £1500 on 'leisure' activities. In the same way the australian can spend £3150 on leisure activies after conversion to £ sterling.

Thus having double the cost in australia is utterly vindicated.


----------



## itsonlyme (Aug 22, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'd love to pay for cheaper stuff but not at the sake of GW going out of business.


people such as yourself should make a company work for you money rather than just handing it over because of the name, they are a business (not a charity) and if they want your hard earned cash they should get this through selling a product at a competitive price. Its the same for any other company in the world, you don't see people going "well I don't want microsoft to go out of business, I had better buy the latest windows or Xbox". Its hardly as if they provide the tightest rules systems either, look at the state of the magic system in 8th ed, its pretty much lore of death, shadow, life, 6 dice big spell, repeat until you win. You can of course pay for cheaper stuff and still enjoy a game of warhammer, plenty of companies provide cheaper models at a far lower price point. Really the attitude "I don't want GW to go out of business" is why they have become fat and lazy.

I think its going to be interesting to see exactly what effect all these price changes have on GW profit, if with this move against non-EU countries and the price rises profits go down I think it will speak leaps and bounds about GW pricing structure across the world.



Maidel said:


> And before everyone kicks off at you here are the numbers:
> 
> Average wage in australia: $64,641 http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html
> 
> ...


I think you will find the average wage in the UK is more like 14k-16k, London and the high earners heavily distort the figures, as for the Australian wages how much higher is the cost of living? I actually thought it was considerable higher than the UK (not looking at London which is between 2-3 times more expensive than the rest of country).


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Could you explain why Australians spending less in Australian stores and spending less money by purchasing items from foreign providers using less money is making GW money.


Firstly, I never said that.

I said that the reason of price disparity- that is the price difference between Australia and the UK taking current exchange rates as the base for comparison- is simply because whilst the £ has devalued against the Aus$, the price has remained constant.

This is in effect a price rise , when compared to other markets worldwide, for those purchasing using $aus , and the reason why its so much cheaper for them to buy from Forgeworld than GW Australia.

To answer your question, GW makes money from the fact that Wayland or whoever, even Forgeworld, buy it from GW to sell to those people.

GW wholesale make a profit on every sale to Wayland, its not like they magic it from pixie dust, GW sell it to them.

Indeed, if one were to take the GW reports, 60% of its income come from independent stores.
Only 40% comes from its own retail, and they do not generate enough profit to run themselves.

Rather than the independents 'freeloading' , its their sales that subsidise the GW store network, and without the people Wells labels as 'riding off his back' there would be no GW at all.

Its all the more ironic that he uses such language, given GW itself started life as an independent games store selling Dungeons and Dragons et al.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

But do you agree Australians shouldn't be purchasing items abroad at UK prices, when the Australian dollar is so strong as well as their living costs being so expensive? That's a lot of money being lost.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But you agree Australians shouldn't be purchasing items abroad at UK prices, when the Australian dollar is so strong as well as their living costs being so expensive? That's a lot of money being lost.


I didnt say I agree with that either?

You seem to be making up my side of the conversation as you go here.

If GW are happy with the profit they get from wholesale (bearing in mind, in the 60%/40% ratio, because of the 60%+ markup in GW stores,actual sales are something like 75% independant/25% GW stores worldwide) then I can't see why its a problem.


Heres the thing all this talk of average wages and the rest misses.

The value of the £ means everywhere but the UK , British made products have got cheaper. 
A lot cheaper.

GW. by keeping the export price constant, is simply vastly increasing its profits on all products sold over there.

The price to Australian Indies appears to be approximately twice the cost it is to UK indies, for the same product.

There is no excuse but profiteering.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

itsonlyme said:


> I think you will find the average wage in the UK is more like 14k-16k, London and the high earners heavily distort the figures, as for the Australian wages how much higher is the cost of living? I actually thought it was considerable higher than the UK (not looking at London which is between 2-3 times more expensive than the rest of country).


Well minimum wage in the uk for a full time worker is £12K - so the average is no way going to be that low.

And, it doesnt matter whether london distorts it or not, so long as I am comparing the same average with the same average. IF I compared the 'non london' average with australia I would need to find the 'non melborne and sidney' average to compare it with, and thats not a figure thats immediately avaiable.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> There is no excuse but profiteering.


 
Or, you could actually expand your mind a little and think of it like this:

If GW want to maintain their own stores, with their own higher salaries in australia then if they sell the models to independant stores at UK cost price they will all simply under cut the australia GW stores that are forced to sell at higher prices due to higher wages.

Seriously people seem to think that GW is some horrible monster that eats babies they arent - they are a normal store with normal business values.


----------



## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But do you agree Australians shouldn't be purchasing items abroad at UK prices, when the Australian dollar is so strong as well as their living costs being so expensive? That's a lot of money being lost.


I don't get what your saying here. Are you saying when a country has a strong currency you should not buy something from another country with a weaker currency? So when I went abroad and a strong pound gave me 2 dollars to the pound a couple of years back when I visited the USA, I should of paid more for my beer as I have a stronger currency in my bank?
Or I should not of bought my flat in South Africa as the pound is so much stronger than the rand?

In a global economy, I don't see how this is a realistic expectation.

Anyway, here are some simple ideas for greater profits for anyone reading from GW.

1. Stop selling your own product. 
Very few manufactures do this - cola does not have cola shops, or playstation playstation shops etc. By focusing soley on the development and manufacturing of your product, you immediately cut the overheads you incur by running a vast chain of shops all over the world. 
Some believe this would be a mistake as people won't learn how to play the game etc without a shop on the high street. This is incorrect, plenty of people pick up and learn this system without a GW anywhere near them. After all, no other war game company has exclusive stores, and they do fine. 

2. Retain the shops, but expand your product range. 
A radical shift in direction would be for GW to use their high street presence to greater effect by offering a wider range of products - yes, stocking mantic, warmahordes etc. This would get more people into their shops, and the discount they could get from the suppliers would be huge as they could buy in massive quantities - making lots of money! 
Some would say you then detract from your own product, but actually you would make this up and more on selling other stuff and offering wider choice. After all a non GW fan who plays Flames of War would never set foot into a GW store - but start selling Flames of War - new customer, and you never know, he might start playing GW games when he sees them on the shelf (until he compares the prices of course!)

Anyway, just a couple of ideas off the top of my head.

Oh, and 3 - sack Matt Ward.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Or, you could actually expand your mind a little and think of it like this:
> 
> If GW want to maintain their own stores, with their own higher salaries in australia then if they sell the models to independant stores at UK cost price they will all simply under cut the australia GW stores that are forced to sell at higher prices due to higher wages.
> 
> Seriously people seem to think that GW is some horrible monster that eats babies they arent - they are a normal store with normal business values.


Again, you evade the point.

They are getting more money per item now, significantly more, than they were two years ago because of the weakening of £.

They are stopping imports simply so they can take advantage of that, to make more profit per unit.Now, if they could run the stores on the £ values two years ago, they are getting more in £ now.

This is why ordering from the UK became so practical.

Now, just stopping it effectively gave Aus buyers a 90% price hike, the answer , of course, was to give back some of that artificial price rise from the devalued £ by a price drop at teh same time as stopping the imports, they could still maintain the previous profit levels (which one assumes they were happy with) AND give something to the customers.

They couldnt give the full discount the likes of wayland could, but they could have given enough to soften the blow and prevented this huge PR disaster , thats for sure.

GW are not hard done to here, that letter is pretty much twaddle, apart from the bits that are libelous.

My overiding impression from the last week is that Mark Wells is perhaps the most unprofessional CEO I've ever seen in operation , and GW's legal team are either on holiday or inept.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

slaaneshy said:


> I don't get what your saying here. Are you saying when a country has a strong currency you should not buy something from another country with a weaker currency? So when I went abroad and a strong pound gave me 2 dollars to the pound a couple of years back when I visited the USA, I should of paid more for my beer as I have a stronger currency in my bank?
> Or I should not of bought my flat in South Africa as the pound is so much stronger than the rand?
> 
> In a global economy, I don't see how this is a realistic expectation.
> ...


What I'm trying to say is GW has it's own IP, it's allows independents to sell it's products at a wholesale price IN the UK in the understanding it'll sell to people from around the UK.

Instead the independents are selling abroad, which do to a lot of mathematics is putting it's company in Australia at danger. Thus GW are attempting to restrict the independent companies from doing this.

I think that is a fairly reasonable response.

@nogginthenog The problem is they ain't selling to aussies very well because the aussies are buying the items from the UK at a distinctly cheaper price, either they stop independents selling abroad, or they find a way to combat their own self made competition, what do you think is easiest?

There's so many conversations and points being made on this topic it's really difficult for me to figure out where each poster is coming from, heck I failed maths two times in a row, so the fact I'm trying to grasp such a topic is a bit of a triumph on my part lol


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

In the UK we have Amazon.

Everything it sells from TV's to books to games to beauty products are sold at a massive reduction on the proper RRP.

If the company died and we would have to go back to buying stuff at the proper price.

Granted some luxury purchases would no longer be made, but overall the British high street shops would be doing a lot better than they are and people will still buy these things at RRP (since RRP is based on the stuff selling).

I feel there is some comparison to be made.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@Words_of_truth
I believe the problem here, is really GW's level of competition with itself across multiple markets. As I understand it, one of the things that helped GW grow in the late 90's was the addition of more independent retailers to their distribution, and the growth of their wholesale dept (granted I have no documentation of this). They are fighting essentially between different arms of their company trying to maximize profits, but in a blatant and to consumers offensive way. (Whether it makes sense or not.) 

Frankly, there is no reason Aussies should be happy that their shopping is now being restricted. 

Do we have any Aussies here who can comment on your income and expenses?

And Maidel,


Maidel said:


> ...they are a normal store with normal business values.


This is a fairly bogus claim. I worked in a FLGS we had many visitors from GW's staff, I've been to GW stores, and have had friends work for GW USA at HQ and in retail locations. They most certainly don't have normal business values. I'd concede that GW Corp HQ might have normal strategic business values, but not the USA HQ or the USA stores.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Again, you evade the point.
> 
> They are getting more money per item now, significantly more, than they were two years ago because of the weakening of £.
> 
> ...


No, that why ordering from the UK became CHEAP.

And I am not evading the point, you are ignoring the economics of the situation.



> Now, just stopping it effectively gave Aus buyers a 90% price hike, the answer , of course, was to give back some of that artificial price rise from the devalued £ by a price drop at teh same time as stopping the imports, they could still maintain the previous profit levels (which one assumes they were happy with) AND give something to the customers.


Again, no they didnt. They gave the 'normal' australian buyer a 0-25% price increase the same as the rest of the world. They gave the byer who orders from UK internet sites about a 50% increase.



> GW are not hard done to here, that letter is pretty much twaddle, apart from the bits that are libelous.


Please, it would lighten my day up if you could find something LIBELOUS about their statement - that makes utterly no sense.



Kreuger said:


> And Maidel,
> 
> This is a fairly bogus claim. I worked in a FLGS we had many visitors from GW's staff, I've been to GW stores, and have had friends work for GW USA at HQ and in retail locations. They most certainly don't have normal business values. I'd concede that GW Corp HQ might have normal strategic business values, but not the USA HQ or the USA stores.


Its not a bogus claim because firstly, I was only ever talking about GW as a company as a whole, as apposed to individual stores and their business practices.

However, on the subject of stores, this and other threads have opened my eyes to the fact that GW stores in the US are obviously all full of g*ts, t*ssers and w*nkers. If you were the only one to say that then I would just right you off as someone with a grudge, but it is clear that from almost everyones perspective that the US GW stores are run on a TOTALLY different 'theme' than the UK GW stores with a totally different ethics set.

To think about GW in the UK imagine a fairly 'normal' sized shop (obviously hard because you most likely dont have the same idea of 'normal' as we do because I guess the average size shop is different over there). It has the models on the walls and generally 2-5 gaming tables in the middle.

The shop assistants are trained to greet you within 5 seconds of entering the store (almost always happens) and one will come over to you within a minute unless they are ridiculously busy or you immediately gravitate towards the till to buy something.

They will speak to you with 'open questions' (eg they wont ask you 'do you play' because that can be answered with a yes or no answer, they will ask you something like 'so what are you painting at the moment' if you are buying paint brushes, or 'I havent seen you in here on a games night, do you live in the area' - something like that).

When you are at the till they will always ask you 'do you need any glue' and if you are buying a white dwarf they will often ask 'do you get it each month and have you considered getting a subscription'.

Its all extremely friendly and none of them try to 'pressure sell' any more than what I have said above.


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Again, no they didnt. They gave the 'normal' australian buyer a 0-25% price increase the same as the rest of the world. They gave the byer who orders from UK internet sites about a 50% increase.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, it would lighten my day up if you could find something LIBELOUS about their statement - that makes utterly no sense.


Actually those buying from the UK got about 90% price increase.

It was literally half price at UK rates.

Its still, of course, even with 12% postage and the additional cost of resin, about 30% cheaper to buy a forgeworld landraider variant complete kit (including the full plastic landraider) than it is to buy a plandraider kit from a gw shop in australia.

The problem here of course, is the markets dont operate in a vacuum, its all well and good saying 'dont buy from the uk' , but the price differential is still there for all to see.
You cant put the genie back in the bottle.

As to whats libellous

Claiming a customer of his own wholesale department is freeloading on the industry is, especially given his whole letter was aimed at customers of those independent hobby shops.

I run a business. If anyone made a public comment about my business to my customers in the same fashion I would take legal action.

Not for a payout, but because action is the only way to defend the companies reputation.

Its highly unprofessional for him to say it, even ignoring the legality, as said, these are his own customers he is referring to, people who, as it happens and can be seen by his own comp[any reports, contribute 60% of his companies earnings, far, far more than GWs retail arm.

Of course, he says it knowing that with close to 80% market share of the industry, no independent can really afford to get into a legal battle with them and lose the ability to supply those goods.

That, however, doesnt negate that what he said was, in fact, libellous.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Actually those buying from the UK got about 90% price increase.
> 
> It was literally half price at UK rates.
> 
> Its still, of course, even with 12% postage and the additional cost of resin, about 30% cheaper to buy a forgeworld landraider variant complete kit (including the full plastic landraider) than it is to buy a plandraider kit from a gw shop in australia.


Meh, same thing, different way of saying it - it used to be 50% less, which is a 100% increase - meh.



> The problem here of course, is the markets dont operate in a vacuum, its all well and good saying 'dont buy from the uk' , but the price differential is still there for all to see.
> You cant put the genie back in the bottle.


Ah, now that I agree with. But I will point you to a previous statement I made, which is that for most people who buy GW models, they wont have been buying over the net from the UK.



> As to whats libellous
> 
> Claiming a customer of his own wholesale department is freeloading on the industry is, especially given his whole letter was aimed at customers of those independent hobby shops.
> Its highly unprofessional for him to say it, even ignoring the legality, as said, these are his own customers he is referring to, people who, as it happens and can be seen by his own comp[any reports, contribute 60% of his companies earnings, far, far more than GWs retail arm.
> ...


For it to be libellous you would have to PROVE his statement wasnt true. I think it is true, I think many judges would laugh the case out of court before it even got there.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

There are more important things in life than war games.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> There are more important things in life than war games.


HAHAH HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHHAA

Im sorry, comming from Mr Ranty Ranter - that is the MOST ironic comment ever written on an internet forum. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> For it to be libellous you would have to PROVE his statement wasnt true. I think it is true, I think many judges would laugh the case out of court before it even got there.


Nope.

hed have to prove it was true.

Thats how libel law works.

And he coudnt, his own company accounts show in black and white without independents he wouldnt have enough sales for his business to exist.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> HAHAH HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHHAA
> 
> Im sorry, comming from Mr Ranty Ranter - that is the MOST ironic comment ever written on an internet forum. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


Thank you I try my best  but seriously, if you haven't seen the video, do yourself a favor and do it 

Perspective is the only cause for insight.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> Nope.
> 
> hed have to prove it was true.
> 
> ...


Well, not quite.

You are right, he would be forced to prove it was right, however you would be forced to prove it was done with 'actual malice'.

Because if you cant prove that, although you win the case, you both end up playing court costs, so for GW thats a win, and for the little guy, thats a loss.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Thank you I try my best  but seriously, if you haven't seen the video, do yourself a favor and do it
> 
> Perspective is the only cause for insight.


So are you saying after seeing the video you have more perspective on life and actually are comming round to see the light?


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> So are you saying after seeing the video you have more perspective on life and actually are comming round to see the light?


Hahaha. I bet you're funny IRL too. Actually, I meant it as a wedge in which we can see both sides being wrong. We are both wrong because our views on how GW's optimal business practice would work are diametrically opposed.

Perspective.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Hahaha. I bet you're funny IRL too. Actually, I meant it as a wedge in which we can see both sides being wrong. We are both wrong because our views on how GW's optimal business practice would work are diametrically opposed.
> 
> Perspective.


Ah. Well you have made a critical error there. The only thing I think personally is that GW could not survive in the uk without it's stores as there are not enough independents any more. I don't agree or disagree with any of the rest of it's policies, I'm not arguing necessarily to defend their position, rather to explain why they do it.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Maidel, my apologies to GW's UK staff. Your point is well taken.

I suspect it has something to do with the different polarization between US and UK cultures relating to hobbies.

Cheers,
Kreuger


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Maidel, my apologies to GW's UK staff. Your point is well taken.
> 
> I suspect it has something to do with the different polarization between US and UK cultures relating to hobbies.
> 
> ...


Jeeze, don't appologise! They aren't all saints or anything.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, my experience with front-line GW UK folks is limited to a few calls to mail order in the 90's and a visit to a store when in London. In neither case did I bump up against the culture one does when dealing with USA GW. In retrospect, I think I assumed too much about the UK staff - not that they are saints, I was just attributing them sins which aren't theirs.


----------



## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Well, my experience with front-line GW UK folks is limited to a few calls to mail order in the 90's and a visit to a store when in London. In neither case did I bump up against the culture one does when dealing with USA GW. In retrospect, I think I assumed too much about the UK staff - not that they are saints, I was just attributing them sins which aren't theirs.


Wow - back in the 90's if you wanted to order something did you have to make an international call?
Ouch.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep. It was the early 90's and I was ordering things that I couldn't buy in the states anymore. I had to get up and call before I left for school at like 6am my time, otherwise it would be closed by the time I got home.

I ordered a few RT era juggernauts, 1 or 2 of my blood slaughterers, and a few discs of tzeentch without riders because they were a viable unit at the time. 

The discs only came with heroes at the time. The Juggers and Blood Slaughterers weren't for sale in the States anymore - but it was still years before the newer metal jugger came out. And of course the Blood Slaughterer was OOP until Forgeworld made one.


----------

