# Void Stalker: Spoilers!



## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

I've just re-read Void Stalker once again and have noticed that the Void Stalker appears to be infact the Pheonix Lord of the Howling Banshee's: Jain Zhar. I could be wrong as Jain Zhar is also a sort of title but from the description in the book and the appearance of the model i think I am correct. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?


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## Codex Todd (Mar 22, 2009)

Yeah that's the conclusion I came to, was really hoping it was going to be Sevatar  Maybe the next book?


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## DavC8855 (Oct 14, 2008)

A new plot twist following the story of the new "prophet". 

I really liked the Night Lord's novels. ADB is the shizzle


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I was actually less of a fan of Void-Stalker than the other books. It seemed to have taken a totally different feel from the other two books.

Talos, namely, is more...typical? of a Chaos warband leader. He's much more cruel. Most would label him as evil. Even Octavia mentions this. 

It's probably because there are definite "civilian" targets in his way now. He did some pretty brutal things in _Blood Reaver_, but those were Chapter serfs so much less innocent than random civilians.

I read one review of _Blood Reaver_ that mentioned the NLs feel more like Ultramarines that had gone renegade rather than brutal, jaded Chaos warriors. That feel definitely changed in VS.

I'm pretty solid on protecting the innocent and weak and truthfulness, so all the civilian murders and Cyrion's lie not going discovered sort of grated on me.

Still, the book was good. Definitely different from the other two.

I think this is the "end" of the series. He can't advance the plot because the WH40k universe can't go further. At least much further, anyway. He could write on the specifics of the 13th Black Crusade, I guess...


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## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

That's exactly why Void Stalker worked for me. The first two books set up First Claw as almost sympathetic anti-heros and brothers in arms. ADB deliberately led us away from the perception of the NLs as terrorists and killers. As mentioned above, Blood Reaver has some graphic scenes in it, but the camaraderie overpowers that. Readers are too busy chuckling at the witty dialogue to notice that humans are being torn apart.

In Void Stalker, the warband comes apart fairly early. Fewer characters means less repartee, and ADB reminds us more and more strongly that the NLs are _not_ sympathetic characters- they're killers with centuries of experience and no sympathy for people caught in the middle of the Long War. The impact is so strong specifically because we've been led away from it. Looking back, Talos and the rest of them have always been like that- readers just conditioned themselves not to see it because it was fun to watch the characters interact.

I loved the series. The character who most surprised me in Void Stalker was Lucoryphus . He saw through Cyrion, survived the set piece at the end, and supported the Prophet. Initially the Bleeding Eyes were presented as barely rational, but ultimately he had more survival skills than most.

I too wish Cyrion's lie had been exposed, but of course it couldn't be. The story is a tragedy, and a happy ending would have been out of place. I have no doubt that details between epilogues like Variel's acquisition of Decimus are twisted and violent, but instead we're presented with a somewhat happy perspective about a new champion who's going to commit atrocities in the 13th Crusade.

In Blood Reaver, ADB thanks someone (don't have it in front of me) for providing the insight that saved the book. What was that insight?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think the tragedy could have been preserved if Talos discovered the lie AFTER killing the other guy. That would have been a double whammy. "Oh, shit, I just killed him for no reason." 

I also thought the prophet at the end was _too_ good. The Eldar are supposed to be the best at farsight, but the prophet makes Eldar farseers look like a bunch of telephone psychics.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

There were 2 things that flew by me in the book for some reason:

1: Why did Variel want Octavia's and Septimus' baby?

2: What was up with the 'Month of madness' epilogue? Was it supposed to be the aftermath for the region after the whole torturing and killing astropaths incident?

But yeah, I definitely enjoyed the book. I found Talos' death really well done and an appropriately bitter end for him.

"....Talos Valcoran of Nostramo died much the same way he'd been born: with black eyes open, staring at the world around, and silence on his lips."

I don't know why but I just love that bit.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Talos (and First Claw) were more brutal in VS because he accepted what he is.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tyrannus said:


> There were 2 things that flew by me in the book for some reason:
> 
> 1: Why did Variel want Octavia's and Septimus' baby?
> 
> ...


1. I don't remember exactly why but I assume it was for experimentation/rebuilding the legion.

2. It was to show that the Night Lords had finally spread fear and confusion like they did during the Great Crusades.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Designation P-90 said:


> 1. I don't remember exactly why but I assume it was for experimentation/rebuilding the legion.
> 
> 2. It was to show that the Night Lords had finally spread fear and confusion like they did during the Great Crusades.


1: I knew that I meant why did they want Octavia's and Septimus' child specifically?

2. I also knew that but I literally meant the epilogue called "Month of madness", where the epilogue is basically just ship transmissions and ends with someone speaking in Nostraman.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Decimus is Octavia's child implanted with the geneseed of Talos, inheriting his prophetic powers.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tyrannus said:


> 1: I knew that I meant why did they want Octavia's and Septimus' child specifically?
> 
> 2. I also knew that but I literally meant the epilogue called "Month of madness", where the epilogue is basically just ship transmissions and ends with someone speaking in Nostraman.



Off the top of my head I don't know the reasons beyond that. Where is ADB? Im sure he could clear this up.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Decimus is Octavia's child implanted with the geneseed of Talos, inheriting his prophetic powers.



Don't Octavia and Septimus escape at the end?


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## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

They do, but they're ultimately hunted down by Variel. He wanted their child in order to implant Talos' geneseed, yes, but as to why that child in particular...

He'd scanned the child while Octavia was pregnant, so perhaps he knew that the kid was a good geneseed candidate. Or, maybe, tracking them down just saved Variel having to actually interact with humans and find another candidate.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

It could be possible that Variel thought a child of a navigator implanted with Talos's geneseed would have even stronger prophetic abilities.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I liked the NL's using Sevatars survival as an urban legend,type deal.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Sorry if this is off topic ... but I did not enjoy _Void Stalker_.

I understand people explaining that ADB wanted to show just how evil and unsypathetic these Chaos Marines really were, but to be honest the whole book was just one big bummer.

It was like, hey here are these characters that, despite their 'evil ways', I've grown attached to as I can sympathise with their plight and the situations they find themselves in ... then _Void Stalker _was like:

"Yep, I am the prophet, and I am off to horribly torture hundreds of humans for days and days, because ... well ... because I'm evil"

"Oh and you know that human who fixes my armour, and has generally made the absolute best of a horrible situation ... screw him!"

I understand that in some sense these things were all in the first two books, but in them for example, when Septimus gets his face smashed in and Octavia is raped on the prison world, Talos is the one kicking ass and taking names.

So in that sense I felt it was a really severe jump that messed with the continuity of the portrayal of the Night Lords in the first two novels.

Instead of _The Empire Strikes Back_, this was like _Event Horizon_. 

That's probably not the best analogy as some people may say _"Event Horizon _is way cooler!!!", but what I'm getting at is, the tone felt out of sync with what I had previously read.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was my fault for sympathising with First Claw in the first place, but then again, I would argue, the way the first two novels were structured led me to feel that way. So round and round we go huh?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Sorry if this is off topic ... but I did not enjoy _Void Stalker_.
> 
> I understand people explaining that ADB wanted to show just how evil and unsypathetic these Chaos Marines really were, but to be honest the whole book was just one big bummer.
> 
> ...


Let me start off with this: I enjoyed the first two books a lot more. I enjoyed VS, but the two are definitely more of my favorite.

I'm not sure if it was wise to steer VS in a different direction. The people who like the first two's feel are unlikely to enjoy the the third book, and the people who would like the third book probably aren't going to be able to hack through the first two books. Now there's going to be some people who like both sides of the coin (I enjoyed both enough to read through VS in a day), but I think he's hitting two different demographics of fans.

I can't fault ADB with poor plot. Everything makes sense. Talos is losing grip on reality and most of the NLs are going to be the worst sort of men, anyway. As Talos put it, "We were repopulating the Legion with rapists and murders, with children who were the blackest sinners before they'd even tasted adulthood." 

About Septimus...

You have to look at it from Talo's perspective. By doing what he did, he not only disobeyed Talos's expressive order, but also potentially endangered the entire ship. Not just to destruction but potentially having their souls being torn apart by daemons in the warp. I'm not sure how her condition would affect her, but navigating is hard at the best of times.

I'm just surprised Talos didn't follow through with his medical threat from the get-go. It wouldn't affect Septimus's duties and it would ensure future accidents would not occur. 

And we were definitely supposed to sympathize with First Claw, I think. The only person I feel "betrayed" by is Cyrion. Everyone else managed to keep true their exterior. I liked Uzas's clearing at the end. Reminded me of Kharn. A thoughtful warrior pre-Korne.

I think it would have been better to continue it from a different claw's perspective. Have them dismiss Talo's command as weak and Imperial-like. Then commence with the slaughter and what not.

It's the best of both worlds, you maintain first claw's relatability, while also being able to introduce the real nitty, gritty-ness of a Night Lord warband.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a question. From the beginning of _Blood Reaver_ we know that the Exalted's force was no more than ~50 marines after the Blood Angel attack from _Soul Hunter_. We also know that the Exalted and at least some of his terminator elite do not follow Talos to the _Echo of Damnation_. 

How does the _Echo_ have 81 marines at the start of _Void Stalker_? The Exalted's ~50 marines already included the 11th company's men. In fact, at the start of _Blood Reaver_ 8 marines are killed. That should have reduced the force to 42-45ish marines.

Then in the short story "The Core" has them lose 9 more men!

By the time _Void Stalker_ starts, Talos should have around 30 marines. Yet, including him, there's 81!

How did that happen? Did I miss something in the audio drama (I didn't listen to it). Where do the extra 50 marines come from?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

hailene said:


> Let me start off with this: I enjoyed the first two books a lot more. I enjoyed VS, but the two are definitely more of my favorite.
> 
> I'm not sure if it was wise to steer VS in a different direction. The people who like the first two's feel are unlikely to enjoy the the third book, and the people who would like the third book probably aren't going to be able to hack through the first two books.


Very sweeping statements, though. Compare that with it being one of BL's best-reviewed books in the review blogosphere, and loads of comments already saying it ended the series perfectly, and I think you might be making very sweeping assumptions. So far I've seen three out of maybe five hundred and more comments saying they didn't like it, and two are in this thread. 

Perspective and all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "I didn't like it." I don't like lots of things. But it's less easy to make accurate statements on so much hyperbole. The people who enjoyed _Void Stalker _in their hundreds so far - reviewers and readers alike - are _exactly_ the people who loved the first two.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Very sweeping statements, though. Compare that with it being one of BL's best-reviewed books in the review blogosphere, and loads of comments already saying it ended the series perfectly, and I think you might be making very sweeping assumptions. So far I've seen three out of maybe five hundred and more comments saying they didn't like it, and two are in this thread.
> 
> Perspective and all.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "I didn't like it." I don't like lots of things. But it's less easy to make accurate statements on so much hyperbole. The people who enjoyed _Void Stalker _in their hundreds so far - reviewers and readers alike - are _exactly_ the people who loved the first two.


I didn't mean to come off as the two being mutually exclusive. I said so in my post that I'm one of the people who enjoyed both...flavors of the series. I read VS in a single day, I enjoyed it that much.

What I was trying to say is that both the feeling and the context of the stories felt very different to me. I don't know how a more casual reader would reconcile the difference. I think it would be fair to say that people have certain expectations of reading a series of books. Generally things have the same feel and if they do differ, the change is gradual enough not to notice unless you decide to pick up two books far apart from each other.

I didn't get that feeling going from _Blood Reaver_ to _Void Stalker_. There was some...momentum? of context rolling in from _Soul Hunter_ and _Blood Reaver_. We have a group of anti-hero characters going about destroying and harming things. They're absolutely brutal to their enemies, but they (or at least Talos) has a soft spot for those he cares about, both mortal and Space Marine.

Things take a very different turn in _Void Stalker_. As I said in my earlier post, I can't fault the brutal depiction of the other NLs as that is exactly in character for them. Rapists and murders and all.

Talos comes off as very different from previous works. Rather than the Septimus example D-A-C brings up (which, actually, I thought Talos reacted in a reasonable Talos-ish way), I think the killing of the bridge crewman in the void fight with the Brazen Claw cruiser was a bit out of character. We've had a couple examples of him being relatively soft on bridge crew (in _Blood Reaver_ and "The Core"), but it's understandable how he reacts out of the norm since it was an out of the norm situation (his best friend dying in his arms not too long before).

Again, I would like to emphasize that while Talos acted very differently in _Void Stalker_, it was both plausible and reasonable as why he acted so. There is no fault from a background or logical point of view in the change of his personality. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me boil down my opinion and thoughts with a crappy food analogy.

I walk into my favorite steak house. I had the _Soul Hunter_ and _Blood Reaver_ cuts last week and they tasted pretty good. I went back expecting another nice steak, but it turns out they're out. They do have a piece of _Void Stalker_ pie available, however, which I try, and I do thoroughly enjoy. I actually like it a lot. Still, it's not the steak I was anticipating and, even though the pie is delicious to the extreme, I still feel a little hollow inside that I didn't get a nice steak at the end of the day.

Plenty of people like steak. Plenty of people like pie. I'm a guy that likes both. I'm just saying that there are some people who like one or another but not both.
~~~~~~~

This is just my opinion, of course. You're the well-established author where I'm just some random guy on the internet. If better, more-read, professionals say that _Void Stalker_ was the perfect conclusion then they're more likely to be right than me.

On another note, Mr. Dembski-Bowden, I just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of yours. You're the one of two WH40k authors that I buy unconditionally. If the book turns out to be about a PDF regiment digging latrine trenches, I'm sure that it would be the most riveting piece of crap (cough) to ever be written. And still better than most of the other WH40k books out there to boot.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

hailene said:


> About Septimus...
> 
> You have to look at it from Talo's perspective. By doing what he did, he not only disobeyed Talos's expressive order, but also potentially endangered the entire ship. Not just to destruction but potentially having their souls being torn apart by daemons in the warp. I'm not sure how her condition would affect her, but navigating is hard at the best of times.
> 
> I'm just surprised Talos didn't follow through with his medical threat from the get-go. It wouldn't affect Septimus's duties and it would ensure future accidents would not occur.


Yeah, I can definately see your point.

In retrospect, that was probably one of the few things that Septimus could do that would earn Talo's wrath, when compared with what he would let other humans get away with. Again, as you said, he was endangering the whole ship, because if she went into labour while they were in the Warp, or entering the Warp, then they are probably Daemon food.

I think what I was getting at wasn't necessarily the in story reasoning behind Talo's actions, but rather the way the story shifted your sympathies away from Talos. 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Very sweeping statements, though. Compare that with it being one of BL's best-reviewed books in the review blogosphere, and loads of comments already saying it ended the series perfectly, and I think you might be making very sweeping assumptions. So far I've seen three out of maybe five hundred and more comments saying they didn't like it, and two are in this thread.
> 
> Perspective and all.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "I didn't like it." I don't like lots of things. But it's less easy to make accurate statements on so much hyperbole. The people who enjoyed _Void Stalker _in their hundreds so far - reviewers and readers alike - are _exactly_ the people who loved the first two.


Congratulations on the seemingly universal praise with which your book has been recieved.

I'm sorry that myself and Haliene compose 66% of those who failed to enjoy your book, although I don't think he ever intended to suggest he didn't enjoy reading it, so I'd say you can strike him off your list.

But, as for me, when I read it, I just did not enjoy the book. If you want me to quote your work back at you, and provide an in-depth examination of what I didn't enjoy so you can respond, I'm sorry that I'm not going to be able to do that.

The book is well written in terms of prose, and the internal logic and coherence of the characters actions are consitent.

So what did I not like about the book? The tone.


'_I’m surprised at Talos’ reaction to Octavia’s ‘situation’ because I had gotten the feeling in the previous novels that Septimus was almost considered something of a sub-battle brother. Obviously I was sorely mistaken! But it’s entirely characteristic of a Night Lord to react thusly._'

'_I was a bit put off by how vicious Talos was with the colonists on Tsagualsa, since he’s always been more restrained than the rest of his legion, not committing violence for its own sake but for some higher purpose, which was what made him sort of noble and more likable_.'

'_I was really please with how you described Talo’s aggressive nature in this book. Especially thought it potent when it puts him at odds with his longstanding “friends” like Octavia and Septimus. The tension it created was very tangible and really changed the tone an feel of the book. It reminded me that despite his melancholic nature, Talos is still this brutal trans-human murder._' 

'_Aaron seems to have pulled off some kind of American Psycho esque trick of basically getting his readers to relate to complete monsters, achieved here through the gradual escalation of Night Lord atrocities throughout the series...[In] __Void Stalker: we zoom out again, and we can see the Night Lords really are. Oops, they actually are as bad as other chaos space marines and probably a whole lot worse. We learn that Talos is a actually shithead of epic proportions. Wacky comedy sidekick Cyrion is also a shithead. Uzas is less of a shithead than previously thought. But still a shithead. Then they all get killed. Which they deserved. The Eldar did everyone a favor there. But many people talk about how sad the found the ending, because it’s not as simple as that and the characters are as tragic and as fascinating as they are loathsome.'_


Those aren't 'got-ya' quotes, in the sense I am quoting to attack your work (which would be silly really, as all the comments are from http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/void-stalker-reviews/ and are positive in nature) but they do support the fact that, I'm not the only one who noticed an escalation of the dark tone of the book.

Now, as someone on that site said, you've actually been really clever in getting your readership to sympathise with monsters, and view their actions through rose tinted glasses.

Looking back over the series all the tell-tale signs are there that these guys are d'bags, and even Septimus and Octavia, who are given a measure of respect by Talos are still in a state of slavery.

So in that sense, the change in tone was probably necessary in order to kick readers like myself out of their idiolised stupor and realise just how awful these characters and there actions are.

Talos' supposed rightious retribution against the Imperium decends, just like his Primarch's, into madness, with the population of Tsagualsa being the unfortunate recipients of the 'natural' depraved tendencies of the Legion.

So maybe I should go back and re-read the series from the start, now that I know how things will end up, and in doing so, I may be more receptive to the tell-tale warning signs spread throughout the first two books.

As it stands, what I've probably done throughout the series, was justify the horrifying actions of the Night Lords on the basis of my extreme dislike of the Imperium of Man.

Obviously my preference for Chaos has led me throughout the series to turn a blind eye to actions of those corrupted by its taint. Ironically, this means that, when I was confronted with the true nature of Chaos ala _Void Stalker_, I recoiled, and like all heretics, had a moment of realisation were I saw what really lurked behind the siren like whispers of Chaos.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'd just like to point out one last thing I didn't quite go over as thoroughly as I wanted to in my previous post that D-A-C and I touched on.

In the previous works, Talos didn't fit the "bad guy" mold. He was more thoughtful. More logical. More...noble? 

He lost his optimistic view point in _Void Stalker_. He lost control of himself and slipped became closer to the stereotypical "bad guy". 

And I think something was lost from the series then.


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