# The Unforgiven



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

After seeing Jurassic World in Newcastle today I took a walk down to the local Travelling Man to see if they had any pencil-line paintbrushes in. They didn't but before I left I took a moment to look at the BL books and see what they had, and surprise surprise sitting right there was a copy of The Unforgiven by Gav Thorpe, not even available on BL yet!

Grabbed it along with copies of Fall of Macharius and Curse of the Phoenix Crown (3 for 2) and will start it as soon as I finish The Dragons of Heaven by Alyc Helms. Will also review and post some thoughts here once I do.

Absolutely pleased as hell over this.


LotN


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

BL's marketing and scheduling are incomprehensible. :crazy: Good for you, though! Please let me know if Ezekiel does anything other than talk and act as Truthsayer.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

According to what I could dig up, its not supposed to be released until mid-july.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Is it the one after Master Of Sancitity ?Very interested in what will happen to Cypher since he handed himself in.
Though I hate how Gav Thrope portrays Marines or just DA in general, he makes them all look retards who have never seen a daemon or a chaos marine and know nothing of outside world. Felt like they were just teenagers in power armor. Read Ravenwing for worst examples.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

No thanks. I refuse to read any Gav Thorpe writes. It is shockingly bad. 
I got my hands on some of his stuff that had been converted to audio dramas and played them whilst working on the PC at home. They were so bad I got a letter from the council saying the neighbours had complained.

Hang on. WTF? cypher handed himself in? no, come on. What is he going to right next? who the 19th and 20th primarchs are? some things are sacred.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Stephen74 said:


> Hang on. WTF? cypher handed himself in?


He has a reason. And it's a bloody good one.

171 pages in so far and the novel is proving quite good. Cypher's presence has really thrown things into a curveball for the Dark Angels, and some rather interesting surprises have occurred, including one that I will now reveal as it confirms something that has been hinted at for a while now; (This has no real bearing on the novel's story, it is simply something mentioned off-hand that has significance for a character from another series.)




The book one-hundred percent confirms that Zahariel El'Zurias is a Fallen. Asmodai lists him as one of Luther's lieutenants along with Merir Astelan and Cypher, and that he is still at large.




LotN


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## Sevatar (Aug 21, 2013)

How many pages is this one?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

never thought I'd write this, but actually looking forward to a Gav (BL) book


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Lord of the Night - FULL spoilers and review please


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

What happened to the Death Guard and Typhus? Why Cypher surrendered himself? Who dies - please!


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Is where a void battle? Is it a good one? Which ships died - full spoilers please


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Finished The Unforgiven just now. Quite a good book and one that nicely brings all the characters full circle, and has plenty of great battle scenes and plot surprises that the reader will enjoy.

But that ending.... *OH. MY. GOD!!* I NEVER saw that coming. EVER. That reveal near the end propelled this book from Very Good to Great in my eyes. And because of the magnitude of this reveal, and out of respect to Gav Thorpe for this bold move, I will not reveal it here. You'll have to read the book to find out.

Review coming soon.



Anakwanar said:


> What happened to the Death Guard and Typhus? Why Cypher surrendered himself? Who dies - please!


The Death Guard and Typhus both play important roles in the book, and Typhus actually appears in the final third. Cypher surrendered himself for a very good reason; read the book to find out that reason. Some characters die, some do not, same as any book really.



Anakwanar said:


> Is there a void battle? Is it a good one? Which ships died - full spoilers please


There is a very big void battle, and it is really really good yes. No ships of note die though, just nameless ones. Lots of them though.


LotN


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

pLEASE Spoil me - please please


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I'll never read the book - But I am curious about the reveal.

Could you pm it to me?


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

PM me too - i will not read the book, i cant get myself over the bolder @that is written by [email protected] but i want to know the story


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Sorry gentlemen, but you'll have to read the books, or wait for somebody else with an early copy who will spoil it.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Now that sounds epic. I am starting to wonder if this is the opening shot for the 40k end times that have been hinted at. After all Cypher being in the hands of the Dark Angels have been unthinkable for many years.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Now that sounds epic. I am starting to wonder if this is the opening shot for the 40k end times that have been hinted at. After all Cypher being in the hands of the Dark Angels have been unthinkable for many years.


It isn't. Cypher being in the hands of the Dark Angels has a reason that while definitely momentous, is not the opening salvo of the 40k Time of Ending. As for it being unthinkable, the story references this and reveals something quite amusing and surprising on that subject.


LOtN


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Does he unsheathe the Lion Sword?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Small things like this I will answer.



Stormxlr said:


> Does he unsheathe the Lion Sword?


No. And the novel very plainly shows that Cypher doesn't just not unsheath the sword, he can't. Nobody can. Except for one man...



The sword inflicts vivid hallucinations indistinguishable from reality upon anyone who tries to use it. Asmodai finds out the hard way.



LotN


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Does Ezekiel do anything? Any psyker action of note?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

mmh, is there some closure or a huge cliffhanger ?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vitarus said:


> Does Ezekiel do anything? Any psyker action of note?


Yes and Yes.



piemelke said:


> mmh, is there some closure or a huge cliffhanger ?


Yes and no. This is the last novel in the trilogy, it's ending is just that; an ending.


LotN


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Lord - so why Cypher surrendered himself?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

not fair, not fair LOTN,
1.We have been craving for some interesting/good 40K books in the last 6 months (yes I would not mind reading Gav now)
2. This could/should be a discussion on what this forum is about in stead of bitching why BL sucks 
1+2 = you have the moral duty to provide spoilers


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Sigh... alright. In the interest of provoking discussion here I will answer what questions you all have. But I will not reveal the final twist of the book, that you'll have to find out for yourselves. It's just too mindblowing to be read in a transcript.



Anakwanar said:


> Lord - so why Cypher surrendered himself?




Cypher surrendered himself because he has come to help the Dark Angels stop Astelan, Methelas and Anovel's plan with Typhus. Cypher reveals a few things about the plot the Fallen have been working on since Angels of Darkness such as; it was Methelas and Anovel who released the virus into the citadel that claimed Boreas and his men's lives because they thought it was hilarious but Cypher and Astelan disapproved heavily, or that Cypher himself has been captured eight times by the Dark Angels and each time he surrendered himself or allowed himself to be captured in vague circumstances because he needs to meet with the Hidden Masters and give them aid against a threat to the entire Unforgiven bloodline.


For something to discuss I will reveal just what it was Methelas, Astelan and Anovel planned to do;



The plan was for Anovel to use the gene-seed from Piscina IV to support the founding of a new Dark Angels Legion using Astelan's world of Tharsis as a base (I am unclear what the psyker Methelas was to do). However the main part of the plan was something vastly more horrifying, to create a time rift to the Battle of Caliban and bring over all 30,000 original Fallen into the 41st millennium and together with Typhus's support, found the new Death Angels Legion.

Emperor only knows what they would have done with 30,000 anti-Imperial marines with Death Guard backing.



LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

cheers,
I was under the understanding that interaction between the DA founding chapters was such that it could be considered a one for all practical purposes ? That does of course not change the fact that it would have been rather interesting


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Ahem Lord - and how did they planned to create that? With what? It's illogical? Especially the part about the @Warp@ you know - that- thing
Could you explain? Even the EMperor doesnt have that kind of power


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Anakwanar said:


> Ahem Lord - and how did they planned to create that? With what? It's illogical? Especially the part about the @Warp@ you know - that- thing
> Could you explain? Even the EMperor doesnt have that kind of power




They planned on using the Tuchulcha, the strange device that the Lion took from Typhus and his Grave Wardens in a Horus Heresy short story. The Tuchulcha can affect time and combined with some other important items, can actually create a link between different time periods so long as the Tuchulcha is present in both, which it was as the Lion had it on his ship at Caliban.


Everything makes sense once you finish the book, nothing feels illogical or nonsensical.


LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

mmh it has been speculated that was the reason the DA could do very synchronised attacks on the NL during the HH it is however unclear what happened to if afterwards, one hypthesis was that the BA used it to jump to Terra, is there more info on that ?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

piemelke said:


> mmh it has been speculated that was the reason the DA could do very synchronised attacks on the NL during the HH it is however unclear what happened to if afterwards, one hypthesis was that the BA used it to jump to Terra, is there more info on that ?




Cypher outright confirms that the Tuchulcha is how the Lion managed to get through the Ruinstorm and into Ultramar, and it's how the Ultramarines managed to get out. I don't think the Blood Angels ever had any contact with it though.

One really interesting revelation is that the Tuchulcha exists in a singular moment across time and space. Essentially it exists in all places across time at once. Which, Cypher reveals, means if you destroy it as Azrael and Ezekiel wanted to do, it would destroy the Tuchulcha in all moments and render it as never having existed in the first place. Which according to him would ensure that Horus would win the Heresy as it was the Dark Angels and Ultramarines meeting up, through the Lion using the Tuchulcha to bypass the Ruinstorm, that convinced the Warmaster to damn the torpedoes and attack Terra immediately rather than wait for his full strength, which as we know led to the Battle of Terra and the 40k universe as is.




LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

cheers, so where was it the last 10k years and why have we not seen it before ?
and why is it not used more often ?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

piemelke said:


> cheers, so where was it the last 10k years and why have we not seen it before ?
> and why is it not used more often ?





In order;

1.) In a very very deep part of The Rock that only the Watchers in the Dark knew about.

2.) Same reason as above.

3.) Same reason again. Or... who says it isn't and the DA just didn't realize?




LotN


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## gamingharry (Feb 27, 2014)

Think its time I read Angles of Darkness and tried to catch up! Normally really enjoy Gav's work and Dark Angles are slowly becoming my favorite 40k chapter. Actually being able to learn some of the Dark Angels secrets instead of just having them vaguely brushed off is very enticing.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

aha, deep parts in the rock, watchers in the dark ?
anything on the Lion getting waked up ?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

piemelke said:


> aha, deep parts in the rock, watchers in the dark ?
> anything on the Lion getting waked up ?


No. That isn't touched on at all. Makes sense really, only the Emperor and the Watchers know and we aren't going to be getting their POVs in 40k.


LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

could have been the last scene of the book 
how is the shooter marine doing that got his lower half mangled (cannot recall his name but he recently got unto deathwing I think ) ?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

piemelke said:


> Could have been the last scene of the book
> 
> How is the shooter marine that got his lower half mangled doing? (Cannot recall his name but he recently got into the Deathwing I think?)


The last scene is something quite different. 



Telemenus. He is permanently crippled and seems set to become a wired-in sponson gunner for a Land Raider or for the Rock. Until his squad speak up for him and Belial okays his ascension into a Dreadnought body with a Twin-Linked Lascannon and Krak Missile Launcher.

He spends the rest of the book being an awesome Dreadnought who can snipe tanks with his cannon.




LotN


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## HaSY (Dec 15, 2012)

Any info about the number or description of other Unforgiven chapters in the novel?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

HaSY said:


> Any info about the number or description of other Unforgiven chapters in the novel?


Only two other Unforgiven Chapters appear in the novel; the already established Consecrators and the newly created Knights of the Crimson Order. Little is revealed about the latter but the former is shown to be a Chapter of relic hunters, specifically things from the past of the Astartes. This results in them having a lot of ancient and esoteric wargear, Belial notes that one of their First Company Sergeants has a sword that would be worthy of a Chapter Master, while their Chapter Master Nakir has one of the Heavenfall Blades that he recovered from the Orks after another Unforgiven Chapter lost it. Nakir is also an Interrogator-Chaplain/Chapter Master, titled The Master of Souls, and has personally broken and redeemed six Fallen.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Consecrators

The book also shows that in some small ways the Dark Angels have a first among equals attitude towards their secrets. Some higher ranking Dark Angels know more than the Chapter Masters of the Successor Chapters.


LotN


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## HaSY (Dec 15, 2012)

Great, I know about the two chapters already. As for Knights of Crimson Order, it is actually my friend's chapter that Gav graciously include in the novel and he himself got signed copy of Unforgiven from Gav.

So the successor chapters are chapter mastera instead of supreme grand master, right?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

HaSY said:


> Great, I know about the two chapters already. As for Knights of Crimson Order, it is actually my friend's chapter that Gav graciously include in the novel and he himself got signed copy of Unforgiven from Gav.
> 
> So the successor chapters are chapter mastera instead of supreme grand master, right?


Huh cool. Well the Knights do pretty well in the book, their Chapter Master gets to command the entire Unforgiven Battle Fleet against Typhus and his Plague Fleet.

It seems that way yes, though some may have their own titles. Nakir for example seems to be titled The Master of Souls, and the DA use that title as well suggesting it is official and not just a moniker.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The Unforgiven just became available for ebook purchase:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-unforgiven-paperback.html

Managed to hold off on reading spoilers. Eager to read this one.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> The Unforgiven just became available for ebook purchase:
> http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-unforgiven-paperback.html
> 
> Managed to hold off on reading spoilers. Eager to read this one.


Good, i'm looking forward to seeing the opinions on the events that take place near the end and the significance of them.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Wow, what an tremendous twister of a tale. And that ending, definitely absolutely did not see *that *comming. But it fits perfectly with the circular theme there has been with the dark angels since their past as the Order on Caliban.



So Azrael's command to the tuchulca to get everyone away.....it must ultimately have been this -very- act that picked up all of the Fallen, and spread them through the galaxy and the timestream as Caliban disintegrated from the presence of the rift.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Wow, what an tremendous twister of a tale. And that ending, definitely absolutely did not see *that *comming. But it fits perfectly with the circular theme there has been with the dark angels since their past as the Order on Caliban.
> 
> 
> 
> So Azrael's command to the tuchulca to get everyone away.....it must ultimately have been this -very- act that picked up all of the Fallen, and spread them through the galaxy and the timestream as Caliban disintegrated from the presence of the rift.




Yep, though it was Annael detonating his Dark Talon within the rift that actually destroyed Caliban. Likely this drew the Fallen into the rift and the Tuchulcha scattered them after misunderstanding Azrael's command.




LotN


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## Khorne's_Chosen (Mar 29, 2009)

The ending line makes it quite clear that the 40k Dark Angels have been manipulated to extract the Fallen from Caliban's surface with the power of Tuchulcha.
But... what about the loyalist Heresy-Era Dark Angels?
Azrael said "Get everyone safely away from the breach", not "Scatter the bad guys over space and time and leave the good guys where they are".
Some loyalist could have been scattered in 40k aswell, thus explaining some of the Fallen considering themselves as such.
But I do not remember any of them claiming to have been fighting FOR the Lion during the Fall of Caliban. 
Also, this would imply that some of the "bad" guys remained in the 30k half of the rift, which would immediately start a second civil war... well, perhaps they were all killed in the final phase of the battle or retreated. It could make sense.
Or perhaps, the loyalist were all scattered in the 30k part of the breach...
But Azrael's request was not so specific, on the contrary, he was fooled just because of his non-specific request... therefore, the division would have happened only becase Tuchulcha willed it so, perhaps being a servant of the Dark Gods. 
On the other hand, the Fallen survived the battle of Caliban thanks to Tuchulcha's doing in the future, and in that future they play a major part in making the very event that saved them take place, in a circular timeline like "I-saved-my-past-self".
I still do not understand the role of Typhus in this book, apart from him and the Fallen trio being tricked and used by Cypher to create a threat big enough for Azrael to listen to him.
Perhaps Astelan was aware of the bigger picture, but I ignore what difference this would make, as well as I ignore the reason behind this most complex of Cypher's masterplans. 
Does this book finally classify him as an enemy to the Dark Angels and the Imperium? Or perhaps he meant to save the Lion and bring him to 40k, for the end times, where he would be needed most? Why did he excape towards 30k? To start all over again?
I like to thing that the Hunt is the price the Dark Angels had to pay for the safety of the Imperium - a price that will grant them their Primarch in humanity's most desperate hour.
The answers are still missing, and I do not really feel this as a true conclusion to the saga -apart from the shocking finale, we are at the starting point again, with nothing changed and more questions than answers.
But I guess that's how it goes with the Dark Angels.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Got ebook version today, will start reading =D


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## Alive Blue Clown (Apr 16, 2015)

I am so interested!!!!!


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Well, I'm only a casual reader. Not hardcore into everything like most of you. But I rather enjoyed it. Cypher was the best part. Very cool. Our new Dreadnought kicked ass. All the plots and double crossing was fun. It was nice to see Ezekiel in action, and sensing important things, although I'd still like to see more of him.

What was the short HH story where Lion took the Tuchulcha?


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I wish they release a novel just from the POV of Telemenus ( Maybe a different story).


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## gamingharry (Feb 27, 2014)

So finished Unforgiven after reading the whole series AoD-Unforgiven in the last few weeks. Loved it to bits, one of Black library's better Trilogy's! Ending truly is a "Did they just do THAT??" moment and I loved it. Cant wait for Gav's "Angels of Caliban" later this year/ next year to read more about his Dark Angels. 



Holy Crap on a cracker where to begin. First, while it isn't spelled out I'm pretty sure this book confirms that Zahariel is Cypher. Its listed in the book that Cypher, Astelan, Luther and Zahariel where the top dogs of the fallen rebellion and Luther himself is later quoted saying that Corswain killed his Cypher at the fall of Caliban. That tidbit of information along with all the HH hinting and that the Cypher audio short was about Zahariel not Cypher himself in my mind confirms until proven otherwise that Zahariel = 40k Cypher

So the warp rift over Caliban was created by Tuchulca's meddling with the plague heart and the bridge. When Azreal then ordered everyone be taken to safety we can kind of assume that Tuchulca teleported all the Fallen to 40k and scattered them, and returns all the loyalists back to their ships in 30k? That's what we are roughly assuming. If so that's massive. The biggest implication I can see is: did any of the fallen really fall to Chaos then? If this happened is totally likely that everyone in 30k was really suprised by the warp rift and none really did cause it. All the Fallen at the time of the fall of Caliban where loyal to the emperor and potentially pure? Seriously how was this allowed to be written?? This is amazing. All this speculation will probably be confirmed at the HH series draws to a close with at least 1 or 2 more Dark Angel books left, probably all spearheaded by Gav now. 

Finally, less of a a discussion and more of a question, what was going on with Telemenus' God-Emperor visions? As soon as they started in Master of Sanctity I though we would be getting a demonic possession story in part 3, but that plot point didn't really go anywhere. When he encountered the Plague Lord at the end there was a little internal monologue about still being tainted but It didn't go anywhere so I'm not sure if that was him getting over the early possession? Any thoughts?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Sounds like BL has finally grown the balls to shake things up a bit


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## Seraphiel (Jul 13, 2015)

gamingharry said:


> So finished Unforgiven after reading the whole series AoD-Unforgiven in the last few weeks. Loved it to bits, one of Black library's better Trilogy's! Ending truly is a "Did they just do THAT??" moment and I loved it. Cant wait for Gav's "Angels of Caliban" later this year/ next year to read more about his Dark Angels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Note: several spoilers are paraphrased into the context of this post._



Actually, I'm very firm to the opinion that Zahariel El'Zurias became one of the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

Zahariel's top-quality psychic abilities (commented upon by the Emperor in Angels of Darkness) and wariness toward Luther's plans against the Lion (in Fallen Angels) would be an ideal personality for Malcador to harness; additionally, remember that most of the original Grey Knights were Throne-loyal members of the Traitor Legions.

The most powerful evidence, however, is the Epimetheus character in Pandorax. It's revealed in the final parts of that novel that Epimetheus is a Dark Angel, and very insistent on avoiding the attentions of his current-era peers. His physical description and overall ability-levels match Zahariel well, and we haven't many other choices among the currently-named psychic Fallen that would fit such characteristics.


Have some spoiler tags for your aforementioned spoilers.


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