# Is any race in 40k good?



## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

This may sound like a stupid question but is there actually a race in 40k who are actually good guys or are they all as bad as each other?

I know Tau are pretty good but quite a lot of collectors think humanity are good guys, which I think is false because they are killing everything in their way for their own greed. I dont know about the Eldar much so I cant really talk about that.

But if anybody has ideas or proof on this please tell me,

Thanks :good:


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

The TAU ending for dawn of war: dark crusade 




None of the races are really nice, but TAU is a bit nicer than the others...I guess. They are sort of diplomatic about it and use neutral words and such, but make no mistake about their motives. This is 40k after all and the soft and humane get curbstomped.

The eldar are selfish and will only work for their own benefit and survival, understandably. 

The Imperium is a rather nasty backwards theocracy that hates everyone else. By necessity at this point but anyway. 

Chaos is called the ruinous powers for a reason...it is that by nature and is the result of the emotions of the races in the universe. Like the bad karma of the universe or something. It does tend to taint and corrupt things but whether one can just say it is evil...depends.

The C'tan...I don't know how their thinking really works. 

For the orks it's just a way of life. 

Tyranids are like insects more or less...they need food.


Evil is such a problematic word.
Good? I don't know. Most neutral would be the Tyranids though.
Mind you I tried to keep things short and simplified...I'm not going to write a block of text on this...and I know I could cover chaos alone for pages if I wanted to go in depth...(obsession)

These are my conclusions, feel free to make your own. :mrgreen:


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

the tau only want to bring peace but they will do whatever it takes, eldar are a dying race that want to go out with a legacy, the imperium were not origanally 'planed' for attack they are simply trying to defend themselves (NOT for greed) in my view anythin with a tentacle growing out of it body or sumthin green is how you say "evil", but evil is such a misunderstood word for when we hear it we automaticly think "kill it NOW" but no-one stops to think "what is evil?"...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Tau want to bring peace to the Galaxy with the same ruthlessness that the Imperium wants to safeguard humanity- the Tau are equally as arrogant in that they believe it's their manifest destiny to control the Galaxy. If you stand against them they'll destroy with no qualms about it, the only difference with humanity is that they'll ask you to unconditionally surrender once before they do so.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

There are no good guys in the warhammer universe, the same way there are no good guys in our world. I would say that generally the Imperium and Tau can be considered "good" in a way that, despite all their warmongering, they have some higher goals. Maybe Eldar could also be considered good, because they fight Chaos, which is obviously the epitome of evil.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

This is the reason why it is called a 'grim-dark' universe. grim dark means that there is no good, its all just hell. everyone is fighting for their own selfish reasons and trying to make treaties seems to be an idea that has nearly become non-existent. all the major races of the universe have known war and violence for so long that they can barely comprehend any other way of solving their problems.

no the imperium is not good, especially not space marines, they drop into worlds without warning because of a few rebellious individuals and basically go on a genocide mission.

As far as the necons go, the necrons themselves are soulless, the C'Tan i think could definitely be considered evil. They are greedy at least. they became obsessed with the taste of life, as they feed on energy. they used to feed on stars, but then they found they preferred feeding on life much more, and they almost wiped out all the life in the galaxy until warp beings manifested in the real realm and forced them to go into a hibernation like state. (necrons dont know how to deal with the warp very well. this is why they have been developing Pariahs, to help combat this weakness agasint psyker and warp powers.)

Tau always give the option for new worlds to give up their old ways and accept the 'greater good' philosophy and the ethereals as their leaders. as mentioned though, the tau have problems slaughtering entire worlds that defy them.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

So the Tau are classed as 'fighting for the greater good' when they are actually luring or forcing other civilisations to join them, which may not be violent but evil, so it's true, they are all as bad as each other...


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

The Warhound said:


> So the Tau are classed as 'fighting for the greater good' when they are actually luring or forcing other civilisations to join them, which may not be violent but evil, so it's true, they are all as bad as each other...



Actually when they say "the greater good" I assume they men THEIR greater good. As in the members of the castes working together for the greater good of TAU.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

No race in the 40K universe is good. There are a small handful of people that get close, but each race frequently does things that the vast majority of modern humans would consider evil.

The Tau are a little better about it than others. From what I've read, they are happy to coexist with philosophies that differ from theirs, even if they consider it inferior to the greater good. But their rumored tendency to brainwash the masses into servitude is unquestionably evil.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Good and evil are matters of opinion. The imperium THINKS they`re good because they`re indoctrinated to believe in their own superiority. As are the tau. BTW, some necrons are well aware of just how evil they are. There are even hints about that the c`tan and necrons may not be on the same page regarding the "lesser" races of the galaxy. From what I see of it, the pariahs are intended to replace the necrons over time. What will the Lords of the Necrontyr make of that?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

No race in 40k is "good".

If any could be described as good, it would be Tyranids, purely because all they know is to feed.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

But seriously, no race can be considered good. Indifferent would probably suit most. Dark Eldar, c`tan, daemons, definitely evil.
Tau, Imperium, Eldar come close to good. At least trying to preserve order.
Don`t take my word for it. This is opinion, not fact.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Wanna hear my theroy about the origins of the tyranids?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Remember hoe the c`tan and necrons beat the crap out of the old ones? Maybe a few survivors escape to another galaxy. They bioengineer the perfect warrior race, able to adapt its form, strategy and psychic abilities at whim. They integrate themselves, becoming the hivemind. They plan to consumate all life in this galaxy, destroy the c`tan and necrons as only such a unified force can, and then tame the warp. With their source of power gone, the gods will weaken. Then, they can begin anew. What you think? Maybe the nids are good after all.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Remember hoe the c`tan and necrons beat the crap out of the old ones? Maybe a few survivors escape to another galaxy. They bioengineer the perfect warrior race, able to adapt its form, strategy and psychic abilities at whim. They integrate themselves, becoming the hivemind. They plan to consumate all life in this galaxy, destroy the c`tan and necrons as only such a unified force can, and then tame the warp. With their source of power gone, the gods will weaken. Then, they can begin anew. What you think? Maybe the nids are good after all.


The Ctan/Necrons didn't beat the Old Ones or vice versa.

During their war where the Old Ones created psychically attuned races, the natural inhabitants of the Warp (enslavers) managed to find a way to possess those races and presumably the Old Ones as well, wiping them all out.

The Ctan/Necrons then went into hibernation since everything was being killed and the Ctans lost their food source until now.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well actually once the C'tan joined the War the Old Ones did begin to lose, that's why they spawned the young races but this then led to the Enslaver plague and obviously the Enslavers didn't wipe out all the young races because otherwise we wouldn't have any Orks, Eldar or Jokaero (spelling?) etc in 40K- plus I know not all the Old Ones were killed, but they did become a dwindled race.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well actually once the C'tan joined the War the Old Ones did begin to lose, that's why they spawned the young races but this then led to the Enslaver plague and obviously the Enslavers didn't wipe out all the young races because otherwise we wouldn't have any Orks, Eldar or Jokaero (spelling?) etc in 40K- plus I know not all the Old Ones were killed, but they did become a dwindled race.


I've always found the Old Ones/Ctan/Necron background far more interesting than the Chaos stuff.

Chaos to me is like Superman, seemingly powerful in an infinite number of ways and any new found abilities GW cooks up for them can still be traced back to their early fluff without sounding so far fetched because they was always filled to the brim with power or expected to be. (IE Superman destroying an entire planet with one punch lol)

Batman however is far more interesting because he is mortal and just given a few tidbits of new fluff, stays true to his original creation but steadily improves within the realm of possibility. He is way more exciting to read about because he has his weaknesses and there is a limit to his power but that limit is not clearly stated but is believable. He has a history where we see him slowly grow in power, he doesn't _suddenly _emerge from his mother's womb, BANG, wearing a costume and a utility belt and then go looking for bad guys.


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

Unfortunately morality is only a set of values defined by a groups cultural or religious beliefs.

Each of the races may see themselves as doing good, or at the very least just doing what seems natural to survive. But it really depends on what you see as being "good".


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> If any could be described as good, it would be Tyranids, purely because all they know is to feed.


The need to feed is normally not considered a moral value, more an instinctual one to survive, in which case the Tyranids are neither good or bad. However, I'm pretty sure most of the other races would consider them bad.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

Every single race is stubborn enough to think themselves of doing good to the galaxy but the Tyranids are just mindless, they don't know, and care of what they are doing to the Universe, just because they are hungry and want to feed, so overall no race in 40k is actually good...


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

like other people have said, its impossible to judge who is 'good' and who is 'evil' without some kind of definition of the terms. so i propose that a definition that i think we can agree on for the most part: 'good', in the 40kiverse. as meaning 'that which preserves and enhances life to the greatest possible extent for the greatest possible variety of life forms'. (obviously 'evil' would be the vice versa, i.e. that which tries to destroy life and diversity).

if that is the definition, then there is one race that has been in the game from its very inception that has always been depicted as unequivocally good: the Old Ones and their descendants, the Slann.

they have always preserved life and eschewed violence.



vipertaja said:


> The Imperium is a rather nasty backwards theocracy that hates everyone else. By necessity at this point but anyway.


i'm not sure that Theocracy is really the best description of the Imperium. the Ecclesiarchy certainly have their say in things, but its not as if the ruling elite are also required to be priestly.

over all the belief in the Emperor as god, whilst being heavily supported by the state, is far more of a folk belief. the vast majority of examples of revelation do not happen to a priestly class (their are no official prophets or oracles) but directly to the people.

its the major reason why i personally think that the HH series will end with the Big E realising that he was far more divine than even he realised.




vipertaja said:


> The C'tan...I don't know how their thinking really works.


very much like handwavium.



vipertaja said:


> For the orks it's just a way of life.


generally speaking, 'just a way of life' has never been a good enough excuse when it came to morality. the Orks may be prone to violence, but that doesn't make their situation devoid of evil.



vipertaja said:


> Tyranids are like insects more or less...they need food.


i think that this is probably your least accurate description (Chaos as universal Karma being the most). the Tyranids are nothing like a natural organism.

if the Tyranid race was populating the places that it visited and simply moving on to colonise new territories, your description might be more apt. but they destroy every shred of nutrients they can find from a world and leave a dead husk. there is no intention of spawning new colonies to increase the size of the population. they are simply eradicating all other life.

added to this that individual Tyranid organisms are not kept on, but rendered back down into goop and used as the basic soup for creating the next wave of individuals to assault the next planet, and you are left with no doubt that this is not a natural process.

they are a highly sophisticated tool. an unnatural weapon used against the denizens of this galaxy, for some purpose that is ultimately unknowable.

there is nothing 'good' or even 'neutral' about the Tyranids. they exist to destroy.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

If the Tyranids eat nutrients and leave the planets dead husks, then what do they do with Necrons?
Simply speaking their Tomb Worlds are already dead, so what will they do with them?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> like other people have said, its impossible to judge who is 'good' and who is 'evil' without some kind of definition of the terms. so i propose that a definition that i think we can agree on for the most part: 'good', in the 40kiverse. as meaning 'that which preserves and enhances life to the greatest possible extent for the greatest possible variety of life forms'. (obviously 'evil' would be the vice versa, i.e. that which tries to destroy life and diversity).
> 
> if that is the definition, then there is one race that has been in the game from its very inception that has always been depicted as unequivocally good: the Old Ones and their descendants, the Slann.
> 
> they have always preserved life and eschewed violence.





admiraldick said:


> generally speaking, 'just a way of life' has never been a good enough excuse when it came to morality. the Orks may be prone to violence, but that doesn't make their situation devoid of evil.





admiraldick said:


> there is nothing 'good' or even 'neutral' about the Tyranids. they exist to destroy.


That is the case if there is an objective morality. If not its merely looking at things from a human moral perspective, which by no means makes it universal.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I have to throw my hat in the ring now and say that the Tau are ethically light-years ahead of the rest. With them you at least have a chance for survival and co-existence, whereas everyone else would genocide you out of principle. 

Picture yourself as a random alien race on a planet somewhere. Suddenly,unknown ships make planetfall!

If they are Tau, you actually get to talk to a diplomat and work out conditions, maybe benefit from trade and science and ensure the continuation of your species. If you say no, you get demolished, but it's the Tau Empire and not the au Utopia after all. 

If it's imperial ships, your very existence is a sacrilege. Your world belongs to the Emperor and you and all you know will be tossed in a mass grave somewhere, without a second's thought.

Chaos? "Sure, we can hold a meeting with the nixe xenos toBLOOD FOR THE BLOD GOD!! Fire up the rape mills!!"

Orks...the defense rests, your honor.

Eldar? "Your world used to be the site of the temple of Althurian, where our greastest farseer once popped a zit. Your presence here dishonors that zit's memory and so you shall all pass away into the everdark!". Or they might just steer a tyranid fleet toward you to protect the favorite picnicking asteroid. 

As for the rumors that Tau brainwash their people and so on, I'm yet to see any of it confirmed. I have seen fluff saying that ethreals have a gland or something that emmits hormones, but that's not definite. You might as well say humans lure fmeales merely by hypnotyzing them with pheromones, because hey, pheromone glands!!

It's quite easy to decide who is the closts thing to 'good' the universe can hold. Who would you want as your neighbor?


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

I think Chaos is good. Well, of them all, they are the most honest. You know where Chaos stands every time...complete and utter destruction of the universe.
The Imperium are evil, they pretend to be good but are in reality just as evil as Chaos is.
Tyranids could be called indifferent. They're no more evil than a swarm of locusts. They are simply feeding...that's their biology.
Tau just want what's best for them, whatever it takes.
Eldar are xenos scum
Necrons are killer robots from the future sent back to kill John Conner.

So my vote is Chaos good, they should rule the galaxy, and the corpse emperor should be cast down and his faithful slaughtered at the hands of their betters. How good would that be.


(pssst, look at my army and icon if you take me seriously at all, which you shouldn't...ever...but that's just common sense anyway)


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## quickblack1 (Mar 21, 2010)

But wait a minute the Tau are Evil because they harmed the imperium and captured many of there planets to. The ZEIST Campaign they attacked us not the other way around so i think the imperium is good:so_happy:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Raptor_00 said:


> I think Chaos is good. Well, of them all, they are the most honest. You know where Chaos stands every time...complete and utter destruction of the universe.)


False they are not the most honest. They are the most decieptful. Perfect example is Horus' visions of the "truth." Half truths are no truths at all.
I like the debate between anazlying what is good? A good quote "Evil is a point of view." (Darth Sithuis) 

It also brings up the idea if whether one can actually call chaos "evil." Because chaos is created by living beings especially the human race. Maybe good is just made up?

" We are members of, a brotherhood, much like yourself.. a cabal dedicated to thwarting the most ancient evil... I will not name this evil, suffice to say it is the bane of your race and will one day consume you."- The Little Bastards in Descent of Angels. Page 143

Of course its only something to get you thinking. But it should not consume the thought. Maybe those little bastards have something of their own agenda for the galaxy

I also like the careful word choice when the creatures tell him how Chaos will only "exist" as long as humanity exists. Of course "exist" can be implied differently as well. Does Chaos exist? I think in Liber Chaotica it explains that the chaos gods have always existed in one form or another. Though don't quote me exactly.

"Evil such as this can never be defeated. It can be held at bay for a time, but so long as there are humans, it will exist." 143

Interesting... so according this it cannot be defeated but it can just banish from existance?

So let's say humanity does get destroyed... how about the remnants of the Eldar? They are the responsible race for the "birth" though maybe not creation of slaanesh. Then let's say they also get destroyed... can every race equally contribute to giving chaos its power? 

What is good? Does that mean the continuous fight against chaos? Could possibly be. The fight for existence....?

"...all evil can be fought." 143


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Warhound said:


> Every single race is stubborn enough to think themselves of doing good to the galaxy but the Tyranids are just mindless, they don't know, and care of what they are doing to the Universe, just because they are hungry and want to feed, so overall no race in 40k is actually good...


Mindless? How can a race known to constantly evolve strategy as much as form be considered mindless? The little guys sure, but bear in mind those are just pawns. The collective psyche of the hivemind may be driven by hunger, but the higher caste creatures (synapse) are definitely sentient. Read the fluff on the swarmlord and hive tyrants. Mindless my ass.:laugh:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That is the case if there is an objective morality. If not its merely looking at things from a human moral perspective, which by no means makes it universal.


phew! lucky were not part of the game universe, so we are perfectly capable of being objective and seeing the objective morality of the game universe. violence is always seen as evil and the preservation of life and peace is always seen as good. its obviously not the major focus of the background but it is there. we shouldn't be too quick to impose out complex, subjective views of real world morality onto what is, essentially a simplistic model of a universe.


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## Tebok (Apr 25, 2008)

I thought the Dark Eldar very nice people. When I think of the Dark Eldar, I think of cute cuddly Care Bears.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Contrary to what others have said I believe Tyrinids aren't neutral or even good. After all the small buggers may be going on instinct, but I'm sure the norn queens (Spelling?) and other higher up synapse creatures are well aware that they are killing billions in their endless gene harvest.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

In general, the races of 40k are divided into Order & Disorder. No one is all white or all good, but some are better than others.

Order: Imperium, Tau, Eldar

Disorder: Orks, Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Tyranids


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Necrons as a force of Disorder? Dubious.

I get what you're going at--that those three are the nearest to "good guys" 40k has, which is saying something--but "less bad" doesn't imply "good" by any means.


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## Illiadar (Jan 21, 2010)

Actually, I'd say the only race that currently doesn't actively do "evil" things is the Eldar. Sure, they're arrogant, annoying, and want to kill everybody, but they only want to kill everybody because everybody is taking over their land. Which could arguably be considered not their land, but that's another discussion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Illiadar said:


> Actually, I'd say the only race that currently doesn't actively do "evil" things is the Eldar. Sure, they're arrogant, annoying, and want to kill everybody, but they only want to kill everybody because everybody is taking over their land. Which could arguably be considered not their land, but that's another discussion.


No...... they just think its ok to kill billions of men, woman and children to save a few members of an already doomed race.


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## Zwan (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't think any one race is objectively good. The whole idea of 40k is that everyone is morally dubious. This extract from tv tropes can more than adequately sum it up: 

The problem is, as bad as the Imperium is, they're not quite as bad as many of the other factions. Death is about the best you can hope for against the vast majority of the other major players in the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. The basic premise of 40k, insofar as it can be summed up, is that of an eternal, impossibly vast conflict between a number of absurdly powerful genocidal, xenocidal and in one case omnicidal factions, with every single weapon, ideology and creative piece of nastiness imaginable turned up to eleven. The _basic sidearm_ of a Space Marine is a fully automatic armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher. The Astronomican, a navigation aid, has the souls of thousands of psychic humans sacrificed to it every day, dying by inches to feed the machine. The faster-than-light travel used by most factions carries with it a good chance of being eaten by daemons. There are also chainsaw swords, armored gloves that crush tanks, mountain-sized daemonic walking battle cathedrals, tanks the size of city blocks and warships that level continents, if not simply obliterating all life on an entire planet just to be sure. And sometimes even that doesn't work. There is no time for peace, no respite, no forgiveness; there is only war.


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## RAM21201 (May 8, 2009)

I must go with (looks around) the squats.


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## JDMJapan (Jan 3, 2010)

The Jervis Johmson Race: Why can't we all just get along?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Zwan said:


> I don't think any one race is objectively good. The whole idea of 40k is that everyone is morally dubious. This extract from tv tropes can more than adequately sum it up:
> 
> The problem is, as bad as the Imperium is, they're not quite as bad as many of the other factions. Death is about the best you can hope for against the vast majority of the other major players in the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. The basic premise of 40k, insofar as it can be summed up, is that of an eternal, impossibly vast conflict between a number of absurdly powerful genocidal, xenocidal and in one case omnicidal factions, with every single weapon, ideology and creative piece of nastiness imaginable turned up to eleven. The _basic sidearm_ of a Space Marine is a fully automatic armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher. The Astronomican, a navigation aid, has the souls of thousands of psychic humans sacrificed to it every day, dying by inches to feed the machine. The faster-than-light travel used by most factions carries with it a good chance of being eaten by daemons. There are also chainsaw swords, armored gloves that crush tanks, mountain-sized daemonic walking battle cathedrals, tanks the size of city blocks and warships that level continents, if not simply obliterating all life on an entire planet just to be sure. And sometimes even that doesn't work. There is no time for peace, no respite, no forgiveness; there is only war.


:thank_you:

A truly awesome quote, perfectly summing up the Warhammer 40k world.

But that truly is it. The Imperium, Eldar and Tau are the closest thing to 'good' races in the galaxy, but because of the nature of the galaxy they live in, they've had to steel themselves in order to face the numerous threats of the galaxy.

I believe that the Emperor encouraged xenophobia within the Imperium, because since mankind first began exploring the galaxy, the vast majority of the alien races they encountered where hostile or otherwise dangerous to humanity. He decided that it was better to play it safe and consider all aliens a danger, rather than risk dealing with an alien race that appeared friendly, but in reality was plotting against humanity.

The Imperium, Eldar and Tau are as good as they can be within this dark and dangerous galaxy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I believe that the Emperor encouraged xenophobia within the Imperium, because since mankind first began exploring the galaxy, the vast majority of the alien races they encountered where hostile or otherwise dangerous to humanity. He decided that it was better to play it safe and consider all aliens a danger, rather than risk dealing with an alien race that appeared friendly, but in reality was plotting against humanity.


Aye that, and because of the influence they had on the galaxy via their nourishing of Chaos. The Xenos races couldn't be controlled as humanity could be via the Imperial Truth in this sense, thus in order to reduce the influence of Chaos, the Xenos races also had to be destroyed.



Akatsuki13 said:


> The Imperium, Eldar and Tau are as good as they can be within this dark and dangerous galaxy.


Honestly though, what makes the Imperium for example any better than the Necrons, Orks or even Chaos morally?


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## Zwan (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Honestly though, what makes the Imperium for example any better than the Necrons, Orks or even Chaos morally?


Heresy of the highest order! *shoots CotE*

But anyway... nothing. The fact that there is a church militant committing hourly atrocities in the name of the Emperor is testament to this. Or the fact that the Imperium routinely blows up its own planets to stem treachery. Or doesn't bat an eyelid at sending millions of soldiers to their pointless deaths daily. 

Again, the whole idea of 40k is that everyone - _everyone _(that's right, even the bastard Tau) is morally dubious. It's just because that we're humans that we'd like to think that the human faction is the nicest, when really it's probably the worst of the lot. At least Chaos has free dental and a good pension plan.


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## JDMJapan (Jan 3, 2010)

The Imperium can, and most definatly has destroyed planets with millions of people on them. Now are they so good?


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

I think that if you look at the actions then everyone is as bad as each other, but in order to get to the truth you have to look at the motrivation/reasons behind those actions.

Why does the imperium commit exterminatus? Because a planet is irrecovably corrupted by chaos/xenos beliefs. They don't do it for shit's and giggles. IMO the imperium is the goodest of the lot, they kill because if they didn't then they would be killed. They kill for survival. EVERY alien lifeform appears to be inimical to human life, and the slightest moments hesistation could lead to the destruction of mankind.

They are harsh because they have to be.

Every other race (possibly by GW design) take on the role of aggressors, Tau invade imperial space with messages of "join the greater good or die" and Eldar think nothing of condeming millions to death to possibly avoid the death of a handful of Eldar. 

So really the only "good" force happens to be the imperium, as their actions aren't motivated by arrogance (Eldar), expansion (Tau), War/Death/Omnicide (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, CSM)


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Honestly though, what makes the Imperium for example any better than the Necrons, Orks or even Chaos morally?


In the case of the Imperium, the vast majority of the morally wrong things they do are ultimately done out of necessity for their survival. Most times that an Exterminatus is declared as a last resort, when even with the vast armies of the Imperium, the cost of taking the world as well as the danger it poses is too great. Namely worlds that have been overrun by Chaos, an awakening Necron Tomb world, or a world being devoured by the Tyranids. They don't just destroy worlds for the hell of it. It's not like they go up to Tau worlds and say, 'That's a nice world you got there, Xeno. Exterminatus!'



> ...it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon.


This quote sums things up for the Imperium perfectly. Yes, they've committed terrible atrocities, even against their own people, but most of those have been done to preserve mankind. Wiping out an entire planet's population because it was exposed to Chaos, may seem like a brutal and monstrous act, but if they didn't, there's a good chance that there would be citizens that had fallen to Chaos, forming covert Chaos cults, spreading their taint to more people of the planet and eventually leading to another war on that planet.

Like I said, it's the dark and dangerous galaxy of Warhammer 40k that made mankind into what it is more than anything else. The Imperium of Man is merely acting to preserve humanity and its claim to the galaxy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> Why does the imperium commit exterminatus? Because a planet is irrecovably corrupted by chaos/xenos beliefs. They don't do it for shit's and giggles.


Right. But who is to say that upholding and maintaining a corrupt, tyrannical, murderous, and vile regime is more moral than embracing Chaos?



lawrence96 said:


> IMO the imperium is the goodest of the lot, they kill because if they didn't then they would be killed. They kill for survival. EVERY alien lifeform appears to be inimical to human life, and the slightest moments hesistation could lead to the destruction of mankind.


The same could be applied to most other Xenos Races, and even where it can't be there are other explanations. The Orks for example were specifically designed and created to be war-like and barbaric, they fight because it is what they were intended to do. 

In your interested, For my personal views on the morality of Chaos see this thread.



lawrence96 said:


> Every other race (possibly by GW design) take on the role of aggressors, Tau invade imperial space with messages of "join the greater good or die" and Eldar think nothing of condeming millions to death to possibly avoid the death of a handful of Eldar.


Most of the space currently controlled by the Imperium probably had Xenos life of some sort present there initially, and you say the Imperium don't take the role of aggressors?



lawrence96 said:


> So really the only "good" force happens to be the imperium, as their actions aren't motivated by arrogance (Eldar), expansion (Tau), War/Death/Omnicide (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, CSM)


Actually I would say that the Imperium's actions are just as motivated by arrogance (that they claim its their birthright to rule the galaxy), expansion (what was the Great Crusade?), and War/Death/Omnicide (They are incredibly Xenophobic and think that the mere existence of Xenos is blasphemy) as any other race.



Akatsuki13 said:


> In the case of the Imperium, the vast majority of the morally wrong things they do are ultimately done out of necessity for their survival.


As I said above, so do most other Xenos races. Im not personally claiming the Imperium is 'evil' - because I don't think such things can be easily (if at all) classified. I just refute people claiming that the Imperium is objectively 'good' or 'better' than other Xenos.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Most times that an Exterminatus is declared as a last resort, when even with the vast armies of the Imperium, the cost of taking the world as well as the danger it poses is too great. Namely worlds that have been overrun by Chaos, an awakening Necron Tomb world, or a world being devoured by the Tyranids. They don't just destroy worlds for the hell of it. It's not like they go up to Tau worlds and say, 'That's a nice world you got there, Xeno. Exterminatus!'


Obviously yes, the Imperium isn't trigger-happy when it comes to Exterminatus. 



Akatsuki13 said:


> This quote sums things up for the Imperium perfectly. Yes, they've committed terrible atrocities, even against their own people, but most of those have been done to preserve mankind. Wiping out an entire planet's population because it was exposed to Chaos, may seem like a brutal and monstrous act, but if they didn't, there's a good chance that there would be citizens that had fallen to Chaos, forming covert Chaos cults, spreading their taint to more people of the planet and eventually leading to another war on that planet.


But that is based on the assumption that that quote is true. Is it better for one hundred innocents to die than for one to embrace Chaos? Who says Chaos is worse than the Imperium?


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

I want to start the Dark Eldar as a second army as soon as they get a new codex (can't compete when ur 3 editions behind) but i can also prove that they are good! yep here goes

what are some of the "good" charictaristics ppl want to see Honesty, Fairness, Dependability...

Honesty... the Dark Eldar are the only mortal race who does not ever lie about their intentions... " I am going to enslave and torture you and possibly more interesting things :wink: because i enjoy it" very honest very DE mindset

Fairness... the DE are very fair the people in their slave chambers and flesh houses come from everywhere. Tau, craftworld eldar, their rivals o commorough, Normal humans, Chaos cultists, Space marines very much like the hangman from blazing saddles "Fear not for all are equal in my eye"

Dependability... Despite what inquisitors and craftworld eldar may think DE are EXTREMELY dependable. they have no greater purpose than self gratification, no greater good to protect no god emporer who's empire they must defend their interest ends at their skin and their stuff therefore the dark eldar despite what anyone including themselves says can always be depended on to do whats best for themselves.
:victory:


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

The Imperium of man is inherently good ... and I can prove it in five words. Al Sharpton In It's Past. 
:goodpost:


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

If there was a good race that shines above the rest it would probably be the Interex from the Horus Rising novel. 

Unfortunately you can't play them and I don't think we will see anymore of them anytime soon; but I would have to say it would be them who are the good guys. :victory:


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

This debate is part of the beauty of Fulgrim, the bit wear first captain is talking to the archivist about heresy.

he pretty much says heresy depends upon your point of view, though in a far more beautifully artful way. 

Almost every legion that became chaotic has a reason to be angry at the emperor. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Thousand sons immediately spring to mind.

The imperium is just as evil as chaos, as are the tau, they do stuff for the greater good, yet the still murder, fight and kill. If you do that you can hardly be good.

As stella said in another thread, there is no black and white, only shades of grey


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> In general, the races of 40k are divided into Order & Disorder. No one is all white or all good, but some are better than others.
> 
> Order: Imperium, Tau, Eldar
> 
> Disorder: Orks, Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Tyranids


Necrons belong on order. There is nothing disordered about them at all.



deathbringer said:


> Almost every legion that became chaotic has a reason to be angry at the emperor. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Thousand sons immediately spring to mind.


Why, Daddy?! WHY?!?:cray:


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> The imperium is just as evil as chaos, as are the tau, they do stuff for the greater good, yet the still murder, fight and kill. If you do that you can hardly be good.
> grey


killing is always bad from someones point of view, the base of things is if your a guardsmen your good, if your tau your good but to someone else your evil.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kale Hellas said:


> killing is always bad from someones point of view


From someone's, but not everyone's - and that is the point. Morality in this sense is simply relative.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The basic problem with trying to align the different factions in 40k is that good and evil just don't apply. Each race or more to the point species is doing what's best for it's own interests, good and evil just doesn't come into it. 
The Tau concept of the Greater Good could apply to any 40K race, Thousands of innocent people are sacrificed daily for the greater good of the Imperium. The Eldar are arrogant fascists for the greater good of their own species. The Orks depend on war for their survival so are brutal killing machines for the greater good.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The concepts of good and evil in 40k are an interesting debate. My belief is that good and evil aren't absolutes, there are levels of good and evil and even neutrality that each faction follows.

The Imperium is a corrupt, xenophobic and fearful faction. Humans who have committed horrific acts have emerged from this faction like Horus and Goge Vandire, and many more continue to emerge. Yet good individuals existed and exist in the Imperium like Uriel Ventris, Sanguinius and the Salamanders chapter. On the whole the Imperium isn't a good place but good people have come from it, though they are drops in an ocean.

The Orks can be considered evil by the people they fight and kill but they are victims of their nature. The only thing that truly matters to them is the next fight. They kill millions but they dont torture them, they kill their prey with a level of honour. Orks dont serve evil or good, they serve themselves. Its a point of view matter for whether or not the Orks are evil.

The Eldar are similar to the Imperium in terms of good and evil. They are a dying race that will do whatever it can to survive, and to prevent others from making the same mistakes they did, whether they want help or not. They will kill thousands to save millions, or sometimes kill thousands of others to save a few of themselves. They are arrogant but they truly mean well, they destroy and kill because they are trying to help but the other races are too blinded by hate to recognize that the Eldar are the best help anyone could ask for. A race to learn from.

The Tyranids are the only race in 40k that isn't good or evil in any sense. They probably dont even understand the concept. They kill to eat, not for fun, not for defence, not for territory. They kill and destroy so that they can feed and sustain themselves, its not their fault that their hunger cant ever be sated. Its all animal instinct for them.

The Tau are good at first glance but they have the capacity for cruelty in the Greater Good's name. In Dark Crusade if the Tau defeat Chaos then any Kroot that took part in flesh-eating rituals are culled to prevent taint spreading. This is an example that the Tau are capable of cruel acts for good. They spread the message of peace and prosperity but are capable of bloody violence and carnage if need be.

Chaos Space Marines are evil but they were once good. They turn for reasons, be it they were wronged, they wanted power, or they were afraid. The Death Guard turned to Nurgle because they feared death and pain. The Night Lords marched with Chaos because they were betrayed by the Emperor. And the Red Corsairs turned because they wanted power. The reasons vary but everyone turns to Chaos for a reason, good or bad. And Horus and Arguleon Veq are proof that people can escape the grip of Chaos, though at great cost.

Chaos Daemons are interesting as well. They are evil, but they are evil incarnate. Good doesn't exist in them because it can't, by definition evil cannot be good. Chaos Daemons are evil but in my view they are lesser evils then others. For Dark Eldar or the Imperium they are aware that better choices, more peaceful choices, exist but they wont take them. For Chaos Daemons those choices can't be made because they cannot fathom them.

The Necrons can be considered evil but in reality they are slaves to the C'tan. They turned to them because of misery and fear of death, and hate of the Old Ones who had everything while they had nothing. They turned to darkness for better reasons then most do. And they are unaware of what they are doing, whatever sentience they had is lost forever.

The Dark Eldar are considered evil and depraved by all but in reality they are products of their environment. Dark Eldar aren't born evil, the environment they grow up in turns them evil or dead. As they grow they must become ruthless, sadistic and bloodthirsty otherwise they will die by the other Dark Eldar who have gone down that road. Given the chance some of them could become better beings. Bechareth from _Path of the Warrior_ is proof, he was an Incubus before becoming a Striking Scorpion because he was given a chance at a better life.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I can see where your coming from _LotN_, but ultimately those views of 'good' and 'evil' are grounded from a human perspective and viewpoint. You stated whether or not each race was 'good' or 'evil' but you didn't say why.



Lord of the Night said:


> Chaos Daemons are interesting as well. They are evil, but they are evil incarnate. Good doesn't exist in them because it can't, by definition evil cannot be good. Chaos Daemons are evil but in my view they are lesser evils then others.


For example, why would you consider Chaos Daemons evil?


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> The concepts of good and evil in 40k are an interesting debate. My belief is that good and evil aren't absolutes, there are levels of good and evil and even neutrality that each faction follows.
> 
> The Imperium is a corrupt, xenophobic and fearful faction. Humans who have committed horrific acts have emerged from this faction like Horus and Goge Vandire, and many more continue to emerge. Yet good individuals existed and exist in the Imperium like Uriel Ventris, Sanguinius and the Salamanders chapter. On the whole the Imperium isn't a good place but good people have come from it, though they are drops in an ocean.
> 
> ...etc.


Best post in this debate so far.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

To me, it seems like GW _does_ divide the factions into 2 ideological "super-factions." 
Order and disorder. Tau, Imperium, & Eldar on order, everyone else on disorder. For example, when the Imperium does puts ego aside and form a temporary alliance against another enemy, it is usually a temporary alliance with the Tau or Eldar against the Orks, CSM, necrons, you get the idea.

Another piece of evidence that GW has a notion of two super-factions is hidden in the cinematics of soulstorm. Even in the free-for-all style of that game, I found something. The racial ending movies always start with or feature a scene of that race beating up another one. What I noticed is that in all these movies for the factions identified with "order," (SoB, IG, Eldar, Tau, SM) they are only shown fighting the forces generally considered "disorder" (CSM, Dark Eldar, Necrons, etc.) the opposite is true as well. While we know that all the factions did fight each other in the game, this pattern in the ending movies does seem to indicate some sort of grouping....

So, while super-faction idea is not apparent in the fluff or gameplay itself, I am pretty sure that it plays a role in the GW meeting room.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

in the 41st millennium there is no black and white, only of shades of grey.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> To me, it seems like GW _does_ divide the factions into 2 ideological "super-factions."
> Order and disorder. Tau, Imperium, & Eldar on order, everyone else on disorder. For example, when the Imperium does puts ego aside and form a temporary alliance against another enemy, it is usually a temporary alliance with the Tau or Eldar against the Orks, CSM, necrons, you get the idea.
> 
> Another piece of evidence that GW has a notion of two super-factions is hidden in the cinematics of soulstorm. Even in the free-for-all style of that game, I found something. The racial ending movies always start with or feature a scene of that race beating up another one. What I noticed is that in all these movies for the factions identified with "order," (SoB, IG, Eldar, Tau, SM) they are only shown fighting the forces generally considered "disorder" (CSM, Dark Eldar, Necrons, etc.) the opposite is true as well. While we know that all the factions did fight each other in the game, this pattern in the ending movies does seem to indicate some sort of grouping....
> ...


Order and Disorder maybe. But that doesn't automatically mean that Order = 'good' and Disorder = 'evil'.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> For example, why would you consider Chaos Daemons evil?


Because they massacre and slaughter innocents. However to them that is good, for evil is their good. Its all about points of view, Chaos considers itself evil because they know they are evil and they are fine with it. The rest of the races consider themselves the good guys, or in the Orks case they dont care.

Every race in 40k is evil to a degree, bar the Tyranids who aren't good or evil, but the why is about detail. Every race has examples of cruelty and acts that most would consider evil, some can justify them, some can't justify them, and some dont want to. Good in 40k is mostly about who is the least evil.

However the Salamanders Chapter are good guys, perhaps the last true good Chapter of Space Marines left, the last Chapter who still remember that they must not only kill the Emperor's enemies but protect his people.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> in the 41st millennium there is no black and white, only of shades of grey.


As it is in real world. I don't get where the people got the idea that moral standards of Warhammer universe are so different than ours.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> As it is in real world. I don't get where the people got the idea that moral standards of Warhammer universe are so different than ours.


Watching to many justice friends episodes probably.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> As it is in real world. I don't get where the people got the idea that moral standards of Warhammer universe are so different than ours.


Just darker shades of grey, that's the only difference I see.

Perhaps the reason we like the 40k universe is that we are all Philosophers, thinking about moral conundrums and arguing about the reasons behind certain acts. 40k certainly asks a lot of those types of questions.

Another reason we like 40k could be that we just all like chainswords though.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, the generally perceived "good" race of 40k is a bunch of arrogant, xenophobic, self-destructive warmongers who commit genocide on a daily basis... so I'm inclined to say no.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

BloodAngelsfan said:


> Well, the generally perceived "good" race of 40k is a bunch of arrogant, xenophobic, self-destructive warmongers who commit genocide on a daily basis... so I'm inclined to say no.


Well genocide is such a harsh them..... I like to think of it as cultural cleanup.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> As it is in real world. I don't get where the people got the idea that moral standards of Warhammer universe are so different than ours.


Because moral standards change over time and are affected by the situations you find yourself in. 
In the real world, here and now, we are not about to be eaten by a huge swarm of giant bugs or about to have our insides turned into marital aids by Slaanesh worshippers. 
In today's world we would never even entertain the idea of killing thousands of people everyday just to keep the Queen on life support nor would we decide to take over the world in a huge genocidal war where anything that didn't fit with a certain type of humanity would be wiped out as an affront to creation. 
The Emperor was a blood crazed tyrant who first conquered the earth then set about the rest of the galaxy. He united humanity through fear and wasn't worried about having to wipe out entire worlds that chose not to embrace His views. 
The Tau are no different, they just give you the option first "join us or die".
Good and evil are no more than points of view and they do not apply in 40K


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Because they massacre and slaughter innocents.


Indeed they do, but even so I wouldn't class them as 'evil'. There has to be an objective morality in order for anyone to be classed as universally good or evil, and seeing as though there isn't an objective moral code - no one is good and no one is evil. Everyone just acts in their own interests/desires/need for survival etc. Thats how I view it anyway.



Lord of the Night said:


> Chaos considers itself evil because they know they are evil and they are fine with it.


I don't think Chaos could even grasp the concept of morality really. They do what they do to sustain and increase their own power and to ensure their own survival. In this sense, they are no different than the Imperium.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

chaos is random, therefore the most moral in 40k because of that, its like the guy in dark knight heads you die tails you live.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> In today's world we would never even entertain the idea of killing thousands of people everyday just to keep the Queen on life support


That depends, are the thousands of people French?


normtheunsavoury said:


> nor would we decide to take over the world in a huge genocidal war where anything that didn't fit with a certain type of humanity would be wiped out as an affront to creation.


Again, are they French?


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I've been thinking recently, in chaos only a small minority are sane enough to suffer, the rest get pushed into sharp spikes whilst the chaos marines and cultists laugh and laugh along with them. The cultists are shot by their own masters for fun but still don't mind jumping in front of shots intended for them to save the paint on their armour. The Chaos Gods and daemons devour the souls of chaos marines but then they become one with a God they happily served.

My point is this: it may be evil to one culture but as Lorgar said "The difference between Gods and daemons depends largely upon where one's standing at the time". It may seem bad to sacrifice thousands of people in agony, but when those people are queuing up to die for chaos, heedless of the pain, we have to ask ourselves is what they want something we can call wrong just because it doesn't appeal to us? If we worshipped chaos wouldn't we all be happy?

Compare this to the imperium where the vast majority suffers for a God they don't see in and endless depressing cycle with no hope of escape until their killed by gangs, factory accidents, invasion, getting thrown in the PDF or Guard regiments or if their lucky dying of old age. If the High lords and governors are the only ones really enjoying themselves, surely Chaos makes a lot more people a lot more happy.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> That depends, are the thousands of people French?


A good point very well made, I didn't consider the French!


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