# Chaos Units - Why not?



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Having lurked a lot in the CSM army lists forum, I saw that there were certain units that rarely or never made it to the stage. Namely the Possessed Space Marines, Bikers, Raptors, Chosen and Havocs. My question is twofold: 1, What are the pros and cons of these units? 2, Why aren't these guys fielded more often?


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

In before thread move...


Khorothis said:


> Having lurked a lot in the CSM army lists forum, I saw that there were certain units that rarely or never made it to the stage. Namely the Possessed Space Marines, Bikers, Raptors, Chosen and Havocs. My question is twofold: 1, What are the pros and cons of these units? 2, Why aren't these guys fielded more often?


There are various reasons for each unit, even though I disagree with them.

Possessed; very expensive, random element that you don't know before you deploy, no ranged attack, not neccessarily a stat line for a dedicated assault unit. If you knew what you had before you deployed, they might be viable, but Berserkers are worlds ahead of these guys for all the reasons above & more.

Bikers; also very expensive and difficult to use properly. I personal enjoy using Bikers; having a full squad of T6 models is pretty rude to the enemy. This would probably fall under the category; "Other units are easier to use and perform the same function". 

Raptors; similar to Bikes, slightly expensive and difficult to use properly. Raptors used to be much more dangerous too, so it might just be a stigma thing from older codecies. Again, other units may simply do a better job with less risk.

Chosen; I don't know why people don't use Chosen. Their the most customizable unit in the Chaos Codex and a steal cost was for what they can do. I think sharing a slot with Terminators makes people question them a little bit. It could also just be a personal preference.

Havocs; the mantra, "Why take Havocs when you have Obliterators?" Makes some sense, but perhaps too many people have become too comfortable with Obliterators being the be all end all of the Chaos Heavy options. You can choose what to fire, fire on the move and are dangerous to everything on the board. Havocs are another difficult unit to use properly in comparison, but a personal favorite of mine is sticking a Havoc unit in cover with the Icon of Nurgle; makes them hellatiously durable (as my opponent put).


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## scruff (Mar 3, 2008)

^ What he said

If you want a Raptor unit, then you're mad - it's more expensive than an Assault Marine (any SM codex), for a guy without ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads... or a decent, plastic model. Thats right, you can either do Possessed/Assault conversions... or buy the AWFUL metal models (well, relatively)

Possessed are awesome, I love them... but you look at Penal Legion Troopers and say 'what makes these criminals better than my guys at telling people WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE'?

Bikers are also awesome, but the points to get an effective unit... no

Havocs I love using as well... more than all 3 of the above choices. I don't even use them in the way many would expect - meltaguns. Lots and lots of meltaguns. Then a combi-melta on the champ, and a power weapon/fist, and you've got a cheap assault squad. Got trouble with fitting it into World Eaters. How?


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Chosen are pretty good. And i like people using havocs for meltas/flamers, not That effective, but can still kill stuff and is hella fun. Raptors are useful for shielding winged lord with daemon sword...another fun thing to do, but thats about it.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

-Chosen are probably the best Elites choice in the Codex. You can have four infiltrating melta guns for only 130 points. Tack on an extra 10 pts and you have far and away the best unit for summoning Greater Daemons. I'm a huge fan of the unit and it's rare I do not take at least one squad.

-Raptors suffer when compared both to assault marines and to vanilla Chaos Space Marines. AM have far more tricks and are cheaper. CSM already have two CCW in addition to their bolter, greatly narrowing the CC niche raptors seem to want to fill.

-Havocs can be quite useful, especially against mechanized Eldar (Craftworld and Dark), but they suffer from having too much competition. With Defilers, Vindicators and Obliterators available, there are simply far more exciting options available.

-With just a small tweak to the Daemonkin rule, Possessed could have been a fantastic and balanced choice. Quite a shame, really.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

-personally, i love using bikers. they are great when you pop them with 2 meltaguns and a champ with a powerfist and meltabombs and an IoK. this is only cost effective in a 10 man squad, but they are still good fun to use in friendly games.

-raptors are pretty woeful both in their statline and the models themselves. the models cannot accomplish anything that either vanilla csm or berzerkers cannot. the models fall over, so i try sticking a wad of blue tack under the base. plastic models might encourage people to use them.

- chosen are brilliant. i field mine with 4 meltaguns, 2 meltabombs and a champ with lightning claws, either infiltrating or in a rhino. pretty good value. they are highly customisable, suitable for CC, short range anti-tank, anti-infantry or taking out a special character.

-If possessed had fleet as standard and daemonkin gave them a 50:50 chance of power weapons or feel no pain, they would be good. as they are, they are too expensive and random, shame because the models are pretty nice.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I'd personally buy the raptors if they came in plastics, though I'm not one for forced dramatic poses. With plastics I could edit thier poses much easier. Raptors and bikes are more of a playstyle choice. Some people can use em, others cannot.

Chosen. I'm guessing that these are not fielded as much becuase of the cost and ability of cult marines. Why choose a unit of chosen when you can fit one more unit of Plauge marines in. I don't field them becuase my TS cost so darned much that I need something cheap to fill in gaps.

Possessed. No one likes to have unknowns. You will find that not many run Dreads becuase they cannot control them, they are unknowns. Possessed have a similar problem, you cannot count on the cost being benefitial to your battleplan.

personally, I just don't like possesed, they seemed more like an afterthought in the codex. I'm trying dreads with about a 70% success rate at this time. Reserve rolls are not always my friend, though I can honestly say I've only killed 1 figure so far with my own dread.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Do people actually _use_ the flying hovercar raptor models?!? uke: I've two squads of raptors, one using the old hang glider backs and the other using fury wings, both using slightly converted Berzerker and regular plastic bodies, and I like them. Then again, I like flying sorcerors, too.

Chosen are great, especially as infiltrating melta gun squads.

I remain biased against possessed, but honestly in the previous codex I just used mine as a second raptor squad, so I may just have not given them a chance, yet.

Havocs might be worthwhile if you absolutely had to max out on lascannons or devised some strategy relying on heavy bolters and autocannons. Otherwise, it just seems that the flexibility of the obliterator is worth the slightly higher cost.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

> Possessed. No one likes to have unknowns. You will find that not many run Dreads becuase they cannot control them, they are unknowns. Possessed have a similar problem, you cannot count on the cost being benefitial to your battleplan.


I regularly field 3 Dreads with 2 DCCWs with my Legion of Brass army (Berzerkers with 3 Defilers and 2 DPs) and love them! It's easier to stomach 100 pts not accomplishing a whole lot than the points it takes to field Possessed!


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't have 2 dreads, But I do field one. Exactly as your said. After putting my list together, for 100 pts, it provides a much needed HtH ability that my army lacks. Far cheaper than taking a unit of Termi to get a powerfist, and slightly more survivable until close combats. (can't just saturate fire them to death)

As for Raptors, I like the new raptor jetpacks, I wasn't a fan of the "wings" However I like the vulture look of the older models vs the "clockwork" look of the newer ones.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

My Night lords force makes extensive use of Raptors.

you guys make like this:

Instead of those cringe inducing models from the Chaos range, I simply bought SM assault marines and use the metal Nightlord heads/shoulder pads, Chaos CCW and bolt pistols, Chaos Chest plates, Various Chaos legs and other bits like spike n stuff. (the Champion uses the Power fist from the Night lord hero model).

My Chaos Lord is mere a heavily converted shrike (including sawing the head off both him and the night lords hero models, and putting the NL hero head on shrikes body, and lots of spikes and bits).

I love Raptors, but only cus i love the Night Lord Fluff...There has been occasions where opponents have asked why i use them, and my only logical answer is fluff.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

The way I see it, it is not necessarilly that the squads you are asking about are all poor choices (though some are) but more that there are other amazing choices that take points and force org slots away from them. Daemon Princes, Cult Troops and Obliterators are extremely competitive. Once you have taken two DPs, four to six squads of cult troops and two to three squads of Oblits, you are running out of points...which is okay because you have loaded up on all the units that are super competitive, and that aren't offered in any form in any other army, so you are making the most of CSMs strengths. Honestly, if I find myself with a hundred points left over, I put it into more troops. With 5th edition being mostly objective based, those troops are valuable, and the best part is they perform consistently well, and, depending on the cult, can be built to perform all functions.

In my mind, if you are going for maximum competitive value, when the dust settles you won't have any points left for the units in question. They do certainly have a place in friendly games and Apoc though.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Zaden said:


> In my mind, if you are going for maximum competitive value, when the dust settles you won't have any points left for the units in question. They do certainly have a place in friendly games and Apoc though.


^ Very true ^ 

I have definitely thought about picking up some havocs, bikes, raptors, and dreads eventually. Mostly just for fun in games and to expand my Chaos army for future Apoc battles. So far I have actually tried a Chosen squad with 4-5 meltas and has not worked as well as I had hoped, but I've only ran them twice.

The good thing about playin those friendly games with units not normally used, is that you get a good chance at experimenting with how units mesh together in an army list. See how they work for you in your tactics. Sometimes you can find that maybe one unit that doesn't work out for many people just does for you. Eventually finding a way to mix those "used to be friendly game units" into competitive play to mix things up a bit for opponents used to the "competitive chaos" lists.


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

Havoks are also pretty decent at anti infantry with 4 hvy bolters, but for anything else oblits sorta take the cake. Chosen are amazing, I really think theyre a good unit. as for all the rest, well.... Its already been said, theres just so much better stuff out there why would you handicap yourself.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Chosen= Sheer awesome (Just don't use the retardedly expensive multi-fist unit)
Havocs= cheap assault/heavy weapons spam.

Speaking of which who said chosen, and havocs where bad choices. Seriously I would like to know since they are clearly idiots. I mean they have everything their loyalist counter parts have, and more. Now as for the other units you mentioned I feel that most suffer from the (theirs something that does it better) or (Their to expensive for what they do). Mind you most people that post their lists online, and comment on such things hate any point wast since their seeking to make hyper competitive lists. Hell I don't even use the godly oblitorator since I can do better things with the points.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

You asked _why_ people say that you shouldn't use them and then I'll say how you could use them to relative "great" success, a sort of Pros and Cons. Besides the ones you listed I'll raise you three more.

*Possessed:* Berzerkers pretty much always end up being more useful than them so you aren't really getting any reliable amazing advantages by taking Posssessed instead. There are possiblities that they are great, but for their cost, there is a good chance they won't. Also surprisingly, if you take Vanilla marines give them an Icon of Tzeentch and use Fabius Bile to make them stronger, you have the same stat equivalent squad (minus the possibilities from Deamonkin) but it can take a champ and two special weapons and have more weapons (bolters etc).
_
On the other hand,_ by giving them a Mark of any kind (except Glory) they will be obviously better in that one way and can be very awesome if you roll the right result on the table. Again for their steep point cost, you _could_ end up with a sweet squad but that risk is better left for games between friends or Apocalypse where it doesn't matter whether you win or not, just so you have fun.

*Bikers:* Because they cost so _bloody_ many points many other squads can do the same thing but more efficiently. For example, Plague Marines in a rhino. Still get the added toughness, but also get FNP, defensive grenades and count as troops. They wouldn't be considered a "bad" unit if they weren't as expensive.

_On the other hand,_ if you want to DS stuff such as Termis, Termi-lords, lesser deamons (for some reason) or Oblitorators, an icon could be over there with a Cover save in turn 1! Also for an albeit expensive AC, you could also bring in the less than great Greater Deamon very close to where ever you want. Also a large squad is a relatively fierce unit, but again, would only truly be useful in Apocalypse where points almost don't matter.

*Raptors:* As mentioned in other posts they are mostly just still around from previous editions. Since every unit has the ccw and pistol, taking these jump infantry will actually make you lose your bolter. Unfortunately, for whatever purpose you want to use this unit for, there is probably something else that can do just that, for cheaper and more effectively.

_On the other hand,_ you don't need 10 for 2 special weapons so you can take 2 in a 5 man squad. This can be used for DSing meltas to suicide gank some tank as soon as they come in. Most people wanting to do this will just use termis with combi-meltas and possibly PF's since you can have smaller squads and they can DS onto icons for no scatter. The advantage of the Raptors is that if the don't get owned the turn after they come in, they can have an icon _and_ can quickly fly to a new target to terrorize. Again in Apocalypse a large squad with assault weapons and a Mark (such as Khorne or Slaanesh depending on your foe(s)) can be devastating, but anything in large numbers will do fabulously in Apocalypse.

*Chosen:* This one some people will say they are not worth the extra points, but they are wrong. Whether they infiltrate or outflank, having a surprise squad with up to 5 special weapons will do some major damage. Another popular combo for an all comers list would be 5 men, 2-4 meltas, 1 flamer, (possibly Icon of Chaos Glory for the icon). They can be a tank gank squad and/or mess with some snipers (damn you pathfinders! :threaten: ). Also they can be in 8-10 size and outflank in a rhino built to actually survive a round or two with some combination or plasmas, flamers and meltas (probably not all three). Although a bunch of lightning claws may look fun, just use terminators, they do that better.

*Havocs:* As said before, the main reason people avoid these is the fact that every other HS choice (mainly Oblits) do the things that your chosen squad would have done. For example, 4 heavy bolters could be arguably covered by a dakka pred. Do to Obliterator weapons, troops that tank hunt is covered by these beasts. One possible option could be the same sort of combos you use for your chosen, but just make them slightly cheaper and start in your deployment, not too shabby for some non-cult troops.

_On the other hand,_ Predators, Vindicators or Defilers can be destroyed easily by a one shot, high strength weapon (railgun, lascannon, etc.). But those weapons would only kill one Havoc with the possible option for a cover save. Also a melta weapon, PF squad which would also normally explode one of these options would have a tougher time dealing with an entire squad of guys instead of a vehicle. For the opposite problem, a lot of low strength shots, would eventually take out a small packs of Obliterators. By taking some meat shield wounds first, you can stave off Instant Death or just regular death longer.

As for "popular" heavy weapon Havoc setups are 4 HB for max dakka; 2 ML and 2 Lascannons (or 4 ML or even 2 ML, 2 AC) for lowish point games where a few salvos of lascannons will take out all the vehicles and this squad will have to gun down infantry; Autocannons aren't too common since light vehicles aren't really a problem for most Chaos armies, Havocs or not, and using AC's on troops is almost overkill since the AP isn't enough to break power armor.

*Spawn:* I know you didn't say them, but it's because you can see why nobody outside of very fluffy lists ever mention them. Having no save at that high of a cost, and that statline will almost never, ever be worth it. I don't really have to explain why they aren't suggested.
_
On the other hand,_ while I am by no means suggesting you put them into a list, if you have a Tzeentch psycher (DP or Sorc) and you don't know what to take, having Gift of Chaos as your second power can be fun and destructive. Especially against T3 HQ's (although it can even take out a mighty C'tan), they will be sorry you got that close. A spawn or two in a squad of non-cc specialty units can possibly tie up that squad for the rest of the game or finish them off. Much like the Tomb Spyder, although the low WS may put you off, it's high T, S and W will make sure that they are a worry for opponent for a little bit. If they somehow manage to win combat, they have a surprising large assault range. With all of their weird counter-productive traits, they end up being able to assault between 4 and 24 inches in a turn. Unless your opponent is warned beforehand, they may be shocked at the range of these Mindless Beasts. 

*Dreadnoughts:* Merely because you don't have absolute control of the unit it can be a liability if used in a tournament. Turning its back at inopportune times, running out of cover into range of your enemies ranged weapons will, or shooting your own troops/vehicles if used inapporpriately, will make you lose this unit do to actions outside of your control. Although relatively inexpensive points wise, this ugly model will not really find it's way into competitive play.

_On the other hand,_ if GW ever gets on the ball and lets Chaos use Dreadclaw Assault Pods, then by all means this would be a great a wondrous addition to almost any list. Either Crazed result would add more destruction to befall your foe. But in the mean time, their added ranged or CC support would better be added elsewhere.

*Defilers:* Because of their considerable girth (and a lack of a true "base"), many people complain about this walker. In many competitive lists, that battlecannon may never fire if the Chaos player isn't going first. Next to DP's these are the units to receive the most shots early in the game to stop it from firing. Although it can Fleet, if that roll is low, then you didn't get to shoot the battlecannon and you are probably pretty close to an enemy unit (since you were try to assault it soon). Also, they will probably lose against most other dreads do to the lower initiative. (The only way to counter this of course is to force them to assault you through cover).

_On the other hand,_ it's got a fricken battlecannon! Plus that Reaper Autocannon can wreck some light vehicles since the twin-linking will almost insure that one shot always hits with the possibility to two! The other great possibility is to give it all extra CCW so that it can get a sick 6 DCCW on the charge! If you happen to have an extra razorback upgrade sprue and some spare points you can give the Defiler a twin-linked lascannon to increase your odds of a penetrating hit all that more. This option might be a bit too pricing for it's own good though, since you are losing a Reaper Autocannon for it, I feel 15-20 points might be a bit more reasonable. The other option could be to give it a twin-linked heavy bolter and a havoc launcher and just use it as a firing stand. If you do suffer a weapon destroyed, you can still shoot infantry with some level of pain.

As you can see, most things have a use, but maybe not the best for the competitiveness, predictability and risk of tournament play which is what most people are asking help with their list for. I hope this is what you wanted to hear.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

"In before thread move..."

DERP I thought I should put it here, but it seems I was doing it wrong. Sorry Mr. Moderator for the trouble. 

From what you've told me, it seems to me that:

Raptors: extremely shitty models (even though it can't be circumvented, it doesn't make the original models better than they are), other units can do the same better, too pricy both IRL and points-wise.

Possessed: pricy, unreliable, Zerkers are a better choice for their role; they have potential, but that doesn't mean that you'll roll the right thing on Daemonkin.

Bikers: pricy, but more useful than Possessed or Raptors.

Chosen: awesome, they don't get the respect and attention they deserve.

Havocs: the other Heavy Support choices are better than these guys, though there are some ways to make good use of them.

And big thanks for Mud213 for the other three and his great post, I forgot about those three guys; I don't remember if it was on purpose, though.  I guess it was because I already knew if they were good or bad.

Spawn: if you use Gift of Chaos, you should consider having one or two in your pocket, just in case you have the pleasure of turning the Nightbringer into a cow with fangs and wings. 

Dreads: I love them, so I'm biased.  But their Crazed rule is a pain in the ass, thats for sure.

Defilers: Pretty useful, though DPs have Eternal Warrior. It can be used as a firing stand, though, but given the other HS choices, its a nono. Though if Heavy Support is your only source of CC for you, then certainly go for it (I know Mud didn't say most of these, or at least not like this, but I wanted a whole picture).


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

People don't use chosen for the sole fact they run out of points buying oblits, zerks, and PMs.

I like them, four meltaguns in an infiltrating squad is a steal.

The other choices are bad because there are more point effective choices in the dex. It's like asking "Why don't we breath pure nitrogen sulfide?"
To me it just seems second nature to say "We'd most assuredly die." And I can't really fathom why it'd need further explaining.

You pay 26 points for a fabius bile marine with the mark of tzeentch, with no gun options, no CC weapons, no fists, no grenades, and a 1/6th chance to perform better, but still not score.(Possessed). If they were -better-(Choose the power, better statline AND CHEAPER) I'd take them seriously.

Spawn are awful. Look at that statline. My friends have a running joke regarding that a chaos spawn just hits people with a wave of dicks. Seeing that point-for-point you'll lose to tau, I'm disinclined to argue.

Bikes are bad because they are expensive.

Havocs are bad because we have obliterators, and these guys have all the problems of nillas with none of the benefit of chosen.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

In an ideal world, the codex would be internally (and externally) balanced. Each unit would be equally good and able to combine well with other units in several configurations. Unfortunately, codexes are written by human beings, and they aren't perfect.

I see a lot of posts asking why unit X is not used. They aren't used because there's something better. It's very rare that it's just a question of the community not figuring out how to use a unit, though that is sometimes part of the problem.

So for example, posessed vs zerkers. You take zerkers because they are just better, cheaper and score. Somebody may take posessed and do ok, but there's really nothing they can do that the zerkers can't. If somebody does well with them they would do better with zerkers.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The new take on the crazed rule killed any practical use of chaos dreads. Which is a shame since I have 3, one is even a forge world model.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Wow... Its so disappointing to hear that so many units in the CSM Codex are so useless, because what made me play the tabletop was DoW, and there the Possessed could slaughter nearly everything, only Grey Knights and epic units could destroy them (though they can hold for rather long against an Avatar of Khaine). Now, I've seen enough not to expect that not everything will be the same in the tabletop as in DoW, but I still had certain expectations; like, the unit wouldn't suck, it just wouldn't be as powerful as it is in the game. For example, the Possessed were awesome, whereas the Obliterators were only good. Here, the Possessed suck completely, and the Oblits are a must. Its so disappointing. The only reason the Possessed and the other gimped units managed to get into the Codex was probably that without them, the Codex would be barely as long as a comic book. Seriously, GW.

I'd argue with you saying that the Dread is useless, however; the rule says that it only applies when it is not engaged, so all you have to do is get some Icons, run toward the enemy, then DS your Dreads in. You'll have one turn at most when the rule might kick in, but you have 67% chance of maintaining control over the Dread. Its risky, I know, but its your best option to circumvent the Crazed rule. Or I'm completely wrong.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Khorothis said:


> Or I'm completely wrong.


Sadly, yes. Chaos dreads can't deep strike. You could try throwing one off a spaceship, but you probably wouldn't achieve the desired result without a drop pod or something.

That said, I don't hate chaos dreads. They are cheap, and that is a good thing. When they go wrong they shoot whatever's nearest so you can avoid a lot of problems by giving them a plasma cannon and putting a land raider near them. Plasma cannons are great when they work, but no threat to your LR.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Now that I think of it: why didn't anyone tell me "LOL noob Dreads dont DS" when I said it like a hundred times already? And just where have I read that they could? Or what made me assume that? Its funny when you have an idea and you can't tell where its from. Especially if its wrong.  Thanks for pointing it out, Someguy. Much appriciated.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Hmm. I feel like adding something, but what hasn't been covered already? I will say this much: I, for one, like Raptors and Havocs. A squad of five Raptors with two meltaguns, an IoK and a Champion with a pair of Lightning Claws can be a force to be reckoned with, particularly if there's sufficient terrain on the board that they can stay out of the larger firetraps. And as for Havocs, a squad of five with four MLs camping in cover can make life a pain in the ass for anything not AV14, while still maintaining the ability to penetrate MEQ armour (and get the instakill) or fire frag missiles when facing hordes, all for considerably fewer points than you'd pay for enough Obliterators to achieve the same thing in a given round. Am I wrong?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

8 havoc's all with missile launchers is a fun yet cheap unit if you have a lot of extra H slots open (Which some builds do).


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Its good to hear that missle launchers are useful. Every list I saw was prepared for AV14 Land Raiders and Monoliths, as if there were no AV14- tanks out there. BTW I can change the missle type whenever I want, right? I don't have to tell that "this squad has Krak, that squad has Frag", right?


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## Killaleon (Sep 7, 2009)

Id say Possessed Get a bad rap i mean Everyone just looks at them as a marine with str 5 and a 5+ invun and that the only daemonkin power worth it is power weapons. People also think that they are not worth the points but think like this Fearless str 5 and a 5+ invun is pretty nice and then 6 powers that are all good in there own way wether its making them either faster, tougher or obviously better in CC zerkers are probably better especially with troops being able to cap objectives although i think in a straight up fight the possessed could win. And model wise i think the possessed pwn the zerkers i mean seroiusly some poses with zerkers and the stupid running pose look awful

P.s Check my Possessed tactica here


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