# Anyone tired of the Istvaan Survivors?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Just wondering. I was reading _Angels Exterminatus_; and I must say, I was intrigued very much about the new fluff and stuff going one between the two important legions in the novel, until... we have a Raven Guard here... and an Iron Hand there, and a fucken Salamander here.

I'm just sick and tired of these survivors playing major parts in fluff. It defeats the purpose of their legions being totally anhilated. It just doesn't seem very possibly that they could confront what are legions and crawl out of it unscathed. 

I haven't finished the book but I must say, the parts that seem that make me take breaks are these stupid and impossible survivor scenes. I just go, here we go again. I think I'll take a good break before absorbing this bullshit.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I hate Angel Exterminatus for other reason; Graham McNeil forgetting to turn in his brain again, mainly. 

Yeah, it doesn't get much better, EC become shitter, IW are as thick as the shit that GM writes, and we have learned that GM has a hard on like the Tower of Pisa for the RG. Meanwhile the IH are still stupid, the whole deal with the healing/dying captain is left completely unfunished after half way through the book, we have some mad ass overly humanised IRon father who is apparently accepting that flesh is weak but is the most human out of them; and we have an Iron Hand who goes deaf who is able to fight against the Kakophani Praetor Vairosean without exploding, simply because hes deaf (meanwhile the other kakophoni are off busy exploding shit with their guitars and death metal roars/friday friday friday friday we so fun cos its a friday).

Yrah, I wish I could just forget Graham Mcneil, until I remember he wrote thousand sons and false gods, and the ambassador jovels, and then I look back at the rest of the tripe he has written and cry.


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## Wandering_Saint (Nov 6, 2012)

I have respect for anyone who can write a well-written space marine story.

It's a never-ending battle making a super-human based story engaging. Sometimes, you pull it off very well (I enjoyed the first HH book, mainly because it gave a human emotion to the Space Marines that you really didn't get in most fluff), and sometimes you fail horrendously (I'm looking at the Dark Angels one. It's so bad, I've purged it from my mind.)
Mostly, I just see it as a flaw in the script. Every space marine is basically tasked with doing something amazing whenever the camera is on them. Let's just be thankful we aren't seeing more Draigo clones.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I hope it gets better. I don't mind the primarchs and the two legions so far. But the survivors kind of remind me of the Garro series. And I'm sorry to the people who like it, but who cares.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

regarding the garro series, i care simply because im sure that through it, eventually we will simultaneously learn more about Malcador (his relation with the emperor and the two missing legions), the grey knights and of course Janus the first supreme grandmaster.

i really hope you are wrong about the IW in angel exterminatus Vaz, the whole reason i want to get that book is because i love them.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you like Storm of Iron Iron Warriors, you'll like the Angel Exterminatus Iron Warriors. They are monofaceted, with nothing unique about them apart from the Chaos Gifts, and their names or armour. Typical McNeil, really.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Perturabo is a lot different than you'd expect though. I like the fact the three betrayed legions are still playing a part, I never liked the idea they simply got wiped out or destroyed to the point they decided to simply not take part in the civil war any longer.

Edit: Sod it I didn't read the poll question out properly and chose know when I should of chose yes. I thought it said do you mind them having big roles. So it really should be 6 to 4 in favour of them being involved.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I am very surprised people like these characters. I feel it has taken away the seriousness of the novels. I mean's its a group of survivors creating major havoc on the legions. 

It seems like unnecessary made up fluff and I also feel like it has taken away their tragic sacrifice on Istvaan.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You'd rather that three legions totally get obliterated in one book and be never written about again? I like the fact they are fighting on, it makes sense, it makes sense that while they can't do major things, they can still get involved/get in the way of big things.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There is fighting in, and then theres "fuck me its ninjas". Angel Exterminatus pushed that to the limit.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Only with the Raven Guard, whose Primarch can become invisible to people.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You'd rather that three legions totally get obliterated in one book and be never written about again? I like the fact they are fighting on, it makes sense, it makes sense that while they can't do major things, they can still get involved/get in the way of big things.


Vaz hit it on the head. You can have survivors join the remaining legions and give them interesting parts. You can also have them disrupt imcompetent guard regiments that are traitor. This would have the contribute to the heresy without doing redicolous things that make legions appear imcompetent. How can we look at these legions without thinking how blatantly imcompetent these legions are. It's absolutely sickening.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was referring to the incompetence of the traitor legions. The heresy seems to be written for children. Horus is now the biggest dumb ass in 40k. A few survivors of istvaan are superior to legions and I was arguing a while ago that a legion could possibly be a bit stronger genetically than the rest.

If you think this ideas are fucking bullshit then what about some survivor that some how was able to go through defenses of two legions and shoot a primarch in the face? Does this sound like bullshit? They were able to appear on the damn planet unnoticed for crying outloud.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They are still Space Marines, just because there's more of the traitor legions doesn't make them any better or worse than those they crushed, which they only did because they turned on them and had the advantage of surprise. 

Two marines, one whose warfare is sabotage and infiltration were able to sneak up on the Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, because they didn't know they were there, they didn't expect them, they weren't exactly on their best guard sitting in a theatre they'd just made. 

The traitors feel like they are untouchable, that they are in control but they ain't they didn't realise or understand that the survivors would continue fighting because they are space marines.

The traitors are not incompetent, are they over confident, they are under estimating those they think they crushed. The Raven Guard, Iron Hands (who had an entire legion bar the first company and Primarch btw) and Salamanders should be doing sabotage attacks and interrupting the traitors legions, because they are still space marines and to do anything less would be a bit pathetic.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I for one quite like the survivors as primary characters. Without a set of characters that feature throughout, the series becomes simply a narrative rather than an actual story per se. Therefore, these characters would have to maintain an important role in the events of the Heresy else we'd lose interest in them. It's almost like having a ground level view of the events, where you can experience the emotion and action first-hand, rather than having it dictated from a third person perspective.

I suppose there could be more emphasis on the primarchs as primary characters rather than significant supporting ones, as we don't actually see as much of them as you'd expect in certain novels e.g. Legion, Descent of Angels etc. However, to write the novels from their perspectives would limit the reader in the interpretations they can draw from the primarchs that they could if they saw them through another character's perspective.

Without the Istvaan survivors I think the Heresy would be quite a dull series, as it's their personal conflicts and motives that add character to a plot that would otherwise not display much emotion, especially considering Astartes are the main bulk of the characters.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm just sick and tired of these survivors playing major parts in fluff. It defeats the purpose of their legions being totally anhilated. It just doesn't seem very possibly that they could confront what are legions and crawl out of it unscathed.


Just want to point out that the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders were never "totally annihilated" as a result of the Drop Site Massacre. The Raven Guard and their Primarch made it off world and worked to rebuild as per Ravens Flight/Deliverance Lost. The Iron Hands only had their Primarch and First Company planet side so the rest of their legion is still kicking around. The Legion that came closest to "total annihilation" was the Salamanders, as we still do not know what happened to Vulkan (beyond that he survived to see the end of the Heresy) and his survivors.

Beyond that I agree with spanner94ezekiel and Words_of_Truth


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Having them as documented; destroying wolf packs or frigate squadrons is more than fine. Having them sneak up on even just one Primarch (even one as retardedly written as fulgrim; let alone one specialising in static combat, and recognising the threat of a manouvreably superior force to his own forces as said RG commence commando raids) and then all but kill one with a needler (this being the same primarchs who can withstand being stabbed through the gut by another primarch, being hit in the face by a punch which can fell a dreadnought and survive getting hit by forgebreaker, which as we saw happening to berossus in Crimson Fist was not pretty).

Maybe I'm biased. I rate mcneil as poor a writer as Kyme and Hinks; hinks is a bit all over the place but still has a minorly coherent story, while kyme just types with his elbows. Mcneil just doesn't seem to get Warhammer. Only ones which don't have a precendent in the fluff; re Ambassador and Thousand Sons are actually any decent. An over-rated writer, by far. I suppose I am even mor biased against him after his constant plugs of his own work in his novels.

Compare Dan Abnetts including of the Iron Snakes and the use of the spear in Know No Fear; then look at all the Iron Warriors names in the Angel Exterminatus, and "The troublesome fourth" in his UM short (tales of heresy, I think it is in). I fully groaned when I saw "Honourable Soulaka". Anyhow; I look at his past heresy books; galaxy in flames he couldn't rrally diverge from, but from Fulgrim, Outcast Dead, Reflektion Crack'd, even Thousand Sons (certain moments of un-marineness). He isn't marmite; he is just fucking annoying.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Goddamn, i was so looking forward to my beloved iron warriors.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> Goddamn, i was so looking forward to my beloved iron warriors.


Don't fret, take all criticism with a grain of salt. There are books I have loathed others have loved and vice versa. Some people just don't like some writers style, for me it's Counter... Just can't get into his novels. I quite like McNeill. For someone to say "he doesn't get Warhammer" is a pretty broad statement.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> Don't fret, take all criticism with a grain of salt. There are books I have loathed others have loved and vice versa. Some people just don't like some writers style, for me it's Counter...


Not to derail things, but most of Counter's stuff seems very...magical? Like the psychic powers are closer to arcane rituals than psychic abilities?

Or is that just me? I can't really get into his books where everything object is somehow important in weird and unfathomable ways. Like how you're supposed to use items in those click adventure games?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That is actually one of my biggest bugbears In the Horus Heresy; every fallen Primarch has an object that leads or attributes to his fall: Butcher Nails, Laer Sword, Anathame, The Cabal.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> That is actually one of my biggest bugbears In the Horus Heresy; every fallen Primarch has an object that leads or attributes to his fall: Butcher Nails, Laer Sword, Anathame, The Cabal.


What about Kurze, Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus, and Lorgar?

And the Cabal isn't really an "object"--it's an organization. 

The only Primarchs to fall due to directly to an object were Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The poll gets me wondering, if people like the Istvaan survivors, especially in the new novel, that they enjoyed a legion novel in which the main legion looked like shit.

Am I wrong? I mean I don't see how you come out of this book saying the Iron Warriors are badasses.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I didn't think they looked bad, I think they looked more relatable and the Primarch had more dimensions to him than I thought before (just re-read KNF and even Guilliman says Perturabo has only one dimension) if anything they came out better than what I thought about them before. The Emperor's Children however plummeted even further in my opinions.


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

The Emperor's Children are just a bunch of good looking rich boys who got wet nursed till they were 21!!! 
they do my box in and really hope their next shit is a hedgehog


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I didn't think they looked bad, I think they looked more relatable and the Primarch had more dimensions to him than I thought before (just re-read KNF and even Guilliman says Perturabo has only one dimension) if anything they came out better than what I thought about them before. The Emperor's Children however plummeted even further in my opinions.


Quite the contrary. I think Perturabo cared about the legion more than the legion cared about itself. I think we see that when Perturabo demotes the previous warmsmith in favor of Kroegar. By this time we see the legion as not concerned about the lives of their men and constantly scheming against one another, which I feel is a bit extreme for its current settings. In _Storm of Iron,_
they were constantly scheming, but they did so using their predecessors to their fullest abilities so as not to interfere with the campaign. They are astartes for crying out loud. They are smart enough to know there are certain things to worry about before elevation. And I believe it was given justice throughout the Honsou series. 
I'll agree about Perturabo being written very well. But his legion was written terribly. This is what Iron Warrior fans have after years of rumors and waiting.

A lone Raven Guard pwning nubes. What the hell? Can you imagine a lone Iron Warrior sneaking behind Ultramarines and Blood Angel lines and shooting Guilliman in the head. Then running around killing Ultramarines here and Blood Angel there.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, a lone alpha legion successful took over the identify of one of the highest ranked marines in the Raven Guard, which is more believable? Kor Phaeron nearly soloed Guilliman, a regular human stabbed Alpharius/Omegon in the chest. I don't think it's one of the most unreasonable ideas that a marine whose legion focuses on stealth and sabotage could infiltrate a planet when no one knows to even expect him and then shoots a Primarch in the head, who possibly let it happen since fulgrim said "it only took me getting shot in the head to convince him" or something.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well, a lone alpha legion successful took over the identify of one of the highest ranked marines in the Raven Guard, which is more believable? Kor Phaeron nearly soloed Guilliman, a regular human stabbed Alpharius/Omegon in the chest. I don't think it's one of the most unreasonable ideas that a marine whose legion focuses on stealth and sabotage could infiltrate a planet when no one knows to even expect him and then shoots a Primarch in the head, who possibly let it happen since fulgrim said "it only took me getting shot in the head to convince him" or something.


Those are equally detestable, and yet I appear to have been the only one to be critical of those novels. 

Kor Phaeron to be fair has been in league with the Chaos powers more than any chaos marine excluding Magnus and Erebus. 

Raven's Flight was a complete bullshit story by the way. Gav Thorpe really presented a much of made up fluff contribution that would never have been imagined before it was made.

Another example would be _Oucast Dead_. We had a bunch of traitor astartes running around Terra and besting Custodians. 

However, this by FAR, crosses the line. It took away from the legion and primarch. 

I guess I'm one of few who see's a lost novel. People actually like this crap. I guess its safe to say that _Battle for the Abyss_ is also a 10/10 and one of the Herey's Greatest Hits.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Not just a Custodian, but a fully armed and armoured Custodian vs barely armoured and armed Astartes. That and a colossal screw up in the time line with Magnus arriving.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> a regular human stabbed Alpharius/Omegon in the chest.


Actually Chayne most likely stabbed Sheed Ranko, not either or the Primarchs.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Actually Chayne most likely stabbed Sheed Ranko, not either or the Primarchs.


And Chayne and the Lucifer Blacks weren't exactly Joe Schmoe Imperial Guardsmen either.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh of course, they were likely some of the most exceptional human soldiers within the entire Imperium at that point. But people still get annoyed that Chayne managed to would a primarch, even though, as I said, it was more than likely Sheed Ranko.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh of course, they were likely some of the most exceptional human soldiers within the entire Imperium at that point. But people still get annoyed that Chayne managed to would a primarch, even though, as I said, it was more than likely Sheed Ranko.


True enough, this hobby does breed some intense........devotion. If GW was a chaos god it would be insanely powerful at this point lol.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Too much of a _Battle for the Abyss_ scenario if you ask me. The _Outcast Dead,_ _Angel Exterminatus._ To much stereotypical crap and no character development.


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