# Siege of the imperial palace



## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Does anyone have any idea what the primarchs were doing at the siege?
Oh and by the way the greater demon that sanginius kills is the same 1 who breaks his legs and owns the blood angels.
I know that gullimun was away but wat about the others?


Thanks:grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

This is in the wrong section mate, this shouldn't be under battle reports!

But in answer to your question:

*Traitors:*

*Perturabo:* was over-seeing the siege itself. And when the palace was breached he withdrew.
*Magnus the Red:* Was present, no info on what he was up to, slaughtering imperials maybe?!
*Horus:* was aboard his Flag-ship; The Vengeful Spirit
*Fulgrim:* was butchering the civilans on Terra
*Angron:* was leading the World Eaters into the palace breaches.
*Mortarion:* was leading the Death Guard against the White Scars against an important Space Port
*Lorgar:* was present with a small contingent of Word Bearers

*Alpharius Omegon:* Were not present at the siege, all we know is that they were delaying the remaining loyal legions.
*Night Haunter:* Was not present at the siege, Went to the galactic east and began a campaign of genocide.

*Loyalists*

*Sanguinius:* Was present at the siege, defending the Eternity gate alone when no one else had the heart to fight on. (This is when he slain Ka'Bandha)
*Jaghatai Khan:* Was present leading the White Scars against the Death Guard, held the Spaceport.
*Rogal Dorn:* Was there, although im not aware of anything he did prior to teleporting onboard the Vengeful spirit.

*Vulkan:* No information on him being at the siege that im aware of, although his legion suffered heavily at Isstvan V.

*Leman Russ:* Was not present at the siege, during the Heresy they were tied up on Prospero, but headed for Terra following.
*Lion El'Jonson:* Was not present at the siege due to events on Caliban (he is speculated to have stalled on the way to Terra in order to see which side was winning)
*Ferrus Manus:* was killed on Isstvan V, so was obviously not present!
*Roboute Guilliman:* was not present due to the battle on Calth against the Word Bearers
*Corax:* his legion was decimated on Isstvan V, he retreated to his homeworld and tampered with the gene-seed to rebuild his legion faster (therefore commiting heresy) so wasn't present at the siege.


And yes the Bloodthirster your thinking of is known as Ka'bandha (The Lord of all Bloodthirsters) - He broke Sanguinius' legs during a trap set by Horus. Sanguinius broke the daemon over his knee at the Eternity gate during the siege.

But remember Daemons are only a fraction of their true power in the material universe.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

I know that it shouldnt be here but i cant change it some1 tell me how plz


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Lion El'Jonson:* Was not present at the siege due to events on Caliban (he is speculated to have stalled on the way to Terra in order to see which side was winning)


Seriously guys who keeps spreading this rumour? It's nothing but foul gossip and slander of our beloved primarchs name. 

Especially coming from you!! Bah Thousand Sons!! You are a fucking traitor anyway!! Who are you to question the Lions actions during the Horus Heresy?

Here!! I have something for you traitor dog.. it's called the Deathwing!!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Siege said:


> Seriously guys who keeps spreading this rumour? It's nothing but foul gossip and slander of our beloved primarchs name.
> 
> Especially coming from you!! Bah Thousand Sons!! You are a fucking traitor anyway!! Who are you to question the Lions actions during the Horus Heresy?
> 
> Here!! I have something for you traitor dog.. it's called the Deathwing!!


The Emperor was ignorant enough to ignore the Cyclops' warning, and unleash the wolves of Fenris upon Prospero, Sorry... who was betrayed?!

And have you read "Angels of Darkness"?

Check out this link.

A bit more than 'gossip' if you ask me  GW obviously wants us to question the Lions loyalty!

Edit: and yes as the post below says, even in the "descent of Angels" HH novel, The Lion seems to betray Luther (as i remember it anyway, havn't read it since its release!) the Upcoming novel "fallen angels" will presumably answer a lot of questions


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

" Seriously guys who keeps spreading this rumour? It's nothing but foul gossip and slander of our beloved primarchs name."

sorry mate but the Lion was stalling...I was a big fun of DA until I read descent of angels.
The Lion dissapointed me, and you know what they say: where is smoke there is also fire!


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Excusi moi? 

Could someone please give me a pointer to this fluff on this bloodthirster, personally I've never heard of it, is it in some novel?

Btw does anyone have any idea what the upcoming Heresy novel is about? Looks like a selection of short stories since there are so many authors.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

KarlFranz40k said:


> Excusi moi?
> 
> Could someone please give me a pointer to this fluff on this bloodthirster, personally I've never heard of it, is it in some novel?
> 
> Btw does anyone have any idea what the upcoming Heresy novel is about? Looks like a selection of short stories since there are so many authors.


Here is a link to the summary on the battle between Sanguinius/Ka'bandha: Link

The next HH book is "Tales of Heresy" which includes various Short stories from different legions.

The following one is "Fallen Angels" - the followup to "Descent of Angels"

And the One after that is "Prospero Burns" The tale of the Emperor back-stabbing the Thousand Sons  (or Horus manipulating the Wolves of Fenris to attack Magnus!)


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

i think the next HH books is a collection of stories.

as far as im concerned the Lion was a weakling and a traitor.

the only thing i know about the Angel owning that bloodthirster was that they fought in the air (purposely so everyone could see them) and Angel snapped him like a twig.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Moved to Fluff.


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

Vulkan wasn't at the siege. Same thing happened to the Salamanders as happened to the Raven Guard. Nearly wiped clear as of the Istvaan V Massacre. Don't remember any fluff as of yet that explains what the hell he was doing.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

No I havn't read any of those books but the fluff in Codex: Dark Angels doesn't seem to indicate any kind of stalling as far as I know. 



revenant13 said:


> as far as im concerned the Lion was a weakling and a traitor.


Well, he knocked Leman Russ out cold for a day or so. And everybody carries on about how tough Russ was. 

Weakling no, traitor, I very much doubt it. 

The Dark Angels were the first legion created by the great Emperor. Show some respect.

Blood Angels, c'mon you guys are practically mutants. I wouldn't start throwing stones if I were you.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Remember Siege, most fluff is often written from the viewpoint of the 'victor' or from the eyes of only one side. The story can be painted much differently from the perspective of the fallen. 

If I remember, wasn't Corax actually on Terra at the time of the siege; near death and healing mind you, but still technically present.

As for the Lion, I do believe the events on Caliban between the parts of his legion do not occur until after Horus is defeated.


Anyway, this thread isn't about knocking around the different founding loyalist legions; its about the known whereabouts of the eighteen primarchs. So whether it be friendly banter or something building up, do try to leave it for somewhere more relevant. (Very hard to hold back insulting the Dark Angels right now...)


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Remember Siege, most fluff is often written from the viewpoint of the 'victor' or from the eyes of only one side. The story can be painted much differently from the perspective of the fallen.
> 
> As for the Lion, I do believe the events on Caliban between the parts of his legion do not occur until after Horus is defeated.
> 
> (Very hard to hold back insulting the Dark Angels right now...)


I know but that's one of the many joys of winning is it not? Your side of the story goes down as history. 

And yes you are right, the betrayal of Caliban occurred after the defeat of Horus.

Please don't hold back, we would not be one of the most respected (and feared) chapters if we got all sensitive like a bunch of little girls, even if some of us may wear dresses.

I'm actually quite interested in all these theories and i would like to know more. The mystery surrounding the Dark Angels is one of the things that attracted me to them in the first place, and all these allegations (however unfounded they may or may not be) just add more to the legend.


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

Corax owns :biggrin:


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

i thought corax went back to Deliverence to build up his legion?

and keep in mind Russ let the Lion knock him flat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Siege said:


> No I havn't read any of those books but the fluff in Codex: Dark Angels doesn't seem to indicate any kind of stalling as far as I know.
> 
> Weakling no, traitor, I very much doubt it.
> 
> ...



This kind of fluff obviously isn't in the codex. Its portrayed in BL novels.

Just because their Legion numer 1 does that make them loyalist? of course not!

Its possible that as originally there were 9 loyalist legions, 9 traitor legions - The Alpha Legion are now speculated to be loyalist, the Dark Angels are suspected to be traitors, evening out the balance 




darkreever said:


> Remember Siege, most fluff is often written from the viewpoint of the 'victor' or from the eyes of only one side. The story can be painted much differently from the perspective of the fallen.
> 
> If I remember, wasn't Corax actually on Terra at the time of the siege; near death and healing mind you, but still technically present.
> 
> ...


From the Novel "Angels of Darkness" we know for definate that the Fallen see the events of the Heresy differently, some if not most seeing themselves as loyalists. This is entirely relavent, as it portrays the Lion as a traitor.

And no Corax wasn't on Terra, he was on Deliverance committing Heresy  (by tampering with the gene-seed!)

And yes the events on Caliban i believe did occur after Horus' death, which furthers the argument that the Lion was stalling and therefore a traitor! If he wasn't tied up dealing with Luther on Caliban (as it happened after the heresy) what was he doing?! - Stalling!! not helping the Emperor!


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## lomaxxdurang (Jun 24, 2008)

War!7H said:


> Corax owns :biggrin:


Damn Skippy

WTF why isnt there a raven guard symbol on the icon list?


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Siege said:


> The Dark Angels were the first legion created by the great Emperor. Show some respect.



Being the first at something does not automatically mean you are loyal, if fact being the first at something has a precident for you being a traitor. HOrus was the first primarch found, need I say any more?:biggrin:


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And yes the events on Caliban i believe did occur after Horus' death, which furthers the argument that the Lion was stalling and therefore a traitor! If he wasn't tied up dealing with Luther on Caliban (as it happened after the heresy) what was he doing?! - Stalling!! not helping the Emperor!


The Dark Angels were fighting somewhere on the Eastern Fringe when they got word of the Heresy. They set course for Terra almost immediately but their ships were bombarded by Daemon assaults and I believe the Night Lords chapter was even sent to intercept them. 

I'm pretty sure Leman Russ and the Space Wolves faced a similar situation and they arrived on Terra about the same time as the Dark Angels. Nobody ever accuses Russ of stalling?


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

No one accused Russ of stalling because the situation was totally different. It was been suggested that he could have got back in time to aid the Emp but didn't because he was possibly stalling. Russ was definately to far away to aid the Emp in time


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Siege said:


> The Dark Angels were fighting somewhere on the Eastern Fringe when they got word of the Heresy. They set course for Terra almost immediately but their ships were bombarded by Daemon assaults and I believe the Night Lords chapter was even sent to intercept them.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Leman Russ and the Space Wolves faced a similar situation and they arrived on Terra about the same time as the Dark Angels. Nobody ever accuses Russ of stalling?


Don't know where you got that fluff about the Angels fighting on the Eastern Fringe from. Whats your source?

No one accuses Russ of stalling because he simply wasn't! I just checked in "Horus Heresy: Collected Visions" and following the Battle for Prospero Russ was ambushed by the Alpha Legion, stalling them. The White Scars were also present and were ambushed by Alpharius Omegon but Dorn ordered Khan to abandon Russ and retreat to Terra. The Space Wolves legion was crippled by the Alpha Legion, before they broke off and attempted to make it to Terra.

(and by-the-way The Night Lords were a legion not a chapter )


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Don't know where you got that fluff about the Angels fighting on the Eastern Fringe from. Whats your source?


Codex: Dark Angels. Apparently they were fighting on the Shield Worlds, I thought that was on the Eastern Fringe? 

"Then came the terrible days of the Horus Heresy. As the Emperor fought Warmaster Horus at Terra, Jonson was fighting for humanity on the distant Shield Worlds, along side Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves Legion. When word reached Jonson and Russ of the titanic battle being fought at Terra, the two generals marshalled their forces and set course for Terra will all haste."

It seems that the fluff in the codices and the fluff in the Black Library books is very different.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Siege said:


> Codex: Dark Angels. Apparently they were fighting on the Shield Worlds, I thought that was on the Eastern Fringe?
> 
> "Then came the terrible days of the Horus Heresy. As the Emperor fought Warmaster Horus at Terra, Jonson was fighting for humanity on the distant Shield Worlds, along side Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves Legion. When word reached Jonson and Russ of the titanic battle being fought at Terra, the two generals marshalled their forces and set course for Terra will all haste."
> 
> It seems that the fluff in the codices and the fluff in the Black Library books is very different.


So it would seem. But i think the Black Library books are correct here. How would Russ be in the Eastern Fringe when he had just finished the Siege of Prospero? Prospero is in Segmentum Solar so is almost the entire galaxys width away from the Eastern Fringes! The closest legion to Russ was the White Scars. 

Were talking about 3rd edition Codex Dark Angels by the way? i guess a lot of fluff has changed since 3rd ed


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

lomaxxdurang said:


> Damn Skippy
> 
> WTF why isnt there a raven guard symbol on the icon list?


IKR! How awesome would that be :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## krusty (Jun 16, 2008)

In th white dwarf when the giants of albion were released wasnt the dark angels and space wolves after linking up and heading back to terra after some siege were some traitor called russ the emperors puppy and wanted to lead the attack but the lion had it planne dout already and broke through the defences and killed the traitor (was also when they had their fight,Russ hit the lion first,realised what he did,laughed seeing the funny side and then the lion knocked him out) . They got held up on some ice world by daemons,rescued some adept mechanicus (first iron wolves) and when horus heard the two legions would be at terra it made him to make the decision to drop the shields to try and take out the emperor. Will try and find the issue to add the rest of the names


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

you know that dark angels crap is all bull shit. The Lion was too busy trying to kill all the "loyal" dark angels in his chapter. The Smartest Primarch got intercepted and beaten by weaker individuals.... okay really. hahahaha. There was no other priority than the survival of Terra and the center point of humanity. It doesn't take a genius to know that. Lion el Johnson was seeing the outcome of that battle. Theres no way the Great know it all could not see that Terra was at the brink of destruction.

Heres a fact and its plain as simple. The Great Know it all is the most brilliant primarch! AND! If the Horus shields had not gone down... The emperor and his empire would have been obliterated into little tinny pieces!!! Dark Angels come down after the whole thing... "yah we were... intercepted.... we needed to help out the less important worlds!" excuse excuse excuse


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> If the Horus shields had not gone down... The emperor and his empire would have been obliterated into little tinny pieces!!! excuse excuse


Not sure that's what would have happened to be honest, it was my understanding that Horus only dropped the shields in an attempt to end the battle quickly by defeating the Emperor because the remaining loyalist legions were close to arriving in the system


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

thelastonestanding said:


> It was my understanding that Horus only dropped the shields in an attempt to end the battle quickly by defeating the Emperor because the remaining loyalist legions were close to arriving in the system


Thats what some sources say - others claim it was because he wished to better witness the destruction of the Imperium. 

There is loads more theories and speculation, my favourite being that it was the work of the Alpha Legion :good:

I guess we wont find out until the HH series reaches that point!


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## Baradur (Aug 14, 2008)

Just to clear up something that was said at the start.
The Space Wolves did not betray the Thousand Sons, the original transmittion to the Wolves about the Thousand Sons was to go to Prospero, and bring Magnus back to Terra, to answer to the Emperor.
Horus intercepted this transmittion and instead took advantage of the Wolves dis-like for psykers, and ordered him to attack and kill the Thousand Sons.
Just as all the Primarchs and legions did, they followed the commands of the Warmaster, no-one could have changed what happened.
Also, Horus was sending all loyalist forces outwards, away from Terra, I didn't really understand why the Space Wolves didn't make it back in time to help until I heard about this Alpha legion ambush, wheres the source for that anyone?
As for the Lion and the Wolf story, I don't think its meant to be taking place during the assult on Terra, admittably the Lion ko'ed Russ, but only because he realised how stupid the little battle was. Quite an epic sight it would have been though. =]


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

Could I ask, is Black Library canon?


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes it is.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

You know, a few years ago most people did not consider black library novels canon; and some still do not. (And rightly so, because some of the novels have contradicting fluff, and nitpicking which book is canon and which is not is not really possible or fair.)


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what some sources say - others claim it was because he wished to better witness the destruction of the Imperium.
> 
> There is loads more theories and speculation, my favourite being that it was the work of the Alpha Legion
> 
> I guess we wont find out until the HH series reaches that point!


It is still the most consistent and best detailed account of the Siege of Terra. I wouldn't expect any changes or surprises in the upcoming HH novel.

White Dwarf #161, reprinted in White Dwarf #268:



Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded. 

A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed. 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship. It was an invitation and a personal challenge that he knew the Emperor could not resist. He was being offered a chance finally to smite the foe who had harried him for so long.


Index Astartes - Black Legion:



History records that on the 55th day of the battle, overwhelming Imperial reinforcements approached. In a bid to slay the Emperor before it was to late, Horus lowered the shields around his battle barge, daring his creator to teleport on board.


Horus Heresy - Collected Visions:



Erebus of the Word Bearers reported to Horus that their warp-based allies had espied a number of loyal fleets heading for Terra. The Space Wolves fleet of Leman Russ had somehow evaded the Alpha Legion of Alpharius and had set course for Earth. Likewise, a huge loyal fleet had departed from Ultramar carrying the apparently victorious Ultramarines Legion. Horus's daemonic allies said that they were but scant hours from reaching the Solar system. Furthermore, the Dark Angels of Lion El'Jonson were also Earth-bound, though the daemons couldn't say when they would arrive.
[...]
Horus was the first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final gambit. He could still kill the Emperor He immediately ordered all comm-net communications to be blocked so that the defenders on Terra could receive no wold from their rescuers.
[...]
"Maloghurst, if I cannot get the Emperor through the walls of his Palace-fortress I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all the Shields!"


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baradur said:


> Just to clear up something that was said at the start.
> The Space Wolves did not betray the Thousand Sons, the original transmittion to the Wolves about the Thousand Sons was to go to Prospero, and bring Magnus back to Terra, to answer to the Emperor.
> Horus intercepted this transmittion and instead took advantage of the Wolves dis-like for psykers, and ordered him to attack and kill the Thousand Sons.
> Just as all the Primarchs and legions did, they followed the commands of the Warmaster, no-one could have changed what happened.
> ...


The Alpha Legion ambushing the Space Wolves is told in "Horus Heresy: Collected Visions"

And also that idea that Horus fooled Russ into actually assaulting Prospero instead of just capturing Magnus is now generally accepted, However one thing which is not explained is that Valdor and a contingent of Adeptus Custodes were with the Space Wolves. So why did they disobey the Emperor and actually assault Prospero?

The Adeptus Custodes only take orders off the Emperor, no other authority (including Horus) have authority over them. This is what is fishy! i mean surely Valdor would have stayed true to the Emperors orders rather than Horus'. I guess we'll find out in "Prospero Burns" at the end of this year. :good:


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

The Black Library contradicts fluff only because many of the books are written with certain a point of view in mind. Opinions are always bound to contradict or disagree with each other.


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