# Valejjo/Citadel/P3



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Hey guys I was looking around online at these paint ranges and apart from price, which one would be most useful between Vallejo, Privateerpress' P3 formula and Citadel. Personally I would go for citadel because most paint guides use them and they are the ones which I have always used, even though I haven't really tried the new ones. But Vallejo have dropper pots which is better for mixing and P3 just look nice and have a higher pigment ratio (well higher than the old citadel, I don't know about the new ones)

Any help would be much appreciated 
thanks


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

At my level of painting, which I'll be the first to point out isn't that high, I think the Citadel best match my needs.

Vallejo is hard to get for me and is a lot thinner than Citadels so although the Citadels cost more, when you thin them to equal consistency you actually get more volume. The dropper bottles are good but I use a syringe with the Citadel pots when I do mixing.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I actually do not like the dropper bottles. I think they are a great idea, but they tend to block up with paint over time. The range of colours from GW is now pretty big, so compares well with the Vallejo range and the GW metalics arethe best I have used. 

Dont know about the P3 paints as I have never used them.

Personally I have stuck with GW just because of thier availability, except for a few specific colours from Vallejo such as smokey ink which I have to get online.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Reaper Master Series is actually the best thing on the market. It's identical to Vallejo in terms of packaging and quality, but actually comes in a much wider range of colors. They're formulated in triads, as well, so you've got a base, a shade, and a highlight pre-mixed and ready to go. The whole range mixes with other parts of the range pretty seamlessly. It also mixes better with other ranges, I've found... Reaper puts a flow improver (kind of like GW's new Lahmian Medium) in their paints, which makes them thin more easily, and probably contributes to how well they mix with other paint. And it's a bit cheaper since Vallejo (like Citadel) charges you for their name. RMS is like $2.75 a bottle... Vallejo is $3.25, and Citadel is $3.25 (and going up to $4.25 in June.) 

Citadel's paint...even their new stuff... is probably the worst on the market. I think the new stuff is usable, though-- it's at least a competitive product now. I use the washes extensively, and I really like the new glazes. But beyond that, there's not a lot that they make that's worth buying, in my opinion. 

P3 makes a VERY solid product. However, it's packaged even worse than GW's pots... P3 pots -will- destroy your brushes. Reaper and Vallejo are slightly better paints anyway, and they're packaged better. The one star in P3's range is their inks-- I use Reaper's inks, but I have P3's also. The P3 inks are packaged in eyedroppers, and come in a wide range of colors. The difference between an ink and a wash is going to be semantics until you're painting at a very high level, though-- I think for general painting, you can skip over considerations of inks altogether in favor of washes. The real difference has to do with surface tensions and the medium they're in-- inks are...well, inks. They're in a gloss medium, and they flow very differently. Washes are basically a pre-mixed 80% acrylic matte medium and 20% paint-- buying washes as opposed to mixing them yourself ensures your washes are always a consistent color and consistent consistency. Kind of a mouthful, eh? 

The eyedroppers are a must. Yes, they do get clogged sometimes, but it's nothing that a sewing needle doesn't fix. The thing about eyedroppers is that it's an airtight environment, so the paint doesn't dry out sitting on the shelf. Pots contain trapped air. I've got Reaper Master Series stuff that's probably eight years old now and is as good now as they day I bought it. 

To answer your other question in the other thread-- As far as I can tell, 'Eavy Metal Medium is identical to the new Lahmian Medium. And it's great. I've always sworn by using an acrylic medium rather than water to thin my paints-- it's how I get smooth whites, in particular. It doesn't dilute the pigment, but makes it flow better-- water will dilute the pigment. Acrylic medium (such as the 'Eavy Metal/Lahmian medium) is a must for blending-- it's so much better than using water it's not even funny.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Well thanks for that I'm certainly gonna have a look at the inks and Reaper paints, also it Vallejo and Citadel that are increasing their price or is it just citadel. ALso what is the difference beteen the Reaper MSP HD and the Reaper MSP Core


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## ArchangelPaladin (Jul 7, 2010)

I’m going to drop citadel paints also. The color matching for the new paints is so off I can’t believe that gw green light the release. Blues, Reds, Greens, and Yellows are so off; Yriel Yellow specifically angers me it’s way to bright to be anywhere near golden yellow, I did a test ork with the new paints and hid it in a mob of older boyz and played “one of this things is not like the other” with a few people and they all picked out the newly painted ork in very little time.

@Son of Horus What’s the difference between reaper core and hd? Also how close is the corlor matching with the old gw paints? 
I’m a novice painter, techniques like layering are a little bit beyond me, so I’m looking for a paint range that has excellent opaque coverage, like one coat to completely cover black. I’m guessing that because the hd paints have higher pigment counts that might be what I’m looking for, and also because the range is practically color matched to the old citadel paints I’m really considering getting a few bottles. One the other hand the description for the core paints says those paints require less thinning for layering, washes, ect, which makes me think those are less opaque, more transparent, and not as good coverage, which makes me less excited about reaper paints.


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## refractory (Sep 15, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Reaper Master Series is actually the best thing on the market. It's identical to Vallejo in terms of packaging and quality, but actually comes in a much wider range of colors. They're formulated in triads, as well, so you've got a base, a shade, and a highlight pre-mixed and ready to go. The whole range mixes with other parts of the range pretty seamlessly. It also mixes better with other ranges, I've found... Reaper puts a flow improver (kind of like GW's new Lahmian Medium) in their paints, which makes them thin more easily, and probably contributes to how well they mix with other paint. And it's a bit cheaper since Vallejo (like Citadel) charges you for their name. RMS is like $2.75 a bottle... Vallejo is $3.25, and Citadel is $3.25 (and going up to $4.25 in June.)


i disagree with this statement, so ill add my opinion.

just to add, don't believe everything you hear/read. vallejo has about 4 times the colors of any paint on the market, its the highest quality IMO, and comes in several different types. as far as i know P3 is the only paint with a higher pigment ratio, and i cant confirm that. at my shop reaper is $3.29, same as their site, and vallejo is $2.99, citidel is $3.70. the largest problem with vallejo is getting it from distributors, as no one seams to have the full line in stock at all times. if you start useing vallejo, it'll be hard to go back; but i will warn you that it's not for everyone, and some people just cant seam to switch. 

since i switched to vallejo paints, my painting has improved ten fold, and the paint it self looks so much more vivid in natural light. 

food for thought, vallejo was the original GW paint.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Reaper Master Series has a much wider range of colors than Vallejo Game Color. If you factor in Vallejo Model Color, then Vallejo does have more. However, Vallejo Model Color is almost entirely various shades of browns, greens, and greys. 

The difference between the regular Reaper Master Series colors and the HD paints is that the HD paints have a heavier pigment in them that stays fairly consistent as you thin it. They're designed for airbrushing, but you can use them like regular paint, too. 

I've always been able to find something pretty close in the Reaper range to anything GW made (I say made as opposed to makes, because I honestly haven't looked at their new stuff that closely and can't make an honest comparison as far as color matching goes.). 

Anyway, if you live in the US, Vallejo is a pain to get-- it's absolutely true that Vallejo is 2.99 a bottle online, but that's usually what the distributor charges your FLGS, so you tend to pay more like 3.50 a bottle or so. And like I said, it's basically the same as Reaper Master Series-- it's certainly not any better. Just a different label on the bottle. 

Generally speaking, Reaper Master Series paints apply more smoothly, and in some cases in fewer layers than the GW equivalent. It absolutely responds better to being thinned with either water or acrylic medium than GW paints do, as well-- which is why it's better for layering and blending.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah I tried out the new equivilant of boltgun metla (leadbelcher) which is now a base, in theory it should be a smooth finish, and it was horrible, its really grainy and lumpy aven after thinning, however I do like the dry compounds, they are useful as hell, but yeah I will probably order a couple from all the ranges to test them out, however some of them may be hard to get like Reaper and P3 cus they are shipped from the US


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm not happy with Leadbelcher either, too grainy, although not lumpy as falcoso describes it.

Midnight


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## refractory (Sep 15, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Reaper Master Series has a much wider range of colors than Vallejo Game Color. If you factor in Vallejo Model Color, then Vallejo does have more. However, Vallejo Model Color is almost entirely various shades of browns, greens, and greys.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if you live in the US, Vallejo is a pain to get-- it's absolutely true that Vallejo is 2.99 a bottle online, but that's usually what the distributor charges your FLGS, so you tend to pay more like 3.50 a bottle or so. And like I said, it's basically the same as Reaper Master Series-- it's certainly not any better. Just a different label on the bottle.
> ...



your right, in just game color vallejo has less colors, i just included all of their lines due to my use of them for other games as well. (the only paints you should buy if you play FOW)

our shop carries all three major lines, (gw, vallejo, reaper) but i have never had any success with the reaper stuff in my store, reading what you think of it may convince me to order some to see if its the age of whats on the shelf. 

also have you tried vallejos primers?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I use the Vallejo Primer which is very good, I used to use the Tamiya primer but the clean up with it is a pain and it does leave a texture so not so good for small mini's


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> I'm not happy with Leadbelcher either, too grainy, although not lumpy as falcoso describes it.


However in theory it is meant to work better with spray guns (pffft hah) sorry couldn't keep a straight face typing that, I doubt it. With the lumpy I found that there was a bit of dried paint in the mix on my pallette so forget the lumpy


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I have always heard bad things about p3 paints, so would never touch them
Vallejo I have tried, and I really really dislike them, I found the cover to be awful, and really dislike the pots, always clogged, wasted paint, not a fan.
Gw I know, but no longer use due to price, have not tried the new stuff, but it was average back when I used it but I phased all mine out except washes.

MP paints i have used allot and really like them, the yellow, orange and reds ain't great though, and the screw tops clog easy and get stuck, but I really like them allot.

I really wanna try foundry now, they look amazing, and everyone here seems to be switching to them with no complaints.


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