# Long Fangs - Why 2 LC and 3 HB?



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hey everyone,

So I've been using the 2 LC and 3 HB in my long fang squads and I was thinking about it today - why? I think I did simply because I saw it popping up online everywhere. Sure, you can split fire and it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of either and I understand that the HB's are just wounds to be removed first buuuut....

Why wouldn't you just take 5 missile launchers? We basically have the same horde control and missiles are still great for blowing stuff up! Heck, it even comes in at 15 points cheaper.

Looking a bit closer:

2 LC 3 HB
Pros:
Great Horde Control (3 HB's enough to make most horde units dwindle quickly)
str 9 (sure, str 9 is nice. It puts LR within penetrating range... that being said is it 15 points nicer? Besides, I don't really bother to shoot LR with LC, I have meltas)
ap 2 (To me, this is pretty much useless... if it isn't ap 1 then I don't think ti matters against vehicles. Sure it helps against infantry, but who points LC at infantry, especially when they probably have a 4+ cover save?)

Cons:
Pricey
Forced to split fire
different ranges

Pros:
5 Missile Launchers
str 8 (Still pretty decent IMO, still able to pop rhinos and other transports)
2 modes of fire (still anti horde, IF YOU NEED)
cheaper (squad comes to 15 points cheaper)
48" range all around (No 36" HB)

Cons:
not str 9
not ap 2


To me, it seems that the missile launchers can do nearly the same for much less... For high armour stuff, SW have more than enough ways to take meltas that they don't need to take LC.

I'll try it out this weekend and report.


What are your thoughts?


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

LC's I find are great for killing those MC heavy armies, yes so are Missle Launchers but most of the MC's I face are T8 or 9, meaning an LC will wound T8 on 3+ and wound T9 on 4+, a Missle Launcher wounds T8 on 4+ and T9 on 5+, hence the lascannon will be superior in these circumstances and with a new Nids codex on the way I think you'll be needing it, why not for a thought go 3 ML's and 2 LC's this would works wonders against Mechanised lists such as Eldar, IG, SM, CSM and DE and will actually be able to go through a NEC Monolith for once and actually penetrate it (on a decent roll) If you have 2 of these squads you still have that long range and the anti horde if you need it as the ML can switch fire and with 2 squads you'd still have 6 small blast templates with 4 tank hunter guns - with the split fire rule it works really well to destroy the heavy support that is covering the advancing troops, especially in an IG army.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

5 MLs is my favorite configuration. (Actually, throw in a Cyclone Terminator too)

Missile launchers are about the best heavy weapon option for infantry in my mind.
They can be anti-troop and anti-tank and they come dirty cheap. 

Against MEqs, firing a volley of Krak missiles is far more effective than an equal amount of HB-equipped models. The HB tends to be most effective against Eldar, Tau and Guard, where they wound easily and ignore armor, but they max out at three kills, more like two since you've got to make all those to-hit rolls.

Meanwhile, Frags can still do a fair amount of damage against them and have the advantage of not having to make a ton of to-hit rolls. Sure, scatter can suck, but with marine BS it's not as bad as it could be. They have the potential to get a lot more hits in and still wound T3 pretty easily. They don't ignore their saves, but except Tau and most of eldar, those are kind of shitty saves they likely won't make. 

Against tanks, they're not as good as lascannon against AV14, but if you're getting five (or 7, potentially) shots in instead of 2, you could end up better off. And not all tanks are AV14 all over. People tend to select their antitank as if they only ever see Monoliths and Land Raiders on the field. You should have something that can hurt them if you can but for most intents and purpose a few meltaguns and a handfiull of powerfist attacks will do the job. Especially SW with their access to flleet, 12" charging A5 S10 powerfists

Remember numbers costs too.
A lascannon may be objectively better against big things, but between cost and giving up weapon slots to HBs for the sake of utility, you're going to have *more* missile launchers than lascannons. Which would you rather have when facing an MC? 5 krak missiles, or two lascannons?


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## SKITTLESKITTEN (Feb 12, 2008)

u spacewolves freaks are just trying to avoid technology and imperial doctrine, damn dirty hippys and your MLs


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Galahad said:


> 5 MLs is my favorite configuration. (Actually, throw in a Cyclone Terminator too)
> 
> Missile launchers are about the best heavy weapon option for infantry in my mind.
> They can be anti-troop and anti-tank and they come dirty cheap.
> ...


Gal is exactly right. The missile launcher for SW is a bargain for all the utility it supplies. I think 5 is the way to go, considering how cheap it is and what it has the potential of doing. Imagine 3 squads of LF with 5 missile launchers each. Thats 15 missiles able to target 6 different units... given first turn and coupled with things like living lightning and such, I can't see many rhinos left on the table.



Blue Liger said:


> LC's I find are great for killing those MC heavy armies, yes so are Missle Launchers but most of the MC's I face are T8 or 9, meaning an LC will wound T8 on 3+ and wound T9 on 4+, a Missle Launcher wounds T8 on 4+ and T9 on 5+, hence the lascannon will be superior in these circumstances and with a new Nids codex on the way I think you'll be needing it, why not for a thought go 3 ML's and 2 LC's this would works wonders against Mechanised lists such as Eldar, IG, SM, CSM and DE and will actually be able to go through a NEC Monolith for once and actually penetrate it (on a decent roll) If you have 2 of these squads you still have that long range and the anti horde if you need it as the ML can switch fire and with 2 squads you'd still have 6 small blast templates with 4 tank hunter guns - with the split fire rule it works really well to destroy the heavy support that is covering the advancing troops, especially in an IG army.


T8 and up are VERY few and far between. As far as I know its just wraithlords and C'tan.... in which AP3 is good enough to ignore armour (or they just have an invulnerable save. Which would you rather have for the same point cost... 5 ML or 2 LC? The ML will still do a shittone of damage while still being able to put the hurt out on hordes and MEQ's... In my list, I could have 15 ML or 6 LC - I'm going for the 15 ML - goodbye mech lists.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> Gal is exactly right. The missile launcher for SW is a bargain for all the utility it supplies. I think 5 is the way to go, considering how cheap it is and what it has the potential of doing. Imagine 3 squads of LF with 5 missile launchers each. Thats 15 missiles able to target 6 different units... given first turn and coupled with things like living lightning and such, I can't see many rhinos left on the table.


:shok: Wow, I just realized........15 Missiles, 6 different targets, and not only could not many rhinos be left on the table, but if your opponent doesnt have transports or that is 15 small pie plates as well if you choose to.

I might just get Space Wolves just to be able to do that or at least Traitor Long Fangs maybe XD


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## marlow (Jul 18, 2008)

My view is to take 4x Missiles & 1 Lascannon to make best use of Fire Control. If I needed to save a few points I would go with five Missiles. Like Galahad said Missiles are just so much more versitile than Heavy Bolters they are the best default choice and I would not skimp on them to get more Lascannons.


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

You want brutal go for 3x 5 ML Long Fangs, then attach a CML to each. 21 Missile wherever you want a turn?

Yes plz.


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

lol 6 of those guys with 5 ML costs just 140 points?? And they can target different targets....

sorry this sounds a bit odd. Compared to havocs. 6 havocs with just 4 ML costs 170 without the possibility for targeting different targets. Or do they have to pay extra points for this ability?
But even without this ability its way to cheap!


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sqwerlpunk said:


> You want brutal go for 3x 5 ML Long Fangs, then attach a CML to each. 21 Missile wherever you want a turn?
> 
> Yes plz.


Only problem with that is you need 3x5+ strong WG squads to get 3 cyclones, but if you're running with Grimmy that could happen easily.

4xML 1xLC isn;t a bad configuration if you have the extra points. 

You could also grab a TLLC razor just entirely for a fire support mini-tank. Half the cost of an Anni pred and doesn't take an FOC slot. Granted, it;s AV11, but if you've got the points.

6 man 5x ML LF with a TLLC Razor is 215 points.
10 man 4x ML Devastators by themselves are 230 points.

So you're *saving* 15 points, and gaining a 5th missile launcher and a TLLC Razorback. Splitting fire is a moot point since you can Combat Squad with ten men for the same effect.

The devs are a heartier unit, but jesus 4 MLs vs 5 MLs and a TLLC for *less*


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

Galahad said:


> 6 man 5x ML LF with a TLLC Razor is 215 points.
> 10 man 4x ML Devastators by themselves are 230 points.
> 
> So you're *saving* 15 points, and gaining a 5th missile launcher and a TLLC Razorback. Splitting fire is a moot point since you can Combat Squad with ten men for the same effect.
> ...


And compared to chaos havocs which you can not combat squad, its even worse... and of course no razorback....


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

b.anthracis said:


> And compared to chaos havocs which you can not combat squad, its even worse... and of course no razorback....


Yeah but you have obliterators, why are you looking at havocs?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

IMO, the best use for havocs is 4x meltaguns in a rhino


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

my pessimistic buddy kept going on about how ML suck and that LCs would be better, buuut the fact is, I find MLs so much more tasteful until your going full out with 5 LCs in 1 squad


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah, but for the cost of 1 5x LC squad you can almost buy two 5x ML squads.

LCs may be nice against armor, but I don;t think they;re twice as good...and I know they sure as heck aren;t twice as good against anything other than high AV tanks


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## marlow (Jul 18, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Yeah, but for the cost of 1 5x LC squad you can almost buy two 5x ML squads.
> 
> LCs may be nice against armor, but I don;t think they;re twice as good...and I know they sure as heck aren;t twice as good against anything other than high AV tanks


That is a bit of an exageration. You could buy two squads with 7 Missile between them for slightly less than one 5x LC Squad.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I don't think lascannon squads are a good option but a few lascannons probably are, somewhere. People do field obliterators last time I checked, and they don't appreciate being lascannoned. A lascannon continues to be a good way to get penetrating hits on vehicles, and considerably better than missile launchers for this.

I'm not sure about the heavy bolter/lascannon team. It's certainly pretty interesting but not a no-brainer. Missile launchers are way better than heavy bolters and take away problem units like nobz bikers and monstrous critters far more effectively. I can see a case for something like 3 missiles and 2 lascannons.

If I was going to field a heavy bolter team, which is not impossible, then I'd probably want to field 5 heavy bolters. That way I could put enough wounds on targets to force saves by squad leaders and special weapons, which would be valuable. I could use the fire-splitting option just to shoot up two different targets if needed.

Another option is to take missile squads and lascannon razorbacks (either twin las or las/plas). I think that's probably a really strong option on the whole. You get to plaster multiple targets with missiles and zap tough stuff.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Galahad said:


> IMO, the best use for havocs is 4x meltaguns in a rhino


Again, why have them, when you can have Chosen, and still field 9 Oblits.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Someguy said:


> Another option is to take missile squads and lascannon razorbacks (either twin las or las/plas). I think that's probably a really strong option on the whole. You get to plaster multiple targets with missiles and zap tough stuff.


That's somehting I mentioned. 5 missiles and a las razor is still cheaper than a 10 man missile dev team and brings a lot more fire to the field.

Which do you prefer though? TLLC or Las/Plas?
I'm more fond of the TLLC. You don't lose firepower for moving, and the weapon that matters most is much more accurate.



Vaz said:


> Again, why have them, when you can have Chosen, and still field 9 Oblits.


I never said it was the best use of an FOC slot, just the best use for that squad


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

The comparisons between longfangs and other devastator type squads isn't really fair- when was the last time you saw a competative army with devastator/havoc squad? These squads are overcosted in 5th, and the comparative cheapness of the longfangs reflects that.

Chalk me up as another supporter of the 5 x ML setup. You have plenty of fists/meltas for dealing with lascannon specific targets.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Galahad said:


> I never said it was the best use of an FOC slot, just the best use for that squad


Bah. He's a tricky one. You can tell he knows his rules, because he always has a slimy comeback based on word switching =(


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

Put me in the 2 Las, 3ML camp. If I can afford it I'll add the Razor with TLLC as well. That's up to three targets you can chase per turn.

Why Las over ML for 2 of the slots? Well you do see Monoliths and Land Raiders and I think we are going to see a lot of Leman Russ tanks. Add in the tough MCs (Wraithlords in particular) and Lascannons have plenty to shoot at. Remember you are twice as likely to penetrate AV13 with a Las than a ML. If you need to take something down that's AV13 (and above) and quickly, 2 Lascannons (80 points with their bearers) is going to beat 4 MLs (100 points with their bearers) most of the time. 

TT


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Most of my AV13-14 hunting happens with meltas and fists though.

Meltas may not be ideal against 'liths thanks to the lack of melta bonus, but they are still AP1. Against 'chrons, I'm using that massed high AP to vape skelebots and force a phase out, or pop destroyers.

Against russes, I'd rather have maneuverable units that can snake around and hit side armor (and if you;re taking russ squads, all it takes is getting a good shot on one to fuck the whole unit over) Failing that, assault, assault assault.

Assault is a million times more effective than shooting against tanks these days. Anything except 'liths and LRs is going to get raped by powerfists, and every squad that *can* have a fist *should* have a fist. Almost all vehicles have weak rear armor that those S8 attacks will rip through.

Against LRs, meltas do the job just fine. MM attack bike units will eat a land raider for half the cost. Wolves have shitty bikers, so instead cram some hunters into a rhino and go balls out. Hopefully you;'ll at least get in spititng distance before the transport gets vaped. LRs are tank killers by and large. you;ll lose a couple guys to the lascannons but the rest will survive to pop it. Crusaders are meant for killing hordes, their firepower will bounce off your 3+ save, and the redeemer's only dangerous if you're dumb enough to get too close

The problem with lascannons is that they *can* break heavy armor, but not *reliably*
It's frustrating as hell to miss with a lascannon. It's worse to hit and roll low on penetration.

They're good, but they can't be relied upon except in large numbers, and they;re too expensive for large numbers.


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## geneticdeviant (Sep 17, 2009)

Am i missing something here (quite possibly as im relatively new to the hobby) but in an earlier post it was suggested to go with all missile launchers on your long fang squad and also to ass a cyclone? Whats a cyclone? I cannot see any mention of a Cyclone under the long fangs section in the new codex? Please explain folks. Thanks in advance.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Take a wolf guard with terminator armour and give him a Cyclone missile launcher and have him lead the long fang squad.


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## geneticdeviant (Sep 17, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Only problem with that is you need 3x5+ strong WG squads to get 3 cyclones, but if you're running with Grimmy that could happen easily.
> 
> 4xML 1xLC isn;t a bad configuration if you have the extra points.
> 
> ...


how come the TLLC Razorback doesn't take up a FOC slot?

im reading this thread with great interest, as im waiting on some nice new wolves stuff to arrive and can't wait to play this army. Im hoping for your advice however. I love the idea of 3 units of 5 missile launnchers with 3 cyclones added to the mix so im looking on your advice on how to incorporate this into a 2000point army list. Please can you advise me on how to complete the folloiwng army list based on the use of the missile launcer/ctclone combo. 

HQ: 

1. LOGAN

TROOPS: 

1. WOLF GUARD PACK (5 MODELS)

2. WOLF GUARD PACK (5 MODELS)

3. WOLF GUARD PACK (5 MODELS)

NB: All wolf guard will be equipped with Termie armour. One wolf guard from each unit will be equipped with a cyclone missile launcher in addition to termie armour and split off from his pack and go and lead my Long Fangs packs

HEAVY SUPPORT:

1. LONG FANGS PACK (5 MODELS) <5 missile launchers, led by wolf guard with termie armour and cyclone>

2. LONG FANGS PACK (5 MODELS) <5 missile launchers, led by wolf guard with termie armour and cyclone>

3. LONG FANGS PACK (5 MODELS) <5 missile launchers, led by wolf guard with termie armour and cyclone>

NB: These units will ride in twin linked Lascannon Razorbacks.


So how would you supplement this list thus far for a 2000point balanced army list?

Should i add Njal or a rune Priest as an additional HQ? 

What additional troops, elites, fast support and heavy support should i take?

Help please?

Advice please?


Have amended the above list, is Logan necessary? I mean im not taking any elites at the moment. Should i include some elite choices?

should i equip all wolf guard with termie armour?


Please remember the EDIT button if you have something to add after you make a post -G


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

geneticdeviant said:


> how come the TLLC Razorback doesn't take up a FOC slot?


Because it's a Dedicated Transport for the Longfangs and dedicated transports never use an FOC slot



> im reading this thread with great interest, as im waiting on some nice new wolves stuff to arrive and can't wait to play this army. Im hoping for your advice however. I love the idea of 3 units of 5 missile launnchers with 3 cyclones added to the mix so im looking on your advice on how to incorporate this into a 2000point army list. Please can you advise me on how to complete the folloiwng army list based on the use of the missile launcer/ctclone combo.


Remember though, you only get one Cyclone per Wolfguard pack, and only if there's 5 or more in the pack.

If you wanted to put a cyclone in *every* longfang pack you would also need to buy three squads of 5 or more Wolfguard, and that's very expensive.

Remember, "Unit" means squad, not always the same as "Model"

a 10-model squad of wolfguard is still just one unit. Only one model per unit (of 5 or more) is allowed to take the special terminator weapons.

However, if you really want to play it like that you could go with somehting like this...

HQ:
Logan
Rune Priest (Living Lightning, JoTWW, Choser of the Slain, Wolf Tooth Necklace)

Troops:
10 man Wolfguard: 2x PF, Combi-Melta, Combi-Flamer, 1x PW, 1xCyclone Terminator, Drop Pod (for Logan, since he can;t ride in a rhino)
10 man Wolfguard: 2x PF, Combi-Melta, Combi-Flamer, 1x PW, 1xCyclone Terminator, Rhino
10 man Wolfguard: 2x PF, Combi-Melta, Combi-Flamer, 1x PW, 1xCyclone Terminator, Rhino

Heavy
6 man Longfang 5xML, TLLC Razorback
6 man Longfang 5xML, TLLC Razorback
6 man Longfang 5xML, TLLC Razorback

That's exactly 200 points, about fifty models and a half dozen vehicles. Its not bad but it;s a little shallow.


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## geneticdeviant (Sep 17, 2009)

i amended my list.

Further sdvice would be gratefully received , thanks



Galahad said:


> Because it's a Dedicated Transport for the Longfangs and dedicated transports never use an FOC slot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought long fangs can only have upto 5 models in a pack? is this correct?


Please remember the EDIT button if you have something to add after you make a post -G


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

PLEASE remember to use the "EDIT" button at the bottom of your post if you have something you want to add after you makea post. THere's no need to have two or three consecutive posts when you could just put everything into one.

Without Logan all of those wolf guard become Elites choices, so you really do need him if you're going to pull this off. You could take the WG as elites but you'd have to spend a few hundred points on a meager assortment of troops.

And check your codex, it says Long Fangs are 1-6 models, all but the sarge must swap their weapons for heavies.

The sarge does *not* carry a heavy weapon, so if you have 5-man LF squads, you only get 4 MLs


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## geneticdeviant (Sep 17, 2009)

what tactics would you employ for the rune priest? how would you look to use him?



Galahad said:


> Only problem with that is you need 3x5+ strong WG squads to get 3 cyclones, but if you're running with Grimmy that could happen easily.
> 
> 4xML 1xLC isn;t a bad configuration if you have the extra points.
> 
> ...


im confused, your proposing going with 6 long fang models (5 plus a sargeant) led by a wolf guard in termie armour equipeed with cyclone missile launcher, riding in a twin linked lascannon Razorback, right?

Well i think this is an illegal configuration, if you look in space wolves codex under the terminator armour section, it says that razorbacks cannot carry anyone in terminator armour?


Please remember the EDIT button if you have something to add after you make a post -G


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

They can't. But that doesn't matter. If the Long Fangs are in the Razorback, they aren't shooting. The Razorback is merely there as a Twin-linked Lascannon Platform.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Exactly, you don't have to *ride* in the razorback, you can just buy it for the squad and have it roll around shooting things.
I would *never* put heavy weapons *inside* a transport. Each time the transport moves or you put the guys in or out of it you're giving up shots.

As for the rune priest, put him in one of the wolfguard rhino squads and have him shoot his Jaws or Lightning out of the top hatch until you get close enough to assault.

Also, please, please, PLEASE start using the EDIT button at the bottom of your posts if there's something you want to add.

It's getitng annoying having to merge all your posts together.


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