# Plasma syfonator rant!!!!



## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Probaly got the name wrong but this grey knight gysmo is OVERPOWERED unless it is a freakish amount of points-this thing WILL cripple your tau army, almost every bloody tau gun hits on sixs 
Pulse rifle/ carbines,burst cannons, plasma rifles, fusion blasters almost viable tau gun save missile pods!!! How do the gameswork shop editors sleep at night knowing that every tau player who plays a mildy intelligent grey knight player WILL lose as there weapons can badly hit! Also elder have it to a lesser extend to
This is the last straw for and grey knights!
Rant over before I rant about the entire tau codex and lose tonnes of rep as has happened before
:ireful2::ireful2::ireful2::ireful2::ireful2::ireful2:


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

This is why kist tailoring is bad, there are so many options in the GK codex that it's unlikely that a general built GK list will include this piece of kit unless they already know they are going to be fighting tau.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Thats very true i find it a very unsportive way to play, You'd think that when Tau can hardly hit taht it would be a boring victory?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Unless playing against Tau, the Plasma Syphon is one of the worst wargear items in the entire codex. If someone took it against you, they are either both stupid and lucky, or were tailoring against you. The latter is the most likely, and frankly has nothing to do with design staff screwing up or Grey Knights being overpowered (which they most certainly are not), it's to do with your opponent being a dick.

And even then, the syphon isn't crazy powerful, it only works on models within 12". With clever use of kroot and a simple 'Twin Flanks' deployment one can really minimise its effects.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Markerlights?

Midnight


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

With regards to the Knights being over-powered:

It's called "codex creep" Kiro.

That's why the Tyranids are still missing models for their army and we're only getting a Tzeentch herald now.

There's not much you can do about it apart from not play competitively. In fairness, Games Workshop DOES say that the golden rule is to have fun. It doesn't say that "YOU MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS OR YOU ARE A FAILURE IN LIFE AND SHOULD BUY SOME CITADEL DICE TO CHOKE TO DEATH ON!!!!!!!!"

Of course the games themselves have a lot of aspects based on chance, so who knows...


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

There actually quite good to have, cause plasma ruins a grey knights day.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

aboytervigon said:


> There actually quite good to have, cause plasma ruins a grey knights day.


and melta guns dont?


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> and melta guns don't?


The range is shorter.

Just saying.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Because As wargear goes, in the GK codex its fairly "meh" too say the least. You have to use an HQ to use it, and to be honest there are fare better peices of wargear for a similar cost (Conversion Beamer, Rad/Psycostroke Grenades, Psybolt for an entire unit, etc)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stop getting within 12" of the Inquisitor with the plasma syphon and suddenly it's not a problem anymore. If he's in a Rhino, blow the crap out of it with missile pods. If he's on foot, he should be dead almost immediately if you choose to target his unit unless it's a Paladin squad.

There's nothing even remotely OP about the plasma syphon.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

I have watched 2 land raiders and 2 stormravens drop in 1 turn thanks to tau shooting, there is no way anything is getting close to your gunline. And if it does get that close your screwed anyway.


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Rage MOAR.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Hmm, only the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can take it, but it only costs 10. How is that the worst piece of gear in the codex? 35 pts for a model with 3 wounds and 4 attacks AND a device that neutralizes plasma weapons within 12"?? I'd take him every game.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

jaysen said:


> Hmm, only the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can take it, but it only costs 10. How is that the worst piece of gear in the codex? 35 pts for a model with 3 wounds and 4 attacks AND a device that neutralizes plasma weapons within 12"?? I'd take him every game.


I wouldn't, because he burns an HQ choice that can be used on far, far more useful choices, like a Librarian or a real Inquisitor (Coteaz).

---

What is everyone's fascination with canceling out plasma fire? There aren't that many plasma weapons in the game and except for Tau, many armies don't use many plasma-based weapons and even those that do can always just... you know, stay 12.1" away and blow the crap out of the offending Inquisitor.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Plasmagun.... if you move, has a range of 12". Plasma pistol, range 12". Granted, most people don't take plasmaguns because of the uber nerf to rapid fire weapons.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

jaysen said:


> Plasmagun.... if you move, has a range of 12". Plasma pistol, range 12". Granted, most people don't take plasmaguns because of the uber nerf to rapid fire weapons.


Then don't move? >_> I mean... that makes sense, doesn't it? Fire plasma guns at long range, don't try to rapid fire them if you need plasma shots to deal with the unit, or use non-plasma weaponry.

The Syphon is a joke upgrade, it's so easily negated which is the reason it only costs 10 points.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

To the OP's Eldar remark:
This piece of equipment will rarely effect an Eldar army. It effects starcannons and plasma missiles. Starcannons aren't taken as often these days, and even if they are they are not the majority of your fire power. As for the missiles, well it's a blast weapon, it's going to hit something anyway. Plus both these weapons have a range much greater than 12".


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

When my bro told me about it he just said that it causes all plasma weapons even most tau weapons to hit on sixs, hhe didn't mention any thing about the 12" range and the done thing at the local gw that I play at is arrive with a crap tonne of lists ask your opponent exactly what he's using and pick the list to best deal with him- I don't do this thought
And why should any be affected game wise by its fluff? There meant to be two serrate bits yet the grey knights have managed to combine the two to give them selves yet another advantage!:ireful2:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> When my bro told me about it he just said that it causes all plasma weapons even most tau weapons to hit on sixs, hhe didn't mention any thing about the 12" range and the done thing at the local gw that I play at is arrive with a crap tonne of lists ask your opponent exactly what he's using and pick the list to best deal with him- I don't do this thought
> And why should any be affected game wise by its fluff? There meant to be two serrate bits yet the grey knights have managed to combine the two to give them selves yet another advantage!:ireful2:


The armies would all be the same otherwise, and no faction would have any kind of character.

Midnight


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah, list tailoring is for Weasels and Cowards.

Katie, I'm not sure that we are talking on the same wavelength. I said that the 35 pt, 3 wound, 4 attack inquisitor with the plasma siphon is a good deal, cheap, and very useful. You counter with an argument that there are ways to avoid him. Well, I have no argument with that. There are ways to avoid any character or ability in WH40k. But, that says nothing about what I claimed. If I can spend 35 pts on an independent character that good that will also force my opponent to 1. not move, 2. not shoot any of his plasma weapons at me, or even 3. shoot his whole army at that squad in order to kill the inquisitor, I've basically gotten control of the game. It's near the best deal I've seen. I'm not saying it's a push button win. But, it's a good deal that can definitely be used.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> There actually quite good to have, cause plasma ruins a grey knights day.


No more so than any other marine. A mech GK list is more than happy for you to take Plasma over Melta; they'll just ignore any damage via Fortitude. Paladins simply allocate the wounds away and blow the crap out of you with psycannon fire. So really terminators don't like it... Except that they're primarily a shooting unit and hence will spend much time in cover anyway.



jaysen said:


> Hmm, only the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can take it, but it only costs 10. How is that the worst piece of gear in the codex? 35 pts for a model with 3 wounds and 4 attacks AND a device that neutralizes plasma weapons within 12"?? I'd take him every game.


As opposed to taking an Inquisitor which isn't shit? Ordo Xenos with Rad, Psychotroke and Combi-Melta, perhaps with Hammerhand if you have leftover points. That's a fantastic deal; an excellent, cheap force multiplier that gives you access to your best source of melta (henchmen) and turns a good combat unit into a fucking terrifying one. The Plasma Syphon is an utter waste of points against 99% of the armies out there; I would never even consider it in a TAC list (which should be all lists).



kiro the avenger! said:


> When my bro told me about it he just said that it causes all plasma weapons even most tau weapons to hit on sixs, hhe didn't mention any thing about the 12" range and the done thing at the local gw that I play at is arrive with a crap tonne of lists ask your opponent exactly what he's using and pick the list to best deal with him- I don't do this thought
> And why should any be affected game wise by its fluff? There meant to be two serrate bits yet the grey knights have managed to combine the two to give them selves yet another advantage!:ireful2:


Well, really, when my opponent tells me he has a weapon that completely screws over my only way of dealing any damage, I tend to ask him to show me the codex. Before coming on and ranting about a balanced codex, perhaps you should actually check the rules and avoid getting cheated in the first place. Just sayin'.



jaysen said:


> Yeah, list tailoring is for Weasels and Cowards.


Pfft, I prefer to refer to tailors as miscreants, vagabonds, ragamuffins, knaves or hoodlums. God damn suit-making assholes.



jaysen said:


> Katie, I'm not sure that we are talking on the same wavelength. I said that the 35 pt, 3 wound, 4 attack inquisitor with the plasma siphon is a good deal, cheap, and very useful. You counter with an argument that there are ways to avoid him. Well, I have no argument with that. There are ways to avoid any character or ability in WH40k. But, that says nothing about what I claimed. If I can spend 35 pts on an independent character that good that will also force my opponent to 1. not move, 2. not shoot any of his plasma weapons at me, or even 3. shoot his whole army at that squad in order to kill the inquisitor, I've basically gotten control of the game. It's near the best deal I've seen. I'm not saying it's a push button win. But, it's a good deal that can definitely be used.


It's not a good deal. You're not just spending points here, you're spending valuable FOC slots on this choice, and the GK HQ section is chock full of incredible choices- Librarians, Grand Masters, Ordo Malleus in TDA with Psycannon, Ordo Xenos with Grenades, Coteaz, hell, even Crowe gives you purifiers as troops. Add in the fact that 10pts is Psybolt on two vehicles or a hammer for a squad, the Syphon just has a far too high opportunity cost.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

When I ask for the codex they say 'I forgot it' and the rules at my local gw(bluewater) are no reading books off of the wall unless it's the sample rule book else you buy it


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Well, there's your problem. You're playing against "Codex: I make it up" instead of "Codex: Grey Knights".


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Warhammer 40,000 has what we call a 'permissive ruleset'. In short, this means that it is assumed that if you cannot prove that you are allowed to do something, then you are not allowed to do it. Therefore if your opponent cannot show you that all of your shooting is BS1, then your shooting is not BS1. The conversation goes something like this:

Dudeman: "Oh hey, by the way, all your shooting is BS1"
You: "Why?"
Dudeman: "Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon. I'm a douche who sucks sweaty donkey balls."
You: "Oh really? Can you show me where it says this item makes me BS1?"
Dudeman:"No, I was too busy picking flakes of sweaty donkey scrotum skin out of my teeth and I forgot to pack my codex."
You: "Well, tough tits sunshine, I'm not buying it, for all I know this is some homebrew bullshit. My suits are BS3."

Although, if you're playing in a GW, it is somewhat odd that the store staff don't know how it works...Did you ask the staff?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> When I ask for the codex they say 'I forgot it' and the rules at my local gw(bluewater) are no reading books off of the wall unless it's the sample rule book else you buy it


If he cannot produce the rules he cannot use them... simple rule used almost everywhere. Similarly most GWs (or gaming clubs) have a rule saying you must have dice, tape, rulebook and _dex_ if you want to play...


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

coke123 said:


> It's not a good deal. You're not just spending points here, you're spending valuable FOC slots on this choice, and the GK HQ section is chock full of incredible choices- Librarians, Grand Masters, Ordo Malleus in TDA with Psycannon, Ordo Xenos with Grenades, Coteaz, hell, even Crowe gives you purifiers as troops. Add in the fact that 10pts is Psybolt on two vehicles or a hammer for a squad, the Syphon just has a far too high opportunity cost.


Okay, that explains it. Good reasoning. While nullifying some plasma weapons some of the time might be good in certain situations, it's better to take a choice that's badarse in all situations.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Now you're getting it. There's a bunch of stuff like that; for instance, dreadknights have the same problem- They're heavy support, which means they compete with psyflemen. Point for point dreadknights are actually pretty good, however every dreadknight taken is a dreadnought you didn't take (unless you play really high point levels, when you might just be able to afford dreadknights and Venerable dreadnoughts). Every Zoanthrope Brood/Deathleaper you take is a unit of Hive Guard you didn't take, etc.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

DeathKlokk said:


> Well, there's your problem. You're playing against "Codex: I make it up" instead of "Codex: Grey Knights".


Just epic ! :biggrin:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

jaysen said:


> Okay, that explains it. Good reasoning. While nullifying some plasma weapons some of the time might be good in certain situations, it's better to take a choice that's badarse in all situations.


I said this same thing earlier in the thread.  lol


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Samules said:


> I have watched 2 land raiders and 2 stormravens drop in 1 turn thanks to tau shooting, there is no way anything is getting close to your gunline. And if it does get that close your screwed anyway.


"gun line" is at the top of examples of ways NOT to play Tau. Sorry, if you're Tau and your army isn't mobile, you're practically a frog in a straightjacket.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

:goodpost:

Can I just add: Our store also has a 'No-Dexes-off-the-wall' policy, but we have a cupboard full of the Store Codexes that anyone can rootle through as long as they take care of the books and put 'em back (They come in real handy when I'm arguing a fluff point with someone).

You could ask about it (The Codex Cupboard) at your FLGS. It (The Codex Cupboard) wasn't known to me until a few months back, and I've been going (To the FLGS) for years.

Midnight


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Can I just add: Our store also has a 'No-Dexes-off-the-wall' policy, but we have a cupboard full of the Store Codexes that anyone can rootle through as long as they take care of the books and put 'em back (They come in real handy when I'm arguing a fluff point with someone).
> 
> ...


Sorry- I'm tired and this doesn't make sense right now


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

That's because it isn't particularly clear: think he means that the cupboard of dexy goodness wasn't known to him till recently.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

excluding the fact that it over priced to use agianst anything other than Tau it has has a limited range and unike to one type of inquisitor. Just take him down first. 
Also anyone perposly building a list to fight tau with any army should go sit in the corner and let the real sportsmen play. I played a game agianst a firend who had witen a anti-guard list. When he relised i was using Nids he rewrote the list to have 4 Dreads (2 Assault cannons, Ironclad, Venrable and as many Heavy flamers as possible), a Whirlwind, 2 Sniper scout squads (with HB) a Thunderfire cannon and a Master of the forge with 4 Servos (all with arms).

If that isn't taloring i don't know what is.......still beat him though [He only had 1 Immoblied Ironclad Dread left at the end of the game]


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> If that isn't taloring i don't know what is.......still beat him though [He only had 1 Immoblied Ironclad Dread left at the end of the game]


This is the sort of bloke you agree to play with guard, say you've turned up with nids and then act 'surprised' when you open your case and find you brought your SW instead... make him run in circles 

As for the syphon: its a fun item to throw into a friendly all-comers list, and I would certainly like something of the equivalent. Not useful very often but nice when it does work (though I'm thinking more about oblitorators then tau: if I played GK and had taken the syphon I would probably "forget" it was there if I played against tau).


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

A recent thought: tau are at their most deadly within 12", that 2 plasma/pulse rifle shots, not that far in burst cannon range, fusion blaster range. So against the syponator yay are at their least effective when they would normally be…


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Edited my previous post for clarity.



kiro the avenger! said:


> A recent thought: tau are at their most deadly within 12", that 2 plasma/pulse rifle shots, not that far in burst cannon range, fusion blaster range. So against the syponator yay are at their least effective when they would normally be…


Tau are also at their most vulnerable at 12". A full squad of Fire Warriors in rapid-fire range won't kill many Space Marines, and even three or four Marines will wreck a squad of FW in combat (Doubly so for GK - twice as many kills in CC).

It's a moot point, however - Kroot are just as good at anti-infantry shooting (Much better if your opponent has a Syphon), and much better in CC (And they can even take a HW in the form of a Krootox. Oh the Krootox...). So why would you ever take anything other than the minimum amount of Fire Warriors?

Midnight


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

You know, if I were gonna make an anti-army device to add as wargear for the strongest current codex, I think I'd pick a bigger threat than Tau. That's like kicking a three legged dog.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

kiro the avenger! said:


> A recent thought: tau are at their most deadly within 12", that 2 plasma/pulse rifle shots, not that far in burst cannon range, fusion blaster range. So against the syponator yay are at their least effective when they would normally be…


They're not that hampered at longer ranges; you simply focus fire whatever unit holds the syphon at long range and then kill the inquisitor. Even at long range, several Fire Knives should be able to delete that unit with markerlight support. Once the Inquisitor is dead, you can then feel free to take down the army in short range shooting. Hell, you could even assault the Inquisitor's unit with Kroot and direct every attack the have against said Inquisitor- and Ordo Xenos Inquisitor won't survive that many attacks.



jaysen said:


> You know, if I were gonna make an anti-army device to add as wargear for the strongest current codex, I think I'd pick a bigger threat than Tau. That's like kicking a three legged dog.


Tau are pretty much the strongest 4th edition army I can think of; they are actually a pretty big threat. The fact remains that the Plasma Syphon is so completely useless against anyone else that it isn't even worth considering.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

jaysen said:


> You know, if I were gonna make an anti-army device to add as wargear for the strongest current codex, I think I'd pick a bigger threat than Tau. That's like kicking a three legged dog.


I could say something about the Daemon codex here, but I think that's been sufficiently covered elsewhere...


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Grokfog said:


> I could say something about the Daemon codex here, but I think that's been sufficiently covered elsewhere...


But apparently, the Daemon book sucks monkey balls to begin with, so GK's are still balanced...

Odd fact considering there's plenty of Daemon players who can tear almost any army a new one, unless it's GK's?:ireful2:
And if our codex is so bad, then Daemon armies should have had roughly the same number of placements at the 'ard boyz regionals as Necrons/'Nids, but there we actually had a decent showing for a lesser played army!

GK's are the problem, not Daemons...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> And if our codex is so bad, then Daemon armies should have had roughly the same number of placements at the 'ard boyz regionals as Necrons/'Nids, but there we actually had a decent showing for a lesser played army!


It's mostly on the skill of the player, not the army being played.

Midnight


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> But apparently, the Daemon book sucks monkey balls to begin with, so GK's are still balanced...
> 
> Odd fact considering there's plenty of Daemon players who can tear almost any army a new one, unless it's GK's?:ireful2:
> And if our codex is so bad, then Daemon armies should have had roughly the same number of placements at the 'ard boyz regionals as Necrons/'Nids, but there we actually had a decent showing for a lesser played army!
> ...


I get the feeling that you may have misunderstood me.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

experiment 626 said:


> And if our codex is so bad, then Daemon armies should have had roughly the same number of placements at the 'ard boyz regionals as Necrons/'Nids, but there we actually had a decent showing for a lesser played army!
> 
> GK's are the problem, not Daemons...


That's because Daemons are bad, but not Necron bad.

Grey Knights are fine. You really need to get over your irrational hatred for Grey Knights and direct your anger at GW, who screwed the Daemons with a bad Codex.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> That's because Daemons are bad, but not Necron bad.
> 
> Grey Knights are fine. You really need to get over your irrational hatred for Grey Knights and direct your anger at GW, who screwed the Daemons with a bad Codex.


How can you say C:CD is bad when they have consistant showings at all major tournys?
The only thing that makes them unplayable at a competative level right now is the sheer amount of army bandwagoners playing GKs.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> That's because Daemons are bad, but not Necron bad.
> 
> Grey Knights are fine. You really need to get over your irrational hatred for Grey Knights and direct your anger at GW, who screwed the Daemons with a bad Codex.


GK's are not fine right now - they're ahead of the curve by a decent amount... Paladinwing, Mech Purifyer spam, Henchman spam are top lists. The top lists have very few weaknesses, to the point that most armies have to build specific counters in their lists. (Draigowing is only terrible when there's 3+ objectives on the table - in KP's or Take & Control, they're godly, while Mech Purifyer has so many psycannons it isn't funny...)
When the worst 40k player I've ever seen, who can suck shit and lose every game with top-build SW's suddenly starts rocking alot of the local crowd with a netlist Draigowing, something's wrong...


Daemons are not bad! They can compete vs any list, even heavy mech if they prepare for it. GK's though aren't even a close game most of the time, just a lesson in how to get stomped with humility. (and frankly, I'm tired of not having a chance to win vs GK's!)

Now, GK's are supposedly designed with 6th ed in mind, so hopefully by next summer they'll be tonned down and bullshit like Paladin wound allocation squads will get nerfed hardcore...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Ravner298 said:


> How can you say C:CD is bad when they have consistant showings at all major tournys?


Because the vast majority of major tournaments use soft scores which artificially alter the results by adding in additional irrelevant factors (anything other than which armies are winning games) so you can't really trust the numbers.



> The only thing that makes them unplayable at a competative level right now is the sheer amount of army bandwagoners playing GKs.


I feel like a lot of the 40k community has a very short memory.

Before the Grey Knight Codex came out, Daemons struggled a _lot_. Less than they do now absolutely, but still a lot. Daemons suck against the top armies in the game, Grey Knights haven't changed that, they've just become yet another hurdle for the Daemons to overcome.



experiment 626 said:


> GK's are not fine right now - they're ahead of the curve by a decent amount... Paladinwing, Mech Purifyer spam, Henchman spam are top lists. The top lists have very few weaknesses, to the point that most armies have to build specific counters in their lists. (Draigowing is only terrible when there's 3+ objectives on the table - in KP's or Take & Control, they're godly, while Mech Purifyer has so many psycannons it isn't funny...)
> When the worst 40k player I've ever seen, who can suck shit and lose every game with top-build SW's suddenly starts rocking alot of the local crowd with a netlist Draigowing, something's wrong...


Yeah, your local group isn't adapting to changes and this player has found an army that requires almost no thinking to use. That's what's wrong.  When the group figures out how to deal with lots of Paladins he'll go right back to where he was (probably, anyway).




> Daemons are not bad! They can compete vs any list, even heavy mech if they prepare for it. GK's though aren't even a close game most of the time, just a lesson in how to get stomped with humility. (and frankly, I'm tired of not having a chance to win vs GK's!)


Then stop playing a crappy army. You're in a no different (though slightly less leaky) boat as Necron players at this point.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Now, GK's are supposedly designed with 6th ed in mind, so hopefully by next summer they'll be tonned down and bullshit like Paladin wound allocation squads will get nerfed hardcore...


Wound allocation is going away in 6th. Bye bye draigo.



> Before the Grey Knight Codex came out, Daemons struggled a lot. Less than they do now absolutely, but still a lot. Daemons suck against the top armies in the game, Grey Knights haven't changed that, they've just become yet another hurdle for the Daemons to overcome.


Having an uphill battle vs. mech doesn't compaire to an auto loss vs GK.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hey, I play both necrons and daemons... now, I'll stop this bickering and say that they are both equally bad 

I would actually say necrons are a slightly better army then daemons: daemons are stronger but necrons can run away more easily. Against GK and BA (so much FNP and/or 2+ that I won't be able to kill them) I just run away like an eldar and then fight turns 5+ (or steal/block objectives).
I enjoy such games, but it does leave me feeling a little powerless (like running away from a bull: there is no point in standing your ground and fighting)... probably gets a little dispiriting for the other player though: they know they can trounce me, if only they could catch me.
Then again my necrons only really struggle with the local NDK: 2-3 in every army means there isn't much else, and while warriors and flayed ones can deal with henchmen and terminators (2*5 termies aren't too hard to kill) the 2-3 huge MCs are more of a problem. So far I've found wraith combat works quite well... 3++ with WBB means they live quite a long time, which is good because even with S6 it still takes a while to get through a 2+ save.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Grey knights, IMO, are an army that takes a decent tactical mind to work out the kinks in their armour but when you have they are easy to exploit. They have some awesome offensive abilities but are quite weak & vulnerable to template fire on units as they will take out a larger percentage of their models.


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

As a Grey Knight player, I always laugh when it comes to these threads. I was about to post how terrible the Plasma Syphon is and that 1.) no one should ever take it unless you are intending to be a dick and 2.) if Tau are within 12" of Grey Knights they are most likely already dead anyways. 

But as always, the thread descends into a "I hate GK" rant. The truth is plain and simple, Grey Knights are very good. They are not overpowered or broken, but they easily overwhelm the narrow minded and unprepared. As the game changes and internet lists are refined and available to players of all skill levels, Grey Knights become the Scissors in the new Rock, Paper, Scissor world of Warhammer. Armies soon become so min/maxed (Leafblower, Draigowing, etc) that they have near auto wins versus some builds and auto losses versus others. This is the way the game is leading to because of people just like us (forum users who define the proverbial "metagame"). Don't expect game shattering changes, but more of the same. This is what the game has evolved to becuase this is what we asked for (stronger armies/cheaper point costs with each Codex edition). That leaves you with one choice, adapt and evolve with the change or get swept away by it.

How does that saying go... "Don't hate the player, hate the game". :grin:


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Grey Knights are very good. They are not overpowered or broken, but they easily overwhelm the narrow minded and unprepared


That needs an astrix, *except versus Chaos Daemons

Im not saying GK are an auto win vs everyone, just CD which is largely undisputeable. I have no grips when playing vs GK with my CSM.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> It's a moot point, however - Kroot are just as good at anti-infantry shooting (Much better if your opponent has a Syphon), and much better in CC (And they can even take a HW in the form of a Krootox. Oh the Krootox...). So why would you ever take anything other than the minimum amount of Fire Warriors?
> Midnight


Kroot rifles/guns are affected by the damned syfonator since their plasma based-tau modified their primitive weapons to fire a advanced plasma based slug so the higher strenght/AP pulse weapons are better at ranged combat- even with syphon


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> That needs an astrix, *except versus Chaos Daemons


Yea, but the whole point of the GKs are to be overpowered against Daemons, now is it not?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Yea, but the whole point of the GKs are to be overpowered against Daemons, now is it not?


Which makes for a horrible game design.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> Which makes for a horrible game design.


No, since it is the whole god damn point of them? If they did not excel against Daemons they would be ordinary Astartes. With stormbolters. And cool swords. And the awesomeness bellow. 






I mean, that just speaks of badass incarnate.​


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Kroot rifles/guns are affected by the damned syfonator since their plasma based-tau modified their primitive weapons to fire a advanced plasma based slug so the higher strenght/AP pulse weapons are better at ranged combat- even with syphon


Nope, they aren't. The "syfonator" only works against anything with a "pulse" or "plasma" in front of it.

Kroot rifles have neither.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Kroot rifles/guns are affected by the damned syfonator since their plasma based-tau modified their primitive weapons to fire a advanced plasma based slug so the higher strenght/AP pulse weapons are better at ranged combat- even with syphon


In the FAQ it says all Tau Pulse weapons and all weapons described as using Plasma as its effect or in it's special rules. So Kroot Rifles are go!

The higher Str and AP of the FW is mitigated by the cost. You can get more Kroot for the cost of Fire Warriors, and thusly take more casualties AND put out more shots. Besides, Kroot get to fire the Krootox Kroot Cannon! And miss 

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> No, since it is the whole god damn point of them? If they did not excel against Daemons they would be ordinary Astartes. With stormbolters. And cool swords. And the awesomeness bellow.


Fluff wise? I agree with you. But having an army, especially a new one that you see constantly, just straight out beat you? I'd say that game play wise, that's bad design.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> Fluff wise? I agree with you. But having an army, especially a new one that you see constantly, just straight out beat you? I'd say that game play wise, that's bad design.


Really, its kind of unfluffy as well-

How often have you read where the GK just obliterate daemon incursions? Most of the time the GK are called in to just put up a fight, the daemons having slaughtered most opposition.

But on the tabletop, daemons are balanced against the other armies, so now when you have this army designed to defeat the other, it creates an imbalance.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that GK _should_ be specialised at fighting Daemons. It's the reason of their very existence. However, this should be balanced by the Daemons getting extra rules. Since when have GK been called in for minor Daemonic Incursions? Fifteen Lesser Daemons summoned by a small cult of Khorne-worshippers is not really worthy of Brother-Captain Stern's attention. However, a Warp Rift with endless waves of Daemons pouring through? Yep, call in the Daemonhunters.

I liked the old book (At least the fluff/game crossover bits at the back), where if GK fought Daemons the Daemons got advantages too.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Just give them preferred enemy and call it a day imo.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

gally912 said:


> Really, its kind of unfluffy as well-
> 
> How often have you read where the GK just obliterate daemon incursions? Most of the time the GK are called in to just put up a fight, the daemons having slaughtered most opposition.
> 
> But on the tabletop, daemons are balanced against the other armies, so now when you have this army designed to defeat the other, it creates an imbalance.


If we're going on fluff GK should do well against daemons... and daemons should trounce almost everything else. In the fluff a daemon turns up and everyone dies...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Only when they're in massive numbers (Which they usually are, admittedly), such as during an Incursion.

In 'Hammer of Daemons' Orks kill Bloodletters in a fairly even-sided match, although you could argue that the Orks are marginally losing. That was just a small band of Orks, so their Waaagh! wasn't particularly strong. Thusly, I think that an Ork Waaagh! could take on a Daemonic Incursion isolated in reality, i.e. the Daemons don't get endless reinforcements/reincarnation via a Warp Storm.

Midnight


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

"Cadian Blood" sees a CSM daemon prince wipe out a shrineworld pretty much single handed, it even kills an inquisitor with no more then a psychic command.

The lesser daemons tend to be fairly ok to deal with, but when a DP or greater daemons that turns up it gets seriously painful. Sure they normally get pushed back to the warp, but it takes massive casualties to do... even for space marines (and this is fluff space marines at that).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Well that WAS a Daemon Prince. Probably a very powerful one, and wiping one Shrine World isn't really a great show of strength (Hagia being an exception to the rule).

Justicar Alaric wipes a Daemon World by himself, but that doesn't make him a Grand Master.

Midnight


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Grey Knights have to many abilities that are aimed solely at other races than simply Daemons, which imo is wrong. Personally all I thought GKs should get is a bit more polish, more units and a bit more emphasis on fighting daemons. Not this staggering change where GKs simply carve anyone and everything in half without sweating.

Also don't play armies that write lists solely to beat you. Imo every player should have a single army list and stick to it.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

GK's would have been well and decently above the curve vs Daemons with just Prefered Enemy: Daemons, psylincers, Daemonbane, Dark Ex (which should be worded better to define what a Daemonic Gift is!) and such...
But then Ward being the idiot, frothing fanboy he is, gave them brutally abonoxious bullshit like Warp Quake, Truesilver armour, Banishers, a godly Mech game, Psybolts and everything else...



If a codex breaks another book and makes it unplayable, then that codex is broken, because it's unbalanced the playing field as a whole by telling a particular group they _need_ _a new army_ _to compete_.
We all know as time goes on and new books come out that the older books will eventually suffer, but never before have we been to the point that the newest codex has singled out 1 older codex and basically told them so blaitently to go fuck themselves!

And while 40k doesn't have any outright, 'I-Win buttons', the top 3 GK builds are currently the closest thing to it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

1. Daemons can still beat GK. Honestly, how many people do you see who take all of the _specifically_ anti-Daemon things? I've not seen a GK list using Dark Excommunication (Which is worded fine - it clearly states in the Daemons codex what Daemonic Gifts are).

2. Having a mech game is what 5th edition is all about. I play Vanilla Marines, who do Mech brilliantly. Yet I don't hear complaints about them, with their 3++ dime-a-dozen Hammernators or ability to put loads of armour on the table. Why? Because people have had years to adapt to it. GK are new and ultra and *Mat Ward wrote the Codex, so everyone thinks it's automatically OP and cheesy and unfluffy.*

3. The top 3 GK builds can still be beaten. What's happened to all the Long Fangs and Melta Veterans that everyone was moaning about? What's happened to the cheesy, unbeatable Dark Eldar? No, they're more than three months old, and thusly are made of suck. And Dark Eldar have no hopes! They weren't even co-written by Ward, so they're auto-lose.

GK are not overpowered. They're new. New and different to the armies that came before it, and thusly the gaming community will have to adapt to this new force.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Also don't play armies that write lists solely to beat you. Imo every player should have a single army list and stick to it.


Daemons have no real answer to a dreadknight.



> Not this staggering change where GKs simply carve anyone and everything in half without sweating.


Gk can be beaten. The average GK player isn't exactly a tactical mastermind.

Experiment, well said.



> 1. Daemons can still beat GK. Honestly, how many people do you see who take all of the specifically anti-Daemon things? I've not seen a GK list using Dark Excommunication (Which is worded fine - it clearly states in the Daemons codex what Daemonic Gifts are).


Alot of passive things the GK get are completely 1 sided vs CD. Experiment has them listed. Whenever I see a dreadknight I cringe.

I completely agree that GK get alot of heat for being 'new' and 'broken' but honestly they go down vs. other lists rather easily. (except paladin wound allocation abuse which is a whole other rant). I don't think anyone is saying GK are an auto win vs other armies....just the staggering advantage they have vs CD makes CD unplayable competatively because there is little to NO chance to overcome the handicap at a competative level.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> 1. Daemons can still beat GK. Honestly, how many people do you see who take all of the _specifically_ anti-Daemon things? I've not seen a GK list using Dark Excommunication (Which is worded fine - it clearly states in the Daemons codex what Daemonic Gifts are).


Daemons can, that's just the roll of the dice for you there though. And you've not seen a single Dreadknight in a GK List? They're pretty popular and banjo Daemons accidentally. That's the main reason GK's beat Daemons so easily is the fact you don't buy specific Anti-daemon things, you just get them. 




MidnightSun said:


> GK are not overpowered. They're new. New and different to the armies that came before it, and thusly the gaming community will have to adapt to this new force.
> 
> Midnight


You are spot on GK are not overpowered. So they are balanced against say Space Wolves. But now imagine you're playing your Daemons against this army which is balanced against Space Marines, Dark Eldar, etc etc. Give them all Preferred Enemy, Psych-out grenades and Daemonbane for starters, then abilities like War Quake, Dark Excommunication etc. Now where does that leave you? Oh yes overpowered against Deamons. 

Do you see the problem?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, ok. I didn't realise that there was that much anti-daemon stuff built into GK.

However, I will say that Dark Excommunication is not a guaranteed thing, and Daemons do have answers to it, however bad those answers may be .You can't remove the Poison from Beasts of Nurgle, for example, although why you'd run Beasts anyway is beyond me. A better one would be Flamers of Tzeentch. Dark Excommunication isn't a ranged power, right? And it can't be used in your opponent's turn? If one of those is true, Flamers will rip a Dreadknight a new one.

Dreads are better than 'Knights anyway, due to providing long-range, reliable anti-tank fire that is the GK weakness.

Daemons aren't unplayable competitively - not every list you fight will be GK. Daemons still beat face on Green Tide, Footdar and other lists, and when played well can beat most lists depending on the player ability.

Midnight


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, ok. I didn't realise that there was that much anti-daemon stuff built into GK.
> 
> However, I will say that Dark Excommunication is not a guaranteed thing, and Daemons do have answers to it, however bad those answers may be .You can't remove the Poison from Beasts of Nurgle, for example, although why you'd run Beasts anyway is beyond me. A better one would be Flamers of Tzeentch. Dark Excommunication isn't a ranged power, right? And it can't be used in your opponent's turn? If one of those is true, Flamers will rip a Dreadknight a new one.
> 
> ...


If I wanted a fluff Khorne Army, not mixing daemons etc I'd have no chance against GKs, you can only beat GKs if you build a list to beat them which imo is wrong, you should have a single list to fight all. The problem is GKs can have a single list to beat anything and everything with ease no matter what is thrown in, it would probably even beat tailored lists 9/10.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> If I wanted a fluff Khorne Army, not mixing daemons etc I'd have no chance against GKs, you can only beat GKs if you build a list to beat them which imo is wrong, you should have a single list to fight all. The problem is GKs can have a single list to beat anything and everything with ease no matter what is thrown in, it would probably even beat tailored lists 9/10.


Yes, you will definitely lose with that kind of outlook on the army. GK have weaknesses. Expensive troops, and although those troops have nasty attacks, they very seldom have more than one (This is the problem with most Space Marine armies - a small number of strong attacks, as opposed to Tyranids, who rely on throwing buckets of dice to cause wounds). 

You don't have to tailor your list to beat GK (And you can beat Coteaz, no problems). Some units are worse against GK, some are better. Nurgle units get a lot worse due to practically universal S5 and PWs, and Daemonettes get a lot better due to less models to fight, so more concentrated wounds, and more Rends per model.

Besides, if you run an all-Khorne list you have Flesh Hounds and Bloodthirsters, who have 2++ saves against FWs and Psychic Powers. Assuming Hammerhand casts, most GKs will need 5s to hit, 5s to wound, and the Thirster needs to fail a 2++ save, and then fail a LD10 check. A Bloodthirster will mulch most GK units.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Dark Excommunication isn't a ranged power, right? And it can't be used in your opponent's turn? If one of those is true, Flamers will rip a Dreadknight a new one.


warp quakeeeeee



> If I wanted a fluff Khorne Army, not mixing daemons etc I'd have no chance against GKs


As midnight pointed out, Khorne have a better chance vs GK than most other daemons. Flesh hounds are a pretty nice answer to them infact.



> The problem is GKs can have a single list to beat anything and everything with ease no matter what is thrown in, it would probably even beat tailored lists 9/10.


Couldn't be more untrue. They're strong and their tactics are borderline mindless to play with for sure, but they are beatable. (Just not with CD)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> warp quakeeeeee If they're casting Warp Quake they're not casting Hammerhand, or Dark Escommunication. Win for Daemons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some extra words.

Midnight


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

The thing that angers me about the GK book is it comes off as very 'Idiot Proof'.

There's nothing rewarding for example when you show upto a game against someone who's copied a killer netlist, (ie: wound allocation Dragiowing), outplayed them at every turn, yet still get royally thrashed just because it _*takes 11 fucking wounds to kill 1 model!!!*_
Unless you've built an anti-paladin list, or else you naturally have alot of S8+ low ap weaponry on hand, that list is about as 'fun' to try and beat as sticking your balls in a vice for kicks would be...

I don't mind losing - it's how you learn to be a better general, and sometimes the dice will simply enjoy kicking you repeatedly.
But losing when you've played a near-perfect/perfect game, where your opponent made every mistake in the book and yet they still tabled you simply by virtue of their list being beyond silly-good is maddening for anyone beyond a saint!



That's more than anything why there's so many cries about the GK's. It's the most boring army to face right now, because in any kind of competitve setting, only certain lists stack up well to it.

Us poor Daemons are simply Ward's favoured punching bag for some reason...:alcoholic:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Drop Dark Excom and GK vs daemons would be a challenge for the daemon player but a decent fight. Hell drop Dark Excom off the NDK and it'll be decent, at least on a libby you know that the GK player has lugged that 5pt nuke around with him through all those games where it has been useless.


The other anti-daemon rules don't annoy me at all: they're all fine, just makes things a little more difficult, not impossible... and with the average local GK player taking 2.75 NDK (11 NDK between 4 local players) they don't need to tailor lists to kill daemons.... I haven't even seen a GK vehicle this year. Used to be a few around last year with the old codex... but now the NDK has booted them all out.

Then again, as a nid player I'm not that happy to see NDKs anyway: they are similar to a hive tyrant that broke the rules to take both wings and armoured shell (2+ save), grabbed a few other upgrades including 2 sets of scything talons _and _dual boneswords (which a tyrant can't take, and still wouldn't be as good as a force weapon) *and then* got given a 5++ ward and the ability to jump 30" once a game
... oh, and cut 50pts off the top as well

There is a reason I struggle with my nid HQs... too many good options is not one of them


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Really? That many people are taking that many Nemesis Donkey Kongs? No-one even remotely competitive takes them in my area; most opt for Psyflemen instead. Psyflemen add the long range support GKs so desperately need, and are cheaper to boot. If they're taking Venerable Psyflemen+NDKs, then they don't have enough points for anything else... If Dreadknights were elites, then maybe, but the competition for Heavies is pretty strong in the GK codex. Hell, I'd even have to think long and hard about taking NDKs over Purgation squads.

Although, I must say, most GK players would absolutely love to drop Dark Excommunication off a Dreadknight for something else...Holocaust for instance. I'd much rather it put out an extra pie-plate than it nerfing a single daemon squad...


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

You do know how short the range on this is right? RIGHT?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

We have all types of NDK build locally.
1- 3 fully equipped NDKs with 2*5 termies and a basic(ish) grand master to make them troops/scout. If you can deal with NDK you table the list in a coulple turns, if you can't you get smashed (I played this with a wraithwing cron list- I ran away then blocked objectives for a draw).

2- 2 no-gun teleporting NDK with termy back up and lots of henchmen and the SC inquisitor making them troops. Not the best list but good fun to play.

3- 2-3 non-teleporting NDK with guns, 4 small strike squads, grand master and some other stuff (can't really remember).

4- Mordak, ghost knights, libby and lots of telepoting, backed up with 3 teleporting NDK with a few guns. Almost everything teleports into your face turn 1 and you die soon after... unless you can run away, at which point you are laughing.


I don't think any of the local lists are that nasty or that good... except against nids, necrons and daemons, which just happen to be my current armies. Still, can have some good games as long as I'm not using daemons.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> The thing that angers me about the GK book is it comes off as very 'Idiot Proof'.
> 
> There's nothing rewarding for example when you show upto a game against someone who's copied a killer netlist, (ie: wound allocation Dragiowing), outplayed them at every turn, yet still get royally thrashed just because it _*takes 11 fucking wounds to kill 1 model!!!*_ Nobz, Thunderwolves, to an extent Tyranid Warriors, and Bloodcrushers can all do this. Why moan specifically about Paladins? Because they're the new army. What people don't seem to realise about wound allocation is that it takes exactly the same amount of wounds to kill the squad, except you're more likely to make them take a Morale test.
> Unless you've built an anti-paladin list, or else you naturally have alot of S8+ low ap weaponry on hand, that list is about as 'fun' to try and beat as sticking your balls in a vice for kicks would be It's an easy list to beat. Paladins are expensive as fuck, and still only move 6" per turn. They don't run, they kick out two MCPsycannon shots per squad per turn. They might suppress two vehicles. I can drive my Marines around the 6'x4' board, gunning down two Paladins a turn and keeping my objective safe, whilst contesting all others. Paladins are great, but whole armies of Paladins are only great against 4th edition gunlines. Play smart, play 5th, and you'll find yourself doing a lot better....
> ...


Lists don't win games. Players do.

Midnight

EDIT: Tim/Steve, Tyranids should be LOVING Dreadknights. You have higher initiative (Or make him have lower initiative), wound on 4s with Toxin Sacs, ignore armour saves, and effectively have Daemonbane on your weapons. Obviously I'm talking about the premier Tyranid combat monster - the Lash Whip/Bonesword Warrior. Add a Warrior with dual Boneswords into the squad and he's taking a LD test on 3D6 to survive. U mad, NFW?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> We have all types of NDK build locally.
> 1- 3 fully equipped NDKs with 2*5 termies and a basic(ish) grand master to make them troops/scout. If you can deal with NDK you table the list in a coulple turns, if you can't you get smashed (I played this with a wraithwing cron list- I ran away then blocked objectives for a draw).
> 
> 2- 2 no-gun teleporting NDK with termy back up and lots of henchmen and the SC inquisitor making them troops. Not the best list but good fun to play.
> ...


Right... I was going to play that last list myself pre FAQ, and decided against it. A well placed Bubble Wrap should be able to handle most shunt based lists.



Tim/Steve said:


> I don't think any of the local lists are that nasty or that good... except against nids, necrons and daemons, which just happen to be my current armies. Still, can have some good games as long as I'm not using daemons.


I don't think it's as far in your favour as Midnight says, however your Tyranids should be able to handle NDKs. Sure, force weapons are a bitch, but so is Shadow in the Warp. On Daemons and Necrons, I won't argue; the former is fighting the goddamned _Daemonhunters_, whilst the latter falls over to a stiff breeze anyway (assuming equal player skil and blah blah blah).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't know the exact stats for the Dreadknights, so I'm assuming that they're three wound, T6, 2+ 5++ MCs.



> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Tyranid Warriors vs Dreadknight*
> 
> ...



That's for 4 Lash Whip/Bonesword Warriors, with Toxin Sacs and Rending Claws (Non-charging). This is not factoring in psychic powers, shooting, supporting units (Paroxysm, Old Adversary etc.) or the Instant Death abilty of the Boneswords.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> If they're casting Warp Quake they're not casting Hammerhand, or Dark Escommunication. Win for Daemons.


I was watching a local game and the GK guy had his NDK hanging out with the strike squad using warp quake to avoid the guys 6 flamers 

nids, necrons and daemons Tim/Steve? You're a borderline masochist




> There's nothing rewarding for example when you show upto a game against someone who's copied a killer netlist, (ie: wound allocation Dragiowing), outplayed them at every turn, yet still get royally thrashed just because it takes 11 fucking wounds to kill 1 model!!! Nobz, Thunderwolves, to an extent Tyranid Warriors, and Bloodcrushers can all do this. Why moan specifically about Paladins?


10 2 wound terminators with a 2+/5+ featuring FnP is a tad different than say for example crushers or nid warriors, who have less armor and half the allocation options. I generally don't play against people building a list around wound allocation abuse because while it's "allowed" in the rules it's still bordering on cheating in my book. I hope the rumors of it going away in 6th ed. are true. Maybe half the GK players at my FLGS will ebay their new lists or stop playing draigowing completely.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> 10 2 wound terminators with a 2+/5+ featuring FnP is a tad different than say for example crushers or nid warriors, who have less armor and half the allocation options.


FnP is a massive, massive points cost for not a lot of benefit. It only really helps against Plasma Guns (EDIT - wait a second, AP2. Yeah, it's fairly useless), and realistically how many of those do you see nowadays. In combat most Paladins will have a 4++ from Swords anyway. 10 Paladins with Apothecary is over 600pts. It moves six inches a turn. Avoidable? Hell yeah. If you want Wound Allocation you'll have to buy upgrades, and why buy a Paladin Deathstar without a Brothehood Banner? It takes you up over 700pts, and you STILL can't hurt vehicles.

Why do you even want 10 Paladins? Seriously? How dead do you need your target to be? So, these 10 Paladins cause 502958315 ID armour-ignoring wounds. On a Grot squad. Some good 700pts, that.



Ravner298 said:


> I generally don't play against people building a list around wound allocation abuse because while it's "allowed" in the rules it's still bordering on cheating in my book. I hope the rumors of it going away in 6th ed. are true. Maybe half the GK players at my FLGS will ebay their new lists or stop playing draigowing completely.


For Wound Allocation to work, you need Deathstars. Deathstars are fail. Like their namesake, they can only be in one place at once, can only attack one target, and can be destroyed by a more mobile, numerically superior force. And EVERYONE outnumbers Paladins. Everyone. 

Why do you want people to sell off their armies? You want them to enjoy the game less, or leave, so you can win more? How about you just become a better general, and then there'll be no winners. There'll be no losers. Everyone will feel _challenged_.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Both draigowing players run a full 10 squad, another 5 core and NDKs.



> Why do you want people to sell off their armies? You want them to enjoy the game less, or leave, so you can win more? How about you just become a better general, and then there'll be no winners. There'll be no losers. Everyone will feel challenged.


I want the army bandwagoners to sell off their draigowings. It's pretty realistic since the guys mentioned above do it everytime a new 'op' netlist shows up. As you can easily tell from previous posts I play and enjoy CD. I can't even play them at local events right now because 2-5 out of 12-15 players are GKs. As heavily discussed and supported in this thread, tactics only take you so far in that matchup. It's a waste of time and rather upsetting to get tabled by passive rules.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

@ Midnightsun: wound allocation allows you to take far more wounds on a unit before dying. EG- you hit a 5 man MEQ unit with 2 lascannons and 4 boltgun shots... I allocate the 2 lascannon wounds to a flamer and save the other wounds. I've already lost less models then without allocation. With big units with excellent saves and massive complexion that goes up exponentially. 

As for the warrior vs NDK math... its irrelevant. Its basically the equivalent of driving a LR to within 12" of a long fang dev squad with 5 multimeltas. Those warriors are obviously the perfect counter to NDK, but they need the NDK to voluntarily move within 12" of them. 

Best things nids have to take on NDK are toxin stealers, toxin gaunts and toxin hormogaunts... which are the units most raped by storm bolters.

As for the various instant death abilities: shadow in the warp drops the Ld10 units down to 50% chance of activating force weaopns.... while single bone swords have an 8% chance of killing those same Ld10 models (such as characters and NDK).


Main reason I think nids and necrons can't really deal with new GK is the amount of 2+ saves they have. Neither army can do many AP1-2 wounds at range, and while nids can rape in combat they have to run the gauntlet of S4-5 storm bolter fire to get there.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I know what wound allocation is. I do it all the time with Nobz squads. However, I end up with 10 Nobz all on one wound. One more round of shooting and three more wounds. What do I do know? My allocation ability has run out. Whoever I put wound to will die. So I lose three Nobz. Morale check forced, which I fail . 

Wound Allocation works, but only for a time. Eventually you run out of models to allocate to, and have to take Morale Tests every turn.

Your opponent wastes his Dreadknight is he won't move to within 12" of you. Have two squads of those Warriors, and put them across your battleline.

The Warriors may have been a bad example, but only because EVERYTHING in a Tyranid list scares Dreadknights barring the MCs. Genestealers, Gaunts, Killer Hormagaunts, Zoanthropes, etc. can ALL kill Dreadknights, via Poison, Rending, or just Warp Lance.

Combine any of these things with Paroxysm, and the NDK has a problem. Broodlords (Never leave home without 'em) will rip through Dreadknights.

Tyranids have plenty answeres to Dreadknights.

Midnight


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> That's for 4 Lash Whip/Bonesword Warriors, with Toxin Sacs and Rending Claws (Non-charging). This is not factoring in psychic powers, shooting, supporting units (Paroxysm, Old Adversary etc.) or the Instant Death abilty of the Boneswords.
> 
> Midnight


You're missing the fact Warriors are LOL-terrible and will never make it into any good Nid list. So yeah if you play a bad Nid list you might be able to kill a Dreadknight with them, if the Dreadknight chooses to engage them. 

Nids get the super fun thing that Psych-Out Grenades (Yes I know NDK's don't have them but everyone else does) work on Hive Tyrants, bye bye Tyrants.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Why do you want people to sell off their armies? You want them to enjoy the game less, or leave, so you can win more? How about you just become a better general, and then there'll be no winners. There'll be no losers. Everyone will feel _challenged_.
> 
> Midnight


But don't you understand? If people can't deal with something, surely you can't expect them to change, it's the mean WAACers playing their shitty Draigowing lists that are destroying the hobby.



Ravner298 said:


> Both draigowing players run a full 10 squad, another 5 core and NDKs.
> 
> I want the army bandwagoners to sell off their draigowings. It's pretty realistic since the guys mentioned above do it everytime a new 'op' netlist shows up. As you can easily tell from previous posts I play and enjoy CD. I can't even play them at local events right now because 2-5 out of 12-15 players are GKs. As heavily discussed and supported in this thread, tactics only take you so far in that matchup. It's a waste of time and rather upsetting to get tabled by passive rules.


What's wrong with bandwagoning? People have every right to play whatever army they like. They can do whatever they like with their money, and no amount of getting annoyed at them gives you the right to expect them to sell off their armies. It's arrogant in the extreme to expect others to change because you aren't winning. You are first and foremost responsible for your enjoyment in this hobby, not the 'bandwagoners', so it's your decision as to whether you continue to play Daemons for the love of it or jump ship, but you do not get a say in what others do with their hobby, beyond abiding by the rules of the game, of course.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Obviously voicing my discontent with the state of GK vs CD to people who have never had to deal with it or even play daemons was a bad idea.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Ravner298 said:


> Obviously voicing my discontent with the state of GK vs CD to people who have never had to deal with it or even play daemons was a bad idea.


Err, Aramaro and I both play Daemons, so the two of us at least understand where you're coming from. I agree, it's an utter bullshit matchup, I'm just a lot less upset about it then I would be if Daemons were an actual competitive option.

---

I see people talk about Fatecrusher or other bullshit and want to slam my head into my desk out of sheer frustration with the state of competitive 40k if people actually consider Fatecrusher to be anything even approaching a good list.

---

Anyway, if Daemons actually had a chance at the highest level of play, I'd be pissed that they were screwed by the Grey Knights too. It's just that... they don't, so auto-losing to one army really doesn't bother me since the chances of placing well with a Daemons army are slim to none anyway. For casual games, it's more an issue but that's not really something I deal with (as 99% of the games my group plays are practice for larger events with occasional Apoc or narrative-style games for a change of pace).

I still think that the anger should be directed at how awful the Daemon Codex is rather than at the Grey Knights for screwing Daemons over especially hard.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Wasn't aimed at you Katie Drake, or Tim/Steve, or Aramoro. They've all voiced their frustrations with it, others appear to not be convinced at its 1 sided-ness. Tactics only get you so far...but it is a dice game afterall, miracles do happen.

Isn't Fatecrusher and Fiendweaver (...or is it Fatefiend) one of our only competative lists? I see it turn up more often than any others. I'd love to hear an alternative to it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

coke123 said:


> But don't you understand? If people can't deal with something, surely you can't expect them to change, it's the mean WAACers playing their shitty Draigowing lists that are destroying the hobby.


This is sarcasm, surely?

Aramoro: I don't see how you can think Warriors are bad. Where else do you put the Warrior Prime (Arguably one of the best HQs in the game)? What do you use for plentiful, fairly hideable PW attacks? And which other units in the Tyranid Codex have Grenades (Or at least a damn good substitute)? Not many, for sure. A 4+/4+ save for the majority of the time, with three wounds, is fairly survivable, so it's not like they suck because they're fragile. 

They put out 3 PW attacks per turn, at WS5, and if your an uber-Warrior you're wounding on 4s with re-rolls. You also strike first. Alternatively you can give up striking first for a better-than Force Weapon. So they're not bad in combat.

You can be re-rolling hits with Old Adversary, and you can be getting hit on 3s, and be hit on 5s, with Paroxysm. You can have FnP from a Tervigon, and you can have free S/I5 from Swarmlord. When synergised, Warriors are utterly devastating. They also synergise with the other beasties, stopping Hormagaunts from chasing lone Gun Drones or Rhinos around the backfield.

Midnight


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> This is sarcasm, surely?
> 
> Midnight


It was, don't worry.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> This is sarcasm, surely?


Yes, Sarcasm. Is it possible to get HTML tags for sarcasm? Or perhaps we should assign it a colour...


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## Wingman (Jun 27, 2011)

Sarcasm should be in pink letters


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Warriors do sound pretty scary. But they are expensive as hell, also they fold to anything with a strength above 8. Monolith Plates, DL spam, Fire Dragons (or any melta spam for that matter), TH/SS Terms, Battle Cannons, Grey Knights in general, the list goes on and on. With the proliferation of anti tank weapons you see nowadays, there is more than enough in a Nid list to tear down and expensive point sink like Warriors. Not that they are that hard to simply avoid anyway.

Nids have a handful of options, but TBH most of their wins do come from people being inexperienced against them. Once people know how what to prioritize against Nids, they don't hold up very well.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Aramoro: I don't see how you can think Warriors are bad. Where else do you put the Warrior Prime (Arguably one of the best HQs in the game)? What do you use for plentiful, fairly hideable PW attacks? And which other units in the Tyranid Codex have Grenades (Or at least a damn good substitute)? Not many, for sure. A 4+/4+ save for the majority of the time, with three wounds, is fairly survivable, so it's not like they suck because they're fragile.


Um, that's exactly why they suck...
Long Fang unit of missile launchers fires 5 krak missiles at some warriors., gets lucky and hits 4 times, all wound and the nid player has lost a 180pt unit.
... that's why few nid players use warriors.


Anyway, wasn't sarcasm meant to be orange?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

So, anyway.... That plasma syfonator... yeah... it sucks and stuff.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> Um, that's exactly why they suck...
> Long Fang unit of missile launchers fires 5 krak missiles at some warriors., gets lucky and hits 4 times, all wound and the nid player has lost a 180pt unit.
> ... that's why few nid players use warriors.
> 
> ...


Wasn't orange jokes? Do we consider sarcasm to be a subset of jokes, because I think it should be separate... perhaps light blue? Red is moderator-mode, orange is jokes, and people seem to have adopted light green for when they reply within others quotes, but blue is unassigned as yet... and better still, it isn't pink. No. Just no.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

coke123 said:


> Wasn't orange jokes? Do we consider sarcasm to be a subset of jokes, because I think it should be separate... perhaps light blue? Red is moderator-mode, orange is jokes, and people seem to have adopted light green for when they reply within others quotes, but blue is unassigned as yet... and better still, it isn't pink. No. Just no.


I used to use pink text as my mod voice back when I had powaz. So pink is taken. Back off.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey, I was against using pink, take it, it's all yours.

Although doesn't Kirby have absolute dominion over all pink?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Aramoro: I don't see how you can think Warriors are bad. Where else do you put the Warrior Prime (Arguably one of the best HQs in the game)? What do you use for plentiful, fairly hideable PW attacks? And which other units in the Tyranid Codex have Grenades (Or at least a damn good substitute)? Not many, for sure. A 4+/4+ save for the majority of the time, with three wounds, is fairly survivable, so it's not like they suck because they're fragile.


Your prime hangs out with your Hive Guard to give them some support in assault. 

So with what you're saying i'm guessing you're arming your Warriors with Lashwhip and Boneswords, so you're paying 45 points for something with a 4+ armour save and no grenades, yes they have Lashwhips but they're still striking at I1 themselves when they assault into cover. Then if you opponent has taken any anti-tank weaponry he's got something to shoot at. With that in mind you must sit in cover, slowing you down significantly. 

They are too expensive, too fragile and too slow to do what you want them to do.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

On the plasma syphonator what I'm pissed off at Is that it affects 80% of the tau armoury and 5% of most other armouries-and that percent is easily avoided you CAN NOT avoid the 90% that tau have nerfed!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I think that was just a rubbish FAQ. If they had made it plasma rifles only then it wouldn't have been at all OP, and would have still done its intended job: nerfing RF AP2 weapons.

... in fact, that might have been a good way of setting what was plasma. Can't immediately think of anything RF and AP2 that isn't plasma... and who cares if a plasma cannon is BS1 or BS4, it's mostly on the scatter dice anyway.


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## eyescrossed (Mar 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> >says Tyranid Warriors are good
> >thinks Paladins are bad
> >doesn't know that Plasmaguns ignore FNP because of AP2


Riiight... 


EDIT: Yeah, I greentexted on Heresy, big deal


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

All that Plasma Syfonator FAQ does for me is mean that the Avatar of Khaine in the Phoenix Court of Khaine Apoc formation has very little to fear from Tau outside of a handful of weapons. 

It just sets a harsh line really. FAQ's have been pretty heavy handed here lately.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think I'm going to use my BA army as a Plays As Grey Knights... Use all my models, but use the Grey Knights rule set.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Moving back on topic.

I am not a GK player and amazingly there are none in my local store so my thoughts were that the plasma syphon upgrade could be useful in a small points game. Say 500 points? I say this because in our store these kind of games are on small boards so it can get into range easily and its cheap and plasma weapons can be deadly in small points games since there are not many models on the board and AP2 shooting is nearly always useful.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, in a kill team syphon would be awesome: small boards, lots of plasma guns (no big vehicles being able to give plasmagunners FNP and/or relentless suddenly makes everyone love them).. but then again range isn't that important if you can choose to DS a couple of syphons right in the enemy's face.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

GK have other problems at 500pts though, espcially if you play a no-Special Characters ruleset.

@ jaysen: MATFACers are not good. (Marine Army That Fits All Codices) Why don'y you just get better with Blood Angels?

Midnight


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