# Magnus More Evil Than Depicted? (Spoilers)



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I want you to think about the thread question firstly without thinking about _Prospero Burns_. Do you think Magnus had a sinister side to him that may have been evil than the *entirety* of the novel (_A Thousand Sons_) tried to portray him? I read upon a few quotes a couple months ago, that really gave me a different depiction of the character of Magnus.

The first time I read it, I thought of the Thousand Sons and Magnus as the victims. But these couple instances I read up on again actually took that idea completely away from me.

Especially when I remembered at the end of the novel where Magnus was trying to convince himself that his actions were right. These two parts seemed to go hand in hand. This entire time he knew what he was doing was wrong. But the whole time he kept on trying to convince himself he wasn't. He wasn't a victim. This maybe the reason why he decided to have his whole planet and people be exterminated.


"Magnus broads in his black tower, peering into the depths of the Great Ocean for Validation, a sign that he was right to act as he did." Page 557


Take in mind, I was able to remember this part before rereading the following passages. And its funny because it goes




> There is to be no killing my sons, we will have no blood on our hands from a fight that is not our making.


 Page 230


The above is what everybody thinks about when talking about the Thousand Sons and Magnus in _A Thousand Sons._ Even me. For the record, this is said a few sentences before the following. Which is interesting. Because then its pretty much forgotten as the conflict arrises and so much goes on.




> Ahriman- Why is this happening?
> Magnus- I secured the Great Library with the Scarab Occult... but Skarssen's Great Company arrived right on our heels. They sought to destroy the library. I stopped them.


 Page 230-231


... So... who really started this feud? If after all Magnus just stats above that there will be no blood on their hands for something... _they_ didn't start. The wording is perfect. Because as the reader we're thinking. Okay the wolves are the mean astartes in this. They attacked the helpless little Thousand Sons. 

However, it appears that the Thousand Sons may have actually started to attack the wolves. The statement that Magnus says isn't wrong mind you. 

Because according to them, the Wolves started this violence by destroying the library. So its the Wolves fault that the Thousand Sons *had* to attack them. 

This is strange. Firstly, astartes consider any other astartes brothers. And this is probably the strongest of brotherhood in arms in the Imperium. Being a United States Marine and looking at our brotherhood, I can't imagine how strong theirs would be. 

So for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to break their brotherhood bonds over this library and attack the Wolves, is quite desperate, insane, unheard of (except for perhaps the lost legions), and treacherous. 

As such, I'm surprised the Thousand Sons were not punished more than they were. It is my opinion that the Council of Nikea was little more than a slap on the wrist over what Magnus and his legion truly deserved over that incident.

I also believe Magnus was truly an evil threat against the Imperium, and an accident waiting to happen. He was treated with kid gloves the entire time and till the end. Probably so that he could be chained up to the Golden Throne like a spoiled brat that Primarch truly was.

What do you think now?


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Well throughout the Thousand Sons book it constantly refers back to Magnus making deals with the Immaterium. It tells that Magnus sacrificed Ahriman's twin brother to stop the flesh-change that had fallen over his sons.

He then constantly keeps Ahirman's memory of it supressed to prevent him from ever remembering the true events. Magnus was known to turn a blind eye to occults and other magical and/or religious traits and creeds of various worlds in an effort to increase his arcane knowledge. Such as is the case during the first few chapters of the book, A Thousand Sons.

This seems to me to be very similar to the traits and deeds committed by Lorgar, and a whole world had to die to punish him. Magnus was merely banned from his craft. A minor slap.

I am becoming more and more aligned with you on this subject. I originally thought that the Emperor was too harsh on Magnus and turned a blind eye too much to what Magnus was doing. 

Then again, one must ask why didn't the Emperor ever question this? The Emperor obviously knew about the flesh-change even as the Thousand Sons left Terra. The book constantly states that the flesh change was a constant companion to them and even the Emperor couldn't stop it. So when Magnus suddenly road onto the scene and then managed to halt the flesh change. Why didn't the Emperor ask how?

How could Magnus achieve what he, the greatest psyker in the world who, despite that, required a deal with the Dark Gods to even begin to lay the foundation stones for the creation of the Primarchs and the Astartes -- not be able to do stop the change? 

It seems absolutely absurd to me that the Emperor would never have considered what kind of effort Magnus would have had to put into his legion to hault the flesh-change. Not to mention the Magnus' deal took place decades prior to the Heresy and probably did so within the very halls of the Imperial Palace.

Why did the Master of Mankind turn a blind eye to his most fragile of sons? The power Magnus weilded was understand by both of them, but still the Emperor knew how smart Magnus was and how powerful. Eventually Magnus would, just as the Emperor did, find the Dark Gods. 

It just seems a stroke of absolute madness to even let Magnus live.

Though to get back to your topic. To end this with a strong point -- Magnus played with fire, then cried when he got burned. Problem is, big baby's been crying for the last ten thousand years.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

First, we need to remember that there are no good guys in the 40k/Heresy universe. There are merely varying degrees of tyrants, mass murderers, and sociopaths. Even "heroes" like Garviel Loken put entire worlds to the sword in the name of an absolutely twisted society/ideology. Yeah, yeah, he talks a good game, but, then again, Talos of the Night Lords also goes on about how he must always oppose the evil and the hubris of the Emperor.

Where Magnus is concerned, we need to remember that his fatal flaw was always the sense of hubris that allowed him to believe that the ends he was pursuing justified the means he employed. He believed his aims were so noble that he continuously skimmed over the things he did to get to where he was. This library incident is no different.

That doesn't make him the villain to Russ' hero, not by any means. Russ and his crew really have no claim to righteousness. It's obvious in both "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns" that they have been pushing their luck with their ferocious alpha wolf act for sometime.

As for the sense of brotherhood? Here's what I think. Marines act the way they do with each other because they voluntarily swear an oath to uphold and embrace a certain code and esprit de corps. _Space_ Marines are more or less brainwashed superhumans who subscribe to a certain ethos because a machine told their brain to do so, and/or because there's coding in their DNA that makes it important to them to listen to their father figure. In that sense, if Magnus tells his Thousand Sons to pound a wolf down, or if Russ tells his boys to tear some sorcerers apart... that's what's going to happen.

As for how right or wrong that is, consider that (A) both Legions are being manipulated into distrusting and disliking each other; and (B) Magnus and Russ both know that the whole brotherhood gig comes with a whole heaping of hypocrisy. If it was all that great, Russ wouldn't have had to put two other Legions down, now, would he? :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> As for how right or wrong that is, consider that (A) both Legions are being manipulated into distrusting and disliking each other; and (B) Magnus and Russ both know that the whole brotherhood gig comes with a whole heaping of hypocrisy. If it was all that great, Russ wouldn't have had to put two other Legions down, now, would he? :grin:


Yes, he would have. Russ grew up in a wolf pack and in a society only different because it was comprised of humans rather than animals. His upbringing told him that the most powerful and dominant leads and that you are to follow them without question. When the emperor came he essentially established his dominance and proved that he was his father, something which is also suppose to be followed without question. Russ would have barked 3 times, did a back flip and pissed on paper if the Emperor said to do it. He clearly loved his brothers, but the Emperor is the elder so what he says goes.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

That's all well and good, but Russ' instincts, background, whatever, has nothing to do with the reasons that II and XI were put down. Nor do those traits have anything to do with the "brotherhood" stuff the Astartes parade around. Magnus knew this, so there was a degree to which he could legitimately raise the bullshit flag if someone read him the "you killed Astartes!" riot act. :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> That's all well and good, but Russ' instincts, background, whatever, has nothing to do with the reasons that II and XI were put down. Nor do those traits have anything to do with the "brotherhood" stuff the Astartes parade around. Magnus knew this, so there was a degree to which he could legitimately raise the bullshit flag if someone read him the "you killed Astartes!" riot act. :grin:


It might not have been the reason they were put down, but it was the reason the Rout were chosen for the job. They were loyal to the core, as I said, Russ would have shit golden bricks if the Emperor asked him to. It doesn't matter if Russ loved the other primarchs, which I think he did, the only thing that mattered was that the Emperor gave him an order.

As far as it pertains to the brotherhood, it was the reason those feeling were irrelevant to Russ.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i don't think it would have mattered much as it seems each brother has the aspects of thier father to varying degrees. Magnus is to all intense and purposes the psyker abilities of this father, he had the potential to surpass his father and with his "gift" came a thirst for knowledge that set him aside from his brothers. Above all else Magnus valued knowledge be it the history of a "Enlightened" world or the history of a crushed world it mattered not.

Russ on the other hand cares little for these things but grew up on a world that distrusts magic as they see it. Fenris is to all intense and purposes a world akin to the ancient beliefs of the vikings so when it came down to it the only leigon the Emperor could realistically throw at the Tsons without any thought or conscience about it was was the wolves. 
They hate witches and warlocks with a passion and yet this is hypocritical in itself as the Space Wolves have thier stormseers whom they respect so its contradictions.

Is magnus evil? he is no more evil then any of his brothers or indeed his father. The emp has his good side and has his dark side and all of his sons in someway refelect this especiall as Phoebus correctly said, they are putting a world and its population to the sword and the fire for not complying to the emperors mandate of unification.
i don't believe that Magnus was inherrantly evil, i think he was trying to heal the flaws so that his sons did not have to fear the flesh change but in trhying to find a cure he made serious mistakes and once those mistakes were made he had to act to make sure that, in Ahrimans case, were never truely discovered. 
I believe that Magnus tried to prevent the Heresy but because he broke daddys rule about using a power that is as natural fo him to use as breathing is to us daddy immediatly decided that Magnus had gone against his word and sent in the wolves to punish him and bring him to heel.
Instead of asking himself why his son would willingly risk everything to bring him the news he condemned his son as a disobedient brat who needed a spanking, how dare he say that about my favourite son, horus would never do such a thing lies lies, you get the picture? 
In bringing his father the truth of what was really going on around him he was punished and the wolves obeyed so it was only natural that the one man that could have been a thorn in Horus's side ended up joining the rebellion but not because he willingly wanted to but because he had no choice but to do that. 
By giving himself over to Tzeentch he believed he saved his sons but sometimes the good intentions are not all that great when you think about it.

Magnus isn't evil imho just misguided and maybe yes his hubris got the better of him but on some level all the primarchs think they are better then anyone else, thats not thier fault thats how they were designed. I just think the Emepror had no intentions of listening to Magnus who inadvertantly broke the webway, just as he did not listen to others,. the Emperor listens to only what he wants to listen to and then uses his sons as he sees fit,

Magnus broke my laws therefore i'll send Leman and his wolves to bring the errant boy to heal. He didn't care that the savagry of the wolves would mean that in Russ's eyes the whole world had to die. The law of the Beast against the law of knowledge, the beast wins everytime. Wolves when they attack always kill the alpha male and alpha female first then the cubs makes it easier to take over the pack. 
thats what Russ did, but to a more devastating degree. he is his fathers sanctioned killer. 
Magnus is now having to live with the consequences of his actions i wouldn't say he is crying like a baby but i would say that he is certainly having to accept his role in things and as much as i am a Lorgar fan i have gained a lot of sympathy for Magnus and his sons. 
They were betrayed by forces around them that they had no control over Magnus tried to use what he knew was his by birthrite to warn of the coming storm but to no avail and was punished for it. He let his world die as he beleived he had to but in the end when he came to his senses he kne that he would not be given a fair hearing so he gave in and that was his mistake and one that now he cannot undo.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> However, it appears that the Thousand Sons may have actually started to attack the wolves. The statement that Magnus says isn't wrong mind you.
> 
> Because according to them, the Wolves started this violence by destroying the library. So its the Wolves fault that the Thousand Sons *had* to attack them.


But we don't know that the Thousand Sons attacked them. ''Stopping them'' can mean many different things.



ckcrawford said:


> This is strange. Firstly, astartes consider any other astartes brothers. And this is probably the strongest of brotherhood in arms in the Imperium. Being a United States Marine and looking at our brotherhood, I can't imagine how strong theirs would be.


The Ultramarines in the First Heretic where pretty quick to round up the Word Bearers on Monarchia. Said Word Bearers threatened violence at least once. With Magnus and Russ where stated to have gotten along poorly even before this. I don't consider their brotherhood to be that strong actually.


So in conclusion, no. I don't see Magnus as more ''evil''. Although I hesitate to use that term in a setting where the line between good and evil is blurred.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> But we don't know that the Thousand Sons attacked them. ''Stopping them'' can mean many different things.



:laugh:. Sure. Magnus constructed a white picket fence with them so that the Wolves would just stop. It really could be many things. But reasonably I have to say it appears that Magnus bull shitted his way through that book scene. Which I actually have to give McNeill a lot of credit for. He is a much gifted author than I originally gave him credit for.

He pretty much stated the Thousand Sons attacked the Wolves first. But the whole time, most of the readers are thinking to themselves, or still trying to justify the Thousand Sons. 




Gree said:


> The Ultramarines in the First Heretic where pretty quick to round up the Word Bearers on Monarchia. Said Word Bearers threatened violence at least once. With Magnus and Russ where stated to have gotten along poorly even before this. I don't consider their brotherhood to be that strong actually.


What happened in Monarchia happened due to the Emperor's authority. Do I think Guilliman and his Ultramarines would have had the heart to do what they did without the Emperor telling them to do so? Well to be honest I really don't know. I don't think that and Russ destroying three legions has anything to do with this. 

Its not so simple. They killed so I can? No, I just don't think so. Those two legions had to have been a threat to the Emperor and they were ordered to be expunged from existance by the Emperor. It wasn't a free will act like Magnus in the library killing astartes so that he could leave with a library full of books.

But another instance I thought was pretty similar was Dorn and Curze. There was something that prevented Curze from killing his brother. And Curze had his life threatened and honor basically totally destroyed from this guy. But instead he spares him. Contrary, Magnus where he was willing to kill in the name of this library. And this Library isn't even his. The world was not for him to control.

Russ and the Lion got into a fight. Other than that, and other than the fact both sides saw the other as trecherous, they didn't open fire upon one another.

Guilliman whined to the Emperor about Angron being crazy with his anger implants. The Emperor told Angron to stop. And as far as I know, Angron didn't go start killing Ultrarmarines or order the killings. In all probabilty he probably killed his own men instead.

Guilliman also made Alpharius look like a douche. He didn't do anything about it.

And there are probably many instances where astartes could have had unauthorized marine killings. But they didn't. Magnus does though. Over a library! He literally manipulates what he says to his own men. And the funny thing is that what he said was *partly* true. 

Evil in this application should be looked upon as not looking for the farewell for the Imperium. Thats probably the best way to put it

I just wonder if the rest of what Magnus did was also a look created by manipulation. Very much like Tzeentch. 

For example, the breaking of the Imperial Web Way to get word to the Emperor. Many ask, why didn't he do it manually, by ship? Magnus is the greatest psyker. He could have gotten to Terra. He says he wanted to prove to the Emperor that he was right... Maybe he literally wanted to rub it in the Emperor's face.

He looked sad about it in both books. But perhaps he wasn't. If you look at it this way, Magnus got what he wanted. And didn't lose much from when he started. If anything, he gained everything. He got back at the Emperor, giving a big blow to the Imperium which forces the Emperor to sit on the Golden Throne. He got back 1000 of his astartes which he had to start off anyway. He ascended to Daemonhood, being an Immortal forever and getting infinite knowledge from the right chaos god.

He fricken broke the Imperial Webway! Think about it this way. If there was anyone to know the perils of the warp the Emperor and Magnus would be the one to know first hand. Wtf was he thinking when Magnus decided to break into the material world? The creatures of the Great Ocean would let this one slide and just not do anything about it?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> :laugh:. Sure. Magnus constructed a white picket fence with them so that the Wolves would just stop.


Or he could have used his authority as a primarch to have them stop, or he could have used a kine-shield in a defensive measure, etc, etc. He had multiple options that don't require attacking.

You are drawing conclusions here.



ckcrawford said:


> But reasonably I have to say it appears that Magnus bull shitted his way through that book scene.


I'm not seeing it at all.



ckcrawford said:


> He pretty much stated the Thousand Sons attacked the Wolves first. But the whole time, most of the readers are thinking to themselves, or still trying to justify the Thousand Sons.


Actually that's really more your opinion.



ckcrawford said:


> What happened in Monarchia happened due to the Emperor's authority. Do I think Guilliman and his Ultramarines would have had the heart to do what they did without the Emperor telling them to do so? i


Yes, I think so.



ckcrawford said:


> I don't think that and Russ destroying three legions has anything to do with this.


Russ's ties of brotherhood clearly did't stop him from doing what he felt me must.



ckcrawford said:


> Its not so simple. They killed so I can? No, I just don't think so. Those two legions had to have been a threat to the Emperor and they were ordered to be expunged from existance by the Emperor.


No, we don't know the story or circumstances at all.



ckcrawford said:


> It wasn't a free will act like Magnus in the library killing astartes so that he could leave with a library full of books.


Where did Magnus kill Astartes at the Library? I don't recall ever reading that. Magnus had shown he is perfectly cpable of non-lethal methods if he so chose.



ckcrawford said:


> But another instance I thought was pretty similar was Dorn and Curze. There was something that prevented Curze from killing his brother. And Curze had his life threatened and honor basically totally destroyed from this guy. But instead he spares him.


Curze is batshit insane. The Dark King pretty much has Curze attacking Dorn in a fit of madness and leaving because he's nuts.



ckcrawford said:


> Contrary, Magnus where he was willing to kill in the name of this library.


He was? Magnus himself specifically said not to kill any of the Wolves and I see no Space Wolves ever killed int he Sons defensive action nor any indication that the Wolves where killed earlier.



ckcrawford said:


> Russ and the Lion got into a fight. Other than that, and other than the fact both sides saw the other as trecherous, they didn't open fire upon one another.


The two primarchs got in a personal fight, but I don't see why the Leigons would get involved in a non-lethal brawl.



ckcrawford said:


> Guilliman whined to the Emperor about Angron being crazy with his anger implants. The Emperor told Angron to stop. And as far as I know, Angron didn't go start killing Ultrarmarines or order the killings. In all probabilty he probably killed his own men instead.


Did Angron even know about Guilliman's complaints. It's clear he was ignoring the Emperor regardless. And we don't knoiw when or where Guilliman or the Ultramarines were when he made those complaints. Angron is not going to travel half the galaxy so he can kill his allies.



ckcrawford said:


> But they didn't. Magnus does though. Over a library!


He does? Where. I don't recall reading anywhere in A Thousand Sons that he killed Space Wolves or authorised it as such. In fact I would put it as the opposite since we have evidence of dead Thousand Sons from Russ's psychic howl. Ulthizzar get's upset about it when Phosis T'kar mentions it at Shrike. Meanwhile we don't have any evidence of dead Space Wolves at all and Magnus even tells his Sons not to kill.

So no, not seeing it.



ckcrawford said:


> For example, the breaking of the Imperial Web Way to get word to the Emperor. Many ask, why didn't he do it manually, by ship?


Warp travel is notoriously slow. A psychic message would be quicker, especially if the fate of the Imperium is at stake.



ckcrawford said:


> He says he wanted to prove to the Emperor that he was right... Maybe he literally wanted to rub it in the Emperor's face.


I never got that impression.




ckcrawford said:


> He looked sad about it in both books. But perhaps he wasn't. If you look at it this way, Magnus got what he wanted. And didn't lose much from when he started. If anything, he gained everything. He got back at the Emperor, giving a big blow to the Imperium which forces the Emperor to sit on the Golden Throne. He got back 1000 of his astartes which he had to start off anyway. He ascended to Daemonhood, being an Immortal forever and getting infinite knowledge from the right chaos god.


And yet he was willing to let his legion die until Ahirman had to beg him to help.

Sorry,I'm really not seeing it at all.



ckcrawford said:


> He fricken broke the Imperial Webway! Think about it this way. If there was anyone to know the perils of the warp the Emperor and Magnus would be the one to know first hand. Wtf was he thinking when Magnus decided to break into the material world? The creatures of the Great Ocean would let this one slide and just not do anything about it?


I don't think Magnus even knew the Imperial webway existed of that the creatures of the Great Ocean could manifest like that in that kind of power.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> It wasn't a free will act like Magnus in the library killing astartes so that he could leave with a library full of books.
> 
> And there are probably many instances where astartes could have had unauthorized marine killings. But they didn't. Magnus does though. Over a library! He literally manipulates what he says to his own men. And the funny thing is that what he said was *partly* true.


Uh yeah, that's wrong.

The whole shit storm really started after Russ brain pulped nearly an entire fellowship's worth of Athaneans with that howl of his. So he was the one to kill astartes without sanction.

If you re-read the stand off, no Space Wolf astartes died, the only casualties they received is two of their pet 'wolves' (that aren't even fucking wolves) got thrown of the cliff, and only after the 'wolves' attacked.

A lot of what you say about Magnus is pure assumptions on your part, with no real evidence to support it other than a few lines you quoted which in themselves can also be interpreted in his favour.

As such, I don't see him as evil, well, not any more evil than any of the others. He did bad things with noble intentions, a lot of the primarchs did similar. An example is Guilliman. The Ultramarines put an entire world of innocent civilians who didn't know any better to the torch just to make an example. So you can't really point a finger at Magnus and say "oh, he's a bad bad man" when many other primarchs did things just as bad (or worse) in the name of the Emperor. Just because the Emperor orders something doesn't make it good. That guy was probably the most bloodthirsty bastard out of everyone.

Magnus never wanted to fuck over the Imperium, he just buggered up royally.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It might not have been the reason they were put down, but it was the reason the Rout were chosen for the job. They were loyal to the core, as I said, Russ would have shit golden bricks if the Emperor asked him to. It doesn't matter if Russ loved the other primarchs, which I think he did, the only thing that mattered was that the Emperor gave him an order.
> 
> As far as it pertains to the brotherhood, it was the reason those feeling were irrelevant to Russ.


Brother, you're not hearing me.

In the Horus Heresy era, there is supposedly a tradition, bond, brotherhood, esprit de corps--whatever you want to call it--that makes the thought of one Astartes fighting another unthinkable.

The OP questioned how *the Thousand Sons,* not the Space Wolves, could have gone against this brotherhood and attacked brother Space Marines over a Library.

I pointed out that:
(A) Astartes ultimately seem to answer to their Primarch, regardless how they feel about X, Y, or Z concepts.
(B) Magnus knew that, despite all B.S. notions of brotherhood to the contrary, it was *not* unthinkable for Astartes to fight one another, since that had happened _twice_ already.

None of this has anything to do with Russ, wolves, being raised with wolves, being raised with wolves but living in space, etc. :grin:

It has to do with what _other_ Space Marines, who didn't have any of the Space Wolf-specific traits, would or would not do. ckcrawford thinks it's worth mentioning that the Sons may or may not have engaged Space Wolves in defense of a library; and, if they did, that said action would be more important as an offense than doing psychic voodoo stuff.

And I simply disagree with him. Hope that clears it up! 

*To the other posters:*

Personally, I believe that the powers that would have sanctioned Magnus for such an event (violence against other Astartes) would have been more than familiar with the fact that such events HAD happened before, and thus probably would not have come as such a surprise to them.

As for whether or not Magnus killed Space Wolves? You need only read on from the quoted sentences, to the encounter between Magnus and Russ. Russ certainly acts as if Magnus killed Space Wolves.

That having been said...

Again, I don't think Magnus is any more evil than his brothers. Yeah, kills to protect a library... but there's a broader context. He doesn't like what Russ and the Space Wolves stand for, or the fact that they annihilate planets. And of course there are the powers of Chaos exacerbating the situation, and manipulating the two Legions against one another. So there's that bugging him, and then you combine his obsession with knowledge with said pre-existing conflict, and you have a showdown over this precious library. But the library isn't the actual source of conflict--the library is merely symbolic, the excuse both use to go at one another.

Yeah, he tries to justify his actions. So do the rest of them. Curze* has absolutely no right to rail at people criticizing him for terrorizing and murdering after victory has been won. El'Jonson had to have known that leaving Leman out of the loop and depriving him of a matter of honor was going to lead to a confrontation. Does that excuse Russ' conduct? No, but the Lion can't say he acted without consciously knowing that this was going to invite trouble.

Furthermore, equating comparatively minor confrontations--Guilliman criticizing Angron, Guilliman and Alpharius having a spat--with a decades-long, Chaos-fuelled vendetta that centers on extremely controversial matters (sorcery, the Warp) simply doesn't work.

Could Magnus get to Terra and warn the Emperor? Sure he could. Four to six months passed between the time Nathaniel Garro reached Dorn and Isstvan V alone (see "Flight of the Eisenstein", "Fulgrim"). Leman Russ got to Prospero between the events of "False Gods" (when Magnus tries to save Horus from Erebus) and Isstvan III. There was plenty of time for Magnus to do his thing. Once again, though, his fatal flaw of hubris comes to the fore: he could go tell the Emperor; or he could wow him with his super-duper ritual and impress on him the benefits of sorcery. And that's when Tzeentch probably tzapped him by (my guess) unexpectedly super-sizing his sorcery value meal.

Saying that Magnus got everything he wanted in the end, and using that to reconcile with the idea that he was a manipulative villain requires that we ignore the insight the authors have given us about the character. It's the same as ignoring the insight we get from Russ in "Prospero Burns", when, having had his eyes opened to the manipulations of Chaos, he softens and pleads for his brother to surrender rather than see his world burned.

* Curze, incidentally, is a total psychopath. He didn't even have actual conscious memory of attacking Dorn in his frenzy, so saying he stopped shy of killing him because of a code of honor/brotherhood is a mighty long stretch. :grin:

Ironically, when he decides to leave he is completely lucid, as is his equerry. He departs thinking there's no way he's going to be forgiven for what he did.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

In short, Magnus was not evil, he was just a twit?

Personally I subscribe more to that theory than to the one that says he was evil. Magnus was simple a man who was to naive or to stupid to realize he was in way over his head. He thought he could control the warp, bend it to his will, but he didn't realized that the warp is utter chaos and by definition cannot be tamed. Admittedly, he had pure intentions, but he stepped over the line and fell, that's it.

Edit: damnit it phoebus, how am I to quote that and trim it with an iPhone? Ah well, I had been up for 36 hours and I don't even remember having this discussion so I will just say I gotcha. Sorry, I was commenting while incoherent. Probably will happen again, but I will try not to.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't know about being stupid. Naive? Maybe, I suppose, in the sense that he assumed the knowledge he was pursuing was not, in and of itself, evil or should be forbidden. I used hubris because classically it's a flaw that represents an extreme sort of arrogance/self-righteousness.

I hear you on the iPhone bit! :biggrin:

*Chompy Bits,*

As far as I can tell, the psychic howl may very well have been Russ' reaction to his Space Wolves dying. Here's the rough timeline:

- The Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers are going through the last city on Heliosa.
- Ahriman, Uthizzar and Lemuel are talking amongst one another when they feel the psychic howl. Uthizzar recognizes it to be Leman Russ'.
- They continue up the Phoenix Crag.
- We discover that Leman Russ and his First Great Company dropped on the top of the Phoenix Crag.
- We also discover that their progress is stopped by Magnus and the Second Fellowship, led by Phosis T'Kar.
- When Ahriman catches up with Phosis and Magnus, we discover that attack is imminent and that Magnus had to "stop" the Space Wolves.

I think it's written kind of confusingly*, but I'm pretty sure this implies that Russ' psychic howl was a result of the whatever was done to "stop" his Space Wolves. I believe this is further reinforced because when he later accuses Magnus of having blood on his hands, at no point does Magnus bring up his own dead Athanaeans.

Magnus states he does not want them to have blood on their hands from a fight not of their making... but I honestly think he's rationalizing the earlier encounter. As in, "I told Russ and/or his Space Wolves to stop; they wouldn't, so I 'stopped' them." As in, it's not his fault because they ignored his authority.

It would make no sense for Russ to have railed at Magnus for having blood on his hands if no Space Wolves died while Athanaeans did. It would also make no sense for Magnus to get involved in arguments over sorcerous and/or necromantic semantics if Russ was accusing him of something he didn't do (such as kill Space Wolves).

Just my two cents' worth.

* But, the again, in the same section of the book Mr. McNeill seems to have quoted the lyrics of the "Concord Hymn" (which is about the American Revolution) in a mistaken attempt to allude to World War I (since the "shot fired around the world" phrase was used to describe Franz Ferdinand's assassination). Nothing is ever perfect!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Very well stated, Phoebus. For a second there I thought I had gone mad... Lol. It does happen.

On topic, the instances with the other legions and the fact that its no surprise Magnus would do something to "stop" other astartes is for all sakes still pretty insane. 

If we talk about the other legions, and how every legion including the wolves felt over those seperate tratedgies, it clearly does not look like the same type of scenario. 

In this scenario we have Magnus killing other astartes without authority of the Emperor and to gain something purely for himself. 



As for my insight over Magnus possibly being more of a schemer. That is purely my ongoing conspiracy over Magnus, along with many others. Argue with it as you will, but it really makes no difference.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> As for whether or not Magnus killed Space Wolves? You need only read on from the quoted sentences, to the encounter between Magnus and Russ. Russ certainly acts as if Magnus killed Space Wolves.


I'm sorry but on re-reading that whole scene I never got that impression.



Phoebus said:


> I think it's written kind of confusingly*, but I'm pretty sure this implies that Russ' psychic howl was a result of the whatever was done to "stop" his Space Wolves. I believe this is further reinforced because when he later accuses Magnus of having blood on his hands, at no point does Magnus bring up his own dead Athanaeans.


Blood on his hands could easily just mean injury, not death. The reason why Magnus did't bring up the dead Athanaeans is because I only believe he would have done that if Magnus actually had killed Wolves. (Which I don't believe he did)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The phrase "blood on your hands" is almost exclusively used when talking to someone who has killed. I have never seen it directed at someone because they caused injury.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> The phrase "blood on your hands" is almost exclusively used when talking to someone who has killed. I have never seen it directed at someone because they caused injury.


I guess the phrase is up to your interpretation then. I've seen it used differently before. I would assume Russ would be talking about the Fenrisian Wolves who died. I still am not conviced that any VI Legion Astartes died. If Magnus already killed some then there would be no point in stopping and ordering his Astartes to not kill them.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

What about the part where Russ states...

“The Cyclops has gone too far, Lorgar. He has spilled our blood and must pay. ... This is not over, ... Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning
between us, Magnus. This I swear upon the blade of Mjalnar.”

And Magnus says absolutely nothing to dispute this.

As for "blood on his hands" meaning injury, I'm sorry... but that is just a departure from the universally understood meaning of the phrase. "You have blood on your hands" has historically meant that you bear guilt or responsibility associated with causing someone's death.



Gree said:


> I guess the phrase is up to your interpretation then. I've seen it used differently before.


Where?



> I would assume Russ would be talking about the Fenrisian Wolves who died. I still am not conviced that any VI Legion Astartes died. If Magnus already killed some then there would be no point in stopping and ordering his Astartes to not kill them.


Sure there would be. To prevent further escalation for one. And, again, at no point does Magnus contradict Russ' assertions.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> What about the part where Russ states...
> 
> “The Cyclops has gone too far, Lorgar. He has spilled our blood and must pay. ... This is not over, ... Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning
> between us, Magnus. This I swear upon the blade of Mjalnar.”
> ...


Because Magnus already knew Russ would not be swayed by any words he had said, and Lorgar was arriving to stop the argument anyway. There would be no further point in denying that.

Alternativly Russ would't have known any of his warriors would have been spared in the previous assault. Many I imagine would have been knocked unconcious and mistaken for dead. In adiditon Russ probably consideres his pets ''Fenrisian blood.''



Phoebus said:


> As for "blood on his hands" meaning injury, I'm sorry... but that is just a departure from the universally understood meaning of the phrase. "You have blood on your hands" has historically meant that you bear guilt or responsibility associated with causing someone's death.


Then that's your interpretation of it I'm afraid. I did't read the scene in the same way.



Phoebus said:


> Where?


In my life. I don't really have a historical example or quote if oyur asking, I'm just stating how I've heard it personally.



Phoebus said:


> Sure there would be. To prevent further escalation for one.


What further escalation? The Wolves themselves where heading twords the Sons with lethal intent. 



Phoebus said:


> And, again, at no point does Magnus contradict Russ' assertions.


Because Russ would not listen and Lorgar was already trying to make peace.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm with Pheobus on this one. But I'll let him increase his thread count. :grin:

The thing with these scene, is that it is how a lot of readers before reading _Prospero Burns_ of course, interpret the "victimized Magnus" and the "jerk Russ." However, that is not true. 

Magnus says the Wolves arrived at their heels. Basically they both arrived at the same time. But to what purpose? Was either of them looking for a fight? In the grand scheme of things no.

But the Wolves were going in there to destroy the library. The Thousand Sons new this, and they took steps that were required to stop the wolves. They shed blood.

You have one moment where Magnus says he will not shed blood, from a fight that is not their making. But the things is, Magnus thinks he is justified in shedding blood when he's defending a library from the Wolves. This is just completely wrong. Magnus has absolutely no authority over these books, which is also stated by Russ right as the chapter ends.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm with Pheobus on this one. But I'll let him increase his thread count. :grin:


I'm afriad I havn't seen any kind of evidence that will convice me otherwise.




ckcrawford said:


> The thing with these scene, is that it is how a lot of readers before reading _Prospero Burns_ of course, interpret the "victimized Magnus" and the "jerk Russ." However, that is not true.


I have read with books. My opinion had not changed.



ckcrawford said:


> But the Wolves were going in there to destroy the library. The Thousand Sons new this, and they took steps that were required to stop the wolves. They shed blood.


Except we don't know what they did. The ''shedding blood quote'' could refer to the latter scene when Ahriman arrived with Hathor Maat.



ckcrawford said:


> Magnus has absolutely no authority over these books, which is also stated by Russ right as the chapter ends.


No, that's Russ's biased opinion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Biased? The world was found by Russ and his wolves. It was theirs to do what they wished. Now of course, you could call him a liar. But not bias. This is either fact or not.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Biased? The world was found by Russ and his wolves. .


No, it was found by the Imperium. Russ's Wolves only fought there alongside the WB and the TS.




ckcrawford said:


> It was theirs to do what they wished.


No it does not. The Sons fought there as well. The Wolves don't have any exclusive right at all.



ckcrawford said:


> Now of course, you could call him a liar. But not bias. This is either fact or not.


Nope. Russ is defintely biased. I don't need to call him a liar. Russ's own opinion and beliefs should not constitute the gethering of knowledge of how to dispose it said knowledge.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> Because Magnus already knew Russ would not be swayed by any words he had said, and Lorgar was arriving to stop the argument anyway. There would be no further point in denying that.


So they don't talk about the deaths of Space Wolves, but they find the time to argue about necromancy and sorceries? Sorry, but this just don't reconcile.



> Alternativly Russ would't have known any of his warriors would have been spared in the previous assault. Many I imagine would have been knocked unconcious and mistaken for dead.


Please go back and re-read the section in question. Alternately, see the condensed text below. Russ was there when Magnus sealed the library. It is, no offense, disingenuous to assert that he would assume his warriors dead when they weren't.



> Then that's your interpretation of it I'm afraid. I did't read the scene in the same way.
> 
> In my life. I don't really have a historical example or quote if oyur asking, I'm just stating how I've heard it personally.


That's fine, we all hear things that are wrong sometimes. That having been said, "blood on one's hand" is defined and understood, within the English language, as responsibility and/or guilt related to someone else's death. Any cursory search of idiom databases, dictionaries with said idioms, or the extant pool of journalistic articles and literary work will reveal this. Sometimes the examples involve histrionics (such as Sarah Palin having blood on her hands on account of the AZ shootings), and sometimes they involve things we might not consider pertinent (e.g., you having blood on your hands on account of not being a vegetarian or vegan). Death and the responsibility or guilt that comes with, however, is always what's behind the idiom.



> What further escalation? The Wolves themselves where heading twords the Sons with lethal intent.


Magnus' intent was to prevent the library from being destroyed along with the rest of Heliosa. Having accomplished this, he no longer needed to use violence against the Space Wolves. Hence, his urging for restraint.

Because Russ would not listen and Lorgar was already trying to make peace.[/QUOTE]
Again, this simply does not reconcile with the fact that he felt the need to argue semantics about sorcery, necromancy, etc.



> Except we don't know what they did. The ''shedding blood quote'' could refer to the latter scene when Ahriman arrived with Hathor Maat.


Again, you need to re-read those pages. First, Ahriman and Uthizzar are described as feeling the howl of Russ. They then move on.

_"They pushed higher into the Phoenix Crag. Ahriman’s First Fellowship linked with Hathor Maat’s 3rd ... Reports of the fighting came in a haphazard jumble ... The reports intersected and cut across each other in blurted outbursts. Ahriman was barely able to sift meaning from the chaos."_

At that point, what you have is a synopsis of *what has already happened,* courtesy of the reports Ahriman got:

_"Leman Russ and his First Great Company had dropped directly onto the silver mountain’s highest peak, ... The defeated kings offered terms of surrender, but Leman Russ [refused]. ... The Space Wolves tore down through the mountain, ... Nothing was left in their wake ... before them was their next target for destruction: the Great Library of the Phoenix Crag, where Magnus the Red and Phosis T’kar’s 2nd Fellowship stood in ordered ranks. Finally, the Space Wolves rampage was halted."_

Ahriman then runs into Magnus and Phosis T'Kar. By this time, and before the Space Wolves' attack, Magnus has already fought the Space Wolves once--the same ones that were descending with Russ--and sealed the Library.

It simply makes no sense that there was absolutely no fight around the Library but, nonetheless, the Space Wolves' 5th Great Company would all-out attack the Thousand Sons. Clearly blood was shed at the Library, and clearly Russ felt that said blood-taking was initiated by Magnus--since the Cyclopean never bothers to refute this.

In any case, Leman Russ had command over the War of Compliance against Heliosa. Right or wrong, if he told Magnus he was taking control of the Library, basic military doctrine indicates that the latter would need to step aside.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> So they don't talk about the deaths of Space Wolves, but they find the time to argue about necromancy and sorceries? Sorry, but this just don't reconcile.


The necromancy as far as I'm aware only appeared in Prospero Burns when Abnett used it. And the only Thousand Sons to argue in that book was a daemon pretending to be a Thousand Sons.



Phoebus said:


> Please go back and re-read the section in question.


I will, but I don't think that will change my opinion. However going by the text you quoted it still has not changed my opinion, but rather renforced it.



Phoebus said:


> Russ was there when Magnus sealed the library.


Actually no, we don't know that. Russ may have been in the area, but we don't know for sure if he had been physically present. Russ landed in the city with the First Great Company, but we don't know if we was one the front lines.



Phoebus said:


> It is, no offense, disingenuous to assert that he would assume his warriors dead when they weren't.


No, I doubt Russ would have been familar with the effects and retraint of the Thousand Sons, given his clear doubt. Even if he had been present he might not have known if they where alive or not.



Phoebus said:


> That's fine, we all hear things that are wrong sometimes. That having been said, "blood on one's hand" is defined and understood, within the English language, as responsibility and/or guilt related to someone else's death. Any cursory search of idiom databases, dictionaries with said idioms, or the extant pool of journalistic articles and literary work will reveal this. Sometimes the examples involve histrionics (such as Sarah Palin having blood on her hands on account of the AZ shootings), and sometimes they involve things we might not consider pertinent (e.g., you having blood on your hands on account of not being a vegetarian or vegan). Death and the responsibility or guilt that comes with, however, is always what's behind the idiom.


Then if we are going by that defnition most likely Russ was referring to the Wolves slain in the second confronation, or he was simply confused.



Phoebus said:


> Magnus' intent was to prevent the library from being destroyed along with the rest of Heliosa. Having accomplished this, he no longer needed to use violence against the Space Wolves. Hence, his urging for restraint.


Except violence was required in order to defend his Sons against the Wolves assault.



Phoebus said:


> Again, this simply does not reconcile with the fact that he felt the need to argue semantics about sorcery, necromancy, etc.


Magnus correcting Russ about what he considers his pride would be perfectly in character. Magnus would not have to justify the ''dead space wolves'' if he had not killed any. Or maybe he simply did't get the chance to explain when Lorgar appeared. Or maybe he knew Russ was trying to provoke him over a lie.



Phoebus said:


> Ahriman then runs into Magnus and Phosis T'Kar. By this time, and before the Space Wolves' attack, Magnus has already fought the Space Wolves once--the same ones that were descending with Russ--and sealed the Library.


I already know that.



Phoebus said:


> It simply makes no sense that there was absolutely no fight around the Library but, nonetheless, the Space Wolves' 5th Great Company would all-out attack the Thousand Sons. Clearly blood was shed at the Library, and clearly Russ felt that said blood-taking was initiated by Magnus--since the Cyclopean never bothers to refute this.


Actually the fact that there was no fight aroudn the Library further renforces my belief that there was no blood shed. Russ's own beliefs are also compounded by his feud with Magnus and belief that Magnus is spying on him.

So no, I do not believe any Space Wolf Astartes where killed.



Phoebus said:


> In any case, Leman Russ had command over the War of Compliance against Heliosa.


Really? Why? I don't recall Leman Russ outranking Magnus at all. The only people ot outrank Magnus to my knowledge would be The Emperor and the Warmaster. Last time I checked Russ was not Warmaster.



Phoebus said:


> Right or wrong, if he told Magnus he was taking control of the Library, basic military doctrine indicates that the latter would need to step aside.


No, Russ's self-proclaimed authority should not affect Magnus (His equal) at all. Russ is not the Warmaster.

And we don't have any indication that Russ told Magnus he was taking control over the Library. I don't have my copy with me right now, but Magnus appeared to arrive there independantly.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> The necromancy as far as I'm aware only appeare din Prospero Burns when Abnett used it. And the only Thousand Sons to argue in that book was a daemon pretending to be a Thousand Sons.


I'm not sure I understand you. I'm directly referring to "A Thousand Sons", from the argument Magnus and Russ have with Lorgar between them, after the fight in which one of the Sons mutates:

_“That is more than just unstable gene-seed, it is sorcery. You know it as well as I. We all knew Magnus was mired in the black arts, but we turned a blind eye to it because he was our brother. Well, no more, Lorgar, no more. Every warrior of that Legion is tainted, wielders of spellcraft and necromancy.”
“Necromancy?” scoffed Magnus. “You know nothing.”
“I know enough,” spat Russ. “You have gone too far, Magnus. This is where it ends.”_

So, again. It's unreasonable to argue that Magnus would be willing to ignore accusations of him killing Astartes but would instead embark on arguments of other topics.



> Actually the fact that there was no fight aroudn the Library further renforces my belief that there was no blood shed. Russ's own beliefs are also compounded by his feud with Magnus and belief that Magnus is spying on him.


*If there was no bloodshed,* there is no reason for the 5th Great Company to attack Magnus, Ahriman, Phosis T'kar, etc.



> Really? Why? I don't recall Leman Russ outranking Magnus at all. The only people ot outrank Magnus to my knowledge would be The Emperor and the Warmaster. Last time I checked Russ was not Warmaster.


You are correct. I thought in this particular campaign Russ was stated to be the lead Primarch (kind of like Ferrus Manus at Isstvan V), but I went back and re-read the preceding chapters and this was not the case. If anything, Lorgar found the binary system they were in first.



> And we don't have any indication that Russ told Magnus he was taking control over the Library. I don't have my copy with me right now, but MAgnus appeared to arrive there independantly.


Well, when you get your copy back, check it out. The context of the 2-3 chapters detailing that invasion is rather clear. Russ and Lorgar are out to wipe out the "deviant" societies of Heliosa (deviant in the sense that they reject overtures for peace--overtures that Ahriman is never able to find on record). Magnus decides otherwise:

_"Corvidae divinations had pinpointed the location of the city’s largest repository of knowledge and history, a vast museum housed in a pyramid of silver, six hundred metres high and two kilometres wide that rose from the main body of the mountain. The similarity to the Great Library on Prospero was not lost on Magnus. ...
Leman Russ and his Space Wolves were mauling the upper echelons of the city, ... the Word Bearers and Imperial Army units ... were ... leaving little but ashes and devastation in their wake.
Nothing would be left of the city if it were not for Magnus’ restraining hand.
Phoenix Crag would not be like the other mountain cities of Heliosa, its records destroyed, its artefacts smashed and its importance forgotten. Magnus would save the history of this isolated outpost of humanity, and reclaim its place in the grand pageant of human endeavour. This world had survived the nightmare of Old Night, and deserved no less.
“Onwards, my brothers,” said Magnus. “We have a world’s legacy to save.”_

That Library was within Phoenix Crag. Russ landed atop of it, killed its guards and kings, and was pressing downhill from there, wrecking everything. Magnus was heading up the Crag with an eye to secure the Library. The two Primarchs met there.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not sure I understand you. I'm directly referring to "A Thousand Sons", from the argument Magnus and Russ have with Lorgar between them, after the fight in which one of the Sons mutates:
> 
> _“That is more than just unstable gene-seed, it is sorcery. You know it as well as I. We all knew Magnus was mired in the black arts, but we turned a blind eye to it because he was our brother. Well, no more, Lorgar, no more. Every warrior of that Legion is tainted, wielders of spellcraft and necromancy.”
> “Necromancy?” scoffed Magnus. “You know nothing.”
> ...


Actually upon actually getting to read the book I don't think Magnus ignored it. The chapter _ends_ with those words. We don't get to see Magnus's reply.

Now Russ makes a brief refrence to blood ''being spilled'' on Pg 239. However Lorgar talks before Magnus csn say anything and appears to partially adress the issue and Russ changes the topic to sorcery before that can be adressed.



Phoebus said:


> *If there was no bloodshed,* there is no reason for the 5th Great Company to attack Magnus, Ahriman, Phosis T'kar, etc.


Apart for the Wolves own grudge against the Sons and their own misguided sense of duty.



Phoebus said:


> Well, when you get your copy back, check it out. The context of the 2-3 chapters detailing that invasion is rather clear. Russ and Lorgar are out to wipe out the "deviant" societies of Heliosa (deviant in the sense that they reject overtures for peace--overtures that Ahriman is never able to find on record). Magnus decides otherwise:


No, I've re-read it. Nowhere is Russ in communication with Magnus on the world's policy. Indeed, Russ is in combat.



Phoebus said:


> That Library was within Phoenix Crag. Russ landed atop of it, killed its guards and kings, and was pressing downhill from there, wrecking everything. Magnus was heading up the Crag with an eye to secure the Library. The two Primarchs met there.


I know, I've already read it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> Actually upon actually getting to read the book I don't think Magnus ignored it. The chapter _ends_ with those words. We don't get to see Magnus's reply.


No... it doesn't. In fact, I already quoted for you some of the statements that follow. But here they are again. And this doesn't include Lorgar's own statements that precede them:

_“I will not stand by and let him destroy this world,” said Magnus, lowering his khopesh.
“It is not yours to save,” snapped Russ. ...
“Not everything is so black and white, Russ,” retorted Magnus. ...
“The point is to win it. Once it is over, we will deal with what is left.”
Magnus shook his head, saying, “What is left will be in ruins.”
... “I can live with that,” [Russ] said ...
When he reached its end, he turned to face Magnus once more.
“This is not over,” ... “Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning between us, Magnus. This I swear upon the blade of Mjalnar.”_

The above is the second of the two accusations of blood-shedding... the first one being before the sorcery chat. In neither case does Magnus respond. And as you can see, the chapter doesn't simply end with the first one.



> Apart for the Wolves own grudge against the Sons and their own misguided sense of duty.


Except for the fact that they had been fighting alongside each other for quite some time in the same theater of operations, without a single engagement... _until Magnus decided he would not let the Library be destroyed and barred Russ from doing so._



> No, I've re-read it. Nowhere is Russ in communication with Magnus on the world's policy. Indeed, Russ is in combat.


I really don't know what you're driving at here. Let's recap.

You stated that there was no indication that Russ told Magnus he was taking control over the Library. You also asserted that Magnus appeared to arrive there independently.

I quoted for you direct statements from the books that indicate Magnus was specifically going to the Library to rescue it because everything else of cultural value was being destroyed. That same quoted section also showed that Russ was heading that direction as well. Magnus himself states he stopped the Space Wolves and sealed the Library with his Scarab Occult.

What isn't clear here? Are you asserting that Magnus somehow didn't know what Leman Russ' intent was for Heliosa/Shrike/Arch Reach Secundus? Because there are plenty of quotes I can pull that indicate the opposite:

_"Magnus had arrived in expectation of acquiring treasure troves of accumulated knowledge in the wake of compliance. He was to be sorely disappointed.
Ahriman had seen a taste of the war the Space Wolves made on Aghoru, but the scale of what Russ’ Legion left in their wake was nothing short of genocide. Their single-minded savagery left no room for anything other than the foe’s complete and utter destruction."_

_"Kor Phaeron had declared vast swathes of the indigenous culture unwholesome, resulting in virtually every repository of knowledge, art, literature and history being burned to ashes."_

Russ and Magnus meet right before the final battle for the Heliosan capital. Magnus knows what Russ is like and what he intends to do, and he also knows about the Library. He resolves, as the battle is underway, to save the Library.

But, if the above are too vague to convince you that the Primarchs were talking and Magnus knew what was going to happen to Phoenix Crag... how about this one:

_"The primarchs had met the previous evening to discuss how best to assault Phoenix Crag, Leman Russ and Lorgar both eager to utterly eradicate the city, though for very different reasons. Russ simply because it stood against him, Lorgar because its ignorance of the Emperor offended him.
It would be hard to imagine three more different brothers: Russ ... and Lorgar with his altogether subtler mask that hid a face even Magnus could not fully discern. They had spoken long into the night, each of his brothers vying for the upper hand."_

So, not to be rude. You keep telling me you've read this... but can I get you to read it one more time before we continue with this debate?



> I know, I've already read it.


Then I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Magnus states flat out that he's going to save that Library. Russ and Lorgar have stated flat out that they intend to wipe out the deviant society of this world. Magnus is aware of this. He does not dispute that he stopped the Space Wolves. Russ, immediately afterwards, claims Magnus has the blood on his hands. Magnus does not dispute this.

It's rather clear cut.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> No... it doesn't..


Yes it does, the second one is the final words spoken in the chapter. We don't get to see Magnus's reply.



Phoebus said:


> _“I will not stand by and let him destroy this world,” said Magnus, lowering his khopesh.
> “It is not yours to save,” snapped Russ. ...
> “Not everything is so black and white, Russ,” retorted Magnus. ...
> “The point is to win it. Once it is over, we will deal with what is left.”
> ...


Correct, the one that ended the chapter. I already stated this.



Phoebus said:


> the first one being before the sorcery chat. In neither case does Magnus respond.


Because in the first one Lorgar spoke before Magnus could and Russ switched the topic to Sorcery.



Phoebus said:


> And as you can see, the chapter doesn't simply end with the first one.


I never said it did. I was talking about the second.



Phoebus said:


> Except for the fact that they had been fighting alongside each other for quite some time in the same theater of operations, without a single engagement... _until Magnus decided he would not let the Library be destroyed and barred Russ from doing so._


..........and? Your point? I don't see how that in the height of the battle it would prevent Skarssen's company from attacking them after being sealed off from the temple.



Phoebus said:


> I really don't know what you're driving at here. Let's recap.
> 
> You stated that there was no indication that Russ told Magnus he was taking control over the Library. You also asserted that Magnus appeared to arrive there independently.
> 
> I quoted for you direct statements from the books that indicate Magnus was specifically going to the Library to rescue it because everything else of cultural value was being destroyed. That same quoted section also showed that Russ was heading that direction as well. Magnus himself states he stopped the Space Wolves and sealed the Library with his Scarab Occult.


Correct. What's the problem here? Magnus took a different route from Russ, he never traveled with Russ on Russ's route. And Russ said he was going to destroy eradicate the city, but never specified that Magnus should stay out of the Library. They talked before the battle, but during the battle when Russ was in combat there was no communication.



Phoebus said:


> What isn't clear here? Are you asserting that Magnus somehow didn't know what Leman Russ' intent was for Heliosa/Shrike/Arch Reach Secundus?


No. I was talking about that Russ never specified that Library at all and Magnus arrived there seperate from Russ. Russ indicated a general desire to destroy all culture, but not that Magnus stay out of his way.



Phoebus said:


> Russ and Magnus meet right before the final battle for the Heliosan capital. Magnus knows what Russ is like and what he intends to do, and he also knows about the Library. He resolves, as the battle is underway, to save the Library.


Yes. I know that. What is your point?



Phoebus said:


> So, not to be rude. You keep telling me you've read this... but can I get you to read it one more time before we continue with this debate?


I have read the book. You appear to be misinterpreting my position. Russ never told Magnus should stay clear of it before the battle. Magnus went there of his own free will and intervened as Russ's equal.

That is true yes?



Phoebus said:


> Then I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Magnus states flat out that he's going to save that Library. Russ and Lorgar have stated flat out that they intend to wipe out the deviant society of this world. Magnus is aware of this. He does not dispute that he stopped the Space Wolves. Russ, immediately afterwards, claims Magnus has the blood on his hands. Magnus does not dispute this.
> 
> It's rather clear cut.


......and? Your point? I'm not objecting to any of that so I don't understand your problem.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

lol, as Commisiar Ploss stated the last time I argued with Glee... please, continue.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To be continued later tonight.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Well after reading a TS & PB I have a more balanced view (you have to read both). While I wouldn't say Magnus was evil before his acceptance of Chaos at the end. He was most certainly tainted (as was his legion) as he and his Legion flew to near the abyss. This tainting I believe blinded Magnus and the Legion to where they were heading but was like a drug they couldn't resist. His knowledge/mastery of the warp is obviously not as powerful as he believed it to be otherwise he wouldn't have been manipulated in the way he was or broke his oath to the emperor. The whole legion was potentially susceptible to evil as they had opened a door they couldn't really shut once opened and I believe this was the Emperor's true fear. For this reason they had the potentiall to pose a great threat to man & turn to Chaos fully at some stage down the road. 

On the other hand the Space Wolves were also open to manipulation although in a different way as evidenced in Prospero Burns. Ultimately the TS mastery of the warp was also their greatest weakness and you could argue they should have practised their physical martial skills more than there mental ones. This would have averted the clash and kept the Emperor happy. It would also most certainly have made Horus's treachery much more difficult. 

Ultimately I would imagine Magnus realised his true failings at the end and indeed Russ must have lamented the manipulation that brought about the destruction of a Brother Primarchs legion (and a sizeable portion of his own) at his hand although he had the Emperor's sanction and it could also be argued the battle with Magnus only accelerated what was always going to be. Magnus's final choice I would imagine offered some justification to Russ that he was right to carry out the Emperor's will. After all this was his purpose and one that no other Primarch would probably be willing to carry the burden of. I would also not be surprised if this was a function Russ had carried out before. For this reason you could argue he could have never filled the role of Warmaster as he was the Emperor's final sanction against another Primarch/Legion.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> lol, as Commisiar Ploss stated the last time I argued with Glee... please, continue.


it's Gree not Glee actually.



Phoebus said:


> To be continued later tonight.


Apologies but.... I really don't think I'm going to change my opinion on this one. (Magnus being evil. I don't really care about wheter Magnus knew Russ wanted to destroy the city, etc etc. It's not really important to me)

I'm sure we both have other things we have to do. I suggest you and I agree to disagree and move on before this thread turns into a circular argument.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> it's Gree not Glee actually.


And there in lies the joke, if I am guessing right.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> And there in lies the joke, if I am guessing right.


I thought it might be a pointless jibe? I'm not amused.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Actually, I didn't mean to put glee. Sorry Gree.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Aw, oh well. You guys are no fun.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It was kind of funny. I got my name made fun of a little to during active duty. Crawdaddy. I just embrace it now.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I gotta say I'm with gen.ahab on this one:



gen.ahab said:


> Personally I subscribe more to that theory than to the one that says he was evil. Magnus was simple a man who was to naive or to stupid to realize he was in way over his head. He thought he could control the warp, bend it to his will, but he didn't realized that the warp is utter chaos and by definition cannot be tamed. Admittedly, he had pure intentions, but he stepped over the line and fell, that's it.


The problem was basically Magnus's towering ego. He had good intentions when he mucked about with the warp, but he was so convinced of his own superior intellect and abilities that the thought that he could be wrong simply never occured to him. 

There's a good example of his ego when he talks about how he and the Emperor took trips into the warp together. He says something about the student (him) being on the verge of surpassing the master (the Emperor). That bit alone shows how truly arrogant Magnus was to think that he, someone who's been around for a few centuries, knows more about the warp than someone who's been around for several thousand years.

The bottom line is Magnus tried playing with the big boys (Tzeentch etc.) and only realised that he was in way over his head when it was far too late to change anything (Tzeentch must have laughed his ass of at the irony of this).

Something that has been bothering me though; it's established in _A Thousand Sons_ that the Emperor never really lost contact with Magnus. So why the fuck did it take him so long to get to Prospero when he knew in what dire straits the Thousand Sons were? When Ahriman confronts Magnus about what he did, Magnus mentions that he did what he had to because at that point the degradation of the geneseed had become too extreme to fix. To me this implies that it might have been possible to do something less extreme if the Sons had been brought to him sooner. But then again, a lot of the factors that fed the heresy were made possible because of the Emperor's bad decisions.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> He says something about the student (him) being on the verge of surpassing the master (the Emperor). That bit alone shows how truly arrogant Magnus was ...


That's nothing really new, though. The idea that the Emperor was matched--or exceeded in some cases--by his sons in terms of power goes back to the early editions.



> The bottom line is Magnus tried playing with the big boys (Tzeentch etc.) and only realised that he was in way over his head when it was far too late to change anything (Tzeentch must have laughed his ass of at the irony of this).


Mayhaps the Emperor also felt the same way? 



> Something that has been bothering me though; it's established in _A Thousand Sons_ that the Emperor never really lost contact with Magnus. So why the fuck did it take him so long to get to Prospero when he knew in what dire straits the Thousand Sons were?


Logistical considerations that could have endangered the Crusading forces perhaps?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

or more pressing matters like finding Horus? maybe he thought that Magnus didn't need his total attention as he was in touch with hiim and would arrive when he had done whatever it was he needed to too.

what i don't get is this, then the emperor arrives, its usually with the leigon that will belong to the Primarch and said found soun usually gives them thier names....dd the original brothers of what beacme the Thousand Sons suffer with the flesh change or was that those that hailed from Prospero alone?


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Magnus always danced to Tzeentch's tune unknowingly, evil was his destiny, but imo he stayed loyal till finding himself with a terrible case of back pain.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Before the book _A Thousand Sons_, I remember someone in GW was explaining all the stories about how each primarch fell. This must have been almost a decade ago.

He explained how Magnus fell. And even then his story kind of was a sorry one. But then the guy told me that it was possible, since Magnus was the most powerful and gifted psyker next to the Emperor, that Magnus saw these events coming. Thats what would explain why he did the terrible things the way he did. 

I still think about this despite the book coming out for some reason. I feel like a little boy who's dad just explained to him why he shouldn't do something and am doing it anyway. I think its because even though I read the book, I still ask why the fuck Magnus would do something so devastating to the Emperor and the Imperium. 

I mean, if you look at the accomplishments of what all the traitor primarchs did against the Imperium, Magnus' remains the most devastating. Its like, thanks for warning us, but you just fucked us anyway.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree with you, had it not been for Magnus, the Emperor himself may have taken command of the siege. Why did Magnus do it? Arrogance I believe. There's few primarchs more arrogant than the Crimson King, although perhaps he didn't realise just how much he was. He likely believed his message would be safe as houses and not harm anything, so sure he was with his own power. Like some others I belive Tzeentch may have upped the juice of his spell to cause such devastation, Tzeentch had Bernard manipulating and increasing the power of Magnus and the Thousand Sons since they began, seems logical he would take that opportunity to fuck the Emperor up a bit and condemn Magnus and his legion at the same time.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Well one thing many must consider when discussinig the taint and the intentions of any primarch is this.

If you read the original fluff on the primarchs creation its say that when the big 4 took the primarchs away they couldn't fully destroy them because of the emperor's protections bestowed on them. So instead chaos had touched each and every primarch in some way before spreading them everywhere. This inturn makes every primarch fallibale in some way. 
Magnus - obsession for knowledge 
Fulgrim - Vanity and perfection
Angron - do i really need to point this one out honestly
Curze - torrmented by visions of the future 
ect. ect. I think you get the point. (sorry if I didn't include any non-traitors these were the fresh names in my mind)

If you really think about it the big E created these primarchs to serve a single purpose and what is to say that he would abbandon them all once he accomplished his goal. 

This really all how you interparte the writing of the fluff. Remeber the way I read it is not going to fully match what another person. 

God if a philospher read this stuff he would prolly be able to find all the metaphors and hidden answers with in the books


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't think he was more evil than portrayed, but he was definitely arrogant and obsessed with mastering the Warp 

when the Emperor told him to stop, he probably thought the Emperor was underestimating his abilities...in fact he was overestimating himself


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> Yes it does, the second one is the final words spoken in the chapter. We don't get to see Magnus's reply.
> ...
> Correct, the one that ended the chapter. I already stated this.
> ...
> I never said it did. I was talking about the second.


Given that when you said "it ends with those words" you were responding to me citing the FIRST time Russ accuses Magnus, you can understand my confusion.

Bottom line, the book clearly states that Russ was on his way to the library. It also clearly states that Magnus stops him, and that, prior to this, he was aware of the Library's existence and determined to preserve it. He admits he stopped the Space Wolves. Russ tells him that he has "blood of Fenris" on his hands.

Your argument against this seems to center on (A) a misapplication of the English language (what blood on one's hands means) or (B) the idea that Fenrisian wolves were killed (and not Astartes). No offense, but I don't see how either can be deemed plausible. Where (B) is concerned especially, Lorgar has no way of knowing that Fenrisian wolves ...



... might be Astartes who became Wulfen and in turn became wolves.


The idea that Russ was about to fight Magnus over dead wolves would have been ludicrous to him.



> ..........and? Your point? I don't see how that in the height of the battle it would prevent Skarssen's company from attacking them after being sealed off from the temple.


Man, what are you talking about? You tried to offer reasoning on why Skarssen's would attack the Sons. I pointed out that they had co-existed for months without violence. Without the context of the STATED engagement between Magnus and the 2nd Fellowship against Russ and the First Great Company, there's absolutely no reason for an attack. You're inventing a situation out of whole cloth, brother!

Yes. I know that. What is your point?



> I have read the book. You appear to be misinterpreting my position. Russ never told Magnus should stay clear of it before the battle. Magnus went there of his own free will and intervened as Russ's equal.


No, you are correct--I both misinterpreted your position/statements and got side-tracked on a side-topic that was virtually of my own making. :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Interesting. you wish to continue a circular argument. I guess I'm forced to respond then.



Phoebus said:


> Given that when you said "it ends with those words" you were responding to me citing the FIRST time Russ accuses Magnus, you can understand my confusion.


I only ever meant the second time he stated that.



Phoebus said:


> Where (B) is concerned especially, Lorgar has no way of knowing that Fenrisian wolves ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... might be Astartes who became Wulfen and in turn became wolves.


Lorgar was responding to Russ. He would have had to take russ's word for it.



Phoebus said:


> The idea that Russ was about to fight Magnus over dead wolves would have been ludicrous to him.


I don't see why it would be. The Wolves where always close to their Wolves.



Phoebus said:


> Man, what are you talking about? You tried to offer reasoning on why Skarssen's would attack the Sons. I pointed out that they had co-existed for months without violence. Without the context of the STATED engagement between Magnus and the 2nd Fellowship against Russ and the First Great Company, there's absolutely no reason for an attack. You're inventing a situation out of whole cloth, brother!


No, I'm afraid I don't see how. It's perfectly reasonable to me, that the Wolves in frustration of being blocked from destroying more propey would be caught up in bloodlust. I don't recall the Thousand Sons confronting the Wolves about that before in the war, so matters must thave come to a head.



Phoebus said:


> Yes. I know that. What is your point?


That I don't see how such a thing would prevent Skarrsen attacking the Sons over some preceived slight.



Phoebus said:


> No, you are correct--I both misinterpreted your position/statements and got side-tracked on a side-topic that was virtually of my own making. :biggrin:


Thank you, I'm glad you agree.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> Interesting. you wish to continue a circular argument. I guess I'm forced to respond then.


You're not forced to do anything, friend. Nor, last I checked, was this an argument. 



> Lorgar was responding to Russ. He would have had to take russ's word for it.


In no way does Russ ever reveal to Lorgar what was in my spoiler block. Lorgar would have to take Russ' word for it that either plain old wolves or ASTARTES died. If he had thought Russ was talking about wolves, he would have dismissed his accusations out of hand. Had Magnus not attacked him first at the FIRST engagement, and Russ' dead wolves had thus died from an unprovoked attack against the Thousand Sons, he would have had no reason to console him or paint it as a misunderstanding.



> I don't see why it would be. The Wolves where always close to their Wolves.


Even if those sentiments were true, Lorgar in no way shares them.



> No, I'm afraid I don't see how. It's perfectly reasonable to me, that the Wolves in frustration of being blocked from destroying more propey would be caught up in bloodlust. I don't recall the Thousand Sons confronting the Wolves about that before in the war, so matters must thave come to a head.


Perfectly reasonable to assume that there was no engagement at a time when Magnus states he had to stop the Wolves, and that Russ is not talking about blood spilled at that encounter--in which he was present--but that he off-handedly notices dead wolves where Skarssen attacked and uses them as justification for accusation of murder? And, concurrently, that Skarssen simply got caught up in bloodlust, even though throughout this novel and the next the Wolves are described as the model of controlled aggression?

By contrast, we have Magnus admitting that he was forced to stop the Wolves, at a time and place when Russ was present. We have a confrontation that causes Russ to erupt in a psychic furor. Immediately afterwards, Skarssen and the Wolves engage in force--something they have never done before. And then Russ arrives, and accuses Magnus of shedding Fenrisian blood.

If it had been a case of the former (paragraph), Lorgar would have laughed at Russ' face. "Wait, so, Magnus DIDN'T attack you, but your warriors simply got angry and attacked Magnus' warriors, and now you're upset because your wolves got killed?" Yeah. Lorgar wouldn't have consoled Russ. Had he not already turned traitor, he would have reported Russ for censure.

Sorry, man. There's nothing circular about this.



> That I don't see how such a thing would prevent Skarrsen attacking the Sons over some preceived slight.


That was a part of your post that I forgot to delete. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> You're not forced to do anything, friend.


Nope. I have to reply to everything directed at me. It's how I always operated and how I always will operate. My sense of netiquette ogligates me to respond to any and all posts directed at me. It's a personal habit of mine. I will keep on responding to any posts directed at me until the argument is resolved.



Phoebus said:


> Nor, last I checked, was this an argument.


It is to me. I raised a point and you refuted it. I never saw it as anything but an argument.



Phoebus said:


> In no way does Russ ever reveal to Lorgar what was in my spoiler block. .


Correct. I am not contesting that point.



Phoebus said:


> If he had thought Russ was talking about wolves, he would have dismissed his accusations out of hand.


Why would he? Fenrisians value their Wolves highly. I thought that was rather common knowledge.



Phoebus said:


> Had Magnus not attacked him first at the FIRST engagement, and Russ' dead wolves had thus died from an unprovoked attack against the Thousand Sons, he would have had no reason to console him or paint it as a misunderstanding.


I have a feeling Lorgar would have painted it as a misunderstanding regardless of who attacked first. His entire behavior seemed like he did't want a fight to happen.



Phoebus said:


> Even if those sentiments were true, Lorgar in no way shares them.


And how do you know that? I asumme Lorgar being diplomatic would take that into consideration.



Phoebus said:


> Perfectly reasonable to assume that there was no engagement at a time when Magnus states he had to stop the Wolves, and that Russ is not talking about blood spilled at that encounter--in which he was present--but that he off-handedly notices dead wolves where Skarssen attacked and uses them as justification for accusation of murder?


Correct. Seems reasonable to me.



Phoebus said:


> And, concurrently, that Skarssen simply got caught up in bloodlust, even though throughout this novel and the next the Wolves are described as the model of controlled aggression?


Described as a model of controlled agression? I recall a statement somewhere about once you let the Wolves loose you don't call them back. Read Pg 101 where Khalophis talks about how they will destroy everything in their way. He even says that the Iron Warriors are a better example of controlled agression.

So yes. It seems perfectly plausible to me that they would do that.



Phoebus said:


> By contrast, we have Magnus admitting that he was forced to stop the Wolves, at a time and place when Russ was present. We have a confrontation that causes Russ to erupt in a psychic furor. Immediately afterwards, Skarssen and the Wolves engage in force--something they have never done before. And then Russ arrives, and accuses Magnus of shedding Fenrisian blood.
> 
> If it had been a case of the former (paragraph), Lorgar would have laughed at Russ' face. "Wait, so, Magnus DIDN'T attack you, but your warriors simply got angry and attacked Magnus' warriors, and now you're upset because your wolves got killed?" Yeah. Lorgar wouldn't have consoled Russ. Had he not already turned traitor, he would have reported Russ for censure.


I'm going to have to disagree here with you again. I don't think Lorgar would be so heavy-handed as to laugh in his brother's face like that. Going off First Heretic he seemed to have been rather close to Russ.

So yes. I stick by to my opinion. Going off by the Wolves behavior in the novel it seems logical to me that they would attack the Sons if they got in their way. Khalophis even warns us about it. I just don't believe any Space Wolf Astartes where killed.



Phoebus said:


> Sorry, man. There's nothing circular about this.


Yes it is. You are going to continue with your argument and I'm going to reply back. I believe I've already stated earlier in the thread that I'm quite set in my opinion and I'm not going to change it. 
At this point I'm replying only because your directing posts at me. I have other things I would much rather be doing right now.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> At this point I'm replying only because your directing posts at me. I have other things I would much rather be doing right now.


Apparently not. If you had something better to do or wanted to do something better than you would be doing it, there is no one forcing you to replay, yet you do it anyway. You made the choice to reply to it instead of ignoring it. You are pushing the debate just as much as he is at this point. k:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Apparently not. If you had something better to do or wanted to do something better than you would be doing it, there is no one forcing you to replay, yet you do it anyway. You made the choice to reply to it instead of ignoring it. You are pushing the debate just as much as he is at this point. k:


Again no. My own sense of duty has me reply to everything directed at me. I can't contemplate doing anything else, even if I dislike the debate. I have college work to finish writing, models to paint and stories to finish. I really would rather be devoting time to those instead of constantly watching this place in order to defend myself.

Truthfully I've lost interest in this debate a while ago, but my conscience won't let me have posts go unaswered.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> It is to me. I raised a point and you refuted it. I never saw it as anything but an argument.


Funny, I saw it as a discussion, or as a debate.



> Why would he? Fenrisians value their Wolves highly. I thought that was rather common knowledge.


Irrelevant. If Magnus had not attacked Russ at the Library, and Russ in turn accused Magnus of killing anything after Skarrsen attacked him without provocation, he would have had no case to argue.



> I have a feeling Lorgar would have painted it as a misunderstanding regardless of who attacked first. His entire behavior seemed like he did't want a fight to happen.


There's no doubt over the last part. It's the idea that Russ was complaining about losses suffered by Skarssen in what would have been an unprovoked attack (if we go by your theory) that falls flat. Lorgar would have had no reason to mollify both sides if only ONE was responsible for aggression.



> And how do you know that? I asumme Lorgar being diplomatic would take that into consideration.


See above.



> Correct. Seems reasonable to me.


Reasonable that Skarssen attacked without provocation and without a previous encounter? Sounds lunatic to me. It approaches plausibility only if we accept the Space Wolves as uncontrollable berserkers, which "A Thousand Sons" hints they're not and "Prospero Burns" confirms they're not. They're ruthless, but only in their execution--not in their lack of control.



> Described as a model of controlled agression? I recall a statement somewhere about once you let the Wolves loose you don't call them back. Read Pg 101 where Khalophis talks about how they will destroy everything in their way. He even says that the Iron Warriors are a better example of controlled agression.


That's the impression of someone from the outside looking in. When we get the actual scoop from the Wolves themselves, it's a completely different matter. And McNeill himself puts hints that the picture you describe is not as it seems throughout the book.

As for everything else... meaning no offense to you, that sounds borderline like compulsive-obsessive behavior.

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Again no. My own sense of duty has me reply to everything directed at me. I can't contemplate doing anything else, even if I dislike the debate. I have college work to finish writing, models to paint and stories to finish. I really would rather be devoting time to those instead of constantly watching this place in order to defend myself.
> 
> Truthfully I've lost interest in this debate a while ago, but my conscience won't let me have posts go unaswered.


Then your antiquated sense of duty is more important to you than your work, which would seem to suggest making said reply is more important. 

And yes, you are. You're 50% of that debate; if you quit he quits. Simple. You could simple say that you will agree to disagree. Both of you leave it be and that's the end of it. But no, you continue to press the debate and then end saying you don't want to debate it anymore. Basically, you want to make your point, but you don't want him to refute it. You are asking him to do what you refuse to do.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Funny, I saw it as a discussion, or as a debate.


Then I'm afraid we differ there. I don't see this as a debate at all, but rather a tiresome argument that I have to respond to. 



Phoebus said:


> .
> Irrelevant. If Magnus had not attacked Russ at the Library, and Russ in turn accused Magnus of killing anything after Skarrsen attacked him without provocation, he would have had no case to argue.


No, I don't believe that. To a Space Wolf an attack on one of their pets could be viewed rather highly.



Phoebus said:


> There's no doubt over the last part. It's the idea that Russ was complaining about losses suffered by Skarssen in what would have been an unprovoked attack (if we go by your theory) that falls flat. Lorgar would have had no reason to mollify both sides if only ONE was responsible for aggression.


I think he would. Regardless if one side attacked another I don't think Lorgar would have wanted a direct battle at that point.



Phoebus said:


> Reasonable that Skarssen attacked without provocation and without a previous encounter? Sounds lunatic to me.


Then that's your opinion.



Phoebus said:


> Reasonable that Skarssen attacked without provocation and without a previous encounter? Sounds lunatic to me. It approaches plausibility only if we accept the Space Wolves as uncontrollable berserkers, which "A Thousand Sons" hints they're not and "Prospero Burns" confirms they're not. They're ruthless, but only in their execution--not in their lack of control.


N, I do believe Thousand Sons actually hints the opposite. As for Prospero Burns......



Phoebus said:


> That's the impression of someone from the outside looking in. When we get the actual scoop from the Wolves themselves, it's a completely different matter.


I take much of what the Wolves say about themselves with a grain of salt honestly. Reading Prospero Burns the Wolves hype themselves up alot. Or at leat Hawser does. Regardless, I'm not intrested in the Wolves opinion of themselves.



Phoebus said:


> And McNeill himself puts hints that the picture you describe is not as it seems throughout the book.


I'm sorry, I never got that impression.



gen.ahab said:


> Then your antiquated sense of duty is more important to you than your work, which would seem to suggest making said reply is more important.


No, I consider the other work to be more important. It's just that I literally cannot stop myself from replying to posts directed at me.



gen.ahab said:


> And yes, you are.


And no, no I'm not.



gen.ahab said:


> You're 50% of that debate; if you quit he quits. Simple. You could simple say that you will agree to disagree. Both of you leave it be and that's the end of it.


I already made an appeal for that earlier in the thread, did't you read that? I recived no reply to it. It's post 34.



gen.ahab said:


> But no, you continue to press the debate and then end saying you don't want to debate it anymore. Basically, you want to make your point, but you don't want him to refute it. You are asking him to do what you refuse to do.


No. I don't care if he refutes it or not. I don't want to continue this debate really, but I will reply regardless. Phoebus has not replied at all to my earlier post asking to ''agree to disagree''. Therefore I am forced to continue this tiresome argument.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There was definetly another encounter we didn't see. On pg.227 _A Thousand Sons_ :
"The warriors at the end of the causeway lowered their bolters at his approach, and Ahriman saw wide gouges torn in their shoulder guards. These were not the neat slices of shrike claws, they were the maim-wounds of chainswords."

So there has clearly already been a melee encounter with the Wolves. Why else would Russ have let loose his howl of psychic rage, i always took it as the Wolves reached the library either before, after or at the same time as Magnus, they were fought off, possibly even killed, the survivors, if any, pulled back to Skarssensson who voxed Russ of what had occured, to which Russ got supremely fucked off and let loose his howl


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> I take much of what the Wolves say about themselves with a grain of salt honestly. Reading Prospero Burns the Wolves hype themselves up alot. Or at leat Hawser does. Regardless, I'm not intrested in the Wolves opinion of themselves.


I wouldn't quite agree with that statement. In truth the Wolves don't say much about themselves in Prospero Burns. It's all through Hawser's eyes as you say but really he has no affinity for them until the later chapters. I actually think Hawser has distain for them as much as some of the others they interact with for quite a while throughout the book.

Once Hawser steps up to the plate and also realises being a SW is no easy life. He learns to accept them for what they are, what they do & the whole culture. In turn his respect grows. In a way it's a bit similar to Tom Cruise in the last Samurai. Hawser is very much a third class citizen to them through most of the book. In a way it's a shame the way things end for Hawser.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chimaera said:


> I wouldn't quite agree with that statement. In truth the Wolves don't say much about themselves in Prospero Burns. It's all through Hawser's eyes as you say but really he has no affinity for them until the later chapters. I actually think Hawser has distain for them as much as some of the others they interact with for quite a while throughout the book.
> 
> Once Hawser steps up to the plate and also realises being a SW is no easy life. He learns to accept them for what they are, what they do & the whole culture. In turn his respect grows. In a way it's a bit similar to Tom Cruise in the last Samurai. Hawser is very much a third class citizen to them through most of the book. In a way it's a shame the way things end for Hawser.


I agree, _Prospero Burns_ didn't side so much with one legion to the extent that _A Thousand Sons_ did.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree, _Prospero Burns_ didn't side so much with one legion to the extent that _A Thousand Sons_ did.


QFT

The one surprising thing in Prospero Burns for me was that Russ treated Hawser with respect when he met him even though he could have been the SW's undoing. He certainly wasn't the ape depicted in other portrayals. It seemed like he had an affinity for the common man and maybe this is where Logan gets the trait from. Russ seemed to understand when there was a need for fighting and authority but also when it was time to talk and show friendship to those who were loyal and showed their worth. Even at the end I think you could feel Russ lamented the decision that had to be taken.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Chimaera said:


> I wouldn't quite agree with that statement. In truth the Wolves don't say much about themselves in Prospero Burns. It's all through Hawser's eyes as you say but really he has no affinity for them until the later chapters. I actually think Hawser has distain for them as much as some of the others they interact with for quite a while throughout the book.


I'm talking about statements like ''There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can match the Rout in single combat.'' Which is clear bunk as we've seen Wolves be beaten in single combat in multiple other sources. Hawser's portrayal of them in later chapters is paticularly full of those kinds of things.

Anyway we see the Wolves talk about themselves through Haweser's eyes. That is what I was referring to. Whatever the Wolves say I take with a grain of salt.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

When were the Wolves ever beaten as a legion?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> When were the Wolves ever beaten as a legion?


First of all I was talking about _single combat_ in the quote. We've seen Wolves lose in single combat in multiple novels.

If you want to see if they where ever beaten as a Legion they where getting beaten by the Alpha Legion in Collected Visions until renforcements arrived.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> First of all I was talking about _single combat_ in the quote. We've seen Wolves lose in single combat in multiple novels.


I really don't think your making your point here. So what? They can be beaten. The thing is that this legion was created to be the so called "executioner" of the legions.

Besides that, if there was one military force that Horus was afraid of, it was the Wolves of Fenris.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> If you want to see if they where ever beaten as a Legion they where getting beaten by the Alpha Legion in Collected Visions until renforcements arrived.


After they had all but annihilated the Sons, maybe, but even so they were not beaten as a legion.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I really don't think your making your point here. So what? They can be beaten. The thing is that this legion was created to be the so called "executioner" of the legions.


My point was that there was alot of ''hype'' statements in the book that where not actually true at all.



ckcrawford said:


> Besides that, if there was one military force that Horus was afraid of, it was the Wolves of Fenris.


That's what stated in the novel. However in Collected Visions Horus actually states the opposite. When he hears that the Legions are coming to Terra at the climax of the seige he actually dismisses the Wolves and states that the Ultramarines and the Dark angels are a greater threat.



gen.ahab said:


> After they had all but annihilated the Sons, maybe, but even so they were not beaten as a legion.


First of all the Wolves had the deck heavily stacked in their favor for the attack on Prospero. However that's not the point. Collected Visions has them getting pounded pretty hard. Khan's descision not to assit them is portrayed then as rather pivotal.

But let me tell you this, exactly how many Legions where not beaten as a Legion in whole against another Legion?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> My point was that there was alot of ''hype'' statements in the book that where not actually true at all.


which ones where the ones that bothered you the most?




Gree said:


> That's what stated in the novel. However in Collected Visions Horus actually states the opposite. When he hears that the Legions are coming to Terra at the climax of the seige he actually dismisses the Wolves and states that the Ultramarines and the Dark angels are a greater threat.


The _Collected Visions_ book is written in the perspective of Imperial Scholars. Graham McNeill even compares the writing of it as being exagerated and bias like the movie "300." 

The Wolves are an interesting story here. For one, they have lost a good fraction of their number anhilating an entire legion into a chapter. And two, the Wolves fleet was heavily ambushed by the Alpha Legion. We don't know who or what other players were involved in this. 

For one, I think its fair to say that any fully equiped legion like the Ultramarines and/or Dark Angels, is better than a legion that just got into engagements with two other legions. After these two encounters, I think its fair to say this legion was combat ineffective against the Traitor legions as a whole. 

But we need not forget that they were threat enough to which Horus had to deal with them first.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> which ones where the ones that bothered you the most?


The stuff about the Wolves being superior to every other astartes one on one. Stuff about them being Legion killers. Honestly to me it smacks of the Mat Ward syndrome.



ckcrawford said:


> The _Collected Visions_ book is written in the perspective of Imperial Scholars. Graham McNeill even compares the writing of it as being exagerated and bias like the movie "300."


Mcneill did't write it however. Alan Merret did. Did you get that quote from an email?

And I would point out that Hawser himself is a greatly biased sorce as are the Wolves. Every Legion thinks of themselves as punishingly badass when compared to others.




ckcrawford said:


> The Wolves are an interesting story here. For one, they have lost a good fraction of their number anhilating an entire legion into a chapter. And two, the Wolves fleet was heavily ambushed by the Alpha Legion. We don't know who or what other players were involved in this.
> 
> For one, I think its fair to say that any fully equiped legion like the Ultramarines and/or Dark Angels, is better than a legion that just got into engagements with two other legions. After these two encounters, I think its fair to say this legion was combat ineffective against the Traitor legions as a whole.
> 
> But we need not forget that they were threat enough to which Horus had to deal with them first.


Not really. I have't seen anything outside the novel that would suggest such a thing, and honestly the only source we have that from is a daemon's statement. And I always take a daemon's word with a big pinch of salt.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> The stuff about the Wolves being superior to every other astartes one on one. Stuff about them being Legion killers. Honestly to me it smacks of the Mat Ward syndrome.


thats fair enough. But it would depend on what it means by "superior." In terms of their contributions to the Great Crusade comparribly to other legions? Obviously not. But they may know how to fight other astartes better than most legions.



> Mcneill did't write it however. Alan Merret did. Did you get that quote from an email?
> 
> And I would point out that Hawser himself is a greatly biased sorce as are the Wolves. Every Legion thinks of themselves as punishingly badass when compared to others.


Yes I did. I think I mentioned to you before. I wouldn't say every legion thinks they are better than other legions. Ferrus Manus for example was humble enough in Fulgrim to acknowledge his imperfection and his need for Fulgrim's help.





Gree said:


> Not really. I have't seen anything outside the novel that would suggest such a thing, and honestly the only source we have that from is a daemon's statement. And I always take a daemon's word with a big pinch of salt.


Though this is true, you should think about it. Why would the daemon lie about such a thing? Is there something to gain? You have to understand that the daemon isn't actually real. And the author put the daemon and what he said in the novel for a reason. The author especially someone like Dan Abnett, isn't trying to fuck with you.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> thats fair enough. But it would depend on what it means by "superior." In terms of their contributions to the Great Crusade comparribly to other legions? Obviously not. But they may know how to fight other astartes better than most legions.


Hawser states that no Astartes can outmatch a warrior of the Rout one-on-one. This is obviously false as a Space wolf loses in single combat to an Ultramarine in Battle of the Abyss, and Space Wolves lose to single Thousand Sons in A Thousand Sons. That's just from the Heresy series. I'm sure I can get more examples if I flip through the various stories set int he 41st millenium.



ckcrawford said:


> Yes I did. I think I mentioned to you before. I wouldn't say every legion thinks they are better than other legions. Ferrus Manus for example was humble enough in Fulgrim to acknowledge his imperfection and his need for Fulgrim's help.


I thought that quote was about Legion numbers and about what McNeill wrote, not what Merret wrote.

As for the whole arrogance thing. I fanything I consider Manus to be an exception to that sort of thing, and even then the Iron Hands despise inperfection in other Astartes according to their IA article.



ckcrawford said:


> Though this is true, you should think about it. Why would the daemon lie about such a thing? Is there something to gain? You have to understand that the daemon isn't actually real. And the author put the daemon and what he said in the novel for a reason. The author especially someone like Dan Abnett, isn't trying to fuck with you.


I'm looking at this from an in-universe perspective. In an in-universe perspective daemons lie and twist the truth all the time.

As for Abnett putting the daemon in their for a reason.....it's a Space Wolf novel. Going off from the material published by both authors for each book fo the duology, both have stated that each book was intended to be biased twords each Legion. (And they suceeded).

Honestly the Wolves have shown nothing outside this novel, or even outside their own opinions or Hawser's perspective that would justify such a thing.

I understand what Abnett was going for, but I did't like his handling of it or the execution of the concept.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Hawser states that no Astartes can outmatch a warrior of the Rout one-on-one. This is obviously false as a Space wolf loses in single combat to an Ultramarine in Battle of the Abyss, and Space Wolves lose to single Thousand Sons in A Thousand Sons. That's just from the Heresy series. I'm sure I can get more examples if I flip through the various stories set int he 41st millenium.


What Hawser says about that, anyone can refute. I mean seriously. How many legions has Hawser really stuck with and investigated? The purpose of _Prospero Burns_ was more to show the importance of the Wolves legion in the Heresy. I wouldn't go as far to say perspective. Unfortunatley the only authors I consider to write from a certain perspective are Graham McNeill and Ben Counter. Dan Abnett writes from a larger perspective. 




Gree said:


> As for the whole arrogance thing. I fanything I consider Manus to be an exception to that sort of thing, and even then the Iron Hands despise inperfection in other Astartes according to their IA article.


They do despise imperfection, but its a fault and failure they have to accept. Especially since they are indeed human, and they love the machine thing.





Gree said:


> I'm looking at this from an in-universe perspective. In an in-universe perspective daemons lie and twist the truth all the time.
> 
> As for Abnett putting the daemon in their for a reason.....it's a Space Wolf novel. Going off from the material published by both authors for each book fo the duology, both have stated that each book was intended to be biased twords each Legion. (And they suceeded).
> 
> ...


I respect the fact that you looking at it like that. I think I try to do that sometimes. But indeed we should identify what the authors purpose in the novel is. For example, the novel is in the Heresy Series and they are trying to explain it. If it was a comic book about different perspectives then I'd be a bit more skeptical. But these things come like 4 times a year. So I think its safe that these novels are a bunch of facts. 

On example, and its kinda of a spoiler but not really. You'll find out as time goes by, is _Fallen Angel_ and the pieces about him being loyal or not loyal as the series goes by. You question the book.... but why? Only to find out, that it was written for a reason. And not just to waste your time. The Heresy Series is something that should definitely be treated with respect and fact. (more fact than the most fluff). They aren't trying to bullshit the readers and fan base... at least not yet. 

If your trying to make sense of the novels, and are having a hard time determining what is fact and what is not, along with the rest of the fluff, I seriously would take the point of view of the Heresy Novels. But thats just my advise.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I respect the fact that you looking at it like that. I think I try to do that sometimes. But indeed we should identify what the authors purpose in the novel is. For example, the novel is in the Heresy Series and they are trying to explain it. If it was a comic book about different perspectives then I'd be a bit more skeptical. But these things come like 4 times a year. So I think its safe that these novels are a bunch of facts.
> 
> On example, and its kinda of a spoiler but not really. You'll find out as time goes by, is _Fallen Angel_ and the pieces about him being loyal or not loyal as the series goes by. You question the book.... but why? Only to find out, that it was written for a reason. And not just to waste your time. The Heresy Series is something that should definitely be treated with respect and fact. (more fact than the most fluff). They aren't trying to bullshit the readers and fan base... at least not yet.
> 
> If your trying to make sense of the novels, and are having a hard time determining what is fact and what is not, along with the rest of the fluff, I seriously would take the point of view of the Heresy Novels. But thats just my advise.


I know that each novel has a point, and I understand Abnett's purpose with Propsero Burns (Although I would have liked to see the novel taken in another direction, however that's just my opinion and not really relevant ot he conversation.) I just dislike the idea honestly. It came off to me of ''We are better than other astartes!'' even if that was'nt nessecarily Abnett's intention.


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