# Garviel Loken (SPOLIERS)



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Does anyone know how he dies? He becomes one of the forefathers of the Grey Knights and then what? Does anyone know what happens to him beyond this point?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nothing is certain just yet. Yes he's being set up as one of the first grand masters of the Grey Knights, but there are still years of the Heresy to go, he could still get killed before then, decide not to do it etc etc.

If he does end up being a Grey Knight, he could be Janus for all we know(I think Garro will be though), and unless they do more Knights stories after the Heresy has ended, then we'll never know.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I say he probably gets killed by Horus or a Sons of Horus VIP.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

locustgate said:


> I say he probably gets killed by Horus or a Sons of Horus VIP.


I would be very displeased if that were to happen.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

I think Garvi is still alive in the "present" 40k. I think he will be the answer to question he was asked by Mersadie Oliton , "How long do the Astartes live?". Answer over 10k years. I think he was cursed with immortality with the other Mournival brothers when they turned on each other. I think it is Loken who will eventually kill Lucius for good. In Legion of one he called him self the "undying". He said that the peace of the grave will only be his when the scales are balanced. Until Abaddon gets clipped, there will be no balance, thus he must live on.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I think Garvi is still alive in the "present" 40k. I think he will be the answer to question he was asked by Mersadie Oliton , "How long do the Astartes live?". Answer over 10k years. I think he was cursed with immortality with the other Mournival brothers when they turned on each other. I think it is Loken who will eventually kill Lucius for good. In Legion of one he called him self the "undying". He said that the peace of the grave will only be his when the scales are balanced. Until Abaddon gets clipped, there will be no balance, thus he must live on.


SOOOoooooo OVER 9000.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I think Garvi is still alive in the "present" 40k. I think he will be the answer to question he was asked by Mersadie Oliton , "How long do the Astartes live?". Answer over 10k years. I think he was cursed with immortality with the other Mournival brothers when they turned on each other. I think it is Loken who will eventually kill Lucius for good. In Legion of one he called him self the "undying". He said that the peace of the grave will only be his when the scales are balanced. Until Abaddon gets clipped, there will be no balance, thus he must live on.



In the Grey Knights codex it mentions an undying astartes fighting in front of the Golden Throne alone to defend the Emperor. While in the codex it is referring to Anvil Thawn, could they be referring to Loken?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I sincerely hope not. He's had enough special snowflake treatment without also becoming some immortal being of legend. Bring Loken back from the dead was one of the worst moves the Heresy series has made. 

I very much hope he's not one of those who goes on to found/train the Grey Knights and instead meets his end during the Heresy.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

According to Khorne's Fist, Dan Abnett was adamant about the fact that Loken wasn't intended to die in 'Galaxy in Flames'.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been a fan of how Loken was handled _subsequently_ ("Cerberus", etc.). That having been said, I wasn't convinced that Loken had died when the building collapsed on him.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> In the Grey Knights codex it mentions an undying astartes fighting in front of the Golden Throne alone to defend the Emperor. While in the codex it is referring to Anvil Thawn, could they be referring to Loken?


You got a quote or a page #? I do think Loken was the first GK Eternal Warrior though.



Rems said:


> I sincerely hope not. He's had enough special snowflake treatment without also becoming some immortal being of legend. Bring Loken back from the dead was one of the worst moves the Heresy series has made.
> 
> I very much hope he's not one of those who goes on to found/train the Grey Knights and instead meets his end during the Heresy.


If you hated this move then what will you say when they bring back Tarvitz? I will say again that the main Characters in the opening trilogy were picked because they survived. Wanting them to stay dead wont help. Ive tried it with Erebus.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rems said:


> I sincerely hope not. He's had enough special snowflake treatment without also becoming some immortal being of legend. Bring Loken back from the dead was one of the worst moves the Heresy series has made.
> 
> I very much hope he's not one of those who goes on to found/train the Grey Knights and instead meets his end during the Heresy.


Stan lee stated in a interview once that when he created comic books he never killed off villain.
Why? Because it takes allot of effort to make a good villain.

Loken is the first character that has his inner psych opened. Having him just there to wear a red shirt is a waste. It pisses me off to no end to have characters killed off just to create terror. Which is half the reason I don't read the gaunts series.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> You got a quote or a page #? I do think Loken was the first GK Eternal Warrior though.


I believe it's on Anvil Thawn's character page. I do not have the codex handy to check. 



Rems said:


> I sincerely hope not. He's had enough special snowflake treatment without also becoming some immortal being of legend. Bring Loken back from the dead was one of the worst moves the Heresy series has made.
> 
> I very much hope he's not one of those who goes on to found/train the Grey Knights and instead meets his end during the Heresy.


With how much power chaos has and the overall grim treatment humanity has I could really care less how many buffs they get. No matter how powerful a member of the impirium seems, they cannot compete with the overall power chaos has. So long as the Emperor stays incapacitated, humanity is doomed. 

And he is already considered one of the forefathers of the Grey Knights.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Stan lee stated in a interview once that when he created comic books he never killed off villain.
> Why? Because it takes allot of effort to make a good villain.
> 
> Loken is the first character that has his inner psych opened. Having him just there to wear a red shirt is a waste. It pisses me off to no end to have characters killed off just to create terror. Which is half the reason I don't read the gaunts series.


That seems like a very poor reason not to read the Ghosts series in my opinion. The real major character deaths are all quite well spaced out and all have more impact to character and plot development than simply 'anyone can die'.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> According to Khorne's Fist, Dan Abnett was adamant about the fact that Loken wasn't intended to die in 'Galaxy in Flames'.
> 
> I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been a fan of how Loken was handled _subsequently_ ("Cerberus", etc.). That having been said, I wasn't convinced that Loken had died when the building collapsed on him.


If he wasn't intended to die then his 'death' shouldn't of been written with such finality. Perhaps it was an error in another author picking up the tale and not getting the message but it seemed very final as i read it. 



Reaper45 said:


> Stan lee stated in a interview once that when he created comic books he never killed off villain.
> Why? Because it takes allot of effort to make a good villain.
> 
> Loken is the first character that has his inner psych opened. Having him just there to wear a red shirt is a waste. It pisses me off to no end to have characters killed off just to create terror. Which is half the reason I don't read the gaunts series.


I don't wish he'd stay dead so he's a 'red shirt', but rather for the narrative value of his death. Loken represented all that was good in the Astartes and the Imperium. To then have him slain by a brother, as the galaxy erupted in civil war; it was magnificent pathos and a fantastic end to that first trilogy. It sets the tone for the coming fraternal strife and represents the death of hope, of man's great dream that lies sullied in the modern Imperium. It was the moment we crossed into 40k. 

Him coming back cheapens that. 



SoL Berzerker said:


> With how much power chaos has and the overall grim treatment humanity has I could really care less how many buffs they get. No matter how powerful a member of the impirium seems, they cannot compete with the overall power chaos has. So long as the Emperor stays incapacitated, humanity is doomed.
> 
> And he is already considered one of the forefathers of the Grey Knights.


Considered by some fans perhaps but there's no actual concrete evidence. Sure he's one of Garro's band but he may not become a founder of the Grey Knights. I will admit it's becoming increasingly likely though. 

As i said though it's not about the Imperium receiving 'a buff' it's about the integrity and power of the narrative. He had much more narrative weight and power dying then he'll ever has as another special snowflake.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Rems said:


> If he wasn't intended to die then his 'death' shouldn't of been written with such finality. Perhaps it was an error in another author picking up the tale and not getting the message but it seemed very final as i read it.


This is simply my opinion at the end of the day, but I guess I read it differently. I figured he would live because (A) he actually survived the fight with Abaddon* and (B) I kept thinking of all those damn organs that work to keep Space Marines alive... especially one whose express purpose is to keep them in a comatose healing state. 

* And, at the end of the day, that fight was when treachery was intimately confronted: Loken and Torgaddon, the two loyalists, called Abaddon and Little Horus, the two traitors, to account for themselves. Thus, when Loken survived it, the follow-up scene where the building collapsed on him seemed redundant to me. I assumed Counter re-visiting him at that point served as a "did he, or didn't?" moment. When, two books later, Rylanor spoke of a underground (read: protected) hangar, that sealed the deal for me.

But again, just an opinion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Stan lee stated in a interview once that when he created comic books he never killed off villain.
> Why? Because it takes allot of effort to make a good villain.
> 
> Loken is the first character that has his inner psych opened. Having him just there to wear a red shirt is a waste. It pisses me off to no end to have characters killed off just to create terror. Which is half the reason I don't read the gaunts series.


I bet you don't like Game of Thrones either then. :laugh:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rems said:


> If he wasn't intended to die then his 'death' shouldn't of been written with such finality. Perhaps it was an error in another author picking up the tale and not getting the message but it seemed very final as i read it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Loken represents the side of the imperium that not many see. He is a realist and one who wants to do the right thing. Everything is working against him. But yet he is incorruptible. He could have been part of horus's inner circle and became a powerful champion of chaos yet he still chooses to side with the emperor.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I bet you don't like Game of Thrones either then. :laugh:


I view GOT as a bunch of neckbeards having a game of DND It's irrelevant as to what happens.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I bet you don't like Game of Thrones either then. :laugh:





Reaper45 said:


> I view GOT as a bunch of neckbeards having a game of DND It's irrelevant as to what happens.


Game of Thrones is VERY relevant to the topic of Loken's near death. When someone dies in GoT it is always with a witness and on screen. Ned Stark was executed in public. His head put on a pike for all to see. That is how to kill some one. The two Stark kids, Brand and Riken, were "killed" by Theon, in public but no one saw their faces, so not every one thinks they are dead. People in my circle thought the Blackfish might be dead also because of how the Red wedding went down. Since he left the room and was not shown to be killed out side, My gf told us he has to be alive. She was right. We are led to think Aria's Dance teacher dies when we last see him but don't see him actually die. That means to me he is alive. The point i'm trying to make is you don't let your characters die off screen because like Stan Lee said, they work to hard to create them to not get some value from their deaths, if they die at all. When a character does have a death off screen, it might be a real one but i am always a skeptic if i don't see a body. This whole situation is a great case to show why you need a head when you claim a death.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Game of Thrones is VERY relevant to the topic of Loken's near death. When someone dies in GoT it is always with a witness and on screen. Ned Stark was executed in public. His head put on a pike for all to see. That is how to kill some one. The two Stark kids, Brand and Riken, were "killed" by Theon, in public but no one saw their faces, so not every one thinks they are dead. People in my circle thought the Blackfish might be dead also because of how the Red wedding went down. Since he left the room and was not shown to be killed out side, My gf told us he has to be alive. She was right. We are led to think Aria's Dance teacher dies when we last see him but don't see him actually die. That means to me he is alive. The point i'm trying to make is you don't let your characters die off screen because like Stan Lee said, they work to hard to create them to not get some value from their deaths, if they die at all. When a character does have a death off screen, it might be a real one but i am always a skeptic if i don't see a body. This whole situation is a great case to show why you need a head when you claim a death.


Not really what I meant by irrelevant, to me you can only introduce and kill off so many characters before it comes to a point where new guys exist just to be killed off. hence the reason why I compare it to DND.

Secondly having loken lose his memories is basically killing him off. Which is also the reason why I believe he's not going to become a grey knight.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Game of Thrones is VERY relevant to the topic of Loken's near death. When someone dies in GoT it is always with a witness and on screen. Ned Stark was executed in public. His head put on a pike for all to see. That is how to kill some one. The two Stark kids, Brand and Riken, were "killed" by Theon, in public but no one saw their faces, so not every one thinks they are dead. People in my circle thought the Blackfish might be dead also because of how the Red wedding went down. Since he left the room and was not shown to be killed out side, My gf told us he has to be alive. She was right. We are led to think Aria's Dance teacher dies when we last see him but don't see him actually die. That means to me he is alive. The point i'm trying to make is you don't let your characters die off screen because like Stan Lee said, they work to hard to create them to not get some value from their deaths, if they die at all. When a character does have a death off screen, it might be a real one but i am always a skeptic if i don't see a body. This whole situation is a great case to show why you need a head when you claim a death.


I'm going to relate this to what you said about Tarvitz, earlier on in the thread. I'd say Saul Tarvitz and his lot are all likely dead. It does say that they are standing within the precentors palace as it is falling down around them. They don't even run to take cover or anything because in the words from the book "There was little point." *To me*, that pretty much confirms they are dead. Course, we've had this argument before and I'd rather not start that up again, so to get my point across that this is my opinion, I have highlighted and underlined "To me". Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.... But yeah, I'd say that even though no bodies were produced, and I believe Loken was the only one recovered from the planet (though I wouldn't know, I haven't listened to the audio book, which is where Loken is confirmed to be still among the living correct?), so I would definitely say they are dead. But thats just me, though.

As for Loken, well, I think they should have kept him dead. He was injured during his fight, then a friggin building collapsed on top of him, shattering his rib cage, and driving the shards into organs and such. How does a Space Marine survive that? Being buried underneath tons of rubble, where in False Gods, IIRC (or maybe earlier on in Galaxy in Flames. I cant exactly remember which book it was in), a horde of World Eaters, along with Angron, were buried under tons of rubble, with only Angron being able to live because he's a primarch. So how the hell did Loken live through the same thing that killed so many World Eaters Astartes? That is what strikes me as odd. 

What, did the Emperor himself pull Loken out of the rubble, and shamoo himself back to Terra, leaving a loyalist Astartes on a planet full of zombies, while he has amnesia? He'd be a prick if that was the case, which shouldn't come as a surprise to many of the members here. They could have picked a different astartes to fill the role, but they picked Loken. Why? Is all sense of symbolism lost on them? I guess so......


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Secondly having loken lose his memories is basically killing him off. Which is also the reason why I believe he's not going to become a grey knight.


In the audio Grey Angel we learn that Loken/ Cerberus has full access to his memories, good and bad. 



DeathJester921 said:


> I'm going to relate this to what you said about Tarvitz, earlier on in the thread. I'd say Saul Tarvitz and his lot are all likely dead. It does say that they are standing within the precentors palace as it is falling down around them. They don't even run to take cover or anything because in the words from the book "There was little point." *To me*, that pretty much confirms they are dead. Course, we've had this argument before and I'd rather not start that up again, so to get my point across that this is my opinion, I have highlighted and underlined "To me". Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.... But yeah, I'd say that even though no bodies were produced, and I believe Loken was the only one recovered from the planet (though I wouldn't know, I haven't listened to the audio book, which is where Loken is confirmed to be still among the living correct?), so I would definitely say they are dead. But thats just me, though.


Loken was NOT the only one recovered form Isstavan III. In the Forge world Horus Heresy book 1, Betrayal, we learn that a group of Astarte led by a Death Guard, Crysos Morturg, made it back to Terra. 

pg 266 side bar, "Despite all the odds Morturg survived the atrocity of Isstavan III and the few remnants of the slaughtered Loyalists he had gathered to him would live to revenge themselves against their former brothers."

Frustratingly though, i can not link Tarvitz and the ones with him to Morturg. The fact that he is a confirmed survivor though really opened the door for Tarvitz, should he have survived the Bombs.


DeathJester921 said:


> As for Loken, well, I think they should have kept him dead. He was injured during his fight, then a friggin building collapsed on top of him, shattering his rib cage, and driving the shards into organs and such. How does a Space Marine survive that? Being buried underneath tons of rubble, where in False Gods, IIRC (or maybe earlier on in Galaxy in Flames. I cant exactly remember which book it was in), a horde of World Eaters, along with Angron, were buried under tons of rubble, with only Angron being able to live because he's a primarch. So how the hell did Loken live through the same thing that killed so many World Eaters Astartes? That is what strikes me as odd.


In Legio of One we learn the building that fell on Loken was filled with "cavernous spaces". I think when he felt the rubble shift around him, he fell into one of these and thus was saved from the crushing weight. The World Eaters must not have been so blessed.


DeathJester921 said:


> What, did the Emperor himself pull Loken out of the rubble, and shamoo himself back to Terra, leaving a loyalist Astartes on a planet full of zombies, while he has amnesia? He'd be a prick if that was the case, which shouldn't come as a surprise to many of the members here. They could have picked a different astartes to fill the role, but they picked Loken. Why? Is all sense of symbolism lost on them? I guess so......


 The Emperor protects! It was fate that choose the building that held the duel. It was the Emperor himself that guided the foot of the Titan Dies Irae into the building at the right moment to save Loken from Abaddon. The Emperor or Malcador knew Loken lived some how and sent Garro to retrieve him. We learn in the Audio Wolf Hunt, that the Astartes gathered will indeed become the Grey Knights.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I know that he regains his memories. But is it not the tradition of the grey knights to wipe the memory of recruits. So wouldn't loken be included in that?


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I know that he regains his memories. But is it not the tradition of the grey knights to wipe the memory of recruits. So wouldn't loken be included in that?


The recruits you speak of are new to the Gene Seed right? Garro and co have been recruited for the knowledge they have. Why mind wipe the best first hand knowledge of how to defeat your enemies? This tradition may have started a bit later.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> In the audio Grey Angel we learn that Loken/ Cerberus has full access to his memories, good and bad.
> 
> 
> Loken was NOT the only one recovered form Isstavan III. In the Forge world Horus Heresy book 1, Betrayal, we learn that a group of Astarte led by a Death Guard, Crysos Morturg, made it back to Terra.
> ...


I don't have Betrayal in hand either, so thanks for clearing that up. I still refer back to Galaxy in Flames about Tarvitz and his band. The tone at that point was one of finality, when he thought "There was little point" to take cover as the building collapsed around them. I firmly believe that his band are indeed dead at this point. It was mass orbital bombardment. Saul saw the bombardment coming down towards them, but they just stood there. 

The Death Guard's band was, most likely, further out, towards the trenches where the Death Guard were initially fighting, before the betrayal. Thats what I would think, at any rate. They'd have had to fight through the World Eaters plus Angron, the Emperor's Children, their own brothers in the Death Guard to have escaped the trenches in the first place, and the Sons of Horus when they landed. They would have had to have been further out. I refer back to the book. With Tarvitz' band at the end he doesn't mention any Death Guard that were with them. Only the remaining Sons of Horus, Emperors Children, and "even a few lost looking World Eaters". But hey, at least a few more loyalists survived the purging. Thats something at least.

Could Saul's band have survived the bombardment? To me, doubtfully, since the main focus of it seems to have been the Precentors Palace, where the remaining loyalists were mainly clustered. Until the authors write otherwise, I'm of the mind that they're dead and gone, buried underneath the rubble of the Precentors Palace.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

An Astartes surviving major wounds and a a building collapsing on him is not that much of a issue, nor is the fact that a few loyalists survived Isstvan III. The issue for me is that Loken survived. I honestly think that is the most serious mistake that the series authors have made, and they've made countless. 



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> We learn in the Audio Wolf Hunt, that the Astartes gathered will indeed become the Grey Knights.


I haven't listened to _Lone Wolf_ yet, could you reveal (in spoilers) how them becoming the Grey Knights has be finally confirmed?



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Game of Thrones is VERY relevant to the topic of Loken's near death. When someone dies in GoT it is always with a witness and on screen. Ned Stark was executed in public. His head put on a pike for all to see. That is how to kill some one. The two Stark kids, Brand and Riken, were "killed" by Theon, in public but no one saw their faces, so not every one thinks they are dead. People in my circle thought the Blackfish might be dead also because of how the Red wedding went down. Since he left the room and was not shown to be killed out side, My gf told us he has to be alive. She was right. We are led to think Aria's Dance teacher dies when we last see him but don't see him actually die. That means to me he is alive. The point i'm trying to make is you don't let your characters die off screen because like Stan Lee said, they work to hard to create them to not get some value from their deaths, if they die at all. When a character does have a death off screen, it might be a real one but i am always a skeptic if i don't see a body. This whole situation is a great case to show why you need a head when you claim a death.


In most cases perhaps, you need to see the body/head to confirm a death. But good stories don't always need to provide such evidence. Arya's dancing master, for example, is most likely dead. We cannot say for certain, but the chances are he is dead and we'll never see him again. It's not an issue that we haven't seen his corpse, we should just assume he was killed (especially given he was claiming he would never run and the Kingsguard who confronted him obviously survived). We don't _need_ to see every characters death to know they have died. 

Given, in some circumstances this leaves certain character's demises open, such as Loken's. And given, we don't always know for certain characters have died if we don't witness them actually dying. But I don't think we need to, you can often create much more dramatic scenes such as Arya leaving Syrio to his land stand, or Tarvitz and co. muttering there is "no point" in trying to take shelter before making their own defiant last stand etc. than actually having to show them literally dying.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

DeathJester921 said:


> As for Loken, well, I think they should have kept him dead.


Correction. You thought he _should_ have died. Once the authors go on record with a statement like "he was never dead, and we never planned on him to die," saying Loken should have been kept dead is like me saying Torgaddon shouldn't have been killed.

All of us fall for the "I really thought he died!" bit at some point. Such is life. All I can tell you is that, in literature, more often than not the hero or villain who isn't demonstrably shown dying... is probably alive after all.

I mean, look at the whole situation objectively. Loken and Torgaddon square off against Abaddon and Little Horus. Torgaddon gets decapitated. That's _pretty final,_ daemonic resurrection not withstanding. Abaddon then crushes Loken's breastplate/bone shield, but opts to perform the "evil villain monologue" routine. The Dies Irae then predictably smashes through the building, interrupting Abaddon from, you know, actually killing Loken. What purpose does it serve to delay Loken's supposed death until another scene? Drama? Some people thought so. Other people saw it as a hint: Loken's assured death is interrupted, and replaced with an ambiguous proclamation.

The same thing applies to Tarvitz and his people. Why would the author deliberately leave them at the Preceptor's Palace at the beginning of a bombardment, but not at their moment of death? When, a mere two novels later, Lucius practically spelled out their avenue of retreat, this didn't seem like a reversal to me, but a confirmation that doubting their death was the right call.

If it's any consolation, hints as to Loken's fate existed even before 'Galaxy in Flames'. Per the closing chapters of 'False Gods':
_"Loken had killed thousands of enemies before,* and he would kill thousands more in wars yet to be fought,* ..."_

Little hints like those are hardly unique in this series. :wink:



> He was injured during his fight, then a friggin building collapsed on top of him, shattering his rib cage, and driving the shards into organs and such. How does a Space Marine survive that?


By... being a Space Marine? I'm not trying to be rude by any means, but, at some point, a reader does have the responsibility to recall and take into consideration key knowledge of the setting. The superhuman abilities imparted by the organs created by Gene-seed fall under that category. How would this have played a factor in Loken's situation?

To begin with, the Ossmodula provided Loken with a "tremendously strong and fast-healing skeleton". From the second that his rib-cage was shattered, his body was already working to re-form the bones and heal them. Concurrently, Loken's blood cells would have immediately begun to help his superhuman skeleton heal itself. Unlike any normal human, though, Loken's twin hearts were pumping out twice as much blood to support that effort - blood that was considerably more efficient than the normal variety, thanks to his Haemastamen. At the same time, his Larraman's Organ ensured that any blood-loss was either minimized or eliminated altogether, allowing the previously mentioned organs to work at maximum capacity.

Put simply, Loken - like any other Space Marine - was a healing machine meant to survive wounds that would kill any normal human being... such as one's breastplate being shattered by massive concussive force. Absent a killing stroke (meltagun, decapitation, being exploded into pieces), Space Marines are remarkably adept at staying alive. Even those who _would_ have been dead under normal circumstances (and in some stories are implied to have been in much worse shape than Loken) end up living for centuries or even millennia as Dreadnoughts. Granted, some authors take license with how well a given Space Marine's organs might deal with catastrophic damage. On the other hand, though, the same authors generally tell us when Astartes healing mechanisms are actually failing to do what they're supposed to.

Bottom line, the general rule has _always_ been that Space Marines are remarkably hard to kill. I think that's something a lot of folks forgot when they were reading through Loken's specific situation.

(Incidentally, the "bones going into organs" bit is, no offense, conjecture on your part. Loken suffered from bruised and broken bones to be sure, but when secondary hearts burst, extra lungs collapse, etc., the authors - more often than not - tell us.)



> Being buried underneath tons of rubble, where in False Gods, IIRC (or maybe earlier on in Galaxy in Flames. I cant exactly remember which book it was in), a horde of World Eaters, along with Angron, were buried under tons of rubble, with only Angron being able to live because he's a primarch. So how the hell did Loken live through the same thing that killed so many World Eaters Astartes? That is what strikes me as odd.


Because every situation that results in the creation of rubble generates the same amount of it?

In Loken's case, he could see outside the rubble pinning him. He had been pinned by the remainder a building torn apart by the Dies Irae. Angron's predicament was caused by an explosion that reached "hundreds of metres into the air". We don't know The amount of rubble Angron and his warriors were buried under merited the (exaggerated, to be sure) description of "mountain".

Cheers,
P.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I haven't listened to _Lone Wolf_ yet, could you reveal (in spoilers) how them becoming the Grey Knights has be finally confirmed?




Malcador tells Nagasena that he is taking Severian for his secret war and reveals that Severian is a psyker(though it's already obvious to the listener by this point. Well, it should be), he being a psyker is a principle reason why he needs him. One particular quote Malcador says is:

'He(refering to Dorn) has his Knights, and I shall soon have mine' 

He then goes on to call them his 'Grey Angels' and says Severian will be part of them. Granted it doesn't 100% confirm it, but there have already been some pretty heavy allusions to it throughout the series, we know from the older fluff and the Grey Knights codex that during the Heresy, Malcador gathered astartes from both loyalist and traitor legions to become Grey Knights. He's already collected quite a few, some of whom are psykers, and is now referring to them as his 'Grey Angels' and also his 'Knights'. It's too much for co-incidence. Yes, Qruze, Loken, Garro and Varren aren't psykers, or at least have no indication of being so, but this trait could be wavered for the founders I imagine.

Again, not concrete just yet, but very strong evidence to point to this being the case.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

In one of the heresy novels thats a collection of short stories isn't it hinted that Loken is going to 

the one who kills little Horus?


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In most cases perhaps, you need to see the body/head to confirm a death. But good stories don't always need to provide such evidence. Arya's dancing master, for example, is most likely dead. We cannot say for certain, but the chances are he is dead and we'll never see him again. It's not an issue that we haven't seen his corpse, we should just assume he was killed (especially given he was claiming he would never run and the Kingsguard who confronted him obviously survived). We don't _need_ to see every characters death to know they have died.


Not to spoil a wholly different series, but

While there are a few minor material differences between the HBO series and the Song of Ice and Fire book series, in the books, there is a witness conversation after the event that confirms the death of Syrio Forel, the First Sword of Braavos.
 Then again George RR Martin is a wily bastard of an author and has characters coming back from the dead, so WTF.

I would heartily suggest the Song of Ice and Fire books to anyone, as good as the HBO series has been, the books still add a depth of narrative and story you just can't get from the series. WH40K is really premised on exactly the kinds of grimdark politics the Song of Ice and Fire series displays masterfully.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mob16151 said:


> In one of the heresy novels thats a collection of short stories isn't it hinted that Loken is going to
> 
> the one who kills little Horus?




It is certainly implied.




Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> While there are a few minor material differences between the HBO series and the Song of Ice and Fire book series, in the books, there is a witness conversation after the event that confirms the death of Syrio Forel, the First Sword of Braavos.




I have read the books, but for some reason I remember the TV series more vividly. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## NoSoulJoel (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I think Garvi is still alive in the "present" 40k. I think he will be the answer to question he was asked by Mersadie Oliton , "How long do the Astartes live?". Answer over 10k years. I think he was cursed with immortality with the other Mournival brothers when they turned on each other. I think it is Loken who will eventually kill Lucius for good. In Legion of one he called him self the "undying". He said that the peace of the grave will only be his when the scales are balanced. Until Abaddon gets clipped, there will be no balance, thus he must live on.


I'm pretty sure he is in the warp hunting members of the Mournival


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