# The Unremembered Empire, Spoilers abound



## Angel of Blood

Let's get a thread going to discuss the novel then! Spoilers will be abundant, so if you didn't realise that from the title, turn back now.

Only got 100 pages left to go now, and whilst I'm enjoying the novel immensely, two things are bothering me. First, I'm finding Curze to be a little too unstoppable. Towards the start of the novel Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion, now though we don't know who they were, nothing suggests they were the greatest of the XX Legion. Curze on the other hand, so far has had the very best of the Dark Angels and Ultramarines pursuing and fighting him, along with what I imagine were a very dangerous pack of Wolves, seeing as they had been sent to potentially kill a Primarch anyway. He's also fought Guilliman _and_ the Lion at the same time, and held them off, even wounding the Lion quite badly, the same Lion who has beaten him twice now in the past. He's also just managed to kill Vulkan, again I might add, granted Vulkan is not really at his best, but the point still stands, and fuck knows how he survived that explosion he was in the heart of, utterly unharmed at that. And he's still on the loose now! 

Secondly. Where...the actual fuck...is Sanguinius!? I've got less than 100 pages to go and he still hasn't arrived. Why put him on the cover, when the Lion has featured throughout most of the novel. Both Curze and Vulkan have appeared for more than 100 pages now, so both of them will have beaten him at page count as well. And with the way it's going at the moment, I can't see him turning up for at least another chapter or two either, I've almost resigned myself to seeing him arrive in the epilogue now. Like I said, I'm still enjoying it a lot, a massive amount, but I really expected to see quite a lot of Sanguinius in this novel, thought most of the novel would be about him in fact.

Feel free to post any spoilers, I won't be looking at this thread again till I finish the novel in the next hour or so.


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## Gree

Sanguinius only arrives at the last ten or so pages. The cover is basically the last scene in the novel.


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## Angel of Blood

Yup, like I thought. Again, still really liked the novel, but was more than a little disappointed to not really see Sanguinius at all. Though as a huge fan of the Lion, I was more than happy to see him appear.


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## Brother Lucian

Regarding Vulkan


Considering his 'death' in the last HH book, I sincerely doubt this one is final either. Especially when John Grammaticus sacrificed his immortality in a bid to cure Vulkan of his insanity. And with the hint of a heartbeat in the casket, he is all but set for a grand return I am quite certain.


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## Gree

Angel of Blood said:


> Only got 100 pages left to go now, and whilst I'm enjoying the novel immensely, two things are bothering me. First, I'm finding Curze to be a little too unstoppable. Towards the start of the novel Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion, now though we don't know who they were, nothing suggests they were the greatest of the XX Legion. Curze on the other hand, so far has had the very best of the Dark Angels and Ultramarines pursuing and fighting him, along with what I imagine were a very dangerous pack of Wolves, seeing as they had been sent to potentially kill a Primarch anyway. He's also fought Guilliman _and_ the Lion at the same time, and held them off, even wounding the Lion quite badly, the same Lion who has beaten him twice now in the past. He's also just managed to kill Vulkan, again I might add, granted Vulkan is not really at his best, but the point still stands, and fuck knows how he survived that explosion he was in the heart of, utterly unharmed at that. And he's still on the loose now!


Well the obvious answer that Abnett loves Curze.

But to be more serious It's probably more because Curze is in his element instead of simply fighting straight up, i.e being allowed to go all Batman on people instead of fighting duels with the Lion.

To be honest I'm more disappointed with Guilliman and Vulkan. Guilliman is almost killed by ten Alpha Legionaries, whereas we see Primarchs in other novels slaughtering Astartes by the dozens with ease. It's even more odd when Guilliman is apparently hailed as one of the best fighters among the Primarchs.

I guess you can make some allowances, since they basically caught Guilliman off guard in an ambush. But it's basically weird to see Guilliman almost killed by bolter shells when we see Primarchs shrug off much worse in the past.

Then Vulkan is apparently killed multiple times by Damon with a shuriken rifle. Wha...?


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## Zooey72

Won't read the book, but I am sure Vulkan's is a comic book death. I can't imagine them changing the entire HH and 40k storyline that much.


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## Words_of_Truth

Yeah I think Vulkan is definitely not dead, Eldrad told John how to cure him and as far as I can make out he didn't everything Eldrad said in the end and that was to cure him of his insanity. Perhaps it's just reset his resurrection clock as before he was litterally hit the deck dead and then opening his eyes. 

I really hope Vulkan ends up fighting at Terra, defending one of the gates, an unstoppable Primarch single handedly beating people down, then again Sanguinius kind of does that, but I don't see what gate Vulkan could be defending that would have a major impact on the Heresy, because according to the Cabal Vulkan is a major obstacle when it comes to Chaos trimuphing so dramatically that it burns it'self out.

I also agree Curze was over the top in this novel, it was cool but it got to the point where he was ridiculously over powered, especially when you consider how easy Guilliman nearly went down. Only Vulkan seemed to do any damage to him and tbh some of his hits should of cracked Curze's spine.


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## Zooey72

On an unrelated, but related topic, isn't Vulkan supposed to be the strongest as far as muscle goes? I think in the realm of pure strength it was him and Manus that were supposed to be top dogs. I haven't read the book, but I think that anything Vulkan could hit he would destroy. Your best play against him would be "Don't get hit". A few primarchs like Fulgrim could pull that off and maybe kill him, but not Curze. Curze is a savage and I would tend to think he leads with his chin.

I do like the idea of Vulkan being on Terra during the siege. A fight between him and Angron would be epic. I personaly would like to see Angron tearing through Astartes at the gate and Vulkan comes out and KO's him in one punch.


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## Valdor

Just finished the book One of the best if not the best so far in the series. Felt like the Primarchs were really given some depth by Abnett.

My thought on Guilliman getting the crap knocked out of him is . 
1 He was wearing ceremonial armor 
2 Surprised and taken totally unaware by the Alpha legion( He was in the process of taking his armor off)
3 It felt like to me it maybe took a total of twenty seconds for the whole fight to start and finish. Not to bad for the position that he was in.

Vulcan was easily defeated many times due to his insanity and due to his health never being restored from the reentry and landing . He wasn't fully healed when he broke out of the medcade so when kruz kills him with a single stab from his gauntlets he was all ready half dead.


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## Karthak

Gree said:


> Then Vulkan is apparently killed multiple times by Damon with a shuriken rifle. Wha...?


He gets shot by a guy dual-wielding two shuriken-pistols from and Eldar Lord's private arsenal that can spit out thousands of razor-rounds in less than four seconds.

Plus he was pretty much buck-naked at that point, so no armour.


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## Gree

Karthak said:


> He gets shot by a guy dual-wielding two shuriken-pistols from and Eldar Lord's private arsenal that can spit out thousands of razor-rounds in less than four seconds.
> 
> Plus he was pretty much buck-naked at that point, so no armour.


And yet considering how much Primarch durability and physiology is played up and demonstrated in other novels, it seem too much of a stretch for me. Abnett seems to have succumbed to the temptation facing many writers writing immortal characters, i.e they get killed and mangled horribly to show off their regeneration.


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## Words_of_Truth

Vulkan had just fell through the atmosphere of a planet and barely had any skin let a lone his own wits about him to dodge the attacks.


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## Gree

Words_of_Truth said:


> Vulkan had just fell through the atmosphere of a planet and barely had any skin let a lone his own wits about him to dodge the attacks.


Was it explicitly stated that Vulkan was not at his best? IIRC it had been some time between Vulkan resurrecting himself after that and then the fight with the Perpetuals.


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## Words_of_Truth

Well when he left the cell his hands were still skinless and blood was going all over the place, plus he was absolutely insane. Oh then he'd jumped from the edge of the tallest wall in the city and broke his back a long with other damage, between him getting out of the cell and him getting to the perpetuals he'd died like 5 times already.


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## ckcrawford

Any main points to the novel?


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## Munkey

have to admit, i'm enjoying the book so far. about half way through. I find the the portrayal of Gulliman is quite good; ahumanises him a bit. 

the two things that are bugging me so far about the book are how Kurze is (big unstoppable force - like a steroided up Batman with big fecking claws and ability to see what folk about to do; i swear that his visions weren't portrayed as being this accurate in previous books - but am probably wrong) and Grammaticus. Liked him in legion, annoying in this book so far.


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## Words_of_Truth

ckcrawford said:


> Any main points to the novel?


It clears up how the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists Retribution Fleet, Dark Angels were able to escape the warp storms encircling them. It apparently seriously hinders the cabals plans due to the way John ends up dealing with Vulkan, it leaves Curze still in the picture. It defines the reason for Imperium Secondus and why there's no knowledge of it after the Heresy.

Also and this is an assumption, a pretty big one, you could derive fromt he book the reason for why the Tyranids were drawn to this galaxy.


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## Brother Lucian

Words_of_Truth said:


> It clears up how the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists Retribution Fleet, Dark Angels were able to escape the warp storms encircling them. It apparently seriously hinders the cabals plans due to the way John ends up dealing with Vulkan, it leaves Curze still in the picture. It defines the reason for Imperium Secondus and why there's no knowledge of it after the Heresy.
> 
> Also and this is an assumption, a pretty big one, you could derive fromt he book the reason for why the Tyranids were drawn to this galaxy.


The Scythes of the Emperor was based on Sotha, the world destroyed by the tyranids. Id hazard a guess that the scythes are ultramarine descendants and formed from the garrison stationed there.


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## Words_of_Truth

Brother Lucian said:


> The Scythes of the Emperor was based on Sotha, the world destroyed by the tyranids. Id hazard a guess that the scythes are ultramarine descendants and formed from the garrison stationed there.


Indeed, I came to that conclusion to, especially when Dan makes a point to point out that the farmers of Sotha use Scythes and their primary method of farming


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## Lord of the Night

Gree said:


> But to be more serious It's probably more because Curze is in his element instead  of simply fighting straight up, i.e being allowed to go all Batman on people instead of fighting duels with the Lion.


Exactly. What Abnett is doing here is showing what a Primarch doing what he does best is better than a Primarch that isn't well versed in that element. Curze is a dirty fighter that is used to fighting in sneaky and underhanded methods, Guilliman and Jonson are not and thus Curze had the advantage. And remember that Curze nearly beat Rogal Dorn to death, so obviously he is one of the physically strongest Primarchs. Plus, he cheated. You know, with the bombs.



Gree said:


> To be honest I'm more disappointed with Guilliman and Vulkan. Guilliman is almost killed by ten Alpha Legionaries, whereas we see Primarchs in other novels slaughtering Astartes by the dozens with ease. It's even more odd when Guilliman is apparently hailed as one of the best fighters among the Primarchs.
> 
> I guess you can make some allowances, since they basically caught Guilliman off guard in an ambush. But it's basically weird to see Guilliman almost killed by bolter shells when we see Primarchs shrug off much worse in the past.


What Tarasha Euten said about that sums it up in my opinion. One bolter shot to the head kills you, Primarch or no. Even Guilliman couldn't survive a frag grenade bullet embedded in his skull and then exploding. He was caught off-guard and in ceremonial, i.e not real, armour and unhelmeted and with no weapon, and his attackers were elite Alpha Legionnaires likely well trained in assassination and infiltration and likely hand-picked by Alpharius and Omegon just for this mission. They wouldn't do anything less for a Primarch.



Gree said:


> Then Vulkan is apparently killed multiple times by Damon with a shuriken rifle. Wha...?


He was killed by being shot in his unarmoured body by thousands of shuriken rounds, and every time he got up he didn't have any time to regenerate and was basically a walking corpse fuelled by rage, it wouldn't be hard to put him down. His head had been blown open at the end, so his wounds obviously slowed him down and made him an easier target.



Valdor said:


> My thought on Guilliman getting the crap knocked out of him is .
> 
> 1 He was wearing ceremonial armor.
> 2 Surprised and taken totally unaware by the Alpha Legion (He was in the process of taking his armor off)
> 3 It felt like to me it maybe took a total of twenty seconds for the whole fight to start and finish. Not to bad for the position that he was in.
> 
> Vulkan was easily defeated many times due to his insanity and due to his health never being restored from the reentry and landing. He wasn't fully healed when he broke out of the medcade so when Curze kills him with a single stab from his gauntlets he was all ready half dead.


Good points. Add mine about exactly who was ambushing him and I think it puts the scene in perspective. Same for Vulkan.



Gree said:


> Was it explicitly stated that Vulkan was not at his best? IIRC it had been some time between Vulkan resurrecting himself after that and then the fight with the Perpetuals.


So you read the scene, read that Vulkan is unarmoured, wounded to a degree that would kill practically any other being, his mind is broken and he is incapable of thinking of anything beyond charging forward, and by the end even a part of his head had been blown off, and he had been consistently dying from the time he got out of the Medicae up until the battle with Grammaticus and Prytanis so he would not have had time to fully regenerate from any of his fights. You read that, and you still need the narration to tell you that he might not be at his best. I kinda think that it's implied the guy with half his head gone and the other half not functioning properly might not be at 100%.


LotN


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## Zinegata

Best scene of the novel: 

Guilliman's "mom" rallying the White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and members of various other legions into action to come to Guilliman and the Lion's aid. 

And they all shout "We March for Macragge!" together.

Classic Abnett touch.


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## Angel of Blood

Just a pity it turned out to be a huge mistake ^^. Luck for her that the Wolves stuck around, well not so lucky for Mads Loreson or Shockeye Ffyn, it's not clear which one of those two it was that died, but they seemed the most seriously injured of the pack.


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## Doelago

Absolutely loved the book and am really looking forward to the next one. Really liked the Curze on a rampage scenes and especially the fight between Polux and Curze.


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## Gree

I see Lord of the Night has replied to me. Joy.



Lord of the Night said:


> What Tarasha Euten said about that sums it up in my opinion. One bolter shot to the head kills you, Primarch or no. Even Guilliman couldn't survive a frag grenade bullet embedded in his skull and then exploding. He was caught off-guard and in ceremonial, i.e not real, armour and unhelmeted and with no weapon, and his attackers were elite Alpha Legionnaires likely well trained in assassination and infiltration and likely hand-picked by Alpharius and Omegon just for this mission. They wouldn't do anything less for a Primarch.


We have considerably better feats for his brothers though. Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus were described as taking hits from weapons that would turn Titan armor to paste, with Primarch skin being stated to be tougher than Terminator armor.Fulgrim in his underwear took a power fist to the face, along with repeated sonic blasts and other weaponry. A wounded Corax was slaughtering dozens of Iron Warriors and regarding bolter rounds as mere annoyances. Only a lascannon even gave Corax a slight pause. At one point we even have four squads of Iron Warriors pouring bolter fire into Corax without any real effect.

Heck, if a mere bolter round in the head could kill a Primarch, then Angron and Corax would have been dead along ago.

That's all off the top of my head. Guilliman doesn't really match up, even unarmed and caught off guard. I'm not particularly bothered by it though, as Black Library is notoriously inconsistent with Primarch durability. Apparently a bunch of grenades are enough to kill a Primarch.



Lord of the Night said:


> He was killed by being shot in his unarmoured body by thousands of shuriken rounds, and every time he got up he didn't have any time to regenerate and was basically a walking corpse fuelled by rage, it wouldn't be hard to put him down. His head had been blown open at the end, so his wounds obviously slowed him down and made him an easier target.


He is described as being ''plated and raging mad'' in addition regenerating faster and faster, so no, I do not agree with your explanation. In addition, we see Primarchs taking terrible punishment in other novels and shrugging it off. Heck, killing a Primarch in other novels was depicted as some shocking and amazing feat. Here Vulkan dies enough times for all his brothers.

It is rather lamentable that Abnett fell into the Wolverine trap when portraying immortals, but as I've said, I'm fine with ignoring one of Abnett's liberties with the setting.



Lord of the Night said:


> So you read the scene, read that Vulkan is unarmoured, wounded to a degree that would kill practically any other being, his mind is broken and he is incapable of thinking of anything beyond charging forward, and by the end even a part of his head had been blown off, and he had been consistently dying from the time he got out of the Medicae up until the battle with Grammaticus and Prytanis so he would not have had time to fully regenerate from any of his fights. You read that, and you still need the narration to tell you that he might not be at his best. I kinda think that it's implied the guy with half his head gone and the other half not functioning properly might not be at 100%.


_
"Vulkan came back from the dead once again.

It was happening faster. It was happening faster and faster each time. New life followed each death at an increasingly fearsome rate. Vulkan’s rage was such that he would not let death keep him for even a second."_

I don't really see anything else in the narration that would imply he hadn't fully regenerated, especially as he evidently had enough time to arm himself at Guilliman's armory during the book. He is apparently not fast enough to catch the Perpetual pair, despite a wounded Corax being able to cross a hundred meters in a few seconds to take out Iron Warriors.


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## Lord of the Night

Gree said:


> I see Lord of the Night has replied to me. Joy.


Ooo sarcasm. That was witty and unexpected.



Gree said:


> We have considerably better feats for his brothers though. Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus were described as taking hits from weapons that would turn Titan armor to paste, with Primarch skin being stated to be tougher than Terminator armor. Fulgrim in his underwear took a power fist to the face, along with repeated sonic blasts and other weaponry. A wounded Corax was slaughtering dozens of Iron Warriors and regarding bolter rounds as mere annoyances. Only a lascannon even gave Corax a slight pause. At one point we even have four squads of Iron Warriors pouring bolter fire into Corax without any real effect.
> 
> That's all off the top of my head. Guilliman doesn't really match up, even unarmed and caught off guard. I'm not particularly bothered by it though, as Black Library is notoriously inconsistent with Primarch durability. Apparently a bunch of grenades are enough to kill a Primarch.


Ok in order;

Turn Titan armour to paste?? Yeah no that's way too much. Primarchs can turn Titan armour into paste with their fists and weapons, so in that case what the hell are they wasting their time with anti-titan weapons then. Just send in the Primarch and have him cut the legs to pieces. And if they can kill God-Machines like that then a Greater Daemon or an Avatar would be absolutely no match, they could just bitch-slap either of them and kill them like that. Obviously you prefer the invincible MDK Primarchs that even an Avatar would shudder at facing, but I prefer the Primarchs that are god-like in battle but can be killed if you fight them the right way.

Tougher than Terminator armour?? In that case why not just go into battle with only a loin-cloth, that way they won't be slowed down by that all that unnecessary armour. Too much.

Same for the Fulgrim part. Too much.

I remember that scene and Corax was fully armoured at the time. And this is of course the fastest Primarch on an open battlefield with a jump-pack. Not a cornered Primarch in ceremonial armour in a tight space that there is very little room to manuever in and without a means of escape or a weapon.

At what point were grenades enough?? The Alpha Legion Kill-Team was aiming to kill him with a hail of bolter shots, which I add would more than likely be rounds designed to pierce heavily armoured targets, and only used grenades to flush him out.



Gree said:


> He is described as being ''plated and raging mad'' in addition regenerating faster and faster, so no, I do not agree with your explanation. In addition, we see Primarchs taking terrible punishment in other novels and shrugging it off. Heck, killing a Primarch in other novels was depicted as some shocking and amazing feat. Here Vulkan dies enough times for all his brothers.
> 
> It is rather lamentable that Abnett fell into the Wolverine trap when portraying immortals, but as I've said, I'm fine with ignoring one of Abnett's liberties with the setting.


Plated in armour he looted from Guilliman's museum. Patch-work armour that would not be very good, and regenerating life is not the same as regenerating flesh. I don't care if you agree or not, i'm just stating an alternate interpretation.

No what C.S Goto did in his novels is "taking liberties with the settting." What Abnett does here is called an interpretation and every author is entitled to do that.




Gree said:


> _"Vulkan came back from the dead once again.
> 
> It was happening faster. It was happening faster and faster each time. New life followed each death at an increasingly fearsome rate. Vulkan’s rage was such that he would not let death keep him for even a second."_
> 
> I don't really see anything else in the narration that would imply he hadn't fully regenerated, especially as he evidently had enough time to arm himself at Guilliman's armory during the book. He is apparently not fast enough to catch the Perpetual pair, despite a wounded Corax being able to cross a hundred meters in a few seconds to take out Iron Warriors.


I don't really see anything in that narration that would imply that just because Vulkan is resurrecting faster means he is regenerating faster. Vulkan is dying and coming back faster, but his wounds are not fully healing and by the time his wounds do start to heal quicker, when Narek blows part of his head off, he is killed repeatedly in a short space of time following that because his mind cannot think of tactics, only charging forward to kill, and thus he is prevented from regenerating fully to fight Curze again.

Corax = Fastest Primarch. Vulkan = Slowest. The Salamanders gene-seed actually does state that the Salamanders have slower reflexes than other Astartes, and I think it's fair to say that Corax is obviously faster than him.


Ultimately I prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs from _Know No Fear_ and _The Unremembered Empire_. And Swallow's Sanguinius in _Fear to Tread_ as well. The Primarchs are strong, some of the strongest beings alive, but they are not invulnerable and have been toned down from the earlier novels when their descriptions would imply that there is nothing else in creation on their level. And it also never actually states how long it took Guilliman to kill those Alpha Legionnaires, only that in his mind it felt like hours, which means that it could have been anywhere from 20 seconds to 1 minute. 10 Astartes dead in around 20 seconds, that is still damn good and better than most could do.


LotN


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## Words_of_Truth

Well they used to be slower due to the the gravitational forces of their home world, but that fluff hasn't been around since Codex Armageddon afaik.


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## Gree

Lord of the Night said:


> Ooo sarcasm. That was witty and unexpected.


To put this as diplomatically as possible, I generally find debating with you is an unpleasant and time-wasting experience. 



Lord of the Night said:


> Turn Titan armour to paste?? Yeah no that's way too much. Primarchs can turn Titan armour into paste with their fists and weapons, so in that case what the hell are they wasting their time with anti-titan weapons then. Just send in the Primarch and have him cut the legs to pieces.


You have only twenty Primarchs in an entire galaxy. it is quite plausible from a military perspective for them to not hunt Titans. The Primarch asset of the Primarchs of course if their command ability.



Lord of the Night said:


> And if they can kill God-Machines like that then a Greater Daemon or an Avatar would be absolutely no match, they could just bitch-slap either of them and kill them like that. Obviously you prefer the invincible MDK Primarchs that even an Avatar would shudder at facing, but I prefer the Primarchs that are god-like in battle but can be killed if you fight them the right way.


I certainly don't prefer invincible Primarchs. I don't prefer ones that are not much tougher than normal Astartes. Guilliman being killed by ten bolter-armored Astartes is very low-end for a Primarch. Heck, we've seen Astartes like Lucius and Sevatar take in similar odds.

And I'm not particularly sure why that would mean that Primarchs can ''bitch slap Greater Daemons'' if they can damage Titan armor.



Lord of the Night said:


> Tougher than Terminator armour?? In that case why not just go into battle with only a loin-cloth, that way they won't be slowed down by that all that unnecessary armour. Too much.


Why would they not wear any additional protection they can find? I don't particularly claim they are invincible or invulnerable. After all heavy weaponry like lascannons have harmed them. It's the issue with bolter rounds that I'm taking issue with.

If you want to see the quote it's here:

_"Burning light and sound filled the Iron Forge, the weapons roaring as the unimaginable forces harnessed in their creation were unleashed. Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim’s face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a primarch. Fulgrim rode the blow and smashed his forehead into his brother’s face, spinning on his heel and slashing his red hot blade towards Ferrus’s throat."_-Fulgrim pg. 591



Lord of the Night said:


> I remember that scene and Corax was fully armoured at the time. And this is of course the fastest Primarch on an open battlefield with a jump-pack. Not a cornered Primarch in ceremonial armour in a tight space that there is very little room to manuever in and without a means of escape or a weapon.


He is noted to be already wounded and later on to be repeatedly struck by bolter rounds. Only heavy weapons are noted to give him any pause at all. I don't recall any source stating him to be the ''fastest primarch''either.



Lord of the Night said:


> Plated in armour he looted from Guilliman's museum. Patch-work armour that would not be very good, and regenerating life is not the same as regenerating flesh. I don't care if you agree or not, i'm just stating an alternate interpretation.


You attempted to correct me when I first stated my issue. If you don't care about my agreement then why are you bothered to reply?



Lord of the Night said:


> No what C.S Goto did in his novels is "taking liberties with the settting." What Abnett does here is called an interpretation and every author is entitled to do that.


Oh, look, a double standard. It's evidently not fine for CS Goto to have his own interpretations with the setting, but it's evidently fine for Abnett to ''have an interpretation, which is different from all that nasty stuff Goto does because you say so. Do I even have to point out how ridiculous your statement is?

Really, if you are going to pull that card then arguing with you is a pointless exercise.



Lord of the Night said:


> I don't really see anything in that narration that would imply that just because Vulkan is resurrecting faster means he is regenerating faster. Vulkan is dying and coming back faster, but his wounds are not fully healing and by the time his wounds do start to heal quicker, when Narek blows part of his head off, he is killed repeatedly in a short space of time following that because his mind cannot think of tactics, only charging forward to kill, and thus he is prevented from regenerating fully to fight Curze again.


And as I've pointed out, there isn't anything stated like that in the novel.



Lord of the Night said:


> Corax = Fastest Primarch. Vulkan = Slowest. The Salamanders gene-seed actually does state that the Salamanders have slower reflexes than other Astartes, and I think it's fair to say that Corax is obviously faster than him.


Do you have citations for Corax being the faster?



Lord of the Night said:


> Ultimately I prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs from _Know No Fear_ and _The Unremembered Empire_. And Swallow's Sanguinius in _Fear to Tread_ as well. The Primarchs are strong, some of the strongest beings alive, but they are not invulnerable and have been toned down from the earlier novels when their descriptions would imply that there is nothing else in creation on their level. And it also never actually states how long it took Guilliman to kill those Alpha Legionnaires, only that in his mind it felt like hours, which means that it could have been anywhere from 20 seconds to 1 minute. 10 Astartes dead in around 20 seconds, that is still damn good and better than most could do.


You can prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs, it does not change the fact it is a very low-end interpretation and frankly not much better than some Astartes in many cases. Guilliman's performance particularly pales in comparison to that of Corax, who takes on greater odds while wounded and if not particularly troubled by any of it. Heck,, Guilliman's performance is some of the weakest I've ever seen in the Heresy series yet.

It is particularly interesting that you cite Swallow's Sanguinius, since he showcases one of the strongest examples of a Primarch, with Sanguinius beating a Bloodthirster who slew 500 Marines in one axe-blow, and punching hard enough to send shockwaves through the air

Now if you want to take Abnett's interpretation, than that's all fine and dandy. I've already said I'm not particularly bothered by it. But please don't attempt to justify it to me. If you don't have anything else then I don't even see a point to this conversation.


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## Lord of the Night

Gree said:


> To put this as diplomatically as possible, I generally find debating with you is an unpleasant and time-wasting experience.


Saying this with no shred of diplomacy whatsoever as I think using diplomacy to insult someone is the equivalent of saying it with a tight smile and a too-polite tone, I feel the same way about you. I simply decided to make my viewpoint known.



Gree said:


> It is particularly interesting that you cite Swallow's Sanguinius, since he showcases one of the strongest examples of a Primarch, with Sanguinius beating a Bloodthirster who slew 500 Marines in one axe-blow, and punching hard enough to send shockwaves through the air.


I quote that Sanguinius because he showed the power level I expect of a Primarch but also was capable of being matched by a powerful foe. Ka'Bandha is an extremely powerful Daemon and it's right that he could have killed Sanguinius if he hadn't been so arrogant as to leave him alive to watch his Legion suffer.



Gree said:


> Now if you want to take Abnett's interpretation, than that's all fine and dandy. I've already said I'm not particularly bothered by it. But please don't attempt to justify it to me. If you don't have anything else then I don't even see a point to this conversation.


So be it. Conversation ended.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I'm going to try and avoid jumping on the band wagon and not tweeze out the niceties. I have learnt to accept the irregularities and inconsistencies throughout the various Heresy novels (such as the portrayals of particular Primarchs).

I enjoyed the novel... ish. It was good. But in all honesty (and I'm really trying to not be unnecessarily critical) I feel it suffered from focussing too much on carrying on the plot of (that terrible novel) Vulkan Lives. Too much of the novel seemed to revolve around Vulkan and Curze (and that annoying Word Bearer with the sniper rifle), and too little around the politics of the Lion, Guilliman and Sanguinius. I got the impression from Savage Weapons and The Lion that Jonson was going to inherently oppose Imperium Secundus, challenge Guilliman and not fanny around. And because Sanguinius was only introduced a few pages from the end, he just seemed to accept it near-automatically. I would have liked to have seen much more political manoeuvring, much more conflict and strife between the triumvirate of loyal Primarchs and, quite frankly, more Sanguinius and the Blood Angels. 

I'm not overly keen on the direction the perpetual sub-plot has taken to this point. I was excited about its potential after Legion and Know No Fear, but I don't like the way Kyme diverted it (which Abnett has now sustained). Similarly, I don't like the way the Cabal have been handled since Legion either. 

Not Abnett's best contribution to the series, but not bad.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'm going to try and avoid jumping on the band wagon and not tweeze out the niceties. I have learnt to accept the irregularities and inconsistencies throughout the various Heresy novels (such as the portrayals of particular Primarchs).
> 
> I enjoyed the novel... ish. It was good. But in all honesty (and I'm really trying to not be unnecessarily critical) I feel it suffered from focussing too much on carrying on the plot of (that terrible novel) Vulkan Lives. Too much of the novel seemed to revolve around Vulkan and Curze (and that annoying Word Bearer with the sniper rifle), and too little around the politics of the Lion, Guilliman and Sanguinius. I got the impression from Savage Weapons and The Lion that Jonson was going to inherently oppose Imperium Secundus, challenge Guilliman and not fanny around. And because Sanguinius was only introduced a few pages from the end, he just seemed to accept it near-automatically. I would have liked to have seen much more political manoeuvring, much more conflict and strife between the triumvirate of loyal Primarchs and, quite frankly, more Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.
> 
> I'm not overly keen on the direction the perpetual sub-plot has taken to this point. I was excited about its potential after Legion and Know No Fear, but I don't like the way Kyme diverted it (which Abnett has now sustained). Similarly, I don't like the way the Cabal have been handled since Legion either.
> 
> Not Abnett's best contribution to the series, but not bad.


Completely agree. The immortality angle of Vulkan has been, in all honesty, ridiculous. Having _a few_ immortal characters is a novelty if used the right way. Grammaticus being immortal was fine for me because it wasn't overdone/overused, he "dies" in one novel and doesn't come back until a good few novels later. However when you reach a point where there's (at least) four immortals who are capable of re-spawning multiple times per chapter it gets a little tiresome and is not something I would associate with the self-sacrifice theme in the Horus Heresy. For me the Heresy is all about the tragic mortality of seemingly immortal beings.

Whether it was his intention or not Abnett has rectified some of this; Grammaticus has only one life left and I suspect Vulkan will receive a similar treatment. It's just a shame that the perpetual arc has had to be dragged down and diluted by, of all people, Vulkan. In his afterword Abnett notes that the novel is about drawing together the plots and characters of previous stories which, I think, may be a polite way of saying some of the arcs we've seen have been redundant (that god-awful sniper and Vulkan) and are now resolved whereas others, while entertaining, have simply run their course and will move on (Imperium Secundus).


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> (And that annoying Word Bearer with the sniper rifle.)





NiceGuyEddy said:


> (That god-awful sniper.)


What's the problem with Barthusa Narek?? I quite like him and his character arc. I find Narek to be an interesting subversion of the Loyalist from the Traitor Legions theme that goes on with quite a few characters. Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Barbaras Dantioch, Nathaniel Garro, Macer Varren; all of them proved that they were loyaller to the Emperor and his ideals than they were to their Primarchs and their ideals. But Narek is different from all of them, he is loyal to the Emperor but unlike the others he has not disowned his Legion, rather he is loyal to the original ideals of it and believes that the Emperor is a god. And unlike them he is a fanatic, the really dangerous kind that is prepared to do anything to save his Legion from Chaos and remove anyone that he feels stands in the way. But also he is prepared to accept a lot, I was very surprised when he told Grammaticus that if he plans to kill Vulkan to, paraphrasing, just get it over with and then come with me. He not only didn't care about a Loyalist Primarch dying but he was more than willing to be a part of it, and gun down Vulkan, if it got him what he wanted.

I really do not think he'll die on Macragge, he has a lot left in his character arc. Of course he won't kill Lorgar but maybe he'll do something else that will disrupt Lorgar's plans and perhaps nudge the course of the Heresy towards a Loyalist victory. Or maybe he will be a part of the Cabal plot and work towards frustrating their aims and denying the Traitors their crushing victory. Either way i'm interested to see where this character goes, Barthusa Narek has become one of the characters i'm most interested in in the Heresy overall along with Sevatar, Kharn and Garro. (Argel Tal used to be on that list.)


LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Yeah Poor Argel! 
Now all what's left - is to wait for Sevatar to become a Grey Knights first chapter master :sarcastichand:


----------



## Anakwanar

And Narek is awesome - but most importantly - he will do the most awesome thing in the next nexus novel


----------



## Brother Lucian

Anakwanar said:


> Yeah Poor Argel!
> Now all what's left - is to wait for Sevatar to become a Grey Knights first chapter master :sarcastichand:


I think ADB debunked that one I heard.


----------



## Anakwanar

> I think ADB debunked that one I heard.


I will believe that - then i see that with my own eyes. He just could be trolling us.:sarcastichand:
No grievance for ADB here. We all love Dead.Blue.Clown :music:


----------



## kwak76

Regarding primarchs strength level and the inconsistency of it. 

Some people think that Abnett displayed Guilliman as weak because he almost got killed by hit team of Alpha Legions. Where as in other novels such as in the "Betrayer" , where Lorgar got a blast from a titan but survived . I think however Lorgar at that time had some of the powers from chaos if I recall and he wrote a chaos book that help healed him after that incident. It was in the same book where Guilliman took on both Angron and Lorgar in a fight. Although Guilliman was losing to Angron he did held his own for awhile taking on both of them. 

To say that Guilliman is the weakest because he almost got killed by a hit team of Alpha Legions has to bear in mind there was a short story in the book 'Primarchs " , regarding Fulgrim , where the captains of the Emperor Children took him down to see if he was possessed or not. The captains of the Emperor Children intention was not to kill but to capture. Some will argue that Fulgrim let the captains capture him but the point I'm trying to make is that a Primarch can be taken down.


About Vulkan in the book he was maybe at 20 % physcial and 0 % mental ..and maybe not even 20% physical but still at that state he took on Curze and held his own in the book. Some people think that Curze was too strong in the novel. As some one else mentioned he was fighting in his element. Curze uses terror tactics with traps and everything. 

When Curze took on both the Lion and Guilliman the outcome would of been Curze getting killed but he set up bomb trap so the outcome did not come about. This fight reminds me of Guilliman taking on both Angron and Lorgar . For awhile Guilliman was holding his own taking on both but the outcome would of been Guilliman losing in the end. 

Curze fights dirty. His like a terrorist with bombs set up to scare people. Where as the Lion and Guilliman fight straight up. To fight a terrorist you need someone that can think like a hunter or fight like a ninja. Russ , Khan and Corax comes to mind.


----------



## kwak76

Overall I think the novel is good. Thank God for Abnett . Where as I struggled reading "Vulkan lives", and actually stopped half way but now have to go back to it because of the new World Bearer character that came into play. 


It would of been more interesting regarding the politics of Second Empire and how the primarchs would of think different of it. I mean in other stories the Lion was depicted as someone who craves to be warmaster and would do under hand tactics to gain some leverages. And I would like to know more about how Sanguinius felt about this. 

I also feel that the cabals are being overplayed and that their depiction in "Legions" , is somewhat different . I mean when I read Legions I felt that the cabals were this super powerful alien race but realize after reading this novel they are mostly Eldars . This changes everything. 

I mean if the bulk of the cabals are Eldars who screwed it up eons ago ..how much can you trust their view point? Which leads to the question about the Alpha Legions and their alliance. And raises another question should humanity just burn out so chaos can be destroyed ? or can Humanity somehow be the champion against chaos? 

I mean chaos from my understanding gains power from emotion. But there should be some balance. I'm surprise that Black library has not created a good God to balance things out unless there is one.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

kwak76 said:


> I mean when I read Legions I felt that the cabals were this super powerful alien race but realize *after reading this novel they are mostly Eldars .*


So as you said a super powerful alien race...one that controlled the whole galaxy for quite some while until about the rime they created a chaos god.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Unremembered Novel.

This is a patently and thoroughly mediocre novel, and I'm only about 2/3rds of the way through listening to it. This is introducing a ridiculous amount of convolution to the plotline, and not adding anything useful to the overall story.

The Horus Heresy novels following the so-called "main plot" were going well when they were following the original framework of the Horus Heresy Story. You know, that one where it's been set for like 20 years.

Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flisenstein, Fulgrim (mostly), A Thousand Sons, First Heretic, and Know No Fear. Not all of those are really good, but they're, at worst, decent.

Then you have all the novels where The Black Library authors went off the reservation and were making shit up as they went along... Battle for the Abyss, Deliverance Lost, Outcast Dead, Betrayer, Vulkan Lives... all awful. 

I'm not sure yet where to lump this one into, but it's much closer to the second group than it is to the first.


----------



## Angel of Blood

kwak76 said:


> Curze fights dirty. His like a terrorist with bombs set up to scare people. Where as the Lion and Guilliman fight straight up..


Though the Lion has proven that he is more than capable of fighting Curze in the past. I still see it as more, Guilliman and the Lion getting in each others way.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> Though the Lion has proven that he is more than capable of fighting Curze in the past. I still see it as more, Guilliman and the Lion getting in each others way.


I see it as both Guilliman and the Lion getting in each other's way but also something else. I think that when Curze fought the Lion in _Savage Weapons_ he wasn't at the top of his game, he wasn't in full control of himself. I think that Curze in _The Unremembered Empire_ is him fully lucid and in complete control of himself, and thus fighting at his full potential. So... quite scary stuff.


LotN


----------



## Lupe

Lord of the Night said:


> I see it as both Guilliman and the Lion getting in each other's way but also something else. I think that when Curze fought the Lion in _Savage Weapons_ he wasn't at the top of his game, he wasn't in full control of himself. I think that Curze in _The Unremembered Empire_ is him fully lucid and in complete control of himself, and thus fighting at his full potential. So... quite scary stuff.
> 
> 
> LotN


That's one good way of looking at it...

I rather thought the whole arc went differently, though.

At first, Curze was displaying typical sadist behavior. He was trying to look his victim in the eyes, even as he was eviscerating them.

As the Lion starts showing signs that he's not the easy victim he expected him to be, Curze starts to look for ways to hurt the Lion (and, subsequently Guilliman, as well) from an increasingly safer distance, to minimize the risk to himself (hence the booby traps, for instance).

Since the threat of pain or physical damage has produced no significant results in the past, he also starts focusing more and more on psychological warfare (mass murdering legionnaires), in order to both sap other primarchs' morale, as well as goading them into reckless action by forcing them to do the honorable thing and place themselves at risk.

Curze isn't actually becoming a better fighter by stepping up his game. He's starting to lose himself even more than usual; he's resorting to base instincts and low cunning even more so than usual... 

Just think about it... he's so focused on making Ultramar bleed that he doesn't even free Sevatar and the other captives, despite the fact that he could probably have done so, and since bleeding Ultramar is his goal, he would have most certainly benefited from an unspecified number of legionnaires dispersing across an entire world to wreak havoc at will...;


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lupe said:


> That's one good way of looking at it...
> 
> I rather thought the whole arc went differently, though.
> 
> At first, Curze was displaying typical sadist behavior. He was trying to look his victim in the eyes, even as he was eviscerating them.
> 
> As the Lion starts showing signs that he's not the easy victim he expected him to be, Curze starts to look for ways to hurt the Lion (and, subsequently Guilliman, as well) from an increasingly safer distance, to minimize the risk to himself (hence the booby traps, for instance).
> 
> Since the threat of pain or physical damage has produced no significant results in the past, he also starts focusing more and more on psychological warfare (mass murdering legionnaires), in order to both sap other primarchs' morale, as well as goading them into reckless action by forcing them to do the honorable thing and place themselves at risk.
> 
> Curze isn't actually becoming a better fighter by stepping up his game. He's starting to lose himself even more than usual; he's resorting to base instincts and low cunning even more so than usual...
> 
> Just think about it... he's so focused on making Ultramar bleed that he doesn't even free Sevatar and the other captives, despite the fact that he could probably have done so, and since bleeding Ultramar is his goal, he would have most certainly benefited from an unspecified number of legionnaires dispersing across an entire world to wreak havoc at will...;


Curze never cared about his legion, they are completely insignificant to him and just getting in the way. As I see it, he was positively exulting in that he could return to form as a lone vigilante against a whole world, just like in his youth.


----------



## Anakwanar

Another nexus novel - will they EVER END THIS ULTRAMAR BACKWATER stuff. I don't want a fights between Primarchs - when we all know, that nobody dies where. 
And please kill this Vulkan at last - it's tiresome - dead-live-dead-live....... Is anyone stays DEAD in the HH ANYMORE? :smoke:


----------



## bobss

I advocated _Prospero Burns_ relentlessly for so many years, but in a single instance my arguments have been shattered and my hypocrisy revealed to the light. I admit it -- I am a _fairly disappointed_ by the lack of Sanguinius in this novel. Abnett-Guilliman has been the star of the series after Horus, for me, but after the lukewarm _Fear to Tread_, I hoped for more.

I hoped for what the cover promised. A union of Astartes and primarchs; a second Ullanor, a loyalist mirror to Isstvan V; Imperium Secundus; a brittle union between the tactician and the Angel, with the Lion driving between them like a wedge.

Ah well, I shan't judge a book by its spoilers. Pound-for-pound, Abnett has never disappointed me with his work, and I won't cast an accusing finger at Kyme, neither.


----------



## Chalji

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Then you have all the novels where The Black Library authors went off the reservation and were making shit up as they went along... Battle for the Abyss, Deliverance Lost, Outcast Dead, Betrayer, Vulkan Lives... all awful.


BotA I can understand, but Betrayer? Really? 

I'm not sure I understand your "off the reservation" comment in regards to Betrayer. Prior to Betrayer here was Angron's total known storyline.

Angron was angry. Then he became a demon prince. Then some stuff on Armageddon happened. The End.

The reservation? There wasn't enough fluff there to fill a thimble. What we got in Betrayer was absolutely brilliant and actually made Angron a three dimensional character instead of just Angry Primarch. 

I won't argue over the other books you mentioned, but lumping Betrayer in with those is just...wrong.

As for Unremembered Empire, I thought it was excellent as well. I really don't understand the line of critique stemming from "But why wasn't the Lion being more of a dick to Guilliman regarding Imperium Secundus?"

Did we read the same novel? The Lion came in and had his Marines in drop pods ready to attack Macragge during the same time he was meeting Roboute. He deliberately kept Curze's existence from the Ultramarines, made it abundantly clear that the only reason he didn't attack Roboute was because Guilliman had kept his honesty about his intentions clear and that _Roboute had turned down the regency_

The Lion didn't want Roboute to declare himself Regent, went to Ultramar to make sure that didn't happen, and then Roboute didn't declare himself Regent. So why exactly should the Lion continue making trouble _if he got everything he wanted?_ 

I think it is far more interesting to speculate as to what happened between now and the Battle of Terra in regards to the Lion and Roboute. _Something_ happened to keep those two from Terra and that could be potentially quite a compelling story.

The best part about Unremembered Empire is that it was the uber-nexus story. Pretty much all the existing plot threads connected here and so we have a nice clean slate moving forward. I'm excited.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Chalji said:


> So why exactly should the Lion continue making trouble _if he got everything he wanted?_


I'm not arguing against you here, because your points are all entirely valid. But the nagging criticism that has established itself in my mind is that the Lion's portrayal seemed to be quite different to that of _Fallen Angels_ (where he was politically manoeuvring to gain support for his bid to become Warmaster), _Savage Weapons_ (where he openly denounces Guilliman) and _The Lion_ (where he further denounces Guilliman). Obviously all of these portrayals have been done by different authors, but it just seemed to me that the Lion accepts the notion of Imperium Secundus too readily (even with Sanguinius chucked into the picture in the last few pages). In his mannerisms, speech and interactions with Guilliman throughout the novel he just seems too... polite... given his previous portrayals (thinking he should have been Warmaster and despite Horus's betrayal was still manoeuvring to claim that title, his claims that Guilliman was just as bad as Horus, his arrogance at being the First Primarch, etc).

But hey, this isn't a major slagging off by me. I enjoyed the novel.


----------



## Chalji

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Obviously all of these portrayals have been done by different authors, but it just seemed to me that the Lion accepts the notion of Imperium Secundus too readily (even with Sanguinius chucked into the picture in the last few pages).


I think that can be attributed to two years of frustration in the Thramas Crusade. While the Dark Angels "won" that series of battles, it probably showed the Lion exactly how screwed up everything was. After that, Guilliman's proposal probably seemed like a bit of sanity after so much crap, thus reversing his earlier skepticism.

And again, everything the Lion knew at the point was that allegiances were broken. Rumor and innuendo ruled the day and no one could be trusted. He was ready to gut Macragge, up until Roboute showed his loyalty to the Throne. 

We also can be fairly sure that the Lion isn't going to turn his back to Roboute completely. He'll be watching just in case. But I understand your point.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Finished this last night so I feel I can join in here now, and frankly, I'm wondering what all the fuss was about. The whole novel kept building and building to... nothing. 

It's always nice to see more of the primarchs up close, but I wasn't totally impressed with them. Guilliman was a bit of a pussy. He nearly gets totalled by just 10 marines? Seriously? We've seen Vulkan bully a super heavy tank, Ferrus wade through TS like a knife through better, Corax kick ass and take names, Kharn go off like a tactical nuke and even that pussy Lorgar take on a titan, but Guilliman can barely handle 10 marines?

Grammaticus went from being a bad ass in Legion to a pussy in VL! to back to being a bit of a bad ass in this. The whole perpetual thing is being bled dry at this stage though. I hope they just let Oll Persson get where we all know he has to, and leave it at that.

I'm left with the distinct impression that this was a gap filler. Which is a pity, because I was so looking forward to it. Hopefully _Scars _will lift my spirits after this bit of a let down.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Chalji said:


> BotA I can understand, but Betrayer? Really?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your "off the reservation" comment in regards to Betrayer. Prior to Betrayer here was Angron's total known storyline.
> 
> Angron was angry. Then he became a demon prince. Then some stuff on Armageddon happened. The End.
> 
> The reservation? There wasn't enough fluff there to fill a thimble. What we got in Betrayer was absolutely brilliant and actually made Angron a three dimensional character instead of just Angry Primarch.
> 
> I won't argue over the other books you mentioned, but lumping Betrayer in with those is just...wrong.


I'm glad you enjoyed it, but really, it served no purpose other than to create a new, and inconsistent picture of the World Eaters, and take up 400 pages of paper.

Not in that it was bolter porn, but that literally the entire first part of the novel serves no purpose other than to describe a battle with no grander significance. I don't have it at hand, but we're talking over a dozen chapters to cover relatively minor details. It has more than 200 pages just of filler. I mean, seriously, place Angron's homeworld anywhere other than Ultramar, and suddenly you don't even need the Ultramarines or the battle on the training planet at all. Angron goes to his homeworld to take his revenge, Lorgar channels his hatred and rage to turn him into a daemon prince, Kharn picks up the abandoned Gorechild, and we've literally told the same story, but succinctly and efficiently.

The only reason the story even gets shoehorned into Ultramar is to facilitate the corny, and worse, unfulfilling, threeway Primarch battle. And it's a shame, because the more silly battles between Primarchs with contrived exits so they can all fight another day, the less meaning any of those conflicts have. 

Think about how powerful the story of Sangunius confronting Horus is. How powerful the story of Fulgrim and Ferrus's duel is. That's because there are consequences. How many times now in the Horus Heresy series have the Primarchs fought epic battles to the death... only for nobody to die because of some silly plot device to break them up? At this point, it's little more than fan service. Primarch battles are the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Horus Heresy, lol.

Unremembered Empire will eventually be known as Unremembered Novel. There's nothing going on here, in terms of things we need to know about. This is another a short story bloated out to a full novel. Abnett punishes us with more jibberish about perpetuals, facilitates another boring and corny three way battle between primarchs who probably shouldn't even be in the same place at the same time, and introduces more goofy stereotype Marines. 

And on top of that it's just opening up more plot holes, and facilitating new ones. I honestly don't think the Black Library has any idea what they're doing at this point, other than trying to figure out how to sell us more books. This novel does nothing more than offer up the segue to the next novel about nothing. Unless you just absolutely had to read another set of indecisive, conclusionless, and ultimately meaningless battle between primarchs, you wasted any time you spent reading this. 


2/5 stars. I give it 2 just because it's fairly well written from a technical standpoint. It's just that it never deserved to be a novel in the first place. I think the better name for it is Unremembered Novel, because in the end, after this series is finally dragged out to its conclusion, it will be a forgettable middle chapter of the Heresy, notable only for the events of its own final chapter, and perhaps not even that. It's not awful, it's just... pointless.


----------



## kwak76

Veteran Sergeant,

I kind of agree what your saying. However, I did enjoy reading "Unremembered Empire" , I understand that in the over all of the heresy story line it doesn't contribute as much as the earlier novels did. 

I think to some extent Black library is stretching out the heresy . We all know from the fluff what happened. It's possible that the heresy novels could of been shorten but this is game work shop we are dealing with which is a publicly traded company. So the bottom line is more important. 

Hence, why we have the the serialize white scars novels being release piece by piece.


----------



## hailene

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Primarch battles are the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Horus Heresy, lol.


I know you didn't intend it this way but...

At least in my experience, Western literature is slanted more towards how events scuplt the story while Eastern literature focuses on the characters that drive the events. Not saying that either of them focus exclusively on either (and of course each individual story has its own mix of the two), but as a general rule of thumb that's how it goes. In my experience.

And speaking of panty-shots, I think this one clearly has Guilliman wearing a pair of shimpan (too oblique? Don't worry about it). In other words, I think we got more of a feel for how Guilliman really feels about the Heresy.

I think it advanced Guilliman in a more likeable way, overall. People complained about him planning a Second Imperium. Well, now we get to see this planning from his perspective. And boy is it an eye-opener.

He doesn't want to lead the Imperium, first or second. He'd be happy to hand it off to anyone, even Russ.

Furthermore, we learn that Guilliman didn't think he was the end-all-be-all. We get to read how he acknowledges that he felt Horus and the Lion actually stood above him. He admired those two. That's something new and, I think, interesting to see. 

We also get to see the ramifications of Istvaan V amongst the Loyalist Primarchs. There's not an ounce of trust to be had. I thought the moments when Guilliman and the Lion first met were very interesting. Particularly when Guilliman orders the void shield lowered during their meal, despite how recent events would have said to do otherwise.

I'm sure the Vulkan sub-plot will also yield something. I just started _Vulkan Lives_. I didn'y enjoy this subplot, but maybe I should have read _Vulkan Lives_ first? We'll see how that turns out.
~~~~~~~~~

I will say, the last quarter of the novel was poop. I didn't like the Curze fight. He shouldn't have been there.

I didn't really like the whole Vulkan-perpetual subplot. I also didn't like how he died like 8 times in the end. Yeah, sure, not in the best shape, still healing, whatever. Still, he was weaker than a Space Marine, I feel.

Yeah, the whole "teleport-with-feeling" thing was retarded as hell. And then Guilliman magically teleporting back WITH the Lion, nonetheless. That seemed too convenient.

The first three quarters of the book was good enough that I was still riding its high as I ran into the disaster that the last part of the book was. In the end, I thought it was pretty good...as a means of fleshing out Guilliman's character.


----------



## Phoebus

I have to agree with *Child-of-the-Emperor's* take.

It's painfully obvious by now that there simply isn't a recognized "standard" for what a Primarch can and cannot do. It varies both by author by author and novel by novel - even when we're talking about different novels by the same author. We have to accept that a Primarch can do (or cannot do) *whatever the author needs him to for the sake of the story.* Quite bluntly, get used to Fulgrim taking the proverbial power fist to the face in one story, only for Roboute to be warned of dying from a bolter round to the face in another.

This ties in directly to what I felt was one of the two weak points of the novel - Konrad Curze as the primary antagonist of the story. Because he's basically the _only_ antagonist of the story worth mentioning, Dan had to write him and the other Primarchs in a way that makes them stand in, yes, sharp contrast to what we've come to expect. Specifically, the Night Haunter has to be far more dynamic and capable than we've seen him before; on the other hand, Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson have to be far less capable than we would expect.

The above ties to the other weak point of 'The Unremembered Empire' - it's a direct continuation of 'Vulkan Lives'. Fitting in Vulkan's storyline with that of Imperium Secundus is like trying to wedge the proverbial square peg in the round hole. Hindsight is always 20-20, and I hate to inject it into a novel, but I'd much rather have seen those two storylines resolved on their own.



Brother Lucian said:


> I think ADB debunked that one I heard.


I'd be interested to see where. To the best of my knowledge, ADB has been very non-commital about this topic. I wouldn't blame him, either way. I only half-jokingly pursue the topic of Sevatar-as-Khyron, but assuming it's a real thing, the last thing ADB would want to do is make any sort of firm statement about the topic.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Khyzer

Phoebus said:


> I'd be interested to see where. To the best of my knowledge, ADB has been very non-commital about this topic. I wouldn't blame him, either way. I only half-jokingly pursue the topic of Sevatar-as-Khyron, but assuming it's a real thing, the last thing ADB would want to do is make any sort of firm statement about the topic.


ADB posted on his facebook 


ADB said:


> No, that isn't what happens to Sevatar. Nice try, forums. Nice try.


He is not specific as to what rumor about Sevatar we got wrong, but as it is really the only one talked about it is generally assumed the Sevatar/Khyron rumor is what is being referred to.

Also, I share CotE thoughts, about the novel and was really hoping for a more political/moral story regarding all the Primarch present and discussing the merits to Imperium Secundus, and a little less watching Vulkan die pointlessly over and over.

EDIT: that's not to say I did not thoroughly enjoy the novel, was very nice to read a fluid and coherent novel for a change lol.


----------



## Phoebus

You'll forgive me if I require something with a bit more substance than that, I'm sure.


----------



## Khyzer

Phoebus said:


> You'll forgive me if I require something with a bit more substance than that, I'm sure.


Ya I hear you, I'm still hoping it turns out to be true as I believe ADB would make that into one hell of a story. I was just posting the evidence of where ADB supposedly "debunked" it.


----------



## Phoebus

Ah, fair enough!


----------



## Rems

Consistency rears its ugly head again. 

As much i like the Heresy series i find it pathetic that they've been unable to establish any ground rules and create a truly consistent setting. Honestly, how many books did it take to even get the legion sizes sorted? 

Things like the legion sizes, a basic timeline, the abilities of the primarchs should have been established early on. What exactly is discussed in the Heresy Meetings we've heard about? Whatever is, it's not helping consistency. 
@Veteran Sergeant

It was set in Ultramar as that was the key part of Lorgar and Horus' plan. To cut off the Ultramarines and Ultramar from the rest of the Imperium Lorgar used the bloodshed of his invasion into Ultramar to create the warpstorms to isolate Ultramar. 

The battle on the training planet (or rather the war world) was to show us the mentality of the World Eaters and their relationship with their primrach. That was essentially what the whole novel was about.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Rems said:


> Honestly, how many books did it take to even get the legion sizes sorted?


(I know it was a rhetorical question, but I feel the need to answer it regardless.)

It took the Heresy team 12 full novels to finally establish that there was a need to clarify the Legion sizes. From that perspective it really does seem that there was pitifully little organisation going on in the first half of the series. 

I do think it is better now and that they have learnt a few lessons, but it is still below-par.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Rems said:


> @Veteran Sergeant
> 
> It was set in Ultramar as that was the key part of Lorgar and Horus' plan. To cut off the Ultramarines and Ultramar from the rest of the Imperium Lorgar used the bloodshed of his invasion into Ultramar to create the warpstorms to isolate Ultramar.


It's stupid and makes no sense. If Lorgar had _all_ of the Word Bearers in Ultramar, why weren't they at Calth?

The idea of Calth was sacrificing the Word Bearers in a gambit to hold up the Ultramarines. It was Horus's way of using his least valuable but most prolific troops to take the Emperor's best and most prolific troops out of the equation. The rest of the Word Bearers then went to Terra with Lorgar. It's a distraction. A misdirection.

But if all of the Word Bearers were in Ultramar already, why would Lorgar hold up part of them rather than apply overwhelming force at Calth and destroy the Ultramarines utterly? It makes absolutely no strategic sense. Instead he decides to attack bits of Ultramar piecemeal?

Nope. Bad writing, and poor editorial vision at TBL. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Squire

It was a pretty weird book. I was excited to read it and got right into it at first, but found much of it bizarre. I was hoping this was going to be the book that saw Curze die, and I was convinced it was going to happen when Guilliman and Johnson cornered him, but from there the disappointment started building. I hate the whole thing of Vulkan running around insane and could have lived without both that and his story in Vulkan Lives too. I'm not buying the whole thing, it's a bit daft


----------



## Phoebus

Veteran Sergeant said:


> It's stupid and makes no sense. If Lorgar had _all_ of the Word Bearers in Ultramar, why weren't they at Calth?


He didn't have them all in Ultramar for the Battle of Calth - that's the key point. Word Bearers were sent to Calth while Horus was still "loyal", and Word Bearers were sent to Isstvan V while Lorgar was still "loyal".

The timing of the Battle of Calth relative to Isstvan V isn't precisely stated, but it's obvious that it occurred before Guilliman learned of Horus' declaration of rebellion. The arrival of the rest of the Word Bearers to Ultramar occurs after the extent of the treachery of the Legiones Astartes pledged to Horus became apparent.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Squire said:


> I was hoping this was going to be the book that saw Curze die


We know when Curze dies - on Tsagualsa after the Heresy.



Phoebus said:


> He didn't have them all in Ultramar for the Battle of Calth - that's the key point. Word Bearers were sent to Calth while Horus was still "loyal", and Word Bearers were sent to Isstvan V while Lorgar was still "loyal".
> 
> The timing of the Battle of Calth relative to Isstvan V isn't precisely stated, but it's obvious that it occurred before Guilliman learned of Horus' declaration of rebellion. The arrival of the rest of the Word Bearers to Ultramar occurs after the extent of the treachery of the Legiones Astartes pledged to Horus became apparent.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Both Calth and the Shadow Crusade occur after Isstvan V.

Kor Phaeron (who led the assault at Calth) was present during the Drop Site Massacre.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We know when Curze dies - on Nostramo after the Heresy.


Actually he dies at Tsagualsa, Nostramo has already been destroyed by the time the Heresy starts.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually he dies at Tsagualsa, Nostramo has already been destroyed by the time the Heresy starts.
> 
> 
> LotN


You know me well enough to know that was obviously a typo!


----------



## Squire

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We know when Curze dies - on Tsagualsa after the Heresy.


I wish you hadn't told me that. Now I can add Curze to the list of characters I know for a fact won't die in the series, no matter what the situation


----------



## Zinegata

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Both Calth and the Shadow Crusade occur after Isstvan V.
> 
> Kor Phaeron (who led the assault at Calth) was present during the Drop Site Massacre.


Yes, but the implication in KNF is that Ultramar and Guilliman was still unaware that a galaxy-wide war was already underway. He didn't even know that a whole bunch of legions had been dispatched to deal with Horus, much less that the three loyalist legions were all but destroyed.

Also... the Word Bearers (who are not exactly the smartest legion) not sending all of his forces to Calth was important - because the Ultramarines hadn't deployed everyone there. It's explicitly stated in KNF that of 250,000 Ultramarines, some 200,000 were at Calth but the rest were still garrisoning the Ultramar sector. And note that despite the losses, the Ultramarines still had at least 80,000 marines with more replacements apparently incoming - and at 80K men they still almost match the Word Bearers 1:1.

The dumb part for the Word Bearers was trying to just send one battleship to try and destroy Macragge, Saturday Cartoon Villain style, but what do you expect from the militarily inept?

Oh, and as for "stretching out" the Heresy... the Heresy was supposed to last seven years, wasn't it? We're only at Year 2-3 apparently, and people forget that the Siege of Terra (which takes up the bulk of the old fluff) was actually just 2 months out of this seven year period.

Frankly, I think the problem is that the original HH story was problematic to begin with and that people are demanding to see Siege of Terra shenanigans when it's actually (time-wise) a tiny portion of the Crusade. Especially when you have nearly 20 viewpoints to try and cover.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Squire said:


> I wish you hadn't told me that. Now I can add Curze to the list of characters I know for a fact won't die in the series, no matter what the situation


Woops... I assumed everyone already knew that! My bad.



Zinegata said:


> Yes, but the implication in KNF is that Ultramar and Guilliman was still unaware that a galaxy-wide war was already underway. He didn't even know that a whole bunch of legions had been dispatched to deal with Horus, much less that the three loyalist legions were all but destroyed.


It wasn't merely an implication, it was fact. Guilliman was categorically unaware that the Word Bearers had already blooded themselves on the killing fields of Isstvan V when they turned up - hands extended in friendship - at Calth. 



Zinegata said:


> Also... the Word Bearers (who are not exactly the smartest legion) not sending all of his forces to Calth was important - because the Ultramarines hadn't deployed everyone there.


It seems (from _Betrayer_) that the main reason Lorgar didn't send his entire Legion to Calth was because he needed to ravage vast swathes of Ultramar in order to drown it in the Ruinstorm. 



Zinegata said:


> The dumb part for the Word Bearers was trying to just send one battleship to try and destroy Macragge, Saturday Cartoon Villain style, but what do you expect from the militarily inept?


The Word Bearers were certainly not militarily inept. Also, the decision to attack Macragge with the Furious Abyss was not Lorgar's or any of the Legion's central command, it was Zadkiel's "little idiocy" which Lorgar indulged.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You know me well enough to know that was obviously a typo!


Of course it was... :so_happy:



Zinegata said:


> Also... the Word Bearers (who are not exactly the smartest legion) not sending all of his forces to Calth was important - because the Ultramarines hadn't deployed everyone there. It's explicitly stated in KNF that of 250,000 Ultramarines, some 200,000 were at Calth but the rest were still garrisoning the Ultramar sector. And note that despite the losses, the Ultramarines still had at least 80,000 marines with more replacements apparently incoming - and at 80K men they still almost match the Word Bearers 1:1.
> 
> The dumb part for the Word Bearers was trying to just send one battleship to try and destroy Macragge, Saturday Cartoon Villain style, but what do you expect from the militarily inept?


The goal that Lorgar had at Calth was the Third Purge. He had already purged his Legion of all those who wouldn't join him, now he needed to get rid of the inept among his ranks. Those whose hatred of Guilliman and the Ultramarines clouded their judgement and those whose fanaticism was getting in the way of the bigger picture. He never intended to win at Calth, or at least he didn't care if he did or he didn't. He wanted enough death to occur at Calth and the rest of Ultramar so that he could cause the Ruinstorm. That was Lorgar's goal in Ultramar, not a military victory over the Ultramarines like most of the Word Bearers believed but a way to keep them out of the conflict while the Traitors deal with the Emepror.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

Calth was also used by Lorgar as another purge of his Legion. Where he sent those who were becoming too far gone to control and were becoming unreliable. 

Shit as the story is, the _Furious Abyss_, still in all likelihood would have succeeded in it's mission quite easily if the loyalists hadn't gotten on board.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

They had two of them as well.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Three, you mean.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Ah ok  I thought only Lorgar had one during _Betrayer_, must of forgot the other


----------



## Zinegata

Needing to purge large portions of the Legion for supposed ineptitude very much confirms my case that the Word Bearers fall squarely in the militarily inept portion of the scale.

If they were actually any good, maybe they'd actually conquer the galaxy without needing pixy magic from psycho Gods to do their work for them. :grin:


----------



## Khyzer

The more and more I sit here and think about the novel, the more I'm convinced this was such a huge missed opportunity... I personally was completely intrigued by the perpetual plot line when it was introduced in _Legion_. But I think they should have just left it at Grammaticus and Oll Persson, and left any other mention of other perpetuals as just fond memories between them during any rare conversations they have. The idea of just how rare and special the perpetuals were is one of the things that made them so cool and exciting. I'm always drawn back to a statement by ADB about how he hates in sci fi, there is this infinitely large universe, and some how every plot character seems to know each other or is connected in some way. Going from having never heard of this perpetual phenomenon, to now in a few books having so many, just is jarring and unpleasant. 

And considering Vulkan... Ugh.... Is it really necessary to keep killing him so fucking much?? Like I get they like to experiment with different ways to kill a Primarch now that they technically can... But Jesus that shit is stupid and boring.... It just destoryed any mental image I had of Vulkan prior to these last two books. I was quite fond of my Vulkan who loved worthless humans, yet when pissed off was the first one to start chucking mother fucking tanks lol. Now he is just a stumbling fool who is only capable of getting in the way of bullets... I was actually pretty cool with the whole immortal twist for Vulkan, but I would have actually liked to see him "last seen" stuck in a torture device in Curze/Perturabo's dungeon. And just left the location undisclosed so that he could still be around in the 40k, for if they ever decide to bring some loyalist Primarchs back. 

Now... Excusing all that garbage out of _Unremembered Empire_ and focusing more on the politics between Sanguinius, Guilliman and El'Johnson over the merits of starting this continuation empire/grab for power. I believe that story line, mixed with candidates from each legion present and their individual perspective, would have been fucking fantastic.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Remember, Vulkan is broken, insane and not thinking. He is focused on hitting Kurze. His tactics and most of his skill have gone right out the window and he is lumbering around charging like a mad bull.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Whilst I didn't hate this bit, or like it really either, what was everyone else's thoughts on the Dark Angels doing all that ceremonial drill. Rifle tossing and marching much like on a drill square. It just doesn't seem very.....astartes like to me for some reason. Again, didn't hate it, but it did make me go 'hmm?'


----------



## Phoebus

Same here.

I got the message Dan was trying to convey with the synchronized landings, which impressed even Guilliman. And I would have appreciated complex formation drills with specific military applications, even if it would have been anachronistic. I mean, formation drills date back to ancient times, when Greek phalanxes and Roman cohorts required great coordination and lots of practice to take to form cohesive units, assume battle formations, change direction, depth, or spacing, etc.

The whole rifle toss thing, though, didn't do much for me. Why? Precisely because there isn't a _specific military application to it._ Such drill, admirable as it might be for the discipline it entails, is purely for ceremony. The Legiones Astartes don't have time to be practicing things that don't directly tie in to martial skill, tactics, or strategy, though - in my humble opinion.


----------



## theurge33

I agree with the rifle toss thing...I thought it was a little silly. Thee could have been another way for The Lion to showboat upon his landing.

I also agree with Khyser about Vulkan dying so much. Yes he wasn't fully healed, out of his mind etc..but he was DYING at every fall, gun shot etc...limit it to a couple deaths to show his current state of weakness rather than the ten or so we saw. There was a little redemption in his last fight with Curze when he had his hammer back...fairly whooped him at the end.

And to add to the Curze being unstoppable portions that were mentioned, that was a bit much too but what annoyed me more than how beasting Curze was in combat (I favor the OP depiction of the primarchs over the more susceptible ones) was his visions of the future! I mean he knew everything and I always imagined his forecasting to be a bit less exact. He may has well be Tzeentch himself.

On a side note, what is the difference between Curze and Sang with regards to their psychic gifts?


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Well previously Curze had horrid, painful visions that only ever showed him the dark things that were coming, his death, his brothers death, men dead.

Where as Sanguinius was closer to what we see of Curze in the book.

I think Abnett upped the potency and accuracy of Konrads visions in this book.


----------



## Khyzer

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Remember, Vulkan is broken, insane and not thinking. He is focused on hitting Kurze. His tactics and most of his skill have gone right out the window and he is lumbering around charging like a mad bull.


Oh no, I completely understand the situation and it makes sense for Vulkan to act the way he does. I just think it is such a weak gimmick that storytellers abuse these days as a "reset button." I just believe there were sooooo many possible avenues to explore that would have been much more intriguing then amnesia... Especially for such a prominent character as a Primarch, and double on the fact that its a Primarch until just RECENTLY was completely missing and unknown about post-Isstvan V. Just poor decision making when it came to fleshing out his character arc.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I blame Kyme. :wink:


----------



## Drac0nis99

Khyzer said:


> The more and more I sit here and think about the novel, the more I'm convinced this was such a huge missed opportunity... I personally was completely intrigued by the perpetual plot line when it was introduced in _Legion_. But I think they should have just left it at Grammaticus and Oll Persson, and left any other mention of other perpetuals as just fond memories between them during any rare conversations they have. The idea of just how rare and special the perpetuals were is one of the things that made them so cool and exciting. I'm always drawn back to a statement by ADB about how he hates in sci fi, there is this infinitely large universe, and some how every plot character seems to know each other or is connected in some way. Going from having never heard of this perpetual phenomenon, to now in a few books having so many, just is jarring and unpleasant.
> 
> And considering Vulkan... Ugh.... Is it really necessary to keep killing him so fucking much?? Like I get they like to experiment with different ways to kill a Primarch now that they technically can... But Jesus that shit is stupid and boring.... It just destoryed any mental image I had of Vulkan prior to these last two books. I was quite fond of my Vulkan who loved worthless humans, yet when pissed off was the first one to start chucking mother fucking tanks lol. Now he is just a stumbling fool who is only capable of getting in the way of bullets... I was actually pretty cool with the whole immortal twist for Vulkan, but I would have actually liked to see him "last seen" stuck in a torture device in Curze/Perturabo's dungeon. And just left the location undisclosed so that he could still be around in the 40k, for if they ever decide to bring some loyalist Primarchs back.


Sigh.....I just finished the book and it was a good read I enjoyed it but this story and vulkan lives just killed vulkan in my eyes. My thoughts are pretty much the same as yours brother. This book also made me remember why I do not like the "socially awkward" Lion at all!But overall I would give the book a 8/10 it was interesting that Roboute looked up to the Lion, I was under the impression he thought he was the best of them all.


----------



## Emperors finest

*Unremebered Empire*



Lord of the Night said:


> Ooo sarcasm. That was witty and unexpected.
> 
> 
> Ok in order;
> 
> Turn Titan armour to paste?? Yeah no that's way too much. Primarchs can turn Titan armour into paste with their fists and weapons, so in that case what the hell are they wasting their time with anti-titan weapons then. Just send in the Primarch and have him cut the legs to pieces. And if they can kill God-Machines like that then a Greater Daemon or an Avatar would be absolutely no match, they could just bitch-slap either of them and kill them like that. Obviously you prefer the invincible MDK Primarchs that even an Avatar would shudder at facing, but I prefer the Primarchs that are god-like in battle but can be killed if you fight them the right way.
> 
> Tougher than Terminator armour?? In that case why not just go into battle with only a loin-cloth, that way they won't be slowed down by that all that unnecessary armour. Too much.
> 
> Same for the Fulgrim part. Too much.
> 
> I remember that scene and Corax was fully armoured at the time. And this is of course the fastest Primarch on an open battlefield with a jump-pack. Not a cornered Primarch in ceremonial armour in a tight space that there is very little room to manuever in and without a means of escape or a weapon.
> 
> At what point were grenades enough?? The Alpha Legion Kill-Team was aiming to kill him with a hail of bolter shots, which I add would more than likely be rounds designed to pierce heavily armoured targets, and only used grenades to flush him out.
> 
> 
> Plated in armour he looted from Guilliman's museum. Patch-work armour that would not be very good, and regenerating life is not the same as regenerating flesh. I don't care if you agree or not, i'm just stating an alternate interpretation.
> 
> No what C.S Goto did in his novels is "taking liberties with the settting." What Abnett does here is called an interpretation and every author is entitled to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really see anything in that narration that would imply that just because Vulkan is resurrecting faster means he is regenerating faster. Vulkan is dying and coming back faster, but his wounds are not fully healing and by the time his wounds do start to heal quicker, when Narek blows part of his head off, he is killed repeatedly in a short space of time following that because his mind cannot think of tactics, only charging forward to kill, and thus he is prevented from regenerating fully to fight Curze again.
> 
> Corax = Fastest Primarch. Vulkan = Slowest. The Salamanders gene-seed actually does state that the Salamanders have slower reflexes than other Astartes, and I think it's fair to say that Corax is obviously faster than him.
> 
> 
> Ultimately I prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs from _Know No Fear_ and _The Unremembered Empire_. And Swallow's Sanguinius in _Fear to Tread_ as well. The Primarchs are strong, some of the strongest beings alive, but they are not invulnerable and have been toned down from the earlier novels when their descriptions would imply that there is nothing else in creation on their level. And it also never actually states how long it took Guilliman to kill those Alpha Legionnaires, only that in his mind it felt like hours, which means that it could have been anywhere from 20 seconds to 1 minute. 10 Astartes dead in around 20 seconds, that is still damn good and better than most could do.
> 
> 
> LotN


Totally agree with LotN on this one
No primarch was built the same as eacher other will all having different strengths and weaknesses
I actually think that after reading the book that all of the primarchs that are in it have been given a bit more depth to there character except maybe for Sanguis as there is very little he is involved with un till the end
Really enjoyed the way Guilliman is potrayed as already thinking about what the outcome would be should the emperor and Terra fall to Horus. This shows that is perhaps the finest thinker, strategist that we know he becomes, and this out of all of the Primarchs


Guilliman- on


----------



## Squire

On the issue of how tough primarchs are I quite liked the stuff with Guilliman and the Alpha Legion, and I'd prefer if they came across more vulnerable like he did there. Lorgar getting blasted by a titan and ending up in a crater still alive was just absurd. I like primarchs to be able to kick arse in a big way and be strategic masters oozing charisma, but I want to feel they could be killed in an actual tabletop 40k game.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Squire said:


> On the issue of how tough primarchs are I quite liked the stuff with Guilliman and the Alpha Legion, and I'd prefer if they came across more vulnerable like he did there. Lorgar getting blasted by a titan and ending up in a crater still alive was just absurd. I like primarchs to be able to kick arse in a big way and be strategic masters oozing charisma, but I want to feel they could be killed in an actual tabletop 40k game.


And this is one of the main reasons why there will always be criticisms of the Heresy novels, because everyone has different perspectives on what the limits of a Primarch's capabilities should be.

Personally, I think Lorgar standing up to a titan via psychic means was entirely plausible (as I think every single Primarch portrayal throughout the entire series has been plausible). But then, it doesn't really matter how I justify it or what I think because inevitably people will disagree based on their own interpretations of a Primarch's capabilities, and that's absolutely fine. The only solution is that people accept this variety of opinion among both the fan base and the authors and the inconstant portrayals of the Primarchs between novels.


----------



## Guest

*Chaos triumphs!*

I enjoyed both Vulcan Lives And unremembered empire, especially the part where Gulliman killed 10 Alpha Legion in about 3 seconds, while unarmed and surprised. What was more of a surprise was that Aeonid Thiel, " the censured" appeared to be dead. From what we've been told of Alpha legion infiltration they attach the dead faces of their victims to their own. I would dearly love to know how they managed to take thiels face.. 

Curze did kill a lot of dark angels and ultramarines, but he was in his element. Remember he had his ass handed to him last time he went up against the lion in a one to one. The ultramarines didnt stand a chance, because they could not think like him, unlike the wolves and the scars who handled themselves well.

I was pleased to see vulcans character development in this unremembered empire, he was cool in vulkan lives, but lacked that skinless-flaming-giant-hammer wielding-undead-Demi-god thing. Good move by abnett, hope to see more of him in the future. Apparently he is stronger than Angron. Lols.

No one is stronger than angron. Angron digs himself from under toppled cities, and flips titans over live toys. He has two chain axes, and is red all over. I think the lesson to learn from this book, like all other 40k books is athat Angron is the best primach, he will make a throne from your scull.

Blood for the blood god.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Angron81 said:


> I enjoyed both Vulcan Lives And unremembered empire, especially the part where Gulliman killed 10 Alpha Legion in about 3 seconds, while unarmed and surprised. What was more of a surprise was that Aeonid Thiel, " the censured" appeared to be dead. From what we've been told of Alpha legion infiltration they attach the dead faces of their victims to their own. I would dearly love to know how they managed to take thiels face..
> 
> Apparently he is stronger than Angron. Lols.
> 
> No one is stronger than angron. Angron digs himself from under toppled cities, and flips titans over live toys. He has two chain axes, and is red all over. I think the lesson to learn from this book, like all other 40k books is athat Angron is the best primach, he will make a throne from your scull.
> 
> Blood for the blood god.


Not really, remember how 'Thiel' won't take his helmet off? He won't show his face to Guilliman, so I'm pretty sure Thiel is ok. 

As for Vulkan being stronger, why not? In one novel he might be described as being so, Ferrus in another, Mortarion perhaps in another and sometimes Angron. They all have their own opinions on the matter. You can't say for any certainty, though I for one would say Vulkan and Ferrus would probably tie for top place.


----------



## Lord of the Night

There are contendors for Best (insert quality here) among all the Primarchs, no Primarch is singly better than all the others. Examples;

Strongest Primarch: Angron, Vulkan, Leman Russ.
Fastest Primarch: Jaghatai Khan, Corvus Corax.
Smartest Primarch: Magnus the Red, Roboute Guilliman, Alpharius Omegon.
Stealthiest Primarch: Konrad Curze, Corvus Corax.
Most Enduruable Primarch: Perturabo, Mortarion.
Best Tactician: Alpharius Omegon, Roboute Guilliman, Lion El'Jonson.
Most Inspiring: Sanguinius, Horus Lupercal, Lorgar Aurelian.
Best Crafter: Ferrus Manus, Vulkan.

The Primarchs were designed to be good at nearly everything, true some are better than others at certain things, i.e Corvus Corax is obviously better at stealth than Vulkan and Sanguinius is clearly more inspiring than Konrad Curze, but no Primarch can be considered the best at anything because there is always at least one other Primarch that could be considered as good or better.


LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

> Best Tactician: Alpharius Omegon


Really makes me smile  Especially now, that we know that Omegon has double crossed Alpharius in the Scouring, and left him dry for the UltraSmurfs.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Anakwanar said:


> Really makes me smile  Especially now, that we know that Omegon has double crossed Alpharius in the Scouring, and left him dry for the UltraSmurfs.


What?


----------



## Anakwanar

> What?




New insider info - Omegon and Alpharius survive the Heresy. And Omegon as a bad guy set Alpharius up for the Guilliman during the Scouring - where you should know what will happen at Eskrador.
 


I was right all along - Omegon is a bad guy from the tweens:so_happy:


----------



## Angel of Blood

A: Where is this info from?
B: Thanks for the spoilers, I just love reading them, seriously, I really do love it when something gets spoiled for me. Do you have any more?
C: I'm disinclined to believe they will reveal what actually occurred on Eskrador.


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## Anakwanar

> Thanks for the spoilers, I just love reading them, seriously, I really do love it when something gets spoiled for me. Do you have any more?


*A: *Ok man, i could give you spoilers (about How loyal legions will get to Terra, or what will happen to Malorghast and Angel of Rage etc. etc.) - but just if you will not be so sarcastic and inclined to moke me. 
*B: *If you want - *

you could ask Dan and Sanders at BL Weekender - and just watch for their reaction. Or you could ask Laurie Goulding - and he will give you his usual answer - ' no that is not a truth'. 
*






*C: *If you do not want to believe this - just dont, simply do not read my posts.
Remember our discussion about Scars? So choose to believe or not. 



*And about Eskrador - everyone who knows his warhammer 40k lore - knows about it.*


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## Angel of Blood

What aren't your getting? Don't just smash spoilers out because you can, it's all you seem to do here, jump into threads and yell out your spoilers without any real regard over whether people want to know them or not. If _you_ remember our conversation before, you'll remember how I told you how it looks, others agreed. You still come across with this superior sort of attitude, because you get to these events, say you talk to all these authors, you just can't seem to resist yelling out to everyone how you know what's going to happen, how you own something before others. So many of your posts essentially boil down to 'Hint Hint! I know!' or to that effect.

So no, fuck off with your spoilers, make your own 'spoiler for everyone' thread for all I care, but *stop* posting them on other threads.

As for Eskrador, you clearly have no idea what I was referring to. Go look it up, i'd hate to have to school you on here, because believe me, you may have all your little BL Weekenders and author interviews to tell you what might happen or is going to happen in the future of the series. But I know all there is to know about the lore as it stands. I realise this makes me sound pretty arrogant, but fuck it, I can back it up and have done on here for a long time. 

Bottom line again though. Spoilers.


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## Anakwanar

> What aren't your getting?


Ok that's my point too. Seems you are quick to anger and think you have a monopoly to threads? I do not want escalation. So lets stop here.

I'm not jumping to threads - i wrote dozen of posts this weeks - and they were concrete and informal.

Let's get back to 'The Unremembered Empire, Spoilers abound' conversation


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## Angel of Blood

Anakwanar said:


> Ok that's my point too. Seems you are quick to anger and think you have a monopoly to threads? I do not want escalation. So lets stop here.
> 
> I'm not jumping to threads - i wrote dozen of posts this weeks - and they were concrete and informal.
> 
> Let's get back to 'The Unremembered Empire, Spoilers abound' conversation


No I just despise spoilers, which are still apparent in your above post. Wrap them up like you would wrap your cock up when diving into a Bratislavan whorehouse. Spoiler tags, spoiler tags everywhere, if you think it might be a spoiler, tag it, not sure, tag it, no one will get upset over spoiler tags around something that isn't a spoiler, the reverse is as fully demonstrated by myself, not the same.

Get spoiler tags sorted. End of discussion.


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## Anakwanar

> Get spoiler tags sorted. End of discussion.


Done. Why do you british, so easy to rage?



> No I just despise spoilers, which are still apparent in your above post


:read: You do know what is the name of this thread: 'The Unremembered Empire, Spoilers abound'


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## Angel of Blood

Anakwanar said:


> Done. Why do you british, so easy to rage?



We didn't take over a third of the world by being nice. Which can also be cited as reason why we now don't own a third of the world.



Anakwanar said:


> :read: You do know what is the name of this thread: 'The Unremembered Empire, Spoilers abound'


Yes, _I made it_, spoilers about _The Unremembered Empire_, I'm gonna go right ahead and give you a facepalm for that and then despite being an atheist, get down on my knees and pray to Odin that you weren't possibly being serious.


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## Lord of the Night

Anakwanar. Spoiler tag any further "Inside info" that you get. We do not want to be perusing the threads and see a massive spoiler in plain sight. Anything that is future in the Horus Heresy that you know, and I don't think you do and what you put about Omegon and Alpharius is a guess on your part, you put in a spoiler tag.


LotN


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## Khyzer

I generally tend to just straight skip any post that is made by Anakwanar, because of generally every reason posted by Angel of Blood lol. But I was trying to remember any of the spoilers he claimed to know months ago and was wondering if any of them even turned out to be true? I seem to remember when he first started posting it was spoilers about Vulkan maybe? I cant remember it was long ago and like I said, I usually just write off the stuff he spews out on the forums as complete bullshit. You'd think a person might take a hint to just, I don't know... go away? when after every post you make you get flamed by the whole community lol.


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## Anakwanar

> you put in a spoiler tag.


Already done - no spoilers without spoilers tag in the future - i promise

To Khyzer
If you don't want to know - fine


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## bobss

Probably the most carefree guy in the world concerning spoilers, but I can't say I like half-a-decade-in-the-pipleline possibilities blurted out.

If anything a ''news and rumours'' sticky thread would be handy. I mean some of the stickies are years out of date.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> What aren't your getting? Don't just smash spoilers out because you can, it's all you seem to do here, jump into threads and yell out your spoilers without any real regard over whether people want to know them or not. If _you_ remember our conversation before, you'll remember how I told you how it looks, others agreed. You still come across with this superior sort of attitude, because you get to these events, say you talk to all these authors, you just can't seem to resist yelling out to everyone how you know what's going to happen, how you own something before others. So many of your posts essentially boil down to 'Hint Hint! I know!' or to that effect.


I second this.

You're not making yourself any friends here Anakwanar. You spouting out 'inside info' about Alpharius and Omegon has nothing to do with this thread and wasn't even relevant to any previous posts.

You think you have loads of inside info, that's great. But we don't care. So please stop posting it all over random threads. You've been confronted about this several times now, so please stop it.


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## Kalamoj

I finished the book a couple minutes ago, and it was a bit of a letdown.
The start was good, but Curze's rampaging was really boring. 
The worst part was Vulkan. Why they made him an insane idiot? Did he even died at the end? I hope not, he was one of the most interesting primarch for me - he has a human side too, not just a killer like most of his brothers.


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## Roninman

Finished this yesterday and after really promising start was eventually let down. I think they should have dished Curze, Vulcan and perpetuals and concentrated on something else.

I think to novel went downhill immediately after Curze made planetfall. There was so much promise almost first half of this book and rest of story was a letdown. Too much John already, he is almost on everyother book and while Narek is quite cool, will he suddenly start appearing everywhere in future books.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

There seems to be some consensus forming that the first third or so was very promising but that the novel was let down by the extensive inclusion of Curze, Vulkan etc and their bizarre plot-line.


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## Phoebus

That's definitely how I felt, CotE...


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## Alvarius

So, Curze takes two hits in the face from Vulkans hammer, what happens? Nothing. Curze gets hit by Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Guillimans sword, Lions sword, Space Wolves etc. what happens? Some blood, but nothing more. 

Guilliman, one if the best close combatants of all the brothers, what has he done? Well, nothing actually. He just takes hits, one after another. Kor Pheron, Lorgar, Angron, Cruze... When will we truly see the power of RB? Teen marines almost takes him down!? Come on Dan Abnett! Please reply! Fulgrim takes I friggin hammer straight in the face! Pertruabo takes on 20 imperial fists elites without problems. Is Guilliman becoming The Horus Heresys punching bag? And please, I know that The Horus Heresy is all about war, but please give the good guys a break. Some friggin success... 

The Lion and Guilliman fighting Cruze. Cruze wouldn't be able to make a hit. Because RG and the Lion are master swordsmen, they know the art of fighting two by two, three by three etc.

I enjoyed large parts of the book. But Guilliman needs a friggin break!!!


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## piemelke

Just finished the book, and found it also rather weak, 
I agree with Alvarius, the loyalists really are punching bags whilst curze and confraters are on a totally different level. Anyhow it seemed at the end curze is still on Macrage, nice opportunity for Sanguinus to show his wrath.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Alvarius said:


> So, Curze takes two hits in the face from Vulkans hammer, what happens? Nothing. Curze gets hit by Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Guillimans sword, Lions sword, Space Wolves etc. what happens? Some blood, but nothing more.
> 
> Guilliman, one if the best close combatants of all the brothers, what has he done? Well, nothing actually. He just takes hits, one after another. Kor Pheron, Lorgar, Angron, Cruze... When will we truly see the power of RB? Teen marines almost takes him down!? Come on Dan Abnett! Please reply! Fulgrim takes I friggin hammer straight in the face! Pertruabo takes on 20 imperial fists elites without problems. Is Guilliman becoming The Horus Heresys punching bag? And please, I know that The Horus Heresy is all about war, but please give the good guys a break. Some friggin success...
> 
> The Lion and Guilliman fighting Cruze. Cruze wouldn't be able to make a hit. Because RG and the Lion are master swordsmen, they know the art of fighting two by two, three by three etc.
> 
> I enjoyed large parts of the book. But Guilliman needs a friggin break!!!


I have no sympathy with this viewpoint. To quote myself from earlier in this thread:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And this is one of the main reasons why there will always be criticisms of the Heresy novels, because everyone has different perspectives on what the limits of a Primarch's capabilities should be.
> 
> Personally, I think Lorgar standing up to a titan via psychic means was entirely plausible (as I think every single Primarch portrayal throughout the entire series has been plausible). But then, it doesn't really matter how I justify it or what I think because inevitably people will disagree based on their own interpretations of a Primarch's capabilities, and that's absolutely fine. The only solution is that people accept this variety of opinion among both the fan base and the authors and the inconstant portrayals of the Primarchs between novels.


Aside from that, I am interested to see how Curze gets off Macragge and rejoins his Legion and what happens to make Sanguinius abandon Imperium Secundus and make for Terra without Guilliman and The Lion. The Vulkan plot-line I couldn't care less about.


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## Chompy Bits

I finished this novel a while back, and I am on the fence about it. From a technical point, it is well written. And I found the fleshing out of the Imperium Secundus arc quite interesting. I also liked the development in Guilliman's character. Guilliman has gone from probably one of the most hated primarchs before the HH series, to one of the most well liked (at least to me).

What I didn't like, as others have mentioned, was the stupid _Vulkan Lives_ plot being brought into this novel. All traces of that story arc should be burned, the ashes collected and then dumped into the deepest ocean. And I felt ripped off to have Sanguinius on the cover, assume he plays a big part in the novel, only to have him pop up at the end in like the last 20 pages or so.

As to primarch portrayals, I personally didn't find Curze overpowered, but the others _underpowered_. We have Angron getting thousands of tons of rocks dumped on him only to piss him off, Rogal Dorn moving so fast a marine could barely register it, Lorgar (in minutes at the most) mostly recovering from pretty much being disemblowled by Corax, Corax himself having skin literally impervious to hard rounds, Fulgrim taking punches that would crush a terminator's skull... to name just a few examples. But Guilliman has his flesh pierced by shrapnel from rounds that didn't even hit him directly, and then takes several days to recover from his injuries. Hell, Krueger, a regular marine, sustained very similar injuries to Guilliman in _Angel Exterminatus_ (he also got hit by mutliple bolter rounds) and walked away from that battle. And the bit about him being possibly caught off guard by the Space Wolf strike the Lion blocked was just ridiculous to me. All the other showings of the primarchs so far have had their speed and reaction times so far above that of a regular marine, that the idea of a single Space Wolf catching a primarch off guard with a blow he in fact knows is coming is preposterous to me.

And it isn't just a situation of different authors with different interpretations, because Curze is a total beast who sustains almost no damage despite all the fighting he does in the novel, even when Vulkan finally has a proper go at him in the end. I personally hope Sanguinius gets a hold of Curze when they continue this plot, and lays a serious smack down on his ass, one that sees Curze fleeing Ultramar in fear for a change.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

But what about the name on the stasis casket that Vulkan is in? 'The Unbound Flame'? That's the name of one of the relics that the Salamanders believe they have to find, before Vulkan judges them worthy and returns. That's an interesting piece of info.
However, earlier fluff talks about how Vulkan opposed the Codex, post-Heresy, so how will this be affected? I'm not criticising here, just interested and curious! There's also the tiny bit where one of the Salamanders who forms the mourning retinue for Vulkan, says that they will take him to Nocturne to bury him there. That would be cool if The Unbound Flame was actually to be found on Nocturne and it was Vulkan.
The rest of the novel I'm a bit undecided about. I sort of liked the Curze thing, though it dragged on somewhat. But these novels are almost more than the story they tell, also being used to salt references to things we know about from 40k and what their origins/original purposes were. This book shows the shaky beginnings of ImpSec, but later ones will tell us what we want to know of how it fares, what it aceives and how it dies. What stops Guilliman and The Lion from keeping their word to Sanguinius? What is Curze going to do now, cos none of us can go through all of that again!
As for the Perpetual and the Cabal, well there was no proof that they were ever what they said they were. Why can't this group be small and taking the course it has through less pure motives than it has espoused? Why not factionalised? The Human Perpetuals we have met have seen a lot, but none of them, beyond the Emperor, are 'Senior Management' so to speak. Are Perpetuals a purely Human occurrence? There's a whole story to be told here, that sounds like it's going to change a lot of what we know about them!

GFP


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## Phoebus

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aside from that, I am interested to see how Curze gets off Macragge and rejoins his Legion and what happens to make Sanguinius abandon Imperium Secundus and make for Terra without Guilliman and The Lion. The Vulkan plot-line I couldn't care less about.


One of the theories (pretty solid, in my opinion) that was presented in The First Expedition forum deals with "Prince of Crows": one of the fleet elements Sevatar re-establishes contact with following their crushing defeat by the Dark Angels is in... _Sotha._


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## Justindkates

I liked the book, not as much as I had waiting on this one for months. The Vulkan thing is getting old, the Cabal I could do with out. 

I am interested in how the story will progress to get the Blood Angels to Terra and the Ultramarines and Dark Angels missing the siege. 

And I'm tempted to custom build a Narek model, he has been a welcome character in both books.


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