# The Beast Arises schedule blog



## Brother Lucian

http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises.html

Surely the first Black Crusade already have happened? 
And the 5th book looks exciting, the eldar is definitely up to no good with the shattered imperial webway. Should be a blast to read as Guy Haley did such a superb work on the pointyears with Valedor and the Last Days of Ector


----------



## Lord of the Night

Hm, twelve books? Now that is interesting.


LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

1500 years after the Heresy...hasn't the 1st BC already happened?


----------



## Tawa

MontytheMighty said:


> 1500 years after the Heresy...hasn't the 1st BC already happened?


----------



## Sevatar

I'm cautiously hyped for this one. Twelve actual books plus a setting with potential.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Seems odd that the high lords would be busy politicking and infighting when not that long ago (by 40K standards), the Traitor Legions returned to visit death and destruction upon the Imperial, shattering the illusion of safety

1st BC is dated around M31.780 IIRC


----------



## Brother Lucian

If anything, the traitor legions probably took advantage of the chaos post the Beast for their first black crusade.


----------



## Iraqiel

Hey, this looks alright! I love the Ork v Guard fluff, and most of the books that concern those two factions are great. Hopefully this will give us a bit more to go with as well!


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> If anything, the traitor legions probably took advantage of the chaos post the Beast for their first black crusade.


Would make sense.

...but it has always been mentioned that between Heresy and 1st BC...the Imperium prospered in a post-Heresy golden age


----------



## Duke_Leto

Sorry to be _THAT GUY_ but...

781.M31 = Abaddon's 1st Black Crusade. On Uralan, the Despoiler secures the daemon weapon Drach'nyen. The First Battle of Cadia.

544.M32 = An Ork Warboss known only as the Beast forms an enormous army of Orks that rampages across the Imperium. He is eventually stopped at great cost to the Adeptus Astartes.

546.M32 = The Beheading: Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum Drakan Vangorich has the High Lords of Terra murdered. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign.

552.M32 = The space hulk Da Iron Worm carries marauding orks across the Uhulis Sector. They destroy Battlegroup Azezel, the Fortress Worlds Armstrong and Velgagrad, and the Forge World Temaxia, leaving the Ul-Seraph Cluster defenceless. A warp storm blasts Da Iron Worm off course and into the Empyrean. Scout vessels determine that its course took it into the Dark Marches and is never heard from again.

597.M32 = 2nd Black Crusade, a failed attack on the defences of Cadia.

So there is 763 years between the 1st Black Crusade and The Beast. But lots of interesting stuff going on around the same time as The Beast!


----------



## MontytheMighty

Right...i don't think 763 years is enough for the IoM to lull into complacence


----------



## Lord of the Night

It might actually be enough. Recall in The Talon of Horus when Khayon notes that it did not take very long for the IoM to declare that the Traitor Legions were dead and enter into a "Golden Age". He noted that they became complacent and arrogant in that time, and it was less than 763 years if I recall correctly.

LotN


----------



## Duke_Leto

MontytheMighty said:


> Right...i don't think 763 years is enough for the IoM to lull into complacence


Hmmm well if you take 763 years away from 2015 you get to 1252AD. I would say the modern world is pretty complacent about what happened during the medieval era? That was roughly around the time Europe was under the threat from Genghis Khan and the Mongols who were considered to be sent from hell. Not sure modern Europe is that worried about Mongolia these days!!!


----------



## MontytheMighty

Duke_Leto said:


> Hmmm well if you take 763 years away from 2015 you get to 1252AD. I would say the modern world is pretty complacent about what happened during the medieval era? That was roughly around the time Europe was under the threat from Genghis Khan and the Mongols who were considered to be sent from hell. Not sure modern Europe is that worried about Mongolia these days!!!


The Imperium and the real-life modern world don't operate on the same level of time IMO (e.g. the Great Crusade lasted for 200+ years and likely would have continued for another century or so...WW2 lasted for roughly 5). After the Heresy, the Imperium lives on for another 10,000 years (a ridiculous span of time by "real history" standards) and is likely to continue for a good while longer)

Furthermore, High Lords and lesser Imperial leaders generally take rejuvenat treatment to prolong youth and lifespan for a few extra centuries (Imperial leaders can live almost as long as Astartes). Therefore, I find it odd that after only 7 centuries, the Imperium has lapsed into complacency *again* after having been punished by the 1st Black Crusade


----------



## venomlust

How much damage do the Black Crusades really inflict on the Imperium? Considering 12 or 13 have been defeated, makes me doubt old Abaddon's efficacy.

*edit*

After reading about them, I guess he's accomplished the goals of many of the crusades.


----------



## Duke_Leto

MontytheMighty said:


> The Imperium and the real-life modern world don't operate on the same level of time IMO (e.g. the Great Crusade lasted for 200+ years and likely would have continued for another century or so...WW2 lasted for roughly 5). After the Heresy, the Imperium lives on for another 10,000 years (a ridiculous span of time by "real history" standards) and is likely to continue for a good while longer)
> 
> Furthermore, High Lords and lesser Imperial leaders generally take rejuvenat treatment to prolong youth and lifespan for a few extra centuries (Imperial leaders can live almost as long as Astartes). Therefore, I find it odd that after only 7 centuries, the Imperium has lapsed into complacency *again* after having been punished by the 1st Black Crusade


Those are good points I had not really considered. If you add in warp travel time dilation also then the whole thing gets even more screwy. Not disagreeing with you but just for fun and to continue the debate...

Even if you change this by a factor or 3 (to use real history vs IoM history taking account of your points above) then you still end up around 1761 AD. So not far off the American Revolution. Not sure the ramifications of that event are really being felt in the 21st century or particularly bother the Brits?

In terms of the "history" of the 40k universe and IoM then it would make more sense if the 1st Black Crusade came after The Beast... Then the IOM would have had a millennia or so to get complacent. Clearly not the case though in the fluff.


----------



## Mellow_

I've pre-ordered the first 5 eBooks for this. 

The thing I like the most is that there's a definite release date and its planned over a year.

If they had done that with the HH even if it was over 3-5 years I feel everyone would have been much more enthusiastic about it.


----------



## Mellow_

Is the "Beast" in this series meant to be a worse or lesser Ork compared to the one that Horus and The Emperor fought in The Wolf of Ash and Fire?


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Mech-Lord of Gorro slain in Wolf of Ash and Fire, was just a lesser warlord serving Ork Overlord Urrlak Urruk of Ullanorhttp://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Urrlak_Urruk?veaction=edit&redlink=1


----------



## Brother Lucian

http://www.blacklibrary.com/newsfeed#5628ffe89ccde60b001ca723

Worth looking at.


----------



## Mellow_

Brother Lucian said:


> The Mech-Lord of Gorro slain in Wolf of Ash and Fire, was just a lesser warlord serving Ork Overlord Urrlak Urruk of Ullanorhttp://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Urrlak_Urruk?veaction=edit&redlink=1


OK, so is The Beast a lesser or greater threat than Ork Overlord Urrlak Urrak? Or is that unknown?


----------



## Brother Lucian

Mellow_ said:


> OK, so is The Beast a lesser or greater threat than Ork Overlord Urrlak Urrak? Or is that unknown?


Considering the horde of the Beast's nearly managed to topple the imperium, id say a much greater threat.

Ghazkull Thraka is now said to possess an ork horde eclipsing that of the Beast's.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Mellow_ said:


> OK, so is The Beast a lesser or greater threat than Ork Overlord Urrlak Urrak? Or is that unknown?


It took a good portion of the Luna Wolves and the Emperor to stop Urlakk Urg. It took the Adeptus Astartes, *all of them*, to stop The Beast. And many, i.e multiple Chapters, did not come back.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Mind you, it was the legions of old that dealt with Ullanor, not post-scouring chapters.


----------



## Mellow_

All the smaller Chapters would still equate to more than a single Legion. 

Thanks for the answers!


----------



## MontytheMighty

I think Ork-for-Ork, the Orks on Gorro were the largest and most powerful ever...

However, the sheer numbers led by the Beast may have more than made up for the individual power of the Gorro Orks


----------



## Mellow_

I must say, regardless of the overall quality of story. I'll be getting the whole 12 book series. It will be good to read something that has a definite end, especially over a period of time and events I know relatively nothing about.


----------



## Death Nikorps

Hi everyone, here the next 2 books in the series:

*May 2016*

The Beast Arises Tome 6 - Echoes of the Long War by David Guymer 

*June 2016*

The Beast Arises Tome 7 - The Hunt for Vulkan by David Annandale


----------



## Brother Lucian

Interesting, looks like the traitors is taking advantage by this point, and we see the forgefather going on the quest for the hidden relics. Though I wonder if the beast is downed by book 5 as it implies things came to a head at terra there.


----------



## Death Nikorps

One more:

*July*

The Beast Arises Tome 8 - _The Beast Must Die_ by Gav Thorpe


----------



## MontytheMighty

By Gav Thorpe...won't be reading that


----------



## Brother Lucian

You do realize the books have different authors?


----------



## Tawa

MontytheMighty said:


> By Gav Thorpe...



There'll be Dark Angels in it then.....


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> You do realize the books have different authors?


Yeah...won't be reading the ones by Thorpe. His writing is bad


----------



## Brother Lucian

Black Library have just announced a subscription deal for the Beast Arises:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-bea...il&utm_term=0_781f7c7929-6074d186b1-110887141

Effectivey buying the whole series of 12 books for the price of 9.

Offer only valid until 27th nov as a preorder bonus. Im actually tempted.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Some of these 12 books will be by Thorpe...or maybe even Kyme, so subtracting the price of those entries is only fair


----------



## Brother Lucian

Nothing wrong with Gav Thorpe imho, he wrote the quite excellent Legacy of Caliban series, which ended with the smashing The Unforgiven.


----------



## Sevatar

It's a good deal if you were planning on buying the series no matter the quality. 

But no physical option? Would probably be too expensive for them.


----------



## Chaosveteran

Is this series purely ebook or will there be hard copies as well?


----------



## jasonpittman

Brother Lucian said:


> Nothing wrong with Gav Thorpe imho, he wrote the quite excellent Legacy of Caliban series, which ended with the smashing The Unforgiven.


Couldn't agree more I loved The Legacy of Caliban series


----------



## evanswolves

Sevatar said:


> It's a good deal if you were planning on buying the series no matter the quality.
> 
> But no physical option? Would probably be too expensive for them.


May as well preorder from whsmith £9.09 each


----------



## Brother Lucian

Hrm, ended biting and bought the ebook subscription. Only a few day left for the offer, and I intended to get all of them anyways. Plus getting the quite encouraging response from Black Library sealed the deal.


Hi there,

thanks for your email. Each book is a full size Novel rather than a short story. As for the page count, this varies from book to book and device to device depending on your screen size. I can say they are full books though.


----------



## Brother Lucian

I am Slaughter is available for download. 

Its a full sized book.


----------



## HamsterExAstris

Brother Lucian said:


> I am Slaughter is available for download.
> 
> Its a full sized book.


I disagree. It's about 47K words, or 45% the size of _Horus Rising_.

It's _technically_ a novel (the definition is anything over 40K words), but definitely a short one. Similar to _The Honoured_, _The Unburdened_, and _Tallarn: Ironclad_.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Got around to finish I am Slaughter. Quite a blast of a read and gives a very good vibe of things to come. You can certainly see the origin of the event known as 'The Beheading' to come.


----------



## Sevatar

Bummed out that it's only 238 pages. Will wait and see how the quality of the next few books is before I decide on what edition to purchase for this series.


----------



## Valrak

Brother Lucian said:


> Got around to finish I am Slaughter. Quite a blast of a read and gives a very good vibe of things to come. You can certainly see the origin of the event known as 'The Beheading' to come.



What is this 'Beheading'?


----------



## Brother Lucian

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Beheading,_The


----------



## Lord of the Night

Valrak said:


> What is this 'Beheading'?


Only one of the most awesome things to ever happen in 40k. It ends with 400 Adeptus Astartes from the Imperial Fists, Sable Swords and Halo Brethren vs 100 Eversor Assassins, there was only one survivor. If this actually makes it into the series I might just shed a single perfect man tear of joy.

I plan on waiting for the paperbacks, i'm not paying 12.99 for a novel that isn't over 300 pages.


LotN


----------



## HamsterExAstris

Lord of the Night said:


> I plan on waiting for the paperbacks, i'm not paying 12.99 for a novel that isn't over 300 pages.


Is it going to be coming to paperback? I thought Black Library was only doing that for the Horus Heresy books anymore.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord of the Night said:


> Only one of the most awesome things to ever happen in 40k. It ends with 400 Adeptus Astartes from the Imperial Fists, Sable Swords and Halo Brethren vs 100 Eversor Assassins, there was only one survivor. If this actually makes it into the series I might just shed a single perfect man tear of joy.
> 
> I plan on waiting for the paperbacks, i'm not paying 12.99 for a novel that isn't over 300 pages.
> 
> 
> LotN


Drakan Vangorich features prominently in I am Slaughter and we get to see him closely, as he navigates the byzantine politics of Terra. I for one can quite see why he ended going the above mentioned route in the future.


----------



## Hachiko

Don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but it looks like Guy Haley will be penning the final installment of the series.

https://civilianreader.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/interview-with-guy-haley/


----------



## Brother Lucian

http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises/predator-prey/predator-prey-ebook.html

The Beast Arises book2, Predator and Prey is available. But shame on Black Library, they havent updated the download for subscribers yet >.<


----------



## Brother Lucian

Update: Predator and Prey have been added to the subscriber bundle at last.


Edit: Finished Predator and Prey, I found it a quite engaging read and a worthy follow up to the first book. The schemes certainly are boiling now!

Minor spoiler:


A hitherto unknown second founding Imperial Fists successor has been revealed. The Fists Exemplar. I have a sneaking suspicion that they will be the ones to repopulate their decimated parent chapter.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Fenris said:


> - BIG SPOILER for Predator, Prey.
> Imperial Fists survivors of Ardamantua: 4
> 
> Of those four, three are killed by the AdMec "for science".
> 
> Imperial Fists survivors of Ardamantua then: 1
> 
> Yes, one. Out of the full chapter. BL has outdone itself in the long lasting tradition of KILL ALL THE FISTS.


...

What. The. F**k...

That is the DUMBEST THING ever written in 40k. The Khornate Grey Knights, Blood Angel/Necron team-up and Kaldor Draigo were all better written then that (when HE WHO CANNOT BE NAMED wrote them) even before LJ Goulding got to the last two and made them awesome. 




The Imperial Fists were wiped out leaving only one guy and they weren't disbanded. The Crimson Fists were wiped out to less than one-hundred men and they were very nearly disbanded, the Astral Knights had roughly a hundred to a hundred-and-fifty men and they were disbanded after the World Engine. The Celestial Lions had only 96 marines left after Mannheim, and even less after hunting down Warboss Thogfag with Grimaldus and the Armies of Helsreach, and only Black Templars intervention kept their alive.

Yet somehow the Fists survived having only ONE guy live. One guy to carry on all the traditions, knowledge, wargear and recruitment of the Imperial Fists Chapter...



Absolute BS.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Eh, the imperial fists are the proud remnants of the imperial fists legion, the protectors of terra and revered in the imperium. It would be horribly bad press, doubly so with the beast having his funsies and absolutely terrible for morale. Should it get out that a fist founding chapter as revered as the fists was gone. So I hold on that the mauled, but still functioning fists exemplars will get very firmly told to retake the livery of their parent legion, and letting Slaughter be their new chapter master. Its also related to this event that the fists lost some organs, like the betchers gland and sus-an membrane.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Eh, the imperial fists are the proud remnants of the imperial fists legion, the protectors of terra and revered in the imperium. It would be horribly bad press, doubly so with the beast having his funsies and absolutely terrible for morale. Should it get out that a fist founding chapter as revered as the fists was gone. So I hold on that the mauled, but still functioning fists exemplars will get very firmly told to retake the livery of their parent legion, and letting Slaughter be their new chapter master. Its also likely related to this event that the fists lost some organs, like the betchers gland and sus-an membrane.


Hmm




_*If*_ that is what is going to happen, then it redeems the moment for me. The fact that the real Imperial Fists died millennia before 40k would be a hell of a twist, and it would pose a real question to players and fans of the Chapter. Does knowing that your favourite Chapter isn't actually the real Chapter that was made after the Heresy change your feelings towards it, or are the Imperial Fists of 40k the real Fists no matter their origin?



I think i'll be picking up the first two Beast novels along with Flesh Tearers this weekend. I know a store that sells BL books at 3 for 2, so my plan was to buy the Beast series in increments of three and end up paying for nine books and getting three for free. I might now just go for getting them two at a time and another novel that I want for free, if there is one.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Thought it pretty obvious that the Fists Exemplar are being setup as the replacements for the decimated imperial fists, since their chapter did -not- get wiped out, despite overwhelming attack by the hordes of the beast. Saved by the black templars. And with them not being known in 40k as a successor, I think theyve been deliberately scrubbed out to hide the fact that they refilled their parent chapter. Which leaves one wondering if this also have happened for other first founding chapters. The Blood Angels managed to secure a lot of fresh blood from their successors after their civil war for example. Though not at the cost of those chapters. Having only 1000 marines is not much of a buffer against disaster, and the BAs certainly has come close to being wiped out on multiple ocassions.


----------



## Brother Lucian

I suddenly discovered something that explains the reconstitution of the Imperial fists. I was dead on!


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page-8#entry4272663

Edit: Im hearing a future cover depicts Slaughter as a deathwatch marine, so he may be the founder of the Deathwatch and their habit of taking in estranged marines. Most likely feeling he couldn't remain in a chapter that wasn't true fists anymore.


----------



## Lord of Ruin

I read Predator Prey as soon as it was available and I must say that it was really well written, I'm liking the shorter length of these novels as they seem to be so content rich and easier to pick up and read than say a 500 page novel. Don't get me wrong I love 500 page novels but if this keeps up with such rich story telling month after month then BL are on to a winner of a series!

I can't wait for the next one 'The Emperor Expects' by Gav Thorpe to see how things progress on both fronts!


----------



## Paceyjg

Lord of Ruin said:


> I read Predator Prey as soon as it was available and I must say that it was really well written, I'm liking the shorter length of these novels as they seem to be so content rich and easier to pick up and read than say a 500 page novel. Don't get me wrong I love 500 page novels but if this keeps up with such rich story telling month after month then BL are on to a winner of a series!
> 
> I can't wait for the next one 'The Emperor Expects' by Gav Thorpe to see how things progress on both fronts!


Have to agree, I just hope the different writers can maintain the feel of each character, the first two books have done just that.


----------



## Vitarus

Let me know if any decent psykers show up, eh? lol


----------



## Brother Lucian

Well the eldar is going to stage an assault on the imperial palace at one time, reputeldly Eldrad Ulthran is among their numbers, the greatest eldar psyker.


----------



## Vitarus

I'll keep an eye out. Thanks.


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Emperor Expects is added to the download bundle for subscribers. Not up for purchase yet.

Just added it to my kindle.


Edit: Interesting stuffs going on..
The Last Wall protocol


Koorland invokes a legacy of their primarch. Rogal Dorn instituted a secret call to the Imperial Fists and their successors. That incase Terra was threatened or falling, then the old Legion would reunite as The Last Wall, and their meeting place is the Phall system.

Little wonder that Rogal Dorn eventually agreed to allow the breaking of the Imperial Fists legion, which he initially was against. With this scheme as his backup plan.




Edit:
Finished it.


This book felt more like a slow burner compared to the rapid pace of Predator and Prey. But its continuing the major plotlines and going more in depth with the Navy as the focus of this book. All while the politicizing goes into a frothing frenzy in the Imperial Palace, which was a treat to read. And ending on a massive cliff hanger, a collosal Ork attack Moon materializing above Terra.


----------



## evanswolves

Up for order now


----------



## Stephen74

Oh why why why am I such an idiot :angry:

I decided to buy the Beast Arsises series. For once hardback books were not stupidly over priced and it looked like the series would be good.... however

I didnt look at the inside cover and see that Gav Thorpe has written book 3.

How in the name of Zues's Butthole am I supposed to read a book by this guy and not have a brain hemorrhage. You do all know that this is how Orks were created right? All this Waaaaaaargh stuff is the universes attempt to rid itself of works by Gav Thorpe.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Stephen74 said:


> Oh why why why am I such an idiot :angry:
> 
> I decided to buy the Beast Arsises series. For once hardback books were not stupidly over priced and it looked like the series would be good.... however
> 
> I didnt look at the inside cover and see that Gav Thorpe has written book 3.
> 
> How in the name of Zues's Butthole am I supposed to read a book by this guy and not have a brain hemorrhage. You do all know that this is how Orks were created right? All this Waaaaaaargh stuff is the universes attempt to rid itself of works by Gav Thorpe.


Take a breather, its not that bad. Mostly a filler book tho, but amping up the political intrigue to eleven. I expect things to pick up again from book 4.


----------



## Stephen74

Paceyjg said:


> Have to agree, I just hope the different writers can maintain the feel of each character, the first two books have done just that.


Good luck on that one. I fully expect to see lines like

And the sun came up. And it was Big. And round. And Orange. And made me feel all warm. 

Because thats the quality of writting you get from Gav Thorpe.


----------



## Stephen74

Brother Lucian said:


> Take a breather, its not that bad. Mostly a filler book tho, but amping up the political intrigue to eleven. I expect things to pick up again from book 4.


I can't. I'm in full GavRage mode. It's like going to the dentist for root canal work, it takes a certain amount of mental pre preperation.


----------



## Brobaddon

Done with I am slaughter and holy fuck, Beast and his Waagh makes Abbadon and his crusades look like sunday afternoon picnic, jesus christ. Like, whoever doubts in Orks just show him this book and they'll never say anything against them ever. Super excited to read the second book.

Fuck me, an Ork Warboss of hablock size. You can't get more badass than that.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brobaddon said:


> Done with I am slaughter and holy fuck, Beast and his Waagh makes Abbadon and his crusades look like sunday afternoon picnic, jesus christ. Like, whoever doubts in Orks just show him this book and they'll never say anything against them ever. Super excited to read the second book.
> 
> Fuck me, an Ork Warboss of hablock size. You can't get more badass than that.


Eh...so an Ork Warboss the size of a Warhound Titan?


----------



## Brobaddon

Yes, around that size I guess. Makes Ghaz seem like a snotling.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Begets the question how they managed to kill the Beast, with no primarchs around. Any good ideas?


----------



## Brobaddon

No idea but considering he's probably wearing titan sized heavy armour, and a mostly likely has a force field as additional protection too, I'd expect nothing less than a sqadron of super-heavy tanks or another titan. 

I want to see Beast smash through Astartes ranks by himself as if they were guardsmen. This fucker could prolly break a Bloodthirster in two as if he were nothing. Such hype. :good:


----------



## Brother Lucian

The description of The Beast:

There was little sense of scale, but Maskar appeared to be looking into the eyes of the most immense ork warboss. The creature was so mature, so vast and bloated, its features were distorted. Broken tusks like tree trunks jutted from the cliff edge of its lower jaw. It was staring right out of the screen with tiny, gleaming yellow eyes, its jaw moving. ‘That bastard thing is aboard the moon,’ Heth said. ‘It’s their leader. I think he’s the size of a damn hab-block, Maskar. Saints of Terra, there hasn’t been an ork boss that massive since Ullanor. I mean, they just don’t develop to that size any more. Look, look. In the foreground? Those are greenskin warriors. They look like children.’


I say 'Uh oh' for the Imperium! It took Horus at his prime to strike down the overlord of Ullanor.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> there hasn’t been an ork boss that massive since Ullanor.


Gorro was Ullanor...or am I confused?


----------



## Brother Lucian

MontytheMighty said:


> Gorro was Ullanor...or am I confused?


The mech lord of the rust world Gorro was one of the lesser lieutenants of Overlord Urrlak Urruk on Ullanor.

I speculate that the tight battlle with the mech lord of Gorro, was a strong reason for the Emperor to leave the Great Crusade to Horus. For the simple reason, it was difficult for him to act at his full might, the strain of projecting the astronomican was diminishing his ability. At this point in time, the Emperor was single handedly projecting his psychic might to Terra to project the astronomican, without any psyker sacrifices needed.


----------



## Brobaddon

Yeah it was a bit surprising to see Emperor get so easily manhandled by an Ork, even if it's an immensly large and powerful warboss, since could have blasted his soul any time before even getting grabbed. 

I always felt that Emperor allowed some of these instances to happen so Horus can " rescue " him, and maybe even further enhance their father-son bond? I don't know, anything is possible with Emperor.


----------



## Brobaddon

Really digging Vangorich's character so far. Quite an intriguing and capable individual, as expected of the grand master of assassins. But also quite devoted to Imperium, compared to certain individuals.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> The mech lord of the rust world Gorro was one of the lesser lieutenants of Overlord Urrlak Urruk on Ullanor.


So the ranking probabaly looks like this?

1. Urrlak Urruk/The Beast (tie)
2. Mech Lord of Gorro who chokes the Big E


----------



## Brother Lucian

Personally id rank the Beast in top. He managed to gather a galaxy bursting ork waagh. None of the other ork warlords have managed that feat.

If Ghazhkull keep rolling in success, I suspect he might hit a big growth spurt soon.


----------



## Brobaddon

Actually I don't see how Ghaz's Waagh is said to be bigger than Beasts' since I think Ork's armagedons' forces were said to number in 3-4 milions, which sounds really small compared to how many Orks Beast unleashed on hundreds of planets and what not, the book really makes you think like Beasts' Orks number in hundreds of bilions literally. 

Then there's the fact Beast is far far far bigger than Ghaz, although we don't know who's the better leader since Beast hasn't made an appearance yet, in actual combat that is. 

By the way, I was thinking, who do you think will kill Vangorich? The older fluff mentions him being killed by single surviving astartes, so I'm guessing " Slaughter " ? I doubt it's going to be some random astartes. 

Also, any ideas on which temple Wire/Beast Krule belonged to? It doesn't seem like he was a part of the major ones, so maybe some unknown minor one?


----------



## Brother Lucian

Yep, so far I think the Beast -seriously- outclasses Ghaz. So far the 2 major astartes that have been shown is Koorland 'Slaughter' and Maximus Thane, could be either. But id lean to Slaughter, given the name play and being the possible founder of the Deathwatch. Theres an image of him in deathwatch armor.

I think Krule is special, since he is the right hand man of Vangorich, the best of the best to do the Grand master's dirtiest work. Id guess Eversor, but he is a lot more lucid than those beasts.


Edit: Oh, I misread what you said, i thought you meant the kill on the beast.


----------



## Brobaddon

I'll be dissapointed if the Beast ( the ork beast ) doesn't mop up floor with at least a 2-3 squads of astartes, or destroys a super heavy tank or so. 

And yeah Wire is a real deal, I wouldn't be surprised if he takes out an Astartes when the combined assault against Eversors happens.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I was always under the impression that the Ork lord who choked the Emp was the biggest ever...so this is kinda weird


----------



## Brobaddon

MontytheMighty said:


> I was always under the impression that the Ork lord who choked the Emp was the biggest ever...so this is kinda weird


That Ork is a baby compared to the Beast. 


On another note, ho boy shit is going down in book 4. So the Ork Moon reached Terra herself. Im a bit confused as to how they avoided all of the opposition from the Imperial fleet. I guess they used that warp-tunelling again? 

In any case, Im hyped as fuck for " The Last Wall ". I never heard of the author that wrote the 4th book tho.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Things are heating up, amazon have the names for the final novels. And damn, Guy haley writting the finale?! Awesome beyond words when you notice the title of it!

Echoes of the Long War





The Hunt for Vulkan





The Beast Must Die





Watchers in Death
http://www.amazon.com/Watchers-Death-Beast-Arises-Vol/dp/1784962058/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457374502&sr=8-2&keywords=watchers+in+death

The Last Son of Dorn
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Son-Dorn-Beast-Arises/dp/1784962112/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1457374016&sr=8-13&keywords=the+beast+arises

Shadow of Ullanor
http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Ullanor-Beast-Arises-Sanders/dp/1784962163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457374264&sr=8-1&keywords=shadow+of+ullanor

The Beheading
http://www.amazon.com/Beheading-Beast-Arises-Guy-Haley/dp/178496221X/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1457374016&sr=8-14&keywords=the+beast+arises


Pure genius to end the series on such an explosive note!


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Last Wall have just become available, much earlier than expected. Saturday release usually.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Finished The Last Wall......epic! The intrigue and plotting is reaching a truly fervered pitch. And we get a glimpse into a quite secretive area of Terra. A last ditch effort to half the great menace, and their utterly suprising counter. Who knew orks could be capable of -THAT?!-

I am quite looking forward to book 5, Throneworld to see what happens next.


----------



## evanswolves

Book is now up to order, not shipping for another week though :/


----------



## Brother Lucian

http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises.html

Black Library updated their post for TBA. I am quite stunned by the blurb for book 7. I thought none of them was still present in the Imperum by M32? I recall hearing the last of their kind vanished after 1500 years.

I think everyone expected the first forgefather. But -him?- Which leaves one wondering if his presence eventually spurs on the Pentarcy of Blood.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises.html
> 
> Black Library updated their post for TBA. I am quite stunned by the blurb for book 7. I thought none of them was still present in the Imperum by M32? I recall hearing the last of their kind vanished after 1500 years.
> 
> I think everyone expected the first forgefather. But -him?- Which leaves one wondering if his presence eventually spurs on the Pentarcy of Blood.


Vulkan Lives?


----------



## Mellow_

The Last Wall was another brilliant story. Black Library have done themselves proud with this series so far.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> Vulkan Lives?


I've read that phrase enough times in the Heresy series now to last me several life times. Stop.

But yes, quite surprising to hear he is still kicking in M32. The last one as well. Would be interesting to hear more from him, what it must be like to be the last loyal Primarch left, who hasn't vanished or died.


----------



## Brother Lucian

A severe, FLAMING case of survivors guilt, most likely. *grin*


----------



## Mellow_

I wonder if they would allow him to go and see "old pops sitting on the Throne" or if even he would be denied the audience.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Brother Lucian said:


> A severe, FLAMING case of survivors guilt, most likely. *grin*


Go die in a fir....wait.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Jokes aside, I wonder how much impact Vulkan will have on the endgame fight with the Beast. If the orks takes him out in the failed assault on the ork homeworld. As it lists the imperium is reeling from the death of so many beloved heroes, strongly implying that Vulkan bites it or coniviently disappears. 
Edit: Another implication that Vulkan is a goner, the newly created Deatchwatch wears the black out of mourning.

Prior to learning he still was alive, I was wondering what kind of insane, heroic feat the imperium would have to pull off to defeat the Beast with no demigdod primarchs left to match them. It does kinda take a bit out of the heroism, that be, if Vulkan doesnt get swept from the board before the end.


----------



## Brobaddon

I haven't started to read the last well yet, but goddamn, vulkan shows up????? Wasn't he already suppsoed to be gone by this point?


----------



## MontytheMighty

If the Beast Kills Vulkan...how? Vulkan is Perpetual


----------



## Brother Lucian

Brobaddon said:


> I haven't started to read the last well yet, but goddamn, vulkan shows up????? Wasn't he already suppsoed to be gone by this point?


Book 7 is The Hunt for Vulkan. Appearently vulkan have long been the last primarch in lore. The last of the primarchs vanishing after 1500 years, and its roughly 1500 years after the Horus Heresy now.


----------



## Haskanael

MontytheMighty said:


> If the Beast Kills Vulkan...how? Vulkan is Perpetual


read Unremembered Empire. that should explain that part of the story.


----------



## sadLor

I'm quite interested in seeing another author write Vulkan. We've only really had Nick Kyme take him on. He was in Unremembered Empire but he was wild and insane the entire book so it wasn't like there was much characterization.


----------



## Angel of Blood

sadLor said:


> I'm quite interested in seeing another author write Vulkan. We've only really had Nick Kyme take him on. He was in Unremembered Empire but he was wild and insane the entire book so it wasn't like there was much characterization.


Yup. I am really, really happy to finally see somebody else write Vulkan. I just don't like Kymes writing at all, not liked a single thing he's written, but more than anything I hate the monopoly he seems to have on the Salamanders and Vulkan. Let someone else write, let's get a fresh perspective on the Primarch and the Legion. It's like Swallow had an iron hold on the Blood Angels as well, and Mcneill the Emperor's Children. Whilst I hate Swallows Blood Angels work, I enjoyed Flight of the Eisenstein quite a lot, I just don't like his take on Sanguinius and the Bangles, it's just very flat and uninteresting. Also with Mcneill, I actually like his portrayal of them, I like Fulgrim and some of the shorts, I didn't like Angel Exterminatus that much, but I still think he portrays the Emperors Children and Fulgrim well. But I'd just like to see other authors have a shot.

Abnett reimagined the Space Wolves beautifully imo, but then they let Wraight take control of them as well and he's brilliant as well writing them.


----------



## evanswolves

This got delivered despite site saying not shipping for another week, just a shame iv next to no time to read them for another few weeks thanks to work :/


----------



## piemelke

Angel of Blood said:


> Yup. I am really, really happy to finally see somebody else write Vulkan. I just don't like Kymes writing at all, not liked a single thing he's written, but more than anything I hate the monopoly he seems to have on the Salamanders and Vulkan. Let someone else write, let's get a fresh perspective on the Primarch and the Legion. It's like Swallow had an iron hold on the Blood Angels as well, and Mcneill the Emperor's Children. Whilst I hate Swallows Blood Angels work, I enjoyed Flight of the Eisenstein quite a lot, I just don't like his take on Sanguinius and the Bangles, it's just very flat and uninteresting. Also with Mcneill, I actually like his portrayal of them, I like Fulgrim and some of the shorts, I didn't like Angel Exterminatus that much, but I still think he portrays the Emperors Children and Fulgrim well. But I'd just like to see other authors have a shot.
> 
> Abnett reimagined the Space Wolves beautifully imo, but then they let Wraight take control of them as well and he's brilliant as well writing them.


seconded


----------



## Reaper45

It's going to be hard to say what the writers are going to be allowed to do with Vulkan.

On one hand, it's 40K so the beast killing him is probably going to happen.

However on the flip side Vulkan is one person they may just have this as the thing that makes him disappear leaving it open if he's still alive or not.

It's really hard to say.


----------



## Brobaddon

Not done with the book just yet, but where the f are Custodes? Everyone's talking about using merchant fleets to deliver bilions of fodder and bla bla, but seriously, zero mention of custodes? There's like 10,000 of them on Terra. Or is that later in the book?


----------



## Brother Lucian

I expect to see the custodian guard featuring in Throneworld, book 5, due to the emergence of a new faction in the fight.


----------



## Brobaddon

I imagine you're talking about panzies since i saw the cover of that book. Seriously tho, no mention of custodians in this book?


----------



## Brother Lucian

Correct. My speculation is that the eldar is somehow going for the ruptured imperial webway, which will directly threaten the Emperor.


----------



## piemelke

MontytheMighty said:


> If the Beast Kills Vulkan...how? Vulkan is Perpetual


are you sure he still is, he might only have John his life left ?


----------



## PlayingWithHammers

The Last Wall puzzled me, not only due to lack of any Custodes, and Titan Legios but the general lack of anything else in the Solar System, the most densely populated and inhabited system in the galaxy.

The fleets around Mars? The shipyards from Mars to Jupiters moons? Titan is still in the warp?

The shipyards around the hollowed out fortress that is the Moon? The orbital plates, ring and defences of Terra?

Perhaps Horus scoured the system clean during the Siege but it seems that 1500 years after the Heresy Terra is protected by a single fleet, and a single chapter of Fists in a Solar System empty of all bar Mars. and Mars is missing its multiple defence and explorator fleets and multiple Ark Mechanicus's.


----------



## Valrak

PlayingWithHammers said:


> The Last Wall puzzled me, not only due to lack of any Custodes, and Titan Legios but the general lack of anything else in the Solar System, the most densely populated and inhabited system in the galaxy.
> 
> The fleets around Mars? The shipyards from Mars to Jupiters moons? Titan is still in the warp?
> 
> The shipyards around the hollowed out fortress that is the Moon? The orbital plates, ring and defences of Terra?
> 
> Perhaps Horus scoured the system clean during the Siege but it seems that 1500 years after the Heresy Terra is protected by a single fleet, and a single chapter of Fists in a Solar System empty of all bar Mars. and Mars is missing its multiple defence and explorator fleets and multiple Ark Mechanicus's.


I was quite surprised the Phalanx wasn't used in the attack on the moon. No mention of it in the book.

I really don't think the Eldar are here to do harm, I think they're here to actually help, if Terra falls surely that means an untold army of Daemons comes out of the Golden Throne which will threaten them more.


----------



## Brobaddon

Yeah I agree with Playingwithhammers, so far these books were excellent but the lack of proper defenses and military forces that the most important planet in entire imperium of mankind SHOULD have is just bugging me constantly. 

Since when Terra was reduced to nothing but militia, merchant fleets and few imperial guard regiments? The books mention a lot of forces being away from Terra and Segmentum in general, but seriously? You would expect a planet that's 10 times more reinforced and defended than Cadia or even Ultramar. Honestly can't hide my dissapointment here. 

On another hand, im slowly starting to be an Ork fan reading this series. The strategy of moving the mountains and encircling the crusade was beyond epic, and the fact a new breed of orks appeared ( those three ambassadors ) completely took me off-guard. 

So not only Orks have crushed Iom in physical confrotation, but they have also evolved diplomats. I couldn't help but to laugh at the irony of Orks having more sense than humans. 

Also: No mention of Vulkan in this book. It looks like you guys have been really refering to one of the books' titles, rather than something in the book. Alrighty.:victory:

Makes me wonder if new Ork codex might contain few of these new surprises. I dont expect Orks to be re-written as some kind of new, serious tactical military force like they're proving to be in these books but I'm positively pleased with what I've read so far.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Well the imperium has grown staggeringly complacent in this time period. Theyve had a lenghty period of peace. Heck, the first book even had the high lords arguing if it was still needed to float the expenses of maintaining the space marine corps!

As it is, the imperium almost got KOed by this initial blow and struggling to scrape the bottom of the barrel to defend terra. This is what happens when deficit hawks runs the show!


I believe its this almost extinction level event caused by the orks, that is strongly to blame for making the imperium utterly virulently xenopobic, almost bought to the brink by xenos. And its the complacency and ineptness of the high lords that eventually spurs drakan vangoric into his terrible event to give the imperium a fresh start.


----------



## Tyriks

Brother Lucian said:


> Well the imperium has grown staggeringly complacent in this time period. Theyve had a lenghty period of peace. Heck, the first book even had the high lords arguing if it was still needed to float the expenses of maintaining the space marine corps!
> 
> As it is, the imperium almost got KOed by this initial blow and struggling to scrape the bottom of the barrel to defend terra. This is what happens when deficit hawks runs the show!
> 
> 
> I believe its this almost extinction level event caused by the orks, that is strongly to blame for making the imperium utterly virulently xenopobic, almost bought to the brink by xenos. And its the complacency and ineptness of the high lords that eventually spurs drakan vangoric into his terrible event to give the imperium a fresh start.


The Emperor himself started the xenophobia.


----------



## Hachiko

Enact The Last Wall and get the xenos pay for it.

Make Terra Great Again.


----------



## Brobaddon

So I'll repeat what somebody said earlier. How's anyone going to defeat a Warhound sized Warboss? I think even Vulkan should lose this, or at least win with some major help.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Angron had a rather......tense encounter with a warhound in betrayer, clearly right on the edge of his ability.


----------



## Brobaddon

Yeah, Although unfortunately for Vulkan, the Beast can do more than just lift his foot and try to stomp him. His weaponary must be stupidly massive. Im thinking his guns must be capable of killing titans lol.

Lets see what the Eldar will do and if there'll be a Custodian response in return. These books are getting more and more exciting with each release.


----------



## piemelke

I agree, this is a good series


----------



## Scrad

Hachiko said:


> Enact The Last Wall and get the xenos pay for it.
> 
> Make Terra Great Again.


Underrated post :laugh:


----------



## Knockagh

Just to throw in an outside the odds comment. Anyone considered that the beast isn't an ork at all? That the orks are being used by another being who is manipulating and magnifying their physic potential, giving the orks the drive to be what we see in the books so far. Will the traitor legions play a bigger role than we imagine? Could the thousand sons be up to old tricks? The great coverup could be the imperium blaming it on the orks do no one knows the arch enemy is still at work. Once the beast is killed the orks will loose their cohesion and be easily defeated. Just a thought.....


----------



## MontytheMighty

Knockagh said:


> Just to throw in an outside the odds comment. Anyone considered that the beast isn't an ork at all? That the orks are being used by another being who is manipulating and magnifying their physic potential, giving the orks the drive to be what we see in the books so far. Will the traitor legions play a bigger role than we imagine? Could the thousand sons be up to old tricks? The great coverup could be the imperium blaming it on the orks do no one knows the arch enemy is still at work. Once the beast is killed the orks will loose their cohesion and be easily defeated. Just a thought.....


That's a cool theory...but would really undermine the Orks' ability to be a massive threat in their own right


----------



## Knockagh

MontytheMighty said:


> Knockagh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to throw in an outside the odds comment. Anyone considered that the beast isn't an ork at all? That the orks are being used by another being who is manipulating and magnifying their physic potential, giving the orks the drive to be what we see in the books so far. Will the traitor legions play a bigger role than we imagine? Could the thousand sons be up to old tricks? The great coverup could be the imperium blaming it on the orks do no one knows the arch enemy is still at work. Once the beast is killed the orks will loose their cohesion and be easily defeated. Just a thought.....
> 
> 
> 
> That's a cool theory...but would really undermine the Orks' ability to be a massive threat in their own right
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it does. In my head the ork threat is explosive it's directed at one target in a huge wave of aggressive anger and hate which just overwhelms in its power. It's a likely to implode on itself as it is to emerge victorious. This is different and I sense a controlling mind which is decidedly unorky. To control the orks natural power which is rooted in explosive power would take someone who has the ability to harness the orks natural connection to the warp.

I don't think this takes away at all from the orks power. It is exactly how orks, in 40k, work. 

Whether the 40k ork makes for a good ork is a different argument. The 40k ork isn't like the organised brutal regiments we see in other fantasy genres. But they are what they are.


----------



## Brother Lucian

You forget about Ullanor. I speculate that a grand ork like Urrlak Uruk or the Beast might be the end result if an ork empire can settle and gain a modicum of stability with an overlord capable of controlling his fractitous underlings. 

If you look at it, so many waaghs are warbosses looking to carve out a name for themselves and get established. Most gets toppled and killed before they can progress to the next stage such as the ork empire of charadon.

Ghazhkull thraka seems well on the way to ascend to the grand ork stage, having an unusual level of control and direction on his growing empire, thanks to his psyker abilities to command through the warp. As well not falling into the trap of trying to do everything himself, but delegating out battles to capable bosses. That to me, shows what the ork mind is capable of once rising to the task.


----------



## Knockagh

Good points we shall have to wait and see! What ever way it turns out it's a great series so far. Maybe the beast will be Tony Blair??


----------



## Reaper45

Brother Lucian said:


> You forget about Ullanor. I speculate that a grand ork like Urrlak Uruk or the Beast might be the end result if an ork empire can settle and gain a modicum of stability with an overlord capable of controlling his fractitous underlings.
> 
> If you look at it, so many waaghs are warbosses looking to carve out a name for themselves and get established. Most gets toppled and killed before they can progress to the next stage such as the ork empire of charadon.
> 
> Ghazhkull thraka seems well on the way to ascend to the grand ork stage, having an unusual level of control and direction on his growing empire, thanks to his psyker abilities to command through the warp. As well not falling into the trap of trying to do everything himself, but delegating out battles to capable bosses. That to me, shows what the ork mind is capable of once rising to the task.


If you think about it most of the time orks aren't matured, so they're violent aggressive and want to do everything themselves.

Then you get an ork like ghazkull or the Beast, they survive the early scraps and turn into commanders.


----------



## Knockagh

Still think it's chaos driven. The hints are there with the inquisition guys talking about how the orks are distracting everyone from the 'real' enemy.


----------



## Reaper45

Knockagh said:


> Still think it's chaos driven. The hints are there with the inquisition guys talking about how the orks are distracting everyone from the 'real' enemy.


The inquisition isn't the most reliable source for information though.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Well bear in mind this is post the first black crusade, they are trying to keep the attention on the traitor legions. From what ive understood, its believed that the first black crusade was the last hurrah of the traitor legions after the horus heresy. So the imperium is content to ignore them in face of other problems, and that complacency is whats bothering the ordo malleus inqusitors.

Remember, the Emperor himself granted the Malleus remit to the inquisition.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Knockagh said:


> I'm not sure it does. In my head the ork threat is explosive it's directed at one target in a huge wave of aggressive anger and hate which just overwhelms in its power. It's a likely to implode on itself as it is to emerge victorious. This is different and I sense a controlling mind which is decidedly unorky. To control the orks natural power which is rooted in explosive power would take someone who has the ability to harness the orks natural connection to the warp.
> 
> I don't think this takes away at all from the orks power. It is exactly how orks, in 40k, work.
> 
> Whether the 40k ork makes for a good ork is a different argument. The 40k ork isn't like the organised brutal regiments we see in other fantasy genres. But they are what they are.


It's implying that to be a massive threat on the scale of the Beast, the Orks have to be guided by some external power...they can't just do it by themselves


----------



## Brobaddon

Yeah I agree about selling Orks short with the theory. The books explain clearly that Orks evolve not only just physically in terms of strength and size, but also socially, culturally, technologically, on a strategic level as well and what not. Hell, you could consider them as grim-dark version of Pokemon almost. 

It imposes the question just how powerful Orks could be/get and where's the actual limit. Personally the Beast and his Waaagh impressed me greatly and I dont think I'll ever look at Orks in the same light.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Losing the Beast as their unifying force. shows just how much their 'Emperor' matters to them. It must have been crippling on a truly apocalyptic level to lose their central lynchpin gluing them together. 

Especially when you look at history, it taking eight thousand years before a potential successor to the Beast emerges at last without getting eliminated. Ghazkull's presence is clearly having a similar transformative effect on the orks. 

The old ones did their work well when they crafted the orks.


----------



## piemelke

Knockagh said:


> Still think it's chaos driven. The hints are there with the inquisition guys talking about how the orks are distracting everyone from the 'real' enemy.


saying that the orks are distracting everyone from the real enemy does not mean they are chaos driven.

I would personally not like the idea of chaos being behind it, as if the orks needs chaos to be so devastating ?

That being said, I have no real idea how the ork invasion compares to the time of ending/crimson path, in all honesty I have the impression that the ork invasion is the 13th crusade squared ?


----------



## Brother Lucian

Do remember that the orks have had such a staggering level of success due to the Imperium simply being unbelievably complacent and still reeling from the peacetime mindset. 

A brutal wake up call for sure, Abbadon sure wasted a golden time to strike at the Imperium imho. Look at the orks, they managed to threaten Terra! Abbadon never got that far.

While an argument could be made for wanting to step in and maul the pieces after the Beast spent himself, the Imperium would still be on a war footing and looking to respond to trouble.


----------



## Reaper45

Brother Lucian said:


> Do remember that the orks have had such a staggering level of success due to the Imperium simply being unbelievably complacent and still reeling from the peacetime mindset.
> 
> A brutal wake up call for sure, Abbadon sure wasted a golden time to strike at the Imperium imho. Look at the orks, they managed to threaten Terra! Abbadon never got that far.
> 
> While an argument could be made for wanting to step in and maul the pieces after the Beast spent himself, the Imperium would still be on a war footing and looking to respond to trouble.


I have to disagree, If Abaddon attacked now when the orks are on the rampage he'd end up having to fight them at the same time as the imperium.

Waiting till after the war is over means that both sides are going to be depleted. If the imperium beats the orks they're still going to be taking severe losses crippling them for centuries.

If the orks win then there's probably going to fight themselves.

WARNING SPECULATION AHEAD

We know that vulcan is going to play a role some how. We also know that Vulcan is not around in the 40K setting.

We also know that Terra is still around meaning the orks were stopped. Meaning that Vulcan had to have played a role somehow.

Since he's not around the imperium lost a figure head.


----------



## Brother Lucian

I think you misunderstood what I said. Why didnt abbadon take advantage of the complacent imperium and attacked. Instead of wasting a golden opportunity and letting the orks run off with the show? Its been a thousand years since the first black crusade if i remember right was sorta 500 years post the horus heresy.


----------



## Reaper45

Brother Lucian said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said. Why didnt abbadon take advantage of the complacent imperium and attacked. Instead of wasting a golden opportunity and letting the orks run off with the show? Its been a thousand years since the first black crusade if i remember right was sorta 500 years post the horus heresy.


Keep in mind that each black crusade involved him united enough of the forces of chaos in order to make it happen.

That would take time. Besides there's no proof that the Beast hasn't taken to abaddons forces yet.


----------



## Brother Lucian

We shall see that soon enough. Book 6 is Echoes of the Long War, though it seems that it mainly will focus on the Iron Warriors force previously shown of.

Throneworld, book 5, should come out this comming weekend. Will be interesting to see what the eldar is up to. Im pretty certain they are planning something with the ruptured Imperial webway gate.


----------



## Duke_Leto

So just finished book 4 The Last Wall. I am so pleasantly surprised by the high quality and standard being maintained in this series. It really is, for me, one of the best things BL have done in years. I truly hope the quality is maintained. Book 5 is Guy Haley and Book 6 is David Guymer then the authors start on their second books, so then we shall see!

Interesting as well, to me, is that Abnett's book was my least favourite and possibly the weakest. Understandable as it was all about set up and being the "first act" but as Abnett is my absolute fav BL author by far, this just surprised me!

I wonder whether the Horus Heresy would have benefited from this sequential series approach (I guess HH is far grander with multiple stories and thus is a setting rather than a single story)


----------



## Reaper45

Duke_Leto said:


> So just finished book 4 The Last Wall. I am so pleasantly surprised by the high quality and standard being maintained in this series. It really is, for me, one of the best things BL have done in years. I truly hope the quality is maintained. Book 5 is Guy Haley and Book 6 is David Guymer then the authors start on their second books, so then we shall see!
> 
> Interesting as well, to me, is that Abnett's book was my least favourite and possibly the weakest. Understandable as it was all about set up and being the "first act" but as Abnett is my absolute fav BL author by far, this just surprised me!
> 
> I wonder whether the Horus Heresy would have benefited from this sequential series approach (I guess HH is far grander with multiple stories and thus is a setting rather than a single story)


I liked the first book personally.



I liked the fact that the Fists pretty much realized that something was amiss and were willing to listen to the magos when he came up with an explanation.

I also like that the assassins are clearly far superior to the inquisition, the inquisition are the secret police of the imperium because the assassins let them.

Allot of good stories to be had there.[/spoilers]


----------



## Duke_Leto

Not saying I did not like I Am Slaughter...I did. Good book. BUT I am surprised that the subsequent books have been so good and have actually made the Abnett book my least favourite so far.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Ok, I cracked recently and bought the Beast series. Here are my thoughts on various categories;


*The Imperial Fists:*

FUCKING BADASS! I have never been a Fists fan, to me they were always the most uninteresting of the original Legions and the First Founding Chapters, the guys who are currently spending most of the HH series getting their asses kicked all the way to Terra. Even the Ultramarines became infinitely more interesting via Uriel Ventris and Know No Fear which turned them from the dull Legion into the tactical badasses and introduced Aeonid Thiel. So after that the Fists became the dull guys, the ones with no real personality and who were eclipsed by their successors, the zealous Black Templars and the stalwart Crimson Fists, even the dour Excoriators. But Abnett has finally done what no other author has managed to do, he made the Imperial Fists into badasses in a single book. Even John French only made Alexis Polux into an awesome character, rather than the Legion as a whole. 

But oh my god the Fists were brilliant here, I loved everything about them. The Wall Names that added so much personality to each Fist, even characters who were nothing but a mentioned name instantly gained character through the descriptive name they bore; Frenzy, Bleedout, Stab, Coldeye, and the Wall Brothers Bastion Ledge, Tranquility, Daylight, etc. The naming system here was instantly stand-out and memorable, and I dearly hope that John French will adopt it for Praetorian of Dorn, or that future Fists writers will adopt it for the 40k Fists. But also the culture of defense they have fostered, naming the companies Walls and the awesome boast *"Daylight Wall stands forever! No other Wall stands against it! Bring them down!"*, the methodical approach to war, and the idea of preparing for every event and having contingencies for every surprise just made the Imperial Fists more interesting than ever before.

Seriously, in my eyes this is one of Abnett's greatest achievements for 40k. He made the Imperial Fists cool.


*The Beast and the Orks:*

Scary. Really damn scary. The Orks appearance in the first book is obvious really, but it's the wording in one particular sentence that I think is not just meant for the characters in-universe but also the readers, players and everyone who loves 40k. When Magos Laurentin thinks in his own head that this can't be the Orks because the Orks are a joke, I thought of all the funny moments of the Orks; the banter in Dark Crusade from Gorgutz, the humour in each Ork codex, and just the element of silliness that the Orks do carry. And then I thought about the Orks in this book, the monsters that were slaughtering the Astartes, the "ubermonster" that is the ultimate manifestation of humanity's primal fears, the terrifying creatures that seemed as far from the Orks of Dawn of War as the Eldar are from the Tyranids. I think that Abnett's monologue through Laurentin was a reminder to the reader that yes the Orks can be funny and comical at times, but they are monsters and something that you should be scared of, and that just set the tone for the Orks for the entire series for me. And each book has only reinforced this.

The Attack Moon was utterly shocking. All I could think was "THE ORKS HAVE A DEATH STAR!!!", and this technological abomination only has to enter orbit of a planet to kill it, it doesn't even have to fire its weapons to kill, it just has to exist. And then we find out that there's more than one of them, which you'd think would dilute the threat and make them more mundane, but all it does is make the Orks even scarier. They can build multiple planet-killing ships, who knows how many of them are actually out there at this point in the series, destroying planets and entire armadas on their own and spreading the Great WAAAGH! across the entire galaxy.

Predator, Prey had them making the galaxy their bitch. The Emperor Expects showed just how dangerous the Attack Moons are, and how far their reach is. And then comes The Last Wall and the scene at the end that was utterly shocking to me; the Ork Ambassadors. Throughout the book the term "cladogenesis" was thrown around and I looked it up; "the evolution of a species into two separate but related clades (strains)". So what we can tell from this unexpected development that had me uttering "This isn't right" over and over is that the Beast isn't just another warboss like Gorgutz, Grimskull and the others. It is an evolutionary force that is changing the Ork race into something else by advancing their race with new forms, even ones that defy everything GW has ever written about Orks by not carrying a single weapon, and clearly enhancing the existing forms giving them incredible new prowess into their fields of expertise, the warriors becoming huge beasts that can go head to head with Astartes, the Mekboys being capable of mastering gravitic technology and weaponizing entire moons, and the Wyrdboyz in creating the psychic blanket that is smothering communication across the Imperium. Truly the Orks are proving in this series that they aren't just the race that loves fighting, that has crappy looking technology and provides most of the jokes in 40k; they are the ultimate monster and something to be feared as much as Chaos.

As for the Beast, holy hell. An Ork the size of an apartment building, possibly the size of a Warhound Titan. His appearance, his skin distended over the mass of muscles that make up his face, his size turning Ork Nobz the size of Astartes and Dreadnoughts look like mere children in comparison, his eloquence as he promises the slaughter to come and the tactical acumen he has displayed as the Orks evolve to become cunning and tactical fighters, combining the strength of discipline, planning before fighting, and reacting to situations in battle with appropriate strategy with the prodigious strength, numerical advantages and adaptability of the Orks makes the Beast into one of the best Big Bads of 40k.


More thoughts to come soon.


LotN


----------



## Reaper45

Yeah I really like how the fists have personalities, reading them is like you're talking to a salamander or Scipio from fall of damnos.

I really like how it showed that they might be confident in their abilities but they're not arrogant to the point of overconfidence.

I also like how these orks aren't just wearing cobbled armor instead it's more like personalized pieces like the cars in Fury road.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Which leaves one wondering, just whats going to happen that cripples these uberorks after the death of the beast? Is it a kind of psychich backlash that causes an apocalyptic devolution in ork kind, that theyve taken eight thousand years to get over?

Or did the imperium do something horrible to the ork race, like a genepoison to bring down the beast and poisoning his lineage?

For the existence of these uberorks are quite hard to reconcile with their far more inept and 'comical' future kind. But perhaps this series is heralding a massive do-over for orks, recasting them as the terror of the galaxy? Who knows. One could also wonder if stormboys is a remnant of the disciplined beast era orks.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Seeing words on B&C that Throneworld will be available the 16th. 
Disappointing, had expected to see it today.


----------



## Doelago

Brother Lucian said:


> Seeing words on B&C that Throneworld will be available the 16th.
> Disappointing, had expected to see it today.


Due to recent hardback releases my bank account is very thankful for this small mercy.


----------



## Reaper45

Brother Lucian said:


> Which leaves one wondering, just whats going to happen that cripples these uberorks after the death of the beast? Is it a kind of psychich backlash that causes an apocalyptic devolution in ork kind, that theyve taken eight thousand years to get over?
> 
> Or did the imperium do something horrible to the ork race, like a genepoison to bring down the beast and poisoning his lineage?
> 
> For the existence of these uberorks are quite hard to reconcile with their far more inept and 'comical' future kind. But perhaps this series is heralding a massive do-over for orks, recasting them as the terror of the galaxy? Who knows. One could also wonder if stormboys is a remnant of the disciplined beast era orks.


Whose to say that the imperium did cripple them?

Maybe the beast went to another galaxy and is Waaagh is what is causing the tyranids to flee.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Doelago said:


> Due to recent hardback releases my bank account is very thankful for this small mercy.


Same here. Means I have some money to buy Blades of Damocles if it isn't crap.


LotN


----------



## Brobaddon

Ah no throneworld yet? Im guessing next week then.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Hmph, just noticed the email citing that Throneworld is out. I just checked the subscriber bundle and it hasnt been added yet :/


----------



## HamsterExAstris

Well that's a PITA. I really wish they had a more convenient way to deal with bundles - redownloading 1.5 GB every month is a waste. More so if it doesn't actually have the new book!


----------



## Brother Lucian

There we go, Throneworld is now available in both direct sale and subscriber bundle.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/throneworld-ebook.html


----------



## Brother Lucian

Finally got around to read Throneworld. Epic! The series keeps getting better and better, it was a real pageturner.

Some highlights


The soul drinkers is considered part of the imperial fists legion at this point in time. The eldar infiltrate the imperial palace and their psychic sight of the Emperor. He does REALLY protect! The custodians finally appear. An unusual alliance between loyalists and traitors. I was right, the successors is being told to reform the imperial fists as it would be a morale disaster if it was known they were dead. Reactions to the black templars flouting the imperial truth.


----------



## Paceyjg

Just finished The Last Wall and I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. For me it was the weakest one by far, mainly due to Annandale' writing style.

I just found it a slog to read the same 'situation' being told over and over again in the same way.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Seems someone has gotten Echoes of the Long War early: found their words on it: Looks interesting!

https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/...g-war-david-guymer-the-beast-arises-book-six/


----------



## Brother Lucian

Echoes of the Long War is now available to download for bundle subscribers. Its been added to the bundle.

Cant yet see it on the Black Library website, so it probably wont be available for general purchase until tomorrow. 

Heard book 7 will be available by the warhammerfest event. Dont know when that is.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Heard Book 7 will be available by the Warhammerfest event. Dont know when that is.


It's May 14th/15th in Coventry. Wish I could go, or knew somebody who was going.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Finished Echoes of the Long War. The plot is getting ferverishly hot now, with a stunner of an ending, revealing the ork homeworld and where the Beast came from.



Its ULLANOR of all places! More than ever now, I feel The Beast have a powerful connection to Urrlak Urruk the former overlord of Ullanor. 



Edit: As expected, Echoes of the Long War is now widely available: 
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/echoes-of-the-long-war-ebook.html


----------



## Anakwanar

Book 6 was bad - worst of all 6 to date. It was a slog to get through it


----------



## Angel of Blood

Anakwanar said:


> Book 6 was bad - worst of all 6 to date. It was a slog to get through it


Yeah I'm with you. The thing I liked about the others was the jumping around. Follow some characters on Terra, one or two on Mars, others elsewhere etc etc. This one pretty much followed Zeberyn the whole damn book, and he couldn't have been a more unlikeable or boring character if he tried. The worst trait of his, was how much he seemed to idolise Guilliman. It was just so painful to read his parts that I skimmed through most of Prax.


----------



## Angel of Blood

The parts on Terra were great though. Koorland taking control of the Council was excellent. The rest was just ughhhhh.


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Hunt for Vulkan has just become available to download for subscribers. Its available in the bundle. Its not up for sale yet.


Finished it. Truly epic. 

Vulkan is like a volcano incarnate. Seriously, his depiction puts all the doings of the primarchs in the Horus Heresy to total shame.




We see the growing conflict between the imperium and the mechanicum, and Kubik folds as he realizes what he had been intending to do was a serious mistake and reaffirms himself to Terra, just as the conflict threatened to go into an irreversible escalation.

The ork development of technology goes to even more senses staggering levels. Carving out whole planets with their gravity weapons to build their attack moons.

The other first founding chapters finally begins to reach terra and joining koorland to find the primarch. Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Blood Angels joins the Last Wall. Together with the imperial guard and the mechanicum, dropping onto the ork invaded world of Caldera.

It takes a whole ork army alone just to contain Vulkan. And he have built a new hammer. Doomtremor, which lives up to its name. Each strike causing collosal and farranging seismic tremors.

Vulkan tells Koorland that he honors the Imperial Fists and he will tell Dorn himself. But he disengages back into the fighting before Koorland can ask about it

The primarch is initially seriously reluctant to return to the imperium, having seen his father's dream turning black with ash and wondering why the Emperor didnt do anything about it. And declaring it was not yet the ordained time for him to return. But when Koorland speaks of Ullanor, it strikes a chord, an echo to the crusade and a horrible portent. So he agrees to lead the last wall, after they have liberated Caldera. Which they do, in absolutely unbelievable and epic fashion.

Upon returning to Terra, the primarch declares that he would rather kill the highlords than working with them, were unity not needed in this time of crisis, even as Drakan silently hopes for the legend to purge the rot and start anew, foreshadowing the Beheading.

The next book is The Beast must die. The first attack on Ullanor.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Avoiding spoilers like the plague for this, but i'll say this. It can't be Vulkan, not really. He's fighting the Daemonic hordes beyond the Great Doors in the Imperial Palace, taking the Emperor's place as protector of Terra from within while the Emperor protects without from the Golden Throne.

It can't really be Vulkan. It can't...


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Theres no doubt its the primarch, causing astartes to kneel with his presence.


Edit: The Hunt for Vulkan is up for sale now!
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/hunt-for-vulkan-ebook.html


----------



## forkmaster

They actually brought him into the series? I haven't read the books but I love following the discussion here. It actually gives Vulcan a great purpose as the actual immortal being he is. Like he cannot die so he is placed to be fighting daemons for an eternity.


Sorry for the missing spoiler-tags.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Edited posts to include spoiler tags.

Guys. Spoilers.

I've not read it yet...


But I did not want to know whether Vulkan was in the novel or not. I was wondering if he would appear or it to be a vain search. It may seem small, hell they might find him two pages in. But I'd rather find out through reading it next time.


----------



## forkmaster

Angel of Blood said:


> Edited posts to include spoiler tags.
> 
> Guys. Spoilers.
> 
> I've not read it yet...
> 
> 
> But I did not want to know whether Vulkan was in the novel or not. I was wondering if he would appear or it to be a vain search. It may seem small, hell they might find him two pages in. But I'd rather find out through reading it next time.


Hey sorry. It was bad of me to write without thinking.


----------



## Mellow_

I'm wondering if the whole comment about Vulkan telling Dorn thing is actually possible, is he still alive? ... Or has his long term memory been wiped every time Vulkan gets nerfed and he has forgotten


----------



## Brother Lucian

Mellow_ said:


> I'm wondering if the whole comment about Vulkan telling Dorn thing is actually possible, is he still alive? ... Or has his long term memory been wiped every time Vulkan gets nerfed and he has forgotten





Well Magnus claimed he knew where Russ was in Battle for the Fang, by that time Russ had long disappeared. But yes, it does sound like that Vulkan knows something as well. Can we really trust that Dorn truly is gone? Especially with the primarchs surely getting increasingly unhappy over what the imperium was turning into. Dorn lost any major say in imperial policy when Guiliman usurped him as lord commander. Vulkan got his hiding place outed by Eldran Ultran, whom had plans for him. The eldar invasion in throneworld was to inform the Emperor of where vulkan was, having a salamander fang as proof.


----------



## Mellow_

i thought that was because Eldrad wanted to prove that he was on the same side as The Emperor against Chaos?

Or was it just "hey look, you have a legend hiding and not doing anything?

It does mention Caldera being burned to ashes by Vulkan before, was that story ever covered in a novel before or is it new content?


----------



## Brother Lucian

Caldera is what Vulkan names the world that the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Death Guard legions and their primarchs takes from the exodites during the Great Crusade as detailed in the novella Promethean Sun by Nick Kyme.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Ugh payday is too far away.


----------



## Brobaddon

> Finally got around to read Throneworld. Epic! The series keeps getting better and better, it was a real pageturner.


Honestly, can't agree here. I've not read Echoes of Long War yet nor the latest book, but I've finished Throneworld today and I can say with confidence this is by far the worst book so far. 



Especially the parts with Black Templars and Iron Warriors. A Black Templar Dreadnaught who has the cheesiest lines i've seen since in a black library book. Magneric, right that was his name. Utterly terrible. Oh and the Iron Warrior captain called Kalkator? Seriously? It sounds like a robot from a bad comic book series. The whole exchange sounded like a bad, forced comedy. I have no idea whether i skipped that guy from the previous entry, but i couldnt care less since i dont know recognize the name, as ridiculous as it is. 

Kalkator: " Oh we must parlay Magneric, orks are upon us! 
Magneric: " No, I have come here to inflict holy judgement upon you as ordained by Holy Emperor! 
Random Black Templar sidekick " My lord, Orks approaching from west! 
Magneric: " Very well. Parley! 

... 
Also, a single harlequien being able to slay a dozen of Custodes on their own? ... Even if its a shadowseer? Give me a break Haley.... 

The only satisfying part was Beast duking it out with another Harlequien and then Vangorich planting a sneak attack from his digi laser ring. Apparently Beast + Vangorich > 20 or so custodes. Oh right, i think its the named character > regular unamed character syndrome.


FTFY - AoB


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brobaddon said:


> Honestly, can't agree here. I've not read Echoes of Long War yet nor the latest book, but I've finished Throneworld today and I can say with confidence this is by far the worst book so far.


I half agree with you.




I hated the Custodes portrayal as well, it just felt as if Haley was having a massive love affair with the Harlequins and wanted to make them look like badasses. They don't need your help on that Haley, they are badasses. But even Harlequins can't utterly own Custodes as you seem to think, nor are the Custodes as weak and pathetic as you seem to think.

But I loved the scenes with Magneric, who was awesome, and Kalkator, who is my favourite character of the series along with Maximus Thane and Beast Krul.




LotN


----------



## Lord Mephiston

The first book by Dan Abnett was the best. Dan really knows how to write Space Marines well. Not like the emotional bleeding-heart humanists that Aaron Dembski Bowden made out of the feared Night Lords. Only some of the BL authors these days can really write good Space Marines. Dan should write more SMs and less humans lol.


----------



## Brother Lucian

TBA 8, The Beast Must Die! has just become available to download for subscribers. To Ullanor at last!

Edit:
Finished it. When you think the orks has reached the limits of what they can show you, they keep pushing further and defying all expectations. I am absolutely thriled for the next books in the series.


The Imperium should be afraid, REALLY afraid of Ghazkull Thraka if he can reach the same lofty plateaus as the great beast. And shouldve been a lot more dilligent in taking him out.

Edit2
Noticed the general sale page has gone up.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-beast-must-die-ebook.html


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Just started _Throneworld_. Have enjoyed the series so far, more for the portrayal of the Orks as a real and present threat to the survival of the Imperium, as opposed to most of what we've seen of them to date almost as comic relief rather than a threat to be taken as seriously as the hive fleets or black crusades. The fact that the quality continues to remain high despite each book flipping from author to author is also a big plus.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Just finished reading Beast Must Die. This is insane. How the hell can one Ork Warboss be so OP !? Basically this whole shebang needs Great Crusade 2.0 to begin all over again and the Emperor and Horus Lupercal to be physically present to deal with this situation. The legions should not have been divided IMHO. Guilliman's mistake came back to bite the Imperium in it's incompetent ass.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Finished The Beast Must Die! (Added the exclamation point for awesomeness) last night and OH. MY. GOD!!!!!!!!!!!




THE BEAST IS THE ORK VERSION OF THE EMPEROR!!!

Holy f*ck... the Beast is the Orkoid version of the Emperor himself. The Emperor embodies the psychic nature of humanity and the Beast is the embodiment of the WAAAGH! energy that all Orks possess. He even has the badass armour, mysterious nature and can even speak Gothic fluently and perfectly.

Even the Imperial Palace was replicated in Gorkogrod. As I was reading that scene is felt utterly wrong (in the good way) as Koorland and the strike force found an Ork structure that was ordered, clean, even futuristic looking. Their Hall of Heroes was interesting, but it didn't hit me until they found the "Eternity Gate" guarded by the two Stompas that I realized what the Temple-Gargant really was. It was the Beast's own version of the Emperor's Sanctum, complete with the "elite Custodian" guard and Titan attendants. And even the Throne, the Beast has his own Golden Throne for the WAAAGH! network.

When they saw the statue, I knew instantly what it was. And when the penny dropped... everything that followed was epic.





Brother Lucian said:


> The Imperium should be afraid, REALLY afraid of Ghazkull Thraka if he can reach the same lofty plateaus as the great beast. And shouldve been a lot more dilligent in taking him out.


Fortunately for the Imperium Ghazghkull is nowhere near the Beast's level, yet. But if he can become even close to what the Beast actually is, with the Imperium's current state in 40k... it won't be good for anyone.

But with the Beast's nature being revealed, it raises many many many questions;




What exactly is the Beast then? And by that extension, what exactly is the Emperor? Both are clearly beings of the same nature, an embodiment of psychic might that reflects the nature of their people, the Emperor being the anti-thesis to the Warp while the Beast personifies the WAAAGH! But how does such a being come about? With the Beast being revealed as the same type of being, it's clear that the Emperor isn't a fluke or a random event, he is something that can happen again, and maybe has happened before.

The Emperor's original backstory of being born when all the Shamans of Terra committed mass suicide and were reborn into a single being may not hold weight anymore with reveal of the Beast, unless perhaps the Beast is the product of something similar by Ork Wyrdboyz out in the dark parts of the galaxy. But I doubt it. The Beast seems more like a product of natural evolution, but also a catalyst to send said evolution into hyperdrive. The Orks are showing that with the Beast present their very species is evolving, new forms of Orkoid life are emerging from the Ambassador caste that the High Lords witnessed to the Priestly caste that Esad Wire saw in Gorkogrod, or Farmers as Kalkator and Zerberyn found on Prax (though the Ork version of farming is pretty far from what you'd normally think of from what word). Perhaps, theory here, even a dedicated Soldier caste through the axe-marked Orks that Kalkator and Zerberyn fought at Prax, Orks that use discipline and tactics rather than just the brute force of the horde, something further seen in the Beast's elite guard. Money, entertainment, business and all the trappings of a civilised people are emerging in the Ork species, and it is the Beast's presence that has begun this accelerated form of societal and genetic evolution.

But if the Beast is all that i've just said, what is the Emperor? Is he a similar catalyst for evolution in humanity? The human race did make great strides in the Great Crusade, and even before, but since we don't know when the Emperor first emerged for real (it was definitely not the Unification Wars, he was around long before that) we can't really know if humanity made the great leaps and strides that the Orks are doing now in the series. Maybe the Emperor was also a force for change in the same way the Beast was, the Golden Age of Technology could have been the cultural reneissance for humanity that the Great WAAAGH! is for the Orks, but we all know how that Age ended. Which brings another question, has all this happened before?

The Eldar were the dominant race before humanity came onto the galactic plane, but how did they get there. The Myth Cycles of the Eldar tell of a time when the Gods walked among them and taught them how to become great, guided them from an agricultural people into the Empire builders that they were before the Fall, perhaps those cycles are more literal than even the Eldar believe. If my theory is to be believed, it might be possible that in the past similar beings to the Emperor and the Beast have been formed/evolved/born/etc and guided other races into the future. Asuryan, Khaine, Isha and the rest were all said to have been real and physical at one point, maybe they were the same kind of being as the Emperor and the Beast but rather than all the power concentrated into one host, the Eldar version of this catalyst was spread across multiple beings that each embodied an aspect of change, which would be fitting considering the nature of a large part of the Eldar racial soul. But what does all this mean?

The only other race that we know of in detail that were a major power were the Necrontyr, and we know no such thing occurred for them. But why? The Necrontyr were not around for as long as humanity, the Eldar and the Orks were in a measure of time. Perhaps they didn't stay flesh and mortal long enough for a Necrontyr version of this catalyst to evolve, something that would have propelled their race forward and into a new form. Instead they turned to an outside source and became the Necrons, forever diverting their race from the natural progression of a species. So the question is, what are the Emperor and the Beast exactly? And is the emergence of such a being a natural moment in a species evolution that drives them forward?

Perhaps, or perhaps not. The Chaos Gods were definitely invested in humanity and the Eldar, but they show no interest in the Orks that we know of. And they seemed to have a personal vendetta against the Emperor that went beyond his simply screwing them over in the Primarch Project. There's enough evidence to state that the Emperor is a unique event, a being that has never existed before, but to me this series has given evidence that perhaps he isn't so unique, perhaps something like him emerging is an event that can occur for any species if they exist for enough time, a catalyst for evolution.

The Emperor failed, the Eldar Gods failed, and the Beast is going to fail. Ghazghkull on the other hand... if he truly is another Beast that is still becoming, then perhaps the Orks chance at evolving is still there. But if Ghazghkull truly is the Beast reincarnated, then could it be possible for the Emperor to reincarnate in such a way as well? The Emperor is kept alive by the Imperium due to the necessity of his existence, but if such a being can be formed again as it seems the Beast through Ghazghkull might be, then if the Emperor were allowed to die, could another Emperor come about as the first one did? Humanity would be ravaged by Chaos and all the other myriad xenos threats in the interim, but they were in that position once before. The Emperor came and fixed it all, for a time. If a new Emperor could form, humanity could enter a resurgent period, only perhaps more aware of the failings of the past and how to avoid them.

Maybe. Lot of theory and speculation there.




LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Ive heard blabber that Watchers in Death may be released this weekend. Eager to read of the founding of the deathwatch.



Some pretty interesting words from you, LoTN. Losing the Beast, have been a truly cataclysmic event for orkkind, with how they have degenerated without the presence of the Beast. But orks grow bigger the more successful they are, attracting others to join them and forcing a coheresive waagh. But usually the warboss gets stomped on before he can get far. Ghazkull has proven to be exception and he have reached much further than warbosses have done before him. I think he have a good shot at becomming the Beast 2.0, especially with how his psychic powers are growing, able to command his followers across the great green. And already he is showing 'unorky' behavior, not leading from the front like so many other warbosses, but delegating out. And theres been storyblurbs saying his horde is eclipsing that of the Beast of old. Now to speculation for the supposed moving to one minute in midnight for warhammer 40k. Ghaz becomes the new beast. The reborn Emperor pulls a Sigmar and drafts the orks to join him against chaos. Which i think is quite plausible, due to their similar natures.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Hmmm. I wouldn't say the Beast is on the same level as the Emperor or of the same class. If he was, Vulkan wouldn't have lasted a second. Primarch level yes, but not the Emperor.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm. I wouldn't say the Beast is on the same level as the Emperor or of the same class. If he was, Vulkan wouldn't have lasted a second. Primarch level yes, but not the Emperor.




Well the Beast held itself with ease against Vulkan and survived his final warpsponge attack. I had the feeling that Vulkan tried the all out suicide attack because he realized he was woefully outmatched as the Beast was toying with him. Alas it failed.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> I've heard blabber that Watchers in Death may be released this weekend. Eager to read of the founding of the deathwatch.


I think next week is more likely. This Saturday will see the game Death Masque go up for pre-order, while next Saturday the new Corvus Blackstar transport goes up for pre-order, most likely with the Deathwatch Kill-Team kits. That is probably when Watchers goes up.



Brother Lucian said:


> Ghazkull has proven to be exception and he have reached much further than warbosses have done before him. I think he have a good shot at becomming the Beast 2.0, especially with how his psychic powers are growing, able to command his followers across the great green. And already he is showing 'unorky' behavior, not leading from the front like so many other warbosses, but delegating out. And theres been storyblurbs saying his horde is eclipsing that of the Beast of old.


Possible:




Ghazghkull definitely has the potential in my opinion, but he lacks a critical advantage that the Beast enjoyed, and is now impossible for Ghazghkull. The Imperium didn't know about the Beast until it was too late to prevent his rise, whereas the Imperium is VERY aware of Ghazghkull, and important figures (Helbrecht, Yarrick, Grimaldus, etc) have recognized the threat he poses (or at least part of it, if they had any actual idea what he might become I think they'd have all 6000 Black Templars hunting him down) and are trying to deal with him sharpish.





Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm. I wouldn't say the Beast is on the same level as the Emperor or of the same class. If he was, Vulkan wouldn't have lasted a second. Primarch level yes, but not the Emperor.





Perhaps not quite the same power level, yet. But I think that the Beast and the Emperor are the same type of being, so perhaps it's a case of the Beast not having reached his full potential yet whereas the Emperor we all know and love/hate had reached his peak.





Brother Lucian said:


> Well the Beast held itself with ease against Vulkan and survived his final warpsponge attack. I had the feeling that Vulkan tried the all out suicide attack because he realized he was woefully outmatched as the Beast was toying with him. Alas it failed.





That was my impression as well. And because we all know, Vulkan included, that death doesn't mean much to the Lord of Drakes.




LotN


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm. I wouldn't say the Beast is on the same level as the Emperor or of the same class. If he was, Vulkan wouldn't have lasted a second. Primarch level yes, but not the Emperor.


Well I believe that the ending and preview of book 9 indicate something else. 



I am willing to bet that Vulkan's body has been Possessed by The WAAAGH energy that Vulkan took into himself, in addition to all of the Beast's energy and soul etc. 

That is what is controlling Vulkan, and it's Vulkan's voice we hear at the very end in the Vox Transmission. The final battle, ending and preview of the next book indicate that. 

A WAAAGH possessed Primarch is a totally 'New Threat' as indicated in the book 9 preview. And something that is literally inconcievable for the Imperium, and something so insane that it's not even been considered by Black Library or Games Workshop till now! Hence the need for a completely new, super elite Chapter formed using the very best Astartes of other chapters that specializes in dealing with totally whacked out 1 of a kind Xenos threats like this one


And why is no one talking about that final epitaph of Vulkan at the beginning of the last chapter, eh !? The guy basically called it for the next 8500 years, and now we know the origin of the introduction to every 40k piece of literature !!!


----------



## Lord of the Night

Lord Mephiston said:


> And why is no one talking about that final epitaph of Vulkan at the beginning of the last chapter, eh !? The guy basically called it for the next 8500 years, and now we know the origin of the introduction to every 40k piece of literature !!!


Ah yes, that was an incredible moment. To know where the signature words, the paragraph that sums up 40k, comes from was quite a revelation, especially that it was Vulkan that said it.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Hrm, my thought regarding the origin of the Deathwatch. Simply that the Imperium is finally wising up to the fact that the orks are a true threat to be taken seriously at last. So far theyve constantly and grossly underestimated the ork cunning. Thinking them just savage and mindless brutes, and the hordes of the beast is anything but mindless and undisciplined. It will take an entirely different approach among the astartes and the imperium to deal with such a xenos threat. Hence the founding of the Deathwatch.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, my thought regarding the origin of the Deathwatch. Simply that the Imperium is finally wising up to the fact that the orks are a true threat to be taken seriously at last. So far theyve constantly and grossly underestimated the ork cunning. Thinking them just savage and mindless brutes, and the hordes of the beast is anything but mindless and undisciplined. It will take an entirely different approach among the astartes and the imperium to deal with such a xenos threat. Hence the founding of the Deathwatch.


IMHO simply assassinating Xenos leaders is something the Assassinorum is more than capable of. It's the event of something so unimaginable, so insane that a special Chapter needs to be created just to deal with these one of a kind threats that even a normal Astartes chapter cannot even believe might be possible. And besides, look at this from a Games Workshop/Black Library point of view. They've done and tried everything. But this, the idea of a 

Primarch falling not to Chaos, but to the raw power of WAAAAGH and getting possessed by it, is something even the most crazy fan-fiction writer on 1d4chan could not come up with lol
 

Now that is one hell of a revelation if it ever happens. Nothing more grimdark than that after the Horus Heresy IMHO.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord Mephiston said:


> IMHO simply assassinating Xenos leaders is something the Assassinorum is more than capable of. It's the event of something so unimaginable, so insane that a special Chapter needs to be created just to deal with these one of a kind threats that even a normal Astartes chapter cannot even believe might be possible. And besides, look at this from a Games Workshop/Black Library point of view. They've done and tried everything. But this, the idea of a
> 
> Primarch falling not to Chaos, but to the raw power of WAAAAGH and getting possessed by it, is something even the most crazy fan-fiction writer on 1d4chan could not come up with lol
> 
> 
> Now that is one hell of a revelation if it ever happens. Nothing more grimdark than that after the Horus Heresy IMHO.




The Beast Krule already attempted to assassinate the Beast, but was spooked badly and realized he couldnt touch the Beast by himself, despite being the master assassin.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, my thought regarding the origin of the Deathwatch. Simply that the Imperium is finally wising up to the fact that the orks are a true threat to be taken seriously at last. So far they've constantly and grossly underestimated the ork cunning. Thinking them just savage and mindless brutes, and the hordes of the beast is anything but mindless and undisciplined. It will take an entirely different approach among the astartes and the imperium to deal with such a xenos threat. Hence the founding of the Deathwatch.


Indeed, but it's also the fact that:




Esad Wire came closer to the Beast than any of them before the Beast actually came to them. If the Beast hadn't revealed himself, the Imperials would never have gotten to him before the Orks wiped them out.

Hence why the excerpt from Watchers in Death has Koorland asking Vangorich how the Assassinorum makes war. The Deathwatch were modelled on the Assassin Temples, which explains a lot of how they function.




LotN


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Brother Lucian said:


> The Beast Krule already attempted to assassinate the Beast, but was spooked badly and realized he couldnt touch the Beast by himself, despite being the master assassin.


True, but that's simply because The Beast is not just any simple Ork Warboss. 



He's the zoggin Emperor of the Orks. Replace the psychic energy of The Emperor with WAAAGH and The Beast is what you get. It'll be like trying to assassinate The Emperor himself. Something that even the Chaos Gods and their most powerful proxy, Horus, tried their best to do and failed.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord of the Night said:


> Indeed, but it's also the fact that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esad Wire came closer to the Beast than any of them before the Beast actually came to them. If the Beast hadn't revealed himself, the Imperials would never have gotten to him before the Orks wiped them out.
> 
> Hence why the excerpt from Watchers in Death has Koorland asking Vangorich how the Assassinorum makes war. The Deathwatch were modelled on the Assassin Temples, which explains a lot of how they function.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN




Which looks to be genesis of the Deathwatch tactic of kill-teams. A marked difference from the usual astartes strategy. Which fits with what I said about the astartes having to learn to battle xenos in a different way from what they were used to. I suspect, that at the time, many of the chapters was still too reliant on legion tactics for exterminating xenos, which had become increasingly outdated after the second founding and downsizing to chapters.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Had a rather nice surprise today: (Warning, don't open these spoiler tags unless you want to be jealous.)















This was followed by this; (I wanted a video of Mr Burns laughing when a window cleaner is hanging from his wall, but couldn't find it.)






> > >


LotN


----------



## Sevatar

Finished The Beast Must Die, I have pretty mixed feelings about it.





The fleet sent to Ullanor could just Exterminatus the place immediately upon arrival.

And the Imperium plunders into yet another trap upon landing. The Orks are supposed to be the uber threat here, I know. But the incompetence of the SM command in particular is the way bigger issue. Vulkan being emo about the state of the Imperium and not doing jack shit until it's too late is just ughhh.

The moment when you realize where (part?) of the 40k intro blurb comes from was amazing.

Not quite sure what to make of the titular Beast itself. Vulkan's interaction with the Ork essence was pretty nuts, fan-fiction level nuts. It depends largely on how it will be resolved in the coming books.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Finished Watchers in Death today. It was... well it had good moments, but if it weren't for the utter debacle of Throneworld, this would be the weakest book of the series.




Really this book felt like a full novel with every scene not devoted to action cut out. After the first quarter the book is, apart from one brief chapter, all about the Deathwatch and is essentially a series of missions they go on with no breaks in-between. One mission ends, and the next scene is the next one beginning. Which was a shame because the missions they undertook were good, though not quite on the level of Steve Parker's Deatwatch (which will forever be the gold standard), but still pretty decent in idea (execution was another matter). Watchers in Death is the purest expression of bolter-porn that i've ever read from Black Library, even more so than the Age of Sigmar Realmgate Wars books because even those have some character development and have the excuse of there being nothing else to write about.

And not one Deathwatch died. Not a single one. A team of five men took down the Attack Moon where the Proletarian Crusade and the Last Wall failed. The same team then ghosted their way through an overrun Imperial temple and recovered vital information. Then infiltrated an Ork Battleship and detonated the dwarf star powering it, taking out an entire Ork fleet in the process and saving the lost weapon that the novel revolves around them finding. And in all that, they lose nobody. Twice a Blood Angels loses it to the Rage, yet neither of them go down and get rescued. A Space Wolf Rune Priest takes a direct hit from a Looted Tank's cannon, and he gets rescued. And in every mission the Deathwatch just completely own everything, no Ork can stand against them and their ability to work together. It reads as if all it will take to defeat the Orks is the Space Marines working in unison with each other. One scene does give a decent reason why five Astartes are making hundreds of Orks fall back, but it still rings a bit hollow when you consider that no other scene gave explanations to why it was working, and they were just as big "What's happening here?" moments.

And sadly the options for characters were squandered completely. The Deathwatch here has exactly five Chapters in it. The Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves and the Fists Exemplar. And the characters used were all what we expect from these chapters; the tightly controlled Blood Angel, the studious and exact Ultramarine, the secretive Dark Angel, the boisterous and loud Space Wolf, etc. Nothing special or new to be found here sir, now move along.

Really it felt as if Annandale was having nearly as big a love affair with the Deathwatch here as Guy Haley had with the Harlequins in Throneworld. The Deathwatch are the elite, they are moon destroyers, fleet killers, army routers. The Beast should fear them, because if an Astartes squad is made of five different chapters rather than one, it suddenly becomes unstoppable. To be honest the only chapter that actually felt worthwhile to have read was the return of Captain Zerberyn and Warsmith Kalkator as Zerberyn continues to wrestle with his decision to ally with Kalkator, and the first sign of discontent among his ranks appears.

Other then that things are pretty much par for the course. Koorland continues to angst over being a politician, Wienand continues to be a devious bitch, the High Lords continue to set a new record for stupidity that even Hermann von Strab would be slack-jawed at, and Kalkator continues to be awesome.



That said the book did have some good parts;




The aforementioned Zerberyn chapter, which really makes me wonder what road Zerberyn might be beginning to walk down. He really needs to get away from Kalkator, and fast.

The return of the Sisters of Silence was suitably awesome, even if some uber Deathwatch antics overshadowed it in-universe. But when the gates opened and their Rhinos came flying onto the battlefield, it was a brilliant moment. Even the Deathwatch thought so. The last Imperial legends have rejoined the war, and the Beast really should be afraid now. (Even more interesting though is the Knight-Abyssian's statement that the Imperium made it clear they didn't want the Sisters help centuries ago. What the hell does that mean?? Did Guilliman exile them?? Or the successive High Lords?? Really want to know more about that.)

The founding of the Deathwatch was their only non super-awesome-epic-badass moment, a number of the marines deciding to darken their armour to black seems insignificant. But at this moment it becomes an omen and thus the black of the Deathwatch was born, with only the right shoulderpad retaining the colour of the brother's Chapter. I also enjoyed seeing how the Deathwatch got their name, again just one of those moments that to these characters is insignificant, but to the readers is historic and very important.



So on the whole this novel had it's moments, but i'm looking forward to the next novel which will hopefully get us back to a great read and not just an acceptable one.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Yeah, i had a feeling it would be a filler novel. Considering the next two books after watchers in death takes us back to ullanor again, and then the post finale.

Regarding..


Untouchables was quite feared during the great crusade, especially with clade culexus being on terra at the time and threatening to obscure the astronomican. Look at their early history. Culexus Temple - Warhammer 40k - Wikia I have a feeling that the following rulers post the deaths or disappearances of the primarchs, sought to get rid of the 'abominations' they didnt understand.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Yeah, i had a feeling it would be a filler novel. Considering the next two books after watchers in death takes us back to ullanor again, and then the post finale.
> 
> Regarding..
> 
> 
> Untouchables was quite feared during the great crusade, especially with clade culexus being on terra at the time and threatening to obscure the astronomican. Look at their early history. Culexus Temple - Warhammer 40k - Wikia I have a feeling that the following rulers post the deaths or disappearances of the primarchs, sought to get rid of the 'abominations' they didnt understand.


Possibly, but;




It seems the Culexes are still around. So why get rid of the "abominations" that the Emperor endorsed personally and kept near him, and keep the ones that the Emperor didn't really care much for. I think there may be more to it than just the Sisters being Pariahs.




LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

tbh, the sisters of silence was much more overt than the culexii, and the assassins probably got very good at hiding their existence from nosy highlords given how they barely avoiding being shut down in the Emperor's time. I feel the dismissal of the sisters probably was born out of human failings, fearing what they didnt understand, and or worrying for the astronomican with the increased focus on Emperor worship. Especially with the imperium becomming at 'peace'.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Watchers in Death has just been released for subscribers. I grabbed the bundle and added it to my kindle.

Edit: Finished it. I found it a good enough read. Was quite interesting to read about the founding of the deathwatch and the new legend they have to find.


I do agree with LoTN that the Deathwatch had some truly incredible plotarmor. And just what happened to the astartes to make them so terribly more potent in mixed chapter squads?


Regarding The Beast..


I paid note to Koorland's thoughts of how the beast couldnt have survived, but its essence still lived on in a form. I suspect that the grievously wounded Beast, have been interred in its own 'golden throne' to sustain it due to the injuries Vulkan dealt it.



Edit:
Watchers in Death is now openly available:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-beast-arises/the-beast-arises-novels/watchers-in-death-ebook.html


----------



## Angel of Blood

So regarding _The Hunt for Vulkan_. Did anyone else just feel like huge swathes of the scenes on Mars were adverts for the Skitarii army? It just really came across as a marketing book.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Skitarius and Tech Priest was far, far worser in that regard. nothing but constant product placement for the skitarii army in those 2.


----------



## Paceyjg

The series seems to be going down in quality as far as i'm concerned! The Beast Must Die should be coming through my letter box today, and it had better be an improvement on the last two


----------



## Brother Lucian

the beast must die is one of the best ones so far.


----------



## Doelago

Eh, _Watchers in Death_... An okay read I guess, but so much squandered potential... 

Scattered thoughts and ramblings below.


The founding of the Deathwatch felt like a bunch of random marines just walking into a room, one of them starts shouting Deathwatch and the rest just join in on the chanting and having a space bro moment. It just felt very hollow and rushed to me.
And how do the marines suddenly turn into epic orc mass murderers that blow up moons, space ships and titans like no ones business? In the 40K setting them being very good at their thing makes sense, being the best of the best in their respective fields, armed with the very best weaponry and technology. But these guys just felt like a random bunch of stereotypical marines thrown together, quickly re-painting their armour and going full on 80’s action movie on the orks. Also holy shit there was nothing at stake at all, at no moment did it feel like any of them were at any risk of ever dying. The Blood Angels walking a very thin line between succumbing to the black rage twice, but no problem either time and the Techmarine miraculously surviving like that. And _none_ of them had any character beyond chapter stereotype. 

The first chapter of the good was quite good, then it just devolved into page after page of Deathwatch bolter porn butchering orks left, right center with a few pages of politics trickled down here and there. A lot of very interesting material, like the search for the Sisters of Silence was jumped over in favour of getting to the next bolter porn section. It is as if the author did not dare/know how to explore these unknown parts of the universe and simply sprinkled in the absolute bare minimum to make the story work and then proceed to fill out the page count with more bolter porn. It just kept jumping from the end of one mission straight to the start of the next one with nothing in between and so much potential was squandered. 

And the orks having arrived to a place right before the Imperium arrives there is becoming a serious cliche in this series. There is always an ork fleet attacking whatever place the characters in the story are traveling to. Some variance, please! Instead of shoving the entire Sisters of Silence thing onto like two and a half pages because hey, got to show the space bros having a space bro moment blowing up the titan, they could have entirely skipped that shit and have explored the Silent Sisterhood in more detail instead, since there was so much there to explore. Why were they exiled? Why do they speak? What kind of fortress were they in? What had they been doing there? And so on and so on. But no, instead we just get a quick argument were they at first don‘t want to defend the Imperium and by extension the Emperor, but name drop Vulkan and ouh suddenly it so conveniently is okay to fight for the sake of the Emperor. It was no the worst argument in a 40K novel ever, since most of them are fucking shit, but the reasoning behind them not wanting to fight and suddenly being all "Lets go to war babes" just felt like the author trying to come up with a small conflict for the Inquisitor to resolve but could not come up with a better or more compelling way of doing it. 

And what did Vangorich teach Koorland that suddenly made small kill teams the absolutely best idea ever and somehow made small five man teams more effective than several chapters of Astartes combined? Then when they blew up the moon, debris falls all over Terra and kills hundreds of millions, but the book just leaves it at that. Might as well not have happened for all the relevance it had. Why does the book skip over all of that? All this skipping over the details and such are really what drag this book down for me. I read through it in one reading, because it was adequately well written and I was intrigued by the stuff that it promised to show but ended up barely grazing in favour of space bros. Quite the let down in the end, but flying Rhinos were awesome. For the two lines of text dedicated to them.


----------



## Paceyjg

Brother Lucian said:


> the beast must die is one of the best ones so far.


Started it and it seems very good (thankfully)!


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Last Son of Dorn is available for subscribers. It has been added to the bundle, just grabbed it and added it to my kindle!

Koorland will get to face the Beast at last, and we will see what happened post the fight with Vulkan.


Edit: This one makes up for the disappointment of watchers in death. Several long anticipiated questions are being answered, i love it!


Edit 2: Finished it......I never saw that comming. Dark, dark times ahead. But one hope remains, 'they' seem finally set to take the stage.


Edit 3: 

The Inquisition's and Veritus's obsessive need to keep secrets has cost mankind dearly. 3 times now Veritus holds crucial knowledge about Imperial assets. How much could have been saved, or disasters averted if Vulkan, the Sisters of Silence and.... 

The Grey Knights all had gone at once to Ullanor the first time? The Grey Knights is looking to be the final salvation of mankind for the third and last assault on Ullanor in the next book.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Speculation...




So if the Grey Knights are going to deal with the beasts, I am suspecting we might see a massed charge of Nemesis Dreadknights. They were after all built for giving them the size and strenght to cope with greater daemons. Koorland, mighty as he were, was woefully outmatched by the Beast in physical provess and size.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Brother Lucian said:


> Speculation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if the Grey Knights are going to deal with the beasts, I am suspecting we might see a massed charge of Nemesis Dreadknights. They were after all built for giving them the size and strenght to cope with greater daemons. Koorland, mighty as he were, was woefully outmatched by the Beast in physical provess and size.


I think dreadknights are a more recent addition to the GK armoury. IIRC they are based on Tau 
technology, who, at the time of the beast, were still living in caves.


----------



## Brother Lucian

The penultimate book is available, Shadow of Ullanor
Black Library & Warhammer Digital - Shadow of Ullanor eBook

After two failed attempts to annihiliate the orks, and the deaths of countless heroes, the Imperium may finally have a solution. But to win the war will take unthinkable sacrifice…
*READ IT BECAUSE*
It's the penultimate instalment in The Beast Arises series and the stakes couldn't be higher… We'd love to say more, but it might spoil the massive events that have happened so far, and those still to come! Just read it and see for yourself.




I am twitching to get sunk into this one..


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Just finished Echoes of the Long War. While the whole dynamic between the Fists Exemplar and IWs was a bit too easy and convenient, it was pretty good.


----------



## Knockagh

Brother Lucian said:


> The penultimate book is available, Shadow of Ullanor
> Black Library & Warhammer Digital - Shadow of Ullanor eBook
> 
> After two failed attempts to annihiliate the orks, and the deaths of countless heroes, the Imperium may finally have a solution. But to win the war will take unthinkable sacrifice…
> *READ IT BECAUSE*
> It's the penultimate instalment in The Beast Arises series and the stakes couldn't be higher… We'd love to say more, but it might spoil the massive events that have happened so far, and those still to come! Just read it and see for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am twitching to get sunk into this one..



Me too, sounds very inviting! I will put corax aside for a day or two. 

Have to say I'm getting excited about the prospect of another monthly series after the beast. I think they have been pretty clear this has been a success.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Finished it, a great read even if it could have benefitted from more pages on Ullanor itself and the ending proper. Seemed a little rushed. But a lot of loose ends has been tied up, but several questions remains unanswered and I doubt the final book will provide much if any for those. Plus a big red herring, I really had expected to see them, but guess they were too busy.



Wished we had learned more about the Beast, and it felt like a wasted opportunity to never have the Beast talk again in assault 2 and 3. The first assault on Ullanor proved that the Beast could speak perfect gothic.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Caught an interesting comment over on B&C:

judging from what Goulding has said elsewhere (namely thefirstexpedition) TBA went through some rewrites within the last month to a year - originally the conception of the series was going to have a DAoT link, where humanity attempts to use the Men of Iron to defeat the Beast. I think that got booted in favor of the impending DW release.


Yeah, I can see that. You really had an old tech vibe in The Beast must die. Unusually clean and straight rooms filled with what looked like old technology in the beast's lair. But then they hamfisted in the deathwatch and had their founding tied to the TBA saga, and by proxy, the Beast went from being a scheming gothic speaking mastermind threatening to roll the human empire completely, to just a grunting oversized ork warboss.



The high point of the series was definitely the beast must die imho.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Caught an interesting comment over on B&C:
> 
> judging from what Goulding has said elsewhere (namely thefirstexpedition) TBA went through some rewrites within the last month to a year - originally the conception of the series was going to have a DAoT link, where humanity attempts to use the Men of Iron to defeat the Beast. I think that got booted in favor of the impending DW release.


That's a real disappointment if true. The Men of Iron would have been FAAAR more interesting to read about than the Deathwatch. This is why BL and GW need to separate themselves more, which hopefully is still happening in the future with the establishment of Warhammer Publishing, the releases shouldn't dictate what happens in a primary multi-book series like The Beast Arises. I can understand and embrace the Legends of the Dark Millennium series because that series is ultimately about introducing newbies to the universe while highlighting all the relevant, i.e tabletop, aspects of the factions. It works because those books are all about that and we don't expect anything else.

But to alter a series like TBA in favour of a release is not a good move. And it shows with Watchers in Death being the weakest of the series bar Throneworld, and Throneworld only takes the weakest in show entry for me because of the Custodes vs Harlequins atrocity.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord of the Night said:


> That's a real disappointment if true. The Men of Iron would have been FAAAR more interesting to read about than the Deathwatch. This is why BL and GW need to separate themselves more, which hopefully is still happening in the future with the establishment of Warhammer Publishing, the releases shouldn't dictate what happens in a primary multi-book series like The Beast Arises. I can understand and embrace the Legends of the Dark Millennium series because that series is ultimately about introducing newbies to the universe while highlighting all the relevant, i.e tabletop, aspects of the factions. It works because those books are all about that and we don't expect anything else.
> 
> But to alter a series like TBA in favour of a release is not a good move. And it shows with Watchers in Death being the weakest of the series bar Throneworld, and Throneworld only takes the weakest in show entry for me because of the Custodes vs Harlequins atrocity.
> 
> 
> LotN


Yeah, felt pretty obvious when watchers in death was timed to come out with the deathwatch release.


----------



## Doelago

Overal, really liked _Shadow of Ulanor_, altho it felt like they tried to jam way more content into the book than the page count allowed and thus it felt like a lot of things very quickly glossed over and it felt like it jumped forward a lot. 





Really, really enjoyed the scene with Vangorich confronting the Lord Admiral and Lord Militant. Outplayed so hard. Koorland barely being mentioned beyond "Lets go bury him at Inwit", only to not even feature a burial but instead just jump straight to a Feast of Blades felt rushed. Expected way more time to be spent on the death of the Lord Commander of the Imperium, but probably the page count of the books working against all the content jammed into this one. 

Also, slightly odd seeing Thane go from basically being Koorlands errand boy Chapter Master straight to ass kicker extreme, Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists and basically shove a big middle finger right at the High Lords faces. 

Felt like there could have been more time spent on Ulanor tho, felt really rushed. Also, the Beast went down like a little bitch in the end (probably due to the page count). Expected a bit more of a struggle after the last two books than "Hey, lets shoot at him for about two pages" and then realise it does not work and then the last Sister just stabbing herself to detonate the Ork Psyker. Why not, like you know, start the fight by detonating the Ork? Would have saved so much trouble. Felt really anti-climactic after the struggle both Vulkan and Koorland endured. And why was the Phalanx held in the reserve for this long? Both the previous invasions had the "lets throw everything at it" last resort vibe, but every single time they keep pulling some unknown resources from up their asses to throw at the Orks. 

Also, RIP Silent Sisterhood? Everyone dead now?

Edit: And they name dropped the Grey Knights so hard in the last book only to not even use them? 




Brother Lucian said:


> originally the conception of the series was going to have a DAoT link, where humanity attempts to use the Men of Iron to defeat the Beast. I think that got booted in favor of the impending DW release


Explains why they felt so hamfisted, rushed and forced in... So much potential lost. GW really needs to let BL runs its own course and not be tied up as just an advertising division for the miniatures.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Now that is what you call an anticlimax. The 2nd last book in the series was so rushed, it's blatantly obvious. Total disappointment.

Now about The Beheading, I really hope BL doesn't mess this one up. This is the one ive been waiting to read. 

1 Landing Zone. 1000 Astartes. 100 Eversors. Fun for the whole family


----------



## Brother Lucian

The Beheading has just become available for subscribers. Hopefully it can redeem the anticlimax of the previous book.

Edit: Finished the Beheading. Now this was an epic book, the politicizing pushed to eleven and rounding out the series with all remaining plot threads answered. I find it redeems the series after the disappointing 11th book. As well giving some immense suprises.

Veritus....now we know why he knew so many things.


Veritus was one of the four original founders of the Inquisition, all the way back to the Great Crusade. His true name being Kyril Sinderman.


The fate of the greenskins.


Eldrad Ulthran foresees Mag'Uruk Thraka as the next Beast.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Im finding Beheading to be much better written than the last couple of books. 

RIP to you know who. You will be missed after being used as a pointless plot device.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord Mephiston said:


> Im finding Beheading to be much better written than the last couple of books.
> 
> RIP to you know who. You will be missed after being used as a pointless plot device.


Guy Haley is a far better writter than several of the other contributors to TBA.

Also, the Beheading is available for general purchase now:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-beheading-ebook.html


Overall, I find the series to be a pretty good read with some rather compelling characters carrying the series. Wienand, Drakan Vangorich, Krule, Koorland and the cast of high lords. Yes, the series could have benefited from tighter editorial oversight with better planning. Like wtf, sending -3- assaults to Ullanor as probably the biggest sticking point?! Sure there was some miss and decidedly filler books with little to contribute. Echoes of the Long War and Watchers in Death being the most eregrious offenders. And the penultimate book Shadow of Ullanor for being horribly rushed. But I find the good books of the series is more than making up for the downers. In particular The Beast Must Die! and The Beheading stands out for me as topnotch lynchpin books carrying the series.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

BTW WTF man, Tigers are extinct in 40k !? Emperor failed at Wildlife Conservation. I guess it was a hard job preserving the human species already...


----------



## Brother Lucian

Regarding future orks..


It just struck me how Ghazkull might become the next Primork.

The Imperium was having the AdMech use repurposed ork technology to teleport Ullanor into a star. But Kubik was planning to cheat and sent Ullanor to another system so he could plunder it at will. Maximus Thane wanted Ullanor destroyed so it never would be forgotten and a place where Orkkind could rise just again. But then the Beheading happened....and I feel pretty confident that the Imperium never got around to scourge Ullanor properly in its new system, due to the fallout of the Beheading. So woe to the Imperium if Ghazkull ever finds Ullanor.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Holy sheeeeeeeeeeeeyat sonny jim. 

Veritas is Kyril Sindermann. KYRIL MOTHERLOVIN SINDERMANN !? THat old, annoying companion of that super-irritating Saint Keeler is one of the first founding Inquisitors !? Now that's what I call a revelation


----------



## Punkfish

Brother Lucian said:


> Regarding future orks..
> 
> 
> It just struck me how Ghazkull might become the next Primork.
> 
> The Imperium was having the AdMech use repurposed ork technology to teleport Ullanor into a star. But Kubik was planning to cheat and sent Ullanor to another system so he could plunder it at will. Maximus Thane wanted Ullanor destroyed so it never would be forgotten and a place where Orkkind could rise just again. But then the Beheading happened....and I feel pretty confident that the Imperium never got around to scourge Ullanor properly in its new system, due to the fallout of the Beheading. So woe to the Imperium if Ghazkull ever finds Ullanor.





Armageddon IS Ullanor. Go back to the planet moving sequence - they move a planet named Chosin in order to squeeze in Ullanor. Chosin is in the Armageddon sector.....


----------



## Brother Lucian

Punkfish said:


> Armageddon IS Ullanor. Go back to the planet moving sequence - they move a planet named Chosin in order to squeeze in Ullanor. Chosin is in the Armageddon sector.....


This makes a sickingly sort of sense now..


----------



## Punkfish

Brother Lucian said:


> This makes a sickingly sort of sense now..




Indeed - now I'm sure there's some other Easter eggs within the book that others will make the links to, but that particular one - as you say, makes a lot of sense.

Having read Shadowsword recently and now
The Beheading - Guy H really knows how to write an excellent 40k(ish) novel.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Punkfish said:


> Indeed - now I'm sure there's some other Easter eggs within the book that others will make the links to, but that particular one - as you say, makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Having read Shadowsword recently and now
> The Beheading - Guy H really knows how to write an excellent 40k(ish) novel.



So the Emperork and the Primorks seems inevitable now. Ghazkull is already becomming terrifyingly powerful with his abilities to command through the great green.
All because of Eldrad's meddling. The eldar was responsible for diverting Ghazkull to Armageddon.


----------



## forkmaster

Wow! Having not read the series myself, only following the comments here, I almost regret not doing so with the many twists and turn of it all. But with my limited time, I had to.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Really want to read the last two. But at this time of year, not a chance can my money go on books


----------



## Apfeljunge

i haven't read the series (or most of this thread for fear of spoilers), so forgive me if this has been answered before. Will we be able to buy these as paperbacks in the foreseeable future?


----------



## Lord of the Night

Finished The Beheading this morning and WOW!!! What a closer to the series, definitely my favourite entry in The Beast Arises as a whole. 



Veritus was Kyril Sindermann! Armageddon is Ullanor! The Imperial Fists were the Last Wall! So many twists!!


It's been quite a year of releases, and the Beast is definitely a step in the right direction for Black Library. But admittedly the series had more than a few cons to balance out its pros, which i'll talk about in a moment. But first the aspects of the novels that I enjoyed;

The story was most probably the best part of the series. What I love most about 30k/40k novels is that the authors often defy expectations and prove that just because you've read a Codex or lore book does not mean you actually know what happened, you know what the Imperium thinks happened. But one of the cornerstones of 40k is that we have lost a lot of knowledge, both through decay over time and intentional purging. The books reveal what really happened, and given that prior to this lore for the War of the Beast was limited to knowledge that it happened and nearly destroyed the Imperium, but with no wider detail. From that has come one of the most exploratory series that Black Library has ever published, an Imperium we could barely recognize, finally seeing Holy Terra in all it's decrepit and faded glory, Space Marines we'd never heard of before with no idea why, the Orks resurging as a threat to be scared of (and who the hell wasn't scared of them after seeing the Beast?!), and many other great twists and turns that I never saw coming. Though admittedly at times the story felt a bit staggered or replayed, the multiple invasions of the Beast's world being the prime culprit, the rest of the series made up for it by not being afraid to go big and epic on what happened, which I feel worked as it made the series so much more exciting and reinforced how massive this conflict really was. Not every novel managed that though and at times it did feel a little smaller than it should be, mainly when the Imperium was having trouble raising the men to fight the Orks (an empire with a million worlds has trouble finding bodies?), but other novels captured a galaxy on fire, a chaotic war with no front, and an Imperium desperately trying to survive against the greatest xenos threat the galaxy has ever seen. Individually most of the novels told a great story, however a few felt rather rushed, and no more so than the penultimate and final novels, both of which featured galaxy changing events that were relegated to far too few pages. The end of the Beast and the Beheading deserved so much more page-time, but the series didn't allow for that which I think is a real shame as it made the former feel abrupt, anti-climactic and rushed, and the latter while really good felt as though it would have been better both narrative, character and action wise if it had been allowed more time to be established, explored and dealt with in-universe. Really a lot of the issues in the series stem from this, the novels were just too short.

The characters were probably the aspect that suffered the most from the choice of storytelling, mainly it was very hard to get attached to any of the supporting cast since the series didn't split itself between various casts as the Heresy does, hence the series has the same protagonists who needed to have most of the focus. Koorland, Vangorich, Bohemond, Thane, Wienand, Kalkator, Zerberyn, Veritus and Esad Wire were the only characters that I really found myself attached to since they were the only characters that had consistent screen-time and importance across the series, whereas the rest of the cast came and went as they were needed, which was obviously how it had to be, but it didn't help me care about them. As the series went on this was compounded by more and more characters being introduced, either dying off so quickly that it was pointless to be invested in them, or not appearing enough to really capture attention, and the few that did capture my attention (like Kjarik Stormcrow or Eldon Urquidex) only got so much appearances before they were side-lined in favour of the main cast again. What could have resolved this issue is the same thing that would have made the entire series better, the novels needed to be longer. Giving each novel a bigger story through wider pages would have allowed supporting characters more time to be explored, and including a Dramatis Personae would have helped as some characters appeared so little that I forgot who they were, and in one character's case I couldn't remember if she was a woman or a man until I looked it up. The main cast of the series was written very well, and consistently across all twelve novels which was no mean feat considering that no author did more than two books, but the supporting cast really needed more pages in order to be realized better than they were.

The action varied across the series. Some of it, like the Battle of Ardamantua, the Beheading itself, the Battle of Caldera, all three sieges of the Beast's World (the battle aspects of it), and the Battle of Prax, were fantastic and really captured the strength of the Astartes, and the raw power of the Orks. However others such as the infamous Harlequins vs Custodes battle or the entirety of Watchers in Death failed to meet the same standards, the former being an utterly godawful portrayal of the Adeptus Custodes and feeling much like a love-letter to the Harlequins, and the latter shockingly portraying Deathwatch Kill-Teams as fleet-killing, army-destroying, superweapons that across the entire book do not actually lose a single man, as if suddenly Space Marines become invincible if they are in a four-man mixed-chapter squad. Mostly though the battle sequences were great, especially when certain characters became involved, one in particular whose portrayal in battle was strikingly superior to most depictions of this character's "group" in the other series where they are leading members of the cast as it made him feel epic and nearly unstoppable on the battlefield.

Pros
-Quicker Releases: The monthly release schedule was a great choice for this series as it means the fans don't have to wait so long for the next release, it also makes the cliffhanger endings more tolerable as we knew it wouldn't be long before we could see what happened next.
-Exploring Beyond 30k/40k: It's been one of my most fervent wishes that Black Library would delve into the rich tapestry of events that separate 30k from 40k. The War of the Beast and The Beheading are just two events in ten thousand years of history, many of which would make superb novels or series, things like the Reign of Blood, the Nova-Terra Interregnum, the Howling, the 21st Founding, the Plague of Unbelief, the Abyssal Crusades, the Occlusiad. The list goes on. The Beast Arises is proof that a series set beyond the borders of 40k and the Horus Heresy is not only possible, but would be received well.
-Multiple Authors: This supports the quicker releases but it also means that no one author is responsible for the series. While this can also be a con, to me it means that if one novel in the series is weaker, it doesn't necessarily mean the others will be. Or if you don't like the works of one author involved, you may enjoy the others. A series with multiple authors means that the series will have a wider audience than just fans of one particular author, like most of BL's trilogies and stand-alone novels do.
-Multiple Books: The Beast Arises would not have worked as a trilogy, that much is clear right from the start. There was simply too much to show and tell, both story and lore wise. It could never have reached Heresy series numbers, but neither could the conventional three book option have worked either. After finishing the series I think that twelve books was the right number, even if some of the events could have used reworking, the overall number of books in the series was just right, enough to tell the story but not too much that the story risked being stretched out beyond what it could offer. Hopefully we may start seeing more longer series like this, it worked for Gotrek and Felix, Gaunt's Ghosts, and hopefully it will work for ADB's Black Legion series.

Cons
-Too short: Ultimately this is the biggest flaw in the series, each book is just too short. Black Library have begun focusing on shorter novel releases, to their detriment I believe as 200-240 pages is just not enough to give the events in the series enough room to be told. Multiple books across the series felt rushed, important events felt abruptly ended or anti-climactic after so much build-up, and several events in the series really needed more detail, particularly the events in the final half of the last book which used an abrupt time-skip (which the author did not inform us of right away, rather leaving it to the narrative to non-chalantly say "Oh a century has passed by the way,") which meant we didn't get to see much of the events in question and a main character's descent into madness felt so abrupt that it felt forced (one chapter he's perfectly fine, the next he looks like King Aerys from Game of Thrones). If the Beast Arises has taught anything, it's that Black Library need to stick to 350+ pages for their novels, otherwise they lose a lot of punch.
-The Deathwatch: This was a mistake. It's very very clear from the release schedule, their abrupt entrance into the story and the poorly hidden product placement that the Deathwatch weren't meant to be in this story originally. Rumour around the internet is that the Men of Iron, the robots of 40k's ancient history, were supposed to be the weapon that the Imperium turned to to defeat the Orks, but the long-awaited Deathwatch release from Games Workshop came with orders from above to put the Deathwatch in the series to support the models. A very bad choice. It's fine to release introductory novels like the Legends of the Dark Millennium series and short stories to flog models, but hijacking a series like TBA to do it is a poor choice on GW's part. They wouldn't do that to the Heresy series (I hope to god) and they shouldn't have done it here.
-No Supporting Material: Rather disappointingly BL have chosen not to further TBA beyond the novels with short stories and audios, both of which could have really added to the series by exploring events beyond Captain Koorland and the other main casts perception, more galaxy vignette stories as featured in Predator, Prey would have been great to see, and the various missions of the Deathwatch would have made great short stories or audios (even if the group was shoehorned in), or perhaps something explaining why the Culexes weren't around for the war like one character asks. A lot of questions still float around in the series and side-material could have been used to answer it without distracting the main novels, but alas nothing. Feels like a real missed opportunity.


My final thought is that this was a fine series, damn enjoyable with many good characters and epic battle sequences, and quite a few twists and turns that left me slack-jawed, but one that would have benefited greatly from having longer novels and supporting short stories and audio-dramas to look at the wider parts of the war while leaving the main story to the novels. Hope to see more series like TBA in the future, but hopefully longer in novel-length.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Some absolutely great words on the series, LoTN. I agree wholeheartedly on what you say about the shameless product placement of the Deathwatch being the weakest part of the series, and feeling absolutely shoehorned in, when it couldve been done so much more interesting with the men of iron as rumored.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Just started The Beast Must Die. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.


----------



## Doelago

Just finished _The Beheading_, enjoyed all the revelations and such, but it felt way to short for everything it tried to squeeze in... They should have cut the Deathwatch product placements and instead expanded on the content of this one across a few books. A good read but way to short and felt like wasted potential. The ending especially felt like it was squeezed into way to few pages, not a satisfactory conclusion of the series at all for me.


----------



## Paceyjg

Doelago said:


> Just finished _The Beheading_ The ending especially felt like it was squeezed into way to few pages, not a satisfactory conclusion of the series at all for me.


This for me as well. Very disappointed with Chapter 16, which should and could have been the best written piece of the whole series.

The Beast Arises started well as a series, dropped way off and then did pick up in the end. Was it worth £120+? 

The novelty of the monthly book release faded rather quickly for me, and I cant say I will collect any other releases in the same fashion again...


----------

