# 6th Edition 40k ... Let The Backlash Begin!!!



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

Oh yes, the backlash to 6th Edition begins here. 

Have we even played a single game of 6th yet? ... nope ... but that isn't going to stop us yelling BROKEN at the top of our lungs.

This thread is for all our gripes and complaints about the new edition. I can already sense the festering anger at 'new' rules, and the envious eyes being cast at other codices.

Although in all seriousness, I genuinely think 6th edition should contain the tagline: _In the Grim Darkness of the Future, there is only, Profits!!!_

This edition is clearly about making more money than'cinematic moments'.

New Allies? "Oh that's a way to sell more models", new expensive flyer kits? "Oh lets buff their new rules HA HA HA!".

*
Anyway, my big complaint so far? ALLIES

*
Armies should have a MAXIMUM of one 'Battle Brother'. And you know what? Some armies shouldn't have any at all.

*Dark Eldar* - They should have NO battle Brothers. They get along with no-one, not even themselves for f*ck sake.

*Dark Angels* - The shady marines always keeping secrets and looking out for their traitor half, should have NO Battle Brothers.

*Necrons - *Correctly, have No Battle Brothers

*Orks* - Correctly, have NO Battle Brothers

*Tyranids* - Correctly, have NO Battle Brothers.


But what's this:

*Tau & Space Marines - *Battle Brothers?

*Eldar & Dark Eldar* - Battle Brothers?

*PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING IMPERIAL *- Yep, you guessed it, Battle Brothers.


As if we didn't have enough Imperial Codices and Armies on the tabletop, now you can mix and match AND get bonuses!

Lucky, lucky Imperials.

This has nothing of course to do with the fact that Imperials sell like Hot Cakes, whilst Xeno's get constantly kicked to the curb.

Honestly, 6th has been here two minutes and I'm already annoyed. And I haven't even begun to think about flyers yet, I think the models are fuggly and don't sit well next to others on the tabletop. Bring back that old seperate game Battlefleet Gothic that was fought in space for the flyers battles.

Call me a misrable old git if you want(I am!), but be honest and get it off of your chests;

*What Complaints do you have about 6th edition so far?*


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

What have they done to my lovely characters?!? - Kharn, Ezekiel to name a couple.
Also, everyone and their mum taking Allies purely for cheese.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Other then the ones I have already mentioned else where....hmmmm.

Well the fact that this entire damn edition favor's shooting kinda sucks. Snap fire, over watch, snipers. Hell the only CC combos that seem to work now do so because they are from new books (Necron) or aren't really CC (Vector strike).


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Rules-wise:

-Pinned/gone to ground unis should not get overwatch.

-That same dumb WS table as before? Cc is weak enough now without it making a sky-high WS mostly pointless. 

-Dangerous terrain checks for skimmers while turbo-boosting on all phases. Now you get to roll 4 times in a single turn for a single vehicle! You though you were zooming around, but you're actually just stopping and going. 

-Power axes are dumb. Incredibly dumb. Mauls even more so. 

-Rolling Psyker powers. I dared dream Gw was moving away from random stuff, but it was just wishful thinking. 

-The Warlod tables are poorly done. You can get powers that will never apply (got bonus for ruins in a forestedt map? Got Defensive Master on your offensive HQ or vice-versa? Got Acute senses when you have no outflankers? Too bad!

Army-wise:

-Daemon Princes fly and are MCs but are not Flying MCs. Unless they come from the Chas Daemons codex. Logic for the win. 

-Abaddon. Warmaster of Chaos. Beared of mighty daemon sword Crach'nyen. Bitch to any and all terminators. 

-Khorne-marked regular CSM now own Khorne Berserkers. Funny how things turn out.

-Kharn, from best to worst chaos HQ. to befair, i was expecting that after the Warptyime nerf. If CSM player use it, it's not going to last long. 

-Wyches are pointless now. 

-Gaps in describing special weapons: Agonizers, Vect's scepter.

-Not giving an S value to splinter weaposn to determine re-rolls against weaker enemies (gaunts, gretchin, guard)

-Venomspam is now the officially reward way to play DE.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

People bitching about rules they haven't even see in print (much less played at all).

That's my only complaint. Oh, and it didn't come sooner. Like before I started dozing off during games of 5th.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

How about that my damned book didn't turn up today? that I have to wait till Monday to even find out what I do and don't like about the game when I could have gone to a store if I knew that pre-order meant "later than you could have got it" - delivery time sucks it seems

Looking forward to it though


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Allies are not going to be a autowin, don't have issues with it. I keep trying to work out a list with them but it just eats too much of what I take in my own lists to use them that it is a horrid tradeoff. 

Flyers are going to be a bitch to shoot down until they release more models with Anit Air. 

Termies seem to be fairly strong as ppl suggested but again not worried. I will just shoot the shit of them. 

My only issue is the fact that if this had come out a year ago my purchases would have been vastly different


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sephyr said:


> Rules-wise:
> 
> -Khorne-marked regular CSM now own Khorne Berserkers. Funny how things turn out.


How come?


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Same number of attacks. Can use flamers, meltas and other better weapons before charging or for overwatch. Same Initiative on the charge. Can be enhanced by Fabius Bile. Cheaper.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Gets Hot - on vehicles. Smeg right off!

Alice


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Tau Target Locks now have no Effect.
Stealth suits get a buff, but still aren't worth taking.
I can't garuntee Crisis suits can leave LOS. I know on average it's a buff, but Idont want a random chance. I want a garuntee that I can keep suits safe.
Firewarriors can move and shoot, but so can marines. I'm going to have fun trying to outrun them on a 4x6 table.


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## Shas (May 6, 2012)

D-A-C said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> 
> *Tau & Space Marines - *Battle Brothers?


Well given the tau and the ultramarines worked together to fight the tyranids, it's hardly a shock. 

I think we need to stop thinking of Allies as "friends" and look at it more as "at this time, in this moment, it's better we work together"


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

I don't mind allies, I think sensible people will get some very interesting combinations that make sense from a gaming and fluff standpoint........however said players are fictional, utterly and completely, allies WILL and already is being abused by assholes (your average 40k gamer)


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## Shas (May 6, 2012)

Though I do think we should be allowed to put control collars on tyranids and use them


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## kaboot (Jan 4, 2012)

Shas said:


> Though I do think we should be allowed to put control collars on tyranids and use them


As a new tyranid player, this is what i hav eto say to that :ireful2:

And I dont have to worry about allies, so Im in the clear. Whats starting to bug me (no pun intended), is everyone complaining all the time (me included). If you dont like what they are doing, STOP PLAYING. No one is forcing you to buy expensive models and play a game system you dont like. 

Ive decided to give it a good chance before making up my mind. So suck it up! And if you still dont like it, re-make this thread in a month!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Honestly, I have no problems yet other axes sucking metric fuck.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Of the 3 games of 6th i've played so far since thursday i've enjoyed each one of them more than 5th. I agree with the cinematic and its actually a bit more tactical now. 

Sick and tired of hearing people complain about it. If you dont like it dot play it. Dont just moan about it on the internet but still spend money on it and play and all the while bitchig and moaning about it over and over again. Things change, deal with it!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

D-A-C said:


> *snip*


I'm glad to see logic and common sense is still the method than the internet uses for evaluating things rather than knee jerk reactions.

_Oh wait_.

I'll be over here playing my game with my little army of metal Sisters and be deciding how I feel the game feels to me rather than jumping to conclusions without seeing how things change.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Honestly, I have no problems yet other axes sucking metric fuck.


Matt ward really hates axes obviously...but no doubt he will faq them getting a bonus +5 initiative when used by ultramarines (the greatest chapter evarrrrrr) against raven guard and sisters of battle, and if used by grey knights for the new finecast nemesis force axes conversion pack.


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## crisissuitguy (Jan 8, 2010)

That's cool, base power weapons are AP 3. Now that bugs me _a lot_


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

crisissuitguy said:


> That's cool, base power weapons are AP 3. Now that bugs me _a lot_


Why, you're army isn't packed full of Terminators? Too bad. :laugh:


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

SGMAlice said:


> Gets Hot - on vehicles. Smeg right off!
> 
> Alice


I agree..makes zero sense except for the whole 'GW loves its poster boy SM's so much, so must go to great lengths to protect them' - yea I know I'm ranting:biggrin:

My Executioners were my favourite and most effective Russ, but will now go sponsonless more often than not....but then again I have my Demolishers for a mobile short-ranged Russ.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Why, you're army isn't packed full of Terminators? Too bad. :laugh:


Mine is packed full of girls with guns and invulnerable saves!*

*Invulnerable saves not guaranteed to be helpful. Making more than one of these invulnerable saves in a game is likely to annoy your opponent. Making more than one in a turn is likely to outright anger them for your free "cheese".



HOBO said:


> I agree..makes zero sense except for the whole 'GW loves its poster boy SM's so much, so must go to great lengths to protect them' - yea I know I'm ranting
> 
> My Executioners were my favourite and most effective Russ, but will now go sponsonless more often than not....but then again I have my Demolishers for a mobile short-ranged Russ.


Las/Plas Razorbacks are a common sight in most tournaments these days. And Plasma Cannons come free on Storm Ravens. And they're even available to some Dreadnoughts Those are all Marine vehicles that get nerfed by this too. So how is this exactly a Guardsmen only nerf (who also take a penalty on their Sentinels with Plasma Cannons)?


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

My one and only complaint;

GW are arseholes for releasing 6th edition over the July 1st weekend!!!:ireful2:


Thanks alot for making all of us Canucks wait extra long for delivery times jerks! Especially since the world's 3rd largest country only has a bare handfull of stores to get pre-orders shipped to...


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> Mine is packed full of girls with guns and invulnerable saves!*
> 
> *Invulnerable saves not guaranteed to be helpful. Making more than one of these invulnerable saves in a game is likely to annoy your opponent. Making more than one in a turn is likely to outright anger them for your free "cheese".


Mine too. I tried to tank shock an Eldar Avatar one game in hopes he would DoG and I could make my ++6 on the rhino and run him over but the Emperor didn't love me that day. 

And I guess this finally seals the discussion of Psyflmen vs Plasdreds.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Kharn the Betrayer now being about as useful as a motorcycle ash-tray!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Mine too. I tried to tank shock an Eldar Avatar one game in hopes he would DoG and I could make my ++6 on the rhino and run him over but the Emperor didn't love me that day.
> 
> And I guess this finally seals the discussion of Psyflmen vs Plasdreds.


I had a Rhino kill a Trygon (the armor pen roll was too low to pen the Rhino), and then the next week killed a Nob (while acting as a way to force a large mob of boyz into a pile to hit with a heavy flamer template) thanks to the Invul save.

It's actually a rule that the more annoying it is for my opponent the more I'll make that save. And so far it's pretty true.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Zion said:


> Las/Plas Razorbacks are a common sight in most tournaments these days. And Plasma Cannons come free on Storm Ravens. And they're even available to some Dreadnoughts Those are all Marine vehicles that get nerfed by this too. So how is this exactly a Guardsmen only nerf (who also take a penalty on their Sentinels with Plasma Cannons)?


Did you not notice the 'rant' bit and the smiley...and who said it was only an IG nerf (other than you), but my Post was about a specific unit that just happens to be an IG one, plus I know Alice would be equally stressed by this, seen as she's a treadie as well? 

I also play vanilla SM so I know all about that side of the gets hot issue with them.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

HOBO said:


> Did you not notice the 'rant' bit and the smiley...and who said it was only an IG nerf (other than you), but my Post was about a specific unit that just happens to be an IG one, plus I know Alice would be equally stressed by this, seen as she's a treadie as well?
> 
> I also play vanilla SM so I know all about that side of the gets hot issue with them.


I did miss the smiley. I do read a lot of legitimately serious posts about how GW does everything they can to nerf anything that isn't Marines all the time, often ignoring that the same rules nerfing them also hurt other armies. Even ignoring that the very rule also *overly dramatic gasp* hurts Space Marines! *DRAMATIC STINGER!*

Needless to say, I'm probably on autopilot these days pointing out the things people miss or ignore when they try to instigate bitch fests about whatever random thing they're complaining about this week.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Zion said:


> Needless to say, I'm probably on autopilot these days pointing out the things people miss or ignore when they try to instigate bitch fests about whatever random thing they're complaining about this week.


I did notice your exemplary work(load) in the Rumours Forum, but I'm not into rumours really. 

That said, I feel for the SoB crowd, and was into them myself for a long time 
(2500 pts I think)...so you'd be in a bit of pain yourself right now I guess.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

HOBO said:


> I did notice your exemplary work(load) in the Rumours Forum, but I'm not into rumours really.
> 
> That said, I feel for the SoB crowd, and was into them myself for a long time
> (2500 pts I think)...so you'd be in a bit of pain yourself right now I guess.


Keeping up on the rumors has pretty much killed a large portion of my drive to participate more in the rest of the forum. I think most of my last 200 or so posts have been in the rumor threads to be honest.

The Sisters don't look that awesome right now, but with the rulebook in hand for less than a day I don't think I'm ready to call it any one way just yet. In all honesty I've been thinking about shelving my Sisters for a while in favor of another army just because of the amount of negativity that surrounds the army (much of which is other Sisters players). But we'll see. I'm not jumping off into any big projects at the moment. Even the projects I had kicking around on my desk have stalled for the moment.

I will be easing off of 40K for the next month or so. I want to feel out the new edition before I over commit to something that in the end I don't like (referencing a new army more than the edition before anyone asks). 

Also before anyone mentions that it looks like the Marine Edition: everyone said that about 5th Edition and I murdered a lot of Marine armies with an army of girls. :biggrin: You can be sure I'll find that spark again and find a new way to murder a lot of Marine armies all over again.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I think most people are being overly sensitive about the nerfs in this edition, but in all honesty some units and IC's have been ruined by this edition, and outright removing the purpose of a unit is something people should be concerned about.

Overall most armies have come out ok in this edition and most likly no army is invalidated by the change. However when people are forced to shelf units because they no longer do anything of real use then I think people have a right to vent. Then move on to try and exploit the broken things that have been given to other units (Unit's that the specific gamer may hate or not want to use). 

Yet I am still glad that they gave a true overhaul of the game rather then a pointless rewording.


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

Black Templars were completely ignored in the book while the other four alternate Marine chapters got the spotlight. Now that is bullshit.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

d3m01iti0n said:


> Black Templars were completely ignored in the book while the other four alternate Marine chapters got the spotlight. Now that is bullshit.


Grey Knights got a small paragraph under "Space Marines". That's hardly a spotlight. Heck the Sisters got more in the book than Grey Knights did.

EDIT: Something that just crossed my mind: Black Templars might not have gotten anything to leave more flexibility in what they want to do with them. I don't mean add Psykers or anything, but with how GW likes to overhaul things (especially older books they bring into the current edition) putting material into the main rulebook that would be invalidated within a year or so would be silly. But that's just a thought, not a fact.


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## The Golden Sons (Apr 15, 2012)

I, for one, cannot wait to see the inevitable terminator armies going up against each other and effectively be fighting with whiffle bats.

What's that, we both got 2+ save against _all_ of the wounds inflicted? Even against abaddons? Well ain't that dandy.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> -Not giving an S value to splinter weaposn to determine re-rolls against weaker enemies (gaunts, gretchin, guard)


I thought I read somewhere that poisoned weapons just wound on a fixed amount, and that they no longer get rerolls to wound like in 5th?



> I think most people are being overly sensitive about the nerfs in this edition, but in all honesty some units and IC's have been ruined by this edition, and outright removing the purpose of a unit is something people should be concerned about.


Truth. Chaos especially. Khorne berserkers, kharn/typhus/abbadon to name a few.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Psshhhh berzerkers are so yesterday. Chosen are the wave of the future...WAVE OF THE FUTURE I SAY! If you don't know what I am talking about look up the part about grenades and melta bombs, and the section about flamers on overwatch.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> I thought I read somewhere that poisoned weapons just wound on a fixed amount, and that they no longer get rerolls to wound like in 5th?


Poisoned weapons in 6th use the fixed number unless you'd be able to wound on a lower number. And if you're in melee and your strength is equal to or greater than the target's toughness you get to reroll.

In short: Trygon with Toxin Sacs get to a re-rollable 2+ to wound in combat against Marines.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Golden Sons said:


> I, for one, cannot wait to see the inevitable terminator armies going up against each other and effectively be fighting with whiffle bats.
> 
> What's that, we both got 2+ save against _all_ of the wounds inflicted? Even against abaddons? Well ain't that dandy.


But, but the _overwhelming_ majority of Terminators use Power Fists. Those that don't use Force Weapons and are thus righteously raped by any Terminator that gets through the Psycannon fire, because rends are still killing Terminators. 

Alternatively, they are Chaos Terminators, and because GW are clever they all have Power Axes, so ignore saves anyway, apart from the dudes with Power Fists, the dudes with Lightning Claws they nicked from a considerable number of Chaos Lord boxes, that one dude with a tentacle (although I wouldn't be surprised if nobody on this earth had used that piece) and the dude who has a Shock Maul, who goes and cries in the corner because his Thunder Hammer is out of battery.

Warscythes go before Axes, Fists and Hammers, yet still have Strength 7 and AP1, rolling 2D6 for armour penetration. In sixth edition 40k, Necrons fuck you!

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah but all those MC's should keep those pesky necron lords in check. In my last game I had one biting my DP's ass so I had him smash attack the gimp into a fine matalic mist.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

d3m01iti0n said:


> Black Templars were completely ignored in the book while the other four alternate Marine chapters got the spotlight. Now that is bullshit.


That's your fault for liking a chapter that wishes it was ultratards but can't be because your gene seed comes from poor stock and your apparantly a dying chapter, so says ward


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

I don't like the "our weapons are useless" rule = bad for sentinel tarpits (and i liked them). Hull Points are horrible when combined with Imotekh, necrons and my mech IG army (i refer to Imotekh as the "troll-lord" because of his zappy lightning and nightfighting). Definitely puts my vendetta top of the production queue, because flyers will have a significant bonus, at least in the early stages of this edition, due to a lack of massed skyfire weapons (or Multi-shot High S weapons to compensate). Full mech armies probably have suffered the least change, but hybrid mech armies are probably weaker, as they don't have the saturation provided by mechspam lists. 

This ruleset seems to play well into the hands of Matt Ward Codices, (GREY KNIGHT PALADINS ARE DA BESTEST EVA!), but less so in older codices, which were carried through 5th to an extent (like Tau with Disruption Pods - which have been nerfed now) on a wing.

Maybe i will have to abandon the Cadian 9th Mechanised Infantry Regiment, and go for Cadian 9th Light Infantry Regiment (IG infantry has been buffed with Rapid Fire changes) - and that does not please me, given i wanted to be a mehtal bawks player all along.

Quick query: Can you overwatch with rapid fire weapons? If not, then that's 2 points to GK


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

HOBO said:


> I agree..makes zero sense except for the whole 'GW loves its poster boy SM's so much, so must go to great lengths to protect them' - yea I know I'm ranting:biggrin:
> 
> My Executioners were my favourite and most effective Russ, but will now go sponsonless more often than not....but then again I have my Demolishers for a mobile short-ranged Russ.


God knows why they screw with things that are fine as they are but i suppose GW have their reasons. My complaint is really based on the general idea that, for the most part, Vehicles are Massive Armoured Behemoths with plenty more space, than a SM's Back Pack or a Sentinels already over burdened frame, for just such things as coolant systems.

My poor Executioners... :cray:




Zion said:


> I did miss the smiley. I do read a lot of legitimately serious posts about how GW does everything they can to nerf anything that isn't Marines all the time, often ignoring that the same rules nerfing them also hurt other armies. Even ignoring that the very rule also *overly dramatic gasp* hurts Space Marines! *DRAMATIC STINGER!*
> 
> Needless to say, I'm probably on autopilot these days pointing out the things people miss or ignore when they try to instigate bitch fests about whatever random thing they're complaining about this week.


Whining is a standard which we as a species, seek to out do at every turn of the page, don't take it so seriously 

You also missed the Deimos Pattern Predator Executioner 

Alice


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## TechBaNe (Mar 8, 2011)

My biggest complaint? My Gamer's Edition arrived without the satchel or dice! So basically I payed $168 for what was $90. Thanks a lot GW, you'll definitely be hearing from me soon.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The only things that you can't overwatch are blast and heavy weapons.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd recommend everyone table complaints about the Chaos Marine army until the codex comes out later this summer. 

I think that the FAQ by and large represents a stop-gap until the new codex is out. I would further wager that Kharn and Abaddon and the other chaos characters, daemon princes, etc. will get a rewrite in the codex.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> The only things that you can't overwatch are blast and heavy weapons.


Pretty sure heavy weapons can overwatch


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

It's funny, everyone seems to be majorly pissed off by the CC nerfing, I think its good personally. Not just because I collect Tau. I am considering bringing out my CSM now, as superior firepower owns the field. People seem to forget that bolters really are fairly good and that MEQ's are all pretty solid at shooting.

On a slightly unrelated note, My counts-as Sicarius has a power axe to count as his tempest blade, does that still work the same?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I can't complain about anything. I don't like Allies, cause it makes people search for "allied rescues" for the weaknesses of their army, rather than building within their own codex. The rest can wait until I get some games in. I'm rather looking forward to this new edition of Warhammer Fantasy. Er, 40k. It's still 40k right? Even with all the fantasy pieces...


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

HULL POINTS :angry:

I hate it so far. Read all the rules and play-tested a game last night. My eldar skimmer army got the shaft IMO. Holo-fields are practically useless since everything has died from hull point damage, completely negating the benefits of holo-fields...DUMB! 

On another note, a carnivorous forest killed 2 dreadnoughts in the game. My opponent walked in, we rolled the random forest type, d3 S5 hits each. One took 3 glancing hits and died, the other took 2 glancing hits... Meanwhile a full squad of marines passes through un-harmed... This is rediculous! Not a fan for vehicles at all! My game store is strongly considering house ruling a new vehicle damage system. More play testing will decide.

I also HATE how the best you can have in assualt for a vehicle is WS1!? So all of my fast skimmers can be moving 30" a turn and my opponent needs 3+ to hit!!!! I'm sorry, but WTF? :ireful2:

Deep breath, the rest of the book is fantastic and I love everything in it.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

OMG!!! this comes to mind. "people will complain if their ass is on fire....and then complain if you piss on them to put it out".
guys its a game.....is the point to win???? i love the direction. it certainly beats having to just sit and watch a slow ass player take forever, at least now your involved the whole game.
just embrace the changes, deal with it, move on have fun


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Desolatemm said:


> HULL POINTS :angry:
> 
> I hate it so far. Read all the rules and play-tested a game last night. My eldar skimmer army got the shaft IMO. Holo-fields are practically useless since everything has died from hull point damage, completely negating the benefits of holo-fields...DUMB!


So you hate it because a 6th Edition Mechanic doesn't work with your 4th Edition Codex? Yes it sucks now, but your book is two editions old. And Hull Points make ALL transports less likely to survive a whole game.



Desolatemm said:


> On another note, a carnivorous forest killed 2 dreadnoughts in the game. My opponent walked in, we rolled the random forest type, d3 S5 hits each. One took 3 glancing hits and died, the other took 2 glancing hits... Meanwhile a full squad of marines passes through un-harmed... This is rediculous! Not a fan for vehicles at all! My game store is strongly considering house ruling a new vehicle damage system. More play testing will decide.


It's Mysterious terrain. It's going to be random and do random things. Next game that forest could be something else completely. OR you could play without it.



Desolatemm said:


> I also HATE how the best you can have in assualt for a vehicle is WS1!? So all of my fast skimmers can be moving 30" a turn and my opponent needs 3+ to hit!!!! I'm sorry, but WTF? :ireful2:


 Superior movement, Jink Rule protects them from fire (and it's better when you move faster too) and you're mad that it gets hit on 3s? If you're concerned about being hit after going flat out you need to find a better spot to stop then right in front of your opponent inside of charge range. This is going to make you more tactical with your vehicle rather than assuming it'll be able to survive combat because you moved really fast and then STOPPED right in front of someone.



Desolatemm said:


> Deep breath, the rest of the book is fantastic and I love everything in it.


Overall 6th is a more solid game. I just hope we see some rules for the armies without flyers, Flying MCs (Vector Strike!) or Skyfire weapons, at least as a patch until they get updated. Right now the worst thing my Sisters could face is a Valkyrie heavy army and that kind of annoys me.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I really dont like having to roll to see how far I can charge. It makes assaulting unpredictable and for BT and any CC based army that is....terrible. Assaulting cant really be applied to someone's strategy very well at all. The game has greatly catered towards shooting, rather than assaults being the main way to kill enemy models. 

I think vehicles needed to be nerfed some but this seems a bit extreme.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

You can premeasure everything, that alone will help with assaults. Mech was not that nerfed everyone is just wigging out because OMGZOR CHANGE!!!!


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Just as an aside, i have worked out an "ultimate UBERCHEEZ" list. Imperial Guard with 1HQ 2 Troops of your choice, and no less than 18 Vendettas/Valkyries, or 18 Squadronable Tanks. Troll on . I don't like the dual FOC >2k (it should be at least >2.5k, as at this point you're nearly playing apocalypse), as it allows you to have truly filthy combinations, and could put me off if my local gaming community use this rule to spam elites/ heavy support.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

You need 2 hq and 4 troops for the 2 foc thing.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Was considering running a vyper squadron and a war walker squadron for laughs in 
5th - with scatter lasers + shuricannons it worked out about 45 str 6 shots per turn. 

If I use them now, I'll just cry as my 200pts+ vyper squad are downed by a squad of 10 rapid firing marines in 1 turn... Booo! 

And the 180 pts of war walkers... repeat to finsh.

Holo field = 35pt way to survive one shot. 2nd shot = no more hull points...

Still I survived 5th without them, so they just might be on hold until the new eldar codex...

Still - Wraithguard can glance ANYTHING to death in one turn now, so it's swings and roundabouts


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## TheFiercestCreature (Dec 20, 2010)

Just a quick question, I'm an Eldar player who regularly faces off against a Draigowing style Grey Knights army. As far as I can see, pretty much all of my options for beating this have disappeared. 

Banshees, obv AP3, now useless.
Firedragons in a waveserpent, chewed up by Psy dreads.
Falcons with brightlances, again glanced to death.

I'm not willing to spend loads on more wraithguard, and I can't really see a ray of sunshine until the new codex. Anyone care to help?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I'm going for wraithlords for cc - the rest of the heavy support - prisms,falcons,spinners - all get glanced to death.
On the plus side, I think artillery is better now - so d-cannons may be more viable - wounds on a 2+, ap 2. But still silly short range (24")

Edit:coversave now being gained for 25% of the model, means that wraithlords will get cover from just being up to their knees again


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

The thing that is pissing me off is how badly they fucked over Orks.

Kan Walls had their balls chopped off... Killa Kans having 2 Hull Points, and the KFF only granting them a 5+ cover means they won't survive long enough to do anything.

Boyz on foot are even less likely to make into to combat seeing how we have to take wounds off the front ranks, and if we manage to charge Overwatch stands a good chance to stop it. Nobz have to hide in the back if they want a chance to see Combat (Witch goes against all Ork Fluff) On and the FC nerf means Orks never strike before anyone (save for Necrons) so they just get killed before they can strike their blows.

Oh and thanks GW for the sweet new models! I really love them! To bad my FLGS ran out of the WD before I could get a copy, you don't have any for sale online, and you haven't released a PDF with the rules. So even if I bought them I CAN'T FREAKING USE THEM.

In short I need to get my hands on 45 Lootas and at lest 30 more shoota boyz before I will play my Orks again.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

fatmantis said:


> guys its a game.....is the point to win????


When people design a tournament list for competitive play then find its now a handicap to take said list and have to drop another 600% to build a new one or 300-400 to adjust a old tournament army then yes the entire point is to win.

Fact is there is a large part of the community interested in competitive play. To ignore them and assume everyone views 40k as a simple leisurely game is incredibly over simplifying things.

However armies lists are often broken by edition changes, no big change. Fact is it takes a lot to ruin casual play something greatly enhanced by this edition, but when competitive lists lay on the razors edge of the best of the best lists tournament list often find themselves shelved in a edition change, something that always piss people off, and they have a right to be pissed off but its not going to change the trend.

Personally despite what people are saying now about making mech less powerful and enhancing gun lines this edition has some insane room for abuse at the highest levels of play, and I honestly think when people get a head around this edition the gap between a tournament list and a casual list for friends will be sickening to the point that the tournament crowed will have to weaken their lists to even consider playing with casual gamers.

Also despite claims about making things more cinematic I expect more then a few games this edition are going to break into boring back and forth fire exchanges with even marines considering shooting at guardsmen allowing them to take their 5+ cover in favor of the possibility of failing charges and deadly terrain or overwatch from vets with plasma. Just yesterday I beat a 2000pt orc list and only lost around 200pts of marines (2 failed charges allowed me to kill 700pts of orc boys in a single turn, and he was only 5-6" away. Fact is there is no random roll that will stop 1-3 units from exploiting a shooting phase, but a unusually low assault roll will see entire units of orc boys or gaunts get vaporized. Note: marines are hurt by this a lot less then other assault armies as they can still hide behind a 3+.

Does this break the game? No it just changes the douche bag tactics people will use to curb stomp new gamers and certain armies, and will mean that only the best generals will be able to utilize CC armies competitively. Guard and tau are now the best armies for new gamers while orcs nids and others will become the bitter preserve of vets.


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## TheFiercestCreature (Dec 20, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> I'm going for wraithlords for cc - the rest of the heavy support - prisms,falcons,spinners - all get glanced to death.
> On the plus side, I think artillery is better now - so d-cannons may be more viable - wounds on a 2+, ap 2. But still silly short range (24")
> 
> Edit:coversave now being gained for 25% of the model, means that wraithlords will get cover from just being up to their knees again


Can't really use wraithlords, bloody force weapons put paid to that. I know Runes of Warding used to make them less likely to kill, not sure about whether this is still the case. Either way it now seems that vs. Draigowing we may as well just not bother


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Nurseries have less crying than this


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Yes - but I imagine we'll get less funny looks if we keep playing in shops n stuff and moan on the internet, rather than playing in nurseries...


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Most GW stores are nurseries


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Most GW stores are nurseries


QFT


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Most GW stores are nurseries


This is the best thing you have ever posted.


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## TheFiercestCreature (Dec 20, 2010)

Pretty much, but the whole world loves a good whinge.


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

Sakura_ninja said:


> That's your fault for liking a chapter that wishes it was ultratards but can't be because your gene seed comes from poor stock and your apparantly a dying chapter, so says ward


 
LOL except our fluff says we outnumber the other Chapters and if BT we to unite they would be "nigh unstoppable". Ward dont like us because we use the Codex Astartes as toilet paper. 

Im pretty sure there are plenty of ppl who invested their money and time into BT and are just as pissed as I am.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

I got in two 3,000 point games in this weekend. I played 2v2 in the first game foot IG and mech black templar against my mechcrons and a 4 tervigon list.

Tyranids ran head to head against the templars while I killed all the heavy support stuff. I took a doomscythe, it was epic. we won a pretty strong game. We called it on turn 4, I think we would have had all 6 objectives. We ended up rolling the mission were you have to play on the short table edges. This made the game really wonky, but thank god, I had fliers so I was able to move up the table really fast with them.

Second game I played with mech eldar with the same tyranid ally against a really bad grey knights list with terminators and long fangs and the same imperial guard list.

We had to quit on turn 5 because of time, but I'm almost positive we were going to table them. With my fire prisms, I killed all the long fangs on turn 1. That 5+ cover same isn't that great, and when i'm shooting 5 wave serpents with 2 splinter cannons after moving 12 (this is awesome) it's gonna be tough to survive with a horde army. Also, with the stunned result not coming up very often anymore, there is really no reason to ever take soul stones on your serpents. Say hello to almost 100 extra points!

There was one thing that I gaffed really badly. I tank shocked a unit of IG with my farseer's serpent and then the IGs completely surrounded the serpent and killed the shit out of it with frag grenades. Now that they hit on 3+ and glance on 6, the 20 frag grenades were certain death to my transport, and since they completely surrounded it, I couldn't emergency disembark so I lost my farseer. Amusingly, the farseer and the 5 dire avengers that were with him were the only eldar to die in the whole game.

There were also a couple of times I forgot that you could now hit 2 tanks with a single demolisher cannon, but eldar tanks are still resilient. 

Not being able to cast fortune out of the wave serpent sucked huge ass. But causing auto wound perils on all of the rune priests was godlike. It protected all of the tervigons from jaws for the entire game.

We had to rules source constantly for the entire first game and it took us 6 hours to play 3 turns. The second game we put a 40 minute timer on the turn and anything that couldn't happen in that time didn't happen and it sped the game up alot, although with the 4 tervigons we still kept creeping up on the 40 minute timer.

Now, I still haven't played with the allies rules, or the fortifications, so they may still suck huge ass, but I would guess not. The 6th ruleset is much better than the fifth. It's seriously a lot, A LOT, more fun. The only thing i'm still worried about is whether or not the fortress of redemption will fuck up the game. We'll have to see.

We were going to play one more game at 2,000 points but we didn't have the time. We were going to see how that 6 long fangs list worked out. I imagine it would have been pretty awesome.


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## Wingman (Jun 27, 2011)

At first I was worried about about the hull points rule in relation to haywire weapons but I don't think it will be a massive issue. People will just need to protect their vehicles a little more now. At least transports seem to be getting cheaper with new codexes.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

d3m01iti0n said:


> LOL except our fluff says we outnumber the other Chapters and if BT we to unite they would be "nigh unstoppable". Ward dont like us because we use the Codex Astartes as toilet paper.
> 
> Im pretty sure there are plenty of ppl who invested their money and time into BT and are just as pissed as I am.


Sounds like heresy to me, I better go kill a girl, cover my body in her blood, get some necron aid and purge you for saying such things 

I do like how straken is now more powerful than mephiston when killing terminators 
Meph: ap3
Iron hand: ignores armour saves
HAHAHA


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Wingman said:


> At first I was worried about about the hull points rule in relation to haywire weapons but I don't think it will be a massive issue. People will just need to protect their vehicles a little more now. At least transports seem to be getting cheaper with new codexes.


It has made Swooping Hawks really useful now. Jump Infantry which will hit vehicles on 3's and Glance on a 2+.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

So, now that people have a few (or more) games of 6th under their belts, how are you finding this edition?

*Specifically, what don't you like about it?*

I know that's a negative attitude, but its just in keeping with my OP.

I'll be playing my first game (or two) next Saturday, so I'll be posting some thoughts.

In the meantime, how are you all finding it?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I played a game with my DW earlier and just found myself EVEN HARDER TO KILL.

I will praise the buff to TEQs.

I will however shoot down the terrain business as I simply just camped out.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I played my first 6th on the weekend.
It was called pop goes the rhino. Vehicles die quickly. Dark reapers = 10 missile's (8 reaper + 2 x eml from the exarch). Glances stuff quickly. Before, a vehicle could easily take that if I rolled poorly on the damage table, but now 3 glances = dead
Psychic powers have potential, but my eldar are keeping their codex one's from now on. Rolling dice to choose is too random for me.
Even took swooping hawks, although they didn't do anything. I spent 4 turns using cover to sneak up on a predator annihilator. Which then drove off.
I feel 2 force organisation charts is open to abuse. I took max heavy support and camped - 3 wraithlords and 2 fire prisms etc
Although - I finally took some Dark reapers and Maugan-Ra as I could fit them in without compromising my armies psychic and shooting abilities. 
TEQ are good, but almost everything in my army was AP1/AP2 (bar the units I mentioned) so I'm not suprised that I didn't find that they were overpowered.
Good (in 2000+pts)
The 2 FOC charts - I could take units that haven't seen the light of day in 5 years.
Bad (2000+pts)
The 2 FOC charts are open to abuse. Vehicles die fast. Psychic powers are too random for me. I agree with Orochi about terrain as well - I camped too.
Assault distances - My opponant tried to assault one of my wave serpents - rolled a double 1.


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## ShadowMatt (Sep 9, 2008)

Random assault + overwatch + hullpoints = many dead Blood Angels IMO. I haven't seen the full rules yet, but it seems to me DC and Assault marines will die in droves before they even see combat.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

ShadowMatt said:


> Random assault + overwatch + hullpoints = many dead Blood Angels IMO. I haven't seen the full rules yet, but it seems to me DC and Assault marines will die in droves before they even see combat.


Yes but at least death company will go where you want them to!  Honestly though, I think I have only suffered 1 overwatch unsaved wound in the four games I've played so far. Altho those 3 failed charges annoyed me a little bit! But one of my opponents failed EVERY single charge in one game. He was not happy! But he saw the funny side of it, as did I with mine. And i'll say it again.. still much more fun overall than 5th


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

ShadowMatt said:


> Random assault + overwatch + hullpoints = many dead Blood Angels IMO


Bloody Hell, it might force angel players to use tactics other than spam and charge...but best not get too hopeful on that.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Many of them will have to utilize more of their codex is all. BA is one of the codexs that took a hit to the way they play. Lots of hingepin rules for their builds changed. Nothing big or horrible, in the long run they will adapt and be just fine.


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## U'zhul Devotee (Jun 1, 2012)

My biggest qualm with the new rules is that it forces me to adapt to changing times and come up with new inventive ways of causing mayhem and destruction for my opponents. And all the teasers, either suggesting that Daemons are finally getting their much needed update, or that GW has subsequently forgotten the amazing mess they made out of them. Cheers.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

U'zhul Devotee said:


> My biggest qualm with the new rules is that it forces me to adapt to changing times and come up with new inventive ways of causing mayhem and destruction for my opponents. And all the teasers, either suggesting that Daemons are finally getting their much needed update, or that GW has subsequently forgotten the amazing mess they made out of them. Cheers.


 
The latter. I tried a few games with my beloved fatecrusher and was actually sickened at how ineffective it was. Crushers were slow before, now it's abysmal. At least we can cherry pick the good stuff for CSM though
:victory:


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

Thats mostly what makes me mad, is people who tell me its not ok to not like things. 

I've invested like 600+ dollars in this game. "Don't play it" is not an option. I want the game that I have played since 4th edition, to stay enjoyable for me. Not become a giant steaming pile of shit.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

buckythefly said:


> Thats mostly what makes me mad, is people who tell me its not ok to not like things.
> 
> I've invested like 600+ dollars in this game. "Don't play it" is not an option. I want the game that I have played since 4th edition, to stay enjoyable for me. Not become a giant steaming pile of shit.







From the 2 games I've had so far, it's looking quite good though. Vehicles and infantry are on a more equal playing field when it comes to survivability, wich is really a good thing.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I only really know two army books "intimately" and thats Chaos Space Marines which is soon to be changed and Normal Space Marines. I've been reading through the rulebook though and it got me thinking I don't truly know how it effects the other armies. 

So what do you think is the positives and negatives in regards to the armies such as Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons etc. Excluding the ally rules of course. I'm thinking of things like, does the snap shot benefit some races more than others etc.


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