# a question about saul tarvitz



## Solomon Demter (Apr 28, 2008)

**************SPOILER ALERT***********
If you havent read the horus heresy novels up to and including fulgrim do not read ahead

in the horus heresy novels a character,Saul Tarvitz is prominantly mentioned as one of the loyal emperors children. here is my question. 

In flight of the eisenstien saul says hello to garro and informs him that he is first captain, however it says in the next book Fulgrim that the first captain is a man by the name of Julius and saul is said to be the tenth captain. now i know at first you say "well Solomon saul obviously got promoted as the horus heresy novels tend to jump a bit with time" but here is the kicker

In fulgrim saul is sent away on a mission as the tenth captain long before the meeting with garro takes place in flight of the eisenstein. throught the entire novel he remains the 10th captain and julius remains the first. now the meeting with garro in flight of the eisenstein take place right before the virus bombing of istvaan III its at this point that saul clames to be the first captain. Later on at Istvaan IV which happens chronologically after Istvaan III is virus bombed we see julius is still the first captain. fulgrim encompass the time that saul meets with garro (even though it doesnt mention it) and continues further on down the line with no mention of saul being first captain.

I am slightly confused by this, any thoughts?


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

When Saul says this he is meaning that all the other Emperor's Children are no longer well Emperor's Children. He there-fore is the First Captain as all others are Tratiors.

You know what I mean?


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## brotherlamentus (Apr 21, 2008)

yeh jacobites right, he's made himself 1st captain of the loyalist faction of the legion


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## Tom_Peanut (Apr 15, 2008)

yeah he did and thats one of the reasons why lucius got annoyed and turned to chaos being the arrogant egotist he is


as he thought he would have been a better first capitan and he was techniquely a higher rank in the legion before they turned (not entirley sure of this)


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## Solomon Demter (Apr 28, 2008)

But he says this before the bombing so he says it before he knows they are traitors


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Tom_Peanut said:


> yeah he did and thats one of the reasons why lucius got annoyed and turned to chaos being the arrogant egotist he is
> 
> 
> as he thought he would have been a better first capitan and he was techniquely a higher rank in the legion before they turned (not entirley sure of this)


Not actually a higher rank but Tarvitz was seen as being at his peak (merely a line officer) while it was expected that Lucius would go on to bigger things.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but the part Solomon is referring to occurs on Horus's warship right after Garro and Mortorian go to Lupercals court with the distress message and have it played. (The meeting of Garro and Saul that Solomon refers to is on page 108.)

Solomon, I believe its an oversight on McNeil's part; however I'd be willing to bet that when last Garro and Saul had seen each other neither man (or at the very least Saul) was a captain. So while its a screw up by McNeil, you'd go with Saul being captain of tenth company. (It would make more sense for him not to be the first captain, because Saul is usually marked off as being a line officer and little more, and the positions of the first three captains are for those who are leaders and not just soldiers.)


As for Lucius's fall, remember that it was not Saul taking on the mantle of the leader of the loyalists; it was the fact that he had listened to Saul and helped him save Demeter, casting him to be killed with the other loyalists, and then fighting a losing battle against the might of four legions. He was spiteful of Saul because he blamed him for what had happened to him, as well as Loken for ruining his perfection. Saul doesn't actually beocmine the leader of the loyalists until after Loken and Targeddon leave, Demeter is killed, and he confronts Lucius.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Saul doesn't actually beocmine the leader of the loyalists until after Loken and Targeddon leave, Demeter is killed, and he confronts Lucius.


That's not the impression I got from reading the novel. Loken and Targeddon surrendered leadership to Tarvitz AFAIK.

The two Luna Wolves only left very close to the end.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

G_Morgan said:


> That's not the impression I got from reading the novel. Loken and Targeddon surrendered leadership to Tarvitz AFAIK.
> 
> The two Luna Wolves only left very close to the end.


From what I remember, and mind you it has been some times since I read galaxy in flames, Saul was immediately recognized as a hero and a leader for his actions in bringing the warning to the loyalists before the bombing, but overall command of those forces were divided between Saul, Demeter, Loken, and Targeddon.

As the fighting went on though, Saul slowly became the most prominent of the group as a leader, and it wasn't until Loken and Targeddon left that Saul began to take full command, and once Demeter died he did take on full command. (Loken and Targeddon did not surrender leadership to Saul in the open, but all three of them knew that they were probably not coming back and so command would fall to him.)

So while he does eventually take full command, he did not come down and rally the loyalists and assume that command from the beginning, it pretty much had to be thrust on him before he accepted it.


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## Silb (Jan 28, 2008)

guys, are you sure it wasn't just some kind of a typo or something?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Probably not Silb, seeing as multiple people from different parts of the world, having gotten the books at different times, all seem to have the same problem.


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## Solomon Demter (Apr 28, 2008)

thanks everyone for the responses. i just wanted to make sure that i had read it correctly and that there wasnt some thing i missed like " oh well on page blah blah they explain it" lol. as far as lucius turning i think it mostly had to with the fact that he felt that no one was viewing him as being the most wonderfull thing in the world. Think scar from the lion king haha


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## RanDooM XXII (Apr 29, 2008)

There are maybe 2 possible answers.

1. He made himself the 1st captain of the Loyalist Emperor's Children (since all the others turned traitor)

2. Possible typo

But I like the first reason better


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## Archangel (Dec 30, 2007)

I wouldn't say he "made himself 1st captain of the loyalist Emp kiddies", I think everyone just looked to him for leadership and he just assumed the role. There's a point in the novel where it says that Lucius and Tarvitz are the same rank, but Saul takes command and Lucius feels slighted. I think they explain that it's because the regular troopers feel the Lucius is too arrogant and don't want to follow him and follow Saul's leadership instead.

After that virus bombing, and during the multiple melees, the role and name stuck.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

darkreever said:


> From what I remember, and mind you it has been some times since I read galaxy in flames, Saul was immediately recognized as a hero and a leader for his actions in bringing the warning to the loyalists before the bombing, but overall command of those forces were divided between Saul, Demeter, Loken, and Torgaddon.


Nah man. in _Fulgrim_ Demeter says that even though he is of a higher rank than Saul, Saul is the one who almost all the Emperor's Children are looking to and therefore controlling the morale of the loyalists. Because of that he lets Saul be in charge. Loken is mostly in charge of the Luna Wolves, with Tarik as help; cant remember who was in charge of Death Guard; Captain Erhlen (or whatever his name was) was in charge of the World Eaters on Istvaan.


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