# Adapting marines to 6th ed



## dalaran (Sep 9, 2008)

So 6th is out, and I'm really excited about most of the changes. Let's now discuss how vanilla SM commanders should take note of the changes to adapt and conquer.

First of all, personally I find the tactical squads more useful than ever. Their versatility will really have a chance to play out this ed. Their ability to take flamer and combi-flamer, together with their standard issue bolter will help out tremendously when assaulted. No longer do we have to draw pistols and steal the charge from those orks, and might actually stand a chance against wyches/banshee and other assault oriented units. Melta bombs on sarges are god-sent against MC and walkers 

Second, we are no longer forced to mechanize our armies. It used to be everything in a Rhino/Razoback, and the ubiquitous assault termy/land raider combo. Footslogging/gunline armies can hold their own and deal some damage, with the new wound allocation/focus fire/building/fortification rules.

Third, 6ed brings a lot of normally unused units into play. Tactical termies for ex, are now more survivable since AP2 melee weapons are much more restricted, and they still have powerfist which are one of the few Ap2 melee in the game. Devastator would also see a comeback, with pre-purchased fortification and new shooting rules. 

That's what on my mind for now  Would love to hear what else you guys have to say

Moved to Tactics. Name changed since it's no longer in a marine-specific forum. -G


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

I still think assault termies with TH/SS are now one of the most incredible/powerful assault hammers in the game - with power weapons pinging off 2+ armour and their own hammers ploughing through 2+ armour, not to mention the storm shields meaning even plasma/melta weaponry isn't a big deal either.

Stormtalon is now awesome.

You're right gunlines are now a lot better.

Librarians are awesome.

A lot of special characters are now not too great due to the AP3 power weapon rules - e.g. Vulkan, Khan, Sicarius, Chappies etc. etc.

You're right about tac termies and devvies 

I also think transports are still important.

We can also take detachments of blood angels with assault squads as troops - just for versatility or any other detachment that can complement our force.

The main thing that is worse for us (though not a lot is), is the AP3 power weapons, meaning bike command squads that used to be very dangerous are now weak and many special characters now not being able to cut through simple terminator armour.

My thoughts atm anyway


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Just make sure you haven't modelled any models with an axe...

I can see sternguard becoming double awesome with new Rapid Fire, Snap Fire, and Overwatch in place. AKA Kantor is going to be the man to watch.

Shrike has been nerfed significantly, as fleet is now pointless, so no more Raven Guard lists for me.

Vulkan loses some of his use as melta isn't nearly as necessary, but twin-linked flamers on overwatch is killer.

Techmarines and whirlwinds may see a resurgence. I'm not sure about TFCs as I haven't seen the new Artillery rules.

So essentially a mixed bag.


----------



## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Seems like TFCs have been made tougher (they have a T7, 2W 3+ sv gun, instead of the old - AV10 - glance/pen = DEAD).

Resurgence of the classic tactical squad (little Timmy's First purchase esque marines, instead of Las/Plas Razorback spam).

Methinks Rhinos will benefit from the Hull points and flat out system better, being a much faster way to get across the battlefield, whilst razorbacks favoured in 5th might be phased out slowly (particularly Lasplas razors, which may waste one gun or the other, and the dreaded gets hot roll (WHY GW WHY???) can hurt your already vulnerable tank).

Shooty termies - Back from the brink, and TH/SS termie deathstars are not compulsory anymore - DLC termies will do a number on anything except TEQs (and will be equally as horrible as they were in 5th).

Biker Command: FNP is still given to units as long as they're not hit by double T (regardless of AP), so Command Squads get a 5+ save (almost consistently due to Jink), as well as their armour/invun. Slightly weaker than before, but wound allocation rules can hurt them hard.

SM Scouts with Snipers become even more effective with the Aegis line/quad gun setup. Deploy a 5man unit of snipers with Camo (or not) behind the line, letting the sgt man the quad gun/emplaced weapon, netting you a BS4 Super Lascannon or a BS4 Short range hydra for fairly cheap (and can score too), with a unit that is very hard to shift.

Overwatch and Combis - Combiflamers will become like golddust, given their overwatch ability, but even in SM tactical squads, the units can overwatch with bolt pistols.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

Do you guys still think transports will be important?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

They are important, but now have some crippling disadvantages.

-Can't assault out of them even if they stand still.
-Stunned stops you from firing trasported troops even if you disembark (Apparently)
-obscured from smoke only gives 5+, but you get the cover save of 25% ovscured from being behind any kind of cover (3-4+ possible).
-Ap2-AP1 weapons are terrifying as it is now impossible for a las cannon to get u anything worse then a vehicle stunned result, and a melta gun or rail gun hit will destroy a gun at the very least.)
-Fact is walking assault armies are still a profoundly stupid idea (Nids have no choice in the matter), as the changes to rapid fire make doing so a death sentence for low save troops.


Things that are better and should be paid attention to this edition. Bikes, jump troops, terminators, static gun line losers (really its a boring and repetitive play style), flyers (Duh) and lots of armies will be packing cheap psykers.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

What's that about assaulting out of vehicles... Could you elaborate?


Land Raiders still work right?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh I forgot tha tmost peaple havn'r read the book 2-3 times yet....ok brace yourself.

1- You can't assault out of vhicles unless they have the assault rule....even if they didn't move that turn.
2- you can only disembark if the vhicle moved 6" you can still walk around 4-5" afterwards.
3- Landraiders are still assault vehicles so generally speaking they are unaffected...and they damn well better be for 225+ pts!


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

So a Blood Angel assault squad in a rhino... You have to move 6 to disembark then wait for a turn before assault? Sounds a bit stupid...


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

Damn I was thinking of using BA as a detachment too....

Can the whole squad throw grenades or just one guy?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh it is, but giving them jump packs gives them a free I10 str4 auto hit when they charge in. So watch out all you skyophiles out there.

Also grenades are generally one model, but assault grenades act as a throw able blast weapon. Defensive and melta bombs...not so much.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

So when you want to throw a frag grenade, only one model can throw it right?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep. Otherwise it would be retardedly broken.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

Still thinking TH/SS terminators in a LRC with a Libby is the way to goooo


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The LRC could either be just as strong or die quicker depending on what is fielded against you and how much high end shooting they have. It only takes 4 glancing hits to wreck it now.


----------



## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Does the assault grenade still mean you can charge safely through cover? If so, does that still work if you use it as a blast weapon?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Since as a blast weapon it is in the shooting phase, I would say yes they still work in the assault phase as they did before.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

Plasma or Melta now?


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Just make sure you haven't modelled any models with an axe...


<sighs> Poor Dante
Goodbye, I6 it was nice having you on such a badass chapter master.

At least Astoriath gets away with 'Unusual Power Weapon' and can keep his I5


----------



## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> -Ap2-AP1 weapons are terrifying as it is now impossible for a las cannon to get u anything worse then a vehicle stunned result, and a melta gun or rail gun hit will destroy a gun at the very least.)


Well with the changes to the vehicle damage table the +1 from an AP2 weapon would give a minimum of shaken. 1-2 is now shaken with 3 being stunned. Melta/rail would still be scary though. Exploding open topped vehicles on a penetrating hit (which is a 3+ with a melta vs armor 10 DE transport) with 3+ is pretty scary.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

Viability of Land Raiders?

Or mech lists in general?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Nothing wrong with mech, and it depends on how you play/use LRs.


----------



## Drinkgasoline (Apr 9, 2012)

To transport TH/SS termies across the board 

Speaking of that, viability of assault based army lists?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Unless your walking or DS, the LR is the only option to transport those termies. When I said depends on how you use them I meant if you used cover and whatnot or just blindly charged with the thing.

It pretty much boils down to how smart you are in moving across the board. If you just blindly charge and hope for the best you might make it or you might get shot off the board depending on who you are playing. 

This stands for all of the game not just assaults. They have made it where you have to think a little more and not just spam and rush.


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Galahad said:


> <sighs> Poor Dante
> Goodbye, I6 it was nice having you on such a badass chapter master.
> 
> At least Astoriath gets away with 'Unusual Power Weapon' and can keep his I5


Dante and Kharn can embrace each other as they get splatted by power fists. Kharn was the only thing that kept me using CSM now and then. 

Also ragnar blackmane is total balls now, I6 was his advantage, and Abaddon too.


----------



## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Drinkgasoline said:


> Speaking of that, viability of assault based army lists?


I agree 100% with it depending on how you use them. With jump packs getting a free str4 auto hit when they charge assault squads are good. Not to mention that in close combat terminators are basically king again. The thunder hammers strike at init 1 but most things that can ignore their armor attack at the same time as them, and they still get the 3+ save. You deny their armor but get a good save of your own. I am sad lightning claws got dropped to ap3, but you take what you can get.


----------



## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I personally think were going to see lots of bike armies. As bikes are now T5, get impact hits and have a jinx save (5+ cover).


----------



## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Necrosis said:


> I personally think were going to see lots of bike armies. As bikes are now T5, get impact hits and have a jinx save (5+ cover).


I know I am going to put mine in more often. I have a command squad on bikes led by Khan (or a chaplain depending on how I feel) with SS/TH. With the changes to FNP, and now that they are T5, little will deny them FNP so what saves I fail I get to try again, albeit with a 5+.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Heard furious charge took a nerf? How badly. With Ap3 cc attacks and overwatch, Im not too sure the killer command squads are worth it anymore. Cheapo squad loaded with 4 flamers or plasmas comes to 185/225 apiece, 2 of them with a tham captain to provide hitting power in cc sounds more capable.

Bikes strength always was staying out of cc, don't see why the one cc bike squad in the army gets weaker. Impact hits in return for being overwatched during hit and run with a supposedly nerfed furious charge, weakened rules allocation and nerfed power weapons?

Expensive Bike command squads are weaker, which weakens the entire army as they soaked up firepower that would otherwise prove deadly; now they get a free turn of shooting just by standing still? Fuck that.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

mcmuffin said:


> Dante and Kharn can embrace each other as they get splatted by power fists. Kharn was the only thing that kept me using CSM now and then.
> 
> Also ragnar blackmane is total balls now, I6 was his advantage, and Abaddon too.


I thought Abby had a sword and a big weird lightning claw? Abby's doing fine.
But yeah, Karn is fucked though

That said, I'll be loading my Sanguinary Guard up with axe-shaped Encarmine Glaives. If I don;t get a bonus attack I may as well get the most out of the ones I have, and the arty armor means they;ll live long enough to use them.


----------



## Crow Splat (Mar 28, 2012)

Galahad said:


> I thought Abby had a sword and a big weird lightning claw? Abby's doing fine.
> But yeah, Karn is fucked though
> 
> That said, I'll be loading my Sanguinary Guard up with axe-shaped Encarmine Glaives. If I don;t get a bonus attack I may as well get the most out of the ones I have, and the arty armor means they;ll live long enough to use them.



Abbadon is only ap3 IIRC. So a squad of hammernators will spend the majority of the assault against him cleaning the goo that used to be his face off their hammers. 

A lot of SW players are in the same boat with axes. Damn near the entire range of SW models has axes almost exclusively.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

well, yeah that's true but at least he can strike at initiative.


----------



## Crow Splat (Mar 28, 2012)

I guess you take what you can get right? :victory:


----------



## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Heard furious charge took a nerf? How badly.


Only affects str now, no more bonus to init.



> With Ap3 cc attacks and overwatch, Im not too sure the killer command squads are worth it anymore.


I am going to try it out a few times. I spent way too much time modding my command squad to just put them on the shelf. I don't think they will do so bad. They are more survivable with the change to FNP and still get the ap2 TH. 3+ invo save keeps them alive and furious charge gives them a str 9 attack. Khan has init 5 so he is good, but with the TH the rest act the same as before since they never got a bonus to init. Khan gets 4 attacks that on a 6 cause instant death which he gets to assign where he wants them. Add in that the squad gets 6 str4 attacks at init 10, then the fun begins. Sounds good to me. 



> Cheapo squad loaded with 4 flamers or plasmas comes to 185/225 apiece


What squad can take 4 flamer/plasma?



> now they get a free turn of shooting just by standing still? Fuck that.


How many 6s do you really think the opponent will roll? And how many of those will wound? And how many will I fail both my armor/invo and FNP? I don't expect overwatch to be a major concern. But I will let you know how it goes.


----------



## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

Galahad said:


> I thought Abby had a sword and a big weird lightning claw? Abby's doing fine.
> But yeah, Karn is fucked though
> 
> That said, I'll be loading my Sanguinary Guard up with axe-shaped Encarmine Glaives. If I don;t get a bonus attack I may as well get the most out of the ones I have, and the arty armor means they;ll live long enough to use them.


Weird lightening claw?? It's the claw of Horus himself!


----------



## Crow Splat (Mar 28, 2012)

And apparently Horus couldn't kill terminators either..


----------

