# Has anyone read 7th Retribution?



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I came across an article stub about it on lexicanum. The plot sounds ridiculous:

















http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Maerorus_Temple#.UZn5G7XI0WY


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I smell bullshit


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Well I don't know what happened but actual reviews of non HH-BL books have become exceedingly rare so it's all I have to go on.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I dunno, but that whole page about this supposed assassin just reeks of fanfic. Very poor fanfic at that.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

If there is any truth at all in that Lexi page, then this book dipped even lower down on my to read list...


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## Liliedhe (Apr 29, 2012)

I read the book. It wasn't soooo bad but



Unfortunately, that stuff is true.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Ive read 7th Retribution. The plot is exactly as written on the lexi page.




A seventh temple of assassins that turned out to be a rather horrible idea going wrong in the worst way possible. 
Basically an assasin whom absorbs biomass and reshapes it to her will. I had quite a vibe of the Species movies when I read the stories. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_(film)

I found the book a decent read, and its not super focused on Danath Lysander as one might have feared. But we see him rail against the machinations in the shadows and striving to bring an end to it.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I don't dislike the genesis of the Temple. Seems sci-fi-y and grimdark. Y'know, one of BL's major draws since its creation.

However, one does not simply battle a Grand Master Culexus while dodging fire from a Grand Master Vindicare and a wealth of other foes without Bobss raising an eyebrow.

If I can find a cheap copy online I'll still get it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You see, the whole owning if the other temple masters is what made me think it was bullshit. That just sounds awful.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Wow so she's stronger than a Primarch apparently. Ben Countered.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Wow so she's stronger than a Primarch apparently. Ben Countered.


I see new canon arriving soon! How that got past the editors/keepers of the lore, well no comment.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Hmm some concerns about this:

As Bobss said, the genesis of the Maesorus Temple doesn't bother me. It sounds like the kind of thing the oft-hypocritical Imperium would do. Making deals with heretics isn't new and the Assassinorum isn't squeaky clean, so it's not out of character for them to do something questionable like this. The only part of it I am leery of is the deal with the World Eaters, because I don't see the World Eaters as being the type to make deals with anybody, better if he had chosen the Night Lords or the Red Corsairs; a more mercenary group of CSM. The idea behind the Maesorus Assassins is an interesting one, a bit too much like Resident Evil for my liking, but it's a good one and it seems like this Leigenstrasse is an interesting opponent.

The fighting however is the problem. But not all of it. Lysander, a squad of Assault Marines, a squad of 1st Company veterans, a Scout Sniper Squad, the Emperor's Champion, the Culexes Grand Master and the Vindicare Grand Master, and she beat all of them. Too much. But it's the other Assassins that make it too much in my opinion. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was just the Space Marines she beat, because i've always seen the Assassins as powerful opponents who could do such things. But the idea that this one warrior defeated three squads of the Imperial Fists, one of the strongest Astartes Captains alive, and two Assassin Grand Masters simultaenously is ludicrous. Even a Daemon Prince would have had a tricky time with that, not saying that a Prince wouldn't win, just that it would be hard. But this is a flesh and blood opponent that ultimately is mortal.

And a second fight with Lysander, a Terminator Squad, a 1st Company Epistolary, the Emperor's Champion, the Vindicare Grand Master and an Eversor Assassin and only Lysander survives. Again too much. Take away the Assassins, or in fact just the Vindicaer, and it's not so bad. The Eversor I can accept as it would be a hell of a fight, but the Grand Master is just too much. In my opinion this is a case of trying to show how powerful this Leigenstrasse is by having her defeat opponents that we will automatically recognize as being mighty, but taking it too far by having them be opponents that shouldn't be beaten that easily. If these Assassins had been regular members of their temples I could buy that they'd be beaten, but the Grand Masters?? No, I would think that they'd be able to win with the kind of Astartes backup they had.


Edit: Have just corresponded with somebody whose actually read the book and he had this to say.




It never occurred to me that Legienstrasse was overpowered while I was reading. Possibly it's because she always seemed to be fighting in an environment that favored her massively - lots of bodies, dead or otherwise, to use to fuel her Necromorphosis or hamper the enemy. In fact I don't recall any point where a full squad of Space Marines was able to focus on killing her exclusively; if that had been the case I suspect she wouldn't have stood up so well.

I'd also note that her ability to kill her fellow Assassins was predicated on advantage and fortune, not Leggy's Powah of Awesome. The Vindicaire had her dead to rights if the Space Marine hadn't got in the way, but once she knew he was around she was on guard and much more difficult to snipe. The Culexis was singularly ill-equipped to deal with her in close combat, regardless of skill, and the Eversor... well, you know. EVERSOR. She didn't win that one, she just got lucky to survive at all.



Makes the whole situation of the book and the antagonist much better once you understand the context. The fights do sound ludicrous on the Lexicanum but according to David Earle on the bolthole the actual fights are quite fair, and because the Imperial forces seem to get in each other's way which we know is something that happens frequently when Imperial branches work together, especially a pair as different from each other as the Astartes and the Assassins.

Really want to read this book now, so I can get a real look at the events within for myself.


LotN


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?

James Swallow and his Chaos-infused stop signs.

Gav Thorpe and his Space Marines dying from air embolisms as a result of near perfect biology.

Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.

CS Goto and his acrobatic Termanitor suits of armor. 

Etc.

Why is it that Abnett and ADB never get their facts wrong? Why do we never, in a thousand years, have to worry about these two creating such abominations or mocking established fluff/lore?

Is it because they take their craft seriously and respect the IP while the others don't? 

All of the BL authors can write well in my opinion but why some of them do the above time and time again and how it gets OK'ed by BL eludes me.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?


In YOUR opinion they are garbage. But fact is some of the stuff you've listed is just personal taste, they are not to yours.



Malus Darkblade said:


> James Swallow and his Chaos-infused stop signs.


There is nothing wrong with this lore-wise. It could happen and there's no reason that it couldn't have happened. You just don't like it and fine to that, not saying you should, but it's not a lore error.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Gav Thorpe and his Space Marines dying from air embolisms as a result of near perfect biology.


I'm not sure what your talking about here.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.


Ben Counter works outside the box, you don't like that then that is your choice but 40k is all about differing visions and I think his stuff has been really good in the past with one or two exceptions. That said, the piece of lore you mentioned is an exception yes. It shouldn't have happened because as we know GK would massacre the Sisters, but it was written many Codexes ago so perhaps we can ascribe it to differing lore changes.



Malus Darkblade said:


> CS Goto and his acrobatic Termanitor suits of armor.


No defence for that and it doesn't deserve any. Really bad lore and should never have been written or approved. Same with Planetary Guardsmen/Mutants becoming Space Marines.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I have to agree with Lotn, dont presume to speak for all of us. I personally thought it a decent read with an unusual plotline. I enjoyed seeing more of the assassins and showing they too can plot and scheme. That it isnt only the shadowy inquisition alone that can play questionable games with imperial resources.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> In YOUR opinion they are garbage. But fact is some of the stuff you've listed is just personal taste, they are not to yours.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this lore-wise. It could happen and there's no reason that it couldn't have happened. You just don't like it and fine to that, not saying you should, but it's not a lore error.


It's not a lore inconsistency, just a childish idea and ultimately bad writing. Why stop with traffic signs? Why not have poodles possessed by Daemons? It doesn't break the lore, you're right.



Lord of the Night said:


> I'm not sure what your talking about here.


From the Purging of Kaddilus:


'_Hasrien’s system was pumping Larraman cells through his bloodstream, which would harden into a protective layer on contact with the air. 

The downside of this rapid healing with major wounds was the possibility of *air bubbles being trapped in the blood vessels, leading to necrosis and cell death* if the Space Marine did not receive proper treatment swiftly'_.




Lord of the Night said:


> Ben Counter works outside the box, you don't like that then that is your choice but 40k is all about differing visions and I think his stuff has been really good in the past with one or two exceptions. That said, the piece of lore you mentioned is an exception yes. It shouldn't have happened because as we know GK would massacre the Sisters, but it was written many Codexes ago so perhaps we can ascribe it to differing lore changes.


Where was it written? What battle was mentioned in the codex that had the above happen?

So we can't just call it bad writing simply because 'Ben Counter works outside the box' and is a rebel?



Lord of the Night said:


> No defence for that and it doesn't deserve any. Really bad lore and should never have been written or approved. Same with Planetary Guardsmen/Mutants becoming Space Marines.


Why defend BC and the rest but not CS Goto? He did not break the lore because the fluff does not explicitly say someone in Terminator armor cannot jump. 



Brother Lucian said:


> I have to agree with Lotn, dont presume to speak for all of us.


I don't speak for anyone other than myself. But it's nonsense to claim that the examples provided above are anything but silly.



Brother Lucian said:


> I personally thought it a decent read with an unusual plotline. I enjoyed seeing more of the assassins and showing they too can plot and scheme. That it isnt only the shadowy inquisition alone that can play questionable games with imperial resources.


No one has issues with assassins plotting and scheming. People have issue with this super-assassin being stronger than a Primarch.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's not a lore inconsistency, just a childish idea and ultimately bad writing. Why stop with traffic signs? Why not have poodles possessed by Daemons? It doesn't break the lore, you're right.


Just because you think it's childish doesn't mean it is. I envision Daemons made of concrete, metal and with bits of everyday normal stuff twisted into their forms for that scene. Which to me is creepy because it's everyday stuff that the Daemons are twisting into bodies for themselves, even without flesh bodies they can get you.



Malus Darkblade said:


> From the Purging of Kaddilus:
> 
> 
> '_Hasrien’s system was pumping Larraman cells through his bloodstream, which would harden into a protective layer on contact with the air.
> ...


I see no issue with that. Giving the hyper-awesome Space Marine biology a downside or two?? What exactly is wrong with that? And it doesn't say he'll die from it, it just says that it could cause cell death, which inevitably would lead to infections which would further tax his system.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So we can't just call it bad writing simply because 'Ben Counter works outside the box' and is a rebel?


It's all down to personal taste. You don't like Ben Counter, fine. But others, including me, do. Personally I think Ben Counter has the best depictions of Chaos in all the BL writers because he really goes all the way out there in terms of madness for it. Chaos is meant to be inconceivably insane, and Counter gets the closest to that of any of the writer's ive read.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Why defend BC and the rest but not CS Goto? He did not break the lore because the fluff does not explicitly say someone in Terminator armor cannot jump.


Now you're just being facetious. I don't need to read that Terminator armor can't back-flip because it's obvious to anybody who even looks at a picture of it that it wouldn't be able to back-flip. Some things don't need to be explicitly stated, and i'm not defending CS Goto because he does things that just would not happen, we don't need to read that they wouldn't because the idea of it is ludicrous.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't speak for anyone other than myself. But it's nonsense to claim that the examples provided above are anything but silly.


To you. But to some of us it isn't nonsense and those things aren't silly, some of us like the things you've listed and other examples that you haven't.


LotN


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I'm reading _Fear to Tread_ at the minute at thoroughly enjoying it.

I recently read _The Lion_ in which the Dark Angles are assaulted by the usual horde of daemons torn from the codex's army list, and it lacked the sense of horror that belonged to _Know No Fear_ in which the Ultramarines systematically purge Guilliman's flagship from God-knows-what-daemon-thing appearing, or the planet itself slowly turning against the Blood Angels.

A gang of Bloodletters charging through a warp-rift might as well be Eldar in Halloween getup.

Claiming Abnett has consistently respected established lore is delusion. The man has even admitted in interviews to the contrary. Granted, I do prefer Abnett's lore to that presented in the source material, to the extent where I can casually say he _makes_ the lore. But that isn't the point here.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

bobss said:


> I'm reading _Fear to Tread_ at the minute at thoroughly enjoying it.
> 
> I recently read _The Lion_ in which the Dark Angles are assaulted by the usual horde of daemons torn from the codex's army list, and it lacked the sense of horror that belonged to _Know No Fear_ in which the Ultramarines systematically purge Guilliman's flagship from God-knows-what-daemon-thing appearing, or the planet itself slowly turning against the Blood Angels.
> 
> A gang of Bloodletters charging through a warp-rift might as well be Eldar in Halloween getup.


This! This is why I enjoyed the Junk-Daemons and the monstrous creatures that appeared in KNF. Because they are obviously Daemonic in origin. The Blood Angels arrive in Signus and see a Bloodletter in that empty city their rational views will not let them see it as a Daemon, they'll call it a xeno that they've never seen before. But when the Junk-Daemons appear it's impossible to deny a supernatural origin to them, they can't be called xenos because it's blatantly obvious that no xeno could do what they did, only something that isn't mortal could turn a city into a monster and create an army of nightmares out of everyday objects. It was a bucket of cold water to the Blood Angels collective face, showing them without any room to question that Signus was under attack by something they had been told did not exist, Daemons.



bobss said:


> Claiming Abnett has consistently respected established lore is delusion. The man has even admitted in interviews to the contrary. Granted, I do prefer Abnett's lore to that presented in the source material, to the extent where I can casually say he _makes_ the lore. But that isn't the point here.


Let us not forget the Jetcar and the Lightsabre.


LotN


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?
> 
> Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.
> 
> ...


Considering the posts above this one, I will merely limit myself to this:

I like how you mention the "Sisters of Battle massacre Grey Knights" stuff again. We are talking about what appears to be an entire convent of Sisters of Battle, facing off against a handful of Grey Knights.

I just checked in the book, it's a small army of entrenched Sisters of Battle fighting against 21 Grey Knights and possibly killing 3 Grey Knights in the process. That is hardly a skirmish, let alone a massacre.

Edit: To get back on-topic, I am planning on getting Seventh Retribution, sometime. Like so many other books that have been released this year. oh well.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> This! This is why I enjoyed the Junk-Daemons and the monstrous creatures that appeared in KNF. Because they are obviously Daemonic in origin. The Blood Angels arrive in Signus and see a Bloodletter in that empty city their rational views will not let them see it as a Daemon, they'll call it a xeno that they've never seen before. But when the Junk-Daemons appear it's impossible to deny a supernatural origin to them, they can't be called xenos because it's blatantly obvious that no xeno could do what they did, only something that isn't mortal could turn a city into a monster and create an army of nightmares out of everyday objects. It was a bucket of cold water to the Blood Angels collective face, showing them without any room to question that Signus was under attack by something they had been told did not exist, Daemons.


Completely agree. Corruption and by extent possession goes beyond just flesh (in my mind anyway). A lot has been said about this part of the FTT. Personally I didn't have a problem with it, as it showed something different, something a author hasn't shown beyond 'flesh' possession. Bravo on that.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I finished _Fear To Tread_ recently, and the later parts of the book were rife with lesser daemons of Slaanesh and Khorne, Furies and, I believe, one or two less identifiable critters. Which is fine, even Abnett used a daemonette or two (really effectively with his human characters, might I add) in _Know No Fear_.

Junk-daemons were better suited for that stage of the campaign for so many reasons. Malus just loves him some slaughtering BL authors.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Ok i've read this novel now, my review for it is up in the new BL Reviews Section, and i'd like to set the record straight on that Lexicanum article because it's quite inaccurate.




As to the first fight it is not anything like the article describes. Legienstrasse does not fight all of those enemies, she only fights the Grand Mistress of the Culexes Temple. She wins obviously because a Culexes Assassin is a psyker-killer and isn't able to deal with mundane threats with the same level of efficiency, and she was unprepared for how strong Legienstrasse actually was. The Vindicare Assassin, who is NOT the Grand Master, fires a single shot to help out but Legienstrasse knows how Vindicare operate so she was able to predict the most likely spot he would pick and the most likely time he would fire, and block the shot. After that the Assassin couldn't continue firing because the Culexes was in the way. The Imperial Fists were fighting other enemies and only Lysander was trying to get to the fight, and Legienstrasse used tentacles of solid blood to hold him back. Only an Assault Sergeant made it to the fight and he was quickly outmatched, and Legienstrasse used his biomass to end the fight with the Culexes quickly. She fled after that.

And in the second fight once again she doesn't actually fight all of that. She fights Lysander, two of his Terminators, the Vindicare and an Eversor and the Thunderhawk, and not all at once. She fights Lysander and is at a disadvantage until the two Terminators come in, she kills them and uses their biomass to fight Lysander. They are fighting in an unstable warp-built structure and they fall into a cavern of magma, where the Thunderhawk shows up with the Vindicare on board. He fires at her and tries to support Lysander but Legienstrasse assaults the Thunderhawk, killing the Vindicare quickly and rips the Thunderhawks' left wing off, causing it to crash. She gets wounded by the damage and that gives Lysander enough time to wake the Eversor up who puts up a good fight but can't match Legienstrasse's morphing abilities. He loses and just before he dies Lysander uses the fallen Emperor's Champion's sword, who had died fighting a World Eater Berzerker Champion, to pin them together. The explosion wounds Legienstrasse and allows Lysander to decapitate her and hurl her head into the lava. And with that the Maerorus are extinct.

That article is dead wrong in the details of the fights. Legienstrasse never fights that many enemies at once, and in every fight she had the advantage of being surrounded by dead bodies to use as biomass. In her second fight with Lysander she actually didn't morph beyond turning her hands into bone blade until the Terminators came in and provided biomass, that was her key weakness. Without bodies to absorb she couldn't utilize her power, so a significantly capable opponent could prevent her from absorbing bodies long enough to kill her.



Just wanted to set the record straight.


LotN


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?
> 
> James Swallow and his Chaos-infused stop signs.
> 
> ...


Because ADB and Abnett are just better writers period. The difference between Abnett's quality of prose and, say, Swallow's is massive...never mind lore consistency, Swallow just writes at a very low level for a professional authour 

Please remember that LotN's favourite Heresy novel is..._Fear to Tread_. He has very different taste compared to you or I. 



> It's not a lore inconsistency, just a childish idea and ultimately bad writing. Why stop with traffic signs? Why not have poodles possessed by Daemons? It doesn't break the lore, you're right.


LOL I hope James Swallow doesn't read these forums



Lord of the Night said:


> in every fight she had the advantage of being surrounded by dead bodies to use as biomass


How convenient


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Please remember that LotN's favourite Heresy novel is..._Fear to Tread_. He has very different taste compared to you or I.


Fyi, my favourite HH novel is currently _Betrayer_. _Fear to Tread_ comes in at 2nd place and _Know No Fear_ at 3rd.

I do hope that wasn't a shot at me.



MontytheMighty said:


> How convenient.


Oh yeah it's got to be author convenience that a battlefield is full of dead bodies, cos you know in 40k that _almost never_ happens.


LotN


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Fyi, my favourite HH novel is currently _Betrayer_. _Fear to Tread_ comes in at 2nd place and _Know No Fear_ at 3rd.


No it's not a shot, we have very different taste...



> Oh yeah it's got to be author convenience that a battlefield is full of dead bodies, cos you know in 40k that _almost never_ happens.


No, it's convenient that the battles _always_ take place on battlefields littered with bodies


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> No, it's convenient that the battles _always_ take place on battlefields littered with bodies


Actually if you'd read all of my spoilers you'd know that wasn't the case.




The first battle did take place with lots of bodies. The second one however did not, Legienstrasse fought Lysander without bodies to use at first. It wasn't until two Terminators came to his aid that she was able to kill someone and use their biomass to transform. It's not author convenience that the first fight she found lots of bodies to use in the battlefield that she created as a diversion to escape the planet.




LotN


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Now now chaps. Agree to disagree.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The first battle did take place with lots of bodies. The second one however did not, Legienstrasse fought Lysander without bodies to use at first. It wasn't until two Terminators came to his aid that she was able to kill someone and use their biomass to transform. It's not author convenience that the first fight she found lots of bodies to use in the battlefield that she created as a diversion to escape the planet.




Wait so...that sounds like Lysander would've been better off without any "help" from the two terminators


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Wait so...that sounds like Lysander would've been better off without any "help" from the two terminators





Perhaps, perhaps not. Lysander would not have been able to kill Legienstrasse where he was, submersion in lava was what finally killed her. But at the same time Legienstrasse might not have been able to defeat him without biomass to change her form enough to match a Space Marine. And of course the two Terminators couldn't have known that they would end up being more of a hindrance than help.




LotN


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