# Vulkan sighting in GK Book?



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I was reading one of the recent posts on, "What are the primarchs up to?" and was surprised that of all the potentially remaining primarchs, Vulkan seemed to present the largest mystery, outside of him returning once the Salamanders find his sacred objects.

After going through the article, I recalled a character in the GK novel, "Hammer of Daemons." When Justicar Alaric is first taken to the Chaos world Draakasi in the Eye of Terror he wakes up in a smithy (the start of Chapter 5) with a character that has...

<spoiler>-a voice, "It was deep and gravelly, from a throat scorched by years amid the forges."
-"He was a massive man with brawny shoulders and dark skin"
-"...a smith by trade... There are no blades like mine on this world... armour such as I can craft. Fits like a steel skin. Bends like silk. Toughened by fires as fiece as the heart of a star, strong enough to turn Khorne's own axe aside."<endspoiler>

The character turns up a couple more times in the book without additional description, but the boasts of the smith for his work seem to hold true in the book. As well, the character seems to know just how and when to aid Justicar Alaric to bring about the climax wherein the Grey Knight... just read the book yourself. The description of his size is also from the viewpoint of Alaric, a Grey Knight, who himself is a good head above most Astares.

From what I've read of Vulkan, this is the closest I've seen him described that fits with the available facts of his dissapearance... OK, meaning that he's a smith, has dark skin, and is in the Eye of Terror, which is more than we have on Russ or Corax right now. Condsidering Vulkan has in mind the eventual goal of defeating Chaos, it would make sense for him to stay on a Chaos world that would allow him to practice making weapons that are better and better at killing Chaos.

If this issue has been discussed before, I apologize as it doesn't turn up in a Forum search. As well, I wanted to put some spoiler alert, but forget the exact codes for doing so. Besides, the novel is already 4 years old.


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## jams (Sep 19, 2009)

a nice theory, and quite probably correct

+Rep sir!


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

If a single GK could find a way to fight his way off the planet then surely a Prmarch would have done so years before, shortly after slaughtering every last heretic he could find.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Unless he had some reason to stay Norm...perhaps his anonymity keeps the Imperium safer somehow...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Could be I suppose, just seems like a bit of a stretch. I don't remember anything that made him stand out as being a primarch though. I imagine them as being far more impressive than a larger than average guy with dark skin.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe his skin colouration makes him selectively invisible. That'd be fucking cool.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Man, that is great observation. I remember reading that story and now you point it out it seems obvious. And yes, making weapons to defeat chaos would be the perfect pastime for an imortal.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Especially an immortal with a smithing hobby.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

normtheunsavoury said:


> If a single GK could find a way to fight his way off the planet then surely a Prmarch would have done so years before, shortly after slaughtering every last heretic he could find.


To add, by that theory though russ should of been found ages ago
"where is our primarch?"
"well if we follow this trail of dead bodies, I'm sure we can't go far wrong"

Maybe the primarchs have no power there, or have forgotten there past, or something, its not discussed allot by GW any further than "there are primarchs in that chaos place, the thingy"


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

I just looked up the final talk Alaric had with that smith, during which he noticed surgical scars and a black carapace, which raises the question, did the primarchs have a black carapace?


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

VanquisherMBT: I think you've made a good point; What if Vulcan has amnesia? He still loves smithing but doesn't remember that he is a Primarch... 

Maybe after a few pints with Russ he got in a brawl, woke up with a sore head and empty pockets, some guy offers him a job at a blacksmiths and the rest is history... 

On a serious note, I think it's a good theory, he could have lost his memory for all sorts of reasons.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> To add, by that theory though russ should of been found ages ago
> "where is our primarch?"
> "well if we follow this trail of dead bodies, I'm sure we can't go far wrong"


Trying to follow the a trail of dead bodies in the eye is like trying to find a line of snow in the middle of a blizzard.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Intriguing. I'll have to track this book down.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Trying to follow the a trail of dead bodies is like trying to find a line of snow in the middle of a blizzard.


The line of bodies with fang marks, frost blade cuts and the shit from 2 wolves then


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Primarchs are exceptionally long-lived, but they are not immortal. Only way one could still be alive is stasis or warp-power.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

From what I remember, the smith seemed to be a space marine whom had been broken into servitude, but whom provides Alaric with the clues to rise above and free himself.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Primarchs are exceptionally long-lived, but they are not immortal. Only way one could still be alive is stasis or warp-power.


Actually fluff (Horus Heresy books) puts Space Marines and Primarchs lifespans as potentially infinite. It only makes sense considering how long the Emperor has lived (prior to the Heresy) and their genes contain a small portion of him in it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> Actually fluff (Horus Heresy books) puts Space Marines and Primarchs lifespans as potentially infinite. It only makes sense considering how long the Emperor has lived (prior to the Heresy) and their genes contain a small portion of him in it.


The Emperor, yes, Primarchs no, they are but a shadow of His glory. If you're going to claim they are immortal you're going to need quotes.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

This is just form the wiki (google ftw , but its pretty valid
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Primarch
"They were intended to be the immortal and superhuman leaders who would command the Emperor's Great Crusade to reunite the scattered human race beneath his leadership. "

*EDIT* at the very least, its the best I could find during spanish class


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> The Emperor, yes, Primarchs no, they are but a shadow of His glory. If you're going to claim they are immortal you're going to need quotes.


I'm pretty sure I remember reading that SM are immortal(they will never die of natural diseases) in a few of the HH books. I'm sure someone with the HH series as ebooks can do a quick search and find some quotes.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Given that the individual in question has surgical scars etc from organ implantation and such he can't be Vulcan. The Primachs never had and of the specialist organs implanted.

He's just a larger than usual Salamander who's an above average smith (as most Salamanders are, he's just particularly exceptional).


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe he had scars from organ removal?


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Cruxyh said:


> I just looked up the final talk Alaric had with that smith, during which he noticed surgical scars and a black carapace, which raises the question, did the primarchs have a black carapace?


Thanks for digging this up Cruxyh, I was looking, but couldn't find it thumbing through the book... could you provide me with a chapter number so I can look it up on my own?

Et al... is it a fluff fact that the Primarchs didn't have the black carapaces installed? Outside of their overall primarchiness, it wouldn't make a lot of sense that the Astares would need the carapace to interface with their armor, but not the primarchs, especially when you think of the implants possessed by Angron and... hmmm... can't think of any more. I certainly haven't read anything like that in the HH novels, but I'm also not privy to the Codexes.

Thanks all for the discussion!


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Maybe he had scars from organ removal?


A Live Organ Donor Card? :laugh:

"We've come for you liver."

"Yes, well, as you can see I'm still using it!"


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Rems said:


> Given that the individual in question has surgical scars etc from organ implantation and such he can't be Vulcan. The Primachs never had and of the specialist organs implanted.
> 
> He's just a larger than usual Salamander who's an above average smith (as most Salamanders are, he's just particularly exceptional).


OK, another question... why would an Astares need scars for organ implantation, when they basically flay all the skin off their bodies to install the black carapace? It would seem like removing the body panels from a new car so you can install the engine, when you already had just a plane frame sitting there. Not being argumentative, just thinkin'.


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Thanks for digging this up Cruxyh, I was looking, but couldn't find it thumbing through the book... could you provide me with a chapter number so I can look it up on my own?


Here you go, it's in chapter Twenty, page 298 in the actual Hammer of Daemons book or page 699 of the Grey Knights Omnibus.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Definitely not a primarch that one. Its widely pointed out in the HH books that the internals of a primarch was unlike anything ever the apotecaries had seen, when they tried to help the sick Horus pre Davin.

And in the Outcast Dead an astropath is looking at Dorn, its practically like looking into a miniuniverse filled with suns. 

The Emperor handcrafted the primarchs on the genetic level, there was no need at all for them to have implanted organs for anything regarding power armor, because they were built by him from the bottom up. 

The astartes implants is crafted from geneseed extracted from the pimarchs, their very essence distilled into it. The implants needed to upgrade mundane humans into something greater, which will gradually rebuild them on a genetic level.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> The Emperor handcrafted the primarchs on the genetic level


Quantum level actually, but yes you are right


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

has anyone stopped to consider the scars might not be surgical? the GK said they look like surgical scars, but is it possible they're scars from old battle wounds?


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

It is a good theory, but I don't think it could be Vulkan. There is the whole black carapace thing, plus Alaric didn't even spot that he was Astartes until he saw the carapace. If he'd been a Primarch I think it would have been obvious that there was something about him, even if his true nature was hidden or forgotten.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Zion said:


> Actually fluff (Horus Heresy books) puts Space Marines and Primarchs lifespans as potentially infinite.


Note that the HH books don't say that Space Marines are immortal--they state that, 250 years into the Great Crusade, no Space Marine has died of old age, and _as far as they can know, Space Marines are functionally immortal_.

The old age of Logan Grimnir and Dante seems to indicate that they do have a lifespan, albeit a much longer one than a normal human.



TheKingElessar said:


> Primarchs are exceptionally long-lived, but they are not immortal. Only way one could still be alive is stasis or warp-power.


False. We have no data on whether or not a Primarch can live 10k years. Making such a claim that "there is no way they could be alive normally" is specious.

All the Primarchs have vanished, been killed in (or put into stasis following a) battle, or turned into a daemon, true. The statements of Russ and Vulkan to the effect that they will return at the End of Days/Wolftime/the Apocalypse, however, indicates that they expect they will live at least that long. And who knows--Corax and the Khan might show up too.



TheKingElessar said:


> The Emperor, yes, Primarchs no, they are but a shadow of His glory. If you're going to claim they are immortal you're going to need quotes.


A burden of proof also lies on you, here: If you're going to claim that they'll die of old age, you need to cite examples--and you have none. The Primarchs are wholly created beings that bleed psychic energy when wounded or beheaded, can (in the case of Magnus, at least) fluctuate in size, are all psychic to some degree (even Russ, psyker-hater, has his psychic bellow that hurts witches alone), have diamond-hard flesh and unknowable organs, etc. They are so far beyond mortal men, and so much closer to the Emperor, that we cannot assign a mortal lifetime to them without explicit data in that regard.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Et al... is it a fluff fact that the Primarchs didn't have the black carapaces installed? Outside of their overall primarchiness, it wouldn't make a lot of sense that the Astares would need the carapace to interface with their armor, but not the primarchs,


As others have said, the Primarchs were designed from the beginning to be the ultimate warriors. It'd be pretty silly if they couldn't interface with their armour. But more than that one of the reasons the Marines need to interface to because the armour provides a lot of things that the Marine doesn't have access to. I'm not necessarily sure that'd be the case with a Primarch.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> OK, another question... why would an Astares need scars for organ implantation, when they basically flay all the skin off their bodies to install the black carapace? It would seem like removing the body panels from a new car so you can install the engine, when you already had just a plane frame sitting there. Not being argumentative, just thinkin'.


I'm guessing it's because the various organs go in at different points in the process and the Black Carapace is one of the last additions made (generally after scout service IIRC).


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Bringing up Void Stalker in regards to Primarch mortality, its hinted at that Curze's increasing mental derangement and horrific visions was caused by his being starting to unravel, the primarch comming apart at the seams and devolving slowly. Which was passed onto Talos.

And which is why I think he chose to die at a time and place of his choosing, instead of waiting to the bitter end and becomming a weak and feeble thing.
In Savage Weapons, Curze seemed like a feral, ghoulish thing to the Lion. 

But its important to place note on that Curze never placed great stock in the chaotic powers and why it is strongly likely that the primarch weakened because of 'natural' causes, instead of outright chaotic influences.

Also, when Leman Russ left the Space Wolves, he stated his life's breath was all but spent, hinting at that he too was possible starting to weaken and degenerate and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory before he became too infirm. Now, with the wulfen curse it can be speculated just what Russ might have devolved into.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

It hasn't been 10k years in the Eye, right? Times moves differently in there. Maybe it's only been a couple thousand years to him, and Primarchs should at the very least least be able to live twice as long as the oldest regular Astartes. I happen to believe they are immortal, but GW is, as usual, vague about that sort of thing, so who knows?

In any case, I don't believe it's Vulkan because Vulkan is on Solemnace in stasis as part of a huge museum built by Trazyn the Infinite.

_Conspiracyyyyyyy!_ :crazy:


Edit: Actually, yeah, come to think of it, Russ was already gone by M32, right? So when did he leave? Bjorn was already in the dread by the time of _Battle of the Fang_ so how old was Russ? If Dante is a thousand years old and still going, there's no way Russ could have been already dying of old age when he left. He would have barely been over 1k years old, if that.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

From what I remember hearing, the last of the primarchs vanished from Imperial space about 1500 years after the Horus Heresy.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> Note that the HH books don't say that Space Marines are immortal--they state that, 250 years into the Great Crusade, no Space Marine has died of old age, and _as far as they can know, Space Marines are functionally immortal_.
> 
> The old age of Logan Grimnir and Dante seems to indicate that they do have a lifespan, albeit a much longer one than a normal human.


I did say "potentially infinite". Hard to live forever if you keep dying in combat though.....


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Also, when Leman Russ left the Space Wolves, he stated his life's breath was all but spent, hinting at that he too was possible starting to weaken and degenerate and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory before he became too infirm. Now, with the wulfen curse it can be speculated just what Russ might have devolved into.


i personally just go by the novel battle of the fang where Bjorn talks about how Russ looked like he had a vision (according to a codex too) and took his most trusted retinues (except Bjorn) and went off into the eye of terror for an unknown reason.
The space wolves Novel also backs up Bjorns story.
The wulfen thing is due to the fact the natives of fenris have wolf DNA spliced into them(The world of fenris provided man in the age of technology a challenge so they tried to overcome it using gene splicing) (According to 1k sons,novel).


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Note that the HH books don't say that Space Marines are immortal--they state that, 250 years into the Great Crusade, no Space Marine has died of old age, and _as far as they can know, Space Marines are functionally immortal_.
> 
> The old age of Logan Grimnir and Dante seems to indicate that they do have a lifespan, albeit a much longer one than a normal human.
> 
> ...


Theres very conflicting fluff on the subject of Space Marine Ageing. 

Many years ago in the deathwing story we had space marines approaching OAP status at just a few hundred years old. Then in the space wolves novels (wolfs honour) we have the 13th company of the Space wolves, who have been on active duty for 10,000 years. To quote the 13th companies wolf priest to an inquisitor acusing them of dancing on the edge of damnation for their "walk around the warp powers", "We've spent the last ten thousand years here, Volt. We've Forgotten more about damnation than you will ever know."

Theres quite a few references from the 13th company to the amount of time theyve been chasing the thousand sons for, and talking about last having fenrisian ale something like 6000 years ago....

It seems that the 13th company arent suffering from the 10,000 years real time passed whilst weve spent 10 weeks in the warp syndrome. Every statement made about the 10,000 years makes it sound as if theyve been fully aware of that passage of most of that time. 

Also the 13th Company are completely confident in Russ being still alive after all that time to quote the lord of the 13th company. Bulveye gave Ragnar a wolfish smile. 'Leman is no more lost than we were,' he replied. ' I don't know where he's gone, but I do know this: he swore an oath to us a very long time ago, and one day he will keep it.'

Longfang (name of the marine rather than the rank) was looking as if he was getting on at just a few hundred years old (white hair and long beard etc), but then Grimnar is 3-4 times as old and could match the same description, so it appears space wolf aging is "odd" at best.

I know in some of the early horus heresey books the phrase "Functionally Immortal" was used a lot to describe the space marines.

Also Bjorns survival as a dreadnought suggests that space marine anatomy has a long life span, his body might have been crippled, but its still "alive" enough to keep him running his dreadnought body. The body might be too crippled to heal enough to fight without the dreadnought but its "alive" enough to keep brain function working 10,000 years later.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

to add to dtq's post i believe Ahriman stated he hasn't aged at all in 200 years, so i guess they 'were' (in WH40K i believe the many different mutations have decreased their life span/sped up the aging process) "functionally immortal".


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Some imperial dreadnoughts go increasingly insane or detached from the physical world, needing longer and longer periods to sleep in. Plus bjorn is kept asleep for most of the time, Prospero Burns had visions of a frozen ice cave where the spirits of dreadnought pilots was hanging out in by a fire, Kaspar Hauser joining them.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Some imperial dreadnoughts go increasingly insane or detached from the physical world, needing longer and longer periods to sleep in. Plus bjorn is kept asleep for most of the time, Prospero Burns had visions of a frozen ice cave where the spirits of dreadnought pilots was hanging out in by a fire, Kaspar Hauser joining them.


Insane is very different to dieing of old age. A machine body and hundreds of years of unending war are likelly to take their toll.

I know Bjorn sleeps most of the time, I read in a novel somewhere recently that the space wolf dreadnoughts have to spend so much of their time asleep to avoid the curse of the Wulfen. Im not sure if Ive heard of other chapter dreadnoughts sleeping most of the time. 

Wasnt kasper stored in stasis at the time or something? as he was at the end of the book? Very good book, suggesting to my reading at least that the space wolves were involved in the deletion of the two "lost" primarchs and chapters... But thats another topic


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> False. We have no data on whether or not a Primarch can live 10k years. Making such a claim that "there is no way they could be alive normally" is specious.


The only lore that I can think of which suggests the contrary is _Codex: Imperialis_: _"...Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years."_


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

1400? Dante and Grimnar pretty much that old


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only lore that I can think of which suggests the contrary is _Codex: Imperialis_: _"...Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years."_


But there not all dead, the dark angels primarch is certainly not really dead, and russ was never confirmed dead, and some are daemon primarchs, that's technically alive


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I have to agree, 1500 doesn't seem old enough. I'm having trouble remembering which book this is in, so if anyone knows, help me out here. I'm fairly certain that it's in 'Salamander', but again not sure. All I remember is that they find a space marine locked behind a door, and that he had been sitting there since just after the heresy. He was the last of his squad alive, and had been sitting there keeping watch over their armor, with the memories of the battle that had slowly killed them off over time. He finally dies in the book, but not before passing on the precious information to the Space marine that finds him. Should no one be able to think of this, I'll site it once I get back home (Away on business currently). That being said, I would think that this should be a good base line for how long a normal SM can live before dying of old age. Primarchs, I would assume, would live well beyond this age. Again, apologize for being so vague.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only lore that I can think of which suggests the contrary is _Codex: Imperialis_: _"...Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years."_


And no fluff has directly contradicted this since - none of it explicitly states they're immortal, so they aren't. *shrug*


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

CPT Killjoy said:


> I have to agree, 1500 doesn't seem old enough. I'm having trouble remembering which book this is in, so if anyone knows, help me out here. I'm fairly certain that it's in 'Salamander', but again not sure. All I remember is that they find a space marine locked behind a door, and that he had been sitting there since just after the heresy. He was the last of his squad alive, and had been sitting there keeping watch over their armor, with the memories of the battle that had slowly killed them off over time. He finally dies in the book, but not before passing on the precious information to the Space marine that finds him. Should no one be able to think of this, I'll site it once I get back home (Away on business currently). That being said, I would think that this should be a good base line for how long a normal SM can live before dying of old age. Primarchs, I would assume, would live well beyond this age. Again, apologize for being so vague.


Yep, that's _Salamander_. Though it implies that the Marine was also vegetative for the bulk of that time and perhaps in a sus-an-membrance trance.

Anyway, with regard to the topic: I like the idea. It's certainly speculated that Vulkan could survive. When I read _Hammer of Daemons_ (and it's a fine book, easily the best of that trilogy) my mind did leap immediately to Vulkan.

Of course, it could be anyone. Any Space Marine who's been in the Eye of Terror long enough could start looking like that. He could be an oddball Iron Hand, a loner Iron Warrior, he could be the last Space Marine, still alive but in the past millions of years after seeing the end of everything, but alive in the Eye knowing how to sort things at the right time.

I like the Vulkan idea, but Vulkan is a huge well of possibilities, but it's also easy to see him everywhere, hiding in every bush and behind every conspiracy. Kudos to the OP, neat conjecture. 

---

*Primarch's Ages*

Bear in mind: the Primarchs are not Space Marines. They're the genetic forebears, but they're _not Space Marines_. They're a different breed of super-human. They're varied, there wasn't an exact cookie cutter for them (as we learn in _Deliverance Lost_ - the Emperor valued variation). 

It's possible that some have innate bits about them that make them live longer/shorter. Perhaps Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius were _capable_ of immortality...but Dorn and Vulkan were very much destined to die. Perhaps Alpharius is nigh unkillable? (A literal head of a legendary hydra: cut him down, two more sprout up!)

The thing is, for all we know of Space Marines, we know almost nothing of the Primarchs. Fabius and such remark on precisely this in the Heresy books. Talos and Variel (IIRC) muse on it in the NL books - they really are wondrous, unique creatures. Even with twenty of them, there's no telling quite what they were capable of and what their limitations are.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

In False Gods, one major reason for Horus' upset, was that he thought he had been created for immortality when he saw the shrine world in the future.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

he was upset because as soon as the erebus showed him a possible future, i.e. after he rebelled and lost, no one worshipped him, he beleived the emperor had less right to be worshipped than Himself, as he felt he did all the hard-work and the Emperor just took the credit.

i think the primarchs are immune to the effects of time, they arent flesh but power,warp and will given form, whoever has read Legion will know that a mortal was given a tiny shard of the emperors power and through it lived TEN THOUSAND years, Malcador lived for a really long time thanks to the emperor too, the aforementioned 2 were only given shards of the emperor while the primarchs are obviously far more substantially gifted.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

With regards to the OP this doesn't seem too far fetched in my mind and is entirely plausible, nice find!


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