# Less Finecast More Plastic



## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey everyone,

I had a quick scan down the forum and could not see this anywhere so apologies if I missed and it is duplicated

I found the following interesting, now I am not sure what other people think to this, could this be the way GW are going, or is it just a take with a pinch of salt rumour that you often see,

What are peoples thoughts, is this something that they would like to see happen, or are people beginning to like Finecast now that GW are getting better at it


http://blog.spikeybits.com/2013/01/...SpikeyBits+(Spikey+Bits)&utm_content=FaceBook


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

This did come up when I was talking to a shop manager mate of mine about 4 months ago. He said that, "in time", the 40k singles would be the same as the fantasy plastic bubble packs.

Until then I am happy enough with Finecast as it has improved markedly in recent times. The only thing I hate about it is it's total lack of resistance to heat. All of my minis suffer some form of warping from the temperatures I live in.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Well I suppose Svart could say something about this given his job without giving anything away that he shouldn't....

... But this wouldn't surprise me. With the increasing detail of the plastics, and the fact they're cheaper to produce it would be logical to move all production to plastic... however, can still see characters etc in finecast for a while due to teh profit margin of its markup.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

It's like a dream come true... and thus I doubt it. This is about what I've always wanted though. I haven't yet had big warping issues but I just don't care for how soft Finecast is period. It's like carving a bar of soap and in the case of the Warpsmith I'm pretty sure I did 50% of the scuplting just trying to get it out and put together. Some of them are better about it but plastic would have made so much more sense for models like that.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

As nice as an all plastic army would be, i dont see how cost effective cutting steel tools for all single characters will be, but maybe we are not thinking this through, maybe we will see a box set with all the characters from one army included? Until the space marine codex is renewed and we see a plastic Marneus Calgar im gonna call for a huge sack of salt for this one


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Oh my sainted aunt, if true this is a dream come true.

I would begin the process of swapping out my Metal Figures for plastic ones.

I'll put the metal figures into the cabinet, while plastic replacements will go onto the table.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

If I recall correctly, word from down on high has been that Finecast has always been a stop-gap to move to plastic.

Now what I -predict- is that Finecast will be eventually limited to character models and we'll see bigger kits go to plastic only. Plastic character kits exist already, and we _might_ see the characters all go plastic eventually, but I don't expect it to be in the next 2-3 years, maybe in the next 5-10 though.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> As nice as an all plastic army would be, i dont see how cost effective cutting steel tools for all single characters will be, but maybe we are not thinking this through, maybe we will see a box set with all the characters from one army included? Until the space marine codex is renewed and we see a plastic Marneus Calgar im gonna call for a huge sack of salt for this one


There are numerous examples of plastic in fantasy so I don't see any cost barriers to this in the long term.

My understanding is that Finecast came about as metal became prohibitively expensive.

Cutting the dies is expensive but obviously actual production costs would be lower.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> There are numerous examples of plastic in fantasy so I don't see any cost barriers to this in the long term.
> 
> My understanding is that Finecast came about as metal became prohibitively expensive.
> 
> Cutting the dies is expensive but obviously actual production costs would be lower.


there are no single named plastic fantasy characters, only generic "hero's" in plastic.
the only named plastic character i can think of is Karl Franz on death claw, and he comes with a dirty great Griffon and two other optional heros included.

Im not sayin i cant happen, im just not convinced that cutting a tool for each character in 40k is a cost effctive way for GW to move, though it has to be said many characters that havent been resculpted do make me ask why they havent done so ? this could be why


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

*Boner!*

But then again I may be biased as I've always prefered plastic


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> there are no single named plastic fantasy characters, only generic "hero's" in plastic.
> the only named plastic character i can think of is Karl Franz on death claw, and he comes with a dirty great Griffon and two other optional heros included.
> 
> Im not sayin i cant happen, im just not convinced that cutting a tool for each character in 40k is a cost effctive way for GW to move, though it has to be said many characters that havent been resculpted do make me ask why they havent done so ? this could be why


Yeh dunno. I just look that WHFB doesn't sell as much as 40k yet they can sustain the plastic mini's, albeit the generic ones so maybe the higher volume will work better for 40k.

Maybe Finecast is to narrow down which ones sell better?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

fantasy sells better than people give it credit for, Empire,Chaos warriors and vampire counts sell very well,Orcs do ok too, the fantasy players tend to be more mature and stick to friend type groups in my experience, but trust me they are out there and in significant numbers. 
like i say, it could happen, but im certainly not going to bet my house on it, 40k and warhammer are different animals with two very different briefs, some units in 40k are finecasted when any fool can see they should be plastic and yet in warhammer fantasy you look at some units and ask how the hell did that get made into plastic and not resin???
I have long thought that many of the 40k units were subsidizing warhammer fantasy's change to plastic in light of the sudden rise in price of white metal after the lead ban in electronics in 2006,after all many of the space marine lines have certainly paid for themselves many many times over and could really use an over haul but GW have kept them in circulation long after they should have been replaced.
i hope it happens but this isnt the first time we have heard this rumour, except it used to be that plastic would one day replace metal,this is just another spin on that rumour.


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

B&K I agree with you on the Character's bit, I can't see these going to Plastic, it would be very expensive as people have said, I think these will remian as Finecast

I can see units going down this line though, we are seeing it more and more in Fantasy, I have a feeling that they are giving the WHFB a total overhall and moving all these to plastic, and as soon as this is done, is when they will start on the 40K Models, so maybe the next 2 years to finish off Warhammer before they make a start on 40K?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

stephen.w.langdon said:


> B&K I agree with you on the Character's bit, I can't see these going to Plastic, it would be very expensive as people have said, I think these will remian as Finecast
> 
> I can see units going down this line though, we are seeing it more and more in Fantasy, I have a feeling that they are giving the WHFB a total overhall and moving all these to plastic, and as soon as this is done, is when they will start on the 40K Models, so maybe the next 2 years to finish off Warhammer before they make a start on 40K?


I certainly hope infantry units get changed and it seems likely, even in the last few years the number of 40k units changed to plastic is quite amazing, though i think a few difficult ones are ahead such as Eldar who have almost all there infantry in resin or metal(yeah i know sisters need it too but they need a complete overhaul). 

Its hard to get excited about this type of rumour because many times in the past we have been left scratching our heads as to why GW have done what they have done with choices about materials and releases, I have been left scratching my head as to why certain units havent been released and why other very obvious units have been left to sit on the shelf.

I could list many units or models that would sell by the truck if they were switched to plastic or produced at all.
One of the most annoying missing models i would say is a plastic terminator captain, what marine player would not want that? a multi part plastic terminator captian,with optional parts/heads/weapons etc?
Chaos have a version with the lord and he sells really well so why did they never do a loyalist version? or better yet a loyalist command group kit, with plastic libby and chaplain, banner bearer, apothacary etc etc?

If I was running GW i would be doing upgrade sprues in plastic for anything space marine related that is popular, so a upgrade spure for ultramarines would be released as a matter of urgency, i just dont get it why one isnt produced, sculpted shoulder pads,banners,helmets and all the trappings that other chapters get but for the smurfs??? it just makes no sense that Dark angels have 4 unique infantry sprues and 2 unique vehicles and yet the Ultras have 1 plastic shoulder pad in the entire range of space marines, now i know Ultras are the everyman of space marines, but the chapter still has its own style and unique iconography but has very little available to set it aside from other codex chapters.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

All plastic would make customization and converting easier. But I don't mind individual models like ICs in Finecast. It's the boxes of 5 or worse the singles when the unit can have 10-20 models.

On that note is there anything in the new DA or CSM codex made of resin that is not a named character?

EDIT: Touché Bits&Kits. Chaos does have some resin kits now that I think harder. But DA only has the named figures, unless you buy the SM Veteran Kits to make a Veteran Squad(LOL). But the new Finecast models look like a better refined process.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Archon Dan said:


> All plastic would make customization and converting easier. But I don't mind individual models like ICs in Finecast. It's the boxes of 5 or worse the singles when the unit can have 10-20 models.
> 
> On that note is there anything in the new DA or CSM codex made of resin that is not a named character?


those close combat oblits , which was a real shame as we had heard rumours for years that the new codex would see plastic oblits.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

I thought the whole point of fine cast was that they could use the metal molds to produce the fine cast. So stuff that's metal, and not re-sculpted gets moved to finecast.

That leaves stuff that *is* re-sculpted, which you would hope would be pretty much everything, eventually. Which should skip finecast, and go direct to plastic.

Is there any evidence of that?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> All plastic would make customization and converting easier. But I don't mind individual models like ICs in Finecast. It's the boxes of 5 or worse the singles when the unit can have 10-20 models.
> 
> On that note is there anything in the new DA or CSM codex made of resin that is not a named character?
> 
> EDIT: Touché Bits&Kits. Chaos does have some resin kits now that I think harder. But DA only has the named figures, unless you buy the SM Veteran Kits to make a Veteran Squad(LOL). But the new Finecast models look like a better refined process.


Lets Start on Chaos as i am more into Chaos than anything else. 

Mutilators/Oblitirators
Iron Warriors upgrade pack (you need the generic plastic tactical squad to make them)
Death Guard
Noise Marines upgrade pack (Same as Iron Warriors)
T-Sons upgrade pack (Same as Iron Warriors)
Havocs upgrade pack (Same as Iron Warriors)

I have been told that these kits are not going to be in plastic for a very long time. It make more money for GW if the Death Guard/Iron Warriors/Noise Marines/T-Sons/Havocs remain as Finecast Resin Upgrade Packs then bring them out in plastic.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

on the topic of the transition, I'm going to side with the people saying finecast was a stop-gap measure to get from metal to plastic.

Though I do sorely miss the OOMPH of the metals 



Magpie_Oz said:


> This did come up when I was talking to a shop manager mate of mine about 4 months ago. He said that, "in time", the 40k singles would be the same as the fantasy plastic bubble packs.
> 
> Until then I am happy enough with Finecast as it has improved markedly in recent times. The only thing I hate about it is it's total lack of resistance to heat. All of my minis suffer some form of warping from the temperatures I live in.


Solution: Move somewhere cooler, like Arizona.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Adramalech said:


> Solution: Move somewhere cooler, like Arizona.


That could be taken a couple of ways....


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Tawa said:


> That could be taken a couple of ways....


Well, Arizona IS a part of the United States of America, and no other nation in the world has Canada for a hat and Mexico for a beard (that means two things!)

So, take from that what you will...

EDIT: It's too bad that our hat does nothing to keep us warm, and our beard is infested with drug-dealing lice....


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

even if plastic singles were the same price as finecast I would still buy it, because of the better detail and heat resistance.


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## Brother Dextus (Jan 30, 2013)

bitsandkits said:


> fantasy sells better than people give it credit for, Empire,Chaos warriors and vampire counts sell very well,Orcs do ok too, the fantasy players tend to be more mature and stick to friend type groups in my experience, but trust me they are out there and in significant numbers.


It's posts like these that make me remember that I also have a skaven army... 

The local games club to where I work is primarily WFB, and Flames... And the more mature gent. And pipes. 

I wish I had a pipe. And a smoking jacket. 

It'd be awesone.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Brother Dextus said:


> It's posts like these that make me remember that I also have a skaven army...
> 
> The local games club to where I work is primarily WFB, and Flames... And the more mature gent. And pipes.
> 
> ...


it is awesome my friend


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

Only got to see Finecast up close for the first time last week and, while the quality is very very good, I am buggered if I am paying close to £10 for one Commissar miniature.

My sanity chip kicked in thankfully.


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## LTP (Apr 15, 2009)

Logaan said:


> Only got to see Finecast up close for the first time last week and, while the quality is very very good, I am buggered if I am paying close to £10 for one Commissar miniature.
> 
> My sanity chip kicked in thankfully.


I agree with that comment. Things like this are silly...

example 

That made me feel a little bit sick. I mean seriously, where do they get off charging £45 for 4 models? Even WG's can't discount it much anymore. 

I have had terrible finecast and awesome finecast but pretty much every plastic product I have purchased GW wise has been excellent. I would much rather spend horrendous amounts of money on that.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Adramalech said:


> Well, Arizona IS a part of the United States of America, and no other nation in the world has Canada for a hat and Mexico for a beard (that means two things!)
> 
> So, take from that what you will...
> 
> EDIT: It's too bad that our hat does nothing to keep us warm, and our beard is infested with drug-dealing lice....


Whereas we Canucks tend to think we're the quiet intellectuals living upstairs from a bunch of gun-toting, wife-beating, NASCAR-lovin', cousin-marryin', outhouse-on-the-front-lawn ******** :wink:....


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Deneris said:


> Whereas we Canucks tend to think we're the quiet intellectuals living upstairs from a bunch of gun-toting, wife-beating, NASCAR-lovin', cousin-marryin', outhouse-on-the-front-lawn ******** :wink:....


Our outhouse is in the _back_ yard, thank you very much...


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Deneris said:


> Whereas we Canucks tend to think we're the quiet intellectuals living upstairs from a bunch of gun-toting, wife-beating, NASCAR-lovin', cousin-marryin', outhouse-on-the-front-lawn ******** :wink:....


Canada is nowhere near London......


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

LTP said:


> I have had terrible finecast and awesome finecast but pretty much every plastic product I have purchased GW wise has been excellent. I would much rather spend horrendous amounts of money on that.


That's what I really don't get with Finecast. If plastic is almost always good and Finecast seems to be 50/50 (so far for me anyway) why even bother with it? It's terrible in the heat, requires far more cleanup, and doesn't seem any more amazing than what they can do with plastic. Unless it cures in seconds I really don't see any big reason to use it over... well things that work.



Deneris said:


> Whereas we Canucks tend to think we're the quiet intellectuals living upstairs from a bunch of gun-toting, wife-beating, NASCAR-lovin', cousin-marryin', outhouse-on-the-front-lawn ******** :wink:....


I swear, the Canadians think we're ******** and the ******** think we're Canadian. No love for the northern states.


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## Brother Dextus (Jan 30, 2013)

Karyudo-DS said:


> That's what I really don't get with Finecast. If plastic is almost always good and Finecast seems to be 50/50 (so far for me anyway) why even bother with it? It's terrible in the heat, requires far more cleanup, and doesn't seem any more amazing than what they can do with plastic. Unless it cures in seconds I really don't see any big reason to use it over... well things that work.


Its the usual adage of GW 'If it aint broke, lets find a way we can break it then come up with a more expensive way of fixing it and then sell that for a tidy profit and claim its better'


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Karyudo-DS said:


> why even bother with it? It's terrible in the heat, requires far more cleanup, and doesn't seem any more amazing than what they can do with plastic. Unless it cures in seconds I really don't see any big reason to use it


It costs less than metal, and uses the same molds. Making new molds costs a fortune compared to re-using old ones. End of story.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Karyudo-DS said:


> That's what I really don't get with Finecast. If plastic is almost always good and Finecast seems to be 50/50 (so far for me anyway) why even bother with it? It's terrible in the heat, requires far more cleanup, and doesn't seem any more amazing than what they can do with plastic. Unless it cures in seconds I really don't see any big reason to use it over... well things that work.


The big reason is the EU legislation on lead content in the metal used to cast miniatures previously has made these mini's much more expensive to produce.

Finecast resin is cheaper and can be made from cheaply produced moulds, rather than the uber expensive injection mould dies that plastic models require.

In short they had to redo the manufacturing process of their metal mini's in quick time and don't want to risk the exposure that investing in plastic dies would entail in the short term. In time however it may well be that plastic replaces resin.

edit: I see that Reaper has just stopped production of a large range of their metal mini's in favour of plastic.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

nevynxxx said:


> It costs less than metal, and uses the same molds. Making new molds costs a fortune compared to re-using old ones. End of story.


Wrong. New molds. The MASTERS were reused, not the molds. Resin doesn't flow like metal which means all the molds had to be redone. The only thing about the molds that carried over is that their still rubber.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Zion said:


> Wrong. New molds. The MASTERS were reused, not the molds. Resin doesn't flow like metal which means all the molds had to be redone. The only thing about the molds that carried over is that their still rubber.


I stand corrected. 

I am correct though, that keeping the master and re-doing the molds is cheaper than re-sculpting and creating a new master aren't I? I also remember something about not being able to use a metal/resin master to make a plastic mold?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

nevynxxx said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> I am correct though, that keeping the master and re-doing the molds is cheaper than re-sculpting and creating a new master aren't I? I also remember something about not being able to use a metal/resin master to make a plastic mold?


yes that's right and the main reason why GW did it. They can quickly move their products away from metal.

A "Plastic Mould" is an entirely different process. Rather than simply casting an impression of the master using rubber a Plastic Injection Mould is a CNC Machined industrial component and so entails a huge design and manufacturing process.

I've heard figures of $250,000 quoted for a simple plastic mould, with the whole design and construct process hitting over $1 Mill


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> yes that's right and the main reason why GW did it. They can quickly move their products away from metal.
> 
> A "Plastic Mould" is an entirely different process. Rather than simply casting an impression of the master using rubber a Plastic Injection Mould is a CNC Machined industrial component and so entails a huge design and manufacturing process.
> 
> I've heard figures of $250,000 quoted for a simple plastic mould, with the whole design and construct process hitting over $1 Mill


If I recall I correctly the plastic Bandblade cost 500,000GBP at the time it was made. And GW just spent a lot of money on new, smaller tooling for the Hobbit line, which means the mold price may go up, but on the flip side we'll be getting even more detailed models in the future since the molds can be even more detailed.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Zion said:


> If I recall I correctly the plastic Bandblade cost 500,000GBP at the time it was made. And GW just spent a lot of money on new, smaller tooling for the Hobbit line, which means the mold price may go up, but on the flip side we'll be getting even more detailed models in the future since the molds can be even more detailed.


and the BIG thing is that a plastic die lasts forever. The minis go out of style before the mould wears out.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Finecast resin is cheaper and can be made from cheaply produced moulds, rather than the uber expensive injection mould dies that plastic models require.


Indeed, I can do conversions with nothing more than a spoon. Cheaper indeed and hopefully incredibly cheap as I'm certainly calling them for new models every time I find one that needs green stuffing to avoid the Swiss-cheese look. So far been about most of the few I've bought so at least I'll have extras.



Brother Dextus said:


> Its the usual adage of GW 'If it aint broke, lets find a way we can break it then come up with a more expensive way of fixing it and then sell that for a tidy profit and claim its better'


Does really feel that way. The move to plastic has in most cases given us much better models. Only plus side to Finecast is that you can convert it easily as long as you have something as sharp as a spoon. Which is sort of nice as that wasn't the case with the metal models they're replacing but the stuff seems so cheap that that's not entirely a good thing anyway. I get having the abandon metal quickly enough to save their model lines but part of me wonders if they considered the sturdy Papercraft solution.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Papercraft solution?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Karyudo-DS said:


> Indeed, I can do conversions with nothing more than a spoon. Cheaper indeed and hopefully incredibly cheap as I'm certainly calling them for new models every time I find one that needs green stuffing to avoid the Swiss-cheese look. So far been about most of the few I've bought so at least I'll have extras.


Certainly the first lot were like that but recently I have been "batting 100" with some really nice mini's with 0 defects.

I've even had one that had a defect but the replacement part was included in the bubble pack.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

The fine cast process has been refined, im finding the resin firmer and the vents and sprue are thicker than they were and very very very few bubbles. But had the occasional un fixable part, but on the whole i think we have been pretty lucky, some of the stuff that made it to market and gave fine cast a bad name should never have left the factory, but i dont think finecast was half as bad as the interwebs made out. 

would still swap it for all plastic given a chance though.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Certainly the first lot were like that but recently I have been "batting 100" with some really nice mini's with 0 defects.
> 
> I've even had one that had a defect but the replacement part was included in the bubble pack.


Indeed, the Warp Smith I picked up seemed mostly defect free...aside from the atrocity of assembling it. Really seemed like with plastic or metal it would have been down to a science but in Finecast it seemed like there was a bit of extra work. Though I wouldn't blame the resin for that.

The Techmarine on the other hand had 5 holes in his axe arm, pitting on the legs which wasn't bad, but the hole behind his eye-piece...well that made me glad I wanted to replace the head anyway. No idea how early it was made and the second one they sent looked fine minus some minor pitting that'll get painted over anyway.



bitsandkits said:


> ... But had the occasional un fixable part, but on the whole i think we have been pretty lucky, some of the stuff that made it to market and gave fine cast a bad name should never have left the factory, but i dont think finecast was half as bad as the interwebs made out.
> 
> would still swap it for all plastic given a chance though.


I remember seeing some of the early Eldar...really made me glad I had metal as Eldrad looked like a mess. One I could work with but why pay extra for more work? Overall the defects don't bother me much there or not as GW seems good about replacements. Of course its easier to avoid those in person but the defects aren't so much my issue. Some of the models just seem overly fragile (the paper craft reference). Might be my over protective imagination but plastics feel more sturdy and in my cases went together better.

I would like to see them move to plastic, mostly because the DV Chaplain was awesome.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

On the subject of Finecast i notice that if Finecast is supposedly to be a stopgap then i don't understand why so many new kits are coming out in Finecast like these.

Vilitch, The Curseling
Throgg
Goblin King, thowing a Goblin
Elrond
Yazneg
Radagast

I am no expert on the time frame on how long it takes to design a figure to production. However, surely GW had enough time to get plastic moulds ready for production.

Just looking at the quality of the Chaos Lord which is plastic to Vilitch which is Finecast their seems to be no difference, so why not make a plastic Vilitch and the other above from the start.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> On the subject of Finecast i notice that if Finecast is supposedly to be a stopgap then i don't understand why so many new kits are coming out in Finecast like these.
> 
> Vilitch, The Curseling
> Throgg
> ...


I think the problem is not so much time as it is money.

If you have to drop $1mill on each injection mould then a big release like The Hobbit becomes prohibitively expensive.

This is exacerbated by the relatively short lived life cycle of speciality ranges like the hobbit. They may not be around long enough to move enough stock to pay for themselves.

A generic Chaos Lord is likely to sell more than a unique Vilitch ?


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> yes that's right and the main reason why GW did it. They can quickly move their products away from metal.
> 
> A "Plastic Mould" is an entirely different process. Rather than simply casting an impression of the master using rubber a Plastic Injection Mould is a CNC Machined industrial component and so entails a huge design and manufacturing process.
> 
> I've heard figures of $250,000 quoted for a simple plastic mould, with the whole design and construct process hitting over $1 Mill


$250,000? Source?

EDIT: I've been doing some feedback-gathering and the cost would depend on the size, depth and number of the frame(s) to be produced by the tooling, and the desired lifespan of the tooling itself, and $500,000 is certainly not out of the ballpark for the tooling, but the plastic itself is rather inexpensive.

In regards to your other post about production being prohibitively expensive: Even if the total production cost of 800,000 escape from goblin town box sets is as much as $5mil (my actual guess is at $2.5mil, but I know nothing, so let's risk grossly overestimating instead), GW only have to sell 5% of them to break even.



Deneris said:


> Whereas we Canucks tend to think we're the quiet intellectuals living upstairs from a bunch of gun-toting, wife-beating, NASCAR-lovin', cousin-marryin', outhouse-on-the-front-lawn ******** :wink:....


No, actually New Englanders and Northern Midwesterners live upstairs from those people. We in Colorado live adjacent to them on both sides, and downstairs AND upstairs from them (as you can imagine, this is rather stressful for us), and you live upstairs from the New Englanders, Northern Midwesterners (who might as well be Canadian themselves), and Washingtonians.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Adramalech said:


> $250,000? Source?
> 
> EDIT: I've been doing some feedback-gathering and the cost would depend on the size, depth and number of the frame(s) to be produced by the tooling, and the desired lifespan of the tooling itself, and $500,000 is certainly not out of the ballpark for the tooling, but the plastic itself is rather inexpensive.
> 
> In regards to your other post about production being prohibitively expensive: Even if the total production cost of 800,000 escape from goblin town box sets is as much as $5mil (my actual guess is at $2.5mil, but I know nothing, so let's risk grossly overestimating instead), GW only have to sell 5% of them to break even.


There are 2 issues there.

1. Exposure. Large companies like GW have a very difficult time taking on new things, equipment product lines and all that sort of thing because of the amount of capital and resources that get tied up in the process.

2. Not sure how you get your break even figure. Don't forget that for each mini sold there are a huge number of people who have to be paid out of each sale. beyond straight materials there are 100's of employees to be paid, 100's of transport and shipping movements, 1000's of rents on shops, electricity bills, die casting etc etc etc.

The margin is the key and I don't know what the margin is on GW products in most business models a 10% return is a pretty good one.

Profit does not = Price of production - number of box sets x price of box sets


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

I'm from Automotive, Plastic Functioning Parts for Automotive to be exact, I buy tools for a living.

Those $1 million tooling figures you guys are throwing about are far too high.

You can get a Multi Shot Tool that will produce the type of frames GW sell for around $150,000 - $250,000 (that's all in not just the actual tool) and from Chinese toolmakers you can shave a lot off that and believe me people do and you get the same results.

Yes tooling is expensive, but not THAT expensive.

As for production once you have the press size range you are not using one machine for each model the tools will be interchangeable based on press size and availability.

GW will already have a selection of press sizes for the size of tool required, so once the tool is bought to run off say 1,000,000 parts they could do that in a week at normal operating costs for the factory and this will already be factored in to the eventual selling price of the mini along with material and labour cost.

Edit FYI one of my suppliers has GW listed as one of their customers, next time I am there might see what they are doing for them :grin:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Durant said:


> Those $1 million tooling figures you guys are throwing about are far too high.


I guess what I am meaning for those dollars is the all up costs from Chief Model Type Decider Dude at GW saying "Hey we need a New Plastic Miniature" to the Production Line Press Controller Dude going "OK let her rip !"


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I guess what I am meaning for those dollars is the all up costs from Chief Model Type Decider Dude at GW saying "Hey we need a New Plastic Miniature" to the Production Line Press Controller Dude going "OK let her rip !"


Yeah, once you start going into that much detail you can ask how long a piece of string is!

The guys making the decisions, the guys designing the models, doing the marketing etc will not just be spending time on that one mini, so their combined salaries may be $750,000 (figure for arguments sake) but only a fraction of that will be on this model line. 

Makes a change being able to make a contribution in here as I have zero knowledge on the actual game so sat on fence most the time LOL (I like the models and the fluff)

Company I work for looked to branch out in other areas after the '08 crash as sole customers were automotive and we took massive kicking, we are now into medical as well, but damn wish I had mentioned GW at the time! I could have been able to swipe a few minis off the line and raid scrap bins for conversion parts. (Dreaming now!)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Durant said:


> Yeah, once you start going into that much detail you can ask how long a piece of string is!


Yeh but the two pieces of string are

"Oi Svart! go an make a mould of this for Finecast" -tosses old master of a metal mini at Svart's head ... and hits! - 

as compared to

"Errrr lets start the process to get a new mini onto the shelves in a couple of years"

Great to have your specialist input on the plastics Biz too by the way and if you DO manage to pick up some GW work for your company, I trust you'll remember who gave you the idea .............. :wink:


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> On the subject of Finecast i notice that if Finecast is supposedly to be a stopgap then i don't understand why so many new kits are coming out in Finecast like these.


stopgap may be the wrong word, we're talking 5 ish years here, not a year or so


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## Worthy (Feb 10, 2013)

My personal experiences of finecast have been a bit hit and miss, but nothing major like the bad stories you hear. I guess that's because all my finecastle models so far are from blister packs.

On the one hand my Finecast Skulltaker was perfect and had no problems whatsoever.

On the otherhand my Dark Apostle had alot of fragile bits like scrolls, the staff and the chaos icon on top which was no biggie really he's a Khorne red priest anyway, so I would have replaced the icon for a Khorn one and made him look different anyway... that being said the staff looks like a fairy wand now because I shortend it (it kept snapping in the middle).

I prefer plastic to finecast myself (just look at how detailed them DV box models look).


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Worthy said:


> On the otherhand my Dark Apostle had alot of fragile bits like scrolls...


Pity they can't just pour plastic into these molds because even that would at least yield more durable material. My Smith is fine, but I've been careful to no end with it.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Durant said:


> I'm from Automotive, Plastic Functioning Parts for Automotive to be exact, I buy tools for a living.
> 
> Those $1 million tooling figures you guys are throwing about are far too high.
> 
> ...


Well if that's the case then they have to sell fewer than 40,000 out of a run of 800,000 kits with an MSRP of $125 to break even.

If your post is true, my point is more than proven.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Adramalech said:


> Well if that's the case then they have to sell fewer than 40,000 out of a run of 800,000 kits with an MSRP of $125 to break even.
> 
> If your post is true, my point is more than proven.


GW also relies on a mold budget. They don't spend more than a certain amout each fiscal year (likely divided into quarters) on new molds. So while they _can_ generally recoup the costs on most molds fairly quickly, the Finecast ones, being made of rubber, cut into that budget less than the steel molds used for plastic models, thus allowing more models to be released at a time since they can afford to make more new kits.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Zion said:


> GW also relies on a mold budget. They don't spend more than a certain amout each fiscal year (likely divided into quarters) on new molds. So while they _can_ generally recoup the costs on most molds fairly quickly, the Finecast ones, being made of rubber, cut into that budget less than the steel molds used for plastic models, thus allowing more models to be released at a time since they can afford to make more new kits.


that makes more sense than tooling for plastics being prohibitively expensive overall. 

I think I can finally accept that GW is doing great despite the generally shitty economy because they manage their money wisely... and also because they gouge the hell out of us, but I digress....


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I suppose there is that aspect and that it, unlike say scale models which it is an industry standard that manufacturers often buy/sell unused or outdated (for refurbishment) Steel Molds for Plastic Injection to other manufacturers, example might me Revell selling 1/72nd Spitfire tooling to say Airfix.

But unlike the above example GW can't say sell it's old tooling to another manufacturer, because there is no one else.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> Well if that's the case then they have to sell fewer than 40,000 out of a run of 800,000 kits with an MSRP of $125 to break even.
> 
> If your post is true, my point is more than proven.


Just because they can do 1,000,000 in a week doesn't mean they will. They probably mold on demand or to projected sales figures.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Heresy - Reverse engineering *your* business plan, one step at a time!

:grin:


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