# Was Angron retarded? (in context of comparison of his comparative kin)



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

After reading countless documents regarding angron, such as "Angron" "betrayer" "raven's flight", etc etc. I have come to the conclusion that Games Workshop designed Angron with the intent of being mentally "retarded", I use this word to its' full psychological definition. That Angron was below the average level of intelligence relative to his social comparison.

Furthermore it seems Black Library went out of their way to attribute to him a plethora of physically and behaviorally displayed symptoms that are often seen in retarded individuals, mostly through brain damage in various lobes. 

The red eyes, the constant slobbering, twitching face and muscles, along the inability to focus upon any subject for long without the constant desire to do something else. 

I just find it interesting that even among primarchs who are super humans, yet humans among one another that Angron was the retarded one of them. Which I suppose makes sense, you have some which are entirely narcissistic, others that are experiencing delusions of grandeur, paranoia and so forth.

Your thoughts?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah I'm pretty sure the implants had nothing to do with it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@title: yeah just no.

I will say that not even ADB could save Angron from GW's established lore on him. It's not the authors fault, there is simply only so much you can do with Angron before changing his story radically.

In Betrayer, he and his legion were still incapable of forming any battle tactics and blindly charged into the fray losing hundreds.

IMO there still was never any reason for the Emperor to send the WE in when you could have controlled fury/savagery (Wolves/Blood Angels). 

It was almost like they were made simply so that the other better legions would not have to lose men. A cannon fodder legion.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> @title: yeah just no.
> 
> I will say that not even ADB could save Angron from GW's established lore on him. It's not the authors fault, there is simply only so much you can do with Angron before changing his story radically.
> 
> ...


Why waste time on tactics when blindly charging in works just as well.

Personally I blame that rubics cube more than anything else.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It doesn't work just as well because you have to constantly bolster your numbers after unnecessary losses.

There was a reason the other 19 legions did not imitate Angron's tactics.

Also they were like this even before the implants. The implants just worsened things.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well I do think by the definition of one being retarded that Angron fit it perfectly, his tactics, plans, and processing of information was drastically below that of all his brothers and below that of the humans that served him (such as the ship captain, and some of his astartes).

Angron was unable to recognize or process that his tactics were inefficient, additionally he was unable to understand and process abstract forms of thinking. Particularly when he was recalling his fight with Russ and the wolves, Lorgar tells him that he is a foolish being for being unable to even see that he lost that fight entirely. Yet all Angron could reconigze due to his diminished mental processes, was that "Oh I punched russ more and he was on the ground longer". He was never able to see the tactics russ used, as well as that at any moment during that fight Russ could have killed him. Lorgar confirmed this, additionally Angron believed his forces kill more wolves yet Lorgar states that from every other source he knew, that it was the wolves who won the ground war too.

Angron is just unable to mentally see things beyond simple configurations, he is unable to process anything in regards to quantitative or abstract thinking.

Angron often times is depicted in both behavior, and thinking as a child. The body of a warrior with the mind of s stunted child stuck forever in childhood. He ruminates upon the same emotionally ques constantly, never able to even understand why he does so and why it bothers him. 

Angron, the retarded child of the primarchs.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I would think Angron had brain damage. This no doubt reduced his cognitive capacity, in all senses I don't think he would qualify as mentally retarded though. Also the symptons you list are not actually associated with mental retardation but other disorders 

Unfortunately we don't understand the physiology of primarchs enough to say more

The World Eaters were the emperors terror shock troops. Those whose reputation would stop wars before they happened, or a weapon to be exhausted to utterly destroy a foe. The emperor did not care about loses of destroyed legions, he was just concerned about his final objective


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Barnster said:


> I would think Angron had brain damage. This no doubt reduced his cognitive capacity, in all senses I don't think he would qualify as mentally retarded though. Also the symptons you list are not actually associated with mental retardation but other disorders
> 
> Unfortunately we don't understand the physiology of primarchs enough to say more
> 
> The World Eaters were the emperors terror shock troops. Those whose reputation would stop wars before they happened, or a weapon to be exhausted to utterly destroy a foe. The emperor did not care about loses of destroyed legions, he was just concerned about his final objective


He actually displays many symptoms of mental retardation, unable to process abstract thinking. Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it, in addition to being unable to grasp and process large quantitative lines of thinking. 

Unable to focus upon a single subject for long, can be associated with OCD but is often seen in individuals with retardation in that they are unable to process something and thus lose interest in it quickly. Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You being adamant that angron is retarded made me laugh. +2 and well played for baiting me.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

:laugh: This made my evening.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You being adamant that angron is retarded made me laugh. +2 and well played for baiting me.


It's not just Angron, I think all of the Primarchs are severely disturbed in each their own ways. In Angron's particular case it is just blatantly apparent that he displays many, many symptoms of mental retardation. 

Now whether this retardation stems from his cranial implants, or a genetic predisposition, or he was retarded from birth is up for discussion.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Lux said:


> He actually displays many symptoms of mental retardation, unable to process abstract thinking. Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it, in addition to being unable to grasp and process large quantitative lines of thinking.
> 
> Unable to focus upon a single subject for long, can be associated with OCD but is often seen in individuals with retardation in that they are unable to process something and thus lose interest in it quickly. Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.



Difficulty with abstract thought is also associated with schizophrenia, depression, conduct disorder, OCD, ADHD, and many many other cognitive impairments 

OCD is rarely linked to low attention 

Twitchyness is linked to nerve damage or brain damage, most likely due to the nails


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Difficulty with abstract thought is also associated with schizophrenia, depression, conduct disorder, OCD, ADHD, and many many other cognitive impairments
> 
> OCD is rarely linked to low attention
> 
> Twitchyness is linked to nerve damage or brain damage, most likely due to the nails


Individually yes those symptoms can be attributed to a myriad of disorders and conditions, however when occurring in comorbidity with one another they are often found in patients suffering from retardation.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I dunno, another aspect of mental retardation is that you are usually good at one thing.

Angron's really good at tearing things apart.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Rereading certain text regarding Angron, I came across several lines that display his severely limited capacity for speech. Angron when attempting to communicate with his brother logar spoke thus "BRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAATHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR, uuunnnnnnnggggg braaaaaathhhhhhhhhhh......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh".

As you can see angron displays severe limited capacities in speech and ability to express himself coherent, and effectively to others. Lorgar even commented towards angron many times in the manner of "poor poor angron, foolish angron!". Due to angron's inability intellectually, and mentally to understand the simple concepts he was attempting to explain to him.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> I have come to the conclusion that Games Workshop designed Angron with the intent of being mentally "retarded",


I doubt GW designed Angron to be anything other than the "Khorne Primarch" and that's why he's a poorly developed character.



> I use this word to its' full psychological definition.


Given that that term isn't used anymore, and the term that has replaced it (General Learning Disability) is only diagnosable in adolescence, you really aren't. 



> The red eyes,


Wait, what? Red eyes are a sign of cognitive problems? Since when? The pigmentation of your eyes is completely separate from the cognitive development and processing abilities of your brain. 



Lux said:


> unable to process abstract thinking.


Unable or unwilling? This is also seen in pragmatic and practical individuals, such as Perturabo whom I would call one of the most intelligent Primarchs. 



> Constant focus upon the concept of self with no understanding of anything outside of it,


Like "I'm-The-Most-Perfect-Thing-Ever" Fulgrim, or "Boo-Is-Me" Lorgar, or "Damn-I'm-Soo-Clever" Magnus or half a dozen other Primarchs you mean?



> Unable to focus upon a single subject for long,


I haven't seen this in Angron, indeed I see quite the opposite. Angron craves, at all times, to be causing violence. This is a single subject and he is almost obsessively fixated on it. That he would rather be causing violence than doing anything else, and therefore that other things are less interesting to him, is a sign of serious emotional problems but not a sign of cognitive issues.



> Twitchy face along with muscles is seen in many patients with brain damage, or a nerve disorder.


As well as in people who are angry. Angron is always angry thanks to the Nails and is therefore often twitchy.



Lux said:


> Now whether this retardation stems from his cranial implants, or a genetic predisposition, or he was retarded from birth is up for discussion.


Given that the Nails have been explicitly stated to have eaten away at his mind, and that this can be seen in the change of his behaviour, I think it's pretty clear that any cognitive problems are the result of brain-damage caused by the Butcher's Nails.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Yeah, all of the things Lux has stated have been attributed to the Nails hammered into his skull. They weren't made with a primarchs brain in mind after all. I believe Lorgar stated in Betrayer that because neither the Nails damaging effects nor Angrons primarch healing were winning against the other, it was slowly killing Angron.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Like "I'm-The-Most-Perfect-Thing-Ever" Fulgrim, or "Boo-Is-Me" Lorgar, or "Damn-I'm-Soo-Clever" Magnus or half a dozen other Primarchs you mean?


Because of this, I am now imagining all the Primarchs as expies of Duke Nukem; "Damn, I'm good" and variations thereof.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Protoss119 said:


> Because of this, I am now imagining all the Primarchs as expies of Duke Nukem; "Damn, I'm good" and variations thereof.


It all makes sense now. 

One of the missing primarchs is duke nukem he sensed what as going to happen so he sent himself back in time to stop it.

All his games are him trying to save the imperium. except for DNF that's tzeentch trying to trick us.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux you have had some wild insane mad retarded theories but this is the first one I have found completely laughable.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Angron wasn't retarded per see, but he was at least mentally stunted. Then again the fault of the Primarches was Empy giving them human minds in godlike bodies.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I think the implants did some damage to his brain. Even in the book "Betrayer", he was dying from the implants according to Lorgar...which is part of the reason why Lorgar wanted to make Angron into a deamon. 

When it comes to battle tactics the world eaters were more than berserkers . They had some sense of battle formation but compared to other legions they were probably allot 
more raw but again I think this is because each of the world eaters also had implants.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

"Given that that term isn't used anymore, and the term that has replaced it (General Learning Disability) is only diagnosable in adolescence, you really aren't."

-I take it you are not a practitioner in the field of mental health nor licensed? It would make sense seeing as your statement is entirely false, the diagnosis of retardation is still used around the globe to this present date (5/23/2013). Additionally, it is used for all ranges depending upon their intelligence assessment score, depending on their score they are diagnosed with a degree of retardation. Where do I derive my answers from? Years of field experience being a licensed clinical therapist.

"Wait, what? Red eyes are a sign of cognitive problems? Since when? The pigmentation of your eyes is completely separate from the cognitive development and processing abilities of your brain. "

-Again this is entirely inaccurate, retardation is merely the diagnosis not the cause. Many variables can bring about a degree of retardation in an individual, ranging from genetics, to physiological predispositions, injuries, or exposure to certain substances. Physical trauma, even physiological predispositions can cause what is known as Hyphema, this is when bleeding is occurring in the anterior chamber of the eye between the cornea and the iris. Why is this seen in some patients of retardation? Most often it is seen in patients that have suffered trauma to the cranial region, which is why it is a comorbid effect as I stated earlier. They are not exclusive to one another, but when a myriad of symptoms are presented together in conjunction to diminished cognitive ability and low intelligence score it is likely a degree of retardation.


"Unable or unwilling? This is also seen in pragmatic and practical individuals, such as Perturabo whom I would call one of the most intelligent Primarchs." 

-Again you are entirely inaccurate, pragmatism is merely a paradigm. Pragmatism or practicality does not correlate with intelligence, however ability to conduct abstract thinking and to the degree that person is able to do so is correlated to intelligence. Angron lacks all ability to contemplate and or process any level of abstract thinking that goes beyond the level of physicality, he was unable to even process his interaction with Russ beyond the two of them physically hitting one another. Repeatedly Angron demonstrates the inability to understand concepts conveyed to him through intangible conveyances, allegories, contextual variables, all are entirely non existent to him. 


"Like "I'm-The-Most-Perfect-Thing-Ever" Fulgrim, or "Boo-Is-Me" Lorgar, or "Damn-I'm-Soo-Clever" Magnus or half a dozen other Primarchs you mean?"

-All humans display symptoms of "disorders/maladptions", it does not mean they are likely to be diagnosed with one. Individuals need to meet a certain number of symptoms for a disorder, and sustain those symptoms for a set period of time chronically (generally) to even garner a diagnosis. Your comment here means very little in regards to what we are discussing, Angron unlike the others is displaying high degrees of comorbidity among a myriad of symptoms for retardation. 



"I haven't seen this in Angron, indeed I see quite the opposite. Angron craves, at all times, to be causing violence. This is a single subject and he is almost obsessively fixated on it. That he would rather be causing violence than doing anything else, and therefore that other things are less interesting to him, is a sign of serious emotional problems but not a sign of cognitive issues."

-Angron isn't fixated on violence as a concept, he is fixated on an escape from his lack of ability to cope and process what his core issues are. He is unable to process the abstract situation that he is in intellectually, due to lacking the intellectual intelligence to rationalize his emotions to begin with. Angron's locus of attention is greatly dispersed, which is due to his train of thought and ability to form coherent blocks of memory being disrupted from a lack of proper sleep (Betrayer).


"As well as in people who are angry. Angron is always angry thanks to the Nails and is therefore often twitchy."

- Anger does not produce the facial and muscle twitches that are described in the book, furthermore anger does not produce nerve misfirings to the degree that Angron displays in such a chronic manner. The chemicals produced from anger inherently do not cause or bring about synapse degradation in such a chronic manner, however where this is seen is in people with damaged lobes of the brain, often temporal of occipital.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> -I take it you are not a practitioner in the field of mental health nor licensed? It would make sense seeing as your statement is entirely false, the diagnosis of retardation is still used around the globe to this present date (5/23/2013). Additionally, it is used for all ranges depending upon their intelligence assessment score, depending on their score they are diagnosed with a degree of retardation. Where do I derive my answers from? Years of field experience being a licensed clinical therapist.
> 
> -Again this is entirely inaccurate, retardation is merely the diagnosis not the cause. Many variables can bring about a degree of retardation in an individual, ranging from genetics, to physiological predispositions, injuries, or exposure to certain substances. Physical trauma, even physiological predispositions can cause what is known as Hyphema, this is when bleeding is occurring in the anterior chamber of the eye between the cornea and the iris. Why is this seen in some patients of retardation? Most often it is seen in patients that have suffered trauma to the cranial region, which is why it is a comorbid effect as I stated earlier. They are not exclusive to one another, but when a myriad of symptoms are presented together in conjunction to diminished cognitive ability and low intelligence score it is likely a degree of retardation.
> 
> - Anger does not produce the facial and muscle twitches that are described in the book, furthermore anger does not produce nerve misfirings to the degree that Angron displays in such a chronic manner. The chemicals produced from anger inherently do not cause or bring about synapse degradation in such a chronic manner, however where this is seen is in people with damaged lobes of the brain, often temporal of occipital.



And you are a psychiatrists....dear god tell me where, so I can start a petition to get your doctorate/license revoked.

Red eyes can be causes by a burst blood vessel, my friend had one. Conjunctivitis, at least in dogs. Blepharitis.

Facial ticks can be caused by sever stress and anxiety, trust me with that.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

All I have to say is... I pity the fool...


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Interesting, but a lot of characters often have this. Cardinals, venerable Techpriest, and other old, rich, pompous characters are often portrayed as retarded with age. Guess the Primarchs are no exception?


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

I would love to see the first person that said this to Angron....... 

As for being "retarded" i think not.... psychotic yes but retarded no.....


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

Angron going on Freudian therapy would be lots of laughs.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

All of the primarchs were special, but none more so than Angron


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Angron's fall to Chaos was a result of his having gone full retard. Everybody knows you don't go full retard.






Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Konrad Curze, destruction of Nostramo. Remember? Went full retard...went home empty-handed.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i think Angron was damaged after being captured by those who hammered the nails into his skull, decades of killing to live another day is bound to have had some effect on the psyche, it was almost like he was in a constant state of post traumatic stress disorder, and being seperated from his brothers and sisters at the time of thier deaths, even if it was for reasons of being rejoined with his legion, was against his will and had a long term effect on him too.

I do not believe he was retarted, there were times he did show some clarity of thought and for a little while it seemed that Khan and the Captain could reach him, he even showed compassion for the human hot wired into her console, so he had that in him, he just did not show it very often. 

There is only so much one can do with a character that is preordained to become the son of Khorne but ADB did it well enough and has made Angron more then what is written on paper. I think his trains of thought were not helped by the hammering of the nails, and it certainly was not helped by those brothers who saw him and his legion as nothing more than cannon fodder, in fact i believe that in Angron and the World Eaters case it was break only in cases of extreme armageddon.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Retarded/demented/deformed/red-eyed stoner/snott-nosed punk, he certainly competed outside the realm of the Special Olympics. Aside from that one arguable fight with Russ, Angron was one of the greatest warriors of the Primarchs. That's what makes the 'retarded' label weak for me, even in context to his brothers... like having a UFC champion who gets criticized after the fight for not booking his flight home correctly.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Years of field experience being a licensed clinical therapist.


I really hope this isn't true. Given that you incorrectly use the term retarded in your posts and also incorrectly use the term "comorbidity" later on in this one, as well as all the other crazy theories you've made in the past.



> Again this is entirely inaccurate, retardation is merely the diagnosis not the cause.


If, as you state, "retardation" can be diagnosed from red-eyes than red-eyes are a potential sign of cognitive problems. Which is what I said. How is that even remotely inaccurate?



> Why is this seen in some patients of retardation? Most often it is seen in patients that have suffered trauma to the cranial region,


Cranial trauma... like having a hunk of metal nailed into his brain you mean?



> Pragmatism or practicality does not correlate with intelligence,


Exactly my point.



> Angron lacks all ability to contemplate and or process any level of abstract thinking that goes beyond the level of physicality,


Does he lack the ability or does he simply not make use of it? Angron's personality is not such that he would be prone to introspection or abstract thinking. But that doesn't mean he's dumb, just straight-forward.



> Angron isn't fixated on violence as a concept,


Sure he is. He enjoys fighting, both as a release and as a concept, and seeks to do it as much as possible. He doesn't engage in violence because he's frustrated with his own lack of mental abilities but rather because it is something he wants to be doing.



> Angron's locus of attention is greatly dispersed, which is due to his train of thought and ability to form coherent blocks of memory being disrupted from a lack of proper sleep (Betrayer).


So is the fact that he can't sleep properly a symptom or a result of his being "retarded"? I've never heard of it being either, which means you just shot your own argument in the foot.



> The chemicals produced from anger inherently do not cause or bring about synapse degradation in such a chronic manner


They do if they're present in larger amounts and over a greater time than would be normal. Given that the Nails are categorically stated to amplify both the physiological intensity and duration of the angered state they would also, over time, cause a breakdown in certain cognitive processes.


Though really I don't know why I'm arguing with you. The general consensus is, as it generally is, against you Lux and it's not like any kind of logic on my part is going to change that maze of paradigm shifts you call a mind, so I suppose it's all wasted effort. Oh well, gotta kill time somehow.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

"I really hope this isn't true. Given that you incorrectly use the term retarded in your posts and also incorrectly use the term "comorbidity" later on in this one, as well as all the other crazy theories you've made in the past."

- The application of the word in the previous post of which I deployed it in, is viable; comorbidity is either the presence of one or more disorders (or diseases) in addition to a primary disease or disorder, or the effect of such additional disorders or diseases to the primary diagnosis. Your perception of events seems to highly inaccurate, perhaps you should review your previous post.


"If, as you state, "retardation" can be diagnosed from red-eyes than red-eyes are a potential sign of cognitive problems. Which is what I said. How is that even remotely inaccurate?"

-I question your very nature of perception, and often wonder if the primary reason you respond is not to enjoy intellectual analysis of the primarch Angron...but rather merely to engage in aggressive bouts of verbalized "logic" to satisfy your own fulfillment. If you could please show me where I stated that red-eyes are a potential sign of cognitive problems? However I did clearly state that in patients who are diagnosed with a degree of retardation, one symptom that is at times present is Hyphema. This is when there is bleeding in the anterior chamber of the eye between the cornea and the iris. This bleeding into the anterior chamber of the eye is called a hyphema. I also clarified this is often seen in patients diagnosed with retardation that suffered physical trauma to the cranial section. 

"Cranial trauma... like having a hunk of metal nailed into his brain you mean?"

-Have I ever stated that the cranial trauma is not a cause or factor in the cause of a degree of retardation? I merely stated that Angron is likely retarded. How in anyway does this take away from my statement?



Exactly my point.



"Does he lack the ability or does he simply not make use of it? Angron's personality is not such that he would be prone to introspection or abstract thinking. But that doesn't mean he's dumb, just straight-forward."

-Being retarded, and straight-forward are two entirely different concepts, Angron has displayed the inability to process abstract thinking or the ability to process large quantitative scenarios. Such as battle logistics, or simple numbers, losses for his forces, strategy, non physical verbal ques, allegories, all of this is entirely alien to him. It is made very clear throughout all of Betrayer and other text that Angron is not even aware of the concepts that others attempt to communicate with him. It is not that he is not trying, for he is very much trying to understand Lorgar when he is explaining Russ to him. He just is unable to mentally process abstract thinking, and anything that is beyond the scope of his own self, of which once again is often seen in patients that never progressed beyond certain stages of psychological growth. 

The very ability to process and relate the world and its concepts, beyond their own self as the locus of control is something every human child goes through during the developmental stages of growth. Angron being retarded however, would explain why he did not. He became retarded at a young age, a child, thus his brain never experienced the progression beyond the stage of "awareness of self".



"Sure he is. He enjoys fighting, both as a release and as a concept, and seeks to do it as much as possible. He doesn't engage in violence because he's frustrated with his own lack of mental abilities but rather because it is something he wants to be doing."

-In betrayer Angron states very clearly, the sole reason he fights is as a way so he can "sleep", so he can escape the pain of living. There is nothing else to be really said here, he doesn't enjoy killing, he enjoys the escape from reality and suffering that he derives from doing the killing



"So is the fact that he can't sleep properly a symptom or a result of his being "retarded"? I've never heard of it being either, which means you just shot your own argument in the foot."

-Where do you derive your statements from? Lack of sleep means he is never able to process memory correctly, when humans sleep they go through several stages. Of which the brain process memories and experiences that you experienced in "Blocks". Without the processing of these blocks, accessing these memories or more importantly accessing their neural pathways becomes highly erratic for the brain to do so.


"Though really I don't know why I'm arguing with you. The general consensus is, as it generally is, against you Lux and it's not like any kind of logic on my part is going to change that maze of paradigm shifts you call a mind, so I suppose it's all wasted effort. Oh well, gotta kill time somehow."

-You choose to respond, for you had something to project, some thing to prove if not others then to yourself. Every response is a validation of ones of motivations in one way or another.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Over time the World Eaters descended into the same killing frenzy as their father, they did not like thier father, they were the last legion to be reunited with thier Primarch and by the time they were reunited with him, he was flawed.

He might have been handsome once, he might have stood as proud as Horus or any of the others but he had been treated no better than an animal, something kept for sport for the majority of his youth, of course this is going to change how he sees the world. 

He was not "educated" in the ways of Gulliman or Horus, he was not revered as a world leader like the Lion or Sanguinius, hailed as a saviour like Fulgrim or Lorgar, he was nothing more than a comodity to be used and abused as the rulers of his adopted world saw fit. 

They saw how strong he was, he had killed the Dark Eldar after coming out of his cryo tube, they saw he was a warrior and so they hammered metal into his head that made him more violent.

The only bonds he made that gave him a sense of family and belonging was to other gladiators, men and women that he had fought alongside in the ring and in the uprising. He was a 40K version of Spartacus, the honour and promises made of dying with them was taken away from him when the Emperor transported him onto the Conquerer and then left him.

After killing some of the World Eaters hierarchy, it took Khan to prove to him that the War Hounds were of his genepool. His. Father. Abandoned. Him.....in his eyes that was the second insult. He takes him from his family before the biggest battle of thier lives, then he was shut in a room and his father told his sons deal with him....no wonder he had no respect for the Emperor.

No Lux Angron was not retarted as you so calously put it, he had issues, severe issues that shrinks today would call abandonment issues to the extreme. By the time he was reunited with his Legion he was a killing machine, its all he knew he knew of nothing else. 
His respect had to be earnt and some earnt it, some did not. Those that stood thier ground before him, they earnt it, Khan and the Captain for one. 

Mentally impared might be another better word to use, but not retarded, it was said that at the start he would listen to briefings, he would contribute but after time all he wanted to do was kill. He was the perfect avatar of Khorne, in the end he did not care whose blood he spilt, only that it flowed. 

Which seeing as the gods of Chaos had a hand in the scattering of the Primarchs to start with, maybe this was already pre-ordained, maybe Khorne decided long ago that he was going to have Angron as his and sent the Pod to Nuceria knowing what would happen. 

whatever it was Angron was flawed yes, but only in the way that unlike his brothers, he was a slave something he vowed he would never be again.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> comorbidity is either the presence of one or more disorders (or diseases) in addition to a primary disease or disorder, or the effect of such additional disorders or diseases to the primary diagnosis.


Comorbidity refers to two or more conditions that are *unrelated* except in that they occur in the same patient. You were suggesting that the two were very directly linked.



> If you could please show me where I stated that red-eyes are a potential sign of cognitive problems?





Lux said:


> to attribute to him a plethora of physically and behaviorally displayed symptoms that are often seen in retarded individuals, mostly through brain damage in various lobes.
> 
> The red eyes,


This is your first post. "Physical signs" of "retardation" and your first example is red eyes. Not bleeding eyes, not Hyphema but red eyes.



> Have I ever stated that the cranial trauma is not a cause or factor in the cause of a degree of retardation? I merely stated that Angron is likely retarded.


I suppose you never did state that. However in my opinion "retarded" and brain-damaged are very different things, if you were a therapist I think you'd agree. "Retarded" to me means either Learning Disability (the term that replaced it) or, more generally, mentally impaired, both of which are inherent in the person and not the result of external trauma. It's pretty obvious that the Nails messed Angron up really bad, if that's all your trying to get across then congrats on the Captain Obvious, if not then I disagree. 



> Angron has displayed the inability to process abstract thinking or the ability to process large quantitative scenarios. Such as battle logistics, or simple numbers, losses for his forces, strategy, non physical verbal ques, allegories, all of this is entirely alien to him.


It is made clear that these things are not alien to Angron originally, in his youth he was very capable of this kind of thinking. That's why he was able to create, organize and lead a pretty darn successful rebellion. He is capable of both mental and emotional reasoning in his initial discussion with Kharn. He is accepted into the Primarchs as an equal. It is only later, as the effect of the Nails (first) and his fall to Khorne (second) become more pronounced that these things begin to slip from him. Look at the change in Kharn in the original trilogy to see an even more pronounced change caused by Khornate worship. Betrayer is set after his fall, he is just too far gone at that point but it's not who he was. 



> Where do you derive your statements from? Lack of sleep means he is never able to process memory correctly, when humans sleep they go through several stages. Of which the brain process memories and experiences that you experienced in "Blocks". Without the processing of these blocks, accessing these memories or more importantly accessing their neural pathways becomes highly erratic for the brain to do so.


Right. None of those things either cause a person to become "retarded" in anything approaching a medical sense, nor are they caused by being "retarded". They do however explain why he would be having trouble processing information properly (sleep deprivation) without him being retarded. You are arguing that he is retarded. Therefore bringing up something that shows that he needn't be retarded is counter to your argument.



> You choose to respond, for you had something to project, some thing to prove if not others then to yourself. Every response is a validation of ones of motivations in one way or another.


I choose to respond because I have nothing better to do right now. And also because...









AND because now I have 1,000 posts!


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> AND because now I have 1,000 posts!


Grats. Lux doesn't need any proof, he's the picture of madness, cthulu and tzeentch both bow down before him and his madness.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

sometimes Lux's theories about 40K Cannon are like those of an inmate at a high security hospital.....totally bizzarre and whilst they do not make a whole lot of sense to anyone else....makes sense to them.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First the term "retarded" is a bit archaic and can't be applied to a Primarch. Angron was FULLY aware of all he did and voiced intelligently his reasons for not only the bloodshed and slaughter but also his motivation for siding with Horus as well as his aversion to the Emperor. In case you forgot, why don't we go down the family tree here and list some other interesting behavioral flaws of his brothers:

1.Horus: Narcissistic egomania amplified by an insecurity over his relationship with his father.
2. Night Haunter: Where to begin.......
3. Magnus- Lancelot complex mixed in with his obviously over inflated ego of his abilities to master and understand the warp. 
4. Sanguinius- Besides the fear that would the Emperor would discover his imperfection, he was cursed with a genetic imperfection that caused his sons to become vampires.
5. Leman of the Russ- Puts on façade for his men by speaking in their tongue and being a wannabe Viking (see Ahriman's impression of Russ). He also hooks his men up with a genetic flaw that if they can't control they turn into werewolves. 
6. Corvus Corax- After the dropsite massacre, he takes it hard and turns into a recluse and makes what looks like a suicide run into the Eye of Terror.
7. Perturabo- He an asshole.
8. Rogal Dorn- Has massive guilt over Siege of Terra incident where he puts himself into a damn pain glove. From that he comes up with the brilliant idea of going on a nearly suicidal mission against the Iron Warriors that costs both sides dearly. Later dies on a suicidal charge on the command deck of a Black Crusade ship. Basically he was suicidal. 
9. Lion El'Johnson- Paranoid schizophrenic incapable of trust due to a child hood spent being hunted in a triple canopy forest by chaos beasts which drives his sons to rebellion.
10. Alpharius/Omegon- Older brothers picked on him which gives him an inferiority complex leading to his actions on Deliverance lost. 
11. The Emperor- Last but not least. The embodiment of this family madness as all 20 primarchs make up his characteristics or at least some of them. This Heresy series has portrayed the Emperor as: an asshole(in regards to Ferris Manus), a liar (Mechanicum), a martyr (Outcast Dead), a horrible father (Angron), a caring father (Corax), a really horrible father (Night Haunter), a complete asshole (handing Magnus a damned legion), and a man of principles above shadow games (Nemesis). We aren't even done and these are just some of his characterizations. 

So when you call Angron retarded, take a step back and realize when you come from fucked up and crazy genetic stock, you'd be a few beats short of a song as well.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The problems the Primarchs have don't have much of anything to do with genetic code. It's almost always a case of "nurture" as opposed to "nature" with them, sometimes with a healthy dose of the Warp, to boot. The type of nurture and upbringing they received developed their characters and behavioral patterns. Note that while all Primarchs retained much of the culture they grew up with, it did not prevent them (well, almost all of them) from becoming viable parts of the Imperium.

Specifically -

*1. The Lion:*
He is a recluse (see his behavior and personal dwellings in 'Fallen Angels' and 'Savage Weapons'), but that is to be expected given his initial upbringing in Caliban, during which he was completely alone. Mike Lee's description perhaps alludes to him not being able to "read" people, but that is hardly evidence of paranoia or schizophrenia. A paranoid schizophrenic would not be able to command a Legion effectively to begin with, something that the Lion has shown he is able to do (to say the least).

*3. Fulgrim:*
Fulgrim has a perfectionist complex when we are first introduced to him, but that is hardly surprising for anyone in a position of such power and authority. Furthermore, it is qualified for us that his early behavior is quite different for the narcissistic, egocentric complex that he develops after his contact with the Laer. His friendship with Ferrus Manus is further evidence of that.

*4. Perturabo:*
'Angel Exterminatus' hints (in my humble opinion) that Perturabo may have initially been tainted by the Warp - note his ability to see the Eye of Terror when no one else can. Beyond that, what you have is an individual whose moral compass is gradually, brutally whittled down as his gifts for building and creation are "perverted" (if you will) toward destruction and warfare of the cruelest and most unrewarded kind.

*5. The Khan:*
Classic nurture vs. nature. He was found by a nomadic, tribal, violent warrior culture and became just like the people who adopted him.

*6. Russ:*
Although 'Deliverance Lost' revealed that all Primarchs had been designed at the genetic level for certain tasks, Russ is perhaps the only one whose genetic makeup might have trumped whatever "nurture" he received, regardless of where he landed.

*7. Dorn:*
Adopted by a stable, civilized stellar empire, Rogal Dorn lives his life much the same way. He builds, he fortifies, he leads, he organizes.

*8. Night Haunter:*
He lands on a planet full of killers, rapists, and other assorted criminals. Not surprisingly, he develops into a merciless, predatory creature with an absolutely broken code of ethics.

*9. Sanguinius:*
He is adopted by one of the tribes on Baal Secundus that aren't vicious, mutated killers. He is venerated as a savior and as a divine creature. He repays them by protecting them and fighting off their monstrous enemies. His behavior pattern largely continues that way.

*10. Ferrus Manus:*
He grows up on a planet defined by a Darwinian complex - the strong survive, the weak die. Not surprisingly, he values strength over all other things, trusts his own artifices and power over those of others, and has a hard time "letting people in" and making friends.

*12. Angron:*
Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.

*13. Guilliman:*
Call it, "Dorn Part 2."

*14. Mortarion:*
Lands on a planet whose human population is oppressed by sadistic, murderous xenos. Is forced to slave away under said xenos until he escapes and and leads humans to rebellion. Only way to fight the war is a grueling, brutal slog against conditions guaranteed to kill people. Not surprisingly, develops a penchant for poisons, toxins, and a macabre look.

*15. Magnus:*
Lands on a planet of psykers, swiftly discovers he is more powerful than anyone there. Absent any real authority figure, embarks on an exploration of not just his own powers, but of the defining forces of the universe. Chaos, probably as part of its own game, hides its worst face from him, which only gives Magnus a greater sense of comfort. When the Emperor warns him of "horrific dangers", what exactly has Magnus seen to lead him to believe his father?

*16. Horus:*
Far from a narcissistic egomaniac, the Horus we initially see is a rather balanced, genial, and benevolent individual - as warlords given command over superhuman warriors, fleets of starships, armies of humans, and a mandate to conquer the galaxy go. His worst behavior prior to his fall is his frustration with brothers he thinks can't stand to see him as "primus inter pares". It's not until after Erebus puts his plan in motion - and specifically after he is poisoned and tempted in a Warp trance - that Horus starts going downhill.

*17. Lorgar:*
Complete nurture over nature. Lands on planet of religious zealots, becomes a religious zealot searching for the meaning of it all.

*18. Vulkan:*
Lands on planet of hardy survivors whose society is based around smithing, fire, anvils, hammers, flames, magma, etc. I give you one chance to guess what he and his Legion develop into.

*19. Corax:*
A life hiding from vicious oppressors and tyrants leads to a penchant for stealth and hit-and-run tactics. Huge surprise!

*20. Alpharius and Omegon:*
I reserve the right to withhold comment until we know more about them. I think it goes without saying, though, that 'Legion' heavily implies there never was a "little brother" complex. The Alpharius and Omegon we see in that novel would never have given a damn about Guilliman pointing at his banners... and the Guilliman we see in 'The First Heretic, 'Rules of Engagement', 'Know No Fear', and 'Betrayer' does not seem like the kind of guy who would point at his trophy case to mock another Primarch.

Thus, with the exception of a couple of Primarchs, we can see that it was events during the Heresy or external factors during their upbringing that led to any Primarch having what could be termed deviant behavior. Absent the Warp, botched cyber-surgery, and being stuck in hell-worlds, it's a fair assumption that every Primarch (or at least almost every one of them) would have arrived stable and well-adjusted... as far as conquerors of a galaxy go, anyways. :wink:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The problems the Primarchs have don't have much of anything to do with genetic code. It's almost always a case of "nurture" as opposed to "nature" with them, sometimes with a healthy dose of the Warp, to boot. The type of nurture and upbringing they received developed their characters and behavioral patterns. Note that while all Primarchs retained much of the culture they grew up with, it did not prevent them (well, almost all of them) from becoming viable parts of the Imperium.

Specifically -

*1. The Lion:*
He is a recluse (see his behavior and personal dwellings in 'Fallen Angels' and 'Savage Weapons'), but that is to be expected given his initial upbringing in Caliban, during which he was completely alone. Mike Lee's description perhaps alludes to him not being able to "read" people, but that is hardly evidence of paranoia or schizophrenia. A paranoid schizophrenic would not be able to command a Legion effectively to begin with, something that the Lion has shown he is able to do (to say the least).

*3. Fulgrim:*
Fulgrim has a perfectionist complex when we are first introduced to him, but that is hardly surprising for anyone in a position of such power and authority. Furthermore, it is qualified for us that his early behavior is quite different for the narcissistic, egocentric complex that he develops after his contact with the Laer. His friendship with Ferrus Manus is further evidence of that.

*4. Perturabo:*
'Angel Exterminatus' hints (in my humble opinion) that Perturabo may have initially been tainted by the Warp - note his ability to see the Eye of Terror when no one else can. Beyond that, what you have is an individual whose moral compass is gradually, brutally whittled down as his gifts for building and creation are "perverted" (if you will) toward destruction and warfare of the cruelest and most unrewarded kind.

*5. The Khan:*
Classic nurture vs. nature. He was found by a nomadic, tribal, violent warrior culture and became just like the people who adopted him.

*6. Russ:*
Although 'Deliverance Lost' revealed that all Primarchs had been designed at the genetic level for certain tasks, Russ is perhaps the only one whose genetic makeup might have trumped whatever "nurture" he received, regardless of where he landed.

*7. Dorn:*
Adopted by a stable, civilized stellar empire, Rogal Dorn lives his life much the same way. He builds, he fortifies, he leads, he organizes.

*8. Night Haunter:*
He lands on a planet full of killers, rapists, and other assorted criminals. Not surprisingly, he develops into a merciless, predatory creature with an absolutely broken code of ethics.

*9. Sanguinius:*
He is adopted by one of the tribes on Baal Secundus that aren't vicious, mutated killers. He is venerated as a savior and as a divine creature. He repays them by protecting them and fighting off their monstrous enemies. His behavior pattern largely continues that way.

*10. Ferrus Manus:*
He grows up on a planet defined by a Darwinian complex - the strong survive, the weak die. Not surprisingly, he values strength over all other things, trusts his own artifices and power over those of others, and has a hard time "letting people in" and making friends.

*12. Angron:*
Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.

*13. Guilliman:*
Call it, "Dorn Part 2."

*14. Mortarion:*
Lands on a planet whose human population is oppressed by sadistic, murderous xenos. Is forced to slave away under said xenos until he escapes and and leads humans to rebellion. Only way to fight the war is a grueling, brutal slog against conditions guaranteed to kill people. Not surprisingly, develops a penchant for poisons, toxins, and a macabre look.

*15. Magnus:*
Lands on a planet of psykers, swiftly discovers he is more powerful than anyone there. Absent any real authority figure, embarks on an exploration of not just his own powers, but of the defining forces of the universe. Chaos, probably as part of its own game, hides its worst face from him, which only gives Magnus a greater sense of comfort. When the Emperor warns him of "horrific dangers", what exactly has Magnus seen to lead him to believe his father?

*16. Horus:*
Far from a narcissistic egomaniac, the Horus we initially see is a rather balanced, genial, and benevolent individual - as warlords given command over superhuman warriors, fleets of starships, armies of humans, and a mandate to conquer the galaxy go. His worst behavior prior to his fall is his frustration with brothers he thinks can't stand to see him as "primus inter pares". It's not until after Erebus puts his plan in motion - and specifically after he is poisoned and tempted in a Warp trance - that Horus starts going downhill.

*17. Lorgar:*
Complete nurture over nature. Lands on planet of religious zealots, becomes a religious zealot searching for the meaning of it all.

*18. Vulkan:*
Lands on planet of hardy survivors whose society is based around smithing, fire, anvils, hammers, flames, magma, etc. I give you one chance to guess what he and his Legion develop into.

*19. Corax:*
A life hiding from vicious oppressors and tyrants leads to a penchant for stealth and hit-and-run tactics. Huge surprise!

*20. Alpharius and Omegon:*
I reserve the right to withhold comment until we know more about them. I think it goes without saying, though, that 'Legion' heavily implies there never was a "little brother" complex. The Alpharius and Omegon we see in that novel would never have given a damn about Guilliman pointing at his banners... and the Guilliman we see in 'The First Heretic, 'Rules of Engagement', 'Know No Fear', and 'Betrayer' does not seem like the kind of guy who would point at his trophy case to mock another Primarch.

Thus, with the exception of a couple of Primarchs, we can see that it was events during the Heresy or external factors during their upbringing that led to any Primarch having what could be termed deviant behavior. Absent the Warp, botched cyber-surgery, and being stuck in hell-worlds, it's a fair assumption that every Primarch (or at least almost every one of them) would have arrived stable and well-adjusted... as far as conquerors of a galaxy go, anyways. :wink:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> *12. Angron:*
> Need we go into this? Within days of arrival, is almost murdered, and is then captured by slavers who beat machines into his brain meant to make him into a berserker. Decades of horrific abuse ensue. Only moral motivation has to do with killing human beings.


You forgot the whole "feels betrayed by his "father" thing as well. Other than that fraking awesome post!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I didn't include that as I figured that was an "external factor". It wasn't something he was genetically predisposed to, which was what I was arguing against.

Also, thanks!


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> The problems the Primarchs have don't have much of anything to do with genetic code. It's almost always a case of "nurture" as opposed to "nature" with them, sometimes with a healthy dose of the Warp, to boot. The type of nurture and upbringing they received developed their characters and behavioral patterns. Note that while all Primarchs retained much of the culture they grew up with, it did not prevent them (well, almost all of them) from becoming viable parts of the Imperium.
> 
> Specifically -
> 
> ...


:shok::goodpost: fantastic answer


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet. Furthermore it seems Angron's very views upon war, strategy, and base concepts such as victory are all horribly distorted. 

A common sign seen in patients...of less then average intelligence is that they replace the meaning of a concept with one that fits the density of their own reality. 

Angron's very display of lack of intelligence, is more so then any argument that it is entirely nurture. Angron has displayed a grand deal of showings for one to postulate that his degree of retardation is heavily nature based, which was only exacerbated by the nails.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet.


Or you know, not. Mortarion, Alpharius (might have), Russ, Night Haunter, etc. 

Given the limits of his force in terms of technology, numbers and training what Angron was able to achieve was pretty darn impressive and certainly not the feat of a mentally challenged individual.



> Angron has displayed a grand deal of showings for one to postulate that his degree of retardation is heavily nature based, which was only exacerbated by the nails.


One being you, no one else has seen any of these hints. You have to show that he was just as challenged early in his life as he was later, and he clearly wasn't.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Lux said:


> Yet through it all, Angron alone was the only individual of his cohort that was unable to conquer his planet.


Convenient of you to forget Mortarion, who not only failed to liberate his world, but was challenged by the Emperor to do it alone or swear complete obedience to him should he fail.

Also, Night Haunter never really conquered his world considering how much it fell back to old ways once he was gone. How many of the other primarchs homeworlds was this true for?



Lux said:


> Furthermore it seems Angron's very views upon war, strategy, and base concepts such as victory are all horribly distorted.


My view of victory in games of 40k is vastly different from those of a professional tournie player, that says nothing about our cognitive functions in regards to being mentally challenged or not.



Lux said:


> A common sign seen in patients...of less then average intelligence is that they replace the meaning of a concept with one that fits the density of their own reality.


Huh, kinda reminds me of a certain three letter named individual..

Must have channeled MEQ a bit for that one:grin:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Convenient of you to forget Mortarion, who not only failed to liberate his world, but was challenged by the Emperor to do it alone or swear complete obedience to him should he fail.


Mortarion unlike Angron, conquered the entire planet except for the last stronghold which was being held by his adoptive father. For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet, this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld. 



darkreever said:


> Also, Night Haunter never really conquered his world considering how much it fell back to old ways once he was gone. How many of the other primarchs homeworlds was this true for?


Once again I question where you draw your material, and or definitions perhaps you need to reaffirm your perception of what you are reading and cease from meddling it with your own emotional values.

Night Haunter had fully conquered all of Nostramo, he had absolute control and domination of every facet of life on the planet. When the Emperor arrived he praised Konrad, and told him that this world was the ideal model world of all future imperial worlds being brought into compliance. 

Nostramo falling into a state of disarray in the future has nothing to do with the world being fully conquered by the Night Haunter centuries prior. You truly need to learn to separate static definition from your own emotional ques, when discussing literature as this.




darkreever said:


> My view of victory in games of 40k is vastly different from those of a professional tournie player, that says nothing about our cognitive functions in regards to being mentally challenged or not.


Once again you are comparing your own self to the medium of individuals who are diagnosed with a degree of retardation, it doesn't work that way. This is something often times many young individuals will do in their early 20's when first discovering differing paradigms from their own. 

Angron's comparison is that to those in his cohort, not yours. Angron unlike his brothers was unable to formulate any form of coherent strategy for war, battle, or long term goals. He was chased from city to city, with no strategy for what to do to ensure victory for the campaign, rather he never even contemplated it.

His children who received the nails were able to formulate complex strategies, such as ambushes, luring out the enemy, multiple directional flanking. The only difference the nails had on angron then that of his children, were that the nails were killing him on a physiological level. The nails were never stated to have been making him less intelligent, rather that was attributed to his own physiological predisposition, IE nature.

His children who also were degrading, were able to retain strategy while inherently being less then him to begin with. 

Angron for all intents and purposes began his life with a degree of retardation, the Nails only made it more pronounced.




darkreever said:


> Huh, kinda reminds me of a certain three letter named individual..
> 
> Must have channeled MEQ a bit for that one:grin:


Your comparison of yourself to MEQ is purely of your own design, if that is your ideal to be so be it. But rather perhaps look at why you would want to supplant your own self with that of MEQ, is something lacking in who you see yourself as?


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I still think it's a million monkeys with access to keyboards and this forum...


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What is life?



Digg40k said:


> I still think it's a million monkeys with access to keyboards and this forum...


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Lux said:


> What is life?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Lux said:


> Mortarion unlike Angron, conquered the entire planet except for the last stronghold which was being held by his adoptive father. For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet, this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld.


Fact remains, Mortarion had not fully conquered Barbarus by the time the Emperor had arrived and was in fact challenged to liberate it on his own, to which he failed. Try to twist things to fit your own warped perception as much as you want but Mortarion still failed to fully conquer his world, just like Angron failed to conquer his world and Night Haunter only managed to keep his world in line through fear of retribution.




Lux said:


> When the Emperor arrived he praised Konrad, and told him that this world was the ideal model world of all future imperial worlds being brought into compliance.


This being the same Emperor who repeatedly lied to his own sons, left them in the dark about very important things, allowed them to act in manners contradictory to what he wanted only to chastise them for it, and who would go on to try and have Night Haunter assassinated?



Lux said:


> Angron for all intents and purposes began his life with a degree of retardation, the Nails only made it more pronounced.


Considering all we know of Angron is post nails going in, last I checked anyway, so how you can make this claim is beyond me; perhaps its just another one of your 'insights' and 'perceptions.'




Lux said:


> Your comparison of yourself to MEQ is purely of your own design, if that is your ideal to be so be it. But rather perhaps look at why you would want to supplant your own self with that of MEQ, is something lacking in who you see yourself as?


That first bit wasn't me comparing MEQ, considering his member name is MEQinc (note that is six letters, not three.) MEQ and I happened to touch on the same stuff from your post, which is what I meant when I said I must have been channeling him.

Now I'd be less subtle about who the three lettered individual is, but I could only hope someone with your 'insights' and 'perceptions' could figure it out.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The Emperor designed each Primarch with a purpose, some as a bodiless gestalt entity that is a legion itself, rather then a singular individual. Others he designed to be animal like in loyalty, while with Angron he designed a primarch of which he could use purely as a force of brute power.

Angron's original design was to inherently have a degree of retardation in relativity to his primarch kin, this was to allow the Emperor to effortlessly wield Angron as a intellectually lacking force of brute power. 

The Emperor planned to have Angron be extremely effective at what his purpose was, destruction without consequence. Thus the Emperor removed from angron any need to intellectual stimulation that would be taxing upon his most precious resource, time. Which is why the Emperor beamed Angron up, left his army to perish and went on his way without even speaking to him.

Originally Angron would have simply accepted being beamed up, and told that the legionares on his ship were his "barbarian kin" just now in suites of iron. Angron in his state of mental retardation would have believed it, but the introduction of the nails complicated everything.

The Nails though destroying his original design, allowed angron a doorway to intellectual awareness, a retarded one at that though. Thus why post of the nails he became a slobbering, unable to formulate anything abstract entity of anger.

His anger is not from the nails, rather is anger is from the nails granting him entrance to intellectual awareness but due to his inherent degree of retardation he is unable to understand it or process it. 

Thus what results from that is endless rage at his own inept ability to think.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> For all intents and purposes Mortarion had conquered the entire planet,


For all intents and purposes Mortarion died in his attempt to conquer his planet, and in so doing failed.



> this is further reinforced where in several books the World Eaters acknowledge that out of all the legions only their primarch failed to conquer his homeworld.


Then these Legionaries are wrong. It is completely canonical that other Primarchs failed to conquer their planet. What in-story beliefs certain characters hold isn't really relevant.



> Night Haunter had fully conquered all of Nostramo, he had absolute control and domination of every facet of life on the planet.


Night Haunter conquered Nostromo Quintus, the biggest city on Nostramo, but he did not conquer the entire planet. Further he exercised very little control over his city, so long as people avoided crime he was largely content. Night Haunter was never a leader and he wasn't a conqueror, he was a bogeyman. 



> His children who also were degrading, were able to retain strategy while inherently being less then him to begin with.


And so was Angron, initially. However the longer the World Eaters had the Nails the harder it became for them to retain their strategical thinking in the face of combat. Angron had the Nails for far longer, and from a much younger state of development, then any other member of his Legion (perhaps by as much as several decades). It is only logical that he would begin to show degradation first.



Lux said:


> while with Angron he designed a primarch of which he could use purely as a force of brute power.


Assuming that to be true there is still no reason why you would intentionally make him mentally challenged. Having an intelligent hand to wield his brute force would be a much better idea. Indeed that's basically the entire point of the Primarch program. Brutal power melded to brilliant minds.



> Angron's original design was to inherently have a degree of retardation in relativity to his primarch kin,


Wait is this your argument? That Angron probably wasn't the smartest Primarch? That's probably true. But there is a *big *gulf between "not the smartest" and "mentally challenged". 



> this was to allow the Emperor to effortlessly wield Angron as a intellectually lacking force of brute power.


Interesting then that he failed to do so. 



> Originally Angron would have simply accepted being beamed up, and told that the legionares on his ship were his "barbarian kin" just now in suites of iron. Angron in his state of mental retardation would have believed it, but the introduction of the nails complicated everything.


Complete and utter fabrication. You have no evidence to support this claim (and indeed it's pretty stupid). You cannot make up evidence to support other claims, that's not how a logical debate works (though maybe that's my fault for expecting a logical debate from you).



> The Nails though destroying his original design, allowed angron a doorway to intellectual awareness, a retarded one at that though. Thus why post of the nails he became a slobbering, unable to formulate anything abstract entity of anger.


So... the Nails made him dumber but also smarter, at the same time. Wow. 



> His anger is not from the nails, rather is anger is from the nails granting him entrance to intellectual awareness but due to his inherent degree of retardation he is unable to understand it or process it.


Except of course that the Nails are *explicitly stated *to cause and increase anger. You are directly contradicting *everything* we know about the Nails (and Angron) in order to support your theory. At that point surely even you have to admit that you're wrong.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> At that point surely even you have to admit that you're wrong.


Youd think/hope so, but if I were you (though be careful because Lux might think we have identity issues) I wouldnt hold my breath on that one.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever are you and MEQ the same person using different aliases?


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Na I'm pretty sure Angron was just an angry bastard who had metal rammed into his brain against his will which in turn made him less in control.

If we want to discuss retards though I could mention somebody....


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Angron, being driven to a nearly battle focused state at all times from the nails, are something that I can wrap my mind around. I have SEEN people that were so focused and intent on killing that they had the 1,000 yard stare. Let me tell you, if you have ever seen it with your own eyes ( NOT some fucking actor portrayal in a movie ) you would not only get what they are trying to instill, but you will never forget it.

This is what the nails have done to Angron in my opinion. Always ready to kill but yet not really as cognitive of the surroundings as most others in the area. Completely aware but, vacant eyes. The urge to destroy living things that are deemed as the enemy. 

Oh yes .... Angron is brutal, but he is by no stretch of the imagination retarded.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Angron, being driven to a nearly battle focused state at all times from the nails, are something that I can wrap my mind around. I have SEEN people that were so focused and intent on killing that they had the 1,000 yard stare. Let me tell you, if you have ever seen it with your own eyes ( NOT some fucking actor portrayal in a movie ) you would not only get what they are trying to instill, but you will never forget it.
> 
> This is what the nails have done to Angron in my opinion. Always ready to kill but yet not really as cognitive of the surroundings as most others in the area. Completely aware but, vacant eyes. The urge to destroy living things that are deemed as the enemy.
> 
> Oh yes .... Angron is brutal, but he is by no stretch of the imagination retarded.


Although not an expert on the matter, from what I have read Angron is considered the personification of blind anger. There is something called a depersonalisation disorder (or DPD for short) which can cause someone to have an "out of body experience". Angron being overcome by rage and being unnable to comprehend anything else that is going on around him is a text book example of this. DPD can be caused by, among other things, a very traumatic childhood, add to that the brain damage suffered from the nails in his head and you are left with the perfect recipe for a mindless killing machine. The brain damage could possibly have caused Angron to stay in his depersonalized state therefore he may appear "retarded" to the outside world but has simply sealed away his consiousness and is unable to get a grip on himself.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> darkreever are you and MEQ the same person using different aliases?


Shit, he's gotten wise to us darkreever, quickly to the escape pods!

Though really there's no cause for concern as really you are also one of us Lux, as we are one of you... all fragile creations of ego and idea... manifesting in this forum... talking to ourselves, ourself.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> darkreever are you and MEQ the same person using different aliases?


MEQ was Reever all along!

~plot twist music~


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Angron's Nails are like a mechanical parasite geared towards nothing but drawing out rage and rewarding bloodshed. They are also incompatible for a primarch's physiology, and were slowly killing him as time went on.

Yes, he fits the bill of retardation, but could still retain enough sense to show a variety of emotions towards his crew and Legion, and even bait Argel Tal with words.

Not sure what point you're trying to prove here, Lux.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I think Lux seems to be confusing Retardation with Autism, possibly Aspergers.

That, or he's quite possibly bat shit insane. I do love his threads though. Endless chuckles watching people rage about him.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think the problem with this thread is that there is a potentially serious topic hosted by one that has had a history of perversing certain topics.

To answer your question, there is no doubt that Angron became retarded. People have to understand that most people who are retarded are not born that way or at least the retarded genes are not developed until a few years into their upbrining. People can become retarded due to external factors, like accidents, drugs, etc... Angron was clearly made retarded because of the Butcher's nails destroying his brain functions.

The retardation... I think is most likely ignored when describing them because its not what fantasy players want to call one of the coolest chaos legions and warriors in lore and gaming. So thats understandable. The Butcher's nails are the cause, however, it stops there in the mentality of most gamers. 

Its also interesting to note the differences between Bezerkers (Warriors with the Butcher's Nails) and other warriors and daemons of Khorne. There is a difference when we read descriptions of Khorne Daemons compared to those of the Bezerkers. In fact, that might be the reason why the mark of khorne for gaming purposes has different benefits than bezerkers. The simple, "they are warriors of Khorne, what do you expect," is not necessarly true. 

For lore purposes, it doesn't sit well with me how they developed Angron. Before it was an angry Primarch with the need of vengence. Though some of the qualities still inherit Angron today, it really stems from the Butcher's Nails. Primarchs and Astartes are suppose to be vastly superior both physically and intellectually compared to average Joe. The fact that the World Eaters, were so flawed and tactically very weak, undermines this truth. We have astartes that can memorize thousands of pages of technique from the Guilliman's Codex, to a bunch of brutes charging heavy weaponry probably knowing they are going to die.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Ckcrawford, I am glad that you are able to see beyond the association of identity some have with Angron and or the the mythos itself.

Similarily I truly do believe that Angron was retarded, to what degree remains subjective as there is no way to administer the appropriate test to measure accurately.

But in comparison to his kin, Angron's level of intelligence and analytical processing along with abstract thinking was far below the average. Intelligence levels that fall below a certain point of the average are medically considered retarded.

Some people seem to have an issue with Angron being retarded due to them associating pieces of their own identity with ideals and values that angron represents, thus they would not want to they them self be retarded by extension of association of identity with angron. It really comes down to a status of ego, via association of ones self with a fantasy character that embodies aspects of what they want to be. In this case people just want to eliminate the aspects of the character they idealize that do not match with what they want to be, such as retardation.

ckcrawford you did a good analysis there, I am glad some can see the silver lining to the topics I make at times. To be able to engage in analysis of the varying qualities of the mythos, without limiting the discussion due to emotional associations with fantasy characters


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

For the purposes of lore, it wouldn't be a good idea (as a kindness to World Eaters fans) to identify Angron as "retarded." Though I blame the author's for this depiction of Angron, the new information on Angron has in some ways destroyed the reputation of Angron. Some will say that certain aspects such as honor may have actually made him more likable, however, because Angron is a primarch and because the World Eaters are a legion I believe it undermines what Primarchs and Astartes actually are. 

In fact with the new information on Angron, it seems unlikely that Angron would have been able to launch such a successful Bezerker Crusade. Though it ultimately failed, he may have actually been the biggest Primarch threat after the Heresy.

People can chose to look at Angron and the Bezerker World Eaters the way they like. People like to look at them as mindless robotic killing machines. I know I'd like to think of my army of World Eaters like that, but its kind of hard not to admit they aren't retarded. They are not robotic if you really think about it because they are hateful and angry. The robotic sense of killing undermines what Khorne is all about. Khorne is a Chaos God that feeds off the thoughts and emotions of anger and hate.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Some people seem to have an issue with Angron being retarded due to them associating pieces of their own identity with ideals and values that angron represents,


Really not sure where you're getting that from. No one in this thread has actually disagreed with you over Angron being mentally damaged and/or challenged. They've disagreed with your assumption that he always was mentally challenged, and that it was somehow designed into him by the Emperor, because it's baseless. I've disagreed with the term retarded because it's not the right term. But no one's actually argued that Angron doesn't struggle mentally.

I also think it's a mistake to think that just because Angron was not on the same level as the other Primarchs he was of below average intelligence. He's still a Primarch after-all.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This Topic made me laugh.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Bahahaha I love this, Angron had warp driven Downs Syndrom.


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