# Chapters into Legions (Pulling a fast one on Guilliman)



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

We all know that Guilliman split the Legions during the second founding. 

BUT. 

Could there be some Legions that while they obeyed the wording of the law they didn't obey it's spirit. Could some First Founding Chapters still potentially call up Legion sized forces if they felt the need? 

Now there are three forces I feel could potentially do this. 

The Black Templars are pretty much a given since nobody knows how many crusade fleets they have dotted around the galaxy and it's highly likely they could easily call together a Legion sized force. 

Space Wolves. Pretty much free from investigation nobody knows how many space wolves there are. It certainly seems like they have more battle brothers than the Codex Astartes would allow but if they come close to anything resembling Legion size i don't really know.

Dark Angels. Sure they split into a multitude of other chapters all calling themselves the Unforgiven... BUT all those second founding chapters still take orders from the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels. Given the nature of the Angels it doesn't seem that unlikely that under the right circumstances (such as somebody actually finding out about The Fallen and deciding to do something about it,) the Dark Angels could call on something of up to a Legion sized force....An Unforgiven Legion if you will. 

Of course I don't see this happening under anything less than the most dire of circumstances, such as Terra being under direct threat or something similar. 

But it's definatly got me thinking.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.


Actually that still puts them at Legion strength since i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines. 
I didn't exactly mean which Chapters have Legion sized forces i mean which chapters could potentially call together such a force. Hence the Black Templars and the Dark Angels. 

I still think the Angels are the most likely. All the Unforgiven seem to be operating in some sort of loose network.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).

and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Fallen said:


> i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).
> 
> and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.


No, they refuse to fallow the codex because they refuse to allow someone to tell them how to run their army. It isn't because they were too small, it is because they are fiercely independent. And since they do not fallow the codex there is no reason to form successor chapters.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well this discussion about the Space Wolves Chapter size has been hammered out before, and the Space Wolves Codex states that Ragnar's Company is 2nd only the Great Wolf's and that it contains 200 warriors- that does suggest that whilst the SW are larger than a Codex Chapter they aren't nearly as large as the projected numbers for the Black Templars (max of 5,000-6,000).

Remember that the Space Wolves were seriously mauled in the burning of Prospero, their clash with the Alpha Legion fleet en-route to Terra, and The Scourging directly after the Heresy. They only split into 2 Chapters and I sincerely doubt there were more than 3,000-4,000 marines left of the Legion when the 2nd Founding occurred.

I agree that the Unforgiven are one of closest group of independent Chapters, at least in my opinion- though strict Codex Chapters (especially those of Guillimans stock) would probably rally to the call of the Ultramarines, of course the Imperial Fists are the singularly most influential Chapter of the Astartes (the Ultramarines are probably more influential amongst the Astartes but in the wider Imperium the IF are more highly regarded).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> the 20000 held by the legions.





Coder59 said:


> i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines.


Depending on what source you use the Legion sizes range on average from 10,000 to 100,000. With some sources claiming the largest Legion (Ultramarines) even being as high as 250,000.



Fallen said:


> i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions


I don't believe thats even hinted at anywhere.

As for First Founding Chapters being able to draw together their successive founded chapters into a coherent force, I imagine its plausable. As you said the Dark Angels spring to mind. But heck, I imagine even the Ultramarines could draw together a large number of their successor chapters into a coherent force.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch. I would put them at maybe 7000 at the end but no more. As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch.


The Burning of Prospero was devastating for the Space Wolves. They may have triumphed, but they got badly mauled in the process. And as the Baron said the subsequent Alpha Legion ambush and the wars of the Scourging would have only further reduced their numbers.

At the time of the second founding the Space Wolves would have been a far cry (number wise) from where they were at their peak.



gen.ahab said:


> As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.


well six known successor chapters aswell as the Dark Angels Chapter themselves would mean at least 7000 Astartes, and thats if they strictly keep to the Codex. By the implications we have that would mean they could pull more men than the Black Templars, although it isn't fully clear as an accurate number of the Templars can never be taken.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.


If there are only six known chapters that still puts the hypothetical "Unforgiven Legion" (I really am starting to love that name) at an equal strength to the Black Templars


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Black Templars are spread all over the Galaxy where as each of the Unforgiven Chapters are rather concentrated- so it's fair to say that it would be much quicker for the Unforgiven to gather a large amount of Astartes in one place than the Black Templars.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

i depends on if the Legion size is taken of chapter size or first founding Legions concentrating their successor chapters in a single place.

It would probably be close between Ultramarines+ successors and Imperial Fists+ successors


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If you were to have a huge hypothetical fight between all the different geneseed derived Chapters, the Ultramarines and their descendents would win absolutely no question about it. Roboute Guilliman's geneseed is currently the basis for 3/5ths of all Astartes!


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> If you were to have a huge hypothetical fight between all the different geneseed derived Chapters, the Ultramarines and their descendents would win absolutely no question about it. Roboute Guilliman's geneseed is currently the basis for 3/5ths of all Astartes!


Problem is that the Ultramarines and their successors aren't bound together in any way. The very nature of the Codex means that rather than acting as a whole they would try and act as a coalition force rather than a Legion


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It would only generate 6100 at max. One of those six has been reduced to only 100 marines, give or take.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't believe any of the first founding could summon up their old legion strength. One reason being that you would probably need a Primarch to do it and despite the use of common space marine geneseeds not all chapters are created directly from the first founding legions. There are chapters which are created outside the influence of the first and second founding; but use a geneseed based off of the loyalist Primarchs. So you can easily have a chapter which is derived from Rogal Dorn's geneseed; but they have never trained or fought alongside the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists or Black Templars. Which means there is no guarantee that all the chapters of Rogal Dorn's geneseed would unite under one banner. The same can be said about the Ultramarines and any successors.

The Black Templars are constantly driving on their own crusades with little contact with one another so summoning up their full strength would be very difficult.

The Dark Angels and their successors may be connected; but I doubt the chapter master of the Dark Angels has enough influence summon them all. So unless Lion El'Jonson is making a come back its not gonna happen.

Space Wolves are a massive chapter; but nowhere near what they used to be.

Basically you are gonna need a man or Chapter master of great influence to summon up a strength worthy of the Legions and right now the only ones I think that can get away with that are the High Lords of Terra.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

imntdead said:


> Basically you are gonna need a man or Chapter master of great influence to summon up a strength worthy of the Legions and right now the only ones I think that can get away with that are the High Lords of Terra.


Actually the High Lords of Terra are the last people who would be able to do that. Especially with the Wolves Templars and Angels. They have very little respect or patients for the High Lords.

As for the Unforgiven they do generally defer to the orders of the Dark Angels Inner Circle so it's highly likely that the Inner Circle could call together several Unforgiven chapters to act together as a Legion far more easily than other bunches. Especially if the fallen are involved.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well the Ultramarines have close ties with their successors, so whilst they may not be quite as close knit as the Unforgiven they can bring significantly more allied Astartes to the equation. Take the Honour Company- the Ultramarines and it's dozens of allies keep a combined company permanently on station outside the Eye of Terror. That suggests that the UM coordinates with a significant number of Astartes.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I bet the Leader of the Custodes could unite all the space marine chapters and legions and be considered the new "Emperor". lol


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well the Ultramarines have close ties with their successors, so whilst they may not be quite as close knit as the Unforgiven they can bring significantly more allied Astartes to the equation. Take the Honour Company- the Ultramarines and it's dozens of allies keep a combined company permanently on station outside the Eye of Terror. That suggests that the UM coordinates with a significant number of Astartes.


If only they would Unite and launch the Second Great Crusade. I bet a few Space Marine Legions would give even the Tyranid hive fleets a good kicking!


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

In fairness I do not believe the SW numbers was hammered out and I only let the matter drop because I didn't want to totally take another thread off topic. For reference my contra post in that thread is below.



> I saw that to but by definition battle hardened (as it says 200 battle hardened wariors) within the SW's would mean Grey Hunter or above as it is only after emerging victorious from the fiercest of battles are they considered for promotion to GH. By this definiton I am guessing Blood Claws, Sky Claws and Swift Claws would not fall into the battle hardened category. I guess the question here is how many various Claws are maintained by each company.
> 
> The codex also mentions the Fang hangars hold hundreds of ships each capable of holding enough SW's to change the course of a war. I guess how many SW's does it take to change the course of a war is the question here. The codex also mentions the Fang holding over 100 Dreadnoughts which is pretty impressive bar Marines. The codex also states the chapter was only divided once so I guess the next question was how big was the Legion before it's division.
> 
> ...


While the point about 200 warriors led by Ragnar is the bit the argument all hinges around. By definition battle hardened would exclude a lot of warriors & indeed the codex may be just referring to Ragnar's Wolf Guard. The other big one for me stated in the codex is the Fang maintains hundreds of ships (by definition hundreds must mean more than 300). Why would they maintain such a huge fleet if they didn't have the Marine power to put on them. The codex also states they do not log Thunderwolf cavalry as they would be seen as a no no by Terra.

While the SW may not be the largest stand alone chapter I would certainly put them in the top 3. As mentioned the Ultramarines could pull in more support but this is different from stand alone.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

By *your* definition of battle hardened that would exclude a lot of warriors, I believe that it means all the Warriors in his Company including the Blood Claws. It doesn't say 200 veteran troops, just battle hardened which means all his troops have taken part in campaigns off world.

Your right the Fang has hangars for hundreds of spacecraft, but considering a Thunderhawk is considered a spacecraft and that Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges wouldn't be able to descend far enough into the atmosphere to be housed in a hangar (even if there was one big enough) that not's really indicative of them having a fleet any larger than a space-bourne chapter.

The Fang is so large because:
A) it's a hollowed out mountain, the largest mountain in the Imperium!
B) it's designed to hold a force many times larger than the current Chapter.

Each company maintains it's own armouries, training areas etc in the Fang, has it's own complement of ships from the SW fleet and provides it's own Marines for these duties (though the smallest ships probably wouldn't even have a SW component onboard) why this would vastly increase a Company's number when *every* Chapter does the same is beyond me.

The Space Wolves ha ve a disproportionate number of Dreadnoughts but unlike a lot of Chapters they don't seem to use them in battle that often so fewer than average are probably irreparably damaged in combat.

All Chapters maintain a huge number of serfs, the SW are hardly unique in that fashion.

I believe it was stated in the 'weakest Legion/Chapter' thread but the SW were seriously mauled by their participation in the Heresy and the Scourging so when they eventually created a single second founding it wouldn't have surprised me that their numbers were so low.
---------------------------------------------
P.s. I also think they're in the top 3 largest single Chapters, just not any where near large as you suggest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> By *your* definition of battle hardened that would exclude a lot of warriors, I believe that it means all the Warriors in his Company including the Blood Claws. It doesn't say 200 veteran troops, just battle hardened which means all his troops have taken part in campaigns off world.
> 
> Your right the Fang has hangars for hundreds of spacecraft, but considering a Thunderhawk is considered a spacecraft and that Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges wouldn't be able to descend far enough into the atmosphere to be housed in a hangar (even if there was one big enough) that not's really indicative of them having a fleet any larger than a space-bourne chapter.
> 
> ...


Totally Agree. The Space Wolves got seriously mauled during the Heresy and the Scourging, theres no doubt about that. The Burning of Prospero involved going toe-to-toe with another Legion, and not just any legion but the probably the most dangerous one; The Thousand Sons. 

Magnus if he wished could have destroyed the entire Space Wolf fleet before it even arrived at Prospero, but he chose not to. Magnus' legion on the other hand had different ideas and fought for every inch of Tizca. Powerful Sorcerers were merely flicking their wrists and sending dozens of Space Wolf Astartes to their deaths at a time.

The following Alpha Legion ambush also would have also reduced the Legion's numbers fairly significantly. And the years following the Heresy (The Scourging) where the galaxy-wide conflict continued, the Space Wolves would have undoubtedly fought at the forefront, further reducing their numbers.

Its safe to say that by the time of the Second Founding, the Space Wolves numbers were significantly reduced from Pre-Heresy.

As for the wording in the Space Wolves codex, I think your twisting it Chimaera. His company consists of around 200 Astartes, as the Codex says.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> As for the wording in the Space Wolves codex, I think your twisting it Chimaera. His company consists of around 200 Astartes, as the Codex says.


Me twist it? Never! Okay I have a slight bias but we all do on here to some extent. 

For the record the Codex states "boasting amost 200 battle hardened warriors" it does not say Astartes or SM. Now taken literally yes you could assume 200 as full company stength but when you read the Codex and digest it's finer points. In the Space Wolves chapter battle hardened generally would encompass those of Grey Hunter or above. The Codex also strongly leads to the theory that the SW are much higher in number than a standard codex i.e. size of the Fang and I quote "Upon the very tip of the Fang is the SW fleet dock, where hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars inside the mountain. *Each* ship is able to *carry enough SW *to alter the course of a war within a single day or cripple a city with a bombardment from above".

While I accept that my initial figure of 9000 may have been a little too ambitious. After more careful consideration I think the SW number circa 4500.

With any luck somebody knows a grown up in GW and could seek clarification or maybe there is somebody out there who has read a particular novel that may clarify the numbers further.

Ultimately I am not that proud to admit I could be wrong (born liar as well :wink but I do not think there is enough evidence out there to suggest I am wrong at this time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Chimaera said:


> Me twist it? Never! Okay I have a slight bias but we all do on here to some extent.


:grin:



Chimaera said:


> For the record the Codex states "boasting amost 200 battle hardened warriors" it does not say Astartes or SM.


No, but it is safe to assume that it refers to Astartes. 



Chimaera said:


> In the Space Wolves chapter battle hardened generally would encompass those of Grey Hunter or above.


Reading too much into it again I think 



Chimaera said:


> The Codex also strongly leads to the theory that the SW are much higher in number than a standard codex i.e. size of the Fang and I quote "Upon the very tip of the Fang is the SW fleet dock, where hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars inside the mountain. *Each* ship is able to *carry enough SW *to alter the course of a war within a single day or cripple a city with a bombardment from above".


A single Astartes can turn the course of a war. (Note _Dark Creed_).

Its obvious that the Space Wolves generally do disregard the Codex Astartes, but from what the Baron quoted (the second largest company consisting of 200 Astartes) gives us some reference to base their overall numbers on.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

I think that maybe the thread has gone a bit off topic(oh well)
The BT have at least 5000 to 6000, the SW i have no idea as to what there numbers are. and the DA well as the one guy said above, chapters combined would probably come some where near 6000 marines or stronger not counting recent deaths or recruts, so it could be weaker.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Helvron said:


> I think that maybe the thread has gone a bit off topic(oh well)
> The BT have at least 5000 to 6000, the SW i have no idea as to what there numbers are. and the DA well as the one guy said above, chapters combined would probably come some where near 6000 marines or stronger not counting recent deaths or recruts, so it could be weaker.


Actually discussing whether the Space Wolves are at Legion strength or not seems to be entirely on topic :grin:

I don't disagree that the Space Wolves are much larger than your standard Codex Chapter, just not any more than 2,000 absolute maximum.

Using the argument that the Chapter should be so much larger because the Fang is so vast is misleading- the Fang's internal structure is extensive because the Space Wolves *Legion* required the space, it wasn't built after the second founding so the Chapter uses the space already manufactured.
Using your example you could extrapolate that the Ultramarines should still be at 250,000 because they have the facilities in Ultramar for that many Astartes...


random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines* really *sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

After my above random perculation of thought, I had a cup of tea and it suddenly struck me that discovering how many marines were left of the Space Wolves Legion (and therefore how many were in the Chapter when it was first restructured) was simple. In fact it's so simple I actually groaned with how ignorant I'd been- the relevant info is sitting there on pages 8 & 13 of the Space Marine Codex! 

The Ultramarines Legion divided into 24 Chapters, and by the end of the Scourging they accounted for roughly half of all Astartes- it's a simple case of going through each Legion and how many Chapters they divided into, leaving the SW for last so you can make an educated guess at how many marines were left in each Legion :grin:

For your viewing pleasure...

Dark Angels: 4 Chapters
White Scars: 5 Chapters
Imperial Fists: 4 Chapters (if you include the Soul Drinkers)
Blood Angels: 6 Chapters
Iron Hands: 3 Chapters
Salamanders: 1 Chapter
Raven Guard: 4 Chapters
=27 Chapters

*Space Wolves: 2 Chapters*

If the Ultramarines are accounting for roughly half of all Astartes and the remaining Legions, excluding the Space Wolves, founded 27 Chapters then that would suggest the Space Wolves Legion couldn't be much bigger than 2,000-3,000 Astartes just prior to the 2nd Founding. Even if the other Chapters were all under 1,000 strong the numbers don't support the SW having that many marines left to found a gigantic Chapter.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

While I accept there is some evidence supporting the SW may be lower than my estimate of 4500 there is also some evidence suggesting they could be as large as I believe. My argument is not mainly riding on the size of the Fang but also the size of their fleet (which they mantain). As an example why would an Army maintain equipment if it couldn't man it/use it. It would be like an airline having a fleet of 300+ planes but only having enough pilots and cabin crew to fly 100 and knowingly never going to have enough passengers even if you did up the pilots/cabin crew. It just wouldn't be realistic to maintain a fleet of that size and mantain it without capability. While I accept 1 Marine could influence a battle. I would think it highly unlikely SW command would send 1 Marine per ship on a mission and even if stealth was the order of the day I am sure they would deploy a back up squad also.

The Ultramarines info is curious as it would mean there were roughly 25,000 between the remaining loyal chapters. I guess the question is how the 25k was divided up?

Iron Hands, Raven Guard & Salamanders got decimated at Isstvan V.

Blood Angels, Imperial Fists & White Scars would have got mauled on Terra.

Dark Angels - Had to retake home world due to Chaos Turning & homeworld was subsequently torn apart.

Space Wolves - Heavy casulaties assaulting Prospero but not limited by Codex on recovery/recruitment.

Edit - Following on from the Baron's subsequent post. How many could the SW potentially have recruited since this time?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And there is the sticking point, we can make a fairly educated guess as to how many marines the Space Wolves *Chapter* began with but then it's how you spin the 'evidence' that forms an idea of how many there are now.

Regarding the 300 (or more) ships- every ship of appreciable size has a complement of Thunderhawks, usually far more than that ship would need to have each full of Space Marines (with a Thunderhawk being able to convey roughly 30 Marines), for use in interstellar combat as fighter-bombers. Thunderhawks themselves are spacecraft so as I've pointed out before it's not that much of a stretch to believe those hundreds of ships would include Thunderhawks and upwards (or even downwards in the case of smaller shuttles) to fill those numbers fully.
Plus I don't know if you've noticed but the Imperium never throws equipment away unless it's been irreparably damaged- it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to assume the Space Wolves Legion's complement of assault craft came off better during the Heresy/Scourging than the troops who rode in them.

It would be an affront to the Machine God if the Iron Priests didn't keep every craft in working order, even if it had no use the majority of the time- your average Battle Barge can hold 200-300 Marines (so basically a Great Company in my reckoning) meaning it would need at least 10 Thunderhawks for transporting all the troops at once, then you've Thunderhawks Transporters for vehicles and more basic Thunderhawks to provide close defence for the Barge in orbit- that might be a complement of 20 or so spacecraft aboard a Battle Barge. Half that number for the more numerous Strike Cruisers and then a full complement permanently stationed at the Fang itself...
Suddenly you've got at least 100-150 Thunderhwks making up those hundreds of spacecraft


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Fair point regarding the wastage of equipment but post 24 straight out of the codex it states each ship is able to carry enough SW or bombard a planet. This would suggest that the ships are of similar size and while I have quoted 300, this is the minimum as by the definition of hundreds. In truth they could have 500 ships or even more, who knows?

In fairness I don't think it would be unreasonable for the SW to have recruited a few thousand since the Prospero days.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Oh I'm sure over 10,000 years they've recruited 10's of thousands but I just don't believe they've ever kept the chapter much above 2,000 marines.

As you've shown the statement regarding the SW ships:


> is able to carry enough Space Wolves to alter the course of a war *or* cripple a city with a bombardment


I've put the appropriate word in bold: some of the ships- cruisers, barges, frigates etc can do both but some like Thunderhawks can carry enough SW to affect a war but not bombard a planet.

Also it say the fleet gathers at the tip of the Fang, and that hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars- this suggests to me that those hundreds of spacecraft are of the smaller variety to be able to be housed in armoured hangars. With the smallest frigate 1km in length I seriously doubt even the Fang could house hundreds of ships of the line or fleet escorts in it's uppermost summit- docking maybe but I doubt there's more than a handful of hangars for ships of that size.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

A Baron I am enjoying our tete-a-tete. You have missed a key word off the quote though and that is the word *"EACH"* which is right at the start. Each by definiton means considered seperately. Hence each starship can carry enough SW to alter the course of a war *OR* bombard a planet. This would intimate that a lot are of similar size.

Fair point about the hangars and frigates but the Fang is reckoned to be the greatest outside Terra. I would also assume the whole fleet wouldn't be at the Fang at the same time and in the same way dry docks are rotated for real life ship maintenance. Sure there will be a lot of smaller craft but the indication is there is also a considerable number of large craft. Another key quote is the Codex mentions "Were a traveller to somehow penetrate the thick stormclouds that girdle the Fang and shroud it from mortal sight, he would at the very limits of his sight see these starships arrayed around the tip of the Fang, seeming to him no larger than ravens coming in to roost". This would indicate the tip the fang had serious docking facilities although I admit hundreds arrayed at the same time would be unreasonable.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Valid point- especially regarding the entire fleet not docking at once, but it's the idea of hundreds of the space craft being in armoured hangars that suggests to me that the majority of those craft are of the shuttle-sized variety rather than warp-capable vessels.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines* really *sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
> Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide


The problem with those numbers is that although some sources state the Ultramarines Legion could muster 250,000 Astartes, the same sources state that the average Legion size was 100,000 - with one of the smallest Legions being the Raven Guard with 80,000.

My point is that these numbers are at odds with most Heresy authors which generally seem to put average Legion size at 10,000.

I personally prefer to take the larger numbered Legions as more likely, but thats just me. Regardless though, this effects the concept of Chapters reuniting in Legion sized forces quite a lot.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I have heard that the Ultramarines geneseed founded 60% of all the chapters and there are 1000 chapters. 60% of that is 600 chapters which is 600,000 marines.
If even a one tenth of the Ultramarines chapter, that would mean 60,000 marines which is more than equivalent to a legion.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

3/5th of all marines are directly or indirectly founded from the Ultramarines (so around 600,000+) but they weren't founded at the same time. Only 24 Chapters including the Ultramarines were founded from the UM legion in the 2nd founding.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I hate chapters, It really just destroyed the Imperiums success. Though lol you could argue it did contribute to its demise. However due to the original legions being leaderless/ without primarchs. i think it was better to put them in chapters, due to the fact that I don't think chapter masters should be held responsible for a force as large as 100,000.
I personally don't think each chapter has only 1000 marines. If you think about it its pretty few due to the fact you retinues, transport drivers, pilots, and so many other positions to be filled as marines that it greatly reduces that number. Besides how do you keep track of fallen marines during long wars and crusades? "Battle Report: two dead marines, make to scouts into marines"? How about lost contact or lost companies? And how are the chapters enforced?
In my opinion they should all give the "Dorn Middle Finger" and begin the process of "crusades." That way if anyone asks they can just be like " I dont give a #### we are all in business we don't have time to count 1000 marines."


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Most Chapters (ie. 99%) have roughly 1,000 marines not 2,000. You do realise the Chapters didn't come into existence when the Primarchs disappeared right? They were around before then, most of the loyalist Primacrhs didn't begin to disappear till about a century after the Heresy.

'How do you keep track of fallen marines?'

By keeping records, each chapter will have extensive records about every marine, and they don't instantly convert 2 scouts into marines as soon as they find out a marine has died- it won't be until the company (or whatever size force) retires from a conflict that losses will begin to be replaced.
The Chapters are enforced by adhereing to the Codex and being policed by the rest of the Astartes and the Inquisition, a case in point would be the Black Templars- if anyone could prove that they are as large as everyone suspects they are then they'd be pursued by the Inquistion (and a number of Astartes).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Yes I do understand that they came before primarchs disapeared. I just agree with the idea that at least in the year 40000 that it works well considering the circumstances. And yeah I miss wrote that about 2000 to 1000, Il fix that.

However, the fact about lost companies and bad communication has happened so many times that I wouldn't be surprised if a chapter master refilled his strength in fear of being understrength. A general is always concerned at the amount of man power, in this case the lack of man power.

Concerning the "Crusade Doctrine" I think that this would be very beneficial to the Astartes and the Imperium. If I could arrange it lol, I would have each crusade comprimised with 1000 marines each with its own Commander or Chapter Master. The entirity of its leadership would be made up of a council with chapter masters. One would be voted as "chief chapter master" and therefore have a reign for a certain time. That way a legion under a crusade doctrine could never be ruled over by one individual and in that sense not create a tremendous rebellion or turn to renegade or chaos. Thats the best way I think Guilleman would be happy without using the dumb chapter rule.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Concerning the "Crusade Doctrine" I think that this would be very beneficial to the Astartes and the Imperium. If I could arrange it lol, I would have each crusade comprimised with 1000 marines each with its own Commander or Chapter Master. The entirity of its leadership would be made up of a council with chapter masters. One would be voted as "chief chapter master" and therefore have a reign for a certain time. That way a legion under a crusade doctrine could never be ruled over by one individual and in that sense not create a tremendous rebellion or turn to renegade or chaos. Thats the best way I think Guilleman would be happy without using the dumb chapter rule.


Thats hardly a perfect failsafe. And also several chapters coordinating efforts has happened many times before, which is essentially what you just preposed.

And whats your reasoning behind your opinion that it was a mistake to dissolve the Legions in favour of Chapters?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Your essentially saying that a multi-chapter crusade would be a good idea? Well it's happened before, notably the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines* really *sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
> Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide


I think this raises an interesting point about the rebuilding of the Imperiums armed forces. I've read somewhere that in the Codex RG split the Imperial Army into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Fleet along with splitting the legions. I wonder at what point during the scourging this was done as the last thing a weak Imperium needed was to have to totally reorganise their fighting forces at the height of the scourging and RG would have realised this.

Also, Pre heresy the Legions (assuming the larger 100000 k estimates are correct numbered roughly 1880000 Space Marines:

Based on 15 * 100000 = 1500000 (estimate)
Ultras = 250000
Raven Guard = 80000
Salamanders = 50000 (complete guess but they were the smallest Legion)
I've not included the missions legions obviously

Now these 1880000 were produced in the roughly 250 years of the Great Crusade.

After the HH and the Scourging we've seen that the total remaining Space Marines totalled the 21 2nd founding chapters as per http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Second_Founding plus the 26 of the Ultras giving a total of 47000 Space Marines.

I wonder why now there are only roughly 1 million Space Marines? Has it taken the Imperium 10000 years to create less than the Emperor managed in 250 years of the Great Crusade.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I think this raises an interesting point about the rebuilding of the Imperiums armed forces. I've read somewhere that in the Codex RG split the Imperial Army into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Fleet along with splitting the legions. I wonder at what point during the scourging this was done as the last thing a weak Imperium needed was to have to totally reorganise their fighting forces at the height of the scourging and RG would have realised this.
> 
> Also, Pre heresy the Legions (assuming the larger 100000 k estimates are correct numbered roughly 1880000 Space Marines:
> 
> ...


I would say yes it would. This is the Big E were talking about here the man who could fix things just by looking at them. 
We also know that the screening process for recruits is far more stringent in the 41st Millenium than in the 31st. Just look at Tyfus here was a man who had sold his soul to Nurgle even before he was recruited and he became a Space Marine Captain! Thats the kind of thing that the Chapters of the 41st millenium try and screen against. Not to mention that the training and indoctrination seems far more intense when compared to the Crusade era marines. 

All this makes me wonder how a Company of 41st Millenium Marines would measure up to a Heresy Era bunch. In terms of mental and spiritual fortitude at least i think the 40k boys would be much tougher than the 30k.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Question, when half of the WBs during the HH attacked Ultramar with the Abyss, well if the Ultras had 250,000+ SMs shouldnt the Abyss and WBs be wiped out (by numbers alone in fleet, and SMs) a hundred times over? Yet the WBs manage to do major damage and fled with a HUGE size WBs into the Maelstrom. Im curious if this is true and if so then HOW THE HELL does this Fluff justify these outcomes.

Makes no sense if the Ultras had so many SMs....


Now as for IF, their Geneseed is widespread. Both Storm of Iron and Dead Sky Black Sun are about the HUGE IF Geneseed for back up uses and future foundings. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... makes you wonder if the Ultras are all that in numbers. I belive it was also stated that that there is only 2 places with that house the Geneseed banks, wonder whos Geneseed is in the other place.

Now add in that the Second Foundings of IF include...da da da.... BTs would put the IF Legion close to Ultras in numbers, IF the BTs, CFs, IFs, and whats left of the Soul Drinkers were to reunite. If Honsou had not taken the huge Geneseed deposit then the IFs be even way more bumped in numbers. 

I put IFs as second to Ultras in Legion Strength. If we are considering Chapters uniting.

Now in case of Single Chapters then thats easy, BTs and SWs have pulled a fast one on Guillimans decrees.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

According to the fact that it's stated that the Ultramarines were relatively unharmed by the events of the Heresy then obviously the Word Bearers didn't manage to devastate much of the Legion.

Actually you've got it wrong, in _Storm of Iron_ and _Dead Sky, Black Sun_ it's a repository of a portion of all Astartes geneseed of which only a part is descended from the Imperial Fists. The majority would still be of Guilliman's stock.

Just because the BT's are a huge chapter now certainly doesn't mean they were larger than a standard chapter when they were founded- in fact all evidence would suggest they were no larger than the Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists.
I too would put Imperial Fists second behind the Ultramaries in a 'uniting of geneseed' scenario, but it would be a distant second as the Guilliman's geneseed is more prevalent than *all* the other Legion's contributions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats hardly a perfect failsafe. And also several chapters coordinating efforts has happened many times before, which is essentially what you just preposed.
> 
> And whats your reasoning behind your opinion that it was a mistake to dissolve the Legions in favour of Chapters?


Not really a mistake, just an unfortunate thing for a legion to have so much strength and the ability to take over entire galaxies and defend itself against virtually anything to be dispersed into chapters. A smart enemy would think divide and conquer. But I do agree with the chapter concept now that the primarchs are out of the picture. Lesser leaders are easily swayed to temptations of chaos. Notably Erebus, and Typhon.

"Your essentially saying that a multi-chapter crusade would be a good idea? Well it's happened before, notably the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade." Baron Spike

Yes I think that having more marines at a Legion of in this case if they decided to make a Crusade Doctrine like army disposal, is very beneficial to the Imperium. In Heros of the Space Marines, One company was awaiting assistance from its mother chapter for months. It never came. This type of thing happens all the time with space marines. Space Marines are generally too hot headed and though sending 1 company of 100 space marines is a tremendous force in any battle, you just can't expect them to subdue a an entire rebellious world without aid. Thats why I think that having more marines deployed as a whole would be more beneficial. That way they don't have to worry about them dieing because of some last stand and losing an entire companies worth of geneseed.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Remember that the vast majority of astartes fleet vessels are not piloted by astartes but rather by chapter serfs, most smaller astartes space craft have a 
crew of less than 10 marines. The SWs were an active chapter during the black crusades and have been attack on fenris by the 1000 sons at least twice "recently". I have no idea how big fenris is but it is the primary recruiting world, based on the current difficulty of recruiting compatible astartes they can't be much bigger than about 2000 marines


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And considering Fenris is a deathworld with a barbarian-era civilisation I imagine the death rate for the tribesemen is massive, the lifestyle being unable to support a large population.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> According to the fact that it's stated that the Ultramarines were relatively unharmed by the events of the Heresy then obviously the Word Bearers didn't manage to devastate much of the Legion.


Okay, still doesnt explain how these WBs outnumbered 10 to 1 destroyed the atmoshere of one Ultramar World, destroyed mutiple Ultra ships (not small craft either, major ships), and battle Ultramar itself. The WB then mostly survived and ran of to the Maelstrom. This is half of a single legion battling ALL of the Ultramarines. If the number of Ultras as most propose is, then the WBs are outnumbered 10 t0 1 and still came out intact. How is this possible unless the WBs are much better Ship fighters than the Ultras? I have not read the book but I like to know how this happen?



Baron Spikey said:


> Actually you've got it wrong, in _Storm of Iron_ and _Dead Sky, Black Sun_ it's a repository of a portion of all Astartes geneseed of which only a part is descended from the Imperial Fists. The majority would still be of Guilliman's stock.


I have to re read it but I thought it was all IF Geneseed. I know the Daemoncubla (however you spell it) took mash up Genetic material from any Marine type, mix it together, fed it to the Daemoncubla, and give birth to a skinless MEQ monster.



Baron Spikey said:


> Just because the BT's are a huge chapter now certainly doesn't mean they were larger than a standard chapter when they were founded- in fact all evidence would suggest they were no larger than the Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists.
> I too would put Imperial Fists second behind the Ultramaries in a 'uniting of geneseed' scenario, but it would be a distant second as the Guilliman's geneseed is more prevalent than *all* the other Legion's contributions.


Cant argue with that.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If you are referring to the battle of the abyss, the ultra marines were caught by surprise and they are most certainly not horrid ship to ship fighters, if I am not mistaken they took the ship with relatively few troops. Also weren't the WB assisted by the WE in the book?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> If you are referring to the battle of the abyss, the ultra marines were caught by surprise and they are most certainly not horrid ship to ship fighters, if I am not mistaken they took the ship with relatively few troops. Also weren't the WB assisted by the WE in the book?


Well this is what I wanted to know. I never read the book, only know the background story. Half the Word Bearers in the baddest ship took on all the Ultramarines on their home turf, and most survive to flee to the Maelstrom.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't think very many of them survived the battle and they never really took on the entire ultramar.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Regarding the Battle of Calth, the Word Bearers have been mentioned as the second largest Legion, and it wasn't necessarily half of the Legion that went to Calth, it could have been most of the Legion.

Given the _Furious Abyss_ and the element of surprise, its perfectly plausable that the Word Bearers would have triumphed. But due to terrible plot devices the _Furious Abyss_ was destroyed.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Regarding the Battle of Calth, the Word Bearers have been mentioned as the second largest Legion, and it wasn't necessarily half of the Legion that went to Calth, it could have been most of the Legion.
> 
> Given the _Furious Abyss_ and the element of surprise, its perfectly plausable that the Word Bearers would have triumphed. But due to terrible plot devices the _Furious Abyss_ was destroyed.


It wasn't a great book I admit. Captain Skraal was the only reason to read that book. The World Eaters really need their own book.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

yes world eaters do need their own book!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

In all fairness to the writers........ none of them are anything to write home about. lol


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> In all fairness to the writers........ none of them are anything to write home about. lol


Depends what you're looking for. You're not going to get War and Peace but you will get a fun book to read. Which is what they are. Unless you read Battle for the Abyss at which point you should just read the bits with Skraal while listening to the Die Hard theme.

Also don't read Eldar Phrophesy or whatever it's called it made me want to burn things.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Never heard of Dark Apostle, Dark Disciple, and Dark Creed? Ive only read Dark Disciple so far, and it was awsome. The Word Bearers fought the Nids, Gaurd, and showed the DE who fears who. I really loved the DE reaction to the WBs and vice versa. Pick it up. In the first one they fought Necs and at the end of Dark Disciple mention the Necs from the first book heading to the EoT to challenge Dark Apostle Marduk. Its preatty badass.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok ckcrawford, you're asking for crusade type organisation, well its called the black templars!!

A high marshall (the boss of it all)

A marshall (he is boss of his own crusade)

A castellan (he is boss of the fighting companies)

Then the jumble that is the rest of the army...

anyways, IF the chapters were to reunite...unlikely, the only ones that might are are the wolves and angels, smurfs are too rigid, IF and CF maybe, but templars are too independent, everyone else, well, they have their own problems...there would have to be a VERY good reason for it...say..the eye of terror expands, like HEAPS!! (oh no, not ultramar! what a loss! hehe)...but you'd have to think about what the problems with that would be, establishing new order, making sure there is no infighting or fallen running amok in the ranks, way too much effort.

In the end, itd be more of a loss then a gain, when you can just send in groups of chapters, instead of making it one whole one!

Oh and on the note of the inquisition proving that we have upwards of 6000 marines, who cares?? they won't do anything, cause if they attacked us, we would retaliate, as well as all our fist friends, then super smurf would come and rescue the day, only to be stuck in bloody warfare. whats that i hear you say?? oh and i forgot to mention, some friends in the form of our chaos buddies would rock up to crush the imperium and not long after da boyz wood come to join da biggest fight eva!! so no roblems with the inquisition...

...besides they havent even checked out the super smurf's gloves of ultramar yet, you know, the ones he stole off a chaos champ?? therefore tainted and heretical! marenus calgar *cough*heretic*cough* . Who said that??!?!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> anyways, IF the chapters were to reunite...unlikely, the only ones that might are are the wolves and angels, smurfs are too rigid, IF and CF maybe, but templars are too independent, everyone else, well, they have their own problems...there would have to be a VERY good reason for it...say..the eye of terror expands, like HEAPS!! (oh no, not ultramar! what a loss! hehe)...but you'd have to think about what the problems with that would be, establishing new order, making sure there is no infighting or fallen running amok in the ranks, way too much effort.


Unite in an alliance? The Ultramarines are far more likely to do that than the overly-proud Space Wolves or Dark/Blood Angels.



High Marshall Mendark said:


> Oh and on the note of the inquisition proving that we have upwards of 6000 marines, who cares?? they won't do anything, cause if they attacked us, we would retaliate, as well as all our fist friends, then super smurf would come and rescue the day, only to be stuck in bloody warfare. whats that i hear you say?? oh and i forgot to mention, some friends in the form of our chaos buddies would rock up to crush the imperium and not long after da boyz wood come to join da biggest fight eva!! so no roblems with the inquisition...


Well not only would the Inquisition care that High Marshal Helbrecht could essentially command Legion strength numbers but the Codex Chapters of the Astartes would also be unhappy- probably wouldn't take much for the Inquisition to convince them to censure the BT.

The Imperial Fists may be their Primogenitor but if it was proven to the Imperium at large that the BT were flouting such an integral command they'd no longer be able to look the other way, the IF have too many connections with the various institutions of the Imperium (more than any other Chapter including the Ultramarines) to do anything other than stand against the BT.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well not only would the Inquisition care that High Marshal Helbrecht could essentially command Legion strength numbers but the Codex Chapters of the Astartes would also be unhappy- probably wouldn't take much for the Inquisition to convince them to censure the BT.
> 
> The Imperial Fists may be their Primogenitor but if it was proven to the Imperium at large that the BT were flouting such an integral command they'd no longer be able to look the other way, the IF have too many connections with the various institutions of the Imperium (more than any other Chapter including the Ultramarines) to do anything other than stand against the BT.


I disagree that the IFs would do anything. First off what can they do? Their hands are tied behind their back with the Soul Drinkers in their custody, and with a below strength chapter of Crimson Fist what the Hell is the IF gonna do to the BT if the Inquisition deem them Renegades? Nothing. There Geenseed is all but wiped out at this point. The IF will most likely say fuck u to the Calgar and his Ultra Codex and take a stance while convincing or smoothing over the High Lords. The IF Geenseed (which falls under all chapters as their most sacred objects) runs thru the BT/CF/SD. They are bringing the SDs into custody of the IFs. Not Imperium or Inquisition, IF. 

Space Marines as we know are independent from the affairs of the Imperium, they are allies like the Mechanicus. Not bound to the Imperiums BS state of affairs. So if the Inquisition deem BT Renegade what would happen?
1) Congrats Inquisition, you just boost the enemies of the Imperium 6000 SM strong. Baaaaad move.
2) The Ultras would retailate and force the IF (who Rogal Dorn didnt want to split up at all) would have to draw a line. Watch the end of their Geenseed, or tell Calgar to fuck off and change what Guilliman brought about for the IF.
3) 6000 Marines would massacre most small chapters realtivly easy, your going to have a Badab War with 4 times more SM casualties and mutiple razed sectors. With the Hivefleets (and new Nid Dex around) coming in, Necs awakining, and Abbaddon holding Cadia in his grasp, I forsee no retaliation to the BTs high numbers.

My thoughts.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You make it sound as if Dorn's geneseed is only present in those 4 chapters when that's obviously untrue.
The IF's are bringing the Soul Drinkers into custody as they see the SD as bringing shame on the Sons of Dorn as a whole, so they're cleaing their own house to discourage thoughts of exactly where the IF's loyalties lie.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> You make it sound as if Dorn's geneseed is only present in those 4 chapters when that's obviously untrue.
> The IF's are bringing the Soul Drinkers into custody as they see the SD as bringing shame on the Sons of Dorn as a whole, so they're cleaing their own house to discourage thoughts of exactly where the IF's loyalties lie.


And again with the CF in the thickest fighting with low numbers, combine that with the BTs being singled out, would you just sit back and start to think, "hmmmmm, these fucking Ulrtas are taking things too far with our Second Foundings."

I know they have more Foundings, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, Iron Knights, Dark Crusaders, Thunder Barons, Dark Hands, Hammers of Dorns. 
Now lets say you have 7 homes (Chapters) with 1000 younger brothers (SMs). Your Father (Rogal Dorn) gives you gifts, names, and artifacts to carry the family legacy. Now thanks to the inquisition 900 Brothers is force to be beaten down, and whats left is in your custody for death, even when they were in the right! 
Another 800 are killed by a Ork Warboss who also destroyed there home, and yet they continue to fight in dangerous fights while heavily injured. 
Now You have come to find a home that has increase from the 1000 to 6x that. Now that same Inquesition says they must be punish for being a larger # than what some brother to your father decreed. 
Now you know they are doing the Emperors work, they ARE your blood brothers, and you have 2 MAJOR wrongs in your family already. One is caused by that same damn Inquisition who turn on the SDs. Just the way I see it. SMs fighting SMs is personel way more than buissnes.

When the are they gonna grow some balls and say "You want them? Go get them yourself." Heck they might just say fuck what the Inquisition wants. Fuck the Ultras whos Primarch told ours what to do or else :ireful2:. 

You said it yourself, they have high connections to Imperial Organisations. Your telling me that Guillimen can force the Imperial to his will (when Rogal Dorn was clearly in charge after Horus betrayel was shown) and yet the IF who have direct contact and conection with Terra, Mars, ect, cannot persuad the High Lords or whoever is high enough to lay off?
Do you think the Inquisition really think that 6000 BTs will be a bit of a problem to tackle when their SO VERY well known through out the whole Galaxy and for what they did at Armeggeddon? Fuck no :laugh:. 

The Inquisition had trouble with the 4 chapters in the Badab War. Now you have the strength of 6 Chapters to set up against. Thats a HUGE amount of Dorn Geenseed. I see the IF making a choice, continue to be bully by Inquisition, or take a stance and try to use their connections to keep a costly war with more of their brothers from happening. All this is ofcourse is based on the Inquisition being stupid and start shit with the BT to begin with. GW makes more money if they have their own Dex.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You seem to be glossing over some major points here.

1) The Imperial Fists are utterly disgusted by the Soul Drinkers, if anything they're likely to deal more harshly with their wayward brothers than the Inquisition would, just to remove the Soul Drinkers taint of their Primarch.

2) Rogal Dorn actually fully embraced the Codex Astartes once he'd split his force, with such enthusiasm in fact that the Imperial Fists are considered second only to the Ultramarines in their adherence to the Codex.

Really if you think about it the Black Templars have essentially gone against the will of their Primarch in assembling such a large Chapter.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

One word. 

Pragmatism. 

It's far more likely they wold just say. Hey these guys are all loyal theres no point in purging so many marines. Wayhey! Let's make six more chapters. 

They might be codex nuts but they're not stupid, neither is the inquisition. They're not going to start a fight of that magnitude for no other reason than one side thinks they have the bigger balls. Marines are valuable why have them kill each other when they can kill the imperiums enemies instead.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Absolutely Coder- the Inquisition would more than likely agree to not persecute the BT if they agreed to split the Chapter into the appropriate numbers, the Black Templars might not like that but they don't really have a leg to stand on here because it's not like the Space Wolves whose Primarch never even agreed to follow the Codex. Dorn agreed whole-heartedly, eventually, with the Codex and split his Legion accordingly.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

As Coder59 said, the losses such an action would incur would be far greater than if they were to simply ignore the issue. The BT are, by no stretch of the imagination, a threat to the imperium and they are an increasable asset. It would be foolish to take action against them.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Absolutely Coder- the Inquisition would more than likely agree to not persecute the BT if they agreed to split the Chapter into the appropriate numbers, the Black Templars might not like that but they don't really have a leg to stand on here because it's not like the Space Wolves whose Primarch never even agreed to follow the Codex. Dorn agreed whole-heartedly, eventually, with the Codex and split his Legion accordingly.


Exactly. The Black Templars aren't the Unforgiven who will gleefully shoot Inquisitors for poking around. Hell they might not even be that pissed about the idea since it would mean they could get even more crusading done. They may even see it as an honour and sign of trust to be given a new name and trusted to forge a new legacy of honour and add to the glory of the sons of Dorn.

Why do so many people think the Inquisition are knuckle dragging mouth breathers? They're some of the most intelligent, charismatic, practical and lethal individuals in the galaxy. They don't start fights over small matters of doctrine, (that's left to the ecclesiarchy,) and they quite frankly have better things to be doing than poking around and ticking off one of the most powerful military assets the Imperium has.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> One word.
> 
> Pragmatism.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think that the only ones that would ever start a war over something like this would be the primarchs. And even Dorn being a stubborn one as he was eventually decided to agree to the codex astartes because he didn't want to fight a war right after the the crap that had gone down.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> 1) The Imperial Fists are utterly disgusted by the Soul Drinkers, if anything they're likely to deal more harshly with their wayward brothers than the Inquisition would, just to remove the Soul Drinkers taint of their Primarch.


Ehhh.... I dont think they know the truth about what happen. Even the Inquisitor who black list them knows he done wrong.



Baron Spikey said:


> 2) Rogal Dorn actually fully embraced the Codex Astartes once he'd split his force, with such enthusiasm in fact that the Imperial Fists are considered second only to the Ultramarines in their adherence to the Codex.


True.



Baron Spikey said:


> Really if you think about it the Black Templars have essentially gone against the will of their Primarch in assembling such a large Chapter.


Im just saying if the Inquisition listed them as Renegades I dont think the IF will back them up. I honestly think they will smooth things over or pull some well connected strings.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think there is much fluff concerning the arguments between Dorn and Gilleman about the Codex Astartes. If I remember correctly, Dorn along with with Vulkan, Russ, and the Lion were opposed the Codex. I don't really think Dorn could afford to oppose the codex Guilleman put out due to his status at that time. I believed there was a lot... blame perhaps that he wasn't able to protect terra and he along with others might have very well believed that he was responsible for not being there to defend Sanguinus and the Emperor. I don't think it was his choice necessarly to accept the terms of codex astartes. I don't think the black templar are disobeying the codex astartes to defy their primarch but perhaps more so to support him. Though he is pretty much dead along with guilleman. And if you think about it, every first founding chapter may have created something to defy the codex. Salamander have 7 companies with 120 marines instead of 10 with 100, Imperial Fists have the black templar, Space Wolves have the great companies, Dark Angels have the Ravenwing and deathwing


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Lion wasn't opposed to the Codex, because he wasn't around when it was implemented- he'd already faced Luther and been bitch slapped.

The Salamanders simply kept their original organisation of 7 Companies, that's how it was when they were a Legion and with so few marines left in the Chapter they probably didn't even have enough to fill 10 Companies.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Baron Spikey
> 1) The Imperial Fists are utterly disgusted by the Soul Drinkers, if anything they're likely to deal more harshly with their wayward brothers than the Inquisition would, just to remove the Soul Drinkers taint of their Primarch.
> Ehhh.... I dont think they know the truth about what happen. Even the Inquisitor who black list them knows he done wrong.


The thing we have to remember here is that, unless I'm mistaken, the Soul Drinkers were crucified because they stood for the old imperium and emperor's ideals, not the bureaucratical bullshit of the high lords and system lords and the atrocities that are committed in the name of the emperor. So why would the IF be ashamed of them, for the IF stand for the same thing, just not nearly as openly?



> I don't think it was his choice necessarly to accept the terms of codex astartes. I don't think the black templar are disobeying the codex astartes to defy their primarch but perhaps more so to support him. Though he is pretty much dead along with guilleman. And if you think about it, every first founding chapter may have created something to defy the codex.


As for the first founding chapters disobeying Super Smurf, shows that they still don't agree with the codex, but follow it out of necessity, for they also fear being ex-communicated, which would suggest that the inquisition and/or other chapters are silently threatening these chapters.

So if it ever came down to open war, it mightn't be just a couple of chapters, but half of them! But it would take something momentous for this to happen...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Badab War anyone? Prime Example as to what happens when the Inquisition stick thier nose in SM buissness. However thos 4 chapters are not near the strength or numbers as the BTs. Also BTs have IF connections with the hook ups. If Huron can convince 3 loyaltist chapters to stand with him against the Inquisition and other SM Chapters, then why not the High Marshal convince the IF/CF to satnd with him? Its not unheard of.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

You're also missing something. If the Inquisition decides to go against one of the First Founding chapters then theres a good chance the other first founders are going to take offence. Remember these guys are regarded as gods even by other Astartes chapters simply because they're first founders and have battle records streatching back to the Legions.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Badab War anyone? Prime Example as to what happens when the Inquisition stick thier nose in SM buissness. However thos 4 chapters are not near the strength or numbers as the BTs. Also BTs have IF connections with the hook ups. If Huron can convince 3 loyaltist chapters to stand with him against the Inquisition and other SM Chapters, then why not the High Marshal convince the IF/CF to satnd with him? Its not unheard of.


The Astral Claws were traitors to the Imperium before the Inquisition paid them any interest.
The Chapters that stood with the Astrals Claws did so because they believed Astartes autonomy was being threatened, if a charge of disobeying the Codex (and Primarch Dorn's commands) was levelled at the BT I doubt the IF or CF would be willing to support the Templars without knowing they were in the right.

The Soul Drinkers were also 'crucified' because they were chaos-loving (even if they didn't realise it was chaos they were following) traitors and mutants, Planetary Systems have been exterminated for less.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Astral Claws were traitors to the Imperium before the Inquisition paid them any interest.
> The Chapters that stood with the Astrals Claws did so because they believed Astartes autonomy was being threatened, if a charge of disobeying the Codex (and Primarch Dorn's commands) was levelled at the BT I doubt the IF or CF would be willing to support the Templars without knowing they were in the right.


Yet these 3 Loyaltist Chapters fought for Huron after mutiple engagements with Loyatist forces and Chapters in ship to ship actions. They were devoted to help Huron cause they thought all the others were in the wrong period, including Inquisition. Theres no solid fluff why the Loyaltist under Huron fought for him as long as they did, but they did.



Baron Spikey said:


> The Soul Drinkers were also 'crucified' because they were chaos-loving (even if they didn't realise it was chaos they were following) traitors and mutants, Planetary Systems have been exterminated for less.


Yeah, I guess Black Dragons (Bone Swords in their Elbows), Blood Angels (Fangs, Red Thirst, Black Rage), Space Wolves (Wolf like abilities, Wolfen, and Canines), Slamanders (Red Eyes), and Flesh Tearers (Same as BAs) mutations arnt nearly as noticable :laugh:. Also the Inquisitor who excommunicate the SDs followed them in Chapter War to fukin apologise cause he knew they were not Chaos worshippers :grin:.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> As for the first founding chapters disobeying Super Smurf, shows that they still don't agree with the codex, but follow it out of necessity, for they also fear being ex-communicated, which would suggest that the inquisition and/or other chapters are silently threatening these chapters.


Agreed, I believe in the old DA codex there was a spy for the Inquisitor sneaking into the Rock to know the secrets of the DA. Hope he gets headshotted.



Coder59 said:


> You're also missing something. If the Inquisition decides to go against one of the First Founding chapters then theres a good chance the other first founders are going to take offence. Remember these guys are regarded as gods even by other Astartes chapters simply because they're first founders and have battle records streatching back to the Legions.


I think that something around the lines of being afraid somehow of the first founding chapters may be why the Inquisition pretends to be concerned about them but kind of just leaving a blind eye so they don't piss them off or the primarchs if indeed there are any living. I also believe that the first founding chapters would probably together pretty close seeing as they are the remaining few of the heresy and have spent tens of thousands of years fighting with another



Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah, I guess Black Dragons (Bone Swords in their Elbows), Blood Angels (Fangs, Red Thirst, Black Rage), Space Wolves (Wolf like abilities, Wolfen, and Canines), Slamanders (Red Eyes), and Flesh Tearers (Same as BAs) mutations arnt nearly as noticable :laugh:. Also the Inquisitor who excommunicate the SDs followed them in Chapter War to fukin apologise cause he knew they were not Chaos worshippers :grin:.


Yeah that is very interesting. I really doubt the Inquisition doesn't know about all these traits the first founding chapters have for tens of thousands of years. I think its bs. The Soul Drinkers may have been made more of an example, because again I don't believe they would start making war with a powerful force that they do need in the overall scheme of thangs.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well both the Flesh Tearers and Black Dragons have been warned because of their practises, with few Imperial forces willing to fight alongside either except in the direst of circumstances.

The Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders have got exemplary records and their stable 'mutations' derive from their Primarchs, not because they made a pact with Chaos (even if the SD were ignorant of that).
Plus an Inquisitor that works with heretics- we call that a radical :so_happy: I'm sure that Inquisitor would have been hunted and executed as a traitor by his peers in time.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Plus an Inquisitor that works with heretics- we call that a radical :so_happy: I'm sure in time that Inquisitor would have been hunted and executed as a traitor by his peers in time.


Touché :laugh:


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Okay, still doesnt explain how these WBs outnumbered 10 to 1 destroyed the atmoshere of one Ultramar World, destroyed mutiple Ultra ships (not small craft either, major ships), and battle Ultramar itself. The WB then mostly survived and ran of to the Maelstrom. This is half of a single legion battling ALL of the Ultramarines. If the number of Ultras as most propose is, then the WBs are outnumbered 10 t0 1 and still came out intact. How is this possible unless the WBs are much better Ship fighters than the Ultras? I have not read the book but I like to know how this happen?


Let's not forget that the Ultramarines were so far from the fighting, they had very little idea it was occuring. It's hinted in "A Thousand Sons" that it's very tough to send a message via the warp and is very easy to be misinterpreted. Like an e-mail with several words or letters missing, I presume.
Plus Chaos had the whole galaxy in a huge warp storm so it was even less possible to understand. It's even possible that they had no idea the Heresy occuring.
Following that possibility, all the Ultramarines knew was that a huge ship turned up on their doorstep baring Lorgar's legions colours, that then proceeded to start firing. They would have no idea what was going on. Their fleet wouldn't be in any kind of defensive formation, and their warriors would be at rest with only a few actively patrolling.
If I recall correctly, the only Ultramarines who knew were on the _Eisenstein_.


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## Thorin Hubertson (Jun 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its obvious that the Space Wolves generally do disregard the Codex Astartes, but from what the Baron quoted (the second largest company consisting of 200 Astartes) gives us some reference to base their overall numbers on.


I think the Space Wolves may have those 2 very large Great Companies with 200 Marines each, then Great Companies with about the Salamander's company-size (120 each), and some between these two ends (say 150 each). So all in all maybe 1,750 Marines, with a further 100 in the Great Wolves' Great Company.


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## warmaster isaan (Sep 18, 2008)

The Blood Angels could definitely do it, because it red fury the book they have already called all of the chapters that could make it (even if only represented by 5 people at the time) so if there was an emergency they could easily call up a legion sized army.
last time they did it was to restore their depleted forces so they don't collapse if chaos find out their current state of weakness, and they called a tithe from very founding chapter originally from the BA to spend time in the forces to help them until they return to full strength if i remember correctly.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

warmaster isaan said:


> The Blood Angels could definitely do it, because it red fury the book they have already called all of the chapters that could make it (even if only represented by 5 people at the time) so if there was an emergency they could easily call up a legion sized army.
> last time they did it was to restore their depleted forces so they don't collapse if chaos find out their current state of weakness, and they called a tithe from very founding chapter originally from the BA to spend time in the forces to help them until they return to full strength if i remember correctly.


Whilst the Blood Angels do eventually get a complement of recruits from each Chapters none of the Successor Chapters are particularly comfortable in each other's presence- they cooperate when they must but not a single moment more.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> As for the first founding chapters disobeying Super Smurf, shows that they still don't agree with the codex, but follow it out of necessity, for they also fear being ex-communicated, which would suggest that the inquisition and/or other chapters are silently threatening these chapters.


Not really.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes



> The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could.


In addition Corax embraced the Codex.



> Following the Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and one of the first edicts is his holy tome, the Codex Astartes, was that the Space Marines Legions be split into smaller units known as Chapters. Amongst many of the Primarchs there was resistance, but Corax welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true. Thus the Raven Guard were to give rise to three other Chapters: the Black Guard, the Revilers and the Raptors.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

The argument for the UM's seems to be that there were a lot of them, so basically Guillman (in SM terms at least) slept around alot, like roman emperors of old. That makes them a whole lot more interesting than i thought they were. A possible target for slaneesh, or a load of angry and confused SMs brought up in a single parent household even :grin:

Black templars aside (emperor knows they seem to be getting plenty of credit in this thread) it would seem that the angels (blood and dark) would both manage a decent showing if the call ever came to form in great numbers. Both these chapters have individual traits running though them that could act as a unifying force. 

The Dark angels would be pretty straightforward i'd imagine, just hint that one of the fallen is involved, whilst the blood angels and successors probably don't like fighting together due to the risk of 'the rage' sweeping through the entire fighting force, but given a reason to unify into a legion I imagine they'd be less concerned about that happening.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Guilliman was a superhuman whore. 

CP


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Its really hard to gauge the numbers. The old books say one thing, the HH novels say another. 

It sounds like the Thousand Sons we're around 10,000 total and the Raven Guard had 80,000 at the time of the drop site attack. 

On point though probably the closest anyone could get quickly would be BT with around 5,000 or 6,000 space marines if they called in all the crusade groups at once. 

Still tiny compared to legion numbers if any of them are accurate counts.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Just with reference to what someone mentioned earlier. The Blood Angels are probably the Chapter that could raise a large force the fastest. They wouldn't be able to raise the Largest force over all but all the successor chapters are loyal to Sanguineous so if Astroth, who is basically head chaplain to all Blood Angel Chapters, put out a rallying call all the successors would answer. So you're looking at 6-7 Chapters with of Marines (not all the successors have been named and some have gone mad or exploded)

Aramoro


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Yes but all the Dark Angel successors are actually all part of the same organisation- the Unforgiven, Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master with the head of every other Chapter a Grand Master. Unlike the BA and it's successors they're linked by a common purpose and don't appear to intensely dislike each other like the Sons of Sanguinius do.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

In Codex Blood Angels it says that Dante has called for help from all of the Successor Chapters and that the only ones not to send aid were the Lamenters. Even the Knights Of Blood turned up and they have been declared renegade.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Out of duty to their homeworld, not necessarily friendship.

After all, if you moved abroad, and someone invaded your homeland, you`d be pretty pissed, right? I know it`s not the same, but still, The home of their primarch is under siege! They owe their existence to that world, of course they`re gonna help.

btw, getting off topic.

I still think chapters work fine in theory. It`s just a shame about some of the guys in charge.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Regardless of what the reasons may be it still stands in black and white that Dante brought together all of the Blood Angels successor chapters bar one. 
If a legion as fractured as the Blood Angles can be brought back together then i would imagine that most founding legions could pull together a sizeable force fairly quickly.
The Ultra's would probably be able to pull together the biggest force just because they spawned the most Chapters. I think it's roughly half of all the SM Chapters in M41 owe their gene seed, at least in part, to the Ultamarines. Theres supposed to be around 1000 Chapters, so thats 500 chapters of roughly 1000 marines each. I don't think any of the legions came anywhere near that sort of size.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I think it's roughly half of all the SM Chapters in M41 owe their gene seed, at least in part, to the Ultamarines. Theres supposed to be around 1000 Chapters, so thats 500 chapters of roughly 1000 marines each. I don't think any of the legions came anywhere near that sort of size.


Although we should take into account that inevitably some of those Chapters who owe their gene-seed to Guilliman are now so far removed from the Ultramarines that they may not feel any sense of loyalty or common purpose at all.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And it's actually 60% of Chapters are of Guilliman's seed not 50% :wink:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> And it's actually 60% of Chapters are of Guilliman's seed not 50% :wink:


Whats 10,000 super human killing machines with big guns between friends eh?

I'd even go as far as to say that it was Guilliman who pulled the fast one, there's no other Legion that could stand up to that.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Whats 10,000 super human killing machines with big guns between friends eh?


Not much, but 100,000 could be a big deal :grin:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Although we should take into account that inevitably some of those Chapters who owe their gene-seed to Guilliman are now so far removed from the Ultramarines that they may not feel any sense of loyalty or common purpose at all.


Sorry for the double post, I completely missed this!

Again, I think it would depend on what the reason was. As far as I'm aware all successor chapetrs still venerate their Primarchs, unless of course they are the Blood Ravens. As long as they can still trace their lineage back to the Ultras then I would imagine a call of enough importance would be answered. 
That just leaves the question of what would the call need to be? 
If it was an open call for support in taking control of the Imperium then I would imagine their would be a sizeable amount of resistance. If it was a call for aid to defend against some massive force I would think that the call would be answered and the mother of all Legions would be raised in a very short time.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i think i would be more worried about the Black Templars they seem more secretive the the Lions sons in my humble opinion and as a side thought whilst no one questions thier loyalty to the Emperor and Dorns legacy a legion strength band of zelous fanatics really worries me....um wasn't that what got Lorgar and his sons into trouble in the first place i bet he is laughing his demon ass off now


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Sorry for the double post, I completely missed this!
> 
> Again, I think it would depend on what the reason was. As far as I'm aware all successor chapetrs still venerate their Primarchs, unless of course they are the Blood Ravens. As long as they can still trace their lineage back to the Ultras then I would imagine a call of enough importance would be answered.
> That just leaves the question of what would the call need to be?
> If it was an open call for support in taking control of the Imperium then I would imagine their would be a sizeable amount of resistance. If it was a call for aid to defend against some massive force I would think that the call would be answered and the mother of all Legions would be raised in a very short time.


Tell that to Graham McNeill. "The Chapter`s Due" sees an iron warriors warband and a daemonic warhost lay siege to ultramar and strike at several key worlds simultaneously. Utilising pirates and mercenaries as well actually. 

And which chapter sends its aid?

The Raven Guard. They send not even a dozen warriors with the interest of capturing one of their own turned renegade.

Does Ultramar have to fall before their successor chapters take notice?




"...Damn. Maybe we should have helped them, eh?"


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