# how thinly stretched is the imperium?



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

those of you who have the dark heresy rulebook may have noticed a small picture showing the calixus sector and a few of its neighbours, it seems that on the galactic scale imperial space is actually quite few and far between with most of it being unexplored. Taking this into account how can the imperium realistically claim to 'own' the whole galaxy when they actually control so little of it? thoughts and additions anyone.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Most of the fiction makes it quite clear that the imperium is a small part of the total galaxy, a million worlds roughly amongst billions of systems. The Astromican has quite a limited range really, and ship crews arent keen on going out of the range of the astronomican.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

i dont think the imperium claims to own the galaxy on a terretorial basis, but more on a religeous basis. i think the argument gos something like:

Tau commander:
"why should we surrender to you?"

I.G General/S.M Captain/ S.O.B Equivelant/Inquisitor (delete where aplicable)
"the god-emporer says all xenos/heretics/unsanctioned mutants shall be killed because man is the only race allowed to exist in the universe, you are the inferior race goodbye"

*Bang*

*Tau Commander drops dead*

Random Guarsman
"BOOM! HEADSHOT!"


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

dtq said:


> Most of the fiction makes it quite clear that the imperium is a small part of the total galaxy, a million worlds roughly amongst billions of systems. The Astromican has quite a limited range really, and ship crews arent keen on going out of the range of the astronomican.


Yeah but that doesnt mean that the worlds of the Imperium dont stretch across most of the galaxy. The range of the astronomican is due to terra being in the galactic west. So the eastern fringes are abit of signal range *bangs mobile in frustration* which is why the nids got so far in before being spotted and the tau havent been wiped out.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

KarlFranz40k said:


> Yeah but that doesnt mean that the worlds of the Imperium dont stretch across most of the galaxy. The range of the astronomican is due to terra being in the galactic west. So the eastern fringes are abit of signal range *bangs mobile in frustration* which is why the nids got so far in before being spotted and the tau havent been wiped out.


I agree, Imperial teritory stretches almost the length and width of the galaxy (as the Great Crusade had effectively conquered the galaxy and brought about 'Pax Imperialis') 

Although yes the Imperium is basically stretched to breaking point. It is surrounded on ALL sides by enemies, and corrupted right to its core. As far as im aware the last time the Imperium was on the offensive was the Damocles Crusade. Since then it has only fought on the defensive, and History dictates that when an empire stops expanding it slowly declines!


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> Random Guarsman
> "BOOM! HEADSHOT!"


Since when could IG get headshots???

No the Imperium doesnt own loads all the plannets, Imperial worlds are VERY spread out. This is the benefit of the Tau Empire in the fact they own pretty much every plannet close to them. Also with the inablity to defend/comunicate/'detect govoners denouncing their loyalty to the toilet' they can lose plannets pretty quickly. Still though, they have a fair few plannets and besides, those that they dont control are a good shield from the Hive Fleets :biggrin:


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## Inquisitor_ball (May 12, 2008)

at the same time the imperium isnt even on a true fwar setting, and most of the imperial worlds are mostly uneffected by war.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

yes the imperium is stretched thin. they may not own the whole galaxy but the planets that are in the imperium are all over the place. for the most part the bulk of their military forces are on the fringes where the fighting really is, the planets more inward to the imperium that are surrounded by loyal imperial planets are largely unaffected by some of the massive wars at its edges.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> yes the imperium is stretched thin. they may not own the whole galaxy but the planets that are in the imperium are all over the place. for the most part the bulk of their military forces are on the fringes where the fighting really is, the planets more inward to the imperium that are surrounded by loyal imperial planets are largely unaffected by some of the massive wars at its edges.


Pretty much sums it up i think :good:

But although the majority of the fighting takes place on the Imperiums edges, There are Orks literally Everywhere, and many an enemy have invaded the Segmentum Solar. 

Theres also the problem of traitors and heretics, who pop up all over the Imperium, bringing war to the core of the Imperium. 

So Although most of the conventional wars take place on the outskirts of its borders, there is a constant threat of invasion/war everywhere in the Imperium (whether it be from traitors, daemonic incursions, Eldar (Webway gates are everywhere!), All these threats can occur virtually anywhere.)


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Whilst it might be true the Imperium is spread out, its not necesarily a weakness. A well spread out empire is one thats hard to "sweep" out and destroy. Trying to destroy every imperial world would be needle in a haystack time. A massed super fleet trying to destroy the imperium would take forever to find and destroy every system, if the imperium was limited to one small area it would be far easier to search and overwhelm system by system.

Vast dispersal might mean weak links for central control, but its great for survival of the species.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Good job the orks are attacking it in exactly the same fashion. Oh and of course the Eldar and dark Eldar can pretty much go anywhere, can't they? And the Necrons of course could be anywhere too. Oh yeah, and the Daemons. And the Tau are happy enough to assimilate any Imperial world they come across rather than rolling back the Imperium. Oh and a good job the Tyrannids don't care what they eat.

In fact, on your thesis, the only race that is hindered by the Imperium's spread out deployment is one that is actually trying to _defeat_ the Imperium, ie Chaos. Everything else I'm pretty sure is happy to just pick away at the bits they can reach.

:somewhat sceptical cyclops:


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Red Orc said:


> Good job the orks are attacking it in exactly the same fashion. Oh and of course the Eldar and dark Eldar can pretty much go anywhere, can't they? And the Necrons of course could be anywhere too. Oh yeah, and the Daemons. And the Tau are happy enough to assimilate any Imperial world they come across rather than rolling back the Imperium. Oh and a good job the Tyrannids don't care what they eat.
> 
> In fact, on your thesis, the only race that is hindered by the Imperium's spread out deployment is one that is actually trying to _defeat_ the Imperium, ie Chaos. Everything else I'm pretty sure is happy to just pick away at the bits they can reach.
> 
> :somewhat sceptical cyclops:


Well The empire managed to go from 1 planet to 1,000,000 systems, despite all the other races efforts. I havent heard that the Imperium is shrinking any yet. Perhaps the strategy is working?

In fact the orks specifically are a very good reason for wide dispersal a waaagh can only go so far. Orks arent masters of accurate long distance travel, they might chip away at areas here and there, but its not one centrally controlled ork force its lots of smaller waaaghs taking areas, but they are no where near as much threat as they would be if all of the Imperium was based up around the maelstrom area.

The Tau again arent big on long distance travel they are quite limited distribution and only a threat within their area. Again if the Empire were all bunched up close to the tau they would be more of a threat.

If the Imperium were all in one area then its quite possible they would have been overwhelmed already, but even if they suffer heavy losses in one area the imperium as a whole shrugs it off, they lose systems at times, but one system loss is no big deal. They still conquer new systems as well.

The Squats showed the danger of localisation. If they had followed the imperiums wide dispersal pattern they may still be around :laugh:


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## weasly (Jun 18, 2008)

What should be remember is that while the Imperium planets are few and far between, there are a huge amount of uninhabitable worlds, that no one could have, or are worth nothing so whats the point in taking them?


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

weasly said:


> What should be remember is that while the Imperium planets are few and far between, there are a huge amount of uninhabitable worlds, that no one could have, or are worth nothing so whats the point in taking them?


Whilst many systems might not be habitable they can still be colonized if they have valuable resources! mining worlds etc could be built on completely atmosphereless planets. 

Has the imperium lost all its terraforming technology? I know they've lost a lot and that might be one from the dark age of technology, I really dont know.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> Whilst it might be true the Imperium is spread out, its not necesarily a weakness. A well spread out empire is one thats hard to "sweep" out and destroy. Trying to destroy every imperial world would be needle in a haystack time. A massed super fleet trying to destroy the imperium would take forever to find and destroy every system, if the imperium was limited to one small area it would be far easier to search and overwhelm system by system.
> 
> Vast dispersal might mean weak links for central control, but its great for survival of the species.


What about the old saying "Crush the head and the rest of the body will fall."

If Terra was assaulted and conquered the rest of the Imperium would collapse. Mainly due to the fact that if the Emperor was killed the Astronomican would fail, and Chaos would engulf the galaxy :good:


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't think Abbadon with the entirity of the Chaos Legions plus daemon forces could ever get near Terra, let alone assault it. They can't break the gates, they won't break the keep. 

The Tau can't reach Terra, let alone take it with the small forces they ahve. Codex says if the Imperium put a lot into it, they could obliterate the Tau. 

Eldar and Dark Eldar are too few to even try something that stupid. 

Tyranids and Orks are a distance away, and a Hive Fleet coudn't take a world form the Ultramarines. The Adeptus Custodes are supposedly even mroe pwoerful then an individual Space Marine plus all the other forces around the planet. 

The head is uncuttable. If you want to defeat the Imperium, you ened to take it, piece by piece. Good luck with that. Fact is the Imperium...is undefeatble at this point. The head is too tough, and the rest is so dispersed and massive to be conquered by all the enemies of the empire. Dispersal method= Working well. 

Also, who said the Imperium hasn't been on the offensive? Massed crusades are always taking palce, reclaiming world that have recently fallen, or fell years and years ago. For every system lost, five are retaken. It's an endless war, but not a losing one...nor a winning one.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What about the old saying "Crush the head and the rest of the body will fall."
> 
> If Terra was assaulted and conquered the rest of the Imperium would collapse. Mainly due to the fact that if the Emperor was killed the Astronomican would fail, and Chaos would engulf the galaxy :good:


If Terra did fall the emperor would be freed from the golden throne and finally reincarnate to re-start the great crusade. The thing with the wide dispersal is that even if Terra did fall humanity itself would continue to exist all over the galaxy, survival of the species is a greater imperative than the administrative structure of the highlords of Terra.

Once the emperor reincarnated he could begin again on a single planet of the Imperium and rebuild again. Humanity managed to weather the storms of the age of apostasy in the 36th millenia. When hundreds of systems were cut off for hundreds of years from the imperium and all but local warp travel was difficult to impossible for most of the Imperium. A century or two without terra would without a doubt be a blow to the empire, but the emperor reborn would have a stronger base to restart from than he did with the great crusade.

There are no known disasters that could take out Humanity that wouldnt pretty much destroy every other race at the same time. So far Terra is looking relatively safe, with Horus gone the unity and strength of numbers for chaos of the Horus heresy are gone.

The Empire does still conquer new worlds, Macharius managed around 1000 worlds in 7 years - a world conquered every 2.5 days :shok:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> If Terra did fall the emperor would be freed from the golden throne and finally reincarnate to re-start the great crusade. The thing with the wide dispersal is that even if Terra did fall humanity itself would continue to exist all over the galaxy, survival of the species is a greater imperative than the administrative structure of the highlords of Terra.
> 
> Once the emperor reincarnated he could begin again on a single planet of the Imperium and rebuild again. Humanity managed to weather the storms of the age of apostasy in the 36th millenia. When hundreds of systems were cut off for hundreds of years from the imperium and all but local warp travel was difficult to impossible for most of the Imperium. A century or two without terra would without a doubt be a blow to the empire, but the emperor reborn would have a stronger base to restart from than he did with the great crusade.
> 
> ...


:angry::ireful2:!!! :laugh:

The Emperor will not rise again!! He himself knew that, the whole point of the 40k story is that it is a grimdark one, one of no hope for humanity. I have given loads of reasons in other posts as to why he cannot rise again. (feel free to argue against this point, but you cannot simply assume that he will rise again, all the evidence points to the fact that he wont rise again.)

And without the Emperor, Humanity automatically falls to Chaos. His soul is the only thing holding the tide of Chaos at bay.

I wasn't talking about completley destroying humanity, just it falling to Chaos.

Without the Astronomican warp travel is not possible - therefore this is another reason why without the Emperor the Imperium is helpless.

And the crusades of Lord Solar Macharius ended around 599 years ago, im sure i read somewhere that the last offensive by the Imperium was the Damocles Crusade. Will try and find the source :good:



Atsuno11 said:


> I don't think Abbadon with the entirity of the Chaos Legions plus daemon forces could ever get near Terra, let alone assault it. They can't break the gates, they won't break the keep.
> 
> The Tau can't reach Terra, let alone take it with the small forces they ahve. Codex says if the Imperium put a lot into it, they could obliterate the Tau.
> 
> ...


-Maybe the Warmaster and the traitor legions couldn't reach/take Terra by themselves but there are several other factors to be taken into account. The Cadian Gate (which has basically fallen to the 13th Crusade) is an easily defendable area, a bottle-neck which is the only safe way in and out of the Eye, giving a huge advantage to the defending Imperials. There is no other easily defendable zone between the Eye and Terra, once the Cadian gate has fallen (Cadia itself already has, its only a matter of time :good it will be generally easy for the Warmaster to reach the Sol System. 

There is also the fact of the Emperor, when the golden throne fails (which it will) the Emperor will die and the Imperium with him. When the Golden Throne fails the Imperial Webway will be burst open and Terra will become a Daemon-world, as its the Emperor through the Golden Throne who is keeping the webway gate sealed. 

Also lets not forget that Daemons are infinite in number.

-Ok yes, the Tau currently pose no major threat to the Imperium, however they are rapidly growing in strength and their technology is advancing rapidly. Everytime a major incursion occurs in the Imperium (Black Crusades, Hive fleets, Major Ork Waaaghs! etc) the Imperium is forced to withdraw troops from the eastern fringe to support imperial forces facing said threats, the Tau take advantage of this and keep expanding (note the 3rd Sphere of Expansion)

-Eldar and Dark Eldar indeed arn't reckless enough to go anywhere near Terra, but they are indeed just another enemy which surrounds the Imperium.

-Tyranids and Orks pose a big threat to the Imperium and Terra. Hivefleet Leviathan is nearing the borders of the Segmentum Solar, and several Ork Waaaghs! have occured within Segmentum Solar, fairly close to Terra! although their both not an immediate threat to Terra, there will inevitably be an occasion when they will be.

-A major one you forgot was the Necrons :good: - now these guys pose a major threat to Terra. The Void Dragon is slumbering on Mars, and if he awakes Terra/Emperor = screwed! Abaddon recieved a vision from a daemon-oracle revealing to Abaddon that the Void Dragon is on mars, Abaddon cackles and intends to take advantage of this.

The head is cuttable, and it will inevitably fall. Whether in a hundred years, a thousand, or five thousand years, Terra will fall.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Humanity survived the entire Age of Strife in similar conditions to what would occur if the Emperor did vanish. The Emperor was created by human means in the past, if needed it could be so again.

What would really happen if the Imperium collapsed would be the rapid spread of psykers. Nobody quite knows what that would do. Yes it would be ideal for chaos to attack but would also vastly increase the chances that humanity might reach the levels of races such as the Eldar in terms of psychic power.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

G_Morgan said:


> Humanity survived the entire Age of Strife in similar conditions to what would occur if the Emperor did vanish. The Emperor was created by human means in the past, if needed it could be so again.
> 
> What would really happen if the Imperium collapsed would be the rapid spread of psykers. Nobody quite knows what that would do. Yes it would be ideal for chaos to attack but would also vastly increase the chances that humanity might reach the levels of races such as the Eldar in terms of psychic power.


Nope wrong, without the Emperor - Chaos automatically wins.

My Source for this is the Chaos Daemons codex, so it is Canon.

Here is the quote:

"...For without the Emperors protection, Mankind would be scattered and alone in the darkness, utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos. Humanity's damnation would bring about the victory of the Dark Gods and the Realm of Chaos would engulf the galaxy."

Without the Emperor the galaxy is doomed. :good:

And during the Age of Strife the Emperor was still around, guiding and protecting mankind, just not in the public eye, in the background.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

The emperor is essentially dead. no matter what anyone says, hes really just a corpse. the only thing that keeps humanity from falling completely into chaos is the fact that they still believe the emperor is capable of guiding them. Without the belief that the emperor is able to pass on his guidance mankind would surely fall to chaos.

The only line between that and the state the imperium is in now are the Space Marines, Imperial Gaurd, and anyone else who is brave enough and faithful enough to fight along side these men.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> :angry::ireful2:!!! :laugh:
> 
> The Emperor will not rise again!! He himself knew that, the whole point of the 40k story is that it is a grimdark one, one of no hope for humanity. I have given loads of reasons in other posts as to why he cannot rise again. (feel free to argue against this point, but you cannot simply assume that he will rise again, all the evidence points to the fact that he wont rise again.)
> 
> ...


So the reincarnating shamans who became the Emperor have completely lost their ability to reincarnate? I will side with the Illuminati myself, the way I see it the Emperor is the result of the combination of thousands of reincarnating beings reincarnating to one body and hes now spoon fed power through the faith of the imperial subjects and through the daily intake of psykers, I see nothing that would prevent him from carrying on the reincarnation, as its part of his fundamental nature.

If the Emperor dissapeared forever, the human race would perhaps fall to chaos, system by system, some planets far faster than others. However we have fiction showing worlds cut off from the Imperium completely for over 200 years WITH chaos worshipping natives yet the imperials still not falling to chaos. Last time the Emperor reincarnated it took a year for him to be born.

Warp travel is possible with the astronomican its just slow and dangerous, but not impossible, once the Emperor returned he could reestablish the astrogation system he had in place before his ascension to the golden throne. Warp Travel didnt require the direct guidance of the Emperor before his "death" it required a system he setup which was supposedly destroyed in the fighting on terra.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> If the Emperor dissapeared forever, the human race would perhaps fall to chaos, system by system, some planets far faster than others. However we have fiction showing worlds cut off from the Imperium completely for over 200 years WITH chaos worshipping natives yet the imperials still not falling to chaos. Last time the Emperor reincarnated it took a year for him to be born.


Your misinterpreting what im saying. Without the Emperor Humanity gives in to Chaos, and is enslaved by the gods, the warp will literally spill out and engulf the galaxy.

I have two quotes (both are canon) from the 5th ed rulebook and the Chaos Daemons codex.

From the Rulebook:
"...and that the Emperor's will holds Chaos at bay. Were it not for his unceasing struggle, the Chaos of the Warp would flood the material realm with madness and horror."

From the Codex:
"...For without the Emperors protection, Mankind would be scattered and alone in the darkness, utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos. Humanity's damnation would bring about the victory of the Dark Gods and the Realm of Chaos would engulf the galaxy."

The Warp Gods have grown to such power and influence that they can enslave all mortals and allow the warp to flood the galaxy with its madness. The Emperor is the only thing preventing this happening, he alone is holding back the tide of chaos. There is no conventional method of combating Chaos.



dtq said:


> Warp travel is possible without the astronomican its just slow and dangerous, but not impossible, once the Emperor returned he could reestablish the astrogation system he had in place before his ascension to the golden throne. Warp Travel didnt require the direct guidance of the Emperor before his "death" it required a system he setup which was supposedly destroyed in the fighting on terra.


Warp Travel without the Astronomican is more than 'slow and dangerous' its almost always fatal and is almost never attempted for its basically suicide. There is no way to navigate through the warp without the Astronomican, so they could end up literally anywhere, or just drift around within or be consumed by the chaos of the warp. 

Here is a quote:
"Destroying the Astronomican would most likely halt all Imperial warp travel within the galaxy, effectively bringing the Imperium to its knees."


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your misinterpreting what im saying. Without the Emperor Humanity gives in to Chaos, and is enslaved by the gods, the warp will literally spill out and engulf the galaxy.
> 
> I have two quotes (both are canon) from the 5th ed rulebook and the Chaos Daemons codex.
> 
> ...


I would interpret that very differently to you I would see the chaos of the warp flooding the material realm as meaning more chaos worshippers year by year bringing about more demon hosts and more chaos shrines etc etc, not the immaterium and the matterium becoming one united "place".


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> I would interpret that very differently to you I would see the chaos of the warp flooding the material realm as meaning more chaos worshippers year by year bringing about more demon hosts and more chaos shrines etc etc, not the immaterium and the matterium becoming one united "place".


You think the phrase "Utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos" means that a few more Chaos shrines will pop up every year?!

The percentage of human psykers is steadily rising with every passing generation, already increasing the influence of the Warp Gods, Daemon-hosts, and Chaos Shrines...

"...would bring about the victory of the Dark gods" this tied in with another quote: "The Great gods of Chaos have the same goal: total domination." sums up what would happen to the galaxy.

Chaos whispers to every man, the Emperor is protecting humanity ("...shields humanity from the worst depredations of Chaos"), without him Humanity would literally give in and fall to Chaos.

EDIT: Found a better quote which sums it up

"There is but one reason why Mankind has not already been plunged into a nightmare age of slavery to the Dark Gods of Chaos - the Emperor."


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You think the phrase "Utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos" means that a few more Chaos shrines will pop up every year?!
> 
> "...would bring about the victory of the Dark gods" this tied in with another quote: "The Great gods of Chaos have the same goal: total domination." sums up what would happen to the galaxy.
> 
> Chaos whispers to every man, the Emperor is protecting humanity ("...shields humanity from the worst depredations of Chaos"), without him Humanity would literally give in and fall to Chaos.


I think the fall would be massive but astronimcally slow, and the victory that it spoken of would be the victory of the 4 chaos powers over the Emperor I dont believe that the emperor is all thats shielding the necrons, the orks the tyranids etc etc from total annhilation.

How would mankind falling to chaos allow the chaos powers overthrow the orks and tyranids over night? even with all human kind and traitor marines together couldnt wipe out the orks, and tyranids.

What you see as an immediate tidal wave I see as a slow creep.

I dont believe the Emperor is the only thing holding the immaterium from combining with the materium any more than I believe that the emperor could close the eye of terror with just a bit more effort.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> EDIT: Found a better quote which sums it up
> 
> "There is but one reason why Mankind has not already been plunged into a nightmare age of slavery to the Dark Gods of Chaos - the Emperor."


Now that I see makes complete sense the one thing that stops mankind worshipping chaos is the worship of the emperor its not the emperor running magic tricks to prevent mankinds fall, its the rigorous teachings of the imperial creed, its the inquisition keeping the populations pure. 

Its because of the Emperor but not a "special power" of his that keeps mankind falling.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> Now that I see makes complete sense the one thing that stops mankind worshipping chaos is the worship of the emperor its not the emperor running magic tricks to prevent mankinds fall, its the rigorous teachings of the imperial creed, its the inquisition keeping the populations pure.
> 
> Its because of the Emperor but not a "special power" of his that keeps mankind falling.


I disagree i believe that the Emperor himself through his massive psychic talents is shielding humanity, and the rest of the galaxy. The quote doesn't say the one thing saving humanity is 'belief in the Emperor' it says 'The Emperor' - he himself is shielding humanity.



dtq said:


> I think the fall would be massive but astronimcally slow, and the victory that it spoken of would be the victory of the 4 chaos powers over the Emperor I dont believe that the emperor is all thats shielding the necrons, the orks the tyranids etc etc from total annhilation.
> 
> How would mankind falling to chaos allow the chaos powers overthrow the orks and tyranids over night? even with all human kind and traitor marines together couldnt wipe out the orks, and tyranids.
> 
> ...


Again, i think it means that with humanities downfall Chaos' influence and Power would grow extremley. The Warp would hold sway over the Material Realm, The Chaos Gods would directly Rule. The Orks and 'nids would be mere playthings for the daemons that would reside within the Chaotic Galaxy.

Anyhow the Chaos Gods have already triumphed over the Emperor; The Horus Heresy?


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree i believe that the Emperor himself through his massive psychic talents is shielding humanity, and the rest of the galaxy. The quote doesn't say the one thing saving humanity is 'belief in the Emperor' it says 'The Emperor' - he himself is shielding humanity.


You see I would see it the same way as saying "The Government maintains order" when in fact "The Government" do little more than sign orders and pontificate whilst scoring points from one another. Bodies reporting to the Government maintain order.

I would see it as if the Emperor had never existed humanity would have fallen. If he had died with no hope of return at the end of the horus heresy then mankind would have fallen so its because he exists, but not by his direct power. But I can see where you are coming from, I just see it differently.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

For what it's worth, I think the two of your, dtq, and Child of the Emperor (bit of a mouthful, can I call you Child instead ;D?) are both correct, in the assumption over slow creep, or rushing tidal wave.

It's going to be exponential - that much is obvious, like the domino effect.

First there will be a slight trickle, then the huge rush.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> For what it's worth, I think the two of your, dtq, and Child of the Emperor (bit of a mouthful, can I call you Child instead ;D?) are both correct, in the assumption over slow creep, or rushing tidal wave.
> 
> It's going to be exponential - that much is obvious, like the domino effect.
> 
> First there will be a slight trickle, then the huge rush.


Hehe i guess Child is fine! k:

And yea i guess 

But either way Chaos wins :good:


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Hehe i guess Child is fine! k:
> 
> And yea i guess
> 
> But either way Chaos wins :good:


I think its a good chance that Chaos will win regardless.

The only chances of Chaos "failing" are for the tyranids to swallow the galaxy destroying all "emotion" that feeds chaos. Or the Emperor leaving the golden throne and taking on the chaos powers, which doesnt stop them being "reborn" at a later point.

I do believe though that although chaos may gain power over the entire galaxy they will fall eventually fall victim to the second law of thermodynamics. :grin:


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

What makes me doubt that the chaos onslaught would be a gradual encounter is the fact that they have been trying to enslave mankind for over 10,000 years. The death of the Emperor would not signal a "knee-jerk" response but a fully fledged chaos invasion. Warp storms would rage everywhere and daemons would tear worlds apart. The Emperor is a barrier, the last barrier in fact, that keeps chaos in check. It has never been removed before so using previous examples of his isolation to explain mankind's ability to survive is not effective. On the flip the speed of mankind's fall has not been explained either.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

The Imperium is a stagnant beast that will not fall for many centuries unless something of catastrophic and epic proportions struck at the heart of the Imperium. ie. The Emperor dies...


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Firstly, I like the image of the emperor as the boy with his finger in the ****. 

Second: I don't know how much one should rely on the fluff of any codex when it says (in effect) "This army you've chosen is so awesome that one day it will rule the (imaginary) galaxy".

Would you be excited as a tyranid player if they were "the _pretty good _ devourer, but probably wont devour EVERYTHING"?

There's grandiose statements in every codex about how awesome each army is. In fact I reckon that if you read each codex, one after the other, the one you read last would end up "winning"

Back to the debate however, the fundamental difference between the last age of strife and a second is that the Chaos powers are now like a wasp nest that's been poked with a stick, so the wasps are angry and keen to hurt. 

There would be horrific losses; but I'd never underestimate humanities ability to survive. Sure the imperium might die, but humanity would survive.


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

That is true, it says in the Ork, Tyranid and Necron codex that they will all eventually conquer the galaxy, probably in the CSM one too but I've never read it.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

The codexs all try and sell the army to you. It's GW propaganda for the army. (i don't mean that in a bad way, but elts face it...Sms are not as tough as nails as they are made out to be) 

As for Chaos winning, unlikly. In fact the only army I can see winning is the Orks. All they want is a good fight, they don't really care about dieing at the end  

But honestly, A) the war will never end because we would not ahve our game and B) It's hard to say, using fluff, who will iwn i nthe end. ((I hope that some day, if GW chooses to end 40k, it will be done magnificently! All though, to be hoenst, good guys ahve a tendency of coming out on top...just something I wanna point out. Yes...I am a loyalist...XD))


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Atsuno11 said:


> ...I hope that some day, if GW chooses to end 40k, it will be done magnificently! All though, to be hoenst, good guys ahve a tendency of coming out on top...just something I wanna point out. Yes...I am a loyalist...


You backed the wrong side then (possibly even picked the wrong game?), if you want 'the good guys' to win, as the Imperium is made up of insanely religious racist murderers.

GW keep saying 'there are no good guys', but if you want to look for some, I'd suggest Orks, Necrons or Tyrannids (who make no moral choices about what they do, and are therefore not 'evil' per se), or just possibly Tau, who at least say 'join us or die' rather than just 'die'.

But none of them are exactly _nice_, know what I mean?

But, back to the topic of whether in _fluff terms_ the Imperium can survive, it's certainly true that we're never going to see the "Pretty Good Devourer..." as each army needs to be described as awesome in some way. Likewise, from the Imperium's point of view, the _threats_ must be massive, else why have SMs, SoB, Grey Knights, and billions of Guard anyway?

I don't think the Imperium can survive (not that I see GW going there), but the tensions in the Imperium, its failing technology, the constant rebellions under the influence of Chaos and the Genestealer Cults, the awakening Necrons (increasing all the time), the constant attacks of the Orks, all these things contribute to the ongoing failure of the Imperium.

In this scheme, the least important threats are the Tau (because localised) and the Eldar (because in the end too small). But they don't help.

In the end though I think it's the Imperium's own internal problems that will see it disintergrate. Every repressive state falls to bits (or is pushed over) sooner or later. Humanity _will_ survive; but the Imperium has a limited lifespan in my analysis.

:historical-materialist cyclops:


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

If chaos ever were to win it would consume itself anyway. A victory for chaos would just leave the galaxy empty and as a result it would calm the immaterium completely. In fact this is exactly what certain xenos scum were hoping for.

It is heavily hinted that Tzeentch intentionally keeps chaos from winning because its victory is its defeat, as is the way of chaos.

Also there is no fluff which actually says the emperor is incapable of reincarnating and plenty that focuses on its possibility. Nor is there anything to say his original method of creation is now beyond humanity (though I suspect the inquisition might want words with anyone who attempts to create a new emperor).


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

i think people have pretty much already come to a conclusion about the OP's question, but just to add my voice, i always thought that Bilbo Baggin's description of how he felt was quite apt. "like butter scraped thin over too much bread".

the Imperium of Man is a confusing and contrary thing. on the one hand, humans populate a truely vast expanse of space and of all the races, they can be said to be the dominant force of the galaxy (sure there are plenty more Orks who are even further afield, but they cannot manipulate the world around them to the same degree). but on the other hand, the vast majority of these colonies are the dead or dying remnants of the first great push into the galaxy, which has never been matched since. the current sphere of influence of the Imperium doesn't even cover all the humans in the galaxy (although they the central government would still regard such 'lost' colonies as being citizens). so whilst space is a wild frontier, it is difficult to find the 'edge' of human colonisation.

the other thing to consider is that space is unimaginably vast. if you think you are starting to get a handle on how big the distances within the solar system are, and how seriously those distances would effect life on seperate planets then you have got your sums wrong. we could, potentially, inhabit maybe 3 more bodies within our own solar system, but that is hardly surprising considering that life can already be found in this neighbourhood. most other solar systems would not contain anywhere suitable for colonisation. the only thing that would act as a draw would be resources, and if they can be found in a more hospitable environment then there would be no point in trying to do it the hard way. that means that human colonies are likely to be really, very, very far apart. even the distance between our solar system and the neighbouring one, means that any passing of information or resources would be severely hampered. the closest start of Alpha Centuri is more than 4 light-years away, meaning that any trip between here and there would not just be a pop to the corner shop, regardless of how fast you might be able to travel. if you were to live as an average person on an average Imperial world, you would be lucky to see someone from another planet. it would be unlikely that within your life time the planet would be visited by someone from further afield than the nearest star system.

added to that, that the image we are given of the average Imperial planet is that it is only a little above medieval Europe (and that's only because of technology handed down to in through regression and not developement), and we realise that the economy and population of a average planet would be very small indeed. its quite probable that connection to the Imperium is little more than paying heed to idle threats and coughing up every few generations with the tax man gets into the sector.

sure, we hear a lot about planets that are more central to the action, ones that are in suitable positions to tithe Guardsmen, with better resources for creating manufatoriums, and ones that are at political cross-roads that allow for them to develope into hiveworlds. all of which are worth fighting over, but are not the most common form of celestial body.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

They are definately good points; I agree that for many inhabitants of the Imperium, the only 'offworlders' they're likely to see will be from some other sub-colony in the same system, but I wonder if you've considered the effect of colonisation nearer the galactic core? 

I absolutely agree that the situation near Terra - even if it is the most well-known and longest-settled sector - and in the Eastern Rim would be like that; systems maybe 2-5 light-years from their nearest neighbour, some small colonies and a few larger ones (probably, the ones we've heard of); not sure that there wouldn't be bases even in inhospitable systems though, but probably only small mining/extraction colonies and small military presences, perhaps the odd prison-planet or something.

But nearer the galactic core the density of systems is _much_ greater. I would expect the overall density number of systems in a given volume to maybe 50 times greater. So instead of Terra's half a dozen "near" neighbours (say, in a 20-light-year radius, and only counting systems) you'd maybe have 300 inhabited systems in the same distance. That would both make inter-stellar travel around those worlds more likely, but also tend to help to develop settlement density on those worlds, so they would likely have greater populations as a result.

Just some thoughts. Feel free to shoot them down. But my fairly firm conviction is that the region towards the Core would both be more densely populated (also with Orks and Necrons of course) and also, for want of a better term, more 'developed'.

:economic geography cyclops:


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

While logistics are well worth a mention i don't see how they could slow down an invasion from the warp. The warp is a realm in which the laws of space and time break down. Now if the warp were to bleed over into the material realm following the death of the Emperor (my assumption of what the Emperor's death would mean) then distance would not matter. The Imperium would be paralysed and at the mercy of warp storms. Every system would be isolated in the blink of an eye and nothing would be able to hold back the storm.


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