# grey knights and custodes



## MontytheMighty

According to the material I've read, the average custodian and the average grey knight are both more powerful than the average space marine

custodians are made through a different process than that used to create space marines and grey knights are basically a chapter of specially trained librarians

I'm not sure if there are any psykers among the custodians but there has never been any mention of them, so either they're very rare or don't exist 

it seems to me that in clash between a custodian and a grey knight the fact that the grey knight is a powerful psyker would probably win the day...any thoughts? 

[yes I know this smacks of a versus thread, sorry]


----------



## Scathainn

Well, Custodians lost their armor post-Heresy, so there's an advantage to the Grey Knights there....on the other hand, we _are_ talking about the people who's job it is to _protect the Emperor_, so they're bound to be pretty well trained.

I'm not sure, personally.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Well i still think they have their armour, they just don't wear it. I reckon if they had to fight a unit like the Grey Knights, they might crack the armour out.


----------



## comrade

Well the fact that thier is 10,000 + custodes gives them an edge against the Grey Knights, and I think they have minor psychic capabilities, and a resistance to Psychic powers.

Custodes are to space marines, what marines are to guardsmen.

The Custode process was superior to Astartes, but very time consuming, the astartes process is the streamlined version, you know, like the 4ed Chaos Space Marines codex.


----------



## Doelago

No idea if we are to be honest... There is the fact that the Grey Knights have psychic powers, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Riders, and I imagine that the Custodes have none of those... I would image that Custodes wore something equal to power armor, or Artificer Armor, but probably not, and thats if they wore any armor...

But the Custodes are the protectors of the (most holy) Emperor, so they are bound to be great warriors... And there are probably more of them than there are Grey Knights...


----------



## Baron Spikey

Doelago said:


> No idea if we are to be honest... There is the fact that the Grey Knights have psychic powers, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Riders, and I imagine that the Custodes have none of those... I would image that Custodes wore something equal to power armor, or Artificer Armor, but probably not, and thats if they wore any armor...
> 
> But the Custodes are the protectors of the (most holy) Emperor, so they are bound to be great warriors... And there are probably more of them than there are Grey Knights...


Custodes armour was, if anything, better than Power Armour- it gave the same level of protection but wasn't as bulky or constraining.

They also have their own version of Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) armour, Dreadnoughts (which look very different from the standard Astartes ones) and a lot of their rhino transports are skimmers instead of tracked vehicles.

Basically they get everything the Astartes get and then more, but they're not significantly more powerful than the Astartes- as in only in the most extreme cases is their greater strength and size noticeable.


----------



## Doelago

Baron Spikey said:


> Custodes armour was, if anything, better than Power Armour- it gave the same level of protection but wasn't as bulky or constraining.
> 
> They also have their own version of Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) armour, Dreadnoughts (which look very different from the standard Astartes ones) and a lot of their rhino transports are skimmers instead of tracked vehicles.
> 
> Basically they get everything the Astartes get and then more, but they're not significantly more powerful than the Astartes- as in only in the most extreme cases is their greater strength and size noticeable.


Wow... The fluff king strikes again... I knew almost nothing about what you just posted...

For the second time today I have to say this, I would like to rep you, but I cant...


----------



## Imperial Valor

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

Got the Terminator, Skimmer Rhinos, Dreadnoughts and Jet Bikes all here.


----------



## Doelago

Imperial Valor said:


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes
> 
> Got the Terminator, Skimmer Rhinos, Dreadnoughts and Jet Bikes all here.


I have been reading through articles on Lexicanum for the past few days, but had not yet gotten that far... Well, now that one has been covered... So... Just 9999 more to go... :laugh:


----------



## Angel of Blood

Some rather truely excellent pictures of the Custodes, including their armour, tactical dreadnought armour and skimmers in Collected Visions.

Terminator Custodes









"Normal" Custodes looking particularly hardcore









Constantin Valdor









Dreadnought:









They generally just looks very hard


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

The Custodes wouldn't have psykers, would they? After all the Silent Sisters used to hang around with them quite a lot; this would probably cause a lot of problems for the unfortunate Custodes Librarian!
I must say, personally, I don't believe that the Custodes are confined to Terra. At the very least, I can see them still playing the Blood Games; these might be considered even more important now that the Emperor is confined to the Golden Throne.

GFP


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

I don't get why everyone thinks the Custodes are so badass. Sure they had all those cool toys during the Heresy but after that they took of their armor and basicly became mall cops for 10,000 years.

Sure they probably still got the hardware in storage, and the probably train allot, but that's no substitute for actual battle field experience. I think any battle hardened Space Marine chapter could take them down. The only advantage the Custodes would have is fighting on there home turf.

As always just my opinion.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The Custodes wouldn't have psykers, would they? After all the Silent Sisters used to hang around with them quite a lot; this would probably cause a lot of problems for the unfortunate Custodes Librarian!


hmm, good point...I didn't think of that, but yeah I doubt there are custodes psykers but of course I could be wrong 



comrade said:


> Custodes are to space marines, what marines are to guardsmen.


that's what I used to think then someone pointed out on another forum that Tales of Heresy (correct me if I'm wrong) directly addresses the issue...I think the quote went something like "custodians are slightly larger and stronger than marines but no one would be foolish enough to try to predict the outcome of a fight between a marine and a custodian" 

I'd give a significant edge to a grey knight over a custodian in a 1 on 1 duel because the grey knight is a psyker and I believe that huge advantage trumps the slight advantage in size and strength of the custodian 

To be fair I should mention that in Visions of Heresy, Constantin Valdor and a squad of custodians take down a company of Thousand Sons, but it should also be noted that Constantin Valdor was the chief custodian himself and members of his squad were most likely the elite of the elite among the custodians...personally, I thought that the loyalists got the mary sue treatment in Visions, and the traitors were portrayed as ravening hordes 

anyway it seems that the gap between astartes and custodes was purposefully narrowed in later fluff (the Horus Heresy series) to the current barely noticeable difference.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

As well as _Tales of Heresy_ (notably _Blood Games_), _The First Heretic_ gave us a good portrayal of Custodes in comparison to Astartes. They were very _'individual'_ compared to the bonds of brotherhood found among the Astartes Legions. They did not fight as a coherent unit as effectively as the Astartes, but individually their training, equipment and refined creation process resulted in them being superior on an individual basis. How significant this difference was I imagined varied between individuals, but it wasn't _that_ significant.

As for comparing the Adeptus Custodes to the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are clearly superior.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As well as _Tales of Heresy_ (notably _Blood Games_), _The First Heretic_ gave us a good portrayal of Custodes in comparison to Astartes. They were very _'individual'_ compared to the bonds of brotherhood found among the Astartes Legions. They did not fight as a coherent unit as effectively as the Astartes, but individually their training, equipment and refined creation process resulted in them being superior on an individual basis. How significant this difference was I imagined varied between individuals, but it wasn't _that_ significant.
> 
> As for comparing the Adeptus Custodes to the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are clearly superior.


I would be hard pressed to comprehensively disagree (in fact I agree) but how are you _so_ certain? I wouldnt say they are "clearly superior".

I would also point out generally that despite what _Tales of Heresy_ says in _The Fist Heretic_ Vendatha kills a chaplain, a marine and a chapter master single handedly during the ritual, Acquilon always beats Argel Tal in sparring and the surviving Custodes do very well for themselves against posessed Astartes with superior numbers.

So individual astartes versus individual custodes would lead me to say custodes all the way. Dorn's (or whoever it was) musings in _Tales_ have to be overruled by the first hand evidence in _Heretic._

But back to the OP maybe, just maybe a Grey Knight would win but to be honest it hinges on psychic ability, physically custodes are probably superior.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> I don't get why everyone thinks the Custodes are so badass. Sure they had all those cool toys during the Heresy but after that they took of their armor and basicly became mall cops for 10,000 years.
> 
> Sure they probably still got the hardware in storage, and the probably train allot, but that's no substitute for actual battle field experience. I think any battle hardened Space Marine chapter could take them down. The only advantage the Custodes would have is fighting on there home turf.
> 
> As always just my opinion.


I can't even think where to being with disagreeing with this statement.


----------



## Wusword77

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As well as _Tales of Heresy_ (notably _Blood Games_), _The First Heretic_ gave us a good portrayal of Custodes in comparison to Astartes. They were very _'individual'_ compared to the bonds of brotherhood found among the Astartes Legions. They did not fight as a coherent unit as effectively as the Astartes, but individually their training, equipment and refined creation process resulted in them being superior on an individual basis. How significant this difference was I imagined varied between individuals, but it wasn't _that_ significant.
> 
> As for comparing the Adeptus Custodes to the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are clearly superior.


Except when the 1 Custode beat the snot out of everyone at the ritual on Cadia. Only Lorgar was able to react in time, if I remember correctly, before the single Custode killed a bunch of people and was trying for the surface.

Against a Grey Knight? I would say the Grey Knights Psy abilities may make it even, but the Custodes may have some way around it. 

On pure physical ability and skill, like in a practice cage, Custodes win. 

Out side, like on a battle field,where both are aiming to kill each other? I would think it would come down to the individual Custode and Grey Knight but I would put my money on the Custode.


----------



## Hellados

what happened when magnus tore apart the emperors attempt at 'joining' the webway?

from what i remember a hole in warp was torn then in came a ton of chaos things which were butchered by the Custodes?

i vote for the custodes purely because the are bad ass


----------



## Creidim

the custodes from the HH were all battle trained troops, now (and by now i mean 40,000 years away in a fictional universe) their pretty much babysitters and would have to go up against troops that were specifically built so that their brother captains (let alone grand masters) can bitch slap primarchs (Angron on armageddon) and no ones seriously thinking that the custodes are a match for the primarchs are they? really?

I am the hammer......


----------



## Hellados

but why would they not be battle trained? why would they let the training get lighter or the custodes get weaker after they had failed? surely they would get stronger and harder and even more nutty?

also dont the custodes have titans and stuff in support when they fight on terra?


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Even though I am a Grey Knights Player...I have to go with the custodes.

It says in the fluff that they are trained invidually rather than as a squad, so one on one they would be better than a warrior trained to fight in a tight unit.

Besides, Grey Knights are incredibly elite space marines. However, Custodes are to space marines what Space marines are to normal humans.

However fluff wise I dont see why the custodes wouldnt invite a Grey Knight to their yearly blood tournament for a friendly duel.......


----------



## Hellados

maybe a better analogy

space marine = space marine - bad arse, battle hardened, tough as nails, trained exceptionally well etc etc

custodes = SAS - the best of the best, can do anything, body guards, assasins, explosive experts, the best of the best


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

NiceGuyEddy said:


> But back to the OP maybe, just maybe a Grey Knight would win but to be honest it hinges on psychic ability, physically custodes are probably superior.


Firstly it's worth pointing out that rumours suggest that the geneseed of the Grey Knights comes directly from the Emperor himself, where as the creation of the Custodes is generally just put down to a refinement of the Astartes creation process.

Apart from that, what makes me so confident in my conclusions are _Codex: Daemonhunters_ and the Grey Knights Index Astartes article. Some indications from both include:

_'...immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 6.

'All Grey Knights are Psykers...' - Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 24.

'...the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 7.

'The Grey Knights fight with the finest weapons and equipment that the Imperium can produce.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 7.

'...surpassing even their brother Space Marines in skill and ability.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 2.

'...incredibly skilled individuals who excel in every battlefield role.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 2.

'...enable the Space Marines of the Grey Knights to face terrifying foes without fear and withstand pain that would cripple a 'normal' Space Marine' - Index Astartes Purge the Unclean._

And several other indications which point to the Grey Knights literally being *the* finest warriors in the entire Imperium. So not only are the Grey Knights each individually *very* psychically potent (which in itself would probably allow them to trump a custodes), but also extremley well versed in physical combat. Combined with their utter sense of purpose and faith and the finest equipment that the Imperium offers (including psychically charged Nemesis weapons and a copy of the Liber Daemonica) generally puts them above the Adeptus Custodes in my book.


----------



## Serpion5

I would agree that Grey Knights are probably superior, but it would be a damn close fight, after all not even the greatest warriors the Imperium are perfect.

Taking into account everything I know and have read on both factions I would back the Grey Knights as well, but only because after considering all relative data I`ve come to a conclusion that isn`t officially stated anywhere;

After the Heresy, Chaos had become a far more significant threat. Even the mightiest of the Emperor`s forces were insufficient to deal with this threat on the scale needed, lacking in skill and required willpower to combat the denizens of the warp.

So rather than increase the scale needlessly, it was simply deemed appropriate to create a new class of warrior, one perfectly suited to fighting Chaos. These needed to be superior to anything developed before, so the astartes physiology was combined with a mental training and indoctrination unseen before and combined with the greatest combat training regime humanity knew.

So, astartes physiology, excellent combat training as individuals and as units, the best wargear the Imperium has and psychic abilities that can fell Daemon Primarchs and Greater Daemons on occasion.

They would equal the custodes at the very least, but it is my opinion that they would surpass them.


----------



## MontytheMighty

the trump card really is...


> '...the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers.'
> - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 7.


unless the custodes are pariahs I don't see how a custodian could overcome a grey knight's psychic powers 

on a purely physical level I'm not sure how a grey knight and custodian would compare to each other

as for "normal" marines, it seems that in some fluff the difference between custodes and vanilla astartes is minimal but in other fluff the latter gets slapped around all over the place, but usually in the context of loyalists beating up on the baddies


----------



## Warsmith40

One of the key factors being left unconsidered in this discussion is the relative level of the Grey Knights and Custodes fighting. An average Grey Knight has nowhere near the skill and psychic power of a Brother-Captain or Grand Master, and I assume the Custodes have ranks as well.

A regular, and that is merely a relative term, Grey Knight would have a hard time dealing with the average Custodes, while a Justicar might go toe to toe and a Brother-Captain or Grand Master would easily trump. However, a well renowned and skilled Custode champion would probably have even odds against Grey Knight leaders.

I would also like to point out that this is all entirely irrelivent as both Chapter 666 and the Adeptus Custodes would never, ever engage each other in battle as both are completely and unwaveringly loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, in that order of priority. However if both united as a single force, you would have a force of approximately 13,000 of the galaxy's most talented and lethal warriors. If they ever united, I'm fairly certain they could best any force arrayed against them. I'm almost inclined to claim they could cleanse the Maelstrom or even the Eye of Terror.

Also, on a side note, the presence of the Silent Sisterhood where the Custodes go to battle does not perclude their psychic powers. It simply levels the playing field to allow the Custodes superior arms and skills to win the day.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly it's worth pointing out that rumours suggest that the geneseed of the Grey Knights comes directly from the Emperor himself, where as the creation of the Custodes is generally just put down to a refinement of the Astartes creation process.


You make it sound so dirty :laugh:. ‘Refined Astartes’ is still pretty good in my books. But in any case the custodes came before the astartes, there’s a chicken and egg scenario in what you say but I get where you’re coming from and see the problem I think. According to _Tales of Heresy_:

_‘The custodes were the process, some said, that had been refined and simplified to produce the Astartes en masse’ – Tales of Heresy, page 29._

And _Collected Visions_:

_‘The first group of genetically and psychologically modified troops he created were his own personal bodyguard – the Custodian Guard’ – Collected Visions, page 29._

The fault here is Abnett’s. He uses the word “refined” in error; “diluted” is probably what he was looking for. 

If Grey Knight geneseed is ever proven to come from the Emperor I’ll concede this point. I do, however, think it’s unlikely as presumably the only one capable of developing a new strain of geneseed is the Emperor (and arguably even he would need assistance from the chaos gods) who by that stage was on the throne. Maybe he passed on the knowledge maybe he didn’t. Who knows, it COULD come from superman :grin:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _'...immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 6._
> 
> _'...enable the Space Marines of the Grey Knights to face terrifying foes without fear and withstand pain that would cripple a 'normal' Space Marine' - Index Astartes Purge the Unclean._


I doubt a Custodian would plan on scaring them to death nor rely on making them suffer enough pain as to give up. Seriously though the Custodes in The First Heretic faced horrors of the warp too and didn’t back down and I’ve never heard of a Custodian or even a ‘normal’ space marine for that matter being crippled by pain. They’ve been crippled by massive physical injury, sure, but not pain. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _'The Grey Knights fight with the finest weapons and equipment that the Imperium can produce.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 7._


So do Custodes, in fact again so do ‘normal’ astartes. But the Custodes are more than likely the GK’s equal here: 

_‘...they were equip(p)ed with the finest heavy battle power armour and weapons then known. Elements of the armour can be found on the grey knights of later.’ – Collected Visions, page 28.’_

Whether or not ‘elements of...’ can be interpreted as GK armour not being as sophisticated as Custodian armour or vice versa cannot be discerned. Also I know it says ‘then known’ but the passage at least hints at the compatibility (and perhaps equality generally) between both forces and in any case technology since the heresy hasn’t taken too many leaps forward and generally speaking older is better in 40k especially when it comes to war gear.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _'...surpassing even their brother Space Marines in skill and ability.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 2._
> 
> _'...incredibly skilled individuals who excel in every battlefield role.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 2._


So do Custodes. With the exception of perhaps some “battlefield roles” but as _A Thousand Sons_ shows they are no strangers to the battlefield.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _'All Grey Knights are Psykers...' - Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 24.
> 
> '...the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers.' - Codex: Daemonhunters, page 7._


As I’ve already mentioned and do not dispute. The deciding factor.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And several other indications which point to the Grey Knights literally being the finest warriors in the entire Imperium.


Again I would argue the same could be inferred about Custodes from the example I gave earlier from _The First Heretic_ which relates to skill and in regards to strength this from the _Collected Visions_:

_‘Stronger than a space marine, the custodian is a fearsome warrior...’ – Collected Visions, page 29._




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Combined with their utter sense of purpose and faith and the finest equipment that the Imperium offers (including psychically charged Nemesis weapons and a copy of the Liber Daemonica) generally puts them above the Adeptus Custodes in my book.


All very useful for fighting daemons but they won’t make THAT much of a difference against a Custodian. And yes I know what a nemesis weapon is capable of but its power above and beyond that of say a guardian spear depends on the psychic ability of the user and leads me straight back to psychic ability being the deciding factor. In any case faith and purpose are not traits you are likely to find lacking in your average custodian.

Custodes were designed to guard the Emperor, they are the last (and pre heresy often the first) line of defence so don’t you think they would have to be the meanest, toughest, most dangerous pieces of work science has to offer? The word Custodian is derived from the Latin phrase “quis custodiet ipsos custodies” which is used in _Tales of Heresy_ which put simply means “Who will guard the guardians.” Therefore I think that almost by definition they must be equal to if not stronger than everything and anything the imperium (and ideally everything outside the imperium) has to offer.

Ultimately it can be proved that GK’s are superior to normal astartes but they are still, as defined in the Codex Daemonhunters and Index Astartes 2 book, space marines. Space marines as acknowledged above are less refined than custodes. The extent to which GK’s are superior to normal astartes and thus whether or not they jump up a league to Custodian territory or even overtake them is, as Serpion pointed out, not officially stated anywhere. 

To reiterate I think that WITH the psyker card a GK would probably win but I disagree with the assumption that it would be clear cut and that they are clearly superior.


----------



## MuSigma

I think the custodes are more than ceremonial troops, though they were designed to follow the Emperor into battle, I think as in Nemesis they work with political security on terra watching over corruption and infighting, working along side the assassinorum. Basically anything on Terra that needs dealing with. Like a Space Marine Chapter permantly stationed on Terra, very useful, without them protecting the palace any normal powered human could stage a coup.

Custodes will defeat an Astartes in single combat, but space marines when fighting in numbers are better organised.

Grey Knights are not recruited as in the Deathwatch from chapters, they are a full blown chapter in their own right, the process of becoming one invovles more than a normal space marine - the most important being making their minds virtually impregnable to the warp even in the presence of the mightiest demon through various processes which protect the mind with powerful wards. Which is why no Grey Knight can fall to chaos - they are virtually deaf to it. Would be like screaming at a deaf man.

They may not be physically much stronger than a normal space marine but mentally massively more resistant, pity really. It seems the grey knights have finally come up with the final stage of Astartes training that would make all space marines immune to chaos - much needed - and could be the salvation of the Imperium.


----------



## Leman-russ

i dont know why you all talk about psychic power of GK yes they all are have some level of it but they powers are so specialized agents daemons and they are probably best specialized type of SM but that is problem agents other types of enemies 

so my money is on custodes:victory:


----------



## Engindeer

Baron Spikey said:


> Custodes armour was, if anything, better than Power Armour- it gave the same level of protection but wasn't as bulky or constraining.
> 
> They also have their own version of Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) armour, Dreadnoughts (which look very different from the standard Astartes ones) and a lot of their rhino transports are skimmers instead of tracked vehicles.
> 
> Basically they get everything the Astartes get and then more, but they're not significantly more powerful than the Astartes- as in only in the most extreme cases is their greater strength and size noticeable.


About those skimmer rhinos,

Is a single picture of an experimental prototype skimmer rhino, enough to conclude that the custodes have several of them in their arsenal? 

Are they mentioned elsewhere, other than in that outtake in Collected Visions?


----------



## Doelago

Leman-russ said:


> i dont know why you all talk about psychic power of GK yes they all are have some level of it but they powers are so specialized agents daemons and they are probably best specialized type of SM but that is problem agents other types of enemies
> 
> so my money is on custodes:victory:


I am pretty damn sure that they are more than capable of using psychic powers the "normal" Astartes Librarians use... I for one believe that we will see a lot of new psychic powers in the new codex, of which many will be effective against daemons and non-daemons...


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

Woah guys can we have some spoiler alerts on First Heretic quotes? Haven't read it yet! As for the thread, I reckon the Custodes would win as he is better at adapting and has trained for every occasion. Grey Knights are amazing at what they do, but they fight daemons which is a very specific role. Daemons fight with no thought for themselves or try and trick you, a Custodes would use skill, strength and every weapon in his armoury. IMO hands down Custode (and I'm a die hard GK fan!)


----------



## MontytheMighty

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Ultimately it can be proved that GK’s are superior to normal astartes but they are still, as defined in the Codex Daemonhunters and Index Astartes 2 book, space marines. Space marines as acknowledged above are less refined than custodes. The extent to which GK’s are superior to normal astartes and thus whether or not they jump up a league to Custodian territory or even overtake them is, as Serpion pointed out, not officially stated anywhere.


I agree with most of what you said but I don't think the custodes are a "league" above the astartes, according to Tales of Heresy the difference is slight (I admit this is somewhat contradicted in Visions)

I see how you could infer from the fight in First Heretic (which I have not read) that a custodian is a lot better, but it sounds to me that the three Word Bearers killed were surprised while performing a ritual? (correct me if I'm wrong)

again, I think there is inconsistency in the fluff, but I'm going with Abnett on this, I don't buy that custodes were to marines what marines were to guard (I've only read this on 40k wikia and nowhere else), and I do believe the loyalists get a bit of mary sue treatment by BL every now and then regardless of whether they are astartes, custodes, guard etc. 

for example, Gaunt's Ghosts take down a bunch of chaos marines with more ease than you'd expect, bad guys just usually tend to die a lot more


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Warsmith40 said:


> I would also like to point out that this is all entirely irrelivent as both Chapter 666 and the Adeptus Custodes would never, ever engage each other in battle as both are completely and unwaveringly loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, in that order of priority.


Loyalty can be mistaken. Just look at the Age of Apostasy.



Warsmith40 said:


> I'm fairly certain they could best any force arrayed against them. I'm almost inclined to claim they could cleanse the Maelstrom or even the Eye of Terror.


I'm all up for giving credit where it is due. But this is a *massive* exaggeration. The Eye of Terror is literally _huge_, it covers countless systems and sectors. Most planets are Daemon Worlds, and it is a place where Daemons can easily manifest and bathe in the energys of the warp (making them much more numerous and powerful). Almost the entirety of the Traitor Astartes are also present there. The entire Adeptus Custodes and the entire Chapter 666 wouldn't stand a chance of cleansing such a place.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> You make it sound so dirty :laugh:


It's always better that way. 



NiceGuyEddy said:


> If Grey Knight geneseed is ever proven to come from the Emperor I’ll concede this point. I do, however, think it’s unlikely as presumably the only one capable of developing a new strain of geneseed is the Emperor (and arguably even he would need assistance from the chaos gods) who by that stage was on the throne. Maybe he passed on the knowledge maybe he didn’t. Who knows, it COULD come from superman :grin:


Chapter 666 is rumoured to have been founded _'around'_ the time of the second founding. By which time the Emperor had obviously ascended to the Golden Throne. However the pre-release statement for the new _Codex: Grey Knights_ was:

_As the Emperor prepared for his final confrontation with the traitor Horus, he granted one final gift to Mankind, a safeguard and protection against the horrors of the Warp - the Grey Knights. A brotherhood of warriors as elite as they are secretive, the Grey Knights are a shining line of silvered steel that stands between humanity and the Daemons of Chaos._

So we may be seeing a slight change in the lore regarding when the Chapter was founded. It's only ever been rumour anyway though I suppose. But regardless in all sources regarding the Grey Knights the legend/rumour regarding their geneseed coming directly from the Emperor has been mentioned. And if they were actually founded (or ordered to be founded with strict instructions) by the Emperor himself, there is every chance that their geneseed comes directly from Him. 

@_Eddy_: I didn't intend for those quotes to be used for directly comparing the Grey Knights with Custodes, but just as examples of the capabilities and sheer power of the Grey Knights. But that's my bad, should have pointed that out. 

You are quite right though by stating that the Custodes are also superior to Astartes in many ways.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Ultimately it can be proved that GK’s are superior to normal astartes but they are still, as defined in the Codex Daemonhunters and Index Astartes 2 book, space marines. Space marines as acknowledged above are less refined than custodes. The extent to which GK’s are superior to normal astartes and thus whether or not they jump up a league to Custodian territory or even overtake them is, as Serpion pointed out, not officially stated anywhere.
> 
> To reiterate I think that WITH the psyker card a GK would probably win but I disagree with the assumption that it would be clear cut and that they are clearly superior.


I guess it's just my personal interpretation of the lore. But via what I have read, I have always taken the Grey Knights as being by far the most superior individuals in the entire Imperium. But as we've both said, I think the sheer psychic ability of the Grey Knights automatically rates them higher than the Custodians, especially as '...the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers.'


----------



## CJay

I have my money on Custodes. I don't think the psychic powers part really matters. From what I read the psychic powers of many Grey Knights was just a spiritual shield around their soul, or a demon detector. Only those specially gifted could send lightning bolts and fire everywhere. 

With the psychic game nulled, you have a space marine verses a being made of a much higher quality. Like a rally car, vs a sports car. Sure the sports car is high quality, but the rally car is more refined for ass kicking.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Woah guys can we have some spoiler alerts on First Heretic quotes? Haven't read it yet! As for the thread, I reckon the Custodes would win as he is better at adapting and has trained for every occasion. Grey Knights are amazing at what they do, but they fight daemons which is a very specific role. Daemons fight with no thought for themselves or try and trick you, a Custodes would use skill, strength and every weapon in his armoury. IMO hands down Custode (and I'm a die hard GK fan!)


Apologies, I did consider putting in spoiler tags but didn't end up adding them. If its any consolation for the most part I, and most other posts here, have given away nothing that the cover of _The First Heretic_ doesn't tell you, Custodes fight astartes and posessed astartes at some point in the book. Awesome book by the way, many rate it as one of the best in the HH series.k: 



MontytheMighty said:


> I agree with most of what you said but I don't think the custodes are a "league" above the astartes, according to Tales of Heresy the difference is slight (I admit this is somewhat contradicted in Visions)


Yeah its hazy and my term of "league" above wasn't the best, I simply meant "above". I had a metaphor in mind at the time that involved soccer leagues and teams in them but realised it would take to long to add to an already extensive post and the Americans probably wouldn't have gotten it anyway. It wasn't meant to be taken too literally.



MontytheMighty said:


> I see how you could infer from the fight in First Heretic (which I have not read) that a custodian is a lot better, but it sounds to me that the three Word Bearers killed were surprised while performing a ritual? (correct me if I'm wrong)


Surprised? Really? Given the dialogue that preceded the fight they shouldn't have been. I gave other examples too that were present in _The First Heretic_ and I stand by them.



MontytheMighty said:


> again, I think there is inconsistency in the fluff, but I'm going with Abnett on this, I don't buy that custodes were to marines what marines were to guard (I've only read this on 40k wikia and nowhere else), and I do believe the loyalists get a bit of mary sue treatment by BL every now and then regardless of whether they are astartes, custodes, guard etc.


I dont endorse, and never have, the astartes to guard etc gag either. But they are superior, for all the other reasons I listed. Very true by the way about loyalist treatment.

@CotE Fair enough.


----------



## Warsmith40

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Loyalty can be mistaken. Just look at the Age of Apostasy.


Fair point, I can see how that might work out.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'm all up for giving credit where it is due. But this is a *massive* exaggeration. The Eye of Terror is literally _huge_, it covers countless systems and sectors. Most planets are Daemon Worlds, and it is a place where Daemons can easily manifest and bathe in the energys of the warp (making them much more numerous and powerful). Almost the entirety of the Traitor Astartes are also present there. The entire Adeptus Custodes and the entire Chapter 666 wouldn't stand a chance of cleansing such a place.


I admit that was hyperbole on my part. I'd certainly like to argue that the traitor Legions are disorganized, but then again the Eye is filled with all manner of daemons as well. Oh well, one can dream :grin:


----------



## MontytheMighty

CJay said:


> I have my money on Custodes. I don't think the psychic powers part really matters. From what I read the psychic powers of many Grey Knights was just a spiritual shield around their soul, or a demon detector. Only those specially gifted could send lightning bolts and fire everywhere.


hmm, it's good that you brought this up
so what psychic powers would a grey knight use against a custodes if the two were somehow forced to duel on the battlefield?

well other than the spiritual shield, a grey knight channels his psychic might into his nemesis force weapon, I believe force weapons are exceptionally strong against both daemons and non-daemons. I'm under the impression that force weapons have the potential to be the strongest out of all melee weapons. Nemesis weapons are the best force weapons the Imperium has to offer. The destructive power of a force weapon is proportionate to the wielder's psychic strength. Grey Knights are some of the most potent psykers in the Imperium. I think this gives the GK a big advantage, and yes I'm a big GK fan. 

It's also possible that grey knights can do "standard" librarian attacks if they wanted to, it wouldn't make much sense if they couldn't given that grey knights are "screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers"...it's possible that channeling their psychic power into a nemesis weapon is more effective against daemons and simply their preferred method of combat 




> Yeah its hazy and my term of "league" above wasn't the best, I simply meant "above". I had a metaphor in mind at the time that involved soccer leagues and teams in them but realised it would take to long to add to an already extensive post and the Americans probably wouldn't have gotten it anyway. It wasn't meant to be taken too literally.


hehe, the space marine fanboy in me got a bit riled, "what do you mean they're in another league, eh?" 



> Surprised? Really? Given the dialogue that preceded the fight they shouldn't have been. I gave other examples too that were present in _The First Heretic_ and I stand by them.


I admit I haven't read it so you're probably right 



> I dont endorse, and never have, the astartes to guard etc gag either. But they are superior, for all the other reasons I listed. Very true by the way about loyalist treatment.


yeah seems a bit silly really
I think if that were the official line, GW would be shooting itself in the foot, why would they want to undercut the status of their poster-boy marines by making the adeptus astartes a distant second to the legio custodes
I think a lot of the appeal of the marines is that save for the emperor and primarchs, no one can really own them


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

MontytheMighty said:


> yeah seems a bit silly really
> I think if that were the official line, GW would be shooting itself in the foot, why would they want to undercut the status of their poster-boy marines by making the adeptus astartes a distant second to the legio custodes
> I think a lot of the appeal of the marines is that save for the emperor and primarchs, no one can really own them


Absolutely. Who is the "best" is very hard to nail down. I'd be willing to bet that the old "finest warriors in the galaxy" has been said about pretty much every race in some form of codex and fluff be it space marines in the space marine codex, grey knights in the daemonhunters codex hell even certain tyranids and DE incubii have been called the finest warriors in the galaxy at some point in time. 

Ultimately we can all have our own opinions about this topic and link it to actual encounters which given that there are none between GK's and custodes is difficult.


----------



## MontytheMighty

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Absolutely. Who is the "best" is very hard to nail down. I'd be willing to bet that the old "finest warriors in the galaxy" has been said about pretty much every race in some form of codex and fluff be it space marines in the space marine codex, grey knights in the daemonhunters codex hell even certain tyranids and DE incubii have been called the finest warriors in the galaxy at some point in time.
> 
> Ultimately we can all have our own opinions about this topic and link it to actual encounters which given that there are none between GK's and custodes is difficult.


hehe ya, a certain level of ambiguity is definitely in GW's best interests, that way it's easier for codices to go on about how amazingly awesome this or that army is


----------



## MidnightSun

Looking at Custodes on Lexicanum, I don't think they're a match for a Grey Knight. I don't see where the Marine-Custodian is equal to Human-Marine concept is coming from. A Custodian is 'slightly stronger and larger' than a Space Marine. A Marine is not 'slightly stronger and larger' than an ordinary human. I don't know the relative strengths of such things, but the Nemesis Force Weapon looks a damn sight more effective than a laser spear. 'Laser Weapon' just conjurs up an image of weakness, like Lasgun or the Laser weapons hidden in Digital weapons. The Custodes *must* fight with a spear. However, a Grey Knight may fight with various different weapons according to his style of fighting (For example, Brother Dvorn from the Grey Knights series had a Nemesis Force Hammer). Grey Knights have Power Armour, Custodes have leather breeches and a cape. That's it. I don't think the Custodes are up for fighting, to be honest, as from what I see they fulfil a primarily ceremonial role. After all, when was Terra last attacked and is it likely to be attacked any time soon (Immienent invasion, not the far-off jaws of Leviathan, the 13th Black Crusade that's making an somewhat stoppable advance to NOWHERE, or the five Necron raid ships that ran Mars' gauntlet)?

Just my opinions on it,

Midnight


----------



## locustgate

Their spears are Power weapons with a built in bolt gun. I've seen pics of them using storm bolters and power claws, terminators. Along with one with a strange looking flamer.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MidnightSun said:


> Looking at Custodes on Lexicanum, I don't think they're a match for a Grey Knight. I don't see where the Marine-Custodian is equal to Human-Marine concept is coming from. A Custodian is 'slightly stronger and larger' than a Space Marine. A Marine is not 'slightly stronger and larger' than an ordinary human. I don't know the relative strengths of such things, but the Nemesis Force Weapon looks a damn sight more effective than a laser spear. 'Laser Weapon' just conjurs up an image of weakness, like Lasgun or the Laser weapons hidden in Digital weapons. The Custodes *must* fight with a spear. However, a Grey Knight may fight with various different weapons according to his style of fighting (For example, Brother Dvorn from the Grey Knights series had a Nemesis Force Hammer). Grey Knights have Power Armour, Custodes have leather breeches and a cape. That's it. I don't think the Custodes are up for fighting, to be honest, as from what I see they fulfil a primarily ceremonial role. After all, when was Terra last attacked and is it likely to be attacked any time soon (Immienent invasion, not the far-off jaws of Leviathan, the 13th Black Crusade that's making an somewhat stoppable advance to NOWHERE, or the five Necron raid ships that ran Mars' gauntlet)?
> 
> Just my opinions on it,
> 
> Midnight


 
A prime example of why people should not rely on lexicanum. A guardian spear is not a simple laser spear. It is a truely devastating weapon in the hands of anyone, but in the hands of the Custodes it is unimaginable. Power weapon as standard, as they all are, complete with large calibre bolter that they can use to devastating effect. And they do use other weapons aswell, not always a guardian spear, the guardian spear is as much a symbol of office as a deadly weapon, but they have been shown to use other weapons. Custodes wear those garments now, but i gurantee you if they needed to fight such a foe they would crack out their real armour, which is better than power armour (and they also have tactical dreadnought armour) And even then, power armour isn't going to be great against a guardian spear anyway and on the flipside Custodes armour is not gonna be much use against nemisis force weapon of course. Added to the fact that a Custodes should be genetically superior to Astartes, seeing as Astartes are the massed produced version, with seemingly a great deal more care and time being taken to make a Custode

I think people are truely blinkered as well when it comes to the opinion that Custodes aren't going to be good at fighting because nothing attacks Terra. Seriously? You honestly think the Emperor personal guardians, the elite of the elite aren't going to be any good? The very last line of defence to the Ruler of Imperium is going to be protected by guaridans who aren't that great at fighting. Yeah ok. Added to the fact that we don't even know how many there are, other than possibly over 10,000, which is a fucking lot. I'm pretty damn certain they are still as skilled as ever, just as deadly, and utterly foolish to go up against. And seeing as the vast majority of them are never seen by anyone its hardly a cermonial thing or for show now is it.

I'm not saying they would win against the Grey Knights, i don't think anyone can answer that question with any certainty. But people who seem to think the Custdoes are inferior and more ceremonial than anything are very much mistaken.


----------



## cragnes417

Huh I wonder if the custodes trained the grey knights during the early years of the of there founding. It feel like there combat is similer in way


----------



## Warsmith40

Angel of Blood said:


> Added to the fact that we don't even know how many there are, other than possibly over 10,000, which is a fucking lot. I'm pretty damn certain they are still as skilled as ever, just as deadly, and utterly foolish to go up against. And seeing as the vast majority of them are never seen by anyone its hardly a cermonial thing or for show now is it.
> 
> I'm not saying they would win against the Grey Knights, i don't think anyone can answer that question with any certainty. But people who seem to think the Custdoes are inferior and more ceremonial than anything are very much mistaken.


Well, in a comparison there are likely over 10,000 Custodes and just above 3,000 Grey Knights (most of which are spread thin across the Imperium). Whether or not GK are stronger, they'd certainly be outmanned in an all out fight.

I also agree that the Custodes are far more than ceremonial. The fact that they would challenge Primarchs before allowing them in the Emperor's presence, such as in _A Thousand Sons_, speaks for itself: they don't hesitate to stand against the mightiest heroes of mankind should they prove a threat. While likely not individually as strong as a primarch (just as there are only 10,000 Custodes for all of the Astartes, there are only _20_ primarchs), groups of them would stand a good chance until the Emperor ended the issue.

However, Grey Knights are incredibly powerful as well. Even though it took the sacrifice of his life and those of several other Terminators, Grey Knight Captain Aurellian successfully banished the daemon primarch Angron (Codicium Imperialis: The First War for Armageddon; WD 279 as well as http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis(Armageddon).pdf). That in an of itself proves the sheer tenacity of the GK.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Warsmith40 said:


> While likely not individually as strong as a primarch


i think it's safe to say that not even Constantin Valdor is anywhere close to a primarch's power level


----------



## rafunparked

Actually its stated in multiple sources that Valdor only recieved respect from Russ when he beat Horus in a bout. Granted that is the LEADER of the custodes fighting a very powerful but still not the most powerful primarch combatant you have to give them credit. The custodes have some big cajone's and can back it up. You dont talk smack to a primarch for no reason. 

IMO the custodes still win with the joker going to as others have said the psycher question mark. I would have been a little more on the fence until I read The First Heretic. As others have said Argel Tal (a leader and very capable fighter) gets soundly beaten every time against the custodian and only offers any form of challenge once he is possessed. But even then it just prolonged his defeat.


----------



## CJay

My last reply is I dont think the Grey Knights are that fuckin amazing as Monty makes them out to be. 

I like to point out the Custodes don't have a lot of information, what people are basing this stuff on is fluff from the novels and not codexs etc. Lets face it, stuff from the fluff in the BL novels can be eyebrow raising. Lets flip the coin, Alaric (or however you spell it) got his shit wrecked by a warp enhanced human. Not space marine, human. Lets also look at the UM novel Killing grounds were the Grey Knight got his shit wrecked by a giant flesh monster. I dont think a Grey Knight would lose to one of those things personally. Also they were not masters of psychic powers at all in the novels, they just seemed to have it, not complete utter dominance of psychic might.

I still stick with that Custodes would win.


----------



## MontytheMighty

rafunparked said:


> Actually its stated in multiple sources that Valdor only recieved respect from Russ when he beat Horus in a bout. Granted that is the LEADER of the custodes fighting a very powerful but still not the most powerful primarch combatant you have to give them credit.


thanks for pointing that out, but we also don't have any information (or do we?) on just how often he beat Horus or how many times he fought Horus before...for instance Loken beat Lucius once, but it was clear that Lucius was a much better fighter 

but yes, beating Horus once in sparring, regardless of the circumstances, still is very impressive though in a battle to the death I think Horus would win easily



CJay said:


> My last reply is I dont think the Grey Knights are that fuckin amazing as Monty makes them out to be.


the fluff about the grey knights varies, whereas the fluff for custodes is more consistent (they range from being slightly better than space marines to being considerably superior) but I think this has a lot to do with the fact that custodes simply aren't written about much

I'll stick to my main argument that while the custodes are physically superior, the grey knights' psychic advantage more than makes up that...to use a crude analogy, the custodes are the best warriors, but the grey knights are a close second plus they're powerful "mages" too

mind you I'm not saying the average grey knight would smash the average custode, but I think the GK would have the advantage


----------



## rafunparked

> thanks for pointing that out, but we also don't have any information (or do we?) on just how often he beat Horus or how many times he fought Horus before...for instance Loken beat Lucius once, but it was clear that Lucius was a much better fighter
> 
> but yes, beating Horus once in sparring, regardless of the circumstances, still is very impressive though in a battle to the death I think Horus would win easily


True but how many people can say they beat a primarch in combat even if it was 1 time out of a 100? Either way thats still pretty damn amazing. Plus you know you have to be pretty tough to be an outsider and earn russ's respect. 

And the part about loken and lucius is kind of void since the whole point of the fight was to show that Lucius might be the best SWORDSMAN but he wasnt the best fighter. He had alot to more to learn.


----------



## MontytheMighty

rafunparked said:


> And the part about loken and lucius is kind of void since the whole point of the fight was to show that Lucius might be the best SWORDSMAN but he wasnt the best fighter. He had alot to more to learn.


I wouldn't say it's simply void 

my take on it was that it showed that even though Lucius was supremely skilled, he took Loken for granted and was over-confident, it also shows a less skilled fighter can surprise a more skilled and over-confident fighter, I think all this may also have applied to the bout between Horus and Valdor


----------



## rafunparked

MontytheMighty said:


> I wouldn't say it's simply void
> 
> my take on it was that it showed that even though Lucius was supremely skilled, he took Loken for granted and was over-confident, it also shows a less skilled fighter can surprise a more skilled and over-confident fighter, I think all this may also have applied to the bout between Horus and Valdor


Well that could also be true I see your point. But then you could also question how much of the valdor vs horus fight was skill or a primarch's ridiculously enhanced, unique body. That could also be said of valdor but we know that a custodes is still vastly different than a primarch so valdor's skills must be immense to hang in there, especially to win.


----------



## MontytheMighty

rafunparked said:


> Well that could also be true I see your point. But then you could also question how much of the valdor vs horus fight was skill or a primarch's ridiculously enhanced, unique body. That could also be said of valdor but we know that a custodes is still vastly different than a primarch so valdor's skills must be immense to hang in there, especially to win.


I do get the sense though that Valdor would not be over-confident with a primarch, he treats Dorn with deference, calling him lord, while Dorn behaves rather arrogantly to him
In Nemesis Valdor also considered sparring with Dorn and then thought better of it (I think the quote representing Valdor's thinking went something like "one does not challenge a primarch unless prepared to go all the way with such a being")

To me Valdor viewed the primarchs as superiors (I guess you could argue equals) but the primarchs (well, at least Dorn) talked down to him 

BTW, you wouldn't happen to know the title of the fluff containing the "custode is to a marine as a marine is to a guardsman" analogy would you?


----------



## sethgabriel1990

i would say, if the grey knight had a nemesis force hammer, they'd win.


----------



## locustgate

I always viewed the custodians as somewhere in between a marine and primarch.


----------



## rafunparked

MontytheMighty said:


> I do get the sense though that Valdor would not be over-confident with a primarch, he treats Dorn with deference, calling him lord, while Dorn behaves rather arrogantly to him
> In Nemesis Valdor also considered sparring with Dorn and then thought better of it (I think the quote representing Valdor's thinking went something like "one does not challenge a primarch unless prepared to go all the way with such a being")
> 
> To me Valdor viewed the primarchs as superiors (I guess you could argue equals) but the primarchs (well, at least Dorn) talked down to him
> 
> BTW, you wouldn't happen to know the title of the fluff containing the "custode is to a marine as a marine is to a guardsman" analogy would you?


I honestly cant think of the place where that is said. Maybe its in Collected visions?I would check mine but away at college right now.

I understand what you mean by showing respect but I also believe that since all your examples of Valdor showing some fealty to Dorn is because well its Dorn. You have to remember that once the Imperial Fists were brought back to terra they in effect became the worldwide security. And its basicly been stated that the emperor put dorn in charge of the planet while hes tinkerin in the basement. Malcador was handling politics and assassin kill teams.lol

So what Im getting to is it seems more like being nice to your boss and having respect than being worried or starting a pointless argument. I think a custodes views each primarch differently and isn't as awe struck by them as everyone else is. You have to remember who there around all day, the big E.


----------



## Angel of Blood

sethgabriel1990 said:


> i would say, if the grey knight had a nemesis force hammer, they'd win.


Well a hammer is always going to be one of the slowest weapons you can use. Where as a Guardian Spear is very fast and the Custodes are very agile when using it. So i wouldn't say hammer equals win at all really.


As for Valdor and the Custdoes, i don't think they view the Primarchs as superiors at all. They call them Lord as an honorific and treat them with respect as they are the Emperors sons, but ultimately it is only the Emperor (and likely Malcador) that they answer to or consider their superiors. On almost every instance of seeing the Custodes meet a Primarch they have talked to them on a completely equal standing in pretty much every regard and have no hesitation to stand in their way, threaten them to a degree or show any sign of faltering. Cases in point:

Valdor - Talks to Dorn, treats Dorn and thinks about Dorn as pretty much an equal. When he speaks to Russ he shows similar signs of indifference, even nigh on ordering him to accompany him to one side. 
Amon and Haedo - Both show absoloutely no sign of faltering or servitude to Dorn or Magnus when they meet them both. Both times going so far as to either threaten them or refuse them entry to a location until the Primarchs have submitted themselves to them.
Amon - Valdor even says to Russ himself not to goad Amon in an almost warning manner, which leads me to wonder just how good Amon is at fighting(we already know from blood games he is one of the best)


----------



## sethgabriel1990

i was just kidding angel of blood  i like to think that they are more equals than anything, i always thought that the grey knights were 'above' normal astartes.


----------



## MontytheMighty

As there really is a lack of fluff in this area, the following is of course my own take on things 

I think any Primarch, especially the ones renowned as good fighters (i.e. Russ, Angron, Sanguinius etc.), would slaughter any custodes (including Valdor) in a lethal fight (not sparring in a cage, but actual combat to the death) 

it has been established that the custodes are much less in awe of the Primarchs than the astartes are...this can be explained in two ways 

1) the custodes are close to the primarchs in power level

2) though far less powerful than primarchs and only barely superior to space marines (see Tales of Heresy), the custodes will challenge even primarchs to fulfill their duty as the Emperor's bodyguards 

I think explanation 2 makes more sense 
as we know, unlike the astartes who idolize their primarch leaders, the custodes are loyal only to the Emperor himself
thus it is easy to see why the custodes don't slip into fanboy mode when confronted by a primarch 

indeed, too much respect for the primarchs would hinder the custodes in the performance of their duties, after all if anyone could hurt the Emperor, it would be a primarch

case in point: when Horus was battling the Emperor, the lone custodian did not hesitate to take on Horus, just like I'm sure Amon would not hesitate to take on Russ if Russ threatened the Emperor

I think it has less to do with relative power levels, and more to do with the role and attitude of the custodes: they'll challenge anyone/anything if necessary to fulfill their duty of safeguarding the Emperor


----------



## rafunparked

_MontytheMighty _ we pretty much agree there. I would also like to know more on the custodes views of each primarch as was hinted in The First Heretic where the custodes clearly show contempt for Lorgar.


----------



## MontytheMighty

rafunparked said:


> _MontytheMighty _ we pretty much agree there. I would also like to know more on the custodes views of each primarch as was hinted in The First Heretic where the custodes clearly show contempt for Lorgar.


yeah, I think the custodes need their own Heresy book, it would be pretty awesome 
since they were made earlier than the astartes, the book could be set during the Unification Wars, and the story would still feel like 40k because the custodes would sorta play the role of space marines

I also hope the HH series has more battles between the astartes and custodes in the future, I just hope the traitor legions aren't treated as expendable swarms by the authors


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As well as _Tales of Heresy_ (notably _Blood Games_), _The First Heretic_ gave us a good portrayal of Custodes in comparison to Astartes. They were very _'individual'_ compared to the bonds of brotherhood found among the Astartes Legions. They did not fight as a coherent unit as effectively as the Astartes, but individually their training, equipment and refined creation process resulted in them being superior on an individual basis. How significant this difference was I imagined varied between individuals, but it wasn't _that_ significant.
> 
> As for comparing the Adeptus Custodes to the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are clearly superior.


I think it was Abnett who came up with the idea that the Custodes barely are better than Astartes physically no? I've never liked that notion especially since it just made sense that something rarer and closer to the Emperor in terms of purity would be superior (according to Erebus).

I've become a big fan of ADB after reading Helsreach and The First Heretic and I like his view of the Custodes and how seemingly unstoppable they are in comparison with Astartes. 

Again, Erebus himself mentioned that they are purer and I'm just guessing ADB didn't want to duke it off with Abnett and kept Erebus from _directly _stating that the Custodes are superior to the Astartes physically and so just hinted at it through their purer bloodline to the Emperor.

Also bringing up what you said, I'm curious as to why you think the Grey Knights are superior to the Custodes?


----------



## MontytheMighty

how was Helsreach btw?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

MontytheMighty said:


> how was Helsreach btw?


Bah I thought the updated post was from CoTe lol.

Simply put, amazing.

Hands down the best WH40k novel I've read to date, and in my opinion even trumps Legion, my formerly favorite WH40k novel which even focuses around my all time favorite Chapter.

It has action, it has depth and is just superbly written.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Bah I thought the updated post was from CoTe lol.


I made my personal views and interpretations clear earlier in the thread.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I made my personal views and interpretations clear earlier in the thread.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So not only are the Grey Knights each individually *very* psychically potent (which in itself would probably allow them to trump a custodes), but also extremley well versed in physical combat.


I would think that the Emperor sending the Custodes into the tear in the webway against psychically attuned daemons would indicate that they have some means of dealing with psychic enemies.

I am aware that the emperor sent sisters of silence alongside them but I'm sure there were certain instances where they were fighting alone against wave after wave of physic daemons.


----------



## gothik

think it was the last church (if that was the tale) where the emperor disguises himself to enter a theologiacal debate with a last remaining preist of the old religion (mcneil i am in awe) so his thunder warriors...were they custodes or early marines? 
anyway in answer to the OP i think the custodes still train and still do the blood games as they never know if abbaddon will ever make it to terra and his 13th crusade seemed to get pretty close for anyones liking.
however the grey knights i feel are more disciplined then even the staunchest marine, thier psyker powers being part of that disciplin and the fact they are warded in thier skinds as well as thier armour...if it came to a throw down...draw imho


----------



## Chompy Bits

This to me is actually a really tough question as, as we have seen, skill levels can vary massively even amongst just astartes. Just look at the difference in swordsmanship between Lucius & Loken. That being said, I think that one-on-one the average custodes would take the average grey knight. If it were higher ranks, such as one of the high ranked custodians versus a grand master, then I think it would be a lot closer but tipped in the grey knight's favour. I say this because the grand masters are not only some of the best warriors among the grey knights, but also their most powerful psykers and would be able to get the biggest advantage out of their psychic gifts. Now if it was squad vs squad, then I think the grey knights would win.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> I would think that the Emperor sending the Custodes into the tear in the webway against psychically attuned daemons would indicate that they have some means of dealing with psychic enemies.
> 
> I am aware that the emperor sent sisters of silence alongside them but I'm sure there were certain instances where they were fighting alone against wave after wave of physic daemons.


sure, the Emperor sent custodes and silent sisters to fight daemons...but in my humble opinion, that fact alone doesn't indicate that the custodes had psykers among them
on the contrary, the fact that sisters of silence fought alongside the custodes tends to indicate the _opposite_, as silent sisters make psykers very uncomfortable to say the least 

while being psychic is a huge bonus when combating daemons, non-psykers such as custodes or standard marines are still able to defeat daemons, they're just not nearly as effective as psykers

of course, nothing is written in stone in this area 
perhaps one day a psyker custodes will crop up somewhere in the fluff or maybe even a pariah custodes, who knows


----------



## admiraldick

Baron Spikey said:


> Custodes armour was, if anything, better than Power Armour- it gave the same level of protection but wasn't as bulky or constraining.


not that i doubt you (everyone seems to pretty much be in agreement over the subject), but where does this background come from? which book is it in? and are there any images of them with no armour? because the pictures i can find of them post-Heresy show them in full armour.



Baron Spikey said:


> a lot of their rhino transports are skimmers instead of tracked vehicles.


i know that there was a single Rhino skimmer developed (The Emporer's Gift), but it was my understanding that that was a prototype and was never reproduced. do you have a source that says otherwise?


----------



## Chompy Bits

admiraldick said:


> not that i doubt you (everyone seems to pretty much be in agreement over the subject), but where does this background come from? which book is it in? and are there any images of them with no armour? because the pictures i can find of them post-Heresy show them in full armour.


Well, in _The First Heretic_ it is mentioned that custodes armour isn't mass produced but rather tailor made for each individual custodian and is thus of higher quality than the mass produced astartes armour. Also, even if you don't take the armour into account, modern custodian helmets contain advanced technology that also supposedly grants them a great deal of protection though, to be honest, my knowledge about the specifics surrounding this is fairly lacking.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I would think that the Emperor sending the Custodes into the tear in the webway against psychically attuned daemons would indicate that they have some means of dealing with psychic enemies.
> 
> I am aware that the emperor sent sisters of silence alongside them but I'm sure there were certain instances where they were fighting alone against wave after wave of physic daemons.


The Custodian Guard being utilised in the Secret War cannot be used as evidence to suggest they are potent psychic/daemon killers. 

The reason the Custodians were present during the Secret War was because the Emperor was in danger (their primary purpose being to protect the Emperor's person), they were the only force capable of stemming the tide of daemons on Terra at the time (whether or not Dorn and his Imperial Fists had arrived back on Terra by this point is not perfectly clear), and likely one of the only millitary forces trusted within the confines of the Imperial Dungeon. They were probably already stationed in the Imperial Dungeon, not only to protect the Emperor, but because they (and the Sisterhood) were probably the ones tasked with initially securing the immediate sections of the Eldar webway that the Imperial-built bridge led into. It had nothing to do with them being inherently effective against psykers and/or daemons.

As another example, just look at the Burning of Prospero. Initially (_CV_) the Custodians were present as proof of the Emperor's patronage, and the Sisterhood to deal with the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Custodian Guard were effective anti-psykers.



gothik said:


> think it was the last church (if that was the tale) where the emperor disguises himself to enter a theologiacal debate with a last remaining preist of the old religion (mcneil i am in awe) so his thunder warriors...were they custodes or early marines?


IIRC they were the thunder warriors - proto-Astartes used in the Unification Wars, most of which eventually fell to insanity.


----------



## Djinn24

I am not a fluff person but as I read this something popped in my head. If the Legions where made in their Primarchs image, what is to say that the Custodians where not made in the emperors. That being said and the fact that it is also said that the GKs are of the E's geneseed, does it not stand to reason that the GKs are the Custodians second founding, or hell even custodians that show physic ability.

Just an outsiders point of view.


----------



## comrade

Custodes do not have a geneseed and are created by a different process then Astartes, and the geneseed was created as one way to make Astartes faster and quicker rather then the long tedious process of creating a Custode guard

Custodes have no second founding, they are supposedly number 10,000+ and some say they are truly immortal unlike space marines


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

MontytheMighty said:


> for example, Gaunt's Ghosts take down a bunch of chaos marines with more ease than you'd expect, bad guys just usually tend to die a lot more


I had exactly the same conversation with a workshop lackey. I wouldn't say that Abnett ever presents as being easy...

The times I can remember Gaunt and the Ghosts taking on CSM they only ever won by luck and skill.

SPOILER ALERT!
In the First book they kill a CSM as he comes down an elevator shaft with a las hot shot to the face from a non-standard issuse lasgun, which seems fair enough.

In the second book a whole band of Ghosts sneak out of forests, counter ambush some CSM's already engaged with a line of stationery artillery and kill them, I can't remember there being more than five marines and by this point I think the Ghosts were about 2k. Again, fairly phesible.

The only other time I can remember is on Gereon where Gaunt goes one on one with a Marine, Gaunt is a skilled swordsman and has the power sword of Heironimo Sondar and wins by absolutely fluke (if memory serves me correctly.)

In reality Guard vs CSM always ends badly for Guard, but if there are enough of them, have the right weapons and can attack in a situation where they have the upper hand they CAN win. You also have to remember that the books don't always reflect the games, and most importantly the Ghosts aren't your average Guard unit.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Custodian Guard being utilised in the Secret War cannot be used as evidence to suggest they are potent psychic/daemon killers.
> 
> The reason the Custodians were present during the Secret War was because the Emperor was in danger (their primary purpose being to protect the Emperor's person)...


we're pretty much in agreement

1) the fact that the custodes could stand being around the sisters tends to show that the custodes were non-psykers

2) also, there is no mention in the fluff whatsoever that anti-psykers/blanks existed among the custodes
there is no mention or suggestion anywhere that psykers got uncomfortable around the custodes
Malcador was fine around them, the Emperor was fine around them (although blanks would probably only annoy the Emperor thanks to his stratospheric power)

as I mentioned earlier, sufficiently powerful non-psykers can take down daemons and psykers, I don't see how the custodes' involvement in the Secret War or Prospero constitutes evidence that they were anti-psykers or psykers.


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

admiraldick said:


> i know that there was a single Rhino skimmer developed (The Emporer's Gift), but it was my understanding that that was a prototype and was never reproduced. do you have a source that says otherwise?


I can answer to this one, there were appearently more then one skimmer Rhino. On page # 350 of The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions in the picture "Warp Conduit * Imperial Webway * Dave Millgate" it shows two skimmers on a slightly different design, then the one in "The Emporer's Gift", but still shaped like a Rhinos entering the gateway behind the Golden Throne. That brings the count up to three. Wether that means they could, & did, produce more is prorbably up to personal interpretion.


----------



## Engindeer

comrade said:


> Custodes have no second founding... ....and *some* say they are truly immortal unlike space marines


this without mentioning a source, is worthless to me


----------



## comrade

Engindeer said:


> this without mentioning a source, is worthless to me


your post is worthless to me and I could care less what you want because I don't know who you are.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Custodian Guard being utilised in the Secret War cannot be used as evidence to suggest they are potent psychic/daemon killers.
> 
> The reason the Custodians were present during the Secret War was because the Emperor was in danger (their primary purpose being to protect the Emperor's person), they were the only force capable of stemming the tide of daemons on Terra at the time (whether or not Dorn and his Imperial Fists had arrived back on Terra by this point is not perfectly clear), and likely one of the only millitary forces trusted within the confines of the Imperial Dungeon. They were probably already stationed in the Imperial Dungeon, not only to protect the Emperor, but because they (and the Sisterhood) were probably the ones tasked with initially securing the immediate sections of the Eldar webway that the Imperial-built bridge led into. It had nothing to do with them being inherently effective against psykers and/or daemons.


I agree but then again if they weren't so effective, then surely the neverending tide of daemons would have wiped them out easily but they persisted and pushed back the tide. But I can see your point.



Child-of-the-Emperor;849374As another example said:


> CV[/I]) the Custodians were present as proof of the Emperor's patronage, and the Sisterhood to deal with the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Custodian Guard were effective anti-psykers.


To be honest I disliked that part where Arhiman (or whoever it was) flung them into a wall (if my memory serves correctly). I was waiting to see them rise out of the heap of rubble but apparently that was the end of them which totally contradicts how much physical punishment they can withstand and in my opinion being flung into a wall isn't anything serious to a fully armored Custodes sitting atop their armored bike.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> IIRC they were the thunder warriors - proto-Astartes used in the Unification Wars, most of which eventually fell to insanity.


Never came across that tidbit of fluff. What caused that to occur? And I thought the Proto-Astartes or at least some of them became Custodes no?


----------



## MontytheMighty

the term anti-psyker...are you guys talking about pariahs?
cuz if you are, it wouldn't make much sense for the Emperor to be surrounded by a bunch of pariahs 
also Malcador never seems uncomfortable around the custodes...

or by anti-psykers do you mean something else?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I don't know who you're referring to but I'm quite certain paraiahs would have no effect on someone as powerful as the Emperor.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't know who you're referring to but I'm quite certain paraiahs would have no effect on someone as powerful as the Emperor.


bear in mind that in Nemesis, the plot against the Emperor did involve a pariah
of course, there were also special circumstances that leave much to speculation


the thought did cross my mind


MontytheMighty said:


> Malcador was fine around them, the Emperor was fine around them (although blanks would probably only annoy the Emperor thanks to his stratospheric power)


I doubt blood would have been gushing from the Emp's ears...I'm thinking more along the lines of a highly distracting migraine, but yes, the big E is a special case 

*Malcador* on the other hand was frequently in the immediate presence of the custodes, including Constantin Valdor, and no mention was made of any symptoms he should have suffered from being around a bunch of blanks, if indeed they were...as I recall from First Heretic, he is not immune to the effects of psychic dampening


----------



## Malus Darkblade

MontytheMighty said:


> bear in mind that in Nemesis, the plot against the Emperor did involve a pariah
> of course, there were also special circumstances that leave much to speculation
> 
> 
> the thought did cross my mind
> 
> 
> I doubt blood would have been gushing from the Emp's ears...I'm thinking more along the lines of a highly distracting migraine, but yes, the big E is a special case


That storyline was dumb, a crazy pariah who can kill the most powerful psyker humanity (and perhaps the universe) has ever seen by 'absorbing' his power and blasting back or something silly like that I forget. 

Yeah don't think so.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> That storyline was dumb, a crazy pariah who can kill the most powerful psyker humanity (and perhaps the universe) has ever seen by 'absorbing' his power and blasting back or something silly like that I forget.
> 
> Yeah don't think so.


do you have an explanation for how Malcador gets along with the custodes without bleeding from his eyes and ears, or at the very least, suffering a splitting headache? haven't been dodging the question have you?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't know who you're referring to but I'm quite certain paraiahs would have no effect on someone as powerful as the Emperor.





MontytheMighty said:


> bear in mind that in Nemesis, the plot against the Emperor did involve a pariah
> of course, there were also special circumstances that leave much to speculation


_Spear_ wasn't a normal pariah though, he was very much unique. Could he have destroyed the Emperor? Possibly. 

Could a normal blank? I would say no. The Emperor is simply too powerful. Take into account that he hung around with the Sisters of Silence on occasion and their presence seemingly had no effect. 



MontytheMighty said:


> *Malcador* on the other hand was frequently in the immediate presence of the custodes, including Constantin Valdor, and no mention was made of any symptoms he should have suffered from being around a bunch of blanks, if indeed they were...as I recall from First Heretic, he is not immune to the effects of psychic dampening


Can we just nip that in the bud now? The Custodians were not blanks, nor were they a force maintained for challenging daemons or psykers. They were highly trained, highly equipped, and utterly loyal bodyguards, not much else.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> MontytheMighty said:
> 
> 
> 
> bear in mind that in Nemesis, the plot against the Emperor did involve a pariah
> of course, there were also special circumstances that leave much to speculation
> 
> 
> 
> _Spear_ wasn't a normal pariah though, he was very much unique. Could he have destroyed the Emperor? Possibly.
> Could a normal blank? I would say no.
Click to expand...

hence my mention of the special circumstances...I do think it is an indication, though not conclusive, that perhaps a potent enough blank, or a large enough number of blanks could hurt the Emperor 
once again, we're in speculation land...especially given the daemonic nature of Spear 



> The Emperor is simply too powerful. Take into account that he hung around with the Sisters of Silence on occasion and their presence seemingly had no effect.


we're not in disagreement, I doubt an individual blank would have much of an effect on the Emperor
I can see the emperor shrugging off meetings with the Sisters every now and then...however, hundreds (sometimes maybe thousands) of blank custodes following him into battle, guarding his person 24 hours a day, 7 days a week
... doesn't make much sense does it? you'd think it would at least be a constant headache, no? 

I can't think why the Emperor would want to have a legion of blanks as his bodyguards, he's more than powerful enough to deal with any psychic/warp-based attacks on him by himself, right?
...the custodes were more likely meant to deal with possible assassination attempts and the dangers of battle (when the Emperor still fought). 



> Can we just nip that in the bud now? The Custodians were not blanks, nor were they a force maintained for challenging daemons or psykers. They were highly trained, highly equipped, and utterly loyal bodyguards, not much else.


I'm squarely in the bud-nipping camp with you, but since Malus was implying the custodes were pariahs, I wanted to hear his explanation for Malcador's immunity to them...I think I'm in for a long wait


----------



## Engindeer

Apparantly there's a lot of people who believe fluff to be really one-dimensional.

How would you compare the adeptus custodes with the grey knights, even if they are on even terms? Both forces are specifically designed to fullfil entirely different roles.

Sure the grey knights would be better at fighting daemons in the webway, but could they ensure the safety of The Emperor? Sure the custodes could protect The Emperor, but could they deal with a daemonic incursion as efficient as the grey knights would? 

The answer to both questions is probably no!


----------



## IPlayTau

*Missing At Weapon Skill 6*

All of you appear to be missing the Point of the Custodes; they are the Emperors Sons.
Not just his spiritual sons, but as in his acctual clones. They are a Full legion. They are a ligitimate Authority entrusted with the body of the Emperor, Legaly empowered to use all force to Protect it.

How Many Space Marine chapters, (Please lets leave Matt Ward out of this, What that man did to the Fluff was Unforgiveable) would not answer a call for help from the Empy himself?

The key ingreadiant in psycannon bolts acctually is a byproduct of the golden throne. sick yes but the Custodies have an almost unlimited suplly.

Also, Fluff as last I heard it is that the leader of the Custodes was a Psyker on par with the Emperor. That makes him a Special Alpha Plus.
Just on a side note; if the Emperor was the strongest Psyker ever, why are his primary wives Untochables?

As for 'Not Live combat trained' the Emperor Is a beacon in the Warp strong enough to be seen most of the Galaxy away, this means Deamon encursion who fights the Deamons off holy Terra? These guys.

Now That I have All this in the Air 

The Grey Knights, Given Every Advantage of Fluff are a small chapter constantly on the recieving end of the Deamon beat stick, on a small moon orbiting a world within Missile range of Terra. 
They Are Less than 1000 men, & they are generally not well thought of by anyone But the Smurfs. There Main Advantage as it has been repeatedly stated is Psykic tallent and Deamon Bane.
The Custodes are a Legion directly decendant of the Greatest Warrior and Psyker in History; live on the Holiest Most well guarded rock in the Galaxy and can call on all but the most badly beaten or heretical for help. Also they could just shut the doors and let the Grey Knights Slaughter Deamons untill thier suplies, Armour, physical and psykic power ran out.

In The Grim Darkness Of The Forty First Millenium- The Next Biggest Stick Is So Big Its Not Worth Trying For A Comparison.


----------



## theurge33

If they never fell, the Thousand sons trump both 

I seem to remember them wrecking many Custodes in a Thousand Sons.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Some people needs to brush up on their fluffology.

The Astronomican was originally projected entirely by the Emperor. But due to his attention being diverted by the webway conflict, human psykers was bought in as a stopgap measure as it was fluctuating. Freeing the Emperor to just direct the Astronomican. But as he ended up on the throne, the mortal fuel requirement for it became permanent.


The sisters of silence is a martial order of blanks, tasked with securing psykers to be harvested by the imperium, as well dealing with renegade psyskers in the Crusade Era. They are not his wiwes, nor in any way associated with the future Brides of the Emperor/Adepta Sororitas that came to be during the Age of Apostasy.


----------

