# Why can't females ever become SM's?



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I know that this is probably an old question and it probably is not my place to question established but why exactly can't females become SM's?

I know the traditional response is because the codex says so but are there any other reasons apart from that because I find that complete BS. I will place my argument down later but it would be interesting to find out if any other reasons exist first.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Cause their body ain`t the same as a males? The implants would not work/accept it? 

Thats the impression I have gotten.


----------



## Zerodyme619 (Jul 1, 2011)

One of the main reasons would be, that the Gene-Seed is based on the Primarchs, who were all males. Females would be incompatible with the genetic material and the organs.

That and the adeptus mechanicus doesn't wnat to build power armor for women =P


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Gene-seed zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.

However I'm sure with a little engineering it would be possible to tweak the necessary genetic codes to key them to female anatomy and hormones.

Other than that, it's seemingly just fluff and tradition. 

There's probably a logistics reason as well - Rhino's need to be parked parallel to fit them into cargoholds and drop-ships. If we had female marines driving them they'd never fit into a cruiser properly.

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Zerodyme619 said:


> That and the adeptus mechanicus doesn't wnat to build power armor for women =P


Um, ignorance prevails? Ever heard of the Adepta Sororitas?


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

But the thing is just that it can't just be about male hormones since the bodies of every male and female produces all hormones possible by humans (This means that men in fact do produce oestrogen and females do produce testosterone.

In fact if you look at the genetic structure of both sexes then you will notice the Y chromosome is in fact half the size of the X chromosome. This means that in essence that women are in fact more genetically perfect as human beings than men.

In short I do agree that maybe the process can be tweaked slightly to produce more testosterone in women so it could be compatible.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Their boobs would cause interface issues with the black carapace duh..


----------



## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

All of the above plus more IMHO.
I'm also saying this as a woman...and I'm not saying ALL women are, but there are a lot of factors.
1. Mixing women and men in a squad/army etc. usually doesn't end well.
2. Women CAN be more backstabby and less loyal because of minor things.
3. Would you be genetically engineering out boobs and uteruses??? Because they are annoying as hell to bring into battle. Imagine a hot-blooded woman Abbadon...PMS-ing...not a good image comes to mind.

I understand they're SM and whatnot and can be genetically engineered to not do some of these things, but in all reality, why would you need to put MORE money into researching this when you already have viable specimens???

edit: Hahahahaha D-A-C!!!!~ Sadly, even as a woman, I would have to agree with you. >.<


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I thinks its because all the implants and training would actually change them to the point of not being female anymore and I always got the impression that women would be quietly encouraged to have lots of children in between picking up their lasguns. 

Also, it just makes sense that only men would be taken. Men are stronger and bigger than women (its true!!!) and women can always join the guard or sororitas if they want to fight. So its not as if women are being denied their 'rights' and 'freedoms of choice'.

Finally, because of their, ahem, 'cycles' they would be easy pickings for the Blood God (who doesn't care how the blood is spilt!!!!) and the Astartes have enough bother with Chapters turning to Chaos. Whereas Sororitas are made to be devout in faith and are issued with wads of cotton as standard issue.

Finally, finally, everyone know that women can't drive or map read properly for us males to understand (decreasing their usefulness) and are prone to pouting, emotional outbursts and irrational lines of thought that no amount of pyscho-indoctranation could overcome.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Most likely the original game designers got nose bleeds whenever they thought of genetically enhanced amazon sized boobage so they declared it against the rules.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Honestly I was in the miltary for years and I heard this fact of women not being physically equal to males However the only person to kill a primarch other than another primarch or chaos servant was in fact a chick M'shen. I honestly think it would just be weird in the story. All that other crap about genetics is bullshit. If we were talking about some regular miltary fiction than yeah I can see where that would apply.This is however 40k. A callidus assassin can kill almost anything and the the Soritas are extremely dangerous women to underestimate. There are female inquisitors,assassins,guardsmen,psykers etc. I don't know if any story I've read would have been better if there were females space marines involved.

I think actually the Soritas is suposed to be the closest they come to that.


----------



## Zerodyme619 (Jul 1, 2011)

Stephen_Newman said:


> But the thing is just that it can't just be about male hormones since the bodies of every male and female produces all hormones possible by humans (This means that men in fact do produce oestrogen and females do produce testosterone.
> 
> In fact if you look at the genetic structure of both sexes then you will notice the Y chromosome is in fact half the size of the X chromosome. This means that in essence that women are in fact more genetically perfect as human beings than men.
> 
> In short I do agree that maybe the process can be tweaked slightly to produce more testosterone in women so it could be compatible.


Sorry, but as a biologist myself, I have to tell you, that you are seeing it wayyyy to simple. It is true, that the Y chromosome is smaller. But that doesn't change the fact, that it encodes entirely different Information. You can't make a male, by cutting of a bit of the X-Chromosome 
Furthermore, it is not just about hormon-levels. The extra Organs have to interact deeply with the physiology of the Aspirant. And although this isn't explicitly mentioned in a Codex (As far as I know), there is no way these complex Implants would work without Gene-Targeting processes and Gene-therapy. And these Processes are highly gender-specific.
To put it simple: To make the Organs work, you have to make a Genetic alignment/adjustment, and that will simply never work across differnet Genders. Trust the crazy scientist 

@Doelago I was joking about the Armor of course.

But in theory: Could you Imagine what a woman would look like, after becomming a full SpaceMarine? Could you even tell the difference between male and female?


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> 1. Mixing women and men in a squad/army etc. usually doesn't end well.
> 2. Women CAN be more backstabby and less loyal because of minor things.
> 3. Would you be genetically engineering out boobs and uteruses??? Because they are annoying as hell to bring into battle. Imagine a hot-blooded woman Abbadon...PMS-ing...not a good image comes to mind.


1. These are Spess Mahreens we're talking about here! Not a bunch of horny Guardsmen! :shout:
2. Woman tend to turn to Chaos in order to get back at the Loyalist men for leaving the toilet seat up.
3. Of course I would be genetically engineering boobies and utterusses!!! What real man wouldn't?:victory:

btw, this was not an attack, just my daily dose of random trolling :biggrin:


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The official in fluff answer is that the implants, gene seed, zyogtes etc are all keyed to male tissues and chemicals etc. Now yes obviously we know that males and females actually have the same chemicals and stuff just in different amounts which could easily be adjusted. But the influff answer is no their aren't any and their can't be because of the implantation process. 

Also it's kinda hard to promote themes of 'brotherhood' and 'warrior monks' when you've have female members (from a thematic perspective). 

That said why would there need to be any female space marines? I can't see the point of having them. It's not like the Chapters are desperately short of recruits and if they'd take women they'd suddenly have so many more Astartes. You wouldn't suddenly be able to breed Space Marines either. You can't even say you want it for cosmetic reasons, after all the chemical therapy, implants etc i doubt a female space marine would look much like any woman. Additionally their power armour would not have 'boobs' on it, it would be the same as the rest. 

So i just can't see why anyone would feel the need for there to be any female space marines.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, the geneseed doesn't take in women, it is engineered for males and males only. Why? The fluff lords say it be so.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Let me ask this question. Why cant there be Male Sisters of Battle? Surly there must be Metro/**** Sexual in the Emperium?

Thats how this question is sounds to me. It just is.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I second Rems' statement regarding need.

In the real world, and real militaries, it's conceivable that a woman could match some of her male peers in some areas in terms of physical strength, endurance, etc. Astartes don't recruit from the average or above average, though. They recruit from the top-end physical spectrum of human males. Top-end female humans do not compare to top-end male humans either in speed, strength, or endurance. Period. Every single year, we have our top athletes competing in various sports. And every single year, the fastest man is faster than the fastest woman. The strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman. The best triathlete, marathon runner, bicyclist, boxer, whatever, is a man.

Even if zygotes could be keyed to female hormones, the Emperor would thus not have wasted his time with female Space Marines. He wasn't about equal opportunity. He was about conquering the Galaxy and finding a way to protect the species from a parallel dimension ruled by massive psychic intelligences that fed on every negative thing we psychically projected.

That's a shitty way to put things, but the Emperor often had a shitty way of going about things... :wink:

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> Let me ask this question. Why cant there be Male Sisters of Battle? Surly there must be Metro/**** Sexual in the Emperium?
> 
> Thats how this question is sounds to me. It just is.


There are are no male Sisters of Battle because the Eccliesiarchy, after Vandire's Reign of Blood were forbidden from having 'men under arms'. Sebestian Thor circumvented this by keeping the Brides of the Empire, Vandire's bodygaurd and the previous incarnation of the Sisters, and expanding their organisation. 

So no, it's not just because 'it is', there is a valid reason. Just like their is a valid reason (in fluff) as to why there are no female Astartes. 

Also why would metrosexuals or homosexuals want to join a female order of warriors? Both of those sexualities (not that metrosexual is even a sexuality) know very clearly they're not women, and don't pretend to be. Are you perhaps thinking of transexuals?


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually there could be a need for female SM's in certain cases.

In this scenario there are some SM chapters that occupy planets far from the main Imperium because these feral planets produce lots of men suitable for the process. If said planet was invaded and a lot of casualties were sustained then it is likely that the women of the same population will not be as badly affedcted by this than others since forces like Chaos are likely to believe that only men can become marines. Why can't these women (with a couple of little tweaks here and there) be used instead if suitable?


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

arumichic said:


> 3. Would you be genetically engineering out boobs and uteruses??? Because they are annoying as hell to bring into battle. Imagine a hot-blooded woman Abbadon...PMS-ing...not a good image comes to mind.


just for you Arumi










took me abit to find it *shudder*


----------



## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Quick! Gouge Out My Eyes! Arghhh!!!


----------



## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> just for you Arumi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Tis Nurgles unholy offspring 
pass the eyeball bleach and pray for amnesia


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

People yes the fluff explains it with somewhat of a valid way, but your all forgetting one thing...

We live in a male dominated society that has always believed women to be more inferior to men and most of the fluff was written by men, lets also keep in mind that attempting to understand how biologically it works, makes no sense considering most of this fluff was more tha likely written by a guy who either had too much imagination or some dork who diecided girls have cooties.

Also, on the case of mixing women and men in a squad or having both genders in the military. I was on a ship for two years that had both men and women on board and yes we had a few issues with fratnization but for the most part all the women were equal if not better at there jobs than the men, so it is plausable that women could perform on the same level as a male in becoming a space marine.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Rems said:


> There are are no male Sisters of Battle because the Eccliesiarchy, after Vandire's Reign of Blood were forbidden from having 'men under arms'. Sebestian Thor circumvented this by keeping the Brides of the Empire, Vandire's bodygaurd and the previous incarnation of the Sisters, and expanding their organisation.
> 
> So no, it's not just because 'it is', there is a valid reason. Just like their is a valid reason (in fluff) as to why there are no female Astartes.
> 
> Also why would metrosexuals or homosexuals want to join a female order of warriors? Both of those sexualities (not that metrosexual is even a sexuality) know very clearly they're not women, and don't pretend to be. Are you perhaps thinking of transexuals?


No duh. Thats why it just is.


----------



## Zerodyme619 (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah, I was just trying to give a reason, that works within the boundaries of the Fluff. Of course male dominance and so on plays a big role. I doubt, that whoever wrote the original SM Fluff was that much of a biology expert, and even if he was, there could have been a few female Primarchs that would have led to female SpaceMarines.
But that's all if's and would's now. In the background as it stands, there are no female Marines, and as long as you move within the fluff, the explanation that fits best is the biological one. That and the emperor might have been a little sexist =P


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I still argue it's to do with parallel parking.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

it has to do with the pic I linked earlier, the Emperor saw it and said "hell no, no Female Space marines, dont want anything looking like THAT"


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It's just tradition really, there is no process for making Female Space Marines and nor could they invent one now as that would be techo-heresy. If you look at somewhere like Baal where the Blood Angels recruit, they all malnourished borderline mutants and they select the fittest and best out of a hotch potch of stunted freaks. The women on Baal are simply much more valuable than men to the populace, that's why men fight to defend women. It's such a harsh environment they need to keep their populations up, having their fittest and best women running off to become Space Marines? That would not be acceptable. 

Women have better things to do than try to become aspirants thus only men are aspirants so the process only exists to turn men into Space Marines. Simples.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Or GW really is sexist *cough* sisters *cough*

I think it is mainly just the fact that they went with the traditional route.

When most poeple think of soldiers and stuff like SPace marines they think of men in general. The ideas of valuing women more makes sense BTW


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> People yes the fluff explains it with somewhat of a valid way, but your all forgetting one thing...
> 
> We live in a male dominated society that has always believed women to be more inferior to men and most of the fluff was written by men, lets also keep in mind that attempting to understand how biologically it works, makes no sense considering most of this fluff was more tha likely written by a guy who either had too much imagination or some dork who diecided girls have cooties.


Sorry no, that's a cliched answer that has no basis.

Phoebus does a good job at explaining the reasoning.



Phoebus said:


> Astartes don't recruit from the average or above average, though. They recruit from the top-end physical spectrum of human males. Top-end female humans do not compare to top-end male humans either in speed, strength, or endurance. Period. Every single year, we have our top athletes competing in various sports.
> 
> And every single year, the fastest man is faster than the fastest woman. The strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman. The best triathlete, marathon runner, bicyclist, boxer, whatever, is a man.
> 
> Even if zygotes could be keyed to female hormones, the Emperor would thus not have wasted his time with female Space Marines. He wasn't about equal opportunity. He was about conquering the Galaxy and finding a way to protect the species from a parallel dimension ruled by massive psychic intelligences that fed on every negative thing we psychically projected.


And also besides the aforementioned reasons, someone else pointed out the fact that there is no shortage of men. So why bother to invest in two different genders with different chromosomes, biological differences, etc. when the Emperor can just focus on the one with the proven track record?

Human sexual dimorphism is also something that cannot be disputed. Thus the idea of a hulking woman in power-armor crushing heretics with her bare hands, while women are capable of _similar _feats of strength in the real world, just wouldn't work and I'm sure even Naomi Wolf would agree.

What *is *an example of a male dominated society is perhaps the way in which the Sisters of Battle and other female figures are drawn.




KhainiteAssassin said:


> just for you Arumi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I know how the IG feel when they glance upon Chaos symbols.


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I remember GW joking around with female space marines during the good old days of Rouge Trader (1st and 2nd edition anyone?). However that was canned when they became all serious thus throwing out all of the awesome eighties stuff and tongue and cheek humor. 

Off topic: How the hell did this thread get one star?


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I dunno. I thought I was raising a completely valid question and backed it up. Maybe it was made by some fluff nazi?


----------



## Ahzdeeen (Jun 30, 2011)

If you think of IG and SM being based on the military, look at the breakdown of females in the army (IG) and marine corps (SM!) in the 80's. There just weren't that many women in the military yet and those that were in the military; were relegated to administrative jobs. Obviously nowadays that's much different. But back when 40k was coming into its own females just were not associated with combat/warfighting.
I'm also biased as I'm in a combat arms MOS and have no females in my job field.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ahzdeeen said:


> If you think of IG and SM being based on the military, look at the breakdown of females in the army (IG) and marine corps (SM!) in the 80's. There just weren't that many women in the military yet and those that were in the military; were relegated to administrative jobs. Obviously nowadays that's much different. But back when 40k was coming into its own females just were not associated with combat/warfighting.
> I'm also biased as I'm in a combat arms MOS and have no females in my job field.


The IG struck me as military the SMs struck me as Knight Orders


----------



## Ahzdeeen (Jun 30, 2011)

You're probably right, but me being the Marines, I like to think of SM as an extension of my branch of service :grin:


----------



## Tebok (Apr 25, 2008)

Everyone always asks, "Why can't Females be Space Marines?"

However, I have never in my life seen one post... not one with people asking, "Why can't Men be Sisters of Battle?"


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training raised that very analogy just the other day. :wink:


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Warlock in Training raised that very analogy just the other day. :wink:


Because the church was declared the could not have any MAN serving as their personal army, that's what I always heard.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

According to the fluff the Sisters are a big fuck you rules work around for the church. They are not allowed to have 'men at arms' or some such so they went 'ok we will have women at arms then.'


----------



## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

You all wondered what a Female Space marine might look like:



















I reckon these two come pretty close methinks.

SGMAlice


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I always thought they would look like this.


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

SGMAlice said:


> You all wondered what a Female Space marine might look like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those look more like squats in power armor.


----------



## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Nah, I agree with Alice. Women in order to be as powerful as men, would have to be genetically altered to about the same physique, so no sexy women in power armor, sorry guys.


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

You might as well ask why women can't join fraternities and men can't join sororities. Themes of brotherhood are a mark of what makes the Space Marines an attractive army to GW's target demographic.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that the 40k universe is not some harmonious utopia where all of humanity is equal. The long established source materials have the Emperor creating all male primarchs and all male genetically modified space marine parts. Once the Emperor died, it would be heresy to start tinkering with his creations (as was mentioned previously) and therefore no one would even consider it.

This dystopian future where even the good guys are bad guys, coupled with established fluff, merged with the target audience, means that there are no female marines. After all, we may play at gender equality, but it doesn't truly exist. Many males are afraid of, or react poorly to, a strong female authority figure/character. When the target audience is males 13-24, you just aren't looking to alienate any portion of your demographic by taking them out of their comfort zone; you are looking to actually play more to that demographic than many others. I am sure that if there were studies out there showing that you would gain more market share than you lost by having female marines, GW would have pounced on the opportunity to change their fluff and introduce a new line of miniatures a long time ago.

As it stands, they make their 'gender equality' stand with Sisters of Battle, female Assassins and Inuisitors, Howling Banshees, Wyches, other assorted female miniatures I am not familiar with, and the occasional strong female character in fluff or novels. I would even go so far as to say (without any sort of real evidence, just anecdotal evidence) that GW has a higher percentage of 'gender equality' built into their game than the percentage of females in the 40k player base.

I hope that the above made sense and was written in an understandable way. I didn't mean any offense with any of my comments and, if anyone was, I apologize. It just seems like this issue comes up every now and then in a 'what is stopping GW from doing this? Are they gender biased?' way instead of a 'what is the in-fluff reason for this?' way, and this time it seemed like the first way to me and that frustrates me just a bit.

Also, as a side note, saying 'I don't accept that answer' when the actual fluff reason is given is probably not the best approach to a constructive discussion on a fluff issue. The fluff is what it is. If a discourse on why the fluff is that way is desired, perhaps it would be best to state something along the lines of 'Ok, now that I know, does anyone know why the fluff is that way?' It seems far more polite and in the interest of genuine debate.


----------



## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

arumichic said:


> Nah, I agree with Alice. Women in order to be as powerful as men, would have to be genetically altered to about the same physique, so no sexy women in power armor, sorry guys.


Unless Mini Muscle Boobs and lots of hair are what you like.....*shudders*


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Azkaellon said:


> Unless Mini Muscle Boobs and lots of hair are what you like.....*shudders*


Yah but that is the fundamental misconception right there. Would a female space marine have to be strong as a male space marine...well no. Would female space marines be to weak to do their job....well once again the answer is no. After all a 8 foot tall woman in power armor would still be able to brake a catachans ribs with a punch, and would still be stronge enough to drag a chain sword through a ork (think more amazonian looking with small breasts and a athletic build). Would they be able to kill regular marines, probably considering bolter rounds and chaiwrods do most of the killing for marines.

However as it stands the process that makes marines is coded to men, and FWI that doesn't mean testosterone is a key factor to the process (So no over simplified assumptions about body hair). All what the selective coding means is trying to attach a male coded gene seed to a female would lead to twice the number of abnormalities and would probably cause death. Without knowing more about the process it is impossible to say what kind of abnormalities would be present, but its safe to assume manliness is not the the only candidate or even the most likely (As the gene sead itself does not produce testosterone, but generically alters pre existing organs and systems). In fact the most likely side effect would be organ failure hormonal imbalances in the brain, and even a possibility of increased physical frailty.

Now are female space marine possible, kinda but not reliably through the insertion of a prognoid gland. It is however possible in 40k that there are elite female soldiers with power armor running around with minor genetic enhancement, but these are not space marines and probably are in too few a number to be considered a army.

As a passing note let me re-illiterate what I said first paragraph as a question. Do you think a 8 foot tale woman in a ton of armor should be T3-Str3, or would they still be Str4-T4?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I don't think a pair of boobs would work with the whole ribless look that their chest cavity does. If they did have them it would look like a horrible boob job or as said above mini muscle boobs.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> After all a 8 foot tall woman in power armor would still be able to brake a catachans ribs with a punch


And out of armor?



LukeValantine said:


> As a passing note let me re-illiterate what I said first paragraph as a question. Do you think a 8 foot tale woman in a ton of armor should be T3-Str3, or would they still be Str4-T4?


My question to the women who read these forums, what would you get from women being able to become like male Space Marines? 

What about it would satisfy you? Is it simply an equality thing? 

Were it possible, would it not detract from the whole feminine aspect that comes with being a woman? Or are you of the belief that this notion of femininity is a concept created by men?

Personally, I can't visualize a female chaos space marine eating a loyalist alive, crushing a baby's head with their hands or doing the other nasty stuff a tainted Space Marine would casually do.

inb4sexist.


----------



## wncranger (Jul 23, 2010)

Okay, done. Female Space Marines. Now, YOU have to come up with an appropriate chapter name.

Here is the Chapter Mistress:









And the Chapter Hero in her chitin working with a plasma discus:









Here is the Chapter Chaplain:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)




----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Most likely the original game designers got nose bleeds whenever they thought of genetically enhanced amazon sized boobage so they declared it against the rules.


my though exactly!


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

TheSpore said:


> People yes the fluff explains it with somewhat of a valid way, but your all forgetting one thing...
> 
> We live in a male dominated society that has always believed women to be more inferior to men and most of the fluff was written by men, lets also keep in mind that attempting to ...bla blab la .


I do agree but... we are just nerds.
What does the nerd community got to do with "society".
"They" are just a bunch of kids and we are just nerds.
Its not like some hobby will change the social strucures of society.


Seriously, it is fun that they are all male becouse it strokes our male ego
and occasionally we need that methinks.


----------



## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

has anyone thought that quite a few of the chapters recruit from feral worlds etc. where the best and strongest win.........thats usually the males fighting not the females.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I can think of three good reasons.

1.) In the law of supply and demand females are more valuable.

One man can mate with three females and keep a population going. There's that whole nine month thing.

2.) On a feral world it's the men who are going to survive. Why? Let's see. For a week every month women experience nausea severe craps and other things. When you're in a situation where you could be attacked by a wild animal at anytime that's not a good thing.

Then there's the nine month thing again. Can you imagine a pregnant woman wrestling with a wild animal? Plus labor makes them vulnerable for at least a few hours.

It revolves around the men to protect them when they are vulnerable.


----------



## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> I can think of three good reasons.
> 
> 1.) In the law of supply and demand females are more valuable.
> 
> ...


You do realize that the Imperium has millions if not billions of planets. They will throw enough guardsmen at you to make an army run out of bullets. So the whole supply and demand argument doesn't work.

As for everyone else saying why can't men becomes sisters of battle, it causes their is a law saying they cannot have men under arms.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> You do realize that the Imperium has millions if not billions of planets. They will throw enough guardsmen at you to make an army run out of bullets. So the whole supply and demand argument doesn't work.
> 
> As for everyone else saying why can't men becomes sisters of battle, it causes their is a law saying they cannot have men under arms.


We're not talking about guardsmen. We are talking about space marines.


----------



## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> We're not talking about guardsmen. We are talking about space marines.


Your statement is still about population. In which case that is not a problem.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

klaswullt said:


> my though exactly!





klaswullt said:


> I do agree but... we are just nerds.
> What does the nerd community got to do with "society".
> "They" are just a bunch of kids and we are just nerds.
> Its not like some hobby will change the social strucures of society.
> ...


Reviving an old thread is okay, but please try to be more productive than this.


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

Why are you so extreme? What is the point?
Fluff question gets fluff answer.
If you don't like the answer then you say the fluff is not important.
Non-fluff question gets non-fluff answers.
If you don't like the answer then you say the non-fluff is not important.




According to feminism, You look for social constructs, and try to reveal gender roles in warhammer40k.
You look for something that resembles the social constructs that feminism talks about.
So you find something to misunderstand and don't give up until that is changed.
Art is just politic for you, its only a symbol of female qouta.
Artist liberty and art for its own sake gets crushed.
Everything in life become booring, becouse there is no escape anywhere.
People who likes warhammer40k will not find it enjoyable
just becouse you command us to "you must find this enjoyable becouse
it is politically correct".
If you don't care about reason, care about art. Is there ANY artistic
or FUN contribution.
Becouse as it is you are keeping a bad idea alive with feminism
and I hate feminism.
Prove that you actually CARE and is not just some causal person.


There are no social constructs in a wargame nor in this type of fiction.
Warhammer 40k is a very masculine themed universe, 
there is only war and no love, no peace nor talking with the enemy.
It is a dark universe.
Is that somehow some social construct to oppress women, I dont think so
and dont think it portrays any negative steriotypes of women either?
I don't think so.


What about the artistic quality?
Is there ANY artistic justification for female space marines?
A female Space Marine requires GW to totally destroy the hole story
that made that universe popular and you say that fluff don't matter.

The feminism of this is extremely interesting.
You don't seem to care about the rational answers.
You ask why Space Marines are all male in the story and if people answers the instory reason
you change your question retroactive.
You continue seeking new dimentions, answers that you want to hear and when we shoot down them you change again.


I don't like feminism becouse to me it is a rottening that destroys everything interesting in life.
What could I mean?, well first I dont' believe in social constructivist theory
and have an slightly more quasi-objectivist view on reality and society. 
Second men and women are different.
Third, I don't understand women, I don't have sex, I don't like meeting strangers
and I like to forget everything about sex or women occasionally with violence.


----------



## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> However the only person to kill a primarch other than another primarch or chaos servant was in fact a chick M'shen.


I'm not going to take part in the rest of this boring old topic, but that is a 
REALLY bad example (you could probably find better ones). 

Night Haunter specifically LET her kill him, because of some belief that it would 
have his actions vindicated. He even ordered the night lords to let her sneak 
through for crying out loud! 

(unless the night lord books have changed the story somehow)


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

klaswullt said:


> Why are you so extreme? What is the point?
> Fluff question gets fluff answer.
> If you don't like the answer then you say the fluff is not important.
> Non-fluff question gets non-fluff answers.
> ...


A few points, 

1: Don't assume anything about other forum members until you actually know them. This thread has run its course and I did not feel your post added anything productive because,

2: Feminism and whatever other political subjects are a more serious debate than game fiction. We have a relevant forum for that, and these topics are forbidden from being discussed elsewhere. 

3: Pay attention to the dates on threads please. Read them. If it has run its course and all has been said, then let it lie. There is no point in reviving a thread just to agree with a post made two or three years ago.


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

I have posted everything in wrong threads and replied to non-existant posts.




Serpion5 said:


> A few points,
> 
> 1: Don't assume anything about other forum members until you actually know them. This thread has run its course and I did not feel your post added anything productive because,
> 
> ...


 
Pardon me but I didnt't start it.
Other person X did when X, abandoned in game universe or the artistic justification completly and talked about social structuries etc...

1. Many of the posts in question give me impressions of feminism, and seem to be void
of anything that "is just" game related.
It was an justified assumption.
It is logical to assume things about strangers, friendship makes you biased
so I rather assume first and then learn to know a person.


2.
I plead, ignorance. Ok I got it
but I DID NOT START IT.

3. Ok. I plead ignorance.
But now there seem to be alot to say.


----------

