# So, whos Power Fist is it anyways?



## TyphusHeraldOfNurgle (Nov 5, 2009)

Soooo whats the big deal with power fists? Seams I can't write a list without peeps being like "Oh my god you dont have power fists on your marines?! Your gonna lose!" Like seriously EVERYONE tells me to put them in. What do they do thats soo great no one else can do it? I must know!!!!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

well how many men in your army strike at str8 with a power weapon in close combat?, thats what they do nobody else can.

although I do hate how everyone and there dog only suggest power fists and nothing else, there is absolutely nothing wrong with power weapons, combi weapons and any other weapon, people have just become fixated to make every army list the same as everyone elses.


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## TyphusHeraldOfNurgle (Nov 5, 2009)

I mean I can see where one would be coming from bu for less than half the points not to mention the points for the sergeant for a melta gun that gets 2d6 for armor pen at range and does the same damn thing, and you can take TWO of them for still half as cheap.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Get charged by a wraithlord or a dread, and you will be wishing you had a powerfist.

- Can kill tanks
- Can kill MC's
- Can insta-kill T4 HQ's
- Wounds almost everything on 2's and ignores saves

And best of all, one is hidden in all of your squads.
Seriously, whats not to love about them?


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

In close combat you are usually getting at least 2 str 8 power weapon attacks.

That will instakill most things. Plus you can take out dreads, rhinos, etc.

There's really no reason not to take one, unless you absolutely have to go first in CC.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

The powerfist helps you out if you get charged by a walkers or monstrous creatures ie. Trygons...
You can easily smash a tank with it, and it instant death any T4 model, warriors, independent characters etc, and it helps you win combat.

I always take one in most of my squads, but if you much prefer something else you could go with that, the game is "supposed" to be fun after all


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## <E!_Mance> (Jan 2, 2008)

Thiese arguments, though slightly repetetive, all have a point.
The Power fist is a useful fight-all that can be relied upon to perform well in most situations, but there is a few overlooked situations in this.

*Can harm a Wraithlord or Walker:* Usually, Walkers are slow, as are ALL Wraithlords. If you can get yourself into a situation that merits a charge from a Wraithlord, Defiler, Dreadnought, Killa Kan, etc. Then by all means take a Powerfist. But if you're being assaulted by these lumbering monstrosities regularly, you're just playing like a fool. Power fists are a full 10pts more than Power weapons, and lessen your attack count. Sure, S4 can't harm T8+ or AV11+, but not everything in your unit needs to. And against AV12 or less, you can use the Krak Grenades everyone gets as standard. If ignoring armour is your game, either works.

*Instakill T4 HQs:* Ok, this is at least valid. But to properly ensure it, let's try the statistical mathhammer for a generic SM Sarge Charge against a generic SM Captain:
Power weapon: 2H, 1W, 0.5 unsaved Invulnerable saves
Power fist: 1.5H, 1.25W, 0.65 unsaved Invulnerable saves
Hmm, nice. What about reversing the roles?
PW: 1.5, 0.75, 0.375 unsaved wounds
PF: 1, 0.83, 0.416 unsaved wounds
The advantage is negligable for 10pts.

*Wound Reliably:* Yes, yes they do.

*'You can use Power weapons if you want, I guess there's no point in stopping you, it's mean to be fun after all I guess....':* 8 Veterans with the old True Grit & Counter-attack rules and Bolters, Sarge with Power weapon and no other armour ignoring. They defeated (regularly, might I add?) 10 Assault Marines with a hidden Power fist with minimal losses. Everyone with CCWs attacks in Initiative, causing plenty o wound, then the Power weapon hacks a few guys away no problemo. Now, after all of that, the Power fist hits a few times.
If the wearer lives long enough, then sure, he can do some damage. But it's a matter of waiting. It's about effectiveness in Initiative weighed up against damage potential, really. The REAL awesomeness is found in a way of having both in the same unit. (Chappy & Fist sarge for example).

Powerfists are useful. But for another 30pts gained from exchanging 3 for Power weapons you can buy a whole lot of other upgrades that can really benefit you in more ways than just a big ol' pimp hand.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Powerfists are a great tack on for when things go wrong. Yes you don't want to be assaulted by walkers or suchlike things, but you shit happens and if it does you'll be glad you had a powerfist. Things like Tyrinid warriors are vulnerable to a good old 'fisting, amongst other things. It's all about creating threats in your army. Don't get me wrong you will still lose the combat against specialist close combat troops but you can take a few with you on your way down. 

Aramoro


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

Honestly, I first started taking power fists 'cause I thought they looked cool.

I only realized they were any good a month after I had hoarded as many as possible


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I used to play SW with their last dex- units of 10 blood claws with 2 fists was pretty standard fare for me. 31 attacks on charge plus 6 S8 was great. Meant that I rarely had to worry about anti-tank and Im actually doing more wounds onto T4 then otherwise (3A *1/2 hit*5/6 wound=1.25 wounds... vs 4A*1/2*1/2=1 wound) and they now cause ID, so things like nob bikerz are going to feel the heat.
Its the ID that I think is most useful about the PF- it means that the enemy have to be very careful when putting their HQs anywhere near you (and always remember the nob/nob bikerz, especially if going to a tourny) without being worried that you'll charge into them and get the PF into b2b with their character. 3A for most PFs on charge- 1.5 hits, most wound, meaning about 60% chance that their 150-200pt character is going to die (unless they can pump out wounds onto your unit- you need a large unit if relying on PFs).

A PW is a nice weapon to have, but means you are dedicated to anti-infantry. A PF will enable you to counter anything that comes at you other then hoardes, and since flexibility is a huge asset for any army its not surprising that a vast number of players swear by the PF.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

<E!_Mance> said:


> Power weapon: 2H, 1W, 0.5 unsaved Invulnerable saves
> Power fist: 1.5H, 1.25W, 0.65 unsaved Invulnerable saves
> Hmm, nice. What about reversing the roles?
> PW: 1.5, 0.75, 0.375 unsaved wounds
> ...


You forget that the power weapon will have to perform similarly for 6 rounds of combat in order to kill the character (3 wounds, 50/50 chance of fail). The powerfist only needs to cause 1 unsaved wound and the captain is dead. You have a slightly higher than 50% chance of this happening on the turn you charge.

I don't like the universalization of army lists right now (e.g. Every Marine army has Meltagun/Powerfist Tac squads with Vulkan, every Chaos list is Duel Lash with Zerkers and Plaguies etc etc) but the reason why they are so damned universal is because they are just very good.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

tac PW vs SM captain (off charge- best case for PW).

3A, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds, 0.37 unsaved


tac PF vs SM captain
2A
1W= 48.6%, unsaved 24.3% (chance of hitting once and wounding + hitting twice and only wounding once)
2W= 17.3%, unsaved 8.7% (chance of hitting twice and wounding with both)
Since any unsaved wound causes ID total unsaved =33%, or 3W*0.33=0.99 average wounds (as a double chech- average wounds caused are 24.3+2*8.7%=41.7%)

So the wounds are actually av. 0.38 for a power weapon or 0.99 for a powerfist if against a 3W character with a 4+inv save... thats huge for 10pts.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

A similar question came up in the tactics forum (section?) not so long ago.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55060

There I responded thusly (mostly relevant):



OddJob said:


> If you are talking about a purely competative standpoint you have to realise one thing:
> 
> TACTICAL MARINES ARE RUBBISH.
> 
> ...


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

I agree with OddJob tactical marines should not have a power fist for several reasons and a short summery of those imo are:

They are very expensive for whatever benefit they add and can only be used effectively under very specific set of conditions ie vs IC, MC or Walkers.
None of these targets are something you want tacticals to be fighting anyway, but are targets best destroyed from range or by terminators so why not use the points on something to counter these things instead.

For the power fist to be worth its points the tactical squad will have to seek out cc, something that goes against their optimum use which is short-long range fire done from cover, usually from inside a rhino.
Against the few armies that tacticals actually excel against in cc the slow power fist will only allow for more return attacks and will thus not be very helpful.

So to sum up adding a 15%+ increase to the base cost of an expensive unit for very situational item is not point effective so it will tend to hinder your army more than it helps in most battles.


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## DuesIncarmine (Jul 3, 2009)

i think power fist are good depending on what your play style is. mine i like to use power weapons with meltabombs. gives me anti-infantry and anti-tank.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

<E!_Mance> said:


> If you can get yourself into a situation that merits a charge from a Wraithlord, Defiler, Dreadnought, Killa Kan, etc. Then by all means take a Powerfist. But if you're being assaulted by these lumbering monstrosities regularly, you're just playing like a fool.


The rest of these I can accept, but Defilers are walkers with fleet - get within 18" and they can potentially charge you.

I wouldn't call anyone being assaulted by a defiler a fool to be honest.

Also there's a lot of situations where it's almost impossible to avoid have to fight one of the above - if it's sat on the objective you're trying to assault, if you move a little too close, expecting it to die from your shooting phase and everything ends up bouncing off.

There's a ton of reasons you might be assaulted by a walker - being an idiot is only one of them. Having a fist means you can deal with it rather than writing a squad off, thus makes your squads able to achieve more.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

I tend to take the big armour stuff out first, therefore I have never needed a powerfist, in any of my games.

Also I never let my marines get caught by big slow dreads and wraith lords, most likly becuase I don't pod my marines, too many bodies dead first turn.

Also anyone who charged a marine squad and didn't kill it in the first turn at a higher 'I' then your marines isn't doing it right.

That is why I don't take powerfists, and its something other people don't like to hear.

The rest of these I can accept, but Defilers are walkers with fleet - get within 18" and they can potentially charge you. - critta

And las cannons firing out of rhinos can potentially kill them.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I took PF on pretty much all my units not to protect me from walkers (though getting stuck in combats you cant fight is silly), but mainly for the ID of enemy characters, nobz and for when attacking MCs. If my shooting has taken an MC down to 1-2 wounds then I just charge it and finish it in combat- bolters arent going to do much of anything to them but a powerfist will.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

In Constrast to the point about having a 1/9 chance to kill the dread every turn, your chance sof getting out with combat tactics are a little less then 50% . Albeit you have to kill the dread or you get escorted off the board but it's free. 

The Issue for me comes down to whether I would rather have more units all specialized to a certain role or have less units that suck slightly less at a certain role. 

as to tac squads being uncompetitive look at razorback spam armies those are certainly fairly competitive and they us tac squads.

The problem I have with Assualt termie oriented lists is that land raiders are killed by meltas just like everything else and then your termies get shot to hell as volume of fire or CC attacks will kill them. I think razorback spam beats out Dual raider in my book.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Drizzt_13 said:


> as to tac squads being uncompetitive look at razorback spam armies those are certainly fairly competitive and they us tac squads.


a) That type of build minimises the number of tac marines/upgrades to maximise the MSU approach to shooty vehicles. It certainly wouldn't consider power fists on it's small tac squads.
b) It's not all that competative- just because a certain internet toughguy waxes lyrical about it doesn't make it so. IG do the vehicle MSU idea much better and still aren't unbeatable. Killpoint missions take you right out of the running for tournament top spots (this is certainly the case at 1500pts).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Drizzt_13 said:


> as to tac squads being uncompetitive look at razorback spam armies those are certainly fairly competitive and they us tac squads.


They dont _use_ tac squads at all... they contain them thats all. The plan is to never get them out of the razorbacks and to have so many vehicles on teh table that you never go after the razorback at all- if scouts could choose to take a DC razorback then you would probably see scouts in the list instead purely for the point reduction (makes the razorback scoring for the cheapest possible cost).


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## jams (Sep 19, 2009)

i don't get the whole powerfist hype either. i'm firmly in the pw/meltabomb camp.

besides,pf sarges are just easy prey for mind war which is a favourite tactic of mine. take out the pf, and melta if there is one, then charge with a wraithlord


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## ArgentSnowe (Nov 6, 2009)

I worry about giving up the decent initiative that the SWs get with PFs, I'm still in the theory-crafting stage of my force, but it seems like LF and PW/MB are better choices for taking heavy things out than losing the attacks and initiative with PFs. I'm saying this from the outside looking in, so take it with a grain of salt.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

sure there is nothing wrong with a power wep or combi...if you want to be useful in like 50% fewer situations. Im using mostly noise marines and guess what, at first i was using power swords for the uhuhuh 5i, but in the end practise tought me to take only powerfists - simply statisticaly way superior.

Ofcourse it fits my army combination, also fists would have let me sloughter my first game against nidzilla list when it was at the height of its power in 4th, instead of taking draw -.-


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> sure there is nothing wrong with a power wep or combi...if you want to be useful in like 50% fewer situations. Im using mostly noise marines and guess what, at first i was using power swords for the uhuhuh 5i, but in the end practise tought me to take only powerfists - simply statisticaly way superior.
> 
> Ofcourse it fits my army combination, also fists would have let me sloughter my first game against nidzilla list when it was at the height of its power in 4th, instead of taking draw -.-


I'd like to see what your LGS is like where 50% of the situations your average troops squad is required to handle is a MC or walker. Chaos squads can actually assault decently so giving them CC upgrades isn't a complete waste but I think there are few situations other then ones where you shoot a Carnifex down to 1-2 wounds where you would want to assault it with a PF anyway. 



Tim/Steve said:


> They dont _use_ tac squads at all... they contain them thats all. The plan is to never get them out of the razorbacks and to have so many vehicles on teh table that you never go after the razorback at all- if scouts could choose to take a DC razorback then you would probably see scouts in the list instead purely for the point reduction (makes the razorback scoring for the cheapest possible cost).



Fair enough I just want to say that not all competitive marine list abandon tac squad, no they aren't an efficient choice but they do have their purpose. Also I think the dual raider list is actually fairly uncompetitive and not that effective, so i was trying to steer people toward sore balanced lists.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

jams said:


> i don't get the whole powerfist hype either. i'm firmly in the pw/meltabomb camp.
> 
> besides,pf sarges are just easy prey for mind war which is a favourite tactic of mine. take out the pf, and melta if there is one, then charge with a wraithlord


Ok, so you make a point and then in my mind somewhat refute it with your next one...

Think of it like this - if that fist wasn't there, those mind wars would be able to be targetted at something else, and your wraithlord could charge the squad without a care in the world.

The fact you have to expend the effort of your Farseer in order to get rid of them kind proves that they're somewhat worthwhile in my mind.

The bit I don't get with all you pw/mb types is this. You get 1 attack with a melta bomb, against all but stationary vehicle targets you have a 50% chance of that attack missing.

Compare this to a fist, where you get your attacks, plus the one for charging - many more chances to hit, whcih equates to many more chances of you actually killing the vehicle you've charged and not wasting a shooting and an assault phase on failing to kill a vehicle.

Next case in point - MC's. They have multiple wounds, and meltabombs don't work on them as they're not classed as vehicles. Any squad without a fist won't be able to touch them, or in best case scenario will be wounding on a 5+ or 6+

I dunno, maybe I've just played too many games against prince heavy demon lists, but I just don't leave home without a fist in every squad any more - my only exception tends to be noise marine squads, who get put on troop hunting duties anyways


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Drizzt_13 said:


> I'd like to see what your LGS is like where 50% of the situations your average troops squad is required to handle is a MC or walker.


Or a model with more than 1 wound. E.g. Nobz, any HQ choices etc. Or just a higher T value than your Strength (T5 Plague Marines, Bikers).


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Adding to this, let's look at armies likely to be using 1+ MC's

Nids - nuff said, try taking down a trygon with a pw/mb combo sometime and let me know how you do 
CSM - most come with at least 1 DP
Eldar - Wraithlords and Avatars - in my experience 1 of the two often finds it's way into most lists
Demons - Most that I've played against include at least 1 greater demon or demon prince
Necrons - C'tan - dunno, don't play many necron lists

Add to this that none of the above models can take out the rest of the squad in a single turn to get to your fist and it suddenly becomes a quite appealing prospect to have one.


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

It really depends on the role of the unit on the battlefield. My bezerkers are hard hitters and they will go and strike right in the middle of the enemy lines. Facing tanks, walkers MCs. So they get a PF (after all 4Str9 on the charge are not bad). When I field CC oriented noise marines, they will go for infantry. Therefore the champ gets PW/MB and a Doom Siren. When I field Raptors I will equip them either as tank hunter 2 Melta guns and PF or as infantry hunter (flamer and double lightening claw.) When I field PMs as object sitters, they get a PF, because it is likley that they get charged by something big and they have a bad ini anyway.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

As a CSM Player a PF is essetial to PMs (hit last usaully anyway), Beserkers (always charging MC/Walkers/Infatry), and CSM Champs (CSMs excell better in CC than SMs anyway). So PF are damn near essential to CSM lists.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

*Having a chance to hurt something is not the same as being an effective counter.* Let's take some examples:



Critta said:


> Nids - nuff said, try taking down a trygon with a pw/mb combo sometime and let me know how you do
> CSM - most come with at least 1 DP
> Eldar - Wraithlords and Avatars - in my experience 1 of the two often finds it's way into most lists
> Demons - Most that I've played against include at least 1 greater demon or demon prince
> Necrons - C'tan - dunno, don't play many necron lists


A trygon kills 7 x 8/9 x 5/6 = 5.2 marines on the charge and 4.4 in subsequent rounds (with no retreat saves your squad is dead in 2 rounds).

In the single round your fist gets to go it manages 2 x 1/2 x 5/6 = 0.8 wounds... of the six the trygon comes with. Note that a full 10 bod squad is roughly the same pts cost as a trygon.

Nuff said, try taking down a trygon with a vet sarge powerfist sometime and let me know how you do 

In one combat round the sarge does:
vs DP - 2 x 1/2 x 5/6 x 2/3 = 20/36 = 0.56 wounds
vs Avatar - 2 x 1/3 x 5/6 x 1/2 = 10/36 = 0.28 wounds
vs WL - 2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 2/4 = 0.50 wounds

Against deamons it's definately suboptimal thanks to all the invunerable saves and a c'tan pwns marines in cc so hard it's not funny.

I repeat:
*Having a chance to hurt something is not the same as being an effective counter.*

I'm not totally down on powerfists in tactical squads, but you have to realise that they are there for damaging vehicles (not dreadnoughts) and lower toughness troopers (especially t4 multi wound). I find it hard to get enough utility out of the fist with that criteria, especially with melta/krak grenades for vehicles.


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## Reddawn211 (Mar 4, 2010)

Not to take this thread off topic, but what about terminators? Are the terminator close combat assault squads better at a specific role with their PW or are the regular terminators just as adapt at it while being more versatile?


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