# About the Lion (potential spoilers inside)



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

**SPOILERS DOWN BELOW**
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**End Spoiler Warning**

Okay, I'm currently reading the the Space Wolves 2nd Omnibus and I finished the part in which Brother Captain Jeremiah dueled the Fallen Cadmus in 1v1 and while they were bantering back and forth, Jeremiah spoke of how Cadmus had betrayed everything he'd once held dear and then stuck Cadmus in the belly with his sword. After that, Cadmus (clearly defeated) said something to the effect of how the only real betrayal was that of their primarch (nothing more could be said, due to Jeremiah finishing him off as he said that).

Now, with that bit of info out of the way, we know that the Lion is in stasis, deep on the rock with (basically) only the Emperor knowing he's down there. I believe I read here similar belief that the Lion was quite possibly a traitor (such things seem to be confirmed in the material I just mentioned). Is there anything else out there that would confirm it also? Even give more detail on things?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71243
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72773
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10033
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14258

These all go into it quite a bit. For my part though, i don't believe for a second the Lion was a traitor. Beyond the words of the fallen, whose words can hardly be trusted, there is no evidence to show he is, if anything the Horus Heresy series enforces his complete loyalty. It's also worth mentioning he broke the Siege of Terra with Russ.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Speaking of the Dark Angels, there's what? 2 or 3 books for them out there? Angel of Darkness and what else? (I know I shouldn't be looking into getting more as I've currently got left to read: Ultramarines Omnibus and the 3 Gaunts Ghosts Omnibus before I move onto anything else).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The two Horus Heresy books, Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I would guess it's probably more to do with what the Lion did to Caliban than anything to do with him actually being a traitor to the Imperium.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It for the most part is still up in the air. The Lion does have that mystery part of him. Mostly for a reason, so that he differentiates from the other Primarchs. I personally don't believe... anymore... that the Lion is a traitor. But there is nothing for or against him that strongly supports what was going on with him and his legion during the Siege of Terra.

A few things to note though, was that he was an ambitious and arrogant primarch that wanted to become Warmaster. Whether his intentions hurt or supported the Imperium during this time, he most definitely did not want Horus to end up ruling the Imperium. 

So the Lion so far could be looked at like am arrogant Primarch who unknowingly gave the siege weapons to Perturabo, and then got ambushed by the Night Lords so that he was not in time to save Terra from Horus.

Or he wasn't a traitor persae, instead conciliated something even more sinister... which was to watch the Imperium and the traitor forces of Horus burn so that he could grab the Imperium for his own...

In most likely though, though it sounds pretty interesting, I would go with the first one. Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.


now that would be worth reading about. Think the lion debate has gone on for a while and there are those that say he was there are those who say he wasn't for my part i believe he was just watching and waiting to see who did win and how best to consolodate his leigons position but thats my two pennath


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Diatribe1974 said:


> **SPOILERS DOWN BELOW**
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Your spoiler warning is..... interesting lol! If you want to use spoiler tags:

Spoiler tags = [XspoilerX] your post [/XspoilerX] only without the X's

Its probably quicker than your alternative but it's up to you. 



Diatribe1974 said:


> Speaking of the Dark Angels, there's what? 2 or 3 books for them out there? Angel of Darkness and what else? (I know I shouldn't be looking into getting more as I've currently got left to read: Ultramarines Omnibus and the 3 Gaunts Ghosts Omnibus before I move onto anything else).


If you want more of the Fallen's ramblings and have the anthology _Let the Galaxy Burn_ they feature in two short stories within it: _The Black Pearl_ and _Unforgiven_. Although it doesn't really add anything significant, just the usual mud slinging.

Not sure if you've read _Fallen Angels_ or not so this may contain spoilers for you but if you want my opinion...



In _Fallen Angels_ the Lion attacks and kills Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves while defending a forge world in the name of the Emps so he's a loyalist. An opportunist too mind but a loyalist none the less. It would take a pretty ridiculous and spontaneous plot twist to turn him from the emperor at this stage.
 

By the way speaking with the benefit of hindsight I wouldn't waste my time reading any of the DA related books mentioned in this thread (or much else for that matter) if you have Gaunts Ghosts and, to a lesser extent, Ultramarines books to get through.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I would guess it's probably more to do with what the Lion did to Caliban than anything to do with him actually being a traitor to the Imperium.


Other than possibly installing a secret survivor of another knighthood to oversee literature on metaphysical concepts that didn't seem to apply to Caliban anymore, I'm not sure what the Lion did to his adopted homeworld.

The insurgents on Caliban demonize the Primarch for betraying them, but their accusations seem to boil down to "he told us he defeated the monsters, but now, fifty years later, they're back!" And... the Lion can do what exactly about this, given that (A) everyone thought they were destroyed back in the day and (B) Luther has been suppressing all negative information regarding what is happening on Caliban (such as the insurgency, the equipment shortfalls, etc.)?

Assume the Lion _did_ pour over the Lupus library and saw writings on how some ancient daemonic forces infested the planet. Aside from monsters, which, by the way, due to their ignorance they couldn't tie to Chaos, it's not like there was any evidence of this actually happening. Then the Imperium shows up, and squashes that kind of "mysticism" even more.



ckcrawford said:


> But there is nothing for or against him that strongly supports what was going on with him and his legion during the Siege of Terra.


Actually, there is. He was traveling with the Space Wolves. They themselves corroborate this, and their legends even state he argued with Russ so that they would get there sooner.



> A few things to note though, was that he was an ambitious and arrogant primarch that wanted to become Warmaster. Whether his intentions hurt or supported the Imperium during this time, he most definitely did not want Horus to end up ruling the Imperium.


Ambitious, yes. Arrogant, no. In fifty years, the Lion racked up a record third only to Horus (longest standing) and Dorn (second only to Horus). Guilliman would have been the only individual he should have to worry about as a legitimate contender... and old Roboute would have had zero role in stopping the Heresy (assuming it had just been Horus and his three allied Legions, of course).

"Horus Rising" states that the Lion was "cynically resolved, unsurprised by the turn of events"--as in, "yeah, yeah, big surprise, he was with the Emperor the longest"*. Not as in he had some sort of a beef or vendetta.

* Interestingly, the same quote states Russ also was cynically resolved. What I like about this is that it was the first hint that Russ was not the brawling barbarian we all thought him to be. Knowing what we know now, this is likely a reflection of Russ, the Emperor's Executioner, cynically understanding that the guise he and his Legion wore, and his unwholesome role as a slayer of brethren, kept him out of the running.



> Or he wasn't a traitor persae, instead conciliated something even more sinister... which was to watch the Imperium and the traitor forces of Horus burn so that he could grab the Imperium for his own...


One Legion against even the tattered remnants of NINE others would have had no chance.



> In most likely though, though it sounds pretty interesting, I would go with the first one. Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.


Agree to disagree on this one. The Lion grabbed an obscure, century-old factoid to almost seal the deal on the biggest war the Galaxy had ever seen before it even really got started. Not that I think he would be (A) stupid or (B) disloyal enough to take on the Imperium, but I doubt Guilliman would somehow have been the threat that kept him in line.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Ambitious, yes. Arrogant, no. In fifty years, the Lion racked up a record third only to Horus (longest standing) and Dorn (second only to Horus). Guilliman would have been the only individual he should have to worry about as a legitimate contender... and old Roboute would have had zero role in stopping the Heresy (assuming it had just been Horus and his three allied Legions, of course).


I would have to agree to disagree on this one. The Lion was pretty arrogant to think because he simply racked up a good toll count that he would have been the next in line for contention. I mean if he really was, he wouldn't have tried so desperately to obtain those siege weapons for Perturabo for his support. After all, it really falls onto the Emperor to decide who would become the next Warmaster. I think by doing this (you could agree or not) it was the Lion having doubts that the Emperor would chose him over a couple other Primarchs.

And then you'd have to ask, did the Emperor really just pick Horus because of his racked up victories? I would have said that was part of it. But he really chose him because Horus' vision of the Imperium was closest to the his. 

I believe it came down to trust and how well the Emperor knew his Warmaster. The Lion is too secretive compared to some of the relations the Emperor had with the other Primarchs. Granted, we have little information between him and the other Primarchs.

We also have what Horus believed to have been the most worthy of the title. Sanguinus. I think its safe to assume that the Lion didn't know he was going to die during the siege. As such, he may have been the next in line towards the title. 




> One Legion against even the tattered remnants of NINE others would have had no chance.


Probably not. This is where I lost my opinion on this matter quite a while ago. A few of the circumstances though, I think you could debate though. For one, he could have come to Terra the way Guilliman did. At that point considering he thinks the Emperor would have came out better than he did, he could have convinced the Emperor he was the rightful successer to the title. Afterall, Guilliman had his own empire to control.




Phoebus said:


> Agree to disagree on this one. The Lion grabbed an obscure, century-old factoid to almost seal the deal on the biggest war the Galaxy had ever seen before it even really got started. Not that I think he would be (A) stupid or (B) disloyal enough to take on the Imperium, but I doubt Guilliman would somehow have been the threat that kept him in line.


I'm guessing your disagreeing with the two options. Lol, couldn't tell you put a lot into this one. I totally understand your position. After all, it is pretty much one of the most _dangerous_ stances to try and defend. Especially with lack of evidence. The thing though, and I know GW didn't really think about the fluff before using the "fence sitter" theory, is to try and figure out how GW and the Heresy Team could go about this business if they ever decided to go this route (which they probably wont). But non the less, I still think it is possible. 

Now going back to the second option, I'm speaking in more a very basic look as well as I was doing with the first. The Lion would probably more specifically would have been quite about the whole ordeal. They obviously wouldn't have returned to Terra with thousands of angry and pissed off loyalist astartes and guardsmen armies and went "aha, I planned this out from the start, now I'm the Warmaster." All those men and also the entire legion of the Ultramarines is next to impossible. Even if he managed to pull that out of his ass and just out smarted all their armies, it would have been next to impossible to get the Imperium to go with him. There would have been so much unrest, plotting, and scheming. All of it against him. 

More or less, he probably would have made it appear like he was late to Terra and that he had been preoccupied with the Horus' threat from a distance. Just like most of us think. To look like a true hero. I actually think Guilliman being the tactful genius he was, would have probably been okay with the Lion controlling most of the Empire. After all, Guilliman sacrificed a lot of his efforts and his astartes to restore the Imperium. Which is something I truly doubt he wanted to do. But he was the only mind, really intact over the ordeal. You have Khan, Vulkan, and Russ chasing down chaos to the unknown parts of the galaxy. You have Sanguinus and Manus dead. And you have the Pretorian of terra in blind hate, also going on his own crusade.


Though an unlikely plot against the Lion's loyalty, I do like the "second thought" that has been created about him. From all the little ironies, misfortunes, and other things going on during and after the Heresy. The idea that one legion, and one Primarch could have possibly changed everything if they and he had just been there is pretty cool. Its one of those other "ahhh fuck" moments of the Imperium.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I would have to agree to disagree on this one. The Lion was pretty arrogant to think because he simply racked up a good toll count that he would have been the next in line for contention.


No... that's not the case. Hence why, after Ullanor, the Lion was, again, "cynically resolved" to the fact that he _wouldn't_ become Warmaster--despite his combat record. On the other hand, though, given his combat record... _and_ the fact Horus was no longer Warmaster... _and_ the fact that he showed strategic intuition that escaped even the one Primarch stated to have had a military mind as great as Horus*... would make him a good candidate.

* Dorn's reaction to Garro's news about Horus: send seven Legions to beat up on Horus, while he returned to Terra to continue with defensive fortifications. Textbook, reasonable, solid.

Lion's reaction to the same: "I'm going to counter Horus' end-game before he even gets to it."



> I mean if he really was, he wouldn't have tried so desperately to obtain those siege weapons for Perturabo for his support.


Desperate? I don't see your reasoning. He didn't obtain them for Perturabo. He obtained them to end the Heresy before it even got going. Perturabo was going to Isstvan V. Horus was dug in on Isstvan V. Perturabo was a siege master. The Lion had the most potent siege weapons in the Galaxy. Ergo...



> After all, it really falls onto the Emperor to decide who would become the next Warmaster. I think by doing this (you could agree or not) it was the Lion having doubts that the Emperor would chose him over a couple other Primarchs.


I would say he was solidifying his position. Obviously the Emperor would choose, and then, just as before, X number of Primarchs would probably belly-ache. Perturabo being one of the ones to notably do so the last time around, having him on his side would go a long way toward quashing the B.S.



> And then you'd have to ask, did the Emperor really just pick Horus because of his racked up victories? I would have said that was part of it. But he really chose him because Horus' vision of the Imperium was closest to the his.


The consistent theme boils down to military victories, being by the Emperor the longest, and "being the brightest"... without the latter being qualified very well. Ultimately, what it boils down is that Horus had been around the longest, had the most fame, and didn't have any knocks against him. It's not like anyone could argue against him because "he has implants that make him a berserker!" or "he's a psychopath!" or "he has fangs and fur!" or whatever. The best they could come up with was "I'm almost as good as he is!"



> The Lion is too secretive compared to some of the relations the Emperor had with the other Primarchs. Granted, we have little information between him and the other Primarchs.


No he's not. Where do you get this from? Outside of Astelan, there's no source of this. Why, because he didn't tell his Legion that Luther almost let him get assassinated? Compare this to Horus, in "Horus Rising" dropping a bomb on Loken like "by the way, did you know the powers of the Warp can possess anyone, anywhere, given the right circumstances?" Or what about another whopper: "Let's not ever tell anyone about our two missing brothers..." :shok:



> We also have what Horus believed to have been the most worthy of the title. Sanguinus. I think its safe to assume that the Lion didn't know he was going to die during the siege. As such, he may have been the next in line towards the title.


Irrelevant, since Sanguinius didn't even want the title, right?...



> Probably not. This is where I lost my opinion on this matter quite a while ago. A few of the circumstances though, I think you could debate though. For one, he could have come to Terra the way Guilliman did. At that point considering he thinks the Emperor would have came out better than he did, he could have convinced the Emperor he was the rightful successer to the title.


In no way could this have happened. He was coming with Russ, and the story on the siege of Terra has Horus realizing they are _hours_ away from arriving, when he needed _days_ to break through the final defenses.

At the very best, the Lion could not have claimed any more glory than Russ. And even then, try telling Sanguinius (who broke a greater daemon at the gates of the Palace), Khan (who bought the Imperium the time it needed by capturing that one starport) or Dorn (who built and organized the defenses, and held the walls against Chaos) that showing up in the last second somehow trumped their accomplishments. :grin:



> Afterall, Guilliman had his own empire to control.


No, that really doesn't play a factor. After the Heresy, Guilliman gave up all his power to push through the Codex and act as a High Lord of Terra. The Emperor giving him the title of Warmaster would have only enhanced his ongoing role in the Great Crusade, not removed him from his duties. Same with Horus, it's not like he gave up on his own campaigns while ordering about his brothers.



> The thing though, and I know GW didn't really think about the fluff before using the "fence sitter" theory, is to try and figure out how GW and the Heresy Team could go about this business if they ever decided to go this route (which they probably wont). But non the less, I still think it is possible.


The only way it would work out is if the writing team retconned established fluff (the Lion and Russ racing back together) and had the Lion changing his mind after Isstvan V. It's really not anything GW has to worry about. On the one hand, they have numerous Codices and other sources of fluff that have people other than the Dark Angels disproving the "fence-sitter" bit by acting as witnesses to their actual deeds. On the other, you have Astellan, who at no point provides proof for his assertions (I'm not making this up; Astellan provides an accusation, Boreas calls him on it, and then Astellan--without providing any proof--launches into another accusation, as if each successive one somehow validates the previous one... and even though there's still no proof).



> More or less, he probably would have made it appear like he was late to Terra and that he had been preoccupied with the Horus' threat from a distance. Just like most of us think.


It "most of us think" that way, then most of us are ignoring or forgetting the fact that it's pretty well stated where the Lion was during the Heresy. :grin:

If the Lion did not arrive with Russ, he'd need to be kept somewhere--like Guilliman was. If they did retcon the fluff and the Lion only fought the Night Lords (I think it's been said they will in an upcoming short story, at least), then that would be something. But that's not fence-sitting. If he was fence-sitting, people would question his role. What could keep him occupied? Fighting a Legion? Saving worlds from civil war? All these things would need some sort of verification. Showing up with pretty much your whole fighting strength would seem mighty suspicious.

Sorry if I came off as cool or rude. I'm kind of in a rush! 

Cheers,
P.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I definitely don't see the Lion as a traitor. Arrogant? Sure. Opportunist (wants to be warmaster after the heresy)? Sure. Traitor? I think his actions in _Fallen Angels_ speak for themselves. 

The Lion's problem was the fact that he struggled to read people and had issues distinguishing between who he could trust and who he couldn't. We see in _Fallen Angels_ that some of his astartes are better judges of character than he is.

I think the whole 'betrayal' thing stems from the fact that the Lion left a bunch of his warriors to sit on their asses on Caliban while he went on to glory by winning campaign after campaign. I think this caused a lot of resentment towards the Lion. Also, the people of Caliban seemed to blame him for how the Imperium basically just swooped in and butchered all their resources and turn the planet into a shithole.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Dorn's reaction to Garro's news about Horus: send seven Legions to beat up on Horus, while he returned to Terra to continue with defensive fortifications. Textbook, reasonable, solid.
> 
> Lion's reaction to the same: "I'm going to counter Horus' end-game before he even gets to it."


Thats a bit skeptical. Sure it seems like that given you think he wasn't a fence sitter. But I'm looking at it from both perspectives. Its a logical thing to think if indeed he wasn't a "fence sitter." But if he was, then he wouldn't be thinking that.




> Desperate? I don't see your reasoning. He didn't obtain them for Perturabo. He obtained them to end the Heresy before it even got going. Perturabo was going to Isstvan V. Horus was dug in on Isstvan V. Perturabo was a siege master. The Lion had the most potent siege weapons in the Galaxy. Ergo...


Thats considering the loyalists knew where Horus and his legions were entrenched before the battle begun. I don't think you can determine that. And no matter how you put it, they are weapons. If Perturabo had looked like the genius that blew the traitors out of the trenches, it doesn't really make the Lion look like the Hero. Unless he believed the bitter, jealous, selfish Perturabo would have just ranted about claiming he wouldn't have been able to do it without the Lion. If anything, the Lion would have done it himself and looked like the hero... if of course, they all knew the traitors were entrenched. 




> I would say he was solidifying his position. Obviously the Emperor would choose, and then, just as before, X number of Primarchs would probably belly-ache. Perturabo being one of the ones to notably do so the last time around, having him on his side would go a long way toward quashing the B.S.


The Lion would need a bigger piece of candy then just Perturabo's approval to solidify that position. 



> The consistent theme boils down to military victories, being by the Emperor the longest, and "being the brightest"... without the latter being qualified very well. Ultimately, what it boils down is that Horus had been around the longest, had the most fame, and didn't have any knocks against him. It's not like anyone could argue against him because "he has implants that make him a berserker!" or "he's a psychopath!" or "he has fangs and fur!" or whatever. The best they could come up with was "I'm almost as good as he is!"


Definitley plays a role. But even if some of the legions that were not as liked, like the Night Lords and World Eaters had racked up the same number of victories, I highly doubt they would ever be the top of the list for their Primarch's being Warmaster. Of course the Lion beats him in every sense to those legions. But then again, you probably have some more favored primarchs than him.


No he's not. Where do you get this from? Outside of Astelan, there's no source of this. Why, because he didn't tell his Legion that Luther almost let him get assassinated? Compare this to Horus, in "Horus Rising" dropping a bomb on Loken like "by the way, did you know the powers of the Warp can possess anyone, anywhere, given the right circumstances?" Or what about another whopper: "Let's not ever tell anyone about our two missing brothers..." :shok:

Lol. I liked the shocked face. Skeptisism. I mean 99% of this debate about the Lion being a fence sitter is based on that. And the thing is, much of what the Lion was doing during the Siege on terra is vague at the very most. His secret personality stems from his paranoia. All the tainted books from the knights he kept for himself. He pretty much banished his most veteran warriors from the crusade. No clear explanation towards any of these reasons. Why didn't he and his legion go to Istvaan? Why didn't he just take all the glory. He would have looked like a Hero. Pretty much an easy win, considering you have 7 legions by you and you have some pretty siege weapons you can use instead of letting Perturabo take all the beautiful credit from the battle. 



> Irrelevant, since Sanguinius didn't even want the title, right?...


It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again. Sanguinius does what its told. Even if he's a beautiful angel. Just like the Golden Primarch. In _Horus Rising_ they weren't to excited about being the Pretorians of Terra. Well to bad, send me a post card.



> In no way could this have happened. He was coming with Russ, and the story on the siege of Terra has Horus realizing they are _hours_ away from arriving, when he needed _days_ to break through the final defenses.


I question the source. Not you, I question how reliable this is, especially since this is the first time its been brought up. Whenever you have the time of course. You sound busy. 



> At the very best, the Lion could not have claimed any more glory than Russ. And even then, try telling Sanguinius (who broke a greater daemon at the gates of the Palace), Khan (who bought the Imperium the time it needed by capturing that one starport) or Dorn (who built and organized the defenses, and held the walls against Chaos) that showing up in the last second somehow trumped their accomplishments. :grin:


No but then again, Russ went out on his own crusade to destroy the traitors. The Lion, or at least it seems would have been more logical. And especially with a legion more intact, he's more useful to the Imperium. If indeed he was coming to Terra with Russ. And its the same with the other Legions. Again, Khan, Vulkan, and Dorn all went haywire and chased enemies all over the galaxy after the siege. Thats ultimately why Guilliman was seen as the savior of the Imperium. The only thing preventing the Lion from kind of being that better legion comparribly to the others was that incident in Caliban where half of them betrayed the Lion.

At that state in the Imperium, (all those examples of the great deeds done by those primarchs and legions) weren't celebrated to the extent they should have been because they still had much to do with the traitors. Thus Guilliman came in with the calvary despite only facing a fraction of the Word Bearers force during the Heresy. Same could have been done with the Lion.




> No, that really doesn't play a factor. After the Heresy, Guilliman gave up all his power to push through the Codex and act as a High Lord of Terra. The Emperor giving him the title of Warmaster would have only enhanced his ongoing role in the Great Crusade, not removed him from his duties. Same with Horus, it's not like he gave up on his own campaigns while ordering about his brothers.


The thing is having another intact legion and primarch would have definitely helped. The codex thing is a different matter. We can't really know how the Lion would have reacted to it. But the thing is Guilliman and the Ultramarines sacrificed a lot compared to most legions during the scouring. 

To the rest of your post, (I'm to tired to quote the bits and bits and explain) I'll say it again, there is no hard evidence to suggest the Lion could have been a "fence sitter." But it definitely is an idea that GW has put out there. And we have seen several differences made through the heresy.

Nice debaten, and no problem. You sounded cool, don't worry.:yahoo:
But you didn't sound rude... just tired... like me. :lazy2:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I guess the conspiracy theory is that Lion betrayed the Imperium and Luther was loyal...the secret of Luther's betrayal is actually a "false secret" to cover the "real secret" that Lion was the traitor

but if Luther and the Lion actually engaged in a titanic duel, how could Luther have put up a fight without the help of Chaos?


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## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

Sounds like we need a sequel to Fallen Angels, to once and for all settle the story about the Lion.

Me, I've been a dark angel fan from the beginning and am REALLY interested what happened on caliban.

My thoughts about the Lion;
He wasn't a traitor and also not a fence-sitter. He was more of a victim of the prevailing circumstances.
His story is one of lonelyness because he might be one of the brightest minds the imperium has ever known, but unable to share his grievances/discomforts. His experiences in the dark forest of Caliban has made an everlasting impression. Meeting the watchers in the dark (who knows what they are? Chaos?) is an interesting one and certainly explains why the Lion thinks he should keep certain things to himself.

When he finally meets the emperor, he is made leader of the first legion. THE FIRST LEGION, wow, that must say something about what the emperor thought about him. This is actually all the more confusing since Horus got the 16th legion and he was made Warmaster.

I think, the whole Luther situation was just a result of hurt pride and how lesser men(and yes, also Astartes) can succumb to such temptations. Honour is one of the most important factors within the dark angels chapter and the honour of Luther and Astelan was blemished, which led to the catastrophic events on Caliban.

ah well, my 2 cents :so_happy:


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

RudeAwakening79 said:


> When he finally meets the emperor, he is made leader of the first legion. THE FIRST LEGION, wow, that must say something about what the emperor thought about him.


Not really, they were his gene sons, giving him any other Legion just wouldnt have worked.
I doubt the Emperor put any significance to it


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Spoiler for First Heretic



Well in "The First Heretic" is explains that Lion'el was intended to be one of the 9 heretic primarchs as shown in the scene where Argel Tal sees the 9 pods carrying the primarchs fall onto the different home worlds, so if Lion'el was indeed planned to be a traitor by the chaos gods then he was purposely chosen to land on Caliban by the gods, most probably because the world had a chaos taint (such as the beasts).


I just think there isnt enough solid evidence or information to truly know Lion'el Johnson's actions/decisions near the end of the Horus Heresy, just like there isnt enough information to truly know whether Alpharius/Omegon sided with Horus because of chaos of for the greater good.


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## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

Kickback said:


> Not really, they were his gene sons, giving him any other Legion just wouldnt have worked.
> I doubt the Emperor put any significance to it


Precisely, the first legion are his gene-sons so he is the "First Primarch" sort of speak... I'm sure the emperor would have tried to do it right the first time round when he was creating the primarchs. He wouldn't have thought: "OK, well let's try this first subject and see how it goes from here...and make some corrections later on", when he made his first primarch (the Lion).

I know my theory is flawed, because Horus was number 16 created...and became the most beloved of all, but as discussed earlier in this topic maybe it was because he was found first. Maybe this was done intentionally by the chaos gods, by letting him turn up closest to Terra and therefore being rediscovered first by the Emperor.
....And maybe the Lion was flung out to a far corner of the galaxy intentionally by the chaos gods, because they thought his hostile environment (caliban) would have more time to lure him to chaos. I think that because the Lion was one of the greatest Primarchs, he was the only one (of the other 9) able to resist Chaos and the plan of the gods failed.
What if the Lion was found first? Big possibility that he would have been warmaster...me thinks anyway 
After failing to lure the Lion to Chaos, the gods got hold of his second man to get even with him, thus creating the revolt that tore the Dark Angels Chapter apart.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ADB himself has said he put that in there to show that despite the gods planning, the Lion still remained loyal.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I think your looking far too much into the First Legion thing. There is no evidence to suggest the Emperor made the primarchs in a particular order, infact most evidence supports that he made them all at the same time, hence why they were all at the same stage of development when they were snatched away. I'm of the opinion that the emperor simply labeled the pods 1-20 as seen in the HH series, just to designate them apart as you would expect, then the numbering simply followed onto the legions when he created them. It doesn't make sense for him to create the legions in order aswell, seeing as Horus was found first yet had his legion ready for him despite them being the XVI Legion. 

I would contribute more to the Lion being a loyalist but it's a pain from my phone and the laptop keyboards fucked (sigh). All my views on it echo the ones listed my Phobeus, as from other similar threads I've seen we are of the same opinion regarding Jonson.

Jonson is listed in numerous sources as having broken the Siege aswell. More recently in Collected Visions(which at no point even hints the Lion is anything but loyal) and also in the very first bit of fluff for the Siege in the short story William King wrote about it, which is pretty much where it all stems from originally actually.


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

RudeAwakening79 said:


> Precisely, the first legion are his gene-sons so he is the "First Primarch" sort of speak... I'm sure the emperor would have tried to do it right the first time round when he was creating the primarchs. He wouldn't have thought: "OK, well let's try this first subject and see how it goes from here...and make some corrections later on", when he made his first primarch (the Lion).
> 
> I know my theory is flawed, because Horus was number 16 created...and became the most beloved of all, but as discussed earlier in this topic maybe it was because he was found first. Maybe this was done intentionally by the chaos gods, by letting him turn up closest to Terra and therefore being rediscovered first by the Emperor.
> ....And maybe the Lion was flung out to a far corner of the galaxy intentionally by the chaos gods, because they thought his hostile environment (caliban) would have more time to lure him to chaos. I think that because the Lion was one of the greatest Primarchs, he was the only one (of the other 9) able to resist Chaos and the plan of the gods failed.
> ...


I'm really agree with you. They really say so many times that he is probably the best strategist. His only problem is the relation with the other humans and thats probably the blame of fall in the middle of the forest of caliban. And after read the Heresy books i really think he is loyal and of course the corrupted are the caliban people. 

Tot Ziens


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> The Lion's problem was the fact that he struggled to read people and had issues distinguishing between who he could trust and who he couldn't. We see in _Fallen Angels_ that some of his astartes are better judges of character than he is.


I think people read waaaaay too much into Nemiel's thought process. Allow me to explain:

Wait, first, allow me to warn: huge wall of text to follow. :biggrin:

Now, allow me to explain:

Before we get into what Nemiel thinks of the Lion's ability (or inability) to "read people", we need to be aware of the context of the situation.



> *"Fallen Angels", pg. 27 (e-book):*
> _... the magnitude of his actions cannot be overstated. News of the rebellion has spread like a cancer through the sector and beyond,’ Jonson said, ‘re-igniting old tensions and territorial ambitions. Some governors have openly declared for Horus, while others see the rebellion as an opportunity to build petty empires of their own. ...’
> Jonson paused, studying the pattern of unrest represented on the map as though it held secrets that only he could see. ‘It’s likely that agents loyal to the Warmaster are operating all across both Segmenta, helping fuel the growing dissent.'_


So, right off the bat, the Lion states the obvious (rebels declaring for Horus) and the highly likely (other agents and rebels working in secret). Given this, the Lion's refusal to take two complete strangers (Governor Kulik and Magos Archoi, or, at any rate, their loyalty) at face value is hardly unwarranted. Remember, he is far from his Legion, with a small cadre of Astartes and a negligible force of local defenders, and is facing certain retaliation from Horus' armies (he even mentions this to Kulik, Archoi, and, separately, Nemiel later on).

Nemiel's views on the matter, on the other hand, strike me as either poorly written or as if he himself either hasn't made up his mind yet... or is too badly shaken to have processed the whole situation. Let's see his mindset:



> *"FA", pg. 26 (e-book):*
> _Nemiel scarcely heard them. He felt only the rushing of blood in his temples and the awful coldness that seemed to spread like a wound through his chest. The primarch’s words echoed in his mind, but they didn’t make any sense. They couldn’t make sense. His mind refused to accept them._





> *"FA", pg. 130 (e-book):*
> _The cynical tone in the governor’s voice shocked Nemiel. ...
> Kulik acted as though Jonson was as much of a danger as Horus – and why not, Nemiel thought? Four Legions had already cast off their ties to the Emperor, and the entire Segmentum was coming apart at the seams. Everyone’s motives were suspect. The realisation left him cold._





> *"FA", pg. 134 (e-book):*
> _Jonson nodded to himself, and Nemiel saw that he seemed actually relieved by the observation. Could the primarch actually have a difficult time reading someone as forthright as Kulik? Was this the same individual who united all of Caliban in a crusade against the great beasts?_


Do you see what I mean? Even if we ignore the first quote for being focused more on emotional overtones than Nemiel's actual thought process, the second two present a man unable to properly reconcile with the situation. He realizes how the situation might affect a man like Kulik, but barely minutes later he has trouble reconciling with the idea that the reverse might also be true. And really, when you think about it, how big a deal is it for the Lion to question whether a "mere mortal" might fold if forced to face down Astartes?

Consider, if you will, the recurring instances of the emotional and intellectual distance between Astartes and normal humans. Think of Mersadie Oliton's interview with Garviel Loken in "Horus Rising", for instance. Or think about his encounter with Jubal, and how he struggles to contemplate how a "mortal" might feel fear. With that context in mind, is it that far a reach for a Primarch to wonder whether a mere man might stand up to an Astartes?

Or, if you wish, consider the opposite extreme. Is it that big a deal for a Primarch to be imperfect in his dealings with others? To be helped by another person with his relations, communications, etc.? To not have all the answers? Think on Horus' revelations that, upon becoming Warmaster, "[guided], it was likely, by Maloghurst’s shrewd hand, Horus had courted his brothers, stilling fears, calming doubts, reaffirming pacts and generally securing their cooperation." Or how about the notion that Maloghurst protects Horus "politically, guiding and advising, blocking and out-playing, aware and perfectly sensitive to every nuance and current in the expedition’s hierarchy"?

There's nothing wrong with this, is there? Should Loken be fretting that Horus of all Primarchs needed a cunning, devious Astartes as his advisor and/or political consultant? I don't think so. I think it's perfectly fine that this is the case. I also think that Nemiel is simply out of his league. He reminds me of Loken in "Horus Rising", when Aximand tells him that, given enough time, he'll get used to dealing with their Primarch.

Primarchs aren't perfect. They're superhuman geniuses, but they're not perfect. The problem is that Astartes tend to idealize Primarchs. That's Nemiel's problem--his idealization of the Lion doesn't reconcile with reality. The Lion doesn't have a problem with "reading people"--at least not anymore so than other Primarchs. The problem is the Nemiel is simply not used to a Primarch not having the answer to everything.

Heck, Nemiel doesn't even have a very good grasp on his history--although you can't really fault him for not being up-and-up on things that happened before he was an adult:



> *"FA", pg. 134 (e-book):*
> _But then it hit Nemiel; Jonson hadn’t united Caliban. The plan was his but the person who convinced the knightly orders and the noble families to put aside their ancient traditions and unite under Jonson’s banner was Luther. It had been his oratorial skills, his personal charisma and sense of diplomacy, and above all his keen insight into human nature that had allowed him to forge the grand alliance that had changed the face of Caliban._





> *"Descent of Angels", pg. 10 (e-book):*
> _His achievements were legendary, and coupled with a natural talent to inspire intense devotion in others, his presence soon led to a marked upsurge in recruitment.
> ...
> In the end, Jonson carried the day. His supporters argued that the people of Caliban had skulked for too long behind the walls of their settlements. They had lived too much in fear of the beasts. Man was made to have dominion over the wilderness, they said, not vice versa. It was time to restore the world to balance, to end the reign of the beasts and give mankind dominion over the forests.
> ...


Mind you, the "DoA" portion comes from a speaker who actively wishes to convince the reader that Luther was not a bad man, and that he was the only individual who could hope to match the Lion 



> *"FA", pgs. 134-135 (e-book):*
> _Jonson, by contrast, had spent his early years alone, living like an animal in the depths of the Northwilds, one of the most forbidding and inaccessible wildernesses on the planet. He didn’t say a word for the first few months at Aldurukh, ..._





> *"DoA", pg. 9 (e-book):*
> _He quickly assimilated human ways, learning the habit of speech within a matter of days._





> *"FA", pg. 135 (e-book):*
> _... and was always considered cold and aloof even in later years._





> *"DoA", pgs. 115, 117 (e-book):*
> _‘No, you have me there,’ Luther said. ‘My brother is a man alone. ... It is not that he lacks a sense of humour. If anything, the reverse is true. You must remember that he is as much a genius as he is a great warrior. His mind is a subtle and complex instrument, and his humour is shaped by the same brilliance he exhibits in everything else he does. When my brother makes jokes, no one understands them. He tends to pitch them too high for us roughhouse types. They go over our heads.
> ...
> Even surrounded by friends and followers on all sides, my brother is still lonely. There is no one on Caliban like him. He is the loneliest man in the world._


Sadly, Nemiel's eyes were never opened to what the Lion was really like. Never truly close to him, he initially held him up in the typical cult of personality that most Astartes use for their Primarchs. When his world was dashed apart by the events of the Heresy, he was at first unable to reconcile with what was happening and then shocked to find out his idol wasn't perfect.

Finally, it should be noted that Nemiel is confusing inability with a simple matter of asking for a second opinion. True, the Lion asks him what he thinks of both Kulik and Archoi, but we should never forget that this is after he makes his own call on what their course of action will be.

A final parting shot to make Nemiel's second-guessing of the Lion's questions even more suspect?



> *"FA", pg. 135 (e-book):*
> _"... Archoi and Governor Kulik have already suffered a great deal at the hands of Horus’s men. No one knows whom to trust anymore."_


That's right, Nemiel. Unless you happen to be a Primarch. :grin:

Cheers,
P.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Thats a bit skeptical. Sure it seems like that given you think he wasn't a fence sitter. But I'm looking at it from both perspectives. Its a logical thing to think if indeed he wasn't a "fence sitter." But if he was, then he wouldn't be thinking that.


I just don't get this, though. _How can you be a fence-sitter if you're the first to act?!?_ :grin:



> Thats considering the loyalists knew where Horus and his legions were entrenched before the battle begun. I don't think you can determine that.


First, the very fact that the Lion gives said weapons to the Primarch known to specialize in sieges indicates that they certainly expected him to be. Second, the fact that the Lion gets Perturabo to promise he'll use them on Horus indicates they expect Horus to be entrenched. Finally, it just kind of makes sense. Given the weapons and capabilities available in that far future, two types of battle could be expected: space warfare or a battle involving fortifications. Or both. Given that the first thing the Traitors did was _build a fortress,_ I don't see why it's a reach that their Loyalist counterparts would prepare for a siege as well.

But let's see what the Lion had to say about it before striking out for Diamat and the siege weapons:
"Even so, a strike force of seven full Legions poses a dire threat to Horus’s survival; surviving a planetary siege from such a force, let alone defeating it, will require transforming Isstvan V into a veritable fortress world."

Again, he realized what Horus' necessary endstate was, took from him the weapons he needed to reach it, and then gave them to the siege master who was tasked with cracking the Warmaster's proverbial nut... errrr... fortress. :grin:



> If Perturabo had looked like the genius that blew the traitors out of the trenches, it doesn't really make the Lion look like the Hero.


Sure it does. Perturabo would have been one of seven Primarchs who defeated an outnumbered force. The Lion would have been the one to demonstrate true strategic genius, engage in a lightning-quick campaign while facing greater enemy odds, and finally would have brought the weapons needed to defeat the enemy with a minimum of losses.



> The Lion would need a bigger piece of candy then just Perturabo's approval to solidify that position.


Again, in the absence of a clear favorite, it's not likely that the Primarchs would easily come forth to support another from their number. Given that Perturabo had been so intransigent to accepting a Warmaster last time, his vote (and reversal of opinion) would certainly have counted for something. 

And then, consider the politics of the situation. Aside from the Lion, the Primarchs with the most pull to become the next Warmaster would have been Guilliman, Dorn and Sanguinius.

But Lorgar would never accept Guilliman, and neither would Alpharius; both could likely be counted on to support the Lion to prevent that from happening. Furthermore, Guilliman would not have been involved in the fighting that decided the Heresy. Would the other Primarchs pitch for him?

Curze would never support Dorn, and thus his vote could be counted on for the Lion in that case as well. Moreover, he, too, would not have taken part in the fighting... and the Emperor had already called on him to return to Terra to fortify his palace. Given the shocking nature of Horus' betrayal, it's unlikely that plan would fall by the wayside. If anything, non-Astartes would clamor for the Emperor to be better protected.

Sanguinius, the only other Primarch who could have unified the rest behind him, had already demonstrated his unwillingness to take up such power.

Additionally, we have Russ' friendship with the Lion to take into consideration. Together with Perturabo and as many as 1-2 other Primarchs (and that's assuming none other come to his side following his demonstration of strategic ability and personal courage), that's a formidable coalition.



> His secret personality stems from his paranoia. All the tainted books from the knights he kept for himself.


No he didn't. He left them on Caliban with Cypher. This doesn't add up to paranoia. Had he been paranoid and worried about said books, he would have never trusted another person with them.



> He pretty much banished his most veteran warriors from the crusade.


No he didn't... he sent back five hundred Astartes, after their very first campaign--with the exception of Israhafel, they were all Calibanite, remember? Calling them veteran is a stretch, I think. :grin:



> No clear explanation towards any of these reasons. Why didn't he and his legion go to Istvaan?


It's already explained. His Legion was scattered throughout the Shield Worlds. It would have taken too long to get them together and get to Isstvan V in time. Remember "Wolf at the Door" in 'Tales of Heresy'? Russ gives them five months to get the Legion together and rendezvous with him to take out Magnus. Jurgen makes a point about what a big deal this is.

Then, see "Fallen Angels": the Lion informs his strategium that seven Legions are _already enroute_ to take out Horus, and that it will take them four to six months to get to Isstvan V. The Lion doesn't even have his Legion together. Judging from "Wolf at the Door", it would take him just that amount of time to get his Legion back together.



> It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again. Sanguinius does what its told. Even if he's a beautiful angel. Just like the Golden Primarch. In _Horus Rising_ they weren't to excited about being the Pretorians of Terra. Well to bad, send me a post card.


Good one!!! :biggrin:

Yes, you have a point here. But it really comes down to qualifications. Horus thought Sanguinius was a great guy, but guess what... the conversation always comes back to who was the best general. And, frankly, the fact that the Lion was #3 in victories after only fifty years... and then demonstrated that kind of acumen... and then ALSO had 3-4 different Primarchs on his side...



> I question the source. Not you, I question how reliable this is, especially since this is the first time its been brought up. Whenever you have the time of course. You sound busy.


Who, the Space Wolves? Here you go...

From William King's short story on the Siege of Terra:


> _Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded. A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion El'Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break Humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed._


This story is reinforced by another short story that I don't have on me, but that I'm sure others can vouch for. It follows up on the "Lion and the Wolf" saga, and has the Lion expressing his rage at Russ for slowing them down on the way to Terra. Russ bears his chest to the Lion and tells him to strike him down if that is how he feels. Blinded by anger, the Lion stabs him, but pulls the stroke at the last second, puncturing only one of his hearts. When Russ recovers, the Lion begs for his forgiveness and the two re-affirm their brotherhood.



> No but then again, Russ went out on his own crusade to destroy the traitors. The Lion, or at least it seems would have been more logical. And especially with a legion more intact, he's more useful to the Imperium.


But that still doesn't reconcile with the timing, which has both the Lion and Russ racing to get to Terra. Besides, in the real time line, the Lion no longer had a reason to think he could show up in glory. It's not as if getting those siege weapons did any good for the Imperium. Given this, even if his Legion was intact, he could not hope to somehow salvage a promotion out of this--never mind rule of the entire Imperium. Guilliman would have had more troops, and every Primarch already at Terra would have had more clout.

As a side note, though, Vulkan's Legion was shattered and so was Corax's, so they weren't doing much of anything. The Khan actually supported Guilliman, which is mentioned in the "Ultramarines" novels (a statue of the White Scars Primarch is featured on Macragge in recognition of his friendship with Guilliman). Dorn didn't go hay-wire... he just disagreed with Guilliman over the prospect of dividing their Legions. Guilliman's legacy and reputation was built over the entirety of the Scouring and in the centuries following.



> Thus Guilliman came in with the calvary despite only facing a fraction of the Word Bearers force during the Heresy. Same could have been done with the Lion.


Not really, because it would have been a completely different situation, remember? Again, in the actual timeline, the Lion's daring and strategic acumen was for nothing, the Traitors almost won, the Emperor was entombed, and the impact of the Heresy was such that Guilliman felt the need to divide all the Legions.

If for whatever silly reason Alpharius, Curze, Lorgar, and Perturabo hadn't gone traitor, though, none of the conditions needed for Guilliman to be so beloved would have come to pass. The Lion would have enjoyed the most support of any single Primarch (except for Sanguinius, possibly) and would have had demonstrated his value both in terms of combat wins (second only to Dorn, and in probably only half the time) an in terms of brilliance (effectively bringing down Horus).

As a side note, Guilliman did not face a fraction of the Word Bearers. He faced the bulk of them. There was only a fraction at Isstvan, IIRC.



> I'll say it again, there is no hard evidence to suggest the Lion could have been a "fence sitter." But it definitely is an idea that GW has put out there.


GW put out a Codex and several other pieces of fluff (including its most recent novel to feature the Legio I Primarch) that proved the Lion was neither a fence-sitter or a traitor. By contrast, Gav Thorpe wrote a novel where a genocidal murderer accuses the Lion of a number of things and never presents any proof. Gav himself then went on to write that Astellan's words could be deemed suspect, based on the fact that Chaos scooped him up after Caliban was destroyed. It's just so one-sided at this point that I don't see how they could double back and retcon so many things!

Cheers, man. Good debating with you, too! 

P.

EDIT: re-arranged and re-worded some responses for better clarity.


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## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

Master_Marius said:


> I'm really agree with you. They really say so many times that he is probably the best strategist. His only problem is the relation with the other humans and thats probably the blame of fall in the middle of the forest of caliban. And after read the Heresy books i really think he is loyal and of course the corrupted are the caliban people.
> 
> Tot Ziens


tot ziens, nice to see some dutch language here :victory:

As I've said, we need a sequel to Fallen Angels...to finally see what happened exactly.


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## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> I think your looking far too much into the First Legion thing. There is no evidence to suggest the Emperor made the primarchs in a particular order, infact most evidence supports that he made them all at the same time, hence why they were all at the same stage of development when they were snatched away. I'm of the opinion that the emperor simply labeled the pods 1-20 as seen in the HH series, just to designate them apart as you would expect, then the numbering simply followed onto the legions when he created them. It doesn't make sense for him to create the legions in order aswell, seeing as Horus was found first yet had his legion ready for him despite them being the XVI Legion.
> 
> 
> > This could very well be the case, it seems that way at least. I concur,The primarchs were made at the same time, as is written in the first heretic. All were made different, with each one containing a different aspect of the emperor. However, as the Dark Angels always pride themself "that they were the first"... or is that just arrogant behaviour from their part (they're known as such, I know).


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

Yea we really need a last book... I'm not sure how many they want for the collection. 

And yes I speak a little of Dutch...


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

RudeAwakening79 said:


> This could very well be the case, it seems that way at least. I concur,The primarchs were made at the same time, as is written in the first heretic. All were made different, with each one containing a different aspect of the emperor. However, as the Dark Angels always pride themself "that they were the first"... or is that just arrogant behaviour from their part (they're known as such, I know).


I wouldnt say arrogant, but the Astartes definatley put more stock into numbers than most


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

As much as I respect him tactically and analytically the Lion still has the dubious honour of being the only primarch to be disliked so much by a portion of his own troops that they mutinied. 

By this logic I think the Lion is at his weakest when handling people. All other primarchs command fierce loyalty, devotion and respect from their own troops and indeed many outsiders who they come across through charisma in one form or another. Whether it is the perfection of Sanguinious and Fulgrim or the awe and fear from Angron and Night Haunter the primarchs universally have a history of inspiring obediance from their troops.

Not the Lion. The Lion is lacking somewhere in this department. It may be he lacks the ability to read others. It may be that his judge of charachter is off. Or it may be that he has an inability to comprehend mortal emotion. It may be all of these reasons and more, there is certainly basis for them.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> As much as I respect him tactically and analytically the Lion still has the dubious honour of being the only primarch to be disliked so much by a portion of his own troops that they mutinied.


Yeah, I suppose you could say that the Lion had five hundred Astartes declare mutiny on him. But then you could say the same thing about Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Perturabo, and Mortarion as well.

Furthermore, it's a completely different situation. The renegade Dark Angels turned on the Lion after five decades of being separated from him and while under the command of a very charismatic individual who was bent on convincing them that (A) they had been abandoned and (B) the Emperor AND the Lion had plotted to see their world destroyed.



> By this logic I think the Lion is at his weakest when handling people. All other primarchs command fierce loyalty, devotion and respect from their own troops and indeed many outsiders who they come across through charisma in one form or another.


Except that "Descent of Angels" already qualified that the Lion possessed "a natural talent to inspire intense devotion in others" and was central in the Order growing by leaps and bounds and to its Crusade to cleanse Caliban. He's no different from other Primarchs; Nemiel is simply going through a "crisis of faith" in the middle of events that have turned his whole world upside-down.



> Not the Lion. The Lion is lacking somewhere in this department. It may be he lacks the ability to read others ...


See my first post on this page. It's Nemiel's opinion that this is the case, and it's quite the baseless one. He contradicts himself at least once or twice before arriving at said conclusion, and has a view of history (history that he didn't experience, btw) quite at odds with that of the record.

Cheers,
P.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Yeah, I suppose you could say that the Lion had five hundred Astartes declare mutiny on him. But then you could say the same thing about Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Perturabo, and Mortarion as well.


The purging of the loyalists doesn't really count as mutiny does it? It wasn't a mutiny it was a mass execution, they, as in the loyalists, were betrayed not the other way around. They didn't even get a chance to mutiny, they fought for survival sure but they didn’t mutiny. The loyalists weren't left with any choice and in fact it speaks volumes about the leadership and perceptiveness of the traitor legions' primarchs as they knew well enough who could and could not be swayed within the limited time frame and then comprehensively dealt with the loyalist elements within their legions. Unlike the Lion who failed to recognise the threat the soon to be fallen posed and put them far from where he could keep an eye on them. 

The Lion was given ample opportunity to convince his legion that their loyalty was to him at least unofficially during a lifetime on Caliban but later officially as commander in chief of the DA legion. And time also to convince his marines that they now owed their loyalty to the emperor as well. And yet still his marines mutinied and betrayed both him and the imperium. The traitor primarchs had a much shorter amount of time between Davin and Istvaan for a much greater task; to undo all their loyalty and ties to the imperium and betray the emperor. Some of these marines had by this time spent many many decades fighting for the emperor and the imperial cause. The traitor primarchs did very well, they still managed to sway the vast majority and even some of those who were killed may not have actually needed to be killed if Lucius is anything to go by. With more time the traitor primarchs may have been able to get the number of loyalists down. 

You are right though it is a completely different situation; what it boils down to is that in a world without the heresy, or pre-heresy, all other primarchs commanded absolute loyalty from their troops it was primarch before home world, the Lion did not. Additionally the only astartes that made a conscious decision to turn from their brother's, their primarch, and their emperor wore dark angels heraldry.



Phoebus said:


> Furthermore, it's a completely different situation. The renegade Dark Angels turned on the Lion after five decades of being separated from him and while under the command of a very charismatic individual who was bent on convincing them that (A) they had been abandoned and...


A bad decision from the Lion. Who abandons their troops in this way? He failed to comprehend the impact abandonment would have on his men and the consequences involved. But then again the same criticism could be levelled at the emperor so I fear you may have me there. :grin:

It is worth considering though that the DA can hardly be the only legion to garrison troops from time to time. But in any case I would argue that some of them were harbouring doubts and beginning to turn away much sooner. There were many of these outspoken naysayers within his legion long before they were marooned as well as assassination attempts that really should have got the Lion thinking.



Phoebus said:


> (B) the Emperor AND the Lion had plotted to see their world destroyed.


Every other primarch had to deal with divided loyalties between their inherited terran marines and that of the marines raised from their home world. They all overcame this and worked together with the possible exception of the Word Bearers. But more importantly Night Haunter destroyed his home world with the assistance of his legion and they didn't mutiny did they? 




Phoebus said:


> Except that "Descent of Angels" already qualified that the Lion possessed "a natural talent to inspire intense devotion in others" and was central in the Order growing by leaps and bounds and to its Crusade to cleanse Caliban. He's no different from other Primarchs; Nemiel is simply going through a "crisis of faith" in the middle of events that have turned his whole world upside-down.


I don't deny he possesses these attributes just that they're not as good as they could and should be and that he may be weaker in these areas than his brother primarchs.




Phoebus said:


> See my first post on this page. It's Nemiel's opinion that this is the case, and it's quite the baseless one. He contradicts himself at least once or twice before arriving at said conclusion, and has a view of history (history that he didn't experience, btw) quite at odds with that of the record.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


:goodpost: Oh I read it alright, very enlightening. I can honestly say I didn't pick up on that when I read the book myself. 

I'd be tempted to put such contradictions down to bad writing from Mike Lee but I'll give you and him the benefit of the doubt. In this case Nemiel is an unreliable character witness.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Additionally the only astartes that made a conscious decision to turn from their brother's, their primarch, and their emperor wore dark angels heraldry.


 
Not correct. Astartes within the Word Bearers and Death Guard also made the choice to turn. Both Kor Phareon, Erebus and possibly others within the legion turned long before the Heresy, followed willingly by the entire legion later on. And then Typhon had also long turned away from the Emperor and Mortarion, who knows how many others he turned within his company and the legion.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> It is worth considering though that the DA can hardly be the only legion to garrison troops from time to time. But in any case I would argue that some of them were harbouring doubts and beginning to turn away much sooner. There were many of these outspoken naysayers within his legion long before they were marooned as well as assassination attempts that really should have got the Lion thinking.


I don't think any that were left behind were doubtful at all, theres no indication of it in the books anyway(excluding Luther you might say)


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> The purging of the loyalists doesn't really count as mutiny does it? It wasn't a mutiny it was a mass execution, they, as in the loyalists, were betrayed not the other way around.


Well, you're right that it wasn't an outright mutiny for most of them (though the verdict remains to be seen in regards to the Iron Warriors). Having said that, though, I think "Galaxy in Flames", "Flight of the Eisenstein" and "Fulgrim" do a good job of illustrating how the Loyalists within the Traitor Legions got to directly see the evidence of their Primarchs turning and even before Isstvan III were highly suspicious of what was going on.

As the topic you brought up involves charisma, I think these are valid examples. If we can comment on the Lion's charisma on account of some Chaos-infused commander swaying them in his absence, I think we can comment on Loken, Torgaddon, Tarvitz, etc., re-thinking their loyalties.



> Unlike the Lion who failed to recognise the threat the soon to be fallen posed and put them far from where he could keep an eye on them.


We're talking about completely different situations here, though.

Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, and Mortarion were ditching baggage. At best they were betraying officers they had once been fond of. The Lion, on the other hand, was forced to covertly discipline his best friend. The Astartes following him were at best an obfuscation. Luther's fall was tragic. Had the taint in Caliban not returned, there's every indication he would have continued his service loyally.



> The Lion was given ample opportunity to convince his legion that their loyalty was to him at least unofficially during a lifetime on Caliban but later officially as commander in chief of the DA legion. And time also to convince his marines that they now owed their loyalty to the emperor as well. And yet still his marines mutinied and betrayed both him and the imperium.


I don't think this is a fair summary...

You have to factor in that the five hundred Astartes under Luther were almost all Calibanites and they had grown up with Luther as their second greatest hero. In the absence of the Lion, after five decades of uncomplaining service, this worthy shows them that their planet is tainted and uses his powerful oratory (and probably a touch of Chaos charm at this point) to convince them that the Primarch AND the Emperor himself are responsible for leaving their planet to be destroyed.

Really, the biggest mistake you can attribute to the Lion is that he didn't just get it over with and kill Luther when he did. Boom, punishment metted out, no one needs go back to Caliban. But that's just easy on paper. So many people talk about how the Lion can't deal with people, can't level with human emotions, etc... but that was his _best friend._ And you know what? At the end of the day Caliban would still have been corrupted. The insurgency would still have occurred. When the Lion returned, he probably still would have had to bomb Caliban to bits. He would not have been wounded into a coma by Luther, but there you go: paying for your own hubris.



> The traitor primarchs had a much shorter amount of time between Davin and Istvaan for a much greater task; to undo all their loyalty and ties to the imperium and betray the emperor. Some of these marines had by this time spent many many decades fighting for the emperor and the imperial cause. The traitor primarchs did very well, they still managed to sway the vast majority ...


Now hold on... This wasn't just the Primarchs. In fact, it wasn't even the Primarchs for the most part that were responsible for this. You're forgetting that the Lodge program was central to bringing the Traitor Legions around. The Lodges were instrumental in substituting loyalty to the Emperor and to Mankind with an internal brotherhood focused on the Legion and the Primarch. Add to it a healthy infusion of Chaotic influence from the Chaplains, and the Primarchs more or less had to simply exert their potent charisma and their gene-bred loyalty.



> ... and even some of those who were killed may not have actually needed to be killed if Lucius is anything to go by.


Lucius was the exception for that situation in that he was mistaken for being on the wrong side by virtue of his association with Tarvitz (with whom, ironically, he wasn't even very good friends). Just a side-note. 



> You are right though it is a completely different situation; what it boils down to is that in a world without the heresy, or pre-heresy, all other primarchs commanded absolute loyalty from their troops it was primarch before home world, the Lion did not.


He did. He was simply the only Primarch to have geographically dislocated troops under the influence of an individual who was (A) infused by Chaos and (B) already a cultural icon to them. Luther was like Kor Phaeron, Erebus, and Typhon all rolled into one... and was extremely well-liked to boot. You can't judge him on a situation that none of the other Primarchs were put through.



> It is worth considering though that the DA can hardly be the only legion to garrison troops from time to time.


Again, though, this was the only garrison to deal with this specific situation.



> But in any case I would argue that some of them were harbouring doubts and beginning to turn away much sooner. There were many of these outspoken naysayers within his legion long before they were marooned ...


Who were these naysayers? There's no evidence of doubts that I recall... There's every bit of evidence that for five decades the Astartes on Caliban busted their asses to achieve exemplary results for their Legion.



> ... as well as assassination attempts that really should have got the Lion thinking.


There was that assassination attempt by Luther, but I can't remember others. At any rate, you have my thoughts on his decision there, I think (earlier post?). 



> Every other primarch had to deal with divided loyalties between their inherited terran marines and that of the marines raised from their home world. They all overcame this and worked together with the possible exception of the Word Bearers.


No offense, but comparing the various Primarchs and their situations is a bit like apples and oranges. Again, there's not much point in comparing the Lion and Mortarion unless your scenario involves Typhon taking advantage of his Primarch's absence to start a mutiny (for example).



> But more importantly Night Haunter destroyed his home world with the assistance of his legion and they didn't mutiny did they?


Neither did the Dark Angels when they arrived on Caliban. Haunter specifically didn't have a problem with people objecting to blowing up Nostramo because, by that point, his Legion had been compromised by murderers, rapists, and psychopaths.



> I don't deny he possesses these attributes just that they're not as good as they could and should be and that he may be weaker in these areas than his brother primarchs.


I argue that the record never shows any such deficiencies*, and that, in fact, the Lion has been placed in a unique sort of spotlight. Firstly, because of the unique situation he is in (a Chaos-infused hero central to his Legion's culture and history turning and subverting the command he was trusted with), and, secondly, because of the amount of spotlight he has been exposed to.

Where the latter is concerned, I don't think you can pass a fair critique on the Lion's charisma until you get as much exposure with Corax, Dorn, Ferrus, Guilliman, Khan, Russ, Sanguinius, or Vulkan.

* And, again, I can't put enough emphasis on the fact that most of the so-called evidence for said deficiencies comes from an Astartes who has only been in service for fifty years and finds himself thrust into a central role in the midst of titanic events.



> I'd be tempted to put such contradictions down to bad writing from Mike Lee but I'll give you and him the benefit of the doubt. In this case Nemiel is an unreliable character witness.


I could understand it if you didn't. I try to put forth my points and arguments in a way where I don't discount the existing fluff. I'll be the first to admit, though, that--objectively speaking--authors are imperfect human beings and mistakes will happen on the basis of miscommunication, continuity editing, etc. 

Cheers, I appreciate your viewpoint!
P.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Not correct. Astartes within the Word Bearers and Death Guard also made the choice to turn. Both Kor Phareon, Erebus and possibly others within the legion turned long before the Heresy, followed willingly by the entire legion later on. And then Typhon had also long turned away from the Emperor and Mortarion, who knows how many others he turned within his company and the legion.


Good point! Their efforts trump Luther's, if anything. :biggrin:



> I don't think any that were left behind were doubtful at all, theres no indication of it in the books anyway(excluding Luther you might say)


Even Luther is cruising, loyal as can be, with the exception of suppressing information about the insurgency. It's not until things start getting Chaos-y (what a coincidence...) that he turns...


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

I think that the most important point of all of this, is that inside Caliban all was corrupted. And the watchers couldn't hang up that anymore. For that it was easy to get corrupted there and to become a traitor.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Apologies for not replying sooner, holidays got in the way. :smoke:



Angel of Blood said:


> Not correct. Astartes within the Word Bearers and Death Guard also made the choice to turn. Both Kor Phareon, Erebus and possibly others within the legion turned long before the Heresy, followed willingly by the entire legion later on. And then Typhon had also long turned away from the Emperor and Mortarion, who knows how many others he turned within his company and the legion.


My bad. I didn’t expand on that enough. Those that turned to chaos before their primarchs still never really mutinied to the extent that the Fallen did. The extent of their mutiny seems only to be expressing some radical beliefs and promoting brotherhood in the lodges. I don’t see what they did as betraying their primarchs. They betrayed some of the ideals of the emperor sure but they never broke away from their legion, they never displayed anything other than utter loyalty to their primarchs and never disobeyed an order from their primarchs because their primarchs never gave them any perceived justification to rebel. Would they have openly turned from the imperium without their primarchs backing? We’ll never know. Possibly but not definitely.

Do I blame the traitor legions primarchs for allowing their astartes to fall to a little known, barely understood ancient threat? No. Do I think the decisions made by the traitor legion primarchs alienated elements of their troops from them or could I place blame at their feet for encouraging a shift in loyalty from them? No. Do I think the Lion could have better galvanised his men against the anti-imperial elements and ideals of Caliban after an assassination attempt on the emperor and later after Luther’s attempt if he had a greater understanding of human nature? Yes. Do I think he made an unpopular and bad decision that caused a divide in loyalty amongst his men? Definitely. Do I think that would have been avoided if he was better able to read people? Probably but I take on board what Phoebus said about there being no easy decision here.

Additionally many of the traitor legions turned because they doubted the emperor’s suitability and legitimacy to rule the imperium and the race of man. Horus for one at least partly thought what he was doing was in the best interests of the imperium. The fallen’s reasons were much more selfish in that they felt betrayed by the Lion and wanted independence for their home world. 

So for these reasons I think the Fallen’s mutiny and the Lions role is dissimilar to the heretic’s case. I think the Lion might have had more of a role in his marines betraying him than the other heretic primarchs.



Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think any that were left behind were doubtful at all, theres no indication of it in the books anyway(excluding Luther you might say)


There is. They were all doubtful, disgruntled and disappointed. The decision to send them home began dividing loyalties before any question of significant taint in Caliban arose and certainly before Luther’s fall to chaos. Astelan for one put Luther ahead of the Lion when he was sent back evidenced by his “For Luther” oath an oath which was repeated by those surrounding him. So I think as soon as they were exiled they began doubting him. There is evidence too that some of the astartes may have harboured doubts earlier than this but I’ll come back to that later when addressing some of Phoebus’s points.

But even if they were 100% loyal well then in that case, and I’m not saying I subscribe to this line of reasoning, he discarded good and loyal marines and left them under the command of someone who is obviously untrustworthy and undeniably charismatic which is a horrible decision. The alternative is that he knowingly or ignorantly put all his rotten eggs in one (also rotten) basket which is similarly a terrible decision. Either way he certainly facilitated a divide in loyalties and even those DA that were already stationed on Caliban, Remiel, were hurt by the decision. He even stopped checking in on them and began delegating this responsibility. Jonson’s decision to ignore them is perhaps even worse than his decision to abandon them in the first place, Zahariel sums it up nicely by saying Jonson’s ignoring them would leave a scar that would never truly heal and instead would fester this even before any suggestion of taint or chaos has arisen. A better understanding of human nature might have prevented this.



Phoebus said:


> As the topic you brought up involves charisma, I think these are valid examples. If we can comment on the Lion's charisma on account of some Chaos-infused commander swaying them in his absence, I think we can comment on Loken, Torgaddon, Tarvitz, etc., re-thinking their loyalties.


My understanding of chaos was that there had to be some kind of ***** in the armour, some doubt or mistrust for chaos to exploit. Chaos doesn’t just make people renounce authority just like that. In the case of the Fallen they turned partly because they harboured doubts and reservations and were let down by the Lion. What I’m saying is that no other legion did. The purged loyalists didn’t turn on their primarchs (before they had to) and the “First Heretics” so to speak didn’t either. In any case most of the Fallen seem to have placed Caliban and Luther ahead of the Lion before Luther retreats to “meditate” and becomes infused with chaos.



Phoebus said:


> We're talking about completely different situations here, though.
> 
> Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, and Mortarion were ditching baggage. At best they were betraying officers they had once been fond of. The Lion, on the other hand, was forced to covertly discipline his best friend. The Astartes following him were at best an obfuscation. Luther's fall was tragic. Had the taint in Caliban not returned, there's every indication he would have continued his service loyally.


Again I think had Luther and the 500 marines had more faith in their primarch there’s also every indication that they would have continued their service loyally. I don’t blame the Fallen for not having faith I think the blame for that lies at the Lion’s feet. He alienated them, being ignorant of the impact that a decision can have on your troops is no excuse.



Phoebus said:


> I don't think this is a fair summary...
> 
> You have to factor in that the five hundred Astartes under Luther were almost all Calibanites and they had grown up with Luther as their second greatest hero. In the absence of the Lion, after five decades of uncomplaining service, this worthy shows them that their planet is tainted and uses his powerful oratory (and probably a touch of Chaos charm at this point) to convince them that the Primarch AND the Emperor himself are responsible for leaving their planet to be destroyed.
> 
> Really, the biggest mistake you can attribute to the Lion is that he didn't just get it over with and kill Luther when he did. Boom, punishment metted out, no one needs go back to Caliban. But that's just easy on paper. So many people talk about how the Lion can't deal with people, can't level with human emotions, etc... but that was his _best friend._ And you know what? At the end of the day Caliban would still have been corrupted. The insurgency would still have occurred. When the Lion returned, he probably still would have had to bomb Caliban to bits. He would not have been wounded into a coma by Luther, but there you go: paying for your own hubris.


Yes that’s very true. I’m not AS steadfast in my adversity towards the Lion and his role in the Fallen’s betrayal anymore.



Phoebus said:


> Now hold on... This wasn't just the Primarchs. In fact, it wasn't even the Primarchs for the most part that were responsible for this. You're forgetting that the Lodge program was central to bringing the Traitor Legions around. The Lodges were instrumental in substituting loyalty to the Emperor and to Mankind with an internal brotherhood focused on the Legion and the Primarch. Add to it a healthy infusion of Chaotic influence from the Chaplains, and the Primarchs more or less had to simply exert their potent charisma and their gene-bred loyalty.
> 
> He did. He was simply the only Primarch to have geographically dislocated troops under the influence of an individual who was (A) infused by Chaos and (B) already a cultural icon to them. Luther was like Kor Phaeron, Erebus, and Typhon all rolled into one... and was extremely well-liked to boot. You can't judge him on a situation that none of the other Primarchs were put through.


Judge not lest ye should be judged? If I was in court charged with a crime, my defence would not be to claim any one of my jurors would have done the same in my place. I wouldn’t be trying to justify my actions I’d be trying to prove that I never committed a crime. Had the other primarch’s been put through these situations, acted similarly and had the outcomes been like the DA’s I would be judging them exactly the same. I can’t say what the other primarchs would have done. If GW gives me reason to question them I will.



Phoebus said:


> Again, though, this was the only garrison to deal with this specific situation.


Like you say who are we to be the judge of that? I’ll be just as critical of the other primarchs if any similar doubts about the other primarchs ability arise.



Phoebus said:


> Who were these naysayers? There's no evidence of doubts that I recall... There's every bit of evidence that for five decades the Astartes on Caliban busted their asses to achieve exemplary results for their Legion.
> 
> There was that assassination attempt by Luther, but I can't remember others. At any rate, you have my thoughts on his decision there, I think (earlier post?).


Well the initial attempt on the Emperors life would have almost certainly killed the Lion too; they were using explosives after all. Nemiel says senior members of the Order (the Lion's Order that is) are involved. If Nemiel, Zahariel and senior members of the order are invited to be involved it’s only logical to assume a proportion of the future Calibanite astartes are privy to the plot. Whether it would have worked or not is irrelevant, the intent was there and they put Caliban’s interests ahead of their loyalty to el’Jonson and at this stage it wasn’t even Caliban’s existence or survival that was deemed more important than the Lion merely their way of life. They seemed very quick and willing to sacrifice their primarch. Admittedly he’s not technically their primarch yet but he is head of the order, “the saviour of Caliban” and a supposedly much revered person. 



Phoebus said:


> No offense, but comparing the various Primarchs and their situations is a bit like apples and oranges. Again, there's not much point in comparing the Lion and Mortarion unless your scenario involves Typhon taking advantage of his Primarch's absence to start a mutiny (for example).


None taken I see your point, and I realise I’ve been harsh towards the Lion and his legion's loyalty as well as his handling of the Fallen but I still have my doubts.



Phoebus said:


> Neither did the Dark Angels when they arrived on Caliban. Haunter specifically didn't have a problem with people objecting to blowing up Nostramo because, by that point, his Legion had been compromised by murderers, rapists, and psychopaths.


I don’t think they helped him blow up their home world because they were infiltrated by murderers, rapists and psychopaths (_Soul Hunter_, _Throne of Lies_ and _Lord of Night_ dispel such a view of them) I think they blew up their home world because they put their allegiance first and foremost in their primarch. In comparison the Fallen put their loyalty in their home world and Luther.



Phoebus said:


> I argue that the record never shows any such deficiencies*, and that, in fact, the Lion has been placed in a unique sort of spotlight. Firstly, because of the unique situation he is in (a Chaos-infused hero central to his Legion's culture and history turning and subverting the command he was trusted with), and, secondly, because of the amount of spotlight he has been exposed to.
> 
> Where the latter is concerned, I don't think you can pass a fair critique on the Lion's charisma until you get as much exposure with Corax, Dorn, Ferrus, Guilliman, Khan, Russ, Sanguinius, or Vulkan.


As I’ve said earlier I don’t think he would have been as “chaos-infused” if he wasn’t already doubtful and unhappy and I don’t think he would have been doubtful and unhappy if the Lion could read people better. 

I realise I might be getting side tracked and going about this the wrong way so I’d like to change tack a bit and move away from using the Fallen as evidence of the Lion’s deficiencies. The Fallen aren’t the sole basis for doubting the Lion and they’re not the most concrete example.



Phoebus said:


> * And, again, I can't put enough emphasis on the fact that most of the so-called evidence for said deficiencies comes from an Astartes who has only been in service for fifty years and finds himself thrust into a central role in the midst of titanic events.


That really doesn’t leave any of us with much wiggle room does it? So we can’t make any inferences about the Lions character because we can’t trust the source and there hasn’t been more perspective from the other characters in the story. It’s a bit like saying we can’t really trust what happened in _Prospero Burns_, _Legion_, or the parts of the other Heresy books that are told from remembrancers perspectives because they are told from the viewpoint of bit part players in the overall play. I don’t think this is true. Hawser for example is (conscious) in the Wolves service over a much shorter timeframe than Nemiel and finds himself thrust into a central role in the midst of titanic events yet we trust him. Why not Nemiel? 

When you think about it would any viewpoint in _Descent of Angels_ and _Fallen Angels_ be completely trustworthy? Had it been told from Luther’s or the Lions point of view we would only have had one side of the story. Had an ageing Calibanite who mightn’t have received the gene seed told the story then it could be accused of bias toward Luther. Had a Terran marine with no experience of Luther pre Caliban's imperial discovery told the story he could be biased toward the Lion. A remembrancer's point of view similarly wouldn’t have given us much insight either as they wouldn’t have witnessed any of the Lion’s and Luther’s success on Caliban and can’t be expected to be privy to the the inner workings of the legion. We have to make do with what we’ve got. 

Accordingly I think Nemiel and Zahariel being young but eventually senior and respected knights who had time to appreciate and revere both the Lion and Luther in their prime are probably the best sources available to us.

With this in mind I still can’t fully accept your take on the Nemiel, Archoi, Kulik and the Lion scene. No offence but I just think you may be reading into it too much. In light of what you have said about primarch’s not being perfect is it really out of the question to assume that Nemiel is right and that the Lion can’t read people that well? I’m going to be repeating parts of what you have said in earlier posts a bit here but there is a point to it.

Nemiel asks why the Lion could: 



> actually have a difficult time reading someone as forthright as Kulik - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 205.


The author goes to obvious lengths to portray Kulik’s mannerisms and body language as readable. 



> the governor’s hooded eyes suggested just the opposite - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 197.





> the set of his shoulders was tense - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 197.





> Kulik eyed Jonson warily - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 199.





> The cynical tone in the governor’s voice - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 199.





> Nemiel saw Kulik grind his teeth - _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 202


There are more in there and they all portray Kulik’s mood and attitude as being easily discerned in comparison to Archoi. Nemiel’s summary of Kulik proves to be bang on the money so wondering why Jonson needs help is a perfectly reasonable question. Why would the Lion ask Nemiel if there wasn’t a possibility that the Lion felt he could be wrong or was having trouble? It doesn’t strike me as one of the rare examples of the Lion just making conversation. Kulik’s character is openly broadcast in his body language, tone of voice and choice of words throughout the scene. With the governor’s character such an open book the Lion shouldn’t need to question his loyalty especially considering Kulik’s men are dying and he himself has taken wounds while fighting Horus’ forces. Nemiel doesn’t and he ends up being right. Incidentally this isn’t the only diplomatic meeting that doesn’t shower the Lion in glory he also gets the run around in the scene with the Saroshi delegates during _Descent of Angels_ and even loses his cool here when things don’t go the way he expected.

Next we have Nemiel’s concern and summation that the Lion is flawed and his reasons for thinking this. Despite your interpretation of it I must agree with Nemiel. Nemiel’s observation that Jonson didn’t unite Caliban is one that is shared by others including Jonson himself:



> “If it wasn’t for Luther and his fine oratory, I doubt the plan would ever have been approved” - the Lion – _Descent of Angels_ - pp.97.





> “Jonson could never have convinced the knightly orders to support his crusade against the beasts. You did that. The plan might have been his, but you were the one who rallied an entire world behind it” - Sar Daviel – _Fallen Angels_ - pp. 95.





> “He (the Lion) had forgotten that the plan would be carried out by individuals who did not share his own extraordinary mental and physical abilities” - unattributed - _Descent of Angels_ – pp. 15.





> In the end, Luther broached a compromise… – _Decent of Angels_ – pp. 102.


His observation that the Lion is cold and aloof is by his own admission a commonly held belief:



> There was a brooding sense of aloofness about the Lion that seemed more pronounced when he was seen from a distance – _Descent of Angels_ – pp. 167.





> “He (the Lion) is the loneliest man in the world” - Luther – _Descent of Angels_ – pp. 170.





> … and despite the growing aloofness the legion master had been displaying recently… - _Descent of Angels_ – pp. 384.


Questioning whether in fact Nemiel is able to read his primarch, is cowed by him or is paralysed with incomprehension and fear because of the situation he is in is pointless when you consider that by DA standards his 50 years mark him as a veteran. In addition in this scene as well as earlier and later scenes Nemiel also stands up to the primarch and questions his motives. Incidentally the Lion on both occasions miss-interpreted Nemiels questions and assumes Nemiel was accusing him of being a liar and a brigand. The Lion calls him a good interrogator and my opinion would be similar so I think his take on the scene and his opinions on the Lion can be expected to be of a decent quality. 

Nemiel speculates that due to his early years spent alone and an over reliance on Luther that the Lion never developed his interpersonal skills fully. I think Nemiel is perfectly entitled to reach the conclusion he did from the evidence he and the reader has. The Lions background and nature notwithstanding he is literally betrayed/deceived at almost every turn. First the Calibanites have a go at him and the Emperor. Then the Saroshi. Then Luther. Then Archoi. Then Luther again (this time with 500 now completely disillusioned marines not to mention the withheld new recruits) and finally then Perturabo. Don’t get me wrong I realise there are extenuating circumstances for much of this but damn I just can’t picture Horus being deceived this much. The two novels still show the Lion to be increasingly aloof, reliant on Luther (and later Nemiel) for diplomacy and perceptiveness, mistrustful, secretive and often duped. Who arranged the truce between the Order and the Knights of Lupus? Luther. Who united the rest of Caliban behind the Lion? Luther. Who is absent (or responsible) for all of the aforementioned miss-readings of character and betrayals? Luther. Furthermore once Luther is gone we have evidence of the Lion reaching out to Nemiel to fill the void left by Luther. 

The evidence is spread across two novels written by two different authors and is given from two different narratives who quote different characters so when considered objectively it’s pretty unbiased and conclusive and importantly it makes sense. I don’t know how anyone could read these two books and not be left with the impression that the Lion is prone to miss-reading people or why he is for that matter. 

Even outside of these two novels the Lion having problems with people seems to complement the fluff. His sucker punch on Russ could certainly be explained by him not understanding others, as well as to a lesser extent the earlier mentioned Russ bearing his chest event. Even some of Astelan’s encounters with (and opinion of) the Lion in fluff limbo’d Angels of Darkness hint at it. So (with your earlier fruit based idiom in mind) if the fluff gives me lemons… I’m going to assume the Lion can’t read people that well. 

The primarchs are not perfect beings some of their flaws are more obvious than others be it Angron’s rages, Lorgar’s faith, Fulgrim’s arrogance, Ferrus’s hot headedness or Horus’s pride so, and I can’t stress this enough, I really don’t feel the need for us to question the possibility of the Lion being aloof and the side effect of not being able to read people too well. I just don’t think the authors meant for us to take this so badly and fight it so much. Now if the primarchs had been portrayed as completely without fault then I would be as doubtful and critical of a potential flaw in the Lion as you are.

Does it really make sense that in a world of imperfect primarchs the Lion is flawless? 

Sorry for rambling.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Holy shit, that's probably the longest post I've ever seen. Will have to wait till I get my laptop back to comment on the whole post properly. Button the point most pertinent to me, Typhon I believe held Mortarion in disdain, he felt no true allegiance to him anymore and only served Nurgle, even leading his legion and primarch into damnation and eternal servitude to Nurgle.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Holy shit, that's probably the longest post I've ever seen. Will have to wait till I get my laptop back to comment on the whole post properly. Button the point most pertinent to me, Typhon I believe held Mortarion in disdain, he felt no true allegiance to him anymore and only served Nurgle, even leading his legion and primarch into damnation and eternal servitude to Nurgle.


It's about 3000 words. I've written shorter essays.:laugh: It took nearly three days to make but that included re-reading DoA and Fallen Angels to track down those quotes.

Yeah I acknowledge how critical I've been about the Lions role in the Fallen's betrayal but I think if he has shortcomings in reading people, which I still believe, we have to assume his action or inaction played a roll in their betrayal. Especially when you consider that many of the Fallen had begun to put their loyalty in Luther _before_ the imperial's cleared the forests and thus before chaos could exert much of it's influence.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I dont think he misinterpreted what Nemiel was asking either, Nemiel was basically asking the Lion if he was being a brigand and was planning to sack the forge, which he of course wasn't. 

The overriding thing for me though is that no other legion or primarch was put in that situation. It's completely unique, so we can't really judge him in that regard. Plus you have the likes of Garro, Temeter, Loken, Torgaddon, Tarvitz, Demeter, Varren, Ehrlen and at least one garrison of Iron Warriors were all absolutely loyal to the Emperor, first and foremost before their primarch. I do get what your saying, bit it's all situational, hell Perturabos homeworld completely rebelled against him, who knows if some of his astartes took part in the rebellion aswell


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I dont think he misinterpreted what Nemiel was asking either, Nemiel was basically asking the Lion if he was being a brigand and was planning to sack the forge, which he of course wasn't.


Nemiel was expressing curiosity as he at this point was deeply involved in the logistics of the skirmish and suspects the Lion knows something, not accusing the Lion of being a brigand. It's Nemiel's natural interrogator curiosity, he's not making any accusations of brigandry. It's a small example of a slip up by the Lion and not something I'm relying on overall.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

That was a pretty well thought out argument. 

I must say, I think its fair to question how the Primarch is able to get along with other people. He grew up in the tainted forests of Caliban, and learned about a lot of the crazy shit in the universe before anyone, perhaps even Magnus. And then he has his adopted father try to kill him. 

In a sense, the Lion is kind of messed up and not able to think very well because of these events. This could be why, though the many signs he cannot read people anymore. In fact, it could be another reason why the Lion trusted Perturabo pretty easy. Another Primarch who didn't trust his homeoworld.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I have a question, having read Angels of Darkness, and enjoying it emensley, the one thing I wonder is, what are the 'Secrets of the Dark Angels Revealed' if it isn't that the Lion was waiting to see which side came out of the Heresy flicking the vee's at the other?

Are there other previously unknown secrets about the Dark Angels in the book that this subtitle refers to? Or are the only 'secrets' the ones that Astellan says (thus making them true as they are revealed)?

I'm working on a Fallen objective for my mate's DA army, so want to make sure I've got it right before I start making him look a bit 'chaosy/tapped'.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Astelan is a traitor, pure and simple. Its shown as much in _Fallen Angels_.

As to the Lion 'sitting on the fence', this is shown to be false in the short story _Savage Weapons(Age of Darkness)_.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Astelan is a traitor, pure and simple. Its shown as much in _Fallen Angels_.
> 
> As to the Lion 'sitting on the fence', this is shown to be false in the short story _Savage Weapons(Age of Darkness)_.


I know all that (so they say), it's been discussed at length, but my question is this:

If the secrets revealed aren't what Astelan is going on about, what are the secrets that the book reveals?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think that's more a tagline than anything else.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Also _Angels of Darkness_ was released a couple of years before the HH series started so those probably are the secrets the tag line is referring to- which then cleared up with the current 30k books.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Also _Angels of Darkness_ was released a couple of years before the HH series started so those probably are the secrets the tag line is referring to- which then cleared up with the current 30k books.


So it's not actually their secrets, its just a traitor spouting bollocks?

How very disappointing...

'Angels of Darkness - Some Fallen's shit talking is revealed.'

So nothing is revealed then, making the book pointless. What a ball ache, I'll never get that part of my life back. I think I may burn the book to show my disdain for it...

edit: in fact, so far I've read three DA books and only the second HH book was any cop. Balls to the DA, first Legion, bollocks stories. They're getting cut out my reading list.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> So it's not actually their secrets, its just a traitor spouting bollocks?
> 
> How very disappointing...
> 
> ...


It's a decent enough read and when it was simply a standalone novel it was filled with awesome reveals, but obviously a few years down the line it's merely a piece of an ever largening puzzle.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Bah! I'm still backing them as traitors. I like the cut of Astelan's jib! :wink:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The Lion wanted to be the Warmaster for his father, not the Emperor. That was his primary ambition. Unlike Horus or Gulliman he didn't see himself as a ruler or heir to the kingdom. He thought he was the best suited for the leadership of all Imperial forces.He wanted to win the Heresy and put in his bid for the vacant slot to be the new warmaster. Read the novels and Age of Darkness. The betrayal the Fallen cite the Lion as being culpable to is within their legion. Like I said read the novels. The betrayal they speak of occurs on caliban with the knights of the Lion. I'm not going to do Spoilers here but if you read both DA novels you'll see that the betrayal they speak of the Lion committing is occuring well before Horus turns.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

which other novels are there? I've read the two HH books, age of Darkness and Angels of Darkness already (Angels oD being the last one I read) so I'm not quite following you.

From what Spikey was saying Angels story has been usurped by the HH books so that it's no longer true? 

You can spoiler it if you would, I've read them once but to be honest, I only remember the vagueness of the books! lol :biggrin:

edit: Ignore this, been reading up online so it's all good now!


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