# Space Marine HQs at 1500 points



## Devinstater (Dec 9, 2008)

This is something I've had trouble with in 5th because of the way tactical squads require a full ten men to get special or heavy weapons.

I find tactical marines in Rhinos for me are the only way to go due to the mobility and protective nature compared to a drop pod or on foot. But because I have ten marines, there is no room for the HQ in the Rhino. Previously in 4th at 1500 I would just run a 9 man squad in a Rhino with a the HQ unit attached.

The biggest problem I have is figuring out a way to get them rides. Land Raiders at 1500 are a blast and make room for the HQ, but I am loathe run them in a tourney because sooner or later you run into Tau or a melta heavy list and it's curtains.

Librarian's with Gate of Infinity and Terminators work well. 

Sternguard with a Rhino match well with HQ's and can be bought at various sizes so that you always have room for the HQ unit.

Master of the Forge can just sit back and shot with a conversion beamer.

You guys and gals probably have something figured out that I haven't thought of yet so please post how you like to group your HQ at the 1500 points level.


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## geenareeno (Jun 18, 2009)

Drop the HW.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Combat Squads. Split a 10-man up, keep five in and five out w/ the HW. Done and done.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Creon said:


> Combat Squads. Split a 10-man up, keep five in and five out w/ the HW. Done and done.


This.
And if you plan to do that most of the time, you can replace the Rhino with a Razorback 
A TL Heavy Bolter is pretty good, it can reliably cause a few wounds on infantry, and is a threat to light vehicles, which means they're forced to deal with it or alter their tactics, which can hurt them severely sometimes.


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## HighHubris (Mar 16, 2009)

yep those are pretty much your only solutions for the AV11 transports. personally if i got a character i want with a tactical squad, i wouldn't mind dropping the squad down to 9 since characters can make up for the loss of the weapons with their own, fists, combi weapons, power weapons, etc.


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## HighHubris (Mar 16, 2009)

you lose some efficiency, but you give your character 9 ablative wounds, a rhino, and extra firepower.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Ultimately splitting the squad up is great though, except in KP games (in which case it can just hurt you)
Get a Lascannon or Missile Launcher or something for the heavy, and a Meltagun or Flamer for the light (those are the two best choices for being mobile really)
Sit the heavy back, shooting at vehicles and such, and charge the light forward with any attached character, and they can do their damage from up close.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's actually well worth looking at HQs that don't need a transport. Other options do exist.

I've had some fun using Pedro with shooty termies. He can sit with them if the other guy is coming forward, dropping his orbital bombardment and bolstering the attacks of all my guys around my objective. A librarian could do the same thing, if given the right powers. 

Biker characters tend to be ignored but I did ok using a bike captain and scoring bikers. The extra toughness and mobile meltas were fun, though you are pretty vulnerable to lash, among other things. It's worth looking at.

A jump pack chaplain with assault squad could also work. They have a lot of the same problems as the bikes though, and would be vulnerable in a mech list.

Finally I've had good fun drop podding Lysander with a tactical squad. It's a bit random but tends to cause trouble for most people.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Biker characters tend to be ignored but I did ok using a bike captain and scoring bikers. The extra toughness and mobile meltas were fun, though you are pretty vulnerable to lash, among other things. It's worth looking at.


Bikes as Troops is a valuable asset, the ability to delay contesting an objective till the last second is a good option to have, and with the turbo-boost cover save, they're hard to kill while they're doing it!
And also if you have lots of guns pointed there, you have a decent chance of killing off the occupants so your bikes can take it.



Someguy said:


> A jump pack chaplain with assault squad could also work. They have a lot of the same problems as the bikes though, and would be vulnerable in a mech list.


They really are surprisingly powerful, give the Sergeant a Fist or Pwep, and you've got a very solid anti-MEQ assault force right there.

Give both guys Meltabombs as well, and they don't have any trouble with Mech 



Someguy said:


> Finally I've had good fun drop podding Lysander with a tactical squad. It's a bit random but tends to cause trouble for most people.


Works better with Sternguard, 20 special ammo shots that hit 8/9? Hell yeah!
Say goodbye Monstrous Creatures


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## Praxiss (Aug 13, 2009)

Marines:
I have Pedro in a drop pod with a 10 man squad of sternguard.

And a jump pack chaplain with an assault squad is very nice.



Chaos:
Even in 1500 point games i find a LR can be handy. I like to put my Termie Lord in a LR with 8 khorne berzerkers.


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## Devinstater (Dec 9, 2008)

A couple really good ideas here that I will try.

I never really considered just filling up a 9 man tac squad or so without all the extra weapons. Definitely going to try that in my next game.

Many of you mentioned dropping the HW into its own squad and putting the HQ in a Rhino or Razorback with the remaining five guys. I started out doing that, and I have just found that my other five guys always under perform for me. Either the opponant moves to get out of LoS from them or something I really don't want getting into CC with them gets into cc with them.

Praxxis: Yes, the LR has performed well, I am just trying out something different in fielding a lot of units, and 275 puts a lot of stuff on the table.

The Chaplain with Assault Marines was one of my first set ups after I ditched combat squadding. If you a running Assault Marines it's almost a gimme it works so well.

Good variety of ideas. Many thanks.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Devinstater said:


> Many of you mentioned dropping the HW into its own squad and putting the HQ in a Rhino or Razorback with the remaining five guys. I started out doing that, and I have just found that my other five guys always under perform for me. Either the opponant moves to get out of LoS from them or something I really don't want getting into CC with them gets into cc with them.


What weapon do you give them when you try that?

Any weapon you choose though, you should spend any turn in which you don't have a good target to shoot at moving up to get a better LOS or gain cover.
There's really not much to be gained from firing a Lascannon at infantry after all.

And about the getting charged, have you considered using Scouts as a shield?
If you give them Bolters or Sniper rifles, they're nice and cheap, and can still do some decent damage in shooting, but more importantly they're cheaper and just as good at CC.
If you keep the squad small then they might get shot to pieces before fulfilling their duty, if you have it too large and give them melee weapons they stand too good a chance of surviving in melee.
You want them to lose the combat and run, or die in combat, because then the enemy is out in the open and can be shot.
I suggest a 10 man squad with Bolters or Snipers (easily changed, chuck a scope on a Bolter and you're done) with a Heavy Bolter, that 2+ blast is a GREAT boon!

Alternatively you could just keep another Tactical squad nearby, ready to blast the newcomers to pieces.
Give them some long-range weapons, a Plasma gun, and a Missile launcher or Plasma cannon, that varies their role nicely, good against vehicles and infantry at decent range.
That way, if your heavy weapon squad gets charged by some nasty buggers, they get wiped out or volunteer to fall back, and the enemy gets blown to bits.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

At 1500 points your options are quite limited, as you want a useful HQ without sinking too many points into him (keep in mind that at 1500 points, a 150 point HQ is already 10% of your army). That said, I suggest a master of the forge with a conversion beamer sitting back with a squad of scouts and holding the home objective. At 120 points he is highly efficient, and can have a map-wide impact. Named characters, with the exception of Cassius, are simply too expensive at this points value and will rarely make back their points even indirectly. Even Cassius requires a squad with him to be effective, so that makes him difficult to choose as well. The only other option I can think of for 1500 would be a Librarian in a Razorback with, say, comb-imelta/HF Sternguard.

Also, I would definitely not suggest taking a 9 man squad of marines just to be able to fit your HQ in a Rhino with them...it's really a total waste of points. Bolters suck for the most part


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The points percentage thing is an interesting one. While you do want to save points you also want to be able to cover all your bases with fewer units when you don't have so many points available. 

I find myself using Lysander quite a lot in 1500 points because he brings a lot of utility along. He has a fancy hammer that can instant kill warbosses and the like and he can hold up monstrous critters. He can be a nice alternative to a dread or terminator squad, and better than a "do nothing" cheap HQ. I don't really rate the Motf, as he seems to be asking for a krak missile to the face just a bit too much.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Someguy said:


> I don't really rate the Motf, as he seems to be asking for a krak missile to the face just a bit too much.


With a 2+ armour save?
Unlikely.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Someguy said:


> The points percentage thing is an interesting one. While you do want to save points you also want to be able to cover all your bases with fewer units when you don't have so many points available.
> 
> I find myself using Lysander quite a lot in 1500 points because he brings a lot of utility along. He has a fancy hammer that can instant kill warbosses and the like and he can hold up monstrous critters. He can be a nice alternative to a dread or terminator squad, and better than a "do nothing" cheap HQ. I don't really rate the Motf, as he seems to be asking for a krak missile to the face just a bit too much.


About the points percentage thing - would it not be advantageous to have MORE units, while still covering all of your bases? While giving up marginally more KP (which, as a game mission, are retarded anyways for more reasons than one) is a downside, you gain utility in the ability to target more units per turn, and well simply having multiple redundant units on the table is a good thing for survivability.

Lysander is a ridiculous amount of points for a character who needs a land raider to be effective (I'm not really going to let your 6" move, 6" assault character hit me unless I want him to, or know I can win. When was the last time you let your prize unit get assaulted by a C'tan?) making his effective cost 450 (and that's without an accompanying assault marine/assault terminator squad), which is a lot for 1500. If you don't want to put him in assault, where he belongs, you put him in a shooty squad and just paid 200 points to reroll misses on ONE squad. For those reasons I feel he is ineffective at points values below 2000. 

I have personally toyed with him on Vassal and I could not find a build that could utilize his conflicting abilities efficiently. He's not really the same as a dread because he can't shoot, and takes up an HQ slot that could be used by a cheaper and more efficient HQ. He's also not really the same as a terminator squad because he can't really operate by himself. If he tries to operate by himself, he gets treated like a C'tan and ignored/avoided.

As for the MotF's survivability, I think that your point is debatable due to the fact that he has the ability to bolster ruins, and that ability combined with the fact that he is usually taken with a cloaked sniper scout "retinue" means that he has VERY good chances of surviving all game (especially if the rest of your army is more threatening). Your opponent is more likely to fire the krak missile at the 5 MM/HF land speeders blocking the movement of his armor than at the MotF (who has a save even against the AP3 Krak missile) camping a home objective. If I were to play you, and you were directing multiple lascannons/multimeltas/ML's/what have you at my scout squad instead of my armor, I'd be quite happy. If you choose not to shoot him, well his Beamer is bound to do some damage over a 6 turn game.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Fair enough, different army builds.

I've tried lysander in a drop pod with a tactical squad and in a crusader with various people, often also the tactical squad. Both of these worked up to a point but neither was perfect.

The key reasons to take him are S10 hammer and his durability. It's nice to have a guy who can fight MCs one on one and knock over monoliths (if you ever see one) and by taking him you don't need to take a vindicator or dread quite so much. I like very much to have a tar pit unit in my army and lysander fits the bill very nicely.

Actually I don't think there's any clear answer on this one. On the motf, ok the krak missile isn't going to be the problem. I just don't think he's really worth the points you pay and I don't like sniper scouts. I'm playing most of my games against mech so there's a guarantee that your opponent will reach you with some stuff, and snipers won't help stop it. In that context I'd like an HQ who can counter-attack or hold up the enemy in some way.

I also have quite a lot of time for Pedro. His +1 attack aura makes tactical marines a lot less of a joke and makes termies pretty horrific. My Pedro list seems to do well at beating back enemy assaults, but with the new SW dex it seems to have been superceeded. Wolves just do the same thing better.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

The MotF and sniper scouts (and Telion, who I usually bring along as well) with Hellfire HB (wound on a 2+ template) is good for targetting units that get forced out of transports by my array of melta weaponry and autocannons. I play a lot of mech as well, and they do get used. Sniper scouts aren't incredibly effective anymore, but they're basically ablative wounds for the hellfire HB guy, Telion, and the MotF. Like I said before though, if my opponent is racing towards my sniper scouts camping on an objective while my entire army threatens at midfield, I have no problem with that.

The S10 hammer is nice, but it's hard to catch vehicles (except for the odd monolith, which is a rare and very conditional use of him anyways) moving 12" per turn since you hit on a 6+. Yes, MC killing is nice and I'll give him that, but it still seems like a lot of points to pay for a minor increase in MC killing ability over, say, 3 AC/HB predators.

The problem with Pedro is that with stubborn, you get stuck into combats that you can't win since you can't run away. This is a big problem with Marines, since they are (for the most part) primarily shooty, and if you're stuck in combat you're not using your meltagun/flamer/multimelta/what have you. I've played around with him as well, and while +1A is nice, you're still getting run over by dedicated assault units.


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Honestly I've had great fun with Mephiston is a drop-pod with any unit with Dante and a jump squad close on his heels. Different armies can use similar tactics and it's a nasty trick in objective games (ooooh so much fun)


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