# Astartes Void Fighters



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I've tried asking this question before, but the thread got rather sidetracked away from what I was trying to get at. SO, before I go any further, I'd like to explain that I am fully aware of what the current fluff says about Astartes and what they have in their fleets. What I am trying to ask is a hypothetical, so please don't post anything about how 'fluff says Astartes don't have fighters, so this question makes no sense'- OK?:so_happy:

So, to get down to it. Should a Chapter Master feel that his gathered fleet is susceptible to enemy void fighters and wanted to equip a small Carrier for fleet defense (and only fleet defense, no running away to assault the enemy vessels), what sort of fighters do you think he would feel able to get away with?
We know that the IN get hot and bothered when the Astartes have anything that could challenge their own Naval dominance, so any Chapter so inclined isn't going to be using Furies and Starhawks. I also don't think that would be able to go with the older generation of fighter, such as the Lightning and Thunderbolt; mainly because I feel the Chapter is going to have to put together this fighter group itself, as trying to get them from Forgeworlds would undoubted raise suspicion. 
So, what do we think they would be like? What weapons? Would they be based on any extant Imperial fighters? Would they be analagous to any current or older RL fighters (probably going WWII, mainly for the look and ruggedness of simplicity (well, simplicity compared to jets!))?
Thoughts?

GFP


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Thunderhawk already fulfils this role. It is a multi-role aircraft- a fighter, close air support and drop ship. That said it is probably weakest in the role of an interceptor, lacking the speed and manoeuvrability of a lightning or fury. 

So in regards to your question i don't think any Chapter would go and develop it's own interceptor craft. In 10,000 years of war they have not yet needed to, why start now? It would also as you say go against the spirit of the Codex Astartes and the military reforms post Heresy(designed to reduce astartes independence militarily) whilst seriously annoying the navy. 

I also don't really see the need. Astartes ships are armed, armoured and fast enough to bull their way through opposition to achieve their goals of troop insertion. They are not equipped or designed for ship to ship combat but rather planetary invasions. In the event of void war Astartes seem to prefer boarding actions or the direct obliteration of enemy vessels rather than relying on strike craft.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm guessing you mean purely as a more definitive response than the atmospheric and void capable Thunderhawks and Stormravens to providing defence - both as being too valuable to risk sending over in terms of reducing planetstrike in that manner for a company by a third to a quarter, to actually wasting that huge inner hull space.

The Ceastus Assault Ram could form some manner of interdiction - the Magna Melta seems ideal for counter ordnance and bomber defence.

An Astartes Gunship seems rather poor though - many space marine vehicles are utilitarian - unless there's a variant Thunderhawk that's purely for attack runs - perhaps loaded with a heavy titan class weapon, like a Volcano cannon, or perhaps Apocalypse Missile Launcher variant, similar to a Reaver Titan's main weapons system.

However, there are Chapter serfs as well - the Crimson Fists maintain/maintained their own force of soldiers who acted as officers in the PDF if they failed the trials but survived the ordeals. The Ultramarines are noted for their PDF troopers often coming from the training camps after having attempted to join the chapter as a youth. The Salamanders share a particularly close relationship with their people, and in M32, the Space Wolves did the same. Fleet borne Chapters on the other hand, may not have easy access to such notable Imperial flavoured Assets, and may lack the Forge Ships to build and produce new and /or replacement parts - so may be forced to jury rig new versions of their vehicles.

After all, the Astartes on the whole are considered fairly ingenious - the Land Raider has 4 variants that are specifically noted as being developed as a response to situations at need - often seen across multiple chapters, the Blood Angels with their Baal Predators, etc.

I wouldn't put it past a Chapter master or Forge master to develop a kind of heavy-bomber or more dedicated ground attack craft at his whimsy.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm thinking more purely as a light fighter that is used to stop enemy fighters from interfering with the larger warships in a fleet. It would be purely void based, as I imagine that using something planetside could be too visible for something that could really get the Chapter into trouble with the High Lords as going too far over the established bounds of Astartes power.
With a fighter in this mould, it frees up the Thunderhawks to do their job of ferrying the Astartes where they need to be, and would allow Stormravens to do the job of being a gunship/transport. It's an idiosyncratic response to an issue where the Chapter can use Serfs/Serfs + Servitors to go out and do the fighting.
Rems, please mate, don't ignore what I'm asking again. I want a discussion about what could be, not some dogmatic lecture on what is and how it makes my question pointless. It's a big galaxy, and the astartes are a wilful lot. Plus, if I decide my own Chapter is going to have unusual things, it will; I'd just like to clothe them in some verisimilitude and have them be thematically, and logically, possible.
I reckon you'd have something small and fast, in the mould of the Lightning. Serf in command and Servitor to help with the complex job of aiming in a void-dogfight. Armed with, probably, Lascannon as the time from barrel-to-target will be much reduced compared to Assault Cannon or Autocannon- although I could see these getting some use if the fighter gets some use in trying to down incoming Ship-Killers.

GFP


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I can't imagine the High Lords would look too deeply into such a minor situation.

The Badab Campaign prelude pretty much summed this up. The only reason the High Lords and the other Astartes got drawn in to combat the secessionists was the destruction of the Kathargo Fleets. Never mind the ~150 years of re-establishing a Demi-legion in secret, withholding geneseed tithe, blockading the Imperial Trade Transit through the Badab System.

I sincerely doubt that the development of a void-capable interdiction role fighter craft designed to engage and destroy bombers or remove enemy fighter screens before the boarding assault wave hits is going to raise too many eyebrows. Mostly because sources for the marines armament is often second hand, and many foes are not considered to be accurate sources of information.

The cogs of the Imperium turn too slow to actually do anything about it for the most part. A Chapter Master retains the right above all others to protect the Imperium - by any means necessary - it's that which allows him to enact a Exterminatus, or in the manner of the Astral Claws, reshape an entire system's planetary defence forces numbering in excess of 3 billion. It's a "needs must" - and the for the most part, Chapter Techmarines and Armorium adepts are far more pragmatic rather than the typical dogmatic slavery to the machine cult - referencing the use the Ordinatus at Helsreach despite the "techno-heresy", along with the creation of the aforementioned Land Raider variants - the Black Templars Crusader, the Red Scorpions Helios, the Salamanders Prometheus, or the Fire Lords Redeemer.

It's a needs must when daemons drive, sort of thing, I'd imagine. Certain straight laced chapters like the Ultramarines might baulk at not following the "rules" (Despite every notable Ultra marine we hear about being non-conformist to the Codex Astartes -strange, no?), yet others, particularly the most autonomous - the Black Templars, Carcharadons, possibly Dark Angels, Space Wolves (in M32 have several none-standard craft, a little jiggery pokery and coinjecture later on, and you get possibility on standard-carrier payloads.

For armament, a nose mounted weapon system - high rate of fire- so possibly a Machine Spirit controlled assault cannon turret (as found in the forward hull mount of the Land Raider or Razorback turret), or possibly an on-axis Mega-bolter/multiple Autocannon system similar to that of the Thunderbolt or Marauder Destroyer.

There's no need for ground attack pylons for bombs or unguided rockets, but anti-air missiles or thunderhawk under-wing weapon mounts could well be utilised - again possibly machine spirit controlled with a manual override if needed.

According the the Horus Heresy books, the Stormbird is a broad class of vehicles, which itself is the denoted class, and then multiple variants such as the Thunderhawk and Stormraven are then later developments but are still of the Stormbird class - note that the names correlate as well. If you to make one, what would you call it? Cyclone Ostrich? Tempest Emu? Squall Chicken?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Names? Maybe the 'Killer Kiwi'...
I imagine their might be a couple of variants, or, more likely a modular system to adapt the craft for certain missions. Maybe Lascannon, for anti-fighter missions; maybe Assault Cannon/long-barreled Autocannon for anti-bomber/Ship Killer missions. Maybe you's even get a Plasma variant for taking out Boarding Torpedoes!
I do like the idea of a nose-mounted weapon system, although I do envisage this fighter as having stubby wings/winglets purely for mounting weapons. Whether they would mount any sort of missile-type weapon is still up for debate.
I'm quite liking the idea of a design based on the Lightning- small-ish, but kick arse fast and manouverable. And much like the WWII Mitsubishi Zero, it wouldn't be very well armoured, relying on it's speed and manouverability to stay alive/get kills; however, I'm certainly willing to change my mind on this.

GFP


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Alright then why not just use the Lightning or Fury? 

They have the advantage of being tried and tested craft with STC blueprints. They also fufil the role of an inceptor well. I can imagine a Chapter Master pressuring a local forge world to supply a certain number to his own forces. Or if they somehow got their hands on the schematics (via techmarine espionage perhaps) then constructing them from their own armoury. 

If you really are looking to construct your own strike craft though then i too would base it around the lightning or fury. Small, highly manoeuvrable with nose mounted weapons and some missile racks. Given it's an astartes vehicle there's also the opportunity for a extra-sophisticated marine spirit. (the thunderhawk has one of the most advanced types of machine spirit you can get, comparable to that of a reaver battle titan).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

As others said, the Thunderhawk is probably the most logical choice. The SM codex states that they use the Thunderhawks as "space bound heavy fighters". Their firepower is probably ideal for taking out slow lumbering bombers.

Honestly, though, if there was a thick spread of strike craft to deal with, it'd probably fall to the escorts--destroyers and the like--to fend the bombers.

Not to mention Space Marine craft also tend to be on the comfortable side of "speedy", bombers probably wouldn't be too much of an issue. 

But, really, if you want to make your SM force built around a carrier then there's no real wrong option. If you want to stay as fluffy as possible, man them with a lot of Thunderhawks. Perhaps they saved a Forgeworld at one time, and a pact between them allows them to boast a large contingent of Thunderhawks. 

Another fluffy option is to increase the number of escorts in their fleet. Maybe they're a Fleet-based Chapter and need the extra ommph.

Then from there you're pretty much doing your own thing.

I'd suggest Lightnings. They're small and very role-specific. You can't really change them into a real bomber, for example.

Thunderbolts next, though they're probably too slow to play a real interceptor role. They did use them as interceptors in "Double Eagle", though. Then again they were so desperate that they were tossing up prop planes into the air, too.

Furies would be next. But Furies are absolutely HUGE. They're 3 times as large as a Thunderhawk. 

I think that covers all the options.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with the general concensus that it would be lightnings. Small light disposable and piloted by servitors or chapter serfs. I don't see any reason why a forge world would reject a reasonable request for light fleet defense fighters. It would be more irresponsible to let a fleet go without this kind of defense.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I see no reason why a Chapter Master would not want to use what is readily available, mainly Lightnings, unless a very specific niche must be filled. Since I'm reading Helsreach, I remembered an interesting exchange.

"My men were in the Lightnings that guided you down, Reclusiarch." (Note here that the Black Templars were in Thunderhawks, though it was probably just a formality). "A pleasure to serve with the Black Templars again... I have personally [served] - nine years ago on Dathax - and the Fifty-Eighty-Twos have on no fewer than four separate occasions." - Commander Barasath of the Imperial 5082nd Naval Wing.

This passage demonstrates the cooperation between the Navy and a fleet-based Chapter like the Black Templars, but it's not crazy to think a normal Chapter would work with the Navy when it needed to.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The main reason I'm not just going the Lightning route, is because at some point the Munitorum are going to find out an Astartes Chapter has amassed a large number of them and is going to throw a shit-fit. Such armament is totally beyond the purview of the Astartes because of the seperation of powers imposed on the Imperium's various armed forces in the wake of the HH.
Certainly, this fighter could be _based_ on the Lightning, but won't _be_ a Lightning. I'm actually thinking lighter and faster, fitting in with the ethos of Astartes _iiiiiiiinnnnnn spaaaaaccceeee!_. Why these over Destroyers such as the Gladius and Cobra? Because going up against an enemy fleet, these ships are going to be needed to counter the enemy's light Frigates and Destroyers, as well as boring in with their torpedoes, weapons batteries and, in the case of the Nova, Lances (which itself makes the IN unhappy as it can be a Capital Ship hunter, giving the Astartes capabilities that the IN know should belong solely to them). A fighter designed to sit back with the main body of the fleet during an engagement, offers an extra layer of defence and frees up the smaller vessels to perform their more offensive duties. This is why I'm thinking of an almost modular design: anti-fighter. anti-boarding craft and anti-Ship Killer.
So, what sort of Carrier would they be based on? I'm going with some form of Defiant-class Light Cruiser; there is a good chance that over the millenia of service the Chapter would have had the opportunity to capture one or two as Prizes (the SW seem to have an ancient Battleship won in this manner, don't they?), either reclaimed from Traitor forces or anti-Piracy duties. Again, it would have to be something that wouldn't draw too much attention to itself- so no Grand Cruisers!
Please guys, rather than trying an 'off the shelf' route, just go with me on this and let's come up with something a bit original. You don't have to agree with what or why, but surely it will be fun?!

GFP


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm still shaky about the whole fighter thing. I think a group of small corvettes built around a suite of anti-strike weaponry would work.

Besides, I don't think SMs stacking Lightnings would piss off the IN or anyone else. Why? It doesn't overstep their bounds. 

The IN is pissed off about lance-carrying destroyers because that's a clear anti-ship vessel--something the IN doesn't want the SM to be able to do. Lightnings aren't so flexible. They're too light to do anything but be anti-strikecraft. Doesn't really touch on IN's anti-ship capability.



Another possibility is to create your own Thunderhawk variant. It could be lighter and faster than the standard gunship, yet retain the gatling laser to take down enemy heavy bombers. That way the whole concept stays fluffy and you can build a fighter-that-isn't-a-lightning.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm thinking that the Lightning would be an issue because of how it could be used in a ground-support role, taking the place of the IN (again!), or the Aeronautica. This would give the Astartes too much scope to expand their role on the battlefield, from surgical strike-and-massacre, to more take and hold with air-support making up for lack of boots on the ground; I can't see any IG General being pleased at his/her role being usurped and I can see the High Lords getting a bit nervous of a CM making his Chapter's battlefield presence more than it should be.
I've already come up with a new version of Thundergawk called the 'Berkut'. It's down-armed and has a larger cargo space, being used as an infiltration ship and base for Scout missions. It is also used as an air-drop vehicle, to Deep Strike Landspeeders from altitude. 
Just indulge on the fighters, guys; I fancy a bit of make-stuff-up fun and am looking for other thoughts to get that Astartes pragmatism flavour.

GFP


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Meh, they can already control an airspace with Thunderhawk gunships. Both as a ground attack and limited air-superiority. 

Plus Astartes are already an incredible fighting force. Giving them Lightnings won't make them much scarier. It's when they get large fleets or increase their numbers considerably outside the 1000 man limit that people get worried.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Just indulge on the fighters, guys; I fancy a bit of make-stuff-up fun and am looking for other thoughts to get that Astartes pragmatism flavour.


I think they are being pretty indulgent on this. To me the Lightning and the Thunderhawk are both more pragmatic solutions to this problem then a scratch-built, custom-made fighter. Both are readily available, battle tested and well within a Chapters right to acquire. You seemed concerned that the Navy could actually do anything about Chapter acquiring too many Lightnings which is incorrect. Numerous Chapters make use of Lance-bearing Escorts which the Navy has repeatedly complained about, have they done anything else about it? No. Plus, it seems like your Chapter is operating fairly independent of the Navy (which is why they'd need these ships in the first place) so it's not all that likely that they'd find out. Further, the Ad Mech is going to be thoroughly upset at the idea of your Chapter innovating new ships (especially with other options readily available) and unlike the Navy they can actually do something about it (withholding supplies, refusing to train more tech-marines, etc). 

Also, I'd just like to point out the existance of point-defence weapons, which are specifically designed for defence against fighters, bombers and the like.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

just like to point out that in one of the soul drinkers novels the caniblalize a strike craft on board one of their old ships. so i can imagine that they might do the same if the need arose, though i doubt it will.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

The lack of an air-space superiority fighter for the Space Marines really makes no sense. The Thunderhawk is a close air support and airborne assault aircraft with limited air-to-air capabilities at best. If you just look at the thing you can see it can't compete with the sleek fighters of other races such as the Eldar, Necrons, Tau, or even Hellblade. Israeli Air Force AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters can also attack targets air-to-air, and they have in the past (Hezbollah UAV's and a small plane that ventured into airspace) but that doesn't mean we don't need fighter aircraft. Really a few squadrons of some kind of fighter aircraft (even piloted by chapter serfs) would be necessary for the Astartes if the GW/BL writers used their brains. 

Space Combat isn't like it is in Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica though. Fighters in space seem to be extremely limited in capability and size matters in the ship-to-ship combat of the 41st Millennium. Ships are too large, lack deus ex machina Death Star weak points, and have too strong void shields for fighters to be effective against anything but small-scale operations, tiny craft, raiders, pirates, etc.. I can see them useful for the bomber role though, waves delivering clusters of nuclear missiles against larger warships to bring down their Void Shields.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Harriticus said:


> The lack of an air-space superiority fighter for the Space Marines really makes no sense.


Typically the Marines don't have or require much air-support for a very simple reason: they are an elite strike force. They get in, get the job done and get out before the enemy can retaliate. They don't need air-support because by the time the enemy can scramble their own air-support the Marines are gone. They aren't designed to hold ground, that's the Guards job (with Navy support), they are designed to take it, in the swiftest and most bloody way possible. This is much the same reason why they lack superheavies, it's just not necessary.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Typically the Marines don't have or require much air-support for a very simple reason: they are an elite strike force. They get in, get the job done and get out before the enemy can retaliate. They don't need air-support because by the time the enemy can scramble their own air-support the Marines are gone. They aren't designed to hold ground, that's the Guards job (with Navy support), they are designed to take it, in the swiftest and most bloody way possible. This is much the same reason why they lack superheavies, it's just not necessary.


Rapid strike operations need lots of air support, it's part of what rapid strike is about. I can understand why the SM's don't have Baneblade and Basilisks, but not a dedicated air superiority aircraft. What if the enemy has formidable air power (Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau anyone?). Are they really meant to go in with no air support they themselves can coordinate? The Tau especially fight with lots and lots of airpower. Barracudas, Tigersharks, Mantas, Orcas, Remoras. They have a wide array of air support and use it in close conjunction with ground operations. The Astartes need to clear the skies if they're to emerge victorious against the Tau.

Relying on Imperial Navy air support is a pretty glaring weakness, as it limits the Astartes ability to operate in certain warzones when they're meant to have self-suffiency. 

Real-life US Marines have their own fighter aircraft (F/A-18A Hornets and eventually the F-35C Lightning II) in addition to strike fighters (AV-8 Harriers) and even electronic warfare aircraft (E/A-6 Prowlers) and they're largely intended for the same role as Space Marines, albeit much toned down.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

That limitation is supposed to be there. Since the Heresy the entirety of the Imperium's military has been designed so no one element, or even individual fighting forces, can be self sufficient. 

The Guard require the navy for transport and aircraft. Each regiment is not a combined arms force, but one type eg tank, light infantry, mechanised, artillery and nothing else. The Space Marines do not have automatic command and control over other Imperial forces any more, they are limited to 1000 members and their naval capabilities are intended for planetary invasion, not void combat. 

Also in regards to strike craft in void combat, bombers are usefull as they travel slow enough to bypass Void Shield (much like torpedoes) and as such can strike a ship directly whilst the other ships can only hammer it's shields till their down.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Space Marines really aren't limited at all. They have their own infantry, tanks, aircraft, heavily armed fleet, means of production, worlds, means of recruitment, etc.. An air superiority fighter won't be the doom of the Imperium if they defect.

And Void Shields can be bypassed by slow speeds? Never knew.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Harriticus said:


> Space Marines really aren't limited at all. They have their own infantry, tanks, aircraft, heavily armed fleet, means of production, worlds, means of recruitment, etc.. An air superiority fighter won't be the doom of the Imperium if they defect.


True, though they certainly possess less autonomy, authority and martial power than the legions of old. Their fleets, while powerful, are not optimised for void warfare and can be handled by the Navy. 



> And Void Shields can be bypassed by slow speeds? Never knew.


Learn something new every day!

It's why torpedoes and strike craft actually work against vessels. It's also why a key tactic to defeating titans without your own titan support is to get to point blank range, within the shield radius, and blast away. That's why tank companies and land raiders and such are an actual threat to Titans in great enough numbers (particularly the smaller engines).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Typically the Marines don't have or require much air-support for a very simple reason: they are an elite strike force. They get in, get the job done and get out before the enemy can retaliate. They don't need air-support because by the time the enemy can scramble their own air-support the Marines are gone. They aren't designed to hold ground, that's the Guards job (with Navy support), they are designed to take it, in the swiftest and most bloody way possible. This is much the same reason why they lack superheavies, it's just not necessary.


Wait - no, that's wrong. Air Support is the easiest way to dump extreme high explosives. Using todays analogy, the Royal Marines have access to a 105mm shell as our heaviest in-house weapon. Outsourcing, we get 155mm guns on the Armies AS90, or 120mm on the Armies Challenger 2. Trooping off to the Royal Navy, we can get a one shot package delivered with a Cruise missile.

With Air Support, we can get Loiter time Air craft with multiple munitions, auxiliary air-ground support systems (like NLOS Camera's and Thermal detectors for example), as well as providing correspondence with the controller - whether they're sitting in a couch half the way across the world, or 150feet above the battle field in an Attack Helo.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Harriticus said:


> Rapid strike operations need lots of air support, it's part of what rapid strike is about. I can understand why the SM's don't have Baneblade and Basilisks, but not a dedicated air superiority aircraft. What if the enemy has formidable air power (Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau anyone?). Are they really meant to go in with no air support they themselves can coordinate? The Tau especially fight with lots and lots of airpower. Barracudas, Tigersharks, Mantas, Orcas, Remoras. They have a wide array of air support and use it in close conjunction with ground operations. The Astartes need to clear the skies if they're to emerge victorious against the Tau.


We (modern humanity) need air-support to launch a rapid strike, Marines don't. Why? Because they have *space*. They don't need planes because they can drop themselves where ever they need to be from orbit and then the thunderhawks can pick them pack up. The xenos superior air-support is neutralized by the fact that it's grounded when the attack happens (not even the Eldar or Tau can keep a craft perpetual airborn) and by the time they get airborn the Marines are gone (as I said previously).



> Relying on Imperial Navy air support is a pretty glaring weakness, as it limits the Astartes ability to operate in certain warzones when they're meant to have self-suffiency.


Which is exactly the point. You don't think that the Guards inability to literally move from one battle-field to another is a glaring weakness? Or the Navies inability to actually hold territory? The armies of the Imperium are designed to work together. The Astartes take, the Guard hold, the Navy support; it's how the machine works.



Vaz said:


> Wait - no, that's wrong. Air Support is the easiest way to dump extreme high explosives. Using todays analogy, the Royal Marines have access to a 105mm shell as our heaviest in-house weapon. Outsourcing, we get 155mm guns on the Armies AS90, or 120mm on the Armies Challenger 2. Trooping off to the Royal Navy, we can get a one shot package delivered with a Cruise missile.


Marines are their own heaviest in-house weapon! But seriously, I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's no way that anything a airplane could carry would be more dangerous than a bombardment cannon. And Marines aren't designed for bombing runs or supression tactics, they are designed for raids and rapid strikes, neither of which require big guns.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> Marines are their own heaviest in-house weapon! But seriously, I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's no way that anything a airplane could carry would be more dangerous than a bombardment cannon. And Marines aren't designed for bombing runs or supression tactics, they are designed for raids and rapid strikes, neither of which require big guns.


A Bombardment cannon would have to be brought down into low orbit bringing the ship into range of orbital defences. Also - are you forgetting that the Ship would be capable of providing loitre support while said bombardment cannon is reloading. Neither could the Cannon realign to the target. Call down support, wait for the shell to traverse the 2000km or so that low orbit entails (work that out when a shell travels at, say, for ease, 1km/s - around half an hour, yeah?). An Orbital Bombardment is preliminary or against pre-designated targets incapable of reacting to the rapid flow of battle which in the astartes typical MO.

If those Orbital defences were as extensive as they were on Vraks, they would force the alternate landing zone of the Thunderhawks elsewhere. Those Thunderhawks would then be able to act in an Interdiction role.

Multi-tasking and all that. However - consider the Thunderhawk for a while - how much of its capability is wasted by having a capacity of 30 Marines. Using the bulk listed in books to suggest that a Marine requires twice the space, front and back of a normal human, that would mean that 50-60 normal humans could fit in the hold of a Thunderhawk.

Consider filling a Thunderhawk with even a Titan Class Weapon - a Gatling Blaster, Melta-Cannon, Volcano Cannon, or even multiple Vulcan Megabolters, in exchange for its troop hold. Swap its turret systems, the paired Heavy Bolters for the Door Systems which could aid in Void Combat - like the paired Godhammer Pattern Lascannons, or even for short range anti-torpedo/bombing runs, multi-meltas from an Achilles, and you've got one hell of a capable anti-ordnance ship.

That's what I'm getting at. 

As for the whole "that's not the marines shtick", Astartes frequently participate in sieges - Vraks and the Palace of Thorns being the most easily recognisable ones. The Red Scorpions developed their Helios Land Raiders to counter the effects of a lack of reliable artillery in a siege situation. Yes, it doesn't have the same hitting power of a Bombard or a Quake Cannon, but if the Astartes required that capability then they'd certainly make use of it.

Yes, the typical MO of a Chapter in combat doesn't require the deployment of huge siege pieces, but if the situation required the use of such calibre weapons, then they'd proxy/jury rig them.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Vaz said:


> A Bombardment cannon would have to be brought down into low orbit bringing the ship into range of orbital defences. Also - are you forgetting that the Ship would be capable of providing loitre support while said bombardment cannon is reloading.


The bombardment cannons (plural becaues ships have several and marines have several ships) are used to soften the planet before the Marines are inserted, typically by taking out the orbital defences. The Marines do not require support during the mission because their is nothing for the support to do. The Marines take out the ground targets and their are no air targets to speak of. 



> Neither could the Cannon realign to the target. Call down support, wait for the shell to traverse the 2000km or so that low orbit entails (work that out when a shell travels at, say, for ease, 1km/s - around half an hour, yeah?).


Because the ship is in orbit it will be capable of reaching targets very far apart without significant repositioning. And 30min is drastically longer than it should take; at orbital velocities it should take less than 5min to hit its target, which I gotta figure is around standard artillery time.



> Consider filling a Thunderhawk with even a Titan Class Weapon - a Gatling Blaster, Melta-Cannon, Volcano Cannon, or even multiple Vulcan Megabolters, in exchange for its troop hold. Swap its turret systems, the paired Heavy Bolters for the Door Systems which could aid in Void Combat - like the paired Godhammer Pattern Lascannons, or even for short range anti-torpedo/bombing runs, multi-meltas from an Achilles, and you've got one hell of a capable anti-ordnance ship.


Multi-tasking and all that. The Thunderhawk is already equiped with weapon systems sufficient for the Marines needs *and* can carry thirty marines. Replace the cargo hold with a gun (not an easy task, particularly on something designed for airial combat) and you have a very good ship, that you really don't need and is incapable of preforming the tasks you do need. The primary purpose of Thunderhawks is as a heavy transport ship, with the emphasis on the transport. Giving it a bigger gun doesn't help it fill this role.



> As for the whole "that's not the marines shtick", Astartes frequently participate in sieges - Vraks and the Palace of Thorns being the most easily recognisable ones.


But when they do so they do not act alone, they have the support of the Guard and Navy meaning that they do not require their own support. Marines operate alone only in situations where they are acting in the manner I described (and thus do not require support) or are pretty much screwed anyway.



> Yes, the typical MO of a Chapter in combat doesn't require the deployment of huge siege pieces, but if the situation required the use of such calibre weapons, then they'd proxy/jury rig them.


Or, you know use the support that the Guard and Navy are there to supply.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> The bombardment cannons (plural becaues ships have several and marines have several ships) are used to soften the planet before the Marines are inserted, typically by taking out the orbital defences. The Marines do not require support during the mission because their is nothing for the support to do. The Marines take out the ground targets and their are no air targets to speak of.


Where is it stated they have more than one? Particularly on the Astartes strike vessels? The one account I can remember is the one against the Tyranids in the Ventris novels, and that states of the suicidal ship only having one, IIRC. And the chapter doesn't always deploy multiple ships. Strike vessels are frequently noted as going it alone, and escort classes as far as I'm aware aren't noted as having bombardment cannons - being forced to rely on lances or torpedoes.



> Because the ship is in orbit it will be capable of reaching targets very far apart without significant repositioning. And 30min is drastically longer than it should take; at orbital velocities it should take less than 5min to hit its target, which I gotta figure is around standard artillery time.


A .30-06 calibre fired straight upwards, and left to fall reaches terminal at around 200mph. Considering that a shell fired from artillery is around 900m/s, called 1K/s for ease, it can only really slow down as it reaches the increasingly dense atmosphere. 



> The primary purpose of Thunderhawks is as a heavy transport ship, with the emphasis on the transport. Giving it a bigger gun doesn't help it fill this role.


Replacing the transport hold with magnetic grav-clamps to transport vehicles doesn't help in it's role as an Orbital Lander for 30 marines either. The Rhino is designed to carry 10 Marines into battle. Replacing that with a Demolisher Cannon or multiple heavy weapon systems requiring the use of the troop hold to carry the autoloaders, coolant and other auxiliary systems. The land raider is a troop transport with heavy weapon system. Replacing that transport hold with multiple lascannons to make it a Titan Hunter doesn't fit with the original ideal.

Null point.



> Or, you know use the support that the Guard and Navy are there to supply.


But when they cannot use that support and the use orbital assets is not available, yet titan class weaponry is required, what are the marines going to do? "Ah well, we did our best chaps, back home to Fenris for tea and medals?" No, they're going to jury rig something together.

For example, if you're at home, and your toasters broke, do you say sod it, don't want toast, or do you put it under the grill?

Getting back on the topic of Void Fighters though - a craft capable of operating in space, would the marines have them? The best that you can come up with is "they're not allowed" - when in reality they actually do what the fuck they want - using Huron as the example, the only time the Imperium actually gave a real fuck was when Astartes stated slotting each other. Not that he'd stolen many years worth of trade out of the region, and didn't bother to send his geneseed.

If a Chapter wanted one, they could easily either utilise the existing Fighters, under the rights to defend the Imperium to claim them from a Forge World, or even, if they wish, to claim them from a transport in violent action - after all, a lone hauler lost in transit is hardly unique.

Alternatively, they could get their Techmarines to jury their own craft into a more combat nature - retasking a Caestus, Stormraven, or Thunderhawk to a less multi-use nature (after all, the Vindicator, Predator, and Whirlwind are hardly multi-taskable outside of their ammunition/weapon loadouts.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Where is it stated they have more than one? Particularly on the Astartes strike vessels? The one account I can remember is the one against the Tyranids in the Ventris novels, and that states of the suicidal ship only having one, IIRC. And the chapter doesn't always deploy multiple ships. Strike vessels are frequently noted as going it alone, and escort classes as far as I'm aware aren't noted as having bombardment cannons - being forced to rely on lances or torpedoes.


I was under the impression that they had several as Marine fleets are stated to be capable of taking on planetary defences by themselves. It's a moot point whether their bombardment cannons or lances or whatever, the point was that they pack a greater payload than whatever a plane could carry.



> Replacing the transport hold with magnetic grav-clamps to transport vehicles doesn't help in it's role as an Orbital Lander for 30 marines either. The Rhino is designed to carry 10 Marines into battle. Replacing that with a Demolisher Cannon or multiple heavy weapon systems requiring the use of the troop hold to carry the autoloaders, coolant and other auxiliary systems. The land raider is a troop transport with heavy weapon system. Replacing that transport hold with multiple lascannons to make it a Titan Hunter doesn't fit with the original ideal.


1) I said transport, not troop transport. Thus both the Rhino and Land Raider carring varients do serve their purpose.
2) I was not aware of the Titan Hunter variant of the Thunderhawk. However it sounds like exactly what you are suggesting, so why do they need a different one?



> But when they cannot use that support and the use orbital assets is not available, yet titan class weaponry is required, what are the marines going to do? "Ah well, we did our best chaps, back home to Fenris for tea and medals?" No, they're going to jury rig something together.


So they have access to titan class weapondry, Thunderhawks, tech-marines and forges but not the Guard or their own fleets? Seems like a very unlikely scenario. But regardless, I'm not saying that Marines would never jury-rig a new system, I'm saying that they wouldn't design a brand new (or heavily modified) system for this increadibly unlikely scenario.



> Getting back on the topic of Void Fighters though - a craft capable of operating in space, would the marines have them? The best that you can come up with is "they're not allowed" - when in reality they actually do what the fuck they want


Actually my argument isn't that they aren't allowed (though they aren't) it's that they *don't need new versions*. They already have systems in place to deal with the scenarios they will likely be in. The tech exists if they decide to do something else. They do not need to design or modify the existing systems because they work fine.



> If a Chapter wanted one, they could easily either utilise the existing Fighters, under the rights to defend the Imperium to claim them from a Forge World, or even, if they wish, to claim them from a transport in violent action - after all, a lone hauler lost in transit is hardly unique.


Exactly. I have never stated that Marines could not or would not use existing fighters. I explained why they wouldn't invent new fighters and have tried to explain why they don't need air-support.


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