# Heresy Series letting us down?



## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

It seems to me we are getting a lot more negative reviews than positive ones as the series goes on. Do people feel the same? are BL taking note of this? is there someone who controls the direction that the series is supposed to be going in? 

I want to know about the heresy far more than just random stories but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify spending money on books that are getting more and more expensive when the content is getting not just poor but often bloody irrelevant.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

No. At least I don't think so. Perhaps some don't care for the direction the series has gone in, but I love the Horus Heresy series and eagerly anticipate each release.


LotN


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## Paceyjg (May 12, 2011)

I guess the sales are the main indicator of how successful the series is for BL. 

As long as people are buying the average books as well as the decent ones it won't matter!


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Personally think the negative vibes on the forum is just a loud minority. Ive personally enjoyed nearly everything so far.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't celebrate mediocrity. The standard has slipped. From the fast paced movement and energy of the series, it has settled into a slow drudgeory of 'limited edition' bollocks, with questionable plot lines and writer quality.

A vocal minority is usually used disparagingly to suggest that they are an irrelevance because they have a small number - assocoated woth the likes of WBC etc. I really dislike its use for that matter.

It is a victim of its own success, like Starbucks, or apple, where the name sells itself. I still stupidly get each HH nonaudio release, simply by virtue of its name. (except the LE's), so I am equally gullible, but I'd rather having read it make my opinions known, especially in regards to dross such as the latest couple.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I personally think they reached the Dropsite Massacre in two books and went "Shiiiiiiiit..." when they realised that if they kept up the same pace, the entire series would be done and dusted in less than 8 novels. Now it does seem to be a LOT of pointless padding instead of developing the characters already in existence and moving the overall time frame onwards.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I think we've had a couple of these threads already, but here goes...



Lord of the Night said:


> and eagerly anticipate each release.


As do I, but unfortunately we've gone from more hits than misses to more misses than hits. Then we have this wave of LE books that seem to be getting in the way of the proper novel releases, which have slowed right down coming off the assembly line. 

I am starting to get the impression that they seem to have lost their way, and are filling in gaps with audios, shorts and novellas that would otherwise be left on the cutting room floor. 

I'll keep going with the series in the hope that it picks up, but it has lost it's gloss for me, and it's going to take a good run of back to back quality releases to get it back.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Stephen74 said:


> It seems to me we are getting a lot more negative reviews than positive ones as the series goes on. Do people feel the same? are BL taking note of this?
> 
> I want to know about the heresy far more than just random stories but I'm finding it harder and harder to justify spending money on books that are getting more and more expensive when the content is getting not just poor but often bloody irrelevant.


It's simply a matter of an entire franchise being carried on the shoulders of two (arguably three) men. When, how and why did this happen is something that doesn't have a simple answer.



Stephen74 said:


> is there someone who controls the direction that the series is supposed to be going in?


Doesn't seem like it with the occasional destruction of established lore. To me it's more like certain authors take it upon themselves to not go against canon and to take the IP seriously by not creating retarded shit and treating it with respect.

There has been a huge number of new titles, Heresy and 40k, over the past year and I've ignored like 95% of them. Simply based on who wrote the book. That's not how it should be.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

I love the heresy series. It is the only series i follow. But i do feel that the novel output has been slowed down and the LE novellas has ramped up. If they could increase novel produciton while maintaining quaility i would be hapy. I dont want to be 50 and the series is still going on...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

You know what? I actually think they have made a lot of thing work and make sense in regards of why things ended up how they were and how they effect the 40k world. The Ultramarines portrayal is an example.

However... though they did make things connect, there is plenty of bad story telling. Like... wow... I almost feel like some of the traitor marines were a little more than guardsmen. 

I think one thing I was critical about is how certain authors approach certain things. For example, Graham McNeill showed how shitty the Iron Warriors were in the Ultramarines Series and pushed that shit into the Heresy Series to where your like... wow. 

I almost feel see the traitor legions as simply a complete corrosion of half the Imperium instead of two strong identies with different ideologies fighting each other. The Chaos forces just look like they are causing their own demise.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

To be honest, the Heresy series has never been a series of consistent high quality publications. In my opinion it has always been made up of the odd great, a few good, mostly mediocre, and a few terrible novels. Even looking back to the opening trilogy, I could level significant criticisms at _False Gods_ and _Galaxy in Flames_, despite enjoying them both. But back then, the series had a singular purpose with a narrow focus. After book five (_Fulgrim_) the series slowly began to branch out and, in many ways, bit off more than it could chew. With more authors added to the roster (by my estimation we have had 15+ contributors) and more plots and sub-plots explored and created the series suffered from wild inconsistency and never seemed to have the strong direction and purpose which the opening 3-5 novels had. This ambitious branching out after book five did not seem particularly well-managed (eg. it took several years for the authors to clarify simple facts such as Legion sizes), although numerous self-contained sub-plots have worked well within the series (War for Ultramar, Thramas Crusade, Burning of Prospero, etc) there still doesn't seem to be a strong overall direction. 

Where we're are at now, the series is constantly skipping around across different sub-plots and creating more all of the time. It is circulated in numerous different formats with three(?) release dates for every novel because of all the different editions. Central novels are supplemented by seperate audio books, compilations, novellas and limited edition releases. There is no central database or timeline to explain the flow of the series. It all just seems very ragtag. Many of us who have followed it from the beginning in 2006 can handle it, but I don't envy people who have just decided to start the series, I can imagine it can be very daunting, you would have to do significant research just to know where to start! 

Having said all of that (and I do have many, many criticisms of the series), I do still enjoy it. Some authors have made consistently high-quality contributions (AD-B, French, Wraight and Abnett) and I have liked many things that the authors have done or expanded upon. Unfortunately though, it does have many shortcomings.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Writers aside because everyone has different tastes, you highlight one of, what I think, is the most important points. That they seemed to branch out and take on too much.

I would have thought, given how anal GW are over their IP, they would have sat down at the start of all this and planned what they were going to do. What course the heresy was going to take, what legions were involved, when, how, why etc...

There are several books where the general consensus is that they don't really add anything to the series. In my opinion there should be someone at BL overseeing this, looking an synopsis, controlling what is going on. 

I normally wouldn't mind what they are doing, but at £30 a pop for audio books. I don't want to buy some of the irrelevant poo they are coming up with.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris 
Dan 
Aaron 

^ These are the only talented authours on the team. The HH series would be consistently good if these three write everything. Alas, they're only human. Dan writes at a tremendous pace but he does a lot of non-40K stuff as well. I'm not sure about Chris but Aaron has said he's a slow writer. 

Thus we have guys like...Swallow, Kyme, Thorpe, McNeill. Any of these names is a big "DO NOT READ" sign to me. 

Now to be fair, I did enjoy A Thousand Sons. However, The Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus are excruciatingly bad IMO. I've also tried McNeill's Ultramarines series. To put it mildly, the writing style isn't to my taste. My conclusion is that ATS is an anomaly. 

I read good books, I don't want no mediocre.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was actually surprised Reynolds didn't do any earlier heresy stuff. He really hit it well with the Word Bearer's series and disappeared. I think he could write a good novel.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen74 said:


> Writers aside because everyone has different tastes, you highlight one of, what I think, is the most important points. That they seemed to branch out and take on too much.
> 
> I would have thought, given how anal GW are over their IP, they would have sat down at the start of all this and planned what they were going to do. What course the heresy was going to take, what legions were involved, when, how, why etc...
> 
> ...


Yes, I think that's hit the nail on the head.

Regardless of what authors are involved in the series (people have different tastes after all) I don't think it can be denied that the scale and focus of the series ambitiously expanded after book five. Presumably this was always intentional (depending on how well the first 3-5 books sold) and the scale that the series has reached now is only the inevitable by-product. The main issue with this was (and still is) the organisation. This has resulted in problems of inconsistency, confusion, a lack of central focus and frustration. 

To talk about the inconsistency a sec: series which have 15+ contributors will inevitably suffer from inconsistencies, but in this case they could have been contained. I know I keep referring to the Legion sizes, but it really does baffle me that something like this was not discussed or agreed upon before the series started or even in it's infancy. It was not actually sorted out until after book twelve!

Another example is when I asked Jim Swallow about why he depicted the Sons of Horus' armour as metallic coloured in _Nemesis_ (instead of the established sea-green) he replied something along the lines of: "actually you'll find that most sources depict it as metallic-coloured". When I pointed out that he was in fact wrong, and most sources depict it as pale-green (including all of the previous novels in the series) and that the only sources I could find that depicted it as metallic were a handful of images in _Collected Visions_ he wrote a very brief reply citing artistic licence. And don't get me wrong, this isn't a catastrophic mistake or a huge issue. But it does demonstrate that when an author gets it wrong there doesn't seem to be a fail-safe - no one to tell them: "hang on a minute pal, their armour is supposed to be green". If there was, these issues wouldn't arise. 

I'm trying not to be too critical of the authors themselves here, because as far as I understand it (and I could be very wrong), the authors pitch their ideas to their editors and when green-lighted it is down to them to ensure continuity and consistency by either their own research/knowledge of the lore, their liaising with fellow authors, or by the infrequent heresy meetings. I don't necessarily think that every author's idea for a publication, little or large, should be discussed and democratically agreed upon (artistic licence after all), but there doesn't seem to be any central organisation which they can rely on to alleviate the majority of these mistakes. Seriously, just let me proof-read the final drafts and I'll solve most of these issues. :laugh:


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

It's honestly a mess, from my perspective. But I'm 99% sure I'm viewing the whole thing differently to how Black Library and its author team would like me to. Whether my opinion is the actual reality of the situation, or whether it's a struggle to convey the complexity of the story onto paper, or whether it's a clash of prose/storytelling styles, I don't know. But yes, there's certainly a strong sense of disappointment from me, who’s been following the series on-and-off since 2006.

As mentioned, there hasn't _really_ been a 'golden age' for the Horus Heresy. The period of releases between Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons was quite dry in my opinion, with the odd oasis such as Legion. I think the growing restlessness from a portion of the community is simply a product of the increased number of releases, more than anything.

Speaking for myself, there's a good 10 novels I would be happy to reread. Out of the 30-40 the series currently offers, along with a ferry full of supplementary material, that isn't a great track record.

However, the reality us long-term fans have found ourselves in is this: Black Library's Horus Heresy series is not (and, frankly, has _never_ been) some sweeping classical epic bound up in a book or two, in the same style as War and Peace or Romance of the Three Kingdoms (granted, I would’ve preferred that). Instead, I believe it’s a serious push to open up the 30k setting, like a big box full of Lego, to create a measure of the richness of the 40k setting, with a loose sense of forward momentum and a generally acknowledged endpoint.

Is that a good strategy for producing consistently mesmerising novels? Probably not. But you can't deny how the popularity of 30k characters, armies and general lore has gone through the roof since 2006. It's helped revitalise the wholesale IP, I think, and has generally given fans of models or novels or whatever 'more shit to do and enjoy.'

And besides, great novels are still being produced.


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## 40kBookReviews (Aug 24, 2014)

I definitely get the feeling that GW either never intended the HH books to run for so long or they simply failed to plan out how the series should pan out.

The first books were all very coherent and told a single captivating story. Then it feel like GW discovered that they had created a massive fanbase for this semi-new universe that they could milk dry if they just kept the books coming indefinitely.

The big problem is that we were lead on to believe that each book would progress the story of the Heresy in a meaningful manner and GW is obviously not too keen to get to the later parts of the Heresy like the Siege of Terra, probably due to concern that interest would rapidly drop off after this climax point.

I really loved the first Heresy books and I could even accept and enjoy a few diversions from a strict chronological progression, but at this point I'd really wish that GW would just get on with finishing the main story arch and then they can continue to push out books in the HH series for all I care.
The worst part is that I still buy pretty much every Heresy novel, which just goes to show the effectiveness of this "milking the reader" strategy.


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## Zinegata (Jan 25, 2012)

The issue is that the Heresy is in actuality a multi-year war; but the abridged version tends to go from "the great betrayal sequence" (Drop Site Massacre, Calth, etc) right to the Siege of Terra, which actually lasts for only a few weeks.

So strictly speaking the massive expansion of the series to fill in the multi-year gap between the big betrayals and the Siege of Terra is something that we should have expected. The problem is that the abridged version tends to skip this whole period because a lot of it is actually pointless to the overall story - everyone knows that Horus will reach Terra and it will be there that mankind's fate will be decided. 

So what we are getting are either battle novels, or pieces that attempt to expand the fluff of specific legions. And quite frankly, I think that by this point everyone is already partial to several specific legions / characters, and thus would see any books depicting the other side (often in a positive light) as being either inconsistent or jarring. If you're a Thousand Sons fan, you're probably not gonna like Prospero Burns while you'll love _A Thousand Sons_. (As someone who isn't partial to either side, I actually enjoyed both - for reasons in my conclusion)

There are some novels that walk attempt to walk the tight rope, like _Betrayer_, which tries to have it both ways. The problem still is that perspective is not necessarily a substitute for story-telling.

For instance... I know some people like Lorgar and ADB's depictions of him; but ultimately I'm of the opinion that Lorgar's an idiot. He let his own cowardice and fear of mortality rule him, which is why he keeps searching for "God" even though it led him to worshiping psychotic sentient warp storms (I loved that description of the Chaos Gods in the book). I don't find him to be a terribly compelling character.

It's really down to ADB's skill at open-ended descriptions that all of Lorgar's attempt to justify himself in the novel to Guilliman can be taken as either a sincere personal revelation, or just more whining self-justification revealing his fundamental weakness of character (and taken as the latter; Betrayer becomes quite satisfying for me). The problem with that approach however, is that it doesn't really move the story forward - they're musings and opinions of specific characters; not really a tale of characters actually doing things to change the world. 

(I mean, really, all Betrayer added to the big picture is that we know Lorgar will probably use the two super-battleships to make an invasion of Terra possible in the face of Battlefleet Solar's inevitable massed firepower; and that Angorn was now a Daemon Prince. Not a whole lot of movement plot-wise; but a lot of musing and opining about specific characters)

For me - and this is what the series needs more of - are novels that have a compelling self-contained story of their own. Know No Fear for instance is surprisingly self-contained; and actually has a proper and satisfying resolution to the novel's central conflict - contrary to Abnett's typical abrupt endings. It only moved the entire arc by inches, but it can be read on its own and still be pretty satisfying.

On the other hand, Damnos was self-contained and was pretty much just soulless bolter porn; so maybe they really are just filling out the damn series unnecessarily.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

People have to realize that the horus heresy is a huge event and there is so much to cover. There is 18 legions for Pete sake! Each legion needs to fleshed out and while I agree a few novels add nothing, the majority are needed. I can guarantee if any legions get little treatment, fans if that legion would be in an uproar


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I think the other problem is that whilst it's good to flesh all the legions out, it's frustrating (more with the less known legions I.e. Alpha Legion, White Scars etc) when instead of being given character and interesting depth, they are fleshed out with total bollocks. Because at that point even the 'necessary' books feel unnecessary.


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## 40kBookReviews (Aug 24, 2014)

Garviel loken. said:


> People have to realize that the horus heresy is a huge event and there is so much to cover. There is 18 legions for Pete sake! Each legion needs to fleshed out and while I agree a few novels add nothing, the majority are needed. I can guarantee if any legions get little treatment, fans if that legion would be in an uproar


I don't necessarily disagree that it is acceptable that the Heresy books should be a very big series, but I think that the way the first handful of books were written and fitted into each other gave the distinct impression that we would get told a slowly progressing story that was themed around some central characters.

Instead some of the novels started doubling back on events and most gave up completely on following the story of the established main characters of the first books.
I don't mind all these "flavor books" so much, but I really wish there was a focus on advancing the main story of Horus and his advancing plans on attacking Terra and killing the Emperor.

I'm not particular interested in hearing about each and every single legion. I'm interested in hearing about how Horus came close to destroying the entire Imperium and left it forever scarred and altered.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The one time there was an interesting character concept that's come up in the last dozen books, if not more, and they killed the Iron Hand Commander Atticus off - and it was in no way a Loken moment, where those who are aware of the Heresy prior to reading go on knowing exactly what will happen (and, as typical, expect him to survive as he's the hero). When Loken "died" it was of impact because he had "died", as had Tarvitz, and all of those characters you'd grown to like were killed off intentionally.

For those who came to the Heresy series, you saw the beginnings of "the War in Heaven" (not the Necron one, the Christian allegory one), and the eventual death and madness of the legion to which you saw as the all perfect heroes who you come across in the Historical novels. They are the noble but hard, no bullshit taking straight talkers who can dance around the foppery of the Emperor's Children or the berserker madness of the World Eaters. They are the true alpha males that many heroes ascribe and aspire to be in many a non Black Library novel. Then they went psycho/killed.

Edit - and even then, we've still not truly seen what the SoH are capable of without Chaos support outside of the FW books. I can't be the only one who desires a return to the days of the Great Crusade to learn about the legions.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> People have to realize that the horus heresy is a huge event and there is so much to cover.


We do realise that. That's why a lot of people are pissed off at the apparent random crap that keeps coming out that have nothing to do with the main story arc. The books below are the ones I feel need never have been written, and add next to nothing to the series. If someone took up the series right now and didn't bother reading these, can anyone really disagree that they wouldn't be miss out on anything crucial in the series?Some I'm sure will disagree, others might feel there should be more on the list.

Descent of Angels,
Battle for the Abyss,
Fallen Angels,
Nemesis,
The Outcast Dead,
Promethean Sun,
Brothers of the Storm,
Corax: Soulforge,
Tallarn: Executioner,
Ravenlord,
The Damnation of Pythos.

I didn't include the many audios and shorts that are also pretty pointless.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I'll be one of those people that disagree then. Some of those novels have information contained within that does answer a few questions we'd otherwise be asking.

Descent of Angels: what actually created the rift between the Lion and Luther and why was Luther kept on Caliban?
Battle for the Abyss: What are Abyss class vessels such a threat and why was Lorgar so confident about them?
Nemesis: Why did the Emperor and Horus not try to assassinate one another?
Outcast Dead: Did the Emperor know how events would play out or was he ignorant until the end?

Like I said though, only a few questions and only for some of those books. By and large a lot of those stories added even lessthan the above four; and they only added tidbits themselves.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> We do realise that. That's why a lot of people are pissed off at the apparent random crap that keeps coming out that have nothing to do with the main story arc. The books below are the ones I feel need never have been written, and add next to nothing to the series. If someone took up the series right now and didn't bother reading these, can anyone really disagree that they wouldn't be miss out on anything crucial in the series?Some I'm sure will disagree, others might feel there should be more on the list.
> 
> Descent of Angels,
> Battle for the Abyss,
> ...


I 100% agree that those novels are not nesesary for the series. All I am saying is that each legion needs to be done justice. That requires a lot if material.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> People have to realize that the horus heresy is a huge event and there is so much to cover. There is 18 legions for Pete sake! Each legion needs to fleshed out and while I agree a few novels add nothing, the majority are needed. I can guarantee if any legions get little treatment, fans if that legion would be in an uproar


I don't have a problem with there being a lot to cover and I think the series was a perfect opportunity to work on each of the legions. However, its the lack of organisation that seems to be the problem. Irrelevant story lines, boring story lines, inconsistent story lines. A huge opportunity squandered. 

Its not about how much they are covering. It's all about the quality of how they are doing it.
Take Fear to Tread for example. Yes, we need to have the Blood Angels covered and the plot of trying to turn them is a good one, sets us up for the fight we know is coming. But look how badly it was done. Someone should be controlling this stuff more. 

Look at Mark of Calth. Probably the book most people were looking forward too after Know no Fear and ouch, the book that needs to be another brilliant novel turns in to a bunch of hit and miss short stories. Talk about a massive fail. 

Anyway. Doesn't really matter anymore. It's got to the stage where I feel it's not value for money so unless someone gives me them as a gift I won't be spending £30 a pop anymore. (Audiobooks). I have Aurelian still to listen too and unless I can get my hands of unabridged versions of the 2nd, 3rd and 5th books, I think I'm done.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Stephen74 said:


> I don't have a problem with there being a lot to cover and I think the series was a perfect opportunity to work on each of the legions. However, its the lack of organisation that seems to be the problem. Irrelevant story lines, boring story lines, inconsistent story lines. A huge opportunity squandered.
> 
> Its not about how much they are covering. It's all about the quality of how they are doing it.
> Take Fear to Tread for example. Yes, we need to have the Blood Angels covered and the plot of trying to turn them is a good one, sets us up for the fight we know is coming. But look how badly it was done. Someone should be controlling this stuff more.
> ...


You make a good point of lack of organization. It does feel like it is jumping from timeline to timeline. The quality of the books is open to interpretation depending on personal preference. To me it's dan, adb, some mcniell, and wraight that are the stars. And don't give up on it! It's a sad day when a fellow horus heresy fan bows out


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Garviel loken. said:


> All I am saying is that each legion needs to be done justice. That requires a lot if material.


I agree, since the vast majority of 40k players will at some point have collected a Marine army and have their favourite legion. So the volume of material doesn't bother me too much.

The problem is when "your" Legion gets dumped with a shitty author and terrible book. Witness Descent of Angels, Fear to Tread and Deliverance Lost. The last one pisses me off the most, because it isn't a book about the Raven Guard, it's actually a book about the Alpha Legion with some cameos from Corax. I think Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and maaaaaybe Imperial Fists are the only Legions that have been done justice with depth of character and individuality from the other legions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

darkreever said:


> I'll be one of those people that disagree then. Some of those novels have information contained within that does answer a few questions we'd otherwise be asking.
> 
> Descent of Angels: what actually created the rift between the Lion and Luther and why was Luther kept on Caliban?
> Battle for the Abyss: What are Abyss class vessels such a threat and why was Lorgar so confident about them?
> ...


This is very true. Its something I've had to come with terms with really. Even the books I most hate I would have to agree gave out some interesting information. Still though, couldn't help but feel disappointed at a lot of the pointed out works. The Dark Angels series for example... I liked a lot... but I also felt some disappointment with. Maybe the best way I could describe it is being let down or perhaps there were certain ideas that needed to get out and were forced in particular novels with bad stories.


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## Count_the_Seven (May 19, 2010)

Where are the Death Guard? 30 books in, only fleeting glimpses across the series and a sideshow in Flight of the Eisenstein?

Where are the Death Guard and Mortarion?


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Edit - and even then, we've still not truly seen what the SoH are capable of without Chaos support outside of the FW books. I can't be the only one who desires a return to the days of the Great Crusade to learn about the legions.


This I totally agree with.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I agree, since the vast majority of 40k players will at some point have collected a Marine army and have their favourite legion. So the volume of material doesn't bother me too much.
> 
> The problem is when "your" Legion gets dumped with a shitty author and terrible book. Witness Descent of Angels, Fear to Tread and Deliverance Lost. The last one pisses me off the most, because it isn't a book about the Raven Guard, it's actually a book about the Alpha Legion with some cameos from Corax. I think Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and maaaaaybe Imperial Fists are the only Legions that have been done justice with depth of character and individuality from the other legions.


You're right. 

However, the problem with using the quality of individual novels as a legitimate criticism of the series is that quality is subjective. A lot of people on these forums tend to have roughly the same opinion of what the 'bad' novels are, but many people also like some of said novels. I could criticism certain novels for hours, but then other people will turn around and say "well, I liked it", which is fine. 

It also doesn't help that the 40k fan-base is batshit crazy, and everyone is scrambling for a book about 'their' Legion to be written, and written well. This leads me nicely into my next point:



Garviel loken. said:


> People have to realize that the horus heresy is a huge event and there is so much to cover. There is 18 legions for Pete sake! Each legion needs to fleshed out and while I agree a few novels add nothing, the majority are needed. I can guarantee if any legions get little treatment, fans if that legion would be in an uproar


If this was a conventional novel series, there would be no reason or need to "flesh out" all 18 Legions by giving them 'their own' novel. But because this is 40k and each and every Legion has hordes of fans wanting to see their Legion "fleshed out" in writing by a good author, it's almost as if BL feel compelled to do so. Could BL have organised the Heresy series along the lines of how the first 3-5 books were and just followed Horus and his Legion with supporting characters from other Legions only as and when the central plot line dictated? Probably. Would it have been better? I don't know. But I guarantee loads of us would have been crying out for novels focussed on other Legions and events. 

We also need to ask ourselves what is BL trying to achieve with this series? Is it just a simply intending to tell the story of Horus? Or is more about expanding the 30k universe almost to the scale of the 40k universe? I imagine it's the latter, and if so, they have achieved that. Look at how much information and how many characters we now have based in 30k compared to pre-2006. I think a fair bit of what we've been given (plots and characters) is a load of shite but I have also solidly enjoyed around a third of the novels. The series has effectively created a whole new Games Workshop/BL universe to explore.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Sethis said:


> I agree, since the vast majority of 40k players will at some point have collected a Marine army and have their favourite legion. So the volume of material doesn't bother me too much.
> 
> The problem is when "your" Legion gets dumped with a shitty author and terrible book. Witness Descent of Angels, Fear to Tread and Deliverance Lost. The last one pisses me off the most, because it isn't a book about the Raven Guard, it's actually a book about the Alpha Legion with some cameos from Corax. I think Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and maaaaaybe Imperial Fists are the only Legions that have been done justice with depth of character and individuality from the other legions.


I'm lucky because my legion, the ultramarines, have been IMO best represented so far


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You're right.
> 
> However, the problem with using the quality of individual novels as a legitimate criticism of the series is that quality is subjective. A lot of people on these forums tend to have roughly the same opinion of what the 'bad' novels are, but many people also like some of said novels. I could criticism certain novels for hours, but then other people will turn around and say "well, I liked it", which is fine.
> 
> ...


My thoughts also


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## Kalamoj (Nov 8, 2013)

Since the series grew big, I can forgive a few bad books, and some inconsistencies here and there (they usually minor, so who cares).
In my opinion BL done the most damage to the HH series. It became a collector's nightmare with the miriad formats, ebook, audios. Currently it's not possible to put a nice full collection onto your shelf.
I'm pretty forgiving but putting BotS into the Legacies of Betrayal is a new low.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Thinking about my biggest problem is the lack of news we hear. If black library could release a timetable of releases it would make it much easier to plan and budget for what we want. I currently have no idea what or when the next novel is.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

BotS is in Legacies? Where did you read that? From when I saw the stories featured in it, they were all unique.

Oh wait, no I'm thinking of Death and Defiance. That sounds annoying though.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

BotS? Sorry, I'm lost.


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## Kalamoj (Nov 8, 2013)

Angel of Blood said:


> BotS is in Legacies? Where did you read that? From when I saw the stories featured in it, they were all unique.
> 
> Oh wait, no I'm thinking of Death and Defiance. That sounds annoying though.


Here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legacies-Betrayal-Heresy-Graham-McNeill/dp/1849708371/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410531741&sr=8-1&keywords=legacies+of+betrayal



Vaz said:


> BotS? Sorry, I'm lost.


Brotherhood of the Storm,I was lazy sorry.
I loved the book, but it's still a cheap move if true.


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Vaz said:


> BotS? Sorry, I'm lost.


Brotherhood of the Storm.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

18 shorts??? Just how short are they going to be??


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> 18 shorts??? Just how short are they going to be??


Exactly! And Quality? Thats one thing that vexed me about even thinking about trying to get the last Limited Edition Novela by Anthony Reynolds. I actually do respect that author, however I'm just not sure how significant this stuff is going to be considering they have a track record of putting a lot of mediocre stuff out.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

2006 had 3 HH novels.
2007 had 3 HH novels.
2008 had 3 HH novels.
2009 had 1 HH novel (and 1 anthology).
2010 had 3 HH novels.
2011 had 2 HH novels (and 1 anthology).
2012 had 3 HH novels (and 2 anthologies).
2013 had 5 HH novels (and 1 anthology).
2014 had 2 HH novels (and 1 anthology).
And because all of those anthologies (and even Scars, which was a novel) are being pre-released as individual audios, novellas, and short stories, we're constantly getting a stream of new HH releases. The end result is that it's impossible to keep up with the series.

I suspect the apparent quality drop is down to the authors themselves getting confused about what's being published by each other.

I mean, the stories we're getting right now are fine, and fleshing out 30K (yes, it's been over eight years since the series began - but hey, A Song of Ice and Fire fans have to wait about that long for a single book to come out). The problem, besides quality (and the only recent HH book I've read that I was disappointed in quality-wise was Unremembered Empire), is simply the management of the series and to an even greater extent the rest of BL, which collapsed in 2012 or so.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

VulkansNodosaurus said:


> 2006 had 3 HH novels.
> 2007 had 3 HH novels.
> 2008 had 3 HH novels.
> 2009 had 1 HH novel (and 1 anthology).
> ...


Wow, we got really spoiled in 2013. HH has had a slow year in 2014 with only Vengeful Spirit moving the story along. Damnation wasn't a bad book; it was well-written but totally unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Legacies is probably my least looked forward to anthology yet. 

2015 is looking up though. Master of Mankind, Crimson King and possibly that unnamed Death Guard novel. With the DG done, I think pretty much every legion has had a novel dedicated to them. IG hasn't but they will get their moments during the Siege. NL as well...but just read ADB's Night Lord trilogy and that's more than enough. Plus I think ADB said he has a HH NL book coming. (Nightfall?)


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

sadLor said:


> 2015 is looking up though. Master of Mankind, Crimson King and possibly that unnamed Death Guard novel. With the DG done, I think pretty much every legion has had a novel dedicated to them. IG hasn't but they will get their moments during the Siege. NL as well...but just read ADB's Night Lord trilogy and that's more than enough. Plus I think ADB said he has a HH NL book coming. (Nightfall?)


_Master of Mankind_ almost definitely won't be in 2015, since I've not started it yet. I'm not really feeling the urge to write any Heresy stuff at the moment. That could change on a whim, obviously, but it depends on scheduling and inspiration when it comes time to pitch. 

And _Nightfall_ is an idea, rather than a scheduled intention - it's a story I'd like to tell, but I'm not in any rush, and when it drops also depends on the series' timeline.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> sadLor said:
> 
> 
> > 2015 is looking up though. Master of Mankind, Crimson King and possibly that unnamed Death Guard novel. With the DG done, I think pretty much every legion has had a novel dedicated to them. IG hasn't but they will get their moments during the Siege. NL as well...but just read ADB's Night Lord trilogy and that's more than enough. Plus I think ADB said he has a HH NL book coming. (Nightfall?)
> ...


In regards to master of mankind, will it involve any of the knights errants? I am interested to see where their story goes


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _Master of Mankind_ almost definitely won't be in 2015, since I've not started it yet. I'm not really feeling the urge to write any Heresy stuff at the moment. That could change on a whim, obviously, but it depends on scheduling and inspiration when it comes time to pitch.
> 
> And _Nightfall_ is an idea, rather than a scheduled intention - it's a story I'd like to tell, but I'm not in any rush, and when it drops also depends on the series' timeline.


Well - thanks for the heads up Aaron. This means that next year, actually like 2014 will suck in a HH novel range. Again. 
It's starts to be disappointing. 

And if to count the unknown time of the 'Warmaster' and 'Penitent' releases - it all leads to the conclusion that we will get a whole bunch of reprints 

At least, we will save the money then, for the 2016


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## Kalamoj (Nov 8, 2013)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _Master of Mankind_ almost definitely won't be in 2015, since I've not started it yet. I'm not really feeling the urge to write any Heresy stuff at the moment. That could change on a whim, obviously, but it depends on scheduling and inspiration when it comes time to pitch.
> 
> And _Nightfall_ is an idea, rather than a scheduled intention - it's a story I'd like to tell, but I'm not in any rush, and when it drops also depends on the series' timeline.


Well, that's bad news. HH is doomed, people don't even want to work on it.


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## foostick (Oct 17, 2014)

We might see a shift on the Limited Edition novella front, the last two haven't sold out and are still available on the BL website.


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