# Ultramarines evil?



## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Well on the weekend me and two friends of mine *One works for relic* where talking and we noticed somthing....

Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets are demon weapons! at first we thought it odd then it all make's sense....he refuses to take them off or allow them to be examined, he punched an avatar and killed it with ease (Fulgrim's sword anyone?) not to mention the ultramarines are the only chapter to break the codex astarius by having there own space ports, and calgar sits with the high lords of terra! And the codex states "No space marines will have political influence" and so on.....anyone else think its interesting that the ultramarine's enforce the codex only when it suits them? but if anyone else does not they raise hell!:ireful2:


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## Tanrel (May 8, 2008)

Lol, I'm going with the Batman thing. Someone has to do the dirty work. XD I'm personally biased, though. I really like the Relictors fluff.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I like your thinking Witch-King my Friend. 

I always thought Guilliman was a usurper following the Heresy, and now thinking about it theres more evidence to have a pop at the Ultramarines!

From the information we have on the Gauntlets its perfectly plausable, perhaps even likely that they are Daemon-Weapons. When I read that he never allows anyone to inspect them (or another source i've read is that they simply can't be penetrated to be inspected) I thought something fishy was going on! And also they were originally taken from a Chaos Champion aswell, making it even more likely that there corrupted!


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I like your thinking Witch-King my Friend.
> 
> I always thought Guilliman was a usurper following the Heresy, and now thinking about it theres more evidence to have a pop at the Ultramarines!
> 
> From the information we have on the Gauntlets its perfectly plausable, perhaps even likely that they are Daemon-Weapons. When I read that he never allows anyone to inspect them (or another source i've read is that they simply can't be penetrated to be inspected) I thought something fishy was going on! And also they were originally taken from a Chaos Champion aswell, making it even more likely that there corrupted!


Yup! Dirty Hieratic! the inquisition will deal with him!:laugh:


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Lion El'Johnson's sword was also a Daemon weapon and he could use it both in and outside of the warp.

Interesting find though.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

foulacy said:


> Lion El'Johnson's sword was also a Daemon weapon and he could use it both in and outside of the warp.


Huh......?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

_'he refuses to take them off or allow them to be examined_'

Well he can take them off, no Techmarine or Tech-Adept has been able to pierce them to examine their inner workings but they have been extensively examined externally. 

_'the ultramarines are the only chapter to break the codex astarius by having there own space ports, and calgar sits with the high lords of terra! And the codex states "No space marines will have political influence"'_

Calgar (as Master of the Ultramarines, the Progenitor Chapter for 3/5 of the Astartes) is referred to as the most influential Chapter Master but he doesn't sit alongside the High Lords. All Space Marine Chapters have political influence by their very power and semi-autonomous nature!
And all Chapters that have a homeworld have a Space Port...how else would they leave the planet?


Oh and what about Logan Grimnar's Axe? Claimed (or reclaimed) from a Chaos Champion.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Huh......?


I think he means Fulgrim......


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Tanrel said:


> I really like the Relictors fluff.


the old good one, or the new crap one?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Suppose it was only a matter of time until someone came and saved the Ultramarines from our abuse 



Baron Spikey said:


> Well he can take them off, no Techmarine or Tech-Adept has been able to pierce them to examine their inner workings but they have been extensively examined externally.


Still a bit fishy though!

Aside from that Calgar wields huge amounts of influence and power compared to any other Chapter Master, just carrying on with Guillimans Usurping of Power I guess (I guess im just popping at the Ultramarines because I dont like them )


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> I think he means Fulgrim......


No, I am pretty sure it was the Lion when I was reading it, IIRC.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Huh......?





foulacy said:


> No, I am pretty sure it was the Lion when I was reading it, IIRC.


nope lion does not have a demon weapon =/ that has been Conformed in the current fluff at least. How ever The Young Librarian in fallen angel's does! (its made out of a demons fang ffs!) could you have mixed the swords up?:scare:

Fulgrim on the other hand was given the demon weapon by horus.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> nope lion does not have a demon weapon =/ that has been Conformed in the current fluff at least. How ever The Young Librarian in fallen angel's does! (its made out of a demons fang ffs!) could you have mixed the swords up?:scare:
> 
> Fulgrim on the other hand was given the demon weapon by horus.


Hmm the recent fluff on him I read must be wrong then, yeah I knew Fulgrim had one.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Oh well at least we all know the ultramarines will be the next Traitor legion


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## TheWarsmith (Apr 5, 2009)

me and all my friends think the ultramarines in general are fishy... and over used... they are like the poster boys for the SM most things of SM you see has ultramarines involved just look at the SM section on GWs site. They are all cool and holy in their pictures but when they dont have pics on them they are down and dirty EEEEVIL!


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

Hmm.... Papa Smurf was a traitor all along..... Death to the Ultrasmurfs!!!!!!!!


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Pretty much, if a primarch couldn't tame a demon weapon no way in hell a chapter master can!


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

SM chapters break rules all the time, ever hear of Dark Angels or Black Templars?


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> SM chapters break rules all the time, ever hear of Dark Angels or Black Templars?


Ya but the dark angels are Dirty Heretics.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

All of the Space Marine chapters are falling to Heresy, anyway.

I mean, really, just look at the Blood Angels and there whole "Honestly, Inquisitor, we have no idea what happened to your predecessors. Are you sure they didn't get lost on the way back somehow? Still, it's a shame you had to come all the way out here because nothing suspicious is going on..." thing which they have going on. Then there's the Space Wolves with the 13th Chapter and the Wolfen.

So Marneus Calgar walking around with special weapons which can't be examined but which everyone insists are _perfectly safe and not heretical at all_ is just really par for the course.


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## Eliphas (Jun 23, 2009)

Part of the reason the Ultramarines control so much, is that the Imperium gave these areas to them, because it was becoming to difficult to protect adiquetly.


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

Did Marneus obtain them or are they Ultramarine hand me downs?


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Ya but the dark angels are Dirty Heretics.





solkan said:


> All of the Space Marine chapters are falling to Heresy, anyway.
> 
> I mean, really, just look at the Blood Angels and there whole "Honestly, Inquisitor, we have no idea what happened to your predecessors. Are you sure they didn't get lost on the way back somehow? Still, it's a shame you had to come all the way out here because nothing suspicious is going on..." thing which they have going on. Then there's the Space Wolves with the 13th Chapter and the Wolfen.
> 
> So Marneus Calgar walking around with special weapons which can't be examined but which everyone insists are _perfectly safe and not heretical at all_ is just really par for the course.


sorry guy's but i'm gonna have a rant. for starters dark angels are NOT!!!!! heretics:angry:. secondly the sons of sanguinis (who incidently is the most amazing primarch apart from ferrus manus) are one of the most loyal and exemplry chapters in the imperium, cursed with visions of their nobel primarch's last moments causing these brave warriors to become trapped in the past with the only escape through death. and what are you on about?! the space marines are the most loyal organisations (barring the inquisition and the eclesiarcy) in the imperium its only that when a chapter or squad turns traitor its much more of a threat than even an entire regiment of the guard and so is better publisized. Oh and even the smurfs (and i hate them as much as anyone) arent traitors even if calgar is one of the most over powerd charecters in the game.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Eliphas said:


> Part of the reason the Ultramarines control so much, is that the Imperium gave these areas to them, because it was becoming to difficult to protect adiquetly.


More like Guilliman the Usurper and the Ultramarines just took the areas they now control! unish:


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

The region of space around Macragge was already a "stellar empire" when the crusades reached them. They were allowed to maintain thier semi-autonomy by pledging to be the defenders of that area. They are one of the only areas of space that survived the dark times and came out ahead. To this day they can manufacture and maintain thier own legion and many regiments of standard IG.

Marneus isn't evil, he is just setting the UM's up for thier own sessesion when the time is right. Besides Guilleman is slowly healing, when he is ready he will wake up and take them gauntlets anyway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mrrshann618 said:


> The region of space around Macragge was already a "stellar empire" when the crusades reached them. They were allowed to maintain thier semi-autonomy by pledging to be the defenders of that area. They are one of the only areas of space that survived the dark times and came out ahead. To this day they can manufacture and maintain thier own legion and many regiments of standard IG.


I was joking more than anything, but that doesn't stop Guilliman being a Usurper during the Scourging. 



mrrshann618 said:


> Besides Guilleman is slowly healing, when he is ready he will wake up and take them gauntlets anyway.


No he is not slowly healing! He is in statis, frozen at the point of death. It is impossible to heal in statis. The Reports of him slowly healing comes from Pilgrims who visit Guilliman, the Human mind sees what it wants to see.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Scolatae, you have a valid point to which I must answer. I have unfairly called into question the good name of the Blood Angels.

I apologize to the Blood Angels for confusing them with the Dark Angels. My intention had been to call into question why it is that the Dark Angels are conducting their own little secret inquisition and why anyone would think that anything but very bad thing to do.

On the other hand, when the PDF codex includes the phrase "The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse..." I think most neutral observers would agree that there is a problem. If it's a "Gift from the Emperor" instead of the result of some heresy, flaw in the geneseed or other corruption, then why is it being kept a secret?

So, again, I apologize for unfairly calling the Blood Angels into question on the wrong point. I should have called the Blood Angels into question for their own failings, rather than the failings of some other tainted chapter.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

solkan said:


> Scolatae, you have a valid point to which I must answer. I have unfairly called into question the good name of the Blood Angels.
> 
> I apologize to the Blood Angels for confusing them with the Dark Angels. My intention had been to call into question why it is that the Dark Angels are conducting their own little secret inquisition and why anyone would think that anything but very bad thing to do.
> 
> ...


Oh i'm not saying that the red thirst is a gift from the emperor far from it i'm saying that the blood angls don't all suffer from the red thirst and that the chapter has its own way of dealing with this (death company). the thirst is one of the reasons i like the chapter as it adds an element of tragedy to them and makes them mistrusted by those they protect. as far as i can tell its not caused by a flaw in the original blood angels seed but by the seed that they were forced to extract from sanguinis's body after the rest myseriously dissappeared:biggrin:.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

interesting theory, i haven't read any ultramarines novels but in the comic book fluff (Defenders of Ultramar) Marneus and his boys are portrayed as goody two shoes


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> interesting theory, i haven't read any ultramarines novels but in the comic book fluff (Defenders of Ultramar) Marneus and his boys are portrayed as goody two shoes


Yea they always are. Shame really, they could have so much more character about them. 

I find it the same with most Loyalist Legions that why I prefer the Traitor Legions theres actually a sense of character and personality rather than just "For the Emperor..."

Mainly why I despise the Ultramarines they are just so dull and straightforward!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yea they always are. Shame really, they could have so much more character about them.
> 
> I find it the same with most Loyalist Legions that why I prefer the Traitor Legions theres actually a sense of character and personality rather than just "For the Emperor..."
> 
> Mainly why I despise the Ultramarines they are just so dull and straightforward!


true that, speaking of the loyalist legions I'm more of a Dark Angels fan 

and I really wish they'd expand more on the Iron Hands fluff, I should get my hands on a copy on the BL novel from a few years back


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yea they always are. Shame really, they could have so much more character about them.
> 
> I find it the same with most Loyalist Legions that why I prefer the Traitor Legions theres actually a sense of character and personality rather than just "For the Emperor..."
> 
> Mainly why I despise the Ultramarines they are just so dull and straightforward!


we loyalists here resent that and i will answer these allegations however i do have to agree with the traitor legions having immense character (especialy the tragic tale of the thousand sons). the loyalists (smurfs exemt) have tons of character look at the blood, dark angels and the space wolves all these chapters and their have their interesting flaws and subsequent background so i fail to see how you can accuse them (smurfs again excluded) of having litte character.:grin:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

scolatae said:


> space wolves all these chapters and their have their interesting flaws and subsequent background so i fail to see how you can accuse them (smurfs again excluded) of having litte character


space wolves, pshhh, they're nothing but a bunch of werewolf vikings who only think of battle, now Dark Angels have some depth to them


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

scolatae said:


> Oh i'm not saying that the red thirst is a gift from the emperor far from it i'm saying that the blood angls don't all suffer from the red thirst and that the chapter has its own way of dealing with this (death company). the thirst is one of the reasons i like the chapter as it adds an element of tragedy to them and makes them mistrusted by those they protect. as far as i can tell its not caused by a flaw in the original blood angels seed but by the seed that they were forced to extract from sanguinis's body after the rest myseriously dissappeared:biggrin:.


Uh huh, uh huh. Primarch gets killed by evil traitor bad guy, gene seed gets extracted and there are mysterious problems with it, and that couldn't _possibly_ be the taint of Chaos. unish:

It makes me wonder whether the Emperor is spinning in his throne at times, it does.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I for one like to read some BL books dedicated to those tragic Chapters called traitor (Like Red Corsairs) because they failed to pay the planetary tiths, and destroyed a ivestigating fleet, and attacked a second, and then pillaged and raid the Maelstrom area. That doesnt make them bad guys. just interesting.

Seriously I need to pick up the Soul Drinkers, sounds like good stuff there.


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## trog (Apr 6, 2009)

lets follow Gargamels idea and hunt down sum smug little smurfs:grin: the guantlets were taken from a chaos follower after the heresy. It is belived as imposable as it sounds that yes guilliaman is healing even in status. Fulgrim gets the demon Weapon that he uses to kill Ferrus in a temple on the Planet lear (can't remember the proper spelling). after that he get the athame from horus. the Lion just has a big sword while Zarthrel has a sword made from the fang of a Calabanite lion.


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## Shadow Hawk (Apr 26, 2009)

Wasn't it obvious the Ultramarines are evil?
There's no need to make a thread stating the obvious:biggrin:


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## ijs1337 (Sep 2, 2009)

Much as I would like to tell you off, Witch-King, looking at the history of the Gauntlets of Ultramar, it's possible that they could be daemon weapons. However, to suggest that Calgar and the Ultramarines are secretly Chaos-aligned is jumping to conclusions.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

ijs1337 said:


> Much as I would like to tell you off, Witch-King, looking at the history of the Gauntlets of Ultramar, it's possible that they could be daemon weapons. However, to suggest that Calgar and the Ultramarines are secretly Chaos-aligned is jumping to conclusions.


Telling off? thats not nice!

Calgar is a Horus repeat im pretty sure. Go Go Chaos!


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Telling off? thats not nice!
> 
> Calgar is a Horus repeat im pretty sure. Go Go Chaos!


OBJECTION :ireful2:

All the evidence against the Ultrasmurfs is purely circumstantial. 

I would also like it added to the record that those who think the Dark Angels are traitors need to read more of the current fluff and not that god awful novel Angels of Darkness :grin:

As for the gauntlets....I don't think so. They were reclaimed by Gulliman himself if I remember which means it probably happened right after the heresy, hell it may have happened before they even went into the eye of terror. 

Overall it's kinda daft trying to say the Smurfs or the Angels (Blood and Dark) are traitors. Thats like saying the Black Legion et al are going to come steaming to the Imperium's defence and ask for 10'000 years back pay :mrgreen:


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

That's all I have to say.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> OBJECTION :ireful2:
> Thats like saying the Black Legion et al are going to come steaming to the Imperium's defence and ask for 10'000 years back pay :mrgreen:



Why do you think Abbaddon has been trying so hard to conqure Cadia, He wants his DAMN MONEY :laugh:


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## Forty (Aug 3, 2009)

Two things...

1. Without the "goody two-shoe" approach of the Ultramarines other chapters wouldn't stand out as much. The vanilla state of the Ultramarines sets the underlying tone for all SM chapters, which any of us that play them, draw from. As much as I wouldn't make a Ultramarine army, I see their necessity for the game and story.

2. If they are actually "usurpers" or "potentially becoming tainted or are already tainted by Chaos" then wouldn't that make them the ultimate bad guys? Wouldn't that make them the 'end all, be all' owners of a traitorous storyline? 


If you guys are right in thinking they really are traitors in waiting, I'll be the guy laughing at you at your local GW retailer as you buy $1000 worth of "Sons of Guilliman" or "Gargamel's Smurf Legion" models.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Why do you think Abbaddon has been trying so hard to conqure Cadia, He wants his DAMN MONEY :laugh:


Pffff should have gone Union then.


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