# Curze - the master tactician (spoilers)



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

Very interesting...

I've just finished reading the awesome _Savage Weapons_ and one thing that struck me was that the Lion (you know, the master tactician) with his full legion wasn't able to outmanouvre Night Haunter and his Nightlords. 

Quote (Lion El Johnson):
_"For every victory we claim, Curze gifts us with a loss in return. It is not a hunt, Alajos."_

The Lion tried for over two years but makes no progress... Does this mean that the Lion was having a bad day, sorry, a bad couple of years :grin: or does it mean that Konrad is _also _a master tactician?

Any thoughts? 


As a side note I must also give praise to Mr. "How-do-you-spell-his-name" :grin: . With the exception of his severe character assassination of the Emperor in _"The First Heretic"_ (incidently the worst character assassination I've witnessed since Denethor in the movie _"the Return of the King"_), his stuff is just awsome. _"Savage Weapons"_ cemented his place as my favorite BL author.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think it simply means that for every battle the Lion won in his pursuit of the Night Haunter, the latter gave him the slip and a nasty bruise or two to discourage him from continuing. 

All the Primarchs were brilliant tacticians but Kurze was not noted as being exceptional amongst his brothers. His strengths lied in other areas.


----------



## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I think it just implies that overall the two legions were pretty equal, and had different strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> All the Primarchs were brilliant tacticians but Kurze was not noted as being exceptional amongst his brothers. His strengths lied in other areas.


Exactly, which is why I find _"Savage Weapons"_ so interesting. Surely the Lion should have been able to corner or out-fight the Night Haunter over a period of two years?

One, perhaps far fetched, interpretation of that story is that the Warp is what initially stopped the Dark Angels, but that the actions of the Night Lords is what continued to keep them away from the upcoming siege (see page 407). I mean, they have almost five more years to try to get to Terra. 

In a way, it would have been quite funny if all loyal legions rushed to Terra, only to have to wait there for another six or so years before Horus started his assault... :grin:

Cheers


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No matter how smart or brilliant you are in warfare, you can still get kited along for an indefinite period.

And the Lion was brilliant don't get me wrong but as I said so were all the Primarchs in their own way.

I don't think the warp had anything to do with it.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

When you're on the defense, your options are never as open as when you're on the offense. El'Jonson can't afford to just go after his target. Rather, he has to try to keep as many options open as possible whilst, at the same time, committing himself to defending, holding, retaking and hunting. Compared to Kurze, who can basically strike where and when he pleases. It does seem, at this point, the forces of Horus are more concerned with destruction and destabilising the Imperium; retaining resources and worlds seems to be well down their list of things-to-do.
So, what I'm trying to get at is that, yes, all Primarchs are genius at warfare, in their various ways. The Lion may very well be able to defeat Nighthaunter if the conflict centres around something both want, or want to deny the other; but it's much more nebulous than that, with the NL seeming to want to just make their loyalist brethren work and to cause carnage and to make their loyalist victims think that declaring for Horus is going to make the horror stop. Nighthaunter is winning because he's got the conflict going to his tune, which is a massive advantage in war. Jonson has the doublely difficult task of not just reacting, but forcing the crusade's paradigm to change so that he is making Nighthaunter react. Until El'Jonson manages this, then he won't be able to make his genius really count and defeat the NL.

GFP


----------



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

The two year campaign that the book explains, is that both both NL and DA were fighting to take control of a sector of forge worlds. Both wanted them captured and in their control for the war effort, this short story to me showed that Curze tactical skill was much greater then I ever gave credit before.

Also I take it that Curze gift of extreme foresight likely also turned the tides of war.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> The two year campaign that the book explains, is that both both NL and DA were fighting to take control of a sector of forge worlds. Both wanted them captured and in their control for the war effort, this short story to me showed that Curze tactical skill was much greater then I ever gave credit before.
> 
> Also I take it that Curze gift of extreme foresight likely also turned the tides of war.


I agree. The funny thing is that we judge the Primarch's skills at evidence from literature before the Heresy. But now that they are fighting one another its another story.

What I noticed about about the Night Lords in many descriptions of their fighting skills, (keep in mind, all written by ADB) is that they are really good at manoevering against their enemies. Their little skirmishes in _Soul Hunter_ and even in _Blood Reaver_, it seemed they were pretty good at manoevering their ships against the entire Huron Fleet.

_Savage Weapons_ just goes to show you that they were pretty tactful with how they wage war. Of course, the crazy bastards of chaos, get little to know credit for being tactful.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree. The funny thing is that we judge the Primarch's skills at evidence from literature before the Heresy. But now that they are fighting one another its another story.
> 
> What I noticed about about the Night Lords in many descriptions of their fighting skills, (keep in mind, all written by ADB) is that they are really good at manoevering against their enemies. Their little skirmishes in _Soul Hunter_ and even in _Blood Reaver_, it seemed they were pretty good at manoevering their ships against the entire Huron Fleet.
> 
> _Savage Weapons_ just goes to show you that they were pretty tactful with how they wage war. Of course, the crazy bastards of chaos, get little to know credit for being tactful.


True that. WEs are potrayed as "CHARGE, CHARGE, BLOOD!!!!" and to a degree thats true, but they are responsible for nearly taking Armegeddon or Dominion of Fire where they rage across Imperial Space for 2 centuries! Takes some kind of taticalness...

Night Lords from their book are very tatical, and are the real force Responsible in taking the Marines Errant Fortess. A small squad of First Claw infiltrated and cause the distraction while the Raptors disable the shields. After that Huron attacked with Termies and did the simple work. Hell the Nightlords beat back the BAs that everyone wants to scream instawin. 

Then you have books like Storm of Iron as well as a few UM books that show Iron Warriors in all their awsomness of Tatical Siege Warfare. 

Then the Word Bearer Novels show how awsome the fanaticaly faithful WBs are also Tatical geniouses in their attacks and problem solving. For gods sake read First heretic people, the WBs cause the whole fukin HH!!! 

Chaos gets no love outside the devoted books.


----------



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I think in part this conflict of who is the tactical gnius and who is nit, and subsequently when a piece of fluff defies this sparks a storm ofcontroversy, is in part due to that in prior years people did not have the horus heresy. They only had slight passing descriptions of the primarchs, tidbits here and there, 2d descriptions. And thuspeople took what little details they had and expanded them to give them personality, such as curze being insane and jonson being a tactical genius.

However with more books coming out detailing heavily upon the primarchs, conflictions have arose. The writters portrayal of the primarchs with that of the prior fanbase constructed portrayal of them.

Of course conflictions will arise, there was so few details about most of them that the personalities we know at large about the primarchs were fiction constructed by the playerbases.

This book just goes to highlight how little we know about some of the primarchs, that curze is not purely a sadistic insane individual,but rather a highly intelligent, tactical and strategic general who was able to defeat the lion in a two year campaign between only the two of them. The lion was unable to secure the sector off forgeworlds, unable to destroy curze and most importantly took equal if not more loses then the nightlords.

Johson praised for being the tactical master, was shown that he is not, and rather that he does have personality, fears, faults. While curze was some what praised in this book, was shown he is a force of strategy to be reckoned with who in my opinion out did the lion.

Why do I say curze defeated the lion in a two year campaign? Because unlike a previous post which states curze kitted the lion fortwo years, and the lion was at a disadvantage on the defense is inccorect. The short story is that both the lion and curze are locked away in a distant sector fighting for a large quantity of forgeworlds there. Neither is inherently on the defense, both are in the same position, they need those forgeworlds, functioning and manned. Howver if curze forced the lion to go on defesnse, and then forced the lion to be kited by him, that is a clear showing of curze's tactical and strategic skill.

By the end of the war, the lion became so desperate and frustrated he called curze out for a one versus one duel to the death. Curze did not initiate this, but the lion did seeing as he likely knew if the war dragged out he would only continue to weaken over time. And even in the one versus one, where the lion had the advantage in sword play, curze forced the lion to fight on his playing field, and would have killed the lion if not for the interference.

In the end the lion abandoned the sector, and curze captured it.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

First, I want you guys to think about Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator  and Hannibal Barca.

Consider, while doing so that, though Fabius' strategy was instrumental in containing and defeating the Carthaginian, it is Hannibal who is remembered as one of the "great captains of antiquity".

Of course, I'm not arguing that their case was a direct parallel of the two warring Primarchs. The Lion and Curze have similarly-sized forces and are maneuvering through vast amounts of space. By contrast, Hannibal had far less men than Rome could field and Fabius was actually refusing battle and keeping his forces within fortified cities that Hannibal was unable to siege.

Having said all that, here is a simple outline of the situation. The Lion had X forces. There were Y planets in this subsector he and Curze were fighting over. Clearly, Curze did not want to commit to decisive battle. Also clearly, the number of planets was such that the Lion's forces were not numerically great enough to seize them all simultaneously. Given these two conditions and there being no additional/outside factors (e.g., reinforcements), the Lion--strategic genius aside--could not force a conclusive victory. Speaking on purely mathematical terms, Curze could simply go where the Lion could not be.

"Savage Weapons" makes it rather clear that Curze did just that. Hence, the Lion's frustration. Curze's main consideration was to maintain situational awareness of where the Lion's forces were. To do so he probably divided his forces greatly, so as to maintain sufficient scouts, advance warning elements, pickets, etc. But he could afford to do so. Legiones Astartes are vastly superior to ordinary men, and thus he could put worlds unprotected by the First Legion while ensuring he would not be surprised by the Lion.

Curze was a cunning warlord, and, being a Primarch, undoubtedly a genius. That having been said, his strategy does not lead me to believe he was the Lion's better. He did a brilliant job of keeping the Dark Angels occupied and harrying those they sought to protect, but he never proves his ability to defeat the Lion--merely his ability to avoid him... which was not that great a feat, nor unique in history.

In response to Jerushee, I'd like to point out that (IIRC, at any rate) we're not actually told what happened after the two duelled. The Lion reveals that Guilliman has sent a call to him, but it is one he actually refuses. So I'm not sure one can make safe assumptions as to how the conflict actually ended.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

In the end it is all subjective as to who was the superior general, I for one interpreted it that curze was engaging the lion and not running from him. Particularly where it states that for every victory they took a loss, this can be interpreted in a myriad of ways and thus wil always be open to subjectivity for one to color to best fit theirown perception of the lore so as not to contradict I and thus upset the buyer at their favorite primarch (who they most likely identify with most closely), and thus reduce their statistical liklihood of buying another book.

However the ending is stated quite clearly, the lion receives the message, states he believes there is another who believes they are succesor to the throne. However it does not state anywhre he refuses the call to go to terra, in fact we know he does go to terra, a bit late. Thus he did leave the sector, did not capture the forgeworlds and thus was unsuccessful in the campaign.

Curze states that the lion will be remembered as a fence sitter, which as some have theorized, was curze using his foresight to allude to how we the readers come to view him. Because the traitors do not see him that way nor do the loyalist, only the readers do, which I found amusing as it indirectly states curze's foresight was so powerful he could break the 4th wall of fiction.

Additionally, the lion states he was unable to capture a majority of the forge worlds and for all intents and purposes had exhausted all strategy, losing a war of attrition. Thus why he called curze out to duel, curze had no problem with the war continuing, the lion however did.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Jerushee said:


> By the end of the war, the lion became so desperate and frustrated he called curze out for a one versus one duel to the death. Curze did not initiate this, but the lion did seeing as he likely knew if the war dragged out he would only continue to weaken over time.


You need to reread the story.

And as I said, any military genius can have his enemy slip from under his grasp. It does not diminish the Lion's military capabilities, it's just that Curze or any enemy is simply able to elude him. 

They were in space, there are only so many things even a military genius can do with a 80,000 ton piece of metal while on the ground, one's choices are almost limitless.

In regards to Curze's gift of foresight, to my knowledge it has not be described as something he willingly is able to summon like the Emperor perhaps back in his prime or Magnus. Rather the visions choose when to come to him and so far, again unless someone proves me wrong, Curze's foresight only warned him of what the future held for the Imperium and himself. For example, he knew when the assassin M'shen entered the area of space where he chose to build his fortress. 

While it would seem convenient that Curze was able to dodge the Lion due to his foresight, I would think ADB would have included that nugget of information in his short story simply to make Curze seem even more badass than he already is but rather he chose to depict Curze as being able to elude one of the greatest loyalist tacticians by skill and guile alone or just with a ton of luck.

Also, the Lion to me is a military genius with a cold, robotic-like logic while Curze is more emotional, capable of reading his brother's intentions simply by virtue of personally knowing him. 

It's like how in Superman's eyes Batman (lulz) is potentially the most dangerous hero of the JLA simply because he knows the weaknesses and secrets of every single member of the organization.



Jerushee said:


> Curze states that the lion will be remembered as a fence sitter, which as some have theorized, was curze using his foresight to allude to how we the readers come to view him. Because the traitors do not see him that way nor do the loyalist, only the readers do, which I found amusing as it indirectly states curze's foresight was so powerful he could break the 4th wall of fiction.


Nah man, it's just that Curze is so well acquainted with betrayal and how those you serve may cast you aside and call you a monster and so he saw the Lion in a potentially similar situation hence why he was able to so accurately determine the fate of the Lion's reputation in the near future.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> In the end it is all subjective as to who was the superior general, I for one interpreted it that curze was engaging the lion and not running from him. Particularly where it states that for every victory they took a loss, this can be interpreted in a myriad of ways and thus wil always be open to subjectivity for one to color to best fit theirown perception of the lore so as not to contradict I and thus upset the buyer at their favorite primarch (who they most likely identify with most closely), and thus reduce their statistical liklihood of buying another book.
> 
> However the ending is stated quite clearly, the lion receives the message, states he believes there is another who believes they are succesor to the throne. However it does not state anywhre he refuses the call to go to terra, in fact we know he does go to terra, a bit late. Thus he did leave the sector, did not capture the forgeworlds and thus was unsuccessful in the campaign.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. Because the Lion eventually does decide to go to Terra. Basically the Lion abandons his first perspective of how he should fight the war for the Imperium. 

Of course, you could always say the fight in this sector was just the Lion's way of seeing the goods in his very desperate situation being stranded in that sector by the storms.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Jerushee,



> I for one interpreted it that curze was engaging the lion and not running from him.


From "Savage Weapons":

_"For twenty-six months I have chased him. For twenty-six months, he has fled from me, burning worlds before we arrive, crippling supply routes, annihilating Mechanicum outposts."_

_"You have chased me for two years, across a hundred battlefields, and why do we meet now? Because I allow it."_

What you described in your posts has to do with Curze's results in terms of his counterattacks. I'm not denying he's doing that well; I'm stating that, given the logistical and numerical limitations imposed on the Lion, it's historically proven that Curze could wage such a campaign _without necessarily being the better tactician._



> However the ending is stated quite clearly, the lion receives the message, states he believes there is another who believes they are succesor to the throne. However it does not state anywhre he refuses the call to go to terra, ...


That's not true, though:

_'Orders?' Corswin asked, feeling his heart beat faster. 'A summons?'
'Neither. We will not abandon the Thramas Crusade until these systems are ours. The Imperium lives and dies by what we do here in the deepest reaches. Defending Terra means nothing if the rest of the empire is ash.'_

At that point, the Lion reveals his feelings about Guilliman. In no way do his comments imply that he will be quitting the field.



> ... in fact we know he does go to terra, a bit late. Thus he did leave the sector, did not capture the forgeworlds and thus was unsuccessful in the campaign.


No offense, but that's complete conjecture.

The only thing we know for a fact is that (A) the Warp prevented the Lion from returning to Terra and that (B) at some point that effect subsided, since he was able to do so. We also know that he did so at the side of Russ and the Space Wolves.

Knowing these things, it becomes highly improbable that Curze--who was unable to defeat the Lion and admits to fighting a running battle from him--would somehow be able to defeat TWO Legions.



> Additionally, the lion states he was unable to capture a majority of the forge worlds and for all intents and purposes had exhausted all strategy, losing a war of attrition.


It's not a battle of attrition.



> Thus why he called curze out to duel, curze had no problem with the war continuing, the lion however did.


That's not true, though. It's plainly stated that Curze reached out to the Dark Angels to set up a rendezvous. Curze sought to at least try to sway the Lion to their side, but it's naive to assume that he was just going to let him go if he said no. Likewise, the Lion would have been an idiot to not try to end Curze then and there.

Beyond that, obviously Curze had no problems with the status quo continuing--had he not received instruction from Horus to pass on those words. And obviously the Lion was frustrated. That having been said, and as previously stated, this sort of situation does not necessarily denote the better tactician. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> Jerushee,
> 
> 
> Jerushee said:
> ...


Well to be honest, for all we know, Curze had the same logistical and numerical limitations. In fact, the Nightlords had fought Astartes at Istvaan V, so might have suffered higher casualties than the Dark Angels prior to this campaign.

It seems that the Lion really wanted to catch Konrad Curze, the individual. He seems less interested in the Nightlords Legion. To me, that is a clear sign of frustration. Perhaps the Lion, considering his reputation, felt he should have been able to win this with relatively little effort and in a much shorter time span?

Cheers


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@nopain: Well he did mention that a legion without their Primarch would crumble (with the exception of the Alpha Legion), it was more a symbolic rather than military goal.

He was frustrated not because his reputation was at stake but rather the longer he spent in the Eastern Fringe, the harder it would be to reach Terra and help his father.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Well to be honest, for all we know, Curze had the same logistical and numerical limitations.


Sure, but not the same objectives as the Lion, and thus not the same difficulty.



> It seems that the Lion really wanted to catch Konrad Curze, the individual. He seems less interested in the Nightlords Legion. To me, that is a clear sign of frustration.


I think it's natural for a commander to focus on another commander when he plays such a big role in the opposing army. Or even for soldiers of an army to focus on the enemy commander--look at Rommel in World War 2, for example. The fact of the matter is that, superhuman and amazing as the Legiones Astartes are, they cannot win against an army of their own when led by a Primarch. The Lion thus naturally focuses on taking out their lynchpin.



> Perhaps the Lion, considering his reputation, felt he should have been able to win this with relatively little effort and in a much shorter time span?
> 
> Cheers


I don't think that's necessarily alluded in the story, but anything is possible I suppose. The Lion is shown to be too calculating, too pragmatic, and too rational to make such leaps in terms of strategy (IMHO).

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

They both had the same objective, capture the sector of forgeworlds for the war effort, each had the same difficulty, neither had a inherent advantage in the war of that sector.

However Kurze was in my opinion coming out on top by the end of that war. Each has their own way of reading the material due to ADB purposely writing his books as neutral as possible.

Each had the near entirety of their legion, each had the same objective which was to capture the sector of forge-worlds, neither had any inherent advantage at the start of their isolated war in the east. 

What we do know, is that The lion could not gain an advantage over Curze, we also know that their victories were about even, we also know that at some point the lion abandoned the sector and left for Terra. 

We know he received the call from the ultramarines to head for terra, we know that he made a comment of the likes "It seems horus is not the only one who believes the throne is his". It did not state that he abandoned the sector then and there, but since we know that the ultramarines arrived at terra shortly after the boarding of Horus's flagship, and the wolves and DA arrived simultaneously, we know that the Lion either abandoned the sector immediately after that call or shortly after.

Additionally, the Lion likely lost that sector to Curze due to the fact that we know he met up with the Wolves who were inbound to terra from Prospero. The wolves did not take a detour to the galactic east to help the Lion, thats the opposite direction, we also know for fact the Wolf King would not choose the lion over his father in terms of who to help. Thus the wolves coming to help the Lion is farfetched to not likely at all, secondly we know that the Wolves only survived their encounter with the alpha legion post prospero due to an unknown force intervening, which likely was the Dark Angels seeing the path they would have to take to terra from the galactic east.

We also know they didnt delay and stay and fight the Nightlords due to that they arrived at the same time the UM and Wolves did.

Thus in likelyhood, using source material of what we know as fact that happened in the time line, the lion received the call, abandoned the sector, met up with the wolves, fought up the AL, arrived at Terra.

Additionally, we know that the Nightlords post war of Terra, were cited at being entirely intact and at full legion strength, legion for legion they were unopposed and thus why the entire assassins corps were dispatched. Meaning the Darkangels likely took more loses in their war with the Nightlords then the nightlords did fighting the Dark Angels.

This short story is a great piece of fluff for dispelling the notion that some hold that the nightlords are the least suited legion to fight other astartes. It detiled pretty well in the short story how much they tore up the Dark Angels (astartes) in direct combat and tactics.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Isn't it all much easier then this? don't they all have an opposite number?

World Eaters and BAs
Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists
Black Legion and Ultrasmurfs

Does that make sense or shall I elaborate?


----------



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Hellados said:


> Isn't it all much easier then this? don't they all have an opposite number?
> 
> World Eaters and BAs
> Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists
> ...


I've wondered who the opposite of the Nightlords are for some time, and it seems fluff points towards the DA, as you so outlined it nicely.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I would actually venture to say their opposite is more the Raven Guard for hit and run tactics, similar to the Night Lords with the exception of the terrorizing aspect.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*SPOILERS BELOW.*



Jerushee said:


> They both had the same objective, capture the sector of forgeworlds for the war effort, each had the same difficulty, neither had a inherent advantage in the war of that sector.


Actually, given the strategies mentioned for each Primarch, that's not necessarily true. It would appear the Lion felt it was necessary to secure to sub-sector so as to bolster the Imperial war effort. Curze appears to have been content to _prevent_ that from happening, fomenting an ongoing guerilla war, keeping an enemy Legion occupied, etc.

Constantly evading your foe is not necessarily an easy proposition. Doing so when your foe only has (potentially) dozens or even hundreds of starships over huge swathes of space? Not so impossible a task.



> However Kurze was in my opinion coming out on top by the end of that war.


I'm not really sure about this. In fact, the way the story is written, I thought it was rather heavily implied that the stalemate shown was due to Curze's refusal to take the field against the Lion.



> Each has their own way of reading the material due to ADB purposely writing his books as neutral as possible.


Which is why I hesitate to read any one side being closer to victory. 



> Each had the near entirety of their legion, ...


Well, we know that was the case for the Dark Angels. The Night Lords, on the other hand? It's not stated, one way or another.



> ... each had the same objective which was to capture the sector of forge-worlds, neither had any inherent advantage at the start of their isolated war in the east.


See above. There is an absolute advantage to be had when fighting a war the way Curze did, and when rejecting the traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare.



> What we do know, is that The lion could not gain an advantage over Curze, we also know that their victories were about even, we also know that at some point the lion abandoned the sector and left for Terra.


_With the Wolf,_ which adds a whole new wrinkle to this situation. "Abandon" implies a defeat, and when you add the Space Wolves to the mix, now we're implying that Curze somehow handed both of those Legions a loss... improbable at best, IMHO. 



> It did not state that he abandoned the sector then and there, but since we know that the ultramarines arrived at terra shortly after the boarding of Horus's flagship, ... we know that the Lion either abandoned the sector immediately after that call or shortly after.


I had not gotten that impression from the Ultramarines' IA article:

_"Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus. The war had been won by the time Guilliman's warriors reached Terra, but the Imperium was in turmoil."_

In fact, it would be difficult to reconcile your proposal with the "Age of Darkness" short story on the Ultramarines. The Wolf and the Lion got to Terra almost literally right after the duel between Horus and the Emperor. By contrast, Guilliman's entire scheme is predicated on NOT being at Terra purely because _he doesn't expect the Imperium to survive._

Thus, the idea that the Lion's timing had something to do with Guilliman's call does not reconcile with what we know. Guilliman's interest in the Lion is due to his interest in ensuring the second Imperium survives, and because the Dark Angels are a largely intact Legion. The Lion, on the other hand, indicates that he has no interest in Guilliman's agenda and resolves to stay. Their time-lines and separate arrivals at Terra are therefore unrelated. The Lion's, again, is based on the Wolf's own actions and the presence of a second Legion in that theatre of operations seriously casts doubt on a Night Lords victory.



> Additionally, the Lion likely lost that sector to Curze due to the fact that we know he met up with the Wolves who were inbound to terra from Prospero. The wolves did not take a detour to the galactic east to help the Lion, thats the opposite direction, we also know for fact the Wolf King would not choose the lion over his father in terms of who to help. Thus the wolves coming to help the Lion is farfetched to not likely at all, ...


Here's the thing, though, Prospero occurs before Isstvan V, which occurs before "Fallen Angels", which occurs before "Savage Weapons". The point being, months--if not years--have passed since "Prospero Burns" and given that we know the Lion changed locations at least twice during that period (Shield Worlds, Diamat, Eastern Fringe), we can't simple assume that Leman Russ remained static/in close vicinity to Prospero during that entire time.



> ... secondly we know that the Wolves only survived their encounter with the alpha legion post prospero due to an unknown force intervening, which likely was the Dark Angels seeing the path they would have to take to terra from the galactic east.


The Wolves were being harried by the Alpha Legion. Their survival was not due to their unexpected help. In fact, the Alpha Legion IA article indicates that only a single Company (Great Company?) of the Wolves was engaged by the Alpha Legion. This makes me hesitate to assume this was the big meeting between the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves.



> We also know they didnt delay and stay and fight the Nightlords due to that they arrived at the same time the UM and Wolves did.


Again, not sure where you got that the Ultramarines arrived near the same time as the Dark Angels the Space Wolves. 



> Additionally, we know that the Nightlords post war of Terra, were cited at being entirely intact and at full legion strength, legion for legion they were unopposed and thus why the entire assassins corps were dispatched. Meaning the Darkangels likely took more loses in their war with the Nightlords then the nightlords did fighting the Dark Angels.


No offense, but can you cite your sources for this (their strength levels, that is).



> This short story is a great piece of fluff for dispelling the notion that some hold that the nightlords are the least suited legion to fight other astartes. It detiled pretty well in the short story how much they tore up the Dark Angels (astartes) in direct combat and tactics.


No... not really. What it does state is that neither Legion lost when led by their Primarch. And it shows how two Night Lords ganging up on one Dark Angel are able to win after one of them loses an arm... never mind the fact that one of the Night Lords also happens to be _First Captain of the entire Legion._ :wink:

It IS a great piece of fluff, though!

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I believe the opposite to the Night Lords is the Raven Guard imo, especially after Night Haunters little confrontation with Corax in The First Heretic. 

The Dark Angels "opposite" in my opinion is the Space Wolves, not sure whether it's necessary that opposites have to on the enemies side so I dunno.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> *SPOILERS BELOW.*
> Actually, given the strategies mentioned for each Primarch, that's not necessarily true. It would appear the Lion felt it was necessary to secure to sub-sector so as to bolster the Imperial war effort. Curze appears to have been content to _prevent_ that from happening, fomenting an ongoing guerilla war, keeping an enemy Legion occupied, etc.
> 
> Constantly evading your foe is not necessarily an easy proposition. Doing so when your foe only has (potentially) dozens or even hundreds of starships over huge swathes of space? Not so impossible a task.


I believe you are making assumptions here based on a mix-up. The Lion is chasing Curze, who seems to consistently evade the Lion. The Lion is not chasing the Nightlords legion. The Lion tried to destroy the Nightlords and/or eject them from the subsector. He might have thought that the only way of accomplishing this was to personally beat Curze on the field of battle.

There is more than one quote that stipulate that the legions gave as good as they took. That, to me, is no guerrilla warfare. The fact is that Curze manages to out-smart the Lion and not vice versa. Every ambush and trap the Lion sets is avoided by Curze. The Lion is clearly frustrated, to the point where he almost contradicts himself. (he does indeed contradict himself if you believe he talks of Konrad and his legion as one entity. My interpretation is that the two are different entities in the eyes of the Lion)



Phoebus said:


> I'm not really sure about this. In fact, the way the story is written, I thought it was rather heavily implied that the stalemate shown was due to Curze's refusal to take the field against the Lion.


I disagree. If the Lion had been a better commander/strategist, then over a period of two years, he should have been able to slowly dominate the Nightlord legion. As it turned out, both legions were always superior when led by their respective Primarchs. I wonder then how Curze could avoid any confrontations with the Lion and still fight him to a draw, legion vs legion. 

My point is, surely some planets are more valuable than others, some battles more crucial than others. Wouldn't it make sense for the Primarchs to be present in the biggest showdowns? If the Lion had the benefit of choosing where to personally attack (and thus assure himself of victory), whereas Curze did not (because he did not want to engage the Lion personally?), wouldn't the Nightlords be at a severe disadvantage? Wouldn't that be like not using your strongest forces for the most important battles?


Phoebus said:


> Which is why I hesitate to read any one side being closer to victory.


I agree  My interpretation of the story is that they seem to be evenly matched. 

The reason for me starting this thread is that I find this to be a bit surprising. I only have old fluff to go by, but I always thought the Lion was one of the very best generals. Over a period of two years, I would expect him to slowly outfight the Nightlords. Sure, the Nightlords would win some battles, but not as many as the Dark Angels. Here it clearly says that they both win as often as they lose. 




Phoebus said:


> See above. There is an absolute advantage to be had when fighting a war the way Curze did, and when rejecting the traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare.


Again, you're making assumptions. The Nightlords were not _"rejecting the traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare"_. For every Dark Angel victory the Nightlords inflicted an equal defeat on them in return. That is impossible to achieve if you're only using defensive hit-and-run tactics. 

Besides, just because it is stated that the Nightlords used these kind of tactics (showing them as sneaky etc.) doesn't mean the Dark Angels did not use them. Any commander worth his salt would try to disrupt the enemy's supply lines. 

And don't tell me that you believe the Nightlords could fight the entire Dark Angels legion to a standstill over a period of over two years without resupplying, taking on new recruits, needing new heavy equipment etc etc.
To use the Lion's own words: _"It's not a hunt"_ 



Phoebus said:


> No... not really. What it does state is that neither Legion lost when led by their Primarch. And it shows how two Night Lords ganging up on one Dark Angel are able to win after one of them loses an arm... never mind the fact that one of the Night Lords also happens to be _First Captain of the entire Legion._ :wink:
> 
> It IS a great piece of fluff, though!
> 
> ...


Yup, great portrayal of the gang mentality of the Nightlords. By ganging up, they did manage to kill the no. 1 swordsman in the Dark Angels legion.

One thing I find very interesting here is that Savatar chooses to help his brother rather than his Primarch. Surely he must realize that Corswain (spelling?) was going to do something nasty to Konrad (which he did). Either Sevatar is supremely confident in his Primarch's abilities, or his desire to finish what he started with Alajos was stronger. Either way, I believe few Astartes would have chosen the same course of action, and risk the life of their Primarch.

Cheers


----------



## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

He was not the finest swordsman in the Dark Angels Legion but one of the best. Corswain himself has beaten Alajos on of the very few who has along with Sevatar.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> I believe you are making assumptions here based on a mix-up. The Lion is chasing Curze, who seems to consistently evade the Lion. The Lion is not chasing the Nightlords legion. The Lion tried to destroy the Nightlords and/or eject them from the subsector.


With respect, I think this is an innaccurate extrapolation of the story's text. The Lion's mission is to secure this vital sub-sector so as to bring its production capabilities to bear for the Loyalists. This would be unattainable if he was chasing a single warlord while ignoring the bulk of his Legion.

Rather, I think it's fairly clear that the story is painting a picture wherein the Lion is trying to consolidate and secure the loyal worlds while putting down rebel worlds _and_ trying to defeat Curze and the Night Lords Legion. As Curze is the focus of the Traitor efforts in the sub-sector there will naturally be an emphasis in defeating him, but to assume that this is in expense of addressing other factors is to ignore what the story has already told us to the contrary.



> There is more than one quote that stipulate that the legions gave as good as they took.


What the story stated specifically is that neither Legion lost when its Primarch was in the battle. This goes hand-in-hand with what I state above: that the Lion was by no means focusing on Curze to the exclusion of his Legion and the worlds of the sub-sector (since, clearly, the only way multiple engagements such as this could only have been fought if his own Legion was divided and spread out).



> That, to me, is no guerrilla warfare.


It was poor word choice on my part. I think a better way of describing my thoughts was my earlier example regarding the Romans actively avoiding Hannibal during the Second Punic War, though even that is not a perfect parallel.

That having been said, it's clear that Curze is purposefully avoiding the Lion--he states as much. Furthermore, the fact that the single example of a loyal world lost to the Night Lords that is narrated to us involves the VIII Legion striking when the Dark Angels are away strongly points to the fact that Curze's stated tactics (melting away before he can be caught, striking where the Dark Angels are absent) are, in fact, his Night Lords' tactics as well.



> The fact is that Curze manages to out-smart the Lion and not vice versa. Every ambush and trap the Lion sets is avoided by Curze.


That's not a matter of out-smarting your opponent, though. That's just a matter of mathematics. As stated earlier, if the Lion has X fleets (for the purpose of this topic, a fleet being a self-sufficient battle-group capable of securing a planet and/or engaging a typical Night Lords equivalent fleet), and there are Y star systems, and X < Y (AND, conceivably, the Warp is acting against the Loyalists), then Curze has an automatic advantage given the fact that his priority is to avoid his enemies.

Think that's unrealistic? Look back to "Fulgrim": Ferrus Manus is frustrated by the Diasporex, who are doing much of the same to him in a region of space defined only by THREE systems. The Lion, by contrast, has to worry about a full sub-sector.



> The Lion is clearly frustrated, to the point where he almost contradicts himself. (he does indeed contradict himself if you believe he talks of Konrad and his legion as one entity. My interpretation is that the two are different entities in the eyes of the Lion)


I'm really not sure what you're driving at here. The concept that a Primarch is at the core of his Legion, its driving force and its personification, is a consistent theme in 30k/40k lore. When the Lion uses "Curze" so that it's almost interchangeable as "Night Lords", it falls under that philosophy. It's not like the Lion is so confused as to assume the Night Lords are running around in one big fleet. Likewise, Curze isn't literally stating he, _alone,_ has been running away from _just_ the Lion.



> I disagree. If the Lion had been a better commander/strategist, then over a period of two years, he should have been able to slowly dominate the Nightlord legion.


No, not at all. See that simple formula above. Why do you think every military historian ranks Hannibal Barca as one of the greatest generals of all time but doesn't bother to mention Fabius? Because while Fabius was crafty, clever, and humble enough to figure out a way to prevent Hannibal from winning, that didn't say anything about his own tactical acumen or battlefield command ability.

Curze knew that, mathematically, the Lion could not pin him down given the resources he had.



> As it turned out, both legions were always superior when led by their respective Primarchs. I wonder then how Curze could avoid any confrontations with the Lion and still fight him to a draw, legion vs legion.


See above. The Lion needed to capture the sub-sector. Curze only needed to prevent him from doing so, and to avoid being pinned down. The fact that Primarchs are so powerful, so inspirational to their Legions, and such battlefield geniuses is precisely why Curze was able to ensure that they could win any time they attacked Dark Angels not commanded by the Lion.

ADB's take on the Night Lords has been consistent. They are terror troops. Astartes, however, are not cowed by their antics like normal humans. Further complicating matters, Night Lords disdain "pointless" pitch combat. What to do then? Precisely what has been described: rely on the fact that the I Legion cannot pin them down (due to sheer amount of space); strike where the Dark Angels are not; or, if necessary, strike where the Lion is not.



> My point is, surely some planets are more valuable than others, some battles more crucial than others. Wouldn't it make sense for the Primarchs to be present in the biggest showdowns?


You can't guarantee where those showdowns are going to be, though. The Night Lords are perhaps the last Legion (close three-way tie with the Alpha Legion and the Ravenguard) who would advertise their intent or be baited into attacking a juicy target.



> If the Lion had the benefit of choosing where to personally attack (and thus assure himself of victory), whereas Curze did not (because he did not want to engage the Lion personally?), wouldn't the Nightlords be at a severe disadvantage? Wouldn't that be like not using your strongest forces for the most important battles?


If it was as simple as that, sure. But it wasn't. There were a great number of worlds, and clearly not enough forces to secure all of them.



> The reason for me starting this thread is that I find this to be a bit surprising. I only have old fluff to go by, but I always thought the Lion was one of the very best generals. Over a period of two years, I would expect him to slowly outfight the Nightlords. Sure, the Nightlords would win some battles, but not as many as the Dark Angels. Here it clearly says that they both win as often as they lose.


The old fluff based those assertions on the number of victories won/worlds conquered/etc. by the Primarchs _during the Great Crusade._ And even then, those stats were skewed: Horus, for instance, was active the longest, so it would have been difficult for him NOT to have the biggest tally. The second the Heresy started, though, all bets were off. No Primarch--not the Lion, not Horus, not Curze--had to fight his equivalent on equal terms before that.



> The Nightlords were not _"rejecting the traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare"_. For every Dark Angel victory the Nightlords inflicted an equal defeat on them in return.


That's... precisely what rejecting traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare entails, though... Curze is basically saying "I don't care if you re-capture what I took from you, since I'm just going to take advantage of the fact your attention is there to take back something else from you." He didn't care about securing objectives permanently; he didn't care about establishing a logistical power-base for Horus; he simply wanted the Lion pinned and a full Loyalist Legion occupied.



> That is impossible to achieve if you're only using defensive hit-and-run tactics.


Actually, that's precisely what he did. He ran when the Lion came, shrugged off the loss of a world, and struck where his enemy wasn't. 



> Besides, just because it is stated that the Nightlords used these kind of tactics (showing them as sneaky etc.) doesn't mean the Dark Angels did not use them. Any commander worth his salt would try to disrupt the enemy's supply lines.


WHAT supply lines? :wink:

These were fleets that were meant to be self-sufficient for years at a time. Even better, they're operating in a sub-sector defined by forge-worlds. Capturing an enemy forge-world would yield ridiculous amounts of supplies for that fleet. Furthermore, not every forge-world there was Loyal. Thus, even if Curze did find himself somehow running short of something, it's a stretch to assume he couldn't get it in short order.



> Yup, great portrayal of the gang mentality of the Nightlords. By ganging up, they did manage to kill the no. 1 swordsman in the Dark Angels legion.


That's not the case. They killed the Ninth Captain. IIRC, Corswain is qualified as being the one out of the two who was exceptional in his skill.



> One thing I find very interesting here is that Savatar chooses to help his brother rather than his Primarch. Surely he must realize that Corswain (spelling?) was going to do something nasty to Konrad (which he did). Either Sevatar is supremely confident in his Primarch's abilities, or his desire to finish what he started with Alajos was stronger. Either way, I believe few Astartes would have chosen the same course of action, and risk the life of their Primarch.


I imagine it was a combination of the latter two. Or maybe all three? Remember, this comes after he admits his punishment indicates he is both traitor and fool. :wink:

Cheers, good discussion!
P.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



High_Seraph said:


> He was not the finest swordsman in the Dark Angels Legion but one of the best. Corswain himself has beaten Alajos on of the very few who has along with Sevatar.


You're right, sloppy of me. I should have used the word _fighter_ and not _swordsman_. According to Corswain, Alajos was the best _fighter _in the Dark Angels legion.

Cheers


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Thought it was alajos himself who said only around 20 astartes across all the legions could beat him(in his opinion) including sevatar, abaddon and corswain


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It was still two on one with one of them being one of the greatest 1st captains.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> With respect, I think this is an innaccurate extrapolation of the story's text. The Lion's mission is to secure this vital sub-sector so as to bring its production capabilities to bear for the Loyalists. This would be unattainable if he was chasing a single warlord while ignoring the bulk of his Legion.
> 
> Rather, I think it's fairly clear that the story is painting a picture wherein the Lion is trying to consolidate and secure the loyal worlds while putting down rebel worlds _and_ trying to defeat Curze and the Night Lords Legion. As Curze is the focus of the Traitor efforts in the sub-sector there will naturally be an emphasis in defeating him, but to assume that this is in expense of addressing other factors is to ignore what the story has already told us to the contrary.


Ah, I may have been unclear. I agree with you that his mission was to secure the Forge worlds. _However_... the involvement of the Curze and his legion meant that the Lion wasn't able to achieve this. He had to refocus in that he needed to defeat the Nightlords before he would ever manage to secure his original objective. 

Curze forced the Lion to do exactly what you assume the Lion did not do, namely to focus too much on Curze himself. Page 374 _"For twenty-six months have I chased him"_ Note the emphasis on _him_].



Phoebus said:


> no pain no gain said:
> 
> 
> > There is more than one quote that stipulate that the legions gave as good as they took.
> ...


Nope. Let me quote again :grin: _"Neither side gave ground without taking it back elsewhere."_ 



Phoebus said:


> It was poor word choice on my part. I think a better way of describing my thoughts was my earlier example regarding the Romans actively avoiding Hannibal during the Second Punic War, though even that is not a perfect parallel.
> 
> That having been said, it's clear that Curze is purposefully avoiding the Lion--he states as much. Furthermore, the fact that the single example of a loyal world lost to the Night Lords that is narrated to us involves the VIII Legion striking when the Dark Angels are away strongly points to the fact that Curze's stated tactics (melting away before he can be caught, striking where the Dark Angels are absent) are, in fact, his Night Lords' tactics as well.


Here you are generalising based on a single example. Let me give you another quote: _"Neither side charged without leaving a vulnerable flank open"_ This means quite clearly that there is a somewhat stable, albeit changing, front. When there is a front there are clear targets. You make it sound like the Nightlords are just running around in their ships. That is not possible if they have a front to sustain. 

When Curze is avoiding the Lion he is simply avoiding the individual, not the Dark Angels forces. Why you say? Most likely because Curze still thinks he can sway the Lion. But before he can do so he needs to show I believe he needs to show the Lion the futility of the later's task. After 26 months the time for a confrontation is apparently ripe...



Phoebus said:


> That's not a matter of out-smarting your opponent, though. That's just a matter of mathematics. As stated earlier, if the Lion has X fleets (for the purpose of this topic, a fleet being a self-sufficient battle-group capable of securing a planet and/or engaging a typical Night Lords equivalent fleet), and there are Y star systems, and X < Y (AND, conceivably, the Warp is acting against the Loyalists), then Curze has an automatic advantage given the fact that his priority is to avoid his enemies.
> 
> Think that's unrealistic? Look back to "Fulgrim": Ferrus Manus is frustrated by the Diasporex, who are doing much of the same to him in a region of space defined only by THREE systems. The Lion, by contrast, has to worry about a full sub-sector.


Oh come on. If it was that simple, then why would the Lion, being the logical pragmatist he is, even try to ambush and trap Curze. What you are describing is simply not realistic from a warfare perspective. Your way of reasoning is the equivalent of saying there is no need that the US engages Japan in WWII because the Pacific is so large and contain so many islands they won't have enough ships. 

We do not know if the Warp is aiding the Nightlords. We don't even know if it is hindering the Dark Angels (it does not seem like it, because none of the characters are blaming it). The only thing we know is that the Warp hinders the Dark Angels from _leaving_ the system and going to Terra.



Phoebus said:


> I'm really not sure what you're driving at here. The concept that a Primarch is at the core of his Legion, its driving force and its personification, is a consistent theme in 30k/40k lore. When the Lion uses "Curze" so that it's almost interchangeable as "Night Lords", it falls under that philosophy. It's not like the Lion is so confused as to assume the Night Lords are running around in one big fleet. Likewise, Curze isn't literally stating he, _alone,_ has been running away from _just_ the Lion.


Let me make it clearer by quoting: 
_"For twenty-six months have I chased him"_ Note the emphasis on _him_].
_"We catch their fleets-... As often as they catch ours."_ 
_"It is not a hunt, Alajos"_
Either the Lion contradicts himself (out of frustration? :grin or he talks of the enemy Legion and the enemy Primarch as two different things. He can't catch Curze, but he catches the Nightlord fleets. The problem is that the Nightlord fleets catch the Dark Angle fleets just as often. 



Phoebus said:


> No, not at all. See that simple formula above. Why do you think every military historian ranks Hannibal Barca as one of the greatest generals of all time but doesn't bother to mention Fabius? Because while Fabius was crafty, clever, and humble enough to figure out a way to prevent Hannibal from winning, that didn't say anything about his own tactical acumen or battlefield command ability.
> 
> Curze knew that, mathematically, the Lion could not pin him down given the resources he had.


I'm sorry my friend, but you're naming the wrong Roman general. Scipio Africanus is the only Roman general who has never lost a battle, including the one he fought against Hannibal at Zama. So why have almost noone heard of him (I bet less than 1% on this forum know about him)? 

Simple, he never tried to immortalize himself, unlike many other great leaders. If you also take into consideration the point in time at which he lived, it is easier to understand his relative obscurity. In addition, the Roman senate was a body prone to jealousy and resentment. Yet another reason for Scipio's obscurity.

It is interesting to think how Caesar would be portrayed by historians had he not written his own memoirs and been succeeded by his adoptive son; a despot and a tyrant who tried to over-throw (and nearly succeeded) the long successful republic that was the Roman Empire? 

My point is, who is famous and who is not may have little to do with reality. If you have a good propaganda machine, like Alexander the Great, you're gonna be famous...



Phoebus said:


> See above. The Lion needed to capture the sub-sector. Curze only needed to prevent him from doing so, and to avoid being pinned down. The fact that Primarchs are so powerful, so inspirational to their Legions, and such battlefield geniuses is precisely why Curze was able to ensure that they could win any time they attacked Dark Angels not commanded by the Lion.
> 
> ADB's take on the Night Lords has been consistent. They are terror troops. Astartes, however, are not cowed by their antics like normal humans. Further complicating matters, Night Lords disdain "pointless" pitch combat. What to do then? Precisely what has been described: rely on the fact that the I Legion cannot pin them down (due to sheer amount of space); strike where the Dark Angels are not; or, if necessary, strike where the Lion is not.


I beg to differ. Another quote :grin:: _"Two years since the VIII and I Legions both found themselves order into the void, feuding over possession of an entire subsector"_. Note the word _possession_. THe Nightlords were there to _take possession_ of the subsector. The combatants had established fronts. They caught each others fleets... 

If the Nigtlords wanted to avoid pitched battles, why would they catch the Dark Angel fleets? Makes no sense...



Phoebus said:


> You can't guarantee where those showdowns are going to be, though. The Night Lords are perhaps the last Legion (close three-way tie with the Alpha Legion and the Ravenguard) who would advertise their intent or be baited into attacking a juicy target.


So you're saying that the other Legions are... _predictable_? That's not really a quality with which you associate a great commander/combat force, is it?  



Phoebus said:


> If it was as simple as that, sure. But it wasn't. There were a great number of worlds, and clearly not enough forces to secure all of them.


So why not focus on the all-important Forge worlds then? See my comment about the Pacific theater above. 



Phoebus said:


> The old fluff based those assertions on the number of victories won/worlds conquered/etc. by the Primarchs _during the Great Crusade._ And even then, those stats were skewed: Horus, for instance, was active the longest, so it would have been difficult for him NOT to have the biggest tally. The second the Heresy started, though, all bets were off. No Primarch--not the Lion, not Horus, not Curze--had to fight his equivalent on equal terms before that.


True


Phoebus said:


> That's... precisely what rejecting traditional objectives and gain-loss definitions of warfare entails, though... Curze is basically saying "I don't care if you re-capture what I took from you, since I'm just going to take advantage of the fact your attention is there to take back something else from you." He didn't care about securing objectives permanently; he didn't care about establishing a logistical power-base for Horus; he simply wanted the Lion pinned and a full Loyalist Legion occupied.
> 
> Actually, that's precisely what he did. He ran when the Lion came, shrugged off the loss of a world, and struck where his enemy wasn't.


First, I realy disagree with your definition on gain-loss.

Second, how can you be so sure he disobeyed Horus's orders? 
Quote: "Two years since the VIII and I Legions both found themselves order into the void, feuding over possession of an entire subsector". Note the word _possession_. THe Nightlords were there to _take possession_ of the subsector. 

That Curze would disregard his mission, by ignoring his objectives, is a huge assumption on your part. Why did you think Horus took close to seven years to reach and attack Terra? Because the Warp hindered him? To give the loyalists a sporting chance? Of course not, he needed to build up his strength. That's why he needed the Nightlords to _take possession_ of the Forge worlds. If all he wanted was for the loyalists to _not_ get them because of the resources and materials they could supply, then why order the Nightlords there? He already knew (as did Curze) that the Warp would hinder any ships from reaching Terra from that system. It would have been much smarter to have the Nightlords aid in the Siege...



Phoebus said:


> WHAT supply lines? :wink:
> 
> These were fleets that were meant to be self-sufficient for years at a time. Even better, they're operating in a sub-sector defined by forge-worlds. Capturing an enemy forge-world would yield ridiculous amounts of supplies for that fleet. Furthermore, not every forge-world there was Loyal. Thus, even if Curze did find himself somehow running short of something, it's a stretch to assume he couldn't get it in short order.


Quote: _"Neither side charged without leaving a vulnerable flank open"_ This means quite clearly that there is a somewhat stable, albeit changing, front. When there is a front there are clear targets. 

You make it sound like the Nightlords are just running around in their ships. That is not possible if they have a front to sustain. If there is a front there must be supply lines, lines of communication etc. 

Even if their fleets were completely self-sufficient (maybe you know more about that than me, i don't know), the Nightlords still need to take on new recruits. 



Phoebus said:


> That's not the case. They killed the Ninth Captain. IIRC, Corswain is qualified as being the one out of the two who was exceptional in his skill.


Uhm, no.  To have managed to beat someone is is a far cry from being the better fighter, i.e. consistentlybeating someone. Read the formualtion closely and you'll see.

Besides, if you are insinuating that Astelan and Corswain are better and only about 20 Astartes can beat Alajos, that would mean that even fewer Astartes would be able to beat the former two.

You can't seriously think that the Dark Angels have 3(!) fighters among the top twenty out of ALL Legions? I was surprised to hear they might even have one. I mean, they're not really known for being a close combat oriented Legion. 



Phoebus said:


> I imagine it was a combination of the latter two. Or maybe all three? Remember, this comes after he admits his punishment indicates he is both traitor and fool. :wink:
> 
> Cheers, good discussion!
> P.


He he, if he would want his Primarch to bite the dust so that he himself would become top dog _and _lose his death penalty that would just be too... I don't know... EVIL :shok:

Cheers, agreed


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Words_of_Truth said:


> It was still two on one with one of them being one of the greatest 1st captains.


Bah, one of them was Nostramo gutter-trash and the other was a traitor and and a fool :biggrin:


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> Thought it was alajos himself who said only around 20 astartes across all the legions could beat him(in his opinion) including sevatar, abaddon and corswain


Ha ha, that's funny. I automatically assumed that it was Corswain who did the narrating, and you automatically assumed it was Alajos.

When I read it again I must say that it isn't clear; it can be either. 

He he, just goes to show what different perspectives can achieve.:wink:

Cheers

P.S. If it indeed was Alajos, maybe he really stunk but just had a poor self image and HUGE ego? :biggrin: D.S.


----------

