# Who is the most noble of the Traitor Legions?



## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

At the time of the Heresy, the Traitors that threw in their lot with Horus were all different. Who then, out of the Traitors, fought for ideals and justice at the perceived threat to Humanity from the Emperor? And did any stay true? 

Opinions please k::victory:


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Potentially Alpharius but otherwise they were pretty much all just evil bastards. Except Fulgrim who was possessed by his daemon weapon.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Wow...interesting question. I would have to say IMO it is a tie between TS and Alpha Legion. TS would have stayed loyal and Magnus appeared ready to just sacrifice himself and the legion so as not overlly damage the Imperium.
The ALpha Legion decided to join for there belief in what the greater vision of the emperor was.

Doc


----------



## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Word Bearers could be a shout? They joined to convert Humanity to the God's worship in order to save Mankind from destruction?


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> Word Bearers could be a shout? They joined to convert Humanity to the God's worship in order to save Mankind from destruction?


I respect your opinion but I feel the word bearers did it out of some sick need to worship any type of higher power.


Doc


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

docgeo said:


> I respect your opinion but I feel the word bearers did it out of some sick need to worship any type of higher power.
> 
> 
> Doc


Not really, they did so to bring truth to the lie of the "Imperium." The Emperor had lied to his most loyal son and then made his look like a complete fool randomly in front of the Entire Imperium. Shaming Lorgar and his Legion.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Not really, they did so to bring truth to the lie of the "Imperium." The Emperor had lied to his most loyal son and then made his look like a complete fool randomly in front of the Entire Imperium. Shaming Lorgar and his Legion.


Yes for worshiping him a a God which he wasn't and spending way to much time in pacifiying planets to force them into said worship. I admitt that the emperor could and should have just took Logar aside and explained it to him. The alternative though.....was to worship demons?

Doc


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

There is nothing noble in heresy...


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Yes for worshiping him a a God which he wasn't and spending way to much time in pacifiying planets to force them into said worship. I admitt that the emperor could and should have just took Logar aside and explained it to him. The alternative though.....was to worship demons?
> 
> Doc


Nope... to worship real gods.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Nope... to worship real gods.


Real as to mean supernatural beings with plenty of power but most people wouldn't want to worship any of the four chaos powers knowing what that would actually mean:

1. Slaanesh - God of Hedonism, Masochism, Sadism, Beauty, Perfection, Addiction, Sex, Wealth, and Psychological Corruption.===*Hellraiser*

2. Khorne - God of Blood, Force, Anger, Bravery, Retribution, unrelenting Fury and War.======*Texas Chainsaw Massacer*

3. Nurgle - God of Decay, Deformity, Neuroses, Necrosis, Pity, Despair, Preservation, Disease and Physical Corruption. =====*Ebola on steroids*

4. Tzeentch - God of Change, Evolution, Subtlety, Mutation, Hope, Magic and endless Schemes and Plots. ======*the lesser evil of the four*

Doc


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Most noble leader kruz/agron.

Most noble chapter thousand sons/alpha legion.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

ts during the heresy tho were corrupted; the whole daemon prince thing happened pre seige i think.

I realise i may get many names for this but i think the night lords or at least curze did. Yes they were not ideals to which we could identify with but they held to their own ideology rather than being ensnared by daemons or their base emotions (world eaters, emperors children). This runs through to soul hunter as well


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> ts during the heresy tho were corrupted; the whole daemon prince thing happened pre seige i think.
> 
> I realise i may get many names for this but i think the night lords or at least curze did. Yes they were not ideals to which we could identify with but they held to their own ideology rather than being ensnared by daemons or their base emotions (world eaters, emperors children). This runs through to soul hunter as well


No...I can see why you would say that. There is something about what he did and how he thought his way was the best for humanity. The problem was the genocide of his world. I still agree in his own way Kurze was noble.

Doc


----------



## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Doelago said:


> There is nothing noble in heresy...


And there's nothing particularly noble about blowing up entire planets due to Heresy either.

There's almost no such thing as nobility in 40k anywhere, people. Well, at least when put on the massive scale of the setting.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

lol thanku; i think the genocide was a natural end to his ideology; his rule of fear failed because once the threat is removed it is natural that people revert (see the results of the sinatra doctrine on the soviet union for an example) and as such he destroyed the world not only because of the corruption of his legion via new recruits but also to demonstrate that not even a primarchs own world was safe should they deviate from his percieved notion of justice


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> lol thanku; i think the genocide was a natural end to his ideology; his rule of fear failed because once the threat is removed it is natural that people revert (see the results of the sinatra doctrine on the soviet union for an example) and as such he destroyed the world not only because of the corruption of his legion via new recruits but also to demonstrate that not even a primarchs own world was safe should they deviate from his percieved notion of justice


I just think it was a bit exteme..lol! He could have gone back and personally saw to some of the changes..he was a primarch.

Doc


----------



## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Magnus and his sons, they were just pursuing knowledge and nearly every other legion hated them for it, they made a mistake they never intended what happened, if the emperor had been honest with magnus and just spoken to his son rather than allowed the council of nikea he could of avoided it all. They didn't ask for their fate, magnus just wanted to save his sons, the only family that he has that still loved him and he gave his soul to Tzeentch for it.




LukeValantine said:


> Most noble leader kruz/agron.


Kurz you could argue, but he was still messed up, he killed every man woman and child on a planet because of its high crime rate. Angron..... I'm sorry but what? As far as we knew he joined horus as he loved brutal war and he knew horus would not try to restrain him or chastise him for his bloodlust. Does this really strike you as a noble leader? I can't help but feel sorry for the war hound legion when they found angron. 'Erm... Mr Emperor..... can we have another primarch, this one seems a little bit.... nuts'


----------



## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I would say the alpha legion as per the heresy books they are following there own agenda.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

to be fair curze was all about going as far as you can go in order to make the moderate ground more appaealing for all concerned (in my opinion of course)
yes blowing up nostramo was a wee bit extreme but logically its the only thing that his ideology would permit as an action; by not adopting curze's actions against those that committed crime the population of nostramo damned itself (in curzes eyes of course).

i sometimes worry i get this world view a little too well


----------



## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

From all i have read so far i find the Alpha Legion the most noble. They had their core aim before heresy that they wanted to continue, the protection of humanity. Albeit the protection of humanity was to help in their destruction. But it was that or a long time of suffering. A decision that could not easily be taken unless thinking about a purpose above themselves.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

since the alpha legion joined for that reason however i would argue they were not true traitors and therefore would actually exclude them from the list; i may of course be horribly wrong though


----------



## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Noble, in the sense that we are talking about is defined as similar to honourable according to : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noble

We all know that Khorne is the god of fighting, blood, bravery, *honour*, combat and general manliness.

What is honour though? 

The same website defines it as personal integrity (Angron is always angry, always pissed off at the Emperor and is dedicated to the god of honour), others as an allegiance to a set of morals (The defining characteristic of Curze, in my opinion, was his set of strict morals. He saw, he judged, then he dealt out the punishment as he saw fit. This was always a characteristic of his.)

I don't know enough about Angron to make a solid argument for how Noble he was, but I do know that Curze kept to his own morals at all times, eventually leading to his own, welcomed, death. If dying for what you believe in isn't Noble, then I don't know what is.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

raider1987 said:


> Magnus and his sons, they were just pursuing knowledge and nearly every other legion hated them for it, they made a mistake they never intended what happened, if the emperor had been honest with magnus and just spoken to his son rather than allowed the council of nikea he could of avoided it all. They didn't ask for their fate, magnus just wanted to save his sons, the only family that he has that still loved him and he gave his soul to Tzeentch for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Kurz you could argue, but he was still messed up, he killed every man woman and child on a planet because of its high crime rate. Angron..... I'm sorry but what? As far as we knew he joined horus as he loved brutal war and he knew horus would not try to restrain him or chastise him for his bloodlust. Does this really strike you as a noble leader? I can't help but feel sorry for the war hound legion when they found angron. 'Erm... Mr Emperor..... can we have another primarch, this one seems a little bit.... nuts'


You obviously know nothing of agron pre heresy, he went nuts because is code of honor and brotherhood was violated by the emperor. I also suspect him joining the heresy had nothing to do with blood lust and everything to do with vengeance.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

My vote is Magnus, Logar, Cruze, and Alpharious/Omegon. 

Logar was very noble, stupid, but noble in the way he didn't want to be a general, but a philosopher. Building perfect worlds. The Emperor fucked with the way he did things and then he went sad and nuts. But even then he was willing to die in a fight with Corax to save his sons.

All Mgnus wanted to do was enlighten humanity and prepare them for the Inevitable change to being all Psykers. Big E again fucked that up by LETTING the Council of Nikea happen the way it did.

Kruze, he was Batman in the 40k. He also knew what the Emperor wanted from him, and this is what drove him mad. The Emp wanted him to be the bad guy, and knew the Emperor was going to off him in the end anyway. Even after allying with Horus and having his Split Personality, he chose to die as Vindication. The Nobler side won out.

Alpharious and Omegon join Horus only to bring about a quick end to Chaos Rule on the Galaxy, sadly they failed, and the Imperium, as well the Galaxy, is doom to the slow Stagnate death that is 40k. 

My votes.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Real as to mean supernatural beings with plenty of power but most people wouldn't want to worship any of the four chaos powers knowing what that would actually mean:
> 
> 1. Slaanesh - God of Hedonism, Masochism, Sadism, Beauty, Perfection, Addiction, Sex, Wealth, and Psychological Corruption.===*Hellraiser*
> 
> ...


lots of people join chaos or ask for the favor of one of the four powers (sometimes unknowingly). Even... must I say? The Emperor. 

The four powers take whatever form they want, and they start off with the noblest of deeds. It could be anything. Look at it in this light.

Slaanesh- To seek perfection in your work place and acceptance amongst your peers.

Khorne- To seek victory for a war you've been fighting for several years. To gain honor for your family. 

Nurgle- To seek relief or strength from the pain you and your family are enduring from famine, a sickness, a disease.

Tzeentch- To seek out knowledge to do something great and momentus for your people.

These powers would not come to you in the form of daemons. They would come in form of probably a voice or another human being. After you get what you want though... then what else? You slowly seek out more and more, endulging yourself with these great things, and soon you lose yourself in extreme lust for one of these four gods. Not knowing what you are truly sacrificing for all the gifts you've gained until its too late, and all you care about are those gifts.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ha, that is like asking me which one is the shiniest shit in the crapper. None of them; each and every chaos legion is just a different flavor of crazy, murderous rage. However, if I were to say one, I would say the Sons because most of their marines aren't even self aware, to my knowledge.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Ha, that is like asking me which one is the shiniest shit in the crapper. None of them; each and every chaos legion is just a different flavor of crazy, murderous rage. However, if I were to say one, I would say the Sons because most of their marines aren't even self aware, to my knowledge.


Trolling for truffles are we?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Trolling for truffles are we?


Wait...... we get truffles? :shok:


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> And there's nothing particularly noble about blowing up entire planets due to Heresy either.


There is! We save their souls by bringing them swift retribution!


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Or damning them 100 times faster, that's right kill em all. They all end up in the same place in the end sinner, and saint alike.


----------



## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

The cruelist answer is none - they all chose the easy way out - none would admit they were wrong, including the Emperor.
None of them looked at the situation and said "I dont want to do this."

Can any of you say the Cabal arent just a another face of Tzeentch, Alpharius might be the most gullible person in the galaxy, he agreed that the only way to beat chaos was to allow the whole human race to become extinct, and he agreed.

But think about - I would rather die than live in a universe ruled by chaos - then serve chaos. You really think you can serve chaos and bring its destruction from within.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> The cruelist answer is none - they all chose the easy way out - none would admit they were wrong, including the Emperor.
> None of them looked at the situation and said "I dont want to do this."
> 
> Can any of you say the Cabal arent just a another face of Tzeentch, Alpharius might be the most gullible person in the galaxy, he agreed that the only way to beat chaos was to allow the whole human race to become extinct, and he agreed.
> ...


Interesting take on Alpha Legion....I am not arguing with you but I would say Hind sight...lol...or reading the booking and knowing the overall out come in 20/20. He likely made a decision based on many of the facts he had at hand right then...or it could be that he is a fictional character and had to turn to chaos.

Doc

Doc


----------



## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'd laugh if in the next chaos codex, the Alpha Legion were followers of Malal (Malice?).


----------



## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

docgeo said:


> Real as to mean supernatural beings with plenty of power but most people wouldn't want to worship any of the four chaos powers knowing what that would actually mean:
> 
> 1. Slaanesh - God of Hedonism, Masochism, Sadism, Beauty, Perfection, Addiction, Sex, Wealth, and Psychological Corruption.===*Hellraiser*
> 
> ...


I think Tzeentch is underestmated here - I see him as the whispering God of politics, who can get a decent politicition to drop an atom bomb or if he refuses, he will whisper in someone elses ear to assassinate him and get the next guy to drop an atom bomb.


----------



## Exile13 (Mar 14, 2011)

MuSigma said:


> The cruelist answer is none - they all chose the easy way out - none would admit they were wrong, including the Emperor.
> None of them looked at the situation and said "I dont want to do this."
> 
> Can any of you say the Cabal arent just a another face of Tzeentch, Alpharius might be the most gullible person in the galaxy, he agreed that the only way to beat chaos was to allow the whole human race to become extinct, and he agreed.
> ...


The real problem with Alpharius is he took the advice of an enemy, even when that advice was to rebel. That would be like some Americans taking advice from Al Qaeda and attacking the pentagon to prevent an extended war with China. So no he's not noble, he's a paranoid fool. I would have to say Kruze or maybe even Angron. The emperor killed everyone Angron knew to force him to fight for him. He may have gone a little too far with his thirst for revenge, but in a way he was justified.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Cabal most certainly were not the enemy. 

Were they afraid of saying the cold hard truth? Nope.

Humanity and chaos were deeply connected at that point, Chaos invested so much into humanity that if mankind was taken out of the equation, Chaos would cease to exist/be a threat.

I'm sure the Cabal knew that if Alpharius took this route and if everything went according to their visions, then some remnants of humanity would undoubtedly exist. 

It's just that for humanity, it was a lose/lose scenario if Horus won or if the Emperor won for the only thing that would change is how long it would take for Chaos to rule.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I would say the Alpha Legion and the Thousand Sons.
Alpha because they became involved with the Cabal and were trying to "save" humanity or cause the least amount of damage. 
Sons because they were always "loyal" to the Imperium and the Emperor. Sure their methods were seen as heresy and using magic but they did it for the "greater good" (lol Tau reference)

@Weapon "I'd laugh if in the next chaos codex, the Alpha Legion were followers of Malal (Malice?)."

it is Malice, he is the 40k version of Malal and yes that would be funny. Actually now that I think about it, if I were to start an Alpha Legion army that was still loyal to the Cabal, I would have them side with Malice. INSPIRATION!


----------



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Sons of Horus, at first:
"Look at us! our primarch is the warmaster, up yours!"

Of course after the Heresy:
"Damn...!

Of course all the legions would have had some level of nobilty (exsept the World Eaters, they were just mindless killers) depending on the state of their legion.


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Wow, this thread is like asking which of Rosey O'Donald's movies was the funniest.

Answer: None of them.


----------

