# More Allies?



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ran across the following on Faeit212 and figured it was worth discussing:



> * Behind the Scenes: A New Take On Allies *
> 
> 
> ​
> ...


I've read this a couple times and while this only seems to directly apply to Tau, who thinks this might be our chance to see things like the Mechanicus finally hit the table? Or new alien races that can ally with Tau?

Either way I think it was an interesting bit of information and I'm keen on seeing how this all pans out into the game as a whole.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

I would love to see this idea put into action. I can't help but feel the Inquisition would have been better served by this rather than the entries they got in the current C:SOB and C:GK. Perhaps this is wish-listing, but individual Guard regiments could get their own special mini-dex. A mini-dex specific to penal legions would make my day, especially if it had a certain Colonel as an HQ choice. 

~Imperiam centered opinion on the matter.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Smells of Chaos Cultists to me,
notice how the starter set Cultist content pretty much already fits the 'splat' concept already?


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## Cricket (Jan 4, 2011)

At first thought, I felt this to be a terrible idea, but upon deeper thought on the subject, I think something like this would be great for the game in the end. It would give a much greater variety to the armies we see during our games. I have nothing against Marine armies in themselves, but I am sick of seeing at least half of the armies on game night as some variant of marines. I stopped playing my White Scars just on principle and began Tau, Orks, and Eldar just to get some variety. These supposed "Allies" that are generic could really bring some completely new flavors to the bland marine armies (and others.) I'm sorry marine players, But I've gotten thoroughly bored of seeing ANY space marines...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Cricket said:


> At first thought, I felt this to be a terrible idea, but upon deeper thought on the subject, I think something like this would be great for the game in the end. It would give a much greater variety to the armies we see during our games. I have nothing against Marine armies in themselves, but I am sick of seeing at least half of the armies on game night as some variant of marines. I stopped playing my White Scars just on principle and began Tau, Orks, and Eldar just to get some variety. These supposed "Allies" that are generic could really bring some completely new flavors to the bland marine armies (and others.) I'm sorry marine players, But I've gotten thoroughly bored of seeing ANY space marines...


To be fair I think most Marine players are sick of playing Marines.

Sisters FTW!

In a more serious and back on topic note:

I agree that it could be a great way to slip in things to help put some variety into the Marine armies, but I really don't want it to turn onto a Marine only thing. Those guys already have enough attention, toys, books and releases. And I get it, they're the big attraction to 40K, especially in the modern age of hulking men in some form of power armor that are at LEAST the size of four brick shit houses, but I think there is so much more that can be seen on the table for other armies too.

There is a LOT out there that could be represented through these kinds of books (like Arbites!) and I'm excited to see where this all goes.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

I think more choice can only be a Good Thing, although I'm still working my brain through the huge list of options I have with just CSM/Daemon/Traitor Guard combinations. What I'd really like to see as well, now, is some new 6th-Ed-friendly Kill Team-type rules for small-force encounters (not least 'cos there's a full table of Zone Mortalis tiles in the gaming hall at Warhammer World that I'm dying to have a game on, and something like Kill Team seems a natural choice for that table).


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## Cricket (Jan 4, 2011)

Zion said:


> To be fair I think most Marine players are sick of playing Marines.
> 
> Sisters FTW!
> 
> ...


Forgive me for not being clear. I didn't mean give just the marines more variety, but rather everybody. Give people more options, and I think more people will start experimenting with other codex armies as well. I agree 100%


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Cricket said:


> Forgive me for not being clear. I didn't mean give just the marines more variety, but rather everybody. Give people more options, and I think more people will start experimenting with other codex armies as well. I agree 100%


You were pretty clear, I was just expressing that I don't want to see Marines being the primary beneficiaries on this. It's bad enough that they're the yard stick for just about everything, and that they get the most releases, I don't want them to see them get all the shiny toys out of this edition first.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I like it, it could introduce loads more races as allies like the Scythians or Squats rather than making entirely new independent armies.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

What concerns me about this is how they are being released. The other 'behind the scene' post he did was about WD releases. If they start doing these mini army/ally releases in WD and only make them for that and maybe the Ipad option that will seriously suck. They have already done something like this with the Stormtalon and Ork flyers.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> What concerns me about this is how they are being released. The other 'behind the scene' post he did was about WD releases. If they start doing these mini army/ally releases in WD and only make them for that and maybe the Ipad option that will seriously suck. They have already done something like this with the Stormtalon and Ork flyers.


It would suck (speaking from experience with the Sisters 'dex on this one), but honestly I'll take inconvenient updates over no updates. I pick up a copy of the WD every month from my FLGS anyways so it doesn't cause me too many problems but I do remember when the Sisters ones sold out in under two weeks on the GW site. 

The solution to that of course has been someone scanning it until GW does something and officially releases the rules. They're going to have to do something to make these ebooks more universal though, because as it is not nearly enough people can access them.

Well that and the prices for full codexes could stand to be cheaper.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I've no idea if this has changed, but: the rules for BFG and a tonne of stuff for Inquisitor, is free to download as PDFs from the GW website. There's Apocalypse datasheets as well. I can't help but think that if they would release 'splats', then digital could slao include PDF.
If GW want to move further into a digital play-content mode, then they're going to have to aim it at more thab Apple users. They may be trendy and loved by creative types, but they aren't the be-all-and-end-all of digital document management. I don't doubt this will be addressed, 'cos if it's not then money is going to be lost and no company wants that!

GFP


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Hope so GFP, I just know that the only way to get the 6th ed Flyer rules for those flyers released just before 6th is via the applestore


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

scscofield said:


> What concerns me about this is how they are being released. The other 'behind the scene' post he did was about WD releases. If they start doing these mini army/ally releases in WD and only make them for that and maybe the Ipad option that will seriously suck. They have already done something like this with the Stormtalon and Ork flyers.



I would imagine we would see compilations being released again. When GW previously posted new rules in White Dwarf (ah the good old days of 3rd and 4th edition) we got chapter approved compilations at the end of each year which had all of the faq's and any rule queries in as well. 

All things considered GW have always been pretty good at ensuring people can get the relevent rules they need (i'm not talking about codex release dates) unless they are changing something in the way the armies work anyway. I woudln't be massivly surprised to see SoB released as one of these mini dexes, could explain why the WD dex was so bad, they are being designed as an allies list. 

The inclusion of fringe factions in the new rulebook, abhumans for example, would also support this. Squats have been stonewalled for so long....the only logical reasons for them to suddenly mentioned in the new rulebook are to give a nod to veterans (which kinda comes off like rubbing salt in the wound) or because they are reintroducing them in some fashion.

I know from when i used to create story campaigns for my friends to play that we always ended up with races or vehicles that never actually made the cut into the story, i can only imagine the sort of quantities of spare/unused units a place like the design studio must generate.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

When I read this, I automatically thought of IG or Ork Genestealer Cults. With the specific mention that certain slots could be ignored altogether, you could have a cult that isn't all armored mech and actually have genestealer hybrids.

I'd like to have access to a Chaos Renegade Ork Warband (I'm going to use the CSM codex for this, so this is on hold for now), or Rebel Grots or Diggamobs (I'm going to use the IG codex for this).


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I woudln't be massivly surprised to see SoB released as one of these mini dexes, could explain why the WD dex was so bad, they are being designed as an allies list.


I would be because they actually got a lot of press in the 6th Edition rulebook, and unlike the mentioning of the allies having codexes with portions missing (like Fast Attack or Heavy Support) Sisters have at least 2 units in every slot (sans Troops who only have one, like old codex books (see Black Templars or the old Necron book), and the Heavy and Elites both have 3 options each). 

Now things like Arbites, Mechanicus, Squats, or the eight kajillion other aliens we don't know much about could easily get an Ally Style Codex, but I don't see existing books going that way at all.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Unfortunately all these rumours and the current WD Daemons update seem to be pointing to SoB never getting a full codex released; being consigned to a niche WD army, like Kroot. *sad face*


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Unfortunately all these rumours and the current WD Daemons update seem to be pointing to SoB never getting a full codex released; being consigned to a niche WD army, like Kroot. *sad face*


I'm going to go and admit that I might be an idiot, but I'm not seeing any logic in this. These rumors are pointing to new races and options, not less. Additionally Kroot only existed as a WD codex at MOST, and were most commonly seen as a Tau option. Sisters have been around since Rogue Trader, have had two full codex books and recently a WD. The only problem they've had is the lack of model updates.

Pardon my ranting, but I'm REALLY sick of Sisters getting the short end of the stick from the 40K community. If we like an army so damned much why do we keep insisting their going the way of the dodo every fucking chance we get!? I've yet to see ANY solid information that even HINTS at GW getting rid of the Sisters, or downsizing them to a non-codex status. 

And believe me I keep tabs on anything Sisters related at least once a week. If I heard ANYTHING of the kind I'd have a post so full of seething anger and cursing that GW Nottingham would spontaneously EXPLODE.

So keep the faith, because our day in the sun is coming!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

My logic is that they are a small army (or rather considered small by the community and attention from GW is sparse), who is already a WD army. Following that train of thought, so GW plans to WD mini-dex all small factions, like SoB. Which means, they were already done in 2011, GW has an excuse to say "They are 'up to date', let's move on" and tada, another 5 years before we get any update for SoB again. It just seems unlikely we will see another WD update to a WD army, and there is 0 evidence of any work on a real dex. 

It seems like, if these rumours are true, then the WD mini-dex/update is GW's band-aid answer to "shelving" armies. Instead of shelving SoB, they get a little band-aid dex in a magazine to appease their fans (in 2011). Same with Kroot, who's models also don't sell very well. 

I'm not saying I hope this is happening... I really really want to see SoB updated, obviously, and want to believe my logic is false. But GW isn't doing -anything- to make it seem otherwise, infact, quite the opposite. Believe me, on that day they get a dex and plastic models I will dance a fuckin jig on my FLGS tables and pre-order the whole damn model line. 

In all seriousness the closest thing we have to hope is that Silver-tabby will play her game with her friend from the studio soon and jog their memory that the SoB still exist and have fans out there...


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

I think you'd see more variety if space marines and their variants didn't count for slightly over one third of the existing codexes.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

If this happened, and specifically if Kroot came out of the Tau Dex, what would people expect to happen to the Tau battleforce? At the moment a pretty small amount of the points, but a large number of the models are Kroot.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> My logic is that they are a small army (or rather considered small by the community and attention from GW is sparse), who is already a WD army. Following that train of thought, so GW plans to WD mini-dex all small factions, like SoB. Which means, they were already done in 2011, GW has an excuse to say "They are 'up to date', let's move on" and tada, another 5 years before we get any update for SoB again. It just seems unlikely we will see another WD update to a WD army, and there is 0 evidence of any work on a real dex.
> 
> It seems like, if these rumours are true, then the WD mini-dex/update is GW's band-aid answer to "shelving" armies. Instead of shelving SoB, they get a little band-aid dex in a magazine to appease their fans (in 2011). Same with Kroot, who's models also don't sell very well.
> 
> ...


To be frank your logic sucks as much as the folks who claim Sisters would get squatted. A lack of attention is not proof that GW is going to do anything of the sort. After the revamps of Dark Eldar, Necrons and Daemonhunters (now the Grey Knights) into new armies with new models the Sisters stand a better chance now than ever to get updated. GW is aware they can make a lot of money if they update old armies, I just don't think they have a product that is "ready" yet.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

To be honest I found his logic fairly sound on the matter. It would not shock me in the least if this is the new route GW will take for the majority of their stuff. It would allow them to 'test' ideas for various armies and races. If one of them picks up and takes off as wildly popular it would over time develop into a full fledged codex. If it doesn't they release the models for a few years then bin them and move on. 

The SoB do have a small model count and could quite easily be done this way. They would still release a new set of rules for them I think but this wouldn't require a full blown codex overhaul. The rules would relax a bit of what you must take so allies would be more viable. The models probably would be released as finecast because of lack of numbers. It would if nothing else increase the odds that non SoB players would consider them as allies.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> To be honest I found his logic fairly sound on the matter. It would not shock me in the least if this is the new route GW will take for the majority of their stuff. It would allow them to 'test' ideas for various armies and races. If one of them picks up and takes off as wildly popular it would over time develop into a full fledged codex. If it doesn't they release the models for a few years then bin them and move on.
> 
> The SoB do have a small model count and could quite easily be done this way. They would still release a new set of rules for them I think but this wouldn't require a full blown codex overhaul. The rules would relax a bit of what you must take so allies would be more viable. The models probably would be released as finecast because of lack of numbers. It would if nothing else increase the odds that non SoB players would consider them as allies.


Riddle me this then: Why put them in the 6th Edition Rulebook then? No other army that only existed as a one-off army (like Kroot Mercs) got any sort of press in the rulebook, but the Sisters did. Not only that they got the same kind of press that several other armies got. Not only that, Silver Tabby noted they painted some new models for the rulebook too.

That's more effort than some WD-Ally would get. And it's not like this would be something that just appeared. This had to be an idea that was kicking around for a while now for a while before we even heard a hint of allies. So if they were planning on this, why put Sisters in the rulebook? 

Because they were, and still all a full army. Don't count them out until GW actually puts them out.

_It's a sad day when a pessimist is the one being optimistic about something._


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Because they are a preexisting army, Chaos Demons are in there too. I am not saying this is going to be any more likely than what your saying. I am just saying it sounds logical that it would happen. Kroot and Vespid are in the rule book also so dismissing the concept because SoB are in the rule book is kinda silly.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Because they are a preexisting army, Chaos Demons are in there too. I am not saying this is going to be any more likely than what your saying. I am just saying it sounds logical that it would happen. Kroot and Vespid are in the rule book also so dismissing the concept because SoB are in the rule book is kinda silly.


Kroot and Vespids are part of a codex, not codexes in their own right.

I'm just saying that there is a surprising amount of effort regarding the Sisters themselves that could have been glossed over with much less.

Either way I'm tired of the assumption always being the Sisters are going to be tossed under the bus. It's the same mentality that occurs when people say GW "must" be squatting the Sisters "soon". Surprise, surprise, still ain't squatted yet. 

So pardon me if I don't buy into this mentality just yet, but I've yet to see this kind of negative thinking prove to be right yet.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

:: shrugs :: I am indifferent on the matter because I don't play them. I am just pointing out his point was just as valid at your in this situation. It is not squatting them and it is not tossing them under the bus considering how much attention they have gotten up to this point.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> ...there is a surprising amount of effort regarding the Sisters themselves that could have been glossed over with much less.


What, how they included a 10+ year-old painting and a few paragraphs which could have been written over the course of an afternoon? 

Remember, I'm on your side, I hope you are right, I really do. However there seems to be no better explanation other than either someone in GW HQ really doesn't like SoB or they are convinced they are a monetary liability. This whole modelling hold-up that is supposedly the reason for the unreleased SoB dex is just bogus. GW has released thousands of miniatures, some good, some bad, and -these- ones just can't be finished? Cmon... What is this, Starcraft Ghost? Everyone knows that never saw the light of day because WoW was being milked too hard. In this case, it's Space Marines. 

Right now, SoB are "up to date" and while I strongly disagree, could be said to not need anything, since they can just take allied forces to fill gaps in their army list. Now, don't misunderstand me, I think this is bullshit, but it seems to be the logic of GW and this possible WD mini-dex rumour supports it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> Snotice how the starter set Cultist content pretty much already fits the 'splat' concept already?


When did they announce that Slaanesh was in the starter set?

Midnight


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

This is awesome. I'd love to see this for kroot, sisters, arbites, mechanicum, and many others. 

The idea of an entirely sisters army always sat wrong with me. But sisters who are bing escorted by a grouping of ig is another matter.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Eleven said:


> The idea of an entirely sisters army always sat wrong with me. But sisters who are bing escorted by a grouping of ig is another matter.


Why? ...Because they are chicks? 

Seriously, the fluff states there are thousands upon thousands of SoB and plenty of examples of them embarking on missions of their own for the Imperium, without the direct support of IG or SM. Name one good reason they should not be a unified, independent force operating as the Ordos Militant of the Echlessiarchy.


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Seriously, the fluff states there are thousands upon thousands of SoB and plenty of examples of them embarking on missions of their own for the Imperium, without the direct support of IG or SM. Name one good reason they should not be a unified, independent force operating as the Ordos Militant of the Echlessiarchy.


Because he hasn't bothered to read the fluff on who and what we actually are.

The Adepta Sororitas are the representatives of the church of the god emperor on thousands of worlds,often the only visible representative of the imperium aside from a priest or arbites the masses will ever see serving as advisors to governors, assisting priests in their ceremonies, providing healthcare to the sick, and executing the emperor's will by executing his enemies, wherever they me be found within the priesthood, within his worlds, or crusading without to purge the heretic the alien and the psychic.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Purge the Heretic said:


> Because he hasn't bothered to read the fluff on who and what we actually are.
> 
> The Adepta Sororitas are the representatives of the church of the god emperor on thousands of worlds,often the only visible representative of the imperium aside from a priest or arbites the masses will ever see serving as advisors to governors, assisting priests in their ceremonies, providing healthcare to the sick, and executing the emperor's will by executing his enemies, wherever they me be found within the priesthood, within his worlds, or crusading without to purge the heretic the alien and the psychic.


You forgot guarding the churches, shrines and holy sites too. 

Seriously, Sisters are EVERYWHERE in the Imperium. Add in participating in holy wars, and wars of faith and general policing of the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy and you can bet these girls are important enough to warrant an army. After all when an Ecclesiarchal world gets hit by Xenos, or when a Holy Relic needs retrieval from Chaos Infested worlds the Marines don't go, neither do the Guard. The Sisters do.


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## Zer0 (Jan 13, 2009)

I think reducing the Sisters to an allied mini-dex could be beneficial for them in the long run. Right now, I think the entire line is in metal. I just did a quick check and didn't see any Finecast either. Replacing a whole line for an army that doesn't sell very will doesn't make much sense. But producing either Finecast or a single plastic kit that a lot of people could theoretically add into their existing armies could boost interest in the range as a whole and eventually lead to them being promoted back to a full army.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Zer0 said:


> I think reducing the Sisters to an allied mini-dex could be beneficial for them in the long run. Right now, I think the entire line is in metal. I just did a quick check and didn't see any Finecast either. Replacing a whole line for an army that doesn't sell very will doesn't make much sense. But producing either Finecast or a single plastic kit that a lot of people could theoretically add into their existing armies could boost interest in the range as a whole and eventually lead to them being promoted back to a full army.


Reducing Sisters doesn't help them in the long run. UPDATING them helps them in the long run. It's akin to saying that reducing ANY army helps them.

And as for replacing a whole line that doesn't sell well refer to Dark Eldar, Necrons or Daemonhunters (you'll find their called Grey Knights now) in 2010 or earlier. None of those armies were big sellers, and updating them has done a LOT to make them more open to new players, and to have them sell more.

Sisters aren't a "risky" army to update. There are a lot of people who still play them, and if the White Dwarf sales for the codex was any proof there are a LOT of people interested in playing them (on the US GW site both issues sold out in UNDER two weeks). 

However, they may be a hard one to update in another respect, namely balance. GW has to keep the fluff they've established about power armor, faith and the holy trinity of weapons while adding to it or adjusting it to be a viable army. And that isn't something that just gets done over night. Sisters aren't just WS3/T3/S3 Marines. They're a fully fledged army with different strengths and weaknesses than your other Imperial armies.

Besides, can anyone SERIOUSLY tell me they want the only power armored army out their to be Marines? Sisters bring a different statline to a fairly static Imperium (who is otherwise T4 with a 3+ or 2+/5++ or T3 with a 5+ (or a 4+ if you play Stormtroopers)), not to mention a different KIND of army to the game (T3/3+ that specializes in close ranged firefights). 

Honestly taking Sisters away from the game as a full fledged army loses us an army that is unique and loses us some variety and flavor in what is a game of Marines vs Marines almost all the time.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I can see Kroot, Vespids, maybe some Squats, and a variety of other races being put in a Dogs of War codex, similar to the book of the same name for WHF. With the allies rules as they are, it would be a splendid addition. 

Sisters would not fit in a book like that, as they are not one-trick units like the aforementioned, nor are they unique and funky additions. 

Back in Codex Imperialis they were a single entry. However, so were the grey knights, and look what happened to them. Why are people convinced they're going to be scrapped altogether? Squats never even made it into 3rd edition, and their presence in 2nd was sporadic (they were more present in Epic). Sisters however had a complete codex in 2nd, then 3rd, then however people may hate it (I don't) they had an update for 5th which works in 6th. 

Sisters players seem to be their own worst enemies. A lot of people are starting to believe the army should be 'squatted' simply to shut up the constant complaining, even from those who say they've shelved their army and not bothered to play with the current edition. 

Me, I'm having fun with the current codex, and waiting patiently for the codex I've been seeing signs of. I'm not worried about being relegated to an 'Allies' book, I doubt it'll happen. I'm intrigued at what else could go in such a book. What would people like to see as stand-alone units?


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I think the idea in general is brilliant adn the fact that they brought out that demons update may be a hint at them testing the possibility of releasing new rules like this - seeing abhumans squats kroot cultists etc. would add to the game really well and it means that GW don't need to create entire codecies to include these models.

On the SOB topic, I completely aggree with Zion in that a lot of the older codecies when they were updated became a gold mine - crons being the big one, there are absolutely loads no (sadly) and I'm sure that if SOB were updated people will play them, I think the main reason people don't is that buying metal models like that is expensive - take the old Pariahs which were £8 for 1 so getting a squad of 5 would cost £40 whereas the new lychguard boxes which give you 5 and a lot of good bitz is only £20.

I would certainly play SOB if they were updated with plastic models because they would be not only a lot easier to get hold of but they would be cheaper, if they were updated with just finecast if anything it would push me away because I hate the stuff


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> ...however people may hate it (I don't) they had an update for 5th which works in 6th.


Because it should have been an update like this Daemons update, and not an entire overhaul which removed all their wargear, half their abilities, and only provided Confessors and Warbands as supplement in their place. Don't you miss all the options that used to be available? Sarissas, Blessed Weapons, Books of St. Lucius, Litanies of Faith, Flying Canoness, 10+ "fast" Immolators in one army, Rending Flamers and weapons with faith... They took away most of what made them unique and interesting for who knows why. I guess that the writers lost their copy of Codex: Witchhunters the day they were working on the new SoB book. 

Anyhow, I'm not saying this brings anything new to the SoB, I'm saying it may have already happened. This is a perfect opportunity for GW to have an excuse of saying, hey they don't need to be updated as they can just be taken as allies now. And then sit on them for another 5-10 years. 

As for talk of making them an even smaller, allies only faction, with the advent of flyers, hasn't that already pretty much happened?


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## Zer0 (Jan 13, 2009)

falcoso said:


> I would certainly play SOB if they were updated with plastic models because they would be not only a lot easier to get hold of but they would be cheaper, if they were updated with just finecast if anything it would push me away because I hate the stuff


This was the point I was making. If they wanted to make a whole new codex they'd have to redo the entire line in either plastic or finecast. While Dark Eldar (the whole range needed an overhaul) and Necrons (the majority of the range is new) were successful, it's still a risk. If they made SoB an abbreviated allies codes, you could probably get away with a couple finecast HQs and a box of plastic Sisters with a couple weapons options. If GW then sees that there is a definite interest they can expand the line and, in a couple years, produce a proper Codex. 

. . . or just come up with an Order with different fluff, make them an allies Codex with new kits and you can still keep the stand alone WD one.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

@Arcane: the only things you list that I actually used were the Book and Canoness jump packs. I don't take huge amounts of wargear on very fragile characters, so don't miss the options. I never really paid tank-fu, so all I have is rhinos and a few Exorcists. The only non-sister options I took were DCA, which I can still take. 

I played pure Sisters back then, I play them now. My army has changed very little, and all for the better in ingame results. I like the simplified AoF. Could they be better? Absolutely. Doesn't everyone want 3++ saves for their entire army? However, the old system was flawed. 

I also know how these things work. We needed a 5th / 6th ed update. The new codex isn't done yet. You take out absolutely everything you aren't sure is going to remain, so you are left with the core. Everything in this update you can guarantee will be in any future codex. You don't put in new rules for something, only to decide a year later it was a bad idea and have to put it in the new dex regardless. The weapon options may change, but you can be sure the core units will remain so you can still use all your old units if you wish. The basic battle sister model can be used for anything at present. The Conclaves are in GKs, and are easy enough to port over. 

*This* is why I'm not complaining about the update, even the bits I don't like. You make basic changes for a WDDex and then build from it, like they did for Blood Angels. You don't start big then have to retcon again...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Zer0 said:


> This was the point I was making. If they wanted to make a whole new codex they'd have to redo the entire line in either plastic or finecast. While Dark Eldar (the whole range needed an overhaul) and Necrons (the majority of the range is new) were successful, it's still a risk. If they made SoB an abbreviated allies codes, you could probably get away with a couple finecast HQs and a box of plastic Sisters with a couple weapons options. If GW then sees that there is a definite interest they can expand the line and, in a couple years, produce a proper Codex.
> 
> . . . or just come up with an Order with different fluff, make them an allies Codex with new kits and you can still keep the stand alone WD one.


Sisters models were rumored in the works about the time Dark Eldar were rumored to come out (mid-2010). Last word was some issue with the sleeves, but that may have been fixed. So new models are already in the works if not done already.

I don't agree with the assessment than reducing their ability as an army to an ally is a good option. They're a reasonably balanced army that can perform. Not as well as some of the armies built around 6th Edition (like Necrons), but they are by no means an ineffective army. 

On the other hand the rumor is saying that many of these ally armies are going to be intentionally imbalanced because they're intended to be allied into an army, or be supplemented by another army (like say a Genestealer Cult being supplemented by Tyranids, or Chaos Cultists supplemented by Daemons), and unbalancing a decent army doesn't sound like a good fix.

Personally I look at it this way: every army (yes, even the Marine ones) are a risk. It's always possible that GW screws something up that makes people not buy into an army. To claim that an army is a risk and that's why they should update is like saying you shouldn't drink water because it's wet. 

Armies NEED legitimate updates. To turn an army into something less isn't going to make it better, it makes it worse. People want options, and to take those away while claiming it to be an update only makes things worse. Look at the backlash over the CSM codex from the 2.5 to 4th Edition versions or Witchhunters to Sisters of Battle. If there is one solid way to kill interest in an army it's to invalidate what people have spent time and money building and telling them that it's not an option anymore.

If Sisters get relegated to a more limited ally based army, you can be sure that'll be one of the last nails in that coffin as far as the community is deserved. And it's not what they need right now. They need GW actually backing them with a REAL update with new models, and new units and new codex specific toys.

Anything less is just a slap in the face at this point.

TL;DR: Taking toys away and calling it an improvement doesn't make something better, nor does it help any. Sisters need an full update if they're ever going to get off the ground as a legit army again.

EDIT: If anyone doesn't get it by now, I'm a staunch supporter of full codexes for all the armies that exist and expanding not detracting from what's available. And there is no army I crusade for such a thing harder for than the Sisters because honestly, it's the only option that makes REAL sense. Taking my toys away and calling it an update doesn't make an army better, neither does trying to suggest GW should do so either. We're only going to get more diverse games and more varied armies if GW updates them completely, and to say that any army should be pushed off to the side is a legitimate Heresy, for no army should honestly be dropped or downsized like that. 

I respect that that may be some people's opinions, but how many people can honestly tell me they'd appreciate being told that their army should be shelved or downsized to an ally only codex because _*I*_ don't agree with it? I'm sure many of you would be down right annoyed, if not pissed off. 

Now can you that you don't expect Sisters players to feel the same when you tell them that?

Frankly at this point I'm rather numb to the whole thing since I'm happy playing with my little pewter women and will keep using that WD codex even if it never gets updated beyond the occasional FAQ, but quite pissing on people and claiming it's raining already. No one appreciates that level of negativity, and it does nothing to make this hobby or this community better.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Arcane said:


> Why? ...Because they are chicks?
> 
> Seriously, the fluff states there are thousands upon thousands of SoB and plenty of examples of them embarking on missions of their own for the Imperium, without the direct support of IG or SM. Name one good reason they should not be a unified, independent force operating as the Ordos Militant of the Echlessiarchy.


Don't get all upset, an entire army of grey knights never set well with me either. Or daemons either for that matter. Daemons are rarely written as attacking without the assistance of cultists, or CSM. Grey knights and sisters are rarely written without being supported either. I can only think of one short story I ever read with daemons attacking on their own. I can't think of any i've read of grey knights acting on their own. I think I read a story where a unit of sisters acted on their own....after the space marines that they were working with originally had converted to chaos.

I wouldn't worry if I were you. The sisters of battle will probably get their own codex somewhere down the line, probably 4 or 5 years from now. I think though if we are going to have alliances (especially the ones that are plumb retarded like dark eldar with eldar), then we may as well have alliance only codices.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Purge the Heretic said:


> The Adepta Sororitas are the representatives of the church of the god emperor on thousands of worlds..


leaving about 4 sisters for each world you are talking about.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Eleven said:


> Don't get all upset, an entire army of grey knights never set well with me either. Or daemons either for that matter. Daemons are rarely written as attacking without the assistance of cultists, or CSM. Grey knights and sisters are rarely written without being supported either. I can only think of one short story I ever read with daemons attacking on their own. I can't think of any i've read of grey knights acting on their own. I think I read a story where a unit of sisters acted on their own....after the space marines that they were working with originally had converted to chaos.
> 
> I wouldn't worry if I were you. The sisters of battle will probably get their own codex somewhere down the line, probably 4 or 5 years from now.


You missed Red and Black (Sisters Audiobook), Faith and Fire, Hammer and Anvil, Daemonfuge (which has Stern doing her own thing 90% of the time) and all three of the Grey Knights books (the first one the Sisters and Gray Knights end up teaming up towards the end but it's pretty strictly Grey Knights most of the way).

Besides, think of all the things that HAVEN'T been written about. 40K has a rich and diverse tapestry to work with that can have just about anyone fighting just about anything for just about any reason. Both supported and unsupported. 

There are grounds for these armies working solo too, Sisters often lead Wars of Faith, as well as act as their own line of defense to protect the Ecclesiarch, and anything related to the Imperial Church. There is even a short blurb in the White Dwarf codex that mentions the Sisters going to a planet previously lost to the Warp, landing and finding the church untouched, and going in to retrieve lost relics, doing so (with severely less members making it back OUT) and bugging out before the Grey Knights could even get there (and the Grey Knights are the ones with the fastest ships and are supposed to know that these things are coming ahead of time!).

So yes, they deserve full armies, they need better treatment to make those armies really WORK.

EDIT:


Eleven said:


> leaving about 4 sisters for each world you are talking about.


Only if you accept that the numbers outlined as being the entire number of all Adeptus Sororitas. More realistically those are the number of Sisters of the Major Orders Militant, or the number of Adeptus Sororitas regularly available (as in not engaged in missions, or actively in a Crusade or some other tasking) as a standing reserve.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

@Zion: WH was completely incompatible with 6th. Which leads to:
1) to make it 6th compatible, you'd effectively have to rewrite the entire codex. They don't do that without a model release schedule for it to be financially viable.
2) Sisters players still wanted to play with their armies in 6th. 
3) 6th makes it possible to have virtually all the elements of a WH army, without needing to update the whole codex.
4) The core of Sisters that will be present in the new dex are all present in the WDDex. They even got buffed, and had their prices dropped. Yes, wargear got cut. But if you want new stuff, the old had to go.

GW will not release a full dex without models. They will also not accompany a new edition with a fringe / non-guaranteed good seller as a main release. So we wait, play with what - when combined with other 6th elements - is a perfectly usuable army, and I firmly believe we've got enough signs that next year will be our year. Possibly even first half. 

I am happier to play with a cutdown army if it means none of what I have is rendered obsolete with the new book. Anyone starting sisters with the WDDex would be pissed at that. Is it really so hard to see what's been done here, if people can just get past that initial "GW ARE ALL W*NKERS" instinctive response?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> @Zion: WH was completely incompatible with 6th.


Oh I agree, but I was referring to stripping the WD codex down FURTHER.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the WD codex, it's functional if a bit limited (kind of like some of the older codexes of other armies), but if it got stripped further to make it an ally dex I'd honestly give birth to the Anti-Christ through the pure amount of rage I'd have.

And no one wants to see that happen. That is unless you REALLY liked the movie Junior. Yes the one where the Terminator gets pregnant.


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## Zer0 (Jan 13, 2009)

Zion said:


> Sisters models were rumored in the works about the time Dark Eldar were rumored to come out (mid-2010). Last word was some issue with the sleeves, but that may have been fixed. So new models are already in the works if not done already.
> 
> I don't agree with the assessment than reducing their ability as an army to an ally is a good option. They're a reasonably balanced army that can perform. Not as well as some of the armies built around 6th Edition (like Necrons), but they are by no means an ineffective army.
> 
> ...


If the new models are already in the works, wouldn't you rather have them now rather than having to wait for the majority of the line, a new codex and a slot in the release schedule? I'm not saying that Sisters don't deserve a new Codex, I'm just saying until the stars align and GW get's everything ready for a release, it could be better to release the essential models with rules to use them. You get your toys, non-Sisters players get rules to integrate them into their armies if they want (expanding the player base) and then later (provided enough interest is shown in them) you can get a full codex and more models. Really the Allies codex would just be a justification for the splash release.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Zer0 said:


> If the new models are already in the works, wouldn't you rather have them now rather than having to wait for the majority of the line, a new codex and a slot in the release schedule?


Sure I would, but right now GW only releases models for armies they've recently updated (and sometimes only a year or two after the army has been out).

And I _REALLY_ want a full codex full of sparkly awesome and not another WD codex. If I can't get a new full codex I'll sit on what I got rather than get another partial release via magazine.



Zer0 said:


> I'm not saying that Sisters don't deserve a new Codex, I'm just saying until the stars align and GW get's everything ready for a release, it could be better to release the essential models with rules to use them. You get your toys, non-Sisters players get rules to integrate them into their armies if they want (expanding the player base) and then later (provided enough interest is shown in them) you can get a full codex and more models. Really the Allies codex would just be a justification for the splash release.


Allies aren't a justification, they're a kick in the knees right now. Why update a WD codex with another WD codex? That's not good sense.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

I personally would throw down substantion money to GW if they put out a Mechanicus and Dark Mechanicus ally (with brand new models obviously) I would FOR SURE add them to an army just for how sweet the models might be


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Apostle said:


> I personally would throw down substantion money to GW if they put out a Mechanicus and Dark Mechanicus ally (with brand new models obviously) I would FOR SURE add them to an army just for how sweet the models might be


definitely agreed.

Ironically, both of the afore mentioned armies deserve their own codex infinitely more than sisters do, since they actually represent armies that have a strong influence on the galaxy at large, and hardly a book concerning 40k exists without at least their mention.


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## Zer0 (Jan 13, 2009)

Zion said:


> Sure I would, but right now GW only releases models for armies they've recently updated (and sometimes only a year or two after the army has been out).
> 
> And I _REALLY_ want a full codex full of sparkly awesome and not another WD codex. If I can't get a new full codex I'll sit on what I got rather than get another partial release via magazine.
> 
> ...


The key is the 'right now' part. Now that we have the prospect of more armies getting WD updates, we have the prospect of new models outside of a full Codex update. I guess this is an 'agree to disagree' situation. Either way, I hope Sisters get some GW love . . . wait, that sounds wrong.

Moving on, I'm hoping that Tyranids will get some allies in the form of Genestealer cults (including Orks or even Tau) or some other diabolical biological perversion. Maybe the Zoats of hivefleet Colossus?


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Eleven said:


> definitely agreed.
> 
> Ironically, both of the afore mentioned armies deserve their own codex infinitely more than sisters do, since they actually represent armies that have a strong influence on the galaxy at large, and hardly a book concerning 40k exists without at least their mention.


I absolutely agree on that. I would love to have a nice 3-4k point Mechanicum list


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> . Is it really so hard to see what's been done here, if people can just get past that initial "GW ARE ALL W*NKERS" instinctive response?


Yeah, it's hard to see... maybe you could ask your friends at GW what's the deal. Otherwise, all they've taken the time to say is "hey we fixed your codex for the new edition but also cut 60% of the content, in an out of print magazine (for a year now)". At least Daemons are getting new models with their WD update. Seems like a wanker move to me.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

60% of content... Really? If I do a unit count, will I really come up with that number? 

Also, those things removed are things that you can now still put in your army. You can't get all of them all at once, but you do still have access to them. Mostly all from the same codex. And without having to put a single grey knight in your list either. In fact, now it's a bit more balanced as you can't cherrypick from multiple sources. 

So.... The Sisters in the main list lose a couple of items of wargear, but gain a bunch of useful items like built-in grenades, bolt pistols and lower costs. One tank gets nerfed. The AoF get changed in preparation for new stuff, because removing them altogether wasn't an option, but the old ones were broken. 

*Pauses*

In fact, looking at it that way, we still have the old WH book, minus the broken AoF and some wargear (some of which were also broken), but with up-to-date costings...


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## WarHammerman (Feb 19, 2012)

Forgive me if I repeat anything said before (I read the first, and last, page of this). Since this discussion is largely opinion based, I figured I'd throw my two cents into the pool:

Personally the idea of "Splats" is great. This could really add flavor and variety - and could lead to great allies possibilities. If it is true that these splats will have an HQ and Troop choice, we could see things like: GK main force (using all / mostly Inquisitor) + Tau Allies (Kroot Splat) - and call it a Radical Inquisition force.

The main problem I foresee with this is the addition of new/powerful HQ choices and how to make them not only separate but equal, and yet integrated. Will they have rules much like the Emperor's Champion (must bring along above a certain point value). So, if you're playing Tau and have 2 slots of Kroot Carnivores, must you bring a shaper HQ? Or will it be something like that but backwards - if you bring 2 units of Kroot, will it allow you to bring a Shaper HQ.

For the Imperium of Man, with its many, mixed, and varied groups that could very well be "intermingled" I could easily see a "Splat book of Allies" - throw the Custodes, AdMech, and others in there. Indicate which main books they can be added too. 

For the rest of the groups, I suspect each one could have these Splats for themselves. For some, like Necrons, I'm having a hard time coming up with indivdual splats. Yes, there are different groups amongst the Necrons (Triarch for example) but is that enough to make a splat of? 

But i see the biggest asset to this is for more distinction of individual forces (Space Marine chapters / Ork Clans). For example, this could allow a greater individualism between the chapters (C:SM ones that is) - we have those really great HQ choices already, but that could be expanded upon. Some groups (ravenguard for example) could really have a chance to shine. 

Well, thats my two cents.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

WarHammerman said:


> Forgive me if I repeat anything said before (I read the first, and last, page of this). Since this discussion is largely opinion based, I figured I'd throw my two cents into the pool:
> 
> Personally the idea of "Splats" is great. This could really add flavor and variety - and could lead to great allies possibilities. If it is true that these splats will have an HQ and Troop choice, we could see things like: GK main force (using all / mostly Inquisitor) + Tau Allies (Kroot Splat) - and call it a Radical Inquisition force.
> 
> ...


Allies always require the Allied Detatchment bring their own HQ, so depending on how the books are set up you make only have 1-2 HQ choices to pick from anyways. Either way you'll have to bring an HQ along for the Allies, even if that HQ is less than optimal.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

That's easy enough to do. You have unique units, and make their unit champions into seperate HQ units. Want Kretikratl's Kroot Carnivores? Kretikratl is a Shaper you buy as an HQ. Vzzzzzzping's Vespids? Likewise. Special rules include "can only be taken with..." and include unit, and races. Worked in Dogs of War.

HQs don't need to be uberpowerful new characters, they can just be the champion for that unit you fancy...

If you were adding an AdMech force, do the same but make the HQ some kind of minor techpriest, etc.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> So.... The Sisters in the main list lose a couple of items of wargear, but gain a bunch of useful items like built-in grenades, bolt pistols and lower costs.


So... Just taking a look at the basic troop it would seem that a basic C:SoB costs 1 *more* point than in C:WH, with the entire squad overall (10 model) costing 15 *more* points before upgrades. Now, if we add the option from C:WH for Frag grenades at 1 point per model, that's 10 points, putting them at 5 points below the current cost in C:SoB, which you could have used to buy a Melta bomb for the squad, which is arguably better than Kraks all around. The price difference is even more dramatic with 20 models in the unit. Hmm... how 'bout that?

Looking down the list, Dominions got more expensive by 2 points a model, Retributors increased by 1 point per model (those grenades are just dandy for a unit which sits back and shoots the entire game), Celestians got more expensive by 2 points per model... Leaving the only good unit which got cheaper as Seraphim, one of the bright shining parts of the new codex. Oh, don't forget all those other units which got cheaper, you know the ones no one in their right mind would ever take, like Repentia engines and sisters. 

Of course that isn't taking into account upgrades etc which one would normally take, but it was nice to have the option whether or not to take them since my WS3T3S3 SoB can't really make much use out of assault grenades and pistols  So let's add in that Veteran Superior to the C:WH troop unit, making them still 1 point *less* than a C:SoB troop choice, and has rending weapons, 3++ invul saves, 5 initiative or Fearless on a successful faith test in C:WH instead of grenades and pistols in C:SoB. Awesome. 

Wargear... 4 pages reduces to just 1 (with larger font to fill the single page mind you). The Canoness stripped of most options, hope you didn't have any cool converted models of one, I know I did and it's sitting on a shelf now (Along with my Hereticus Inq and retinue). 

So yeah, I'll concede that saying "60%" is hyperbole but like all hyperbole it's meant to illustrate a point and not actually be mathematically sound. We're talking miniature games here, not the landing trajectory of the NASA Mars Lander.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> So... Just taking a look at the basic troop it would seem that a basic C:SoB costs 1 *more* point than in C:WH, with the entire squad overall (10 model) costing 15 *more* points before upgrades.


Did you count in the overall cost with Rhino, or is this without?



Arcane said:


> Now, if we add the option from C:WH for Frag grenades at 1 point per model, that's 10 points, putting them at 5 points below the current cost in C:SoB, which you could have used to buy a Melta bomb for the squad, which is arguably better than Kraks all around. The price difference is even more dramatic with 20 models in the unit. Hmm... how 'bout that?


Kraks in 6th are actually really useful. You can use them on vehicles at WS value (only needing 3s at worst unless it's a walker, instead of the old 4s or 6s), you can use them on MCs to get some S6 hits off at initiative value (making that Melta Bomb more likely to kill it), and you can even throw one at a nearby tank or vehicle when you fire Melta weapons at it just to ensure you get some kind of result off.



Arcane said:


> Looking down the list, Dominions got more expensive by 2 points a model, Retributors increased by 1 point per model (those grenades are just dandy for a unit which sits back and shoots the entire game), Celestians got more expensive by 2 points per model... Leaving the only good unit which got cheaper as Seraphim, one of the bright shining parts of the new codex. Oh, don't forget all those other units which got cheaper, you know the ones no one in their right mind would ever take, like Repentia engines and sisters.


Thanks for saying I'm crazy I guess?

I take Repentia. I take them in just about every list I build and they BUTCHER their way across the field. With Rage now giving +2 attacks on the charge they can EASILLY butcher their way through tanks, walkers, MCs, and a lot of other things you don't want near your army. Plus it's hilarious to use a unit that costs about half of a Landraider to pen it over 12 times in a turn. 

And with Penitent Engines getting better I actually bought 3 recently. New. Unassembled. Direct from GW. And to be fair, I've *just* finished the first one (I'm doing a lot of heavy pinning just to be sure this time). But with the Double Force Org I can easilly take 2 Exorcists, a Squad of Retributors and then use the Penitent Engines to hide behind the Exorcists and deal with anything that tries and close-kill my Organs.

We have options now! And not everything is as heavily competing with each other for those prime slots now!



Arcane said:


> Of course that isn't taking into account upgrades etc which one would normally take, but it was nice to have the option whether or not to take them since my WS3T3S3 SoB can't really make much use out of assault grenades and pistols  So let's add in that Veteran Superior to the C:WH troop unit, making them still 1 point *less* than a C:SoB troop choice, and has rending weapons, 3++ invul saves, 5 initiative or Fearless on a successful faith test in C:WH instead of grenades and pistols in C:SoB. Awesome.


C:WH was a 3rd edition book that was showing it's age. Even with all those slick tricks we were overpaying where it mattered and everyone knew most of that stuff was going away. Even if the WD didn't do it, something would have.



Arcane said:


> Wargear... 4 pages reduces to just 1 (with larger font to fill the single page mind you). The Canoness stripped of most options, hope you didn't have any cool converted models of one, I know I did and it's sitting on a shelf now (Along with my Hereticus Inq and retinue).


Yes we lost a lot of wargear, some of it I really liked too, but there was an equal amount that either didn't work or didn't get used in the newer editions. 

And I agree, one page was too little for Wargear, but when it comes down to it, this is the stuff that we know we're keeping come the new book and won't likely be changing much. EVERYTHING else will be adjusted in some way, shape or form (that or permanently removed because it just doesn't fit anymore).

Does it look like we lost a lot? In some ways we did, at least when you look at Codex: Witch Hunters. But having gotten a hold of the 2nd Edition Sisters of Battle codex (yes I am that much of a Nerd that I tracked one down. I don't feel any shame in admitting it) I think that the White Dwarf isn't a successor to our Inquisition based dex, but rather our 2nd Edition codex. There is a major return to form with the Ecclessiarcy as a whole to that older book, and honestly it's good to have the Cult of the Imperium back instead of Inquisitorial Adventures (featuring the Sisters of Battle) Part Duex.

EDIT: It seems whenever I'm involved in a conversation regarding Sisters I end up posting more walls of text than any other topic I participate in. Funny that.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

If I could find the origianl post I did when the cost issue came up last year, that showed how yes, it was cheaper now, I'd repost it. As it is, I really can't be bothered with the price comparisons *again*. 

If I have time later, I'll sit down at my computer and work it all out again. Right now I have two hungry toddlers to feed.

I also use Repentia and Penitent engines. I use Celestians. I don't dismiss things based on paper, and work out imaginative uses for them. Some work, some don't. Regardless, I have fun. 

And you still have the option for that Hereticus Inquisitor now. And cheaper than before. A bit of imagination and some converting, and you don't even have to include grey knights.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> And you still have the option for that Hereticus Inquisitor now. And cheaper than before. A bit of imagination and some converting, and you don't even have to include grey knights.


A generic Confessor that you can treat as your own named character?

Granted compared to the named Confessors they aren't as good, but they aren't bad either. The named Confessors are just too damn cheap in comparison.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> Did you count in the overall cost with Rhino, or is this without?
> 
> Didn't make much of a difference as you can/could just take a FW version which is properly adjusted for cost (at least at my FLGS). At the time I was having decent success with 20 girl blob squads though or just Immolator with melta riders spam.
> 
> ...


I think you need to bare in mind, I'm not trying to say the new codex is bad. I'm saying I miss all the content of the old one and disparage at GW's nerf/buff method of selling models. 



Zion said:


> A generic Confessor that you can treat as your own named character?
> 
> Granted compared to the named Confessors they aren't as good, but they aren't bad either. The named Confessors are just too damn cheap in comparison.


I don't have much use for Confessors unless their name starts with Uriah, ends with Jacobus and is grouped with a pile of psychopathic killing machines that mince everything on the board. lol



SilverTabby said:


> If I could find the origianl post I did when the cost issue came up last year, that showed how yes, it was cheaper now, I'd repost it. As it is, I really can't be bothered with the price comparisons *again*.
> 
> If I have time later, I'll sit down at my computer and work it all out again. Right now I have two hungry toddlers to feed.
> 
> ...


Idk, the points cost seems to be evident as more expensive, since as I outlines, the Rhino issue wasn't a problem. 

I've tried to show countless examples of why Celestians are terrible. If you enjoy them that's cool but the issue is with the gamesdev who didn't do their homework on the day they were working on them. It makes 0 sense that they cost the same as a SM Tactical Squad with a worse stat line and rely on luck to buff themselves. And, did I ever mention they are the same cost as Seraphim? You know, one of the best units in the entire codex? 

As for the whole GK allies thing well... that's been beaten to death in regards to Sisters so...


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

The Hereticus thing, I meant you can either have yourself a genuine one from the GK book, a retinue with him / her, and a unit of The Emperor Really Loves Me girls (more reliable AoF!) with CC Weapons, or do what I've done in my Penitent army which is Coteaz by another name and figure, and the retinue as troops.

My cost comparisons were based on equally equipped girls, as you now have no choice and back then, not having the equipment was a real handicap unless you were playing horde. I'll redo it when I have time.


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