# no traits now what



## The Thunder Ravens (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi guys so all this merryment over the new space marine codex is all well and good but any one who used the trait rules to create their chapter is now pretty much SCREWED I took the traits cleanse and purify, trust in your battle brothers and thats how alot of my models are armed (free cc weapon for the true grit skill, cleanse and purify allowed you to swap out a tac squads heavy weapon for a special weapon) with the trait rules gone i now have a big problem as squads of less than 10 can no longer take a heavy or special weapon. Anyone know any way round having to re-fit my whole army and is anyone else coming up against the same problems. What do you guys think?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Ha ha! No offence, but I knew this would come up, and I'm an Ultras player.

Now then, I don't really know how you can fix this except for buying a whole new army. Sorry.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm currently playing Raven Guard, and I'm having no trouble with the loss of traits. I still get to make use of my shadow-captain (though I do need to look into different weapons at the moment) and librarian or chaplain and I never used more than two assault squads so the loss of elite slot assault marines is no problem. (Its actually helpful as it freed up some points when the squads lost furious charge, points I used to upgrade one squad to vanguard so at least one member could make use of a high strength power weapon that wasn't a powerfist.)

So yeah, loss of traits means a few of my units lose a veteran skill, or the option of taking certain units in other force org slots; I don't mind to much. In fact, I'm a little happy when it comes to this particular chapter as the transport hindrance is now removed and I can take three fast attack units and three drop pods without problem.


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## fool injected (Sep 14, 2008)

Dude, the new space marine codex is rock solid. I actually like it better than the trait system. You will have to go to 10 man units if you want to utilize heavy weapons or use dev squads. Don't feel bad the IG are going to lose their doctrines which were similiar to SM traits.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I might be missing something, but don't devestator squads not have to be ten strong in order to take heavy weapons?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

darkreever said:


> I might be missing something, but don't devestator squads not have to be ten strong in order to take heavy weapons?


As far as I know you're correct on this.

You guys know who I really feel bad for though? Anyone that took the Take the Fight to Them advantage. Having an army full of troops armed with pistols and combat weapons is gonna suck unless they make the leap to Space Wolves (or Black Templars).


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

My understanding is that 5 strong tac squads can take special weapons, 10 strong tac squads can take specials and heavies, and dev squads can take 4 heavies at 5 strong.

In this case, yes, Thunder Raven, you would conceivably have up to 6 special weapon troopers you can't field, if you had a whole Battle Company to start with (so 12 specials). It's unfortunate if that was the case. I'd advise you to replace those marines with heavies for normal games, and maybe get some more marines to build further squads for if you play Apocalypse.

The whole CC-weapon thing is another whole thing... it's too late at night to even think about that, sorry.

How many special weapons marines do you actually have? And how many tac-squad marines in total?

:looking at the numbers cyclops:


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## Leaf (Feb 8, 2008)

You could refit them to standard tacticals.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> My understanding is that 5 strong tac squads can take special weapons, 10 strong tac squads can take specials and heavies, and dev squads can take 4 heavies at 5 strong.


I took a look at my codex after reading your post Red Orc and it clearly states that tactical squads can only get a special weapon if they are ten strong.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

darkreever said:


> I took a look at my codex after reading your post Red Orc and it clearly states that tactical squads can only get a special weapon if they are ten strong.


So what, make them 10 strong, take the weapons, upgrade them if you must, and use the combat squads rule. 

The loss of chapter traits (one of the reasons I stopped playing loyalists was they added the chapter traits and created "vanilla" space wolves) is not back-breaking for space marines, and is barely a loss. I do feel bad fr those that need to re-fit their marines, but with patience and some hobby knife work, you can replace the pistols with boltguns, and have a ccw in the other arm ( it still looks great)


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

It's nowhere near as bad for Marines as it will be for Guard.

All I "lost"? Furious charge on my assault squads. Boo-hoo.

There ARE special characters who have a rule called "Chapter Tactics," which lets you run things slightly differently.

So, if any of their rules match how you were running things, just proxy someone in.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> As far as I know you're correct on this.
> 
> You guys know who I really feel bad for though? Anyone that took the Take the Fight to Them advantage. Having an army full of troops armed with pistols and combat weapons is gonna suck unless they make the leap to Space Wolves (or Black Templars).


Actually thats not true :biggrin: As I already looked up on the book and in the Tactical marines section, you can exchange your bolters with Closecombat weapons for free 

Myself on the otherhand have no problems with the new dex
All I lose is my Deathwing, But I don't intend to use termies with the new dex :biiggrin:


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Vanchet said:


> Actually thats not true :biggrin: As I already looked up on the book and in the Tactical marines section, you can exchange your bolters with Closecombat weapons for free


Can you please give me a page reference?


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## DarknessDawns (Oct 21, 2007)

my mate has a terrible problem, he plays an all biker SM army, with the traits he could do that, so he had absolutely no tactical squads or infantry
whole converted army gone really


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Vanchet said:


> ...
> Myself on the otherhand have no problems with the new dex
> All I lose is my Deathwing...


?? are you using the DA Codex now? It isn't being replaced. You don't lose anything, unless you _chose_ to go over to Codex SM...

:not getting it cyclops:


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

> ctually thats not true As I already looked up on the book and in the Tactical marines section, you can exchange your bolters with Closecombat weapons for free


no, only the Sargent . 




> ctually thats not true As I already looked up on the book and in the Tactical marines section, you can exchange your bolters with Closecombat weapons for free


as long as he has a captain on a bike he can take five strong bike squads as troops. 
even without the captain on a bike, the command squad can have bikes.
or spaciels. ANY AND EVERY F:shout::shout::shout::shout:G ONE OF THEM! that is sick. I want it!!!:yahoo:


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> Dude, the new space marine codex is rock solid.


More expensive preds, dreds, marines, tactical squads can no longer take two special weapons, sgts can no longer take combi weapons, traits are gone so you've lost alot of combinations. Drop pods are more expensive. Librarians took a nerf, psychic hoods took a nerf, chaplains took a nerf, landspeeders are more expensive, assault cannons took a nerf, terminators can no longer have 2 heavy weapons per 5.

It brings a few new things to the table but it isn't more powerful than the previous codex.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

I have to agree with Jezlad, it's a solid army but I am sitting here with glee that I will be able to keep my near flawless record against marines, they have the same disadvantages as before (their average offense).


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

DarknessDawns said:


> my mate has a terrible problem, he plays an all biker SM army...
> whole converted army gone really


As Godzy was I think trying to point out, he can take something like 47 bikers legally in the new codex. Which isn't much less than the... 62 I think it was in the current 'dex. As I understand it, he can no longer take 3 Elite bike squads, but can still take them as troops and fast attack.

:likin the bikin cyclops:


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## DarknessDawns (Oct 21, 2007)

are bikes troops?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Taking a biker captain "unlocks" them as troops, as I understand it.

:biklops:


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I guess we wait until the new Dex comes out?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Yep/ October 4th.


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## The_Inquisitor (Jul 19, 2008)

Instead of traits, armies can gain bonuses depending on what chapter they are or what character they have in their force. All armies basically get the Combat Tactics rule means all marine units can choose to automatically fail morale checks, giving them a unique move. However this can be exchanged for example: If you field Pedro Kantor (Crimson Fist) then you can exchange the combat tactics rule for the stubborn special rule. This variation will replace the trait system, allowing codex chapter similar bonuses to non-codex chapters like Blood Angels or Templars.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I have the new codex in front of me and the chapter rules which change combat tactics seem a bit lacking compared to traits. But then I dont play SM so most of the traits could have been useless and I would not know. 
The Combat tactics only change if you take a Special character, or if you take a bike Captain which alows squads up to 5 bikers to be counted as troops. Oh and master of the forge lets you take dreads as HS as well as Elites- Hmm 6 Dreads 
Calgar special rule God of War lets every SM with combat tactics fall or pass LD test which is want I thought it did anyway. Also aloud 3 honour squads
Pedro Kantor- Makes them stubbon and Sternguard vets scoring
Lysander-Stubbon so just the same as Pedro but no scoring- thought he made terms troops or something
Shrike-Everybody gets fleet
Vulkan- Meltas,flamers etc twinlinked- Hammers- mastercrafted
Khan-Everybody gets Outflank- If on bike, squads of aleast 5 bikers become troops. A bit of a odd thing, if he is on the bike it says he can run in the shooting phase and has fleet- Why would you run when you have fleet then you can atleast assault ?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Talos said:


> Khan-Everybody gets Outflank- If on bike, squads of aleast 5 bikers become troops. A bit of a odd thing, if he is on the bike it says he can run in the shooting phase and has fleet- Why would you run when you have fleet then you can atleast assault ?


Fleet works differently in 5e, both those with fleet and those without can run, those with can run and assault in the same turn.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Yea I know the rules I just thought it was odd that in his special rules they say he gets run when on a bike. We know people get fleet when on a bike so why say that he also gets run seems a bit pointless.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Talos said:


> Yea I know the rules I just thought it was odd that in his special rules they say he gets run when on a bike. We know people get fleet when on a bike so why say that he also gets run seems a bit pointless.


bikes don't run, they turbo boost, which is different because you are not allowed to do anything other than move, and you have t move over a certain distance to gain the advantage.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

arrr I see I was getting confused with beasts which have fleet. My mistake it makes sense now


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Fair enough, it can easily be done, my buddy and I Still go over the new Ork "Dex combing through it for inconsistencies to go over so we don't get caught with our pants down.


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## Dominic240 (Aug 13, 2008)

Personally i hate how GW are getting rid of traits for the SM, different armys specials rules like the iron warriors fielding basilisks for CSM and apparently theyre getting rid of doctrines for IG. Seriously all theyre doing is getting rid of all individuality in the game. Its stupid


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## Ordog (Mar 28, 2007)

This is realy S**T from GW...In the old Codex you can give normal Marines "infiltration"....so i painted about 20 Marines in Camo.....now it´s gone.

GW want only, thatmore people play the capters they invent (Ultra, Crimson Fist aso...).


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Vanchet said:


> Actually thats not true :biggrin: As I already looked up on the book and in the Tactical marines section, you can exchange your bolters with Closecombat weapons for free
> 
> Myself on the otherhand have no problems with the new dex
> All I lose is my Deathwing, But I don't intend to use termies with the new dex :biiggrin:


I am terribly sorry about that quote (above) as I checked again on my friend's copy and have mislooked.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I have played a few games with the new dex and I like it. I won against Chaos and Tau but lost against eldar. But as I have not played Space Marine before I cant really compare it. 
I have found that I dont use the new Vets at all really they just cost way too much.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Dominic240 said:


> Personally i hate how GW are getting rid of traits for the SM, different armys specials rules like the iron warriors fielding basilisks for CSM and apparently theyre getting rid of doctrines for IG. Seriously all theyre doing is getting rid of all individuality in the game. Its stupid


All of the things you mention have nothing to do with individuality. You do not have to take certain units, and therefore have choice in what your force looks like. Of course they are taking bassies from iron warriors,traits from the space monkeys and doctrines from IG. The systems they were trying out DID NOT work AS INTENDED. This was because you could make some hideously overpowered combinations that would give undue advantage to players that used them. 

Take the lame complaint that iron warriors cannot have bassies, Can you HONESTLY say that it is a fluff argument to complain that you no longer get *4* bassilisks? Of course not, because the complaint is that you can't blow apart your opponents with more artillery than the army that is supposed to have it ( IG, WITH #=3), not that your force lost a flavorfull unit that had as many disadvantages as advantages, and the chatacter of my army is diminished greatly. THe defiler is MORE in character with the iron warrior's fluff, since they are Chaos and siege warriors. It makes more sense for them to use daemonic engines that can tear down walls than to use artillery that can only blow things up.
Look at the development of the game, and you will see MORE variety NOW than you had in 2E, 3E, and 4E. 
This argument that gw is making the game "too vanilla" is lame, it seems that people need to have powerful options before they consider it fluff. Or that maybe they are ignoring the weaker parts of a list, that are still vital to the character of the list.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Im kinda getting screwed by it as my tac squads are 8 man squads with a special and heavy in each. I took the Trust your Battle brothers trait also I modelled my Marines with boltguns and chainswords. This makes me mad because of the money I spent on the extra bits and now I have to restructure my squads and buy more models when I was happy with my squads the way they were. In my opinion, It's just another way for GW to force us to give them more of our money.

Also, If I add a character from another chapter to get the special rules that are now available, it ceases to be MY chapter and becomes one of GW's sanctioned ones. Not cool. I mean, sure I could convert the models to fit my army's theme and use the published rules but that's not the same as having your own Character and I kinda agree that it does detract from the individuality available by making your own chapter, not to mention that it is yet another thing you are required to purchase (see remark above) to make your list competitive with the majority of other players.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

I agree with Son of Mortarion. It sounds like the "fluff" these people wan't is really just cheese...i.e. A Scout squad would be a weaker part of the list, but because they are fluffy and not cheesy, people won't go for them. I will be though. Sgt. Telion! So fluffy and the model is great!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> Im kinda getting screwed by it as my tac squads are 8 man squads with a special and heavy in each. I took the Trust your Battle brothers trait also I modelled my Marines with boltguns and chainswords. This makes me mad because of the money I spent on the extra bits and now I have to restructure my squads and buy more models when I was happy with my squads the way they were. In my opinion, It's just another way for GW to force us to give them more of our money.
> 
> Also, If I add a character from another chapter to get the special rules that are now available, it ceases to be MY chapter and becomes one of GW's sanctioned ones. Not cool. I mean, sure I could convert the models to fit my army's theme and use the published rules but that's not the same as having your own Character and I kinda agree that it does detract from the individuality available by making your own chapter, not to mention that it is yet another thing you are required to purchase (see remark above) to make your list competitive with the majority of other players.


WHy? With some work you could have your chapter be a successor (all chapters are either first-founding or a successor) of that specific chapter. that is how the counts-as rules work.

As for the bolters and chainswords,why change? there are no rules saying they can't have them, it looks kewl, and it is fluffy as all get out. look at the fiction, many times various space marines are depicted with both.


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## Dominic240 (Aug 13, 2008)

To be perfectly honest I dont care as much as i made it sound in my first post since my main armys tau and they never had anything like that to begin with sooooo.
Happy ranting


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> As for the bolters and chainswords,why change? there are no rules saying they can't have them, it looks kewl, and it is fluffy as all get out. look at the fiction, many times various space marines are depicted with both.


Well that is the problem there is no rule saying they can have them. Normal tac marines can not have a chainsword and boltpistol. They are armed with boltgun + Boltpistol which still gets them +1 attack for another CCW weapon. But I am sure people would not mind if you still used your old models.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Talos said:


> They are armed with boltgun + Boltpistol which still gets them +1 attack for another CCW weapon.


+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit – you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons.

Page 37.

A bolter is a two hand weapon, they do not get the +1 attack for another CCW.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

That's true carry on forgetting they arnt CSM. Well if you have a load of Chainsaw SM they could always been ASM just with out jetpacks.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Yeah, but they have bolters, not pistols so using them for assault marines are out too.

I'm not so upset for the rules implications, the models look cool with the Chainswords, mostly it's because of all the money I spent that now is wasted. All of the money I spent on those assault arms would be really handy now since I have to update my army to make it legal. GW forcing me to buy more models. Convenient for them isn't it?

I appreciate your opinion Son of Mortarion, you have a good point, but my point is this. I already have an army that *I* finished, built within *my* certain mindset of how it should operate, came up with *my* own fluff for and has it's own original feel and fighting style. Why should I have to change everything I love about *my* army by making it a GW sanctioned Chapter or Successor just to be able to play a competetive game? 
It's not fair of them to force such a change on anybody.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

You can leave them on easily. WYSIWYG does not work backwards too. you have to have the equipment that model has modelled onto him, however you do not have to have a rule for every bit of equipment modelled on. I have sergeants with two chainswords and a holster on them. they're still perfectly usable as they have the equipment they have in the unit entry modelled on them, plus some more....


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

I took the trust your battle brothers and cleanse and purify traits in 4th ed. and I'm perfectly fine with leaving them as they are, holding a bolter and a chainsword/combat knife. It is perfectly fluffy as mentioned before, since space marines do carry a close combat weapon with them at all times, its just not fair to give them one in-game. As for the two special weapons, I never had enough melta guns anyway, so I don't mind. All it takes is a few tactical squad boxes I was getting anyway, and it will all fit.

The special characters do not have to look exactly as GW made them. With a little bit of cutting and bit-swapping it should look orginal.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I'm as bummed as the next guy about losing Traits, although I can see how they really were pretty easily exploited for people using them for an in-game advantage more than creating their own Chapter. 

I used Trust Your Battle Brothers and Have Faith in Suspicion. Just because the majority of my Astartes are packing close combat weapons and bolters doesn't mean they're illegal models anymore. Having the close combat weapon just doesn't benefit them anymore. It's assumed that every Space Marine carries some kind of sharp object, if only in fluff and not rules. I figure that instead of making an extra attack in combat, it'll be made up in bolt pistol fire. I'll miss Counterattack now that it's good, but again, whatever.

The thing I actually am more annoyed with is that I'm losing the Have Faith in Suspicion drawback. That sounds nuts, I know. However, I know people are going to encourage me to bring a Librarian now, since I can, and I'm going to get tired of explaining that my Chapter doesn't have Librarians every time someone looks at my army list. It was nice to just be able to point to the Trait and let that speak for itself. I mean, it does open up an avenue of modelling opportunities, like modelling a chaplain that "counts as" a librarian and have the psychic powers act like acts of faith or the battle prayers of an Empire Warrior Priest in fantasy, but still... 

I'm a little sympathetic about losing Cleanse and Purify for those who brought it. The good news is that it's quite easy to replace the special weapons with bolters, assuming you didn't use plastic glue and melt the model together. I always only glue the weapons to the trigger hand and let the gripping hand hold it unglued so I can easily pop weapons off to replace them if need be. If you have to buy more models, it's not the end of the world... I mean, you can never have too many Space Marines, and if you [start] pay[ing] attention to the fluff then you can easily build it up to a full Company from your 2000-point min-max whatever rosters.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

If you had an entire battle company with the 'Cleanse and Purify' trait it will cost you a grand total of 18 pounds for the minis to make it force legal. Marine lists haven't been boned like other armies in codex updates.

And yes, your current army list may now be a bag of shite with the new rules, but look on the update as a chance to try out some new units that no-one ever touched under the old rules.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Jezlad said:


> More expensive preds, dreds, marines, tactical squads can no longer take two special weapons, sgts can no longer take combi weapons, traits are gone so you've lost alot of combinations. Drop pods are more expensive. Librarians took a nerf, psychic hoods took a nerf, chaplains took a nerf, landspeeders are more expensive, assault cannons took a nerf, terminators can no longer have 2 heavy weapons per 5.
> 
> It brings a few new things to the table but it isn't more powerful than the previous codex.


Assault Cannons too? Bastards. More expensive predators? You know what....:ireful2:

It hardly seems like the positives outway the negatives in this new piece of crap they are calling a codex.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

More expensive Preds? Points-wise? That must be a lie! A Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters equals a grand total of 85 points, as it says in the Rulebook. Terminators can have a Heavy 2 weapon with 5 men. It's called a Cyclone Missile Launcher.:grin:


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I think he meant two heavy weapons not a heavy 2 weapon. That really sucks though because 2 AC's in the squad was nice to have.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Its not as though you can no longer have two in the squad; they just put a requirement on what you need to do in order to take the second one. (Which is what they should have done all along, because terminators started out with the option of only one heavy weapon in a five man team when they first were introduced.)


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## Arch_inquisitor (Jan 4, 2008)

It's not as though the whole range isn't suffering from the generic treatment 'rules wise'.
They are trying to appeal to a younger demographic and they need less confusion in the rules. Heck the necrons are going to lose most of their weird rules for more generic versions. It's simply the way things are gonna go. 

But as what might be considered a fluff player I don't need any special rules too make an army unique. 

Just as an aside Librarians may have taken a nerf but didn't they just get some devastating (or at least buffed ) new psychic powers?.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Arch_inquisitor said:


> Just as an aside Librarians may have taken a nerf but didn't they just get some devastating (or at least buffed ) new psychic powers?.


Nerf? Hardly.

As of the new Codex, they're unbelievable curbstomping machines.

They just aren't QUITE as good at it solo.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

Is it me or am I the only 1 who dosn't know any thing about the new sm codex(bar the names of the 2 new veterans & HQ)?


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## Arch_inquisitor (Jan 4, 2008)

> They just aren't QUITE as good at it solo.


Thus the nerf comment even if it is a minor one but my question stands did their psychic powers get a buff to balance out the 'minor' nerf. All I got was wind of the stat line and equipment lists.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes they have very nice Psychic powers and I think they are very balanced for there cost


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> More expensive Preds? Points-wise? That must be a lie! A Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters equals a grand total of 85 points, as it says in the Rulebook.


Predator Annihilator. The only one worth taking.

What use is a tank with two str 7 shots and six str 5 that can only fire one weapon if it moves?

The annihilator almost guarantees you a str 9 hit. Effective firepower.

I don't lie.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Jezlad said:


> Predator Annihilator. The only one worth taking.


Damn right!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> I think he meant two heavy weapons not a heavy 2 weapon. That really sucks though because 2 AC's in the squad was nice to have.


very nice, but I do have to say that the thought of a double krak missle or laying down 2 blast templates sounds like a fair trade. In all, with the minor increase in cost versus the many new tricks and modeling opportunities, in the end, we win.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

havent gotten a new 'dex yet (to poor to get the spearhead, being a college student and all) but if the rumors about the Chaplain loosing a wound are true, then they took a pretty big hit compared to the "nerfing" Librarians took. That fact vexes me more then losing my traits, as they were really not all that much help (had counter-attack and Trust Your Battle Brothers, a really great combo, it was), Chaplains on the other hand are extremely usefull (re-rolling to hit on the attack, combined with a bunch of termies with paired lighting claws re-rolling on the wound... its epic, really) losing that wound, well, it was an unecessay nerf, if you ask me, why would the chaplain have 1 less wound than the lib. and the capt. seeing as no existing fluff says they should die faster...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Both chaplains and librarians lost their higher wound type in the new codex, so the librarian doesn't get to survive more in combat than the chaplain in that regard.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I think they did that to give the captain something special. After all the captains are meant to be the finest warriors in the chapter. Also now "chapter masters" (ie Marneus and Pedro) have 4 wounds. I hope the new SW codex buffs Logan, he should be able to smash stupid papasmurf into the dirt. 4 wounds and Eternal Warrior would do.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Bah, Logan doesn't need to be brought up to papasmurfs level; he'll always be better. Sure Calgar beat back a hive fleet, but Grimnar is still the one who's tactics beat back Angron and his legion. The Ultramarines have never beaten an enemy primarch after they lost Guilliman to stasis.:biggrin:


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

And? Leman Russ isn't dead. Roboute Guilliman is just about at the same level as the Emperor right now. Besides, old Marneus held back an entire greenskin Waaagh! for a night and a day _on his own_ at the Siege of Zalathras. I doubt logan did the same with the Chaos Legion.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

While I'll admit that Grimnar may not have something like that under his own belt, there will always be the beating Angron in the first war, alongside Logan leading the council of chapters during the thirteenth black crusade, and even his company and a company of Dark Angels led by Azreal holding off the forces of chaos on one world on their own.

Gotta love that new fluff smell for papasmurf though huh, beats one or two long quotes any day.:biggrin:

[When you think about it, Calgar is more an unwilling Iron Hand than Ultramarine; given that he's more machine than man and all.]


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Yeah, he's like Anakin Skywalker! All of his limbs are Bionic (except his left arm I think). But he compensates for his left arm with his eye! 
Anyway... oh, I seem to have forgotten what to say. Oh well. i'll remember soon enough.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Calgar is like a dead rat; you didn't really want him ther in the first place and he's constantly changing into more piles of crap - dead rat, rotting corpse, mouldy pile, good ol' fashioned crap after a while....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cato Sicarius said:


> I doubt logan did the same with the Chaos Legion.


only because no chaos legion will ever be dumb enough to try it because they know what would happen


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Let's get back on topic, guys. Somehow I'm fairly confident that a thread about the lack of traits in the new book doesn't deserve to have "My Chapter/Legion is better than yours!" and similar debates in it.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

Yes its annoying traits are gone I loved my true grit and counter attack tactical squads but I think GW did this so more people would play first founding chapters like ultras, salamanders, BA etc. But if you still want your own chapter (like me) take a special character which is from a chapter sililar to your own like vulkan, pedro or calgar and re-name him. Its what I'm doing with Vulkan.


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