# Finecast is Fine....Finally



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Ok this isnt a rumour, im classing this as news, Over the last however many months Finecast has got a bad rep, mainly due to a pretty poor launch coupled with the usual levels of internet over reactions and a few Indie sellers sticking there oars in because of the GW embargo.

Anyway, for the most part i havent had many problems with the stuff, but i did however get a few inconsistencys over time. 

But i have to say lately something has changed , i have been getting excellent casts every time i open a kit since christmas and its across the range, someone in the finecast department seems to have figured out how to get a good cast pretty consistently, i have noticed that the outer sprue is thicker and the resin also feels firmer than it did, also the sprues have more consistent flow paths than before. Anyway i have opened 4 unrelated fine cast kits with many multiple parts and i have zero defects and only a minute amount of flash on one sprue, no warping,no thinning, no air bubbles, very crisp detail.

just thought i would mention it as i think some people still avoid the material.


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## jd579 (May 8, 2010)

Nice, I have had issues with it like everyone else, I may trust your judgement next time I'm caught in 2 minds about a purchase.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

I've actually had satisfying experiences with Finecast, but, its nice to hear its working out better across the entire range.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I did notice when the DA models were released that Finecast looked a lot better than it used to. I've actually had very few problems considering the amount of Finecast I have purchased. Maybe I'm just luckier than some, though my die rolling disagrees with that statement.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Yep this is my experience too down under. It has certainly improved since the first batches. 
GW not listening to the market again ..... oh hang on

Only problem is that the stuff still melts in the heat down here. (Not joking)


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Yep this is my experience too down under. It has certainly improved since the first batches.
> GW not listening to the market again ..... oh hang on
> 
> Only problem is that the stuff still melts in the heat down here. (Not joking)


Is that inside your house where its melting?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

well i have just snapped a few photos of some stuff i opened today to highlight what i was saying, im also going to resnap some stuff for the site to replace old metal pictures too.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Bits, would you consider opening a Texas store? Please!


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

There was a report some months ago that GW has completely changed they way they cast "failcast" nowdays. It's done in a completely sterile environment and the people who work there have to wear those white overalls that people who work with computer chips wear so as not to contaminate the room. The casts are also done using vacuum casting instead of the alleged pour casting that was done in the beginning.

This does however have the drawback of few casts per hour than before but with allot fewer miscasts that need replacing profits are up. It is however slow and labour intensive which is why GW plans on going plastic for everything as they phase out older models over time.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

well the vacuum casting report may have some legs, the quality i have been seeing is much closer to what i expect from FW who vacuum cast, Forge world have experimented with the spin cast resin for a while last year, i got a few spun cast severin loth kits through, but they seem to have dropped the method along with the china produced shite they tried for a while, i will talk to my resin guru and see if he will confirm or deny the switch to vacuum casting.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I'd think Svart could probably comment on how the stuffs cast without breaking any of his disclosure agreements...

But personally, i've never had any problems with finecast.... Okay, the occasionaly warped peice or small air bubble, but thats easily fixed with a little heat and a tiny blob of glue/green stuff. 

I think alot of people forgot the troubles the old metal cast had... Having to file and hammer and bend and saw some bits to get it to work... along with the low detail quality.

Anyway.. that aside, have to say that yes, the later stuff is much better quality then the first few releases. Finecast now is perfectly fine.

Appart from the price that is.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

This may be a dumb and now redundant question, but why even bother with finecast?

The level of detail in the plastic minis out of the DV boxed set was ridiculous. That goes the same for my Death Company. I don't own any other armies really so I can't comment across the board, but I'm sure there are tons of other elaborately detailed plastic kits that people rarely have problems with. I mean, sure. My finecast terminator librarian looks really friggin' cool, but why couldn't that have been the plastic used for other kits?

Sorry for the potentially obtuse question. I honestly just don't get it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ntaw said:


> This may be a dumb and now redundant question, but why even bother with finecast?
> 
> The level of detail in the plastic minis out of the DV boxed set was ridiculous. That goes the same for my Death Company. I don't own any other armies really so I can't comment across the board, but I'm sure there are tons of other elaborately detailed plastic kits that people rarely have problems with. I mean, sure. My finecast terminator librarian looks really friggin' cool, but why couldn't that have been the plastic used for other kits?
> 
> Sorry for the potentially obtuse question. I honestly just don't get it.


well as much as i agree with you, the answer is availability, try making an all plastic craftworld army for example. 
I grant you with some armies its pefectly feasable to avoid resin/metal altogether, with others it gets much harder, though it gets easier year on year.

funny though, not that long ago, plastic was a joke material only really good for tanks,everyone swore by metal models.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> the answer is availability, try making an all plastic craftworld army for exampl


Plastic is less available than finecast? So the reason GW is using this finecast resin is that they don't have the ability to get more plastic.

EDIT: I don't mean in the store. I mean as a material available to them as a company to use to make their products. I'm aware there is so much finecast. Is it harder to cast plastic than it is to cast resin? ....does that question even make sense?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ntaw said:


> Plastic is less available than finecast? So the reason GW is using this finecast resin is that they don't have the ability to get more plastic.
> 
> EDIT: I don't mean in the store. I mean as a material available to them as a company to use to make their products. I'm aware there is so much finecast. Is it harder to cast plastic than it is to cast resin? ....does that question even make sense?


Not the material, plastic kits available to make an eldar army, there are not very many plastic kits for eldar, there are more resin models for eldar than plastic.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

OK. I see what I have done here. As consumers, we have to buy finecast. I get that.

But.

As a company, why does GW choose to make finecast models? Why don't they just ditch finecast entirely since it's seemingly riddled with problems and focus on creating more of the excellent casts they have been doing in grey plastic for all of their products?


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I agree on the 'why do we even need finecast' point. Lately, the detail on plastic has become so high that it completely rivals finecast, plus, its cheaper to produce... 

Thing is though from a business point of view, they can sell finecast for more as you think your getting a better product.... better product = more money.

However, as stated, as the standard of plastics are still rising, finecast starts to become redundant... heck, they already make some plastic character models.. so really teh only excuse for not making everything plastic is probably the cost of the moulds and runtime on the machinery.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ntaw said:


> OK. I see what I have done here. As consumers, we have to buy finecast. I get that.
> 
> But.
> 
> As a company, why does GW choose to make finecast models? Why don't they just ditch finecast entirely since it's seemingly riddled with problems and focus on creating more of the excellent casts they have been doing in grey plastic for all of their products?


Investment vs sales, to produce a platic kits costs a few thousand for the mold, then the designers wages,artist wages,boxes etcetc , but they have to weigh it up vs sales, how many commander farsight do they think they will sell? A thousand? Two thousand ? So they have to weigh up whats gonna sell enough to make it worthwhile to invest in a plastic mold


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

While I may be incorrect, resin molds are much cheaper to make when compared to their plastic counterparts. Plastic models are created for something that will likely get the company the full return (i.e. units that everyone wants) as opposed to special characters that may not sell enough quantity wise to justify the expenditures required to build and maintain a plastic mold press.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

ntaw said:


> OK. I see what I have done here. As consumers, we have to buy finecast. I get that.
> 
> But.
> 
> As a company, why does GW choose to make finecast models? Why don't they just ditch finecast entirely since it's seemingly riddled with problems and focus on creating more of the excellent casts they have been doing in grey plastic for all of their products?


:goodpost:

I've wondered about that same thing for a while now.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Boc said:


> While I may be incorrect, resin molds are much cheaper to make when compared to their plastic counterparts. Plastic models are created for something that will likely get the company the full return (i.e. units that everyone wants) as opposed to special characters that may not sell enough quantity wise to justify the expenditures required to build and maintain a plastic mold press.


Then why the plastic chaos champion? Hmm.... maybe he really did miss the DV bus.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

It's the molds.

I thought they could use the old metal molds for finecast in some way.

To convert to plastic they have to make very expensive new molds. Big$$$ / number of models sold does not lead to cost effective models for many things.

Obviously things like rhinos, Dark Vengeance box set, etc. are all things they will many millions of so it becomes more cost effective to make those plastic.


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## deathwatch27 (Dec 30, 2009)

I think the original idea was the price of metal was skyrocketing so resin "failcast" was a cheaper alternative to plastic in the short term. Now the quaility issues are sorted they can continue the long term plan to change over to full plastic mini's. As people have said plastic is more expensive to mold but quick resin models kept the money flow for future investments


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Boc said:


> While I may be incorrect, resin molds are much cheaper to make when compared to their plastic counterparts. Plastic models are created for something that will likely get the company the full return (i.e. units that everyone wants) as opposed to special characters that may not sell enough quantity wise to justify the expenditures required to build and maintain a plastic mold press.





deathwatch27 said:


> I think the original idea was the price of metal was skyrocketing so resin "failcast" was a cheaper alternative to plastic in the short term. Now the quaility issues are sorted they can continue the long term plan to change over to full plastic mini's. As people have said plastic is more expensive to mold but quick resin models kept the money flow for future investments


I am now "in the know". Thanks guys.

As bonus intelligence, it would be interesting to see the cost of making what we are referring to as a good plastic mold and always having a bang on product vs. the cost of numerous failed resin casts and some customers hating the system so much they refuse to buy the product.

I would hope it's a friggin' astronomical difference to put up with people coming back to their stores with what appears to be a common problem. I know there are a lot of people with the patience to deal with the finecast issues, and the degree of these issues is wholly in the eye of the beholder and the amount of effort they are willing to put forth to the hobby. It just seems crazy to me that GW would be willing to be so hit or miss with their products, even if they are willing to trade it in for a new one for free. Great customer service is one thing, not forcing your customers into using that service would be better.

I hope that what you have posted, Bits, is true and that finecast has turned over a new leaf in their consistency. Otherwise I'll still be just as pissed about the quality vs. the cost and continue to not buy finecast but instead to convert my character models as best as I can. That dissatisfaction has at least made me more comfortable with Kneadatite.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I can certainly vouch for the increased quality in finecast, certainly from around September was probably when they started looking at the new process, as when I got my gamesday model, the quality of the casting was the best I had ever seen and was consistent with all my friends.

with the molds they use finecast/metal for characters because they aren't going to sell loads of those, for instance characters, each army only needs one.

Plastic molds cost a lot to make and will often have a lot of spare bitz. This is also most likly why we are seeing more boxes which can build multiple things, such as DA knights/terminator command squad or Raptors/Warp talons


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

My Belial model has an absolutely phenominal level of detail on it. Sure, Dark Vengeance had some pretty nice models (mainly the Chaos stuff, but the Librarian and Terminator Sergeant were very nice too), but my Finecast stuff has been far, far higher quality than any plastic model I've ever seen.

Midnight


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I've only bought one finecast mini, Cato Sicaruis. I'd deliberately left it until this month in the hopes that these issues had resolved themselves. No luck I'm afraid. The first one had air bubbles in both helmets (not major, could have been fixed), a chunk missing from the base of the standard and the front detail was coming away from his torso, in addition it wasn't crisp and his neck gorgot wasn't complete. This one had been in ordered in from GW so it would have been one of the new casts (I bought it from an Indie). So I got a refund and went to the local GW and got the two of the shelf. One was fine but the other had a issues with the front of the torso again. 1/3 isn't really good enough but maybe being at the bottom of the world NZ's supply is fair behind everybody elses.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Is that inside your house where its melting?


Yep. Any thin details on the minis go very soft in the heat. My Valkia and Jump Chaplain minis which are standing on tippy toes simply droop over flat. I had to reinforce them with a paper clip. The sword on my Isabella Vampire Lord curls up like a wood shaving and I have given up trying to straighten it.



ntaw said:


> As bonus intelligence, it would be interesting to see the cost of making what we are referring to as a good plastic mold and always having a bang on product vs. the cost of numerous failed resin casts and some customers hating the system so much they refuse to buy the product.


For GW it is more along the lines of the cost of not having a mini to sell compared to having a product on the shelf.

Modern business principals say that a crap product available for sale is always better than spending time to get a good one happening. It's a total bollocks but it is the way it works. If you wait someone else gets the sale or pinches your market. In GW's case shit like the Chapter House thing don't help.


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## Charandris (Nov 27, 2012)

In the case of the stuff getting better (Ive seen loads of kits opened in store recently and theyve all been great) i think i just might grab that hell new finecast hellcannon kit.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Charandris said:


> .... think i just might grab that hell new finecast hellcannon kit.


Want !


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

I don't know, I've had a few issues with bubbles in Finecast post Christmas, though I have no idea when the kits were actually cast as the ones I have weren't major models anyway. No drooping though yet and they replaced any problems I had so not really scared off here.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> There was a report some months ago that GW has completely changed they way they cast "failcast" nowdays. It's done in a completely sterile environment and the people who work there have to wear those white overalls that people who work with computer chips wear so as not to contaminate the room. The casts are also done using vacuum casting instead of the alleged pour casting that was done in the beginning.


 Er...no. On all counts


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> Er...no. On all counts


Well that quashed that theory :grin:


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Svartmetall said:


> Er...no. On all counts


 Is it possible for you to comment at all on the process? Or, how many Finecast can be produced in one day?


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Is that inside your house where its melting?


I bought a Necron lord when the new codex came out. By the time I got home (about 15min drive), the staff was so soft it wouldn't stay straight, it would just droop.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Insanity said:


> the staff was so soft it wouldn't stay straight, it would just droop.


I've heard that can happen after a night on the ale :laugh:




Seriously though, I've only bought one thing in finecast (Arjac) and the hammer was all kinds of twisted. The rest of the figure was pretty damn good and I just replaced the arm with a spare from my bitz 
I'll probably be able to comment further once my CSM project is up and running


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Insanity said:


> I bought a Necron lord when the new codex came out.


Here's a perfect example of 'why not plastic?'. I mean really. How much detail is on this guy vs. how much time I spent filling holes and straightening his damn warscythe vs. (yeah, third vs.) how many people buy this model for their go-to res orb lord. I understand a lot better now the reasons behind Finecast, and as much as I disagree with them I get it. I am still saddened that all the threads that get started about it seem to end up with more people saying that it sucks as opposed to people saying they like it.

Not that there aren't amazingly cast pieces from time to time. It does seem like everyone's happy with their second to fourth cast of the same model, myself more or less included. It comes across as almost unicorn esque in its rarity to get a perfect one right off the hop and at about 25-35 bucks a model I just can't get behind that.

As a bonus, here's what good ol' Will Shatner and my man Hank Rollins can and can't get behind: Absolute hilarity.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ntaw said:


> Here's a perfect example of 'why not plastic?'. I mean really. How much detail is on this guy vs. how much time I spent filling holes and straightening his damn warscythe vs. (yeah, third vs.) how many people buy this model for their go-to res orb lord. I understand a lot better now the reasons behind Finecast, and as much as I disagree with them I get it. I am still saddened that all the threads that get started about it seem to end up with more people saying that it sucks as opposed to people saying they like it.
> 
> Not that there aren't amazingly cast pieces from time to time. It does seem like everyone's happy with their second to fourth cast of the same model, myself more or less included. It comes across as almost unicorn esque in its rarity to get a perfect one right off the hop and at about 25-35 bucks a model I just can't get behind that.
> 
> As a bonus, here's what good ol' Will Shatner and my man Hank Rollins can and can't get behind: Absolute hilarity.



thing is you tend to get people bringing up the same model being shit more than once, so its seems much worse than it actually is, studies have shown that people will tell 5 times more people about a negative experience than a positive one. Thats one of the reasons i decided to post this thread, when finecast was launched there was a whole torches and pitchforks thing going on, anyone who got the slightest issue(including a hair being in a packet ffs) swore they were going to march on Nottingham and burn down the cast room at GW HQ, now i see more finecast up close than most and for the most part i havent had many problems, but like i said in the opening post its got so much better and more consistantly good in my opinion, plastic is a great medium and gets great detail and is now the prefered choice, but i can ever see a time where all models are plastic, some characters will remain resin .


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Well said, Bits.

Since it isn't going away, one can only hope that through the trials of making them en masse they can keep improving the quality of the product. Who knows, maybe if I keep seeing posts like this one stating they are becoming more consistent I may even decide to buy something from Finecast again.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Is it possible for you to comment at all on the process? Or, how many Finecast can be produced in one day?


How many we make in one day...I honestly couldn't tell you. Once I've cut a mould in, that's sort of the end of my involvement with it unless it comes back for repair; I never see numbers and such as I deal purely with making the moulds, not the actual order quantities. 

As for the process, I'm not 100% sure what I can or can't comment upon so I'd best not say anything. It's definitely _not_ men in NBC gear in a sterile environment though :biggrin:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Any ideas on how we can stop it melting Svart ?

If you don't know can you ask someone?


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> As for the process, I'm not 100% sure what I can or can't comment upon so I'd best not say anything. It's definitely _not_ men in NBC gear in a sterile environment though :biggrin:


No, it's two kids with a paint bucket filled with goop and a wooden spoon. We know _that _much.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Any ideas on how we can stop it melting Svart ?
> 
> If you don't know can you ask someone?


Don't live somewhere with spiders the size of your fucking dinner plate


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Don't live somewhere with spiders the size of your fucking dinner plate


They are the little ones.

But I am serious y'know


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Svartmetall said:


> As for the process, I'm not 100% sure what I can or can't comment upon so I'd best not say anything. It's definitely _not_ men in NBC gear in a sterile environment though :biggrin:


Yeah, I didn't think Finecast was produced in an environment similar to what Nissan used when constructing GTR motors.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I dont think there is much we can do magpie. The temperatures that are reccomended for straightening warped resin models are regularly achieved in the environment where we are. Insulate your model cases. Move somewhere cooler, store you models with your beer(that might work) AC your games room. Some alternatives. My decimators butcher cannon blade keeps going curvey for this reason also.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

shaantitus said:


> I dont think there is much we can do magpie. The temperatures that are reccomended for straightening warped resin models are regularly achieved in the environment where we are. Insulate your model cases. Move somewhere cooler, store you models with your beer(that might work) AC your games room. Some alternatives. My decimators butcher cannon blade keeps going curvey for this reason also.


Yeh thought that might be the case.

Plastic swords and paper clip legs it is then!


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