# Battleships' crew



## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

So, I was wondering, what's the average amount of crew within an Emperor class battleship? Counting even the last shoveling rats in the holds. 

Also, aside from Captain, first officer, master of ordnance, master surgeon , naval commissar, chief navigator, chief astropath, chief techpriest, naval militia commander...do we have any other important figurehead on imperial ships? 

Finally, I recall a picture from the BFG rulebook showing the bridge crew, including surgeon and commissar. I can't find it anymore, any idea on which rulebook it is located?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

If you count the Servitors, a battleship that size has an immense crew. But as far as living, thinking humans, you've covered most of them. If I recall, there are at least 4 Astropaths on any ship as big or bigger than a Battle Barge. As for figureheads, it can all come down to passengers and/or guests. An Inquisitor can get passage on any Imperium vessel as can most high-ranking Ad Mech Tech Priests. Then of course, with the size of the vessel you've chosen, it could be a command ship, thus you could have a Fleet Commander and his retinue on board. Lastly, I regret I cannot help with the picture. It sounds like a good one though.


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## Capussa (Jun 22, 2012)

An Emperor Class battleship is likely to have approximately a million souls onboard

I think the picture you are after is on pages 90 & 91 of the BFG rule book, if so it should also be pointed out the picture lists Logisticans who monitor the flow of technical data and the fact that there are over 1000 of them


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## Capussa (Jun 22, 2012)

An Emperor Class battleship is likely to have approximately a million souls onboard

I think the picture you are after is on pages 90 & 91 of the BFG rule book, if so it should also be pointed out the picture lists Logisticans who monitor the flow of technical data and the fact that there are over 1000 of them


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

Pages 90 & 91 seem to be missing on the online resource manuals on gw site...what am I doing wrong?


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

My vote goes for millions of minions in the miniscule confines of the emperor class battleships


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Going by the personnel complement of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, which lets round to 6000 and it's volume, lets round it to 2km and a conservative size estimate for a battleship (lets say 8km long, 500m wide and 500m deep) so 8000km of volume you get a possible crew size of 6 million. 

Now whether there's actually 6 million people aboard i don't know. It seems obscenely large though.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ADB's pitches a Grand Cruiser's crew at 25k, if I recall correctly. A battleship isn't ALL that much bigger. I'd say 40k max, depending on the battleship. I'd imagine the ones heavy with strike craft have more than those that don't.

As for the main crew, I'd also put up Master of Auxpex and Master of Good-old-fashion-radio.



Rems said:


> Going by the personnel complement of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, which lets round to 6000 and it's volume, lets round it to 2km and a conservative size estimate for a battleship (lets say 8km long, 500m wide and 500m deep) so 8000km of volume you get a possible crew size of 6 million.


The Nimitz isn't going to be anywhere near 2 kilometers cubed.

Your theoretical battleship (assuming it was a giant box that was 8000m x 500m x 500m) would be 2 KM cubed.

After all, one cubed kilometer is 1 BILLION cubed meters. (1000*1000*1000)


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

hailene said:


> The Nimitz isn't going to be anywhere near 2 kilometers cubed.
> 
> Your theoretical battleship (assuming it was a giant box that was 8000m x 500m x 500m) would be 2 KM cubed.
> 
> After all, one cubed kilometer is 1 BILLION cubed meters. (1000*1000*1000)


Ah ha, you're right. I had a cubed kilometer as a million cubed metres. Thanks for the catch. I thought 6 mill was insane. 

Somewhere in the (low) tens of thousands sounds about right.


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

Forgot the Confessor...

Btw, any idea on the missing pages? I really want that pic!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> Ah ha, you're right. I had a cubed kilometer as a million cubed metres. Thanks for the catch. I thought 6 mill was insane.


Still, if we assume a Nimitz is a giant box (which it isn't but we'll pretend) it only works out to .00015343 cubed kilometers. Compared to the giant box battleship (which it isn't, too), the battleship would still be ~13,000 more volume than a Nimitz.

Still, that wouldn't help us. We don't know how much machinery space takes up. Or deck sizes. Walls may take up a greater volume within the battleship. Heck, space is plain used differently. Like having many massive cathedrals within the battleship.

Also it's designed to have people live on there indefinitely. Carrier crews aren't expected to live on the ship for years at a time. Nor with their families.

It's not worth trying to extrapolate.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

Just going by the sheer size of the things and the descriptions in the books, I'd say if you mean "foot mobiles", probably 30,000-40,000 ish. Including servitors and so forth you'd probably be looking at 60-80k. I can't imagine they'd have some flunkie there getting paid, sleeping, and eating the food when they could have some flunkie who's _volunteered_ to give himself up for the betterment of the Imperium.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Calistrasza said:


> Just going by the sheer size of the things and the descriptions in the books, I'd say if you mean "foot mobiles", probably 30,000-40,000 ish. Including servitors and so forth you'd probably be looking at 60-80k. I can't imagine they'd have some flunkie there getting paid, sleeping, and eating the food when they could have some flunkie who's _volunteered_ to give himself up for the betterment of the Imperium.


In is Eisenhorn, or Ravenor pretty sure Eisenhorn, a Rouge trader's ship was crewed by almost nothing but servitor.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

locustgate said:


> In is Eisenhorn, or Ravenor pretty sure Eisenhorn, a Rouge trader's ship was crewed by almost nothing but servitor.


Servitors don't form unions, they don't drink all the coffee in the break room, you can stand there like a tourist at Buckingham Palace and make faces at them to amuse yourself.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Calistrasza said:


> Servitors don't form unions, they don't drink all the coffee in the break room, you can stand there like a tourist at Buckingham Palace and make faces at them to amuse yourself.


Not arguing with he I believe his reason was because servitors are humans perfected, and it was reveled that he was turning he was heavily augmented.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

It was in the Eisenhorn series. Yes, completely crewed by servitors.

Some people on the board argued that the Navigator wasn't a servitor, despite some evidence to the contrary...


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

*battleship*

I thought imperial ships were supposed to be the size of some cities, especially the larger ones.
Theres a website that has ship sizes you can look at somewhere


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Length wise, they'd definitely match some small towns. Volume, not so much.

Still, 30-40,000 people is a fair sized town, at least.


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## spindrift (Jun 7, 2012)

Well I was reading Betrayer over the weekend and they said that the blessed Lady of the Word Bearers had half a million souls. And that ship was bigger than even Angrons flag ship.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

spindrift said:


> Well I was reading Betrayer over the weekend and they said that the blessed Lady of the Word Bearers had half a million souls.


Well, they're not exactly an STC design, eh? They're freaking huge. Enough that a pair of them made a mockery of "one of the best-defended worlds in the Imperium". A time when the Imperium probably was its strongest.

Second, it probably had a lot of cultists and extra crew. The Word Bearers are fond of using human rabble for their wars. Also they like to have to have as many people worshiping the gods as possible.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

“The [Imperial Tempest-class frigate] Highness Ser Armaduke was an old ship. It was an artefact of considerable size. All ships of the fleet were large. The Armaduke measured a kilometre and a half from prow to stern, and a third of that dimension abeam across the fins. Its realspace displacement was six point two megatonnes, and it carried thirty-two thousand, four hundred and eleven lives, including the entire Tanith First and its regimental retinue. It was like a slice cut from a hive, formed into a spearhead shape and mounted on engines.”

Excerpt From: Abnett, Dan. “Salvation's Reach.” Black Library, 2011-08. iBooks. 
This material may be protected by copyright.

Extrapolate away; you're welcome! :wink:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Numbers (just like the ship lengths) are all over the place.

The Rogue Trader rulebook follows (or rather Abnett follows, since it came first) Abnett's estimation.

The frigates are listed with ~26,000 and ~30,500 crew. This matches well with Abnett's since the Tanith (recently reinforced) probably added 2-3 thousand men.

The rulebook also gives crew count for a Dauntless light cruiser and Lunar-class cruiser as ~65,000 and 95,000 respectively.

_Soul Hunter_ gives us 25,000 for a Grand Cruiser. Maybe it was understaffed due to its second line condition? 

I'll revise my estimation. A battleship ranges, probably, from 35,000-400,000 crewmen. Depending on the source. YMMV.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Abnett's figures can be reconciled with the Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook (light cruisers can be twice the length of a frigate) and with Dembski-Bowden's (for the reason you cited).

They also make sense from another perspective: a Ford-class supercarrier is 1/5 the length and a little less than 1/10 the beam of the Armaduke. Its crew complement is 1/8 that of the Armaduke, which makes sense proportionately speaking (especially since it makes for an Imperial vessel with properly cramped quarters for the menials). I don't think this is a coincidence.

The only issue I noted was that the Armaduke has SIXTY times the displacement of a Ford-class (6.2 megatonnes vs. approx. 102,000 tonnes), despite being only 6-ish times larger. I'll admit math is not my strong suit, though, and wonder (embarrassingly) if the Armaduke's significantly thicker hulls could play a role with that.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

IIRC, didn't Abnett also state in one his Inquisition Novels that a Regiment of 250,000 Individuals was raised?

In regards to the size comparisons, compare a Car to an MBT. They range from 70-80 Tonnes in regards to an SUV's 2-4 tonnes, the SUV in comparison is around 16 times lighter. at its heaviest, but only 4 times smaller. The mass comes from Armour, and weaponry, and then the engine to power the electronics AND move it at speeds across ground that a modern SUV would struggle to match.

Bear in mind that a Warp capable vessel often spends 3-4 days to exit a system, and that's probably not at a flank/battle speed; indeed the Eisenstein was able to make it out of system in a couple of hours (?) while damaged (?) but how far a "jump point" was from outside of System is undetermined. Compare that to Voyager which according to the Logistics discussion, although being ~18B (?) Miles away is still considered *In System*.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Vaz said:


> IIRC, didn't Abnett also state in one his Inquisition Novels that a Regiment of 250,000 Individuals was raised?


I believe it was supposed to be 500,000, but was secretly bumped up to 750,000. Mind, Abnett has mentioned in the past that BL wise this stuff was in the early days and should be taken with a bit of salt (since the book mentioning those numbers coming from a non hive world also featured a jetbike chase.)


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> with Dembski-Bowden's (for the reason you cited).


I don't think so. The Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus book lists the Avenger GC as having ~141,000 crewmen. Having 1/6th for a second-line warship is a bit iffy. It was, afterall, guarding a sector relatively close to the Eye of Terror.



Phoebus said:


> They also make sense from another perspective: a Ford-class supercarrier is 1/5 the length and a little less than 1/10 the beam of the Armaduke. Its crew complement is 1/8 that of the Armaduke, which makes sense proportionately speaking (especially since it makes for an Imperial vessel with properly cramped quarters for the menials). I don't think this is a coincidence.


Keep in mind that something that is 1/5th the length, 1/10th the beam, and 1/10th the draft is going to only have 1/500th the volume.



Phoebus said:


> despite being only 6-ish times larger. I'll admit math is not my strong suit, though, and wonder (embarrassingly) if the Armaduke's significantly thicker hulls could play a role with that.


The Armaduke is probably several hundred times "larger" (in terms of volume). Its density is actually many times less than that of the Ford-class.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

We can argue about the volumes of fictional warships and how they might be affected by extra armor, less quarters, etc., etc., all day. At the end of the day, those are the dimensions, and that is the crew complement (to include a small-end Regiment).

As for the Avenger Grand Cruiser's nominal crew complement? I don't know. I'm just trying to fill in blanks. Maybe ADB's figure works as a skeleton crew for a second-line ship. Maybe it doesn't. Battlefleet Coronus was released after "Soul Hunter". So was "Salvation's Reach". Is there a figure in the original Battlefleet: Gothic material that contradicts either ADB or Coronus? Personally, I'm inclined to accept the 141,000 figure, but I'm not prepared to dismiss the "skeleton crew" argument for ADB's figure out of hand. There are any number of out-of-story reasons for why a second-line might be undermanned - we could go on all day as to whether or not they're viable.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> We can argue about the volumes of fictional warships and how they might be affected by extra armor, less quarters, etc., etc., all day. At the end of the day, those are the dimensions, and that is the crew complement (to include a small-end Regiment).


I'm talking as if they were hollow boxes. I'm not factoring machinery, walls, deck height, ect into the equation. Those are the raw numbers.

If they were hollow rectangles with those dimensions, the Armaduke would take 500 times more water to fill. 

Take a one by one by one cube. How many "units" is it? 1 unit^3. Now double the cube's dimensions. It's now a two by two by two cube. How many units is it? 2 units^2? No. It would be 8 units^2.

Something five times as big as another (assuming it's the same shape) would have 125 times the volume.

As for the crew discrepancies...I'd chalk it up as the fluff moving in a different direction. There's no mention of the crew being undermanned. No mention of the loss of efficiency of having 1/6th the normal amount of crew.

It's just like how the Legions went from 10,000 Space Marines in the older fluff to 100,000+ in modern fluff.

I think the authors and community is wising up a bit more to the sheer scale of the WH40k universe. Honestly, I hope the SM numbers continue to increase. 3 million super soldiers would be spread awfully thin across most of the galaxy. When they'd be outnumbered by "normal" soldiers by 20,000+ to one, you'd think their achievements would mostly fall to the sidelines.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You're correct, there is no mention of the crew being skeleton strength. At the end of the day, though, it's a known fact that there are inconsistencies between different authors, different books, different editions, different media, etc. Many of the answers that we get regarding these inconsistencies end up being of the "maybe it's because of X" variety.

I'm not too worried about the numbers of the Legiones Astartes anymore, to be honest. At this point, I think they're about right. Look at it this way: the "Betrayal" book qualifies what we've known for a while - that a Chapter of Space Marines can do in a planet in a matter of days. That means that, fighting in the vanguard of the Imperial armies, the Legiones Astartes at their apex could be conquering a staggering number of planets at a time. Taking into consideration the length of the Great Crusade, I'd say the ratio of Astartes to conquered worlds is finally about right.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I was driving to university the other day when it the sheer scale of 40k ships suddenly hit me. I drive 8kms to Uni. A Battleship is around 8kms (depending on sources). I thought about the distance i drove and realized just how immense those ships are. 

It's different being able to actually conceptualize a concrete distance rather than leaving it an abstraction. 

I agree with Phoebus regarding the Legion sizes. 2 million Space Marines or so seem capable of conquering the million or so worlds of the Imprium in 200 years, taking into account that not all worlds need to be conquered and the existence of the Imperial Army. 

We know that 1000 Marines can take a planet in a matter of days. Lets make it a average of a week. That's a little over 5000 planets a year, over a million worlds in the course of the Great Crusade.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> We know that 1000 Marines can take a planet in a matter of days.


I've been sorta iffy on that, too. We know that in modern times even a company of marines is an unstoppable force and a thousand overall for anything short of a hivefleet, but you really think about it....even 1000 marines would find it hard going. Throw around enough heavy weapons to your troops and at 10000:1 odds you'll run out of marines before enemies. 

I know they don't stand out on a field and punch each soldier to death one at a time, but even using non-conventional tactics, I still think it requires a lot of suspension of belief to work.

And I don't think they'd be conquering 50 planets in a year. It takes a long time to find a planet with humans on it (which could take months), travel to it (which could take months...or years), and then fight on it (which we could your week if we want). Generally we some tidying up afterwards, which might take weeks or months. Just to make sure the natives aren't going to starve or rebel as soon as you turn your back.

Also we see forces where much more than a thousand marines are gathered (like the Space Wolves) in a single force.

I can't help but feel, like "modern" WH40k, that the Space Marines were less of the backbone of the crusade but more like a thumb. Handy to have and lets you do a lot of nifty things you couldn't normally do, but ultimately it's the other 99.9% of the body that does most of the work.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> I've been sorta iffy on that, too.
> ...
> I know they don't stand out on a field and punch each soldier to death one at a time, but even using non-conventional tactics, I still think it requires a lot of suspension of belief to work.


You're thinking about it in terms of conventional warfare. Granted, a number of Black Library authors are guilty of perpetuating this stereotype/theme.

If it helps, think of it in terms of the capabilities the Legiones Astartes had, and their overall strengths. Just as it does now, a Chapter of the Great Crusade possessed 2-4 battle barges, several strike cruisers, and even more escort vessels. That firepower alone is enough to reduce almost any planet to submission. Consider what plain old 20th and 21st century air superiority has been able to do to land armies. Localized air superiority in France following D-Day practically crippled the German armies there. Space superiority raises that concept to the Nth degree. When you destroy a planetary army's transportation and communication grids, you take away their ability to reinforce, supply, or coordinate one another. Your orbital and aerial firepower can literally annihilate any unit whose size requires that it occupy a significant area (such as an airfield, or a stretch of highway, or a series of buildings, etc.).

The fact that the Space Marines themselves are fearless, seemingly invulnerable, and capable of exploding a normal armored warrior with a single shot is just the icing on the cake. It's what allows the Legiones Astartes to not just destroy a whole world, but to kill every single general and his staff, or kill every single prominent politician, or capture a communications hub, or capture a power plant, etc., etc.

Bottom line, even if you consider 1,000-1 odds to be "even" where Space Marines are concerned, it was probably a rare event that normal warriors ever got to face the Legiones Astartes on "even" ground. Fulgrim's habit of purposefully going about things the hard way against the Laer aside, of course. :wink:



> And I don't think they'd be conquering 50 planets in a year.


Let's say that all one million worlds of the Imperium were conquered during the Great Crusade. Over 200 years of Great Crusading, that averages out to 5,000 worlds conquered per year. Conversely, there were as many as 1600-1700 Chapters running around at the apex of the Great Crusade. Each Chapter doesn't need to conquer 50 planets a year; they need to conquer 3-4 a year, on average.



> It takes a long time to find a planet with humans on it (which could take months), travel to it (which could take months...or years), ...


It depends. Astelan's Chapter certainly ran out of viable targets near the end of the Great Crusade. Far more references point to Chapters that conquered hundreds of worlds from the time they set off from Terra, though.



> ... and then fight on it (which we could your week if we want). Generally we some tidying up afterwards, which might take weeks or months.


That's not what the Legiones Astartes were tasked with, though. Peacekeeping and "tidying up" were the job of the Imperial Army.



> Also we see forces where much more than a thousand marines are gathered (like the Space Wolves) in a single force.


Undoubtedly. We're talking about averages, though. Author's license aside, the Great Crusade required a rather omndirectional approach (along the galactic plane, that is). By the time we get to reading "Horus Rising", the Great Crusade is coming to a close, the bulk of the realm of mankind has been recovered, and it's thus plausible for the Legions to be coming back together.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In regards to the plausibility of the success rate of the GC: well, conquering/forcing compliance on 1 (or was it 2?) million worlds in 200 years, at first glance, requires a huge suspension of disbelief. Especially considering the time required to pacify some worlds, time taken to explore and discover lost human colonies, warp travel, resupply etc. 

The Heresy series hasn't exactly helped this perception either. Several novels frequently refer to Expeditionary Fleets taking many months (or longer) transversing the warp or investigating potential human worlds without conquering a single world. The 28th Expeditionary Fleet, for example, took "an entire year" to reach Nikaea, and that was for a non-military council. How many other fleets wasted just as long, or longer, on such events? The series also refers to considerably long pacification-campaigns, such as the Cleansing of Laeran, which occupied entire Expedition Fleets for months or years at a time. The series is also guilty of not stressing that the nature of the GC required the Legions to be split up and spread out amongst different Fleets, something which also doesn't help the overall perception. 

However, on closer inspection: during the peak of the GC (around the time of the Ullanor Crusade) there were 4,287 active Expeditionary Fleets with a further 372 in "regroup and refit, or resupplying as they awaited new tasking orders". If we take that indicator as an average (although I imagine there would have been no way near that number of Fleets at the Crusade's inception) then each Expeditionary Fleet would have to conquer ~215 worlds over that 200 year period. Fleets of the Luna Wolves, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and other remarkable Legions/Army contingents I imagine cleared that average which allowed for the smaller/less able Fleets to fail to reach that average - which would have balanced it out. Of course that is talking strictly in averages, such numbers can hardly be strictly accurate considering the scale and resources of the Imperium vastly increased over time, and the general circumstances of different Legions/Fleets changed as well, such as the Word Bearers drastically changing from one of the Legions that conquered the slowest/least, to the Legion that conquered the most during the last few decades of the GC.

Roughly 1 world, per year, per Fleet, brings the GC into a more realistic perspective. Still an unprecedented and remarkable achievement, but something more approachable at least.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Heresy series hasn't exactly helped this perception either. Several novels frequently refer to Expeditionary Fleets taking many months (or longer) transversing the warp or investigating potential human worlds without conquering a single world. The 28th Expeditionary Fleet, for example, took "an entire year" to reach Nikaea, and that was for a non-military council. How many other fleets wasted just as long, or longer, on such events? The series also refers to considerably long pacification-campaigns, such as the Cleansing of Laeran, which occupied entire Expedition Fleets for months or years at a time. The series is also guilty of not stressing that the nature of the GC required the Legions to be split up and spread out amongst different Fleets, something which also doesn't help the overall perception.


CotE. You raise points that never occur to me. 

ADB should seriously hook you up with BL as an advisor or something. 

Paid or not, I'm sure you wouldn't care either way. But the quality of HH books would increase greatly I'd imagine.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In regards to the plausibility of the success rate of the GC: well, conquering/forcing compliance on 1 (or was it 2?) million worlds in 200 years, at first glance, requires a huge suspension of disbelief. Especially considering the time required to pacify some worlds, time taken to explore and discover lost human colonies, warp travel, resupply etc.


I don't think I've ever seen a "two million world" figure in conjunction with either the Imperium of Man or the Great Crusade. Where the suspension of disbelief is concerned, I can only speak for myself... but I had no problem with the concept once I abandoned the idea that the Legions operated as whole units.



> The Heresy series hasn't exactly helped this perception either. Several novels frequently refer to Expeditionary Fleets taking many months (or longer) transversing the warp or investigating potential human worlds without conquering a single world.


Yes, but it's worth remembering that the majority of the Heresy tales take place in year 200 of the Great Crusade. We have to take into account that, as the forces of Mankind reached the edges of the galaxy, the number of worlds being found was correspondingly smaller. In fact, Gav Thorpe (is it just me, or do I keep falling back to "Call of the Lion" lately?) makes this point via Astelan:



> “In the early years the forces of the Great Crusade had met with huge success, bringing the Imperial Truth to hundreds of worlds in the relatively densely populated systems around Terra. Here, in the yawning chasm between spiral arms, such colonies had always been sparse, and through the isolation of the Age of Strife it was possible that none at all had survived.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Nick Kyme, Lindsey Priestley, Dan Abnett, Matt Farrer, Mike Lee, Graham McNeill, James Swallow, Anthony Reynolds & Gav Thorpe. “Tales of Heresy.” Black Library, 2010-12.


Here's something else to consider: when Horus & Co. conquered the fake Imperium in 'Horus Rising', they hung around for a total of three months. But does that count against the average I'm proposing or for them? That system contained a total of nine planets, of which at least four were inhabited. If you go by my math, the 63rd covered their annual average requirement in a quarter of the time needed... at a time when the pickings were the slimmest. Add to that example the Interrex, the Diasporex, the Perdus Region, etc.



> The 28th Expeditionary Fleet, for example, took "an entire year" to reach Nikaea, and that was for a non-military council. How many other fleets wasted just as long, or longer, on such events?


I suspect Nikaea was the exception, not the rule. It wasn't just a non-military council; it was meant to determine the fate of all psykers in the Legions.



> The series is also guilty of not stressing that the nature of the GC required the Legions to be split up and spread out amongst different Fleets, something which also doesn't help the overall perception.


I agree one hundred percent with you on this count.



> Roughly 1 world, per year, per Fleet, brings the GC into a more realistic perspective. Still an unprecedented and remarkable achievement, but something more approachable at least.


Either way you cut it... one planet or four-five per year, it's feasible in my humble opinion.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> ust as it does now, a Chapter of the Great Crusade possessed 2-4 battle barges, several strike cruisers, and even more escort vessels.


I don't believe so. We see many more Astartes placed in a vessel. In the battle of Phall we see several thousand marines on a single vessel. In _Dark Creed_ there are several thousand Word Bearers on each ship. In _Know no Fear_ we know that Guilliman's flagship had at least 3000 marines (and likely more) on board.

Unless you miswrote and meant to say a modern Chapter has that? If so I'd mostly agree, though I can't remember seeing more than 3 BBs in a Codex Chapter.



Phoebus said:


> Let's say that all one million worlds of the Imperium were conquered during the Great Crusade. Over 200 years of Great Crusading, that averages out to 5,000 worlds conquered per year. Conversely, there were as many as 1600-1700 Chapters running around at the apex of the Great Crusade. Each Chapter doesn't need to conquer 50 planets a year; they need to conquer 3-4 a year, on average.


You're forgetting that there was only around 200,000 marines at the get-go, perhaps less. Legions like the TS and EC would have reduced this number.

Also you're assuming that the Space Marines would have broken into 1000-man fleets. We've seen much larger formations. I can't find it again, but I remember reading a short battle report of the World Eaters "reinforcing" an on-going battle during the GC. They suffered ~2500 causalities a day for a few days. Even after the battle was won, the number of Imperial causalities continued to rise. The writer of the report was somewhat confused.

Also you have to remember in the GC the Astartes had a lot less finesse than their modern counterparts. They crushed enemy armies directly. 



Phoebus said:


> That's not what the Legiones Astartes were tasked with, though. Peacekeeping and "tidying up" were the job of the Imperial Army.


They stuck around long enough to make sure things were done.

Sixty-three-nineteen. The Word Bearers and their churches. The IF and IW also built fortresses on their planets.

Wiping out entire populations must take a lot of time for the World Eaters, too. Not when you have to do it by hand, sometimes literally.



Malus Darkblade said:


> CotE. You raise points that never occur to me.


But...I said that in my post earlier .



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 215 worlds over that 200 year period. Fleets of the Luna Wolves, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and other remarkable Legions/Army contingents I imagine cleared that average which allowed for the smaller/less able Fleets to fail to reach that average


We never see any numbers of compliant worlds more than a couple dozen. Even when commanded by Horus himself.

Unless you think that fleets are disbanded and reformed, hence why the numbers are so small? But that doesn't work. You would end up with multiple 63-1s then. And that's the whole point of naming planets like that, so you can easily keep track of who did what and where.

Maybe Horus jumped around fleets?



Phoebus said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a "two million world" figure in conjunction with either the Imperium of Man or the Great Crusade.


I think it's in the WH40k rulebook. 



Phoebus said:


> That system contained a total of nine planets, of which at least four were inhabited


Were they on more than 1 planet? I haven't read _Horus Rising_ in years. 



Phoebus said:


> Add to that example the Interrex, the Diasporex, the Perdus Region, etc.


The Interex were destroyed. I would assume the Diasporex were also wiped out to a man as well (too much Xenos influence).



Phoebus said:


> Either way you cut it... one planet or four-five per year, it's feasible in my humble opinion.


As I said before, we've never seen a fleet with more than a couple of dozen of planets under its belt. I don't think 4-5 a year would be average.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't believe so. We see many more Astartes placed in a vessel. In the battle of Phall we see several thousand marines on a single vessel. In _Dark Creed_ there are several thousand Word Bearers on each ship. In _Know no Fear_ we know that Guilliman's flagship had at least 3000 marines (and likely more) on board.
> 
> Unless you miswrote and meant to say a modern Chapter has that? If so I'd mostly agree, though I can't remember seeing more than 3 BBs in a Codex Chapter.


No mistake. Different authors have gone with different figures, though, and thus different vessels will carry different numbers of Space Marines, just as different Legions will have different organization structures. So, for instance, Aaron Dembski-Bowden's 'Covenant of Blood' holds "almost three hundred" Space Marines instead of the typical one hundred... while the Chapter of the Serrated Sun only has three hundred Word Bearers at full force and has its own Battle Barge - and its own Expedition Fleet. From a different author, Legion, and perspective, Astelan and Belath's two Chapters combined for seven Battle Barges, with the former's flagship carrying three Companies aboard. Keep in mind that the figures Gav Thorpe uses for the Dark Angels would imply that he had shifted to "big Legions" (much like Dembski-Bowden) versus the sizes from the earlier novels.

Where your examples are concerned, though... Guilliman's flagship is a super-ship; and the Iron Warriors do carry "entire Battalions" in their ships, but they are qualified as "macro-ships" (implying a larger size). I need to re-look at the 'Dark [Noun]' series again! 



> You're forgetting that there was only around 200,000 marines at the get-go, perhaps less. Legions like the TS and EC would have reduced this number.


I'm not, though. I'm remembering that, at the beginning of the Great Crusade, the Expedition fleets were finding worlds far more frequently than near the end. I'm also remembering that, even before the Primarchs were found, the Legiones Astartes were a force growing out of its own ranks. Their superiority was such that the "reinforcements" grown from their own progenoids probably outstripped their battlefield losses.



> Also you're assuming that the Space Marines would have broken into 1000-man fleets. We've seen much larger formations.


Yes, we have - in the earlier Horus Heresy novels, which assumed Legions were only 20-30,000 strong. Once the authors shifted to 100,000-strong Legions, the divisions became far more acute. Now we had each of the Fellowships of the Thousand Sons seconding itself to other Legions. Great Companies of the Space Wolves had their own Expedition Fleets. Chapters of the Word Bearers did as well - even if very small compared to the standard. It only made sense.



> Also you have to remember in the GC the Astartes had a lot less finesse than their modern counterparts. They crushed enemy armies directly.


To a degree. The more refined Great Crusade fluff, though, to include the seminal 'Betrayal' points to equivalent task forces. The main difference was two-fold: first, a Legion's unity of command allowed for it to mass multiple Chapters against stellar empires; second, a Chapter in the Great Crusade typically massed its entire force (to include its fleet, and auxilliary Imperial Army assets) in each campaign... as opposed to modern Chapters, which typically divide even further.



> They stuck around long enough to make sure things were done.


It's not as simple as that, though. The Word Bearers were going against Imperial doctrine. The Iron Warriors were leaving behind skeleton crews or undersized forces on a permanent basis. The Imperial Fists were probably doing something similar with their own fortress-building - that was certainly the case with Felix Cassander and his Company in 'Angel Exterminatus'.

Against that, again, you have the stated fact that the Legiones Astartes were the shock troops, and that the Imperial Army did the "mop-up".



> We never see any numbers of compliant worlds more than a couple dozen. Even when commanded by Horus himself.


Are you sure about that? What about Namatjira, a human commander from 'Legion', who has taken part in over one hundred and twenty compliances? What about Sejanus, who is said to have completed "a hundred" compliances with Horus? Those are just two references, off the top of my head. :wink:



> Unless you think that fleets are disbanded and reformed, hence why the numbers are so small? But that doesn't work. You would end up with multiple 63-1s then. And that's the whole point of naming planets like that, so you can easily keep track of who did what and where.


Sure it could work - ad-hoc numbering systems are used all the time. The planetary designation would only need to be relevant until it became an established part of the Imperium. This is reinforced in several stories and novels that cite proper planets by name - not numerical designation.



> I think it's in the WH40k rulebook.


If you find it, that'd be great! Every single Heresy book works with "one million" or "one thousand times a thousand", etc. 



> Were they on more than 1 planet? I haven't read _Horus Rising_ in years.


Yes. Sixty-three Nineteen is just the seat of the false Emperor. Later on, "three other planets" in the same system revolt.



> The Interex were destroyed. I would assume the Diasporex were also wiped out to a man as well (too much Xenos influence).


Compliance can come through destruction, though. The point is that the Legiones Astartes were still finding not just single planets, but systems with multiple inhabited worlds and even proper stellar empires. 



> As I said before, we've never seen a fleet with more than a couple of dozen of planets under its belt. I don't think 4-5 a year would be average.


That's just an assumption based on a numbering system, though. Again, we have multiple examples to cite for far larger numbers of conquests.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Paid or not, I'm sure you wouldn't care either way. But the quality of HH books would increase greatly I'd imagine.


Whilst I am sure the latter is true, you have too high an opinion of me to think the former. :wink:



Phoebus said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a "two million world" figure in conjunction with either the Imperium of Man or the Great Crusade. Where the suspension of disbelief is concerned, I can only speak for myself... but I had no problem with the concept once I abandoned the idea that the Legions operated as whole units.


I've definitely seen the two million figure being chucked around, I can't think from where off the top of my head though. 



Phoebus said:


> Yes, but it's worth remembering that the majority of the Heresy tales take place in year 200 of the Great Crusade. We have to take into account that, as the forces of Mankind reached the edges of the galaxy, the number of worlds being found was correspondingly smaller.


Yeah, I appreciate that. But I was primarily talking about the false perception that the Heresy series was giving us. That is, it often portrays the Legions as single units, acting in single fleets, especially throughout the early series when the Legion-size wasn't classified and was generally marked at 10k.

AD-B has addressed this, he has said as much on these forums that he has tried to portray the Legions in his novels as being split up and scattered throughout the Imperium. _The First Heretic_ having the Word Bearers mustered as a single Legion on Monarchia and then being scattered during the Pilgrimage. Similarly during _Betrayer_ the World Eaters and Word Bearers were laying siege to dozens of worlds at a time.



Phoebus said:


> Either way you cut it... one planet or four-five per year, it's feasible in my humble opinion.


Yep, I agree. There are a lot of variables, as _hailene_ has has pointed out, but I think overall it's feasible. 



hailene said:


> But...I said that in my post earlier .


Surely you've realised how it works by now? I get credit for too much around here. :victory:



hailene said:


> We never see any numbers of compliant worlds more than a couple dozen. Even when commanded by Horus himself.
> 
> Unless you think that fleets are disbanded and reformed, hence why the numbers are so small? But that doesn't work. You would end up with multiple 63-1s then. And that's the whole point of naming planets like that, so you can easily keep track of who did what and where.
> 
> Maybe Horus jumped around fleets?


Off the top of my head, Sixty-Three Nineteen was the last world brought into compliance by the 63rd Fleet before the Horus Heresy. But Horus obviously hadn't only conquered 19 worlds by the end of the GC, so it stands to reason that he had personally commanded numerous different Fleets at different times. Especially considering it is frequently mentioned that he had conquered "thousands" of worlds during the GC.

The 28th Fleet might give us a further insight. It is unknown whether this was intentional or not (if it wasn't it is unforgivable given both books were written by Mcneill), but the 28th Fleet has been documented as (presumably) seperate fleets, one commanded by Fulgrim, the other by Magnus the Red, at roughly the same time. Whether they were two separate incarnations of the same fleet designation is not known, but Fulgrim's 28th Fleet had only recently been formed during the events of _Fulgrim_ considering the Cleansing of Laeran was the designated Twenty-Eight Three. But both fleets, Magnus's and Fulgrim's, seemed to have been in existence simultaneously. 

Personally, I think each fleet must go through different incarnations. Using the 28th Fleet again as an example, presumably it would have been the 28th fleet commissioned in the GC, but by the end of the GC it was only coming into it's third compliance mission (Laeran). What was the 28th Fleet doing before it was commanded by Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children? The same applies to the 63rd Fleet and others. A different measurement system such as: 


> I:1 Twenty-Eight One


 would make more sense, which could have been the first conquest made by the 28th Fleet after it was first commissioned at the dawn of the GC: in it's first incarnation. By the time Fulgrim is in command, Laeran could have been designated, for example:


> I:24 Twenty-Eight Three


 which could refer to the 24th incarnation of the 28th Fleet's third conquest. [The 24th incarnation just being a random guess]

Because, why would the 28th Fleet only have been commissioned when Fulgrim took command of his own fleet after separating from the Luna Wolves, when the 2,188th Fleet (a Word Bearers fleet mentioned in _The First Heretic_) had been around decades before? Why would the Imperium commission the 2,188th before the 28th? Why would they do that against the simple rule of numerical chronology? This is what makes me think different incarnations of the fleets, with a reset of their compliance counter, might have been commonplace.

Looks like it's just yet another element that the Heresy authors failed to categorise and establish prior to the series starting.

EDIT: I've just found another example: Lord Commander Teng Namatjira (of _Legion_) had personally directed 103 successful compliance campaigns, but only 24 with the 670th Fleet. Which probably shows, at the very least, that commanders/Legions/Primarchs switched between fleets.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think it's less complicated than that, honestly.

The numerical designation of an Expedition fleet is probably suspended when it is attrited in combat and subsequently absorbed by another fleet to make for a viable force. Like Regiments (historical and 40k), though, these fleets would accumulate their own pedigree, history, and fame during their service. It stands to reason that, rather than just designate a new fleet as "Number 4288", a retired designation would be "unretired" instead, along with its colours.

Of course, in a war of galactic scales, occassional bureaucratic errors occur... and two 28th fleets were unretired. :wink:

And, as mentioned earlier, you probably don't have to worry about conflicting "Compliance Names" for worlds falling to the Imperium. It would seem that, once properly integrated, a planet is tracked by its proper name. See Diamat, Iesta Veracrux, Monarchia, the agricultural colony of Virger-Mos II, Bastion, Isstvan, Dwell, Lesser Damantyne, and any other number of other planets so cited in the more than twenty-five novels and collections of the Horus Heresy.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

It's been a crazy week for me. 

I'll get to respondin' sometime tomorrow. Cheers.


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