# Horus Heresy Fatigue?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey guys.

I'm just wondering if anyone else is experiencing Horus Heresy fatigue?

Now, maybe its just that I'm a miserable old sod ... but I'm starting to get a 'meh' attitude to the Horus Heresy book series.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have loved some of the books so far, and all but two or three have been worthy reading.

But is it just me, or is it starting to get strung out a little too much?

I used to want every Legion to get their own novel, explaining their traitorous nature or highlighting their loyalties, but its really starting to drag for me.

I think the reason is in part because of how slow they are to get released. Now, I'm not blaming anyone, as writing a book is incredibly difficult, and I'm not suggesting they start publishing half assed work; what I mean is, when you get a book that is disappointing or even cr*p, its about a six to eight month gap before you get another chance to get back into the series.

So is anyone else starting to think like me and wonder if it will be another 5 (or more) years before this series is complete, and if you'll be around to care by them?

What do you guys think? Are you suffering from Horus Heresy fatigue?


EDIT

Also, I forgot to mention the fact that Astartes are starting to get over familiar and overplayed, I'm more curious about the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Orks etc.


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## brianizbrewtal (Jan 26, 2011)

It's not the Khaine Heresy for a reason! Butttt I agree that it does take a while for books to come out, though I'd rather wait and get something awesome. No fatigue here just lots of waiting. If you feel your attention span is nearly spent on the Heresy, why not start a new omnibus or more specifically Gaunts' sweet ole ghosts.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I like the Heresy series, but I would like to see a more structured format.

For instance, I'd like it if, once a year, we got a (for example) "gold border" book that advances the main storyline in order, like "Horus Rising", "False Gods", "Galaxy in Flames", etc. Then you'd have one or two "silver border" books (depending on how fast they want to end the series), each of which would reveal the past of one of the First Founding Legions and (by the end) tie it in to pertinent events of the Heresy... kind of like "Fulgrim", but more like "A Thousand Sons" or "Prospero Burns". And finally, you could have 1-2 "bronze border" books that deal with side-stories relevant to the Heresy ("Nemesis", "Mechanicus", etc.).

Maybe that would work, or maybe it wouldn't. I guess the only thing that concerns me or bothers me in any meaningful way is the idea that the BL crowd might not have the clearest direction or plan for how they want the series to go.

Cheers,
P.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

I dont think I've ever got Heresy fatigue, but I do understand where you are coming form. I have experienced fatigue with genres. I remember earlier this year I read a whole load of Black Library books back to back with some of the Wheel of Time series, and I was so burnt out on fantasy/sci-fi fiction I spent the next few months reading history and biographies. I think its only natural to get tired with a genre/setting after a while of non-stop immersion, breaking the flow is very important, so when you return you will have a newfound appreciation and love (or at least remember what you loved in the firt place). 

With regards to Heresy novels, I think this year has been quite slow with only two novels being released (Age of Darkness and The Outcast Dead), and two limited novellas. Next year will be a big year, not just in terms of releases (5 books I think, and more audio dramas) but also the topics that will be covered. We have:

Deliverence Lost: Raven Guard after Isstvaan, hopefully answering many questions but given the presence of the Alpha Legion potentially presenting many more.

Know No Fear: Battle of Calth.....Dan Abnett.....enough said really

The Primarchs: Novellas about Kurze, The Lion, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius/Omegon

Fear to Tread: Sanguinius and Blood Angels at Signus Prime.....yeah this will be awesome

Untitle ADB World Eater/Word Bearer novel....this is meant to be a tie in Know No Fear and follows on from Aurelian and The Butchers Nail, or so I believe.

I personally love the Heresy novels and cant get enough of them, I would rather they were spaced out and the authors had time to write good material. After all, the authors need to write stuff for other settings as well, or they'll end up bored and uninspired with the Heresy as well. 

Lets face it the recent spate of books have been really good, I am currently reading the Outcast Dead, and for those of you looking for something aside from Astartes focus, this delivers in satisfying quantities. Graham Mcneill has definitely pulled another one here...but more of that in my review. 

I personally see the Heresy series as entering its second phase. We are still adding many more characters to the setting and still have a lot of expected stuff to cover, let alone the surprises the authors have in store for us. The only thing I would like to see is more authors being given the opportunity to contribute. I love Dan Abnett, Graham Mcneill, ADB, Jim Swallow, but I would like to see Chris Wraight and Rob Sanders get a shot at a full length book.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I just wish there was more of them, the fact you wait so long and then the next book maybe a really boring one (from my perspective), really puts emphasis on how long it's taking to get them out.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

As other people have said, this has been a very slow year for Heresy-lovers. And next year is packed.

To answer the question though, I haven't had Heresy fatigue at all, considering that I am just coming off reading _The Outcast Dead_, which was fan-frikkin-tastic. Rather, I just want more and more stuff to come out  Preferably something every 2-3 months on a constant cycle. But that's not really feasible.

Given the nature of the Primarchs anthology, I would imagine that there will be at least two more anthologies which are similar. One will be a collection of the LE novellas and the other will be about the Primarchs who have not been covered thus far.

And I would really like Ben Counter to return to the Heresy team. Phalanx has been just totally amazing and I really want more from him. Not to mention the fact that I think _Galaxy in Flames_ is one of the best HH novels.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I just wish there was more of them, the fact you wait so long and then the next book maybe a really boring one (from my perspective), really puts emphasis on how long it's taking to get them out.


 
Really boring one? I dont think there have been any boring ones, at least in my opinion. Each book brings something different, you cant have constant action and huge events in each book, there is more to the Heresy than that. The slower paced books, apart from exploring different yet equally important events, further exacerbate the ferocity in the action packed sequences. Of course, this is all down to opinion. My personal favourite is Legion, and I loved Mechanicum and Prospero Burns.

Its a double edged blade though, if you have too much action action people complain of bolter porn, if there is too little (Prospero Burns, Legion) then people complain about it being boring, there is no winning formula. 

On a side note, I would love to see a political piece set on Terra, where we see the rising administratum and major factions of the burgeoning Imperium using the chaos of the Heresy to extend their own power. It would have to be carefully handled, but I think it could work very well.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

NIKT208 said:


> Really boring one? I dont think there have been any boring ones, at least in my opinion. Each book brings something different, you cant have constant action and huge events in each book, there is more to the Heresy than that. The slower paced books, apart from exploring different yet equally important events, further exacerbate the ferocity in the action packed sequences. Of course, this is all down to opinion. My personal favourite is Legion, and I loved Mechanicum and Prospero Burns.
> 
> Its a double edged blade though, if you have too much action action people complain of bolter porn, if there is too little (Prospero Burns, Legion) then people complain about it being boring, there is no winning formula.
> 
> On a side note, I would love to see a political piece set on Terra, where we see the rising administratum and major factions of the burgeoning Imperium using the chaos of the Heresy to extend their own power. It would have to be carefully handled, but I think it could work very well.


By boring I meant the ones I liked the least, such as Battle for the Abyss and Nemesis.


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## VitalDread (Jan 13, 2011)

So far in the HH series, I've never felt any fatigue.
With every book i have been reading it just makes me want to read more, the build up of the characters are done quite well and the icing on the cake was the return of a character in the series. 

The return of Garviel Loken in the latest Audio Book 


I can't wait till it gets closer to the crunch time and you see the full aspect of the HH battles and the after effects it has on all the legions and primarchs.

I'm seriously hoping they bring in the two secret primarchs, though it will never happen it will bring a major twist in the HH series.... one can dream


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

For spoilers just type spoiler in [] tags around the text. In the ending tag make sure to put a / before the word spoiler.

Ex.

(ANGRY)(/ANGRY)


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

A fact that I noticed a few days ago when I started reading "The Gildar Rift" (awesome book btw) was that it was a very nice break from all this "Horus Lupercal that, Horus Lupercal this" stuff I have been reading for the past six months.


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## VitalDread (Jan 13, 2011)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> For spoilers just type spoiler in [] tags around the text. In the ending tag make sure to put a / before the word spoiler.
> 
> Ex.
> 
> (ANGRY)(/ANGRY)


Thanks


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## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

I just started the Horus Heresy this year and am up to Prospero Burns now. I started to get a little warn out so I read some current time stuff and that helped a lot. Reading through the Night Lords books was a hell of a break =)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I've hated the Horus Heresy books. There are things when knowing about it ruins it for you, or doesn't tell you what you want to know. 

Basically, the Horus Heresy is a poor series, with poor writers and continuation between the different writers, and often with contradictions and plot holes that although could be happily ignored as intentional to keep you guessing are simply left in rather than being adequately accounted for; the sign of a poor writer, who is riding on the hype of a series and volume of content.

When I look at Salvatore, Gemmell , or Canavan, there are no plot holes by the end of the series that I can think of.

Examples of such writers that I hate; Nick Kyme - Salamanders, and the Dwarves. Graham McNeil (after Ultramarines, they've gone to pot).

And unfortunately, the book relies too much on Deus Ex Machina to explain away the great feats. "And he was filled with the Emperor's Fury and furiously smote him until he was smote to death" is what I can imagine goes through the head of the writers when I read some of the stories trying to find a way to explain how previously defeated soldiers were capable of great victories.

Although not an example in the Heresy, the best example of comparison is;

Compare Tyrion's fight against Urian Poisonblade's description in the army book - Dark Elves say he slipped, High Elves say he feigned a fall, and as Urian raised his blade to decapitate Tyrion, leaving himself open to attack, who then saw an opening and stabbed him.

Meanwhile, as he's fighting, Malekith tries to aid his champion, and teclis attempts to dispel "sweat plasters his brow". Only following which he then called upon the powers of his staff and the goddess of the moon to destroy Malekith, who could only survive by jumping into the Chaos Wastes, followed by Teclis effortlessly summoning storm which annihilates the forces of Ulthuan, which cheapens the entire battle against Poisonblade and the desperation of the Asur.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Vaz said:


> I've hated the Horus Heresy books. There are things when knowing about it ruins it for you, or doesn't tell you what you want to know.


So you either want them to tell you everything or nothing at all? What a dull, uninteresting stance to take.



Vaz said:


> Basically, the Horus Heresy is a poor series, with poor writers and continuation between the different writers, and often with contradictions and plot holes that although could be happily ignored as intentional to keep you guessing are simply left in rather than being adequately accounted for; the sign of a poor writer, who is riding on the hype of a series and volume of content.


So the millions of people who are buying these books are falling for this as well? The NYTB status for some of these authors is irrelevant? The critical acclaim for these novels is irrelevant?

A common fallacy of people is that they want everything to be straightforward, they don't want any sort of mystery. How is that any fun? Some things are best left for the readers' own imagination and nearly all the books have achieved that.

There are also very few and far contradictions/continuity between writers. In case you are not aware, the writers meet regularly for meetings where they discuss each other's novels and what is going to happen in future novels. There is a lot of cross-pollination of ideas.



Vaz said:


> When I look at Salvatore, Gemmell , or Canavan, there are no plot holes by the end of the series that I can think of.
> 
> Examples of such writers that I hate; Nick Kyme - Salamanders, and the Dwarves. Graham McNeil (after Ultramarines, they've gone to pot).
> 
> And unfortunately, the book relies too much on Deus Ex Machina to explain away the great feats. "And he was filled with the Emperor's Fury and furiously smote him until he was smote to death" is what I can imagine goes through the head of the writers when I read some of the stories trying to find a way to explain how previously defeated soldiers were capable of great victories..


The Salamander novels do have their downpoints but the positives more than make up for the negatives. But given your obvious bias here, I am not sure how to defend them.

And it definitely doesn't seem like you have read any of the novels with any sort of attention to details. You seem to want everything straight up. Frankly that just doesn't work. The type of Deus Ex Machina you are talking about just does not exist in the novels. Otherwise Ferrus Manus would still be alive. Solomon Demeter would still be alive. Tarik Torgaddon would still be alive. The Raven Guard would not have been mauled at Istvaan and so on.



Vaz said:


> Although not an example in the Heresy, the best example of comparison is;
> 
> Compare Tyrion's fight against Urian Poisonblade's description in the army book - Dark Elves say he slipped, High Elves say he feigned a fall, and as Urian raised his blade to decapitate Tyrion, leaving himself open to attack, who then saw an opening and stabbed him.
> 
> Meanwhile, as he's fighting, Malekith tries to aid his champion, and teclis attempts to dispel "sweat plasters his brow". Only following which he then called upon the powers of his staff and the goddess of the moon to destroy Malekith, who could only survive by jumping into the Chaos Wastes, followed by Teclis effortlessly summoning storm which annihilates the forces of Ulthuan, which cheapens the entire battle against Poisonblade and the desperation of the Asur.


Yeah good luck with trying to compare an armybook for WHF with the Horus Heresy novels. /facepalm


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Love the series and hope it continues for many many years. I very much like Phoebus's suggestion. There have been a couple of books I haven't thought were up to much but those were earlier in the series. All the recent books have been of a very high standard (I didn't like Prospero Burns but can still appreciate it was well written).

I do get slightly annoyed with people demanding/moaning that the series hurry's up and finishes, as that is what they want. Do you not feel this is somewhat selfish? What about those of us who want to continue to read the books for many years? I really don't understand it to be honest, its not difficult, if people are board or 'fatigued' of the books, NO ONE is forcing you to read them. BL produces an enormous amount of literature and there are literally millions of other books you can read. 



Vaz said:


> I've hated the Horus Heresy books. There are things when knowing about it ruins it for you, or doesn't tell you what you want to know.
> 
> Basically, the Horus Heresy is a poor series, with poor writers and continuation between the different writers, and often with contradictions and plot holes that although could be happily ignored as intentional to keep you guessing are simply left in rather than being adequately accounted for; the sign of a poor writer, who is riding on the hype of a series and volume of content.


Vaz if I read a series of books that I've "hated" then I would stop reading them. Might help your situation re the HH series. If you think all the authors are 'poor' then maybe a different genre entirely may be best.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

mal310 said:


> I do get slightly annoyed with people demanding/moaning that the series hurry's up and finishes, as that is what they want. Do you not feel this is somewhat selfish? What about those of us who want to continue to read the books for many years? I really don't understand it to be honest, its not difficult, if people are board or 'fatigued' of the books, NO ONE is forcing you to read them. BL produces an enormous amount of literature and there are literally millions of other books you can read. quote]
> 
> Totally agree. I love the Heresy series, and have only been dissapointed with a few of the novels. I have never understood why people want this to end, or reach Terra. We know what happens then, we know how it ends, and whilst it will be cool to read about the huge battles, and decisive events it will mark the end of a great series with so much potential (assuming they dont do a scouring series as well). We are only getting past Isstvaan now, and are in the first year of the 'Age of Darkness', this is the part I have been waiting for. What happens in the seven years between Isstvaan and Terra? There are alot of questions to be answered, and if the hints dropped in savage weapons and other stories are anything to go by there will be many twists and turns. We have a long long way to go before we even see Terra on the horizon.
> 
> That aside, Black Library will keep the Heresy series going for some time. Its their flagship series now, a major money spinner, and is bringing huge acclaim and attention to Black Library and its authors. This is their ticket into the big league, and they know it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Personally, I don't really care for the Iron Hands as a Legion or as a Chapter, but I really hope they come up with something better for them than "they went to Medusa to lick their wounds."

OK, your Primarch and Veterans died. That sucked. I get it. But you still should have, what, tens of thousands of Astartes (probably more than 80,000) left? And dozens of warships? And millions of soldiers from attached Imperial Army units? They have to get back into the fight. Otherwise, who gives a crap what the Lion was doing all this time? What were _these guys _doing? :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

While I have enjoyed most of the HH novels to date, I do think they are dragging their heals when it comes to bringing the series to a climax. There are a few set pieces left that I would like to see novels about, like the battle of Calth, the war in the webway, the Khan's dilema of having to leave his buddy Russ to battle the AL on his own, what the Lion was really getting up to, and of course the battle of Terra will probably take up two if not three novels. 

I'm really looking forward to _Know No Fear _and _Fear to Thread_ because they feature two of these pivotal set pieces, but books like _Nemesis, Battle for the Abyss_ and possibly _The Outcast Dead_ don't really seem to move the story on at all. 

While I will read all the HH novels that are released, I do think they could finish it off in another 8 to 10 books. Unfortunately I think it will probably be twice that. Which is a shame, because if they did finish the HH series, they could move on to things like the Scouring, the Badab war or the Age of Apostasy.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> While I will read all the HH novels that are released, I do think they could finish it off in another 8 to 10 books. Unfortunately I think it will probably be twice that. Which is a shame, because if they did finish the HH series, they could move on to things like the Scouring, the Badab war or the Age of Apostasy.


Why rush it?


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I think BL should do the Siege of Terra in three books, the same as they started the series with 3 books. It would be completing the circle. I also hope they include a book showing the Lion and Russ coming to break the blockade... we need to know that the Imperium triumphed at the end!! 

And I know that it takes a long time to write a novel (sh*t it took me the best part of two years to write my first and I haven't got any quicker...) but surely BL can plan ahead and start the writers off so we don't just get two books a year in future. How many authors are working on this project? We could easily have 4 or 5 novels a year! And BL wouldn't losing anything because we would be buying the damn things 

I just wanna say to the authors too: great work, I've just re-read most of the books in the series and I don't have fatigue yet, in fact, I'm seeing new things the second time round. Now stop reading this and get back to work sating my hunger for HH stories!! 

Rev


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Well, if these self-same authors were working only on the HH novels then we'd get 4-5 HH novels a year. But that is not the case is it?

Dan Abnett has IG to write as well. Graham is working on Priests of Mars. Aaron is working on his GK novel and a Night Haunter novella and a World Eaters HH project. Jim Swallow is also writing (or will be I suppose) at least 2 more Garro audio-dramas and has plans for a Blood Angels SMB novel. Gav is also probably going to be working on another Eldar novel and is working on a Cassius novella. Rob Sanders has his Architect of Fate novella. Chris Wraight has to write Wrath of Iron. John French has another Garro-related audio drama, plus a Crimson Fist novella plus an Architect of Fate novella. 

All this plus more for next year. Not to mention that this is only the 40k stuff for some of these authors.

In short, their schedules are very, very packed. Especially since audio dramas and novellas are getting so much time in the sun.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*EDIT:* Beaten to the punch by shadowhawk... well played, sir.

The thing is, though, they write other things as well.

Dan Abnett, Ben Counter, Graham McNeill, and James Swallow have written the majority of the novels. Aaron Dembski-Bowden has been brought in, and three other authors have also written one each.

During the same time, though, Abnett wrote three "Gaunt's Ghosts" stories, other 40k books, a couple Warhammer Fantasy novels, and other material as well. Ben Counter also wrote a couple of "Soul Drinkers" novels and other 40k books during that period. McNeill wrote three "Ultramarines" books during the Heresy span. Swallow also wrote two "Blood Angels" books. Bowden himself's been juggling Night Lords, Grey Knights, and other projects while trying to do his Heresy work.

Yeah, it could go faster... but at the expense of everything else. :wink:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Why rush it?


It's not rushing it, it would be getting it done in a timely fashion, covering all the salient events without cluttering it up with shit like Nemesis and BftA. There is another 10,000 years of story arcs to flesh out, so lets get to it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I like novels like "Nemesis". I just don't necessarily think they should drive the schedule/frequency of the titles detailing the main storyline.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I liked Nemesis alot aswell, breath of fresh air after so many novels of battles. Even though its not near top of series, still good novel. I just hate books like BftA and Fallen Angels, also half of short stories are just bad. 

Books about important events are needed and not much more, UNLESS book is good to read. Nothing more worthless than reading some of above book about yet another battle somewhere without any good storytelling. Nemesis was book that was needed somewhere along this series, it showed real imperium during this crisis and its citizens and it covered Assassins which i think could have been done better. But plot was about story of Assassionation of Horus. Somewhat like "Dirty Dozen" mission.

I recently managed finally read last stories of Age of Darkness and i can say that maybe half stories of this book was good. Best stories came from newcomers to HH series.

Points is bring out more HH books if they have good dialogue and story.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

I agree that there are unnecessary books in the series, but that is only to be expected given the size and scope of the Heresy project, the fact they happened relatively early on in the series goes to show that they are taking a much more structured and well thought out route now. After reading Battle of the Abyss I honestly thought it was a filler title because the major stories/authors were delayed, or tied up with other projects. The Dark Angels books are of course part of a individual trilogy a la the first three about Horus, although I do get the feeling that BL are trying to distance themselves from those books, as those authors haven't returned to the fold, and ADB has picked up the legion. 

I personally loved Nemesis, and enjoyed the break from Astartes action. I liked reading about the assassin clades, and the conflicts between the high ranks of the Imperium. More than that though, I feel Nemesis really sums up the approach to the Heresy as a whole. We know how it ends, what is interesting is how we get there, and the twists and turns along the way. We always knew the assassins were going to fail, but the actions/counter actions that led up to the climax of failed mission were very interesting. The shift to a more micro setting was also refreshing, allowing us to see the galactic civil war from a different perspective. Remember the Heresy is more that just a series of key events, its a cataclysmic schism which provides the backdrop for an incredibly rich setting. One that I would like to see further explored (as it has in The Outcast Dead).

As for finishing the series and getting on with the other arcs? Whats the rush!!!!! They will get to them in time. Unless you dont have long left in this mortal coil there isn't really a strong argument for wanting to get to the end ultra quickly. Either way it is irrelevant, as I mentioned before this series is rapidly growing in popularity, the quality of the author's writing has jumped significantly, and it is bringing huge acclaim and attention to Black Library. Both the authors and editors/directors know this. This series will have another twenty books or so at least.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Vaz if I read a series of books that I've "hated" then I would stop reading them. Might help your situation re the HH series. If you think all the authors are 'poor' then maybe a different genre entirely may be best.


I have.

@Shadowhawk2008 -

1 - Yes. Precisely, otherwise you're left with wide empty gaps that need finishing. Might be a dull uninteresting stance, but currently, you've got a story which provides minor details of very little consequence to the end result of the story.

I look at the Imperial Armour Books, with the Vraks and Badab books, and I see exactly what happened. I saw the troop movements, the battle tactics involved, with just enough mystery, at parts such as the Betrayal at Grief which keeps you guessing, leaving Chapter Master Sartaq and High Commander Ortys dead, but at who's hand, you don't know. I can guarantee that in a Badab story book, you will have that story "spoilt" by too much information, yet leaving it out will leave the character development stunted, as there can be no hint to who actually killed them.



> So the millions of people who are buying these books are falling for this as well? The NYTB status for some of these authors is irrelevant? The critical acclaim for these novels is irrelevant?


Yes. Popular =/= Good. Read the "Life of Pi"? It's utter crap. But it's critically acclaimed. Read Lord of the Rings? I'm guessing most people have. It was deemed too long upon it's initial release by critics, and it's now one of the greatest pieces of english literature.

Read Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I doubt it. It's completely ignored in the western literature world, due to the often shaky translation between the Chinese Language and English Language. Yet it's a masterpiece of literature.

Critics trying to get themselves published try to be edgy, often going against the grain, yet when they actually get their weekly review slot, will have a fairly unanimous decision based on how they feel the general republic will react, not their true thoughts.

Hell, how many times will you see a movie advertised with "4*, Daily Mirror", yet when you go, it's fucking atrocious? This is what I get, and no matter how many lemmings go to see Transformers/read the Heresy novels and effuse how great it is to me, my own experiences of watching and reading both of those proves the exact opposite.



> A common fallacy of people is that they want everything to be straightforward, they don't want any sort of mystery. How is that any fun? Some things are best left for the readers' own imagination and nearly all the books have achieved that.


I love mystery. It's just a shame that I can usually spot the murderer or plot line before they are revealed. I was watching CSI:NY last night, one I hadn't watched before. Now, I'm blessed with a slight knowledge of anatomy etc, which does help, but this one was about the woman dancing in a martini glass, who was apparently electrocuted by a loose wire. When it came to the Post Mortem, the lass was determined to have drowned because of an edema, and was electrocuted shortly after or during the drowning process.

It showed the collection of data methods, in which a small slit in an inflatable beach ball was being swabbed. Electrocution, slit in beach ball, electrical burns covering the body, despite only having ankles submerged prior to the loose wire... Says to me like something microbiological was put in the ball - and low and behold, miniature jellyfish. Plot solved 15 minutes in.

Don't mistake an inability to spot the plot to be annoyance at being outsmarted, as I already know the general outline of the plot because of previous materials.

It's that I'm left with huge gaping plot holes that require a previous knowledge of the subject to note as being missing. 



> There are also very few and far contradictions/continuity between writers. In case you are not aware, the writers meet regularly for meetings where they discuss each other's novels and what is going to happen in future novels. There is a lot of cross-pollination of ideas.


I was aware. The general plot is laid out, but nothing more. I'm not saying continuity errors such as Space Wolves fighting on Prospero and Terra, but usually minor continuity errors that spoil the story.



> The Salamander novels do have their downpoints but the positives more than make up for the negatives. But given your obvious bias here, I am not sure how to defend them.


By all means, attempt to defend them in whatever manner. And there's no "bias" here. I'm not criticising a writer for their material as the result of a minor foray into one or two books, I'm talking about reading all of their books I can get my hands on, and judging each book. Hell, I found myself a Black Reach novella the other day, guess who wrote that? Nick Kyme. Poor show.



> And it definitely doesn't seem like you have read any of the novels with any sort of attention to details. You seem to want everything straight up. Frankly that just doesn't work. The type of Deus Ex Machina you are talking about just does not exist in the novels. Otherwise Ferrus Manus would still be alive.


No he wouldn't. We already know he was dead because of previous materials.



> Solomon Demeter would still be alive. Tarik Torgaddon would still be alive. The Raven Guard would not have been mauled at Istvaan and so on.


You obviously have no idea about Deus Ex Machina, or how it works. It's not necessarily beneficial, it's simply that something happens with no explanation as to why. Deus Ex Machina is the equivalent of "and suddenly it clicked, and the murder was solved". That happens a lot.



> Yeah good luck with trying to compare an armybook for WHF with the Horus Heresy novels. /facepalm


Simplest way I could manage to put it across; apparently by you missing me attempting to put across an example of Deus Ex Machina that was to hand, you have completely nullified your point of view.

Please, please come back when you know I am talking about. I do not enjoy wasting my time proving people wrong, and to do it by your own inability to understand basic literary devices, quality, and the way that popularity works, it's just a shame.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

General plot laid out? I would recommend watching some of the author interviews or communicating with them straight up. There is a lot of cross-pollination of ideas going on.

Also, what is the fluff inconsistency between the Space Wolves fighting on Prospero and on Terra? Is it that they are so close? I mean sure, the legion destroys Prospero and just hangs about with nothing to do right?

Are you judging Salamander because of Tsu'gan's angst? The mission to the Mechanicus ship? The time the company spends on Nocturne?

Are you judging Firedrake by the scenes involving Dak'ir's training, his visions, and the mission to Moribar? Or are you judging it by the scenes involving He'stan and the war on Geviox and in Volgarrah Reef?

Have you had a chance to read Nocturne?

Are you judging Fall of Damnos because of the apparent empahsis on Necrons being more like Tomb Kings in space? Or because the Sergeants of the Second are so antagonistic? Or because Sicarius is such an ass?

Are you judging Oathbreaker by its main character? Or the initial fight against the Skaven? Or the latter fights? Or the infighting between the Dwarfs?

Are you judging TFH because of the apparent childish behaviour of Lorgar? Because of the scenes involving Ingethel and Argel Tal within the Eye? Or the beginning with the Ultramarines? Or the scenes with the Custodes?

Are you judging Fulgrim by the semi-obvious Dorian Grey connection? By how easy it was for Fulgrim to fall? Or the sword being his downfall? The clear division of the Eldar society in 30k?

I know exactly what Deus Ex Machina is and I have yet to see even a single example of it in the HH novels. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me to something I've missed?

Oh and I didn't know that I required an ability to understand basic literary devices to be able to debate a topic. Sure, we are all very knowledgeable people with good education into literature and grammar and writing. cheers!

Also, if you want to debate DEM in the HH novels, it would be best to actually give an example from within that body of work rather than something completely unrelated.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't see any problem if the authours want to "draw out" the HH series

people who don't enjoy side-stories (Nemesis, Mechanicum, Outcast Dead) can just refrain from buying them and stick to the main arc 
people who do enjoy side-stories can go ahead and pick them up

it's win-win 

the whiners are those who don't like side-stories yet still go out of their way to read them


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> I don't see any problem if the authours want to "draw out" the HH series
> 
> people who don't enjoy side-stories (Nemesis, Mechanicum, Outcast Dead) can just refrain from buying them and stick to the main arc
> people who do enjoy side-stories can go ahead and pick them up
> ...


Totally agree with you. I have just finished The Outcast Dead, and can honestly say it is one of the best of the series, definitely in the top 5. For those who don't like reading about this stuff (which lets face it, offers the true exploration of the 30k setting), they simply don't have to buy the books, just wait until the big event ones come out. But at the same time don't be selfish and try to deny the people who do really enjoy them the opportunity.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

I can sort of agree with the bordom point, but I feel that the authors need to have a clear cut case of where we are going. I was so excited about the whole Thousand Sons/ Prospero Burns event. But then Graham held up his end of the bargin and Dan completely let me down. As I have said in previous posts don't tell me it ties into the assault on Prospero and then not even talk about whats happening during the battle.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> I'm just wondering if anyone else is experiencing Horus Heresy fatigue?
> 
> ...


YES, I am suffering from HH fatigue. In fact, I'm burned out and have not touched ANY BL book in some months (*bought *a couple, but have not opened them). I dropped BL and read all the _Song of Ice and Fire _books, first to (so far) last. Now I'm reading serious stuff. Got a stack of history next to my easy chair: _Battles of the Medieval World, 1000-1500_; _Wyatt Earp Speaks_; _Germany, 1945_; _The Greater Journey_, stuff like that. BL books are like beer --OK in its place, but some times a man needs a good bourbon.


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## Bobbyfbrewster (Oct 14, 2011)

NIKT208 said:


> On a side note, I would love to see a political piece set on Terra, where we see the rising administratum and major factions of the burgeoning Imperium using the chaos of the Heresy to extend their own power. It would have to be carefully handled, but I think it could work very well.



Must say i think this is a great idea


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Yes, I'm fatigued. NO, far beyond that, I'm burned out on HH. Haven't read one in many months (have I missed one?) Too slow, dragged out for $$$, very inconsistent quality, we all know exactly how it ends. With some exceptions, they all follow a basic plot line. There are exceptions (Nemesis, for example) but most are light weight bagatelles. I moved on to George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire and a wide variety of histories. I might come back some time, but for now, I have outgrown HH. I believe in the idea of the three fates: one spins the yarn of your life; one measures it; the third cuts it -- and then you die. There's a hell of a lot better books to read than HH before you die. I'll come back in the same way that I drink beer occasionally -- but I prefer a fine bourbon


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

Yes, yes to the fatigue question.
The Outcast dead is sitting in my bathroom wher eI read it when I use the toilet. Otherwise I have other things to read/do. I'll keep buying them though...like a weirdo.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

The majority of the series thus far has dealt with the Great Crusade, hence its size in relation to its pace.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm feeling fatigued with the HH series. I just want to read about the Siege of Terra. That's all. It's all I ever wanted to read, I've just followed the series knowing it would eventually lead there.

And Vaz, I agree, the HH series isn't the best-written in the world...but still, it answers the questions we all have. That's good enough for me. I don't need none of those fancy-dancy high-falootin' book learn'd novels anyway.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I also feel like being milked by GW, it just seems to be an enormous milking cow for GW, please move to he siege


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

If they can finish series in next 10 books, then im happy. This already has to be longest continued book series i ever read and i think its one of best but it has to end soon. Maybe im also fatigued alittle but im not anymore waiting day for next HH novel to come up as few years ago.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

I'm 99,99% sure this series won't be anywhere near finished after the next 10 books. There are a lot more heresy stories in the lore which can be turned into full novels or at least short stories and then there's the new stuff they will make up. 

To answer the OP: I'm not really fatigued but I'm a bit worried. While the expansion of established lore is not always spot on, the new stuff so far has quality problems in terms of storytelling and/or contradictions with previous Fluff/Novels in the series. I'm afraid there will be more "new stuff" novels and therefore a drop in quality and new stupid retcons/contradictions.


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## holy bolter (Dec 22, 2010)

Not fatigued and have enjoyed most of the books thus far. The two that I just couldn't get into where Nemesis and Prospero Burns . Not bad with a seventeen book series I reckon. I think someone else said it best ....not sure if it was here or on another forum. The HH is no longer a series, its a setting. I'm 30 so when I think back to the snippets of info I grew up reading in white dwarf etc, I always wanted to read about this stuff so I'm happy to keep reading.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Fatigued? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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