# (SW)Russ vs (WE)Angron



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I really dont know but I here Sang, Angron, and Russ are the best fighters. So I was thinking the SWs and WEs are both like hounds of war that must be kept on leashes. So with that said...

(1) SWs Legion vs WEs Legion in a straight up Planetary battle.
(2) Russ fights Angron 1on1.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I would go with Russ, if only seeing as increasing ammounts of fluff point towards Russ truly being created with the intention of being the Anti Primarch.

In his battle with Magnus, he demonstrated powerful blank/black pariah like abilities, and seeing as he is stated as one of the few primarchs to have beat down Horus in combat, as well as take his battle with Lion as a joke. I would say Russ would take this match if only for his uncanny ability to feed off of other primarchs powers and strengths and empower himself with them.

Keep in mind alot of this is all speculation just on what ive read from dwarf articles, prospero, etc.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

1. Space Wolves- They are tactful, the way they fight enemies is like the way animals hunt in packs.
2. Angron. His upbringing probably destroying much useful traits in him. But he was "Death Incarnate" as Corax would put it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

1: The Wolves. In battle they are pure hatred, but with a mind to control it.

2: I doubt either one of them would survive.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

1. Got to go with the Wolves on this one. They have viciousness and skill in combat to match the WE but they fight more cleverly than the WE do.

2. I don't know about this one but I'd go with Angron. They'll probably fight for a while and be a match for each other, Russ will start laughing again because he realises it's pointless and Angron, unlike the Lion who merely sucker punched him, will REALLY take acception to being laughed at and sucker chainaxe him.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hmmm. I always thought WEs was one of the scariest Legions, during the whole Terra battle it was the World Eaters (with Kharn) that made it furthest into the fortress of the Emperor. I figure they would have a vote or 2 base on pure feats of what that Legion has accomplish through strength alone.

Does anyone else think its funny how the WEs tatics leave them badly mauled but they manage to have a huge supply of warriors to throw at the next battle? Its like a never ending Recruitment. "Want to kill your boss? Angry at your parents? Like it better when a woman is on that time of the month? Then Angrons WEs are the legion for you!"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At Warlock,
Well, think of it this way. Chances are you will hear a WE long before you see him and if you can get away you are good. You won't hear a SW battle cry till it is far to late to do anything about it and you can never get away from them. They will follow you till the end of the earth.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I also wonder if Grey Hunters cover eachother in they're piss just incase they get seperated, and they can sniff their team down.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If they did they would smell like the WE. What would be the point?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Does anyone else think its funny how the WEs tatics leave them badly mauled but they manage to have a huge supply of warriors to throw at the next battle? Its like a never ending Recruitment.


They're probably using the same make-a-marine-in-a-month technique the Blood Ravens use.:biggrin:

Hmmm... do Space Wolves smell like wet dog after a rainstorm?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

1: I back the wolves. Ferocity, but not at the expense of clarity.

2: Russ. Same reason. Both are Berzerkers, but Russ has a sharper mind and an ability to react better to any potential weakness.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

1. SW, as people have mentioned, they are beserkers aswell but still tactically sound

2. Hmmm, i want to say Russ, or they would both die. Corax however thinks that Angron would trump Russ


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## Silverclaw (Mar 11, 2010)

1: I'm not sure... but i think that people underestimate the mental capacity of the WE...

2re or post heresy? 
if pre then i am not sure here either, but if it is post heresy I would put my bet on the huge raging daemonprimarch....


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angron is hampered by his uncontrollable rages. Russ is not just a fierce warrior; he's as cunning as he is brutal. I go with the Wolf-King.

Where the Legions are concerned, there are just too many variables that we don't know about. We have no idea how large the World Eaters were as opposed to the Space Wolves, or vice-versa. We have no clue what size fleets they brought to bear, either.

My initial thought was that the Space Wolves would have been tactically and strategically more reliable and competent. Consider Skraal from "Battle for the Abyss", though. The stereotype we hold of the World Eaters would lead us to think he would have just gone down in a hail of fire on day one. Instead, he waged a protracted one-man guerilla war, demonstrating cunning, stealth and patience.

Things to ponder.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

WEs vs SWs really could go either way. The WEs are savage, not stupid. That stereotype holds no water that the WE would rush headlong into the guns of the SW. It would boil down to if the WEs got close enough. No marine is a match in CC for a WE. WEs are dedicated to CC above all else. It's their form of religous worship. I imagine they're pretty good at it. I'd say the best. They were the legion to breach the defenses of Dorn on Terra. But if the SW could bring their guns to bear and keep the WE out of their lines I could see them winning. The SW aren't pushovers. I rather admire them and their take no crap from anyone attitude.

Angron however would beat Russ like a puppy. Sure, Russ is a fighter. But no primarch ever wanted to face Angron in combat. Corax sure didn't. During the Isstvan massacre Angron killed marines by the dozens and shrugged off a wall collapsing on him. His ferocity and durability know no bounds. It took 100 Grey Knights just to banish him with all their anti-chaos gear plus the combined might of the IG during the Reign of Fire. Angron is the pinnacle CC specialist or Khorne would have sought out a different primarch. Sure, some people think it's all because Angron is an utter savage but lots of Khorne's worshippers are drawn to him to increase their abilities in combat. Rage is the end result. Not the begining.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Uilleam said:


> Angron however would beat Russ like a puppy. Sure, Russ is a fighter. But no primarch ever wanted to face Angron in combat. Corax sure didn't. During the Isstvan massacre Angron killed marines by the dozens and shrugged off a wall collapsing on him. His ferocity and durability know no bounds. It took 100 Grey Knights just to banish him with all their anti-chaos gear plus the combined might of the IG during the Reign of Fire. Angron is the pinnacle CC specialist or Khorne would have sought out a different primarch. Sure, some people think it's all because Angron is an utter savage but lots of Khorne's worshippers are drawn to him to increase their abilities in combat. Rage is the end result. Not the begining.


No primarch ever wanted to fight any other primarch. Just wasn't good for anyone involved. It took 100 GK terms to banish DAEMON PRINCE Angron, 12 bloodthirstes and an army of lesser daemons and chaos marines. 

You are aware this is pre-heresy?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

hmm..This is a good question, Pre-heresy, I am going with World Eater vs Space wolves, Everyone seems to think that all they could do was roflcopter at the opponent dual chainaxe style, and either die in the process. They were brutal, they were pissed off, they were not stupid. 

Space wolve are canny opponents, but you also have to remember, they have a HUGE amount of pride, and a place a vast amount of stake in personal honour, do you really think that going up against the "best close combat legion" Russ and his wolves would just sit there? Heavy weapons blaring from 500 feet away? 

Fuck no. They would want to prove themselves able warriors. And in closing with the world eaters, they seal their fates.

In a Russ vs. Angron encounter, Its harder to say, because they were both very skilled, and fought similarily, but I see Angron more as a blistering series of blows forcing their opponent to block until Angron beat them down, while muss may be the same, but he is also cunning enough wait for the opponing and deal the deathblow.

I cant say who would win, but whoever won, he would still come out near enough dead I think.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> No primarch ever wanted to fight any other primarch. Just wasn't good for anyone involved. It took 100 GK terms to banish DAEMON PRINCE Angron, 12 bloodthirstes and an army of lesser daemons and chaos marines.
> 
> You are aware this is pre-heresy?


Russ and the Lion liked to duke it out. So did Dorn and Kruze. I dunno. I see lots of Primarch vs Primarch. And I'd think the GKs were more than likely there to fight Angron, the root of their problem, rather than the rest of his followers.

You are aware the original post states nothing about this being strictly pre-heresy?  And even if it was only Pre-Heresy I don't think Russ measures up to Angron's murderous rampages or has the fortitude to shrug of an entire wall collapsing on him. I think Russ has lots of gifts Angron certainly doesn't but in a stand up fight he's gonna get schooled. I still think Russ could beat the snot out of Sanguinius but that's an entirely different thread. :wink:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Uilleam said:


> You are aware the original post states nothing about this being strictly pre-heresy?


Well it assumes the author has the intelligence to figure that out since a DP primarch would make short work of ANY other primarch this must be strictly pre-heresy. Rest of what you said is fine since it is opinion based..... except for the 100 knights. They were sent to eliminate the primarch and his 12 bloodthirsters.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, you know what they say about making assumptions don't you? 

Plus I don't think a Daemonic Primarch is really that much scarier than the original or you'd have them out of the Eye in one of the Black Crusades and crushing the Imperium into the ground with impunity. I think they would have had the intelligence to figure that out. Especially with all the loyalist primarchs dead, missing, or FUBARed.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They are much scarier, in a way, but they also have lost their drive to conquer the imperium. When they ascended they achieved the ultimate goal. Now their main goal is the game(see CoTE because I have no idea). But, really, even if they are it wouldn't matter simply because they don't have the numbers.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Why is there even a contest between Russ vs Angron?? When Lion throws him throw a table, then knocks his ass out, (even if it was because Russ started to laugh) and Lion isnt even a well known CC specialist, but yet somehow Russ can beat the most renowned CC fighter...I smell Wolf Fanboy shenanigans. 

BTW being knocked out cold by 1 punch, means you got a shit chin...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

CJay said:


> Why is there even a contest between Russ vs Angron?? When Lion throws him throw a table, then knocks his ass out, (even if it was because Russ started to laugh) and Lion isnt even a well known CC specialist, but yet somehow Russ can beat the most renowned CC fighter...I smell Wolf Fanboy shenanigans.
> 
> BTW being knocked out cold by 1 punch, means you got a shit chin...


The Wolf King was one of the greatest fighters of the primarchs. Also, he was laughing his ass off when he was knocked out. It isn't as though it was a fair hit. Btw he also ripped a titans head off with his bear hands and beat the living shit out of the largest primarch.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Well it was a close fight with Magnus it was not a walk in the park for Russ,
still my money is one Russ, 
In terms of strength and endurance they are comparable I think Russ is more cunning.
Angron can only be in a state of utter desire for destruction. The fact that Russ can also be in another state (e.g. Drunk, hungry) does not mean he cannot go Bezerk.
Would be a cool fight though


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Didn't Russ take a powerfist punch by the Emperor, as well as at another time by The Lion?

Tbh though I think it's pretty equal Primarch to Primarch, all the advantages Russ has like being a Pariah don't really effect Angron and don't forget Angron isn't totally Mindless he was a gladiator, his prowess in martial ability is equal to his berserk character.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Its funny how people compare two people and two forces with one side having much less written fluff than the other. There isn't a whole book on how the World Eaters conquer a world (Horus Rising comes to mind), except for a few hints that they massacred everyone and anyone who got in their way. Take this into consideration when comparing these two (or rather any) sides.

When the two Legions would clash they would probably have their Primarchs with them. The battlefield would be most likely a mountain or a forest (definately not a city, its not a place for a Legion vs Legion duel) where the Space Wolves could set up all sorts of ambushes. I imagine the World Eaters would close up to the mountain (lets stick to this for the example's sake) but they'd stop just beyond the SW's guns' range. Angron would step up and challange Russ and his Legion (lets not forget, outrageous challanges are part of a gladiator's tricks), calling them gutless cowards for hiding behind bushes and not putting up a fight like a true warrior. He'd say that if Russ doesn't come out he'll go back to his ship and tell the whole world that the Space Wolves are just puppy hugging women who can't put up a good fight. Sure, its obvious that hes taunting Russ but Angron isn't the type who wouldn't do what he says he would. With this in mind Russ has no chance but to come out with his Legion and take it like a man.

The first few minutes would involve some shooting from both sides but not too much, seeing as how both armies are honour-bound and have a preferance for close combat over hiding behind big guns. Both sides would be charging each other, eager for blood and glory. Say what you want about either side but there would be much bloodshed before the day is done. But we all know that every army is as strong as their lord...

Eventually, Angron and Russ would manage to reach each other and engage in a merciless duel. The fighting would slowly stop as both sides witness the clash of demigods - or perhaps not, who knows? Either way, the Primarchs would have trouble gaining the upper hand over the other one, having roughly the same stamina (hunting vs endless training), lasting out the other is not an option either. However, as the fight goes on Angron's gladiatorial training starts to kick in, as he adapts to his opponent's fighting style and slowly at first, but even faster as the duel rages on Angron would grind Russ into the ground (since while Russ might be badass incarnate, hes more used to having options and using a cleverly chosen set of special abilities so that he can counter his opponent's strengths by exploting his weaknesses, rather than being stuck in a situation where his opponent has no psychic powers at all that he could nullify, no too-clever-and-thus-distracted mind, just sheer strength, stamina and skill; if he had any offensive psychic powers (which he doesn't as far as I know) he could gain the upper hand because thats the only weak spot in Angron's armour (other than being a better fighter than him)). Russ would fall eventually, leaving Angron badly injured. The Space Wolves' morale would be destroyed, the World Eater's would be swelling with pride and the Space Wolves would be reduced to where the Crimson Fists currently are: only the best survive but still, too few to be a well-functioning force.

Thats my take on it with the limited knowledge I have of the sides involved. However, it has to be said that both sides could possibly win, so at the end of the day it would boil down to which side having plot armour. But even so, it would be a very, very close call.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

From all evidence given, Angron does not seem the type to bunker down in a good position and taunt someone out. And im of the opinion that whomever won the duel would die from their own wounds shortly after anyway


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> From all evidence given, Angron does not seem the type to bunker down in a good position and taunt someone out.


Nah, he won't bunker down. He'll wave his arms around like chicken wings and make clucking noises till Russ can't stand it anymore.:biggrin:


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> From all evidence given, Angron does not seem the type to bunker down in a good position and taunt someone out. And im of the opinion that whomever won the duel would die from their own wounds shortly after anyway


I didn't say that, I just said that he wouldn't jump into an obvious trap and he would make Russ fall into his obvious trap instead.  



Chompy Bits said:


> Nah, he won't bunker down. He'll wave his arms around like chicken wings and make clucking noises till Russ can't stand it anymore.:biggrin:


That would certainly work! :laugh: Oh god, make me unsee it! :laugh:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't think he would even set a trap, it just does not seem to be in his character type or personality at all, and even if he did, the chances of Russ falling for such an obvious trap are slim


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

It's an interesting question - and I don't think that I could easilly put my money in either camp. I would suggest though that it would go with the army which had the momentum. In your example above I can imagine the wolves crashing into the 'Eater's lines like a wave and driving through them - we've all seen the charge of the roharim right? If the situation were reveresed then It would be equally as brutal. 

These are both armies and warriors which fight on the front foot - I think it would be more likely that th manouvring to get the charge would be more likely to carry the day.

~O


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think he would even set a trap, it just does not seem to be in his character type or personality at all, and even if he did, the chances of Russ falling for such an obvious trap are slim


In essence, its a challange. In practice, its a trap. What happens, is that Angron doesn't know his challange is a trap.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I believe Korothis had it right on the money and a little change to spare. People neglect to do any sort indepth look into the WE and they make a biased assumption out of a stereotype that WE are only raged filled CSM who cant think for the life of them in battle and are always screaming and swinging at stuff. Sure Gav Thorpe wrote that in the CSM to make them psychopathic maniacs, but that isnt the full truth at all. WE are a close combat specialised legion! Sure bring the big guns and shoot long range weaponry at them, and watch as stereotypical action comes into play and the WE charge into our guns screaming like lunatics while dying by the dozens. 

Sadly for all those who would like to believe thats all they ever do or capable of doing, then they are sadly mistaken. For a legion that is over thousands of years old and have fought on many battlefields you would think that they would have come up with something to counter long range weaponry? There a highly successful CC specialised force capable of dealing with many situations including the one mentioned above, mindless charging does not win battles, not as many as they have won and is not the tactic they use ALL the time. WE are Berserkers sure, in combat they let loose their martial prowess and hatred which gives them strength, but it does not rob them of logic and common sense. But out of combat they are still able to think tactically (need a reference read in the CSM codex about Mandathrax.) like any other marines and have the cunning and intelligence to make them feared opponents in a large scale battle due to their boldness, ferocity and tenacity. They are bred in battle from the moment they are recruited into the WE and most have only seen combat as their way of life and nothing else and by god they know how to kill shit when they really push themselves to it. Remember WE had one of the most renowned and best Assault Companies out of any Legion with plenty of victories to prove it and besides that WE have plenty of ways to cover or counter the advantages that long range armies might have, their not stupid to not notice that CC does have its weak points.

People who have read the SW fluff and books are highly biased in the fact that GW puts more effort into Fanboying them into awesomeness at the exclusion of more deserving legions like WE who have no outstanding fluff source of any kind besides common knowledge and CSM codex and a few notions here and there. SW are also publicized way more then they need to be to gain support since Smurfs are going down the drain in popularity due to well placed criticism. Now to be fair WE would have a tough time against SW because SW are pretty savage (but not as much as WE because of the one thing that seperates them: SW marines have not been Lobotomized to have no Fear at all and the strength of anger that WE thrive from) and SW train alot sure and are a great legion being one of the Anti-legion legions, but how is hunting traits going to help you in combat? lol SW vs WE legion fight would be bloody at best but WE would have the advantage from the traits listed above.

Now Angron and Russ.... where to begin? I will try not to be biased and say Angron wins hands down. haha. Russ is both cunning and brilliant warrior managing to spar Horus and beat up Magnus, but Angron is just a monster when it comes to something he has lived his whole life doing. He not only has the gladitorial skills, but also has the durablity, endurance and strength to boost his martial prowess beyond any measurable level. Angron isnt your typical angry brute who cant hit the broadside of a barn if his life depended on it, but he is more a skilled, gigantic, lethal, and dangerous demon in CC. His Anger fuels his strength and his stubbornness increases his durability, he is a brilliant warrior so he knows every trick in the book when it comes to CC duels. He is not only strong, but to be a good warrior you also need the reflex's and speed to back it up and i'm pretty sure Angron has plenty of everything required to be the best and more. His headstrong personality will make sure he never gives up no matter the odds and he can fight a protracted battle far longer and harder then any other primarch for sure. (omg, i did post highly biased material. lol Go Angron! show them haters how Chaos really kicks some ass.)

I think WE and Angron are fully and utterly capable of taking the SW and Russ head on, and might even destroy them if they had the chance, but at the highest costs and damage only a legion vs legion battle would bring.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Angron all the dam way.

While Russ is busy being cunning, Angron is busy being killy!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

hard to say on this one. the wolves are savage in battle just like the world eaters but at least they not outright berserker freaks, though pretty close. it would probably just be a battle where every single one of them would be dead from battle or from the wounds after the fact.

as for angron vs russ ill have to read prospero burns to make a guess but id say this about angron he had a whole mountain fall on him (galaxy in flames?) and he got out like nothing happened and seeing him in 'after de'shea' the guy is a raging psycho but then so is russ but in a more intelligent way.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It wasn't a mountain. No where close.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It wasn't a mountain. No where close.


No it wasn't a mountain but it was still thousands of tonnes. Which is still a shitload.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

But not all on him. A ton, even to a marine, is like putting a 200 pound weight on a humans back, difficult maybe but not beyond most peoples ability, and primarchs are many times stronger than a marine. Hell, a building fell down around grimaldus(spelling?) and he managed to pull himself out.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The Guy pulled himself out of double digits of Tons (Even the SMs who new how badass a Primarch is thought he surley bit it) just poped out of the gorund and begin killing like nothing happen. I like to think back to Glaxy in Flames where Saul Tarvitz, hardbitten classic ATSKNF badass leader of the resistance, ran in fear when Angron charge what was left of the loyal WEs.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah but whose to say Russ or the other primarchs couldn't also survive being burried like that aswell


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> But not all on him. A ton, even to a marine, is like putting a 200 pound weight on a humans back, difficult maybe but not beyond most peoples ability, and primarchs are many times stronger than a marine. Hell, a building fell down around grimaldus(spelling?) and he managed to pull himself out.


Actually Grimaldus didn't pull himself out, he was rescued- plus he was trapped by the building in such a manner that he wasn't crushed, if the building had actually landed on him properly he'd be paste.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

ok first i'd like to sanguinius the leader of some proper nut nuts, i mean they really go nuts, not just angry like the we and sw they get sanctioned and everything! also the angel went toe to toe with the guy that nearly killed/killed the emperor, i mean yeah he died but he took a chunk out of him, also khorne did want him but failed cos sanguinius was loyal and khorne loved the BA specially when he saw them tear a planet and a ton of we when the we killed their captain or something 

BUT lets base this on the fact that its two equal sized forces both already landed without support from allies

the sw have a tendency to use lots of heavy weapons, armour and bikes, we dont? so the we would get cut to bits at range then the puppies would cut into them and imho yes angron was a gladiator but russ speant his early years constantly fighting too.

i think it'd be hard graft but russ would kill him, angron adapting his style is one thing but i dont think russ would be that dumb as to see through that and what do you think russ would be doing while angron is analysing his technique apart from ripping him a new one


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Chuck Norris.

Please don't negative rep me... :shout:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Hmmm. I always thought WEs was one of the scariest Legions, during the whole Terra battle it was the World Eaters (with Kharn) that made it furthest into the fortress of the Emperor. I figure they would have a vote or 2 base on pure feats of what that Legion has accomplish through strength alone.
> 
> Does anyone else think its funny how the WEs tatics leave them badly mauled but they manage to have a huge supply of warriors to throw at the next battle? Its like a never ending Recruitment. "Want to kill your boss? Angry at your parents? Like it better when a woman is on that time of the month? Then Angrons WEs are the legion for you!"


lmfao now thats a recruitment poster warlock lol nice one gonna give you rep for that:victory:

anyway not sure about who would win, both are savage legions and both have the feroicty and tenacity to never give in so i am gonna sit on the fence on that one.

one on one....i think chompy is right russ would laugh at it i guess and angron would take exception to it seeing as he really does not have a sense of humour per sae unless he is cutting someones spleen out to have with a fresh glass of cianti pfft pfft i think it would be a duel to the death, neither one would give way and would end up killing each other.


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## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

1. This is hard to do but I have to say the space wolves.
2. Probably Angron


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

The Rage of the Zerkers is way beyond the comprehension of the SW and they dont even match any where close to them so stop saying they are just as "Furious or savage or Berserk". Well for one they havent had their hormonal rush elevated beyond the norm, nor have they had their Fear fully quenched, and they havent dedicated themselves to the most bloodthirsty and crazed of gods. SW still have a residue of human sympathy while WE have none. WE are known for alot of Assault specialists like Jump marines, Armoured Transports and Terminators. They are not lacking, and SW as i recall have their initiates as their assault units or blood claws. hmmm, initiates vs veteran assault marine? Who would win?

Now to analyse a Primarch vs Primarch battle, Russ vs Angron.

Comparison:

Russ Angron
Cunning Anger gives him strength
Fast Fast
Master Warrior Master Warrior
Intelligent Durable as hell

kinda busy at them moment so more to come...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Blind rage isn't going to win you a battle, by blindly zerging in like the WE will they can be led into traps and ambushes. And sure the Space Wolves initiates are thrown straight into the assaults from the word go, but that just means the rest of the Wolves past initate stage are already brilliant in close combat. And they ARE still savages in combat, have you seen the Wulfen? All SW's have that in them somewhere and can easily fly into a beserker rage like the WE.

As for Russ and Angron. I still think they will both die, but either way, people keep bringing up how 'durable' Angron is because he had a massive wall fall onto him. But we have no idea whether the other primarchs are just as capable of surviving such an event.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm not sure if lexicanum is a reputable source (though they do require a source in order to post information so it is in a way reputable) 

Also NO SPACE WOLF is as berserk as a WE berserker. SW are not enhanced in anyway to make them so. If you think they are berserk then please make your argument plausible by providing some evidence instead of the usual boring statement with no backing like oh "Space Wolves are ferocious and there fierce and downright savages, but cunning also!" or "yeah, SW are just as berserk (<--- very bland, and not worth reading) and Wulfen are not considered SW for they become beasts instead having been consumed by their animalistic nature and a defect of the Fenrisian Helix (I think). Also dont Wulfen only show up in times of dire need? So SW would have to be losing pretty badly for them to come. (( Note: I thought this was pre-heresy legion discussion?))

It states in Lexi "The time of the Horus Heresy it is said that no other Primarch could have bested Angron in single combat save for Horus and perhaps Sanguinius." 

Also to those who keep saying that Leman Russ beat the emperor he actually did not. He only won 2 of the 3 required challenges were he need to win all 3 in order to be victor. And the 2 he won are not even relevant to Russ's martial prowess as those 2 involved eating alot and drinking alot not fighting which he lost to the Emperor with a good ole power fist to the face (hmmm... fate seems to replay itself as the Lions powerfist did the same thing, haha) xD


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lexi is about as good a source of credible info as my right butt cheek. 

I suggest you read more because the moment you said the Wolfen didn't exist pre-heresy your entire post was simply writen of as BS. 

My suggestion is the Ragnar books and A Thousand Sons.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

As Ahab said the Wulfen do exsist. Read the Space Wolf omnibus. also, SW have very hightend battle senses because of the fenrisian helix that is implated in them as part of their gene seed. Russ could win against Angron, because they are basically even (if the fight was pre heresy) afterward i say it could sway either way. Is there proof through fluff that angron took part in receiving the blood lust and frenzy of a 'Zerker?


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes.. winzip.. he had gladitorial implants put in his brain if you read his fluff as do all zerkers because he spread the Lobo practice of psycho surgery on his legion.. and no its not like the Blood angels Blood rage at all, thats a geneseed defect. 

The Fenrisian Helix does heighten their senses to a degree and does make them animalistic thus have the traits of beasts which includes natural savagery (which mankind has proven that human savagery beats natural savagery in destructive potential) but does not facilitate an increase in emotions or any significant difference in the biological function of emotions.

and Gen When i ment wulfen didnt existing i ment Pre-heresy but as you say its in Thousand Sons which i havent read yet. and BTW Ragnar is after the Horus Heresy.

I stand corrected on the Wulfen ( thou not by much) but the rest of my post still stands.

Also to give evidence to WE not being just angry maniacs here's some supporting info on Anger:

"When anger occurs, the body goes instantly into a series of mind-body reactions involving hormones, the nervous system and the muscles. This involves a release of adrenaline which results in shortness of breath, skin flushing, muscle rigidity, and tightening in the jaw, stomach, shoulder and hands. Our thoughts can become fragmented and our eyes may dart from object to object. We become agitated and may even tremble. Our first impulse may be to take action which could turn out to be destructive.
Think of anger as a tool for survival. When we perceive a threat, we experience a fight or flight response.
That is, we will either struggle to avert the threat or we will flee the situation. Either response can be adaptive, depending on the circumstances. Anger is a tool that, when used effectively, can motivate us to solve problems and confront threats in a sensible manner. responses to anger differ greatly as well. Some people are able to experience angry feelings and use them as a way of solving problems rationally and effectively. Others turn their anger inward and engage in self-destructive behavior. Other people strike out when they feel angry. And some refuse to acknowledge their anger – or they confuse anger with other emotions such as vulnerability or fear." - Rita Lehmann, article on Anger- managing a powerful emotion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Who typically goes berserk.... As do some other wolves. And the existed since the the first wolves were implanted with the canis helix and they don't have anything to do with the warp. Also, the Wolfen is a defect.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

Ok well now i know . But Wulfen did exsist prehersy. in the SW omnibus it talks about how the first wulfen was made. Wulfen (thats the characters real name) was a powerful man that Russ wanted to be in his Legion when he started taking men from fenris. every man had to drink from a cup that was to be an SW. When Wulfen drank from the cup, the evil inside him took over and he became a wulfen, half man half beast. From that day forward, every space wolf aspirant has to drink from the Cup of Wulfen to see if they have any evil in them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The curse of the Wulfen can manifest at any point in a Space Wolfs life though. And when regular SW's go into a beserk rage due to their animalistic instincts, they are angry would you believe it. Human savagery doesn't nessacarily beat animal savagery like a wolf at all.

The Wulfen have existed since the inception of the Legion, a whole company of them were unleashed upon Prospero and they surrounded Russ alot of the time


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Beast Savagery is a different category from human savagery as there is no emotional influence and more instinctive in nature for animals. When wolves go berserk they are aggressive and dangerous but they do not feel anything when they are and is more an innate response to a threat not a over escalation of adrenaline and anger like humans experience. and yes AoB, i agree that they would be angry when in a berserk state due to being human.

P.S- When someone can prove that animals do have emotions please inform the scientific community of this for it would be a Scientific breakthrough they have been looking for.

and yes i'm aware of that winzip because in the SW omnibus Ragnar constantly has to keep his inner demon in check and he even fought a wulfen, though in the SW omnibus Wulfen are insane psychotic animals with some humanity but overiden by the Dominating animalistic nature they possess so they have little to no human thoughts or ability to think because all thoughts and cognitive functions are drowned by there animalistic fury and rage. The accounts of the Wulfen are contradicting when comparing SW omnibus and Thousands Sons book. The Wulfen i would say are the closest SW can get to WE berserk state and Blood Angels blood rage is also another state just as bad, but both Wulfen and Blood rage have a major downside in the fact that they cant think properly and lose themselves in that state.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

WE lose themselves just as much though. Whether animals have emotions or not is neither here nor there as the SW do have emotions and they are still going to retain these when going beserk as they are still astartes. And even then i would argue that going beserk without emotion would be even more dangerous, with no emotional control to hold you back, nothing on your mind except killing your target, everything given over to the one action with nothing else to cloud your mind. It's a pure focused, unrelenting, uncomprimising drive to kill. Again i would say this is much mroe dangerous.

Put the angriest person in the world who is in a complete rage, put him against almost any apex predator which wants to kill him/her and they are going to die. Your not going to beat a grizzly or polar bear, a lion, tiger, crocodile, hippo(yes hippo!) elephant etc etc no matter how angry your are or how much of a savage. Almost every single time, the animal is going to come out on top.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Leman Russ beat's all in a contest 1 on 1. His strength is supreme (provided he isn't distracted by fair fenrisian maidens or intoxicated on our fine ale). 

As for a planetary invasion legion vs legion, it would depend on many factors and be too close to call. But I feel the Space Wolves would have the edge. (of course if I was Russ's second in command it would be an easy win :grin


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

AoB, when is anger considered a emotional control? thats weak seeing as anger has nothing to do with control. Many have tried to control their anger, but if it is strong enough it will make you a mad beast and when those who have fully succumbed to their anger and accepted then they are truly a monster. 

Emotion provides a incentive, a cold killer feels nothing and his motivation is based on what he needs or wants to do. A angry berserk is much more terrifying because he would be highly dangerous and violent.

Haha, give a Angry madman a sharp object and watch as shit hits the fan and he will kill anything no matter what it is. Anger with the strength to use that anger is a potentially destructive combination. A midget who is angry wont be able to do much, The Hulk when he is angry is Destruction incarnate!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> AoB, when is anger considered a emotional control? thats weak seeing as anger has nothing to do with control. Many have tried to control their anger, but if it is strong enough it will make you a mad beast and when those who have fully succumbed to their anger and accepted then they are truly a monster.


This is just melodramatic crap. Doesn't really tell me jack shit..... actually it might hurt your argument.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Emotion provides a incentive, a cold killer feels nothing and his motivation is based on what he needs or wants to do. A angry berserk is much more terrifying because he would be highly dangerous and violent.


Emotion blinds and dulls the mind. The wolves are the embodiment of cold hatred. They behave like wolves. They will do anything to get the kill, but they won't charge blindly down the guts to get it. They will maneuver around and strike at the throat. WE have all the keen tactical subtly of beached whale 



XxDreMisterxX said:


> give a Angry madman a sharp object and watch as shit hits the fan and he will kill anything no matter what it is. Anger with the strength to use that anger is a potentially destructive combination. A midget who is angry wont be able to do much, The Hulk when he is angry is Destruction incarnate!


An angry man is an idiot. Russ is a cold, calculating butcher that will find your weak point and exploit it.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

One thing though, I think in a legion vs legion fight the WE will be a lot more free to go ape shit. Reading the SW books it makes it seem that the wulfen thing is a constant struggle for any wolf and that they always have to practive a degree of restraint in their actions. The WE are lobotomised hooligans and have no concerns of such a nature. They can afford to fully give in to their rage without the fear of turning into a hairy beast. I still think the Wolves would win though.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Gen- your argument is highly biased for i have yet to see you present the pro's of any thing opposite of your view. Emotion unchecked can cloud the mind and senses but when controlled it has rarely any bad effects. Controlling anger has and will always be a constant struggle for humanity. its truth and fact, not that melodramatic crap that you see on the soap opera if thats what you mean. 

Sure WE lack the cold precision but they make up for it in eager thirst for blood and battle and thrive from constant conflict that tests their skills as warriors. Sure a sharp sword will make short work of any opponent when used with precision and accuracy to aim at the weak points, while a heavy mace wielded with enough skill and brute strength will produce the same effect but is much more straight forward and requires less thought when the enemy is pounded to a pulp rather then diced up. Its a matter of personal preference. Kill enemy short and fast or take longer doing it but utterly breaking them down slowly and surely and eventually their defenses will give and they will be crushed.

Saying a Angry man is a idiot does not present a feasible argument because anger has nothing to do with ones intelligence. Sure anger is an emotion, but like any emotion it can be controlled with enough practice and mental discipline. WE are not angry morons for if you read the Mandathrax entry in the CSM codex it clearly shows that they are capable of rational thought in the midst of combat and do not wholly succumb to utter blinding rage and UNTIL you read the entry you will not have sufficient insight into the WE to make any sort of judgement on them.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Beast Savagery is a different category from human savagery as there is no emotional influence and more instinctive in nature for animals. When wolves go berserk they are aggressive and dangerous but they do not feel anything when they are and is more an innate response to a threat not a over escalation of adrenaline and anger like humans experience. and yes AoB, i agree that they would be angry when in a berserk state due to being human.
> 
> P.S- When someone can prove that animals do have emotions please inform the scientific community of this for it would be a Scientific breakthrough they have been looking for.
> 
> and yes i'm aware of that winzip because in the SW omnibus Ragnar constantly has to keep his inner demon in check and he even fought a wulfen, though in the SW omnibus Wulfen are insane psychotic animals with some humanity but overiden by the Dominating animalistic nature they possess so they have little to no human thoughts or ability to think because all thoughts and cognitive functions are drowned by there animalistic fury and rage. The accounts of the Wulfen are contradicting when comparing SW omnibus and Thousands Sons book. The Wulfen i would say are the closest SW can get to WE berserk state and Blood Angels blood rage is also another state just as bad, but both Wulfen and Blood rage have a major downside in the fact that they cant think properly and lose themselves in that state.


actually i thought animals did have emotions, maybe not like humans but some never the less, when a dog or a cat is happy they wag thier tails or pur, when they are angry they growl or hiss and if you have ever looked into an animals eyes when it has been mistreated...that kinda says it all really just cause they cannot convey them like us does not mean they do not have them


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> AoB, when is anger considered a emotional control? thats weak seeing as anger has nothing to do with control. Many have tried to control their anger, but if it is strong enough it will make you a mad beast and when those who have fully succumbed to their anger and accepted then they are truly a monster.


 
Right so hang on, you've just said anger has *Nothing *to do with control and then in your next post said 



XxDreMisterxX said:


> but like any emotion it can be controlled with enough practice and mental discipline.


So which is it? Your switching your arguement constantly between anger being so dangerous because there is no control over it, then going onto say if a man can control his anger then he is more dangerous.




XxDreMisterxX said:


> Emotion provides a incentive, a cold killer feels nothing and his motivation is based on what he needs or wants to do. A angry berserk is much more terrifying because he would be highly dangerous and violent.


An animals sole desire to kill you is just a strong incentive as anything else. An angry beserker is terrifying because he is highly dangerous and violent? A hippo/lion/bear which wants to kill you is just as dangerous and violent. Again if they don't have any emotion their judgement cannot be clouded by anything, its cold and uncomprimising.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Haha, give a Angry madman a sharp object and watch as shit hits the fan and he will kill anything no matter what it is. Anger with the strength to use that anger is a potentially destructive combination. A midget who is angry wont be able to do much, The Hulk when he is angry is Destruction incarnate.


Im sorry but if you give a man a sharp object and put him up against an elephant, polar bear, hippo etc hes still probably going to die, and even then you've just changed the scenario completely. If we are going to judge the WE vs SW we know that they are both armed, if your going to make a comparison you have to make it like the event your comparing it to and we can't really arm the animals in this comparison, therefore giving the angry man a weapon against the animal makes it a completely different fight. But even then i'm still putting my money on the big predators, sharp object or not. And really? your bringing the hulk into this? Well your credibility just took a massive nose dive when you said that.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Sure WE lack the cold precision but they make up for it in eager thirst for blood and battle and thrive from constant conflict that tests their skills as warriors. Sure a sharp sword will make short work of any opponent when used with precision and accuracy to aim at the weak points, while a heavy mace wielded with enough skill and brute strength will produce the same effect but is much more straight forward and requires less thought when the enemy is pounded to a pulp rather then diced up. Its a matter of personal preference. Kill enemy short and fast or take longer doing it but utterly breaking them down slowly and surely and eventually their defenses will give and they will be crushed.


This furthers the discussion in no way, you yourself countered your own point when you said its down to personal preferance. So yeah, pretty strange thing to do there.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> WE are not angry morons for if you read the Mandathrax entry in the CSM codex it clearly shows that they are capable of rational thought in the midst of combat and do not wholly succumb to utter blinding rage and UNTIL you read the entry you will not have sufficient insight into the WE to make any sort of judgement on them.


Sorry but what? At what point do you consider turning on your own men and an entire legion collapsing in on itself as they all kill each other as rational thought? They had enough of their very basic instincts left to realise they couldn't survive the night but then just started killing each other instead. Yep highly rational if you ask me


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

OMG this back and forth of "whos the angriest and can still fight" is killing me. In the of Matharax as someone stated earlier shows WEs waiting till the Big Guns reload and then charge. That shows they have intelegence due to their Beserking fury. Galaxy in Flames shows they charge Headlong into battle regardless of casualties. Yet they still break thru the Palace Walls and reached deeper into the Palace than any other Legion. They also fought head on into a hopless battle against Angron and the Traitors where Saul Tarvitz ran for his life. Shortly after the HH on Skaltharax, in the winter where the WEs charges met the EC Sonic Weapons led to a stalemate till Kharn force the Legion to fight instead of taken shelter like thinking Marines do.

All this points to the WEs as Win Big or Lose Big. Their CC tatics and unsurpass savageness makes them overpower the enemy or allow themselves be pushed back by careful planning and well place fire. Their not stupid/sensless, but they have Extreme Tunnel Vision when it comes to battle. Their CC is also their weakness I think.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

i'm sure long posts dont make you right 

therefore.... if you are comparing the DC rage with either the WE or SW then most of them die. therefore the 'more mental' WE would get cut to peaces by the 'less mental' SW.

OR the SW sould sucumb to the wulfen and get cut to peaces

OR the BA would come down and wip everyones butt


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes i agree with you warlock on the point that this entire debate is really more a battle of semantics. Its like a UFC fight, people bet who's going to win and pick a person but they wont know the outcome of the fight or who will win until the match actually starts and ends. Since this discussion is entirely fictional we will never know what will happen and so we provide educated guesses on the outcome.

Gothik- there has been many studies on whether animals have emotions or not. Some Scientists say they do but cant back it with sufficient evidence and some say they dont and say they are governed more by their innate instincts that tell them how to respond and act to a given situation.

AoB- Haha, your talking to me about credibility? The difference of human and animal characteristics differ and the factors so vague that such a discussion using animal metaphors will not hold any ground or evidence between WE and SW, SW have animal traits but are NOT animals themselves for they are still human nor do they have animal genes or instincts (they may have instincts similar to animals but is not the same) and the fact that your last post does not make any sense at all for it clearly shows you have not read Kharn's Entry in the CSM codex and the events of the battle of Skalathrax so thats were your credibility took a nose dive from lack of research.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> and the fact that your last post does not make any sense at all for it clearly shows you have not read Kharn's Entry in the CSM codex and the events of the battle of Skalathrax so thats were your credibility took a nose dive from lack of research.


If we are using lack of research as a determining factor we would have simply ignored you from the beginning.

And his last post made perfect sense. Try reading it again. IF it still doesn't make sense, keep reading it till it does.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Nope still doesnt. since apparantly u dont realize why i mentioned Kharn and the battle of Skalathrax or how they are related at all and it seems to me you havent read it too. Because then you would understand.  and why would a human fight a animal without a weapon cause thats a completely useless analogy and one sided and has no relevance to a WE and SW fight at all. If he wants to make it accurate give the pissed off human a shotgun and then its accurate comparison. My point in the relevant post earlier was that they have there different methods of killing something and in the end that thing is going to end up dead either way.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is because you are being either purposefully ignorant or stupid. He was making a point that they don't think rationally. Kharn single-handedly removed his own legion as a credible threat, or so it would seem. I don't see how his post doesn't make sense to you. It makes perfect sense to me.... in fact I would think it would make perfect sense to most rational human beings.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yet they still break thru the Palace Walls


 umm, i'm pretty sure the iron warriors broke the walls down and the World Eaters got the furthest simply because they went through first... anyone would win if they got a headstart if they were all at an even speed, (which even though they have different styles,) they are equal at getting through places at pretty much the same speed, ESPECIALLY when trying to fight through other astartes who will NOT run away (at the imperial palace anyway)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah im sorry how am i not making any sense? How am i lacking credibility? Please go into detail rather than just going "lol your an idiot" which is what your effectively doing. You still haven't adressed the fact that one minute your argument was that their anger is so dangerous as it can't be controlled as an emotion, but then the next moment you were saying if it can be controlled(despite the afore mentioned statement that it can't be) then it is even more dangerous. Then you slander me for using comparisons between animals and humans despite the fact that it was you who first started this comparions by comparing the WE beserker nature as human and the SW as animal bezerkers. Like i said go into detail instead of making yourself look so childish.

Im looking at Kharns entry right here, shall i quote it to you?

"The battle had to be before Skalathrax's long, frozen night drew in and killed victor and vanquished alike, Yet the World Eaters could gain no ground against their foes and were hurled back time after time by devastating sonic weapons. Kharn cursed his fellow warriors for abandoning the attack and seizing a flamer he torched the nearest buildings in a gesture of contempt. He cut down those that tried to stop him and marched into the glood, the serpents tongue of his flamer licking out again and again to consume the city. Through the mayhem strode Kharn, slaughtering all that he found, friend or foe. Anarchy engulfed the World Eaters ad they fought each other ans the Legion was irretriveably split into hundreds of warbands"

Seriously where are we not seeing this right? They couldn't win before nightfall in which they would all die, so using the most basic rational thought seeked shelter. Kharn then in his anger, rage and NON RATIONAL thinking decided to start burning the shelters down, killing his men and enemy at the same time and the World Eaters start to attack each other. How does this show rational and sound thought in any way shape or form?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Nope still doesnt. since apparantly u dont realize why i mentioned Kharn and the battle of Skalathrax or how they are related at all and it seems to me you havent read it too. Because then you would understand.  and why would a human fight a animal without a weapon cause thats a completely useless analogy and one sided and has no relevance to a WE and SW fight at all. If he wants to make it accurate give the pissed off human a shotgun and then its accurate comparison. My point in the relevant post earlier was that they have there different methods of killing something and in the end that thing is going to end up dead either way.


Because you can't make a biased comparison like that. We are talking about which rage/beserker state will win out. Can human emotional anger win without adding superior weaponry and advantages into the equation. Or will the animals instinctual and emotionless beserker attitude still win out. If we have the human armed with superior technology then it is now a biased and unfair comparison as we know that the SW and WE are going to be armed in much the same way. A comparison needs to bear resemblance to what you are comparing it too.

How is giving the human a weapon making it more accurate, to make it accurate the WE would now need to be armed whereas the SW is unarmed. You;ve changed the entire dynamic of the fight by arming one side without arming the other.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yeah im sorry how am i not making any sense? How am i lacking credibility? Please go into detail rather than just going "lol your an idiot" which is what your effectively doing. You still haven't adressed the fact that one minute your argument was that their anger is so dangerous as it can't be controlled as an emotion, but then the next moment you were saying if it can be controlled(despite the afore mentioned statement that it can't be) then it is even more dangerous. Then you slander me for using comparisons between animals and humans despite the fact that it was you who first started this comparions by comparing the WE beserker nature as human and the SW as animal bezerkers. Like i said go into detail instead of making yourself look so childish.
> 
> I did compare WE berzerker nature as human anger for they are human. But i was comparing SW to animal berzerker because their traits are like animals But ARE NOT ANIMALS themselves for they are still human. So your comparison between a human vs any animal is fraught with inaccuracies because the difference between a human fighting a crazed rat is different from a human fighting a Elephant. The human will kill the rat, but might die to a elephant barehanded. Every animal is different with different characteristics. Sure there innate instincts and killing nature may be the same but different physically. A human vs wolf would be the best comparison if you were to do one. Human vs animal comparison is also biased in the fact that animals have weapons to in the form of claws, jaws with sharp teeth and other attribute unique to certain animals. So why a human not having a shotgun would not make it a fairer playground?
> 
> ...


Anger when heightened to such extents that it cannot be controlled through conscious effort to suppress it can throw someone into a hostile crazed state which anything can happen thus the unpredictably = dangerious. 

But when a will strong enough to suppress his anger can use that anger to make him more effective in ways far beyond his normal capacity. Thus making him highly dangerous and depending on the person violent. Stated in my post earlier when i posted a link on anger to support my argument ( which you most likely havent even bothered) 

"Anger is "an emotional state that varies in intensity from mild irritation to intense fury and rage," according to Charles Spielberger, PhD, a psychologist who specializes in the study of anger. Like other emotions, it is accompanied by physiological and biological changes; when you get angry, your heart rate and blood pressure go up, as do the levels of your energy hormones, adrenaline, and noradrenaline."

I happily concede thou since no relevant point is being made and i'm running out of steam (no one seams to want to defend the WE so i'm alone and getting double-teamed isnt doing it for me). It would seem my views are biased also ( who isnt biased these days?) 
so merely to end this:

SW maybe trump WE
Angron definately beats Russ. hands down. xD


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Angron definately beats Russ. hands down. xD


.......Why?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Beast Savagery is a different category from human savagery as there is no emotional influence and more instinctive in nature for animals. When wolves go berserk they are aggressive and dangerous but they do not feel anything when they are and is more an innate response to a threat not a over escalation of adrenaline and anger like humans experience


Well from this you pretty much summised that the WE have human savagery and the SW have beast savagery. Which is where most of this stemmed from. The SW have human savagery then by your recent post, so why is their savagery any less? Making oneself more angry doesn't make you more dangerous, against a non combatant sure, but against another highly trained warrior, not so much.

I read all about the anger things you posted. But the World Eaters can't control their anger, it says so right in the codex.

And with regards to Kharn, its still not rational thought. No one thinking rationally is going to think that salughtering your own men will make them fight and to for the legion to then implode in on itself rather than just all gangfuck Kharn isn't rational thought either. Mandathrax ill give you shows a degree of rational thinking, but its still very basic, and the moment they still go for quite a reckless and potentially suicidal charge in the end anyway, and the whole incident is rounded off by Kharn killing more of his troops again


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Look at their origins. Angron is a primarch GLADIATOR. What do gladiators do? They are specialists in 1 on 1 hand to hand combat. Very little else. What are we talking about? Basically a gladiatorial combat between a specialist and an non specialist with the specialist doing what he does best. Angron would triumph. Also where is it written that russ is the anti primarch primarch? The wolves are anti psyker/sorcerer specialists. No help against the WE.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

russ all over angron boom


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Space Wolves aren't exactly pysker specialists, they just happen to hate excessive use of it or anything that isn't fenrisian power. They were renowned for being good in combat. And Russ was raised in the wild by fricking wolves, not just regular wolves either, massive wolves(which may have alot more too them from the saying "there are no wolves on Fenris") He is without a doubt one of the best brawlers of the primarchs, up there with the other big melee monsters


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## For-The-Warmaster (Nov 26, 2010)

1. Space wolves. Yes the WE's are great CC fighters but unless angron gets control of his bloodthirsty warrior's (and keep kharn as a last resort) he might win. He may be a primarch of wrath and blood but he is a good tactician. You have to remember that when he escaped the gladiator arena with a small army of gladiators and was able to finnd a secure location. He was assaulted many times by great armies why his army slowy became more tired and hungry. He was able to old because of his tactics not going bezerk and killing everything. Still i put my money on SW's

2. Okay thats hard. A well trained gladiator or a cunning proud warrior the moment he escaped his pod at fenrus. Probably a tie. When the other dies the remaing primarch will die later due horrific wounds. Or he gets knocked out and his larman cells heal him.


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## Sonicsucks23 (Apr 12, 2020)

Didnt angron and his legion best russ, in combat no less already? I give it to them but if russ and his kin have time to prep they when since the world eaters always job to well planned attacks. In a straight one vs one, they are unrivaled.


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## Sonicsucks23 (Apr 12, 2020)

Angron, cause hes the unrivaled combat king. And he best russ.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would say that Russ and the Wolves were the only ones of the two with the brutality and yet maintenance of their force. A grin and WE were trying to slam and die. At full force pre heresy, I would say that maybe the world eaters and Angron could have anhilated any legion. But they would have been nothing after. They loved to kill but cared nothing about growing or even caring about their legion.


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