# Serpent Shield



## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

hello folks

regarding the Serpent Shield , the round it fires it is treated as a weapon, can it then be destroyed with a weapon destroyed result in the phase it fires!


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

No.
The Serpent Shield isn't a Weapon , it's Eldar Vehicle Equipment.
In the Eldar Shooting Phase it can be deactivated in order to Shoot, it Shoots and is then an inactive Serpent Shield until the start of its following Turn.

(Codex Eldar p.67)


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

kind of overpowerd if you ask me! but will the scatter lasers laser lock work on serpent shield then, since its not a weapon ?


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Yes.
For the purposes of the shot "Treat this as a Hull Mounted Weapon pointing forward".

Read the entry in the Codex.

You can imagine it as a ship plowing through the sea.
There's a build up of a wave of water before the bow.
They are able to fire that wave and as soon as it's fired, its gone.
They then start building up another Wave.
It's not one of the ship's weapons, but it'll still capsize you.

Difference is, it's a "Bow-wave of raw force" that "blasts the enemy from their feet".


It's why the WAVE Serpent got its name many, many years ago.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Bah, if only it was a 1-use weapon. 

Regarding the nomenclature, your explanation is very good. I hadn't even considered that, but in my defense I don't know anything about Eldar.

However, I think "wave" would be accurate describing the shield shot... if it didn't shoot across the damn board. More like a freakin' islander-annihilating tsunami!


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## w0lfgang7 (Feb 10, 2013)

There's actually been some debate about this since the entry in the codex reads, "(treat this as a HULL-MOUNTED WEAPON pointing forward):" [emphasis added]

Since it's treated as a weapon, then YES, it can be destroyed. The question then becomes does the Serpent lose its shield also. But, since you only treat the shield as a weapon during the shooting phase, the wording almost makes it sound like two pieces of gear. One that makes the shield, and one that shoots it.

I don't think that I've seen a conclusive decision made either way. So best to work it out before the game begins. Perhaps cut the difference and say that the part that shoots the shield can be destroyed, but that the part that makes the shield is separate and can't be destroyed. A little give and take to make everyone happy and mad all at the same time.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I think this will be FAQed with the next update.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> More like a freakin' islander-annihilating tsunami!


Yeah, D6+1 shot Autocannons for over 100pts are really terrifying! :victory:


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Haha, it was less about their power as it is their range, in regards to an above poster. A "wave" just doesn't seem to cut it.

I've only ever faced 2 Wave Serpents in my friend's Eldar army. I've lost 4/5 games to him, but most casualties weren't from the shields. Didn't really bother me. Now, if he had brought 4 or 5 of the damn things with him...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, D6+1 shot Autocannons for over 100pts are really terrifying! :victory:


When they're twin linked BS4 Ignoring Cover and Pinning and accompanied by 7 S6 shots in the same volley and there's 4-6 of them doing it at once then yes, they can be kind of terrifying. 

At least, that's the look I see on opponents faces when I do it. Either terror or extreme hatred. One of the two.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

venomlust said:


> A "wave" just doesn't seem to cut it.


Funny that, it seemed to cut it back in White Dwarf issue 144 dated December 1991, which is my first memory of the Wave Serpent.
Albeit these Rules were for Space Marine (Read Epic) it gives you some idea of how it has been TONED DOWN over the last twenty-two years.

Still, perhaps you know best.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, I'm impressed you went out of your way there. 

I feel like a silly comment may have been taken a little too seriously though, I'll try to actually be funny or clever next time.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I'd settle for a version of those Rules any day of the week!!!

Scaling up. the average Range would be around 3.5 metres.
The distance between the rear ends of the wave would be around 16".
Automatically pushing Enemy Units to EXACTLY where you want them to be and effectively giving you the ability to corral them prior to shooting them to bits 
(And you thought a Daemon Prince with Lash Whips unfair?). 
And a 4+ chance of a Hit as well!
Impenetrable to any and all Weapons and Psychic Attacks.

And all we've got now is a lousy 1+d6 St 7 Shots and you're the ones moaning...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Pssyche, you might need to chill out a little bit. It's not like people were whining or bitching in any way that was annoying. You sound like you're jumping down their throat, whether that's the intent or not, and I'm sure they don't appreciate it.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

And there I was thinking that irony wasn't lost on the internet
I couldn't be more chilled if I tried.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

The initial 2nd edition rules for the Serpent were pretty fucked as well. It DID have that template on it and pushed stuff around. Against walkers it auto-damaged their legs. 

Ah, Armorcast how awesome you were!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> When they're twin linked BS4 Ignoring Cover and Pinning and accompanied by 7 S6 shots in the same volley and there's 4-6 of them doing it at once then yes, they can be kind of terrifying.
> 
> At least, that's the look I see on opponents faces when I do it. Either terror or extreme hatred. One of the two.


Today's News - good shooting is good, written by the guy with two thumbs


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

My objection is it's use as an anti-aircraft weapon. Which I encountered last week. I don't mind a wave burning along the ground, it's good. Knocking aircraft from the skies seems to be inappropriate to the fluff. And it is able to snap fire.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If it's shooting airplanes, it's not killing ground targets, and Str7 is bad anti-air anyway. Wave Serpents are solid choices, but they're only solid choices. Not fabulously game-breaking, not even Heldrake-level of autopick. Solid choices.

Although yeah, it makes absolutely no fluff sense. I'm going to be quiet now, this isn't a Tactics thread after all


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

STR 7 no jink save is rather effective against aircraft.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Creon said:


> My objection is it's use as an anti-aircraft weapon. Which I encountered last week. I don't mind a wave burning along the ground, it's good. Knocking aircraft from the skies seems to be inappropriate to the fluff. And it is able to snap fire.



I've lost my heldrake to serpents shield more often than regular guns. 

And they're beyond a 'solid' pick. They're very much so auto include. The difference is is that you can still make a good eldar list without wave serpents because the rest of the codex is ridiculously good also, while other books with auto includes like chaos have no other good options outside of their drakes.

And to be fair the only thing I consider to be broken about them is the ignore cover part. Without that they'd be pretty manageable, even if they're a transport with more guns than a battle tank and more obnoxious to remove than a land raider.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

A wave serpent with TL scatter lasers will on average do 3 hull points to a:12 aircraft on the 33% chance the wave hits. That's pretty good for AA.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

How are you getting 3HP from 4 Shots, Twin Linked at S6 (6s to Glance per hit) and an average of 4.5 shots at S7 that are only conditionally Twin Linked and need a 5+ to deal damage?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Scatter laser, twin linked=8 dice( 4 twin linked), average of 1.5 hits 4x shots at 6 to hit, twin linked (scatter laser hit), 1.5 hits. An additional 1.5 hits from the Shuriken Cannon upgrade. 3 hits at str:6, giving a 1 in 3 chance of the 6 being rolled, .33 glances. 33% chance of hitting with the Twin-linked shield. If it hits, 4.5 hits on average, 33% chance of glance. 1.75 glances, round to 2. That's 2.33 hull points on average, very close to 3. 

I don't believe penetrations are necessary against aircraft, they just crash when you glance them enough.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you're going to round, then you need to round to the closest number, which is 2. And for that the Serpent needs to have the Flyer in their front arc, have all their weapons intact, and be within 24". Even then, all it takes is a tiny statistical anomaly (missing with the Scatter Laser) to ensue that they basically do nothing. And for this you're not clearing off infantry or light vehicles instead with the Serpent, and leaving your shield down.

Serpents CAN do AA in a pinch, I agree, but they're far from good at it compared to, say, a Storm Talon. If you're routinely losing Heldrakes to them (5++, IWND, and Vector Striking the Serpents before they can shoot) then I have to question if you're using your flyers correctly.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Serpents CAN do AA in a pinch, I agree, but they're far from good at it compared to, say, a Storm Talon. If you're routinely losing Heldrakes to them (5++, IWND, and Vector Striking the Serpents before they can shoot) then I have to question if you're using your flyers correctly.


And Sethis just won the thread.

Wave Serpents are far, far from overpowered. They're not-quite Annihilation Barges (in toughness or armament), and nobody cries cheese at those despite their main gun averaging six hits, not maybe-rolling-high-and-getting-six-shots. True, Serpents also have the Scatter Laser, but the Barge is cheaper, much better AA, better-armoured (AV13 is a big improvement over 12 as it takes you out of the 'reasonable target' zone for Autocannons and Missile Launchers, but AV11 on yhe rear is just as important, making you essentially invulnerable to Krak Grenades and making Orks/Tyranids/those other armies work a lot harder to crack you).

Multiple shots with Skyfire, Interceptor and Tank Hunters are the only good Str7 AA. Oh, and Sabre Platforms, but that's only because you can happily bring 9 of them.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

How exactly do you vector strike something hugging the back of the table because it has board long range..? I could say the same thing about the eldar guy bringing his serpents within 24 of your table edge by t2/3 being a misplay of the serpent. All I see them do is sit back with a minimal scoring unit blasting away happily with a 3++ cover save until mid/end game when they move out to drop their scoring payload. 

And please, IWND rarely happens. I think in all my games combined with princes, forgefiends and heldrakes it's proc'd 3-4 times.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

In order to take a heldrake down, the serpent would need to roll a 6 to hit, a 6 to penetrate and a 6 to destroy it. A 5++ and IWND is better than hoping for 3 6's.
The Heldrake can vector strike up to 36" (IIRC)
If your opponant with wave serpent shields wants to twin link his shots, the range on the scatter laser is 36".
It also depends on the objectives - if they've brought serpent spam and minimal troops, they'll have to send something forwards to try to take your objectives.
D6+1 ST7 shots that hit on a 6 shouldn't be anywhere near enough to down a heldrake unless you're blindingly unlucky.

At closer range with scatter lasers, he needs to roll a natural 6 on one of the lasers 4 shots (which only glance on a 6) then roll d6+1 twinlinked shots at you on st 7. Which is worse than a quad gun. Given the average is roll is 3-4 on a D6 that'd be 5 shots fired withon an average roll, then maybe 1 or 2 6's to hit. Then he needs to roll 6's again to penetrate.
Then the Drake gets a 5++ inv and it will not die.
Add to that he'd need to roll a straight 6 again to destoy the drake...

I'd be far more worried about a Dark Reaper Exarch on a quad gun/Icarus Lascannon. That will hurt.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Moved to Tactics...

enjoy the discussion! :victory:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> How exactly do you vector strike something hugging the back of the table because it has board long range..?


Well Scatters are 36", not table, and the chin cannon is 24" so that's another 3 shots you don't need to worry about. And you simply fly forwards until you are almost on their table edge then use your 90 degree turn to fly along it if you want to Vector Strike.



Ravner298 said:


> All I see them do is sit back with a minimal scoring unit blasting away happily with a 3++ cover save until mid/end game when they move out to drop their scoring payload.


Funny, I would call THAT misplaying Serpents. With a minimal squad of DA, Serpents are setting you back 195pts per unit. For 4 S6 and D6+1 S7 shots. Hardly a great deal. You'd be much better served with 10 Guardians and a Weapon Platform battle-focusing out of LoS after popping off their HWT shots turns 1-3 before embarking and moving forwards turn 4 and 5.

The Serpents themselves should be flanking and advancing to get side armour shots against most armies.


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## Dildozer (Sep 27, 2013)

well after reading this thread a bit and i have to say this, while one or two waveserpents wont be effective at taking down flyers like helldrakes when people are using lots of them they can be quite effective at focusing flyers down. And while a chaos player can only bring 3 drakes an eldar player can bring as many serpents as he has points to in most cases. in 1500 points i wrote up a list that had 5 serpents, and 2 prisms in it and i was putting wraithguard in a few of the serpents as well. in 1500 points someone could easily bring upwards to 7 waveserpents while the most drakes anyone could ever take is 3. serpents definitely aren't as good anti flyer as say the crimson hunter is but they do pump out a shit ton of shots and can deal with most vehicles av 12 and under. as for the vector strike deal i couldn't see the drakes being able to do that to a competent eldar player on the turn they came in. drakes are awesome but they cant hold a candle to a heavily mechanized eldar list. i truly think the serpent shield is over the top due to its utility, damage, and range. however im not going to complain about it because eldar are awesome and the serpent is one of the cooler models in the codex imo.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dildozer said:


> well after reading this thread a bit and i have to say this, while one or two waveserpents wont be effective at taking down flyers like helldrakes when people are using lots of them they can be quite effective at focusing flyers down. And while a chaos player can only bring 3 drakes an eldar player can bring as many serpents as he has points to in most cases. in 1500 points i wrote up a list that had 5 serpents, and 2 prisms in it and i was putting wraithguard in a few of the serpents as well. in 1500 points someone could easily bring upwards to 7 waveserpents while the most drakes anyone could ever take is 3. serpents definitely aren't as good anti flyer as say the crimson hunter is but they do pump out a shit ton of shots and can deal with most vehicles av 12 and under. as for the vector strike deal i couldn't see the drakes being able to do that to a competent eldar player on the turn they came in. drakes are awesome but they cant hold a candle to a heavily mechanized eldar list. i truly think the serpent shield is over the top due to its utility, damage, and range. however im not going to complain about it because eldar are awesome and the serpent is one of the cooler models in the codex imo.


That army you made. What happens when it fights Land Raiders, or Deathwing, or Mephiston, or tri-Raven? You will do badly against all of those, would be my guess, presuming that both players are of comparable skill with their army (or, in the case of Deathwing, lucky, because Deathwing either fail more saves than they should and lose, or pass more than they should and win).


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

The thread necro brought this to my attention... I just want to correct the bad math let through here... there are some items skewed in favor one way or the other, but the end result is way off. Sorry if no one cares, but once I actually think about it and see it's wrong, I can't let it go...



Creon said:


> Scatter laser, twin linked=8 dice( 4 twin linked), average of 1.5 hits 4x shots at 6 to hit, twin linked (scatter laser hit), 1.5 hits.


First, 1.5 is a high number for 8 dice, it'd be 1.33. Second, it's not 8 dice. If you get a hit or 2 in the first set of 4, it's down to 6 or 7 dice. I can't math that without spending more time than I care to, so I'll ignore it and stick with 8 = 1.33.



Creon said:


> An additional 1.5 hits from the Shuriken Cannon upgrade.


The cannon is 3 shots, so even using the full 6 (which is just as wrong as 8 above, but oh well), we add exactly 1 to our average.

Besides keeping the full 8 rolls for scatter and 6 rolls for cannon, AND assuming we're in range for the cannon, we're ALSO assuming the scatter laser did hit - so still heavily in favor of Serpent OP argument.



Creon said:


> 3 hits at str:6, giving a 1 in 3 chance of the 6 being rolled, .33 glances.


average of 2.33 hits, even rounded up. However I'm not sure where you got your 1 in 3, even 2.33 hits has a .39 glancing average.

Note that in the real world, all these <.5 will *normally* round down. So, "odds are" that your scatter laser and shuriken cannon won't cause any damage on any given shot, but they may cause a couple over the course of a whole game spent shooting air.



Creon said:


> 33% chance of hitting with the Twin-linked shield. If it hits, 4.5 hits on average, 33% chance of glance. 1.75 glances, round to 2. That's 2.33 hull points on average, very close to 3.


This is the biggest oopsy. The shield fires 4.5 shots on average, not 4.5 HITS! That means 9 shots twin-linked (Not really, as before... damnit I'm gonna figure out the proper math for that later today), for an average of 1.5 hits.

.25 glances

.25 Pens

Grand total, even rounding up for TL weapons and assuming the initial scatter laser hits, the Serpent will do an average of .25+.25+.39= .89 HP to an av 12 flier.

It's worth shooting at air if no better target is available, but at ~145 points it's not exactly an efficient AA.

PS. I've also ignored Penetration table and the fact that the flier could get cover saves vs. the scatter and cannon shots. Still, incomplete math > incorrect math.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Strongest list I'm looking at so far is an Iyanden based one, for the Wraithknight as Warlord (fuck off, free VP's).

Farseer
Farseer
Guardian Defenders (x20); x2 Bright Lances
Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Scatter Laser. Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field
Guardian Defenders (x20); x2 Bright Lances
Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Scatter Laser. Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field
Jetbikes (x3)
Jetbikes (x3)
Rangers (x5)
Warp Spiders (x7)
Warp Spiders (x7)
Wraithknight
Wraithknight

This is one I've found on the net, and cannot think of a way to beat it without matching or Riptides. Jetbikes for late game capture, Wave Serpents for AA, Warp Spiders for Terminator munching, Defenders and Snipers for sitting on an objective, Wraithknights be wraithknights.


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## Dildozer (Sep 27, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> That army you made. What happens when it fights Land Raiders, or Deathwing, or Mephiston, or tri-Raven? You will do badly against all of those, would be my guess, presuming that both players are of comparable skill with their army (or, in the case of Deathwing, lucky, because Deathwing either fail more saves than they should and lose, or pass more than they should and win).


the list i was thinking of with 5 serpents in 1500 had firedragons in a few of the serpents, in fact i have a list with 5 serpents at 1500 that have 2 units of wraithguard in them which would decimate deathwing and/or mephiston/ landraiders easily. even when spammed ive never had a problem with raiders and most eldar players dont in general if they build their lists right. the list could have problems with fliers but with guide/prescience wraith guard can bring them down in a pinch.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Could you post your list please?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dildozer said:


> 2 units of wraithguard in them which would decimate deathwing and/or mephiston/ landraiders easily.


Someone's obviously fighting the theory of Mephiston here...

Because 10 Wraithguard are not bringing Mephiston down. And Deathwing will PLEAD with you to take Wraithguard. Wraith units are absolutely ideal for the Deathwing player.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

10 wraithguard will kill Mephiston - if they get chance to shoot. I've done it before. 10 x St10 + Ap2 + instant death on a 6 will take him down. 

However, if the Wraithguard catch him, the BA player is doing it wrong. More than likely, you'll get to snapfire against him as he charges with his magic jumppack and hope for 6's. If you fail he kills your squad.

Whats even funnier is Mephiston against a wraithknight - it takes 1 punch most of the time for him to kill it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> 10 wraithguard will kill Mephiston - if they get chance to shoot. I've done it before. 10 x St10 + Ap2 + instant death on a 6 will take him down.
> 
> However, if the Wraithguard catch him, the BA player is doing it wrong. More than likely, you'll get to snapfire against him as he charges with his magic jumppack and hope for 6's. If you fail he kills your squad.
> 
> Whats even funnier is Mephiston against a wraithknight - it takes 1 punch most of the time for him to kill it.


Exactly. Mephiston, out of cover, being shot by 10 Wraithguard, will die, but as you said it's a very rare day that happens. I never, ever let him into enemy line of sight, let alone 12" range.

I too killed a Wraithknight in one punch from him :victory:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

It's me on the recieving end of him normally :laugh:

I once lost a 2k game with my chaos to him - I was running melee Khorn. He just stood in the middle of my army making ninja noises while I threw the kitchen sink at him. When the sink didn't work, I started taking Abaddon.

So by that rationale - Abaddon>Kitchen Sink :laugh: 
And the moral is no-one should ever underestimate Mephiston. He might not have an invulnerable, but he's easy to hide, fast and lethal against the right targets.

I once witnessed him clear every single piece of heavy support from our opponants army in a 4k game. He took 1 wound doing it.

Red for the Red god!


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## Dildozer (Sep 27, 2013)

you know what, im not going to post my list for you fools to nit pick it to death. tbh mephiston is powerful but he can be killed and all it takes is some careful maneuvering on the part of the other player. if ur 250 point character wants to hide so be it ill just keep my distance and the moment he decides to take on sompin ill have another unit in position to take him down. it wasnt my intention to get into debate about what can take out serpents or wraithguard or watever. i merely stated that wave serpents as they are now are incredibly powerful for their points cost and can dish out a ton of shooting while maintaining speed and durability. i say that and u guys start saying shit about how mephiston can wreck waveserpent spam when its simply not true. im not going to debate the matter anymore i will simply agree to disagree and leave it at that, if you guys want to continue by all means but it will prove nothing except that ur egos are as big as this post is becoming. good day gentlemen "lights a pipe and walks away"


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Whilst you've finished discussing the pros and cons of the Wave Serpent, could you answer me this please.
How many Wave Serpents do you have in your collection?

For your information, I own three ready to play, although I have never used more than two in a Standard Game but I have used three in Apocalypse.
I also have an unmade one, still in its box, that I got a couple of years ago in one of the Heresy Online Model Swap/Secret Santa's.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I have 4 wave serpents.

I've used all 4 in 3k plus, but in a normal game I'll take a couple. If there was a way to survive podding flamers without them, I probably wouldn't take any.I don't own a single guardian, so I can't really bubble wrap. I would much prefer taking more aspect warriors.
Hopefully, a biel-tan supplement will come along at some point...


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Pretty similar to me then, Gret79.

To be honest though, my question was more for Dildozer.

It's all well and good him shouting the odds about how he's got this list and that list, but it's another thing to be able to back it up and put the models on the table and play them.

I for one don't believe he's got the amount of Wave Serpents he was throwing around and his lack of an answer I'll take as proof that he hasn't.
Anyone can sit at home writing lists all day long.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I possess four ready to play, an additional one painted but damaged, needs TLC to be playable. I possess three others in boxes, unbuilt.


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## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

Mephiston rocks :biggrin:
I own 3 proper serpants and a load more either bad condition or falcon with converted guns and the fin parts.
Although I only played them once and that was really a jesters list to test it out.
Now returning I've got into ghost warriors.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dildozer said:


> you know what, im not going to post my list for you fools to nit pick it to death. tbh mephiston is powerful but he can be killed and all it takes is some careful maneuvering on the part of the other player. if ur 250 point character wants to hide so be it ill just keep my distance and the moment he decides to take on sompin ill have another unit in position to take him down. it wasnt my intention to get into debate about what can take out serpents or wraithguard or watever. i merely stated that wave serpents as they are now are incredibly powerful for their points cost and can dish out a ton of shooting while maintaining speed and durability. i say that and u guys start saying shit about how mephiston can wreck waveserpent spam when its simply not true. im not going to debate the matter anymore i will simply agree to disagree and leave it at that, if you guys want to continue by all means but it will prove nothing except that ur egos are as big as this post is becoming. good day gentlemen "lights a pipe and walks away"


So your army is good and Mephiston is bad because any good player can beat Mephiston?

Well your Serpent Spam is shit and you should feel terrible because it only wins when it faces shit players. And you can say it's really powerful but that's simply not true, although I'm not going to explain why. Mephiston is incredibly powerful for his points cost and dishes out tonnes of board control and melee presence.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> So your army is good and Mephiston is bad because any good player can beat Mephiston?
> 
> Well your Serpent Spam is shit and you should feel terrible because it only wins when it faces shit players. And you can say it's really powerful but that's simply not true, although I'm not going to explain why. Mephiston is incredibly powerful for his points cost and dishes out tonnes of board control and melee presence.


Against anyone who ignores cover, or moves fast into CC, Serpents wont do much except lose you the game. The critical point is losing 2-3 serpents a turn, once you start sustaining those types of losses its over if you heavily invested in the Eldar's skimmer tanks.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Ragewind said:


> Against anyone who ignores cover, or moves fast into CC, Serpents wont do much except lose you the game.


I'd strongly disagree. Tau ignore cover left right and center, and still lose regularly to Eldar. Likewise Daemons.

At the end of the day you're turning Pens into Glances on a 2+ which means that something like a Multimelta takes three damaging shots to kill you with almost NO chance for a single shot to take you out. That makes you about twice as survivable than a Land Raider (which is slightly harder to penetrate, but doesn't have Fields).

Armies that move fast into CC are either light infantry hordes (which Serpents eat all day long) or deathstar jetbikes, in which case they can only kill 1 serpent per turn, and then spend the next turn killing the unit inside. Taking account getting into position, a Jetseer council (for example) will only drop two Serpents in a game, which hurts, but it's ~400pts of the enemy army doing nothing else, which is acceptable.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think you mean pens into glances. And you're assuming a system that doesn't get behind your Wave Serpents. Like, oh, Deep striking or a drop pod. Wave Serpents are VERY good. They're not unstoppable, but they're Very Good. Can they be stopped? I'm pretty sure they can. Is it something you have to think about and plan? Yes. Is it best to be in HTH combat with one? Again, yes.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Creon said:


> I think you mean pens into glances.


 
Yeah he most definitely does - glances into pens would be a monumentally crap piece of wargear to take :laugh:

Second only to demonic possession on a csm transport - :scratchhead:


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I'd strongly disagree. Tau ignore cover left right and center, and still lose regularly to Eldar. Likewise Daemons.
> 
> At the end of the day you're turning Glances into Pens on a 2+ which means that something like a Multimelta takes three damaging shots to kill you with almost NO chance for a single shot to take you out. That makes you about twice as survivable than a Land Raider (which is slightly harder to penetrate, but doesn't have Fields).
> 
> Armies that move fast into CC are either light infantry hordes (which Serpents eat all day long) or deathstar jetbikes, in which case they can only kill 1 serpent per turn, and then spend the next turn killing the unit inside. Taking account getting into position, a Jetseer council (for example) will only drop two Serpents in a game, which hurts, but it's ~400pts of the enemy army doing nothing else, which is acceptable.


I operate under the assumption that you will never get pen'ed. Meaning any unit that ignores cover and can put 3 glancing hits on a AV 12 will ruin them. If the Tau are putting Ignores Cover onto units with Burst Cannons then of course they won't do much. Stick that on some Tank Hunter Broadsides or (dare i say) Dark Reapers and suddenly the tanks become a liability. 

Something fast and can get into CC, Beast Masters, Harlequins, any Biker with a Power/Chain Fist, Most flying MCs, Wraithknights, etc etc. These units can easily kill a Serpent and handle getting shot and charged by the units inside often enough. So what if you get shot/charged, the point is to destroy the transport.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Creon said:


> I think you mean pens into glances.


Fixed, thanks. 



Creon said:


> And you're assuming a system that doesn't get behind your Wave Serpents. Like, oh, Deep striking or a drop pod.


If you allow a Drop Pod or Deep Striking unit into your rear arc without at least a 4+ cover between you and them (and more often, impossible to draw LoS) then you deserve everything you get.



Ragewind said:


> I operate under the assumption that you will never get pen'ed. Meaning any unit that ignores cover and can put 3 glancing hits on a AV 12 will ruin them. If the Tau are putting Ignores Cover onto units with Burst Cannons then of course they won't do much. Stick that on some Tank Hunter Broadsides or (dare i say) Dark Reapers and suddenly the tanks become a liability.
> 
> Something fast and can get into CC, Beast Masters, Harlequins, any Biker with a Power/Chain Fist, Most flying MCs, Wraithknights, etc etc. These units can easily kill a Serpent and handle getting shot and charged by the units inside often enough. So what if you get shot/charged, the point is to destroy the transport.


Name me something in the Eldar codex that the above units WOULDN'T ruin that is a better choice than a Serpent in a list against those armies. You're proposing that Serpents will "lose you the game" and are "a liability". I'd like to hear what you would be buying with the points instead without list tailoring. And please, tell me you were joking about Harlequins being able to handle getting shot by 10+ Catapults...


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I've never played on a board where you can get "impossible to see" LOS between a Wave Serpent and it's rear arc. My gaming area doesn't play with thick ruins or intact buildings much and that's in general the only thing that I would imagine blocking los totally. I don't see them as a liability or a game winner. They are a very strong unit in a codex of very strong units. They are very flexible, which is what I like about them.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Fixed, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stealth and Shrouding isn't enough to survive those hits? Really? A 2+ cover save will lose very few models on a volley like that, and if you are using Guardians or Avengers to achieve those numbers they will probably fall to whats left of the squad if you can't handle it. (assuming 10 DA's you will wound them 10 times on average and they will lose 2 models)

You can spend those points on whatever you like, am I telling you to not take serpents? No, I am saying don't spam them and rely on that save to make you lazy on positioning.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Creon said:


> I've never played on a board where you can get "impossible to see" LOS between a Wave Serpent and it's rear arc. My gaming area doesn't play with thick ruins or intact buildings much and that's in general the only thing that I would imagine blocking los totally. I don't see them as a liability or a game winner. They are a very strong unit in a codex of very strong units. They are very flexible, which is what I like about them.


That's what the table edge is for. Park your Serpent's ass roughly 3" from the edge and it's impossibly to DS behind. Also, a lack of complete LoS blocking terrain is a HUGE issue that your gaming area could do with addressing, because it _massively_ benefits shooting armies, and they're already more than strong enough as it is, they don't need any further help. Trust me, you _will_ notice the difference if you add two to three large pieces of solid cover to your tabletops.



Ragewind said:


> Stealth and Shrouding isn't enough to survive those hits? Really? A 2+ cover save will lose very few models on a volley like that, and if you are using Guardians or Avengers to achieve those numbers they will probably fall to whats left of the squad if you can't handle it. (assuming 10 DA's you will wound them 10 times on average and they will lose 2 models)


Firstly, if they just assaulted you, exactly what cover are they using? Secondly, that's only DE harlies (if they haven't been FAQ'd yet). Current gen Eldar Harlies roll to see using 2D6x2, which you can safely ignore with Catapults, resulting in 10 wounds or 6.6 casualties. Guardians and Avengers are identical offensively apart from a 6" range gap, and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in combat, so even 5 Avengers will get 10 more attacks against the Harlies, dropping 2 more and a chance for Overwatch to drop yet another. And that's even if they caught you (how?).



Ragewind said:


> You can spend those points on whatever you like, am I telling you to not take serpents? No, I am saying don't spam them and rely on that save to make you lazy on positioning.


No, you're saying in your previous posts that they are "a liability and will lose you the game" against armies that ignore cover or have fast assault elements. Word for word. That pretty much translates into "don't take them" in my view. If you meant to say "write balanced lists" or "play well" then I would have 100% agreed with you from the start, but that's not what you said.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

> Firstly, if they just assaulted you, exactly what cover are they using? Secondly, that's only DE harlies (if they haven't been FAQ'd yet). Current gen Eldar Harlies roll to see using 2D6x2, which you can safely ignore with Catapults, resulting in 10 wounds or 6.6 casualties. Guardians and Avengers are identical offensively apart from a 6" range gap, and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in combat, so even 5 Avengers will get 10 more attacks against the Harlies, dropping 2 more and a chance for Overwatch to drop yet another. And that's even if they caught you (how?).


Haha, I've tried to block the CE Harlies from my mind, its so bad now. Yea I would recommend allying in some Harlies in that case, the DE one's are clearly superior.



> No, you're saying in your previous posts that they are "a liability and will lose you the game" against armies that ignore cover or have fast assault elements. Word for word. That pretty much translates into "don't take them" in my view. If you meant to say "write balanced lists" or "play well" then I would have 100% agreed with you from the start, but that's not what you said.


They will, that's a fact. Against certain armies only of course, a balanced list would not fall against such a army but if you are taking like 6 Tanks, you will lose in that case. In other words don't spam them.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ragewind said:


> Haha, I've tried to block the CE Harlies from my mind, its so bad now. Yea I would recommend allying in some Harlies in that case, the DE one's are clearly superior.


Taking a Raider is fum! It actually works with Eldar, since you have a bunch of very tough hulls to hide it behind rather than more paper planes. Assaulting out of transports is one thing Dark Eldar can still do, even if it's a tiny countermeasure for the massive pile of fail that is the rest of the army.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Sethis said:


> and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in comba


Harlies still have better Init than other eldar troops. I6 on harlies, I5 on the troops (exarchs have I6)...they will still get shot to pieces...


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