# Custodian on the Vengeful Spirit?



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

On page 215 of Horus Rising, there is this quote, "The master bodyguard, a massive Astartes in gold custodes armor..." So was this a Custodian or just a normal Astartes in Custodian armor to represent his rank as 'Master Bodyguard'? 

If this was a Custodian, were they on every ship acting as bodyguards to the Masters of the Fleet? Why use a Custodian rather than Astartes? 

If these Custodians were present on every ship. surely the Custodians sent to watch Lorgar in First Heretic would have found him as a close ally. 

I would have also found it very interesting to show a fight scene against the Custodian on the Vengeful Spirit once Horus turned, they could have had a pretty awesome fight between the Custodian and Abaddon or even Horus himself. 

This actually brings another question to mind, surely they would have had Abaddon win such a fight, but could Abaddon have killed a Custodian? Based on how badass they were in First Heretic I would say that one Custodian would be able to take Abaddon.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't think that is a custodian, but I think there was a custodian.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I doubled checked in Abnett's "Blood Games" short story to check whether or not he capitalized custodes or not. Evidently he doesn't. So no easy answers there.

I have no direct proof, but I'm guessing he wasn't a custodes. We hear no particular mention of him ever again...and if he was truly Horus's bodyguard, he should have been around a bit more often while Horus was waging war on Murder and in the Interex debacle.

But who knows? Maybe he died on Murder.

That's what happened to all the custodes watching the Word Bearer's main fleet. They died in combat.


----------



## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

hailene said:


> That's what happened to all the custodes watching the Word Bearer's main fleet. They died in combat.


I thought they died in 'combat' being sacrificed on the feral world? (The first heretic)


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

It didn't sound like he was a bodyguard for Horus though, the book makes it sound like he is the bodyguard for the Master of the Fleet, who is a different character from Horus.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Dakingofchaos said:


> I thought they died in 'combat' being sacrificed on the feral world? (The first heretic)


One was sacrificed, Vendatha. Then Lorgar claimed he died in battle to the other four. The last four were killed straight up by the Gal Vorbok, not part of a ritual or anything.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

SoL Berzerker said:


> This actually brings another question to mind, surely they would have had Abaddon win such a fight, but could Abaddon have killed a Custodian? Based on how badass they were in First Heretic I would say that one Custodian would be able to take Abaddon.


Against most Custodians I think Abaddon would win quite easily. The ones sent to watch over Lorgar were elite even by the Custodes standard, especially Aquillon. So I wouldn't use them as a basis for all Custodes. I'm sure the likes of Amon would give him a very hard time, Valdor an equal fight, but 'normal' Custodes would probably lose. Abaddon was one of the most feared and respected Astartes across all the Legions during the Crusade.

Is it just _Horus Rising_, they appear in? Why do I seem to recall a mention of them in another novel on the ships, _Fulgrim_ or _Flight_ perhaps?



SoL Berzerker said:


> One was sacrificed, Vendatha. Then Lorgar claimed he died in battle to the other four. The last four were killed straight up by the Gal Vorbok, not part of a ritual or anything.


Well, Kalhin was killed by Incaradine.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Against most Custodians I think Abaddon would win quite easily. The ones sent to watch over Lorgar were elite even by the Custodes standard, especially Aquillon. So I wouldn't use them as a basis for all Custodes. I'm sure the likes of Amon would give him a very hard time, Valdor an equal fight, but 'normal' Custodes would probably lose. Abaddon was one of the most feared and respected Astartes across all the Legions during the Crusade.
> 
> Is it just _Horus Rising_, they appear in? Why do I seem to recall a mention of them in another novel on the ships, _Fulgrim_ or _Flight_ perhaps?
> 
> ...



I know it has been mentioned several times on the forums but I never remember, wasn't Valdor a sparring partner with Horus? I think Valdor would take Abaddon. 

I do not remember if Custodians are mentioned in that same context, I was just re-reading Horus Rising and noticed this.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Dakingofchaos said:


> thought they died in 'combat' being sacrificed on the feral world? (The first heretic)


No, you're thinking about the ones connected to the 303rd expedition (the one with Argel Tal and the Serrated Sun Chapter, and of those only one died on Cadia, Ven). The ones connected to the main Word Bearer's fleet were all lost. That's why Xaphen was so keen on keeping the Custodes attached to the 303rd fleet alive--to utilize their blood as a catalyst for magic against the Emperor.



SoL Berzerker said:


> I know it has been mentioned several times on the forums but I never remember, wasn't Valdor a sparring partner with Horus?


This has been quoted...but no one has been able to find the source.

It's probably some rumor that got circulated on the internet.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Against most Custodians I think Abaddon would win quite easily.


I must beg to disagree Angel. Custodians are the Elite of the Elite, and I believe only the "Death Watch/Grey Knights," are said to even be marginally close to their fighting capabilities. One Custodian is said to have been worth 100 Astartes in battle (First Heretic), but I will grant you that we, the readers, really don't know enough about them to say exactly who and what these elite warriors are. 

However one thing is quite clear. While they are certainly not invincible, as SOL Bezerker nicely pointed out; they certainly don't die easily. They also have the best equiptment the Imperium can offer an Astartes; in both personal gear, weapons, and vehicles. As such they are prepared to take on fellow Astartes on the level of Abaddon himself and win. Horus was a Primarch, and man great fightings (including a fellow Primarch brother) fellow before his claws so Idk an Adeptus Custodes would have been able to fight him. I personally think First Heretic really made a vunerable misconception about the Custodians who, IMHO, could have easily killed Abaddon, Kharn, and other future Chaos champions in a 1v1.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> One Custodian is said to have been worth 100 Astartes in battle


Source?

The Word Bearers show some disdain for the Custodians after watching them fight.

The Possessed Marines also take out a group of Custodians, losing one for one (admittedly the Custodians were out numbered from the start).


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

hailene said:


> The Possessed Marines also take out a group of Custodians, losing one for one


Except, they aren't _normal_ marines so it's not a real comparison.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Except, they aren't normal marines so it's not a real comparison.


Am I to assume that all those Possessed Marines are worth 50-100 regular marines?


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hailene said:


> Am I to assume that all those Possessed Marines are worth 50-100 regular marines?


If i remember correctly, when Lorgar decided to create a huge number of possessed space marines his ratio of death to success was about 15 to 1, so no, not 50, try about 15, depending on the circumstances.


----------



## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

hailene said:


> No, you're thinking about the ones connected to the 303rd expedition (the one with Argel Tal and the Serrated Sun Chapter, and of those only one died on Cadia, Ven). The ones connected to the main Word Bearer's fleet were all lost. That's why Xaphen was so keen on keeping the Custodes attached to the 303rd fleet alive--to utilize their blood as a catalyst for magic against the Emperor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think thats what I'm thinking of cheers


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lost&Damned;1503409 said:


> If i remember correctly, when Lorgar decided to create a huge number of possessed space marines his ratio of death to success was about 15 to 1, so no, not 50, try about 15, depending on the circumstances.



I'm not quite sure how attrition rates for becoming a possessed marine transfers directly into fighting prowess...?

Could you explain, please?

And if you could point me to this source, I'd be very happy as well. I vaguely remember reading in one of the compilation HH novels about something along these lines, I think.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hailene said:


> I'm not quite sure how attrition rates for becoming a possessed marine transfers directly into fighting prowess...?
> 
> Could you explain, please?
> 
> And if you could point me to this source, I'd be very happy as well. I vaguely remember reading in one of the compilation HH novels about something along these lines, I think.



Mark of Calth, the Underworld war.
‘You are already doing it. Give me three Gal Vorbak for every thirteen dead, my son, and I will thank you until the stars themselves die as icy cores in the void. We are demanding more than any legionary has ever been forced to bear. Let us not weep at the weaklings falling by the wayside.’

my bad it was 3 possessed space marines in every 13.
My reasoning is, if he is willing to have a 1 in 4 chance of a space marine actually becoming possessed and not dying, he clearly is of the opinion that 4 deaths is a reasonable payment for a single Gal Vorbak, so i assume his military ability and insight has lead him to the conclusion that one gal vorbak is definitely worth 4 space marines.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Hailene, I read that somerwhere in "The First Heretic," book; I will try and find the page when I get off work tommorrow as I'm working a double till 7am. 

I also found some other quotes refering to the strength of Adeptus Custodes on alternate websites. These first few are from the Warhammer 40k Wikipedia page (Non-Lexicanum source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes)

"They are the "Dread Guardians," and the only living beings permitted to walk beside the Emperor. The Custodes were the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created, ten thousand strong and the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium." 

" a unit of Custodes known as the Emperor's Companions used to accompany the Emperor at all times, even when he retired to his private chambers. During the Great Crusade, these great warriors always kept a contingent with the Emperor for his protection, but also travelled individually as his personal envoys. Even in the days before the Heresy, it was a rare and blessed thing to see a member of the Legio Custodes, and due to the confinement of the Emperor to the Golden Throne, it has become an almost unthinkable event. Even during the Battle of Terra, a group of Custodes joined the Emperor when he made his assault upon Horus' flagship, the Battle Barge _Vengeful Spirit_."

" The individuality of each Custodes is further promoted by the fact that the genetic engineering processes required to produce them is not as refined or as simple as that of the Astartes and thus they are not "mass-produced" as the Astartes are; meaning that each Custodian is a unique investment for the Imperium who undergoes a genetic enhancement process that has been specially adapted to his particular physiology and genome. If the Space Marines are the result of an "assembly line" process of genetic modification and enhancement, the Custodians are custom models."

"Custodians are typically seen with a Guardian Spear which, in the days before the Horus Heresy, was actualy a combination of a Force Halberd with a Bolter. This made the weapon powerful at range as well as deadly effective in close-combat. A Gladius is normally seen at their side, which serves as a Power Weapon. The Custodian Gaius Commodus carried a modified version of the ancient Guardian Spear. It is rumoured that the spear itself was a relic given to him by Constantine Valdor, the Captain-General of the Custodians during the Horus Heresy."

Of all the sources this website uses to back it's credentials up for the Custodes I found these three...

- The Outcast Dead (Novel) by Graham McNeill
- The Imperial Truth (Anthology) edited by Laurie Goulding, "Hands of the Emperor" by Rob Sanders
- Inquisitor (Novel) by Ian Watson

.....to be sources I have niether read but were cited in Lexicanum as well (Exception being "The Imperial Truth," of whicyh I have never heard of before). "Blood Games" by Dan Abnett was also missing from this artcile but yet the knowledge was cited here...interesting read if your up for it. 

Many of you hate this website, but I found a short article on someone who managed to make a custom model? For your entertainment, but also found it spammed across 4 other sites so I'm unsure if BOLS is where it origionated from.(http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/11/40k-hobby-adeptus-custodes-conversion.html)


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lost&Damned;1503817 said:


> My reasoning is, if he is willing to have a 1 in 4 chance of a space marine actually becoming possessed and not dying, he clearly is of the opinion that 4 deaths is a reasonable payment for a single Gal Vorbak, so i assume his military ability and insight has lead him to the conclusion that one gal vorbak is definitely worth 4 space marines.


Lorgar's willingness to sacrifice his sons does not necessarily correlate to combat ability of the possessed marines. After all, Lorgar may be making a mistake--it really isn't worth losing 4 for 1, perhaps.

Or maybe Lorgar has another other objectives in mind--like worshiping the gods he so dearly loves?

As I said before, the attrition rate of the Gol Vorbrak can not be the sole basis on the strength of an individual possessed marine. Not without additional proof.



emporershand89 said:


> Stuff


Nothing terribly shocking about what you quoted. I've never heard of them being called the "Dread Guardians". Also their weapons are probably merely power weapons--force weapons must be utilized by a psyker to work, no?

Still, none of your quotations suggest that a custode is worth 100 Space Marines.

If anything, the conversation amongst Agrel Tal and his men watching the custodes fight Forty-Seven Sixteen shows how in a battle, the custodes would likely have been inferior to an equal sized group of Astartes on a battlefield.

"‘In standing free of brotherhood,’ he said, ‘they also sacrifice its strengths. The tactics of a pack. The trust in those who fight by your side."

The custodes are warriors, not soldiers. 

While they can fight on a battlefield (as the Burning of Prospero demonstrated), it is not the arena they were bred and trained for.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

hailene said:


> Also their weapons are probably merely power weapons--force weapons must be utilized by a psyker to work, no?


I'm not sure. Both Lexicanum and the Wikipedia page both say they are Force Weapons, but yet they are not psyker's. Considering the advanced technology of the weapons they wield it I would not put it ast them to wield Force Weapons without being psyker's themselves. If you find anything on the matter though I'd love to read into it. It might give a glance onto how the Inquisition gets their power weapons to counter daemonics and xeno's. 



hailene said:


> Still, none of your quotations suggest that a Custode is worth 100 Space Marines.


Like I said I will pull out "The First Heretic," and find the pages I read that in. It is true they sacrifice the advantage of the group, but their individual training,easily outdoes an Astarte's advantage. Just the fact that they are such a time and investment makes them great fighters equal, if not more powerful, then their Space Marine brethren.

It is true, as you stated above, that they are not trained for Total War, and are more fitted to Assassinations and Protection details. In that however they excel, and when tested have dominated on the battlefield. Just look at how they held their ground numerous times over the Horus Heresy. Constantine Valdor anyone.....the titles heaped upon him for his accomplishments is....staggering. 

Anyway that's just the conclusion I've reached, I will confess I do not know specifics on how Custodes compare to Astarte s (or Thunder Warriors for that matter) but clearly they are no laughing matter.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Both Lexicanum and the Wikipedia page both say they are Force Weapons


Only the Wiki states so (and I would never trust the wiki without a citation...and even then, only after looking it up). The Lex says nothing about force weapons.



emporershand89 said:


> Just the fact that they are such a time and investment makes them great fighters equal, if not more powerful, then their Space Marine brethren.


Being superior to an individual Astartes? No problem. I can shoulder that.

_100 times_ better? Never. And I can guarantee you you won't find anything that supports that.

That's something on a Primarch level.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> I'm not sure. Both Lexicanum and the Wikipedia page both say they are Force Weapons, but yet they are not psyker's. Considering the advanced technology of the weapons they wield it I would not put it ast them to wield Force Weapons without being psyker's themselves. If you find anything on the matter though I'd love to read into it. It might give a glance onto how the Inquisition gets their power weapons to counter daemonics and xeno's


The weapons wielded by the Custodians were _Guardian Spears_, they were not force weapons. _Collected Visions_ explains this, though it should be obvious given that we don't have a single example of a psyker-Custodian.

And, as _hailene_ said, there is certainly no evidence to suggest a Custodian was roughly the worth of a hundred Space Marines. In fact there is directly evidence to the contrary (such as _The First Heretic_).


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hailene said:


> Lorgar's willingness to sacrifice his sons does not necessarily correlate to combat ability of the possessed marines. After all, Lorgar may be making a mistake--it really isn't worth losing 4 for 1, perhaps.
> 
> Or maybe Lorgar has another other objectives in mind--like worshiping the gods he so dearly loves?
> 
> As I said before, the attrition rate of the Gol Vorbrak can not be the sole basis on the strength of an individual possessed marine. Not without additional proof.


Their strengths are highlighted in Mark of calth aswell as aaron demski bowdens novels.
They can survive in environments that would kill even space marines, live off nothing but ash for years, become substantially faster and stronger than the space marine baseline.
Indeed in a short story about the destruction of the Sons of Horus, a space marine indicates that a massive hunting party (world eaters) is after him, and the only way he has managed to protect himself, fight them off and elude them was by offering up his body to demons and allowing himself to be possessed.
It is also stated that thanks to their possession, they can gain extra limbs, improved healing abilities, wings, breath fire etc......
If i recall correctly, many of the Sons of Horus found respite (however brief it was) and the ability to fight off other legions and other demons only by sacrificing their bodies.

I cant say whether or not Lorgars desire to sacrifice thousands of his sons for a relatively few Gal vorbak was for his Gods or simply because he understood their potency, i think its a mixture, their gifts allow for warriors that even by space marine standards are incredibly durable and vicious.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

While the Word Bearers watching the Custodians fight did say that there was a flaw in their fighting style in that they didn't fight together, they were shocked and awed by the martial power they showed as individuals.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lost&Damned;1504505 said:


> They can survive in environments that would kill even space marines, live off nothing but ash for years


If you're basing it off the visions of Kaurtal, then that's shaky ground. That was just all a vision. As Lorgar said, "I suppose they will all see what every prophet sees – lies and metaphors, hopes and promises, all seeded with the ghosts of truth. Such is the way of all prophecy." You can't take that at face value.

I also re-read the relevant portions of _Mark of Calth_.

Lorgar is willing to sacrifice 13 men to get 3 possessed marines, at this point, 1. He's willing to use the chaff of his Legion (ones too blinded by hate to be truly useful) and 2. To perfect the possession of Space Marines so that his real men, the other half of his Legion, can host daemons without dying at the same rate.

The 3/16 are test subjects.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hailene said:


> If you're basing it off the visions of Kaurtal, then that's shaky ground. That was just all a vision. As Lorgar said, "I suppose they will all see what every prophet sees – lies and metaphors, hopes and promises, all seeded with the ghosts of truth. Such is the way of all prophecy." You can't take that at face value.
> 
> I also re-read the relevant portions of _Mark of Calth_.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day, they can breath fire, grow extra limbs, grow wings, become substantially faster have RIDICULOUS healing power (argel tal tearing out his hearts multiple times, gouging out his own throat)which eclipses even that of a space maine, they are physically stronger than a normal space marine, they are more durable, and have a greater propensity for violence (claws and fangs that can tear through ceramite).
and again, all the traitor legions had many that survived simply thanks to their possession, like the Son of Horus i previously mentioned.
There also seems to be levels of possession, each one giving more potent "gifts", they are evidently greater than the space marine baseline.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think you may have lost sight of what you're trying to debate.

No one is saying that possessed marines have some very nifty tricks and abilities that one-up them over normal marines.

What I was arguing against (and initially what you were arguing for, so many posts ago) is whether or not the survival ratio of converting regular marines has a direct 1:1 correlation with the marines' fighting strength.

That was the point we were talking about.

Is the averaged possessed marine five times stronger than a regular marine? I do not know. I have my doubts.


----------

