# Would Horus's assassination have mattered? (Minor nemesis spoilers)



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Okay so after reading Nemesis, and the other Heresy novels, I'm beginning to wonder if Horus's death would have stopped the heresy.

Admittedly if he had died, for instance, pre Isstvan chaos may never have had the clout to convert so many primarchs whilst scattering the rest. But if the assassination in Nemesis had gone to plan then his death would be almost meaningless. It's becoming apparent that most of Horus's movements are being "suggested" to him by the Chaos gods via Erebus and his fleet has grown to such a size that they need only arrive in a system before that system rebels and renounces the imperium in terror.

So if Horus got offed it would be fairly simple to place a "puppet" warmaster in place to look godly. I mean if Abbaddon was able to take command and organize a retreat to the eye of terror surely Lorgar, Magnus, or Perturabo could step up and hold them together for a while.

Pretty much every characteristic attributed to Horus, like strategic mastermind, famed general, peerless warrior etc. Is mentioned for most other primarchs too, so (with chaos's help of course) most other primarchs would have been able to steer the ship once Horus got it up and running.

So I put it to you, would Horus's assassination have stopped the heresy dead in it's tracks?


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## naturalbornloser (May 11, 2008)

I don't think it would have. What it would have done would be to slow them down. If Horus was killed that would leave a massive vacum in the top echlone of the ledership. All the other Primarchs would have stoped to consolidate their power base at the time and muster their forces. Then there would be alot of bravado and muscle flexing for a bit, and some attempts at minor alliances to help 1 primarch become number 1 top chaos dog.

Once the top man has been selected another cull of all suspect troops, units, comanders etc would have to be carried out to make sure every 1 is back on the same page.

After all that and aload of other stuff I'm bound to have missed out ( but you get the drift ) then and only then would they be able to continue the march on Terra.

Now while all this is going on ( acouple of years at the least ) I'll bet the Emp and Dorn wernt sitting around talking cod shit over a pint.

So yeah I reckon the death of Horous would maby not stoped it happening, but would have made it a shed load harder.


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## komanko (May 16, 2010)

I didnt read the book, but theoretically, once the legions were corrupted the man sitting at the "throne" didn't matter anymore it could be anyone from Horus to Fulgrim, it really does not matter because the heresy has found them already and they pledged themselves to the chaos gods.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

But then as soon as Horus got killed by the Big E. Everything went to shit and they all fled like the traitors they are...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Captain Loken has pretty much hit the nail on the head, what happened when Horus was killed proves that he was pivotal to the rebellion.
If Horus had been killed the remaining primarchs would have turned on each other for the position of Warmaster. As much as he was used as a puppet by the Word Bearers he was still a figure head and a great leader, he alone managed to bring together half of the legions and he did it by asking them to join his uprising. The other Primarchs were too arrogant and filled with their own self importance to follow anyone other than Horus.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

i just have this sinking feeling that choas would have had a back up plan if Horus had been killed. I think Lorgar would have filled his shoes nicley had Horus been topped off early. and if another primarch didnt like Lorgar's appointment, we all know Erebus is a good 'persuader'. The only primarch i can see that wouldnt like Lorgar's appointment would be Perturabo. As he probably thinks he'd do a better job. Angron would just be happy to kill, Fulgrim was possessed by a daemon, Morty is just a follower, Alpharus is only doing it cos an Eldar told him to, Night Haunter has already started plotting his own demise. am i forgetting another traitor primarch? probably, but if i did hes not important enough to lead the rebellion.

hmmm, i forgot about Magnus. but none of the others trust him to begin with as hes a dirty 'witch' to them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't think lorgar could have actually commanded the forces. He wasn't nearly the commander Horus was. If they lost Horus the rebellion would have lost it's brightest general while the loyalist would have still had G and the lion. Their advance would have been slowed and I think it would sign their death worrent.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

Horus was attributed to being the master of politics within the legions, master of tactics and a primarch of primarchs, if you will...

His leadership was the cement binding the heresy together. Think of the Horus Heresy as a flying brick house, with Horus as the mortar between the bricks of the legions. It's a giant house, roughly two acres in size and it's flying right at the Emperor's castle, roughly three and a half acres in size. If the mortar holds, the house stands a chance of toppling the Emperor's tallest towers, and possibly the whole damn castle will collapse beneath the brickwork of This Heretical House (starring Bob Vila).

Now, you dissolve the mortar, and while the bricks are still flying through the air, they are each dealing with a different amount of wind resistance, drag and lift, and each brick begins to become distanced from its brother, as these differences grow. As the brick house flies into the Emperor's castle, each brick hits, many shatter harmlessly against the outer defense walls, drag and gravity having robbed them of momentum. Others, while staying higher up, penetrate the defenses, but as few of the bricks still hold bonds to other bricks, they begin shattering on impact on the towers, some take pock marks from the walls, the towers, the plazas between fortifications, some civilians below are crushed by falling ruin, but for the most part, the castle stands, the Emperor's rule unbroken.

The Emperor would have had fractured and divided enemies, instead of a singular enemy, he would have been able to pacify the legions (wipe them out, all of them), and slap Guilliman for trying to put words in his mouth. =P

I think assassinating Horus before he got to Terra would have mattered... but now, it doesn't, because we already know how the story ends... it's just reading how we get there that makes these books fun.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

CaptainLoken said:


> But then as soon as Horus got killed by the Big E. Everything went to shit and they all fled like the traitors they are...


By that stage it could be argued that the fight was lost anyway as there were loyalist reinforcements inbound and Horus's gamble had failed. It would be a big ask for any leader to hold together the troops at a time like that.

But what I'm talking about is a leadership change when the traitor forces are still in a position of power. The heresy's timeline is hard to nail down but I think there were still a few years to go before the siege once the events of _Nemesis_ are concluded, leaving more than enough time for a new primarch to take over.

And let’s not forget that Horus was a tactical genius and the setting up of something as fundamentally simple as a chain of command shouldn’t have been beyond him so assuming he managed to set one up the degree of infighting could have been kept to a minimum.

There's also, as Brother subtle points out, the fact that the chaos gods are in a strong position. When Horus was defeated and the emperor did the whole "struck with enough power to send them retreating back to the warp" thing they were still strong enough to summon enough power to bring Luther of the Dark Angels up to Primarch strength. So at _Nemesis's_ time they should be more than capable of exherting the influence necessary to crown another warmaster from the stock of remaining primarchs who, by this point, have been under the influence of chaos for quite some time anyway and should be quite susceptible to suggestions.



gen.ahab said:


> If they lost Horus the rebellion would have lost its brightest general while the loyalist would have still had G and the lion. Their advance would have been slowed and I think it would sign their death worrent.


At the time I'm referring to I think G and the Lion have already been scattered and are effectively put on the sidelines. I haven't got the source material right now but I think that decision was made immediately prior to Isstvan in _Fulgrim_. And again I'm only going on what Erebus claims i.e. that the majority of the heresy has been planned by the Chaos gods. And that Horus's input was in reality quite limited. You have to admit some of Horus's strategies have an awful lot of Tzeentch in them.:grin:


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Belthazor Aurellius said:


> Horus was attributed to being the master of politics within the legions, master of tactics and a primarch of primarchs, if you will...
> 
> His leadership was the cement binding the heresy together. Think of the Horus Heresy as a flying brick house, with Horus as the mortar between the bricks of the legions. It's a giant house, roughly two acres in size and it's flying right at the Emperor's castle, roughly three and a half acres in size. If the mortar holds, the house stands a chance of toppling the Emperor's tallest towers, and possibly the whole damn castle will collapse beneath the brickwork of This Heretical House (starring Bob Vila).
> 
> ...


If Horus was the mortar chaos was the bricklayer. _Nemesis_ also points out that the Sons of Horus had been using proxies in some of Horus's appearances so there's no reason to assume that word of his assassination would have spread too quickly. That could potentially give time for chaos to do a bit of remedial work on your brickwork. Nice analogy though.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

Thank you. I tried.

It's a good question, would it have mattered? But, unless the whole Horus Heresy goes to Retcon Hell, we can assume that the plot and ending are set in black granite, with the Emperor's insignia etched into a large headstone dated 8000BCE-30,000CE...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> At the time I'm referring to I think G and the Lion have already been scattered and are effectively put on the sidelines. I haven't got the source material right now but I think that decision was made immediately prior to Isstvan in _Fulgrim_. And again I'm only going on what Erebus claims i.e. that the majority of the heresy has been planned by the Chaos gods. And that Horus's input was in reality quite limited. You have to admit some of Horus's strategies have an awful lot of Tzeentch in them.:grin:


Yes, but look how well it went for them. If Horus were to be taken down and Lorgar to become the leader, the traitors advance would have slowed substantially, assuming that they actually could function. It would have given both legions the time they needed to return.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Yeah I agree, I'm not saying they would have won, just that post a successful assassination:

1. The traitors would not just look around and become disillusioned and give up, that's a certainty.

2. The traitors probably would have organised themselves into a fairly cohesive fighting force quicker than I would have thought pre _Nemesis_.

3. Would have followed a similar path to the one that Horus did. With similar results. Given how long the siege lasted for I reckon they would have besieged terra before gulliman and co showed up.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Even if they were slowed a week though, which they would, 3 more legions would have been present. It would have doomed the heresy.


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## Clegane (Jun 17, 2010)

the way i see it see it yes and no. he does have such an effect on what happens especially what happens in the final battle.

Horus being assassinated brings to mind the dangers of being a martry, but I don't think any of the other traitor primarchs had the strategic foresight that could reach the heart of the imperium like he could.

On the other hand war could have still been so brutal that the imperium could still lost its way whoever lead the traitor legions.

But I still think it would have far better to take out Horus... the traitor legions primarchs would still more likely fall on themselves to take command and fail to unify to a purpose


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Even if they were slowed a week though, which they would. 3 more legions would have been present. It would have doomed the heresy.


I guess you have a point there, perhaps Lorgar and co would have to do some tweaking in the years preceding terra.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Okay so after reading Nemesis, and the other Heresy novels, I'm beginning to wonder if Horus's death would have stopped the heresy.
> 
> Admittedly if he had died, for instance, pre Isstvan chaos may never have had the clout to convert so many primarchs whilst scattering the rest. But if the assassination in Nemesis had gone to plan then his death would be almost meaningless. It's becoming apparent that most of Horus's movements are being "suggested" to him by the Chaos gods via Erebus and his fleet has grown to such a size that they need only arrive in a system before that system rebels and renounces the imperium in terror.
> 
> ...


i think renegades would poke about but not a full scale imperial war.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

I think my only perception of possible change would be that if Horus had been slain by an assassin, he would not have been there for the Emperor to launch a boarding party that doomed himself and Sang. If it had been Fulgrim that Sang fought, or Angron, perhaps he'd have died, but the Emperor wouldn't have. And I don't think the Emperor would have held back against Lorgar, he would have simply done what he should have done back when Lorgar was singing praises to His name...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> 3. Would have followed a similar path to the one that Horus did. With similar results. Given how long the siege lasted for I reckon they would have besieged terra before gulliman and co showed up.


The reason Rogal Dorn oppossed the Execution Force's mission to kill Horus Lupercal was because of this. Horus was predictable, or at least his ultimate goal and purpose was. Dorn knew that Horus ultimately had to besiege Terra and kill the Emperor if he was to succeed in his rebellion. If Horus had been killed, the unified rebels would have fractured and many Legions would have gone their own way. But the death of Horus would have not only shattered the cohesion of the Traitor Forces, but also their predictability. The galaxy as a whole may have suffered a lot more during the Heresy if Horus had been killed during the Age of Darkness rather than during the Siege of Terra.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I understand the point, I just think that the more the books are stretching out the more apparent it is becoming that the overall "path to terra" isn't horus's plan but that of his chaos puppeteers. Erebus mentioned at some point something about waiting until the "stars were in align" or something to that effect. In the same chapter, probably even the same page, he talks about witholding information from horus further reinforcing the idea that horus is being manipulated and is a figurehead albeit an important one.

That's not to say he is not having a tacticul input and as someone pointed out the shield gambit that may or may not have been sentiment/regret might never have happened without horus in command or this idea of personally "raising the flag" that was contrary to erebus's plans and has been delaying the advance.

Whether they would have stayed together or not is admittedly uncertain but dont forget that the chaos gods had put aside they're differences and were working together and by this stage must have had a great deal of influence over the remaining primarchs. In addition the influence of the lodges was binding the legions together at a battle brother level. It's also conceivable that an assassination would have banded the traitors together under a flag of vengence, necessity and opportunity.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I don't think lorgar could have actually commanded the forces. He wasn't nearly the commander Horus was. If they lost Horus the rebellion would have lost it's brightest general while the loyalist would have still had G and the lion. Their advance would have been slowed and I think it would sign their death worrent.


Correct me if im wrong but didnt the Word Bearers have the biggest legion by far out of the traitors? Yes, he wasnt the commander Horus was, but he was the Primarch that started the whole Heresy rolling, if there was anyone who would see it through it would be Lorgar. The entire heresy is Lorgar and Erebus' baby remember.

I imagine had Horus been killed the Alpha Legion would have defected back to the side of the Emperor (if the Emperor could forgive them of course, which he wouldnt). they would be excommunicae traitors, al la Soul Drinkers.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Second largest legion and possible the poorest record of the campaign... Doesn't say much for his abilities as a commander. Also, he needed Horus to lead the traitors... Lorgar couldn't have commanded the traitors. Well I suppose he could but it would have fallen apart.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

But if Lorgar had for a moment believed he was capable of leading the Heresy he would never have bothered with Horus and would probably have bumped him off along with the Emperor. 
The reason Horus was at the head of the uprising was he's Horus, the Warmaster. If Lorgar tried to take control any one of the other traitor Primarchs could and would have challenged him for leadership. 
The reason Lorgar remained behind the scenes was he knew that he didn't have the popularity to lead the other Primarchs, he needed someone to do the hard work for him.

The rest of the Primarchs had their own agendas; Fulgrim was too self obsessed, Perturabo hated Dorn, Night Haunter was mad as a box of frogs along with Angron who just wanted to hit stuff. Magnus was forced into turning traitor for his own survival, Alpharius/Omegon, god alone knows what they were planning and Mortarion was always going to be a sheep and just follow the leader. 
Horus was the one and only Primarch that could hold all that hatred and anger together and target it all at the Emperor, thats why he was the Warmaster and why without him the Heresy would have died away into nothing.


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## vista101 (May 15, 2009)

or...i know this is a long shot here, but...Might abbadon have taken command? Think about it, thats what happend after big H's death anyway, and the other primarches seemed to respect him then, and he manages to unify all the warbands for his Black Crusades....is it possible do you think? Hummm :/

Edit: sorry, tech defaults this should be a Zas240 post not a Vista101 post, my damn computer is screwed up ¬.¬ wont let me log him off for more than 5 minuates


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

I think Horus's assassination would have not changed anything, they could just clone him if he died....

oh, hang on...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

vista101 said:


> or...i know this is a long shot here, but...Might abbadon have taken command? Think about it, thats what happend after big H's death anyway, and the other primarches seemed to respect him then, and he manages to unify all the warbands for his Black Crusades....is it possible do you think? Hummm :/


It took a very long time and many inter-Legionnary wars following the Heresy and death of Horus for Abaddon to gain control over the XVI Legion, and take into account that most if not all of the other Traitor Legions still despise him and at the first chance would probably happily kill him and remove him from his position of influence.

If Horus had been assassinated during the Heresy, there was no chance a mere Astartes could take command of the entire rebellion when there were still 8 Primarchs directly active and involved, Abaddon would find his head on a pole faster than he could say 'Black Crusade'.


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## manyfist (Aug 14, 2010)

Without Horus as said the entire thing would've fallen apart, with each the traitor Primarchs would've be too busy fighting each other due to their differences in ideologies. Also the only reason the Big E now sits on the throne would be the fact Horus was his favorite and most powerful son. Any other son, I would lead to believe that Big E would've destroyed the traitor sooner and with more ease than he did with Horus. That's assuming they could even get to Terra. In retrospect the Imperium would be a better and happier place.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

I'd imagine that if he hadn't ascended to the Golden Throne, he would have been able to kill people like Goge Vandire, and would not need an Ecclesiarchy to speak for him (and would probably abolish religion after the Heresy, eradicating those who were declared "saints")... But that wouldn't change the fact that 10,000 years down the road, the Eldar, Tau, Ork, Necron and Tyranid are beating down doors into Imperium-held turf everywhere, and even the Emperor would be hard pressed to fight off such forces (especially when Chaos would still exist, the traitor legions still inhabit the Eye and heretics from within occasionally rebelling...).


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