# Space Wolves Rant, mainly their Long Fangs



## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

My two friends and I are playing a game at the moment, Eldar vs. Space Wolves vs. Grey Knights and at 1500 points bar one unit each they both have full Termie armies D=, but anyway. 

Forget about the Eldar being better shooters (I have shadow spectres in the army) or whatever, and I can live with the fact that Space Wolves have counter-attack, it makes sense that's the way they are... but why, oh why are the Long Fang's able to split their fire when they are lead by a Pack leader? no leadership test, nothing... they can just willing split their fire no problem. 

nothing else in the game can do it, Eldar and Tau being the most advanced races = nope
Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors being specialists at Siege tactics = nope
Iron hands being specialists in advanced bionics and optics = nope
... Not even Vehicle squadrons can split their fire... so why, oh why can Long Fangs :ireful2:

/end rant...

LoA


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't understand what you are ranting about. Do you mean split fire is overpowered, or are you angry because the veterans of a space wolf company can do something your aspect warriors can't?
A farseer can cast fortune, my rune priest can't. Should I be angry about that?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Rules don't often make sense, they are there to establish unique styles of play and use. For instance no other walker in the game has the ability to cause 10+ wounds on infantry, but BA blood talon dreads can. Necrons get up after getting hit by ap1 str10 shots, no other army can do that either. Hell unlike long fangs the entire DE army invalidates every MC build in the game as having a 100 point unit kill a 200pt MC in one round of poison shooting is a hell lot worse then long fangs splitting fire.

Personally I do find the new marine armies a hell lot more competative then the old crap marines who are so generalized that even older books like CSM, Eldar, Tau can beat them, but in all honesty SW, BA and the like need little extra's as almost every army can do great anti MeQ these days.

Face it Eldar/Tau are now ancient codecies, and it will only get worse for the armies as they wait another 1-2 years for a update.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

my guess is his arse got handed to him and he blames the long fangs ability for the loss


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still can't fault him for wanting to rant, at this point eldar are getting real long in the tooth as they reach the very back end of the cycle.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Still can't fault him for wanting to rant, at this point eldar are getting real long in the tooth as they reach the very back end of the cycle.


would you say they are long fanged ? :wink:


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

more that the Long Fangs are one of the two only units (that I know of) that can split their fire, the other being Pink horrors with we are legion but they aren't firing STR 9 weapons AND have counter-attack. 

I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, seeing how they are meant to be a assault army. not saying Eldar should get it or whatever.

It's mainly the fact that a space marine assault army has the ability that no other (fluff-wise) more fitting chapters can do. 

To be honest I kind of feel sorry for Matt Ward for all the Hate bashing that he got for the BAs and GKs, as far as I know the SW codex was written before both them (I might be wrong) and normally I really like Phil kelly's stuff, most of his other stuff are powerful but still balanced with other armies, it just seems like he went nutty for the space Vikings. Even most of the guys at my local GW agree, and a number of them have SW armies.

At Luke and B&K, we're still playing atm, they did knock out my fire prism's weapon (which for revenge is now tank shocking them for poops and giggles) but in the same turn was also able to land too Plasma cannon blasts on my pathfinders (cover saved most of them) but I just found it nutty cause out of every army I didn't expect the Space wolves to have that ability on top of everything else they have and for the general cheap cost of the units.

The games still going good, my Shadow Spectres and Dire avengers did well against Logan and his termie buddy's but the next turn I'm sending my banshees into Njal and his Termie buddies on the otherside of the battlefield, so have to wait and see.


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Just to clarify. Tau can split fire. Crisis suits, Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Stealth suits, Hammerhead/Devilfish/Skyray, and even Broadsides. It's a cheap upgrade that any squad can take.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

SavageConvoy said:


> Just to clarify. Tau can split fire. Crisis suits, Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Stealth suits, Hammerhead/Devilfish/Skyray, and even Broadsides. It's a cheap upgrade that any squad can take.


ah, forgot about the targeting array, I believe it's called... thought the crisis suit's are the only ones that can get that?

And before anyone thinks, I'm not actually trying to play the hate game on the Space Wolves, it's more of confusion on how come they pretty much have most abilites and close to it that other armies have (2 HQs per 1 Choice, good assault units, split fire, etc.) it's like they have everything, everyone else has, or it seems like it.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, *seeing how they are meant to be a assault army*.


Why do people still think they are ment to be an assault army? Even the SW books would support shooting builds. Of all the chapters they are the ones who would do anything to win, so if shooting is good in the game, then they would.
Not to mention that the "counterattack" rule makes it seem that the wolves want to get assaulted, not to assault. 

Also, long fangs being superiour isn't that hard to believe when you relise they are the most veteran fighters of their respective companies.... You could actually compare them to stern/van veterans of other chapters.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Fire dragon them, see how their split fire likes close up face-melta.

I would say that against Eldar they are a pretty high priority threat to eliminate, just be thankful that you are playing an army that is pretty darn good at eliminating no1 threats.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

as Tossidin said, SW are designed more like SM to be all rounders, rather then an "assault" army.

their new recruits, the blood claws, are blood hungery and eager to prove themselves, making them excellent assault troops.

Grey hunters are abit more seasoned and still have assault tendancies but work as all rounders.

Long fangs are seasoned vets that stick together and find themselves enjoying the support role from long range, being some of the most vetran of all the SW forces, for more up and personal vetrans, those who have that lone wolf mindset but havnt become the last standing survivor of their pack, tend to become the SW scouts, which sneak up and kill their enemies, or thunder wolf Cav, since they tamed a thunder wolf to ride into battle on.


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

The item for Tau is the Target lock. It's a Hardwired item, so just about anything can take it. Though only the Firewarrior/Pathfinder leader can take one in a squad. Fairgame for any other Tau unit though.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Don't forget that all shooting must be declared before it is rolled; i.e. all targets must be identified before any dice are rolled. So the Long Fangs might fail to achieve anything because they split their fire and didn't manage enough hits to do anything.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Its their long beards that let them do it, everyone knows a long beard means you can do what every you want. " It's the biggest!"


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

crabpuff said:


> Its their long beards that let them do it, everyone knows a long beard means you can do what every you want. " It's the biggest!"


stop trying to use Ork logic with wolves. two different armies


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Grandma what big teeth you have.
Seriously this is because they are old, they have most likly been around centuries and so with a squad leader alive can split the fire due to discipline. They have everything backwards compared to most chapters. Long Fangs and scouts are older and not newer/not yet created Space Marines like other chapters. The fact that they like CC does not mean they have crappy shooting abilities.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

Fair points, but if we take the Xeno races out of the equation for a minute and just focus on Space marines (Chapter or Legion). When my friend pointed out that CSM get a CCW and a BP for most units I thought alright that's pretty cool, their standard unit don't have stuff like 'ATSKNF' but can have more men, but they don't have counter-attack either.

my main notch about it all is that whether being assaulted or assaulting most SW units get 3 attacks most of the time, base 1 +1 for 'assaulting' and +1 for a pistol and CCW weapon combo. how can they not be seen as an assault themed army? 

and if they are meant to be a shooting type army, why have that much assault power? and if the Long fangs are meant to be the equal to other Chapters Veterans, out of the roughly 1000 chapters in the galaxy, how is it that only the SW Vets have that ability to split fire? if the SW are meant to be at base an all-rounder army like the other SM chapters?


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> Fair points, but if we take the Xeno races out of the equation for a minute and just focus on Space marines (Chapter or Legion). When my friend pointed out that CSM get a CCW and a BP for most units I thought alright that's pretty cool, their standard unit don't have stuff like 'ATSKNF' but can have more men, but they don't have counter-attack either.
> 
> my main notch about it all is that whether being assaulted or assaulting most SW units get 3 attacks most of the time, base 1 +1 for 'assaulting' and +1 for a pistol and CCW weapon combo. how can they not be seen as an assault themed army?
> 
> and if they are meant to be a shooting type army, why have that much assault power? and if the Long fangs are meant to be the equal to other Chapters Veterans, out of the roughly 1000 chapters in the galaxy, how is it that only the SW Vets have that ability to split fire? if the SW are meant to be at base an all-rounder army like the other SM chapters?


Space Wolves are not an assault or shooting army - they're a Loyalist chapter that still fights in a similar manner to the Legions of old.
They have the perks of being loyalist marines, (atsknf, imperial tech, etc...), but their playstyle is very much akin to how a Chaos Space marine army plays. That is, they're a middle ground to 'in your face' army.

The other big chapters take the roles of assaulty or shooty;
- BA's = assaulty with a mix of mechanised shooting
- Templars = all-out assaulty
- DA's = shooty with some capable assaulty bitz.



Long Fangs get to split their firepower because they're the veterans, the oldest dudes in the company, sometimes even being much, much older than their freakin Wolf Lord!

Besides, you do realise that all other marines aside from Templars do the same thing, only better right?! You know, that little thing called 'combat squads' that effectively means a 10-man squad can shoot different targets but with the added perks of;
a) Not having to declare all their targets at the same time. (due to being completely seperate squads)

b) Hot losing the split fire ability because 1 dude bites the dust.

c) Having ablative wounds protecting their heavy weapons.

d) That most important weapon standing next to Mr.Sergeant getting a +1BS boost from the signum.

Sure Long Fangs are cheaper and pack more heavy weapons, but they come in much smaller squads, lose more per casulty and are only as resiliant as the next marine.

I know I'd much rather pay 200pts and have more survivable heavy weapons than 160 something pts and watch a big gun drop every single time I lose a squad member!


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> more that the Long Fangs are one of the two only units (that I know of) that can split their fire, the other being Pink horrors with we are legion but they aren't firing STR 9 weapons AND have counter-attack.
> 
> I just see it as there are other units or armies that would have that type of ability more than the Space Wolves, seeing how they are meant to be a assault army. not saying Eldar should get it or whatever.
> 
> ...


You clearly don't understand SW if you think they are an assault army. The army plays like the fluff says it should. Most armies are heavy on infantry: fluffy. Each unit can function on its own: fluffy. The veterans have the ability to think independently and split their fire: fluffy.

The army plays like a pack of wolves, you weaken the enemy with the long fangs then the grey hunters go in for the kill.

SW are not overpowered. The codex is fantastic, one of the best GW codices available and it has survived the test of time, still maintaining its ability to be top tier. Eldar have an older codex designed for another edition, naturally they don't have some more recent special abilities. 

GK stand up to Wolves very well, as does ,*shudder*, venom spam or wych cult DE, Necrons and BA. All 5th ed codices. The problem is not with the wolf codex, it is with the Eldar codex. Play tactically soundly and you will beat most SW players, especially with Eldar speed. Go full reserve and gypsy his objectives in later turns, surefire way to win. Failing that, take outflanking war walkers, because scatter lasers put the pain on long fangs


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> You clearly don't understand SW if you think they are an assault army. The army plays like the fluff says it should. Most armies are heavy on infantry: fluffy. Each unit can function on its own: fluffy. The veterans have the ability to think independently and split their fire: fluffy.
> 
> The army plays like a pack of wolves, you weaken the enemy with the long fangs then the grey hunters go in for the kill.
> 
> ...


my problem isn't with them going up against Eldar, like I said earlier take the Xeno races out of the equation I'm comparing them to other Space Marines Chapters, even the ones that don't follow the Codex astartes like the Space Wolves don't, if the Long Fangs can think for themselves and do what they want because of their ages and knowledge, why can't other Veterans marines who are just as old do it? Dante even he's the oldest marine alive, but if he joins a unit he can't split his fire from them, so that argument can't hold.

and since I started playing in 3rd, if X unit cost 15 points and was the basic unit but then Y unit had a load of upgrades and cost the same amount of points, I would call that slightly overpowered. a single Tactical marine costs 16 points but a single Grey Hunter with all it's bonuses costs 15 points. how can that not be overpowered? they can have 2 HQ choices for every 1 HQ slot, OP? like I said originally my main claim was with the long fangs having all those benifit's and cost cheaper than a normal tactical marine, fine they must take a heavy weapon but thats just more power on top. 

they are an original legion so have them better than the bog standard marine sure, but have their points adjust accordingly, the blood angles normal tactical marine is just a bit better than a bog standard one and costs like 4 points more, so how does that make sense?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

its been said a few times now, the reason is basically to make the army unique over other armies.

if you want a fluff reason, its been said too, that the SW use their long fangs for SUPPORT supressive fire and Anti Tank to pop transports so their grey hunters / Blood claws can go in for the kill. The SW dex works very much like a pack of wolves, each unit has a purpose and its not always apparent. and trust me when I say this, Splitting fire, is rarely actually useful without being in a very specific situation that requires the split fire mechanic, which lets face it, never exists.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I have only ever split fire against venom spam. Usually i fire all 15 rockets that the same target, i like to completely obliterate 1 thing at a time. once that dies, i move to the next one. Split fire ir only really useful against light, and i mean very light, armour


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> I have only ever split fire against venom spam. Usually i fire all 15 rockets that the same target, i like to completely obliterate 1 thing at a time. once that dies, i move to the next one. Split fire ir only really useful against light, and i mean very light, armour


when your using rockets, yup


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

all right fair enough, I see peoples points about them being good at what they do, about them being fluff and wolfie and what not. reason why I've carried on this discussion is cause people are saying that a unit that is cheaper but far more better than it's base line equal is fair and not overpowered, now no one can say that it makes sense, when every other SM chapter that has better stuff than the base line has to pay an arm and a leg to field that stuff. 

like in this game that brought up my discussion I countered the armour and such with high AP weapons, I'm gonna take on the counter-attack with high Init units (Banshees) but yeah we'll see how the dice fall for me. 

my over-all discussion is about the quality and power of units that point for point are too cheap for how powerful they are, that's why they've become a top tier army, because model for model they can match the other top tier armies and do it cheaper.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I hardly ever give out rep.

The OP gained as much rep as I could give in one dishing.

Tired of SW fanboys claiming that Long Fangs are fair in any way whatsoever. Ridiculous rule. Perhaps the most ridiculous in the game.

Why, exactly, are SW devastator squads better trained than any other Space Marines? It's a load of shit.

It doesn't actually break the game. It's not an instant win button. It's just annoying and totally lame. Just more SW bumming.

People seem to keep coming to the same conclusion when they witness it. Then they get shot down by the horde of SW fanboys. Thankfully, this is why we have rep.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> all right fair enough, I see peoples points about them being good at what they do, about them being fluff and wolfie and what not. reason why I've carried on this discussion is cause people are saying that a unit that is cheaper but far more better than it's base line equal is fair and not overpowered, now no one can say that it makes sense, when every other SM chapter that has better stuff than the base line has to pay an arm and a leg to field that stuff.


Define "base line"

cuz have you EVER seen SW assault terminators? probably not, why? because SW pay an arm and a leg for them over their SM cousins purely due to being allowed more choices.

Long Fangs are not 'superior' to the SM devistator squads really, since you can add more units to the Dev squads as fodder, which, in itsself makes them better then long fangs since every time you the long fangs take a wound, they lose a heavy weapon, period.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Baltar said:


> I hardly ever give out rep.
> 
> The OP gained as much rep as I could give in one dishing.
> 
> ...


and you hating on the SW as much as you are makes me hate that they removed the - rep button, there is nothing broken about Long fangs being able to split fire, it has too many down falls to even be thought about being used in the first place. if this was about our awsome grey hunters, I wouldnt have as much room to counter you with, but im sorry, but Long Fangs really are really not OP, and you said it yourself, its not breaking the game in any case, and its not an instant win button. but its annoying, for the SW player, to be tempted with a split fire ability that when used almost hinders us more times then helps us!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Long Fangs are not 'superior' to the SM devistator squads really, since you can add more units to the Dev squads as fodder, which, in itsself makes them better then long fangs since every time you the long fangs take a wound, they lose a heavy weapon, period.


That's a nice thing to say, and quite easy, but it's not really true. The ability to split fire is not a slight advantage over a standard Devastator squad, it's a huge one.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> and you hating on the SW as much as you are makes me hate that they removed the - rep button, there is nothing broken about Long fangs being able to split fire, it has too many down falls to even be thought about being used in the first place. if this was about our awsome grey hunters, I wouldnt have as much room to counter you with, but im sorry, but Long Fangs really are really not OP, and you said it yourself, its not breaking the game in any case, and its not an instant win button. but its annoying, for the SW player, to be tempted with a split fire ability that when used almost hinders us more times then helps us!


You didn't read my post at all, did you. Standard.

I never said they were OP, and I actually stated that they did not break anything. You should re-read the post again and then look at your reply to it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You can add more guys to a Devastator squad, yes, but they still cost points. But on the other hand, yes, Wolves DO get Assault Terminators, but they cost points. 4 HQs? How many points is THAT going to cost you?

Midnight


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I don't see how elder a sub standard right now!
90pt gets you T8, W4, S10, which the only reliable way I've found to kill one happens to with wasting 4turns pinking it in the head with a railgun, thus leaving me with no AT support!(wraith lord)
Also for 35pt you get T6, S8, W2 with instant death causing weapons!(wraith guard)
Or for 35pt as well, they get units with 2 S5 AP3 48" range shots!(dark reapers)
There dire avengers are no mean feat either with there 3 shot pulse rifles!
Also rangers rending on 5&6s TO HIT AND TO WOUND! with a 2+ cover save to boot!
Don't diss the eldar, there one of my most feared armies!
Avatars


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Baltar said:


> You didn't read my post at all, did you. Standard.
> 
> I never said they were OP, and I actually stated that they did not break anything. You should re-read the post again and then look at your reply to it.


you didnt 'say' it, but your attitude towards it definately implied it, go re-read your own words, OP is complaining about the pure fact we have this ability, you agree with the OP and give him major praise for ranting about the fact we have an ability we have had since, at least, the third edition SW dex. there is nothing new about the fact long fangs split fire in 5th, we have had that ability since Third edition atleast, but for some reason that makes the Long fangs superior.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> you didnt 'say' it, but your attitude towards it definately implied it, go re-read your own words, OP is complaining about the pure fact we have this ability, you agree with the OP and give him major praise for ranting about the fact we have an ability we have had since, at least, the third edition SW dex. there is nothing new about the fact long fangs split fire in 5th, we have had that ability since Third edition atleast, but for some reason that makes the Long fangs superior.


Actually, one of the major points in the OP's rant was that it was a a very nice bonus which not only was free, but actually saved points. As both GH and LF are better (lots of useful choices and rules) AND they are cheaper than the standard marine equivilants.

I don't think they are OP as such, and I know that the vanilla SM dex is getting dated, but the fact that everyone and their mom seems to include 15 LF in their wolfie army does suggest that they aren't just a "fine and dandy fluff" choice.

At least, that is my observation. But then again, what do I know? I don't play them, and I haven't played much against them.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm not sure the fact that the rule has always been there makes it any more reasonable.

It's as if normal Space Marines in Devastator squads aren't the veterans of hundreds and hundreds of battles. For some reason, it's only true for SW..... Yeah, right....

It's just plain silly.

It's not that OP. Long Fangs are squsihy enough. If we want to talk OP, let's turn our faces towards Arjac and a squad of bad boys he can bring with him...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Re-read the Space Marines Codex. Most Devastators are just one promotion up from Scouts. All Space Marines from Codex Chapters serve in the Devastators, then the Assault Marines, then the Tacticals.

Midnight


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

kiro the avenger! said:


> I don't see how elder a OPed right now!
> 90pt gets you T8, W4, S10, which the only reliable way I've found to kill one happens to with wasting 4turns pinking it in the head with a railgun, thus leaving me with no AT support!(wraith lord)
> Also for 35pt you get T6, S8, W2 with instant death causing weapons!(wraith guard)
> Or for 35pt as well, they get units with 2 S5 AP3 48" range shots!(dark reapers)
> ...


You may want to double check your stats there.
W3 on WL

T6 S5 W1 on wraithguard with a 12' range 1 shot gun that inflicts ID one out of every 9 shots along with being so slow they hardly have a chance in heck of getting in range so the enemy can just avoid them.

Dire avengers have S4 guns and 3 shots means you can't fire next turn.

Dark reapers get blown away incredibly fast unless they are in restricted LoS which restricts their usefulness.

You are fighting a newer dex than yours and feeling pain because of that. Eldar are often fighting newer dexes than they are and feeling the same pain.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I am aware of that, which makes me feel I wasn't clear:

NO space marines from the standard dex, veterans or otherwise, can split fire.

But somehow SW can.

Silly. Very silly.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Baltar said:


> I am aware of that, which makes me feel I wasn't clear:
> 
> NO space marines from the standard dex, veterans or otherwise, can split fire.
> 
> ...


other space marine Vets are built for a very different purpose, and how long do you think a Squad of vetrans actually have been working together for as one unit would be?

Space wolves, unlike other SM chapters, do NOT split their groups up. the "long fangs" are a group of warriors who have been grouped since they were Blood claws, the leader of that group has only changed if the old leader died. the Space wolf squads are literally a small group of warriors who spend every second of every day together, even more so then other SM chapters, they Either prove themselves worthy, or die, together. there are only two exceptions to this, Wolf Guard, and Scouts. Wolf guard are exceptional warriors who have proven themselves worthy to their wolf lord, and Scouts are lone wolf mentalities who dont work well in their groups, so they are moved to the scouts to be with like minded people to scout and do things their own way.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I may come across as harsh here, but i don't give a monkey's fuck. Good players can deal with long fangs, that is a cold hard fact. They are a fragile unit. Shoot them and they die. Tie them up in assault. There are a myriad of ways to kill them or tie them up, So stop bitching, get off the computer and play the damn game.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Lol. What tosh.

I love this thread. It's one of those classic Heresy Online threads where all the SW players come out to plaay-yayyyy.....






SW Long Fangs are like bacon covered in pure melted cheese.

They aren't OP, so it doesn't bother me much. However, if I bother to use a forum, I wouldn't just sit back listen to chatter about the split fire ruling being reasonable without protest. It's an utter load of balls.

By 'reasonable' I mean that there is no reason for them to have that rule over other SM veterans. Or just over other SM's at all, really. I do not mean that they break the game or are OP. They are just..... an SW aggrandising stilton-fest.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I feel, after reading some of these posts, that some people are down-playing the effectiveness of Long Fangs.

They are pretty damn good, and whenever I meet SW players they spam the shit out of them (and amongst those I play against, we generally agree that they are so worth the points costs that it'd be foolish not to make the investment).


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

and we feel, after reading your posts, that you are just a hater against space wolves, since you have never taken the time to actually read the passage of fire control, from the SW codex. and that you have decided to join in with the OP in the hate rant against the Space Wolves just for the Dex being a top tier Codex.

we know they are a top tier codex, we know they are awsome, you can go away now.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

No hate against the SW. Only against the tosh coming from the players.

It's not like the other codices don't have units just as ridiculous. As a BA player, I know the dex is full of them. SW aren't special in that regard.

All I see in this thread is an OP identifying one such unit, and me agreeing with it. SW lovers then get defensive about it for some reason (no idea why).

Now, since we don't have the same opinion, you say I should go away. How childish.

Let's take a look at the argument:

Space marines. Genetically modified super-human warriors, all with potentially decades (or longer) of experience across hundreds of battles. They can't split fire (read as 'they can't choose their own targets individually). But if we paint them grey and give them long beards, THEN they can choose their targets. All the experience of the other space marines - that doesn't count. The extra experience of the grey ones with beards - that does count.

Sound reasonable?

Absolutely not.

With regard to 'top-tier': This, for me, has never been about power level of the unit. You seem to INSIST that I'm arguing that they are OP, or have too much power. I am not. I do not care about the power level of the unit.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Are Long Fangs really good.....yes
Are they Broken.....NO

and it does make sense that they are better then Dev squads fluff wise because they are years maybe even Hundreds of years older then the members of normal SM Dev squads thus they have more tactical knowledge and more experience to put it to use. Your not simply "painting long beards" on a Dev Squad....they have earned those beards over hundreds of years of war.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

hah, ok clearly people aren't reading posts properly. 

I don't have a problem with the split fire rule itself, I think it's great I dont get why the super soldier's of the imperium can't do it anyway when they could in 2nd (I know 2nd it's mental but hey, lets see what 6th brings us). 

My point is that an assault army, and don't sugar coat it, something that is designed to seek out and chop up stuff with multiple attacks and then deal as much hurt out again when the enemy try and fight back is an assault army. 
My point is that the long fangs, grey hunters and everything else are cheaper than standard marines but are better in every way, how can that make sense? yeah there may be units out there better than them, there may be stuff more worth while then them, but those things cost a shit tonne of points and make sense of why they cost that much. 

and people can't say that not splitting fire is not worth-while, have two-three lascannons and two plasma cannons in the unit and you have more fire power than an predator and only cost a little bit more, then unlike that predator can fire the lascannons and one target, having a good chance to take it out, and then fire the two plasmas at a unit of heavy infantry, with a high chance of dealing some major damage, how can that not be good?

and as for the Eldar, again I only really mentioned them because that's what I'm using in the game, but even this far into 5th Ed, and some armies being better and what not... I still really like them, they are a good solid army and can hold their own well enough. I would like to see some freshness in them, some new rules, some rules revised etc. But you know, that's more of a wait and see period, until them I'm more than happy to play with them no matter what BA, SW, DE, GK or IG throw at us, I'm happy to take it and dish it back.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

go read the Fire Control Entry then say its unreasonable. better yet, go read one of my earlier posts where I tell you exactly why they have fire control, and say its unreasonable. fact is, its not unreasonable with the designs of this game, because the fluff and the reasoning is there, just some people obviously dont want to accept it.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

How about this for an idea, people start treating each other with a little respect? If you disagree with something say so, but do it in a reasonable manner.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

"the leaders of long fang packs have trained and fought with the other members of his pack for decades or even centuries. This allows them to direct the Squad's firepower quickly and efficiently"

"The oldest Long Fang of the pack is entrusted with Target selection and directs his brethren's fire where it will do the most good. These Squad leaders can anticipate the flow of battle with uncanny prescience, enabling their men to function more efficiently than a conventional devastator squad"
Pg 28 C:SW

Long fangs, unlike normal devastators, are the oldest of the old in the space wolves. It makes sense that they get a different rule to the BS 5 shite in the other marine codices. Split fire is a cool rule, suits the long fangs based on their fluff


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

And it wouldn't suit Sternguard - *a pure shooty unit* - just as much?

I'm still not seeing any reason why the LF would have this rule *over all other SM units*.

The last part of the sentence is the important one. If you stop reading at 'rule', then the proposition is entirely different.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

oh god, I don't think I have control of this thread anymore :shok::russianroulette:

alright, people can stop hate bashing or whatever, as I've mentioned I dont hate wolves, I dont think their rules are broken... it's just that I started with marines back in the day I know alot of their rules and everything else, but since my friend started playing the Wolves it is the first time I have taken a real close look at the dex (know thy enemy and what not) and again rules or fluff wise they may not be broken, they may be fine and it may suit the way they are... I just think that for how good they are they are too cheap points wise... 

Forget about Long Fangs for a second and lets look at the very core units. a full tactical squad and it's bare basics with 10 men cost 170 points with SM rules and so on... now a full Grey hunter pack of 10 GHs at bare basics cost 150 with SM rules AND more, how does that make sense? the over-all better unit costs better than the thing it was based upon... that is more, over-all discussion here, and thats what makes me go 

on a complete off subject and side note I find it funny that I post a normal topic about something and it most likely makes 3 pages in a fortnight if that... I post a topic arguing against Space Wolves and it makes 6 pages in less than a day, hah... again not hate bashing against anything or anyone, I just find it amusing.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I think the quotes from the codex that i just posted perfectly explain why they have the rule.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> I think the quotes from the codex that i just posted perfectly explain why they have the rule.


That doesn't answer the question.

It explains why they would have the rule. It doesn't explain why they would have the rule over *all other SM units in the entire game*.

It makes no sense.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Ok, on the sternguard vs long fang thing, last I checked sternguard are drawn from all over the chapter and so might be mere aquaintences while long fangs have known each other for centuries increasing their internal coordination and allowing them to pull off crazy stuff.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> hah, ok clearly people aren't reading posts properly.
> 
> I don't have a problem with the split fire rule itself, I think it's great I dont get why the super soldier's of the imperium can't do it anyway when they could in 2nd (I know 2nd it's mental but hey, lets see what 6th brings us).
> 
> ...


Clearly you miss the fact that SW's are giving up staples like Combat Tactics ---> Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, hammernators and the like and instead the bulk of the work is being carried by 1 specific group; namely the Grey Hunters.

All other loyalist marines can combine more flexible units like a Tactical Squad's supporting fire to a charge of assault Termies.
SW's get Grey Hunters to do all that because Blood Claws are only WS3, their termies cost an arm and a leg and their HQ's work out to be more costly for the same build other chapters get as standard.

Does this make SW's weaker? No, it makes them into a totally different animal compared to the other loyalist chapters! SW's get discounts on their staple unit because they lack the sheer flexibility that Space Marines in general are known for. SW's also get special deals like the Long Fang's split fire ability because it's fluffy and because they lack the basic SM rules like Combat Squads _that give that exact same abilty to every other smurf army_!

Space Wolves are simply the Eldar of the loyalist chapters; an army of specialists who are *really* good at their given role, but mediocre to crap at anything else.



LordOfAbsolution said:


> and people can't say that not splitting fire is not worth-while, have two-three lascannons and two plasma cannons in the unit and you have more fire power than an predator and only cost a little bit more, then unlike that predator can fire the lascannons and one target, having a good chance to take it out, and then fire the two plasmas at a unit of heavy infantry, with a high chance of dealing some major damage, how can that not be good?


Clearly, you've never;
a) played against a 10 man devastator squad that uses combat squads and effectively does the same damn thing!

b) are ignoring the fact that killing the squad leader removes the ability altogether!

c) when that squad leader dies, (typically very quickly so as to protect the heavy guns), you can now be facing a very imbalanced squad that will waste expensive weapons that aren't suited to the target the squad is shooting.
(ie: in your 3x Las/2x Plas example, those plasma cannons are pretty poop vs vehicles, while the lascannons are over-costed overkill vs almost any squad the plasmas might target!)


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Samules said:


> Ok, on the sternguard vs long fang thing, last I checked sternguard are drawn from all over the chapter and so might be mere aquaintences while long fangs have known each other for centuries increasing their internal coordination and allowing them to pull off crazy stuff.


Okay, a fair start. So let's look at that for a moment:

"mere aquaintences"

Not impossible, but I find it unlikely. If a space marine is a veteran, serving in a squad of other veterans, then they have likely all been in the chapter for, quite possibly, centuries. I strongly doubt that in hundreds of years, they wouldn't know the other veterans pretty well. Hundreds of years. Think about that phrase for a moment. Note there are only 100 space marines in a first company (typically the veterans). If I gave you only one hundred years to get to know 100 people, you wouldn't have a hard time.

"crazy stuff"

Well, let's slow down a little. The rule isn't that they're allowed to run all the way across the battlefied, hotwire Eldar hover vehicles, and then go kamikaze. They are simply allowed to fire at different targets. Hardly crazy. If we take Sternguard as an example, they are put together to form a shooting unit. A unit made of veterans, too. Why wouldn't they be allowed to shoot at different targets, exactly? Is there a specific reason why any unit such as that, would not be allowed to do so, where SW would?

I doubt it. The codex was simply written in isolation from the others (as ALL codices are), and that's why there is a single unit able to split fire across all space marines.

It's exactly the same reason why BA can deep strike a land raider.

Are BA the only ones with a Thunderhawk vehicle transporter? No. Was their codex written in isolation from the others? Yes. Does this make the rule seem a tad ridiculous, considering it basically says 'well, if you paint it red, you can deep strike it. If not, you can't'? Yes.

Does exactly the same principle apply to the SW long fangs? Yes.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> Clearly you miss the fact that SW's are giving up staples like Combat Tactics ---> Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, hammernators and the like and instead the bulk of the work is being carried by 1 specific group; namely the Grey Hunters.
> 
> All other loyalist marines can combine more flexible units like a Tactical Squad's supporting fire to a charge of assault Termies.
> SW's get Grey Hunters to do all that because Blood Claws are only WS3, their termies cost an arm and a leg and their HQ's work out to be more costly for the same build other chapters get as standard.
> ...


All right I see your point that they don't get things like combat squads or combat tactics, fair enough.. but if anyone wanted to claim fluff on it then Wolves would never automatically fail a morale check anyway, it's not in their nature so in it's place they get an additional +2 attacks for every first round of every assault phase no matter what, and be cheaper, 'cause somehow that balances it out. if we were to throw the codex astartes under the bus for a minute and say that fluff wise they fight like the original legions, then let's compared them to a standard chaos marine. they both get bolt pistol and CC weapon but, oh wait... chaos don't have Acute Sense, Counter-attack or ATSKNF but cost the same points as a Grey hunter? alright 'cause that makes sense. 



> Clearly, you've never;
> a) played against a 10 man devastator squad that uses combat squads and effectively does the same damn thing!
> 
> b) are ignoring the fact that killing the squad leader removes the ability altogether!
> ...


and as for Devastators' in combat squads being just as good I'm going to have to pull you up on that as being so, so wrong... 

a) combat squads only work if you have TEN-MAN squads, you can't take a six-man squad and split it so straight away those ten devastator's cost more.

b) if you were to split them into two five-man squads they would only have two heavy weapons in, and still not be able to split their fire or counter-attack or anything else, sure they would have a few spare marines to take shots, but then your spending 16 points on fodder, so again Long fangs still end up cheaper. 

so again my arguement is, point for point the Wolves still outmatch other chapters, legions, etc. take rules away, add rules whatever.. I don't think giving up combat squads (which makes you pay for points) and combat tactics is worth being able to split fire and counter attack.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I find it funny how much hate the split fire aspect is getting, the guy that gives this ability to my longfangs is always the first to die. I find it much much more effective to shoot everything at one target. As to having it over other units in other codexes..... I would trade it for cheap effective atkbikes, sternguard, and other assorted fun and games from other codexs in a heartbeat.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The Long Fangs are bonded like pure blood brothers, they have fought together from their initiation the the chapter right through to their veteranship. Each pack is a self contained fighting force. Casualties in space wolf packs are not replaced. It is why blood claw packs are larger than GH packs, and why GH packs are larger than long fang packs. The long fangs fight are intuitive to each other in a way that Veterans drawn from separate squads can not be


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

There is a difference between knowing someone at work and living with them 24/7. Any time there is a normal vet he probably spent about half his career in his original company and then spends only about half of his time with his new squad mates. So no matter what a long fang has spent at least 4 times as much time in contact with his squad as a normal vet. And regular vets CAN split there fire they just have to be divided into 2 groups (combat squads) long fangs just have the coordination to do this without being split into different fire teams beforehand.

And blood angels can deep strike a LR because they specifically train dedicated pilots to drop them from thunderhawks into a battle in such a way that they are unlikely to be damaged. Not because they are painted red. And they have stormravens because they spend more time maintaining a significant force of them rather than jusrt bringing them out occasionally. (you can take units from another codex in apoc games so yes others have access to them.)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> oh god, I don't think I have control of this thread anymore :shok::russianroulette:
> 
> alright, people can stop hate bashing or whatever, as I've mentioned I dont hate wolves, I dont think their rules are broken... it's just that I started with marines back in the day I know alot of their rules and everything else, but since my friend started playing the Wolves it is the first time I have taken a real close look at the dex (know thy enemy and what not) and again rules or fluff wise they may not be broken, they may be fine and it may suit the way they are... I just think that for how good they are they are too cheap points wise...
> 
> ...


looking at Grey hunters, comapred to a tac squad, the hunters are designed for a more close combat role, thus lacking the heavy weapon. they do not have Combat Tactics, and they do not have combat squading. they do not have a sargent.

a tac squad is given a sargent from the start, they do not have acute senses, counter attack, or a chain sword at base, and they cost a point more then grey hunters.

Grey hunters are superior and yes, they cost less, they are a very useful and competitive unit.

The thing alot of people neglect is that, even though SW and SM are similar, the two armies, from a gameplay point are completely seperate armies, completely seperate entities as a whole, and each has its advantages (i can think of quite a few things the SM dex has over the SW one I would love to have in the SW dex) and disadvantages. and to only directly compare, say, SM tac squad, to the SW grey hunters, without accounting for the over priced SW termies, the over priced Wolf Lord, and the plethora of missing units from the SM codex from the SW one. 

point is, every codex has something going for it, the SW have awsome infantry in Grey hunters and Long Fangs (even if the long fangs are Devistators without the cannon fodder)


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

yeah mcmuffin I get the fluff behind it, it's like the black templars. They don't have scouts they have initiates train neophytes on a one to one basis, so the neophytes learn from the best in the army and it forms a stronger bond between the battle brothers, I love that fluff for the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, I don't know about the others but that's not what I'm questioning here. 

I'm questioning (now anyway the topic and gone off the rails) that game-wise they are still better and cheaper than most other marines, which back to fluff-wise makes sense that they are better, I know the Wolves of Russ are awesome hell they are Vikings in space, there's a reason why the Guard named their main battle tank after Russ and not Sanguinius or Dorn.

my problem is game-wise if we take the best of the the main Space marine chapters and compare them, that's where it's goes wrong...
a) a basic Vanguard squad before upgrades costs 250 points for 10 men -
a basic termie squad of ten men before upgrades costs 400 points (they are the two best units in the core marines.

b) a basic vanguard blood angel squad with 10 men before any upgrades costs 215 -
a sanguinary squad of 5 men (the maximum they can take) with no upgrades costs 200 points. also note sanguinary guard loss all standard marine rules and have fearless and the red thirst

c) now take 10 Wolf guard before upgrades of any kind cost 180 points (and note any wolf guard can split off to become pack leaders of other squads) -
then take 10 Wolf guard and upgrade them to termie armour with no other upgrades other than the storm bolter and power weapon they get with the termie armour costs 330 points.

that's what I find messed up.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

To make SW termies into th/ss termies that are so loved in codex marines you will pay much much more though.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> I may come across as harsh here, but i don't give a monkey's fuck. Good players can deal with long fangs, that is a cold hard fact. They are a fragile unit. Shoot them and they die. Tie them up in assault. There are a myriad of ways to kill them or tie them up, So stop bitching, get off the computer and play the damn game.


I agree. If you play a shooty list (like eldar) that can't kill 5 marines in cover then you are doing something wrong. It is quite standard to ask yourself when making a list "Can I kill a 10 man tac squad in cover in 1 round?"
That said, my opponents are usually busy with other threats I sling at them. Dunno why people use their ranged anti tank on them so seldom. Take away the fangs and I actually have to come towards you, not the other way around.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> If you play a shooty list (like eldar) that can't kill 5 marines in cover then you are doing something wrong. It is quite standard to ask yourself when making a list "Can I kill a 10 man tac squad in cover in 1 round?"


yeah I get what you mean, and in my original post (or at least on the first page, I've written so many today) I mentioned that I had a pathfinders and a lot of high AP weapons to deal with the Wolves and Grey Knights, the only problem is for this actual game is that my deployment zone ended in the middle (triple threat after all someone had to be kind of in the middle, are deployment zones are all 2' away from each other) and I'm fighting termie heavy armies = two wolf guard termie squads lead by Logan and Njal and in the grey knights and 10 man paladin squad lead by Draigo, and they are getting pretty close to me, so I have to deal with priority, hah. but yeah in the game itself I had to end up tank shocking the Long fangs with my fire prism due to it's prism cannon being knocked out by a lascannon. So in the game itself I feel like I'm nicely holding my own. :biggrin:


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

scscofield said:


> I find it funny how much hate the split fire aspect is getting, the guy that gives this ability to my longfangs is always the first to die. I find it much much more effective to shoot everything at one target. As to having it over other units in other codexes..... I would trade it for cheap effective atkbikes, sternguard, and other assorted fun and games from other codexs in a heartbeat.


This. 

Also, if there's this much discussion over split fire, I'd hate to see the rant over Jaws!

Besides, who cares about Long Fangs, I want my Leman Russ Exterminator back!!!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Jaws? It's nice. OP? Doubt it.

Arjac. That's where the OP is at.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

To take Arjac you have to spend 194 points..... 188 for him and 2 x 18 for two other WGP to make a unit of them. I love the guy but yeah......194 points at least...


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Well if you are playing a "free for all" 3-man game, then you can't really count it as a standard game where you have the usual tactical options 

Oh, and Arjac is terribad


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

As a matter of interest and somewhat Off Topic., Lord Of Absolution, you said you were fielding Shadow Spectres in your Eldar Army.
Which rules are you using for them, the Downloadable PDF from Forge World or the set in Imperial Armour 11: The Doom Of Mymeara?
How have they fared in your experience?

And no, I am not going to pick you up on the fact that you are fielding a Unit that can also split its fire whilst berating your opponents ability to do the same.
I'll let that one slide, I just want your take on those gorgeous Forge World models in action...


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

scscofield said:


> To take Arjac you have to spend 194 points..... 188 for him and 2 x 18 for two other WGP to make a unit of them. I love the guy but yeah......194 points at least...


Yeah, but compare him to something of a higher points cost and he can seem cheap.

Take a look at Dante, for example. No EW. 225 points without a squad.

Gimme Arjac any day. He's an utter bad boy.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

I haven't got the IG:11 book yet I'm using the snippet image from the forgeworld webiste, you can read it enough to know what it's all saying and even though I was a bit iffy on the whole for every 2 increase it by so much etc. (the biggest change from the download rules) they are still faring pretty well, we're on about turn 3, starting 4th and I haven't taken a single wound on them, their speed and such is wonderful and again still a little iffy on the ghostlights range and damage reduction for the points cost but all in all I do quiet like them. I'm using Irillyth with them btw, massive, awesome help.

but where can we split our fire? the ghostlight only combines it into one shot doesn't it, and I dont see anything else that allows them to split?:scratchhead:


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

In the downloadable PDF the Exarch could target separately to the squad.
Now I'm looking in IA11 and can't see that rule carried over.
I'm going to check the Forgeworld site, I'm pretty certain that it got made official.
I'll get back to you on that.

As for my experience with them, they are far better now as opposed to the Experimental Rules. They always make their points back and a nuisance of themselves, to boot.
I've not gotten around to fielding the Phoenix Lord yet though.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Baltar said:


> Yeah, but compare him to something of a higher points cost and he can seem cheap.
> 
> Take a look at Dante, for example. No EW. 225 points without a squad.
> 
> Gimme Arjac any day. He's an utter bad boy.


More often than not I would rather spend the points elsewhere. The issue I constantly have with SW lists is the fact that anything other than RP, GH, LF spam eats up points very very quickly. About the only time I even consider Arjac is in 2000+ games, he just costs way too much to rate using in smaller games.

If he was a HQ choice I would field him a lot, but comparing him to Dante doesnt work, he is not a HQ. Yes he is a strong unit but he is a upgrade unit like Chronus and Telion from codex marines. His stats are great but I can't stomach spending the points for another whole unit of figures on one guy more often than not.

Im curious, Baltar what codex do you play? I can pretty much rant about the majority of the codexs in one way or another. They all have things that make them unique from others and more often than not those unique aspects are what cause hate from other players.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

BA player.

Plenty to rant about there.

Not that I ever win any games with it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Arjac's throwing hammer followed by Jaws is my solution to any Eternal warrior or T6 or more things that come my way. I really like him in 1k and 2k games, anything in between he doesnt work.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Tell yah what Baltar, I'll trade yah LF, Arjac and whatever else for that FnP/FC bubble


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Doesn't pretty much every person in the SW have FC anyway?


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## Robfu (Feb 14, 2012)

What the OP might be missing is the fact that they are old space wolf veterans. I.E. They have become long in the tooth. They are all commanders in there own right. They are old warriors that get to sit at the back of the battle line and fire their big guns and drink and actually make bets on targets to shoot at during battle. They actually didn't add enough fluff to the rules to represent this.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Baltar said:


> Doesn't pretty much every person in the SW have FC anyway?


Only Ragnar gives it to SW and there is no way to get FnP at all in the codex.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

nah they all have counter-attack, Ragnar gives all SW units within 12" Furious charge in the assault phase, don't know if anyone else gives them it but yeah.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Lone wolves have feel no pain, that is as good as it gets. only Ragnar, as stated above gives the furious charge ability. I would much rather blood claws got furious charge over berzerk charge anyway.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Would actually field blood claws if they had FC.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

FC is an awesome addition. FnP is over-rated.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

My brother in law plays jumper BA lists, without the fnp/fc bubble they would be meh at best. The cost of the unit for what it gives is great, if I could tie that to my lists it would for the most part be a autowin. My point was each codex has things that make them shine compared to others.

I have been tring to do something other than LF/GH spam with RP support and on average it just gimps the shit out of my lists not having those units in them. The reason you see so much of that type of spam in SW lists is because those units out shine the rest of the codex so much.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Baltar said:


> FC is an awesome addition. FnP is over-rated.


WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! Feel no pain on space marines is probably the most useful ability possible. Small arms fire and regular close combat attacks just bounce off, halving the amount of casualties you take. BA can have FNP TH/SS terminators. They become unstoppable.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! Feel no pain on space marines is probably the most useful ability possible. Small arms fire and regular close combat attacks just bounce off, halving the amount of casualties you take. BA can have FNP TH/SS terminators. They become unstoppable.


I assure you, that's a bit of an exaggeration. It's good, but it's not what it seems.

The problem lies with the fact that since the units are expensive in the first place, the FnP alone doesn't always make up for a lack of numbers.

Give me a squad of 30 plain Boyz without FnP against more or less any troop BA choice with FnP of equivalent points cost any day.

As mentioned above, when you start adding FnP to beast units like TH/SS termies, then there's something to write home about. Other than that, you gain a necessary advantage that is very much needed in order to compensate for having only a handful of marines.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Fair enough yes, but what i said is not an exaggeration. for each failed save you will pass one FNP, halving the amount of casualties you take


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Fun fact about a unit with feel know pain, it takes on average 200 IG laz rifle shots to kill 2-4 plague marines.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

It's Mephiston that you want to be giving FnP to. Toughness 6. A beast.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Cause mephiston get so many non ap1/2 wounds slung at him anyway :3


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Fun fact about a unit with feel know pain, it takes on average 200 IG laz rifle shots to kill 2-4 plague marines.


You're also shooting T5 models that you wound on 5s. It's not really a surprise that it takes a long time to kill that many Plague Marines with lasguns. That's why Guard get Autocannons.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> You're also shooting T5 models that you wound on 5s. It's not really a surprise that it takes a long time to kill that many Plague Marines with lasguns. That's why Guard get Autocannons.


Pretty sure you're wounding on 6's, not 5's.


Captain Nitpick, Away!


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

It takes precisely seventy-two lasgun shots to down a plague marine on average.

(BTW it's easier to work backwards for this stuff, e.g. 2 shots to get through FNP x3 to get through the armor x6 to wound x 2 to hit)


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Samules said:


> It takes precisely seventy-two lasgun shots to down a plague marine on average.
> 
> (BTW it's easier to work backwards for this stuff, e.g. 2 shots to get through FNP x3 to get through the armor x6 to wound x 2 to hit)


Wrong it takes 72 shots to cause 0.999896 wounds on average.....Numbers!


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Hmm it seems you have rounding errors.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yeah, a BA player complaining about the SW codex being unfair... that is golden... yeah no ones going to take you seriously anymore Baltar, sorry, but the BA codex has a mass of stuff thats unfair for them to have far more then the SW dex.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

This whole thread is _'golden'_ ... really.
Just a massive space marine chapter dick comparison contest, and some whining about_ 'unfair' _things, duh.

Reminds me of the six people I saw at the gaming tables last week ... all six arrayed around one (standard size) table, which was cluttered with miniatures on all sides (and *no*, it was not a nice game of Apocalypse). The six would then proceed to _'play'_, and between mumbles like ... _'Space Wolves roxxors' _... _'Mephiston's the bigges' meanie'_ ... _'see my Lashy Daemon Prince'_ ... and _'Draigowing rulez'_ ... would then toss literal buckets full of dice all over the place and at each other, and then proceed to remove models in a seemingly random fashion.

If I remember correctly, I merely turned and smirked ...

Yet, there's always hoping that the supposed 6th edition will bring back some more of a tactical element into this game. Otherwise, I just might move on to WHFB for good.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Pretty sure you're wounding on 6's, not 5's.
> 
> 
> Captain Nitpick, Away!


You are correct, I posted while half-awake last night and misremembered the wounding table. But that just further makes me point about the autocannons. :biggrin:



Sworn Radical said:


> Yet, there's always hoping that the supposed 6th edition will bring back some more of a tactical element into this game. Otherwise, I just might move on to WHFB for good.


I'm hoping it brings back the viability of the all foot armies. At the same time I don't want to see it take away the viability of tanks, so you can say I'd to have my cake and eat it too.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

I wish for more tactics as well, there is obviously the simple, if I move here and shoot this or charge here and kill this tactics. but I feel that Assault is the biggest part in 5th ed. and it's a game set in the 41st millennium, they have weapons that can destroy entire planets, yet it seems that in most table top games in 40k its the guy with the best big and point stick that wins.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

That is incorrect, the phase in which the most damage is done is the shooting phase. The phase in which the game is won or lost is the movement phase. If you want to see overpowered assault, take a look at 4th ed. Consolidate into combat was ridiculous


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> That is incorrect, the phase in which the most damage is done is the shooting phase. The phase in which the game is won or lost is the movement phase. If you want to see overpowered assault, take a look at 4th ed. Consolidate into combat was ridiculous


Pure truth.

Anyone remember when Genestealers could essentially 'hop' from one combat to another, purely because they had chased someone down, mangled them, and then ended up being close enough to another unit in order to immediately advance into combat with it?

I do. It wasn't fun for anyone else.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

ah yeah true enough, maybe it just seems it cause a number of the top tiers now are assault themed, all right they do have a fair bit of dakka in them but a lot of battle reports I've seen in around win due to good assault but yeah. Don't get me wrong I don't want it to be like, the armies stand in a line and shoot at each other all day, heh. Maybe I just don't play against enough shooting armies, most seem to do everything they can to get into assault cause thats where they do best, who knows.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> ah yeah true enough, maybe it just seems it cause a number of the top tiers now are assault themed, all right they do have a fair bit of dakka in them but a lot of battle reports I've seen in around win due to good assault but yeah. Don't get me wrong I don't want it to be like, the armies stand in a line and shoot at each other all day, heh. Maybe I just don't play against enough shooting armies, most seem to do everything they can to get into assault cause thats where they do best, who knows.


thats a lie.

SW - their best list is Razorspam a very shooty based list.
Dark Eldar - their 'top tier' list is venom spam, which is another very shooty based list.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

SW razorspam is dead. the best SW armies have large units of GH in Rhinos at their core, maybe one or two razorbacks with small units to hold the backfield. But yeas, the most competitive builds are all about shooting.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> SW razorspam is dead. the best SW armies have large units of GH in Rhinos at their core, maybe one or two razorbacks with small units to hold the backfield. But yeas, the most competitive builds are all about shooting.


and why do you claim razorspam to be dead? its still one of the most effective builds for sub 2k armies.

I ran GH in large groups in rhinos (7 - 8 GH in a rhino) trust me, razorback spam is still more effective if used right.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> SW razorspam is dead. the best SW armies have large units of GH in Rhinos at their core, maybe one or two razorbacks with small units to hold the backfield. But yeas, the most competitive builds are all about shooting.


You just made my day. Lol. Sorry, but large grey hunter squads are terrible. And so is the razorspam variant. 
Why can't people ever realise that a 5 man squad + wolf guard, with a melta and a combimelta, in a rhino, is enough? Why can't you just take some razors, instead of on all the units...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Tossidin said:


> You just made my day. Lol. Sorry, but large grey hunter squads are terrible. And so is the razorspam variant.
> Why can't people ever realise that a 5 man squad + wolf guard, with a melta and a combimelta, in a rhino, is enough? Why can't you just take some razors, instead of on all the units...


Because the internet pushes spam, so it must be true!

Seriously, I'm tired of seeing spam lists everywhere. Yes they're an easy way to build a list but after the third or fourth time playing against Razorspam or Venomspam you kind of want to see something else across from you on the table.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Zion said:


> Because the internet pushes spam, so it must be true!
> 
> Seriously, I'm tired of seeing spam lists everywhere. Yes they're an easy way to build a list but after the third or fourth time playing against Razorspam or Venomspam you kind of want to see something else across from you on the table.


I agree generally, but tahts why most of my lists are hybrids that focus half and half on CC and shooting.

Example is that my DE lists generally use 2 squads of Wyches and some venom riding trueborn, its a variation of the venom spam, yes, but it also shows something new when im not using 7+ venoms. I have also never run Razorback spam despite it generally being superior to my current setup for my wolves.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> I agree generally, but tahts why most of my lists are hybrids that focus half and half on CC and shooting.
> 
> Example is that my DE lists generally use 2 squads of Wyches and some venom riding trueborn, its a variation of the venom spam, yes, but it also shows something new when im not using 7+ venoms. I have also never run Razorback spam despite it generally being superior to my current setup for my wolves.


Hybrids are fine, as is a couple duplicate units (say 3-4), but when you're sitting across the table from 9 Venoms over and over again I'd rather just pack up and not bother.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> You just made my day. Lol. Sorry, but large grey hunter squads are terrible. And so is the razorspam variant.
> Why can't people ever realise that a 5 man squad + wolf guard, with a melta and a combimelta, in a rhino, is enough? Why can't you just take some razors, instead of on all the units...


No, a 6 man unit is not good enough. It can't play to its advantages, but maintains all the disadvantages of the unit. 

this is a good list


HQ
Rune Priest
Rune Priest

Elites
5 Wolf Guard: 4 Power Fists, 5 Combi Melta
5 Wolf Scouts: Meltagun
5 Wolf Scouts: Meltagun 

Troops
7 Grey Hunters: Wolf Standard, Meltagun, Rhino
7 Grey Hunters: Wolf Standard, Meltagun, Rhino
7 Grey Hunters: Wolf Standard, Meltagun, Rhino
7 Grey Hunters: Wolf Standard, Meltagun, Rhino
Heavy Support

6 Long Fangs: 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
6 Long Fangs: 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
6 Long Fangs: 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Gun
1850pts

keeps it simple, the troops units, which a designed to be aggressive, are big enough to pump out bolter shots and make an impact on MEQ, and still maintain the ability to beat the piss out of other troops units in most codices

This is the list i am currently running, and it works perfectly, but i am tempted to go for even more grey hunters. 

As for the razorbacks. GH units are an aggressive unit, razorbacks suit a more defensive style of play


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Edit: NinjaMuffin :3
That list isn't good. I don't say that it doesn't work, but in a competitive setting it just doesn't cut it.


I dunno, both razorspam and venomspam are quite bad lists. 

Multiples of the same unit is usually good, but you can take it only so far before it comes at the loss of other important aspects of your army.

For example, at 1750 I use 4 of this unit:
Grey hunters (5) w/ Meltagun, wolf guard with combimelta, Rhino
Having 4 of it works really nice, but if I was to get more then I would lose out on speeders/long fangs/scouts or something else that is important in the army


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Tossidin said:


> I dunno, both razorspam and venomspam are quite bad lists.
> 
> Multiples of the same unit is usually good, but you can take it only so far before it comes at the loss of other important aspects of your army.
> 
> ...


Venomspam features a lot of cheap vehicles, blasters (short range lances), and Ravagers to give them the longer range anti-vehicle/monstrous creature weapons. Unlike Razorspam you aren't losing anything in the end because you've got ways to mass kill troops (Splinter Weapons), and to kill tanks (dark lances) and you have a LOT of them on fast skimmers (so they get to move 12" and shoot).


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Venom spam is still one of the best lists out there at the minute. 3 ravagers, 4x units of warriors in a venom, 3x units of trueborn with blasters in a venom, a raider full of wyches and an archon, and some reavers/ hellions to taste. That is ia solid tournament list.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Venom spam is still one of the best lists out there at the minute. 3 ravagers, 4x units of warriors in a venom, 3x units of trueborn with blasters in a venom, a raider full of wyches and an archon, and some reavers/ hellions to taste. That is ia solid tournament list.


It is solid, but not great.

Except for the 3 ravagers (guess what I will target), all your anti tank is at 18''. That just puts you way too close, considering you are riding paper planes.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> It is solid, but not great.
> 
> Except for the 3 ravagers (guess what I will target), all your anti tank is at 18''. That just puts you way too close, considering you are riding paper planes.


thats why I run 3 ravagers and 2 raiders ontop of the Venoms, gives me abit more range and makes people second guess their Target priority. and you take out major threats turn one with the ranged weapons (dev / LF squads, other on foot units with the venoms, tanks with the raiders / ravagers) and try to deal with transports with the blasters if they get in range early, then deal with the contents the turn after.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

are all the space wolves players here atm also Dark Eldar players or something?


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

No, I just play against them regularly


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> are all the space wolves players here atm also Dark Eldar players or something?


>.> they are my only two 40k armies, others Im not so sure about, I wanted a Xeno army, got DE, wanted my space wolves because they are the only imperium army Ill play (for fluff more then their OPness, id play em even if they sucked... actually id play them more if they sucked, i like challenges)


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> It is solid, but not great.
> 
> Except for the 3 ravagers (guess what I will target), all your anti tank is at 18''. That just puts you way too close, considering you are riding paper planes.


The anti-tank range is actually 24", which is more than enough given the mobility of DE. Good luck killing all those vehicles, with night shields, flicker fields and cover saves, as well as the ability to hide pretty much the entire army behind LOS blocking terrain for a turn, next turn they come out and throw 150 poisoned shots into your long fangs. It is why DE are a tough match up for wolves


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> The anti-tank range is actually 24", which is more than enough given the mobility of DE. Good luck killing all those vehicles, with night shields, flicker fields and cover saves, as well as the ability to hide pretty much the entire army behind LOS blocking terrain for a turn, next turn they come out and throw 150 poisoned shots into your long fangs. It is why DE are a tough match up for wolves


Played well DE are a tough match for anyone. And with their vehicles being fast that anti-vehicle is upwards to 36".


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Ah 24'' right. Same point though.

Yes, they are a wery tough matchup for wolves, but wolves aren't all the armies out there


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Zion said:


> Played well DE are a tough match for anyone. And with their vehicles being fast that anti-vehicle is upwards to 36".


unfortunately, its not, you cant disembark after moving flat out, and passengers cant shoot out of a vehicle, even open topped after it moves over 6"


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> unfortunately, its not, you cant disembark after moving flat out, and passengers cant shoot out of a vehicle, even open topped after it moves over 6"


True. But there are weapons on the vehicles. Additionally the Dark Lances have a 36" + 12" move means they have a 48" threat range on a highly mobile platform. Which means they can threaten vehicles pretty much every turn, and when they pop them the Venoms like to unload with their Splinter Cannons (also effectively a 48" range) making this army a superb glass hammer. Sure they fly on paper plates, and are T3, but when played by someone who knows how to play them they get nasty REALLY early in the game and then work on setting the pace there. Venomspam lists do that even better, but I think it loses quite a bit of flavor when it's done like that. But that's just me. I'm not a fan of taking large numbers of any one thing, and hate automatic choices (I'm looking at you Hive Guard) so I might just sound bitter, but I think some of the best competitive armies I've seen and enjoyed playing against brought a diversity in their list that let them cope with just about anything and looked good on the table too.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

well for the Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and blood angel players in this thread, I'm starting a 40k campaign on Sunday with friends at my house. The current armies that I know are playing are the those three as well as Imperial Guard and Grey Knights, I'm playing Eldar.

So even though it's going against armies that you play, can you give me pointers or ideas on how to combat those armies with Eldar? I have pretty much every army in the Eldar codex apart from Dark Reapers.

Our starting armies are going to be 750 points each but that will increase during the course of the battle, any advice and help would be great (besides the battle we're currently playing I haven't played against the new SW, DE or BA codices yet).


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Long fangs will die to massed fire, so get your dire avengers up there fast and bladestorm the shit out of them. Warp Spiders and war walkers are also good at killing long fangs. I would go all reserve and speed onto the board in later turns, getting cover saves and also getting into range to cap and contest some objectives.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Get those scatter lasers onto the field, torrent infantry and tanks alike. Especially DE are weak vs str 6. The blood angel player may have FNP, so a fire prism would go a long way to help you. Also, against IG tanks you need to get side shots, which should be possible with your speed. AV14 is a possible opponent, and only meltaguns will solve it (autarch or dragons), though depending on which variant it can be possible to ignore it.
Remember you need cheap units to get the most firepower. I would go with units like:

Doomseer or fusiongun autarch (if u wanna play reserves)
Dire avengers (5) in a scatterlaser/shur cannon serpent x2
Fire prism/war walkers x"x"

rest of the points is up to you. Beef up avengers if you feel its needed, or whatevs


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The guy at my store that plays eldar loves eldrach (think thats his name) trundling along with these high toughness guys that shoot plasma type weapons. Fortune, doom, guide spam can be annoying.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Eldrad Ulthran with Wraithlords I guess. 
Eldrad is too expensive for 750, costing 210 points, but a wraithlord with scatter/shur can would actually be a nice additison. Forgot them since they don't work so well at higher points, but in lower they should actually work fine.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Space marines die to massed fire as everyone else has said. War walkers, Vipers, Dire Avengers all pour out shots! I hate to say it, but Quantity over quality of shots. Make a space marine roll a bunch of dice and watch him fail armor saves. 

And at your origonal post. Yes they can split fire, but so can a lot of other things! Land raiders, any black templars vehicle has the option for Power of the machine spirit too so they can split fire, Tau suits have a split fire peice ofwargear. The space wolves codex may seem overpowered in some aspects but are balanced out in others, the long fangs for example cant take more than 6 bodies and each wound caused drops their effectiveness far more than say that 10 man devi squad someone else has combat squadded that can "split fire" kinda too.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Long fangs have virtually no free wounds so hit them first as every unsaved wounds drops their effectiveness by around 25%. Then run away from the rest while laying down fire from beyond 24".


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> For instance no other walker in the game has the ability to cause 10+ wounds on infantry, but BA blood talon dreads can.


Penitent engines can... :wink:


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Not to mention that causing 10+ wounds with Blood Talons almost never happens simply because CC is so shit.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Baltar said:


> Not to mention that causing 10+ wounds with Blood Talons almost never happens simply because CC is so shit.


CC shit? Tell that to necrons when they laugh at most gun lines complete inability to stop them from reaching rapid fire range. Keeping that in mind please explain how one of the most deadly phases in warhammer 40k is shit? (Note many a guard army and tau army would find your statement and at odds with reality)

Seriously are you just trolling or do you actually have justification to back up your seemingly insane statement?


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

CC may not be shit, but shooting is much much much stronger


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Relatively, CC is shit. It is a dead loss when compared with shooting. Statistically, it's the most ineffective way to kill enemy troops. Since there are only two ways to do that: Shooting or CC, then we can say it's shit.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

CC isnt shit though, and, though shooting CAN be better, the counter to shooting alot of times is CC. look at the mainly shooty armies, IG, Tau, and Venom Spam DE. they are not made durable for close combat, and it shows. CC has its place, and is not shit, its just not as 'effective' as shooting in some ways.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes, but that's like saying that CC isn't shit because you can use it to prevent your enemy from shooting. In other words, you don't want them to shoot because it's the most effective way of killing. By comparison, CC is poor at best. To win at CC, you actually have to count on your enemy being worse in CC than you are. That's not the case with shooting.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Shooting is better, how can that even be a question? Tell me what is good about cc compared to shooting please


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Baltar said:


> Yes, but that's like saying that CC isn't shit because you can use it to prevent your enemy from shooting. In other words, you don't want them to shoot because it's the most effective way of killing. By comparison, CC is poor at best. To win at CC, you actually have to count on your enemy being worse in CC than you are. That's not the case with shooting.


yes, and no.

shooting is 'better' due to the whole enemy attacks back stipulation, but CC has its uses, one of which is to prevent a unit from shooting, yes.

but you have to remember, that though shooting does not bring retaliation on the same turn, your enemy is not forced to have the same if their units are stuck in combat (which happens alot in the games I play), plus the fact CC specialists can reach 3 - 4 attacks per model, depending on the unit, and shooting attacks for 90% of enemies only get 1 to 2 shots per model, occasionally 3. meaning on a general basis, Close combat has more chances to take a wound. add to that close combat resolving can cause more wounds if said lost unit is fearless or would count as fearless, or if they run and get caught up in a sweeping advance, that can wipe out entire units in a single move.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

"Close combat has more chances to take a wound"

I doubt the actual concrete statistics would back this up, in general.

Bear in mind that a lot of what you said sounds like it balances CC with shooting - but then when you bring, say, blast or template weapons into the question, then the scales are immediately tipped in favour of shooting again.

Unfortunately, it's far easier in terms of what must be rolled on the dice to kill units by shooting at them that it is to do it in CC. On average, anyway.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

But then you bring in power weapons and the like and realize that 50%+ percent of the time the enemy will be in cover then you start to see why CC is so much more deadly then shooting this edition (sweeping advance means my 10 man marine squad can kill a 40 man gaurd squad by killing 3-4 gaurdman).

Only armies that are built around shooting really view shooting as the better option as marines with bolters will on average kill 2-4 guardsmen in cover for all 20 of their bolter shots, while even a battle cannon will only kill 4-5 marines if it doesn't scatter (assuming average cover as I have never allowed a opponent a un-obscured shot at my forces thanks to rhino craters.). (Note a competent opponent will almost never let you get a shot at them without cover this edition)

Case in point: All shooty marines and vinella marine armies rarly do well. As do shooty orc, and even shooty nids (This edition). Case is only some armies can pull of the over generalization that shooting is better and those are guard, tau, necrons. All other armies shine when they are the least hybrids or even when they are dedicated assault/short range.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

"CC is so much more deadly then shooting this edition"

Yeah, that's just plain wrong. The stats (i.e., plain and simple maths) will always show that shooting is more effective on average than CC.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

CC occurs in both players turns, whilst shooting does not. That gives you a pretty massive increase in the amount of possibles wounds when you take into account ongoing assaults. So in a single turn I'd say that CC can cause more damage.

Having said that I still agree with Baltar; A well positioned 'shooty' army can shoot most turns of the game, whereas CC units will typically only be able to fight in a single significant combat each game.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

This is kinda pointless to whine about, Space wolves have a few nice tricks yah, but there by no means the hardest to beat army out there man just learn to play against there strength and out smart the enemy player then they will fall like bricks.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

didn't realise this thread was still going, hah. Well the game ended. Over all I won but with a great cost.

My army (Eldar) - took down a total of 4 units (earning me 4 kill points) but I lost 5 units...
- Lost my fire dragons to some fire from paladins at the front and wolf guard fire from the flank.
- Farseer and Dire Avengers (after dealing and taking a beating, went down to Psycannons.
- Other Dire Avengers went fled off the board after a poor Ld test.
- And lost my Banshees after some really bad luck in an assault phase against Njal and the Wolf Guard.

That left me on the board with a weapon-less Fire prism that was Tank Shocking and Ramming everything for the fun of it, Irillyth and 1 Shadow Spectre, a half a squad of Path finders and the Banshees Wave Serpent.

The Space Wolves lost 2 units in total. 
-Njal and his Wolf Guard buddies went down from some Path finder, Shadow Spectre and Star cannon fire power.

With the timely aid of a purifier squad of the GKs the Long fangs got wiped down to one Plasma cannon due to templates and assaults. and Logan only had 1 wound left with a single Wolf Guard buddy (the game ended before we could deal the killing blow).

And as for the Grey Knights, they lost 2 units as well, small single units though.
- Crow (who my friend considered a joke unit) deep striked down behind my lines, so I Star-cannoned him in the face.
- and a Dreadnought, went down to the Fire Pike of the Fire Dragon Exarch.

Didn't really have a chance to deal enough damage to the Paladins and Draigo, only a few models in the unit killed. Had all the Wolf Guard to deal with, and the Gks spent half the time hiding in some woods, hah.

All in all it was a pretty good game, due to being in the middle of two armies though, my Shadow Spectres with their Jet packs, ended up jumping back and forth everywhere to take things out. 

LoA


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Close combat has more dice, which is more fun. It's the same logic as Gears of War: the chainsaw bayonet is god-damn next-to-useless in multiplayer, but Jesus Christ the feeling when you bifurcate someone with a veritable flood of gore is frickin' *awesome.*

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Close combat has more dice, which is more fun. It's the same logic as Gears of War: the chainsaw bayonet is god-damn next-to-useless in multiplayer, but Jesus Christ the feeling when you bifurcate someone with a veritable flood of gore is frickin' *awesome.*
> 
> Midnight


Ahhhh yahhhhh.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

get it right, shooting isnt 'better' it is 'safer' you can effectively rape more face with CC alot faster then you do with shooting, due to more dice, it also has the joy of removing shooting from the equasion when stuck in combat, or the ability to run down a large squad if you sweeping them.

Shooting does less wounds per game turn, but takes less casualties overall, its Safer, not better.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Suggesting that the difference between shooting and close combat is as binary as good and bad is retarded.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah, and the over generalization breaks down even more when you realize that each army is designed differently in relation to both factors.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes, but if you think about it that only applies when an army is piss poor at CC or shooting. One or the other.

In the case of a CC army, you actually rely on your enemy being unable to shoot whilst you're stuck into the combat AND being worse at CC than your army. That's a big shout.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Baltar said:


> In the case of a CC army, you actually rely on your enemy being unable to shoot whilst you're stuck into the combat AND being worse at CC than your army. That's a big shout.


Why is anyone making a CC army in today's day and age? There's literally no good reason to do it. This isn't because close combat is "bad" though, but because it's best used depending on the situation rather than blindly attempting to instigate an assault regardless of other factors.

Close combat is risky but potentially hugely rewarding, as it takes a ton of effort to remove a unit from an objective if you're doing it entirely from range whereas assaults are typically over in one or two rounds. Good, balanced lists are equipped to engage in combat when it would prove advantageous to do so (depending, there are some armies that forgo assault entirely just due to how awful they are at it, like Tau).


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

lol this just reminds me when a friend of mine (chaos deamon player) designed a full Khorne army... my god, it would be absolutely deadly in CC but the deep striking and distinct lack of ranged weapons made it not even though trying it out, hah.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Why is anyone making a CC army in today's day and age? There's literally no good reason to do it. This isn't because close combat is "bad" though, but because it's best used depending on the situation rather than blindly attempting to instigate an assault regardless of other factors.
> 
> Close combat is risky but potentially hugely rewarding, as it takes a ton of effort to remove a unit from an objective if you're doing it entirely from range whereas assaults are typically over in one or two rounds. Good, balanced lists are equipped to engage in combat when it would prove advantageous to do so (depending, there are some armies that forgo assault entirely just due to how awful they are at it, like Tau).


So you're saying that you wouldn't make an entirely CC army because it is, essentially, useless.

Would you make an entirely shooty army?


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I always find close combat to be the most enjoyable sequence of the game. The chance to hit back and the chance of a dramatic reprieve for a lone guardsmen. Although I do find there are sometimes a few too many fearless units.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Hey, don't get me wrong. I love CC. I play BA. How could I not?

But the fact is that's getting stuck in is a risky business. Shooting isn't. Judge that by how you would judge what you would and wouldn't shoot at with particular units, and then by what you would and wouldn't run across the board to charge at.

Take a stupid example: What, exactly, wouldn't you shoot at with guardsmen who have a lasgun (one shot) at S3? Almost nothing, I'm betting. What, exactly, WOULD you run across the board and charge at with guardsmen who have one attack at S3? Almost nothing, I'm betting.

CC has it's place, but until GW make the stats more even with shooting, then shooting will always be better in most circumstances.

That's why it's silly to compare a BA dread with blood talons to a unit like long fangs. Yes, blood talons ON PAPER are ridiculous. They hardly ever get to back it up with dice rolls, though, because 10+ wounds, almost all of the time, is a pipe dream. It's like praying for lucky dice - and that's not worth counting on.

Take LF, though. They are as solid a shooty unit as this game gets, I reckon. They get spammed like a motherfucker - and for good reason. No need to count on poor statistics - just put em on the board and let them shoot the fuck out of the enemy. Not much risk involved. That's why it's such an awesome unit. A BA dread with talons COULD potentially rip through a massive unit like a beast. It could also be stuck in CC, doing fuck all for quite a while, too. That's never really going to be a problem you get with LF unless someone charges them - and the only reason they would do that is to keep them from shooting you to bits............

When CC has become a way of closing with the enemy as quickly as possible in order to prevent them from shooting you to pieces, something is wrong.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

The LF rules make perfect sense in the fluff, as explained already by other posters. And on the whole CC vs shooting thing, the last time I played a lot was in early fourth ed, so I can't comment much on the whole CC v shooting. However, the few games I have played in fifth ed, it seemed to me that CC was the most vital and damaging phase of all the games. 
Oh and by the way, I'll trade you Split Fire (which so far has been absolutely useless) and Counter Attack for FNP and FC.

Some codices suffer from power creep, that is a fact of 40K. But if you pair up SW against a recent codex they have no significant advantage, and in some cases they are at a disadvantage.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Long Fang rules make perfect sense assuming everyone wasn't an elite genetically modified super solider, raised from childhood for the sole purpose of war. Long Fangs appear to be the only ones who can take a sergeant who can tell 2 guys to fire at that tank, and you two guys fire at THAT tank. I mean I know this is a fiendishly difficult thing they're trying, clearly because if the sergeant dies they revert to a all firing at the same thing, unable to self determine what they should shoot at, perhaps they draw lots or something to choose a target. Presumably regular Space Marine sergeants spend their entire lives just shouting at them 'You fire at that, you fire at that you useless metal pricks' whilst his squad mates gleefully ignore him and continue all firing the same way.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Baltar said:


> So you're saying that you wouldn't make an entirely CC army because it is, essentially, useless.
> 
> Would you make an entirely shooty army?


... I give up.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> ... I give up.


yeah, I gave up too, hes too stubborn and not the brightest bulb in the box obviously, and he wants to stick to his guns about how CC sucks, despite all the information showing otherwise.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> The Long Fang rules make perfect sense assuming everyone wasn't an elite genetically modified super solider, raised from childhood for the sole purpose of war. Long Fangs appear to be the only ones who can take a sergeant who can tell 2 guys to fire at that tank, and you two guys fire at THAT tank. I mean I know this is a fiendishly difficult thing they're trying, clearly because if the sergeant dies they revert to a all firing at the same thing, unable to self determine what they should shoot at, perhaps they draw lots or something to choose a target. Presumably regular Space Marine sergeants spend their entire lives just shouting at them 'You fire at that, you fire at that you useless metal pricks' whilst his squad mates gleefully ignore him and continue all firing the same way.


Yeah. This.

Before this thread, I didn't realise that all the other space marines who had been fighting for decades, trained from a young age, implanted with a seed that makes them the best warriors that exist within the entire galaxy-spanning imperium, wouldn't be able to think for themselves at all.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

please read the rulebook. units cant split fire, it is the way the rules work and has fluff justifications in the rulebook. just like the long fang split fire rule is explained perfectly in their fluff section. The rule is there, suck it up and deal with it.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Hehe according to the fluff, normal chapter dev squads are about experienced as bloodclaws......


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Hell yeah, they're only a few years of weapons training away from being illiterate barbarians.

Anyways, as I believe I have previously stated, melee is _cool_. Close combat isn't in the game because smacking someone in the face with a Chainaxe is practical, it's there because its *fucking awesome*.

Midnight


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Long fangs vs sternguard thing,
Long fangs are older, know each other better as pack brother for a long time etc, they are space wolves and subsequently less pressed for drills and whatnot and most importantly, are from a newer codex! If you were to compare IG stormtroopers to the old kaskarins, they would be infinately better. Compare chaos marines now to the old codex ones, much better again (I mean the standard troops, not the codex as a whole). When a new codex is made, they invariably try to make them good, and often seem to get a little overzealous.
And what the fuck are you all complaining about? Sternguard special ammo is up in my top ten list of most god-damned awsome special rules in the history of forever!
BTW, someone said earlier on that Dante was the oldest marine, not true. He is the oldest fully living loyalist marine, Bjorn the Fell-Handed's the oldest and about half the populous of the CSM seem to be 10k years old, and yet abaddon is somehow only a bit better than Calgar :ireful2:... but that's another story.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

HOGGLORD said:


> Long fangs vs sternguard thing,
> Long fangs are older, know each other better as pack brother for a long time etc, they are space wolves and subsequently less pressed for drills and whatnot and most importantly, are from a newer codex! If you were to compare IG stormtroopers to the old kaskarins, they would be infinately better. Compare chaos marines now to the old codex ones, much better again (I mean the standard troops, not the codex as a whole). When a new codex is made, they invariably try to make them good, and often seem to get a little overzealous.
> And what the fuck are you all complaining about? Sternguard special ammo is up in my top ten list of most god-damned awsome special rules in the history of forever!
> BTW, someone said earlier on that Dante was the oldest marine, not true. He is the oldest fully living loyalist marine, Bjorn the Fell-Handed's the oldest and about half the populous of the CSM seem to be 10k years old, and yet abaddon is somehow only a bit better than Calgar :ireful2:... but that's another story.


Actually even taking into account the warps effects on aging most CSM named characters are at least 1 millenia old now. Heresy 35M current setting 41-42M. Mind you their age isn't that surprising considering kharn has been brought back from the dead at least once.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I don't find the split fire to be too much of an issue. If you think of every codex as a separate faction with different rules, it's fine mechanically. 

That said, the fluff justification *is* silly in comparison with the fluff from any other chapter. Space Marine Sergeants are all veterans of a hundred campaigns, to inlcude Devastator Sgts, and long fang team leads are no more experienced than that. So while the fluff may "justify" it, the fluff boils down to Long Fangs being "moar awesomer" than other marines.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The entire reason that Long Fangs have that rule in the first place is to differentiate them from normal Marines.

I don't understand why there has to be a fluff justification for it to be an acceptable thing. Ravenwing Bikes have Scout. Why? To make them different from normal Bikers. Deathwing Terminators are Fearless. Why? To make them different. That's all the reason needed and it certainly isn't worth anyone getting upset over.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

see I'm for the whole to make them different from the rest, you don't want the 1000 chapters of the adeptus astartes being exactly the same, that would just be... dull and exactly what the Space Smurfs would want. :biggrin: 

having a theme behind the army is fine, but claiming that the fluff of a single unit is the reason why they can do it is kind of silly, if we were using fluff to design how a unit plays then Eldar Farseer, hell even warlocks should be able to mind rape any one without needing to roll any dice... but now-a-days *'Everyone and their mums have better powers round here'* (rep to anyone who guesses what I based that off, been watching it today).

but yeah this thread has gone completely off the rails here, I don't know why it got into a massive discussion about Dakka and Choppa'. But if it is off the rails I might as well go off some more rails too. I foudn a thread earlier by Sir_m1ke making a 5th ed Eldar codex and I liked the idea behind the Farseer and Warseer HQs, don't get me wrong Eldritch storm and mind war are cool, but I look at some powers others have *cough* Njal *cough* and I'm just sat there like 'you bitch'... I want awesome powers of death and doom, I'm Eldar why don't we get death and doom powers?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Answer to that question is easy.

Love for SW is off the scale; therefore the codex gets bummed to high heaven.

Simples.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

LordOfAbsolution said:


> but yeah this thread has gone completely off the rails here, I don't know why it got into a massive discussion about Dakka and Choppa'. But if it is off the rails I might as well go off some more rails too. I foudn a thread earlier by Sir_m1ke making a 5th ed Eldar codex and I liked the idea behind the Farseer and Warseer HQs, don't get me wrong Eldritch storm and mind war are cool, but I look at some powers others have *cough* Njal *cough* and I'm just sat there like 'you bitch'... I want awesome powers of death and doom, I'm Eldar why don't we get death and doom powers?


So you want eldrad to not work for 3 turns if you go second and not be able to use his special powers from the vehicle he is in? Fine. Njal is poor enough unless you are a very good player, paying almost 250pts for a model with no invulnerable save and 2 wounds is not my idea of a great unit.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

not saying Njal is better than Eldrad, Eldrad pwns all the same, but I mean like to have moer flavour, those roll a D3+ turn number powers Njal gets are pretty cool, and not too sure about the chaos book not looked at it in a while, but the basic SM 'dex has like close to a dozen powers not sure how many the BA or normal Run priests get. But yeah mainly just more flavour and such than to different powers, like I said sir_m1ke did one a while back that had tons more powers, and more effective, powerful powers, and be the true master psyker race that they are.

this is mainly a wishlisting post here, like I look at the SW run priest powers and the GK liby powers and they are all pretty cool, yeah the Eldar powers are pretty cool too, and I'm not saying I just want copy/paste powers from the space marines. mainly just want more flavour and options behind the master psykers of the galaxy.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

I agree with you there. Eldar need more psychic powers, they are supposed to be the ultimate psychic power. But, that is a problem with most races. Nearly all races are lacking in their flavour, but that is GW's fault not the fault of Space Wolf players. And yeah, Njal is a piece of shit from what I've seen.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

CaptainQuackers said:


> And yeah, Njal is a piece of shit from what I've seen.


This is amusing to me.

Does anyone else remember the QQfest over Njal's rumored rules back before the Space Wolf Codex came out (the accurate ones, not the massively exaggerated rumors I mean)? A few especially shitty tournaments were considering banning him _before the book even came out_. Funny how opinions can change so drastically.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

aye Space Wolf players are just fanatical metal vikings :laugh: but yeah I think Njals that typical awesome idea they have in the office that is then poorly executed in the book and shows it in the game, much like Triarch preatorians and the like.

it's a shame really, I suppose like everything else they strive to make them decent in the game (what's the point of putting them in the book otherwise) but theres just that 'one' thing that puts people off using the unit, whether it be points to stats or what not.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Wait, wait wait....

Space wolves have units other than RP, LFS, and GHs? WHAT?! :read:


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

I know it's hard to believe, but some of us like to build unique lists, and the added bonus of not being screamed at by neck beards is just gravy.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

CaptainQuackers said:


> I know it's hard to believe, but some of us like to build unique lists, and the added bonus of not being screamed at by neck beards is just gravy.


I think he was being sarcastic lol!


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Ravner298 said:


> Wait, wait wait....
> 
> Space wolves have units other than RP, LFS, and GHs? WHAT?! :read:


Well we have the rhino and razorback too!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

CaptainQuackers said:


> I know it's hard to believe, but some of us like to build unique lists, and the added bonus of not being screamed at by neck beards is just gravy.


What is a neck beard, assuming it is not literally a beard growing on someone's neck?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Baltar said:


> What is a neck beard, assuming it is not literally a beard growing on someone's neck?


*Here's the definition.*


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

CaptainQuackers said:


> I know it's hard to believe, but some of us like to build unique lists, and the added bonus of not being screamed at by neck beards is just gravy.


define a unique list? so, blood claws and swiftclaws and skyclaws? or something like that? 

that is unique, and shit.

thundercav, GH, wolf lords, lone wolves, scouts, rune priests, wolf guard and long fangs. the other units in the book are shite by comparison.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

By unique list I mean not being a dick and spamming ML. I take one LF squad at the most, and I build my list based around wanting to have fun not wanting to win.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

i.e. a 'non-competitive' list a word unknown to a lot of SW players.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

If it's mostly unknown to SW players then it's non existent to Grey Knights and Necrons players. Making retarded generalizations is fun, I should do it more often.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

It's not like there aren't BA spam lists out there, too...

Playing against any spam list is basically the least amount of fun I can possibly imagine.

Spam Ork list. Instant hatred. Pure boredom the whole way through.

"Imma spam ork boyz"

"Okay, Imma spam vindactors".

Bored already. Yawn.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

My usual Space wolf list involves...

3 squads of grey hunters (I usually ran 3 squads of tac marines before the codex came out anyways), 1-2 squads of skyclaws, 2 squads of long fangs, and 1-2 Wolfpriests

Mix in random vehicles/elites here and there...wolf scouts, dreads and what not. 

Having a very solid heavy support choice and troop choice isn't being cheezy or beardy...just being smart. No one screams beardy at IG players just because they bring vet squads.

Everyone needs to stop getting so upset over rules for plastic dudes.


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## kaboot (Jan 4, 2012)

CaptainQuackers said:


> If it's mostly unknown to SW players then it's non existent to Grey Knights and Necrons players. Making retarded generalizations is fun, I should do it more often.


Its not fair to assume every GK players spams. I play GK and I built my list around the units I thought looked awesome. I play to have fun, not to table people.

You can break every army if you really wanted to and tried to. (Granted some armies are easier than others)


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

I know, that's what I was saying. I was making a stupid generalization like Lord of Absolution did.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

and I was trolling the people who ran amok with my thread and changed it to a 'whats more important, shooting or assault' thread  see I can poke fun like that 'cause my friend who started SW (reason why I saw the rules and started this thread) is making his army for the sole purpose to be competitive against his brother-in-laws grey knight army :biggrin:. 

Plus I know the neck breads would get trolled too easy anyway.


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## Robfu (Feb 14, 2012)

I smell wet dog from all the crying!
Wet wolf cheeks from all the whining!
Space Wolves, winning?


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## kaboot (Jan 4, 2012)

CaptainQuackers said:


> I know, that's what I was saying. I was making a stupid generalization like Lord of Absolution did.


haha ok, my bad then, hard for me to pick up sarcasm in text


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Aha! So making a good list designed to win games is being a dick. Therefore i am definitely a dick.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

CaptainQuackers said:


> I know, that's what I was saying. I was making a stupid generalization *like Lord of Absolution did*.


You call me a dick (yes, at our club we like playing competitively, as well as we enjoy painting and fluff, why is it such a Fing big problem to you anyway?), and then start pointing fingers when you realise your mistake. Please, stop acting like a child, we are supposed to be able to argue like gentlemen here.

Yes Mcmuffin, we are the worst kind of people!


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

Wow, complete misinterpretation there. I meant spamming every cheese imaginable for the sole purpose of winning is being a dick. I have no issue with playing competitively, neither myself nor my opponents are good enough to warrant an ultra competitive list. If you wanna play competitive, fine, I was not intending to offend anybody who plays to win, merely those who play solely to win.

And no, my intention was to lampoon Lord of Absolution. Here is what he said:



LordOfAbsolution said:


> i.e. a 'non-competitive' list a word unknown to a lot of SW players.


Here is my response:



CaptainQuackers said:


> If it's mostly unknown to SW players then it's non existent to Grey Knights and Necrons players. Making retarded generalizations is fun, I should do it more often.


If you think that is trying to shift the blame on to someone else because of a non-existent mistake then you need to learn how to read.

Anyway, I did not mean to offend you McMuffin and Tossidin, the sentence came out wrong, I will edit it now.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Nice to see that you are more grown up then I thought. I may have been a little rough as well, I just get so annoyed when people trash talk those who play to win


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

yeah making retarded generalization is fun, I have friends who play SW, GK, DE and IG some of the top tier armies that can just spam their best units to win, in fact any army can do that. If you note the title of this thread and my original post I was pointing out my disliking of how many abilities SW units get and such a cheap cost, people have given me fair and clear reasons of why they are like that game-wise is fine (saying it's due to fluff is just stupid, fluff doesn't make them 15 points each)...

Everyone on here are most likely great people in real life, and could most likely get a long with fine, but un-like a lot of other players (like Baltar for example, he can take peoples opinions of the BA and say they are just) but when you say that to a number of Space Wolves players they go mental, not all of them but a lot of them. Captain Quackers, you yourself my just play it for fun and if you do good on you mate. And there is no problem with playing to win, what's the point of playing the game if you don't plan to win? I made that statement because the way some players have been saying it on here seem like they are the type who are willing to abuse any codex they are using to win, whether thats spamming or whatever, it losses the fun value.

My statement was mainly towards them, because this was meant to be a discussion of why long fangs have what they have at such a cheap cost, yet first of all they start a flame war because somebody to making a issue about their codex, which seems like the majority of Space Wolf players do (other players of other codices do as well, but look at any forum and it seems like the majority player Space Wolves on a competitive level) and then they completely change the thread to something else, if they wanted to shout at eachother about what's better then they could of made another thread. Again my statement was towards to the people who for some reason couldn't talk logically about the opinion I arose. I meant no dis-respect for the players out there who are logical and can responsible, and before people bring up 'ahh trolling on the internet blahblahblah' I will mention if everyone on this forum was in one big room I would still have no problem voicing my opinion infront of them, yet they would most likely still be un-responsible them, for the people who could be I apologise for any offence I caused. But when people try and ignore a responsible argument then you might as well point fun at them for being morons.


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## BozlyLittle (Jul 3, 2011)

We have a player at our store who's "fair" space wolves list consists of 10 plasma cannons and 5 las cannons. His troops chill back while the long fangs do work takes njal storm caller and thats his army...

He won't play anything on or under 2200 because thats the cost of his army.

I feel your pain.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

How does this thread still exist?

Certain units get special abilities that other units don't get. I can bounce a Tau railgun's shot right back in a Broadside's face with my Lychguard EVERYONE ELSE CANT DO IT ITS IMBA OP! Daemon Princes can force your infantry units to move places they don't want to go, effectively increasing the charge range of their own units I CANT DO LASH ITS IMBA OP! Sisters of Battle get acts of faith I DON'T GET ACTS OF FAITH ITS IMBA OP! Everyone else gets psykers I CAN'T HAVE PSYKERS, PSYKERS ARE IMBA OP!

Seriously. With all the cheesy shit in this game you pick Long Fangs splitting fire? Theres a mountain of cheese in SW, but Long Fangs splitting fire isn't in there. Come at me with a JotWW or last laugh shenanigans complaint and maybe I will listen. 

Its just a special ability they have, who cares. They're expensive so you get what you pay for.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

I wouldn't say splitting fire is OP. But the fact that grey hunters are better then tactical marines as they have 2 close combat weapons and counter attack for less then a tactical squad is something i don't understand in the slightest. It makes taking Blood Claws pointless and also doesn't make sense points wise. Also you can get 2 weapons like a melta or plasma gun for free when you have 10. Compared to the tactical squad with a free missile launcher and flamer, i know which one id rather take, especially with grey hunters being 20 points cheaper.


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