# Warriors of Chaos Author - Cruddace



## Lanfear (Mar 23, 2011)

Damn, I just found out that Cruddace is the author of the new Warriors of Chaos book. The WoC are one of my two beloved Warhammer armies. The other is the Tomb Kings and he made such a mess of them (_although I do still use and win with them but he did make a good few annoying changes in their case) _that I shudder to think what will be done to my favourites, the WoC.
New Dragon ogres look very good though.:shok:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I am terrified over that fact. Tomb Kings is also my second army and I haven't taken it off the shelf since the new book came out. The idea that the same might happen to WoC is nauseating.


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Oh no... In fantasy he kind of bombed the kings. 

And in 40k, he is responsible for murdering my tyranids and creating the monstrosity that is guard. Hopefully he doesn't take my warriors too. 

I must say, I never get why people bitch about Ward and leave this guy out of it. He is my least favorite author. 

But we have to give him a chance for redemption. And the ogres look nice, but the vortex beast wants me to buy it. It is amazing. But then again, he isn't responsible for making models.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

He wrote Empire as well which is a very well balanced, fun and competitive book. I think it will be fine. I honestly hope it goes down in power to level it out with the other 8th edition army books. I like that GW seems to not be doing a power creep anymore.


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Empire got some great diversity.
TK wasn't the best, but it got some good additions as well.

Honestly, as a WOC player, I think the book needed some re-tooling. 
Very static, not a lot of diversity
some CHEAP tricks. 

3+ ward chosen
 puppet
 gatewaying units off the board
 treason of Tzeentch
 marauder spam
.

I'm seeing a lot of new units in rumors, some great stuff. A HUGE nerf to marauders, which with all the new units shouldn't matter much


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

It does matter when you consider that marauders and warriors where the only troop[s, but they seem to have noticed how stupid it would be to have been to only have 1 proper troop worth taking and are now apparently making warhound and chariots proper core units. Mind you warhounds and chariots are about as effective as wet cardboard for front line combat so I expect marauders to almost die out completely and the other two to be largely ignored for large blocks of the supposedly cheaper warriors. (Wow diversity prepare for 75% of armies to have nothing but warriors in the core slot)

I am all in for bringing WoC inline with other books, but I am worried that they will end up with a army where its just as powerful, but infinitely less diverse because people don't take anything but warriors. However this all depends on how much everything costs as a unrealistic price point can quickly put a unit in the shit pile. I mean remember the WD pamphlet and the otherwise respectable hellstriders?


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

With the book in hand, my first thoughts (based purely on gut reaction and thinking of other books) are that Marauders are over-costed, probably only by 1pt each (They were under last book) and warriors are under costed by 1pt each. expect to see less marauder units and more warriors.

The hero level wizard is overcosted by a lot

Forsaken are kind of pointless as a unit, and I guess they were moved to core to try and encourage people to take them. Honestly stick with warriors

The chariot moving to core is a nice touch and is a good unit, provided you get the charge and impact hits, obviously they will die if you charge into a full infantry unit

The warshrine only affects champions now so no crazy unit buffs can occur, that said you could potentially turn them all into daemon princes.... 

The Mutalith is just brutal, and the chimera is brutal but fragile and will fall against a ranked up unit pretty easily. The Shaggoth really should have had the option for a halberd to match regular DOs

Rest of the list seems pretty identical to last book otherwise, although the good magic items have pretty much all gone, the ones left are all meh 

There is potential for variety in the list but it will likely be slow blocks of warriors supported by fast moving monsters or knights, supported by monsters or super knights


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warshirne only effects champions? WTF? Nice to here the monsters are worth taking but considering the changes that steadfast gave to basic infantry I would expect no less...unless GW wants a warehouse full of chaos monsters collecting dust.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Warshirne only effects champions?


Anyone with Eye of Chaos: which is basically the same list as before.

It does potentially affect multiple champions at once as well and gives them the ability to modify the roll on EotG, so you trade one possibly good buff on a unit for up to three probably slightly better buffs on champions/characters.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The warshrine only effects models with the "eye of the gods" rule which is just characters and champions, but it does effect d3 per turn. To be honest the shrine is an ok unit but compared to last book a lot worse. Slightly annoying as I bought one today before seeing the rules change. It does still have synergy with chosen who still get a unit roll at the start of the game, and improves chances of Ascending

*ninja'd there me thinks!

The Brutes (Slaughter and Mutalith) are both decent, but gut reaction is mutalith is much better

Chimeras give options to disrupt missile units

Giants and shaggoth do look weaker than the newer monster kit, almost like what happened to the carnifex when the trygon was released for 40k tyranids (Ah yes Cruddace wrote that...)


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## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

how much do forsakon cost


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Can't tell you as it violates forum rules.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

You could give an example unit though: such as 20 with a mark (I don't even know if they can have one) and full command. Remember it doesn't break forum rules if the points costs aren't itemised (so someone wanting to play the army on the table will need an actual copy of the book).


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

20 with Mark of slaanesh is 420pts

They are overpriced, they were not good value before but now warriors are cheaper and their more expensive they just don't cut it

They have been given a random mutation each turn like 40k possessed which is ok, but imho doesn't make them worth it, warriors are more reliable for less cost


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## Origamininja (Jan 12, 2013)

Infernal puppet is gone... I'm very sad to see.

I like all the new units and monsters but with all the price increases it looks like my army is going to be a lot smaller on the table. 

I think the changes are a mix... And for me we are less warriors of chaos and becoming more mutants of chaos as the warrior/knights etc are becoming more and more expensive...


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Warriors are cheaper base, but the upgrades have gone up in points, which means you'll likely see more sword and shield with MoTzeentch or unmarked warriors. Definitely going to see less marauders 

Knights with lances are cheaper, but ensorcelled weapons are pricier, command group is also cheaper

Lack of the puppet is a shame but it was an auto-include item, and I guessed it was going to either go or be really expensive 

The way I think I'm thinking is that even though units are pricier the addition of the chimera and the potential for the "Ascended bomb" will hopefully mean less casualties from shooting


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## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

Jeez there exxpensive I wanted to know cos my book hasn't come yet


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

Yeah lets face it, puppet really needed to go. One of the least fun, most op items in the game. I used it in a few games and felt like a piece of shit each time. Marauders are still good its just that they will be used more as steadfast blocks with sword and shield I think. More like Marauders should be because that was a change that needed to happen. GW Khorne Marauder hordes were used way too often because they were insanely under priced.


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Least fun, most OP items? Seriously? It was good, but not to the level of the book of hoeth or the cupped hands. 

Had they made it 55 points so only lords could take it, that would be fine. 

Marauders will probably either be tzeentch anvils or mindrazor fighters, but the khorne flail units are still good - just more expensive.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

Those items are definitely worse. But puppet was just stupid. I dimensional cascaded my opponent several times with that. It made it unfun just like gateway made playing WoC unfun.

I agree with marauders though. Khorne ones aren't totally unviable but pretty damn expensive.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

And in a expensive army they are probably not worth taking, after all to get reliable stead fast you will be taking 25 of em (Due to shit save, and low T). Fact is they are a fairly bad buy for 6pts each, and outside of some specific build other armies will almost always have cheaper units that will almost always have more ranks, unless you think wasting points on a missile sponge is a good idea. T3 with 0 save in other books costs about 3-4pts (High WS and I is useless on a S3 1A unit). Seriously for every two marauders with anything above being naked you can buy a warrior who in all honesty could probably take down 2-6 marauders over the course of a combat. 

Look at other armies. Very few have to spend 7pts for T3 infantry with a 6+/6++ save, and at that cost buying the necessary bricks will rapidly cut into points you could spend on stuff that would just grind 50 man steadfast blocks into red mist in 2-3 turns. I mean lets look at some of the less shitty builds in the required unit strengths for steadfast (The only reason anyone would take em now). 25+shield+banner+Tzeentch =235pts, and this is the miniumum size you should take them in. Well how about just a garbage throw away unit of 30 to just give a temporary stead fast (I say temporary as any decent combat unit should kill 7-12 a turn) of 30 with sword and board will be 30+banner+shield=210pts for what basically buys you free hit points (Note if you play this way you will lose often to armies that due it better for less like ogres, ocs goblins, or and undead army). Now lets take a look at one of the unit builds that will win a combat. 25+flails+mark of khorn+banner =260pts now that's not bad but as someone you actually used a lot of marauders this unit will die real fast (I mean honestly expect for 10 minimum to die a turn).

Now I am only bringing this up because people are trying to sugar coat it and hide that fact that marauders are now just a bad choice do to cost. I mean if you want relatively cheap infantry your playing the wrong army. Now 20 chaos warriors with shield and banner is only 310 which is high but consider this none of the mentioned marauder builds would last more then 1 turn against them talk volumes. Fact is chaos this edition doens't really need to rely on steadfast as few armies will rarely actually beat you in CC most of the time if you design your list well. 

However if you want to take em still, I see nothing wrong with a garbage brick of 30 with mark of slaanesh which is only 210, but keep in mind that with T3, and a 0 save using them in any combat is a huge risk as even when you pull of a side charge the enemy may just break both units if they do the smart thing and attack only the marauders. I mean even as a throw away units are either faster or hit harder, leaving the new priced marauders in a bit of a weird spot.

They have a place in the book, but very few WoC army lists need them especially at the current coast....and would people please stop saying they had to be nerfed? Let really put this into perspective here marauders only had 1-2 builds that were broken and those were already addressed by making marks pay by model and doubling the cost of all offensive wargear, or where people really complaining about naked marauders with shields?

On a more positive not Dragon ogres, Bloodcrushers, and the warshrine are all more or less better then they where and the addition of shadow and metal to low level sorcs is a serious bonus.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Marauders were undercosted last book, 4pts was a bargain. New book saw that and panicked so they are overpriced, or at least not particularly competitive 

Not run numbers with them, but for the cost of about 24 Marauders I can take 15 warriors, do we really even need to think about that? Warriors will blend them, but it may take them a couple of turns to do so

The whole steadfast issue isn't a big deal, WoCs have good leadership and the small army size means a lot will be in range of the general (Archaon extends this and is cheaper than before) allowing you to dice for a few turns, so we don't need it. Monsters and cav must act as steadfast deniers

A tactic I will likely use against large army blocks is a refused flank, with 2 hellcannons to blast the edge most unit, be able to get flank charge and the enemy says bye bye to steadfast


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Well. I'm still digesting Cruddace's latest excretion, and I think I've calmed down a bit. I was initially apocalyptically angry over the huge Warshrine change which has badly messed up my Valkia army. Don't get me started on a Khornate Warshrine having a Bound Spell. I'm also very annoyed at Marauders not only getting more expensive, but also getting worse due to losing Will of Chaos and no longer getting buffed by Warshrines. Sneaky one on Marauder Horse, too, who now lose Fast Cavalry even if you only give them light armour.

There is fun to be had in there, though. First up, a very silly hypothetical army idea: Cram in as many 5-man Chosen units as possible, take a couple of Warshrines. Deploy all the Chosen in range of the Warshrines so their initial EOTG roll is on 4D6 dropping two dice. Proceed to spam Giver of Glory and see how many Daemon Princes you can make. I know.

I quite like what they've done with the spell lores. Slaanesh certainly got a bit more useful now that Immune to Psychology doesn't auto-resist half the spell list. Both Nurgle and Slaanesh got interesting two-spell combos that can horribly mangle enemy units, and in the case of Nurgle also synergize nicely with the Mutalith. The Lore attributes are quite fun, though the Slaanesh one seems a bit unlikely to do anything.

I can see some use in small units of Forsaken- since they can't have command and have a lot of attacks they get little benefit from ranks, but they hit hard and move fast so little 5-10 man units present a cheapish threat. It's also nice to see that Warhounds are proper Core now.

I like that Juggers are actually pretty dangerous now. Finally we have somewhere to put a Jugger-riding character, and if you can avoid getting shot to death (big if) the Skullcrushers should be pretty awesome.

That said, my dark horse unit might be the Hellstriders. At the same cost per model as the Forsaken you get Move 10 fast cavalry with spears, Magic and Poisoned attacks, and not-quite Power from Pain. I'm not sure how good they'll be in the traditional harassing role of fast cav, but add in a Steed-riding character or two and you might well have a unit that can be in the enemy's face basically immediately and hits pretty hard too.

It's also nice to see some of the special characters tidied up a bit. Festus might just be playable now he has a chance to see off enemies with his potions before combat starts (yay, something that gets past the Unkillable Dreadlord) and might even get up past his weak T4 and W2 with the Lore attribute. I like that Sigvald has finally manned up and hit T5 like all the other boys in the schoolyard, too.

Oh and finally, a 2+ Ward for Dragon Ogres against lightning? Really? That's like me having to take a 2+ save whenever I eat a steak!


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