# What Chaos Marines need...



## The Black Legionnaire (Oct 18, 2010)

What do you think should be added to the Chaos Army Lists?


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

The Brass Scorpion :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

erm lets see, blood slaughterers, blight drones, erm, other daemon engines, cult terminators, possible dreadnought variants eg siege dreads, some sort of ally system to allow the lost and the damned and traitor guard, legion rules, legion hq and characters eg like erebus, honsou.
this is what i think would help improve the codex


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

*Flavor. *


Right now the codex is too simplistic and "black legion" (which is the equivalent of Ultramarines for chaos). Too broad an approach was taken and the feel for faction or legion specifics were thrown out the window.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Also got to go with flavor, hell we are one of the most bland armies out their with even SM doing stuff other armies can't with their special characters. Hell after Necrons/DH come out we will be amongst the blandest codex's out there. Still as is we have a effective army, just without much uniqueness.


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

Unforgiven302 said:


> *Flavor. *
> 
> 
> Right now the codex is too simplistic and "black legion" (which is the equivalent of Ultramarines for chaos). Too broad an approach was taken and the feel for faction or legion specifics were thrown out the window.


:goodpost: He's right the next chaos codex I want there to be more flavor then a starburst.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Cultists and Basilks!!


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Unforgiven302 said:


> *Flavor. *
> 
> 
> Right now the codex is too simplistic and "black legion" (which is the equivalent of Ultramarines for chaos). Too broad an approach was taken and the feel for faction or legion specifics were thrown out the window.


:goodpost:
Yep.
Also, I'd like stuff like the Collar of Khorne and Axe of Khorne back, please.
You can keep your Bloodfeeder and other Daemon Weapons, as options, but I'd like to see something aside from just the kick in the nadz this most recent 'dex is.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Simple and most likely, 

HQ choices that bring in Legion rules, like the ICs in the Nilla dex.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Viscount Vash said:


> Simple and most likely,
> 
> HQ choices that bring in Legion rules, like the ICs in the Nilla dex.


That be a good idea (so maybe like a Iron Warriors Heroe that gives the army Tank hunters) or A Night Lords Guy that grants Infiltrate


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, I agree with majority with ya'll (talking bout cultist, legion specialties, etc.) along with my opinion of just merging the CSM 'dex and the Daemon 'dex together. I would be happy with that.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Vanchet said:


> Viscount Vash said:
> 
> 
> > Simple and most likely,
> ...


Yeah thats the sort of thing.

Ideally the four powers ought to get their own Dexs imo ( Shit if a mere thousand BAs get a book why not a whole bloody Legion of Thousand Sons etc)

Assuming that the Four powers won't get their own Dexs, then a Nilla (Probably Black Legion) CSM Dex with Characters to bring in Legion Rules, Hell it's a chance for GW to do some nice Legion Based Character minis too.

Iron Warriors Iron Priest= +1 HSupport.
Word Bearers Dark Apostle= Daemon Allies. ( GW Sell two books)
Alpha Legion = IG Troops as Allies ( GW sell you two Books)
and so on.

GW win on sales, we get flavour, minimum new rule writing. sorted.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Unforgiven302 said:


> *Flavor. *
> 
> 
> Right now the codex is too simplistic and "black legion" (which is the equivalent of Ultramarines for chaos). Too broad an approach was taken and the feel for faction or legion specifics were thrown out the window.


 We're less bland than Tyranids...

They have 3 main fleets, no specific units for each (unless you go right into the fluff)

Chaos atleast have specified stuff like Khorne Berserkers (Obviously specific to World Eaters) and Khârn the betrayer (Again, clearly a themed unit)
Tyranids just have units; only 2 special characters, who aren't fleet specific.

If anyone needs flavour, it's tyranids - But I only just bought their codex like a couple of months ago, in no hurry for a new one. :laugh:


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only real change id like to see thats not mentioned is removing "icons" for "marks"...

wait my MoN icon dude died....now im all normal but with wasted points - WTF!?


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Since we're definately not getting stuff we're wishing for (when did that ever happen?), I wish:

- Cultists. With models. Or release plastic Wracks and I'll be happy.
- New, cool and useful Daemon Engines, which means they aren't crap like the Defiler (which could use some fixing) and don't look godawful like the Storm Duck.
- Plastic Obliterators, 3 in each box.
- Marks instead of stupid Icons.
- Plastic Cult Troops, similarly to the Berzerkers (the current half-metal half-plastic boxes reek of HURPADURP).
- A fluff fix so that CSM will be more like the worst nightmare of the Imperium like in Storm of Iron and the Word Bearer series. Or to be more precise, more like Eliphas and less like Crull, Carron and Bale. 
- Less Failabaddon, more win like Honsou and Marduk.
- Fixed special characters and upgrades (Daemonic Mounts anyone?) that aren't there so you can't say they're not in the Codex.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Fallen said:


> the only real change id like to see thats not mentioned is removing "icons" for "marks"...
> 
> wait my MoN icon dude died....now im all normal but with wasted points - WTF!?



Just make sure the guy with the Icon dies last.. You're the one who gets to control that, you'd have to be really incompetent as a general to take off your Standard Bearer first, aha.

If I ever run a MoN squad, the standard bearer is the very last to go, because if it's between a Champion and a MoN Marine.. the MoN marine will be tougher, and therefore will put up more of a fight.

I think Icons are fine the way they are - a brilliant idea imo.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Dreadclaws! :mrgreen:


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

ROT said:


> We're less bland than Tyranids...
> 
> They have 3 main fleets, no specific units for each (unless you go right into the fluff)
> 
> ...


I find it hard to make tyranids flavorful or having offshoots that are different. Remember, they are an army that is based around being a soulless, non thinking, non feeling bioengineered automatons that devour for the hivemind. How can they have any more flavor than bland at its core? They are like living necrons when it boils right down to it.



Viscount Vash said:


> Yeah thats the sort of thing.
> 
> Ideally the four powers ought to get their own Dexs imo ( Shit if a mere thousand BAs get a book why not a whole bloody Legion of Thousand Sons etc)
> 
> ...


They did that with the first Chaos Marines codex. It was sexy awesome but also confusing too. Anyone remember that back in that codex Huron had to take and use point values for vehicles from the ultramarines codex? This represented the fact that he wasn't from one of the original traitor legions but from a renegade chapter. Because he was a chapter based renegade he got the newer vehicles and wargear. Cool rules like that added flavor without huge amounts of special rules and extra pages of content. It did make sales of the ultramarines codex mandatory for a red corsairs/Huron player. Smart for GW right? 

As for each power to get it's own codex, nah, they would be like 25 pages each and they would charge you full price. All together is fine, but make it so it is beneficial and detrimental to choose one power over the others or to mix them together. In the original codex, Khorne had animosity towards Slaanesh (and vise versa) and Tzeentch had animosity towards Nurgle (vise versa also) and had to roll on the animosity table to see if they would interact "peacefully" with each other every turn. That was flavorful and fun. Why is that so hard to include in the new codex? Simple rules that add so much to the overall feel and interaction of units.
The original codex took those old hard cover books, "Slaves to Darkness" and "The Lost and the Damned" and merged them together into one. It was cool but also so full of information and options a person could literally get so lost and confused he/she would go insane trying to make an army from it. Over stimulation and an overload of information. 
Chaos marines have the chance to be the best codex as far as versatility and charisma it isn't even funny. It doesn't have to be the most powerful army on the table with super awesome powers and kill-all weapons either, but simply with more choices for the player to design an army other than making 'zerkers, noise marines, t-sons and plague marines a troop choice. Because right now, that is the "spice" of the current dex. If GW was smart they would include the ability to field allied demons/traitor guard using the IG and demon 'dexes. Also, uniqueness to specific gods is what is needed the most. Right now there is no benifit to choosing Khorne over Slaanesh for the theme other than colors. Because right now we can have troops that in theory hate each other working side by side like it was nothing. GW just needs to see that people like the fluff to actually mean something and make the next dex right with solid and simple yet interesting rules to add the spice that is missing from the current dex.

That is my opinion.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

Like everyone else said Cultists would be a very good addition, as well as making armies a little more fluffy


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

A body guard for the lord, so no ID from a single pesky powerfist as soon as he gets in CC!!!!


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ROT said:


> Just make sure the guy with the Icon dies last..
> 
> I think Icons are fine the way they are - a brilliant idea imo.


ROT, what if all you had left was a melta Gunner, & the icon? & your right next to a tank to get the bonus melta die. doubt your gonna take the wound on the melta.

also what happens when you have to allocate wounds & the icon hits the fan?

i just think its retarded...oh Frank died & since he was carrying a metal poll which none of _us_ can pick up, i guess Nurgle isnt gonna bless us anymore.

besides i think its retarded fluff wise. if you go into a battle dedicated to a certain god, your obviously gonna do that time & again. not be fickle & swap your allegiance between battles....rant end.



Khorothis said:


> Since we're definately not getting stuff we're wishing for (when did that ever happen?), I wish:
> 
> - Cultists. With models. Or release plastic Wracks and I'll be happy.im all for cultists, cheap Guard like units. also what are Wracks?
> - New, cool and useful Daemon Engines, which means they aren't crap like the Defiler (which could use some fixing) and don't look godawful like the Storm Duck. agreed
> ...


plastic raptors.

game play differences

i would like that Chaos Land Raiders werent shittier than SM Land Raiders

i wouldnt mind if raptors / bikers had any value in the CSM dex (dont know if this means that they are cheaper, etc)

why dont MoN units just become T5? every other icon/mark dictates a permanent increase in stats, not just becoming a "walking bike" (seriously, still getting double toughed from MLs & stuff suck, i mean fluff wise nurgle marines are some of the hardest f*cks to kill in the universe)

i wouldnt mind Abaddon, Lucius, & *insert special character here* to be a little more badass; i mean Abaddon shouldnt have a rebelling Demon sword when hes the de facto leader of chaos; lucius should not be almost as expensive/productive as a CSM lord with the blissgiver (slaanesh DW).

make summoned lesser demons worth taking, like 5pts a model.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd like to see the reason why I started playing the game return.

That whole effort on gw to meet my standards for playing an army.

Or some effort. Any at all.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Viscount Vash said:


> Simple and most likely,
> 
> HQ choices that bring in Legion rules, like the ICs in the Nilla dex.


except as a standard option, instead of only special characters.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

The Black Legionnaire said:


> What Chaos Marines need...


Is to not have everyone and there grandmother saying 2there codex suck" or "they need a new codex....waaaaa!"
Please be quite. Choas do have a realitly weak codex compared to there old one but there codex works! Other people like Sisters, Gray Knights, Necrons, Dark Agnels and until resently Dark Eldar where all crying for new codex long before becuas eof the amount of metal modals and real old codex's (whats the plural for codex anyway?) Chaos will be done when it is done so sotp compalting aobut it can you only have the right toi compleain once we have 6th edition and not sooner...the thing still works!


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

jaws900 said:


> Please be quite.


Request granted. I will be quite vocal in my calls for a new codex that doesn't shit all over everything the Chaos Marines are supposed to be.

Sorry, but you set that up too perfectly. I had to do it.



Also, Realitly. Is that a word-mash of really and reallity?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

they need a titslug deamon


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

yanlou said:


> erm lets see, blood slaughterers, blight drones, erm, other daemon engines, cult terminators, possible dreadnought variants eg siege dreads, some sort of ally system to allow the lost and the damned and traitor guard, legion rules, legion hq and characters eg like erebus, honsou.
> this is what i think would help improve the codex


I got a blood slaughterer in my army


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> Is to not have everyone and their grandmother saying "their codex sucks" or "they need a new codex....waaaaa!".
> 
> Please be quite. Chaos do have a relatively weak codex compared to their old one, but their codex works! Other people like; Sisters, Grey Knights, Necrons, Dark Angels and until resently Dark Eldar were all crying for new codex long before because of the amount of metal models and real old codices. Chaos will be done when it is done, so stop complaining about it. You only have the right to complain once we have 6th edition and not sooner... The thing still works!


Chaos is one of, if not, the 'major bad guys' of the 40k universe. It's made up of 9 distinct legions, each with their own way of making war and countless renegade chapters, Imperial guard companies, titan legions, daemons and various other groups all dedicated to the ruinous powers.

[RANT=Nerdrage]So being one of the greatest threats to the imperium what do we get? One shit codex, AND ONLY ONE, BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CODEX: DAEMONS. One terrible codex with no flavour or variety, made worse by the fact that the 3.5rd ed Chaos 'dex was filled to the brim with flavour and variety.

On the other hand the forces of the imperium can be represented with no less than 7 codices depending on what takes your fancy; Vanilla SMs, Edward Marines, Viking Marines, Emo Marines, Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters & Witchhunters.[/RANT]

Can you see why Chaos players get so pissed off?


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> they need a titslug deamon


Doesn't everyone? 

I would like to see cultists, the bulk out the army a bit, adding in a meatshield would be cool.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> they need a titslug deamon


Definately!


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## Roujheh (Jan 13, 2010)

It would be nice to have more than one competitive build. The codex might as well be named "Codex:Lash".


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## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> (whats the plural for codex anyway?)


The plural of codex is codices.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Definetly individual Codices for some of thee big name Warbands/legions. Even if you add more content to give the current codex flavor it would not be enough. There are some really good legions out there that can reresent the different styles of combat (hit-run, siege, CC, Shooty). Definetly they could come up with plenty of fluff, not to mention it means more products they can sell. One downside is that means longer waits for codex updates.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Vanilla SMs, Edward Marines, Viking Marines, Emo Marines, Imperial Guard, Daemonhunters & Witchhunters.


You forgot RAGE marines in the form of black templar.

But yeah, shark is english your third, least enjoyed language? I keep neg repping you for your inability to type and I suggest everyone else do the same, otherwise your behavior of facerolling won't change.


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## The Black Legionnaire (Oct 18, 2010)

Chaos needs so many improvements...


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Chaos need hurricane bolter hands with built in heavy flamers,,,, No, but seriously some more unique wargear would be appreciated. Note: Reaper auto cannons < assault cannons.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

The Black Legionnaire said:


> Chaos needs so many improvements...


 Care to expand Mr. *Black Legion*naire.

That whole codex is black legion, It's fine for you. :laugh:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ROT said:


> Care to expand Mr. *Black Legion*naire.
> 
> That whole codex is black legion, It's fine for you. :laugh:


A good old fashion book burning?


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## Izzleydill (Jul 11, 2010)

The space marines having so many codices is major problem, but making multiple *CSM* codices only addds to the problem and makes it even longer between times for the codices to be released. They already have a huge plethera of options, look at the number of troop choices. Just continue to make them less copies of Space Marines and more their original codex. Chaos just needs some point updates really for the codex, well and fast attack help. Everyone wants 5000 codex options, but seriously compare your codex to the necrons and talk about options. As far as imperium there should be no more then 4 at most codices (Angels of Death, Space Marine, Imperium, Guard).


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> I'd like to see the reason why I started playing the game return.
> 
> That whole effort on gw to meet my standards for playing an army.
> 
> Or some effort. Any at all.





bitsandkits said:


> they need a titslug deamon





Roujheh said:


> It would be nice to have more than one competitive build. The codex might as well be named "Codex:Lash".


You people should write the next CSM Codex, I bet my ass it would be one hell of a fun to play. I mean it would have laughs, tits and muscle, what else could you possibly ask for?


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## The Black Legionnaire (Oct 18, 2010)

ROT said:


> Care to expand Mr. *Black Legion*naire.
> 
> That whole codex is black legion, It's fine for you. :laugh:


:laugh: Your right.

Oh, you know what would be nice though?

Expanded rules on Greater Daemons, I don't want my Bloodthirster to have the same stats as a giant, blooby Nurgle Daemon!


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

The Black Legionnaire said:


> :laugh: Your right.
> 
> Oh, you know what would be nice though?
> 
> Expanded rules on Greater Daemons, I don't want my Bloodthirster to have the same stats as a giant, blooby Nurgle Daemon!


Well technically, its not even a Daemon. The Daemons in the Daemon codex have a rule that says they're Daemons (this gives them Eternal Warrior and their inv saves), but those in the CSM Codex (DP, GD, LD) don't, they're Daemons only in name. So you could use a Chaos Spawn the size of a Carnifex as a GD and it wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would better represent the stats. This is the same kind of retarded thing like Obliterators being able to perform a Sweeping Advance because their wargear doesn't say they have Terminator Armour on (even though EVERY sign points in this direction) and SnP doesn't mind it.

Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud. I could be wrong, I sold my CSM Codex last week so I can't check.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree with most posters thus far. 

Added flavor could include . . . 

Daemon engines (cauldron of blood, blood slaughterer, cannon of khorne, etc.), some cultists, more useful dreads, marks \= icons, daemons that do unique things and are worth bringing.

And legion specific rules if you take a flavor of HQ, not a special character. i.e. Warsmith x points has a servo-arm, and allows this variant of the CSM list .... , with these .... requirements and these ..... penalties. Likewise for the other traitor legions


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> Well technically, its not even a Daemon. The Daemons in the Daemon codex have a rule that says they're Daemons (this gives them Eternal Warrior and their inv saves), but those in the CSM Codex (DP, GD, LD) don't, they're Daemons only in name. So you could use a Chaos Spawn the size of a Carnifex as a GD and it wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would better represent the stats. This is the same kind of retarded thing like Obliterators being able to perform a Sweeping Advance because their wargear doesn't say they have Terminator Armour on (even though EVERY sign points in this direction) and SnP doesn't mind it.
> 
> Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud. I could be wrong, I sold my CSM Codex last week so I can't check.



I use some random Happy meal toy my little girl got a couple years back. I just put it on a base and used it as a GD. It would be nice if they did add that they were daemons, but it might overpower a little.


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## Master WootWoot (Oct 17, 2010)

I want 5 chaos 'dexes! Both for Fantasy and 40.000! If every god got a codex including space marines/warriors and daemons (and beastmen for fantasy) with specific rules, and an undivided one, with all four gods' stuff, but not as many units from each, and not all the fancy rules...

The god called 'The Emperor' got eight already!

Wishlist:
Cultists (With fantasy and 40k options)
Plastic obliterators and raptors
Plastic Power Armour leader of some sort
Flamers and screamers plastics

Now i get into daemons... >


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## Doombreed (Dec 20, 2009)

For those of you that still can't figure out why CSM players hate on the new codex so much I'll make it simple. The last codex was fairly powerful but confusing (to players and opponents) so GW wanted to make it easier and faster to come up with a list. Mission accomplished. A little to well though as they made it a cookie cutter book (and even more so if you wanted to be a tournament list). Don't get me wrong, we have a good/strong codex we would just like to have more to choose from and still be good. (I just thought about Chaos Spawn... so terrible I threw up in my mouth a little)

I actually don't like to complain about it (or hear/read complaining about it) but would rather like to think of how sick the next one we get is going to be. I mean what they did to the new Space Marine and Imperial Guard codex, giving them new rules and toys and what not, its going to be mind blowing. I don't really agree with a book for every legion/god just one big book for all kinda like they did for C:SM.


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

So basically, everyone just wants the pevious codex.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's just no "passion" in the current codex it's far to plain.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

A new CSM dex needs to come with a box of tissues, because plenty of players will still cry over it when it comes out.

I would like to see abilites like Chapter tactics, albit weaker, be available on generic HQ units. Something that would improve the army as a whole, themed to a specific Mark. Such a thing would need to be play tested very extensivly. I think that would add in some very interesting aspects to the game, both currently and in future codexs


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

It needs lightweight, useful rules for individual legions. I mean, the loyalists are -supposed- to be all the same; they even have a big book of rules written by the most anal of all Primarchs to make it so! And yet they have more variation and flavor than the guys who are all change and chaos and..you get it. 

That doesn't need to be bulky. The much-beloved 3.5 book did with with 3 pages per legion and still managed to make an Iron Warriors army -very- different from a World Eaters one or Night Lords one. 

It needs at least one feasible option for each FOC. By feasible, I mean something that either a-) does its job in an effective, fluffy manner for a cheap price or b-) does a frickin' amazing job for a hefty price.

It needs internal balancing and rethinking of the HQ roles. You're think that the millenia-old special characters would have more fun rules and army-benefitting abilities rather than just being variably unimpressive CC monsters. It needs some basic rationality (Kharn and Ahriman have been tromping around for 8k+ years and never met an enemy with a Power Fist? Bring back Daemonic Rune!).

It needs love.


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## Perriwinkléé (Jul 13, 2010)

Wish list:

- Cultists.
- Some good fast attack options.
- Mark of Nurgle, usually the most expensive mark, doesn't even confer T5... So all those points I paid for my Lord to be T5 don't matter anymore because Billy over there has a powerfist.
- Some sort of bodyguard for HQ choices, not too OP, but something to A) stop ID a little bit and B) stop your Lord's losing fearless all the time.
- MARKS, not silly icons!
- Making Characters more worthwhile, like Dante, Sanguinor and some of the new DA stuff.
- New Obliterater models, please god give us new Obliterater models... Plastic ones at that. 

I'd like GW to keep bog standard CSM roughly where they are though, I like having boltguns, bolt pistols, chainswords, frags and kraks.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I definitely agree with the models.

I don't even understand the benefits of having Metal models..

Plague Marines and Obliterators need to become plastic. Just think; If oblits were Plastic, you could get like a box of 3 for £25, maybe less. Instead of buying 3 separately for £40..

Raptors need to go plastic also; but considering I'm famous for hating raptors, I'm not very fussed. :laugh:


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I got a blood slaughterer in my army


so do i, great model, even better if it was added in the next dex.



Master WootWoot said:


> Plastic Power Armour leader of some sort


dont really need one as we have the termi lord kit, which is an amazing kit.
if there was to be a plastic PA kit then it be good if it had legion war gear options like accursed crozius, servo arms etc 

I have to agree on the Icons becoming marks and the also agree on plastic oblits and rapters, also needed is plastic plague marines, full plastic noise marines and thousand sons, redone abbaddon model and kharn model.


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## Maverike Prime (May 4, 2010)

I had originally posted this in another thread but later been pointed to this thread. so here's my thoughts on the Chaos Army List question:

I do think that the current codex did a lot of things right and addressed several problems that were present in the prior codex. Being able to tool out every aspiring champion to a comparable level with your lord being one of the big ones. I was practically doing cart wheels when I found that you could now run Tzeentch marked marines that weren’t Thousand sons. Changing the Defiler from being a stationary gun with legs (Why would you ever do that in the first place?) to a more mobile fire base I think was a good step.


However, in working to correct those problems I think they forgot some things when they crafted the current Codex.

1) Where are the Legions? The Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Alpha legion are big name Chaos armies. With the Horus Heresy Novels, and other Black Library publications that focus heavily on these armies, people want to play them. But at present all they are, are names and colors and nothing more. 
Do I want them to bring back the old 9-mini dexs inside of the main codex? No. I think that was needlessly contradictory. I think this can be address by taking a cue from the Current Space marine Codex. You have a series of Characters that grant certain abilities to represent the army in question.

The Iron Warriors I think would be fairly simple: Give them the stubborn special rule for all the CSM, Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Lords.

The Nightlords are a bit more difficult to come up with an easy fix for just because of their character. There really isn’t a USR I can point to that would serve the Nightlords character, though giving them Acute senses to show they’re ability to see in the dark is a good start. The defining point of the Nightlords is their terror tactics. I think looking at the Blood Angels codex and more specifically the death mask rules is a good place to start. Give a special rule to select units, say Chosen, Possessed, Sorcerers and Lords that applies a negative leadership modifier to opponents they attack in close combat. The modifier would be cumulative with other modifiers. I haven’t had a chance to check out the new Dark Eldar Codex, but from what I’ve heard it may have some good starting points to look at for addressing the Night Lords.

The Alpha Legion… now there’s a challenge. In the past they’ve represented the alpha legion by giving them cultists that could infiltrate. But those tended to be less capable, less survivable, and less effective Imperial guard wannabes. More to the point, I never felt that that really represented the Alpha Legion’s belief in warfare, specifically the one that says to attack from a dozen different directions at the same time to inflict maximum disadvantage to the enemy while maximizing your own advantages. At a first thought, I think having a rule that allows Alpha Legion to booby trap terrain would be a good start. A rule that allows the Alpha Legion player to disrupt one opponents reserves might be a viable option as well.

2) Either give us back the Daemons or get them out of the book entirely. If we’re going to have Daemons, then give us Blood letters, Plauge bearers, Daemonettes, and Horrors. If we’re going to have Greater Daemons then give us Blood Thirsters, Keepers, Great unclean ones, and Lords of Change. If we’re not going to have them, then take them out of the book entirely.

3) Make the Daemon Prince more then just a Psychic powers dump. Give it options to really change it’s stats, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Wings, Daemonic Armor, Daemon weapon options. Make it so that the Daemon prince can be a real monster but worth the points. As it stands most people I’ve seen just use him for a Lash of Submission with wings.

4) Abaddon. Yes, he is bad ass. Make him worth taking for the army, not just himself. Abaddon is arguable the single most bad-ass mother loving beat you in the face s.o.b. to come out of the Eye of terror in the last ten thousand years. He has managed to unit the forces of Chaos into a coherent force not just once but 13 times. Give him an ability that affects the army to represent this. All Chaos Space Marines count has having an Icon of Chaos Glory for free perhaps.

5) Personally, I think there should be a distinction between “Renegade Space Marines” and the “Traitor Legion Marines”. The Traitor Legions have been duking it out in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. They are hard and battle worn even more so then normal marines, while Renagade Marine are closer to their loyalist brothers in terms of operating standard. I’ll be honest, off the top of my head I’m not really sure what would be a good way to address this particular distinction in game. Perhaps Renegades keep the current CSM stats and options, while Traitor Legion marines get Veteran skill options.

those are my thoughts.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

I dont think they need anything, they get way more then most other races.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Flindo said:


> I dont think they need anything, they get way more then most other races.


Three words ...... ARE YOU MENTAL?


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## Maverike Prime (May 4, 2010)

Flindo said:


> I dont think they need anything, they get way more then most other races.


'scuze me... can I get some of what you're smoking please?


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## Maverike Prime (May 4, 2010)

yanlou said:


> redone abbaddon model and kharn model.


I'm actually working on a new Abaddon model. You can check out my progress over here.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Give Termies something to either counter or equivalent to TH/SS, make Possessed into either a unit of normal Marines that can buy all sorts of upgrades or a special rule similar to that of the Ymgarl Stealers mutation rules.

Make all cult troops elites, and make Daemons god-specific, only summonable through a cult troop sergeant/unit (All cult troops count as having personal icons as standard gear) Collapse the Chaos Daemons codex so there can be more variety. Raptors should reduce all enemy leadership within 6" by one point, and gain an extra attack (Being vicious creatures).

Probably get rid of Lash and replace it with a different psychic power, same goes for Nurgle's Rot (Make it Strength 1 Poisoned 2+ AP4 template, a bit like the Bane Wolf) and increase the cost of it. Give Daemon Princes more options (Daemonic Gifts or God-specific upgrades like the old Axe of Khorne).

For Legion rules:
A Chaos Lord can take a 'legion mark' for a points cost, giving an army boost. Nothing too game-changing.
Black Legion: Units of Chaos Terminators may be taken as troops (To signify all the veterans in the Black Legion), less the 'Deep Strike' rules.

World Eaters: Khorne Berzerkers are counted as troops and you may take Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 attack and the special rule 'Furious Charge'. Sorcerors (As psykers) and cult troops of other gods may not be taken in a World Eaters army.

Thousand Sons: Rubric Marines are counted as troops and you may take Lords of Change and Pink Horrors as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains a force weapon and the Psyker rule and may pick two powers from the Chaos Psychic powers list. Thousand Sons sorcerors cannot suffer from Perils of the Warp. Cult troops of other gods and Possessed (As dust is unpossessable) may not be taken in a Thousand Sons army.

Death Guard: Plague Marines are counted as troops and you may take Great Unclean Ones and Plaguebearers as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +1 Toughness and the 'Feel No Pain' special rule, and his close combat attacks are poisoned (4+). Cult troops of other gods and Chosen (Being sneaky) may not be taken in a Death Guard army.

Emperor's Children: Noise Marines are counted as troops and you may take Keepers of Secrets and Daemonettes as summoned Daemons. The Chaos Lord gains +2 Initiative and the 'Acute Senses' special Rule. Cult troops of other gods and Obliterators (Being imperfect) may not be taken in an Emperor's Children army.

Word Bearers: Word Bearers may take Cultists as a troops choice and may take any Daemons as summoned Daemons (arriving through Cultists rather than through cult troops). The Chaos Lord may take an Accursed Crozius (Force Weapon) for 10 points. He cannot take damage from the 'Perils of the Warp' rule from using this ability.
Cultist:
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8
Sv: 5+
Pts: 6
Wargear: Lasgun and laspistol.
May take:
An Icon of Chaos Glory (Re-roll failed morale tests) for 10pts. May replace lasguns with close combat weapons at no additional cost.

Iron Warriors: Iron Warriors may take two extra Heavy Support units than is normally allowed. An Iron Warriors army may not include Possessed or any cult troops. The Chaos Lord gains a Servo-Arm (1 Strength 8 attack at Initiative 1) and the ability to repair damaged vehicles of a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised damage result on a 5+.

Alpha Legion: The Alpha Legion may take Cultists as troops. All infantry units gain the Infiltrate special rule. An Alpha Legion army may not include cult troops or Land Raiders.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as troops in a Night Lords army. All units cause a non-cumulative morale decrease as described in the Raptor entry. Night Lords may not take cult troops (Being staunchly Undivided) or Obliterators. The Chaos Lord must take a Jump Pack. All squad leaders have the option to take twin Lightning claws at 20pts for the pair.


All this.

Midnight


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Since everyone else is doing it, here is my Chaos 5th ed wish list:

1) Cult troops are elites. Having a HQ with their mark makes them troops.
2) Army wide special rule similar to combat tactics. 
3) Legion specific special characters that replace combat tactics with USR/unique abilities similar to loyalist 'dex.
4) Make possessed able to choose their mutations like in the 3rd ed 'dex.
5) Make chosen similar to wolf guard.
6) Make all of the fast attack choices actually half decent.
7) Throw in some unique and cool special rules:
- Chosen of the gods: may reroll a single D6 per turn.
8) And finally; GIVE US OUR FUCKING DAEMONS BACK.


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## Argitist (Apr 29, 2008)

I think all the gods should be in one dex, but it be more dependent on HQ's. Say, to play nurgle you need a nurgle hq, or khorne a khorne hq, etc. and maybe one special character that lets you play all. I like how different hq's in c:sm can change the army and give cool special abilities, but I don't like that they're all special characters. 

Then dread-claws, and good fast attack... and just some cooler units.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, for starters I think there should be two Chaos Codices.

*• CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES*
and
*• CODEX: CHAOS LEGIONS*

The idea being to focus each volume thusly: Codex: Chaos Space Marines to encompass the Black Legion (as the 'generic benchmark' legion to act as the equivalent to the Ultramarines for the Chaos side), the four Undivided Legions - Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Word Bearers - who had their rules removed in the current Codex, and any Cultist-type troops and also Daemons both Lesser and Greater, also generic/Undivided; and then Codex: Chaos Legions to concentrate purely on the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons and World Eaters Legions and the particular cultists and Daemons who accompany them. 

Right - specific ideas:


*CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES*

*• BLACK LEGION*
The basic reference point for any Chaos Marines not aligned with one specific Chaos God. All stats, rules and equipment choices are as per the current Codex, with the exception of the following additional items:

*ELITES*
*CHAOS TERMINATORS*
Chaos Terminators now have the Fearless special rule.
The cost of the Reaper autocannon weapon upgrade has been reduced to 20 points.
The cost of the heavy flamer weapon upgrade has been increased to 10 points.

*POSSESSED*
The Daemonkin special rule has been removed; a squad of Possessed Chaos Marines may now be upgraded with any one of the following special rules at the cost indicated:
Scouts or Fleet Of Foot at 10 points per model.
Rending or Wings or Furious Charge or Power Weapons at 15 points per model.
To balance the increased points cost this involves, the basic cost of Possessed has been lowered to 15 points per model.

*TROOPS*
*CHAOS SPACE MARINES*
In addition to their existing wargear options, Aspiring Champions from Chaos Marine squads may now also choose to replace their close-combat weapon with a single lightning claw for 20 points, or to replace bolter, bolt pistol and close-combat weapon with a pair of lightning claws for 25 points.

*FAST ATTACK*
*CHAOS BIKERS*
Chaos Bikers now have the option of upgrading any Bikes in the squad to Attack Bikes at a cost of 10 points per model. 

*CHAOS SPAWN*
The cost of Chaos Spawn has been lowered to 30 points per model. 
The Attacks characteristic of a Chaos Spawn has been changed to 2+D3 Attacks.

*HEAVY SUPPORT*
*CHAOS HAVOCS*
In addition to their existing wargear options, any of the four members of a Chaos Havoc squad that may take a heavy weapons choice now have the option of upgrading their bolter to a plasma cannon for 25 points.

*SUMMONED DAEMONS*
Multiple types of both Lesser and Greater Daemons may now be summoned, with the following characteristics:

*Summoned Greater Daemon*
Greater Daemon of Chaos – WS:8 BS:0 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:5 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:-/4+
Bloodthirster – WS:9 BS:0 S:7 T:6 W:4 I:5 A:6 Ld:10 Sv:-/4+
Great Unclean One – WS:8 BS:0 S:6 T:8 W:5 I:5 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:-/4+
Lord Of Change – WS:8 BS:3 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:5 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:-/3+
Keeper Of Secrets – WS:8 BS:0 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:7 A:6 Ld:10 Sv:-/4+

The Lord Of Change has the Doombolt psychic power. 
The cost of the Greater Daemon of Chaos remains the same at 100 points, but the Bloodthirster, Great Unclean One, Lord Of Change and Keeper Of Secrets cost 115 points per model to reflect their increased stats. In addition, while a Greater Daemon of Chaos can be summoned to possess any Champion, Sorceror or Lord, the Greater Daemons of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch can only possess Champions, Sorcerors or Lords with their particular Icon or Mark. 

*Summoned Lesser Daemons*
Lesser Daemon of Chaos – WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:-/5+
Bloodletter – WS:5 BS:0 S:5 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:3 Ld:10 Sv:-/5+
Plaguebearer – WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:6 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:-/5+
Horror - WS:4 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:-/4+
Daemonette - WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:6 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:-/5+

The Horror has the Lesser Doombolt psychic ability; when used, this counts as a weapon with the following profile (roll to hit and wound as normal):
Range: 12” Str:3 AP:4 Assault 2 

The cost of the Lesser Daemon of Chaos remains the same at 13 points, but the Bloodletter, Plaguebearer, Horror and Daemonette cost 20 points per model to reflect their increased stats. 

______________________


The named Legions share most characteristics with the Black Legion, with the exception of the following additional items:

*• ALPHA LEGION*

*Legion Special Rules*

*• Insertion* - Any Alpha Legion Troop unit may take the Infiltrate special ability for +15 points per unit. 

*• Insidious* – Any Alpha Legion Troop unit may take the Move Through Cover special ability for +15 points per unit.

*• Cultists* The Alpha Legion frequently employs cells of Chaos Cultists as infiltrators; these units are treated as a Troop choice but do not take up any slots on the Force Organisation chart. 

*Chaos Cultist* - Points/model:7 WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:6+
*Cult Leader* – Points/model:+5 WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:5+

*Unit Type:* 
• Infantry

*Number/squad:* 
• 5-20

*Wargear:* 
• laspistol
• close-combat weapon

*Special Rules:* 
• As members of the general populace, familiar with local society, terrain and defences, all Chaos Cultists have the Infiltrate special rule.

*Character:* 
• One model per squad may be upgraded to a Cult Leader for 5 points.
• His ranged weapon may be upgraded to a plasma pistol for 15 points.
• He may take frag grenades for 5 points.
• He may take carapace armour (Sv:4+) for 5 points.

*Options:*
• One model may carry a demolition charge for 30 points.


*• IRON WARRIORS*

*Legion Special Rules*

*• Siege Mastery* - An Iron Warriors army may take two extra Heavy Support choices, for a total of five. 

*• Perturabo’s Will* – As resolute in defence as they are relentless in offence, all Iron Warriors have the Stubborn special rule.

*• Legion Wargear*
Due to the high number of Techmarines among the ranks of the Iron Warriors, wargear options are available to them that are not frequently found in the armouries of other Legions. 
• Servo Arm – 30 points
A servo arm may be taken as a wargear option by any Iron Warriors Lord, Terminator Champion or Aspiring Champion. In close combat it serves as an extra close-combat weapon for an additional Attack at Strength 6 and Initiative 3, regardless of the model’s own Initiative. A model may also choose to use their servo arm to repair any immobilised vehicle within 2” of the model; this takes one whole turn, and that model may not perform any other action that turn. 


*• NIGHT LORDS*

*Legion Special Rules*

*• Apocalyptic Raids* – A Night Lords army may take two extra Fast Attack choices, for a total of five.

*• Terror Tactics* – Any successful Morale check made by a unit fighting against the forces of the Night Lords must be re-rolled, and the lowest result taken. 

*• In Midnight Clad* – Night Lords live and train in absolute darkness, and are unaffected by it. All HQ, Elite and Troop models in a Night Lords army have the Night Vision rule.

*• Purity Of Essence* – The Night Lords dislike the use of Daemons, and as such Night Lords armies may not include any Lesser or Greater Daemons within their ranks; in addition they may not employ Possessed.


*• WORD BEARERS*

*Legion Special Rules* 

*• At One With The Warp* – The Word Bearers have spread the worship of Chaos across the galaxy for ten thousand years, blighting uncounted worlds with the taint of the Warp; their bond with the realm of the Daemons is now so strong that they use Daemons alongside their own forces as a matter of course. A Word Bearers army may use Lesser Daemons without the need for an Icon of Chaos to summon them, and may deploy them from the start of the game as they would any other Troop unit without their having to be deployed from Reserve. Greater Daemons are treated as normal in that they still need to possess a model and have to arrive from Reserve, but the roll to arrive from Reserve is 2+ during turn 2 and automatic on Turn 3.

*• Zealots* – So driven are the Word Bearers to spread the word of Chaos that they use their faith to strengthen their resolve on the battlefield. All models in a Word Bearers army have the Fearless special rule.

*• Dark Devotion* – Word Bearers worship Chaos in its purest form and in all its aspects, and refuse to ally themselves to any one of the Ruinous Powers; as such, no model in a Word Bearers army may take any Mark or Icon of Chaos other than that of Chaos Glory. 

*• Black Apostle of Chaos* - The Chaplains of the Word Bearers Legion who embraced the worship of Chaos during the Horus Heresy have spent millennia preaching the Black Gospels of the Warp, and now occupy exalted positions within the ranks of the Legion. A Word Bearers army may take a Black Apostle of Chaos as an HQ choice.

*Black Apostle of Chaos* Cost: 100 points
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:6 A:3 Ld:10 Sv:3+/5+

*Unit Type:* 
• Infantry

*Number/squad:* 
• 1

*Wargear:* 
• Power Armour
• Bolt Pistol
• Power Weapon
• Frag Grenades
• Krak Grenades

*Special Rules:* 
• Independent Character
• 5+ Invulnerable Save
• Litany of Detestation
- The Black Apostle recites a constant stream of blasphemous invective against the Corpse-Emperor and all his snivelling lackeys, beseeching the power of Chaos itself to strike down those who oppose the Word Bearers’ righteous crusade. While the Black Apostle is not a psyker himself, the Litany of Detestation concentrates his faith to such an extent that it effectively functions as a shield against psychic attacks; any successful Perils Of The Warp test made by a psyker using a psychic power against a Black Apostle must be re-rolled, and the lowest result taken.

*Options:*
• May replace bolt pistol with:
- plasma pistol for 15 points.
- combi-weapon for 5 points.
• May take meltabombs for 5 points.
• May take Personal Icon for 5 points.
• May replace power weapon with a Crozius Maleficarum for 40 points.
- The Crozius Maleficarum is a power weapon infused with the dark energies of the Warp, which allows the wielder to re-roll any failed to-hit rolls. In addition it increases the Black Apostle’s Invulnerable save to 4+.

*• Supplicants of Chaos* – Those turned to the worship of Chaos by the Word Bearers are often used as cannon fodder in their campaigns; crazed fanatics with scant regard for self-preservation, these dregs are sent in as the first wave as much to deplete an enemy’s ammunition supply as anything else. These units are treated as a Troop choice but do not take up any slots on the Force Organisation chart. 

*Supplicant of Chaos* - Points/model:4 WS:2 BS:2 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:5 Sv:6+

*Unit Type:* 
• Infantry

*Number/squad:* 
• 5-30

*Wargear:* 
• laspistol 
• close-combat weapon

*Special Rules:* 
• As members of the general populace, familiar with local society, terrain and defences, Supplicants of Chaos have the Infiltrate special rule.





...phew. Right, that took hours, so I'm going to have a break before I start on my ideas for Codex: Chaos Legions.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Svartmetall, although I agree with a lot of what you said, the points values seem incredible fan boyish/not balanced. Honestly 15 points to give a entire units infiltrate?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There's no downside for the legions though, I find that a bit strange. You can take 5 Land Raiders in an army for just extra points? Taking 15 Obliterators? Not a fan.

Midnight


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Svartmetall, although I agree with a lot of what you said, the points values seem incredible fan boyish/not balances. Honestly 15 points to give a entire units infiltrate?


Hmm you're right - that's a bit crazy. SuperScouts at 15pts extra per squad.

Gonna run blobs of 20 Khorne Berserkers, infiltrate them for 15pts extra - fun fun fun.

With the possessed - while it seems legit
; you can start drawing comparisons.

For Example:
Give them all Power weapons, 30 pts per model now, same as terminators. So they're now STR5 Termies, with no deepstrike or terminator armour - probably wouldn't work.

Otherwise, great ideas Svart, really quite something. - It'd be worth making an entire thread about that: some really cool ideas - even as a make-do codex for us to play by!


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