# A Hero returns



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Dan Abnett has confirmed it. The heroic captain Garviel Loken will be returning in the HH series, and that "rumours of his death have been greatly exaggerated."

Looking forward to seeing his return, for those of you who have read Fulgrim when Lucius and Eidolon speak after the loyalist bombing is over, Lucius says that Ancient Rylanor, a dreadnought of the Emperor's children, was sent to guard something underground the palace, supposedly a secret hangar.

Im betting that they found a ship and escaped. While Loken is definitely alive this lends credit that Saul Tarvitz, Ancient Rylanor and the other doomed heroes at Istvaan could still live on.


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

Sweet action. Loken is the best character BL have come up with in the HH series and Im eagerly awaiting his return. The impression of his death was suprisingly moving for a heartless bastard like me. Hes a true pillar of Space Marine perfection


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

This is fairly old news now. This interview was done months ago I believe.

Personally im disappointed with the decision to bring back Loken. Yes he was a decent enough character, but I think his death served more to portray the brutality of the Traitors and to give us as readers a sense of loss and sacrifice. Bringing him back is too cliche for my likings, and they'll probably end up doing it in an unbelievable pathetic way:

"Yea he survived the Virus bombings, the subsequent Firestorm, getting battered by Kharn, getting even more battered by Abaddon and then survived the final orbital bombardment and the building collapsing on him...." :rollseyes: 

I think the story of Loken would have portrayed the heresy better if he had died on Isstvan III. Otherwise Isstvan III doesnt come across as a tradegy as much in my opinion.

A sacrifice is only a sacrifice after all if we lose someone/thing we care about. As readers we dont care about the large numbers of nameless Death Guard who were killed in the trenches, we care about the major characters. We cared that Loken 'died', now that we know he didn't die, Isstvan III isn't as much of a shock/tradegy/decent story.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm surprised with Abnett for doing this, he's had no problem sacrificing popular characters in Gaunts Ghosts for exactly the reasons Child-of-the-Emperor has stated. Imagine if he'd brought Bragg or Corbec back? How would that cheapen the emotional impact of their deaths, but he seems fine donig it with Loken


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is fairly old news now. This interview was done months ago I believe.
> 
> Personally im disappointed with the decision to bring back Loken. Yes he was a decent enough character, but I think his death served more to portray the brutality of the Traitors and to give us as readers a sense of loss and sacrifice. Bringing him back is too cliche for my likings, and they'll probably end up doing it in an unbelievable pathetic way:
> 
> ...


It still is quite tragic. What about Solomon Demeter or Tarik Torgaddon?, both of their deaths were very tragic.

Im glad that Loken is still alive but im personally hoping that Saul Tarvitz is still alive.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I personally wish to see Nero Vipus survive 
i was annoyed that he got absolutely nothing in the tragic ending
He was one of my favourite characters and i felt he was underplayed.

I personally think Loken should stay dead. It symbolises the complete break down of the mournbil and the brutal cruelty of the traitors, merciless.

It always took him to be dead and was very happy with that, however Abnett is hardly saying he is or isnt dead. he is just leaving it open ended to create a little more tension. Plus it gives him the option... and it is a good solid option

However I do with Child of the Emperor he has survived to much... its almost like they are desperate to keep him alive. I thought the Kharn part was stretching it a bit


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is fairly old news now. This interview was done months ago I believe.
> 
> Personally im disappointed with the decision to bring back Loken. Yes he was a decent enough character, but I think his death served more to portray the brutality of the Traitors and to give us as readers a sense of loss and sacrifice. Bringing him back is too cliche for my likings, and they'll probably end up doing it in an unbelievable pathetic way:
> 
> ...


i agree, Loken does more for the HH series dying as a hero. as does Saul and crew. bringing them back is a very 'michael bay' thing to do i mean seriously, he had already copped a pounding BEFORE his rumble with Abbadon and even then he got wipped more AND a building fell on him, if Abbadon struggled to get out of the rubble then there was no way Loken would. + he saw the blast coming from in the rubble, so its not like he had escaped before hand... hmmm... just doesnt seem plausable.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is fairly old news now. This interview was done months ago I believe.
> 
> Personally im disappointed with the decision to bring back Loken. Yes he was a decent enough character, but I think his death served more to portray the brutality of the Traitors and to give us as readers a sense of loss and sacrifice. Bringing him back is too cliche for my likings, and they'll probably end up doing it in an unbelievable pathetic way:
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part, with one exception. I would have liked to have seen Loken wake up after the bombardment and be able to record what happened on I3 for prosperity. I think one of the largest let downs was that the sacrafice of the loyalist was unrecorded. It is bad enough their gene seed is never used, but everything they fought for on I3 went down in history as them being traitors. A recording found centuries or even milenia later could have fixed that and kept the story in tact.

Other than that, I agree - this is too comic bookish. Not comepletely unexpected though, they left a lot of wiggle room to be able to bring back Loken and Saul.

Now if they bring back Tarik...


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

No need for a recording. Ferrus Manus found out about it from Fulgrim and told the other Primarchs and the Emperor about it. The Istvaan marines are known as Heroes.

Plus Nathaniel Garro would have told Malcador and the Emperor about it when he and Iacton Qruze were taken in.


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## ChaplinWhulfgar (May 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is fairly old news now. This interview was done months ago I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The resultant shock sent him falling through the ground ending up by the ship.:mrgreen:


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Plus Nathaniel Garro would have told Malcador and the Emperor about it when he and Iacton Qruze were taken in.


bingo, Garro got the truth to terra.


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

No Way! Loken is back....back with snacks....

~Beltiac...


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

*loken*

Great! Loken is back. Does that mean that the main HH story thread can continue? No offence to anyone involved, but COME ON ALREADY!!! i've had to re-read the first three books, 3 times! just to keep my interest in. Granted, Fulgrim and Legion were pretty good, but the others were like pulling teeth. The Dark Angels can kiss my Khaos ridden pus orifice, Lion el Johnson needs to get over himself. A primarch called 'Lionel'? i kept expecting him to bust out Jazz Hands. 
Loken is a great character, if only for the hillarious, sexually repressed subplot that was revealed whenever that rememberancer bird turned up. "Loken scanned her firm tight body and began rigorously polishing his helmet", seriously that dude used more 'lapping powder' in that first book than the rest of his legion combined.
And did i imagine the scene where two of the mournival are chatting and one goes "Oo what are we like eh?"? I swear they are only minutes away from whipping out their bolters and comparing girth. 
Also, why has nobody asked whether the E man is working for Khorn on the sly? Surely all those deaths must have attracted some attention from warp by now!
Anyone?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

You mean whether the Emperor is a Chaos follower. No. Thats impossible.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> You mean whether the Emperor is a Chaos follower. No. Thats impossible.


Is it... really? & Why is that?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Because if he was then Horus would have been the loyalists against him, while he would have tried to corrupt the Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Because if he was then Horus would have been the loyalists against him, while he would have tried to corrupt the Imperium.


Thats a very naive view! (no offence)

The Chaos Powers and thus the agents of Chaos are Chaotic and therefore do not have to act in rational ways.

You are seeing the 40k galaxy as completley clear cut, it is not. How do we know the Emperor wasn't an agent of Chaos? what is your evidence? 

Maybe Horus was acting in the interest of humanity, maybe the Emperor was an agent of Chaos, and Horus was actually the good guy - who is to say the Emperor was good and Horus was bad...


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats a very naive view! (no offence)
> 
> The Chaos Powers and thus the agents of Chaos are Chaotic and therefore do not have to act in rational ways.
> 
> ...


I think around the time Horus started consorting with Daemons you could count him out as being one of the "good guys". You can make the argument that the emperor wasn't a "good guy", but to suggest Horus was anything other than evil is just playing games with the facts.

In real life if you start making pacts with Daemons I think it would be a safe assumption that you are not "pure of heart". Even before the mass summonings he did on terra during the seige he left his own brother possesed by a Daemon to further his own ends (Fulgrim).

And of course there is the "look at it" factor of chaos marines. Nope, if they are acting in "the best interest of humanity" than we need to let extinction run its course.

In 40k I see it like this. Living under the emps. rule is like living during Inquisition. Pretty bad right? Well, I would pick that every time and twice on Sundays over living in a Nazi death camp (which the equiv. of Chaos).

In the 40k universe there is no "good", just lesser extents of evil.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Does anyone remember the short story in tales of heresy 'the last church'? the way the big E talked towards the end of that story drew many similarities with another leader in history... Hitler. Seriously! The way he talked about how anything that defied his rule would be exterminated... Hmmmm makes you think.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> In real life if you start making pacts with Daemons I think it would be a safe assumption that you are not "pure of heart". Even before the mass summonings he did on terra during the seige he left his own brother possesed by a Daemon to further his own ends (Fulgrim).


Why are Daemons inherently bad? Why does making deals with them make you the 'bad guy'? If the end justifies the means, Horus' dealings were totally justified.



Zooey72 said:


> And of course there is the "look at it" factor of chaos marines. Nope, if they are acting in "the best interest of humanity" than we need to let extinction run its course.


The Chaos Marines in M41 (going by this course of argument) may well have fallen from the vision of Horus and devolved into worship of the Chaos Gods, which wasn't Horus' intention at all.



Zooey72 said:


> In 40k I see it like this. Living under the emps. rule is like living during Inquisition. Pretty bad right? Well, I would pick that every time and twice on Sundays over living in a Nazi death camp (which the equiv. of Chaos).


Why is that the equivilant of Chaos compared to the Imperium's vile regime? 

Lorgar's ultimate objective (as seen in _Battle for the Abyss_) is to make the entire galaxy a warp-overlap thus freeing the restraints on Mankinds Psyche and Mind, and allowing humanity to achieve its full potential. Who is to say that Chaos is worse than Order? 



Zooey72 said:


> In the 40k universe there is no "good", just lesser extents of evil.


Of Course. 



Brother Subtle said:


> Does anyone remember the short story in tales of heresy 'the last church'? the way the big E talked towards the end of that story drew many similarities with another leader in history... Hitler. Seriously! The way he talked about how anything that defied his rule would be exterminated... Hmmmm makes you think.


Indeed.  Also when the Priest asked him why he was any different to the vile tyrants and extreme religious leaders of the past he replied, 'Because I know im right'... says a lot!

And the bit when the Emperor declares that without his armies mankind would have dragged itself into extinction, and the Priest replies (along the lines of) 'maybe it would have been better that way...'

Thought provoking.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Maybe Horus was acting in the interest of humanity, maybe the Emperor was an agent of Chaos, and Horus was actually the good guy - who is to say the Emperor was good and Horus was bad...


I never said the Emperor was a good guy. There is no good in the 40k universe, only degrees of evil.

The Emperor was just better then Horus, not by very much though.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't know why everyone assumes only one side can be chaos! The chaos Gods fight all the time, and withing the Legions (Both mortal and Daemonic) there is almost constant infighting. On that basis, why couldn't the Big-E and Horus both be Chaos, and Chaos was doing what it does best, be Chaotic! 

On the subject of Horus being the bad guy, if the Inquisition and other factions of the Imperium have drifted from the Emperor's goal and mission, and he was creating order, surly it is obvious that chaos factions would do that more so! However much I loved Loken and Saul as characters, I think their deaths were much better as sacrifices than "Oh, ok you killed us...*waits five minutes*...and we're back!" However as a true Chaos fan, I loved seeing Lucius P'own that Chapin guy, Saul and several others, and I liked seeing Kharn go crazy at Loken screaming "I AM THE EIGHT-FOLD PATH!"


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I never said the Emperor was a good guy. There is no good in the 40k universe, only degrees of evil.
> 
> The Emperor was just better then Horus, not by very much though.


Ok I chose the wrong choice of words. My question was essentially why couldn't the Emperor have been an agent of Chaos?


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why are Daemons inherently bad? Why does making deals with them make you the 'bad guy'? If the end justifies the means, Horus' dealings were totally justified.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, this is what I am talking about. This is some moral equivelency where there is none. Lorgar's "dream" would be some hellish mix between "Hellraiser" and "Event Horizion". Oh sure, some people may be "enlightened" like Dr. Wier or one of the cinabites, but I think I will stay away from that kind of F'd upidness - reguardless of how "englightened" I might become.

There is no way you are going to convince me or anyone else that the fate the emp. has for humanity is worse than exploding into a chaos spawn like Jubal or Decius. I don't think you really believe it either, but playing devil's advocate.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> See, this is what I am talking about. This is some moral equivelency where there is none. Lorgar's "dream" would be some hellish mix between "Hellraiser" and "Event Horizion". Oh sure, some people may be "enlightened" like Dr. Wier or one of the cinabites, but I think I will stay away from that kind of F'd upidness - reguardless of how "englightened" I might become.
> 
> There is no way you are going to convince me or anyone else that the fate the emp. has for humanity is worse than exploding into a chaos spawn like Jubal or Decius. I don't think you really believe it either, but playing devil's advocate.




There was a good analogy over on the Black Library forums a while back that suggested that the difference between the Imperium and the Forces of Chaos boiled down to the choice of:

Either building an ordered civilisation and life out of your surroundings or simply saying 'Fuck it' and run around naked in the woods. It is the choice between Order and Chaos, we at different times wish to do one and at others the other, 'Chaos' (in the sense of running around naked in the woods) always maintains a 'presence' in all of our psyches, and is always a part of our desires.

Men in M41 understand next-to-nothing about the warp, they are hardly qualified to state that they know with complete certainty that what the Emperor had planned for humanity was better than what Lorgar wants. 

Lets look at the advantages of a galaxy-wide permenant warp rift where Chaos reigns.

Advantages:

1. Mankind reaches its true psychic potential, and the Psyker gene becomes fully evolved.
2. The galaxy becomes a place where the truley strong-willed rule. Each man rises to power on his own merit, not through title or birth-place.
3. Each Man has the potential to rise up and change his life, Unlike in the Imperium where the vast majority of men live horrible lives, oppressed and with no opportunities.
4. Mankind embraces his own natural instincts and 'runs around naked in the woods' (to use my previous analogy.)
5. Mankind has and can wield the power it needs to truley rule the galaxy and crush all Xenos opposition, who if the status quo of M41 remains will eventually crush the Imperium and Mankind will fall into extinction.

As you said these arn't necessary strictly my views but I like to keep an open mind


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There was a good analogy over on the Black Library forums a while back that suggested that the difference between the Imperium and the Forces of Chaos boiled down to the choice of:
> 
> Either building an ordered civilisation and life out of your surroundings or simply saying 'Fuck it' and run around naked in the woods. It is the choice between Order and Chaos, we at different times wish to do one and at others the other, 'Chaos' (in the sense of running around naked in the woods) always maintains a 'presence' in all of our psyches, and is always a part of our desires.
> 
> ...


Still have not shown me how that existance wouldn't be some insane mix between "Event Horizion" and "Hellraiser". (Did you read about the Noise Marines in 'Fulgrim')?

Chaos in M41 enslaves, it does not set free. Not sure if you read the HH books but just about every person who falls to Chaos isn't happy about it. Look at the "outlines" of their former selves with Jubal, Temba, and Decius. I really don't think Fulgrim is happy about his role in Chaos's grand scheme either. When not under the sway of Chaos Temba tried to persuade Horus not to do it.

Hey, maybe a cynabite has some insane understanding that I will never comprehend. Maybe the "the Dark" in "Event Horizion" is a nice place to live. I am sure Lorgar would agree with you. But you first dude, I will stay tentacle free and non batshit crazy.


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats a very naive view! (no offence)
> 
> The Chaos Powers and thus the agents of Chaos are Chaotic and therefore do not have to act in rational ways.
> 
> ...


The emperor's activity must have attracted some attention from the warp. Yeah, you are right, Chaos does not act in rational ways, it simply reflects whatever feeling or sensation that is put into it. Check this from the Principia Hermetica.
“The astral plane is inhabited by many other beings, of which I will mention only a few species. There are, for example, the so called elementaries, beings with only one or a few attributes which are dependant upon which element-vibrations are dominant. They maintain themselves from the same kind of vibrations that are peculiar to human beings and which people send out into the astral plane. Among them are those who have already reached a certain degree of intelligence. Certain magicians can make use of these lower forces in order to indulge in their selfish intentions. There is also another kind of being, the so-called lavae, which are called into existence through the astral matrix, intentionally or unintentionally, by intensive emotional thinking. They are not actual beings, but merely forms which keep themselves alive from the passions of the animalistic world on the lowest level of the astral plane. Their instinct for self-preservation takes them into the sphere of those human beings whose passions attract them. They attempt to awaken and call forth directly or indirectly the passions which lie dormant in a human being. Should these forms be successful in enticing the individual to a passion which is to their liking, then they nourish, maintain and strengthen themselves from the emanation which this passion brings forth from this person. One who is laden with many passions brings with him a host of such larvae into the lowest sphere of his astral plane and a big struggle ensues with these larvae”
Now apply this principle to the crusade. War lasting millennia must have evoked a similar or equal presence within the warp.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Dont you think it would be cool for the person who Horus kills to convince the big E to kill him to be Loken?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Chaos in M41 enslaves, it does not set free.


Any more so than the Emperor?

The Emperor needed to enslave humanity and force the Imperial 'Truth' on his subjects in order to weaken Chaos, Chaos does the complete opposite, it frees humanity completley from all bonds - humans in there most natural and unordered form is what is most favourable to Chaos. Without rules or social burdens humanity acts in such a way which is more favourable to the Chaos Gods. It boils down again to the choice between Order and Chaos.

Im not saying that being truley 'free' is the best option for humanity, but it is what Chaos encourages and what is most favourable to Chaos in Humanity. 



Zooey72 said:


> Not sure if you read the HH books but just about every person who falls to Chaos isn't happy about it. Look at the "outlines" of their former selves with Jubal, Temba, and Decius. I really don't think Fulgrim is happy about his role in Chaos's grand scheme either. When not under the sway of Chaos Temba tried to persuade Horus not to do it.


Because they were brought up with and were fighting for the ideal of the Imperial Truth, which was a lie. They didn't understand the warp at all, and the unknown to any man is frightening.



Captain Stillios said:


> Dont you think it would be cool for the person who Horus kills to convince the big E to kill him to be Loken?


No. 



radicallight said:


> The emperor's activity must have attracted some attention from the warp. Yeah, you are right, Chaos does not act in rational ways, it simply reflects whatever feeling or sensation that is put into it. Check this from the Principia Hermetica.
> “The astral plane is inhabited by many other beings, of which I will mention only a few species. There are, for example, the so called elementaries, beings with only one or a few attributes which are dependant upon which element-vibrations are dominant. They maintain themselves from the same kind of vibrations that are peculiar to human beings and which people send out into the astral plane. Among them are those who have already reached a certain degree of intelligence. Certain magicians can make use of these lower forces in order to indulge in their selfish intentions. There is also another kind of being, the so-called lavae, which are called into existence through the astral matrix, intentionally or unintentionally, by intensive emotional thinking. They are not actual beings, but merely forms which keep themselves alive from the passions of the animalistic world on the lowest level of the astral plane. Their instinct for self-preservation takes them into the sphere of those human beings whose passions attract them. They attempt to awaken and call forth directly or indirectly the passions which lie dormant in a human being. Should these forms be successful in enticing the individual to a passion which is to their liking, then they nourish, maintain and strengthen themselves from the emanation which this passion brings forth from this person. One who is laden with many passions brings with him a host of such larvae into the lowest sphere of his astral plane and a big struggle ensues with these larvae”
> Now apply this principle to the crusade. War lasting millennia must have evoked a similar or equal presence within the warp.


Im not perfectly clear about where your going with that  - Could you maybe explain it more thoroughly? :good:


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

I guess i am trying to convey something of the nature of the warp, and how the various chaos gods came into being. The warp operates outside of the human notion of morality- good and bad, which are man made constructs- and simply reflects what ever is present in the physical realm. Like attracts like. Or more specifically, like brings like into being from the immeterium. Fulgrim attracted the attention of Slaanesh, because of his love of bachanalian excessess and sensual stimulation. But Slaanesh was brought into being, originally, through the actions of the Eldar (am i right?). In quoting the "Hermetica" i am demonstrating that any conscious presence within the warp has it origins in the physical realm, because in itself, chaos has no consciousness. 
Following this train of logic, it would suggest then that the Emperor, having conquered a large portion of the universe through violence and oppression, would have brought into being a similar presence from within chaos. Through his actions, and despite his protestations of universal atheism, he has possibly created a god of war and fasist rule (does Khorn not fit this bill?).
Now, assuming that the Emperor has a fairly intimate understanding of the warp, and the basic mechanics or cause and response, then does it not suggest that he is aware of how his actions are represented within the warp?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

radicallight said:


> I guess i am trying to convey something of the nature of the warp, and how the various chaos gods came into being. The warp operates outside of the human notion of morality- good and bad, which are man made constructs- and simply reflects what ever is present in the physical realm.


Yes indeed 



radicallight said:


> But Slaanesh was brought into being, originally, through the actions of the Eldar (am i right?).


Yes it was the Eldar's reckless pursuit of a hedonistic lifestyle which over many thousands of years brought Slaanesh finally into 'consciousness'. Although other races and species may have made a minor contribution, it was largely the fault of the Eldar, hence why Slaanesh is 'attuned' to all Eldar souls and will consume them automatically upon death if they are not protected.

Although if were being technical Slaanesh always existed within the warp, even before the Eldar race even properly evolved:



Chaos Daemons Codex said:


> ...That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed within the warp, and yet has never existed.


So technically the warp actually distorts such 'cause & effect' events like the Eldar giving birth to Slaanesh. 



radicallight said:


> Following this train of logic, it would suggest then that the Emperor, having conquered a large portion of the universe through violence and oppression, would have brought into being a similar presence from within chaos. Through his actions, and despite his protestations of universal atheism, he has possibly created a god of war and fasist rule (does Khorn not fit this bill?).


Well I imagine all the bloodshed and war would have just further empowered the 4 major Chaos Gods. The galaxy has seen on several occasions conflicts that matched the Great Crusade in its ferocity and scale, thus if a new god was to be born it would have been created long before the Great Crusade. To be honest most conflicts and actions in the galaxy will come under one of the 4 Major Chaos Gods, thats why there the most powerful and dominant in the warp.



radicallight said:


> Now, assuming that the Emperor has a fairly intimate understanding of the warp, and the basic mechanics or cause and response, then does it not suggest that he is aware of how his actions are represented within the warp?


Yes I imagine he knew that his Great Crusade would just further empower the Chaos Gods. But he needed to unite humanity under his Iron Rule and enforce the Imperial Truth before humanity collapsed into extinction. Personally I see each step of action we know about the Emperor part of his plan to weaken Chaos and its grasp over humanity:

1. Defeated the Void Dragon and imprison him on Mars, thus indirectly creating the Mechanicum which would enable the Great Crusade to take place.
2. Unite the warring factions of Terra under his rule, and create the First Space Marines/Primarchs during the Unification period, which is another factor which will enable the Great Crusade to take place.
3. Conquer the Galaxy in the Great Crusade. Unite all of humanity under his rule and enforce the Imperial Truth, thus starving Chaos of worship (even unconscious or indirect worship).
3.A) Banning Sorcery at the Council of Nikaea, which in itself would reduce the influence of Chaos.
3.B) Safetly training and Instructing developing Psykers so that they don't pose a threat and make it much harder for them to be corrupted by Chaos.
4. The Invasion of the Webway which if completed would have freed humanity from reliance on Warp Travel, thus reducing the importance of the Warp for the Imperium, also weakening the influence of the Chaos Gods.

If you look at it this way all of his actions were part of his plan to Weaken Chaos. Thus the bloodshed caused by the Great Crusade was entirely justified, if the end justifies the mean of course


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes I imagine he knew that his Great Crusade would just further empower the Chaos Gods. But he needed to unite humanity under his Iron Rule and enforce the Imperial Truth before humanity collapsed into extinction. Personally I see each step of action we know about the Emperor part of his plan to weaken Chaos and its grasp over humanity:
> 
> 1. Defeated the Void Dragon and imprison him on Mars, thus indirectly creating the Mechanicum which would enable the Great Crusade to take place.
> 2. Unite the warring factions of Terra under his rule, and create the First Space Marines/Primarchs during the Unification period, which is another factor which will enable the Great Crusade to take place.
> ...


Dont forget that he downplayed Chaos's existence. He wanted to make sure that nobody, save the Primarchs and his most trusted allies, knew about it to limit the possibilities of corruption.

I have read, somewhere, that if humanity goes any further into Chaos then a Fall of Man will occur and a new Chaos God, stronger then even the other four combined, will rise and be able to dominate all creation. A new Eye of Terror that will cover the entire galaxy will be formed. Personally if a new Chaos God arose from humans i'd think it would look like Satan, be very fitting.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Dont forget that he downplayed Chaos's existence. He wanted to make sure that nobody, save the Primarchs and his most trusted allies, knew about it to limit the possibilities of corruption.


Thats what I said, Thats what the Imperial Truth is. 

& for the record - He didn't even really tell the Primarchs (His 'Sons' and most trusted generals) about Chaos.



Lord of the Night said:


> I have read, somewhere, that if humanity goes any further into Chaos then a Fall of Man will occur and a new Chaos God, stronger then even the other four combined, will rise and be able to dominate all creation. A new Eye of Terror that will cover the entire galaxy will be formed. Personally if a new Chaos God arose from humans i'd think it would look like Satan, be very fitting.


Personally I highly disagree with that theory. All of the aspects of man are already covered by the 4 major Chaos Gods as it is, a new Chaos god wouldn't make any sense. 

The only reason it happened with the Eldar was because they were all recklessly following a hedonistic lifestyle, doing anything & everything at a whim, they didn't even have to bother fighting wars, working the land, anything - they were free to follow every whim they had. Over many thousand years all this reckless behaviour made an impact on the warp thus Slaanesh began to form.

Nothing like that is happening with Humanity, the 4 Major Gods already cover all aspects of the human psyche, there would be no justification for a 5th Chaos God.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what I said, Thats what the Imperial Truth is.
> 
> & for the record - He didn't even really tell the Primarchs (His 'Sons' and most trusted generals) about Chaos.
> 
> ...


Off the "is chaos good' topic

Trillions of people worshiping the emp. as a God would be enough, and there is a presedent for it - Malaal. The old school Chaos god who's only mission is to kill the other Chaos gods.

You could even speculate that some of it is already happening. That "living Saint" the sisters conjure up could be seen as a Greater Daemon.


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what I said, Thats what the Imperial Truth is.
> 
> & for the record - He didn't even really tell the Primarchs (His 'Sons' and most trusted generals) about Chaos.
> 
> ...


yeah, not sure that the four chaos gods cover all aspects of the human psyche. I mean even the Tarot covers 78 possible archetypes. In modern thought, influenced by chaos theory, the psyche has many many possible configurations, perhaps limitless. 
The fact remains IMHO that the emperor hid chaos from the primarchs. As seen in Horus rising and the conversation which the technocracy "Chaos?! never 'eard of it mate" etc etc. Why? Also, there must be a strong presence in the warp reflecting the crusade. 'The big four' are perhaps just the most dominant, but it doesn't mean that they are the only ones. Men's passions are represented in full within chaos. Question is: Is the emperor trying to unify the physical realm with the etheric realm? is this where he has been all this time?


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## ChaplinWhulfgar (May 9, 2008)

Perhaps the emperor is trying to become a chaos god himself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Off the "is chaos good' topic
> 
> Trillions of people worshiping the emp. as a God would be enough, and there is a presedent for it - Malaal. The old school Chaos god who's only mission is to kill the other Chaos gods.
> 
> You could even speculate that some of it is already happening. That "living Saint" the sisters conjure up could be seen as a Greater Daemon.


Oh yes, the Emperor becoming a 'god' is a strong possibility (note my sig!), although he wouldn't be a Chaos God (Not born of Chaos/The Warp). He would be an ascended Human.

Similarily the Saints couldnt be easily compared to Greater Daemons, because they wouldn't be Daemons, they would just be humans infused with the God-Emperor's power.



radicallight said:


> yeah, not sure that the four chaos gods cover all aspects of the human psyche. I mean even the Tarot covers 78 possible archetypes. In modern thought, influenced by chaos theory, the psyche has many many possible configurations, perhaps limitless.


Maybe I chose a poor choice of words then 

But essentially what I meant was that most if not all of humanity's prominent emotions are covered by the Chaos Gods (most by the 4 Major Chaos Gods) - Meaning that a fifth Major Chaos God wouldn't come about.



radicallight said:


> The fact remains IMHO that the emperor hid chaos from the primarchs. As seen in Horus rising and the conversation which the technocracy "Chaos?! never 'eard of it mate" etc etc. Why?


Indeed. Although Alpharius Omegon and the Alpha Legion in _'Legion'_ (Which was set before the events concerning the Auretian Technocracy) were actually aware of Chaos. Poorly informed, but knew about it none-the-less. Would the Emperor have told Alpharius? (I doubt it, considering he didn't tell Horus) I imagine he would have learnt about it from his various Spy-Networks? But this also begs the question how was Alpharius aware that the Emperor opposed Chaos and that his greatest ambition was to overthrow Chaos...? (Which is also noted in _'Legion'._)



radicallight said:


> Question is: Is the emperor trying to unify the physical realm with the etheric realm? is this where he has been all this time?


Is he trying to unite the Material Realm and the Warp? I highly doubt it. In fact this is what Lorgar is aiming for, as noted in _'Battle for the Abyss'_.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what I said, Thats what the Imperial Truth is.
> 
> & for the record - He didn't even really tell the Primarchs (His 'Sons' and most trusted generals) about Chaos.
> 
> ...


Maybe, but some of the Primarchs were aware of Chaos at least. Lion El'Jonson and Mortarion but had scrapes with the warp when they were young so they knew a bit about it. We know that Fulgrim did not know about it though, at least not until it was too late.

I cant think of a aspect for a new Chaos God but I believe that one will form once humanity falls far enough. Plus we do know that in the end Chaos will be victorious, as foretold by the cabal in 'Legion'.

But the Emperor himself, despite being human, is on par with the gods. One theory says that when the Emperor dies his soul will go to the warp to fight with the Chaos Gods. similar to the Eldar prophecy about Ynnead rising from the Eldar's death and destroying Slaanesh.

I think the Emperor's goal was a good one but he went about it in some bad ways. He should have told the Primarchs about Chaos to make sure they were aware of its dangers and he should have asked the Eldar to use the webway. If he told them he wanted to use it in place of the warp then they may have allowed it.

But biggest mistake of all. He should have listened to Magnus. The Emperor is responsible for the heresy by refusing to heed the warning Magnus gave.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I cant think of a aspect for a new Chaos God but I believe that one will form once humanity falls far enough.


Why though? As I said all of Humanity's emotions are already covered by the Chaos Gods, thus any potential Chaos God would have already formed in the warp.



Lord of the Night said:


> Plus we do know that in the end Chaos will be victorious, as foretold by the cabal in 'Legion'.


The Cabal have been wrong before, they can be wrong again.



Lord of the Night said:


> But the Emperor himself, despite being human, is on par with the gods.


he is? why is humanity losing and Chaos dominant then?



Lord of the Night said:


> He should have told the Primarchs about Chaos to make sure they were aware of its dangers


The Emperor seems to have been paranoid about the warp in the sense that he kept knowledge about it secret. He was probably afraid that it would tempt his followers if it was widely known and result in corruption. But telling the Primarchs everything might not have been the better option.



Lord of the Night said:


> he should have asked the Eldar to use the webway. If he told them he wanted to use it in place of the warp then they may have allowed it.


Never would the Eldar have allowed humanity to use the Webway, Never. Firstly the Eldar have no central authority with which to deal with. Secondly the Eldar are an incredably arrogant race and most regard humanity as upstarts and usurpers who are not worthy of ruling the galaxy. A million human lives is not worth a single Eldar life to them, they don't care about humanity in the slightest, and would happily see them extinct.

Hence why the Emperor invaded the Webway just prior to the Siege of Terra.



Lord of the Night said:


> But biggest mistake of all. He should have listened to Magnus. The Emperor is responsible for the heresy by refusing to heed the warning Magnus gave.


He can hardly be blamed for not listening to Magnus, I wouldn't have. The Emperor had banned the use of sorcery and strictly informed Magnus that he would visit retribution on him were he to disobey.

By sending his Sorcerous Message, Magnus endangered the safety of Terra (and thus the entire Imperium) by allowing Daemons to manifest through the Imperial Webway and even reach as far as the Imperial Dungeons. Forcing the Emperor to take to the Golden Throne in order to keep the Webway Gate sealed, thus preventing him from taking part in the initial stages of the Siege of Terra.

The Emperor was enraged, Magnus had broken his laws and threatened not only Terra and the Imperium but the Emperor's crucial plans for Humanity. The Emperor presumed (probably rightly) that Magnus was the one that had been corrupted (not Horus) via Sorcery and treating with the Warp.

Anyway even If he had heeded the warning of Magnus, The Heresy still would have happened. So he is not responsible for the heresy in any way for not heeding the warning of Magnus.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why though? As I said all of Humanity's emotions are already covered by the Chaos Gods, thus any potential Chaos God would have already formed in the warp.
> 
> The Cabal have been wrong before, they can be wrong again.
> 
> ...


But not to a total extent, perhaps some certain aspects aren't powerful enough to take full sentience as a Dark God yet.

With the way the 40k universe is going right now, I highly doubt the Cabal was wrong. Plus the Eldar myth of the Rhana Dandra seems to match up with their vision.

Because the Emperor is an impotent corpse trapped on a golden chair for all eternity. Once he is freed he will be at his full power once more.

I think if they had been aware of it some corruption could have been avoided. Fulgrim would have known the Laeran temple was corrupted and avoided it. Magnus might have steered his legion in a different path had he known about the power of Tzeentch while he was still loyal.

If you wish to deal with the Eldar as a whole the closest you can get is Eldrad Ulthran. He is the only Eldar that all other Eldar respect and admire and would listen to. Eldrad tried to warn Fulgrim of the heresy, had Fulgrim not already been corrupted the heresy may have been avoided, so I think he may have been open to the suggestion of humanity using the webway, if only to prevent them using the warp.

True but the Emperor should have heard Magnus out, instead he refused to even hear him and sent Leman Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy him and kill all the Thousand Sons and the innocents on Prospero.

Plus a Daemonic incursion on the Golden palace is highly preferable to the galactic massacre known as the Horus Heresy. It would have been a small price to pay to prevent all that deaths and corruption.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The trouble with your Magnus theory Lord of the Night is that the Emperor DID reveal all he knew about Chaos to Magnus, of all the Primarchs it was only Magnus the Red that the Emperor told everything too. Due mainly to the fact that the Thousand Sons Primarch was already beginning to dabble with Sorcery and the Emperor wanted to ensure he wasn't corrupted, but MAgnus outright dismissed the Emperor's warnings and continued anyway.

Considering the extent of the incursion, and the inability to seal the warp rift preventing Daemons from continually invading, I'd actually say the Secret War (as HH: Collected Visions calls it) was at least as dangerous as the rest of the Horus Heresy.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Hmm didn't know that. Still though if he knew the extent of Magnus's ability of foresight and his power he should have thought to hear him out, find out what was so important that Magnus would cause so much damage.

I suppose. I still think the Heresy was more dangerous, given enough time the Emperor would have sealed the warp rift but the damage done by the Heresy will lead to the galaxies end.. provided it hasn't been devoured by the Tyranids by then.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

True but the Emperor should have heard Magnus out, instead he refused to even hear him and sent Leman Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy him and kill all the Thousand Sons and the innocents on Prospero.[/QUOTE]

Actually he only sent them to capture Magnus and bring him to the Emp, Horus however ordered Russ to destroy Prospero.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I used the term Warp Rift but it wasn't quite that, it was a massive break in the Imperial Webway (the length of tunnel that connected the Imperial Dungeons to the Eldar Webway), allowing Daemons to simply flood straight in.

The Emperor couldn't fix the Webway on his own, he didn't build it on his own he had thousands of workers construct it and when the webway was breached the Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence attempted to hold the line in order for the workers to repair the damage but the Daemons were a never ending horde and the Imperial Forces were finite. A mighty Blood Thirster managed to force its way to the portal of the Imperial Palace before it was repulsed, that's how close it was to the forces of Chaos being let loose on Terra.

If the Emperor had managed to get the Imperial Webway finished then humanity would have been freed from the need to enter the Chaos Gods realm and their reliance on psykers- when Magnus breached it with his sorcerous conjurings not only did he disobey the Emperor (having been told explicitly not to use sorcery twice!), he imperiled the heart of the Imperium, and shattered the Emperor's plans of freeing humanity from the corruption of Chaos.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> when Magnus breached it with his sorcerous conjurings not only did he disobey the Emperor (having been told explicitly not to use sorcery twice!), *he imperiled the heart of the Imperium, and shattered the Emperor's plans of freeing humanity from the corruption of Chaos*.


which may have been Tzeentch's plan all along... Magnus was nothing more than a puppet.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Captain Stillios said:


> True but the Emperor should have heard Magnus out, instead he refused to even hear him and sent Leman Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy him and kill all the Thousand Sons and the innocents on Prospero.


Actually he only sent them to capture Magnus and bring him to the Emp, Horus however ordered Russ to destroy Prospero.[/QUOTE]There are conflicting sources on this, some say the Emperor ordered Magnus's death while others say Horus tricked Russ into it. Until Prospero Burns is released we wont know the absolute truth.

True but while Magnus did a lot of damage if the Emperor had just heard him out then the heresy could have been averted and the Golden Age of man could have continued. Things would be very different if that had happened. The galaxy may have actually been prepared to face the Necrons and Tyranids for one thing.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

What you have quoted is a quote that I accidently deleted the first quote box then what I said was pretty much what you said.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> But not to a total extent, perhaps some certain aspects aren't powerful enough to take full sentience as a Dark God yet.


Enlighten me as to what Aspect of Humanity that could be? 



Lord of the Night said:


> With the way the 40k universe is going right now, I highly doubt the Cabal was wrong. Plus the Eldar myth of the Rhana Dandra seems to match up with their vision.


Oh no, I don't deny that Chaos is highly likely to ultimately 'win'. But if you take the Cabal's 'prophecy' as infallible then the Emperor cannot rise again once 'properly dead'.

No Prophecy is infallible, not the Eldars, not the Cabals, Heck not even Tzeentch can infallibly state what the future will be.



Lord of the Night said:


> Because the Emperor is an impotent corpse trapped on a golden chair for all eternity. Once he is freed he will be at his full power once more.


Will he? Why will he be at full power again once he dies? Who is to say he won't simply die and be consumed by Chaos?



Lord of the Night said:


> I think if they had been aware of it some corruption could have been avoided. Fulgrim would have known the Laeran temple was corrupted and avoided it. Magnus might have steered his legion in a different path had he known about the power of Tzeentch while he was still loyal.


Thats possible. Although the Emperor in his wisdom deemed it better not to tell them, whether this was mere paranoia or actually for the better is not known.



Lord of the Night said:


> If you wish to deal with the Eldar as a whole the closest you can get is Eldrad Ulthran. He is the only Eldar that all other Eldar respect and admire and would listen to. Eldrad tried to warn Fulgrim of the heresy, had Fulgrim not already been corrupted the heresy may have been avoided, so I think he may have been open to the suggestion of humanity using the webway, if only to prevent them using the warp.


Firstly not all Eldar would have taken Eldrad's authority (Im thinking of Saim-hann and Biel-tan here). But that aside, if the Eldar had allowed humanity access to the Webway it would have resulted in the extinction of the Eldar Race, they would have had no where to hide. It would also jeopardise the safety of the Black Library. Also to the Eldar there was nothing wrong with keeping humanity using Warp Travel, it didn't effect them in the slightest.




Lord of the Night said:


> True but the Emperor should have heard Magnus out, instead he refused to even hear him and sent Leman Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy him and kill all the Thousand Sons and the innocents on Prospero.


He did hear Magnus out, via the Sorcerous warning he knew and saw everything that Magnus knew and saw. But Magnus had been corrupted, would you believe a pawn of Chaos, and take his word over the loyalty of your most favoured son? I wouldn't.

He sent Leman Russ to capture Magnus (as Magnus was intended to sit on the Golden Throne) and to burn Prospero and all the heresys and Sorcerous knowledge stored there to prevent anyone else from being corrupted.

Also they were far from Innocent. Most of the Legion is likely to have been irrevertably corrupted by this point, they deserved death - and Prospero deserved Burning.




Lord of the Night said:


> Plus a Daemonic incursion on the Golden palace is highly preferable to the galactic massacre known as the Horus Heresy. It would have been a small price to pay to prevent all that deaths and corruption.


I did say this in my last post - but even if the Emperor heeded Magnus' warning, the Heresy still would have occured, if anything Magnus just made it worse. Magnus was corrupted by Tzeentch, heck it might have even been Tzeentch that made Magnus send the warning to Terra in order to break the wards around the Imperial Palace to allow Daemons to Invade through the Imperial Webway.



Baron Spikey said:


> The trouble with your Magnus theory Lord of the Night is that the Emperor DID reveal all he knew about Chaos to Magnus, of all the Primarchs it was only Magnus the Red that the Emperor told everything too. Due mainly to the fact that the Thousand Sons Primarch was already beginning to dabble with Sorcery and the Emperor wanted to ensure he wasn't corrupted, but MAgnus outright dismissed the Emperor's warnings and continued anyway.
> 
> Considering the extent of the incursion, and the inability to seal the warp rift preventing Daemons from continually invading, I'd actually say the Secret War (as HH: Collected Visions calls it) was at least as dangerous as the rest of the Horus Heresy.


Exactly 

Magnus deserved everything he got. He disregarded the Emperor's warnings and Jeopardised the entire Imperium.



Baron Spikey said:


> If the Emperor had managed to get the Imperial Webway finished then humanity would have been freed from the need to enter the Chaos Gods realm and their reliance on psykers- when Magnus breached it with his sorcerous conjurings not only did he disobey the Emperor (having been told explicitly not to use sorcery twice!), he imperiled the heart of the Imperium, and shattered the Emperor's plans of freeing humanity from the corruption of Chaos.


That pretty much sums it up. Magnus believed he could master the Warp, but he was in turn being mastered. He was irrevertibly corrupted and was likely little more than a pawn of Chaos by the time the Heresy occured.

If Magnus had heeded the warnings of the Emperor (which the Emperor made clear upon discovering Magnus) then the Galaxy would likely be a much different place in M41.



Lord of the Night said:


> There are conflicting sources on this, some say the Emperor ordered Magnus's death while others say Horus tricked Russ into it. Until Prospero Burns is released we wont know the absolute truth.


I spoke to Graham Mcneil about that, and he told me to clearly read the passage in _'False Gods'_ again, implying that Russ wasn't truley tricked and given different orders by Horus.

However even when Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons is released I imagine we'll not be much closer to the real answer given that both books will probably give conflicting accounts.



Lord of the Night said:


> True but while Magnus did a lot of damage if the Emperor had just heard him out then the heresy could have been averted and the Golden Age of man could have continued.


No, the Heresy couldn't have been prevented! By the time Magnus sent his warning, Horus was already corrupted and the Heresy was planned and being set in motion. If the Emperor had dropped all logic and reason and actually listened to Magnus (which would have been a mistake) the Heresy still would have occured. But the Emperor was unable to act anyway, given that he was stuck on the Golden Throne and fighting 'The Secret War' thanks to Magnus' idiocy.



Lord of the Night said:


> Things would be very different if that had happened. The galaxy may have actually been prepared to face the Necrons and Tyranids for one thing.


The only way that things would have been different is if Magnus would have heeded the warnings of the Emperor upon being discovered (or even at the Council of Nikaea) - the blame lies at Magnus' feet, not the Emperor's.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only way that things would have been different is if Magnus would have heeded the warnings of the Emperor upon being discovered (or even at the Council of Nikaea) *- the blame lies at Magnus' feet, not the Emperor's*.


Are you sure? food for thought... go back further, had the emperor chosen the right son to make warmaster the entire saga of events following his promotion at Ullanor may have been prevented. from my interpretation of the first 3 HH books, it would appear that Horus had been groomed for corruption when he was still in a tube in the imperial basement. Maybe Horus was right when confessing to that remembrancer on his death bed at Davin, maybe the Emperor should have chosen Sanguinius as warmaster instead... am i right? maybe, maybe not. but it is thought provoking.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Sanguinius was the best choice for Warmaster, Dorn or Guilliman would have been the next best choices. The Chaos Gods clearly had plans for Horus from the start, or at least Tzeentch did.

Magnus may have jeopardized the Imperium but the Emperor should have listened to him. He knew Magnus just as well as Horus and should have known that Magnus wouldn't have done that if there wasn't a good reason.

Magnus was not corrupted at the time. The fact that Erebus had to block him out of Horus's vision proves that Magnus was loyal then.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> Are you sure? food for thought... go back further, had the emperor chosen the right son to make warmaster the entire saga of events following his promotion at Ullanor may have been prevented. from my interpretation of the first 3 HH books, it would appear that Horus had been groomed for corruption when he was still in a tube in the imperial basement. Maybe Horus was right when confessing to that remembrancer on his death bed at Davin, maybe the Emperor should have chosen Sanguinius as warmaster instead... am i right? maybe, maybe not. but it is thought provoking.


Well Horus being Warmaster is niether here nor there when talking about Magnus' Heresy.

But I see no reason why the Emperor would have suspected Horus as anything but loyal. It is noted that the Emperor chose Horus as Warmaster because he alone shared the Emperor's Great Ambition, Its all well and good suggesting Sanguinius as plausably making a better Warmaster - But thats not clear cut, its not known how well Sanguinius would have dealt under the pressure of the post of Warmaster.

To me, Horus was the logical choice for Warmaster.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Fair enough.

To sum up my belief. Magnus caused damage to the Imperium, no question. But if the Emperor had only listened to him, rather then sending Russ to kill him, he may have been able to get the element of surprise and deal with the heresy swiftly. Besides Terra knew about the Sons of Horus's unorthodox actions, blasting civilians who tried to get to Horus, so I doubt the Emperor didn't realize something wasn't wrong with Horus, or at least his legion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Sanguinius was the best choice for Warmaster, Dorn or Guilliman would have been the next best choices. The Chaos Gods clearly had plans for Horus from the start, or at least Tzeentch did.


Sorry but thats Rubbish  - How did the Chaos Gods clearly have plans for Horus at the start? and How was the Emperor suppossed to know this?

Also how do you know who would have made a better Warmaster, if anyone? Everything in that regard is just wild speculation.



Lord of the Night said:


> Magnus may have jeopardized the Imperium but the Emperor should have listened to him.


Its very easy to say that in Retrospect. But look at the facts, Magnus disobeyed the Emperor, practised Sorcery, Threatened the entire Imperium, and the Emperor's carefully laid out plans for Humanity. The Emperor shouldn't have listened to Magnus at all, it would have defied all logic and reason.



Lord of the Night said:


> and should have known that Magnus wouldn't have done that if there wasn't a good reason.


How about because he was corrupted?



Lord of the Night said:


> Magnus was not corrupted at the time. The fact that Erebus had to block him out of Horus's vision proves that Magnus was loyal then.


He was 'loyal' right up until Russ almost killed him. But that doesn't stop him being corrupted. Chaos is Subtle remember. 

The Collected Visions implies that Magnus was actually corrupted before even the Emperor discovered him.



Lord of the Night said:


> But if the Emperor had only listened to him, rather then sending Russ to kill him, he may have been able to get the element of surprise and deal with the heresy swiftly.


I've said this several times already, but even _if_ the Emperor had listened to and irrationally believed Magnus he still wouldn't have been able to deal with the Heresy swiftly. Mainly because as a consequence of Magnus' Sorcerous warning the Emperor was stuck on the Golden Throne using the majority of his power in order to keep the Infinite Hordes of Daemons at bay. 

*Aside from that he had absolutley no reason to believe Magnus, but every reason not to believe him.*


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sorry but thats Rubbish  - How did the Chaos Gods clearly have plans for Horus at the start? and How was the Emperor suppossed to know this?
> 
> Also how do you know who would have made a better Warmaster, if anyone? Everything in that regard is just wild speculation.
> 
> ...


The Emperor should have been able to see it. Its clear that the Chaos Gods planned for Horus to betray from the start, Tzeentch really. The others lack the foresight.

Horus himself admitted that Sanguinius would have been the better choice.

The Emperor and Magnus were both psykers, the Emperor should have known through his bond with Magnus that he spoke the truth.

There is no proof of that.

True but corruption has signs, Magnus showed none.

By that logic you can say any psyker is corrupted. The Emperor would have sensed it the moment he met Magnus in the warp.

Thats true but he could have sent the Primarchs to deal with it. They would have been able to catch the Sons of Horus and crush them, plus Magnus knew about the Word Bearers so they could have exposed them as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor should have been able to see it. Its clear that the Chaos Gods planned for Horus to betray from the start, Tzeentch really. The others lack the foresight.


Please tell me how it is clear that the Chaos Gods planned for Horus to betray the Emperor from the start?



Lord of the Night said:


> Horus himself admitted that Sanguinius would have been the better choice.


Because Horus said so in a weakened state, does this make it fact? Since when was Horus infallible? 

There is no way to say that Sanguinius would have been a better Warmaster unless he was actually made Warmaster. As I said everything else is just wild speculation.



Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor and Magnus were both psykers, the Emperor should have known through his bond with Magnus that he spoke the truth.


The Emperor wasn't omnipotent. 



Lord of the Night said:


> There is no proof of that.


Prospero was a 'secret' planet of a self-exiled Sorcerous Coven. Magnus was practising Sorcery before he was discovered by the Emperor. Sorcery always inevitably Corrupts, hence why the Emperor warned him about it.



Lord of the Night said:


> True but corruption has signs, Magnus showed none.


Corruption doesn't always show signs in its 'initial stages'. It is heavily implied that Tzeentch had his claws in Magnus from the very beginning, the Emperor seemed oblivious. Corruption isn't obvious, people who are corrupted don't walk around with bright yellow strokes of paint on their forehead so they can be identified, Chaos is Subtle. Most of the time the corrupted individual doesn't even realise themselves they are being corrupted - It is that subtle.



Lord of the Night said:


> By that logic you can say any psyker is corrupted. The Emperor would have sensed it the moment he met Magnus in the warp.


Again, the Emperor wasn't Omnipotent.



Lord of the Night said:


> Thats true but he could have sent the Primarchs to deal with it. They would have been able to catch the Sons of Horus and crush them, plus Magnus knew about the Word Bearers so they could have exposed them as well.


As I said, the Emperor had no reason what-so-ever to believe Magnus, but every reason not to believe him.

Tell me honestly (as accuratley as you can), If you were in the Emperor's position. Your plans had been millenia in the making, you truley realised the true threat of Chaos and how it can corrupt. Your fragile plans had taken off well but at a crucial stage one of your 'sons' betrays your laws and threatens everything you have ever done and strove for, even after you warned and threatened him not to. You know that Sorcery inevitably corrupts, and your rebellious 'son' has used Sorcery which has resulted in your carefully laid out plans going awry. Would you just drop everything, defy reason and believe your traitorous 'son' even though the method of which he was communicating with you was prone to Chaos corruption and highly volatile and dangerous?

Who would you truley think was corrupted and the traitor? Magnus, who had defied your laws, not heeded your vital warnings, betrayed your trust and who had prevented you from achieveing the next phase of your crucial plan to save humanity.

Or Horus? Your favourite, the Brightest Star. Leader of your armies and Warmaster of your Imperium. Your First Son. Your Most loyal follower and closest Friend.

Think about it in those terms. Who would you think is the traitor?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

It could have been any of the Primarchs but they chose Horus. I doubt they just picked him at random out of the Primarchs. They must have sensed the potential in him and influenced events to lead to Horus being corrupted. Erebus and Eugene Temba were their instruments to that regard.

Horus admitted that Sanguinius was more skilled then him. Even in a weakened state he was humble enough to admit that Sanguinius would have been the better choice. That and, with hindsight, Sanguinius was not a traitor.

He was close to it. Plus he had a bond with Magnus, more so then Horus, since they were both the most powerful active psykers at the time. He and Magnus knew each other well.

Doesn't say they were Sorcerous. It only says they were psykers and mutated, ergo not welcome anywhere else.

True but those around Magnus would have noticed a subtle change in his demeanour. And not the astartes, I mean those around him who did not practice sorcery and were at no risk of corruption.

I would punish Magnus fairly, not commit slaughter on his legion. I would hear Magnus out and I would at least investigate his claims, as Magnus had the greatest foresight of all the Primarchs and his advice on the future is something to listen to. I would have had him brought to Terra to account for his crimes though.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> I used the term Warp Rift but it wasn't quite that, it was a massive break in the Imperial Webway (the length of tunnel that connected the Imperial Dungeons to the Eldar Webway), allowing Daemons to simply flood straight in.
> 
> The Emperor couldn't fix the Webway on his own, he didn't build it on his own he had thousands of workers construct it and when the webway was breached the Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence attempted to hold the line in order for the workers to repair the damage but the Daemons were a never ending horde and the Imperial Forces were finite. A mighty Blood Thirster managed to force its way to the portal of the Imperial Palace before it was repulsed, that's how close it was to the forces of Chaos being let loose on Terra.
> 
> If the Emperor had managed to get the Imperial Webway finished then humanity would have been freed from the need to enter the Chaos Gods realm and their reliance on psykers- when Magnus breached it with his sorcerous conjurings not only did he disobey the Emperor (having been told explicitly not to use sorcery twice!), he imperiled the heart of the Imperium, and shattered the Emperor's plans of freeing humanity from the corruption of Chaos.


Ok, I mostly only read the HH books... what is the source for this? I have never heard that Daemons were flooding into terra after Magnus destroyed the webway (I actualy never read that he had destroyed it, just picked that up some where).

In "Flight of the Eisenstien" it would make more sense than that the emp. was too busy to hear about the heresy if Daemons were pouring into terra from a warp breach. Also thinking that Magnus was a traitor makes sense too. His warning could be taken as an outright assault since it resulted in a daemonic incursion.

Is this speculation or is there a book that backs this up?


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Tell me honestly (as accuratley as you can), If you were in the Emperor's position. Your plans had been millenia in the making, you truley realised the true threat of Chaos and how it can corrupt. Your fragile plans had taken off well but at a crucial stage one of your 'sons' betrays your laws and threatens everything you have ever done and strove for, even after you warned and threatened him not to. You know that Sorcery inevitably corrupts, and your rebellious 'son' has used Sorcery which has resulted in your carefully laid out plans going awry. Would you just drop everything, defy reason and believe your traitorous 'son' even though the method of which he was communicating with you was prone to Chaos corruption and highly volatile and dangerous?
> 
> Who would you truley think was corrupted and the traitor? Magnus, who had defied your laws, not heeded your vital warnings, betrayed your trust and who had prevented you from achieveing the next phase of your crucial plan to save humanity.
> 
> ...


Nothing written yet (at least not that we can read) but Abnett in the youtube video strongly suggests that the only reason the space wolves were created were so that they could eventualy destroy the 1000 sons. He also says that it was not clearly "loyalist vs. traitor, but 2 loyal legions".

Nothing is for sure at this point, but "A 1000 sons" and "prospero burns" stongly look to back up that Magnus was loyal until the wolves attacked.

But you are right about Chaos. Have you read "Angels of Darkness"? The traitor Dark angel believed to the very end that he was loyal to the emp. And depending on what you choose to believe, he might have been.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Nothing written yet (at least not that we can read) but Abnett in the youtube video strongly suggests that the only reason the space wolves were created were so that they could eventualy destroy the 1000 sons. He also says that it was not clearly "loyalist vs. traitor, but 2 loyal legions".
> 
> Nothing is for sure at this point, but "A 1000 sons" and "prospero burns" stongly look to back up that Magnus was loyal until the wolves attacked.
> 
> But you are right about Chaos. Have you read "Angels of Darkness"? The traitor Dark angel believed to the very end that he was loyal to the emp. And depending on what you choose to believe, he might have been.


I haven't read that book but ive read the Fallen Marine's account of the Caliban battle. I believe him.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Because Horus said so in a weakened state, does this make it fact? Since when was Horus infallible?
> 
> There is no way to say that Sanguinius would have been a better Warmaster unless he was actually made Warmaster. As I said everything else is just wild speculation.


considering 40k is a fictitious universe id say being 'speculative' is probably over 50% of the fluff we talk on here. so theres nothing wrong with voicing your theories on the heresy on a public forum considering they are not outlandish and are somewhat thought out. i am making my 'speculations' on evidence picked up from conversations found throughout the HH books, so im not just pulling this stuff out of my bottom. 

When Horus was laid low on Davin and he was confessing to remembrancer it was the first time since he had become warmaster he was able to let his guard down and be completely honest, his 'weakend state' means nothing to the fact that on ones death bed people suddenly become very honest and confess their sins (maybe it was part of his human side shining through). I think horus said it best:

_“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...”_

Why was Horus chosen? yes he had a way with words and was able to bring worlds under compliance without the need for war... sometimes. but i think being the emperors 'fav' may have had more to do with it (1st found son and all) Something that may of the primarchs agree on me with  Sanguinius with his unbreakable faith, determination and ability to forsee the fututre would have been a more 'calculated' choice as warmaster.

Therfore i stand by my 'speculation' and think that had Sanguinius been warmaster the events of the heresy may have been averted. Magnus would have never sent his psychic message and shattered the wards holding up the imperial webway... thus allowing the Emperor to complete the webway and get rid of the humans need for warp travel... yadda yadda yadda.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How did the Chaos Gods clearly have plans for Horus at the start?


one of the first 3 HH books speaks of baby Horus being whisperd to in his tube as the warp flung the primarchs all over the galaxy. And considering the choas powers never do anything without a plan do you think it was 'random' that Horus was put so close to Terra that he would be found first (and by a fair while). It would appear that Chaos were sowing the seeds of doubt into baby Horus' mind from the very beginning, grooming him for the day he would stat the heresy.

of course... this is all 'speculation'.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lovely theory reagrding Horus, Brother Subtle- but Chaos didn't choose Horus, Lorgar did.

Lorgar knew he wasn't popular, well liked or had the charasmatic ability to sway others to his new 'faith' so he set about the events in order to corrupt Horus- who's to say that if Sanguinius had been Warmaster Lorgar wouldn't still have brought about the corruption of Horus and through him, and his deep relationships with the other Primarchs still institgated the Horus Heresy?

@Zooey72- it's not speculation, it's in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. The book that most of the HH novels draw their info from.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

ahhh its good to have some knowledgeable people to argue the finer points of the heresy with!

but... Baron Spikey, Lorgar had no influence over who the Emperor made Warmaster. so really... if he wanted to corrupt someone of influence to chaos he would have had to just wait until the big E chose someone at Ullanor. Erebus never joined Horus until after he was selected warmaster, therefore Lorgars attempts to corrupt him didnt start till after he was Warmaster. Yes, you are right in that chaos used Lorgar to help sway Horus, but from evidence such as whispering seeds of doubt to Horus while wisked away in the warp from under the imperial palace, to placing him closest to the Emperor (to be found first) it can be 'assumed' that choas in fact planned (or hoped) Horus to become Warmaster...

im pretty sure Sanguinius didnt like Lorgar. so he would have been pushing shit up hill trying to befriend him there  haha.

But... i could always be wrong. i just figure Chaos (Tzeentch in particular) is too calculated to wait until Horus was selected Warmaster before starting to corrupt him. theres evidence to suggest they planned the whole heresy long before the Primarchs had finsihed pooping in their nappies.

but... im just 'speculating'... or trying to plant the seeds of doubt in your own minds...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Ok, I mostly only read the HH books... what is the source for this? I have never heard that Daemons were flooding into terra after Magnus destroyed the webway (I actualy never read that he had destroyed it, just picked that up some where).


Its from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions  EDIT: oops didn't realise the Baron beat me to it, my bad!



Zooey72 said:


> In "Flight of the Eisenstien" it would make more sense than that the emp. was too busy to hear about the heresy if Daemons were pouring into terra from a warp breach. Also thinking that Magnus was a traitor makes sense too. His warning could be taken as an outright assault since it resulted in a daemonic incursion.


Exactly.



Zooey72 said:


> Nothing written yet (at least not that we can read) but Abnett in the youtube video strongly suggests that the only reason the space wolves were created were so that they could eventualy destroy the 1000 sons. He also says that it was not clearly "loyalist vs. traitor, but 2 loyal legions".


Yes I never meant that Magnus or the Thousand Sons were traitors in the conventional sense by that point. They considered themselves still loyal to the Emperor. 



Zooey72 said:


> But you are right about Chaos. Have you read "Angels of Darkness"? The traitor Dark angel believed to the very end that he was loyal to the emp. And depending on what you choose to believe, he might have been.


Thats a good example, thanks for that. That is my point 'Lord of the Night' - Chaos Corruption cannot be easily rooted out, it is subtle, and half of the time the corrupted individual doesn't even know or think he is corrupted. Its not like the Emperor can come along and automatically use his spider-sense to flush out any partly corrupted people! How can one discover corruption if the person doesnt even know or believe he is being corrupted? Its a very hard job.



Lord of the Night said:


> I haven't read that book but ive read the Fallen Marine's account of the Caliban battle. I believe him.


Then you yourself might be being subtely corrupted my friend :grin: - Or at the very least you'd be burnt for believeing someone who claims the Lion is a traitor!



Brother Subtle said:


> considering 40k is a fictitious universe id say being 'speculative' is probably over 50% of the fluff we talk on here. so theres nothing wrong with voicing your theories on the heresy on a public forum considering they are not outlandish and are somewhat thought out. i am making my 'speculations' on evidence picked up from conversations found throughout the HH books, so im not just pulling this stuff out of my bottom.
> 
> When Horus was laid low on Davin and he was confessing to remembrancer it was the first time since he had become warmaster he was able to let his guard down and be completely honest, his 'weakend state' means nothing to the fact that on ones death bed people suddenly become very honest and confess their sins (maybe it was part of his human side shining through). I think horus said it best:
> 
> _“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...”_


Well yes its perfectly plausable that Sanguinius would have made a better Warmaster. But Presenting it as a fact (As Lord of the Night did) is why I refuted it. Horus thinking he had failed, and let the Emperor down as Warmaster, was pouring out his inner thoughts to the Remembrancer and claimed Sanguinius should have been Warmaster. But if Sanguinius was made Warmaster he may have royally messed it up, maybe he didn't possess the right qualities or ambition, maybe he didn't have the right relations with all his brother Primarchs, or the right reputation among the Imperium (For example even before Horus was made Warmaster he was known as the 'First Primarch' - whether this just refers to him being found first or not is unclear, but it certainly suggests that he was favoured) or simply maybe its because he wasn't discovered first.

But as I said there is no way to properly determine whether Sanguinius would have made a better Warmaster, for the simple fact that he wasn't made Warmaster!



Brother Subtle said:


> Why was Horus chosen? yes he had a way with words and was able to bring worlds under compliance without the need for war... sometimes. but i think being the emperors 'fav' may have had more to do with it (1st found son and all) Something that may of the primarchs agree on me with  Sanguinius with his unbreakable faith, determination and ability to forsee the fututre would have been a more 'calculated' choice as warmaster.


Well according the Lion, Horus was chosen as Warmaster simply because he was the first discovered yes. But it is noted in the Horus Heresy books (I think its Horus Rising) that he was chosen because he alone shared the Emperor's Great Ambition, and thus could pull off the role of Warmaster. 



Brother Subtle said:


> Therfore i stand by my 'speculation' and think that had Sanguinius been warmaster the events of the heresy may have been averted. Magnus would have never sent his psychic message and shattered the wards holding up the imperial webway... thus allowing the Emperor to complete the webway and get rid of the humans need for warp travel... yadda yadda yadda.


Sanguinius could have been corrupted just as easily as Horus was. We don't know how Sanguinius would have acted under the pressure of being Warmaster. We don't know how his brother Primarchs would have reacted, how Horus would have reacted to his appointment. With Horus we have the advantage of Retrospect. We can look back and say "Yea, actually he probably wasn't the best choice given what happened!" - We do not have such an advantage with Sanguinius. 

If we didn't have knowledge that Horus would betray the Emperor, I would say that Horus was the logical choice for Warmaster, and the Emperor obviously shared my view! He was closest to the Emperor, the Emperor's favourite, considered most loyal, he shared the Emperor's Ambition for Humanity and the galaxy. He was a Warrior and Diplomat in equal measure, and both without peer. To me he would have been the logical choice.



Brother Subtle said:


> one of the first 3 HH books speaks of baby Horus being whisperd to in his tube as the warp flung the primarchs all over the galaxy. And considering the choas powers never do anything without a plan do you think it was 'random' that Horus was put so close to Terra that he would be found first (and by a fair while). It would appear that Chaos were sowing the seeds of doubt into baby Horus' mind from the very beginning, grooming him for the day he would stat the heresy.


Im not sure whether I would agree with that. Firstly the Chaos-Induced vision Horus recieved in False Gods (I think it was) was just that, Chaos-Induced. He saw exactly what Chaos wanted him to see. It was just another ploy to get him to hate the Emperor. Personally I see no evidence that Horus was being groomed by Chaos from an early age, the evidence only starts pouring in when he gets made Warmaster following Ullanor.



Brother Subtle said:


> ahhh its good to have some knowledgeable people to argue the finer points of the heresy with!
> 
> but... Baron Spikey, Lorgar had no influence over who the Emperor made Warmaster. so really... if he wanted to corrupt someone of influence to chaos he would have had to just wait until the big E chose someone at Ullanor. Erebus never joined Horus until after he was selected warmaster, therefore Lorgars attempts to corrupt him didnt start till after he was Warmaster. Yes, you are right in that chaos used Lorgar to help sway Horus, but from evidence such as whispering seeds of doubt to Horus while wisked away in the warp from under the imperial palace, to placing him closest to the Emperor (to be found first) it can be 'assumed' that choas in fact planned (or hoped) Horus to become Warmaster...
> 
> ...


I think what the Baron means is that even if Sanguinius was made Warmaster, The 'Horus' Heresy still could have occured. The only difference would have been that Horus wasn't Warmaster. The thing is though that Horus had reputation as the Emperor's Favourite and closest to him, he had the best relations with all his brother Primarchs (I can't think of a single Primarch he didn't get on with). If Sanguinius was made Warmaster, he would have relied on Horus for his authority, either way you look at it.

And as he said technically it was Lorgar that chose Horus not Chaos. Lorgar knew (As the Baron said) that he himself couldn't instigate a rebellion, he simply didn't have the influence. But he knew Horus did, and after Horus was made Warmaster he had even more influence! Lorgar capitalised on this and began the corruption of Horus via Erebus. Horus' self-doubts only worked to aid Lorgar is his corruption of the Warmaster.

Chaos didn't care how it happened, but it wanted the Emperor dead or incapacitated. They gained a powerful ally for such an objective in Lorgar, and then in Horus. Being the Emperor's favourite and having so much Influence probably would have made Horus the prime target for corruption whatever happened, but that doesn't mean it was initially planned from the beginning.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Phew! I just love arguing out 40k fluff! Haha you guys make some good points there but I stand by my presumptions. Hang on, wasn't this thread about Loken coming back? *wink wink.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that news is known enough by now.

I dont believe Sanguinius would have fallen for Erebus's lies. He could forsee the future remember, he could have seen what Erebus was trying to do to him and killed him.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Don't worry about straying from the point. If we get too far off topic, then i'll interject, but i'm really enjoying reading everyones opinions on teh subject at hand. 

just remember if someone starts tangenting off about the sorry state of the fish that they ate last night, and how it made them pray to the porcelain gods until some fat lady sang, then maybe i'll close the thread, but until that happens, feel free to debate! lol

CP


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

after reading some of Horus heresy: collected visions. i can see why Horus was chosen over all the other primarchs. as COTE said earlier, he was the obvious choice. but... as i said before... maybe have not been the best choice in hindsight.

imagine if Lorgar was chosen as warmaster, how easy would have that made things?
chaos would have been in the warp just going 'oh sweet!'... although im not too sure how he would have gone convincing his fellow primarchs as most of the considered him an over zealous wanker... i think i maybe have alot more to say on our friendly discussion as i read through this massive book (HH:CV), so much fluff in there its amazing, and ive only just had a flick through... anywho, im off to do some more reading, the GK omnibus im halfway through will have to wait!


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I heard my local store manager talking about a Thousand Sons, saying great the book was. He mentioned small bits like how Ahriman (sp?) summons Daemons *Cough* Bloodletters *Cough* accidentally, believing they are just 'Warp entities' ( hence this whole theory of the Imperium knowing very little of the forces of Chaos at this time...) also he said something about how when the Space Wolves come that instead of bricking themselves the Thousands Sons are just fearless in the faces of their enemy....

EDIT: I hope this isn`t classed as a spoiler , but coupled with the Abnett/Mc Neil interview it only wettens my appetite more...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Commissar Ploss said:


> Don't worry about straying from the point. If we get too far off topic, then i'll interject, but i'm really enjoying reading everyones opinions on teh subject at hand.
> 
> just remember if someone starts tangenting off about the sorry state of the fish that they ate last night, and how it made them pray to the porcelain gods until some fat lady sang, then maybe i'll close the thread, but until that happens, feel free to debate! lol
> 
> CP


Huzzah!



Lord of the Night said:


> I dont believe Sanguinius would have fallen for Erebus's lies. He could forsee the future remember, he could have seen what Erebus was trying to do to him and killed him.


Farseeing is by no means infallible. The Emperor, Eldrad or even Tzeentch himself are not certain about what will occur in the future.

Sanguinius couldn't see everything that would occur in the future. He had powers of foresight - likely through visions. This in no way means he would be able to see through Erebus.

Anyway what Erebus was saying wasn't necessarily lies, if anything he just twisted the truth.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

This is a reply to the first pages before the talk about Order and Chaos, no good, Big E being Chaos and stuff like that. ^^

I think it was a big closesure on the fact that Loken died, I can agree on that. But Im not sad to see his return. Im sensing his part isnt over, he got one final task left and thats the part where he dies in the HH-series. Well sorry, now you can get back to the interesting arguing.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

bobss said:


> He mentioned small bits like how Ahriman (sp?) summons Daemons *Cough* Bloodletters *Cough* accidentally, believing they are just 'Warp entities' ( hence this whole theory of the Imperium knowing very little of the forces of Chaos at this time...)


but Magnus was one of the few that actually DID know about the warp and the powers that lurkerd within, when the emperor first found magnus he was already dabbeling in magic so the emperor told him all about the warp and chaos, magnus was shocked and said he'd no longer practice the dark arts. But... He couldn't help himself and thus the council of Nikea was techanically his second warning. Maybe magnus did know but never told his thousand sons the whole truth? I wonder?


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