# Venerable Dreadnoughts-Worth it?



## fuzzawakka

So I am looking into fielding some dreadnoughts and have been thinking about trying a venerable dreadnought, but they are 165 points! That is 60 more points for 1 extra ws and bs and the special venerable rule which basically allows you to have your opponent reroll if you dont like that he penetrated your armor. It is a pretty nice thing but is it really worth that extra 60 points? By the time you put the guns you want on it the dreadnought will be around 180-200 points! It only has AV12 and for that extra bs its not that big of a deal because most of the guns on dreadnoughts are tl anyways. I am just having a hard time seeing how spending so much on it. Anyone use them and have great success?


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## Galahad

That reroll ability makes the flimsy AV12 act like AV14, they are insanely hard to kill (especially if you slap on extra armor)

But they ARE hideously expensive. I'd be tempted to favor an ironclad in a pod, but that's my blood angels side talking


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## maddermax

A friend of mine always runs his venerable dread - Ned. So far, it has only died in one game, of the dozen he's used him in. And that took an armoured company, a platoon of heavy weapons and then finally a baneblade to the back  They are exceptionally durable, and if obscured, almost indestructable.


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## fuzzawakka

i just dont see how an av12 is durable one hit with a lascannon s9 you only miss on a 1 or 2 so that reroll is highly unlikly to roll a 1 or 2 or even worse gets shot with a melta gun and its toast no matter how many times you reroll. I guess I will give it a try and hopefully get proved wrong  I am running 5 dreadnoughts so I guess I can afford to make one of them vunerable the rest are ironclads. That av13 seems better for so much less points but I guess we shall see.


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## fuzzawakka

alright I made a list using the Verneable Dreadnought. I would love to get suggestions about the list as I have never used a vernaeable before.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28835


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## Galahad

Ok...

Odds of a lascannon hitting (based on BS4): 66.66% 

Odds of S9 penetrating AV12: 50% (66.66% if you include glances, but we'll leave them out for now)

Odds of that glance resulting in a Destroyed: 33.33%

So, the chance of a single lascannon shot destroying a dread are 11.1%

Odds of a single lascannon shot destroying a Venerable dread are about 3.7% (since you have to roll the 33% twice only one third of those destorye dresults will happen again)

Let's do the same math with AV 14

66.66% of shots hit
16.66% of those penetrate
33.33% of those destroy

So the odds of a single lascannon destroying an AV14 vehicle are about <drumroll> 3.7%

So when it comes to destroying the walker, an AV12 ven dread is just as survivable as an AV14 tank. It might get banged up a little more, but it's not as likely to get killed off. If you go for extra armor you;re much more likely to get a simple shaken result than a kill (since you won;t reroll a shaken or stunned)

So venerable IS insanely survivable, but is it worth the cost to you?
The best use for a venerable is as a las/missile tank hunter. Keep it back, use cover, exploit that higher BS.
Unfortunately it's also the most expensive dread on the field that way. You could go with cheaper weapons, but that's giving up on the enhanced BS. You could tool it up for assault and exploit the high WS, but the ironclad is better suited for that.


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## maddermax

Ah, I forgot to mention that my friends Ven. dread is part of his DA army - the old "re-roll on the damage chart" thing really makes them able to take a hit or 50, especially under 5th ed. Didn't realise they'd changed them in the new version (haven't had much quality time with the new C:SM yet - but soon) Sounds like the new version, reroll the penetration, is still pretty effective though, nice use of the mathhammer Gal.


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## wombat_tree

Wow I didnt realise they were that good! Im so using a Ven Dread now!


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## Galahad

The only problem is, they're very expensive. 

The tank-hunting variant (ML and Las) costs almost as much as a land raider, but with less firepower, speed and transport capability.

Venerable IS good, but you have to ask yourself is it worth 50 or 60 points?


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## fuzzawakka

wow nicely explained galahad I will try it and see if it lives up to its points  +rep...eventually as it says I need to spread it before giving you more.


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## fowlplaychiken

Aye. The issue of the venerable isnt effectiveness; it IS very effective. The issue is points cost. When you take that Landraider-cost venerable, will it likely kill an equal points value before it dies or the game ends? The answer is, probably not. I run the ironclad, because for the points it seems to have a better kill/death ratio, even including the cost of the droppod in its points total. The only thing on it that needs upgrading is changing teh SB to a hvy flamer, and throwing a drop pod for it. Pretty basic. You can field 1 drop pod Ironclad and a predator or another squad of infantry for the cost of one non-drop pod venerable. 

Now, in a seeming contradiction, the shootey venerable IS better in smaller games. In 750pt games, for example, opponents usually lack the massed heavy weapons to do solid damage to a kitted out venerable. They also usually field very few tanks, limiting the effectiveness of an ironclad. It is almost guarenteed to survive to the games end, and fulfills two roles simultaniously; anti tank, minor anti infantry (missile launcher that barely scatters), and melee (very little will knock it out in CC even lacking a close combat arm). 

However, in such a small game, its usually more economic to field a vanilla dread.


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## Johnathanswift

Go math hammer, I knew they where resistant little buggers, but not as resistant as a LR. IMO however those 60 pts are better spent on something more effective, an atack bike comes to mind if you are thinking tankhunting, kudos for the well reasond explanation though


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## dopey82

I field a ven dread in a drop pod. equiped with multi-melta dreadnought CCW heavy flamer. It cost a lot but droping it on enemy tanks or troops usually wields a good return.


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## Vaz

I've had good things come from a Single Drop-Pod Ironclad. They're tough enough to withstand the Power fists that come their way (generally), and can put out 4 Str 10 Attacks a turn, in addition to Flaming and Meltaing them on the way in.

However, for Tank hunting, you're not going to want to Drop Pod in - and having an AV 12 sub 14 Walker is very, very nice.


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## Saint7515

um... what was brought up earlier basically raised the right question, but I'm not sure if the math stated before is exactly right; a twin-linked las cannon hitting and ONLY COUNTING the penetrating hit...

AV12 = 1/8 chance to get destroyed/blowed-up.
AV14 =1/24 chance
AV12 with re-rolls on pen = 1/12.

I know I'm chewing the bit over the difference between 4% and 8%, especially when the shaken or Weapon destroyed could matter more, and the glancing hits throw things offsubstantially; but the biggest thing was chance to hit on the twin-linked las-cannon (not 2/3, but 3/4 [50%+{50%*(100%-50%)}]=75%, or 3/4). I know its really minor, BUT:

This plays out (for BT anyway) as being able/not being able to justify paying 35 points to drop a 1/8 chance of death to 1/12 for fire support in the form of that very las cannon and a missile launcher. Its better than that since you're getting the +ws/bs in regular marines, but I don't remember the points difference then, and I don't know how others would use them...


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## MaidenManiac

If I were to use a Venerable Dreadnought I'd opt for Plasma Cannon and DCCW on it. Deducting 5 from the scatter will mean that even on average roll (7) it wont scatter away from the target unit enough to miss completly. Even if you only can shoot 2 times on a battle this has a serious chance of tanking back its points thanks to the highly destructive power of Plasmacannons:wink:


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## Galahad

Saint, just for reference, I was basing my math off of a non-TL las, and I was only dealing with penetrating hits just to make things easier to understand. I'm sure the math changes if you throw TL into the mix, but I was going with just straight up BS4 to make things easier.

Remember, however, that the Venerable rule (at least for normal SM) applies to both Penetrating AND glancing hits. (All rolls on the damage table) so your odds of getting immobilized or weapon destroyed are much less as well, particularly if you buy Extra Armor


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## bl0203

I think the Venerable Dreads are very useful, however you can't plop one on the board and expect it to survive. You need to support it with other dreads, armor and high priority targets. If I were to run a dread list I would probably go with atleast two Venerable with Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher, two Ironclads, and possibly another Dread or Shooty tank depending on the points spread. Suppoort this with some Mech Tac Squads and you'll be good to go.


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## World Eater XII

i havent used a ven dread as im a chaos player, but as a guy who has faced one they are tough and in my view worth it! Only kharn managed to mangle it apart and then only just. those rerolls just make it hard to destroy unless you destroy all its weapons and immobilise!


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