# So officially which is the best Close Combat army?



## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

As I said above "officially which is the best Close Combat army?" I personnally think Chaos but what does everyone else think.


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## DarknessDawns (Oct 21, 2007)

i would say tyranids as near all their army is composed of close combat units


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

tyranids, i'm a nid player so i would know, but chaos is pretty darn good at it so is orks, numbers really do help.


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## DarknessDawns (Oct 21, 2007)

hoard armies dominate close combat (except guard) *snickers*


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## obsidian492 (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah, I think nids is probably the terrifying reality. Masses of sharp claws tends to do quite a bit of damage - scary little freaks that they are. Chaos is still pretty deadly though.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Bugs. Fleet of claw added with a horde army and an inordinate amount of CC units, lots of rending and other nasty add ons make BUGS #1 as a Close Combat Army bar-none.
IMHO of course.


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## spitfire6x (Jan 28, 2008)

as a guard player i dont let the enemy get that close


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## Darthlace (Aug 31, 2007)

Nids I say - I hear they can be a pain in the arse up close


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## Truthiness08 (Jan 17, 2008)

Well up until the new chaos codex came out I would have said a world eaters army, 12 berserkers with chain axes swinging for 44 attack plus their champion who has the axe of khorne (extra attack gained by every roll of a 6). But now I guess either 13th company or Nids.


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## Damned Fist (Nov 2, 2007)

I vote for Dark Eldar. Definitely not an army to go hand to hand with.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I'd still go For Khorne you can give a Lord a Juggernaught and a Bloodfeeder so he can have up to 19 str 5 Power weapon attacks and Zerkers get Furious charge and still get lots of attacks.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

well voted based on what army can be the strongest with entirellyy CC(no shots not even on the charge) i would say tyranids.

Mind you Chaos scares me more in CC.


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

> I vote for Dark Eldar. Definitely not an army to go hand to hand with.


My BT squash DE constantly, Thier initiative and wytches are the only thing they got going for them, but thier toughness 3 eventually kills them. The talos is also something to avoid.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

chaos khorne they are hard enough to take damage and good enough to dish it out aswell


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## kharnthebetrayer (Nov 26, 2007)

Khorne Berzerkers. Although Nids are good at close combat, its only because their is a ton of them. One on one nids would get destroyed against a khorne berzerker. Also average Chaos Marines are equiped with a bolter, a bolt pistol and a chainsword. So, khorne berzerkers . . .


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

kharnthebetrayer said:


> Khorne Berzerkers. Although Nids are good at close combat, its only because their is a ton of them. One on one nids would get destroyed against a khorne berzerker. Also average Chaos Marines are equiped with a bolter, a bolt pistol and a chainsword. So, khorne berzerkers . . .


While one on one a Khornate Berserker is superior...we're talking about armies...and CSM aren't cheap where a full table of slashy-gaunts is VERY cheap.

For a CC "ARMY" I stand by Tyrannids.


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## Darkangeldentist (Oct 31, 2007)

Tyranids, every time.

An army who's troops can be WS and I 6 with fleet and rending! As far as close combat goes nothing else comes close to beating stealers. Then add in all the other options the nids have and you are pretty much guarrenteed to win a straight up punch-up.


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

dark eldar. 

yes, their toughness will eventually kill them. yes, most of them are wearing soggy cardboard for armor. 

however, they're essentially set up for close combat...if you know what you're doing (as with every army....). with initiative 5, crazy mad wargear, and no synapse to worry about, seems to me the dark eldar are just plain scary in close combat. 

that being said, you can mitigate the threat by simply not allowing them to get into cc....but that's not the question :biggrin:


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## kharnthebetrayer (Nov 26, 2007)

Elchimpster said:


> For a CC "ARMY" I stand by Tyrannids.


YOUR WRONG:angry:!

Actually, your probably right. I just love Chaos Space Marine and Khorne.



KILL, MAIM, BURN :ireful2:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I think that while Tryanids are definitely a brutal cc army, Dark Eldar are just sick. Properly handled they can eviscerate just about anything with ease.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Nobody get stuck in like the boyz. I challenge anyone to make a squad that an equivalent points worth of slugga boyz led by a nob with a powerklaw can't take. Hormagaunts? Easy. Genestealers? Easy. CC tyrant or carnifex? Delicious cake. Chaos marines with a mark of khorne can come close, but they're still trying to kill 6 point models while the nob with the powerklaw tears 15 point models to pieces. Khorne berserkers are actually easier for them to take due to being more expensive. Terminators? LOL. Wyches? No problem. Striking scorpions? Even easier than the CSM.

Nobody gets stuck in like the boyz. :mrgreen:

However, the good part about nids is their speed in getting to CC. The ork answer to that is to field stormboyz and whatnot that are better than the hormagaunts for the same price (if you up their str) and to field shoota boyz that can put an impressive volume of fire down as they approach.


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## Frostbite (Oct 17, 2007)

Well, from that list, I'd choose Nids, for the reasons stated above. However, I'm very partial to the hand to hand killiness of Kroot Mercs. What's not to love about infiltrating masses of screaming battle chickens, some armed with powerfists and the rest throwing down with a Marines stats?


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

@Culler: Yes, true, but there are 120 Hormagaunts on the table. Hooray for the little guys!

I would say an Endless Swarm is enough for any Guard player to have a serious change of undergarments time. Especially when you consider I'm hitting your lines on turn 1.

For The Emp-Gaaak!

-Dirge


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Well, I'd say tyranids...
But I voted for the Inquisition, simply because I love those incenerators and holocaust.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm gonna go with...Blood Angels. Death Company anyone?


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Orks Orks and more Orks. There are just so damn many of them it doesn't matter how many you kill. Oh and the endless swarm has got jack squat on the green tide. 2d6 waagh when the army is waaghing and pick the highest and that might just be with ghazgul. And another thing, nids might have move through cover, but the green tide could care less.
Now in non aporkalypsebiggrin games, ORKS. Again they don't care how many of them die. And the one way orks beat nids is their toughness. 4 compared to a 3 means a lot in that most of the time only half of the hits will wound. There is no doubt that the orks beat nids. NO WAY!!!!!!!


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## The Red Thirst (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I put space marines but what I really meant was blood angels... theyre pretty devastating in CC...


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Dirge Eterna said:


> @Culler: Yes, true, but there are 120 Hormagaunts on the table. Hooray for the little guys!


If there are 120 hormagaunts on the table, then for the same cost there are 200 ork boyz. 

WAAAGH!!!


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

dont forget the eldar harlequins, close combat monsters that can tear through almost anything, back them up with an avatar and a load of flamer weilding stormguardians and its good night nids


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

neilbatte said:


> dont forget the eldar harlequins, close combat monsters that can tear through almost anything, back them up with an avatar and a load of flamer weilding stormguardians and its good night nids


Unfortunately harlies get torn apart by shooting. Granted, the shooting has to be done from pretty close up. Also harlies have trouble with orks. Their rending does little and their attacks do little and then the orks strike back with 2x as many attacks (assuming each harlie w/kiss managed to kill at least 2), wounding them just as easily and the harlies saving only a few more times than the orks did. The next round even more orks get stuck in and the harlies get wiped unless they hit and run at which point the orks can charge. Either way it's a bunch of dead space elves.:mrgreen:

I agree that they tear nids to pieces though. They beat stealers on I on the charge and can inflict great damage and on gaunts/hormagaunts their regular attacks can clear great swathes. I find this out the hard way. Nids failing in CC is why I stopped playing them on Vassal.


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## J1R3H (Jan 26, 2008)

tyranids......like to to deal with enemy close and personal


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## purepolarpanzer (Jan 8, 2008)

Green is best!

But seriously. Orks boyz kick the crap out of any other CC unit out there, and seeing as they are always the basis of my army....

Tyranids are goood, but gaunts die and they don't wound. Hormagaunts get alot of orcs, but orks cost almost half their points and kill more gaunts. Not to mentiong they can shoot them to deaht before they get the chance to charge (not that they need to). Chaos marines get hosed by orks- the green tide drowns them. That, and the fact that the ork power klaw matters, while the chaos one... not so much.

Eldar are laughable. Sure, Harlequins are nasty. But they die easier than genestealers, for like, what, 2 points less? Against any hoarde based army they do well first round, then die horrible messy deaths due to t3 5+ save. They do it fashionably, with pretty sequins and bows, but still very messy, very dead.

My friend and I had it out on this weeks before the orks came out. I tried almost every army as an example AGAINST him. All of the come up short. Then I played Orks, and realized how much better they are than we could even imagine. All in all, Orks kill them all.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

its got to be a wych army yes its fragile getting there but combat to combat army there is not other anywere close imo

martin

p.s well maybe ork lol


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

Orkz iz made for fightin' and winnin'! Point for point da boys rule the day. Grotsnikk boyz can even be invulnerable! Nuff said.


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## Dreamseller (Nov 15, 2007)

i belive its chaos in general because each infantry unit gets atleast 2 attacks in close combat. they may not have any rending attacks but they can take a bit of damage with tht 3 + armour save


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

You mean all armies don't get 2 attacks? Even a shoota boy has two attacks.:biggrin:


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

id say its between orks nids n chaos,,, DE are just to vulnerable getting there imo unless handled very professional

khorne are tought and so are nurgle with toughness 5. but orks and nids as hordes will most likely pull it off.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

If we Include Massive Hordes of Daemons in Chaos what would you say then?
Lesser Daemons cheap, 2 attacks, Ws4, Str4, T4, I4, 5+ Invulnerable save.
Greater Daemon Smacks the shit out of almost any Independant Character.
Add them to the insane Lord with up to 19 str5 Power weapon attacks
and a Horde of Obliterators maybe a few Spawns and you get a lot of attacks that are more likely to wound and a stab at surviving Heavy Firepower.


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## dred73 (Jan 24, 2008)

yeah orcs are good and all but i think nids will win the day with stealers that have 4 attacks on the charge a scout move fleet of claw and rending plus lets not forget raveners witch have 5 attacks a piece with rending and have 12 inch charge and fleet of claw and 2 wounds and the king cheese master of all the winged tyrant with lash and sword with scything with warp field i love that 2+ save and 6+ invulnerable its awsome he has never been killed in single combat yet. 

I mean really how can you beat that kind of cheese in an army with out shooting it is almost impossable.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Grey Knights are the best a lot of high strength power weapons.


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

A daemonhost pretty much rocks but you can't take grey knights then.:cray: So I'd then have to say a pure grey knights army would kick ass.


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## Hornet (Feb 22, 2008)

Tau.....

Seriously though, i would go for tyrinids.


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

Looks like you 'Nid and Chaos lovaz need to be on the bussiness end of an ork choppa before ya bow to da boys. Fine as far as Orks are concerned as they would rather fight about it anyway.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

dark eldar becasue of wych cults. If you've played one you know what i'm talking about.

mandrakes= deepstrike anywhere in the map that their minis are around 6" then charge into assault in a squad of 10 thats 30 attacks. 5+ cover save at all times.
wyches in vehicles plus combat drugs= they move 12" lets say they get the combat drug that gives them 12" assault. then thats 10 wyches assaulting you 30 attacks INT6. not to mention the're weapons halve your weapon skill. not even going to mention the HQs because they are ridiculous. If the DE player knows what they are doing you're up against a very nasty 1st turn assault, which kinda breaks your own morale on your troops.

2nd would be orks


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Funny, my orks seem to always clean up DE in CC. Maybe because those DE are almost all str 3, t3, pricey, and have little to no armor save. I'll see your mandrakes' 30 attacks and raise you a slugga mob with 120 attacks on the charge at str 4 and t4 :biggrin:


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## GhostBear (Feb 17, 2008)

My vote went to Tyranids. I've never faced an Ork army before so I don't have any first hand knowledge of their capabilities. Orks do sound tough and I look forward to facing them in the future.


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## Zeldrin (Feb 23, 2008)

Though I acknowledge the potency of orks in the fray and my bias, my vote goes with Tyranids. Though a boys squad may get the better of a spinegaunt squad in combat, I feel nids have far more options when it comes to close combat (genestealers, carnifex and hive tyrant being obvious examples). Indeed, they can be completely tailored to close combat with a range of enemies in mind so for this reason I think they rank top.

Zeldrin


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## KharnTheBetrayer86 (Feb 26, 2008)

World eater space marines, hands down

Oh no. four squads of thirty gaunts coming my way? oh the horror...oh, wait, i can kill that many with one squad in one round of combat and I brought enough squads for everyone. But wait, a carnifex...oh, right, Skull champion with powerfist gets 5 strength 8 attacks at WS 5...Tut, silly me. 

Chaos are awesome, hoard armies are awesome. So the answer is of course a chaos hoard army. Mine can pump out nearly 500 attacks if it all charges on the same turn. how many orcs can you bring to a 1500 point army again?


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

well i would vote but khorne berzerkers are awesome in CC but don't have the numbers like orks and tyrainds so there really the best 3 to me, no one is better then the other.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Love the avatar, Kharn!



Blood Angels

Why?

Because you have the most deadly counter charge unit on the game of 40K

Jump Pack BA Death Company with Chaplain [Lemartes]

- additional assault units such as Veteran Assault Squads that can take anything on, jump pack assault marines as troops, the baddest assault Loyalist character in Mephiston....

-on top of all this, a whole host of shooting support options such as Baal Predators, MM a bikes for cheap, and all the other Heavy support options available to regular space marines....

I think the assault phase is most important, but having shooty elements in your assault army allows you to take the initiative by killing transports and forcing your opponent to come to you under your terms....

Come to me? I will screen my counter charge units with expendable troops and break the back of your assault by getting the all important charge into your units.

I killed 8 berserkers in one round of combat. For no losses.

Thats what happens when you force him to come to you under fire and he cant get the charge off against the units he needs to kill first...

Don't want to come at me? I will restrict you movement with heavy weapons and drive an assault force into you hiding place.


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## psychomidget99 (Feb 10, 2008)

Is this a joke? ORKSEZ!!!

Heaps of them, quality troops, pwnage specialist units, a Toughness 6 Boss on bike, what can beat them? Khorne based armies would be an absolute pain to beat, and Eldar Harlequins and Striking Scorpions will put up a real fight, as will Death Company, but even the best combat units like Wyches or Terminators have no hope of standing up to so many Str4, 5 and 6 hits in combat. I'd go onto shooting, but that'd drag this thread off-topic.

psychomidget99


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

psychomidget99 said:


> Is this a joke? ORKSEZ!!!
> 
> Heaps of them, quality troops, pwnage specialist units, a Toughness 6 Boss on bike, what can beat them? Khorne based armies would be an absolute pain to beat, and Eldar Harlequins and Striking Scorpions will put up a real fight, as will Death Company, but even the best combat units like Wyches or Terminators have no hope of standing up to so many Str4, 5 and 6 hits in combat. I'd go onto shooting, but that'd drag this thread off-topic.
> 
> psychomidget99


My lord on a Juggernaought with a Bloodfeeder would have something to say first he beat of a fully equipped squad of Harlequins and then wrenched apart a squad of Howling Banshees oh and killed an Avatar too a T6 Warboss is'nt gonna stand in his way. plus I have to Obliterators have have taken a liking to Blowing up Warbosses.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

Culler said:


> Funny, my orks seem to always clean up DE in CC. Maybe because those DE are almost all str 3, t3, pricey, and have little to no armor save. I'll see your mandrakes' 30 attacks and raise you a slugga mob with 120 attacks on the charge at str 4 and t4 :biggrin:


well i'm not saying i've lost everytime against DE but, like i said if you got someone who knows how to play them then you're in for a treat.




KharnTheBetrayer86 said:


> World eater space marines, hands down
> Chaos are awesome, hoard armies are awesome. So the answer is of course a chaos hoard army. Mine can pump out nearly 500 attacks if it all charges on the same turn. how many orcs can you bring to a 1500 point army again?


wow talk about hoard army lets see one boy is only 6 pts you can have 32 in a squad if my math is right you should be able to field 192 boys at only 1152 pts. holy shit!:shok: over 100 boys. Leaving you enough room for some wargear and heavy support and mob of nobs. furious charge if they get 1st turn and waaagh! (fleet of foot). it would be interesting to say the least. I'm not completely sure about the max you can have in a squad bc i dont play orks but i have friends that do and they woould love to bring the green tide to your door step.:grin:

litlle bit more math here. lets see over all attacks not counting charge bonuses bc it would be hard to tell how many get it. 384A lest say hit on 4+ it seems average. back to 192 then wound most on 4+ thats 96 saves. which statiscally on a space marine he would save 70% of it. roughly 32 bodies on the ground. this also speculation and not a real number to go by. how many chaos space marines can you field at 1500 pts?


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## majorbragdon (Feb 13, 2008)

*Orks*

I vote for the Orks.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Gore Hunter said:


> My lord on a Juggernaought with a Bloodfeeder would have something to say first he beat of a fully equipped squad of Harlequins and then wrenched apart a squad of Howling Banshees oh and killed an Avatar too a T6 Warboss is'nt gonna stand in his way.


Well, beyond that lord's 33% chance to get no attacks in cc and take a wound from his own weapon, he could probably kill the warboss if he ever caught up to him with his 6" movement vs. the warboss's 12"/24" but I think the chaos lord might have a bit of a problem with a simple boyz mob. Hello powerklaw, goodbye lord.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Tyranids,

Any army that you can take 1500pts and basically no guns... they've got to be good at CC or what's the point? Genestealers, Carnifex, Tyrants, Raveners, Lictors, Hormagaunts, Warriors, Broodlord.. hell, even gaunts in numbers. Plus they can all be made more deadly with the various morphs.

Haven't read the new Ork codex yet so I can't comment on them.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

Nightbringer416 said:


> well i'm not saying i've lost everytime against DE but, like i said if you got someone who knows how to play them then you're in for a treat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


very nice explanation, but dont slugga boyz have 2 basic attacks + 1 more for 2 CC weaps? if thats true (least that how it was in old codex) if 192 boys charge, each one having 4 attacks that would total to be *768 ATTACKS*!!!!

assuming orcs do hit\wound on +4, that means about 384 attacks would hit. and since CSM armor saves 66% of the time, then that means 127 unsaved wounds would be made. do berserkers have feel no pain now? if they do then half of those would be saved from it. meaning 63.5 wounds would be unsaved and therefore about 63 berserkers dead. i think berserkers are 22 points or somesuch and so that would mean 1386 points was just downed by some boys. if it were full blown melee of course.

sorry khorne boy, but i think the orcs have you beat. and thats not even the full 1500 points you asked for....:so_happy:


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## KharnTheBetrayer86 (Feb 26, 2008)

Would love to argue, truly I would. But the sheer number of attacks is worrying there. Fortunately Orks tend to have Kans and Crazy artillery and the like, so that force is unlikely. But I have to say, its a shame, because thats a worrying prospect.


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## ZsoSahaal (Feb 28, 2008)

Tyranids. They are 90% close combat (probaly).


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

imo a witch cult in the hands of a GREAT player can beat anyone. especialy against another close combat orentated army.

most cases they stike first, the shear amount of attacks, the amount of power weapons and the speed of which they can move.

but havin said that not a very fast army but a faily fast one would be the genstealer army all with fleet and sculers (scout move) and infiltate (i think). they are in your face tune one with a reduclas amount of attacks rending with I6 not much can stand up to that.

martin


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Bugs beat all, lol. Most every army can be combat heavy, but only the bugs can be pure combat 'specialists' as an army. I imagine that in the next edition, bugs will be a very, very competitive top-tier army.


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## psychomidget99 (Feb 10, 2008)

Gore Hunter said:


> My lord on a Juggernaought with a Bloodfeeder would have something to say first he beat of a fully equipped squad of Harlequins and then wrenched apart a squad of Howling Banshees oh and killed an Avatar too a T6 Warboss is'nt gonna stand in his way. plus I have to Obliterators have have taken a liking to Blowing up Warbosses.


IMO you just got absurdly lucky with your dice rolling and you opponent had very bad luck. 

Harlequins would strike first with 3 Rending attacks each, and if it's fully equipped it is a unit of 10 like mine. Statistically your opponent should have rolled 5 Rending hits and 10 normal hits, then 3 wounds. Of you normal saves you should have failed one, and of the 5 Rending hits you should have failed 3more.

Against the Avatar, it'd have gone first. Assuming your lord charged, the Avatar would score 3 wounds, and with your invulnerable you'd have failed 2 of them. The average roll on a D6 is 3 or 4, so we'll call it that you get a 3 and 4. You've got 12 attacks, and as you'd only get 2 wounds, th Avatar should only fail one.

Banshees don't even have invulnerable saves, and aren't very hard to kill. 

And don't forget that Warbosses can only be Instant Killed by Strength 10 weapons, and if anything the Obliterators are worse with the new codex update.

Oh yeah and if you didn't get a single one on your roll for the extra D6 attacks, then I envy you greatly- Typhus has this annoying habit o half-killing himself whenever he's doing something essential to my plans.

psychomidget


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## connor986 (Feb 14, 2008)

i would go with nids not only are they strong there cheap and they sometimes have that abbility to move a D6" plus haveing so many of them they have loads of attacks that allways helps


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

The bugs and orks are definately great cc armies, but I would still have to side with World Eaters on being the best cc army. To fight bugs you just have to stay in some cover to render their charge and initiative useless and tear em up. Play test it, gene stealers vs. berzerkers at same point value without any charge bonuses on either side and its close, but berzerkers usually have the upper hand.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

pyroanarchist said:


> The bugs and orks are definately great cc armies, but I would still have to side with World Eaters on being the best cc army. To fight bugs you just have to stay in some cover to render their charge and initiative useless and tear em up. Play test it, gene stealers vs. berzerkers at same point value without any charge bonuses on either side and its close, but berzerkers usually have the upper hand.


i agree with that , but without a charge bonus then you're just calculating numbers and we all know at the end of a battle numbers go out the window because you either rolled really good or really bad. As far as being in cover a good tyranid player will find a way to get you out of cover before sending in the calvary. I still stick to DE 1, very close second Orks.


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## coldstuff64 (Feb 11, 2008)

'nids. nothing else to say.


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

I guess my thoughts of 'nids aren't as high as most players. We have a 'nid player in our group who doesn't use them terribly effectively. He can win against novice players just by swarming and takes an entirely cc based army. He doesn't have a way to flush someone out of cover. Tyranids can be used extremely well when you incorporate a cheap tyrant with a couple guns (sorry, can't remember the name off hand. Venom Cannon maybe). I just haven't had to play against that much so I'm probably biased. I can win cc against 'nids, but maybe thats the 'nids player's fault.


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## GhostBear (Feb 17, 2008)

Tyranids with Flesh Hooks are okay assaulting into cover. Catalyst or Bone Sword wielding Tyrants also help against superior Initiative.


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