# LandRaiders Deep Strike? WTF?!



## OceanofBlood (Oct 19, 2009)

Upon checking the new blood angels codex, LandRaiders can Deep Strike? Thoughts? WHY?! Lets just ma
ke everything Deep Strike then why not? wat the EFF!


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Not happy, it's like dropping a rock from orbit then expecting it to be able to move around afterwards.

If only kroot had vehicles that could infiltrate *SIGH*...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

could represent it being dropped in by thunderhawk transporter


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> could represent it being dropped in by thunderhawk transporter


Yes but when have codicies, rulebooks, force-organisation charts, stat-lines or general game mechanics ever taken any notice of the laws of fluff?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I wonder...... if you load it up with assault terminators could you bring it in from DS and deploy the terminators to assault the enemy?


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## Talthewicked2 (Mar 16, 2010)

Nope ... termies could not assault the turn that they are DS in LR that has DS.


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## KeeperOfSecrets22 (Jan 26, 2010)

It seems like too much of a strategic advantage for such a behemoth. Besides wouldn't it be better to have it there on turn 1? This is crazy I'd have to look at the other differences between this and more standard SM chapters to be sure, but this seems as ludicrous as anything else in the new edition, ludicrous did i say that i mean erroneous two counts of erroneous, I think I've confused myself. Eh why not if i could field two Daemon princes let em put a parachute on the landraider and give it a shove.


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

Does it still follow normal mishap rules? Or does it work like a drop pod?


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## Salahaldin (Aug 15, 2009)

The reasoning behind deep-striking landraiders is the thunderhawk gunship dropping it in. What I don't understand is why no other chapter can do it. I get the Blood Angels like to use Thunderhawk gunships, but by no means are they the only ones who use them. I could easily imagine White Scars, Raven Guard, Hawk Lords (A space marine chapter known for their extensive use of Thunderhawk gunships.) and Space Wolves all using the same tactic. And maybe someone could explain why the Blood Angels are the only ones who get a mini Thunderhawk gunship currently known as the Storm Harbringer? (That transport that carries 12 infantry with jump packs AND a Dreadnought.


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## OceanofBlood (Oct 19, 2009)

I think the Idea of letting landraiders Deep Strike allows for pretty much anything else to eventually DS, this is going to get out of hand. Imagine Turn 5 for holding objectives and your enemy drops a LR filled to the brim with Terminators right on it. thats it, game over. and if you want to make the thunderhawk argument, at least we should be able to shoot it down with missiles or something...


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## OceanofBlood (Oct 19, 2009)

Enjoy wiping the table with your BA's (probly be me you kill if you are in NoVa lol)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

They can deep strike a Land Raider full of Terminators if they want.

Ill be happy to watch it scatter, mishap, and destroy itself and everyone in it.:grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If its being droped via thunderhawk how in the name of god is it going to scatter? lol


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> If its being droped via thunderhawk how in the name of god is it going to scatter? lol


Well, hovering and slowly letting it down would take a lot longer than dropping it while moving, so therefore the opponent should get more than 1 turn to shoot at it.

If the LR has deep strike and doesn't scatter, then its completely broken, and should be worth 300+ points.


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## scubamansam (Aug 15, 2009)

is it just me or did steel rain just get more interesting? 
(drop pos assualts if you dont know)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I could see getting an extra shot at it but if its deployed via thunderhawk I can't see it scattering.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Put it this way - you always must declare what units are entering via reserves/ds etc..., I can see it as a threat if it has a scoring unit inside and DS's turn 5 but you'll know it's coming plus doing this would leave say in a 1750 battle 420pts (average SM 10 man tact squad +LR) out of the battle - meaning a huge loss for the enemy 1330pts vs 1750pts for like the whole game = big advantage for you! If they do it twice at the end it's even more you will rarely see this tactic happen it's a large point sink to spam in a a list and very risky tatic for nearing the end of a game.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Salahaldin said:


> And maybe someone could explain why the Blood Angels are the only ones who get a mini Thunderhawk gunship currently known as the Storm Harbringer? (That transport that carries 12 infantry with jump packs AND a Dreadnought.


Its called a Stormraven BTW :victory:. 

And the reasoning is that they were the ones who found the plans and didnt want to share them with the Techpriests of Mars. Same with all their fast vehicles. After every battle it is a race between the BA and the Techies to recover damaged vehicles because the techies want to see the different enginesa dn vehicles and the BA don't want to share.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> After every battle it is a race between the BA and the Techies to recover damaged vehicles because the techies want to see the different enginesa dn vehicles and the BA don't want to share.


In other words, its only a matter of time before the standard SM get the Stormraven thing (SM dex 5.5 or 6).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> Its called a Stormraven BTW :victory:.
> 
> And the reasoning is that they were the ones who found the plans and didnt want to share them with the Techpriests of Mars. Same with all their fast vehicles. After every battle it is a race between the BA and the Techies to recover damaged vehicles because the techies want to see the different enginesa dn vehicles and the BA don't want to share.


What!? Withholding valuable STCs from the rest of the imperium? Now I really hate BA..... prissy bastards. lol


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I was going to say at the rate they redo the standard SM codex I can see it coming out with some of these new toys SW and BA get making them more competitive again (librarian/chap dreads come to mind and theis stormraven), then they'll redo BT and DA and then SM again with all the new toys they gained!


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## Feytor (Apr 1, 2009)

Ad Mech doesn't want to share all their technology with SM chapters too, so do not call BA prissy,


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

You guys know its not thunderhawks right? all the BA units seem to have wings pinned on them, so expect a second wave Winged Landraider :laugh:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Salahaldin said:


> The reasoning behind deep-striking landraiders is the thunderhawk gunship dropping it in. What I don't understand is why no other chapter can do it


other chapters can do it, and deep strike more than just raiders, it just means they have to pay for it, where as blood angels basically get a thunderhawk transporter (gunship is a different kettle of fish) that cannot fire for free to fit there theme better.


Salahaldin said:


> And maybe someone could explain why the Blood Angels are the only ones who get a mini Thunderhawk gunship currently known as the Storm Harbringer?


because its only just been created and the fluff for it never existed before and they want to make blood angels more unique.

plus GW most likely will make it available for everyone to get more money soon enough.


gen.ahab said:


> If its being droped via thunderhawk how in the name of god is it going to scatter? lol


there probably doing a more rushed deployment, a transporter is not a combat vehicle, so its not got the time to slowly and carefully drop off the raider, so I'd imagine its more just screaming in, hovering for a few seconds and dropping the tank where it is despite what might be around.

just use some imagina..............oh wait, 40k players, I keep forgetting.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Feytor said:


> Ad Mech doesn't want to share all their technology with SM chapters too, so do not call BA prissy,


It’s the adeptus mechanicus....... all STC's should go to them. If all the chapters had access to this tech it would make them more effective. BUT anyway this is not the fluff forum so whatever..... still prissy. Sorry, I'm a wolves fan myself. :laugh:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> there probably doing a more rushed deployment, a transporter is not a combat vehicle, so its not got the time to slowly and carefully drop off the raider, so I'd imagine its more just screaming in, hovering for a few seconds and dropping the tank where it is despite what might be around.
> 
> just use some imagina..............oh wait, 40k players, I keep forgetting.


I know rapid air insertions and they don't miss. lol I could see an " or 2" but nothing that would effect it.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Maybe they drop the tank without actually stopping? They're just crazy enough to give it a shot.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ya, that’s called a rapid air insertion. At least I think that is what it is called. There are a few military guys on here that would know more than I do.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Enough said.

Stop crying about it.

If the player is IDIOTIC enough to put 400+ points right on your lap, for you to shoot and stab the hell out of, then you should be thanking them, and not whining like a baby about the new codex.


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## dthwish09 (Oct 15, 2009)

I couldnt agree with The Real Sanguinius any more, i personally cannot wait for someone to pull this stunt only to find all of their units inside becoming trapped and thus destroyed.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Calm down, wait for it...

The BA codex is getting what the SM codex got pre-release. Gnashing and wailing and rending of clothes. Let's see how it all works out, then gnash and rend.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Well somebody posted a BA list (of the new dex in the army list section the other day and it had 29 models for a 1500pt game (seems a little small and elite to me) - I mean that's almost worse than the GK's do - yes they have a lot of option but people are like they have this flyer that can fit so much in it and carry dread and men and termies etc all at once that's great.... blow the BLEEPING thing up and all the men have a chnace a dying and being pinned on top of the fact that now it's all ex[osed for your men to shoot it out because it's crashed and burned!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Exactly.

Loads of shit players are going to be drawn into making lists featuring as many of the novel but expensive BA only choices as they can, and get beaten in every game they ever play.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Yeah I mean 29 models in 1500pts or making a a list with say 50 models but no fire support and all drop podding in librarian dread with a vehicle killer psychic power so many players will go that's amazing.... but I play Orks/Nids/IG, I've noticed glimpsing at the book that CC is a big thing for them with outflanking troop killing tanks (baal pred) which yes are great but when the tank is expensive and the all the CC units are too you field less men and will losse as you can't whitle them down. I mean my wyches are great in CC but against 30 standard ork boys they will 80% of the time get smashed as it's a small squad with many attacks but low S vs a large squad with many attacks and low S

I think the BA codex will be balanced due to this and that you will still see many of the old lists (with one or two adjustments) still being played because they work better.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

gen.ahab said:


> Ya, that’s called a rapid air insertion. At least I think that is what it is called. There are a few military guys on here that would know more than I do.


so in real life military forces drop massive tanks from the sky filled with space marines?, were talking about something thats gonna weigh more than even 2 MBT's easily, being dropped in seconds in the middle of a warzone by something thats not supposed to even be that far forward.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

It's gonna weigh more than 4MBT's, easily, if you consider that the actual LR model is way smaller than it should be if all of the models were the same scale.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

well according to the lexicanium the land raider is between 72-81 tonnes (most likely info from IA2), depending on it empty or not, and a Challenger II is 62.5 tonnes, so its not even 2 tanks heavy, and that makes sense since a 240 tonne tank would never move


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes but, frankly, that's wrong.

GW are useless when it comes to physical measurements and dimensions.

One of the BL books describes an Warlord Titan as being over 45m tall. Anyone that knows ANYTHING about meters knows that 45m is tiny.

It wouldn't surprise me that they would set the weight of a tank that is probably 8 times larger than a challenger as being only a few tonnes heavier - because, frankly, they are a bit retarded when it comes to lengths and masses, it seems.



> since a 240 tonne tank would never move


That's funny - the caterpillar tracked carrier that moves space shuttles attached to their boosters around, pre-launch, probably weighs a shitload more than 240 tonnes, and moved around just fine.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Yes but, frankly, that's wrong.


according to who?, because there predator and leman russ weights are pretty close to modern tank weights, and these are made out of lighter more advanced materials


The Real Sanguinius said:


> One of the BL books describes an Warlord Titan as being over 45m tall. Anyone that knows ANYTHING about meters knows that 45m is tiny.


yes but black library doesn't even know what 40k is


The Real Sanguinius said:


> probably 8 times larger than a challenger as being only a few tonnes heavier


8 times seems a little silly for anyone to claim, a Charlie 2 is huge and heavy, its so heavy we can barely transport it overseas.

a land raider is apparently 
10.36m long
4.11m Height
and 6.1m wide

a charlie II is
8.3 m
2.5 m
3.5 m

and after standing next to one I would see no problem in getting 10 blokes in it without a turret (which a land raider does not have), especially since a merkava can carry 10 men including crew in it and thats not allot bigger, and most of it is taken up by engine, which a land raider has a small one in comparison.


The Real Sanguinius said:


> That's funny - the caterpillar tracked carrier that moves space shuttles attached to their boosters around, pre-launch, probably weighs a shitload more than 240 tonnes, and moved around just fine.


is it a tank?, does it cross muddy fields?, does it move through built up terrain? (woods urban), does it cross bridges?, does it go faster than 1 mile per hour?

considering the heaviest German tank of WWII was 192 tonnes and could not cross bridges having a tank 240 tonnes would be retarded to even consider, especially since marines like fast surgical strikes


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## BrotherYorei (May 9, 2009)

land raiders deep strike? where did you see that? i just saw the dex today and i didnt see any way to deep strike a landraider. the only heavy support i saw that could deep strike is the 'raven, and i dont think they are all that great. i wont use them for the same reason i dont use land raiders. too many pints and big bullseye on the side.

also, the real sanguinius, i agree that 45m is small for a titan. just over 147 feet does seem small. seems about a third of what i picture its hieght being.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

8 times was a stab. twice as long, twice as wide and twice as tall - that's 8 times. Doesn't seem outrageous.

10m long for a land raider is yet another example of how retarded GW is with regard to lengths.

A marine is ~3m tall (a standard internal house door in the UK is 2m - so 3m is a great estimate - but one that is constantly debated. However, I take it to be 3m, considering Ibram Gaunt is quoted to be 2m with boots). An LR has a twin linked heavy bolter and thousands of rounds of ammo storage, 2 compartments for twin linked lascannons and fire control/power, and it has a massive engine and all of the stored fuel. It has all of the standard crew compartments and seats. That's at least one driver, a gunner and a commander (so that's 3 marines, all 3m tall with power armour), and then it can carry TEN 3m tall marines in power armour, and all of their gear.

No.

10m is UTTERLY retarded.

This isn't even mentionning the ridiculously thick armour covering the whole thing.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Answer to the Land Raider weight dilemma: space-age materials!

No, seriously. Remember all that stuff about "plasteel" and other such bollocks? I defy you to find a plastic that's even comparable in weight to an equivalent quantity of ferrous metal.

That said, you're not wrong about the general GW-is-crap-with-measurements line. I cringe a little every time Abnett uses meters instead of yards, apparently under the impression that they're one and the same.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I can totally agree with the weight thing - space-age materials can explain it.

However, the actual size of stuff is always wrong when it comes to GW.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> However, the actual size of stuff is always wrong when it comes to GW.


once more says who?
sure a marine might be 3m tall, but if a land raider is 4.11m tall that leaves 1.11m of headroom which is more than plenty for overhead storage and armour which is at the max 95mm thick, which a roof will not be, it would probably be half or less than that.

ammunition for the heavy bolter would most likely be stored near the heavy bolter, and theres plenty of room up front for that, the lascannon components and systems can be stored within the armour between the tracks easily, along with extra engine parts.

there would be room for the 2-3 crew and 10 marines, the measurements may be a little off, but twice as tall/long/wide would produce a tank unable to operate anywhere, thats basic common sense for anyone whos ever bothered to read a book on armoured vehicles.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

No, that isn't true at all. If we assume that, even if it was larger, it would be lighter, then there is no problem.

How would you explain a baneblade?

If using the UBER retarded length of 10m for a land raider, the baneblade IS going to be enormous, still.

Comparing 40k tanks to current tanks is folly, as the materials are totally different.

10m long, to get in 10 3m tall men, all very bulky, is nothing short of silly.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> How would you explain a baneblade?


at 319tonnes a huge waste of resources that has to be transported in pieces, best used in mobile defense avoiding bridges that are not specially made and built up areas, which it does, unless its one of her specially armed sisters.


The Real Sanguinius said:


> If using the UBER retarded length of 10m for a land raider, the baneblade IS going to be enormous, still.


13.5m, which isn't much of a stretch of the imagination, in comparison there does not seem to be a massive difference model wise


The Real Sanguinius said:


> 10m long, to get in 10 3m tall men, all very bulky, is nothing short of silly.


how does 10m long, 3m tall mean anything?..............there not laying down in the land raider you know, there sitting and standing.

and if were not gonna compare to real tanks to get a* realistic* answer, then what do we compare to?, magic tanks?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Futuristic tanks.

All you need to do to know that the comparison is poor, is to compare the earliest of real tanks to the most modern.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Futuristic tanks.


futuristic tanks....right, thats gonna be hard to do since they don't exist so I wouldn't bother, I've shown my point, and I will not compare fiction to fiction as that results in nothing.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

That's exactly my point.

You can't make statements like:



> the measurements may be a little off, but twice as tall/long/wide would produce a tank unable to operate anywhere, thats basic common sense for anyone whos ever bothered to read a book on armoured vehicles.


When they might have said the exact same thing about the Challenger 100 years ago, before the abilities to make one were known.

The same applies to a land raider. It may seem unmanageable in size compared to what we have today. That doesn't actually mean that it's unmanageable.

After seeing the 1:1 scale terminators that they had at GW, I can guarantee that trying to fit 5 into a 10m long tank, with the crew, the ammo, the fuel, the engine, the weapons, and all of the other shit, is going to be impossible.

GW = no clue at all about measurements.

My guess at 8x a challenger isn't far off. It makes it 16-17m long, and twice as tall, discounting the turret. It's hardly unthinkable.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Well as pretty much everybody is aware the Rhino was based on the Bradley, similar appearance, speed and weight while being a bit bigger.

A rhino fits 11 guys (10 + the driver) and thats 6.6 x 4.5 x 3.6 

A Bradley carries 9 guys (commander, driver, gunner and 6 dismounts) and thats 6.55 x 3.6 x 2.98 and that has a turret.

So the marines should have plenty of headroom in comparison to what most soldiers get. APCs and IFVs are never particularly spacious at the best of times.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Yes but Marines are also a damn sight bigger than your average soldier, effectively eliminating that "head room".


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

land raiders aren't real, so we must assume they simply are big enough to fit their soldiers and everything else and be able to still move.

As far as Deepstriking them, it is quite a jump for the rules, but I mean it does fit how space marines would like to fight and im sure they could do it if they wanted.

Also, can't Necron Monoliths DS? those are also 14 armor all around


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

unxpekted22 said:


> land raiders aren't real, so we must assume they simply are big enough to fit their soldiers and everything else and be able to still move.
> 
> As far as Deepstriking them, it is quite a jump for the rules, but I mean it does fit how space marines would like to fight and im sure they could do it if they wanted.
> 
> Also, can't Necron Monoliths DS? those are also 14 armor all around


Yeah but Monoliths are capable of teleportation, it's a bit more of a stretch of the imagination to see a huge tank being dropped from 10 feet off the ground and it still working.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Catpain Rich said:


> Yeah but Monoliths are capable of teleportation, it's a bit more of a stretch of the imagination to see a huge tank being dropped from 10 feet off the ground and it still working.


the russians did it in WWII by fitting wings to tanks, sure the very large majority did not work when they hit the ground, but thats ancient suspension technology.

and the brits use to fit tanks in gliders that still worked when they came smashing into the ground.

so its nowhere near a stretch of the imagination considering advances in technology.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Considering we have already seen pics of a thunderhawk transports (there is even a model), why are we even questioning how it is elligible for deep strike? It isn't "dropped" - the lander can simple "touch down", de-couple the land raider, and then sod off.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> the russians did it in WWII by fitting wings to tanks, sure the very large majority did not work when they hit the ground, but thats ancient suspension technology.
> 
> and the brits use to fit tanks in gliders that still worked when they came smashing into the ground.
> 
> so its nowhere near a stretch of the imagination considering advances in technology.


Fair shout, I'm not as hot as i'd like to be on my WWII history :grin:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I love the way this entire thread ignores 1 basic fact:

The Land Raider model cannot possibly be an accurate represenation of whatever it is supposed to be.

Look at the interior. It is a gangway with seats alongside it that runs from the door to the engine.

Even leaving aside such petty concerns as ammo, fuel, parts etc... there is NOWHERE for the crew to be placed. There is physically not a single part of the model that 2 crew members could possibly be placed in, unless inserted directly into the track sections. There certainly isn't anywhere the driver could possibly drive from.

It's rather pointless arguing the spatial requirements when the basic conception is flawed beyond belief.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

No, I already did point out, early on, that the model was definitely not to scale, and was way too small compared to the models of marines.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

But I'm not arguing scale. I'm arguing basic design. It could be as big as you like and still not work, because there is nowhere for the crew to go.

It's like saying "this house is too big/small to live in" when it doesn't have any rooms. The size is immaterial, because the basic design cannot serve the function for which it is intended.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Oh, I see.

Yeah, I guess that is true. Although, if you read IA, I think there are good drawings of all of the internal workings of the land raider - IIRC.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

We air drop tanks all the time. Granted, they're usually bundled up on a pallet with parachutes attached, they don't just drive off as soon as they hit the ground, but I'm sure it's more than possible to hook parachutes or disposable industrial-sized grav-chutes to a vindicator and roll it out the back of an airborne transport. The machine drifts to the ground, explosive bolts jettison the now useless chutes and bam, you're good to go. 

It's really not that hard to imagine, especially if you;re doing a low altitude swoop and drop maneuver.

here's an M551 Sheridan being dropped out the back of a plane





I'm sure the beefy high-tech suspension of a land raider can handle such a thing, even without the pallet. Or if all else, the admech could whip up a disposable pallet with mechanical clamps in place of all those straps so as soon as it lands and stops it can simply snap open and release the tank

Of course, here's some hilarious results of the Deep Strike Mishap table...


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I haven't paid too much attention to this thread, but why would you want to DS a Land Raider? Unless the rules specify that you count as moving at combat speed or full out, you get hit automatically in HtH. Monstrous creatures and Meltabombs will make quick work of your LR if it land within 12" of them, as well as dropping that much closer to your opponent's meltaguns without the benefit of being able to drop your payload off to engage said meltaguns in HtH. I understand that the LR will get shots at something before you get to respond, but it really doesn't seem any different than a LR going first in a Spearhead scenario.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

space cowboy said:


> I haven't paid too much attention to this thread, but why would you want to DS a Land Raider?


It's not as bad as you think. Most of your enemy's truly lethal anti-tank weaponry is going to be short ranged and assault based, granted, but that stuff is also going to be on the move, *away* from the main body of the enemy forces as they attempt to close the gap and intercept your on-board armored units. People put meltas in transports and on mobile vehicles to get them out ahead of the main force. Those very weapons you mentioned are most likely going to be nowhere near your raider when it finally drops.

Meanwhile, drop a land raider onto the enemy's gunline, or near some juicy ICs (who don't usually pack antitank weapons) and you can cause a lot of havoc. Do it late enough in the game and most of their dedicated antitank elements are not in a good place to come down on you (save for long ranged rear-guard weapons like lascannons, and that's just a matter of being smart about where you plan to land and maybe sending some of your (now FAST) rhinos up to shock/disrupt heavy weapon teams, or at least block LOS)

Especially if the land raider is packed with assault troops/terminators/your own nasty ICs. Suddenly you've got *your* assault element nearer to the enemy. With AV14 all around they can even afford to spend the first turn prior to landing safely holed up inside, then deploy out of the assault ramp and fuck up anything dumb enough to get close to their porta-bunker.

If you're gonna drop a LR on someone it *better* be fully loaded.

Now you've just had the same effect as teleporting/drop-podding your nastiest unit (maybe a crusader packed with deathco?) *right* where they're needed, and virtually guaranteed their safety and ability to assault when and where they want to assault. Assuming you didn't do something stupid and DS in the crossfire of several lascannons, your raider *is* going to survive at least one round after landing, whereupon you can drive that bad boy right up to the juiciest part of the enemy lines and have your boys assault out of it without ever risking them before the assault phase. The biggest problem with deepstriking assault elements is that turn they come in they;re pretty exposed and cannot *usually* launch an ssault to get out of the line of fire. Putting them in a rolling bunker nicely mitigates that danger.



> Thanks,
> Howard


You're welcome.
But don't call me Howard.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Lol this seems like something the angry marines would do.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

250 pt advantage? Cool. If DS counts as moving 12'', minus the PotMS but even then some Ravenwing melta-bikes should get at least 1 shot in on it. Souds kinda like an easy kill actually. 

Now that SW have taken away my Deathwing if the BA take away the Ravenwing I'm going to be pissed.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It's expensive and risky, but it could be a terribly nasty surprise, especially if you've got the enemy's melta units distracted on the other end of the table, maybe going after the other land raider you deployed traditionally.

Or, you know, trying desperately to overtake that trio of Fast Vindicators and/or predators as they whirl around blowing holes in their units


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Galahad - I see your logic.

It all seems very... foolhardy...

I can see that if it all went exactly to plan, then it would ruin an opponents chances. However, being realistic, when is it ever all going to go in favour of the player deepstriking the land raider? I mean, there is alot that can go against them, and it only takes one thing to ruin the whole action and turn it in favour of the opponent.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I never said it was a great plan, in fact I said it was expensive and risky, I just explained why someone would *want* to DS a land raider. That's why. It's better than a drop pod and it has a chance at earning back its points if all goes well.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I didn't get a good look at the codex, but at least the Storm Raven has Ceramite Armor, and is immune to the extra D6 from meltas. Don't know about the Land Raider.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I will admit that I am a CSM players, so the handicaps of some other armies do not necessarily apply to mine, but winged DPs, meltas in every unit, plus Oblits/Defilers/Vindicators allow me to have a full army of LR busting goodness.

I assume that a vast majority of games are going to be played knowing that you are playing a BA player when you go into the game (meaning that you can tailor your force against them) and it should be expected and therefore not much of a problem.

If you are playing in a league or tournament where you need to build against all comers, you should probably have some idea regarding the likelihood of facing a BA player (the rough percentage of BA played at tournaments, how competitive they are, etc.) and can figure out how much or little you need to plan for them in your army list.

In either case, there should be no surprise if they take a LR if there are the points for it, and most players should be able to handle it. There is very little difference between any one particular nastiness from any one army deep striking and any other nastiness from any other army deep striking. Sure a LR has 14 armor, but a Stormraven can serve the same purpose, and a Drop Pod gets you there faster.

People were talking earlier about a turn 5 deep strike LR, but the odds of that happening are extremely low. You don't get to choose whether you bring in Reserves, or whether you even roll for them on a particular turn (barring an exception or so) and it just doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as the beginning of the thread was talking about.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It's just the raven, Creon 
If they made land raiders immune to meltas, trust me, you'd KNOW
Everyone would still be screaming about it by the time they get around to updating dark eldar.

Anyway, I rarely fielded land raiders before, chances are I won;t field one now. It;s just too hard to justify the expense. I'm much more likely to buy into predators and vindicators now though.

But someday...someday I will DS a crusader full of Death Company onto the board, just once, just for shits and giggles.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

It might actually be nearly impossible to DS a land raider and not get a mishap. The damn things are HUGE! I'm not even sure you can get the center of the unit within 6" of a beacon without landing on the beacon!

Now, I'm not sure what purpose a D/S land raider will serve. I just want to see the things screaming from the skies! Now, if they'd just given it the Mawloc rule. "DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!" It's a trick, they BA are tricksey.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Rofl LR with the mawloc rule.

People would march to GW HQ with placards, in protest.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

That would be rediculous, however it would make sense. The darned things weigh several tons I'm sure.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

More than several mate, considering they are bigger than todays tanks, and although they will be made of lighter compounds, they would still be very heavy. I can't guess, but I'm sure it would be over 50 tons.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Yea, was trying not to get into specifics, still pretty darned big and no place for anything to be sitting (except maybe a Baneblade/bigger tank). I don't care how big bad and tough your critters are they're going to go splat if that thing lands on them.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LukeValantine said:


> Lol this seems like something the angry marines would do.


I can definitely imagine them just dropping land raiders on peoples faces, they don't even need people in them


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Galahad said:


> But someday...someday I will DS a crusader full of Death Company onto the board, just once, just for shits and giggles.



Nah, you're thinking SMALL! A Crusader full of Space Hulk Terminators! Now THAT'S SCAAAREY!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Nah.

A LR full of Death Company would ruin whatever it came across, tbh. Death Co are ridiculously beast.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Nah.
> 
> A LR full of Death Company would ruin whatever it came across, tbh. Death Co are ridiculously beast.


Death Co in a land raider would be beast... I remember my first time when I sent a Tactical Squad and a Razorback to deal with 3 of them... rest in pieces squad.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I think that is why the new codex does not list a LR as a heavy support - and lists it only as a dedicated transport for a command or terminator squad - so you can't just spam the whole battlefield with Death Co in LR'ders. Otherwise, you could just shit on your enemy with troops that are fearless, relentless, feel no pain, fleet, etc etc...

They have more, but I forget what... It's a ridiculous amount of beast, anyway...

Terminators are hard enough.

Don't shit on your opponent by putting Death Co in there


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

They may be troops, but they can't score. You'd have to either take some scoring troops or rely on destroying your opponent entirely. Which is always a fun tactic!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes, exactly!

It's pretty much the only reason why the Death Co are not over powered - they don't score.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think that is why the new codex does not list a LR as a heavy support - and lists it only as a dedicated transport for a command or terminator squad - so you can't just spam the whole battlefield with Death Co in LR'ders. Otherwise, you could just shit on your enemy with troops that are fearless, relentless, feel no pain, fleet, etc etc...


Actually they;re dedicated transports for anyone.

Every squad with a transport option simply says "May take any dedicated transport"
Raiders are listed under dedicated transports.

The only units with transport restrictions are termies (who may only have pods and raiders) and dreads (who can only have pods)

So if you want to blow a ton of points you can spam land raiders and DC.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Yes, exactly!
> 
> It's pretty much the only reason why the Death Co are not over powered - they don't score.


oh dear, the one of many units that would be completely wasted sitting on an objective the entire game doesn't score, what a bummer.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> oh dear, the one of many units that would be completely wasted sitting on an objective the entire game doesn't score, what a bummer.


What you say is true - but they are a troop choice.

If you need to use troops choices to secure objectives, and you have taken DC, then you have limited how many objectives you may be able to claim.

It is certainly worth considering, seeing as they are an awesome unit. There has to be SOME drawback to using them.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I think the main reason DC aren't overpowered s because they cost a fucking fortune to field...though they are a lot cheaper if you transport them rather than JP them

Using up a troop choice isn't a big deal since most people don't use all their troops choices anyway. Chances are you'd have to take less troops just to afford to field them anyway. Except in the biggests lists, the loss of a single troops slot isn't likely to be a major detriment.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I don't plan on jump packing mine. I dunno why. I just like the idea of them being transported.

I want to use the jump packs to make a bigger VgV squad.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I built mine with magnetic packs for a reason. (though now I may buy somesang guard just to use their packs...)

If I field a DC it will likely be transported if for no other reason than it costs FIFTEEN fucking points per model to have them fly.

The only hitch with transporting them though is you cannot have them with lemmy if you have your DC transported (unless they use a stormraven) since Lemmy's JP is no longer optional. You can't transport jump troops in a rhino or raider and since lemmy's not an IC you can't leave him out and just have him follow along

You can still give them a chaplain, but no death mask.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

What benefit does the death mask have?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

When they assault the enemy makes a LD check.If they fail they fight at WS1 for the first phase of the assault. So your DC is hitting on 3+ and getting hit in return on 5+, and they reroll any misses and failed wounds that phase too. It's not a game winner, but it's a nice little bonus.

Plus lemmy has a high initiative and is a member of the DC with FNP and FC. He also hulks out if you wound him.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Death mask is sick.

I want.


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## Shivv_Vitrell (May 10, 2010)

OceanofBlood said:


> Upon checking the new blood angels codex, LandRaiders can Deep Strike? Thoughts? WHY?! Lets just ma
> ke everything Deep Strike then why not? wat the EFF!


I think I can legitimatly say that I no longer want to ever fight them again... I really can't do anything else besides laugh at the thought of someone deepstriking a landraider into the middle of a melee crowd just to give them a good boot to the rear.


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