# dwarf /lizardmen question



## EwokDwf (Apr 13, 2011)

ok here is my question how come dwarfs dont have anything big like the stegadon, or dragons, or a giant , or the steamtank{witch in my opinion should be the dwarfs}

yes they have the cannon and helicopter but its not big like all the new giant creatures coming out for the other armys


also 
how come lizardmen dont have dragons or hydras. i mean in my opinion if anyone should have them it should be the lizardmen not the elfs or vampire counts or breatonia or anyone


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

because they are ancient... from the days when GW thought they were a miniature company selling models you could actually fit in a miniatures case and manage to transport around for games... wow that seems like so long ago...

There aren't any dragons in Lustria and hydras are a by-product of the winds of magic being drawn towards the portal on Ulthaun... so that's why there are none in a Lizardmen army. However, they do have other cool things, best of which would be the Quezacotl, which is basically a huge magical bird: imagine a good Lord of Change that could actually rip your head off as well as casting uber-powerful spells.


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## Raizer Sabre (Nov 8, 2010)

if only they had rules and minis for the quetzacotl...and the thunder lizard for that matter, that'd be one huge model. imagine a war beast that could trample entire cities with impunity lol.

another reason why lizardmen don't have dragons is probably because lizardmen and all their war beasts (razordons, salamanders, terradons, stegadons, carnosaurs and cold ones) are all basically dinosaurs. dragons have no resemblance to dinosaurs and would be a bit weird to try and make it so...as cool as a draconic dino would be lol


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## EwokDwf (Apr 13, 2011)

i cant understand that but will lizardmen ever get something like a dragon or a giant monstrous creature like the ones listed above or in the lore


also will dwarfs ever get any giant machine or creature?


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

There are rumblings that Dwarfs might get some steam-punk kind of contraptions but that is all highly speculative. One of the far-fetched speculations is for monstrous infantry type "walkers".

As for the dragon thing - I do believe that dragons were around before the Old Ones. They are a highly magical and sentient race all unto themselves. If a character is riding a dragon, it's not because he is master over it, it's because the dragon has allowed him to tag along.


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## BozlyLittle (Jul 3, 2011)

Because when was the last time you saw a movie where a dwarf is flying a dragon, stegadon or has a giant.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Lizardmen will be getting a pretty big miniture sometime.

In the Monstrous Arcanum book, they have the rules and lore for the Dread Saurian, which is basically the Warhammer version of a Spinosaurus. While the Carnosaur is supposed to be the "T-Rex" of the game, it was around before Spinosaurus was discovered to be bigger than a T-Rex... So, they created one to fit in with the Lizardmen. The funny thing is, neither the Carnosaurus or the Dread Saurian have the Large Target rule.... Which is pretty useful for avoiding getting sniped. But when the Dread Saurian has an upgrade list that'll blown your mind (How about making it Ethereal? Boosting it up T8 for reduce movement speed? Giving it impact hits?). While it isn't Exhalted Vermin Lord good, it's still nifty. Below is a scan of what it's artwork is like in the book (Not my scan, providing as point of reference...)










The quetzacotl are based off the Aztec/Mayan quetzalcoatl. Which pretty much is the closest you'll get to a dragon in Lustria.



















Rules wise, it'll probably be a mount for Skink Priests (according to lore) and will prob be a Lv.1-2 Wizard of Life Lore. If you look in the latest Lizardmen codex, you can see artwork of them on some of the pages... At least 2 pages show them in clear view...


Onto the Dwarfs, they have pretty cool HQ's.. Thorek Ironbrow and High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer look cool. But to be blunt, they are not a popular army, just like the Lizardmen. It's all HE, Empire, Orcs, Skaven and so on... So you will have to wait for an upgrade. Lizardmen are prob lowest on the update list. Dwarves will probably get some big, multipart, multioption, gun. The reason the Steam Tank is Empire is because the Dwarves taught them how to make black powder weapons, Nuln then became brilliant at doing so, rich people wanted fancy weapons to show off, Steam Tank created. According to the lore only a few dozen exist....

So, no dragons for Lustria.... Dwarves will get updated eventually, but are not under or overpowered and are not super popular. Lizardmen will also be updated eventually, they are pretty unique and have so much lore and possibilities to choose from, that Hydras and Dragons are a bit boring  Just be glad you are not a Bretonian player.... GW are struggling to make a "big kit" for them (you know, every recent updated army gets a big monster/weapon, usually a kit that can be made into different things).


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## Turnip86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Neverending stoooooooooryyyyy. Nananaaaa nananaaaaaa nananaaaaaaaa

A dwarf titan construct kind of thing - kind of like WoW stone titans or the molten titans the Dark Iron Dwarves used would be pretty cool and make interesting models.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Turnip86 said:


> Neverending stoooooooooryyyyy. Nananaaaa nananaaaaaa nananaaaaaaaa
> 
> A dwarf titan construct kind of thing - kind of like WoW stone titans or the molten titans the Dark Iron Dwarves used would be pretty cool and make interesting models.


Never ending story? What's that in relation to?

There are loads of possibilities for Dwarves, I seem to remember reading about a type of cave dragon that gets into fights with Dwarves.... But they make specials collars for them that bind them, rune etched, so, I wouldn't be surprised if Dwarves get this dragon as a sort of Hydra type model. I'll look up the creature in MA.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Firstly, the rules are not the be all and end all of an army. If you want to have a dwarf riding a dragon, by all means, do so.

However, it is not 'tournament' legal, and will be hard to find those willing to play against with. Not at the same level, but I struggle to get games with my Emperor Carmine Dragon ridden by a Vampre Lord, regardless of trying to point out it costs the best part of 1500 points. Simply because it is not rules makes it hard for pick up and play games.

Fluffwise, the Dragons are considered to be Hoard stealers, Hold Breakers and Elgi Friends, which are good enough reasons to not ride ones, not to mention that the will of a dragon is harder to break than a typical dwarf can manage (after all it took the greatest elf mage ever to design a starmetal bridle to 'tame' the dragons to his will), while it is otherwise listed that many dragon and man/elf relationships are mutually beneficial, while others are typically those under Chaos Warlords who have the will of chaos backing them (Like orbaal vipergut).

However the Shard Dragons of the Monstrous Arcanum book lists them as having Gromril Scales, and Runic Bindings, granting them amazing Armour Saves, Ward Saves and Magic Resistance, suggesting that the Dwarfs lead them into battle like lesser races utilize chaos hounds or men at arms.

As tl the Lizardmen, the Dragons were thought to be around before the Old Ones came, and hence became the ideal of the Lizards - the Saurus, Kroxigor and Skinks being the Slanns favourite creations while lesser old one designed creature features were left to wander - resulting in the more bestial carnosaurs, dread saurians, thunder lizards and the stegadons.

As for other monsters, a coatl (a quetzlcoatl is a god, the coatl however is mentioned in lore, we have an artists impression, and a description of its abilities, dsting back and expanded upon from at least 6th edition lizardmen, to lustria campaign book and finally 7th edition lizardmen. They are messengers of the Old One Quetzl however (signified as purple, according 6th edition sacred spawnings), who is the god of magic, and can summon magical storms.

Throw into the mix the mention of sacred pit snakes/constrictors of sotek, to whom the red crested skinks sacrifice captured live skaven to (according to lustria),the dread saurian (who despite being 'spinosaurus of lustria' doesn't actually have a spiny sail from which it gets its name, although it can turn ethereal and become unbreakable at the same time - aside from carnosaur and the 2 stegadon variants, it actually has rules as well), and the thunder lizard there is plenty of scope still to come.

I however would love, and expect to see a dual monster kit come from Games Workshop when they redo Lizards, with a Dual Skink Riding Kit, as either a feathered coatl with skink priest or Pit Snake of Sotek, with a red crested skink (possibly Tehenhauin) as a ridden monster. Perhaps make it Hooded where it gets Poison and Terror or Constrictor where it can sacrifice its attacks for Heroic Killing Blow.

Coatl, grants rider flying, and can cast as an innate bound spell The Howler Wind and/or The Rain Lord from 6th and 7th Edition, as well as possibly boosts to heavens casting. Not to mention a Slann using it for telepathy for Empowered Amber Spear or similar to pierce a horde rank or monstrous infantry/cavalry from the side.

Thst is wishlisting, but all I know is that I simply want to see a return to a viable all skink army with more variety than what there is, Horned One Riders, Aforementioned Monsters (Lord level skinks?), and the like. As it stands, it is Skrox units, 3x Chameleons, Stegadons and Salamanders, without chameleons or sallies the list is poor.


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## Turnip86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Troublehalf said:


> Never ending story? What's that in relation to?


My post was edited by Tim/Steve, I guess to save space but I had quoted that last dragon pic from your post as it looks like Falgor from never ending story. Hence forcing that annoying song into everyone's heads.

Like it's been said you can pretty much invent units, both models and fluff-wise (as long as you can balance it for game use) and you'll be able to use them in friendly games but until GW plagiarise your ideas you wont be able to use them competitively


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Ah. I see!

Thing is, Lustria is so easy to do... Rainforest has huge amount of biodiversity, plus the Badlands to the South. Dwarfs are limited to cool inventions. Brettonians are are problem, had a discussion with an old GW manager friend of mine, who said that lore wise, they are pretty much locked. Since they are based on Medieval France, they have to go there for inspiration, cannons cannot be used due to them being in Empire.... They already have the Trebuchet.... And Medieval weaponry, at least siege weapony, was limited to: battering rams, catapult, trebuchet, ballista, siege towers. Perhaps a giant ballista? Firing massive lances or something.... With an option to build a catapult of some sort.... I swear that's the only limiting factor to a Brettonian update (bar it's popularity) I'd love for them to be done, as I love their design... But alas, they are French, and as an Englishman I am duty bound to hate them!  (joke). Wood Elf players have probably given up waiting for an update, they have so much potential.... I always said you could use the Treewoman (Or Treeman) model from UltraForge to represent the "Spirit of the Wood" - Which is mentioned fighting Chaos incursions in their forests a few times.








For the woman.








For the man.

Think the woman would be much nicer. Still, GW is busy with 40k atm. Still got Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar to update (with first 3 rumoured to be soon, won't even mention SoB.... cry).


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

It's called the Shard Dragon, Dwarfs were the first to bind them in runic collars.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The Spirit in the Woods is a Zoat, not a Treeman - from "The Hour of Shadows".

And as for Bretonnia, they have a lot to branch out in - Montfort Dismounted Knights, Royal Pegasus/Hippogryph Dual kits, Carrocio-esque Standard/Reliquae Dual Kit, and some of the older characters - the female Knight Hero who turned back the Chaos Invasion...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Turnip86 said:


> My post was edited by Tim/Steve, I guess to save space but I had quoted that last dragon pic from your post as it looks like Falgor from never ending story. Hence forcing that annoying song into everyone's heads.


Yeah, I figured being directly below it you didn't need the quote taking up lots of extra space... apparently I was wrong


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Vaz said:


> The Spirit in the Woods is a Zoat, not a Treeman - from "The Hour of Shadows".
> 
> And as for Bretonnia, they have a lot to branch out in - Montfort Dismounted Knights, Royal Pegasus/Hippogryph Dual kits, Carrocio-esque Standard/Reliquae Dual Kit, and some of the older characters - the female Knight Hero who turned back the Chaos Invasion...


It's not so much the units such as Knights and so on, it's a 'big kit' which is the problem. Skaven got their siege weapons, Ogres got Thundertusks and the two cannons. Orks got the spider. Empire got a re-done Deathclaw and the altar weapons.

So, unless one of those you listed is huge... I think that's the main problem, perhaps it'll will be solved with the release of many different models.

On the Spirit of the Woods, thanks for the information, I only read it in the WHFB 8th Edition under WE.... Shame, but, it's still possible


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hippogryph/Beaquis/Royal Pegasus kit.

Caroccio/Reliaque, bigger is awesomer, put it on a chariot base and watch it rock (obviously with rules to match). The trebuchet is already big, possibly give it an alternate mode of fire, burning pitch/barrels of bordelaux wine launched at the enemy. After all, it was a typical siege weapon. Or possibly some form of Bombard, captured from the Arabyans amd reused, or gifted by engineers to less traditionalist and more contempory monfort/gisoreux dukes looking for something more powerful than their neighbours. Or even a ribault or other peasantry counters to knights (although that is reasonably small and more akin to a typical organ gun/helblaster - basically fires a ton of arrows iron pellets etc like a medieval blunderbuss).

Caroccio standard is essentially a war altar, but it has a great fuck off flag on top. Possibly take the damsel in distress idea ott, and actually have it as either a bsb or damsel 'mount' (damsel is in actuality chained to the top) in that it gives you an 18" hold your ground, or grants the army hatred and frenzy when the damsel gets cherry picked by a passing wyvern.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds cool. I love the models involved in Brets, but I wish you could upgrade Men-At-Arms to have better equipment.... Cause in such times, swords were uncommon, most people used spears/clubs/axes due to the ease of making them, swords were harder to make... But being able to equip Men-At-Arms with full-plate or something for some cost would be cool.

Since I'm not familiar with the lore of Bret, I don't really know what can be used. Perhaps the trebuchet gets to throw, as you said, burning barrels, that land, do damage and make the next movement phase in dangerous + difficult terrain. I suppose you could give them early firearms..... 

If I ever finished my Lizardmen army, my next one was a Dark Elf one... Then an Orc, then an Wood Elf... I love shooty armies and WE are one of the best. Hopefully they'll be buffed eventually, be a bit like Tau in 40k... Good at range, not that good at melee.


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