# Can regular humans have similar/extra organs to a space marine?



## The Final Frontier (Oct 15, 2011)

This happened just yesterday when I was at my GW store, I was thinking of buying a centurian squad and making a captain/force commander with centurian armor. As I was browsing around like a little kid like we all do in there was a game going on. 

One guy was playing chaos SM and the other was playing IG with Augumentations. Now normally I'd be 'cool there's bound to be regiments of IG that been augmented with drugs, viruses or genetics' but then the IG player said his Shock Troopers? (IG elite troops) were augmented similar(NOT THE SAME AS A SM) to a SM like having an extra heart and other organs the SM have but far less efficient then the SM organs. This excluded the black carparse I believe although he didn't mention it. Of course am standing they'd like an idiot scratching my head 'whaa? I dont think that's possible Is it?'

I wasn't going to get in that situation. My question is the title lol.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You can if you are a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus I guess.

Her should have called his troops Skitarii, and I must say you stumble over a lot of people with special interpretation of fluff.

What next? A hockey-themed Space Marine-chapter?


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

In the day and age of 40K, I can see extra organs put in standard humans. They are given chem mixes that make them go into a rage (like an Eversor assassin). Look at the Mechanicus. They augment their body to become more machine like. They don't start out as all advanced, but gradually work their way up. I can't say that I've read any where that extra organs were implanted, but I can't see why the technology is not there.
As for that guys IG army, if it's his fluff for his own army, I'm perfectly fine with that. However, if he is doing it and boosting the stats of his IG troopers, then that's a huge no go. So fluff wise, yes. Game effecting wise, no.

Edit: I would love to see a hockey themed army. Especially a Detroit Redwings one!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Remember that the Primarchs, and by extension, the Space Marines, were made (supposedly) with the help of Chaos. I can imagine some of the crazier organs, like the Omophagea, are probably outside the realms of current 40k technology. 

Tossing in an extra heart or reinforcing their bones is definitely possible.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> Remember that the Primarchs, and by extension, the Space Marines, were made (supposedly) with the help of Chaos.


Source?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Here's the thing: Space Marines, and their extra organs make no damn sense. At all. Considering this, I see no reason why a human couldn't have extra organs in the 40k universe.



Beaviz81 said:


> Source?


Pretty widely accepted fluff that's been stated on more than one occasion in the heresy books, and probably other places.

EDIT: Well, it's never been said by anyone on the imperial side or by a neutral party, but it's been hinted at with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.


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## The Final Frontier (Oct 15, 2011)

I think he used inferior like organs that worked like the SM organs other then the black carparse. From a secondary heart, reinforced bones, Muscle growth, can enter hibernation for a time, learn by eating etc. I just can't grasp how humans can basically have the same organs as SM just in a far less efficient form. If they add this? Why in the hell is this not standard for all IG? Can't be that expensive compared to making warships that are hive cities with massive guns.

On a side, people at my GW Store love making interesting or in this site tongue, Hersey type armies from SM allied with the Tau(Seriously WTF) to Slannesh Deamonettes serving Knorne. Normally I don't think it's a big deal but some of those that come through that door, sometimes your jaw will just drop and go WTF?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The Final Frontier said:


> I think he used inferior like organs that worked like the SM organs other then the black carparse. From a secondary heart, reinforced bones, Muscle growth, can enter hibernation for a time, learn by eating etc. I just can't grasp how humans can basically have the same organs as SM just in a far less efficient form. If they add this? Why in the hell is this not standard for all IG? Can't be that expensive compared to making warships that are hive cities with massive guns.


Ugh….. because most of those things are impossible? It's best not to put too much thought into why or how stuff works in 40k. 

Also, the explanation the dude provides, the less efficient thing? Yeah, that's called shitty story telling. Not much else to it.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Final Frontier said:


> I think he used inferior like organs that worked like the SM organs other then the black carparse. From a secondary heart, reinforced bones, Muscle growth, can enter hibernation for a time, learn by eating etc. I just can't grasp how humans can basically have the same organs as SM just in a far less efficient form. If they add this? Why in the hell is this not standard for all IG? Can't be that expensive compared to making warships that are hive cities with massive guns.



They can't be the same as the Astartes organs, those require gene-seed and the full implantation process. With Space Marines it's all or nothing. 

That said there are still plenty of other augmentations available to members of the Imperium, one thing Imperial science is pretty good at bio tech. So you have enhancing drug cocktails, juvant treatments, bionics, chemical manipulation etc. I could see implanted organs, mechanical or organic, being among these augmentations. They wouldn't however be the same as the Astarte's version, nor work as well. 

As to why its not stand its because of scale and logistics. There are billions, perhaps trillions of gaurdsmen. It's simply not possible to augment them all, or even a significant percentage. Remember the guard are recruited from a variety of techbases and the only standard piece of equipment is the lasgun. There would only be a limited number of worlds in the imperium capable of augmenting soldiers like this and its just not practical to ship eery regiment you raise across the galaxy to get augmented. It's more cost effective for the Imperium to raise x-billion soldiers and hurl them into the meat grinder.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Here's the thing: Space Marines, and their extra organs make no damn sense. At all. Considering this, I see no reason why a human couldn't have extra organs in the 40k universe.


Having fail-safes/backup organs which also in conjunction produce more efficient results = makes no sense?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Here's the thing: Space Marines, and their extra organs make no damn sense. At all. Considering this, I see no reason why a human couldn't have extra organs in the 40k universe.
> 
> 
> Pretty widely accepted fluff that's been stated on more than one occasion in the heresy books, and probably other places.
> ...


The source, AKA where it is mentioned would be nice.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> The source, AKA where it is mentioned would be nice.


In _False Gods_ when Horus is shown the scattering he sees spells/prayers written on the primarchs' incubation pods. It is mentioned a couple of times in _The First Heretic_ if I recall correctly as well. It's also hinted at in _A Thousand Sons_ with regards to the Emperor and his dealings with the chaos gods. In _Deliverance Lost_ when the Emperor shares the secrets of the primarchs with Corax he censors a big part, which hints that he was hiding a part of their creation. Might also be mentions of it in _Aurelian_, though it has been ages since I read that novella, so I might be mistaken. And there are other hints dropped throughout the series, but I am not gonna search through all the novels right now to check for all of them. Basically, it is a continuous theme throughout the HH series that the primarchs were created with the help of chaos.

Edit: Sorry, got that backwards. It was Argel Tal, during _The First Heretic_ I think who saw the prayers on the pods. When Horus was taken back to the scattering he was told out and out that the Emperor struck a bargain with chaos for the power to make the primarchs. But the point stands, there are continuously hints dropped in various novels that some kind of bargain was struck between the Emperor and chaos in order for the primarchs to be created. Sadly, only the Emperor on the Imperial side can genuinely confirm this, and he off course wouldn't actually admit to making deals with beings he, for centuries, tried to deny existed.


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## The Final Frontier (Oct 15, 2011)

That's what I thought as much. I didn't think organs could be made like SM that function in a similar fashion.

Do they ever fully explain anything in the Warhammer 40,000K Universe?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The Final Frontier said:


> I think he used inferior like organs that worked like the SM organs other then the black carparse. From a secondary heart, reinforced bones, Muscle growth, can enter hibernation for a time, learn by eating etc. I just can't grasp how humans can basically have the same organs as SM just in a far less efficient form. If they add this? Why in the hell is this not standard for all IG? Can't be that expensive compared to making warships that are hive cities with massive guns.


Er...having some back ups are ok, but I would ask him to tone down on the number. If they are like krogan, 2 pairs of everything, then even by 40k standards that's farfetched.



The Final Frontier said:


> That's what I thought as much. I didn't think organs could be made like SM that function in a similar fashion.
> 
> Do they ever fully explain anything in the Warhammer 40,000K Universe?


We are talking about scifi books....do they ever fully explain anything?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Having fail-safes/backup organs which also in conjunction produce more efficient results = makes no sense?


Makes no sense as in space marines are a work of fiction and totally fuckin' impossible. Having a second heart would be cool and all for an average human, at least during period of stress, but shoving an extra heart in a person and getting it to work would be a bit harder than using superglue and staples.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> ...are a work of fiction and totally fuckin' impossible.


It's not that long ago that the same was said of landing on the moon, heart transplants, laser beams and the internet were considered the same.

Why, oh why must people insist on applying real world principles on a fictional universe?

OT, just look at what the SWs did to Hawser in Prospero Burns. Tore him down and rebuilt him from scratch, rewinding his body about 30 or 40 years and strengthening his skeleton, musculature and brain. Giving someone an extra organ is a piece of piss compared to that.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Actually I'm in support of Fist there. Who knows we can all have multiple livers in fifty years from now.

I don't mind mixing reality with fiction, but there must be some foresight.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

When you discover the warp and chaos (fundamental components for the creation of the primarchs and, through them, marines) you come tell me and we'll get to making us some spass mahreens. Space marines are nonsense because their creation depends upon space voodoo, not because a second heart is or is not possible.

That being said, one of the main points of one of my previous points was that there wasn't any point in worrying about the science behind this stuff.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well according to The Universe that might exist. I know it's speculative, but it's cutting edge science. I mean it's on Discovery Channel for a reason. Then again I'm a fanboi of that and I have even been stopped from partying by them running a marathon of episodes with a mate. Everything is in flux right now, and remember weare living in the golden age of technology. In the 90's cell-phones weighed kilograms and could only be utilized on top of mountains, now they are commonplace.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

locustgate said:


> We are talking about scifi books....do they ever fully explain anything?


No, it's a very specific story telling technique. The more you explain something, the less you can expand on, or change it later. So by fixing things, you restrict yourself later. That means that the last thing you want to do is fully explain.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Well Kor Phaeron, Luther, and a bunch of other prominent figures in the Legions were humans with a couple of extra organs thrown in to make them into pseudo-Astartes, and they did well enough for themselves. I don't see why there couldn't be a distant Mechanicus outpost or something that still has the tech to do it in 40k.


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## The Final Frontier (Oct 15, 2011)

Excuse my language but what the hell is a pseudo-Astartes?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Bad ass humans with shinny, spinny chrome rims. Basically humans who went through intense augmentation processes that gave them physical abilities comparable to those of full marines. They were usually very important people who were to old to undergo the same process that marines did.


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## The Final Frontier (Oct 15, 2011)

What's the process on making them? I dbout IG player was going for the pseudo-Astartes process.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The Final Frontier said:


> What's the process on making them? I dbout IG player was going for the pseudo-Astartes process.


No clue, but it was reserved for the best of the best and only when needed, so even if they could do it in M41, they wouldn't be doing it for anyone short of a saint or something similar.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

"A few companies of the Lostock 23rd were modified by the techpriests to fight in this hellish war zone, incorporating many organs and drug secreting glands that enabled them to survive unprotected, as well as boosting their combat abilities and aggressiveness."

From the entry for Sgt Stone, _Inquisitor_ rule book, page 111.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> No clue, but it was reserved for the best of the best and only when needed, so even if they could do it in M41, they wouldn't be doing it for anyone short of a saint or something similar.


Thank you gen.ahab. I think from the OP, the IG wouldnt' have the resources wasted on them. Flesh stock is cheap, technology is expensive in knowledge and resources. Just throw another million or two IG at the problem, but save the fancy implants/armor/weapons for the Astares.

From a logistics standpoint, considering how the Imperium uses the IG in battle, all those implants would likely only get them a couple more days life in the meatgrinder. As well, considering these aren't PDF, all those implants and resources are only going to be sent offworld. I think a planetary economy and the Imperial Army would be more concerned with generating additional IG Regiments than overjuicing what is there.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Thank you gen.ahab. I think from the OP, the IG wouldnt' have the resources wasted on them. Flesh stock is cheap, technology is expensive in knowledge and resources. Just throw another million or two IG at the problem, but save the fancy implants/armor/weapons for the Astares.


See my previous post. If the situation warrants it IG units will get the upgrades. It's also been shown that the IG have messed with breeding genetic super soldiers, as seen in the Last Chancers books. I'm sure that would be a huge investment in time and resources, but they did it any way.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> See my previous post. If the situation warrants it IG units will get the upgrades. It's also been shown that the IG have messed with breeding genetic super soldiers, as seen in the Last Chancers books. I'm sure that would be a huge investment in time and resources, but they did it any way.


Couple of things. 

The Gland War Veterans are/were 1 regiment, with a few companies, and they did not have as much modification as the person's fluff, they said double/sm(low grade) organs everywhere. The Gland Vets also only had modifications to allow them to not keel over when they went outside the factory complexes.

The Afriel Strain were low numbers (500 from Mach), they couldn't make up a regiment.

EDIT: Doing a bit more reading there are 'a few regiments of gland war veterans can be found through out the galaxy'


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

They had more than just lung modifications, they also had modifications that boosted aggression and combat skills. Presumably that would mean adrenal system and mental and reflexive acuity upgrades, beyond just stim injectors.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Thing is we are gaining on the Sci Fi side now. We have metals that can actually bond with bone so that it becomes an integral part of the human body. I know because I have some implanted in myself, and would not let the Doctor do it until he explained to me how it would not just rip out if I got hit again.

Stem cell research has grown by leaps and bounds, as well as cloning. This does not equate to a Space Marine, but if you took Jules Verne while he was alive and let him witness these things he would have been amazed.

I agree that it is far fetched and some of it is poorly thought out ( a fused rib cage would not work ) but I see in the future that things will change. Hell, look at just 50 years ago. If you would have told a doctor " What I want you to do is put a drop of fluid in my eyes and then set your phaser to stun and blast my eyeball with it, and when you are done I will have near perfect vision! " you would have been on your way to the mental ward ... because that shit is just crazy. (Thank GOD I actually have good vision and it is the wife that wants Lasic Surgery done, that shit scares the fuck out of me)


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Thing is we are gaining on the Sci Fi side now. We have metals that can actually bond with bone so that it becomes an integral part of the human body. I know because I have some implanted in myself, and would not let the Doctor do it until he explained to me how it would not just rip out if I got hit again.
> 
> Stem cell research has grown by leaps and bounds, as well as cloning. This does not equate to a Space Marine, but if you took Jules Verne while he was alive and let him witness these things he would have been amazed.
> 
> I agree that it is far fetched and some of it is poorly thought out ( a fused rib cage would not work ) but I see in the future that things will change. Hell, look at just 50 years ago. If you would have told a doctor " What I want you to do is put a drop of fluid in my eyes and then set your phaser to stun and blast my eyeball with it, and when you are done I will have near perfect vision! " you would have been on your way to the mental ward ... because that shit is just crazy. (Thank GOD I actually have good vision and it is the wife that wants Lasic Surgery done, that shit scares the fuck out of me)


Actually what they probably would say is 'What the hell is a phaser?' Star Trek didn't come out till 1967, 50yrs ago would be 1964.


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