# The Endgame



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It's been a loong time since one of these threads, but I feel that with the evolution of the fluff over these past few editions, it might be worth a re-visit. 

Essentially, the question is who wins 40k? Which race is the last standing? 

I ask this again now because of the changes we've experienced, in a few races moreso than most, but still. 


The necrons and c'tan were once major contenders for this position. However, as we all know they are no longer a united faction. There is now a chance that they will like the orks devolve into a semi-permanently feuding group of empires too busy bickering to ever truly unite and re-take the galaxy. The c'tan however are a different matter. Every shard the necrons lose is a shard freed, implying that eventually the c'tan will be whole again. Could they still pose a threat on their own? Keeping in mind we have no idea how much they can interact with other races without their necron forged bodies, but the necrons seem to fear this outcome greatly, so who really knows? 

The tyranids remain a prominent threat, however one tidbit of fluff has changed. Previously we had no idea the numbers of the remaining Hive Fleets yet to enter our galaxy. Essentially, we still don't. But the Silent King of the necrons had spent a great deal of time in the void between, and returned because he encountered the tyranids and planned to lead his people against them. We don't know how much of their forces he saw, but we know that he considers their defeat entirely possible. He believes that his forces united could defeat them, which seems to imply that a galaxy's worth of military forces do indeed stand a chance of defeating the tyranids in whole, provided they can form a cohesive retaliation. 

Chaos. For the most part these guys remain the same threat. Except... 

Eldar. I noticed there seems to be less emphasis on the doom factor in the new eldar codex. I haven't read it right through, but I did get the impression that Ynnead has gone from a _might happen_ sort of deal to an _almost certainly will happen_. So _*if*_ a Chaos God truly can be killed, then what does that mean for the aftermath? A new eldar god but no eldar, could that mean some sort of regenesis of the eldar race?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not sure whether my reply belongs here or in a new thread but I enjoyed reading your post so much I'll put it here and respond to you.

I see the final battle being between the Necrons and the Tyranids as these two factions have the combo of technology, firepower and relative unity.

My question is what happens to the gods of Chaos without humanity to support them? Three of the four Chaos gods seem to be self defeating in that they need humanity's emotions to support them but by their natures they will destroy humanity if they control it. 

If humanity is destroyed, whether by Necrons, Tyranids or by something else, will they be able to continue in their present form or will they wither and slowly starve as per the scenario presented in Legion. 

Whether Slaanesh is destroyed by humanity's downfall or if it can still exist on the scraps of emotions provided by the few Eldar/Dark Eldar remaining I have no idea.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Necrons in the end. Nids may come along and destroy all biological life in the galaxy, but then they head off looking for the next meal. That leaves the last man standing being the Necrons, whether they come together to fight them,or just squabble between themselves while the nids eat lunch.

If all life disappears, Chaos goes with it, as there is nothing to worship them.

Then again, what could a returning primarch do for the Imperium?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

In Valedor, 









an eldar farseer gets killed and his soul gets released to the warp – just before Slaanesh munches him down like a dry twix, he witnesses the future and his soul ‘sparkles with joy’. Then Slaanesh noms him.

It seems much more like a certainty for ynnead to arise – it’s forseen than Iyanna Arienel will find the last of the tears of Morai Heg and this will allow Ynnead to rise. The eldar gods that were eaten by Slaanesh still exist within slaanesh and Ynnead will be able to free them. 

And the Rhana Dhandra is happening now.



So yeah, the eldar future isn’t as weepy as it was…


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I'm still going for a happy sort of ending for man, it will get real bad first but in the end somehow the big E is renewed, the chaos gods are shattered and are no longer an existential threat


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

If we say that the Tyranids consume everything in the Galaxy and move on, then Wouldn't the Necrons go to sleep again? 

Then those has been hiding out in the eye of terror and the webway still exist? DE and the Chaos Legions? 

Then again, If both Terra and Cadia are list to the Tyranids, Wouldn't the Eye engulf the whole galaxy? Now that couldnt be good for Tyranids and Necrons alike. I bet my balls on The Chaos legions living it out in a galaxy spaning Eye of terror in the end.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@Serpion: I've just scanned through the new Eldar codex now, and I can't find any reference to Y'nnead apart from exactly what was already stated in previous codicies. Any specific references?

I'm not too sure about the optimistic take on the Eldar. The latest codex is still littered with pessimistic statements such as "The Eldar are doomed and they know it well". Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Rhana Dandra was specifically stated to be a victory for Chaos and the ending of reality... not a victory for the Eldar or the Forces of Order. 



Moriouce said:


> If we say that the Tyranids consume everything in the Galaxy and move on, then Wouldn't the Necrons go to sleep again?


According to their older lore yes, but probably not according to their most recent lore. The reason they went to sleep in 3rd edition was because there was no sustainable food source for the C'tan. The reason they went to sleep in 5th edition was because after the rebellion against the C'tan the Necrons weren't powerful enough to challenge the Eldar. 



Moriouce said:


> Then again, If both Terra and Cadia are list to the Tyranids, Wouldn't the Eye engulf the whole galaxy? Now that couldnt be good for Tyranids and Necrons alike. I bet my balls on The Chaos legions living it out in a galaxy spaning Eye of terror in the end.


Yes. In the setting, we are the midst of the 13th Black Crusade. Without Cadia (and thus the pylons) nothing is restricting the Eye of Terror from expanding. The extreme amount of bloodshed is attracting daemons in their billions, and Abaddon has forged pacts with the Daemon Primarchs for their support. 

Chaos is, and always has been, the greatest threat to the 40k galaxy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'm not too sure about the optimistic take on the Eldar. The latest codex is still littered with pessimistic statements such as "The Eldar are doomed and they know it well". Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Rhana Dandra was specifically stated to be a victory for Chaos and the ending of reality... not a victory for the Eldar or the Forces of Order.


According to Lexi, Rhana Dandra will end reality and the immaterium so I don't see how it's a victory for Chaos.

"_Rhana Dandra is the Eldar name for the final great battle with Chaos. It is written about in the Asuryata which predicts the destruction of the Eldar and their remaining gods. Another section states that the battle will destroy both the materium and immaterium._"



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> According to their older lore yes, but probably not according to their most recent lore. The reason they went to sleep in 3rd edition was because there was no sustainable food source for the C'tan. The reason they went to sleep in 5th edition was because after the rebellion against the C'tan the Necrons weren't powerful enough to challenge the Eldar.


Pretty dumb hibernating when your enemies are apparently stronger than you and when they have displayed the ability to detect tomb worlds.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought it was open-ended.

Lets see the alternatives. The Emperor ascents to become a true god. Imperial victory.

The Emperor dies the warp swallows everything. Chaos victory.

The Nids eats up everything. Tyranid victory.

The Crons fully awake. Necron victory.

The Orks manage to infest everything. Ork victory.

The Dark Eldar manage to kidnap everything. Pyrrhic Dark Eldar victory.

The Eldar all die and summon their god of death (not actually sure if all Dark eldars must die as well). Ehm I think pyrrhic ain't a strong enough word for this kind of victory.

Tau win through superior technology. Tau victory.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Necrons in the end. Nids may come along and destroy all biological life in the galaxy, but then they head off looking for the next meal. That leaves the last man standing being the Necrons, whether they come together to fight them,or just squabble between themselves while the nids eat lunch.


The necrons would fight. Maybe not all of them, but there are factions among their number who desire a return to life, and for that they need suitable life forms capable of containing their intellect. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> Then again, what could a returning primarch do for the Imperium?


Remarkably little in the grand scheme. While many Space Marines would undoubtedly welcome his return, there are factions within the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition who may well take issue with this. Not to mention the High Lords, who may be reluctant to relinquish their seat of power. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> @Serpion: I've just scanned through the new Eldar codex now, and I can't find any reference to Y'nnead apart from exactly what was already stated in previous codicies. Any specific references?


No specific references. I don't own the codex so don't have it with me, but that was the impression I got from skimming through the fluff. If I can get a better look, I'll get back to you.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The only Primarch that could really change anything is Robute Gulliman if he healed up and even he could end up branded as a heretic and nuked like a dog or daemon.

Lets play with which returned. 

Leman Russ: A known rebel, likely marked for extermination.

The Lion: Ehm he would probably have a fatal heart-attack seeing what his sosns had descended into if not he would likely slaughtered his sons for what they had become I hope. If not just exterminate.

Corax: Well he is GW's version of Doug Wilson, he mortgaged his legion's future for results today. Do the IOM need that? I'd say nay. Exterminate.

The Khan: Not as rebellious as Russ, but still would be snuffed out.

Ferrus: Yes he is supposed to be dead, I'm just playing the stupid what if-scenario. Ehm he would spend the rest of his life arguing pointlessly with the AdMech and his legion.

Dorn: Again I'm playing the what if-game even though I think it's stupid and pointless but idiots likes that game. The only one of the Primarches I think could shape the IOM back into shape, unfortunately exterminated faster than you can say the word.

Guilliman: Already mentioned.

Sanguinus: What the fuck am I doing resurrecting him? Well he would be put down for being a clone most likely chaos-influenced. Again I'm just being open-ended.

That Salamander-guy: Well Teal'c as a Primarch. Unfortunately would have as much influence as Teal'c in the Stargate verse.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What if Loyal Konrad Curze comes back, who was secretly working for the emperor throughout the horus heresy?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Put down as a heretic as he can't be trusted.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Remarkably little in the grand scheme. While many Space Marines would undoubtedly welcome his return, there are factions within the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition who may well take issue with this. Not to mention the High Lords, who may be reluctant to relinquish their seat of power.


That may be true if he turned up at the gates of Terra, but if he arrived on Macragge or Fenris, and rallied all the SM chapters to his banner, there wouldn't be a whole lot any of the =I=, High Lords or Eccslesiarchy could do about it. I do think most chapters would answer the call of a primarch, whether he was their gene father or not. A million marines would give him a lot of sway. 

But that's all dealing in a big IF. I don't think the Imperium will go down without something huge and dramatic happening first, be it the return of a primarch, the failure of the Golden Throne and Astronomicon, or another civil war. Or all three.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Lux said:


> Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?


I'm presuming this is brought up in Unremembered Empire? Just a guess as I haven't got to that one yet


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The Space Marines today are not united under one banner, and even if they have so many divergent beliefs amongst the UM-traditions alone that I would be surprised if half of them didn't want to kill Guilliman as the diversion of force is both the IOM greatest strength and weakness.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> The Space Marines today are not united under one banner


You can say that again!
I'd hate to be the poor Adept given the task of mapping out which Chapters are friends today and who aren't :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> According to Lexi, Rhana Dandra will end reality and the immaterium so I don't see how it's a victory for Chaos.
> 
> "_Rhana Dandra is the Eldar name for the final great battle with Chaos. It is written about in the Asuryata which predicts the destruction of the Eldar and their remaining gods. Another section states that the battle will destroy both the materium and immaterium._"


Well, we're working with a very vague ancient prophecy, so nothing is certain. The common theme amongst all the descriptions of the Rhana Dandra is that it is some sort of last-stand final battle against the Forces of Chaos. I assume this refers to the 13th Black Crusade, and thus coincides with the Imperium's 'Time of Ending'. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty dumb hibernating when your enemies are apparently stronger than you and when they have displayed the ability to detect tomb worlds.


After the rebellion against the C'tan, the weakened Necrons could not have hoped to stand against the Eldar. So they decided to descend into stasis-sleep, knowing that their civilisation was much more prepared to stand the test of time. 

And although several Tomb Worlds have malfunctioned or been destroyed in the sixty-million years since the War in Heaven, the majority seem to be (somewhat) intact - thus vindicating their logic.



Lux said:


> Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?


They didn't really create one, merely found a way to utilise alien technology.



Beaviz81 said:


> The Space Marines today are not united under one banner, and even if they have so many divergent beliefs amongst the UM-traditions alone that I would be surprised if half of them didn't want to kill Guilliman as the diversion of force is both the IOM greatest strength and weakness.


Also, a build up of Legion-sized forces under a single individual's command is strictly against the Codex Astartes - the very rigid laws that govern the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tawa said:


> You can say that again!
> I'd hate to be the poor Adept given the task of mapping out which Chapters are friends today and who aren't :laugh:


Thats quite easy, but putting them all under one banner would be the true nightmare my friend.  I mean all the Primarches returning at once ain't likely to do that so good luck with one single Priamrch and now I'm opening up for even stupid speculation.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> The only Primarch that could really change anything is Robute Gulliman if he healed up and even he could end up branded as a heretic and nuked like a dog or daemon.
> 
> Lets play with which returned.
> 
> ...





> Leman Russ: A known rebel, likely marked for extermination.


And who is going to be dumb enough to try and attempt that?
They openly defied the inquisition got several Billion worlds wiped out and killed a grand master of the grey knights not to mention an inquisitor lord all for the loss of a few ships and men.

Not to mention that the same inquisitor lord kneeled before Bjorn.
Now imagine what effect a primarch is going to have on them. Keep in mind that this is also the primarch that has a tank named after them.

The sisters of battle and high lords might not like it but in the end they won't have a choice. Russ is a loyal son of the emperor that is something none of them have.



> The Lion: Ehm he would probably have a fatal heart-attack seeing what his sosns had descended into if not he would likely slaughtered his sons for what they had become I hope. If not just exterminate.


Sounds to me like someone just hates the dark angels. But I'll humor you. The lion is a pragmatic he also is secretive there's a good chance nothing would have changed.



> Corax: Well he is GW's version of Doug Wilson, he mortgaged his legion's future for results today. Do the IOM need that? I'd say nay. Exterminate.


The imperium was undermanned and just suffered devastating losses at the hands of horuses forces.

He took a gamble to increase their forces that would have succeeded were it not for the alpha legion.

If he did succeed things may have well played out differently.



> The Khan: Not as rebellious as Russ, but still would be snuffed out.


 Still a loyal son and a primarch. assuming he would be snuffed out like a dog is forgetting exactly what he is.

I'm not dealing with the rest of your post. It seems like you never read any of the source material or fail to comprehend what they are. Come back when you can back your ideas up with cold hard facts.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

What the fuck are you saying Reaper? That I never back up my ideas? I linked it with fluff. If you think that badly on what the fuck I write Reaper, then don't fucking comment on what I write then as I have no patience with rude idiots nor the fucking accusations they dole out here.

The best thing I can say about some of the Primarches are that they are deserters, and that is the best thing I can say about some of them despite their extremely "good" reasons for leaving.

Most likely they would be put down for being imposers as I'm all reality, I mean a guy coming back claiming to be Jesus IRL wouldn't just be accepted .


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What has happened to these forums, I feel like I came into Heresy forums during 30k great crusade era. Now I feel like I warped through time, and I am in Heresy Forums late 40k.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

How about the lion comes back, being the pragmatic cold hearted bastard he is, destroys the webway portal in the emperors palace, freeing the emperor for his great burden, then begs forgiveness and stabs the emperor killing him, allowing him to use his perpetual power to respawn

Or another crazy idea, russ comes back with magnus, magnus repents has realized he was hood winked by tzeench, agrees to take the emperors place on the throne as was meant to be his fate but russ must die at his hand for destroying prospero, the wolf agrees as he will do all to save daddy, daddy regenerates, cleanses the webway bish bash bosh.

I have just finished a night shift, so I will launch more crazy later xoxox Oldman


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Well that surely demonstrates the diversity of the word fuck. Now let me try. Stop that fucking fuck-pie throwing fucking contest right fucking now! I acctualy don't see those linka to fluff you are talking about @beavis81. I acctualy don't even see your post. Was it edited to that other highly sourcefull post of, Tyranids wins, Tyranid victory. Tau wins, tau victory. Etc. 

Now please go back to the discussion as it where and if beavis81 still wants to explain and defend that he do have sources then he can open up a new thread named 'I do have sources!'


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Play nice kids


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Play nice kids



We do papa-Tawa!


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> The best thing I can say about some of the Primarches are that they are deserters, and that is the best thing I can say about some of them despite their extremely "good" reasons for leaving.


Russ was around roughly 150 years after the heresy, why he left no one knows. Perhaps he got a message from Corax asking for help. I don't know.

Who else besides A primarch can judge their actions.

The Khan chased Dark eldar forces into the webway. saying that he decided to go joy riding after he entered it is dumb. Not to mention it completely ignores his tactical doctrine.

The information on vulkan is unknown. 

Gulliman and dorn both were killed/wounded in battle that's hardly a mark of desertion.

Corax went to the eye perhaps on a penitent crusade for what he did.

Primarchs are powerful. They are more than capable of fighting warp entities and turning the tides of battle on their own.

They are also more than capable of proving who they are, they did it on their home worlds and they can do it again.

Not to mention they are the emperor's sons while I'm fairly certain they wouldn't approve of the imperial religion there's a good chance they might see the reason why it exists.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

While all the Primarchs are super-duper everything, while they were around and kicking, only the Lion and Guilliman showed the strategic galaxy-spanning thinking able to help the Imperium IMO.

I doubt either would just 'show up' on the steps of the Imperial Place and declare themselves the Imperial Regent. Guilliman was the post-Emperor until his nigh-fatal wounding and knows intimately how to pull the strings of power. The Lion I'm not so sure about as he never had the chance to really prove he could run an organization outside of the scope of his own Legion. Sure there would be whackadoos in the Inquisition and the Ecclisiarchy, but when isn't there? And for Guilliman's case, both those organizations were around and healthy well after the Scouring, but didn't seem to bother him much.

Related to the OP, I still think the Necron's come out on top of the Imperium without the Emperor on his feet.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Related to the OP, I still think the Necron's come out on top of the Imperium without the Emperor on his feet.


The necrons had a good chance back when we thought they were unified and had the c'tan leading them. Neither of those things are true anymore. 

I personally think the necrons are out of the running. The lore seems quite suggestive of internal politics almost as convulted as the various factions of the Imperium. A lot of dynasties won't even talk to each other, while yet more are on a shoot on sight basis.

It would require the likes of Imotekh, Anrakyr and Szarekh all working in tandem to unite as many of the fractured kingdoms as possible and rally them to war under one banner. It then requires that all these united kingdoms can maintain loyalty to each other and within themselves for the duration, or the whole thing could fall apart. 

As of now, there are simply too many different rulers with their own agendas spread across the necron former empire to hold any cohesive alliance of that scale.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Personally my money is on the orks. Ghazkull currently has more power than any warboss before him.

He brought Armageddon to it's knees twice, wounded a chapter master and managed to make a group of orks line up and give Yarrick an honor guard.

Not to mention he made a doc reattach yarricks powerclaw and eye and he did it on the level of an imperial doctor.

Not to mention the orks are not bound by things like trying to defend homes or people. How do you defeat something that only cares about killing.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

With regards to Ghazghull and Abbaddon Wobbly Models had it's piece to say about them.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Personally my money is on the orks. Ghazkull currently has more power than any warboss before him.
> 
> He brought Armageddon to it's knees twice, wounded awould be. ter master and managed to make a group of orks line up and give Yarrick an honor guard.
> 
> ...


That last line tells all of why. They care about killing. Not about surviving or outlasting other species.

If they wanted or cared about being the last faction standing, they would be.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> That last line tells all of why. They care about killing. Not about surviving or outlasting other species.
> 
> If they wanted or cared about being the last faction standing, they would be.


Still defeating an enemy that doesn't care about death is hard.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I think Gret grusade era warboss The Beast where more powerful than Thraka. And the overfiend of Octavius may be stronger if he defets the Tyranids.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> He brought Armageddon to it's knees twice, wounded a chapter master and managed to make a group of orks line up and give Yarrick an honor guard.


I must have missed this.... :scratchhead:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I sort of wonder what having honor before reason makes you so awesome? It sort of smacks of incompetence. Its like Abbaddon imprisoning Logan, Kaldor or Dante then letting them go for no good reason other than fighting on.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I sort of wonder what having honor before reason makes you so awesome? It sort of smacks of incompetence. Its like Abbaddon imprisoning Logan, Kaldor or Dante then letting them go for no good reason other than fighting on.


Maybe because he wants to give his boyz a challenging target to fight against?

Orks don't operate on the same logic as humans.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Maybe because he wants to give his boyz a challenging target to fight against?
> 
> Orks don't operate on the same logic as humans.


Thats your fucking answer? Faulty logic? Bond-villain stupidity? 

Of course that was the reasoning I remember its supposed to be awesome. Instead Thraka looks like an idiot as freeing such a dangerous enemy is just stupid and lacks pragmatism.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

"Just stupid" it may be but it's the fluff. Remember we are talking about a universe where people fly halfway across the galaxy in giant church ships to hit their enemies with swords. None of it is that pragmatic, least of all the Orks. We are talking about a race that at one point had a member go back in time so he could kill himself and get have two of his favourite gun, he makes Thraka look positively sane.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

That was actually a fun story, but i wouldn't expect an ork to have command over the grandfather-paradox when some humans even doesn't understand it.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Maybe because he wants to give his boyz a challenging target to fight against?
> 
> Orks don't operate on the same logic as humans.



This is exactly it. The only thing better than a hard fought victory is a tie. Then they know they have found someone that is worth taking on again and again. And if you want to keep the klans together you better make sure that fight goes on. Slaying the commander that makes such fight possible would spell victory for the orks which leda to infighting and the end of the Waaagh. 

As a warboss you must know a better target for your Waaagh before you conquer the current one. Few bosses has this ability to plan but Thraka, i guess lost his shortterm planing when he took that bolter round to the brain. Or Grotsnik didn't care to put it back. 

So, thraka releasing Yarrick has nothing to do with what humans call honour. It is a well calculated risk to keep his Waaagh alive.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The Orks don't want to win 40k. That isn't their goal. That's looking at them from a more human perspective.
Orks is made for fighting. As long as the fight goes on the Orks have acheived what they set out to do


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I'd like to say that at least intially I love how we skim over Choas, Tau, Imperium, and go right for the predictable bad bys of the topic. 

However moving on I'd like to make two quick points......



Serpion5 said:


> c'tan will be whole again.


Is this such a bad thing though Serp? Mind you I havn't read the entire book on the Crons but that being said the C'Tan were around long before the Crons found them yes? Long before the Elder fought the Crons right? My understanding is they feed, but were not a significant threaten to humanity as a whole; so wouldn't they just become so again?



Serpion5 said:


> Silent King of the necrons had spent a great deal of time in the void between, and returned because he encountered the tyranids and planned to lead his people against them.


Indeed it did Serpion, but I don't think he came back in order to defeat the Nids. If you can cite a source that proves otherwise I'd love to read it but I think he see's something else. My perspective is that he see's the threat they face to all life, both Organic and In-Organic, galaxy wide. The Silent King realizes that Tyranids could not only crush the humans, but his people as well. 

Therefore I disagree with both your statement, and that of others in here as well. If anything I think the Silent Kings disproves the long-standing idea that Nids "cannot eat Crons."

With those being said I take a more strategic and Imperialistic approach to the situation of the galaxy at large. We know that the follow facts are undeniable.....

- The Imperium of Man is on the verge of collapse by fighting both forces externally and forces within. He can say for certain that many factions hate Terra, and would be more than happy to see it destroyed. These factions are not Choas-driven, just a bunch of guys on Planet A hating the ruling class of the guys from Planet B. We also can safely say the Imperium has an highly inexhaustable army of resources (Manpower, Machines, Weapons, Ships) but lacks the knowledges to really take the offesives beause of it's beaurocratic size. Their strong arms are tied by politics, their heroes often banished and branded as heretics. In the end the Phobic Imperium may well do itself in without the assistence of outside forces. They are sadly not a major player for domination of the galaxy unless unified. 

- We know that Choas just hates the Imperium. While generally slit and fighting amoungst themselves for powerthey are slowly and surely being brought together to form an almost unbeatable force of destruction that threatens to tears the galaxy apart. Even the Elder, Tau, and Crons recognize this and have made steps on their own to prvent such an outcome. We can say that Choas has the ability of hiding in their "Warp;" their alternate Universe from which they could hide from both Crons nd Nids shuld the worse come to pass. However they are limited by the connection to their Gods, and are also limited with their connection outside the Warp.

- The Eldar have given us insight into the mystical understanding of the Universe. They are the Masters of the Webway, and could probably retreat into it if the End Times really fell upon them. Their Advanced Technology and Mastery of the Arcane are blackened by their dwindling numbers and their horrendous tactics at self-preservation. They have no ambition to either Defend nor Conquer the Universe itself, yet habitually hypocrite this very position by assisting younger races like Humans and Tau. In the end it would be quite questionable if these folks will still be around. 

- Orks.....tough one to say. They are resilient, Strong, Survivialists all. They make up in breeding and numbers what Nature/War takes from them in kind. Their technology may suck but more than once it has proven to beat the snot out of even the Necrons and Nids. As the Archfiend proved even he could hold back the Hordes of Nids thrown at him for quite some time. They are a restless, zelous race that cares only for Destruction and sometimes even make Choas look like baby panzies. 

- Tyranids are a big contender for the Conquerors of the Milkway Galaxy. Like the Yuuzhan Vong from Star Wars they have advanced Bio-Weapon technology. They feel no pain, know no knowledge, and are a tireless wave of Destruction created for some unknown purpose that has lead them to our home Galaxy in search of Nutrition. Thier terrifiying creatures and technology allow them to sweep most contenders out of their way, yet they do have weaknesses that a prepared opponent can control.. They may come in endless tides to this Galaxy but often it is found that even the vast Hive Fleets do have a finite number of organism it can create and control. In the end it would come down to whether or not the Nids can outpace their opponents in both Ferocity, and consumption levels.

- Necrons are a Anomoly in the game conquest in Warhammer 40k. They are the only Race that is sentient yet non-organic. Like the Geth they stand outsde the normal parameters of social norms and the flows of the galaxy; but when they intrude they leave a deadly, sometimes fatal, mark. Their technology is unDisputed, their cunning deadly, and their ability to regenerate their dead gives them a advantage only Choas and Nids can rival. Finally we can safely say that Crons are divided in a civil war that stems from indecision on how to proceed in the modern millenia. However if they were to be fully unified, as the Silent King may be able to accomplish, then they would be a truely terrifying force to fight. This makes them one of the top, if not the #1, End Times contender. 

- Who could forget the Tau, Master of Technology, and Philosophy. Their civilization is already tettering on the brink because of their wars with both Orks and Nids. They may control the powers around them, but they are to young and to inept at the Galaxy's politics to be a major contender. 

- Dark Eldar........yeah right! While these rogue Elder may possess some formidible technology in their hidden fortress admist the webway they are not even close to a unified fighting force. Furthermore without their "Hit and Run," pirate brands there are few amoung them that have the Strength, Cunning, and Politics to be able to contedn with stronger races like Necrons and the Imperium of Man. 


In all honesty Humanity will find a way to dominate the day as they always do. Their strongest aspect if Hope and Adaptation. However in truth I think Choas is still the greatest threat and the most likely to be standing after the End Times. I mean lets be honest they have the powers of 4 Gods.....you just cannot beat that :good:


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Again with the "Choas"! What is it with you and that word! :grin:


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

emporershand89 said:


> In all honesty Humanity will find a way to dominate the day as they always do. Their strongest aspect if Hope and Adaptation. However in truth I think Choas is still the greatest threat and the most likely to be standing after the End Times. I mean lets be honest they have the powers of 4 Gods.....you just cannot beat that :good:


One point i thought of which may not tip the scales in any which way exactly. (But) if the Imperium did become a sinking ship near a galaxy wide endgame, then i could see millions and millions of human refugees heading for the Eye regardless if it proved the same outcome as staying in the natural' crosshairs of Nids' or Necrons. The potential there is that some forces in the Eye get bolstered as a final bastion hiding in the rip in space. Safe?

In the endgame, would certain alliances come about that proved fruitful, or too late i wonder?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Therefore I disagree with both your statement, and that of others in here as well. If anything I think the Silent Kings disproves the long-standing idea that Nids "cannot eat Crons."


How the fuck do you draw that conclusion?


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> How the fuck do you draw that conclusion?


 @emporershand89 Ignore 'fuck' and continue the discussion.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Moriouce said:


> @emporershand89 Ignore 'fuck' and continue the discussion.


A.K.W.A.R.D! Confusion, not processing format that looks like bad twitter pages gone rogue. 

In any case the Silent King did battle with the Nids, and recognizes the potential threat they hold to his people. Why else would the most powerful Cron Lord gather an entire Legion to kill one species when he could sit back and just wait for the Nids to run out of Steam. Also consider that the Necrons need slaves......Nids = No slaves!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> A.K.W.A.R.D! Confusion, not processing format that looks like bad twitter pages gone rogue.
> 
> In any case the Silent King did battle with the Nids, and recognizes the potential threat they hold to his people. Why else would the most powerful Cron Lord gather an entire Legion to kill one species when he could sit back and just wait for the Nids to run out of Steam. Also consider that the Necrons need slaves......Nids = No slaves!


There is no fluff to suggest that Szarekh battled the nids. Only that he saw them and recognized the threat they would pose. 

And no. Szarekh wants apotheosis for his people, meaning he wants to return the necrons into bodies of flesh. To do that, he needs a suitable candidate race, and there is reason to believe that such a race exists in 40k. 

This is about protecting a future investment, not a legitimate threat to his forces. We already have reason enough to believe that the tyranids will otherwise avoid engagements with the necrons. 

Necrons do not need slaves. Some overlords might enjoy the power fix, others might see it as a form of mercy to conquered foes, but slaves are by no means essential to necron infrastructure.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I actually think as of now, the Chaos Gods have control of the galaxy in the sense that they are in a position of controlling the stream of damage it can do to the Imperium instead of being bottle necked like it was a while ago. If the Chaos Gods wanted to, they could pour everything into the Galaxy and just take it over, but for obvious reasons they haven't. I am also skeptical as to the Chaos Gods ambition to seeing Terra fall. I actually don't believe it is so. I also believe that the Chaos Gods chose not to destroy Terra during the Horus Heresy, and in fact possibly limited the success of the traitors.

This brings up an interesting concept as to the state of the Galaxy and who will be able to control it. I see a scenario where the chaos forces would exist as sort of a police force from having the galaxy taken or destroyed by a single force. At this stage the Imperium doesn't really matter unless it really is the Chaos Gods' intent to ingulf the entire galaxy.

As far as the Eldar and the destruction of a Chaos God. I think this area is cool because you can entertain the possibility and wonder how or what would be the consequence. I think immediately, there would be a power vacuum with the Chaos Gods and the Great Game. I also think its interesting what becomes of a destroyed Chaos God... I personally don't think a Chaos God can persae be destroyed and vanish into thin air. Their are many things that make up a Chaos God. In fact, it is believed that the 4 major chaos gods have consumed other chaos gods. If this is true, I see a scenario where a destroyed Chaos God would be in form of shards or pieces of the original kind of like the Avatar of Khaine. It seems to me that the pieces of a fallen Chaos God would be parts, concepts, ideas, of the original and incomplete. Therefore they would be in a sense minor chaos gods roaming the warp or consumed by other minor or major chaos gods.

I think this would be the idealist scenario for those forces who would like to see Chaos fall. Of course the most idealistic scenario in which all of them break apart. But in the case that only one falls, though it creates this power vacuum where one god could take the upper hand, it in fact forces the Chaos Gods to in a sense retreat to their own agenda.


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