# Cult of the Dragon(Possible spoilers)



## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

OK, so Graham McNeill says that he originally wrote the Dragon of Mars to be a C'tan; a full C'tan and not a shard, but that's not the point. The point is that I've now seen two techpriests in the Cult of the Dragon, one in _Deliverance Lost_ and the other in _The Primarchs,_ and I'm very confused as to their intentions. I can't tell if BL is trying to set up a new sub-plot or if they're trying to retcon the original idea of the Dragon very slowly. Or both.

Another interesting thing to note, is that in _Deliverence Lost,_ the Dragon cultist speaks about the cult in a way that makes it seem like it is very much alive. Then, in _The Primarchs_, a different techpriest says the cult is now defunct but that he was part of it at some point. Obviously there can't be that much of a gap in time between the two novels for the cult to have been destroyed, and also obviously they wouldn't have brought it up again if it didn't mean something.

The problem I'm having is this: What exactly is the Cult of the Dragon? Is it based on the Dragon of Mars? Is it something entirely unrelated that just also happened to have the word dragon in it and be Mechanicus related?(derp)

If it is based on the C'tan Dragon of Mars, why are these guys so fond of Warp tech? The first guy who corrupted the gene-serum whatever stuff that Corax had may have been faking allegiance to Horus when in fact he was just trying to screw both parties for the benefit of the Dragon(who at this point I am assuming is still a C'tan). But that would imply it's communicating with them somehow and that it knows of the heresy and that it's trying to have influence in it somehow and and and and.....(*Minor brain hemorrhage*) Still though, if the Dragon is a C'tan, why would these guys be using Warp tech in the first place? Seems odd. I could accept the fact that the former cultist became enamored with the Warp sphere device thing in _Primarchs_ and renounced the cult in favor of worshiping this thing, so at least that part makes some sense. Chaos corrupts all, etc.

Now for the other side: What if the Dragon is no longer a C'tan but just another daemon? The fact that the two cultists so far have been using Warp tech and didn't seem to care much about it either way seems to help this fact. The first cultist, in fact, seemed to aid Omegon in messing with the Raven Guard using "daemon's blood". Again, the second guy could have just "fallen in love" with the sphere thing, but we don't know where that's going yet.

Of course, what also backs this up is that _Mechanicum_ makes things VERY vague as to whether the Dragon is a C'tan or a daemon, possibly on purpose or accidentally vague(Cause GW/BL vagueness is usually accidental, right?) This combined with the fact that there is zero mention of Mars or anything related to it in the new Necron Codex(Whereas the previous codex has several references to Mars) starts leading me to believe that the Dragon may no longer be a C'tan. Sadly.

What do you guys think?

tl;dr What do you think the Cult of the Dragon is?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Firstly, I don't think _Mechanicum_ is vague in suggesting what the Dragon is, it is certainly a C'tan (or since the new Necron lore, a C'tan _shard_). 

I would be surprised if the heresy council don't have a sub-plot lined up for the Cult of the Dragon, otherwise their involvement is completely pointless other than as a nod to the C'tan shard.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly, I don't think _Mechanicum_ is vague in suggesting what the Dragon is, it is certainly a C'tan (or since the new Necron lore, a C'tan _shard_).
> 
> I would be surprised if the heresy council don't have a sub-plot lined up for the Cult of the Dragon, otherwise their involvement is completely pointless other than as a nod to the C'tan shard.



So what are they doing with warp tech? This also has to be the slowest buildup for a sub-plot I've ever seen.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> So what are they doing with warp tech?


Warp tech is still tech, there's no necessary reason for a C'tan cult (based around technology) to actively refuse to use a very powerful form of technology, just because its semi-warp-based. The C'tan themselves can't interact with the warp but perhaps the Dragon is attempting to learn more about it using his human subjects. Or he just doesn't have complete control over his 'minions', he is still imprisoned after all.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

MEQinc hit the nail on the head. He doesnt have full control over his minions. I believe it talks about how the Dragon is only semi awake in Mechanicum adn only communicates through vague dreams and impressions. Not exact thoughts and ideas. So even assuming the dragon didnt want them to investigate warptech, there is still a lot of room for misinterpretation, also if nothing else, the Cult of the Dragon is spread all over the galaxy and could very well have different sects.


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

There's also the possibility that there are only three types of tech that are advanced enough to fulfill the void dragons plans (whatever they are): necron, eldar and warp-based. If necron tech is used, there is the possibility that the necrons will be awakened by it attempt to trap the shard in a tesseract labyrinth. Likewise, use of eldar tech might attract the eldar, who would attempt to destroy the shard; that, or the void dragon doesn't know how to use eldar tech. This just leaves one possibility; warp-tech.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

This is what's getting me. A shard right? Go back and look at the description of what the Emperor faced. Your telling me that multiple shards of something like that are NOT imprisioned? Obviously not all the shards are accounted for. Look at what had to occur to imprison this thing that is a fraction. A fraction. Think about what that means and look at the description givin in the book of what kind of creature the Dragon was...weakened. Who else but the Emperor could have taken that thing on? Who's left now that would be able to handle them?

Them, that's right, you heard me. According to the new ridiculous fluff the Dragon represents a fraction of the some total. That means their are other Void Dragon shards out there. I'm sure they'll say come out with a way to justify why these other shards haven't destroyed the universe yet, right? Makes sense. OR, this concludes that the creature and story of the Void Dragon was never meant to be this shard crap. If the Necrons are aware of what's imprisoned there than the Dragon's shards would likely be aware also. This thing use to be a virtual God in the material realm according to the dreams in Mechanicum. So Mr. Ward, please explain how all the other shards are imprisoned as well. I'm sure that the Ward will come up with an explanation.

Maybe the Shards are at Shard-A-Palooza kickin back and listening to good music while a portion of them is imprisoned. Or maybe he'll say that the Necrons have all the Void Dragon shards and the one on Mars is the one that got away, awwww. Maybe there all dormant, though the only reason the Mars "shard" is dormant is due to outside intereference. Hey maybe every planet's got it's on Dragon Prison........


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Deadeye: What's with all the assumptions here?

First off just because one Void Dragon shard was free (at least until the Emperor got his hands on it) does not mean that they _all_ are free. Plenty of its shards are still in the hands of the Necrons, scattered among the various dynasties and Tomb Worlds, both awakened and slumbering. Plus let's not forget that many Tomb Worlds have been lost to the march of time, their C'tan shards buried and lost. So really for every 'active' shard(i.e. ones in the hands of an active dynasty or a free one that awake in the galaxy) there's at least another (if not more) that is inactive. Finally don't forget that while the C'tan may be shattered into many there are not a lot of them out there in the galaxy period.

Plus the C'tan Shards are described as being unaware of their shattered nature so the Void Dragon shards wouldn't be aware that there are other shards much less that one was on Mars.

As to why the other shards haven't 'destroyed the universe' implies that the Dragon wishes to destroy the universe which even in the old fluff they didn't want. And it implies that the C'tan have minds that we can comprehend. These are beings operating on a level beyond us. They are as utterly alien to us as the Chaos Gods are.

But imagine you're talking about the old theories about what the Dragon was doing to those on Mars. Who's to say that there aren't other shards out there doing similar things. The galaxy is truly massive which can be easy to forget given our view of the 40k galaxy. We know there are and have been other civilizations in the galaxy that revolve around technology and science, some of which have been wiped out by the Imperium or other powers. And in all likelihood if the forces of the Imperium encountered a shard of the Dragon without any Necrons on such a world they'd likely think it was some other entity rather than anything connected to the Necrons. Plus we don't know how long such shards have been active. I imagine that a small few of all the shards of all the C'tan have been active for a great deal of time but others have not. Of course time itself has little impact on the C'tan. They have all the time in the world to plot. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that the shard on Mars is active and plotting stuff so far down the line that even those in the modern 40k setting can't even comprehend that something is going on.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> That means their are other Void Dragon shards out there. I'm sure they'll say come out with a way to justify why these other shards haven't destroyed the universe yet, right? Makes sense.


Why would they have destroyed the universe? If that was even possible, why would that be their intention?



Deadeye776 said:


> OR, this concludes that the creature and story of the Void Dragon was never meant to be this shard crap.


Well we know that for a fact. When Mcneill wrote _Mechanicum_ the shard-lore didn't exist, so the Dragon of Mars was intended to be the _whole_ Void Dragon, Mcneill said as much himself. But since the new Necron lore has been published, its a simple matter of applying it to the previous stories. 



Deadeye776 said:


> If the Necrons are aware of what's imprisoned there than the Dragon's shards would likely be aware also.


Why? The shards only have "glimmering memories" of the being they once were, and I don't believe its stated that they are innately aware of one another, or their brother-shards' locations/presence.



Deadeye776 said:


> This thing use to be a virtual God in the material realm according to the dreams in Mechanicum.


And they still were god-like entities. The visions that the Dragon of Mars imparted to Cythera were possibly gleaned memories from when the Void Dragon was whole.



Deadeye776 said:


> So Mr. Ward, please explain how all the other shards are imprisoned as well. I'm sure that the Ward will come up with an explanation.


They are imprisoned within the tesseract labyrinths. Or at least most probably are, there may still be a handful of Void Dragon shards at large, perhaps through the Gates of Varl - there certainly used to be a C'tan presence there in previous editions of the lore.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own_ Primarchs_ story. Do you think they're linked?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

TheReverend said:


> Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own_ Primarchs_ story. Do you think they're linked?


If memory serves, the agents guarding the device in _The Lion_ are the same faction as those who crop up conspicuously in _Deliverance Lost_, also noted to be of 'The Order of the Dragon'.

There's an inherent point that Deadeye's overlooking here, unsurprisingly as the implications of the power of the C'tan aren't trivial.

First of all: the idea that the Emperor in M1 was the same as that of the Emperor in M30 when he conquers Earth, or M31, when he single-mindedly builds his own section of the Webway, something that it previously took the Burning One (C'tan & Dolmen Gates) or the Old Ones (Warp Gates in the first place) to achieve. The Eldar have ambiguous mastery and a surprising degree of innate control, but we really don't know how that compares to the magic (or triviality) of the Emperor and the Dolmen Gates.

The second point: the C'tan aren't unified, the shards even less so. The events which caused the Dragon to appear on Earth in a shoddy state to fight the Emperor and the events which saw the Talismans of Vaul used against the entire entity and the extent of the entity that's actual imprisoned on Mars are _not at all clear_.

For all we know, events could have proceeded like this:
- Talismans of Vaul used to 'defeat' the Void Dragon during the War in Heaven.
- Entire/most-of/section-of C'tan 'knocked unconscious' to Mars 'the Vaul Moon'
- Sliver/shard of the C'tan makes it to Terra and fights the Emperor
- Emperor beats the 'awake' Shard and proceeds to Mars to imprison/bind the pieces/thing that the Emperor can find on Mars
- Indeterminate numbers of shards might escape/leak from the prison on Mars (notably the Shroud assault on Mars by Necrons in M41 or as the Book stolen by Zouche & Caxton in the epilogue of _Mechanicum_).

In that regard, by M41: 
- The bulk of the Void Dragon might still be unconscious and imprisoned on Mars
- Some shards could be loose, some used by the Adeptus Mechanicus' 'Order of the Dragon', some recovered by Necrons, some simply 'loose' and causing mischief (the Book)?

Alternatively the whole thing could have escaped Mars by binding its consciousness into the Book. Or the whole thing was never _on_ Mars, only a single Shard that the Emperor fought. It could be loose. It could have fled the galaxy. We know tiny, vague bits; we don't know all.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

TheReverend said:


> Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own_ Primarchs_ story. Do you think they're linked?


True and let's not forget that Ferrus Manus got his silver hands dunking the Great Silver Wyrm into magma, creature that sounds like a C'tan Shard or some ancient Necron construct made of necrodermis. So perhaps it was a shard of the Void Dragon. It could be another C'tan but given his talent and skill with weapon-making and technology the Dragon is more likely. Perhaps in addition to the necrodermis the Dragon passed on tiny, tiny fragments of itself to him, subtly influencing him. Maybe the IHs' belief in the superiority of iron over flesh was brought about by this shard of the Dragon.

Note: I am NOT saying that the Iron Hands Chapter and their Successor Chapters are pawns of the Void Dragon or the Necrons, just that a shard of the Dragon could have unintentionally or not influenced Ferrus and the Iron Hands.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

TheReverend said:


> Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own_ Primarchs_ story. Do you think they're linked?


I doubt it, the bulk of that thing is in the Warp and it's able to shift things to and from the Warp. C'tan don't seem to like the Warp very much. Then again, the C'tan _did_ figure out how to tunnel into the Webway, which interacts with the Warp... hell, I'm not even sure what's going on with all the retconning. 



Akatsuki13 said:


> Note: I am NOT saying that the Iron Hands Chapter and their Successor Chapters are pawns of the Void Dragon or the Necrons, just that a shard of the Dragon could have unintentionally or not influenced Ferrus and the Iron Hands.


They _have_ been influenced by it; everything that makes up the Adeptus Mechanicus has been influenced by the Dragon, that was the Emperor's plan all along. He put it there knowing that one day it would push the settlers on Mars towards becoming what they are in the 41st millenium. The Iron hands do the same stuff, right? I doubt they're pawns, willing or unwilling, but it sounds about right to me.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Just to clear a few things up, the 12 black stone fortresses that were used against the Void Dragon in one of the battles of heaven *did not* defeat him. It clearly states the Void dragon with its Necron Army faced the Eldar army and their 12 black stone fortresses, of which it than destroyed most of them in that battle and routed the Eldar Army.

The Eldar lost that battle, even though they had all 12 black stone fortresses with them during the battle.

Also I do speculate as well that Ferrus Manus has a shard of a C'Tan (void dragon imo) bonded to him, it explains his extreme mastery of crafting, and technology. Also it would explain why he was able to command and manipulate technology, metal with but a touch, as in his battle with Fulgrim he willed Fulgrim's sword to explode with but a touch of his metalic hands.

Also after he was "killed" by fulgrim, a tear of reality occurs, literal hands and forces unknown tore through reality and were grabbing at Fulgrim. Perhaps this is due to the C'Tan shard? Who knows.

Ultimately I believe Games workshop has left the story line malleable enough to the point where if they ever fall into a dire enough financial situation they would be able to bring back any of the primarchs, such as stating the bonded C'Tan shard preserved Ferrus's mind and body with its power, and that he is currently housed secretly in mars in some sort of machine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> Just to clear a few things up, the 12 black stone fortresses that were used against the Void Dragon in one of the battles of heaven *did not* defeat him. It clearly states the Void dragon with its Necron Army faced the Eldar army and their 12 black stone fortresses, of which it than destroyed most of them in that battle and routed the Eldar Army.
> 
> The Eldar lost that battle, even though they had all 12 black stone fortresses with them during the battle.


Do we actually have that much information?

From the _Dawn of the C'tan_ article:



> +++OUR INFORMATION STATES THERE WERE SIX FORTRESSES PRIOR TO THE GOTHIC WAR+++
> 
> "True enough, but their real potential was never realised by the Imperium, nor even by Abaddon the Despoiler. The Talismans of Vaul were controlled by the spirits of those Eldar Seers killed by the Necron invasion. At the heart of each Talisman sat one of the Eyes of the Witch. These were gifted to Vaul by Morai-heg, the Crone-goddess of the Eldar whose domain was secret knowledge. They enabled the departed spirits to channel vast amounts of energy straight from the Immaterium into real space. In this way Vaul intended to banish the Dragon for eternity."
> 
> ...


It doesn't exactly reveal much.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> This is what's getting me. A shard right? Go back and look at the description of what the Emperor faced. Your telling me that multiple shards of something like that are NOT imprisioned? Obviously not all the shards are accounted for. Look at what had to occur to imprison this thing that is a fraction. A fraction. Think about what that means and look at the description givin in the book of what kind of creature the Dragon was...weakened. Who else but the Emperor could have taken that thing on? Who's left now that would be able to handle them?
> 
> Them, that's right, you heard me. According to the new ridiculous fluff the Dragon represents a fraction of the some total. That means their are other Void Dragon shards out there. I'm sure they'll say come out with a way to justify why these other shards haven't destroyed the universe yet, right? Makes sense. OR, this concludes that the creature and story of the Void Dragon was never meant to be this shard crap. If the Necrons are aware of what's imprisoned there than the Dragon's shards would likely be aware also. This thing use to be a virtual God in the material realm according to the dreams in Mechanicum. So Mr. Ward, please explain how all the other shards are imprisoned as well. I'm sure that the Ward will come up with an explanation.
> 
> Maybe the Shards are at Shard-A-Palooza kickin back and listening to good music while a portion of them is imprisoned. Or maybe he'll say that the Necrons have all the Void Dragon shards and the one on Mars is the one that got away, awwww. Maybe there all dormant, though the only reason the Mars "shard" is dormant is due to outside intereference. Hey maybe every planet's got it's on Dragon Prison........


hahah loved this


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Do we actually have that much information?
> 
> From the _Dawn of the C'tan_ article:
> 
> ...


Point made, you are a source of knowledge you are.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To Cote:

Glimmering memories isn't what I'm talking about friend. Yeah I know that the one imprisoned by the Emperor had amnesia that was due to the Emperor's power and machinations. Your telling me that the Necron's have imprisoned All of his shards and not only that have built prisons like the one on Mars? The Emperor couldn't defeat destroy this creature weakened. Your telling me there's multiple shards like the one on earth? Even if they have all but 5 percent that's enought to destroy the Imperium. Again these new fluff are making absolutely no sense. You want to believe it because it fits your new army specialization character wishes. For this to make sense, the Dragon in Mechanicus would have to be retconned in power because more than one would mean do the exact opposite of what GW wants apparently: trump Chaos as the preimminent threat to mankind.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Again we are forgetting what the c'tan shards actually are. 

Each one is bound to the fabric of the universe. Each one is in possession of near unlimited power. 

The only thing that holds them back is their own fractured awareness and memories. Remember it was their minds that were broken into shards, not the potential power they wield. 


In regards to the Cult of the Dragon, I feel that there is further lore yet to be revealed before their relevance will truly become known. For the time being they simply appear to be some filler material designed to invoke speculation. This may in fact be the extent of their purpose from GW but we'll just have to wait and see where it goes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> To Cote: Glimmering memories isn't what I'm talking about friend.


But such "glimmering memories" is what limits the power and scope of the C'tan shards. As _Serp_ said, despite the shards possessing "near-unlimited power", they do not have the imagination or mind to fully utilise it, or at least not utilise it in the most convenient or direct manner.

The exact wording in the codex is: "Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed. Whilst no individual C'tan Shard has full recall of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far vaster and more puissant being."



Deadeye776 said:


> Yeah I know that the one imprisoned by the Emperor had amnesia that was due to the Emperor's power and machinations.


But it wasn't due to the Emperor. It is the nature of the C'tan shards that their minds are fractured.



Deadeye776 said:


> Your telling me that the Necron's have imprisoned All of his shards and not only that have built prisons like the one on Mars?


Umm, no? The Necrons have most of the C'tan shards imprisoned within the tesseract labyrinths. The Emperor didn't have access to such technology, but was able to imprison a Void Dragon shard in a different manner. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Your telling me there's multiple shards like the one on earth? Even if they have all but 5 percent that's enought to destroy the Imperium...
> 
> For this to make sense, the Dragon in Mechanicus would have to be retconned in power because more than one would mean do the exact opposite of what GW wants apparently: trump Chaos as the preimminent threat to mankind.


No, it's not enough to destroy the Imperium. Compared to their consummate predecessors, the scope of the C'tan shards is severely limited. Also, whilst still incredibly powerful, as far as I am aware they also still largely rely on necrodermis technology to truly interact in mortal ways, and if they don't have the backing of a tomb world it is unclear if they could remanifest with necrodermis shells - at least that is in regards to the shards unaccounted for by the Necrons.



Deadeye776 said:


> Again these new fluff are making absolutely no sense. You want to believe it because it fits your new army specialization character wishes.


No, I don't play table-top.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I wrote this on another thread:



forkmaster said:


> Did anyone else noticed the appearence yet again by the order of the Dragon in one of Gavs books? First they appeared in Delvierence Lost, and I suspected they to be a Chaos cult within the Dark Mechanicus which worshipped the Void Dragon, but now, after reading their insignia, "a dragon which chases and bites its own tail". Isn't that like the mark of Thousand Sons post-heresy? I think they might be a radical Tzeentch supporting cult.


And I'm not so sure how deep this cult goes or how much it has been discussed by HH-team. So far its only Gav Thorpes who has used them as "villains" of sort.  Might be explored deeper in the future.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Huh, so it is. A Mechanicum Tzeentch cult "of the Dragon" unrelated to the "Dragon of Mars". I was afraid of that, lol.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Huh, so it is. A Mechanicum Tzeentch cult "of the Dragon" unrelated to the "Dragon of Mars". I was afraid of that, lol.


Well its only a theory, nothing is confirmed. I asked Gav Thorpe this himself and this is what he wrote: "_I hope to develop the Order of the Dragon a bit further if I get the chance. As to who they are, you'll have to guess for the time being._" So my best guesses are that they are his own creation and ost probably something he will work on then.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.


Yes.  

There is no problem here. The necrons with all the scientific knowledge the c'tan _gave_ them built weapons capable of extinguishing solar systems yet breaking the c'tan into shards is the best they could manage. These shards remained in possession of the near unlimited power their forebears had because they were still bound to the fabric of the universe, yet they had not the knowledge or memories to use this power to its fullest following their being sundered. 

The Empeoro, being the most powerful psyker alive, was able to subdue an already weakened shard, admitting he did not have the power required to destroy it, and then imprisoned it by the means he had at its disposal. A similar scenario to the Eldar constructing a dyson sphere to imprison the Dragon because they lacked the tesseract labyrinths of the necrons and the raw psychic might of the Emperor. 

The Cult of the Dragon could be the result of the Dragon Shard's fractured dreams or they could be reclusive Chaos cultists. They could be necron collaborators or they could simply be a rogue faction of their own agenda. We can't do anything but guess what they are at this point and whether or not the sleeping c'tan shard is even relevant to them at all.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.


I understand what you're saying, you have said the same for your last couple of posts and we have replied accordingly.

Yes, the Dragon of Mars is only one shard of several. Yes, it was a challenge for the Emperor to defeat. Yes, it indirectly helped to create the Mechanicum and thus the Imperium. No, the Emperor wasn't able to destory it, only imprison it. We acknowledge that.

But as you have acknowledged, the shards are still beings of "near-unlimited power", and are only limited by their "imagination" and "glittering memories". For all we know, the shards have the potential to wield just as much power as their consummate forebears, but are limited by their fractured minds and the inability to glean the memories and awareness they possessed before they were shattered. The shards are also presumably just as impossible to utterly eradicate as their predecessors were, so its no wonder the Emperor was unable to destroy the Dragon of Mars. 

I see no issue (big or small) with the narrative at all: A shard finds its way to Terra, where it was fought and subdued by the Emperor. The Emperor found it impossible to destroy (which fits the new lore) so instead imprisoned it under the sands of Mars, with the long-term intention of fostering the Mechanicum. The shard (still a being of "near-unlimited power" remember) was then able to subtlety influence the human colonists on Mars to develop their knowledge and appriciation of technology, eventually leading to the development of the Mechanicum. What part of that poses a problem exactly?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Deadeye: I agree with the other two - that's pretty damn close. There's nothing really to say that the Void Dragon on Mars is _wholly_ sharded, e.g. into tiny pieces like we see in the new Necron Codex. It could be a mammoth piece, it certainly seems to be. Other shards may exist.

However, there's another important factor to bear in mind: the Emperor isn't necessarily the greatest-known psyker... *yet*.

It takes place deep in the depths of human history, only by ~M30 does the Emperor appear capable of 'trying to take over the galaxy', but before that? How powerful was he? Very powerful? Moderately powerful? Untapped?

It's a bit of a mystery and it might be a little naive to assume he's as powerful when he works on the Webway as he was the day(s) he fought the Dragon. Properly imprisoning the Dragon might have taken millennia, even if subduing it only took a few hours. 

Certainly, what we know of the various Thrones is that the Akashic Reader, the Silver Throne and the Ork Throne: they massively amplify psychic powers. Perhaps the Golden Throne of Terra is not entirely different- until it was built/found/acquired perhaps the Emperor was not so powerful as he would become?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Furthermore, at the time of the Dragon's defeat there was no Mars colony or Imperium. Exactly how he contained it for the millennia until he could move it is never explained, but I doubt keeping a true c'tan prisoner for so long would have been possible with what the Emperor had at his disposal. A mind fractured entity makes more sense.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Certainly, Serp. If Mars isn't a Necron Tombworld (which seems unlikely nowadays), then it makes sense that if the Emperor just has to keep going back to Mars every few hours/millennia to knock-out the Dragon, it seems a wee bit more reasonable.

Getting him to Mars perhaps isn't so difficult: magical gates to other worlds aren't entirely infeasible. It seems possible that a Dolmen Gate once existed on Earth (foundation for the Golden Throne or the Hall of Leng?), somehow experimenting with that might have been enough, or even just his own bit of magical jiggerypokery may be sufficient.

In that regard, it's possible that the Emperor had to relocate to Mars periodically to do some housekeeping. (And C'tan-knocking-out.) Hiding a C'tan, on the otherhand, might not be so difficult when you've got an empty planet to play with.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You've all lost the point of my thread. Your telling me there are seven Void Dragon shards like the one the Emperor faced. Go back and read what happened. Seven. So what's going on with them? They on vacation? I'm saying that that thing is too powerful.The most powerful psyker in the history of the materium couldn't destroy a weakned fraction of the Void Dragon. He had to put together an elaborate prison with supernatural guardians to keep it contained. The C'tan, to my knowledge do not have the technology to create a prison like the one on mars. It's ridiculous enough to think the C'tan gave the Necrons the tech to destroy them but to imprison them as well would be ludicrous. The enemy they were both fighting were warp based and nothing like the C'tan, why would they give the Necrons tech to destroy or imprison them? 


The shard that was in Nightbringer was more believable. Weakened but still powerful, the Nightbringer had wasn't a night omnipotent fraction. I highly doubt that if even one of the Void Dragon's shards were to awaken or return, at what we saw it capable of in Mechanicum, anything in the Imperium or Necron forces would be able to stop it from taking out Mars's defenses and unite with the other shard there. Waaaay too powerful.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> You've all lost the point of my thread. Your telling me there are seven Void Dragon shards like the one the Emperor faced. Go back and read what happened. Seven. So what's going on with them?


Can you direct me to where somebody mentioned a specific number of any shard? 



> They on vacation? I'm saying that that thing is too powerful.The most powerful psyker in the history of the materium couldn't destroy a weakned fraction of the Void Dragon. He had to put together an elaborate prison with supernatural guardians to keep it contained.


A fraction of its mind, not its power. Remember, each shard still possesses the near unlimited power of its forebear, it is reasonable to assume that this would include their inherent resilience. The Dragon Shard was at a reduced mental capacity, not reduced power. You keep harping on about the thing being too powerful to make sense, ignoring our repeated answers that the shards DO NOT HAVE THE WIT TO USE THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. Their minds and memories are what was fractured remember? This was precisely the necons' plan, not to destroy them, but to make them more manageable. 



> The C'tan, to my knowledge do not have the technology to create a prison like the one on mars. It's ridiculous enough to think the C'tan gave the Necrons the tech to destroy them but to imprison them as well would be ludicrous. The enemy they were both fighting were warp based and nothing like the C'tan, why would they give the Necrons tech to destroy or imprison them?


The necrons were capable of brilliant science even before the c'tan gave them further knowledge. It is not unfeasible to think they could modify certain technologies to better work on the c'tan. Remember the gk use tesseract labyrinths to imprison daemons? Maybe following the intervention of the eldar gods, the labyrinths were designed by the c'tan to imprison their enemies? Again, I wouldn't put it past the necrons to input their own innovations should it prove advantageous. 



> The shard that was in Nightbringer was more believable. Weakened but still powerful, the Nightbringer had wasn't a night omnipotent fraction. I highly doubt that if even one of the Void Dragon's shards were to awaken or return, at what we saw it capable of in Mechanicum, anything in the Imperium or Necron forces would be able to stop it from taking out Mars's defenses and unite with the other shard there. Waaaay too powerful.


You're assuming it has the knowledge of being shattered into shards, or even knowledge of the necrons. This particular Dragon Shard seemed wholly obsessed with its defeat at the hands of the Emperor, and it even had trouble remembering that with clarity. Again, unlimited power means little under the restrictions of having such restricted knowledge of what it really is and what it can do. 

The Dragon Shard would have been capable of warping the entire planet, reducing the Emperor to subatomic ash and bleeding the life from the Earth's sun. If it was a threat, it would have defended itself more vigorously. The fact that it didn't lends credence to its inability to perceive things on the scope it once could.


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## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

Why are we assuming that the Emperor wanted to destroy the Dragon (or shard)? By imprisoning it where and how he did, he ensured the rise of the Mechanicum, its affinity for technology, and possibly its relationship with the Imperium. That's a desirable outcome and a good reason _not_ to kill the thing.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Deadeye, you keep on talking about the Mars VD shard trying to reunite its other shards, ignoring that it specifically states in the C'tan Shard Codex entry that _none_ of the shards even realize that they _are_ shards.



> Necron Codex, Pg. 40, second paragraph
> 
> Whilst no individual C'tan Shard has full recall of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far vaster and more puissant being.


So why would the Void Dragon Shard on Mars search out for its other Shard when it doesn't even realize that it is a fragment of something greater?


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Another interesting thing to note, is that in _Deliverence Lost,_ the Dragon cultist speaks about the cult in a way that makes it seem like it is very much alive. Then, in _The Primarchs_, a different techpriest says the cult is now defunct but that he was part of it at some point. Obviously there can't be that much of a gap in time between the two novels for the cult to have been destroyed, and also obviously they wouldn't have brought it up again if it didn't mean something.


Isn't it most likely that the techpriest in _The Primarchs _simply lied, and he was still part of the Cult? After all, what was he going to say, "Yes, I am still part of this heretical cult which worships an alien god (this in the time of the ultra-secular great crusade era) and wants to help it take over the galaxy."


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> A fraction of its mind, not its power. Remember, each shard still possesses the near unlimited power of its forebear, it is reasonable to assume that this would include their inherent resilience. The Dragon Shard was at a reduced mental capacity, not reduced power. You keep harping on about the thing being too powerful to make sense, ignoring our repeated answers that the shards DO NOT HAVE THE WIT TO USE THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. Their minds and memories are what was fractured remember? This was precisely the necons' plan, not to destroy them, but to make them more manageable.


No wit huh? So how and why is it trying to seduce the new guardian of the labrynth with power if she allows his freedom. Not only her, but it's stated in Mechanicum that the Dragon always does this to all the Guardian and it is their tribulation to resist his offers, like Satan. He's in Hell but he still has wit to seduce others to give him their souls in exchange for power. That's pretty much what it's doing in the cave. Believe what you want. But you can't pass this crap off as true canon that flows with the old.Creatures of diminished wit and awareness of their previous strength don't dream about how powerful they use to be and how they use to wipe out civilzations because it's Friday. They don't KNOW, not think, but KNOW that they have no real name because such things are beneath a being of its power. 

In the book it made the girl who was the new guardian question her own identity to make the feel as if she was the actual Dragon. Whatever the creature in Mechanicum is, it may not remember being sharded (lol, sounds pretty funny if you think about it) by the 'Crons but it damn sure remembers who and what it is. That is not supposed to be the case.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Of course Deadeye, because the Shards still have much of what they were in terms of their minds and personality. For instance all the Deceiver Shards have the same manipulative, scheming minds and each one would consider itself the Deceiver. They just can't realize that they are incomplete, fractured beings. So the Dragon of Mars would think of itself as the Void Dragon, never realizing that it is only a piece of the Void Dragon.

Plus the C'tan and their Shard exist on a whole other level from us. All of what you're saying sounds like you're trying to apply human level mentality and consciousness to beings are god-like in comparison to humans. Personally I have no doubt that even the damaged mind and consciousness of the Shards are utterly beyond us.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> No wit huh? So how and why is it trying to seduce the new guardian of the labrynth with power if she allows his freedom. Not only her, but it's stated in Mechanicum that the Dragon always does this to all the Guardian and it is their tribulation to resist his offers, like Satan. He's in Hell but he still has wit to seduce others to give him their souls in exchange for power. That's pretty much what it's doing in the cave. Believe what you want. But you can't pass this crap off as true canon that flows with the old.Creatures of diminished wit and awareness of their previous strength don't dream about how powerful they use to be and how they use to wipe out civilzations because it's Friday. They don't KNOW, not think, but KNOW that they have no real name because such things are beneath a being of its power.
> 
> In the book it made the girl who was the new guardian question her own identity to make the feel as if she was the actual Dragon. Whatever the creature in Mechanicum is, it may not remember being sharded (lol, sounds pretty funny if you think about it) by the 'Crons but it damn sure remembers who and what it is. That is not supposed to be the case.


Not the wit to use its full potential. I did not claim it had no wit at all. In the Nightbringer Kasmir DeValtos was similarly manipulated by the shard. It used him to remember emotions it had forgotten while dormant. 

It stands to reason that manipulating mortals is an inherent trait they all possess. In this case I would presume that the Dragon was attempting to garner empathy and fool the girl into releasing it, perhaps by having her break the seal that kept "her" imprisoned.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So your saying now that the Dragon and Nightbringer remember themselves, just not that they are fragments? Okay, here's my point and before you shoot it down please see my reasoning. The Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the history of the universe right? The Old Ones, as a race, were close to or even collectively to the Emperor. Maybe depending on your sources but they were up there. If a shard of this creature was beyond the Emperor's ability to destroy with all his power at his peak, how the hell were the Old Ones able to defeat not only the Void Dragon in it's entirety but also the rest of the complete C'tan. They defeated them and which caused the C'tan/Necron alliance. So a weakened fragment of the greater whole could not be destroyed the the most powerful psyker in the materium that causes warp gods pause, but the Old Ones defeat the complete Dragon and all of his species requiring them to enter into a doomed alliance with the Necrons? See how this looks to me? You've got a complete Void Dragon at full power, NightBringer, Deciever, Flayer, etc being defeated by the Old Ones at full power. However a fragment of this creature could not be destroyed, as it says in Mechanicum, by the Emperor even if he'd wanted too. 

When I said it didn't fit with the fluff this is what I mean.The Dragon was written too powerful in Mechanicum. The Nightbringer actually, I will admit, makes a lot more sense with the new fluff. He's weak and is on the verge of dying if he hadn't accepted the deal with Ventris. Seems more like a shard. The fact that the Dragon, while weak and fractured, still could not be destroyed by a being who was as close to a warp god as you could get without existing in the warp completely doesn't make sense. Either the Old Ones were waaaaaay more powerful then the Emperor, which I've actually suggested on here in the past to here that they were not. I forget where but someone corrected me with telling me that the Emperor is the greatest psyker in existence which means he's more than the Old Ones collectively. Care to explain?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Care to explain?


Sure. 

This mystical pre-War in Heaven conflict between the C'tan and Old Ones may not have happened. The exact wording is as follows:



Codex: Necrons said:


> The Deceiver spoke of a war, fought long before the birth of the Necrontyr, between the C’tan and the Old Ones. It was a war, he said, that the C’tan had lost. In the aftermath, and fearing the vengeance of the Old Ones, he and his brothers had hidden themselves away, hoping one day to find allies with whom they could finally bring the Old Ones to account.
> 
> Thus did the Deceiver speak, and who can say how much of his tale was truth? It is doubtful whether even the Deceiver knew, for trickery had become so much a part of his existence that even he could no longer divine its root. Yet his words held sway over Szarekh who, like his ancestors before him, despaired of the divisions that were tearing his people apart.


Its quite plausable that the Deceiver fabricated the tale about a previous C'tan/Old One conflict in order to secure an alliance with the Necrontyr.

Also, you can't compare the power of the Emperor with that of the entire civilisation of the Old Ones. In terms of concrete information, the Emperor defeated a C'tan shard, whilst the Old Ones were defeated by the combined efforts of the C'tan, Necrons and the warp plagues. The Emperor being the most powerful psyker compared to the Old Ones is an irrelevant debate.


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