# Fluff discussion from Know No Fear *Massive Spoilers*



## sadLor

Repeat...massive spoilers. Don't read unless you've read Know No Fear.

Alright, let's not debate on whether the book was actually any good but let's just talk about the content.

*1)* Ollanius Pius is officially in the Horus Heresy canon. His name is Oll, an ex-army farmer on Calth. His actual name is Ollanius Persson and he is an immortal or a Perpetual as the book calls them. He's at least 22,000(Edit 30,000...thanks to Baron Spikey) years old and he's of the same "breed" as John Grammaticus and possibly, the Emperor. It's hinted he will have a HUGE role in upcoming books and he will most likely be at the final confrontation between Horus and the Emperor. 

Personal note : I like that he's ex-army. It explains how he becomes the Saint of the Imperial Guard. He may end up re-enlisting and it's hinted he may join the Navy.

*2)* John Grammaticus is alive and well. There's doubts as to whether he still works for the Cabal. 

From the book:


> Oll : They sent you? I bet they did.
> John : Yes, they did. They did. But I didn't mean them. I meant humans. The human race needs you, Oll.


*3)* There are many Perpetuals out there. John says there are 3 in Ultramar and Oll is the only one on Calth.

*4)* We can pretty much figure out how the Librarians were reformed. Guilliman regrets the Nikea Edict and states that once everything is over, he is going to petition for the reinstatement of the Librarians.

*5)* The 500 worlds of Ultramar. This is a weird one. So sometime after the Heresy, the Ultramar Empire went from over 500 worlds to a few systems.

My theory: Guilliamn sees the hypocrisy of him controlling over 500 worlds when he proposes the Legions split into 1000 strong chapters. He splits his empire willingly to placate Dorn and the others against the forming of chapters. "I'm willing to split up my own empire for my ideals. Now stop being a wuss and split up your IF."

I'm sure I've missed some other important fluff info. So feel free to add something or correct something if I made a mistake.


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## Baron Spikey

Ollanius is over 30,000 years old, it's not clear if he or the Emperor is older.

He was one of the Argonauts who adventured with Jason on the Argo to get the Golden Fleece. He learnt how to fight with a bayonett whilst fighting for the French in the Napoleonic Wars...
He's religious but hates Chaos and considers the Emperor a peer rather than a divinity.

It's mentioned that the commonly held belief is that the role of Warmaster could have only gone to 1 of 4 Primarchs, Horus, Sanguinius, Dorn, or Guilliman. And even then 'Dorn is too draconic, Sanguinius too ethereal'.
It was Horus' charisma and passion that gained him the rank over Guilliman's analytical mind- an honour Guilliman never really wanted as he had a frontier empire to oversee so he would'nt have been able to give the role of Warmaster his all.


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## bitsandkits

is horus in this one or not? or does the Heresy move on any ? and do i need to have read any other of the heresy novels after the first 8 to make any sense of this one?
i ask because i like the sound of the book but if its gonna make no sense i will leave it


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## Baron Spikey

bitsandkits said:


> is horus in this one or not? or does the Heresy move on any ? and do i need to have read any other of the heresy novels after the first 8 to make any sense of this one?
> i ask because i like the sound of the book but if its gonna make no sense i will leave it


Well at one point in the book you're in the Vengeful Spirit Throne Room just after Sangunius confronts Horus and moments before the Emperor does.

But really this is more of a tipping point novel (alongside Fear To Tread later this year), it's clearing the way I suppose you could say for the Siege of Terra- explaining why some protagonists aren't there, the significance of some that are etc.


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## sadLor

Baron Spikey said:


> Ollanius is over 30,000 years old, it's not clear if he or the Emperor is older.
> 
> He was one of the Argonauts who adventured with Jason on the Argo to get the Golden Fleece. He learnt how to fight with a bayonett whilst fighting for the French in the Napoleonic Wars...
> He's religious but hates Chaos and considers the Emperor a peer rather than a divinity.


Good catch. I got the 22,000 number from when he says he wrote a book from 22,000 years ago. I forgot about the chapter where he remembers Jason and wanting the bayonet. Yes, he would have to be at least 30,000 years old to have fought with Jason.

Hmmm... is it possible ALL the Perpetuals were born at the exact same time? I know the old fluff says the Emperor was born when all the shamans on Earth committed suicide and their souls/energy were reborn into one being... Maybe they were actually reborn into a few beings. And each being got some specific special powers? eg - John's ability to speak all languages ... This theory is full of holes though, but just throwing it out there.


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## Baron Spikey

sadLor said:


> Hmmm... is it possible ALL the Perpetuals were born at the exact same time? I know the old fluff says the Emperor was born when all the shamans on Earth committed suicide and their souls/energy were reborn into one being... Maybe they were actually reborn into a few beings. And each being got some specific special powers? eg - John's ability to speak all languages ... This theory is full of holes though, but just throwing it out there.


I dont think so because John says that Ollanius is one of the oldest Perpetuals (and we know John himself is only about a thousand years old), but it is interesting that the conclusion you can draw from that is that Perpetuals aren't consigned to any one time period, they're still being born.


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## bitsandkits

Baron Spikey said:


> Well at one point in the book you're in the Vengeful Spirit Throne Room just after Sangunius confronts Horus and moments before the Emperor does.
> 
> But really this is more of a tipping point novel (alongside Fear To Tread later this year), it's clearing the way I suppose you could say for the Siege of Terra- explaining why some protagonists aren't there, the significance of some that are etc.


so not reading any of the books since the 8th book wont make this hard to follow ?


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## sadLor

Baron Spikey said:


> I dont think so because John says that Ollanius is one of the oldest Perpetuals (and we know John himself is only about a thousand years old), but it is interesting that the conclusion you can draw from that is that Perpetuals aren't consigned to any one time period, they're still being born.


Thanks, you're way better at details than I am. I knew it was full of holes haha. Yea, I wonder how they're going to explain the Perpetuals. It's really out there and I'm finding it hard to reconcile them into the WH40k setting. I hope they have an interesting background... It would be lame if they just said, "Oh, they're just really powerful psychics and that's why they're immortal."

*bitsandkits* - I think you will be fine... but I HIGHLY suggest you read the First Heretic first. It would make a lot more sense if you did. You get an appreciation for the reasons behind Lorgar and his Legion's actions. If you don't really care about the Word Bearers and you just want to see Ultramarines in action, you can probably ignore the First Heretic.


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## Angel of Blood

I only wish Guilliman had successfully killed Kor Phareon when he ripped his heart out, which was awesome btw.

The revelation of Ollanius was possibly the biggest shock moment of the book and a great deal of the other books of the series for that matter, along with the revelation he is one of many immortals possibly as old or older than the Emperor himself. Lends more credit to the Emperor seeing Horus has irrevocably turned when he sees him annihilate a being who has been around as long as he has. 

Mentioned this is another thread, but what do people think about poor Tarik Torgaddon? Now the deamon Tormageddon. Erebus using his remains as part of the sacrifice was saddening enough, but to see him now unwillingly become a daemon of chaos was pretty shocking. Also a point to note for those who haven't read _Salvations Reach_, theres a daemon ship in the book who identifies itself as _Tormageddon Monstrum Rex_, also being by Abnett I would say this probably isn't coincidence. Feel sorry for poor Tarik, possibly suffered one of the worst fates of any of the loyalists killed during the Heresy.


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## Deadeye776

I agree, tarik got screwed but this is a horror story as well as scifi and horrible things happen to good men. I've been wondering where the fluff would end up with the Emperor concerning his power and origin. I really liked the original story but him coming from a race of human immortals works as well. HOWEVER. With this fluff we've got to realize that the Emperor is truly dead. The original fluff,because of how he was created gave the hint that he might be able to reform again like the shamans did originally. In his current fluff I don't see how he can do this as pretty much before Horus the Emperor had never been stricken this low. He's a powerful psyker that's honed his abilities over millenia but I don't think reincarnation is in the cards as this makes him a bit less special. Why? There is a race of men just like him that see him as a peer. Before he was a mythical figure. 

There was a hint that I kind of slipped on in Legion. When John meets the Emperor early in the unification wars he tells him something like guys like us have much to talk about or something. But the guys like us part, I thought he meant psykers. Obviously with this book,it shows he was talking about Perpetuals.


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## Angel of Blood

You say that, yet John has died many times over and been brought back again.


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## Lux

Does this mean Ollanius Pius is still alive to present day (in the fluff)?

Also why was the Emperor so vastly more powerful than the other perpetuals? Does it have anything to do with his "stealing of power from the chaos gods"?


Besides the way I see it, the emperor may have found way to assimilate powers of the warp itself into his own being, but the Chaos gods would see it as the emperor stealing "their power", just different perspectives.


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## randian

Lux said:


> Does this mean Ollanius Pius is still alive to present day (in the fluff)?


Unless they change the fluff, no. Horus still kills him on the Vengeful Spirit. His being a Perpetual means it makes a little more sense why he's in the company of the Emperor, but since he's still otherwise an ordinary human I don't understand why he accompanies the Emperor when He has Astartes. Heck, I don't quite get how he survives the VS itself to get to the control deck.


Lux said:


> Besides the way I see it, the emperor may have found way to assimilate powers of the warp itself into his own being, but the Chaos gods would see it as the emperor stealing "their power", just different perspectives.


I can see that. It's the extreme narcissist's version of theft: somebody else taking what isn't yours, but which you think should be yours.


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## Baron Spikey

randian said:


> Unless they change the fluff, no. Horus still kills him on the Vengeful Spirit. His being a Perpetual means it makes a little more sense why he's in the company of the Emperor, but since he's still otherwise an ordinary human I don't understand why he accompanies the Emperor when He has Astartes. Heck, I don't quite get how he survives the VS itself to get to the control deck.
> 
> I can see that. It's the extreme narcissist's version of theft: somebody else taking what isn't yours, but which you think should be yours.


Well I imagine when you're over 30,000 years old you pick up a few tricks to avoid trouble even if you're not a psyker or a genetically modified killing machine, and who said he accompanies the Emperor?


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## randian

Baron Spikey said:


> Well I imagine when you're over 30,000 years old you pick up a few tricks to avoid trouble even if you're not a psyker or a genetically modified killing machine


The Vengeful Spirit is no mere trouble, it's the hell of Chaos made physical. He probably just won a 1-in-a-trillion bet.


Baron Spikey said:


> and who said he accompanies the Emperor?


How else do you explain his presence on the Vengeful Spirit? Teleporters affect an area approximately circular in shape. There's no way he could sneak into the teleport area, not with two Primarchs, the Emperor, and numerous Astartes getting ready to make a teleportation boarding action.


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## Deadeye776

Angel of Blood said:


> You say that, yet John has died many times over and been brought back again.


 



If you've ever seen the show Highlander I think maybe their "deaths" are what he experiances. Like dying and then coming back. When I said reincarnation, the original fluff explained why the Emperor has godlike power. This new possible explanation explains his longevity but as to his power leaves us wanting. How is he this powerful compared to his "peers." Olly and John have subtle abilities or none. The Emperor is practically power personified. How'd he get it. Maybe the Heresy is going to rewrite everything we thought we knew of 40k. Fine by me. I do believe we will have to wait till the final Novel of the Seige to really find out what the Emperor is. Why? Well the final confrontation with Horus can only be told be one person eyes......The Emperor. As the sole survivor of the conflict (Sanguinius,Pious,and Horus being slain) I think the final book will be about the Emperor.


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## Angel of Blood

randian said:


> The Vengeful Spirit is no mere trouble, it's the hell of Chaos made physical. He probably just won a 1-in-a-trillion bet.
> 
> How else do you explain his presence on the Vengeful Spirit? Teleporters affect an area approximately circular in shape. There's no way he could sneak into the teleport area, not with two Primarchs, the Emperor, and numerous Astartes getting ready to make a teleportation boarding action.


Well at the end of the book he cuts a tear in reality and steps through it to leave Calth, maybe thats how.


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## Deadeye776

randian said:


> The Vengeful Spirit is no mere trouble, it's the hell of Chaos made physical. He probably just won a 1-in-a-trillion bet.
> 
> Okay, here we go. Maybe you should read exactly what went down with Jason and Argonaughts. Most of those men while exceptionsal (not Hercules obviously) were normal men with courage. Here's a list of what they handled:
> 
> race of giants with six arms
> Harpies
> fire-breathing oxen
> sleepless dragon
> Sirens
> Talos the Bronze man
> 
> So I think it's safe to assume that maybe normal men came a bit tougher as most of these were handled by either Jason (no augmentations) or the other normal argonaughts. For you to say that after this he's lucky to have made it through the Vengeful Spirit is a bit underestimating him. If he was in a league to accomplish the above stated challenges in his early years, let's fast forward thousands of years with tech,weapons,tactics,and experianced gained your looking at probably one of the most dangerous humans in the 40k....easy.
> 
> How else do you explain his presence on the Vengeful Spirit? Teleporters affect an area approximately circular in shape. There's no way he could sneak into the teleport area, not with two Primarchs, the Emperor, and numerous Astartes getting ready to make a teleportation boarding action.


 


Um, maybe they asked him to come. He's older than everyone you just named off except for the Emperor. Actually he's older than everyone on the Vengeful spirit with the exception of daemons and daemon princes in some cases. This guy had already mad edged and projectille weapons combat before the Astartes and Primarchs were a wet dream. If you think they're post human status puts them above him look it like this. He's taken down monsters and contended with pagan gods. I think this guy knows how to kill pretty much anything that's ever walked the earth. Who knows what he's really capable of,but he's been a warrior for thousands upon thousands of years. I don't think it's fair to say he'd have to sneek on to the vengeful spirit. In all honesty he probably has encountered Chaos before and knew how to deal with it.


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## Lux

I for don't think he "died"....like his other "peer" I think he can come back


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## MontytheMighty

Well, I'm guessing the Emperor is the most powerful psyker among the Perpetuals (who aren't all psykers)


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## chand223

My only issue with the book was how easily Kor Phaeron handled Guilliman. He has to be amongst the list of top Psykers after that display.


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## Deadeye776

Phaeron is up there in favor with the Gods. He's one of the originals even before Lorgar and you saw how badass his upgrade made him. I don't think it was that easy for him but I'm pretty sure if he's going to take down Gulliman the gods would oblige him all the power he wants. Besides don't worry, we all know Fulgrim/Lord of Shadows finishes the job later on.


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## Barnster

Could the perceptuals also explain the sigilitte? We know theres something special about malcador beyond being a psyker....


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## Angel of Blood

Don't forget Guilliman had recently spent a good length of time outside of the ship with no helmet, does say he looks pretty bad after it.


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## mob16151

Barnster said:


> Could the perceptuals also explain the sigilitte? We know theres something special about malcador beyond being a psyker....


It would make sense, I'm still spouting my Malcador is Narthan Durme theory though.


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## mc wazzahamma

perpetuals = sensai ?


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## Deadeye776

mc wazzahamma said:


> perpetuals = sensai ?


 


Not even close. The view the Emperor as a peer or douchbag not a father figure.


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## mc wazzahamma

What? Like some of the primarchs did?


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## Angel of Blood

In a completely different way. Even Horus accepted that the Emperor is his father, he just hated him.


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## Words_of_Truth

Hmm I take it the vision Lorgar gets during Aurelian is set in the same location Kor Phaeron ends up facing Guilliman at in Know No Fear. Quite surprised that Guilliman was close to Ferrus, I always considered Ferrus to be a hot head, kind of against what Roboute would want. 

Also find it funny that the Lion wasn't mentioned, despite the fact he's also very tactically brilliant, but obviously not reliable enough even at that stage.


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## Deadeye776

mc wazzahamma said:


> What? Like some of the primarchs did?


 


Unlike the rest of us I have a suspicion that the perpertuals know or have an idea what the Emperor really is. Same thing like mutants in the Xmen. There are mutants of varying power such as Magneto and Apocalypse that are extremely powerful. I think the perpetuals are the same way. They know that though he's very powerful he's not a god,and unlike the Sensei he's not their father. I meant peer as in he is like them a perpetual. I think Malcador is one of them as well.The only thing I wonder is in Deliverance Lost is how the Emperor is human or even a perpetual and does not have a true face. That's bordering on warp creature.


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## Angel of Blood

Words_of_Truth said:


> Also find it funny that the Lion wasn't mentioned, despite the fact he's also very tactically brilliant, but obviously not reliable enough even at that stage.


How is The Lion not being in Guillimans favourite four an indication that he isn't reliable? Theres nothing to suggest The Lion was ever unreliable or considered so by his brothers. Only Kurze believes The Lion may be seen in such a way after their battle, but that was his own doing and he knew it. Guilliman still clearly sees The Lion to be reliable during the Heresy as he calls on him to aid him in his objectives. 

Maybe he simply didn't get on with The Lion. That and they are both excellent strategists, could easily create clashing personalities, both wanting to be in charge of the campaigns strategy, where as the likes of Ferrus could be directed more easily.


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## Words_of_Truth

Angel of Blood said:


> How is The Lion not being in Guillimans favourite four an indication that he isn't reliable? Theres nothing to suggest The Lion was ever unreliable or considered so by his brothers. Only Kurze believes The Lion may be seen in such a way after their battle, but that was his own doing and he knew it. Guilliman still clearly sees The Lion to be reliable during the Heresy as he calls on him to aid him in his objectives.
> 
> Maybe he simply didn't get on with The Lion. That and they are both excellent strategists, could easily create clashing personalities, both wanting to be in charge of the campaigns strategy, where as the likes of Ferrus could be directed more easily.


Because he calls them the _Dauntless Few_, the only ones he knows he can truly rely on to do what they are supposed to do.


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## Angel of Blood

Such as not taking their own initiative and changing the battle plan on a whim, which is something The Lion, Corax and The Khan might all be expected to do. The Khan and Corax both relying on rapid, lightning fast attacks which need a constantly evolving and changing battle plan, doubt it would work so well with Guilliman telling them what to do constantly. And The Lion being as tactically and strategically brilliant as he was would, like I said before, probably want to do his own thing, with good reason rather than cede the planning to Guilliman. You seem to imply The Lion is not reliable because he can't be trusted in a bad 'fence sitter traitor' kind of way people seem to still insist on seeing him as.


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## Words_of_Truth

Angel of Blood said:


> Such as not taking their own initiative and changing the battle plan on a whim, which is something The Lion, Corax and The Khan might all be expected to do. The Khan and Corax both relying on rapid, lightning fast attacks which need a constantly evolving and changing battle plan, doubt it would work so well with Guilliman telling them what to do constantly. And The Lion being as tactically and strategically brilliant as he was would, like I said before, probably want to do his own thing, with good reason rather than cede the planning to Guilliman. You seem to imply The Lion is not reliable because he can't be trusted in a bad 'fence sitter traitor' kind of way people seem to still insist on seeing him as.


No, it's just that Guilliman's Dauntless Few are those that he knows will do what's needed to be done to win a battle, people he can rely on to make the difficult decisions, in Ferrus's case it's that he would never give up.

I'll quote the passage:

"Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the _dauntless few_, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they where made to do. Dorn and his legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ is another. Sanguinius a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the white scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. 

With anyone of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius- Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. _Outright_. Against any foe. Even in extremis, the Ultramarines could compact with any one of those four allies and take down any foe. It was the primary theoretical. In any doomsday scenarion that faced the Imperium, Guilliman could play it out to a pratical win provided he could rely on one of those four. And of them, Manus was the key. Implacable. Unshakeable. If he was at your side, he would never break."


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## Angel of Blood

Yes but that still doesn't make The Lion unreliable, nor does it mean he can't make difficult decisions, in fact its plainly clear Jonson is more than capable of making difficult decisions other might baulk at. Either way, again you seem to imply Jonson is regarded as unreliable 'even at this stage' as if he is seen as unreliable at a later date, which frankly is not the case. The only individuals to ever imply Jonson was unreliable in such a way was a manipulative fallen angel and Kurze predicting it might happen to bait The Lion.

Are you suggesting Vulkan and Corax are also unreliable? They've never been portrayed as anything other than unrelenting loyalists, yet they don't make Guillimans list either, a list which I might add seems to be Primarchs who are willing to bow down to Guilliman and let him order them around.

I don't see why your putting so much emphasis on 'dauntless' either, it's simply a word to describe fearlessness or fearless determination, synonymous with bravery. Something every Primarch without fail has an abundance of.


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## Words_of_Truth

I'm on about it in relation to Guilliman's point of view. I wasn't stating they outright weren't it just came as a surprise to see Guilliman actually have such dramatic views on who he could trust, when before I was saw him as a guy who got on with just about everyone apart from Lorgar.

I do think Lion El'jonson is generally unreliable, as he keeps his thoughts to himself, he has ulterior motives which have been evident throughout the novels he's shown up in. 

I would of thought if anyone would of understood the Lion it would of been Guilliman since they share that same niche, at least to me they did, but it appears Guilliman couldn't predict or rely on the Lion since he didn't include him in his group (not putting emphasis on the name, it's just how it's written in the book, I could say the group he trusts if it makes it easier for you.)

He refers to the Khan who he genuinely admires, but his reasons for not including him in the group of those he can trust is because he couldn't trust or predict him. IF he rated him as much as the Khan he probably would of mentioned him to but leaving the Lion out of this group only leads me to believe Guilliman couldn't rely or trust the Lion, even though his way of war is not that much different to Guillimans tactics.

I can understand why he couldn't trust Corax, since Corax isn't a sword or a shield he's a series of dagger blows that goes as fast as he comes, even Dorn didn't really trust Corax that much if you've read Deliverance Lost. 

I can understand why he couldn't trust or predict Vulkan because he tends to put the life of a normal human above that of his own me so who knows when he's gonna run off to save some of them.

The various other Primarchs have numerous justifiable reasons for Guilliman not trusting them, but what about the Lion the only thing I can identify is the Lion's character and it's pretty clear he's very secretive.


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## gen.ahab

Nothing in that text indicates that Guilliman thought the Lion was unreliable. Your making assumptions based on your own opinions. Unless it specifically states that Guilliman thought that the Lion was unreliable, than there could be any number of reasons why he was not on that list. 

It states that he favored those 4 primarchs and trusted them the most, but it does not say that everyone not on that list was unreliable or untrustworthy.


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## MontytheMighty

I think the Lion was much too sullen and secretive to be a good Warmaster 
I would've voted for Sanguinius


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## Words_of_Truth

I'm not inferring anything. The Lion wasn't on his list of closest friends, he even said while he admired the Khan he couldn't trust or predict him. So anyone else else not included in that list meant that Guilliman couldn't trust them to do what they are supposed to do. The only thing that strikes me there then is the lion is very similar to Guilliman but he's not on that list. Equally even Horus ain't on that list.

I don't see the problem with my thoughts.


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## MontytheMighty

The Lion is very aloof and cold...he resembles Konrad Curze in that he raised himself in a hostile environment
I don't think he'd make a very inspirational leader...he definitely lacks the charisma (even more so than Guilliman)


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## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'm not inferring anything. The Lion wasn't on his list of closest friends, he even said while he admired the Khan he couldn't trust or predict him. So anyone else else not included in that list meant that Guilliman couldn't trust them to do what they are supposed to do. The only thing that strikes me there then is the lion is very similar to Guilliman but he's not on that list. Equally even Horus ain't on that list.
> 
> I don't see the problem with my thoughts.


I see what you are saying. In my opinion, I think that list is very weird. And I'm surprised Dan chose those four. Because it hardly mentions any of the legions that had _awesomeness_ on their record. I can see Dorn. But not the others. 

So why wouldn't the Lion be on that list? I think because Guilliman didn't trust him for being to prideful and ambitious. And the Lion was ambitious.


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## gen.ahab

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'm not inferring anything. The Lion wasn't on his list of closest friends, he even said while he admired the Khan he couldn't trust or predict him. So anyone else else not included in that list meant that Guilliman couldn't trust them to do what they are supposed to do. The only thing that strikes me there then is the lion is very similar to Guilliman but he's not on that list. Equally even Horus ain't on that list.
> 
> I don't see the problem with my thoughts.


If you are not doing that then show me where it explicitly states that anyone not on that list was thought untrustworthy by Guilliman.


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## sadLor

gen.ahab said:


> Nothing in that text indicates that Guilliman thought the Lion was unreliable. Your making assumptions based on your own opinions. Unless it specifically states that Guilliman thought that the Lion was unreliable, than there could be any number of reasons why he was not on that list.
> 
> It states that he favored those 4 primarchs and trusted them the most, but it does not say that everyone not on that list was unreliable or untrustworthy.





> "Gage knows what his primarch means. In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the _dauntless few_, *the ones he can most truly depend upon* to do what they where made to do. Dorn and his legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ is another. Sanguinius a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the white scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few.


It seems people are arguing semantics. If you can't completely trust someone, then they are unreliable. That's the definition of the word. Obviously, there are varying levels of unreliability and it's very possible the Lion is 5th on the list in that Guilliman can depend on the Lion 99% of the time. But if you can't depend on someone 100% of the time, then they are, however barely, unreliable. Put it this way, if we go to war together and I have your back 99 days out of 100... would you still completely trust me?

And no, there isn't other reasons why someone isn't on that list. Guilliman makes it black and white. They ones on the list are *the ones he can most truly depend on to do what they were made to do.* That's as clear cut a definition as you can get.

This is a little contentious though so let's just agree on this. *Guilliman trusts Ferrus, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn more than the Lion and the others.* No one can deny that statement. As to why? I have no idea... I never really got the idea that Guilliman was close to Ferrus. Then again, we don't know too much about the relationships between most brothers. With 20 brothers, it would be crazy trying to see what each brother thought of each other brother.


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## Words_of_Truth

gen.ahab said:


> If you are not doing that then show me where it explicitly states that anyone not on that list was thought untrustworthy by Guilliman.





sadLor said:


> It seems people are arguing semantics. If you can't completely trust someone, then they are unreliable. That's the definition of the word. Obviously, there are varying levels of unreliability and it's very possible the Lion is 5th on the list in that Guilliman can depend on the Lion 99% of the time. But if you can't depend on someone 100% of the time, then they are, however barely, unreliable. Put it this way, if we go to war together and I have your back 99 days out of 100... would you still completely trust me?
> 
> And no, there isn't other reasons why someone isn't on that list. Guilliman makes it black and white. They ones on the list are *the ones he can mostly truly depend on to do what they were made to do.* That's as clear cut a definition as you can get.
> 
> This is a little contentious though so let's just agree on this. *Guilliman trusts Ferrus, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn more than the Lion and the others.* No one can deny that statement. As to why? I have no idea... I never really got the idea that Guilliman was close to Ferrus. Then again, we don't know too much about the relationships between most brothers. With 20 brothers, it would be crazy trying to see what each brother thought of each other brother.


Exactly, he only trusts those four 100% thus anyone else isn't 100% reliable from Guilliman's point of view.


----------



## Angel of Blood

ckcrawford said:


> I see what you are saying. In my opinion, I think that list is very weird. And I'm surprised Dan chose those four. Because it hardly mentions any of the legions that had _awesomeness_ on their record. I can see Dorn. But not the others.


Well the Blood Angels were the Emperors honor guard Legion, got to stand for something. And the Space Wolves reputation speaks for themselves.

I still don't see this view everyone has of The Lion, people still seem to insist on basing opinions of him off Astelan. From the novels he doesn't seem to be any more secretive than the other Primarchs, certainly less secretive than Corax, Alpharius, even Magnus and Russ in their own way. All of them are highly ambitious, he may be up there, but the likes of Horus(obviously) and Guilliman are right up there with him. I certainly don't see him as being particularly cold and aloof as people seem to think, especially when you compare him to say Perturabo and Mortarion. As for lacking charisma, he seems to do just fine with his Legion, hell he had one of the highest victory count of the Crusade, must be pretty damn inspirational to do so. Again plenty of other Primarchs show just as much(or little if thats what you believe) charisma as Jonson, alot even less.

As for the the unreliable comments, or untrustworthy. Guilliman specifically singles out The Khan as being untrustworthy, but none of the others. The very fact that he didn't group the others with The Khan is more of an indication that he was the only one he found untrustworthy, the rest likely for different reasons.

Again on unreliable. If you describe someone as an unreliable person, that generally means that for most of the time and on average they aren't reliable and are a bit of a risk. Someone who is pretty much always there for you, will do exactly as you want and ask and is generally a very reliable person, but every once in a while, maybe once out of a hundred might not do it or deviate slightly does not make them unreliable. My best mate is pretty much always there to help out if somethings gone tits up, always up for a night out and just a generally good guy, but yeah everyonce in a while he might not be there to help for some reaosn or another or he might do something else. But I would never describe him as unreliable, because it simply isn't the case, he's(like The Lion I would say) hugely reliable, just not 100% because tbf no one really is, apart from the dauntless few somehow.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The dauntless few are, in my mind, 100% reliable because they know their reason for being, they know why they exist, the others have other beliefs, other motives, other reasons. Dorn, Russ, Sanguinius and Manus would sacrifice themselves and their legion to accomplish what needs to be done, others would not. 

This shows when Vulkan and Corax break from the massacre at Istvaan, when Corax attempts to resurrect his legion rather than defend the Emperor. When Vulkan puts the lives of his legion after that of those slaves under the Eldar. When Mortarion would rather wipe everything out than hold back thus costing the war effort materials etc etc this could be applied to all those Primarchs according to Guilliman apart from those dauntless few.


----------



## sadLor

Words_of_Truth said:


> The dauntless few are, in my mind, 100% reliable because they know their reason for being, they know why they exist, the others have other beliefs, other motives, other reasons. Dorn, Russ, Sanguinius and Manus would sacrifice themselves and their legion to accomplish what needs to be done, others would not.
> 
> This shows when Vulkan and Corax break from the massacre at Istvaan, when Corax attempts to resurrect his legion rather than defend the Emperor. When Vulkan puts the lives of his legion after that of those slaves under the Eldar. When Mortarion would rather wipe everything out than hold back thus costing the war effort materials etc etc this could be applied to all those Primarchs according to Guilliman apart from those dauntless few.


Good post. 

Look at all the loyal primarchs. (I'm ignoring the traitor ones for obvious reasons)

The Dauntless Few:
Dorn
Sanguinus
Ferrus
Russ

The Remaining Ones:

The Lion: I would have no problem putting him in the Dauntless Few from the info we have on him so far... Who knows though? We're going to read more about him in coming books... we may discover things about him that will shed some light on this. In the HH books on the Lion so far, there have been subordinates of his that has questioned his ability to deal with other people. I can't remember the exact book and chapter but it's there. Maybe this includes his ability to deal with his brothers.

Corax: Obvious... look at Istvaan. He broke from Dorn's battle plan and risked himself and his men for revenge and pride.

Vulkan: I would say his weakness might be his compassion. The Emperor even says in one of the short stories that he's the most compassionate out of all the primarchs. Would he turn a blind eye to innocents suffering to follow thru with a battle plan 100%? Would he sacrifice innocents for the greater good? 

The Khan: We know too little about him to say...

Honestly, it's a pretty good list ... Ferrus being the surprise addition.


----------



## ckcrawford

I honestly think that part was retarded. Something designed to make some controversy, but thats about it. 

If you would put Guilliman with any of the top five legions (in terms of record) or even the bigger legions like the (untainted Word Bearers) the sheer amount of astartes and/or tactic could beat any other legion. He does have 250,000 of astartes alone. So thats like having almost three legions at his side.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

He said in a doomsday scenario though.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Also, from the end of Savage Weapons, we can see that Guilliman clearly does trust the Lion and think he is reliable enough to recruit into his, almost heretical plan(a lot of people would definitely see it as heretical).

Plus I can't quite see who wouldn't want the Lion at their side in a doomsday scenario. Along with Horus, Dorn and Guilliman himself(which would be hard not to with his legions size), Jonson had the most amount of victories in the Crusade than all the other Primarchs having only been active for the last 50 years. Who wouldn't want someone with such an outstanding combat record standing with them. Which leads me again to suspect the reason Guilliman wouldn't want the Lion by his side, is not because he was unreliable or untrustworthy, but because he would want command aswell, and once again, with his martial record, can you blame him?


----------



## CalgarsPimpHand

I have to weigh in on this. I think this isn't intended to cause controversy or cast some primarchs as unreliable. Guilliman is listing the legions who would form a perfect, unified front alongside the Ultramarines, and the reason for this is the common theme among the primarchs he named: the ability to unflinchingly follow orders.

Dorn is a soldier. He is dutiful and will stubbornly see through what needs doing.

Russ is ruthless and savage, but also dog-loyal. He will follow orders without question.

Sanguinius has grace and humility that just about every other primarch lacks, and would work harmoniously with just about any other primarch.

Like others have said, Ferrus Manus is the surprise addition to this list, but he does seem to exhibit unbreakable willpower. He hit the traitors like a battering ram on Istvaan V and would not stop. So maybe Guilliman views Ferrus as a powerful weapon, who unlike Angron or Curze, could actually be controlled.


As for the other primarchs?

Horus is too ambitious. Fulgrim is prideful. Lorgar is obviously not in the running here for Guilliman's favor. Vulkan's empathy is a liability. Angron, Khan, Corax, Curze, Alpharius, Perturabo, all have specific fighting styles with specific purposes which might not mesh perfectly with the Ultramarines methods. Not that this says the primarchs themselves are untrustworthy, but that depending on the situation their lack of flexibility might be a negative.

The Lion and Mortarion are not untrustworthy or unreliable so much as difficult. They have all-comers fighting styles and are very good at what they do, but they do not work well with others.


Guilliman isn't casting aspersions on the trustworthiness of his brothers. He's merely listing the ones he knows would follow his orders to a T and present a unified front against any enemy in any situation.


----------



## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> Plus I can't quite see who wouldn't want the Lion at their side in a doomsday scenario. Along with Horus, Dorn and Guilliman himself(which would be hard not to with his legions size), Jonson had the most amount of victories in the Crusade than all the other Primarchs having only been active for the last 50 years. Who wouldn't want someone with such an outstanding combat record standing with them. Which leads me again to suspect the reason Guilliman wouldn't want the Lion by his side, is not because he was unreliable or untrustworthy, but because he would want command aswell, and once again, with his martial record, can you blame him?


As I said, I think what was said is just stupid. Doomsday Scenario? Whatever the hell that means. Its not even specific. There would be many different doomsday scenarios. Some scenarios would make some of those legions he mentioned fight with weakness. Every Primarch I believe had their strengths and weaknesses. Some more than others. 

Ferrus Manus is stubborn. I don't see how he would fit in (especially since Fulgrim had to prove himself to be his friend). He is disobedient and headstrong, as we saw on Istvaan when he strayed from Dorn's plan. It was Manus' fault that the three loyal legions had fallen into the trap so easy and raped so bad. If that's really Guilliman's opinion, then I would say he has a bad ability to read his brother's characters. 

Russ, though he is loyal, he is utterly loyal. No middle ground. Guilliman's methods in fighting wars uses necessary methods to win wars. Guilliman admitted that the Council of Nikea was the wrong answer. How would Russ react with the Ultramarines being desperate and using psychic powers during a _doomsday_ scenario? I would put Russ at least on the bottom half of my list if I worried about who to trust if it was a Doomsday scenario. He's the type of guy in which you fight by his rules.


----------



## Cowlicker16

If you had 17 brothers of course you would have some favorites. You can count of any of them if you're in a bind but you will have those few that you really trust above the rest, it's not saying he doesn't like all of them it's just saying if you HAD to whittle it down and pick one those are the ones he would pick.


----------



## Deadeye776

Angel of Blood said:


> Also, from the end of Savage Weapons, we can see that Guilliman clearly does trust the Lion and think he is reliable enough to recruit into his, almost heretical plan(a lot of people would definitely see it as heretical).
> 
> Plus I can't quite see who wouldn't want the Lion at their side in a doomsday scenario. Along with Horus, Dorn and Guilliman himself(which would be hard not to with his legions size), Jonson had the most amount of victories in the Crusade than all the other Primarchs having only been active for the last 50 years. Who wouldn't want someone with such an outstanding combat record standing with them. Which leads me again to suspect the reason Guilliman wouldn't want the Lion by his side, is not because he was unreliable or untrustworthy, but because he would want command aswell, and once again, with his martial record, can you blame him?


 


Interesting. I would also draw upon the same book to ask you this. If you look at what the Lion says about Gulliman in the same book, did Johnson trust Gulliman?


----------



## Lux

I believe the primarchs Gulliman listed are those that in his perception align most close to his paradigm of what is "right". Why he can trust them more so than others? Because he is anticipating that those four would align most closely with his vision of what the imperium is, furthermore the four he picked are all followers.

What I mean by this, is that all four display strong symptoms of beta personality patterns, while Gulliman displays alpha patterns. Though others may be superior to the four he listed, or equal in skill and value, no other is a beta personality type that is as compatible with Gullimans alpha patterns as those four are.

Sanguinas = follower and enforcer of the Emperor's word, but not one to create his own word, or twist the emperors word to his own vision.

Russ = complete follower of the emperors word, has the power and skill to carry it out, does not produce his own doctrine or paradigm but adopts the one given to him by his perception of the higher authority.

Dorn = Stubborn, idealistic, skilled, but he is stubborn not in his own ideals but rather completely submerged in the ideals the higher authority hands to him. If Gulliman were to will him to his side in say the scenario of a fallen imperium, and dorn were to perceive gulliman as the higher authority he would follow him without doubt, being stubborn in never wavering from gulliman's ideals. This is what gulliman desires...

Ferrus Mannus = Skilled in smithing, and also a dedicated follower. He stuck to the word and ideals of the emperor to his death, refusing his closest brother and friend Fulgrim, in favor of loyalty to what he perceived as "right" and "true". If the Emperor were to die, and Gulliman filled that idealistic position, ferrus mannus would follow to a strong degree of unwavering faith.


Now why didn't gulliman choose the lion? 

The lion in all the books he is mentioned in display alpha personality patterns, same genre as that of gulliman. The Lion is tacticaly and strategically superior to arguably a great deal of his brothers including the dauntless four...Why didn't gulliman choose him? Well that is due to the Lion having his own paradigm of what is "right" and "true"...of what the emperor truly stood for. 

Gulliman would in all statistical likelihood find it near impossible to effectively manipulate and influence the lion's paradigm, as the lion was not a "follower", but saw himself as a leader. Of which he already stated in several sources that he wanted the position of warmaster.....

If the Emperor were to have died, the imperium fall, the Lion would have sought to align the legions to follow his lead, rather than follow another legion...This is because he perceived himself as the most effective, and efficient for the position...for the greater good to save what was left he would lead rather than follow in some one he doubts.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> I believe the primarchs Gulliman listed are those that in his perception align most close to his paradigm of what is "right". Why he can trust them more so than others? Because he is anticipating that those four would align most closely with his vision of what the imperium is, furthermore the four he picked are all followers.
> 
> What I mean by this, is that all four display strong symptoms of beta personality patterns, while Gulliman displays alpha patterns. Though others may be superior to the four he listed, or equal in skill and value, no other is a beta personality type that is as compatible with Gullimans alpha patterns as those four are.
> 
> Sanguinas = follower and enforcer of the Emperor's word, but not one to create his own word, or twist the emperors word to his own vision.
> 
> Russ = complete follower of the emperors word, has the power and skill to carry it out, does not produce his own doctrine or paradigm but adopts the one given to him by his perception of the higher authority.
> 
> Dorn = Stubborn, idealistic, skilled, but he is stubborn not in his own ideals but rather completely submerged in the ideals the higher authority hands to him. If Gulliman were to will him to his side in say the scenario of a fallen imperium, and dorn were to perceive gulliman as the higher authority he would follow him without doubt, being stubborn in never wavering from gulliman's ideals. This is what gulliman desires...
> 
> Ferrus Mannus = Skilled in smithing, and also a dedicated follower. He stuck to the word and ideals of the emperor to his death, refusing his closest brother and friend Fulgrim, in favor of loyalty to what he perceived as "right" and "true". If the Emperor were to die, and Gulliman filled that idealistic position, ferrus mannus would follow to a strong degree of unwavering faith.
> 
> 
> Now why didn't gulliman choose the lion?
> 
> The lion in all the books he is mentioned in display alpha personality patterns, same genre as that of gulliman. The Lion is tacticaly and strategically superior to arguably a great deal of his brothers including the dauntless four...Why didn't gulliman choose him? Well that is due to the Lion having his own paradigm of what is "right" and "true"...of what the emperor truly stood for.
> 
> Gulliman would in all statistical likelihood find it near impossible to effectively manipulate and influence the lion's paradigm, as the lion was not a "follower", but saw himself as a leader. Of which he already stated in several sources that he wanted the position of warmaster.....
> 
> If the Emperor were to have died, the imperium fall, the Lion would have sought to align the legions to follow his lead, rather than follow another legion...This is because he perceived himself as the most effective, and efficient for the position...for the greater good to save what was left he would lead rather than follow in some one he doubts.


Genuine +rep to you here Lux! Very good thought process.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

thats the first total sense comment ive ever seen lux post and it really hits the nail on the head, good show sir.

i am curious as to how ferrus mannus percieves the emperor and his plan as with ferrus and his mob being more omnissiah orientated could they have a different outlook on the great crusade but one which still leads them to fit in the same circle as dorn,sang and russ who are all totally loyal to their father and his ideals.


----------



## kwak76

After Battle of Calth most of the Ultramarine got wiped out. I think maybe just 30,000 survivors on Calth alone but I think there were 50,000 other Ultramarines in other planets or not accounted for. In the book about 20 chapters were present at Calth. So that's about 200,000. According to most fluff there should be 250,000. Or is actually 200,000 ? 

So that means roughly 80,000 Ultramarines were left? or 30,000? 

How about the world Bearers? Horus instructed both Logar and Roberto to work together and bring their alliances together so that means majority of the World Bearers were present at the Battle of Calth . From reading "Known No Fear", I think some of the World Bearers escape but the ones left behind got wiped out. 

To me I think the World Bearers achieve there goals and crippled the Ultramarine but as the novel would say did not finish the job which would bite the traitor later.


----------



## kwak76

Athame . Kor Phaeron would use this on Guilliman . I mean not stab him with it but he wanted to before Guilliman crush Kor Phaeron heart out. Should of crush both hearts instead of just that primary one. 

Which leads me to Athame. It's suppose to be just some blade but a special chaos blade? I think it's the same blade that was use on Horus to sicken him and win him over to chaos. 

It's also the same type of blade that Ventanus use to kill a deamon. The question is athame a warp weapon? and if it is effective against deamon why not use more of it? 

Plus supposedly Guilliman is in stasis with a athame stab in his neck. It took deamons or warp power to heal horus. Is it possible to use something of that power to heal Guilliman back? I mean not deamonic powers but I mean if athame is warp something couldn't there be possible counter out there?


----------



## Cowlicker16

The athemes were kinda confusing to me at first but I started to think that maybe they were the some of the first demon-weapons to be widely used


----------



## Baron Spikey

kwak76 said:


> Which leads me to Athame. It's suppose to be just some blade but a special chaos blade? I think it's the same blade that was use on Horus to sicken him and win him over to chaos.


It's not the same blade, if it was the same blade Guilliman would be dead.



kwak76 said:


> It's also the same type of blade that Ventanus use to kill a deamon. The question is athame a warp weapon? and if it is effective against deamon why not use more of it?


An Athame is a type of ritual blade, no more magical than a broad sword unless it is endowed with some special properties- as the ones in _Know No Fear_ were.


----------



## mob16151

Are we talking about Anathames? (Heck if I know what the plural for anathame is)

One example was a blade known as an Anathame, dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle. If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kinebrach


----------



## Words_of_Truth

That's what poisoned Horus and made him susceptible to corruption.


----------



## Baron Spikey

mob16151 said:


> Are we talking about Anathames? (Heck if I know what the plural for anathame is)
> 
> One example was a blade known as an Anathame, dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle. If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them
> 
> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kinebrach


People seem to have confused The *Anathame* with the *Athames* in _Know No Fear_- notice the different spelling? That isn't a slip up on mine or Abnett's part.

The Anathame wasn't dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle- it was used by a Nurglite but that's all.


----------



## Warlock in Training

ckcrawford said:


> As I said, I think what was said is just stupid. Doomsday Scenario? Whatever the hell that means. Its not even specific. There would be many different doomsday scenarios. Some scenarios would make some of those legions he mentioned fight with weakness. Every Primarch I believe had their strengths and weaknesses. Some more than others.
> 
> Ferrus Manus is stubborn. I don't see how he would fit in (especially since Fulgrim had to prove himself to be his friend). He is disobedient and headstrong, as we saw on Istvaan when he strayed from Dorn's plan. It was Manus' fault that the three loyal legions had fallen into the trap so easy and raped so bad. If that's really Guilliman's opinion, then I would say he has a bad ability to read his brother's characters.
> 
> Russ, though he is loyal, he is utterly loyal. No middle ground. Guilliman's methods in fighting wars uses necessary methods to win wars. Guilliman admitted that the Council of Nikea was the wrong answer. How would Russ react with the Ultramarines being desperate and using psychic powers during a _doomsday_ scenario? I would put Russ at least on the bottom half of my list if I worried about who to trust if it was a Doomsday scenario. He's the type of guy in which you fight by his rules.


Agreed. I really dont see this whole Guilliman picking the best 4 crap. If anything I think the Author prove how stupid and confindent Guilliman was at times. 

Lux says Beta Personalities. Sangy and Manus for sure, but Russ?! This guy was the one who gave Guilly the hardest time about splitting his Legion. Then ontop of that he gave the Finger by having 13 Companies of varying size. Then Manus did his own thing on Istvaan by charging headlong like a moron. Dorn also had following issues with Guilliman Chapter breakdown.

Then as some said why not Lion? Sure he might tell Guillyman F**k You, but so would Russ and Manus depending on the situation. 

Its all really piss poorly explain and shows flaws in Guillimans judgement.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

As I said, they where the only four he could rely on to do what they where meant to do and that was destroy the enemies of the Emperor or die trying.


----------



## mob16151

Baron Spikey said:


> People seem to have confused The *Anathame* with the *Athames* in _Know No Fear_- notice the different spelling? That isn't a slip up on mine or Abnett's part.
> 
> The Anathame wasn't dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle- it was used by a Nurglite but that's all.


I do notice the different spelling's, that would be why I requested further clarification.

And as far as I'm aware, that is the correct definition of an Anathame, seeing as the poison weapon, also worked for the Kinnebracht, who as a species, had no real ties to Nurgle. Neither did Eugen Temba, until he received the weapon, to the best of my recollection.


----------



## ckcrawford

kwak76 said:


> After Battle of Calth most of the Ultramarine got wiped out. I think maybe just 30,000 survivors on Calth alone but I think there were 50,000 other Ultramarines in other planets or not accounted for. In the book about 20 chapters were present at Calth. So that's about 200,000. According to most fluff there should be 250,000. Or is actually 200,000 ?
> 
> So that means roughly 80,000 Ultramarines were left? or 30,000?
> 
> How about the world Bearers? Horus instructed both Logar and Roberto to work together and bring their alliances together so that means majority of the World Bearers were present at the Battle of Calth . From reading "Known No Fear", I think some of the World Bearers escape but the ones left behind got wiped out.
> 
> To me I think the World Bearers achieve there goals and crippled the Ultramarine but as the novel would say did not finish the job which would bite the traitor later.


There are 50,000 Ultramarines that were off defending the rest of the Eastern Fringe. 

But honestly, i don't think it would be accurate to say 80,000 Ultramarines were left after Calth. We have 30,000 which was a number taken before they pushed the Word Bearers out of Calth. That in itself would have Cost a lot of lives. And then you also have Ultramarines that were stuck on Calth when they got into the apocolypse situation and had to go underground. 

If it really was 80,000 astartes left, that would be interesting. Because that is a whole legion still at good enough strength.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

In regards to the perpetuals, I would just like to point out that the Emperor being one of these mysterious individuals is not certain - though has seemed to have been assumed by most in this thread.



kwak76 said:


> After Battle of Calth most of the Ultramarine got wiped out. I think maybe just 30,000 survivors on Calth alone but I think there were 50,000 other Ultramarines in other planets or not accounted for. In the book about 20 chapters were present at Calth. So that's about 200,000. According to most fluff there should be 250,000. Or is actually 200,000 ?
> 
> So that means roughly 80,000 Ultramarines were left? or 30,000?
> 
> How about the world Bearers? Horus instructed both Logar and Roberto to work together and bring their alliances together so that means majority of the World Bearers were present at the Battle of Calth . From reading "Known No Fear", I think some of the World Bearers escape but the ones left behind got wiped out.
> 
> To me I think the World Bearers achieve there goals and crippled the Ultramarine but as the novel would say did not finish the job which would bite the traitor later.


200,000 Ultramarines were mustered at Calth, with the remaining 50,000 maintaining garrison of the Ultramar Empire and not being involved in the War of Calth. Before the XVII turned on them, the XIII were under the impression that 50,000 Word Bearers had been assigned to fight alongside them against the Greenskins. Whether only 50,000 Word Bearers turned up or not though is another matter.

The post-Calth numerical strength of the XIII would at most have been 80,000. Likely to have been less than that though.


----------



## Deadeye776

Ok this whole loyalty thread in regards to gulliman is bullshit. The reason even the legions he listed gave him a hard time like Russ is that their loyalties are to th Emp and then the I
Imperium, not douchebag gulliman.


----------



## Deadeye776

Ok this whole loyalty thread in regards to gulliman is bullshit. The reason even the legions he listed gave him a hard time like Russ is that their loyalties are to th Emp and then the Imperium, not douchebag gulliman.


----------



## Phoebus

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The post-Calth numerical strength of the XIII would at most have been 80,000. Likely to have been less than that though.


What's driving that? Am I missing something?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Phoebus said:


> What's driving that? Am I missing something?


IIRC _Know No Fear_ states that 30,000 Astartes survived Calth (prior to the Underworld War). Add that to the 50,000 that weren't involved in the Calth War gives us a maximum of 80,000. Although it would be less than that when the casualties of the Underworld War are taken into account.


----------



## Phoebus

You are correct. Chapter 3, USHKUL/THU, has the Magos declare that as many as 30,000 Ultramarines are across Calth. I'd posit, though, that there were yet more Ultramarines aboard those warships that survived. Not a significant amount in the grand scheme of things, but I wouldn't be surprised if an additional 10,000 more made that way.

Either way, I think it's clear that a bulk of the subsequent numbers featured later, in the Scouring (see "Void Stalker" excerpts, Codex: Grey Knights), came thanks to Guilliman's apparent focus on recruitment and rebuilding versus trying to jump back into the Heresy.

That was one nice thing about "Know No Fear", by the way:



Kor Phaeron's Warp storms absolve Guilliman of a lot of the hate he got following "Age of Darkness", when it looked like he was just stepping out to serve his ambition.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Phoebus said:


> You are correct. Chapter 3, USHKUL/THU, has the Magos declare that as many as 30,000 Ultramarines are across Calth. I'd posit, though, that there were yet more Ultramarines aboard those warships that survived. Not a significant amount in the grand scheme of things, but I wouldn't be surprised if an additional 10,000 more made that way.


Indeed. But given casualties suffered in the Underground War, 80,000 immediately post-Calth would be a reasonable estimate - including those Astartes who were scattered amongst the fleet.



Phoebus said:


> Either way, I think it's clear that a bulk of the subsequent numbers featured later, in the Scouring (see "Void Stalker" excerpts, Codex: Grey Knights), came thanks to Guilliman's apparent focus on recruitment and rebuilding versus trying to jump back into the Heresy.
> 
> That was one nice thing about "Know No Fear", by the way:
> 
> 
> 
> Kor Phaeron's Warp storms absolve Guilliman of a lot of the hate he got following "Age of Darkness", when it looked like he was just stepping out to serve his ambition.


Yeah that certainly seems to be the case. Although _Rules of Engagement_ did seem to suggest that even if Guilliman had the option of rushing headlong to Terra he wouldn't have done. But it seems that his decision not to (or inability to) is what ensured the Imperium survived post-Heresy.


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## Will21983

Did anyone else notice the "Pearsonne Olivier" character in Kruger's tripped out khorne flash backs? (Angel Exterminatus spoilers)


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