# Which army do you believe needs the most stratigizing to play?



## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

Which army do you think has to have alot of planning ie you need to think about your next move and depending on what the other player does alters your plans?

IS the Hardest to use


----------



## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

I would have to say Tau are pretty tough to use because they're only good at shooting. Trying to keep the enemy chasing you around can be difficult because you eventually run out of places to hide. I know they have Kroot to help out they are more of a meat shield then an elite assault force IMO.

A close second I feel would be Eldar because their units are so specialized. However once you get the tactics down with them they are very difficult to deal with.


----------



## dakari-mane (Mar 9, 2007)

Ok bl0203 dont take this the wrong way but I am going to start laughing at you now :laugh:
You just chose the 2 most competative 40k armies in the game at the moment. Frankly mech Eldar & Tau have very well established tactics already in place & very little creative thought is needed to do well with them only when you start facing really good players will the tactics need to be varied/adapted (& then rarely).

The two armies that need the most thought, luck & skill to use are without a shadow of a doubt Witch Hunters & Demon Hunters. Both lists have large weaknesses most notably their lack of decent long ranged firepower, inability to close down a more mobile enemy, high unit cost & low survivability. Which frankly on the 40K battlefield is the Anti-holy-trinity* of 40k.

*Maneauverability, Firepower & Resilience - the HT of 40K k:


----------



## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

I'd say DA and Sisters have a hard time.

First off every army is tailored to screw over 3+ save armies that are far more powerful (Trait Marines, Old Chaos), so do even better against these.

Second your tactics must be different depending on opponent.

For Tau, the tactics are the same regardless of opponent- you try to stay out of combat (very easy with JSJ and mobility) and shoot the high priority targets first, working down the list. Very straightforward. Once you've worked out a competitive list (clue, min FW's), your playstyle is the same every game.

For Eldar, it's spoonfed- this is a unit of Fire Dragons, it kills tanks, send it at tanks. This is a unit of Harliequins, it kills Marines, send it at Marines, etc. Each unit is specialised to do certain things, so just position them to do those things. Never understood the Eldar player mentality that it is some superior act of skill that creates synergy- no it's having the hardest tank in the game and units that are Paint by Numbers.

Whereas a DA Tactical Squad needs to do everything, do you move forward to get into combat, do you sit right back and fire the heavy weapon, do you move into a position where you can fire all weapons? All depends on opponent, enemy units positions, etc. And though they can do each satisfactorily, they can't do as well as a specialist unit in it's given field.

Of course Grey Knights and IG are far harder. IG for example are a static, weedy shooty army in a 4th Ed ruleset dominated by Near-Fearless MEq's, Highly Mobile objective grabbing armies, etc.


----------



## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Dakari-Mane; while I agree there very established armies, I feel there difficult to play when your new to the game. It takes time and practice to fine tune there army lists and tactics IMO. Maybe being a veteran gamer you find it easy to play these armies. However I'm quite new and have a difficult time using these armies.


----------



## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Well in that situation- any army is a learning experience to get to know how it works.

It's just Taudar aren't that hard to use once you've got the right army list.


----------



## QuietEarth (Aug 18, 2007)

I would have to say that the Inquisition armies without added IG elements are perhaps the hardest army to play.

IMO most Space Marine armies are clockwork, just wind them up and let them go. They are a very forgiving army.

Once you realize what you're doing, Eldar and Tau are almost scripted armies.

Dark Eldar, well, I have no experience with them whatsoever.

Necrons I would say are even more forgiving than Space Marines.

Orks, definately the most fun to play.

Tyranids, ummmmm, charge?

IG, well, there is just so much involved in an IG Army that it can be overwhelming at first. Though, with my balanced list I have about a .50 rating. I could always cheese it out and add way more Lascannons and Plasma Guns but I play to have fun and not hear my friends talk about how much they hate Plasma. However, the Battle Tanks are pretty much point and click, very forgiving.

The absolute hardest armies to play though, Deathworld Veterans and Kroot Mercenaries.


----------



## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

When it comes to the level of skill necessary to compete against moderately skilled gamers, the Inquisition takes the cake. The army has been designed more as a 'hobbyist's' army rather than a 'gamer's' army. The background surpasses any to be found in the 40K universe, and the models themselves are many of the best sculpts GW has released to date. The in-game playability of the army is something else entirely. These Ordos rely on the use of other armies to gain any sort of competitive status. Without the use of IG or Space Marines, the Witch/Daemonhunters simply do not have the resiliency or firepower to stand up to the most common tourney armies.

Each other army listed has at least one fairly simple setup that makes completive play easy for even the most novice player.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

I think any footslogging army is pretty difficult to use, because getting your army to the enemy is a lot harder than staying back and shooting as many times as you can before your model dies.


----------



## Frostbite (Oct 17, 2007)

I'd say that the army that requires the most strategizing is Tau. NOT Mech Tau, but doing something entirely different and making it work. When you have to try to work out movement and fire synergy in an army that has only two skimmers and lots of Fire Warriors (No Devilfish), it's actually rather difficult. And all the more rewarding when you do end up winning or at least tying your opponents.

A close second would be IG, I think. With an army that ponderous to move, you have to plan two turns ahead just to figure out wether a unit should move or shoot.

And then third would go to Inquisition I think. So much cool stuff, they cost way too damn much and as such are kind of handicapped. Kudos to anybody who can make a Sisters army work well.

Most of the other armies seem to me to either have every unit laid out perfectly for how to use them, or has only one real tactic, that being move into assault ASAP. Not much tactical skill required for that one.


----------



## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

I put up Necron only cause it can be really difficult when the game isn't 2000 points, and if you're playing a skilled opponent you can only hope they werent expecting Necrons


And they were voted for only cause the Kroot Mercenaries werent up there, I think the Kroot are certainly more fun but to use them effectively would be difficult


----------



## AntiPaladin (Jun 26, 2007)

Dark Eldar, plain and simple. 

First, name one other army that doesn't have access to anything over AV 11 ('Nids don't count, they never have an av)

Second, the only unit in the army list that can have a 3+ save is a bodyguard.

Third, they are the most unforgiving army ever. After one mistake, barring extreme luck or opponent stupidity, the best you can hope for is a draw.


----------



## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

I'll say inquisition, it took me a while to pin down how exactly to use them. I've played with eldar, tau, CSM, SM and IG and it still didnt prepare me for using the sororitas effectivly. Trying to keep them alive is very difficult. With the guard you know they are gonna die and they cost nothing and the tanks are a punch right in the kisser. SM and CSM are very tactically forgiving, mistakes dont cost you very much and they are both pretty good at assault and defence. Tau are a one trick pony. Eldar are quite tricky but if you've got good elites and a strong core of either mechs or troops they can bail you out. Never played the orks, never even seen an ork army on the table so i cant say, but they dont strike me as the sort that think much about tactics. 

Getting the formula for an inquistion army right is hard (if you dont spam exorcists/armour that is) and using it properly is something only lots of experience can give you. Especially with faith points.

I would have said dark eldar but its not exactly the fault of the tactician that they are a hard army to use, its merely a byproduct of their outdated rules. Its like using WW2 weapons against the armies of today.


----------



## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

To be honest Tau, because if you get to close, your kinda screwed, you go to far out youre screwed. Wanna get a easier hit? Markerlight, they do take a little while to make a decent army worthwhile


----------



## Jaymason666 (Dec 6, 2007)

Doesn't playing include choosing the army tho? I haven't played more than a handful of races (marines with a limit, necrons, and nids) but some of the lists are easy to screw up if you don't know what to take. It's easy to go overboard on commanders and such. I'm not totally sure about it, but thats my two cents.


----------



## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

I must agree with the inquisition as the cost alot of points for not very many men, and if you fielded persay Grey Knights in a guard they would soak up alot of fire because IG don't have much else that the opposing player needs to worry about except for maybe some tanks.


----------



## Darkangeldentist (Oct 31, 2007)

The title caught my eye, stratigizing? (Is that really a word?:shok

I would say the Inquisition are probably the hardest to build an effective list and play with it against a variety of foes. They do have a bag of tricks but most of the units have limited options regarding what they can achieve. 

Guard come a close second as their poor quality of troops mean it can often fall apart after a few bad dice rolls. That said they can make some evil lists and will use much the same tactics whatever their opponent. (Stand back and shoot.)

Tau and eldar have a limited range of list setups that are seen to work. These (best build) lists are very effective and quite easy to use. Other (often more interesting) lists can be more difficult and less versatile but that doesn't make the race harder to use, just that way of fielding it. Dark eldar are in a similar boat. Finding a list you both like and is effective can take a long time but once you do the army can almost run itself. It will play roughly the same way irrespective of the enemy.

Marines and chaos space marines are both very forgiving. Easy to pick up and use, although you'll often have to change your tactics to fight some opponents. Necrons are the same but even more so.

Orks would have been a contender for the top spot but since their codex is just about to be updated it's a bit difficult to include them.

Had they been on the list Kroot mercenaries would have definately been top of my list as most difficult army to use. They are lovely army to see but very difficult to use and I've yet to see anyone build an effectively competitive list.


----------



## Flam (Feb 7, 2007)

I really hate to be someone that picks his own army "just because," but there's more to Tyranids that making blind, wreckless charges. That kind of thing gets your army wiped out before it can cross the table. In my experience, novice players rarely do well with Tyranids. They'd rather just sit back and shoot.

I can't honestly say that Tyranids are the most difficult army to play, though. Actually, I think Orks and Eldar are both a brain drain (though I've never played Eldar, I know a guy that collects them and he furrows his brow a lot when he plays - that must be the pure challenge rising to the surface!).


----------



## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

I've heard much the same argument for Marines, Flam.

"They're easy, just jog up the board..."

Such things get you killed real easy.

Plus the whole "Marines are forgiving", what? Every competitive list is designed with MEq killing ratio's in mind. When someone chooses a unit they don't think "How many Guard will this kill?"

If you don't use cover, if you don't keep the army together for support- most other armies will chew it apart.

You turn up to the table and your opponent will often have an in-depth knowledge of how your army works as it's so common.

Now try this with DA, Marines with the balls removed. This assuming Special Crutches aren't taken.


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Plus the whole "Marines are forgiving", what? Every competitive list is designed with MEq killing ratio's in mind. When someone chooses a unit they don't think "How many Guard will this kill?"


Ahh but this is precisely because Marines are forgiving, especially to new players, and tend to be taken for this reason which leads to a higher ratio of Marine lists. Which again leads to lists tailored to take down marines. You don't see players gearing to kill Guard in specific simply because the number of Guard armies is substantially lower than Marines and Marines being what they are are simply a harder army to deal with. Make a bad mistake with Guard and you are screwed but make that same mistake with Marines and you are still going to be able to recover due to the nature and stats of the army.

I play Tau and Chaos Marines and I have found this to be absolutely true. I lost a game the other day because of a mistake I made with my Tau that I could not recover from, simply due to the way they play but I made a similar mistake with my Thousand Sons the week before (yeah I know, I should have learned lol :grin and I was still able to turn it around for a close fought win. Marines are much more forgiving than any other army out there and the fact that other lists are designed to take them on does not change that.


----------



## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

I leaning towards the side of the inquisition as for the amount of quys you get especially in grey knights for points you can't field that many people. If you even add them in a IG army they'll soak up alot of fire because guard don't have that many other things that are worth shooting at.


----------



## Frodo (Nov 13, 2007)

id place eldar as hardest against mech/maneuverable armies because although you might have the right units lined up at turn 1 by turn 3 the enemy is on the other side of the board. T'au static type and IG come in a close second.


----------



## obsidian492 (Nov 14, 2007)

I agree with Frodo on that one. Eldar have always seemed hard to me. It must be said, 'Nids and CSMs are really not for the strategically minded - compared to Eldar, Inquisition, IG, and Static Tau.


----------



## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Dark Eldar. They make you pay for blindfolded decisions.


----------



## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

Who put Space Marines because i completely disagree it would nice to see some reasons on why.


----------



## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm not too familiar with Inquisition forces, but I'm going to say Dark Eldar. They play mildly similar to Eldar, but not so much that the change is easy. They are definitely the most difficult to use tactically, as every single unit is made of lollipops & sunshine. Any kind of dedicated fire, even from lasguns, can ruin the day of Dark Eldar in short order. Tau are not hard to play at all, even for first time users. I completely annihilated a space wolf force with my friends Tau the first time I used them. Necrons can be tough to use tactically as well. Getting back up isn't a tactic, its a necessary lifesaver, as they have pretty much no tactics save walking across into fire and hoping to stand back up. Doing better than that involves some veteran necron play or solid intelligent codex reading.


----------



## Sinizter (Dec 10, 2007)

Well I voted Dark Eldar because many other armies require strategy to win sometimes, Dark Eldar need it to win anytime.

When your playing Dark Eldar and you make a move and the thought "Maybe I'll get lucky" pop into your head. You've just lost. It's an army for people who like surgical tactics, and can mathammer in their head on the fly.

Bad deploy can cost you victory alone, and any bad in-game decisions cost you dearly. They're simply made of glass.

Warriors break and run easily at the first sign of trouble. Raiders are made of paper mache and bottle rockets.

They have some awesome firepower, and CC units however. But they are so fragile they have to be used the right way every time.

That said though I play mostly tournaments and any army requires solid tactics to pull out the massacre's needed to win.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

I voted space marines, reason why is because they generally move slow, almost all vehicals are tanks. and you don't really get all that much for your points. I routinely play against tau, and eldar, and I am always outnumbered, and I always finish placing my army long before the enemy is even halfway through placement, therefore the enemy gets to place half their army knowing exactly where mine is. losing one squad often means losing half of your army. Yeah they are tough, and thier armor is good, but that just attracts a different kind of fire, a space marine is going to suffer instant death from almost any shot that has high enough AP to penetrate it. which means that quite often you wont be able to do anything to save your marines except for the decisions you made your previous turn, with space marines, you have to think ahead, and you have to make good decisions on the fly, yes you can sometimes recover from a mistake, but that really does require luck.

and even making good tactical decisions isn't anything without a little bit of luck. very often it comes down to one shot (namely with meltaguns, (50% chance with two shots, is much more reliable than 66% chance with one shot.) and that one shot can make or break the game. so even putting your marines in the right place and at the right time, doesnt mean youre going to succeed, because of the generally low ammount of dice they roll, bad luck has even more of an impact.


----------



## Andros (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd say Tau are the hardest to use, mostly because I've used them against Dark Elder, and they often get in combat no matter what you do....... Stealth Teams and Battlesuits are good for when it comes to shoot and run, it's just making sure that the enemy doesn't have you chasing ghosts for lack of better words, ie, jump in, shoot something, jump back, faced with big hard thing to kill.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

There is no way marines require the most strategy to play. I would consider them one of the easier armies to play with. With them you can build a really specialized army or a rounded balance one. 

I would think one of the army that requires the most thinking is Witchhunters (maybe dark eldar but I have never played with them), its is really easy to go overboard on the cool equipment and have a really bad army. Once they are on the table top, they aren't great at assault or long range firepower, so they can't just sit back but they can't just rush headlong into fights either. They have to pick their assaults and where to attach carefully. Plus using faith points wisely is another skill that is required, if used right they can win you a game, used wrong you can seriously mess up your plans.


----------



## HorridForm (Aug 1, 2007)

Does anyone else who plays Dark Eldar ever feel like there's 3 stages of praying before you can relax? Terrain, Deployment, and roll for first turn.


----------



## makdonald (Dec 11, 2007)

i would have to say orks because it's so hard to get them into close combat


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

makdonald said:


> i would have to say orks because it's so hard to get them into close combat


Heh, you are going to love the new codex then.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> i would have to say orks because it's so hard to get them into close combat


That is why you take lots and lots of cheap orcs and run as fast as you can towards the enemy lines.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

I disagree with anyone that says tau are hard to use. JSJ, TargetLocks and Markerlights, are straightfoward, they don't need finesse also, keeping away from an assaulting army is easier than getting to an army that is running away from you. lastly, they've got smart missiles. which means that you don't even have to worry about terrain in your way, and As I have been victim to, Tau can field a lot of smart missiles. Ive been subjected to 24 smart missiles per turn, and when you combine that with railguns and thier fancy watercooled plasmaguns, its pretty easy to make any expensive unit with armor and toughness have a bad day.


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Some of the guys i know play gt's seems to think everyone uses gt style armies. The fact is its actually the minority of people out there who use lists made up of "the hardest tank in the game" and armies with already established tactics. 
Most tau players dont use minimum firewarriors.


----------



## Hicks (Nov 20, 2007)

I would say without a doubt that the Daemon Hunter list is the hardest to use. Always outnumbered, always outguned and they die in close combat.


----------



## ultimatum (Dec 5, 2007)

I'd say tha dark eldar are becasue if you mess up and dont plan what youre going to do then you dont have the thick armour save, heavy fire or these huge tough guys that will cover for you.

If used properly and planned well then they should be a very deadly and scary guys you have to some how come up with a plan to kill. :ireful2:


----------



## Terminator (Nov 17, 2007)

I changed my mind. I think Imperial Guard take the most strategizing - IG are limited in many ways (and powerful in others) but most players know what the IG player will do and must overcome with shrewd tactics.


----------



## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

i dissagree with the people saying Tau, i played Tau for a a good 8 months and lost little amount of games,the only reason i ever stopped using them is because i lost interest in the game (was teenager ha) but now i regret selling them..

inquisition hardest imo or dark eldar

SM and CSM are easy to use for noobs fighting noobs but not fighting veterans as they ussually expecy (alot of the time) to be playing against these armies so have special tactics. ive seen some marine veterans get beat by not so good players who use nids or orks simply because of the basis of "chargeeeee" lol

when i first started with my death guard it took me a good few months to develop tactics for each army so every army i play i no how to deploy were to go e.t.c
and now my death guard are higly victorious especially in big games.
all other armies are touch and go for me io dont no how to use them exept necrons.. imo anyone can play necrons and be effective (not neceseraly saying win)
IG need good tactis
eldar needs good tactics especialy making the army list.

my vote goes to dark eldar or demon hunters/witch hunters


----------



## makdonald (Dec 11, 2007)

hick: I would say without a doubt that the Daemon Hunter list is the hardest to use. Always outnumbered, always outguned and they die in close combat 

Hick what are you talking about my brother (isafrehn) has one squad of terminators with a grand master and he rapes my orks in close combat (even with gazghull 10 nobs and warboss bodyguard) But i guess thats also because i'm not very good :angry: but think about it each guy is worth 25 points and you can have land raiders for transports and arial strike for heavy support and a *grand master* for *hq* thats sounds pretty good to me but it's your oppinion


----------



## Hicks (Nov 20, 2007)

makdonald said:


> hick: I would say without a doubt that the Daemon Hunter list is the hardest to use. Always outnumbered, always outguned and they die in close combat
> 
> Hick what are you talking about my brother (isafrehn) has one squad of terminators with a grand master and he rapes my orks in close combat (even with gazghull 10 nobs and warboss bodyguard) But i guess thats also because i'm not very good :angry: but think about it each guy is worth 25 points and you can have land raiders for transports and arial strike for heavy support and a *grand master* for *hq* thats sounds pretty good to me but it's your oppinion


Sure a Grandmaster with retinue is a terror in close combat against ennemies who strike last, but it costs a gazillion points. 

Each guy being worth 25pts is actually a huge weakness because you can't have a lot. IMO, they aren't good enough to be worth that much. At the end of the day they are as easy to kill as a normal space marines that costs a lot less. Even in close combat they don't have enough attacks to win against a fresh ennemy. You have to soften up the opponent's units with storm bolter fire until you know you can take them on in CC, while avoiding getting charged and trying to stay in cover, not that easy. You can deepstrike too, but having such an expensive unit get destroyed by one desintegrator shot will quickly make you understand that it's not a good idea. 

Storm Troopers are great at carrying plasmagun, but they too lack CC skills, your orks don't need to fear them. As for the orbital bombardment, you have as much chance getting hit by that as you would getting hit by lightning.


----------



## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I say Guard you can counter attack, use firepower, and use a huge numbers advantage.


----------



## Kenny3760 (Jan 5, 2007)

I have voted Dark Eldar.

Low strength and toughness, poor armour save, glass transports, and a strength 3 gun do not make an easy army to play. Even with a relatively high inititive the puny strength does not guarentee a winning combat.

It takes planning and timing to achieve the massed asaults required to win with this army.

Sure they have great anti-tank but with so many fast moving vehicles these days, resulting in glancing only hits the dark lance ain't as effective as it needs to be.


----------



## SPYDeR13 (Dec 18, 2007)

Either of the Eldar armies imo.


----------



## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

I voted for Dark Eldar Simply because they are an extremely unforgiving army. I've been playing for 8 months now(started with Dark Eldar) and i still have not gotten them down. The fragility truly makes you suffer for every mistake you made and i've lost alot of games because of gambles that i've made.


----------



## NFL jaguars (Dec 29, 2007)

Inquisition, especially DH. There ok in small games, but at 2000 there very difficult


----------



## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

I would have to say inquisition. This is due to their limited variety and the expense of their models.


----------



## Demenhoth (Dec 30, 2007)

well it depends on who you are fighting. Chaos space marines can be incredibly hard to play against tau if you can get close enough to even shoot at them....


----------



## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

i think dark eldar is because there aren't many players so you couldn't get ideas for tactics


----------



## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

I say inquisition only because I have a pure Grey Knight force and it took me about 1.5 years to finally get the hang of them and start winning tournys.
You are ALWAYS outnumbered and almost always outshot and Even sometimes out combated


----------



## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Definitely Dark Eldar, but only for folks who aren't used to their style of play.
The other armies available don't take nearly as long to truly master as DE.

Now don't get me wrong, in the right hands DE are one of the most powerful armies that you can play!
And in my opinion, the only two good lists for them are "Raider Rush" using either a Wych Cult army or a Warrior army with some Wych and Incubi additions, and "Webway Madness" (which is again, somewhat like the raider list).


----------



## blaablaa (May 23, 2008)

one thing is that any army can beat any army its all about skill luck and diversity
IMO i think the hardest army would be demon hunters but if u play them right u will rape

Also i'd say eldar take the most skill because every unit is ment to do a certain thing so an eldar army needs diversity so every unit can work together.


----------



## dizzington esq (Apr 24, 2008)

I am suprised that not many people have said necrons. Phase out is a huge disadvantage for us. It makes you have to monitor every wbb unit and make sure that you do not squander or sacrifice units for no gain. Ultimately this will teach you good managment of your resources but in the interim it can be devastating to lose a game just because you have only 25% of your starting force left.

Did I mention that I like scarabs...


----------



## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

Dark Eldar, while underpowered since they haven't been updated, are still very underpowered without planning, and were built to be a hit n' run (+pray) army to begin with me thinks... If we are talking shear stratagem, i've seen a lot of tau, my templars, IG and inquisition, and none seem to be anywhere near as difficult to master, let alone PLAY, then DEldar


----------



## rincewind (May 6, 2008)

Sinizter said:


> Well I voted Dark Eldar because many other armies require strategy to win sometimes, Dark Eldar need it to win anytime.
> 
> When your playing Dark Eldar and you make a move and the thought "Maybe I'll get lucky" pop into your head. You've just lost. It's an army for people who like surgical tactics, and can mathammer in their head on the fly.
> 
> ...


Exactly for this reason I vote DE aswell. Couldn't have said it better. Sorry for stealing your words.


----------



## Apoctis (Feb 14, 2008)

necrons are pretty hard to use because they only have 1 tank and move slow.


----------



## Warsmith Faustus (Mar 25, 2008)

I would have to agree with many on this thread and go with DE, theyre fragile, but with heavy firepower, meaning you have to be REALLY careful to to mess up or it will cost you the game. Other armies in the running would be Daemonhunters, because theyre so badly outnumbered, dark angels, because they have less obvious advantages compared to normal marines but all tourney armies are still out to get them, and now daemons, because you need to plan for so many ways that the army could possibly fall apart.


----------



## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

Saint7515 said:


> Dark Eldar, while underpowered since they haven't been updated, are still very underpowered without planning, and were built to be a hit n' run (+pray) army to begin with me thinks... If we are talking shear stratagem, i've seen a lot of tau, my templars, IG and inquisition, and none seem to be anywhere near as difficult to master, let alone PLAY, then DEldar


Dark Eldar are difficult to master early on I agree and our a most unforgiving army for an inexperienced player to use. However the can also be very competitive once you understand what’s expected of them.

Pure Daemonhunters while slightly more forgiving to begin with are stratigically far more difficult to use competitively. Expensive, the troops having no real role and a serious lack of AT hurts them very badly. These flaws don't go away as you get more experienced with them, they just get more obvious. WH and DE both can be competitive with practise but DH the best you can hope for is chance of getting a win. The only effective tactic is by going with a GK water army and loading up on landraiders. However using this army requires u think well out the box for a 1000pt list will have less then 20 models and mistakes cannot afford to be made

Witchunters are much easier to use then either of the above, basic sisters and exorcists (spam for competitive matches) a solid and dependable units, only the Seraphrim and flying cannoness need practise using


----------



## PUGNUS (May 10, 2008)

I would like to disagree with those who say Witch Hunters have no long range fire power. I take it none of you have gone against a player who utilizes 4 hvy bolters in many squads, then gives them some faith point and makes them all AP1. Just remind me how any armoured troop is supposed to reasonably survive? Even termis get slaughtered with that. But I spose I am a troop mass man. Never really take into account tanks cos of £££.

I would say that despite what u say bout DE, they r bout to get an update (yes i know this wasnt known when most was said). I think GW will pull off bringing them back to date, and to become competitive again. 

I personally, not having played many armies, cant offer as much as some of you, but i must say Necrons have a problem, get a plasma, melta, las etc heavy army and u really have shot it.

Well there is my very limited view.
PUGNUS


----------



## delta555 (May 27, 2008)

i say Ig not because tacitcs are hard but you have to read the game turns ahead
guard are to week to use foolishly
the point is the tricky part of guard to me is getting their value without them getting killed by something before you get some kils in


----------



## Cinder (Apr 3, 2008)

To me its going to have to be a pure Grey Knights army. There is just not enough of them and because of lack of transportation other than a Land Raider their is just not that much room for error with those guys. And for every Grey Knight that falls you really do feel it.


----------



## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm sorry, but Cron's, CSM and Sm are not difficult to play, i expect while a few of ppl who say they are may be vets who see MEQ killer lists daily and in that case fair enough. But to me the majority will merely be attempting to justify picking an army because they went 'Wow, 3+ save' by claiming that rly its hard tactically to use.

While i play eldar, a fairly tactical list it is by no means the most challaging to me (i can see arguments for it however), eldar do have the advantage that every unit is pretty much stated what it does so do it like tht or die! I voted DE because as someone earlier stated, open topped AV bottle rocket tanks will always be hard to use, combined with troops that fall over in a strong breeze this team rly does require a good idea of how to utilize cover and the battlefeild to work in their favor, hats off to any DE players. Also noted i don't count Inquisition as my above mentioned easier armies, as they cost so blasted much. 

P.s. before i get the inevitable hate mail, i've never collected Inquistion so not attempting to justiy it but i did get Space Wolves.


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Just throwing it out there but I really don't believe any well-made list of eldar or tau is at all strategically challenging.

Now a list of eldar in the new edition where they HAVE to rely on guardians and dire avengers, that'll be respect points all over the place, but as of fourth edition, you're high thinking they're difficult to play. And tau aren't any better. Sure if you make it into the frontline you almost have them, but good luck getting there. Markerlights and smartmissiles(friggen hate those) are abysmal. But again, fifth edition will balance it out with running and better cover rules.

I'd have to say dark eldar. They NEED tactics to even squeek out a draw.


----------



## skad567 (Jun 4, 2008)

I personally find Dark Eldar to be the most challenging to play, but darn are they rewarding when everything clicks. Inquisition is a close second, but I have had very little experience facing them and when I have it was always a very one sided victory in my favor. I think someone said it best when they said your opponents army plays a huge factor in this decision because there are certain armies that can just give other armies fits. It just so happens that I think Dark Eldar have the most problems with a good chunk of opponents because like they say "Even the best laid plans..."


----------

