# Primarch Discovery Order



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I know no official discovery order of the Primarchs has been revealed, but i want to make a list which is as accurate as possible as to the order in which the Primarchs were discovered (with your help of course :biggrin

Heres some facts we know:

1. Horus was discovered first.
2. Alpharius Omegon was discovered last.
3. Perturabo was discovered before Angron and Guilliman. (Source: After Desh'ea)
4. Magnus was discovered before Lorgar. (as he, alongside the Emperor discovered Lorgar)
5. Fulgrim was discovered around 160 years before the Horus Heresy as his flagship was built then. (Source: Fulgrim)
EDIT
6. Fulgrim was discovered before Konrad Curze.
7. Jaghatai Khan was discovered before the Lion. (The Dark Angels first mission (Post-Primarch Discovery) was taking over from the White Scars)
8. The Lion was discovered roughly 148 years after the start of the Great Crusade. (Fallen Angels is set in the 203rd Year, and also set 50 years after Descent of Angels.)
9. Rogal Dorn was discovered seventh according to the Horus Heresy Chapbook.
10. According to 'Fulgrim' the gun Ferrus Manus made for Vulkan was forged 200 years prior to Isstvan III (ish), therefore both Ferrus Manus and Vulkan would have been discovered 200 years prior to the Heresy, which would make them two of the first found, although I fear this may have just been a mistake by Graham McNeill. 
11. All the Primarchs were discovered prior to the Ullanor campaign. (Source: Legion) 
12. Vulkan was discovered before Angron. (Source: After Desh'ea)
13. Guilliman was discovered before Angron. (Source: After Desh'ea)
14. Mortarion, Corax and Dorn were discovered before Magnus (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 385-387)
15. Magnus implied to have been discovered before Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus & Lorgar - although not conclusive evidence (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 96)
16. Magnus, the Khan and Sanguinius discovered before the Lion (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 322)


Where no information exists on certain primarchs we can logically assume their discovery order in accordance to there homeworlds distance from Terra. From this we can assume that following Horus; Magnus, Russ and Sanguinius were some of the early discoveries. (Although this is not solid evidence).

In no Strict Order...

Personal Speculated First 5 (1-5): Horus, Perturabo, Fulgrim, The Khan, Corax.
Personal Speculated Next 5 (6-10): Russ, Rogal Dorn, Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus. 
Personal Speculated Next 5 (11-15): The Lion,
Personal Speculated Last 5 (16-20): Alpharius, Night Haunter 

Anyone have any more information?! (+Rep to those who can find or knows any relavent information! :good

:biggrin:

Here is the table so far:

1. Horus Lupercal of the Luna Wolves.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18. Alpharius Omegon of the Alpha Legion.

(Ive only included 18, as its pointless including the Unknown Primarchs in this! )


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## Corax_aus

The Lion was discovered before Leman Russ, according to call of the Lion


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## NeckbeardEpidemic

I don't have the source but if you check out http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Konrad_Curze it mentions that the Night Haunter studied under Fulgrim meaning that Fulgrim would have to have been discovered before he was.


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## Micklez

wernt they discoverend in numerical order except horus who was discovered first????


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## trog

If you go by ther historys and rivalries, and hints in there storys you can get a picture of a loose framework but some contradict each other heres my take only how ive always seen them opinion as always welcome 


1. Horus
2. Rogal Dorn 
3. Magnus the red
4. Robart Guilliman
5. Sanganus 
6. Pertribo
7. Jaganti Khan (if you read desent of angel)
8. Lion el Johnson 
9. Leman Russ
10. Ferrus Manus (if you read fulgrim)
11. Fulgrim
12. Angron
13. Lorgar
14. Moration
15. Conrad Cruze A.k.a Night haunter
16. Vulkan
17. Corax
18. Alparios/Omagron


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Micklez said:


> wernt they discoverend in numerical order except horus who was discovered first????


no :biggrin:

--------------------

Looks good Trog, but theres a few little tweeks i can see though, Pertruabo should be before Guilliman for example


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## Death Shroud

The Legion numbers indicate 2 things
A) the number allotted to the Primarchs creation (we know this from "False Gods" as one of the tanks that Horus indicatd to as belonging to a lost Primarch is also the number of the legion of a lost Primarch.

B) The legion created from that Primarch also carrid that number.

Lion el Johnson was in tank one and so his geneseed was the first used to create a Space Marine Legion. Alpharius is the only one who was created, found and his legion founded in the same sequence order (as far as I am aware).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Indeed. yea Alpharius Omegon was the only primarch who was discovered in order compared to his Legions Number - XX 

So do we have any more info on the discovery order?


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## Bloody Mary

Ferrus Manus was discovered before Fulgrim, but their discoveries probably weren't too far apart. I'm basing this on the fact that they had their weapon-crafting competition shortly after Fulgrim was dicovered and arrived on Terra.


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## deathbringer

Yeah another thing you missed from after Desh'ea
Vulkan of the Sallies was discovered before Angron
Kharn says about how the salamanders waited for the emperors call
So we can say that Vulkan Gulliman and Peturabo where all found before Angron

We can also say that Peturabo was found before Gulliman 

Also just through Kharn's words it suggests Angron is quite far down the list whilst he discusses the rumours of Vulkan before Peturabo
It is nothing concrete but it could be a clue


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

deathbringer said:


> Yeah another thing you missed from after Desh'ea
> Vulkan of the Sallies was discovered before Angron
> Kharn says about how the salamanders waited for the emperors call
> So we can say that Vulkan Gulliman and Peturabo where all found before Angron
> 
> We can also say that Peturabo was found before Gulliman
> 
> Also just through Kharn's words it suggests Angron is quite far down the list whilst he discusses the rumours of Vulkan before Peturabo
> It is nothing concrete but it could be a clue


Oh really? I don't remember reading about Vulkan in _'After Desh'ea'_ although its a while since I read it! Have you got a page reference handy so I could just check it for myself?


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## deathbringer

bottom of 378 and top of 379
It only talks about how the sallies surrounded the burning moon
Yet thats where Vulkan was found on a lava strewn moon


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## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In no Strict Order...
> 
> Personal Speculated First 5 (1-5): Horus, Perturabo, Magnus, Fulgrim, The Khan.
> Personal Speculated Next 5 (6-10): Russ, Rogal Dorn, Guilliman,
> Personal Speculated Next 5 (11-15): The Lion,
> Personal Speculated Last 5 (16-20): Alpharius, Mortarion, Night Haunter


I must say really really fine work here, myself have wondered also in what way the Primarchs were found (accidentally posted in another thread seconds before I found this one. I spoke on Facebook in BL official group and I would like to move the Lion to position 17 instead of 15 as noted by you but thats just me. Otherwise, great work here.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

deathbringer said:


> bottom of 378 and top of 379
> It only talks about how the sallies surrounded the burning moon
> Yet thats where Vulkan was found on a lava strewn moon


Ah Yes, thanks for that 

Im in the process of ploughing through _A Thousand Sons_ currently, so i've added some more info to the original page.


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## Baron Spikey

Lorgar was chatised by the Emperor roughly a century after his discovery, so it would be some where between 100-150 years into the Crusade that he was discovered by my vague calculations- if anyone knows how long it was between Lorgar being chatised by the Emperor and the Horus Heresy occuring that would aid narrowing when exactly Lorgar was found.

(Ref. Pg.184 _Dark Creed_)

EDIT: If I was to further speculate I'd say Lorgar was discovered a couple of decades before the Lion, rather than after.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> Lorgar was chatised by the Emperor roughly a century after his discovery, so it would be some where between 100-150 years into the Crusade that he was discovered by my vague calculations- if anyone knows how long it was between Lorgar being chatised by the Emperor and the Horus Heresy occuring that would aid narrowing when exactly Lorgar was found.
> 
> (Ref. Pg.184 _Dark Creed_)
> 
> EDIT: If I was to further speculate I'd say Lorgar was discovered a couple of decades before the Lion, rather than after.


Yeah I noticed that when I read _Dark Creed_, regarding the Second Purge of the Brotherhood occuring 100 years after the first, and the first Purge having occured before Lorgar/Colchis was reunited with the Imperium.

The problem is though is that its not concrete evidence and we have to speculate how long after the First Purge the Emperor/Imperials arrived on Colchis. But yeah it has to be taken into account for speculation reasons. Cheers Spikey


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## ckcrawford

"He remembered the first sight of chilly-eyed Perturabo walking at the emperor's shoulder the day they took ship from Nove Shendak...Every legion still with that empty place at its head felt the same longing, sharper with every voyage and campaign." - Top of 379 "Tales of Heresy"

I would say that makes Perturabo and his Iron Warriors the second chapter to be found(considering that Horus was undisputably the first). However, if I took this context literally that would make it the first!


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## gen.ahab

Yes well we know for certain that he was not the first.


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## ckcrawford

I thought it was still an interesting choice of words. Even so, I believe that Peturabo would be the second found primarch. Which would be interesting that the first two legions would have fallen to chaos.


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## Baron Spikey

To be honest there isn't any evidence to suggest Perturabo was the 2nd found Primarch, certainly a Son found early but that's it- the quote just says that every Legion that didn't already have a Primarch had a longing to find their gene-Father.


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## deathwatch_v

umm to add, i agree with cote about the missing primarchs not really counting. However, if we know that Dorn for example was found seventh, doesn't it mean we must include the missing 2 primarchs? Because if we don't then we can't take the statement about Dorn being found 7th as being true because the missing primarchs could have been found before and that would have pushed Dorn down the order...thus we are trying to fill gaps in the top 7 places that we cant with out including all 20 primarchs....


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## ckcrawford

This is how I take the statement of Kharn, when speaking about the greatness of a particular subject it is natural to go from a weaker subject to a much broader subject even throughout the thread rooms. So 
when speaking about the frist founding primarchs, I could see that Kharn was speaking of Vulkan, then speaking of Perturabo (to make the point of oldest and earliest at that point). The speaking of the awe that the legions encountered about these triumphuts. It would make much sense that Perturabo would be the second legion found. I have not found anything yet on the Thousand Sons, and I am currently reading up AGAIN on Fulgrim (since it has the most primarch talked about in a single book). I tried the Dark Angels Descent book and no luck yet. So conclusivly, because that one captain in the Thousand Sons book refers to the Iron Warriors as being second in power to the Thousand Sons, I could only see why he would do that to respect over this legion. Why not the Luna Wolves (I mean look at the comparrisons, Luna Wolves would have been totally dominant due to victory records.) I also agree in the face that CoE would put Fulgrim and Magnus in the first five. Of course this would be a "Pathos type argument" but it would make sense that one of the first five of the primarchs would be Fulgrim as it was during the heresy, also that Perturabo and Magnus fell out of the grace of the emperor as their own undoing.

I Could also see Perturabo as the second legion because, Perturabo was the ill favoured/ ignored primarch throughout all the fluff so far. His legion was used as an imperial garrison legion and also a legion to use up against the hardest sieges and not getting any credit for. This kind of works as the older child being ignored as the celebration of the younger (this situation, Dorn).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> This is how I take the statement of Kharn, when speaking about the greatness of a particular subject it is natural to go from a weaker subject to a much broader subject even throughout the thread rooms. So when speaking about the frist founding primarchs, I could see that Kharn was speaking of Vulkan, then speaking of Perturabo (to make the point of oldest and earliest at that point). The speaking of the awe that the legions encountered about these triumphuts. It would make much sense that Perturabo would be the second legion found.


It really wouldn't make sense based on what you just said. There is no basis at all for saying Perturabo was the second Primarch discovered.



ckcrawford said:


> because that one captain in the Thousand Sons book refers to the Iron Warriors as being second in power to the Thousand Sons


Thats twisting the facts. He didn't say that the Iron Warriors were second in power to the Thousand Sons, merely that he respected them.



ckcrawford said:


> I Could also see Perturabo as the second legion because, Perturabo was the ill favoured/ ignored primarch throughout all the fluff so far. His legion was used as an imperial garrison legion and also a legion to use up against the hardest sieges and not getting any credit for. This kind of works as the older child being ignored as the celebration of the younger (this situation, Dorn).


Again, that argument would hold no weight whatsoever.



deathwatch_v said:


> umm to add, i agree with cote about the missing primarchs not really counting. However, if we know that Dorn for example was found seventh, doesn't it mean we must include the missing 2 primarchs? Because if we don't then we can't take the statement about Dorn being found 7th as being true because the missing primarchs could have been found before and that would have pushed Dorn down the order...thus we are trying to fill gaps in the top 7 places that we cant with out including all 20 primarchs....


Thats a very good point. The problem is though is that we have no basis whatsoever for information on the Lost Primarchs, let alone their discovery order - so really we have no choice but to leave them out. Were just gonna have to accept that the table may not be entirely accurate due to this.


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## baroniveagh

Remember too that it's implied that the 'missing' primarchs were also found, and 'lost' at some point previous to the Heresy. I recall that Dorn mentioning that their statues had been removed (A roman way of showing a fall from grace,since the early Imperium seems to follow Roman conventions).


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## deathbringer

ckcrawford said:


> I Could also see Perturabo as the second legion because, Perturabo was the ill favoured/ ignored primarch throughout all the fluff so far. His legion was used as an imperial garrison legion and also a legion to use up against the hardest sieges and not getting any credit for. This kind of works as the older child being ignored as the celebration of the younger (this situation, Dorn).


Back it up with evidence and then your laughing but till you can its just pontificating


Well Magnus isnt in the first 5 he is after Dorn who is 7th
I see him as in the top 10, now from *below is all rough implications and general bs but i feel like it*

Taking him as 10 for evens sake we can put those infront of him as
(Horus, Dorn Mortarion, Corax, definite)

Those after ( if we take the implication of Fulgrim and Ferrus being after as true)
Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Konrad Kurze Lion


From this list we are left with 
Angron, Gulliman, Vulkan, Khan, Peturabo, Russ, Sanguinius

Now by my logic if Ferrus Manus made Vulkans gun suggests he was discovered when Ferrus Manus was already about

Thus we can put Vulkan and consequentially Angron in the those after list

Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Kurze, Vulkan, Angron, Lion

Thats our 8 and though its not definitive it would suggest that taking Magnus as 10

Those before Magnus (assuming he is 10)
(Horus, Dorn Mortarion, Corax, definite) Gulliman, Khan, Peturabo, Russ, Sanguinius

Those after list

Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Kurze, Vulkan, Angron, Lion

It fits with the information we have so far yet is a very very rough framework


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## ckcrawford

"Thats twisting the facts. He didn't say that the Iron Warriors were second in power to the Thousand Sons, merely that he respected them."-CoE

how do you interpret this then?

"Khalopis had served with the Iron Warriors, a legion he admired and ranked second only to the thousand Sons." page 102 "A Thousand Sons"

he ranked them. 

unless he ranked them because of pure looks haha

"Back it up with evidence and then your laughing but till you can its just pontificating."

Hey thats fine, and don't worry I don't laugh at people for being mistaken thats dumb. My information is from the first Index Astartes. If you read the section with the Iron Warriors you will see it. Sorry I can't quote it right now as half my black library stuff is in storage. Thats actually probably the only piece you will find it in. I would tell you to look at the Lexicanum but after reading that shit on the imperial fists I could never take that website seriously again.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> how do you interpret this then?
> 
> "Khalopis had served with the Iron Warriors, a legion he admired and ranked second only to the thousand Sons." page 102 "A Thousand Sons"
> 
> he ranked them.


My bad for forgetting  I retract my point.



ckcrawford said:


> Hey thats fine, and don't worry I don't laugh at people for being mistaken thats dumb. My information is from the first Index Astartes. If you read the section with the Iron Warriors you will see it. Sorry I can't quote it right now as half my black library stuff is in storage. Thats actually probably the only piece you will find it in. I would tell you to look at the Lexicanum but after reading that shit on the imperial fists I could never take that website seriously again.


But there is still no evidence whatsoever to claim that Perturabo was the second Primarch discovered.


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## Baron Spikey

I checked the IA article in question- other than him being bitter there's nothing to suggest he was found early, in fact there's actually a rather subtle statement suggesting there were a few Primarchs found before him



> Perturabo pledged his loyalty to the Emperor and, as was his custom with his Primarchs, the Emperor granted Perturabo command of a Space Marine Legion and suzerainty of the planet as the Legion's home world.


It's not exactly conclusive proof but it does imply, potentially, that the Emperor had as a matter of course granted such rights a few time before.


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## warmaster isaan

I'm just thinking because it is said that Omegon and Alpharius are two primarchs which could switch places willy-nilly because of them being twins; is it possible one of the two missing primarchs is Omegon who was not originally Alpharius' twin, but as chaos whisked them away omegon was changed through some crazy scheme of Tzeentch to look like Alpharius? just brain-storming here!
Plz tell me what you think!!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

warmaster isaan said:


> I'm just thinking because it is said that Omegon and Alpharius are two primarchs which could switch places willy-nilly because of them being twins; is it possible one of the two missing primarchs is Omegon who was not originally Alpharius' twin, but as chaos whisked them away omegon was changed through some crazy scheme of Tzeentch to look like Alpharius? just brain-storming here!
> Plz tell me what you think!!


I think thats almost certainly a 'No'. Alpharius Omegon is one Primarch, one soul in two vessels, one Primarch, the whole Primarch of the Last Legion. _Legion_ is fairly clear on this.

Subtle hints in other sources also support this. Abnett himself said that Alpharius was always concieved of (by the original game developers) as a twin, and even in _A Thousand Sons_ there is a subtle hint regarding Alpharius Omegon.

But regardless thats not beneficial to this thread, Alpharius Omegon was discovered last, that we know for certain.


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## warmaster isaan

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think thats almost certainly a 'No'. Alpharius Omegon is one Primarch, one soul in two vessels, one Primarch, the whole Primarch of the Last Legion. _Legion_ is fairly clear on this.
> 
> Subtle hints in other sources also support this. Abnett himself said that Alpharius was always concieved of (by the original game developers) as a twin, and even in _A Thousand Sons_ there is a subtle hint regarding Alpharius Omegon.
> 
> But regardless thats not beneficial to this thread, Alpharius Omegon was discovered last, that we know for certain.


kk haven't read those yet just started false gods. thanx for helping me out!


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## isilvra

I seem to remember in fulgrim that the Emperors Children undertook joint crusades with other legions, mainly the Luna wolves for a century prior to the triumph at Ullinor when they were granted their own expedition. This would push Fulgrim rather far down the list unless he spent a long time rebuilding his legion before he even started fighting. Doesn’t seem his style. As for the time it took to build the Pride of the Emperor, the ships could have been completed and in service before fulgrim took over. Given how long ship construction takes in 40k a 30 year period is hardly anything and the Pride took twice as long as a normal ship of it’s size.

Couple of other things to add. Horus says the next primarch was not found until 3 decades later. Ferrus Manus is also described be Fulgrim as having a face ruined be two centuries of war.


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## Putch.

Wasnt there something that the blood angels were second? Or was that just they were the scond legion founded?


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## Baron Spikey

The Blood Angels neither discovered their Primarch second or were founded second.

At least there isn't a published source to suggest as such.


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## Marcoos

Really interesting post this, something that I have been working on myself. I have a little bit more info to share, unfortunately it conflicts with one of the other stated facts.

Page 119 of The Flight of the Eisenstein tells us that Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman and Magnus were all found before Mortarion. Not sure how this reconciles against your #14, as the passage in Thousand Sons does clearly state Mortarion before Magnus.




> 14. Mortarion, Corax and Dorn were discovered before Magnus (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 385-387)


I also think that too much has been read into some of the text and wouldn't take any of the following as gospel truth.




> 13. Guilliman was discovered before Angron. (Source: After Desh'ea)




The test in After Desh'ea pg 406 could equally be read as that the Ultramarines and World Eaters were both envious of the Iron Warriors for finding their Primarch. No specific mention of the UM finding Guilleman means this is dubious at best.




> 16. Magnus, the Khan and Sanguinius discovered before the Lion (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 322)


The Lion isn't mentioned on pg 322. It's perfectly possible I am missing another piece of information that links why the fact that the Thousand Sons, White Scars and Blood Angels had librarians first puts them before the Dark Angels, if so it would be great if this could be expanded on. But otherwise, I don't see how this follows...


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## Angel of Blood

Hmmm another thing i've only just noticed regarding Magnus whilst reading A Thousand Sons again. On pg.30 it states that the Thousand Sons had been fighting for less than 100 years of the great crusade up until that point(which is not far from the heresy, so nearing the 200 year point). Now it does go on to say that after Magnus was discovered he dedicated his time to 'curing' his sons before setting off, and yes it doesn't say how long that took either. Regardless from this we know that

- Thousand Sons only began the crusade less than 100 years before its end
- Magnus was discovered some time before this, not specified how long though.

Point being, Magnus potentially could have been found at around a middle point in the crusade, while this doesn't help in the order at the moment, it could help later on.


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## Angel of Blood

On another note, looking through the Space Wolves codex, it does say that Fenris(and consequently Russ) was found early on in the crusade. So i would put Russ quite high up


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## imperialfist13

*Word play In Tales of the Heresy*

Unfortunately I think a few people are being mislead regarding the Discovery of the Primarch Perturabo.

When Kharn describes how The Chilly eyed Perturabo affected the change amongst the iron Warriors that he longed to be re-united with his gene-sire, there is a subtle word play at work.

If my memory serves me as i dont have the book to hand Kharn describes the fleet as being comprised of Ultramarines, Iron Warriors and Warhounds his descrptive texts implies one thing. "we" 
The other Ultramarines are described separately to "we" ass in The Iron Warriors, WE and the Ultramarines which when coupled with the "we" as in "we" in essence are jealous still applies to the "we" as in Warhounds and Not the Ultramarines. IF any thing they emphasis on "we" could mean that Guilliman is already found.

Have a very careful read of the text and you will see the clever misleading text.

What as we all know, know for sure is that Horus is found 1st, Dorn 7th and Alpharius 20th, We know that Magnus was found before Lorgar, Fulgrim before Curze and both Vulkan and Perturabo found before Angron, clues are evrywhere and vague references.
There was an amazing bit of work done on the now defunct Blacklibrary forum which would be a great help here.


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## Marcoos

Agreed on the vagueness of the text in After Desh'ea, it could certainly be read either way with regards Guilleman and Peturabo.

I think there are a few more confirmations though, here's something I posted in another thread on this subject.

What we do know is as follows (if anyone has anything additional to add, I'd love to see please). In Legion order for simplicity.
1. The Lion - it appears that he was discovered after the Khan (Descent of Angels) - not confirmed.
2. n/a
3. Fulgrim - before Konrad Kurze (see Index Astartes: Night Lords)
4. Perurabo - before Angron (see Tales of Heresy After Desh'ea)
5. The Khan - before the Lion (see above)
6. Leman Russ - nothing known
7. Rogal Dorn - found 7th (see The Lightning Tower), before Magnus (A Thousand Sons)
8. Konrad Kurze - after Fulgrim (see above)
9. Sanguinius - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein)
10. Ferrus Manus - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein)
11. n/a
12. Angron - after Vulkan and Peturabo (see Tales of Heresy After Desh'ea)
13. Raboute Guilleman - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein)
14. Mortarion - a contradiction here (damn you GW!) - according to Flight of the Eisenstein he was found after Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Raboute Guilleman and Magnus, but according to A Thousand Sons he was found before Magnus. No idea which is correct here.
15. Magnus - before Lorgar (Index Asartes: Word Bearers), after Mortarion, Corax and Rogal Dorn (A Thousand Sons), before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein)
16. Horus - found 1st (various sources)
17. Lorgar - after Magnus (Index Astartes: Word Bearers)
18. Vulkan - before Angron (Tales of Heresy: After Desh'ea)
19. Corax - before Magnus (A Thousand Sons)
20. Alpharius/Omegon - last (various sources)Dark Eldar


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## forkmaster

**Spoiler alert***

After reading _The Rebirth_, the short story in _Age of Darkness_ about the Thousand Sons returning six months after the destruction of Prospero, I would imagine Angron was found pretty late in the Crusade. The Thousand son says that he confused why a Warhound, or a World Eater as they now are called, are located on Prospero and wondered if they were apart of the Wolves attack.

This would mark that the renaming of the Warhounds happened pretty recently. The other point mentioned is that the World Eaters had after being to uncontrolled, lead by under Horus watchful eye so that they behave. This would be in _False Gods_, so my theory is that Angron is found pretty late, his Legion is renamed and when he has shown he cant be controlled that easily, he is sent to Horus.


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## Marcoos

Another hint on this subject from Promethean Sun.

The Emperor, upon meeting Vulkan for the first time, explains to him that he has *many* brothers, *several* of whom have already been found. It's sadly no more explicit than that, but it seems to suggest that Vulkan is certainly not one of the first 2-3 found but probably amongst the first half.


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## raider1987

Although I have no proof what so ever for this, it really would not surprise me if Sanguinius was the second to be found. Horus was the only primarch found for 30 years, and he often remarked that Sanguinius was his closest brother. I bet after Sanguinius was found Horus was probably over the moon to have found a brother, an equal to have after so many years by his fathers side. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this is how it got started. As I said I have no proof this is just my theory. But its fun to speculate.


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## RudeAwakening79

Raider1987, that is a good assumption...however, Baal Secundus is situated far from terra (Ultima segmentum).

I've been looking at all the whereabouts of the planets on lexicanum, but a lot of positions are unknown....so it doesn't help our quest


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## forkmaster

isilvra said:


> Couple of other things to add. Horus says the next primarch was not found until 3 decades later. Ferrus Manus is also described be Fulgrim as having a face ruined be two centuries of war.


Well he could have been fighting prior to being found. He did afterwall battle that wyrm or whatever its called.

Also I was listening to The Dark King where it states the fleet of Curze was half a century old. That would put him pretty father down the line, after the Lion at least.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dunno if this is Important, but I got the feeling from the Lightning Tower (The Book) that Dorn had found memories of his lost brothers, thus it's possible he was close to them and that they where found before Dorn but after Leman Russ as his legion I believe was responsible for getting rid of one of them at least. It would also support the reason why not much is known about them as if you think about it not much is known of the early crusade at all.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I still think Magnus was found relatively early because:

1. Prospero is situated relatively close to Terra.

2. Magnus is a psyker of some ability and such a signature would almost alert the Big E to his posiion and rush toward him to help control his powers.

3. There is documentation and rumours that Magnus accompanies the Big E when findin other primarchs including Lorgar and I think (I can't remember where from though) Guilleman and Night Haunter.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Stephen_Newman said:


> I still think Magnus was found relatively early because:
> 
> 1. Prospero is situated relatively close to Terra.
> 
> 2. Magnus is a psyker of some ability and such a signature would almost alert the Big E to his posiion and rush toward him to help control his powers.
> 
> 3. There is documentation and rumours that Magnus accompanies the Big E when findin other primarchs including Lorgar and I think (I can't remember where from though) Guilleman and Night Haunter.


Something went wrong with his legion though as I understand it, which left only a thousand marines after they where reunited with their Primarch, which is why they are called the Thousand sons. 

Unsure however whether this indicates they found him early or fairly late.


----------



## High_Seraph

They were called the Thousand Sons _before_ reuniting with Magnus.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

High_Seraph said:


> They were called the Thousand Sons _before_ reuniting with Magnus.


Ah ok, I was it was after they where reunited with their Primarch that they stemmed the problem and ended up getting called a the Thousand sons. 

Oh well nvm, it might of not even been them who had the problem, might of been the Emperor's Children >.<


----------



## High_Seraph

They were subject to the flesh change so that might be what your thinking of as sooner or later they mutated as their powers went out of control. Ahriman had a brother who joined the legion at the same time who succumed to it i think. It was only after being reunited with Magnus and waiting for several years finally broling an agreement with Tzeentch that "saved" his Legion.


----------



## Marcoos

Sorry for the threadomancy, but I think this is probably the best place to post some additional information that has come up in Deliverance Lost.

1. There is a flashback sequence to the meeting between the Emperor and Corax, where they discuss Corax's brothers. The Emperor says he has 17 brothers, Corax says he has memories of 19, and the Emperor says that's a story for another day (I'm paraphrasing!). This heavily implies the 2 lost primarchs had already been discovered and destroyed/lost/whatever before Corax is found.
2. If this is the case, and if Russ did have a hand in the destruction of one or both of the lost legions, then this means Russ must have been found before Corax.
3. The Emperor also says that most of Corax's brothers have already been found (again paraphrasing) which puts Corax at least down to number 11 (10/19 already being discovered) and has therefore got impact upon when other Primarchs would have been discovered (Magnus, Lorgar, Lion).

The closest I am to nailing down any of the Primarch's positions other than the 3 specified (Horus 1, Dorn 7, AlphariusOmegon 20) is the penultimately discovered Primarch. Number 19 is one of either the Lion, Kurze, Angron or Lorgar. My money would be on either Kurze or Angron but that's just a gut feel.


----------



## forkmaster

Marcoos said:


> Sorry for the threadomancy, but I think this is probably the best place to post some additional information that has come up in Deliverance Lost.
> 
> 1. There is a flashback sequence to the meeting between the Emperor and Corax, where they discuss Corax's brothers. The Emperor says he has 17 brothers, Corax says he has memories of 19, and the Emperor says that's a story for another day (I'm paraphrasing!). This heavily implies the 2 lost primarchs had already been discovered and destroyed/lost/whatever before Corax is found.
> 2. If this is the case, and if Russ did have a hand in the destruction of one or both of the lost legions, then this means Russ must have been found before Corax.
> 3. The Emperor also says that most of Corax's brothers have already been found (again paraphrasing) which puts Corax at least down to number 11 (10/19 already being discovered) and has therefore got impact upon when other Primarchs would have been discovered (Magnus, Lorgar, Lion).
> 
> The closest I am to nailing down any of the Primarch's positions other than the 3 specified (Horus 1, Dorn 7, AlphariusOmegon 20) is the penultimately discovered Primarch. Number 19 is one of either the Lion, Kurze, Angron or Lorgar. My money would be on either Kurze or Angron but that's just a gut feel.


As you might have seen above with my post about the World Eaters (previously known as War Hounds) is that the Thousand Son sergeant from the Age of Darkness sort story mentions "Oh its War Hound, or arent they called World Eaters now a days?" meaning that they were found and renamed quite late in the story.

However then comes Graham McNeil and screwes that over and tells Angron has been around for at least 100 years.


----------



## Marcoos

Have you got a source for that? The Outcast Dead presumably? Any chance of a page ref?


----------



## forkmaster

Marcoos said:


> Have you got a source for that? The Outcast Dead presumably? Any chance of a page ref?


I finished it not too long ago, can check when I get the time, otherwise I cant be bothered.


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## GoRy

I've noticed only really 1-2 posts bring geographic location into the equation - However, Dorn was reasonably close to Terra yet found 7th, which means that geography may not feature too heavily, especially knowing that Caliban was closer than many yet all evidence points to it being found quite late.

I think it's also possible to read into stories - Look at how established on their worlds that both Curze and the Lion are - yet stories talk of them in the span of a mortal mans life - Luther for example, on a planet with rifles yet not cars or planes, being still in his prime, would not suggest the Lion was on Caliban that long before the coming of the Emperor, yet evidence points to him being one of the second "half" of the family found.

The HH series don't treat time well in a lot of ways, which isn't helping


----------



## AgentOrange24

SPOILER AHEAD. Don't know to fancily hide them. 

The latest book, *Deliverance Lost* has the Emperor telling Corax something along the lines of "many of your brothers have been found."

Suggests that Corax was, atleast, in the middle, if not towards the end.


----------



## Angel of Blood

It also suggests that the two missing primarchs had been both found and erased before Corax was found.


----------



## AgentOrange24

I think it does more than suggest.

I mean the Emperor straight up tells Corax that there is only 18, and that the story of the other two is for another day.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

raider1987 said:


> Although I have no proof what so ever for this, it really would not surprise me if Sanguinius was the second to be found. Horus was the only primarch found for 30 years, and he often remarked that Sanguinius was his closest brother. I bet after Sanguinius was found Horus was probably over the moon to have found a brother, an equal to have after so many years by his fathers side. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this is how it got started. As I said I have no proof this is just my theory. But its fun to speculate.



yeh i agree with this theory too. it would add abit of weight to why they were so close but also would make even more sense in the final battle on the vengeful spirit as you have the first 3 beings who basically started the crusade together pretty much end the crusade together in the same room. very poetic i think.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Angel of Blood said:


> It also suggests that the two missing primarchs had been both found and erased before Corax was found.


This would really screw up the order of things IMO. 

In _A Thousand Sons_ it is implied that Corax was found before Magnus, because Corax was one of the ones leading the witch hunt against the Thousand Sons and calling for their extermination when they were suffering from the flesh change. We also know that Magnus was with the Emperor when he found Lorgar but form _The First Heretic_ we also know that Lorgar knew his sanctioned brothers and was possibly even involved somehow in at least one of their sanctions. 

So yeah, saying now that Corax was found after the two unknown legions were sanctioned just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Radira

Hmm... now there is a problem, in fantasy flight games' DeathWatch rpg supplement book, Rites of Battle, which is a games workshop sanctioned book, so "canon" as much as any novel like HH series, in pg 75, under "Inıtıate of secrets" part, it states as follows : "When The Emperor left Terra in search of The Primarchs, The First he found was Lion El'Johnson, Primarch of The Dark Angels. From that day, The Dark Angels have held a sacred place in the history of the imperium and in the vaunted ranks of the Space marines. ". Most of the other arguments here are based on HH series, but this one is also canon so solve it out! :victory:


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Don't trust that book. They are called the first because they where the first legion formed, not because the lion was found first. Horus was found first.


----------



## Radira

I know what 1st legion means, theyre the first created, but its also an official book, what do you mean "dont trust that book", its plain contraversy, two canon in conflict, 
Horus being first found is a new trend, by saying new, i mean last 6 years with HH series. But its pretty new for a game and lore with 25 years of past. Before that there was no such thing as horus was first found. He WAS the first among primarchs meaning he was the most favoured. I understand BL adopts this view i am just pointing out the contraversy.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Well it has a number of other mistakes in it and it's a fantasy flight book, while it's authorised by GW it's not edited etc by Games Workshop and there's a number of errors and misinterpretations in it.

When it comes to fluff, go by GW, Black Library and then consider fantasy flight books.


----------



## Radira

I agree about it havin' mistakes, but Its official, its canon. Besides you cannot know if this particular one was a mistake just because it had other mistakes. So i just say its controversial, nothing more  HH series are quite new for me, im just an old player going hard to accept new facts :grin:


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

I wouldn't call it controversial, merely a ret-con. Happens all the time *coughnecronscough*.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Horus being the first Primarch discovered is not a new phenomenon, in fact it far pre-dates the Heresy series.


----------



## Eetion

Radira said:


> I know what 1st legion means, theyre the first created, but its also an official book, what do you mean "dont trust that book", its plain contraversy, two canon in conflict,
> Horus being first found is a new trend, by saying new, i mean last 6 years with HH series. But its pretty new for a game and lore with 25 years of past. Before that there was no such thing as horus was first found. He WAS the first among primarchs meaning he was the most favoured. I understand BL adopts this view i am just pointing out the contraversy.


Nah.. Horus being found first is WAY older than that, The Index Astartes series of books, so 2004 at the very latest (I could have sworn they were older than that though. But lexicanum says thats when IA4 was published.... so it must be right if Lexicanum says so. :wink:


----------



## Rems

Ah but those articles were published in White Dwarf a long time before the IA compilations came out. 

Besides Horus being the first found is even older than that. Various codecies and snippets of fluff mentioned it even before those articles. 

Horus has been the first found Primarch since there's been the idea of primarchs.


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## TheReverend

I've been playing for 18 years now and I can't remember a time when Horus wasn't the first Primarch found...


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## ckcrawford

That would be interesting if the Lion was found out later in the series to be the first primarch and the one that the Emperor loved the most. He just chose to hide all those facts to protect his son from falling into the powerlust that Horus did.


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## Lost&Damned

I completely don't understand you craw, the legions are numbered in two ways, firstly in order of creation, not love, so lion first, alpha legion second, then secondly they are ordered in number of who was discovered so Horus is first.
Being created first doesn't mean loved most, but being found first and having spent the most time with the emperor means being loved most.


----------



## Marcoos

Some new facts about the Primarch discovery order courtesy of Dead.Blue.Clown from the fantastic new novella Prince of Crows. I dont think they're a spoiler but I'll hide them anyway...



In a flashback scene, Konrad recalls his meeting with the Emperor. Also present were Dorn, Lorgar, Fulgrim and Ferrus.


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## Words_of_Truth

Well thats a funny bunch to be presented with.

"Welcome son, this is Dorn he's a bit of a hardass, this is Lorgar he's thinks the sun shines out of my ass, this is Fulgrim he likes pink and poetry and this is Ferrus, he can make things out of thin air like a magician."


----------



## Marcoos

I've updated this chart with all the latest info. In Legion order for simplicity.

Speculation, or my inferences, are highlighted thus.

1. The Lion - it appears that he was discovered after the Khan (Descent of Angels)? After Magnus, the Khan and Sanguinius (A Thousand Sons p322)
2. n/a - before Corax (Deliverance Lost)
3. Fulgrim - before Konrad Curze (see Index Astartes: Night Lords)
4. Perurabo - before Angron (see Tales of Heresy After Desh'ea)
5. The Khan - before the Lion (see above)
6. Leman Russ - possibly before Corax based on Corax being foubd after the 2 missing Primarchs had disappeared and Russ being involved in the disappearance
7. Rogal Dorn - found 7th (see The Lightning Tower), before Magnus (A Thousand Sons), before Curze (Prince of Crows)
8. Konrad Curze - after Dorn, Lorgar, Ferrus and Fulgrim (Prince of Crows), after Magnus because he was found before Lorgar
9. Sanguinius - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein), before The Lion (A Thousand Sons)
10. Ferrus Manus - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein), before Curze (Prince of Crows)
11. n/a - before Corax (Deliverance Lost)
12. Angron - after Vulkan and Peturabo (see Tales of Heresy After Desh'ea) Probably late in the Crusade (in Age of Darkness a Thousand Son refers to the World Eaters as War Hounds)
13. Raboute Guilleman - before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein)
14. Mortarion - a contradiction here - according to Flight of the Eisenstein he was found after Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Raboute Guilleman and Magnus, but according to A Thousand Sons he was found before Magnus. No idea which is correct here.
15. Magnus - before Lorgar (Index Asartes: Word Bearers), after Mortarion, Corax and Rogal Dorn (A Thousand Sons), before Mortarion (Flight of the Eisenstein), before The Lion (A Thousand Sons), before Curze because Curze is foubd after Lorgar
16. Horus - found 1st (various sources)
17. Lorgar - after Magnus (Index Astartes: Word Bearers), before Curze (Prince of Crows)
18. Vulkan - before Angron (Tales of Heresy: After Desh'ea), found after several of his brothers (Promethean Sun) implies he he is not oe of the first few
19. Corax - before Magnus (A Thousand Sons), "most" brothers found before Corax implies he was found later than 10th, after 2 missing Primarchs
20. Alpharius/Omegon - last (various sources)


----------



## DeathJester921

forkmaster said:


> As you might have seen above with my post about the World Eaters (previously known as War Hounds) is that the Thousand Son sergeant from the Age of Darkness sort story mentions "Oh its War Hound, or arent they called World Eaters now a days?" meaning that they were found and renamed quite late in the story.
> 
> However then comes Graham McNeil and screwes that over and tells Angron has been around for at least 100 years.


Uh, Angron was at Ullanor WITH Magnus and several other primarchs. And as we know, Ullanor was well before the Heresy even began. I think those Thousand Sons marines were off on their own expeditions for a while and never got wind of it up until sometime before Prospero was destroyed. That, or the name Warhounds just stuck long after they were renamed the World Eaters with certain Astartes.



Words_of_Truth said:


> this is Lorgar he's thinks the sun shines out of my ass


Lorgar: But it does father. Admit it.

Emperor: NEVER!


----------



## redmapa

> Angron was at Ullanor WITH Magnus and several other primarchs.


That doesnt mean much, Alpharius Omegon also sent an emissary to Ullanor (source:Legion) and he was the last primarch to be found...


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## DeathJester921

redmapa said:


> That doesnt mean much, Alpharius Omegon also sent an emissary to Ullanor (source:Legion) and he was the last primarch to be found...


Actually it does. Ullanor, like I said, was well before the heresy, meaning Angron's legion was renamed the World Eaters WELL before the Heresy. And depending on which book you believe, A Thousand Sons or The Outcast Dead, Prospero was destroyed perhaps a year or so prior to the start of the Heresy or directly following the Dropsite Massacre. That was the point I was trying to make was that the Warhounds were renamed the World Eaters long before Prospero was destroyed. Either the author goofed, or it was meant to show that those particular Thousand Sons marines hadn't gotten the memo until recently before landing on Prospero after it was destroyed.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Actually Ullanor wasn't that far aay from the Heresy, can't remember which story but the Eldar was absolutely surprised when, think it was Ferrus in his Primarchs short story, that Horus had already been made Warmaster and the Eldar guy basically said it's already begun.


----------



## Marcoos

The climax to the Ullanor crusade was pretty much just before the start of Horus Rising. The Imperial Fists were with the Luna Wolves finalising plans for the continuation of the Great Crusade before returning to Terra whilst the conquest of (totally from memory so forgive me if this is wrong) 63-19 was happening. That the Luna Wolves were still called Luna Wolves, and not Sons of Horus, is an indication of that campaign being close to the Illanor campaign. It might be a period of 3 years between the two but i would guess at less.


----------



## redmapa

> Actually it does. Ullanor, like I said, was well before the heresy, meaning Angron's legion was renamed the World Eaters WELL before the Heresy. And depending on which book you believe, A Thousand Sons or The Outcast Dead, Prospero was destroyed perhaps a year or so prior to the start of the Heresy or directly following the Dropsite Massacre. That was the point I was trying to make was that the Warhounds were renamed the World Eaters long before Prospero was destroyed. Either the author goofed, or it was meant to show that those particular Thousand Sons marines hadn't gotten the memo until recently before landing on Prospero after it was destroyed


My point was that that doesnt really mean much since by the time of the Ullanor Triumph the crusade is already close to the heresy with both of the lost legions purged and every other primarch found and reunited with its legion, now Im not saying that angron wasnt found later in the crusade but that using ullanor as proof of it is quite meaningless because Ullanor happens 2 years before the heresy, everything is already set for the heresy itself (source: Legion) and we dont know how long it took for Horus to conquer Ullanor, it might've been 2 years or maybe a month and the Ullanor ceremony could've taken several months..


----------



## ckcrawford

Lost&Damned said:


> I completely don't understand you craw, the legions are numbered in two ways, firstly in order of creation, not love, so lion first, alpha legion second, then secondly they are ordered in number of who was discovered so Horus is first.
> Being created first doesn't mean loved most, but being found first and having spent the most time with the emperor means being loved most.


I said it would be interesting due to established cannon which was presented 2 pages ago you Silly Sally! :sarcastichand: I wouldn't put my cards on it of course as it is lore set in the year 40,000. It could mean that Imperial Propaganda expunged the records of those and filled them in with loyalist information.


----------



## nevynxxx

For the people trying to relate where the planet is to when the Primarch was found. Don't. Remember they were scattered via the warp, and so scattered in time as well as space. The emperor could have passed by a given planet a few times in his search, before the Primarch actually "popped" out onto that planet.....


----------



## DeathJester921

nevynxxx said:


> For the people trying to relate where the planet is to when the Primarch was found. Don't. Remember they were scattered via the warp, and so scattered in time as well as space. The emperor could have passed by a given planet a few times in his search, before the Primarch actually "popped" out onto that planet.....


Uh, we already know which planets the primarchs landed on. Were trying to figure out what order they were found in. Dorn being the 7th, Horus the 1st, and Alpharius Omegon being the last. The rest is relatively unknown.


----------



## Marcoos

Death Jester, i think the point Nevynn is making is that the proximity of the Primarch's homeworld to Terra is not necessarily a useful guide to determining their discovery order. There have been suggestions that some Primarchs were found early because their homeworld is close to Terra, but under that logic Guilleman would almost certainly have been last due to the distance of Macragge to Terra. However we know Guilleman was found before Mortarion (from Flight of the Eisenstein) and therefore also before Magnus, Lorgar, Curze and the Lion, which means he was at the latest the 14th found Primarch. Therefore proximity to Terra does not always equal being discovered early.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Personal Speculated First 5 (1-5): Horus, Perturabo, Fulgrim, The Khan, Corax.


(corvus)‘What is this crusade? How many of my brothers have you found?’
‘Most of them,’ replied the Emperor. ‘I have vast armies: the Legiones
Astartes. As you are crafted from me, so they are created from you. The
primarchs are the generals of those armies, leading humanity’s reconquest
of the galaxy.
going by this quote, he isnt part of the first five, most likley part of the last 5

And contrary to your 14th bullet point, mortarion was found after magnus:
-14. Mortarion, Corax and Dorn were discovered before Magnus (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 385-387)

Garro had been there as the Emperor crossed the galaxy in search of his star-lost children Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman, Magnus and the rest. With each reuniting, the Lord of Mankind had gifted his sons with command
of the forces that had been created in their image. When at
last the Emperor came to Barbarus and discovered the gaunt
warrior foundling leading its oppressed people, he had located
the avatar of the XIV Legion. (page 119, flight of the Einstein)


----------



## Marcoos

Lost&Damned said:


> And contrary to your 14th bullet point, mortarion was found after magnus:
> -14. Mortarion, Corax and Dorn were discovered before Magnus (Source: A Thousand Sons Page 385-387)
> 
> Garro had been there as the Emperor crossed the galaxy in search of his star-lost children Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman, Magnus and the rest. With each reuniting, the Lord of Mankind had gifted his sons with command
> of the forces that had been created in their image. When at
> last the Emperor came to Barbarus and discovered the gaunt
> warrior foundling leading its oppressed people, he had located
> the avatar of the XIV Legion. (page 119, flight of the Einstein)


If this is aimed at my list, how is it contrary to my point? I make exactly the same comments, and even list it as a contradiction.


----------



## forkmaster

There is another contradictive source from _The Outcast Dead_ where a World Eater says he hadn't seen Angron in over 100 years, which implies they had been around for a long time. Otherwise if you ask me, I think Angron was found really late and that was just a error on McNeill account.

Also Ive been re-reading _Fulgrim_. It was Horus who sent the Wolves directly after _False Gods_ to ransack Prospero. The warning of Magnus was sent to Terra before _Galaxy in Flames_, BUT thanks to the awesome power of the Emperor it was delayed (as the Emperor knew what devastated force it had. Then with the trickster of the Warp the time was different on Terra and on Prospero.

That's why Magnus knew he had screw up already even before he uttered a word. James Swallow and McNeill has confirmed this. Just like the wird "adding Konrad Cruze to the 2nd wave at Isstvan" was explained in _The Outcast Dead_, so will this be explained in a future novel.


----------



## nevynxxx

Marcoos said:


> Death Jester, i think the point Nevynn is making is that the proximity of the Primarch's homeworld to Terra is not necessarily a useful guide to determining their discovery order. There have been suggestions that some Primarchs were found early because their homeworld is close to Terra, but under that logic Guilleman would almost certainly have been last due to the distance of Macragge to Terra. However we know Guilleman was found before Mortarion (from Flight of the Eisenstein) and therefore also before Magnus, Lorgar, Curze and the Lion, which means he was at the latest the 14th found Primarch. Therefore proximity to Terra does not always equal being discovered early.


Thanks Marcoos :grin:


----------



## forkmaster

And many think in 2D galaxy-scale, and not the 3D. So from a view above the planets migth seem close but on a 3D scale they might be much much further away.


----------



## forkmaster

According to _The Lion_ on page 305, the Death Guard were newly renamed when they and Dark Angels fought together.


----------



## naglfar

A brief recap then of what we definitely know as far as I can tell.

- Horus was found first and no other primarchs were found for 30 years.

- 5 more primarchs were then found though it is unclear exactly which.

- Rogal Dorn was then found 7th.

- 12 more primarchs were then found, these included in this order (but with other primarchs possibly recovered in between them) - Corax, Magnus, Lorgar and Curze.

- Alpharius/Omegon was discovered 20th and last.


----------



## Marcoos

naglfar said:


> A brief recap then of what we definitely know as far as I can tell.
> 
> - Horus was found first and no other primarchs were found for 30 years.
> 
> - 5 more primarchs were then found though it is unclear exactly which.
> 
> - Rogal Dorn was then found 7th.
> 
> - 12 more primarchs were then found, these included in this order (but with other primarchs possibly recovered in between them) - Corax, Magnus, Lorgar and Curze.
> 
> - Alpharius/Omegon was discovered 20th and last.


We know a lot more than this! I have a post on page 8 that summarises it all.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

DeathJester921 said:


> Actually it does. Ullanor, like I said, was well before the heresy, meaning Angron's legion was renamed the World Eaters WELL before the Heresy. And depending on which book you believe, A Thousand Sons or The Outcast Dead, Prospero was destroyed perhaps a year or so prior to the start of the Heresy or directly following the Dropsite Massacre. That was the point I was trying to make was that the Warhounds were renamed the World Eaters long before Prospero was destroyed. Either the author goofed, or it was meant to show that those particular Thousand Sons marines hadn't gotten the memo until recently before landing on Prospero after it was destroyed.


Another possible explanation is many of the Thousand Sons were recruited directly from Terra prior to the finding of either Magnus or Angron, so the change in name to the World Eaters might be just another corporate re-branding to them. 

Granted, I haven't read The Outcast Dead, but it's pretty clear in A Thousand Sons that the Heresy was already under way by the time Prospero burns. In the months leading up to the attack, Ahriman has the vision of the SW/Costodes fleet being in a bubble of calm in the warp storms that kicked up following Horus's fall to Chaos. Before Isstvan III or V, who knows, but I'm not aware of any plot points that would be driven by that particular piece of timing.


----------



## forkmaster

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Another possible explanation is many of the Thousand Sons were recruited directly from Terra prior to the finding of either Magnus or Angron, so the change in name to the World Eaters might be just another corporate re-branding to them.
> 
> Granted, I haven't read The Outcast Dead, but it's pretty clear in A Thousand Sons that the Heresy was already under way by the time Prospero burns. In the months leading up to the attack, Ahriman has the vision of the SW/Costodes fleet being in a bubble of calm in the warp storms that kicked up following Horus's fall to Chaos. Before Isstvan III or V, who knows, but I'm not aware of any plot points that would be driven by that particular piece of timing.


The book Fulgrim states, as well Fear to Tread, Prospero burned before Isstvan III or during it. But not after Isstvan V.


----------



## naglfar

Marcoos said:


> We know a lot more than this! I have a post on page 8 that summarises it all.


I don't mean the 'this Primarch came before that one' stuff, I meant the definite order stuff 

For example: Fulgrim being found before Magnus is interesting but it doesn't give us any indication of the number of his discovery at all.

We know Horus was 1st

We know Dorn was 7th

We know Corax, Magnus, Lorgar and Curse were found between 8-19 place.

We know that Alpharius/Omegon was 20th.


As far as I can tell the other primarchs can't be narrowed down to a number or a range of numbers.


----------



## Marcoos

If you only want definates, then Horus, Dorn and Alpharius are it. But if you want to narrow down ranges and if you use my summary of the collected facts (and supposition), you can narrow down a lot more of the discovery orders than that ;-)

You're also wrong about Corax, Magnus and Lorgar. None of those could be the 19th found Primarch as Corax was found before Magnus, Magnus before Lorgar, and Lorgar before Curze.

Only 3 names remainin the frame for the 19th found Primarch: The Lion, Curze or Angron.


----------



## naglfar

Marcoos said:


> If you only want definates, then Horus, Dorn and Alpharius are it. But if you want to narrow down ranges and if you use my summary of the collected facts (and supposition), you can narrow down a lot more of the discovery orders than that ;-)
> 
> You're also wrong about Corax, Magnus and Lorgar. None of those could be the 19th found Primarch as Corax was found before Magnus, Magnus before Lorgar, and Lorgar before Curze.
> 
> Only 3 names remainin the frame for the 19th found Primarch: The Lion, Curze or Angron.



You're still not really getting what I mean here  I'm talking about a definite order only. Your list is great, I’m not trying to trivialise it or anything, what I was interested in doing was confirming a second type of list, a definite order one.

We know only three definite numbers, 1, 7 and 20. All we learn from Horus being in 1st is that everyone else came after him and all we learn from Alpharius being 20th is that everyone else came before, neither of those tells us anything about the order beyond that.

It's Dorn being 7th that is the most useful. He allows us to work out some of the order because we have one definite point of reference.Anyone who came after Dorn, or by extension anyone who came after them, can be put in an order. This includes, Corax (he came after Dorn), Magnus (he came after Corax), Lorgar (he came after Magnus) and Curze (he came after Lorgar.

So basically, these primarchs were discovered in this order, though there were obviously other primarchs found in between them:

Horus
Dorn
Corax
Magnus
Lorgar
Curze
Alpharius/Omegon

For example, we may know that the Lion was found after Magnus, but we can’t add him to the definite order list because he could have come before or after Curze for instance.

If you can point out any other primarch to add into the order that's cool, I just can't see any myself.


----------



## Marcoos

Ah that's better, I understand what you are trying to achieve now.

This does help with a new perspective on the discovery order, but I feel it has limitations.

For instance, a similar order could be:
Horus
Sanguinius
Mortarion
Magnus
Lorgar
Curze
Alpharius

I do have a question about your list; can you provide a reference for Corax coming after Dorn?


----------



## naglfar

Marcoos said:


> Ah that's better, I understand what you are trying to achieve now.
> 
> This does help with a new perspective on the discovery order, but I feel it has limitations.
> 
> For instance, a similar order could be:
> Horus
> Sanguinius
> Mortarion
> Magnus
> Lorgar
> Curze
> Alpharius
> 
> I do have a question about your list; can you provide a reference for Corax coming after Dorn?




Sure, Corax couldn’t have been found before Dorn because that would have meant he was, at most, the 6th primarch recovered and the point about most of his brothers having already been found wouldn’t make sense, so he must have been found after Dorn.

Given the contradiction between Flight of the Eisenstein and Thousand Sons, I really wouldn’t like to make a guess about Sanguinius and Mortarion and then still call my list a definite order list. Hopefully BL will clear this up at some point.



But I do love making guesses, I personally reckon Sanguinius was the second primarch found, explaining why Horus was closer to him than any of the other primarchs as it was just the two of them and the Emp for a while. It also likely means that Chaos used Sanguinius' killing as the final test for Horus before the Emperor himself, to see if he was dedicated enough. No proof for that, but nothing so far contradicts it so I'll keep thinking it for now


----------



## naglfar

Had a thought concerning the apparent contradictions about the order of the primarchs.

What if there is a difference between a primarch's discovery and their recovery?

For instance (and I'm making these figures up as an example of what I mean here they aren't actual years with any basis in fluff), let's say one account said Magnus was discovered 200 years before the Horus Heresy, but another said he was recovered 150 years before the Horus Heresy, that would seem like a contradiction. But Magnus could have been said to have been 'discovered' as soon as the Emperor found him psychically, but 'recovered' only when the actual Emperor arrived in a starship. That way there actually wouldn't be a contradiction at all.

I don't have the novels here with me to check that out, but could the above explain any of the seeming contradictions, for instance with Mortarion who is said to have been found both before and after Magnus i.e. Mortarion was found before Magnus was 'recovered' but after he was 'discovered' psychically?


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## DasBotsch

I have a theory in regards to some of the last primarchs to be discovered. 

It is well established that Alpharius/Omegon was the last one discovered, 30 years before the HH broke out (Legion) so roughly 170 years into the Great Crusade, he can sit at number 20 comfortably.

The Lion can be speculated as being one of the last found. Reading up on Fallen Angels, the Lion for various reasons sent a good proportion of his Astartes back to Caliban after their first engagement in the 147th year of the Crusade; given that the creation of an Astartes ranges between 12-18 years you could guess that the Lion was discovered around about 130 years into the Crusade.

Curze of the Night Lords is another interesting figure. Though it has been mentioned that his fleets were active half a century before the HH broke out (the Dark King i think?) there is reason to believe that Curze was found directly after the Lion. I only draw this from the encounter both the Lion and Curze had with one another in the short story 'Savage Weapons'. It seems like a running trend among the Emperors' Sons that the closer the brothers were to discovery the more closer the bonds were, as well as animosities (Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus is a major example) 

By all means this is a theory but it would be good to expand on; could there be other possibilities or filler-inners to the ones i have mentioned?


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## naglfar

Am listening to Outcast Dead and came across a new piece of information on the discovery order. Can't give you a page number obviously but it is in Chapter 16. No spoilers really.

It is stated that World Eater Tigore hasn't seen his primarch for over 100 years, that means that Angron wasn't one of the later primarchs found and puts him at least before the Lion (and Alpharius obviously).

That also, as near as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong here, means that the 19th primarch found is now down to only Curze or the Lion.

It also tells us that Vulkan and Perturabo were recovered in the first half of the crusade (we already knew that Horus, Dorn, Corax, both Lost Primarchs, Magnus and I'm pretty sure Lorgar too were found that early).


----------



## forkmaster

naglfar said:


> Am listening to Outcast Dead and came across a new piece of information on the discovery order. Can't give you a page number obviously but it is in Chapter 16. No spoilers really.
> 
> It is stated that World Eater Tigore hasn't seen his primarch for over 100 years, that means that Angron wasn't one of the later primarchs found and puts him at least before the Lion (and Alpharius obviously).
> 
> That also, as near as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong here, means that the 19th primarch found is now down to only Curze or the Lion.
> 
> It also tells us that Vulkan and Perturabo were recovered in the first half of the crusade (we already knew that Horus, Dorn, Corax, both Lost Primarchs, Magnus and I'm pretty sure Lorgar too were found that early).


I noticed that as well and personally I think that would be an error as many things points towards Angron being one of the later Primarchs to be discovered. He only acted for a short command before he was sent to be controlled by Horus (False Gods) and they were renamed from War Hounds to Wordl Eaters. In the short Rebirth, a Thousand Son first calls Kharn for War Hound only then to correct himself saying "Oh yeah, he's a World Eater now," saying they changed only recently.

Edit: Unless they really were the Warhounds for over 100 years, which could be true as well.


----------



## naglfar

forkmaster said:


> I noticed that as well and personally I think that would be an error as many things points towards Angron being one of the later Primarchs to be discovered. He only acted for a short command before he was sent to be controlled by Horus (False Gods) and they were renamed from War Hounds to Wordl Eaters. In the short Rebirth, a Thousand Son first calls Kharn for War Hound only then to correct himself saying "Oh yeah, he's a World Eater now," saying they changed only recently.
> 
> Edit: Unless they really were the Warhounds for over 100 years, which could be true as well.


Yeah, I pondered this as well, it could be the case that only the Emperor could give permission for a legion to be renamed and due to Angron's slightly dodgy personality he wasn't granted that honour for a century or so and they remained the War Hounds until not long before the heresy.

Another possibiliy is that while Angron may have fought beside the War Hounds for all that time, he could perhaps have not been in command of them until much later i.e. because he was a bit of a loose cannon the Emperor wouldn't grant him total control until he proved himself or something.

To be honest, I think that the authors have been told to put in whatever time periods etc they think when they write the books and editorial staff check with the Gods that be if it's okay and then change them as appropriate, but sometimes they forget i.e. Ferus Manus making a weapon for Vulkan 200 years before the heresy when he know for a fact Horus was the only primarch recovered at that time. It seems a bit more likely to me than that all the BL authors are given a full on list of primarch recovery orders and stuff to use and then sworn to secrecy about it.


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## Marcoos

New info on the from the Forgeworld book Betrayal. Sanguinius was definitely found before Angron. It also infers the World Eaters are oe of the later found legions (might be more explicit than that - the book as been confiscated from me by the wife - apparently I'm not supposed to be reading my Christmas presents in October!).


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## forkmaster

Marcoos said:


> New info on the from the Forgeworld book Betrayal. Sanguinius was definitely found before Angron. It also infers the World Eaters are oe of the later found legions (might be more explicit than that - the book as been confiscated from me by the wife - apparently I'm not supposed to be reading my Christmas presents in October!).


Im thinking about ordering that book sometime in the future. What special characters are in it beside Angron?


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## Rems

Angron, Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion and the Primarchs in it.

Abaddon and Loken are in it, as is Ancient Rylanor and Saul Tarvitz and a few others for the other legions who haven't appeared in the books.


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## Marcoos

Another bit of info from Brotherhood of the Storm; the White Scars have been fighting under the Khan for 120 years. I'm not usually a fan of using the number of years as anything factual, due to the cavalier way some of the figures get thrown out there (never mind the obvious mistakes!), but this seems pretty exact to me. 

Someone with a better grasp of the various estimated discovery dates than I have might be able to put 120 years into context. Maybe? Hopefully?


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## Stephen_Newman

Also looking at the FW Heresy book gives us a star map that shows us not only the locations such as Isstvan and Davin but also the known homeorlds of the primarchs (apart from Alpharius, Dorn (who is listed as Terra and 7th anyway), Angron and the two lost primarchs (because we never knew what worlds they came from)).

Following logically on this map I am sure we can get a closer approximation of when the Primarchs might have been found due to distance from Terra. For example due to the extreme reach of Nostramo I am almost certain Kurze was one of the last if not the 19th Primarch found.

Could anyone who has the book be able to give me more of a hand here?


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## TheNightHawk

*Well...*

Dorn was always listed as having been found aboard the Phalanx in the Inwit sector, which is shown below Cthonia on the new FW map.

Curze does come across as being one of the latter Primarchs to have been found.


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## Marcoos

Few more pieces of info from Angel Exterminatus.

Peturabo has been around for 150 years in the Great Crusade so that puts his discovery before the Khan.

There. Is also a passage reminiscing about Peturabo swearing himself to he Emperor. Fulgrim has done this ritual years earlier, and Magnus has already done it, so that would put both of them before Peturabo.


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## Marcoos

I've written a blog post covering all the known details, an attempt to reconcile some contradictory information, and my own wildly speculative discovery order.

It's here if you want to read it: http://baddice.co.uk/primarch-discovery-order/


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## Angel of Blood

Not sure if I've mentioned this within this thread yet, think I have, but either way I would put The Lion after Lorgar. The events of Monarchia happened roughly fifty years before the Horus Heresy began, and just from the book I would say that Lorgar had led his legion for some time already before those events. The Lion is discovered in _Descent of Angels_ and an unknown amount of time passes before what appears to be one of their earliest engagements when they take over from the White Scars. _Fallen Angels_, then picks up on the story fifty years later, with the Heresy starting then. From this I would place the Lions discovery a little before the events of Monarchia and therefore after Lorgar.


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## mal310

Angel of Blood said:


> Not sure if I've mentioned this within this thread yet, think I have, but either way I would put The Lion after Lorgar. The events of Monarchia happened roughly fifty years before the Horus Heresy began, and just from the book I would say that Lorgar had led his legion for some time already before those events. The Lion is discovered in _Descent of Angels_ and an unknown amount of time passes before what appears to be one of their earliest engagements when they take over from the White Scars. _Fallen Angels_, then picks up on the story fifty years later, with the Heresy starting then. From this I would place the Lions discovery a little before the events of Monarchia and therefore after Lorgar.


I think that lack of continuity from BL/GW in this area is very poor. Its not hard for them to sit down and sort this out. Get ADB and Abnett to sort it (it took Aaron to sit down and sort the Legion sizes out). I ignore the Corax reference in Deliverance Lost as I'd like to think that when they were all found they had a big party/meeting, but that's just me. I'd also like to think that they were all found by at least 60 - 70 years into the great crusade max. Gives them all more than a 100 years fighting for the Emperor (minus the lost 2) before the Heresy. I also don't pay any notice to the Decent of Angels timeline. They have already changed some of the details from that book (Luther only fighting in one engagement for example).

On a side note I wonder if they will change any of the continuity issues (like legion sizes) when the re-release the HH books in hardback.


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## Marcoos

mal310 said:


> On a side note I wonder if they will change any of the continuity issues (like legion sizes) when the re-release the HH books in hardback.


I asked this at the BL Weekender, and was told they are looking at changing any continuity errors. I believe these include the Emperor's Children being written as the only legion to wear the Aquila (which isn't true, I believe their unique honour is to wear the Imperial Eagle - I could be wrong on this though), and continuity of the Primarch discovery order. I don't know whether this is definitely going ahead, and when/if it will start though.


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## forkmaster

Very nice blog piece! You have really done your homework. I would however place Magnus further up the list since he looks like the Emps 2nd favorite (until he is lost to forbidden lore), being in the game for a really long time. Otherwise I do agree with you.

Then you really have to take some information casually and think from whose perspective is it from. If its seen from a individual character, then perhaps that character could be wrong.


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## Words_of_Truth

Mortarion is one of the last to be found apparently he wasn't found for over 8 decades according to the Dusk Raiders part of the Death Guard entry in _Betrayal_. The Librarius program was already up and running when he turned up as well.


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## Marcoos

Superb! That would put his discovery around the same time as the Khan. And it sounds as though they have addressed the contradiction. That would however mean we would have to rethink the Lion's discovery period (he's before Mortarion, so not discovered in the last 50yrs).


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## Words_of_Truth

Marcoos said:


> Superb! That would put his discovery around the same time as the Khan. And it sounds as though they have addressed the contradiction. That would however mean we would have to rethink the Lion's discovery period (he's before Mortarion, so not discovered in the last 50yrs).


It also says Perturabo and the Lion actively shunned him.


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## Angel of Blood

Ughh, turning the continuity into a bit of a mess really.


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## Marcoos

Angel of Blood said:


> Not sure if I've mentioned this within this thread yet, think I have, but either way I would put The Lion after Lorgar. The events of Monarchia happened roughly fifty years before the Horus Heresy began, and just from the book I would say that Lorgar had led his legion for some time already before those events. The Lion is discovered in _Descent of Angels_ and an unknown amount of time passes before what appears to be one of their earliest engagements when they take over from the White Scars. _Fallen Angels_, then picks up on the story fifty years later, with the Heresy starting then. From this I would place the Lions discovery a little before the events of Monarchia and therefore after Lorgar.


I've done some re-reading of The First Heretic and think I can back up your opinion here. Monarchia was 43 years before Istvaan V, and there are several references from conversations around the time of the events on Monarchia to Lorgar being in the crusade for around 100yrs. This puts his length of time in the great crusade as being around 143yrs, so he would have been discovered just after Peturabo. This also makes sense as Peturabo appears to be just after Magnus, and Magnus was with the Emperor at the finding of Lorgar.


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## Angel of Blood

Well from _Betrayer_, Angron was found after Horus(obviously), Guilliman, Dorn and the Lion. 

EDIT: Also he was found 100 years before the Heresy


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## forkmaster

Angel of Blood said:


> Well from _Betrayer_, Angron was found after Horus(obviously), Guilliman, Dorn and the Lion.
> 
> EDIT: Also he was found 100 years before the Heresy


Well that could work with the The Outcast Dead quote that the WE havent seen his Primarch for over a 100 years then! Because he only just met him then ran out on the Great Crusade!


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## DasBotsch

Words_of_Truth said:


> It also says Perturabo and the Lion actively shunned him.


In the anthology 'The Primarchs' the Lion and Mortarion are mentioned as having took part in a campaign JUST as the Dusk Raiders were renamed the Death Guard. Was Mortarion one of the last Primarchs to be discovered?

Can there be any solid attempt to putting together the discovery order without knowing the discovery dates to the LostPrimarchs?


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## Mossy Toes

Official word from on high about the Primarch discovery order. This from Laurie Goulding, one of the editors at Black Library, on his fansite "The First Expedition" (formerly "The Great Crusade"):



> Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:
> 
> Horus
> Leman Russ
> [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
> Ferrus Manus
> Fulgrim
> Vulkan
> Rogal Dorn
> Roboute Guilliman
> Magnus the Red
> Sanguinius
> Lion El'Jonson
> Perturabo
> Mortarion
> Lorgar
> Jaghatai Khan
> Konrad Curze
> Angron
> Corax
> [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
> Alpharius
> 
> Please bear in mind that there is a difference between a primarch being found, and a primarch taking command of their Legion.


Original post.


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## BlackGuard

Interesting. One of the lost primarchs are censured near the end of the Great Crusade (relatively speaking of coarse). Gives more credence that he must have been more bat-shit crazy than Angron to be found so late, and slain so quickly.


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## Stephen_Newman

I disagree with that list for several reasons.

Mostly because in Deliverance Lost Corax, upon meeting his father, remembers that he has 19 brothers but the Emperor corrects hims saying he only has 17 now. This to me HEAVILY implies that the two missing primarchs had already been found and lost before Corax was found. 

As for more of my theories I am in the belief that with Alpharius being last I would place Curze at number 19, Corax at number 18 and Mortarion at numeber 17. Then Guilliman at number 16. These are made entirely on guesswork to the information we have as well as looking at the space map found in _Betrayal_ which shows the planets of these Primarchs to be rather isolated at the edges of the then emergent Imperium.


----------



## Phoebus

I submitted the following post in the topic linked to by Mossy Toes:



> Laurie,
> 
> First, thanks for that post. It's really nice to have a no-kidding "discovery order". I do have some questions, though:
> 
> Luther returned from the Dark Angels' "first campaign" ('Descent of Angels', pg 211) on the 147th year of the Great Crusade ('Fallen Angels', pg 7). There is no implication that other campaigns have been fought, or that the Lion waited before taking command of the Dark Angels. 'Grey Angel', however, states that Luther fought alongside Abaddon at some point before his exile. This is merely my opinion, and not an attack on John French, but I think it's hard to find room for that interpretation in 'Descent of Angels'.
> 
> I bring this up to show the context surrounding the Lion's order of discovery. With that in mind, consider the idea that the Lion was supposedly found before Jaghatai Khan. 'Descent of Angels' strongly implies that it is the Dark Angels who are the junior Legion upon arrival to Sarosh, whose Primarch-led fleet is a secondary one lacking the resources to wage its own campaigns.
> 
> Or, consider Lorgar when compared to the Lion. The events of Monarchia happened 43 years prior to Isstvan V (per the introduction to "The First Heretic"), or roughly the 157th year of the Great Crusade. Lest we think that Lorgar might have been found in the ten years since Luther went home, though, in pg 63 of 'The First Heretic' Kor Phaeron states that they (he and Lorgar) "have worshipped at the wrong altar for over a hundred years ..." This would imply that Lorgar was found before the 57th year of the Great Crusade. In order for the above order of discovery/command to work, then, Lorgar must not have commanded the XVII Legion for ninety years.
> 
> Similarly, let's consider Angron. On page 152 of 'Betrayer', Gharte the World Eater states that "Seventy years of serving the Butcher and his Nails is long enough." The battle of Armatura occurred one year after Isstvan V, which means Angron had been found before the 140th year of the Great Crusade. That places him prior to the Lion as well, unless he had to wait several years before he took command. 'After Desh'ea', though, doesn't imply that... It implies a fairly immediate (if bloody and brutal!) process wherein Kharn convinces his Primarch to assume command.
> 
> Also, let's look at Perturabo. On page 51 of 'Angel Exterminatus', we are told that Perturabo discovered the crumbling plans from which he designed the Cavea Ferrum a century and a half prior to the book's events. That puts his discovery at least somewhere near the 50th year of the Great Crusade. Page 365 also speaks of "a century and more of war".
> 
> Finally, 'Deliverance Lost' has the Emperor referring to the expunged Primarchs in conversation with Corax... and the implication is that they are BOTH gone. The order of discovery offered, though, has Corax discovered and/or assuming command prior to one of the expunged Primarchs being found.
> 
> I know, I know, the warp plays a role, and no clock is perfect given the distances involved in galactic travel. Still, when the author goes out of his way to offer me a date relative to the Great Crusade or to a defining event of the Great Crusade or the Heresy, I think it would be a shame to ignore it for fear of it being irrelevant due the issues the warp poses. And in this case, if the Black Library folks are using this list as a reference for their future writing, doesn't it matter that the list disregards what's already been written?
> 
> I hate to sound rude, it's not my intent to tell you guys you're doing a bad job (I love the books!)... but in this case, either ...
> 1. ... I noticed inside of 30 minutes that a list created after consulting the latest books had at least three instances that contradicted previously published material, or ...
> 2. ... the dates offered in said material were either incorrect or subject to warp vagary.
> 
> (Or maybe the detail you alluded to being fixed has to do with the date marking Luther's return to Caliban in 'Fallen Angels' being adjusted, in which case... well played.)
> 
> In the case of #2, perhaps there should be less emphasis on dates in the novels, more emphasis on the dates not being absolute, or a combination of both. But if it's #1, I wholeheartedly offer my services as a part-time fact-checker - for free! Kidding, kidding. But no, seriously. I'll do it.
> 
> Again, I hope you don't take this as me hating on the Black Library or the Horus Heresy. When most of my complaints amount to stuff like, "This date doesn't match with that Primarch!" then you guys are doing a good job.
> 
> Cheers!


Maybe Laurie will offer some clarification, but one of his subsequents posts indicated that the list was not up for discussion. C'est la vie!

*EDIT:* good catch, Stephen_Newman!


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## DarthMarko

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree with that list for several reasons.
> 
> Mostly because in Deliverance Lost Corax, upon meeting his father, remembers that he has 19 brothers but the Emperor corrects hims saying he only has 17 now. This to me HEAVILY implies that the two missing primarchs had already been found and lost before Corax was found.
> 
> As for more of my theories I am in the belief that with Alpharius being last I would place Curze at number 19, Corax at number 18 and Mortarion at numeber 17. Then Guilliman at number 16. These are made entirely on guesswork to the information we have as well as looking at the space map found in _Betrayal_ which shows the planets of these Primarchs to be rather isolated at the edges of the then emergent Imperium.


You disagree because author from BL wroted something in HIS book which is contradicting? WOW...Actually this is a correct list...


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## Stephen_Newman

DarthMarko said:


> You disagree because author from BL wroted something in HIS book which is contradicting? WOW...Actually this is a correct list...


It was Gav Thorpe who wrote deliverance lost. Had nothing to do with laurie Golding although it may have been edited by him.


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## Phoebus

See above, DarthMarko. The list that Laurie offered seems to contradict several BL books.


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## DarthMarko

Phoebus said:


> See above, DarthMarko. The list that Laurie offered seems to contradict several BL books.


But BL is contradicting in everything, I mean that's why I use codex as sacred material...
Also - even Abnett said that "their books shouldn't be used as canon before codex, because that's their(writers) interpretation of the universe"... 
So, dude why are you even bothered by contadiction from the BL - I mean that's their thing, and again this list is fine by me...Also in "Wolf's honor" there is a mention of only Horus,Russ and Empy (when Russ punched the Emperor after he was removing him from Horus),and even a missing P is in place (insert sanction)....


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## Veteran Sergeant

Stephen_Newman said:


> As for more of my theories I am in the belief that with Alpharius being last I would place Curze at number 19, Corax at number 18 and Mortarion at numeber 17. Then Guilliman at number 16. These are made entirely on guesswork to the information we have as well as looking at the space map found in _Betrayal_ which shows the planets of these Primarchs to be rather isolated at the edges of the then emergent Imperium.


It does seem odd that Guilliman would be such an early discovery, though the existing fluff seems to support the idea that he was definitely in the first ten. 

I can only offer a few ideas: One, that Ultramar had expanded to the galactic west, so the Emperor found out about him earlier? Maybe his expanded presence made him stick out more when the Emperor was searching the Warp for his lost sons? I mean, out of all the primarchs, most were warlords and kings. Guilliman was already an _emperor_ in his own right when the Emperor showed up. Maybe Ultramar had its own network of astropaths and such that were a giant shiny beacon in the Warp of "Wow, something interesting over here."

The other is dumb luck. The galaxy is a big place. Could be that some primarchs were passed by, by accident. With countless light years between star systems, maybe some of the primarchs were just "skipped over" and found later. We don't really know for sure that the Great Crusade followed a linear path, island-hopping Pacific theater WW2 style.


The final one is this: It's Games Workshop and the Black Library, lol. We already know, with certainty, that this list is categorically impossible without retcons to several works from the Heresy series. Screw your logic. :laugh:


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## Phoebus

DarthMarko said:


> So, dude why are you even bothered by contadiction from the BL - I mean that's their thing, and again this list is fine by me...


Because errors in an individual novel are one thing, but this is a specific effort to aid authors and eliminate errors by setting up a firm order of discovery. Thus, when you see that there are apparently obvious errors within said list, that's... kind of worse. I mean, it's one thing for one author and his editor to contradict a novel that they probably were not studying when coming up with their own timeline. It's quite another thing when you say that you created said list after also consulting the various novels of the same series.

If this list if fine by you, fair enough. Personally, I'm frustrated when less than 30 minutes of searching for the words "century", "hundred", and "years" through my eBooks showed that it's seemingly untenable for Lorgar, Angron, and the Khan to be found after the Lion, or for Corax to have been found before the second missing Primarch.

Even if Laurie does have some ace up his sleeve regarding these contradictions, the fact remains that for this list to stand we kind of have to stop paying attention when an author says "X event happened Y years prior to or after Z event." And that's a shame.


----------



## Baron Spikey

From a similar thread over on Warseer (occasionally I just need to laugh at idiocy) the intention was revealed that the Heresy books will be retconned directly- as in on their next printing the contradictions in the books will be resolved, yes that does mean your current copies of things like Descent of Angels won't be 'correct' per say.

An interesting solution if somewhat vexing.


----------



## Phoebus

But here's the thing: Laurie said ONE novel will be corrected in its next printing. If that's the case, I hope it's 'Fallen Angels' - since it's the novel whose dates conflict the most with 'First Heretic', 'Angel Exterminatus', 'Betrayer', etc..

But then I guess we still have Corax and the second "Missing Primarch" not making sense. Such is life...


----------



## VulkansNodosaurus

All DL mentions is that two Primarchs cause the Emperor deep sorrow, and that he refuses to mention them. They are heavily implied to be the two Unknown ones, but given that Angron was discovered just before Corax, it might also be an Unknown and the Red Angel, whom the Emperor still saw as a lost cause.


----------



## Phoebus

Come on, Vulkan... No offense, but that's quite a stretch. It ignores the context of that specific type of conversation having been used more than once before for the Missing Primarchs. With respect, it's one thing to look for explanations, and it's quite another to invent excuses for BL, however grateful and happy we might be for most of their novels.


----------



## forkmaster

Mossy Toes said:


> Official word from on high about the Primarch discovery order. This from Laurie Goulding, one of the editors at Black Library, on his fansite "The First Expedition" (formerly "The Great Crusade"):
> 
> 
> 
> Original post.


I found that list to be very believable with the exception of Lorgar being found so late and perhapd Vulkan so early. Switch those around and then I'm with ya.


----------



## mal310

Phoebus said:


> Because errors in an individual novel are one thing, but this is a specific effort to aid authors and eliminate errors by setting up a firm order of discovery. Thus, when you see that there are apparently obvious errors within said list, that's... kind of worse. I mean, it's one thing for one author and his editor to contradict a novel that they probably were not studying when coming up with their own timeline. It's quite another thing when you say that you created said list after also consulting the various novels of the same series.
> 
> If this list if fine by you, fair enough. Personally, I'm frustrated when less than 30 minutes of searching for the words "century", "hundred", and "years" through my eBooks showed that it's seemingly untenable for Lorgar, Angron, and the Khan to be found after the Lion, or for Corax to have been found before the second missing Primarch.
> 
> Even if Laurie does have some ace up his sleeve regarding these contradictions, the fact remains that for this list to stand we kind of have to stop paying attention when an author says "X event happened Y years prior to or after Z event." And that's a shame.


But why should they sick to a crap discovery timeline. If I have a gripe its that this list should have been done long before now and things like Decent of Angels never written. The pile of cack that is Fallen Angels states Jonson was found in the 147th year or thereabouts. That's not enough time to be involved in the Crusade IMO. The date is too late. One battle with the Luther is hopeless too. It lacks credibility. 

Personally I think the list is great. Its nice to see that they were probably all found by the 100th year of the crusade. I feel adds more to the setting in that they were fighting together for around a hundred years before the Heresy as opposed to about twenty. Good move and it opens up a lot of scope for a future Crusade series. 

I'm also glad to hear that certain novels will be edited slightly to sort out the continuity situation. Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Deliverance Lost are the three that stick out to me.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

forkmaster said:


> I found that list to be very believable with the exception of Lorgar being found so late and perhapd Vulkan so early. Switch those around and then I'm with ya.


Yeah, but the problem with that, as much as I agree that Lorgar seems to need to move up the list, is that Magnus was the visiting primarch with the Emperor when Lorgar was found... reversing Lorgar and Vulcan would conflict with Magnus being there to greet Lorgar. In The First Heretic, it also gives you the ability to figure that Lorgar was found 100 years, give or take 10 years, prior to the Heresy.

Ugh.


----------



## mal310

forkmaster said:


> I found that list to be very believable with the exception of Lorgar being found so late and perhapd Vulkan so early. Switch those around and then I'm with ya.


But the whole point with the new list is that at least up to Angron none were found 'late'. Angron fought for the Emperor for around eighty years before turning traitor. So Lorgar would have been around for a very long time as well.


----------



## Phoebus

mal310 said:


> But why should they sick to a crap discovery timeline. If I have a gripe its that this list should have been done long before now and things like Decent of Angels never written. The pile of cack that is Fallen Angels states Jonson was found in the 147th year or thereabouts. That's not enough time to be involved in the Heresy IMO. The date is too late. One battle with the Luther is hopeless too. It lacks credibility.
> 
> Personally I think the list is great. ...


You're talking about taste, though, mal310. I'm talking about the fact that there was a specific effort to come up with a list that didn't contradict the novels.

You don't like 'Descent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels'? Your prerogative. No problem. At the end of the day, my issue with this list isn't based on what novel I like or how much sense I think it makes that a superhuman genius warlord would or would not be able to acclimate to the Great Crusade inside of five decades. So let's throw those two novels away (even though Laurie said that only two minor things would be changed in ONE novel). The list still contradicts 'Deliverance Lost' and probably 'Betrayer' as well.



> I feel adds more to the setting in that they were fighting together for around a hundred years before the Heresy as opposed to about twenty. Good move and it opens up a lot of scope for a future Crusade series.


mal310, think about what you posted above and how it relates to your complaint about Primarchs being found late.

This entire series, minus 'Descent of Angels', 'Legion', 'The First Heretic', and several of the short stories, has taken place over just a THIRD of the 7-8 year period that was the Horus Heresy. Mathematically speaking, if the Black Library authors were interested in giving the other 4-5 years the same amount of attention, we could easily expect ANOTHER twenty-four novels. It could be another decade before we see the Siege of Terra completed.

So with that context in mind, are you seriously arguing that Lion El'Jonson and maybe one or two other Primarchs (of whom Alpharius would certainly be one) getting "only" five decades of campaigning would hinder a potential series based on the Great Crusade?

I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh - that's certainly not my intent. I just think that's a pretty extreme angle to use in support of a list that _seems_ to have a few contradictions built into it. 



> I'm also glad to hear that certain novels will be edited slightly to sort out the continuity situation. Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Deliverance Lost are the three that stick out to me.


Again - only ONE novel will be edited.


----------



## mal310

Phoebus said:


> You're talking about taste, though, mal310. I'm talking about the fact that there was a specific effort to come up with a list that didn't contradict the novels.


How do you know that there was a specific effort not to contradict past novels? It seems to me that the list was drawn up to specifically prevent contradictions in future novels.



Phoebus said:


> You don't like 'Descent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels'? Your prerogative. No problem. At the end of the day, my issue with this list isn't based on what novel I like or how much sense I think it makes that a superhuman genius warlord would or would not be able to acclimate to the Great Crusade inside of five decades. So let's throw those two novels away (even though Laurie said that only two minor things would be changed in ONE novel). The list still contradicts 'Deliverance Lost' and probably 'Betrayer' as well.


I can't personally see how the list contradicts Betrayer at all? How so? In fact I'd go as far as saying the driving force behind this was probably ADB. He was the driving force behind the Legion sizes and I can see his hand in this as well. I'd put money on it. 




Phoebus said:


> mal310, think about what you posted above and how it relates to your complaint about Primarchs being found late.
> 
> This entire series, minus 'Descent of Angels', 'Legion', 'The First Heretic', and several of the short stories, has taken place over just a THIRD of the 7-8 year period that was the Horus Heresy. Mathematically speaking, if the Black Library authors were interested in giving the other 4-5 years the same amount of attention, we could easily expect ANOTHER twenty-four novels. It could be another decade before we see the Siege of Terra completed.
> 
> So with that context in mind, are you seriously arguing that Lion El'Jonson and maybe one or two other Primarchs (of whom Alpharius would certainly be one) getting "only" five decades of campaigning would hinder a potential series based on the Great Crusade?


The Milky Way contains 400 billion planets (approximately). Now admittedly 110 - 170 years is not much time to get around that lot. But to suggest that 50 years is enough to have any kind of impact on even a very 'small' galaxy is stretching it far too thin IMO. 



Phoebus said:


> I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh - that's certainly not my intent. I just think that's a pretty extreme angle to use in support of a list that _seems_ to have a few contradictions built into it.
> 
> 
> Again - only ONE novel will be edited.


Laurie said the following:

(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)

Hence why you should all be buying the hardbacks - they are canon-flawless.

I don't think that definitively states that only one of the books will be edited. I suspect that it will be more. Time will tell. 

It seems to me, and I don't mean any offence, that you are getting far to hung up on a couple of minor quotes from what I feel are sub par works. The one date of 147 years in Fallen Angels and the other somewhat pointless and throwaway comment in Deliverance Lost (which seems to me just an excuse for Gav to mention the missing Primarchs in some capacity, it added absolutely nothing to the story). If you remove these two quotes from the equation can you find any contradictions in any of the other works with this list?


----------



## Marcoos

There are other contradictions.

Flight of the Eisenstein lists the discovery of Magnus before Mortarion. A Thousand Sons contradicts this.

Based on info in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion should be before Lion, but in The Lion short story, this is contradicted.

In A Thousand Sons, Corax is listed before Magnus. According to the definitive list Corax is after Magnus, and 18th, based on (in my opinion) a flawed reading of Deliverance Lost.


----------



## Phoebus

mal310 said:


> How do you know that there was a specific effort not to contradict past novels? It seems to me that the list was drawn up to specifically prevent contradictions in future novels.


Laurie specifically saying that they drafted the list after going through the novels?



> I can't personally see how the list contradicts Betrayer at all? How so? In fact I'd go as far as saying the driving force behind this was probably ADB. He was the driving force behind the Legion sizes and I can see his hand in this as well. I'd put money on it.


Angron was found 70 years prior to the Heresy ('Betrayer'). Corax was found 'nearly a century' prior to the Heresy.



> The Milky Way contains 400 billion planets (approximately). Now admittedly 110 - 170 years is not much time to get around that lot. But to suggest that 50 years is enough to have any kind of impact on even a very 'small' galaxy is stretching it far too thin IMO.


That's neither here nor there, though. Why? Again, because the Heresy somehow did have that effect, over a *seven* year span. It produced twenty four novels, novellas, and collections of short stories (not counting audio dramas, etc.). Only roughly 40% of the Heresy's timeline has been explored. It took us this long to see all of the eighteen Legions featured in their own, dedicated novels.

So, with that in mind...
1. How is it that the idea that a timeline six or seven times longer would somehow hinder the telling of the Great Crusade not mathematically unsound? What works for the Heresy somehow doesn't work for the Crusade?
2. You're talking about a century working as a timeline because then you get to see them all operating together... No offense, but that is confounding to me. It's as if you're suggesting that such a series should only encompass events that occur after all eighteen (well, twenty) Primarchs have been found. So we get no origins stories? No tales of Fulgrim being Horus' sidekick? That's no fun! 



> Laurie said the following:
> 
> (Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)
> 
> Hence why you should all be buying the hardbacks - they are canon-flawless.
> 
> I don't think that definitively states that only one of the books will be edited. I suspect that it will be more. Time will tell.


He said *one of the novels.* How is that not definite? 



> It seems to me, and I don't mean any offence, that you are getting far to hung up on a couple of minor quotes from what I feel are sub par works. The one date of 147 years in Fallen Angels and the other somewhat pointless and throwaway comment in Deliverance Lost (which seems to me just an excuse for Gav to mention the missing Primarchs in some capacity, it added absolutely nothing to the story). If you remove these two quotes from the equation can you find any contradictions in any of the other works with this list?


No offense taken! Far from it, we're just exchanging ideas. 

But in all honesty, it comes back to what I said earlier. You're offering opinion. I'm not advocating for the books I like. Hell, I was disappointed by 'Descent of Angels'. It doesn't make up for the fact that an editing team decided to read the novels and come up with a list that the authors could use... but their result had contradictions. I mean, if we ignored any and all errors as we find them, everything would end up perfect, right?


----------



## sadLor

mal310 said:


> The Milky Way contains 400 billion planets (approximately). Now admittedly 110 - 170 years is not much time to get around that lot. But to suggest that 50 years is enough to have any kind of impact on even a very 'small' galaxy is stretching it far too thin IMO.


Actually, it's ~400 billion stars. It's estimated there are around 17 billion exoplanets. But yea, that number is still so large that people can't really comprehend it. Trying to understand how much impact they had in 50 years is futile. None of it makes sense. The Imperium would've needed millions of expeditions happening at the same time conquering at ridiculous speeds to cover the galaxy in 200 years. Just got to accept the fluff as it is.


----------



## mal310

Marcoos said:


> There are other contradictions.
> 
> Flight of the Eisenstein lists the discovery of Magnus before Mortarion. A Thousand Sons contradicts this.
> 
> Based on info in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion should be before Lion, but in The Lion short story, this is contradicted.
> 
> In A Thousand Sons, Corax is listed before Magnus. According to the definitive list Corax is after Magnus, and 18th, based on (in my opinion) a flawed reading of Deliverance Lost.





Phoebus said:


> Laurie specifically saying that they drafted the list after going through the novels?


It seems to me that any list they produced would have contradictions in it due to the previous mess in regards to this issue. It is no doubt impossible to produce a list that does not contradict some previous quote in some BL work. Its something that should never have happened in the first place. Sloppy. 



Phoebus said:


> Angron was found 70 years prior to the Heresy ('Betrayer'). Corax was found 'nearly a century' prior to the Heresy.


I stand corrected on Betrayer and that is very annoying seeing as its such a recent book. I can't remember the reference to Corax in the novel myself. I take it that reference about 'nearly a century before the Heresy' is from Betrayer? 



Phoebus said:


> 2. You're talking about a century working as a timeline because then you get to see them all operating together... No offense, but that is confounding to me. It's as if you're suggesting that such a series should only encompass events that occur after all eighteen (well, twenty) Primarchs have been found. So we get no origins stories? No tales of Fulgrim being Horus' sidekick? That's no fun!


I'm perhaps not explaining it well, that's certainly not what I mean. I'd love to see origin stories and stories from throughout the crusade from Horus's discovery to Alpharius and beyond. The reason the increased length of time fighting in the crusade works for me is that personally I think it adds more dramatic weight and tragedy to the Heresy and the setting overall. These brothers who have been fighting together for around a hundred years suddenly ripping apart their empire in a civil war. As opposed to some brothers who had just met or only met a couple of times in 40 - 20 years in some cases. 

Slightly off topic but in regards to the Hardbacks, has anybody noticed any changes in any of the four reprints released so far? For example have the legion sizes been updated in Galaxy in Flames? Just curious.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I'd long since given up on this thread (having started it over 3 years ago) given the sheer amount of contradictions. But considering some people are still slogging away at it and having just flicked through _Betrayal_, I thought i'd point out that it states Mortarion was found after "eight decades" into the Great Crusade and that only "a handful" of Primarchs remained undiscovered by that point.


----------



## Phoebus

mal310 said:


> It seems to me that any list they produced would have contradictions in it due to the previous mess in regards to this issue. It is no doubt impossible to produce a list that does not contradict some previous quote in some BL work.


Respectfully, I disagree. As I've said before, perhaps Laurie has something up his sleeve that completely justified this list, but as it stands any and all of the contradiction shown in what was posted could have easily been caught through thorough reading.

Now, you and I can agree to disagree on how good that list may have been. For instance, you think the order is undermined by the Lion being found fifty years from the Heresy. I don't. No worries. The point, though, is that recognizing this through even a casual reading of the novels was hardly impossible. Any and all of the contradictions I and other readers pointed out were easily caught issues.



> I stand corrected on Betrayer and that is very annoying seeing as its such a recent book. I can't remember the reference to Corax in the novel myself. I take it that reference about 'nearly a century before the Heresy' is from Betrayer?


It's the other way around. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, though, I have to take away what I said about 'Betrayer'. While one Veteran's statement implies that Angron has only been around for seventy years, at least five other statements point to Angron having been found a century before the Heresy. Tellingly, the author's afterword itself mentions him having been active for over a century.

That having been said, I think it's only ironic that CotE discovered another contradiction to make up for the one between Corax and Angron (though, to be honest, I'm not surprised that there might be continuity issues between two distinct groups of authors - especially since 'Betrayal' and 'Betrayer' were being written around the same time and Alan Blight may not have had access to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's scripts... and vice versa). Go figure! :biggrin:



> I'm perhaps not explaining it well, that's certainly not what I mean. I'd love to see origin stories and stories from throughout the crusade from Horus's discovery to Alpharius and beyond. The reason the increased length of time fighting in the crusade works for me is that personally I think it adds more dramatic weight and tragedy to the Heresy and the setting overall. These brothers who have been fighting together for around a hundred years suddenly ripping apart their empire in a civil war. As opposed to some brothers who had just met or only met a couple of times in 40 - 20 years in some cases.


Fair point, but the Great Crusade was never just about the amount of time (whichever you prefer) those guys fought together for. There was always a time when it was just Horus, and then him with Russ, and then with Ferrus, etc. There were always going to be brothers who fought for a hundred years together versus those who had fought for almost two hundred. There were always going to brothers who didn't really fight alongside each other at all, but whose lack of proximity didn't stop them from being allies in the Heresy... and brothers who fought back to back for decades but still took different sides.



> Slightly off topic but in regards to the Hardbacks, has anybody noticed any changes in any of the four reprints released so far? For example have the legion sizes been updated in Galaxy in Flames? Just curious.


Good question!


----------



## mal310

Marcoos said:


> There are other contradictions.
> 
> Flight of the Eisenstein lists the discovery of Magnus before Mortarion. A Thousand Sons contradicts this.
> 
> Based on info in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion should be before Lion, but in The Lion short story, this is contradicted.
> 
> In A Thousand Sons, Corax is listed before Magnus. According to the definitive list Corax is after Magnus, and 18th, based on (in my opinion) a flawed reading of Deliverance Lost.





Phoebus said:


> Respectfully, I disagree. As I've said before, perhaps Laurie has something up his sleeve that completely justified this list, but as it stands any and all of the contradiction shown in what was posted could have easily been caught through thorough reading.


Surely those statements alone from Marcoos (and I'm sure there are others) would make any list without contradictions impossible. If you are able to produce such a list then fair enough! :wink:



Phoebus said:


> It's the other way around.
> 
> In the spirit of full disclosure, though, I have to take away what I said about 'Betrayer'. While one Veteran's statement implies that Angron has only been around for seventy years, at least five other statements point to Angron having been found a century before the Heresy. Tellingly, the author's afterword itself mentions him having been active for over a century.


Betrayer! my faith is restored in ADB (and he of all the authors seems to really try and stick with some kind of continuity when possible, very difficult with some of the muppets that write for BL polluting the setting with rubbish). 

The quote you referenced, Gharte of the World Eater stating that "Seventy years of serving the Butcher and his Nails is long enough." Now this could mean that he himself received his nails seventy years prior, as opposed to Angron taking charge of the Legion at that time. 



Phoebus said:


> That having been said, I think it's only ironic that CotE discovered another contradiction to make up for the one between Corax and Angron (though, to be honest, I'm not surprised that there might be continuity issues between two distinct groups of authors - especially since 'Betrayal' and 'Betrayer' were being written around the same time and Alan Blight may not have had access to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's scripts... and vice versa). Go figure! :biggrin:


I'm sorry Phoebus but again I fail to see where the contradiction is in the new list in regards to the Mortarion reference in Betrayal. I may be missing it, but at number 13 it can be argued that seven more to find is a 'handful'. Granted its probably not the best description but I can't see how its a glaring contradiction with the now official list. 

I do understand your point of view however I feel the new list now provides a solid platform from which the authors can work with. Hopefully past works (and more than one) will be edited so that there are no contradictions to the list. 



Phoebus said:


> Good question!


Thank you, I think I'll start a new thread in the Black Library section regarding any potential changes in the new Hardbacks. There are a few things that they should have addressed, but probably didn't. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'd long since given up on this thread (having started it over 3 years ago) given the sheer amount of contradictions. But considering some people are still slogging away at it and having just flicked through _Betrayal_, I thought i'd point out that it states Mortarion was found after "eight decades" into the Great Crusade and that only "a handful" of Primarchs remained undiscovered by that point.


CotE do you have a view on the now official list thats been revealed? Always interesting to read your thoughts on these matters.


----------



## Marcoos

I don't think it's possible to have made a list without some contradiction. I do think the released list could have been better (in fact I posted one myself on my blog *shameless plug*).


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

mal310 said:


> CotE do you have a view on the now official list thats been revealed? Always interesting to read your thoughts on these matters.


With no desire to be as tactful as _Phoebus_, it's bullshit - _Phoebus_ has had the patience to give numerous examples as to why that is so. But then, with so many contradictions any official list was always going to be bullshit. 

It all boils down to the lack of organisation and forethought which is evident throughout the Heresy series I guess.


----------



## mal310

Marcoos said:


> I don't think it's possible to have made a list without some contradiction. I do think the released list could have been better (in fact I posted one myself on my blog *shameless plug*).


That is some great work there. They are some key differences but your list is not too dissimilar to the official one. Your list certainly has a lot of merit. But as you state there are still contradictions, albeit less than the official one.

http://baddice.co.uk/horus-heresy/




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> With no desire to be as tactful as _Phoebus_, it's bullshit - _Phoebus_ has had the patience to give numerous examples as to why that is so. But then, with so many contradictions any official list was always going to be bullshit.
> 
> It all boils down to the lack of organisation and forethought which is evident throughout the Heresy series I guess.


Yes, sadly I know how you feel. A lot of what has been produced has been utter crap unfortunately. The Outcast Dead almost finished it for me. I was very tempted to just give up on the whole thing after reading that detritus. The glaring contradictions throughout the series and the basic lack of effort in this area is very poor. Those in control seem to be totally incompetent in promoting a decent level of consistency. Its just not good enough. Even saying all that I'm still of the opinion that the list is at least a positive step as it hopefully shows that they are making some effort to cut these mistakes out. 

Black Library could really do with employing a fan of the lore who can just sit down and point out any inconsistencies that arise and advise accordingly. I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough for that but even I've just started looking to see if any edits have been made to the Horus Rising Hardback (the only reprint hardback I have) and already I've come across something which I feel should not be there and contradicts Betrayal to a degree.


----------



## dickie bell

could it be possible that there is regional time differences at play, when a world eater mentions the amount of time based on what i believe is his experience on his home world doesn't mean it's been recorded as the same passage of time elsewhere?


----------



## Angel of Blood

From _The Unremembered Empire_, Guilliman was the 8th Primarch found.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> From _The Unremembered Empire_, Guilliman was the 8th Primarch found.


Which matches Laurie's list.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yup. Looks like they're going for that now.


----------



## Bearer.of.the.Word

Micklez said:


> wernt they discoverend in numerical order except horus who was discovered first????


Lorgar (17th) was with big E when he found Curze (8th). Source Prince of crows.
So i'm afraid not.


----------



## forkmaster

I find it awesome its so far only Dan Abnett taking the opportunity to actually number when the Primarch is found. He did it with Dorn as well.


----------



## Rapperport

I don't know if anyone's read Horus Heresy Book 2: Massacre, from Forgeworld. But here is an excerpt from it, concerning Ferrus Manus.

The Primarch of the Iron Hands, who had
taken unto himself the name of Ferrus
Manus (Lit. 'Iron handed' in the ancient
tongue), was among the first of the Emperor's
lost sons to be discovered and, like Horus
and Russ before him, had risen to become
a warlord in his own right on the world on
which he had been cast.


----------

