# Could Curze have killed M'Shen



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

i just find it weird that regular human (not a marine, not chaos amped) was able to best a primarch in battle?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i just find it weird that regular human (not a marine, not chaos amped) was able to best a primarch in battle?


Pretty sure the point was he let himself die, he knew how he would die, who would kill him, its what he wanted, so he got rid of his guards and let mshen kill him


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well there is always the fact that he could still be alive, and that he didn't die. The world will never know


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Pretty sure the point was he let himself die, he knew how he would die, who would kill him, its what he wanted, so he got rid of his guards and let mshen kill him


how the hell did he know she was coming?




(she must of been highly skilled if the emperor tasked her to kill him) so could curze of beat her?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Emperorguard500 said:


> how the hell did he know she was coming?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Emperor told Curze she was coming.

It seems that M'shen displeased the Emperor while en route to where Curze was. According to a Farseer who tagged along with the Eldar raiders who attacked the palace as soon as the Night Haunter was killed, M'shen earned the wrath of the Emperor for refusing to destroy her favorite weapon which was part of a C'tan.

But not any C'tan. Rather, the very same one the Emperor fought and banished to Mars. So it all makes sense to you now I hope. If you need sources, please contact me via PM.



Lux said:


> Well there is always the fact that he could still be alive, and that he didn't die. The world will never know


I'm of the opinion that because he was killed with a weapon that was part of a C'tan, his essence was in fact sent to another dimension. It makes sense because the C'tan, which are not beings of the warp, somehow were able to devour the _ souls _ / life essences of the Necrons during their bio-transference.

So it's most likely that he is alive. Just not his boody.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Please do enlighten yourself with the bare bones of the matter:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Konrad_Curze


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Emperorguard500 said:


> how the hell did he know she was coming?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


there are codexes, wikis, books you can read. (Prince of crows)
he can see parts of the future.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> there are codexes, wikis, books you can read. (Prince of crows)
> he can see parts of the future.


Night Lord.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm of the opinion that because he was killed with a weapon that was part of a C'tan, his essence was in fact sent to another dimension. It makes sense because the C'tan, which are not beings of the warp, somehow were able to devour the _ souls _ / life essences of the Necrons during their bio-transference.
> 
> So it's most likely that he is alive. Just not his boody.



Similar I also believe that in all likelihood his body was indeed killed that day, however his soul/essence was sucked into/trapped in the Corona Nox (the Crown he wore). I believe that the gem that rested within the corona Nox was indeed a soul stone, which is why the Eldar wanted his crown so badly because it was a lost soul stone. Furthermore Curze stated that whenever he wore the Corona Nox his mind was at rest, that the whispers of the warp could no longer touch him which further convinces me it is a soul stone of some sort.

In all honesty I believe Games workshop has left every primarchs dead or alive status ambiguous, so that in the case they decide to bring any of them back they are easily able to do so.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> stuff.....


I'm arguing against chlorine trifluoride.....but no, it is an adamantine crown with 1 diamond and multiple rubies, from the mouth of Sahaal. However it is possible that it has/had become corrupted, or blessed, to a degree from being worn by the Night Haunter, as Sahaal claims it soothed him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> Similar I also believe that in all likelihood his body was indeed killed that day, however his soul/essence was sucked into/trapped in the Corona Nox (the Crown he wore). I believe that the gem that rested within the corona Nox was indeed a soul stone, which is why the Eldar wanted his crown so badly because it was a lost soul stone. Furthermore Curze stated that whenever he wore the Corona Nox his mind was at rest, that the whispers of the warp could no longer touch him which further convinces me it is a soul stone of some sort.
> 
> In all honesty I believe Games workshop has left every primarchs dead or alive status ambiguous, so that in the case they decide to bring any of them back they are easily able to do so.


Ah a disciple of the Corona Nox school of thought. I can't recall the last time I encountered one.

A sound theory Lux, however, the fact that part of a C'tan was used to _ slay_ the Night Haunter is too big a coincidence to simply write off.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ah a disciple of the Corona Nox school of thought. I can't recall the last time I encountered one.
> 
> A sound theory Lux, however, the fact that part of a C'tan was used to _ slay_ the Night Haunter is too big a coincidence to simply write off.


I agree that the a piece of a C'Tan took part in Curze's demise is by no means meaningless, furthermore I believe the C'Tan and the primarchs share a connection. I have theorized that the Emperor used the Warp in the creation of the primarchs, however I also believe he used C'Tan technology gained from his victory over the Void dragon. 

The weapon used to kill Curze being C'Tan in origin, and the fact that he wore a Eldar Spirit stone (theory) is extremely significant. In part because the C'Tan and Eldar have been at war since the beginning of the war of heaven, which makes the connection between Curze's demise, the weapon used to kill him, and why the eldar wanted his crown so bad all the more mysterious.

To sum it up I believe the primarchs were created through a combination of C'Tan technology, warp infused power, and the Emperor's intellect in using them in tandem with one another. Afterall C'Tan technology seems to mesh very well with primarchs, such an example would be Ferrus Manus and his C'Tan covered arms which in turn granted him innate knowledge of technology.

Who knows how that C'Tan blade affected Curze, or how it interacted with the Corona nox, maybe his soul melded with the C'Tan blade which was in fact a C'Tan shard.


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## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ah a disciple of the Corona Nox school of thought. I can't recall the last time I encountered one.
> 
> A sound theory Lux, however, the fact that part of a C'tan was used to _ slay_ the Night Haunter is too big a coincidence to simply write off.


I am pretty sure I read on ADB's blog that he hs no intention of discussing or expanding on Sahaal or the Corona Nox.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Eleaxus said:


> I am pretty sure I read on ADB's blog that he hs no intention of discussing or expanding on Sahaal or the Corona Nox.


Not until Games Workshop tells him they want to keep Curze's status of being alive or dead ambiguous as possible, then he will expand on it.

However as prior stated, after reading Malus Darkblade's posts I too believe that the C'Tan blade may have absorbed Curze's soul if the corona nox did not. That or I believe the C'Tan blade as Malus stated may have sent Curze into another reality, depending upon which C'tan that blade and or shard comes from.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> the C'tan, which are not beings of the warp, somehow were able to devour the souls / life essences of the Necrons during their bio-transference.


Just a quick correction; The c'tan have never been able to feed on souls. Souls are psychic energy and cannot be manipulated in any way by the c'tan directly. They feed on life essence. 

The process of biotransference was a case of the necrons no longer needing their flesh bodies due to having their minds and memories transferred into the crystalline lattices of necron constructs. Their flesh bodies were left behind for their life energies to be consumed. The necrontyr were essentially rendered extinct and their souls (if any) would simply be lost to the warp.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To ask a question about whether a Primarch could have killed a Callidus Assassin would be like asking if Superman could handle killing Daredevil.When Batman dreams what he'd be with Superman's abilities, he's the Night Haunter. So to answer this question that has been answered in MULTIPLE BOOKS, AUDIO DRAMAS, AND EBOOKS:

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."[1]
The vid-log then shows M'Shen leaping forward, although the kill was never confirmed, as the video feed cuts out right before they fight. It is believed that Night Haunter allowed himself to be killed: he saw himself as a murderous and corrupt villain, the very thing he sought to destroy. Regardless, his final words are considered one of the great enigmas to the Imperium's history.[1]- From the Lexicanum (a pretty easy source to find this out)

Curze had always envisioned his death and it was the Emperor's arrival that tipped him off that the time and events were drawing near. He knew he'd become the monster he'd always fought against and knew that he too should be subject to his own form of justice and allow the assassin to kill him. The fact that she was defeated by Talos one on one should let you know that if she'd faced the Primarch who was unwilling to die, she'd have at best been brutalized and murdered. That's if Curze was in a good mood.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

M'Shen was the very best the Callidus Temple had to offer (_Nemesis_), and she still wouldn't have stood a chance imo, none at all.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

When Talos beat her...was it a 1 on 1 fight? was it competitive or did he merk her?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He quite comprehensively destroyed her. She was admittedly weakened it says from her escape and she lost a hand to an Eldar. However, Talos still destroys her with almost contemptuous ease I would say.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> M'Shen was the very best the Callidus Temple had to offer (_Nemesis_), and she still wouldn't have stood a chance imo, none at all.


This pretty much. If Curze had wanted to kill her there would have been _nothing_ she could have done stop him. I am even willing to go as far as to say the fight would have lasted a handful of seconds, tops.

Primarchs are just that far above anything else in the Imperium. Pretty much anything short of titans, their own siblings, their father, or greater daemons wouldn't stand a chance of taking out a primarch face-to-face if the primarch was taking it seriously. And even titans and daemons have a pretty poor record against primarchs, as things stand...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm in the Corona Nox pile, here. I think it has too much significance for Curze and it to not have some form of bond - Sauronesque, perhaps?

A handful of Primarchs are either missing or injured in suspended animation, so perhaps the '14th black crusade' could see several of the 'missing' return? There may be a way to reform curze if the crown is in the right hands?

Night Lords + Dark Eldar siege to steal the crown? Yes, please!


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Orochi said:


> There may be a way to reform curze if the crown is in the right hands?


Now, I'm no expert on lore. But my understanding of Curze was that he thoroughly accepted his fate and his death. That he had no wish to return. The question is, if the Night Lords would even attempt to bring him back - To defy their Primarchs final decision?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

This is Chaos we're dealing with. And the Night Lords behaviour is pretty unique, even among CSMs.

No, I don't think he will return per se - but I do wonder if the Corona Nox will have any part to play in the future. Unless of course, the canon has hit it's dead end on this subject.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Emperorguard500 said:


> When Talos beat her...was it a 1 on 1 fight? was it competitive or did he merk her?


She was injured and exhausted, but Talos did beat her pretty hard as she wasn't really prepared for fighting the Night Lords, as far as I remember the fight. She was completely defenceless against the vox-shriek that the Night Lords were fond of, and was pretty much out of the fight when Talos spat in her eyes to dissolve them. I think she majorly, majorly underestimated Talos, or overestimated herself.

Either way she lost pretty convincingly.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

They were all tired an a little worn out. No one was a hundred percent. And M'Shen was a little cocky unless you think the title she gave herself "Godkiller or slayer" was done in humility. After killing Curze she was high on success and then he eviscerated her.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Orochi said:


> This is Chaos we're dealing with. And the Night Lords behaviour is pretty unique, even among CSMs.
> 
> No, I don't think he will return per se - but I do wonder if the Corona Nox will have any part to play in the future. Unless of course, the canon has hit it's dead end on this subject.


I think Curze craved peace from the nightmares of his visions, and the whispers of the warp that constantly spoke to him. The corona nox was stated to block out the whispers of the warp, and to grant him peaceful sleep with no visions. Maybe Curze knew upon his death that without the Corona nox soul stone he would be sucked into the warp, and would not be submerged in the hell he dreaded seeing every day of his life. Thus he used the soul stone upon his death to grant himself a peaceful end, by spending eternity within the soul stone and not in the warp.

I too believe the way it was so highly coveted by the Eldar, and near everyone else marked its significance as far more than a right to lead the Nightlords. Perhaps Curze did not know it was an Eldar soulstone of sorts, and that upon his death while wearing it that it would suck his soul into it to prevent his soul from going into the warp. This in turn provides the writers a method to bring Curze back, perhaps he will return by possessing someone through the crown or it provides a scenario in where his soul can extracted from it and inserted into a new body/construct.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that the Corona really is just a crown. It's like a Primarch version of a teddy bear - when Curze was feeling upset, he wore his crown for a bit to make him feel better. I believe it's effects on Night Haunter were purely psychological.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> I think that the Corona really is just a crown. It's like a Primarch version of a teddy bear - when Curze was feeling upset, he wore his crown for a bit to make him feel better. I believe it's effects on Night Haunter were purely psychological.


Doesn't explain why whenever he wore it the horrific visions ceased plaguing him, the whispers of chaos stopped, and why the Eldar wanted it so badly.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i just find it weird that regular human (not a marine, not chaos amped) was able to best a primarch in battle?





Angel of Blood said:


> M'Shen was the very best the Callidus Temple had to offer (_Nemesis_), and she still wouldn't have stood a chance imo, none at all.


Not to contradict the notion that Curze let it happen, which he self-admittedly did, but to call a Callidus Temple Assassin a 'regular human' is a gross misnomer. They are about as enhanced as a non-Astares human can get, then put through both physical and psychological regimens on-par with Astares training.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Lux said:


> Doesn't explain why whenever he wore it the horrific visions ceased plaguing him, the whispers of chaos stopped, and why the Eldar wanted it so badly.


_"Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away from its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt"_ - Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing

I think that if you really want to resist Chaos, you can.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> _"Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away from its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt"_ - Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing
> 
> I think that if you really want to resist Chaos, you can.


I think your view is just as valid as the one I am currently perceiving through, it all just depends on how we want to view this specific piece of lore so that it may better fit in with our overall view of the mythos as a whole.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> _"Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away from its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt"_ - Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing
> 
> I think that if you really want to resist Chaos, you can.


Except for those instances when merely gazing on a daemon turns a human into a gibbering mass of insane mutation or puddle of Chaos-infused goo :victory:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Except for those instances when merely gazing on a daemon turns a human into a gibbering mass of insane mutation or puddle of Chaos-infused goo :victory:


The angry marines have a name for those type of people.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The angry marines have a name for those type of people.


What do they call those type of people?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> _"Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away from its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt"_ - Ravenor, The Spheres of Longing
> 
> I think that if you really want to resist Chaos, you can.


You sure can.

The most suspicious thing about the Corona though, isn't that it may or may not have helped sooth his visions. It's that it has a soul. When exposed to it a psyker immediately senses its presence and confuses it for the only Night Lord she's ever met. That can't be a coincidence. The Corona is sentient enough to pass for a Night Lord, show me a diamond that can do that.


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