# Overall, is GW's audience becoming more or less grimdark?



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

As some of you may know, I am a 40k optimist. I believe a happy ending is possible, I want the Emperor to be revived, and then I want the Imperium, Tau, & Eldar to form an alliance and fight the "evil" forces.

There is some hope that the new 40k mmo will be like this at least somewhat. But I think one key determaning factor is GW's audience: Is it becomming MORE or LESS approving of the usual grimdark nature?

UPDATE: PLEASE don't comment on whether or not my ideal situation is realistic or whether the Imperium is evil or not. Just answer the stupid question....


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The Imperium IS the evil in 40K.

Look at all the races in a unbiased way.


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

The chaos gods will devour the heart of the emporer and conquer the universe!
more dark for sure... unless you play tau.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Love grimdark, absolutely love it. From GW through to films like bladerunner (dir. cut obviously) brazil, apocalypse now and suchlike.

I can't stand bloody scrubs!!! :angry:

Grimdark's never had a massive audience though, so if GW products like the mmo are going to hit it off big, they'll have to lighten the mood, at least a little i guess.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Needs to be more grimdark. I'm thinking something like the 50k fanfic hosted here somewhere.


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## Hemophile44 (Jun 12, 2010)

I agree with king gary, light has always been more attractive to others imho, but frankly i would love to see a wonderful environment that is grim dark, just the undercities full of rain, thunder, scum, etc. now for outside the city, i cant stand happy green sunlight. i need plains of wheat, with a red skybox. thats my wh40k environment summed up. but knowing all promising video games, they will manage to screw it up somehow, be it the environment or the mechanics.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

I actually WANT it to be less grimdark.

And you aren't answering the question.


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## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

Grimdark is awesome. It should be far more grimdark than it is now. Oh and get rid of the bloody Tau, this whole 'greater good' happy, young race of idiots is getting really annoying.


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## vulcan539 (May 17, 2010)

wombat_tree said:


> Grimdark is awesome. It should be far more grimdark than it is now. Oh and get rid of the bloody Tau, this whole 'greater good' happy, young race of idiots is getting really annoying.


I agree with all but the tau.
I dont mind there out look on things


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I think the audience is becoming more approving of the grimdark nature of things but that is never what people focus on when talking about 40k imo. People talk about their favorite stories, favorite chapter, characters, etc. No offense but the only person I've ever seen in these forums bring up the abysmal nature of the 40k universe is you platypus. I think the rest of us just kind of accept it as a fact and move on, not caring one way or the other. Why not talk about your favorite characters or something because I would agree that there ARE shining beacons of light in this grimdark place. Logan the chapter master of the space wolves comes to mind most often. On a smaller scale I would be more accepting of opinions that people enjoy the brighter side of the spectrum.

I for one see things as they ARE and not how they WILL BE. As is, things ARE grim and until GW decides to change it otherwise, I don't see the point of speculating.


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## Chaos_smurf (Oct 14, 2009)

even if the emperor comes back it will make the imperium less doomed but still trillions of tyranid big space in..space where demons live on hundreds of planets trillions of orks emperor cant stop it all after 5 days hed probably be back in the chair saying:well i tried
but seriously if warhammer had a planned happy ending id of quit


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Sort of. 

Most of the players I know have the opinion that their army is going to slaughter everything else. Not sure what that qualifies as. A lot of others dont really care for much fluff, its little army men and army women and big bugs playing war with dice and that's all it is for them. 

My personal view on my 40k chapter is the same as it is in irl: Aim for the stars but be prepared to land face first in a cow pie at the bottom of a ravine.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The universe is getting more grimdark but I think i's setting it self up for a brighter outlook at one point or another. 

I could see in about 2 editions the Tau expanded to the point it becomes a considerable threat to the imperium, which has been weakened and reduced by the constant nid and chaos attacks. The etherals are revealed as being the evil beings they are, and the necrons still ravage the galaxy every now and again.

The Emperor Awakens but finds his empire is being controled by the High Lords of Terra who, using the imperium's propagada convince the imperium at large that he is a pretender. The flee Terra and blockade it with their fleet, leaving the emperor on Terra with nothing but the Castodes. Choas advancing, the imperium folding in on itself and the only "good guys" in the whole universe are evil, I'd call that Grimdark :biggrin:


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

That's an interesting scenario. If the Emperor is up then theoretically we find out whose side Cypher is really on and the Lion will reawaken and unite the Dark Angels who are nearly a legion even still. Greatest tactician ever known to man with a legion of astartes is pissed because some numbskull lord decided to blockade his daddy on Terra. THAT is interesting. The imperium would really collapse on itself then, 700 Deathwing Terminators tearing everything up and ripping through anything the custodes hadn't killed already... I'd pay to see the Lion make mincemeat of Calgar though.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

40k these days IS less grimdark, now its just "WTF thats just silly", 40k has gone from being a dark age of man into a badly written comedy with dodgy characters, empty races devoid of any life and boring fluff usually involving someone losing a battle and getting saved by smurfs.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

In some sort of cataclysmal event I actually agree with Stella. The Rouge Trader ear wasn't that grim dark, the 2nd Ed was massively grim dark. Now it's kind of Grim Dark Lite. All the flavour of regular Grim Dark without any of the substance. 

IT was a fairly balanced fluff in 2nd ed with people winning and losing. But now it's all <insert force> destroys all in it's path and everyone is more uber than can possibly be imagined. Hence Nids are going to devour the galaxy, Necrons are unstoppable and going to murder the galaxy, Orks are going to overrun the Galaxy, Space Wolfs can destroy any invader and be home in time for tea and tiffin, etc etc. 

Aramoro


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

40K has not changed for me and really should never change for anyone, 40k is mine, the rules and armys may change for the sake of the game play and marketing of models, but in essence 40k is still Rogue Trader for me, it just has more bells and whistles on.

I dont want a happy ending, 40k is not about "end" there is no end, the story does not evolve, its a constant stalemate its a stagnant un-win able war, none of the armies involved currently are "good guys" and to give any of them the good or evil tag really shows a lack of understanding of the nature of the game, all of the armies are involved in the conflict for a reason and depending on your point of view, decides if the reason is right or wrong or with good or evil intentions. 

The thing that i think has changed the most is not so much less or more dark,but the fluff has become just another level of marketing, huge portions of the rule book and codex are given to the fluff which is fine if your a new player, but i have to admit i have read and reread the back ground for so many armies over the years im begining to wish they would do two versions of the codex, an all singing and dancing version for the "new player" and a "veterans" codex with rules and army list.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> In some sort of cataclysmal event I actually agree with Stella. The Rouge Trader ear wasn't that grim dark, the 2nd Ed was massively grim dark. Now it's kind of Grim Dark Lite. All the flavour of regular Grim Dark without any of the substance.
> 
> IT was a fairly balanced fluff in 2nd ed with people winning and losing. But now it's all <insert force> destroys all in it's path and everyone is more uber than can possibly be imagined. Hence Nids are going to devour the galaxy, Necrons are unstoppable and going to murder the galaxy, Orks are going to overrun the Galaxy, Space Wolfs can destroy any invader and be home in time for tea and tiffin, etc etc.
> 
> Aramoro


Come on now, it's not quite Magic The Gathering. Yet. It's more propaganda written into the codecies that gets the pre battle smack-talk going, which is never a bad thing. Though i'd have to agree with your first statement, it's not as dark as it used to be...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Its the retconning which becomes ridiculous. Chaos are an timeless force of evil existing the warp, the ultimate bad guys.... Well apart from Necrons, they're the real bad guys who are even older and even more powerful than Chaos and the greatest threat to humanity....Excepting obviously Tyrinids.... etc etc etc.

Even small things, Dante is the oldest living Space Marine....well except that guy...oh and that guy of course....oh yeah and him over there. Apart from them he's the oldest living Space Marine....oh yeah except Lysander....

Aramoro


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Fair point, that is annoying. Is the number of 40k races anywhere near Fantasy levels yet? Once that happens, it can all start to settle down i guess. The (big) one that pops to mind as missing is Ogre kingdoms, there may be more though


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

King Gary said:


> it's not as dark as it used to be...


What is that founded on? I mean, the Golden Throne failing is pretty dark.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It used to be more Dark not Doom laden, kinda different things. Right now the fluff is very Doom laden but not very Dark. 

People call Space Marines, Space Nazi's for a reason, and that reason was the background in 2nd ed, in 5th Space Marines are lot more reasonable, pretty much better humans then some sort of inhuman killing machines with scant regard for human life. 

Aramoro


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> What is that founded on? I mean, the Golden Throne failing is pretty dark.


Yeah, what Amaroro said.

Tbh, that's news to me about the golden throne, though not surprising (i've been away from the hobby for a good 10 years). The fundamentalist attitude of the imperium can't be too easy a concept to swallow for new fans of the game, it's got to be a subtle move away from that. Having been away from the hobby and now coming back, the whole feel of the thing just seems just a little bit less dark.


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## FatBoyFat (Feb 23, 2009)

Let me just quote something that is in the start of every single one of the 40k novels, last paragraph 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable"

If you ask me.. its not quite dark enough, In the Grim Darkness of the 41st millineum there is no peace, there is only war! and that is the way we like it baby! With you keep rabbiting on about your idea, the hobby would really suck afterwards.. 
"So what army are you collecting now?" 
"none, its all peaceful, so I'm collecting the space marine flower arranging group"


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

FatBoyFat said:


> " I'm collecting the space marine flower arranging group"


yes, also known as the rainbow warriors, i mean what sort of name is that, rainbow warriors. Forces of evil "oh no, they have sent the Astartes run, oh, wait they are called rainbow warriors. stay " cue the multicoloured space marines skipping in to the tune of My little Pony. 
but back on topic, i think it is grimdark enough as it is, if it were any more so, it would cause an influx of emos, goths and others and mass exodus of people who simply enjoy it as a hobby,and not a religion.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> What is that founded on? I mean, the Golden Throne failing is pretty dark.


I dunno, a big golden chair is barely that dark its quite bright actually, even if it fails imagine the resale value


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I find the lack of new campaings or aftermaths of event like the current Armegeddon, or better yet the 13th BC, is fukin shity. Why should I care about these events when nothing comes out of them? Why should I care about BL books if there is no Progressive storyline. Why Introduce a new race when theres no room for it in the current plots. What do you mean the new race had a battle with Eldard? hes dead? Fukin Lame GW. Comic Books even get with the times, change is inevitable, adapt or fade out of buissness. 

I think the mood can remain dark, but not so dark as everything I do does not matter. That leaves no motivation or intrest.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

I am not asking about your personal opinions.

What I am asking about is what the other fans of 40k seem to be like. When you talk to new players, are they more or less grimdark?


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> I am not asking about your personal opinions.
> 
> What I am asking about is what the other fans of 40k seem to be like. When you talk to new players, are they more or less grimdark?


Well the guys I know either look at it as a game with a good setting and background (majority), or see it as a long, hard fight, but the Emperor shall prevail (minority; and yeah, they play Imperials, surprisingly). As for me, I'm pretty glad that Big E is dying, I just wish my lads could get there and give him the final push he needs, so its not at all grimdark for the Chaos Marines methinks. Hell, its our universe, drowned in chaos, deceit and carnage! :laugh:

But to keep up with the other train of thought we've got here, I think the whole 40K world is getting less and less grimdark, because wherever the SPESS MUHREENS show up they win ('cept for Kaurava, but the IG still pretty much cleaned up the place, so its barely different), and not because they have anything to call a brain, since we all know that Space Marines are incompatible with delicate and intricate plans, they just run over your ass like some intergalactic train with ten deffrollas made of TH/SS Assault Terminators. And us, heretics and xenos, feel like we're the villains of a Looney Tunes cartoon: try hard and fail hard. Come on, think of it, isn't Abaddon exactly like the Coyote? Isn't Ahriman like Sylvester? Its just mean.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Platypus5 said:


> I am not asking about your personal opinions.
> 
> What I am asking about is what the other fans of 40k seem to be like. When you talk to *new* players, are they more or less grimdark?


when I talk to *new* players they usually have no opinion on the setting of 40k, as it would involve reading and speaking in a language people can understand and translate, two tasks too laborious for todays generation of 40k players (and todays generation in general, afterall reading isn't cool, and why talk english when you can text gibberish) that I have had the misfortune to come across, so they have no opinion or at least don't really have a valid one to make.


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

There's an interesting point everyone is missing. Grimdark setting means is Grimdark for everyone, no only the Imperium. So, it doesn't mean the imperuim dies a painful and slow death and all other races rejoy. It means NO happy ending for EVERYONE. Of course this can involve various degrees of failure, be it an endless war no side winning at all or a much complex scenario in which for example:

1. The Emperor dies, the Imperium too
2. Tau loose everything, and become a fledling race
3. Eldar just vanish from the universe, one sin at a time.
4. Necrons, well, choose your "happy ending" for them, say... they rust themselves to death
5. Orks, same as the imperium but with more violence
6. Chaos, the eye of terror vanishes, leaving them trapped in the Warp. This could be the most malicious ending for them.
7. Tyranids, eat themselves to death

I think the game is as grimdark as it can be. And I think everyone involved in the game wants their side to win, which isn't Grimdark at all (from their point of view). So there's some kind of contradiction in the grimdarkness of the game. But I think it's this dichotomy what makes this game such a great hobby.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> But to keep up with the other train of thought we've got here, I think the whole 40K world is getting less and less grimdark, because wherever the SPESS MUHREENS show up they win ('cept for Kaurava, but the IG still pretty much cleaned up the place, so its barely different), and not because they have anything to call a brain, since we all know that Space Marines are incompatible with delicate and intricate plans, they just run over your ass like some intergalactic train with ten deffrollas made of TH/SS Assault Terminators. And us, heretics and xenos, feel like we're the villains of a Looney Tunes cartoon: try hard and fail hard. Come on, think of it, isn't Abaddon exactly like the Coyote? Isn't Ahriman like Sylvester? Its just mean.


I don't think that the Xeno's fail like Looney Tunes villains but Choas for sure. 

In the current fluff there are instances of the "SPESS MUHREENS" losing, they even mention a few in the current codex like the Damnos Incident, and the World Engine. Also you have the shattering of the Crimson Fits and you have the Purging of Contqual, where the Iron Hands just killed 1 in ever 3 people in the sector just to prove a point. PlanetStrike also contains a number of senerios where the Imperium gets smashed.

Reading this thread it gives me the feeling that if GW released codex's for Aliens and Xeno that had their battle stories of them, Crushing the Imperium at every opportunity, and showing the "SPESS MUHREENS" getting spanked in every fight then people would be calling 40k "More Grim Dark."


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> In the current fluff there are instances of the "SPESS MUHREENS" losing, they even mention a few in the current codex like the Damnos Incident, and the World Engine. Also you have the shattering of the Crimson Fits and you have the Purging of Contqual, where the Iron Hands just killed 1 in ever 3 people in the sector just to prove a point. PlanetStrike also contains a number of senerios where the Imperium gets smashed.


See? You've _read_ about it in _books_, because you were interested in the _lore_. However, to the ignorant the Imperium, though sorrounded by foes on all sides, will prevail, thanks to the might of the Space Marines, because thats what keeps being used to death everywhere thats even marginally related to 40K. And thats making 40K less grimdark.

Not that I think its going to happen, but I'd be more than satisfied and the 40K world would be much more grimdark if the Emperor died and ascended, but in the meantime the majority of the Imperium fell apart and its systems were either conquered by hostile forces, or the local Space Marine chapter took over and rule like kings. And thus the Second Great Crusade was born, with the Imperium crippled but defiant and ascendent; Chaos forces spill out of the Eye of Terror but get stuck in with the rampaging Orks; Dark Eldar pirate activities increase rapidly, only to provoke the wrath of their Craftworld brethren; the Tau and the Necron leap at the suddenly easy prey, but become prey themselves when the Tyranid Hive Fleets fall upon them like the hammer of an angry god. The 42nd Millenium sees a war-torn galaxy drowning in its own blood.


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## Ascendant (Dec 11, 2008)

More Grimdark, it seems. Isn't this the first rulebook where in the main fluff they've said that the Golden Throne is breaking for good as the forty-first millennium draws to a close?

In the mmo I bet it will be less grimdark though, and have a "good guys" and "bad guys" alliance.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Ascendant said:


> In the mmo I bet it will be less grimdark though, and have a "good guys" and "bad guys" alliance.


I really hope that is the case.  I know none of you do, but I like good vs evil. Why am I into 40k then? I also like SOME grimness, sci-fi, big armies, and factions.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> See? You've _read_ about it in _books_, because you were interested in the _lore_. However, to the ignorant the Imperium, though sorrounded by foes on all sides, will prevail, thanks to the might of the Space Marines, because thats what keeps being used to death everywhere thats even marginally related to 40K. And thats making 40K less grimdark.


The information comes from the codex's though, not any of the novels by BL. I just glanced into my SM codex to get those stores. If anything is making it less Grimdark it's not GW, but the reaction of players to fluff that is being presented in all pro imperium codex's, as thats what has generally been coming out. If we had seen nothing but Choas, Dark Elder, Orks, Nids, and Necrons in codex releases humanity wouldn't be looking to good I'd wager.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

I've worked it out.

Can't have a grimdark tabletop wargame whilst there's an actual war on terror going on. Under the current pollitical situation we all need the good guys to be a little more 'good'. Can't have the SMs running around, organized like a terrorist cell group, split into small 'chapters' so that if one falls it doesn't take the rest with them, they're the good guys, right? Don't forget GW was founded in the UK in the early to mid 80's when we had Maggie Thatcher as PM which, by all accounts was incredibly grimdark (think dubyah backed up with a cold calculating intelligence and you're getting close).


Disclaimer: Under *no* account should this post be taken as serious


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