# More evidence of Chaos's return to dominance



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I was reading through my Necron Codex, specifically page 85 where it talks about cryptek science, and saw this statement:

"yet, as confounding as these techniques might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy against whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp, such technological conjurings are merely another flavor of existence to be corrupted and devoured."

So, because they are daemons, they can navigate energy labyrinths and find things in pocket dimensions with ease because, well, um. For chaos! Right?

Thought I would share this tidbit.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Yet elsewhere in the Necron Codex it says they can use technology against any threat. Hmm, it;s as if this was written by Matt W....., oh yeah. It was. Moving on.

Seriously though, it does seem like Chaos is rising. Personally I think these tidbits are GW laying the framework for 6th where it will be Chaos in the ascendancy posing the main threat to the Imperium.

However, as the Necrons have no soul and, Overlords aside, very little in what you can call emotion, would Chaos actually pose a threat to the Necrons?


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't think Necrons can be turned to chaos, so I would have to place a firm no on that one. Suck it chaos.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> I don't think Necrons can be turned to chaos, so I would have to place a firm no on that one. Suck it chaos.


Just because the Necrons cannot fall to Chaos, doesn't mean it isn't a threat to them.

Chaos (à la the warp) is what is enabled (and is still enabling) the _"lesser races"_ to resist the Necrons, there is still the age-old debate concerning whether or not the C'tan/shards are vulnerable to warp-energy, Necrons can still be destoryed by hordes of marauding daemons just like anyone else. As per the quote you posted, Chaos may well pose the most significant threat to the ancients (just like most other civilisations).


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

While chaos is indeed an enemy of the necrons in the sense that in a battle they can still kill and destroy them, chaos' greatest weapon has always been able to corrupt from within. They take an honest man/marine/whatever and dig at insecurities, doubts, etc. until he is bowing a knee to whichever chaos god. Seeing as necrons don't have emotions for the chaos gods to twist and pick at, the necrons can't be turned.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, and even though it states Daemons can figure these things out, the Tesseract Labyrinths are exactly what the Inquisition uses to contain daemons for interrogation. So I guess at some point all those imprisoned daemons will get out and screw a lot of stuff up since they're already on Titan.

I am sad that Necrons are utterly powerless against the warp now, though. I mean, gauss works fine I guess, same as bolters and chainswords. Still sad. There's also no record in the codex of Necrons fighting Daemons at all. Or hell, I don't even think they fight Chaos in any form. You'd think that would happen since, you know, Necrons use the Webway now and it's supposedly all broken up and whatnot.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Abomination said:


> Yet elsewhere in the Necron Codex it says they can use technology against any threat. Hmm, it;s as if this was written by Matt W....., oh yeah. It was. Moving on.


Well Matt Ward, and a few other people (reportedly), so we may be looking at fluff that's a bit of a mess not because Ward is bad at writing fluff but because it changed hands a lot. Just a thought.

All things considered I wouldn't be surprised if they're making Chaos more of a threat again. It has been a long standing complaint that they seem too weak, and I'm sure GW wants the Archenemy to look better than "generic spikey marines".


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Necrons are not powerless against the Warp. 

Gloom prisons are one example, and the pylons of Cadia were never once retconned and are still believed to be necron tech. 

We also have the anti warp device used in the Word Bearers book which stopped the daemons in their tracks. Haven't read them so can't give you a name. 

And while the daemons can spill over into other dimensions just like the materium, remember that ultimately they lose power and fade back to the warp. The necrons remain dominant everywhere else.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

to add to serpion:
Its called the nexus arrangement, could remove anything warp related (the word bearers ships was crewed and held together by demons so when it was activated the ships fell apart, also every psyker that was using the warp at the time of activation died, possessed astartes fell apart due to the fact the demons were no longer keeping their bodies together) for serveral 100 (maybe thousand) light years in every direction, it also caused many weaker willed astartes/mortals to kill themselves and succumb to a sense of loss/hollowness and either kill themselves or just wait to be killed.
The nexus also sent out a signal, so the Necrons always knew where it was and could call it back.

Tbh since the Gods need the immaterium but the materium doesn't need the gods or the warp, it could be said the Necrons have the upper hand.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> the materium doesn't need the gods or the warp, it could be said the Necrons have the upper hand.


It depends what you mean, the Imperium and other _"lesser races"_ (Eldar included) _need_ the warp to function. Without the warp the Imperium wouldn't have been (and wouldn't be) possible.

In the old lore the primary advantage the Necrons had against the warp was that the C'tan planned to seal it off - which was claimed to be an achievable goal. Yet with the new lore and the shattering of the C'tan, it doesn't seem like such a thing would now be impossible. 

So whilst the Necrons are not exactly powerless against the warp (Cadian pylons, nexus arrangement, tesseract labyrinths et cetera) they have no ultimate end-game strategy like they had in the old lore and now seem to only be able to temporarily delay or insignificantly challenge the daemonic.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the info cote.

In the book tales of heresy, the short story the voice, a "blank" (A sister of silence) could sell her soul to deliver a message, this implies that though they are a void, they still do have something to sell and therefore corrupt, this might mean, that the necrons like the sisters are corruptible?


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Necrons are almost the perfect counter-balance for many of the threats facing the universe; they are emotionless and purely mechanical, therefore incorruptible against Chaos, they have no flesh and therefore provide no biomass, against Tyranids, and they have the most advanced technology in the universe (and then some) and are mostly made up of utterly loyal servants, lead by only a few individual personalities.

Oddly enough, the greatest weapon the Necrons can unleash is one not of their own making, and one which would ultimately lead them back into slavery; the C'tan Shards. If they could gather together the shards of each C'tan and amalgamate them back into the full Star Gods, these beings would be powerful enough to destroy anything; they are undying, they can come back infinitely as energy cannot be created or destroyed, and they wield the powers of the universe. They could bend the laws of reality to suck the Tyranid fleets into black holes, they could make the planets in the Eye of Terror change their orbit and crash into each other; they could do anything, really. Unfortunately for the Necrons, this "anything" includes enslaving them again... makes you wonder how they beat the C'tan in the first place. *coughMatWardcoughcough*


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i read all of that in the doctors voice  makes it hard to take you seriously.
But yes, i wouldve prefered if the C'tan stayed whole, i kind of like the idea of 3 seperate threats converging on terra, then when they land all the remaining chapters have a showdown with chaos necrons, nids and chaos, would be better than the heresy.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

He he, glad my avatar is experiencing success. :laugh:

And yes, I would most certainly have preferred the C'tan remaining whole. Although to be honest there are probably a handful which are still whole, but just hiding; the Deceiver because he's damn sneaky, and the Nightbringer because he's just too darn hard.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

There are numerous hints in the necron dex which suggest that the C'Tan put in numerous counter measures and pre programmed contingency plans in the necrons. Yet for all this they were "destroyed" by their pre-programmed slaves

Maybe their more Tzeentchian than first apparent, maybe they have a plan, and maybe in the fullness of time this will be revealed. 

Its just too complicated for Wardy to comprehend at the moment...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Thanks for the info cote.
> 
> In the book tales of heresy, the short story the voice, a "blank" (A sister of silence) could sell her soul to deliver a message, this implies that though they are a void, they still do have something to sell and therefore corrupt, this might mean, that the necrons like the sisters are corruptible?


No, blanks still have souls like any other human. Necrons do not. 

The reasoning for blanks to appear soulless is due to their physiology. Their brain structure is attuned to the warp much like a psyker, however rather than channel this energy they negate it. But like psykers, they can be "burned out" by overuse of their abilities. There are two examples of blanks being burned out by massive exposure to warp energy that even they could not block. Following this in both cases they were as normal as any human, their blank aura completely gone.



Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Necrons are almost the perfect counter-balance for many of the threats facing the universe; they are emotionless and purely mechanical, therefore incorruptible against Chaos, they have no flesh and therefore provide no biomass, against Tyranids, and they have the most advanced technology in the universe (and then some) and are mostly made up of utterly loyal servants, lead by only a few individual personalities.
> 
> Oddly enough, the greatest weapon the Necrons can unleash is one not of their own making, and one which would ultimately lead them back into slavery; the C'tan Shards. If they could gather together the shards of each C'tan and amalgamate them back into the full Star Gods, these beings would be powerful enough to destroy anything; they are undying, they can come back infinitely as energy cannot be created or destroyed, and they wield the powers of the universe. They could bend the laws of reality to suck the Tyranid fleets into black holes, they could make the planets in the Eye of Terror change their orbit and crash into each other; they could do anything, really. Unfortunately for the Necrons, this "anything" includes enslaving them again... makes you wonder how they beat the C'tan in the first place. *coughMatWardcoughcough*


Unfortunately aside from the enslavement factor, the C'tan shards no longer have the full scope of their memories or knowledge at their disposal. Remember that every c'tan shard is still intricately bound to the fabric of the universe and as such wields near limitless power. However, due to their fractured minds their behaviour is more unpredictable than it was, and they are likely to use ineffective methods on occasion simply because they cannot fathom that they aren't as invincible as they used to be. 



Farseer Darvaleth said:


> And yes, I would most certainly have preferred the C'tan remaining whole. Although to be honest there are probably a handful which are still whole, but just hiding; the Deceiver because he's damn sneaky, and the Nightbringer because he's just too darn hard.


Wishful thinking.  No c'tan escaped the sharding process but the Flayer, and he was completely destroyed instead. 

White Dwarf gives a list of the c'tan that were rent into shards. All four known c'tan were listed as well as one or two extras. Naturally however, some of these shards managed to evade capture. :wink:


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> No, blanks still have souls like any other human. Necrons do not.
> 
> The reasoning for blanks to appear soulless is due to their physiology. Their brain structure is attuned to the warp much like a psyker, however rather than channel this energy they negate it. But like psykers, they can be "burned out" by overuse of their abilities. There are two examples of blanks being burned out by massive exposure to warp energy that even they could not block. Following this in both cases they were as normal as any human, their blank aura completely gone.
> :wink:


The fact that both times occur in the same book (or series) might throw doubt onto it, as well as the fact that it's left completely unexplained.

It could be for example that they're only affected by the physical, real world manifestation of the warp, which means that the Chaos source has to first influence the real world, then the human brain in order to do something instead of targeting the blank directly in the warp. 

Which sounds a little convoluted now that I write it.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I have to say that I would love to get the new chaos dex if it would allow me to run a turned gaurdsman list. I would love to see it be like the old witchhunters dex where you could do pick a mix. I would love to run an army with a small amount of CSMs and a huge fodder platoon to get eaten up by the enemy guns. This happens so often in the fluff that it begs to be written into the rules.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Just my two cents.....

C'tan and the warp gods are the mirror opposites of each other. The C'tan rule the material universe, while the chaos gods currently rule the warp. The C'tan have the ability to seal off the warp but lack the numbers to do so. The Warp gods have the ability to intrude the material realm, but only temporary. 

However, the chaos gods have another disadvantage in that they were not always evil, and are dynamic based on the prevailing currents. Who knows where all of the positive energy is going into the warp, and how it is forming? The necrons don't really have this problem, but the C'tan do have to worry about the younger races closing the technology gap. Before the Age of Strife, the invention of STC's showed that humanity (at least) had grown immensely tech wise. 

The ultimate enemy of the warhammer universe is the tyranids - they not only wipe out life that the warp needs, they also have the sheer numbers to overwhelm the limited numbers of the necrons.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

@Barnstar: to quote a great show:

Angila: What on earth is that?

Peter Griffin: It's a worker robot I built. I know what you're thinking Angila, but don't worry, it's been programed 1) without Human Emotions and 2) never to hurt people.

(Robot pins Peter against the wall and hits him with a stapler)

Peter Griffin: Oh God Angila, it's hurting people!

Worker Robot: "Angry! Angry!"

Peter Griffin: Oh no it's got Human emotions! Run Angila, run!


And that's how I like to think the C'tan got their asses handed to them. Family Guy really does have all the answers....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> C'tan and the warp gods are the mirror opposites of each other. The C'tan rule the material universe, while the chaos gods currently rule the warp. The C'tan have the ability to seal off the warp but lack the numbers to do so. The Warp gods have the ability to intrude the material realm, but only temporary.


The C'tan were betrayed and their beings shattered, the majority of the shards were subsequently imprisoned by the Necrons. They hardly _"rule the material universe"._

And it's probably more accurate to say they _*did*_ have the ability to seal off the warp, since the shattering its seem that they no longer do.



mbatemplar said:


> Who knows where all of the positive energy is going into the warp, and how it is forming?


Sorry, but what is positive energy - I assume you are referring to things such as hope, love, joy, happiness etc? If so, the Chaos Gods absorb and feed off those emotions just like the others - each Chaos Gods represents an aspect of man: rage, lust, corruption, and inconstancy. Most (if not all) of the _"positive"_ emotions you are referring to would quite easily fit into one of those categories.

But to label such energy/emotions as _"positive"_ is strange. 



mbatemplar said:


> The necrons don't really have this problem, but the C'tan do have to worry about the younger races closing the technology gap. Before the Age of Strife, the invention of STC's showed that humanity (at least) had grown immensely tech wise.


I don't think they have to worry about that, their technology far exceeds anything humanity has conjured up.



mbatemplar said:


> The ultimate enemy of the warhammer universe is the tyranids - they not only wipe out life that the warp needs, they also have the sheer numbers to overwhelm the limited numbers of the necrons.


I, and (according to consistent rumours) GW disagree with you. The ultimate enemy of the 40k universe is, and always has been, Chaos.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The C'tan were betrayed and their beings shattered, the majority of the shards were subsequently imprisoned by the Necrons. They hardly _"rule the material universe"._


_

When thinking of the necrons/C'tan - one needs to think of the entire time span. The necrons/C'tan won the war in heaven, and had no other equals. They ruled the universe. With their recent "re-interpretation" shall we say, the splitting of the C'tan definitely limits their power. But they haven't lost any of their technology, and the only reason why they went to sleep was because they had fought a three way war which depleted their numbers. They've had eons to rebuild those numbers - but what is not clear is whether or not they are still a united race.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:



I don't think they have to worry about that, their technology far exceeds anything humanity has conjured up.

Click to expand...

During the age of strife or in the millions of years since the necron slept, we have no clear idea of what humanity or the other younger races had developed in terms of technology. It seems puzzling to assume no one would surpass the necron tech level. Indeed, diffusion theory (where technology flows from areas of high levels to areas of low levels) would suggest that this would almost be a certainty.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:



Sorry, but what is positive energy - I assume you are referring to things such as hope, love, joy, happiness etc? If so, the Chaos Gods absorb and feed off those emotions just like the others - each Chaos Gods represents an aspect of man: rage, lust, corruption, and inconstancy. Most (if not all) of the "positive" emotions you are referring to would quite easily fit into one of those categories.

Click to expand...

Unless things have changed, I think the original backstory still stands - this being that the warp was neutral and only the negative emotions associated with the rise of humanity really started tipping the scale towards the warp gods being the way that they are. 

Again, It is not clear what exactly is happening in the warp right now when it comes to the positive emotions such as love, hope, and happiness. Traditionally it was assumed that they were part of the 4 chaos gods, and were part of the balancing act of their composition. But the problem is what's happening to the Emperor's essence - and all of the prayers which are directed towards him? Are they feeding into the chaos gods? Or are they coalescing into something different? And what about the other pantheon of gods from the thousands of other alien species - each being a personification of some aspect of belief? 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:



I, and (according to consistent rumours) GW disagree with you. The ultimate enemy of the 40k universe is, and always has been, Chaos.

Click to expand...

The original dynamic in w40k has been of course between chaos and the imperium. My point is that the way the tyranids have been set up right now is akin to the way the borg were setup in star trek as the uber villians. They show up infrequently but when they do, none of the other players are able to handle them on their own. Despite using the warp, they dont seem too affected by chaos._


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> The original dynamic in w40k has been of course between chaos and the imperium. My point is that the way the tyranids have been set up right now is akin to the way the borg were setup in star trek as the uber villians. They show up infrequently but when they do, none of the other players are able to handle them on their own. Despite using the warp, they dont seem too affected by chaos.


I bet you that's going to change. The Nids are going to be slowed or something due to the expansion of Chaos in the galaxy. They'll be demoted down to 2nd place for "big scary evil thing that will destroy the Imperium."


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

mbatemplar said:


> When thinking of the necrons/C'tan - one needs to think of the entire time span. The necrons/C'tan won the war in heaven, and had no other equals. They ruled the universe.


They didn't really win, the war ended without a definitive victor and certainly before the C'tan had any opportunity to rule. While the Old Ones were defeated the Eldar, Orks and Jokero have all survived (and prospered) which would not have happened had the Necrons and C'tan truly won.



> But the problem is what's happening to the Emperor's essence - and all of the prayers which are directed towards him? Are they feeding into the chaos gods? Or are they coalescing into something different?


The warp is emotions, not belief; feelings not thoughts. Righteous anger at the heretic still fuels Khorne because *all* anger fuels Khorne. All the Imperials faith is meaningless because the raw emotion that drives it feeds Chaos. 



> And what about the other pantheon of gods from the thousands of other alien species - each being a personification of some aspect of belief?


All anger, regardless of source or belief, fuels the warp being typically called Khorne. This being is called millions of names by millions of species but it is one being, simply one with many aspects. It does not matter who you pray to, if you are angry you feed Khorne, if you are hopeful you feed Tzeentch, etc, etc.

The Tyranids are no where near as insidious a threat as Chaos and thus in my mind they will never be its equal. Chaos is everywhere, in everyone. You cannot fight it, your hatred for it only makes it stronger, your quest to destroy it only makes it smarter. The Tyranids can be fought, they can be defeated; Chaos cannot, that is what makes it the ultimate threat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> When thinking of the necrons/C'tan - one needs to think of the entire time span. The necrons/C'tan won the war in heaven, and had no other equals. They ruled the universe.


As _MEQ_ said, there was no conclusive victor to the War in Heaven. Immediately after the defeat of the Old Ones, the Necrons rebelled and shattered the C'tan, in the process leaving the Eldar as the dominant galactic civilisation. 

The Old Ones were defeated by the combined efforts of the C'tan, the Necron legions and the warp entities indirectly unleashed by their own devices, but after the Necron rebellion enslaved the C'tan and the warp plagues had died out it left the Necrons and the Eldar as the dominant players - the Necrons subsequently then descended into the _Great Sleep_ because they were not strong enough to challenge the Eldar. So it's probably not accurate to claim _"they_ [Necrons or C'tan] _ruled the universe."_ 



mbatemplar said:


> They've had eons to rebuild those numbers - but what is not clear is whether or not they are still a united race.


The Necrons? No, if anything their numbers have greatly suffered during the _Great Sleep_ due to malfunction/invasion/disaster. They are also certainly not a united race, with countless Tomb Worlds still rousing themselves or still compeltely inactive, with the currently active dynasties all vying for power.



mbatemplar said:


> It seems puzzling to assume no one would surpass the necron tech level. Indeed, diffusion theory (where technology flows from areas of high levels to areas of low levels) would suggest that this would almost be a certainty.


The Necrontyr/Necrons had the C'tan's assistance and knowledge to bolster their own technology, as the codex notes _"...their science is still unparalleled..."_



mbatemplar said:


> Again, It is not clear what exactly is happening in the warp right now when it comes to the positive emotions such as love, hope, and happiness. Traditionally it was assumed that they were part of the 4 chaos gods, and were part of the balancing act of their composition.


_Codex: Chaos Daemons_ is certainly implicit in suggesting that what you call _"positive"_ emotions are part of the inherent make-up of the Chaos Gods. That is also the most logical conclusion to come to.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> While chaos is indeed an enemy of the necrons in the sense that in a battle they can still kill and destroy them, chaos' greatest weapon has always been able to corrupt from within. They take an honest man/marine/whatever and dig at insecurities, doubts, etc. until he is bowing a knee to whichever chaos god. Seeing as necrons don't have emotions for the chaos gods to twist and pick at, the necrons can't be turned.


No, but there's the possibility that a daemon could float around realspace as an energy anomaly and take up residency within a necron with no soul to conflict with the daemon's mastery of the necron's energy pathways.

Of course that opens up a whole other can of worms, like would the energy that a daemon is made up of, even if the daemon is adapted to exist the material universe without a material body, be compatible with the necron's energy pathways enough to control the necron outright? Do necrons, perhaps, have some sort of energy in their pathways imprinted with their identity (similar to a soul) that could conflict with a daemon attempting to possess them in the aforementioned manner?


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

The problem with the answers provided so far in regards to the Chaos Gods is that it seems to contradict information we have from earlier codices such as Realm of Chaos.

For example, we know that the Eldar Gods predated the Chaos Gods as distinct entities for thousands of years and that they later co-existed with them. In fact, circa 30,000 AD, the Emperor, Eldar Gods, and the Chaos Gods were all co-existing with each other. Even after the emergence of Slaneesh, there are still 3 other Eldar gods in existence. It's illogical to state that all of the emotions such as hope, fear, etc go nonstop to power the Chaos Gods when there are (or were) other deities that these emotions were directed to. Clearly, these were separate entities and not facets of the same force. 

In many ways, the warp gods are like an iceberg. An iceberg might form from the ocean, but it is not the ocean. Each god/deity that forms from the material of the warp might draw its sustenance from the same source, but that doesn't mean that they are the same. Indeed, like icebergs, they are reflection of the environment at the time that they were formed. The chaos gods were born the way that they were because of the way the warp was at the time of their creation circa 2000 Ad. 

I think another source of confusion is that people are believing that there is mutually exclusive relationship between the emotions of the mortal races and the Chaos Gods. Ie. when Nurgle says that he is the embodiment of fear and hope, or Khorne for bloodlust, that all of that "energy" if you will goes towards him. This is unlikely. The Eldar had been praying to their war god Khaine for millennia, despite being aware of Khorne, and they wouldn't have done so if they thought their prayers were strengthening him instead of their God. They knew that these were two separate powers that existed in the warp. Again, to return to the iceberg metaphor, two bergs can be drifting in the same current and drawing strength from it, but still be distinct.

In regards to the possibility of a new god forming from the Emperor, we do know that there is a possibility for new gods to form. The Eldar are trying to give birth to their new death god, and certainly the prroponents of the Star Child theory are believing a similar fate could lie in wait for the Emperor.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not on CotE's level, but I do want to offer my countering opinion.



mbatemplar said:


> For example, we know that the Eldar Gods predated the Chaos Gods as distinct entities for thousands of years and that they later co-existed with them. In fact, circa 30,000 AD, the Emperor, Eldar Gods, and the Chaos Gods were all co-existing with each other. Even after the emergence of Slaneesh, there are still 3 other Eldar gods in existence. It's illogical to state that all of the emotions such as hope, fear, etc go nonstop to power the Chaos Gods when there are (or were) other deities that these emotions were directed to. Clearly, these were separate entities and not facets of the same force.


Time means nothing in the Warp; I'm sure you know that. The Chaos Gods have always existed and never existed. Mortals only place ages on their "births" relative to time in the Materium, but in the Warp, this has no bearing. As suggested here, the Eldar Gods may or may not have been real; they may have been projections of Eldar societal and moral attributes, deified and praised. Even if that is not the case, however, it doesn't matter who these emotions are "directed" to - that is the subtle manipulation of Chaos, and why it is the greatest threat to mortal kind.



mbatemplar said:


> In many ways, the warp gods are like an iceberg. An iceberg might form from the ocean, but it is not the ocean. Each god/deity that forms from the material of the warp might draw its sustenance from the same source, but that doesn't mean that they are the same. Indeed, like icebergs, they are reflection of the environment at the time that they were formed. The chaos gods were born the way that they were because of the way the warp was at the time of their creation circa 2000 Ad.


Again, the Chaos Gods were always the way they are. Of course that sounds stupid, as it should, because the Warp isn't supposed to make much sense. The "birth" of a Chaos God simply marks the period in real time when that god has accumulated enough energy to manifest itself; it has always existed in the Warp, but only at its "birth" did it become a full-fledged god. I also think that, when it's born, it has always been born in the Immaterium, seeing as time also flows backwards and it can, in essence, rewrite the past. That may not be quite accurate, though. 



mbatemplar said:


> I think another source of confusion is that people are believing that there is mutually exclusive relationship between the emotions of the mortal races and the Chaos Gods. Ie. when Nurgle says that he is the embodiment of fear and hope, or Khorne for bloodlust, that all of that "energy" if you will goes towards him. This is unlikely. The Eldar had been praying to their war god Khaine for millennia, despite being aware of Khorne, and they wouldn't have done so if they thought their prayers were strengthening him instead of their God. They knew that these were two separate powers that existed in the warp. Again, to return to the iceberg metaphor, two bergs can be drifting in the same current and drawing strength from it, but still be distinct.


If Khaine was allegorical, then this point is invalid, of course. If he _was_ real, it doesn't matter. The Eldar may or may not have comprehended that all emotions feed the Chaos Gods. Few races do. The Emperor understood, which is why he wanted to eliminate religion and fanaticism. He knew that Chaos seeped into every little thing in the universe, and its taint could not be fought until it manifested itself. But I don't know if even he realized the extent to which the Ruinous Powers draw strength. If he had, then I think he would've turned ALL humans into servitors . I mean, it's easy for us to know the truth, because a book tells us so. But put yourself in their shoes and ask them to comprehend something so absurd. Even _hope_, _love_, _passion_, _courage_... even _those_ emotions feed our greatest enemy? It's not only hard to believe, it's something people - Eldar or human - don't _want_ to believe.



mbatemplar said:


> In regards to the possibility of a new god forming from the Emperor, we do know that there is a possibility for new gods to form. The Eldar are trying to give birth to their new death god, and certainly the prroponents of the Star Child theory are believing a similar fate could lie in wait for the Emperor.


Right, the "birth" of another "god" in the Warp is plausible. The Emperor may or may not have an ostensible presence in the Empyrean, whether its adrift and lost or it has claimed its own domain, and he may or may not be safeguarding the souls (or consuming, if that's how he maintains his power) of slain Imperials to use against Chaos in the Final Battle. The Eldar believe that once the last of them joins the Infinity Circuit, Ynnead will be born and will have the power to defeat Slaanesh - only Slaanesh, as a means to rectify their mistake as a race. If the Emperor is to battle the other Chaos Gods, he must have vastly more power. Even if all humans were to perish and feed him, I don't know if he could do it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> The problem with the answers provided so far in regards to the Chaos Gods is that it seems to contradict information we have from earlier codices such as Realm of Chaos.
> 
> For example, we know that the Eldar Gods predated the Chaos Gods as distinct entities for thousands of years and that they later co-existed with them. In fact, circa 30,000 AD, the Emperor, Eldar Gods, and the Chaos Gods were all co-existing with each other. Even after the emergence of Slaneesh, there are still 3 other Eldar gods in existence. It's illogical to state that all of the emotions such as hope, fear, etc go nonstop to power the Chaos Gods when there are (or were) other deities that these emotions were directed to. Clearly, these were separate entities and not facets of the same force.


As _Davidicus_ said, when it comes to the immaterium logic generally goes out the window. Considering the Eldar were a faction during the _War in Heaven_ and their mythic cycles refer to the Eldar Gods during that conflict we can assume that these entities were active (in a sense) over sixty million years ago. More recent lore also suggests that the rise of the Chaos Gods was a direct result of the _War in Heaven_ rather than as a result of humanity:

_"The galaxy is blossoming with life but still overrun with latent psykers and *worshippers of the infernal warp energies unleashed in the war with the Old Ones*."_ - _Codex: Necrons, 4th edition, p. 26._

As to the nature of the Eldar Gods in comparison to the Chaos Gods, I hold to the theory implied in _Codex: Eldar_ that the Eldar deities are merely the warp echo of the most prominent _"ideas and values"_ prevalent within the collective Eldar psyche; a blend of analogies (as a result of the Eldar mythic cycles attempting to explain the Eldar's psyche) and reality (as a result of the Eldar's collective effect on the warp). The Eldar Gods were only understood and worshipped by the Eldar, and were indeed caused by the Eldar themselves. The Chaos Gods on the other hand were brought to the fore by the vast and terrible conflict that was the _War in Heaven_, with the Eldar undoudtedly contributing to their rise. They were the result of the coalescing of similar thoughts and emotions within the warp, eventually becoming prominent enough to form rudimentary consciousnesses. All mortal races contributed to their rise and now to their dominance. The primary difference between the Eldar and Chaos Gods is the exclusive nature of the Eldar deities compared to the universal nature of Chaos; the Eldar contribute their share to the Blood God's power just as humanity does, but humanity doesn't contribute whatsoever to the Eldar deities. The fall of the ancient Eldar pantheon was the result of their representative _"ideas and values"_ falling out of favour within the Eldar psyche, to be replaced instead by the extreme values that ultimately gave rise to Slaanesh. 

As for the relationship between the Eldar and Chaos Gods prior to the Fall, it is hard to tell. Considering the Eldar Gods were the warp echos of the Eldar psyche and the Chaos Gods were the collective entities formed from the emotions of all mortals they may have been able to relatively easily co-exist - especially if we are talking in terms of analogies as the Eldar psyche would have had little reason to come into conflict with the collective emotional state of the galaxy's mortal races, especially considering the Eldar Empire was by far the most dominant galactic civilisation. It may also explain why the Eldar were able to reincarnate up until the Fall, their gods protecting them from the depridations of Chaos. If we're talking in terms of relative reality then there may have been cause for conflict between the Eldar and Chaos Gods, for nothing more than simply because of Chaos' rise in power. Considering no Eldar myths relate to such conflict however, and there is no mention of the Eldar of the Empire being effected by the Chaos Gods prior to the Fall, such conflicts can be thrown into doubt. There is also no record of Gork & Mork coming into conflict with the Chaos Gods beyond an obscure reference to them never losing.

Species which seem to have some form of a collective consciousness or psyche have to varying degrees formed their own gods within the warp; The Eldar and Greenskins being the two notable examples. Where as the Chaos Gods were formed from the emotions of all mortals. As I said earlier, that is the primary difference between them. However, having said all that considering time as a concept is meaningless in the warp much of what I just said doesn't make sense.

As you said _mbatemplar_, even now the Chaos Gods co-exist with 2(3) Eldar Gods, Gork & Mork, and whatever warp presence the Emperor maintains, which proves coexistence is possible. However, the Eldar Gods remain exclusive warp echos of what remains of the Eldar psyche, with the same applying to Gork & Mork in relation to the Greenskins. With the Emperor's presence being that of a mortal psyker's. So (in opposition to what you said) I think it is logical to state that all emotion goes _"nonstop to power the Chaos Gods"_, because that's what the Chaos Gods are - and the race exclusive gods (such as the Eldar's and Greenskin's) were not invested with their race's emotions anyway. 



mbatemplar said:


> In many ways, the warp gods are like an iceberg. An iceberg might form from the ocean, but it is not the ocean. Each god/deity that forms from the material of the warp might draw its sustenance from the same source, but that doesn't mean that they are the same. Indeed, like icebergs, they are reflection of the environment at the time that they were formed.
> 
> I think another source of confusion is that people are believing that there is mutually exclusive relationship between the emotions of the mortal races and the Chaos Gods. Ie. when Nurgle says that he is the embodiment of fear and hope, or Khorne for bloodlust, that all of that "energy" if you will goes towards him. This is unlikely. The Eldar had been praying to their war god Khaine for millennia, despite being aware of Khorne, and they wouldn't have done so if they thought their prayers were strengthening him instead of their God. They knew that these were two separate powers that existed in the warp. Again, to return to the iceberg metaphor, two bergs can be drifting in the same current and drawing strength from it, but still be distinct.


The problem here though is that it's never been stated that the Eldar Gods fed off or reflected the _emotions_ of the Eldar race. They were not the result of the Eldar's emotions, but the warp representations of the most common _"ideas and values"_ present within the Eldar psyche. The Eldar's emotions would still have contributed to the rise of Chaos just as much as the other mortal races.

Kaela Mensha Khaine was/is not the Eldar's god of hatred/rage/anger, he is their god of war - a concept that was part of their psyche. Khorne is the god of hatred/rage/anger that the Eldar contributed to with their emotions. Whilst the two (Khaine and Khorne) may have had similar attributes, they are generally seen as distinct entities. But as far as the lore goes, the Eldar's emotional anger/hate/rage did/does not feed or empower Khaine, it fed Khorne. 



mbatemplar said:


> The chaos gods were born the way that they were because of the way the warp was at the time of their creation circa 2000 Ad.


As I said earlier, much more recent lore suggests their creation (or at least rise) came about due to the _War in Heaven_. But again, claiming they were created at a specific time results in a paradox.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Again, the Chaos Gods were always the way they are. Of course that sounds stupid, as it should, because the Warp isn't supposed to make much sense. The "birth" of a Chaos God simply marks the period in real time when that god has accumulated enough energy to manifest itself; it has always existed in the Warp, but only at its "birth" did it become a full-fledged god. I also think that, when it's born, it has always been born in the Immaterium, seeing as time also flows backwards and it can, in essence, rewrite the past. That may not be quite accurate, though.


Heh, it's much more fun than that. The Warp _is_ the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not so much that the Warp can rewrite the past, but since the Warp is present in the past as well as the present, the past is affected by the Warp as easily as the present is. wacko

For instance:


When the Word Bearers "went back in time" and destroyed the Gellar fields protecting the Primarchs on Terra to allow Chaos to take them away, they didn't actually rewrite the past. They were there, in the Warp, at that moment in time, while simultaneously being in the Warp in the present and talking to Ingethel in both time periods. So the whole event was as much a part of that present as it was our past. They didn't change anything, it always happened that way.


Time flows differently in the Warp because it doesn't need to flow at all. You go in and out when it wants you to and you'll be a part of any time in history it wants you to be. Laws of physics are for losers. So the whole thing about the Chaos gods being "born" at certain points in history means very little, since they can also exist before they existed. FUN! :crazy:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

mbatemplar said:


> It's illogical to state that all of the emotions such as hope, fear, etc go nonstop to power the Chaos Gods when there are (or were) other deities that these emotions were directed to. Clearly, these were separate entities and not facets of the same force.


Others have pretty much covered this but I'd like to put my own spin on it (or really to reiterate what I said before). There are no other deities that emotions are directed to. Your primary confusion seems to be coming from the idea that thoughts and emotions are the same, which is fundamentally flawed. It does not matter to Khorne why you are angry, just that you are. Whereas the Eldar Gods (and similar) are far more concerned with why you choose to do something than what you are feeling at the time. Thus you may pray to Khaine for strength and possibly feed Khaine (if he exists) but if you are angry during this prayer than your anger will feed Khorne. Anger goes to Khorne, regardless of source, reasoning or anything else. Khorne is anger and all anger is Khorne.



> In many ways, the warp gods are like an iceberg. An iceberg might form from the ocean, but it is not the ocean.


I am not certain that this is an accurate analogy. I have always felt that the Chaos Gods represent currents in the warp, so a more accurate analogy might be comparing Khorne to the Gulf Stream, which is definitely part of the ocean just not all of it.



> The Eldar had been praying to their war god Khaine for millennia, despite being aware of Khorne, and they wouldn't have done so if they thought their prayers were strengthening him instead of their God. They knew that these were two separate powers that existed in the warp.


Do you have a source that shows that they knew this, rather than just believed it? Just because the Eldar didn't think that their collective emotions fueled Slaanesh didn't stop them from birthing it. The Eldar are not infalliable and we, the readers, know more about Chaos than they do.



> In regards to the possibility of a new god forming from the Emperor, we do know that there is a possibility for new gods to form.


Do we though? Slaanesh is said to have always existed within the warp even if its birth can be connected to a specific time in real-space. Does this not suggest that any God that will be formed already has, in some form, and thus that anything which has not formed never will? For all we know Khorne might be the entity that the Eldar are building towards with the final hateful breathes of their species, or be born from the war at the end of time.



> The Eldar are trying to give birth to their new death god, and certainly the prroponents of the Star Child theory are believing a similar fate could lie in wait for the Emperor.


That people believe this to be true does not make it so. Indeed many Eldar, and most humans, do not believe in these theories. And those that do (in universe) have no real evidence to support their claims beyond re-interpretations of ancient myths and hope (which feeds Tzeentch).


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Heh, it's much more fun than that. The Warp _is_ the past, present, and future simultaneously. It's not so much that the Warp can rewrite the past, but since the Warp is present in the past as well as the present, the past is affected by the Warp as easily as the present is. wacko
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...


Gotta give GW one thing: They know how to make a dimension of insanity quite maddening to think (or, worse, try to argue) about, even without the impossible colors and nightmare-spawned, soul-devouring abominations. Props!


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