# space marine legion numbers



## ArcAngels (Sep 19, 2007)

in collected visions it states that the marines legions were a hundred thousand strong, thats a hundred chapters alone if diveded, now in other sources ive read that the original legions were only ten thousand strong and easily divided, whats the case here cause im kinda confused, did the collected visions go a little overboard with numbers or were the orginal legions so massive that roboute's codex really did save the imperium from another heresy by dividing them up into chapters?? insight please


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

not all legions were the same size...the imperial fists only split into three chapters whilst the ultramarines split into a lot more.

overall though, i think 10 000 is more likely.


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## Logain_85 (Nov 27, 2007)

The reason for the difference in size is due to the fact the th imperial fists along with the blood angels were holding terra against horus. They lost many men. where as the ultra marines were still in transit and so didn't get there till after the battle, (jolly come latelys)

its easy to see why many legions were loath the split up after already having lost so many of their brothers.

Ive read that one legion was perfectly capable of taking a planet by itself. i would have thought that hundred thousand is not unthinkable. they maybe space marines, but they still die, and its a whole planet


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

Ultramarines were known for being innumberable lol In the HH series someone jokes about the Ultramarines doing so well because theres so many of them. but over board does seem likely as 100 000 seems a bit to much =]


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## ArcAngels (Sep 19, 2007)

thats what im sayin cause, its obvious that during the heresy alot of marines were killed and the time wasnt given to replace them. and yeah we all know russ had less men in his chapter then usual streangth, but that doesnt change my question, is the collected visions wrong? cause it clearly states that the warmaster controlled over 300,000 some thousand astartes during the hersy, thats alot of men and even 8 legions who are supposed to be ten thousand each maximum could never match those numbers. i know for a fact that recent fluff says ten thousand a legion, but collected visions makes it seem like a whole lot more, im just having a problem trying to take in what is cannon and what is not cannon, you know plus collected visions was a big release for GW, why make up numbers that would throw people like us into confusion right, doesnt naybody proof read anything before they release it


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

i agree, 10'000 seems right. i beleive the 'standard' number now is 12'000. i may be wrong, i just heard it somewhere.gah, ultramarines, late and boring


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## ArcAngels (Sep 19, 2007)

Its funny how on wikipedia it lists the casualties from the war, horus loosing 3 trillion and the emperor loosing 2 trillion, im sorry but thats alot of people to kill in a a couple years of civil war


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Legions were of all diffrent stengths.. the truth is they were without number to begin with as they would recruit and take all that would meet their criteria... the beginning of hte Horus Heresy novels places the Luna Wolves at 23 companies. By the end of the heresy some legions were so small they didnt have any successor chapters. On the other hand some like the Ultramarines came out and founded about 20 full Chapters.

Only thing you really have to think about... Legions were damn strong.. the Legions of the Great Crusade were strong enough to take entire planets and systems on their own in a matter of months. The Emporers Children were the weakest Legion in the beggining due to a problem with their gene-seed. Even still on their own they took down the Laer system in approx. a month and the Laer were a race who had guns the equivalent to the Vespid Stingwings. On several occasions several Legions fought together. In 40K its supposed to be great when a full chapter goes to war.. ~1000 strong... during the Crusade it was nothing to see 20K-80K go swarm a planet.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Moved to Fluff


*The Wraithlord
Heretical High Council*


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

ArcAngels said:


> thats what im sayin cause, its obvious that during the heresy alot of marines were killed and the time wasnt given to replace them. and yeah we all know russ had less men in his chapter then usual streangth, but that doesnt change my question, is the collected visions wrong? cause it clearly states that the warmaster controlled over 300,000 some thousand astartes during the hersy, thats alot of men and even 8 legions who are supposed to be ten thousand each maximum could never match those numbers. i know for a fact that recent fluff says ten thousand a legion, but collected visions makes it seem like a whole lot more, im just having a problem trying to take in what is cannon and what is not cannon, you know plus collected visions was a big release for GW, why make up numbers that would throw people like us into confusion right, doesnt naybody proof read anything before they release it





He controlled like 8 legions thats why he controlled 300000
and no legion was 10000 strong most legions would be around 20000 and Im sure it wasn't only the ultramarines who were very strong numerically some of the traitor legions would of numbered 30000+ but thats still not enough I think its just trying to dramatise it to it all lots and lots of people fighting is alwaus cooler than 10=]



ArcAngels said:


> Its funny how on wikipedia it lists the casualties from the war, horus loosing 3 trillion and the emperor loosing 2 trillion, im sorry but thats alot of people to kill in a a couple years of civil war


This is including heretical guard/imperial guard, in the 40k world theres like 1 trillion people per planet =]


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

ArcAngels said:


> Its funny how on wikipedia it lists the casualties from the war, horus loosing 3 trillion and the emperor loosing 2 trillion, im sorry but thats alot of people to kill in a a couple years of civil war


its not just a civil war, its almost a galactic civil war. both sides annhilated entire planets, as well as the marines and guardsmen fighting on each side throughout the empire


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

In addition to the Space Marine legions turning there was Traitor Guard and the Dark Adeptus Mechanicus. After Horus rebelled a number of other human planets which were recently "compliant" became "non-compliant" if you know what I mean.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

The magnitude of the populace of the galaxy is mind-boggling, so the concept of trillions of dead also is hard to grasp.

Innumerable planets, say a trillion people per planet. 

Legions numbering from say 5k (Emperor's Children guesstimate) to Ultramarines 20k+ (they did spawn something like 20 chapters by themselves)...so an average of say 15,000 per Legion, and 18 or so Legions (270,000 Astartes on average...and these are the uber-elite, best of the best...and the majority of "recruits" never actually make it to become an astartes). 

Add to that the thousands of IG Regiments (at approx 1k a piece), and say an average of 30% casualties...even 20%...it's easy to see how the numbers add up just among the military, not to mention the planets "cleansed". Frightning? Yeah. 

I think Gav Thorpe captured the "Grim Darkness" of the future best in the first Last Chancers novel, where almost 2k prisoners were essentially liquidated for a squad to attempt a suicide mission. Life means little when you have trillions to throw away.

If say a dozen planets were effectively wiped clean, we would see several trillion dead,(easy) and that would still only be a small number in comparison to mankind in general across the galaxy. Large when you consider your place on a planet, and us as 21st Cent humans...yeah, the number is mind-boggling.

Then again, we ARE talking about math in the 40k(30k?) Universe...which has never really made any sense.


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

my bros ex army and he says a real ligion is close to 100,000 men not 10,000 so alot of marines died in the heresy horus kiled about half his with virus bombs remeber so he had alot of marines to be willing and able to sustain that loss 10,000 not enough to take a 5,000 man loss and still be dangerous I dont care what those 5,000 are gaurdsmen or marines we alone have over 100,000 men in iraq so I can easily see that many marines in a legion

my legion alone is 84,000 marines strong. Glory to the 11th!!!!!

vengence for our father
burn the imperium of man for failling him


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

> alot of marines died in the heresy horus kiled about half his with virus bombs


they mostly virus bombed innocent planets like istvaan 3? and tallarn. marines are pretty much immune to virus bombing anyway, due to their armour.

i guess that if you look up numbers for roman legions, youll find your answer there.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Well...for the Roman Legions the number varied greatly by period. Most people think of the legions in terms of the Imperial period, just after Augustus (Octavian) in which the Legion Numbers were pretty static.

The legio comprised of the basic building block of the Century, led by a Centurio which had usually 80-100 men. Ten Centuries per Cohors which is led by a Tribuni Angustclavii, which was an equestrian ranked Tribune. So effectively 800 to 1000 Men led by a Tribune who had come up through the ranks.

A Legio was comprised of usually 4-5 Cohors. In Charge was a Legate, which was usually a senator who was assigned as leader for the legion, often with little to no military experience (though some Legates did make a career of the military and were excellent at what they did, this was the exception not the rule. Military Service was a path to power and prestige as well as a duty.) Under the Legatus was a Tribune (senatorial class) who was effectively a Legate in-training, and he performed the duties of executive officer. Also there would be the staff of Tribunes (angunstclavii/ "little-stripe" who were all former centurions) who were the command staff, advisors and Cohors Commanders. One other man was in the staff, the Primus Pilii, or First Spear Centurion who was the senior centurion of the entire legion, who was effectively the Command Sergeant Major and raised from a Pleb to an Equestrian rank. Usually the most experienced guy in the Legion.

That all applies to the early imperial infantry-based legions. For the later periods cavalry became more important and infantry became largely garrison forces. Imperial Roman Legions started adding Auxilla Cohorts to fill the ranks made up of barbarians from far away lands who swore allegiance to Rome. By the late 3rd Century AD the Imperial Legions were being replaced by the auxila frontier troops and a roving field army and by the 4th and 5th centuries the army was largely unregognizable from the Caesarian/ Marian period legions.

Before the Imperial Period, in the republic the legions were VASTLY different, organized in maniples and made up of all land-owners.


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## ArcAngels (Sep 19, 2007)

numbers vary, but what im concerned about is the innacuracies between collected visions and the HH novel series which stands at 6 books i belive, (the 7th being legion and 8th battle for the abyss) it seems like they did a good job at tying all the big details to match one another but it just feels like somone in head office let his cousin who dint know jack shit about the numbers of astartes and decided to say horus had control of some....this is a quote from collected visions p114 "there was no limit on the size of a space marine legion and most of them could muster at least 100,000 combatants. The Ultramarines legion was by far the largest, and it's primarch, Roboute Guilliman, could call upon the services of over 250,000 Space marines." thats pretty big if you ask me cause ive never heard of the legions being that big


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## DeusMortemEst (Dec 14, 2007)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> i agree, 10'000 seems right. i beleive the 'standard' number now is 12'000. i may be wrong, i just heard it somewhere.gah, ultramarines, late and boring


Yeah, true. The Ultramarines are damn boring, and so are the 'Fists. Anyways, aout 10.000 seems right. If there were 100.00, there would be an avrage 100 chapters per ex-legion, which definately isn't right.


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

the virus doesnt get the marines its the big ass explosion after the virus turns the planets atmosphere into a gas bomb and more to support me the chapters were formed from whats left not the hole legion before the heresy so as stated before lots and lots of marines died in the heresy

p.s. Glory to the 11th!!!!!


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## ArcAngels (Sep 19, 2007)

thats still a big inconsistency between visions and the HH book series


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

they forgot what they said then. explained it is make believe

ya more space marines

the game begins

I will lead the charge!!!!!!!!!!


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