# chapter crossing



## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

i am a black templar player. i own the codex, i have the appropriate color scheme, the right symbols and emblems and attitude all over my army, bought the chapter upgrade and all that jazz.

it really annoys me that some people who have space marine armies say they are using templar rules. i think its pretty lame to do that. if you like templar rules so much you should make a templar army. 

granted, maybe you like one color scheme a lot and dont want to have two different space marine armies or w/e. to me, seems like that was your choice and so you should use codex space marine rules.

i dont know if the blood angels, dark angels, and space wolves have had the same thing happen. if i was a blood angels player and loved their fluff, options, rules, and look and someone with no actual blood angel pieces in their army said they wanted to use BA rules i think i would feel the same way.

a lot of players have been getting an emperors champion model to put in their army so they can have the vows and be an "actual" templar army or something. like hell! lol, doesnt make the rest of your army black templars. 

if your a templar, angel, or wolf army player, does this bother you at all? and for everyone, do you or would you allow opponents to do this? i know it seems like a long rant for something pretty stupid but it bugs me a lot, it takes a lot away from the game for me.


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

Honestly I'm fine with it, hell I'm guilty of doing it myself.

but you should look at it from the other point of view, if I want to play as the BT or DA or BA or SW every now and again why the hell should I buy a whole lot minis which are exactly the same as the ones I have, or repaint them?
It should be fine to just have the models unique to that army and use the other ones you already have.
besides there is nothing saying that you can't have a self made chapter which has those traits but a different paint scheme.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

How do you feel about people who have Flesh Tearers, a Blood Angels Successor, using the Blood Angels Codex? Or Angels of Absolution, a Dark Angels Successor, using the Dark Angels Codex? What about people who come up with their own Chapter descended from the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves Legions? 

While the Black Templars are a seperate case, because they're not a First Founding Chapter and don't have successors, plenty of Chapters have split with the Codex Astartes, and it's possible that the Black Templars rules simply match up better with the idea a player has for how their army fights. The same goes with the Space Wolves, really-- maybe the player wants a barbaric Space Marine army that doesn't follow the Codex Astartes, and in that case, the Space Wolf rules are appropriate.

The point is that the Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolf codecies are written with those Chapters and their successors in mind, but ultimately, it doesn't matter how you paint your models, and if I showed up with Space Marines in pink power armour with a yellow smiley face as their Chapter icon, and told you they're really a bunch of brooding assholes despite their bright colors and happy face icon, and was using the Dark Angels rules for them, then I'd be well within my rights to do so-- just because they're not green doesn't mean they can't be Dark Angels in tabletop terms.

Now, that being said, I do think you should stay consistent-- the Chapter should, as a whole, be drawn from the same Codex, if you're building towards an Apocalypse army, unless you have a good reason to do otherwise, or the storyline of the mission (since Apocalypse is meant to be very story-driven) provides a reason otherwise.


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

No offence meant, what the hell. Sure it may take some away from you, but it takes away the whole game away from them, playing an army they don'y want to. they choose their army, not you. if they paint them Ultra Marines and have ultramarines symbols but they wanna use rules of SW, then let 'em.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

GW themselves suggest using codex rules to represent homebrew chapters as well, I dont see the issue with it. Its part of the appeal of the game is being able to write in your own story and your own fiction into the greater lore of the game.

I count myself as a space wolves player as thats the codex I play the most but my main army colour is this:-










But then I also have some alternative colour schemes within the chapter, as part of the fiction behind my chapter also runs codex dark angels, or codex space marines, or codex eye of terror... Both my dark angels models and spacewolves models are in the snot green colour, but the terminators are in different colours - just because I like deathwing.

Its not at all impossible to see these guys together on the same army When Im playing.








.

Theres also my up and coming chaos army that are also part of the chapter, their main colour scheme looks like this:-










These guys represent my "mini fallen" who fell to slaanesh worship during their time in the warp but can also represent my "mini 13th company" (alongside my actual 13th company models that GW no longer sell) who are on a crusade to chase down their fallen bretheren and uphold the chapters honour... I have in fact got tons of "proper" space wolves marines, and even the 13th company boxed stuff and the dark angels specific figures. When I field an army I will select figures with the correct weapons for their codex choice, but I will also "theme" the army for the story line of the battle normally a "unit" will be all space wolves or all dark angels models, but within one army list I may have a unit of bloodclaws models as bloodclaws and a unit following greyhunters rules being represented by dark angels models. As long as they follow wysiwyg rules and they look like a cohesive army on the table top Im happy.

My armies fluff can be found here:-

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30496

I love the spacewolves models, the "real" spacewolves fiction etc but I also loved the darkangels robes etc. I wanted my own colour scheme, my own characters my own story, so thats exactly what Ive done.

Ive spent more time on painting, converting and story working than I ever will playing the army on the tale top. Being able to "do my own thing" as long as its within the official rules is a major part of the games appeal for me. I simply couldnt have the same sort of interest if I was slavishly following someone else's creations. 

Might as well sell the boxs ready painted if we were only to stick to using the exact army the codex is based on.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

alright some fair points. sorry if i sounded like an asshole. i know i am a little crazy about my chapter...but its how i forget about my troubles lol. 

i think the whole and green terminators togeather would be pretty sweet.

i like sons of horus's post, successor chapters makes sense, and people can even make up successor chapters which i didn't really think about, black templars actually have even had very underground ones, the red templars and the white templars. but also yeah, if your going to go that way with an army you should stay consistent i agree.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm one of those players you are talking about. I've modeled, built, and designed my entire space marine collection to be able to play from both BT and the nilla SM codex's while choosing the White Templars color scheme from the "How to paint space marines" book to make it unified. If you got angry with me for that I'd tell you to get lost and find a new opponent.

As long as they aren't mixing rules from codex to codex, you are way out of line for getting angry about a different paint scheme.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I can understand you getting annoyed if they're inconsistent. If, for example, they chose Codex, based on opponent, unless it was to disadvantage themselves (eg, against a new player), that would be very unsportsmanlike, and tantamount to cheating. Otherwise though, it's not an issue for me - I just see it as whatever way they want to play - fluff works around 'reality' not the other way around. If I want to use, for example, a company of Iron Hands using Space Wolves rules, I'll just make up some fluff to justify it. it's not canon, but my opponent, unless they're a member of the Design Team (and even then...) has no right to question the validity of my backstory. My motives, sure. But not whether or not it's within the rules. :grin:


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

I have to agree with you IF (remember that) someone were to use space wolf rules and they had no space wolf models in their army (not even a wolf guard or pack of claws, fangs or hunters) i would get annoyed, but that could just be because i am a space wolf, we are very loyal haha. all jokes aside though, i think it is a cop out, if you want to play an army, play the army in it's entirety, even if it is a successor chapter, Give it some character put some pelts/crosses/blood drops/wings on your SW/BT/BA/DA rip off's respectively, i don't even care about their colour, because at the end of the day, my wolves would still be wolves and have the same character, feel and style even if they were yellow, because they look like space wolves, but if someone had a Nilla army with the tactical marine markings trying to they were grey hunters and having a captain with the eagle bp and saying he was wolf lord, i wouldn't play him, i'm big on the fluff and painting/modeling etc, and i wouldn't enjoy the game just because of that.

NOW i said remember that if, well let's face it no one wants to play puppies atm anyway so i don;t have that problem anymore. So that if is non existent.


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

im actually totally opposite this opinion, i think if you want to play loyal space marines then you should have to draw from the vanilla marine codex, as after all you are all suposed to follow codex tactics and organization after the heresy.

imo having chapter specific codexs is unfair to people that dont want to play a standard GW chapter as they get a half arsed sm army and unfair to the other armys that have to put up with one codex for all.

and just to prove im not biased i don't think there should be a csm legions codex as its unfair iron warriors shroud be allowed extra heavy's or only the black legion should get to pick anything they want. 

i guess in summary i think either the variations should stay firmly in the fluff and not effect the GAME element.
either one rule for all chapters or free choice within the family of codexs.

if it winds you up i think your taking it far to seriously, it is after all a GAME and intended to entertain.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

True but would you be entertained by it if everyone was plaing the exact same list with different colours? I like the idea of chapter specific codexes because some chapter ARE important enough for their own codex, and so what if the black legion codex may or may not let them choose from any of the chaos units? i can guarrantee you that the puritist dex's version of that unit will be stronger or the very least more useful because it will directly compliment the other units in the army.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm sorta the same with my ideals of what the Iron Warriors are. It bugs the hell out of me when other marine players whether loyalist or traitors use titans or basilisks. It's official fluff supported that all loyalist titans are parts of titan legios which are not really connected to any marines while the chaos legios of titans keep to themselves mostly except in the case of the titan legio the Iron Warriors specifically took control of.

It's not quite the same since titans are available to use with any army in Apoc and while building an Ultramarines warhound would be retarded there are no rules that your warhound needs to look a certain way with specific icons then basilisks are no longer legally part of Iron Warriors armies except in the case of Apoc games in which any marine army could have some basilisks attached from an IG or Traitor Guard army.

It's funny that I basically condemn anyone that uses a "marine titan" while I have considered using various loyalist marine rules sets to get access to different things like land raider redeemers and whirlwinds though I kinda think those sorts of vehicles fit with the Iron Warrior fluff as they would totally go seeking to steal such items and they would maintain them better than anyone else.

EDIT:
I wanna note I'm TOTALLY for an apoc army that is like loyalist marines and a warhound if the Warhound comes from a legio cause that is how the Imperium works. The Legio sends titans in support of SM, IG, OD, OX and OH assaults. It's similar with attaching Baneblades or armour sections to a marine assault or if you think of the fluff terms of how IG infantry is often supported by IG armour from other regiments. It may be nice to tie everything together with a common paint scheme and maybe it means you need to buy less colors or it may be easier cause you only have to work with a few colors and their shades but in terms of fluff sense it seems idiotic and if you don't care about the fluff at all go play chess or some video games cause fluff is a valid part of 40k.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

Lord of Rebirth, I'd kiss you right here and now but i don't think my girlfriend would approve  haha


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

unxpected you did sound like an asshole, but maybe it was just the way you wrote it down. If you refuse to play because they wanna do this then you are a major asshole, but if you can let them play with you(lol) and still use the rules they wanna, and complain after the game then you are a closest asshole like the rest of us. No-one can deny it, every one got a peice of closet asshole in them and maybe this is it. that's okay.

Jesus i sound like a shrink


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

thank you wolfgang and rebirth, i think you guys explained how i feel a little better than i did. as for the rest, i understand your positions, just something i was bugged by and wanted to check to see what the community thought on the subject. if there was a general consensus that i was wrong then so be it. 

i go along with wolfgang and rebirth though, in that these chapters or factions (forgot chaos players might have run into this stuff) have their own rules for a reason. they are special and i feel like they deserve to be treated as such. they have specific histories that go along with why they fight certain ways or how they have attained such abilities. i dont like the idea of other armies ripping them off, but yes it is a game and everyone is entitled to their fun. 

as for siphon's comment, if you play white templars and you play templar rules that makes perfect sense to me, they came from the black templars after all, and thats sweet by the way i wish i could see a well painted white templar army some time.

as far as im concerned if you can back it up and i can see you have specifically modeled your army after certain ideals and the like, and are not just throwing an emperors champion in your red scorpion space marine army or something and saying your playing black templars, then id be perfectly okay with it.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

No problem man, I am a Space Wolf so chapter pride is about all i have at the moment because we can;t really do well on the battlefield in our current state, so if i am going to get my butt handed to me i want it to be by someone who at least has the same respect for their army that i do . It's a shame you are in the US i'd love to play a game against someone like you


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

lol thanks. black templars are known for being a tough space marine army, but space wolves are damn tough. scary. 

from what i can tell, dark angel fanatics seem to be the MOST fanatic about their chapter. compared to templar fanatics like me or other chapters. id like to have one of them join this thread. see what they think. (and holy cow they have some of the best painters...google image search blood angels warhammer 40k and dark angels warhammer 40k and look at the difference, last time i did anyway it was obvious who had the better painters as a whole.)


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## lostprophet (Jun 8, 2008)

you know I kinda run this the other way, I love the models for the BT but I ended up hating the gameplay aspects of the rules, so I made a huge black templars army and a now using the SM codex for them. Does that make me bad?


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

lostprophet said:


> you know I kinda run this the other way, I love the models for the BT but I ended up hating the gameplay aspects of the rules, so I made a huge black templars army and a now using the SM codex for them. Does that make me bad?


lol, i guess you just made the mistake of not testing out your army before buying a bunch. i bought before playing too but guess i was lucky because i do really like their rules. personally i dont know how you could not like their rules, but to each his own. obviously asking you to like, repaint your army or something would be ridiculous. i think most players would allow you to play normal space marine rules, unless of course you were still using Templar specific models for some reason, like helbrecht, grimaldus, champion, etc.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

unxpekted22 said:


> lol, i guess you just made the mistake of not testing out your army before buying a bunch. i bought before playing too but guess i was lucky because i do really like their rules. personally i dont know how you could not like their rules, but to each his own. obviously asking you to like, repaint your army or something would be ridiculous. i think most players would allow you to play normal space marine rules, unless of course you were still using Templar specific models for some reason, like helbrecht, grimaldus, champion, etc.


I use a (slightly) converted Helbrecht model for both Helbrecht in BT armies and Vulkan in Nilla armies.

Champ is champ in BT armies and until last week when I made a new conversion, I was using the champ model with a plasma pistol glued to his open hand as Sicaruis.

Grimaldus is just the coolest looking Chappy model out there. Why wouldn't I use it?

I think you care too much about your opponents armies. As long as they stick to one codex, I don't see the problem. However if they were using lego peices or plastic army men I would see an issue, but you are complaining about color and bits, which is all that seperates nilla marines and BT marines.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

I can see this isn't an issue that will ever be solved but i can tell you there is a HUGE difference, people using the models doesn't bother me so much as long as they make n effort adapt them to their army (removing chapter specific icons and the like to "clean" it) but for example someone who had a slaaneshi army, full of npise marines and the like and saying "I'm playing this as SW" that would just annoy me, if you want to use the rules and "adopt" the reputation of that army then you should play that army, or at least make it look like you are. I play my space wolf dex even though it is pathetically weak compared the 5th edition, and people say, "Why not use Nilla? you can get the same units WITH a missile launcher for less points" and i just tell them "Because i don't play Nilla" it's simple as that, play the army you chose, RULES and MODELS don;t make list that you swap from dex to dex, whatever suits you, build another army if you want to do that because it just cheapens the game


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

I play Dark Angels, using their own codex. I haven't had a chance to try out a list using the new Codex: Space Marines and the DA special characters, I'm not too sure how I feel about that yet. 

I myself follow my chapters colour scheme fairly closely (regular Dark Angels are green, Ravenwing are black and Deathwing are white) but I don't care what anybody else does as far as painting goes.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Siphon said:


> I use a (slightly) converted Helbrecht model for both Helbrecht in BT armies and Vulkan in Nilla armies.
> 
> Champ is champ in BT armies and until last week when I made a new conversion, I was using the champ model with a plasma pistol glued to his open hand as Sicaruis.
> 
> ...


"but you are complaining about color and bits, which is all that seperates nilla marines and BT marines."

Yes, thats why its a problem. 

and grimaldus IS the coolest chaplain out there, thats why we, the most zealous chapter out there, get him...not anyone else...


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

Heh i don't know about the COOLEST, Ulrik (although not technically a chaplain) is better in my opinion, i mean come one! the guy turned down being a Wolf Lord! anyone whp has the guts to do that is awesome! hahaha


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

unxpekted22 said:


> "but you are complaining about color and bits, which is all that seperates nilla marines and BT marines."
> 
> Yes, thats why its a problem.
> 
> and grimaldus IS the coolest chaplain out there, thats why we, the most zealous chapter out there, get him...not anyone else...


It's not a problem unless you're 12. Basically it's you saying, "I'm going to get mad if your army doesn't look like what I say it should look like" OR "I get to use this awesome cool looking model and you can't...unless you paint it exactly like me and play using my rule book. Heck no to letting you use it as a normal chappy in another space marine army, Gawd." 

Get over yourself. If someone wants to paint an army the colors of the BT and loves their bits but hates the BT rules...who are you to get pissy with them for designing their army the way they want and using the marine codex they want.

Conversely if someone hates the BT colors and bits, and loves the Nilla look, but loves the BT rules...Again who are you to get all pouty about it.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I guess if you knew me you'd know not to take me so seriously, jeez. i mean it would annoy me to see someone playing a grimaldus that wasnt grimaldus, but its not like im gonna get on some pedestal and preach to them about why what they are doing is wrong. heh, plus i just really like the black templars and i like backing up their shit even though its all fictional.


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