# I know Tyranids don't suck, so why do they for me?



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

I'll say it right now my lists probably aren't as focused towards one thing as they should be, averaging out somewhere between a swarm army and everything else.
But even then, I can imagine how many of the popular lists will fair against my SM enemy.
Poorly.
He has CC Terminators, enough squads with power fists and what not to rule close combat, and then just enough Las Cannon/Auto Cannon/Heavy Bolter/Rocket Launcher fire to take down my Tyrant, my two 'Fexs and my three Zoanthropes.

So allow me to spell out a game between us.
I start, I move in.
Broodlord and retinue taking the side route, utterly raping anything in it's path.
Opposite of that is my main army, consisting of 2 full squads of genestealers, 2 squads of 15 Hormies, 2 squads of 20 Termagaunts, 6 warriors keeping synapse up close. My close combat fex and my ranged fex stare him down among this sea, flanked by zoanthropes and raveners. My flyrant makes his way towards the slaughter. 

I move up, my expendable termies and hormies up front with genestealers in tow, fex and zoanthropes firing off. Not bad, pick off a few before the melee.

His turn.
FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE.
One squad of hormies is gone, another is wounded, and the termies are ignored. CC fex has 2 wounds left, Flyrant has 3 left. Broodlord's retinue is reduced to 3 genestealers.

On my turn my lictor comes in, and I get a squad of hormies into combat, the other just falling short.

I kill maybe 6 guys from assault.

His turn.

FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE.
CC fex dead, Zoanthrope dead, Flyrant with 2 wounds, Genestealer squad crushed.

My point?
I have no idea how to survive an onslaught of fire.
My friend fields SM and is now adding Grey Knights in.
Basically he loves his terminators, and hardly uses tanks.
He has 6 Landspeeders, a few heavy weapons teams.
But it's just insane the amount of shots his army gets a turn.

If I went Nidzilla I'd lose for sure, 8 TMC's? As I come close they are Las'd to death. I might get one or two into damaging distance.

Shock Stealer? I'd be drowned out in a rain of fire since Stealers don't move as fast as Hormies.

Swarm? This is the only one I think MIGHT work, because he just doesn't have enough to cover ALL of that, but his termies would make short work of them in CC.

Any players out there with ideas on how to deal with Las etc while under suppressive fire?


----------



## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

well the only armies that have i problems with is my own (nids) orks and one unit Noise marines.... i play swarm but only have 2 MC in my army a flyrant and a spinper fex this has proven to be very efftive in many ways... i find broodlords cost to many points and don't fleet, if i needed a second kind of HQ it would be warriors, these guys can shoot and fight, people say don't mic CC and shooting i do with my warriors and get them to shoot at things then add there weight in CC, now i know it's heard but i find the key to use nids is to get cheap gaunts to block LoS and the like and then get your faster units to stop your opp from shooting. 

P.S none of this might not make any sence sorry


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

I do block LOS, well, as well as a unit can block another unit.
He just passes his LD test and shoots what he wants.
The Broodlord usually gets into combat turn 2, since he infiltrates, so I'm not worried about him being too slow or anything.


----------



## dander (Jan 13, 2008)

i've been playing the nids and i think your best bet is a one trick pony. pick your trick

nidzilla- you have no idea what any one will do with 8 tmc's facing them. then gargoyle or flying rippers to fill out your troops and tying up any real problems. this is devatating but you have to be totally geared to kill em with the big boys.

staelershock- works with just stealers. and a whole lot of them. scuttle, add talons or armor but deploy those guys right. you need a lot of stealers close fast(fleet). 6 troop choices and one hq all stealers=too much to shoot at. something will get into cc.

horde- works but you need numbers. a lot of numbers. huge squads of gaunts. 32 will make it across the board with decent number left. tie them up let something bigger endgame( tyrant, stealers,warriors)

just pimp out one aspect of the army.
all or none. done right all will win most the time.


----------



## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

what is your exact list? it wuld be a good help if we could see it.


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

My list is a constant changing list.
I try one thing, doesn't work?
Try something else.

Typical list that spreads from 1500-3000 pts.

HQ
Tyrant (TL Devourers, or wings and scything talons)
Broodlord and full Retinue. This is my most successful endeavor, so I almost always have it.

ELITE
1 Lictor (I only have one, and I love getting it into the Heavy Weapons teams.)
6 Warriors, broken into two units with scything talons/rending claws and leaping.

TROOPS
2 squads of Hormagaunts, usually 10-15 depending on game point size.
2 squads of Termagaunts, usually 15-20 depending on game point size.
2 full squads of Genestealers with +svs in higher point games.

FAST ATTACK
2 one man units of Raveners with scything talons and rending claws.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Sniper fex, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses.
CC fex, Crushing Claws, Scything talons, thornback, +sv, etc depending on point size.
Three Zoanthropes with Synapse and warpblast.

That's a general overlay of my armies.
Sometimes there are rippers in place of one of the other troops choice, and I only have 31 Hormies, and no gargoyle models. (Not fond of their models, or their price. D: )


----------



## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I don't understand how he's getting so many kills in his shooting. Does he field a static gunline? Is it geared exclusively towards killing 'nids? (cuz that wouldn't be fun for either of you...)

And next question, how much cover do you have? The table should have enough cover for a LOT of your troops to get cover saves as you advance. 

I would ditch the CC fex, it's near worthless IMO. The double-devourer dakkafex is far better, it WILL kill marines as its 8 twin linked shots that reroll to wound (wounding on 2s IIRC). Also it will make short work of landspeeders. Move 6" and shoot 18" gives it a 24" threat range which should be enough to start firing right away.


----------



## maxtangent (Jan 31, 2008)

You only have two MCs providing cover fire - that can explain why you are unable to suppress his LCs and speeders.

You have also discovered the horror of too few Warriors. I'd either go whole hog with them, or drop them. Also, I think you need at least one more Lictor to make them viable.

I like the Raveners - do you use the 'Fexes to screen them so the Ravs can keep those Termies in check? They, are, however, 80 points you may wish to put towards more MCs.

It seems like you are combining competing strategies. You have some fire support, but not enough. You have some CC, but not enough. 

I'd dump the warriors for another Sniperfex, drop the CC fex for one (maybe two) Elite 'Fexes with Devourers and ES. Then, I would either go with more 'Stealers, with the Hormagaunts screening, or more Termagaunts. Basically, try to make your little guys either CC or shooty, and back them up with long range 'Fexes and Zoeys so that he has more to worry about than your Tyrant. If you are stuck on having a CC 'Fex, consider cutting it to 2 sets of STs and minimal upgrades so you can take it as an Elite choice. If it gets into combat, fine - if not, you didn't lose a lot of points and it soaked up a lot of fire that could have been shooting the rest of your army.

Absolute035 is dead on about dakkafexes and your Flyrant taking out those Landspeeders (Biovores with Bioacid mines work well too). You get good at taking them out and that is a lot of points and firepower your opponent is losing. Those and his AP2 weapons are top priorities - remove them soon enough and you should win.

Having said all that, facing 6 Landspeeders is no fun at all.


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

Absolute035 said:


> I don't understand how he's getting so many kills in his shooting. Does he field a static gunline? Is it geared exclusively towards killing 'nids? (cuz that wouldn't be fun for either of you...)


Honestly?
Yeah, his army is geared to beat Nids, and it's more or less a static gunline with the Terminators to hug the frontlines.
Fun for me? No.
For for him? Yeah.
He just likes winning, he's always been that way.

I'll consider wiping the warriors for a Fex and dumpin the CC fex for two more dakka fexes.
Meaning I need 2 more Carnifex models. D:
As for my troops, I love having the mix, but it obviously doesn't work too well.
I'll consider going Hormies or Termies, but for whatever reason I have more ranged gaunts than Hormies.

As for cover?
We can never agree on having cover, I always put 'too much' on the board for him, and he never gives me enough.
It more or less becomes him hugging the area that has no cover and forcing me to cross it firing range style to get to him.
Sometimes it's worth fighting him over and sometimes not.
At any rate, I'd like to just beat him someday and start a winning streak to make him feel bad about cheating me my cover and always playing his winning crap in every game we play.
It's a bit of a personal vendetta. ;D


----------



## Zeldrin (Feb 23, 2008)

It sounds like your main problem is you have a space marine player who knows how to beat 'nids. In my opinion tanks are a waste against nids. Close combat termies are lethal as is a mass of basic marines firing static. 

I would suggest swarm to beat his list.

He has close combat termies - flip the tables on him, don't charge them, shoot them! A unit of termegants can, in my experience, easily decimate a 5 man squad in a round of shooting if you get lucky. 

Be sure to play with lots of terrain. Remember, he will want less cover as it blocks his LOS and is ood for you. I used to play a guy who played no terrain at all, just a barren board. You can imagine this made using 'nids that much more difficult (especially under the old rules lol).

In all likelihood he will deploy and stay still. Use this to your advantage. Spend a turn in the back field out of reanch of the guns repositioning units. If you are lucky he will move and waste shots or you will have the edge when you do reach the line - win win.

You really need to take full squads of gribblies, at half strength they just have no impact. You can expect at least half of you trops to die by the time they reach a gun heavy line and full squads means they still hit with an impact when they get there.

Try and outnumber a gun heavy army three to one. That will give you a fightning chance of getting to combat. Remeber, its not qaulity of troop that kills marine but number of dice. You can throw the most basic stuff at a marine and as long as you roll enough dice he will eventually fall.

Assuming he doesn't tote too many mid range weapons, rippers can do a good job at absorbing bolter fire and the like.

Zeldrin


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

The reason I don't take full units is because that's ALOT of models that I don't have.
I have 31 Hormies and 40 Termies. It would be a while before I could field two full squads of either.


----------



## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

try playing other people and as for the taran get someone else to deploy it


----------



## maxtangent (Jan 31, 2008)

The playing surface should be around 25% terrain. If that is too much, congratulate him on another 'brilliant victory' before you even set up.
If/when you look at buying more Gaunts, check out Devourer armed ones. With a 6" movement, they have an effective 24" range - more than enough to keep out of Rapid Fire range. With 32 DevGaunts poring out 64 re-roll to wound shots, he won't make every save. It's too bad I didn't have the cash handy when the Apocalypse sets were out. I wonder what 4 full troops of them can do.
'Nids excel at CC, but often their firepower gets underestimated.


----------



## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

My advice is to play different opponents

Playing against a shooty, landspeeder crazy SM army that is geared killing nids isn't a fair fight, especially if he pushes for as little terrain as possible. That's just stupid. 

You shouldn't have to buy dozens more gaunts to counter-tailor an army for him. That's not what WH40K is about. 

If it is all about the personal vendetta, you can beat him if you go to pure swarm or nidzilla, unfortunately this makes you shell out a lot of money, which I am not a fan of. My friend had a similar problem, he went Tyranids and we found out that it is very difficult to make them competitive unless you do a super specialized army (swarm/nidzilla) and who the hell wants to spend hundreds of bucks on the same unit type? Not me... that's just no fun.

Course, i'm Eldar, I like having one of everything, that's how we roll. There can be a lot of fun in a swarm, but it's most fun when you lay it out against an opponent who can't handle swarms . Also a lot of work to paint. Personally I would be more partial to Nidzilla, because I think the Carnifex model looks awesome, once again an army with a bunch of the same units just strikes me as unimaginative, and cheesy to some extent. 

I don't know -- it's a shame what we have to do to be competitive. Seriously though, try other opponents.


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

Green Knight said:


> try playing other people and as for the taran get someone else to deploy it


Local playgroup is rather low, while there are players at my local gameshop, it's a 10 minute drive and I don't want to run up there just to see if people want to play a game. (low on money, thus low on gas. ;P)

However, there is a new player starting Eldar and a new player starting SM, another starting IG within my group of nerds.
It's just that they still don't have many or any models, so I'll be waiting a bit.

But I'll try smaller point armies with as full broods as I can do, and try to employ a better list.

How about this for a 1500:

Flyrant

2 Dakkafexes

2 Units of 15 Hormies
2 Units of 20 Termies

3 Zoanthropes

2 Sniper Fexes

:/
I don't have enough models for a Nidzilla or for a swarm, shooty or otherwise.
Or I could drop the Termies and go for Genestealers, got 33 of them.

(I currently have two Fex', and one spare parts Fex that is a sniper fex. So for all intents and purposes, I have three Fex'. So to go Nidzilla I'd need to buy three more (or two and make another spare parts fex ><) and another Tyrant, or conversely to go swarm, I'd need another Battleforce or two. Even then I think I'd need more Gaunts boxes. ><
I put myself in a bad situation wanting to play a little of everything, because now I'm just halfway to either of the most used lists, and already what, 350-400 dollars in to the hobby?)

Ideas?


----------



## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I think Stealers are best against SM. As Eldar I've come to find that Banshees will whomp them hard. Stealers aren't great against IG because the rends are not nearly so useful against GEQs. 

The lictor is the guardsmen's worst nightmare, pops out, tears them up, sweeping advances, consolidates into cover where their save is improved by 2. Also rear armor hits against Leman Russes if he moves them by cover! That's a fun way to blow up a tank. I've seen templates splat entire squads of stealers, so keep everything spaced out and in cover, get guardsmen into melee, and watch em die.

Against Eldar i don't know what to tell you, a swarm army is useless against a skimmer force, Vypers & all their tanks can kite squads all around, moving 12" and firing or moving 24-36" to get into safety. Then there's Eldar-style anti-horde, 3x Warwalkers each with two scatter lasers and a Guide-Farseer. It's 24 ST6 SP6 shots that reroll to hit, every turn with 36" range. It'll mow nid swarms. You need sniperfexes to take out Falcons/Prisms/Waveserpents, and Dakkafexes to take out everything else. If it's a slow Eldar army then you are in luck.


----------



## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

Absolute035 said:


> I think Stealers are best against SM. As Eldar I've come to find that Banshees will whomp them hard. Stealers aren't great against IG because the rends are not nearly so useful against GEQs.
> 
> The lictor is the guardsmen's worst nightmare, pops out, tears them up, sweeping advances, consolidates into cover where their save is improved by 2. Also rear armor hits against Leman Russes if he moves them by cover! That's a fun way to blow up a tank. I've seen templates splat entire squads of stealers, so keep everything spaced out and in cover, get guardsmen into melee, and watch em die.
> 
> Against Eldar i don't know what to tell you, a swarm army is useless against a skimmer force, Vypers & all their tanks can kite squads all around, moving 12" and firing or moving 24-36" to get into safety. Then there's Eldar-style anti-horde, 3x Warwalkers each with two scatter lasers and a Guide-Farseer. It's 24 ST6 SP6 shots that reroll to hit, every turn with 36" range. It'll mow nid swarms. You need sniperfexes to take out Falcons/Prisms/Waveserpents, and Dakkafexes to take out everything else. If it's a slow Eldar army then you are in luck.


I'm hardly worried against Guard and Eldar.
I've faced down 3 Warwalkers and their bullshit scatter lasers, and I agree it hurt.
But this guy starting Eldar won't go for skimmer forces, maybe warwalkers, but mostly a walking army.
After a while he might go skimmer though, I never know with my friends.

Anti-Nid armies just suck though. *Shakes fist angrily at SM*


----------



## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Genestealers and Broodlords are just bullet magnets they are to deadly in combat so deadly that you can't let them get into combat I normally assign about 5 heavy bolters to make sure they are gunned down.


----------



## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Gaunt lists are weak. They are easy for an experienced player to dance around and destroy. They may have worked in the past, but in this edition of the rules, big bugs is the way to go.
In my experience, a "Godzilla" list (as it is sometimes known) is run best when supported by 200 or so pts. of (non-gaunt) 'nids that fill in the few holes missing from a good biggie list. Genestealers comprise the list's missing troops choice nicely.


----------



## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Gore Hunter said:


> Genestealers and Broodlords are just bullet magnets they are to deadly in combat so deadly that you can't let them get into combat I normally assign about 5 heavy bolters to make sure they are gunned down.


yes they might be bullet magnet but when they hit home they could almost single handedy win you the game esp when they infertrate


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

First off, drop the CC carnifex, they're a fire magnet that never can make up those points, and the possible 2+ save doesn't mean anything against Asscans(Curse you asscans!)

One thing you might try is setting each psychic power abled bug in your list with "psychic scream" or whatever it is that lowers morale. Marine morale isn't that great, and with what you have, he'd be rolling fours and under to keep them in line. To fight the terminators, genestealers are nice as they all rend and strike first. You might lose a few, but they should be able to wipe some meqs away.

But yeah, gearing a list specifically against one type of opponent is really not in the spirit of the game, it's sad, it's unsportsmenlike, but in all honesty he's only screwing himself. Since he only configures his list against bugs, maybe you know somebodies army you could borrow for a single game or such? 
Or get his exact list, if we know exactly what he's using, we can probably offer better advice.


----------



## Badblade (Jun 7, 2008)

*Swarm It! Swarm It Good!*

Lots of good feedback here Demeter. However, I will make my own brief comments:

1) I would be very cautious about having insufficient terrain. I have read somewhere that a game of 40K should include terrain that covers 25% of the field (easy to determine, just put all your terrain in a corner of the table, and make sure it takes up a full quadrant before you start placng it). If you don't have it, you're little bugs are as good as swatted. Stealers and gaunts depend on cover to survive round 1, especially against an army like Marines.

2) Make sure your CC units are big enough to get big bonuses on the combat results. Once those marines are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 (or more), those morale checks become pretty tough. IT sounds like you are winning your close combats... just need to break them and run them into the ground. I love outnumbering an enemy 5 to 1... get him down under 50%, and then watch his face when he realizes his Ld 9 or 10 probably isn't going to be enough...

3) Don't overspend on Stealers. Sure they rock, but they are expensive and squishy.One unit of 12 stealers can easily be a huge unit of tricked-out hormies.

My 2 cents.

Keep your eyes open for new opponents... one of your problems is that your marine friend knows exactly what he is fighting before he makes his list. With Marines being so versatile, that means he can really counter your strong points and exploit your weaknesses.


----------



## The Lord General (Jun 7, 2008)

If you play missions were he can't sit in a corner or on a board edge to win, you would probably do better. You can always comment that his tactical genius is that of a toilet servitor if he doesn't want to try anything different. 

My gaming group is of the mind, the more terrain, the better. It has helpped make me a better player. With lots of terrain, I can't just sit back and shot as guard. It makes the game alot more fun too.

Try asking him to play City fight. There are some nice missions in the book and strategems add more flavor to the game. This will also provide you with lots of terrain for battles. 

If you don't have any building/ruin terrain, you can always use various boxes and piles of books to represent buildings. 

Try playing using the nightfight rules. Even without terrain, you may frustrate him the first two turns as he fails spottng units. 

If you can't agree on terrain and placement of terrain, roll 2d6 to come up with the total number of terrrain pieces to use and alternate placing pieces. This is the fairest way to do it. It also lets you cover the middle of the board with terrain. We've found that 2d6+ the number of players to be a better number though, but he may not agree to that.

In anycase, you have a fun, diverse list and he has a list to counter yours, plus he sets the games up to his advantage. If he doesn't change things around, he probably won't do well against any other players.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Check this out - you'll both have to adapt to win these missions which should make it more fun for both of you. http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/rules-of-engagement/1/

Thanks to WarGamer for mentioning this ruleset earlier today. 

Katie D


----------



## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

I dunno if someone posted this but I'll say this anyway, spend the extra points and get without number for your gaunts, you won't regret it. another thing with the gaunts is break them into 8 gaunt broods, then you have a higher chance of one squad getting killed outright and re-spawning and also he can only fire on one squad with one squad so if he has a 10 man marine squad with 20 shots at half range and only 8 wounds to get then he's wasting a lot of shots

well, that's my 2 cents


----------

