# Undivided Daemon princes



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

As we all know chaos champions can become daemon princes by pleasing there patron god who elevate them to this rank, but what about undivided daemon princes? who turns them into a daemon prince? is the power of chaos in general or all of the four gods?


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

you mean undecided princes?


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, a follower of Chaos Undivided is unlikely to gain the specific benefits associated with each god (so ThatOtherGuy is right, in a way). That's why he doesn't turn into a half sorcerer-vulture, half axe-wielding maniacal horned beast, half transvestite, half pus-filled sack of rot upon his ascension; if he did, he'd be even more unstoppable than other Princes, and millions of noobs would all roll Chaos Undivided. Each individual god (especially Nurgle, who loves his children) would be sad that they have no followers to really call their own, and they'll have to resort to pranks and lame insults because they have no massive armies to throw at each other. Who wants that?

Then again, I'm not sure I've seen a Chaos Undivided Daemon Prince, or if I have, I didn't recognize it. I know Abaddon the Unsuccessful has a Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which gives him some of each god's power, but he's not a Prince.


----------



## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

To my knowledge there are some daemon princes of Undivided but they are also primarchs:

Lorgar and Perturabo are both daemon princes of undivided.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

revan4559 said:


> To my knowledge there are some daemon princes of Undivided but they are also primarchs:
> 
> Lorgar and Perturabo are both daemon princes of undivided.


Well in _The First Heretic_, Logar is described as being the favored Sons. So in that respect, I could see him getting benefits from all four powers.

As for Perturabo however, I just don't see him getting powers from all the four gods. I think he must have got them from a seperate god from within the warp. Or perhaps chaos undivided has its own essence from the four seperate powers.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't fully understand how Chaos Undivided daemons work. I thought that daemons existed only as certain emotions driven to extremes so how would an undivided daemon exist?

Like Malice. He is a God but he is Chaos collapsing in on itself. How is that an emotion? I thought the Gods only existed as emotions.
Can someone explain this to me because I dont see how Malice could exist since "Chaos fighting chaos" isn't an emotion.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I don't fully understand how Chaos Undivided daemons work. I thought that daemons existed only as certain emotions driven to extremes so how would an undivided daemon exist?
> 
> Like Malice. He is a God but he is Chaos collapsing in on itself. How is that an emotion? I thought the Gods only existed as emotions.
> Can someone explain this to me because I dont see how Malice could exist since "Chaos fighting chaos" isn't an emotion.


As far as I know he's been retconned, but I think his emotion would be more of rebellion.

The furies are the souls of followers who constantly switched chaos gos: Pus for nurgle, wait sex and drugs for slan, wait blood for khorn, wait tentacles for tzen. The beasts of the warp I always thought of them more as a combination of emotions.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

theres the story of Storm of Iron where the undivided Warsmith was turn DP.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

locustgate said:


> As far as I know he's been retconned, but I think his emotion would be more of rebellion.
> 
> The furies are the souls of followers who constantly switched chaos gos: Pus for nurgle, wait sex and drugs for slan, wait blood for khorn, wait tentacles for tzen. The beasts of the warp I always thought of them more as a combination of emotions.


okay that makes sense i guess. So if there is Malice who is a "rebel" I think it is safe to say that there is a God of some sort who "unites" Chaos. They could be rivals lol (but seriously I think there could be)

I always thought this would be a crazy theory: What if there actually was a Chaos Undivided God? Think about it. Necoho (apparently) is the God of atheism (pretty much) so why not there be a God that encompasss "all-Chaos religion" or simply all Chaos. His mark would literally be the 8 pointed star.
IDk I thought it would be cool :mrgreen:


----------



## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

as far as i know Malice represents disbelief, so lack of belief in gods and religion, but im not 100% sure


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I was sure Malice was Revenge, Payback, feeling enslaved and upset, ect.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Ferrus Manus said:


> as far as i know Malice represents disbelief, so lack of belief in gods and religion, but im not 100% sure





Warlock in Training said:


> I was sure Malice was Revenge, Payback, feeling enslaved and upset, ect.


Malice represents the part of Chaos that fights against itself. The internal struggle of Chaos.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> As for Perturabo however, I just don't see him getting powers from all the four gods. I think he must have got them from a seperate god from within the warp. Or perhaps chaos undivided has its own essence from the four seperate powers.





Warlock in Training said:


> theres the story of Storm of Iron where the undivided Warsmith was turn DP.


These are both good points. Both Perturabo and the "Warsmith" had that one victory that ascended them. I think its fair that we, for one have not seen all four gods actually give one individual their powers and let them ascend into daemonhood. We have Abaddon and Horus, and neither of those two got Daemonhood. In fact, I think thats the reason why Abaddon hasn't recieved the gift of Daemonhood. He belongs to too many deities. If he finally was claimed he'd be fucken ripped into shreds as the gods finally decided they wanted him for themselves. Especially that they are always fighting amongst themselves.

Furries for example are able to be created in the warp without a deity. So maybe its possible to be granted certain warp gifts... like daemonhood through a undivided "thing" of some sort. I think in False Gods, the chaos god that talks to Horus was undivided. Their must be several smaller gods in the warp to pledge themselves too that require so much less than the four great deities.


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> okay that makes sense i guess. So if there is Malice who is a "rebel" I think it is safe to say that there is a God of some sort who "unites" Chaos. They could be rivals lol (but seriously I think there could be)
> 
> I always thought this would be a crazy theory: What if there actually was a Chaos Undivided God? Think about it. Necoho (apparently) is the God of atheism (pretty much) so why not there be a God that encompasss "all-Chaos religion" or simply all Chaos. His mark would literally be the 8 pointed star.
> IDk I thought it would be cool :mrgreen:


Worshipers of Chaos Undivided see Chaos as one primordial, unstoppable force, and the four Chaos Gods are simply representations of that force; a pantheon, if you will, formed in the fabric of the Warp but not the source of its power. No single god deserves worship, and there is already a name for the "god" that unites all aspects of Chaos. It's called Chaos.

See, the more you think about anything related to Chaos, the more you start to understand why you must be insane to truly comprehend it.

As for a god that unites (or at least tries to tame) Chaos, some see the Emperor as such. Perhaps not in his current, mortal incarnation, but if he ever becomes a Chaos God in his own right.


----------



## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

Malice, or Malal, is the god that represents chaos vs. chaos. Nechoho is known as "The Doubter", and represents, basically, atheism. he offers nothing to his followers and in turn asks nothing of them. he represents doubt. he usually appears as a rich, laughing, plump old man. Zuvassin is the undoer, he constantly seeks to make sure every plan goes awry. he would seem to be the nemesis of Tzeentch. He usually appears as what the person who beholds them fears most, and he is always laughing. These are all renegade gods.

As for Undivided Daemon Princes, I would think that the Chaos Powers would agree on elevating him to the rank of Daemon Prince, or maybe he brings it upon himself somehow?


----------



## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

I guess if you were to think of it in terms of the Christian and Catholic religion, you have one god as three beings: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Since the 40k universe uses a wide variety of ideas from pop culture, religion, literature, etc. it would make sense to view the Chaos Gods in the same light as Christianity views their "Holy Trinity".

Chaos is one being if you will, one huge cocktail of negative human emotion. The 4 Chaos Gods are simply extentions of the more powerful individual emotions. The Gods came into being, and became so powerful due to the fact that the emotions they represent are stronger than the others, or better represent other minor emotions. Khorne is the Blood God, he represents violence, hatred, warfare, etc. The list could go on of all the emotions he represents, all related in one way or another.

That being said, a worshipper of Chaos Undivided worships all those emotions as one whole, not as 4 seperate parts. That worshipper would view Chaos as one being, a being of those 4 extentions or "gods" combined into a whole. This larger being would grant the gift of Daemonhood, giving a DP a mix of gifts. This would all be similiar to an individual deciding to simply worship 'God', and choose to ignore the 'father, son and holy ghost'. In his eyes, those 3 entities are minor compared to the God that they make up.

Sorry if that was completely confusing, one of those things you sort of understand, but cant really transfer from your mind to the keyboard.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This question has been asked many times before. I`ll just list the answers...

1: The prince was able to meld the various gifts given by multiple gods over time.

2: The DP obtained ascension via some arcane artifact or sorcerous spell of immortality.

3: He was elevated by a minor chaos deity unaffiliated with the four.

4: He was genuinely able to gain the favour of all four powers. 


There are probably other means, but these are quick and viable solutions to your query.


----------



## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> These are both good points. Both Perturabo and the "Warsmith" had that one victory that ascended them. I think its fair that we, for one have not seen all four gods actually give one individual their powers and let them ascend into daemonhood. We have Abaddon and Horus, and neither of those two got Daemonhood. In fact, I think thats the reason why Abaddon hasn't recieved the gift of Daemonhood. He belongs to too many deities. If he finally was claimed he'd be fucken ripped into shreds as the gods finally decided they wanted him for themselves. Especially that they are always fighting amongst themselves.
> 
> Furries for example are able to be created in the warp without a deity. So maybe its possible to be granted certain warp gifts... like daemonhood through a undivided "thing" of some sort. I think in False Gods, the chaos god that talks to Horus was undivided. Their must be several smaller gods in the warp to pledge themselves too that require so much less than the four great deities.


Abbadon has actually turned down ascending to Daemon Princedom each time it has been offered it to him by the chaos gods. Its because he wants to conquer the galaxy without having that much power. I'll look for it soon but there is a quote he says about Horus having all the power in the universe and had victory in his grasp but let it slip through his fingers because of his arrogance and confidence in the powers that he had at that point. Also Abbadon doesn't have the mark of undivided, he has the Mark of the Ascendant which is a mark that ALL 4 of the big powers have granted him power.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No mortal can decline a gift from the gods. If that were possible Chaos Spawn would not exist. 

Abaddon has received all four marks, but he has not received any gifts, most likely because the gods recognise his potential as a mortal warmaster.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

That makes sense about Abaddon though so I agree with Serpion.

And where are you all finding the names of these Lesser Gods? I assume I can find all of this info in the Daemons Codex? I would like to learn more about Chaos and the nature of the daemons that inhabit it.


----------



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Abbadon has actually turned down ascending to Daemon Princedom each time it has been offered it to him by the chaos gods. Its because he wants to conquer the galaxy without having that much power. I'll look for it soon but there is a quote he says about Horus having all the power in the universe and had victory in his grasp but let it slip through his fingers because of his arrogance and confidence in the powers that he had at that point. Also Abbadon doesn't have the mark of undivided, he has the Mark of the Ascendant which is a mark that ALL 4 of the big powers have granted him power.


"Horus was a fool, he had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip away"
-Abaddon the Despolier

I didn't know that, I always though that Abaddon wasn't a daemon prince because he hadn't killed enough people yet, which would explain why he wasn't as powerful as say...the primarchs. And I guess he wanted to take control of the imperium as a man, not a daemon.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The thing is though, we don't know for sure if he has been offered that gift. Its what is says in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. But it sounds more like filler fluff than anything.

Why the hell would the chaos gods ever grant Abaddon Daemonhood? So perhaps he could go run into the Eye of Terror and just sit his ass there like the traitor Primarchs? Yeah, I don't think so. I think the Chaos Gods are getting more out of him now, then they ever could if they ascended him to that rank.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah just look at the unknown Warsmith. He left his Iron Warriors to do "higher work" and left Honsou to clean up the mess. I think Abbaddon also sees himself being enslaved to Chaos if he ever becomes a DP. Not free to rein as he does now.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That is irrelevant. What a servant _wants_ means nothing to the gods, they reward or punish as they see fit. 

Abaddon is simply too useful to be squandered like that.


----------

