# The Single handed best 40K unit



## Word Bearer 81007 (Aug 5, 2012)

So I have been sitting around talking units, counter units, and independant character interaction with such units with a buddy of mine. Due to these conversations I thought about branching this out to the online community to get different aspects from different people. I don't know every codex perfectly so this will help narrow down things that I also have to watch out for on the table. So to start it I will give you my opinion first.

Loota's

simply I love/hate these damn things, just enough number's in size to let the little bastards live through a large template. There points aren't way off either and let's not even start on the fact that the damn guys pack a hell of a punch when shooting. Tie in the fact that the use of terrain to make up for the lack of armor, or even if you move a snap fire shot is not that big of a hit to your BS. when I think of the comparison to other units the Loota squad take the winning cake for me.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

IMHO, Sternguard. They're bad dudes and can take on a fair amount before they're out of the game. Plus, they can carry combi weapons with special issue ammo.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Oh look, this thread again.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Heh.

Doom Inna Can, for sheer overpowered lulz.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

teh bets unit evar is Paladans w/ Drago becase tehy RAEP EVERY1 an u canot kil tehm!!!!!

aslo dred nights becaus tehy r uber pownage



Ugh, I need to go take a shower after typing that.

Seriously, no one unit is an unstoppable force of nature. I can think of a hard counter for everything you can name within my own army, and most armies can claim something similar. Most amateur generals spam a single unit that they perceive to be highly successful but their list will always fall flat in front of a well-made balanced list, because there will be something in there that can easily mop the floor with whatever they have spammed and the spam army will have no defense against it.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The best unit in the game is the Aegis Defense Line with a Quad cannon.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

scscofield said:


> The best unit in the game is the Aegis Defense Line with a Quad cannon.


Oooo, good one.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Fortifications aren't actually units tho'

"Unlike units, fortifications are not found in codexes."

I'd go with Sternguard being the "best" simply on the basis of their flexibility to be pretty much what ever you need them to be.

Heaps of units do particular things better than Sternguard but few units can do so many things well as them.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It can be used by all codexes and provides the same thing to all of them.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Which really means it never provides the owner with an "edge", the enemy can always have exactly the same.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

:: shrugs :: That is what I consider 'best', something that has equal utility to all. Arguing about what unit has the biggest dick goes no where.


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## Word Bearer 81007 (Aug 5, 2012)

fair enough, maybe i should have been a little more clear. I'm not looking for the Uber-Demigod unit of the game. I've played long enough to realize that no single unit win a game but what I am looking more at is a honest look at units that stand out above the rest for sheer utility. With 6th edition and updated FAQ's there is tons of things that once were looked at as mediocre or flavor liked that may be more viable. Not looking for a dick comparing contest either really, just the opinion of other seasoned players who have put there armies through the tests and found what units have earned a place in any given game in there list.

As for sternguard they do and will always have there merit as being great additions to a marine list and play very well.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

i would say the tactical marine squad for sheer versitility - cost ratio


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## Tyreal Ardeus (Mar 28, 2012)

Particularly I would actually vote for simple Necron Warriors with attached Lord w/ Res Orb. In my humble opinion, Necrons are currently the most powerful race with the most powerful and versatile Troop choice in the game. 20 Warriors with a Lord and Res Orb gives them absolutely *retarded* survivability. 

I oftentimes call Necron Warrior Squads 'Halves'. Against most opponents and their weapons, there's a half chance of everything. Half chance to hit, half chance to wound, half will save themselves with armor, and half of the dead will get right back up after you kill them. 

Taking vehicles against Necron players that abuse warriors is almost a completely pointless gesture and a waste of points in 6th edition since they will be glanced away in a single volley, land raiders and flyers all.

Of course they don't do so hot in close combat, but they don't do bad either due to their large squad size and insane survivability. Two 20 man warriors squads with lords will dominate most decently sized point games with little difficulty.

That's my two cents. BTW I'm a marine player and nothing else.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you're looking for efficiency-for-points you'd be very hard pressed to beat the eponymous Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Especially when given Preferred Enemy.

If you want my favourite unit, I'd have to go with War Walkers with 6 Scatter Lasers. If you get first turn these guys can wipe out significant parts of your enemy's army turn 1 and 2.

If you want my "Most used" unit, it's the good old BA Assault Squad. 10 Men, 2 melta, Power Weapon and Melta Bombs (used to be Powerfist). Never leave home without 30 of these bad boys.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't see how you can say anything but vendetta.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

The best unit? In my opinion, is an Obliterator with the Mark of Tzeentch. a 2+/4+ and all those guns, 2 wounds, not a terrible point cost, AND deep strike. And did I mention all those guns?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I'd argue MoN is better than MoT on the Oblits. True, much of what the enemy will be shooting your Oblits with will be high enough S and AP that it ignores the bonuses of MoN...but it almost certainly won't be able to instant death your Oblit. Plus the Oblit is that much tougher against massed small arms fire, and for 2 points cheaper.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Vendettas, without doubt. They're undercosted, remarkably accurate and also have a nice "payload" of dudes to drop onto objectives to dick around with your opponent.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I personally think chosen are one of the best all around units in 40k. My selection is based on their incredible flexibility more than anything else. 3 attacks base, marine stats, and the ability to tailor with a large selection of ranged and close combat weapons.


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## Thecrash20 (May 13, 2012)

Termagants they can kill tanks, be meat shields and only cost 5 points .


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## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

how do termagants kill tanks exactly 
oh and the best unit is eldrad simply because of how much he adds to your army


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## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

seermaster said:


> how do termagants kill tanks exactly
> oh and the best unit is eldrad simply because of how much he adds to your army


He's talking about the adrenal gland/tervigon boosted termagants that charge your vehicles and hit them in their rear armour (usually 10) at strength 4, therefore being able to glance them to death. Its not the best tactic in the world, but at least in 6th its more viable than it was due to the greater ease of hitting vehicles in close combat.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

My vote is for TWC. They're stupid fast, hit stupid hard and quite survivable. I despise seeing them across the table from me.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Ah the inevitable acronym that no-one gets... had to google TWC and it still took me a bit to find: Thunder Wolf Cav for all those others wondering (because it takes just too long to type that out).

I would agree with many here that the single best unit is the humble sternguard; they are just so versatile that they can be used effectively for almost any role you want them to do: take out marines, hordes, MCs, tanks, DS, hold ground etc etc etc...

They certainly aren't the most powerful or the most broken though: to me the single most 'powerful' (alternately 'broken') unit in the game is easily the vendetta. Back when they weren't flyers they were immense with 3 TLLC on an AV12 front and side vehicle with a decent transport capacity for barely a handful more points then you would pay for a 3 lascannon heavy weapon (which loses a base if you hit it with a S6 Ap5 gun and will then likely run off the board from its failed Ld7 panic check).
THEN the vendetta became a flyer in a game where there are precious few skyfire weapons... most of which are S7 so tend to bounce off the AV12 armour anyway...

The difference between the 2 to me is that sternguard kill you without making you hate them, while playing against a vendetta just feels like swimming uphill: you might manage it, but its just no fun.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gonna have to go with Death Company Tycho. I can't honestly think of anything that can beat as hard as he does with only one hand. Come to think of it, I can't think of anyone else with one hand.

Midnight


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Tim/Steve said:


> Ah the inevitable acronym that no-one gets...


I got it. 

I go with Midnight too btw , when I first read the thread title I immediately thought of a unit that might only have one arm. Chaplain Elysius was the only one I knew of, now I know 2.

I guess a lot of Servitors only have one arm as well


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband

It can be an amazing CC unit or a decent shooty unit depending on how you kit it out.


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## Tyreal Ardeus (Mar 28, 2012)

Tim/Steve said:


> Ah the inevitable acronym that no-one gets... had to google TWC and it still took me a bit to find: Thunder Wolf Cav for all those others wondering (because it takes just too long to type that out).


Thank you, I had no idea what he was talking about and was too lazy to type it in. :laugh: I don't fight any Space Wolf players so I don't hear the acronym.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tyreal Ardeus said:


> Thank you, I had no idea what he was talking about and was too lazy to type it in. :laugh: I don't fight any Space Wolf players so I don't hear the acronym.


 
My apologies? I've seen it used pretty commonly, figured it was a well known acronym.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

I'll have to throw in Warp Spiders.

I had success with them in the 5th edition but now that their vehicle killing potential went up, I really do like them =) They can kill pretty much anything, they have a good survival rate and they (can) have Hit & Run.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Horus  clearly!


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## KahRyez (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm gonna have to throw my lot in with my faithful stromtroopers, spec ops allows them tactical flexibility and they can be kitted out to take on just about anything save terminators effectively, also hot-shot lasguns murder marines, which I approve of ^^.


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## Absolutraptor (Feb 18, 2012)

I think I'd go with Space Wolf: Wolf Guard. Huge weapon selection and can can mix power armor and terminator armor in the squad. A few shields for added protection on top of a landraider as a dedicated transport. That's pretty stout. Add any HQ choice and they get that much better.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Just for the LULZ option: Ursarkar E.Creed and Command squad( with Kell/Vox, maybe advisers). 4 orders a turn, but TACTICAL GENIUS (LR Demolishers applied close to your face - MWHAHAHA - Titans having scout is just blatant abuse)!!!! And he happens to give out his own order, that makes IG S4 on the charge (take dat orksies) and fearless, which ISNT a drawback any more. For such a little widdy character, his rules are boss . And his unit can be pretty deadly (Cheap pieplate, reserve denial, reserve boosting), and LD10, not Ld9.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Here's my top 10 list, based on experience (based on a combination of their cost effectiveness, power, and versatility):

10. Long Fangs (2nd best heavy weapons team in the game)

9. Tervigon (Even with force weapon spam out there, a monstrous creature troop choice that spews more troops for only 160 points! Gotta love it!)

8. Grey Knight Purifiers (possibly the most versatile unit in the game)

7. Necron Warriors (ditto)

6. Shoota boyz (It's unbelievable how much they get for 6 points)

5. IG Special Weapons Teams (a scoring unit with your choice of 3 special guns for about 50-60 points?! Yes please!)

4. Saint Celestine (WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!!!!)

3. Ork Big Gunz Kannons teams (Ridiculously cheap and versatile with the new artillery rules. Toughness 7 grots with kannons! Facing a lot of high strength shooting? Put the grots in front so they get hit first. Cheap re-rolls to hit is just gravy.)

2. Vendetta (Best flyer in the game. Combine with special weapons teams for extra fun.)

1. Marbo (man, Imperial Guard has it good)

...


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Though not a 'unit' per se, but a dedicated transport, the Dark Eldar Venom gets my vote. I like to run 9 of them in a 2000 points list, and turn to them for 75% of my anti-infantry killing power. Unfortunately, Dark Eldar don't have any good anti-tank and buckets of options for anti-infantry which means the Venom would be 1000% better in any other army than DE. But that doesn't make it any worse.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Surprised people haven't said Annihilation Barge. 90pts for around 6 S7 Shots a turn. Only things out of target is AV13-14. Anything else is fair game, and with enough Gauss or Scarabs, that isn't an issue. AV13 is brilliant for this level - it is what a Predator wishes it could be. Even the new Predator Cannon from Betrayal doesn't equal it, but thanks to its bulk and permanent AV13 on the front it's adequate.

Also, Night Scythes, for a similar reason, but they only work on Turn 2 Minimum, are zooming Flyers limiting their ability to target enemy units, etc. The fact they are "free" (require a 65pt Warrior unit Tax) and don't take a Slot makes them also decent. Their lack of armour is currently fine; that is until we start getting more and more AA weaponry available without being forced to ally with Guard or forced to use Refluffed Imperial Fortifications.

Of a similar note is the Imperial Vulture and Vendetta - the Vendetta is primarily AA and AT; Three TL Lascannons do that for you. However, the Vulture is awesome; it can come in AT, AA, and AI versions; my favourite ability is the TL Punishers - that gives it the ability to target AA - 20 TL S5 Shots allows it to pretty much glance or Penetrate AV10-11 Flyers to death, at least forcing them to Dive. AT is similar; for Light transports, you have BS4 thanks to Strafing Run; BS4 TL with 20 S5 Shots. Wrecks through light vehicles and squadrons. As for AI; well the same again. Sure, the lack of AP hurts slightly; but just launch it at units in cover, so you lose nothing. It's also excellent at taking down Quad Guns for that reason. They can also take a 5pt upgrade for Acute Senses; fancy popping into the side/rear of a Leman Russ/Artillery battery.

Looking at the HH Betrayal 30K List, it's a toss up between a Quad Gun Battery; that's 12 S5 Barrage Blasts able to hide in terrain but use the Ballistic Skill of another Spotter (take one of the Centurion upgrades for the Nuncio, and it's BS5), with a -1 to Pinning Tests is causes. That's 180 pts for the battery, they're an elites choice, of which you have 4 slots as opposed to 3; the Elites choices can be fairly uncluttered, and there's a distinct lack of vehicles in the list that cannot be dealt with by other vehicles.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Though not a 'unit' per se, but a dedicated transport, the Dark Eldar Venom gets my vote. I like to run 9 of them in a 2000 points list, and turn to them for 75% of my anti-infantry killing power. Unfortunately, Dark Eldar don't have any good anti-tank and buckets of options for anti-infantry which means the Venom would be 1000% better in any other army than DE. But that doesn't make it any worse.


That would be #11 in my best unit list, specifically when used with scoring units like Wracks (thanks to Haemunculi) w/liquifier guns, or kabalite warriors with a blaster. Dirt cheap and incredibly effective.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Saint celestein
The bitch won't die
150 odd points
2+/4++
jumppack
Heavy flamer
Power sword
I7
The bitch won't die


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Unfortunately, Dark Eldar don't have any good anti-tank and buckets of options for anti-infantry which means the Venom would be 1000% better in any other army than DE. But that doesn't make it any worse.


Lol, wat?

Blaster--18" Assault STR 8 Lance---Each shot will score .22 Penetrates against AV 12+
Dark Lance-- 36" Heavy STR 8 Lance---Each shot will score .22 Penetrates against AV 12+; comes stock on Ravagers, Raiders, and Razorwing Jetfighters.
Haywire Blaster--24" Assault STR 4 Haywire; Can get a twin-linked one on a Talos Pain Engine
Haywire Grenades--Haywire!-- One Grenade will Glance/Pen .333/.11 against any vehicle that has moved.
Heat Lance-- 18" Assault STR 6 Melta Lance; Can get a Twin-Linked one on a Talos Pain Engine
Void Lance-- 36" Heavy STR 9 Lance
Void Mine-- 36" Assault STR 9 Lance

These are all on very mobile weapons platforms. If you take Eldar allies, you can effectively twin-link a Ravager every turn. Take Eldrad and you can do many, many things.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Blaster Heavy Unit; Must get to within Spitting distance where Bolter Fire can take it down; hell it can even be assaulted. 

Dark Lance; overcosted unless on a ravager.

Haywire Blaster; limited access shares slot with Ravager, rapidly adds to the already high cost of the Engines.

Haywire Grenades; assaulters are weak these days and you have 3 delivery systems- wyches/bloodbrides, big muties, and the incubi - none of which are either resilient, or cheap enough, or capable enough at dedicated AT roles; and even if they can be thrown (cant remember if they can); its not even spitting distance, its snowballing distance.

Heat lance; ooh S6; got to get within assault range to get Melta. That isn't normally a problem, but when you've still got to roll a 7+ (only a little more tha. 50%) to penetrate a Chimera's front armour, that hurts.

Void Raven Weapons; suffers from not having a model syndrome, while it also suffers from not being available turn1, limited turning, it is extremely weakly armoured meaning that anything remotely s7 and interceptor flavoured will eat it for tea. It also cockblocks ravager selection.

Armour comes in three flavours these days; Either cheap walls/spammed transport AV12+, Flyer or Massed Heavy (Land Raider etc); DEldar can only really deal with Massed Heavy without gimping strengths elsewhere.


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## VKhaun (Nov 30, 2012)

I literally just walked away from the DE codex and sat down to find this thread going to this nonsense lol... The army is covered in default free weapons on dirt cheap transports that are Str8 and treat all armour as 12 or less, and anyone shooting at this weapon with a nice range, has their own range reduced by 6"... and the units FIRING the weapon all have night vision... Plus all the normal options like weapons on other vehicles, short range stuff, and heavy weapons.

lol DE have no good anti tank...
Thanks for the laugh guys.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

VKhaun said:


> I literally just walked away from the DE codex and sat down to find this thread going to this nonsense lol... The army is covered in default free weapons on dirt cheap transports that are Str8 and treat all armour as 12 or less, and anyone shooting at this weapon with a nice range, has their own range reduced by 6"... and the units FIRING the weapon all have night vision... Plus all the normal options like weapons on other vehicles, short range stuff, and heavy weapons.
> 
> lol DE have no good anti tank...
> Thanks for the laugh guys.


If you think almost twice the cost of a Rhino for 1 dark lance mounted on a papermache tank or the short ranged blasters (which not only is worse than melta for tank smashing but also much more expensive and comes in more limited numbers) is "Da bezt evah!", then yeah DE are awesome.

But if you have actually played the army you would know that pretty much all AT weapons not mounted on a Ravager are overpriced and only really worth anything when brought in large numbers (especially important considering how squishy the DE are). So yeah, DE are actually somewhat lacking in the AT department. Infantry however, those we can dakka to hell and back.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Blaster Heavy Unit; Must get to within Spitting distance where Bolter Fire can take it down; hell it can even be assaulted.


There is an 8 point difference between a full squad of blaster born without a transport and a full squad of Melta Vets without a transport. Cut the blaster born down to three, and there is a 19 point difference in favor of the Blaster Born squad. Melta-guns cannot even shoot outside of 18" when moving. Blasters have an 24" range. Melta-guns are not functionally different from Blasters outside 6" except for being AP1. If it's any consolation, units in open top vehicles can overwatch



Vaz said:


> Dark Lance; overcosted unless on a ravager.


Notwithstanding the fact that the Raider is over priced, Dark Lances come on vehicles that you would probably take anyway. If we look at the cost of Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Teams with Lascannons, you might conclude that the Ravager is at least well priced, possibly underpriced. That qualifies as good.



Vaz said:


> Haywire Blaster; limited access shares slot with Ravager, rapidly adds to the already high cost of the Engines.


A Haywire Blaster on a Talos shares a slot with Ravagers sure. Scourges do not. Whether or not Scourges are good is a different matter. On a side note, I hardly think that reasonably tooled out Pain Engine qualifies as "bad". There are pretty good at wrecking just about anything (including vehicles), they just have movement problems. 



Vaz said:


> Haywire Grenades; assaulters are weak these days and you have 3 delivery systems- wyches/bloodbrides, big muties, and the incubi - none of which are either resilient, or cheap enough, or capable enough at dedicated AT roles; and even if they can be thrown (cant remember if they can); its not even spitting distance, its snowballing distance.


Only on Blood Brides and Wyches. A 5 model unit of Wyches with haywire grenades in a Venom with Dual Cannons costs the same as 5 Kabalites with a Blaster. They can be thrown. You can also use them to tar pit a unit as the game dictates. They are cheaper than naked Demovets and you should get something like 3.333 Glances/Pens against a stationary target, not including the thrown grenade.

On a side note, Beast Masters aren't exactly bad at popping tanks either. Sure, they have to march up the board. I never thought that up to 40 STR 4 / 24 STR 3 Rending attacks on the charge was especially bad @ 228 points. You can even take Baron and do wacky things.



Vaz said:


> Heat lance; ooh S6; got to get within assault range to get Melta. That isn't normally a problem, but when you've still got to roll a 7+ (only a little more tha. 50%) to penetrate a Chimera's front armour, that hurts.


Almost 60%. Your point is well taken but because you would usually take Heat Lances on Reavers, it's a null point. Their effective melta-range is 21" which is decidedly better than 12". You should probably be able to hit the side of a Chimera, move back, and continue to harass--provided that the Reaver survive that long. Personally, I don't think that 72% (AV 11) or 89% (AV 10) for a pen with all that extra range is especially bad. Not multi-melta good, but not bad.

Scourges and Talos Pain Engines can also take Heat Lances. Just saying that you can.



Vaz said:


> Void Raven Weapons; suffers from not having a model syndrome, while it also suffers from not being available turn1, limited turning, it is extremely weakly armoured meaning that anything remotely s7 and interceptor flavoured will eat it for tea. It also cockblocks ravager selection.


Not having a model is not relevant to this conversation. Since you would usually take Flicker Fields on any Dark Eldar flyer, I find a a difference of .20 penetrating hits per turn (Void Raven vs. AV 12 Flyer) from a BS 4 Quad Gun uncompelling. Against an Icarus Defense Laser, the Void Raven is actually more survivable than an AV 12 flyer that does not evade. You can also fly behind a ruin and get a 4+ cover save.

Nothing to say about cockblocking the Ravager because it is true. It's also way overcosted for what it is supposed to do (launch missiles and rain death). If only Implosion Missiles were cheaper....



Vaz said:


> Armour comes in three flavours these days; Either cheap walls/spammed transport AV12+, Flyer or Massed Heavy (Land Raider etc); DEldar can only really deal with Massed Heavy without gimping strengths elsewhere.


That was never the point. It was stated that Dark Eldar do not have access to good anti-tank. Clearly, there are some good options. Are they the end-all-be-all of anti-armor? No. They tend to have problems with high armor saturation but that does not mean that their choices are bad. When the average 1500 point list has 21+ Dark Light weapons you can probably conclude that the perceived need for redundancy was what was driving the trend. One could also conclude that has more to do with the "squishiness" of the Dark Eldar than quality of their weapons.

As regards walls, they can be taken down by Haywire spam, even if an opponent hides behind an ADL. Personally, I've always found it easy to move to one side of a wall/spammed transport army and gut it from right to left. It's probable that my opponents aren't top tier and they do not know how to maneuver. Problems with Air-Cav are hardly limited to Dark Eldar.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Saint celestein
> The bitch won't die
> 150 odd points
> 2+/4++
> ...


More like about the cost of two standard Chimeras and a vox caster... even better than you thought


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## Madden (Jan 22, 2012)

The best for me is a unit of 4 flamers (daemons) DS is there down side but 4 flamers wounding on 4's no cover or armour plus can glance tanks as well all for the cheap cost of around 100 pts, there also not bad at staying alive marine toughness and an invun with a couple of wounds oh there also jump troops! I love them and take 3 units of them (they also have an assault 3 shooting attack if out of flamer range). 
Now there a bad a&@ unit.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Madden said:


> The best for me is a unit of 4 flamers (daemons) DS is there down side but 4 flamers wounding on 4's no cover or armour plus can glance tanks as well all for the cheap cost of around 100 pts, there also not bad at staying alive marine toughness and an invun with a couple of wounds oh there also jump troops! I love them and take 3 units of them (they also have an assault 3 shooting attack if out of flamer range).
> Now there a bad a&@ unit.


We can all agree that Flamers are pretty boss. A unit of four can destroy just about anything and assaulting them.....Jesus....


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

LTKage said:


> Lol, wat?
> 
> Blaster--18" Assault STR 8 Lance---Each shot will score .22 Penetrates against AV 12+
> Dark Lance-- 36" Heavy STR 8 Lance---Each shot will score .22 Penetrates against AV 12+; comes stock on Ravagers, Raiders, and Razorwing Jetfighters.
> ...


Doesn't matter how great the weapon is if the platform it's mounted on is ineffectual, even disregarding how they're mostly slightly overpriced.

-Haywire blaster: really not a great weapon unless it's on a fast platform. There is no fast platform to put them on except for jetbikes and if you put AT weapons on jetbikes you're doing it wrong.

-Scourges with any weapon: you never get a specialized squad, if you want AT weapons in them you'll be forced to take half of the squad as anti-infantry. Coupled with their slightly insane points cost, I'd point and laugh out anyone who showed up to a game with these turds.

-Talos/ Cronos pretty much got extincted by 6th. Talos still works but it still uses a heavy slot which is not a good compromise as taking one means NOT taking something that is better at it's job.

-Void lance / mine are on the void raven, an overpriced flyer that isn't any better at AT than a Ravager. And it's a heavy support choice, which is another wasted slot. If it was fast attack it would be plausible.

-You should keep raiders at the bare minimum points (+/- the most effective wargear) as it won't be doing that much shooting and when it does, 1 dark lance is not going to make an impact.

-Blasters on trueborn and ravagers is what is considered "great" in a DE army. However, in any other army except maybe Orks and Nids, they would be considered uninteresting choices.

-Since 6th, haywire grenades on Wyches is actually a good choice, but it's still more than any other army would pay for a guaranteed tank kill, and they'll often die without doing anything, and if they don't they'll die ONCE they do anything.



Thus, my point stands, comparatively, DE is not great at AT at all - and the few choices we do have are forced on us out of the sheer design idiocy and rubbishness of non-heavy, non-elite AT possibilities like Scourges, jetbikes and talos.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I think what we're seeing here is a difference between 'theoryhammer' and 'real experience'. 

If you look at the Dark Eldar on paper, they indeed seem incredibly deadly and effective. When you start playing them in real life, however, you find out that they die very easily. Those units can indeed 'potentially' do an incredible amount of damage, but the truth is that unless you take a very large number of units, they aren't going to get enough units close enough to quickly wipe the enemy out.

Of course, armies like the Imperial Guard and Orks die easily as well, but unlike the DE, the IG and Orks are cheap. Losing a dozen guys here and there doesn't mean much in IG and Orks, but it can mean the game when using DE. I mainly play Orks, and beating the Dark Eldar in a battle of attrition is usually pretty easy. 

I'm not saying that Dark Eldar are a bad army, but they're an incredibly RISKY army to use. You usually have a considerable amount of points tied up in smallish infantry units, transported in 10/10/10 armor vehicles.

Where the Dark Eldar really shine is against the smaller, more elite armies. There they can swarm the enemies with more units than they can handle with 1-2 turns of shooting.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

One of the first armies I played against 6th edition was a full-fledged Leaf-blower dug into some ruins. I took a mix between a Kabal and a Wyche Cult and utterly destroyed that parking lot through a combination of mobility and carefully planned multi-assaults. We have had very different experiences that are the product of different levels of competitiveness--I will assume that my local gaming environment is less competitive. So with that in mind, lets agree to disagree.

mynameisgrax, you are correct that DE are a risky army that tends to attract risk loving players. I am curious to see what list you were using. I have only played Orks 1v1 in an annihilation game, which was pretty hard, so my experience there is fairly limited. Could you PM me the list? Thanks.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Wow there is a lot of dick measuring in this thread.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

And how deep is your cunt, Jojo? Did you specifically choose to name yourself after the ultimate in preteen Jailbait? I'm intrigued, I really am.

LTKage; I do so enjoy a good anecdote. Anyway; have you ever heard "the more moving pieces, the potential to go wrong"? Well apply that to any tactic; as soon as you have to say "if if if" at any part, you start again. That has been part of my practise in regards to tactics; I don't say "if I roll x result, I can then do this or that", or "if my enemy does x, I can do y or z"; you force your opponent into those positions where they have no choice but to do whatever you want them to; it is why GK, and Necrons are top tier, and when Guard/Wolves ally, they join them; because they can force x and y. Dark Eldar can't; Eldar can't. Tau would be able to if they actually had some decent, scoring heavy armoured assaulters or ones able to take down enemies. Plus, they have a 6(?) year old dex which everyone knows every trick in the book in how to counter.

In regards to what is the most powerful unit; I hate the argument because it forces you to look at a unit in a vacuum; it is that which makes a unit of 30 Stormboyz with their 150 attacks on the charge seem decent.

I will also, however put out that a Land Raider Spartan is among the best units in the game; immune to melta, 5 hull points, 4 TL lascannons and AV15 on the front, increasing to 16 versus blasts.

As for what else is good; A thunderfire cannon. Its only weakness is an inability to take 3 in a battery.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

lol are you really that butthurt, Vaz? I already got a tisk tisk from a moderator. Maybe you should follow his advice. "If you don't like something ignore it". Where the hell did you get preteen jailbait from? Freudian slip?

Anyways, to keep this post "on topic" I'd have to say that Sly Marbo could be considered one of the best units if you take into account his cost, his ability to come in anywhere without scatter, and his demo charge he can drop and erase much more harder and more expensive squads. Sure, he gives up a kill point, but that's only in one out of the six different games.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

People need to stop taking things too seriously here I think...Let's not make this wonderful place another dakka or warnseer please, for the love of God...

Anyway, moving on...

I can only really speak from a IG point of view, but the Aegis Defence Line is probably one of the best 'units' for the Guard right now. It's ability to grant Leman Russ's, Manticores etc a 3+ cover save with camo netting amongst other things is not to be sneered at. It's a simple 50pt structure that has given numerous IG units more power and ability, so it wins the award for 'best unit' in my eyes. 

Marbo is also a cool one. Amazing how 65pts can generate so much fear and confusion.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

I didn't think of the aegis as a unit, but I would have to agree with you that a 24" 4+ cover save for 50 pts is a very good investment


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

My plastic space men are better than your plastic space men.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Inquisitorial Warband.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Vaz said:


> LTKage; I do so enjoy a good anecdote.


I am so glad you do too Vaz, especially because there is nothing that even closely resembles a credible empirical study of Warhammer 40,000 elements, let alone a meta-analysis of aforementioned elements.



Vaz said:


> Anyway; have you ever heard "the more moving pieces, the potential to go wrong"? Well apply that to any tactic; as soon as you have to say "if if if" at any part, you start again.... it is why GK, and Necrons are top tier, and when Guard/Wolves ally, they join them; because they can force x and y. Dark Eldar can't; Eldar can't. Tau would be able to...


Seeing as that the initial phrase is not a complete one, no, but I get your drift. I am not sure how that applies to the statement _Dark Eldar do not have good anti-tank_ or what I am supposed to take away from a tactical exercise that, according to you, is not applicable to Dark Eldar armies...unless you are trying to sell me on another army.




Vaz said:


> And how deep is your cunt, Jojo? Did you specifically choose to name yourself after the ultimate in preteen Jailbait? I'm intrigued, I really am.


Clearly, that Bonding Knife merit badge is well deserved.



Personally, I think that Flamers are the best unit in the game considering what they do and how they are priced. Considering that they are competing with deep striking melee units, that they are multi-wound models with eternal warrior, and are extremely difficult to assault---I would be hard pressed not to take them if Daemons were Allies of Convenience with Dark Eldar.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm unable to follow this as Vaz is on my ignore list but the quotes are as "funny" as ever.

Just an FYI in case someone drags me into this.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

You're missing out, MetalHand

@Necrosis, How are the inquisitorial Squad good? Idk anything about them


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Children, play nice.


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