# Kayvaan Shrike VS Kharn the Betrayer



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Sorry to add another VS thread to the forum, but my friend and I have been having this debate for far to long. 

Who would win in a fight, Khornes favorite mortal champion, Kharn the Betrayer, or the Raven Guards Shadow Captain, Kayvaan Shrike? 

Kharn; http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khârn

Shrike; http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Shrike

This is a close combat battle, Kharn will not have his plasma pistol.

I personally believe that Kharn would win this fight. Shrike has the jump pack and would have that advantage, but I really think that Kharn has the combat experience to know how to take down little birdies like Shrike. 

Your thoughts?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

A poll would have been logical.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Kharn would win, he has the experience and if Khorne allows it he's basically immortal


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Kharn would kill Shrike and everything around him that moves.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i think Shrike would sneak up on him and kill him before he knew he was there. it's what he does best you know.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

In a straight up, close combat fight there is very little that can threaten Kharn IMHO. Now if Shrike decided to be he's usual sneaky self, then I think he stands a pretty good shot, but in the scenario you described Kharn wins 9 times out of 10.


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## Lemanruss27 (Feb 16, 2012)

Kharn FTW:biggrin:


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Ah, another one of these vs threads. I'd been wondering why there weren't any of these lately...

But as much as I want to route for the badass that is Shrike, it seems that the situation that you described above would see Khârn emerge on top.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Depends on the situation. If shrike gets the advantage of surprise plus a jump pack, then no contest. Otherwise Kharn seeing as he's virtually immortal.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Okay, I added a poll. By the looks of things it is already determined that Kharn would win.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

Not to change the topic of this thread, but since Khran seems to have won this one, I'll ask. Does anyone think there are any Independent Characters that could beat Kharn in CC? By this I mean as presented above, straight up fight, with no outside intervention. The two characters would meet face to face in the middle of a battlefield. Please no dead people or Primarchs. As in "Well Corax could take him" or "If Abe Lincoln had an ax on hand..." etc, etc. (Note: This is a fluff based question, not "In a game of 40k......")


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Aside from a primarch, lucius or abaddon, no Astartes could challenge him. Maybe Dante or Grimnar might give him a run for his money, but the blessing of the Blood God is a big boost.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Aside from a primarch, lucius or abaddon, no Astartes could challenge him. Maybe Dante or Grimnar might give him a run for his money, but the blessing of the Blood God is a big boost.


Pretty sure the Sanguinor could also take Kharn along with the current Papa-Smurf and Draigo. Kharn vs Shrike in my opinion would likely to be Kharn, as in terms of fluff he is older and more experienced and in game terms Kharn is stronger on the charge (5-6 Strength 5 power weapon attacks at init 6, hitting on 2's wounding on 3's though Shrike does have a 4+ invuln compared to Kharn's 5+).


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Fluffwise Papasmurf would get arseraped as he's no combat champion. Sure he's got his fatass armour and fists, but Kharn is the champion of the God of martial combat, and has been since the Heresy. Ergo, aside from Ward having a major fanboy attack, I don't think that ol' smurfy stands a chance. Tabletop is another matter entirely.

And I'm not even going to start on Draigo...


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

the short story... i believe it was called "the weakness of others", showed kharn, he was the main protagonist, he stated the only person he regretted killing was Sigismund, so he would probably win.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Sigismund? as in The Emperor's Champion, Chapter Master of the Black Templars Sigismund? I thought his death was a huge question mark, in what book was this short story in?


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

Kharn would beat Shrike and then turn his skin into a winter coat. Kharn is just the better face to face fighter.

I recon the only astartes that would stand a chance against kharn (bar abbadon and lucius) would be Lysander, Grimnar, Dragio and Ragnar Blackmane.

Now reasons: 

Lysander has got experience (he is a first company captain after all) and an unbelieveable drive to kill chaos

Grimnar: hes a chapter master and a spacewolf a pretty deadly combination

Dragio: He bitch slaps a primarch! and a daemon prince at that 

Ragnar: I dont have much of a reason here just think it would be a close fight is all


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I might agree with you on Lysander were it not for his slow weapon choice. He wouldn't be fast enough to take Kharn. 

Draigo, ugh. I hate him. I play Knights and I hate him. If Kharn and Draigo ever met incombat, Khorne would over power Kharn by so much that Draigo would piss his pants. I'd have to imagine that Khorne would spectate that fight and not allow Kharn to lose. Khorne not involved, Kharn would probably lose. 


How about Marneus Calgar? He has the combat experience and strategy. But perhaps he simply lacks the combative abilities. I'm not too fond of his fluff.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Draigo wouldn't win simply because he's really not that badass. The Gods have cursed him by allowing him to survive in the Warp, merely because it amuses them to see his efforts repeatedly undone. They could crush him in an instant. Therefore, the same would apply to him fighting Kharn, as Khorne simply would just favour his champion.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Fight Kharn? Oh, Vect could take him down, I think, purely on basis of speed and mastery of combat.

I don't think that Draigo could actually take him on - Kharn's a pure killing machine, and since Draigo's a psyker Kharn would fight all the harder (Khorne's backing him up quite significantly here). This is in the materium, btw - in the Warp I'm not sure if anything could take Draigo on, purely because nothing in the Warp can oppose the Chaos Gods.

I don't know what kind of effects having a God's favour withdrawn has on you, but Abaddon vs. Kharn would likely go badly for Abaddon. I mean, Skarbrand pissed off Khorne and got his wings mangled and was set ablaze, landing hard enough to create a valley. I'm sure Khorne can think of something suitably nasty for Abaddon.

Doombreed could take Kharn, but whoever lost would be resurrected by Khorne anyway, so it's a moot point.

Since Kharn's a mean lean killing machine with skills, I think that Lucius could take him as he's supposed to be one of the best one-on-one fighters in existence - Lucius is described as better than Kharn in his entry in the Codex - '...*so skilled is Kharn* with Gorechild...' compared to '*Lucius is immensely skilled* with his chosen weapons, an ornate sabre and a writhing chaos whip'. If Lucius dies, another, larger scale fight happens as Slaanesh 'sticks his talon down [Khorne's] throat, or some other orifice' to reclaim Lucius' soul.

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

And there we have the whole Khorne vs Slaanesh fight/rivalry/whatever.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

For Dragio couldnt the same be said for Nurgle to just make Mortarion and just give him the power to make him win? I know khorne is god of war and everything but still a gods a god. But i see the point of the curses but the fact hes defeated a shed load of daemons should show hes an able fighter? (I dont mean to sound a fanboy im just looking at the fluff i have no ties to grey knights at all)

As for Lysander he may be slow but if he makes contact he is going to make Kharn hurt. Plus he has a sheild which can make him even more durable than he already is.

Marneus Calgar chould but i feel hes more of a strategist than a worrior however able a worrior he may be. I reckon he might pull an arm off Kharn which really pisses him off and then decapitates Calgar and uses his skull as a cup for a nice beer to congradulate himself... lol


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Now, I know this is probably a stupid idea, and I am so out of date with fluff that I couldn't possibly stake any points on this. But, could Ahriman take him? 

I mean yes this dude is angry against psykers, but he hates everyone, and yeah kharn was raised from the dead by Khorne or something, but Ahriman was saved from Magnus by Tzeentch, so he obviously has plans for him, and unless those plans were already realised, would Tzeentch let him lose? Now no matter how much battle experience buys you, knowledge of the dark arts directly affects your psychic prowess. Like I said I have no kind of real sourcing to back up the effectiveness of Ahriman and maybe I am not giving Kharn nearly enough credit. 

But the only source I have to go on is "A Thousand Sons" where a bunch of sorcerors used powers that totally butchering Space Wolves, untill you know, the backfire element and the "Russ" factor. But I am pretty certain that Ahriman will have neither of these problems when facing Kharn. 

Yes maybe being Khorne's chosen one might give a certain, dampening effect on psychic powers, but 10,000 years (Yes I know not literally or acuratly given the "warp" effect on time) of gathering knowledge and increasing your power must have some kind of, bonuses. And I am sure the foresight would come in a little handy in hand to hand combat, given the amount of warp energy centered around these two individuals that should also (hopefully) give Ahriman the edge. 

(Thousand Son Fanboy powers activated)


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Someone said that the original Emperor's Champion was killed by Kharn? I'm a fan of both so I'd like to know how this happened. All I've ever read about Sigismund was that he was considered to be one of if not the best swordsman in the Astartes. The other thing is once Dorn gave him the go ahead, he kicked everyone's ass he faced at the seige of Terra. I always wondered what happened to him as his death story I haven't found. 

As for the topic of the post, Shrike taking Kharn is highly improbable. Kharn is way to much for anyone but guys like Kaldor Draigo or Hector Rex.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Hahaha, I love how this has turned into Kharn Vs the world. I guess my friend and I have seriously underestimated who Kharn was. 

How exactly would Kharn stack up against something bigger than he was? Say the Swarmlord? The Swarmlord is quite a combatant, he is afterall given a 4+ invul for his combative skill. This could just be a stupid match up but you guys are really selling Kharn as one of the ultimate badasses.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

Didn't mean to take over the thread SoL... Sorry about that. 

That being said, here's what I think:

Lysander is an amazing warrior, and against anyone else, I would say he would have a solid shot. But Kharn has literally killed people like him before, on Terra, Thousands of Years ago, and has since gained even more experiance an favor with Khrone. Because of that, I don't think he really has a shot. Badass yes, Kharn killer, no.

Ahriman is an interesting. I would have to think that really comes down to a battle of wills between Khrone and Tzeentch. Honestly, I don't think Tzeentch would allow this battle to happen since he seems to have plans for Ahriman. That being said, no matter how good of a psyker Ahriman may be, Kharn isn't effected by psykers generally speaking (except to become even angrier since they are an affront to his God). Additionally he is far and beyond a better CC fighter than Ahriman. I think that best case scenario for Ahriman here is he opens the webway and runs away.

Lucius is a good candidate I think. He is an amazing CC fighter, and even if he loses, he always comes back. My only question is that while he is supposed to be one of the best CC fighters around, why has he lost so many times? To my knowledge, Kharn has only truly lost a CC combat once. Lucius has lost hundreds of times to all sorts of warriors, hence his armor. While this does give him vast amounts of experience, at best it only puts him on par with Kharn experience wise I think. Still though, I have to give him a shot if for no other reason than he actually thinks about what he doing and has a higher skill level with his weapon as per the current codex. 

Swarmlord is an MC, and it would be hard for Kharn to kill it alone. I have no idea whether or not he has fought something that big by himself before, so I’ll have to differ to everyone else here for that one. 

Oh and Doombreed would definitely win. As the oldest Daemon Prince, I can’t imagine anything really having a shot at killing him in CC other than a C’tan (not this Shard BS the Necrons have now, but a real one)

I’m surprised no one brought up the Avatar of Khaine. I know that they have fallen to Primarchs before, but I’m not sure if a mortal* has killed one alone before in CC (*granted Kharn isn’t fully mortal, but still)

Who is Vect? I have never heard of him before.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wait, Kharn killed Sigismund? Is this before of after Sigismund filleted the giant douche on a mountain dead traitor marines?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Kharn made his name by butchering thousands of noobs/civilians/everyday marines. A real Chapter Master or equivalent would kick his ass all around the room.

Lucius died so many times because he actively seeks out the very best, the leaders, the elites, and then takes them on one at a time in 1v1 combat. Kharn just stands in a mob of people and swings his axe like a thresher until everyone has stopped breathing.

Vs questions are silly anyway, because it comes down to who has the better plot armour, and the answer is of course Marneus Calgar.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

@ CPT Killjoy didnt Marneus Calgar rip an avatar of Khaine into peices?

And a fight between Kharn and Doombreed who ever lost would have their soul or essance riped to peices as Khorne dispises weaklings and their skull would become part of his throne.

And im supprised no one has said Loken as he has already beaten Kharn once?


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I didn't know Calgar had destroyed one. Not a big Ultramarines fan. What story is that in? Or is it referenced somewhere else (i.e. in a codex)? 

Have to agree with you Joe on Doombreed vs Kharn. I still think Doombreed would slaughter him, although Khrone would probably resurrect him on principle. He has brought way too many skulls to the throne for him to just disappear. Plus anyone crazy enough to face off against Doombreed 1v1 would have to be highly favored by the Blood God (or deluded into thinking they could win by the Emperor).

Still haven't heard about Vect. Anyone know who this is?


By the way *Sethis*, if all Kharn did was kill helpless (or basically helpless) victims, he wouldn't have survived for anywhere near this long, nor would he be feared by other chaos marines (since, in general, they see eachother as weak). I'm going to have to dig up some fluff to prove it though. More to follow.......


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Kharn can't be killed. So that in itself is a fucking problem. Plus Kharn has more than 10,000 years of Khorne's blessing and experience. Don't think this is a fair fight. Forget game rules.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Kharn never beat Sigismund to my knowledge. Even before those events Sigismund was considered to be one of the top Astartes warriors even up there with Abaddon. From what I remember of when he became Emperor's Champion at the walls of the palace was "Hey Sigismund, take this armor and sword and show these animals who's boss." To which Sigismund carved his way into legend. In no story I ever heard has Kharn beaten Sigismund and if they met at Terra, Kharn got his ass handed to him.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

CPT Killjoy said:


> Still haven't heard about Vect. Anyone know who this is?


Asdrubal Vect, the biggest Dark Eldar badass, has been alive since the Fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh, spending a lot of his free time before and since fighting in gladiatorial arenas.



CPT Killjoy said:


> By the way *Sethis*, if all Kharn did was kill helpless (or basically helpless) victims, he wouldn't have survived for anywhere near this long, nor would he be feared by other chaos marines (since, in general, they see eachother as weak). I'm going to have to dig up some fluff to prove it though. More to follow.......


I've never heard of him facing off against any other "Elite" character and winning. He massacres enemy space marines, friendly space marines, and a lot of unfriendly aliens, but to my knowledge he's never described as having fought any 1v1 duels of note. He'd murder a normal 40k Captain simply through experience and insane Khorne-induced strength, but he'd lose against anyone exceptional.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

@CPT Killjoy

Its on his lexicanum page and more specifics are on the page for the battle or Orar's Sepulchre (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_for_Orar's_Sepulchre)

As for kharn vs and khornate daemon..... it would all be for khornes amusment... hed never let such artful and skillful worriors die. He just wants more blood.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Though I don't believe Kharn could take someone like Sigismund I don't believe he only targets weak or innocent targets. Something akin to the Skulltaker, Khorne does sometimes look to the skulls that are being placed on his throne. I doubt the pride of the Blood God would be satiated by such meak offerings and Kharn would not be held in such high esteem if he only brought in old woman and children.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I've never heard of him facing off against any other "Elite" character and winning. He massacres enemy space marines, friendly space marines, and a lot of unfriendly aliens, but to my knowledge he's never described as having fought any 1v1 duels of note. He'd murder a normal 40k Captain simply through experience and insane Khorne-induced strength, but he'd lose against anyone exceptional.


...I can't tell if your trolling at this point? Even considering the nature of the warp Kharn has been from one blood soaked battle field to a another for centuries on end. He unlike chapter masters and eldar leaders is not a tactician but a warriors and murderer meaning that it is insane to think that he hasn't killed everything from orc warbosses to chapter masters (Dime a dozen when you consider the tens of thousands that have died since the heresy). I mean realistically he is not the type to leave such a task to a underling or heavy weapon.

Sure there have been some over estimates of his power in this thread, but your comments are so detached from the fluff and the table top that one has to wounder if your not heavily biased or just trolling at this point. Sure unlike other GW wank fests their aren't 100 stories floating around of him killing space gods and the like, but judging by the ridiculous amping up of the fluff I expect their will be plenty of stupid stories about him killing entire craft worlds and murdering space marine chapters single handedly....is that really what you want?


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Calgar killed an Avatar, and so has Fulgrim; the problem for the Avatars to ever be remotely as powerful as they perhaps could (or even should) be is because we don't know how many of them there are, and therefore don't know how big a portion of Khaine's power each one holds. 

It's a similar scenario to C'tan Shards, except the C'tan were split into hundreds of Shards each and every Shard is complete badass, hence the original C'tan literally being Star Gods... they were just ridiculous. C'tan vs Primarch, C'tan wins, but C'tan _Shard_ vs Primarch, Shard's toast.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I know that every Craftworld has an Avatar, and I know that at least two of them are gone (Malan'Tai's and Kher'ys' Avatar are either destroyed or possessed), but I don't know how many Craftworlds there are. The fact that a run-of-the-mill Keeper of Secrets can kill one by chopping off it's hands and blinding it is indicative of it's power level (yes, the Avatar was not awakened properly with the whole Young King jazz, but it _was_ fuelled by the death and torture of it's host craftworld. Rage is strong.

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I think Avatars are overrated in their actual abilities, but get roflstomped too much in fanboy writing e.g. Calgar, even Fulgrim. An avatar of the God of War is still only an avatar, but that gives no right for those fluff-armoured nancy-boys to walk all over them.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Shrike would need the element of surprise, plus an epically powerful first strike to even have a chance, IMO. In a prolonged, hand-to-hand fight, Kharn - no contest.

Edit: spanner, I kind of agree with you - perhaps it symbolizes the decline of the Eldar as a whole, but Avatars don't seem to always live up to the power of their description.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

Kharn wins hands down. Shrike might chop an arm off or something, but that's as far as he'll go. That being said, the fanboy wankfest over Kharn is getting annoying. If he is completely and totally invincible then what's the bloody point of even discussing this? Besides, Khorne doesn't seem the type to just raise his warriors when they get their arse handed to them. Doesn't that go against his whole shtick? (Not stating this, only asking).

The Swarmlord or an Avatar would tear him or any other Astartes to shreds lore wise. Grimnar and Dante would have a pretty good chance, but they'd be badly injured at best by the end of the fight. I always got the impression that Calgar was more of a tactical master than a combat one, and that melee wise he's decent compared to normal chapter masters, but nothing special. If he is allowed to make preparations and control the battle then he should have a chance, but otherwise he's screwed. I think Yriel would give Kharn a good run for his money, and Karandras and Jain Zar could actually kill him. Old One Eye could cut him pretty badly as well, considering his absurd regenerative abilities.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Avarars = Fragments of the War God's power. They still embody Khaine's mindset completely. 

C'tan shards = Fragments of a C'tan's Mind and memories. They are still beings of _NEAR-_unlimited power. 


On topic, Kharn would defeat Shrike. Shrike has far more finesse and grace admittedly, by Kharn is a berzerker among berzerkers and his astartes physiology would allow him to survive whatever glancing hits Shrike managed to inflict. 

That's the way I see it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> C'tan shards = Fragments of a C'tan's Mind and memories. They are still beings of unlimited power.


NEAR-unlimited. They are beings of near-unlimited power.


_FINE! 

-Serpa_


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> ...I can't tell if your trolling at this point? Even considering the nature of the warp Kharn has been from one blood soaked battle field to a another for centuries on end. He unlike chapter masters and eldar leaders is not a tactician but a warriors and murderer meaning that it is insane to think that he hasn't killed everything from orc warbosses to chapter masters (Dime a dozen when you consider the tens of thousands that have died since the heresy). I mean realistically he is not the type to leave such a task to a underling or heavy weapon.


Well we can go on assumptions, or we can go on what is actually written down - that Kharn "has dedicated his millenia-long existance to unleashing bloody carnage on anyone and anything within reach". Khorne Berserkers "have become the ultimate close combat fighters, entering an uncontrollable frenzy in the heat of battle".

So yeah, he's probaly killed some leaders of warbands/armies, but if the enemy is smart enough to stay out of his way and just throw some fodder at him, he'll spend his entire time happily mowing down chaff. It's not that he deliberately leaves enemy HQs to others, just that once battle starts he doesn't have the ability or inclination to seek out specific enemies and fight them in 1v1 combat. I'm not saying he can't fight, I'm saying he has nowhere near the practice or experience in duelling as many other fluff characters.



LukeValantine said:


> Sure there have been some over estimates of his power in this thread, but your comments are so detached from the fluff and the table top that one has to wounder if your not heavily biased or just trolling at this point. Sure unlike other GW wank fests their aren't 100 stories floating around of him killing space gods and the like, but judging by the ridiculous amping up of the fluff I expect their will be plenty of stupid stories about him killing entire craft worlds and murdering space marine chapters single handedly....is that really what you want?


I go by what I read in the books and codicies. Kharn is a pretty good fighter, who rages so much he becomes effectively immune to pain and is very hard to kill because he's one of Khornes favoured minions, but at the end of the day he's just a Space Marine. Not a Daemon Prince (and if Khorne cared that much about him, shouldn't he *be* one by now?). Not a Greater Daemon. Not a Primarch. Just a regular Space Marine with a big axe who's been alive for a while. There are loads of things in 40k who would stamp all over him.

Eldar are the most dicked on race in 40k fluff, ever. Every time a xenos race needs a kicking by the GW erection-men (i.e. Marines) then Eldar are the first ones to get put in line by the authors. Despite the Eldar fluff completely contradicting huge amounts of what is supposed to happen to them. That's why Avatars never seem to do anything at all except get pissed on by every other wannabe hard man in any book, ever.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

its simple................................ i win


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Sethis said:


> Asdrubal Vect, the biggest Dark Eldar badass, has been alive since the Fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh, spending a lot of his free time before and since fighting in gladiatorial arenas.


To be fair Kharn's also been alive since the Fall of the Eldar (if we're dating the Fall from Slaanesh's birth in M30.).

@OP. Kharn would annihilate Shrike. I'm not saying he's 'the best fighter ever' mind you, i can think of a lot of things or individuals that could likely defeat him. Kharn is a butcher, a whirling tempest of blood and fury. He doesn't go from duel to duel but hacks through anything he encounters on the battlefield.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

@ Sethis: So I have to agree with you about the Eldar. Both Eldar and Tau have really become the losers in the 40k fluff realm. It seems that while their own fluff lists them as mighty warriors, every other reference to them ends with “while it was a close battle, the *Tau or Eldar* where defeated”. Kind of sad really considering how advanced both races are. Hell, Kroot are always list as strong as a space marine, and marginally faster, and yet they always lose (lack of bolters I guess). And Farseers, who are some of the most powerful psykers in 40k, never seem to be able to turn the tide the same way a Libby can, and are readily killed in many a short story that I’ve read. I hope that in the near future both GW and the BL recognize this, and make an effort to prop up these once proud races. 

As far as Kharn goes, I hear what your saying, but I still think he has the experience to kill most* other independent characters in 40K in a 1v1 fight. He has arguably more experience than anyone else currently alive in 40k (again, arguably). He has fought constantly since even before the battle at Terra, during the crusades (the warp messing with time not withstanding). His sole purpose in life is to fight and kill everything he possibly can (from the weak and helpless, to the most elite commander in any battle). While I’ll grant you that he more than likely wouldn’t seek out anyone in particular to fight, you have to see the other side of it as well. No Ork Warboss would turn down a chance to fight the toughest person on the battle field. No Necron lord would stand for Kharn halting his progress so readily. And certainly, no Space marine commander would pass up the chance to kill Kharn the Betrayer, Champion of Khrone, and Scion of Evil. There is quite a bit of fluff to support the fact that no matter how level headed a commander is, once their arch enemy is present, they instantly seek to destroy that enemy by any means necessary. This almost always begins with them taking to the field personally (i.e. ‘The Gildar Rift’) or sending their top tier champion to fight him instead (i.e. the beginning of "The Hunt for Voldorius"). Because of this, I have to disagree with you about him killing only fodder. I’m not saying he doesn’t kill anything and everything that he can (including his own men if they’re in ax swinging distance), but he has definitely fought and killed high ranking members of prossibly every race in 40k (at the very least Orks and SM, since you can’t move 5 feet into real space without running into one or the other). That doesn’t make him invincible, and it doesn’t make him immortal. It just makes him one of the very best CC fighters in 40k. Simply surviving all of the battles he has puts him on par with someone who only seeks to duel other great fighters. He’s just conatantly honing his skill in actual battle, over and over and over again (Killing frenzy or not, you’re gonna gain some level of skill from fighting for close to 10,000 years). I’ll grant you that we have to make assumptions about his battles, but isn’t that the point of “What would happen if…?”. Shrike has never fought Kharn. Neither has Lysander. But we have to make the assumption that if they did, one or the other would be killed (Kharn or Lysander/ Kharn or Shrike) . So while I hear what you’re saying, I have to disagree with you.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So Kharn is the most over powered person, in the category of normal astartes. That seems to be the idea of this thread. He can't quite stand on his own feet on the level of Primarchs or Daemon Princes, but anything short of that and he has a good chance. 

As for Vect, Khorn would destroy him. Vect has the speed, but that's it. It says in the codex that he did not get to his status by combative skill. 


How about a Broodlord? A Broodlord has the speed, strength, and experience. The only thing it may be lacking in is durability. One good hit from Kharn and he would be toast. It would be safe to say that Kharn could resist any of the Broodlords new psyker abilities, but Broodlords are known to be formidable combatants.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Kharn kills a Daemon Prince in the short story The Wrath of Kharn. It's a Slaanesh Daemon Prince, bound within an artifact called the Heart of Desire. Yeah, it's bound, but he's just killed his way through a.) a battlefield, b.) a Slaaneshi temple, c.) nigh-on twenty Khorne Berzerkers, and finally, d.) a Slaaneshi Chaos Champion (who is apparently human, but is also up to his pierced eyebrows in blessings).

Midnight


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I remember that! I haven't read it in sometime, but I did read it. From what I remember though it wasn't really his fighting skill that pulled him through, it was his shear force of will tht would not be swayed by the Daemon. Still though, I do seem to remember that he killed a ton of guys to get there.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Something in the realm of 2500 guys if i remember correctly. He has that handy kill counter on his hud.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TechPr1est said:


> its simple................................ i win


Posts like this Techpr1est, add nothing whatsoever to a thread that has an actual purpose.

So don't do it.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

When you think about it really should be a bit of a stretch to think that any current chapter master or marine Special character could kill any CSM special character (Well maybe fabius bile, but he is basically a evil apothecary). We are after all talking about the best of the best the space marine legions had during the heresy period, only now they have demonic powers and gods watching over them. 

However even so there are equally ancient and deadly fighters in 40k, but almost nothing human or mortal should be on their level. Lts put this in perspective there is what 4-10 CSM special characters of note mentioned in the entire 40k universe, that means for every one of them their are 10-100 space marine chapter masters and other such combatants at any given time. Hell during their life time their has probably been a few dozen people like Calgar, and probably more then a hundred orc warboses that could beat a gray knight to death with one hand. So really it makes sense that they are portrayed as unstoppable demonic monsters. Still encountering any one of these particular CSM's on a battlefield would be like the chances of encountering a c'tan or a avatar of khain.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> When you think about it really should be a bit of a stretch to think that any current chapter master or marine Special character could kill any CSM special character... there is what 4-10 CSM special characters of note mentioned in the entire 40k universe, that means for every one of them their are 10-100 space marine chapter masters and other such combatants at any given time.


Why do you think that just because there are more of something, that they must inherently be worse? You could easily say the same thing about Tau, they only have, what, 3-4 characters? So they therefore must be able to lolpwn every single non-special character in the universe, despite the fact that one of them is a Space Pope on a hover chair...

1. Time flows differently in the Warp (or doesn't). Kharn doesn't have 10,000 years of experience, he has "blips" of "real universe" experience a few years or so every century/millenia when he leads raids outside the Eye of Terror. And that doesn't mean he's fighting for the rest of the time either - he could go out, raid, come back to refuel/rearm, head straight back out again (call it 2 months from his perception) and suddenly two thousand years have passed without him noticing.

2. In the Eye of Terror even if he is fighting constantly, it's always with the protection of his god and that's the difference between a kid playfighting in the garden with his mom watching him, and going 5 streets away and fighting complete strangers. Trillions of unimportant Daemons may die every year, and the Ruinous powers don't care, but special little flowers like Kharn and Lucius and Ahriman catch the eye of their god, and so Slaanesh/Nurgle/whoever isn't going to let their favourite toys die in some pointless little scuffle on a Daemon planet in the Warp. _Not while it's within their power_. That means the only time named Chaos Characters are potentially at risk is when they venture out into real space, where the Gods have much less power and control.



LukeValantine said:


> Still encountering any one of these particular CSM's on a battlefield would be like the chances of encountering a c'tan or a avatar of khain.


I think you're *vastly* overestimating how powerful a normal space marine with a little bit of added power from the warp is.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Sethis said:


> 1. Time flows differently in the Warp (or doesn't). Kharn doesn't have 10,000 years of experience, he has "blips" of "real universe" experience a few years or so every century/millenia when he leads raids outside the Eye of Terror. And that doesn't mean he's fighting for the rest of the time either - he could go out, raid, come back to refuel/rearm, head straight back out again (call it 2 months from his perception) and suddenly two thousand years have passed without him noticing.


well it works like this, The warp steals all meaning from the material realm, the Heresy was days in the past for some traitors within the eye and 50,000 for other, each and every could to betray the emperor can claim a different scale of time for the years since.

Also again according to the the short story "The weakness of others" and i quote " I was the first to stand upon the walls of the imperial palace, i was the last to be borne away from terra, my body broken by the slaying of ONE MILLION of the emperors lackleys through the breach at the lions gate....."
i previously wrote Kharn killed Sigisimund and gave a source but the source is not that one and i can no longer remember where i found it so go ahead and disregard it, sorry for that.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Lost&Damned said:


> well it works like this, The warp steals all meaning from the material realm, the Heresy was days in the past for some traitors within the eye and 50,000 for other, each and every could to betray the emperor can claim a different scale of time for the years since.
> 
> Also again according to the the short story "The weakness of others" and i quote " I was the first to stand upon the walls of the imperial palace, i was the last to be borne away from terra, my body broken by the slaying of ONE MILLION of the emperors lackleys through the breach at the lions gate....."
> i previously wrote Kharn killed Sigisimund and gave a source but the source is not that one and i can no longer remember where i found it so go ahead and disregard it, sorry for that.


 

That's okay. Everyone here who knows anything about lore knows that Sigismund was pretty much never defeated by ANYONE at the siege of Terra. Which means if they met Kharn got his ass kicked.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Is it known who defeated Kharn in the Imperial Palace?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> Is it known who defeated Kharn in the Imperial Palace?


The entire combined legions of Blood Angels and Imperial Fists? Shooting him with boltguns? Just a guess. :grin:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Why do you think that just because there are more of something, that they must inherently be worse? You could easily say the same thing about Tau, they only have, what, 3-4 characters? So they therefore must be able to lolpwn every single non-special character in the universe, despite the fact that one of them is a Space Pope on a hover chair...
> 
> 1. Time flows differently in the Warp (or doesn't). Kharn doesn't have 10,000 years of experience, he has "blips" of "real universe" experience a few years or so every century/millenia when he leads raids outside the Eye of Terror. And that doesn't mean he's fighting for the rest of the time either - he could go out, raid, come back to refuel/rearm, head straight back out again (call it 2 months from his perception) and suddenly two thousand years have passed without him noticing.
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about power on the second point, but the shear statistical improbability of encountering them. After all there are more c'tan shards and shards of the avatar of khain floating around then the 4-5 chaos marine special characters.

Also I never claimed they had combat experience representing the length of time between the heresy and the modern period, but even discounting the time they spend in the warp each has probably been abroad in real space conducting war for longer then most chapter masters have lived. Hell even if we assume time in the warp in represented by a fraction of the flow in real space each has probably had at a minimum 1000+ years of battlefield experience in the most nightmarish of combat zones, this includes their long stints as part of the pre-heresy legions. Even within the army comparing a CSM lord that has killed entire planets to a say kharn is like comparing a infant to a full grown war veteran.

Also I think you are misunderstanding the fact that most CSM characters are not really space marines anymore. Hell Typhus can't even really be considered human at all at this point. I agree that they probably aren't as powerful as people think, but still we are talking about creatures that live in a hellish dimension of war and apparently no longer are affected by aging at all (Most marines do in fact age so we can assume CSM's no longer are mortal creatures).

Now I also agree that other armies have things that should be able to fight and win against these kinds of inhuman warp fueled monstrosities, but a space marine chapter master is not one of them. Maybe a eldar autarch or a necron lord, but these are also creatures that count the flow of their lives in centuries and not years or decades, and probably have even more combat experience, but lack the reality bending power that fuels the meat puppets that are CSM characters.

Also I am really unsure about what would logically lead anyone to think a loyalist character could fight a CSM character 1-1. After all in terms of combat experience and combat skill its like claiming a space marine sergeant should be able to fight a space marine chapter master. After all many of the CSM lords and character were once full fledge chapter masters and space marine hero's before they turned, so they probably have all the skills and fury they had before plus gifts that elevate them beyond simple super humans. 

This just logically follows from what we know about CSM's. Now whether or not things like avatars, autarchs, c'tans, and the like could out and out beat a CSM character to death is a matter I dare not comment on, but regular marine characters? Why not just claim that a gaurdsman should be able to beat a Eldar autarch?


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## Thebluemage2 (Feb 16, 2012)

If it is a straight up fight, Kharn, but if Shrike has time to be a crafty little bastard then he can win.

So really, it depends on the circumstances, but for what your describing I would say Kharn.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I think Cypher could take Kharn. As long as he keeps some distance. He's filthy with those pistols of his.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Toe to toe ... Game Genie Mephiston would smack him around and call him Susan. Goes at a faster Initiative, casts retard strength hits him, wounds him and the Str 10 instant deaths him to ..... well; death.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

I guess the upcoming book "Chosen of Khorne" will shed some more light on how tough Khârn really is.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/chosen-of-khorne.html


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I would think that it should help to fuel the fires of Khorne


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I just found this on another thread:



SonofMalice said:


> Kharn the Betrayer. Play him almost every game, still haven't lost him. Most memorable was when he basically murdered an entire army. He and his squad were in a Rhino , dude got a REALLY lucky shot and blew it up. He and a few guys managed to survive and assaulted the second they were able totally wiping out one of his squads. So then he drops 2 plasma bcannons, 2 frag missiles, all his troops blot guns and his orbital bombardment right on top of them. Kharn took one wound, immediately charged and killed the Devastator squad, ran right into a ten man tactical squad and wiped that out. Last of all (with 1 wound remaining) he dueled the chapter master (he had full health) and killed him too. Blood for the blood god etc


Find a game were Shrike can do that. Not gonna happen. And that isn't even using his mighty Fluff powers either...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I would never bet against Captain Kirk and if his shirt gets ripped in the fight Khan is as good as a dead man


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Shrike would have to get past that plasma pistol first. And then the blood (for the blood god) thirst.
Complete disregard for himself and his own mortality give Kharn edge over just skill with melee weapons.
The jump pack and twin Lighting Claws give Shrike a fighting chance against psychosis and a Lobotomy.

Assuming he could 'jump' his way past the plasma bolts, it could very well be a fair fight.

Alice


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

If the circumstances were different Shrike might have had a chance, but in a one-on-one head-to-head confrontation it's always gonna be Kharn.

You don't get to be the chosen warrior of the god of martial prowess by collecting postage stamps.


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