# Sisters PDF Delays Explained?



## Zion

Doing my usual check for Sisters news I ran across something interesting. While it's no means an answer on what's going on behind closed doors, it might be the reason we haven't seen rules online yet. (*SOURCE*)



> Following up on some frustration I encountered from some onlookers during a game last week who said they could not get hold of the WD magazines containing the WD 'Codex', I contacted GW today to suggest that it might be a good idea to put a PDF version up on the GW site as they had done for the Witch Hunters codex. I suggested that they would probably sell more models if they did this. The answer I got was most interesting.
> 
> They told me that despite meaning to, they have been holding off from doing exactly that until they hear back from the design studio. They told me that they have been pestering the design studio recently but have not received a reply yet. I was advised to keep watching the website and WD.
> 
> Now, this could just be a stock response of some sort intended to deal with unwanted enquiries, but the mention of the design studio, rather than something more generic, was interesting. Why would the design studio play a role in not putting up a PDF of something that is supposedly current when there are models available already?
> 
> There is a new Sisters novel expected from James Swallow some time next year. Okay - that is BL rather than strictly GW but the two are hardly unconnected. Similarly in the Aeronautica Imperialis book, the Avenger is obviously a naval craft but it is specifically tied to the sisters in the description. Again, FW is not strictly GW either, but they are hardly unconnected. At the BL Weekender someone from BL also told me that they were recently looking through Deviant Art to identify potential illustrators who might be good enough to work for them.
> 
> So none of this is conclusive, but before the gainsayers start shouting that it means nothing, I would have to say that it does look as if GW might be intending to send some love the sisters' way, perhaps sometime in the middle of next year and that the one or two scraps seen so far might be pre-positioning from a release of some sort. Could the reticence of GW to put a PDF up be an indication that sisters may come back looking a bit different and thus not like what is seen in the WD 'codex'?
> 
> Too much to hope for or something to look forward to?


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## Tawa

TAKE MY MONEY!!!


Seriously though, it's as good a theory as any I guess. Here's hoping!


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## Turnip86

I really hope it's just a rumour.

The forum scene would be incomplete without all you SoB fans jumping at every shadow in the hope that it contains info on a release.










(that was a joke, please don't purify me :hang1


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## Zion

Turnip86 said:


> I really hope it's just a rumour.
> 
> The forum scene would be incomplete without all you SoB fans jumping at every shadow in the hope that it contains info on a release.


I hope it's a rumor in the sense that the design team isn't actively (or even unconsciously) dicking the Sisters of Battle over.




Turnip86 said:


> (that was a joke, please don't purify me :hang1


But what am I supposed to do with this torch and pitchfork now?


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## normtheunsavoury

I'm not so sure there ever was going to be a PDF release to be honest, the way things are now its far more likely that the Sisters WD Dex will be released as a digital codex, straight onto Ipad. It could be what has caused the delay with the design team, trying to make a half arsed codex look almost good enough to actually charge money for.


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## Arcane

adds stock to the idea that the Administratum is designed off GW it's self. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing... and subsequently, nothing gets done.


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## Sworn Radical

Zion said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Now, this could just be a stock response of some sort intended to deal with unwanted enquiries
> ...
Click to expand...

This. 
Flush your hopes.




normtheunsavoury said:


> ...
> its far more likely that the Sisters WD Dex will be released as a digital codex, straight onto Ipad. It could be what has caused the delay with the design team, trying to make a half arsed codex look almost good enough to actually charge money for.


And this.


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## Tawa

Oh yay, digital.....


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## Sethis

Sorry, but I don't see the connection between "Scanned copy of WD not being released" and "May get new stuff next year".

It's the work of 20 minutes (if that) to scan 12 pages (or even copy by hand into a new document) and upload them to a website.

Even if they were producing new SoB stuff next month, it's not an excuse to not release the PDF.

What is far more likely is that, as mentioned above, they are putting it into the interactive iCrap program, to force people to actually spend money. Because that's software and stuff, the delay is a little more understandable (if not forgivable) than if they were simply uploading photocopies.

But for the time being, any google search will reveal a virus-free copy of the dex that you're free to download at any time, without recourse to torrenting.


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## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> I'm not so sure there ever was going to be a PDF release to be honest, the way things are now its far more likely that the Sisters WD Dex will be released as a digital codex, straight onto Ipad. It could be what has caused the delay with the design team, trying to make a half arsed codex look almost good enough to actually charge money for.


It's incredibly possible there were no plans for a PDF, but GW hasn't shied away from telling people "nope, none for you" in the past when asked. This does offer some plausibility to the idea of a digital codex, or perhaps an update to the current one to use the 6th Edition rule set in a much more complete manner (drop the Seraphim Pistols, change it so the Battle Sisters AoF gives Preferred Enemy while in combat or shooting, ect).

Either way I wouldn't be surprised if workloads were preventing it from being addressed.



Arcane said:


> adds stock to the idea that the Administratum is designed off GW it's self. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing... and subsequently, nothing gets done.


Completely possible. Having a government job now (albiet the military part of the government) I can say this is a pretty common thing. There is a lot of "what are they smoking?" that comes up in day to day operations in regards to other units and so on.



Sworn Radical said:


> This.
> Flush your hopes.


Hardly. I have no hopes, just a vested interest in sharing rumors and news (especially when they pertain to an army I like) with the folks here so we can talk about them. I live the Hope to the Sisters proper.



Tawa said:


> Oh yay, digital.....


Digital would be a step in the right direction I think. FAQs would regularly be updated, new pictures (instead of them recycling ones they've been using since 2nd Edition) and updating the rules to match the ones in 6th Edition would be better than what we've got, and would be more generally available.

Yes we run into the "still only on iPad" problem then but that's more available than two OOP magazines.



Sethis said:


> Sorry, but I don't see the connection between "Scanned copy of WD not being released" and "May get new stuff next year".


I'm not even sure where this connection is coming from unless you're referring to the product list (which just may have been a list of when they'll start printing packages, or who knows...the whole argument there started getting confusing and generally it seems like it's group consensus to pretend it never happened unless it turns out to be right.) 

Either way I was just sharing a rumor I ran across that I found interesting and discussion worthy.



Sethis said:


> It's the work of 20 minutes (if that) to scan 12 pages (or even copy by hand into a new document) and upload them to a website.


Actually presuming they still have the original documents that were used to make the WD Articles then it shouldn't be that long, but without knowing what's going on exactly I can't really say why they haven't done it or if there is something more to it exactly.



Sethis said:


> Even if they were producing new SoB stuff next month, it's not an excuse to not release the PDF.


I am in 100% agreement with you here. The codex is a year old already and we haven't seen the rules become publicly available? That's a little weird.



Sethis said:


> What is far more likely is that, as mentioned above, they are putting it into the interactive iCrap program, to force people to actually spend money. Because that's software and stuff, the delay is a little more understandable (if not forgivable) than if they were simply uploading photocopies.


I don't know about the codexes themselves, but as I digitally subscribe to the WD (no mail delays, I can actually get it ON TIME every month) I don't think the program is bad, but it needs some tweaking as there are some strange issues regarding how long pages take to load sometimes. 

Either way, delays are understandable in that respect but if they knew they were going to do this (and they must have to get all those books ready for the launch) then someone could have taken some time to do the same for the Sisters.



Sethis said:


> But for the time being, any google search will reveal a virus-free copy of the dex that you're free to download at any time, without recourse to torrenting.


While true, I don't believe being able to find something online fixes the lack of support shown by the company. I can understand not doing a new codex until they have a model range to support it, and fixing the problems that come with that first. I can even understand the reasons they changed the Sisters they way they did through WD (6th Edition ally rules, updating out of wack points costs on things (Rhinos), shuffling the Inquisition to the Grey Knights so the Sisters could return to their 2nd Edition roots and re-balancing the few shared models that were left so they had the same rules and stats), but to not make the rule set available on a long term scale actually puts Sisters at a greater disadvantage than anyone who tries to play Forgeworld, because at the end of the day you can still get the Forgeworld rules legally.


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## Archon Dan

I find it interesting that "the design studio" is mentioned. Which one? GW likely has more than one, each dedicated to one or more facets of the company and product lines. You could presumably have studios for model design/concept art, illustrations, web design, White Dwarf layout and photography and codex design and layout. The list isn't inclusive and departments could be combined but they still likely have more than one studio. So, which studio is dragging its heels?


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## Zion

Archon Dan said:


> I find it interesting that "the design studio" is mentioned. Which one? GW likely has more than one, each dedicated to one or more facets of the company and product lines. You could presumably have studios for model design/concept art, illustrations, web design, White Dwarf layout and photography and codex design and layout. The list isn't inclusive and departments could be combined but they still likely have more than one studio. So, which studio is dragging its heels?


That's a good question I've been wondering as well. I've been assuming the rules department, but it could be their waiting on new color art, or more models to come back from the 'Eavy Metal team, or a number of things. Either way this is more specific finger pointing that GW has done in the past.


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## Tawa

Zion said:


> Yes we run into the "still only on iPad" problem then


Which is what I'm worried about tbh


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## Arcane

Really sounds like a stock response "Oh we are just waiting to hear back from the other guy..." and of course "Keep looking at the website for new stuff". 

TBH it's pretty disrespectful towards their customers. Whenever I handle the retail section at work I be sure to pass on any knowledge I get from companies at update schools or visits to the factory. There's no need to mislead your own customers short of flat out telling them what is coming out and when.


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## Kettu

Oh fun, so instead of GW giving us the faildex for free (As they should), they'll instead whack a $400+ price tag on it.


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## Zion

Tawa said:


> Which is what I'm worried about tbh


It's probably Stockholm Syndrome talking but at this point I'd be happy to see SOMETHING.



Arcane said:


> Really sounds like a stock response "Oh we are just waiting to hear back from the other guy..." and of course "Keep looking at the website for new stuff".


I don't remember GW doing a lot of finger pointing. The "keep looking at the website" and such is stock for just about any question, but saying that another department is dragging it's heels strikes me as uncharacteristic enough that it might be the truth.



Arcane said:


> TBH it's pretty disrespectful towards their customers. Whenever I handle the retail section at work I be sure to pass on any knowledge I get from companies at update schools or visits to the factory. There's no need to mislead your own customers short of flat out telling them what is coming out and when.


To me that always feels like the best way to do things, but who knows what goes on behind the scenes. Someone apparently has put some thought into this and decided that an opaque company model was best. Maybe it's to keep from dealing with backlash from the customer base over everything they do when they consider doing it, or maybe it's in response to things like Chapterhouse.

All I know is that there was some kind of logic used to go this way, even if that kind of logic has nothing to do with the normal kinds of logic we're used to.



Kettu said:


> Oh fun, so instead of GW giving us the faildex for free (As they should), they'll instead whack a $400+ price tag on it.


Calling this a faildex is a knee-jerk reaction that honestly needs to stop (to be frank once Warseer stops whinging about something it's not worth whinging over anymore). The WD-dex functions rather well (and I hear from folks who are familiar with the Blood Angels WD Dex that ours works better than theirs), and only suffers from the fact that GW apparently didn't want to put anything in there that didn't have a model (not like they would have done in the past). This might be because of Chapterhouse, or it might be because of some things that are still in the air and can't be included yet because they don't know that they're going to do it, or it could be a number of other things.

The codex works. It's not what anyone was hoping for, but it's better than what they could have done. I understand that not everyone can be pleased for everything we get, but honestly we had Cruddace write the rules and Ward write the fluff and somehow we came out of this in one piece. We even shook off the unneeded layers of the Ordo Hereticus that had been slapped on to sell the Inquisition. 

The Sisters have returned to their Ecclesiarchy roots, and can only get better from here.


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## Tawa

Zion said:


> It's probably Stockholm Syndrome talking but at this point I'd be happy to see SOMETHING.


Maybe, maybe not. Hell, I'd settle for simply seeing some figures turn up as an allied detachment in a WD battle report or as a "Mr X's SoB Army"


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## boreas

Zion said:


> The WD-dex functions rather well.


So does a baloney sandwich. It still a very boring lunch... If only GW could have made that codex tasty, I might have kept my SoB army. Still no excuse for the lack of PDF, though. Typical "we don't give a shit" behavior from GW. If I'd pissed off a customer even remotely like GW has pissed off SoB players for the last ten years (remember: no real codex, mostly ignored in all supplements like apocalypse, no way to get the bland WD-codex at this moment, nothing from FW since the Repressor 10 years ago, etc), I'd be mortified...


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## Zion

boreas said:


> So does a baloney sandwich. It still a very boring lunch... If only GW could have made that codex tasty, I might have kept my SoB army. Still no excuse for the lack of PDF, though. Typical "we don't give a shit" behavior from GW. If I'd pissed off a customer even remotely like GW has pissed off SoB players for the last ten years (remember: no real codex, mostly ignored in all supplements like apocalypse, no way to get the bland WD-codex at this moment, nothing from FW since the Repressor 10 years ago, etc), I'd be mortified...


You chose to get rid of your army, I chose to keep mine, expand it and then beat other people's armies into the ground. 

The models, fluff and background has a lot of flavor, we're just at the 2nd Edition level of unit selection.

I think GW is working on something, it just isn't there yet. Be it the models, the rules or the writers not having enough ideas on what to add it isn't there. I'm willing to wait for it to be ready than getting something that is half-assed and has poor or no model support. While the White Dwarf codex fits this criteria for some (it's not what I'm talking about though), it brought the Sisters into a "ready for 6th Edition" status. Some models are given updated statlines to match the Grey Knights, non-Ecclesiarchy related things were removed and Ecclesiarchy things were added back in and the allies where stripped out in favor of the 6th Edition allies rules.

Generally this update was a great way to get Sisters 6th edition ready and set us up with a decent core for the dev team to build off of.


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## deathwatch27

At least you could use the "as is" rule grab a marine dex and use flamers/meltas. Models are models at the end of the day. I would of painted them all up and used them "as" marines for the time being.

But considering the army exists and their homeworld hasn't been ete by nids the GW should still support them, were's the love?


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## Arcane

I would have rather kept the old WH codex. The kitted out Canoness was very very fun, 11 Immolators on the table with melta sisters shooting out of the tops, AP1 flamers... oh Emperor, it was good. 

That said, despite the boring-halfassed WD, it's still good enough to beat most players... except the lack of flyer support, the one huge glaring issue with the WDdex.


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## Magpie_Oz

The Sisters do very well out of the Imperial Armour Aeronautica


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## Necrosis

GW should make a kick starter for sisters of battle.


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## Magpie_Oz

LOL, not a bad idea the Sisters guys would pay out big time I reckon..... me too probably


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## Necrosis

This would be the first kick starter I back. Besides GW has nothing to lose by starting a kick starter.


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## Arcane

GW won't do that, they won't even put the effort into releasing a PDF which takes only a matter of converting the digital files they already used to print the WD. 

Imperial Armour Aeronautica is great and all but my FLGS decided to no longer support Forgeworld due to gripes from the player base that it was OMGUBEROVERPOWEREDDD!!!!111!!


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## Zion

Arcane said:


> GW won't do that, they won't even put the effort into releasing a PDF which takes only a matter of converting the digital files they already used to print the WD.


Well that and the internet is something that GW doesn't seem to get how to use just yet. They're getting better, but there seems to be some upper management that seems to think the internets are full of tubes and evil.



Arcane said:


> Imperial Armour Aeronautica is great and all but my FLGS decided to no longer support Forgeworld due to gripes from the player base that it was OMGUBEROVERPOWEREDDD!!!!111!!


So basically your FLGS sucks. GW really needs to put on their big boy pants and just make FW an official supplement that covers anything they don't. They only stand to make more money by doing it honestly.


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## Arcane

FLGS isn't bad but the owner is more interested in Magic the gathering since he holds the state championships there and gets several hundred people on a weekend. There's just no organised cohesive group and even tourneys get all their rules waffled until the day of the event. Would do it myself but between work, a family, new record deal, I barely have enough time to assemble my models. 

The only thing I can truly say is f-ed about the new WD dex is the single troop choice and lack of flyer support. Also one huge advantage people forget is that no one knows the army, so when you show up and move your Immolator out of your deployment zone before first turn or stand Celestine back up and your opponent says "Can he do that!?" You can just laugh.


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## Zion

Arcane said:


> FLGS isn't bad but the owner is more interested in Magic the gathering since he holds the state championships there and gets several hundred people on a weekend. There's just no organised cohesive group and even tourneys get all their rules waffled until the day of the event. Would do it myself but between work, a family, new record deal, I barely have enough time to assemble my models.


Oi. That's still a bad place.



Arcane said:


> The only thing I can truly say is f-ed about the new WD dex is the single troop choice and lack of flyer support. Also one huge advantage people forget is that no one knows the army, so when you show up and move your Immolator out of your deployment zone before first turn or stand Celestine back up and your opponent says "Can he do that!?" You can just laugh.


I've been playing the army since the WD came out and it hardly catches people by surprise with that it does these days. We've started to refer to the games where Celestine doesn't get back up as her "having tea time with the Emperor".

Single troop choice is a bad place to be, and while I have some ideas for how this could be handled they involve new models. For what we've got right now I think GW did okay.

Flyers only became an issue when 6th came out. On the flip side you can have Multi-Meltas running across the board chasing Flyers if you want and the effect is the same as if you were shoot it normally.


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## Pandora

I think a new codex would do wonders for the Sisters. It really turned around the Dark Eldar ... until 6th ed anyway. Maybe it's just my personality; come from playing DE and now CSM, but I'd like to make a Dark Ecclesiarchy army. Something where the rank and file think they still fight in the Emperor's name but their leaders have been corrupted. They claim to fight Heresy but are the true Heretics.


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## SilverTabby

Archon Dan said:


> I find it interesting that "the design studio" is mentioned. Which one? GW likely has more than one, each dedicated to one or more facets of the company and product lines. You could presumably have studios for model design/concept art, illustrations, web design, White Dwarf layout and photography and codex design and layout. The list isn't inclusive and departments could be combined but they still likely have more than one studio. So, which studio is dragging its heels?


All the departments are part of "The Studio". Discussion between each department is actually very good, as all it takes is a 10ft stroll to reach the other department...

The PDF issue is one I've been chatting with my old work colleagues and friends about on a regular basis. The ones in WD were genuinely surprised it hadn't been put out on the website yet. Those who actually know what's going on gave me smiles and changed the subject. I smile back, and am happy to see what happens next. In the meantime, some of us scanned our WD first chance we got, and have a PDF version sitting on the desktop... :wink:


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## Svartmetall

Just wait till you see what Ward's given Celestine...




_...wait, was that out loud?_


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## Magpie_Oz

You're evil Svart


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## Sethis

I'm more worried about what he's going to do with Ephrael Stern...


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## Troublehalf

I'm reading this slightly differently, I believe it means the WD dex for SoB will be altered which is why the design studio were contacted. I don't think it'll mean a new codex, a proper one, just maybe a re-released WD one.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Sisters to get a proper update, but they have more popular armies to update first. Remember after Blood Angels got their WD dex it was 18 months later they got a proper one. Who knows.


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## andrewm9

Troublehalf said:


> I'm reading this slightly differently, I believe it means the WD dex for SoB will be altered which is why the design studio were contacted. I don't think it'll mean a new codex, a proper one, just maybe a re-released WD one.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'd love Sisters to get a proper update, but they have more popular armies to update first. Remember after Blood Angels got their WD dex it was 18 months later they got a proper one. Who knows.


It was longer than that. It was closer to 3 years. You are right though; who knows when Sisters will get a proper update. I think that if they want to keep the codex alive though they need to start doing something more. A little more support wouldn't kill them. Give Sisters an 'official' plastic flyer of there own or a cool fortification at least.


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> All the departments are part of "The Studio". Discussion between each department is actually very good, as all it takes is a 10ft stroll to reach the other department...


And that clears up that question. Thanks Tabby!



SilverTabby said:


> The PDF issue is one I've been chatting with my old work colleagues and friends about on a regular basis. The ones in WD were genuinely surprised it hadn't been put out on the website yet. Those who actually know what's going on gave me smiles and changed the subject. I smile back, and am happy to see what happens next. In the meantime, some of us scanned our WD first chance we got, and have a PDF version sitting on the desktop... :wink:


Well that means (and call this just a gut feeling) we're likely getting some supplements and a light update prior to a real update in FY2014. Granted it's just a thought, but a soft update (couple new things and an iPad release) would allow them to test the waters with new stuff (to see if there is enough interest to satisfy the bean counters) and get the ruleset out there.

Of course this is just me thinking aloud of possibilities. Either way I'll back off in my attempts to harass the studio with my ideas. 

I keep my codex in a binder, and have two back up copies of the WDs they came in just in case.



Svartmetall said:


> Just wait till you see what Ward's given Celestine...
> _...wait, was that out loud?_


I don't know if you read aloud as you type, but seeing as you were enjoying the wine last night....it probably was. :grin:

That said Ward already made it so Celestine is nuke proof (only the EMPEROR himself can actually have her really die, on request) so I don't know what else he could do to her...



Sethis said:


> I'm more worried about what he's going to do with Ephrael Stern...


Seeing as she's a BL character who hasn't appeared in any codex (or even as a WD update) since her creation, I think she'll be "Ephrael Not-Appearing-In-The-Codex Stern". With how damned powerful she was at the place where Daemonfuge ended I can't imagine she'd be fair to play as anything more than a Seraphim anyways (I got her model just for that purpose actually). 



Troublehalf said:


> I'm reading this slightly differently, I believe it means the WD dex for SoB will be altered which is why the design studio were contacted. I don't think it'll mean a new codex, a proper one, just maybe a re-released WD one.


I'm thinking the same. It's likely a soft-update of the WD, with maybe a couple small things added in or tweaked from the last one. I'd like to assume new models may be involved but then again they might just give us existing things as a way of patching in some love. We'll have to wait and see of course.



Troublehalf said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd love Sisters to get a proper update, but they have more popular armies to update first. Remember after Blood Angels got their WD dex it was 18 months later they got a proper one. Who knows.


The problem with the "more popular armies" to update argument is that GW will always have "more popular armies" to update. Sisters are coming though, and I think GW knows they need to be updated instead of left on a shelf with other ideas they've never followed up on



andrewm9 said:


> It was longer than that. It was closer to 3 years. You are right though; who knows when Sisters will get a proper update. I think that if they want to keep the codex alive though they need to start doing something more. A little more support wouldn't kill them. Give Sisters an 'official' plastic flyer of there own or a cool fortification at least.


BA where about 3 years, Chaos Warriors where a few months. We're past the Chaos Warrior window so anything by April 2014 will keep up in the 3 year window of the BA. I could live with that.


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## Sethis

Zion said:


> Seeing as she's a BL character who hasn't appeared in any codex (or even as a WD update) since her creation, I think she'll be "Ephrael Not-Appearing-In-The-Codex Stern". With how damned powerful she was at the place where Daemonfuge ended I can't imagine she'd be fair to play as anything more than a Seraphim anyways (I got her model just for that purpose actually).


This is Matt "Fluff Fucker" Ward, we're talking about, right? :laugh:


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## Tawa

Sethis said:


> "Fluff Fucker"


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Bodo1260

has anyone noticed that the poster with the new WD has no Sisters on it!!!!!!
I feel like I've just been squatted on


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## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> Seeing as she's a BL character who hasn't appeared in any codex (or even as a WD update) since her creation, I think she'll be "Ephrael Not-Appearing-In-The-Codex Stern". With how damned powerful she was at the place where Daemonfuge ended I can't imagine she'd be fair to play as anything more than a Seraphim anyways (I got her model just for that purpose actually).


I have the Stern model that was released (and painted Juan's one that was in WD at the time). She's a Seraphim Superior in my army. Any release of her would likely be around the time of her defeating the Daemons in the abbey, rather than after her Eldar-led pilgramage of "you're working with a filthy Xenos? Burn, heretic" and she would likely just be a Chaos-whupping Seraphim upgrade.


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## Tawa

Bodo1260 said:


> has anyone noticed that the poster with the new WD has no Sisters on it!!!!!!
> I feel like I've just been squatted on


Decembers issue?


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## Bodo1260

the january one... Hobbit special. it has a big fold out poster


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## Tawa

Aah, right. Just curious as I haven't been arsed to get Decembers yet


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## Suijin

A couple months ago there was a rumor of releases for ipad and one for December was SoB.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115271

So hard to say what that release actually is or if anything has changed in their plans in the last 3 months or so, or even if it was real in the first place but from Silver Tabby's response there is something.


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> I have the Stern model that was released (and painted Juan's one that was in WD at the time). She's a Seraphim Superior in my army. Any release of her would likely be around the time of her defeating the Daemons in the abbey, rather than after her Eldar-led pilgramage of "you're working with a filthy Xenos? Burn, heretic" and she would likely just be a Chaos-whupping Seraphim upgrade.


I tracked her down on eBay. She cost me a pretty penny, but I'm happy to have her (even if her leg armor is more than skin tight). 

Either way I'm not holding my breathe to see Stern running around on the table.


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## Archon Dan

Pandora said:


> I think a new codex would do wonders for the Sisters. It really turned around the Dark Eldar ... until 6th ed anyway. Maybe it's just my personality; come from playing DE and now CSM, but I'd like to make a Dark Ecclesiarchy army. Something where the rank and file think they still fight in the Emperor's name but their leaders have been corrupted. They claim to fight Heresy but are the true Heretics.


I think the Ecclesiarchy is one of the few armies that can't easily be made renegade. They are trained to recognize Heresy anywhere and even the lower ranks would notice a corrupted leader. If they still had Inquisitors you might pull it off as few dare question one of the Ordos. But it is an interesting concept. 



SilverTabby said:


> All the departments are part of "The Studio". Discussion between each department is actually very good, as all it takes is a 10ft stroll to reach the other department...
> 
> The PDF issue is one I've been chatting with my old work colleagues and friends about on a regular basis. The ones in WD were genuinely surprised it hadn't been put out on the website yet. Those who actually know what's going on gave me smiles and changed the subject. I smile back, and am happy to see what happens next. In the meantime, some of us scanned our WD first chance we got, and have a PDF version sitting on the desktop... :wink:


Thanks for the clarrification on that. By the quick change in subject, I would guess something is on the horizon. Whether it is a good something, only time will tell. 



Suijin said:


> A couple months ago there was a rumor of releases for ipad and one for December was SoB.
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115271
> 
> So hard to say what that release actually is or if anything has changed in their plans in the last 3 months or so, or even if it was real in the first place but from Silver Tabby's response there is something.


Any release/update is a step in the right direction. I feel the same about the BT rumor of a WD update. At least they are getting new point costs and updated rules.


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> I tracked her down on eBay. She cost me a pretty penny, but I'm happy to have her (even if her leg armor is more than skin tight).
> 
> Either way I'm not holding my breathe to see Stern running around on the table.


 could you post some pics? It's hard to find any decent ones of the model on the web.


----------



## Creator of Chaos

Honestly I would be happy if they just released plastic troops with options (You could make most units from this with some work anyway), A digital codex release and allowed me to make my cannoness have a jumppack. Do that and I would rush out to buy some new sisters and I'd be motivated to create a paint scheme for the ones I already have. 

Just a question tho. How long have sisters had to wait for a proper update? Surely it cant be longer then the Oldcrons record 11 years. Sooner or later they will need a necron/dark eldar level update to return to relavency.


----------



## Necrosis

Define proper releash. Cause in my book, they haven't had a proper release since 3rd edition. That being said, many people will disagree with me.


----------



## Arcane

I believe the Witch Hunter codex came out in 2003 for 3rd edition. And then there was a rerelease in 2004 which had some minor language fixes but was essentially the same book. I have the 2004 one and played happily with it for many years. You can still download it from GW here: CODEX WITCHHUNTERS

IMO it is a better codex and far more powerful. You could have a Canoness with jump pack and 2++ invulnerable save who was immune to the first instant death wound lol! Was fairly easy to make a list with 11 Immolators... You could use faith points to make your flamers AP1. Better yet, there was more than 1 troop choice. Ever try to make a double FOC list with the White Dwarf Codex? You end up with 500+ points of craptastic troops!


----------



## Creator of Chaos

wow thanks for the download, it is an impressive codex with alot of options and tactics. definatly better then the white drawf Dex (The only thing that got better was seraphim and Celestine) I hope I can find a physical copy somewhere as I think it would be cool to have in my collection. Anyway 9 years waiting, while not quite the equivilent of necrons entering the great sleep it is alarmingly close. I hope there not trying to beat the necron record because that would just be sad. Sisters really need a proper release or at-least plastic troops and seraphim. Anything to show the fire is still burning but since I cant wait that long I've decided I'm going to make a jump-pack cannoness anyway because I've always wanted 1 even if it is illegal. 

Thanks again


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> could you post some pics? It's hard to find any decent ones of the model on the web.


Here are the pictures from the auction itself. If you want anymore I'll see what I can do. 





















Creator of Chaos said:


> Honestly I would be happy if they just released plastic troops with options (You could make most units from this with some work anyway), A digital codex release and allowed me to make my cannoness have a jumppack. Do that and I would rush out to buy some new sisters and I'd be motivated to create a paint scheme for the ones I already have.


Plastic troops are most of what most Sisters ask for. Having a readily available rule set is the other.



Creator of Chaos said:


> Just a question tho. How long have sisters had to wait for a proper update? Surely it cant be longer then the Oldcrons record 11 years. Sooner or later they will need a necron/dark eldar level update to return to relavency.


I'd say since 2nd Edition when they got their original models and the actual Sisters of Battle codex. 

I know several people feel rather strongly about the Witch Hunters codex and I will admit it was a decent codex. But it wasn't the right direction for the Sisters. Shoehorning in the Inquisition didn't really sell the Inquisition like GW wanted it to (hence no Deathwatch), and it watered down the Ecclesiarchal feel of the army. Now you could still run pure Sisters (I know I did), but you have to wall off half the options in the codex to do so.

And while Sisters haven't waited as long as Necrons between codex releases for rules updates, they've been waiting longer for model updates. And perhaps it speaks to the strength of the models that they still fit in fairly well among the newer models despite their age, but when everyone else is getting new plastics or even Finecast it's hard to not feel a little bitter about not getting an updated range.



Necrosis said:


> Define proper releash. Cause in my book, they haven't had a proper release since 3rd edition. That being said, many people will disagree with me.


I will agree we haven't had a full codex release (I've started to think of WD codexes as "soft releases", kind of a beta rule set while they work on the rest of the rules), but I'll contend Sisters weren't REALLY updated in Codex Witchhunters. They gained the Exorcist and Celestine, and changed some rules (and LOST most of the other characters they had) and then everything else was pure Inquisition. For anyone who played straight Sisters that was likely a kick in the teeth.



Arcane said:


> I believe the Witch Hunter codex came out in 2003 for 3rd edition. And then there was a rerelease in 2004 which had some minor language fixes but was essentially the same book. I have the 2004 one and played happily with it for many years. You can still download it from GW here: CODEX WITCHHUNTERS


A little eBay hunting should net you a hardcopy pretty cheap. For $15.64 USD I just found a copy (which makes my second of these honestly) with the WD extra missions that were released around that time. 



Arcane said:


> IMO it is a better codex and far more powerful. You could have a Canoness with jump pack and 2++ invulnerable save who was immune to the first instant death wound lol! Was fairly easy to make a list with 11 Immolators... You could use faith points to make your flamers AP1. Better yet, there was more than 1 troop choice. Ever try to make a double FOC list with the White Dwarf Codex? You end up with 500+ points of craptastic troops!


Faith powers where what made the 3rd Ed codex so strong honestly. They were easy to spam and make it so even your basic Sisters could have 3++ saves with rending attacks (not AP1 like Arcane said, Rending. Slightly different). You had to buy every Superior in your list, and squads where generally a little bit more expensive then than now, and Immolator spam was the build of choice, though I don't think it'd hold up in this edition anyways (this notion is based mostly due to the way Razorback spam has suffered), and you overpaid for most things when you compared it to the newer codexes.

What people forget is that when the WD was pending to come out (and the shit-storm was brewing as rumors where countering rumors on what would come out) that just about every die hard Sister player was chomping on the bit for a new codex. We wanted the new toys, cheaper options and the like. Some of us adapted to the new codex, others didn't even give it a real try.

In 5th Edition I'd take 3-4 blocks of 10 Sisters (1 Melta, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Superior with a Power Weapon and Melta Bombs) because of the number of Objective based missions. In 6th I'd still take the same and likely bump it to at least 6 units in a Double FOC. Sisters are reasonably solid. Good saves, good BS, good weapon selection. They excel at punishing you for letting them get close, punish you for trying to charge them and generally punish you when you make mistakes. Playing the mission (which is usually objective based for 5/6 of them) is how Sisters win. And against Marines we can often table them along the way.

But of course our "underpowered" codex must be underpowered to beat the likes of Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and tie or win against Venomspam Dark Eldar (which used to table most Marine armies in 5th. T3 actually became a bonus since it meant we were getting wounded on 4s, not 3s versus the build which meant more Sisters than usual would survive each round to shoot back). Now, I admit it's limited in scope (it only has one basic build with a couple small options, though 6th has broadened that a bit), but I'm not going to claim to be some uber-player that won a lot because I was insanely better than other people. It's frankly that the Sisters are better than people give them credit for.


----------



## Arcane

Thank you for the images. Would love to get one for a Seraphim Superior but with Christmas coming the bank account won't allow for it :/

My bad it's been a couple years now since I played Witch Hunters. I just remember splatting a flamer template down on a squad of Marines and laughing when they realized they didn't get ANY saves. Flamers don't even seem worth taking in the current WD dex. 

The problem is now that most any SoB model is 10 dollars! I can eat for 2 days on 10 dollars! Their squattiness is even worse (they look like dwarves now thanks to height/size creep in GW's models). At this rate I'm afraid when they do release plastic sisters that they will look so different than the current models that we will all have to buy completely new armies. 

I agree though that the current codex is pretty good, just extremely rigid and the Elite section is a disappointment.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Thank you for the images. Would love to get one for a Seraphim Superior but with Christmas coming the bank account won't allow for it :/


Can't blame you there. Mine ran me a bit over $100USD.



Arcane said:


> My bad it's been a couple years now since I played Witch Hunters. I just remember splatting a flamer template down on a squad of Marines and laughing when they realized they didn't get ANY saves. Flamers don't even seem worth taking in the current WD dex.


It's cool. I was spending some time going over the 2nd Ed Codex, 3rd Ed Codex, 5th Ed WD Codex, and as many WD articles I could get my hands on....so I proved



Arcane said:


> The problem is now that most any SoB model is 10 dollars! I can eat for 2 days on 10 dollars! Their squattiness is even worse (they look like dwarves now thanks to height/size creep in GW's models). At this rate I'm afraid when they do release plastic sisters that they will look so different than the current models that we will all have to buy completely new armies.


I agree they're a little short, but this puts them in a realistic scale with the Marines....so basically they're the only properly in scale army. :grin:



Arcane said:


> I agree though that the current codex is pretty good, just extremely rigid and the Elite section is a disappointment.


I agree with everything but the Elites. All the non-Repentia Elites are a dissapointment. Repentia are AWESOME. You get them into combat they make Terminators cry. Even if you don't, people will spend time trying to kill them, and not kill your other units. And for what they do, they're pretty cheap.

About the only thing they could do is drop them down to 14-15 pts each to make up for the CC nerf of 6th and I'd be happy.


----------



## Arcane

Repentia are great but first you have to run them on the ground to be assault effective (and not losing a turn from disembarking, I used to run my Rhino backward as a poorman's assault vehicle lol). So assuming you don't get shot to pieces, you then have to survive overwatch, then survive going at init1, which things like Lightning Claws, Blood Talons, and Power Weapons in general will make you regret. So, assuming you survive all of this (or don't and use the faith ability) they are good. 

But it's easier to just take Death Cult Assassins and get 50 power weapon attacks which reroll to hit, 5++ save and FnP. Or even better, take Coteaz as an ally and run another squad of them which is scoring and are Str 7 with Power Mauls and Hammerhand. Sure you can't take out Monoliths and Landraiders but that's what Meltas are for. 

But I think we've probably discussed this to death already several times -_- We need a new codex!


----------



## LukeValantine

I am still sad that the SoB's didn't get a codex. When I heard that they where going to get a update I was contemplating branching out and actually playing a none chaos army, but the minidex just wasn't enough to pull me in. I guess I will stick with my 13pt chaos marines, at least till a real codex is released.


----------



## Suijin

The basic SoB troops seem overpriced now(125 pts for 10) with being able to get 10 CSM for 130 pts, with better WS, S, T, I.

Guess we will have to wait another month or 2 to see if anything happens.

I never bought Ephreal Stern from Ebay due to them likely being copies and not the original. It seems unlikly those multiple sellers on Ebay have had at least 5 limited edition models each without any certificates at all around. I have tracked them somewhat, but for what they were I didn't spend for it.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> The basic SoB troops seem overpriced now(125 pts for 10) with being able to get 10 CSM for 130 pts, with better WS, S, T, I.


They seemed overpriced when Grey Hunters came out too. But people forget that Sisters get a free I save and USRs that can be triggered for free as well. It doesn't make it perfectly priced mind you, but better than what people claim.



Suijin said:


> Guess we will have to wait another month or 2 to see if anything happens.


Perhaps. My money is on Q1-Q2 2014 personally. 



Suijin said:


> I never bought Ephreal Stern from Ebay due to them likely being copies and not the original. It seems unlikly those multiple sellers on Ebay have had at least 5 limited edition models each without any certificates at all around. I have tracked them somewhat, but for what they were I didn't spend for it.


Perhaps, this seller only had the one listed. And while I can't claim it's authentic, but if it is a copy they did an excellent job casting her as all the detail is clean and crisp. There was no Inquisitor Silas Hand, but I didn't really want him anyways. I'm happy with having her in my collection and that's the important part to me.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> They seemed overpriced when Grey Hunters came out too. But people forget that Sisters get a free I save and USRs that can be triggered for free as well. It doesn't make it perfectly priced mind you, but better than what people claim.


The 6++ save is quirky and I like it, but let's be absolutely honest: you will _never_ rely on it. The best it can do is make it so that one or two out of 10 models survive an AP 3 pie plate, or that you take a melta shot, save it, do a little dance and go PHBBBBBBT at your opponent and then die to assault.

The USRs are also incredibly unreliable, they're not really free in that you get a limited amount of resources per turn to use them that does not scale with point size, is randomly determined and only works on _your_ turn, even though some units (hello Repentia) would really, really need to be able to try and pull them off on the opponent's turn as well.

To say nothing on how you are pretty much forced to play Unique characters if you don't want to have an HQ slot wasted in utter suckage. A Canoness for the price of a Chaos Lord? Certainly a recipe for success!

Ok, I admit it's just me not wanting to field Unique characters, but it still sucks to be forced to do that or fall back on overpriced crap.

Sure, you can win, sure, basic sisters are a more solid troop choice than Guardians, but this doesn't change the fact that we somehow lost half our wargear from the previous codex, can no longer put jump packs on the canoness, have no assault vehicles, no long-range anti-tank, and no dedicated CC unit.

But I guess that in the end what pisses me off about the transition from Witch Hunters and the WDdex is that in doing away with the inquisition, we accidentally jettinsoned a good chunk of our wargear and were left with, well, what we were forced to play around with anyways if we chose to go pure sisters in the WH codex.

That's just lazy, if there weren't allies in 6e I wouldn't even bother with what little sisters I have.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> The 6++ save is quirky and I like it, but let's be absolutely honest: you will _never_ rely on it. The best it can do is make it so that one or two out of 10 models survive an AP 3 pie plate, or that you take a melta shot, save it, do a little dance and go PHBBBBBBT at your opponent and then die to assault.
> 
> The USRs are also incredibly unreliable, they're not really free in that you get a limited amount of resources per turn to use them that does not scale with point size, is randomly determined and only works on _your_ turn, even though some units (hello Repentia) would really, really need to be able to try and pull them off on the opponent's turn as well.
> 
> To say nothing on how you are pretty much forced to play Unique characters if you don't want to have an HQ slot wasted in utter suckage. A Canoness for the price of a Chaos Lord? Certainly a recipe for success!
> 
> Ok, I admit it's just me not wanting to field Unique characters, but it still sucks to be forced to do that or fall back on overpriced crap.
> 
> Sure, you can win, sure, basic sisters are a more solid troop choice than Guardians, but this doesn't change the fact that we somehow lost half our wargear from the previous codex, can no longer put jump packs on the canoness, have no assault vehicles, no long-range anti-tank, and no dedicated CC unit.
> 
> But I guess that in the end what pisses me off about the transition from Witch Hunters and the WDdex is that in doing away with the inquisition, we accidentally jettinsoned a good chunk of our wargear and were left with, well, what we were forced to play around with anyways if we chose to go pure sisters in the WH codex.
> 
> That's just lazy, if there weren't allies in 6e I wouldn't even bother with what little sisters I have.


I can't disagree with anything here, save for the laziness comment. We don't know what kind of timeline was behind this thing to get it out the door. Either way, it's here, it's what we got and I don't hate it. I won't claim that I'm paticularly excited by it, but I think we came out pretty good for what we've got. Especially considering Cruddace's track record for his rulebooks...


----------



## Arcane

Was just reading about Sanctuary 101. Is it bad that reading interesting fluff like this really makes me frustrated that GW has let this army stagnate for 10+ years? While the WD update was nice for gameplay, let's face it, they didn't do anything to develop the fluff and background or depth of the force. THAT is the big problem with the WD dex. It actually shrinks, limits and obscures more of their army than helps fill it out. 

The whole special characters thing is the real let down to me. The SoB need heroes! Instead we have the same dead/ghost Celestine character which aids in the SoB's defeatist attitude and a couple of old guys with terrible models and non-existant back story. Would it have been so hard to make Canoness McBadass, the unique HQ upgrade from Planet McBadass who has a shiny sword that kicks butt?


----------



## Necrosis

Or how about a Canoness with a jump pack armed with awesome weapons and makes seraphims troops.


----------



## Arcane

Haha YES! I really want that too... or really anyone who can later the FOC since there is only 1 troop option. The lack of customization even with the existing models is really mind boggling. It's like the models are all there but they just didn't even try. I know FW was hiring writers and artists lately... why isn't GW also?


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Was just reading about Sanctuary 101. Is it bad that reading interesting fluff like this really makes me frustrated that GW has let this army stagnate for 10+ years? While the WD update was nice for gameplay, let's face it, they didn't do anything to develop the fluff and background or depth of the force. THAT is the big problem with the WD dex. It actually shrinks, limits and obscures more of their army than helps fill it out.
> 
> The whole special characters thing is the real let down to me. The SoB need heroes! Instead we have the same dead/ghost Celestine character which aids in the SoB's defeatist attitude and a couple of old guys with terrible models and non-existant back story. Would it have been so hard to make Canoness McBadass, the unique HQ upgrade from Planet McBadass who has a shiny sword that kicks butt?


I want Saint Praxedes back. When the planet she was on came under Tyranid invasion she took the fight to the xenos to buy the PDF time to head the evacuation. During this she KILLED A HIVE TYRANT IN CLOSE COMBAT. Not satisfied with this level of extreme badassery (especially since she was an ordinary human an not some post-human Space Marine) she then led her Sisters into battle with the swarm to let the PDF itself escape since there wasn't enough room for both of them to go. When she was last seen both she and her fellow Sisters where STILL KILLING TYRANIDS. 

This was so impressive that it spawn a legend that she and the rest of the Sisters may have actually survived and might be fighting the Hive Fleet from the inside.

THAT is the kind of character we need in 40K again. One who kicks ass, takes names and puts forth their duty over themselves (because we all know the Ultramarines wouldn't let their Leadership go out like that and would have gotten them on the aircraft. This is why Sisters are better. We rock WAY harder).

EDIT:


Arcane said:


> Haha YES! I really want that too... or really anyone who can later the FOC since there is only 1 troop option. The lack of customization even with the existing models is really mind boggling. It's like the models are all there but they just didn't even try. I know FW was hiring writers and artists lately... why isn't GW also?


Because GW isn't expanding like FW is at the moment. FW has started the Heresy stuff, the Fantasy Forge stuff, and is continuing the regular workload. They need more people to keep their production schedule up so they can keep bringing new stuff out.


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> Because GW isn't expanding like FW is at the moment. FW has started the Heresy stuff, the Fantasy Forge stuff, and is continuing the regular workload. They need more people to keep their production schedule up so they can keep bringing new stuff out.


Funny thing, shouldn't this be what GW is doing? Instead they are releasing a bunch of "limited edition" models and books for yet more Space Marines. Meanwhile in the last couple years have shrunk their presence outside of the UK and dropped support for sanctioned events most everywhere... seems like they are shrinking if anything to me. 

There's no excuse though. Adding unique characters without models would take about 10 more lines of text and has precedence in many existing codex. Is GW suffering from a shortage on ink? Maybe they were worried that keeping wargear on the canoness would fudge the formatting of the paragraphs in the WD dex. Or more likely the Execs gave the writers a strict page limit and denied any request for additional space (hey paper is expensive!)

What's even worse is since FW is owned by GW... GW IS (see red text) hiring more artists, writers and developers... just not for their core product. Instead it's just for a small, unofficiallly supported line of models and books which... take up more paper and ink... :headbutt:


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Funny thing, shouldn't this be what GW is doing? Instead they are releasing a bunch of "limited edition" models and books for yet more Space Marines. Meanwhile in the last couple years have shrunk their presence outside of the UK and dropped support for sanctioned events most everywhere... seems like they are shrinking if anything to me.


That's something I've been wondering, and recently I ran into a thread by a former GW store manager from the UK who had been working for pre-LotR to just recently when he'd quit. Very long story short to UK seems to be doing all sorts of crazy shit too, and the guy expressed concern that it seems like a lot of it's being done to window dress the profits to make them look better than ever. The reason for this he stated was that he believes Kirby may be trying to push the stock price higher still (which is already at 667.50 GBP a share) before the inevitable drop in sales when the Hobbit stops being popular, by which time he'll have dumped all his 2,131,394 shares.

Strangely though, this was not something the man said would kill the company (no doomsaying there), but he did say he felt that the act would likely cause a series of firings, primarily amongst the higher staff (as Kirby wouldn't be around to protect his favorite cockgarglers and couldn't just keep shuffling them from position to position when they fail at their job), and a likely delay on products.

The flipside was the poisonous leadership of Kirby wouldn't be there anymore and he was positive that when this finally happens that it'll be painful, but it'll be a good hurting. The company will be able to come out of it better and hopefully with someone at the helm who actually LISTENS to people instead of claiming that they are the only ones who can know how to steer the company because they've been doing so for a while.

Take that with all the salt in the world, but if it's a crazy conspiracy theory, well it's one that actually makes a lot of sense.



Arcane said:


> There's no excuse though. Adding unique characters without models would take about 10 more lines of text and has precedence in many existing codex. Is GW suffering from a shortage on ink? Maybe they were worried that keeping wargear on the canoness would fudge the formatting of the paragraphs in the WD dex. Or more likely the Execs gave the writers a strict page limit and denied any request for additional space (hey paper is expensive!)


WD dexes (like what we got, and what Blood Angels got, not like the expansion stuff the Daemons recently got) don't get new models. So if they were out of an old model or for some reason didn't have a mold for one they didn't include it. I'm sure a similiar reasoning was used for why they didn't include a Jump Pack Canoness, they didn't have anything to use for it. And with CHS trying to play stupid games and their IP being fucked with, I can't blame them for not wanting to release things without models anymore.



Arcane said:


> What's even worse is since FW is owned by GW... GW IS (see red text) hiring more artists, writers and developers... just not for their core product. Instead it's just for a small, unofficiallly supported line of models and books which... take up more paper and ink... :headbutt:


My understanding is that FW is -almost- like a separate company due to how they operate and make money. So when they started making money even faster than normal with the release of the Horus Heresy stuff, I think they realized that things were a lot bigger than they had anticipated and this meant they were going to need more people to keep their regular production schedule up (especially now that they've started Imperial Armour Second Edition, which basically means EVERYTHING is getting a rewrite). I don't know how many people work for FW, especially right this moment, but I do know that it seems like GW has the right number of Devs for what they want to do right now.

But that's just conjecture.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Zion said:


> Not satisfied with this level of extreme badassery (especially since she was an ordinary human an not some post-human Space Marine) she then led her Sisters into battle with the swarm to let the PDF itself escape since there wasn't enough room for both of them to go. When she was last seen both she and her fellow Sisters where STILL KILLING TYRANIDS. This was so impressive that it spawn a legend that she and the rest of the Sisters may have actually survived and might be fighting the Hive Fleet from the inside. THAT is the kind of character we need in 40K again. One who kicks ass, takes names and puts forth their duty over themselves (because we all know the Ultramarines wouldn't let their Leadership go out like that.


This is why the Martyrdom rule was so damn cool....we got stronger and more inspired as our heroes died heroically.


----------



## Zion

Purge the Heretic said:


> This is why the Martyrdom rule was so damn cool....we got stronger and more inspired as our heroes died heroically.


We didn't have Saint Praxedes at the time we had Martyrdom. The Saint only appears in the 2nd Edition codex and was shuffled off along with every other character to make room for the Inquisition (and Celestine). 

Martyrdom also led to the tactic of people allocating wounds to their Superiors in an attempt to eke out a few extra Faith points here and there mid to late game. This meant they rarely died heroically and often fell to the bullet if a lowly Grot.


----------



## SilverTabby

Re.Tom Kirby - that manager had obviously never met Tom, talked to him about the Hobby or the long term plans for the company.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Re.Tom Kirby - that manager had obviously never met Tom, talked to him about the Hobby or the long term plans for the company.


He claimed to have bumped into him once but did not talk to him.

The thing is that when you look at the actions of the company (the massive price raises, the lack of replcig store employees whe they leave, firing whole shops save for the manager, and now the numerous Limited Editios comig out) lately it looks like a leadership that is trying to drive a profit and raise stock prices by any means necessary.

I'm not claiming this to be true, but I am saying there does seem to be a pattern there that correlates with the claims being made. I don't know what Kirby has planned, or what kind of guy he is, but there is something going on in all this that makes me wonder what is really going on in all this.


----------



## Tawa

We've just had our manager change yet again a couple of weeks ago. Meh, nice guy don't get me wrong, but it seems you just get used to the staff and build up a bit of a rapport and then they "go to 'x' store"....


----------



## Arcane

Wow Zion that is some juicy info... seems far fetched, and who knows if it's true or what will happen. There are still 2 more Hobbit movies so if anything it seems like that wouldn't happen for another 6 years or so when it's all been _petered_ out (omg I love puns haha). 

So I haven't got a chance to look at the new Chaos book and probably won't since it's not my cup of tea, but are there any characters or units without models? I would be really surprised if there wasn't... So saying this whole CHS stuff is causing them not to want to release new characters/units without models doesn't stand up unless that entire codex has a finished model line. Also, it still doesn't cover for the existing codex which are lacking models in the last couple years. Mordrak, Valeria, the billion units in the Dark Eldar codex... there are so many gaping holes in their model range. I just can't see that as a valid excuse for not having a named Celestian character in the WD Dex which uses a generic model much like Mordrak does.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Arcane said:


> Wow Zion that is some juicy info... seems far fetched, and who knows if it's true or what will happen. There are still 2 more Hobbit movies so if anything it seems like that wouldn't happen for another 6 years or so when it's all been _petered_ out (omg I love puns haha).
> 
> So I haven't got a chance to look at the new Chaos book and probably won't since it's not my cup of tea, but are there any characters or units without models? I would be really surprised if there wasn't... So saying this whole CHS stuff is causing them not to want to release new characters/units without models doesn't stand up unless that entire codex has a finished model line. Also, it still doesn't cover for the existing codex which are lacking models in the last couple years. Mordrak, Valeria, the billion units in the Dark Eldar codex... there are so many gaping holes in their model range. I just can't see that as a valid excuse for not having a named Celestian character in the WD Dex which uses a generic model much like Mordrak does.


I think everything in the new Chaos Dex has a model, I could be wrong but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that isn't covered by either existing minis, new releases or what's contained the DV box set.


----------



## Suijin

Zion said:


> Perhaps, this seller only had the one listed. And while I can't claim it's authentic, but if it is a copy they did an excellent job casting her as all the detail is clean and crisp. There was no Inquisitor Silas Hand, but I didn't really want him anyways. I'm happy with having her in my collection and that's the important part to me.


Just hard to believe they had one to sell and then a week later have another, with still no certificates in sight. Multiple sellers (which may actually be the same person or associates) also keep selling them. I have seen the same people selling them for years without ever a certificate of authenticity.

Don't get me wrong, I would have bought one, they just didn't go for cheap enough. I would have paid more though with the cert.


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> He claimed to have bumped into him once but did not talk to him.
> 
> The thing is that when you look at the actions of the company (the massive price raises, the lack of replcig store employees whe they leave, firing whole shops save for the manager, and now the numerous Limited Editios comig out) lately it looks like a leadership that is trying to drive a profit and raise stock prices by any means necessary.
> 
> I'm not claiming this to be true, but I am saying there does seem to be a pattern there that correlates with the claims being made. I don't know what Kirby has planned, or what kind of guy he is, but there is something going on in all this that makes me wonder what is really going on in all this.


Yes, he's trying to drive a profit - but not a short-term one. All the spare cash at present is going into loan repayments and clearing debt. Given this doesn't leave much for the stockholders afterwards, other things are needed too. However, Tom has often stated he doesn't really care about the stockholders who have only a few shares, or are in it to make a quick buck on selling on the shares. He's doing this for the long-term guys, who have the big chunks and understand the 'long picture'. Many of whom are actually in the higher levels of GW themselves. 

How much of this was rhetoric I don't know, but he's got the long-term interests of his company at heart and isn't likely to sell up and run. He's also made comment of not retiring until he's happy he's got a successor who similarly has the interests of the company at heart rather than someone looking to get rich and sell on. This is why he's careful about who got a controlling interest, and who sells shares to whom to ensure that interest stays somewhere that's not a quickbuck merchant.

I'm not saying I approve of GW tactics, etc, or that he isn't also making a bucketload of cash compared to his employees (he is a CEO after all), I'm just saying he's not in it solely for the cash.


----------



## Necrosis

Just a quick question silvertabby, how long has he been in his position.


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Just a quick question silvertabby, how long has he been in his position.


Who, Tom? He's been running things longer than I was working at HQ, over 15 years now at least. I believe he took over sometime before I started working in Retail back in the mid 90's, way before GW went plc.

Edit: A quick Google search later and - According to this article from Jan 2010 he bought out GW in 1989, making it 24 years next year. Sounds about right to me.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Yes, he's trying to drive a profit - but not a short-term one. All the spare cash at present is going into loan repayments and clearing debt. Given this doesn't leave much for the stockholders afterwards, other things are needed too. However, Tom has often stated he doesn't really care about the stockholders who have only a few shares, or are in it to make a quick buck on selling on the shares. He's doing this for the long-term guys, who have the big chunks and understand the 'long picture'. Many of whom are actually in the higher levels of GW themselves.


I'm not against companies making money, in fact I rather prefer that they do so they're still around a decade or more from now. The thing that happens though when there isn't any real communication with the customers we don't know what's going on and feel like we're getting bent over for our wallets. 

That could just be perception, it's hard to know from the outside.



SilverTabby said:


> How much of this was rhetoric I don't know, but he's got the long-term interests of his company at heart and isn't likely to sell up and run. He's also made comment of not retiring until he's happy he's got a successor who similarly has the interests of the company at heart rather than someone looking to get rich and sell on. This is why he's careful about who got a controlling interest, and who sells shares to whom to ensure that interest stays somewhere that's not a quickbuck merchant.


The thing is people change. They get worn down and don't want to deal with things anymore. I'm not saying that's what is happening, but I won't rule it out as something that could occur.



SilverTabby said:


> I'm not saying I approve of GW tactics, etc, or that he isn't also making a bucketload of cash compared to his employees (he is a CEO after all), I'm just saying he's not in it solely for the cash.


He wasn't, but I still say that him changing his point of view is still on the table.


----------



## Arcane

Well I didn't win the 550 million power ball lottery last week so looks like my plan to buy out GW and reorganize it will have to wait. :ireful2:


----------



## Tawa

I got nothing on last weeks lottery either. You'd think after fourteen years I'd have won something.....

Still, if I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all :laugh:


----------



## nevynxxx

Tawa said:


> I got nothing on last weeks lottery either. You'd think after fourteen years I'd have won something.....


<off topic rant>

The odds of winning a lettery are actually worked out backwards. They decide how often, on average they want people to win. Usually 1 person win the jackpot per week. Then they guess how many will play, and put it at that. They then tweak as they go forwards.

For this reason the UK national lottery was set at 15million to 1 odds for the jackpot.

If you play every week for 14 years, say 100 times, that's 52*14*100= 72,800 times in your fourteen years. So the chances you'd have one once are around 206:1, or less than half a percent. Euromillions, or any US wide lottery will be even more remote....


----------



## Tawa

nevynxxx said:


> <off topic rant>
> 
> The odds of winning a lettery are actually worked out backwards. They decide how often, on average they want people to win. Usually 1 person win the jackpot per week. Then they guess how many will play, and put it at that. They then tweak as they go forwards.
> 
> For this reason the UK national lottery was set at 15million to 1 odds for the jackpot.
> 
> If you play every week for 14 years, say 100 times, that's 52*14*100= 72,800 times in your fourteen years. So the chances you'd have one once are around 206:1, or less than half a percent. Euromillions, or any US wide lottery will be even more remote....


I just died a little.... :cray:


----------



## Troublehalf

I should put in some possibly disturbing news. I bought the new Crusade of Fire expansion book for 40k. Now, this book is all about 'fun' things, like one on one death matches in Commorgath using cards at the back of the book and dog fights and stuff.

Well, have a guess which army is missing army specific rules? 

Every other race is there, BT, GK, SW, BA, DA as well as generic SM. So, this either means they have completely removed SoB from the game and won't be doing anything with them, ever. Or they are not sure what to do with them as they don't technically have flyers or whatever. This is worrying though.


----------



## Zion

Troublehalf said:


> I should put in some possibly disturbing news. I bought the new Crusade of Fire expansion book for 40k. Now, this book is all about 'fun' things, like one on one death matches in Commorgath using cards at the back of the book and dog fights and stuff.
> 
> Well, have a guess which army is missing army specific rules?
> 
> Every other race is there, BT, GK, SW, BA, DA as well as generic SM. So, this either means they have completely removed SoB from the game and won't be doing anything with them, ever. Or they are not sure what to do with them as they don't technically have flyers or whatever. This is worrying though.


Sisters don't have a flyer and are farther out on getting any kind of release right now.

The thing I got out of those flyer rules is that they seem to be giving something to the Templars. Perhaps that's what their rumored WD update will be, a couple of units to wet people's appetites and then a full release later.


----------



## Necrosis

Troublehalf said:


> I should put in some possibly disturbing news. I bought the new Crusade of Fire expansion book for 40k. Now, this book is all about 'fun' things, like one on one death matches in Commorgath using cards at the back of the book and dog fights and stuff.
> 
> Well, have a guess which army is missing army specific rules?
> 
> Every other race is there, BT, GK, SW, BA, DA as well as generic SM. So, this either means they have completely removed SoB from the game and won't be doing anything with them, ever. Or they are not sure what to do with them as they don't technically have flyers or whatever. This is worrying though.


Or maybe this is good news, gw doesn't want to reveal the new toys that sisters are getting and thus left them out. What I'm really trying to say is, just cause they're not included doesn't mean anything is happening.


----------



## boreas

Necrosis said:


> Or maybe this is good news, gw doesn't want to reveal the new toys that sisters are getting and thus left them out. What I'm really trying to say is, just cause they're not included doesn't mean anything is happening.


No, but added to the fact that sisters were never added to anything goes to show that those lottery odds up there seem better than me seeing an SoB codex in this lifetime...


----------



## Necrosis

boreas said:


> No, but added to the fact that sisters were never added to anything goes to show that those lottery odds up there seem better than me seeing an SoB codex in this lifetime...


Aside from the fact that they got an entire 2 pages in the BRB which is more then some armies can say.


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> No, but added to the fact that sisters were never added to anything goes to show that those lottery odds up there seem better than me seeing an SoB codex in this lifetime...


I'm going to be frank. Very frank. I'm sorry if anyone gets upset about this, but this is one of those things that pisses me off.

KNOCK IT OFF.

1. Sisters are not getting Squatted. There has been PLENTY of hints through various sources that they are being worked on. GW knows to successfully reboot a codex like they did with Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Gray Knights that they need something GOOD to get us to crack open our wallets.

2. The Sisters, while not updated often have seen 2 full codex releases and I've heard of up to THREE different Chapter Approved codex books for them. This spans from 2nd edition through 5th. That means that while they don't get updated often as we like, and certianly not in plastic, they do get looked at and are on the dev's minds (even if their biggest supporter, Andy Hoare is no longer there). This means that there is likely a binder of notes floating around GW HQ with ideas. 

3. Everytime someone cries about how mistreated the Sisters are two things happen: 1) my blood pressure goes up, 2) the respect other army players have for us goes down THAT much more. 

4. I've become so sick of being assossiated with the whinging and the moaning of how poor off the Sisters are that I've decided to put my army away and start Vostroyan Guard. Why? Because it's better than being accused of being another self-entitled fanboy on the internet who thinks GW owes him something.

Now I get it. I really do. I want new stuff for my army as much as EVERYONE else. But there is literally no point in crying about it on the internet. If you REALLY feel strongly that you're being overlooked as a source of money for your Sisters then you can write Tom Kirby and explain to him why you're not buying stuff from him.

OR you can stop acting like the world is ending (and if it is, so what? What can we do to even prevent that anyways?) and pony up some cash and start building your Sisters army, go online and find yourself the rules you need and have fun. The more we SUPPORT this army the more GW will know that we want them to do stuff with it. You vote with your wallet, not with whinging on the internet.


----------



## boreas

Dude, no point in getting your BP up... I'm just stating a fact: SoB have got nothing from GW in years. 2 pages in the BRB!? So what. This army WAS ignored in most (all?) extensions. I love the fluff, I love the models, but the cold hard truth is that GW is giving this army no love... Man, this whole thread is a proof by it's title: how hard is it to put some frakking PDFs on their website???

So SoB not getting squatted? I'm happy that your so sure, but the real life is that nothing is sure. Upper management can pull the plug on any project if the effort (investment) is higher that it's worth (profit)... I'm not whining that GW is so mean to me, I'm just telling what I read in GW's actions of the past few years...

Now, SoB were my first army. They are the reason I play WH40k. But I sold my army and moved on, because even in the world of tiny space-fighting figurines reality has caught up with me. That's why even if you go all "caps-lock" on me, I won't knock it off...


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> Dude, no point in getting your BP up... _Too late. Call it an automatic response at this point. You have to consider just how many times I run across this a day because I'm looking for things related to the Sisters. _I'm just stating a fact: SoB have got nothing from GW in years. _At this point in time neither have Tau, Eldar, Orks, Ultramarines, or Chaos Daemons. And while that last one might be in the chute we've at least a rules update that made Acts of Faith easier to use (if a bit less powerful, they still work fine) and explain, dropped the allies rules that would have caused problems when combined with 6th edition and dropped all that Inquisitorial crap that was shoe-horned in during 3rd (YES I know some people liked it, but you can do it better using Inquisitorial Henchmen anyways)._ 2 pages in the BRB!? _Beats a couple short sentences in 5th edition. Also it was a picture of the 2nd Edition codex cover, a page of background and two pages of models. _So what. _Meanwhile Black Templar players have coronaries everytime someone points out that they got a handful of models filed under "Space Marines"._ This army WAS ignored in most (all?) extensions. _And the fact that they've been ignored in past expansions is proof to me that this isn't anything to fear. It's not a new change, it's just them not mucking with things that they don't have anything to work with. _I love the fluff, I love the models, but the cold hard truth is that GW is giving this army no love... _So expanding the Ecclesiarchy part of the army back so we have more than Celestine as an SC, adding more pages to the army showcase section to show off Sisters models and fiction and making sure that we at least saw a partial rules update (even if it wasn't perfect, it's functional and has a damn solid chance to table a Marine army if played properly). _Man, this whole thread is a proof by it's title: how hard is it to put some frakking PDFs on their website??? _How hard is it to not brush aside the things they have done in favor of the Sisters in the past couple years as "nothing" when they're showing more interest in them lately then they have in the last decade? Frankly we don't know why they haven't put the rules online, but then again outside of the iPad downloadable rules they haven't put ANY rules online. Not just Sisters, but EVERYTHING that has come out as a WD rules update has not been put online where everyone can access it. _
> 
> So SoB not getting squatted? _No more than Dark Eldar did. _I'm happy that your so sure, but the real life is that nothing is sure. _You're right, I could get hit by a bus walking across the street. Shit happens, but unless we see GW come out and say it, or start acting in a manner that would suggest that they're not going to update the army (stop casting them when they run out of models....moving the entire range to the "Collectors" section....pulling them off the website......releasing a public announcement) they haven't done so and there is no reason to jump to any conclusions that they will_ Upper management can pull the plug on any project if the effort (investment) is higher that it's worth (profit)... _Why do you think I said people need to vote with their wallets? GW doesn't pay attention to internet forums for what people want, they look at the balance sheets. And if any one of us REALLY wants Sisters we'll keep investing in them. I'm not saying that you need to go out and drop a few grand on them, but you can pick up a couple here and there. Expand an existing army, use them as count-as Henchmen or Veteran Guard in an Imperial Guard army with an Ecclesiarchal theme. _ I'm not whining that GW is so mean to me, I'm just telling what I read in GW's actions of the past few years... _These days it's getting really hard to tell the difference. Everything GW does anymore results in someone acting like the company flew over, and then filed every employee through their house and kicked that person in the kidneys. It's tiresome, immature and frankly needs to stop. People need to put on some big-boy pants and deal with GW directly. You don't like the way the company is headed? Write Tom Kirby and tell him exactly why you're not buying more stuff. The internet is a means to share and communicate ideas, not dump putrid bile about how much we hate something just because it doesn't pander to our every whim._
> 
> Now, SoB were my first army. _They're my third. I started them in 2010. _They are the reason I play WH40k. _That's heartwarming, but doesn't validate your point. _ But I sold my army and moved on, because even in the world of tiny space-fighting figurines reality has caught up with me. _That's nice. You quit the army and so you have to try and drag us all down too. Lovely. Here's the rub: you're not helping. You claim that you love the army, and it's design and it's theme and that it is the reason you got into the game. But you ditched it because things looked a little bad and then you insist that we're going to get screwed by the company because things aren't looking too good at the moment. And this is why I find myself growing to hate being lumped in with other Sisters players. Sure there are some damned fine ones out there, but it seems that just having models that you got in the 90s suddenly justifies everything you say and how the company you continue to support is out to kill them. This is the same thing people did for Dark Eldar, and for Necrons, and now us. I even hear it for Black Templar and Eldar. And it's just as stupid for those armies as it is for the Sisters. We'll get an update when it's ready. We're not going the way of the Squat, or the Dodo. They haven't discontinued our range, or shown any true signs of trying to get rid of us. Hell, when they run out of Sisters models for something they cast more! That doesn't sound to me like an army that's going to get dropped anytime soon._ That's why even if you go all "caps-lock" on me, I won't knock it off...


I've addressed things you've said directly in _yellow._

I don't caps-lock, I shift key. Secondly, just because you quit playing Sisters because you thought the winds of change were against you doesn't mean the company is abandoning them. I've yet to see any actual evidence that the Sisters are being dropped. Hell we've got one hell of a barometer regarding how likely that is in Silvertabby!

And that isn't even counting actual sources out there that exist. I've yet to see any semi-credible rumormonger post *anything* about Sisters getting squatted in the last two years.

You can go on and bitch about how you think GW is the evil boogey-man who is going to take away the army you don't even play anymore, but do it somewhere else. This is to talk about news and rumors, and honestly the idea of the Sisters getting squatted has been debunked so many times at this point that it's neither so do it somewhere else.

Now if it comes from a reliable source or with some kind of legitimate evidence (being ignored is not the same as being dropped after all) and not baseless accusations that come from pent up negativity then it can be put back on the table for discussion. Otherwise it really needs to stay out of the Rumors section and go in General Discussion instead.


----------



## boreas

Suit yourself, dude. I hope you're right, but I'll keep thinking that odd's are not in SoB's favor... I wrote the company time and again from 2003 to 2007. I even got answers from guys like Andy Hoare (which is a real nice guy by the way). You've got no evidence the SoBs are getting squatted, and I've got no evidence that they aren't (the "mysterious smile from someone at GW" defense which is brought up time and again since half a decade is no good evidence for me...), so I can't argue with you there.

Just have a nice day, keep calm and carry on...

Phil


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> Suit yourself, dude. I hope you're right, but I'll keep thinking that odd's are not in SoB's favor... I wrote the company time and again from 2003 to 2007. I even got answers from guys like Andy Hoare (which is a real nice guy by the way). You've got no evidence the SoBs are getting squatted, and I've got no evidence that they aren't (the "mysterious smile from someone at GW" defense which is brought up time and again since half a decade is no good evidence for me...), so I can't argue with you there.
> 
> Just have a nice day, keep calm and carry on...
> 
> Phil


The day I hear any real evidence that they're getting squatted (beyond knee-jerking conjecture from people assuming because something wasn't in X that Sisters are going away) I'll likely be one of the first ones to post about it here.

I keep up on the rumors and right now there is diddly in all directions. But that could just be the work of NDAs, GW does seem to be enacting them sooner and sooner. Eventually no employee will be able to even talk about how their day was without fear of violating them.

I'm not beyond accepting the truth, but we've reached the point as an internet community where people have decided to piss on each other and blame GW by claiming that everything they like is going to be stolen from them at a moments noticed. And frankly it's hard to not get upset about that.

Edit: 

Just to throw more nails in "the Crusade of Fire shows they're going to squat the Sisters" buggery:

-Black Templars also don't get special maneuvers in the Burning Skies expansion
-Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights and Orks ALSO did not participate in the campaign (as factions, Cruddace may have used Sister and Grey Knight allies to his Marines, but I haven't confirmed if he ever followed up on that plan yet).

Seriously, I'm calling this idea completely debunked. Not everyone got something or participated in everything. Doesn't mean that they're getting booted off the shelves either.


----------



## Necrosis

So now that's out of the way let's get back on topic.


----------



## Troublehalf

I know they don't have a flyer, but even in the non-flying parts of that book they are missing. Not to mention they were missing on the 40k product poster in the latest WD.

Now, I'm playing devils advocate here, so I won't be a naysayer (SoB are my only wanted army as they are unique AND are BB with IG) completely, but as I read more of the book I went to the writers "Army" pages, where they describe the armies they are using to play this expansion, I did see one of the Imperium army players say "I have small forces of Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle so I'll be making use of the Allies rule". That seems to imply that even the writers/developers/whatever are still using them and not leaving them out. Furthermore, there is no reason for BL to release a SoB Novel in 2013 if they are going to be squatted, the BL books are basically another form of advertising, getting people interested in certain armies. So, there we go. 

It seems to me three possibly things will happen: 1. A new proper codex 2. A new WD codex 3. Squatted. The 2nd option there could be simply GW making SoB so stupidly overpowered that people buy the huge supply of metal SoB lying around, either making space for plastic models OR making some money before removing the product from the line.

Who knows. Part of me wishes GW will either go "They're being removed from our product range" or "They will be updated at some point in the future".


----------



## Archon Dan

Zion said:


> The day I hear any real evidence that they're getting squatted (beyond knee-jerking conjecture from people assuming because something wasn't in X that Sisters are going away) I'll likely be one of the first ones to post about it here.
> 
> I keep up on the rumors and right now there is diddly in all directions. But that could just be the work of NDAs, GW does seem to be enacting them sooner and sooner. Eventually no employee will be able to even talk about how their day was without fear of violating them.
> 
> I'm not beyond accepting the truth, but we've reached the point as an internet community where people have decided to piss on each other and blame GW by claiming that everything they like is going to be stolen from them at a moments noticed. And frankly it's hard to not get upset about that.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Just to throw more nails in "the Crusade of Fire shows they're going to squat the Sisters" buggery:
> 
> -Black Templars also don't get special maneuvers in the Burning Skies expansion
> -Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Grey Knights and Orks ALSO did not participate in the campaign (as factions, Cruddace may have used Sister and Grey Knight allies to his Marines, but I haven't confirmed if he ever followed up on that plan yet).
> 
> Seriously, I'm calling this idea completely debunked. Not everyone got something or participated in everything. Doesn't mean that they're getting booted off the shelves either.


Not that I enjoy the arguements but I do enjoy your conviction Zion. You swayed me a few months ago to not give up on the Sisters. And while I do not play them I find them to be one of the most unique armies. Perhaps that is the delay in an update. They want to keep that unique feeling and add new units too. A tall order. Perhaps you are right about putting some money in the coffers. Maybe some IG players could use some Sisters models for Veterans, give the army a unique look. 



Troublehalf said:


> I know they don't have a flyer, but even in the non-flying parts of that book they are missing. Not to mention they were missing on the 40k product poster in the latest WD.
> 
> Now, I'm playing devils advocate here, so I won't be a naysayer (SoB are my only wanted army as they are unique AND are BB with IG) completely, but as I read more of the book I went to the writers "Army" pages, where they describe the armies they are using to play this expansion, I did see one of the Imperium army players say "I have small forces of Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle so I'll be making use of the Allies rule". That seems to imply that even the writers/developers/whatever are still using them and not leaving them out. Furthermore, there is no reason for BL to release a SoB Novel in 2013 if they are going to be squatted, the BL books are basically another form of advertising, getting people interested in certain armies. So, there we go.
> 
> It seems to me three possibly things will happen: 1. A new proper codex 2. A new WD codex 3. Squatted. The 2nd option there could be simply GW making SoB so stupidly overpowered that people buy the huge supply of metal SoB lying around, either making space for plastic models OR making some money before removing the product from the line.
> 
> Who knows. Part of me wishes GW will either go "They're being removed from our product range" or "They will be updated at some point in the future".


I agree that news, one way or the other, would certainly be a relief. But it seems we must be patient. It is nice that somebody at GW still plays the army, even if just as allies. A new BL book is certainly a plus in my book. And as they got their own sections in the BRB(not lumped into Forces of the Imperium again), I can't see them removed in this edition. 

As I have said in another thread, though it may have been a Tau one, show GW you love your army. That doesn't have to just be with buying models either. Paint them up nicely and send pictures to their Flickr pool or What's New Today team. Make an entry for Armies on Parade or similar contests. Send them battle reports with pictures of the army on the table. You can write letters like Zion said but add pictures too; they're worth 1000 words afterall. Don't gripe about the delay but show them you not only love your army but would buy more for it. Flood them with images from all the Sisters players and they'll be hard pressed to ignore you. If they think they'll make money, they'll work on them faster. The players have the power, not GW.


----------



## Arcane

I have to disagree with you a bit here Zion. The Ecclesiarchal units they added weren't anything new, they were just copy and pasted from the 2nd edition codex, so they didn't really do any work there and just added them in there so they could sell crappy models like Jacobus. Heck, even I bought him because he's so wicked. 

GW doesn't need to Squat the SoB for them to be screwed. They have already pulled them from stores EVERYWHERE, no longer produce packaging for them, no longer sell or offer a codex and just make the models on demand (they often get back ordered). So *they are ALREADY virtually Squated*. Just because they are still legal to play and can be purchases means little. Forgeworld just recently removed their conversion kits too. 

Nothing shows any sign that they will be truly updated in 6th edition or even 7th. 

The only reason I still play them is a love for the army, I already have a ton of models for them and the allies rule means you can play with some new stuff too. Yeah, the WD codex is competitive for a seasoned player... but so is the Orc codex, and both suck compared to Necrons or Blood Angels currently. 

GW has already taken a big shit on us SoB players, you just haven't smelled it yet.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> I have to disagree with you a bit here Zion. The Ecclesiarchal units they added weren't anything new, they were just copy and pasted from the 2nd edition codex, so they didn't really do any work there and just added them in there so they could sell crappy models like Jacobus. Heck, even I bought him because he's so wicked.


I said "expanded them back". I know they aren't new.

I never played during 2nd Edition, but personally I would have got them anyways. They're nice models (in my opinion) that still look good next to the newer ones.



Arcane said:


> GW doesn't need to Squat the SoB for them to be screwed. They have already pulled them from stores EVERYWHERE, no longer produce packaging for them, no longer sell or offer a codex and just make the models on demand (they often get back ordered). So *they are ALREADY virtually Squated*. Just because they are still legal to play and can be purchases means little. Forgeworld just recently removed their conversion kits too.


Put your big boy pants on and quit crying. Other armies have been in this position before (Dark Eldar namely), it's not the end of the world (that's next Friday according to many idiots).



Arcane said:


> Nothing shows any sign that they will be truly updated in 6th edition or even 7th.


And *again*,_ just like Dark Eldar_, there isn't anything that says they won't. Just because we can't see it on the consumer end, it doesn't mean that there isn't anything happening on the developer end. We don't know what kind of things have to be done to approve a codex, or what roadblocks are in the way. We'll get something when we get something.



Arcane said:


> The only reason I still play them is a love for the army, I already have a ton of models for them and the allies rule means you can play with some new stuff too. Yeah, the WD codex is competitive for a seasoned player... but so is the Orc codex, and both suck compared to Necrons or Blood Angels currently.


If you really loved the army so much you'd stop poisoning the well. You probably missed my post a couple pages back so I'll say it again:

This attitude. This one right here, the one where people whine about how much GW hates the Sisters, isn't doing anything for them and generally sounds like an entitled child throwing a tantrum has put me in a position where I have decide how much I want to label myself a "Sisters player". Why? Because it makes us all look bad. Everyone assumes that the second Sisters come up that the every whiny person who has even seen a Sisters model will come crying and whinging about how much GW hates them and their army.

So while I'll continue to play Sisters, and pick up models here and there I'm not going to call myself a Sister player anymore. I'm just someone who has a Sisters army, nothing more. 



Arcane said:


> GW has already taken a big shit on us SoB players, you just haven't smelled it yet.


Oh grow up already. GW doesn't owe you, or me, or even their own mothers a damned thing. They do what they think is right for the company. There is no malicious intent here, just a hurt fan who wants to assume that GW is out to get them.


----------



## Arcane

You can't compare DE and SoB. Yes both sat for a long time but DE always got more attention from GW. They had a battle force, more models, and decent Forge World models (unlike the SoB one's which are just Rhino conversion kits). ALSO, Dark Eldar were never switched to direct order only and dropped from stores, their codex was never out of print, their boxes were never out of print... *inhales* 

Additionally, GW's writers don't have anything against SoB? Then why are they the constant whipping boys (err girls) of the 40k universe? There are so many occasions of them getting slaughtered, raped (figuratively) and defeated that it's become a common joke now amongst the fan base. It's *flat out misogynist* on the part of GW. 

Look, I'm happy you are hopeful, that attitude is great, good for you. I'm never going to be ashamed of my feelings though, even if people claim they are out of line. Oh well.


----------



## Necrosis

Sisters do suffer from the Worf Effect



.
Both of you have valid points and to be honest I will be giving gw a year or two. After that I'm probably going to move on if GW doesn't give us a new codex.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> You can't compare DE and SoB. _So don't them to the compare the other army that sat around for ages with no codex, an all metal range, no support, and then got worse because they got NO updates, to include FAQs/Erratas until mid-way through editions to fix them? Yeah, no. Sisters compare nicely to that mess. Especially when we bring the fan reactions to this._ Yes both sat for a long time but DE always got more attention from GW. They had a battle force _All metal, never updated and then discontinued._, more models _They also had more variety in what kinds of models they would need. Sisters are kinda screwed that way because you can represent the entire army with less than 20 different looking models._, and decent Forge World models (unlike the SoB one's which are just Rhino conversion kits) _Forge World doesn't get it's projects from GW's main dev department as far as I understand. In fact while a part of GW they've said they do things differently. So blame FW for their lack of Sisters stuff, not the main dev department._. ALSO, Dark Eldar were never switched to direct order only and dropped from stores _Odd because I remember complaints that they were almost impossible to find after a while. But maybe it was stores just not stocking things that weren't selling_, their codex was never out of print _Correct, but Grey Knights, Blood Angels (by means of a WD Codex), Beastmen and Chaos Warriors (Fantasy, I know, but they lost their book when Daemons got their own) all went out of print and look where they are now._, their boxes were never out of print..._I can't confirm that at this point in time, but again I do recall complaints that they were damned hard to find._ *inhales*
> 
> Additionally, GW's writers don't have anything against SoB? Then why are they the constant whipping boys (err girls) of the 40k universe? _Black Library and the fan community mostly. _There are so many occasions of them getting slaughtered, raped (figuratively) and defeated that it's become a common joke now amongst the fan base. _Actually when you cut past all the crap that most of the fans vomit onto the internet about Sisters, they aren't killed half as much as claimed._ It's *flat out misogynist* on the part of GW. _You're not using that word correctly. To be misogynist GW would need to be harming women more than anything else, or targeting women or even portraying them in a negative light more than anyone else. This would be more kneejerking and overreacting that doesn't really work when you actually sit down and start comparing notes. Really, go sit down and tally up the number of times Sisters come into harm's way in the codex fluff compared to other codex based armies. I'm willing to bet that while Marines will have the lowest death count, Sisters won't have the highest (hell Guard die en-masse in their OWN codex, something that doesn't usually happen outside of Tyranids). Beyond that the Sisters dress more conservatively than even the female Eldar (especially Dark Eldar). Hell, 40k has one of the few model ranges in existence were all the girl models look like they were designed to be hookers!_
> 
> Look, I'm happy you are hopeful, that attitude is great, good for you. I'm never going to be ashamed of my feelings though, even if people claim they are out of line. Oh well. _I actually consider myself to be a realist. And realistically nothing you, or anyone else has said in the time since I've started Sisters about how GW hates the army, or is trying to shit all over it has done anything to make it better, improved the community, or been proven. If it comes to light that GW is legitimately phasing out the army, or squatting them then I'll change my stance, but right now I'm looking from the outside and waiting to see what happens next instead of making up bedtime stories about the evil GW man who is coming to take my army away._


My words are in _yellow. _


----------



## Arcane

Let me know how those yellow words are doing for you when 8th edition comes out in 2020 and the SoB still haven't been given a real update. Like I said, they don't need to squat them because they already have. eBay is about as good a place to pick up SoB models as GW is and will come in better packaging, so who cares if they even stop making the models.


----------



## Zion

I missed this earlier so I'll go back to it now.



Archon Dan said:


> Not that I enjoy the arguements but I do enjoy your conviction Zion.


I honestly don't like arguments either, but some things get my hackles up and honestly need to be defended against. In my opinion the constant self-entitlement and blaming of GW is one of those things. 




Archon Dan said:


> You swayed me a few months ago to not give up on the Sisters. And while I do not play them I find them to be one of the most unique armies.


I'm glad I was a positive influence for the Sisters. It's something I hope to be. I would rather have people think of the people who play Sisters as overly dedicated folks who like their armies than any of the rep we currently have online.

And while I do play them, I think the same thing. Nothing quite acts with the same flavor as the Sisters do. They get close, murder Marines, and then move on and murder more things.

Now if they could just be a little better at handling horde armies like Orks....



Archon Dan said:


> Perhaps that is the delay in an update. They want to keep that unique feeling and add new units too. A tall order. Perhaps you are right about putting some money in the coffers. Maybe some IG players could use some Sisters models for Veterans, give the army a unique look.


From where I sit in my worn out chair, it's what seems most logical to me. Sisters aren't an update that can be done well overnight. There has to be a balance in how they're handled (so they don't turn into Heavy-Guard or Marines-Lite) while adding serious heft to their range, their options and overall their feel as a whole. Then there has to be tweaking to ensure that you can make them work in that close ranged space they like to be in as well.

As someone who has played with ideas for Sisters for a while now, it's something I can safely say: they're not an army that can just get a quickie update by slapping a couple options in. There is a fine line between making them good, and violating the very premises they're built on. It's easy to start talking about lascannons and Sisters on Bikes (If we get some kind of heavy Calvary I want Sisters on bears honestly) and eight hundred other things, but not everything out there is right for them. And that's something I think the Dev team is aware of, and is making sure they address as they go. We may not agree with their vision in the end, but I can assure you that it'll be their vision of what Sisters are when we get it.




Archon Dan said:


> I agree that news, one way or the other, would certainly be a relief. But it seems we must be patient. It is nice that somebody at GW still plays the army, even if just as allies. A new BL book is certainly a plus in my book. And as they got their own sections in the BRB(not lumped into Forces of the Imperium again), I can't see them removed in this edition.


A point I soundly agree with. There is just too much that seems to be in our favor to drum up support, or is a show of support by the GW team that I don't see the bin coming anytime soon. I can always be wrong, but if I am, I'll admit it when it happens.



Archon Dan said:


> As I have said in another thread, though it may have been a Tau one, show GW you love your army. That doesn't have to just be with buying models either. Paint them up nicely and send pictures to their Flickr pool or What's New Today team. Make an entry for Armies on Parade or similar contests. Send them battle reports with pictures of the army on the table. You can write letters like Zion said but add pictures too; they're worth 1000 words afterall. Don't gripe about the delay but show them you not only love your army but would buy more for it. Flood them with images from all the Sisters players and they'll be hard pressed to ignore you. If they think they'll make money, they'll work on them faster. The players have the power, not GW.


My point exactly. Continue to pick up the occasional model, build that extra squad, hell, build an Order if you think it'll help. But don't give up on them. We always say we need to vote with our wallets, but everytime someone quits buying Sisters (even if it's just the 3 pack occasionally), or dumps their army we lose that much more support.

And just like it does for PBS, that support matters for the Sisters too. Everyone cries that GW will never support a failing army, well then why don't you do something about it? Hell write the devs, write Kirby, write WD, flood their Flickr, but don't stop. The more support shown, the less we can be ignored by anyone.

If you really think they're not paying enough attention, then the only option is to make them pay attention. And you can't do that if you don't give them anything to pay attention to (and no, crying about how they hate you on a message board doesn't count as support).


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Let me know how those yellow words are doing for you when 8th edition comes out in 2020 and the SoB still haven't been given a real update. Like I said, they don't need to squat them because they already have. eBay is about as good a place to pick up SoB models as GW is and will come in better packaging, so who cares if they even stop making the models.


Let me know how not buying them from GW (even a little at a time) or harassing them with pictures of your army or generally proving to GW that the Sisters are worth spending time on in 2020 and we haven't seen anything.

I don't think GW will be responsible if the Sisters get squatted, I think the "fans" will.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> I don't think GW will be responsible if the Sisters get squatted, I think the "fans" will.


Though GW does have some control over the pricing and that doesn't seem to be helping at all.

I chuckle when someone mentioned GW dumping SoB due to the lack of attention a bit, mostly because it took Dark Eldar 13 years to FINALLY get a rules update and then suddenly they were back to existing. So call me when SoB has been out any type of update after 14 years. Otherwise I'm inclined to think GW is either slow, or simply can't figure out what they want to do yet.


----------



## Pandora

Where's this idea that the SoB models are ugly coming from? Did you guys see the old Dark Eldar models? Some armies need a big reboot. They can't just write new rules, lower points and add a handful of new units like with Chaos. The Sisters range needs a complete re-vision like DE. A recent thread said that codex updates take about a year to complete. But some have to take longer. If you think DE was done in a year, you're crazy. It's had three waves and is still missing some models. Chaos, being so well established had one wave and every model is available. But it amazes me that the Sisters models are all still metal and comparatively priced to resin models. It would be far cheaper to convert to resin, especially with as few as they are likely producing at a time. That is unless they are planning new sculpts and/or plastic models for the Troops. And the cost of metal also explains pulling them for stores, it being far cheaper to produce per order than to let metal figures sit on a shelf somewhere. But if an update were not planned, they could switch to resin and save some money.


----------



## Arcane

Wouldn't say that SoB models are ugly per se. They are great models and I really like mine, but compared to the models produced today (looking at the Dark Vengeance set) they look dwarfish, amateur, and simple. That's just because of the technology available at the time. 

It's the grand mystery as to why they haven't been converted to resin yet have been pulled. Either they are are going to convert to resin and keep the army that way for a while longer or they aren't doing resin because they are getting new plastic models. It's like waiting on the Emperor to awaken!

I'm starting to suspect that something is happening in the design studio that is holding things up with a new SoB release that is going to need to be dealt with on a management level. There's a reason this hasn't been a smooth release and it has to be something behind the scenes like problems with models, personel or the designs themselves.


----------



## SilverTabby

It didn't help that there were problems with the sculpts (the rumours flying around were actually true) and the person down to write the Codex (Andy Hoare) left before the slot he was supposed to do them in came around (he gave me a timeframe, but wasn't there when it arrived). All this bollocks about "The Studio hate them because they're girls" is just that - bollocks. If you're going to update a niche army, it *has* to be right, or you lose all the existing players and put off new ones.

As for the Dark Eldar - they came out initially with the release of 3rd Ed. They had virtually nothing then until recently, and were stuck with the god-awful Morley sculpts in both plastic and metal. Jez started on the new ones back in 2007, it was a long process. Sisters on the other hand got new models with the release of Witch Hunters, which put them a good step ahead of the poor DE. 

I've been a Sisters player since 1997. I worked in the Studio for 9 years. If we don't see something next year, I will be *amazed*.


----------



## Necrosis

By next year do you mean by the end of 2013?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Damn it Tabby ! LOL

I'm wanting some sisters for my Armies on Parade and had pretty much given up hope of new mini's before August next year now I have doubts again !


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## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> By next year do you mean by the end of 2013?


Well, unless you're in a very different time zone to me, we're still in 2012 and next year is 2013, yes :wink:


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## nevynxxx

SilverTabby said:


> Well, unless you're in a very different time zone to me, we're still in 2012 and next year is 2013, yes :wink:


Ahhh, you are ignoring that stupid subset that think "next" means, "not the one that's coming, the one after it" for whom the end of next year will be Dec 2014.


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## SilverTabby

nevynxxx said:


> Ahhh, you are ignoring that stupid subset that think "next" means, "not the one that's coming, the one after it" for whom the end of next year will be Dec 2014.


I can understand how - if it's a wednesday - you can mix up "this" weekend and "next" weekend, but next year is a pretty simple concept. :wink: I tend to try and ignore the stupid people, it keeps my blood pressure down.


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## Tawa

SilverTabby said:


> I tend to try and ignore the stupid people, it keeps my blood pressure down.


I _could_ try that at work. But then I'd have nobody to talk to.... :laugh:


----------



## Arcane

I was checking out the 2nd ed dex, am I correct in thinking that most SoB models were made in 1997 with the redone (3rd ed) Rhinos, Immolators, Excorcist and ecclesiarchal models being from 2003?


----------



## Tawa

Arcane said:


> I was checking out the 2nd ed dex, am I correct in thinking that most SoB models were made in 1997 with the redone (3rd ed) Rhinos, Immolators, Excorcist and ecclesiarchal models being from 2003?


I don't think you're too far off with those years, Arc.


----------



## Arcane

That's what I thought since I started playing SoB in 4th ed. So wow... all those little ladies are around 16 year old sculpts now. How sad they haven't been updated yet and still cost $7-15 a model.


----------



## Tawa

Yup. I'm still quite keen on those lil ladies to be honest 

Even though they're all getting on a bit :laugh:


----------



## Arcane

Whatever they do I hope they come out with a Battleforce. I can't believe that for the cost of a battleforce for another army you can buy 1 troop choice, sergeant, special weapon and transport for SoB... that's $120 dollars for a 175 point troop choice and transport. lol!


----------



## Kettu

SilverTabby said:


> It didn't help that there were problems with the sculpts (the rumours flying around were actually true)


This has always bugged me. GW has shown in the past that they have no problem at all with changing the appearance of minis when they get resculpted regardless of if they changed their medium from metal to plastic (Or vice-versa) or not. 
What makes the Emperor's Daughters sculpts so sacrosanct that any issues in a plastic transition _couldn't_ be solved with just removing or altering the problem parts? 
I honestly can not understand this at all.



> the person down to write the Codex (Andy Hoare) left before the slot he was supposed to do them in came around (he gave me a timeframe, but wasn't there when it arrived).


And... This project _couldn't_ be handed to someone else to work on in his stead? An entire production had to be scrapped before it even started because there is no fall-back option available and the project itself has to be shelved for a few more years because there is no more 'slots' for it to fit?
I'm not trying to start arguments or attack GW (I don't need excuses for that :grin but this all seems really strange and unwieldy for a company, bureaucracy jokes aside, that prides itself on being the market leader that is is. 



> If we don't see something next year, I will be *amazed*.


May I ask what you consider 'something'?
A Rumour-Monger feeding us a tidbit? An few offhand comments in WD? Their WDex going PDF or a $500+ I-download? An article or two in WD or on the net? An *Actual* release?

'Something' is a frighteningly broad descriptive here and I have no doubt we'll see 'something' about the sisters in the course of a year. 
However, like I listed above, what that 'something' will be is the real question.

However thank you for all this, it has answered a few questions I have had. (Even if it just invoked a few more).


----------



## Mokuren

Arcane said:


> That's what I thought since I started playing SoB in 4th ed. So wow... all those little ladies are around 16 year old sculpts now. How sad they haven't been updated yet and still cost $7-15 a model.


This is why I have bought exactly one ten-man pack and a canoness when I got a deal at a con and then stopped.

I'm not buying 16 years old models on special order only that have terrible game support and are suspended in a void where they may be all I'll have to live with for the next 10 years or might be updated and made shitty and obsolete next year.

Whine and call me an entitled fan poisoning the well if it makes you feel better, but you can't expect a bunch of people to just waste more than 100€ for ONE troop choice (an _obligatory_ one as it's the only troop choice you have, and the rest just gets _more_ expensive) with the army's situation being what it is.

Saying that sisters don't get updated because their so-called "fans" don't buy them is circular logic, which might as well be what's happening but we all know there's pretty much zero chance of their sales going anywhere as of now.


----------



## SilverTabby

Arcane said:


> I was checking out the 2nd ed dex, am I correct in thinking that most SoB models were made in 1997 with the redone (3rd ed) Rhinos, Immolators, Excorcist and ecclesiarchal models being from 2003?


Not quite. With the release of WH, you also got about 3-4 new Sister Superiors for the Seraphim (who originally had 1), 3-4 new generic Sister Superiors (mainly in helmets), all the Repentia, a new Canoness with options, and Stormbolter special weapons, as well (I believe) as additional poses for the existing special weapons. The Basic Sisters remained identical.



Kettu said:


> This has always bugged me. GW has shown in the past that they have no problem at all with changing the appearance of minis when they get resculpted regardless of if they changed their medium from metal to plastic (Or vice-versa) or not.
> What makes the Emperor's Daughters sculpts so sacrosanct that any issues in a plastic transition _couldn't_ be solved with just removing or altering the problem parts?
> I honestly can not understand this at all.


Because these are one of Jez's babies. The Eldar remain the same, because they are his. The Tyranids were redone on his say-so. They won't remove the cloth element of the Sisters look, because that *makes* the look in so many ways. Can you imagine Sisters without any robes? 



> And... This project _couldn't_ be handed to someone else to work on in his stead? An entire production had to be scrapped before it even started because there is no fall-back option available and the project itself has to be shelved for a few more years because there is no more 'slots' for it to fit?


Writing Codeces isn't like writing computer programs. You can't just have one dumped in front of you and be told "have this ready for next week". Creative projects are always something of a difficult beast to handle.

The Sisters are a niche army, that have a very specific style and feel. Andy was a Sisters player and enthusiast. He *got* them. None of the other guys in Games Dev got them in quite the same way (between me and him, we were pretty much the only Sisters players in the main Studio). Now, you give them to someone who hasn't got that feel for them, and what you're likely to end up with is IG-heavy or Marines-light. 

If you're doing a full reboot like with DE or Necrons, or even just the step-up like Daemonhunters got, then you need it to be right. This is why we got the WDdex - it stripped out everything that wasn't Sisters, whilst ensuring the army was still playable in 6th, without adding anything that would need removing when the redo came about. This is why I wasn't upset at the WDDex - I knew what it meant. But the last thing you want is your codex handed to someone who will go "man, really? Sisters? Why me?"



> May I ask what you consider 'something'?
> A Rumour-Monger feeding us a tidbit? An few offhand comments in WD? Their WDex going PDF or a $500+ I-download? An article or two in WD or on the net? An *Actual* release?
> 
> 'Something' is a frighteningly broad descriptive here and I have no doubt we'll see 'something' about the sisters in the course of a year.
> However, like I listed above, what that 'something' will be is the real question.
> 
> However thank you for all this, it has answered a few questions I have had. (Even if it just invoked a few more).


I view "something" as either the full release, or the collection of huge pointers that it will appear in Q1 2014.


----------



## Loli

Agreed, it's similar for me, like many of us I collect many armies. Now I enjoy them but I simply can't afford to expand them, where as for all my other armies I can get a minimum troop choice for £20 or so, for sisters I'm looking at triple that, which from the point of needing to spend more of the same numbers to expand the list. 

Do I feel entitled? Heck no, I'm also a DE player - before the update - so this isn't new to me, but as it is I just can't afford to continue, while I'm glad they seperated my beloved Sisters from the GKs at this point I do wish they would have let us keep the Inquisitors and such just to bulk out or options a little bit. 

So for me my sisters on boxed, do I love them? Yes. I don't care about the Codex issue, I'm happy with the changes for the most part, what puts me off fielding them is the sheer cost to field them compared to my other armies, and the lack of difference in the models especially with them being metal and dated. So for now I'm just happy to wait.


----------



## Arcane

So in other words, GW's dev studio is like Guns 'n Roses. While Slash has moved on to bigger and better things with other bands (Codexs), Axl Rose was left with trying to write another album because GW won't bring in another writer to do the work of the people who either won't or can't do it right. And now after a Chinese Democracy (the WD dex) they still haven't figured it out. Meanwhile most fans just got to the point of... who cares anymore?

Seriously though, hire someone else. It's a big world and there are plenty of talented people in it. The fans have already written hundreds of fan-codex which have plenty of potential while GW drags their feet. At this point who cares if Andy is gone, this isn't like the Sistine Chapel was half painted and no one can find another Michelangelo to finish the job. It's a book, they should just get on with it. I'de rather them do it and risk it not being perfect than spend another 100 dollars on unconversionable models which are shorter than guardsmen and look like medieval statues and wait another 10 years for something that isn't going to happen. 

Most hardcore fans don't feel entitled, they just feel like there is a lack of respect with the opacity of GW's actions.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> This is why I have bought exactly one ten-man pack and a canoness when I got a deal at a con and then stopped. _That's fair. Not everyone can afford to spend money on large numbers of Sisters to build a full army. I understand that._
> 
> I'm not buying 16 years old models on special order only that have terrible game support and are suspended in a void where they may be all I'll have to live with for the next 10 years or might be updated and made shitty and obsolete next year. _Again, a fair point. _
> 
> Whine and call me an entitled fan poisoning the well if it makes you feel better, but you can't expect a bunch of people to just waste more than 100€ for ONE troop choice (an _obligatory_ one as it's the only troop choice you have, and the rest just gets _more_ expensive) with the army's situation being what it is. _The fans poisoning the wells aren't the ones who don't buy it because the cost, they're the ones chasing everyone else away by making a massive scene over how GW is specifically screwing them over like the company has a personal vendetta. It creates a bad name for Sisters players, tells people that the only kind of people who play the army act like that and generally makes everyone look bad.
> 
> The problem isn't in expressing displeasure in something or disagreeing with how GW is handling it. The problem is how it's being done. And in a loud angry voice in the internet isn't how to fix the problem. It just makes us more insulated from other players (because they don't want to be associated with us due to the behaviours of, what I hope are, a vocal few) and creates a stigma about the army. It doesn't help the position of the army, or it's acceptance in the community when we jump up and down on the internet yelling about stuff like Tom Cruise on a couch.
> _
> Saying that sisters don't get updated because their so-called "fans" don't buy them is circular logic, which might as well be what's happening but we all know there's pretty much zero chance of their sales going anywhere as of now. _My point wasn't that they don't get updated because no one buys them, it was that buying them will push GW to update them *sooner*. A sudden upswing in sales of Sisters grabs attention and notifies the people who like to count beans that they're a sell-able force and that there is a market for them. Since a market means there is money, interest in getting something for them goes up and the Sisters move closer to the top of the priority list.
> 
> Now this is based on assumptions of course, but these assumptions are based on common buisness practices used to help drive what gets made and what doesn't. We commonly see things that were popular sometime ago come back because they suddenly gain a following, the same thing can easilly apply here._


Just thought I'd clarify some of my points since there seemed to be some confusion on what I meant.


----------



## Suijin

Arcane said:


> So in other words, GW's dev studio is like Guns 'n Roses. While Slash has moved on to bigger and better things with other bands (Codexs), Axl Rose was left with trying to write another album because GW won't bring in another writer to do the work of the people who either won't or can't do it right. And now after a Chinese Democracy (the WD dex) they still haven't figured it out. Meanwhile most fans just got to the point of... who cares anymore?
> 
> Seriously though, hire someone else. It's a big world and there are plenty of talented people in it. The fans have already written hundreds of fan-codex which have plenty of potential while GW drags their feet. At this point who cares if Andy is gone, this isn't like the Sistine Chapel was half painted and no one can find another Michelangelo to finish the job. It's a book, they should just get on with it. I'de rather them do it and risk it not being perfect than spend another 100 dollars on unconversionable models which are shorter than guardsmen and look like medieval statues and wait another 10 years for something that isn't going to happen.
> 
> Most hardcore fans don't feel entitled, they just feel like there is a lack of respect with the opacity of GW's actions.


That's the wrong order of events though. GW doesn't make the codex then make the models, so hiring someone to write the codex doesn't help at all. Jez will finish the models and then we will get a codex, eventually.

There is proof they won't get squatted in that they have said they won't, 2011? GD seminar. They have also said they won't bring back the squats.


----------



## Arcane

Mokuren said:


> This is why I have bought exactly one ten-man pack and a canoness when I got a deal at a con and then stopped. That's fair. Not everyone can afford to spend money on large numbers of Sisters to build a full army. I understand that.
> I'm not buying 16 years old models on special order only that have terrible game support and are suspended in a void where they may be all I'll have to live with for the next 10 years or might be updated and made shitty and obsolete next year. Again, a fair point.
> Whine and call me an entitled fan poisoning the well if it makes you feel better, but you can't expect a bunch of people to just waste more than 100€ for ONE troop choice (an obligatory one as it's the only troop choice you have, and the rest just gets more expensive) with the army's situation being what it is. The fans poisoning the wells aren't the ones who don't buy it because the cost, they're the ones chasing everyone else away by making a massive scene over how GW is specifically screwing them over like the company has a personal vendetta. It creates a bad name for Sisters players, tells people that the only kind of people who play the army act like that and generally makes everyone look bad. The only ones poisoning the wells are GW themselves by not at least showing good faith and releasing a PDF of the codex. Sure, I could understand for a few months holding off it's release, or even half a year. But over a year now and not a single peep? THEY have killed the army as a marketable commodity and chased away any possible new fans, not any griping fans. It creates a bad name for the Sisters army because who the hell wants to play an army which is no longer officially supported.
> But hey, someone must know something I don't so please by all means give me the GOOD reason GW has for not releasing a PDF of the WD SOB dex which would take them 5 minutes to publish to the web? If anyone has anything better than he said she said rumours about the design studio I'm still waiting to hear it. Until them the glaring point stands that GW are currently the thing holding SoB back, not poisonous fans.
> The problem isn't in expressing displeasure in something or disagreeing with how GW is handling it. The problem is how it's being done. And in a loud angry voice in the internet isn't how to fix the problem. It just makes us more insulated from other players (because they don't want to be associated with us due to the behaviors of, what I hope are, a vocal few) and creates a stigma about the army. It doesn't help the position of the army, or it's acceptance in the community when we jump up and down on the internet yelling about stuff like Tom Cruise on a couch. A loud angry voice on the internet isn't meant to fix the problem, it's simply to express how people feel about it, which they are free to do unless the moderators or Jezlad ban griping about SoB. Who cares about acceptance? This isn't Highschool Zion, it's a game of plast/metal space men you play with at a hobby store full of smelly teenagers. Also, last time I checked Tom Cruise is still making multimillion dollar movies, living in a mansion and not giving a flying fuck about what some people on the internet think about him so... what's your point? I don't expect GW to change their stance about business based on what's online, I would hope that common sense on their part could do that.
> Saying that sisters don't get updated because their so-called "fans" don't buy them is circular logic, which might as well be what's happening but we all know there's pretty much zero chance of their sales going anywhere as of now. My point wasn't that they don't get updated because no one buys them, it was that buying them will push GW to update them sooner. A sudden upswing in sales of Sisters grabs attention and notifies the people who like to count beans that they're a sell-able force and that there is a market for them. Since a market means there is money, interest in getting something for them goes up and the Sisters move closer to the top of the priority list. Since you're an expert on business now maybe you should head up to jolly ol England and help them out. You completely missed the point I was making about buying them off eBay and as I have pointed out before, GW are the only ones limiting sales on SoB by not making the codex available. Perhaps they would like to make a market possible before expecting any sales in it.
> Now this is based on assumptions of course, but these assumptions are based on common business practices used to help drive what gets made and what doesn't. We commonly see things that were popular sometime ago come back because they suddenly gain a following, the same thing can easilly apply here.. Not all of us are used to taking orders and being told to hurry up and wait for a living, so you will have to forgive the rest of us if we are not so complacent to sit tight and do as told. I believe in questioning what I see and speaking my opinion on the matter regardless of if that opinion is popular or not. No I don't expect anyone from GW reads these boards, even though we know that's not true, and no I don't expect them to care or to change anything. But is it a place to say how I feel about it among other 40k enthusiast??? So tell me how my complaining about GW's handling of the SoB is hurting their sales of the army more than their unavailable Codex, ridiculous prices, outdated rules, unavailability in stores, lack of packaging, and OLD models. Go ahead... I'm waiting *Wonkaface*





Suijin said:


> There is proof they won't get squatted in that they have said they won't, 2011? GD seminar. They have also said they won't bring back the squats.


They don't need to say "We are squatting them" in order for them to be effectively squatted, which they are. My point which Zion missed, about buying from Ebay, wasn't to boycott GW, which is childish. The point was that the models are still available so whether GW sells them or not really doesn't make a difference since the only two options to buy them are GW or Ebay (Craigslist etc). Taking GW out of the equation wouldn't change much. The only virtual difference between SoB and Squats right now is that SoB are still available in plain packaging from direct order, are generally accepted as legal play (which doesn't really matter since GW doesn't sanction events in most countries anyways) and may get redone in the future.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> This is why I have bought exactly one ten-man pack and a canoness when I got a deal at a con and then stopped. That's fair. Not everyone can afford to spend money on large numbers of Sisters to build a full army. I understand that.
> 
> I'm not buying 16 years old models on special order only that have terrible game support and are suspended in a void where they may be all I'll have to live with for the next 10 years or might be updated and made shitty and obsolete next year. Again, a fair point.
> 
> Whine and call me an entitled fan poisoning the well if it makes you feel better, but you can't expect a bunch of people to just waste more than 100€ for ONE troop choice (an obligatory one as it's the only troop choice you have, and the rest just gets more expensive) with the army's situation being what it is. The fans poisoning the wells aren't the ones who don't buy it because the cost, they're the ones chasing everyone else away by making a massive scene over how GW is specifically screwing them over like the company has a personal vendetta. It creates a bad name for Sisters players, tells people that the only kind of people who play the army act like that and generally makes everyone look bad.  The only ones poisoning the wells are GW themselves by not at least showing good faith and releasing a PDF of the codex. Sure, I could understand for a few months holding off it's release, or even half a year. But over a year now and not a single peep? THEY have killed the army as a marketable commodity and chased away any possible new fans, not any griping fans. It creates a bad name for the Sisters army because who the hell wants to play an army which is no longer officially supported.
> _
> As I've said in the past, we don't know the logistics on why they haven't released the codex exactly. What I do know is that they've been using this new iPad release thing for a while now and we have yet to see a lot of books released this way, as well as the supplement rules for anything else. Some books are getting released this way, and yet we saw Space Marines get a release of the Vanilla 'dex out of sequence. There is likely a driving force behind the choices they make on what does and doesn't get released.
> 
> And while I will agree the army is hard to get into and I can't blame anyone one person for not starting them, I can not in good conscience place sole blame on GW. The fact of the matter is when you're in a community and you use said community to judge what kind of army you'd be interested in the people who play that army and their conduct will colour your perception just as much as the circumstances about that army. In some cases it may drive people from wanting to even know more about the army just because they don't like the kind of people they perceive as the kind playing it.
> 
> For clarity sake I'm going to toss out my personal definition of supported, and you can share yours because it's easy to cross talk on this.
> 
> For myself I see an army that is supported as one that has a valid rule set that (check), has models that are still available to make a valid army (check) and gets FAQs/Erratas (check). Sisters have all three of these things. Now they may not have an extensive rule set, or new models or a massive FAQ but on the flip side of that coin very few Sisters models are OOP, the rules are solid (albeit bland) and we don't need a massive FAQ because the rules don't really need it. They're well written, there isn't a lot of room for confusion or loopholes in them. You may see it differently but I see them as getting support, just not to the level that you personally want.
> _
> But hey, someone must know something I don't so please by all means give me the GOOD reason GW has for not releasing a PDF of the WD SOB dex which would take them 5 minutes to publish to the web? If anyone has anything better than he said she said rumours about the design studio I'm still waiting to hear it. Until them the glaring point stands that GW are currently the thing holding SoB back, not poisonous fans.
> 
> _Possible reasons why they haven't released an PDF:
> 1. They aren't releasing *any* rule sets any more as free PDFs (to include the new codex options).
> 2. They're holding off because the Sisters aren't going to be saddled with the White Dwarf codex long enough to warrant a PDF like the old codex, or Blood Angels.
> 3. They're updating it again and adding stuff to it and making it an iPad exclusive.
> 4. Someone screwed up and lost the file the rules were in.
> 5. They haven't gotten to it yet because of the work load (each dev is working 3+ books at the same time) and they want to update it first
> 6. They have a massive machine in Nottingham that runs on the strife off all the Sisters players and all it does is print toilet paper that looks like money.
> _
> The problem isn't in expressing displeasure in something or disagreeing with how GW is handling it. The problem is how it's being done. And in a loud angry voice in the internet isn't how to fix the problem. It just makes us more insulated from other players (because they don't want to be associated with us due to the behaviours of, what I hope are, a vocal few) and creates a stigma about the army. It doesn't help the position of the army, or it's acceptance in the community when we jump up and down on the internet yelling about stuff like Tom Cruise on a couch. A loud angry voice on the internet isn't meant to fix the problem, it's simply to express how people feel about it, which they are free to do unless the moderators or Jezlad ban griping about SoB. Who cares about acceptance? This isn't Highschool Zion, it's a game of plast/metal space men you play with at a hobby store full of smelly teenagers. Also, last time I checked Tom Cruise is still making multimillion dollar movies, living in a mansion and not giving a flying fuck about what some people on the internet think about him so... what's your point? I don't expect GW to change their stance about business based on what's online, I would hope that common sense on their part could do that.
> _
> I'm not saying that having a negative opinion is bad, I'm saying how you (general term here, I don't mean you specifically) is. Going into a fit like Donald Duck when things go awry doesn't help the problem, doesn't help your position and doesn't get people to treat the situation with any level of validity. Again, I'm *not *against negative viewpoints, I'm against yelling and screaming and throwing tantrums on the internet because you have a negative opinion and that's the only way you feel it can be properly expressed.
> 
> Tom Cruise was used as a visual example of the behaviour, not of his current economic status. He's meant as a way to help people visualize what I meant. You're missing the forest for the trees on that one.
> 
> _ Saying that sisters don't get updated because their so-called "fans" don't buy them is circular logic, which might as well be what's happening but we all know there's pretty much zero chance of their sales going anywhere as of now. My point wasn't that they don't get updated because no one buys them, it was that buying them will push GW to update them sooner. A sudden upswing in sales of Sisters grabs attention and notifies the people who like to count beans that they're a sell-able force and that there is a market for them. Since a market means there is money, interest in getting something for them goes up and the Sisters move closer to the top of the priority list. Since you're an expert on business now maybe you should head up to jolly ol England and help them out. You completely missed the point I was making about buying them off eBay and as I have pointed out before, GW are the only ones limiting sales on SoB by not making the codex available. Perhaps they would like to make a market possible before expecting any sales in it.
> _I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I mentioned that this is an assumption, but it's a logical one based on the idea of "oh shit this makes money, we might want to sell to them" being a thing that businesses do. This kind of production model is why we have get clones of video games, and if you go on the Apple Store you see that there are hundreds of clones of things like Angry Birds. People notice what sells and cater to that, even the original creators (how many Angry Birds versions are their now? Like 6?). Look, if you want to buy off eBay, fine. If you want to snort powdered plastic off a hooker's back, fine. It's your money, you choose how you want to spend it. I just feel that for me personally, that buying Sisters from GW, even only a few at a time is a better investment for the force as a whole than buying them second hand. Not to mention you're more likely to actually have the backpacks this way too..._
> 
> Now this is based on assumptions of course, but these assumptions are based on common business practices used to help drive what gets made and what doesn't. We commonly see things that were popular sometime ago come back because they suddenly gain a following, the same thing can easilly apply here.. Not all of us are used to taking orders and being told to hurry up and wait for a living, so you will have to forgive the rest of us if we are not so complacent to sit tight and do as told. I believe in questioning what I see and speaking my opinion on the matter regardless of if that opinion is popular or not. No I don't expect anyone from GW reads these boards, even though we know that's not true, and no I don't expect them to care or to change anything. But is it a place to say how I feel about it among other 40k enthusiast??? So tell me how my complaining about GW's handling of the SoB is hurting their sales of the army more than their unavailable Codex, ridiculous prices, outdated rules, unavailability in stores, lack of packaging, and OLD models. Go ahead... I'm waiting *Wonkaface*
> _
> Quite honestly I'd rather we leave the personal lives and jobs out of this. Especially when it involves a lot of generalizations and assumptions. Now I think it's safe to say I've stated my opinion just as freely as you have despite my occupation. And on an internet scale, *not* being the loud, shouty, hateful person puts me on the least popular side automatically. I'm not self-destructing in an entertaining manner, thus am less noticed or paid attention to by many.
> 
> You claim that you are the only one who questions what GW does, and so on. This is not true. Several times a week I run a search to drudge up anything I can on the Sisters. You can actually see my exact search string *here*. Why do I do this? Because I want to know more about what's going on behind the scenes, I want to try and get capture any information I can. It's how I found the initial post that started this topic that I shared here. I don't wait for the answers to come, I spend time looking for them, and sometimes I find things that might fit, but a lot of times I don't. There are more ways to approach a problem than gnashing your teething and angrily wailing at the internet for answers. They aren't all visible, and honestly I'm okay with that. I don't have all the answers, but I at least try to make sure I try and look for them first.
> 
> On your point about sales, I'm not claiming you're doing anything to sales specifically. I'm claiming that your approach can, and likely does, turn people off to the army. Hell until I played again recently I was finding myself becoming disenchanted with them just because of all the negativity I keep finding around them. And people can say it's just the internet, or that I should ignore it. But here's the thing, everyone on the internet is a person. A person shaped by their environment and who shapes that environment by the choices they make.
> 
> If those choices are (for example, because with Sisters this is how the average lifespan of a Sisters thread plays out): to loudly claim that they're being personally targeted by the maliciousness of a company who apparently hates only them this is going to do three things: 1. It's going to colour people's perceptions of the situation to a more negative tone, 2. This colouring is going to cause them to reinforce the position and then further progress the situation by adding fuel to the fire. 3. This will then reach the point of people either becoming callous and uncaring about it, thus insulating the group, or attract individuals who then use this negativity to cause further grief and exploit it for their own amusement.
> 
> What does this do? Well it means that when something about the Sisters gets posted the result on a majority level tends to be a frustrated and unhappy "One of these again?!" and on a minor level several pages of GW bashing that devolves into a flame war because someone comes in to start something, usually by saying the Sisters will get squatted.
> 
> This. This right there is why I say it doesn't help the army any. If you where to be new to the game and on a forum (it really doesn't matter which one, I've seen it all over the place) and saw a thread about Sisters and then read several pages of loud and angry GW bashing that devolves into a flame war (or just peters off into nothingness) you'd likely want nothing to do with that mess, or the collective circle jerk some communities preform every time it comes up.
> 
> The prices don't help, sure. The availability of the rules don't help, sure. But I think the real killer, the final nail in the coffin of "Do I want to play Sisters?" comes from us, the community participating in this time and time again, telling people not to buy the models, that GW is only going to squat the army, and generally piss all over everyone and claim it's GW's fault it's raining.
> 
> Now you (again, not you specifically, but rather a generalized 2nd Person "you") can raise these points in a calm, collected manner and be seen as a much more mature, and rational individual, or you can loudly yell from the rooftops that the world is going to end and it's GW's fault. Which do carries more credit and weight in the end? Personally I'm more likely to pay attention to and consider the more mature approach, but maybe that's just me.
> _





Arcane said:


> Suijin said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is proof they won't get squatted in that they have said they won't, 2011? GD seminar. They have also said they won't bring back the squats.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't need to say "We are squatting them" in order for them to be effectively squatted, which they are. _I personally disagree with this as something that it's like claiming that something is "effectively" 10' long being the same as something *is* 10'. I don't think Sisters are lacking support, I just don't think they have the support you think they need to be considered "supported". Could they use more? Most certainly, but they are not unsupported._ My point which Zion missed, about buying from Ebay, wasn't to boycott GW, which is childish. _I don't -think- I said anything about buying from Ebay being done as a boycott, but since the point was raised I do want to establish I have seen numerous posts (in general, so not here per-say but all over) stating that people should just avoid buying Sisters from GW as a boycott. It does come up, even if you didn't say it._ The point was that the models are still available so whether GW sells them or not really doesn't make a difference since the only two options to buy them are GW or Ebay (Craigslist etc). _There is a difference actually. One of those GW has already gotten money for the models years ago, and by not getting them from them you aren't affecting the incoming revenue from that army thus showing GW that there is a market there. People like to say Sisters aren't popular sellers....well they are, just not new and this would be why. _Taking GW out of the equation wouldn't change much. _I disagree, because by affecting the incoming revenue for the product the company does not see the product as being "worth the time" as they are likely going to cost more development time (and thus money as money is spent in development) to make thus making the investment a net loss, thus not worth doing. This is actually the kind of things that kills off video game franchises. The second hand market can severely damage the company's perception of the popularity of a product because of the decreased revenue over time, thus believing that the market has dried up for that product resulting in the project getting the plug pulled. It's actually the reason I say that in the end that the true killer of Sisters will be us, the players because of our lack of financial support can result in a lack of company support. Now I can't say that's how GW operates, but it is something that a lot of companies bigger than GW do, and it's worth noting when you decided to shop second hand or not. _The only virtual difference between SoB and Squats right now is that SoB are still available in plain packaging from direct order, are generally accepted as legal play (which doesn't really matter since GW doesn't sanction events in most countries anyways) and may get redone in the future. _I can split hairs on this, but I'll agree with the spirit of the statement here, if not the wording._
Click to expand...

Arcane, don't mistake a collected, and calm reaction to what's occurring for someone who doesn't care, or is just drinking the Kool-Aid. I do worry about the state of the Sisters, and I wouldn't be campaigning so hard for people to support them if I wasn't. 

And I didn't limit the options on how to support them to "buy models" either, I listed emailing them, writing the people in charge (you'll need to write in a professional capacity though if you want them to read it and give you more than a token response I'm sure), and I even agree with Archon Dan: flood them with photos. SHOW them that even if you won't spend your money on new models that you still have a vested interest in what they're doing and you are willing to spend money when the release finally occurs.

Not everything you can do costs money, but a lot of it is better than muck-raking against someone who isn't even here to defend themselves, or their choices because you don't agree with what you see. 

So in the end I put this to all of you: we (as a community of players) can collectively circle-jerk about how much GW is ruining the army, and is going to leave it out in the cold, ect.

Or we can prove to them that we want them to update the army and that we'll gladly climb back aboard the consumer train when it is.

I don't know about you, but I'm tired of running in circles doing the first one and am going with the second. Hell it's inspired me to actually force myself to paint up all of my models so I can flood GW with pictures of them.


----------



## DeSteele

So if you are planning to write or email to Games Workshop, to whom should you address your letter or email?
Addresses please if known.

Thanks


----------



## Zion

DeSteele said:


> So if you are planning to write or email to Games Workshop, to whom should you address your letter or email?
> Addresses please if known.
> 
> Thanks


Well for mail, I'd go with this one for best effect:

[Inset name of your chosen dev, Tom Kirby, or whomever here]
Games Workshop
Willow Road
Lenton
Nottingham
NG7 2WS

If you're going to email in pictures the Daily White Dwarf email is here:
[email protected]

Now I don't have email addresses for the developers as GW doesn't have those publicly available, but those would be my starting places for everything.


----------



## Kettu

@Zion, Mokuren & Arcane, please keep this up, lets see if we can get a full rainbow happening here.:laugh:

Meanwhile...

@Silver Tabby, thanks for the information.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> @Zion, Mokuren & Arcane, please keep this up, lets see if we can get a full rainbow happening here.:laugh:


What about a DOUBLE RAINBOW? :shok:

On a more serious note, I'd likely end up causing that to hit the character limit through my ever increasing post size. I mean look at all that green!


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> Arcane, don't mistake a collected, and calm reaction to what's occurring for someone who doesn't care, or is just drinking the Kool-Aid. I do worry about the state of the Sisters, and I wouldn't be campaigning so hard for people to support them if I wasn't.
> 
> And I didn't limit the options on how to support them to "buy models" either, I listed emailing them, writing the people in charge (you'll need to write in a professional capacity though if you want them to read it and give you more than a token response I'm sure), and I even agree with Archon Dan: flood them with photos. SHOW them that even if you won't spend your money on new models that you still have a vested interest in what they're doing and you are willing to spend money when the release finally occurs.
> 
> Not everything you can do costs money, but a lot of it is better than muck-raking against someone who isn't even here to defend themselves, or their choices because you don't agree with what you see.
> 
> So in the end I put this to all of you: we (as a community of players) can collectively circle-jerk about how much GW is ruining the army, and is going to leave it out in the cold, ect.
> 
> Or we can prove to them that we want them to update the army and that we'll gladly climb back aboard the consumer train when it is.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I'm tired of running in circles doing the first one and am going with the second. Hell it's inspired me to actually force myself to paint up all of my models so I can flood GW with pictures of them.


Sorry no way to keep up the formatting on the ultra quote box at my present location... 
I have to disagree with you there about what is hurting the SoB, player base or GW. I have seen many new players walk through the doors of several game stores over the years. Their train of thought is never "What do the people on the internet think?" No, you have to realize that ourselves, and the other frequent visitors of Heresy, Dakka, Warseer etc are the minority in the 40k world. The majority conversely, just go to their 
game stores and play with their friends a few times a week. We are the ultra-metagaming conceptual players, while most are simply casual, fun 
seeking types. 

What is their train of thought? It's usually first, "What do I have the money for?" Strike 1 against SoB (point GW). Then "What does my FLGS/GW have on the shelves?" Strike 2 against SoB (point GW). And finally, what do I really want to play and what are my friends playing. This one circles back to the others... I really doubt though that for the majority of players, and this may be different for those stationed on base or in remote locations, the opinion of a minority-within-a-minority matters to them when choosing an army. The majority of players will never even attend a tourney or write down a detailed background for their army like you or I may. 
My point is that the strongest factor hurting sales of SoB are GW themselves through their business practices. There's a reason you don't see everyone driving Tesla roadsters down the street and it mostly comes down to price, availability and practicality over attitude of the roadster community. 

To address your numbered points as to reasons they haven't released a PDF. 
1. This is possible 
2. Over a year is certainly worth taking the 5 minutes to upload a PDF to their FTP server and post a link to it on their website. It was worth it after only a few months and each new month/year doesn't excuse the negligence. 
3. Again, this is certainly possible, however they are equably as likely to releasing an entirely new codex, in which case see the previous point. 
4. With the amount of people involved this is extremely unlikely. Between the editors, printing company, executives etc who would have had copies of the files. 
5. As someone who regularly works in the graphics business I can tell you, this would literally take an experienced worker half an hour at most to release. 
6. I would say something more along the lines or poor business practices. 

As for throwing tantrums on the internet, I personally see it as the best way to do it. We all have pent up frustrations and many of us, especially myself, are often too busy to be able to blow it off on a real punching bag or take a jog. Typing out how you feel in some text is the next best thing to talking to a friend about it. Heck, I'm sure my RL friends who play 40k don't want to hear my frustrations at GW about SoB. I have to already hear them complain about their Necrons and Blood Angels they play, to which I just laugh and nod, trying to be a good friend. 
It's great that you search for tidbits for the SoB and 40k in general but IMO you are wasting your time. No, I don't think it's productive in the least. Let's say you find some actual rumor about SoB... it's still just a rumor, no more credible than the ol leaked codex or leaked 6th ed or early 2012 which turned out to all be big fat red hearings. Until GW updates their website or store front with something solid, none of it matters more than the 
digital letters it's typed from. There are simply no answers to be found at this point. Sorry. 

Then again back to the point about people on the internet turning people off from buying something... I repeat the point that we are the minority here and it doesn't effect most people. If it were true [email protected] would have shut down GW sales years ago lol. Look at how nasty the communities online are for things like Digimon or Pokemon (or don't lol, you're better off), yet they sell in droves because the majority of fans don't care if there's a huge, disgusting, rabid fan base for Digimon pronz on the internet. 

Silvertabby already confirmed what I thought all along. The sole reason that SoB haven't had much true attention is because there is no on in the 
studio who cares for them, plays them and actually gives 2 shits. This was my point all along. No, I don't think that GW hates them (although I did throw out the word misogynist, hyperbole give me a break) but I honestly think that the state of them currently is GW's fault and due to it's members really not caring if they succeed or fail. And yes, I do think this comes down to a very Freudian, sub-conscious, Anglo way of thinking 
which doesn't like to focus on anything else than a heroic male figure with large muscles saving the day. 

The real nail in the coffin "Do I want to play sisters" *looks at wallet* "hmm... can't afford it" *looks at shelves in stores* "hmm... can't impulse buy it". Nail pounded. In regards to who's opinion carries more credit and weight? Who cares? In a couple months I'll forget about this conversation ever 
happening. 

If I poisoned the well it's only from being tired of the same stale taste of it's stagnate waters. 
The whole sum of this post? The majority of fans don't care about what is said in the dark recesses of the interwebz about a small army in the game, and GW sure as hell doesn't care. Jez Goodwin isn't going to suddenly log onto Heresy and pat you on the back and say he is forwarding your post up to management. Conversely he also isn't going to say "man those SoB players are nasty on the forums, let's just drop that army". 
No, the answer to the problem is someone in GW management having a stroke and leaving an opening for someone who has fresh ideas and a liberal approach to development. I DO support GW through the thousands of dollars I have spent between my SoB, GKs and IG which I could probably run a 10k+ point army with, so forgive me if I speak freely.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Sorry no way to keep up the formatting on the ultra quote box at my present location...


At this point it's likely for the best that we didn't anyways, that sucker was HUGE.



Arcane said:


> I have to disagree with you there about what is hurting the SoB, player base or GW. I have seen many new players walk through the doors of several game stores over the years. Their train of thought is never "What do the people on the internet think?" No, you have to realize that ourselves, and the other frequent visitors of Heresy, Dakka, Warseer etc are the minority in the 40k world. The majority conversely, just go to their game stores and play with their friends a few times a week. We are the ultra-metagaming conceptual players, while most are simply casual, fun seeking types.
> 
> What is their train of thought? It's usually first, "What do I have the money for?" Strike 1 against SoB (point GW). Then "What does my FLGS/GW have on the shelves?" Strike 2 against SoB (point GW). And finally, what do I really want to play and what are my friends playing. This one circles back to the others... I really doubt though that for the majority of players, and this may be different for those stationed on base or in remote locations, the opinion of a minority-within-a-minority matters to them when choosing an army. The majority of players will never even attend a tourney or write down a detailed background for their army like you or I may.
> My point is that the strongest factor hurting sales of SoB are GW themselves through their business practices. There's a reason you don't see everyone driving Tesla roadsters down the street and it mostly comes down to price, availability and practicality over attitude of the roadster community.


You point out new players like they're the only factor, but veteran players DO consider the internet. Not everyone is on the message boards, but just about all of us can use Google. And all it takes is someone going "Sisters of Battle? I wonder about those..." and running across all the (to be frank) shit that is out there dragging them through the mud. We obviously aren't a ready target for most new players (unless they're internet savy, or decide to dig a little into the game), but when it comes to the established player, we don't do any favours to ourself, our army, or each other by yelling "Fuck GW" on the internet.

Not to mention our position looks really weak if we yell "Fuck GW" while we continue to buy GW....



Arcane said:


> To address your numbered points as to reasons they haven't released a PDF.
> 1. This is possible
> 2. Over a year is certainly worth taking the 5 minutes to upload a PDF to their FTP server and post a link to it on their website. It was worth it after only a few months and each new month/year doesn't excuse the negligence. _I don't know if you go onto their website very often, but they've taken ALL the articles down. The only downloads I can find are the paint conversion chart, and the FAQs. Even the Apoc datasheets are gone. I don't see free GW articles continuing to be a thing. I am going to bet on it being White Dwarf and iPad only from here on out._
> 3. Again, this is certainly possible, however they are equably as likely to releasing an entirely new codex, in which case see the previous point. _We don't know what GW is planning, or how they're planning on keeping the Sisters floating for the time being until we see something in hardback._
> 4. With the amount of people involved this is extremely unlikely. Between the editors, printing company, executives etc who would have had copies of the files. _I'm going to put my money that most of this is done via a central internal server to minimize delays between people getting the most current of anything, and ensure that everyone gets the same thing. And if it is, then it's really not that hard for the only copy to get lost or misplaced because someone screwed up (moved the file, mislabelled it, deleted it thinking it was a test copy of the rules....ect)_
> 5. As someone who regularly works in the graphics business I can tell you, this would literally take an experienced worker half an hour at most to release. _GW is proving time and time again that when it comes to the "new media" game, they are not experienced, nor have they hired anyone who really is experienced. They're competing with free services (like Heresy for example) and yet they act like they're the only way for anyone to read about them, to get tutorials, or even see what's new. So it may take an EXPERIENCED worker half an hour, but we can't even time GW with a Sun Dial when it comes to how long it takes them to adjust.
> 
> Frankly they're in the same boat a lot of other traditional media agencies are when it comes to how they need to get the word out there. Now they'll adapt eventually but it's going to take time, and some people who are more versed in the new media to step up with ideas and strategies than the folks in charge of these services now.
> _ 6. I would say something more along the lines or poor business practices. _#6 was a joke. And I wouldn't rate GW's practices as poor as much as dated. They're using an old model that doesn't work any more for a lot of things. They'll adapt eventually but they'll always be behind the curve in that respect._


I did this one with colours just because it was easier than breaking it down into a bunch of small quoted text blocks.



Arcane said:


> As for throwing tantrums on the internet, I personally see it as the best way to do it. We all have pent up frustrations and many of us, especially myself, are often too busy to be able to blow it off on a real punching bag or take a jog.


I don't have a punching bag, can't run more than maybe a block (thanks knees!) and I still can't see yelling at people on the internet as the best method. I've done it in the past and not only did it not fix anything, everyone's tempers got out of control and the Mod Squad had to be called in to throw CS in and lock the thread. There are ways to voice displeasure without throwing a tantrum. For the most part Heresy is a bunch of adults, and honestly I feel we should act the part. We can't sit here and consider ourselves better than the forums who act like children if we don't take the high road and act like adults. That'd make us Hypocrites, and we all know those aren't any better than Hipsters.



Arcane said:


> Typing out how you feel in some text is the next best thing to talking to a friend about it. Heck, I'm sure my RL friends who play 40k don't want to hear my frustrations at GW about SoB. I have to already hear them complain about their Necrons and Blood Angels they play, to which I just laugh and nod, trying to be a good friend.


You and I have been back and forthing for a number of posts now, and I've refrained from tantrum throwing, name-calling, and bashing my keyboard with my head. During all of it I've been sharing opinions, and sharing how I feel the community hurts the army it claims to want to protect, so I know it can be done without tantrum throwing. One can be mature, clear, and still state what they feel all at the same time. These are not contradictory items, they are ones that can be done in conjunction with each other, and you have a stronger point when you do them together.



Arcane said:


> It's great that you search for tidbits for the SoB and 40k in general but IMO you are wasting your time. No, I don't think it's productive in the least. Let's say you find some actual rumor about SoB... it's still just a rumor, no more credible than the ol leaked codex or leaked 6th ed or early 2012 which turned out to all be big fat red hearings. Until GW updates their website or store front with something solid, none of it matters more than the
> digital letters it's typed from. There are simply no answers to be found at this point. Sorry.


Look at the number of posts I have. More than 80% of those are in the Rumours and News thread. Sharing rumours, news, and even discussing them is something I enjoy doing, even if they turn out to only be rumours. To you it's a waste of time, to me it's a fun little side hobby that let's me give something to the people here on Heresy. I just break out a slightly finer, Sisters-net to cast at the internet once in a while to see what dredges up.



Arcane said:


> Then again back to the point about people on the internet turning people off from buying something... I repeat the point that we are the minority here and it doesn't effect most people. If it were true [email protected] would have shut down GW sales years ago lol. Look at how nasty the communities online are for things like Digimon or Pokemon (or don't lol, you're better off), yet they sell in droves because the majority of fans don't care if there's a huge, disgusting, rabid fan base for Digimon pronz on the internet.


Heresy has almost 37,000 accounts at the time of this post. Warseer has 80,915, DakkaDakka has 66,748, and Bolter and Chainsword has 61,318. Now that's 245,981 members in just these few forums. And that's not counting speciality boards, small community boards, boards in languages other than English...the list goes on. I'm willing to bet that at LEAST a third or more of the people who play a Games Workshop game are online somewhere in a community that talks about these kinds of things. And that number doesn't cover anyone who follows blogs, plogs, sites like Faeit, who browse forums but never join or post...

You get the idea. We're living in a digital age. If you have a computer handy and you play a Games Workshop game chances are you'll turn to the internet for something related to it sooner or later. Tactics, information about what might be coming, how to paint, how to model, cool models, model reviews, what kind of army builds are out there, what kinds of things other armies might bring if you were to play against them...the list goes on. And you can't say that sooner or later someone might see or hear something about the Sisters of Battle and want to know more....and if you're already online...where are you going to look? Online. That's the problem. The internet is our well, and when we piss in it, we ruin the source. You don't see it as a big deal, but I do. It may not effect Timmy off the street right now, but maybe he sees that picture of Saint Celestine painted up all awesome somewhere and wants to know which army has that neat looking model....and then he runs across one of the 8 Trillion anti-Sisters posts that sit their and rail at the skies like GW is the only one to blame for everything...that's one less potential Sisters player who won't even get any further.

You might think I'm exaggerating, but first impressions mean a lot. They are the lens that colours how we see everything related to it. My first impression of the Sisters was the Exorcist tank on the GW site. I got lucky, if it had been the negative cries of how GW was going to ruin everything about the Sisters I'd likely would have missed out on an army I enjoy a lot.

And before it's mentioned, I know those numbers aren't astronomical, but realistically we're not a massed hobby like MtG that is sweeping the nation. It's a smaller hobby, so the player (and GW's customer base) is smaller. But the thing is that these days I'm willing to bet that more and more of those players are finding a home online where they can share their passion with other people who enjoy the hobby too. I wouldn't be too surprised to find that we have a surprisingly high amount of players to online activity ratio to be honest. I'm willing to guess we have a lot more of our small base online, supporting each other than most hobbies do.



Arcane said:


> Silvertabby already confirmed what I thought all along. The sole reason that SoB haven't had much true attention is because there is no on in the
> studio who cares for them, plays them and actually gives 2 shits.


Odd, I read this:


SilverTabby said:


> Writing Codeces isn't like writing computer programs. You can't just have one dumped in front of you and be told "have this ready for next week". Creative projects are always something of a difficult beast to handle.
> 
> The Sisters are a niche army, that have a very specific style and feel. Andy was a Sisters player and enthusiast. He *got* them. None of the other guys in Games Dev got them in quite the same way (between me and him, we were pretty much the only Sisters players in the main Studio). Now, you give them to someone who hasn't got that feel for them, and what you're likely to end up with is IG-heavy or Marines-light.
> 
> If you're doing a full reboot like with DE or Necrons, or even just the step-up like Daemonhunters got, then you need it to be right. This is why we got the WDdex - it stripped out everything that wasn't Sisters, whilst ensuring the army was still playable in 6th, without adding anything that would need removing when the redo came about. This is why I wasn't upset at the WDDex - I knew what it meant. But the last thing you want is your codex handed to someone who will go "man, really? Sisters? Why me?"


And got the feeling that the problem wasn't a lack of caring, it was a lack of knowing where to take them. Not everyone looks at an army and say "a parody of the Catholic Church with an army of crusading women who only use specific kinds of weapons due to a religious significance? I've got TONS of ideas for that!" I'm sure Tabby can probably correct me on this, but I always get the feeling that there only so many studio guys, and of those, not a whole lot of the model painters or artists play. That leaves mostly the rules dev/writing team. Of that handful I find it completely reasonable that there weren't any Sisters players left when Andy left. They were Andy's creation, his pet project and his vision originally. He left the reigns hanging when he left and I really can't blame the studio for that.



Arcane said:


> This was my point all along. No, I don't think that GW hates them (although I did throw out the word misogynist, hyperbole give me a break) but I honestly think that the state of them currently is GW's fault and due to it's members really not caring if they succeed or fail. And yes, I do think this comes down to a very Freudian, sub-conscious, Anglo way of thinking which doesn't like to focus on anything else than a heroic male figure with large muscles saving the day.


I think you're taking the psychology of the company to far and making judgement calls about people you don't know. You insist that the only way they can think is that they must on some level not want Sisters to work. I think that it just comes down to not having the right ideas on where to take them that is really hurting the Sisters on the dev side, not some deep seated need to see women bumped back to the wayside and into the kitchen.



Arcane said:


> The real nail in the coffin "Do I want to play sisters" *looks at wallet* "hmm... can't afford it" *looks at shelves in stores* "hmm... can't impulse buy it". Nail pounded. In regards to who's opinion carries more credit and weight? Who cares? In a couple months I'll forget about this conversation ever
> happening.


"I just heard about this army! Let's look online. Oh wow, look at all that shit they're spewing. Never mind, I don't want to play an army that has people like that playing it. People might think I'm like them!"

Both arguments are equally valid here. The price point and immediate availability is just as damning as the stuff that goes online that makes us look bad. I can't fix the price point, but at least I can do is make my voice heard in this tiny sea of angst, preaching a message of support, and why the army is worth the time of day if you can find the energy to give it a chance..



Arcane said:


> If I poisoned the well it's only from being tired of the same stale taste of it's stagnate waters.


Quit drinking from the well if you think the water is so bad then, because stagnant waters are just as deadly, if not a more painful way to go, than poisoned one. 




Arcane said:


> The whole sum of this post? The majority of fans don't care about what is said in the dark recesses of the interwebz about a small army in the game, and GW sure as hell doesn't care. Jez Goodwin isn't going to suddenly log onto Heresy and pat you on the back and say he is forwarding your post up to management. Conversely he also isn't going to say "man those SoB players are nasty on the forums, let's just drop that army".


In 2012, where everyone who can afford to play a GW game can likely afford a smart phone, the internet and is in the age bracket to be using the internet, I wouldn't claim "the majority" of fans aren't in the "dark recesses" of the internet. We play a niche hobby, so ALL related sites are "dark recesses" on the internet when compared to the big stuff like Facebook and Youtube.

But here's the thing, there is a lot of overlap in this community. People who visit multiple boards and share things between them. Don't you think that the kind of positive approach, mature way of thinking and not shouting about it could bleed over to those are parts of our online community and give Sisters a better name, a stronger fan base and more support? Or do you firmly believe the world is so full of shit, hate and angst that the only logical solution is to rage against a company that you buy things from and not possibly believe that we can make our community better?

I'm not saying that we can't be mad at GW, or even disapprove of what they do. I'm saying we can have a stronger, more unified voice by doing it like adults. Corporations don't listen to children after all, but they do bend to the pocketbooks and thus demands of adults.

It's well established GW is walled off to our input online, but it doesn't mean we can't handle it on other ways. And by approaching the problem in a more direct, and unified manner, rather than like children crying on the floor as we flail our limbs we have a better chance of being heard and listened too.

But maybe that's just my way of looking at it.



Arcane said:


> No, the answer to the problem is someone in GW management having a stroke and leaving an opening for someone who has fresh ideas and a liberal approach to development. I DO support GW through the thousands of dollars I have spent between my SoB, GKs and IG which I could probably run a 10k+ point army with, so forgive me if I speak freely.


I will be blunt: no. I don't forgive you. You're an adult. Accountable for the actions and words that come from your mouth. The internet does not make you less accountable for those words and actions. By perpetuating the idea of acting like an entitled child, and even defending it as a right you have shown that your interest is not in the army you play, the community you are a part of, your fellow Sisters players or anyone else. Every post you've made has been about what you want, what you think and how mad you are at GW.

Here's the bottom line: when you come onto a message board, or join a community, or generally extend yourself past your shell of "this is me", you are no longer "free". You are bound by social contracts, obligations, and even rules and laws set in place to ensure that all parties are treated fairly, justly and no one gets dicked over. When you choose to ignore such things you instead devalue the other person's rights, freedoms and even their happiness for the sake of only yourself. You can sit there and tell me it all doesn't matter, even after being presented with a number of ways it can and does, but it doesn't make you right in what you're doing, how you behave or the kind of stunt you're pulling in an attempt to get attention on the internet like a child throwing a tantrum in the candy aisle.

Now this is not to say that you have to sacrifice all happiness, freedom, or liberty to appease others. After all, all these things are only bound by a social contract, and in the internet that social contract is only good for as long as you participate in it (lest the powers that be intervene). But you do need to bend. It is not your happiness, or even mine in the end that matters because at the end the rights on both sides must be satisfied. I only call for people to act as the adults they should be by these very contracts, like in the case of the one we have on Heresy, as instated by Jez and upheld by the Mods (that is found here) with such tenants as:


Jezlad said:


> *Thread hi-jacking will not be tolerated.* All posters must respect the rights of other members to post questions, comments and ideas that do not agree with their own. Please keep your posts "on topic" i.e. relevant to the subject(s) of the thread.


. Now I've brought this up before, and asked you to keep such thread derailing, GW bashing nonsense out of these kinds of threads before. I even sat here and debated with you for a number of posts, and used reason on why the bashing doesn't help anyone. But as I can't force a horse to drink, I can't force you to see reason. I've lead you to the stream of reason and understanding but you refuse to even give it a sip and instead stick to the trough of knee-jerking, fingerpointing and tantrum throwing.

So no, I am not going to continue to forgive your failure to uphold this social contract. You continue to violate it at whim to appease yourself and in flagrant disregard for your fellow community members, Sisters players and human beings. You can go piss on the parade if you want, but keep it in threads were it is actually appropriate. Hell start a General Discussion topic on it if you really want, but don't bring it into News and Rumours. It's not News, it's not a Rumour, it's just you standing on the couch yelling at everyone nearby to look at you and how awesome you are by sticking it to the man on the internet. And frankly I'm done playing this game with you.

Back onto the actual topic of this thread:

Tabby, you got anything else worth throwing in on that? Or an opinion on how Crudace stands with the Sisters?


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> At this point it's likely for the best that we didn't anyways, that sucker was HUGE.
> 
> You point out new players like they're the only factor, but veteran players DO consider the internet. Not everyone is on the message boards, but just about all of us can use Google. And all it takes is someone going "Sisters of Battle? I wonder about those..." and running across all the (to be frank) shit that is out there dragging them through the mud. We obviously aren't a ready target for most new players (unless they're internet savy, or decide to dig a little into the game), but when it comes to the established player, we don't do any favours to ourself, our army, or each other by yelling "Fuck GW" on the internet.
> 
> Not to mention our position looks really weak if we yell "Fuck GW" while we continue to buy GW....
> 
> _You may need to refresh my memory and point me to the thread where I said "Fuck GW" because I wasn't able to find it. _
> 
> 
> Look at the number of posts I have. More than 80% of those are in the Rumours and News thread. Sharing rumours, news, and even discussing them is something I enjoy doing, even if they turn out to only be rumours. To you it's a waste of time, to me it's a fun little side hobby that let's me give something to the people here on Heresy. I just break out a slightly finer, Sisters-net to cast at the internet once in a while to see what dredges up.
> 
> _Cool beans, and I like to critique. If conversations were just about head nodding you would be better off talking to your dog._
> 
> You get the idea. We're living in a digital age. If you have a computer handy and you play a Games Workshop game chances are you'll turn to the internet for something related to it sooner or later. Tactics, information about what might be coming, how to paint, how to model, cool models, model reviews, what kind of army builds are out there, what kinds of things other armies might bring if you were to play against them...the list goes on. And you can't say that sooner or later someone might see or hear something about the Sisters of Battle and want to know more....and if you're already online...where are you going to look? Online. That's the problem. The internet is our well, and when we piss in it, we ruin the source. You don't see it as a big deal, but I do. It may not effect Timmy off the street right now, but maybe he sees that picture of Saint Celestine painted up all awesome somewhere and wants to know which army has that neat looking model....and then he runs across one of the 8 Trillion anti-Sisters posts that sit their and rail at the skies like GW is the only one to blame for everything...that's one less potential Sisters player who won't even get any further.
> 
> _In that case it wasn't meant for them. Hopefully they get steered in a direction they will enjoy more like Imp Guard or Grey Knights. I certainly wouldn't be playing SoB now if 1k points of them weren't initially given to me back in 4th edition. As other players have pointed out, the price gouging is ridiculous and starting from scratch is buyer beware. The SoB are not a starter army and are a labor of love at this point. How terrible would it be to see a kid struggle with an army because he can't afford another troop choice but already invested his hard earned money into that uber cool Celestine model. Better he learns before than after._
> 
> You might think I'm exaggerating, but first impressions mean a lot. They are the lens that colours how we see everything related to it. My first impression of the Sisters was the Exorcist tank on the GW site. I got lucky, if it had been the negative cries of how GW was going to ruin everything about the Sisters I'd likely would have missed out on an army I enjoy a lot.
> 
> _I'm actually pretty glad I may be steering away new players from the SoB and warning them of the pitfalls of the army. The last thing I would want is for a newbie to go out and spend his hard earned paycheck on something he didn't know about only to find out it isn't supported well by the manufacturer. Did business suffer for that product line? Yes. Was it for a good reason? Yes. You may be willing to sell someone the lemon of an army that SoB are and watch them drive off the car lot, only to come back later asking why the warranty doesn't cover the knock in the engine and how all the replacement parts are backordered, but I'm not. It's called being honest._
> 
> Here's the bottom line: when you come onto a message board, or join a community, or generally extend yourself past your shell of "this is me", you are no longer "free". You are bound by social contracts, obligations, and even rules and laws set in place to ensure that all parties are treated fairly, justly and no one gets dicked over. When you choose to ignore such things you instead devalue the other person's rights, freedoms and even their happiness for the sake of only yourself. You can sit there and tell me it all doesn't matter, even after being presented with a number of ways it can and does, but it doesn't make you right in what you're doing, how you behave or the kind of stunt you're pulling in an attempt to get attention on the internet like a child throwing a tantrum in the candy aisle.
> 
> _Here's the bottom line, when you come onto a message board, or join a community, you have to expect people to disagree with you sometimes and accept that their opinion may be different than you're own. While this can be a hard pill to swallow, even seemingly dissident counter points do not break the rules, as long as they are not vulgar, inflammatory, off topic or harmful. It's unfortunate that you feel the need to deny anyone who disagrees with you the courtesy of airing their opinion but it is part of an adult conversation and not everything said about GW is going to be positive or nice. With that said... _
> 
> Now this is not to say that you have to sacrifice all happiness, freedom, or liberty to appease others. After all, all these things are only bound by a social contract, and in the internet that social contract is only good for as long as you participate in it (lest the powers that be intervene). But you do need to bend. It is not your happiness, or even mine in the end that matters because at the end the rights on both sides must be satisfied. I only call for people to act as the adults they should be by these very contracts, like in the case of the one we have on Heresy, as instated by Jez and upheld by the Mods (that is found here) with such tenants as: . Now I've brought this up before, and asked you to keep such thread derailing, GW bashing nonsense out of these kinds of threads before. I even sat here and debated with you for a number of posts, and used reason on why the bashing doesn't help anyone. But as I can't force a horse to drink, I can't force you to see reason. I've lead you to the stream of reason and understanding but you refuse to even give it a sip and instead stick to the trough of knee-jerking, fingerpointing and tantrum throwing.
> 
> _If you have an issue then you should report it rather than play mod. I'm sorry if my points seem negative to you but they are valid in my opinion and don't break the rules of the forum because they are pertinent to the topic. If you feel they are an effort to personally troll you that is unfortunately not the case, don't give yourself that much credit. _
> 
> So no, I am not going to continue to forgive your failure to uphold this social contract. You continue to violate it at whim to appease yourself and in flagrant disregard for your fellow community members, Sisters players and human beings. You can go piss on the parade if you want, but keep it in threads were it is actually appropriate. Hell start a General Discussion topic on it if you really want, but don't bring it into News and Rumours. It's not News, it's not a Rumour, it's just you standing on the couch yelling at everyone nearby to look at you and how awesome you are by sticking it to the man on the internet. And frankly I'm done playing this game with you.
> 
> Back onto the actual topic of this thread:
> 
> Tabby, you got anything else worth throwing in on that? Or an opinion on how Crudace stands with the Sisters?


While I've enjoyed this philosophical waxing on internet threads, perhaps YOU would like to get back to the point. 

Articles are actually still available on GW's site, they must just be found through a Google search rather than direct linking. Why GW has chosen to remove the links but not the pages for them I have no idea. As I pointed out in one of my earlier "off topic" posts which was actually helpful, they still offer the WH codex for download. If anything it seems more to bring things into line with the overhaul of the WD magazine and it's online supplement, in other words they probably don't want to be competing with themselves. 

and from another angle on the same topic... I think it's a good sign in the SoB's favor that GW has eliminated almost all metal castings at this point, especially with the Orks. They can't have too many machines running for pewter now and hopefully if anything, pure cost on their part will motivate them to at least change over to resin.


----------



## boreas

Because, this thread is already too long, I won't repeating anything he said, but will simply say: Thank you Arcane, I couldn't have exposed that situation in a better way...

So back on topic: Still no PDF, still no possible excuse as far as I'm concerned...


----------



## Mokuren

On the topic of people not having a clue on what to do with Sisters, yeah, that's pretty obvious. The latest WDdex is all the proof you need that people at GW just go "So uh, Sisters of Battle", "Uh...", "Uhm... Bolter and...", "... And power armour?", "So... Marines lite?", "Yeah, I guess...".

And that's it. End of the creative process.

Until this changes, we won't see new ideas, thus no new sculpts, thus no new codex, thus no army, thus we're stuck with models so old they're no longer in scale with the rest of the armies and are really ugly. I mean look at what chaos and DA managed to get with their cheap plastics, are they _still_ saying sisters' robes are a huge, unsurmountable problem?

I don't think so, I'm simply convinced no one has the slightest clue as to what to do with this army, and thus nobody cares.


----------



## Troublehalf

Interesting that they also released another version of the Avenger Strike Fighter, which specially says:

"Following the *Saint-Saen Crusade’s* liberation of twelve worlds in the Segmentum Obscurus, STC patterns were recovered for an air superiority fighter, smaller and more agile than the iconic Thunderbolt. The Lightning has since been disseminated to other worlds with strong ties to the Imperial Navy – notably Bakka and Hydraphur – and production has recently begun within the Segmentum Solar, resulting in the Voss Pattern Lightning Strike Fighter. "

I highlighted the main bit... I thought Saints were linked exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy, therefore.... The inclusion of a second air unit.... With the first one having the description of "The Avenger is often specifically requested by the Adeptus Sororitas should they require close support in their purgations" - This means the second one is also going to be used by the SoB... The mention of the Saints' Crusade suggests more fluff has been created for the aircraft, with only one other mention of the Saint and that is in some Chaos book, I'd have to find it again.

Who knows? Perhaps they'll do what they've been doing recently, which is little bits at a go. Like, Warriors of Chaos got the Shrine and new units and HQ and so on, but no codex, with their codex after DA (rumoured). So, perhaps it'll just be a longer stretch for SoB?


----------



## Suijin

I don't think they have abandoned SoB, but people do have a point that it is (as far as I know) the only codex you can not buy in any form from GW, and very hard/expensive to get elsewhere legally.

I think they have to rework the entire line and that takes a lot of work. Some of the other codices they could at least recycle large portions of the models till they finished the remaining. Also with the release of 6th, the starter sets, LotR, flyers for most armies, etc. they have been very busy lately. Not really an excuse but it isn't like they haven't been doing better lately about releases and FAQs, so give them some benefit of the doubt.

Only thing they have really dropped the ball on is no codex for SoB available. At least some people would have bought models and worked on SoB if they could at least have gotten a codex in some form, preferred legally so they can show their face with it.


----------



## SilverTabby

Sorry Zion, Robin's not someone I got to know too well. 

I shall keep an ear to the ground though.


----------



## Arcane

Mokuren said:


> On the topic of people not having a clue on what to do with Sisters, yeah, that's pretty obvious. The latest WDdex is all the proof you need that people at GW just go "So uh, Sisters of Battle", "Uh...", "Uhm... Bolter and...", "... And power armour?", "So... Marines lite?", "Yeah, I guess...".
> 
> And that's it. End of the creative process.
> 
> Until this changes, we won't see new ideas, thus no new sculpts, thus no new codex, thus no army, thus we're stuck with models so old they're no longer in scale with the rest of the armies and are really ugly. I mean look at what chaos and DA managed to get with their cheap plastics, are they _still_ saying sisters' robes are a huge, unsurmountable problem?
> 
> I don't think so, I'm simply convinced no one has the slightest clue as to what to do with this army, and thus nobody cares.


I think yes and no. I'm sure people in GW care, but they just don't really know -what- to do and no one cares _enough _for it to make a difference. Like Suijin said, it's really dropping the ball especially with the no codex available for over a year now. 3 months was really too long for no codex to be available. That more than anything else is hurting SoB sales. 

And yeah, I get other players saying to me all the time "They are basicly Marines light right?" to which I kind of sigh, but the fact they are so good against Marines and they usually get trounced makes up for it a bit.



Troublehalf said:


> Interesting that they also released another version of the Avenger Strike Fighter, which specially says:
> 
> "Following the Saint-Saen Crusade’s liberation of twelve worlds in the Segmentum Obscurus, STC patterns were recovered for an air superiority fighter, smaller and more agile than the iconic Thunderbolt. The Lightning has since been disseminated to other worlds with strong ties to the Imperial Navy – notably Bakka and Hydraphur – and production has recently begun within the Segmentum Solar, resulting in the Voss Pattern Lightning Strike Fighter. "
> 
> I highlighted the main bit... I thought Saints were linked exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy, therefore.... The inclusion of a second air unit.... With the first one having the description of "The Avenger is often specifically requested by the Adeptus Sororitas should they require close support in their purgations" - This means the second one is also going to be used by the SoB... The mention of the Saints' Crusade suggests more fluff has been created for the aircraft, with only one other mention of the Saint and that is in some Chaos book, I'd have to find it again.
> 
> Who knows? Perhaps they'll do what they've been doing recently, which is little bits at a go. Like, Warriors of Chaos got the Shrine and new units and HQ and so on, but no codex, with their codex after DA (rumoured). So, perhaps it'll just be a longer stretch for SoB?


Good point. It's nice to see Forgeworld throwing the SoB a bit of a bone and including them in the fluff. Who knows, maybe it's a sign of things to come?


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> Because, this thread is already too long, I won't repeating anything he said, but will simply say: Thank you Arcane, I couldn't have exposed that situation in a better way...
> 
> So back on topic: Still no PDF, still no possible excuse as far as I'm concerned...


I wouldn't claim that anything is exposing anything. We're at the point now where we have 1 argument that has been floating around since the dawn of 40k that says that GW is the sole reason anything happens. It's currently being applied to Sisters. 

Since money for GW to do things with, and funds the process that prioritizes things, comes from our pocketbooks primarily I believe the customer base has more to do with things than they realize, or admit.



Mokuren said:


> On the topic of people not having a clue on what to do with Sisters, yeah, that's pretty obvious. The latest WDdex is all the proof you need that people at GW just go "So uh, Sisters of Battle", "Uh...", "Uhm... Bolter and...", "... And power armour?", "So... Marines lite?", "Yeah, I guess...".
> 
> And that's it. End of the creative process.
> 
> Until this changes, we won't see new ideas, thus no new sculpts, thus no new codex, thus no army, thus we're stuck with models so old they're no longer in scale with the rest of the armies and are really ugly. I mean look at what chaos and DA managed to get with their cheap plastics, are they _still_ saying sisters' robes are a huge, unsurmountable problem?
> 
> I don't think so, I'm simply convinced no one has the slightest clue as to what to do with this army, and thus nobody cares.


Sisters are in scale with Marines, it's everyone else who is out of scale. :grin:

More seriously, I believe the robe problem wasn't the skirt section but the sleeves that were the problem. What don't they Dark Angels have? Sleeves. Sisters have a unique design issue in the age of multi-pose kits that doesn't occur in other armies.

Honestly I'd rather see dynamic looking, static pose kits that say, use hand and head swaps to accomplish giving them different weapon and head options than have a kit I could repose the hell out of. But that's just me, there are people who want that reposeability and GW caters to them too, so I think they're stuck in that middle ground on how to accomplish it without losing any of the iconic look of the Sisters as a whole.

The hair was the other issue I remember hearing about since the hair often gets in the way of the high collar piece of the armour, causing it to collide and overlap. This could mean that the hair style is going to change a bit to accomidate that collar peice, or that collar may have to be moved and widened to surround the head more, or any number of things.

The point is, we don't know how many design problems the old models are presenting in the plastic kit design. Jez may be handling it by making small tweaks and changes, or he could be drastically rework whole parts of the model to look drastically different to match instead. 

We simply don't know yet.



Troublehalf said:


> Interesting that they also released another version of the Avenger Strike Fighter, which specially says:
> 
> "Following the *Saint-Saen Crusade’s* liberation of twelve worlds in the Segmentum Obscurus, STC patterns were recovered for an air superiority fighter, smaller and more agile than the iconic Thunderbolt. The Lightning has since been disseminated to other worlds with strong ties to the Imperial Navy – notably Bakka and Hydraphur – and production has recently begun within the Segmentum Solar, resulting in the Voss Pattern Lightning Strike Fighter. "
> 
> I highlighted the main bit... I thought Saints were linked exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy, therefore.... The inclusion of a second air unit.... With the first one having the description of "The Avenger is often specifically requested by the Adeptus Sororitas should they require close support in their purgations" - This means the second one is also going to be used by the SoB... The mention of the Saints' Crusade suggests more fluff has been created for the aircraft, with only one other mention of the Saint and that is in some Chaos book, I'd have to find it again.
> 
> Who knows? Perhaps they'll do what they've been doing recently, which is little bits at a go. Like, Warriors of Chaos got the Shrine and new units and HQ and so on, but no codex, with their codex after DA (rumoured). So, perhaps it'll just be a longer stretch for SoB?





Suijin said:


> I don't think they have abandoned SoB, but people do have a point that it is (as far as I know) the only codex you can not buy in any form from GW, and very hard/expensive to get elsewhere legally.
> 
> I think they have to rework the entire line and that takes a lot of work. Some of the other codices they could at least recycle large portions of the models till they finished the remaining. Also with the release of 6th, the starter sets, LotR, flyers for most armies, etc. they have been very busy lately. Not really an excuse but it isn't like they haven't been doing better lately about releases and FAQs, so give them some benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Only thing they have really dropped the ball on is no codex for SoB available. At least some people would have bought models and worked on SoB if they could at least have gotten a codex in some form, preferred legally so they can show their face with it.


I think you mean the Lighting, not the Avenger...

That aside, from what I gather the Saints aren't limited to the Sisters. According to Lexicanum Sainthood is typically posthumously, though there are Living Saints who only seem to be Sisters. Apparently to be declared a Living Saint the Inquisition has to be involved to confirm that the individuals is indeed free of the taint of Chaos.



SilverTabby said:


> Sorry Zion, Robin's not someone I got to know too well.
> 
> I shall keep an ear to the ground though.


I only ask because he's the only one I know of who is not only using Sisters, but is publicly mentioning them from time to time (like in the Crusade of Fire). If he's a true Sisters Fanatic we may have the proper ace up our sleeves to see a decent codex soon.

That is if he doesn't just think Sisters are just Vet Guard with Power Armour, Boobs and Bolters or Diet Marines. The WD Codex isn't really enough to know for sure.


----------



## Arcane

I think he meant "expressed" but can't be sure, because it makes more sense in the sentence, either way... 

As for living saints, Grey Knights could probably also be saints except for the fact their existence is denied, thus who would know and why bother declaring them! lol. Non SoB examples of Saints would be Saint Basillius who condemned Astartes Legions to the Abyssal Crusade, Saint Euphrati Keeler who was the "prophet of the Emperor" and Remembrancer, and the *Living Saint* Joaqhuine Desdemondra who is more or less a Vampire and I'm sure there's plenty of other examples... 

Anyhow the Dark Angels codex is a real bright light to the SoB. Shows they are willing to take an ancient army which hasn't been updated in ages and give them a fresh look with a really great model range. The flyers are cool too since the trend seems to be, giving every new army a flyer. I wouldn't be surprised if the SoB eventually got the Avenger although I am hoping they get something completely different which better suits their overall theme and play style (multiple flamers/meltas on a flyer anyone?).


----------



## Boc

Gents, let's keep it civil. Also, please do not use the quote function to misrepresent the words of others.


----------



## boreas

Arcane said:


> I think he meant "expressed" but can't be sure, because it makes more sense in the sentence, either way...


I did... In french (my first language) "exposer" means "to present" my mistake


----------



## Kettu

Arcane said:


> Good point. It's nice to see Forgeworld throwing the SoB a bit of a bone and including them in the fluff. Who knows, maybe it's a sign of things to come?


Redshirt rambles here... Yes, yes, I know 'they know less then cavemen' but...
There has allegedly been word and this has been offhandedly mentioned in the odd rumour or two in the past, that both FW and BL are planing an Age of Apostasy series akin to, though likely of a much smaller scale than, the Horus Heresy releases.

Unlikely to be 'soon' (I hate this word, so contextual. Soon to a child waiting their birthday? Soon to a **** Heidelbergensis awaiting her Sapiens Sapiens children?) but give about a decade(!?) and FW is likely to actually sculpt something new and original _JUST_ for the sisters. (And thrice as many for the Marine chapters involved :alcoholic:, I bet you an Exorcist)

As always, Especially when *I* bring forth rumours, take with salt. This should help.


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> I did... In french (my first language) "exposer" means "to present" my mistake


Ah, okay. That does make more sense.

Either way the point remains that painting GW as a moustache twirling Miniatures Baron isn't really a new stance, it's been done to death since Rogue Trader for just about everything. And in the end what people attribute to malice is simple business (as driven by the consumer because that money doesn't come from nowhere) or choices that are made because of a lack of ideas.

And that's what's really hitting the Sisters. GW hasn't been motivated to work on an army that hasn't really sold in the last 5-10 years (because everyone who plays already owns the models and doesn't need a lot of them to expand their army), and no one internal in the company has had one of the lightbulb moments where they realize they've got a bunch of great ideas for the Sisters.

Add in technology not being there for the sculpts (I'm betting the Sisters will need to be done via the more complex molds (sorry, drawing a blank here on what they're called) than your standard Marine has to be done on, something that they just couldn't do even a few years ago), and a sculptor being up to the task (on both skill and inspiration level) and you come out with the Sisters sitting on the back burner for a while.

But if the scuttlebutt is true, we may not be simmering for *too* much longer (my money is no later than 2014 at the latest. There are even a couple holes in the 2013 schedule that the Sisters could feasibly be put in as well, assuming they're ready).


----------



## boreas

Zion said:


> Ah, okay. That does make more sense.
> 
> Either way the point remains that painting GW as a moustache twirling Miniatures Baron isn't really a new stance, it's been done to death since Rogue Trader for just about everything. And in the end what people attribute to malice is simple business (as driven by the consumer because that money doesn't come from nowhere) or choices that are made because of a lack of ideas.


I still think that it's acompany's responsability to make it's product attractive so that customers buy it. Not the reverse that customers have to buy a product to make producing it attractive for a company. And in the Sisters' case, GW _seem_ to have gone out of it's way not to make that army attractive. Giving them a bigger coverage in the 6th ed. book won't do anything for the army. In my experience, what makes people want to start or expand an army (thus keeping it alive) are rules and models. 

Now, neither GW nor FW have given anything to sisters in way too long. I understand that a full plastic kit is way too much of an investment. What about just a FW unit? Something as simple as a turret make the hellhound in a SoB tank. A single new Finecast Canoness? 

On the rule side, GW has put out a playable albeit drab WD codex. But it hasn't the really (and I mean _really_) simple effort of making that codex availably on it's website. When a company doesn't make such a simple effort to please it's customers, those customers have right to question the company's motive.

In both cases, it seems to me that GW has failed to extend an olive branch to customers that have invested a lot in their products. As a business owner myself, that is unacceptable. At this point, SoB players would settle for the smallest thing (like that PDF). The fact that GW give nothing leaves me with two possible conclusion: either they are really incompetent (which I can't beleive, seeing how they handle the rest of their business) OR they mean to leave the army to wither on the vine. That's not painting them as "evil Barons", just analyzing the fact with a businessman point of view...


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> I still think that it's acompany's responsability to make it's product attractive so that customers buy it. Not the reverse that customers have to buy a product to make producing it attractive for a company. And in the Sisters' case, GW _seem_ to have gone out of it's way not to make that army attractive. Giving them a bigger coverage in the 6th ed. book won't do anything for the army. In my experience, what makes people want to start or expand an army (thus keeping it alive) are rules and models.


You're right a company SHOULD be trying to push their products. That's where things go tits up though. GW's marketing department has been, and as long as they're around, will be their brick and mortar stores. But what isn't going into the Brick and Mortar stores any more?

Metal models. Those are direct only now that 90% of the metal product line has been replaced or converted to Finecast.

As for the rules, there are some individuals who look at the WD codex and say it's ineffective and it doesn't work. Then there are others (like myself) who use it to great success (first and only game of 6th so far resulted in me nearly tabling an Blood Angels player. Game ended with me holding 3/4 objectives and having him down to 4 models on the table while remaining at about 50% strength). No one will deny the current codex is a bit limited, but frankly we've become spoiled for choice these days. It's enough to play with, has a couple different builds, and I'm noticing more options under the 6th rules that make things valid (Example: Foot Slogging Sisters? Go 20 deep and stick a Priest in every squad to handle challenges. You are now more durable, can let the Superior wack things with her mace more effectively and can slip an Eviscerator into the squad on a model that has a 4++ invulnerable save. Want a hoard eater of a Conclave? Take 9 Arco-Flagellants and Jacobus (or just take 10 Arco-Flagellants and put Jacobus on a blob of Sisters). Want a Conclave that can kill Terminators and can feasibly make it through combat without dying? 9-10 Crusaders with Power Axes. The list really does go on, and that's without me looking at FW, allies, or Fortifications).

Now the thing is that if GW is content to keep selling Sisters as a direct only item and doesn't think we want them too badly, shouldn't we be proving them wrong? It harks back to supply and demand. If we demand, eventually they'll have to supply if the want to keep making money.



boreas said:


> Now, neither GW nor FW have given anything to sisters in way too long. I understand that a full plastic kit is way too much of an investment. What about just a FW unit? Something as simple as a turret make the hellhound in a SoB tank. A single new Finecast Canoness?


Most of FW's stuff is related to Apocalypse stuff or specific campaigns. They're not going to give us new Sisters units without it falling into one of those categories.

On the flipside though, they gave use the Avenger and I like that little gunboat of a flyer.



boreas said:


> On the rule side, GW has put out a playable albeit drab WD codex. But it hasn't the really (and I mean _really_) simple effort of making that codex availably on it's website. When a company doesn't make such a simple effort to please it's customers, those customers have right to question the company's motive.


GW doesn't put any of it's WD released rules on the site as free PDF downloads any more. They've all been iPad download exclusives. Sisters aren't alone in this lack of internet posting.



boreas said:


> In both cases, it seems to me that GW has failed to extend an olive branch to customers that have invested a lot in their products. As a business owner myself, that is unacceptable. At this point, SoB players would settle for the smallest thing (like that PDF). The fact that GW give nothing leaves me with two possible conclusion: either they are really incompetent (which I can't beleive, seeing how they handle the rest of their business) OR they mean to leave the army to wither on the vine. That's not painting them as "evil Barons", just analyzing the fact with a businessman point of view...


It's not all the facts. As a businessman you know (or at least I assume you know) that there are a lot of factors that go into making those kinds of decisions. A couple pages ago I tossed out a few ideas, just off the top of my head on why GW hasn't released it as a PDF. And if they're going the iPad download route there is a lot more work than just slapping it into a conversion program (namely all that extra stuff they've been adding to codex books, like the extra pictures, 360 images, bonus fluff on things like weapons) that would slow down release.

Of course this doesn't include the biggest possible reason of them all:

GW doesn't see the sales data to show them that there are a significant number of Sisters of Battle players at this time, and thus don't see any reason to pull someone off another project (even for that little bit) to work on something that essentially costs them money.

Let's be honest, there aren't a lot of Sisters players out there. Very few of us have started playing them in the recent years (I only started my army in 5th), and a significant portion of the player base is trading around the same batches of models on ebay instead of buying new ones.

Now I'm not condemning, or condoning second hand models, I'm stating the simple truth of the matter: GW can't see those sales. They don't know how many people are buying those models to play with the current rules, and really they can't be sure how many people still own Sisters models from before.

This puts the Sisters firmly where the Dark Eldar where just a few years ago. GW doesn't know how safe this investment in a full army will be, and is pussyfooting around because the bean counters are likely shaking their heads and saying that it doesn't look good.

GW doesn't make it's decisions on what we say or do here, on Dakka, on Warseer, or on Bell of Lost Souls. It makes them based on it's pocketbook. If there is someone in the studio campaigning to update something (and to be honest, Dark Eldar had people in the studio campaigning) then that monetary based decision making can be overruled. But even that takes time, and it takes someone who is invested enough in the nitty gritty about an army that they are willing to spend time working on making that sales pitch again and again until the higher ups relent.

I don't know if we have someone inside acting as our pitchman right now (it's why I asked about Cruddace), but I do know we can affect that pocketbook. And that's why I've been saying for several pages now that if we really want Sisters updated we need to prove it to GW. Flood them with pictures of your armies, buy the occasional new model, hell write them letters (but keep it professional as we don't want to tarnish our actions with accusatory statements, name calling or swearing at them). Do what you need to do to be that pitchman. Make them want to sell to us again, to realize that there is still a market and they'll bring the goods.

In the end I still think the final nail in the coffin that kills won't be based on GW's actions, they've already driven their nails in, it'll be based on the fans and the communities surrounding the Sisters instead. You can disagree if you like, but I'm not taking that chance, risking an army I like to sit back and accuse GW of being the ones to kill an army I didn't even try to protect.


----------



## boreas

Well, you think the ball is in the players camp (vote by buying). I think the ball is in GW's camp (use some honey to lure the flies). At this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree 

Phil


----------



## Zion

boreas said:


> Well, you think the ball is in the players camp (vote by buying). I think the ball is in GW's camp (use some honey to lure the flies). At this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree
> 
> Phil


Voting isn't just done by buying. It's the strongest vote sure, but I've mentioned a few times now that flooding the WD crew with pictures of your army, writing letters and generally harrassing (in the most professional, law-abiding manner possible) the fuck out of them would get them to see there was more out there than just people who want to join the Marine of the Month club.

Honey would lure in new players, and attract older players to start a new army, sure, but it doesn't answer how to motivate GW to look at the Sisters and think "Yeah, we can sell that and make some money".

New Sisters gets people playing, but I'm looking at how to get us to the point where we have new Sisters....

Again, that's just my take. I'm going with a more proactive method of getting GW to notice because I believe that it might be what it takes to get the Sisters moved off the back burner and into being updated faster.


----------



## Arcane

boreas said:


> I still think that it's acompany's responsability to make it's product attractive so that customers buy it. Not the reverse that customers have to buy a product to make producing it attractive for a company. And in the Sisters' case, GW _seem_ to have gone out of it's way not to make that army attractive. Giving them a bigger coverage in the 6th ed. book won't do anything for the army. In my experience, what makes people want to start or expand an army (thus keeping it alive) are rules and models.
> 
> Now, neither GW nor FW have given anything to sisters in way too long. I understand that a full plastic kit is way too much of an investment. What about just a FW unit? Something as simple as a turret make the hellhound in a SoB tank. A single new Finecast Canoness?
> 
> On the rule side, GW has put out a playable albeit drab WD codex. But it hasn't the really (and I mean _really_) simple effort of making that codex availably on it's website. When a company doesn't make such a simple effort to please it's customers, those customers have right to question the company's motive.
> 
> In both cases, it seems to me that GW has failed to extend an olive branch to customers that have invested a lot in their products. As a business owner myself, that is unacceptable. At this point, SoB players would settle for the smallest thing (like that PDF). The fact that GW give nothing leaves me with two possible conclusion: either they are really incompetent (which I can't beleive, seeing how they handle the rest of their business) OR they mean to leave the army to wither on the vine. That's not painting them as "evil Barons", just analyzing the fact with a businessman point of view...


You make some really good points here and I agree. It is a companies responsibility to make a product available at a competitive cost and easily purchasable by a consumer if they expect sales to be good. 

The bottom line with the failure in sales for the SoB range is the unavailability of the codex. This above all else is the primary harm being caused to the SoB. This above all else is the fault of GamesWorkshop.

This is further exacerbated by the lack in updates in the model range. Of course strides could be made which do not take much monetary investment, like giving them models from other ranges like a Stormraven/talon in the army, or as you mention a Hellhound, or even just Stormtroopers or Zaelots could have been added, all without making new models. But this isn't done. 

Image GW made a brand NEW army, who has no community online yet. This army is completely pewter, has no codex unless you download it illegally and is only available through extremely expensive models which are direct order only. Would this army range do well? Would it succeed? Would it do better than the SoB who are supposedly being ruined by their community? 

No, that army would fail, just as the SoB have, and it would be no one elses fault than GW themselves.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> You make some really good points here and I agree. It is a companies responsibility to make a product available at a competitive cost and easily purchasable by a consumer if they expect sales to be good.
> 
> The bottom line with the failure in sales for the SoB range is the unavailability of the codex. This above all else is the primary harm being caused to the SoB. This above all else is the fault of GamesWorkshop.
> 
> This is further exacerbated by the lack in updates in the model range. Of course strides could be made which do not take much monetary investment, like giving them models from other ranges like a Stormraven/talon in the army, or as you mention a Hellhound, or even just Stormtroopers or Zaelots could have been added, all without making new models. But this isn't done.
> 
> Image GW made a brand NEW army, who has no community online yet. This army is completely pewter, has no codex unless you download it illegally and is only available through extremely expensive models which are direct order only. Would this army range do well? Would it succeed? Would it do better than the SoB who are supposedly being ruined by their community?
> 
> No, that army would fail, just as the SoB have, and it would be no one elses fault than GW themselves.


In those specific circumstances. With no internet community, no support of any kind, the blame would rest solely on the company.

But this isn't completely like that. We are involved. We discuss, and banter and argue about these things and criticize and nitpick all kinds of things, and through that we, as a collective whole affect GW. This isn't a tangible thing that can be measured in post counts, or rep scores, but it is a thing.

We often claim that if someone doesn't like something that they need to vote with their wallets. Does not the same tenant hold true if we want to save something?


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> In those specific circumstances. With no internet community, no support of any kind, the blame would rest solely on the company.
> 
> But this isn't completely like that. We are involved. We discuss, and banter and argue about these things and criticize and nitpick all kinds of things, and through that we, as a collective whole affect GW. This isn't a tangible thing that can be measured in post counts, or rep scores, but it is a thing.
> 
> We often claim that if someone doesn't like something that they need to vote with their wallets. Does not the same tenant hold true if we want to save something?


We are talking about an outdated product whose majority of models aren't even from this century let alone this decade. Sisters of Battle models are officially vintage products and some of them almost officially antiques. I could legally sell them in antique stores or on Etsy. Furthermore their codex isn't available. Imagine trying to sell 16 year old computers which no longer come with an owners manual and must be mail ordered but are in otherwise good working condition. Don't be surprised if the public isn't just lining up to buy them. 

So no.

I'm not saying there isn't a market for vintage products, there is. I'm saying it's up to the company to produce something new and support their product if they expect to remain relevant to the market and keep sales going. GW did that in 2003, but it's been 10 years and the time has come to wake up and smell the coffee.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> We are talking about an outdated product whose majority of models aren't even from this century let alone this decade. Sisters of Battle models are officially vintage products and some of them almost officially antiques. I could legally sell them in antique stores or on Etsy. Furthermore their codex isn't available. Imagine trying to sell 16 year old computers which no longer come with an owners manual and must be mail ordered but are in otherwise good working condition. Don't be surprised if the public isn't just lining up to buy them.
> 
> So no.
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't a market for vintage products, there is. I'm saying it's up to the company to produce something new and support their product if they expect to remain relevant to the market and keep sales going. GW did that in 2003, but it's been 10 years and the time has come to wake up and smell the coffee.


Something new would be nice, and I can understand where you're coming from about the models, but I still stand by my point regarding annoying the fuck out of GW with pictures of your army, sending letters, posting on their Facebook, ect.

We don't have to sit here and take it, we can throw the ball back in GW's court and demand they do something. Like you pointed out before, they don't pay attention to the forums, or the chats or the internet in general for input from us. This means if we want to show them that we want something we need to make sure they see it, and see it a lot.


----------



## Necrosis

Does anyone know what happened to the repressor conversion kit?


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> Does anyone know what happened to the repressor conversion kit?


Forge World pulled them down sometime in the last year. My only guess is that somewhere along the lines they noticed the full kit was selling more than the conversion kit and pulled the conversion kit option.


----------



## Arcane

They may have felt that they made a better profit margin by selling the full kit over the cheaper resin conversion parts. Get to move more units at once that way.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> They may have felt that they made a better profit margin by selling the full kit over the cheaper resin conversion parts. Get to move more units at once that way.


This is also possible. With the way the vehicle all fits together I'm surprised people were buying just the conversion kit to be honest. Then again all my Rhinos use the Immolator kit to give me cooler looking vehicles, but some people still rock the regular metal boxes instead.

I guess it's this second metal boxes crowd that was buying them?


----------



## Arcane

It may have been Marine turned Sisters players, or those who found cheap used Rhinos and wanted to convert them. 

We'll never know the answers. Forgeworld gives the impression that they are not very organised after they told me they were updating the SoB rules to include Shield of Faith but never did.


----------



## Necrosis

I just had a bunch of rhinos at home and wanted to upgrade them to Repressors. I didn't have much money and decided it was better to buy the conversion kit since it was cheaper.


----------



## Arcane

You may be out of luck then however sometimes I see the Immolator sprues on ebay (which is essentially the only difference between a SoB rhino and a standard one) for sale in bulk.


----------



## Necrosis

Has anyone used Repressors before? If so what did you think?


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> Has anyone used Repressors before? If so what did you think?


While I haven't used them personally, they look pretty good on paper, though the new rules regarding template weapons kind of hurt the vehicle's effectiveness on the move.


----------



## Necrosis

Repressors can take Laud Hailers for the same point cost as a tau fire warrior. Do you guys think they are worth it?


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> Repressors can take Laud Hailers for the same point cost as a tau fire warrior. Do you guys think they are worth it?


With the way current Laud Hailers work it can't hurt, but I personally don't rely on Faith Points too much (and having Jacobus hanging about allows me to have at least 3 points a turn, and I usually only use 1 or 2 because I don't use Retributors). But if you need them (like using triple Retributors) then I'd say "sure", they may help.


----------



## Arcane

Repressors are very old and suffer from the same problem that Chimeras did before their rewrite. The rules state that you may fire up to 6 *boltguns* from the firing ports and 1 of any weapon from the top hatch. This is something often overlooked. Additionally I'm not sure if it is an open topped vehicle but it seems that it may be? So they are actually not very good for Retributors or other such specialist weapon teams. 

So for the points, I would suggest that an Immolator of cheap Rhino is probably a better option though it may be worth taking Repressors just for fun and they look cool.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Repressors are very old and suffer from the same problem that Chimeras did before their rewrite. The rules state that you may fire up to 6 *boltguns* from the firing ports and 1 of any weapon from the top hatch. This is something often overlooked. Additionally I'm not sure if it is an open topped vehicle but it seems that it may be? So they are actually not very good for Retributors or other such specialist weapon teams.
> 
> So for the points, I would suggest that an Immolator of cheap Rhino is probably a better option though it may be worth taking Repressors just for fun and they look cool.


Immolators have their own issues though too. They're 15 points more expensive than a Repressor (and 30 more than a Rhino), don't have any Firepoints, and the Heavy Flamer is a basically useless option because if the Immolator moves over 6" it can't shoot.

So I'd only take Immolators in very specific situations (like for supporting a small squad of Dominions).

On the flipside, for my Battle Sister Squads the Repressor is a nice choice since more models can overwatch if it's charged (6 Bolters and a Heavy Flamer), and while cheaper than an Immolator it comes with a flamer standard (which can be upgraded with Holy Promethium to force morale checks) and can carry more models.

So in the end it comes down to what you want it for and who is going to ride inside.

EDIT: My mistake the Repressor comes with a Heavy Flamer, not a Flamer. Which means it's 15 points cheaper than an Immolator, carries more models, has a Firepoint, and only loses Twin-Linking on the Heavy Flamer (and has a free Storm Bolter).

So in short, take Immolators for their Heavy Bolter option (which is Twin-Linked, re-rolls wounds and is FREE) or their TL Multi-Melta option. Leave the Heavy Flamer option on the more well rounded tank.


----------



## Necrosis

Don't forget it comes with dozer blades as well.


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> Don't forget it comes with dozer blades as well.


Okay, so why is the Immolator a good choice again?


----------



## Arcane

The Immolator and Rhino are still better for many reasons. 

The primary being mileage. Most tourneys and many player bases won't allow Forgeworld, so you may end up being stuck with a fancy rhino or an expensive paperweight, but of course this is up to you. 

The second being it lacks Shield of Faith due to the laziness of Forgeworld writers. For 5 points less than the Repressor, the Immolator gets a free 6++ invul save, which while not great, can pull off some amazing turns of events in a game. AND it's Heavy Flamer is twin linked so you are rerolling to wound. Nothing ruins a Scarab Swarm's day like these guys. 

Immolators are simply one of the best anti-armor options in the game. Besides a Grey Knight Grandmaster who gives the Scout ability to a Melta armed Landraider, Dominion Immolators are the only Multi-melta equipped vehicle which can scout move out of your deployment zone and essentially destroy any armor on the table on turn 1. Reach out and melt some face! Or, if you are facing overwhelming opposition or go second, just outflank with them and laugh when they get the rear armor on your opponent's vehicles. 

So sure, the Repressor isn't bad for a fun game, are cool models and can be fluffy. But if you want something more competitive and strong, go with cheapo Rhino spam or hard hitting Immolators. 

The look on your opponent's face when you get that 6++ after he wastes an expensive unit to destroy one is just priceless.

Oh an NEVER take Immolators with Heavy Bolters. Retributors are FAR better at such a task.


----------



## Necrosis

I should state a few things. Everyone at my store uses forge-world (by everyone I mean half the people who play there, literally). I will also be transporting them for normal battle sisters not domanions. They also know that Repressor is suppose to have a 6++ even if Forgeworld hasn't updated it yet. Yes I know I'm spoiled with my local GW.


----------



## Arcane

Sounds like a nice store. So looks like they have changed the Repressor quite a bit in different editions. Your best bet is to talk to the guys at your shop and get it's rules straight then decide from there.


----------



## Zion

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

For anyone who wants the current Repressor rules they're in the link above. Page 16. A latter errata in the 6th Edition Vehicle updates gives them 3 hull points.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Then by all means use Repressors as dedicated transport option for your troop choices. Six plus one fire points, heavy flamer and dozer blade make for a fine transport, like Zion mentioned above.
Also, the Repressor is not open-topped, it is only *Tk / T.*

The Immolator should only be taken for the Multi Melta option yes, the 12'' _move-and-burn_ is gone for good, sad as it is. Immolators make for good transports for Dominions, but they're about the only unit to purchase them for.
Also, while being able to scout (12'') and melt (24'') is pretty good, one should consider that there's a lot of heavy weapons out there with a range of 36'' and above. So, yes, the Immolator performs a vital role in the SoB arsenal and makes for a fine first strike weapon, but it'll most often be evaporized after having fired once. Oh, and the actual melta effect reduces your range again to 24'' (12'' & 12'').


----------



## Arcane

My stratagem with the Melta Immolator is, if going first, deploy up 12 (or whatever your zone is) inches, scout up 12 inches, move 6 inches and you then have a shooting range of 24 or a melta range of 12. 

12+12+6+12/24= 42/54 inches. If that isn't enough range for you, you might need to call your local tv infomercial about some extenz and natural enhancement!

Now this is done best when you are fairly sure you are going first (helped out by allying in Coteaz which I personally highly recommend) and not facing someone like Imotek or Vect. If your opponent has an assaulty unit like a Furioso Dreadnought or a Landraider full of Death Company they are going to want to put them as far forward as possible in their own deployment zone, which makes it ripe for the pickens with this tactic. 

If your opponent is smarter then that he may hide his unit, but in this case you successfully spooked him and denied the possible turn 2 assault he was preparing for you. If you think you may lose the Initiative or are going second, you can then opt to hold the Immolator in reserve and outflank with it, which with some luck on turn 2 will have a similar result on their rear armor. 

Now, those who don't like this tactic will tell you, your Immolator and Dominion are going to just die. But that is the point. The entire theme of the SoB is martyrdom and what better way to do so than in a blaze of glory. If you successively destroy your opponent's armored unit/transport, you just took the wind out of his sails and probably delayed his advance by a turn. Additionally all fire will now be focused on this Dominion unit and not on the rest of your army which is trying to grab an objective. If you are outflanking then your opponent must drive up the middle of the field which gives you ample opportunity to create a killzone with your Excorcists and Retributors, helping reach that zen range of shooting that SoB need at 12 inches while being fairly safe from an unplanned assaulting.

Of course this isn't the only tactic in the world. I hereby disclaim myself as the end all by all of SoB tactics, but I have used this very tactic in tournies and after my opponent said to the judge "He can do that!?" I have brought down plenty of Dreadnoughts and Landraiders before they even got any dirt on their undercarriage.


----------



## Suijin

Yeah the 12" deploy + 12" scout + 6" move + 12" double pen melta range = 42" out of the table width of 48" and the opponent does need to be on the table and you are going after vehicles with this so they are probably in that range. Otherwise, you still have reg pen out to the 54".

You can do some effective blocking with them also, but that can work against you also once they get wrecked.


----------



## Troublehalf

Hey guys, I've found some interesting stuff on my travels, so instead of starting a new topic, I'm posting it here. Check this out. This is a rumoured copy and paste release schedule I've found, if it's been posted before, sorry.... I've just copied and pasted it from the source: http://natfka.blogspot.ca/2012/08/games-workshop-release-plan-in-2013.html



> When you take a look at this, release the notes below mention that these are going to be released starting June 2013. There is a lot here, including Sister's of Battle, some Fortifications, and a lot more.
> 
> 
> Please realize that this is a still a rumour, and that schedules are always likely to change this far out. This is already all over the internet, and it appears it originally came from pastebin and mentions its a deleted Scribd list
> 
> via Johnmclane (who took out the Hobbit info)
> Games Workshop release plan*
> 281041230110209 Imperial Agents Enforcer with Heavy Stubber RE
> 284054630110202 Kroot Kroothawks RE
> 286010311080200 Cult Hybrid Upgrade Pack PL
> 286011130110208 Patriarch Dumas, The Veiled Fiend RE
> *280002330140207 Sisters of Battle Canoness with Power Axe RE
> 280000211440200 Sisters of Battle Seraphim / Patronica Squad PL
> 280000111440201 Sisters of Battle Battle Sisters PL
> 280000411840206 Sisters of Battle Exorcist / Catafalque of Sins PL*
> 
> 281047530110208 Imperial Agents Obsideo Assassin RE
> 281049111440209 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Kill Team PL
> 281049230140202 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Librarian RE
> *280002430140206 Sisters of Battle Prioress Lazarea Verata RE
> 280002230140208 Sisters of Battle Sister Superior Magdalenia RE
> 280000330740205 Sisters of Battle Repentia Squad RE*
> 
> 288023030140207 Harlequin Solitaire RE
> 283041230710209 Cabal Tarellian Cotor with Dragontongue RE
> 283041530110204 Cabal Alpha Psyker RE
> 282021211440203 Mechanicus Battle-Servitors / Khorne Caedes Engines PL
> 287018930140205 Freebooters Ogreen Kaptain RE
> 285000030110204 Cypher RE
> 
> 256145512010301 Tau Empire Nautilus Defence Platform PL
> 256146011840307 Tau Empire Mako PL
> 256145730740301 Commander Farsight RE
> 256146211440307 Tau Empire Vespid Stingwings / Vespid Spinewings PL
> 
> 208263530941100 The Avatar of Khaine RE
> 208284511450206 Eldar Wraithguard / Cataphracts PL
> 208284711550201 Eldar Sky Chariots / Shining Spears PL
> 208285011450208 Eldar Warpspiders / Everguard PL a14
> 208285230150200 Eldar Black Warden RE
> 208297830180402 Phoenix Lord Kyme'doc, The Planetwister RE
> 
> 208281811450202 Eldar Eldritch Raiders PL
> 208282112050207 Eldar Webway Gate PL
> 208283411250206 Eldar Phoenix Lord Nuadhu, The Fireheart / Alean Vyper PL
> 208283512050200 Eldar Spirit Warrior PL
> 208283911550202 Eldar Dragon Riders PL
> 
> 208286130150208 Eldar Fire Dragon Xentarch RE
> 208286230150207 Eldar Dire Avenger Xentarch RE
> 208286330150206 Eldar Howling Banshee Xentarch RE
> 208286430150205 Eldar Striking Scorpion Xentarch RE
> 208286530150204 The Avatar of the Young King RE
> 
> 206304711540308 Chaos Bike Squadron PL
> 206305211440303 Chaos Noise Marines PL
> 206304811440300 Chaos Thousand Sons PL
> 999030530110288 White Dwarf 5 RE
> 
> 200462312010203 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Defence Wall PL
> 200462412010202 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Tower / Pillar of Heroes PL 02 cc
> 200462512340209 Space Marine Astartes Battle Fortress Monastery PL
> 
> 208281612050205 Eldar Lamia Strike Fighter / Moon Siren Bomber PL
> 208283611550205 Eldar Jetbikes PL
> 208287930150207 Eldar Warlock with Force Staff RE
> 208288530950204 Eldar Swooping Hawks RE
> 
> 200470512040203 Space Marine Land Avenger PL
> 200468512010203 Space Marine Praetor Warmachine PL
> 200465411540206 Space Marine Bike Squadron / Crusader Bike Squadron PL
> 200467830740205 Space Marine Skyshatter Cannon RE
> 200469630140209 Space Marine Terminator First Hand RE
> 200469230140203 Space Marine Librarian with Jump Pack RE
> 
> 200462811440204 Space Marine Neophytes PL
> 200464511440201 Space Marine Techmarine with Artificer Squad PL
> 200468011440204 Space Marine Sword Brethren / Nightflame Veteran Squad PL
> 200472230140203 Space Marine Librarian Epistolary RE
> 200475630110203 Paladin Marshall Sieghelm RE
> 
> 200470612040202 Space Marine Land Avenger Vulkan / Land Avenger Invictus PL
> 200470331080275 Space Marine Bionics Upgrade Pack RE
> 200470231080276 Space Marine Defender Upgrade Pack RE
> 200471330110208 Iron Father Maalthun RE
> 200471730110204 Chapter Master Tu’Shan RE
> 200480130110202 Severus Agemman, Regent of Ultramar RE
> 200480630110207 Helveticus the Ancient, Bearer of Honour RE
> 
> 201278911240205 Ork Warbuggy / Deff Racer PL
> 201281911240205 Ork Wartrakk Skorcha / Flakk Trakk PL
> 201279011540202 Ork Deff Koptas PL
> 201286730140200 Wazzdakka Gutsmek RE
> 
> 227162030941106 Dark Eldar Grotesque Squad RE
> 
> 202321411411107 Imperial Guard Storm Troopers / Iron Cloak Veterans PL
> 202342311811101 Imperial Guard Hydra PL
> 
> 271074511840390 Bloodthirster PL
> 271074611840399 Lord of Change PL
> 271074811440399 Chaos Daemons Warp Stalkers / Chaos Furies PL
> 
> 201281712010205 Ork Flying Fortress / Rokk Launcha PL
> 201279412010205 Ork Gun Fortress / Mega Tellyporta PL
> 201283811440204 Ork Flash Gitz / Tellyporta Nobz PL
> 201279911440206 Ork Meganobz / Painboy Cyborks PL
> 201285130140209 Ork Warphead RE
> 
> 201283912010207 Ork Klan Fort PL
> 201284130740204 Ork Boar Squigs RE
> 201284430940212 Ork Squiggotaur RE
> 
> 201283611540203 Ork Big Guns / Pulsa Launchas PL
> 201285230140208 Ork Painboy with Cleava Harness RE
> 201285630140204 Ork Grot Nurses RE
> 201286930140208 Gorbuzz ThreeEye RE
> 201287430140200 Gritlegg Maksmesh RE
> 201288330140208 Boss-Kommissa Grotzki RE
> 
> 200461211440203 Space Marine Scouts with Astartes Grenade Launchers PL
> 200467911540205 Space Marine Gale Claw Supremacy Fighter PL
> 200465011440203 Space Marine Space Marine Tactical Squad PL
> 200465512010202 Space Marine Land Raider Medusa PL
> 
> 271081411840399 Great Unclean One PL
> 271081511840398 Keeper of Secrets PL
> 
> Note: does not contain re-releases, non-miniature products or the miniature range with codes below 2xxx
> Note: contains only boxes that are currently NOT in mass production, expect release beginning in june 2013 at the earliest, the bulk of the releases for the first movie are done by then
> Note: leaked before the announcement of the third movie, unknown if this is accounted for
> Note: not every release has to be based on the movie, Games Workshop has released miniatures before that were omitted by PJ, like Glorfindel, Elladan & Elrohir, and so on


----------



## Loli

Yeah that's been posted before, there is a current thread in the rumours section discussing it.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119863


----------



## Tawa

Troublehalf said:


> 200462811440204 Space Marine Neophytes PL
> 200464511440201 Space Marine Techmarine with Artificer Squad PL
> 200468011440204 Space Marine Sword Brethren / Nightflame Veteran Squad PL
> 200472230140203 Space Marine Librarian Epistolary RE
> 200475630110203 Paladin Marshall Sieghelm RE
> 
> 200470612040202 Space Marine Land Avenger Vulkan / Land Avenger Invictus PL
> 200470331080275 Space Marine Bionics Upgrade Pack RE
> 200470231080276 Space Marine Defender Upgrade Pack RE
> 200471330110208 Iron Father Maalthun RE
> 200471730110204 Chapter Master Tu’Shan RE


Looks like the potential for some Black Templars, Salamanders & Iron Hands love on the horizon.


----------



## Troublehalf

Loli said:


> Yeah that's been posted before, there is a current thread in the rumours section discussing it.
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119863


Damn, sorry man. Didn't think to look at a thread with that title.

Oh well, hopefully some people got something out of it.

Thanks for the links.


----------



## Troublehalf

Got talking to a guy who actually works in the Nottingham GW centre and he basically said this to me about SoB:

"_I can tell you as a GW employee that the rumor that went around the water cooler two years ago was that the Sisters were Squatted due to the higher-ups trying to attract the female audience. They weren't seen as a strong enough female attraction; instead, they decided upon female Imperial Guardsmen.

The pressure is on much of us that deal with the marketing of the goods to attract a separate audience. Our jobs rely on showing that a secondary minority can pick up 40k (and Games Workshop products in general)._"

When I said "Who knows, it doesn't matter, more guys like the SoB. They are the main people. Fuck. They don't into business sense." he replied:

"_The way the ones that make the decisions see it is, it doesn't matter if we market it towards those men-- they'll already buy our products, just another army. The presence of the Sisters is a detractor from women coming into the hobby from what we've analysed, believe it or not, *so they're on indefinite "don't tell the customers, but they're cancelled" hiatus*._"

Shrug. I'll update if I talk to him any more about it.


----------



## Troublehalf

OK, did some more talking.

Me: Why can't they do a limited production run and see how it sells?
Him: "Limited production run" doesn't exist any more. It would cost more than we'd make just to make the moulds, especially if we were going the plastics route.

Me: Nottingham ... is full of anti-terror police armed with MP5's.
Him: This entire country is shit. I moved over here because of a woman, but then I woke up and realized she wasn't worth it.

Me: Still, if they are going with "female IG" - Where are they?
Him: I don't decide _when_ models come out, I just analyse the markets which influence what they decide upon coming out. Believe it or not, every small decision they make down to which army to release next is determined by market statistics.

Me: Why release a BL SoB novel if they are squatted?
Him: Novels are cheap, and the authors get nearly full reign. I don't work with that side of things, though, so it would just be speculation on my behalf.

Me: Then where are all these rumours coming from?
Him: I don't know, but not here.

Him signing off: Again, they aren't officially in "Squatted" status. If so, they'd have pushed a replacement already (female Imperial Guardsmen). From what has passed by my hands, they're just no longer a decision in the models line, but they can exist in other properties.


----------



## Zion

Troublehalf said:


> Got talking to a guy who actually works in the Nottingham GW centre and he basically said this to me about SoB:
> 
> "_I can tell you as a GW employee that the rumor that went around the water cooler two years ago was that the Sisters were Squatted due to the higher-ups trying to attract the female audience. They weren't seen as a strong enough female attraction; instead, they decided upon female Imperial Guardsmen.
> 
> The pressure is on much of us that deal with the marketing of the goods to attract a separate audience. Our jobs rely on showing that a secondary minority can pick up 40k (and Games Workshop products in general)._"
> 
> When I said "Who knows, it doesn't matter, more guys like the SoB. They are the main people. Fuck. They don't into business sense." he replied:
> 
> "_The way the ones that make the decisions see it is, it doesn't matter if we market it towards those men-- they'll already buy our products, just another army. The presence of the Sisters is a detractor from women coming into the hobby from what we've analysed, believe it or not, *so they're on indefinite "don't tell the customers, but they're cancelled" hiatus*._"
> 
> Shrug. I'll update if I talk to him any more about it.


Interesting rumour, save for the lack of female Guardsmen models that have come out in the last decade or so.

And I'm surprised conservatively dressed females in armour would be seen as a detractor. Sisters are probably one of the most maturely handled forces of females I've seen to date in wargaming. They dress sensibly, they fight just as well as their male counterparts (Storm Troopers being the closest thing), and don't have any of the dumb baggage that usually gets slapped on a female character (needing to be saved by men all the time, having a body type that'd make a porn star jealous, ect).

I'm interested to hear more, but I'd love to see this actual market research. Because honestly you can get market research to say anything you need to get the go-ahead to do what you want.

EDIT:


Troublehalf said:


> OK, did some more talking.
> 
> Me: Why can't they do a limited production run and see how it sells?
> Him: "Limited production run" doesn't exist any more. It would cost more than we'd make just to make the moulds, especially if we were going the plastics route.
> 
> Me: Nottingham ... is full of anti-terror police armed with MP5's.
> Him: This entire country is shit. I moved over here because of a woman, but then I woke up and realized she wasn't worth it.
> 
> Me: Still, if they are going with "female IG" - Where are they?
> Him: I don't decide when models come out, I just analyse the markets which influence what they decide upon coming out. Believe it or not, every small decision they make down to which army to release next is determined by market statistics.
> 
> Me: Why release a BL SoB novel if they are squatted?
> Him: Novels are cheap, and the authors get nearly full reign. I don't work with that side of things, though, so it would just be speculation on my behalf.
> 
> Me: Then where are all these rumours coming from?
> Him: I don't know, but not here.
> 
> Him signing off: Again, they aren't officially in "Squatted" status. If so, they'd have pushed a replacement already (female Imperial Guardsmen). From what has passed by my hands, they're just no longer a decision in the models line, but they can exist in other properties.


Interesting. With how easy it is to pass off fake info I'd hate to agree with this and go "Yup, Sisters are dead" though. I'd love for some collaboration on this from other sources so we can iron this out more as a real thing or not.


----------



## Suijin

Yeah seems to contradict them saying at GD 2011? that no other army is going to be squatted and they will all be updated at some point (even specifically when asked about SoB).

Also the models art rumor thing that is supposed to start here in June or something had SoB models on it, but we don't really have any confirmation about whether that was in any was true ot not yet (it is not July/August yet to see if anything is coming out from the list).

SIlverTabby said he/she talked to someone at GW and the SoB were going to be getting something soon.

So at worst we have 1 person saying they get nothing and another saying they are getting stuff, so a 50/50 chance. I for one would be quite unhappy if they don't get anything. They will lose customers and irritate those they have by effectively "squatting" them, so they aren't just going to have those customers buying other armies. GW will also look bad to many people for doing that even if those people don't play that army.

Negativity hits much harder than positive aspects, so something like that would breed lifetime negativity from many people towards them. Many SoB players have already sold off their models due to the GW treatment of SoB to date.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> Yeah seems to contradict them saying at GD 2011? that no other army is going to be squatted and they will all be updated at some point (even specifically when asked about SoB).


I'd kind of forgotten about that. Good point.



Suijin said:


> Also the models art rumor thing that is supposed to start here in June or something had SoB models on it, but we don't really have any confirmation about whether that was in any was true ot not yet (it is not July/August yet to see if anything is coming out from the list).


True, that's a fair point as well.



Suijin said:


> SIlverTabby said he/she talked to someone at GW and the SoB were going to be getting something soon.


I'm not 100%, but I think that might have been Kelly.



Suijin said:


> So at worst we have 1 person saying they get nothing and another saying they are getting stuff, so a 50/50 chance. I for one would be quite unhappy if they don't get anything. They will lose customers and irritate those they have by effectively "squatting" them, so they aren't just going to have those customers buying other armies. GW will also look bad to many people for doing that even if those people don't play that army.


Actually why I'm looking for more confirmation on this either way. I tend to "weight" the likelihood of a rumour being true on a number of things (how good the person's track record is, and how many collaborating sources that say similiar, but not 100% identical things (basically to help cut out parroting biasing my personal scale)). And as it stands we've got water cooler talk (making it a rumour before it even got passed on and possibly even twisted from "We're considering cutting Sisters" or something like that) and Magpie saying that his local manager just came back from one of those big conferences saying the same (again, could be scuttlebutt, how do we really know?).

So right now we've got two small "drops" and one big "update coming".

So who knows? Either way I'm past getting upset about this, I just want to see something happen so I know where GW stands regarding the Sisters.



Suijin said:


> Negativity hits much harder than positive aspects, so something like that would breed lifetime negativity from many people towards them. Many SoB players have already sold off their models due to the GW treatment of SoB to date.


Dropping another full army (unless it was replaced with something WAY cooler, but they'd need to bring in a new army, personally I'd say something non-Imperium to do that) won't help GW. It creates a sense of fear in players and pushes them more towards believing that their army could be next. Black Templar already fear it, what's to say if Sisters get canned that they couldn't be next?

This kind of thing becomes contagious and will hurt the game more than it helps it.


----------



## Kettu

I really want to see these 'statistics' because frankly there is only three IG females on sale and have ever been on sale fore any length of time and GW *HAS NEVER TRIED TO SELL* the Sisters.
The notion that a non-existent faction has precedence over a faction that was never attempted to sell in any real capacity because of _'market statistics'_ is laughable at best.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> I really want to see these 'statistics' because frankly there is only three IG females on sale and have ever been on sale fore any length of time and GW *HAS NEVER TRIED TO SELL* the Sisters.
> The notion that a non-existent faction has precedence over a faction that was never attempted to sell in any real capacity because of _'market statistics'_ is laughable at best.


Well that and statistics can be made to say anything. You just ask a lot of vague, leading questions and claim they support whatever part of the question you want to back up your data.


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> Interesting rumour, save for the lack of female Guardsmen models that have come out in the last decade or so.
> 
> And I'm surprised conservatively dressed females in armour would be seen as a detractor. Sisters are probably one of the most maturely handled forces of females I've seen to date in wargaming. They dress sensibly, they fight just as well as their male counterparts (Storm Troopers being the closest thing), and don't have any of the dumb baggage that usually gets slapped on a female character (needing to be saved by men all the time, having a body type that'd make a porn star jealous, ect).
> 
> I'm interested to hear more, but I'd love to see this actual market research. Because honestly you can get market research to say anything you need to get the go-ahead to do what you want.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> 
> Interesting. With how easy it is to pass off fake info I'd hate to agree with this and go "Yup, Sisters are dead" though. I'd love for some collaboration on this from other sources so we can iron this out more as a real thing or not.


I just want to say that this is what I have been saying all along and after a bajillion pages of being told I was wrong, these rumours support it. So I'll say it again and hopefully won't get 100 angry replies. 

I propose that GW has virtually squatted the SoB. They don't need to actually cancel them in order to squat them, they just won't come out with anything new and have essentially said "tough luck" to those who play the army. 

Personally I view this as GW's giving up the on the army because they don't care about it and find this offensive and insulting.



Kettu said:


> I really want to see these 'statistics' because frankly there is only three IG females on sale and have ever been on sale fore any length of time and GW *HAS NEVER TRIED TO SELL* the Sisters.
> The notion that a non-existent faction has precedence over a faction that was never attempted to sell in any real capacity because of _'market statistics'_ is laughable at best.


I agree and this is why I find it insulting. GW has never tried very hard to include SoB in any of their major releases and expansions. Time after time the army is IGNORED and left on the weigh-side, still GW insists that the army doesn't sell. 

It's like having a dish available at a restaurant but not putting it on the menu, then complaining that no one orders it when in fact no one orders the dish because no one knows it is available.

GW is the only one to blame for the failure of sales in the GW line. No one (save for us few die hard fans) wants to buy an army which is defunct, ignored, not included and has models for sale from 1997 as it's primary troop.



Zion said:


> So who knows? Either way I'm past getting upset about this, I just want to see something happen so I know where GW stands regarding the Sisters.


They probably won't. They are just going to keep it on the back burner indefinitely as it has been. At best we might see a 7th ed update to the WD rules to make them functional but other than that it honestly seems like they will just ignore the problem, sweep it under the rug and just wait it out until eternity.


----------



## Tawa

Troublehalf said:


> _I can tell you as a GW employee that the rumor that went around the water cooler two years ago was that the Sisters were Squatted due to the higher-ups trying to attract the female audience. They weren't seen as a strong enough female attraction; instead, they decided upon female Imperial Guardsmen._


_

Along with Sisters, I would buy a metric fuckton of these if they were done properly _


----------



## Troublehalf

I was typing some stuff out but the browser crashed. Basically, the guy was a marketing dude, SoB were not selling to females, they want females to play 40k, therefore they need a female orientated army, so do female IG.

It sucks, but as far as it goes, they are squatted in terms of an army, not like the Squats which were removed completely. That means their fluff will remain, models remain and the current rules will remain, they'll just not get any other updates, it sucks, but who knows. I find it annoying if it is true... But without finding other people who "apparently" work for GW in Nottingham centre... Can't confirm or dismiss. It's just something else I found and threw it into the pot, if the guy is lying, he does it well, if not, then I fear for it.

I fear the only update SoB will see is FineCast models. Which I suppose is better than nothing, but an entire new mould (therefore models) set will be too expensive if the information is true.


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> I just want to say that this is what I have been saying all along and after a bajillion pages of being told I was wrong, these rumours support it. So I'll say it again and hopefully won't get 100 angry replies.


Don't just on the "I Told You So" wagon just yet. We don't have more than your gut feeling, some watercooler talk and a Manager (and when did Managers become trust-worthy rumour sources?) propping this one up. Could you be right? Sure. Or wrong. I want to see where this develops further before we go further on who is right or wrong personally.



Arcane said:


> I propose that GW has virtually squatted the SoB. They don't need to actually cancel them in order to squat them, they just won't come out with anything new and have essentially said "tough luck" to those who play the army.


It's not impossible for the Sisters to get quietly discontinued, but if that's the case we'll know sooner or later because the beans will eventually spill.



Arcane said:


> Personally I view this as GW's giving up the on the army because they don't care about it and find this offensive and insulting.


You find GW giving up on it as offensive and insulting or you think GW find the army offensive and insulting? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just getting some confusion on who the subject is for the last half of the sentence.



Arcane said:


> I agree and this is why I find it insulting. GW has never tried very hard to include SoB in any of their major releases and expansions. Time after time the army is IGNORED and left on the weigh-side, still GW insists that the army doesn't sell.


You're right, it was. Andy was our supporter, and when GW lost him we lost the driving force behind the army. It's not impossible that we'll lose the Sisters because of it.



Arcane said:


> It's like having a dish available at a restaurant but not putting it on the menu, then complaining that no one orders it when in fact no one orders the dish because no one knows it is available.


Yeah, I can agree with this analogy.



Arcane said:


> GW is the only one to blame for the failure of sales in the GW line. No one (save for us few die hard fans) wants to buy an army which is defunct, ignored, not included and has models for sale from 1997 as it's primary troop.


I'd say you're mostly right. I'm not going to rehash old ground here, but when I see topics where people want to get into the army and we tell them not to, and to just wait for an update, that it doesn't help any.



Arcane said:


> They probably won't. They are just going to keep it on the back burner indefinitely as it has been. At best we might see a 7th ed update to the WD rules to make them functional but other than that it honestly seems like they will just ignore the problem, sweep it under the rug and just wait it out until eternity.


If GW does drop the Sisters, it'll probably be this way I think. Push them under a rug and then eventually just stop selling them when they think we won't notice.


----------



## Arcane

Zion said:


> Don't just on the "I Told You So" wagon just yet. We don't have more than your gut feeling, some watercooler talk and a Manager (and when did Managers become trust-worthy rumour sources?) propping this one up. Could you be right? Sure. Or wrong. I want to see where this develops further before we go further on who is right or wrong personally.
> 
> I told you so.
> 
> It's not impossible for the Sisters to get quietly discontinued, but if that's the case we'll know sooner or later because the beans will eventually spill.
> 
> Sure it is, where have you been for the last 10 years? That WD update was just the last putter in an already empty tank.
> 
> You find GW giving up on it as offensive and insulting or you think GW find the army offensive and insulting? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just getting some confusion on who the subject is for the last half of the sentence.
> 
> I find it insulting to every player like yourself and I that has spent countless hours and dollars collecting and playing them. The least they can do is have the decency to admit and inform us of their either discontinuation or continued progress. This whole, in the dark thing is just insulting.
> 
> You're right, it was. Andy was our supporter, and when GW lost him we lost the driving force behind the army. It's not impossible that we'll lose the Sisters because of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can agree with this analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say you're mostly right. I'm not going to rehash old ground here, but when I see topics where people want to get into the army and we tell them not to, and to just wait for an update, that it doesn't help any.
> 
> 
> 
> If GW does drop the Sisters, it'll probably be this way I think. Push them under a rug and then eventually just stop selling them when they think we won't notice.


Ok look, I know I am being a real twat here and downer... I'm just frustrated by it. I don't want to be! If GW came out with a new sisters line I would probably literally be looking into a personal loan to buy as much as I could. AND I'm not trying to be sour grapes and be like "screw you!" GW... I still buy their stuff and play their game (working on an Inquisitorial army right now) and love their game... but this shit with the SoB frankly is offensive. It stinks of players/publishers who view female models/fluff and anything "gay" as better left out all together. I mean ffs, are we ever going to get an Inquisitor Valaria model? They had no problem with making new models for every last one of the damn Necrons... x_x

/endrant.


----------



## mahavira

Arcane said:


> Ok look, I know I am being a real twat here and downer... I'm just frustrated by it. I don't want to be! If GW came out with a new sisters line I would probably literally be looking into a personal loan to buy as much as I could. AND I'm not trying to be sour grapes and be like "screw you!" GW... I still buy their stuff and play their game (working on an Inquisitorial army right now) and love their game... but this shit with the SoB frankly is offensive. It stinks of players/publishers who view female models/fluff and anything "gay" as better left out all together. I mean ffs, are we ever going to get an Inquisitor Valaria model? They had no problem with making new models for every last one of the damn Necrons... x_x
> 
> /endrant.


Well, given that we -do- have a new Lelith Hesperax, Lhamaeans, nearly half of the new dark eldar warriors and wyches, and Valkia the Bloody, I can't think the "female models/fluff is no good" crowd have much say, if any (and I'll make a wild guess that Howling Banshees aren't about to undergo a sex change). That said I want a Valeria model too...


----------



## Kettu

mahavira said:


> Well, given that we -do- ... Valkia the Bloody ...


 Valkia finally got her bloody miniature? When? I haven't seen anything.


> That said I want a Valeria model too...


Same, unlikely to happen though. GW said a while back that they intentionally don't make some special characters so people can scratch-build their own.
Why it just so happens to be the characters that are the MOST removed from the range (Like Valkia and Valeria) is what bugs me.

---

On another note.
Say for a moment that these rumours are true and an all female IG army is coming our way. What do people expect?
It'd have to be different enough from Cadians and Catachans if they actually expect sales to be on par with those two.

But they only female IG we have seen is a small picture of bikini-clad amazons (Botom Left; Xenonia) and 'technically' House Escher of Necromunda.

Neither of which are really 'lady gamer friendly'.

So what would they be?
I wouldn't be opposed to a (Norse) Valkyrie themed army (Image wise), It honestly surprises me that for such a well known and established mythological faction of Goddesses the only time they appear is as a single character who doesn't have a miniature and who's artwork doesn't even carry any of the generally accepted Valkyrie 'styles'.


----------



## Arcane

mahavira said:


> Well, given that we -do- have a new Lelith Hesperax, Lhamaeans, nearly half of the new dark eldar warriors and wyches, and Valkia the Bloody, I can't think the "female models/fluff is no good" crowd have much say, if any (and I'll make a wild guess that Howling Banshees aren't about to undergo a sex change). That said I want a Valeria model too...


Ask yourself, when was the last time GW produced a female human model? It's been a decade. 

The dark eldar models were a god send, it's almost hard to believe they ever made it out of the GW design studio. But GW seem to have some kind of stick up their ass about female humans, like feminine models are ok as long as they are alien and more fantasy oriented.

I would love some female IG to mix with my current Pig Iron/Cadian force. But it shouldn't come at the cost of our current army.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kettu said:


> Valkia finally got her bloody miniature? When? I haven't seen anything.


Ages ago, well before Xmas last year

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1710156a


----------



## mahavira

Arcane said:


> Ask yourself, when was the last time GW produced a female human model? It's been a decade.
> 
> The dark eldar models were a god send, it's almost hard to believe they ever made it out of the GW design studio. But GW seem to have some kind of stick up their ass about female humans, like feminine models are ok as long as they are alien and more fantasy oriented.
> 
> I would love some female IG to mix with my current Pig Iron/Cadian force. But it shouldn't come at the cost of our current army.


I'm pretty sure Eowyn is newer than 10 years old. If you want to restrict to Warhammer or 40k (which is fair enough as those are the real lines), given what armies they've been updating I'm not sure where a female human other than Valeria (I'm prepared to call Valkia a daemon for the sake of argument) would fit unless they were making major changes. They finecast the Callidus Assassin (one of them anyway) and the Death Cult Assassins. I suppose they could have finecast the old metal female inquisitor, but I actually don't like that model much (ok models, given the different equipped versions) so I'm not going to ask for it. Human armies in Warhammer: Empire, where a female mini wouldn't really fit other than a newly minted special character or a mage option (and forge world, owned by GW, did make Elspeth Von Draken on a Carmine Dragon), and Brettonia which has been languishing for quite a long time itself (and only really had female mages, though they could reasonably make a Joan of Arc analog special character if they wanted). There are female vampires, daemonette related things and female elves within the last 10 years but you said humans and fair enough.

40k - there are no female space marines and never have been in the mythos. If GW decided to invent a female space marine chapter/legion, I suspect the response from the community would not be "yay more female models" but rather contempt for the obvious pandering (if you think I'm wrong do tell, but I've read posts on Heresy sneering that someday GW is going to do just that and I've never seen anyone say "well I think it would be a good idea"). That leaves IG where they would be restricted to either special characters/commissar options or taking the huge risk of plastic kits (those molds are outrageously expensive) on which they might never make their money back. 

You want female imperial guard? I'd probably buy some myself if they were released (perhaps Valhallans, as a tie in to the early Ciaphas Caine novels?), but I am neither surprised nor offended that they are not currently available, and I don't believe that sexism is particularly related to the lack of SoB updates - discomfort with their overt religiosity (yes Space Marines worship the emperor too, but the first thing that comes to mind with them is genetically enhanced super soldiers in power armor, not religious fanatics), disinterest (not everyone likes every army, and as has been mentioned the one person known to like SoB doesn't work there anymore), getting triaged repeatedly behind more obviously profitable things and technical difficulty (Jess Goodwin has commented on the problems he was having in making them posable due to the sleeves) all seem like more probable reasons than an "ooh ick girls" attitude.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Arcane said:


> Ask yourself, when was the last time GW produced a female human model? It's been a decade.


Valkia the Bloody 3rd of November 2012 :grin:


----------



## Arcane

You don't sell a fine wine by keeping it hidden in your back cellar shelf. GW have only themselves to blame for the lack of sales in the SoB line by their failure to include them in the vast majority of publications, advertisements, and marketing schemes. How often are they featured on their website? Rarely if ever. Crusade of Fire? Not a mention. The 5th edition rulebook? Nothing. Yes, I was surprised by the WD articles and the 6th edition 2 page spread, but that cannot make up for 10 years of negligence. 

Reasons? Let's not play chicken and egg here. Who even plays the army in the offices of GW? How often are they included in their battle reports and big hype events? Why have they never even bothered to sell the models used for their Ecclesiarchal convents? The reason comes down to 1 thing. GW is a company that markets to prepubescent boys who say "ewww" when it comes to anything female, a sentiment which seems to be mirrored by many of it's older customers and employees (see P.15, second paragraph of Codex Grey Knights). Meanwhile, companies like Privateer Press steal their business by taking a more liberal, modern approach to gaming and diversity in representation. 

The final damning issue on GW's part, no codex availability. How can you expect someone to want to invest in an army you don't even officially support?



Magpie_Oz said:


> Valkia the Bloody 3rd of November 2012 :grin:


Odd, I've never met a human before with horns and wings, or maybe I am missing something. I wouldn't be surprised if you put Valkia on a doctor's examining table they would strongly argue against her "human" condition.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Arcane said:


> The reason comes down to 1 thing. GW is a company that markets to prepubescent boys who say "ewww" when it comes to anything female, a sentiment which seems to be mirrored by many of it's older customers and employees (see P.15, second paragraph of Codex Grey Knights). Meanwhile, companies like Privateer Press steal their business by taking a more liberal, modern approach to gaming and diversity in representation.


The prepubescent boys seems about right really. Though 90% of those that I see all have Space Marines it seems so in a way I don't see much reason human female models couldn't exist outside that specific army in decent numbers. Imperial Guard should have at least as many as Eldar by today's standards. 



Arcane said:


> The final damning issue on GW's part, no codex availability. How can you expect someone to want to invest in an army you don't even officially support?


Indeed no one is about to empty out GW's stock of old metals sitting around without even so much as a book. On the other hand I don't see a book based on what they currently have as being on a level playing field as the newer ones show casing lots of plastic. They would need to invest in a new line for them. Not that that hasn't worked for any other armies before or anything.


----------



## Kettu

Magpie_Oz said:


> Ages ago, well before Xmas last year
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1710156a


... Ok...
:shok:

That is honestly the first I have seen or heard of it.
It's not on shelf at my local GW, that's for sure.

And, all things considered, it looks rather plain.

(And that one mini took how many years?)


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kettu said:


> And, all things considered, it looks rather plain.


Determined to be negative aren't you?

I have the mini and I reckon it is bloody awesome.


----------



## Necrosis

Magpie_Oz said:


> Determined to be negative aren't you?
> 
> I have the mini and I reckon it is bloody awesome.


I assume that is cause you did a much better paint job then GW. I really think the paint job makes the model look plain.


----------



## Kettu

Magpie_Oz said:


> Determined to be negative aren't you?
> 
> I have the mini and I reckon it is bloody awesome.


Simply going by the pictures alone. 
GW has done minis with ratty capes billowing around, tendrils of smoke off fires, the neck hole on the Chaos Dread (Or whatever it's called these days) in the 6th ed box.
She looks like a Horned Daemonette head on a slightly slender Chaos Warrior body with a pair of wings and an awkward shield slapped on. Up close, in hand it may be a different story but from what I see now, it just looks plain.

Besides, it takes a bloody lot to impress me these days.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Necrosis said:


> I assume that is cause you did a much better paint job then GW. I really think the paint job makes the model look plain.


No mine's almost identical to the GW one.

The paint job is irrelevant to how good/bad the mini is isn't it, given that they don't come pre-painted


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kettu said:


> Simply going by the pictures alone.
> GW has done minis with ratty capes billowing around, tendrils of smoke off fires, the neck hole on the Chaos Dread (Or whatever it's called these days) in the 6th ed box.
> She looks like a Horned Daemonette head on a slightly slender Chaos Warrior body with a pair of wings and an awkward shield slapped on. Up close, in hand it may be a different story but from what I see now, it just looks plain.
> 
> Besides, it takes a bloody lot to impress me these days.


Not sure what you're looking at but Valkia looks nothing like a Daemonette, there are no Chaos Warriors that have an hourglass figure that I am aware of and the shield it very much in context and fits great.


----------



## Kettu

Strange, it's almost like different people have different opinions...
But that can't be right, people can't show individuality, it's against the law or something.

:laugh:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kettu said:


> Strange, it's almost like different people have different opinions...
> But that can't be right, people can't show individuality, it's against the law or something.
> 
> :laugh:


Well if I'm not your not, that is just being fair.


----------



## DeSteele

If female IG sell well, will that be because of the models or because of the Codex?

After all there are few people who will argue that the IG codex has not got a fair amount of power and choice.

Sisters would sell a better if our WD codex was improved with the meh units made useful and that would even be with the metal models. With the size of our Codex that could be done with a faq. Do need to publish the codex though.
DE and GK were not that popular before they got an improved Codex.

Don’t need female IG from GW anyway. I have built an army using Copplestone FW11 Female Troopers and ShadowForge figures plus a few others. figures.


----------



## Zion

Going to quote myself here from another thread because some interesting things came out of it that I think relate to Sisters:



Zion said:


> Typically White Dwarf Codex releases are for armies which need an update but are still at least 2 years off.





Zion said:


> Games-Workshop was adamant that they were avoiding "going the way of the Squats" with any of their current armies for 40k.


Both of these came up in reference to the Black Templars,but I think they hold some key bits on information for us too.


----------



## Tawa

Kettu said:


> So what would they be?


Personally, I'd hope more for some heads etc for the Cadian figs. As we've flogged elsewhere, try telling the difference between genders when they're covered in DPM, wearing body armour, webbing and kit, quite possibly (sun)glasses too and you're about sixty feet away.....

Failing that, I've always said 'Rocket Girl' is what I'd be happy with.




















Oh, and GW did female Tanith......


On main topic:



Zion said:


> Both of these came up in reference to the Black Templars, but I think they hold some key bits on information for us too.


As much as I'd like to doubt, the BT point is a very good one Z. I seem to recall Templars were going to be rolled up at one point, and then weren't.


----------



## Zion

Tawa said:


> As much as I'd like to doubt, the BT point is a very good one Z. I seem to recall Templars were going to be rolled up at one point, and then weren't.


Well I meant that these statements (WD Codexes for armies 2+ years away from being ready and No Army Left Behind) came up regarding Templars but they give us some insight on what to expect for ourselves as well. We're nearing the 2+ year mark this summer, so that means that if we get an update we'll be in that window about then, and if no army will truly be left squatted/unsupported like Sisters are rumoured to be than we may be safe.

Either way I hadn't seen the originating rumour come up before (it's a different thread), but I thought the points might serve well repeated here.


----------



## Tawa

Zion said:


> Well I meant that these statements (WD Codexes for armies 2+ years away from being ready and No Army Left Behind) came up regarding Templars but they give us some insight on what to expect for ourselves as well. We're nearing the 2+ year mark this summer, so that means that if we get an update we'll be in that window about then, and if no army will truly be left squatted/unsupported like Sisters are rumoured to be than we may be safe.


*fingers crossed!*


----------



## DeSteele

> From Black Templar thread
> Q) Who will be writing the book?
> A) Phil Kelly.
> 
> Q) Who is writing the other upcoming books?
> A) Robin is doing Tau Empire, Phil is doing Eldar, Matt is doing Orks, and then Phil is back on duty doing Black Templars. Can't remember who is doing Tyranids, it's either Phil or Matt. I think it's Matt but I'm not 100% on that one.


This is also interesting from the Black Templar thread Zion posted from Warseer.

Who does this leave for Sisters author? Presuming there is even a Sisters codex underway, which there should be if the rest of the post is correct.

Only need to wait to see who is author of the Tau codex to judge this rumour.


----------



## Zion

DeSteele said:


> This is also interesting from the Black Templar thread Zion posted from Warseer.
> 
> Who does this leave for Sisters author? Presuming there is even a Sisters codex underway, which there should be if the rest of the post is correct.
> 
> Only need to wait to see who is author of the Tau codex to judge this rumour.


Typically they work on more than one codex at a time, so even though Phil has double duty in the near future he could be working on Sisters on the side.

Alternatively we have two new 40K authors (Adam Troke and Jeremy Vetock) who aren't listed on any projects (granted, Troke tends to only help with the books (outside of the Hobbit stuff so far) and doesn't seem to write any of his own, but it's not impossible for him to head a book on his own in the future) and are candidates to handle the book as well.

Assuming it exists of course.


----------



## Mokuren

DeSteele said:


> Don’t need female IG from GW anyway. I have built an army using Copplestone FW11 Female Troopers and ShadowForge figures plus a few others. figures.


It's what I'm doing as well, even though my female models actually come from Infinity, Reaper miniatures and whatever other miniature from some obscure game I never heard. I got a group of seven from something called Urban Wars: Metropolis and while they're not great model-wise they at least look more female than anything GW.

Not that it takes much, I still insist my sisters are transvestites, they have jaws that would put Silvester Stallone to shame.

I didn't know about Copplestone's Future Wars line, though. I'll have a look at their range since I'm about to run out of models to paint. I'm also surprised to see that ShadowForge produced some models that don't look like sex toys, I'll have to browse their range a bit better.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

DeSteele said:


> Don’t need female IG from GW anyway. I have built an army using Copplestone FW11 Female Troopers and ShadowForge figures plus a few others. figures.


Thw FW 11 figures are ok but Shadowforge represents all that is bad about female themed heroic scale miniatures.


----------



## DeSteele

Oh, I don’t know, the Marines are good from ShadowForge. The Politburo Workers look ok. Can’t say the Politburo Youth or Marine Scouts appeal.
Politburo Elite maybe ok?

Also I have figures from Void (became Urban War), the odd figure from EM4 and GW.


----------



## Arcane

I'm sincerely frightened by the prospect of a Matt Ward written Orc codex... The army is already a beast which is difficult to stop on the battlefield and it's taken me years to learn how to stop it. If it's anything like Necrons it'll taken me even longer next time around. 

A Forgeworld SoB army book could be cool like DKoK to IG, but I'm afraid with Horus Heresy all we will see from FW in the near future is Marine releases repeated and repeated...

Sadly I'de bet my left kidney they won't bother doing Sister of Silence.


----------



## mahavira

For female IG WWII soviet uniforms would be a good starting point, as they actually used women in combat roles at the time (one of their best snipers was a woman, as one example). As to sisters of silence, given that GW is not capable of keeping up with the armies it already has, I'd like to beg them not to start new ones however interesting they might be.


----------



## Arcane

mahavira said:


> For female IG WWII soviet uniforms would be a good starting point, as they actually used women in combat roles at the time (one of their best snipers was a woman, as one example). As to sisters of silence, given that GW is not capable of keeping up with the armies it already has, I'd like to beg them not to start new ones however interesting they might be.


That would be Forgeworld, who has already started plenty of secondary armies. They don't really need an entire army anyhow, just a small allied force.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> For female IG WWII soviet uniforms would be a good starting point, as they actually used women in combat roles at the time (one of their best snipers was a woman, as one example). As to sisters of silence, given that GW is not capable of keeping up with the armies it already has, I'd like to beg them not to start new ones however interesting they might be.


For sisters of silence I wouldn't mind if they were included in the sister of battle codex as long as they stated how the two organizations were seperate but do work together (Sort of like the Witch Hunter Codex but replace the Inquisition with sisters of silence).


----------



## Tawa

mahavira said:


> For female IG WWII soviet uniforms would be a good starting point, as they actually used women in combat roles at the time (one of their best snipers was a woman, as one example).


For anybody that's interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

A re-release and update of the Valhallans would cover that nicely 

Sorry for the off-main-topic comment guys :blush:


----------



## Arcane

Necrosis said:


> For sisters of silence I wouldn't mind if they were included in the sister of battle codex as long as they stated how the two organizations were seperate but do work together (Sort of like the Witch Hunter Codex but replace the Inquisition with sisters of silence).


hmm not sure where you heard this. Sisters of Silence were a Heresy Era group of pariah/soulless women who were trained to battle psychers. SoB didn't come around until thousands of years later during the Age of Apostacy. It's doubtful the two ever existed at the same time... Would be cool if so!


----------



## Necrosis

Arcane said:


> hmm not sure where you heard this. Sisters of Silence were a Heresy Era group of pariah/soulless women who were trained to battle psychers. SoB didn't come around until thousands of years later during the Age of Apostacy. It's doubtful the two ever existed at the same time... Would be cool if so!


Fluff changes all the time, we don't know what happened to the sisters of silence after the Horus Heresy.


----------



## Suijin

GW is putting out more product it seems like and updating Faqs and adding stuff through WD, so I would have to give them a good job on that along with starting to go digital (even if it is very limited at this point).

We can bitch about the order they choose to do codex, but until they really totally skip SoB and start redoing currently updated codices then we don't "really" know that they gave up on them.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> GW is putting out more product it seems like and updating Faqs and adding stuff through WD, so I would have to give them a good job on that along with starting to go digital (even if it is very limited at this point).
> 
> We can bitch about the order they choose to do codex, but until they really totally skip SoB and start redoing currently updated codices then we don't "really" know that they gave up on them.


Good point there.


----------



## Kettu

Necrosis said:


> Fluff changes all the time, we don't know what happened to the sisters of silence after the Horus Heresy.


There has been several allusions to them still existing. They are the Chamber Militant of the Adeptus Telepathica and also form(ed) the main-stray of the guards aboard the Telepathica's fleets; The Black Ships.

The Telepathica itself isn't a very outwardly active department so it makes perfect sense for the SoS to just not get mentioned. 
Ordo Hereticus's Chamber Militant was an Unnamed Marine Chapter pre-April 2004. 
Who here knows the name or that there was even a Chamber Militant of the Navigator Houses? (Specific branch of Arbites, I forgot their name) 
Do people know who is the Crimson Cardinals or who runs them? (They were a specific group within the Inquisition who run and maintain the Crusader, they are now under the Ecclesiarchy for some reason, openly defying the Decree Passive (Unless it's gone all female now also)
Is everyone even aware that every Adeptus/Adepta/Adepto department has a standing Chamber Militant, at least since the Age of Apostasy? (Mostly specific branches within the Imperial Guard or Arbites)


----------



## Arcane

Suijin said:


> We can bitch about the order they choose to do codex, but until they really totally skip SoB and start redoing currently updated codices then we don't "really" know that they gave up on them.


Like the impending Chaos Daemon codex?



Kettu said:


> There has been several allusions to them still existing. They are the Chamber Militant of the Adeptus Telepathica and also form(ed) the main-stray of the guards aboard the Telepathica's fleets; The Black Ships.
> 
> The Telepathica itself isn't a very outwardly active department so it makes perfect sense for the SoS to just not get mentioned.
> Ordo Hereticus's Chamber Militant was an Unnamed Marine Chapter pre-April 2004.
> Who here knows the name or that there was even a Chamber Militant of the Navigator Houses? (Specific branch of Arbites, I forgot their name)
> Do people know who is the Crimson Cardinals or who runs them? (They were a specific group within the Inquisition who run and maintain the Crusader, they are now under the Ecclesiarchy for some reason, openly defying the Decree Passive (Unless it's gone all female now also)
> Is everyone even aware that every Adeptus/Adepta/Adepto department has a standing Chamber Militant, at least since the Age of Apostasy? (Mostly specific branches within the Imperial Guard or Arbites)


I would totally love for Sisters of Silence to somehow be rolled into the Sisters of Battle codex. It seems like they would have fit better though into the Grey Knight codex since that had the Inquisition units... 

It seems strange that the point of a "sisters of battle" codex was to do away with everything else and make them a pure force unto themselves. So you would think that the "Grey Knight" codex would do the same, since they are no longer "Daemonhunters", but instead they bloat the book with Inquisition units. Not that I am complaining, it's a very fun book and entertaining to play. It just seems like logic wasn't followed through on both books, Daemonhunters and Witchhunters. So it would be really cool to see the SoB have some smaller factions which they can have in their force like Sisters of Silence or who knows, maybe even some more Ecclesiarchal units.


----------



## Kettu

There is a fault in that logic in which one, the Grey Knights are a part of the Inquisition that goes back all the way to when they were first introduced, not like the SoB who got ham-fisted in because GW wanted to skimp out of work early.
And two, the Sisters of Battle force is what, a third Ecclesiarchy at this point? it's the same thing that happened to the GKs.

I personally DO want to see the SoS, but along side Assassins as something to be allied into any Imperial army but I don't want to see them folded into the SoB just to gap-fill OR was window-dressing. They are two conflicting organisations with vague overlap in their use. (Shoot Psychic Things!)


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Like the impending Chaos Daemon codex?


I believe the point was more towards 6th Edition and later books, not 5th Edition and earlier.


----------



## Suijin

Zion said:


> I believe the point was more towards 6th Edition and later books, not 5th Edition and earlier.


Well I would consider Dark Eldar, GK, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels all updated currently.

Vanilla SM have been updated somewhat with a flyer and digital codex.

Chaos Daemons are somewhat weird where they have had a WD update, mostly for Tzneech and Slaanesh (sp?), and rumored to get the other 2 factions some different units. So if they get some kind of codex, as some rumors go, then they would be considered updated also.

Orks got a WD update (flyers), but are also one of the oldest codex. They are rumored to get an update on the horizon.

Black Templars needed a lot of work, as another old codex, so it isn't lke they have gotten a lotta love either.

Eldar and Tau are both considered outdated, even if they aren't considered totally uncompetitive by some people.

SoB need a total overhaul (as regards to models), and GW is a model company. This means more work and harder to just squeeze it in there somewhere. Am I bummed that SoB don't seem like they are going to get really anything in the near future? Yeah of course, but we don't know every decision within the company. It is not hard to envision them knowing more what to do with all those other armies, like more current models (Eldar Rangers, current plastics/finecast, etc.) or mirrored codex (Eldar and Dark Eldar), and those taking much less time to churn out a bunch of new codex rather than another uninspired bland SoB just to give us something else. They can probably do about 2-3 codex in the same time it would to do a proper SoB one. They need some time to prepare the models and new rules to fill the whole thing out. 

We don't know what they have and haven't done internally. They could have work ongoing with SoB, like some troops, HQ, heavies, whatever as far as making some models. Once they get far enough along they can finish the whole range and focus on the rules/codex for the whole thing.

What's left after all the above stated codex? Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Tyranids (also rumored to get some love) and ..... After the end of next year there will be just a couple codex left if they continue along these lines of production. We should be able to see what's really going to happen then. IG seem still quite good as a codex, while Blood Angels probably could use some kind of update at some point (they do have a flyer so aren't too bad). Blood Angels do have a pretty current range of models though so any update should also be fairly easy with mostly rules changes needed if anything. IG is good for models also (except for maybe these female guardmen), and the rules for them are generally considered quite good, so probably not much work there needed.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> Well I would consider Dark Eldar, GK, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels all updated currently.
> 
> Vanilla SM have been updated somewhat with a flyer and digital codex.
> 
> Chaos Daemons are somewhat weird where they have had a WD update, mostly for Tzneech and Slaanesh (sp?), and rumored to get the other 2 factions some different units. So if they get some kind of codex, as some rumors go, then they would be considered updated also.
> 
> Orks got a WD update (flyers), but are also one of the oldest codex. They are rumored to get an update on the horizon.
> 
> Black Templars needed a lot of work, as another old codex, so it isn't lke they have gotten a lotta love either.
> 
> Eldar and Tau are both considered outdated, even if they aren't considered totally uncompetitive by some people.
> 
> SoB need a total overhaul (as regards to models), and GW is a model company. This means more work and harder to just squeeze it in there somewhere. Am I bummed that SoB don't seem like they are going to get really anything in the near future? Yeah of course, but we don't know every decision within the company. It is not hard to envision them knowing more what to do with all those other armies, like more current models (Eldar Rangers, current plastics/finecast, etc.) or mirrored codex (Eldar and Dark Eldar), and those taking much less time to churn out a bunch of new codex rather than another uninspired bland SoB just to give us something else. They can probably do about 2-3 codex in the same time it would to do a proper SoB one. They need some time to prepare the models and new rules to fill the whole thing out.
> 
> We don't know what they have and haven't done internally. They could have work ongoing with SoB, like some troops, HQ, heavies, whatever as far as making some models. Once they get far enough along they can finish the whole range and focus on the rules/codex for the whole thing.
> 
> What's left after all the above stated codex? Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Tyranids (also rumored to get some love) and ..... After the end of next year there will be just a couple codex left if they continue along these lines of production. We should be able to see what's really going to happen then. IG seem still quite good as a codex, while Blood Angels probably could use some kind of update at some point (they do have a flyer so aren't too bad). Blood Angels do have a pretty current range of models though so any update should also be fairly easy with mostly rules changes needed if anything. IG is good for models also (except for maybe these female guardmen), and the rules for them are generally considered quite good, so probably not much work there needed.


GW has a habit of skipping books that are older for ones that are newer all the time though (Vanilla Marines often do this as they get updated every edition) which is why I think 6th and later are the ones we should be watching as they are from the current edition (assuming the rumours of a perpetual 6th Edition are true)


----------



## Suijin

Well Necrons were supposedly written with 6th in mind and I don't know of anyone that considers GK lacking in 6th.

It is a long way off, but there have been updates or codices to those armies I listed after SoB was given the WD codex. If they all start getting new codices before SoB then I still think it falls under the "we have an issue here". So if 2-3 years from now DE, GK, Necron, CSM, DA are all getting new codices then SoB are obviously left out.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> GW has a habit of skipping books that are older for ones that are newer all the time though (Vanilla Marines often do this as they get updated every edition) which is why I think 6th and later are the ones we should be watching as they are from the current edition (assuming the rumours of a perpetual 6th Edition are true)


Well you don't want your little brats, drawn to giant dudez in powa armorz playing with an outdated book possibly killing off their better source of income so it does make sense that C:SM be "current" and I wouldn't expect it to be much longer with hardcover books making the C:SM book on the shelves right now seem... out of place.

Part of me hopes they hurry up with that one so we can get to more interesting armies. I want Banshees that are scary again :shout:


----------



## Troublehalf

By the way guys. I had a thought of what might happen to SoB.

So, as I said, in the Crusade of Fire book, Robbin Cruddance mentions how he had an Ally Contigent of SoB he wanted to us. He also wrote the IG book.

Now, since it looks like they will be squatted, the mention of the talk with the development team.. I have come up with the idea they might be combined with IG. Think of it, both IG + SoB are Battlebrothers in the rules, they usually work together in fluff, they have strong ties, you could use IG as allies for the SoB when they were part of the Witch-Hunters book. This time, SoB will be part of the IG. So, imagine when the new IG book is released, part of the book will have Sisters of Battles in, since there isn't a lot of SoB models, it wouldn't be too much. That way, people could buy Sisters of Battle and still play and increase the chance people will buy Imperial Guard. It also fits with the desire to get female gamers playing, as they will release IG female models, meaning they will get IG followed by some SoB allies. 

I personally think that's the best option we have out of nothing/squatted. What do you guys thinks?


----------



## Zion

Troublehalf said:


> By the way guys. I had a thought of what might happen to SoB.
> 
> So, as I said, in the Crusade of Fire book, Robbin Cruddance mentions how he had an Ally Contigent of SoB he wanted to us. He also wrote the IG book.
> 
> Now, since it looks like they will be squatted, the mention of the talk with the development team.. I have come up with the idea they might be combined with IG. Think of it, both IG + SoB are Battlebrothers in the rules, they usually work together in fluff, they have strong ties, you could use IG as allies for the SoB when they were part of the Witch-Hunters book. This time, SoB will be part of the IG. So, imagine when the new IG book is released, part of the book will have Sisters of Battles in, since there isn't a lot of SoB models, it wouldn't be too much. That way, people could buy Sisters of Battle and still play and increase the chance people will buy Imperial Guard. It also fits with the desire to get female gamers playing, as they will release IG female models, meaning they will get IG followed by some SoB allies.
> 
> I personally think that's the best option we have out of nothing/squatted. What do you guys thinks?


I doubt it. IG and Sisters may work together but they are fundamentally different in how they play. Not to mention with how thick that IG book is already are we really saying that it should expand by another third to fit the Sisters in?


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## Suijin

They would be better off just squatting them.

They need to redo the models into plastic or finecast anyway and that is the bulk of the work. Assuming they finished that part I don't see the benefit to adding them to another codex. Frankly I think they are putting too many ecclesiarch units in the current one even.


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## Mokuren

Zion said:


> I doubt it. IG and Sisters may work together but they are fundamentally different in how they play. Not to mention with how thick that IG book is already are we really saying that it should expand by another third to fit the Sisters in?


Considering Sisters basically have one infantry unit, it would be a joke to add them to the IG codex: "Sisters of Battle squad" in the Elites section. There. Done. It would also be a whole lot better than most other Elites choice the IG currently has, and that says a lot.

What? Canoness? Penitent engines? Exorcists? Pff, screw that noise, exorcists are now an upgrade to their rhino dedicated transport (or squatted entirely), penitent engines can only be taken with an ecclesiarchy priest which the IG already has (cheaper, too). Maybe the canoness will be an HQ. Maybe.

I'm saying that if we go out on a limb and assume nobody gives a damn about sisters, it would still be entirely possible to keep the entire model line, or the vast majority thereof, by adding one slot in the FoC of an already existing army.

Much, much cheaper than revising the entire army from scratch, like they should do if they intend to keep them afloat. They did it with necrons and dark eldar, but sisters... How long has it been since the last sisters rumor again?


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> Considering Sisters basically have one infantry unit, it would be a joke to add them to the IG codex: "Sisters of Battle squad" in the Elites section. There. Done. It would also be a whole lot better than most other Elites choice the IG currently has, and that says a lot.
> 
> What? Canoness? Penitent engines? Exorcists? Pff, screw that noise, exorcists are now an upgrade to their rhino dedicated transport (or squatted entirely), penitent engines can only be taken with an ecclesiarchy priest which the IG already has (cheaper, too). Maybe the canoness will be an HQ. Maybe.
> 
> I'm saying that if we go out on a limb and assume nobody gives a damn about sisters, it would still be entirely possible to keep the entire model line, or the vast majority thereof, by adding one slot in the FoC of an already existing army.
> 
> Much, much cheaper than revising the entire army from scratch, like they should do if they intend to keep them afloat. They did it with necrons and dark eldar, but sisters... How long has it been since the last sisters rumor again?


I'm not going to even address how silly most of that is. But I do want to point out that the Ecclesiarchy Priest the Sisters have is actually better than the Imperial Guard on because they don't make the unit count as moving.

Dark Eldar and Necrons sat on the shelves for the better part of a decade (DE where over a decade if I recall correctly) with no real word or sign of an update. Sisters and Templars are sitting in that spot now. Templars are looking at a 2014 update, and Sisters are not yet scheduled as far as I've read online. I don't think we're looking at being squatted, just being ficed.

Sisters actually have an issue I noticed as I've tried to start a new army project: they're a lot like everything. Dedicated specialists like Eldar? Check. Cheap bodies that be horded up like Guard or Orks? Check. Better shooting than close combat like Tau? Check. Abilities that can be triggered randomly like Orks? Check. Rhinos, Power Armour and Bolters like Marines?

Seriously, Sisters are as middle of the road right now as you can get, and that hurts them. How do you update a mess like that? I think that's the same issue GW is struggling with right now, just like they're trying to figure out how to expand the Templars.

I don't see Sisters going IG because it doesn't make any sense on the fiction level. Yes GW has changed the fiction in the past, but I don't see them folding armies into each other when they're fundamentally different in how they approach the game.


----------



## Necrosis

Here we go again with the whole combine codex thing. Remember how Sisters and Grey Knights were going to be put in a combine codex? Also let's take a look at all the new units you would need to add in:
Canoness and her command squad: 1 HQ
Priest and confessor you can use as the guard priest: 0
You can get rid of the battle conclave: 0
Sister Repentia: 1 Elite
Pentient Engine: 1 Heavy or 1 Elite but let's say heavy
Battle Sisters: 1 Troop or 1 Elite but let's say troops
Celestines, Dominions and Retributors you can ignore or make it an upgrade for battle sisters: 0
Seraphims: 1 Fast Attack
Excorist Tank no you cannot squat this or make it a simple upgrade maybe the immolator but not the Excorist Tank both GW and forgeworld sell this model: 1 Heavy
Rhino: 1 Dedicated Transport
Immolator you can make it a rhino upgrade but I doubt it with the space marine having razor backs so another dedicated transport: 1 Dedicated Transport
Saint Celestine: 1 Special Character
Confessor special characters can be used as confessors: 0

That means 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Heavy, 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack, 2 Dedicated Transport, 1 Special Character would be added in to the already pretty full imperial guard codex. At this point the develpoment team would say "F*** it, just give them a new codex" That being said I would love to see my sisters coming out of valkyries.


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## iamtheeviltwin

Necrosis said:


> Here we go again with the whole combine codex thing. Remember how Sisters and Grey Knights were going to be put in a combine codex? Also let's take a look at all the new units you would need to add in:
> Canoness and her command squad: 1 HQ
> Priest and confessor you can use as the guard priest: 0
> You can get rid of the battle conclave: 0
> Sister Repentia: 1 Elite
> Pentient Engine: 1 Heavy or 1 Elite but let's say heavy
> Battle Sisters: 1 Troop or 1 Elite but let's say troops
> Celestines, Dominions and Retributors you can ignore or make it an upgrade for battle sisters: 0
> Seraphims: 1 Fast Attack
> Excorist Tank no you cannot squat this or make it a simple upgrade maybe the immolator but not the Excorist Tank both GW and forgeworld sell this model: 1 Heavy
> Rhino: 1 Dedicated Transport
> Immolator you can make it a rhino upgrade but I doubt it with the space marine having razor backs so another dedicated transport: 1 Dedicated Transport
> Saint Celestine: 1 Special Character
> Confessor special characters can be used as confessors: 0
> 
> That means 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Heavy, 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack, 2 Dedicated Transport, 1 Special Character would be added in to the already pretty full imperial guard codex. At this point the develpoment team would say "F*** it, just give them a new codex" That being said I would love to see my sisters coming out of valkyries.


If they get wrapped into another codex it will be like someone mentioned above, 1 catch-all slot in the elite section. That is what they did with the Harlequins by rolling them into the CWE codex.

In my mind, the worst that will happen to the sisters is that they basically keep their current WD codex and are part of an "allies" supplemental book that includes things like Wild Orks, Harlequins, Corsairs, and a number of other sub-factions that have existed in previous codexes and lore over the life of 40k. Armies that are just fleshed out enough to work as stand alone forces (like the current SoB), but work really well as allied contingents.

It is all just wild speculation and tin-foil hat conspiracies at this point until GW officially does something to the Sisters line.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Just out of curiosity... if GW never intended for Sisters to receive an update codex for 6E, then, why are they included in the Allies Matrix of the BRB as an individual army entry?


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> I'm not going to even address how silly most of that is.


It is extremely silly, but it wouldn't be the first extremely silly thing I see happening.



Zion said:


> Seriously, Sisters are as middle of the road right now as you can get, and that hurts them. How do you update a mess like that? I think that's the same issue GW is struggling with right now, just like they're trying to figure out how to expand the Templars.


The fact they're a mess to update and they have absolutely zero ideas on how to do it is what I've always claimed to be their #1 reason to just go "eh, who cares, too much work".



Jace of Ultramar said:


> Just out of curiosity... if GW never intended for Sisters to receive an update codex for 6E, then, why are they included in the Allies Matrix of the BRB as an individual army entry?


That's what gives me hope. If they're still in the 6e's alliance matrix, it means they didn't decide to squat them. Then again, it doesn't mean they're going to fix them: putting them in the allies matrix might be "enough" updating for them for the whole edition.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Just out of curiosity... if GW never intended for Sisters to receive an update codex for 6E, then, why are they included in the Allies Matrix of the BRB as an individual army entry?


Because if they weren't included in there it is a sure fire way to guarantee that what ever stock they have remaining will never sell.

The "cost" of an extra line in the Allies Matrix is nothing compared to the money to be made from the hopefull

Their "latest" FAQ is July 2012 .........


----------



## Furyou Miko

You know why?

 Because good armies don't need frequent FAQs!


----------



## Suijin

Furyou Miko said:


> You know why?
> 
> Because good armies don't need frequent FAQs!


or just due to them having about half a codex without many special rules, wargear, or FOC swaps. I mean really there isn't much there other than the obvious stuff they already covered.


----------



## Necrosis

Suijin said:


> or just due to them having about half a codex without many special rules, wargear, or FOC swaps. I mean really there isn't much there other than the obvious stuff they already covered.


Enough of your blasphemous lies, you heretic.


----------



## Furyou Miko

Having a codex with the chaff already cut away isn't ALL bad...


----------



## Suijin

Furyou Miko said:


> Having a codex with the chaff already cut away isn't ALL bad...


Even with the limited choices in the codex there is still chaff. Priests, confessors, and celestians are units I would find hard to field in about any army. As far as wargear, plasma pistols are meh, eviscerators are somewhat expensive, power weapons on most units are questionable with the WS3, S3 and I3, and laud hailers are near worthless (I'd have to actually look to see if other stuff is shit).

Those are fairly large chunks of the codex.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> Even with the limited choices in the codex there is still chaff. Priests, confessors, and celestians are units I would find hard to field in about any army. As far as wargear, plasma pistols are meh, eviscerators are somewhat expensive, power weapons on most units are questionable with the WS3, S3 and I3, and laud hailers are near worthless (I'd have to actually look to see if other stuff is shit).
> 
> Those are fairly large chunks of the codex.


Priests are fine as a concept (and are better than the Guard equiv as units with them don't count as moving) but lack in a place to go (Repentia -need- their fleet to engage enemies effectively).

Confessors aren't bad, the problem is the SC versions are too good for too cheap.

Eviscerators really need to be more available. Currently only a handful of models can buy them and half of them don't want them due to being I4.

Power Weapons are the same as what Guard get. At least the Power Maul is a good option for them now.

Celestians aren't a bad concept, but lack any -real- veteran feel too them. But that's typical Cruddace there.


----------



## Necrosis

Make Eviscerators aviable to all superiors and drop them down to 15 points like all the other codexes. As for Celestians they are over costed.


----------



## Suijin

Zion said:


> Priests are fine as a concept (and are better than the Guard equiv as units with them don't count as moving) but lack in a place to go (Repentia -need- their fleet to engage enemies effectively).
> 
> Confessors aren't bad, the problem is the SC versions are too good for too cheap.
> 
> Eviscerators really need to be more available. Currently only a handful of models can buy them and half of them don't want them due to being I4.
> 
> Power Weapons are the same as what Guard get. At least the Power Maul is a good option for them now.
> 
> Celestians aren't a bad concept, but lack any -real- veteran feel too them. But that's typical Cruddace there.


Priests get to be 70 points after you give them an eviscerator, seems to be too much with WS3, S3, T3, A2, and you are right they kind of have no place to go.

Confessors are OK in and by themselves rules-wise yes, but they don't compare to the SCs so no point in taking them.

Power weapons have a rough place in SoB. Mostly WS3, S3, I3, A3 (with pistol) doesn't really amaze me stat-wise and doesn't change getting murdered in assault, so what's the point taking something to make you marginally better in assault where you don't want to be?

Celestians mostly aren't built right. They should all be able to be given power weapons and/or storm bolters. They should all also be able to take a CCW and a pistol as an option, depending on how you want to build them/your purpose with them. To have a faith power that is assault centric, they need to actually be better than they are at it, even if it costs more points to outfit them that way.

Celestians and probably Seraphim should have probably either been given or had the option for artificer armor (for more base points cost of course). This would provide more diversity to choosing different units within the codex.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> Priests get to be 70 points after you give them an eviscerator, seems to be too much with WS3, S3, T3, A2, and you are right they kind of have no place to go.
> 
> Confessors are OK in and by themselves rules-wise yes, but they don't compare to the SCs so no point in taking them.
> 
> Power weapons have a rough place in SoB. Mostly WS3, S3, I3, A3 (with pistol) doesn't really amaze me stat-wise and doesn't change getting murdered in assault, so what's the point taking something to make you marginally better in assault where you don't want to be?
> 
> Celestians mostly aren't built right. They should all be able to be given power weapons and/or storm bolters. They should all also be able to take a CCW and a pistol as an option, depending on how you want to build them/your purpose with them. To have a faith power that is assault centric, they need to actually be better than they are at it, even if it costs more points to outfit them that way.
> 
> Celestians and probably Seraphim should have probably either been given or had the option for artificer armor (for more base points cost of course). This would provide more diversity to choosing different units within the codex.


Elite Seraphim with a 2+ armour save would be awesome.


----------



## Suijin

Seraphim aren't beasts in assault and their weapons are only 12" range, so it would seem that something like a 2+ armor save would fit them.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I read on a list somewhere plastic sisters are on their way, is that true?


----------



## Tawa

Words_of_Truth said:


> I read on a list somewhere plastic sisters are on their way, is that true?


As mentioned elsewhere, if it's true I'll have to re-mortgage :laugh:


----------



## Kettu

Words_of_Truth said:


> I read on a list somewhere plastic sisters are on their way, is that true?


If you are talking about that large list of Hobbit and 40K releases that showed up a short while ago, the closest thing to consensus for that list was it is fake but well put together by someone who has at least a small idea or was really clued into rumours themselves.

Something to note though is that no dates are given and there is products mentioned on it that give the list roughly a 1 & 1/2 year arch.
If this list _is/was/still will be/partially is_ true, then Sisters may still be mid or late 2015, give or take a few months, possibly even 2016. That all seems to match up with what we have heard said before where even if Sisters had been placed at the end of the update _'queue'_ then we'd be looking at that time frame regardless.

Short of waiting till then end of 2015, we won't know the true extent of the accuracy of that list however.

Also of note; assuming Sisters are getting a full codex and not a baby/cutdown/combined dex as that list suggests or even being squatted (As many Pessimists and Cynics, myself included, have suggested), then plastics would not just be a given, but a straight out certainty at this point. It ceases to be a question of _'when'_ but rather _'which'_. Just the Sisters? Seraphim? Celestians? Repentia? Retrubutions? New Kits? Flyers? (Come on Lancaster, Sisters need their own G-for-George) Tanks? Etc... etc...

I'm not here to intentionally ruin hopes and dreams (Yes I am :so_happy but just as it stands, Sisters are almost certainly not this year. 
I personally doubt all of 2014 also. Mid to late 6th ed really wouldn't surprise me at all here.


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## Zion

Kettu said:


> If you are talking about that large list of Hobbit and 40K releases that showed up a short while ago, the closest thing to consensus for that list was it is fake but well put together by someone who has at least a small idea or was really clued into rumours themselves.
> 
> Something to note though is that no dates are given and there is products mentioned on it that give the list roughly a 1 & 1/2 year arch.
> If this list _is/was/still will be/partially is_ true, then Sisters may still be mid or late 2015, give or take a few months, possibly even 2016. That all seems to match up with what we have heard said before where even if Sisters had been placed at the end of the update _'queue'_ then we'd be looking at that time frame regardless.
> 
> Short of waiting till then end of 2015, we won't know the true extent of the accuracy of that list however.
> 
> Also of note; assuming Sisters are getting a full codex and not a baby/cutdown/combined dex as that list suggests or even being squatted (As many Pessimists and Cynics, myself included, have suggested), then plastics would not just be a given, but a straight out certainty at this point. It ceases to be a question of _'when'_ but rather _'which'_. Just the Sisters? Seraphim? Celestians? Repentia? Retrubutions? New Kits? Flyers? (Come on Lancaster, Sisters need their own G-for-George) Tanks? Etc... etc...
> 
> I'm not here to intentionally ruin hopes and dreams (Yes I am :so_happy but just as it stands, Sisters are almost certainly not this year.
> I personally doubt all of 2014 also. Mid to late 6th ed really wouldn't surprise me at all here.


I still disagree with the squatting, but generally speaking the _soonest_ we could see Sisters is 2014. *IF* the codex release rate continues at this pace I think it's completely possible that we could see them by the end of 2014, especially if priority is being given to the books with no Flyers or Skyfire weapons in the updates.

Of course only time will tell on if that's the case or not of course.


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## Troublehalf

I know this has been posted, but look:

280002430140206 Sisters of Battle Prioress Lazarea Verata RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280002230140208 Sisters of Battle Sister Superior Magdalenia RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280000330740205 Sisters of Battle Repentia Squad RE b07 Len_A 02 cc
280002330140207 Sisters of Battle Canoness with Power Axe RE c01 Len_A 02 cc
280000211440200 Sisters of Battle Seraphim / Patronica Squad PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
280000111440201 Sisters of Battle Battle Sisters PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
280000411840206 Sisters of Battle Exorcist / Catafalque of Sins PL a18 Len_A 02 cc

Then things like this:

281041230110209 Imperial Agents Enforcer with Heavy Stubber RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
284054630110202 Kroot Kroothawks RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
286010311080200 Cult Hybrid Upgrade Pack PL a10 XianD 02 cc
281047530110208 Imperial Agents Obsideo Assassin RE c01 Len_B 02 cc
281049111440209 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Kill Team PL a14 Len_A 02 cc
281049230140202 Imperial Agents Deathwatch Librarian RE c01 Len_A 02 cc


So, if we go through this, it would SEEM like Sisters of Battle are going to get love. However, I do not believe it will be both kits + codex. What I personally believe is that Sisters of Battle will be combined with the Inquisition et al and will make up Codex: Imperial Agents. This makes perfect sense as well as business sense. If GW release Codex's which are basically Ally codex's, they can make more money off the Codex sales, the models being bought to ally and so on. People go "Oh, I like this model, I'll put it in my Space Marine/IG/Whatever army, but I'll need the rules...." Next they create another Ally codex, perhaps Codex: Exodites, Corsairs and Craftworlders.... Which is basically allowing you to get some of those guys in to your Eldar/DE force. Tau will get "Codex: Xenos" and Chaos will get Codex: Cultists or something. Even if they need anything.

If you look at the supposed product models, there will be Imperial Agents and SoB. It could include Assassins, allowing them to be used by any force, Custodians and so on. GW declined to put the PDF of the WD codex on the website stating they were trying to talk to the Development team. Therefore, it could be simply them asking "Will Codex: Imperial Agents be done soon? If yes, we won't bother, if no we will" and since everything on this list is rumoured to be out soon (Tau is next release, see my pics in Tau topic, followed by a WHFB, followed by Eldar, followed by WHFB (High Elves and Lizardmen apparently). So, who knows. I'd love the idea of having a IG army with SoB as Allies. It'll be a polar opposite from days of old. SoB with Stormtrooper allies. Ah...


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## Zion

The problem with that list is that it's looking dicey if we're going to see the things on it at all. Now it's possible, but we have to operate under the assumption that this list is fake for now.


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## Troublehalf

Suijin said:


> Power weapons have a rough place in SoB. Mostly WS3, S3, I3, A3 (with pistol) doesn't really amaze me stat-wise and doesn't change getting murdered in assault, so what's the point taking something to make you marginally better in assault where you don't want to be?



Actually, Power Weapons are great for SoB. For one reason only.

Death Cult Assassins.

Not only are DCA WS:5, but AS: 6+ and Invulnerable: 5++, they have TWO POWER WEAPONS. In the 6th Edition 40k Rulebook it says that if the model does not have a specific Power Weapon mentioned, then you use whatever has been modeled on. So, basically, you get a Death Cult Assassin and put a Power Axe, Power Maul, Power Fist or whatever on, that counts and costs you no extra. What's even better? They can have two. Which gives them an auto +1A anyway. So, Power Mauls x2 or Power Axes x2 or Power Maul x1 Power Fist x1. So on, so forth. This makes them an extremely deadly unit. Power Axe + Power Sword also a good combo: This is because Power Axe is AP2 but Initative 1, meaning you'll get raped by fast units. However, if you take the Power Sword, which is AP3 (Fuck you Mr Ward) you can kill anything that comes. MEQ? Power Axe. Eldar? Sword. I do like Mauls and Axes, so, do whatever! Anyway, what you do is get 4 of them (small number, I know) buy 5 Crusaders (giving them Power Weapons is expensive, so don't bother) and then add Uriah Jackobs. Not only does this give you +1A (taking Death Cult Assassins to 4 attacks base, 5 on charge) AND Feel No Pain. While this isn't a substitute for toughness, the Crusaders created a shield wall and protect the DCA as they move forward. Crusaders use their 3++ to get you close.

The icing on the cake? Due to the amount of models, you automatically make the entire squad WS:5, so the Crusaders get some more WS.

So, Battle Conclaves are awesome. Command Squads are close to "Most useless unit" in 40k, but thankfully Pyrovores exist.

Also, SoB are probably one of the armies that does not benefit a lot from a Aegis Defence Line. However, it is possible for you to put Retributours there, your Cannones (which is useless really) and plonk a Quad-Gun down. When you use Act of Faith, the Quad-Gun gets it too. Rending Quad-Gun? Awesome. It's also your only reasonable AA unit outside of Forge World.

Anyway, SoB are fun... I just think Black Templars and SoB are similar and GW are trying to push them out.


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## revilo44

Well if there do not make a PDF then sob mau come in June after a fantasy book.because they have not had two xeos codexs done after each other for a long time.


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## Bindi Baji

Troublehalf said:


> What I personally believe is that Sisters of Battle will be combined with the Inquisition et al and will make up Codex: Imperial Agents.


before you get mobbed by a few hundred SOB fans I'll point out this "is not" happening


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## Words_of_Truth

Do you think the Agents will include Arbites?


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## Mokuren

Bindi Baji said:


> before you get mobbed by a few hundred SOB fans I'll point out this "is not" happening


Which is a pity, at this point I'd rather sisters get shoehorned back into something else as long as they get a release that pulls them out of their current sorry state.

I mean I don't believe they're ever going to create something with enough fluff and variety to match any of the 6e codices that came out until now, I remain thoroughly convinced that no one at GW has any idea what to do with them, and yes, I'd rather see them shoehorned for no reason into Black Templars than play yet again the army with only one troop choice and only one choice per slot that is the exact same as the troop choice anyways.

Of course they'll never get shoehorned in Black Templars because they're space marines, and GW writers will eagerly reboot them like they did with Dark Angels, and they'll end up having all of the SoB's shticks and benefits and none of the drawbacks.

But then again, this is just pointless, there's no "reliable" rumours about any of the sort yet, which is why the truth of the matter is "Nothing's going to happen for a long while longer".


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## Bindi Baji

Mokuren said:


> which is why the truth of the matter is "Nothing's going to happen for a long while longer".


It all depends on how you define "a long while longer" really,
give it a year and we'll see how everyone feels then.............


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## DeSteele

Bindi Baji said:


> It all depends on how you define "a long while longer" really,
> give it a year and we'll see how everyone feels then.............


y
Happy to wait a year* for solid news but what I want is our own full separate codex like we used to have.
Think GW can easily create more units and fluff for Sisters to make them unique, after all, if they can do it with all the SM codexs, it should be a romp with a completely separate organisation.

* Would be happier if it was quicker


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## Loli

This was a comment I read regarding the possible omission of the Kroot. 



> From what I've heard of the allies codex - don't take this as gospel - but the whole point apparently is to take an element of existing 40k forces, so for example Eldar pirates, renegade guard and possibly Kroot, limit them in some fashion but allow them to keep the same flavour, and in exchange they're battle brothers as you're bartering/trading/enslaving them.
> 
> My own theory on this is we won't see this until after codex Eldar, maybe even Orks, and this is why the xenos forces are getting a lot of love recently. So when the allies dex is released, all the special rules and abilities they get will be reflected in the existing codices. Final point, I believe this is where SoB will be going, and suspect Assassins and Legion of the Damned will be in it as well. I guess the grot list might be in there too but I honestly didn't ask as this conversation I had was several weeks ago.


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## Suijin

Troublehalf said:


> Actually, Power Weapons are great for SoB. For one reason only.
> 
> Death Cult Assassins.
> 
> Not only are DCA WS:5, but AS: 6+ and Invulnerable: 5++, they have TWO POWER WEAPONS. In the 6th Edition 40k Rulebook it says that if the model does not have a specific Power Weapon mentioned, then you use whatever has been modeled on. So, basically, you get a Death Cult Assassin and put a Power Axe, Power Maul, Power Fist or whatever on, that counts and costs you no extra. What's even better? They can have two. Which gives them an auto +1A anyway. So, Power Mauls x2 or Power Axes x2 or Power Maul x1 Power Fist x1. So on, so forth. This makes them an extremely deadly unit. Power Axe + Power Sword also a good combo: This is because Power Axe is AP2 but Initative 1, meaning you'll get raped by fast units. However, if you take the Power Sword, which is AP3 (Fuck you Mr Ward) you can kill anything that comes. MEQ? Power Axe. Eldar? Sword. I do like Mauls and Axes, so, do whatever! Anyway, what you do is get 4 of them (small number, I know) buy 5 Crusaders (giving them Power Weapons is expensive, so don't bother) and then add Uriah Jackobs. Not only does this give you +1A (taking Death Cult Assassins to 4 attacks base, 5 on charge) AND Feel No Pain. While this isn't a substitute for toughness, the Crusaders created a shield wall and protect the DCA as they move forward. Crusaders use their 3++ to get you close.


I never said power weapons were bad on DCA, it was the other stat line of sister superiors, etc.

Really the only stand out best power weapon type for DCA is the power maul. It is good/great for MC, T5&6 bikers, carapace and worse armor, T3 multiwound, and light vehicles. The power axe at I1 isn't very good for the I1 aspect. So my choice for the second weapon is either the spear or sword, and I haven't fully decided yet which is best.



Troublehalf said:


> The icing on the cake? Due to the amount of models, you automatically make the entire squad WS:5, so the Crusaders get some more WS.


No clue what you are talking about crusaders getting more WS due to the amount of models??? I guess opponents attacking you use the majority WS to figure what they need to hit you, must be what you are saying. In general, I don't know if that helps you much as you are looking to kill them before they kill you and are going to have either all or majority DCA anyway, so you will always have that benefit. Crusaders still only attack the enemy with their own WS no matter what, which is still WS4.


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## Zion

Well time for some more rumour based explanations on why Sisters are apparently on the bottom of the list again:

Sisters of Battle seem to share some key problems that the Bretonnian army does: a connection to the French (the inspiration from Joan of Arc being one of the big ones for the Sisters along with the Fluer-de-Lys on almost every model doesn't help). And apparently the current group of writers has no interest in working on French armies...because their British.

Now this is just a rumour pulled down through the grapevine from that last big manager's conference they had in England. It may or may not be true, but I have to say that the level of pettiness is actually about right for why it's not getting worked on. On the other hand "it's too French" is an easy cop-out and shouldn't be the reason anyone is hiding behind on why something isn't getting done.


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## Bindi Baji

Zion said:


> And apparently the current group of writers has no interest in working on French armies...because their British.


:laugh:
nearly wet myself reading that, it sounds pretty unlikely but hilarious at the same time


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## iamtheeviltwin

Zion said:


> Sisters of Battle seem to share some key problems that the Bretonnian army does: a connection to the French


I always thought the Bretonnian army was firmly tied into British lore (King Arthur, the Grail, Lady of the Lake, English Longbowmen, etc). I guess a Lancelot could be French, but still...


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## Words_of_Truth

Bretonnian lore annoys me, the majority of it is British lore but they've stuck the French stamp on it with the names and insignias.


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## Zion

Bindi Baji said:


> :laugh:
> nearly wet myself reading that, it sounds pretty unlikely but hilarious at the same time


It's one of those things that seems pretty unlikely but seems just plausible enough (because lets face it, people are petty when you get down to it) to be true.

I'd love to get some verification on it though so we can put it to rest (or not).


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## GrizBe

That and we British hate the French as a matter of tradition. Damned cheese eating surrender monkeys.


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## SilverTabby

Bretonnians I can get, even if it is all british lore with names francified. The Sisters connection to the french though begins and ends with that little symbol :wink:


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Bretonnians I can get, even if it is all british lore with names francified. The Sisters connection to the french though begins and ends with that little symbol :wink:


Well that and the inspiration from Joan of Arc....who lead the French to several victories against England in the Hundred Years War.....


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## Necrosis

I guess their still mad that the French won the 100 year war (Yes the French did win a war)

Being serious now, I really don't think this is the real reason why they have been delayed.


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## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> Well that and the inspiration from Joan of Arc....who lead the French to several victories against England in the Hundred Years War.....


Is there really a connection to Joan of Arc other than she was female, led armies and was martyred? Or is she referenced simply for the above reasons?


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Is there really a connection to Joan of Arc other than she was female, led armies and was martyred? Or is she referenced simply for the above reasons?


Powerful figure of faith, wore platemail, talked to God...and the above reasons.

I think she was a key figure that influenced the Sisters we have today.


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## Tawa

Zion said:


> And apparently the current group of writers has no interest in working on French armies...because their British.


I fear you mean English. :laugh:
Get some Scots on the team! The "Auld Alliance" will get things moving again!


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## Bindi Baji

The overall commander and spiritual leader of the entire Sisterhood is the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas , although the position is currently unoccupied. 

It was at the bequeath of the last Abbess (Trevor the 14th) that all Sisters stopped wearing red berets, taking several hours for lunch and hanging garlic from Immolaters.

See retcon in action

:wink:


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## nevynxxx

But, but, I'm part French (sorry) and I *hate* Brettonians.....


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## Tawa

Bindi Baji said:


> The overall commander and spiritual leader of the entire Sisterhood is the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas , although the position is currently unoccupied.
> 
> It was at the bequeath of the last Abbess (Trevor the 14th) that all Sisters stopped wearing red berets, taking several hours for lunch and hanging garlic from Immolaters.
> 
> See retcon in action
> 
> :wink:


See now this I believe.....


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