# a which army question by a WHFB noob



## qurfy (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks ahead of time I appreciate the help I can get.

Hello, I come here today before you with a predicjmite I hope you guys, and gals can help me figure out. I would like to start playing warhammer fantasy. And after doing some research I have narrowed it down to something like this. Here are some armies that have tickled my fancy.
-Vampire Counts These three are at the top
-Dark Elves 
-High Elves 

Then maybe Dwarfs, and Beastmen.

I would like to note I have a small lot/army of ogres who of which I got from a friend but would like to play a different army as my main, although I'll probably play with the ogres every now and then. My preference in an army would to be good at CC, have some good magic, doesn't matter if the army is hard to play for a beg. like me. Could you tell me the difference between the armies play styles, fluff, and which would be the most enjoyable army. And for me, playing 40k w/my CSM I lose the majority of the time and still have fun. The army able to versitile. Currently I've been going back and forth with the elves and VC, although I'm leaning towards the DE's over the HE's , and VC's being even with the DE's.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Frankly, ogres are your best bet right now. The army has a new book, is extremely competitive in 8th edition, has lots of options, is cheaper to build and easier to paint than most armies due to fewer models and higher points costs per model. While our primary armies are orcs and goblins, dark elves, daemons, and lizardmen, we are busy painting an ogres army because it is a very flexible army, competitive, and fun to play. You have war machine equivalents (better with ironblasters), you have nasty cav units, you have decent core, you now have good shooting in leadbelchers, you have decent magic and fighting characters for the points costs, interference and diversion/war machine hunters in solo sabrecats, and some interesting other units (gnoblars with trappers and maneaters). 

I find high elves somewhat limited right now in 8th edition. You do have excellent special infantry in phoenix guard, white lions, and swordmasters and excellent magic offense and defense, but the number of selections and stuff kind of limits the ability to grow the army and mix it up in 8th edition. The army book needs some additional options and changes in points costs for certain units IMO. Also, elves have elf toughness (T3). On the other hand, given the availability of models due to kits and sellers, a high elf army will be the cheapest of the three to buy and build over time. Also, you would have a fun and decent army to play but a bit less competitive than the other choices mentioned. 

Dark Elves are a tier one army and have lots of choices and a lot of interesting choices. They have good shooting, some excellent magic offense options, hydras for monsters are about the best in the game, they have a lot of magic items that make their troops resilient. They have good scouts, good flying skirmishers, core units are decent with repeater crossbowman being best value, they have viable cav in cold one knights, and they have a unit of elite infantry in black guard that are worth playing. One concern is that a new book will probably nerf the army quite a bit because the 8th edition army books are limiting the number of magic items and increasing their costs, so a lot of the tricks that make dark elves a top army in terms of competitiveness will probably go away. 

Vampire just got a new book. Some of the tricks that made vampires a top army have been taken away, but the book is balanced, added some new viable options and units, interesting and likely to be competitive. It will likely cost more to buy and build the army due to new models (GW price increases) and the large number of core units. If you go with zombies and/or skeletons as core, expect to have to buy and build and paint a lot of them (both for starting core requirement and also because spells can and will increase the sizes of those units with certain magic abilities). 

Dwarves are very competitive and under-rated. It is an army that can be bought and built for a bit less due to war machines and elite infantry. A good friend has provent that army can win highly competitive tourney and be interesting to play, but I find that the options and most viable strategies are somewhat limited (two cannons, a grudge, organ guns and then warriors, ironbreakers, and hammerers mostly with a than BSB, runelord or smiths and maybe a lord). 

Beastmen are interesting but just not very viable right now. There is really only one build that is competitive. The book was the one of the last books written in 7th edition and written with 8th edition in mind and was poorly designed, frankly. I have some friends that like and successfully play beastmen, but I just find that the army is limited right now, despite its options.


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## qurfy (Mar 14, 2011)

At my local hobby shop the fantasy group is a bit smaller than you might imagine and with the few armies played ogres happens to be one of them, and one of my concerns is that if I continued with the ogres I would be playing the guy with them since he happens to be the most common player there and wouldn't want to play my army against well the same faction. For you or anyone out there do you find it still fun to play against the same faction? I wouldn't know with my CSM, but the idea seems well not as fun as crushing those who worship the false emperor, or any xeno out there who wishes to defy the chaos gods,(srry ranting) .Would watching battle reports online help with getting a better understanding on what I would be playing with? I probably wont be able to go in my local hobby shop for about a month in a 1/2 so I could wait until then and then demo some games with the armies if you guys think that's really the best way to go.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Let's talk about High Elves.

The game is divided into four phases, Movement (which includes charging!), Magic, Shooting and Close Combat in that order. You'll generally want to ask yourself which of those phases excite you the most and pick an army that's good at your two favourites.

High Elves have a strong movement and CC phase phase and are very strong in the Magic phase, but our shooting is sub-par. Some say we simply don't have any truelly good shooting units - I go further and say all our shooting units are bad.


All High Elves have a special rule: Speed of Asuryan. That means that, regardless of initiative they Always Strike First (ASF). In addition, if the Elves' initiative is equal to or higher than the enemy's (and it usually is), they reroll to-hit.

In Fantasy, Greatweapons grant +2 Strength to wound, but make the wielder Always Strike Last (ASL) - a bit like a 40k powerfist. High Elves ASF regardless of weapon. Even with Greatweapons, we hit first.

That means high Elves almost always hit (high natural init means we have rerolls most of the time) and almost always wound (our good troops have STR4-6 due to weapons carried).


This is not nearly so powerful as sounds, since elves are weak and have thin armour, but it is cool, and very flavourful. We are very very glass-cannon. We hit first, and kill lots, but if the bad guys survive, they kill lots back.


We have good stats, even basic Core are WS/BS4 I5 Ld8, and it only goes up from there. We also have movement 5 across the board, and that combined with our small numbers mean we can mostly out-manouver the other guy in the Movement phase.

We pay for that by having some of the most expensive troops in the game.



The High Elf force is actually one of the least cookie-cutter armies in the game right now. No two people agree on just what the ideal list is, and in fact, most people differ significantly. That's nice.

However, there are some common elements.

Your typical High elf army is led by a Level 4 High Elf Mage.

Like All High Elf Magi, he has an extra+1 to Dispel enemy magic (for +5 total) which is very very useful. He has good leadership (9) and like all elves, he moves fast and has good initiative, with Always Strike first (not that you want him in CC).

High Elf Mages may choose from nine Lores of Magic. More than any other army in the game. They may use their own Lore of High Magic, or any of the eight Lores in the main rulebook.

(Most armies have access to only a few core Lores, some have their own Lore as well or instead. Only High Elves have their own Lore AND access to all eight core Lores)

High Elves also have some of the best wizard-enhancing magic items in the game, such as the silver Wand which grants an extra spell, and the Banner of Sorcery which adds an additional d3 Power Dice to our casting pool, making for a very strong Magic Phase, or the Annulian Crystal which reduces the enemy's casting pool and buffs our dispelling pool at the same time.

We don't have the best magic in the game, or the best anti-magic, but no other army comes close to our combined magic/anti-magic.


High Elf combat characters are not the best in the game, but have a number of key advantages.

Unlike anyone else, Elves may wield Great Weapons (+2 Strength) without the initiative penalty. In fact, even with a Great Weapon, Elves Always Strike First - that means not only do Elf characters hit hard, they hit first.

High Elf magic items mean that a fighty elf Lord will often have a 2+ rerollable armour save, 4+ ward (an invulnerable save that can be taken in addition to armour), a 2+ Ward against fire and will often make the enemy reroll succesfull armour and ward saves.

Since a Great Weapon is so useful to us, our Characters almost never need a Magic Weapon, which frees up points for other magic items, of which we have a lot of good ones.


High Elf Core Troops are normally a large block of spearmen or several small units of Archers, or a blend. All our core troops have excellent WS and BS Always Strike First and usually re-roll to-hit, allowing them to go toe-to-toe with even the elite troops of other armies. Elf spearmen and Seaguard always fight with one rank more than any other army's Spearmen allowing for a huge volume of attacks.

Our core troops also have high Leadership (8). Elf spearmen with the spell Mindrazor (use Leadership instead of strength to wound) make other armies cry for their mummies. Yeah, 51 STR 8 reroll to-hit attacks will do that.

Oh, and in Fantasy, STR modifies armour saves, so STR8 renders any save of less than 2+ worthless!


High Elf Special however, is where we truely shine.

First, unlike any other army in the game, we can field more than two of the same kind of Special and Rare units. Hell yeah.

Swordmasters are like an elf-shaped buzzsaw. WS6, STR5, I5, two attacks each, Always Strike First. See that hoard of badguys. Boom, gone. Next.

White Lions. Yeah, that's right, they're lion-strangling lumberjack Elves. Strength SIX! Stubborn with a 3+ save Vs shooting. Our go-to Monster Killers.

Phoenix Guard. Four. Plus. Ward. (remember, in fantasy, Ward (Invul) saves are taken as well as Armour, not instead. These guys have 5+ armour and if that fails they still have that 4+ ward.) Only Strength four but with that Ward, add in the Banner of the World Dragon (unit is utterly immune to magic) and you have an anvil that will survive anything.

Dragon Princes may just be the best heavy Cavalry in the game. 2+ armour AND 2+ ward against flaming attacks, Elven Steeds (faster than other horses, and twice as elven!) Two attacks at WS5/I6 Always Strike First, STR5 on the charge.



High Elf Rare units are all about Great Eagles.

To quote from one of my regular opponants 'Those Eagles aren't strong, but they're so annoying!'

Yes. Yes they are, that's how you know I'm using them right. Whether it's hunting war machines, blocking marchers, preventing charges or just getting the hell in the other guy's way, Eagles are there.


High elves are not a top-tier army, but they are hugely fun to play. They have a massive list of funky tricks and really reward the technical playstyle.


Elf Weaknesses are resistance, discounting characters and cavalry, nothing in our army has an armour save better than 5+. All Elves are Toughness 3.

All elves are on 20mm bases, and cost a lot of points, typically around twice as much as a human with a similar role. Small bases and high points mean we have about the highest points to area ratio in the game and that hurts when templates start flying.

We are also weak in the shooting phase. We have expensive, mediocre Archers and one very overcosted war machine.

We are also almost always outnumbered both in terms of units and models. We have good Leadership, but if even one of your units does run, that is a massive problem from which you mightn't recover.

As good as our Magi are, they are very expensive. (The downside of army-wide ASF is that we pay for it, even on models that should not be in combat, like Magi and Archers). We can really dominate the magic-phase, but expect to pay up to 25% of your total points to do it.


Model-wise, we have some of the best, and some of the worst models in the game. Our Archers and spearmen are just plain ugly. Damn they are ugly. and you've got to use them... feels bad, man.

On the other hand, Dragon Princes are superb - a real joy to paint and they look ace on the table. Our Dragon is also a sight to behold.

It's definately an army that will let you have fun as a painter or converter.


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## qurfy (Mar 14, 2011)

So in your opinion from least to greatest on a scale of 1-10 of the armies I listed which armies are the most fun.
-DE
-HE
-VC
-OK


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I'm not fully willing to throw numbers around, but in more subjective terms - I'd say

Dark Elves - the most fun of the four I suspect - they do almost everything High Elves do, only better, cheaper or both - they are far and away the most competative army you list and winning is fun, even if that's not the main reason we play. Apart from winning, they have all the advantages of High Elves.

Ogres have a 'point-and-laugh' element to them, and some of their units are funny - but honestly I struggle to see where the fun is. They can certainly win games, but the Ogre player at my club doesn't often seem to smile when playing, and I think I wouldn't either.

High Elves are very rewarding to play and most of the fun (for me) comes of making a plan and watching it come together. High Elves make for highly bloody games where you kill loads of bad guys and lose loads of Elves. You'll very rarely draw a game.

Vampire Counts have just got a new book, so who can say how fun it is. It looks like your standard issue hoards of worthless undead lead by a few ultimate badasses, though. Fun very much deppendant on how much you like painting skeletons, methinks.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Azezel your perspective is very limited. You are right about dark and high elves but not about ogres or vamps. 

Ogres are now, with their new book, a potentially top tier army if played right. The new ironblasters, maneaters, and mournfang cav, leadbelchers, and sabrecats combined with the lower points costs of core ogres and ironguts and dropping of some of the other rules made the army much more competitive. I just saw Ogres win a small three round one-day local tourney in early December against top ranked players in the US. Ogres can lose if not played well or right but also can win tournaments. The old book is no more. A good ogres player could break even against good competition with the old book and will now win a lot with the new book. 

VC look very good. They took some of the tricks (Helm and Regen banner and ability to generate power dice with vampiric powers) away that made the army almost broken in 7th edition but recosted the units, made necros efficient casters, and allowed vamps to take armour, weapons, and mounts as equipment (instead of as vampiric powers) to make just about everything playable and competitive and gave two new monstrous infantry units to the army that look good. VC will play differently but looks like a fun, competitive army if played right. Also, crypt ghouls are not worthless undead but are quite formidable with T4, poison and 2 attacks each and most competitive VC builds prior to the new book played ghouls as core (underpriced for what they did in the old book) and grave guard with magic-heavy vamps. Now, with the lower point costs and changes, you will see skellies and zombies more as tar-pit units that continually get regrown with a lot of different possible winnning units and models and strategies and more mixed fighting, ethereal, defensive, and magic strategies for winning.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

olderplayer said:


> Azezel your perspective is very limited.


I can't argue with that.

However, the OP is asking about fun, and I stand by what I said. I don't see the fun in the Ogre army*, either from leafing through the book or from watching my mate play his. There's no doubt that the OK book is effective on the table, and winning _is_ fun, but it's not enough on its own to make an army fun to collect and play.

And the VC book is still too new to really know how it plays, so the best way to judge the fun is by the models, and a chap's going to need a ton of skeletons, so he'd better like painting them.


* I think the fun is supposed to come from the comedy elements, like Greenskins, but Ogres don't do comedy as well as greenskins. If you want an army to be fun by being funny (and more power to you) pick Greenskins every time.


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## gop (Jun 14, 2010)

OP: Like I always say in these which army to play threads, make sure you get down to your local store and club, and see the armies in action. The hobby isn't cheap so take a bit of time to figure out which army you prefer. Even the variety of units in an army can differ a lot so make sure you check army composition as well. And don't be afraid to buy 2nd hand armies or units.


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## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

Sometimes when I have difficulty making a decision I roll a die. Often what happens is that I find that I keep on rolling the die until I decide that I don't want to do a re-roll - and then I find out what I really want to do after all.

In your case you have six options: VC, DE, HE, Dwarfs, Beastmen and Ogres. Give them all a number from one to six and roll that D6.

If, after you have rolled up, say, Dwarfs, you find that you actually want to re-roll the dice, then you can cross them off your list and roll again. Keep going until you only have one army left, or you roll up one that you're happy with.


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## riburn3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Fun in this hobby is such a vague thing, I think we need a little more definition. If crushing all your foes is what you think is fun, go with whatever the flavor of the month is, and look at what armies are consistently in the top 3 of every major tournament.

If fun is the modeling/painting aspect, think about which army you want to convert more, and which army you think you can stand painting a lot of. 

If you hate painting a lot, expensive point armies like Ogres or Warriors of Chaos can be forgiving.

On these forums a lot of people define fun as creating the same army list every other player with that army has, and trying to steamrole their friends/local tournament, so be careful when asking opinions because you will get a very narrow view.

Personally from your list, I would narrow it down to DE or VC. I personally like being the bad guy, like playing darker themed/painted armies, and both armies have good support from GW and will be competitive on the table top. From there, just go with what you think you would like to paint more of. If it were me, VC because there seems to be a lot more variety in terms of painting opportunities in the army.

As a side note, I play Warriors of Chaos, and if I were to play a new army tomorrow, it would be Skaven. While it's always fun playing the "flavor of the month" army, it's important to remember that on the table top it's still about the luck of the dice and the person controlling what each unit does. Pick whatever looks appealing to you and something you want to invest your time and money in. Every single army in this game is "fun" for someone out there.


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