# IG vs CSM



## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

So my previous post (Some IG tank/sniper questions vs Nids) I used your guys' advice and stayed away from using snipers. Instead I used flamers against my Nid buddy. I ended up having over 20 flamers on the field, so to put it simply I roasted those bugs. I won a kill point game, 1850 points, by turn 4. 

So now my CSM buddy wants to face me. I've never faced CSM before, so I have no idea what to expect. My buddy has also been playing for years and I've only been playing for a few months. I don't expect to win against him, but I would definitely like to give him a run for his money.

Any suggestions? 1850 points. Should I go blob army? Or should I go tanks? I have a feeling he is going to use deep strikes and transports, but this is just an assumption. 

Any advice on what to use and what to avoid would be great. I have zero experience against CSM. At least against the Nids I knew what I was getting into.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

My friend and I have played many games, guard vs csm's there have been both winners and loosers but the most decisive game was using full, uncomprimising mechanised guard. AT 2000 pts the ig side had 6 leman russ tanks. 2 demolishers, 2 std russ and 2 exterminators for transports. 4 squads of vets in chimeras. 2 with meltaguns and 2 with plasma. Ccs in a chimera with 4 special weapons(plas or melta) and a devildog. You can put up a very solid wall of av14 with that lot. The exterminators de-bus everyone and the pies from the standard russes eliminate standard marines and the demolishers take out the terminators if they have to. The vets can escort the tanks and provide very effective protection and punishment for straying too close. This is not very friendly tayloring like this but it was horrifyingly effective at the time. I know that others will have different ideas but this worked for me.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

This is pretty much what I was thinking of doing. I was probably going to add some banewolves too. I've never used those


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

If your opponent is using DP's then you'll face Lash, but lash has no effect on mechanized units but does effect Infantry, so I'd go with a heavily Meched up list. That said, Lash only has a 24" range and can only target 1 unit at a time, so if you take out the DP's early your list won't be effected all that much.

If facing Transports, etc just take AC, Lascannons, Melta, and even the lesser likely weapons like Plasma and Multi-lasers can perform anti-AV as a secondary role....so Vets in Chimeras, HWT's, Vendettas, Hydras maybe.

Lascannons are also great at taking out Oblits.

I don't know your list at all so I'll guess you have the above units plus a few Russes, maybe a Bane Wolf, Platoons, and some Artillery. Basically just load up on high strength low AP weaponry and you'll have the right tool for the anti-CSM Infantry/DP role....the weapons that are good in the anti-AV role mentioned above are also effective in this role, so you'll have plenty of that in-built redundency that IG are famous for.

If you field a Platoon you could protect your DZ/home objective, and any static firebase units like Russes and Artillery with Infantry...just bear in mind that if he has Lash he can move any Blobs around, so sticking to single Infantry Squads might be preferable. If he DS's into your line you could sacrifice a Squad and tarpit them, and then shoot the crap out of his squad once your cheap squad is dead.

Russes...I use an Executioner in many games and it's a CSM killer, as is Plasma in general. The Demolisher and LRBT are also good choices.

So yea, pretty much a standard Mech IG list really:biggrin: Get your target priority right and you'll do fine...mainly Oblits, DP's and transports first off.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

shaantitus said:


> My friend and I have played many games, guard vs csm's there have been both winners and loosers but the most decisive game was using full, uncomprimising mechanised guard. AT 2000 pts the ig side had 6 leman russ tanks. 2 demolishers, 2 std russ and 2 exterminators for transports. 4 squads of vets in chimeras. 2 with meltaguns and 2 with plasma. Ccs in a chimera with 4 special weapons(plas or melta) and a devildog. You can put up a very solid wall of av14 with that lot. The exterminators de-bus everyone and the pies from the standard russes eliminate standard marines and the demolishers take out the terminators if they have to. The vets can escort the tanks and provide very effective protection and punishment for straying too close. This is not very friendly tayloring like this but it was horrifyingly effective at the time. I know that others will have different ideas but this worked for me.


Not Tailoring at all...looks like a common Mech IG list to me mate:victory:


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Ok thanks. I was wondering what specific units I should target, so thanks again for the information.


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## Black SainT (Apr 13, 2012)

The only problem id see (thou i have 0 experience) is that the csm player may anticipate your heavy meq army and flood his with olbits and melta/multimelta for vehicle killing.

just my opinion


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

watch out for 1000 son flanking with 4 flame throwers, that has gotten me a fair few times fighting CSM when i didnt see it coming.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

If he anticipates my full mech list, then I'm screwed and that's what happens when a much more experienced player faces a n00b lol I'll prolly go either full blob or full mech. I'm just trying to find out everything I can about CSM. What units I need to watch out for, what are my top priorities, and what the weaknesses are. '


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## Black SainT (Apr 13, 2012)

I mean if the CSM player dumps a load of Bezerkers into your guard units your gonna have a big headache, but like u said your building a MEQ army so it shouldnt be too difficult to shoot him up  well unless there's a ridiculous amount of cover between him and you.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Ya I know he likes his berzerkers, so I'm thinking against using blobs. I will definitely have a few vets with meltas in trannies tho. Should I go with two banewolves with crap range but high power? or 2 hellhounds with great range but less power?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> So my previous post (Some IG tank/sniper questions vs Nids) I used your guys' advice and stayed away from using snipers. Instead I used flamers against my Nid buddy. I ended up having over 20 flamers on the field, so to put it simply I roasted those bugs. I won a kill point game, 1850 points, by turn 4.


List tailoring will do that.



> watch out for 1000 son flanking with 4 flame throwers, that has gotten me a fair few times fighting CSM when i didnt see it coming.


1k sons cant use flamers, or flank. You must mean chosen.

As per usual, hobo has good points. Being a CSM player, infantry blobs don't scare me as much as av14 walls and meltavet spam. If youre meched, 1st priority are oblits. If you're infantry blobbing, 1st priority are the lash dps. But you should really work on building an all comers list hats balanced against all army types you will face, instead of building an anti-army list per game you play.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Should I put multimeltas on my tanks or plasma cannons? Cannons have the blast but less AP. They also have higher range. Meltas have less range but way more power. I hit less models tho.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

I went into a game knowing I would be facing only tyranids, so I fielded flamers. He went all outflanking and deep striking because he knew I would sit still and wait for him to come. We both made our lists in secret and then showed each other our lists after they were finished and we were deployed. It isn't like he was bragging about going all MC and so I came with an all anti-MC list. In fact, many of the units I fielded that I chose for anti-MC (in case he used a lot of MCs, which he didn't) ended up being useless and easy kill points for him because he went all swarm. List tailoring is when you show up to a game, see what your buddy has brought to the table, and then try and change your army to counter it instead of just dealing with it after deployment. We both agreed on 1 week to work on an army list that would counter each other's armies. I just happened to counter better than he did. 

Now, back on topic.

I've already started building a full Mech list with about 6 tanks and probably 3 transports with vets and meltas. I was probably just going to use my two command squads as special weapon hogs.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

If you see Plague Marines - always kill them with battlecannons or high S weapons or plasma. Shuts them down well with no FNP or armour (if you destroy the box they were found in first), and they're pretty efficient at killing them instead of massed lasfire. 

I would opt for plas-cans all the way - more useful against MEQ/TEQ than MM's and more versatile - leave heavy tank killing (land raiders and defilers/vindis) for the meltavets, and then killerate the squishy contents with ease.

I haven't played against CSM enough to see lash, but i agree - kill them quick as they can make blast weapons rob you of your major advantage - numbers.
Save for Lash and Defilers/ Plagues, deal with like any other vanilla SM army IMO.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

This is really just a test game for me. I was just told to make an 1850 sized army and to be prepared to face CSM in a week haha I'm gonna have to write on a piece of paper what units to remember to kill first so I don't forget once my first turn comes up. I haven't even heard of some of these units let alone recognize them on the field.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> I went into a game knowing I would be facing only tyranids, so I fielded flamers.


That IS list tailoring



> List tailoring is when you show up to a game, see what your buddy has brought to the table, and then try and change your army to counter it instead of just dealing with it after deployment.


That isnt.

What kind of armor are you packing? How many ord. weapons? You say 6 tanks, but what flavor. 

It seems youre leaning away from an infantry blob, so your numero uno target are the obliterators. They look like terminators covered in super glue and rolled around in a weapon bit box and they come in units of 2-3. They are almost always in cover on your opponents table edge from turn 1 to maximize shooting. Be careful with what you leave open and keep an open mind to reserving high priority targets. If he is using zerkers in a rhino, make sure to delay it. If it reaches you it'll be a headache. 

You shouldnt have too many problems though, mech guard is personally one of my hardest match ups.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

I guess there are different definitions for everyone. He had the same parameters I had, and we both agreed on it. These aren't tourny TAC builds, just home brewed "Come up with the best army you can vs. mine for the next game." TAC army builds require tactics in a game and weekly armies take more strategy in a game. Agree to disagree.

And I was thinking 2 Demos with PC sponsons, and 2 LRBTs with PC sponsons. I'm still working out on if I should take 2 ord. or 2 more tanks. I've only really had luck with basilisks and griffons, but his high saves will make the griffons less effective and the basilisks are always high priority targets. Maybe two medusas with the high attack, but if that is the case I might as well use two more demos that have higher armor with 12 inches less range. 

Nice explanation of what obliterators look like btw haha perfect portrayal


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

There's always the option of filling up your troops slots with as many guardsmen and conscripts as you can, and put in a load of meltaguns for anti tank. It's a casualty high list, but quite funny facing an opponent where you outnumber them 5-1. You'd need a lot of commissars and priests tho. 
Mech list is all well and good, but nobody ever uses guardsmene en-masse, as meat-shields, only so one meltagun can get in a lucky shot...


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

It is very tempting haha I've never went with a full blob build before, so the lure is there.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Just on Berserkers...my cc-built blob has wiped out a squad of berserkers on more than one occasion. 

Sgt w/ PW, BP, MB’s
1 w/ Plasma Guns
9 w/ Lasguns
Commissar w/ PW, BP

this x's 3...plasma whittles down the enemy unit, and then tarpits and kills off the remainder over a couple of turns. The PCS is in a Chimera (or on foot) and has 4 of Melta/Plasma/Flamers so adds its firepower to the mix.

Of course the reverse has also happened, but shit happens so no point worrying too much about it.

I'm not trying to change your mind about going the Mech route...just fyi more than anything:wink:




> And I was thinking 2 Demos with PC sponsons, and 2 LRBTs with PC sponsons. I'm still working out on if I should take 2 ord. or 2 more tanks. I've only really had luck with basilisks and griffons, but his high saves will make the griffons less effective and the basilisks are always high priority targets. Maybe two medusas with the high attack, but if that is the case I might as well use two more demos that have higher armor with 12 inches less range.


I have 26 Russes so I know your suggested builds are a good choice, but I have found that my Artillery outkills them most games, but it's dependent on keeping those weaker AV12 shells firing for as many turns as possible...which means protecting them with Infantry, blobs usually, and especially the direct-fire only ones like Hydras and Medusas, and the non -LOS ones should be utilising that ability and also be in cover.

Those Griffons you have, I assume you have at least 2 and squadron them, which makes them a lot more efficient (Barrage Ordnance) at causing lots of wounds, even on Marines.

Not a fan of the Basilisk and prefer a Manticore for my indirect firing choice...weaker AP but that's usually made up for by the multiple S10 shots ( I roll a 3/4 or 5/6 far more often than 1/2 on my D3)

Demolisher vs Medusa...both have its weaknesses, namely the short range of the Demolisher Cannon and the direct-fire only mode of the Medusa. Simply put I prefer the extra range the Medusa offers because the Demolisher is usually assaulted within 2 Turns due to having to get up close and personal to fire. Plus like I said earlier the Medusa should be protected anyway so the AV14 vs AV12 debate is a moot point.
Actually with the added Sponsons the Demolisher is even easier to assault because it's giving up its mobility if it wants to fire all weapons.

Still, the whole Russ vs Artillery debate usually comes down to personal preference, so there's no clear winner...we all take what we want to use at the end of the day:wink:

Best of luck in your fight against the traitorous scum:biggrin:


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

Two schools of thought here (and if he is a really good CSM player, he is going to go one way or the other):

A) Oblit's, PM's with melta and plasma guns, Termicide squads (3x Terminators w/3x combi melta and 1x chainfist)which deep strike to kill mech, and bezerkers to mop up any infantry, DP w/ either lash or Bolt of Change (lascannon sort of)

B) DP with lash x2, PM's with melta and plasma guns, 1k sons or vannilla CSM's, autocannon Havocs, auto cannon Dreads, Standard Terminators, vindicators, and the ever present Bezerkers for crowd control.

Oh I guess the last choice would be an all nurgle army with DP/ wind of chaos (very dangerous to light infantry). 

Your priorities should always be :

Transports
Obliterators
Daemon Prince
Vindicators
everything else

As a CSM player, I have to tell you that if it were me, you would have a hard time regardless (but I have a bit of a big head). The above holds true though, and if you prepare for those armies and kill things in the order I listed, you stand a good chance of winning.

*Note to all the IG players out there: I don't mean to say IG are bad, they are actually fairly awesome. I just like to think I can always win, and I normally play CSM. Call it a character flaw...


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Ok thanks for the input, guys. I will definitely consider using ordnance over more demolishers for the extra amount of shots, and it is great getting input from a CSM player. Getting info from both sides is always welcome. 

I will probably go mech since it will be my first time using the parking lot build and I am interested in forming new tactics instead of my usual hammer and anvil mix up of artillery, men, and tanks.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Ravner298 said:


> List tailoring will do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that was what i meant, its been a while since i played chaos, he switched to dark eldar.


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