# Emperor Guilleman



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

I was just reading abit of fluff concerning the creation of the black templars and how guilleman branded dorn a rebel for not wanting to split his legion.
now while i consider the codex astartes a necessity after the end of the heresy im quite shocked to see a primarch calling one that was basically there fortifying terra and actually fighting to save it nigh on a traitor.

With the fact that the emperor choose dorn to be the defacto legion to defend terra and horus to be the warmaster of all the forces before his turn, could guilleman coming in practically unscathed and dictating to everyone how best to run the imperium be his final grap for some sort of power that he felt he should have got.

With him being considered the best tactition in the galaxy but not getting the accolade of warmaster, could he have felt abit of resentment and with the ascension of the emperor he would have had pretty much free reign to appoint his ideals on the imperium like he did with ultramar.

maybe by having all eyes on dorn and how he couldnt save the emperor and sanguinius the public opinion of him sort of helped get him out of the way of having any say on how things were gonna work from then on.

I cant imagine russ wanting any sort of power like being a emperor and also cant imagine guilleman calling russ a traitor has he would get his head ripped off. vulkan was probably recovering from some grave injuries from dropsite massacre so not up to much, even though he didnt agree with the codex.
the khan would have seen nothing wrong with splitting up his legion as it would be like a nomad kinda thing anyway and corrax didnt have the marines to go against that idea anyway.

so with dorn being the only one who may have been able to take over as any kind of leader for the imperium could guilleman have had ideas for himself and found calling dorn a rebel a way of seeing him off and getting himself in power as he may have thought he should have had before the heresy.

i think guilleman character could quite warrant this thinking and it would be a good angle for GW to go down as to counterbalance the angle of alpharius being loyal.

so what do you guys think of this angle of thinking?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45852

Try and use the search function before you start new threads. This was started ages ago and recieved a fair bit of debate.

(PS. My views may well have changed significantly since I started that thread!)


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think there have been threads like this brought up before. 

The problem is you need to consider Dorn's state of mind after the heresy. He wasn't thinking in terms of building up the Empire and consolidating it, he was more concerned about vengence and was willing to fight the Traitors to the last man if it meant he could atone for the failure he felt over the Emperor's near fatal wounding. 
His Stubborn refusal to listen to Guilliman's ideas which bear in mind were what the Imperium of the time NEEDED almost lead to him sparking off another civil war. Guilliman recognised this and used a shock tactic to bring Dorn back to his senses. Just my view of it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Ultramarines came out of the Heresy relatively unscathed it's true but they were absolutely mauled holding the Imperium together during the Scouring, losing up to 90% of the Legion in the constant battles- in fact the only Legions who came out of that time period in a worse condition than Guilliman's force were the Salamanders and Raven Guard.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

CotE, if you have not got anything positive to say refrain from posting on my threads. im sick of seeing you on here going against everything anyone does or says unless its of the same opinions as you.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> CotE, if you have not got anything positive to say refrain from posting on my threads. im sick of seeing you on here going against everything anyone does or says unless its of the same opinions as you.


Don't be ridiculous. I was merely informing you of a previous thread that has covered this topic, Something which you should have found before starting this new thread. 

I didn't disagree with you with in any sense of the word, nor was anything I said negative.

And nor do I go against what anyone says if they have a differing opinion to me, you obviously misinterpret my posts. And for the record, if threads had all positive responses, it wouldn't be much of a debate now would it.


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## Abbott (Aug 1, 2009)

Guilleman is tactically awesome, but idiotic on the stance that he cannot see the nessesity of Legions at the time of the scouring. With the Emperor nearly dead and half the legions gone is was obvious that the imperium was going to fall apart but with the legions in place they could have mass recruited until they wer at pre-heresy levels (alot I know, would take agggeeess). The begin the crusade once more. No more of this codex crap 
Might be off topic put I forgot the reason of the thread :grin:


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## Garven Dreis (Oct 26, 2009)

Abbott said:


> Guilleman is tactically awesome, but idiotic on the stance that he cannot see the nessesity of Legions at the time of the scouring. With the Emperor nearly dead and half the legions gone is was obvious that the imperium was going to fall apart but with the legions in place they could have mass recruited until they wer at pre-heresy levels (alot I know, would take agggeeess). The begin the crusade once more. No more of this codex crap
> Might be off topic put I forgot the reason of the thread :grin:


I believed the reason for splitting the Legions was to prevent Imperial Commanders from using Legion-sized armies against the imperium again like how Horus did. I mean, 9 Primarchs turn and then suddenly the Imperium is almost destroyed, atleast with chapters if one or two turn, it's not exactly a giant loss.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> CotE, if you have not got anything positive to say refrain from posting on my threads. im sick of seeing you on here going against everything anyone does or says unless its of the same opinions as you.


Its in his nature. lol. I don't know how old that thread he was talking about is, but I think he was just trying to reming people to look a page or two through threads before writing a new one. Being away from Heresy Online for a while and comming back I understand how sometimes you can write a topic on something written about a while ago.:victory:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Don't be ridiculous. I was merely informing you of a previous thread that has covered this topic, Something which you should have found before starting this new thread.
> 
> I didn't disagree with you with in any sense of the word, nor was anything I said negative.
> 
> And nor do I go against what anyone says if they have a differing opinion to me, you obviously misinterpret my posts. And for the record, if threads had all positive responses, it wouldn't be much of a debate now would it.


Again, don't know how old this thread you were talking about was, but if its old... I got to say there have been many threads that have been "re-dicussed."


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Aha! I see now, Child of the Emperor was the creator of the original thread. Now he's pissed. Give him a break its nothing against you CotE.

Back to discussion, I found many things on this topic very interesting. I think one of the main reasons that Guilleman was not chosen as Warmaster besides the Emperor's closeness to Horus, was the fact that Guilleman isn't really a primarch that other primarchs really got along with. His great successes which were arguably the most triumphet of any other primarchs except for maybe a few and made him very prideful and arogant. Any legions that differed from his legions he has been known to be very disagreeable with. (Word Bearers, Luna Wolves, and Alpha Legion). And those are just the ones that have been mentioned so far. 

I don't really understand how Dorn was taken out of the equation. But the primary reason why Dorn didn't put up much more of a fight with Guilleman besides for his legion not being at full strength was his failure in defending Terra from the hordes of the traitor legions left him a broken man. 

Guilleman's kind of straightforward burst in declaring Dorn a heretic is quite surprising. And also the Emperor's declaration that Guilleman be the Warmaster of the entirety the Imperium's armies is a bit sudden. Some factors that could have contributed to this was that maybe both the Emperor and Guilleman were angry with Dorn. It could be possible that during the battle of Terra there was a instince where the Emperor realized the fear and maybe temptation of his "fear" that was described in "The Lightning Tower." If so the Emperor realized that Dorn was not fit enough to be responsible for being Warmaster.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Aha! I see now, Child of the Emperor was the creator of the original thread. Now he's pissed. Give him a break its nothing against you CotE.


The fact that It was me that created the previous thread on this topic has nothing to do with it. All I did was merely point him in the direction of an older thread which has a lot of discussion about this very topic, I was trying to help and I just get moaned at...!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't really understand how Dorn was taken out of the equation. But the primary reason why Dorn didn't put up much more of a fight with Guilleman besides for his legion not being at full strength was his failure in defending Terra from the hordes of the traitor legions left him a broken man.


Dorn was taken out of the equation because unlike Guilliman he didn't hold the Imperium together, he rather single-mindedly pursued the traitors trying to exact vengeance rather than being a realist and dealing with the future now laid out for the fledgling Imperium.

The Emperor didn't put Guilliman in charge, but since no one else was stepping up he took up the slack.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think it's interesting that so many people have a negative view of Guilliman for his actions during The Scouring. If you think about it what did he personally gain? Nothing he didn't already have. 
If you boil it right down he lost a lot of his personal power by splitting the Legions and his own Legion ended up being severely mauled by his actions. I think rather than any kind of sinister plot Guilliman really was acting in the best interests of Humanity. Remember Guilliman's style was to leave the worlds he conquered much improved rather than just smashing everything in sight. If each of the Primarchs contained an aspect of their father then Guilliman (to my mind at least) seems to embody the Emperor's sence of responsibility. He seems to have been the one looking at situations that humanity found itself in and saying "Now how can I make this better for these people?"
If we take that into account the thought of him looking at the state of the Imperium and thinking "How can I save these people" leads us to the conclusion he obviously came too. 

As for declaring Dorn a traitor think about it Dorn's brand of self destructive vengence may sound cool but the Imperium wasn't in any fit state to support it. If Dorn had been left in command he would have let Alien Raiders and rebellious human worlds shatter everything the Crusade had achieved. As a result the Imperium would have collapsed and Humanity would be doomed. Dorn was a good man but he seems to have been broken by greif and it took the Iron Cage incident to prove to him that his course was ultimatley the wrong one. As I've said before telling a man who hates traitors with a passion that his own actions are verging on treason and heresy and then saving his butt (as guilliman did during the Iron Cage incident) is going to shock him to the core and make him rethink his agenda. 

Which is exactly what Dorn did.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> CotE, if you have not got anything positive to say refrain from posting on my threads. im sick of seeing you on here going against everything anyone does or says unless its of the same opinions as you.


This opinion isn't the same as mine. I'm going to go against it without saying anything positive.

Good day, sir!


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> If you think about it what did he personally gain? Nothing he didn't already have.


It actually wasn't nothing, Guilliman put himself in a position to remake the vast bulk of the Imperium the way he saw fit. While its true that no one was stepping up to lead the remnants of the Imperium, the only person who 'elected' Guilliman to lead was Guilliman himself.



Also, in regards to using the search function, I quote for you all something from the rules:


Heresy Rules said:


> By all means, use the search function. Read old threads. Even dust them off and bring them back, but only if you feel you can contribute something new and beneficial to the discussion.


Before you go and make a thread, use the search function and see if theres a previous topic up about it. We at Heresy have nothing against necro-posting a thread as long as you add something good to it. But who knows, maybe that thread will answer your question(s).


By the way Unknown Primarch, if you have some sort of problem with another member for whatever the reason. You either handle it privately or you bring it to the attention of the staff. Unless of course, you want someone from the staff coming in here and laying it out for you and everyone else.

This applies to every member, Unknown Primarch gets the luxury of the above in red directed at him because he felt the need to try and 'handle' this publicly.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> I think it's interesting that so many people have a negative view of Guilliman for his actions during The Scouring. If you think about it what did he personally gain? Nothing he didn't already have.


I would actually say that he did gain a lot from becoming Warmaster. Firstly, he had control of all the Emperor's armies. This way he was then able to shape the Imperium into his image. I would say he pretty much gained everything


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> CotE, if you have not got anything positive to say refrain from posting on my threads. im sick of seeing you on here going against everything anyone does or says unless its of the same opinions as you.


@ UP: CotE is probably one of the best versed in fluff on this forum. If you don`t like him sharing his opinions, well... tough shit. I happen to agree with almost everything he says as I see that he is usually right. Besides, this is a public forum, everyone is entitled to voice his or her opinion. Here, he was simply pointing out that he had already posted a thread on this topic and giving you advice on not making this mistake. 

@ CotE: *sigh* Some people... :aggressive: ...are just whingers.

On topic: For the record, I missed the original thread. Based on what I know of Guilleman`s character, I think he was just trying to uphold his own vision of what the Imperium should be. Remember that he had a well established empire for years before joining the crusade. In his mind, he no doubt thought he knew best, and would have been pissed that others disagreed. Sibling rivalry, right? I feel for ya, bluey.:laugh:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Look at the descriptions of Ultramar. They suggest that the entire region is as close to a utopia as one can get in the Grimdark of 40k. Industry hasn't destroyed the worlds it is based on, the people are happy (well, as much as you can be, I imagine!), the region is one of the most productive in the Imperium from foodstuffs to manpower, and the Ultramarines recruitment goes from strength to strength- even after being mauled by the 'nids, they are back up to full strength and going great guns.
All in all, I think that, if this is Guilliman's view of how the Imperium should be, Humanity could do a lot worse.

GFP


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Abbott said:


> Guilleman is tactically awesome, but idiotic on the stance that he cannot see the nessesity of Legions at the time of the scouring. With the Emperor nearly dead and half the legions gone is was obvious that the imperium was going to fall apart but with the legions in place they could have mass recruited until they wer at pre-heresy levels (alot I know, would take agggeeess). The begin the crusade once more. No more of this codex crap
> Might be off topic put I forgot the reason of the thread :grin:


yeah i agree. keeping the legions together would have made sense at the time as the dividing lines had already been draw so the chances of more heretic legions was slim. the astartes were the best warriors in the galaxy but the legions were depleted and i can see the sense in spreading the chapters out so they can take control of all areas of the imperium. all systems suffered from some sort of rebellion but i think limiting the chapters to a 1000 warriors just limits the power of the astartes forces and the imperium. maybe like up to 5000 limit and then they would be strong to deal with the enemies of the imperium while not being too large to be exterminated if they turn traitor.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

actually the more and more i read your guys posts the more i can see the sense in guilleman taking charge of things.

i sort of get ideas of how guilleman would act once the heresy was finished, like him not really being bothered by the death of the emperor like maybe the others felt. maybe thats the problem with his outward personality but maybe in private he did have abit of humility, grace and alot of regret. maybe he was able to see past vengeance and the loathing he must have felt for not being able to save the emperor and see the greater picture.

i dont know why but i also have that little bit of a feeling there will be more to it when its written in official fluff.

maybe his arrogance was so great he thought he could create a greater imperium than the emperor envisaged and that side of him that hated the fact he wasnt the warmaster got the better of him and he set his own ideas in motion.

then i say all that and think surely the guy would have been approached to turn traitor if he was susceptable to the whispers of chaos and they had a angle to approach him with that could have got a legion of such size on their side.

so unless GW think of a really good angle, could guilleman really just be the poster boy he is portrayed as or could it go deeper than that?

anyone any ideas on this, however outlandish they may be?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

If Guilleman was supposedly such a great tactician then why did he and his legion get mauled badly when they attacked the alpha legion. (even after supposedly "killing" the primarch Alpharius) It just showed how awesome the alpha legion are even without their primarch.

I personally believe however that Guilleman is the best man for the job as warmaster since:

Ferrus Manus is dead
So is Sanguinius
Jaghatai Khan is missing in the webway
Corax was moping since his legion was practically destroyed and for his methods of rebuiling it
Vulkan had just disappeared at around this time
As well as Lion'El' Johnson (sleeping on the rock of whatever you call it)
Dorn was too busy blaming himself for what happened on Terra
Russ was a born warrior and not a leader.

So this left Guilleman. Who is not dead, missing, sleeping or moping about past events.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> actually the more and more i read your guys posts the more i can see the sense in guilleman taking charge of things.
> 
> i sort of get ideas of how guilleman would act once the heresy was finished, like him not really being bothered by the death of the emperor like maybe the others felt. maybe thats the problem with his outward personality but maybe in private he did have abit of humility, grace and alot of regret. maybe he was able to see past vengeance and the loathing he must have felt for not being able to save the emperor and see the greater picture.
> 
> ...


Hmmm Interesting Ideas. But your version of Guilliman sounds a lot more like Lion.
Guilliman if anything seems to have been the one who actually wanted to create the Empire which the Emperor dreamed of. However I think he was enough of a realist to know that without the Big E such an empire couldn't be. Instead he had to create something out of the ashes, he knew he nor any of his brothers could take the place of the Emperor and with the galaxy becoming a far more hostile place he had to create an ad-hoc sort of Imperium. 
Hey may indeed have mourned the Emperor and the brothers he lost but he seems to have been able to look past his own personal feelings and realise that the Primarchs and Astartes still had a responsibility to the people of the galaxy. There may have been a degree of arrogance in his ideas but considering nobody else was doing anything you have to ask the question "If not him? Who else?"



Stephen_Newman said:


> If Guilleman was supposedly such a great tactician then why did he and his legion get mauled badly when they attacked the alpha legion. (even after supposedly "killing" the primarch Alpharius) It just showed how awesome the alpha legion are even without their primarch.


I hate to bust your bubble but there's absolutely no evidence that such an encounter took place. The Ultramarines themselves don't believe their Primarch ever engaged Alpharius since they have virtually no corroborating evidence and they fully suspect that the account of the event was planted by the Alpha Legion as a piece of misinformation. 

Think about that. A legion claiming their Primarch DIDN'T do something awesome.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Ferrus Manus is dead
> So is Sanguinius
> Jaghatai Khan is missing in the webway
> Corax was moping since his legion was practically destroyed and for his methods of rebuiling it
> ...


As an important note, Corax was not 'moping' due to his legion being nearly wiped out, nor did he do that after he had rebuilt it at the price he paid. Corax was just hard at work at this time, desperate to provide the Emperor and the failing Imperium with forces. He only finished rebulding after the codex had been put into effect.

However despite the hate or dislike tossed at him, look at the others. Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius are dead, Vulkan is missing, the Khan and Russ are leading crusades to undo so much damage, and Dorn is throwing himself headlong into just about any conflict he could. The only one left is Guilliman; who's legion made it out of the Heresy relatively unscathed compared to most of the others and who's works had stabilised fair portions of space during the Great Crusade.

No one was stepping up to keep things together, and no one appointed Guilliman to lead humanity where the Emperor was currently unable to. Its from his self apointing that there is issue, and with his decision that he should be the one to lead, he made such radical changes all of his own accord. He did nothing by the will of the Emperor, instead Guilliman shattered the Emperor's Imperium to one that more suited the styles and beliefs of the lord of the Ultramarines.


Some of what he did was necessary, some of it good; but he acted under his own authority, with no council save his own. In essence, the kingdom and everyone serving in it have been turned over from the king who united everyone under one vision to the distant son who had previously only had a small town to watch over.



Looking back at another post in this thread, I find this one to be fairly hilarious.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't believe Guilliman just turned up and told the High Lords (or whatever was left of the council of Terra after the siege), "OK, chaps; I'm here, you can all nip down to the boozer. I'll give you a call at five and let you know what I've done.'
Now, as there is no fluff that goes into any great detail about this it is all, by necessity personal opinion, but here goes. After what Horus and the other traitor Primarchs have done to the Imperium, the thought that another Primarch, however loyal he may have shown himself to be, can just turn up to Terra and be let loose to do as he pleases, just because he's a Primarch, doesn't sit right. These shell-shocked Humans have just seen a war on an unprecedented scale, led by the brightest Primarch of all. For anyone to assent to Guilliman being allowed the authority to do what he thought needed to be done, there would have been a lot of debate about it by the surviving leadership council.
After this, to say that Guilliman pulled apart the Emperor's Imperium is to, seemingly, miss the point that Horus and his chaps had just finished doing quite a good job of that. Look at the Imperium that Guilliman helped to create during the Great Crusade; from what we've been told all of those worlds stayed loyal to the Emperor and fought wholeheartedly against Chaos. Those worlds were orderly, productive and wanted to be a part of the Imperium, never mind what they had been before. Add to that the fact that the war leader who did this is an organisational genius, gifted in politics, oratory and an intuitive knack for getting people to work for a common goal, and you have the perfect person to try to rebuild a shttered domain. This talk of no authority to do what he did seems to miss out the fact that he did what was needed to keep it all together, rebuild, re-arm and gather the strength needed to scour Chaos from the galaxy. All of this with a suspicious War Council looking over him every step of the way. We can say that Dorn was the Emperor's chosen Praetorian, but that doesn't alter the fact that while he should have been living up to this role and dong what Guilliman stepped in to do, he was off trying to absolve himself of guilt by allowing a large number of indispesable warriors to be killed for absolutely no gain whatsoever. If he'd even managed to destroy the IWs, then fair enough. But he didn't, and in putting himself and his feelings before the needs of the trillions of Humans that needed him, he gave up any right to be the leader.
If ANY other Primarch had stepped in to do what Guilliman did, there would be no complaining at all. In fact, if, say, the Khan had stepped up instead, I can gaurantee that everybody would be complaining the Guilliman, the organisational genius, didn't do it.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> After what Horus and the other traitor Primarchs have done to the Imperium, the thought that another Primarch, however loyal he may have shown himself to be, can just turn up to Terra and be let loose to do as he pleases, just because he's a Primarch, doesn't sit right. These shell-shocked Humans have just seen a war on an unprecedented scale, led by the brightest Primarch of all. For anyone to assent to Guilliman being allowed the authority to do what he thought needed to be done, there would have been a lot of debate about it by the surviving leadership council.


Thats debatable. Guilliman showing up at Terra with the largest and most intact Astartes Legion in existence, can you see the Council of Terra refusing his demands? Especially as you say, seeing what Horus and his Legions had just done.

Thats another way to look at it. 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Look at the Imperium that Guilliman helped to create during the Great Crusade; from what we've been told all of those worlds stayed loyal to the Emperor and fought wholeheartedly against Chaos.


Im not aware we've been told that the systems brought into compliance by the Ultramarines during the Great Crusade were by and the large the systems that remained loyal to the Imperium during the Heresy. Have you got a source for that?



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Those worlds were orderly, productive and wanted to be a part of the Imperium, never mind what they had been before. Add to that the fact that the war leader who did this is an organisational genius, gifted in politics, oratory and an intuitive knack for getting people to work for a common goal, and you have the perfect person to try to rebuild a shttered domain. This talk of no authority to do what he did seems to miss out the fact that he did what was needed to keep it all together, rebuild, re-arm and gather the strength needed to scour Chaos from the galaxy. All of this with a suspicious War Council looking over him every step of the way. We can say that Dorn was the Emperor's chosen Praetorian, but that doesn't alter the fact that while he should have been living up to this role and dong what Guilliman stepped in to do, he was off trying to absolve himself of guilt by allowing a large number of indispesable warriors to be killed for absolutely no gain whatsoever. If he'd even managed to destroy the IWs, then fair enough. But he didn't, and in putting himself and his feelings before the needs of the trillions of Humans that needed him, he gave up any right to be the leader.
> If ANY other Primarch had stepped in to do what Guilliman did, there would be no complaining at all. In fact, if, say, the Khan had stepped up instead, I can gaurantee that everybody would be complaining the Guilliman, the organisational genius, didn't do it.


Very true


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

To be fair, Guilleman is only the most famous Primarch because his chapter (Ultramarines) is the army used in most campaigns by GW, but if you read the books like the HH ones he isn't that great, but his chapter has an eye-catching colour which is why they were chosen for GW's campaigns. All the other Primarchs were better in some way apart from tactics.

Anyway, back on topic.

Guilleman would have been pissed about not being Warmaster or not chosen to defend Terra, and was not called on to aid Horus or many other chapters ever. So he may have felt a bit second-rate.

My personal idea is that Guilleman set Erebus (the chaplain who tricks Horus) into Chaos, as Guilleman wanted to take control and use the Chaos powers. But Erebus took it too far and Horus became the leader of the traitors. Guilleman knew he couldn't take control so he joined the Emperor, which would explain why his legion was relatively unscathed from the Heresy, and when he went to destroy the Alpha legion, he knew of the vision Alpharuis had and wanted to make sure no-one knew. But his plan back fired and Alpharius escaped, so he pretended he killed him. When Fulgrim severly wounded him it was because he evidently wouldn't listen to Guilleman being a Traitor. So all the people who knew of Guilleman's heresy died knowing the secret and the Ultramarines are an innocent Chapter trying to restore their Primarch, even though He would create a new civil war.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> Guilleman would have been pissed about not being Warmaster or not chosen to defend Terra, and was not called on to aid Horus or many other chapters ever. So he may have felt a bit second-rate.
> 
> My personal idea is that Guilleman set Erebus (the chaplain who tricks Horus) into Chaos, as Guilleman wanted to take control and use the Chaos powers. But Erebus took it too far and Horus became the leader of the traitors. Guilleman knew he couldn't take control so he joined the Emperor, which would explain why his legion was relatively unscathed from the Heresy, and when he went to destroy the Alpha legion, he knew of the vision Alpharuis had and wanted to make sure no-one knew. But his plan back fired and Alpharius escaped, so he pretended he killed him. When Fulgrim severly wounded him it was because he evidently wouldn't listen to Guilleman being a Traitor. So all the people who knew of Guilleman's heresy died knowing the secret and the Ultramarines are an innocent Chapter trying to restore their Primarch, even though He would create a new civil war.


Er what? Do you have any evidence for that theory other than a dislike of Guilliman?
Guilliman has never shown any chaotic tendancies in any what whatsoever. On top of that why would Guilliman bother with setting a chaplain from another legion on the path of chaos? Erebus had already sold his soul to the powers of chaos when he became a space marine. For gods sake he was the one who set Lorgar on the path of chaos whispering that while the Emperor might not be worthy of worship there were powers who were not only worthy they demanded worship. 

And just FYI his legion wasn't unscathed after the Heresy. His Legion had just been damaged the least due to it being divided, part of it was marshaling at their Homeworld of Macraage and the other part was supposed to meet up with the Word Bearers Legion at Calth. Why were they supposed to meet the Word Bearers? Because Horus had ordered to in order to attack an Ork Waaugh which never exsisted. The Word Bearers then attacked the Ultramarines and the two forces spent a lot of mauling each other before more Ultramarines arrived and Guilliman forced the Word Bearers under Kor-Phaeron to retreat to the Malestrom. It was only then that the Ultramarines were free to make a break for Terra. The reason the Ultramarines were damaged the least out of all the Legions is because Horus never made a concerted attempt to destroy them. The same as what happened with the Dark Angels who were in even better shape than the Ultramarines! The only reason The Ultramarines were everywhere after the heresy and not the Dark Angels was because the Dark Angels were a smaller legion who buggered off back to Caliban and got embroiled in that whole situation. And the Ultramarines just plain outnumbered everybody else before the Heresy even took place!

And why did Horus set up an ambush for the Ultramarines?

1: Guilliman was a VERY fearsome opponent in mass warfare and Horus didn't want to give the Emperor such a potent weapon in the battle of Terra.
2: The Ultramarines were the largest Legion by a long way. Why allow such a huge army to make it to the most important battle in your campaign when you can slow them down. 

Your theory fails to take into account any of these factors.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

I would like to addd that you didn't qoute my whole reply, so you didn't read it all.

I agree that I didn't take into account some of the factors, but I am still just working my way through the HH books, and that was the way I understood it.

And why are you getting worked up over something as trivial as warhammer 40k anyway, it's just a game....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> but if you read the books like the HH ones he isn't that great


I suppose you've only drawn that conclusion because Guilliman has hardly gained a mention at all so far in the Heresy series. But take into account where he has been mentioned, its usually in praise.



shas'o Thraka said:


> All the other Primarchs were better in some way apart from tactics.


All the Primarchs generally speaking excelled in different areas of warfare or statesmanship. Guilliman's primary talents are noted as being in his organisational abilities (which were a great benefit to the Imperium pre and post Heresy) and his tactical acumen. 

So you can apply the phrase "All the other Primarchs were better in some way" to all the Primarchs, not just Guilliman.



shas'o Thraka said:


> Guilleman would have been pissed about not being Warmaster


Yes, but so were a lot of Primarchs.



shas'o Thraka said:


> or not chosen to defend Terra


Actually, the Imperial Fists being recalled to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace before the Heresy was seen not necessarily as an honour but as a punishment by some (although obviously it wasn't a punishment). Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus in _Fulgrim_ for example mention it in passing, and wonder if Rogal Dorn had done anything to displease the Emperor. So I don't think Guilliman would have been offended in this regard.



shas'o Thraka said:


> and was not called on to aid Horus or many other chapters ever.


?



shas'o Thraka said:


> So he may have felt a bit second-rate.


Actually something which I believe will be elaborated upon in _The First Heretic_ is Guilliman's standing in the Emperor's eyes. Guilliman I think was undoubtedly one of the Emperor's favourites, and the only reason he may have felt slighted is because he wasn't chosen as Warmaster. But then again, in _Horus Rising_ its actually noted that Guilliman accepted Horus' appointment to Warmaster as the correct and true choice.



shas'o Thraka said:


> My personal idea is that Guilleman set Erebus (the chaplain who tricks Horus) into Chaos, as Guilleman wanted to take control and use the Chaos powers.


Apart from Guilliman being completely unaware of the Chaos Powers.

And then theres the fact that Erebus had been a Chaos worshipper before Lorgar and the Word Bearers were ever incorporated into the Imperium. And it also wouldn't explain the Word Bearers unrivalled hatred for the Ultramarines Post-Heresy.



shas'o Thraka said:


> But Erebus took it too far and Horus became the leader of the traitors.


Aside from Magnus the Red, Horus was the first and most obvious choice as the herald of Chaos.



shas'o Thraka said:


> which would explain why his legion was relatively unscathed from the Heresy


Thats more down to the failure of the Word Bearers and the isolated position of the Ultramarines Legion than anything.



shas'o Thraka said:


> and when he went to destroy the Alpha legion, he knew of the vision Alpharuis had and wanted to make sure no-one knew.


And how would Guilliman have found out about the Acuity? 



shas'o Thraka said:


> But his plan back fired and Alpharius escaped, so he pretended he killed him.


The only source of evidence for the Battle of Eskrador is a first hand account from an Ultramarines Captain discovered by Inquisitor Kravin. And that claims that Alpharius was killed. But even so, it is now widely regarded that Kravin was somehow connected with the Cult of the Hydra and that the whole Kravin affair (which is incidently where the majority of the Imperium's records and knowledge comes from in regards to the Alpha Legion) was just an Alpha Legion ploy to plant misinformation.



shas'o Thraka said:


> When Fulgrim severly wounded him it was because he evidently wouldn't listen to Guilleman being a Traitor.


Huh?



shas'o Thraka said:


> And why are you getting worked up over something as trivial as warhammer 40k anyway, it's just a game....


No one is getting worked up, Forums are about debate. Were debating


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

COTE, I will say it again, I am still relatively new to the hobby and some of the infomation I know may be wrong, but this is what I can make of it.

Also the parts about Guilleman talking to Erebus etc. I made those up as an *IDEA* for what *COULD* have happened. Doesn't mean it's true, doesn't mean it's false.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> COTE, I will say it again, I am still relatively new to the hobby and some of the infomation I know may be wrong, but this is what I can make of it.
> 
> Also the parts about Guilleman talking to Erebus etc. I made those up as an *IDEA* for what *COULD* have happened. Doesn't mean it's true, doesn't mean it's false.


Then may i direct you to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page before you enter into a debate. Otherwise your ideas are going to look pretty ridiculous.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You can't take it personally shas'o, your new to the hobby and the fact that your willing to throw out ideas and debate is admirable but for some of us 40K background is what we revel in and have submerged ourselves in for years so when/if we disagree with you it's not done out of spite (after all it's only Baltar who we do that to j/k :biggrin

EDIT: don't take everything you read on Lexicanum as fact- it's like an even more poorly edited version of Wikipedia, I could quite easily add to the entry about the Emperor that he was renowned for carrying a sword shaped like a Thunderbolt and make up some BS reference. It's believable but also a load of bollocks, you've been cautioned.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> EDIT: don't take everything you read on Lexicanum as fact- it's like an even more poorly edited version of Wikipedia, I could quite easily add to the entry about the Emperor that he was renowned for carrying a sword shaped like a Thunderbolt and make up some BS reference. It's believable but also a load of bollocks, you've been cautioned.


On the other hand it's a good place to get some good general knowledge on the background. Which is something you really want to have before forming anymore opinions and displaying them in this Shark Pool.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> Also the parts about Guilleman talking to Erebus etc. I made those up as an *IDEA* for what *COULD* have happened. Doesn't mean it's true, doesn't mean it's false.


Of course, and I know you said so - But I was merely pointing out evidence which suggests the contrary. Don't be offended if people don't agree with your speculation, nothing is ever personal


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> After what Horus and the other traitor Primarchs have done to the Imperium, the thought that another Primarch, however loyal he may have shown himself to be, can just turn up to Terra and be let loose to do as he pleases, just because he's a Primarch, doesn't sit right.
> GFP


I agree, it was a forceful one



shas'o Thraka said:


> My personal idea is that Guilleman set Erebus (the chaplain who tricks Horus) into Chaos, as Guilleman wanted to take control and use the Chaos powers. But Erebus took it too far and Horus became the leader of the traitors. Guilleman knew he couldn't take control so he joined the Emperor, which would explain why his legion was relatively unscathed from the Heresy, and when he went to destroy the Alpha legion, he knew of the vision Alpharuis had and wanted to make sure no-one knew.


I think in someways Guilleman did somehow make himself tactically better looking primarch(as well as conquering the Imperium) by making himself hateful to other competing legions and making them a way that being opposite made them a lesser effective than they could have been. But as the evidence suggests not to the extent of going to Chaos. I'm also speculating as to whether he was a fence watcher kind of like the Dark Angels(no evidence yet mind you just speculation). I could see Lion El Johnson and Guilleman in a playground looking at their "inferior" brothers duken it out. Just talking about how stupid and pathetic they are. Lets go get some lemonade. After we can divide the Imperium in half like the cold war in the real world. Lion El Johnson falls asleep in the rock. Oh well... I guess its all mine! HAHAHA:laugh:


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree, it was a forceful one
> 
> 
> 
> I think in someways Guilleman did somehow make himself tactically better looking primarch(as well as conquering the Imperium) by making himself hateful to other competing legions and making them a way that being opposite made them a lesser effective than they could have been. But as the evidence suggests not to the extent of going to Chaos. I'm also speculating as to whether he was a fence watcher kind of like the Dark Angels(no evidence yet mind you just speculation). I could see Lion El Johnson and Guilleman in a playground looking at their "inferior" brothers duken it out. Just talking about how stupid and pathetic they are. Lets go get some *lemonade*. After we can divide the Imperium in half like the cold war in the real world. Lion El Johnson falls asleep in the rock. Oh well... I guess its all mine! HAHAHA:laugh:


By any chance would this be super hyper-epic lemonade?:biggrin:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

No fluff that I have ever read has ever painted Guilliman as anything other than loyal to the Emepror, the Imperium and to Horus when he was loyal. Read IA Ultramarines; he does what he does because of how it helps others. And they love him for it. Every world he helped to conquer was loyal all the way through the Heresy.
He wasn't at the Siege because Lorgar's chaps were busy trying to annihalate him and his Legion on Calth. He destroyed most of their fleet, but still lost the match because Guilliman can really organise. By the time that's all over so is the Siege of Terra.
Now, Guilliman gets to Terra and finds out just what he's missed. He also finds the Imperium in ruins and no-one able to do anything about it. For several reasons.
1 Those Legions who fought on Terra are exhausted and need to br re-plenished and re-armed.
2 Dorn is in a monumental rage. He then absents himself and his Legion to chase after the traitors, culminating in the Iron Cage.
3 The army/navy are scattered and broken. They are also utterly demoralised.
4 Everyone in charge is just doing what they can do about their bit of the problem. It's too big and too much for even the best and brightest to manage.

The War Council then see Guilliman volounteering to help. Hell, he might have spent months on the outside, offering help and support as the new High Lords tried to get everything back on track. All of this time he's pre-empting what they might need to do because that's his gift. And so, this vision that folk seem to have of Roboute the Conqueror storming the ruins of the Emperor's Palace and plonking himself down in front of the Imperium's main server, is left behind. Roboute helps and guides and gets the networks talking again. Gradually, the monumentally overstretched humans find that they can trust this monstrous god of war; eventually they see that, rather than keeping him on the outer it makes more sense to just put him in charge.
What does he now do? He controls the strongest Legion left in the ashes. With the blessings of the High Lords, he will now control the remnants of the Army and Navy. He could make all bow before him in a new Great Crusade. Instead, he splits this huge body of Astartes up into smaller and smaller groups so that they can be in all places at once. He sends detatchments of the Army and Navy with them, fighting the fires that need fighting so as to keep the Emperor's dream alive. He sees a time when a Legion of Astartes is too blunt an instrument to deal with the wars of the future; they are also not trusted by anyone, not like they once were. But he also sees the need for these Chapters to be able to come together when needed, so that the might of the old days isn't lost forever.
And then, one day, it's done. It's all back on track. And Roboute Guilliman walks away, back to a Legion of 250,000 that is now a Chapter of 1,000. And for those who say he supplanted the Emperor's vision with his own? So what. As soon as Guilliman walks away whatever he has put in place will be changed by those who come after him. This is the way of all changes of leadership.


GFP


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> He wasn't at the Siege because Lorgar's chaps were busy trying to annihalate him and his Legion on Calth. He destroyed most of their fleet, but still lost the match because Guilliman can really organise.


Do you think it was necessary for Guilleman to come to Terra at the head of 250,000 Ultramarines in full strength in such a desperate battle? What I'm getting at, is that isn't kind of weird that Guilleman who was a good tactician and also strategist spent all that time rebuilding everything when there was a desperate battle going on(Basically the deciding battle of the Imperium and humanity)? Who knows, maybe being a strategist didn't really help Terra... which it eventually didn't but I'l tell you what... it did help him.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Why didn't he send in 50,000 Ultramarines to tie them up until the 200,000 could come along? He might be sacrificing them but hopefully it would have given them more time to muster and destroy the Heretics? Strategist eh.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Do you think it was necessary for Guilleman to come to Terra at the head of 250,000 Ultramarines in full strength in such a desperate battle? What I'm getting at, is that isn't kind of weird that Guilleman who was a good tactician and also strategist spent all that time rebuilding everything when there was a desperate battle going on(Basically the deciding battle of the Imperium and humanity)? Who knows, maybe being a strategist didn't really help Terra... which it eventually didn't but I'l tell you what... it did help him.


Er I think you're missing something. Guilliman was trapped at Calth with virtually no way of knowing what was going on in the greater Galaxy. As soon as he finished bashing the Word Bearers he didn't Repair and Re-arm he got as many astartes together as he could and hauled ass to Terra. 

And if you think about it he would have wanted to gather as much of his legion too him as quickly as possible. He would have no idea of the tactical situation on Terra, hell he probably didn't even know how many legions he would be facing. Guilliman was not Leman Russ who would charge in against all the odds, Hell Russ DID that. It's also likely that Guilliman made contact with Lion and Russ and formed a Battle Plan with them For what was in effect a counter assault on Terra.
In that type of situation I would want as many marines as i could on my side, Guilliman probably knew that just being there wasn't enough he was going to have to get there and be capable of making a huge difference. He knew his was the largest Legion and feeding them into the meat grinder bit by bit would be no help to anybody. 

Personally I can see the battle plan being something along the lines of Leman making the initial assault and bringing the enemy to battle so that Lion can come in behind him and force the enemy to divert a significant part of their strength from the palace in order to deal with them. Then Guilliman Comes in for the hammer blow. If we take the estimation of numbers into effect the Traitors might be able to fight the Angels and the Wolves and maintain the siege but they certainly couldn't with 200'000 Ultramarines crawling up their backsides. They would be forced to break off the siege which in turn would give the Remnants of the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars the chance to launch their own counter attacks. Thus giving the Emperor more breathing room to fight back. 

Which is exactly what Horus wouldn't want.

You also have to take into account that if this scenario took place Horus would be outnumbered.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Er I think you're missing something. Guilliman was trapped at Calth with virtually no way of knowing what was going on in the greater Galaxy. As soon as he finished bashing the Word Bearers he didn't Repair and Re-arm he got as many astartes together as he could and hauled ass to Terra.


Well if he arrived at full strength than I assume after being beat up a little they lost enough marines to make the reconstruction last pretty long for replacements. So I wouldn't really say he "hauled ass to Terra."



> And if you think about it he would have wanted to gather as much of his legion too him as quickly as possible. He would have no idea of the tactical situation on Terra, hell he probably didn't even know how many legions he would be facing. Guilliman was not Leman Russ who would charge in against all the odds, Hell Russ DID that. It's also likely that Guilliman made contact with Lion and Russ and formed a Battle Plan with them For what was in effect a counter assault on Terra.


As we find out that was actually a mistake on his part. The Imperium would have been destroyed had Horus not taken off his ships shields. The Imperium had won and it was no thanks to the Ultramarines. If the emperor had not been mauled so badly I'm pretty sure he would have had words with Guilleman as he was probably shitting his pants while his whole Imperial Terra was being cast to an oblivion as the Ultramarines are gaining full strength.



> In that type of situation I would want as many marines as i could on my side, Guilliman probably knew that just being there wasn't enough he was going to have to get there and be capable of making a huge difference. He knew his was the largest Legion and feeding them into the meat grinder bit by bit would be no help to anybody.


I would say even having just 50-100 thousand Marines is greatly a huge difference. Thats considering that they were that badly mauled. Guilliman would have had full advantage of the situation considering his fleet would have been able to flank Horus' and cut his support. Horus would have had to use up a legion or two to quell with Guilleman and thus weaken his strength against the walls. In this type of situation, time is a factor, not a critical well thought time consuming plan. 



> Personally I can see the battle plan being something along the lines of Leman making the initial assault and bringing the enemy to battle so that Lion can come in behind him and force the enemy to divert a significant part of their strength from the palace in order to deal with them. Then Guilliman Comes in for the hammer blow. If we take the estimation of numbers into effect the Traitors might be able to fight the Angels and the Wolves and maintain the siege but they certainly couldn't with 200'000 Ultramarines crawling up their backsides. They would be forced to break off the siege which in turn would give the Remnants of the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars the chance to launch their own counter attacks. Thus giving the Emperor more breathing room to fight back.


Yep good plan, look how fast we thought about that, its not really a specific battle field map laid out plan. And yet still apparently it was enough to do that and get his strength to full. Then also it didn't matter, he failed to reach Terra and save the Emperor from his fate. Now he's just a corpse on a golden toilet. 



> Which is exactly what Horus wouldn't want.


Horus wouldn't have wanted any of the remaining loyal legions getting there. 
Especially since both the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines were one of the best legions.



> You also have to take into account that if this scenario took place Horus would be outnumbered.


Probably not as the Night Lords and Alpha Legion would have been looking for them. Also, you have to recollect that fully half the legions had been split down the middle. Half and Half with three of the loyal legions completely out of it because of the "Drop Site Masacre."


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Iron Hands weren't out of it, they only lost their Primarch and a handful of Veteran Companies- the Legion's main strength was unaffected.

The Ultramarines did indeed haul arse to Terra, considering how much further away from Terra they were than the Space Wolves or Dark Angels they still managed to arrive within a day or 2 of those Legions- in fact that's commonly held to be the reason Horus lowered his shields as the Siege was in it's 55th day and the power of 3 more loyalist legions would have been unleashed on him if he waited even a day longer. What still bemuses me is the fact that the Emperor teleported aboard considering he also knew about the approaching Legions, despite Horus' efforts to blind him to their presence- if He'd waited he would likely have survived alongside Sanguinius.

We know Guilliman brought the Ultramarines to terra but we don't know if he brought all the surviving marines- that info just isn't available currently, it's likely he did ut it's also plausible that he spread some of his Legion to begin the task of ousting Traitors from vital systems.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Well if he arrived at full strength than I assume after being beat up a little they lost enough marines to make the reconstruction last pretty long for replacements. So I wouldn't really say he "hauled ass to Terra."


Re-arming as soon as possible or not, warp travel had been made nearly impossible for the loyalists at this point. It could be that the chaos gods held up the loyalist reinforcements for a time, and then after seeing that their needs would be met no matter what, let them go. In the end the Emperor was mauled, his empire was torn apart, more than half his sons were gone, and his crusade had been brought to its knees. Oh yeah, lets not forget that now chaos had legions of mortal warriors who would fight what remained of the Imperium to the bitter end and be a source of fuel for chaos.

I can haul ass from the bottom of a river to the top, doesn't matter how hard I try, if the current is against me it will always take longer. This was no different during the Heresy.



ckcrawford said:


> As we find out that was actually a mistake on his part. The Imperium would have been destroyed had Horus not taken off his ships shields. The Imperium had won and it was no thanks to the Ultramarines. If the emperor had not been mauled so badly I'm pretty sure he would have had words with Guilleman as he was probably shitting his pants while his whole Imperial Terra was being cast to an oblivion as the Ultramarines are gaining full strength.


Actually, it was all because of the arrival of the Wolves, Angels, and Ultramarines that the Imperium won the day. Had they not arrived, Horus (or whoever lowered the shields) would not have been inclined to lower the shields to bait the Emperor and deal the killing blow before it was to late.

The arrival of loyalist reinforcements was the only thing that hastened the moves made by the traitor forces. So were it not for the Ultramarines showing up when they did, Dorn, Khan, and the Emperor would likely be as dead as Sanguinius. The palace was on the verge of being breached, at that point the loyalists were fighting a losing battle with no where left to go. Guilliman, the Lion, and Russ made all the difference just by showing up.



ckcrawford said:


> I would say even having just 50-100 thousand Marines is greatly a huge difference. Thats considering that they were that badly mauled. Guilliman would have had full advantage of the situation considering his fleet would have been able to flank Horus' and cut his support. Horus would have had to use up a legion or two to quell with Guilleman and thus weaken his strength against the walls. In this type of situation, time is a factor, not a critical well thought time consuming plan.


First off, use a legion or two to counter the Ultramarines? Well the Emperor's Children certainly weren't doing anything usefull beyond attacking the dwellings of normal people. So theres a legion that could be sent to oppose for some period of time.

Next, flank the traitors? Sorry but I really don't think that would have been possible. When entering a system, you enter at the edge of it, because coming in close to worlds risks you coming in to close to a gravity well of a planet or worse. (And ships in 40k have been noted to be defenseless for moments or minutes after exiting the warp. Enter a gravity well with little control of the ship may be enough to doom it.)

That means the traitors had time to react, move a portion of their fleet to intercept. Traitor scanners did pick the loyalist reinforcements at the edge of the system after all; they just did not have the fleet to engage them all.



ckcrawford said:


> Yep good plan, look how fast we thought about that, its not really a specific battle field map laid out plan. And yet still apparently it was enough to do that and get his strength to full. Then also it didn't matter, he failed to reach Terra and save the Emperor from his fate. Now he's just a corpse on a golden toilet.


Thats something that Guilliman could not really help; the loyalists needed reinforcements that could actually do something, they needed everyone in order to force the hand of the traitors. Warp storms were making travel nigh impossible for the loyalists, portions of their fleets were cut off, and Horus had tasked portions of some of the traitors with holding up the loyalist reinforcements.

Time and a slew of obstacles wer against Guilliman and the other loyalists racing to Terra to stop the warmaster. 




ckcrawford said:


> Horus wouldn't have wanted any of the remaining loyal legions getting there.
> Especially since both the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines were one of the best legions.


Which is why he had the Imperial Fists fleet ambushed by the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines attacked by the Word Bearers (and parts of the Alpha Legion if I remember correctly.) Horus diverted elements of some of his forces to delay the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Imperial Fist fleet. He needed them cut off, because despite them not being there taking Terra was not something he was able to do easily. Imagine how much harder it would have been if even one of those legions was present?



ckcrawford said:


> Probably not as the Night Lords and Alpha Legion would have been looking for them. Also, you have to recollect that fully half the legions had been split down the middle. Half and Half with three of the loyal legions completely out of it because of the "Drop Site Masacre."


Thats good to remember, but keep in mind that most of the traitor legions were not at full strength.

The Iron Warriors had about half their forces away from Terra fighting the Imperial Fists fleet that were trying to return to Terra, unable to because of the trouble in the warp.

The Thousand Sons were horribly mauled after Prospero, so theres no need to even go there.

The Word Bearers had as much as half their legion fighting the Ultramarines to hold them up. Then (memory serving me right) the Alpha Legion were in the same boat, as the Ultramarines were a big legion.

Thanks to Istvaan III and the Massacre, the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Sons of Horus were not at full strength when they attacked Terra.


Of the nine traitor legions, a third of them were at half strength, one of them was at a tenth, and a further four were below full but above half. That left a whopping one at full strength.

When they attacked Terra, it was against what had to be less than half the Imperial Fists, and what remained of the Blood Angels and White Scars. The reinforcements included most of the Ultramarines, half the Dark Angels, about half the Space Wolves (assuming the Thousand Sons exacted a quarter losses at Prospero and they took a further quarter losses getting to Terra given their tactics), the Imperial Fists fleet, and the Iron Hands fleet.


At the onset of the siege, it was something akin to six legions fighting less than three, the reinforcements brought the weight of four legions (at least) on the backs of the traitors with a fleet able to oppose the one over Terra.


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## shmabadu (Oct 2, 2009)

What is the source material for much of this debate? I know some is covered in the SM Codex, but are there any novels written that discuss these events? Seems like an interesting topic and I'd like to learn more.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Alot of it is from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions art/fluff book but the Index Astartes articles (which were originally printed in White Dwarf) are also jammed packed with info.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

darkreever said:


> At the onset of the siege, it was something akin to six legions fighting less than three, the reinforcements brought the weight of four legions (at least) on the backs of the traitors with a fleet able to oppose the one over Terra.


Are we sure about those numbers of Loyalists? I'm not sure about Iron hands but I'm fairly certain that the Dark angels may have more than half the Legion with them. I know it's stated in some older fluff that half the legion rebelled but at the present moment the Angels seem to have sent only a company or so back to Caliban. The numbers of Fallen present on Caliban seem to have come from Luther and friends training up new recruits.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

With the constant build up of the forces under Luther, and the equally consistent loss of life amongst the Lion's forces it's plausible that by the close of the Heresy Luthor's marines accounted for half of the DA's numbers.

Just a reminder the Imperial Fists fleet ambushed by the IW did actually make it back to Terra but only just ahead of Horus' forces, so whilst none of the Loyalist Legions defending Terra were at full strength they weren't that decimated either.
Also the approaching Space Wolves would have been seriously under-strength, with the mauling they took at Propero plus the beating they sustained at the hands of the Alpha Legion en-route they were fairly screwed.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Ultramarines did indeed haul arse to Terra, considering how much further away from Terra they were than the Space Wolves or Dark Angels they still managed to arrive within a day or 2 of those Legions- in fact that's commonly held to be the reason Horus lowered his shields as the Siege was in it's 55th day and the power of 3 more loyalist legions would have been unleashed on him if he waited even a day longer. What still bemuses me is the fact that the Emperor teleported aboard considering he also knew about the approaching Legions, despite Horus' efforts to blind him to their presence- if He'd waited he would likely have survived alongside Sanguinius.


Ah I think i know the reasoning behind this one. Just as this was Horus chance to win by killing the Emperor the Emperor knew that this was his chance to end the war by killing Horus. He knew that if Horus disengaged (which he could have done) and legged it the war could drag on for centuries before they got another crack at each other. 

Just think about that for a second. Horus unleashed on the Imperium with possibly centuries to fight is campaigns. It doesn't really bear thinking about. 

Also the Emperors pre-cognisense was on the frizt and he couldn't see anything. So it's entirely likely that he didn't know the Loyalists were incoming. Tactically the final duel was a viable tactical move from both perspectives the Loyalist and Traitor legions were in essence cults of personality without the head the body will die, (looks like the Alpha Legion is right again... bloody Alpha Legion). The only problem was nobody reckoned on both of them getting killed.



Baron Spikey said:


> With the constant build up of the forces under Luther, and the equally consistent loss of life amongst the Lion's forces it's plausible that by the close of the Heresy Luthor's marines accounted for half of the DA's numbers.


Yeh that's a reasonable assumption.



Baron Spikey said:


> Also the approaching Space Wolves would have been seriously under-strength, with the mauling they took at Propero plus the beating they sustained at the hands of the Alpha Legion en-route they were fairly screwed.


Oh those wacky wacky space Wolves!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

> 'Malcador, the time is upon us. Horus thinks me blinded by his psychics but I am more powerful than he can possibly imagine. The Space Wolves have had help from an unexpected quarter and, having turned the tables on their pursuers, are now bound for Earth. The Ultramarines have likewise triumphed and also head this way, as does the fleet of the Dark Angels.'


- Horus Heresy: Collected Visions

That's where I got my info from


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really apologise for this. I do, honest.

GUILLIMAN IS NOT, NOR EVER HAS BEEN REPRESENTED AS, A TRAITOR! There is no way to mould the fluff to make this the case. Maybe in the future there will be. Until then, this isn't even a debate. Guilliman did the best he could for the people of the Imperium, that is his character and the way he acted at all times.

GFP


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really apologise for this. I do, honest.
> 
> GUILLIMAN IS NOT, NOR EVER HAS BEEN REPRESENTED AS, A TRAITOR! There is no way to mould the fluff to make this the case. Maybe in the future there will be. Until then, this isn't even a debate. Guilliman did the best he could for the people of the Imperium, that is his character and the way he acted at all times.
> 
> GFP


I don't think anyone one this thread thinks hes a traitor. I think that a few people might think that he purposely arrived on Terra at full strength so that he could scare the other legions and armies to become Warmaster. Whether he did or not is debatable as there is no hardcore sources yet to reveal why it did take so long for him so long to reach Terra. As with the Dark Angels, there is also no hard core sources to reveal why they didn't reach Terra. There is a probability that they encountered the Night Lords but then there is also speculation that he might have been on the side lines watching to see who won from Angels of Darkness which is also not a hard core source and very debatable. 

The biggest and maybe probability that the Ultramarines did not arrive on Terra in time was as Darkreaver mentioned. That the warp storms had probably messed their navigation to Terra, however... no real hard core source of that either. 

On the other hand,

This was the chance that Guilleman had to use his strength and take control of the Imperium. Whether you like the hardcore Imperium that is present today with the genocidal Inquisition, the split between the legions (making the Astartes power less powerful... which it did, as the Imperium could never be as strong as it was during the Great Crusade ever again with this "codex"), the fanatical praising of the emperor, is really left for another discussion. As it is also a debatable argument. 

The fact is that it still confuses to people to recognize how intact the Ultramarines legion was left after the Heresy. How could this not be a debate considering every other legion was basically left destroyed and in much need of many years of rebuilding? I could see it now... Guilleman, "Uhhhh, sorry guys... uhhhh we got lost in space... and a part of the Word Bearers force they prevented us from comming.... and we needed to rebuild... and Horus told us to go somewhere... and..... did I mention we got lost in space? Oh by the way I'm Warmaster now." Meanwhile, a bunch of Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scares have blood all over their armour with missing limbs, scars, and a bunch of dead bodies laying mangled, chopped up, and blown up all over the place, the Emperor is taken away to a golden toilet going..... "Uhhhh....ouch.... ahhhhh... it fucken hurts..... ahhhh.... Guilleman... WTF.... ahhh NOW I TO SIT ON A GOLDEN TOILET FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE! Guilleman... i.... hate.... you... uhhhh." Meanwhile, Dorn goes, "Oh okay, that sounds reasonable, we almost lost but whateva." Yep... don't think so.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> What still bemuses me is the fact that the Emperor teleported aboard considering he also knew about the approaching Legions, despite Horus' efforts to blind him to their presence- if He'd waited he would likely have survived alongside Sanguinius.


thats one of the biggest questions of the Heresy if you ask me. i just cant fathom why he did that seeing as he was stuck on the throne anyway and weither or not he knew of the approaching forces it would have not been the best place to confront horus.

he must have known the power that was surrounding the vengeful spirit and to put himself, 2 primarch and a number of other forces at risk in this way just doesnt add up.

plus the fact he was gonna have to sacrifice malcador to get off the throne its gonna have to be a goddamn good enough reason when they get to that part of the HH novels or it will seem all just abit weak on the fluff side of things.

anyone like to speculate?


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> thats one of the biggest questions of the Heresy if you ask me. i just cant fathom why he did that seeing as he was stuck on the throne anyway and weither or not he knew of the approaching forces it would have not been the best place to confront horus.
> 
> he must have known the power that was surrounding the vengeful spirit and to put himself, 2 primarch and a number of other forces at risk in this way just doesnt add up.
> 
> ...


If the Emperor had waited for the other legions he may have survived like you say. But i think he couldn't risk Horus escaping. He would probably have known that he would be the only one capable of killing Horus and ending the Heresy. He also may have beleived that Horus was being manipulated by Chaos (which he was) and wanted to save his favoured son.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeh personally i think the emperor saw all the possible paths and tried his best to get a good result allround but knew in his heart that the grim darkness of 40k was inevitable and let this course of action play out to at least save mankind from extinction. maybe he wanted to see horus one last time and try and save him and finally confront chaos or he may have just known he would have to obliterate horus and his ascension to the throne was his form of penence for the course he had set mankind on.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Well, if you've read the Collected Visions artbook, it states that in their duel, when the Emperor finally manages to muster the will to truly fight his beloved son, his strike gravely wounded Horus so much so that the vast power and influence the Chaos Gods were cast out of Horus. At that moment, Horus wept, realizing for the first time, the full extent of what he had done, and pleaded for the Emperor to kill him before the Chaos Gods resumed their hold over him. And the Emperor slew him. So if you think about it, the Emperor did save Horus's soul, killing him as Horus, Son of the Emperor rather than dying as Horus, Warmaster of Chaos.

Also, I don't believe that the Emperor could completely see how the final battle would play out. In every version of the duel between the Emperor and Horus, the Emperor held back at the beginning, reluctant to kill his son and hoping to reason with him. Only when Horus struck down the lone Custodes/Imperial Fist Terminator/Loyalist Guardsmen, did the Emperor realize just how far Horus had fallen. If he knew that Horus couldn't be saved from the started, he would have steeled himself before the battle and slew Horus with all his might at the beginning.

So I don't believe he accepted that his mortal wounding and internment in the Golden Throne as penance for his mistakes.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i understand what your saying but the night haunter comes to mind when you say all that. i know horus was his favourite but curze was still a son of his and he knew how troubled he was and hell id go so far as to say that he saw exactly the visions curze was having when he soothed his fit and maybe got his first glimpse of the heresy future if he didnt know already. i think to myself why did he quite happily send a assassin to kill curze but dither for so long in killing horus..... just a thought.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Actually, Curze was killed after the end of the HH. Also, Horus was the favorite son of the Emperor. Even when they met aboard Horus's flagship, despite what Horus had done, the Emperor could not bring himself to fight at his full might, because he loved Horus.

It's said that after the Emperor delivered that first blow and Horus was himself again, pleading for death, the Emperor steeled himself to kill his beloved son, casting out his heart forever before he was able to kill him.

That's how he was able to order Curze's execution without hesitation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually, Curze was killed after the end of the HH. Also, Horus was the favorite son of the Emperor. Even when they met aboard Horus's flagship, despite what Horus had done, the Emperor could not bring himself to fight at his full might, because he loved Horus.
> 
> It's said that after the Emperor delivered that first blow and Horus was himself again, pleading for death, the Emperor steeled himself to kill his beloved son, casting out his heart forever before he was able to kill him.
> 
> That's how he was able to order Curze's execution without hesitation.


I believe what _Unknown Primarch_ was saying though, was that Curze was apparently the target of several Imperial assassins long before the Heresy even began, he may have been killed after the Heresy - but assassins were sent to terminate him before Horus' rebellion became public. Your explanation does not account for this.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I like to think that it was a calculated gamble by both sides. Horus couldn't risk that the incoming reinforcements from the Dark Angels and Space Wolves would get there before his forces broke through to the Emperor's inner sanctum and the Emperor couldn't risk that Horus's forces would break into the inner sanctum before the reinforcements had arrived. Horus gambled that the Emperor would take the bait and the Emperor gambled that he could beat Horus.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I believe what _Unknown Primarch_ was saying though, was that Curze was apparently the target of several Imperial assassins long before the Heresy even began, he may have been killed after the Heresy - but assassins were sent to terminate him before Horus' rebellion became public. Your explanation does not account for this.


thx cote, thats exactly what i was getting at. still like i was saying, if he can quite happily send a assassin to kill one of his sons then why cant he kill one himself for the sake of the galaxy and the future of the imperium. if he didnt let himself get owned by horus then the imperium could have been such a better place but then that still falls down the road of the emperor knowing exactly what he was doing in my opinion. i think he knew the best way for the survival of humanity was for them to live in a galaxy were our most base of instincts would keep us alive in a cutthroat galaxy and thats to be at constant war. what doesnt kill you makes you stronger comes to mind.


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