# Why did Magnus need to... Outcast Dead Spoilers



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I know there are a lot of negative voices on Heresy Online about the book "The Outcast Dead", but something about the sequence of events just REALLY confused me, especially since all the events are from a Terra-centric progressive timeline.



The book starts out with everyone in shock about the declaration that the Warmaster is a traitor, but thankfully Lord Dorn's fleet is en-route to squash the nasty bugger. Messages are flying fast and furious from points throughout the Imperium into the Silent Tower and the Astropathic Choir trying to find out who's loyal and not. OK, got that, Isstvan III is done, and a few months(?) to go before the big Isstvan V show-down.

Next, news of the utter ass-kicking on Isstvan V by the traitors reaches Terra and the Silent Tower. More Astropathic messages coming in of planets declaring for the Warmaster. People are depressed and everyone wonders how this could have happened. OK, got that.

Finally, a bit after news of Isstvan V reaches Terra we have the whole sequence of Magnus breaking the seals on the webway and utterly screwing Terra and all the psykers on the planet. WHAT?!!

Wait a minute. My understanding from False Gods and The Thousand Sons had Magnus justifying breaching the webway chamber on Terra to desperately tell his father, the Big E, how his chosen son had fallen to Chaos and what are they to do!! Now I find out that, I dunno, months or possibly a year had passed between Davin and the Dropsite Massacre, and Terra had full (or virtually so) Astropathic communication with the rest of the Imperium during this period, and knew of the Warmaster's fall... THEN Magnus decides to what, bring them a warning that he could have just emailed in last Christmas and everyone in the galaxy already seems to know? What otherwise would have been his motivations? 


WTF? I feel like I'm missing something really basic to my entire understanding of the entire HH and one of the 2-3 defining events. This seems like colossally poor editing unless someone can please enlighten me.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

I think I read in another thread that the authors passed it off as some sort of vagaries in time while he was travelling to Terra, since he wasn't physically travelling there via warp translation on a ship. Or something like that, I can't exactly remember. I think the best explanation is just a mess up on the authors part.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I can't make sense of it. Not even in a "the Warp did it!" sense. It was a mistake, period. Bottom line:

1. "False Gods" has Magnus try to intervene and save Horus from making the decision to rebel while in a comatose vision induced by Erebus.
2. "False Gods" later talks about how Magnus has tried to contact the Emperor, but by doing do he accidentally wrecks his works. The now-treacherous Horus tries to cover his tracks by manipulating Leman Russ and changing his orders from "bring Magnus back in chains" to "destroy Prospero and Magnus".
3. "Galaxy in Flames" describes the events of Isstvan III.
4. "Fulgrim" describes the events of Isstvan V.
5. "The Outcast Dead" describes the message Magnus sent before the conclusion of "False Gods", which led to Imperial forces being sent out to fight the battle described in "Fulgrim", arrive in Terra after the events of Isstvan V.

Again, it makes no sense to me. Given that Graham McNeil has stated that there is an explanation for this, I am incredibly curious to see what it will be. I mean, I hope that it's something that blows my mind away, but as of right now I'm reservedly cautious.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

To avoid the embarassment the authors must feel. They will likely strike it up to the cruelty of the Chaos Gods. When they sent Magnus flying through the Warp, time sped up for him and the events he sought to prevent already happened.

It would be hilariously laughable if thats how it actually happened. Damning yourself, Humanity, and all Creation to get a message that, even if it had been well recieved, would have earned you little more than a "Duh ..." from the Emperor.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

I agree the timeline is screwed. I've wracked my brains about this one and the only explanation I can come up with is that Magnus' appearance in The Outcast Dead is a psychic echo of the initial message that was received more personally by the Emperor. And yes, no doubt, it was the warp what dun it! Pretty feeble, but that's as good as I can think of.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I think someone needs to put up their hand and say,'Sorry, I fucked up."
On the other hand with a series of this size and complexity there were bound to be timeline errors. It is just a shame that this one seems to have made it through. I still love the series though, despite these glitches.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The fact that it was McNeill that fucked up makes it worse. He's been in on the HH project since the very beginning. No excuse regarding the warp fucking it up will wash because in False Gods the rebels know what Magnus did, which wouldn't have been possible if you go on the TOD timeline because it hadn't actually happened yet. Considering he wrote both books it becomes even harder to believe the mistake was made.

As Shaantitus says, he needs to admit the fuck up and try and fix it later on.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

You can't just blame one man. Black Library has editors, staff, and supervisors. You mean to tell me that through all the proof-reading, editing, overview -- nobody noticed such a glaring mistake?


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

The outcast dead is a quality read ruined by a World Eater smashing his way through a Custodians armor. With a naked fist. 

As for the chronology, I suspect its just a fuck up (although I always imagined a large timeline stuck to the wall of BL HQ where the writers / editors could consult and presumably fill in the gaps)...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

thebinman said:


> The outcast dead is a quality read ruined by a World Eater smashing his way through a Custodians armor. With a naked fist.


I mentioned it in a review thread of TOD that I felt that someone else had actually written the book. It was like he was too busy and got an over eager fanboy intern to write it. Stuff like you mentioned just didn't have the feel of the usual McNeill quality.



BlackGuard said:


> You can't just blame one man. Black Library has editors, staff, and supervisors. You mean to tell me that through all the proof-reading, editing, overview -- nobody noticed such a glaring mistake?


You can blame one man when he is responsible for the continuity of two books he wrote. Also, the BL editorial team do not have a great record to be honest.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

If that be the case Khorne's Fist -- then we have far more to worry about than the author. If the total of something as critical as the chronology of the entire Horus Heresy is left completely in their hands with little hands on by the editors or supervisor staff, then its a painful error on the part of Black Library. 

I'm not doubting it may be his fault in not recognizing it himself but at the end of the day I'm not going to crucify him alone when there are plenty of people also worthy of scorn.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> To avoid the embarassment the authors must feel. They will likely strike it up to the cruelty of the Chaos Gods. When they sent Magnus flying through the Warp, time sped up for him and the events he sought to prevent already happened.


Even that doesn't work. I mean, however you want to do the time travel, the fact remains that the Emperor sent Leman Russ after Magnus BEFORE Isstvan III, but Magnus' message arrives AFTER Isstvan V.



thebinman said:


> The outcast dead is a quality read ruined by a World Eater smashing his way through a Custodians armor. With a naked fist.


A lot of people try to equate what happened in that scene with a human being punching a plate of steel a couple of inches thick. Thing is, it wasn't just a naked fist. It was a fist whose bones were genetically reinforced and hardened to superhuman levels.

Beyond that, it comes down to how certain material works - and that something we don't exactly know about. For instance, two summers ago, there was an article that ran about a study the United States Marine Corps did on defects they were finding in their armor plates. Marine instructors mentioned that plates dropped from a height of 2-3 feet could develop cracks that would undermine their effectiveness.

These are plates meant to stop a high velocity bullet.

Clearly ceramite in the 41st millennium is more advanced than the ceramic material used to make American armor plates. But just as clearly, we can't take it for granted that certain material behave the same way against any attack. Here is what earlier fluff had to say - from the Angels of Death Codex:



> "Individual plates of rumour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against *most small arms* the armour reduces the chance of injury *by between 50-85%*, ..."


Again, is a Space Marine's bare fist a normal one? What would a full-force blow by a Space Marine do to a human being, for instance? Would it be comparable to the damage done to a bullet? Not in terms of achieving the same type of penetration, per se, but in terms of overall trauma. What about several such blows, against the same spot?

I just think that people dismiss that scene too easily, and on the basis of what they _think_ they know. No disrespect intended!


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I was worried I had written the post after too much ale last night and would be the laughing stock of the forum... at least for this post.

In thinking about the story progression in The Outcast Dead, even with editorial intervention, it would have required a major re-write to correct the timeline and character development in the novel, considering Magnus's intervention seems to be the major conflict that sets the narrative on a more active course.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Even that doesn't work. I mean, however you want to do the time travel, the fact remains that the Emperor sent Leman Russ after Magnus BEFORE Isstvan III, but Magnus' message arrives AFTER Isstvan V.


Yeah, and _Fear to Tread_ also supports this chronological order. The non-Outcast Dead one that is.



The Wolves arrive to watch over the Blood Angels, well after Magnus' fuckup is known, but before the loyalists are aware of Horus' betrayal.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

I really hope I'm proven wrong but I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in what ever Graham cobbles together to try and explain this abomination. I have little doubt that it will make no sense and everybody will be able to pick holes in it. The whole Outcast Dead debacle is the worst thing I've seen BL do by a county mile. 

If on the other hand he does manage to provide a credible explanation then I'll hold my hand up. Believe me, I'm really hoping for the second outcome but I'm fully expecting the first.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still find the notion that the writers think they can explain the error away to be rather ludicrous. As Phoebus has said, there just isn't a way to make it work, time alteration, which really would have been the only viable explanation, is out the window because of the other novels contradicting that. There just isn't a way short of saying all the events of _The Outcast Dead_ happened in Kai's head or something else as absurd as that.

I'm sure it is a fuck up they are trying to deny.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> There just isn't a way short of saying all the events of _The Outcast Dead_ happened in Kai's head or something else as absurd as that.


Just like Bobby Ewing, he was actually in the shower for the whole thing.:laugh:


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