# bsb in a chariot - good idea or bad?



## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

I've been converting a HE chariot to be a cold one chariot, and was considering having the chariot be the 'mount' for my battle standard bearer. I don't really feel the need for any of the banners that are too expensive for my units (DE are pretty generous for that) and so my main concern is getting a reroll on those damn stupidity tests. Give the hero the Crimson Death (since he's using the chariot's armor save anyway, not like he needs a shield) and that's a unit/model with some oomph. More easily targetted than if the bsb was with another unit, but T5, 3+ save and 4 wounds means it's only war machines I really need to fear (or should I be looking at adding a ward save talisman of some kind?).

One other question: can you make a deah hag your bsb if she also has a cauldron of blood? If so, very tough but likely to get out of range of the rest of the army bc so slow.


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

A hag can be th BSB with a cauldron is pure win, keep the cauldron behind your lines, and love the buffs and re-rolls. Also, can a character on a chariot not be targeted individually? If so, then bad bad baaaaaad Idea. If not, I see the merit in it. Not what I would do, but hey its your army.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Not a great idea to be honest- your BSB is still only T3 and 1/3 of all shots against the chariot will hit him (not the 1/6 it used to be). Plus he no longer gets to use the chariots AS, or get +2 for it... instead you only get +1 for being mounted, so you are pretty vulnerable. Then if you do get into combat the enemy can just bash you direcly- it makes you very easy to kill, and you want he BSB to survive.
Personally I would be more likely to just throw in a unit of 10 basic warriors to act as a BSB honour guard- they are incrediby cheap and can just sit behind the main battleline protacting your BSB. Add in a unit banner and if you do get into combat (and if you can keep your BSB alive) then you'll have a half decent combat res score... although beafing them up to win fights would be last on my mind (personally I would be tempted to have a totally bare BSB in a totally bare unit- cheap and disposible, but making it so unlikely you'll fail a Ld test).
... but dont even mention cannons, if one targets a character on a chariot both bits will be demolished incredibly quickly.

Looks like the cauldron hag can be the general or the BSB.. after all the cauldron is just an upgrade. Makes them pretty darn hard to kill, but a bit immobaile, so getting them where they are needed may be an issue.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I disagree with some of Tim's points actually, if you don't give your BSB a magical banner, something you don't really need anyways, you can take some of the excellent defensive items that Dark Elves have, or some from the BRB. As well, mounted on a chariot, with mundane armor, the Master has a 2+/1+ save. A Dragon-Helm can protect against the Lore of Metal, as well as giving you an all-round 1+ armor save, and there are several items you can use to get a Ward against other nasty spells, or you can kit your character out to add some punch to the Chariots charge.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

I appear to be fundamentally misunderstanding the 'characters in chariots' rules. The chariot rules say the crew always use the toughness and armor save of the chariot. The characters in chariots rules say use all the rules of chariots and characters, and otherwise use the monster rules. I had interpreted this to mean that a character in a chariot has a T5 and 3+ armor save.

Heavy armor 5+, +1 for mounted, +1 for dragon cloak is 3+ (it's on the model anyway) (2+ vs missles), add dragon helm gets you to 2+, 1+ vs missles, and 2+ ward vs flaming. Masked Jackal, were you assuming a shield?

At 10 points, the dragonhelm's cheap enough to take crimson death, bane of caledor or deathpiercer...hmm. Or just take the dragon's egg, and the round you're going to charge have T6 and do 2d6 breath weapon hits as well as d6+1 impact hits and a lance.

While I understand the attraction of a cauldron bsb (T10 vs shooting and 4+ ward) is it not a bit too slow to keep within 12" of units?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, the 'always use the T and save of the chariot' is just fluff... in game the chariot and its crew are just 1 combined model. So there might be elven crew and cold one pulling it but they ignore their normal profiles (except for doing their own attacks).
Characters on a chariot basically get no benefit from it- its a chariot and acts as a chariot but from the characters point of view its the exact same as a monster.

Making a BSB with a 2+/1+ save really isnt as good as it sounds. While a 2+/1+ sounds alright, remember that BSB's are the grease in the joints of an 8th ed army.. and as such any chance for an easy BSB kill will be gladly accepted by most players. That means any army that has lore of beasts, bolt throwers and/or cannons can ignore his save and kill him in 1 go (and lore of metal if you dont protect yourself from flaming)... and remember that you cant pull the BSB off the chariot and hide him in a unit before the start of the game.
If you do tailor lists before the start of the game then it might do you well against some enemies... but I really dont like doing that- tailored lists are normally manifestly unfair to one side or other (quick example with lores- you would take metal vs WoC, death vs ogres and light vs daemons/undead).

Meanwhile, simply hiding him in a cheap unit always helps to preotect him (until they get hit with something like dwellers, but nothing protects him from that). If you want to run a nasty combat chariot I would take it, but I wouldnt put the BSB anywhere near it... its just far too important (without the BSB nasty infantry, cold ones and hydras will pull shooting away from the chariot, but not if it has a BSB on it).


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

mahavira said:


> I appear to be fundamentally misunderstanding the 'characters in chariots' rules. The chariot rules say the crew always use the toughness and armor save of the chariot. The characters in chariots rules say use all the rules of chariots and characters, and otherwise use the monster rules. I had interpreted this to mean that a character in a chariot has a T5 and 3+ armor save.
> 
> Heavy armor 5+, +1 for mounted, +1 for dragon cloak is 3+ (it's on the model anyway) (2+ vs missles), add dragon helm gets you to 2+, 1+ vs missles, and 2+ ward vs flaming. Masked Jackal, were you assuming a shield?
> 
> ...


As Tim said, it counts as a monster. Read the BRB. Yes, I was assuming a shield, as, though Crimson Death is good, it is actually inferior to Whip of Agony now. Extra attack, S5, which against most infantry still means 2's, and it's armor piercing in cast you do hit something with a good armor save.

Anyways, those are some good points, Tim, but I think that some of the defenses that are possible still keep a BSB on a chariot viable, though it may not be as good as hiding them in a unit.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Give it a decent save and the pendent of Khaleth and you're laughing, it would make a really nasty killy unit... especially if you can afford a half decent weapon with any remaining points, but I just cant see the reason to make it your BSB. Make a standard killy noble and its hard but expendible, which a BSB certainly never is.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Give it a decent save and the pendent of Khaleth and you're laughing, it would make a really nasty killy unit... especially if you can afford a half decent weapon with any remaining points, but I just cant see the reason to make it your BSB. Make a standard killy noble and its hard but expendible, which a BSB certainly never is.


Yes, thinking it through, I think you're right, though it would be a shame not to put the Pendant in some other places. With 15 points, you can get Soul-Render, a great weapon with armor piercing. Use the unit to turn the tide in a prolonged combat with one of your units being a big ranked up Warriors unit, and you've a good chance of breaking the enemy.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Great Weapon = no go on BSB's. With Step Up it's bad enough, but especially as a proper Elf (i.e not a Gay fairy), you want to benefit from your I6+. In 7th, I'd have agreed, provided you got the challenge. Although with the ASF banner I'd disagree - although I'm more partial to the Hydra Banner now.

Now, I'd just say PoK, and Armour of Blood with a Halberd. Gives 3 (4 with Hydra) S5 Attacks.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Great Weapon = no go on BSB's. With Step Up it's bad enough, but especially as a proper Elf (i.e not a Gay fairy), you want to benefit from your I6+. In 7th, I'd have agreed, provided you got the challenge. Although with the ASF banner I'd disagree - although I'm more partial to the Hydra Banner now.
> 
> Now, I'd just say PoK, and Armour of Blood with a Halberd. Gives 3 (4 with Hydra) S5 Attacks.


It doesn't really matter whether you go first in most cases. Because of the step up, it doesn't matter whether you kill them before or after they go, as they'll still go. A typical situation for a character on chariot will be charging into the side of a unit to turn the tide, and 4 guys striking back at a character with PoK and mundane armor aren't going to do a whole lot, while Soul-Render will allow you to counter other characters or ultra-hard armor/toughness if necessary. In fact, I'd say it's the complete opposite of what you've said. In 7th, having a halberd and killing the guys before they struck back would be essential, but here, you just need to get kills.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> Yes, thinking it through, I think you're right, though it would be a shame not to put the Pendant in some other places. With 15 points, you can get Soul-Render, a great weapon with armor piercing. Use the unit to turn the tide in a prolonged combat with one of your units being a big ranked up Warriors unit, and you've a good chance of breaking the enemy.


Thats basically how I recon chariots will be used in 8th... they arent great by themselves but smacking into the flank of an ongoing combat which you cant win to turn the tide would be awesome

I'm a big fan of great weapons... always have been really. I go onto ogre forums occasionally and almost everyone give their tyrant cathayan longswords to get WS7 and I5, but since almost all characters out there have higher I then that I prefer to just take a great weapon and have the mindset of: "hit me, but if I'm still standing afterwards you wont be".
Unless you are running a unit/character purely as a suicide bomb to smash inot the enemy, do huge amounts of damage and then die (as I run wardancers)then having great weapons makes very little difference until you are down to very small units. On characters ist only really against other characters that you need to care- if you are survivable enough then you can afford to strike last... if not then you _must_ hit first, but then with a charot hero you can pick your battles more carefully.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

<--- Chaos Mortal and Asrai Player.

GW = Nightmare. Also, I prefer to get what I pay for my characters. In combat characters, that's a raw return of what I put in - i.e 350 points in = 350+ pts out.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback - a lot to consider. It does occur to me that since if a chariot doesn't do the job in the charge round, it probably won't anyway, a lance might be the most cost effective weapon - gets you the +2 strength and doesn't lose initiative. If the impact hits and close combat breath aren't enough to turn the tide (and black dragon breath causes a panic test even if the unit wins the combat), that tide isn't turning.

Would it be fair to say that the consensus is that while putting a hero in a chariot may be a good idea, the battle standard belongs on a cauldron of blood or otherwise in a unit?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

mahavira said:


> Thanks for the feedback - a lot to consider. It does occur to me that since if a chariot doesn't do the job in the charge round, it probably won't anyway, a lance might be the most cost effective weapon - gets you the +2 strength and doesn't lose initiative. If the impact hits and close combat breath aren't enough to turn the tide (and black dragon breath causes a panic test even if the unit wins the combat), that tide isn't turning.


Actually Noxious breath just means they have to take a leadership test at -3 to declare charges in the enemy's turn. Also, why take +2 strength for only one round of combat when you can have it for all rounds?


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

The BSB COB is one of the most effective BSB's in fact really only effective BSB now that DE have. (In my opinion).

What the problem with it is, is at the end of the day as people have pointed out its a War Machine and therefore slow.... The best use so far I have had with it, is to put the Strider banner on it. This allows it to basically scale cliff faces and support your spearmen as they all get KB and your opponent says WTF! how did your war machine get to cross that river, marsh, crack house ruin, elven wood, dwarven mine, empty coke can pretending to be a wheat silo (Make car sounds as you move the COB, for stupid and funny looks at your gaming store!) 

That said, the Death Hag is rather limited as protection is few and far between for her if something is determined to remove the COB. That said... happy for an opponent to focus on that as a DE player as it means my troops are getting less mauled on the advance.


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