# old necrons vs new necrons.



## GabrialSagan

I am really torn on which fluff is better. I like the idea of Necrons as soulless automatons hellbent on harvesting souls for their death-gods. On the other hand I like that necrons can actually have a personality now.


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## Iron Angel

Who says you cant have both?


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## Magpie_Oz

Iron Angel said:


> Who says you cant have both?


Isn't that the case. The Lords have feelings and the minions are blocks of steel ?


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## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> Isn't that the case. The Lords have feelings and the minions are blocks of steel ?


That's how I read it at least.


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## klaswullt

You can't have both, not to me anyway.
Not all these new Necron characters.

The only appeal with the Necron was that they where mindless zombies
controlled by lovecraftian horrors.
Just as the terminators in the Terminator movies, 
their only appeal is that they are the unstoppable apocalypse.


The old one is the best, its all about C'than and their tragic servitor race.
No inner conflict, no free will.
The necrons are the big threat to all life in the universe, the end of all things.
They are the third or fourth enemy that could unite Chaos and the Imperium.
against a common enemy.
They are classical Cosmic horror, played straight.
End of discussion.

Their only equal is the Tyranids.



The only thing I liked with the new fluff, was switching Tomb World
for Dynasty names.


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## Deadeye776

Wow. Man after my own heart. couldn't have said it better myself. The thing is that you've "humanized" the necrons. They use to be ethereal cyborgs serving nigh-omnipotent horrors. For fucksake it took a galactic dysonsphere to trap one of these things. The other is locked in some kinda warp prison that defies logic and reason on mars. Now? They've allied with the Blood Angels to stop the tyranids. Who knows, if things work out maybe they can team up to fight Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Republicans.


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## Magpie_Oz

That does give the Necron a broader appeal tho' doesn't it.

If you wan them to be mindless automatons they can be. If you want them to be plotters and schemers that have actual personalities then you can do that too.

Everybody is happy. Except those that just want them to themselves of course.


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## bitsandkits

the old fluff was boring half arsed rushed to the printing press shite, the new stuff actually makes them feel like a scifi race worthy of a codex, besides we have souless in the nids.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The new lore still gives the potential to create armies of mindless automatons enslaved to the will of the C'tan (shards), that isn't an issue. It has just made the Necrons a more varied army, thus giving the individual the ability to choose which direction he or she wants to take, as well as making an infinitely more interesting faction - which can only be applauded.

Also, it should be taken into account that Necron Warriors (and the other lower ranks) are still mindless automatons just as in the old lore. Even in the old lore the Necron Lords were the only individuals to maintain some form of consciousness, that has simply been expanded upon in the new lore. The gulf in difference between the old and new sets of lore has been greatly exaggerated in my opinion.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The new lore still gives the potential to create armies of mindless automatons enslaved to the will of the C'tan (shards), that isn't an issue. It has just made the Necrons a more varied army, thus giving the individual the ability to choose which direction he or she wants to take, as well as making an infinitely more interesting faction - which can only be applauded.
> 
> Also, it should be taken into account that Necron Warriors (and the other lower ranks) are still mindless automatons just as in the old lore. Even in the old lore the Necron Lords were the only individuals to maintain some form of consciousness, that has simply been expanded upon in the new lore. The gulf in difference between the old and new sets of lore has been greatly exaggerated in my opinion.


I'm surprised you approve of the new direction.

The new lore states that the C'tan, even in their prime, lost to the Necrons (Or was it after they weakened one another with their war. Still...)? 

While I am aware that it was a case of the entire Necron race and their tech vs the C'tan, it still never sat well with me.

You'd never even suggest a similar thing happening with the Chaos powers.

The C'tan, to me at least, were the physical counterparts to the Chaos powers but the new lore completely does away with that. 

They were dominated so hard, their essences exploded into millions of lesser shards similarly to the Eldar's Avatars of Khaine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm surprised you approve of the new direction.


I thought you knew my thoughts Malus? Weren't you a part of that depressingly long thread where you said of my opponents:



Malus Darkblade said:


> Was I once that naive and misinformed CoTE before my new codex came out? >.<


:wink:


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## klaswullt

Magpie_Oz said:


> That does give the Necron a broader appeal tho' doesn't it.
> 
> If you wan them to be mindless automatons they can be. If you want them to be plotters and schemers that have actual personalities then you can do that too.
> 
> Everybody is happy. Except those that just want them to themselves of course.


That's a almost lie.
Their only appeal is that they are cosmic horror.
Their new story is not compatible with the basic concept.
The new codex, is actually the worst fluff ever written.
It is superficial, just a eldar clone basically.

They can't be both. Some necrons can't be self-aware and others robotic undead.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I thought you knew my thoughts Malus? Weren't you a part of that depressingly long thread where you said of my opponents:
> 
> 
> 
> :wink:


Haha that was a million years ago, I don't remember half the things I've said since then.

I'm still coming to terms with that fact that Serpion5 has ascended to daemonhood lol.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm still coming to terms with that fact that Serpion5 has ascended to daemonhood lol.


Strange things do happen around here.


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## klaswullt

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The new lore still gives the potential to create armies of mindless automatons enslaved to the will of the C'tan (shards), that isn't an issue. It has just made the Necrons a more varied army, thus giving the individual the ability to choose which direction he or she wants to take, as well as making an infinitely more interesting faction - which can only be applauded.
> 
> Also, it should be taken into account that Necron Warriors (and the other lower ranks) are still mindless automatons just as in the old lore. Even in the old lore the Necron Lords were the only individuals to maintain some form of consciousness, that has simply been expanded upon in the new lore. The gulf in difference between the old and new sets of lore has been greatly exaggerated in my opinion.



No the new codex doesn't.

The new codex makes them all some lame ass free willed race,
that basically have a inner angsty conflict.

The Cthan are portrayed as lameass, and the fluff reason for all
the unit types is anally raped.

And there is no cosmic horror in it anymore.
There is just some lameass faction of Necrons who still worship the C'than
despite the C'than being demoted into shards.

And the lameass faction is portrayed as damaged
and the free willed losers are fully functioning.


Where is the nihilistic death worship of the Necrons!
The souless indifference, the omen of purposeless but inevitable coming doom.


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## klaswullt

Malus Darkblade said:


> They were dominated so hard, their essences exploded into millions of lesser shards similarly to the Eldar's Avatars of Khaine.


It's nonsense, it was the C'than that infested Khaines avatar with
metal and the aspect of death and shattered him into shards.


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## Malus Darkblade

klaswullt said:


> It's nonsense, it was the C'than that infested Khaines avatar with
> metal and the aspect of death and shattered him into shards.


?

Slaanesh, not a C'tan, beat the shit out of Khaine hence why he split into a hundred avatars.

Khaine was simply tainted by the Nightbringer, whatever that means.


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## Akatsuki13

klaswullt said:


> That's a almost lie.
> Their only appeal is that they are cosmic horror.
> Their new story is not compatible with the basic concept.


It's still there. They haven't become any less technologically superior to everybody else. They are still the deathless legion coming to wipe out the young races of the galaxy. It's just that now they have personality too.



klaswullt said:


> The new codex, is actually the worst fluff ever written.
> It is superficial, just a eldar clone basically.


First off that's harsh considering some of the fluff in the Grey Knights Codex. Second how are they an Eldar clone? I can kind of see a bit of similarity between them in the state of their civilizations but only in the vaguest sense. You could call the old Nercons a Tyranid clone because they consume all life too.



klaswullt said:


> They can't be both. Some necrons can't be self-aware and others robotic undead.


Yes they can. As they've stated several times in the new Codex the lower rank Necrons are still automatons while those of higher rank who retained their minds to varying degrees suffered some form of degradation as a result of their stasis, save for one Necron Lord. So it isn't impossible to have a Necron army come out of stasis only to have its entire leadership, damaged from their long slumber, awaken only to revert back to their mindless state before the Silent King freed them. In that state they'd be exactly like the old Necrons, mindlessly wiping out all life.

Alternatively a free C'tan Shard (and yes there are those out there) finds a dormant Tomb World and decides to retake his disloyal servants, removing their free will again.

And those are just two possibilities of having an old-style Necron army with the new Codex.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

klaswullt said:


> No the new codex doesn't.


Doesn't what? Give the Necron race a sense of character and direction as a faction? Give players a choice in what direction they want to take their own army? Empower the Necrons with unique special characters that they entirely lacked before? Give numerous examples of what kind of fluff you can centre your own force around? Expand on the history and diversity of both the Necrontyr and Necrons? 

What were the old Necrons? An ancient race that was reawakening to enslave all life for their masters. That sentence summed up the extent of their lore in it's entirety. They are now so much more. The new codex is superior to the old in almost every way. 



klaswullt said:


> The new codex makes them all some lame ass free willed race


The new codex clearly states that the vast majority of Necrons are still mindless automatons, that hasn't changed. 



klaswullt said:


> The Cthan are portrayed as lameass, and the fluff reason for all the unit types is anally raped.


Your use of adjectives doesn't inspire intelligent debate. But I don't see the C'tan (rather than Cthan) as being diminished at all, I think that the shard-lore has empowered their lore and allows for much more freedom and interpretation. Don't forget, the shards are still beings "of near-unlimited power."



klaswullt said:


> And there is no cosmic horror in it anymore.


Thats because thats the way you've chosen to view the new lore. In essence, very little has actually changed. Much has been expanded upon, but not much has actually changed in essence. They are still the most technologically gifted civilisation that are reawakening to conquer what is rightfully theirs; they are still the silent horror whose number is legion; they are still the same - just with their lore expanded upon.


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## GabrialSagan

klaswullt said:


> Their only appeal is that they are cosmic horror.
> Their new story is not compatible with the basic concept.
> The new codex, is actually the worst fluff ever written.
> It is superficial, just a eldar clone basically.
> 
> They can't be both. Some necrons can't be self-aware and others robotic undead.


Except for the last statement, I agree with this. The necrons used to be death incarnate coming to strip the galaxy of all sentient life as part of some grand ritualistic harvest for horrific eldritch abominations that they worship.

Now they are a bunch of people who got screwed over by horrific abominations. They are just an old species that lost their empire and now want it back.

The only substantial differences between the eldar and the necrons is that the necrons got revenge against the abominations that dicked them over and the necrons actually stand a chance of regaining their lost empire. 

The soldierly being mindless is irrelevant, in the grimdarkness of 40k all soldiers are just tools of someone else and their personalities don't really matter. The necron warriors went from being the mindless tools of the C'tan to being the mindless tools of pharohtron.

As far as how the codex is written...Matt Ward left his mark all over that thing.


IMHO- If they were going to inflict such a radical change on the necrons they should have gone all the way and remade the necrons as the second generation of the Men of Iron. Less H.P. Lovecraft and more Frank Herbert, James Cameron or Wachowski brothers.


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## klaswullt

*BlACK*

I feel depressed by the lack of taste of some people.
If you aren't sure if a work is a Cosmic Horror Story or not, ask yourself these questions:
Is the antagonist evil or uncaring on a cosmic scale? We're talking a Big Bad who is capable of destroying humanity, planet Earth, the universe, or all three and doing so with very little or no preparation and/or intent, and with about as much effort as it takes to swat a mosquito that's landed on your arm.
Is the attitude of the antagonist towards humanity disregard, simple pragmatism, or incidental hatred? (A godlike antagonist that actively hates humanity and its works is more in line with Rage Against the Heavens or God Is Evil.) Does the antagonist have a worldview and motivations that doesn't really seem to take humanity into account? Are the motivations of the antagonist difficult to explain using human terms?
Are the antagonist or his minions so alien in appearance that simply seeing him is sufficient to drive a human to madness? Are they Eldritch Abominations?
Are the antagonist or his minions indescribable -- literally? Lines like "I cannot find the words to describe the vile thing I saw..." are a hallmark of Cosmic Horror Stories.
Is the tone of the work deeply pessimistic about the possibility of the antagonist being defeated completely? If it isn't, the work is more likely to be Lovecraft Lite.
Answering "No" to more than two of these means that the work is probably not a Cosmic Horror Story, although it may share tropes with the genre.
you must see these links about the Necrons.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds
When I said "No it doesn't".
I really mean the codex doesn't give the player any broad
potential, I don't even think they have that deep personalities anyway.
It... not remotely lovecraftian.
Their technology level only had the purpose of justifying
their deadly and scary weapons.
Plain zombies just couldnt survive.
They are not some science fiction "civilisation"

Cosmic horror cannot be a race of free willed people.
Cosmic horror is a alien, incomprehensible
force or threat. 
Cosmic horrors cannot have a face. It reduces them.


I apologize for the editing.


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## Zion

klaswullt said:


> That's a almost lie.
> Their only appeal is that they are cosmic horror.
> Their new story is not compatible with the basic concept.
> The new codex, is actually the worst fluff ever written.
> It is superficial, just a eldar clone basically.


That's your opinion, but obviously not the opinion of GW, or some of the fans.

I've got a friend who don't come on here often that has made an interesting point about the old Necrons: they were basically stuck in a corner. There was no room for growth, it was hard to integrate them into campaigns or story based games without saying "It's a Tomb World." or "They want your precious minerals." 

Necrons were faceless, voiceless and unlike Tyranids, unchanging. For the writers, how do they expand this? How do you retcon this to add more things into the army? They obviously decided to change the army on a core level and then go from there.



klaswullt said:


> They can't be both. Some necrons can't be self-aware and others robotic undead.


I'm going to sound like an ass but go back and read the codex. It mentions that the Lords, Crypteks, Overlords, and Lynchguard are the only ones who are truly self-aware. All of these are upper caste society members save for the Lynchguard who'd been entrusted to guard the Tomb Worlds while never resting, never sleeping, and always watching...

Everyone else is a soul trapped in a machine, barely aware, unable to think outside of their programming, and unable to remember that they ever lived.

On top of that, not everything has gone well for the Tomb Worlds. Maybe have been damaged over the eons and are nothing more than shambling hordes lead by deranged lords who didn't wake up fully correct. They have damaged programming and only seek to destroy, or perhaps harvest specific minerals from certain planets for a plan they can't complete due to the damage. These were in the old codex, and they still exist as an option as a way to build your army.



klaswullt said:


> No the new codex doesn't.
> 
> The new codex makes them all some lame ass free willed race,
> that basically have a inner angsty conflict.


You're stating opinions here, not facts. The old codex didn't tell of the Necrons from their POV but from the Imperium's (as per the Inquisition, this was common up until part way into 4th when they decided to switch it up and really expand on their ideas) so for all we know the Necrons have _always_ been this way, we just couldn't see it.




klaswullt said:


> The Cthan are portrayed as lameass, and the fluff reason for all
> the unit types is anally raped.


*sighs* Again, more opinion than fact here. Before there were two C'Tan -total- and they were very expensive to field, usually got shot to hell (though this tended to be the tactic for them) and cut into your "Necron" count. Now that we've got more options on how to build them, the ability to take multiples and they're cheaper they're "lame-ass"?

I'm sorry you don't like them, but I think the scary soul eating monsters still being soul eating monsters and there now being more of them is _better_ not worse.




klaswullt said:


> And there is no cosmic horror in it anymore.
> There is just some lameass faction of Necrons who still worship the C'than
> despite the C'than being demoted into shards.


You're right, as far as _we_ see it, there is a lot more dimension to the Necrons. For the Imperium though, they're still a cosmic horror. For example I know about Cthulhu and how he works, making him less scary to _me_ but to the people who deal with him, he still drives a man mad.




klaswullt said:


> And the lameass faction is portrayed as damaged
> and the free willed losers are fully functioning.


More opinion. Not everyone agrees with you. 



> Where is the nihilistic death worship of the Necrons!
> The souless indifference, the omen of purposeless but inevitable coming doom.


You know you can still have that, right? You can still have a Tomb World fully devoted to destroying all life so that the C'Tan can never come into power again, working against even the Necrons who wish to try and return to the flesh.



klaswullt said:


> It's nonsense, it was the C'than that infested Khaines avatar with
> metal and the aspect of death and shattered him into shards.


No, Slaanesh and Khorne fighting over Khaine resulted in him being accidentally expelled into real-space where he shattered. You might want to check your facts on that one.



klaswullt said:


> I feel depressed by the lack of taste of some people.


Honestly people can claim the same about you. We're dealing with GW fiction, it changes a lot (for example Ultramarines used to be a second founding chapter, not a Legion turned chapter) and for the good, and the bad that is what is is. 

There is something more to it though too. To quote Jervis regarding the "true canon" (at least I think it's him, forgive me if I'm source is wrong): "All of it's true, and none of it's true." 

If you don't like how the fluff is now you can make up any fluff you want. But don't expect people to just bow to your interpretation of things because you don't like what GW has released. People like the way the Necrons have changed as a whole and that's their opinion, don't attack them for it.



klaswullt said:


> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds
> When I said "No it doesn't".


I'm guessing you're using Tropes to justify your viewpoint here because otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

Maybe you're not the fan GW is aiming Necrons at anymore? Honestly I think GW was trying to expand the Necrons to be more interesting too more people. And if you think that just makes them Woobies now, fine, but please don't go trying to use your opinion as fact regarding the Necrons.



klaswullt said:


> I really mean the codex doesn't give the player any broad
> potential, I don't even think they have that deep personalities anyway.


So no broad potential with having them more personality that we can see, more characters to work off of, ideas of different Tomb Worlds and some of the different groups they make up? I'm going to disagree, there is more broad potential, not just in unit selection but where the army's focus is in the fluff is much more open beyond "kill all life" and "harvest resources" if they want.



klaswullt said:


> It... not remotely lovecraftian.


Not to the reader, but imagine facing these things. An army of gleaming metal skeletons that bear down on you, marching in unison, never speaking, and never slowing. They don't tire, and they're almost impossible to stop, and even then there are always more.

There is still horror there, but you need to look at it from a different point of view. It's not being spoon fed to us anymore so instead we need to read between the lines.



klaswullt said:


> Their technology level only had the purpose of justifying
> their deadly and scary weapons.
> Plain zombies just couldnt survive.
> They are not some science fiction "civilisation"


Nothing there has changed, except GW has decided that on some level there is still some level of civilization still there and thought it was an idea worth sharing. You may disagree with this, but it doesn't change it from being the fact of the matter: GW wanted to take Necrons this way.



klaswullt said:


> Cosmic horror cannot be a race of free willed people.
> Cosmic horror is a alien, incomprehensible
> force or threat.
> Cosmic horrors cannot have a face. It reduces them.


Look at the Lovecraftian lore. We can know so much about it and still enjoy it, but to the person in the story it's something they don't comprehend, can't comprehend. The horror of Necrons isn't something aimed at us, it's aimed at the people in the universe.

And Cosmic Horror can be lots of things to the reader that it's not to the victim. Even cute.


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## Akatsuki13

klaswullt said:


> Is the antagonist evil or uncaring on a cosmic scale? We're talking a Big Bad who is capable of destroying humanity, planet Earth, the universe, or all three and doing so with very little or no preparation and/or intent, and with about as much effort as it takes to swat a mosquito that's landed on your arm.


First off, the old Necrons couldn't do that back then. Too many of them of were still sleeping or lost over the eons to just suddenly rise up and wipe everything out. Second the C'tan don't actually _want_ to wipe out all life as then there's nothing left for them to consume. Either they would thin life out again before slumbering for eons which is not without risk or they would enslave life and feed at their leisure.



klaswullt said:


> Is the attitude of the antagonist towards humanity disregard, simple pragmatism, or incidental hatred? (A godlike antagonist that actively hates humanity and its works is more in line with Rage Against the Heavens or God Is Evil.) Does the antagonist have a worldview and motivations that doesn't really seem to take humanity into account? Are the motivations of the antagonist difficult to explain using human terms?


Well most Necron Lords look down on humanity and other young races. They might also see them as insects polluting their worlds, view them as nothing more than animals for spot, primitives to enslaved, etc.

Also the old Necrons didn't really have a hard motivation to explain. They serve the C'tan and that's about it where as the C'tan basically just want to consume souls.



klaswullt said:


> Are the antagonist or his minions so alien in appearance that simply seeing him is sufficient to drive a human to madness? Are they Eldritch Abominations?
> Are the antagonist or his minions indescribable -- literally? Lines like "I cannot find the words to describe the vile thing I saw..." are a hallmark of Cosmic Horror Stories.


Okay how did the Necrons change in that regard? Because as far as I can see they haven't. 



klaswullt said:


> Is the tone of the work deeply pessimistic about the possibility of the antagonist being defeated completely? If it isn't, the work is more likely to be Lovecraft Lite.


And where in the new Codex does it even mention about the possibility of the Necrons being beaten completely? They're like the Tyranids or Chaos. Sure you could beat them defeat on one planet but there are always more of them elsewhere.



klaswullt said:


> I really mean the codex doesn't give the player any broad
> potential, I don't even think they have that deep personalities anyway.
> It... not remotely lovecraftian.
> Their technology level only had the purpose of justifying
> their deadly and scary weapons.
> Plain zombies just couldnt survive.
> They are not some science fiction "civilisation"


Well let me ask you this what made the old Necrons Lovecraftian? Because I only saw it in the vaguest sense that they're an ancient alien race walking up from an eons long slumber to conquer and/or kill everything.



klaswullt said:


> Cosmic horror cannot be a race of free willed people.
> Cosmic horror is a alien, incomprehensible
> force or threat.
> Cosmic horrors cannot have a face. It reduces them.


Cthulhu has a face. Are you saying he's not a cosmic horror?

Besides that to just about everyone in the 40k galaxy the Necrons are an incomprehensible alien threat. Only the Eldar really knew about them to a greater degree, which they did in the old Codex too.


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## Iron Angel

Deadeye776 said:


> Wow. Man after my own heart. couldn't have said it better myself. The thing is that you've "humanized" the necrons. They use to be ethereal cyborgs serving nigh-omnipotent horrors. For fucksake it took a galactic dysonsphere to trap one of these things. The other is locked in some kinda warp prison that defies logic and reason on mars. Now? They've allied with the Blood Angels to stop the tyranids. Who knows, if things work out maybe they can team up to fight Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Republicans.


While, as an Oldcron player who loved the fluff, I completely feel you, you can still make it work. Who says all the Necrons rebelled against the C'tan anyway? Who says there aren't secret "loyalists" who still follow the C'tan and obey their every whim? Thats what my army is, just with a little more character now. I'll agree that Matt Ward didn't like an army that was considered more powerful than his beloved Spess Mehrens, and may have dropped them a couple pegs out of spite, but you gotta make it work for you.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Simply preferred mindless automata, tragically enslaved by a race of reality-bending Star Gods, with the universe as their giant playground. New fluff makes the Necrons just like all the other races, only made of metal. Rising upwards, infighting, pushing the boundaries and "soon to be a real threat"... blah blah blah, usual nonsense. Where are my soulless warriors?!


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## ckcrawford

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Simply preferred mindless automata, tragically enslaved by a race of reality-bending Star Gods, with the universe as their giant playground. New fluff makes the Necrons just like all the other races, only made of metal. Rising upwards, infighting, pushing the boundaries and "soon to be a real threat"... blah blah blah, usual nonsense. Where are my soulless warriors?!


Yeah, don't understand why really, the fluff was perfect before, and now there's just many things that don't make sense about why they seem so involved with a galaxy and other things that are below such a powerful, civilized, ancient, and perhaps superior race.


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## GabrialSagan

Iron Angel said:


> While, as an Oldcron player who loved the fluff, I completely feel you, you can still make it work. Who says all the Necrons rebelled against the C'tan anyway? Who says there aren't secret "loyalists" who still follow the C'tan and obey their every whim?


If their were loyalists, they are loyalists because they choose to be. That is the point, before the retcon Necrons were machines, cold logical, unfeeling. They were automated harvesters with all the compassion of a farm tractor or a predator drone. 

Now they are metal people. They have wants and beliefs. They think, feel and desire. They can be reasoned with, bribed, even made to feel sympathy (albeit the last one seems highly unlikely). 

They went from being Terminators to Deceptacon.


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## Zion

GabrialSagan said:


> If their were loyalists, they are loyalists because they choose to be. That is the point, before the retcon Necrons were machines, cold logical, unfeeling. They were automated harvesters with all the compassion of a farm tractor or a predator drone.
> 
> Now they are metal people. They have wants and beliefs. They think, feel and desire. They can be reasoned with, bribed, even made to feel sympathy (albeit the last one seems highly unlikely).
> 
> They went from being Terminators to Deceptacon.


How far do those emotions go in those cold metal circuits though? Are they real? Are they just simulated, or is it just a Necron bound by it's programing to make faulty choices occasionally in an attempt at displaying free will and individuality? Can it help it?

There are a lot of new questions that are left unanswered by this larger fluff section, getting caught up in the small details makes you miss the bigger things that go on behind them.


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## Stephen_Newman

I prefer the new fluff in most cases. It expands on the Necrons we know and love, makes the C'tan more believable to field on the table (rather than being described as these living Gods that would be snipered by my Pathfinders over 2 rounds every game I saw one). Also having certain Necrons have mild personalities is not so unbelivable. I am reasonably sure that it existed in some level in the old codex and people's armies.

What I don't like is the way the C'tan were defeated by the Necrons. It makes the C'tan look like complete halfwits and I am reasonably sure one does not become an all round super villain by vastly underestimating their minions. I am pretty sure the following conversation never came up between the C'tan:

Deceiver: You know if I was these guys I would be super pissed about it.

Nightbringer: I can agree with that. How would we stop them though.

Void Dragon: We could implement some simple software based off something like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics.

Outsider: Yeah. Not to mention it would stop *some* of us controlling them against the rest of us.

Deceiver: Why is everyone looking at me?

If I were to analogise it it would be comparable to modern day society being overrun and controlled by our coffee makers (no offense to coffee makers intended). It just sounds so ludicrous and unlikely to me.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Zion said:


> How far do those emotions go in those cold metal circuits though? Are they real? Are they just simulated, or is it just a Necron bound by it's programing to make faulty choices occasionally in an attempt at displaying free will and individuality? Can it help it?
> 
> There are a lot of new questions that are left unanswered by this larger fluff section, getting caught up in the small details makes you miss the bigger things that go on behind them.


I think that the codex made it clear that the higher orders of necron are capable of feeling anger, the need for revenge, loathing of lesser species, jealousy of their peers, ambition to become more powerful and desire to become flesh again. How these feelings are generated is moot. Necrons can feel things other than hate and the urge to exterminate. The fact that they have feelings that are subjectively real to the necron nobility means that the nobles can be manipulated.


----------



## fish0311

bitsandkits said:


> the old fluff was boring half arsed rushed to the printing press shite, the new stuff actually makes them feel like a scifi race worthy of a codex, besides we have souless in the nids.


The soulless-ness of the Nids is of a biological "nature is ever-changing and persistent" presentation. 

The soulless-ness of the old Necrons was the unforgiving and UN-changing ways of cold logic and science/technology. 

They couldn't be further from each other. Not to mention the ways the factions use the warp and its' differing importance to each.

The new Necrons seem to shadow the way every other race in the 40k universe works, wiping out their unique territory of the grim dark they had staked out (territory that persuaded many of us to pick up this hobby).



Zion said:


> I've got a friend who don't come on here often that has made an interesting point about the old Necrons: they were basically stuck in a corner.


I vehemently, but respectfully, disagree. There were many pieces of old Necron fluff that were prime to be expanded upon without losing any of the characteristics that drew fans to them in the first place. 

The Pariah gene was a wonderfully crafted piece of lore that had many possibilities to meaningfully impact and expand the universe.

The Pariahs themselves could've been the opportunity to inject a small bit of personality. They were humans, they have a voice, and they have a small amount of free will. Look to Thomas Macabee (Dark Crusade Pariah) for an outstanding example at how scary and cool these guys had the potential to be.

The machinations of the Deceiver would always be fun and interesting for authors to play with; and for us readers to, well, read.

Assaults on Mars and the entombed Dragon. Mechanicus cults who learn the truth of their Omnissiah.

What happens when the Outsider returns?

What new and wondrous technology has the Imperium come across while fighting the Necrons? Some of the greatest fluff bits that stuck to me is Imperium trying explain how gauss technology works: and being completely dumbfounded. This added to the "mystery of the Necrons" in that the Imperium was trying to fight a foe they knew almost nothing about; the threat looming larger than they could imagine.

The war against the warp and the C'tan's attempts to permanently separate real space and immaterium.

The C'tan's ancient and hated enemy, the Eldar.


And yes, they did expand on some of these in the new codex, but the way they did it and the overall shift in tone of the race just plain ruined it. There were plenty of paths and directions GW could've taken without veering off to Egypt in space territory. They chose not to, and most of us older Necron players weep.


----------



## Zion

GabrialSagan said:


> I think that the codex made it clear that the higher orders of necron are capable of feeling anger, the need for revenge, loathing of lesser species, jealousy of their peers, ambition to become more powerful and desire to become flesh again. How these feelings are generated is moot. Necrons can feel things other than hate and the urge to exterminate. The fact that they have feelings that are subjectively real to the necron nobility means that the nobles can be manipulated.


My point is there is more than the obvious there. Emotions are chemical cocktails dancing across synaptic gaps, being machines they don't necessarily have such things (and if they do that would make them a bit odder than the normal robots I think, and more alien to us). So how "real" are these emotions? Are they little more than subroutines, or do they go deeper? How deep? Can they be turned off? Can they be reprogrammed? Removed? 

There is more here if we know how to look at it. Yes they feel jealousy of each other, but with most having little to no memory of their former lives how can they be sure of why they're jealous. Or if those brief memories are even their own, or real.

Where some people see mustache twirling villains I see a race that can't even be sure of it's own identity, acting out of programmed instinct and memories, feeling emotions they've had programmed into them that they can't even truly be sure of.

But that's just our side of it all, when you look at the side of the races they face you see a cold, calculating force that uses weapons you can't even understand, ones that strip you from the bone or arc lighting through your friends and into you. With out a sound they march on you, never faltering, and standing once again when they're forced down.

Lead silently by large, more ornate skeletal beings that seem to mock your very form as they direct their army against you. Never tiring, never sleeping, never eating, never speaking, never stopping. They are the perpetual engine of destruction, unable to be stopped, only slowed for a time.

But that's just _my_ way of looking at their fluff.

EDIT: Because the post above me brought up the "Egypt in Space" thing...I just want to point out that this is the "Classic Necron Lord" off the GW website:










I'm sorry, but I think "Egypt in Space" was there first (Scarabs, Monoliths aka Space Pyramids, Tomb Worlds) it's just less hidden now.


----------



## fish0311

Ha ha, no doubt! I do remember that model, what a long way we've come eh?

While yes, the Monolith, scarabs, etc. allude to an Egyptian aesthetic; it was definitely more of a visual design choice than personality. That's fine; all the armies have some sort of a borrowed artistic representation of factions throughout history. But the personality (and lack there-of) of the old Necrons and the part they had in the universe was unique to them. Now, not so much. They have started ACTING and FEELING like ancient Egyptians. We have Tomb Kings for that.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

If you want to know why the Necron are based on Egypt then watch Dr Who "The Pyramids of Mars" and all will become clear. 
You will be pleased with the fluff because you will then understand.

All will be good and there will be much grinning through out the land.


----------



## Zion

fish0311 said:


> Ha ha, no doubt! I do remember that model, what a long way we've come eh?
> 
> While yes, the Monolith, scarabs, etc. allude to an Egyptian aesthetic; it was definitely more of a visual design choice than personality. That's fine; all the armies have some sort of a borrowed artistic representation of factions throughout history. But the personality (and lack there-of) of the old Necrons and the part they had in the universe was unique to them. Now, not so much. They have started ACTING and FEELING like ancient Egyptians. We have Tomb Kings for that.


Yes, but you didn't have them _IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE._

And to be honest, that's all 40K started as, Fantasy _IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE_, and that's what it still is in a lot of ways. Getting mad about that is frankly pointless because it's bound to continue to be true.

Look, before we go on another long round about regarding fluff I just want to make something clear:

The fiction now, and has always been as true as you want it to be. If you don't like the new Necron fluff, fine. Just skip that whole half the book and build your Necrons up any way you want. You literally can. not. be. wrong. And that's something GW has told us time and time again. They're just providing the tools, but if we don't like them we can make our own too.

40k is a playground, we can spend all day bitching that the swing squeaks or we can try having some fun. 

Personally I'm voting for the fun.


----------



## fish0311

Zion:

And I'm not one of those that is raging or somehow angry at GW or Ward or anybody to have a say in the change of direction. I accept the book and move on. I bought some of the new models and made up my own background for them like you described: more in line with the older fluff. For people who enjoy the changes, good on you and welcome to the Necrons! I've seen some really cool armies and themes with all the personality and flash seen in the new codex. I do applaud them for expanding the play style and fluff and introducing new elements. 

I'm just pointing out that there were some awesome, unexplored opportunities that I'm sad to not see come to fruition. I'm not necessarily trying to deride the full blown-Egyptian theme of the new fluff, but I have really no other way or words to describe it in. Yes, I realize that the rallying cry of the die-hard old Necron lovers was the whole "TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAAAAAACE", but that's not the aura I'm trying to give off.


----------



## Akatsuki13

Zion said:


> Personally I'm voting for the fun.


Here here!:drinks:


----------



## GabrialSagan

Zion said:


> My point is there is more than the obvious there. Emotions are chemical cocktails dancing across synaptic gaps, being machines they don't necessarily have such things (and if they do that would make them a bit odder than the normal robots I think, and more alien to us). So how "real" are these emotions?


How real are your emotions? The right drugs can alter your emotions any way the chemicals are designed to. All feelings are subjective, they are real because they are real to the person feeling them, why the person is feeling them does not matter. Necrons have emotions. Those emotions are generated by their mindstate which is housed in a physical substrate. Whether that substrate is synthetic or organic is simply semantics so long as the emotions have effects on the behavior of the being feeling them.


----------



## ckcrawford

Stephen_Newman said:


> I prefer the new fluff in most cases. It expands on the Necrons we know and love, makes the C'tan more believable to field on the table (rather than being described as these living Gods that would be snipered by my Pathfinders over 2 rounds every game I saw one). Also having certain Necrons have mild personalities is not so unbelivable. I am reasonably sure that it existed in some level in the old codex and people's armies.
> 
> What I don't like is the way the C'tan were defeated by the Necrons. It makes the C'tan look like complete halfwits and I am reasonably sure one does not become an all round super villain by vastly underestimating their minions. I am pretty sure the following conversation never came up between the C'tan:
> 
> Deceiver: You know if I was these guys I would be super pissed about it.
> 
> Nightbringer: I can agree with that. How would we stop them though.
> 
> Void Dragon: We could implement some simple software based off something like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics.
> 
> Outsider: Yeah. Not to mention it would stop *some* of us controlling them against the rest of us.
> 
> Deceiver: Why is everyone looking at me?
> 
> If I were to analogise it it would be comparable to modern day society being overrun and controlled by our coffee makers (no offense to coffee makers intended). It just sounds so ludicrous and unlikely to me.


I really think part of it was GW screwing up and putting them in the table top in the first place. I remember the only way to stop them in combat for the longest time was to upgrade the heck out of a Daemon Prince with Dreadaxe. The C'tan are essentially god-like in many ways... and that perspective hasn't changed for the most part... only the fact that they are somewhat retarded by the necrons pulling some kind of S'tan "shard" out of their ass and cutting them into pieces. But hey... it still works. 

@ Zion, I completely agree with you in terms of how the Necron emotions and such don't make sense. The Necrons are essentially the parents of the galaxy and they look like they are fighting like children still, despite everything they have been through they aren't really better.


----------



## Zion

ckcrawford said:


> @ Zion, I completely agree with you in terms of how the Necron emotions and such don't make sense. The Necrons are essentially the parents of the galaxy and they look like they are fighting like children still, despite everything they have been through they aren't really better.


That was kind of the point, but I think it adds another level to their personal cybernetic hell too. Even for all their greatness they are bound to programming and memories that may not even be true, damning them to suffer even more.

But that's just a thought on how it could be used to make sense.


----------



## Lepaca

Too me the new Necron fluff is one of the FEW good thinks Matt "the dreadful" Ward ever wrote.

I like how it gives players the chance to have a more individualised army in contrast to the uniform and really quite boring (they were more or less invincible after all) old fluff.

Also somehow he managed to make the Necrons a less tragic (they overthrew the C'Tan after all) and more tragic (Necrons can now be permanently destroyed, no new Necrons are made therefore Necrons are a dying race) race at the same time.

Furthermore I never thought the old C'Tan were "Lovecraftian Horrors" that is what the Chaos Gods are. The C'Tan aren't even extra-dimensional, only immensly powerful energy-based lifeforms that feed on energy.


----------



## kwak76

I think the new fluff for the Necron is better. I'm surprise that GW has the liberty to change fluff like that but I guess anything is possible.

Something is telling me that they might do that to the tyranids in the future.


----------



## Zion

kwak76 said:


> I think the new fluff for the Necron is better. I'm surprise that GW has the liberty to change fluff like that but I guess anything is possible.
> 
> Something is telling me that they might do that to the tyranids in the future.


GW -always- has the liberty to change their fluff radically and drastically. It's theirs after all.


----------



## kwak76

Zion, 

I'm curious to know if GW will change some of the fluffs that became canon.
Like Ferrus Manus coming back to life or not really dead. I only wonder that because I think just like comics books they sometimes revive the dead or do something drastic .


----------



## Iron Angel

GabrialSagan said:


> If their were loyalists, they are loyalists because they choose to be. That is the point, before the retcon Necrons were machines, cold logical, unfeeling. They were automated harvesters with all the compassion of a farm tractor or a predator drone.
> 
> Now they are metal people. They have wants and beliefs. They think, feel and desire. They can be reasoned with, bribed, even made to feel sympathy (albeit the last one seems highly unlikely).
> 
> They went from being Terminators to Deceptacon.


Exactly how far does a brainwashed entity's free will stretch though? If anything this thought makes them more tragic- They have the ability to be free, but do not wish to be and do not possess the means to be. Even those that "freed" themselves are still only brainwashed to think they are free when in fact they are not. The machinations of the Deceiver are bottomless. Who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes?


----------



## Zion

Iron Angel said:


> Exactly how far does a brainwashed entity's free will stretch though? If anything this thought makes them more tragic- They have the ability to be free, but do not wish to be and do not possess the means to be. Even those that "freed" themselves are still only brainwashed to think they are free when in fact they are not. The machinations of the Deceiver are bottomless. Who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes?


At least three bends, but it stops unless you take the red pill. :grin:



kwak76 said:


> Zion,
> 
> I'm curious to know if GW will change some of the fluffs that became canon.
> Like Ferrus Manus coming back to life or not really dead. I only wonder that because I think just like comics books they sometimes revive the dead or do something drastic .


Honestly I don't think they're going to change the Heresy too much further (they've already done so a bit, like replacing a Guardsman standing up to Horus to protect the Emperor to a Custodes) but you never really know. They have full control over their universe and freely use that to add things in all the time.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Zion said:


> GW -always- has the liberty to change their fluff radically and drastically. It's theirs after all.


Depends on what country you are in. They own their fluff in the US and UK but they do not own the fluff in China or Japan.

Edit: actually I double checked and GW only has exclusive control of their fluff in the United States and Canada.


----------



## Zion

GabrialSagan said:


> Depends on what country you are in. They own their fluff in the US and UK but they do not own the fluff in China or Japan.
> 
> Edit: actually I double checked and GW only has exclusive control of their fluff in the United States and Canada.


So you're saying the company that writes their own fiction inside of their rulebooks doesn't have creative control of it it outside of two countries? How does that work?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> Depends on what country you are in. They own their fluff in the US and UK but they do not own the fluff in China or Japan.
> 
> Edit: actually I double checked and GW only has exclusive control of their fluff in the United States and Canada.


Utter bollocks.

Copyright extends the world over. The only thing that varies is the statutory avenues that you have to protect that copyright.


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## kwak76

Well....speaking about fluff ....GW might change more fluff base upon popular demand. It's a publicly traded stocks and money talks. I know for the purist might prefer no changes but I would like to some changes in the fluff.


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## Jacobite

GabrialSagan said:


> Depends on what country you are in. They own their fluff in the US and UK but they do not own the fluff in China or Japan.
> 
> Edit: actually I double checked and GW only has exclusive control of their fluff in the United States and Canada.












Seriously? What the hell are you talking about?


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## Svartmetall

GabrialSagan said:


> actually I double checked


With what, the back of a Corn Flakes packet?


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## Akatsuki13

GabrialSagan said:


> Depends on what country you are in. They own their fluff in the US and UK but they do not own the fluff in China or Japan.
> 
> Edit: actually I double checked and GW only has exclusive control of their fluff in the United States and Canada.


----------



## klaswullt

The fluff should be Black vs Black and pitch black
and the playing and painting should be 
the positive release. 
So no humanization or optimism in any fluff.
I think that the only optimism or humanization side in the fluff
should be when you paint and play the army.
Except for the Ork, who are comic release in their fluff.
Otherwise comic release makes sense when you play instead.
The positive stimuli is in the joy of playing because
when you are the badass its less scary 
and everyone should be allowed to believe
that their model army is the moral exception somehow
just because of the time and love spend painting them.
But the fluff should be Black vs Black and pitch black.

About necrons in specific.
Maybe some Necrons can be sentient and self-aware
but they shouldn't have inner conflict
and they should only mediate the C'thans
will or have personalities that are genuine scary,
preferable personifications of death and horror.
The fun part, the comical release, the black comedy
and the optimism that is when you try play your army which is so grim dark and badass
and it might turn out very different.

The new codex fluff, doesn't expand on the concept
it breaks with it to much and the new fluff is worse than the old fluff.
It adds so much retconning without rule of cool or without rule of scary
so my suspense of disbelief is dead.
Villains scary level decays with a lot of unnecessary
characters without important stories
with lots of impassable powers, back stories
with no other purpose than making the reader love the
characters.

1. Horrible childhood/backstory that excuse their evil.
2 
A super cool deus ex machia super characters
that free the necron without any connection the plot.

3. make the new nercon super powerful so people
think they are coool, 
4. cosmic horror in a can, not so bad, they are bad so 
against all ods the cosmic horror are in jail now.
5. there is no sense of hubris or playing with the uncontrollable force
when the Necron imprison and use the C'than shards.
its just lame karmic victory.
6. unwanted security and hope. evil necrons are damaged
and good necrons are fully repaired. 



They had MORE personality being soulless than the very generic and stereotypical
personalities they have now.
The old fluff, invited a lot of story potential, just think LOVECRAFT.
The Omnisiah was potentially the void dragon, there where Cthan on Mars
and the tech priests of mankind where influenced by it.
In the new codex they removed the Pariahs, who where the more human necrons.

If I wanted the new concept which I don't, they
should just have introduced a sligthly more benevolent C'than 
who didn't want to kill all live but rule it instead.
Could be the the VOID DRAGON.

The free Necron could be the necrons controlled by a dead C'than
instead of idiotically deciding that the bad necrons are the malfunctioning ones
and the good necrons are the fully repaired.
What I really wanted to see was Men of Iron renegades and Tech priest
pariahs in the Necron Codex.


The hole its a tombworld or someone brings necron relic somewhere, plot
was good enough.
The free C'than shards loose their cosmic horror status becouse they can be controled,
they are just renegades from a prison and the "good' nercons are their guards which gives a unwanted feeling of security.
What I really hate is the new fluff for each troop type
and all the new C'than that are introduced such as the Flayed One
that just villain decay because they show up without good reason.


----------



## Zion

Klaswullt, you seem to have skipped some of my posts so let me recap for you:

Old vs New Fluff:
It's all a matter of taste. No one is wrong.

Fluff Canon:
All fluff is officially true and false. Pick what you like, ignore the rest.

Quality of the Fluff:
It's GW, they're not professional authors but are game developers who write about cool ideas they have. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Don't be too hard on them.

Changing Fluff:
GW has 100% creative control of their fluff. They can do what they want with it, even if you, me or someone else doesn't like it. It's just something we have to accept.

Bitching about Fluff being "Wrong" or "Bad":
The setting is a lot like a playground, we can sit here and bitch about how the swings squeak or we can go play with something else we like. 

That isn't to say that we can't complain about fluff being of a low standard, but to continue to beat that dead horse (in this case, after six pages) doesn't make you "win" anything. It just leaves us with a really messy looking dead horse.

tl;dr: You don't have to acknowledge the new fluff, you can even ignore the fact that the Necron Characters have names. Just play what you like and how you like. The only person keeping you from having fun in the end is you.


----------



## klaswullt

So.. why not use the old Codex?

Well, the fluff in the cannon is important to some degree.
It's a shared experience if everyone use the same fluff.
Another thing is, 
the fluff is what sells and what you buy 
can't buy the rules without fluff.
But you can borrow a friends codex.


----------



## klaswullt

Of course we should bitch and moam,
we can't just stop arguing like that.
Sure everything is subjective, and if someone likes
this then they like that.
Saying everything goes, doesn't really make
anything seem more interesting.
Its hard to express any opinion
without arguing for it.


----------



## Akatsuki13

klaswullt said:


> The fluff should be Black vs Black and pitch black
> and the playing and painting should be
> the positive release.
> So no humanization or optimism in any fluff.
> I think that the only optimism or humanization side in the fluff
> should be when you paint and play the army.
> Except for the Ork, who are comic release in their fluff.
> Otherwise comic release makes sense when you play instead.
> The positive stimuli is in the joy of playing because
> when you are the badass its less scary
> and everyone should be allowed to believe
> that their model army is the moral exception somehow
> just because of the time and love spend painting them.
> But the fluff should be Black vs Black and pitch black.


First off I'll respond to rest later when I have time, unless someone else comments and more or less expresses my feelings but this part here draws my attention and demands a respond.

Second you must have been a Tau hater from the moment they were introduced cause they are about lightest of the factions in 40k. Where do they fit into your notion of Black vs Black and pitch black fluff?

Thirdly how does your notion of 'everyone should be allowed to believe that their model army is the moral exception somehow just because of the time and love spend painting them' fit with the Tyranids, the aliens whose sole purpose is to kill and consume? Or the Dark Eldar who are utterly selfish, hedonist and sadistic? Or the Forces of Chaos? How can any army of those factions be the 'moral exception' to your Black fluff notion?

40k has always been grim _dark_, not a black universe. Why? Because a pure black setting would be just abysmally bleak and depressing. And rather than everyone being varying degrees of asshole in a bad place everyone would equally be an asshole in a hopeless galaxy. It wouldn't matter what the Imperium does because they're screwed no matter what they do and they're no better any of the other races/factions they're fighting against. The Tau wouldn't be the young, naive idealists trying to unify the galaxy, they'd be iron-fisted communists seeking to dominate everyone else.

Basically we'd have a universe populated by villains if there wasn't some light in the universe.

Finally how does the tone of the universe have _anything_ to do with the old Necron fluff vs new Necron fluff? I don't recall much of tone lightening in the new Codex save perhaps that they are no longer solely a legion of mindless machines bent on harvesting all life in the galaxy. At their lightest the Necrons seek to reconquer the galaxy and enslave some of the young races while exterminating the rest.


----------



## Zion

klaswullt said:


> So.. why not use the old Codex?
> 
> Well, the fluff in the cannon is important to some degree.
> It's a shared experience if everyone use the same fluff.
> Another thing is,
> the fluff is what sells and what you buy
> can't buy the rules without fluff.
> But you can borrow a friends codex.


I think you're missing what I'm saying. All that stuff in front of the section that tells you what's allowed to be taken in your army? You can ignore anything there you don't agree with (outside of any rules and wargear). You don't like Imotek? Don't use him, and pretend he doesn't exist. 

You're getting so caught up in what's right and what's wrong in the fluff you're making it impossible to enjoy yourself. You want C'Tan serving Necrons with no souls, minds, ect? Build an army to reflect that and just explain it if anyone asks. You don't have to build one of the new dynasties after all.

The fluff is there to give you ideas, inspire you to build certain things and generally give you an idea why X character is better than his Generic Counterpart (outside of having more bling on his model). You don't have to pay attention to any of that if you don't like it, it's not there to get in the way of the models or the game so getting to worked up over it doesn't help you any, in fact it actually hurts you because it keeps you from enjoying something that you could be having fun with.


----------



## klaswullt

*Black vs Black*



Akatsuki13 said:


> First off I'll respond to rest later when I have time, unless someone else comments and more or less expresses my feelings but this part here draws my attention and demands a respond.


I am much obliged.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Second you must have been a Tau hater from the moment they were introduced cause they are about lightest of the factions in 40k. Where do they fit into your notion of Black vs Black and pitch black fluff?


Well, they are problematic for me. I have ideas for how their fluff should be.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Thirdly how does your notion of 'everyone should be allowed to believe that their model army is the moral exception somehow just because of the time and love spend painting them' fit with the Tyranids, the aliens whose sole purpose is to kill and consume? Or the Dark Eldar who are utterly selfish, hedonist and sadistic? Or the Forces of Chaos? How can any army of those factions be the 'moral exception' to your Black fluff notion?


I can think of billions of subtle ways. It's an irrational thing.
They can be pitch black or lighter shade of dark, some even make their chaos darker shade of grey.
Here are some of the lame but (common I think) excuses.

Tyranids: they cant be evil because they are just animals besides they are the next step of evolution,
so killing is actually a good things.
Chaos: Tormented anti hero and chaos is also freedom and
some good or neutral things. Chaos is the emotions of mankind and the warp.
Dark Eldars: well lots of players feel sympathy for the hedonism bit
and downplay/ignore the sadism bit.
Basically they imagine them as hedonistic death metal
fetish sex object. 
Others see them as the remnants of true Eldar civilization.





Akatsuki13 said:


> Basically we'd have a universe populated by villains if there wasn't some light in the universe.


That is what it is. All sides are evil sides.
That way it is ideal for war games, as you concentrate on the killing
plus anything goes.




Akatsuki13 said:


> 40k has always been grim dark, not a black universe. Why? Because a pure black setting would be just abysmally bleak and depressing. And rather than everyone being varying degrees of asshole in a bad place everyone would equally be an asshole in a hopeless galaxy. It wouldn't matter what the Imperium does because they're screwed no matter what they do and they're no better any of the other races/factions they're fighting against. The Tau wouldn't be the young, naive idealists trying to unify the galaxy, they'd be iron-fisted communists seeking to dominate everyone else.


40k has been very close to that and should be a "darkness induced apathy" universe with no hope.
I want it to be exactly what you describe. For the its the sole appeal.
Otherwise you have a sliding scale dark grey versus pitch black, anti heroes against more evil complete monster.
I really don't like sliding scales of grey, they just as boring as black vs white.
Who is grey or dark is subjective, its your faction and its belief against everyone else.

Actually I don't like the idea of justifying the Inquisition in w40
by having Chaos or the Orks as the bigger evil.
The Tau are iron fisted communists, the greater good can justify anything.
The Tau lack individuality that is for sure, its an caste system
where they are brainwashed by telepathic nobles.





Akatsuki13 said:


> Finally how does the tone of the universe have anything to do with the old Necron fluff vs new Necron fluff? I don't recall much of tone lightening in the new Codex save perhaps that they are no longer solely a legion of mindless machines bent on harvesting all life in the galaxy. At their lightest the Necrons seek to reconquer the galaxy and enslave some of the young races while exterminating the rest.


Someone said the fluff in the necron didn't need to be so black
because they can be black when you play them..
I responded that it is the other way around, 
they should be black in the fluff and 
more fun for fun when you play them.
Negative back story with positive release in the fighting.



Actually I totally agree with Zion.
and I am not that upset that I can't play the game.
I just want to voice and celebrate the fluff I think is
best and get a clue how people can possible like the new fluff.
I apologize if might have been to emotionally opinionated.
Besides we did get several interesting ideas of how the fluff could have been
and sharing ideas is fun.
But what is this thread named?


----------



## GabrialSagan

Jacobite said:


> Seriously? What the hell are you talking about?


I am talking about the Law.


GW owns the copyrights on all the material that they produce, pursuant to the copyright laws of the various countries that they publish and distribute in. Copyright is a funny thing because one can own the expression of an idea but not the idea itself. This means that if you wrote an original Warhammer 40k novel that did not directly lift any lines from a previously copyrighted work and published it in Japan, you could sell copies and make money in the Japanese marketplace provided you do not violate any of GWs trademarks (copyright and trademark are very different fields of law and international trademark law is far more universally codified and enforced.)

Now here is where the US and Canada come into it. 

Pursuant to 17 USC 106(2) of the United States federal statutes and section three of the Copyright Act of Canadian, authors in those countries have the right to control "derivative works" based on their copyrighted material, provided that the derivative work does not fall into the fair use doctrine codified by by 17 USC 107. Meaning that that same novel that is legal in Japan cannot be published in the United States. 

That is the Law. If you don't like it write to your congressman.


----------



## Zion

klaswullt said:


> Actually I totally agree with Zion.
> and I am not that upset that I can't play the game.
> I just want to voice and celebrate the fluff I think is
> best and get a clue how people can possible like the new fluff.
> I apologize if might have been to emotionally opinionated.
> Besides we did get several interesting ideas of how the fluff could have been
> and sharing ideas is fun.
> But what is this thread named?


Liking the fluff you like is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. But you were coming across as brow-beating people for liking what they like and that isn't alright.

The thing is tastes are different. I love the GW Exorcist for it's over the top nature while others prefer the more militant look of the FW one. No one is wrong as long as we don't punish ourselves or each other for our preferences.

The thread is entitled as an "Old vs New" sort of thing, but in the nature of the forum rules, and being good people we need to keep this a discussion not a debate. Internet debates turn into flame wars as everyone scrambles to defend their opinion and then no one wins.



GabrialSagan said:


> I am talking about the Law.
> 
> 
> GW owns the copyrights on all the material that they produce, pursuant to the copyright laws of the various countries that they publish and distribute in. Copyright is a funny thing because one can own the expression of an idea but not the idea itself. This means that if you wrote an original Warhammer 40k novel that did not directly lift any lines from a previously copyrighted work and published it in Japan, you could sell copies and make money in the Japanese marketplace provided you do not violate any of GWs trademarks (copyright and trademark are very different fields of law and international trademark law is far more universally codified and enforced.)
> 
> Now here is where the US and Canada come into it.
> 
> Pursuant to 17 USC 106(2) of the United States federal statutes and section three of the Copyright Act of Canadian, authors in those countries have the right to control "derivative works" based on their copyrighted material, provided that the derivative work does not fall into the fair use doctrine codified by by 17 USC 107. Meaning that that same novel that is legal in Japan cannot be published in the United States.
> 
> That is the Law. If you don't like it write to your congressman.


First off, tone it down before the mods get involved or people start turning this into a flame session. Your original post was very confusing and left us trying to figure out what you were talking about.

Secondly fluff has nothing to do with copyright. Copyright protects such things as the word Necron and the design of the Necrons but it has limits. Fluff on the other hand is the in-universe fiction on which the army's backgrounds are based. 

Third, GW is a company based in the United Kingdom. I'm -pretty- sure their copyright originates their and then they apply for additional copyrights in other countries to ensure their covered by the laws in those countries (at least that's what the Chapterhouse Studios case information seems to suggest).

Third, Jacobite is from New Zealand, not the US. He doesn't have a Congressman. Heresy attracts a lot of people from a lot of countries, so don't assume that we're all Yanks here (though I am).

Lastly, what does copyright have to do with the fictional back story of the universe? :shok:


----------



## Sothot

I don't really like the debate "old vs new Necrons" because if you read the previous codex back to back with the new one, it's an expansion of knowledge of the Necron race. The first codex was written from the Inquisition's narrow perspective while the next is written from the faction perspective. The Inquisition was left to assumption to fill in the gaps of how the Necron politics and war machine worked. 
While we can argue for 70+ pages in another thread about how the C'tan lore has been changed for better or worse, I don't really see the Necron lore as changing at all. We have just been given more information on how they work. I play my Necrons with the new book the same as I did the old- Servants of the C'tan, reclaiming their lands and removing the trespassers. The new lore expands and benefits the C'tan, allowing me to use my own homebrew God and a better representation table-top: a sundered God-shard, of which many hundreds more pieces may be scattered about the galaxy. This makes the C'tan more powerful, for if the shard has this kind of power, what could the reformed deity be capable of? 
Just the opinion of a satisfied Oldcron player.


----------



## GabrialSagan

I did not mean to sound confrontational. Copyright law is sort of my thing. 



Zion said:


> fluff has nothing to do with copyright. Copyright protects such things as the word Necron and the design of the Necrons but it has limits. Fluff on the other hand is the in-universe fiction on which the army's backgrounds are based.


Words cannot be copyrighted. Words can be trademarked but only within a particular context. What I am saying is that if you wanted to write a story or create a new unofficial codex, you could publish that work in any country but the US or Canada, so long as you do not use any of GWs trademarks. In the context of a novel you are more than able to use the word "necron" to describe a race of machine warriors hellbent on extermination but you would not be able to use the stylized "Necron" Logo from the cover of the codex (assuming that GW registered the trademark with the British equivalent of the copyright office). 




Zion said:


> Third, GW is a company based in the United Kingdom. I'm -pretty- sure their copyright originates their and then they apply for additional copyrights in other countries to ensure their covered by the laws in those countries (at least that's what the Chapterhouse Studios case information seems to suggest).


You are more or less correct in this, US law applies in the US and UK law applies in the UK. The case you mentioned was settled out of court which means that it has no legal standing in an American Court. 



Zion said:


> Lastly, what does copyright have to do with the fictional back story of the universe? :shok:


Everything. What is fluff but literature written around a game? In the US and Canada only GW can publish fluff, in the UK and other countries ANYONE can publish fluff.


----------



## scscofield

So what? Anyone can write fluff, GW even encourages it. What does that have to do with the old GW fluff vs the new GW fluff? Because that is what this forum is about. If you want to discuss fluff made by someone other than GW we can have the thread moved to homebrew.


----------



## GabrialSagan

It was something of a tangent. 



scscofield said:


> Anyone can write fluff, GW even encourages it.


You really think that GW would just let people publish a 40k novel without first getting there permission and agreeing to pay them a licensing fee?


----------



## Jacobite

Well if what you are saying is true then as long as you don't publish it in US or Canada you should be fine.

I'll wait for you to do it first if you don't mind.


----------



## scscofield

This also has nothing to do with the Old GW fluff vs the new GW fluff.


----------



## Akatsuki13

GabrialSagan said:


> You really think that GW would just let people publish a 40k novel without first getting there permission and agreeing to pay them a licensing fee?


...Seriously?

On this very forum there's a section called 'Original Works' filled with fan written 40k and WFB yet GW has never moved to take it down or from other forums and fan sites with this fluff. Hell this whole site is loaded with fan fluff. There are all kinds of fanmade Rulebooks and Codices out there and no one has screamed copyright violation. Why does GW allow this? Because all that fan stuff is free. No one is making money off of it so it isn't a problem.

That's the kind of fluff he was talking about, not pirated material.

And how does GW's copyright have anything to do with this thread? Can we please get back on topic here.


----------



## klaswullt

What? are you serious. You can't be that soft handled.
People are just pissed because I am winning the discussion.
Yes, I can be sarcastic and mean, its impossible
to be civilized without a mean wit.

Discussion ARE debates!

It is not compatible at all with the old information.
It is obvious to see that it is an retcon.
The perspective thing was just an excuse.
In the two books they tell different stories,
who is the narrative is an common way for writers
to write a sequel that is totally different.
Its not just the background,
the units are completely changed and the new rules disgusting.
The Flayed Ones are now infected by a Cthan by the lame name
of The Flayed One, before they where related
to the C'than ideal.
The shards... are a huge and poor change.
I could be wrong but wasn't it from Ordo Xenos perspective.
The old necrons liked being undead, 
they though life was a misery, someone should put the living
out of their misery.
Now they don't like being undead.
The Necron Lords had a philosophy of death
now the Necron Lords just want power and gold.








Sothot said:


> I don't really like the debate "old vs new Necrons" because if you read the previous codex back to back with the new one, it's an expansion of knowledge of the Necron race. The first codex was written from the Inquisition's narrow perspective while the next is written from the faction perspective. The Inquisition was left to assumption to fill in the gaps of how the Necron politics and war machine worked.
> While we can argue for 70+ pages in another thread about how the C'tan lore has been changed for better or worse, I don't really see the Necron lore as changing at all. We have just been given more information on how they work. I play my Necrons with the new book the same as I did the old- Servants of the C'tan, reclaiming their lands and removing the trespassers. The new lore expands and benefits the C'tan, allowing me to use my own homebrew God and a better representation table-top: a sundered God-shard, of which many hundreds more pieces may be scattered about the galaxy. This makes the C'tan more powerful, for if the shard has this kind of power, what could the reformed deity be capable of?
> Just the opinion of a satisfied Oldcron player.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Akatsuki13 said:


> No one is making money off of it so it isn't a problem.


Exactly. If you are not allowed to profit off your work but GW is allowed to take it and profit off of it without compensating you, you are not the one publishing, GW is publishing the work that you are doing, which therefore means you do not own it. 

But as scscofield is apt to point out, this is all one giant tangent.


----------



## Iron Angel

klaswullt said:


> What? are you serious. You can't be that soft handled.
> People are just pissed because I am winning the discussion.
> Yes, I can be sarcastic and mean, its impossible
> to be civilized without a mean wit.
> 
> Discussion ARE debates!


----------



## Zion

GabrialSagan said:


> You are more or less correct in this, US law applies in the US and UK law applies in the UK. The case you mentioned was settled out of court which means that it has no legal standing in an American Court.


I'm going to ignore the rest because this right here is factually wrong. GW and Chapterhouse are still in litigation as we speak (here in the US no less) and are looking at having the case go to a trial by jury.



klaswullt said:


> What? are you serious. You can't be that soft handled.
> People are just pissed because I am winning the discussion.
> Yes, I can be sarcastic and mean, its impossible
> to be civilized without a mean wit.
> 
> Discussion ARE debates!


I'm not pissed with you, just baffled. Here you are trying to provoke people again despite us being fairly civil. 

And no, discussions aren't necessarily debates. You and I can exchange ideas, and walk away without ever trying to draw the each other over to our own view point. 



> *discussion * (dɪˈskʌʃən)  — *n *
> the examination or consideration of a matter in speech or writing





> *debate * (dɪˈbeɪt)  — *n * 1. a formal discussion, as in a legislative body, in which opposing arguments are put forward 2. discussion or dispute 3. the formal presentation and opposition of a specific motion, followed by a vote — *vb * 4. to discuss (a motion), esp in a formal assembly 5. to deliberate upon (something): _he debated with himself whether to go _ [C13: from Old French _debatre _ to discuss, argue, from Latin _battuere _]


As we can see, all debates are a form of discussion, but not all discussions are debtates.

And either way, if we don't keep this civil the Modhammer is going to come down for us breaking the forum rules.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> Exactly. If you are not allowed to profit off your work but GW is allowed to take it and profit off of it without compensating you, you are not the one publishing, GW is publishing the work that you are doing, which therefore means you do not own it.
> 
> But as scscofield is apt to point out, this is all one giant tangent.


Bollocks

If you're going to debate copyrights take some time to actually find out some facts.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Bollocks
> 
> If you're going to debate copyrights take some time to actually find out some facts.


Where did you get your Juris Doctor?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> Where did you get your Juris Doctor?


You don't need a formal qualification to simply read and understand legislation.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Zion said:


> I'm going to ignore the rest because this right here is factually wrong. GW and Chapterhouse are still in litigation as we speak (here in the US no less) and are looking at having the case go to a trial by jury.


You are correct. It was Paulson games that settled out of court, they were joined with Chapterhouse and settled separately. My apologies.



Magpie_Oz said:


> You don't need a formal qualification to simply read and understand legislation.


Well...you kind of do. But this is off topic and I don't want to make scscofield flip his lid.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> Well...you kind of do. But this is off topic and I don't want to make scscofield flip his lid.


Wrong again.

I have no qualifications in pure law however part and parcel of my profession is to provide my clients with professional legal advice, in fact solicitors often seek my counsel on particular points of law.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> I have no qualifications in pure law however part and parcel of my profession is to provide my clients with professional legal advice, in fact solicitors often seek my counsel on particular points of law.


In the US that would be a criminal act. I assume by your use of the term solicitor that you are British. Despite our common law heritage, copyright is one of the subjects were the United States has distinguished itself from the commonwealth.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> In the US that would be a criminal act. I assume by your use of the term solicitor that you are British. Despite our common law heritage, copyright is one of the subjects were the United States has distinguished itself from the commonwealth.


Wrong. People of my profession still operate much the same in the US as in AUSTRALIA

You assume wrong I am Australian. 

Wrong again as copyright legislations, while different in detail from country to country, all follow the basic principals are laid down by the Berne Convention.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Wrong. People of my profession still operate much the same in the US as in AUSTRALIA
> 
> You assume wrong I am Australian.
> 
> Wrong again as copyright legislations, while different in detail from country to country, all follow the basic principals are laid down by the Berne Convention.


Derivative work rights, like compulsory licenses, are not covered in Berne, though they are part of title 17. 
I did not mean to imply that you are English, only that you come from a nation that is part of the British Commonwealth and that sovereign is queen Elizabeth II.

So you are not a lawyer, you are not a US citizen. And you are lecturing me on American Copyright law.

So long tangent on copyright law aside.

A while back someone mentioned that Oldcrons suffer from the fact that they are unchanging, that this somehow makes them less intimidating then the Tyranids who are constantly evolving new forms to more efficiently kill people. 

The thing about Necrons that I always thought was interesting is that they do not need to change. There technology is so far ahead of everyone else that they are more or less the pinnacle of murder-based sciences. This zenith of death-tech is part of what makes Necrons so scary. They do not need to change because (from the POV of the C'Tan) they are the most efficient killing machines science can build.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> So you are not a lawyer, you are not a US citizen. And you are lecturing me on American Copyright law.


Pretty obvious you don't know the first thing about it.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Pretty obvious you don't know the first thing about it.


Cornell Law Review would disagree. As I said before, copyright is sort of my thing, when I was practicing US copyright law was my field of expertise. Granted I took myself off the rolls a few years back but I was published. Are you published?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

What's the link to your work?


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> What's the link to your work?


This was the 80's. I Shepardized by hand.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

nicely avoided, good work.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> nicely avoided, good work.



Why would I lie? What possible reason would I have? Do you really think I get my jollies from this? 

I do not pretend to know much about the intricacies of Australian law. I do not doubt that you are what you say you are. I know the US copyright code and until a few years ago I was keeping up with how it had been interpreted. Zion made a comment that GW owns (legal term) all fluff. 

I was just making the comment that that is only technically true in countries that have derivative work rights in their copyright codes, which last I checked was the USA and Canada. If the Australian copyright code has a derivative work clause in their code, please show it to me. If not then why are you arguing with me? Clearly we both know our stuff in our respective countries and clearly neither of us should be lecturing the other, if for no other reason than THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NECRONS!!!

I never argued that GW does not own everything they have published in every country they have copyrights in, merely that in countries where their are no derivative work rights people are allowed to publish their own original works derived from Warhammer 40k (My country being a clear example of a country where derivative works are not allowed).

So are you done?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Are you ?


----------



## GabrialSagan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Are you ?


I will take that as a yes.

The quote was:



GabrialSagan said:


> Exactly. If you are not allowed to profit off your work but GW is allowed to take it and profit off of it without compensating you, you are not the one publishing, GW is publishing the work that you are doing, which therefore means you do not own it.
> 
> But as scscofield is apt to point out, this is all one giant tangent.


You have an edit button, please use it. - darkreever


----------



## Magpie_Oz

So if I do it but make a loss or give it away free copyright isn't infringed?


----------



## Serpion5

Hello, first I'm gonna weigh in with a nice shut the fuck up about copyright law, that discussion belongs in its own thread.

Second, new fluff does not need to invalidate the old fluff. It is still very possible for necrons to be mindless automata if the player wishes. In fact the White Dwarf that was released at the time even included a piece of fluff about exactly that. A certain tombworld had malfunctioned, and the caretaker program had erased the minds of all the nobility. It then decided that this was far more efficient and dispatched its minions to assimilate other necrons and exterminate the living. 

So essentially, your oldcrons still exist alongside the newcrons. 

In short, this is the most pointless, retarded and overdone thread that 40k fluff has seen in quite some time and I was finally beginning to hope we'd seen the end of it. :suicide:


----------



## GabrialSagan

Even if there are mindless automata reminiscent of the oldcrons living side by side with newcrons. The C'Tan are no longer Eldrich abominations, they are sad little broken monsters trapped inside teseract cubes. They went from galaxy destoying elder gods to monochrome genies in a bottle. Which means that psuedo-oldcrons are not the footsoldiers of cosmic doom, they are just broken machines.


----------



## Serpion5

GabrialSagan said:


> Even if there are mindless automata reminiscent of the oldcrons living side by side with newcrons. The C'Tan are no longer Eldrich abominations, they are sad little broken monsters trapped inside teseract cubes. They went from galaxy destoying elder gods to monochrome genies in a bottle. Which means that psuedo-oldcrons are not the footsoldiers of cosmic doom, they are just broken machines.


Now you're ignoring the fluff about rogue shards. Shards that rebel. And those that were never captured to begin with. Each of which has potentially planet or star-ending power at its disposal. 

Good argument. Wording it deliberately to make them sound pathetic as opposed to the codex version of "near unlimited power." 

Well shit, you've convinced me.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Serpion5 said:


> Now you're ignoring the fluff about rogue shards. Shards that rebel. And those that were never captured to begin with. Each of which has potentially planet or star-ending power at its disposal.
> 
> Good argument. Wording it deliberately to make them sound pathetic as opposed to the codex version of "near unlimited power."
> 
> Well shit, you've convinced me.


I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am just trying to see this issue from all its angles. 

As you said, shards. Broken pieces, scattered remains. Powerful yes. But thematically still sad little broken pieces of once mighty deities.


----------



## Serpion5

Okay, now look at everything we just discussed and look at it from the Imperium's perspective. They know near nothing. To them, the necrons and the c'tan remain the unknowable cosmic terrors they've always been. We simply have another side to the story now. We, who exist outside and beyond the universe and its lore. 

The change does not matter in the slightest and only adds to what the necrons are.


----------



## Zion

GabrialSagan said:


> Zion made a comment that GW owns (legal term) all fluff.


I'm not bringing this up because I want to bring back copyright arguments, but rather to make sure I'm being quoted correctly.

Here's what I said:



Zion said:


> Changing Fluff:
> GW has 100% creative control of their fluff. They can do what they want with it, even if you, me or someone else doesn't like it. It's just something we have to accept.


Creative control is a term to state that they person/company/ect in question has full control of what happens with the material, in this case the fluff. It wasn't a legal comment, it was a comment on them having the right as the creative team to change anything they see fit.



Serpion5 said:


> Okay, now look at everything we just discussed and look at it from the Imperium's perspective. They know near nothing. To them, the necrons and the c'tan remain the unknowable cosmic terrors they've always been. We simply have another side to the story now. We, who exist outside and beyond the universe and its lore.
> 
> The change does not matter in the slightest and only adds to what the necrons are.


You know, I made all these points a few times and got ignored for it, or told I was wrong. Maybe your luck will be better.


----------



## klaswullt

I am civil.
I am not trying to provoke anyone.



GabrialSagan said:


> Even if there are mindless automata reminiscent of the oldcrons living side by side with newcrons. The C'Tan are no longer Eldrich abominations, they are sad little broken monsters trapped inside teseract cubes. They went from galaxy destoying elder gods to monochrome genies in a bottle. Which means that psuedo-oldcrons are not the footsoldiers of cosmic doom, they are just broken machines.


I agree.
Now they are just exceptions.
I dont want any of the the new fluff whatsoever.
The necrons that are supposed to please both sides
really only please one side.

The shards are just not the same thing as Cthan.
What really turn me off is that some necrons
are broken and others supposedly better.
That and the hole I choose evil

OBS.
Apologizes to everyone!



Serpion5 said:


> Okay, now look at everything we just discussed and look at it from the Imperium's perspective. They know near nothing. To them, the necrons and the c'tan remain the unknowable cosmic terrors they've always been. We simply have another side to the story now. We, who exist outside and beyond the universe and its lore.
> 
> The change does not matter in the slightest and only adds to what the necrons are.


How can you say it doesn't matter?
What about the retcon of the Flayed Ones fluff, the destroyers fluff
and the disappearance of the Pariahs fluff
and the tons of new troops.
How does that add to the old fluff?



When the perspective thing is done by writers in novels,
they write the sequel from the perspective of a different
protagonists, then he who of course say the the previous book is all lies.
It's not the perspective that matters, it is the story.
The perspective is just a narrative device.

The narrative perspective can change somethings
but not the fundamental concept. 

I don't like the story in the sequel at all, and doesn't
tell the same story at all.

Adding, means to not contradict something.
This delete the basic concept and introduce a new concept
after a clean slate.

You have an edit button, please use it. - darkreever


----------



## Akatsuki13

Can this thread just be locked like the last one? Cause this has pretty much gone to the exact place, the vocal Oldcron fans ignoring the valid arguments of the Newcron fans while twisting the new fluff to support their largely personal arguments. It's not like this thread was ever going to go anywhere else, though the whole copyright argument that sprung up was perhaps one of the strangest tangents I've seen quite some time.


----------



## klaswullt

Akatsuki13 said:


> Can this thread just be locked like the last one? Cause this has pretty much gone to the exact place, the vocal Oldcron fans ignoring the valid arguments of the Newcron fans while twisting the new fluff to support their largely personal arguments. It's not like this thread was ever going to go anywhere else, though the whole copyright argument that sprung up was perhaps one of the strangest tangents I've seen quite some time.


Now you are cheating, you are just trying to silence us.
Why, both sides have points but must also have anti points.
You ignore my valid points, I could say.

Clearly you think, everyone who doesn't think the new codex
is so free for all and flexible and "have something for everyone",
are clearly ignoring your valid points, that are valid just for your side.

Twisting the new fluff?
How can you twist anything, don't think the shards
are the same thing as Cthan and I don't think broken necrons
are the same as the old ones.
I don't think the individual fluff of each troop type
are consistent, good, tasty or
in anyway generic or motivated.
At least they could have let the necron units be as they where.



It's not a hateful discussion, nobody has said anything racist, sexist
or posted commercial links or anything.

The copyright discussion, just took space and sabotaged
and served only to sabotage.
Threads are .. threads to discuss things.
Apparently this thread is not dead yet,
don't force it to premature death.


----------



## Zion

Akatsuki13 said:


> Can this thread just be locked like the last one? Cause this has pretty much gone to the exact place, the vocal Oldcron fans ignoring the valid arguments of the Newcron fans while twisting the new fluff to support their largely personal arguments. It's not like this thread was ever going to go anywhere else, though the whole copyright argument that sprung up was perhaps one of the strangest tangents I've seen quite some time.


Agreed. We've gone back and forth with the folks who like, or are neutral towards the new book saying "it's not THAT bad and there are still ways to use the old stuff" with people who prefer the old book firing back about how wrong it all is and refusing to even consider that they still have options.

Honestly this thread seems to be going nowhere and is just going in circles.


----------



## klaswullt

You can't just close it. 
Just because we disagree.
There are still new things to come up with and write.
Apparently you seem to think that the new codex is the neutral one.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Serpion5 said:


> Okay, now look at everything we just discussed and look at it from the Imperium's perspective. They know near nothing. To them, the necrons and the c'tan remain the unknowable cosmic terrors they've always been. We simply have another side to the story now. We, who exist outside and beyond the universe and its lore.
> 
> The change does not matter in the slightest and only adds to what the necrons are.


But I do not live in the Imperium, no one does. I have the benefit of a birds eye view of the 40k-verse. As does every single person who buys a codex because that is the way that codices are written, if GW wanted to start writing all their future codices with the intention of giving the readers an exclusively imperial perspective on the enemies of man in the grimdark future it would be quite a change.

But assuming that they are not going to retcon Necrons for the foreseeable future and assuming that future codices continue to give a general overview of their subject matter from an omniscient perspective then as a reader the Imperium's perspective on the matter is irrelevant next to the consumers perspective, the only perspective that counts.

From the perspective of the consumer, the omniscient perspective that is privy to knowledge that the ordo xenos does not have, Necrons went from being the automaton murder machines eldritch abominations who's only desire is to exterminate all life to a civilization of competing hegemonies all dedicated to the petty pursuits of whoever happens to be ruling over a particular tomb-world who are waking up after a long nap because deicide is exhausting. Some of those tomb worlds are still ruled by a mindless instinct for murder but those are the flawed and broken machines. 

I can see the virtue of allowing Necrons to have personality, if you intend to write novel series from the POV of the Necrons but personally having the Necrons mutilate and enslave the C'Tan puts them on a level of power so far beyond any other race in the 40k verse that it becomes hard from my omniscient POV to take any other race seriously. How can the Imperium defeat the Necrons, a race of god killers, when they cannot even finish off the Eldar?



klaswullt said:


> You can't just close it.
> Just because we disagree.
> There are still new things to come up with and write.
> Apparently you seem to think that the new codex is the neutral one.


Agreed. I have not made up my mind which I like more. I see virtues in both approaches.

You have an edit button, please use it. - darkreever


----------



## Zion

klaswullt said:


> You can't just close it.
> Just because we disagree.
> There are still new things to come up with and write.
> Apparently you seem to think that the new codex is the neutral one.


I think we've dried up this well honestly. Every point that has been made about the devs leaving ways in for you to play Oldcrons legitimately have been shot down. Even fan-fluff based ideas have been shot down. If every olive branch that is presented is going to get shot down, then why keep going at it? 

And you're right, I do have a fairly neutral look at the new codex. It's got stuff I like, stuff I'm less enthusiastic about, but I think it was done reasonably well, reads decently, and has things in it that make me think that the Dev team was trying to leave options in for those who wanted the old fluff still.

I've said my piece a few times now how players who prefer the old book can still enjoy the army with their new toys, so I'm not going to keep flogging that horse. In fact, unless I get dragged back in by something I'm just going to sit on the sidelines and watch the train wreck happen.


----------



## klaswullt

I have said this before, but have everyone forgot
about the poor flayed one and other units.
A friend of me complained that the new codex is totally unplayable
because of the new units
and he LIKED the back story of the race as a whole.


----------



## GabrialSagan

klaswullt said:


> and he LIKED the back story of the race as a *hole.*


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I know it was just a typo. But the pun is hilarious.


----------



## ckcrawford

Serpion5 said:


> Good argument. Wording it deliberately to make them sound pathetic as opposed to the codex version of "near unlimited power."


I always regarded this as referring to their potential power. Would it be safe to assume that a lot of that power has been lost during their sleep? Obviously the fight with a Nightbringer shard at the verge of death or the Emperor capturing a Void Dragon shard is evidence of this. 

As far as people saying that the old fluff still counts... I can see where _some_ fluff could truly be discussed and accepted, but if I started talking about C'tan and their scheme's to take over the galaxy, I feel that I would be quite limited to what I could say without sounding ignorant of the new fluff. As far as I could really go, is presenting the fact that they're "rebel shards." The problem I find is that when you try to depict a shard, there is no real defining depiction of what a shard really is. I mean, they can have unlimited power, they can be limited with their past memories, they can be over powered by necrons, then some can't be. Any novels that have been written about them would also have to be taken with a grain of salt. It obviously wasn't the author's intention to interpret the now "shards" that way. So much fluff is "valid fluff" that was actually created by mistake. The only person one can really convince when regarding old fluff is themselves. Yet it is still regarded as _valid_. I feel like thats like losing a game and saying you're a winner in your heart.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Can Necrons (either old or new) rebuild their forces? I get that they can teleport and repair damaged units but Necrons can be damaged beyond the capacity for repair. When that occurs can a new Necron be "birthed" in a tomb world or are there a finite number of Necrons?


----------



## Serpion5

klaswullt said:


> How can you say it doesn't matter?
> What about the retcon of the Flayed Ones fluff, the destroyers fluff
> and the disappearance of the Pariahs fluff
> and the tons of new troops.
> How does that add to the old fluff?


Perspective is very important. Let me give you examples. Under the old codex, Flayers and Destroyers had certain behavioural and battlefield roles. Their behaviour and battlefield application has not changed, but our understanding of it has. 

Pariahs were always a part of the C'tan's great plan, so a necron-centric codex would not feature them. But nothing stops you from fielding them and simply using the remarkably similar lychguard/praetorian setups. With a bit of homebrew they are easily justified. 

The old codex also stated that the true extent of the necrons forces was not known. We now have knowledge of additional forces, so no real problems there. 

The perspective is the only thing that SHOULD matter, otherwise where is the fear of Chaos? We as players understand that the Chaos gods are primordial currents of emotion that have coalesced into sentient entities of unfathomable power. Understanding what they are however does not change their threat as far as the mortal races in the 40k universe goes. It is the same with the c'tan, necrons, even the tyranids. 



Akatsuki13 said:


> Can this thread just be locked like the last one?


We decide that.  



klaswullt said:


> Twisting the new fluff?
> How can you twist anything, don't think the shards
> are the same thing as Cthan and I don't think broken necrons
> are the same as the old ones.
> I don't think the individual fluff of each troop type
> are consistent, good, tasty or
> in anyway generic or motivated.
> At least they could have let the necron units be as they where.


Sorry, but none of this makes sense, could you try wording it a bit better? 



GabrialSagan said:


> But I do not live in the Imperium, no one does. I have the benefit of a birds eye view of the 40k-verse. As does every single person who buys a codex because that is the way that codices are written, if GW wanted to start writing all their future codices with the intention of giving the readers an exclusively imperial perspective on the enemies of man in the grimdark future it would be quite a change.


You have a bird's eye view of Chaos. Orks. Tyranids. Yet nobody has complained that their appeal has been somehow diminished by knowing their inner workings as a race. 



klaswullt said:


> I have said this before, but have everyone forgot
> about the poor flayed one and other units.
> A friend of me complained that the new codex is totally unplayable
> because of the new units
> and he LIKED the back story of the race as a whole.


The backstory has been expanded from the player's perspective. In the universe however little if anything at all has changed. 



ckcrawford said:


> I always regarded this as referring to their potential power. Would it be safe to assume that a lot of that power has been lost during their sleep? Obviously the fight with a Nightbringer shard at the verge of death or the Emperor capturing a Void Dragon shard is evidence of this.


Really you can interpret this a few ways. Lack of power from a long sleep is possible, or as is suggested in the Nightbringer battle it could simply be that their memories are still rather hazy and incomplete. 



GabrialSagan said:


> Can Necrons (either old or new) rebuild their forces? I get that they can teleport and repair damaged units but Necrons can be damaged beyond the capacity for repair. When that occurs can a new Necron be "birthed" in a tomb world or are there a finite number of Necrons?


Yes, it is simply a matter of gathering resources much like any other race in order to construct new bodies. It is possible for a necron's mind to be permanently lost, but the loss of a body is largely inconsequential in most cases.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Serpion5 said:


> You have a bird's eye view of Chaos. Orks. Tyranids. Yet nobody has complained that their appeal has been somehow diminished by knowing their inner workings as a race.


Orks Chaos and Tyranids are more or less the same as they have always been. To my knowledge no other faction has been so radically overhauled.


----------



## Iron Angel

GabrialSagan said:


> Can Necrons (either old or new) rebuild their forces? I get that they can teleport and repair damaged units but Necrons can be damaged beyond the capacity for repair. When that occurs can a new Necron be "birthed" in a tomb world or are there a finite number of Necrons?


I figure its a bit like the Geth- The robot bodies are jsut that, bodies. When one body is destroyed the mind is transplanted into a new and identical body. For that all you need is raw materials.


----------



## ntaw

There's a lot of :laugh: in here. Also a lot of moderator editing.

I prefer to think of my army as zombots. That's zombie robots, one word. My overlord is the only one who knows what's going on, and that's because he's the one who woke up first and decided he was sick of explaining himself to his 'equals' so he wiped their minds and replaced them with elaborate subroutines for combat situations. Nobody cares about your galactic conquest like you do, right? I mean, good help is REALLY hard to find when you're the robotic aftermath of an ancient civilization awakening after millennium of slumber.

See? Fiction is easy to make what you want of it :grin:


----------



## Serpion5

GabrialSagan said:


> Orks Chaos and Tyranids are more or less the same as they have always been. To my knowledge no other faction has been so radically overhauled.


Dark Eldar. Kept a similar theme but were basically re-written. Lots of inconsistencies that were easy to interpret with the new fluff if you took a bit of time to think on it. 

I honestly do not see a problem and I do not understand how some other players can keep whining over it. Why the necrons in particular? 

It fluctuates between being hilarious and pathetic.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Iron Angel said:


> I figure its a bit like the Geth- The robot bodies are jsut that, bodies. When one body is destroyed the mind is transplanted into a new and identical body. For that all you need is raw materials.


When you destroy a geth platform all the geth housed inside die unless they have somewhere to go before termination. Geth are not their bodies, they just live in them. I got the feeling from the fluff that Necrons do not casually swap bodies like suits.


----------



## ntaw

GabrialSagan said:


> Necrons do not casually swap bodies like suits.


They can't just take prisoners and use their minds to fuel new warrior bodies?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Maybe they just pop into their local GW a buy a new box?


----------



## GabrialSagan

normtheunsavoury said:


> Maybe they just pop into their local GW a buy a new box?


Why do you post on fluff forums?


----------



## Arcane

ntaw said:


> They can't just take prisoners and use their minds to fuel new warrior bodies?


I was under the impression that the technology which changed the Necrontyr into the Necrons is beyond ancient, complex and most likely lost/destroyed by the sands of time. Besides, the Necrons are not looking for new metal bodies, they are looking for a race to enslave to regain their mortality.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

GabrialSagan said:


> Why do you post on fluff forums?


I only do it now and then, usually in a ham fisted attempt to bring people back down to earth and remind them that they are talking about plastic toy soldiers. 
While we all like to take this hobby of ours so very, very seriously, sometimes it helps to be reminded that it is, in fact, a kids game that we have for some reason or another been unable to put away with the rest of our childhood.


----------



## Serpion5

ntaw said:


> They can't just take prisoners and use their minds to fuel new warrior bodies?


No. They only use other necrons. Pariahs cannot be considered given that they were always associated with the Deceiver and must now be assumed to be the work of rogue elements. 



Arcane said:


> I was under the impression that the technology which changed the Necrontyr into the Necrons is beyond ancient, complex and most likely lost/destroyed by the sands of time. Besides, the Necrons are not looking for new metal bodies, they are looking for a race to enslave to regain their mortality.


It isn't said anywhare that I'm aware that the technology was lost. What is stated however is that more ostentatious necron lords will upgrade their bodies regularly. 

So essentially, loss of body is largely inconcsequential, as resources can be acquired to replace them. Loss of the mind is far more undesirable, equating to what is basically a permanent death.


----------



## Sothot

normtheunsavoury said:


> I only do it now and then, usually in a ham fisted attempt to bring people back down to earth and remind them that they are talking about plastic toy soldiers.
> While we all like to take this hobby of ours so very, very seriously, sometimes it helps to be reminded that it is, in fact, a kids game that we have for some reason or another been unable to put away with the rest of our childhood.



Great post. Nailed it right on the head.

Back into Necron/Nerd mode, it's also stated in the codex that if irreperable damage should occur to a Necron Lord, his consciousness will be held in stasis until such a time as a new form can be constructed. I take this to mean that at least the nobility are eternal, and the only way to completely destroy them is to destroy these "consciousness stasis cells" or whatever they may be. Each and every one of them the Lord is capable of being held in. No easy feat for the young races.


----------



## Iron Angel

GabrialSagan said:


> When you destroy a geth platform all the geth housed inside die unless they have somewhere to go before termination. Geth are not their bodies, they just live in them. I got the feeling from the fluff that Necrons do not casually swap bodies like suits.


Actually the fluff does state that when a body becomes damaged beyond repair, its mental signature (Its identity more or less) is beamed back to the nearest appropriate point and it is placed in a new body or it is stored until its old body is repaired. Page 211, BRB, bottom left paragraph. When bodies are terminally damaged the consciousness remains in storage until a new body is made. A Necron never "dies" per se. We can never be stopped. Death became a joke to us before your drooling forms were ever plucked from the primordial filth you wallowed in.

Oh, sorry.


----------



## klaswullt

GabrialSagan said:


> Can Necrons (either old or new) rebuild their forces? I get that they can teleport and repair damaged units but Necrons can be damaged beyond the capacity for repair. When that occurs can a new Necron be "birthed" in a tomb world or are there a finite number of Necrons?


In the old fluff:

They can repair all old necrons and never build a totally new Necron.
But they can build Pariahs from parts of immortals and humans.
Also they seem to be able to build scarabs and Tomb Spyders.


----------



## klaswullt

Magpie_Oz said:


> That does give the Necron a broader appeal tho' doesn't it.
> 
> If you wan them to be mindless automatons they can be. If you want them to be plotters and schemers that have actual personalities then you can do that too.
> 
> Everybody is happy. Except those that just want them to themselves of course.


I have said this before but;

You can't share the necrons. The hole experience of 40k is
the shared experience of that everyone follows the same fluff.

What everyone wants, is a style and a brand that never changes.
A purist absolute style, everything has to follow the same style.
Otherwise nobody can be sure what they are buying.


Sorry.
If everyone have different opinions of fluff,
there is no shared emotional experience
and there is no reason to buy the Codex.

Everyone you play with must be initiated into the same fluff.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

klaswullt said:


> I have said this before but;
> 
> You can't share the necrons. The hole experience of 40k is
> the shared experience of that everyone follows the same fluff.
> 
> What everyone wants, is a style and a brand that never changes.
> A purist absolute style, everything has to follow the same style.
> Otherwise nobody can be sure what they are buying.
> 
> 
> Sorry.
> If everyone have different opinions of fluff,
> there is no shared emotional experience
> and there is no reason to buy the Codex.
> 
> Everyone you play with must be initiated into the same fluff.


It will come as an enormous shock to you then to know that the Necron guys in my club share NONE of the concerns that some have expressed here and have decided that what you have written here is just dumb.

In terms of the on table experience fluff and anyone's particular view on it count for zero.
In terms of the 40k community, variety is the spice of life.


----------



## Serpion5

klaswullt said:


> Everyone you play with must be initiated into the same fluff.


Never once in near a decade of gaming has this ever been an issue. 

If players have different views of fluff they simply picture the game differently.


----------



## Akatsuki13

I have to agree with Serpion. I've gotten into all kinds of fluff discussions with players in my GW store and with people here on the forums. I remember particularly long debate we had a couple years ago after the novel Legion came out revolving around the true loyalty of Alpharius, Omegon and the Alpha Legion. One believed that during the Heresy and after it initially they were really Loyalists but have over time been corrupted and are mostly Chaos-aligned now. Another believed the same but that much of the Legion is corrupt there is a sizable core element of the AL that remains loyal and is acting from without to aid the Imperium in manner not unlike one of the theories around Cypher. A third claimed that the entire novel was a collection of truths, lies and half-truths spun by the Alpha Legion to further mislead and confuse everyone else.


----------



## SonofMalice

klaswullt said:


> I have said this before but;
> 
> You can't share the necrons. The hole experience of 40k is
> the shared experience of that everyone follows the same fluff.
> 
> What everyone wants, is a style and a brand that never changes.
> A purist absolute style, everything has to follow the same style.
> Otherwise nobody can be sure what they are buying.
> 
> 
> Sorry.
> If everyone have different opinions of fluff,
> there is no shared emotional experience
> and there is no reason to buy the Codex.
> 
> Everyone you play with must be initiated into the same fluff.


I have to jump in and say, in all seriousness and with no mockery, that I find the syncopation of your posts to be strangely charming. It was like reading poetry in some ways to me. 

Any way, I did have a bone to pick with you about this here. Everyone is sure what they are buying. A game/setting. If it never changes then where is the fun in that? I know we all crave certainty and uniformity to a certain extent but come now, this is a much more interesting way of seeing the universe. You can have your view, I can have mine, a third person a completely different one, and none of us are wrong (by the same token nobody is right either). It is just opinion really. Since 40k is about writing accounts as unreliable history one could make the argument that this isn't retconning so much as new information coming to light. Yes, you have as a player a bird's eye view of the setting but even real history changes all the time. It is shifted by new means of understanding old information or even by newly discovered information. Same thing here. 

I am sympathetic to your desire for a more cosmic horror vibe from the necrons but I see the new fluff as being much more engaging. I play my Necrons as slaves to a Ctan who is in the process of trying to reacquire enough shards to raise him back to his former level of power. These Necrons never speak, their lords are mere extensions of the Ctan's will (like ringwraith's really) and they attack and vanish with no warning. Sound kind of familiar? By the new fluff this is totally possible and I doubt any new fluff player will castigate me for not giving my force a dynasty name and having named characters. I have my tasty Lovecraft cake and I eat it with the yummy icecream of better game mechanics and options.


----------



## scscofield

I just boggle at the issue here. GW goes out of their way to stress building your own narratives. If you prefer the old fluff then so be it your army is the old fluff. You can even decide the new fluff is faulty machines and one of your armies main directives is to wipe it out. Or you could model all you crons with umbrellas and say the follow the all mighty Mary Poppins. It is your plastic army men, give them whatever story you want.


----------



## shaantitus

I have to admit i was displeased with the direction the new necrons took, but they are more competitive now, there is more variation and options and they can still be played as they were if you want. I am pretty happy with that not that i have had time to think about it.. 

How about we liven things up with a discussion on the concept of female necrons. It certainly works in the space marine threads..........


----------



## Deadeye776

normtheunsavoury said:


> I only do it now and then, usually in a ham fisted attempt to bring people back down to earth and remind them that they are talking about plastic toy soldiers.
> While we all like to take this hobby of ours so very, very seriously, sometimes it helps to be reminded that it is, in fact, a kids game that we have for some reason or another been unable to put away with the rest of our childhood.


 
Because people who either collect or read 40k come on here to be brought back down to earth? What would you like to discuss?The debt ceiling in the US or the situation in Mali? Get off your high horse. It's fun and it's the internet. Guys like representing the factions they like or testing their knowledge of fluff. So please, if things get a little hot for you feel free to turn off your computer and just realax. Everyone is having grown up fun here. 

To the other point of this being a kids game. Where to begin? A God Emperor who begins his reign by abolishing all forms of organized religion. I can see Nicklelodeon getting the tv slots ready now. How do you see the a legion like the Night Lords on Fox Kids appearing huh? Maybe in between showing them growing up as rapists and murderers, you can have some light hearted Nostroman riots and robberies. Oh maybe we can have a Slaaneshi kids hour on Cartoon Network. Can you imagine the Prince of Pleasure telling his favorite stories of blood orgies or what it's like to gang rape an eldar farseer's soul? Oh and I know parents will love the lessons in pride and perserverence that only the Blood God can teach. You imagine a little six year old going to school and yelling "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne!!!!!!" Sarcasm aside, letting anyone under, I'd say 17 read this stuff is you failing as a parent. The game might be with little figurines but I'm sure a creature like the Nightbringer is not something you want children looking into. I don't play the game but to my knowledge, they don't make a "40k for kids" line. Sorry, even the Orks are depraved sadistic monsters. The books aren't tales you want to read a child for bedtime unless you want him wide-eyed and horrified through the night.


----------



## scscofield

The cartoon network show things as 'bad' or worse than any fluff GW has. Much of it during prime kiddie hour.

Your post is a perfect example of what Norm was talking about.

Edit: much of your worse exampled is being removed from fluff. GW wants the kiddies to play.


----------



## Deadeye776

Your talking about the show "ADULT SWIM." It has shows like Family Guy, American Dad, and Robot Chicken. All shows not designed for children. Look at the rating. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings could be for children. Here's a list of the things you'd need to get rid of for this to be PG-13:

-The Necrons (in Any incarnation)
-Chaos (There's no way you could get Slaanesh in a PG Movie)
-The Fall of the Eldar (if you remember how it happened they went depraved, good luck trying to tone that down)
-The Tyranids 
-Certain Space Marine chapters (Night Lords, Emperors Children, World Eaters, Black Templars,Word bearers etc)
-Certain Primarchs (Conrad Kurze, Angron, Lorgar, Magnus)
- C'tan 
-Dark Eldar (The entire race is an NC-17 rating waiting to happen)
-The Emperor (The knock against organized religion and his strict adherence to the point of almost sanctioning Lorgar makes him controversially)
-Certain Aspects of the Inqusition
-The Warp (Taking into consideration of the controversy of the Emperors position on religion, having a concept that in this universe there's no heaven only different hells might make the G rating hard to get)


So to conclude you've basically got a story that is the Tau vs the Eldar is a fight for who get's the most teddy bears? Sounds great.


----------



## scscofield

Please point out non pg-13 content in the current codexs.

This thread is about the old vs new necron dex. At this point I own pretty much every dex since the Orcs. None if them contain material worse than what you see on cartoon network during after school hours. No I was not talking about adulr swim.


----------



## Serpion5

Topic. Keep to it. 

Whether or not the fluff is appropriate for kids can have its own thread please.


----------



## scscofield

True true, sorry.


----------



## klaswullt

Subjectivity is a good thing,
but it must be based on a common basic fluff that we all share.
Its not a recon until it is.
The codex fluff is basically literature, 
the text can be taken subjectively by the readers
but the subtext is not, you replace the writers subtext
with your own readers subtext.
I say it again, narrative perspectives are just narrative devices
so there are limits what you can do with a completely different perspective.
This means... that the old fluff is not just the Inquisitor perspective
and the new fluff is not just the Necrons own perspective.

The new fluff, does not merit a new perspective from the inside,
doesn't expand to the old, its not new information to the old.
You need emotional motivation for suspense of disbelief
here.
The only motivation to believe the new fluff have anything to do with the old,
, is reconciliation it with the cannon shared experience at all cost.
It's just not good enough.
Everything raise and fall with the shared experience.
Reading is a shared experience with other readers.



The game needs to be taken seriously.
A kids game is played without considering anything.
Its more like an adolescent game than a kids game.
The fun lies depend on a deeper engagement.
No, I can't take most games in such a superficial manner.
There are .. silly and humorous elements to the hobby.

Its already kid of childish as it is, should it be more childish
it would be brainless,


----------



## scscofield

Ok, do you like talk in other voices and make pew pew sounds when you play? I can tell you right now I have yet to see a guy who does more than casually discuss fluff while we move plastic back and forth on the board. Fluff is nice and all but it was never the reason I got into the game.


----------



## Garrak

As someone who got into the game because of the fluff (and I care more about what BL releases than GW) I like the new necrons. Yes they were scary zombie robots before .... and they still are. They simply have variety now. 

Fluff matters to me. It's why I play IG and have a remnant regiment with leftovers from all over the place and bits of equipment just as diverse (because they are given whatever is available and sent right back into the grinder). I always thought that the 'nids and the necrons had a massive problem.

They were NPC factions basically - no personality and nothing to give the gamer to make his own. Necrons now have an identity, I'm happy for them. They are still cold as space and scary as hell. Reasoning with them doesn't actually strike me as an option, since only the Lord and his fellows have any personality whatsoever (and their sanity is going to be debatable).

As for that whole BA alliance thing. Wasn't it that the nids were fighting the BA, the necrons decided the nids might be a problem later and so they went in, killed the bugs and left? And the BA were left going "Ok, what just happened?"


----------



## Serpion5

Garrak said:


> As for that whole BA alliance thing. Wasn't it that the nids were fighting the BA, the necrons decided the nids might be a problem later and so they went in, killed the bugs and left? And the BA were left going "Ok, what just happened?"


The Blood Angels were fighting the crons and the nids showed up soon after. The Angels and Crons quickly sorted a ceasefire between them to take down the tyranids. Afterwards, both sides were too battleworn to be sure of victory if the battle resumed, so they grudgingly decided to both withdraw. There was nothing buddy about it as the haters like to claim, it was simply situational.


----------



## Deadeye776

Really? Your sayin that immortal-souless cyborgs who are not organic at all were tired?They having lung trouble.....oh that's right they don't have lungs or a respiratory system.This is the crap I'm talking about. Us "haters" realize that when the Necrons first came out they were pretty much machines you'd have to wholey destroy to stop. Now your telling me that a battle has worn done killer cyborgs who defeated Star Gods? Again this making sense to anyone else? I'm gonna say this is the kinda "toned-down" crap these guys are talking about. 

Astartes getting worn out over the course of a long is one thing. Yeah they are post human but still have respirtatory limits. But the whole point of these creatures the Necrons is they were supposed to be souless unstoppable killing machines. Now they were "too tired" to fight the BA. Maybe some of this fluff is getting toned down, but not for kids. I think it's getting toned to make everything and one more human.


----------



## scscofield

Robots would base their battle readiness off of operational levels. If the mathematics of how much force they could bring to bear did not meet a set benchmark, withdrawal. This is a easy non mortal explanation of them bring 'battle weary'.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

As Scoze illustrates, the "haters" are really just suffering from a lack of ability to conceptualise or think outside of the pre-determined box. 
"Battle weary" can just as easily mean "tired and need a lie down" or "running out of batteries."

That's fine as, like I said before, we all of us are free to make our own determination on the fluff and how it is justified and whether or not we like it or prefer to make our own. 

Sometimes I think we are too quick to discredit something rather than take a moment to think of how it might actually work.


----------



## Serpion5

Necrons still require time and resources to effect repairs, and these are made more difficult in the midst of battle. Reanimation protocols are not infallible and a long grinding battle against one foe, then another (arguably more dangerous) is bound to take a toll. 

Failure of imagination does not make a winning argument.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

klaswullt said:


> You can't have both, not to me anyway.
> Not all these new Necron characters.
> 
> The only appeal with the Necron was that they where mindless zombies
> controlled by lovecraftian horrors.
> Just as the terminators in the Terminator movies,
> their only appeal is that they are the unstoppable apocalypse.
> 
> 
> The old one is the best, its all about C'than and their tragic servitor race.
> No inner conflict, no free will.
> The necrons are the big threat to all life in the universe, the end of all things.
> They are the third or fourth enemy that could unite Chaos and the Imperium.
> against a common enemy.
> They are classical Cosmic horror, played straight.
> End of discussion.
> 
> Their only equal is the Tyranids.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I liked with the new fluff, was switching Tomb World
> for Dynasty names.





Deadeye776 said:


> Wow. Man after my own heart. couldn't have said it better myself. The thing is that you've "humanized" the necrons. They use to be ethereal cyborgs serving nigh-omnipotent horrors. For fucksake it took a galactic dysonsphere to trap one of these things. The other is locked in some kinda warp prison that defies logic and reason on mars. Now? They've allied with the Blood Angels to stop the tyranids. Who knows, if things work out maybe they can team up to fight Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Republicans.


I agree with all of this. The Newcron fluff was a disappointing blow. I don't mean that in the usual, bittervet way of wanting to be special, "in the good old days". A lot of the "it used to be better" arguments are complete BS by people who want to feel like they're better than everyone else, but I genuinely don't feel like this is one of those. For my tastes, the Necrons were trammelled into a universal mould, turned into a generic sci-fi race with an Egyptian spin. Their Oldcron incarnation represented a tragedy made flesh (or, rather, metal), with immortal Star Gods and their toy soldiers treating the universe as a giant playground.

Now we've got another "soon to be a big threat", "slowly waking up", "looking to expand" race. The usual GW way of making it nice and even for everyone, without committing to radically altering fluff (like Abaddon always being stuck at Cadia, or the Lion always sleeping, or Tau "getting ready for the next expansion", or the Tyranids "fast approaching", or the Daemons "preparing for their next assault", or the various Imperial armies "rallied to launch a fresh assault", or the Orks "starting a new Waaagh Ghazkull"... see what I mean?).

GW changed the fluff of the Necrons for the sake of change, in the hope that breathing "fresh life" into the race would breathe fresh life into their sales. Yes, the new units and kits look very nice, but they aren't the same Necrons. It's much easier for them to create Tomb Kings in space (yes, had to be said) than it would have been to carry on with the traditional fluff, but expand upon it and really develop it. The Pariahs, for example, looked great. An expansion around that, with the more horror/creepy side of Necrons, along with their immortal masters, would have been awesome. The trouble is, that path was more difficult, so GW decided to tread the path of "enter-generic-race-name-here" fluff and Tomb-King-ify the Necrons. The fluff that originally brought me to collect them had been brutally murdered, and I very much doubt I would've started with them if they had looked like they currently do when I first looked at them.

I mean no disrespect to people who like the new fluff, but I simply do not like it. It represents one step forward and two steps back, with a few steps to the side to reach the closest cash-machine.

~ Darvy


----------



## Deadeye776

Failure of continuity doesn't justify bullshit. Your telling me that machines that literally were able to utilize a "light bridge" to bring sentient beings as old as the universe into liquid metal shells and then destroy them using the fundemental forces of the universe can't withstand one battle without needing repairs? I know the Tyranids are a mighty foe but to be honest I'm not sure what the hell the Necrons are doing fight them anyway. A species that exists to consume organic matter would want what with the Necron race? Necron "tomb-words" are already dead to begin with. Wasn't the original fluff that the hive-fleet was passing them by? So now because they can feel they are threatened by the tyranids?

When the fluff first started the Necrons had a technological edge on everyone with only the Eldar and a few others coming close. Your saying that they know do not have the tech to self-repair during battle and become worn and innopperable from use? So what's next? Maybe it turns out that they have souls as well? How about they actually have organic parts within their bodies. This is my problem. At no point in the terminator movies did you see Arnold stop because of damage. The horrifying part about the machines is that despite damage and ruin, the objective is what drives them. I loved that speech Michael Biehn gave Sara Conor:

"Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." -Kyle Reese 

That's how we use to view the Necrons.


----------



## scscofield

As said before, nothing stopping you from playing them that way.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Deadeye776 said:


> "Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead." -Kyle Reese
> 
> That's how we use to view the Necrons.


It heartens me to see I'm not alone!


----------



## Deadeye776

What part of they don't reason with anyone didn't you get? I can't really play them that way if there's a precedent of them coming to terms with enemies if they judge the situation dire enough. Necrons are afraid of death. Necrons fear pain. The tyranid threat they faced posed both and in a desparate move they combined with the decedants of the Old Ones they were sworn to destroy. If you look at what being a cold, calculating, killing, machine means that doesn't really fall into it. You think a horde of daemons would side with the Blood Angels if they saw the tyanids coming?

I don't think the Skulltaker or Angraath or any of the Daemon Primarchs would ever compromise and ally with their sworn enemy. The Necrons were supposed to be against the warp and what it represented on behalf of the C'tan. Now?They are just another army like the Eldar, Orks, or Tau. The Eldar and Tau have both been at odds with the human race. When the situation calls for it like a black crusade or tyanid fleet they unite out of need and desparation for survival. How are the Necrons any different now? YOu still haven't answered my question by the way. If the Tyranids are after organic matter to perpetuate their race, why the hell are they bothering with the Necrons and their dead Tomb Worlds. If anything the worlds they leave behind should be completely suitable to the Necrons as bereft of life. Rationally the Necrons should be aiding the Tyranids in clearing out all life because when that happens they will starve and the Necrons can move in. Hell the robot sentinels in the Matrix were more ruthless the the New Necrons. Once they breached the dock they attacked like a swarm. That's how I always saw the Necrons. Now they are the robot eldar.


----------



## scscofield

Or you say they are terminators......


----------



## Tarvitz210300

Personally I like the new necron fluff. The idea of the political intrigue of the royal courts really excites me and I find them far less bland then the old ones :biggrin: (old necrons I mean :headbutt. There race is still a tragedy; a people so desperate that they had to turn the the C'tan to save them. For the price of there humanity and their very souls. It turned the race from a society to an army and I remember this being the same in both books. 

I feel like new book gave so much more room for originality. If what you loved about Necrons is the mindless phalanx than the option is still open to you. Quick idea: the software reanimating the Necrons was faulty and wiped their minds instead filling them with only an urge to destroy or the destroyer cult had taken over fully this tomb world. Yet if you, like me, prefer the idea of having a cast of colourful characters leading the mindless robots than you can actually do that now and as such has given far more freedom


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Deadeye776 said:


> What part of they don't reason with anyone didn't you get?


They cannot be reasoned with, that doesn't mean they are without reason themselves.

Even the original Terminator told the truck driver famously to "Get Out" rather than simply kill him.


----------



## Serpion5

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Their Oldcron incarnation represented a tragedy made flesh (or, rather, metal), with immortal Star Gods and their toy soldiers treating the universe as a giant playground.


The tragedy is still there, just told differently. They were betrayed and robbed of their free will and souls. For many this is still the case. The difference is, somewhere along the line they managed some small form of vengeance. But if you look long term, with the necrons slowly delving into insanity, or losing the memories and sentience that made up the last echoes of who they were, their story is still very much a tragic one. 

Besides which, the oldcron army is still entirely justifiable under this lore. The difference is, it is no longer the ONLY option necron players have. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Failure of continuity doesn't justify bullshit. Your telling me that machines that literally were able to utilize a "light bridge" to bring sentient beings as old as the universe into liquid metal shells and then destroy them using the fundemental forces of the universe can't withstand one battle without needing repairs?


Comparing energy manipulation to physical armour is a pretty retarded argument. Gonna leave it at that. 



Deadeye776 said:


> I know the Tyranids are a mighty foe but to be honest I'm not sure what the hell the Necrons are doing fight them anyway.


Blood Angels were also there. Who were they trying to protect from the necrons to begin with? It isn't unreasonable (actually likely) that there was other human life on the planet that the tyranids and necrons had both set their sights on. 



Deadeye776 said:


> When the fluff first started the Necrons had a technological edge on everyone with only the Eldar and a few others coming close.


Nobody ever came close. Even now. 



Deadeye776 said:


> This is my problem. At no point in the terminator movies did you see Arnold stop because of damage.


The terminator is probably on par with an immortal for sentience. Single minded in its objective, and will not stop until it was destroyed. The difference is the terminator was an assassin sent against a target in a time where he could not be matched and he knew it. Immortals however, are soldiers and must view the larger picture. Also, many of their foes have adequate technology or numbers to present a viable military threat. 

Again, neither of these forces have ever been painted as invincible. Further, rules for morale in the oldcron dex justified falling back and retreating so I'm not sure where you pulled this argument from to begin with. 



Deadeye776 said:


> What part of they don't reason with anyone didn't you get? I can't really play them that way if there's a precedent of them coming to terms with enemies if they judge the situation dire enough.


Sure you can. That's what homebrew fluff is for. Say that your necrons are devoid of sentience and still worship a c'tan shard or two due to malfunction or shard intervention. Such a thing is well within the bounds of the current lore. The only thing stopping you is your own personal preference for bitching rather than using a bit of imaginative thought. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Hell the robot sentinels in the Matrix were more ruthless the the New Necrons. Once they breached the dock they attacked like a swarm. That's how I always saw the Necrons.


Then see them that way. You know what that scene reminds me of? The scene in _Fall of Damnos_ where Sicarius leads the charge against the undying. The sky is swarming with wraiths. And there are "terminators" all over the ground.


----------



## Iron Angel

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I agree with all of this. The Newcron fluff was a disappointing blow. I don't mean that in the usual, bittervet way of wanting to be special, "in the good old days". A lot of the "it used to be better" arguments are complete BS by people who want to feel like they're better than everyone else, but I genuinely don't feel like this is one of those. For my tastes, the Necrons were trammelled into a universal mould, turned into a generic sci-fi race with an Egyptian spin. Their Oldcron incarnation represented a tragedy made flesh (or, rather, metal), with immortal Star Gods and their toy soldiers treating the universe as a giant playground.
> 
> Now we've got another "soon to be a big threat", "slowly waking up", "looking to expand" race. The usual GW way of making it nice and even for everyone, without committing to radically altering fluff (like Abaddon always being stuck at Cadia, or the Lion always sleeping, or Tau "getting ready for the next expansion", or the Tyranids "fast approaching", or the Daemons "preparing for their next assault", or the various Imperial armies "rallied to launch a fresh assault", or the Orks "starting a new Waaagh Ghazkull"... see what I mean?).
> 
> GW changed the fluff of the Necrons for the sake of change, in the hope that breathing "fresh life" into the race would breathe fresh life into their sales. Yes, the new units and kits look very nice, but they aren't the same Necrons. It's much easier for them to create Tomb Kings in space (yes, had to be said) than it would have been to carry on with the traditional fluff, but expand upon it and really develop it. The Pariahs, for example, looked great. An expansion around that, with the more horror/creepy side of Necrons, along with their immortal masters, would have been awesome. The trouble is, that path was more difficult, so GW decided to tread the path of "enter-generic-race-name-here" fluff and Tomb-King-ify the Necrons. The fluff that originally brought me to collect them had been brutally murdered, and I very much doubt I would've started with them if they had looked like they currently do when I first looked at them.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to people who like the new fluff, but I simply do not like it. It represents one step forward and two steps back, with a few steps to the side to reach the closest cash-machine.
> 
> ~ Darvy


this post

this one

all of it

this post


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Deadeye776 said:


> At no point in the terminator movies did you see Arnold stop because of damage.


You need to watch those movies again, there were numerous occasions where the Terminator retreated to repair.




Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I mean no disrespect to people who like the new fluff, but I simply do not like it. It represents one step forward and two steps back, with a few steps to the side to reach the closest cash-machine.


So you'd rather stick with the old fluff and see them disappear altogether due to lack of interest/sales like the Sisters?


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Magpie_Oz said:


> So you'd rather stick with the old fluff and see them disappear altogether due to lack of interest/sales like the Sisters?


Absolutely not. But I'd rather they had put their creative efforts into making the traditional Necrons great, instead of shoving them aside.

I can think of something that would satisfy me, actually. The Deceiver. Of all the C'tan, he's the one who would escape the Tessarects in my opinion. If we could field the Deciever (as the real thing, not a Shard) and that by choosing him as an HQ (not a half-arsed, over-costed Elite!) the army-list options would become radically different, I would be happy. I would have my Star God army, supported by GW fluff and rules.


----------



## Deadeye776

> Serpion5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The tragedy is still there, just told differently. They were betrayed and robbed of their free will and souls. For many this is still the case. The difference is, somewhere along the line they managed some small form of vengeance. But if you look long term, with the necrons slowly delving into insanity, or losing the memories and sentience that made up the last echoes of who they were, their story is still very much a tragic one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, now we are supposed to find them sympathetic like robot Eldar.
> 
> Besides which, the oldcron army is still entirely justifiable under this lore. The difference is, it is no longer the ONLY option necron players have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing energy manipulation to physical armour is a pretty retarded argument. Gonna leave it at that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No what's retarded is saying that machines that are immortal and powerful enough to utilize forces beyond imaination in their tech would need the assistance of the fucking blood angels. While not all they have some of the shards of the C'tan as well as tech that dwarfs almost everyone else's. One minute they are defeating and imprisoning deities the next they need help from Astartes, that's retarded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood Angels were also there. Who were they trying to protect from the necrons to begin with? It isn't unreasonable (actually likely) that there was other human life on the planet that the tyranids and necrons had both set their sights on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again you've lost the point. The new fluff I read says that it's the Tyranid threat that had the silent king awakening his peopel. Care to explain why cyborgs would fear an threat to organic life?
> 
> 
> Nobody ever came close. Even now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The terminator is probably on par with an immortal for sentience. Single minded in its objective, and will not stop until it was destroyed. The difference is the terminator was an assassin sent against a target in a time where he could not be matched and he knew it. Immortals however, are soldiers and must view the larger picture. Also, many of their foes have adequate technology or numbers to present a viable military threat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, I don't see why the Necrons didn't just pull out and leave. They want dead worlds without life. If they'd let the Nids do their thing they would have gotten just that most likely. Why an alliance? It's like a knife allying with a cupcake against a fat kid, you know your not what he wants, why waste the time and effort?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, neither of these forces have ever been painted as invincible. Further, rules for morale in the oldcron dex justified falling back and retreating so I'm not sure where you pulled this argument from to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said the word invincible so I don't know where you pulled that from to begin with. I'm saying the way they were written was to be on par with the other Armageddon level armies such as Chaos and the Tyranids. You would never see Tyranids ally with Blood Angels to defeat a Tau expansion or even CSM's unite with Iron Fists to fight dark eldar. They hate each other and will never compromise. What's that line in the beginning of 40k about working together to solve problems was not an option?
> 
> Sure you can. That's what homebrew fluff is for. Say that your necrons are devoid of sentience and still worship a c'tan shard or two due to malfunction or shard intervention. Such a thing is well within the bounds of the current lore. The only thing stopping you is your own personal preference for bitching rather than using a bit of imaginative thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then see them that way. You know what that scene reminds me of? The scene in _Fall of Damnos_ where Sicarius leads the charge against the undying. The sky is swarming with wraiths. And there are "terminators" all over the ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I see the truth. They've been made into a regular army. Before it was easy to postulate that once they awoke their gods they could've turned on the plyons, defeated chaos, and doomed mankind. Now? They'll be lucky to survive the 13th Black Crusade. The C'tan are shards so while still extremely powerful, they are no longer the Materium counterparts to Chaos. They can be defeated. They were a people on a dying planet being killed by radiation from their sun. In jealous retribution they tried but failed to attack the Old Ones. In the end they made a deal with Lovecraftian horrors for Vengeance sake and brought into this universe creatures who embodied horror, deceit, madness, and oblivion. Now they are a former empire (like the Eldar) who are on the decline (like the Eldar) with a threat that might wipe them out (like the Eldar). Way to step out on the limb as far as imagination goes.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Absolutely not. But I'd rather they had put their creative efforts into making the traditional Necrons great, instead of shoving them aside.
> 
> I can think of something that would satisfy me, actually. The Deceiver. Of all the C'tan, he's the one who would escape the Tessarects in my opinion. If we could field the Deciever (as the real thing, not a Shard) and that by choosing him as an HQ (not a half-arsed, over-costed Elite!) the army-list options would become radically different, I would be happy. I would have my Star God army, supported by GW fluff and rules.


So you will be happy if your army gets and invincible God as a standard inclusion? Do I even need to point out how silly that is?

I'd be all up for that as long as I can have the Emperor on my side and I'm sure the CSM will be wanting a personal appearance from Khorne.


----------



## Deadeye776

> Magpie_Oz said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to watch those movies again, there were numerous occasions where the Terminator retreated to repair.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the movies. He never retreats. The escape them and he regroups to come at them another way. I'm talking about the originals like Terminator and T2. He also never says "He the cops are here and we are both wanted, wanna team up?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you'd rather stick with the old fluff and see them disappear altogether due to lack of interest/sales like the Sisters?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Like the Tau and most likely some Space Marine chapters? The concept was badass with many ways to take it. They took the easy road turning them into a lame race on the decline like the Eldar.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

> I have the movies. He never retreats. The escape them and he regroups to come at them another way. I'm talking about the originals like Terminator and T2. He also never says "He the cops are here and we are both wanted, wanna team up?"


Not to the cops no but if you recall at the start of the film a Terminator infiltrates the human enclave by blending in with a human patrol, so rather than mindlessly shooting everything it takes a reasoned approach for greater gain. Much in the same way the Necron do with the Blood Angles.


The Terminator withdraws to the apartment and performs surgery on himself, what is that if not repairing battle damage? 

Why does he utter the immortal line of "fuck you asshole" rather than simply kill the landlord when he asks if there is a dead cat in there?

All reasoned behaviour and breaking off to repair before attacking again.


----------



## Serpion5

Deadeye776 said:


> Again, now we are supposed to find them sympathetic like robot Eldar.


Find them sympathetic? No. They're not sympathetic at all. They're arrogant, condescending, spiteful and often insane. 



Deadeye776 said:


> No what's retarded is saying that machines that are immortal and powerful enough to utilize forces beyond imaination in their tech would need the assistance of the fucking blood angels. While not all they have some of the shards of the C'tan as well as tech that dwarfs almost everyone else's. One minute they are defeating and imprisoning deities the next they need help from Astartes, that's retarded.


The Silent King lead those necrons, and it has been established that his objective is to defeat the tyranids. The Silent King wants life to remain, because he sees it as his race's only hope to regain their souls. Nowhere is it suggested that his views are shared by all other necron lords. In fact, the mannerisms of Imotekh and Szeras suggest quite the opposite. 

It makes sense that he of all necrons would seek an temporary truce against the nids but where else is an act like this repeated? 



Deadeye776 said:


> Once again you've lost the point. The new fluff I read says that it's the Tyranid threat that had the silent king awakening his peopel. Care to explain why cyborgs would fear an threat to organic life?


Necrons are not cyborgs. Cyborgs are cybernetic organisms, containing flesh and machine alike like servitors. The necrons are entirely inorganic machines. 

And remember, only the Silent King sees them as a threat, and an indirect one at that. He wants life to exist. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Again, I don't see why the Necrons didn't just pull out and leave. They want dead worlds without life.


Except in this particular case. In a very general sense. 



Deadeye776 said:


> I see the truth. They've been made into a regular army. Before it was easy to postulate that once they awoke their gods they could've turned on the plyons, defeated chaos, and doomed mankind. Now? They'll be lucky to survive the 13th Black Crusade. The C'tan are shards so while still extremely powerful, they are no longer the Materium counterparts to Chaos. They can be defeated.


The pylons were close to failing even in the old dex. They were describes as slowly decaying under the strain of keeping the Eye closed, with many already inert. And the c'tan were ALWAYS able to be defeated. 

The 13th Crusade is nothing to them, most of their forces are all over the rest of the galaxy. 



Deadeye776 said:


> They were a people on a dying planet being killed by radiation from their sun. In jealous retribution they tried but failed to attack the Old Ones. In the end they made a deal with Lovecraftian horrors for Vengeance sake and brought into this universe creatures who embodied horror, deceit, madness, and oblivion.


This is still true. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Now they are a former empire (like the Eldar) who are on the decline (like the Eldar) with a threat that might wipe them out (like the Eldar). Way to step out on the limb as far as imagination goes.


Or like the Imperium? Or like the Dark Eldar? Or the Mechanicus? 



Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I can think of something that would satisfy me, actually. The Deceiver. Of all the C'tan, he's the one who would escape the Tessarects in my opinion. If we could field the Deciever (as the real thing, not a Shard) and that by choosing him as an HQ (not a half-arsed, over-costed Elite!) the army-list options would become radically different, I would be happy. I would have my Star God army, supported by GW fluff and rules.


And how would we fairly represent this on the table?


----------



## Akatsuki13

Wow... following this thread is like watching a man beat his head on a brick wall over and over again. I don't know if I should yell at him to stop or start laughing.

Also Deadeye I wouldn't say the Tau are on the decline, especially since they're getting an update this spring/summer, new Codex, new models, plastics models of some of the non-plastics and brand new Battlesuits.


----------



## scscofield

Those that hate or are angry about the new fluff. Could you please give me a reason as to why you just don't make your own fluff up? Why do you think your locked into what is in the book?


----------



## Akatsuki13

scscofield said:


> Those that hate or are angry about the new fluff. Could you please give me a reason as to why you just don't make your own fluff up? Why do you think your locked into what is in the book?


Like I said...

:headbutt::headbutt::headbutt:


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Serpion5 said:


> And how would we fairly represent this on the table?





Magpie_Oz said:


> So you will be happy if your army gets and invincible God as a standard inclusion? Do I even need to point out how silly that is?
> 
> I'd be all up for that as long as I can have the Emperor on my side and I'm sure the CSM will be wanting a personal appearance from Khorne.


FW has done a good job of representing the Primarchs, and the previous edition of the dex also did a good job of the C'tan. I think if you mixed a little of the two (ie: only useable where the C'tan doesn't take more than 25% of the army) and you made him very strong indeed, it wouldn't be silly at all.

@ scscofield: Because now we are in the same bracket as those with female Space Marines, or Grey Knights who use (unbound) Daemons as allies. The canon does not recognise us, the rules do not recognise us, and the entire army feel has moved, very firmly, away from us. We can make up our own fluff, but when the "Deceiver" gets killed by a few stray boltgun shots, or people say "but he's not really your HQ, is he?", it tends to feel a little hollow.


----------



## scscofield

So you don't field a god who is supposed to be Primarch( which are not legal in normal lower point games) or more in power as you HQ.


Meh whatever I should have ignored this thread pages ago. GW is going to change fluff anytime they want. They don't care if it works people up. They care about sales.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> or Grey Knights who use (unbound) Daemons as allies.


when does that happen?


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## Serpion5

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> We can make up our own fluff, but when the "Deceiver" gets killed by a few stray boltgun shots, or people say "but he's not really your HQ, is he?", it tends to feel a little hollow.


Maybe don't field "The Deceiver" then? Why would a god seeking galactic domination see the need to commit his entire self to a single battlefield when there is an entire galaxy's worth of events in need of manipulating, shifting the pieces to bring about his return? This is without considering the balance issues that have already been pointed out. 

Canon lists the Deceiver as among those broken, in fact is is stated and backed up in WD issues that no C'tan managed to escape the necrons' retaliation. I would place the Deceiver as the most likely to use this situation to his advantage. 

For example, your faction has several shards of his essence. Other factions sympathetic to the same cause have others. Via his being split across the galaxy, events are able to be manipulated to a greater degree of finesse, and one of the greater objectives can be to gather the remaining shards to reveal the full extent of the Great Work before its interruption.


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## Iron Angel

Serpion5 said:


> For example, your faction has several shards of his essence. Other factions sympathetic to the same cause have others. Via his being split across the galaxy, events are able to be manipulated to a greater degree of finesse, and one of the greater objectives can be to gather the remaining shards to reveal the full extent of the Great Work before its interruption.


Been reading my fluff, have we


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## Serpion5

Iron Angel said:


> Been reading my fluff, have we


Was that yours? :scratchhead:


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Magpie_Oz said:


> when does that happen?


I'm not saying it does, but I'm saying people who want to have their army like that can't. You said that I should just run my fluff as I want to, but the dex doesn't support me in that (and neither does the canon), just as the Grey Knight dex doesn't support daemonic allies (if some hypothetical person ever wanted to do that). It was an analogy, not a critical point of debate. :grin:



Serpion5 said:


> Maybe don't field "The Deceiver" then? Why would a god seeking galactic domination see the need to commit his entire self to a single battlefield when there is an entire galaxy's worth of events in need of manipulating, shifting the pieces to bring about his return? This is without considering the balance issues that have already been pointed out.


But that's just it! I _can't_ field the Deceiver any more, but I want to! I can perfectly well imagine the Deceiver committing to a battle when his own forces are going to be relatively few (considering the overal rebellion against the C'tan), and for his plans to carry on he needs nothing less than exact, precise, and overwhelming victory in this theatre of war. But now he effectively doesn't exist any more (good way to create character, GW, going and killing off the most characterful beings in the existing book...!) and the canon works directly against everything that I used to love about the 'cron fluff.

I'm not asking you to come over to my point of view, but can you at least understand what I mean? I completely appreciate that a lot of people really do like the new fluff, and I can understand why. But for my tastes, it's poor. If it was just a civil war, with the C'tan losing/about to lose, then I would have been perfectly happy. In fact, that would have been the best outcome. But it wasn't just a small change, a tweaking of certain elements of the fluff and expanding on others. It wasn't even a large-scale change. It was a complete butchery of nearly all the existing fluff, wiping the slate utterly clean. It means the part of the fluff I used to love is now incorrect. Can you understand my issue?

It would be like me re-authoring Harry Potter, but removing Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and making the entire story about a totally new cast of characters just with the same Hogwarts and Houses (but different teachers). Unless you hate the series (shame on you!), you would be devastated that all the familiar aspects have been torn asunder and over-written. This is why the fluff has got my goat, as it were.

Am I making any sense?

EDIT: Here's an idea! Why couldn't the Necrons have pulled an Undead and split, accommodating the whole civil war? One the one side you have Codex: The Triarch, which is the current dex minus Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, and C'tan Shards. The Warriors and Immortals have different names and kits, which are headed towards more of the "Egyptian" feel, and the Triarch does more to restore their minds and independence. The Tomb Kings in space.

On the other hand, you have Codex: C'tan Dominion, which is the Necrons under control of the C'tan. Warriors and Immortals, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Pariahs, perhaps one or two new units, and the C'tan. Vampire Counts in space.

EDIT 2: You know what... I might just do that myself.


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## Magpie_Oz

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I'm not saying it does, but I'm saying people who want to have their army like that can't. You said that I should just run my fluff as I want to, but the dex doesn't support me in that (and neither does the canon), just as the Grey Knight dex doesn't support daemonic allies (if some hypothetical person ever wanted to do that). It was an analogy, not a critical point of debate. :grin:


Not being able to have Daemons as allies is part of the rules not the fluff. Having said that I can work Daemons into my army as a "counts as" set up if I want to use the models.

I haven't read it as yet but I think you'll find that the Daemon in the Eisenhorn series is on the fringes of being an ally.

There is also the situation in "Grey Knight" were a fall to the warp is undertaken on purpose, again alluding to allying with Daemons.


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## Zion

I've been reading this thread for a while now, participated in it, and even gotten a little bent out of shape. I'm going to try and convey some things without getting too grouchy, but I can't promise anything because I am a grump.

Having gone back and looked at my old Necron codex, and then looking at the new one, and then looking at other old codexes and then the new ones I came to a couple of small, personal conclusions:

1. The old books sucked when it came to fluff. Yes there were snippets here and there, but most of the time a unit would only get a couple of short sentences to give the unit flavour.

2. Complaining that the new fluff aren't what you want is a lot like showing up to a surprise party and complaining that the frosting on the cake isn't the right kind of chocolate. It's fucking nitpicking and pointless. We, as a community, wanted more in our books (or cakes to stretch the metaphor), and GW has been giving us a lot more cake in every release. And as the cakes have gotten larger, so has the frosting (fluff), to cover more and to accentuate the cake. So you don't like the frosting? Scrape it off and enjoy the cake instead of nitpicking the one thing you don't like.

3. I think we're at the point that we can call this thread dead. Everything that can be said on both sides has pretty much been said. We have a small handful of people who don't want to craft their own story to patch their displeasure (or ignore the new fluff, or whatever) verses a large portion of us who have sat here for 18 pages now and have mentioned at least a dozen different ways a person can approach the fluff and do what they want with it. At this point no one is going to really win over anyone else.

4. People need to take fluff less seriously. It's there to accentuate the game, and give what you have some context, not lock you into some kind of pigeon-hole on how you have to view the armies.


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## Magpie_Oz

oooooo Mr Grumpy ! :biggrin:


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## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> oooooo Mr Grumpy ! :biggrin:












Yeah, probably. Maybe I'm just tired of the self-entitled rants about how wrong GW is for doing what it does and blah, blah, blah.

Honestly it's tiresome. Legitimate criticism has long ago been replaced with hyperbole and nonsense as far as I've seen and maybe I'm a grouch because of it, pissing all over people's parades because they didn't get the right coloured balloons at their party, but honestly I think I'm just the one with the right perspective. 

At the end of the day the world doesn't end because Necrons are given more personality than we had before, and WWIII doesn't happen because Ward still has a job. Shit ain't that serious, nor will it ever be. They're little plastic people you play with and have fun with. And at this point I think people are too busy being pedantic about shit that really isn't that serious and letting it get in the way of why you play a game: to have fun.

So yeah, I'm a grump. But at least when I put my army on the table I'm doing it with the right intentions: to have a good time.


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## Akatsuki13

Here here! I have to agree with Zion. For awhile now this thread has been nothing but the same arguments said at least a dozen ways. I say let this thread die like its previous incarnations. Of course it will probably come back in another three or four months.


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## Serpion5

I am inclined to agree. 

There is always Homebrew Fluff to discuss ways to compromise. The original purpose of this thread has since staled and become pointless. Time to throw it on the pile of old necron debate threads. 


Locked.


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