# Cheese Please



## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

Alright, suggestions and comments on this unit make up would be great k:


10 Assault termies with a mix-match of hammers+sheilds , & lightning claws. 
Kor'sarro Khan
Pedro Kantor

Entire unit will have +1 attk from pedro, the outflank ability, furious charge, and hit & run from Khan. 

You'd be able to outflank, and get the assault in without having casualties along the way.

On a charge, the lightning claw termies will have 5 attacks each, re-rolling wounds, the hammers will have 4 each. All at STR 5 initiative 5.

More often then not on the assault you'll always strike first, aside from units with counter attk or equal initiative. And most units wont be able to survive this charge.

If the unit manages to survive, and doesn't flee, on you oppenents assault phase, you can hit & run at the end of his turn, and the start of your turn youll be able to assault again, reaping the rewards of furious charge and the extra attk.

Unit would cost a little over 700 pts. 

Hmm?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Crap in any game 1500 or under. In a 2000 point game, perhaps. However, it would take up almost half of the entire army. It _is_ cheesier than cheese itself. However, I wouldn't do it.


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

I would love to face that unit with my orks. A combination of using a flank guard, in cover, so they hit first (and may even kill one or two of the terminators) to tie the unit up for a turn or two while the rest of the army moves away from a 1/3 to a half of the army that can only hurt me in HTH and walks.


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## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

aww that would be so nice ...aside from the fact kantor AND khan both have frag & krak grenades...so no first attacks for you. Anyways, I'm going to try it out, I'll see what happens


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Take pictures. Post them.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Eric.West said:


> Alright, suggestions and comments on this unit make up would be great k:
> 
> 
> 10 Assault termies with a mix-match of hammers+sheilds , & lightning claws.
> ...


Too many points invested in one unit. As you can no longer consolidate into another unit, your guys are going to be left standing out in the open. In the next shooting phase, you will have just lost 700 points. I know with my Tau you might remove a hammerhead on the flank, (180 points) but in the next shooting phase, the bulk of my railguns and plasma will be pointed at that squad. Once that squad dies, you lose the game as it is effectively half of your army.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

too much for one squad in a small battle. points wouldnt matter in apoc but they would still get torn to pieces by gunfire in apoc, too much of a fire magnet due to their lethality.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

This unit would never see close combat. Your opponent would know you had it and deploy away from the flanks. Ordinarily this might be a problem, but not since you would only have half an army on the field at the start.

Even if you did end up playing a game against a particularly stupid chimpanzee, you are talking about an 800 point unit, or thereabouts. How does an 800 point unit, coming on from reserve, get its points back over three, maybe four close combats? Your opponent would have to deliberately line up units for it to kill.

This is not cheese. I don't really know why you are looking to create a cheesy unit, but this fails. These guys have potentially enough power to kill 20 or 30 guys on a charge, but it's totally wasted because there's no possibility of them being in close combat with that many guys at once.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Someguy said:


> This unit would never see close combat. Your opponent would know you had it and deploy away from the flanks. Ordinarily this might be a problem, but not since you would only have half an army on the field at the start.
> 
> Even if you did end up playing a game against a particularly stupid chimpanzee, you are talking about an 800 point unit, or thereabouts. How does an 800 point unit, coming on from reserve, get its points back over three, maybe four close combats? Your opponent would have to deliberately line up units for it to kill.
> 
> This is not cheese. I don't really know why you are looking to create a cheesy unit, but this fails. These guys have potentially enough power to kill 20 or 30 guys on a charge, but it's totally wasted because there's no possibility of them being in close combat with that many guys at once.


agreed. This unit isn't really an all killy doom unit but just a gigantic hole to throw points into. Flank into an enemy, probably get around a quarter of their points back in that assault, then next turn they get the shit shot out of them unless you're playing against a brick, and quite an idiotic brick at that....it just won't work to get it's points back unless it faces a unit if similar style and then you'd have no advantage over it....


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## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

lol, glad to see all the constructive criticism, gives me some motivation to prove it all wrong. First of all, half the comments were, "this would suck in a small point game", well the sun rises in the east, and gravity holds us to the earths surface, great now we've both pointed out the ridiculously obvious. This unit would be fielded in a 2000-3000 pt game.

Next main argument seems to be that they would get 1 assault, then be suddenly vaporized the next turn...everyone forgetting termies 2+ save and 3++ invuln save on the storm sheilds in the unit? where I would allocate any high AP shots the negate the 2+.... Not to mention being able to put wounds on the IC's giving them a chance to save it, if failed, I still have my full unit and don't lose a termy..

Now as for my opponent knowing about the unit and deploying away from the flanks, I'd just love that, don't forget, I still do have the other 2/3'rds of my army, which consists of thunderfire cannon, + vindicators + sternguard vets , sniper scouts ect.. My thunderfire cannon and 2 vindicators, deathwindlauncher droppods (dropped empty ) would just LOVE an entire army to pile up into a tight nit bunch in the center of their deployment zone, they would get shot to bits while going, o shit o shit o shit seeing my termies flanking in from the sides. thats over 3 large pieplates, and 4 small blasts...Don't forget orbital Bombardment from Pedro...he has my vote.
Snipers would be pinning units down as well. 

Now lets take one more point, Khan makes my ENTIRE army have the ability to outflank, my termies wouldn't be alone. Far from it. Outflanking Sternguard vets with rapid fire AP 3 (kills any spacemarine or lower) special ammo would just be disgusting, don't forget any tactical unit, scout unit, or vets chucking melta bombs at anything with an armor value. mm..melta bombs. 

Anyways, my termies are in, I'm assembling them all asap, will take a bit longer because I'm magnetizing every weapon so they can go from assault to shooty termies in seconds. And the two special characters are direct order so will take a bit longer. I'll have pics up as soon as I can. 

I mean, I appreciate the comments because it helps me figure out tactics ect, but it seems like everyone just wants to flame because I'm trying to make a cheese unit, and not actually considering it's possibilities. Thanks for the honest comments, the rest of you spiteful narrow minded jerkoffs..:fuck:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

There's no need to get so defensive about it. You asked for criticism and it was given. personally whenever I know someone's bringing khan I have a tactic to counter outflanking and people have brought "super units" that were completely destroyed by the third turn with only taking out one combat squad. It's not original and it's not unexpected. People will know how to deal with it. simple as that. I'm not trying to be a dick here I'm just telling you what I know about tactics like these....


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Eric.West said:


> lol, glad to see all the constructive criticism, gives me some motivation to prove it all wrong. First of all, half the comments were, "this would suck in a small point game", well the sun rises in the east, and gravity holds us to the earths surface, great now we've both pointed out the ridiculously obvious. This unit would be fielded in a 2000-3000 pt game.


You do not want to match CC units in a 2000-3000 pt game with other armies.



Eric.West said:


> Next main argument seems to be that they would get 1 assault, then be suddenly vaporized the next turn...everyone forgetting termies 2+ save and 3++ invuln save on the storm sheilds in the unit? where I would allocate any high AP shots the negate the 2+.... Not to mention being able to put wounds on the IC's giving them a chance to save it, if failed, I still have my full unit and don't lose a termy..


Alrighty, in a 3000 point game, I'd bring two vindicators, knowing you have a giant point investment lurking on the side of the field, I'd fire both directly into it. For fun, let's say it hits the squad as you want to be packed together, ready to condense into another combat.
So first shot, let's say doesn't scatter. I'd sit still and make sure to remove this mess.
Twelve hits, s10
Ten wounds(accursed one in six chance!)
Let's say you have 50% storm shield? Sound fair?
So we have five terminators with a 4+, five with a 3+, and than the commanders are....4+? Methinks? You'll most likely not allocate the wounds on the IC's since they don't(I think) have eternal warrior, so let's throw them on terminators
Five on the 4+(2.5 die)
Five on the 3+(1.5 die)
So after the first shot we've got 4 dead terminators(Three on the first, one on the second, to give you the edge), next shot.
Eight hits, s10
Seven wounds, now, here, we'd have to put one on an ic, since we just plum ran short of terminator ablative wounds.
Two on the 4+(1 dies)
Four on the 3+(1.3 dies)
One on either commander(50% chance of 'seeya')
So at the end of the vindicators(Which cost around 260ish, given the usual upgrades) we've got 6.3 dead terminators, and a pretty even chance of a dead commander.
Now, knowing that this was your 'ace in the hole unit' I'd probably have a squad nearbye to intercept(155 points, five initiate, five neophyte plus gear)
Squad fires pistols and a meltagun
Six pistols and one meltagun hit(presumably)
3 pistols wound, melta wounds
.5(one in six chance*3)+.3 dead
Total losses:
7.1 Terminators
Maybe commander

Now they charge,
12 Templar attacks
15 Neo attacks
8 Templar hits(rerolling fifty percent)
7.5 neophytes hit
7.5 wounds altogether
and that is...
1.25 deaths(one dead thunder hammering terminator), so:
Total before power fist:
8.35

LC terminator strikes at the same time:
4 attacks
2 hit
2 dead scouts(woo)

Now the power fists roll into play, we'll say the commanders survived,

Black Templar fist:
2 attacks
Both hit
And these are allocated toward the poor bloke who either A)Does not have a 3+ invul, or B)Does not have eternal warrior(They sprinkled this everywhere in your dex, I dunno)
So we'll say one dead commander(4+ save three times now? No. Git outta here.)
I don't know the -exact- stats on khan or pedro, but let's say...4 attacks each?
so 8 attacks total, rolling on 3's
6 hit
5 wound
3 dead scouts, two dead marines.

The black templar inevitably lose combat, losing seven to your 2, so take five wounds.
Statistically, they'll lose 1.6 guys, but all the uber death squad has left is

One lightning claw terminator
and whomever did not have eternal warrior.

On your turn, you get to spend a lovely spell wiping the last 1.3 guys from the templar squad, than you get to consolidate...into nothing, than get blasted apart the following turn.
In total, the squad would remove about 300 points of sacrificial bt squads(The one you assault when you walk in, than the one that counter charges) And end up losing 700-or so points in a one-trick pony people see coming a mile away.

And fyi, this was a very general army list, not tricked out to kill you at all.






Eric.West said:


> Now as for my opponent knowing about the unit and deploying away from the flanks, I'd just love that, don't forget, I still do have the other 2/3'rds of my army, which consists of thunderfire cannon, + vindicators + sternguard vets , sniper scouts ect.. My thunderfire cannon and 2 vindicators, deathwindlauncher droppods (dropped empty ) would just LOVE an entire army to pile up into a tight nit bunch in the center of their deployment zone, they would get shot to bits while going, o shit o shit o shit seeing my termies flanking in from the sides. thats over 3 large pieplates, and 4 small blasts...Don't forget orbital Bombardment from Pedro...he has my vote.
> Snipers would be pinning units down as well.


Oh, that's cute, you have 2300 points left, to my 2700 with no further hq choices. So you're threatening me with units that black templar easily chew through? 
I'd be more worried at the fact you're robbing me of my armor save, but with the new rules regaurding cover, and how everyone has it at all times, meh.



Eric.West said:


> Now lets take one more point, Khan makes my ENTIRE army have the ability to outflank, my termies wouldn't be alone. Far from it. Outflanking Sternguard vets with rapid fire AP 3 (kills any spacemarine or lower) special ammo would just be disgusting, don't forget any tactical unit, scout unit, or vets chucking melta bombs at anything with an armor value. mm..melta bombs.


See previous point regaurding cover. Also, if you make the templar angry, they'll come find you. And anyone who decided to come with the party would have to be announced, I'd allocate accordingly.




Eric.West said:


> I mean, I appreciate the comments because it helps me figure out tactics ect, but it seems like everyone just wants to flame because I'm trying to make a cheese unit, and not actually considering it's possibilities. Thanks for the honest comments, the rest of you spiteful narrow minded jerkoffs..:fuck:


It's a strong tactic, but not one I'd fall for, cheers.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Regardless of the theoryhammer, very large and expensive units are just bad. You are putting all your eggs in one basket (of cheese) and hoping that it does well. You hope that it turns up soon, that it comes on the side you want it, that it has something worth killing, that it doesn't die, that the other guy isn't playing lash. Sometimes, sure, these things will happen. You can certainly beat the kids with this sort of stuff and if that's what you want to do, fine.

If, however, you want to play a game of skill instead of just rock paper scissors, you would be looking at tactics, not a cheese unit. Tactical play involves trying to reduce the impact of chance and introduce decisions made by you. If you decide you want to kill a particular unit then you need to be able to move to it, or shoot at it. You don't want a slow unit with no guns that turns up several feet away from the action and can't do anything about it.

As far as the unit itself goes, fine. It's obviously very powerful and it takes a lot of effort to stop it. A good player just won't bother. It's killing power is insane, of course, and it's going to kill anything it hits three times over, though that does beg the question of whether it would be better to have three units and kill three things once over - which is normally enough.

If it's outflanking, and lots of other guys are going with it, then you have to expect anything that does start on the board to take some serious pain in the first couple of turns. It's very likely that the other guy will have spread all over the place and lots of them will be on your side of the board. Most objectives are going to be in enemy control and lots of your guys are going to be dead. Your reinforcements will then show up piecemeal fron semi-random table edges. That's an uphill struggle.

It's up to you whether you decide to take any of this advice seriously. If you have fun, that's ok. Still, this is weak cheese and it is not effective. These are qualities of armies, not units, and successful strategy in 40k works by making an army that is greater than the sum of its parts, not a death bomb unit that thinks it can win games on its own. 

I think I can speak with a bit of authority on this subject. I've got best general at a GT using an army whose most expensive unit cost 141 points. The argument that a big, inefficient points sink becomes better in a larger game is just flat wrong. If you spent the points on nine predator destructors (if you could) how much more stuff would you kill with 72 shots a turn? Every point matters.

I notice that you mention pedro doing his orbital bombardment by the way. He isn't going to do that, because he needs to stand still to do it. You don't want this unit to stand still and then watch fireworks for a turn.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Too true. 

I use the same approach, and avoid too much "bling" in my force, and only buy upgrades when they provide something that normal options do not. i also use r4edundant units, and avoid having any "sore thumb' units that stick out. 
This approach maay not be sexy, but it does prevent lash from being effective, as no unit is vulnerable, they are all fearless, and use rapid fire or assault weapons, so the movement is a minor inconvenience. since my units are symetrical, the decision of who to pick on becomes more difficult. My losses since taking this approach have been to simply taking more casualties than my opponent, not to losing a key unit, and my attack faltering, nor due to not having enough troops at the end to claim objectives. my opponents have won only by exterminating all of my units.


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## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

alrighty, sorry it took so long for an update, but the direct order characters took a long ass time. Before some pics and a half fast battle report, only comment I want to address is Lordwaffles. I absolutely laugh at your mathhammer. It's so utterly flawed it makes me laugh. Lets take your opening line. _"For fun, let's say it hits the squad as you want to be packed together, ready to condense into another combat."_

Well first off, this isn't "for fun" this is to actually try and decipher something. Second, never in my life would I put any unit packed together.."ready to condense into another close combat" You condense when you assault, before that, take your 2" between models...after every combat, consolidate back out and spread out. That being said, the most you'd get would be 4-5, far from..12. lol, thus throwing off the rest of your "calculations" and making them null and void.

So I tried the unit in 2 games, one a 1vs1 vs guard. Another 2vs2 again against guard. Heres some pics. 

I was facing a forge world list, an armored company. Most vehicles were packed full of men mind you. 









2nd turn my unit came on, wiped out an fully fortified ruin, and a 5 man tactical squad who also outflanked captured the enemies objective. 

















Next turn my termies stood still to defend the objective, and also give pedro a chance to unleash his orbital bombardment, which took out 2 tanks in one blow. Also my servitor unit outflanked, and blew up a tank with those handy servo arms. Ah yes I love irony. Because the tank hadn't moved, they all auto hit, making their low WS irrelevant. 


















I forgot to take pics, but my whirlwinds were launching this whole time as well. Pretty much the rest of the game was a steam roll. 










The second game was also a great success. My partner was marines as well, and we each had 2 whirlwinds, so 4 whirlwinds against 2 guard players..:good:

Game started with our dev squads and tactical squads armed with lascannons popping off any tanks in sight. Also our whirlwinds unleashing havoc, from behind buildings with no risk of being shot at. 

















My assault squad got in a turn before the cheese unit, and started some chaos. (yes its made up entirely of assault on black reach sergeants and 1 commander)









And then....steam roll. 


















End result.....marines..:laugh:..guard :ireful2:

Things I'll change next game, The termies will be split into combat squads, giving them 2 shots at coming in, and from different directions, also able to attack to separate units. Pedro with one, Khan with the other. Not once did my entire squad need to swing, usually half their attacks were enough. 

Also, I'll be adding in ironclad dreads with heavy flamers replacing both storm bolter and melta gun. And either drop podding them in, or outflanking them. Very effective infantry killers, and with 4 STR 10 dread close combat attacks on an assault, great for tanks as well. Not to mention one is from a seismic hammer. (adds +1 to result on the vehicle dmg table) 

Imagine a droppod'd ironclad with 2 flamers, first the droppod launches its massive pieplate deathwind launcher, followed by 2 flamer templates at str 5 and then an assault. That plus whirlwind action should keep them screaming untill the cheese unit arrives. 

I'll also be adding scout bikers with cluster bombs, booby trapping any terrain it looks like my enemy would pass through, then they are deployed 12" ontop the board, take their free scout 1st move, 12", then move their 12 ", then assault 6 " thats 42" down the board on 1st turn. 

Also thinking about adding 2-3 attack bikes, with multi meltas, outflanking them, and popping holes in anything with high armor.

Anyways, it worked out great, All you haters...if you look in the mirror, you'll probably see this > :shok:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

the tactical incompetence of your opponent isn't proof of your brilliance. you got lucky, if you had faced me, you wouldn't have killed two mbts with the orbital strike.

also, you seem to be taking credit for the work your partner did. plus, you are being childish, so it didn't get killed, it proves nothing, until you back it up with something more substantial than "steamroller," you need to explain how the unit, unsupported by anything else, managed to earn it's points back, and enough extra to justify the points expenditure. with the support, it means that any hard unit from the dex could have done the same.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

To all "the haters", please take a deep breath and count to 10 before replying to this one.

For the moment, let's assume you play a game against someone with some AP2 weapons, who chooses not to deploy his army in a line for you to walk down, beating stuff up as you go.

Seriously, come to a GT and play against good players. Anybody can design a cheese list and trample over the kids at GW. Nobody cares.

It's good that you are starting to see that the unit performs better split in two. As I pointed out earlier, putting all that power in one place is just a waste. There's nothing stopping you sending two units to do a job if one isn't enough, but you can't have one unit do two jobs.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It's similar to when i had the Old Hordes of Chaos ary book, i had a super hard unit of Khorne Chosen Knights, which was impossible to kill, and was lead by a Lord with a sword granting him 7 attacks over all. All in all, I was fielding these like i would field Knights which were 20 points cheaper, as a stall all. However, when I played against armies with lots of small flankers, I couldn't make my points back.

Depending on my enemy, I annhilated them, or died.

I had a joint battle too, during the Storm of Chaos. My Warrior and Knight heavy army, with Chariot support, with another Chaos army, this one Tzeentch, with 6 units of 6 Marauder horsemen. Against those Wood Elves which had the start of his line shielding the others Ranked High Elves, I had to get rid of them, otherwise I would be charging Wardancers, dryads and Waywatchers, which came to 600 instead of 1500 which i had invested in the unit. 

However, with the fast cavalry, they were nasty enough to wipe away the skirmish resistance, and I was free to charge the 30 Phoenix Guard behind.

However, if I was on my own, i would have been forced to go up against units which cost little, removed ranks, had little attacks, and could que up.

Sure they might eventually die, but in the end it would have been 2500pts against his 3400pts.

Super Killy units can be stopped. Everything has a counter. Now you've chosen to outflank - you need to be within 14-15" to get your charge in for sure. It's not too hard (for guard in particular) to que up a 60 point meatshield which will tarpit you for a turn, and then either direct you away from the main battle, or charge you so that you're against 20 models with 2 attacks, 1/40 is going to kill. Good use of 60-80 points, IMHO, stalling, and killing 1.

Also, being a slow head is not an excuse to keep a tank stationary with Powerfist/TH Reserves, or at least near a table edge.


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

First off, I'd like to reaffirm the fact that beating up on a Guard player in a game or two isn't near enough to claim that your unit works. Especially when, by your report, the player hadn't used his army to its full potential. 

Second, it's good to see you thinking about splitting the unit. It's a start. You now have twice the chance of getting a solid close combat unit on the field at the right point in time. 

Now, there's a few problems I see, even with your intended list. I don't think you even need both the five cc terminator/special character squads. Why do you need two, when dropping one gives you the points to buy something else...say troops, which you seem to be lacking? 

It just seems to me that you have a hell of a lot of Elite, Heavy, and Fast Attack choices with precious few Troops. You'll need them, particularly with Troops being the only units capable of holding objectives under Fifth Edition rules. 

Another tactic to consider...take five termies with Kantor (I'm assuming it's Khan that gives outflank here, mind you, as I don't have the codex...), and equip your bike sergeant with a teleport homer. It might very well give you a better result than outflank, allowing your termies to get closer to the action and eliminating the need for Khan in the first place. 

I'm just a bit concerned at your general approach to the game. Now, I'm far from an experienced player myself, so feel free to take my advice or ignore it as you will. But I did go through a phase where I wanted to pick up one of everything 'uber-killy' I could find. However, even before my first game, I realized it takes more than that to beat an intelligent player. A well-balanced list in the hands of an astute tactician will take apart the list you've outlined piecemeal. And there's really not a whole lot you can do to change that.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Well all the harsh things to be said have been but I'm amazed at the level of thought you put into this 1 unit. Unfortunately if you opponent is informed and even a little skilled at tactics as said before they won't do as well as you think. I take a vindicator for units just like this and at 1500 to 2000 pts. Many skilled opponents will leave your termies chasing their troops and the rest of your army will be either disable or inaffective. There has to be a synergy with the rest of your army that this units lacks. Even at 3000 pts. Your opponents will blow these guys to join the emperor, there's just too much firepower at 2000-3000pts.

matter of fact I partnered with a game buddy at my shop against one other guy. My partner brought 1 heavy support and a land raider plus an uber killy squad inside. By the end his land raider was almost useles and immobilized at the 1st turn. his heavy support was dead and if I hadn't podded my templars in the wolves would have surrounded and butchered the killy unit. 

It's not just the troops that win the game it's all up to the general on how they actually fare.

@ Son of Mortatrion- You sir use the same tactics I do and looking at your name I agree Death Guard are beautiful and reliable troops.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

splitting them into 2 units is a better idea. Instead of one uber killy unit you have 2 quite good killy units. Thing I see with your bat reps is that they faced 2 quite static armies or a badly used mech army. Any good mechanised army will run rings around the rest of your army before the terminators get a chance to hit. 

For example I use a fully mobile BA army and was against marines recently. 10 scouts with shotguns and a lot of blasts on his side. He outflanked the scouts but it took them 4 turns to actually hit anything and they were down to 4 men by then. my army ran straight past them, smashed straight into the enemy lines and wiped out all those blasts before a single flanker could shoot at anything. similar principle for your unit. The Shrike-terminator combo is much better IMO....


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm sorry, I have to be harsh here. I want to just say that this is really cool, and verry potentially fluffy. But as I said I have to be harsh here.

What?
NO.
700+ points? That just dosent work, chease is when you get somthing good and get it for verry few points. Chese is not packing everything you have into one squad. You want to know what hapens when you do that? RAILGUNS AND MELTAS, THATS WHAT! 
Chese is my 65 pt platoon comand squads with deep strike, 4 meltaguns, and a meltabomb each, that each take out 150+ pt of armor, chease is not a 700 pt 10 man unit. Period. Sure lots of save are cool and all*Sarcasm* but what do you do when you enemy has AP1! This is not chease. Lets see you field this vs a baneblade.

I'm sorry, I just couldnt believe what I was hearing. I want to stress that the unit is cool for what it is.


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## doggie_1 (Nov 14, 2008)

*replying*

well i think if you hav e equal points to the oppesiton then you have greater chance of winning the game. i have three squads of terminators and they all rule so if you have them against aginst a an armie of three choices of ork boys, nobs or grethins then the best option is to go for the strongest unit whitch would be the nob sqaud or you could wipe out the littlest suckes first like the gretchins or boys.

once you have them wiped off the board the game is whole lot eiser depending on whitch units are left after that.:grin:


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Col. Schafer has got a bit of a point though... 200 points OVER the cost of a baneblade? No thanks...

The same cost as a Barbed Heirodule? I know which one I would rather have...


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Eric.West said:


> alrighty, sorry it took so long for an update, but the direct order characters took a long ass time. Before some pics and a half fast battle report, only comment I want to address is Lordwaffles. I absolutely laugh at your mathhammer. It's so utterly flawed it makes me laugh. Lets take your opening line. _"For fun, let's say it hits the squad as you want to be packed together, ready to condense into another combat."_


Well, to be fair, you made a really bad strategy, and proceeded to shove it down everyone's throat. I could only assume you had no idea what you were doing, my apologies.



Eric.West said:


> Well first off, this isn't "for fun" this is to actually try and decipher something. Second, never in my life would I put any unit packed together.."ready to condense into another close combat" You condense when you assault, before that, take your 2" between models...after every combat, consolidate back out and spread out. That being said, the most you'd get would be 4-5, far from..12. lol, thus throwing off the rest of your "calculations" and making them null and void.


So you're spreading the squad into the maximum possible arrangement after the massacre? An average of 3-4" to spread out the entire squad in different directions, while not putting them into cover so as to slow you the next turn? 

Well how about something in equal points than to simulate exactly how strong your squads are? Or maybe you'd just like to fight bad guardsmen players =P

So on your side: (Seven hundredish points)
10 terminators(half lightning claw, half thunder hammer)
pedro cantor
khan

On my side: (Seven hundredish points)
10 initiates+5 neophytes bp/pf all bp/ccw
10 initiates+10 neophytes bp/pf all bp/ccw
10 initiates+10 neophytes bp/pf all bp/ccw

So, for fair numbers, how would you like to split this, given that you can take the charge? I could easily organize the three squads to just force you to assault the one up front, than have the others assault the remainder next turn. Or if I wasn't feeling so cheeky, I could have all three squads rummaging about into a gigantic, interweaved formation so you can assault all three at the same time.

This is in a vacuum, yes, but this is assuming you're getting your first turn charge that you always wanted. Your vindicators will be way out of reach, and with this gigantic target that you could actually make your points back in...

Anyway, scenario one, you get the charge against one of the squads. I don't have the marine book, but pedro has 4 powerfist attacks on the charge? And the Khan has a powerweapon with five attacks?
Khan:
5 attacks-4 hits-2 dead neophytes

Initiates:
18 attacks(aimed at Pedro)-14 hits-7 wounds
Neophytes:
6 attacks(Pedro)-3 hits-2 wounds
&
Lightning claws:
20 attacks-10 hits-7 dead neophytes
Pedro has a 3+/4+ right? So nine wounds, he'll save two out of every three.
So he's got 3 wounds, that should probably kill him.

Initiate:
1 attack(Khan)-1 hit-50% of dead Khan
&
Thunder Hammers:
15 attacks-7.5 hits-1 dead neophyte, five dead initiates

So at the end of one combat, templars lose by 13.5, and the remaining 4 initiates take:
Pf:3
Initiates:10.5

And squad one is outta there, and so far, you've only lost around two hundred points to kill them off.

Next turn, the other two squads fire pistols and charge in.

20 initiate bp-15 hit-7 wounds
20 neophyte bp-10 hits-5 wounds
Two dead terminators(one of each)

Now for CC:
Khan:
5 attacks-4 hits-2 dead neophytes(a)

Initiates a(squad) :
27 attacks-18 hits-9 wounds
Neophytes a(squad):
30 attacks-15 hits-7 wounds
Initiates b(squad):
27 attacks-18 hits-9 wounds
Neophytes b(squad) :
30 attacks-15 hits-7 wounds
&
Lightning Claws(3) :
9 attacks-4.5 hits-4 dead neophytes(a)
So that's twenty eight wounds on terminators, you'll lose 4.666 terminators, so two of each?

Initiate(Khan) :
1 attack-1 hit-Khan dies(Combined with 50% from earlier)
Initiate(Squad) :
1 attack-1 hit-0.333 terminator(So five dead total, we'll say a lightning bites it?)
&
Thunder hammers(3) :
6 attacks-3 hits-3 dead neophytes (a)
You win by 3

So in this assault, Khan explodes, and you've got five terminators down. The templar will allocate 3 to each squad(bummer). Squad a loses the last two neophytes, and Squad b loses one initiate.

Total left:
1 pf & 9 initiates(squad a)
1 pf, 8 initiates, 10 neophytes(squad b)

To your:
3 Thunder Hammers

Next assault rolls around:
Initiates a:
18 attacks-12 hits-6 wounds
Initiates b:
16 attacks-10 hits-5 wounds
Neophytes b:
20 attacks-10 hits-5 wounds
That'll knock out 2.666 terminators, with the last one alive, lets see if he pulls through

Initiate a:
1 attack>1 hit>1/3 chance of death
Initiate b:
1 attack>1 hit-1/3 chance of death
&
Thunder Hammer:
3 attacks-1.5 hit-1 dead neophyte(b)

Total left:
1 pf & 9 initiates(squad a)
1 pf, 8 initiates, 9 neophytes(squad b)

So that was...half your army at 1500 comprised entirely of hqs and an elite choice? It's the bottom of turn three and the rest of the templars should be moving into position, if this was a kill points mission, I'm already up by two with minimal losses, if it's a capture the points game, unless those drop podding dreads completely avoid the command squad, than I've won my half of the board. If you decided to outflank, than you're coming into CC range with the remnants of that fight and left most of the middle clear. I'm going to doubt your bog standard marines will stand much of a chance against the rest of the templar, considering you probably don't have another squad of terminators(God forbid we must mathhammer out another ten man squad against the bt command squad)




Eric.West said:


> End result.....marines..:laugh:..guard :ireful2:
> Things I'll change next game, The termies will be split into combat squads, giving them 2 shots at coming in, and from different directions, also able to attack to separate units. Pedro with one, Khan with the other. Not once did my entire squad need to swing, usually half their attacks were enough.


Well it's good to see they're splitting up. Good choice.



Eric.West said:


> Also, I'll be adding in ironclad dreads with heavy flamers replacing both storm bolter and melta gun. And either drop podding them in, or outflanking them. Very effective infantry killers, and with 4 STR 10 dread close combat attacks on an assault, great for tanks as well. Not to mention one is from a seismic hammer. (adds +1 to result on the vehicle dmg table)


Ironclads are a very good choice in the dex, I personally don't find them terribly effective due to always having meltabombs in my command squad, but most people don't have those.



Eric.West said:


> Imagine a droppod'd ironclad with 2 flamers, first the droppod launches its massive pieplate deathwind launcher, followed by 2 flamer templates at str 5 and then an assault. That plus whirlwind action should keep them screaming untill the cheese unit arrives.


I've never seen people take deathwind launchers. Mostly because they're expensive, shoot poorly, and generally don't do much to t4 3+. And the dreadnought can't assault after immediately slamming into the earth from orbit. He'd get out, fire his flamers with the indignant joy of a child, then proceed to shot by everything in reach. Unless I've just never seen anyone using them correctly.



Eric.West said:


> I'll also be adding scout bikers with cluster bombs, booby trapping any terrain it looks like my enemy would pass through, then they are deployed 12" ontop the board, take their free scout 1st move, 12", then move their 12 ", then assault 6 " thats 42" down the board on 1st turn.


Just remember you'd be rolling dangerous terrain every time you moved into or out of that terrain.
And that scouts suck alot in CC. =P ws3 s4, for that many points? No thanks.



Eric.West said:


> Also thinking about adding 2-3 attack bikes, with multi meltas, outflanking them, and popping holes in anything with high armor.


That seems to be a prominent strategy this codex.



Eric.West said:


> Anyways, it worked out great, All you haters...if you look in the mirror, you'll probably see this > :shok:


Oh I wasn't hating on a gigantic squad, I just think seven hundredish points can go to much better uses. Like three large templar squads. Plus they can do something not even the largest, most powerful new codex marine terminators can do, something only a madman ultramarine terminator dreams about.
*flag* "The point is ours!"


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

Eric.West said:


> Alright, suggestions and comments on this unit make up would be great k:
> 
> 10 Assault termies with a mix-match of hammers+shields , & lightning claws.
> Kor'sarro Khan
> Pedro Kantor





Eric.West said:


> Things I'll change next game, The termies will be split into combat squads, giving them 2 shots at coming in, and from different directions, also able to attack to separate units. Pedro with one, Khan with the other. Not once did my entire squad need to swing, usually half their attacks were enough.


Despite your swearing at the advice given, it now seems you agree with it, and the 12 man 700 point unit is too big.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

so... what I basically got from all that was: in a 3000pt game I would only need to dedicate my avatar and farseer to slaughter that entire unit. If not flanking on that side, A banshee squad could easily rape the majority and leave the rest for shooty shooty.

Not saying its not a cheesy list, but if your opponent knows before hand that they are out flanking (and he has to be told) then he can deploy respectively to stay the hell away from the board edge, or deploy to counter attack the unit. 

Allocations for a unit when taking less wounds than there are models take majority save, so as soon as your start losing your thunder hammers with their 3+ invls. you will start droppin termies like a rabit droppin shit.


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