# Space Wolves selective memory or was Angron lying?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I've found the following info on Lexicanum which states it's from the Space Wolves 5th Edition Codex (which I don't have so if you do please feel free to check it). It says:

"The Space Wolves revere the Emperor as the greatest warrior of all time, the only being to have ever bested Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat. When Space Wolves call upon Russ or the Emperor in battle, it is to witness the deeds of men and to judge the fallen."

Now we know from Betrayer that Angron did best Leman Russ in combat so did the Space Wolves conveniently forget about this or did the incident not happen the way Angron said it did? Angron isn't the most reliable source after all.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The Space Wolves most likely chose to forget it since that event ultimately failed to open Angrons eyes, and it occurred before the Heresy. Post Heresy, the loyalist legions have focused on the treachery of the traitor legions (because thats who they ultimately chose to be) and you don't go remember anything good about an irredeemable traitor.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The fight wasn't actually finished. Both primarchs had lost their weapons and while Angron had his "boot on [Russ's] throat" (I assume Angron said this figuretively since Russ was able to "crawl" away), the fight did not end there.

After Russ disengaged/crawled away from the melee, Angron was ready to continue, but Russ "opened his arms wide, offering no fight." Then they exchanged some words and that was it.

Was Russ losing at that very particular moment of when he crawled away? Probably yes, but had Russ lost the fight? Almost definitely not since the fight did not finish.

Another explanation is that the codices are propaganda. There's untruths slipped in. I don't like this explanation (except for the clearest examples usually prefaced with "It is said" or "story has it that...") since someone could make the argument that anything and everything is propaganda. This would invalidate the codices as a source of knowledge.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

darkreever said:


> The Space Wolves most likely chose to forget it since that event ultimately failed to open Angrons eyes, and it occurred before the Heresy. Post Heresy, the loyalist legions have focused on the treachery of the traitor legions (because thats who they ultimately chose to be) and you don't go remember anything good about an irredeemable traitor.


I could see that of another of the Legions but the space wolves come across as the most simple up front guys who say it like it is rather than play with words.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

True. All histories were kept in oral form (was least it was in 30k). Maybe something got muddled along the way.

Maybe some combination of the two. Russ didn't really "lose" since the fight never ended...so that's what they kept saying. And then the nuance was lost over time.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> True. All histories were kept in oral form (was least it was in 30k). Maybe something got muddled along the way.
> 
> Maybe some combination of the two. Russ didn't really "lose" since the fight never ended...so that's what they kept saying. And then the nuance was lost over time.


Good point, maybe the Wolves see losing as submitting as Russ did to the Emperor but from memory Angron said Russ fought to the end. Maybe the Wolves see that as the fight not ending and so it wasn't a technical loss! 

That explanation could also explain why they don't see Lion El'Jonson knocking him out as a loss either? Russ had stopped fighting and Jonson struck a low blow (in the Wolves' eyes) so that didn't count as a loss.

I know it's a simplistic way of looking at it but the Wolves do seem to follow dog like behaviour such as baring their throats to submit (from Unremembered Empire and A Thousand Sons I think) so if the Wolf doesn't bare their throat they've not submitted and therefore not lost.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> I could see that of another of the Legions but the space wolves come across as the most simple up front guys who say it like it is rather than play with words.


All the more reason it is believable should they choose to lie.

IIRC, 5th edition dex was written before Betrayer too.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I think it has more to do with the fact the codex was written long before that particular piece of HH fluff was conceived.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Vaz said:


> All the more reason it is believable should they choose to lie.
> 
> IIRC, 5th edition dex was written before Betrayer too.





Khorne's Fist said:


> I think it has more to do with the fact the codex was written long before that particular piece of HH fluff was conceived.


Fair point, maybe just a retconned piece of info then.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think its a bit of both the past and present. 

Newer fluff does go to show the ferocity of the World Eaters, and ABD does use the Wolves as an intentional legion to show their ferocity. I would say that the talk about this confrontation in _The Betrayer,_ has an interesting tone and reaction. Even the Word Bearers view the conflict differently than the Butcher Nailed tainted World Eaters. 

The battle was certainly something in which I think we see certain personalities come out. For instance, Leman Russ was using this conflict to teach Angron a lesson. I believe any other Primarch would have been humiliated at the eventual outcome of that duel had they been in the same position. Angron however, did not care, and testifies to the ideology of fighting simply to fight, and not even to win. Just to unleash hate and blood. I think you could also say that ADB certainly hints that Russ tried to assert himself over other legions due to his personal ideology about things.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

ckcrawford said:


> I think its a bit of both the past and present.
> 
> Newer fluff does go to show the ferocity of the World Eaters, and ABD does use the Wolves as an intentional legion to show their ferocity. I would say that the talk about this confrontation in _The Betrayer,_ has an interesting tone and reaction. Even the Word Bearers view the conflict differently than the Butcher Nailed tainted World Eaters.
> 
> The battle was certainly something in which I think we see certain personalities come out. For instance, Leman Russ was using this conflict to teach Angron a lesson. I believe any other Primarch would have been humiliated at the eventual outcome of that duel had they been in the same position. Angron however, did not care, and testifies to the ideology of fighting simply to fight, and not even to win. Just to unleash hate and blood. I think you could also say that ADB certainly hints that Russ tried to assert himself over other legions due to his personal ideology about things.


Russ was a hypocritical bullshit artist and Angron was right to take him down a peg.

Russ did'nt teach anyone a lesson since he struck FIRST and not the supposedly uncontrollable animal.

Angron won the verbal and physical duel.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Did you read the same story?


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Vaz said:


> Did you read the same story?


Yes i did.

Again Angron won the verbal and physical duel.

The ''lesson'' of Russ is cheapened by the fact that he struck first and that he had no business taking it upon himself to teach his brother a lesson.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Apparently not. 

No one knows who fired the first shot. However, we know that Angron was horribly out maneuver and, if he had been even remotely sane or gave a single fuck about his men he would have realized how thoroughly he had cocked up, but he apparently wasn't and never figured it out, even when he had someone spell it out for him.

Did Russ overstep his bounds? Maybe, but one could argue that someone had to at least try to teach the brain damaged nut a lesson.

Did Russ lose? Yes and no. He thoroughly outplayed Angron and played cards just right to deliver the message he wanted to. Did Angron actually learn anything though? Nope, he was too fucked up. 

As to who really one the Night of the Wolf: Nobody.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

gen.ahab said:


> Apparently not.
> 
> No one knows who fired the first shot. However, we know that Angron was horribly out maneuver and, if he had been even remotely sane or gave a single fuck about his men he would have realized how thoroughly he had cocked up, but he apparently wasn't and never figured it out, even when he had someone spell it out for him.
> 
> ...


Russ struck first read it again page 165.

Angron verbally countered every argument that Russ made and Russ out of frustration and anger struck *first*.

Whoever fired the first shot is unknown the one who resorted to violence when he could not win the verbal battle is.


Russ had a habit of overstepping his bounds and taking on roles that nobody gave him and he paid a dear price for it against Angron.

Angron never drank the emperors kool aid he saw the emperor exactly for who he is Russ could not handle it when Angron plainly stated this.

There was no great lesson that Russ taught Angron as Russ was the wrong Primarch to impart it.

Sanguinus would have been a far better choice and would have had a far better chance to impart the lesson that Russ tried and failed to teach to Angron.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Might want to get those Nails checked, Godking. 

He taught the lesson of having a wider perspective. You don't win a war by winning lots of small fights (most of the time). Focusing exclusively on the short-term can screw you in the long-term. 

The fact Russ spared Angron's life at the end should have illustrated that pretty clearly.

Also the Emperor sanctioned the World Eaters for their actions on Ghenna by essentially exiling them to the galactic...north, I believe? 

I'll quote Lorgar:

‘How can you not see it? [The Wolves] won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor."


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Might want to get those Nails checked, Godking.
> 
> He taught the lesson of having a wider perspective. You don't win a war by winning lots of small fights (most of the time). Focusing exclusively on the short-term can screw you in the long-term.
> 
> ...


So the dex is correct Russ won, he might not have bested Angron but angron wasn't going to survive.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> So the dex is correct Russ won, he might not have bested Angron but angron wasn't going to survive.


This is true, but that's not what the Codex said. The Codex states that no one had bested Russ besides the Emperor...and it should be noted, at least from Angron's perspective, that Russ "crawled" away from him during their fight. 

Was Angron winning the fight? Probably. Had he actually won the fight? This is debatable since the fight was still ongoing when...

"...Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Strings of it tumbled from his cracked lips with each rasping exhalation.
Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight. 
‘Do you see?’ he said. No, he barked it. He barked it not like asimple beast, but with human passion backed by canine ferocity. Conviction burned in his eyes – the same instinctive viciousness of a dog defending its family. ‘Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you’ve done to your sons?’
At the battle’s core, sense pierced Angron’s aching sight long enough to leave him speechless. The axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at the ranks of Wolves facing him with their bolters raised. They came in ragged packs, abandoning the warfare to form a ring around the primarchs. Wolf after Wolf – close enough for
Angron to make out the individual totems and talismans rattling against their stormgrey armour – moving to stand in ragged ranks with their brothers."

So did Leman Russ win the hand-to-hand combat? No, he did not. Did he lose it? I don't think there's enough evidence to say he did. Was he _losing_ the fight? Likely.

Still, there's a difference between losing and actually being defeated. Look at the fight between the Lion and the Night Haunter on Tsagualsa. Reversals do happen.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> This is true, but that's not what the Codex said. The Codex states that no one had bested Russ besides the Emperor...and it should be noted, at least from Angron's perspective, that Russ "crawled" away from him during their fight.
> 
> Was Angron winning the fight? Probably. Had he actually won the fight? This is debatable since the fight was still ongoing when...
> 
> ...


It's more likely Russ threw the fight, as it's intention was to teach angron something.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Threw the fight? Iffy. No real reason for him to throw the fight when he could have made his point just as well by beating angron senseless. Gone in knowing he'd likely lose? Makes more sense.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> Threw the fight? Iffy. No real reason for him to throw the fight when he could have made his point just as well by beating angron senseless. Gone in knowing he'd likely lose? Makes more sense.


Angron was forced to fight as a gladiator for most of his life, his entire character is based around that.

Russ besting him in a fight is only going to prove that Russ is the better warrior, the entire point of the fight is that Russ wanted Angron to see that his everything he was was going to destroy him and his legion.

Angron engaged Russ like a gladiator Russ and the wolves fought like a pack. Working off each other to win.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Could have done that just as effectively without getting his ass kicked. Russ winning or losing wouldn't have changed anything. The important part was getting Angron to fixate on him, not how well he did in said fight.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> Could have done that just as effectively without getting his ass kicked. Russ winning or losing wouldn't have changed anything. The important part was getting Angron to fixate on him, not how well he did in said fight.


I dunno, I just re read that part in Betrayer and during their fight Angron was lucid, perhaps Russ also felt that if he fought right handed Angron might have gave into the nails and the entire point of the fight would be lost.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think Russ _should_ have had his men open fire on Angron. Incapacitate him. That'd drill in the lesson that a war isn't a series of fights. It's bigger.

Then again, getting their sons directly involved in a fight isn't something we see until Isstvan. It would probably have been a step too far for the times.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

hailene said:


> Might want to get those Nails checked, Godking.
> 
> He taught the lesson of having a wider perspective. You don't win a war by winning lots of small fights (most of the time). Focusing exclusively on the short-term can screw you in the long-term.
> 
> ...


Russ ''lesson'' meant nothing as Angron never cared about the imperium or even living.

And Russ was still the one who struck first when he could'nt win the verbal battle.

There was no ''great'' plan enacted by Russ he assumed that he could bully Angron into doing what he wanted to do it blew up in his face and he was barely able to leave the fight with some dignity by pointing out that he chose to spare Angron.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

godking said:


> Russ ''lesson'' meant nothing as Angron never cared about the imperium or even living.
> 
> And Russ was still the one who struck first when he could'nt win the verbal battle.
> 
> There was no ''great'' plan enacted by Russ he assumed that he could bully Angron into doing what he wanted to do it blew up in his face and he was barely able to leave the fight with some dignity by pointing out that he chose to spare Angron.


Which as was pointed out was the entire point. Angron needed help and Russ did the only thing he could think of to get through to him.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

godking said:


> Russ struck first read it again page 165.
> 
> Angron verbally countered every argument that Russ made and Russ out of frustration and anger struck *first*.
> 
> ...


Great point, Sang had the charisma and the physical power to back it up if necessary. The only thing that would give me pause is Sang's psychic powers which could send Angron into a frenzy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Great point, Sang had the charisma and the physical power to back it up if necessary. The only thing that would give me pause is Sang's psychic powers which could send Angron into a frenzy.


Ok, if having the consequences of his choices shoved into his face with a real, evolving example didn't get through to Angron, how would Sanguinius be able to EXPLAIN it any better? I don't even think (though it might just be my memory) Angron actually got it after Lorgar spelled it out for him.

Also, the power to back it up? As opposed to having hundreds of bolters aimed at his face?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

godking said:


> There was no ''great'' plan enacted by Russ


He actually had a plan. If you read the story carefully. Or even somewhat. I have an inkling you skimmed the Lex or Wikia for your information, but that's just me guessing. I don't know.

Anyway, Russ's plan was to gather up the World Eaters and return to Terra with them. There, the Nails would be removed. The World Eaters could return to the days of when they cared for strategy, tactics, logistics, and everything else that makes an army successful in the long term.

Much like they were before Angron.

Would this have worked? Unknown. We know that the Emperor's techno-mages could not remove Angrons (he was a primarch, however). The World Eaters' own could not remove it from their Librarians' brains...but could Terra's techno-mages remove it from non-psyker Astartes? No one knows.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Russ besting him in a fight is only going to prove that Russ is the better warrior, the entire point of the fight is that Russ wanted Angron to see that his everything he was was going to destroy him and his legion.


I never thought Russ won the fight and I'm a SW-fanboi. I was always under the impression that LR wanted to take Angron down while Angron wanted to kill LR while the SWs despite taking heavy causalities were surrounding Angron.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I never thought Russ won the fight and I'm a SW-fanboi. I was always under the impression that LR wanted to take Angron down while Angron wanted to kill LR while the SWs despite taking heavy causalities were surrounding Angron.


Given the fact that a few dozen astartes had bolters pointed at angron and could have dropped him with sustained fire taking angron down wasn't the goal.

Like I said before Russ's goal was either get angron in that position or convince him to return to terra for help. Either one is up for debate.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Given the fact that a few dozen astartes had bolters pointed at angron and could have dropped him with sustained fire taking angron down wasn't the goal.
> 
> Like I said before Russ's goal was either get angron in that position or convince him to return to terra for help. Either one is up for debate.


What I remember is Lorgar and Angron discussing the battle as evil gloating where Lorgar think Angron is an idiot due to allowing himself to be surrounded by the SW and Angron thinking Lorgar is stupid because he had the better causality-rating compared to the SW and gaining the upper-hand on LR.

Thats how I remember it at least, but I can be mistaken and you might be right.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

hailene said:


> He actually had a plan. If you read the story carefully. Or even somewhat. I have an inkling you skimmed the Lex or Wikia for your information, but that's just me guessing. I don't know.
> 
> Anyway, Russ's plan was to gather up the World Eaters and return to Terra with them. There, the Nails would be removed. The World Eaters could return to the days of when they cared for strategy, tactics, logistics, and everything else that makes an army successful in the long term.
> 
> ...


I did read read the book you asshole.

Who the fuck are you to imply that i did'nt read the book because i dont agree with your assertion ?

Russ plan was to have Angron meekly submit to him and follow him to Terra.

This plan failed when the supposedly morally superior Russ had every argument he made made countered by Angron and Angron pointing out that Russ had no authority over him.
Which lead to Russ striking out in anger.

Someone from either side firing the first shot the resulting battle and Russ ''sparing'' Angron.

The battle and its results where not planned had Angron killed Russ or Russ killed Angron at best it ends with one legion mauled and the other legion destroyed and the surviving legion being censured.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

godking said:


> his plan failed when the supposedly morally superior Russ had every argument he made made countered by Angron


This is why I wonder if you read the book.

The crux of Angron's argument is that he (Angron) is fulfilling his Emperor given duty by slaughtering everything. Allies. Enemies. Everything. 

Angron said he serves the Emperor by bathing his Legion "in the blood of innocents and sinners alike". 

Sure. Except the Emperor didn't. In fact, after the Ghenna massacre the Emperor told Angron to come back to Terra to be reprimanded, ordered the end of Nail surgery, and exiled the World Eaters to the northern fringes for their sins.

The only argument Angron won was in the universe where he deludes himself he's serving the Emperor as the Emperor wished him to.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

godking said:


> I did read read the book you asshole.
> 
> Who the fuck are you to imply that i did'nt read the book because i dont agree with your assertion ?


Who the fuck are you to think you can just attack other members here without repercussion? 

Personal attacks are forbidden on Heresy. So leave this snide attitude firmly up your own ass where it belongs and try to be more civil. I'm sure you can make your point without being a total cunt about it. The rest of your post for example, was fine.

Thank you.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

hailene said:


> This is why I wonder if you read the book.
> 
> The crux of Angron's argument is that he (Angron) is fulfilling his Emperor given duty by slaughtering everything. Allies. Enemies. Everything.
> 
> ...


I wonder if YOU read the book because that is not what Angron said .

Angron never cared about the emperor of the imperium and plainly said so.

He killed because he liked to 

{I do these things and i enjoy them not because we are moral or right - or loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe -but because alll i feel are the butchers nails hammered in my brain}

Russ was the one deluding himself with claims that they where fighting for ideals.

Angron won the argument and Rudd could'nt handle it and struck out.

So no i don't agree with your viewpoint and no your viewpoint in correct merely because you think it is.

And yes i have read the book and my opinion is my own and i will not be bullied by you or anyone into changing my opinion.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Serpion5 said:


> Who the fuck are you to think you can just attack other members here without repercussion?
> 
> Personal attacks are forbidden on Heresy. So leave this snide attitude firmly up your own ass where it belongs and try to be more civil. I'm sure you can make your point without being a total cunt about it. The rest of your post for example, was fine.
> 
> Thank you.


Then he should not have insulted me first.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Grow the fuck up.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

First off, let me say that suggesting that godking did not read the book was a bit provocative. I will also admit he flew off the handle. Let's call honors even and focus on the dicussion.



godking said:


> Angron never cared about the emperor of the imperium and plainly said so.


You are technically correct. Angron did not care for the Imperium. He did say he was serving the Emperor through his slaughter. Angron says...

"How am I a traitor, wolfling? I fight as you fight, as loyal as you are. I do the *tyrant’s bidding*."

"I am loyal, the same as you. I am *told *to bathe my Legion in the blood of innocents and sinners alike..."

Angron had the misguided idea he was serving the Emperor (admittedly grudgingly and pretty much accidentally) by slaughtering his way through civilizations. This is clearly not the case. Or at least not the case every time.



godking said:


> my opinion is my own and i will not be bullied by you or anyone into changing my opinion.


No one here is bullying you into anything. Bullying someone into my opinion would be pointless and stupid. I want to get to the truth. If I am right, I would like to convince you that I am right by showing ample evidence.

If you are right, then I will change my opinion. 

That's all. That's why we're here.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

It galls me greatly, but I think hailene is correct.

And I find find it kind of amusing that the current juvenile here actually call the peace here and call other people immature.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Get in the bin, Beaviz.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> It galls me greatly, but I think hailene is correct.
> 
> And I find find it kind of amusing that the current juvenile here actually call the peace here and call other people immature.


And your most assuredly not helping with crap like this.

As to the topic, you know that thing we ALL should be keeping to (whether your username be Beaviz or Vaz for that matter), it was definitely a combination of Russ overstepping himself and Angron being unable to see the point of what Russ was trying to show him.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

godking said:


> Then he should not have insulted me first.


He did not once insult you. He questioned you. You'll need to learn the difference, and I suggest you learn it fast. 

Do not take a difference of opinion or a question against your statements as a personal insult. Because they are assuredly not personal attacks, and they will happen a lot in sections of the forum like this. Retaliating in the manner that you did puts YOU in the wrong, not him. 

And that will be the end of this little spat, I don't want to hear any more of it in this thread from anyone. Keep on topic.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> I think Russ _should_ have had his men open fire on Angron. Incapacitate him. That'd drill in the lesson that a war isn't a series of fights. It's bigger.
> 
> Then again, getting their sons directly involved in a fight isn't something we see until Isstvan. It would probably have been a step too far for the times.


I think there is a problem with Russ and his legion; whether warranted or not, and obviously we don't know all the facts, there is a definite feeling growing that the Wolves of Fenris were viewed as a legion that were overstepping their bounds. I think it happens to be one in which they were used by the Emperor in such a way, but there maybe a legit reason to think that there was some attitude with the Wolves that saw the Imperium as black and white and asserted their views.

Its not farfetched to believe the World Eaters were outmaneuvered in such a way. Probably a bad example but the hologram in that short story with the Ultramarines, showed how Guilliman sacrificed whole companies to out maneuver the World Eaters and slaughter them. We could see how his captains were relieved of their command when they saw how at first it seemed like they were getting butchered. Seeing that Horus viewed Russ and Magnus as the ultimate military threat, I think its safe to assume the Wolves of Fenris ability to do the same. 

As for the argument, I think its important to remember how Angron really views success and the fact he doesn't give a dang about his legion. He really just cares that there is lots of death.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

hailene said:


> First off, let me say that suggesting that godking did not read the book was a bit provocative. I will also admit he flew off the handle. Let's call honors even and focus on the dicussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Angron was never loyal he was literrally kidnapped and forced to serve the emperor hence why he sees the emperor as a tyrant and does'nt drink the emperors kool-aid of bringing enlightment he fights because he likes it and because there was nothing else for him in the universe.

And he stated so plainly Russ could not handle this stated so plainly thus he struck out.

Again there was no great plan to outmanouvre Angron and waste thousands of Astartes in doing so.

Russ assumed that he could bully Angron in to doing his bidding and it backfired horribly on him.

He did'nt count on Angron being able to counter every point that Russ made without resorting to violence

That the battle ended the way it did was pure luck it could easily have ended in the destruction of one legion and the mauling on another.

But if you want to be3lieve that Russ planned to strike out in anger and waste the lives of thousands of his marines just to try and convince Angron then you are entitled to your opinion.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There's a difference between countering and blindly ignoring those points being made through being thoroughly unreasonable.

The intention may originally not have been to have the legions and primarchs in outright combat, but it escalated to a level where it was inevitable given the two Primarchs. If either primarch had been a different one, it's unlikely - but Russ was able to use the battle to his advantage. Although the Red Angel was possibly the better fighter of the two, Russ was still able to rely on his legion to perform complex maneuvres which resulted in the isolation of Angron. 

Should there have been any other primarch other than Angron, the message would have been obvious - but no-one truly knew to what extent that Angron (and Curze for that matter) were damaged irreparably. These are living demigods, who had been brought up to believe that no challenge was past them, and that one of their very own should be unable to wield their legions with the same skill that others did (notably Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Alpha Legion and Ultramarines) was alien to them. Angron had been taught the lesson, but ignored it because he didn't care, despite the reasoning.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Vaz said:


> There's a difference between countering and blindly ignoring those points being made through being thoroughly unreasonable.
> 
> The intention may originally not have been to have the legions and primarchs in outright combat, but it escalated to a level where it was inevitable given the two Primarchs. If either primarch had been a different one, it's unlikely - but Russ was able to use the battle to his advantage. Although the Red Angel was possibly the better fighter of the two, Russ was still able to rely on his legion to perform complex maneuvres which resulted in the isolation of Angron.
> 
> Should there have been any other primarch other than Angron, the message would have been obvious - but no-one truly knew to what extent that Angron (and Curze for that matter) were damaged irreparably. These are living demigods, who had been brought up to believe that no challenge was past them, and that one of their very own should be unable to wield their legions with the same skill that others did (notably Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Alpha Legion and Ultramarines) was alien to them. Angron had been taught the lesson, but ignored it because he didn't care, despite the reasoning.


1 Russ had no authority to demand that Angron followed .

This is true and Angron stated this.

2 Russ claims that they fight for ideals

Angron counters that they fight for land resources and to silence dissenters in the name of ''compliance'' this is true the emperor is a tyrant no matter how benevolent he appears to be.

3 Russ calls Angron a traitor

Angron counters with the fact that the imperium offers compliance or death Russ weakly claims that the imperium offers freedom this is bullshit . Angron correctly counters that Russ is free because his freedom matches the emperors will. And for every world that threaten the imperiums advance a peaceful world that wishes to be left alone is conquered. Angron sees it as slavery depending on your point he is at worst overstating his point at best correct in his assertion.

4 Angron states that he is loyal and that he killes because he likes it. He trurlfully aknowledges that without the nails he might have been a more virtuous man. Angron also threatens the emperor.

Russ decides that he cannot really counter any Of Angrons points and lashes out.

5 Russ claims that Angron is lost 

True but as Angron points out at least he is honest.

Something that Russ mister "using psykers is wrong except when we do it and call then runepriests" is not.

6 Russ retorts that if Angron cannot see the difference between savagery and ferocity then he is truly gone.

Angron does'nt care

And another thing is that Russ is a shameless hypocrite his own legion is barely any better when they are unleased for the ''murder make". Russ admonishing Angron for savagery is akin to a bootlegger criticizing a drugdealer.

Angron countered every point that Russ made before they came to blows.

Russ can claim that Angron would have died had the battle continued and that the wolves are better soldiers which is true. 

But he lost the moral argument the moment he struck out first.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

godking said:


> 1 Russ had no authority to demand that Angron followed .
> 
> This is true and Angron stated this.





> 2 Russ claims that they fight for ideals
> 
> Angron counters that they fight for land resources and to silence dissenters in the name of ''compliance'' this is true the emperor is a tyrant no matter how benevolent he appears to be.


Semantics and spin changes an outlook. 30K was a genuinely enlightened age for human race. The two go hand in hand. ADB was canny in essentially relating American or Russia land grabs which have been well documented 



> 3 Russ calls Angron a traitor
> 
> Angron counters with the fact that the imperium offers compliance or death Russ weakly claims that the imperium offers freedom this is bullshit . Angron correctly counters that Russ is free because his freedom matches the emperors will. And for every world that threaten the imperiums advance a peaceful world that wishes to be left alone is conquered. Angron sees it as slavery depending on your point he is at worst overstating his point at best correct in his assertion.


Angron is a unique being even amongst the Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos even by birth, though the Emperor and the Primarchs are not completely aware of this fact. The Emperor would not have been doing his job as father had he not tried to rescue his son. You think that any father in any war would not have teleported into battle and pulled out their son the moment before they're killed had they opportunity? And compliance or death? Angron has a broad mandate - push back the Primordial Annihilator, weaken the beliefs in superstitions which is what grants the Chaos Gods their power, push back Xenos hordes, and reestablish contact with post Age of Strife human star systems. Those who don't accept the Imperial truth are killed - which from a human perspective now is pure genocide - but necessary. From the Emperor's point of view, killing someone who holds the key to which a plague which would destroy humankind is a necessary route.

Still, you can look at the point of view of a lay person in a 21st century world that is not beset by alien horrors formed from pure emotion and madness that come from another dimension and think that killing people is bad.

I'd challenge you to ask a group of people what should be the correct course of action to take upon discovering someone who is "patient zero" of a plague which would be able to escape any containment and would ultimately kill an entire race? What about those farmers and zookeepers and conservationists who discover an animal carrying a disease which would kill an entire herd? They're slaughtered for the good of others.

Correctly counters? Bullshit.



> 4 Angron states that he is loyal and that he killes because he likes it. He trurlfully aknowledges that without the nails he might have been a more virtuous man. Angron also threatens the emperor.
> 
> Russ decides that he cannot really counter any Of Angrons points and lashes out.


Seeing a stubborn man verbally attack you, your father and your every ideological belief isn't cause to lash out? Especially when said man is apparently lucid and ultra-intelligent?



> 5 Russ claims that Angron is lost
> 
> True but as Angron points out at least he is honest.
> 
> Something that Russ mister "using psykers is wrong except when we do it and call then runepriests" is not.


A genuine belief that they're not using psychic powers from the warp doesn't make him dishonest or a liar. It simply makes him wrong.



> 6 Russ retorts that if Angron cannot see the difference between savagery and ferocity then he is truly gone.
> 
> Angron does'nt care
> 
> And another thing is that Russ is a shameless hypocrite his own legion is barely any better when they are unleased for the ''murder make". Russ admonishing Angron for savagery is akin to a bootlegger criticizing a drugdealer.


You might want to rethink that analogy. Bootlegging is done to avoid laws on legal substances - usually to avoid the tax costs, drugdealing is providing access to illegal substances. While one is morally wrong, another is legally AND morally wrong. The unleashing of the murdermake is the throwing off of restraint - something that only select World Eaters are able to do, especially following the introduction of the nails.



> Angron countered every point that Russ made before they came to blows.
> 
> Russ can claim that Angron would have died had the battle continued and that the wolves are better soldiers which is true.
> 
> But he lost the moral argument the moment he struck out first.


You and I have a very different opinion of "counter". Ignored is more like. Which ironically, coincidentally, or intentionally is what's happening with this discussion. Rebuffing with "but he countered" to each and every point isn't actually going anywhere or providing an example.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Vaz said:


> Semantics and spin changes an outlook. 30K was a genuinely enlightened age for human race. The two go hand in hand. ADB was canny in essentially relating American or Russia land grabs which have been well documented
> 
> 
> Angron is a unique being even amongst the Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos even by birth, though the Emperor and the Primarchs are not completely aware of this fact. The Emperor would not have been doing his job as father had he not tried to rescue his son. You think that any father in any war would not have teleported into battle and pulled out their son the moment before they're killed had they opportunity? And compliance or death? Angron has a broad mandate - push back the Primordial Annihilator, weaken the beliefs in superstitions which is what grants the Chaos Gods their power, push back Xenos hordes, and reestablish contact with post Age of Strife human star systems. Those who don't accept the Imperial truth are killed - which from a human perspective now is pure genocide - but necessary. From the Emperor's point of view, killing someone who holds the key to which a plague which would destroy humankind is a necessary route.
> ...





> Semantics and spin changes an outlook. 30K was a genuinely enlightened age for human race. The two go hand in hand. ADB was canny in essentially relating American or Russia land grabs which have been well documented


 Enlightened provided that you agree with the imperiums mandate otherwise its slavery for you at best.



> *Angron is a unique being even amongst the Primarchs, corrupted by Chaos even by birth, though the Emperor and the Primarchs are not completely aware of this fact. The Emperor would not have been doing his job as father had he not tried to rescue his son. You think that any father in any war would not have teleported into battle and pulled out their son the moment before they're killed had they opportunity?* And compliance or death? Angron has a broad mandate - push back the Primordial Annihilator, weaken the beliefs in superstitions which is what grants the Chaos Gods their power, push back Xenos hordes, and reestablish contact with post Age of Strife human star systems. Those who don't accept the Imperial truth are killed - which from a human perspective now is pure genocide - but necessary. From the Emperor's point of view, killing someone who holds the key to which a plague which would destroy humankind is a necessary route.
> 
> Still, you can look at the point of view of a lay person in a 21st century world that is not beset by alien horrors formed from pure emotion and madness that come from another dimension and think that killing people is bad.


The emperor could have either sent the warhounds down or helped Angron himself the emperor chose the most illogical option that he could chose.

Something that Lorgar comments on.

No matter how you spin the emperors viewpoint it still comes down do as i say because i say so and if you don't i will destroy you Angron sees it for what it is Russ deludes himself in believing that he is fighting for ideals and given that the emperor chose to keep Chaos a secret from the Primarchs the mandate of pushing back the primordial annihilator could never have been fullfilled.



> Seeing a stubborn man verbally attack you, your father and your every ideological belief isn't cause to lash out? Especially when said man is apparently lucid and ultra-intelligent?


 Russ claim is that he is that he and his legion are more in control then Angron yet Russ lashed out first. You can accuse Angron of overstating his points but you cannot honestly say he lied during their brief discussion.



> A genuine belief that they're not using psychic powers from the warp doesn't make him dishonest or a liar. It simply makes him wrong.


 He knows the truth he just does'nt want to admit it. Russ talks of truth and ideals but has no compunction in having his runepriest befriend a member of the Thousand sons only to gather evidence to convict them. Buit this is moot as the emperor decided decades before Nikea that he would get rid of psykers.



> You might want to rethink that analogy. Bootlegging is done to avoid laws on legal substances - usually to avoid the tax costs, drugdealing is providing access to illegal substances. While one is morally wrong, another is legally AND morally wrong. The unleashing of the murdermake is the throwing off of restraint - something that only select World Eaters are able to do, especially following the introduction of the nails.


 Both are legally wrong one is only morally wrong because we see alcohol as a lesser vice.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

godking said:


> Enlightened provided that you agrees the imperiums mandate otherwise its slavery for you at best.


Because subjecting yourself to possession and profligation of otherworldly entities who are using you as emotion batteries is so much better. What the 30k era does was remove the influence of religion and other superstitious fuckwittery from the logic and common sense of daily living. There is no 'god says it is wrong' or 'inshallah/alaikum salaam' anymore.



> The emperor could have either sent the warhounds down or helped Angron himself the emperor chose the most illogical option that he could chose.


They are Primarchs. Nominal equals not babies needing fathering. The emperor sent one who he thought had something that Angron may have respected. Strength. Angron doesn't trust Magnus, or Fulgrim. Perturabo and Mortarion fight in other means. If he sent Alpharius, Dorn or Horus the resources and support they had would have been as good as an official sanction. The Lion and Sanguinius were too ideological and figureheads for the Imperium. Rowboat hated Angron and the Khan doesn't give a fuck. Ferrus Manus would see him as faulty machinery (and at that stage hadn't begun to realise the path his ideology was taking) and wpuld try and kill him. Lorgar isn't trusted due to his slow progress and Curze is a fucking fruitloop. That leaves Russ.



> Something that Lorgar comments on.


This is Lorgar you're talking about. A fallen lorgar who orchestrated the fall of the Imperium as a result of being bollocked for leaving the Imperium at risk of possession and primordial,battery usage, who relied on a falsified friendship to try and kill the UM's (being too weak to do so and reliant on the WE to do so).

In bed with daemons. Which lie, and very existence relies on the very suspension of logic and belief in absurdity.



> No matter how you spin the emperors viewpoint it still comes down do as i say because i say so and if you don't i will destroy you Angron sees it for what it is Russ deludes himself in believing that he is fighting for ideals and given that the emperor chose to keep Chaos a secret from the Primarchs the mandate of pushing back the primordial annihilator could never have been fullfilled.


In a universe where that is needed. In post heresy Imperium it is still kept hidden, it is not public knowledge of chaos. Acknowledging the presence makes something real in this case - like with every religion today, whether it is olympian pantheon astrozarianism or pastafarianism with the flying spaghetti monster. The emperor kept it hidden but in lemony snickett fashion led to the revelation of chaos (of course the gods were not going to let the emperor ignore and obliterate them out of existence.



> Russ claim is that he is that he and his legion are more in control then Angron yet Russ lashed out first. You can accuse Angron of overstating his points but you cannot honestly say he lied during their brief discussion.


Are you seriously comparing controlled aggression to only being defensive? Don't be an idiot.



> He knows the truth he just does'nt want to admit it. Russ talks of truth and ideals but has no compunction in having his runepriest befriend a member of the Thousand sons only to gather evidence to convict them. Buit this is moot as the emperor decided decades before Nikea that he would get rid of psykers.


Prove it.



> Both are legally wrong one is only morally wrong because we see alcohol as a lesser vice.


We have alcohol as a legally permitted drug. Heroin isn't. Right or wrong, the transport of alcohol to avoid the taxes is less reprehensible than providing an alternative poison. Look at all those folklore heroes who steal drom the badguys taxes. Zorro, Robin Hood. The likelihood of those heroes actually giving to the poor is slim to none.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Russ bitch slapping Angron is, quite honestly, irrelevant.

Russ wasn't trying to explain the joys of pacifism. Russ wasn't trying to show Angron the follies of pride. What Russ was trying to show Angron was the damage he'd done to his legion. To show him that the nails had turned them into a group of mindless butchers. 

Russ' issue with their behavior was that they were killing everything, including Imperial forces. It wasn't that Angron and his men had less control, it was that they were entirely out of control once they got going. Does the fact that Angron could goad Russ into throwing a punch change that in any way? No. Should it have cheapened the lesson Angron should have learned after the fight? No. The fact is that Angron had taken an efficient fighting force and turned them into Marine Lawnmowers devoid of rational thought. Russ loosing his temper does nothing to change that.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

godking said:


> Angron was never loyal


I feel like you keep missing my points.

No one is saying that Angron was loyal. What I am saying is that Angron thought he was doing the Emperor's bidding (as he himself says). 

We can all agree that Angron was clearly not doing the Emperor's bidding, right?



godking said:


> Again there was no great plan to outmanouvre Angron and waste thousands of Astartes in doing so.


Again...sorta missing my point.

There indeed aws no "great plan" to corner Angron and prove he had broken his Legion with the Nails (though that's what happened). The plan was to return the World Eaters to Terra to have their nails removed and to cease the implantation of additional Nails in future recruits.

Russ did go in there with a plan.



godking said:


> Russ assumed that he could bully Angron in to doing his bidding and it backfired horribly on him.


You're right that it backfired. Only because Angron couldn't catch Russ's lesson (that the Nails were destroying both Angron and the World Eaters). Lorgar facepalmed himself so hard it must have echoed in the Warp.



godking said:


> He did'nt count on Angron being able to counter every point that Russ made without resorting to violence


When did this happen?

Russ said the Nails were destroying his Legion.

Angron talked some non-sense about serving the Emperor through slaughtering everything.

The fact that neither Leman Russ nor his Legion were sactioned by the Emperor after the Night of the Wolf (whereas the World Eaters were) should show who was right in the Emperor's eyes.


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