# Decimator daemon engine, practical?



## Ravner298

Any chaos player, myself included, saw the decimator and squealed like a 14 year old girl at a bieber concert. Now that the initial wave of excitement has passed, lets discuss just how practical this model is, in its current form.

Inital observation would be its size. Its spilling over a 60mm base. It towers over regular and contemptor dreads. Add onto that its AV is 12/11/11. It won't be easy to get a cover save for this model. It's also a bit pricey for I3/BS3... and with weapons and mark its just shy or just over the 200pt mark. 

Do you guys think it's worth taking? How would you run it? The mortis variety costs the same as a land raider, with basically the same survivability as a dread (but can get back up! sometimes!). I don't see how you could footslog a 200pt killing machine across the table and get it into CC, especially with the current meta of melta spam. Ontop of it all, you have to include a lord or sorc with the same mark as you intend to devote the decimator to (so, nurgle or tzeentch because the other two are sortof garbage).

As a quick side note, for use in a daemon army you have to sacrifice crushers/flamers/fiends to include it. While its ranged AT daemons desperately need, is it worth getting rid of our most competitive units for?

Anyways, let's hear some feedback heresy. I know I plan on getting one for the look alone, ill figure out how to use it later.


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## Supersonic Banana

I am probably going to get one of these as it is pretty epic. I personally am under the impression that the best way to use one would probably be with double butcher cannons and the mark of tzeentch as this would cause at least 4 str 8 hits on average. I considered the mark of nurgle but then realised that if you failed the roll (say getting a 3) and then re-rolled you could potentially get a 1 and remove it. Basically im saying that you also double your chance of getting a one.


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## Ravner298

> I considered the mark of nurgle but then realised that if you failed the roll (say getting a 3) and then re-rolled you could potentially get a 1 and remove it. Basically im saying that you also double your chance of getting a one.


Well, if its wrecked it's basically counted as destroyed anyway. Rolling to keep it on the ground isn't exactly the intention....youre trying to get a 6 and the MoN would double your odds. But regardless of MoT or MoN, a double butcher cannon would run you 210 points. Its statistically about the same output as a psyrifle dread, for about 60% more points. Possession slightly edges out fortitude, but its also alot bigger, and alot harder to get cover on. I'd almost rather have a LR for that many points. Maybe if it were av 13 that price tag would be reasonable.


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## Tossidin

It is really meh. BS 2 because of daemonic posession, costs 195 if you want the 2 good guns (butcher cannon), AV 12 that has a hard time getting cover...
MoN is the only one worth taking, as rerolling those dice are actually pretty decent.

Also, it sucks in melee. I3 means that vanilla dreads will want to combat you, as they hit first and have a good chanse at squashing you :/


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## LukeValantine

I want to start of by saying that decimator CC builds are retarded. Just like all dreads the only practical role for the model is as a anti tank fire base (A fire base that has to be all but exploded to stop it from doing its role). 

The only effective build for the model is dual butcher cannons as it will allow it to rapidly destroy -av12 vehicles in rapid succession earning around 100-150pts a kill (All other weapons are not even wroth mentioning). As this is its optimal build, taking mark of tzeentch is essential as it will increase it ranged hit rate to just under that of a BS4 model.

Also of note is the fact that the regular CSM contemptor is in all respects a fairly bad buy by comparison as it only has one gun arm and generally half the survivability as a decimator (Any dread will rarely if ever survive it to make CC with current army builds so DCCW are a none factor). Note it does not ignore stunned or shaken has a horrible save against penetrating hits, and only comes into its own with mark of nurgle.

The fact is the model fills a essential gap that is only really covered by auto cannon havocs and that is long range anti-medium vehicle fire power. Oblitorators are low out put high strength or extremely close range anti heavy tank, the defiler is a long rang ordinance platform, and every other choice is only effective at close range. Also as it takes a elite slot rather then heavy it will be key to CSM dakka lists (Something not really seen since 3.5 edd)

All in all it fills a role that is otherwise absent in the army and as such it can play a pivotal role is some army builds.

Note: FW models are still strictly restricted in most circles so its role is almost a none issue.


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## Ravner298

Technically possesssion isnt a -1 BS, its just an automatic BS 3. I think it's intention is to be a weapon platform, but again....for 210 points? Nobody will let it get to a transport vehicle. A reduction in points would probably make it worth while, or even bumping its AV up.


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## LukeValantine

Its got 36" range 8 shots at str8 how are they going to stop it from reaching a transport? Also note that this kind of ranged damage out put is unheard from any other vehicle in any current codex. Even at BS3 the damage potential of the build alone is what keeps it price so high.


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## CPT Killjoy

Daemonic Possession is included in the profile, so still BS3/WS3 as far as I can tell…..

I think the best way to field this thing is as is. If you start loading it out, it becomes to points heavy, and then a LR just makes more sense. Here is the though process with running it vanilla (if you can even call it that).

Run 2 x Siege Claws. At Str8, ignore armor saves, and re-roll "to wound” rolls, those 4 attacks are going to produce 3 wounds per turn (and/or one destroyed vehicle, should you be able to get near one) and that isn’t even counting the heavy flamers. If you take the heavy flamers into account, you can take out hordes of lesser enemies (Ork boys, termagaunts, panicking guardsmen, etc.), plus a small elite support unit without too much trouble. 

While I agree that walking across the field is an awful thought, it does provide you with two benefits (I still believe deep stirking it would be the best possible way to field something like this, don’t get me wrong, but we have to work with what we’ve got). Now on to the advantages:
First, you become a ten-ton distraction (which running the cheapest version mean’s that’s not the worst thing in the world) and you can automatically determine where you enemy is going to send it’s tank hunters/heavy weapons. This will allow you to plan accordingly, and set up counter units accordingly (Pred w/auto cannon/heavy bolter sponsons, Havocs with Autocannon spam, even the rarely used Raptors might be useful). Secondly, it forces your opponent to move any unit it doesn’t want utterly destroyed directly away from it and towards the remainder of your army. No current unit in CSM does that really (Who is afraid of a Chaos Dread or Defiler? No one sadly). The thought here is that since it has only CCW, the enemy will naturally move away from it, except with units that it thinks can handle the beast (so high-end elites and tank hunters). You can again use this to your tactical advantage. After all, knowing what the enemy plans to do is about the biggest advantage you can have. 

While I think there are other loadouts that could work, the simplest loadout seems to be the most points effective, and should allow you to do some real harm. Hell, come to think of it, give this thing a little brother (CCW Dread) or two and really watch the fun. You can’t escape them all!


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## CPT Killjoy

Also, I would like to say i do understand that it is really just a big Dread at this point, but that doesn't stop it from being useful. Especially without 'Crazed' and with two heavy flamers.


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## Ravner298

LukeValantine said:


> Its got 36" range 8 shots at str8 how are they going to stop it from reaching a transport? Also note that this kind of ranged damage out put is unheard form a vehicle in any current codex. Even at BS3 the damage potential of the build alone is what keeps it price so high.


I wasn't perfectly clear, I was referring to it getting to assault a vehicle/transport to use its 8+2d6 and special rules for hitting the crew on a pen with its flamer. Indeed with even average rolls it has a high damage out put. But can it make its points back before it goes down? 210 is quite a bit for punching a vehicle in the mouth every turn (assuming it stays up)



> Run 2 x Siege Claws. At Str8, ignore armor saves, and re-roll "to wound” rolls, those 4 attacks are going to produce 3 wounds per turn (and/or one destroyed vehicle, should you be able to get near one) and that isn’t even counting the heavy flamers.


Problem being its only I3. If it assaults a unit, it wont be able to get to the hidden PF in time. If it assaults a dread, it'll die before it attacks. I dont think using it for CC is a great idea. A small yet important thing to note is the side armor is lower than a reg dread, and everyone spams melta so you'd essentially be handing them an easy kill, versus giving it double ranged and keeping it back and if possible in cover


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## LukeValantine

Your fairly well protected against it going down turn one as only 2 results on the pen chart and 0 on the glance chart really pose a threat to the walker. Keep in mind that its a glass sword unit, and no one seems to be complaining about the other such units like the ravangers or psyflemen dread (note psyflemen dreads aren't cheap.

Also the argument about it getting wrecked turn 1 also can be applied two fold for any other vehicle in the book as a lucky shot can take down a land raider turn one.

Note that if it had AV13-14 it would easily be 300+ points as its rules tend to make it outright ignore the vast majority of damage done to it. Imagine a land raider that had possession and 5+ inv saves against 33.333% of all results. 

Also if you want to just run the decimator as a distraction unit then at least have the common sense to spend the 15 points to make it all but unkillable via mark of nurgle.


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## CPT Killjoy

Fair point about the Mark of Nurgle. I had thought about it, but the chance of rolling a 1 twice seems to counter-act the benifits of possibly rolling a 6. Would have to play around with it to see how well it would work. I can deffinitly see this monster effectivly acting as a "rifleman" with twin Butchers. Again though, at that point cost, wouldn't a Land Radier be the better option? I dont have a codex in front of me right now, but I would think the duel twin'linked LC's would be fairly close to the Butcher cannons for the points. Plus the LR is a functional transport, so you have that benifit as well, and it's not like either one of them is going to benifit from cover in general. I would also think the Av 14 about even's up with the AV 12 + special rule. 

I think the melta spam really counters any current Mech, and this thing is no exception. I don't believe that it makes it unusuable in CC, it just requires support. Plus two heavy flamers are going to help soften up any unit/units that will normally use melta spam


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## LukeValantine

CPT Killjoy said:


> Fair point about the Mark of Nurgle. I had thought about it, but the chance of rolling a 1 twice seems to counter-act the benifits of possibly rolling a 6.


Generally a 1 is considered a failed roll not a success, so you re-roll it. Hence why people say its invincible (Their not talking about it being more likely to come back their talking about it being almost impossible to remove as you have to roll two ones.

It also means you can re-roll the 5+ inv save against weapon destroyed and immobilized. (both rules are under the heading of unholy vigor)


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## LukeValantine

CPT Killjoy said:


> I think the melta spam really counters any current Mech, and this thing is no exception. I don't believe that it makes it unusuable in CC, it just requires support. Plus two heavy flamers are going to help soften up any unit/units that will normally use melta spam


Mech means mechanized infantry, melta only works at 6-12 inches, this thing when properly loaded out will always be at least 24" away.


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## MidnightSun

I hope to get one with a claw and a Butcher Cannon, but I might take twin Cannons or twin Claws. I quite like the 'shoot into transports' kinda rule, makes this thing a proper vehicle-killer (Strength 8, 2D6 Pen, now dis I like).

Midnight


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## zacktheRipper

I think that the Butcher Cannon build is probably the only really impressive one, yet for maybe a little more points, you can get a unit of Autocannon Havocs, a vanilla Rhino, and some extra 'meat' marines. It is an undeniably beautiful model, one that I am looking forward to owning, but rules wise it isn't very impressive. I'd say spend them elsewhere, but buy the model to look pretty.


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## LukeValantine

I think I will name my first decimator the bullet sponge.


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## Ravner298

> Generally a 1 is considered a failed roll not a success, so you re-roll it. Hence why people say its invincible (Their not talking about it being more likely to come back their talking about it being almost impossible to remove as you have to roll two ones


Interesting. I hadn't thought of rerolling a 1. I figured it was over and done with the first time you rolled the 1 (which is probably their intention). 

As for loadout, I originally was going to do claw/butcher....but everyone on their brother runs MSU melta up here, so double butcher it is. Should be fun!


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## Words_of_Truth

Hmm I already got a Blood Slaughterer, yet to get a defiler but planning on adding one, CC one would be fluffy but do I really need that much cc, when I already got Khorne Terminators, Greater Daemon, two squads of Bezerkers, a dread with a lascannon and CCW and the Blood Slaughterer which is like a fast dreadnought.


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## MidnightSun

zacktheRipper said:


> I think that the Butcher Cannon build is probably the only really impressive one, yet for maybe a little more points, you can get a unit of Autocannon Havocs, a vanilla Rhino, and some extra 'meat' marines. It is an undeniably beautiful model, one that I am looking forward to owning, but rules wise it isn't very impressive. I'd say spend them elsewhere, but buy the model to look pretty.


But Autocannon Havocs aren't manouvrable, are vulnerable to many more weapons, and aren't Strength 8.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine

MidnightSun said:


> But Autocannon Havocs aren't manouvrable, are vulnerable to many more weapons, and aren't Strength 8.
> 
> Midnight


True, but in hovoks defense they are almost impossible to eliminate with a single lucky shot depending on what cover their in and how many wound holders you attach.


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## Warped Bitz

LukeValantine said:


> True, but in hovoks defense they are almost impossible to eliminate with a single lucky shot depending on what cover their in and how many wound holders you attach.


But they can also be killed by Anti Infantry fire whilst the Decimator cant?, both have their ups and downs, Obviously Havocs go alot better with a more infantry oriented list where as a Decimator would suit a Dread/Prince/Rhino Spam

Both have their ups and downs, all that I know is I cant wait to get my grubby mitts on that model and nurgle it up!!


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## LukeValantine

True, to bad half the gaming centers I know still don't allow any FW models in regular play. COWARDS!


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## Sephyr

I like it except for the I3. The plain build +mark of Nurgle seems to be a cool horde-cleaner, but hidden power klaws and fists are a big concern.

The WS of 3 just boggles my mind, though, especially on such a pricy model. So trapped Warp incarnations of slaughter and fury are just average at melee?


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## Words_of_Truth

Think the WS represents how cumbersome it is, although that's just an idea.


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## Supersonic Banana

I think that the WS thing is more about it not being able to see properly using the targetting systems (imagine putting on some beer goggles and then fighting someone).

Anyway if I got grabbed from my home, stuffed into a box and given a weapon there would just be a mess, skill goes right out the window when you're that pissed off.


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## MidnightSun

Yeah. Anyone remember the Daemonically possessed tank from Gereon in Gaunt's Ghosts? That fucker couldn't drive for shit (but it still did alarming amounts of damage, it must be said).

Midnight


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## Calamari

I'm going to make myself unpopular here but I think cc decimators are a good idea, in certain lists anyway, ie deamons. Then they get deamonic assault.

I run a deamonzilla army. 2 greater deamons, 2/3 princes or a soul grinder. The general plan is to drop all these heavy hitters into my opponents face at once and this generally works. Decimators give me another bunch of big guys to throw down. I have a plan to get 3. 1 nurgle with butcher cannons and 2 with slaanesh and smoke launchers. When they come down, they pop smoke and next turn they start wrecking stuff, especially looking for units camping on objectives.

They are still really pricy compared to what a prince can do but this way I have more units. I hope they drop the points or at least bump ws,bs and initiative to 4


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## clever handle

I've run the decimator with nurgle & 2 BC's in two games now. He's a true beast! Of course the only time he's had a penetrating hit stick it resulted in an explosion.....

Re: the argument that MoN makes you twice as likely to roll a '1' on your reanimation roll - this is flawed. If you roll a 1 on the first dice toss you roll again & have a 5/6 chance to NOT roll another 1, also you still have a 1/6 chance to roll a 6.
If you roll a 6 first - you stop....

The WS3 / BS3 / I3 statline puts it on par with the defiler - the other daemon engine... that is the price you pay for ignoring 1's & 2's on the damage chart... it isn't as bad as folks make it out to be. Treat it like a dreadnought - don't fight dreadnoughts, don't fight assault terminators, try to avoid combat with PF's (though 2 attacks from a PF isn't really that scary after the Decimator unloads 6? S8 attacks on the charge...)

I run mine with (2) dreadnoughts c/w autocannon / ML, (2) Defilers, nurgle prince & a bunch of melta / plasma plague marines at 1600pts... quite fun.


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