# Raven Guard Vs. The Night Lords (Post Heresy)



## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

So just as the title says, who do you think would win in an all out fight, the Night Lords or the Raven Guard. The fight would take place at a ruined hive city (no PDF). Both specialize in hit and run, sneak attacks, and "black-op" missions. I think the Raven Guard have a chance if they chapter fought as a whole, since fluff wise the companies fight as individual units, rarely banding together for a single cause. All thoughts and comments are welcome.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Well lets see...
Raven Guard: Space Marines, 1000 of them.....thats about it...
Night Lords: Space Marines, Chaos powers, MANY more of them, daemons...
Night Lords win


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Post heresy is slightly silly man, no offense. The chaos legions are fucking huge compared to the chapters. Kind of a dumb question really. It's like asking how a fire team would do against a company.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Its like asking one guardsman to fight twenty Astartes.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

Well how about this if it was 1000 versus 1000 who would win??
and i meant like during the Heresy so legion against legion or as said above


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Irrelevent, it wouldnt happen, the Raven Guard rarely ever assemble their full might and the Night Lords are either in huge warbands of over a thousand Marines or in tiny bands of maybe a dozen.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

During the heresy? That's even worse. The night lords were at legion strength and the RG has just been obliterated.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> During the heresy? That's even worse. The night lords were at legion strength and the RG has just been obliterated.


Indeed, plus Curze was still able to fight while Corax would be in shambles after losing most of his legion.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I think were all nit picking. He means put the Night Lords and Raven Guard Legions together in a legion sized fight during the heresy to omit the use of deamons and superior tech so their level on that plane and it came down to a matter of technique. Ignore the details, because (and correct me if I'm wrong WinZip) he question is when they were both Space marines, which of their tactics would prevail.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

:goodpost: Thank you Helsreach! you actually get it!


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Again irrelevent as it would never happen, the only time they would ever fight each other is after the Heresy and then the Night Lords would have help from their Primarch whereas the Raven Guard wouldnt also the Night Lords would out number them massivly and would have Daemonic Assistance along with the fact that if anything could cause doubt or uncertainty in Astartes then the Night Lords are the ones to do it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Then we have already had this debate. My answer: use the search function.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

It seems a bit pointless not to enter an opinion now. I'm a CM fan but I'm gunna go with Raven Guard. Stealth is more of a combat tactic whilst terror is a long term approach and Space Marines know no fear after all. Then again it may take the form of assasination of the command structure, but even then I think it would still tip in favour of the average marines skills and tactics so still Raven Guard


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Astartes do know fear however they have the mental training to ignore it as just another message to the brain. Terror and disruption will still work on Astartes just not nearly as well.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Captain Sillos why do you even bother posting when your posts are irrelevant to this discussion? This is IF this happens and what are the results. He also clarified that this is not a legion vs decimated legion fight but by even numbers for both sides. 

Sure Night Lords have daemonic assisstance at times but thats if they are prepared to bring lots of prisoners and bodies and even then it takes time to prepare chaos rituals. They dont happen just whenever you want. I can see that Night Lords tactics include assassination of head military figures, hit and run tactics, sabotage, infiltration, distruption, raids, and terror inducing methods. Also Night Lords rarely travel in large packs because it would ruin their maneuverability and traveling large would slow them down and make them noticeable. 

Raven Guard have hit and run elements and tactics like bikes, jump pack infantry and land speeders Shrike would own any Night Lord that got in his way. The two SM's legions are very similar in tactics both specialising in stealth and small infiltration and assault squads. I imagine this battle being like a massive "peeka boo" fight of who can surprise who more.

I would have to go with NL because they would have more veteran sm then RG and their extra bonuses they get for being with chaos really strengthens them compared to RG who dont really have anything special post heresy.

I have seen the previous RG vs NL and that is pre-heresy not post.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Captain Sillos (Who the hell is Captain Sillos? why do you even bother posting when your posts are irrelevant(Nope, I've been posting why most of the arguements are irrelevant) to this discussion? This is IF this happens and what are the results. He also clarified that this is not a legion vs decimated legion fight but by even numbers for both sides. (Which could NEVER happen)
> 
> Sure Night Lords have daemonic assisstance at times (All the time as the Night Lords have large amounts of possessed marines) but thats if they are prepared to bring lots of prisoners and bodies and even then it takes time to prepare chaos rituals. (Yes this is true however it does not take very long to summon lesser daemons or even heralds just don't expect Bloodthirsters or anything) They dont happen just whenever you want. I can see that Night Lords tactics include assassination of head military figures(Which can be replaced quickly), hit and run tactics, sabotage (Both of which would not work very well as the Raven Guard would do the exact same thing at the exact same time so no-one would be there to hit), and fear inducing methods. Also Night Lords rarely travel in large packs because it would ruin their maneuverability and traveling large would slow them down and make them noticeable. (Not sure if you've seen an Astartes before but they tend to be huge eight foot tall battle armoured death machines, there isnt that much stealthy about them, if they can move a few of them around quietly then they can move quiet a lot)
> 
> ...


Ten letters long.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

This is easily one of the most annoying fucking things i can see in a post. It's called a hypothetical question people, so stop fucking saying shit like "It wouldn't happen" "nope they wouldn't do that" it contributes nothing to the conversation in anyway. 

So for the rest of us. RG vs NL on a level playing ground, with even numbers. Gonna be a close one. I think RG would have the upper hand in the end though. The NL could be said to be stealth specialists aswell, but they have nothing on the RG. The NL did terror tactics, using fear as a weapon to defeat there enemies as much as anything else. The RG are complete stealth specialists and able find the enemies weakest points and hit them hard. So yeah, im gonna go with RG ultimately. The probelm is when you add in the NL being able to summon deamonic allies, which could dratically change the battle, but then if we are gonna let the NL add deamonic allies into the equation, then we should be able to add Grey Knights or other Ordo Malleus forces into the fight. 

I think RG vs Alpha Legion would be a better comparison, and then i think its AL all the way


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Sorry AoB, its been done already because in Hunt for Voldurius, they already lost and they lost a daemon prince also. (though the White Scars pitching in was a little too much. In a realistic full fight and none of that 2 forces ambush the Alpha legion crap, I would say Alpha legion would win because they can not only do all the stealthy stuff but they can hold up in a battle far longer seeing as they took on the Ultramarines head on and their tactical prowess is almost legendary. but must get back on topic.

Also you have to take into account for the many veterans present in the NL's forces, while RG are relatively noobs seeing as alot of the previous veterans were all almost wiped out during the horus heresy, though that can be taken with a grain of salt since they have had time to regrow and gain new veterans. Sure terror tactics would be used, but wouldnt the Night Lords know specifically that SM are much tougher mentally and would know that SM are trained to combat fear? So in the sense that NL actually used common sense when fighting a similar opponent they would alter their tactics against them to whatever was more effective stealth, infiltration, raids, disruption, etc.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Again didn't we have this entire discussion a few weeks back? I am fairly certain we did. But, since we are ignoring that entire thread, might as well.

Dre, 
RG are guarilla warfare specialists, it would be sillly to try and outdo them in that respect because you would be fighting a war on their terms. 

IMO, just like I said in the other thread, I believe the NL aren't the best legion in a fight against other astartes. RG win it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Sorry WinZip about all this pointless nitpicking. But next time try using the search engine pal. :grin:

As for the topic, I like the odds for the Night Lords. I think that the Night Lords have a better tactical arsenal than the Raven Guard. Raven Guard tend to be better off in close quarters and when they conceal themselves long enough to get close to the enemy. The Night Lords are good at this too, though they may not be as good as the Night Lords. But overall, I'm liking the Night Lords in an overall "all out war."


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Right before I post my own opinion I'll address something that made me chuckle because of it's inaccuracy:



Captain Stillios said:


> Irrelevent, it wouldnt happen, the Raven Guard rarely ever assemble their full might and the Night Lords are either in huge warbands of over a thousand Marines or in tiny bands of maybe a dozen.


So would that mean the Night Lords rarely assemble their own full strength?
*No* Legion assembled it's entire strength unless directed to do so, and Post-Heresy no Legion assembles it's entire strength- especially the Night Lords who are a shattered Legion, one of the most ill-equipped of the all the Traitors.


Captain Stillios said:


> Again irrelevent as it would never happen, the only time they would ever fight each other is after the Heresy and then the Night Lords would have help from their Primarch whereas the Raven Guard wouldnt also the Night Lords would out number them massivly and would have Daemonic Assistance along with the fact that if anything could cause doubt or uncertainty in Astartes then the Night Lords are the ones to do it.


No, the Night Lords would not have daemonic assistant if Curze was still alive, he hated Chaos and it's corrupting influence- it was warily considered a mercurial ally rather than something to serve or rely on.

After the Heresy the Raven Guard would have had at least just as much aid from their Primarch as the Night Lords, with the distinction that Corax loved his Legion whilst Night Haunter hated his.

And as of 40k I can't think of a single NL warband that is large enough to challenge the RG Chapter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion on the matter is that in equal numbers the Raven Guard would defeat the Night Lords, there would be heavy losses but I see it as acceptable losses for the Sons of Corax.
The NL are terror troops first and foremost, they operate on the principle that anything that unhinges an opponent makes that enemy weaker for the final coup de grace, the Raven Guard are guerilla fighters, who specialise in stealth first and foremost- their style of attack is to hit hard from a unwatched angle after cutting supplies to their enemy. That distinction would work much more handily against an Astartes opponent in my opinion.

Instead of attempting to provoke psychological trauma in an enemy who is extremely difficult to find let alone force into open warfare, watching and waiting patiently for a weakness to appear seems the more logical and effective tactic.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> he hated Chaos and it's corrupting influence- it was warily considered a mercurial ally rather than something to serve or rely on.


Unless of course Acerbus was actually telling the truth/correct in his assumptions.



Baron Spikey said:


> And as of 40k I can't think of a single NL warband that is large enough to challenge the RG Chapter.


Well Krieg Acerbus commands the largest Night Lords warband, and even if the post-Heresy Night Lords numbers are half of their pre-Heresy Legion size, it's easily an acceptable assumption that Acerbus' warband numbers over one thousand.

As for the debate. As people have rightly stated, the Night Lords are specialised terror troops, but I fail to see how that would give them any form of disadvantage against another force of Astartes.

Obviously such psychological tactics are no way near as effective against other Astartes, but the Night Lords are fully aware of such a thing. They wouldn't employ the same tactics against Astartes as they would against mere mortals. The Night Lords in my eyes are just as specialised in unconventional warfare as they are in psychological warfare. I think people are ruling them out all too easily.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

They're supposed to be fighting in a riuned hive, right? So trying to bring that into it, I going to go with the RG to win.
Basically, we know that the NL like to take their time with an attack; they interfere with comms, hit smaller, outlying targets with extreme brutality but allow this to be reported and then push inwards to the centre of where they want to conquer. Comms that had been used to spread the horrible news and pictures are suddenly taken out of the control of the authorities and turned into a weapon, used entirely at the NL's whim. No messages go out, only screams and pleas echo around the system as the pockets of habitation get smaller and smaller. There is also the fact that the NL like to pick on those that they know they can beat- it's not so easy to inspire total terror when you have some thoughts that you might get killed.
In a ruined hive, how would the NL go about doing this to the RG? Most methods of terror-causing wouldn't work. Maybe if the NL got hold of some of their opponent's serfs, but that's a big maybe. I imagine that most Astartes would see the sacrifice of these lives, as long as it's going towards the victory, as acceptable. To my mind, this means that the situation comes down to Marine vs Marine and what tactics and thoughts they bring to the fight.
Firstly, the RG seem to be more unified. The NL has started to break down as psychopaths and killers are inducted. I would imagine that these Marines have more of a mindset of 'what am I going to get out of this?' Not all, certainly, but it would have to figure; after all, why should Brother A risk himself when he might be able to get Brother B to do it, making Brother C's gang that much weaker and so allowing his boss, Brother D, to make a move and maybe Brother A will get some of the glory. Whilst they aren't saints, the RG seem to be an actual brotherhood, as Astartes are meant to be. Which means that Brother L will sacrifice himself so that *all* of his brothers benefit, not just his close friends.
In the dark and wet, you have the RG specialising in hit-and-run, guerilla tactics, the NL specialising in psych-warfare and terror tactics. With all of the above, I reckon that it would be the RG who would win. That, of course, only stands if we don't have the full panoply of Chaos powers for the NL, in which case a dark, ruined hive might suddenly become a lot more deadly, and scarey, for the RG.
Did any of that make sense?

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Problem is a lot of the Astartes Legions/Primarchs are redundant in that they share similar if not identical traits/ideologies or styles of warfare.

Ferrus Manus /Vulkan 

Rogal Dorn/Perturabo

Leman Russ/Angron

Alpharius/Lion El Johnson

Fulgrim/Sanguinius

Horus/Lorgar

Etc.

If they were all different in a clear cut way, this argument would easily be settled.

So in this case, we have the Night Lords who are masters of night warfare and stealth and the Raven Guard who are masters of guerrilla warfare and stealth.

Both legions fight almost identically with the exception that the former places their emphasis on terror tactics while the latter revolves around hit and run attacks.

If the two legions were to combat one another in the cover of night, I'd have to say the Night Lords definitely have the advantage whereas the Raven Guard would most likely be victorious if the battle took place on a large, bright field. 

But then again the Night Lords are very aggressive and if I am not mistaken prefer close quarters combat while the latter are _calmer _and prefer to attack from a far.

I would think that the Night Lords are 'infantry killers' in the sense that their tactics would without a doubt work on normal Imperial Guard/human soldiers while they wouldn't be as effective with other Astartes for obvious reasons. The Night Lords would do well against human regiments embedded within the Raven Guard's legion/chapter for example while the Raven Guard would be more suited for surprise attacks on convoy lines or reinforcements perhaps.

In summary, it all boils down to individual Astartes since the two legions are almost a mirror match of one another. 

And let's not forget about the Alpha Legion, masters of stealth and hit & run tactics in their own right which again just goes to show how similar certain Legions are to one another which makes such A vs B scenarios pretty much end in a stalemate until the fans start to get biased and play favorites while ignoring the facts.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

If both are masters of hit-and-run, guerilla warfare and stealth, how is it possible that bith NL and RG aren't both equally adept at night-fighting? It doeas rather seem that your saying the NL rule the night, but the RG rule the day is a bit, well, arbitrary.
Darkness suits both groups as it allows small squads to move around unseen and to strike from the shadows.
With Corax having fought against his slavers on Deliverance, he probably looked for the darkness of the mines to hide his troops and their movements/intentions; that would be passed on to his Legion/Successor Chapters. I think, in this case, the darkness would cancel-out.

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> If both are masters of hit-and-run, guerilla warfare and stealth, how is it possible that bith NL and RG aren't both equally adept at night-fighting?


The advantage the Night Lords have over the Raven Guard fighting in the dark I would say is mainly due to their vision, since they can see perfectly well in the dark or at least more so than other Legions without using their helm vision.

And because they're used to living in the dark, one can automatically assume they can move around under the cover of dark better than any other Legion, the Raven Guard included.



> It doeas rather seem that your saying the NL rule the night, but the RG rule the day is a bit, well, arbitrary.


I'm not saying the Raven Guard aren't any good stalking around in the dark, but I'm certain they aren't nearly as good as the Night Lords for it is their natural habitat.




> Darkness suits both groups as it allows small squads to move around unseen and to strike from the shadows.





> With Corax having fought against his slavers on Deliverance, he probably looked for the darkness of the mines to hide his troops and their movements/intentions; that would be passed on to his Legion/Successor Chapters.





> I think, in this case, _the darkness would cancel-out_.


Didn't get what you mean.

My impression is that the Raven Guard are more suited for ambushing targets (ie. convoys, reinforcements) as opposed to the Night Lords stalking around (going around armies and coming up from behind them ninja like).


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

By canceling-out, I mean that the NL's natural proficiency in the dark would be just as good as troops trained and equipped to fight in the dark. After all, the NLs will be using the autosenses of their helms just as much as their foes, unless they're all going bareheaded; at which point the night vision is offset by losing their helm's ability to block occular/auditory overloads.
The NL is a group of individuals, used to picking on the weak; the RG are a united group and fight whoever, weak or strong. Both own the night. The NL don't use small-team tactics, but overwhelming force against those who won't be able to resist (it's the target that's small, not the NL force)- that's part of the terror. The RG use small-team tactics as their preferred doctrine. With all this said, they're both very similar and quite even. That's why I go for the RG and their cohesivness, over the NL's individuality and selfishness.

GFP

ps. Your last sentence- if an army is able to do the first thing with regularity, then the ability to do the second thing is going to follow on naturally.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I agree with GFP.

The Night Lords abilities lend themselves well to warfare against the weak, and easily terrified (no duh) They may have skill at infiltration, but they arent on the same level as Corax's Raven Guard, as has been often said, they are a mirror image of each other, well mirror images are opposites  

They stem from the same general idea on warfare, but took differant paths. The style of the Raven Guard lends itself better to this engagement.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I suppose I should say that I'm saying that the RG would win in this hypothetical situation, and it certainly wouldn't be an easy victory or without the probability of heavy losses.
In other situations, in other parts of the galaxy, the NL will have the upper hand, no doubt, and would wipe out a RG force of equal size.

GFP


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