# Why are Guardsmen armoured so poorly?



## Lawkeeper (Dec 30, 2008)

How come they give guardsmen (well, Cadians) just a flak jacket? Give them a few 'flak pads', like knee pads, elbow and forearm protectors!
Imagine: an Ork Slugga round races towards you and hits your knee at a slight angle. Of course, your knee gets blown off. But what if you'd worn a flak pad? The bullet will have probably bounced off your knee and you'd be able to merrily fight on!


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Guard do have one kneepad, but it's mostly for kneeling to fire crouched. Mostly it's cost. There are hundreds of billions of Guard in the universe, armoring them all would be a nightmare. That's why they're deployed in such numbers. After a while, a wall of bodies absorbs all the bullets you need!

-Dirge


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

its because the manufactorium sees that its only worth protecting the vitals like the head, chest area and the lower shin where the shin armour is on the boots, sholders because without arms you cant fight.

and also there is billions on each planet so if they protect every body part you would have less ammo and other gear.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

they're armed so poorly because theres so damn many of them lol

there's only so many space marines, and that's why they get the best stuff; obviously, its the opposite in the guard's case


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

Omg why is this even a question...

Because they are guardsmen. Have you not read the quotes that are in the codexs and books

"I expend ammunition and men in equal measure" - Commisar Vulyarn Vostoryans 8th

No one gives a crap about guardsmen (and i play and love this army) All the guardsmen are good for is holding what the marines have gained and protecting tanks. Its in the manual lol


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## keytag33 (Apr 20, 2008)

Because they're the squishy things that stop the bullets from hitting the valuble targets like tanks and whatnot.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

the same reason i only have a kevlar helmet and vest...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

do you really think a flak pad is gonna stop his knee being blown off?, looks how thick a flak jacket has to be to stop a bullet from for example a 7.62mm round, now apply that thickness to your knees, your guardsmen suddenly suffer from being in difficult terrain for the whole game


pchandler43 said:


> a kevlar helmet


and they've already proved how much they can....or should we say cannot stop :biggrin:


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

Because there are hundreds of trillions of them. I can't think of what comes after trillion. They don't need good gear, their sheer numbers will wear you down, and let them be victorious. You know like the Russians did against the Germans, and what China will do to the rest of Asia when they decide to take it over. I know you're not supposed to start a land war in Asia but when you have a standing army of almost 1.5 billion people, who's really going to stop you? Besides the Siberian winter of course. :biggrin:


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> and they've already proved how much they can....or should we say cannot stop :biggrin:


helmets aren't designed to stop bullets...


...just shrapnel and ricochets


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

and if your really worried about it buy the Carapace Amour upgrade for you Guard Infantry


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

lol carpace for each soldier...thats not worth it


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Ive done some experimenting with it and it can be effective sometime. Look at bolters, AP5 right, now if you upgrade to Carapace Armour then your actually getting a save against Marines. Its also proved good against 'nids in combat


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

As said it is simply the fact there are so many to supply armour for . Although taking it from a perspective of todays look taking casulties in war its just rediculous for IG they simply just get on with losing thousand of people.

For most IG commanders reports probably sound quite like this "sir we've lost half the army by a stray shopping bag " commander's reply ? "Everythings going to plan then"


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

well if you have got and read the imperial guards uplifter primer it says that your faith will protect you more then your armour which is practicaly true considdering they have carboard armour.

also that you are nothing.so sacrificing yourself in the emperor is considdered good for some stupid reason if it kills the enemy


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Got to love Imperial motivation eh, so ...... invigerating


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

after I read it I felt they could defeat anything even the void of space! hold your breath


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Armor costs money, the dead cost nothing...simple economics to the generals


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## Shugotenshi47 (Mar 2, 2008)

If you get shot by an Ork Slugga in the knee and some how magically your crappy armored knee pad (which has to be obscenely heavy and bulky to the point where you better off ditching it to run to cover faster in order for it to be any good at the massive rounds they are throwing around in 40k) is not penetrated by the round your knee cap is shattered and you lie on the ground screaming horribly and you might as well just have had your leg shot off because either random gunfire is going to kill you or the commissar decides your screams are bad for morale and shoots you. So you die and you just wasted the Imperium a bunch of time and money making those knee pads that do not do crap.


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

I see it like this, No need to equip the millions of soldiers fighting mostley conventional wars. Most IG regiments only see duty fighting like equipped enemys. So they are "state of the art" if you will. Now the units that get into the more specialized combat theaters get better equipment. Storm Troopers. Those that are fighting against CSM or the better armored and armed forces are usually in place in high numbers and the rate of loss and replacement is more cost effective than equipping with better and more advanced gear. Plus if fluff is to be considered they ARE at the cutting edge of technology for military hardware. The soldiers of the Imperium are sent to battle with the finest and most protective armor that mankind can produce, cost is not even a consideration. :taunt:


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

The cost of equipping everyone with Carapace armor is ridiculous compared to equipping everyone with body bags!

-Dirge


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## Captain Mike (Dec 24, 2008)

There's the cost, and also the problem with armour. A flak vest, steel helmet and steel shoulder pads isn't much weight on you (steel is surprisingly light, try wearing a WWI British helmet, light as a feather), but you start adding kneepads (which we've worked out are useless) gauntlets, groin guards, leg armour, and anywhere else suddenly you've got a trooper who's so worn out he can't fight. Add to that a gun (I don't know how heavy a lasgun is, but if its like a Lee-Enfield or Thompson it'll be very heavy), extra ammo, grenades (again, heavy) and general equipment it'll weigh more than the trooper himself.

Plus movement. Ever seen a knight fight? Very clumsy, relying more on his enemy not being able to hurt him so he can strike when he can. Now imagine your enemy CAN hurt you, and you're blundering around with no movement. Dead in a few seconds. Flak vests don't cover the abdomen, which seems stupid (ever seen Saving Private Ryan, with the US ranger trying to hold is innards in) as theres a lot of blood and organs there, but armouring it will mean you can't bend over, so you can't leap into cover (which is better) and you have a lot of dead troopers.

Just my thought. I'm not military, so I don't know quite HOW heavy all the gear is but what I've tried its pretty harsh.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Dirge Eterna said:


> The cost of equipping everyone with Carapace armor is ridiculous compared to equipping everyone with body bags!
> 
> -Dirge


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA :laugh::laugh::laugh:

very good mate, very good. I guess we can supperise this intire arguement by saying that there IG, they were born to suck


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

I imagine that the imperium doesn't have the resources, manufacturing capability or knowledge to give the entire Guard proper armour. The sheer number of Guardsmen also exasperates the problem. Besides, for the Guard its quantity not quality that owns the day.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Justicar Auarilius said:


> Omg why is this even a question...
> 
> Because they are guardsmen. Have you not read the quotes that are in the codexs and books
> 
> ...


Exactly the point is that guardsmen are expendable.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

Captain Mike said:


> Flak vests don't cover the abdomen


Yes it does


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Wouldn't be much of a flak vest if it just covered your nipples :wink:

"Oh I've been shot in the stomach"

"But at least your nips are fine..."


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I think the main thing is that Guardsmen are expandable so no point wasting resources on them.
I mean look in the Vraks books they worked out many men they needed and how many could die for each meter of ground they covered.
Also remember 70% of guard will be fitting against other humans. It seems that most guard dont go upagainst Xenos or CSM much at all. So maybe there armour would be ok against, lasguns.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Wouldn't be much of a flak vest if it just covered your nipples :wink:
> 
> "Oh I've been shot in the stomach"
> 
> "But at least your nips are fine..."


OH MY NIPPLES EXPLODE WITH DELIGHT!


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

pchandler43 said:


> OH MY NIPPLES EXPLODE WITH DELIGHT!


funny thing is if you hover your mouse over the OH then it comes up with ordo hereticus, so it makes it sound like a quote.

pointless but i find it humorous


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## Huffy (Nov 25, 2008)

well they are guardsmen, they were born to die
I imagine this is a Guard commander "drown the enemy with your blood men, it just might work better than your flashlights"


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## muffinman82 (Oct 29, 2008)

beinging a marine my combat load is pushing close to 70 to 85 lbs. 
combat load consisting of: flac jacket front,back,and two side sappi plates groin protector, neck guard, rifle, filled ammo clips, and kevlar.
I was a heavy equipment operator and with all that crap on is was just about impossible to effectively operate let alone trying to climb into on of our trucks so i am glad uncle sam is a cheap skate and dosent give us any more useless crap to carry around!


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## WarbossCrunk (Aug 31, 2008)

It's not so much the cost, for the most part each planet raises and equips its own PDF. Some may get drafted into being a part of the larger Imperial guard and go on the great crusades etc. but for the most part guard are doing that just guarding. Their role is more of a defensive one. It's the well-equipped specialists like the space marines who tend to engage in offense. If someone is going to be going into the heart of enemy forces its going to be the shock forces of the marines. Guard are primarily there to act be a defense force. They guard the supply lines, major cities and planets. For the most part, guard are going to be dug in and using trenches, minefields, and fortresses.


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

the flak jackets arent their armor the mass of bodies is. they dont need aromor a bullet can onlyh go through so many bodies before it stops


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Kendares said:


> the flak jackets arent their armor the mass of bodies is. they dont need aromor a bullet can onlyh go through so many bodies before it stops


Book 34 Section 6 Chapter 105 Page 33 Secton 2a of the Tactica Imperium if i remember right XD


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

:goodpost: lol. i wouldnt be surprised if that was in the hand book


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

Consider the imperiums budget. To be honest, their 'actual' warmachine are the astartes and the titan legios. so technically, the IG are just the meat shield. time buyers you could say, and they have lots, billions of them actually, so consider the budget purchasing power armor for everyone of them. they will surely go bankrupt


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## Evil Monkey (Dec 15, 2008)

sorry but lets clear up some points...firstly Grik, the china has a standing army of 2.25 million plus 800 thousand reserves, your own army has 1.38 million with 1.4 million reserves but having nearly twice as many aircraft (and the British) on your side it wouldnt be easy for them.

secondly on the subject of modern military kevlar armour, as mentioned its designed to stop shrapnel and only covers the lower abdomen to prevent the organs from falling out and creating fear in comrades. Just the same reason as the British army had red tunics.

As for IG most of the time they are used to deal with planetary uprisings, where the enemy only has solid shot or las weapons. In this case flak armour would be effective.
However, the main point is that the type and quality of IG armour is decided by the available resources when and where the regiment is formed.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

Evil Monkey said:


> secondly on the subject of modern military kevlar armour, as mentioned its designed to stop shrapnel and only covers the lower abdomen to prevent the organs from falling out and creating fear in comrades. Just the same reason as the British army had red tunics.


:no:
What are you talking about?


Kevlar vests stop bullets...up to 7.62. The helmets are only good for 9mm (which would probably break your neck from the impact velocity) and shrapnel.


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## LimitingFactor (Jan 11, 2009)

"Kevlar vests stop bullets...up to 7.62. The helmets are only good for 9mm (which would probably break your neck from the impact velocity) and shrapnel."

in the uk the equipment is not quite the same. I am sure you are only well aware of what your own kit can and cant do , but in UK .......

Our battle helmet can stop 5.56 rounds, 9ml rounds and ive seen results of 7.62 tests and again the helmet is effective.I bet your correct about the neck getting cracked though.
At the time i served (oddly enough as a guardsman) , i was worried about 50 cal rounds that can pass through both helmet, head and out the back of helmet.

The vest we use keeps our guts in place it has a kevlar plate about the size of a slice of bread. In the reverse of the vest is another plate. These will stop up to 7.62 if your lucky.
A 50-cal will go through the lot and out the back of any bergan or day sack you got on your back. 

If your vest gets hit there is a good chance the bullet will take some of the vest into your body and slowly kill you.

The only safe answer for guardsmen is to impress his commander so much he gets a posting to the stromtroopers. Almost impossible because they recruit from orphans. If you were that lucky you would attain stormtrooper armour a cool beret and some curb stomping boots 

Some body above pointed out that if you had armour above and beyond a vest and helmet , that you would find it hard to run and fight (spot on!).

Even with todays light armour (similer to IG kit) , it is bloody hard to fight or shoot as fast as you may in just webbing and berret.... add N.B.C (gas masks and chemical suits) and its a total nightmare.
--------------------------------

I would like to know why they get a crummy laz gun though when todays rifles are more effective....i know technology was lost but something as simple as ballistic rifles.... are better for pinning the enemy. My guess is you would require less training to use a lazgun. less marksmanship princeps required.


oh yes... whats the point in putting all that armour onto guardsmen if their commisar is going to neck shoot them in battle? lol


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## Evil Monkey (Dec 15, 2008)

kevlar plates can stop bullets but kevlar vests can not. The British military have never been interested in stopping bullets, just keeping all the bits of dead soldiers together and protecting against shrapnel.

However, i do know that the American cba has full front and back plates which gives far better protection then what the British had been using (the now have Ospray armour, which is great).


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## LimitingFactor (Jan 11, 2009)

How heavy is it , any idea? (osprey).


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Cost seems to be the most common answer. However, weight and mobility (two things mentioned a few times) are things I would think would play into this heavily. Flak armour is issued to basic ground pounders, who are going to be exposed to long term warfare. Fatigue is a big issue here. They are also, hopefully, going to have some over. If they are lucky, this is trenches, baracades or bunkers. They also may have a full combat pack containing everything they will need to survive (and die). I am no soldier, but I understand that not every soldier is Sly or Arnold and is still expected to carry a full combat load. Therefor, they componsate for this weight problem by giving the IG grunt a t-shirt :grin:.

A second matter is mobility. Carapace armour is effectively plate armour. Very bulky and hard to move in. Flak armour is generally light, allowing the soldiers to do the things soldiers have to do: running, jumping, climbing. The weight thing is also an issue here.

Lets look at most of the units that typical wear carapace armour: stormtroopers and grenadiers. Both are elite soldiers, with much higher standards then your average ground-pounders. They have to be stronger, tougher, and more dedicated. Therefore, they are capable of supporting that extra weight and bulkiness. They can handle the extra training necessary to operate and maintain this equipment, and they are generally not used for long term warfare. Most special forces, I assume, are meant for surgical strikes where they can get the most out of their force amplification equipment and tactics. No big pack (usually).

Finally, lets look at the enemies of the Imperium. The armies of the 40k that aren't Imperium represent the worst enemies of the imperium and, other then the Orks, renegade IG and LotD (oh, how I miss you), aren't that common. So maybe the basic armour of the IG are adequate to handle the common threats, like it is for the Orks (who's basic guns can't pierce flak)? Just something to think about.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Hate to be the bearer of bad news Cam, but basic ork guns can pierce through flak armour.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Hate to be the bearer of bad news Cam, but basic ork guns can pierce through flak armour.


Well technically, any weapon can pierce armour if the person rolls a 1 on their armour save. However, I ment that the game mechanics present that Sluggas and Shootas (not Big Shootas) cannot ignore the armour of a basic guardsman. Check the Codices.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

LimitingFactor said:


> I would like to know why they get a crummy laz gun though when todays rifles are more effective....i know technology was lost but something as simple as ballistic rifles.... are better for pinning the enemy. My guess is you would require less training to use a lazgun. less marksmanship princeps required.
> 
> 
> oh yes... whats the point in putting all that armour onto guardsmen if their commisar is going to neck shoot them in battle? lol



In some books it talks about IG units using ballistic weapons instead of the lasgun, as that is what their homeworld produces


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## Evil Monkey (Dec 15, 2008)

LimitingFactor said:


> I would like to know why they get a crummy laz gun though when todays rifles are more effective....i know technology was lost but something as simple as ballistic rifles.... are better for pinning the enemy. My guess is you would require less training to use a lazgun. less marksmanship princeps required.


Some IG do use ballistic rifles, the autogun and autopistol are like modern weapons and in game terms work the same as lasguns.

In fluff terms, lasguns are easier to care for and cheaper to build. Plus they cut down on the need for a big supply chain (the falling point for most armies), after all boxes of ballistic rounds are heavy and once fired are gone, las cartridges can be recharged after use from any external source (generator, wall socket, solar or heated in a fire). This means a guardsman will only ever need the las cartridges he's fist issued with, excluding lossed and/or damaged cells)


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## Evil Monkey (Dec 15, 2008)

This is a good example of how "good" kevlar is:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Evil Monkey said:


> Some IG do use ballistic rifles, the autogun and autopistol are like modern weapons and in game terms work the same as lasguns.
> 
> In fluff terms, lasguns are easier to care for and cheaper to build. Plus they cut down on the need for a big supply chain (the falling point for most armies), after all boxes of ballistic rounds are heavy and once fired are gone, las cartridges can be recharged after use from any external source (generator, wall socket, solar or heated in a fire). This means a guardsman will only ever need the las cartridges he's fist issued with, excluding lossed and/or damaged cells)


If I remember the fluff diagram presented in the 4th edition codex correctly, the IG slug throwers was depicted as a very large caliber weapons with large box magazines only holding some 20 cartridges. The ammunition seemed comparable in size to that of a 12g shotgun, but as rifle ammunition. My shoulder is hurting just thinking about it.

As for logistics, the lasgun is a great weapon. The IG codex talks about how the power cells will absorb energy from ambient sources, such as heat and light. They can recharge the cells by sunbathing them for a few hours. The troopers, in an emergency, can even throw the weapons onto a fire to charge them. Now what GI wouldn't love that?



Evil Monkey said:


> This is a good example of how "good" kevlar is:


Did that say '3 layers' of kevlar? I am pretty sure that most modern vests contain dozens of layers, if not more. But I am no expert.



LimitingFactor said:


> I would like to know why they get a crummy laz gun though when todays rifles are more effective....i know technology was lost but something as simple as ballistic rifles.... are better for pinning the enemy. My guess is you would require less training to use a lazgun. less marksmanship princeps required.


I mean no offense here, but what are you talking about? Crummy laz gun? The fluff I remember describes the standard issue las gun being able to remove a human limb at range with a single shot. Now, that could mean a lucky shot or a limb hit, or both, but that is still impressive power. I doubt that a modern battle rifle could do the same (and no, we don't live in Movie land where bullets work at the power of plot and special effects).

As for accuracy, its a freaking laser (well shave my head and put me in a mao suit!). That is what 'las' stands for (well, I am pretty thats what it stands for :mrgreen. Light travels in a straight line and the effects of standard gravity are negligible over short distances (say, under a mile [or roughly 1.6 kilometers]). Bullets, on the other hand, are fired in an arc so that they can resist the effects of gravity and travel farther.

As for suppression fire, people are going to keep their heads down no matter what you throw at them as long as it can kill them. If the Imperium of Man decided to invade Care-a-lot, I am sure that suppression fire from the Care-Bear-Stare would be just as effective as that from an M249.

Finally, I am pretty sure the IG are damn good shots. The Cadians, who seem to be the standard to which all IG are rated by, are a military society. The population constantly train and handle firearms, and can supposedly field-strip a lasgun by the age of 10. They are extremely well trained and competent soilders, so I would assume that they train rigorously at target practice (seeing as how the ammunition is provided by their sun).

Now, I can see where you would think that 'lasguns suck', as their stats are at the bottom of the barrel in 40k and IG have a hard time hitting anything. But consider the following: A bolter is described as firing self-propelled, armour piercing, high explosive shells in single shot or burst fire. The closest thing I can think of to such a weapon would be something like a Mk 19 grenade launcher firing very high-tech grenades. And the weapons seem to get bigger and badder from there. As for accuracy, figure that most guys with the above average BS are generally super-soldiers, have access to really advanced targeting technology, or both.

That said, give the flashlight a break. It's a tough little bugger that has to compete in a universe filled with super-soldiers, star-gods, and over critical web forums. :biggrin:

Peace and love, yawl! :victory:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah, Yeah, Kevlar, Shit shit shit! Make a Stand! Don't wear it! You might as not wear it for all the protection you get.

There's a reason it's flak armour - made to protect from the worst of shrapnel to a moderate extent.

I think if the entire Imperial Guard could wear Terminator Armour, they would be given it. But as it happens, it costs too much to use it.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

as a guy said earlier kevlar vests and helmets (real life) are designed to stop shrapnal and rebounds, to stop a 7.62 you need ceramic plates in the vest to have a decent chance but only then itll take 3-4 rounds before it cracks.

somebody siad about rounds talking limbs off: a 5.56mm is unlikly to take a limb off will crack a head though. however a 7.62 long from say a pkm or a sniper rifle such as l96 or m24 can do if it hits a joint i.e elbow knee etc, a 50. will rip people in half, at one stage people thought it was a war crime to shoot people with a 50. and were told to aim at the webbing  but in the end depends on the range. gotta love being in the TA!


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Lasguns and flak armor made the imperium what it is today. Keep in mind that the flak armor they use in 40K is most likely going to be made of some plasteel polymer, so it's going to be lightweight.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> Lasguns and flak armor made the imperium what it is today.


You mean a decaying totalitarian theocracy that is rotting away at the inside thanks to incompetent leadership, confining rules seemingly designed to crush the human spirit, and various revolutions insinuated by these previous two things, while at the same time being slowly widdled away from the outside by every horror in the universe and any alien race capable of not getting crushed by the Imperium's xenocidal foreign policy? 

Damn. :shok:


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

amen to that dude! Death to the corpse god on his golden toilet! hes no better than saddam! hahaha


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh come on you guys. That's absurd. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

Steel Rain said:


> Oh come on you guys. That's absurd. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Well said.

Fluff wise, Guard have varying armour qualities. But in game terms, there are six rolls you can have for armour. the best is terminator, and they have a 2. Tau armour is obvo far better than guard flak or carapace, but they get the same save, mainly because because their aren't enough spots on a D6.

Also, guard are dirt cheap, that's why they are so easy to kill. At least guard aren't as unarmoured as orks


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

yeh Kevlar is'nt the best protection we're gonna get in the forces but i'd still rather wear something than nothing not too mention if you shoot a kevlar helmet at the right angle the bullet will bounce off it hell if you threw a brick it would bounce of it i'd feel safer with my helmet on than off


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Talking about body armour. The reasoning behind burst fire mode for assault rifles is to put three bullets on the same spot to break through body armour. Naturally this depends upon what body armour you use but there are effective armours out there.

I wasn't aware the our (the UK) stuff was entirely crap. What was all that fuss in the media about the soldier who had to give up his body armour for then? Given that we don't see all that many deaths it shows yet again that training is far, far more relevant than equipment in any case. Has the UK ever entered a war situation with what could be considered adequate equipment?


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

G_Morgan said:


> Talking about body armour. The reasoning behind burst fire mode for assault rifles is to put three bullets on the same spot to break through body armour. Naturally this depends upon what body armour you use but there are effective armours out there.
> 
> I wasn't aware the our (the UK) stuff was entirely crap. What was all that fuss in the media about the soldier who had to give up his body armour for then? Given that we don't see all that many deaths it shows yet again that training is far, far more relevant than equipment in any case. Has the UK ever entered a war situation with what could be considered adequate equipment?


And yet the military is trained for 2 in the head and one in the chest, so point is moot.
And our body armour is fine. Don't listen to them. Not really. But we haven't lost becuase of it, so we shouldn't complain. ANd so far, for 7 years in Afghanistan, our casualties are actually relativley light.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

2 in the chest 1 in the head. 2 in the head 1 in the chest is much harder to pull off


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You're fighting kick, and compensating for spin, wind, pressure and temperature - no. You aim for the chest, drop them, and incapacitate.

CNN/BBC news reports that 20 Iraqi Combatants have been killed, or said news reports than 20 Iraqi Insurgents were attacked, but 10 were saved thanks to the skills of the surgeons, and tactics of the Men on the ground, it's +Rep UK.

However, guardsmen don't have that worry. They have far too many targets to go for - and there's no kick, so can go for the head all the time. And some have more than one.

Anyways, back to armour, rather than the reasoning behind Burst, Auto, and Single shot weaponry.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> Oh come on you guys. That's absurd. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


My first post outlined (in well written argument, I might add) probably reasons why flak armour is used. My second was to clarify a small point about the flak armour's efficiency against sluggas and shootas, and my last post (admittedly a little off topic) went at great length to defend the beloved lasgun, a close and personal friend of flak armour. I got a total of one small response (which I clarified) and one obscure reference (High-five World Eater XII!). 

Now you get on my back for making a joke, which I might point got some backup from someone who got a laugh out of it (High-five World Eater XII, again!)? 



:laugh:



Vaz said:


> However, guardsmen don't have that worry. They have far too many targets to go for - and there's no kick, so can go for the head all the time. And some have more than one.


Well, one of the first rules of combat for an infantry man is to stay mobile. A stationary target is a dead target. That said, I would assume that while aiming at the head is a good idea (especially when there are all those benefits Vaz pointed out), it is not the easiest target when the creature owning the head is constantly moving around. I think that is one of the reasons why the chest (center of mass) is the best target: it is the largest part of the target and the least mobile part of the body. Besides, when a gaunt is running at a guardsman at full force, the IG probably just wants to shoot the nid. I don't think he cares where, as long as it goes down.

------------------------

Back on topic:
You guys keep saying "kevlar this" and "kevlar that". Who said a flak vest was made of kevlar. Remember that the guard is taken from lots of different world. Feral worlds might give their guardsmen boiled leather armour, armour made from chitinous insect carapace, or chain mail (to name a few). A high tech world might give its guard cool reactive cloth with support plates or something like that. Flak armour is a generic armour type to represent a multitude of armours. And there is no telling what the generic Cadian flak armour is made out of. For all we know, they might use cardboard.

A little off topic, but the "it could be anything with the same game stats" also translates over to the well-loved Lasgun. A IG regiment could be outfitted with repeating crossbows, blackpowder muzzle loaders, WWII era weaponry, laser rifles, coilguns, or something weird like a small dog that spits out a fireball every time they pull its tail.

Also, not all modern body armour is made from kevlar. There are other high tensile-strength fibers out there in use, many of which are replacing kevlar: Zylon, Spectre, Dyneema and Twaron, to name a few.


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

Steel Rain said:


> 2 in the chest 1 in the head. 2 in the head 1 in the chest is much harder to pull off


That's actually what I meant to say....2 chest, 1 head, 2 chest, 1 head, 2 chest, 1 head.............how hard is that so say right *facepalms*


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

Vaz said:


> However, guardsmen don't have that worry. They have far too many targets to go for - and there's no kick, so can go for the head all the time. And some have more than one.


Er, what? Why would there be no kick. Explain this, please, in terms of your firing a thick, powerful beam iof light at the enemy. it leaves the muzzle with a high velocity, so Newtons third law comes into play. There will still be a kick.

And the canon says as much.


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## Rafen (Oct 21, 2008)

Ther are sooo many guardsmen its cheeper to let them all die than give them actual armor


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

1 - they are actually armoured very well. It's just everyone else is armoured better.

2 - are you saying that filthy xenos, witches and traitors can produce anything superior to what Humanity, guided by the Emperor's divine light, can produce? Please report to your nearest =I= approved termination centre.

3 - the Armour of Humanity is its faith in the Emperor, forget that at your peril.

4 - how come you know so much about xenos weapons anyway, huh? Are you or have you ever been a mutant?

5 - because they're not steroid-pumped bio-engineered eunuchs with nothing to do but stand around clad in a small concrete bunker. With clown shoes.

5 - because tyrannids don't have tin-openners (OK, Genestealers do).

6 - because shotguns need someone to kill too (actually, this is only orks).

:not entirely serious cyclops:


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> For all we know, they might use cardboard.
> 
> 
> > The way i roll armour saves would agree with you. Also as Cam pointed out, there is no such thing as generic flak armour, its just a term. Has anyone Gaunts Ghosts? Theres a regiment in there that uses glass for armour (along with other stuff of corse)


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

They aren't. But your comparing a flak jacket to a 8ft suit of power armour. Same with comparing a lasgun to an automatic grenade launcher, and a human soldier to a superhuman killing machine that makes superman look like a grot.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

chrisman 007 said:


> They aren't. But your comparing a flak jacket to a 8ft suit of power armour. Same with comparing a lasgun to an automatic grenade launcher, and a human soldier to a superhuman killing machine that makes superman look like a grot.


Yup. 

Running out into battle with a bad-ass automatic grenade launcher and a suit of advanced battle armour may qualify as courage. However, true courage is running out into the same battlefield carrying a standard issue, mass produced glorified flashlight and wearing armour that is meant to give you a better chance of surviving a hit rather then simply allowing you to shrug it off.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> a small dog that spits out a fireball every time they pull its tail.


If I ever start a guard army, I am equiping them with these.

anyhoo, back on topic, from my understanding of the fluff, Guardsmen are equipped quite well. Its just that when you stack them up against superhuman killing machines, space elfs, giant bugs, demons ect. ect. ect. they become lacking.

on a side note, one can never underestimate the standard issue Steel Balls and Chest Hair every guardsmam is given, thats where the real killing power and armour come from.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Lawkeeper said:


> How come they give guardsmen (well, Cadians) just a flak jacket? Give them a few 'flak pads', like knee pads, elbow and forearm protectors!
> Imagine: an Ork Slugga round races towards you and hits your knee at a slight angle. Of course, your knee gets blown off. But what if you'd worn a flak pad? The bullet will have probably bounced off your knee and you'd be able to merrily fight on!


If we're talking about Cadians specifically you have to remember they live on what amounts to be a Jungle World. We're talking rain forests scouring the grounds, and probably the waters too. It's hot, humid, wet, muddy and all around a campers dream. But then, what camper in his right mind would go into the middle of a rain forest wearing 40+ lbs of gear and an 100+lbs backpack full of extra equipment? 

Cadians were what's best for Cadians; light weight, breathable, camoflauged, comfortable, resistent to their specific elements (water proof, "jungle" proof, etc), not noisy, easy to remove and maintain, etc. The same way every other outfit wear what's best for them. Is it a coincidence that Rough Riders come from a desert world and wear the appropriatte attire? Don't worry about making names for all the different gear, just label them "flak jacket" and call it a day. 

Because I didn't see a reply in regards to Cadians specifically...


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

CamTheApostle said:


> ... blackpowder mussel loaders...


:laugh:

I want one of these. A blunderbuss full of shellfish would certainly be a surprising weapon...

:digging the idea, but also more seriously, completely accepting the point cyclops:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

@Revelations- I'm guessing you're confusing Cadians with Catachans, as Cadia is certainly not anything like a Jungle World, it's a highly militarised world of cold moorlands and sparse, if any, cover worth speaking of.


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

> Er, what? Why would there be no kick. Explain this, please, in terms of your firing a thick, powerful beam iof light at the enemy. it leaves the muzzle with a high velocity, so Newtons third law comes into play. There will still be a kick.


No, because you are shooting electromagnetic radiation (radio waves, visible light, infrared, gamma rays, x-rays, etc.) as opposed to matter. There is no force that needs to be applied because photons do not have mass, and therefore there will be no reaction force.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> @Revelations- I'm guessing you're confusing Cadians with Catachans, as Cadia is certainly not anything like a Jungle World, it's a highly militarised world of cold moorlands and sparse, if any, cover worth speaking of.


Great sweaty donkey b**ls... you're right. OK then... it's because they have nothing better since Chaos took over half of their planet. *Phew*, dodged a bullet on that one.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> Great sweaty donkey b**ls... you're right. OK then... it's because they have nothing better since Chaos took over half of their planet. *Phew*, dodged a bullet on that one.


Well, now Cadia is probably covered with mounds of dead bodies and the burning wrecks of vehicles. So I would guess there is now plenty of cover.



> _Hide behind the mound of dead bards!_


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## Mouse (Jan 28, 2009)

Lol, I love the way you put that Dirge.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

:bewildered emoticon...: I see no Dirge...



Djokovic said:


> No, because you are shooting electromagnetic radiation (radio waves, visible light, infrared, gamma rays, x-rays, etc.) as opposed to matter. There is no force that needs to be applied because photons do not have mass, and therefore there will be no reaction force.


Of course there is. You shoot out light, and darkness flows into your gun. This makes you fall over (Darkness is heavy. This is why people say "night fell").

More seriously (what? The first bit wasn't serious?) there's a really good discussion that you may already have seen about whether or not lasguns have a kick. It's worth reading (I admit I didn't finish it however). I agree that there's no physical reason they should, but I must admit that I like the idea that the sudden superheating of gasses in the muzzle causes a kick.

:electromagnetic cyclops:


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

also, a casualty doesnt necessarily represent a kill, it represents a wound that has incapacitated a soldier or rendered them unable to continue fighting, the flak armor does reduce the number of imperial guard deaths vs fleshwounds. 

flak armor generally protects them from dying then they heal em up when the fighting is over.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Engelus said:


> also, a casualty doesnt necessarily represent a kill, it represents a wound that has incapacitated a soldier or rendered them unable to continue fighting, the flak armor does reduce the number of imperial guard deaths vs fleshwounds.
> 
> flak armor generally protects them from dying then they heal em up when the fighting is over.


An excellent point. However, let me pop that bubble of hope. 

:Viscously attacks the bubble of hope with his Accursed Crozius:

Your argument implies that the guardsmen win the fight and receive medical attention. And as we all know, IG never win games, so they only survive to suffer a fate worse then death upon their capture. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

CamTheApostle said:


> An excellent point. However, let me pop that bubble of hope.
> 
> :Viscously attacks the bubble of hope with his Accursed Crozius:
> 
> Your argument implies that the guardsmen win the fight and receive medical attention. And as we all know, IG never win games, so they only survive to suffer a fate worse then death upon their capture. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


I just beat a Daemon army with massed stormstroopers. Does that count?:laugh:


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## Fumble Tumble (Oct 3, 2008)

because guardsmen are made and bred to fight and die....... space marines are made to fight well and not die


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

cause guard are just there no one cares for them *except their poor moms* and theyre like orks just go and die hoping to kill something to actually be useful


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Chocobuncle said:


> *except their poor moms*


Nope, not even their moms care about them cause guardsmen never return home and mom would most likely not know when or where they did. So when a guardsman goes off to war he's pretty much dead already or at least gone for good.:cray:


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

good point, sucks to be them i think id wanna be a gray knight cause at least your brother marines remember you space marines theyre just like eh who was bob?


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## Mivarlocht (Jan 26, 2009)

Chocobuncle said:


> good point, sucks to be them i think id wanna be a gray knight cause at least your brother marines remember you space marines theyre just like eh who was bob?


Who _was_ Bob? :scratchhead:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Due to past experiences having better armour really sucks. It reduces troop perfomance in the reality type level emencilly. Unless your a space marine i really wouldn't want more armour than perhaps armour that a storm trooper might have. But even then it would be kind of shitty.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Mivarlocht said:


> Who _was_ Bob? :scratchhead:


i thought you knew? o well

and i think the guard does have good armor since they dont have to deal with like special ops which is like what sm are they just fight the average *most of the time* things like rebels aliens like tau or tyranid orks, orks are easy to kill


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Chocobuncle said:


> orks are easy to kill


Yeah, sure they are; its not like they can survive having whole limbs blown off, or half their head. Oh wait, orks can survive things like that; guardsmen have to go through groups of dead orks and make sure they are actually dead, as their ability to heal is actually beyond that of a space marine.


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## Garrowan5th (Jan 21, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Yeah, sure they are; its not like they can survive having whole limbs blown off, or half their head. Oh wait, orks can survive things like that; guardsmen have to go through groups of dead orks and make sure they are actually dead, as their ability to heal is actually beyond that of a space marine.


Not heal. just an inability of their brain to realise that they should currently be flopped over dead in that pile of viscera, not standing over it hurling abuse (and poorly aimed bullets) at Imps.:laugh:

Guardsmen rock! they are the quintessential army - human, not too much more advanced than what we have now, desperately fighting off aliens hordes whilst their elite brethern take the fight to the heart of the enemy. It just so happens no one has any guts to play a REAL army, so they use power armour. Any one out there who plays horde, or tactical armies, I salute you!
Anyone else, no offence intended.:mrgreen:


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