# WHY ALL THE CHEESE?



## warrior-of-hope (Dec 20, 2006)

I been playing games at my local GW and it seems everyone is obsessed with cheese. Anything i use and win with must be cheese and god help you if you want to take more than one of the same thing in your army. I see much cheesier lists everytime i look on the net but If i take something like an example of Fear of the darkness librarian i get ripped into about it by 3 or 4 guys and the redshirts as i play with someone. There not even in the game. The libby walked into battle in a termie squad. it didn't even ds or pod into battle.

Another guy there got the same thing for having 2 wraithlord in his army and that was from a gw staff guy who has 3 wraithlords and no wraithguards in his iyanden army.

so whats with all the cheese guys? why can't i take what i want without all the comments and people saying maybe we shouldn't let him play in the store?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Maybe it's just because you win all the time or something. It's no fun to always lose, after all. I doubt you're being cheesy though. People are just difficult sometimes. :roll: Nature of gamers, I suppose.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Depends on the tone they're taking really.

Sometimes it is no longer reserved for specific power gamer stuff, but used more as a slang term for pretty much anything.
Our group has moved onto calling everything and everyone 'gayers' however politically incorrect that is- :wink:


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

People whine if their opponent has something their army cannot deal with. To them I usually say, "Build a better army list".


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

a couple of times when people thought they couldn't beat my army i have offered to swap and played them using there own army. Most well made armies can cope with any other armies reasonably well


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## Spam-Robot (Dec 21, 2006)

I love cheese, just because everyone at my store loves playing it.

We just have an all out cheese fest, 9 Speeders, 6 DE Warrior squads with 2 Dark Lances etc.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

pathwinder14 said:


> People whine if their opponent has something their army cannot deal with. To them I usually say, "Build a better army list".


Agreed.

Cheese is "in the eye of the beholder." 

One may create a "good army" to win, and so he wins, and other say "thats cheesey" because it has such and such that they think isn't "nice."


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

maby everyone is a sore loser

Edit: yeah 100th post


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## smiley (Dec 31, 2006)

maybe buy a cheesegrater  -:/ however that works


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I would go with attack as the best form of defence.

Keep telling them how cheesy it is over and over until they are sick of it.

It worked for my Biel Tan eldar list with three wraithlords.


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## Frankenskid (Dec 27, 2006)

I tend to be the munchkin in our group in theory, and try to be fair in practice. It also depends on if you know what army you will be facing or not... people that make up a list there at the store are usually more "cheesy" in their composition because they know what they need to take.... I bring my lists in advance, and play them that way as "Take all Comers" lists. If I was playing tau, I may not bring so many LCs, and bring more HBs is a good example.... cheese is definitely in the eye of the beholder, and also in the reason you are making the list for. 
Tourney? NO SUCH THING. 
League.... just a good bit of gouda please. 
Friendly? Let's both have some fun......
I have gottne much better at not being a munchkin, but I still like to bring out my 9 oblit list that I have been playing for the last 3.5 or so years...... I got my chaos codex in spring of '03, and fell in love with 9 oblits till my gaming group wouldn't play that army list.....


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## Phazael (Dec 21, 2006)

No offense, but if you play Fear of the Darkness combined with a bike or Pod, that is pretty much cheese, especially against Tau and IG who have absolutely no chance against it. Its the same thing as a chaos guy who takes a DP of Slaanesh and six minor powers to get Siren so he can walk around and one turn crunch units with no fear of reprisal. There are overpowered tactics all over the place, but select combinations (multiple FOTD combined with Pods) can completely win the game without any help, giving the opponent no chance whatsoever. IN a tourney, this is fair game (but expect Tau and IG players to dock your sportsmanship score), but if you are resorting to this sort of thing for casual games, you might be in the wrong hobby.


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## The Wildonion (Dec 21, 2006)

There is always a way around the cheese, the Siren Prince still has to take a psycher test and Sisters of Battle ignore the Siren power (that that is only one unit type) and FotD does dick to a fearless unit, which is a large amount of chaos forces. While those tricks are nasty they do have some holes in them, though admittedly those are some small flaws compared to the benefits that those powers provide.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Is Fear of the Darkness really that bad? its only got a 12" range after all [taking tigerious though 24"=harsh]. The armies it really punishes are those that take static lists which bunch up and sit there near the back of there deployment, taking very little tactics to use. Tau can take etherals, but very few ever do, whilst IG have some of the best ld outside fearless in the game. You can make all you squads within the leadership bubble LD10 with a re-roll so against the darkness its still above average. 
I do think its a powerful power but not quite on par imo as siren and similar


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

imho FOTD is broken. I realise most people play high leadership armies like chaos and SM (they will always be Ld ten if you've any sense) but against my fluffy tau army they are nasty.

I do take an ethereal but with 8 other units on the table at Ld 8! A well placed librarian should cover around a third of your opponents half of the board.

I'll still play em though, makes the win sweeter!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

To me, cheese is something that comes into play based on the attitude of the player and the place the game is at. At a tourney, there is no such thing as you are there to win, period. In friendly games however, it is cheesy to bring the 9 Oblit/4 pie plate IW army to the table or similar things that you KNOW are going to screw over your opponents. That is cheese because most friendly games are specifically played with lists that are more fluffy or just outright more fun to use. Bringing a powergamer army to that kind of setting is cheese to me, bringing the same list to a tourney is fair play.

Attitude plays a bigger role in it to me though. If you are a cocky jackass standing there with a smirk on your face because you know your multiple FotD droppoding libby army is going utterly destroy my Tau in a couple turns, I won't play you again. Ever. That is not a fun game to me and it is something I would never do myself when playing in the local group. We have a GT winner here in our local group and he plays IW and not one of us can complain that his list is cheesy. He deliberately takes choices that aren't in your typical IW list just because it is more fun and provides both him and his opponent with a more enjoyable game. That is the attitutde more people need in this hobby.


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## The Wildonion (Dec 21, 2006)

jigplums said:


> Is Fear of the Darkness really that bad? its only got a 12" range after all [taking tigerious though 24"=harsh]. The armies it really punishes are those that take static lists which bunch up and sit there near the back of there deployment, taking very little tactics to use. Tau can take etherals, but very few ever do, whilst IG have some of the best ld outside fearless in the game. You can make all you squads within the leadership bubble LD10 with a re-roll so against the darkness its still above average.
> I do think its a powerful power but not quite on par imo as siren and similar


Its nasty because they will arrive via Drop Pod and there are usually a pair of them, thus your LD is lowered, you take two tests, and you don't have anyway to stop them from hitting you. (Though your opponent rolling poorly for reserves can help.)


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## FrozenOrb (Dec 23, 2006)

The Wraithlord said:


> He deliberately takes choices that aren't in your typical IW list just because it is more fun and provides both him and his opponent with a more enjoyable game. That is the attitutde more people need in this hobby.


My regular opponent has never fielded more than the one Wraithlord in his army against me, even though he had 3, and now has 4 because he bought one of the new models.

Our next game on the 14th is going to be 2500 points - a lot more than we usually play and he asked if it were okay if he fielded 2 Wraithlords.

That's why it's good to have him as my regular opponent. I also return the favour by never fielding more than one Predator Annihilator, and have purchased no Tornados because I know I'd want to mass them.

Our wins are basically 50-50 split down the middle and I'm happy to keep it that way.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

> Attitude plays a bigger role in it to me though. If you are a cocky jackass standing there with a smirk on your face because you know your multiple FotD droppoding libby army is going utterly destroy my Tau in a couple turns, I won't play you again. Ever.


Couldn't have put it any better.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

so if you take 2 libbies in one command squad you've spent probably over 400 points to get the opp to make those ld tests. i'm not denying its a good power but i just think is it anyworse than all the stuff other armies can lay down


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## Jake (Dec 23, 2006)

Fotd is not in anyway broken. In taht list (2 cheap as dirt librarians with Fotd), what happens when they play nids? Or any other fearless team? They hae basically wasted 210 points. 

"Cheese," and most claims of "broken" are made by people who are sore losers. if your army can't beat it, its either broken or cheese. i say my army is better thatn yours, its not my fault! I don't do horrible things in friendly games, but in a tourney? If you say cheese in a tourney, you deserve to be shot.

( i was really harsh there.)

*apologizes*


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## Phazael (Dec 21, 2006)

ITs not like the sudden arrival of two force weapon weilding ICs behind their synapse won't cause issues. But the real problem with FOTD is that it is an automatic win against several armies and its not as if the units are useless if the enemy is immune to FOTD either. Basically, if you are Tau or Guard, you may as well pack up your army once the pods land.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Maybe, just maybe- some people go to tournaments to play games of 40k against new people and new armies?
Not to play identical Iron Warriors netlists every game because you must Win At All Costs.

That said, I reserve 'cheese' for a very select few things.

Siren Prince is one- so I need to roll 10 or less on 2 dice to become invisible- I can then stroll forward in front of the enemy and fire out Daemonettes and Mounted Daemonettes without my enemy being able to shoot or assault me to stop this?
Sounds like god-mode to me.

Relying on your opponent to fail a Ld 10 test to even stand a chance in a game, or collecting a completely different army just for one advantage against one model- kind of proves how powerful it can be.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I go to tournaments to play different people. Admittedly, I tend to win, but that's because I don't just make a bum rush with my Marines. Almost everyone with Space Marines just moves forward, throwing tactics to the wind. If you actually play a tactical game with them, though, they're bloody amazing. I've never been accused of being cheesy in a tournament-- in fact, I tend to pick up "best army." Proof that there's more to a tournament than "just winning."


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