# Salvaging Dreadnoughts?



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

It is my understanding that a SM hero can be interred inside a dreadnought if he has become unable to physically sustain himself and if he wishes to continue service. I read that their service can be eternal, however all good things must come to an end, eventually the dreadnought will be destroyed and it will need a new subject. So the adpetus mechanicus happily restores the dreadnought to operating capacity along with a new SM subject. 

Now here are some problems with this, I have been told the technology to manufacture new dreadnoughts has been lost for some time now. 

My question is this; What happens if a dreadnought falls in battle and cannot be salvaged due to heavy losses, its in a dangerous area, or it gets corrupted? And even if it is reattained, what if the damage is so severe that it cannot be repaired? And if the knowledge is lost then why does it seem like they keep making more anyway?


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## Blammer (Nov 17, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> It is my understanding that a SM hero can be interred inside a dreadnought if he has become unable to physically sustain himself and if he wishes to continue service. I read that their service can be eternal, however all good things must come to an end, eventually the dreadnought will be destroyed and it will need a new subject. So the adpetus mechanicus happily restores the dreadnought to operating capacity along with a new SM subject.
> 
> Now here are some problems with this, I have been told the technology to manufacture new dreadnoughts has been lost for some time now.
> 
> My question is this; What happens if a dreadnought falls in battle and cannot be salvaged due to heavy losses, its in a dangerous area, or it gets corrupted? And even if it is reattained, what if the damage is so severe that it cannot be repaired? And if the knowledge is lost then why does it seem like they keep making more anyway?


I don't really know, the same question could easily be asked for Terminator armour. Both terminator armour and dreadnoughts can not be made any more but yet they still have all these dreadnoughts and terminators around.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Terminator armour can be made it's just an incredibly lengthy process so I imagine the loss/build ratio is pretty even.


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## Blammer (Nov 17, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Terminator armour can be made it's just an incredibly lengthy process so I imagine the loss/build ratio is pretty even.


Oh i thought they could not build more. Thank you for explaining this.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

It was my understanding that there were perhaps 15 Dreadnoughts per Chapter (a rough estimate), being that there are 1000 Chapters, it makes 15000 Dreadnoughts doesn't it? Considering the vastness of the Imperium it seems likely. Aswell as with the Terminators, 20-50 suits of armour times 1000 Chapters = alot of Terminators.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I wonder if the Chaos Marines can build their own. I mean, the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors seem to be into building stuff on their respective planets. How else could the 'Bearers field so many Land Raiders all the time? Also, the loyalists not being able to make any sounds stupid, the Emperor could always just fetch a Magos and imprint the necessary info into his brain in seconds. So I think this is just one of the grimdark features that don't make much sense.


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

Some chapters build alot of there own terminator and dreads. I know the Salamnders for exsaple have more termys due the large amount of armours they have in the chapter and i also belive that while process of rebuilding is not out of there grasp its not as good as the original STC designes.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I have never heard of new dreadnoughts being unable to be made. It seems stupid. My interpretations of dreadnoughts is that they are sacred relics to chapters. I know certain chapters like the relictors have very few dreadnoughts but in the majority of cases this is because they are in exile or are classed as traitors. I imagine that they can be made but they take a HUGE amount of time to make in a VERY LARGE forge.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I have never heard of new dreadnoughts being unable to be made. It seems stupid. My interpretations of dreadnoughts is that they are sacred relics to chapters. I know certain chapters like the relictors have very few dreadnoughts but in the majority of cases this is because they are in exile or are classed as traitors. I imagine that they can be made but they take a HUGE amount of time to make in a VERY LARGE forge.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I just glanced at the SM codex and it mentions nothing about them being unable to create more dreadnoughts. Could someone cite a source that says otherwise?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

they can still build titans.... why not dreadnoughts


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> I just glanced at the SM codex and it mentions nothing about them being unable to create more dreadnoughts. Could someone cite a source that says otherwise?


"Dreadnought machines themselves are ancient, the oldest dating back tens of thousands of years to the Age of Strife. Because the art of constructing them has been almost lost, Dreadnoughts are revered as rare machines.2-p131/132"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Dreadnought.

I don't know what it means to be "almost lost." Maybe only a handful of tight lipped people know how?


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> "Dreadnought machines themselves are ancient, the oldest dating back tens of thousands of years to the Age of Strife. Because the art of constructing them has been almost lost, Dreadnoughts are revered as rare machines.2-p131/132"
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Dreadnought.
> 
> I don't know what it means to be "almost lost." Maybe only a handful of tight lipped people know how?


I think this is the case, some chapters still know how but keep it quiet.


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## cheef3 (Aug 8, 2009)

the chapters that know how are probably worried that chaos may get a hold of the info. but i know chaos can make them, i think, so it proves how much chapters trust for one another has broken down since the horus heresy.


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## damnation321 (Jul 18, 2009)

I dont now what people think of this but i dont like that gw makes everything in the imperium "lost technology" and everything is so rare. I mean if they were smart enough they could get the Adeptus Mechanicus to take apart those rare things and figure out how to build them instead of always treasuring the ones they have. But thats just my 2 cents!!!


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

damnation321 said:


> I dont now what people think of this but i dont like that gw makes everything in the imperium "lost technology" and everything is so rare. I mean if they were smart enough they could get the Adeptus Mechanicus to take apart those rare things and figure out how to build them instead of always treasuring the ones they have. But thats just my 2 cents!!!


See the doing that would violate the holy laws of the Adeptus Mechanicus so they cant be ordered to. I cant remember where i read this but creating new things or modifying current things in forbidden in *most cases*. Even doing things that arnt procedure is against there laws and is considered heresy.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Thats it exactly. Adeptus Mechanicus aren't really mechanics, they're religious fanatics who's rituals happen to maintain machinery. They Don't know how the STC's work they just believe in them. They would never dismatle a machine to see how it worked because that would go against the machine spirit. They could build dreadnoughts if they had the STC's to do it but i doubt many people do, hence the almost lost' bit. 

Aramoro


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

It annoys me when they say lost or rare. When the despoiler orders the creation of the defilers.... just like that they build them. though the imperium cant figure out how to build loads of terrmies and dreads.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It's not that they can't figure it out, it's because the Imperium cannot INNOVATE that is the problem.

Pretend that instead of the Bible, you have a manual for making Dreadnoughts.

Now pretend that you live in 16th Century Europe, witch-hunts/religious intolerance etc abound. Anyone contradicting -or improving upon- the "Bible" is burned at the stake/taken by the Inquisition.

Now each Dreadnought is made of, what, about 1000 parts? At a guess? Now the "Bible" says that each part has to be hand-crafted from the purest materials, prayers must be said over them at the casting/forging/molding stage as well as the trimming, finishing and polishing stage, as well as at the fitting and testing stage. Sacred Oils must be rubbed in, paint applied in mystical patterns, incense burnt and prayers read out. Oh, and there are only a handful of places in the entire Galaxy deemed safe enough to conduct this ritual (Mars, Fortress Monastaries, very very few Forge Worlds).

Oh, AND the tools you are using the BUILD the parts (the lathe, sander, computer, hammers, saws, welders, circuit boards, medical equipment) need to have a SIMILAR amount of religious devotion paid to them, and you can see how this is a very laborious process. My speculation is that one mechanic could only take part in building a few dreadnoughts his entire life (20 years of training, 40 years working (10 years per machine?), die at the age of 70-odd).

It's not that they do not know how, it's that they are not allowed to OPTIMISE the construction process by mass-producing them.

Also, what armies people actually play are very misleading. Every Marine player seems to have 1-2 Dreads in his list, when in reality, only about 1 in 100 battles would be fought with a Dreadnought supporting you. It would be even rarer for multiple Dreads to be committed to the same part of the battlefield.


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

In the codex: Space Marines it is said taht most sieges begin with MASS attack of Siege Dreadnoughts ( or assault dreads, or Ironclad, I don't remember the english name, in polish it's just an assault Dreadnought)

So hey... really? And the Ultramarines Second Company has like two dreads for them...


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

hailene said:


> I just glanced at the SM codex and it mentions nothing about them being unable to create more dreadnoughts. Could someone cite a source that says otherwise?


According to lexicanum who took it from "Imperial Armour Volume Two - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition", p131-142



> Dreadnought machines themselves are ancient, the oldest dating back tens of thousands of years to the Age of Strife. Because the art of constructing them has been *almost* lost, Dreadnoughts are revered as rare machines.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh sorry for the post, I missed an entire page with posts with the same thing I wrote. >.<


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## damnation321 (Jul 18, 2009)

I agree with captainloken, they are so uptight with their machine spirit crap, i mean its fine but i dont think the "machine spirit" would get ticked if they were taken apart to better help humnaity in surviving!


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting thoughts so far...

From my knowledge and what I recall and what i think happens

1). Dreadnaughts are incredibly rare things, and as has been stated before its almost impossible to replace them once they are lost. The same is to be said of Land Raiders and TDA (Tactical Dread Armor or Terminator).

2). There is nothing to state that they cannot be made, but it is more than likely the process is rare and also guarded. Their are a multitude of reasons for this, from the myth that has been discussed in the bible annalogy above, but the most important and probably the most striking is that the Adeptus of Mars would NOT allow it, and neither would the high lords. Think what happened last time marines were given control of IG regiments and spaceships enmasse? It allowed a revolt to go forward to a galactic civil war. The control terra is able to maintain over the marines also comes from the fact they would need mars to be able to replace Dreads and Terminator class armor. A self sustaining chapter that could build its own, and why stop there... why not build strike cruisers then capital ships.... is a danger. If mars controls it... then even if somebody goes rebel or revolts they cannot replace losses. Plus logically why wouldnt one or two chapters who are tech freaks just keep pumping out dreads and termie armor. 200 tactical marines in term armor with assualt cannons is a lot more effective than 200 tactical marines with bolters on a lot of battlefields. (codex restrictions aside, there are enough slight deviations to say a chapter would have tried it or done it if they could).

3). If you really want to examine it, you need to look at how a chapter is founded. We are told there are foundings when chapters are produced. Therefore somewhere out there on certain forge worlds there has to be techs which are primarily building this stuff for future foundings. Its a massive project for sure, but it must happen, from the use of gene seed through to getting the equipment together and resources to build it up. Its probably a gradual process of a core of 100-200 marines that expands over time and wargear is then acquired as the chapter increases in strength. I am sure there is probably a set number of land raiders a chapter should have, etc... just like the number of tactical squads etc. 


4). The adeptus will re-issue dreadnoughts, armor, marine armor to a chapter. The Mentors or chapter 888 were the direct replacement for the Star Scorps who had been designated 888 previously. The notes on the Mentors state the Adeptus revisted and reissued the wargear. 

5). It is probable that after a battle or campaign, the adeptus or the chapter itself would scour the battlefield if possible to reclaim anything useable, to put it back into service. Repairing is cheaper than manufacture usually. 

6). Who knows how or what the adeptus do... but i note that marines are equiped with a gland that lets them go into stasis for even thousands of years. Its possible although unlikely that the adeptus has "blank slate" store houses of marines maybe even set up with wargear, that are activated as new chapters when emergencies arise. If i had the resources of the Imperium at my disposal... and was a highlord... that would be my ultimate counterpunch... sleeping chapters ready to awake. Even if it was only 2-3 chapters close to Terra... the affect would stop anything getting close that was a threat to Terra itself. Ie; OMG tendril of a hive fleet going for terra.... activate 3 chapters and send em in... If the Ultramarines can do it with fleet support, 3 full chapters at full strength activated to stop just one foe could do it with the Sol System fleet.

Like all things 40k, I doubt we will ever get more insight into it. The galactic ecnonomy is a shadow to us in so many ways.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

And also what makes me mad a little is that greenskins can build loads of stuff from scratch and the Imperium struggle to do anything.......

:angry:


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

CaptainLoken said:


> And also what makes me mad a little is that greenskins can build loads of stuff from scratch and the Imperium struggle to do anything.......
> 
> :angry:


just remember this though, Orks are the STRONGEST psykers, literally they are all highly powerful in their psyker abilities, BUT they are so stupid they themselves dont even know it. why do you think that a red vehicle for them goes faster? because they will it.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> just remember this though, Orks are the STRONGEST psykers, literally they are all highly powerful in their psyker abilities, BUT they are so stupid they themselves dont even know it. why do you think that a red vehicle for them goes faster? because they will it.


Pretty much. Their guns are basically boxes with bullets put in them, but because the Orks believe that it will fire, it does. Their belief transcends mechanical plausibility.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

When they use the term Impossible to replace it is not that the machine itself is impossible to replace but the marine inside who has thousands of years of experience. Think of the loss of bjorn the fellhanded. He is 10000years old. You could build him a new dread but it is the marine inside who is irreplacable. He is the only guy left in the space wolves who knows where all the secret stashes of beer are.


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> When they use the term Impossible to replace it is not that the machine itself is impossible to replace but the marine inside who has thousands of years of experience. Think of the loss of bjorn the fellhanded. He is 10000years old. You could build him a new dread but it is the marine inside who is irreplacable. He is the only guy left in the space wolves who knows where all the secret stashes of beer are.



So I (or we) have misinterpreted "Dreadnoughts being irreplaceable" this whole time?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The way i see it is dreads can be built. How else would we have all the new ironclads rolling out of the workshops. Like terminator armour they can be built but it can only be done in limited numbers. Possibly even slower than the rate that they are lost. The thing is dread pilots are the longest lived and most experienced marines a chapter has. So yes a new dread is going to be bloody hard to replace but the loss of one is like loosing a chapter master or commander. They are that important to the chapter.


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> The way i see it is dreads can be built. How else would we have all the new ironclads rolling out of the workshops. Like terminator armour they can be built but it can only be done in limited numbers. Possibly even slower than the rate that they are lost. The thing is dread pilots are the longest lived and most experienced marines a chapter has. So yes a new dread is going to be bloody hard to replace but the loss of one is like loosing a chapter master or commander. They are that important to the chapter.


Well shaantitus thank you for enlightening me (us). I can't really believe manufacturing dreadnoughts could be that hard because you simply cant fix them all. +rep


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Look at it this way, they can still build titans....and if you break it down a titan and a dread are just different sizes but the principles of their construction would be similar.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Look at it this way, they can still build titans....and if you break it down a titan and a dread are just different sizes but the principles of their construction would be similar.


But titans are piloted, right? Whereas dreads require a body to make them function. That technology difference alone could permit titan production but disallow dread production.


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Look at it this way, they can still build titans....and if you break it down a titan and a dread are just different sizes but the principles of their construction would be similar.


I should amend my post, what I meant was I believe you that the pilot is invaluable, he can never be replaced. And what I am getting at is its the good pilot that makes a dreadnought. Because of this no two dreadnoughts are ever the same, some are better, some aren't.


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## ThePublic (Apr 8, 2009)

The thing that irritates me (as an older player of the game from the olden times) is that it WASN'T this way in the beginning.

Really. alot of the fluff is just silly now. In an age where there is olny WAR there would be Innovation (an mass production. Originally, there was cross speices adaptation andthe such... where has it all gone....

But I gotta get back to Life(tm)


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

from codex space marines page 65
"Suits of dreadnought armour are amongst the most prized of a chapter's relics. Should a dreadnought fall in battle, his brothers will fight with righteous anger to retrieve the shell so that they may lay its occupant to rest with honour and reclaim the suit to house another dying hero who will become an old one to future generations."

so its a bit confusing because on the same page it also says.

"many an assault commences with a wave of dreadnoughts"

and that part seems to imply theres alot.


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## lomaxxdurang (Jun 24, 2008)

You may see as many as 20-30 in a large chapter with plenty of time and funding.
The dreads are repairable, the only thing that would make them irrepprable is if the life support sarcophagus was destroyed. 
Usually pilots die to the sarcophagus getting punctured and then they bleed out. 
The hole is patched and a new "old one" is placed in stasis.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

ThePublic said:


> The thing that irritates me (as an older player of the game from the olden times) is that it WASN'T this way in the beginning.
> 
> Really. alot of the fluff is just silly now. In an age where there is olny WAR there would be Innovation (an mass production. Originally, there was cross speices adaptation andthe such... where has it all gone....
> 
> But I gotta get back to Life(tm)


Personally, I think it's one of the things that keep WH40K so interesting and unique. Modern "scientists" have fallen so far behind scientifically that their machinery appears as arcane and as religious artifcats that require worship to function; a delightful parody of how real humans smack or plead with broken computers, cars, etc.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> But titans are piloted, right? Whereas dreads require a body to make them function. That technology difference alone could permit titan production but disallow dread production.


Titan princeps get "hooked" up to the titan directly through their brain, they dont drive with levers sticks and wheels etc. When a princeps is too old or badly injured they get stuck in an amniotic tank and drive from that - just like a dreadnought! Apparantly they actually work better with their titan like that!



ThePublic said:


> The thing that irritates me (as an older player of the game from the olden times) is that it WASN'T this way in the beginning.
> 
> Really. alot of the fluff is just silly now. In an age where there is olny WAR there would be Innovation (an mass production. Originally, there was cross speices adaptation andthe such... where has it all gone....
> 
> But I gotta get back to Life(tm)


I remember back when dread pilots could jettison out of their dreadnought bodies 



lomaxxdurang said:


> You may see as many as 20-30 in a large chapter with plenty of time and funding.
> The dreads are repairable, the only thing that would make them irrepprable is if the life support sarcophagus was destroyed.
> Usually pilots die to the sarcophagus getting punctured and then they bleed out.
> The hole is patched and a new "old one" is placed in stasis.


The only number I can recall reading around is that the Spacewolves have over 100 dreads at a time sleeping the fang, I wouldnt be surprised other chapters had decent amounts of them also!

The space wolves codex suggests the reason for their "relative" rarity on the battlefield is that they need a lot of time sleeping between periods of activity. (10 years between wakenings) 

The codex does make it relatively clear that this is how the space wolves dreads spend their time, Its not necesarily the case that all dreadnoughts sleep between use. Its quite possible other chapters keep their dreads awake between battles and so can field decent numbers where a battle demands it.

In one of the rogue trader novells a rogue trader was given a dreadnought body by the admech, so Im pretty certain they are still being made. I suspect its slow production, lots of demand that makes them "hard to requisition".

As whole new chapters can still be made, Im pretty certain they "come fully equipped" with all the kit, including dreads \ termie armour etc. Its probably one of those where the chapter masters roll their eyes when a new ones needed, thinking yeah that'll get here in 30 years...


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