# Dark Elves vs. Lizards. help!



## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

So I have a game agaisnt Lizardmen, his army is basically

Slann, knows all spells, magic res 3, Cupped hands, and the blood statuette
Old blood scimitar of the sun or something
Cold one hide

Scar Vet bsb with warbanner


23 saurus spears

20 saurus

20 saurus
All have Full command

20 Temple guard, with full command and the standard that makes it harder to hit with shooting

1 steggie

1 ancient steggie






So Basically I know what I need to do to win, in _Theory_ But in practice its a little harder. I cant think of much that can break those saurus without heavy losses, and my shooting will barely scratch anything in his army. His Slann will molest my army to an incredible level and with magic res 3 is pretty save from my return attacks. So Basically what can I take to beat Lizards? If not beat at least not get eaten. I dont really want to use special characters, and try to avoid being beardy, maybe its just something im missing...:headbutt:


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

What points level is it?
Go for bolt throwers, for sure, some _large_ blocks of spearmen, for starters.
I'm not entirely sure what the new army limitations in 8th are, but if you give a points value I could probably give some finer pointers.


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

The game will be 2500 points, My list is generally 2x20 spearmen 20 crossbowmen, 10 crossbowmen, 20 corsairs, a hydra and a bolt thrower, and 20 black guard. Led by a dreadlord, supreme sorceress and a BSB


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm thinking you lack Cold One Cav. I think the corsairs are weak versus the Lizards. and 2x20 is worse than 1x40. Replace the Corsairs with Cold one Cav, and consider a 2nd hydra. Also, you're going to have to take his saurus blocks from two sides, kick the heck out of him. That's why I recommend 40 blocks of spears to be stubborn, and cav to flank.


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

Alright so drop the corsairs bring the spears to 40 each, should it just be two units of five for the COKs because more than that would be getting pricey


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Lizardmen have terrible initiative, the lowest in the game at 1 on Core and 4 on Heroes. So, with your Magic users, go Shadow (or Dark) since one of the spells (forgot which) forces all units under template to pass a initiative test or be removed instantly. Meaning you could effectivly, if you are super lucky, remove entire regiments per magic phase. Which is insane. Shame I'm a Lizardmen collector.... I find them stupidly underpowered. Sure they are the only other race apart from Chaos to field a Core with 2 Attacks, is pretty useless if any other race (maybe not dwarfs) wipe out half your units before you get to fight back, seriously reducing your power. So, tactics will be avoiding getting caught up in Sarus Reigment fights and being flanked by Steg's. Next will be reducing the magic power of the Slann. The Slann are arguable the most power magic users in game (Maybe not since Fateweaver has been introduced) and if the guy forks out for more Disiplines of the Ancients, could be even harder to kill it.

I'd recommend using fast, multi-hitting units to try and get through the armor of the Sarus (which is +4 on core and +3 on TG). Lizardmen lack proper shooting, in the sense that, if you miss fire with the best shooting units, you end up killing your own units. Add to that he new Slow to Fire rule on the Howdah Bow... so using your own range units could be useful. Furthermore, I recommend Witch Elves, PA and multi-hits. War Hydra's as mentioned are great and some bolt throwers. Executioners may also be good, as Killing Blow will help against the tougher lizzies (Temple Guard). But thats with my limited knowledge of Dark Elves


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

He has no war machine hunters. No skirmishers or chameleons. You're war machines will be able to tear him apart. Isn't the ring of Hotek a dark elf item? If so, get that ring to the slann as fast as possible. I can tell you for sure that he dreads that ring. I know I don't like the idea of it within 12 inches of my casters. The TG will be the hardes unit to destroy.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Arli said:


> He has no war machine hunters. No skirmishers or chameleons. You're war machines will be able to tear him apart. Isn't the ring of Hotek a dark elf item? If so, get that ring to the slann as fast as possible. I can tell you for sure that he dreads that ring. I know I don't like the idea of it within 12 inches of my casters. The TG will be the hardes unit to destroy.


Sadly however, warmachines are quite weak for Dark Elves. Reaper Bolt-Throwers might be of use against steggies, but that's about it.


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## Sarge1447 (May 11, 2010)

Arli said:


> Isn't the ring of Hotek a dark elf item? If so, get that ring to the slann as fast as possible. I can tell you for sure that he dreads that ring. I know I don't like the idea of it within 12 inches of my casters.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Slanns "hand over" miscasts to other casters, including his enemies? In that case, I think the Slann would welcome something that makes his enemies suffer more miscasts. (of course, I could be completely incorrect)


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Cupped hands of the old ones- 1 use power that moves a miscast to an enemy spellcaster on a 2+. Useful, but not when you roll a 1 (as my local lizzie playing friend keeps doing).


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## Sarge1447 (May 11, 2010)

I guess I'll have to "remind" my Lizzie friend of that rule...
In that case the RoH is a brilliant magic item


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Longish post, I'm a bit bored  Hope this helps you (Helping somebody beat my beloved Lizzies ) 

There is a "Disipline of the Ancient" choice which I am a bit confused about. It says "The Slann becomes Immune to everything except Magical Attacks". Now, that seems a pretty nice disipline choice, coupled with Magical Resistance (+3) the Slann will be hard to kill. Unless the rule means that he is immune to all debuffs... but it does not seem like that (What I wrote is an innacurate description, don't have my army book on hand!). But as pointed out, since he does not have any ranged power really, he is going to really struggle. Lizardmen are so slow, you can wittle them down with range, before finishing them off with weaker, but much faster Infrantry. As I said before, a 5x2 rank of Saurus Warriors may be able to get off 15 attacks, they have to wait till you've rolled, by then you've prob killed one or two, knocking his retalliation down. Besides, I'm sure you could just kite around his core units and finish off his tough ones 

Furthermore, he has no real way of dealing with your spell casters, sure he has a Slann, but if he fails his dispell rolls, you can wreak havoc with Shadow spells. Taking 2 spell casters will 1. Allow you to have another stab at dispelling his Slanns spells and 2. Allows you to pick off units, he can only dispell once, plus a scroll, even if it is a Lv.1 Wizard you use, pouring lots of power dice into a single, powerful spell (Pendulum of Doom is super effective against Lizardmen, look it up) he'll be slaughtered.

Furthermore, I believe he isn't able to wear Hide of the Cold One, the rules state that a Mage can only wear magic armor (and so on) if they already have light armor / heavy armor as default. Since the Slann does not, he cannot wear it. The rules state that the weight of the armour would destroy the concentration to control the Winds of Magic, but magic users with armor already in their default equipment list have become used to the weight and are able to ignore the restriction effects it causes. Such mages are very rare indeed, most Lords/Heroes that are magic users already wear some sort of special armor, thus cannot be given a different one, however I believe mages such the Warriors of Chaos magic users, while they are mages they also wear Chaos Armor (dunno what the stats are) but if they can get magic items worth "X" amount of points, then you can equip them with Chaos Wargear Magic Armor or General warhammer armor. You'll have to double check this with a more veteran player, but thats what I understand. If that is not the case, then a Slann could become nigh invunrable... imagine 200 points on him, Loremaster, Regeneration, Magic Resistance, Invunrable to all but Magical Attacks, plus Heavy Armor  If you ever got a hit through, thats Ward Save + Armor Save + Regen Save + Magic Save all on a single spell (-Regenetation on Fire spells). But that all depends on if I read the rules right.

OK, I went on a bit, I'm in too much pain to sleep... god I hate being ill and bed ridden... 3 years... fun fun. Anyways! Night


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Troublehalf said:


> Longish post, I'm a bit bored  Hope this helps you (Helping somebody beat my beloved Lizzies )
> 
> There is a "Disipline of the Ancient" choice which I am a bit confused about. It says "The Slann becomes Immune to everything except Magical Attacks". Now, that seems a pretty nice disipline choice, coupled with Magical Resistance (+3) the Slann will be hard to kill. Unless the rule means that he is immune to all debuffs... but it does not seem like that (What I wrote is an innacurate description, don't have my army book on hand!). But as pointed out, since he does not have any ranged power really, he is going to really struggle. Lizardmen are so slow, you can wittle them down with range, before finishing them off with weaker, but much faster Infrantry. As I said before, a 5x2 rank of Saurus Warriors may be able to get off 15 attacks, they have to wait till you've rolled, by then you've prob killed one or two, knocking his retalliation down. Besides, I'm sure you could just kite around his core units and finish off his tough ones


I believe it makes him ethereal. If necessary, you could use a dreadlord or master with a magic weapon to finish them off.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

You have several strategies when it comes to using a DE force.

I have been experimenting with the following;

1). As people have said the RBT is no longer a fantastic choice as a war machine for us, however you do have in the same "rare" choice the hydra. Although you may hear screams of beardy... (I don't think it is) Two hydra are capable of doing massive ammounts of damage to your opponent. Especially when your able to set them up to be used as hammer forces against an anvil of spears or even BG.

2). Magic as already mentioned, anything that targets the "I" of your opponent will be difficult for them to overcome if you successfully get a cast. 

3). COK, now are a little more interesting to use. I have not experimented too much with them, but the time of 5 smashing a unit is now over. Your best bet is to use them in 10, but they are pricey.


lastly, the Witch Elf character killer squads and Shades with Assassins still have a place in our lists.

A unit of 6 witch elves 3x2 charging his units at 60 odd points will take out characters if he has placed them in the front rank of a large body of troops. They will die, but for 60 odd points they can cut down characters easily enough with their high I attacks. (This takes some thought, be careful where he has placed his character that you wish to remove and be careful of the rules with models and who can strike, but its a viable tactic)

A group of 7 shades that release an assassin with stars will also make short work of light troops or screens in the opening turns. This really has not changed much since 7th edition to my reckoning. Its expensive, but its doable and can also double as war machine hunters in other games.

As for core choices, I think corsairs have been underated so far for 8th edition with the handbow. If you set yourself up correctly a unit of 20 taking a charge will still get to Stand and Shoot and then deal back a staggering ammount of attacks. DE firepower especially at shorter ranges is nothing to be taken lightly by foes. Even our RXB men with shields are exceptionally good at holding their own now in close combat for their points.

Lastly do consider the Ring of Hotek, but be careful with it, a thought may be to use it on a DP rider and get close to the enemy and then basically sacrafice it in a massive explosion of magical energy. Works well with a level 1, you throw every PD you can and watch it go off in a blaze of glory with the miscast. Works well with fireball, as a default. But could also work well with something nasty in death or shadow if your lucky enough on the dice roll or have a level 4 as well allowing you almost to pick which spell the level 1 will get. If you take the earthing rod you also have a good chance of rerolling the result to something more favorable for the ensuring explosion. The fact she is also on a DP, means that she will suffer a single wound, and you have another 2, keeping her alive. Meaning against certain foes you could repeat it twice more. Your after a 2-4 result or a 5-6 on the miscast table. She can disappear though.... 

(note this is really a rather smash your face in style of play... I would use it once in a friendly game to show certain people they are not untouchable to magic or its affects, but I would not be using it more than once with that person if I still wanted to game with them regularly)

Cauldron of Blood, is another must have item too for 200 points. As it can grant KB on units before they can strike back you can take out those pesky high save units.


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