# Orks vs. Tyranids?



## ckcrawford

I want to know people's opinions on which side is more equiped in winning the never ending war between the Orks and Tyranids? It really is a difficult choice.

In the right corner... we have the Orks. The Bad asses whos numbers are almost limitless. Technology well surpassed or understandable by any other race. tough creatures of hate!

On the left corner however.... we have the tyranids of Lythan.. something. Whose sole purpose is to consume all other living matter in the universe. Could there be hive fleets even bigger? Could the galaxy not yet know what else is comming. The great mystery.


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## Ahala

I think that the tyranids will prob win. Lets be honest here, the Nids are made for this exact purpose to exterminate all life, while as the orks only purpose is to well, make war.
The Tyranids will evolve rapidly just like all other times and become better and better at fighting the orks, while as the orcs, sadly cant evolve nearly as rapidly as the nids. Nids will become better at killing rocs kill them off then continue to attack the rest of the universe, except this time.. theyre as hard as orc.

Just my thoughts on what will happen ^_^


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## Shaun_wi

I also think tyranids, you've got to remember that orcs are just as likely to fight themselves as they are the tyranids.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i think it will remain as a stalemate. the orks' sheer brutality, hate and cunning more than make up for what the tyranids can evolve into methinks. remember the nids are hive mind controlled while the orks have a seperate conscience each, i know there is some kind of advantage in that but i cant really think of one at the moment. plus all they need is a pool of water and some heat and there you go instant ork. they can deal the most damage and take the most out of any race and when they have technology, even if scavenged they still kick ass. i mean who else wields a frigging cleaver and can kill a space marine with it? i suppose they have taken nid hides and claws and the like and made weapons out of them to better combat the nids. who knows, all i know is that whoever comes out on top is going to be hard as hell to get rid of.


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## Revelations

Which ever one gains more victories. 

Kind of a stupid way to put it, but I can't think of a better way. Tyranis can only gain biomass via victory, and Orcs can only insure gestation and growth through victories. If the Tryanid win a conflict, the biomass is stripped and the Orcs have no where to spawn. If the Orcs win, the Tyranids gain no additional resources. If the Tyranid win, they gain additional biomass and evolutionary steps towards anti-Orc goals. If the Orcs win, they become tougher and gain numbers.

The only way one will topple the other over is by gaining more momentum over the other. Sort of like a Sumo match, one needs the leverage to stay inside the ring but at the same time either gain more of a push against the other or trick him to become off balance. Unfortunately, one only thinks about eating while the other only thinks about punching... we're in for a long match.


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## morfangdakka

I'm with Revelations on this one. It is going to be a long meat grinding slugfest between these two. It really will come down to who can keep rolling up victories. Because when the nids win they get more raw resources to make more nids. THe orks win so they gain experience fighting nids plus any orks killed will spawn more orks. Orks will only fight other orks when there is no one else to fight. So as long as the nids are around someone will yell waagh and old grudges will be forgotten and the orks will join together to fight the nids. 

I think the deciding factor will be if the nids can get more victories and keep the raw resources necessary to continue fighting the orks. If the orks keep winning and the nids aren't able to replenish their supply of raw biomass then the orks will slowly grind them down. I think it could go either way because there are also who ork galaxies that have not been explored and larger orks out there than what the imperium has encountered so who knows. 
Nid-ork fights are always close matches where both sides kill a lot of each other.


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## Ahala

Heres an intersting question.
Would all the spores that are fired down onto the planet in the first stages of a nid invasion somehow toxicate the whole planet so that the orcs when newly spawned wont be as 'good' as before?


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## cafel

I'm going to go with 'nids because it seems like they have better numbers for the long grinding slug fest. I mean there are shit loads of orks, but the nid's have the numbers of entire consumed galaxies behind them.


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## ckcrawford

cafel said:


> I'm going to go with 'nids because it seems like they have better numbers for the long grinding slug fest. I mean there are shit loads of orks, but the nid's have the numbers of entire consumed galaxies behind them.


kind of... see They don't know for sure. But there might be. This conflict without the ability to create more tyranids without victories is actually in my opinion more of a disadvantage for the tyranids without as the person who just put that quote just said. If theres not another hive fleet i really wouldn't be worried. Orks have huge numbers. HUGE, and in a funny way... better technology. The fact that the Orks have been invaded has probably united most of the orks together. So i think the Orks might have the advantage.


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## Cabagepatch

*Tyranids*

Tyranids... here's why:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strategic_Collective


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## ckcrawford

Dude that fricken crazy!!!


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## Cabagepatch

it is. (sorry to end this thread so absolutely)


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## ckcrawford

Still though. If a great Ork warlord was powerful enough he could possibly be able to rally all the orks together. hypothetical of course


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## Warboss_Bork

*ahhha no competition*

Well okay here's my well rather funny look on this.Here's my way of looking at it okay so let's just say the nids and the orks are going at it blood,and bullets all of a sudden one of the mekboys says to himself hmmm I wish I had a little pet like these guys then he looks at one of the gretchin slave chains grabs a genestealer by the neck picks him up and ties the chain around it.Then he grabs a weirdboy and tells him "make dis one a good little boy" the weirdboy zzaps the bug with some kind of mind power and suddenly it starts attacking other nids.Ten thousand years later orks are riding termaguants and flyingon winged warriors and warboss now sits atop a winged hive tryant and now pai boys are now giving orks nid army and legs and upgrading acid and other nasty things with there weopons and now long story short the orks made the nids there pets and or slaves and now control the hive mind because they threw a radio in it and now tell it what to do:mrgreen:


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## Micklez

Warboss_Bork said:


> Well okay here's my well rather funny look on this.Here's my way of looking at it okay so let's just say the nids and the orks are going at it blood,and bullets all of a sudden one of the mekboys says to himself hmmm I wish I had a little pet like these guys then he looks at one of the gretchin slave chains grabs a genestealer by the neck picks him up and ties the chain around it.Then he grabs a weirdboy and tells him "make dis one a good little boy" the weirdboy zzaps the bug with some kind of mind power and suddenly it starts attacking other nids.Ten thousand years later orks are riding termaguants and flyingon winged warriors and warboss now sits atop a winged hive tryant and now pai boys are now giving orks nid army and legs and upgrading acid and other nasty things with there weopons and now long story short the orks made the nids there pets and or slaves and now control the hive mind because they threw a radio in it and now tell it what to do:mrgreen:


:shok:....


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## Crimson_fists

Warboss_Bork said:


> Well okay here's my well rather funny look on this.Here's my way of looking at it okay so let's just say the nids and the orks are going at it blood,and bullets all of a sudden one of the mekboys says to himself hmmm I wish I had a little pet like these guys then he looks at one of the gretchin slave chains grabs a genestealer by the neck picks him up and ties the chain around it.Then he grabs a weirdboy and tells him "make dis one a good little boy" the weirdboy zzaps the bug with some kind of mind power and suddenly it starts attacking other nids.Ten thousand years later orks are riding termaguants and flyingon winged warriors and warboss now sits atop a winged hive tryant and now pai boys are now giving orks nid army and legs and upgrading acid and other nasty things with there weopons and now long story short the orks made the nids there pets and or slaves and now control the hive mind because they threw a radio in it and now tell it what to do:mrgreen:


.........By the throne, Emperor save us.....:cray:


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## capnwoodrow

Clearly the orks are going to win because they have Nob Bikers.


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## shas'o7

My opinion on this has always seemed to favor the nids, but I gdon't think it's as definite as some people make it out to be. If the Tyranids win an early huge battle the orks are screwed, but if the Orks get together in large numbers, they will be very hard to take down. I've always wondered if eventually the Hive Mind would give this place up and move to another place that's easier to take down.


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## Wraithian

capnwoodrow said:


> Clearly the orks are going to win because they have Nob Bikers.


Checkmate. *chuckles*


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## Dirge Eterna

I'm going to say Orks, because an Ork prosthetic is just a dead Ork's arm stapled to the stump.

-Dirge


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## revenant13

well remember Ghazghkull nearly wiped out armageddon with just one planet of orks(not even the whole planet). imagine if he rallied two planets of orks armageddon would have been decimated lol. if it did ever come to a huge conflict between orks and nids, i definitely say Thraka and a few planets of orks would roll over the nids.


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## flankman

well since nids eat biomass to make more nids AND evolve they might actualy gain the ability to regrow themselves like the orks do...shroom nids 0.o 

on a side note nob bikers arnt THAT strong vs nids genestealers will eat em up


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## Cabagepatch

flankman said:


> well since nids eat biomass to make more nids AND evolve they might actualy gain the ability to regrow themselves like the orks do...shroom nids 0.o
> 
> on a side note nob bikers arnt THAT strong vs nids genestealers will eat em up



YES!!! FINALLY A POST FROM A NID PLAYER!!!! :good:


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## cafel

flankman said:


> well since nids eat biomass to make more nids AND evolve they might actualy gain the ability to regrow themselves like the orks do...shroom nids 0.o
> 
> on a side note nob bikers arnt THAT strong vs nids genestealers will eat em up


That's not a fair comparison, genestealers eat everything up.


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## flankman

cafel said:


> That's not a fair comparison, genestealers eat everything up.


oh..right well uh.....nids arnt as stinky?

ok heres another thing that would make sense if some how orks can still regrow on a corrupted planet (thanks to the nids) then the nids could probably keep killing them and eat the majority of the spores they leave and let them regrow and eat them again gota love salad farms


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## The Sullen One

Shaun_wi said:


> I also think tyranids, you've got to remember that orcs are just as likely to fight themselves as they are the tyranids.


Even Orks aren't that stupid. What would happen would be simple, a load of gaunts and load of boyz would leg it at each other, wipe each other out. This process would be repeated until the numbers of gaunts and boyz was reduced to the point where both sides could figure out who was leaving the other.

The Hive tyrant would send in the gargoyles to kill the Warboss, only for them to run into a bunch of stormboyz, while Warriors and Carnifexes went against any number of the more elite Orks. The warboss would up the stakes however, and a bunch of Kommandos would pop up and take out the Hive Tyrant. With him dead, some mad bikers would tear up the remaining Tyranids.


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## War$m!7H

nids.

nuff said. =)


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## Cabagepatch

crap... sorry!


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## ckcrawford

actually if you had read the thread from the beginning you would have realized that i was actually talking about a real war going on in the books and such... did you not know that there was actually a great war between the orks and the nids? Read your codex.


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## Phenatix

I believe I've read somewhere that the Hive Fleets are actually just Splinter Fleets of some gigantic Tyranid fleet somewhere in space, but I'm not sure...

So I'll go with Tyranids, sheer numbers.


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## Kendares

well it all really depends who can grow faster orks or nids. which ever can reproduce the fastest will win this war


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## ckcrawford

if we could get our teens to not use condoms, we too could compete in this universal domination. God darn parents!


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## Grimskul25

Personally I think the Orks would win, the fact that they have so many numbers and are so insanely inventive that thy'd find a way to kill 'nids pretty effectively (accidental or not), Nids should move on to another galaxy, hehe it would be prtty funny seeing jedi getting raped by them


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## Shin Sekai

Cabagepatch said:


> Tyranids... here's why:
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strategic_Collective


Made this account for the sole purpose of resurrecting this thread, and saying this:

An older piece of fluff, states that probes, meant to circle the universe (as far as I recall) and sent by Techpriests 14.000 years ago into intergalactic space, are to this day returning mostly Orkish transmissions.


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## ThatOtherGuy

Cabagepatch said:


> Tyranids... here's why:
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Strategic_Collective


How does that support the tyranids ultimate victory? Its been stated many times that orks are the most numerous race in the galaxy, and *all of them love to kill shit*. Remember, the body count of humans that are capable for combat vs the total population is not that amazing. Orks on the other hand, all can fight... meaning that it takes ass rape to a whole new level.


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## CJay

Im putting my money on Orks

Lets not forget that some of the really big hive fleets have been splintered by only a couple chapters of space marines. 

Lets compare. Hive fleet Behemoth was given the big FU by Ultramarines and sent packing, same thing on Ichar IV with Leviathon. Yet Armageddon, had everyone and their grandmother fighting in it, and there are orks still on that planet. 

So when I think about it, a massive Nid invasion would just ignite one of the biggest Waaghs, but the orks would never truly win, since once the major engagements were won, and the nids were diminishing the orks would turn on each other again.

Also lets not forget looted Carnifexs !


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## jfvz

Nids, give hormagaunts toxin sacs and they will destroy your pitiful nob bikers mahahaha, and the nids dont actually need to win an engagement to get biomass. Ild also like to point to a nid fluff story "The Ghorala Swam", where the orks kill almost all of the nid hive ships but a handfull of surviving nids gains enough biomass through hundreds of "defeats" to remake the hive fleet and start consumming entire ork planets again.


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## Mossy Toes

I think nids will win, for various arguments already stated.

Or, as LordLucan would have it, the two will fuse into a New Devourer, more virulent and deadly than either...


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## Darkoan

Mossy Toes said:


> I think nids will win, for various arguments already stated.
> 
> Or, as LordLucan would have it, the two will fuse into a New Devourer, more virulent and deadly than either...



It would have to be nids once they start absorbing all that Orc juice.

The only race that could beat the nids have to be spread galaxy wide for responsiveness, resolute in purpose, pugnacious to endure the onslaught created, and technologically advanced (cos brute force aint gonna do it). 

Progeny of Terra, you are our only hope!


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## Davidicus 40k

Tyranids. After several major engagements, they'd evolve into Tyranorks and completely steamroll whatever Orks remained.


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## Chompy Bits

Davidicus 40k said:


> Tyranorks


:laugh:For some reason I expected someone to try and blend Tyranid and Ork into some ridiculous sounding hybrid name. I was not disappointed.


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## piemelke

My money being on the Orks,
being bred as the ultimate weapon by the Eldar,
being latent psykers that can make any tech they can think of from junk
spores
adaptability
numbers
sheer fun in fighting
big fights are a black hole for fight loving Orks attracting more Orks attracting more, just an exponential effect, adapting their biomass so that it can hardly be used by the nids.


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## Leman-russ

piemelke said:


> My money being on the Orks,
> being bred as the ultimate weapon by the Eldar,


you mean old ones or brain boys:biggrin:


i dont know much depends how shadow of warp counters wagh energy my thought is if they can have reinforcement from other ork then nidis are toasted


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## piemelke

thanks for the correction,
regards
piemelke


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## aboytervigon

for every 1 spacemarine there's is 10 orks ready to bash his head off for every ork there is 1000 tyranids ready to consume the galaxy.


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## Chompy Bits

aboytervigon said:


> for every 1 spacemarine there's is 10 orks ready to bash his head off for every ork there is 1000 tyranids ready to consume the galaxy.


Dude, there are way more than 10 million Orks in the galaxy. Shit, there were probably a couple million at Armageddon alone. Not to mention empires like Charadon where there is an enormous Ork population. Remember, they're suppossed to outnumber humans, and as others have mentioned before, unlike humans virtually every Ork is a warrior.


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## Serpion5

Chompy Bits said:


> , unlike humans virtually every Ork is a warrior.


And every tyranid exists to feed, one way or another.

Bugs are faster, smarter, at least as numerous (probably more) and once the orks spores are consumed, their reproduction cycle is slowed whilst the tyranids will increase.

The war is a stalemate because more orks are migrating to join the fighting. But ultimately, they are only hastening the feeding of the Great Devourer.


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## Chompy Bits

Serpion5 said:


> And every tyranid exists to feed, one way or another.
> 
> Bugs are faster, smarter, at least as numerous (probably more) and once the orks spores are consumed, their reproduction cycle is slowed whilst the tyranids will increase.
> 
> The war is a stalemate because more orks are migrating to join the fighting. But ultimately, they are only hastening the feeding of the Great Devourer.


That goes both ways. If the orks win, more uneaten spores will be able to mature. Not to mention, with each battle the orks win, those who took part are just gonna get bigger and stronger, not to mention the boost in confidence they'll get will probably strengthen their WAAAGH field, making them more powerful. As such, like others have mentioned, the winner is gonna be the first one that can build up some serious momentum as both races a really hard to stop once they're on a roll.

Or alternatively, the nids absorb too many orks and start to fight amongst each other, having not had millions of years to realise that the biggest guy is the boss. Then the regular orks come and steamroll over them.:biggrin:


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## Serpion5

Not. A. Chance.

Nid don`t need to absorb ork spores perse. If the landscape has been stripped of life, the spores will simply die from lack of a nourishing environment to grow in.


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## jfvz

Your forgetting that the nids arn't midless devourors, If a powerful warboss rises up the nids will take it down with lictors, splitting the orks and making them easy prey for the nids. Nids can also take the plants and animals of the planet for biomass, not just the ork corpses.

I think genestealer infestations will also play a large part, they scout out away from the hive fleet and infect heeps of orks, giving those Tyranorks, cept their controlled by the hivemind :biggrin:


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## Chompy Bits

I think it would be quite amusing to see what would happen if a Mad Dok caught a Genestealers and decided to experiment on it. Squig-brain surgery anyone?


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## Harriticus

Chompy Bits said:


> I think it would be quite amusing to see what would happen if a Mad Dok caught a Genestealers and decided to experiment on it. Squig-brain surgery anyone?


I doubt the Genestealer would survive it, Orks really only survive Mad Doks because of the Dok thinks it actually works and the Orks own insane survivability.


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## Chompy Bits

Harriticus said:


> I doubt the Genestealer would survive it, Orks really only survive Mad Doks because of the Dok thinks it actually works and the Orks own insane survivability.


That's one of the reasons why I love Orks. Other than some Nurgle champions, who else can survive having their head chopped off and then stuck on another body?


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## piemelke

The orks will learn they have to remove all biomass in the vicinity and burn the dead,
basically scorched earth technique
nids are overrated,
orks are engineered as the ultimate war machines, they learn fast
they adapt, are strong, hard to kill their population can grow exponentially and they can make about every weapon. If something gives the warbands a common goal which they think is enough fun the nids and everything in the vicinity is doomed


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## Serpion5

piemelke said:


> The orks will learn they have to remove all biomass in the vicinity and burn the dead,
> basically scorched earth technique
> nids are overrated,
> orks *are engineered as the ultimate war machines*, *they learn fast*
> *they adapt, are strong, hard to kill, **their population can grow exponentially and they can make about every weapon. *If something gives the warbands a common goal which they think is enough fun the nids and everything in the vicinity is doomed


You know half of what you said better describes the nids?


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## Chompy Bits

Serpion5 said:


> You know half of what you said better describes the nids?


That's exactly why it's such an interesting match. Two races specifically designed for conquest, albeit what they do afterwards tends to differ.


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## piemelke

how are the nids engineered as the ultimate killing machine ?
and not just evolution


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## Chompy Bits

piemelke said:


> how are the nids engineered as the ultimate killing machine ?
> and not just evolution


Well, there's no real fluff on the nid origin but if you look at them and how they're able to evolve so quickly (something that should take millions of years), their remarkable adaptability plus their singular purpose gives a strong impression that they're genetically engineerd for a specific goal. Well, at least that's how I see it. But like I said, we don't know for sure where they came from so I might be wrong. It just feels to me more likely than them randomly evolving into this all devouring uber swarm.

Edit: Woo hoo. Post 400


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## Serpion5

:goodpost: Yes, Chompy has it. 

Nothing so perfectly adaptable could just be naturally occuring, could it?

That point aside, I was actually referring to the nids engineering themselves. Norn Queens are capable of genetic manipulation on an uncontested level, so the warriors and weapons of the tyranids are perfectly adapted to their role. 

They`ve overcome better technologies than the orks, and their physiology is the most efficient of any life form yet found.

Given time, a tyranid will regenerate most wounds, many are capable of self propagation, and their numbers are practically endless. Unlike the orks, who need some form of ecosystem to draw sustanence, the nids are capable of surviving in any environment.

It`s not a matter of who will win, it`s a matter of _when_ will the nids overcome the orks?


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## Abomination

I would say the Tyranids. They can evolve so much faster than Orks and slowly grind them down. That and the Stark Report.


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## Grimskul25

It's one of the big conundrums of 40K; the Orks are the ultimate survivor whereas the Tyranids are the ultimate...well opposition of survivors. 

The Tyranids in general have the advantage of adaptation to more or less any situation, some having even evolved to survive exterminatus. Orks can adapt as well but not in the extreme manner of 'Nids. So 'Nids win here.

In terms of technology, both have unpredictability on their parts, Orks can use practically anything to kill others and them being able to defy the laws of science as well as make dead killy things out of scrap, but Nid's have bio-morphs that basically do the same thing, in this case it seems like a tie.

Numbers is where it gets interesting as we actually don't know how many Nids there are out there, it is hinted that there can be hundreds more Hive Fleets out in the cosmos waiting or they only have a few Hive Fleets left straggling back from their own galaxy away from presumably something even they can't handle. Orks on the other hand are indefinitely at large in the galaxy, having a presence in the entire Milk Way. This is proven from the Imperial Probe sent out by Adeptus Mechanicus to see the outer regions of space and sadly saw that even beyond their territory Orks are at large. Judging by standing forces since we can't account for how many more Nids are out there, Orks have the advantage of numbers.

I guess overall it depends who gets the jump on who and whether or not all of the Hive Fleets are brought to bear. If the orks go on the offensive as one massive cohesive force, the Nids are going to have one hell of a fight on their hands. Unless the Nids bring all the Hive Fleets they have together rather than by piecemeal it's unlikely they would win. Well at least Gork tod me so.....or was it Mork? :grin:


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## totally_original_name

I would go with Orks. Even in defeat, the survivng Orks would grow stroger and wiser, and eventually those Orks would be leading the Ork warband against the Nids. Plus, Burnas do wonders against Nid infantry, and Power Klaws can pretty much take out anything in the game.


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## Androxine Vortex

totally_original_name said:


> I would go with Orks. Even in defeat, the survivng Orks would grow stroger and wiser, and eventually those Orks would be leading the Ork warband against the Nids. Plus, Burnas do wonders against Nid infantry, and Power Klaws can pretty much take out anything in the game.


Also keep in mind that Tyranids grow stronger as well. When they win a planet, they harvest ALL life from it and use it to grow new and more powerful Tyranids. They are very adaptive and have huge numbers.

I am trying not to be bias on this because I absolutely HATE orks. They suck.


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## BLvice

After dwelling on this topic for a time, I've come to the conclusion that the Orks would undoubtedly win. Keep in mind, unlike many of the recent posters, I have no particular bias towards either of these groups. 

Lets look at the facts: 
1. The Stark Report states that every man, women, and child from the three most populated segmentums would have to be militarized in order to defeat the threat. 

2. The ork population is far greater than the number of humans that would be fielded above and each ork is arguably more capable than its imperial counterpart. (With a few exceptions obviously)

3. There is no way a tyranid assault could target all the ork worlds simultaneously or even in a relatively short time span guaranteeing that the orks would have a constant influx of replacements. This refutes the claim that the tyranids could destroy the ork's ability to reproduce. 

4. That being said, the orks, if we assume the tyranid threat causes a species wide unification, could field untold legions of troops in multiple battles. 

5. On Armageddon roughly a planets worth of orks was involved in the conflict. The number of troops the Imperium fielded was ridiculously large, including multiple space marine legions. If such a vast force of Imperial forces was required to turn back such a force, and yet smaller imperial forces have turned back tyranid invasions, it would be logical to assume that the orks would win multiple battles. 

6. Finally, has anyone thought about what psychic effect such a ridiculously large force of orks, all unified and really pissed off, would have?


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## MEQinc

Chompy Bits said:


> they're able to evolve so quickly (something that should take millions of years), their remarkable adaptability plus their singular purpose gives a strong impression that they're genetically engineerd for a specific goal.


If they were engineered for a specific goal, they wouldn't need to change. Both Orks and Eldar have fixed genomes for a reason.



Serpion5 said:


> Nothing so perfectly adaptable could just be naturally occuring, could it?
> 
> That point aside, I was actually referring to the nids engineering themselves. Norn Queens are capable of genetic manipulation on an uncontested level, so the warriors and weapons of the tyranids are perfectly adapted to their role.


Despite the talk of rapid evolution and a couple of accounts of insane changes there isn't really that much evidence to support the idea of nids being able to evolve to overcome. Look at their overall strategies and units. Their armies are largely composed of the same thing now as they were when they entered our galaxy. They still use the same tactics of throw the little ones at them, then throw the big ones at them. If nids were capable of the type of purpose bred, counter-evolution suggested in this thread there wouldn't be any point in this argument because they would've won by now.



> They`ve overcome better technologies than the orks, and their physiology is the most efficient of any life form yet found.


What races have they overcome? The squats, one planet of dwarf bikers? Name another? Because I can't think of any.



> Given time, a tyranid will regenerate most wounds, many are capable of self propagation, and their numbers are practically endless. Unlike the orks, who need some form of ecosystem to draw sustanence, the nids are capable of surviving in any environment.


Given time an ork can regenerate any wound, all are capable of self-propagation (something the nids are not capable of, they need acid pits and spawning things in the ships) and their numbers are partically endless. Nids also require an ecosystem, they simply bring it with them. Orks also transport their own ecosystem (roks) and are capable of surviving and reproducing in incredibly difficult environments. 



Abomination said:


> I would say the Tyranids. They can evolve so much faster than Orks and slowly grind them down. That and the Stark Report.


Orks have no need for evolution. Why? Because they have already been made the pinnacle of physical fighting ability. The Stark Report is meaningless, all it does is suggest that they're might be more nids out their. So what? We know for a fact that their are more orks out there. 



Androxine Vortex said:


> Also keep in mind that Tyranids grow stronger as well. When they win a planet, they harvest ALL life from it and use it to grow new and more powerful Tyranids. They are very adaptive and have huge numbers.


New Nids, yes. Better nids, debatable. After all Nids and Orks have already fought several times yet there are no tyranorks. 

Give the orks a fight and you get every ork around coming, you get them breeding faster, you get them growing bigger and you get them becoming more organized. Give the nids a fight and you get... exactly the same thing you would get if you gave them a bunch of jungle worlds. That's the difference here: Orks are engineered to be the perfect fighting machine, the stronger the opposition the better the orks become; Nids on the other hand have evolved to be excellent mass-energy-mass converters who also adapt to environments and conditions. 

In short, Chaos wins.


Lotta stuff there, but I've been out of the loop for a bit and points needed to be made.


----------



## BlackGuard

My money is with the Orks. If there is a massive Tyranid Mega-Fleet lurking beyond the boundries of the Imperium, then I feel that the Imperium, anti-xenos it may be, would probably herd and use the Orks as a buffer to lessen the Tyranid numbers. Imagine billions of Orks managing to kill billions of Tyranids before they even come face to face with the Thousand Chapters of Astartes, the Legio Titanicus, the countless Imperial Guard, and the assembled mass of the Imperial Navy.

Not to mention, I feel the Tau would inadvertently help the Imperium as a means to ultimately protect themselves.

Needless to say, it'd be one hell of a book series.


----------



## Ordo epitaphiorum

That would be one hell of plastic and metal, you mean 

My 2 cent: The great powers of the Tyranids besides them being biological superduperweaponry on a lot of legs and with alot of claws are:
-Psychological warfare
Nids can cut off communication between solar systems and the rest of the galaxy, scare people and make them wet their pants with those big claws and everything. Morale is sinking below zero when the Nids attack a human world. But: Orks don't care. No reinforcements? Pfff, who need them. Big claws? Wonderful, I make a pair of necklaces out of them.
-Masses
Wave after wave comes from the sky, grows on the ground or just appear out of nowhere. Almost every human would be scared to death by the sheer masses of a tyranid attack. But the Ork goes and says: Nice! There comes more to mosh!

Heck, the Tyranids are the greatest thread to the Imperium of Man. But not the greatest Thread to Orks.


----------



## aboytervigon

Ordo epitaphiorum said:


> Heck, the Tyranids are the greatest thread to the Imperium of Man. But not the greatest Thread to Orks.


I agree, this is the greatest thread to Orks! JK anyway as I am biased to both army's I would like to say if the Nids win the first battle they win if the Orks win the first 5 battles they win(They need that time to grow there Nobz big enough).


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## Unknown Primarch

id say there is maybe 2 major factors in this fight.

1. being that they both kill each other to a xeno and then it finishes with who can reproduce and regenerate fastest. which would likely be the tyranids as ork reproduction wouldnt involve using any foreign organic life to help to make more forces. so eventually the tyranid biology would dominate the orks and slowly just make tyranids the bigger and stronger force and they would win.

2. the possible fact if they had a strong enough warboss who could unit the whole of the ork race for the biggest scrap da boys have ever had then they might be able to dominate the tyranids. the orks would be so vast in numbers compared to what has ever been seen of a tyranid host that once they got bored and if the warboss was bright enough to know to scorch any world the tyranids were on to actually win the fight once and for all then the orks could win.


but to be honest whoever won out of these 2 would just get owned by the necrons eventually. it really doesnt matter who wins out of any race, the necrons when at full strength will take out everyone else because when they were defeated the last time it was a combined force of all the other races in the galaxy. this time the necrons enemies have already been divided and just need conquering and that doesnt seem like too much a problem to be honest.


----------



## MEQinc

Unknown Primarch said:


> 1. being that they both kill each other to a xeno and then it finishes with who can reproduce and regenerate fastest. which would likely be the tyranids as ork reproduction wouldnt involve using any foreign organic life to help to make more forces. so eventually the tyranid biology would dominate the orks and slowly just make tyranids the bigger and stronger force and they would win.


Nids don't just breed out of nowhere. Its actually a fairly complex system and requires static resources like the hive ships. If the orks can break these, or just break their connection with the planet surface the Nids will struggle to provide new bodies to the fight.



> but to be honest whoever won out of these 2 would just get owned by the necrons eventually. it really doesnt matter who wins out of any race, the necrons when at full strength will take out everyone else because when they were defeated the last time it was a combined force of all the other races in the galaxy. this time the necrons enemies have already been divided and just need conquering and that doesnt seem like too much a problem to be honest.


Necrons were defeated by the Eldar and a few other races. Admittedly the Eldar were far more powerful then than they are now but the Imperium is a new presence (and they are powerful) and the orks are also new and dangerous. The tau, remaining Eldar and chaos (which also didn't exist back then) would all throw a wrench in the works. Necron victory is far from certain.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

MEQinc said:


> Nids don't just breed out of nowhere. Its actually a fairly complex system and requires static resources like the hive ships. If the orks can break these, or just break their connection with the planet surface the Nids will struggle to provide new bodies to the fight.




and who said they did? but if you had millions of dead ork bodies on the battle field then nid source material would be rife and they would be able to make alot of forces from it too. orks dont exactly go round tidying up after themselves or burying their dead so the nids could use their corpses and their own dead to reproduce. hell they could even use the growing ork spores too.





MEQinc said:


> Necrons were defeated by the Eldar and a few other races. Admittedly the Eldar were far more powerful then than they are now but the Imperium is a new presence (and they are powerful) and the orks are also new and dangerous. The tau, remaining Eldar and chaos (which also didn't exist back then) would all throw a wrench in the works. Necron victory is far from certain.


the necrons were only just defeated and the slann were around then and they were probably the most powerful force for the life brigade. the necrons would only have to take a massive force to terra, wipe it out, find every craftworld and wipe them out then turn on tau and maybe have the void dragon take over all their nice battle suit and drones and they fucked. the orks were created to combat the necrons as much as the eldar but it wouldnt take the awakening much to conquer them either eventually. 
and as for chaos, they wont be doing much as the necrons would get their pylon thing up and running and stop any psychic force in the galaxy and then they nigh on invulnerable. necrons are the business and im not even a necron fanboy!


----------



## Serpion5

BLvice said:


> After dwelling on this topic for a time, I've come to the conclusion that the Orks would undoubtedly win. Keep in mind, unlike many of the recent posters, I have no particular bias towards either of these groups.


Bias or not, I`ve considered everything. I have an avid interest and play both armies. Fluff research is as big a part of this hobby as most other aspects (if not more) to me.



BLvice said:


> 1. The Stark Report states that every man, women, and child from the three most populated segmentums would have to be militarized in order to defeat the threat.


_The threat_ being referred to is tyranids in this case, meaning numbers are huge.



BLvice said:


> 2. The ork population is far greater than the number of humans that would be fielded above and each ork is arguably more capable than its imperial counterpart. (With a few exceptions obviously)


If you include civilians, then yes, undoubtedly the orks are more skilled. Do you have a source for the numbers, though? Because I would have thought that if the orks were more numerous, and especially by that margin, then they would have conquered quite a lot of worlds in this region, yet the Imperium maintains a strong presence. Somewhat curious.



BLvice said:


> 3. There is no way a tyranid assault could target all the ork worlds simultaneously or even in a relatively short time span guaranteeing that the orks would have a constant influx of replacements. This refutes the claim that the tyranids could destroy the ork's ability to reproduce.


Reinforcements and reproduction _are not the same thing!_ Once absorbed, those spores are only going to fuel the tyranids! Tyranids can halt the orks` reproductive cycle in this regard, and the conversion of the infested planet`s ecosystem will eventually destroy the ork`s ability to survive there, regardless of how resilient they are.



BLvice said:


> 4. That being said, the orks, if we assume the tyranid threat causes a species wide unification, could field untold legions of troops in multiple battles.


A species wide unification of orks would crush literally anything. This doesnt mean a damn thing. At best, the orks will have reinforcements from a couple of sectors, whilst the tyranids likewise receive extra forces from the various splinter fleets in the area. This is the weakest point you`ve made thus far.



BLvice said:


> 5. On Armageddon roughly a planets worth of orks was involved in the conflict. The number of troops the Imperium fielded was ridiculously large, including multiple space marine legions. If such a vast force of Imperial forces was required to turn back such a force, and yet smaller imperial forces have turned back tyranid invasions, it would be logical to assume that the orks would win multiple battles.


A planet`s worth of orks? Bull... Shit. They had greenskins flocking in from all over the damn sector, constantly! That`s why the number of Imperial forces was so high! They couldn`t afford any less. Even so, the cost of victory was enormous and the Third war for Armageddon is now even bigger, and another draw for the orks, reducing potential migration to Octarius.



BLvice said:


> 6. Finally, has anyone thought about what psychic effect such a ridiculously large force of orks, all unified and really pissed off, would have?


Yeah, it makes gigantic metal ork machines work. Have you thought about what psychic effect the presence of so many tyranids in the area would have? Like suffocating the psychic abilities of other races in the area?

I believe you when you say you`re unbiased. But I would pee my pants if you claimed to be better informed on the topic than me.  No offense mate, just in the debate mindset right now.



MEQinc said:


> If they were engineered for a specific goal, they wouldn't need to change. Both Orks and Eldar have fixed genomes for a reason.


You`ve misunderstood me. I meant they`re engineered for a specific goal on a situational basis. They change to suit the immediate need.



MEQinc said:


> Despite the talk of rapid evolution and a couple of accounts of insane changes there isn't really that much evidence to support the idea of nids being able to evolve to overcome. Look at their overall strategies and units. Their armies are largely composed of the same thing now as they were when they entered our galaxy. They still use the same tactics of throw the little ones at them, then throw the big ones at them. If nids were capable of the type of purpose bred, counter-evolution suggested in this thread there wouldn't be any point in this argument because they would've won by now.


Gamewise, yes. But from a fluff perspective, they have adapted and evolved as often as necessary to overcome the various resistances they`ve faced. If the rules followed suit, 40k wouldn`t be very fun to play would it?



MEQinc said:


> What races have they overcome? The squats, one planet of dwarf bikers? Name another? Because I can't think of any.


Once again you misunderstood. I said better technologies, meaning they`ve beaten forces with superior technology, not races. Eldar and Imperium come to mind...



MEQinc said:


> Given time an ork can regenerate any wound, all are capable of self-propagation (something the nids are not capable of, they need acid pits and spawning things in the ships) and their numbers are partically endless. Nids also require an ecosystem, they simply bring it with them. Orks also transport their own ecosystem (roks) and are capable of surviving and reproducing in incredibly difficult environments.


Actually, various forms of tyranids are capable of propagation. Gaunts lay eggs, Genestealers infest hosts, Larger cratures such as Harridans and Tervigons are able to birth smaller ones such as gaunts and gargoyles, and then there is the dominatrix, a titan sized monstrosity able to birth and command armies.

Also consider that tyranids not only bring their own environment aboard Hive Ships, but they can change existing environments as well. And resilient or not, orks cannot outdo tyranids for biological superiority. _The Ghorala swarm_ story featured in the nid codex demonstrated this, as even a warboss was heavily deteriorated after encountering tyranid toxins. 



MEQinc said:


> Orks have no need for evolution. Why? Because they have already been made the pinnacle of physical fighting ability. The Stark Report is meaningless, all it does is suggest that they're might be more nids out their. So what? We know for a fact that their are more orks out there.


And every ork lost in this fight means more tyranids. 



MEQinc said:


> New Nids, yes. Better nids, debatable. After all Nids and Orks have already fought several times yet there are no tyranorks.


Of course not. Tyannorks are ridiculous fanmade bullshit. The orks are just biomass and provide a few genetic quirks the tyranids are able to take advantage of. Regenerate Biomorph, anyone?



MEQinc said:


> Give the orks a fight and you get every ork around coming, you get them breeding faster, you get them growing bigger and you get them becoming more organized. Give the nids a fight and you get... exactly the same thing you would get if you gave them a bunch of jungle worlds. That's the difference here: Orks are engineered to be the perfect fighting machine, the stronger the opposition the better the orks become; Nids on the other hand have evolved to be excellent mass-energy-mass converters who also adapt to environments and conditions.


I`m not sure what your point is here. Orks enjoy a fight, nids enjoy a feed. Everybody wins, but only one side can survive. I`m not saying the nids will have it easy, I`m just saying all the fluff I am aware of (ie: all of it) seems to indicate that the tyranids are far more likely to win in the long run.



MEQinc said:


> In short, Chaos wins.


Now, you`ve lost me.


----------



## Samu3

The Orks are not a unified force, they simply attack what is in there path without much thought. They dont pick targets (Thraka excluded) and they all think they should be the one giving orders.

The Codex says that it if was not for theses sort's of thing's the Ork's would have conquered the universe a long time ago. This is one of the reasons why the Imperium still stands today.

Personally I dont think we can define a winner as of yet, a lot of people think that the Tyranids will win because they can evolve, Orks were genetically engineered machines created for the sole purpose of war. Orks can be born with the knowledge and basic understandings of how to build machinery, while their practical application leaves something to be desired the point still stands. You cant evolve much further up the tree than that.

 Each side has valid point's and advantages, it may just come down to Sun Tzu's basic principles.


----------



## Rolando

*Biomass factory*

I'd say tyranid... for all of the above mostly.

but erradicate all orks, I doubt.

With Ork survability and reproductive ways, with spores in blood and all that, maybe the tyranid change their nomad ways of consuming a galaxy to reach another, they will have fast growing food in the milky way! all green and healthy!

Each planet conquered will become a factory of biomass with ork blood spilled controlably to grow more orks for biomass, built new fleets and continue the conquest.

Orks will come to the planets for a fight to become more biomass, its a hive fleet dream!

Yes there will be a cost in biomass, but it is reciclable so no waste.

In time the entire galaxy will be a jump point to absorbe more galaxies...

This if there is no interfearing by other forces (chaos, etc)...

what you think?


----------



## linlnil

Orks is made for fightin, an winnin! We'z da Orks, and you iz not!


----------



## MEQinc

Unknown Primarch said:


> and who said they did? but if you had millions of dead ork bodies on the battle field then nid source material would be rife and they would be able to make alot of forces from it too. orks dont exactly go round tidying up after themselves or burying their dead so the nids could use their corpses and their own dead to reproduce. hell they could even use the growing ork spores too.


Your post suggested that all the xenos had been irradicated from the planet, or at least an extended region. In this case (which is what I was responding to regardless of your intent) the Orks have spored and will repopulate the planet/area given sufficient time. The Nids on the other hand have nothing around to collect the biomass or repopulate the area and are thus dependent on further troops being committed solely for that purpose. 

Orks don't tidy up after themselves but they also won't leave a battle group until routed (couldn't burry the dead regardless) or victorious (no nids left to collect the biomass anyway).



> the necrons were only just defeated and the slann were around then and they were probably the most powerful force for the life brigade. the necrons would only have to take a massive force to terra, wipe it out, find every craftworld and wipe them out then turn on tau and maybe have the void dragon take over all their nice battle suit and drones and they fucked. the orks were created to combat the necrons as much as the eldar but it wouldnt take the awakening much to conquer them either eventually.
> and as for chaos, they wont be doing much as the necrons would get their pylon thing up and running and stop any psychic force in the galaxy and then they nigh on invulnerable. necrons are the business and im not even a necron fanboy!


This is pretty much massive speculation and ignores several key points. 
1) Destroying Terra, in addition to being nigh impossible, will not remove the Imperium as a viable threat. Certianly they will have lost a lot of people but the Imperium is notably un-centralized in its leadership and has a very, very strong military presence in numerous other areas (for example the Cadian Gate).
2) The power level of the Old Ones is unknown but it appears that they did not play much of a role in the direct fighting.
3) "Find every craftworld and wipe them out" Yes, of course. Why has no one else thought to do this? Oh right, cause it's brutally hard.
4) If I recall correctly the Krork were created to battle the Enslavers after the major victories against the Necrons had already been won. 
5) "Getting the Pylon thing up and running" is also not a simple process and may not even be possible at this stage. Further the Chaos Gods have shown the ability and interest to completely f*ck everything up when they need to (the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy for example) and would doubtless take a very active interest in this attempt to seperate them from the source of their powers.
6) Most of the C'Tan are dead, others are insane or imprissioned. The Necrons themselves have lost several strongholds over the years and have suffered a definite regression of their mental abilities. In short they are not the same force that proved so threatening before.

Of topic really, but still rant inducing.



Serpion5 said:


> Gamewise, yes. But from a fluff perspective, they have adapted and evolved as often as necessary to overcome the various resistances they`ve faced. If the rules followed suit, 40k wouldn`t be very fun to play would it?


From a fluff perspective as well though. Gaunts are still the baisis of their armies, they still follow the general strategy I outlined, they are still vulnerable to the same sorts of general tactics (kill the leaders, fleet combat, etc). They do adapt but they do not adapt at the rate or the level many people seem to think they do.



> Once again you misunderstood. I said better technologies, meaning they`ve beaten forces with superior technology, not races. Eldar and Imperium come to mind...


You said they'd 'overcome races' which I took to mean 'actually defeated and destroyed the entire race' not 'won some battles against armies of that race', my apologies. However I am not convinced that the Ork tech level is drastically below those of the Imperium, Eldar or even Tau. Nice their tech is not as pretty but it is generally no less functional. Further technology alone doesn't win battles, let alone wars. 



> Actually, various forms of tyranids are capable of propagation. Gaunts lay eggs, Genestealers infest hosts, Larger cratures such as Harridans and Tervigons are able to birth smaller ones such as gaunts and gargoyles, and then there is the dominatrix, a titan sized monstrosity able to birth and command armies.


Hmm, I wasn't aware of those (especially the gaunts and eggs thing, where is that from?). It doesn't really change my point however. Every single Ork is capable of creating countless spores and numerous offspring, who will be ready (if not equiped) to fight mere moments after birth. Tyranids are still limited to a few sources for their reproduction and many of those sources are easily identifiable.



> And every ork lost in this fight means more tyranids.


And every ork victory denies the Tyranids the opportunity to recollect the expended biomass, let alone new material. 



> I`m not sure what your point is here. Orks enjoy a fight, nids enjoy a feed. Everybody wins, but only one side can survive. I`m not saying the nids will have it easy, I`m just saying all the fluff I am aware of (ie: all of it) seems to indicate that the tyranids are far more likely to win in the long run.


My point was that people were claiming that 'Tyranids were the ultimate biological weapon' but this is not the case. They are not optimized for combat, but feeding/growing. Yes, they are good at fighting. No, they are not biological weapons.



> Now, you`ve lost me.


Then my work here is done :biggrin:. But seriously I just meant that as long as everybody keeps figthing and nobody wins, then Chaos just keeps rollin like it do.


----------



## stalarious

Ok if you put both armies in their "perfect" conditions for maximum power for them. It would become a stalemate because nids need BIOMASS to reproduce were as Orks need a that can sustain plant life to reproduce so this is a stalemate. 

Now not being a ork player I gotta say are they good in combat yes point taken.
Nids also good in combat that also has to be admited.

Nids will evolve to win the hive mind learns from defeat and then evolves a tool to take on the new threat so eventually nids WILL start to kill orks more effectively this cant be stopped win, lose dont matter.

Now in the orks defense the spores they realase will have the genetic memories of the previous ork so the next generation will be a little tougher,little bigger and stronger and be able to fight back more effectively. So to end this if the enviornment is able to sustain plant life and has the resources needed then its a stalemate of both sides adapting to overcome the other.

But I really wanna say that the nids win (because they are one of my armies)but they are too much alike to say that.


----------



## MEQinc

stalarious said:


> Nids will evolve to win the hive mind learns from defeat and then evolves a tool to take on the new threat so eventually nids WILL start to kill orks more effectively this cant be stopped win, lose dont matter.


I am curious as to how people think the Nids will adapt to overcome the Orks? 
They could try getting bigger, but the Orks can compete there.
They could try getting more numerous, but the Orks can compete there as well.
So, thoughts?


----------



## stalarious

well they can get faster adrenal glands come to mind or start to get camoflauge to hide and ambush. thats two quick thoughts


----------



## the_man_with_plan

I would guess that the 'nids will win for the same reason that the allies won ww2. they are based far away where the enemy can't touch their means of production. in this case, there is no chance in hell thaat the orks could get to the next galaxy.


----------



## CattleBruiser

I say the orks would win cause they got burnaz, power klaws, and Ork and his Eyebot (who of course will call on Capt. Slaughter's reject marines, Bob's greyhunters, and Shaz to help them)


----------



## JAMOB

Tyranorks...
Terranorks...
Starcraft conspiracy?

Anyway, i skipped a couple big posts at the end because I didnt feel like reading them, so now for my points.

1. It has been stated numerous times that if orks united together they could easily take over the entire galaxy. No one else can possibly take them (check codex: orks)

2. Forget who said this, but burning ork bodies would stop their regeneration, not just nid's

3. yeah... no bias but i think nids would win (assuming that they really do number in the trillions or whatever and so far its only tendrils) otherwise orks would...


----------



## Serpion5

Several key points have been ignored or overlooked, and others need to be corrected. 


Myth: The orks can reproduce infinitely due to their use of spores. 

Fact: Spores still need a foundation, nourishment and time to grow. Ork worlds consumed by tyranids will NOT simply regrow their populations. Tyranids leave no biomass, atmosphere or ocean to support this growth. Even if a few residual spores were left behind, they cannot simply grow from nothing. 


Myth: Orks united could annihilate any other threat in the galaxy. 

Fact: Aside from the fact that this _probably_ won`t happen, keep in mind that there are more armies than one in opposition. Orks suddenly on the rampage is seldom ignored for long, and every enemy race in their path would fight back, not just one.


Myth: Tyranids need constant leadership. 

Fact: Tyranid instincts are designed to give the creature autonomous survivability. Termagants will seek out hidden lairs and become oppurtunistic hunters, increasing their numbers over time. Genestealers can subvert entire populations given a few generations. Lone tyranid creatures (eg: Old One Eye, the Red Terror, Deathleaper) can have a tremendous impact simply by acting as their instincts dictate. Old One Eye alone has been a recurring nemesis to the realm of Ultramar. 


Myth: A third faction can steal victory.

Fact: Possibly. Chaos or necrons be the most likely candidates imo, but personally I doubt either lone race will make a difference, and neither of them are exactly fond of alliances.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Orks can be deceived or reasoned with at times.

The Tryanids cannot.


----------



## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> Orks can be deceived or reasoned with at times.
> 
> The Tryanids cannot.


Also true. 


And something I forgot, protracted combats will also work in the tyranid`s favour. In the end, the biosphere is changed permanently, so even if the orks somehow drive the tyranids back, the bugs presence remains permanent. This is a similar situation that many other races have with orks. 

So once the nids have a foothold, they only go forward.


----------



## MEQinc

Serpion5 said:


> And something I forgot, protracted combats will also work in the tyranid`s favour. In the end, the biosphere is changed permanently, so even if the orks somehow drive the tyranids back, the bugs presence remains permanent. This is a similar situation that many other races have with orks.


Altering the biosphere is a far cry from victory. Should Orks manage to kick all (or most) of a tyranid attack off the planet the altered biosphere is going to little more than make the remaining orks tougher. 



> So once the nids have a foothold, they only go forward.


That's simply not true. There are numerous cases of Tyranid forces making planetfall, gaining a foothold and then being completely removed from the planet. Tyranids are not an unstoppable machine once they get going, they can still be shattered with a sufficient blow; nor are they impossible to erradicate, no more so than the orks.


----------



## CyanideTaco

*Tyranids*

In my opinion, the Tyranids would kill the Orks over time. Yes, the Orks will fight like hell, but for the following reasons the nids would win:

They function with no individual thinking. There have been no recorded events where the Tyranids literally packed up and left, only set backs. You kill the orbiting hive fleet, the ground forces disperse and hide. Be it days or years, they will reproduce and fight back without the presence of the fleet.

The Tyranids attack patterns are simple. The Tyranids will not send the same amount of troops to a civilian planet as they would a chaos stronghold. They asses the attack area or fleet, such as size, weapons, ships and so on. Once they figure that out, they react accordingly. So say the Orks band together, say every single one of them fight in one massive Waaaaghh!! The Tyranids would see that as a massive threat and would most likely swarm to that location, massing all hive fleets for one massive feeding frenzy.

As for Tyranid-Ork hybrids, it will happen, but not how you think. The Tyranids would consume Orks and achieve the attributes of the Orks. The Tyranids also make new creatures depending on the foe, so this massive conflict would give rise to new Tyranids designed to slaughter Orks. 

There us however a third faction that ends this conflict. The legions of Chaos are destined to fight the Tyranids for all eternity. Think about it, all the legions of chaos (or Khorne for that matter) want is for blood to be spilled. "If the blood flows, the gods are pleased, regardless from where it flow." (Khorne Beserkers, Chaos 4th edition codex.) All the Tyranids want is food, so the two have what they need in each other, their numbers are close to infinite, so is their war.


----------



## Serpion5

CyanideTaco said:


> In my opinion, the Tyranids would kill the Orks over time. Yes, the Orks will fight like hell, but for the following reasons the nids would win:
> 
> They function with no individual thinking. There have been no recorded events where the Tyranids literally packed up and left, only set backs. You kill the orbiting hive fleet, the ground forces disperse and hide. Be it days or years, they will reproduce and fight back without the presence of the fleet.
> 
> The Tyranids attack patterns are simple. The Tyranids will not send the same amount of troops to a civilian planet as they would a chaos stronghold. They asses the attack area or fleet, such as size, weapons, ships and so on. Once they figure that out, they react accordingly. So say the Orks band together, say every single one of them fight in one massive Waaaaghh!! The Tyranids would see that as a massive threat and would most likely swarm to that location, massing all hive fleets for one massive feeding frenzy.
> 
> As for Tyranid-Ork hybrids, it will happen, but not how you think. The Tyranids would consume Orks and achieve the attributes of the Orks. The Tyranids also make new creatures depending on the foe, so this massive conflict would give rise to new Tyranids designed to slaughter Orks.
> 
> There us however a third faction that ends this conflict. The legions of Chaos are destined to fight the Tyranids for all eternity. Think about it, all the legions of chaos (or Khorne for that matter) want is for blood to be spilled. "If the blood flows, the gods are pleased, regardless from where it flow." (Khorne Beserkers, Chaos 4th edition codex.) All the Tyranids want is food, so the two have what they need in each other, their numbers are close to infinite, so is their war.


You`ve completely disregarded several key factions here. The Imperium of Man, while dying, still has the potential to leave a hell of a dent in its death throes. The Eldar have access to a hefty arsenal themselves despite their limited influence. 

And we still have only a vague idea what the necrons are yet capable of. 



> Altering the biosphere is a far cry from victory. Should Orks manage to kick all (or most) of a tyranid attack off the planet the altered biosphere is going to little more than make the remaining orks tougher.


Toughened orks does little for their cause if they`re harboring genestealer implants. 



> That's simply not true. There are numerous cases of Tyranid forces making planetfall, gaining a foothold and then being completely removed from the planet. Tyranids are not an unstoppable machine once they get going, they can still be shattered with a sufficient blow; nor are they impossible to erradicate, no more so than the orks.


I meant in the context of fighting the orks. I am well aware of the Imperium and tau`s success, but the orks do not use the same finesse as these factions and I am not aware of them successfully reclaiming lost territories. If you know any sources that state otherwise, let me know and I will admit to being wrong. 

Meq, sorry for not noticing your post sooner.


----------



## Uveron

Is the Battle stays on the ground... Nids win. 

If the Orks look to Mork they will take to the stars. Fleet to Fleet Battles start to favor the Orks, massive damage to the hive fleet itself will slow the fleet down. Add a few victorys and you have a Mek boy who knows how to make his killacruzers really smash bugs...


----------



## Lelldorin84

MEQinc said:


> Orks are engineered to be the perfect fighting machine, the stronger the opposition the better the orks become; Nids on the other hand have evolved to be excellent mass-energy-mass converters who also adapt to environments and conditions.


What?
Orks are unfinished creations of a dead race. Nids didn't evolve to be anything they are each created to do a specific task so if anything the nids are the perfect fighting machines.

Orks would lose why? Because the approaching tyranid fleet would block the waagh! energy from leaving the planet (shadow in the warp) then they would decend to the surface as they always do and start destroying all life. Even if the fight drew in more orks they would have to be able to run the blockage of thousands of tyranid ships around the planet or miraculously all show up at the same time. Small fleets of ork ships would show up and be destroyed before even making planetfall.

Yes the orks are great fighters but the fact remains that they need time to reproduce through spores. A Nob becomes a Nob by winning fights, a Carnifex is created as a carnifex. 

Nids show up with an army and attack enmass, spore towers rise into the sky pumping micro organisms into the air that start to digest all biomass (ORKS!!) on a cellular level, therefore all those dead orks and all those ork spores would be digested by either microbes or ripper swarms, unless orks guard the dead. Even dead nids are recycled to make more nids. All plant life would die off including the fungus that orks eat. Cellular decay and starvation would take its toll. The tyranids have been perfecting the art of stripping planets of life for who knows how long. Sure orks can fight but they are not organized or of the same singlemindedness that tyranids are.

Tyranids could have whiped out multiple GALAXIES for all we know and orks haven't even attempted to take over one, all they are looking for is a fight.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Lelldorin84 said:


> What?
> Orks are unfinished creations of a dead race.


A prominent Eldar psyker, a race many deem to be perfect, considered the Orks to being a perfect race.



Lelldorin84 said:


> Nids didn't evolve to be anything they are each created to do a specific task so if anything the nids are the perfect fighting machines.


The Tyranids evolved a billion times to become what they are. The Hive Mind has a million different templates to morph its soldiers into. So I don't know what exactly you were trying to say. 



Lelldorin84 said:


> Orks would lose why? Because the approaching tyranid fleet would block the waagh! energy from leaving the planet (shadow in the warp) then they would decend to the surface as they always do and start destroying all life.


The WAAGHH! providing a psychic energy field is simply an added bonus. The WAAGHH! fuels the Orks in a physical, motivational way mostly. An Ork seeing a million of his brothers roaring at the sky is going to get pumped, no questions about it. And the Shadow in the Warp blocks psychic communications not necessarily all forms of psychic energy on a planet.



Lelldorin84 said:


> Even if the fight drew in more orks they would have to be able to run the blockage of thousands of tyranid ships around the planet or miraculously all show up at the same time. Small fleets of ork ships would show up and be destroyed before even making planetfall.


Orks generally arrive via giant Roks/asteroids as opposed to individual ships. And the Orks are perhaps almost as numerous as the Tyranids or at least their splinter groups.



Lelldorin84 said:


> Yes the orks are great fighters but the fact remains that they need time to reproduce through spores. A Nob becomes a Nob by winning fights, a Carnifex is created as a carnifex.


A Carnifex takes time and resources to materialize as well. Otherwise, all the ground troops of a Tyranid force would become Carnifex's. And each Ork is extremely strong, they don't need to be Nobs to crack some skulls.



Lelldorin84 said:


> Nids show up with an army and attack enmass


Just like Orks do.



Lelldorin84 said:


> spore towers rise into the sky pumping micro organisms into the air that start to digest all biomass (ORKS!!) on a cellular level


Assuming the Orks and their massive numbers let said towers be built/land.



Lelldorin84 said:


> therefore all those dead orks and all those ork spores would be digested by either microbes or ripper swarms, unless orks guard the dead. Even dead nids are recycled to make more nids.


Each dead Ork provides the chance for more Orks to spawn. 



Lelldorin84 said:


> All plant life would die off including the fungus that orks eat.


Each dead Ork potentially provides food for the rest depending on circumstance. 



Lelldorin84 said:


> Tyranids could have whiped out multiple GALAXIES for all we know and orks haven't even attempted to take over one, all they are looking for is a fight.


The Orks have been noted to be rampant in other galaxies as the probes sent out from mankind during the Dark Age of Technology have discovered.

In closing, holy shit you're biased lol.


----------



## CattleBruiser

I actually think that the Orks would win. Since the Orks and Tyranids both have lots of guys it'll turn into a war of attrition, and, as people have said, both sides can re-populate very fast, but orks have burnas, looted wagons, grotzookas, and just generally a hell of a lot more dakka


----------



## Chompy Bits

Malus Darkblade said:


> A prominent Eldar psyker, a race many deem to be perfect, considered the Orks to being a perfect race.
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyranids evolved a billion times to become what they are. The Hive Mind has a million different templates to morph its soldiers into. So I don't know what exactly you were trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> The WAAGHH! providing a psychic energy field is simply an added bonus. The WAAGHH! fuels the Orks in a physical, motivational way mostly. An Ork seeing a million of his brothers roaring at the sky is going to get pumped, no questions about it. And the Shadow in the Warp blocks psychic communications not necessarily all forms of psychic energy on a planet.
> 
> 
> 
> Orks generally arrive via giant Roks/asteroids as opposed to individual ships. And the Orks are perhaps almost as numerous as the Tyranids or at least their splinter groups.
> 
> 
> 
> A Carnifex takes time and resources to materialize as well. Otherwise, all the ground troops of a Tyranid force would become Carnifex's. And each Ork is extremely strong, they don't need to be Nobs to crack some skulls.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like Orks do.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming the Orks and their massive numbers let said towers be built/land.
> 
> 
> 
> Each dead Ork provides the chance for more Orks to spawn.
> 
> 
> 
> Each dead Ork potentially provides food for the rest depending on circumstance.
> 
> 
> 
> The Orks have been noted to be rampant in other galaxies as the probes sent out from mankind during the Dark Age of Technology have discovered.
> 
> In closing, holy shit you're biased lol.


Pretty much all this.

@Lelldorin84: Please don't tell me you think Orks are vegetarians and only eat fungus. Orks eat pretty much anything, including other Orks occasionally, like Malus said.


----------



## wingazzwarlord

For me its the orks and heres why, In wars throughout history a major fator in victory is the particular forces combat service support i.e there supply and admin chain.

On one hand you have the nids who are an all consuming bohemoth of taloned destruction, which is fine but to continue to survive they must keep winning or they are not going to eat and therefore not going to be able to move onto there next objective.

On the other hand you have the orks who are completly self sufficient, they produce there own food ammunition and weapons, they can breed in most environments and are pratically impossible to kill. I feel that eventually the orks would grind down the nids especially if word spread far enough that a good scrap was going on


----------



## jaysen

I'd love to have had an ork warboss back in the gladiator arenas of ancient Rome.


----------



## kwak76

I want the orks to win but on paper I think the tyranids will. The tyranids already consume number of planets in the Octarius sector. I think the main planet is still standing which is Octarius where orks and the tyranids are still battling it out. 

I don't think the orks race will every die out. But I see the tyranids winning this one and than turning their attention to the imperium.


----------



## Lelldorin84

> A prominent Eldar psyker, a race many deem to be perfect, considered the Orks to being a perfect race.


And the Eldar are Perfect and can therefore judge perfection?? The very race that was destroyed by its hubris is a reliable judge of perfection?




> The Tyranids evolved a billion times to become what they are. The Hive Mind has a million different templates to morph its soldiers into. So I don't know what exactly you were trying to say.


The tyranids may have evolved at one point just like man evolved, but at this point they are engineered just as Space Marines are engineered. Maybe I didn't explain it properly Tyranids are guided by a hivemind that alters their genetic make up to suit its purposes.




> The WAAGHH! providing a psychic energy field is simply an added bonus. The WAAGHH! fuels the Orks in a physical, motivational way mostly. An Ork seeing a million of his brothers roaring at the sky is going to get pumped, no questions about it. And the Shadow in the Warp blocks psychic communications not necessarily all forms of psychic energy on a planet.


I meant it blocking the WAAGHH! attracting more orks from off world.




> Orks generally arrive via giant Roks/asteroids as opposed to individual ships. And the Orks are perhaps almost as numerous as the Tyranids or at least their splinter groups.


Sure they are numerous but are they all organized into one fleet to strike at the tyranid ships?




> A Carnifex takes time and resources to materialize as well. Otherwise, all the ground troops of a Tyranid force would become Carnifex's. And each Ork is extremely strong, they don't need to be Nobs to crack some skulls.


I understand that but that was not the point. A carnifex takes time to create yes,but an orc grows from a spore and has to win battles to become bigger and stronger to become a Nob. An army of just boyz could not destroy an army of full tyranid units.




> Assuming the Orks and their massive numbers let said towers be built/land.


The towers grow out of the ground using the planet's biomass, there aren't little builder tyranids with hammers and tool belts. Plus the Orks would be busy having a blast fighting everything else the tyranids through at them.




> Each dead Ork provides the chance for more Orks to spawn.


Ok, but not if the body is eaten by ripper swarms or digested in a digestion pit.




> Each dead Ork potentially provides food for the rest depending on circumstance.


Ok, but not if the body is eaten by ripper swarms or digested in a digestion pit.




> The Orks have been noted to be rampant in other galaxies as the probes sent out from mankind during the Dark Age of Technology have discovered.


Tyranids don't use Vox or radios so the fact that another numerous race does use them proves nothing for number comparison.



> In closing, holy shit you're biased lol.


Holy shit, you're not? 
Imagine that.....bias in a disscusion based on opinion of fluff material......


----------



## MEQinc

Lelldorin84 said:


> What?
> Orks are unfinished creations of a dead race. Nids didn't evolve to be anything they are each created to do a specific task so if anything the nids are the perfect fighting machines.


I was speaking on the racial level. Orks were designed as, and served perfectly as, a weapon to defeat the Necrons and the Enslavers. They were designed from the cellular level, as a race, to fight. Tyranids, as a race, have evolved to be the biomass machine that they are.



> Because the approaching tyranid fleet would block the waagh! energy from leaving the planet (shadow in the warp)


How do you know this will happen? The Shadow has been by-passed by human psykers in the past. Further Ravenor shows that a powerful enough psykic force can burn through a psykic null. It is possible (though I think unlikely) that a sufficently numerous and pumped up Ork force could generate enough Waagh energy to shatter the Shadow and thus f-over the hive mind.



> Yes the orks are great fighters but the fact remains that they need time to reproduce through spores.


Of course, how silly of me to forget the Nids insta-spawn capabilites. Nids are grown. Accelerated, definetely but so are Orks.



> A Nob becomes a Nob by winning fights, a Carnifex is created as a carnifex.


An Ork becomes stronger, smarter and more capable with every victory. A Carnifex is born with all the knowledge it will ever have. Orks can learn to defeat a Carnifex and go on to do it repeatedly. If a Carnifex is not born with the knowledge of how to kill an Ork it will never gain it.



> Nids show up with an army and attack enmass, spore towers rise into the sky pumping micro organisms into the air that start to digest all biomass (ORKS!!) on a cellular level, therefore all those dead orks and all those ork spores would be digested by either microbes or ripper swarms, unless orks guard the dead. Even dead nids are recycled to make more nids. All plant life would die off including the fungus that orks eat. Cellular decay and starvation would take its toll. The tyranids have been perfecting the art of stripping planets of life for who knows how long. Sure orks can fight but they are not organized or of the same singlemindedness that tyranids are.


It has been shown that this does not happen with every single world Tyranids attack. Further, these processes take time and rely on the invandees not attempting to stop it. Burnaz seem like the perfect weapon for erradicating the swarm.



> Tyranids could have whiped out multiple GALAXIES for all we know and orks haven't even attempted to take over one, all they are looking for is a fight.


Tyrands may or may not have devoured multiple galaxies, so what? It is clear that tey are struggling to make progress in this galaxy. 

The Orks were not designed to conquor, indeed it appears they were actively designed not to. That they are numerous enough that they could unquestionably conquer is all that is important.



Lelldorin84 said:


> Maybe I didn't explain it properly Tyranids are guided by a hivemind that alters their genetic make up to suit its purposes.


Orks are also altered in this manner, however they are also capable of self-alteration, of adaptation on the battlefield. 



> Sure they are numerous but are they all organized into one fleet to strike at the tyranid ships?


Orks are capable of organization. There is no reason why they would not be able to make a co-ordinated strike against a Tyranid fleet. Further, the fleets tend to be scattered and docile. The Tyranids are not as organized as many people seem to think they are. 



> An army of just boyz could not destroy an army of full tyranid units.


Sure, just as an army of termagaunts couldn't defeat an army of full Ork units. What's your point?



> The towers grow out of the ground using the planet's biomass, there aren't little builder tyranids with hammers and tool belts. Plus the Orks would be busy having a blast fighting everything else the tyranids through at them.


The towers can and have been erradicated or prevented from growing. That the Orks don't consider the Tyranids a serious enough threat to bother erradicating them completely speaks to how little they care.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Orks, for all the reasons listed. This rampant nid fanboyism is hurting my brain.


----------



## harlokin

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Orks, for all the reasons listed. This rampant nid fanboyism is hurting my brain.


Agree 100%.

No way those pesky bugs can stand up to the tactic of *"Hit 'em hard, Hit 'em low and give 'em plenty of Dakka*" :mrgreen:


----------



## Lelldorin84

MEQinc said:


> I was speaking on the racial level. Orks were designed as, and served perfectly as, a weapon to defeat the Necrons and the Enslavers. They were designed from the cellular level, as a race, to fight. Tyranids, as a race, have evolved to be the biomass machine that they are.


Once again you miss the total point. WOW orcs were made to be a weapon thats nice. Tyranids evolved to be a biomass machine.......so basically THEY EVOLVED TO A POINT WHERE THE HIVE MIND CAN ACTIVELY MANIPULATE THE GENETIC CODE OF ITS CREATURES TO MAKE THEM STRONGER OR BETTER SUITED FOR THE SITUATION.





MEQinc said:


> How do you know this will happen? The Shadow has been by-passed by human psykers in the past. Further Ravenor shows that a powerful enough psykic force can burn through a psykic null. It is possible (though I think unlikely) that a sufficently numerous and pumped up Ork force could generate enough Waagh energy to shatter the Shadow and thus f-over the hive mind.


Thats nice, by human psykers. I fail to see how you figure this shows that the Orcs can bypass it. Last time I checked Orcs weren't known for their prominent psyker training programs.




MEQinc said:


> Of course, how silly of me to forget the Nids insta-spawn capabilites. Nids are grown. Accelerated, definetely but so are Orks.


So the point is moot which was what I was suggesting but once again you failed to deduce anything.




MEQinc said:


> An Ork becomes stronger, smarter and more capable with every victory. A Carnifex is born with all the knowledge it will ever have. Orks can learn to defeat a Carnifex and go on to do it repeatedly. If a Carnifex is not born with the knowledge of how to kill an Ork it will never gain it.


Ok this point is ridiculous. A carnifex is born with the ability to kill an orc. You missed the point once again. All orcs are "born" as basic orcs (NOT Nobs or Warbosses) and a hive tyrant or carnifex is grow as one, a termigaunt does not have to fight to become one. 




MEQinc said:


> It has been shown that this does not happen with every single world Tyranids attack. Further, these processes take time and rely on the invandees not attempting to stop it. Burnaz seem like the perfect weapon for erradicating the swarm.


You seem to forget the fact that tyranids also have ranged weapons, spore mines, barbed stranglers, pryrovores and other weapons that are good against a swarm of Orcs. SO this point you bring up is useless.




MEQinc said:


> Tyrands may or may not have devoured multiple galaxies, so what? It is clear that tey are struggling to make progress in this galaxy.


So is every race, otherwise Gamesworkshop would have to kill off races and I don't think that would make them much money.



MEQinc said:


> The Orks were not designed to conquor, indeed it appears they were actively designed not to. That they are numerous enough that they could unquestionably conquer is all that is important.


They could but can't because they aren't designed to? The point of this thread is if the Orcs could stop the Tyranids currently invading their worlds.



MEQinc said:


> Orks are also altered in this manner, however they are also capable of self-alteration, of adaptation on the battlefield.


The tyranids are all of one mind, The Hive Mind is aware of what every troop is seeing and doing. But I guess that wouldn't offer an tactical bonus because Orcs can "Adapt on the battlefield". You seem to believe that tyranids are some sort of mindless robots. 



MEQinc said:


> Orks are capable of organization. There is no reason why they would not be able to make a co-ordinated strike against a Tyranid fleet. Further, the fleets tend to be scattered and docile. The Tyranids are not as organized as many people seem to think they are.


 *Tyranid Hive Fleets consist of millions of biomechanical craft*, each serving as host to an untold number of symbiotic organisms. These creatures evolve and spawn from a variety of geno-organisms in the ships' reproductive chambers. All these creatures are born to service the ship, and the ship in turn exists only to service the needs of the Hive Fleet. 

Whereas other armies like those of the Imperium and the Tau fight for conquest or self-defence, and the Forces of Chaos and the Ork clans battle merely for the chance to wreak violence and havoc, the *Tyranid Hive Fleets are driven by the will of the Hive Mind, which itself is motivated by the most ineradicable instinct inherent to all lifeforms - reproduction, and through reproduction and the acquisition of new genetic traits, evolution to a better adapted form. *
Straight from the codex.



MEQinc said:


> Sure, just as an army of termagaunts couldn't defeat an army of full Ork units. What's your point?


My point is that you missed the point. Orcs can spawn more basic Orcs, tyranids can spawn monsterous creatures. Please read properly before take a single sentence out of context to support your failing arguement.




MEQinc said:


> The towers can and have been erradicated or prevented from growing. That the Orks don't consider the Tyranids a serious enough threat to bother erradicating them completely speaks to how little they care.


Proof? Where and when was this written as cannon?


Also if people aren't going to present any information to the disscusion don't post pointless spam about "Fanboyism".


----------



## stalarious

I am on lelldorin's side on this after reading helsreach I gotta say as a whole orks cant work together in small bands sure (tribes that are under one warboss.) but as seen in game play thats no sure thing either orks want to fight among themselves that being one of the reasons orks have not taking over the galaxy yet. Nids will ALWAYS work together and and for a singluar purpose if you read the nid codex it has several examples of nids evolving quickly to a new enemy (Tau,orks, IG, SM). 

The way I see them is Biological Borg your tactics work for a little while then OOPS it dont work no more. And lets face it orks are not the sharpest tool in the in the shed.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

I wish I could minus rep people who will just go on and on and on until a mod closes a useless thread down. Not to imply anyone..



If we are talking planetwide, I would say MAYBE Nid's win, but only becuase of all their lame ass "Dropping stupid bioshit from space" angle. Which orks have no technology to stop. 

But if we are assuming that its all the orks vs all the nids. Orks win hands down. For one thing, I wouldnt be surprised if combined nids in the known galaxy were outnumbered by orcs. And lets not forget that even if they aren't outnumbered, most of the nid swarm is made out of those usless gribblies. Which an orc boy can more than easily deal with.

Not factoring in that orcs require less circumstance to reproduce, (while spawning pools and digestion vats can be destroyed or tampered with) They have access to a far higher level of tech. Surpassing Nids and their craptastic biotech weapons. 

Sure nids have access to Carni's and Tyran's etc. etc. But how many? And how many powerclaw toting nobs you think it would take to tear it apart? Bet Orks have more nobs than you do carni's. 

What do you think the shadow in the warp has anything AT ALL to do with orks? in any way shape or form? Their pyskers dont draw on the warp, and they dont use communication via the warp. So what exactly does that prove?

Also consider, Orks have been around for literally tens of thousands of years. Nid's have been in this galaxy maybe..200? And already their splinter fleets are faltering. 

But it is mentioned again and again how orks have the might to conquere all the species the tyranids seem unable too.

If your not going to logically consider the oppositions arguement before telling them it's wrong. Dont bother joining a forum.


----------



## Serpion5

Does the tyranid`s progress seem stalled? 

Let`s explore that.  
What do we know? 

1: The tyranid "race" is composed of billions upon billions of minds co-ordinated as one. These minds exist as part of a gestalt whole. Destruction of, say a hive tyrant, does not diminish the creature in any permanent sense. 

2: Therefore, these creatures, at least the higher up sentient ones such as tyrants and norn queens, are effectively immortal and harbour millennia if not more worth of accumulated knowledge and experience. The codex confirms this. 

3: So, the tyranids overmind and the Hive Mind leading it, are.. what`s the word? *Immortal?* Their progress has been slowed yes, but they are still undeniably making progress.

4: If a race such as this is truly as immortal as implied, then they would have no need to rush would they? Worlds lost to the tyranids are lost forever. Though the orks appear to be holding the tyranids at bay, other races are not so fortunate. 

5: This thread is speculation. Based on what I know of the lore on both races I have come to the conclusion of a tyranid victory. However, nowhere did I imply that it would be an easy win. Wars can last centuries in this setting, and I have no doubt that this one will as well, if not longer. 



> If your not going to logically consider the oppositions arguement before telling them it's wrong. Dont bother joining a forum.


Hypocrisy much? I`m pretty sure I addressed at least a few of the points you just raised earlier in the thread.


----------



## ThoseKrazyKasrkin

Does anyone remember how ork weapons work soo well because of thier belief conjuring in the warp

Ever heard of the shadow in the warp?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

If I recall correctly it was simply a theory proposed by an Imperial scientist. Not a fact.


----------



## harlokin

ThoseKrazyKasrkin said:


> Does anyone remember how ork weapons work soo well because of thier belief conjuring in the warp
> 
> Ever heard of the shadow in the warp?



The way the Waagh! effect works appears to be pretty much unconnected to The Warp, they certainly never suffer Perils of the Warp/Daemonic attacks while it is effect; I would say if the warp was sealed off from realspace that Ork technology would still work, its psychic principle appears to be largely grounded in a collective thinking (like the Hive Mind) effect rather than any warp-channelling power.


----------



## Xtr4M1nty

Gotta admit, 'Nids probably wouldn't fare so well agains a big enough Waagh!

Orks are the coolest kids in town anyways, everybody loves 'em. 

Cheers
R


----------



## Serpion5

Neither orks nor tyranids draw _directly_ from the warp. However both still utilize warp based energy to a degree. 

Anything that could nullify the warp in an area completely would doubtless render their psychic abilities impaired to at least some degree. I believe this point is moot however as neither race would be depending wholly on psychic abilities to win a war on this scale.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

It makes you wonder whether or not the Chaos powers are powerless to prevent the Orks and Tyranids from using the warp.

Assuming they care.


----------



## Serpion5

Interesting question actually. 

There is little way to know just how extensive and powerful the Hive Mind`s influence in the warp is, perhaps it really is powerful enough to shrug off direct Chaotic assault? The utterly alien mentality it possesses could be just as effective a barrier as a grey knight`s faith, so perhaps the warp is falling prey to the tyranids assault just as surely as the material galaxy is. :dunno: 

And the orks are probably benefitting from some kind of Gork and Mork style "protection." 

Those would be my guesses.


----------



## MEQinc

Lelldorin84 said:


> Once again you miss the total point. WOW orcs were made to be a weapon thats nice. Tyranids evolved to be a biomass machine.......so basically THEY EVOLVED TO A POINT WHERE THE HIVE MIND CAN ACTIVELY MANIPULATE THE GENETIC CODE OF ITS CREATURES TO MAKE THEM STRONGER OR BETTER SUITED FOR THE SITUATION.


Right. Orks were created this way. Orks adapt solely to improve themselves in combat whereas Nid's experiment so as to achieve a better biomass consumption efficiency. Do you see the difference between a race created to be the ultimate warriors (who get better and better as combat goes on) versus a race that evolved to be a very good omnivore?



> Thats nice, by human psykers. I fail to see how you figure this shows that the Orcs can bypass it. Last time I checked Orcs weren't known for their prominent psyker training programs.


The Waagh gestalt energy is generally quite powerful and grows more so with the number of Orks in an area. If a single human psyker is capable of summoning enough power to penetrate the Shadow than I would expect the gestalt to be readily capable of doing so.



> So the point is moot which was what I was suggesting but once again you failed to deduce anything.


Your point implied that you beleived that the Nids had superior reproduction capabilities. I was informing you that they do not. I am unsure as to why you would raise a point you believed to be moot.



> Ok this point is ridiculous. A carnifex is born with the ability to kill an orc. You missed the point once again. All orcs are "born" as basic orcs (NOT Nobs or Warbosses) and a hive tyrant or carnifex is grow as one, a termigaunt does not have to fight to become one.


Orks don't just get bigger as they fight, they also get smarter and more skilled. Further there is evidence that suggests that Orks born in warzones are born stronger and more capable than those born in other areas. Orks are also born with the knowledge to build devices like a teleporter and the ability to be basically stapled back together. 

Nids on the other hand are born with all they will ever have. A Nid that survives a battle is exactly as deadly as it was before, an Ork on the other hand will be more dangerous. An Ork can learn on the individual level (and thus quickly) whereas Nids are dependent on very broad learning and thus will sometimes take generations to implement strategies. 



> You seem to forget the fact that tyranids also have ranged weapons, spore mines, barbed stranglers, pryrovores and other weapons that are good against a swarm of Orcs. SO this point you bring up is useless.


I was not aware of the fact that spore towers were armed. In no way have I discounted the Tyranids ranged weapons. I suggested that flame based weapons would be highly successful at purging Tyranid infestations, an idea which is born out by evidence.



> They could but can't because they aren't designed to? The point of this thread is if the Orcs could stop the Tyranids currently invading their worlds.


You suggested that the Orks were not dangerous because they hadn't conquered the galaxy yet. I was suggesting that the Orks ability to conquer on a galactic scale was removed specifically becuase they were to strong a weapon (a built in kill-switch if you will). In other words the ability of Orks to defend a given world from invasion is in no way related to their ability to conquer a galaxy.



> The tyranids are all of one mind, The Hive Mind is aware of what every troop is seeing and doing. But I guess that wouldn't offer an tactical bonus because Orcs can "Adapt on the battlefield". You seem to believe that tyranids are some sort of mindless robots.


Individual tyranids are mindless robots. The Hive mind is not some single overruling entity, it is a gestalt of the minds of all the Tyranids. It is not really capable of thought on an individualized, directed level. Yes it can co-ordinate large scale actions, provide objectives and commands and direct the evolution of the next wave. However because it's concious is so spread out it takes time to learn and react. It can try and predict the orks actions based on previous actions but orks are notoriously spontaneous. An ork can react to a sudden change in the opponents plan, in real time, with a newly developed strategy. A termangaunt is incapable of creating a new plan in the face of unexpected behaviour, it simply follows the hive minds instructions. If the hive mind does not anticipate the Orks behaviour it cannot and will not have a plan in place to defeat it and will not be able to create and implement one in real time.

*



Tyranid Hive Fleets consist of millions of biomechanical craft

Click to expand...

*


> , each serving as host to an untold number of symbiotic organisms. These creatures evolve and spawn from a variety of geno-organisms in the ships' reproductive chambers. All these creatures are born to service the ship, and the ship in turn exists only to service the needs of the Hive Fleet.
> 
> Whereas other armies like those of the Imperium and the Tau fight for conquest or self-defence, and the Forces of Chaos and the Ork clans battle merely for the chance to wreak violence and havoc, the *Tyranid Hive Fleets are driven by the will of the Hive Mind, which itself is motivated by the most ineradicable instinct inherent to all lifeforms - reproduction, and through reproduction and the acquisition of new genetic traits, evolution to a better adapted form. *
> Straight from the codex.


Congrats. Point? 

Tyranid Hive fleets have fought each other. Tyranid Hive fleets have been scattered and splintered (which is where splinter fleets come from). The Imperium believes that Tyranids are at their most vulnerable in the ships because the ships tend to be dormant (hibernating) during the trips through the void. 



> My point is that you missed the point. Orcs can spawn more basic Orcs, tyranids can spawn monsterous creatures. Please read properly before take a single sentence out of context to support your failing arguement.


Your point was that Tyranids can grow monsterous creatures easily but that Orks need to fight to grow. The ease with which Nids can grow monstrous creates has been addressed in previous posts (ie not easily) so I was simply pointing out the logical fallicy in assuming that an Ork army would consist of nothing but boyz. It has been shown that Orks will tend to get larger simply from the presence of lots of other Orks (no fighting is strictly required) and this will also effect spore growth. It has been suggested that some orks are inherently larger and more vicious than others and thus will effectively be nobs straight out of the ground. No Ork army consists of nothing but boyz, just as no Nid would consist of nothing but Termagaunts.



> Proof? Where and when was this written as cannon?


The fact that not every single planet the Nids touch becomes theirs requires that it be possible to erradicate an infestation already underway. There is literally no other way that the Tyranids could be stopped which they have been in numerous sources. 



Serpion5 said:


> Does the tyranid`s progress seem stalled?


I never said stalled, I said struggling. Obviously the Tyranids are still making progress into the galaxy. However they are not doing so at a rate that one would expect from an unstoppable death machine.



Serpion5 said:


> Interesting question actually.
> 
> There is little way to know just how extensive and powerful the Hive Mind`s influence in the warp is, perhaps it really is powerful enough to shrug off direct Chaotic assault? The utterly alien mentality it possesses could be just as effective a barrier as a grey knight`s faith, so perhaps the warp is falling prey to the tyranids assault just as surely as the material galaxy is. :dunno:
> 
> And the orks are probably benefitting from some kind of Gork and Mork style "protection."
> 
> Those would be my guesses.


I'd agree with that assessment. Plus, how much control do the Gods actually have over people channelling the warp? After all psykers are often used to combat the forces of Chaos and one would think that if the Gods could simply deny them access to the warp they would have done so (makes it much easier to beat the Emp for example).


----------



## Angelofdeath690

I prefer to stay out of long waged arguments especially dealing with Tyranids as i do play them. But As for a comment made in the last post before mine about how the hive mind can't react to new plans that appear on the battlefield quickly I would like to point out that Tyrants and particularly the Swarmlord is made for such a purpose. 



> Individual tyranids are mindless robots. The Hive mind is not some single overruling entity, it is a gestalt of the minds of all the Tyranids. It is not really capable of thought on an individualized, directed level. Yes it can co-ordinate large scale actions, provide objectives and commands and direct the evolution of the next wave. However because it's concious is so spread out it takes time to learn and react. It can try and predict the orks actions based on previous actions but orks are notoriously spontaneous. An ork can react to a sudden change in the opponents plan, in real time, with a newly developed strategy. A termangaunt is incapable of creating a new plan in the face of unexpected behaviour, it simply follows the hive minds instructions. If the hive mind does not anticipate the Orks behaviour it cannot and will not have a plan in place to defeat it and will not be able to create and implement one in real time.


They lead and see through the armies they are connected through and can get a good grasp of a battlefield and events. Particularly in the case of the Swarmlord who has been stated to have planned and out stratagized Marneus Calgar during the battle at of Macragge (particularly steel ridge). It shows that even if an enemy is changing tactics mid battle the knowledge the tyranids have access because of the hive mind and particularly its Swarmlord and Tyrants can adjust to immediate changes.


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## MEQinc

Angelofdeath690 said:


> I prefer to stay out of long waged arguments especially dealing with Tyranids as i do play them. But As for a comment made in the last post before mine about how the hive mind can't react to new plans that appear on the battlefield quickly I would like to point out that Tyrants and particularly the Swarmlord is made for such a purpose.


It's a shame then that the Swarmlord isn't part of every Tyranid army. And that Tyrants can be targeted and killed rather easily. Generally speaking an individual Tyranid is not capable of thinking by itself (at least intelligently, instinct is a whole other thing).


----------



## Angelofdeath690

MEQinc said:


> It's a shame then that the Swarmlord isn't part of every Tyranid army. And that Tyrants can be targeted and killed rather easily. Generally speaking an individual Tyranid is not capable of thinking by itself (at least intelligently, instinct is a whole other thing).



The same can be said of warbosses, without them many of the orks would fall back and in fight between the bigger orks. I was only pointing out that the Tyranids are capable of adjusting to immediate change.


----------



## MEQinc

Angelofdeath690 said:


> The same can be said of warbosses, without them many of the orks would fall back and in fight between the bigger orks. I was only pointing out that the Tyranids are capable of adjusting to immediate change.


That's true however a Warboss is a) not the only Ork capable of reacting to an incident and b) not unique (ie when one dies another can step up immediately). Further Orks aren't as likely to squabble during a battle itself and the after-war fighting will result in several of the Orks getting bigger.


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## Angelofdeath690

MEQinc said:


> That's true however a Warboss is a) not the only Ork capable of reacting to an incident and b) not unique (ie when one dies another can step up immediately). Further Orks aren't as likely to squabble during a battle itself and the after-war fighting will result in several of the Orks getting bigger.



Your point is also valid, I will point out that there are more synapse creatures than just the Tyrants to hold the tyranids together much like the orks taking over for a warboss but just like how killing the synapse creatures affects tyranids the orks will falter without their former leadership. They can indeed think on their own but the warbosses are usually what focuses the battles and without that they are prone to having more organizational problems than before. ( this has been shown in many battles to happen even during fights where those not in immediate combat will begin to try to lay claim to power and control. Yes those in direct combat won't stop the fight and will probably act as they deem fit.)

I am not trying to say that the Tyranids would stomp all over Orks or vise versa im of the opinon that it would be an almost eternal meat grinder for them both. (unless a third party interrupts). I just felt that correcting the comment made so that it was accurate was needed.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

About this shadow in the warp thing. Is it ever actually stated that ork "pyskers" draw upon the warp? Or is it more of a...physical energy generated by the numbers, and battle hunger of those Orks? Seeing as how C'tan have pretty much absolute mastery of material matter, which to an unlearned observer could be interpreted as being "pyschic" or in some way or shape supermaterial.


----------



## Lelldorin84

MEQinc said:


> Right. Orks were created this way. Orks adapt solely to improve themselves in combat whereas Nid's experiment so as to achieve a better biomass consumption efficiency. Do you see the difference between a race created to be the ultimate warriors (who get better and better as combat goes on) versus a race that evolved to be a very good omnivore?


No orcs weren't, you are taking liberties with the material. Orcs were made by the old ones to be warriors, maybe the ultimate warriors 60 million years ago. Tyranids are altered by the hivemind to better function in their task. ie making a warrior the perfect warrior for its job. Biomass consumption is not even there job the tyranids you see as models have, they have one purpose, to kill opposition. 




MEQinc said:


> The Waagh gestalt energy is generally quite powerful and grows more so with the number of Orks in an area. If a single human psyker is capable of summoning enough power to penetrate the Shadow than I would expect the gestalt to be readily capable of doing so.


Ok so more orc warbands start showing up to the system and are destroyed by the MILLIONS of hive fleet ships encircling the planet.




MEQinc said:


> Your point implied that you beleived that the Nids had superior reproduction capabilities. I was informing you that they do not. I am unsure as to why you would raise a point you believed to be moot.


Millions of ships producing every troop type in alternating patterns to create a seemingly relentless, endless swarm VS Orc boyz slowly growing from spores over months.
From orc codex: adult Orks are constantly giving off fungus-like spores which lie in the ground of worlds they invade or settle, *often for years*, waiting to develop into Orks or Gretchin.




MEQinc said:


> Orks don't just get bigger as they fight, they also get smarter and more skilled. Further there is evidence that suggests that Orks born in warzones are born stronger and more capable than those born in other areas. Orks are also born with the knowledge to build devices like a teleporter and the ability to be basically stapled back together.


Other than warbosses I don't see how this has any relevance. Hive mind controls Synaptic tyranids which in turn control the smaller troops. They don't need to get smarter when the hive mind is already ancient and a veteran of countless conquests.



MEQinc said:


> Nids on the other hand are born with all they will ever have. A Nid that survives a battle is exactly as deadly as it was before, an Ork on the other hand will be more dangerous. An Ork can learn on the individual level (and thus quickly) whereas Nids are dependent on very broad learning and thus will sometimes take generations to implement strategies.


 The hive mind learns from each encounter and dead tyranids are recycled into new tyranids. The experience of a dead tyranid stays with the hivemind. A Warboss or Nob take their experience to the grave.
Once again where are you getting your info, I have read 4th and 5th edition Tyranid codexes and none of your counter points are in it so you must once again be taking liberties with the material.




MEQinc said:


> I was not aware of the fact that spore towers were armed. In no way have I discounted the Tyranids ranged weapons. I suggested that flame based weapons would be highly successful at purging Tyranid infestations, an idea which is born out by evidence.


Spore towers aren't armed they pump out microscopic spores that destroy life on a cellular level. Flame weapons are fine against any swarm army, ie ORCS. Both tyranids and orcs have flamers so they give no one the edge so drop this point.




MEQinc said:


> You suggested that the Orks were not dangerous because they hadn't conquered the galaxy yet. I was suggesting that the Orks ability to conquer on a galactic scale was removed specifically becuase they were to strong a weapon (a built in kill-switch if you will). In other words the ability of Orks to defend a given world from invasion is in no way related to their ability to conquer a galaxy.


I suggested nothing, I was pointing out the redundancy of your previous post. The orcs could take over the galaxy but the can't, is what it came down to. Which is a point you were trying to use to prove that they could defend against tyranids.


----------



## Lelldorin84

MEQinc said:


> Individual tyranids are mindless robots. The Hive mind is not some single overruling entity, it is a gestalt of the minds of all the Tyranids. It is not really capable of thought on an individualized, directed level. Yes it can co-ordinate large scale actions, provide objectives and commands and direct the evolution of the next wave. However because it's concious is so spread out it takes time to learn and react.[\QUOTE]
> 
> Uh please show me where gw has written that the hivemind is spread too thin between its creatures. (Once again another point you took the liberty of making up....whats that now? 3 times you've done that)
> 
> *From Tyranid codex*:All Tyranids possess a common psychic bond, known as the Synapse. This bond enables the Tyranid swarms to think, perceive, and act as a single great super-organism, providing nearly seamless co-ordination and control.
> 
> Hmm says one super organism not a gestalt mind. The tyranid fleet itself is one creature made up of many parts. SIGH, yet again you display your limited knowledge of tyranids and your habit of making up information to suit your purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> It can try and predict the orks actions based on previous actions but orks are notoriously spontaneous. An ork can react to a sudden change in the opponents plan, in real time, with a newly developed strategy. A termangaunt is incapable of creating a new plan in the face of unexpected behaviour, it simply follows the hive minds instructions. If the hive mind does not anticipate the Orks behaviour it cannot and will not have a plan in place to defeat it and will not be able to create and implement one in real time.[\QUOTE]
> 
> See previous point above..
> You make up yet another point. Tyranids are quite capable of altering there plans to suit the situation
> All Tyranids possess a common psychic bond, known as the Synapse. This bond enables the Tyranid swarms to think, perceive, and act as a single great super-organism, providing nearly seamless co-ordination and control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats. Point? [\QUOTE]
> 
> This was the point that I bolded but you failed to grasp.
> 
> _evolution to a better adapted form._
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tyranid Hive fleets have fought each other. Tyranid Hive fleets have been scattered and splintered (which is where splinter fleets come from). The Imperium believes that Tyranids are at their most vulnerable in the ships because the ships tend to be dormant (hibernating) during the trips through the void.[\QUOTE]
> 
> Tyranids have fought each other in very rare circumstances that are usually contrived for the situation. I have never read about 2 hive fleets duking it out.
> OK, but the tyranids are at the orcs' worlds and fully awake so this has no relevance at all unless you can find an instance of orcs hunting tyranid ships through interstellar space.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your point was that Tyranids can grow monsterous creatures easily but that Orks need to fight to grow. The ease with which Nids can grow monstrous creates has been addressed in previous posts (ie not easily) so I was simply pointing out the logical fallicy in assuming that an Ork army would consist of nothing but boyz. It has been shown that Orks will tend to get larger simply from the presence of lots of other Orks (no fighting is strictly required) and this will also effect spore growth.[\QUOTE]
> 
> See previous point, millions of ships producing troops at once.
> Also how was it addressed you jut claim it takes along time and figure it should stop at that, ONCE again you make up information to suit your point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has been suggested that some orks are inherently larger and more vicious than others and thus will effectively be nobs straight out of the ground.[\QUOTE]
> 
> :laugh::laugh: Nobs from spores,I have seen that written nowhere, Please provide a link to where it has been suggested, or is this another of your patented made up "facts".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that not every single planet the Nids touch becomes theirs requires that it be possible to erradicate an infestation already underway. There is literally no other way that the Tyranids could be stopped which they have been in numerous sources.[\QUOTE]
> 
> So numerous that you can't even provide one occasion?
> And don't say the battle of maccragge, because there were no orcs involved in that.
> 
> 
> From tyranid codex:
> _This is what makes the Tyranid species such a threat: it is an evolved metapredator capable of out-producing, out-consuming, and out-lasting all other species it encounters, having done so on a disquietingly unknowable number of prior occasions across a vast swathe of intergalactic space. _
> 
> _Given that each Tyranid Hive Fleet has approached the Milky Way from a different direction, this may imply that the Tyranids have consumed a disturbingly large number of nearby galaxies. _
> 
> 
> You have basic knowledge(at best) about tyranids and you make up points to suit your arguements. If the orcs can beat the tyranids you have yet to bring up a point to prove it. Please bow out and save yourself further embaressment because honestly I am getting tired with rebuking the same points you keep posting over and over. It was fun but its over now.
> 
> TYRANIDS WIN IN FLUFF BATTLE.....until the C'Tan awaken and destroy everyone.
> 
> In table top its always an interesting battle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Serpion5

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> About this shadow in the warp thing. Is it ever actually stated that ork "pyskers" draw upon the warp? Or is it more of a...physical energy generated by the numbers, and battle hunger of those Orks? Seeing as how C'tan have pretty much absolute mastery of material matter, which to an unlearned observer could be interpreted as being "pyschic" or in some way or shape supermaterial.


Tyranids and orks alike use the warp, but they use it _indirectly_. The Hive Mind exists within the warp, composed of chatter and communication across billions of bodies between Hive Fleets and drowning out the normal flow of the warp. It is this that also accounts for the aforementioned _Shadow in the Warp._

Orks similarly generate a psychic field around themselves rather than draw directly from the warp. This field is greater depending on how numerous and focussed the ork populace is. 


In both cases, the psykers of each race draw on the field generated by the masses rather than directly from the warp itself. This is why the whole psychic battle scenario is invalid, because the Shadow in the Warp would have little effect on the orks in terms of fluff.


----------



## MEQinc

Lelldorin84 said:


> No orcs weren't, you are taking liberties with the material. Orcs were made by the old ones to be warriors, maybe the ultimate warriors 60 million years ago.


These statements are directly contradictory. Orks were created to be the ultimate warrior species (as you yourself say), I never claimed they were still the ultimate. 



> Tyranids are altered by the hivemind to better function in their task. ie making a warrior the perfect warrior for its job. Biomass consumption is not even there job the tyranids you see as models have, they have one purpose, to kill opposition.


The entire Tyranid race exists to propogate itself. It does this through consuming as much biomass as possible. On occasion (numerous occasion but also the only interesting ones) it must confront native organisms which do not wish to be consumed. This leads to confrontation and 'battle'. However Nids are using these battles simply to aquire more resources not for any love of battle. The individual tyranids we see on the battlefield are warrior organism because, surprise surprise, they are involved solely in war. However, as a race, Tyranids are a biomass consumtion organism first and a warrior race second.



> Ok so more orc warbands start showing up to the system and are destroyed by the MILLIONS of hive fleet ships encircling the planet.


Ork fleets can also be numerous as they have devestated Imperial fleets in the past. An orbital victory is *far *from assured for the Tyranids.



> Millions of ships producing every troop type in alternating patterns to create a seemingly relentless, endless swarm


The Tyranids do not have millions of ships capable of spawning new warriors. Further none of these ships are capable of instantly creating and deploying a warrior.



> From orc codex: adult Orks are constantly giving off fungus-like spores which lie in the ground of worlds they invade or settle, *often for years*, waiting to develop into Orks or Gretchin.


Yes, the spores often wait for years before beginning to grow. However once they start to grow they generally produce an Ork within a month or so. Further this is an Ork warrior who is already on the ground and ready to go, not in orbit. Also as Orks are continuously giving off spores it is possible for numerous orks to grow from one. A dead Tyranid can make exactly one more of its kind.



> They don't need to get smarter when the hive mind is already ancient and a veteran of countless conquests.


Just because you're a veteran doesn't mean there's no room for growth. The Orks have fought and defeated experienced veterans in the past (Armaggedon, that planet in _Fear the Alien_, etc) because they are unpredictable and spontaneous.



> The hive mind learns from each encounter and dead tyranids are recycled into new tyranids.


Only if a recovery organism gets it. If Tyranids are pushed back they are unable to claim the lost biomass. Meaning that for every defeat the Hive fleet becomes weaker as it is denied the ability to replace its loses.



> Once again where are you getting your info, I have read 4th and 5th edition Tyranid codexes and none of your counter points are in it so you must once again be taking liberties with the material.


Everything I have said is common sense, based upon a variety of sources which deal with the Tyranids from a different point of view (ie not the bais of the codex). various eds of the rulebook, C:SM, WD articles, etc. Obviously I am extrapolating from this material as we are dealing with a situation which has not been directly addressed in any material that I am aware of. 



> Spore towers aren't armed they pump out microscopic spores that destroy life on a cellular level. Flame weapons are fine against any swarm army, ie ORCS. Both tyranids and orcs have flamers so they give no one the edge so drop this point.


My point about the flamers was purely in regard to dealing with non-combat organisms like the spore towers. As the towers are not armed any Orks who approach them will be able to destroy them with a fair degree of ease. Flamers make an excellent weapon for this. Orks do not require towers or other such highly visible and targettable devices to reproduce, or for any other purpose. Therefore it will be more difficult for a Tyranid to hunt down and burn an Ork infestation. I was not speaking about the combat uses of flamers as obviously they are quite effective against orks. 



> I suggested nothing, I was pointing out the redundancy of your previous post. The orcs could take over the galaxy but the can't, is what it came down to. Which is a point you were trying to use to prove that they could defend against tyranids.





> Tyranids could have whiped out multiple GALAXIES for all we know and orks haven't even attempted to take over one, all they are looking for is a fight.


You suggest exactly that in this post, which is what I was orginally responding too. You imply that the Orks are not a threat because they have not conquered this galaxy. I was attempting to point out that this has nothing to do with marital ability. In other words: "the ability of Orks to defend a given world from invasion is in no way related to their ability to conquer a galaxy."



Lelldorin84 said:


> Uh please show me where gw has written that the hivemind is spread too thin between its creatures.


This was a logical extrapolation. I personnally find it difficult to believe that a single consciousness would be capable of monitoring, interpreting and responding to the literally trillions of varied inputs it will be getting. This is further supported by several pieces of evidence. For starters, the fact that the Hive mind chooses (or is forced) to direct its decisions through a relay of synaptic control rather than just into it's creatures head. The existance (and special nature of) creatures capable of independent thought and innovation (as another poster pointed out) also suggest that the Hive mind is not capable of doing this with every creature on its own. Another point would be the fact that Hive fleets do not all spontaneously begin showing developments evolved by another fleet, clearly the hive mind is not capable of passing such info along.



> Hmm says one super organism not a gestalt mind.


Other editions of the codex, and I believe the main rulebook, have stated that the Hive Mind is the collection of the individual Tyranids conscious. This is what gestalt means. The gestalt mind allows the tyranid to act as a super-organism, though one which does occasionally struggle to maintain control and cohesion.



> Tyranids are quite capable of altering there plans to suit the situation


Care to provide an example where the Tyranids react in real-time to an unanticipated development? I personally have yet to see one.



> This was the point that I bolded but you failed to grasp.
> 
> _evolution to a better adapted form._


I didn't fail to grasp it, I failed to see what was new in it, because nothing was. You've made this point before. Again I'll point out that a) they evolve not necessarily to a better battle-field role but rather to a better 'form' which means little, b) Orks also evolve to a better adapted battle-field role and c) Orks have a head start, seeing as they were created to be the ultimate warrior race.



> Tyranids have fought each other in very rare circumstances that are usually contrived for the situation. I have never read about 2 hive fleets duking it out.
> OK, but the tyranids are at the orcs' worlds and fully awake so this has no relevance at all unless you can find an instance of orcs hunting tyranid ships through interstellar space.


Thank you for conseeding that point. 

Now, though there are no examples of Orks hunting Tyranid ships (because this is a hypothetical conflict) I see no reason why Orks would not be capable of this action. Orks have demonstrated the ability to learn from their opponents (particularly humans who do indeed employ this strategy), a willingness to pursue opponents and an eagerness to fight that could certainly motivate a hunt.



> See previous point, millions of ships producing troops at once.
> Also how was it addressed you jut claim it takes along time and figure it should stop at that, ONCE again you make up information to suit your point.


Again, they don't have millions of ships and each one is not capable of producing every type of unit. Secondly, do you really think it is logically possible to instantly grow anything, let alone a massive beasty like a Carnifex? It's patently rediculous and goes well beyond straining the imagination. If the hive were capable of this kind of rapid growth of millions of Carnifexs would not every single tyranid army be made of them? Yet Carnifexs and other big beasties are generally late-stage invasion creatures, which suggests (admittedly without directly stating) that this is not possible.



> :laugh::laugh: Nobs from spores,I have seen that written nowhere, Please provide a link to where it has been suggested, or is this another of your patented made up "facts".


I can't recall the exact source (I think it was one of the older Ork codexes, 3rd maybe) but it was noted by Imperial scientists that Orks get bigger in more numerous societies, making special note of Charradon a heavily populated Ork system and speculating that Orks there might grow to be absoulutely massive. Given that Charradon is not under any kind of routine invasion the Orks have little to fight but themselves and because they cannot create a society if they are constantly infighting (and Orks do form societies) I took that to suggest that Orks can be born bigger. Further is it really that rediculous to suggest that some members of a race might be born inherently larger, stronger or more vicious?



> So numerous that you can't even provide one occasion?
> And don't say the battle of maccragge, because there were no orcs involved in that.


Of course no Orks were involved in that. What we are discussing is a hypothetical conflict, if it had actually happened then there would be no need to discuss it. Nothing that the Imperium did on Maccragge is beyond the ability of the Orks to repeat. Maccragge (and other worlds) have shown that it is possible to erradicate a Tyranid infestation. 



> You have basic knowledge(at best) about tyranids and you make up points to suit your arguements.


I extrapolate from existing fluff using a logical and fairly unbaised approach to develop points about a hypothetical conflict for which we have little information. You are doing the same. I'm not going to appologize for not knowing every detail of Tyranid fluff, just like I don't know everything about Orks. 



> If the orcs can beat the tyranids you have yet to bring up a point to prove it.


You'll note that I have never once claimed that the Orks were clear victors in this conflict. I personally don't care who wins. However I am tired of people claiming Tyranids are an unstoppable death machine that pwns everything so I am making a completely logical argument showing that Orks would put up a very good fight and could win just as easily as the Tyranids.



> Please bow out and save yourself further embaressment because honestly I am getting tired with rebuking the same points you keep posting over and over.


If you are unable or unwilling to address my posts on a logical and as-impartial-as-possible manner than don't. We are both pretty much circling the drain by this point, so if nothing new comes up k:.


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## Angelofdeath690

> Care to provide an example where the Tyranids react in real-time to an unanticipated development? I personally have yet to see one.


If you want an example of this there is one that i referenced slightly in my post.



> The Hive Mind had by this point targeted Calgar as the main threat to the Tyranid advance. The Swarmlord, the Hive Mind's deadliest servant, was dispatched to deal with him. The arrival of this unique beast was the turning point of the battle, for the defenders were beginning to grasp the near-mindless, rampaging way in which the swarms attacked, but now the Swarmlord's influence infused the Tyranids with a keen strategy. The defender's left flank was suddenly assaulted by tunneling Raveners, which only served as a diversion to lead the Ultramarines away from the Swarmlord's true target - the Pride of Hera. The Baneblade was left wide open for a wave of Carnifexes to rip it apart. Calgar watched as his enemy's tactics unfolded. Gargoyles and Harpies preyed upon officers and sergeants of the Auxilia units. Biovores bombarded the defenders and forced them to spread out to minimize casualties, but this in turn left them vulnerable to Mawloc and Trygon attacks. The Ultramarines reacted to each threat with valor and bolstered weakened sections of their line; however they were outnumbered and outmatched. Then the Swarmlord, with a bodyguard of Tyrant Guard and Tyranid Warriors, bellowed a challenge to Calgar and charged directly towards his position. The Ultramarines rushed to aid their Chapter Master, but even this movement was planned for by the Swarmlord. Hundreds of apparently dead Hormagants strewn across the ground leapt to sudden life and bogged down the Space Marines, delaying them from reaching Calgar.


I chose this one only because it shows that the Tyranids are capable of making tactics to deal with the fact that the humans had figured out their fighting pattern.


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## MEQinc

Angelofdeath690 said:


> If you want an example of this there is one that i referenced slightly in my post.
> 
> 
> 
> I chose this one only because it shows that the Tyranids are capable of making tactics to deal with the fact that the humans had figured out their fighting pattern.


I've already made an exception for the Swarmlord and it's tactical abilites. The quote/info you provided actually backs my point up nicely as up until the Swarmlord (a special creature specifically designed to provide tactics and innovation) invervened the Ultramarines were easily defeating the "near-mindless" way in which the Tyranids attacked. Near-mindless and rampaging are not good words to describe advanced tactical thinking or intelligent reactions.


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## Serpion5

Take note that the Hive Mind is not a sentient entity in and of itself. Each Fleet has its own dominating will, as does each swarm. The Swarmlord itself could be considered a battlefield commander whereas a generic Hive Tyrant must command a wider theater of war. The Norn Queen in orbit then controls the fleets movements and responds to the Tyrant`s needs on the ground. 

People assume that there is a single will controlling everything. However this defeats the purpose of some creatures being able to think independently, which the codex has confirmed is the case. 




> Care to provide an example where the Tyranids react in real-time to an unanticipated development? I personally have yet to see one.


There is an example in the tyranid codex whereupon the remnants of s depleted swarm manage to outwit an ok stronghold and lure the warboss into an assassination. Note that this was a depleted swarm not under the command of anything higher than a brood of tyranid warriors. 



> See previous point, millions of ships producing troops at once.


The vast majority of ships consist of Kraken and other escort organisms. These are designed for ship to ship warfare, not planetary assaults. The comparitively rarer _Hive Ships_ themselves are the only ones capable of making planetary assaults in the form of mycetic and other kinds of spores. 

And to my knowledge, no Hive Fleet consists of _millions_ of ships. It would be a stretch to say one numbered in the thousands even.


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