# Universal creation and the coming of man



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

After all my years of being a wh40k enthusiast, I have not come across enough evidence to figure out GW's explanation of how the Universe was born and how mankind came to be. I suppose the reason why GW has left us in the dark was to avoid getting criticized by religious fundamentalists or liberals. However what I do know is that GW hints that mankind was planted here by the Old Ones (correct me if Im wrong). 

However it seems to me that GW is hinting that both the Universe and mankind was created by intelligent design. Again correct me if Im wrong.


----------



## Tau22 (Apr 27, 2009)

Well, there are the Old Ones, who created most of the psychi... wait... humans ain't exactly a psychic race... not as much as the Eldar, anyway.
Well... if it's not them... I dunno.


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Tau22 said:


> Well, there are the Old Ones, who created most of the psychi... wait... humans ain't exactly a psychic race... not as much as the Eldar, anyway.
> Well... if it's not them... I dunno.


Excuse me, mate, but I think Humanity is definitely a psychic race. A rough one, but the fact is, Humanity numbers an huge amount of psykers... let's just count the Emperor in for instance... Sure, Eldars are more powerful, but they're also older and had time to mature, before falling hard and degenerate...

Anyway, I might remember that *GW* sells games where we push lead/plastic figures in Fantasy and SF universes, so I gess they didn't think their background that much as to establish 'em according to near-scientific para-evolutionary concepts... The lazy bastards...


----------



## Tau22 (Apr 27, 2009)

Eldar were psychically powerful from the very start, since they needed to kick 'Cron arse.
Also, I said they are not as strong as Eldar... so, if we were made by the Old Ones, it wasn't to fight Necrons.


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Tau22 said:


> Eldar were psychically powerful from the very start, since they needed to kick 'Cron arse.
> Also, I said they are not as strong as Eldar... so, if we were made by the Old Ones, it wasn't to fight Necrons.


Which a very different concept. But we tread off from humanity not being a psychic race... If I remember well, the Tau got no psychic talents at all for instance.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Carnivore said:


> Which a very different concept. But we tread off from humanity not being a psychic race... If I remember well, the Tau got no psychic talents at all for instance.



At least we are all 100% sure the Tau evolved from a more primitive species.


----------



## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Humanity also evolved from a more primitive species.
There are fluff quotes from eldar stuff along those lines.
"While your kind were still swinging from trees, we ruled a stellar empire..."

Eldar and the (kr)ork were MADE by the old ones. As weapons against the c'tan and their necron servants (eldar for the psychic, krork for the muscle). Humanity wasn't (the old ones having since long gone beyond) their emergence is as a result of 'natural' evolution.


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

chromedog said:


> Humanity also evolved from a more primitive species.
> There are fluff quotes from eldar stuff along those lines.
> "While your kind were still swinging from trees, we ruled a stellar empire..."
> 
> Eldar and the (kr)ork were MADE by the old ones. As weapons against the c'tan and their necron servants (eldar for the psychic, krork for the muscle). Humanity wasn't (the old ones having since long gone beyond) their emergence is as a result of 'natural' evolution.


Yep, but they're still a psychic endowed race...:mrgreen:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

tony161 said:


> Humans have only recently became psychic (compared to the eldar) because they started to travel through the warp. The tau arn't pschic because the don't travel through the warp, they skim it.


Humanity isnt psychic because it travels through the warp. In fact it is the other way around - Humanity is able to travel through the warp because it is a psychic race (Navigators).

Tau are unable to travel properly through the warp because their entire race lacks the navigator gene, or some other method of navigating the warp.



tony161 said:


> So on that idea the 40k universe was built and designed by the old ones.


No the Old Ones were just the first galatic civilisation, they didnt create the universe at all.


----------



## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Treewizard648 said:


> At least we are all 100% sure the Tau evolved from a more primitive species.


not true if you read the tau codex then its clear that to quote Genetor Secundus Zachary Santigo "the evolutionary history of the tau is extremly complicated." if you read the official GW stuff then its clear that the tau evolved in a fashion similar to modern humans only much faster.:grin:


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

it also states that tau ethereals are the only tau beings with some amount of psychic power, it may be minimal but they have some.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> it also states that tau ethereals are the only tau beings with some amount of psychic power, it may be minimal but they have some.



Thats a theory, I read somewhere that ethereals have a very powerful influence over the Tau because they have a gland in their forehead that secretes a pheromone and when other Tau come into contact with the pheromone, it makes them stronger both mentally and physically. 

This may also be the reason why it is forbidden to mate with other castes so the Ethereals can protect their genetic traits. 

Another good example was how the Vespid were quickly manipulated by the Ethereals, they must be highly sensitive the the Ethereal pheromone as well. Plus Vespid are insect like, some insects communicate using pheromones ESPECIALLY Bees!


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

chromedog said:


> ........There are fluff quotes from eldar stuff along those lines. "While your kind were still swinging from trees, we ruled a stellar empire......



That sounds more like a joke than a fact, mainly because my relatives say that about all kinds of people (I wont say who)


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> That sounds more like a joke than a fact, mainly because my relatives say that about all kinds of people (I wont say who)


I don't think, it's a pun. According to *GW* fluff, Eldars are very old and could already have had their galactic empire while man was still at a primitive stage of evolution.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Carnivore said:


> I don't think, it's a pun. According to *GW* fluff, Eldars are very old and could already have had their galactic empire while man was still at a primitive stage of evolution.


They certainly did. :grin:



Eldar Codex Page 4 said:


> Over a million years ago, when their civilisation was at its height, the Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy.


And I believe the other quote you are looking for is:



Farseer Eldrad Ulthran said:


> What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Well, Child-of-the-Emperor, then I might be mistaken and I may have misunderstood your reply, but what you quote tends to support my pretense as GW not making a joke when they say, Eldars is a far older civilization than man's. What do you think? Or maybe were we telling the very same thing but in a different way...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Carnivore said:


> Well, Child-of-the-Emperor, then I might be mistaken and I may have misunderstood your reply, but what you quote tends to support my pretense as GW not making a joke when they say, Eldars is a far older civilization than man's. What do you think? Or maybe were we telling the very same thing but in a different way...


Yes I was backing you up with the quotes! Yes our points are the same :victory:

The Eldar had a galactic civilisation over a million years before M41 according to the Eldar Codex - So way before humanity had even evolved into recognisable humans. Slowly but surely the Eldar civilisation devolved into a hedonistic society leading eventually to the Fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh in M29.


----------



## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Treewizard648 said:


> After all my years of being a wh40k enthusiast, I have not come across enough evidence to figure out GW's explanation of how the Universe was born and how mankind came to be.


there is actually a good reason for that. it is because GW have never discussed it, at all, let alone in detail. there are a number of reasons for this:

firstly, i would have guessed it was mostly to do with the dark-age like setting of the game. people are incapable of looking beyond themselves, either to the past or to the future. both are blurry, unknown and unknowable worlds. the only thing that is relevant is the here and now. it is only recently that we have learnt anything serious about the Horus Heresy and Great Crusade. significant discussion of the origins of the universe would undoubtedly destory our ability to perceive the universe as the avergae man of the 41st millennia would. if we are given-out-of-character, god-like understanding of the situation it becomes impossible to sympathise with the blunt and bigotted views of the far distant future.

secondly, the cultures in the game are predominantly henotheistic/polytheistic (that is to say that they believe in a pantheon of higher beings, but only concern themselves with one that is relevant to themselves). that means that they share a lot of similarities with other polytheistic belief systems (both ancient and modern); things like a disbelief in transcendent deities, an assumption that the universe was formed from pre-existent material and the inaccesibility of the past. these all combine to create a world veiw that is really, very unconcerned with the the idea of where the world comes from.

thirdly, and in many ways, most importantly, it is irrellevent to the game. GW are under no pressure to try and create a complete and rational game universe. there really is no reason to assume that there is some profound truth behind it all that can be found if we follow the clues. in fact there's no reason to assume that there is any 'truth' at all, let alone one that can be found.

its nice to think that there is some explaination, but don't expect to find one by reading the background the 'right way'.



Treewizard648 said:


> However it seems to me that GW is hinting that both the Universe and mankind was created by intelligent design. Again correct me if Im wrong.


i can't honestly say that i have ever come across that suggestion. the very oldest race that is talked about are the C'tan, and they are very simple creatures that have supposedly evolved. equally, the Old Ones do not start life, but nuture it where ever it is found, and shape that which shows potential to meet their ends.

its all very reminiscent of the 2001 series by Arthur C Clarke. in fact the description of the C'tan in their natural state is particulalry evocative of a recurring scene in which we are shown a vision of the creature that have evolved on Jupiter.



Tau22 said:


> Well, there are the Old Ones, who created most of the psychi... wait... humans ain't exactly a psychic race... not as much as the Eldar, anyway.


perhaps that should be, 'not yet anyway'. the background that surrounds the Emperor suggests that his main goal in life (and death) is to guide Humanity through its painful adolesence and rebirth into a fully psychic race. in fact, there is some suggestion that the fall of the Eldar was at their tipping point, and because they were not a strong (emotionally) as the Old Ones and lacked leadership their conversion caused their destruction. its clear that the human race is heading the same way and the Emperor intends to make sure this time the story has a different ending.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Ok, then if humanity wasint nurtured by the old ones like the Eldar and Orks, then why are we psychic? 

The way I figure this is the Tau evolved at a rate of 20x that of humans and none of them are psychic. (I dont care what anyone says, the Ethereals ARE NOT psychic, nor will they ever be.) 

Could it be possible that the old ones may have enkindled or created a stable environment for human life to prosper as one last hope before getting scattered to the winds?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> Ok, then if humanity wasint nurtured by the old ones like the Eldar and Orks, then why are we psychic?


To my knowledge the vast majority of all Species in the galaxy are potentially 'psychic' - They have warp presences and develop psykers. 



Treewizard648 said:


> The way I figure this is the Tau evolved at a rate of 20x that of humans and none of them are psychic. (I dont care what anyone says, the Ethereals ARE NOT psychic, nor will they ever be.)


This is the exception. Even though the Tau don't have any Psykers they still register a faint warp presence.

This points to the Tau being designed specifically to not be Psychic (aswell as there super fast evolution process), rather than humanity being designed to be Psychic (As the vast majority of races in the galaxy are psychic).

Isn't there a theory (I've been trying to find where I read it for a while now) or subtle hints that the Tau, or at least the Etherals were 'designed' or 'nurtured' by a far older race, I seem to remember it had something to do with the Harlequins/Cegorach. Anyone heard anything about this?



Treewizard648 said:


> Could it be possible that the old ones may have enkindled or created a stable environment for human life to prosper as one last hope before getting scattered to the winds?


I suppose its plausable. But I dont believe theres any evidence to suggest this. Creating Humanity as a last ditch hope does seems a bit silly, especially considering humanity is considerably weak when it comes to the temptations of Chaos, and humanity is by itself the largest supplier of souls and energy/power to the Chaos Gods. 

It would make more sense however that the Old Ones had some part in the creation of the Emperor - seeing as though he alone is now holding back the tide of Chaos.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ............I suppose its plausable. But I dont believe theres any evidence to suggest this. Creating Humanity as a last ditch hope does seems a bit silly, especially considering humanity is considerably weak when it comes to the temptations of Chaos, and humanity is by itself the largest supplier of souls and energy/power to the Chaos Gods.............



Yes you are right, humans are rather weak and puny (even in reality) but when we all come together for a great cause, we can make our goals manifest. What im getting at is humans can do anything if we put our mind to it, and when we all can do this at the same time, nothing will stand in our way. 

A good example would be the great depression, when the United States fell into the worst economic slump ever recorded, the only thing that stood before complete national bankruptcy was the human ability to band together and help each other out.

Perhaps the old ones may have created or enkindled us as one last hope to bring order to the Galaxy, unfortunately with the arrival of Tyranids and more and more aggressive attacks from aliens and immaterial creatures the Imperium is quickly loosing its grasp. Mabey there will be a time when humanity is faced with extinction, or the death of the emperor, Humans will band together once again under the leadership of a new emperor (as predicted by the Eldar) to rise up from the ashes and once again restore order to the galaxy.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> Yes you are right, humans are rather weak and puny (even in reality) but when we all come together for a great cause, we can make our goals manifest. What im getting at is humans can do anything if we put our mind to it, and when we all can do this at the same time, nothing will stand in our way.
> 
> A good example would be the great depression, when the United States fell into the worst economic slump ever recorded, the only thing that stood before complete national bankruptcy was the human ability to band together and help each other out.
> 
> Perhaps the old ones may have created or enkindled us as one last hope to bring order to the Galaxy, unfortunately with the arrival of Tyranids and more and more aggressive attacks from aliens and immaterial creatures the Imperium is quickly loosing its grasp. Mabey there will be a time when humanity is faced with extinction, or the death of the emperor, Humans will band together once again under the leadership of a new emperor (as predicted by the Eldar) to rise up from the ashes and once again restore order to the galaxy.


Yes we can, and I can see what your saying. But although humanity as a species can overcome most material obstacles, the immaterial obstacles we cannot. 

We cannot deny or refuse the dark temptations of Chaos, we are utterly helpless before Chaos. The Emperor as I said is the only one protecting us from such depridations. Humanity is no way near the best species to bring order to the galaxy, nor are the Eldar. The best species to bring order to the Galaxy would have to bring order/stability to the warp, there is no other way whilst Chaos exists. These species would be emotionless; which would arguably be the Old Ones themselves.

If the Old Ones didn't create the Lesser Psychic races, its possible that Chaos would never had existed in a strong enough form to be a threat. Although if they didn't create the Psychic Races (Eldar, Orks etc) the C'tan would now rule the galaxy. 



Treewizard648 said:


> Humans will band together once again under the leadership of a new emperor (as predicted by the Eldar)


Huh?!  Can you point me in the direction of this prophecy?


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ................Huh?!  Can you point me in the direction of this prophecy?




I looked it up on the Lexicanum here: (under star child)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Emperor


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> I looked it up on the Lexicanum here: (under star child)
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Emperor


The Eldar havn't predicted the rebirth of the Emperor, or indeed the rise of a new Emperor. 

In that article they are just drawing the comparisons between the Star Child and Ynnead, the God of the Dead.


----------



## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

there is an increasing tendency on this forum to read Lexicanum rather than the rulebooks for background. the site is very good and pointing you in the right direction, but it is nothing in comparison to actually reading the books and WDs that the background appears in. one shouldn't take anything that Lexicanum says as gospel, because it can be edited by anyone, meaning it is not free from personal bias (particularly in regards to internet speculation on the background), which means that it is not the same as that which the studio intended. if you want to know what the studio says the background is, read their material, not Lexicanum (or any of the other GW wikis).


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> there is an increasing tendency on this forum to read Lexicanum rather than the rulebooks for background. the site is very good and pointing you in the right direction, but it is nothing in comparison to actually reading the books and WDs that the background appears in. one shouldn't take anything that Lexicanum says as gospel, because it can be edited by anyone, meaning it is not free from personal bias (particularly in regards to internet speculation on the background), which means that it is not the same as that which the studio intended. if you want to know what the studio says the background is, read their material, not Lexicanum (or any of the other GW wikis).


I think, that's more or less what Child-of-the-Emperor is trying to say with a bit more diplomacy... :grin:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Carnivore said:


> I think, that's more or less what Child-of-the-Emperor is trying to say with a bit more diplomacy... :grin:


It was yes, cheers Carnivore :grin:


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Public ran yes, but the info there is meticulously filtered to make sure the articles hold ground. The article said it came from the "Realm of Chaos" books, thats good enough for me. 


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Realm_of_Chaos


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> Public ran yes, but the info there is meticulously filtered to make sure the articles hold ground.


They are? I've done a lot of work on the Warhammer fantasy lexicanum recently and some people that contribute can literally write what they like, and the senior editors often don't have enough time to scan through all the edits to check them all. This is even more the case on the 40k counter-part, as more people use and edit it. 



Treewizard648 said:


> The article said it came from the "Realm of Chaos" books, thats good enough for me.


In this particular case I believe the article is accurate, however Lexicanum is prone to bias, because it is written and edited by the fan-base. So not only is some information often mis-interpreted or simply incorrect, it is mostly bias aswell!

I mainly use Lexicanum to scan through things quickly, saving me from scanning through my source-books, but I try not to use it as a definate source of information without the back-up of source material


----------



## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

A while ago in the early necron fluff they described about the whole war between the c'tan/necrons and the rest of the universe.

It said something along the lines that the old ones created 3 races to help in the fight, Eldar, Krork, and another race. Eldar were psy to fight the necrons on a level they couldn't fight back on. The Krork were genetic memory so that the ability of war was not lost to them. And for the life of my I cannot remember the 3rd of the big three they created, I do remember that it was a race that I couldn't put a counterpart to in the current 40k universe.

After the war it mentions that the eldar stumbled across a "pre-necron" like race just beginning to evolve but were to war weary and did not have the resources to exterminate the planet. It gave rise to the "mystery" behind the necron pariahs and how humans are the only other species to have the pariah gene. Thus potentially linking humans to a similar beginnings as the original necrons.

I can only guess that humans, evolving naturally, would not be specialised in one fashion as they were not guided. Yeah there would be psy, there would be people who "just get things" (genetic memory), and there would be the potential for an opposite of these traits to appear as well. Acording to the necron background (and a pinch of salt) it points to humanity being one of the few "non-guided evolution" races. Call humanity an abandonded experiment, or even an experiment to see what would happen if left to it's own devices.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

mrrshann618 said:


> A while ago in the early necron fluff they described about the whole war between the c'tan/necrons and the rest of the universe.
> 
> It said something along the lines that the old ones created 3 races to help in the fight, Eldar, Krork, and another race. Eldar were psy to fight the necrons on a level they couldn't fight back on. The Krork were genetic memory so that the ability of war was not lost to them. And for the life of my I cannot remember the 3rd of the big three they created, I do remember that it was a race that I couldn't put a counterpart to in the current 40k universe.
> 
> ...



The worst part about all this is the Imperium's citizens are unaware they are worshiping a c'tan


----------



## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> The worst part about all this is the Imperium's citizens are unaware they are worshiping a c'tan


I don't see where's the link between the Emperor as a person and the C'tan but for a speculated origin... It's as if you'd say Nobel prizes rewards apes because Man shares a link with 'em...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I Found this quote this morning which is relavent and may be of interest:



Necron Codex Page 9 'Shadow Games' said:


> Long ago, Before the Fall, the Mon-Keigh were nothing. They were comical tree-beasts, part of the Eco-System of their world, but with no greater role defined for them by the Old Ones. That was before the God War between the C'tan-led Necrons and the Old Ones, supported by their successor races, had almost consumed the galaxy. In the aftermath of the conflict many worlds were devastated, and it took time to rebuild them. In this Power Vacuum the lesser creations of the Old Ones, such as the Mon-Keigh, developed in unforeseeable ways. Raw, elemental evolution took a hold, turning these noisy but harmless beasts into the life form that now infested a million worlds. The Eldar had let them be, perhaps they were reluctant to harm what little life remained, but others were not. The Devoured Ones had sown a terrible crop in ages past. Now it was growing to fruition and the harvesters were being readied.


This heavily implies that humanity was created by the Old Ones but unfinished so to speak. It also implies that the Necrons/C'tan had some influence on humanities evolution; in the Pariah Gene.


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Carnivore said:


> I don't see where's the link between the Emperor as a person and the C'tan but for a speculated origin... It's as if you'd say Nobel prizes rewards apes because Man shares a link with 'em...


I meant the machine god.......


----------



## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ..........This heavily implies that humanity was created by the Old Ones but unfinished so to speak. It also implies that the Necrons/C'tan had some influence on humanities evolution; in the Pariah Gene.



I KNEW HUMANITY WAS CREATED (or influenced) BY INTELLIGENT DESIGN! 


......now to find out if Humanity really was created by "intelligent design" in reality, but that is a quest best suited outside this forum ........


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> I KNEW HUMANITY WAS CREATED (or influenced) BY INTELLIGENT DESIGN!


It wasn't necessarily directed at you! Just something I found which could have been useful to the thread overall!



Treewizard648 said:


> ......now to find out if Humanity really was created by "intelligent design" in reality, but that is a quest best suited outside this forum ........


I believe we were yes, but indeed thats for another forum!


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

interesting find child, this could also explain why the eldar view us the way they do. of course they hate us because of the heresy and such but we were never really cared for like they were by the old ones yet at the moment we inhabit more worlds then they and if the imperium got off its ass could probably wipe them from the galaxy.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> interesting find child, this could also explain why the eldar view us the way they do. of course they hate us because of the heresy and such but we were never really cared for like they were by the old ones yet at the moment we inhabit more worlds then they and if the imperium got off its ass could probably wipe them from the galaxy.


indeed :good:


----------



## Frederick Destroyer (Jul 28, 2009)

Great find Child.

So if we were made with some psychic potential then there are a few flaws...or at least some things in the lore-in-my-head are mutually exclusive

The "God War" (see Child's post a little up) which happened while the "Mon-Keighs" were still monkeys also tore up the warp right? I don't really have a quote but that idea is thrown around like it is the right cannon, so I believe it.

But (and sadly I don't have a quote for this either. I tend to just accept what others say because they say it in an authoritative way.) The Emperor was born through the shamans WHO WERE HUMAN (read: not monkeys) because the warp was getting [email protected]#$ed up...and by human emotions no less, when of course the warp had already gotten messed up by eldar emotions (read: Slaanesh's coming)

So, in summary, the two errors are:
1.) when was the warp wactified?, And
2.) is the "emp came from Shammies like 40,000 years ago" bit of fluff actually true.

Oh yeah, for once in my life I'm actually going to look for a source from someone. If you don't have a source for your findings then...well, your a poopie face.
Seriously though, please have a quote


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Frederick Destroyer said:


> Great find Child.


 :grin:



Frederick Destroyer said:


> The "God War" (see Child's post a little up) which happened while the "Mon-Keighs" were still monkeys also tore up the warp right?


Well the 'God-War' I presume refers to the War in Heaven. During the War in Heaven the Old Ones created many 'Lesser Races' who could wield the Warp as a weapon (Psychic Races) - This had an unintended consequence in the warp, which started to become restless & Chaotic, the Chaos Gods began to stir and form within the Immaterium. 



Frederick Destroyer said:


> But (and sadly I don't have a quote for this either. I tend to just accept what others say because they say it in an authoritative way.) The Emperor was born through the shamans WHO WERE HUMAN (read: not monkeys) because the warp was getting [email protected]# up...and by human emotions no less, when of course the warp had already gotten messed up by eldar emotions (read: Slaanesh's coming)


Right well the Shaman Background was introduced in the Realm of Chaos books I believe. Although a lot of people still hold this piece of Background on the Emperor to be correct, I believe that GW themselves have since stated that the Emperor's Origins are simply 'Unknown'.

Regardless - The Human Shamans would have been Human yes and not Monkeys  The Emperor's 'birth' occured around 8000BC if memory serves, the War Heaven was a long time before 8000BC. Also the newer background material seems to imply that humanity had little effect on the warp in its infancy, only more recently has humanity collectively had a major effect on the warp. The Older races (Eldar, Orks, and countless other Psychic races created by the Old Ones) were the ones that began to majorily screw over the warp.



Frederick Destroyer said:


> 1.) when was the warp wactified?


You mean when did it become 'Chaotic'? Well it started during the War in Heaven, and resulted in the Enslaver Plague, and the beginnings of the Chaos Gods.



Frederick Destroyer said:


> .) is the "emp came from Shammies like 40,000 years ago" bit of fluff actually true.


A lot of people still hold the Shaman Fluff to be correct. But as I said above to my knowledge GW has stated since that his background is 'Unknown'.


----------

