# Eldar Fire Prism.....best Heavy Support choice



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Of all the H.S. choices in the game, the Fire Prism is probably my favorite. It's only str 9 AP 2 blast, but bounce another Prism off it and now its a str 10 AP 1 blast, or the dispersed i think a str 6 AP 4.
Fact of the matter is, it'll outmatch the Hammerhead most of the time and the Landraider.

I don't like to take Falcons, I dont think you get enough bang for your buck (yes the st 8 ap 2 2 shot pulse laser is nice put lacks penetrative power).

The Walkers are ok v horde but otherwise destroyed on 4+ and a low AV.

WL are good weapon mounts but theres that annoying wraithsight and they arent good in melee. Str 8 helps but with all the anti-armor weps in the game now its useless.

Finally the Batteries I don't like to take because they sacrifice your mobility which you need the most.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I see a lot of fire prisms used but I'm not convinced they're better than falcons. Even twin-linked, that small blast is pretty inaccurate (hits on target about 50% of the time with rerolls) when it comes to shooting vehicles, and it costs you about 300 points worth of tanks to fire 1 strength 10 ap 1 blast. That's not a good buy, especially compared to a 170-point hammerhead that hits 66% of the time.

Personally I prefer Falcons, even though they tend to run a few points higher, and that is because they are great mobile command vehicles. It is nearly impossible to get a farseer out of a falcon where they can use pwoers like doom, guide, and fortune to significantly bolster your army. If you've got a squad of 5 dire avengers in there as well then you have a really tough scoring unit even if you never disembark them, especially when you combine the falcon's holo-fields with a farseer's fortune and hide your falcon behind other vehicles.
The falcon itself really shines as an anti-light armor gunboat (important nowadays in the metagame of rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks.) I like them either with missile launcher and shuriken cannon for hunting light/medium vehicles or infantry or with scatter laser and shuriken cannon for a more pure anti-infantry/light vehicle loadout. The latter especially shines when you've got a farseer aboard with guide, resulting in 2 strength 8 and 7 strength 6 twin-linked shots. That's a mobile hurt-boat right there.

The only thing I really like the fire prisms for nowadays is their ability to put out large blasts. There's nothing like a strength 6 ap 3 blast to make marines go away.

Also, don't count out war walkers. 3 guided scatter laser war walkers put an average of 18 strength 6 hits on something. That's pain right there. That's actually the best ranged anti-infantry output from any unit in the entire game.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Culler makes good points, but I still take 2x Prisms and 1x Falcon in every army I field.

Maybe I'm just freakishly lucky with my Prisms, but I think I miss with one shot per game with them, if that. I don't know if that's me somehow rolling hit after hit after hit (or ~4" of scatter then modded by BS) or if Cullers maths might be slightly out (IIRC rerolling a 5+ is slightly better than a flat 4+, in addition to the chance that you'll only scatter a small amount). They're certainly more reliable than my Falcon who generally only gets Guide for turns 1-2 before the Farseer runs off to lay down the hurt with Bladestorming Avengers. In that time though, he'll normally pop a Rhino or Chimera with his Pulse/Lance combo, giving said Avengers a nice juicy target.

I will outflank Scatter-Walkers on occasion, but only for fun, never competitively.

Combining them does sometimes seem like a waste, but often my games go like:

Turn 1: Combine blasts, nuke Land Raider/Biggest threat transport
Turn 2: Two small blasts or a combined large template on Land Raiders Cargo
Turn 3+: Split up and start moving seperately to stay away from threats while keeping LoS to each other and hunting other threats. Transports/Dreads get a S9 while other foot MEQs get a twinned Large Blast. If one gets shaken, turbo to another position and resume fire next turn.

The only time I really lose them is when they get assaulted by Krak grenades or have Deep Striking Meltas aimed at them. I do love their flexibility.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Culler said:


> ...Even twin-linked, that small blast is pretty inaccurate (hits on target about 50% of the time with rerolls)....
> The only thing I really like the fire prisms for nowadays is their ability to put out large blasts. There's nothing like a strength 6 ap 3 blast to make marines go away.
> 
> Also, don't count out war walkers. 3 guided scatter laser war walkers put an average of 18 strength 6 hits on something. That's pain right there. That's actually the best ranged anti-infantry output from any unit in the entire game.


First thing: Unless my math is way off the hit chance of a twinlinked BS4 blast is 73%. (BS4 blast has 44% chance to hit, and another 44% of the remaining 66% leaves us at 73%)
Its very far from inaccurate, in fact its better then BS4 shooting. This makes both blasts very accurate 

Warwalkers should imho have Shuricannons. They are armoured with Balsawood and should stay cheap. 3 Dual Shuricannon WWs cost 120 pts, 60 less then the Scatterlaser ones and still shoot 18 shots.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> Warwalkers should imho have Shuricannons. They are armoured with Balsawood and should stay cheap. 3 Dual Shuricannon WWs cost 120 pts, 60 less then the Scatterlaser ones and still shoot 18 shots.


In my mind the extra 12" range and extra shots are worth the points you pay. Obviously if you want to squeeze them into a smaller army, you can go with cannons, but you should easily be able to afford Scatters in anything above 1500pts.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

MaidenManiac said:


> First thing: Unless my math is way off the hit chance of a twinlinked BS4 blast is 73%. (BS4 blast has 44% chance to hit, and another 44% of the remaining 66% leaves us at 73%)
> Its very far from inaccurate, in fact its better then BS4 shooting.


Your numbers are right, I just didn't bother to do the math. However, the following statement is a bit off:



MaidenManiac said:


> This makes both blasts very accurate


Both blasts aren't twin-linked, they simply combine to do a single accurate blast. Like you've calculated, they each individually have less than a 50% chance of not deviating (though a deviation of 1" usually keeps the center hole over a target vehicle.) 

Regardless, paying so many points to get a single accurate blast still isn't all that great in my book. I like fire prisms for their anti-infantry and ability to ignore cover by virtue of choosing which tank the blast comes out of. For low point-value games where you can't have 2 or more, I wouldn't recommend them. For mid-point games I can't help but think there has to be a better way. Unfortunately, bright lances are pretty lame, fire dragons have issues with range and surviving, and vibrocannons can only glance, so compared to other ranged anti-tank options in the codex, it's not terrible. I'd still rather hunt light/medium vehicles with effective platforms like falcons and leave the heavy tanks to fire dragons, lucky bright lances, and haywire grenades.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Been a while since I looked at this 

I don't like walkers because, while good weapon mounts, AV 10 all around is a pain.

Personally I don't really like blast templates much unless theyre ord., I always seem to roll an arrow and then high 2D6. I do like the AoE on them though, especially the S6 Ap3 large blast. But I still think the FP should have a single target beam.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> Personally I don't really like blast templates much unless theyre ord., I always seem to roll an arrow and then high 2D6. I do like the AoE on them though, especially the S6 Ap3 large blast. But I still think the FP should have a single target beam.


I prefer the slightly-less-accurate-(sometimes)-but-able-to-kill-half-a-dozen-2+-save-guys-in-one-go shot than a single target one that hits on 3+ but can only kill one thing.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I actually prefer the Night Spinner over the Fire Prism. Such a brilliant gun that can lay waste to everyone including Marines with the rending, stop anything with the Monofiliment Web, and if you need it to it could take out a low av vehicle as well


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

But... the Nightspinner is bad. We play 5th ed now, now 4th. It's no longer about gunlines, it's about mech and things that can keep up with Mech.

Plus... the Fire Prism is hellaciously more killey.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Cyklown said:


> But... the Nightspinner is bad.


Tell that to the Ork player who I took 3 against :laugh:


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Oh yeah the Nightspinner can be pretty nasty. I saw one at my local kill Vulkan and most of the squad that he was attached to through dangerous terrain tests.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

There really is nothing bad about the Night Spinner. Its pretty mobile, killy, and tactical. The only reason I don't use it more is that the people around here don't accept it as a legitimate codex unit... Still Apoc only for them


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Unfortunately it could be a while until there is a new codex. Oh well.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I love how the Dark Reapers have been completely overlooked when in my mind I not only always take them at 1000 points plus but that they are probably the best anti-marine unit out there.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Lawl, Orks. You'd have gotten almost as much millage from a Fire Prism, and it'd be better the bulk of the time. Unless you switch lists depending on who you're facing? If that's the norm there, then by all means. If I could "sideboard" my lists I'd use scorps more.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

@ Stephen_Newman I completely agree about the Dark Reapers, they have to be my favourite aspect warriors. An exarch with a tempest launcher and fast shot absolutely destroys marines.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Marines who are not in a transport or behind cover tend to be in close combat, lessening the effectiveness of the Reapers.

Also, if your opponent isn't smart enough to deal with your Reapers (5 models at best with T3 and 3+/4+) then I don't think you need to worry about taking the most competitive choice, because he clearly isn't the most competitive opponent. :wink:


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, at least they are all 3+ saves.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Cover means jack shit with the tempest launcher. Since it is a barrage weapon it ignores cover saves but only on the top layer. Sadly there can be a bit of scatter using fast shot which is why I use crack shot to ignore all types of cover and reroll those wounds (this is brill!)!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dark Reapers really are the redheaded stepchild of the Eldar Heavy support section. Unless you play against Necrons every other game avoid. 

It's not that they're particularly bad, they're just too expensive and too situational compared to say a Fire Prism which is cheaper and better.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

You, sir, are thinking about the Support Weapon Batteries!


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Styro-J said:


> You, sir, are thinking about the Support Weapon Batteries!


No, no he's not.

He clearly completely excised all knowledge and memory of Support Weapon Batteries from his head. Sometimes traumatic experiences make people do that. Ugh. Such crap.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Styro-J said:


> You, sir, are thinking about the Support Weapon Batteries!


I have a special place in my heart for Support Weapon batteries because I played in 2nd end, when they were good. 

I refuse to acknowledge their awfulness despite all evidence to the contrary.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I actually start giggling when I see weapon support batteries.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

It is that magical sign that one will be clubbing seals today, is it not?

That being say, Vibro's could be good if they weren't so bad. I mean, autoglances are sexy. If they just a) weren't artillery and b) could have 3 actual shots... *grumble*


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I actually use support weapon batteries in my lists, and win games. Last game I won was against Gimmnar Drop Podding wolves.

I should actually get round to writing my Tactica of the Unloved


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Never used batteries.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Back in 4th edition vibrocannon batteries were awesome since glancing hits could actually kill vehicles. Now they're pretty useless.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I actually use support weapon batteries in my lists, and win games. Last game I won was against Gimmnar Drop Podding wolves.
> 
> I should actually get round to writing my Tactica of the Unloved


Well, sure. But winning with bad lists doesn't prove that they aren't bad. I mean, how hard would you stomp them with triple prisms? Prisms are 25 points cheaper, given an optimal loadout, than Vibro's. Unless... are you just using them for the autoglance, and therefore fielding them in sets of two?


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## Araenion (Sep 10, 2010)

Just want to say how Scatter Walkers aren't nearly as squishy as most seem to assume. I regularly play against an Ork BW spam, a balanced SM list and a Necron Destroyer Wing and against Orks or SM they really rarely ever die. Outflanking is your friend, as is 36" range guns. 

The best way SMs can deal with them is send a Rhino with Tactical PF sarge inside to deal with them, or at the very least keep them from shooting. And Orks are usually on the other side of the table by the time Walkers come on trying to catch my Wave Serpents or Fire Prisms. Necrons I just hate facing.

I use dual Prisms + War walkers and I swear by that HS combo.


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