# Eldar Swooping Hawks Tactica???



## ThePelt (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't know if its just me but it seems like swoopings hawks are just a huge waste of points in my books. Yes they can fly out and fly back in, while dropping a blast plate, but when it comes down to it, they suck at shooting and close combat isn't really their thing either. Any suggestions on how these units are used effectively (if any) would be awsome!

Thanks!


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

*looks around the room pointlessly*. Well it's one of those things where people either love them or hate them. Me personally, I do love them, but I don't think they're worth what they are. If they were worth like the same as an aspect warrior, or two points more then it would be okay.

They're not really that good against anything else but stuff like nids or IG or orks. Their flying template is actually a pretty sweet move. But again, not really worth the points. Haywire Gernades * drools* my key to killing main tanks and monoliths. I think this topic should be debated. Hmmm we should have a debated topic every weekly, like the versus thing Galahad does.


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

i have to say i did hate hawks, but thn consider that with sunrifle and lasblasters, sheer amount of ap5 shots they can put out will scare a few guard players. Also the fact the move literally like the wind makes them awesomely quick. also the template is ap5 so dropping it on guard will rly start chewing thu units. So yh as individuals they do well against horde light armoured infantry, but yh, to agree with above post haywire grenades really are aweosme for taking on tanks, so to sum....they kill guard infantry...and guard tanks with ease..............yh these are guard killers


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## mgtymouze (Dec 7, 2007)

I just started playing eldar so I don't know how effective this would be. I was planning on using my swooping hawks as a support role for either my howling banshees or Dire avengers. Keep them behind cover and then jump forward, shoot, and assault the same squad my other unit is going to charge. 

Having played Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines, I do see that my tactics will have to change with the eldar. They really don't seem as forgiving as either of the other two armies. Also they seem like they are going to require ALOT more finesse to play.


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## Bodyguard666 (Apr 14, 2008)

I usually use my hawks to jump and drop. I will, however, occasionally drop in behind a weakened unit and assault them. I do this to Grey Knights led by a justicar if they have 3 or less troops left. i have a 5 reg/1 exarch squad and this almost always gets them out of the way.

and a q. what are the saves for gaunts and genies?


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## Danger1887 (Jun 11, 2008)

I like swooping hawks. A unit of 5 with an exarch with sun rifle can hit with 14 Str:3 Ap:5 shots. They hit on 3's too, so come in handy because your opponent won't really suspect a unit of 5 to be that good. Also a squad of 10 can shoot out 24 shots, which can annihilate units.


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

I should be melting your face off for saying that about the hawks, but i was once like you, didn't see the point in them, but add the fact that they can hit vehicles on a 4+ with intercept and their haywire grenades are the bomb against tanks, but what sold me was the fact they can mvoe 24" a turn yeh thats rite up to 24" thats crazy and running 24" to assualt a monolith then taking it down with haywire grenades has to be the funniest thing
the look onyour opponents face priceless 
opponent: wait, so they just moved 24 inches and the scored 2 penertrating and 3 glancing hits against my super tank thingy without it being able to put off a shot.

It's making me drool thinkin about it
weird, yes, unheard of, no
lol

peace out:victory:

@Bodyguard666: armour save for gaunts and genestealers are 5+, I'm pretty sure.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

whats the best unit size then for them then and wat should i give the exarch?


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Well, I like them, especially for the monolith killing capabilities (yes indeed drool). However, I've always much preffered warp spiders, even when they lost their haywire grenades angry. The strength 6 guns have always been much better for me, but that's me exclusively fighting T4 troops. 
I must say though, for me, skyleap has always been a necessity for me. Never has an exarch power proved more useful (although hit and run with the warp spiders or bladestorm with avengers comes close).

An ideal squad for me is what you get in the box - six including an exarch. Model a sunrifle (you _need_ the sunrifle) and honestly, give 'em both powers, although skyleap is not a necessity, intercept most certainly is.


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## dameg (Aug 13, 2008)

is skyleap really worth 15p?


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## maeglom (Aug 9, 2008)

I like to keep them in a falcon for the first turn rather than deep striking them. I drop them out at the beginning of the second turn and since the falcon usually goes for a rush, it leads to a WTF moment when the hawks just zip over to a tank then sky leap next turn after leaving a smoldering hull. Also skyleap is totally worth it.


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## Bhellium (Dec 9, 2008)

Points-wise, Hawks are under performing. Enjoyment level is usually high, especially when you move 24" and/or waste an armor 14 tank. Beautiful models, I always use them because of the model and I like to have fun terrorizing my opponents. 

I run 2 sets of 10 Hawks each attached to an Autarch with wings. everything comes in on a 2+ starting on turn 2!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

The way I look at Swooping Hawks is basically support/bodyguard for the Exarch or Baharroth; the Exarch can get some nasty pew-pews and Baharroth is just plain nasty.

The Ex can get a hawk's talon, which is antiMEQ, or a sunrifle, which is antiNid. The Hawks themselves don't really suck at shooting per se (with a BS of 4), and their firing what is basically suped-up lasgun, which is by no means a bad thing. The most effective way (at lest IMHO) to use Hawks is to use a lot of them (I typically field three maxed units, which ends up being ~250ptsx3) if I field them at all. Unless you get some really bad rolls over and over, Hawks preform pretty well. Use them as a hit-and-run shooty unit and for God's sake stay out of range of anything with more than two shots.

The beauty of the lasblaster is that it has a rapid-fire weapon's range combined with the utility of an assault weapon (ironically). Play to its strength.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

maeglom said:


> I like to keep them in a falcon for the first turn rather than deep striking them. I drop them out at the beginning of the second turn and since the falcon usually goes for a rush, it leads to a WTF moment when the hawks just zip over to a tank then sky leap next turn after leaving a smoldering hull. Also skyleap is totally worth it.


Swooping Hawks actaully count as Jump Infantry, and you can't put Jump Infantry inside transports. Sorry.

BRB pp. 66 "Only infantry models may embark in transports (it is worth specifying that this does not include jump infantry), unless a Codex book 
specifically states otherwise.

To the best of my knowledge, the Eldar Codex doesn't specifically provide Swoop Hawks the ability to ride in a transport.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Daneel 2.0 is correct.

Also, Hawks are bollocks. They are the points of 2 Sisters of Battle, but they're basically a Guardsman with a Jump Pack, and a Haywire grenade. Complete and utter bullshit, like most of the Fast Attack section in the Codex. Spiders are worth 2 Hawks each, and, Galus, Baharroth is not only the worst Phoenix Lord, he's probably the worst any Phoenix Lord has ever been! 5 points more than Maugan Ra my arse. I can't believe the Hawks are getting such a good press in this thread...there's a reason they never feature in competitive army lists...If you like Haywires so much, take Wraithguard - they're better.


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## SirShibby (Jan 7, 2009)

I was so mad when I got the new Eldar codex and couldn't find my beloved haywire grenades anywhere that I started this thread http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27204 . 

So after much debate over the haywires, I went haywire and produced this list http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28385

I've actually built the army and used it vs nids and was quite surprised at how well it fared.

Hope this helps you guys out.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm afraid, having read both threads, I still don't see Hawks as anything other than a complete waste of points. But, since I bought a box before reading the Codex through the dayIi bought it, eventually I'll get around to building and using them - there remains a chance I'll change my mind.


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## Zoshonel (Dec 10, 2008)

*My input...*

I do not believe the hawks are nearly worth the points. I prefer spiders who can deepstrike (for free now) and shoot the back of vehicles...

That being said, I do use them in my 'ard boyz list. They wreak havoc upon all vehicles, as said, reducing liths, LRs, and Soulgrinders to wreckage. I do only use 7 but that seems like enough. They are not worth the points for dropping the bomb pack. Personally I do not even have them deepstrike, when you DeepStrike you are painting a huge target on them or wasting 2 turns and DeepStriking into friendly territory. 

Baharroth is by far one of the worse Pheonix lords, he adds nothing to his unit and is incredibly expensive for it. Hit and Run is USELESS for the Hawks.


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## Akumatsu (Jun 23, 2009)

*Swooping Hawks*

Some of what I will say has already been heard but its for the purpose of argument.

Swooping Hawks are better at killing low toughness models than Warp Spiders. They also have the ability to kill tanks better than Warp Spiders if given grenades and Intercept. I normally do not take the Exarch when fighting low toughness armies unless they are tank heavy. Save yourself some points. When taken against high toughness armies that is when I use the Exarch and give him Sky leap. Most MEQ armies tend to ignore the Swooping Hawks because their weapon is puny against them, which is where you drop the template on their heads, rinse and repeat to some pretty devastating effect.

Now Warp Spiders are great at armies with light vehicles and high toughness. They have the same effect as a Scatter laser in that they rely on volume of shots and enemies failing saves. Warping through thin terrain that blocks LOS while shooting then popping back pisses people off and its fun to see their faces because there is nothing they can do about it. And like someone mentioned before dropping behind a tank and lighting it up is also great fun. Warp Spiders are also good at holding enemies in place. Give the Exarch Withdraw and charge the unit. Then when your ready, break from the unit and unleash fury on them or prevent them from getting an objective.

Neither unit is bad at what they are meant to do, it all depends on who your facing, what you give them, and how you use them.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

This is not a tactica so I've moved it to tactics.

The basic rule goes, tacticas are some kind of tactical lessons meant to help other people, not to seek help. If there is a question mark in your thread, it is not a tactica.

If there are three question marks in the title of your thread, we cannot help you. Seek psychiatric advice.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Akumatsu said:


> Swooping Hawks are better at killing low toughness models than Warp Spiders.


First, welcome to Heresy.  But, slow down here sparky. What have you got to back up this frankly outrageous claim? They fire the same number of shots, and have the same BS. vs T3, Hawks wound on a 4, vs T4 they wound on 5. Spiders wound both on a 2. 



> They also have the ability to kill tanks better than Warp Spiders if given grenades and Intercept.


Again, no. They have one attack each, that always hits on a 4+. Spiders have 2 Shots at the rear armour that hit on a 3+. Only tanks with AV12+ on the rear, eg, a Monolith, or Land Raider, is harder to kill with Spiders.



> Most MEQ armies tend to ignore the Swooping Hawks because their weapon is puny against them,


Not quite. Most MEQ armies ignore Hawks because whatever else you have is more dangerous, because Frag Grenades from the packs can't hurt a Rhino, and because those puny T3 paper dolls cost just 3 points less than a Sternguard!




> Neither unit is bad at what they are meant to do, it all depends on who your facing, what you give them, and how you use them.


Spiders aren't bad at what they do. They're not quite good, but they're okay. Hawks suck like an Emperor's Children fancy dress party. I hope you can provide something more to debate on the issue.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Hawks are great.
I personally don't like Rubber Hawking (sky leaping repeatedly), it's lame and inefficient for the cost.

The fact that they're jump infantry mean they can keep the foe at gun's length, and harass them with relative impunity.
Chances are they'll be able to fire back, but not as well as you, and you will usually benefit from a cover save, seeing as you're very maneuverable.


As people have said, they destroy vehicles easily, one of the best weapons against Monoliths.
And now that Valkyries are so common, they'll be even MORE useful.

Oh, so you want to move 12", and fire 2 bolter pie plates aye?
Eat Haywire!
If a Valkyrie is in range with its Missile Pods, you're basically guaranteed to be in range with your 19-24" charge.

If you give an Exarch a power sword, they can be a fairly effective unit in melee too.
You jump towards them fire probably 16 shots (I'd always take a full squad), kill a few Marines with that; 1 or 2.
Charge them, attacking first (you have plasma grenades, cover is ignored), Exarch kills maybe 1, normals get like, 12 attacks, hit with 8, wound with 2 or 3, 1 or 2 dead from failed saves.
So that's 4 dead so far, and 2 in melee.
They attack back, hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+, given, they'll probably win the combat, unless you had more guns firing at them (very likely), but even then they won't sweep you, because you're I6


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Even of you get these optimistic 4 kills, 6 Marines is 7A back - 3.5 hits, so probably 3 wounds, 2 Hawks die. Draw combat. You lose the manoeuvrability and firepower - then next turn when you don't have the charge bonus - Exarch may kill one, they'll still kill 2, you're down to 6 guys, so they shoot 2 down while you flee, (not hard) and you don't regroup. Still not working in your favour, especially since that unit of yours costs 232 minimum, and the Tacticals you charge probably cost 170, since I assumed no Fist...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Even of you get these optimistic 4 kills, 6 Marines is 7A back - 3.5 hits, so probably 3 wounds, 2 Hawks die. Draw combat. You lose the manoeuvrability and firepower - then next turn when you don't have the charge bonus - Exarch may kill one, they'll still kill 2, you're down to 6 guys, so they shoot 2 down while you flee, (not hard) and you don't regroup. Still not working in your favour, especially since that unit of yours costs 232 minimum, and the Tacticals you charge probably cost 170, since I assumed no Fist...


Well you would shoot them with other things first.
Like a handy STAR CANNON!
Love those things :3

Anyway, I was just saying the Power weapon makes a sometimes useful opportunity weapon.
Although I suppose that's entirely contrary to the Eldar tactics...
Ok, you're better off with a Sun rifle


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

...:laugh: Starcannons also suck...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> ...:laugh: Starcannons also suck...


How do Stacannon suck?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Stupidly overcosted, only AP2, can only be carried by BS3 troopers, only 2 shots at BS3. 
An inferior weapon to EML, ShuriCannon, ScatLas, and Bright lance.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Stupidly overcosted, only AP2, can only be carried by BS3 troopers, only 2 shots at BS3.
> An inferior weapon to EML, ShuriCannon, ScatLas, and Bright lance.


On Wave Serpents they kick ass man.
And Bright Lances are WAY more expensive, although yes they're amazing against vehicles.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

10 points, t-l, on a Serp. 5 in a Guardian Squad. (As if!) Not that much of a cost extra - Serps need to hunt the threats to themselves, and Lances do that better. Not only vehicles, Lance hurts MCs better too. For the price they are, SCs should be 3 shots still, or AP1. Either way, it'd be a choice, atm it's a no-brainer, just like it was last 'Dex (although in their favour then)


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I still like them, having 2 around in Guardian squads would put pressure on Terminators.
Then again, so would Wraith Guard.


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## Zoshonel (Dec 10, 2008)

*So...*

TKE what do you recommend to take out LRs and Liths, in say the 'Ard Boyz tourney? I know someone who will try to use 5-6 LRs in his list. I know its an overexageration, but still. Using all you BLs a turn is so fruitless IMO. Hawks are totally overpriced, I agree, but they do the job better than anything else in the entire tabletop. Unless of course you have some better stuff. BLs are great, but expensive and a 1 shot. At least you hit with a 4 and auto glance, which can end up wrecking in one turn, and no chance of explosion.

I am just saying that Hawks do have their niche, albeit a very very tiny one in a deep dark crevice in the corner.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Fire dragons and bright lances are enough. You do also have access to things like the avatar, wraithlords and so on that can kill a tank and then not immediately die.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Are War walkers with Bright lances a good investment?
Sure they're a bit fragile (ok, more than a bit), but they're powerful!
90 points for a walker with 2 BL?
Awesome.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

90 points for a BS3 WW, with 2 S8 AP2 shots at 36", that dies if anything better than a Grot Blasta targets it, or 5 Fire Dragons with 5 S8 AP1 shots at 12", for 80 points. No contest. MechDar all the way.

Zoshonel - in 'Ard boyz, points aren't so much of a problem, so I'd have 5 WraithGurad and a DestructLock in a t-l Lance Serp. Serp pops the LR, WG nuke the fridge...I mean, contents.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> 90 points for a BS3 WW, with 2 S8 AP2 shots at 36", that dies if anything better than a Grot Blasta targets it, or 5 Fire Dragons with 5 S8 AP1 shots at 12", for 80 points. No contest. MechDar all the way.
> 
> Zoshonel - in 'Ard boyz, points aren't so much of a problem, so I'd have 5 WraithGurad and a DestructLock in a t-l Lance Serp. Serp pops the LR, WG nuke the fridge...I mean, contents.


I barely understood most of that post, but I think I managed to decipher most of it correctly.
Anyway, so what IS a good long range anti-vehicle outfit?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

See Ard Boyz list I just posted.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I believe the whole expression is 'Jump the shark and nuke the fridge' ?

something that Hawks can do quite well up until the 'nuking the fridge' part...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Orochi said:


> I believe the whole expression is 'Jump the shark and nuke the fridge' ?
> 
> something that Hawks can do quite well up until the 'nuking the fridge' part...


I'm not sure what that mean.
But I'm assuming it means that their big, flashy, colourful wings are compensating for a significant lack of firepower


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Jumping the shark is a Happy Days reference. Surely you've seen the fridge being nuked in 'Indiana Jones gets sodomised by Lucas&Spielberg' ? Most ludicrous scene in a film ever. I've seen better storytelling on Channel 5 after 11pm...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Jumping the shark is a Happy Days reference. Surely you've seen the fridge being nuked in 'Indian Jones gets sodomised by Lucas&Spielberg' ? Most ludicrous scene in a film ever. I've seen better storytelling on Channel 5 after 11pm...


O_.
I think I'm going to hide now.
Movie director sodomy is NOT cool.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Check out South Park episode about it - :laugh:


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

starting to get off topic? 

and anyway that's not cool...

My friend got raped in Peru...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Styro-J said:


> starting to get off topic?
> 
> and anyway that's not cool...
> 
> My friend got raped in Peru...


Well the discussion is pretty much resolved.

That sucks, really really bad, but no-one actually made a joke about rape.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Yeah, I was just kinda kidding... Another South Park joke along the same lines... Oh well, no worries!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

:laugh: Well, I haven't seen that one, or forgot it. Glad we didn't offend you, anyway


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## Love XV8 (Jun 16, 2009)

Can they move 24" and then assault 24"!?! :shok: Jesus! As a tau player that would kill me, since nothing of mine, exept the kroots, can fight in cc. or did I get that wrong? 48" a turn seems too extream to me..


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Love XV8 said:


> Can they move 24" and then assault 24"!?! :shok: Jesus! As a tau player that would kill me, since nothing of mine, exept the kroots, can fight in cc. or did I get that wrong? 48" a turn seems too extream to me..


To put it bluntly, where the *fuck* did you get this from?


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## Tombking (Jan 5, 2010)

i was going to post about hawks but this thread is getting silly  

lets just say 
hawks = good (kill tanks)
southpark = good 
rape = usualy bad

sol


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Pro Necro-ing.

STOP IT!


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Love XV8 said:


> Can they move 24" and then assault 24"!?! :shok: Jesus! As a tau player that would kill me, since nothing of mine, exept the kroots, can fight in cc. or did I get that wrong? 48" a turn seems too extream to me..


I think you got it wrong there. 

They can move 12" from their wings (which are basically like jet packs), they can fleet up to a maximum of 6", then they can charge a normal 6", which is the maximum that the average infantry model/unit can charge.


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## Love XV8 (Jun 16, 2009)

Winterous said:


> To put it bluntly, where the *fuck* did you get this from?


I guess I read it wrong, but SpaNNerZ wrote this:
"...but what sold me was the fact they can mvoe 24" a turn yeh thats rite up to 24" thats crazy and running 24" to assualt a monolith then taking it down with haywire grenades has to be the funniest thing.
simply the *and* run 24"

Though, thanks to Steel Nathan.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Love XV8 said:


> I guess I read it wrong, but SpaNNerZ wrote this:
> "...but what sold me was the fact they can mvoe 24" a turn yeh thats rite up to 24" thats crazy and running 24" to assualt a monolith then taking it down with haywire grenades has to be the funniest thing.
> simply the *and* run 24"
> 
> Though, thanks to Steel Nathan.


Aah yes, makes sense.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

yeah I was doing the math in my head and asking where did he get 48", but then rereading I discovered where the confusion came from.

Anyway eventhough I haven't tried the Hawks as of yet, I can see where they fall under the can kill vehicles better thing. Yes Warp Spiders have the S6 giving them a maximum kill range of AV12, but they can't kill anything higher than that, so Monoliths and LRs can breathe easy. Another advantage of the Hawks is they can kill tanks on either far side of the board. So if an IG player has one Battle Tank on one side of the board and another on the other side of say a 6' long table only the Swooping Hawks can get rid of them both in one game, whereas as fast as the Warpies are I doubt they could pull that one off. Slight advantage I know, but still an advantage.

However I do agree they are a bit overpriced in my opinion. I mean a full unit of ten with no upgrades is what 260 pts or something like that? Lot of points for a unit that can easily get worn down and run off the table before they get even a hint of that points wise back.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

VanitusMalus said:


> However I do agree they are a bit overpriced in my opinion. I mean a full unit of ten with no upgrades is what 260 pts or something like that? Lot of points for a unit that can easily get worn down and run off the table before they get even a hint of that points wise back.


210 actually, but yes, they're still fairly costly for what they do.


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

Swooping Hawks Tactica

1. paint nicely

2. put on shelf

3. leave there

for points cost against what they can dish out/survivability they just don't have a place

unless ofc you know the composition of your opponent and have points spare or no other models available...


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