# Vulkan Lives *Spoilers* (this does not sound good)



## MontytheMighty

Guys...I'm gonna be pretty annoyed if 

Vulkan is dead


> Someone can fill in the major gaps, I literally skimmed the book as it didn't draw me in. The key points are...
> 
> The entire Vulkan sections are written kind of in a first person perspective. This is important for the end.
> 
> Konrad places Vulkan in a giant maze, Vulkan gets to the middle after much taunting, sees his fancy hammer which is capable of teleporting Vulkan away behind a force field. Konrad takes the bait of Vulkan goading him about him being a pussy and during sparring on Terra says he was holding back and so they fight. Vulkan smashes him in to the hammer force field to release it. Konrad taunts him saying that dampeners will stop him escaping with the teleportation device.
> 
> Vulkan kicks the **** out of Konrad, who actually seems to be happy. Vulkan deduces that Konrad has realised he's gone *********** crazy and so wants to die so he doesn't kill him. Vulkan taunts him one last time to say he could always have teleported away, his device was more powerful. Does so.
> 
> Book continues with the bits I didn't enjoy of the Space Marines fighting. Salamanders get battered. Erebus has become close to a daemon.
> 
> Last two pages of the book are a first person description of a figure falling in space, having their eyes boil in their sockets, having their skin and muscles melt away and their blackened skeleton falling towards a planet.
> 
> "Vulkan dies".
> 
> Then you get to the afterword where the author basically says that the title was misleading but someone else can take up the mantle of what happens. Suggesting that somewhere along the lines I've missed something that suggests Vulkan doesn't die. But where could he possibly have teleported to when the heretics have done so much damage?





> I assume one of two things. 1. They are going to retcon it so that the teleport works? and 2. That they are willing to ignore that two page ending in the future.
> 
> It seemed pretty black and white to me, after all there was nowhere for him to jump to?! Considering he has a massive story tied to the Salamanders after the heresy of leaving artefacts, I find it a bit odd to recton it to kill him in this fashion. More like they dreamt up the title and twist and didn't put any thought in to the fact that they just killed one of the Primarchs and retconned a good chunk of post heresy space marine action



Oh dear me...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

As if the entire premise of a Primarch being trapped in a giant maze during the most devastating civil war in human history wasn't bad enough...


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## Lord of the Night

> I assume one of two things. 1. They are going to retcon it so that the teleport works? and 2. That they are willing to ignore that two page ending in the future.
> 
> It seemed pretty black and white to me, after all there was nowhere for him to jump to?! Considering he has a massive story tied to the Salamanders after the heresy of leaving artefacts, I find it a bit odd to recton it to kill him in this fashion. More like they dreamt up the title and twist and didn't put any thought in to the fact that they just killed one of the Primarchs and retconned a good chunk of post heresy space marine action





Ok what the hell?? Who wrote this? Because whoever did clearly thinks that the Black Library writers are idiots. Do they really think that if they didn't have some kind of plan for those spoilers that they would have allowed it to be added in at all? Just because Nick Kyme is an editor doesn't mean he can get away with it, another editor would have told him no if they didn't think it was a good idea that can lead to somewhere interesting.

I think that is the key problem with how people view the Heresy series. We know how it ends and enough key events that we can piece together a relatively accurate timeline of what happened, but enough blank spots exist to have a lot of information added in. I'd estimate that without the Heresy series we are actually aware of a little less than 50% of events in the Heresy. But people don't like a lot of the new stuff that has been added because they can't see how this new stuff will lead to the ending that we all know is coming, and because they can't figure it out they assume that the Black Library authors are just making it up as they go along rather than thinking that perhaps the guys writing this have an endgame in mind and are aware of things that I am not, as a benefit of being in the High Lords meetings that we hear about but never get to learn what goes on in them.

When it comes to the Heresy I maintain two rules. I expect to have my expectations turnd on their heads. And I trust that the authors know what they are doing and that everything, including what those spoilers have told us, has a purpose and leads to the finale.

As for the spoilers themselves, interesting. I can't wait to read the book, i'll withhold my full opinion until then but for now that does sound very interesting and definitely a game-changer, but I do not think any retcons are coming. The authors are better than that.


LotN


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## Anakwanar

> Lord of the Night -
> As for the spoilers themselves, interesting. I can't wait to read the book, i'll withhold my full opinion until then but for now that does sound very interesting and definitely a game-changer, but I do not think any retcons are coming. The authors are better than that.


 Ehem, Lordi you are for a biggest disappointment of your life about game-changer thingy. No, Nick Kyme is not 'better than that'. What i want to know - WHO and WHY, has given him HH to write.
I dont know whose artifacts salamanders are searching for at W40K, due to the latest events in Vulkan Lives.


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## kickboxerdog

personally i think this is just the start to the bigger picture when it comes to vulkan and whats happening to him.


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## bobss

I'll wait for a few more _reviews_ before formulating a proto-opinion, but...

... it seems like another original idea that is pretty miss - be it an integral issue or a matter of execution. At least the Cabal/Shadow Crusade/Imperium Secundus storylines have been top notch.

We'll see. I might get_ Brotherhood of the Storm_ with what remains of my Heresy budget. :drinks:


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## Lord of the Night

Anakwanar said:


> Ehem, LotN you are for the biggest disappointment of your life about that game-changer thingy. No, Nick Kyme is not 'better than that'. What I want to know - WHO and WHY, has given him HH to write.


Even if I am disappointed it will definitely not be the biggest disappointment of my life, that goes to the time I wasted reading half the _Sword of Truth_ series. And as i've said repeatedly elsewhere I like Nick Kyme, I liked _Fall of Damnos_ quite a bit and I really enjoyed the _Tome of Fire_ trilogy. So unlike others just because Kyme wrote this novel doesn't mean I will automatically hate it.


LotN


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## Wusword77

I'd buy into this, except that the SM codex states Vulkan vanished 7000 and more years ago.

And there is actually 0 point in saying that if they meant he vanished 10000 years ago.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

To be honest though, I wouldn't mind if Vulkan did die. A dull and boring Primarch whose image has not been helped by the author attempting to portray him...



Lord of the Night said:


> But people don't like a lot of the new stuff that has been added because they can't see how this new stuff will lead to the ending that we all know is coming, and because they can't figure it out they assume that the Black Library authors are just making it up as they go along rather than thinking that perhaps the guys writing this have an endgame in mind and are aware of things that I am not, as a benefit of being in the High Lords meetings that we hear about but never get to learn what goes on in them.


That is not the reason I (and I don't get the impression it's the reason why others) take issue with the series. I don't question how the new lore will fit in with the established, that's not an issue whatsoever. The issue is when we are fed absolute shite plots and shite novels.



Lord of the Night said:


> ...and because they can't figure it out they assume that the Black Library authors are just making it up as they go along...
> 
> ...but I do not think any retcons are coming. The authors are better than that.


The Heresy authors don't have a great track-record when it comes to these things I'm afraid, the series is littered with mistakes, omissions, inconsistency and lore-changes. However, they do seem much more organised now than they were years ago.



bobss said:


> ... it seems like another original idea that is pretty miss - be it an integral issue or a matter of execution. At least the Cabal/Shadow Crusade/Imperium Secundus storylines have been top notch.


Wholeheartedly agree.



Wusword77 said:


> I'd buy into this, except that the SM codex states Vulkan vanished 7000 and more years ago.
> 
> And there is actually 0 point in saying that if they meant he vanished 10000 years ago.


The authors wouldn't restrict themselves in terms of a novel's plot simply because of a figure, given in passing, in a codex. Vulkan vanishing 7k years ago rather than 10k years ago is hardly an integral part of the lore. Also, as far as we are aware, BL doesn't have a hand in codex-writing. For example: AD-B had to rewrite parts of _The Emperor's Gift_ when _Codex: Grey Knights_ was released.


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## MontytheMighty

I like the fleshing out of the Heresy. 

I love it when skilled BL authours try to elaborate on and expand those previously untouched or barely touched events of the Heresy. I don't like it when they contradict previously established lore unless said lore is ridiculous and deserves to be retconned. 

Vulkan is 

supposed to survive the Heresy. Now it appears that he's dead? I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see the point of killing him off like this.
 

I'm also not a blind Nick Kyme hater. I enjoyed _Fall of Damnos_...but everything else he has written (_Promethean Sun_, I'm looking at you) has been utter garbage.

EDIT: Oh dear, it's starting to get whackier...





> No. I think you will find he teleported into the upper atmosphere of a planet and 'dies' as he plummets to the surface. After surviving all that Kruze has thrown at him (beheading, stabbing, starvation, electrocution, vacuum of space), I don't think burning up in the atmosphere will stop him for long. However I think the general jist of the book is that Vulcan is immortal and can only be killed somehow with the fulgurite.
> 
> 
> Overall I was surprised by the book as I was expecting some rubbish as Kyme isn't my favourite BL author. There are some fantastic ideas in the book but I found the jumping between third person and first person and the flashbacks not a smooth experiance. Nick seems to have stepped away from his comic book style of writing which made the book easier to read and I think is the main reason why people generally don't enjoy some of his work (I really hated Fall of Damnos). Hopefully he will be able to improve again with his next book as he seems a really nice bloke in person and seems to get the 30K/40K IP.





> Makes him a bit of a bastard to be able to live forever and come back from anything only to wait 1,000 years after the Heresy and then disappear. Considering everything is about to enter meltdown in 40k you think he'd have to make a comeback.
> 
> I think I'd have preferred him to have been killed at retconned. Being immortal and immune to death makes him an absolute dick for just up and leaving. He should be at the forefront of every battle.





> I'm not actually sure how to feel about this then, on the one hand I actually want him to die because it opens up the possibility of other Primarch dying. However on the other hand I think Vulkan would be the wrong primarch to do this too. Killing off someone insignificant to the 40k setting like Russ or Corax (Sorry SW and RG fans, just my opinion.) would be a better choice than Vulkan. Thanks for the info though, this does admittedly fit in perfectly with older background. Afterall didn't everyone think Vulkan was dead until he magically re-appeared at the start of the Scouring? With this event everyone will think that Vulkan truely is dead with him failing burning alive through the atmosphere. Which gives him time to start dotting his relics around the galaxy. Hats off to Nick to producing such a smooth way of integrating this into the story.
> 
> But aren't all the Primarch immortal to an extent? To be fair failing through the atmosphere burning alive seems like the sort of thing a Primarch growing up on a firey deathworld could survive. So I don't think he's immune to death anymore than any other primarch. It certinally doesn't make him any more of a dick than Corax for making cringy literacy references and Russ for getting abit drunk and stumbling into the Eye of Terror. You could also say the Lion was a dick for getting the Watchers in the Dark to read him bedtime stories rather than fighting. (For the record I don't hate the RG and SW for anyone thinking that.)





> I think the things that happen to him pretty much say he is immortal but I think the process is starting to unhinge him as I think his mind can only cope with so many deaths before it starts breaking apart. Personally I think he will recover from his death at the end of the book but would have lost his memory and either be some kind of 'beast' lurking in the mountains/forest/etc attacking the locals or he would have somehow intergrated himself into a society)


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## Khorne's Fist

I think the biggest indicator that Vulkan survives is that Kyme himself in his Sallies novels has stated that Vulkan was around after the Heresy. I may be wrong but I think in the third one Vulkan He'Stan mentions the circumstances of Vulkan going off on his quest. It's one thing if another author messes up his fluff, but if Kyme does it himself, I think he'd have reached a new low.


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## Cruxyh

From the things posted, I suspect this is just BL authors screwing with readers their heads, as they should. I may actually have to pick this one up at one point, because it does sound like an entertaining read.


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## TheReverend

Do any of you guys remember the story where the Emporer's Children basically kidnapped Fulgrim and tortured him because they believed he was a daemon? They burned one of his feet right off with a welding torch and it basically grew back as perfect as it was before. 

Just because a Primarch has the skin melted from thier bones doesn't mean they are dead. They are made of more than just flesh and blood (Magnus loses his body completely existing as aether). I think they're like witches and vampires; you can only kill them by removing thier head (and even then I bet if they had stuck Manus's head back on his shoulders the wound would have healed...)


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## Anakwanar

> From the things posted, I suspect this is just BL authors screwing with readers their heads, as they should. I may actually have to pick this one up at one point, because it does sound like an entertaining read.


You do understand that the prose is bad and the style is awful - it is better (but by a little) margin from Promethean Son. You do understand that first and third person style running like a wild crazy coyote and is hard to read?


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## March of Time

Anakwanar said:


> You do understand that the prose is bad and the style is awful - it is better (but by a little) margin from Promethean Son. You do understand that first and third person style running like a wild crazy coyote and is hard to read?


I liked Promethean Sun,So I'm really looking forward to Vulkan Lives.


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## MontytheMighty

TheReverend said:


> Just because a Primarch has the skin melted from thier bones doesn't mean they are dead.


Yeah...but the spoilers indicate that 

Vulkan is a blackened skeleton after atmospheric entry. If a primarch can regenerate from being burned to a blackened skeleton, I don't see why Ferrus's head doesn't just keep talking...at least Ferrus's brain is still intact


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## Marcoos

Anakwanar said:


> You do understand that the prose is bad and the style is awful - it is better (but by a little) margin from Promethean Son. You do understand that first and third person style running like a wild crazy coyote and is hard to read?


You do understand that this is your opinion?

Personally speaking, I didn't find it hard to read at all. I would let others make their own mind up.


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## Lord of Ruin

If Vulkan dies and keeps coming back then i wonder if his abilitie is not too different from that displayed by the Perpetuals. Rising from the ashes has a nice ring to it considering its Vulkan a primarch born on a planet of fire and lava.

Personally i cant wait for this one, as i enjoyed Promethean Sun it did a good job of introducing Vulkan!


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## piemelke

and what about Dorn, he is a skeleton ?


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## Protoss119

inb4 something like this happens:

"Vulkan, Primarch. A man barely alive.
Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology (right?).
We have the capability to build the galaxy's first bionic Primarch.
Vulkan will be that Primarch. Better than he was before. Faster, stronger, better."

-intro to _The Six Million Dollar Primarch_, revived after the previous developers tried to make Sanguinius the Bionic Primarch and were declared _Excommunicate Traitoris_, and banned from Imperial broadcasting after its developers were declared _Excommunicate Traitoris_ in 224.M37


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## TheReverend

I guess the thing I'm saying is that as long as the primarch is in one piece they should be able to regenerate. Manus's head is separated from his heart, so he's dead (like a vampire, which can also regenerate unless you take it's head).

Dorn's hand wouldn't just spawn another Dorn like the theory that chopping a worm in half gives you two worms...


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## Words_of_Truth

I've been slowly losing interest in the HH novels, still not got Mark of Calth, but if this turns out to be true, I think it may make my interesting die a hell lot more.


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## mal310

Oh great, another character that dies and then comes back from the dead (probably). Well thats bloody original in this series!


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## MontytheMighty

TheReverend said:


> I guess the thing I'm saying is that as long as the primarch is in one piece they should be able to regenerate. Manus's head is separated from his heart, so he's dead (like a vampire, which can also regenerate unless you take it's head).
> 
> Dorn's hand wouldn't just spawn another Dorn like the theory that chopping a worm in half gives you two worms...


Yes...but Vulkan is supposedly resurrecting from a charred skeleton, no brain, no heart(s)...all organs incinerated/vapourised


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## iamtheeviltwin

There is also no guarantee that the Vulkan that is dying at the end of the novel is the same time period Vulkan that teleported away...his death scene could be coming many years later and we are simply glimpsing his end. (not that i have read the passages, just going from the spoilers...so there may be information in the chapter that negates this supposition)


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## piemelke

what are we talking about ?
it does not matter how it evolves, 
if it is Vulkan and he is dead now, that would be the most crap way of terminating a primarch so far, a true and utter dissapointment,
if he can respawn from a skeletal husk, that would also be utter crap, 
in betrayer e.g. Lorgar was nearly killed by plasma burns, I mean that is a long way from being burned to the bare bone.
if Vulkan would be granted the gift of regeneration of whatever in line with the reptilian association of the salamanders that would also be rather lame.
I m curious to see how they are going to write themselves out of this, the only option I see is that the skelet moves to eternia where together with the respawned sanguinus the foundation is placed for he-man and skeletor, 
serious, for me this could be a real show stopper in terms of reading 40 (30) K books


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## kumunhoptep

I read and enjoyed Kyme's work in the Salamanders' Tome of Fire trilogy; that being said this does seem to be treading along the HH series' disappointing trend of breaking from the cannon.


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## MontytheMighty

piemelke said:


> if he can respawn from a skeletal husk, that would also be utter crap


Yes, I'm also wondering 

what is holding his charred skeleton together as it plummets from the upper atmosphere...wouldn't his bones be scattered all over the place?


I'll keep an open mind but I don't know why 

they couldn't just have Vulkan suffer very severe burns rather than being burned to a blackened skeleton


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## Liliedhe

I'm not going to say anything about the spoilers, but where did people get that book? I didn't catch any announcements that it was available at some event. Did I miss that? *shame on me*


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## Khorne's Fist

Liliedhe said:


> I'm not going to say anything about the spoilers, but where did people get that book? I didn't catch any announcements that it was available at some event. Did I miss that? *shame on me*


It was available at the various BL events in England and Ireland over the last couple of months.


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## MontytheMighty

I wouldn't hold my breath for this one...unless you're a fan of Nick Kyme's previous works. In my opinion, everything he's written other than _Fall of Damnos_ has been very lacklustre (to put it mildly). 

If _Promethean Sun_ or _Prometheus Requiem_ (I always get this one confused with _The Core_, which is by ADB and thus much more readable) is good prose to you, I reckon you'll like _Vulkan Lives_. It has an interesting premise and if you're OK with Kyme's usual execution, you'll probably enjoy it. 

I'm really looking forward to _Unremembered Empire_ and _Scars_. Currently, Abnett, Wraight, and ADB form my 40K holy trinity of authours.


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## Liliedhe

Khorne's Fist said:


> It was available at the various BL events in England and Ireland over the last couple of months.


Thank you.


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## Words_of_Truth

Anyone else have a more definitive look at the book?


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## Doelago

^Working my way through the audio version. Will post my opinions on it later.


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## son of azurman

Haven't read it so can't say an educated idea but this is what I believe.
Vulcan is on a mission spanning the whole galaxy in an attempt to save humanity. When abandons force eventuall reach holy terra Vulkanwill return. he will have brought back russ, found the khan,awoken the lion,retrieved Corvus and revived Guilliman and will lead the Astartes in glorious combat saving terra and killing the chaos generals before again vanishing.


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## ckcrawford

I wonder what exact point Black Library gave up on the series and said, "fuck it" lets drain these suckers dry.


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## Doelago

Overall, I‘d say the book was quite shit, but there were a few things worthy of note in it. 



John Grammaticus (who got totally violated by the awful writing) retrieves some sort of "God Weapon" and is now off to kill Vulkan on orders from the Cabal. 

Vulkan is apparently a Perpetual. Yea, he is. Also, perpetuals now apparently respawn randomly within a few hours of having died. Grammaticus gets shot to shit by a boltgun and is confirmed dead. Next chapter he wakes up. Vulkan gets killed half a dozen times, stabbed, burned, whatever and respawns. 

An educated guess of mine says Vulkan is going to show up in _Unremembered Empire_, since he was falling down from orbit towards a planet and Grammaticus was heading to Macragge with the task of killing Vulkan. He is told that he will need to help of a Primarch, and was also told that he will find ones that are willing to get rid of Vulkan. Or something along those lines.





Ouh, also, first page spoilers were true.


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## Words_of_Truth

Doelago said:


> Overall, I‘d say the book was quite shit, but there were a few things worthy of note in it.
> 
> 
> 
> John Grammaticus (who got totally violated by the awful writing) retrieves some sort of "God Weapon" and is now off to kill Vulkan on orders from the Cabal.
> 
> Vulkan is apparently a Perpetual. Yea, he is. Also, perpetuals now apparently respawn randomly within a few hours of having died. Grammaticus gets shot to shit by a boltgun and is confirmed dead. Next chapter he wakes up. Vulkan gets killed half a dozen times, stabbed, burned, whatever and respawns.
> 
> An educated guess of mine says Vulkan is going to show up in _Unremembered Empire_, since he was falling down from orbit towards a planet and Grammaticus was heading to Macragge with the task of killing Vulkan. He is told that he will need to help of a Primarch, and was also told that he will find ones that are willing to get rid of Vulkan. Or something along those lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ouh, also, first page spoilers were true.


Omg that is so awesome, that just reinforces them as my second favourite legion.


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## Tywin Lannister

Doelago said:


> John Grammaticus (who got totally violated by the awful writing) retrieves some sort of "God Weapon" and is now off to kill Vulkan on orders from the Cabal.


Is there any kind of good reason for this, or just 'because'...?


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## Doelago

Tywin Lannister said:


> Is there any kind of good reason for this, or just 'because'...?




_"Because he is is important, and because he must not live to become the Keeper of the Gate"_


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## bobss

Slaying a primarch with a magic weapon. This feels so below (or beyond) the John Grammaticus I know.

Less than thrilled about this plot carrying on into Unrememebred Empire -- a book I believed would deal with major primarch players, digging into their characters in the wake of Isstvan V, Calth, the Shadow Crusade and ongoing galactic war. After all, the Imperium Secundus idea is an interesting alternative concerning the Ultramarines to the original warp delays scenario.


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## MontytheMighty

Doelago said:


> Vulkan is apparently a Perpetual.




WTF...I suppose the Emperor may have the ability to create a primarch who is a perpetual like himself, still seems a bit far-fetched though as I always thought primarchs were primarchs and peretuals were perpetuals


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Thanks Doelago, I'm now even more unexcited about this book!



Are there any more hints/information about what perpetuals actually are? And is it actually confirmed Vulkan is one?

And can you elaborate more on why the Cabal want him dead?


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## Doelago

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Are there any more hints/information about what perpetuals actually are? And is it actually confirmed Vulkan is one?
> 
> And can you elaborate more on why the Cabal want him dead?




Will have to go through it again once I have the ebook version just to see that I did not miss anything while listening to the audio, but they pretty much said that Vulkan is a perpetual. I think it came up at some point when the Salamanders discovered that Grammaticus had woken up from death and was forced to spill forth some secrets to them. Immortality was apparently the Emperors "gift" to Vulkan, in the way the nightmares were to Curze and psychic powers were to Magnus.

They seem to have changed the way perpetuals work, so they are no longer immortal until killed, but now they are apparently immortal to such a point that they will simply respawn upon death. Which brings forth the question: If the Emperor is a perpetual, why not just put a bullet through the head and wait a few hours? A few daemonic incursions and the Astronomican being offline for a while is surely all worth it, yes? I really, really dislike the direction that this is heading. The perpetuals being immortal and living forever unless killed was really cool, but just waking up from death is really lame. 

As for why the Cabal wants Vulkan dead, no idea. All the Eldar said on the matter was the quote I posted last page about preventing him from becoming the "Keeper of the Gate".


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## March of Time

Well if Doelago didn't like it that means it must be a good novel then!


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## Words_of_Truth

When is it actually out because I really want to read it now.


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## March of Time

Words_of_Truth said:


> When is it actually out because I really want to read it now.


It will be on sale at GW stores this weekend.


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## Words_of_Truth

Will the Ebook be up to?


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## March of Time

Words_of_Truth said:


> Will the Ebook be up to?


You can download it this Friday


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## Words_of_Truth

Awesome thanks!


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## Tywin Lannister

Doelago said:


> _"Because he is is important, and because he must not live to become the Keeper of the Gate"_


Thanks - nice and cryptic then!


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## theurge33

Tywin Lannister said:


> Thanks - nice and cryptic then!


 

Maybe he was originally intended to fulfill The Angel's role at the battle of terra...


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## piemelke

Or it might be related to a possible future scenario where Vulkan guards the eye


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## Words_of_Truth

I don't mind it tbh it's adds another dimension to primarchs simply either dying or disappearing, it adds a more mythological tilt to the Salamanders which before struggled to be identified as they shared so many aspects with other legions like the Iron Hands.


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## Tywin Lannister

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't mind it tbh it's adds another dimension to primarchs simply either dying or disappearing, it's adds a more mythological tilt to the Salamanders which before struggled to identified as they shared so many aspects with other legions like the Iron Hands.


Yes it is good if Vulkan actually gets something to do, given that he probably has less preexisting fluff than any other Primarch. Better than just dying on Isstvan anyway...


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## ckcrawford

Thats an interesting new piece. So pretty much all death does to Vulkan is ruin his killstreaks.


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## Words_of_Truth

Still not up yet


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## Lord of the Night

I won't be able to get this book until late September so i'll reserve my judgement until then, but I will comment on two topics here.




In regards to what Doelago said about Perpetuals being changed, how do you know that?? John Grammaticus tried to kill himself, perhaps that was desperation in hope that this death would be his final one rather than a certainty that he would die. Perhaps the Perpetuals have been this way since the beginning of the series and we just haven't seen it because there was no proof that they could resurrect. I don't think that the writers would change something that important just to fit the story, likely this was how it always was.



And,




Vulkan as a Perpetual. That interests me, the idea that the Emperor gave each of his sons a gift. Magnus got psychic powers, Curze got nightmares and foresight, and Vulkan got immortality. Perhaps the Emperor could only give each gift to one son, and chose accordingly. But I do like the idea that there is such a hidden depth to Vulkan, who admittedly did need something all his own beyond being good at crafting weapons because as we've seen, Ferrus Manus is just as good if not better at it, but being the immortal gatekeeper is definitely a fascinating idea, at least for me. I see a definite overtone of Prometheus here, the immortal bearer of fire, cursed to die forever and ever. That may be Vulkan's gift and curse, to serve the Emperor forever but to die continuously in his service.

I can only wonder why the Cabal want him dead, and exactly what he is meant to become the Gatekeeper of. If it was the Eye of Terror then I can't yet fathom why they would want him dead because having an immortal Primarch guarding the Eye would be a genius move by the Emperor, for once that isn't sarcasm, but perhaps there is a more sinister meaning to that title. Or perhaps in his duty Vulkan would do great harm to the Eldar and the other races and they wish to prevent that, so many possibilities.




LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Vulkan as a Perpetual. That interests me, the idea that the Emperor gave each of his sons a gift. Magnus got psychic powers, Curze got nightmares and foresight, and Vulkan got immortality. Perhaps the Emperor could only give each gift to one son, and chose accordingly. But I do like the idea that there is such a hidden depth to Vulkan, who admittedly did need something all his own beyond being good at crafting weapons because as we've seen, Ferrus Manus is just as good if not better at it, but being the immortal gatekeeper is definitely a fascinating idea, at least for me. I see a definite overtone of Prometheus here, the immortal bearer of fire, cursed to die forever and ever. That may be Vulkan's gift and curse, to serve the Emperor forever but to die continuously in his service.
> 
> I can only wonder why the Cabal want him dead, and exactly what he is meant to become the Gatekeeper of. If it was the Eye of Terror then I can't yet fathom why they would want him dead because having an immortal Primarch guarding the Eye would be a genius move by the Emperor, for once that isn't sarcasm, but perhaps there is a more sinister meaning to that title. Or perhaps in his duty Vulkan would do great harm to the Eldar and the other races and they wish to prevent that, so many possibilities.


Similarly LotN, I'll reserve proper judgement until I download and read it myself (which apparently I can start doing today). But in relation to your second point:


What irks me about Vulkan apparently being a perpetual is that, in my eyes, it take something from the perpetual sub-plot. Primarchs are Primarchs and perpetuals are perpetuals. Despite us not knowing exactly who or what perpetuals actually were, the fact that it was some sort of loose brotherhood of humans who had very unique abilities and perhaps even included the Emperor amongst their ranks was very appealing. Vulkan also being one just seems to be strange.

The involvement of the Cabal and Grammaticus in this novel also doesn't sound appealing.

But as I said, I can't really comment properly yet not having read it myself.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Similarly LotN, I'll reserve proper judgement until I download and read it myself (which apparently I can start doing today). But in relation to your second point:
> 
> 
> What irks me about Vulkan apparently being a perpetual is that, in my eyes, it take something from the perpetual sub-plot. Primarchs are Primarchs and perpetuals are perpetuals. Despite us not knowing exactly who or what perpetuals actually were, the fact that it was some sort of loose brotherhood of humans who had very unique abilities and perhaps even included the Emperor amongst their ranks was very appealing. Vulkan also being one just seems to be strange.
> 
> The involvement of the Cabal and Grammaticus in this novel also doesn't sound appealing.
> 
> But as I said, I can't really comment properly yet not having read it myself.


Thought it was just me.

A Primarch being a perpetual seems redundant and wasted.

It undoes the whole 'there's just a few of us left now' speech Grammaticus gave to Oll Person.

And apparently it's a _ gift _ that can be genetically/warp implanted into another being rather than being a completely random occurrence.


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Thought it was just me.
> 
> A Primarch being a perpetual seems redundant and wasted.
> 
> It undoes the whole 'there's just a few of us left now' speech Grammaticus gave to Oll Person.
> 
> And apparently it's a _ gift _ that can be genetically/warp implanted into another being rather than being a completely random occurrence.




Uh how does it undo that?? In a galaxy that has trillions, perhaps even tens of trillions, of humans in it, having a few more Perpetuals undoes the there's only a few of us left? Lets see, these are the Perpetuals we know about.

John Grammaticus
Ollanius Persson
Cyrene Valerion
Damon Prytanis
Two unnamed Perpetuals (Damon's squad)
Vulkan (Allegedly)
The Emperor (Possibly)

So so far, there's possibly eight of them and definitely six of them... yeah i'm gonna say there's still only a few of them.

And even if it's something that can be implanted in someone, it apparantely isn't easy. Erebus had to break the laws of reality to make Cyrene into a Perpetual and the fool didn't even realise what he had done, if he had he'd have tried to replicate it on Word Bearers. And the Emperor, who I don't think is a Perpetual but instead something much more, made Vulkan into an immortal. Why is it assumed that such a thing was simple, or without cost. For all we know it was an immensely difficult thing to do that the Emperor did for Vulkan and then realised he couldn't do it again for the others, or he had a reason that only Vulkan should receive such a gift/curse.



LotN


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## Words_of_Truth

Hmm regarding the two "lost" primarchs.



In a discussion with his equerry he states "I am Artellus. Very much so. None of u s wants another sanction, another empty pillar in the great investiary, another brother's name excised from all record. It is a shame enough to bear the grief for two. I have no wish to add to it, but what choice do I have?" Also earlier on he makes reference to them again although the way it's worded seems to suggest he's not exactly sure whether at least one of them was totally "dealt" with, I'll go back and find it though after I've finished the book.


Apparently Vulkan was one of the first to be found, although quite why he then considers Horus and Dorn his elder brothers I'm not quite sure.


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## Stephen74

Anakwanar said:


> You do understand that the prose is bad and the style is awful - it is better (but by a little) margin from Promethean Son. You do understand that first and third person style running like a wild crazy coyote and is hard to read?


And I think that sums up things perfectly. 

In terms of the prose its awful, awful, awful. I'm listening to it on audio and the First person Third person style is a complete mind fcuk. In fact, I think its downright dangerous to drive and listen to this trash.

I want my £22 back :angry:


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## Words_of_Truth

I really enjoyed the book tbh.


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## Stephen74

To many metaphors. Practically everything has a sodding metaphor, and completely piss poor metaphors as well. From what i've listened to so far you could cut the book by 50% of its content and improve the read 1000%.


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## Munkey

I've just finished the book. It was ok - it felt like it was the lead in to another book (which I think someone already mentioned).



The ending was...interesting...When Vulkan teleported out and then Erebus teleported into the battle between Elias and the Salamanders was a poor thing to put in the book. especially how it was handled. 

Did Vulkan teleport out of Curze's ship and so fell to the planet below? Given the amount of times he was incinerated, disembowelled, beheaded, and probably more...would being burnt away in the atmosphere kill him?

I think someone mentioned about whether that happened in teh future, but from what i recall reading it there is a reference in that last section about Vulkan (presumably as it was in teh first person) saying about just escaping from the Night Haunter, so i wouldn't think that it would be...

Also when Grammaticus mentioned about Vulkan being needed but not necessary alive (or words to that effect) was odd. 


anyway, ramble over. probably got a lot of facts and stuff wrong as i powered through it over a few late nights.....gonna have to read it again.

I've edited this as i seem to have cut out some of the sentences. A bit trigger happy with the cut and paste.


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## Words_of_Truth

Munkey said:


> I've just finished the book. It was ok - it felt like it was the lead in to another book (which I think someone already mentioned).
> 
> 
> 
> The ending was...interesting...When Vulkan teleported out and then Erebus teleported into the battle between Elias and the Salamanders reminded me of a
> 
> Did Vulkan teleport out of Curze's ship and so fell to the planet below? Given the amount of times he was incinerated, disembowelled, beheaded, and probably more...would being burnt away in the atmosphere.
> 
> I think someone mentioned about whether that happened in teh future, but from what i recall reading it there is a reference in that last section about Vulkan (presumably as it was in teh first person) saying about just escaping from the Night Haunter, so i wouldn't think that it would be...
> 
> Also when Grammaticus mentioned about Vulkan being needed but not necessary alive (or words to that effect) was odd.
> 
> 
> anyway, ramble over. probably got a lot of facts and stuff wrong as i powered through it over a few late nights.....gonna have to read it again.




Yeah it's safe to assume Vulkan is still alive even after that final scene, especially since they've tasked John to kill him with the help of another Primarch, I'm wondering whether Vulkan is falling onto Macragge though or possibly it's the world Numeon was one since we don't see what happens to Numeon apart from him choking on his own blood, or do we see what happens to the forces that attack the spaceport, in both cases they are abruptly cut out of the story and we don't fully see whether they are dead or not.


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## Munkey

why would you think Macragge? was there a reference in there?

i was thinking directly outside of Curze's ship so Vulkan was falling towards whatever planet they were around. 

Also, was there an explanation as to why the Salamanders were on that planet? i think Grammaticus asks them and they don;t answer. could his be inked to Numeon's 'feeling' or 'faith' about Vulkan being alive? as you say, the planet that he's falling to could be that one.


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## Words_of_Truth

Munkey said:


> why would you think Macragge? was there a reference in there?
> 
> i was thinking directly outside of Curze's ship so Vulkan was falling towards whatever planet they were around.
> 
> Also, was there an explanation as to why the Salamanders were on that planet? i think Grammaticus asks them and they don;t answer. could his be inked to Numeon's 'feeling' or 'faith' about Vulkan?




The Autarch says to John - "When you reach Macragge...find him because he is not himself any more, he has been there sometime already. John replies that it shouldn't be to difficult, the autarch then says it will be harder than you think and john will need help from another primarch, john goes on saying he doesn't expect that many primarchs would be up for killing him but the autarch said you'd surprised, then the final line of the book states "Then, Vulkan dies"

That to me says Vulkan will be on Macragge, he'll have to find Vulkan as he won't be his normal self and that he'll need the help of another Primarch to be his executioner

The reason the Salamanders were they was because they didn't want the world to end up like another world which became infested by daemons and they wanted to stop them by killing the cleric.


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## theurge33

Ill be getting Promethium Sun, Vulkan Lives and Scorched Earth at the same time. What order should I read them in? I am sure Promethium Sun first, then...?


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## Munkey

Words_of_Truth said:


> The Autarch says to John - "When you reach Macragge...find him because he is not himself any more, he has been there sometime already. John replies that it shouldn't be to difficult, the autarch then says it will be harder than you think and john will need help from another primarch, john goes on saying he doesn't expect that many primarchs would be up for killing him but the autarch said you'd surprised, then the final line of the book states "Then, Vulkan dies"
> 
> That to me says Vulkan will be on Macragge, he'll have to find Vulkan as he won't be his normal self and that he'll need the help of another Primarch to be his executioner
> 
> The reason the Salamanders were they was because they didn't want the world to end up like another world which became infested by daemons and they wanted to stop them by killing the cleric.


cheers, mate. will go back and re-read it and pick those points up. evidently i missed a bit.


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## Words_of_Truth

Munkey said:


> cheers, mate. will go back and re-read it and pick those points up. evidently i missed a bit.


It's pretty much on the final page of the book.


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## piemelke

SPOILERS
...
...
Close to finishing the book,
started out reasonable, but fuck the second half is crap, crap, crap, utter crap, makes me think of the hulk meets austin powers, (the fight with Corax WTF ),
Corax is now officially the wiley e coyote of primarchs, the most incomptent of them all (at least based upon the books deliverance lost and this one), Kyme is now officially compteting with Swallow for nr 1 on my never read again list,
really frustrated,


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## Gree

So, Vulkan is immortal now? Or am I hearing things wrong? I have not yet read the book myself.


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## Words_of_Truth

Gree said:


> So, Vulkan is immortal now? Or am I hearing things wrong? I have not yet read the book myself.




Vulkan is a perpetual and Vulkan didn't fight Corax, Vulkan was being psychically tortured by Davinite priests and made to think he was fighting Corax, likewise he was made to think he was strapped in a machine and made to butcher people as well as when he he is strapped in and made to watch blind death people with forks for hands strapped down in front of a banquet they don't know is there.


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## Gree

Words_of_Truth said:


> Vulkan is a perpetual and Vulkan didn't fight Corax, Vulkan was being psychically tortured by Davinite priests and made to think he was fighting Corax, likewise he was made to think he was strapped in a machine and made to butcher people as well as when he he is strapped in and made to watch blind death people with forks for hands strapped down in front of a banquet they don't know is there.


Well between this and the Highlander immortals that suddenly appeared in the series for some reason, I'm certainly glad I've stopped buying Horus Heresy novels, since Betrayer if this is the typical fare that is being churned out.


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## Words_of_Truth

Gree said:


> Well between this and the Highlander immortals that suddenly appeared in the series for some reason, I'm certainly glad I've stopped buying Horus Heresy novels, since Betrayer if this is the typical fare that is being churned out.




It's his gift from the Emperor, like Sanguinius has wings, Corax can go invisible, Perturabo can see through space etc oh he's also the strongest strength wise than all the other primarchs


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## Gree

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's his gift from the Emperor, like Sanguinius has wings, Corax can go invisible, Perturabo can see through space etc oh he's also the strongest strength wise than all the other primarchs


That's interesting and all, but I already knew that. Still not enjoying the whole perpetual sub-plot going on.


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## Stephen74

Err... can writers sue themselves for copyrighting their own material?

Just finished Vulkan Lives, Dies, Lives, Dies, whatever... and downloaded the audio book for the Primarchs, started listening to the Fist of Iron and thought, didn't I just leave this book.

Primarch, trapped in a labyrinth, having delusions, being manipulated by a figure in the shadows, and his legion bleating about how they've lost him. 

Does someone not oversee this stuff and say, Oi, Kyme. NO!



Back to Vulkan Meeh, final brief review started off awful but did get better. The Vulkan stuff was bad from start to finish but the Legionary and John Gramaticus stuff I enjoyed. I am definitely intrigued by the perpetuals, and now its expanding to include Primarchs and so on it certainly has potential to be the most interesting of the heresy plots.


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## Khyzer

So I just finished this novel... Certainly isn't winning any awards in my eyes, but I don't feel it was as earth shattering terrible as some are making it out to be.



Personally I read it as Vulkan isn't a perpetual per se... he was just granted immortality by the Emperor, similarly to Corax and his invisibility or Curze and his foresight. Which makes me wonder what little gifts the other Primarchs may have hidden up their sleeves lol. Anyways, I still believe the perpetuals are just unnaturally long lived(immortal) humans, Grammaticus is different in that he works for the Cabal, and it is them that are "reviving" him against his will (as seen with him jumping out an airlock in _Legion_ and being annoyed by the fact he his back alive in _Vulkan Lives_. Then being contacted by the mysterious other Eldar who is offering him a way to break ties with the cabal and pursue his own goals, final peace through death? I also liked his comment about how he was kinda sick with himself for being a traitor to the entire human race. His motives to work with the Cabal at this point really confuse me lol). As far as I can remember Oll has never died and is the example of a perpetual as we all believed them to be, just immortal to an old aged death. 

I was kind of annoyed how the talisman that Numeon carried with him the entire novel and had all the introspective with turned out to be nothing more then a dumb trinket... Kind of a lame twist if you ask me...

But I for sure see Vulkan as falling into the Macragge atmosphere and will show up in _Unremembered Empire_, with Grammaticus hunting him down. Or maybe he wont, and will take up the mysterious Eldar who contacted him with another plan which wasn't revealed to us. Either way, I enjoy the Perpetual idea, but I have not enjoyed the way they are being used throughout the storyline =/, more so just this latest adventure of Grammaticus in _Vulkan Lives_ is the part I have not enjoyed about them. But that is just my opinion...


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras

Having just finished _Vulkan Lives_ i'm of the opinion that it was average at best. The second half of the book was woeful at best. Some of the characterisation was interesting, especially Vulkan and Kurze. Beyond that, it just fell apart for me. 

Hopefully Nick Kyme will be kept from full-HH novels from now on. Looking forward to _Unremembered Empire_ and _Scars_.


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## theurge33

I just finished, thought it was pretty good..not the best. Love Vulkan. Kyme really made me squirm...some of the most twisted content to date. I thought I was in a SAW movie lol. 

My thoughts were that Vulkan was either falling in to the atmosphere of McCragge or , which I think make more sense, the planet where Numeon is on...the beacon is there after all and it would provide closure to those space marines that were left. I know the Cabal told Grammaticus that "he has been there for a while and is changed" but that doesn't necessarily have to mean Vulkan...or maybe Curze's ship is somehow near McCragge and that was said before Vulkan teleported. 

The help from a primarch could most certainly indicate Curze.

The fact that John's mission seems to be to use the fulgurite on Vulkan gives me hope that Vulkan is to survive and become the "The Gatekeeper". Knowing the Cabal's mission and the outcome of the heresy.

My random thoughts after just finishing the book.

Did anyone catch the brief mention of Polux? All but confirming he ends up on McCragge


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## alasdair

At least this explains the Labyrinth that Perturabo is mentioned to have built for Curze in Angel Exterminatus..


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## Angel of Blood

theurge33 said:


> My thoughts were that Vulkan was either falling in to the atmosphere of McCragge or , which I think make more sense, the planet where Numeon is on...the beacon is there after all and it would provide closure to those space marines that were left. I know the Cabal told Grammaticus that "he has been there for a while and is changed" but that doesn't necessarily have to mean Vulkan...


The world he's falling to is described as 'a grey - almost palid world', as far as I'm aware, Macragge is quite a temperate world, so I doubt it's there, could be any number of worlds in the Ultramar system though. 

As for Traoris, that _is_ described as grey world, but I don't know whether Kyme was trying to be ambiguous or something, or was just being a generally shit writer with Numeons last scene. As it seems to be indicating that the sigil is infact a teleport homer that Vulkan has locked onto and it's him Numeon has seen which makes him utter 'Vulkan Lives'. But then Erebus is there and I was pretty much like 'eh?', I mean, what exactly did the talisman do if not provide a lock on for Vulkan? What were the technologies installed within it, that were 'beyond even his Legiones Astartes sons'? One of the many problems I had in general with the novel.

But anyway, it seems to be indicating that he's crashing down onto Traoris, but like virtually the entire novel, Kyme seems to have decided to troll us all and contribute fuck all to Vulkan instead of finally explaining his fate. 



theurge33 said:


> or maybe Curze's ship is somehow near McCragge and that was said before Vulkan teleported.


Curze had Vulkan captured before he embarked on the Thramas campaign, and it stands to reason that Vulkan escaped long before Curze started his war with the Lion.



theurge33 said:


> The help from a primarch could most certainly indicate Curze.


That being said, from the most up to date info we have. Curze was last known to be on the Lions ship, still at large, and the Lion himself is last known to have been heading for Ultramar to have stern words with Guilliman and what he's up to. So Curze, could quite likely be on Ultramar to aid John.



theurge33 said:


> "The Gatekeeper". Knowing the Cabal's mission and the outcome of the heresy.


Still wandering what Kyme is on about here, only gates I can think of that would have the Eldar that hyped up would be the webway gates, so possibly the Emperors gate on Terra? But then it's unclear if the Eldar in the Cabal represent the Eldar as a whole anyway, in fact, judging by the other mysterious Eldar trying to help Vulkan, it would indicate they aren't.



theurge33 said:


> Did anyone catch the brief mention of Polux? All but confirming he ends up on McCragge


Yeah noticed that one too. But then we pretty much knew that anyway.


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## Words_of_Truth

It would be a poor thing if the outcome of all these assassination attempts really does result in him dead. I'd much prefer the image of Vulkan hiding away on some world in 40k, farming or blacksmiting and leading a "normal" life than just being a notch on the loyal Primarch death board.


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## Rems

Words_of_Truth said:


> It would be a poor thing if the outcome of all these assassination attempts really does result in him dead. I'd much prefer the image of Vulkan hiding away on some world in 40k, farming or blacksmiting and leading a "normal" life than just being a notch on the loyal Primarch death board.


Really, you'd prefer him to be a useless coward? Just up and abandoning the Imperium would be a gross derliction of duty and a criminal waste of his talents.


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## Doelago

Words_of_Truth said:


> It would be a poor thing if the outcome of all these assassination attempts really does result in him dead. I'd much prefer the image of Vulkan hiding away on some world in 40k, farming or blacksmiting and leading a "normal" life than just being a notch on the loyal Primarch death board.


That would probably the lamest outcome available.


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## Valrak

What was the mention of Polux? Missed that one.


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## Words_of_Truth

Rems said:


> Really, you'd prefer him to be a useless coward? Just up and abandoning the Imperium would be a gross derliction of duty and a criminal waste of his talents.





Doelago said:


> That would probably the lamest outcome available.


Why would it? It would be no different than Corax and Leman Russ sodding off into the Eye of Terror, only this time he's stayed in the mortal universe. All Primarchs can't actually be in 40k you know that right? Daemon ones can pop up now and then but because they are daemons, they are weaker than normal Primarchs imo (can be banished etc, like Angron on Armageddon) 

Loyalist Primarchs are either dead, lost or sleeping, Vulkan living a normal secluded life would be different to every other primarch and not just another tally mark. Look at Alpharius/Omegon, its cool that they may still be within the mortal universe plotting and scheming etc rather than just being another daemon primarch.

Variations on Primarchs outcomes is good, fobbing them off as just another possibly dead/missing primarch is boring.


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## Angel of Blood

Final chapter when John is thinking on how he will slip into Mcragge.

"It would be guarded, he knew that. But if he got there before Polux, he'd have a much better chance of slipping through their security nets."

Possibly implying that Guilliman wants Polux to use his Imperial Fists expertise to help fortify Mcragge and Ultramar.


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## Words_of_Truth

Will Unremembered Empire be out at Gamesday, I really really want to read it.


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## Valrak

Angel of Blood said:


> Final chapter when John is thinking on how he will slip into Mcragge.
> 
> "It would be guarded, he knew that. But if he got there before Polux, he'd have a much better chance of slipping through their security nets."
> 
> Possibly implying that Guilliman wants Polux to use his Imperial Fists expertise to help fortify Mcragge and Ultramar.


Thank you.


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## March of Time

Words_of_Truth said:


> Will Unremembered Empire be out at Gamesday, I really really want to read it.


Yes it will :grin:


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