# Alpha Legion traitors or No?



## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

I would just like to resolve this once and for all Alpha Legion Good or Evil:grin:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Good and Evil are subjective concepts. :biggrin:


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Nobody knows, maybe even the Legion don't know anymore.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

scolatae said:


> I would just like to resolve this once and for all Alpha Legion Good or Evil:grin:


Well if you ask Alpharius, no. If you ask any of the loyal marines, yes. If you ask any of the Chaos Marines, it was the Emporer who betrayed them. 

Phew... glad we sorted our that little mystery. :grin:


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## Trandoshanjake (Jul 22, 2008)

Traitors? Yes. Evil? Who knows...


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

They are good at what they do. And what they do is evil.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

They were traitor, but with the veiw of saving the Imperium. So traitors but for the greater good. However after 10k years possibly without a Primarch I doubt they remain loyal, although the warcry does suggest on some level that they are still loyal, or just that they are now mocking the Imperium. In my opinion after 10k years they are definately traitors who do not care about saving the Imperium, they just care about the Chaos Gods winning, but ultimately they turned against the Imperium, so irrelivant of reasoning they are traitors.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Zondarian said:


> They were traitor, but with the veiw of saving the Imperium. So traitors but for the greater good. However after 10k years possibly without a Primarch I doubt they remain loyal, although the warcry does suggest on some level that they are still loyal, or just that they are now mocking the Imperium. In my opinion after 10k years they are definately traitors who do not care about saving the Imperium, they just care about the Chaos Gods winning, but ultimately they turned against the Imperium, so irrelivant of reasoning they are traitors.


Without a Primarch? Maybe, maybe not... Legion makes that a real issue, they might be the ONLY legion with a primarch now.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

well soley because Roubote guillemen didn't like them even before the heresy im going to say they are nice.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Zondarian said:


> They were traitor, but with the veiw of saving the Imperium. So traitors but for the greater good. However after 10k years possibly without a Primarch I doubt they remain loyal, although the warcry does suggest on some level that they are still loyal, or just that they are now mocking the Imperium. In my opinion after 10k years they are definately traitors who do not care about saving the Imperium, they just care about the Chaos Gods winning, but ultimately they turned against the Imperium, so irrelivant of reasoning they are traitors.





Epic Fail said:


> Without a Primarch? Maybe, maybe not... Legion makes that a real issue, they might be the ONLY legion with a primarch now.


What the...? OK, to my knowledge, the only Primarch that has been CONFIRMED as being dead/killed on the traitors side is Horus. All others are scant at best.

We don't know if Alpharius was killed, just presumed so by some errant Sergeant smurf. And given what we do know about the Alpha legion, it could be an easy play on Imperium dissinformation. 

We don't know if Nighthaunter was actually killed, since the message cut off and the assassin never confirmed the kill. But, I'd be happy to say he was dead because his reason would be less accurate if he was still kicking. (He never struck me as a hypocrit)

All the others ASAIK are alive and well, elevated to Princehood, kicking it on their respective planets. Unless of course, you can provide evidence to the contrary?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sanguimumphle died by horus' hand for sure.

And for the sole reason Alpha legion pisses off ultrasmurphs, I say they're on the side of "awesome"


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> And for the sole reason Alpha legion pisses off ultrasmurphs, I say they're on the side of "awesome"


Agreed

Also, even if Alpha Legion hadnt of fallen, they would have started a civil war with guilliman's proposal for the Codex Astaries. Either way they fall out, at least with the Heresy they now have allies (well as much of an ally u can have while being chaos)


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

traitors to the corrupt imperium it was becoming, yes. traitors to the ideals that started the great crusade, no.


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

poor AL, so misunderstood =(


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## xX2005SocialDXx (Jan 28, 2009)

Alpha Legion is evil


And Looking at their Post-Heresy symbols they dont seem too freindly.

Look at my Avatar and my Sigy.


In addition do you disagree that Dawn of War is cannon?

Because if you dont then thats how Alpha Legion must really be like


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i heard the next dawn of war is not going to have chaos. fuck me!
that REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY... PISSSSES Me OFFF!!!:angry:


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> i heard the next dawn of war is not going to have chaos. fuck me!
> that REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY... PISSSSES Me OFFF!!!:angry:



Eventually they will be in DoWII, most likely in the next expansion


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> Good and Evil are subjective concepts. :biggrin:


Philosophically, they're rather concrete. :laugh: Right and Wrong are probably what you were thinking of.

Yes, the Alpha Legion is definitely Evil. They have abandoned their duty to humanity, and that's that.


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## Kharn the betrayer1 (Aug 4, 2008)

current fluff more than says there evil, responsible for wiping out atleast one chapter of space marines and constantly attacking loyalist been at it a long time.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Treewizard648 said:


> Eventually they will be in DoWII, most likely in the next expansion


 a bit off topic... I CANT WAIT THAT LONG!:ireful2:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> Philosophically, they're rather concrete. :laugh: Right and Wrong are probably what you were thinking of.


If you say so, Captain "Black-and-White" Galus.

They are fluid ideas, dependent entirely on perspective and definition. The 'Evil Empire' is a great example. All these Russians in the 80s are hearing this and saying "who the hell are you calling evil, you b-movie reject?"

But back on topic, the Alpha Legion shtick is deception. They were good at it when during the Great Crusade and they have been going strong for 10k years. That said, its very possible that no one will know if they are loyal or traitors or just hanging out because they have nothing better to do. Hell, they might be all three. Remember that they were experts at using small, independent units. There could be thousands of warbands out there, each thinking it is doing what the legion wants and all contradicting each other.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

The Alpha Legion was replaced with tropical fruit.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

They are the ULTIMATE good!


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

Neutral ftw! Lol j/k xD


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

i think they were once good, but now they have lost the way are are just evil.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Wait are Alphas all Swedish?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

lord of rebirth said:


> Wait are Alphas all Swedish?


Do you mean Swiss, miss Alba? :biggrin:

But semi-seriously: who here ISN'T confused by the alpha legion back story?


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

so they destroy whole planets,so do the imperium,good and evil really dont exist(sorry if that offends anyone)


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I was all for them being loyal still but looking at there fluff I just cant see it anymore. I mean I know IA is not that most cannon of fluff but look at them during the siege of vraks. Telling the Cadinal to summon daemons and summon help from Chaos fractions to kill imperial soliders. I know they are trying to destroy the imperium to destroy chaos but they dont seem to be going about it the right way.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Lord Lucius said:


> so they destroy whole planets,so do the imperium,good and evil really dont exist(sorry if that offends anyone)


But periods exist, right? How about capitalization? Sentence structure? SPACES? :laugh:

Sorry, just messing with you. But thanks for agreeing that Good and Evil aren't objective concepts.



Talos said:


> I was all for them being loyal still but looking at there fluff I just cant see it anymore. I mean I know IA is not that most cannon of fluff but look at them during the siege of vraks. Telling the Cadinal to summon daemons and summon help from Chaos fractions to kill imperial soliders. I know they are trying to destroy the imperium to destroy chaos but they dont seem to be going about it the right way.


Ah, but that could be 'all part of the plan'. They could realize that by making the Cardinal summon daemons, it will cause something that will cause something else which will cause something else which will help the Imperium win on a grander scale. Confused yet? Good, because I am too.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

And that's what the Alpha Legion do.

Confusion is evil, everyone who believes that the Truth comes from a Dead Guy on a Throne can tell you that. Lalalala, I can't hear you, I'm too busy burning Heretics.

Do the AL have a clear goal or rationale? Debatable. Is the Imperium 'good'? Unlikely. Is debatably fighting something that's unlikely to be good actually evil? A little from column A, a little from column B... 

What their ultimate aims are we can't judge; the point is more that their methods are pretty horrendous. I don't buy this "oh we'll kill a billion people now to save a trillion in the future" - that's stupid logic, and is in fact merely a justification for evil.

So yeah I'll say evil, with the proviso that I think the Imperium is evil as well.

:a cyclops on both your houses:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

*Red Orc is a freaking genius! (yeah, I wrote freaking)*



Red Orc said:


> Do the AL have a clear goal or rationale? Debatable. Is the Imperium 'good'? Unlikely. Is debatably fighting something that's unlikely to be good actually evil? A little from column A, a little from column B...


So basically it is like a battle of coal black vs midnight black morality? I can dig that. But I like spiky armour. Even though it appears that being alive and fighting for 11 bijillion years does not make one a better warrior. Only a shiney hat does that. Damn you GW! :angry:



Red Orc said:


> What their ultimate aims are we can't judge; the point is more that their methods are pretty horrendous. I don't buy this "oh we'll kill a billion people now to save a trillion in the future" - that's stupid logic, and is in fact merely a justification for evil.


THANK YOU!

Why can't we be honest with ourselves, people? I worship chaos for a few simple reasons, mostly because evil is cool, feels good and taste great! 

Why did I just virus bomb that planet? Because I felt like it. 
Why did I just invade that hive world, enslave the population, and then distill their souls down into an shotglass of liquid? Because I can't make my banana-mango-strawberry smoothies without it.
Human sacrifice? It's tuesday.

Chaos just has more fun.

Okay, that probably wasn't what you were going for, but it was funny anyway.



Red Orc said:


> So yeah I'll say evil, with the proviso that I think the Imperium is evil as well.


Again, kettle and pot syndrome. 



Red Orc said:


> :a cyclops on both your houses:


:rofl:


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

This is why I like Orks. We don't have that kind of moral ambiguity*. 

"Wossat?"
"I dunno, just thump it."
"Yer, alright then..."
SMASH!

Moral debate over.

:simplistic cyclops:

*We can manage moronic ambulances however. They're the ones that take the injured _into_ danger.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Talos said:


> I was all for them being loyal still but looking at there fluff I just cant see it anymore. I mean I know IA is not that most cannon of fluff but look at them during the siege of vraks. Telling the Cadinal to summon daemons and summon help from Chaos fractions to kill imperial soliders. I know they are trying to destroy the imperium to destroy chaos but they dont seem to be going about it the right way.


We got a little more wayward and wacky in the recent years...


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> We got a little more wayward and wacky in the recent years...


So what? Daemon worship and soul stealing are the AL version of "the college years"?


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Evil or not, brainwashing guys before they were inducted to be marines then having them attack their brothers....

Thats top notch for originality, sure beats unleashing a plague of warp mosquitos.

Btw is there any more fluff for the Cabal floating around? i'd like to read it


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Well according to my source:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion

They are classified as "unknown" but I would say they are a traitor legion because also according to the same source the Loyal legion count is at 9 and the traitor legion count is only at 8.... so that is my theory... 

Chaosftw


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## Tycho's Elite (Dec 13, 2008)

The alpha legion is now traitor but right after the Horus heresy they believed the imperium were wrong in believing that the emporer was a god but didn't agree with chaos either.


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## 1001st Son (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree with a lot that I've read, but _Legion_ is gonna sum up my thoughts the best. I think that at first, they truly believed that they could only save the Imperium by saving it, but after ages of being exposed to Chaos, they couldn't help but stop 'faking it', so to speak.


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

1001st Son said:


> I agree with a lot that I've read, but _Legion_ is gonna sum up my thoughts the best. I think that at first, they truly believed that they could only save the Imperium by saving it, but after ages of being exposed to Chaos, they couldn't help but stop 'faking it', so to speak.


that sounds good enough to me. k:


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## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> This is why I like Orks. We don't have that kind of moral ambiguity*.
> 
> "Wossat?"
> "I dunno, just thump it."
> ...


Thats why i like orks too, Wasn't there an eldar saying about that? I can't remember it off the top of my head sorry.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Yes. Yes there was. Even the Eldar recognise that the Orks are the pinnacle of creation. Or one of them did at least.

:big green cyclops:


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

Here's how it seems to stand (in a nutshell):

As of the time when the Cabal entreated the Alpha Legion to "turn against" the Imperium, the Alpha Legion was not evil, and at least for a time kept to that philosophy. After the Heresy broke apart thanks to Horus' death, the Alpha Legion kept more to itself than ever before (which is a feat in itself seeing as virtually no one knew anything about them). Now, it appears that yes, they have been warped by Chaos according to the current fluff GW is putting out. Then again, find something in the 40K universe that has had the same amount of contact with the Warp and hasn't been corrupted by Chaos.

I personally like to think they haven't really been tainted that much, and the only ones running around all crazy are "new acquisitions" that come from fallen Chapters that like to think they could be half as good as the Alpha Legion, rather than those of the original Legion.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Yes. Yes there was. Even the Eldar recognise that the Orks are the pinnacle of creation. Or one of them did at least.


One of the niftiest quotes in 40K IMO. 


On topic though; given the current Fluff, I don't really see the Alpha Legion as being corrupted by Chaos, mutated or having received any external influence since they broke from the 'Loyalist' ranks. Most of the fluff refers to Chaos as a whole; the Alpha Legion specific stuff doesn't really make mention of infernal powers. 

While the Dark Angels certainly has the most conspiracy theories; we know even less about the Alpha Legion. The Primarch said they were for the Emporer, and no one knows whether or not he's dead or alive. I think it's still safe to assume they still believe the reasons for that statement; regardless of the mountains of propoganda thrown against them.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

scolatae said:


> I would just like to resolve this once and for all Alpha Legion Good or Evil:grin:


what do you mean 'once and for all'? the question of them possibly being 'good' was a creation of the book Legion. they have always been Chaos adherents and have always been utterly against the Imperium, which is usually the criteria for good/bad in 40k.

they are utterly reprehensable bad-guys and will never be anything else. there is no good reason to assume that even the 'revelation' of Legion suggests otherwise.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I feel at this point they are traitors to the Imperium, nobody can deny that, they turned traitor against the imperium, irrelivent of reasoning they are traitors. Saying they are bad guys is silly as every army in 40k is evil. The real question is do they still fight to save the Imperium. The answer is Yes and No. Chaos work as warbands, some will kill in the name of the chaos gods for personal gain. However it is likely that some of the origonal pre heresyt members of the legion remember why they fight, and also those warriors that are led by the Primarchs, in my opinion, are likely to still fight for the origonal reasons. The chaos gods do not mess things up that work, why try to change Alpherius and Omegon's minds when they are already doing what they want


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## dotalchemy (Mar 4, 2009)

xiawujing said:


> Then again, find something in the 40K universe that has had the same amount of contact with the Warp and hasn't been corrupted by Chaos.


The Ordo Malleus. 

Ultimately, you can see the Alpha Legion as being a forerunner to the Ordo Malleus. They were the first, short of the Emperor, to begin to try and understand the warp and the forces within. Granted, in comparison to the Cabal that they met and other races such as the eldar, they didn't really understand it at all.

So follow it on to Nathanial Garro and his contingent of loyalists abord the Eisenstien. They came into contact with creatures from the immaterium and one could suppose that Garro went on to create the Ordo Malleus, with the obvious approval of Terra.

One way of looking at it - Horus did not win. If the Cabal's presentation of what was to come was correct, then the Imperium is currently in the process of slowly tearing itself apart anyway. Chaos is consuming. Perhaps the Alpha Legion are simply playing their continuing part in this slow descent into eternal damnation, powerless to stop it and thus anxious to make it as quick as possible for humanity.

Or, maybe they are corrupt and it's as simple as that.

Somehow, given that this involves the Alpha Legion, I doubt it will ever be "as simple as that."

S


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## Inquisitor_ball (May 12, 2008)

After all Garro is a man of an "inquisitive nature"


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

When did this ever become about Garro?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Garro was a man of inquisitive nature = he looked into the abyss = the Grey Knights know about chaos = you can know about chaos without turning against the Emperor = the Alpha Legion can't hide behind the excuse of chaos = therefore they really are traitors.

I think.

It's not about Garro, he was just an example.

icking at threads cyclops:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Inquisitor_ball said:


> After all Garro is a man of an "inquisitive nature"


unless you consider the narative of FotE, in which he is distinctly disinterested in pretty much everything that happens. he isn't particularly interested in finding out about the Warrior Lodges, he isn't very interested in why he is picked by Mortarion, he shows no desire to get to the bottom of the treachery and chaotic influence, he's utterly unconcerned with his visions whilst injured, doesn't really question the sickness of his compatriot and shows little to no concern over those in his ward that claim the Emperor is a god. in fact the plot of the book is seemingly something that happens to him, rather than an adventure of his own creating. the only thing he seems genuinely concerned by is getting to Terra to tell the Emperor of the rebellion.

if you compare him with most of the other characters in the book Garro's the least inquisitive.



skiddy said:


> Ultimately, you can see the Alpha Legion as being a forerunner to the Ordo Malleus. They were the first, short of the Emperor, to begin to try and understand the warp and the forces within.


i don't see how those two things are related (the Ordo Malleus are not primarily concerned with understanding the warp, its just that some feel that making a study of the warp is a good weapon against Chaos), how the first statement has any bearing in reality (their's no indication that the Ordo Malleus was in anyway a follow up to anything started by the AL), or how the second statment does either (the AL weren't trying to understand the warp, they were trying to fight a war. the TS might be accused of trying to understand the warp, but not the AL).


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## WarbossCrunk (Aug 31, 2008)

I think the AL had the best intentions when they started down the road to heresy, but the farther they slid, the faster their momentum carried them. It's rather like the old axiom they used in chruch when I was a nipper and actually went. If you want to boil a frog (And no one ever explained why you'd want to boil a frog, but let's just assume you do want to) you don't dump a frog into a pot of boiling water, he'll just jump out. But if you put him in a pot of cold water and slowly increase the heat he'll be dead before he ever registers that the water is hot, because it'll just slowly happen and it'll just seem a little warmer than before (Or so the story went, having never personally tried to boil a frog, I can't vouch for its accuracy).


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

When the Cabal succeeded in turning the Alpha Legion against humanity, I'm fairly certain that Alpharius/Omegon honestly thought they were still doing the Emperor's work. This makes him the stupidest Primarch(s) of all time, and I'm counting _Fulgrim _in this statistic. So the Emperor would wan't you to listen to a bunch of sneaky aliens? And work towards the annihilation of humanity? Real smart, douchebag.

On point, the Alpha Legion may have started out strait, but nowadays (M.41) they're about a straight as a rainbow-colored circle; and once again, it should be noted that they beat _Fulgrim _to this honorific.

.....

_Fulgrim_. Lol.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

scolatae said:


> I would just like to resolve this once and for all Alpha Legion Good or Evil:grin:


Good or evil, who cares. Biggest thing about them is they are led by a couple of idiots who I wouldn't trust with a potato gun. I am so glad their moron of a primarch was killed by roboute. Destroying the human race so that xenos inherit the galaxy - dumb asses. Why they were talking to xenos at all is beyond me - than to follow thier advice and turn traitor, that's idiotic. The emp's policy on xenos is pretty straight forward. The other legions got corrupted, which may make them weak, but it is understandable. Alpha Legion turned traitor because they took the short bus to Heresy.

Alpha legion is probably the worst book I ever read. I only finished it because I want to read all the HH novels. They bomb with another book like that and I won't finish it.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

It seems to me that the Alpha Legion was deceived in much the same way Horus was: by an interpretation of the future that may or may not come to pass. Whether it was dumb for them to get duped, they fell into heresy/Chaos via the same method as Horus and the Sons of Horus, and it creates a nice tie-in.

It seems more dumb to me that Magnus got in trouble for using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery _before_ Horus could be dealt with, therefore leaving Magnus to break from the Imperium and join Horus, rather than thanking Magnus and dealing with his rule-breaking after the fact.

As a matter of fact, outside of Lorgar and Angron, I am not certain any of the other primarchs really went about becoming traitors the 'smart' way. Most of them seemed to have been duped in some way or another, and you would have thought the primarchs would have been smarter than that.

As a loyal Iron Warrior player, I am annoyed to no end by this fact since it seems that all it took to convert Perturabo and the Iron Warriors was an insignificant rebellion on their home world and having garrison duty on some of the planets because they were the best at doing that job. Give me a break.

Thanks,
Howard


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Good or evil, who cares. Biggest thing about them is they are led by a couple of idiots who I wouldn't trust with a potato gun. I am so glad their moron of a primarch was killed by roboute. Destroying the human race so that xenos inherit the galaxy - dumb asses. Why they were talking to xenos at all is beyond me - than to follow thier advice and turn traitor, that's idiotic. The emp's policy on xenos is pretty straight forward. The other legions got corrupted, which may make them weak, but it is understandable. Alpha Legion turned traitor because they took the short bus to Heresy.
> 
> Alpha legion is probably the worst book I ever read. I only finished it because I want to read all the HH novels. They bomb with another book like that and I won't finish it.


I want you to realize that them's fightin' words. However, I'm not going to stoop to the level of a Space Wolf or World Eater and come at you fangs a flyin'.

The Alpha Legion is a bunch of underhanded sneaky fuckers who'd like nothing else than to be left alone.

My guess as to what they're doing in the 41st Millenium, fluffwise that is, is either they're in constant contact with the Cabal, and now that they've realized their stupidity are working to set everything to rights from the shadows, or they've killed the Cabal for telling them lies, and are working from the shadows whenever they're too bored now.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> It seems to me that the Alpha Legion was deceived in much the same way Horus was: by an interpretation of the future that may or may not come to pass. Whether it was dumb for them to get duped, they fell into heresy/Chaos via the same method as Horus and the Sons of Horus, and it creates a nice tie-in.
> 
> It seems more dumb to me that Magnus got in trouble for using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery _before_ Horus could be dealt with, therefore leaving Magnus to break from the Imperium and join Horus, rather than thanking Magnus and dealing with his rule-breaking after the fact.
> 
> ...


As much as I love the Iron Warriors I cant help but feel that their primarch is an insecure little bastard. Even if he can rip people in half.


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## Fallen Angel Sammael (Jun 18, 2009)

Traitors..


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## Marcus Vine (Jun 17, 2009)

Still a hot topic I see, I personally don't know


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

to my understanding, they agree with the emperors ideals, but the emperor becoming a god among men is kind of hipocritical to his plan
so they still yell "for the emperor!" as they charge into battle
but they are actually fighting for the emperors ideals
not his mightyness the god emperor himself

FOR THE EMPEROR AND SANGUINIUS!*cough*cough*


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

If im honest at first i think they were loyal (to a certain degree) and were acting out the orders of Alpharius in order to 'save' the Imperium but now the powers of the Pavilion of Four has corrupted them i do think some of the marines who had been captains and high ranking leaders still try to lead their marines in the name of the Emperor (but evidently failing) another interesting fact is that the Inquisition has declared them wiped out three seperate times.


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