# What units should never be used? (not 40k)



## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Which units in your army book are so woeful, pointless, and downright useless, that no general in their right mind should ever consider taking them? Are they something in your own army you've never seen the point of, or a unit in someone elses that you destroy laughably easily?


For me with Ogre's, its Yhetee. Bad rules, bad weapon skill and seriously overprice in points cost. I'd never take them without major improvements.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Can't the Yhetee arrive behind enemy lines, and therefore make a mess of enemy Artillery? One would think that good, for saving the expensive multi-wound creatures that comprise the bulk (pun intended) of your force.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Your thinking Gorgers.

Yhetee cost nearly twice as much as a bull for hardly any benefit.


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

skink krox mixed units they are woeful because by the time you have added the krox to the unit they are pretty much the same cost as saurus blocks which are all t4 have a better save and all s4 rather than having 6 s6 attscks a few s3 and then lose loads of t2 skinks meaning the unit runs away


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

Cheese meister said:


> skink krox mixed units they are woeful because by the time you have added the krox to the unit they are pretty much the same cost as saurus blocks which are all t4 have a better save and all s4 rather than having 6 s6 attscks a few s3 and then lose loads of t2 skinks meaning the unit runs away


I am facepalming at this point, skink krox mix is absalutly mandatory to have in a large game because they will clean up the enemy almost every time.
for me I am kind of leaning towards cold ones for Lizardmen because they are really expencive for only 8 (more so expencive then Temple guard which I think are better, you can almost have 20 temple guards for the price of 8 of these guys)
and for skaven I am kind of thinking that most units are generally good for skaven are usually cheap to deploy.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

with WoC l am going to say its Forsaken, with there random attacks and high point cost with low armour.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Character, not a unit, but Death Hags. T3, 2W, no armor save, at most a 5+ ward save. Can get up to around 150 points. That much an investment isn't worth it when you're so fragile.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Cheese meister said:


> skink krox mixed units they are woeful because by the time you have added the krox to the unit they are pretty much the same cost as saurus blocks which are all t4 have a better save and all s4 rather than having 6 s6 attscks a few s3 and then lose loads of t2 skinks meaning the unit runs away


No... Kroxiskinks are good. I wouldn't say mandatory, but they're good. They're pretty much the only unit that's viable as a horde in the Lizardmen army, you can form them up and steadfast the shit out of the enemy, they're fast as all buggery, they have decent shooting, and since the Giant Reach rule has been thrown out as per the FAQ, you can't even kill the Kroxigor until you've chewed through most of the skinks. They're an excellent choice.



Flindo said:


> for me I am kind of leaning towards cold ones for Lizardmen because they are really expencive for only 8 (more so expencive then Temple guard which I think are better, you can almost have 20 temple guards for the price of 8 of these guys)


This is more like it. Saurus Cavalry are the polished turds of the Lizardmen army. Pretty much everything else in that book is well costed and has a role to fufill. I've never been a fan of cavalry; and in the current edition it's even worse. Factor in that Saurus Cavalry are grossly overpointed, and you've got a unit that should only ever be taken for one reason- you don't have the models for anything else, and your opponent wants to play a higher point game. Saurus cav are the sawdust of the Lizardmen meatloaf, not the beef.


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

For Beastmen, I'd have to say quite a few
Chaos Spawns. Unreliable movment, easy to defeat in CC now that most infantry will have ranks on it. Even at holding flanks it stinks....as it may be way behind you. For 1 of them, you can get a more reliable razor-pig.

Rares: pretty much everything. Ghorgon, giant, Jabber, Cygor: they all are cannon magnets that are 20-30% over priced. The Ghorgon can take a hit, but maybe 1-2 tops. Jabber is neutered with BSB and general rules. Cygor; same...but at least can throw a stone....and misfire. If any of these were cheaper, they'd be fine. But 1-2 100 ish point cannons taking them out on round 1 makes it null and void when you can have a cheaper unit do it's job better (minos, harpies etc...)

For WoC: easily the Forsaken. That and I'm tempted to say chariots and demonic mounts. Demonic mounts as you can no longer get LoS rolls. Though, i suppose they're ok for lone rangers?
Chariots: why pay so much for an army with incredibly high I? WoC have amazing choices for that category and this just robs of a lot of options.


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

sorry but i still hold that skrox units have nothing on saurus units a saurus unit is t4 all round meaning they don't die against a stiff breeze


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

Cheese meister said:


> sorry but i still hold that skrox units have nothing on saurus units a saurus unit is t4 all round meaning they don't die against a stiff breeze


Neither do the krox because they have Skinks that will die before them, before they fall they will most likely put a mean punch in anyones grill.


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## Pugmonkey1 (Nov 3, 2009)

For Lizardmen, the most useless unit is Jungle Swarms. Skrox, Cold Ones, even Razordons have their uses, but I have never seen Jungle Swarms hit the table. They're not completely terrible, but there are so many better options for the cost.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Cheese meister said:


> sorry but i still hold that skrox units have nothing on saurus units a saurus unit is t4 all round meaning they don't die against a stiff breeze


Well, if you run lore of life, those skinks can become T4/6 very quickly. It's all a matter of how you use them. Really, the skinks are there to keep the Kroxigor alive. Place them on the flank, smack them into the enemy's side, and maybe even use all that lovely poison shooting to take out a warmachine or two. Against all but the most dedicated combat units they should hold up just fine.



Pugmonkey1 said:


> For Lizardmen, the most useless unit is Jungle Swarms. Skrox, Cold Ones, even Razordons have their uses, but I have never seen Jungle Swarms hit the table. They're not completely terrible, but there are so many better options for the cost.


Ha, good point. Actually, I don't think that Jungle Swarms are that bad- it's just that they fill a niche that really doesn't need filling. You can use them to hold up units that might give you trouble- except that there's not much that swarms can stand up to that Saurus can't.

I think that in no small part the reason you don't see jungle swarms is because of their financial cost- $25 for two bases? considering you'd pretty much need a minimum of four for them to be effective- no thanks. Although they'd make some pretty sexy bases...

Meanwhile, Cold One Cavary technically does have a place- unfortunately for them they cost way too much, and their place can easily be filled by either Stegadons or Kroxiskink units.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

For the Empire it's got to be the volleygun, It used to be 1 of the best most feared artillery pieces in the game able to destroy whole units, Then it got 10 points cheaper but became half as effective but you needed to waste a character slot on an engineer to give it any chance to hit, Now in this edition you can have plenty of Engineers but thanks to dropping the extra crewman rule it's still bs3 which makes it useless when compared to the steamtank or rocket battery and probably the flaggellants too although they're fairly crap too.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Pugmonkey1 said:


> For Lizardmen, the most useless unit is Jungle Swarms. Skrox, Cold Ones, even Razordons have their uses, but I have never seen Jungle Swarms hit the table. They're not completely terrible, but there are so many better options for the cost.


Damn I hate jungle swarms- I've only played them 4 times and twice they've killed my slavegiant (the second time was a rematch- I wanted to prove it was a fluke... and failed ).

For Ogres I would definately say Yhettes... 3D6 pursue in 7th and magic weapons was just about worth it, but in 8th all they get is magic weapons and strider, which for their cost is rubbish (I even got them to charge a unit of 3 wraiths and I got utterly trounced- not good for my 'perfect counter' unit).
... another rival to yhettes would be Gresus Goldtooth.. not a unit as such but he's still utterly terrible.


Out of my other armies the only thing I can think if that "shouldn't" be used is the WE spellsinger... but I normally ue one anyway. They give you a Lv2 mage with utterly rubbish magic, but does at least give you a +2 to dispel- I much prefer taking a spellweaver with Lv4, wand of wych elm (can re-roll dispel attempts) and lore of life... but its finding the points for it.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

WOC Forsaken.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

All I really know well are Ogres, Orcs & Goblins, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons.

Yeah, Yhetees are bad right now, but if we're going 'point for point', I have to say that Maneaters aren't good either. They're indeed powerful, but good lord are they expensive, and not that difficult to kill through shooting. 

I've never seen giants do much in any army. They're just to easy to single out and kill. Some of the Beastmen versions seem alright, although still quite expensive.

Likewise, most chariots aren't very good either these days, for any army. The initial impact is great, but they can't break blocks of troops in close combat anymore. Cavalry, skirmishers, and scouts are almost always better choices.

Goblin archers aren't very good at all. For just a small amount more, you can get Orc archers, which are better in just about every conceivable way. I like goblins, but you need to keep them in tight blocks, not in rows for shooting.

Chaos Warrior Forsaken are indeed quite bad. Chosen are alright though, if given the magic item 'favour of the gods'.

Just about all the greater daemons are overcosted, considering how easy it is for cannons or the right spell to take them out with one shot. Kairos and the Great Unclean One are really the only ones I'd even consider taking.

I'm not impressed by Fiends of Slaanesh or Beasts of Nurgle either. Bloodcrushers and Flamers of Tzeentch are simply far better rare choices.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Have to say I love the slavegiant... he's not as good as other giants but he is cheaper, means he makes a very good bullet magnet... and still manages to pack quite a punch too (especially funny when falling over manages to kill your target )
Giants and chariots are both pretty decent as flankers, helping to win combats... but they aren't going to do it alone- as with most things its baout how you use them.

I certainly agree about maneaters though- they are ok as 'lesser spotted gorgers' but a unit of them is ridiculously expensive.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

As much as I love my maneater squad 'The Great Debate' (Pirate, Paymaster and Ninja  ), have to admit I need to rename them The Magnets as most everything seems to go for and try to kill them.... Still... couple of cathay longswords on them and I'm happy when they get into combat.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

WoC - Chaos Ogres. Dragon Ogres and Trolls fill both of their rolls better and have useful Special Rules. Forsaken, Chariots, and Chaos Knights also rank up there. ASF Giants and Shaggoths are useful, but less so thanks to Shit rules for Terror, and General/BSB Bubbles, and in combat Steadfast means that they're useless.

Orcs and Goblins - Spider Riders (as opposed to Wolf Riders and Boar Cav are cheap enough to be both taken and not require a mid way unit) and normal Orcs (Savage Orc Spears and Black Orc Great Weapons do each job as needed).

Bretonnians - Grail Knights - too expensive, and Questing Knights are far better, as they can get S6 in all rounds. Also, Grail Wardens for the Enchantress as well - they go against your Lord choices. Oh, and Mounted Squires, utter useless.

Empire - Grand Masters - too expensive, and gets eaten by any other Combat Character far too easily. Bonus isn't that great, and is extremely situational as you can often still be within the 12", and foes outside of this area requiring a GM+Knight unit is often capable of holding their own against both.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> As much as I love my maneater squad 'The Great Debate' (Pirate, Paymaster and Ninja  ), have to admit I need to rename them The Magnets as most everything seems to go for and try to kill them.... Still... couple of cathay longswords on them and I'm happy when they get into combat.


Yeah... but they are as hard to kill as ironguts and nearly twice the price, unless people start feeling sorry for you they shouldn't really manage to reach combat (unless you play other ogres).
I do have to admit that I use the paymaster a lot... but then I do use him as my BSB  what ogre would run when there's cash on the line..?


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## Sarcasm (Nov 23, 2008)

DrinCalhar said:


> CSM
> Summoned Lesser Daemons
> Chaos Dreadnought - After you pop your own LR, you know better.


Yeah, those units should never be used in _Fantasy_.

Tomb Kings Skeleton Heavy Horsemen shouldn't be used. Heavy cavalry with a 4+ armour save, that are unable to march and have rubbish characteristics. Not a great investment in my opinion.

The Light Horsemen aren't very impressive either; light cavalry with can't march or flee is a bit pointless.


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## Hans Richter (Dec 24, 2010)

For me it's Empire Greatswords. ASL from their weapons cancels out the special rule they have. Add to that their armor save and knowing that your opponent will go after them with S4+ melee/shooting/magic and they rarely arrive en force to do anything.

Seems you almost have to get Birona's Timewarp and Speed of Light off on them to make them worthy.

I rarely see them in Empire player's lists.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Dwarf slayers, I want to love them, I really do! They look awesome! However T4, 1 wound, no armour for a 12/13 point model. Every time I deploy them someone will use a poison banner...bad times.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Empire Huntmen - They have absoloutly no use IMO. 

High Elves - Great eagle. What can 1 CaCaw CaCaw tookie tookie bird do? Take a dump on the enemies head? Probably be more effective to be honest. And people who say "Disruption unit" are idiots - considering that can be ignored by a leadership and almost every army and their mums has a BSB to re roll it.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

effigy22 said:


> High Elves - Great eagle. What can 1 CaCaw CaCaw tookie tookie bird do? Take a dump on the enemies head? Probably be more effective to be honest. And people who say "Disruption unit" are idiots - considering that can be ignored by a leadership and almost every army and their mums has a BSB to re roll it.


Ever heard of flank charges and warmachine hunting?


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Elven Eagles are great for harassing war machines and drawing fire away from your more valuable unit. It's win/win either way. Either they don't get shot, and do damage, or they do get shot, and take pressure off your more expensive units.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

To right, what moron would use Fenrisian Wolves in Fantasy?

As to - Greatswords, and Great Eagles - you're doing them wrong. Greatswords are awesome. They strike after most units they're called upon to counter anyway, so ASL doesn't matter, Step Up and Supporting Attacks often means they're getting in a decent number of attacks.

Great Eagles - small base size, Flyers, and cheap as chips - threats to War Machine use, and Archers. Stopping a 100pt Cannon or Template Weapon from targetting some Dragon/Infantry unit is damn worth it, as with two attacks, you guarantee it won't be able to fire next turn.


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## Hans Richter (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't think it's a matter of me doing them wrong as it is more a matter of them being targeted by the S4+ magic/shooting/melee that they draw. Especially since most opponents know their point cost. By the time they do get to melee they are a fraction of the size/number they started out at.

And despite that attention opponents somehow seem to have enough force to contend with the rest of the Empire force.:shok:

That said, I may give them another shot as part of a 500pt scouting force for a campaign that is coming up pretty soon.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I dont use high elves, i play empire and there seems to be A LOT of HE players at my local. All of them use a great eagle or 2 and its one of the most useless things in the army. 

So whether they are using them wrong or whatever, i stick by my opinion!  (Great eagles used as mounts however are excellent)


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

for the VC's;

utterly useless:
Zombies - why spend hundreds of pts when a simple casting of undead hoard + invos from cheap necros can build you a monstrous unit that gives away less than 60VP's?!!
oh, and T2 is crap...

Dire Wolves - yay! we pts for being fast cav, but we aren't anymore... *sigh* too expensive, don't count towards core minimums and only S3 with 1 attack = poop. I can send fell bats or a unit of black knights to do their job now.

Bat Swarms - swarms without poison attacks are useless in general. T2/4 wound swarms are even more useless... oh, and they don't count for core minimums obviously!

Corpse Carts - sure miasma is nice. but even necro carts can't join units anymore, count towards your hero pts limit and are only T4 with an almighty S2 thunder stomp! for the pts, we can simply invest in far better choices like cheap necros or forbidden lore vamps...

Spirit Hosts - they're okay, but for their pts, why invest in a swarm when you can bulk up your much nastier grave guard? besides, if ethereal stuff is what a VC player is after, wraiths are much deadlier, and then there's the silliness that becomes the black coach.


well, that's my take the VC end of things. it's no wonder that VC army's typically look the same with almost half our options being so pointless.
cheers!


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## steamius (Dec 9, 2010)

high elves. Phoenix guard, too powerful.


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