# Size of Chapter Fleets



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Right, so basically I am rewriting my homebrew chapter and making them into a chapter which specializes in void warfare, specifically combating traitor marine fleets. This means I am going to need a fleet which is slightly above average size. However, therein lies my issue, which is that I have no idea how large a chapter fleet should be. So, to remedy that, I was wondering if anyone here had a fleet registry for a chapter fleet. Specifically, how many barges, strike cruisers, frigates and escort craft I should be looking at. Now, I know barges number about 3-4 per chapter, but I don't know about the other classes, so if you guys could help I would really appreciate it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well the Ultramarines fleet (circa. 3rd Ed.) stands at 3 Battle Barges, 8 Strike Cruisers, 12 Rapid Strike Vessels, and 32 Thunder Hawks- so possibly scale that up in terms of the smaller vessels (or possibly just the classification of ship type) but leave the larger ships around that number?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah, that sounds good to me. Thanks, Baron.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Do you think you will increase your chapter asartes size similarly to the Black Templar but obviously not as big?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm not quite sure how I am going to do it, but I think I might go with 3-4 designated void companies, who will have above above average size, and then around 9 companies who would function as standard companies with roughly average numbers. Because of this, I am thinking somewhere around 1500 hundred marines, but I am not sure.

EDIT: Honestly, I am still on the world building stage, so I don't really have anything specific down.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Wouldn't your chapter be more along the lines of a specialist boarding force? i.e. lots of Terminators and Assault Rams/Torpedos? 

I just think you'd have to have a fairly big Imperial Navy contingent to be able to take on Chaos fleets.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

In Battlefleet Gothic it states that a Space Marine Chapter usually requires roughly a company worth of Marines for its standard ship board complement across the fleet- whether a company is dedicated to that role or it's an ad-hoc depends largely on the Master of the Fleet and the Chapter.

Thought it might be helpful if you knew how many Marines would be present in the average Adeptus Astartes fleet so you could scale up from there


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Wouldn't your chapter be more along the lines of a specialist boarding force? i.e. lots of Terminators and Assault Rams/Torpedos?
> 
> I just think you'd have to have a fairly big Imperial Navy contingent to be able to take on Chaos fleets.


Well Battle Barge is an identifier of a large tonnage SM vessel rather than a ship class (same for Strike Cruisers I would imagine)- for example the Space Wolves use an Emperor-Class Battleship as their flagship 'Battle Barge', so it might be possible for his Chapter to have requisitioned a handful of suitable ships.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ah ok I didn't know that, I thought a Battle Barge was a particular type of hull
Sounds like a great concept. I'll follow this development with interest.

There is a good list of the ships of a fleet in the BRB if that helps?
In the Third Armageddon War section.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

_The Emperor's Gift_ puts the size of the Red Hunters battle fleet at 20 vessels, though the Space Wolves appear to have a slightly larger fleet than that. William King's _Grey Hunter_, on the other hand, puts the Space Wolves fleet at around 12 vessels: one for each Great Company. Perhaps the losses of the Wolves during the Months of Shame (as te Grey Knights know the post-Armageddon period), along with other losses (like the _Wolf of Fenris_ to Red Corsair hands) helped shrink the fleet to that size—or the old source is contradicted by the new one.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Look up the Imperial Armour volumes covering the Badab War (volumes 9 and 10 to be specific). They list the fleet strengths of the Chapters fighting in the war.

Usually a Chapter has 1-3 battle barges, up to 8 strike cruisers, and up to 25 strike craft (frigates and the like, though the Astral Claws had more, but they cheated a bit to get that high).

I'd hazard a typical, full strength, Chapter would run around 2 battle barges, 5 strike cruisers, and 14 escorts.

Then again, the Fire Hawks Chapter had two battle barges, 7 strike cruisers, over 30 escort and tender vessels, and the massive star fortress _Raptorus Rex_ and the book says that this is "well in excess of what might be expected of two more commonly outfitted Chapters". How much the _Raptorus Rex_ makes up of this double is a good question...



Baron Spikey said:


> Well Battle Barge is an identifier of a large tonnage SM vessel rather than a ship class


There seems to be a "standard" battle barge. The Carcharodons fielded in their fleet a "battle-barge of non-standard pattern".



Baron Spikey said:


> Well Battle Barge is an identifier of a large tonnage SM vessel rather than a ship class (same for Strike Cruisers I would imagine)



In ADB's _Soul Hunter_ we're told that Strike Cruisers are a STC pattern.

The Fire Hawks, though, in the Badab war did have Strike Cruisers of "varying classes". I'd assume that either 1. There are a few different STC patterns for Strike Cruisers (like Leman Russes) or 2. _Some_ Strike Cruisers are STC, while others are not. 

I personally lean towards 1. Though the galaxy is a wide place, I'm sure some vessels have been taken and converted into a Strike Cruiser equivalent. For the most part, I assume Strike Cruisers are STC vessels.

A lot of the Chapters in the Badab war ran around with "vanguard cruisers", whatever the heck those are. I'd figure something between a light and regular cruiser.

Still, I don't think Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge are simply weight designations. Otherwise the Executioners's _Night Hag _would have been designated a Strike Cruiser as well, but it's not.

I'd guess weight as well as capabilities makes a ship a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser. 



Baron Spikey said:


> the Space Wolves use an Emperor-Class Battleship as their flagship 'Battle Barge', so it might be possible for his Chapter to have requisitioned a handful of suitable ships.


That's shocking. The Imperial Navy has its panties all twisted up over Chapters having _Nova_ class frigates. An Emperor battleship isn't really an assault ship. It's more of a heavily armed and armored carrier.

Could you provide a source for this?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

hailene said:


> That's shocking. The Imperial Navy has its panties all twisted up over Chapters having _Nova_ class frigates. An Emperor battleship isn't really an assault ship. It's more of a heavily armed and armored carrier.
> 
> Could you provide a source for this?


Seconded, I don't remember that, but I'm usually wrong anyway :blush:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

hailene said:


> There seems to be a "standard" battle barge. The Carcharodons fielded in their fleet a "battle-barge of non-standard pattern".


 That was my understanding of the situation as well.
I view it as a reverse to Sellotape/Scotch Tape (specific brands of adhesive tapes now used as a moniker for all adhesive tapes), despite the fact that name began life refering to a generic hull tonnage the name has become so predominant in usage of a certain ship type as to be virtually it's only designation.


hailene said:


> In ADB's _Soul Hunter_ we're told that Strike Cruisers are a STC pattern.
> 
> The Fire Hawks, though, in the Badab war did have Strike Cruisers of "varying classes". I'd assume that either 1. There are a few different STC patterns for Strike Cruisers (like Leman Russes) or 2. _Some_ Strike Cruisers are STC, while others are not.


 Good to know, I wasn't sure myself.




hailene said:


> Still, I don't think Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge are simply weight designations. Otherwise the Executioners's _Night Hag _would have been designated a Strike Cruiser as well, but it's not.
> 
> I'd guess weight as well as capabilities makes a ship a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser.
> 
> ...


The Space Marine Fleets add-on for Battlefleet Gothic.
Here's a couple of quotes:



Battlefleet Gothic Space Marine Fleets said:


> A battle barge is not a class of vessel, but rather it is the name given to any vessel configured to fulfil the role of battle barge. Because of this, it is theoretically possible for any large capital ship to fulfil the role of battle barge, although the specially designed battle barges are by far the most common example.





Battlefleet Gothic Space Marine Fleets said:


> The Space Wolves, a traditionally minded Chapter, more immersed in the customs of its homeworld than most Chapters and with access to only the most rudimentary of shipyards, are perhaps the best known example of this, relying, as they do, on an Emperor class battleship to fulfil the role of battle barge


Upon further searching- before finishing this post- I found the Strike Cruiser page from Battlefleet Gothic: Armada stating a similar thing for Strike Cruisers, that whilst the majority are what we would call a 'standard' class it's actually a term referring to...


> ...a broad range of different Space Marine vessels used for largely similar tasks.


It then then goes on to state what characteristics are needed to be a Strike Cruiser, large transport capacity, swift etc.
It even shows an example of a Grey Knights Strike Cruiser and a normal Space Marine Chapters most common Crusier class- other than the distinctive forward side shields they could not look more different.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Originally Posted by Battlefleet Gothic Space Marine Fleets
> The Space Wolves, a traditionally minded Chapter, more immersed in the customs of its homeworld than most Chapters and with access to only the most rudimentary of shipyards, are perhaps the best known example of this, relying, as they do, on an Emperor class battleship to fulfil the role of battle barge


Ah, cools. Thanks for that


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe that information is repeated somewhere in Rogue Trader somewhere. Anyway, it does seem that while Strike Cruisers configuration seems to be more set in stone, the Battle Barge does seem to fluctuate. The Emperors battleship was also referred to as a battle barge, as was the Vengeful Spirit, which was/is a battleship, if I remember right. 

Anyway, on to another question, how would the admech feel about marines modifying existing imperial battleship designs? I know it has been done before, but what would their reaction be to it?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Space Wolves, a traditionally minded Chapter, more immersed in the customs of its homeworld than most Chapters and with access to only the most rudimentary of shipyards, are perhaps the best known example of this, relying, as they do, on an Emperor class battleship to fulfil the role of battle barge


Pretty crazy! Though if anyone was to do it, I'd guess the SWs would be the ones to do it. Codex Astartes, Codex Mestartes, right?

I wonder if this battle barge has been mentioned in any of the SW novels or other sources. 



Baron Spikey said:


> It even shows an example of a Grey Knights Strike Cruiser and a normal Space Marine Chapters most common Crusier class- other than the distinctive forward side shields they could not look more different.


I would hesitate on stating that strike cruisers differ significantly based upon their looks.

The looks may, for example, be completely cosmetic. Most Chapters probably want their ships to look intimidating to cow some of their opponents. The Grey Knights are a secretive Chapter. They wouldn't want to look like another strike cruiser if possible, so even if someone familiar with SM strike cruisers saw their vessel, he or she may not immediately be able to identify it as a Adeptus Astartes vessel.



gen.ahab said:


> The Emperors battleship was also referred to as a battle barge, as was the Vengeful Spirit, which was/is a battleship, if I remember right.


The Vengeful Spirit was in service before the implementation (or, heck, creation) of the Codex Astartes. It wouldn't really count for our purposes, I think.

Though you are right. In the book _Flight of the Eisenstein_ the _Vengeful Spirit_ is referred to as a "barge".



gen.ahab said:


> Anyway, on to another question, how would the admech feel about marines modifying existing imperial battleship designs? I know it has been done before, but what would their reaction be to it?


Probably nothing too extreme. Space Marines have been known to tamper with designs on the fly. Just look to the Land Raider.

We know the Black Templar's main battle barge is heavily modified. In the Imperial Armours covering the Badab war, one of the Chapters were said to have especially powerful battle barges.

I'd imagine most Chapters wouldn't be capable of modifying their own ships to such an extent. They'd probably have to rely on Ad Mech support in the first place to enhance their vessels.

If anyone got really pissed, I'd think it'd be the Imperial Navy.

Not unless they completely neutered the battleship in terms of void fighting capability. Still, even if they do have complaints (like the Nova anti-ship frigates), no one is going to call out a Chapter on it unless they've done something "bad". And then it just becomes a convenient excuse. Or one more excuse, at any rate, to bring the hammer down on the Chapter.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Have you checked out all the Battlefleet Gothic stuff gen ? It is a free download off the GW site.

There is a tonne of info so maybe some of the background you need will be in there?

From the bit that I have read the battle Barges and Strike Cruisers tend to be ships that are optimised for orbital landings and troop support, as you'd expect. While they can prosecute boarding actions etc they're not really equipped for ship to ship "fleet action"


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think that it's quite clear - from novels and BFG material alike - that "battle barge" and "strike cruiser" are both terms to be used to describe a vessel serving that purpose AND types of templates/ship classes built for that purpose.

That is, there have been classes of vessels going back to the Great Crusade that were built specifically for planetary assault/delivering Space Marines. That having been said, several Chapters have recquisitioned different classes of vessels to substitute for "traditional" battle barges and strike cruisers for one reason or another. Two specific examples of this are the Space Wolves, with their Emperor-class battleship, and the Carcharodons - whose Chapter fleet is ...



> (pg 117 of Imperial Armour 10) "... extensive but inconsistent in makeup, and within its libe of battle were numerous example of vessels either very ancient, salvaged, or extensively repaired, including one battle barge, the _Nicor_ which was based on the hull of a Charibdys class grand cruiser ..."


So it really comes down to a balance between the resources a Chapter can call upon (either from its own planetary fief or from its allies within the greater Imperium) and what it can get away with (such as taking captured vessels and integrating them in its fleet).


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> So it really comes down to a balance between the resources a Chapter can call upon (either from its own planetary fief or from its allies within the greater Imperium) and what it can get away with (such as taking captured vessels and integrating them in its fleet).


And I would imagine the Chapters own attitudes too. As the Charcarodons/Space Sharks don't seem to give a fig about popular opinion


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> _The Emperor's Gift_ puts the size of the Red Hunters battle fleet at 20 vessels, though the Space Wolves appear to have a slightly larger fleet than that. William King's _Grey Hunter_, on the other hand, puts the Space Wolves fleet at around 12 vessels: one for each Great Company. Perhaps the losses of the Wolves during the Months of Shame (as te Grey Knights know the post-Armageddon period), along with other losses (like the _Wolf of Fenris_ to Red Corsair hands) helped shrink the fleet to that size—or the old source is contradicted by the new one.


Maybe it's capital ships that the latter statement refers to? It makes sense for each company to have no more than a battle barge, but I'm sure they have more escort vessels than that.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Agreed, Sturmovic. I think the Space Wolves, as a First Founding Chapter, probably had the normal number of battle barges/equivalents and powerful vessels serving as strike cruisers. Ragnar's Wolf Lord, for instance, Berek Thunderfist, had a re-configured Mars-class battlecruiser (Nova Cannon and all), and I think it was referred to as a strike cruiser.


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