# Who killed Sanguinius, Emperor, Horus?



## thegamer25 (Mar 21, 2009)

In this thread and the posts within, i shall debate the truth about who killed who...


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## thegamer25 (Mar 21, 2009)

*Examine the picture*

Now then, take a look at the painting of the emperor and Horus at the showdown...

What weapons do the two might warriors weild?

The emporer- A Power claw of some variety, and a sword.

Horus- The claw of Horus( some sort of power claw), and a large hammer of some sort.

Now then, you now know what weapons are being weilded. Now take a careful look a the body of Sanguinius. Take a REALLY CLOSE, and i mean REALLY CLOSE, look at the wound on the right side of the chest.
I am going to assume you have noticed that there is no way, no way at all that a hammer could inflict a wound like that. Now then, that means that Horus killed him with his claw. But if he used a claw, doesnt that mean there should be more than one wound, more than one wound that looks the same?
Now look at it again, look at what direction the armour is bent in. It appears as though he was stabbed from behind. Look where the emperor is standing. Look at his weapons, again. Sanguinius was evidently stabbed from behind, with a sword. 
If you have not yet managed to realise that it is the emperor that killed him, 
then i suggest you hit yourself several times over with a very large book...


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## gwmaniac (Sep 1, 2008)

Sorry, bud, but this is in the wrong section. Perhaps you'd get more feedback on the Fluff section.  

By the way, Welcome to Heresy.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Moved to The Fluff Forum.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I was kicking around some fluff where the Emperor killed Sanguinius, because Horus, at the fatal moment, had convinced Sanguinius that he was right, and then there was a big 'cover up'. In my version, this is why the Death Company go mad and want to die.

There's a bit about it here, though actually it doesn't tell you anything that I haven't just mentioned...

:sanguine cyclops:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Horus killed Sanguinius, the Emperor then killed Horus but not before being fatally wounded himself, he is effectively now dead himself (at least physically)

Simple :good:

(The Picture did not intend to produce speculation)


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

To be honest, I don't believe all the conspiracies about the Emperor are true. GW has based the whole W40k universe on him and they aren't going to alienate players/fans with major plot twists when the game is doing so well in its current state. Speculation can be fun, but in this case I believe the existing story about the emperor's motives are straightforward and genuine.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

thegamer25 said:


> Now then, take a look at the painting of the emperor and Horus at the showdown...
> 
> What weapons do the two might warriors weild?
> 
> ...


hahahha. if i had the picture and the book i would have. That sounds quite right. I mean both primarchs were close. And the emperor would stab in the back. He good at that stuff. Kudoes to you!:good:


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

Sanguinius and the Emperor beamed aboard Horus's ship and went charging for the bridge. Sanguinius got there first, and challenged Horus. They fought and Horus, now even more powerful thanks to his dealings with the Warp, slew Sanguinius moments before the Emperor got there. The Emperor then challenged Horus, the two fought, and the Emperor won. He had taken too much damage to himself thanks to holding back against his son, and "died". That's what canon has looked like to me. I HEAR NOTHING ABOUT OTHER THEORIES!!! ALL HAIL THE GOLDEN THRONE! THE EMPEROR REIGNS SUPREME! ANYTHING ELSE IS HERESY AND SHALL BE BURNED WITH THE HOLY LIGHT OF IMPERIAL TRUTH UNTIL IT IS NO MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No, but seriously... a cover up? That would really suck.

I think what would be actually interesting here is that Sanguinius is killed by Horus, The Emperor rushes in, goes Angry Marine, FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU's Horus into the ground, and then as a last retort before escaping to the Warp, one or more of the Warp gods manifests some bit of itself and tears the shite outta the Emperor in his weakened state after fighting Horus. Emperor "dies", but is actually being rejuvenated into a clone body. The Golden Throne is sucking out all his memories, power, and sheer awesome, and is translating it into something even better. When he's finally ready, he's gonna ressurect all the loyal Primarchs and kick the shite outta the Warp, come home, and beat the Ecclesiarchy to death with its own idols, restore Imperial Secular Truth, and finish off the Great Crusade.

While I know this would never happen, and GW will never admit it, I like to think that that ending would be what should happen.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

That's actually a pretty compelling bit of reasoning there, plus you'll also notice how similar the eye of horus symbols and sanguinius's blood angels symbol look in this particular image....very interesting....

Not that that might mean much, I mean this bit of artwork might just be a chaos sympathisers artistic vision  who knows?


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

That is...too...cliche. 

The emperor reserecting himself and all the loyal primarchs, it ruins the point of them all dieing. A cooler ending would be humanity uniting and assaulting the Eye of Terror as one(maybe even with Tau and Eldar allies, just this once) At the same time, the Emperor's spirit goes ape shit in the warp and battles his way and faces down the Chaos gods 4 vs 1. Imperial, Tau and Eldar forces maange to defeat the traitor primarchs and Addadon in a massive battle, because the chaos gods are abttling the crazy ape shit emperor. The battle ends in the Eye of Terror, with the good guys victorious(and horribly bloodied) and then they withdrawl from the eye of terror. The emperor manages to slay the four chaos gods, obliterating them from existance, before finally being absorbed into the warp himself. However, with the warp in balane now, we don't ened the lighthosue that was the emperor. The taugo back to their empire, the eldar disappear from exsistence forever( who knows where) and man returns to battling their other enemies, reuniting the Imperium again.

On the picture, 
A) That is an epic pitcture firstly. 
B) Horus slew sanguinis. In fact, if i'm not mistaken, didn't he do it with his psyker abilities?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Actually I could see that maybe, the emperor thought it best to kill all the primarchs. It seemed as though he might have thought it was probably better when he had not given such power to almost only a couple dozen people. So maybe he was trying to kill them all off. But thats the only thing i can think of if even the smallest possibility is true


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

and i dont think its cliche persae. One thing thats very interesting is that almost every loyal primarch is dead.
such chapters are following
Dark Angels- Lion El' Johnson/either that or theres huge speculation that he is infact rogue and just temporarly loyal
Iron Hands- Ferrus Mannus
Blood Angels- Saguinius
Ultra Marines-Roboute Guillemen
Raven Guard-Corrax
Imperial Fists- Rogal Dorn
all...DEAD!
and the two chaos legions that joined for the survival of the the empyream also are dead
Alpharius-Alpha Legion
Night Haunter- Night Lords

this is all really weird. So we have Vulkan, Leman Russ, and Jaghaiti plus a corpse on a golden toilet vs the rest rest of chaos, which have all the primarchs intact. I think warhammer is killing all the loyal ones off for a reason unknown but to blow us away.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Ultra Marines-Roboute Guillemen
Dark Angels- Lion El' Johnson
Imperial Fists- Rogal Dorn

Roboute is in statis and while he would die if not, is not dead. Lion is missing, presumed to be in the middle of the Rock. Dorn was never confirmed dead, they just found his finger. Also while Alpharus is dead, Omegus is speculated to be living (or visa versa). Lastly keep in mind that 1K sons where loyal until the Space Puppies were sent after them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

thousands were did not join chaos for the right reason though. They could have just become renegade and been a pissed off child roaming around. But Magnus the Red didn't; he likes "playing with fire." Not that he wasn't justified in becoming traitor. Because a lot of the legions were justified. So I do give sympathy. The only problem with "justification," is that thats all it really is. The only thing that you can say about the thousand sons and the other legions is that they are not doing it for the emperor and the empyream as like Night Haunter and Alpharius planned to help the emperor and the empyream as a pond of chaos. I know right its fricken irony.
As to this theory about these primarchs not being confirmed. There is soo much fuss going around about how this primarch or these primarchs could not be dead. I personally pretty much try to ignore the bullshit. They are dead so i try not to complicate things for people.


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## LOKI_DE (Dec 30, 2008)

I like the idea of the emperor killing sangiunius because tht gives me a story on which to base a chaos blood angels army, that the blood angels want revenge for sangiunius's murder and succumb to the black rage and khorne, which give me a reason for a mass bezerker army.  also ive looked at tht painting and if it was a claw wound his side would have been ripped off ,not just wounded.


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

Corax isn't known to have died, he took a ship into the Eye of Terror.


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

The only confirmed deaths are Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, and Horus. That's it. The rest of them are mysteriously on the sidelines waiting for closure.


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## Bolshavic (Dec 8, 2008)

BLvice said:


> To be honest, I don't believe all the conspiracies about the Emperor are true. GW has based the whole W40k universe on him and they aren't going to alienate players/fans with major plot twists when the game is doing so well in its current state. Speculation can be fun, but in this case I believe the existing story about the emperor's motives are straightforward and genuine.



sorry hate to dispute ur view here but according to all the back ground and literature that GW has produced in its codexes, black library and non main stream games, is that the 40k world is not black and white but various shades of grey, ie how many chapters have been declared heretics over a small disagreement/ fall out with some one in power ect ect ect or how many inquisitors have gone rouge? GW has made the imperium to be 1 of bureaucratic corruption, with its greatest enemy being it self.

Now on who killed that mutant? lol :grin: suffer not the unclean to live. It could have been the emperor for so many reasons as been discussed, little lone to make him a martyr that who in death changed the coarse of the war would he have been so important if he had lived.
Also remember cypher the greatest of the free fallen angels? Now does he hold the truth when he says Lion will forgive him? Now a different part of the same story or another story all together, and why did the emperor demand that the wolves lay waste to the thousand sons, who were loyal and on the verge of learning the secrets of chaos them selves?


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

The Imperium as we know it now and the Imperium as it was are two completely different things.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Ultra Marines-Roboute Guillemen
> Dark Angels- Lion El' Johnson
> Imperial Fists- Rogal Dorn
> 
> Roboute is in statis and while he would die if not, is not dead. Lion is missing, presumed to be in the middle of the Rock. Dorn was never confirmed dead, they just found his finger. Also while Alpharus is dead, Omegus is speculated to be living (or visa versa). Lastly keep in mind that 1K sons where loyal until the Space Puppies were sent after them.


Dorn's whole body is encased in an amber block, save his fists. I'm pretty sure he's dead.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> Dorn's whole body is encased in an amber block, save his fists. I'm pretty sure he's dead.


Indeed, according to Index Astartes II Dorn is dead - and as you said His body is encased in Amber, so yea hes pretty dead!

Guilliman is frozen in the instant of death, (poisoned by Fulgrim.) - as soon as the statis shield is turned off he will simply die. 

Corax (after committing Heresy! :good was last seen heading to the Eye of Terror. 

Russ was also seen heading to the Great eye

We don't know where Vulkan went, but hes gone!

The Lion is 'asleep' in the Rock

Khan got lost in the webway

--------------

So Ferrus Manus, Sanguinus, Rogal Dorn, are dead for sure.

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There are NO confirmed Traitor Primarchs killed (Apart from Horus)

Even the Ultramarines challenge the validity of Alpharius' death, given the nature of the Alpha legion it is likely he is still alive - and even if he isn't Omegon still is, so essentially the Primarch is still alive. 

We also didn't see the Night Haunters death. As the Vid-feed cut out, hes presumed dead but we don't know for sure. 

And the rest are daemon-princes.


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

So the loyalists have at least 5 possible left, with another 2 if there's a way to get Dorn outta the amber, and heal up Guilliman without using something Chaosy like they did with Horus). Am I getting that right?


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

in _Lord of the Night_, Zahaal says he watched Curze get killed because he was ordered to.

it's near impossible for me to believe that the Emp killed the Angel because i always read (and heard) that the Angel was dead by the time the Emp reached Horus.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

revenant13 said:


> in _Lord of the Night_, Zahaal says he watched Curze get killed because he was ordered to.
> 
> it's near impossible for me to believe that the Emp killed the Angel because i always read (and heard) that the Angel was dead by the time the Emp reached Horus.


wow really?... Of course everyone thought the emperor killed horus. We are just evaluating the look of the pic. It does look pretty valid, if i must say. As to there being five primarchs alive... Thats also not that accurate. Some say that Lion El Johnson is actually dead. That dude is tricky but i heard fluff from him. Its hard to say what actually happened to him when luther (who wasnt even really a space marine kicked his fricken ass. Anyhow, so thats tricky, plus the fact that if you actually hear the rogue side of his chapter it will also question whether his loyalty really lies for the emperor or whether hes just doing it for now. So I say take him out of the loyal primarchs.

Besides that though you have vulkan, jaghati, russ, and.... corax. But I actually heard somewhere that theres a good chance he got killed somehow, isn't that why he doesn't have his talons anymore? Can anyone elaborate on that?


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## inquisitoryorei (Nov 25, 2007)

the picture that "started" this discussion was illustrated after the story was writen. obviously the artist was not overly concerned with 100% acurate depiction. 

Either way, Sanguinius knew he was going to die, and who was going to kill him, but he showed up anyway. was it for the best or was it from shear anger at knowing he was going to die? you decide.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Corax. But I actually heard somewhere that theres a good chance he got killed somehow, isn't that why he doesn't have his talons anymore? Can anyone elaborate on that?


After sulking in his tower on Deliverance for a year and a day (because he tampered with his legions gene-seed, creating monsters, and commiting heresy!) he left and was last seen heading towards the Eye of Terror, his last recorded words were "Never More". So he could be dead, he could not be.

Kayvaan Shrike currently wields the Raven Talons which were said to be crafted by Corax not necessarily worn by him. But just because someone else has his weapons doesn't mean hes dead :good:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i usually skip the bs, I think Abadon pimp slapped and killed him. So theres pretty much only three primarchs that the emperor could actually call upon and know that they would come for sure


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Bolshavic said:


> sorry hate to dispute ur view here but according to all the back ground and literature that GW has produced in its codexes, black library and non main stream games, is that the 40k world is not black and white but various shades of grey, ie how many chapters have been declared heretics over a small disagreement/ fall out with some one in power ect ect ect or how many inquisitors have gone rouge? GW has made the imperium to be 1 of bureaucratic corruption, with its greatest enemy being it self.
> 
> Now on who killed that mutant? lol :grin: suffer not the unclean to live. It could have been the emperor for so many reasons as been discussed, little lone to make him a martyr that who in death changed the coarse of the war would he have been so important if he had lived.
> Also remember cypher the greatest of the free fallen angels? Now does he hold the truth when he says Lion will forgive him? Now a different part of the same story or another story all together, and why did the emperor demand that the wolves lay waste to the thousand sons, who were loyal and on the verge of learning the secrets of chaos them selves?


If you listen to the Cannon Fluff the reason they tried to destroy the Thousand Sons was because they were tricked by Horus before news of his heresy became wide spread. Er go, they were commanded by their Emperor to bring the Cyclops in, in route Horus suggested to Russ that he kill Magus instead, and being the guy Russ is (Drunken Raging Superstitious Viking kinda guy) decided it best to to kill Magus instead. After all, Horus was Warmaster, making him Commander of all 20 Legions in absence of the Emperor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

KageRyuuUji said:


> If you listen to the Cannon Fluff the reason they tried to destroy the Thousand Sons was because they were tricked by Horus before news of his heresy became wide spread. Er go, they were commanded by their Emperor to bring the Cyclops in, in route Horus suggested to Russ that he kill Magus instead, and being the guy Russ is (Drunken Raging Superstitious Viking kinda guy) decided it best to to kill Magus instead. After all, Horus was Warmaster, making him Commander of all 20 Legions in absence of the Emperor.


Indeed, thats what "False Gods" tells us (or its one of the first 3 HH novels, cant remember!) - However a lot more of the older fluff tells us that the Emperor was so infuriated with Magnus who had broken his oath not to practise sorcery, ordered the Wolves to fall upon Prospero. 

I will personally wait until "Prospero Burns" comes out later this year, until i make my own conclusions. It seems obvious that as a previous book in the HH series claimed Horus tricked Russ, "Prospero Burns" will also take this stance. One thing which remains 'fishy' about this is the fact that Valdor was with Russ.

Valdor as you probably know was the High Custodian of the Adeptus Custodes, the Custodes only took orders from the Emperor, no other had authority over them (not even the Warmaster) - It seems illogical that he would break a direct order from the Emperor. Hopefully "Prospero Burns" will elaborate on this. :good:


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> thousands were did not join chaos for the right reason though. They could have just become renegade and been a pissed off child roaming around. But Magnus the Red didn't; he likes "playing with fire." Not that he wasn't justified in becoming traitor. Because a lot of the legions were justified. QUOTE]
> I must defend the honour of magnus
> lets picture the situation
> he is lying over russ's knee his back broken about to be killed
> ...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Theres no doubt that i think the emperor was neglegent with his acts, and i do sympathise towards them during the heresy.
I don't know about the cliche fluff about the emperor returning and stuff. GW has basically changed a lot of stuff in different directions.
They even made one of GWs favorite chapters look like garbage in the sense that since that a book completly open the idea of the dark angels looking like a rogue chapter and pretty much traitor during the horus heresy. So who knows what else is up.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

i'm reckoning that if they do bring back the emporer it will be in an expansion to the game, kinda like apocalypse only to the power of 100 (slight exageration) with the emporer leading the imperium into the warp to fight chaos on its own ground.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> the emporer leading the imperium into the warp to fight chaos on its own ground.


How could the Emperor lead the Imperium into the warp? Its a parallel universe, not the neighbouring star system :victory:


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

havent you heard of the eye of terror:victory:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> havent you heard of the eye of terror:victory:


The Eye of Terror isn't the warp 

Its a warp overlap. A place where the warp and material realm intermingle and are combined.

The Chaos Gods do not reside within the Eye of Terror, they reside within the Warp.

:victory:


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

If the Eye of Terror overlaps the warp that means it provides an access route. With the Emperor resurrected I'm pretty sure he could find some way to exploit that overlap.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> If the Eye of Terror overlaps the warp that means it provides an access route. With the Emperor resurrected I'm pretty sure he could find some way to exploit that overlap.


Just maybe the Emperor could. But leading any army into the Eye is to damn it to insanity. 

"...Half real and Half part of the warp, In this environment both daemons and mortals can survive..." (from the Eldar codex)

Daemons can survive without relying on daemonic incursions within the Eye, and likewise Mortals who cannot exist within the Warp (apart from their souls having an insignificantly small presence) can exist within the Eye. Daemons within the eye are also Much more powerful than they are in the material realm, but not as much so as in the warp, even if the majority of the army didn't descend into insanity they would be slaughtered by the limitless daemons of much greater power. It is literally a safe haven for the Chaos forces, the best the Imperium can do is to try and contain Chaos within it.

The Natural laws of Physics do not exist, fully sane mortals cannot comprehend such things. 

The Eye i guess could be used as a gateway to the warp, but mortals cannot enter the warp. (Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers are able to send their souls from their bodies and explore the warp, but only 'gifted' individuals can do this; sorcerers for example. The Emperor is/was probably capable of it) However an army as such cannot be led into the warp! - the Warp Gods dominate the warp anyway, and cannot be destroyed by conventional means.

"While one mortal lies, While envy and ambition survive, Tzeentch will work his magic as the puppet master of the Universe." From Chaos Daemons codex.

The only way to destroy the Chaos Gods is to destroy ALL Sentient life.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

I was merely talking about the Emperor exploiting the overlap. I should've been more specific. Whole armies of mortals would be torn to shreds in seconds.

EDIT: Besides if the Emperor can reincarnate (which, as a follower of chaos, I doubt) I'll bet hes powerful enough to in some way or another, enter the warp.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> I was merely talking about the Emperor exploiting the overlap. I should've been more specific. Whole armies of mortals would be torn to shreds in seconds.
> 
> EDIT: Besides if the Emperor can reincarnate (which, as a follower of chaos, I doubt) I'll bet hes powerful enough to in some way or another, enter the warp.


Aye IF(!) he is able to come back, no doubt he could enter the warp. If Dark Apostles and Sorcerers can do it, he can 

He would'nt have a physical body though, nothing does in the warp. Best not think about such things, the warp is incomprehensable to us, best us leave it that way. For its a certain headache if you start thinking down those lines! :good:


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Posibly the emp's awsomeness could calm the warp localy and allow for the mortals to beat the shite out of the surviving traitor marines and then run like hell when the daemons start coming back? It wouldnt be victory exactly, but it would be a step in the right direction.


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

sanguinius killed by horus, horus killed by emperor, emperor fatally wounded, dorn comes to the rescue


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