# Is Drazhar Arhra?



## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

OK it may be redundant but is Drazhar the lost phoenix lord Arhra? It's just that he has the exact profile of a phoenix lord and basically has aspect: Inubi without the courtesy of being called it, what do you think?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

It`s strongly hinted at but I don`t think it`s been explicitly stated.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

it has never been confirmed, but its a rumor and speculation in the lore that he might be even. As such, he might very well be.

to add, the book DOES confirm that, at the very least, Arhra is the dark father and creator of the incubi


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The fallen Phownix that burns with the dark fire of Chaos? 

My assumption is yes, but it is an assumption. There is all of two pieces of fluff that involve Ahra directly, and both are pretty vague.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I think of Drazhar as the Stig of the Dark Eldar "Some say hes Arhra the father of the scorpions, all we know... HES DRAZHAR!"


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

It, probably, isn't the actual Arhra who fought against Karandras, however. We know that a Phoenix Lord isn't just an up-powered Eldar born into superpowers but, rather, an Eldar who has donned the armour of the Phoenix Lord and given a physical avatar for the armour's gestalt personality that dwells in the Spirit Stones set-in to the physical armour.
This might mean that Arhra 'died' and his suit of Phoenix armour had been lying somewhere remote and only recently found. It might be that the armour _hasn't_ been lost, but that the wearer(s) was/were off doing other things that they felt needed doing since the Fall and Founding of the Incubi. Then again, it might be the _real_ Arhra who has survived since before the Fall and who is acting to his own plans. I love 40K!

GFP


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Then again, it might be the _real_ Arhra who has survived since before the Fall and who is acting to his own plans. I love 40K!
> 
> GFP


Well thats the only possiblity as his suit doesnt have any spirit stones and thus cannot trap the souls of its previous hosts.

Either that or hes not Arhra.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Well thats the only possiblity as his suit doesnt have any spirit stones and thus cannot trap the souls of its previous hosts.
> 
> Either that or hes not Arhra.


Phoenix Lord reincarnations don`t work that way. The body in the suit is less corporeal than normal. In _Path of the Warrior..._



The main protagonist becomes an exarch of the striking scorpions. Near the end of the book, he fights alongside Karandras, Phoenix Lord of his aspect. Karandras is killed, his armour is breached and there is no flesh to speak of within. When the protagonis approaches, he needs not don the armour, he merely becomes the life force that animates the Phoenix Lord. 

Korlandril is erased, his soul essentially sacrificed to give life back to Karandras.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Well they do say Drazhar's suit only contains bone dust.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Phoenix Lord reincarnations don`t work that way. The body in the suit is less corporeal than normal. In _Path of the Warrior..._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


3rd Edition codex eldar:

_Their armour is animated by the spirits of exarches who have been absorbed into the conciousness of the phoenix lords._

Without spirit stones the amour cannot hold those life forces - thats pretty much standard for all eldar technology (take spirit out of craftworld into spirit stone, place into wraithlord etc).

While everything you say above is utterly correct (as bleedin scary as that is from an eldar perspective!) the suit still needs spirit stones in order to hold the spirits of those other eldar - which is shown very nicely by the huge number of spirit stones on a phoenix lord - Drazar has none, thus must be the first occupant of the suit.

I suppose its arguable either way - but thats how I see it.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don`t see where it says anywhere that a Phoenix Lord needs spirit stones to absorb new souls.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I don`t see where it says anywhere that a Phoenix Lord needs spirit stones to absorb new souls.


It doesnt.

Like a lot of things in the 40K fluff it doesnt say things that are stated elsewhere.


4th edition eldar codex:



> If an eldars spirit is not captured in a waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish deths of the warp.


 
therefore if the suit doesnt have way/spirtstones then it cannot capture and eldar soul.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

In that case, can Arhra truly be called a Phoenix Lord? Certainly, like the non-fallen PLs, he is the originator of an Aspect. It is also not outside the realms of possibility that he is still going strong 10k+ years later. But if he is killed and he has no Spirit Stones, can he resurrect, especially if he dies alone?
I'd always considered the point of a PL to be contained in the name; like a Phoenix they can rise from the ashes of death to fight again, stronger and more capable as more Eldar minds are added to their gestalt whole. But if can't resurrect this way, cannot have more minds added to his own with each resurrection, then can he really take the title of Phoenix Lord?
I'm not trying to say he isn't a doubl-hard bastard who could slice-and-dice his way through most anything, and I'm probably, in fact I am, arguing semantics. By his nature he is fundamentally different to the other PLs; he is Aspect Father, but I don't think he can be called Phoenix.

GFP
NB: please note that I'm not arguing about how good or cool he is, just about how different his nature is.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

He burns with the dark fires of Chaos. 

Who says he needs spirit stones to resurrect? He is known as the Fallen Phoenix, beyond which we know virtually nothing apart from that he _might_ be Drazhar.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

ok some people are missing certain points upon the eldar.

their spirit stones, are designed to keep their souls from falling to shewhothirsts, correct?

DE do not use spirit stones, but they have other means in order to combat the pull of shewhothirsts, like, say, killing countless people?

As far as I know, Arhra is the progenitor of the incubi, Arhra went to the path of the dark eldar rather then the craftworld eldar at the time of the fall. correct me if im wrong there.

but assuming the above statements are all true. Arhra would more then likely use pain and torture, as most DE would, in order to get around the fact he does not supposidly have a spirit stone.

NOW: Where does it say Drazhar does not have any spirit stones? the incubi use corrupted spirit stones as weapons, and have them hanging from their armors.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> but assuming the above statements are all true. Arhra would more then likely use pain and torture, as most DE would, in order to get around the fact he does not supposidly have a spirit stone.


I dont know enough about dark eldar to answer this with a statement - so I will answer it with a question - does the Dark eldar way of 'surviving' allow them to live 10,000 years or 'regenerate' in the way a phoenix lord does. If it does, then my point is wrong, if it doesnt - then he must be the original.


> NOW: Where does it say Drazhar does not have any spirit stones? the incubi use corrupted spirit stones as weapons, and have them hanging from their armors.


I own the model - it doesnt have any.

It was annoying as I was trying to covert him into a striking scorpion exarch and I had to model my own.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yeah the old model does not have any, nor did the old incubi though. they have, improved the lore abit on incubi. I think they are doing a new drazhar model at some point.

as for your 'question' Maidel, Dark eldar do live for 10,000 years, vect was a slave in M31 vowing to rule commorragh.

its now m41 and hes still going strong.

and the haemonculi ancients are probably eldars from before the fall who joined the dark eldar rather then their CE or Exodite cousins. And the haemonculi have regenerated a dark eldar from a small fragment purely using pain. I am not sure if its identical to how pheonix lords regenerate, but, the DE very much do have ways of regenerating through pain.

If you want to get technical, if the DE were not the most evil race in 40k, killing eachother, or denying regeneration from not having the 'currency' to afford it, they could easily out populate 2 or more of any of the other races in the universe (and i do mean pick 2 races and put them together)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> yeah the old model does not have any, nor did the old incubi though. they have, improved the lore abit on incubi. I think they are doing a new drazhar model at some point.


The old model was great, but a bit 'static' - head straight forwards, no lateral movement - he looks a bit like a dancer. I would love to see a new model with some dynamism to it.

Looks like I need to read that dark eldar codex... where the **** did I put it - its probably in the loft torturing the other codeci. :grin:




> as for your 'question' Maidel, Dark eldar do live for 10,000 years, vect was a slave in M31 vowing to rule commorragh.
> 
> its now m41 and hes still going strong.


Follow up question (I feel dirty asking questions in fluff forum - its normally where I answer them!) - does time travel normally for them there? Or is it like warp space where 10K years is more like 100 years?




> and the haemonculi ancients are probably eldars from before the fall who joined the dark eldar rather then their CE or Exodite cousins. And the haemonculi have regenerated a dark eldar from a small fragment purely using pain. I am not sure if its identical to how pheonix lords regenerate, but, the DE very much do have ways of regenerating through pain.


In which case - it looks like he is the original and hes kept himself alive in this way, rather than using the eldar method. :so_happy:


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

time in the webway flows at a 1:1 ratio to real space.

and if its the original is undetermined too, since Drazhar was not heard of from anywhere until he came to challenge the heirarch of the incubi order.

he could use the spiritstone form of ressurection too, as i mentioned earlier of the stones being used by incubi and corrupted.

but another thought: if he was not actively trying to show off being Arhra, but Drazhar, then would he not find ways to hide the spirit stone?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> time in the webway flows at a 1:1 ratio to real space.


Well that puts Vect along side Bjorn as the oldest characters in 40K then. Hes way older in real terms than any of the chaos space marines...



> and if its the original is undetermined too, since Drazhar was not heard of from anywhere until he came to challenge the heirarch of the incubi order.
> 
> he could use the spiritstone form of ressurection too, as i mentioned earlier of the stones being used by incubi and corrupted.


So basically he could have 'died' quite a few times before leaving the craftworlds and comming to the Dark eldar. And how he 'survived' since then is open to debate as well.




> but another thought: if he was not actively trying to show off being Arhra, but Drazhar, then would he not find ways to hide the spirit stone?


Well that leads me to a separate line of reasoning - could a craftworld eldar become a dark eldar simply by living with them (Assuming he lived 5 seconds!) and just adopting their ways - or are they in some very important way different to dark eldar now?

Because if they are utterly different now, then Ahra would need to keep and hide his spirit stone - but if the way of living as a dark eldar is 'adoptable' then it would simply be easier for him to live that way.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

well in the lore, Drazhar kills the leader of the incubi, but seems to not care about being in any sort of leadership position. Arhra would be welcome in the dark eldar ranks, being that hes the Dark father of the incubi, so if drazhar is Arhra, he has a reason for not revealing his true self.

as for the living as a dark eldar being adoptable, thats... tricky, as it brings to the question: do all Eldar have the ability to live off of pure emotion, or is that something the dark eldar have because of their unique circumstances during the fall? if the latter, why do their children also have said ability?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> well in the lore, Drazhar kills the leader of the incubi, but seems to not care about being in any sort of leadership position. Arhra would be welcome in the dark eldar ranks, being that hes the Dark father of the incubi, so if drazhar is Arhra, he has a reason for not revealing his true self.


Sorry - you lost me here - Im wondering if there is a 'not' missing.

If arhra would be welcome among them why does he have a reason for not revealing his true self?

:scratchhead: 


> as for the living as a dark eldar being adoptable, thats... tricky, as it brings to the question: do all Eldar have the ability to live off of pure emotion, or is that something the dark eldar have because of their unique circumstances during the fall? if the latter, why do their children also have said ability?


Well - that is interresting - if their children have developed the ability as well one would assume that ALL eldar have that ability, just that they dont want to use it because it pushes them closer to slaanesh than they would like to be?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

ok i will point form that first sentence for you.

- Drazhar kills the heirarch (the effective leader of the incubi) in a duel
- Drazhar does NOT take the heirarch position, or a klavix position, he does not seem to want to have any leadership responsibilities
- Arhra would be welcomed into the... society... of the dark eldar, but being the dark father of the Incubi, would be Revered and looked to for leadership, see the point above.
- Drazhar, if he is Arhra must have a reason OTHER then being rejected by the dark eldar, as why he does not openly state he is Arhra. 

I am also under the speculation that all eldar have the ability to feed off of pure emotion, but the CE cut off their emotions and use spirit stones in order to preserve themselves, thinking their ways during the time of their empire, was wrong. where as the Dark Eldar took a different turn and kept to the old ways.

Though it could be that the genetic make up of the dark eldar was akin to evolution, and thats why the children have the ability the dark eldar seem to have gained post fall.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> ok i will point form that first sentence for you.
> 
> - Drazhar kills the heirarch (the effective leader of the incubi) in a duel
> - Drazhar does NOT take the heirarch position, or a klavix position, he does not seem to want to have any leadership responsibilities
> ...


Gotta.

Basically - kill the leader and the job is yours, but he didnt want it.

Mission for this evening - read the codex. :biggrin:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Presumably any eldar can turn to almost any path at any point. The eldar codex states that some who follow the path of the Outcast eventually find their way to Commoragh. 

_Path of the Warrior_ tells us that...



Dark Eldar can adopt a craftworld life. One of the secondary characters is a striking scorpion alongside Korlandril. Throughout the book he does not speak. Later it is revealed that before joining the striking scorpions he trod the path of the Icubus. This seems like solid enough evidence that a DE is capable of redeeming themselves and becoming "good" so to speak.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Presumably any eldar can turn to almost any path at any point. The eldar codex states that some who follow the path of the Outcast eventually find their way to Commoragh.
> 
> _Path of the Warrior_ tells us that...
> 
> ...


That is fuking insightful and as a Eldar fan I likey.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Also, Drazhar's armor is described as ancient and unique. It is quite possible that it may, in fact, contain spirit stones. Other Phoenix Lord armor also seems to be fairly low in spirit stones, most of which are seen on their weapons. We do know that every Incubus has a broken spirit stone which is fashioned into a Tormentor, it is fairly possible that some of Drazhar's uniqueness could be from utilizing intact Stones.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> - Drazhar does NOT take the heirarch position, or a klavix position, he does not seem to want to have any leadership responsibilities


And yet he is an HQ choice :dunno:


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Klaivex said:


> And yet he is an HQ choice :dunno:


Just because he wont take the helm and lead a battle doesnt stop others from following him.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

My own opinions are as follows:

I believe that Arhra is Drazhar simply because I think that there is too many similarities that cannot be ignored. I also think that he hides his stones underneath his armour or something.

As to whether CE can become DE the simple answer is yes. There are constant reminders for the Eldar Corsairs that might fall from grace and eventually join the DE because they cannot excersize their wunderlust.


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