# How much frontage is too much?



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

So I remember once being advised by a redshirt that a good size for a unit in terms of width was 7... since you know your opponent's unit will be at least 5 models wide and when centered properly, all 7 will be able to hit.

Makes sense, but that can be a pretty costly unit when you're going for ranks, not to mention the massive movement cost for wheeling a unit that wide.

What say you?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Generally, it depends on how killy your unit is, and what it can expect to be facing. For example, Black-Guard are universally considered to be pretty killy in CC, and a frontage that envelops the enemy's frontage. 7 is usually ideal for this, but a frontage of 12 against a horde can also be attractive. 

However, spearmen are weak, not likely to kill much, and pretty easy to kill back. You want to minimize the amount of casualties while maintaining the max ranks for steadfast. The minimum for this is 5, and you'll use them at 5.

Does that answer your question?


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

With the inclusion of horde units in 8th edition, there is a push to field a 10 wide horde unit. I do not like this idea myself. I prefer a unit that is 7 or 8 wide at most. I play Lizardmen primarily and I can fit 3 Kroxigors in the second rank behind 8 skinks. I have tried running a 10 wide unit of 30 and did not like it. It was too hard to move that unit and they never had frontage on another unit that size. It makes more since to keep it at 7 or so (to me). The unit remains stubborn anyway (due to outnumbering your opponent). Another note is that you can always reform the line to increase or decrease your frontage. If you win combat resolution, it is a free reform and if you lose, you must make a Ld check at your modified Ld from the combat resolution.


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## CoNnZ (Mar 28, 2009)

Totally dependant on what the units job is within your army. Also on how big the unit is. Large units can afford the wide front and still get high rank bonus. Other units that are more costly however should probably be only 5 wide to get as many ranks as possible


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

20mm = 8 wide = 160mm
25mm = 6 wide = 150mm.

Standard for my CC units. Ranged units are pretty much 5x2 always.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can change your columns and ranks as you see fit on the spot though it will cost you one movement phase usually (though if its dead important its not a problem, right?). Especially in this edition. Those 2x5 Knights can be pretty scary when they hit your 10 wide Clanrats with their FULL numbers. And don't forget the yummy pie-plates that any army can throw around with a bit of effort, with magic being the easiest and most obvious means of getting some.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, it looks like this ones left up to me.

Until she she says, "ouch."

But in all actuality, just ignore this post!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Units of 7 does leave you vulnerable to hordes, clanrat horde with spears at least 9 per rank attacking you, assuming 1 has no contact, means thats at least 36 attacks, not a nice place to be, and thats one of the most basic unit possible.

Always think how much the unit costs and what you'll gain from a wider frontage. Also consider the base size, orcs are worse than clanrats as a horde as less orcs fight simply as their bigger. 

Units with high save are better as narrow formations whereas things like swordmasters are best used to chop 'em up

As a rule of thumb my HEs often are in units of 18 6X3 other than spearmen and archers, Skaven are hordes as they are so cheap, WoCs 18 6X3, undead 25, 5X5, Orcs 25, 5X5. You can always reform to get the advantage before a combat, and rememer to always take a musican.

BTW how is 10 knights that scary for a horde of clanrats? obvious good knights are a bit of a threat but regular knights eg empire or KotR die, as they can't possibly kill enough to destroy them, and the rats will be stubborn, and generally LD10 due to a grey seer or warlord, a war of attrition the knights can't win


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I was thinking of 10 MoK Chaos Knights.  Thats 60 S6 attacks every turn with a 1+ armour save, ItP and I5. Oh and Fear. Gotta love that.

The more I think of it the more I want an all-cav WoC army.  Of course it'll have its problems but I'm not sure if I give a fuck. I'm concocting something very nice.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Those numbers are a bit inflated, but chaos knights with MoK are amoung the most killy unit in the game, potentially the most killy, but thats still about 500pts on a unit choping up a unit of about 300 .Against MoK Knights all units other than possibly swordmasters and white lions or charging Dragon Princes are pretty screwed. But the rats would still likley hold due to high LD and stubborn

The main problem with an all cavalry WoC army is that you need to spend 25% on marauder horsemen, who simply are not that good as a main unit


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Barnster said:


> Those numbers are a bit inflated, but chaos knights with MoK are amoung the most killy unit in the game, potentially the most killy, but thats still about 500pts on a unit choping up a unit of about 300 .Against MoK Knights all units other than possibly swordmasters and white lions or charging Dragon Princes are pretty screwed. But the rats would still likley hold due to high LD and stubborn.


Yeah, sorry, I forgot that in WHFB you don't get +1A if you charge, just +1 combat res. Which sucks balls. 



Barnster said:


> The main problem with an all cavalry WoC army is that you need to spend 25% on marauder horsemen, who simply are not that good as a main unit


Yup, I built a list with them and while its sweet on paper (13 MoK Horsemen with Flails charging you with a 5 man MoK Knight unit can be very scary, if you look at the math; and in 1500 pts I had two of each, plus two sorcerers on discs) they can be blown away by a dedicated gunline, which happens to be the majority of the lists the average player fights against. So yeah, no all-chaos-cav for me.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't understand how you got 60 S6 attacks from A(2+1)*Number of Models.

Even with the +1 for Charging, you'd get 40 S5 (Lances are expensive wastes when S4(5) basic, so never bother) an 10 S4 Attacks.


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