# Attack on Terra, the second wave **AOD SPOILERS**



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I have always been of the opinion that the Emperor has had a plan from the start and everything that has happened, he not only forsaw it... but he orchestrated it as well. There are many reasons I feel that way, but one of those reasons is how the final battle with Horus went down.

The Emperor knew that he had 3 loyal legions coming to relieve terra, why would he go up to fight Horus? He could have just waited it out and the tide of battle would have gone in his favor and the whole 40k universe would not exist and it would just be "The Great Crusade 2.0". Horus knew that these legions were coming as well, which is the only reason he consented to lowering his shields and letting the Emperor aboard the Vengeful Spirit.

In "Age of Darkness" Guiliman says "we will be viewed as traitors" in the first story, and in the last story the lion makes it sound as if he thinks Guiliman does want the Emperor's throne.

Here is my theory. The Emperor did not know what Guiliman's intentions were when he was on his way to Terra. He could fight for the Emperor, he could side with Horus, or he could have gotten into a 3 way fight and fought for himself. That is why the Emperor went up to fight Horus, he couldn't take the chance that Guiliman would betray him.

My theory is further backed up in "Angels of Darkness" when the traitor said Johnson took so long to get to Terra because he wanted to "see who won.

And as far as who ascended to the throne after the Emperor was entombed, if you had to pick someone it would have to be Guiliman. He comes across more like a manager rather than an Emperor, but if anyone were in charge I think most everyone would agree it was him. His strategic talents aside, he also had the largest Legion and it was not hurt nearly as bad as the others. So he could take over by force if nec.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> I have always been of the opinion that the Emperor has had a plan from the start and everything that has happened, he not only forsaw it... but he orchestrated it as well. There are many reasons I feel that way, but one of those reasons is how the final battle with Horus went down.


That is one theory that some hold to, however the HH lore certainly seems to point in the other direction: 

The Emperor: _"But know you both that my prescience fails me and I cannot fathom how this will resolve..."_

Of course though there are ways to justify this within the confines of your theory (Eg. he was lying), but taken at face-value it seems that the lore lords have always intended to go in the opposite direction; That the Heresy was the unintended and unforseen rebellion, the tradegy that shattered the Emperor and his dreams and damned the Imperium to a slow and painful death. 



Zooey72 said:


> The Emperor knew that he had 3 loyal legions coming to relieve terra, why would he go up to fight Horus?


IIRC he didn't. Horus had blocked all communications to and from Terra and used his own psychic might to block the Emperor's. The Emperor was not aware the remaining loyalists were en route.



Zooey72 said:


> He could have just waited it out and the tide of battle would have gone in his favor and the whole 40k universe would not exist and it would just be "The Great Crusade 2.0".


That is of course assuming that the tide would have certainly turned against Horus:

_"...These three Legions together would at best delay his [Horus'] victory..._"

I obviously realise it states _"at best"_, but an automatic victory for the loyalists would not have been certain. 



Zooey72 said:


> Horus knew that these legions were coming as well, which is the only reason he consented to lowering his shields and letting the Emperor aboard the Vengeful Spirit.


Seemingly not knowing reinforcements were en route, and even if he was aware; knowing that victory was not certain - The Emperor boarded the _Vengeful Spirit_ in an attempt to kill Horus, knowing that his death would essentially defeat the rebellion.

EDIT: All quotes are from the _Collected Visions_.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Key here is discrepancies

I owned the original "slaves to darkness" and "lost and the Damned" and they stated the Emperor did know that the other 3 legions were coming. Also, in the HH board game the end story also backs up that the Emp. had knowledge.

I have not had a chance to read the "Visions of Heresy", but apparently it goes with the Emperor being ignorant of the 'loyalist' coming to terra. In the end they will need to go one route or the other, but unless they come up with a good explanation (like it was part of the Emperor's plan to get entombed on the Golden Throne). I am not buying the idea that the 3 legions coming would not have turned the tide. The Ultramarines were the largest legion and largely intact, their presence alone would have finished Horus.

And if you are going to go with the "could only have delayed" Horus's victory, than why should Horus lower the shields? Other than being driven insane by Chaos it is a stupid move if he had it locked up anyway. Horus, even being corrupted by Chaos did not make stupid tactical moves.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Key here is discrepancies
> 
> I owned the original "slaves to darkness" and "lost and the Damned" and they stated the Emperor did know that the other 3 legions were coming. Also, in the HH board game the end story also backs up that the Emp. had knowledge.
> 
> I have not had a chance to read the "Visions of Heresy", but apparently it goes with the Emperor being ignorant of the 'loyalist' coming to terra. In the end they will need to go one route or the other, but unless they come up with a good explanation (like it was part of the Emperor's plan to get entombed on the Golden Throne).


I would stake my money on them following the path set out by the _Collected Visions_. It has already proved to be the blueprint for the Heresy series and was written by Alan Merrett himself. Plus I feel that many people would not like the idea of the series following the idea that the Emperor either knew of or planned the whole thing, it cheapens the whole event in my mind.



Zooey72 said:


> I am not buying the idea that the 3 legions coming would not have turned the tide. The Ultramarines were the largest legion and largely intact, their presence alone would have finished Horus.


They most likely would have done, but it is still not fully certain (hence why I stressed _"at best"_).



Zooey72 said:


> And if you are going to go with the "could only have delayed" Horus's victory, than why should Horus lower the shields? Other than being driven insane by Chaos it is a stupid move if he had it locked up anyway. Horus, even being corrupted by Chaos did not make stupid tactical moves.


Probably because he didn't want to take the risk. _"At best"_ the loyal reinforcements would have delayed his victory, but "at worst" they would have denied him it altogether. Horus with _"the power of a god"_ was confident in his ability to kill the Emperor, and must have felt it was less of a risk to personally confront his father than to allow the loyalist Legions to arrive before any form of final confrontation had occured.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

ok, when you quoted "at best" I thought you meant the best that the 3 Legions could do was delay Horus's victory. As in it was inevitable that Horus would win. 

I don't think it would cheapen the books any more than the void dragon story does on mars. He planned that for 30,000 years. It is hard for me to believe that a being that plans that far in the future and has the power to drive out all 4 chaos gods from Horus could not have seen the things coming that came.

What I think is less believable is that he would think he could tell Magnus "don't practice sorcery" and Magnus would comply. Magnus had been using sorcery since coneception. Or that Lorgar would not respond the way he did. Or even the small stuff like telling the custodes they had to stay with the word bearers for 50 years, and they stayed with them 47 before I5.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I actually feel that The Emperor having planned the whole thing can only strengthen the story. It weakens the story in my mind for the Emperor to be so capable but unable to see what is going on with his own sons; especially with Lorgar.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

When I first read your post I was thinking something similar to Child. From the perspective of a fan of the Horus Heresy background, this idea would be... _interesting_. From the perspective of a consumer, who pays money for Horus Heresy novels, I'd feel cheated. Partly because my previous knowledge of the Horus Heresy has been shitted on; partly because such a lengthy series with multiple characters, themes and tradgedies has been given such a... _cheap _explanation.

If Morgoth had the attitude of, 'Sure, I'll let the Elves destroy me, because I know my lieutenant Sauron will fuck-shit-up centuries later.' It wouldn't make for good fantasy.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

The problem I have with that idea is that the 40k setting (and by extension, its past) is a horrible, dark, depressing setting. It cheapens the setting for me if the Emperor is a great guy who just trusts people to do the right thing. For me, the setting would live up to how dark and terrible everything is only if the Emperor arranged for all of this to happen. I want everyone in the setting to be bad guys. I want to know the secret that the 'Really Good Guys' were betrayed by the 'Bad Guys' and 'Good Guys' both. To know that both sides sold humanity down the river and it was just a battle to see which sale won out in the end.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

space cowboy said:


> The problem I have with that idea is that the 40k setting (and by extension, its past) is a horrible, dark, depressing setting. It cheapens the setting for me if the Emperor is a great guy who just trusts people to do the right thing. For me, the setting would live up to how dark and terrible everything is only if the Emperor arranged for all of this to happen. I want everyone in the setting to be bad guys. I want to know the secret that the 'Really Good Guys' were betrayed by the 'Bad Guys' and 'Good Guys' both. To know that both sides sold humanity down the river and it was just a battle to see which sale won out in the end.


That's a good argument. I admit, I haven't thought of it that way. If... hints, were given, subtly, and this idea was proposed well, I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, I still believe something like the Emperor orchestrating the Horus Heresy - no matter how well executed the idea is by the Black Library team, it would be too dramatic a shift. In other words, it would be too risky for a company that, essentially, aims to make a proffit.

Not only that, but I feel this theory gives the Emperor... too much power. It makes him far more omnipotent and omniscient that we've been told thus far. Unfortunately, I'm not a God, so I can't relate to this God-like being. Not relating to important, crucial characters, turns me away...


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

There are ways to have it all be a plan of the Emperor's w/o it being "cheap". BTW, another inconsistancy in the books is tha Lorgar with the help of the Chaos Gods saw the future with his "father in a golden throne screaming into eternity forever". The Emperor is more powerful than the chaos gods (he defeated all 4 at once with Horus), how could he not see it?

That aside, I don't think the Emperor is human. I think he chose or created humanity as a tool. Maybe even "created in his own image" which would be an irony. IMO, he is at least as old as the Chaos gods, and he may have been one of them at one point. A Malal type of god who hated his brothers. If he were to be cast out and 'steal' power when he was banished to real space it would explain a lot. In real space he is more powerful than the 4. In the warp he is not. His 'imperial truth' was an attack on the warp to continue his goal of destroying the other 4. With this all being an elaborate set up of his, his entombment would cause him to grow in power in the warp from all the worship he has recieved in 10,000 years. When he is reborn in the warp it would be to continue his war against Chaos, now more powerful than ever.

That is my own personal theory on the Emperor, like it or hate it I don't think it is cheap. It makes the Emperor "good" in the sense that he wants tod estroy Chaos, but ultimately he is just another chaos god.

In the original warhammer fantasy they said that the God's of "law" were very similiar to the gods of chaos in that you had to be pretty crazy to worship them. That is how I see the Emperor


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Zooey72 said:


> There are ways to have it all be a plan of the Emperor's w/o it being "cheap". BTW, another inconsistancy in the books is tha Lorgar with the help of the Chaos Gods saw the future with his "father in a golden throne screaming into eternity forever". The Emperor is more powerful than the chaos gods (he defeated all 4 at once with Horus), how could he not see it?


What? :shok:

Either you've taken metaphor for fact, or you don't understand the 'nature' of the Chaos Gods. The Ruinous Powers have very little power on mortals in real-space, on a galactic-scale. The Warp is their domain. This is exactly why they work through networks of cults, pawns and champions amongst a variety of races (See: _Hammer of Daemons_). It is like the Alpha Legion, but on a magnitude mortal minds simply cannot comprehend. 

The Emperor didn't defeat the Chaos Gods. If he did, there wouldn't be a Horus Heresy. The fall of the Eldar Gods shows how 'Gods' can be slain, though Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and the like are probably just conjugations of vast quantities of emotional backlash. 

I believe there's something in _False Gods_ (repeated from a different perspective in _The First Heretic _IIRC) which mentions how the Emperor borrowed power from the Chaos Gods to create the his Primarch sons but didn't keep his end of the bargain. To me...

... and this is merely an interpretation (and good novels are drowned in interpretations) the Emperor used the Warp to create his sons. The Warp, being the stuff of Chaos would, in a way, make the Primarchs infused with Chaos. Making them 'Children of Chaos' in an incredibly loose way. Like Farseers, Warlocks, Psykers and Librarians, but on a far grander (and usually sub-conscious) level. I cannot see the Emperor somehow communicating with the Chaos Gods and bargaining with them. It seems like people are taking certain passages too literally (whoops, I've heard that one before, Christianity)

However, even if I am wrong. Even if the Emperor did bargain with, and 'defeat' Chaos. How was Horus involved?


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Right Zooey and Space Cowboy so the Emperor's plan is this. I'll totally destroy my empire, betray all my sons causing some to die, kill my favourite son, leave some of the rest to damnation and the remainder to despair. Doom the ENTIRE human race to 10000 years of fighting and suffering before their total extinction. And the crème da la crème of the master plan is to be crippled and wasted to rot to death slowly over ten thousand years. 

A lot of people hate this idea and rightly so. It is in my opinion dreadful. I don't think that is the tact they will take and I hope to hell its not as it would finish the setting for me completely. 

Zooey you even totally contradict yourself in your original post 

_I have always been of the opinion that the Emperor has had a plan from the start and everything that has happened, he not only forsaw it... but he orchestrated it as well.
_
_Here is my theory. The Emperor did not know what Guiliman's intentions were when he was on his way to Terra.
_

Eh!! I thought you said he planed it all, forsaw it all and orchestrated it all. What apart from the battle of Terra???????

This has also be brought up before and ADB also does not like this 'theory'. Which I think is good because he writes the history!

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=771366#post771366


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## GregorEisenhorn (May 19, 2011)

*Zooey72*, there were a couple of points you made that I wanted to pick up on. Sooner or later *CotE*'s going to whip me down for my patchy fluff knowlege here, but I'll give it a pop anyway! I'm at work without books, so please excuse the lack of sources!



> Maybe even "created in his own image" which would be an irony.


The Emperor was created when a collective of old earth shamans, who merged their power via a mass suicide to create one superpowerful being to address the threat of Chaos. This was some time several thousand years B.C.- so yes that does mean the Emperor was over 30,000 years old during the *HH*. I see it as pretty clear from the lore that he was a 'created being' himself, though it was from the sacrifice of the shamans.



> he is at least as old as the Chaos gods


As you've rightly pointed out elsewehere: the Chaos gods are beings of the Warp, whereas the Emperor is a being with corporeal form (though, granted, he is now primarily operating in the Warp). In the Warp 'time' is not a concept in the same way that it is in the material universe, so although we know that the concept of the birth of Chaos gods (notably Slaanesh) is accurate, they have also always existed in the Warp. Abstract, right? But what it means is that because we know that there was that point where the being we now know as the Emperor came into existence and because we equally know that while they were born the Chaos gods have also always existed in the Warp, they are older than the Emperor. And yet possibly younger, as Khorne was potentially born during the Age of Terra and Slaanesh we know was born at The Fall. But of course, they had been in the process of being born for millions of years. You can see this is kind of circular! Really, we don't know much! :crazy:



> he may have been one of them [_Chaos gods_] at one point


We know the Emperor's origins and we know that the ancient shamans created him via ritual suicide. Also, the idea of being a Chaos god and then changing just doesn't seem right- that's not anything from canon, really, just IMO.



> With this all being an elaborate set up of his, his entombment would cause him to grow in power in the warp from all the worship he has recieved in 10,000 years.


I think that's the Starchild Prophecy you're referring to, right? So that's the concept that by reaching a kind of 'terminal velocity' of worship then the Emperor would be born as a Warp god. I certainly wouldn't put it past him on the throne to try that! In fact, it was probably Malcador's idea! Although, interestingly, I have seen the concept that this would allow him to be the paradoxical Chaos god of Order. That's pretty cool, and would maybe kind of tie in with the thing you said about him being a Chaos god at one time, because if he is to be in the future then he would always have been. Right? My head hurts!

I agree with *space cowboy* that the idea of the Emperor having allowed the Heresy to happen ties in very well with the whole grim darkness of the far future, and it also strikes me as quite a cool idea. It kind of depends on your view of the Emperor, I guess. However, I personally think it's one of those things they shouldn't canonise one way or the other, because leaving some ambiguity about it allows for that bleak, bleak outlook we all so love. 

They have now gone down the route of 'He didn't know this would happen' ("_But know you both that my prescience fails me and I cannot fathom how this will resolve..._"), but there is always the opportunity to rebutt that if you wish, as surely even the Emperor's not above a lie or two for his own purposes.

I think another thing which often clouds our judgement is the fact that we are familiar with a M41 Emperor, who is the product of ten thousand years of Ecclesiarchy (as well as others) propoganda. The Emperor himself denied his divinity. Of course that in itself may have been a lie, or a sign of his true divinity (think Life of Brian)- it's also a topic covered at great length elsewhere. However, as canon mounts up that: a. the Emperor didn't know what would happen in regard to the attack on Terra (ie from his own lips); and b. he's not a god (now I _know_ someone's coming back on that!) and therefore not omniscient; then we have to accept that perhaps he just didn't know what would happen. But as long as there's room for it, *space cowboy* and *zooey72* can be conspiracy theorists, and that's good, because it keeps these forums going.

This has been something of a rambling post, but i hope there's something in there people can muse upon.


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## Esca (Feb 1, 2011)

Me theory is, the Emperors bacon supply had ran out and after some time he need more of the delicious meat to get his fix. So he asked Horus if he had any bacon on the Vengeful Spirit the he can come up and eat and Horus being the sneaky traitor he is saw an opportunity to attack his farther off guard as he feasted on the heavenly meat. So Horus tells his father, yes, we have plenty of bacon, enough to feed a legion, and offered his father to come up and feast on his favorite of foods.

Once there on the Vengeful Spirit, the Emperor is escorted to Horus who has set up a magnificent feast of the his fathers oh so favorite meat. As the Emperor beginnings to enjoy the savory meat, that is when Horus sees his opportunity and attacks his father who is in such delight.

We all know the rest


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

If you look up the great game you'll see that majority of the Chaos Gods attentions are put into it unless something happens that threatens them all. This would be the emergence of the Anathema or as we know him The Emperor.Also,if the Emp is a chaos god I don't think they would view him as a threat to unite against.Obviously he's seen as outside of their goals and needed to be crushed.The entire Heresy was orchestrated by conjunction by the Gods from the beginning.
I think the Architect of Fate planned Magnus and his legions downfall from the moment the Emperor made the deal with them for power. He's always thinking moves ahead so it fits.I really do believe that all the Ruinous Powers working in concert with one another would be enough to blind the Emperor to events and situations where the warp is concerned. I actually believe that they allowed the legions to move through the warp to reach Terra in an effort to force the final confrontation. If you read Legion you know the Cabal themselves thought that eventually Horus if victorious would turn on the Gods.So you know they may have anticipated it. Getting rid of Horus and the Emperor insured that the universe remained how they liked it.....in Chaos.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Ok, how did both the Magnus and Lorgar (esp. Lorgar) see the future and the Emperor did not? 

The Chaos Gods do have a large amount of power in real space. Are you trying to refer to the instability of Daemons? If they had no power in real space than they would have no influence. People aren't going to turn to chaos because 'all the cool kids are doing it', they do it for the power that it offers.

I didn't say the emperor destroyed the chaos gods, it reads that he drove them out of Horus because if they stayed they would be destroyed. Self preservation saved the ruinous powers.

The Emperor has already defeated a god in Mechanicium. That plan is 50k old and still in the process of being completed.

The argument as to "Oh ya, the emperor would do all these horrible things to what end?" Destroy his sons, 10,000 years of suffering, etc etc. Easy answer is 'why does god let bad things happen to good people'. My own theory is that he wants to defeat the other 4 chaos gods and is willing to do anything to achieve that end. Ultimately, the things you listed are a small price to pay to accomplish that - esp. to a God.

Something that backs up my theory he is/was a Chaos god, have any of you seen any power the Emperor has that does not originate from the warp? What are the Chaos gods other than power in the warp?

As far as not knowing which side Guiliman would go to. Ya, what I said contradicts my theory, I should have been more detailed. I think that is where the story is going to lead, but not what exactly happens. In the end I see a 'usual suspects' type of ending where you see how kevin spacey ran the entire thing.

Prospero Burns has a couple of things in it that do not add up. 1. As I already mentioned Magnus saw the Heresy before it happened and tried to warn the Emperor. How did Magnus see it and not the Emperor? If you notice Magnus had his huge revelation when he was in the Emperor's presence. 2. Just to show the power scale difference between Magnus and the Emperor "hey dad, I found this webway and... Oh, you already know about it and almost have built one yourself - ok". 3. When Prospero was attacked Magnus was content with letting him, his sons, and his planet be destroyed rather than fall to Chaos. They show him being tempted and him refusing. They never give any reason what changed his mind. IMO the only being in the galaxy that could have changed his mind was the Emperor. Magnus was always too smart for his own good (he figured out what the Emperor was doing on Terra even though the Emperor did not want anyone to know) and I think the Emperor had to confide in him his ultimate goal to convince Magnus to go along with it. Why would any author pass up the reasoning on what motivated a primarch to fall? It would be like them dropping Horus off in the Davin cave and cutting to the next chapter and saying "he's corrupt now". The author left it out for a reason.

Lastly I think the 10,000 shaman origin of the Emperor makes no sense what so ever. That is old fluff, and they may use an element of it if they ever do an origin of the emperor, but his power goes far beyond a few thousand psychers. IMO, that has as much validity as the 'star child' fluff that they used to push. I will say this about the 10,000 shaman theory, they do mention it in 'horus rising'. Horus has a gold ring the Emperor gave him that he said was made 1 year before the Emperor was born. In the shaman fluff they all sacraficed themselves and 1 year later the Emperor was born.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Zooey72 said:


> Ok, how did both the Magnus and Lorgar (esp. Lorgar) see the future and the Emperor did not?


They did not and they never will...

... Even the *Chaos* *God*, *Tzeentch* (Codex: Chaos Demons)

_'Tzeentch's gaze encompasses all of the past and all of the present. The future, however, is a different matter. There are infintie futures, fragmented into uncountable threads, ever changing, ever twisting. Events in the present generate a new thread, which instantly interwines with millions of others, created by the actions of creatures in all corners of the universe. Not even the Great Sorcerer [Tzeentch] can hold all of the threads in his mighty intellect. This limit has always unnerved Tzeentch...'_

... is unable to acutely read the future. It is impossible. The visions Lorgar, Magnus, Horus and maybe other fallen Primarchs witnessed, were corrupted parodies of the future, manifested by Chaos' best guesses. Used to persuade the Primarchs to their banner.

Your argument does not make sense. You read fluff, canon, whatever, and you somehow bludgeon any metaphorical or literary purposes of the text aside, and install this unrealistic realism upon these snippets of text to make them function in the grand machine which is your argument. Well it doesn't work. The nature of Chaos is uncategorisable. Ya know... hence the term 'Chaos.' (Greek semantics also supports this) and the 31'st and 41'st millennia, whether you like it or not, contains magic...

... science-destroying, common-sense-toppling, magic. And arguments like this, and especially those 'omg how did Khaine, like, totally fight Slaanesh in real space or something?' arguments are ridiculous. You're taking everything too literally.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

bobss said:


> They did not and they never will...
> 
> ... Even the *Chaos* *God*, *Tzeentch* (Codex: Chaos Demons)
> 
> ...


I guess that is where part ways as far as our opinion goes. 

The First Heretic, page 455

_"But I have seen what will be. Our father, a bloodless corpse enthroned upon gold, and screaming into the void forever" _ (Lorgar talking to Corax).

Some futures are easy for anyone to see. Drive drunk, you may die in a car crash. You smoke, cancer may be in your future. But who guesses at being "entomed on gold to scream into the void forever?" Or if it is guess as you say it is, it is a pretty good one - because Lorgar did not list any other possibilty other than that one. And if you are going to go with wishful thinking, or if you just want to demoralize you enemy or corrupt would be recruits wouldn't it be more effective to say straight out "we'll win"?

IMO, chaos lies more through 1/2 truths than it does from out right fabrications. Notice how they didn't show Lorgar the entire truth of what was going to happen, just "the chaos highlights". Like when Horus was being tempted to turn and he saw his vision of the future with the 9 loyalist primarchs but he and the other 8 were not there. Taken out of context you can see why that pissed Horus off something fierce. That is the nature of how Chaos operates IMO.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Zooey72 said:


> I guess that is where part ways as far as our opinion goes.
> 
> The First Heretic, page 455
> 
> ...


Wanted to add with the edit... so your argument actualy is "Chaos is unknowable - except by me". You just use a piece of fluff to back what you think, and than say my argument isn't sound because I do the same thing? k:


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> My own theory is that he wants to defeat the other 4 chaos gods and is willing to do anything to achieve that end.



Yes of course he wishes to defeat chaos. How on earth does planning the Heresy accomplish that? It hands ultimate victory to chaos with the damnation of the human race and the eventual death of the Emperor!

Here's my theory (I do appreciate that we all have different takes on this!)

He wanted to complete the connection to the webway so that humans could travel the galaxy without exposing themselves to the warp and the chaos within. He wanted a completely secular society that would drain the power of the chaos gods due to the lack of worship. The tragedy of the setting is that he was so close to this nirvana when it all went tits up in a very bad way. The last thing he wanted was the current situation in 40k. He's been left defeated and next to destroyed with humanity hanging on by its fingertips. 

The setting is filled with bad guys and needs a good guy. That was the emperor, everything he did was for the greater good of the human race and not for his own benefit. Part of his appeal to me is that, yes he was extremely powerful but he had his faults, human faults, he was not omnipotent and made mistakes. He was not all seeing and could not predict the future, he could plan for it but not predict it. Neither could any of his sons, they had visions of POTENTIAL futures, manipulated by the chaos powers. 

The Heresy was planned by the Chaos powers to stop him and his plans. It might not have worked had various things not gone their way, but luck was on there side, Sejanus was killed and his replacement Loken was too weak and it all went wrong from there. :wink:


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Yes of course he wishes to defeat chaos. How on earth does planning the Heresy accomplish that? It hands ultimate victory to chaos with the damnation of the human race and the eventual death of the Emperor!
> 
> Here's my theory (I do appreciate that we all have different takes on this!)
> 
> ...


My issue with looking at what we know about the Emperor and the Heresy to date is that it makes the Emperor look stupid and or irradict (if taken at face value). He either has an ego the size of the galaxy or the brain the size of a pea to think that Magnus and his legion would stop using sorcery because dad said "because I said so". Or that Lorgar would find the "imperial truth" by humiliating him and destroying his planet.

How could he defeat the Chaos Gods by letting the Heresy happen? Well, for 10,000 years he has been worshipped across the galaxy by zealouts. That power grows in the warp, and makes him that much stronger in the warp. When he is reborn it would not suprise me if something similiar to Slan. creation occured and where Terra now is there would be the center of the "Eye of the Imperium". Only in Martyrdom could he create the atmosphere that would generate the worship he has recieved.

I don't think anyone here would argue that the intense worship of the emperor by trillions of people has had something growing in the warp. The sisters of battle are proof of that. I am not real familiar with them, but isn't their living Saint kind of strike you as the Imperium's version of a Greater Daemon?

I don't think the Emperor is good. I think he is better than the alternative. It is like asking "would you rather live in a concentration camp, or during the Inquisition". The lesser of the 2 evils is clear. Things may be worse in the 40k world, but even during the great crusade all xenos had to die, and any human civilization that was not made compliant faced genocide.

These are just my ideas, and every one has their own. But where some of you think it would cheapen the story for it all to be orchestrated by the Emperor I think the story would be cheapened if the 'mistakes' he made were either unbound ego or incredible stupidity.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> My theory is further backed up in "Angels of Darkness" when the traitor said Johnson took so long to get to Terra because he wanted to "see who won.


Something that is shown to be completely false in AOD aswell.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

mal310 said:


> Sejanus was killed and his replacement Loken was too weak and it all went wrong from there. :wink:


I don't agree that Loken was too weak, Loken was utterly powerless to stop Horus fall, just as Sejanus would have been aswell.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Something that is shown to be completely false in AOD aswell.


Could you elaborate? The way the last page ended in the book it made it sound exactly that way to me.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Jonson makes his allegiance to the Emperor pefectly clear in the story and his reasons for not getting to Terra sooner are also explicitly explained by Kurze. Jonson also makes it clear that he doesn't intend to join Guilliman.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Whoa, fiirst off the Heresy happening without the Emperors knowledge doesn't make him look stupid or pea-brained at all.At the core of 40k and all this is what this is horror/military science fiction.The death of the Emperor's dream is what this is all about.If you read anything on him you would know that his goal was to have a race of science based enlightened humans who didn't depend on the warp or support it.If anything they bent it to their will. He want to develop psykers to see the Gods for what they are,senitient thoughts and desires made manifest in the warp and not beings that deserved worship.This is an archetypal story. God and Lucifer or King Arthur and Mordred.None of those fathers saw their sons fall to treachery.

I think the Emperor had the best intentions and he wanted the best for humanity.If you read Legion you know that the condition of the imperium today is exactly what the Cabal forsaw as the best thing for Chaos getting stronger.The Emperor defeating the Void Dragon (albeit the thing was like at 1 percent power) was probably not the safest move but he needed the tech the thing could produce. 

The imperium today now sees the Ruinous powers as Gods. The enlightenment the Emperor wished to give them as seeing them for what they truly are is gone.Untrained pyskers now are dangerous elements instead of beings they emperor would shape into the next phase of evolution. Technology has gone missing never to be learned and the best stuff you can get are artifacts.Besides chaos you have the tyranids,necron/c'tan,and the tau.In my opinion if they Emperor's plan was the 40k of today then yeah, he's an idiot.Do the math,eventually with all these threats unless something drastic happens humanity is going to be devoured from 2 or more sides at least. Oh and that drastic thing would be Kaldor Draigo coming back and continuing to wipe his ass with Chaos's best efforts.lol.jk.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't agree that Loken was too weak, Loken was utterly powerless to stop Horus fall, just as Sejanus would have been aswell.


Hastur was Horus's favourite and he (by all accounts) listened to him. Loken knew that Erebus was lying about the anathame but procrastinated because he didn't want to get egg on his face and did nothing but 'moan'. Had Hastur been in the same situation he would have been straight up to Horus telling him he was been played for a fool. Horus would have gone ballistic on Erebus and ultimately Lorgar and the heresy would never have happened. !!!!


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> This is an archetypal story. God and Lucifer or King Arthur and Mordred.None of those fathers saw their sons fall to treachery.


These are not good examples as in the God/Lucifer dynamic it was part of God's plan to have Lucifer rebel, for it wouldn't be possible for something to happen outside of the notice of an all-knowing, all-powerful being. Arthur didn't even raise or guide Mordred. Mordred was raised and guided to hate Arthur by his mother for his whole life. The God/Lucifer dynamic is actually an argument for why the Emperor should knowingly have planned for the betrayal of some of the primarchs and possibly the entirety of what the 40k universe has become.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I actually meant the archetype of the son betraying the father. That's the archetype.Obviously each story has it's own motivations for why and how it happened but at the core the tragedy is a son turning on his father.For that,40k is the perfect archetype. Like the story of the flood or the savior all cultures have their own version,I was just using those two stories as an example of a father betraying a son.As in Gods case it maybe wasn't the best as yes he knew it would happen but nowhere does it say that he wanted or intended Lucifer to fall.

You may see things that are fucked up with you children as they grow and you may realize that "hey my kid most likely will turn out to be an asshole." That doesn't mean you want it to happen.I think it's free will.Who knows.That's a whole other argument.I don't believe the emperor knew what was going down. Let's face it.The Emperor's dream pre-heresy is all but dead in the 41st millenium. That's why this is the nightmare universe of 40k. In truth the nightmare of the present day is the Emperor's as his hopes and dreams for mankind die as he sits immobile on a throne worshipped by the same people he wanted to uplift. 

The idea and reason this story is so engrossing and bad ass is because of the pain and anguish it embodies. You wish that some midget could drop a ring in some lava and solve all of 40k's problems. You know the truth. This is a nightmare that will end with most likely the destruction of humanity unless something drastic happens. Eventually if things stay as they are know in another 1000 or so years humanity will be devoured and it will be Chaos v.s. Kaldor Draigo as the last man standing.Maybe Hector Rex and some other badasses like Cypher,some space marines,some custodes,some assassins and inquisitors,and Gaunt and Ciaphas.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Jonson makes his allegiance to the Emperor pefectly clear in the story and his reasons for not getting to Terra sooner are also explicitly explained by Kurze. Jonson also makes it clear that he doesn't intend to join Guilliman.


I don't think it was clear that he didn't want to join Guillman. In the end he and Leman Russ end up with an ETA to Terra almost identical to that of Guilliman. It could be a coincidence, it might not be. It is hard to say what Guilliman's reasoning is right now, but I am sure it will be explained later on.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> Whoa, fiirst off the Heresy happening without the Emperors knowledge doesn't make him look stupid or pea-brained at all.At the core of 40k and all this is what this is horror/military science fiction.The death of the Emperor's dream is what this is all about.If you read anything on him you would know that his goal was to have a race of science based enlightened humans who didn't depend on the warp or support it.If anything they bent it to their will. He want to develop psykers to see the Gods for what they are,senitient thoughts and desires made manifest in the warp and not beings that deserved worship.This is an archetypal story. God and Lucifer or King Arthur and Mordred.None of those fathers saw their sons fall to treachery.
> 
> I think the Emperor had the best intentions and he wanted the best for humanity.If you read Legion you know that the condition of the imperium today is exactly what the Cabal forsaw as the best thing for Chaos getting stronger.The Emperor defeating the Void Dragon (albeit the thing was like at 1 percent power) was probably not the safest move but he needed the tech the thing could produce.
> 
> The imperium today now sees the Ruinous powers as Gods. The enlightenment the Emperor wished to give them as seeing them for what they truly are is gone.Untrained pyskers now are dangerous elements instead of beings they emperor would shape into the next phase of evolution. Technology has gone missing never to be learned and the best stuff you can get are artifacts.Besides chaos you have the tyranids,necron/c'tan,and the tau.In my opinion if they Emperor's plan was the 40k of today then yeah, he's an idiot.Do the math,eventually with all these threats unless something drastic happens humanity is going to be devoured from 2 or more sides at least. Oh and that drastic thing would be Kaldor Draigo coming back and continuing to wipe his ass with Chaos's best efforts.lol.jk.


Legion, Gah - what a horrible book.

I did read it, and the cabal was wrong. Alpharius, 1/2 wit that he is would have saved the Imperium from its fate if he hadn't turned. 2 more primarchs and an entire legion on Terra to help defend would have stopped the future that the cabal foresaw happening. So the cabal was either corrupt or wrong. Had Alpharius done what he should have - killed the cabal than warn the Emperor the 40k universe would be very different.

The whole argument for him turning was dumb "So, you xenos want me to betray the Emperor and go traitor so that I can have the human race destroyed 10,000 years before it has to be so that ultimately (and this is the big pay off) Aliens can inherit the galaxy?"

The only thing after that should have been the sound of bolters going off and the Astartes laughing at the xenos for thinking they would go along with something so insane.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Some of what you said is quite interesting. 

Especially with what was said in Angels of Darkness.

In almost every debate, the idea of the Lion being a fence sitter means he is a traitor. I don't look at it in those terms. He played it smart. Even in Age of Darkness, he played it out in his sector to save parts of the Imperium, knowing that Terra wasn't the only war to be fought. 

Likewise, if Guilliman at the time was really being looked upon as one looking to claim the golden throne for himself, wouldn't it have been wise of the Lion to actually have Guilliman lay it out against Horus before intervening? It would have been the smart thing. The guy has about the size of three legions under his belt.

So unlike all you Dark Angel fan boys, I actually think the possibility of the Lion being a fence sitter is still a good go. 

As to the rest of the thread topic, I think you definitely have something going there. Of course, I doubt most of it is true, but it truly sets the mind to ponder. Like wtf? Looking back at past threads, there have been so many questions here and there about how come the Emperor didn't see half his sons turn against him, when pretty much he was the fricken reason they turned. Something clearly weird.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So what's the alternative? You actually think with the state of things right now the Imperium is going to defeat Chaos,the traitor legions/primarchs/rengegades,the tyranids,necron/C'tan,and all of their old enemies? You obviously didn't get the implication.Like the eldar they were saying the humans were feeding chaos.It wasn't them or us.Either you go quickly in 10,000 years or you can be devoured/warped/enslaved in the dark future.The reason all of them had that reaction was that they saw the horror of what Chaos would do to humanity.You honestly think if the option was "Hey betray your father with your power mad brother so we can run things when your all dead",Alpharius wouldn't have slaughtered them all with Omegon?Chaos can't be stopped.The Emperor's plan for enlightenment was the Imperium's best option.

With his death that went away. All the bloodshed and slaughter,the betrayal and treachery,the fear of death,along with the depravation shown by the regime feeds chaos. The cabal was letting him know that unlike the eldar you won't survive.Either you can help us kill this enemy and die knowing that you destroyed it,or you let this thing get you and the universe.What do you think the gods would do if they had the unlimited access to the mortal realm? Continue the great game with the materium and the immaterium as their stage.Humans and xenos alike would become pawns just like the creatures in the warp.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> So what's the alternative? You actually think with the state of things right now the Imperium is going to defeat Chaos,the traitor legions/primarchs/rengegades,the tyranids,necron/C'tan,and all of their old enemies? You obviously didn't get the implication.Like the eldar they were saying the humans were feeding chaos.It wasn't them or us.Either you go quickly in 10,000 years or you can be devoured/warped/enslaved in the dark future.The reason all of them had that reaction was that they saw the horror of what Chaos would do to humanity.You honestly think if the option was "Hey betray your father with your power mad brother so we can run things when your all dead",Alpharius wouldn't have slaughtered them all with Omegon?Chaos can't be stopped.The Emperor's plan for enlightenment was the Imperium's best option.
> 
> With his death that went away. All the bloodshed and slaughter,the betrayal and treachery,the fear of death,along with the depravation shown by the regime feeds chaos. The cabal was letting him know that unlike the eldar you won't survive.Either you can help us kill this enemy and die knowing that you destroyed it,or you let this thing get you and the universe.What do you think the gods would do if they had the unlimited access to the mortal realm? Continue the great game with the materium and the immaterium as their stage.Humans and xenos alike would become pawns just like the creatures in the warp.


You need to put things in context. First, 10,000 years is not a short amount of time. Trillions of people got live that time and in general living is better than dying, and also better than not being born.

Second lets put this scenerio into today's prespective. If someone told me that I could either see the human race destroyed as of this minute, but in 10,000 years the deer would dominate the earth. But if I let the human race live the whole planet would no longer sustain life in 10,000 years. I go with 'A'. Call me selfish, but I am a speciesist. Humans rock!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You've completely ran the other way with it. If you read Legion you know the Cabal told Alpharius/Omegon that the 10,000 yrs the human race would live would be hell.They would be enslaved,devoured,and slowly corrupted.Kind of like what's happening now.Then in the end they would be completely devoured and take the rest of the galaxy with them. The 10,000 year time line wasn't with humans living and flourishing.You think it's cool living as a human right now in 40k? You either can choose a horrible end to xenos like the dark eldar,necron/c'tan,or tyanids.If you get lucky some crazed psyker can use you or someone on your planet as a sacrifice to birth some Chaos abomination into this universe.Even in the unlikely event you make it,if the Inquisition doesn't outright kill you,prepare to get neutered and live out the rest of your days in slave labor. 

You think because you read these space marine novels those guys always are on hand to the rescue? Read the Grey Knights stories or even the first novel. See what happened to the humans on Khorian IX before the GK made planet fall. Go to the first war for Armageddon.The humans there fought with bravery and valor to save their planet from Chaos, Reward? Being sterilized and put on a planet to live out their lives in slavery. 

I forgot where I read it but the story with the Lamenters getting handled in front of the humans as they watched their hope for salavation torn to shreds by the Tyranid horde.Unless your in the employ of the Imperium (i.e. Inquisitor,assassin,or pysker),a space marine,or a bad ass mercenary being a human in this future is living in a constant state of horror and fear. You live under a bloody regime and your life isn't worth bear shit.There's a difference between living and existing.


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