# chaos heavy support tips



## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Hey guys. Ive recently played my first game of 40k against dark angels and won! My army is basic with 20 cultists and 15 cam plus the rest of the dark vengeance set (that's including those 20 cultists) plus 2 fantasy daemon princes and a nurgle sorcerer. I want to expand into heavy support and was just wondering what people think that would compliment my death guard army. I was thinking havoks (but I don't know if you can buy them separately) obliterators look like my thing and forgefiends (but I'm not made of money). Suggestions please people. Cheers.


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## DaisyDuke (Aug 18, 2011)

Hey dude
If you want Havocs your best bet is individuals off eBay then you can get your load out how you want. And it won't cost a fortune. Obliterators are still very good with marks, but since they lost fearless I run them as individuals.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle are excellent choices, as are Havocs with Autocannons (I'm unsure if you'd Mark them - they're pretty vulnerable to small arms, so Nurgle might not be a bad idea, but part of their appeal is that they're so cheap). However, before branching into Heavy Support I would *heavily* advise at least 1 Heldrake. They are so utterly fantastic it's unreal. They're easily the superior to anything in Heavy Support, and I would say they're the greatest thing in the whole Codex, if not the game.

Midnight


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

...As we all know how much you love Helldrakes Midnight . I would definitely second this a they are incredible at clearing objectives.

If it is heavy support your have your heart set on, obliterates with a mark of nurgle can become very irritating to armies as they can absorb a lot of fire with their terminator armour and because they are a small unit of your opponent does shoot at them there are generally other units which they could do more damage to so try protect the rest of your army too! So I would recommend these, probably in squads of 1 or 2 to maximise this,

I'm not a fan of havocs and personally think obliterators are much better choice, I would just stick with heavy weapons in your troop marines as havocs die easily. 

I have never tried out forge fiends or maulerfiends but I think they look pretty good on paper. With forge fiends I reckon 2 auto cannons and the ectoplasma cannons are the best build as they can take out most light armour in one volley and have great tame to keep them safe. Maulerfiends don't seem as good because they have no range weapons but they can be quick and are probably good at fighting infantry as very few armies are going to hve the strength to dent it, but the again the hellbrute is fairly similar (though slower) and has a gun, it really depends on what you think your list needs - I would say go forge fiends of you are unsure.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Havok's die easily? I don't know about you, but my 3 havok squads have never been wiped as they are always 24" from the enemy sitting behind either 4+ cover or have a 3+ in save from a Tzeentchian/skyshield (that I lowered a bit). I mean 10 models with 3+/4-3+ seem a hell lot more resilient then low model count/low LD terminators.

Also with helldrakes and the like your heavies should be dedicated to anti-armor primarily, and oblitorators have to get suicidally close to out preform havoks in that regard.

Now you could use them for the old alpha strike, but with more units getting interceptor and the general cost of units going down this often leads to a dead pile of oblitorators that only accomplished silencing a single target. However, I personally still think oblitoartors are a great unit, but they are defiantly not as good as they used to be now that they are LD8 and have to keep switching weapons. (Not fun having 2 oblitorators break and keep running from a single lucky las cannon)


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Havok's die easily? I don't know about you, but my 3 havok squads have never been wiped as they are always 24" from the enemy sitting behind either 4+ cover or have a 3+ in save from a Tzeentchian/skyshield (that I lowered a bit). I mean 10 models with 3+/4-3+ seem a hell lot more resilient then low model count/low LD terminators.
> 
> Also with helldrakes and the like your heavies should be dedicated to anti-armor primarily, and oblitorators have to get suicidally close to out preform havoks in that regard.


When you say 10 models do you mean you take havocs in squads of 10? I mean that seems a hell of a waste given only 4 guys can have heavy weapons? I understand that it means there are more bodies between the enemy and the valuable guys but there are more efficient ways of spending points. Havocs are always ping I be resilient if you stick them on a sky shield because it gives them an invun and Los to most of the board without the need of moving and you can stay out I bolter range, but again some people don't have the points to buy a sky shield and use it effectively.

Also Helldrakes are definitely not anti armour, ok there vector strike can do something but the baleflamer is an objective clearer.

I don't understand what you mean by obliterators having to get suicidally close to be effective? They have the same weapons as havocs and they can choose each turn, granted to use the melta they need to get in close but you could sit mid field absorbing fire and firing plasma cannons or las cannons at stuff.

I'm not saying your havoc list won't work but it seems like you need to build your list around it which can be hard to do when you are just starting to expand your army.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

falcoso said:


> When you say 10 models do you mean you take havocs in squads of 10? I mean that seems a hell of a waste given only 4 guys can have heavy weapons? I understand that it means there are more bodies between the enemy and the valuable guys but there are more efficient ways of spending points. Havocs are always ping I be resilient if you stick them on a sky shield because it gives them an invun and Los to most of the board without the need of moving and you can stay out I bolter range, but again some people don't have the points to buy a sky shield and use it effectively. Well the Ideal is 7-8 realistically as most opponents won't even bother wasting their long range shots trying to kill 16-24 marines hiding behind good cover/invulnerable saves. Also with the reduced price for all the heavy weapons havoks are the only source of massed str9 shots in the army these days.
> 
> Also Helldrakes are definitely not anti armour, ok there vector strike can do something but the baleflamer is an objective clearer. I may have been unclear but the idea I was trying to present was that helldrakes and to a lesser extent burning brand biker sorc supply all the anti-infanty you need meaning your heavies should be dedicated to anti-armor.
> 
> ...


Sorry I should have taken the time to expand more on the concepts I presented (Been working two jobs lately).


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Ok yeah that makes more sense now that you have expanded it, obliterators can still sit 36" away and alternate between las cannon and plasma thought can they not? Either way you have made a good case for havocs and may have persuaded me to try them more often - just need to make more heavy weapons rather than just the basic havoc box!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah sadly the basic havok box is fairly terrible. May I suggest the Devastator box set.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Got my old brothers one that I was going to paint and sell... might not now...


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

How are havocs sold now? Do you have to buy the CSM box set and then purchase the havoc upgrade kit off the GWShop site and build them? Or buy the box of CSM and a devastator box and convert them up?


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I think it is an upgrade kit that you can get, it is probably cheaper though to convert devastators


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

What I do is get an IG heavy weapon squad, which comes with 3 autocannons and 3 lascannons, and then combine that with a CSM squad. With this, you get the added bonus of 6 kneeling cultist models, once you rustle up some bases for them. You could max out the havoc squads with an additional single HWT, which would provide another lascannon, autocannon, and 2 more cultists. Yes they require a little bit of work to fit in the hands of a CSM, but they end up working great, I find.

If you want missile launchers or something... well, those are harder.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

I second everything Luke said about Lascannon Havocs. THey only come at 10 poits more than an unit of 3 unmarked Oblits and are more reliable at popping tanks. I usually get mine behind an Aegis Defence Line, with an Icarus if I have the points.

Regarding how to build them the Devastator box is a godsend. It gives you 2 Lascannons and with some vehicle parts it's easy to transform the 2 Plasma Cannons.


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm heading to GW tomorrow with my brothers to look at some chaos models (hopefully some heavy support) for my birthday (seeing as its next week) and i'll ask the best, cheapest way to get havocs. As i look at my codex i see that I can't give them plasma cannons ... which kinda sucks. I also just got some terminators and had a few questions about them. The "combi - " guns means what exactly? I know that its a bolter + flamer/melta/plasma (even though the kit doesnt have a combi-plasma), does that mean i can fire my bolter AND melta/flamer/plasma in the same turn? Also, Terminators are equipped with "power weapons" and one of the models parts is a mutated tentacle, what kind of power weapon would a tentacle count as? Power sword, power lance or power scourge?


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Combi wepons are bolters with an attached "one-shot" weapon. Think grenade launcher on an assault rifle. You can fire the second weapon one time per game, and as you are infantry you can't fire multiple weapons, so you can't fire with the bolter on the same turn.
The tentacle part is here just for conversion purposes, You can count it as any PW really. If you play against picky opponents, there is a combi-bolter with what looks like a power blade in the box, you could always fit the two on the same model.

And to avoid confusion, a combi-bolter is just a twin-linked bolter.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

whittsy said:


> and i'll ask the best, cheapest way to get havocs.


You can just buy the box online and have it delivered to your doorstep.


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

ok, clears up the combi-weapon thing. My bro looked it up, he thinks an apendage would be a power maul, seeing as the tentacle is blunt, makes sense i guess.


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Mossy Toes said:


> What I do is get an IG heavy weapon squad, which comes with 3 autocannons and 3 lascannons, and then combine that with a CSM squad. With this, you get the added bonus of 6 kneeling cultist models, once you rustle up some bases for them. You could max out the havoc squads with an additional single HWT, which would provide another lascannon, autocannon, and 2 more cultists. Yes they require a little bit of work to fit in the hands of a CSM, but they end up working great, I find.
> 
> If you want missile launchers or something... well, those are harder.


I've been looking into your idea of converting IG heavy weapons teams and i LOVE it after seeing the models properly. I'm pretty new to the whole converting thing though, do i need GS or is liquid GS ok to use? Also, obviously i need to purchase a IG heavy weapons team (or 2), i also would need to buy a CSM box set as well to use for my havoc squad correct? Or do i use SM Devs as some of them are kneeling? If you could just post up a reply of the equipment i'll need to convert these guys up (ie, modelling tools, GS, LGS, models etc) and maybe a photo or 2 of your converting havoc squads so i have an idea, that'd be really appreciated! Cheers.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Liquid GS is just for filling in gaps and bubbles in models, so don't use that for converting. Normal GS is what you will need to convert with, however depending on how you want them to look you shouldn't need too much.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

I love havoks. I run them in every game. Kelly and Ward have this trend of making tons of anti armor abilities/wargear that destroys armor no problem. Havoks and Oblits are strong because the squad usually can't be one shot by ranged( vindicators or grey knight librarians not included ). Oblits are good but havoks are unique because of the fact you can add cannon fodder extras to squad size. Fill up the unit size to 8 put the 4 non heavy weapons in front of your squad and then pull off the wounds from them. 
Helldrakes op need nerf field them till it happens 3 is my suggested number. But 1 is more realistic. Also I'd like to give a shout out to chosen in rhinos. Don't over look them all though Kelly made them more expensive because of the mandatory captain just bump your squad to 6 and put 5 special weapons in it. Field in rhino. Repeat field in rhino. Makes me sick when people field such an elite unit on foot then say that they suck cause they die before they can act. Puke. Trash bag is all I got to say to those people.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/sautocannons3.jpg

or 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/rotorcannons.jpg

Will set you back £12 from Forgeworld, so get 5 marines off ebay, pull the bolters off, and replace with these bad boys. 4 Autocannons in a Havok squad for ~£20.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Double Post -.-


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

whittsy said:


> I've been looking into your idea of converting IG heavy weapons teams and i LOVE it after seeing the models properly. I'm pretty new to the whole converting thing though, do i need GS or is liquid GS ok to use? Also, obviously i need to purchase a IG heavy weapons team (or 2), i also would need to buy a CSM box set as well to use for my havoc squad correct? Or do i use SM Devs as some of them are kneeling? If you could just post up a reply of the equipment i'll need to convert these guys up (ie, modelling tools, GS, LGS, models etc) and maybe a photo or 2 of your converting havoc squads so i have an idea, that'd be really appreciated! Cheers.


Arg, I just put those models into a box I sent off and won't have access to for a week. I'll do my best to describe how they look for the short term, though I may return with photos later. The models actually don't need GS to convert, I've found--the pieces match well enough they just fit together, though some chopping is needed. And yes, I bought a CSM squad for it--though you only get 6 marines with weapons from the combo, so you may have to get creative to come up with full-sized squads. Or just buy a heavy weapons te when you buy the heavy weapons squad.

For the autocannons, I just shaved off the imperial symbol and the stub that would attach the gun and the tripod. Then the CSM can use bolter hands to grip the gun along te base, for the hand with the trigger, and along the barrel.

The lascannon has a similar imperial symbol/stub to remove, but it also has a hole that the ammo feed goes into to full. I just chopped a thin disc off of one of the tripods I wasn't using and glued it over the hole. Then the hands don't fit as well as the autocannons, so I bent the fingers of the non-trigger hand to be flat. So they could fit between the lascannon barrel and under-slung tube. I also had to chop off much of the hand with the trigger so that it could be glued to the lascannon side--it just looks like the hand vanishes into the gun's side, not like I've been chopping away at it. Nobody I've played against has commented on it, so I think it's a quick, easy fix.

Again, I'll try to get some photos up about a week from now.


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

So i went out and bought an IG heavy weapons team and a box of 10 CSM in order to make 2 squads of havocs of as many weapons i like. I'm thinking of having an anti-tank squad (3 las cannons and a missile launcher) and an anti-infantry squad (3 autocannons/1 heavy bolter/1 missile launcher). The conversions are going OK i guess, i'm not the greatest artist in the world but i think these guys look pretty cool. 

































That's my first 5, the champion is equipped with a raptors plasma pistol and a warptalon lightning claw. My idea behind this is if my champion is decked out to take on an enemy squad leader (mainly jump infantry sergeants etc) he can easily dispatch them with AP3 re-roll hits or a plasma shot.

The champion of my second unit goes as this 









raptors power sword and a melta gun for the same purposes as the first one except with the obvious exceptions.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

The idea is great in my book!

The only problem I see is that you use different bases (large bases with 3 models) then they have regularly. Depending on who you play with, this could be an issue and the models could be denied from play based on this. 

Beyond that, I look forward to seeing your work as it progresses!


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Yeah I have thought of the basing issue. Seeing as the people I play against are my brothers and 2 God mates, they'll get over it. If rather work hard to get some models than use finecast. I HATE finecast. ...


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Ah ok, then it sounds like you got it covered - It would just be a damn shame if you put this much work into it, only to show up and a get a big, red "DENIED" sign thrown at you :S


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## loki619 (Mar 28, 2013)

i find that for my chaos army the bets bang for buck is 3 units of havocs 2 with 4x autocannons and 1 with 4x las cannons all with the mark of nurgle long range, good save lots of shootin and do kill anything + not that expsnsive points wise


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

loki619 said:


> i find that for my chaos army the bets bang for buck is 3 units of havocs 2 with 4x autocannons and 1 with 4x las cannons all with the mark of nurgle long range, good save lots of shootin and do kill anything + not that expsnsive points wise


Idle thought: in that case wouldn't the enemy simply focus on the lascannon squad and neuter your firepower? Have you tried 2 squads with 2 of each?


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Mossy Toes said:


> Idle thought: in that case wouldn't the enemy simply focus on the lascannon squad and neuter your firepower? Have you tried 2 squads with 2 of each?


this idea is perfect! It allows you to have even fire power on each side of the board so the enemy can't adjust to your heavy weapons (ie, send tanks down your autocannon side to ruin your life) I shall be employing this in several of my games when i know flyers will not be used. As for the painting of the Havocs and such i'll post them up on my "Painting Deathguard" forum page. Pictures will be posted as i paint them... , if that makes sense...


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