# Large 5th ed rumour compilation



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Got this from the gents at Warseer:

Hi, this is a complete summary of all the rules changes I have found using the leaked PDF. All these rules are still up for change remember so come August/September they might not make it into the final edition. Please appreciate that i have not posted the exact wording of the rules in order to match the forum guidelines and Brimstone has said it is okay to post the thread in this manner

Any unresolved questions feel free to PM me

I personally love the new missions, combat resolution modifiers (my poor Tau) and the Deep Strike Mishap chart

The rules which I think are most interesting are further down the list (missions, deep strike mishap, assault combat resolution)

• Running – instead of shooting can opt to run d6” (cannot assault) (note Fleet of Foots advantage now is that you can assault)
• Cover rules (a cover save is needed when shooting into cover, for the unit being shot at when you are shooting out of more than 2” of cover, shooting through cover to enemy on the other side)
• Shooting – if you shoot through friendly units on the same level as you the enemy unit being fired at gains a 4+ cover save
• Templates – Now all templates auto hit all the models underneath e.g. a ball of flame from an explosion
• Pinning/Go To Ground – after the enemy has rolled to hit or wound you can declare your models pinned and the unit cannot do anything that turn. They will benefit from +1 to their cover save or a 6+ save if not in cover
• Pinning – If forced to pin you take a -1 modifier Ld test if below half strength
• Blast weapons – all weapons with a blast, instead of rolling to hit automatically hit the target area chosen but scatter 2D6"
• (Flame) Template weapons – you don’t need to roll to hit
• Twin-linked template weapons – re-roll to wound
• Moving through units – troops cannot move through friendly units unless there enough room for its base or hull to fit through
• Rending – cause an AP2 wound against non-vehicles and against vehicles adds D3 to the Armour Penetration
• Sniper (cant remember old rules so may not be diff) – always a 4+ to wound, pinning, rending, 2D AP against vehicles (no bonus for rending)
• Pile-In moves are now at a 6” maximum and if this means you cannot reach unit coherency you will have to use part of your next movement phase to become coherent before moving again
• Assault – can assault multiple units as long as you can maintain coherency, must declare which is the primary target and move to engage that unit first (must start assault against the unit it shot at) must attack the first unit if in its 2” assault range, if engaged with more than one enemy at the beginning of the fight you can choose where to assign the attacks
• If assaulting enemy units into/out of/through cover and you had to taking a Difficult Terrain test your Initiative is reduced to 1 (if the enemy unit were locked in combat in the last turn this does not apply)
• Consolidation moves at end of assault can only be used to enter already locked combats and not start them
• Pistols are the only shooting weapon that confers +1 attack in combats
• Powerfists – if using a powerfist only secondary powerfists/thunder hammers will confer a +1 attack bonus. If using another special weapon eg. a power weapon powerfists may count towards the +1 attack bonus
• Morale checks (cant remember if diff) – now take a test if unit falling back pass through or touches normal unit
• Morale checks - -1 extra modifier to any other Ld test modifiers if below half strength
• Morale checks – If you lose an assault you gain a -1 modifier for every wound caused – my poor tau 
• If you are immune to psychology somehow when losing a combat you take as many wounds as you are outnumbered by e.g. outnumbered 2:1 equals 2 wounds (walkers + mc’s = 10 models)
• Falling Back – fleeing troops may not Go To Ground (pinning rule) or automatically pass pinning tests
• Falling Back units may shoot while moving or opt to run (moving towards closest table edge). You cannot assault when falling back
• Falling back troops automatically pass all morale checks except to regroup
• Regroup – can regroup falling units with a Ld test if further than 6” from nearest enemy unit and above half strength
• Regroup - +1 to roll needed if no enemy is visible or in area terrain
• Regroup – if regrouped can Assault and Run or Shoot (count as moving)
• Independent Characters – Move Through Cover and Skilled Rider rules
• Independent Characters – In combat must be in b2b and can be targeted separately
• MCs – Shoot at 1 target, cannot voluntarily pin
• (Dark) Eldar Jet bikes – May make an extra 6” movement in the Assault phase instead of assaulting
• Artillery – artillery units may not run, and may not assault if there is a gun
• Artillery – models hit on 1-4 and guns hit on a 5-6 (like in fantasy), guns are AV10 and will automatically be destroyed on a glancing or penetrating hit
• Artillery – automatically fail sweeping advance tests
• Roads – vehicle except walkers and skimmers may move at double speed if they use their full movement distance along a road
• Vehicles – if moving 6” or less (Combat speed) may fire one single weapon. If moving at 6-12” (Cruising speed) or more cannot shoot
• Defensive Weapons – Any weapon that is Strength 4 or less (defensive) may be fired when moving at Combat Speed and in addition to their main weapon
• Defensive Weapons – may not be fired if you’re using an Ordnance weapon that turn
• Ordnance Barrage – must be stationary to fire, no defensive weapons may be fired, pinning tests incur for wounded models
• New singular Damage Tables –
1.Crew Shaken (no shooting),
2.Crew Stunned (no movement or shooting
3. Damaged – 1 Weapon Destroyed, if none left Immobilised
4. Damaged – Immobilised, if already move to Wrecked
5. Damaged – Wrecked. Destroyed and becomes wreckage
6. Damaged – Explodes. 6” in all directions S3 Ap-. Vehicles not affected and ground becomes Difficult Terrain
• Modifiers:
Glancing hit -2
Hit by ‘AP–‘ weapon -1
Hit by ‘AP1’ weapon +1
Target is Open-topped +1
• Hull Down/Obscured – 50% of vehicle must be in terrain to be hull down
• Obscured units may take the appropriate cover save for the terrain if they get a Glancing/Penetrating hit. If obscured from wargear the save is always 5+
• Vehicles are not hull down if in open Area Terrain
• Shooting at Vehicles – if you cannot see 100% of one side the vehicle gains a 3+ cover save
• Assaulting Vehicles - you assaault the armour side that the majority of your unit are facing
• Vehicle Assaults – Troops Strength +D6 Armour Penetration
• Defensive Grenades (i.e. Photon Grenades) – 4+D6 AP vs. vehicles
• Defensive Granades - When charged by enemy units the grenades cause them to lose their +1 attack for charging
• Assault Grenades (i.e. Frag Grenades) – 5+D6 AP vs. Vehicles
• Assault Grenades - if assault enemy units in terrain the combat will be fough on initiative basis
• Krak Grenades – 6+D6 AP vs. Vehicles
• Melta Bombs – 8+2D6 AP vs. Vehicles
• Vehicle Squadrons – Immobilised vehicles may be abandoned and in the process are destroyed and wrecked
• Vehicle Squadrons –shoot at one unit per turn. If shot at hits distributed evenly
• Vehicle Squadrons – if assaulted count as separate vehicles
• Transport Fire Points – cannot shoot if at Cruising Speed, counts as moving
• Transport Embarking – all of the models within 2” of Access Point or no embarking allowed
• Transport Disembarking – may shoot but not assault (no mention of Running)
• Effects of Transport Damage on Passengers – Wrecked causes a Pinning Test and Explosion causes a S4 AP- hit and a pinning test
• Ramming Tanks – If ramming cannot shoot. To ram a tank you move in the same way as a Tank Shock. Causes damage to both tanks on the correct side. +1S for every armour point above 10 and +1 for every 3” moved +1, tank +1
• Open Topped Vehicles - +1 to result of vehicle damage
• Fast Vehicles – May choose to make a Flat Out move granting them 18” to move but cannot shoot
• Fast Vehicles Firing – At Combat Speed may move and shoot all weapons like a stationary vehicle e.g. ordnance weapons. At Cruising Speed may move and fire like normal vehicles’ combat speed
• Flat Out – cannot embark/disembark troops
• Skimmers – cannot end move over friendly/enemy troops
• Skimmers – if moving at Cruising or Flat Out speed count as obscured
• Skimmers – if at Cruising Speed or Flat Out and is immobilised it’s destroyed, if it at Combat Speed immobilised as normal and no longer a skimmer
• Skimmers – need a 6 to hit skimmers in combat
• Walkers – may Run
• Walkers – If stationary may fire all weapons, if at combat speed may fire one
• Walkers – If immobilised or Stunned in combat, loses one attack
• Walkers – May Death or Glory ramming moves
• Universal Special Rule – Eternal Warrior – immune to instant death
• Feel No Pain – cannot be used if you won’t receive an armour save
• Fleet – can Run and Assault
• Slow and Purposeful - Units with SaP have the Relentless special rule and count as moving through difficult terrain when moving
• Relentless - a unit may move, fire weapons as though they are stationary and then assault in the same turn
• Stealth – units receive a +1 to cover saves
• Stubborn – receive no Ld modifiers for morale checks
• Turbo Boosters – Jet Bikes and Bikes may move up to 20”, if moves more than 18” the model receives a 3+ save
• Standard Missions-
1-2 Recon
3-4 Take & Hold
5-6 Total Annihilation
• Standard Missions - all standard mission have the rules Reserves, Deep Strike, Random Game Length (All these missions have been changed)
• Recon – D3+2 markers. Control objective if you are within 3” and there are no enemies within 3”. Player with the most objectives wins
• Take & Hold – Player places an objective in each Deployment Zone, each objective is claimed if within 3” and no enemy units. Player with most wins
• Total Annihilation – Player with highest number of kill points wins. HQ=3 kill points. Heavy Elite Fast Attacks=2 Kill Points. Troops = 1 Kill Point
• Scoring Units – Troops are the only scoring units. Troops that are vehicles or falling back are not scoring units
• Deployment – Roll off for deployment type.
• 1-2 Spearhead (Table Quarters)
• 3-4 Pitched Battle (long edge)
• 5-6 Dawn of War (long edge) place 1HQ and 2Troop on the table and on your first turn models not already deployed can move on from the table edge, infiltrators may start as normal
• Deep Strike – if a unit deep strikes onto a unit/terrain/off the board you roll on the deep strike mishap table. 1=Destroyed, 2/3=unit removed counts as half strength for VP, 4/6= Opponent may place unit anywhere without scattering
• Random Game Length – if at end of turn 5 the player who just had their turn roll a d6 on a 3+ you play turn 6. At end of turn 6 roll a 4+ and turn 7 is played
• Reserves – on turn 5 or later units arrive automatically
• Outflanking Reserves – scouts/infiltrators may try to Outflank, on a d6 roll of 1-2 the unit enters play via left short edge, 3-4 enter via right short edge, 5-6 choose
• Reserves – Scouts/Infiltrators may flank in dedicated transports
• Victory Points – gain 50% of unit worth if unit is below half strength
• If BS is 6 or great you get a re-roll to hit if you miss (doesn’t Get Hot) e.g. BS6 need a 2 to hit and a 6 if you miss. BS7 2/5, BS8 2/4, BS9 2/3, BS10 2/2 (if you have a master-crafted weapon you get the same chance to hit as on your first shot)

Aurellis.


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## Allos (Nov 5, 2007)

• Skimmers – need a 6 to hit skimmers in combat


:shok: all that needs to be said


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Actually, I'm pleased to see that the 'always hit rear armour value in melee combat against vehicles' bit has been removed.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

• Blast weapons – all weapons with a blast, instead of rolling to hit automatically hit the target area chosen but scatter 2D6
So my plasma cannon doesn't overheat, but by bs of 4 means nothing...seems kind of dumb

• Consolidation moves at end of assault can only be used to enter already locked combats and not start them
Stupid, so I kill a unit, but than stand there right in front of another unit so it can shoot me to death. Stupid...

• Defensive Weapons – Any weapon that is Strength 4 or less (defensive) may be fired when moving at Combat Speed and in addition to their main weapon
Ruins a lot of tanks....

• Shooting at Vehicles – if you cannot see 100% of one side the vehicle gains a 3+ cover save
That save seems a little high, 4+ seems better


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Personally, 4th edition seems better, lol.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I think that consolidation no-moving into unlocked units rule is to prevent a unit of UberChosen from walking down an IG gunline.

I like the way this is looking. Seems much better then it was.
-Dirge


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Allos said:


> • Skimmers – need a 6 to hit skimmers in combat
> 
> 
> :shok: all that needs to be said


Umm....that is what it is now, nothing different there.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

asianavatar said:


> • Consolidation moves at end of assault can only be used to enter already locked combats and not start them
> Stupid, so I kill a unit, but than stand there right in front of another unit so it can shoot me to death. Stupid...


that breaks my army, thats the only way I am ever able to win


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

Lets not forget anything can still be changed at this point. That said, I really like what they've done so far. There are only a few things I'm not too happy about. Defensive weapons at st 4 is huge. This makes quiet a few tanks worthless. I don't like the consolidation only into locked combat and no new combat either. It does prevent a single squad from walking down an IG gun line tearing it to shreds, but players can prevent that by spacing their units and seems to change some tactics pretty seriously IMO.

On to the positive side, ramming is cool. Could bring in a lot of new tactics. Cover saves for pinned troops, this actually uses some common sense, FINALLY! Pinning tests for popped Rhino's passengers is great, no more auto entangle. I really like the toned down rending, but I know a lot of players (bugs in particular) will hate it. Running is a very nice addition, it will definately help out my Berzerkers and anyones CC troops.

My likes outweigh my dislikes by a pretty good margin. If 5th is anything like the pdf it will change the game quite a bit. Some for the better, some for the worst, but I think it will be an interesting change to say the least.


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

Some further clarification on some of the beta rules tha are currently on the web (whether it's true....)

Run: This is always a flat d6. Difficult terrain does not affect a Run move

Covering fire: When firing through an intervening unit, the intervening unit must be impossible to damage with the weaponry being fired. The beta example uses a tank as the intervening unit. Intervening models/units also confer a 4+ cover save to target.

BS6+: a second roll of 1 causes a Get Hot roll.

Pinning/go to ground: if unit chooses to go to ground then at the start of the next turn the pin is removed with no effect and unit is free to do as it wishes.

Blast Templates: According to the beta rules I am currently looking at Blast templates scatter d6 if stationary when fired, but scatter 2d6 if fired on move and must take highest value from the 2 die. And still need to roll a HIT on artillery die. Barrage seems unchanged.

Consolidation: What has beens stated earlier is not what i have. You cannot consolidate against locked/engaged enemy units, but unengaged enemy units are still fair game.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Hespithe said:


> Personally, 4th edition seems better, lol.


i agree with Hespithe


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i liked 3rd / or was it 2nd when guess range meant guess


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## ugh (Mar 21, 2008)

• Powerfists – if using a powerfist only secondary powerfists/thunder hammers will confer a +1 attack bonus. If using another special weapon eg. a power weapon powerfists may count towards the +1 attack bonus

So does that mean double powerfists will be a normal option? Go Angry Marines! :biggrin:


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

Me and a friend of mine had a game using 5th ed rules the other day and found it to be generally better than 4th ed. It was more fun (especially not being entangled when my rhinos were destroyed) and i'm REALLY looking forward to it.
The only rule we found that I do NOT agree with is:

"If assaulting enemy units into/out of/through cover and you had to taking a Difficult Terrain test your Initiative is reduced to 1 (if the enemy unit were locked in combat in the last turn this does not apply)"

I understand and agree if assaulting INTO cover. However, if assaulting OUT of cover they get penalised... why? Surely the purpose of a difficult terrain test to see how quickly my troops extricate themselves from the cover? Why are they penalised further? Surely a unit assaulting out of cover has ambushed/surprised their opponent and therefore it should be the unit being charged that is inititive 1...
I'd say for an assault army, particularly a marine assault army, the benefits of cover are completely negated. You may as well fight over desert plains for all the good it does you.

Anyway, that's my only gripe with the 5th ed rules that I played. Everything else worked and made the game more tactical and fun.


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

ugh said:


> • Powerfists – if using a powerfist only secondary powerfists/thunder hammers will confer a +1 attack bonus. If using another special weapon eg. a power weapon powerfists may count towards the +1 attack bonus
> 
> So does that mean double powerfists will be a normal option? Go Angry Marines! :biggrin:


 
Only if the cdexes allow it and my DA's doesn't :ireful2:


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Hmm, seems to be lots of good stuff in there with a few blips, which I imagine I'll get used to. 

I think my fave new addition though is the ramming, I have visions of Chaos Land Raiders ripping through Ork trucks already.


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

Druchii in Space said:


> Hmm, seems to be lots of good stuff in there with a few blips, which I imagine I'll get used to.
> 
> I think my fave new addition though is the ramming, I have visions of Chaos Land Raiders ripping through Ork trucks already.


How about a turbo boosting Master Sammael in AV14 Land Speeder... that's gonna pwn everything at ramming! :laugh:


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## aetherguy881 (Apr 7, 2008)

What about models that aren't effected by terrain, like wraiths and their wraithfight? I think the combat changes have been pretty bad.

Although GW has failed to mention whether or not powerfists in cover strike powerfists charging into cover...


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

aetherguy881 said:


> What about models that aren't effected by terrain, like wraiths and their wraithfight? I think the combat changes have been pretty bad.
> 
> Although GW has failed to mention whether or not powerfists in cover strike powerfists charging into cover...


Do wraiths have to roll for difficult terrain? No? They strike at normal initiative then.

Powerfists always strike at initiative 1...so a power fist charging into or out of cover is the same as a powerfist in the open... except that now you can hit everything else before they kill your guy with the p.fist.

Combat is very similar to how it is now, except that it's got a more WFB style approach to working out who won the combat, with modifiers to morale and so on.
One good thing is that everything that was in base to base at the start of the assault can strike now... no more removing models in contact with characters so that they can't strike!


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## Tau2007 (Jan 25, 2008)

Purge,
Think of it this way -- if you're assaulting out of a pile of rubble, or dense woods, or water; you're not going to be able to move as quickly and easily as if you were charging out of a building or on open ground. Also, think of the noise you'll make as you stumble over piles of stone or run through branches or come splashing out of the water.

For these reasons, I think the new rule makes sense.

Cheers,
Tau 2007

The only rule we found that I do NOT agree with is:

"If assaulting enemy units into/out of/through cover and you had to taking a Difficult Terrain test your Initiative is reduced to 1 (if the enemy unit were locked in combat in the last turn this does not apply)"

I understand and agree if assaulting INTO cover. However, if assaulting OUT of cover they get penalised... why? Surely the purpose of a difficult terrain test to see how quickly my troops extricate themselves from the cover? Why are they penalised further? Surely a unit assaulting out of cover has ambushed/surprised their opponent and therefore it should be the unit being charged that is inititive 1...
I'd say for an assault army, particularly a marine assault army, the benefits of cover are completely negated. You may as well fight over desert plains for all the good it does you.

Anyway, that's my only gripe with the 5th ed rules that I played. Everything else worked and made the game more tactical and fun.[/QUOTE]


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## Ludoldus (Apr 8, 2008)

Okay, today me and a buddy managed to do a semi-5th ed test run- we played 4th ed rules but 5th ed scenarios. It all seems good except Total Anihilation- The one where you are awarded Kill points. We were playing 750 pts a side, and i was playing my guard vs. balanced marines, and this game type sucked for me. I don't see how it is fair for him to get the same amount of kill points for killing a 100 pt. guard squad as i do when i kill a 200 pt. marine squad, and i think the Vp system was much better, even if it was a pain to add points up. It just doesn't make sense how i am (as guard) supposed to beat marines in this when i have a total of say 20 pts on offer and he only has 10 pts. Not happy with this change at all :angry: :ireful2:


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## Master Kashnizel (Jan 5, 2008)

@ Ludoldus

You do know that you dont have to play a mission, you can just play a friendly game. 500pts on each side and your off playing a fun and exhilirating table top game! (Exhilirating table top game. Wow I HAVE to stop hanging out with so many redshirts!)


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## stormshroud (Apr 27, 2007)

All in all that list sounds more promising than the earlier snippets I had heard. Some of my thoughts...

I am really not a fan of defensive weapons being S4 or less, that is going to cripple so many tanks.

Not being able to consolidate into an unengaged unit will hurt a lot of combat armies. Despite the benefit this will give my guard gunline I don't like the feel of it.

Something not mentioned (unless I missed it) can Slow and Purposeful units run??

Covering fire sounds good apart from the "When firing through an intervening unit, the intervening unit must be impossible to damage with the weaponry being fired." bit. so effectivle you cannot fire through infantry squads on the same level then?? Hmm I suddenly feel the need to build some large corner hills.

Ramming makes a welcome return can you now crush infantry with tanks or not?


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

These looks better than the previous pdf. Not sure why making defensive weapons str 4 is going to be doom for some tanks. Tanks are really for killing other tanks. Str 6 defensive weapons just made certain vehicals infantry killers.

I like the consolidation rule. Unless I have this wrong, you can still sweeping advance d6 into combat if you massacre the opponent, so rolling up a IG gun line would still be possible, although it would carry a risk. This means if your opponent runs away you will be left a little flat footed. This may happen more now the resoluton has changed slightly.

I'm not keen on template weapons scattering. Although on a plus side, this does mean I would have less chance of killing my own sqauds when the chaos dread goes into a fire frenzy.

And ramming is back, huzzah, finally killing stuff by driving really fast :grin:


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Not all tanks are designed to take out other tanks, mate, lol. Most IG tanks are anti-infantry at heart.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

That is a fair point, but IG tanks dont tend to move if they are supporting infantry. IG tanks have ordenance so they cant fire defensive weapons if they do that. It does mean taking sponsons would be a little less usefull, but they are cheap enough I would still have them. And I would concede that is likly to mean the end of the predator destructor as an anti infantry tank.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

That's kinda odd, cause mine rarely stay put, lol. The problem is this, as far as I see it: the new rules pretty much define the roles of units that would otherwise be able to multitask. Now battle tanks MUST bunker up. I used mine as an armoured advanced. My LRMBTs and Chimeras w/ Command Squads within usually won Recon missions for me. Having to Pillbox my units in order to see any sort of productivity or usefullness is really shortsighted and a deathknell, not to my army, but to the army I enjoy playing. Sure IG can still go on, and I'm sure many people will love the IG under the new rules, but the army I built to my liking is taking a severe hit.

These rules are so geared toward making the previously unsuable the mandatory options that nearly all armies are needing to be completely revamped. This is not something that came about from a gamers observations, but rather by the corporate bankroll backing the GW dev team. The hobby aspect is taking a huge it so that the pound can circulate in GW's favour. I'm simply not willing to pay GW to dismantle my armies.

The rules are not balanced and go a very long way toward dumbing down the game. Tanks can only be used in one manner... Transports can only be used in one manner... pity the guy who used tanks with transport capacity.


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## stormshroud (Apr 27, 2007)

I agree with Hespithe my mechanised guard are firmly in the firing line with these rules. My chimers and variant LR's (things like the Executioner and Exterminator that don't have ordanance on the turret) can no longer move if the want to be effective gun platforms. And if they don't move then I can't get to objectives, unless I get out and move then 'run'. Then a basic guardsman can outrun a tank :shok: :no:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Here is a quote from BoLS:



> Hi all, well it looks like the rumor floodgates are opening. Here are today's tidbits regarding the upcoming book. These come to BoLS from a little bird who has taken a gander at the final product.
> 
> Charge Response Move: The response move is exactly the same as the countercharge rule. Every unit gets it, but models that already have Countercharge (like Space Wolves) gain +1 Attack as if they had charged themselves.
> 
> ...


So vehicles are indeed going to be the pillbox pieces of shit they were rumoured to be. Great. My interest in 40K just dropped to nearly 0%. Might as well play Fantasy as that seems to be what they are trying to turn 40K into.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Some vehicles are buffed and others are nerfed, just as some other units are buffed and nerfed. Configurations which are good now will cease to be good and others will work better. Fine.

It really is not true to say that all vehicles are nerfed. Take a Leman Russ for example:

- Thanks to the new damage tables it is now tougher.
- Thanks to the new cover saves it is now harder to prevent from firing.
- It's battlecannon now gets a full hit if it touches a base, not a partial. Way more hits now. There really won't be a lot of situations where it's better to fire the heavy bolters because of this.
- It can ram. Actually, it can ram really well.

Negatives:
- It isn't a scoring unit.
- It can't fire 3 heavy bolters on the move any more.

I'm pretty sure that Leman russ are now tougher and better at killing stuff, and no less manouevrable while firing their main guns than they are now. Do people really take a 155 point tank just for 3 mobile BS3 heavy bolters anyway?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

"Missions: Troops are the only scoring units but they count as scoring till the last man. They must be destroyed entirely to remove their scoring status."

I personally like this rule, if solely for the reason that it gives me a reason to bring a six man chaos marine squad over a six man havoc squad with more options.

It seems like they're trying to shy away from everyone filling out the three heavy support choices like they were mandatory in order to win. Although it puts much more of a strain on listbuilding and having the edge before the pieces even hit the table. 

Although I'm not much of a treadhead, from what I've seen/read about it seems my rhinos improved, demolisher improved, predator is...arguable. Having a tougher vehicle that can't fire on the run versus a dead tank that could of fired is a hard choice to make.


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## stormshroud (Apr 27, 2007)

In games where holding objectives is going to be key having a mobile fire platform is a huge assest, even if if can't now claim the objective itself. It also makes a lot of the FW variants not worth there points, a lot of them offer the advantage that they can move and fire all weapons - Conqueror, Exterminator, Executioner all spring to mind.

4th Edition commonly got nicknamed the Skimmer Edition, 5th Edition will be the Horde Edition. Maxed out troop choices will be the order of the day. I expect to see a rapid growth in the all infantry army, especially Orks (180 boyz ftw) and infantry guard armies. I think tanks will become less and less popular, yes they may be tougher but they aren't scoring units and in order to fire effectively will need to remain stationary.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

I can see infiltrating units becoming a lot more popular in the future too. Getting a unit behind meaty cover in a table quarter and your opponents got to kill all the blighters to remove their scoring status. On the plus side this means my plague marines are going to be _even_ more difficult to remove! But Feel No Pain doesn't count against weapons that would ignore armour saves...blast.
I agree with Hespithe that tanks are going to be even more difficult to use in multi-role situations. I mean, basilisks aren't going to be crying over spoilt movement, but my rhino's havoc launcher is now pooped (along with scatter rules), as are chaos combi weapons really.
I'm ambivalent about the new powerfist rules. Yes, they reduce attacks, but how long have people been complaining about the 'hidden fist' rules now? I'm liking the new 'run' rule as well, makes a lot of sense. If you're outranged and under fire then you're damn well going to hustle, no?
What happened to skimmers moving fast? Is it gone? Please....?


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## Dezartfox (Jan 19, 2008)

Bah I don't like infantry.. orks are fine.. but I play tau and don't like fw's D: what on earth am I going to do D:

Oh.. Daemon army


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## Allos (Nov 5, 2007)

Estragon said:


> I agree with Hespithe that tanks are going to be even more difficult to use in multi-role situations. I mean, basilisks aren't going to be crying over spoilt movement, but my rhino's havoc launcher is now pooped (along with scatter rules), as are chaos combi weapons really.


Combi weapons on Vehicles doesn't change to much from 4th to 5th. The only difference I see is that Defensive weapons are str 4, At least for a Rhino you have a combi and a bolter on it you can still fire both going at combat speed( up to 6")


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Allos said:


> Combi weapons on Vehicles doesn't change to much from 4th to 5th. The only difference I see is that Defensive weapons are str 4, At least for a Rhino you have a combi and a bolter on it you can still fire both going at combat speed( up to 6")


This kills 90% of the vehicles out there that had Heavy Bolters/Heavy Flamers as well as Tau's Burst Cannons/SMS weapons.

That parts lame. I think I like most of the other rules though. Im still waiting to see how this will affect Daemonhunters/Grey Knights and the new 5th Edition SM for my Ultramarines.. (crossing my fingers that they wont die  )


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## GhostBear (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm not one much for following the rumor mill. The talk about Defensive weapon strength had me wondering, why not set defensive Str to 4 and have an allowance? Something like: For each point of Str above 4 the BS for firing the weapon is reduced by 1 or 2, if the BS is reduced to 0 the weapon is assumed to automatically miss and can't be fired. Reducing the BS of a vehicle seems more in line with replicating the difficulty of hitting moving targets while on the move, rather then saying a fully loaded tank with a driver and several gunners can't shoot because they moved.

I absolutely despise the Scoring unit rules rumored in 5th Ed. Since Marines have the Special Universal rule that let's them rally even below half strength they get a huge advantage over most armies since unless you have a special rule (Ork Mobs) of your own or special wargear (Tau Bonding Knife), your troops may just leave the board without you having a chance of them ever rallying.

My two cents on a couple of the rumors


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Get rid of most of the changes to vehicles and the new system would be improved dramatically. 4th Edition vehicle rules had a few problems, but nothing that actually made the model kits themselves obsolete.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

i also am not one to follow the rumors too closely, but there are a few things i'm not enjoying.

outright, thank whatever higher being there is that falcons can DIE! DIE DIE DIE DEAD CRUSHED MAIMED BURNT DEAD F*CKING GONE!...(i hate unkillable stuff)

the fact that a powerfist bolt pistol combo doesn't add an extra dice to the fist is utter crap. if you have a powerfist reaching for your skull you still don't ignore the fact that a bolt pistol is blasting your stomach to ribbons at the same time..

i honestly agree on the reduction of BS if the tank moved rather then not firing sponsons. the whole point of sponsons are to shoot them off. now their 30 or so extra points that could be more effective elsewhere, which seems wrong to me. i feel for this reason alone tanks will slowly disapear from the feild of battle.

personaly i like run as an ability, but i believe it should function exactly like fleet of foot. i feel fleet of foot models should get a bonus to there rolls like an extra 3" to round their roll up to the full 6 or something, something to modify it to make sure their stuff will almost always atleast go a decent distace.no more fleeting a 1.

the attacking in and out of cover at initative 1 makes sence to me, but i agree that terrian will play less of a factor in games this way.


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## Casmiricus (Mar 6, 2008)

My one major complaint with the 'new' rules:

S4 defensive weaponry...

WHAT THE FUCK. How is a heavy bolter supposed to be a 'main' gun? This absolutely nerfs my Leman Russ exterminator. I mean, the real strength of my army is my men, and always has been. But I spent so much time modelling and painting that tank. Now it's not going to be any fun to take to the battlefield anymore.

Really, I agree with everyone else that S6 defensive weaponry was a *bit* wigged out. But how on earth can you justify putting a man-portable machine gun like the Heavy-Bolter as a 'main' weapon?

The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot. An autocannon? Hell yes, it's a friggin' CANNON. A Multi-melta? Definitely. An Assault Cannon? Well, pushing the envelope a bit, but it makes a bit of sense due to the recoil.

But a Heavy Bolter? No.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

amen, brother.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I never understood why tanks suffered weapons penalties at all. Think about it. You have a guy who's ENTIRE JOB is to fire the sponson heavy bolters, and yet he's so preoccupied watching the enemy walk by, he can't fire?

-Dirge


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

I think that they put penelties on weapons because there is a range of things that can happen on the battlefield that would prohibit you to shoot. A gun can get jammed or stuck somehow, a piece may have been damaged due to enemy fire, the gunner my have ducked to protected himself from a barrage of bullets. I agree though, they have really gone to far to that end.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Lets take a look at an M1-A3 for an example..

You have 4 people and 4 guns (sometimes just 3 but usually 4)

You have the Driver. Never touches a gun unless hes outside the tank. Has no option to touch gun controls. Totally focused on driving.

You have the Loader. Only handles the shells for the main gun. Has a few other tasks but his primary focus is the main gun and its shells. He has access to a top hatch (think pintle mounted) M-240 machine gun but he must be exposed to fire it so rather than pintle mount its more like access point firing.

You have the Tank Commander. His job is finding and authorizing to fire the main gun and typical command decisions. He has access to a top hatch (think pintle mounted) .50 caliber machine gun though he can use this weapon without exposing himself so it really is pintle mounted.

Lastly you have the Gunner. He acquires targets and fires the main gun (though not without commander approval). He also has a coaxial mounted M-240 machine gun.

So you got 4 guns. The gunner can only fire the Main Gun or his 240 but not really both at the same time. The commander has to approve all targets and find more targets for the Gunner while simultaneously communicating with leadership, other tanks, and troops outside the tank so no time to really shoot a gun during combat. The Loader who if hes loading the Main Gun has no time to be at his hatch shooting a gun. Lastly the driver who has no time to do anything but drive and couldnt shoot if he wanted to. So you get 1 to 2 guns shooting at any point in time at best.

With all that being said I say whats the point of our tanks having multiple guns if their not going to allow us to shoot them???? We are paying for the tanks to have all these guns and I think they should be allowed to shoot them. Seriously Land Raider Crusaders with 4-5 weapon mounts, Leman Russ's with another 4-5 mounts, Predators/LR with 3 to 4.. why have all those weapons if you can't shoot them all??? Why can a Dreadnought or Terminator be able to walk, shoot 2 weapons, and assualt if a tank with 3-4 people in it cant (rules wise not real world)???? Why should I pay 50 dollars for a vehicle model that takes hours to put together just to have it sit around stunned/shaken for half a game because of how easy it is to stun and shake them?


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## Chase.man259 (Apr 30, 2008)

As other have said I think that theese rules wether GW meant it or not really are gonna emphisize on infantry and less on tanks.

Although the S4 wepons things kinda makes sense to me. it really makes you think about if i need to move my tank now or do i need those extra shots now. To me it makes it more of an issue of judgment. I mean to me it really dosen't make alot of sence that at tank can be at cruising speed and still take the time to shoot all its guns at full accuracy.

I belive the person said that the more you move the less likely high strength wepons are to hit, hit the nail on the head.

As big a hit this is to all those mechanized armies(?) I feel your pain but lets be reasonable. but hey this is just my view and im liking most of the new rules. =)


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## Brother Enok (Apr 17, 2008)

As it stands, me and my friends will be using 4th Ed when these rules come out.
The rules for vehicles just take too much fun out of it. Saying that we may just cherry pick the rules we like.

Seriously, Crusaders under the new rules just don't make sense.


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## Lord Pestilice (Jan 21, 2008)

Bishop120 said:


> Lets take a look at an M1-A3 for an example..
> 
> You have 4 people and 4 guns (sometimes just 3 but usually 4)
> 
> ...



First off, as a Tank Platoon Leader I have to make a quick correction or two. M1-A3? :no: What vehicle are you talking about?? The newest version the US Army has is the M1-A2 SEP version 2. I have 4 of those.....correction, after the IED 2 weeks ago, I have 3 still functioning. There is no M1-A3. Im not even aware of any proto type vehicle with that designation.

Yes, the Loader can fire the M240 when not loading the main gun. Not that we shoot many main gun rounds here in Iraq. Given that fact, we can easily have the gunner's coax and the loader's 240 firing at the same time. 

Now the TC .50 cal has changed. In the M1-A1 the TC could safely shoot it down inside with the help of two different control levers. On the M1-A2 SEP, you have to actually get up and expose the upper half of your body to fire. However, with the new urban package upgrades (TUSK system) level 2 IIRC, the TC's .50 cal becomes a remote weapon system once again. In certain circumstances, you CAN have all three machine guns firing at once. A rare situation indeed. 

But I whole heartedly agree what what you say abou the rules....all that money for a mobile weapons platform that cannot use most (if any) of it's weapons every turn? What is the point? :threaten: That is why I go vehicle light anymore.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Interesting account LP.

What you describe parallels quite well with a Leman russ tank. You have a main gun that takes the attention of pretty-much everyone to fire, or everyone can fire his own machine gun. They don't happen at the same time.

The odd thing in 5th is that the main gun's operation is not limited by movement but the defensive guns are. I'd have thought there'd be little to prevent the gunner using the coax and the commander using the pintle mount gun as you drove along. The loader might have some problems if he has to go half outside the tank to fire his gun, as he'd have to eat flies a lot.

The odd thing we have though is where in 40k it's actually easier to fire a hand held weapon off a vehicle as it moves than it is to fire the vehicles own weaponry. Passengers can fire after a vehicle has moved 12", when the vehicle itself can't fire at all. I really can't see any justification for this at all.


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## Lord Pestilice (Jan 21, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Interesting account LP.
> 
> What you describe parallels quite well with a Leman russ tank. You have a main gun that takes the attention of pretty-much everyone to fire, or everyone can fire his own machine gun. They don't happen at the same time.
> 
> ...



YOu are correct. Trying to accurately fire my M4 from the tank while moving is difficult. Trying to fire the .50 cal on the move is much easier as it is locked down to the top of the turret and therefore stabilized. Hell, you can fire any of the vehilce weapons while moving at a good clip, but the accuracy really will depend on the difficulty of the terrain, not the speed of the tank itself.


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## mykl_c (May 10, 2008)

Sadly it looks like there'll be a lot of new troop sales and a lot of peeved long term players.

Regards the tank issue - the crew reqs for many guns are different - do you need to load a laser, flame or plasma weapon in battle? The rule about all weapons having to fire at one unit is also far from realistic, assuming a gunner at each weapon. It also discounts ai assist.
From what I've heard about the ramming rules, it's tanks ONLY, not any vehicle, as all damage is calculated on armour.

It does seem to simplify things for the new starters. Perhaps that and the core box sales are the point?


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Lord Pestilice said:


> YOu are correct. Trying to accurately fire my M4 from the tank while moving is difficult. Trying to fire the .50 cal on the move is much easier as it is locked down to the top of the turret and therefore stabilized. Hell, you can fire any of the vehilce weapons while moving at a good clip, but the accuracy really will depend on the difficulty of the terrain, not the speed of the tank itself.


I am a Tactical Operator for a Metro SWAT Team and we shoot from both moving patrol vehicles and our Armored Vehicle. Since we're Law Enforcement we don't have any vehicle mounted weapon systems, although we are required to be proficient at engaging targets with our shoulder fired weapons. I agree its very difficult to engage man sized targets from a moving vehicle. Its easier if your moving toward the target to acquire a sight picture however if your moving laterally its very difficult. 

Difficulty increases with the speed of the vehicle, target movement, and the terrain your moving across. Additionally you have to engage your target before your actual sight picture is acquired on target, essentially shooting just to either side of the target depending on your speed and range. Its a lot of on the fly calculating in your head to get good hit let alone a fatal one.

If your firing from the firing ports it quantifies everything, and it becomes dangerous for you and your fellow team members. If the vehicle hits a large bump that knocks you off balance or your weapon out of the port while your firing you run the risk of discharging a round inside the vehicle. I'm sure you can imagine what a 5.56mm rifle round bouncing around your passenger compartment is capable of. 

During a deployment our Team Leader actually ended up shooting a spot light off the vehicle while he was engaging a suspect in a second story window :laugh: So there are a lot of battle field factors we take for granted when playing 40k. Just thought I would share my personal experience on the topic. Have a good day.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Let's keep the discussion on topic guys.

I like the discussion going on regarding real world movement and tanks and how they operate compared to 40K but that is best suited to Off Topic. Let's keep this thread focused on 5th Ed rumours.


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## blaablaa (May 23, 2008)

• "Feel No Pain – cannot be used if you won’t receive an armour save"

WOW that ruins my phoenix lord so much now hes even easier to kill.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Some newer facts (as opposed to rumours) from reading the book. Most of what you see on page 1 is correct by the way.

Scenarios: 

The person who is going second *may* roll a dice before turn one. If he chooses to, and he rolls a 6, he actually goes first. So the person deploying thinking he's going first can't take it absolutely for granted.

Kill points are now 1 KP per unit, regardless of unit type. A character with a retinue gives 2 KPs, 1 for the char and 1 for the retinue. I still hate this system.

Minor change in take and hold. You put the objectives down before deploying armies, not during. Previously the person who deployed first would have to set up not knowing what he was meant to be attacking, so an improvement here I think.

Line of sight and wound allocation:

Wounds can be allocated to models anywhere in the unit, including out of sight and range.

Saves are not rolled individually, quite, but for groups of identical models. Hits are allocated 1 per model, then a 2nd per model, then a 3rd and so on, as you would expect. On a unit of guys with the same gear you just roll all the saves and take off casualties as in 4th. 

Things are a bit different for "complex units". So, say for example a devastator squad with a sergeant, 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers and 5 normal guys takes 20 wounds. The sergeant has to take 2 saves, 4 go on lascannon guys, 4 on missile launchers and 10 on bolter guys.

This makes it a bit harder to waste low AP shots by stacking them all on the same model, unless you have a unique guy you don't need. In earlier rumoured rules it looked like you might be able to put multiple low AP shots on the same guy, but now they will go on a group of identical guys.

There's quite a big example to demonstrate this in the rulebook.


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## freepizza (May 23, 2008)

Doh so i guess were back to the screen door method from third edition. Hamburger edition scouts, termigants, grots etc to take the blunt of the fire while the others fire over the top of the meat troops.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Interestingly, Swarms don't give a cover save to units behind them if they are inbetween the shooter and the shootee, so to speak.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> Purge,
> Think of it this way -- if you're assaulting out of a pile of rubble, or dense woods, or water; you're not going to be able to move as quickly and easily as if you were charging out of a building or on open ground. Also, think of the noise you'll make as you stumble over piles of stone or run through branches or come splashing out of the water.
> 
> For these reasons, I think the new rule makes sense.
> ...


you only say that cause you play tau!! :laugh:


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

asianavatar said:


> • Consolidation moves at end of assault can only be used to enter already locked combats and not start them


that breaks my khorne


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Lord Pestilice said:


> First off, as a Tank Platoon Leader I have to make a quick correction or two. M1-A3? :no: What vehicle are you talking about?? The newest version the US Army has is the M1-A2 SEP version 2. I have 4 of those.....correction, after the IED 2 weeks ago, I have 3 still functioning. There is no M1-A3. Im not even aware of any proto type vehicle with that designation.
> 
> Yes, the Loader can fire the M240 when not loading the main gun. Not that we shoot many main gun rounds here in Iraq. Given that fact, we can easily have the gunner's coax and the loader's 240 firing at the same time.
> 
> ...


Roger that.

I think that an elegant solutionthat GW could have made was to give each vehicle a # for crew, with that representing how many non- ordinance weapons can be fired period.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

blaablaa said:


> • "Feel No Pain – cannot be used if you won’t receive an armour save"
> 
> WOW that ruins my phoenix lord so much now hes even easier to kill.


Don't leave something so important out where it can be lit up. Ask any veteran of the armed forces they will tell you the same. OPEN AREAS ARE DEATH, PERIOD.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

You cannot consolidate into CC, even if it would be into units that are already locked. You can only join or start CC at the start of the assault phase.


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## general (Feb 1, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Got this from the gents at Warseer:
> • Running – instead of shooting can opt to run d6” (cannot assault) (note Fleet of Foots advantage now is that you can assault)


So eldar are being screwed over. They used fleet to make them fast, as most of their wepons are short range. Now, it means they can assault after running. Great, except... most eldar aren't assault units. So they have fleet, but its pointless for most units as most (e.g. guardian defenders) specialise in close range firefights not cc!


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

Well i guess Death guard / Nurgle Daemon armys are screwed now:angry:


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

yeah, I kinda don't know how I'm going to win with my Black Templars. Maybe go all bolters.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Judas Masias said:


> Well i guess Death guard / Nurgle Daemon armys are screwed now:angry:


How? We can run, use cover and supporting fire just like anyone else. We also don't give up at the first few wounds either.:laugh:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Engelus said:


> yeah, I kinda don't know how I'm going to win with my Black Templars. Maybe go all bolters.


Use mutualy supporting squads, have a bolter armed squad advance with an assault armed squad, fire at squads near the squad to be assaulted, minimizing the return fire at the assault squad, both through attrition, and a target rich environment.


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## TrentLanthier (Apr 28, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> Use mutualy supporting squads, have a bolter armed squad advance with an assault armed squad, fire at squads near the squad to be assaulted, minimizing the return fire at the assault squad, both through attrition, and a target rich environment.


That sounds remarkably like.. tactics...


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

TrentLanthier said:


> That sounds remarkably like.. tactics...


I know, weird idea isin't it,:crazy: tactics in a wargame.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Just a quick thought. I haven't seen any rules other than an ancient leaked copy. With the defensive wepons on tanks getting screwed up, which really effects Tau tanks. Any chance that "Assault" class weapons will be exempt from firing restrictions? That would allow those burst cannons a little more leway.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I am really looking forward to the launch of the 5th ed., people will have to think about how they play for a change. 31 days left!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

mrrshann618 said:


> Just a quick thought. I haven't seen any rules other than an ancient leaked copy. With the defensive wepons on tanks getting screwed up, which really effects Tau tanks. Any chance that "Assault" class weapons will be exempt from firing restrictions? That would allow those burst cannons a little more leway.


This is a rumour that was going around for a while, but is totally untrue. Assault weapons have no additional benefit when mounted on vehicles.

Hammerheads may be the single best tank in 5th edition. Disruption pods allow them a 4+ cover save pretty much all the time, their AP 1 railguns get +1 on damage charts, submunitions hit more stuff, they aren't destroyed if immobilised and so on. They are massively buffed. *Much* harder to kill than in 4th (if you take the 5 point bit of wargear), much harder to prevent from firing, more dangerous to infantry. They only suffer in that they can't fire their secondary weps if they go over 6", but they usually don't need to do that.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Monoliths are way up there for amazing vehicles with the new 5th ed. rules.
They can only be destroyed by penetrating hits, unlike other vehicles that can be destroyed if they are immobalised and have no weapons left etc.
They can be immobalised, but are not destroyed and fight on from where they land.
The P-Whip is a S9 Ordinance, and the centre hole counts as AP1!
They are skimmers so can only be hit on 6s in CC, and with AV14 on all sides the new "always hit back armour in CC" rule does not bother them. You can't use extra armour penetration dice against it.
It can deep strike. It can portal friendly units out of CC. All its weapons are Gauss. 

And it is cheaper than a Land Raider.


I don't think it is over powered at all


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

darklove said:


> Monoliths are way up there for amazing vehicles with the new 5th ed. rules.
> They can only be destroyed by penetrating hits, unlike other vehicles that can be destroyed if they are immobalised and have no weapons left etc.
> They can be immobalised, but are not destroyed and fight on from where they land.
> The P-Whip is a S9 Ordinance, and the centre hole counts as AP1!
> ...


Probably the first thing up against the wall when the new dex comes in '09


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't see the new rules killing any army more than 4th did.

I just see it as an opportunity to re-visit all of my old armies with a few new models.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> They are skimmers so can only be hit on 6s in CC


Rumour has it that being a skimmer no longer confers this benefit, only the distance moved now. So a Monolith moving at top speed is a whopping 6" and can be hit on 4's in cc.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

wait, a monolith is cheaper than a landraider?

I had no idea, I thought it was 15 points more.
weak.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Engelus said:


> wait, a monolith is cheaper than a landraider?
> 
> I had no idea, I thought it was 15 points more.
> weak.


Refer to my previous post:laugh:


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## Alaric (Jun 10, 2008)

i have this PDF at home and i like it in some ways. i like how shooting is if you can see it you can shoot it. some things that will be killers against the armies i play ( necron, Space marines, and Inquisition. ) all horde armies will kill me in combat becaause if your not fearless any 1 model over your unit size is a -1 to your leadership and you test at the end to see if you stay in combat they have 18 i have 10 i am autobroke! i thought space marines never ran!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Alaric said:


> i have this PDF at home and i like it in some ways. i like how shooting is if you can see it you can shoot it. some things that will be killers against the armies i play ( necron, Space marines, and Inquisition. ) all horde armies will kill me in combat becaause if your not fearless any 1 model over your unit size is a -1 to your leadership and you test at the end to see if you stay in combat they have 18 i have 10 i am autobroke! i thought space marines never ran!


they ain't runnin, they are repositioning themselves so they can regain the advantage, space marines never run unless it is towards a fight:laugh: try support from other squads. Break the opponent up into blocks that make fights more of a 1 on 1 fight for your marines. Try to have 2-3 squads within a relatively close proximity to each other. this way they can focus on a few of the enemy instead of being distributed to where they are swamped by all of the opposition. tat should take care of that problem of being outnumbered in most circumstances.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

SM's in general through the editions have been subject to one style of saving grace when it comes to being outnumbered.

As an "Elite" army they are (accordingto fluff) going to be outnumbered. In many places in the various rule books it mentions that a Marine is worth 10 Guard (quotes and such) Last edition had the rule where marines didn't retreat they took extra wounds. Many horde armies are going to have lower I scores (not all) which lets the marines do more damage than can be refelected back. Making the chance to take a test, less.

I personally would not be supprised to find some sort of rule that allowed SM's to ignore masses untill a certain point (twice as many mobs) then the chart kicks in.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

And what about us Chaos players with no ATSKNF? We're just as outnumbered as the loyalists. True, we get an extra point of Ld, but so what? We can stay in combat when out numbered by eight with snake eyes? Granted, it's an extra application for my enormous propensity for rolling towards the extremes, but even so. Better grab a couple more icons of Chaos Glory...


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## Iacomus (Aug 5, 2007)

general said:


> So eldar are being screwed over. They used fleet to make them fast, as most of their wepons are short range. Now, it means they can assault after running. Great, except... most eldar aren't assault units. So they have fleet, but its pointless for most units as most (e.g. guardian defenders) specialise in close range firefights not cc!


I always liked to rumble the GD's up blaze away and then assult. That way I got to choose the impaact, and the +1 bonus. added to the avitar being close at hand meant that I was fearless in CC. Now that the reciever gets to pile in before combat, that may change.



Son of mortarion said:


> Use mutualy supporting squads, have a bolter armed squad advance with an assault armed squad, fire at squads near the squad to be assaulted, minimizing the return fire at the assault squad, both through attrition, and a target rich environment.


not to mention some neophiies to absorb wounds...


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Please don't double post, just edit the post you just made with further replies.


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## ogretyrant83 (Jun 13, 2008)

The monolith has always been hard as nails but the thing is ya can deal with one and ppl rarely have 2 in a normal size game as then all ya do is concentrate on the infantry and they will fade away in no time!


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## Genki (Jun 17, 2008)

Sorry im new so I dont know how the "tank ramming" jazz works. If someone would care to explain (perhaps not here so it wont divert from topic) then I would be grateful.


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## CommanderDuskstorm (Jan 31, 2008)

As many people have said, the str 4 defensive weapons sucks baals. It sucks to know I've wasted soooo much money on tanks that'll just sit on my shelf. My biggest problem with the 5th ed. rules I've heard is the nerfing of "Feel no pain". Not being able to take a FNP test unless I can take an armour save against it first is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If they're going to nerf FNP as it's rumoured then I implore GW to change the name of the "special" rule. Feel no pain should be exactly as it sounds, You should be able to take a FNP test against almost any weapon.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

CommanderDuskstorm said:


> As many people have said, the str 4 defensive weapons sucks baals. It sucks to know I've wasted soooo much money on tanks that'll just sit on my shelf. My biggest problem with the 5th ed. rules I've heard is the nerfing of "Feel no pain". Not being able to take a FNP test unless I can take an armour save against it first is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If they're going to nerf FNP as it's rumoured then I implore GW to change the name of the "special" rule. Feel no pain should be exactly as it sounds, You should be able to take a FNP test against almost any weapon.


the rule is feel no pain, not "nothing can stop me" the rule is to represent the model continuing to fight after a debilitating, but not necessarily lethal injury. those injuries that fnp does not work against are LETHAL. Period. it isn't nerfing, it is only making how the rule works against shooting consistent with how it works ahainst close combat attacks.


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

Genki said:


> Sorry im new so I dont know how the "tank ramming" jazz works. If someone would care to explain (perhaps not here so it wont divert from topic) then I would be grateful.


We are forced to make it short, since you'll read it in some days 
Ramming is like a tank assault on infantry, except you're intending to wreck another vehicle with yours.
There is a math, depending of the speed and other facts of your tank, to calculate if you render.
In return you get a hit relative to your speed.
So armoured skimmers or unused transport can become expensive tank killers at full speed ^^


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## Octavian (Jun 5, 2008)

I am liking all of this exept the S4 and lower defensive weapon, now a land raider cant fire all three his weapons:cray:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Octavian said:


> I am liking all of this exept the S4 and lower defensive weapon, now a land raider cant fire all three his weapons:cray:


it can still fire all three, just not while moving, which was the way it was in third.


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## Octavian (Jun 5, 2008)

Thats what I meant,sorry


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

As for the possible defensive tank rules... I never use tanks and I feel it for those treadheads... Hell, during my training in the Finnish Army up in Lapland, it didn't take a genius to fire the manual .50 caliber accurately up top on the 'Tekka' (bi segmented treaded lightly armored troop transport for dense forests and arctic warfare) while the driver put the pedal to the metal and dodged trees and almost ramped small hills... And we were trained for guerrilla warfare and reconnaissance... I don't see how a highly trained committed gunner could be so incompetent that he can't fire his auto-targeting nerve-grafted twin linked heavy bolter (or assault cannon for that matter) from inside the heavily armored confines of his tank while traveling over smooth ground when whichever of my squad members who 'got dibs' on the machine gun was quite capable of firing it accurately enough from the top hatch up front to dispatch enemy infantry while we careened through the forests of Lapland in a treaded tin can piloted by a speed hungry overzealous driver. (Those damn crazy tekka drivers...).

As for assaulting through cover, some people were complaining about assaulting out of cover and how it will force them to attack at initiative 1. If one is securely positioned at the edge of cover, one can move ones troops out of the cover during the movement phase, and then assault the enemy when one has moved out of cover, that way one does not have to make an assault move through cover, and thus does not have ones initiative reduced. With regard to the comment about 'ambushing' from cover should make this rule redundant, I must add that not only will the unit in cover be stumbling over rocks and through trees if they were unfortunate enough to assault out of cover, but they will also probably have given away their position long before by madly blazing away with their lasguns/shootas/bolters before the enemy came within assault range, as I have never encountered an imp guard player who sat his platoons quietly in cover and waited for the hormagaunts/berzerkers/random tentacled frothing heretics to get close enough without firing a single shot so that he could surprise and ambush them with his mighty strength 3 bayonets... Just a thought.


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

Sorry if I have difficulties to read your posts, since they are monoblocs ^^

I'll just say that a load of units comes with frag grenades that nullify the initiative problem in covers for CC.


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## Tripple Deuce Command (Jul 1, 2008)

thanks! being new to 40k ive never used the old rules......so its all new to me lol

i played a game in grimsby gw store and the guy went through the rules and we had a little game and i think the rules make much more sense and are more realistic to a combat enviorment espicially the line of sight rule and the ability to lie you models down to get into cover.


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