# How do the Dark Angels explain what happened to Caliban and the Lion??



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Was just thinking earlier, i wonder how the Dark Angel explain what happened to the Lion and the Rock? I imagine Russ and others would have been rather curious as to how Caliban was destroyed and the Lion lost. We know the Dark Angels don't tell anyone about the Fallen or what happened. Looking for some serious answers but feel free to add more entertaining ones.

I've got an image of Russ, Guilliman and any other currently survivng primarchs turning up at the remains of the rock 

Russ and co. - wtf happened here? wheres the lion?!
Dark Angel 1 looking at whats left of Caliban - fuck me! when the fuck did that happen? Did you see that happen
Dark Angel 2 -me? fuck no, you?
Dark Angel 3 -no way, shit, guess um it must have exploded or something........
Russ and co. - exploded........?
Dark Angel 1,2,3 - .........yes, because of.........Horus!
Russ and co. - Oh yes horus of course, yes that could make sense. um sorry for your loss
Dark Angel 1 - Thank you brothers, this is a hard time...
(dark angels in the background taking luther inside to his cell)
Russ and co. - Hey is that luther?
Dark Angel 2 - Who? luther? noooooo.
Russ and co. - There! right there shackled up and mumbling
Dark Angel 3 - Naaaaah that's um......
Dark Angel 2 - Bob!
Russ and co. - Bob?......
Dark Angel 1 - Yeaaaaah, you know bob! always joking about, no doubt pulled a prank on someone again!
Russ and co. Random marine - Oh the guy who replaced our Librarians staff with a magic wand??
Dark Angel 1 - .........yes!
Russ and co. - Hmmmm well ok then, good luck with the cleaning, and if Jonson does turn up tell him to return my calls


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I dont think it would be a massive issue to feed the Inquisition (and other interested parties) some suitable lies.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Do the wolves really give a shit? I really don't think they care.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

I believe that the Wolves had a fairly strong resentment of the Dark Angels. Leman Russ might have cared simply because it meant he would never get to kill the Lion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well actually Russ and the Lion were very good friends


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He was never going to kill Jonson. He just hated him. They were good friends before the fight, after I don't think hw fully let it slide.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He didn't hate him at all


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

After the fight, I don't believe that they were particulerly friendly at all.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

On the contrary i distinctly remember reading that they infact became very good friends and developed a large amount of respect for each other. In the older fluff they were arrving to break the seige of terra together. And some believed Russ might have left to go find his good friend the Lion


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Then why would their legions still so such hate towards eachother? To me, if they had made up their legions wouldn't show the animosity that they share.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'll try and find the exact fluff sources, or with any luck someone else will find them aswell. But im absoloutely certain they were.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Codex Space Wolves 5th Ed. Page 91

To paraphrase:

The Wolf and the Lion became great friends.

After their 'passing' the legions grew further apart.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Hm, odd. I don't see why the legions would develop that kind of rancor with they primarchs being so close.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

LOL. Thats a good question. "Uhhhh.... Dunno."
I'm sure there many reasons why a planet could suffer. If I was whoever took over the chapter after the Lion went into the Rock I would have blaimed it on the Night Lords, along with my fence watching.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Yeah they were close, in _A Thousand Sons_ when Lorgar jumps in between Russ and Magnus he says Russ and the Lion re swore their oaths of brotherhood at some stage after the brawl.

I think they put callibans destruction and the lions disappearance down to the callibanites siding with horus or rebelling in general, they conveniently left out the part about actual DA astartes rebelling.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Again to quote the Wolves codex. pg.21 
"Some say he disappeared in the Eye of Terror whilst searching for his old friend and rival, the Primarch Lion El'Jonson"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Then again rumours say he was hunting for a cure to save his father.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

One of the big reasons that the two chapters may have grown apart is because of their very nature after the Heresy. The wolves are fairly straightforward while the angels became those who skulk about in lies and the dark. Its not hard for the two groups to stop seeing eye to eye, and without their leaders to hold them together by frail bonds its no surprise that they drifted.

Plus, the stories of their fight and the rivalry not being friendly are likely things more outspoken and exaggerated than them being friends and all buddy buddy. Ten thousand years of exaggeration and drifting have that effect, and Bjorn isn't exactly setting the record straight by keeping quite.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Then again rumours say he was hunting for a cure to save his father.


Oh i'm aware that's not a definite reason for why he left, im just highlighting another reference that says they were infact friends


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If that one is true, we lost a primarch because the dark angels are pussies. Jk I realize they had no other choice.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Dorn- "ok, ok one moment Caliban is there the next it is gone...what in the name of a crack of a sparrows fart happened here"
silence
Dorn - "I'm waiting!"
Reclusiarch "Well my lord its like this..Zhadriel said he could light his own farts and Luthor dared him and well......um you sw what happened"
Dorn - "Whaaaattt"
Dark Angel "yes my lord and then the lion walked in and well you know a Librarians fart can be quite toxic must have knocked him clean out the room with the stench...he said he went to get some fresh air but by fuck it lingered"
Dorn - "I don't believe you"
Reclusiach..."here try it" swish parp 
Dorn "Oh god that stinks....TAKE COVER"
Dark Angel "Um how do we explain this to the Fists" Holds up Dorns hands all that is left of him
Reclusairch "Oh fuck....."


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

in all honesty and levity aside the Dark Angels are never going to let it be known that Dark Angels fired on Dark Angels and if Astelan is to be belieed the Primarch fired the first shot! so it would be a lot easier to blame the Heretics rather then stand up and say "We fucked up!" judging by the last two HH DA books the Lion was becoming more and more secretive himself so the question is was he - again to quote Astelan - waiting to see who won or was there another reason for his suddenly templar all secrets attitude...whatever the truth the Dark Angels are not about to go telling anyone anything and i don't think they are all that bothered about the Imperiums humans seeing as if they are backing and Imperial Guard unit up and a fallen appears "its right thats it we're off and screwwww you "


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## Larmour (Sep 14, 2010)

dude they dont hate each other at all, its more like a friendly rivalry because after lion and russ fought, russ had great respect for lion because that was the best fight russ ever had. Also why would russ care what happened to lion he's in the eye of terror right now so i think he has more pressing matters


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

It's possible the Inquisiton might have an inkling as to why the Dark Angels are so shut-in, but the 3ed dex stated that the Dark Angels actively hated the Inquisition and would never, ever work with them (this was actually a rule; Dark Angels couldn't take Inquisiton allies). So it's a safe bet that whatever scant info the Inquisition has is either vague at worst or intentionally misleading at best.

As for their brother chapters, I'm pretty sure the Dark Angels could give a lesser shit what the other marines might think of them, as long as they don't know their terrible little secret. Of the top of my head, there's less than 10 individuals who know everything about the Dark Angels, and all of them are Dark Angels or the Emperor. The other chapters see the Dark Angels as shifty and untrustworthy, and the Dark Angel's seem to be fine with this seperation. If all the chapters showed up at a party, the Dark Angels would be the guy in the back nursing a drink and looking bored as shit.

On the Space Wolves: Russ and Jonson were apparently very good friends. Their bromance started after the Lion became one of the only two living individuals who knocked Russ the fuck out. I'm sure there were traits in each of them that the other found distasteful, but both of them learned how to be human from the meanest, deadliest death worlds known to man and at their core they were both very primal and savage, and I think that's what they saw in each other.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*More Missing Primarchs*

The more I read about the remaining good Primarchs the more bizarre it seems its starting to look more than a little suspicious, they seem to split into 2 groups - those that are in a coma and those that found pressing needs to be somewhere else. 

It slowly dawns on oneself that the dissappeared into the eye excuse seems very heroic at first, but isnt that where all the other living primarchs are also, seems suspicious to me at least, what if these missing primarchs are sat happily quaffing ale with their old buddies the traitor primarchs laughing their ass off at the poor schmucks left behind.

Shock - "NO" you cry, our mighty heroes are blemishless and pure and perfect. The only ones that were ever "pure" are dead or comatose, the others were less whiter than white and decided to leave.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

maybe they saw the shit storm coming and decided to get out of town quick...who knows


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## ssamoel (Jul 27, 2009)

this is really funny! "Bob!"
anyway I think the DA are a little bit more serieus


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## Unforgiven (Apr 5, 2009)

Actually, I'm pretty sure Russ and who ever the current grandmaster of the Space Wolves know the secret of the Dark Angels, I can't remember where I read it though.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Space Wolves don't have grand masters, tmk, the only chapters that do are those descended from the DA and the GK chapter. And no, the Great Wolf doesn't know.


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## Unforgiven (Apr 5, 2009)

Well whomever is in control of the chapter then, I remember reading that the only people to know of the secret is the Dark Angels, the Emperor & The leader of the Space Wolves, I'm sure the Lion told Russ so I would think Azrael would let the current leader know?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How could the lion tell Russ that he was beaten into an coma? That would be one hell of a feat.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

yeah im fairly certain none of the Space Wolves know, how would they? No one knows but them and the fallen, and the Emperor i suppose


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> yeah im fairly certain none of the Space Wolves know, how would they? No one knows but them and the fallen, and the Emperor i suppose


I'm just curious, everywhere it says that the emperor knows this secret but how the hell did he find out? I mean, wasn't he already on the Golden Toilet when all this went down? Or is it just assumed that he's so awesome that he sensed it form Terra even after he was already a crippled corpse hanging on by a thread?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> I'm just curious, everywhere it says that the emperor knows this secret but how the hell did he find out?


I'm struggling to find any reference to anyone but the 'inner circle' being aware of any of the Dark Angel's secrets.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Emperor pretty much is an badass Santa; he knows everything.


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## Unforgiven (Apr 5, 2009)

That does make sense, Like I said I don't remember where I saw it


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## Molocia (Oct 16, 2010)

The Inner Circle is a large group. The entire 1st company is introduced to the truth including all company captains, librarians, chaplains, and the successor chapters are commanded by Inner Circle members as explained in the codex.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Only azreal knows about luther though.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

ithought the head chaplian knew as well


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I think the heads of the different offices know.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Not according to the 4th Editon Codex, and the 2nd Editon (Angels of Death) states that only the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels speaks to Luther.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Speaking to and knowing of are two different things.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well the direct quote from the codex is "As Supreme Grand Master, Azrael alone is privy to the greatest secret of all. At the very heart of the Rock is a cell, shielded by metre upon metre of adamantine armour and inscribed with the most potent runes of warding. Withing, kept alive for ten thousand years inside a stasis field, languishes the broken Man who was once Luther."

So yeah, only him. Something that irks me a little, i think at least the Masters of the Deathwing and Ravenwing as well as the Grand Master Librarian and Master Interrogator-Chaplain should also know


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well the direct quote from the codex is "As Supreme Grand Master, Azrael alone is privy to the greatest secret of all. At the very heart of the Rock is a cell, shielded by metre upon metre of adamantine armour and inscribed with the most potent runes of warding. Withing, kept alive for ten thousand years inside a stasis field, languishes the broken Man who was once Luther."
> 
> So yeah, only him. Something that irks me a little, i think at least the Masters of the Deathwing and Ravenwing as well as the Grand Master Librarian and Master Interrogator-Chaplain should also know


I don't know it speaks of exactly how paranoid and secretive the Dark Angels are, the Ultramarines adhere strictly to the Codex and the DA take the concept of need-to-know to the most extreme levels.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye i get that, but just at least one other individual perhaps, the Master Interrogator for instance, would make sense for him to know at least, to further interrogate him. Got to assume the Grand Master goes through some solo ritual when elected in which it is somehow revealed to him, or the midgets tell him somwhow, tugging at the hem of his robe until he follows them to Luther ^^


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, but they know of his treachery, correct? It is what I was saying, not that they knew he was still alive and kicking.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, but they know of his treachery, correct? It is what I was saying, not that they knew he was still alive and kicking.


Oh right, yeah I'm sure they know of Luther's treachery.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

well if thats the case and the Lion is fast asleep in the deepst bowles of the rock (maybe he is and maybe he isn't) why keep it a secret? but then again this is the DA we talking about paranoia and secrey and fear of others finding out about their chequered history seems totake precedence these days


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Lion IS in the rock, it's not an if or maybe, he is. And who knows why the Watchers are keeping it a secret from the Dark Angels, they are enigmatic as it comes.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

in that case could it be that they have plans for him just as the Cabal had plans for the Alpha Legion or maybe f we go along with the Conspiracists for the moment maybe he is too far over the line and they think its best to keep his slumber a secret lest he wake up and complete what he may or may not have started who really knows the motives of the Lion except the Lion himself


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Inner Circle is a very small group of people. It includes Azrael and the Successor Grand Masters, for certain. Someone with his hands on the 4E Codex can look to the page that outlines the Chapter's structure; it qualifies what Dark Angels are in the Inner Circle besides Azrael (I believe it's just Ezekiel and the Interrogator-Chaplains).

Members of the Deathwing are inducted to some of the secrets of the Chapter's history. Librarians, (non-Interrogator) Chaplains and Company Masters are privy to even more secrets. They do not, however, possess the knowledge of the actual Inner Circle.

As for keeping the secret? I don't see how this would be a big deal. The Imperium had undergone the Heresy, and was still undergoing the Scouring. They had a million worlds to keep track of--a great number of which were still burning, a wrecked infrastructure, ruined lines of communication, etc. How would anyone have even blinked if, at that point, the Dark Angels reported that _a single planet,_ just one of maybe thousands that suffered similar fates, had been destroyed?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye but it wasn't just that any planet had been destroyed. The planet was an astartes stronghold, a very effective and efficient one at that by all the reports. And it just gets completely destroyed with no explanation at all. I know alot of shit went down in the Heresy but i still think that would get flagged up. Theres also the fact that it occured after the Seige of Terra(do we even have an rough estimate of how long after?) But most pressingly, The Lion himself was lost, the surviving primarchs themselves would want to know how their brother was lost/killed in the wake of the heresy. 

I dunno, it's just a very very large and important event. Alot of very high up people would be wanting to know what happened, they must have had to make up one hell of an excuse to satisfy them


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Oh, I hear you. I guess I look at it this way.

1. Heresy ends. The Imperium is in chaos (no pun intended), shambles, etc.
2. The Dark Angels, led by the Lion, head to Caliban.
3. Luther's treachery is revealed; Caliban is destroyed.
4. A certain period of time passes, by which time the Dark Angels arrive at a consensus for their secret.
5. That period of time falls during the Scouring. During this same time, Vulkan's fate remains unknown, Dorn and Guilliman are (presumably) killed, and, more importantly, Corax, Leman Russ, and the Khan depart on more or less unverified journeys confirmed only by their Chapters.
6. The Dark Angels "reveal" to the Imperium what happened to the Imperium probably some time after knowledge of one or more Primarchs departing became common to other Astartes.

How plausible would all this be? Enough that the Dark Angels got away with it, I guess. 

Ultimately, I think it was a matter of there being enough insanity going on at the time that a planet (belonging to the Imperium for only fifty years) being destroyed and a Primarch disappearing simply weren't considered that wild an occurrence.

Just my two cents' worth, though!


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with Phoebus, the thing is who else knows about it anyway. Everyone on the planet died so they aren't much help. The only others are the fallen that remain, who are continually hounded by the loyalists and who are portrayed by the legion as traitors anyway, so who would believe them? The truth could be slightly modified, chaos taint of the non astartes population.


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