# Cult of Horus in 40k?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone. 

I've decided on the Black Legion for my army, but the one thing that never sits well with me is that quote from Abaddon, _'Horus was weak, Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let is slip away'_. I always feel like saying 'Yeah and what have you done, Failbaddon?', except I don't think he would appreciate that. But then again according to his current rules, he wouldn't be able to hurt me 1/6 of the time lol.

Anyway, what I was wondering is : Could there be a Chaos Warband in 40k that still venerates the true Warmaster Horus? Maybe even centered around the idea that he will one day return? The other idea I had was (in friendly games only) use Abaddon to represent a clone of Horus that survived and the warband almost worships as the real thing. 

My friends all say that I should just create my own warband, due to my constant shifting of allegiences from Legion to Legion, this is the only real way I can think of doing it. So what do you all think?

Also what heck is the paint scheme of the Sons of Horus? To me it looks like skull white mixed with maybe dark angels green and then dark green trim. Would that be about right? But what is it described as officially? 

Finally what are your opinions of Horus?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Sure, you could do such a Warband. Anything's possible.

I'm not sure about them hoping he'd return, though. The more veterans of the Siege of Terra the band had, the less likely they'd be optimistic about such a thing. On the other hand, if they rejected Abaddon, they may have done so because of his attempts to destroy all the Horus clones... and thus may feel he was just trying to stop the inevitable.

Using Abaddon as a "counts as" 'Horus' would only end up cheating you, IMHO. I don't think his stats would do the Warmaster justice.

What do I think of Horus? A great man, far better than his fate, betrayed and manipulated by those he called brothers into securing for himself the highest level of ignominy among the race of Man.


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

If you did do it then either they'd not be black legion (forsaking being the son's of horus was why they became so named) or they'd be a secret cabal within the legion. There was a story regarding the cloning of the warmaster in Realm of Chaos:slaves to darkness...I think they stole away with the primarch's body and then abadon came after them. The body was apparantly destroyed but if ou created a post heresy army of this nature a bier carryig the warmasters body could mke a very cool centrepiece to the army.

~O


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, secretly possessing the one remaining clone body of Horus would be cool.

"Now how do we bring it to life?"


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

methinks zombie horus would be sweet ; )

and also a good chaos vs chaos apocalypse scenario

~O


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I myself always felt that Abaddon himself was hit harder than anyone else by Horu's death, and simply covered it up by attempting to distance himself from his memory. Reading his old ''Heros and Villian'' article, he was hit very hard by the death of Horus. Maybe Abaddon felt guilt for not being able to be there with him? That's just my interpretation of events anyway.

Anyway I have a Black Legion warband that reveres Horus and they are still loyal to Abaddon. Abaddon is the leader of the Black Legion, but warbands of all sorts of beliefs and sizes comprise the Black Legion. The Black Legion is not so much as a Pre-Heresy Legion as it is a coalition of forces united under Abaddon.



D-A-C said:


> I always feel like saying 'Yeah and what have you done, Failbaddon?', ?


How exactly has he failed?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> How exactly has he failed?


I second that question.

For the Sons of Horus colour scheme, check out the _Index Astartes_ or _Collected Visions_. It's a very pale green trimmed in black.

EDIT: Done the liberty of finding you an illustration:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:48&biw=1366&bih=588


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

Off home from work now - I'll see if I can pull out slaves to darkness and type out that excerpt

~O


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

There are three reasons he is Failbaddon to me:

1. He has failed to take Cadia; I know that several of the Black Crusades were never intended to do this, but until he can break free of the Cadian Gate then he will have done too little in the grand scheme of things. Uniting the forces of Chaos as he has done is important and significant, but not enough to justify the title of Warmaster Imo. If a single Primarch returned, I still believe he would be forced into a subordinate role.

2. There has never been enough fluff on him and his doings, just bits and pieces here and there, such as in Soul Hunter. So he, and the Black Legion need a novel, even if it's about 'The Clone War' lol.

3. For me it's a bit of a joke, due to his current codex iteration, as he can charge into combat and actually do nothing, all for the price of 275pts, and no army wide bonuses. Also I know it's only a 1/6 chance, but it happens alot when I try using him lol.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I suppose it all depends on your definition, but Abaddon failed in at least one of his Black Crusades.

The first is described as a bid to defeat the Imperium, something that he never accomplished. In fact, that defeat directly led to the build-up on Cadia, which in turn severely restricted Chaos Legion access to the galaxy proper.

The second, even if it was limited to taking Cadia, also failed. Follow-on attacks in other systems were also stopped, and Abaddon was driven back to the Eye of Terror. Would that not qualify as a defeat?

In fact, I think the 7th and the 13th Black Crusades were the only ones where Abaddon met his objectives, is that not correct?

Sure, Abaddon has not been conclusively defeated. He remains the principal warlord of the Chaos Space Marines. He is halfway to conquering Cadia*. Ultimately, though, the majority of his wars against the Imperium have led to defeat on the field of battle and being forced back.

Let me put it this way. Rommel was a brilliant general. He dealt with deficits in fuel, manpower, armor, weaponry, etc., and yet his record speaks for itself. Following El Alamein, though, he was forced to retreat in defeat. Say he never left Africa, and instead continued the campaign with his Afrika Korps. Alamein would still remain a failure by his name. If he never managed to drive the British out, and thus never gained the resources he needed to maintain control over North Africa, he would have failed, no matter his other achievements.

Abaddon is little different. Devious, perhaps even brilliant, certainly powerful in terms of both prowess and personality... and yet, after ten thousand years, defined by his failures. The opinions shared by Chaos Space Marines in recent novels (e.g., "Soul Hunter") are most telling, I think.

* That having been said, the 7th Black Crusade proved that taking Cadia the planet was not necessary; taking its orbital defenses, spaceports, etc, and seizing control of the stable warp routes that radiate from there is what's important. Chaos was able to ignore Cadia at least once, after all.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> There are three reasons he is Failbaddon to me:
> 
> 1. He has failed to take Cadia; I know that several of the Black Crusades were never intended to do this, but until he can break free of the Cadian Gate then he will have done too little in the grand scheme of things.lol.


Except he _has_ broken free of the Cadian Gate. Look at the back of the 3.5 Codex, it has a map detaling Abaddon's Crusades, most of them are past Cadia.



D-A-C said:


> If a single Primarch returned, I still believe he would be forced into a subordinate role.


You do realize that most of the Chaos Primarchs are alive fight? Angron should have reformed by now, Mortarion is still present on his plague world, Magnus is still alive and well, Peraturbo is still alive, Fulgrim is busy on some pleasure world in the Eye. Lorgar has been praying for the past ten thousand years according to Dark Creed.

Magnus may be more concerned with his stuides, Fugrim may be possesed by a daemon and drugged out of his mind and Lorgar may be locke dup in a temple somehwere, but Mortarion, Angron and Peratubro are still alive.

Angron has even led attacks.




D-A-C said:


> 3. For me it's a bit of a joke, due to his current codex iteration, as he can charge into combat and actually do nothing, all for the price of 275pts, and no army wide bonuses. Also I know it's only a 1/6 chance, but it happens alot when I try using him lol.


To be honest I've killed Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, Carnifexes, Calgar, Mephiston and Grimmnar multiple times with him. But his rules incarnation really has nothing to do with his fluff at all.



Phoebus said:


> The first is described as a bid to defeat the Imperium, something that he never accomplished. In fact, that defeat directly led to the build-up on Cadia, which in turn severely restricted Chaos Legion access to the galaxy proper.


Except it was only barely turned back and even then Chaos got some victories. Dorn's death for example plus the recovery of Drach'nyen.



Phoebus said:


> The second, even if it was limited to taking Cadia, also failed. Follow-on attacks in other systems were also stopped, and Abaddon was driven back to the Eye of Terror. Would that not qualify as a defeat?


I don't think we have any kind of detailed information on Abaddon Second Black Crusade.



Phoebus said:


> In fact, I think the 7th and the 13th Black Crusades were the only ones where Abaddon met his objectives, is that not correct?


Not quite. First of all we don't know his objectives for each crusade. What are his plans for each assualt? What battles where fought? What strategy did his pursue? What items was he seeking? The Gothic War proves that Black Crusades don't have to be an attack on Cadia.

(And the 12th Black Crusade, the Gothic War, was to grab the Blackstones, which Abaddon was able to get two, which appearantly was enough for the 13th)

We don't have any information on what Abaddon was planning in the 7th (the 7th Black Crusade, the Ghost War, was mentioned rathar briefly in Liber Chaotica if I recall) and the 13th is still ongoing.

For the rest of the Crusades, we really don't know at all. I would hardlyeeAbaddon is a failure when what little detailed information we have on his Black Crusades is from the Imperial point of view. The 12th and the 13th are the only ones where we have any detailed informatrion. The 12th was a draw (Abaddon's target was not the worlds of the Gothic Sector but the Blackstones) and the 13th is ongoing.



Phoebus said:


> Ultimately, though, the majority of his wars against the Imperium have led to defeat on the field of battle and being forced back.


Given the sheer lack of information on his Crusades we don't know that.



Phoebus said:


> Abaddon is little different. Devious, perhaps even brilliant, certainly powerful in terms of both prowess and personality... and yet, after ten thousand years, defined by his failures. The opinions shared by Chaos Space Marines in recent novels (e.g., "Soul Hunter") are most telling, I think.


Except that's the opinion of a single Marine in a warband that have differing opinions on Abaddon.

In fact this is largely contridicted by the Chaos Codex which says that champions and warbands of all legions and gods follow Abaddon _because_ of his sucesses. In fact it states that the Black Legion is actually _growing_ with each assault he leads.

If anything according to the Chaos Codex, Abaddon is defined by his sucesses.



Phoebus said:


> * That having been said, the 7th Black Crusade proved that taking Cadia the planet was not necessary; taking its orbital defenses, spaceports, etc, and seizing control of the stable warp routes that radiate from there is what's important. Chaos was able to ignore Cadia at least once, after all.


I would once again point out that we have no idea of what Abaddon's plans or objectives where at all for the 7th. If I recall correctly we saw the 7th Black Crusade from the Imperial point in view in one of the Liber Chaotica books.

Second, Cadia is just one of Abaddon's many targets. In the 13th Black Crusade Chaos was attacking the entire _sector_.


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

Realm of Chaos:The Lost and the Damned said:


> _The...numericall inferior Sons faught a number of wars against the other Traitor Legions, which culminated in the destruction of [the] Son's fortress. The Warmaster's body was removed and cloned, much to the disgust of the remaining Sons. Denied thier Warmaster, the Sons rejected his name, thier chapter title and painted thier armour predominantly black. In a lightning raid the new 'Black Legion' destroyed the Warmaster's body and fled further into exile._


hmmmm...suggests it was either a renegade faction within the sons or the other traitor legions still venerating the Warmaster. That and cloned versions of th Warmaster could be out there leading thier own warbands...

~O


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Even from a purely fluff logic point of view, do you really think the chaos gods would still be backing Abaddon after 10 000 years if they thought that he isn't getting the job done and that there's someone better suited to their needs? I mean, Angra Mainyu was a daemon prince and got turned into chaos spawn for catching on stupid shit during just the 13th crusade, so if Abaddon is as much of a failure as some of you guys think, he would have been a giant, toothy blob a long time ago. Just my opinion anyway.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gree said:


> Except it was only barely turned back and even then Chaos got some victories. Dorn's death for example plus the recovery of Drach'nyen.


A loss is a loss. Erwin Rommel scored many brilliant victories against the British, but at the end of the day he was turned back. Abaddon's intent was not to simply kill Dorn, nor to find Drach'nyen 



> I don't think we have any kind of detailed information on Abaddon Second Black Crusade.


We do. It focused on Cadia itself. Once more, he was forced back without achieving his objectives.



> Not quite. First of all we don't know his objectives for each crusade.


Hence why I focused on those that we did [know something about]. 



> (And the 12th Black Crusade, the Gothic War, was to grab the Blackstones, which Abaddon was able to get two, which appearantly was enough for the 13th)


They were apparently enough to _start_ the 13th, but not to win it. The conduct of the 12th does not indicate that Abaddon was content to simply get away with two.



> I would hardlyeeAbaddon is a failure when what little detailed information we have on his Black Crusades is from the Imperial point of view.


I qualified that I don't think he 's a failure, but I reject the idea that he has not experienced failure. He has failed, more than once. He may yet win, but that's a different matter altogether.

Furthermore, at least some of the information comes from sources friendly to Chaos. The revised (3E) Codex, for instance spells out that Abaddon was repulsed back to the First Black Crusade. There's no point in trying to spin the situation; he lost. That he got something out of it is a consolation prize--not Terra.



> Except that's the opinion of a single Marine in a warband that have differing opinions on Abaddon.


It's hardly unique. I never claimed it was universal.

Either way, I hope we're not about to pretend that the opposite is true. Abaddon's power waxes and wanes. That he is unable to hold on to control of even a plurality of the Chaos Legions at any one time is a given. Currently, his star is waxing, and the latest Codex is right to focus on that. The previous Codex, set before the 13th Black Crusade, did not offer as much emphasis. The span of time that passes between each Black Crusade further reinforces this phenomenon.

Cheers,
P.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> A loss is a loss. Erwin Rommel scored many brilliant victories against the British, but at the end of the day he was turned back. Abaddon's intent was not to simply kill Dorn, nor to find Drach'nyen


How do you know that? From what I understand almost all the information we have on the First Crusade is from the Imperial point of view. Who can say he never intended to do that?



Phoebus said:


> We do. It focused on Cadia itself. Once more, he was forced back without achieving his objectives.


Again, where is this stated? Where are his objectives mentioned?



Phoebus said:


> They were apparently enough to _start_ the 13th, but not to win it.


You can't really say that when the 13th is still ongoing.



Phoebus said:


> The conduct of the 12th does not indicate that Abaddon was content to simply get away with two.


Which is why I compared that Crusade to a draw.



Phoebus said:


> I qualified that I don't think he 's a failure, but I reject the idea that he has not experienced failure. He has failed, more than once. He may yet win, but that's a different matter altogether.


I agree he's failed at points. Unfourtunately until we can find out exactly what he has failed at (Due to an almost complete lack of information on anything other than the 12th or 13th) we can't say much.



Phoebus said:


> Furthermore, at least some of the information comes from sources friendly to Chaos. The revised (3E) Codex, for instance spells out that Abaddon was repulsed back to the First Black Crusade. There's no point in trying to spin the situation; he lost. That he got something out of it is a consolation prize--not Terra.


And you think Cadia was his only objective? I'm not denying that he was repulsed. But I hardly think that's the whole story.



Phoebus said:


> The span of time that passes between each Black Crusade further reinforces this phenomenon.


Not quite. Time flows differently in the Eye. From Abaddon's point of view he might be launching a Crusade every decade or so.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I maintain Dorn did not die that stupid way.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> 1. He has failed to take Cadia; I know that several of the Black Crusades were never intended to do this, but until he can break free of the Cadian Gate then he will have done too little in the grand scheme of things.


The 13th Black Crusade essentially conquered Cadia for the chaos forces, although Imperial forces still retain a significant presence in orbit and across the sector. The Imperials are literally on their last ditch effort to defend the Cadian Gate and prevent the chaos forces from establishing a permanent foothold in Imperial territory. If the Cadian Gate is lost (which is still more than plausable as a result of the 13th Black Crusade) then there is no major bastion this side of Terra to bottleneck and blockade the chaos forces behind. The ramifications would be unbelievably devastating.



D-A-C said:


> Uniting the forces of Chaos as he has done is important and significant, but not enough to justify the title of Warmaster Imo. If a single Primarch returned, I still believe he would be forced into a subordinate role.


The Daemon Primarchs are present in the Eye of Terror, and each one would be incapable of forming some form of unity between the mortal chaos forces as Abaddon has done.

Abaddon has the backing of the Four, he bears the mark of chaos ascendent, and one of the most powerful weapon in 40k lore. The gods have a plan for him...

The 'return' of the Daemon Primarchs (not really sure what you mean, they have never left) would not really change anything significantly in regards to the political situation in the Eye.



D-A-C said:


> 2. There has never been enough fluff on him and his doings, just bits and pieces here and there, such as in Soul Hunter. So he, and the Black Legion need a novel, even if it's about 'The Clone War' lol.


ADB has expressed interest in writing a duology on the rise of Abaddon and the Black Legion. But aside from that there isn't exactly little fluff on him, there is still a significant amount.



Phoebus said:


> Abaddon's intent was not to simply kill Dorn, nor to find Drach'nyen


Simply put, how do you know? Abaddon says as much to Talos in _Soul Hunter_. On the surface of things his black crusades seem like their are chasing obvious objectives, but just how do we know what his true intentions are?

I find it entirely plausable that the first black crusade was initiated merely because Abaddon sought Drach'nyen for example, which in turn brought him untold power and influence.



Phoebus said:


> That having been said, the 7th Black Crusade proved that taking Cadia the planet was not necessary; taking its orbital defenses, spaceports, etc, and seizing control of the stable warp routes that radiate from there is what's important. Chaos was able to ignore Cadia at least once, after all.


Indeed. But ultimately no major sustained invasion of Imperial space can happen with Cadia in Imperial hands.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I maintain Dorn did not die that stupid way.


How is it stupid? :shok:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How is it stupid? :shok:


Been over this before heh but he died taking the bridge of a chaos ship, pretty pathetic.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Been over this before heh but he died taking the bridge of a chaos ship, pretty pathetic.


Dorn's death aboard the _Sword of Sacrilege_ bought the Imperial forces time to turn back the First Black Crusade, maybe even saving the Imperium decades of war again on the scale of the Heresy and Scouring which may have even sent the emergent Imperium down the road of destruction - that's an heroic enough ending for me. After all it's not like he tripped and drowned in a puddle...! 

Perhaps it was even suicidal, considering his mindframe had been shattered ever since the Emperor's Ascension and the Iron Cage Incident he saw this as a fitting end for his failure.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Dorn's death aboard the _Sword of Sacrilege_ bought the Imperial forces time to turn back the First Black Crusade, maybe even saving the Imperium decades of war again on the scale of the Heresy and Scouring which may have even sent the emergent Imperium down the road of destruction - that's an heroic enough ending for me. After all it's not like he tripped and drowned in a puddle...!
> 
> Perhaps it was even suicidal, considering his mindframe had been shattered ever since the Emperor's Ascension and the Iron Cage Incident he saw this as a fitting end for his failure.


But still, Dorn didn't even die by the hand of anyone special. At least Guilliman had the dignity to get Daemon Fulgrim to slit his throat. And lets not forget how Angron easily butchered regular marines at Isstvan. I'm not saying Dorn is Angron but, then again, Dorn seemed to rank himself quite high. As such, Dorn getting killed on a ship raid is pretty weak. I'm not saying that his actions and death didn't play a significant part in the events at the time, I'm saying that him getting mauled by a group of grunts is a pretty lame way to go. If it were someone like Guilliman, he probably would have somehow been able to get the job done and still have been back home for tea and scones in the afternoon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> But still, Dorn didn't even die by the hand of anyone special. At least Guilliman had the dignity to get Daemon Fulgrim to slit his throat. And lets not forget how Angron easily butchered regular marines at Isstvan. I'm not saying Dorn is Angron but, then again, Dorn seemed to rank himself quite high. As such, Dorn getting killed on a ship raid is pretty weak.


No where does it state what horrors Dorn fell to. It states he fell storming the bridge.

Now, he could have fallen to a mighty Daemon Lord, unending hordes of Daemons, or one of the mightiest Chaos champions of the day, perhaps even Abaddon himself? We don't know. As for Guilliman's death, okay it may have been 'glorious' in the sense he died to one of his fallen brothers, but his death brought the Imperium no respite like Dorn's did.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No where does it state what horrors Dorn fell to. It states he fell storming the bridge.
> 
> Now, he could have fallen to a mighty Daemon Lord, unending hordes of Daemons, or one of the mightiest Chaos champions of the day, perhaps even Abaddon himself? We don't know. As for Guilliman's death, okay it may have been 'glorious' in the sense he died to one of his fallen brothers, but his death brought the Imperium no respite like Dorn's did.


Yeah but it's the fact nothing is said about who defeated him, that it's still a poor ending in my book, ignoring the fact it may of stopped the 1st Black Crusade in it's tracks, for it to do something like that it should of been a lot more important and more of a detailed ending to a pretty important Primarch. Tbh nothing short of being defeated or simultaneously defeating a Daemon Primarch would be good enough for me.

P.S How do I donate so I can become a supporter?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah but it's the fact nothing it said about who defeated that it's still a poor ending in my book, ignoring the fact it may of stopped the 1st Black Crusade in it's tracks, for it to do something like that it should of been a lot more important and more of a detailed ending to a pretty important Primarch. Tbh nothing short of being defeated or simultaneously defeating a Daemon Primarch would be good enough for me.


We'll have to agree to disagree then.



Words_of_Truth said:


> P.S How do I donate so I can become a supporter?


http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3575


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree then.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3575


Thanks  My grammar was terrible in that post sorry lol.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No where does it state what horrors Dorn fell to. It states he fell storming the bridge.
> 
> Now, he could have fallen to a mighty Daemon Lord, unending hordes of Daemons, or one of the mightiest Chaos champions of the day, perhaps even Abaddon himself? We don't know. As for Guilliman's death, okay it may have been 'glorious' in the sense he died to one of his fallen brothers, but his death brought the Imperium no respite like Dorn's did.


I just think that if someone particularly badass had taken Dorn out they would have mentioned it by now.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Personally I take the view that there is no such thing as a glorious death. Space wolves venerate the wolf that saved fenris from Magnus, (Harrkon? all wolf names sound the same to me) he still died and the crimson king survived, 300+ GKs died to banish angron, but hes still out there.

Its what people do in life that define them not the nature of their death

Chaos has time, why rush to topple the imperium? If anything they gain more by streaching its demise, khorne gets more skulls, Tzeentch gets more plots, nurgle gets more suffering and opportunities for plague, and slaanesh gets more desires


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Personally I take the view that there is no such thing as a glorious death. Space wolves venerate the wolf that saved fenris from Magnus, (Harrkon? all wolf names sound the same to me) he still died and the crimson king survived, 300+ GKs died to banish angron, but hes still out there.
> 
> Its what people do in life that define them not the nature of their death
> 
> Chaos has time, why rush to topple the imperium? If anything they gain more by streaching its demise, khorne gets more skulls, Tzeentch gets more plots, nurgle gets more suffering and opportunities for plague, and slaanesh gets more desires


Personally I couldn't agree more with the sentiments of this post.

This extract from the story of the Battle of Terra summarises this idea nicely IMO:

 _'The psychic shock wave of the Warmaster's passing rippled outward through the warp. On Earth, daemons screamed and vanished, and the rebel Primarchs stood dumbfounded. It was their leader, not their enemy's, who was dead and they knew it. With the one who had raised the banner of rebellion dead, there was nothing to hold the rebels together. They were demoralised and dismayed. When word of the oncoming Imperial fleet reached them they knew that they must flee._

_Within the perimeter of Lions Gate Spaceport, Jaghatai Khan and the handful of unwounded White Scars watched in amazement as the horde halted in confusion then retreated. Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus the Red and Mortarion led their men to their ships and departed, leaving the deluded, traitorous followers of Chaos to their fate. As he stepped aboard his ship, Angron turned and shook his fist at the glittering dome of the Imperial palace that had proved just out of his taloned reach._

_Then he shrugged; he and his fellow rebels had all eternity to seek revenge. The Battle for Earth was effectively over. The Horus Heresy was ended. Rogal Dorn found the Emperor's broken body in the ruins of the Warmaster's throne room. Through mangled lips, the Emperor whispered instructions for the creation of his golden throne. Dorn smiled, for while the Emperor still lived there was still hope.'_


Angron's actions are for me the most memorable and telling, he simply shrugs. He has forever to wait for the Imperium to be destroyed, heck, given the way time flows in the immaterium and the nature of it, who's to say he hasn't witnessed it several times over, or repeated events on Terra again and again, each with a different outcome. 


Two things I'd like to clear up though. The whole Failaddon thing was more of a humourous remark for my part, than a real opinion. I actually like Abaddon (sometimes) but for me he is never going to be able to step out from the shadow left by Horus and IMO nobody can ever be as awesome as Horus. Especially considering how amazingly well written he is in the Horus Heresy series, I'd have betrayed the Emperor in an instant for the sake of Horus. 

The other thing that I'd like to clear up is what I meant by a Primarch returning. I realize that all the Daemon Primarch's are still there, but they aren't active. What I meant was, if even one of them bothered to actively enagage in the destruction of the Imperium, Abaddon would have a tough time remaining as powerful as he has become. Imagine a scene where a Daemon Primarch, say Perturabo or Lorgar show up, you think they are really going to look to Abaddon as Warmaster? This would also cause an awful lot of warbands to do the same IMO; if I had a choice between Abaddon and a Daemon Primarch, I'd follow the Primarch 9 times out of 10.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

That's one of the things I like about Angron, at least he's actually tried.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Wait I thought magnus was on prospero and then in the eye of terror the entire herasy.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

locustgate said:


> Wait I thought magnus was on prospero and then in the eye of terror the entire herasy.


Magnus got owned by Leman Russ but by the time the assault on the Emperor's Palace occurred he'd resumed command of the surviving Thousand Sons and was helping to summon daemons on Terra afaik.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> What I meant was, if even one of them bothered to actively enagage in the destruction of the Imperium, Abaddon would have a tough time remaining as powerful as he has become. Imagine a scene where a Daemon Primarch, say Perturabo or Lorgar show up, you think they are really going to look to Abaddon as Warmaster? This would also cause an awful lot of warbands to do the same IMO; if I had a choice between Abaddon and a Daemon Primarch, I'd follow the Primarch 9 times out of 10.


Again, Angron has launched to massive assaults on the Imperium. Both times it was pretty much only Khornate followers to went with him.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Gree said:


> Again, Angron has launched to massive assaults on the Imperium. Both times it was pretty much only Khornate followers to went with him.


So what?

Not to be confrontational, but Angron launching an assault on Armageddon has nothing to do with the point I was making. Also Lexicanum states that:

'During the middle of the 38th millennium, Angron and fifty thousand Khorne Berzerkers slaughtered their way through Imperial space for over two centuries. This incident became known as the *Dominion of Fire*. The wars and rebellions the forces of Khorne sparked ravaged over seventy sectors. In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost. Ninety percent of the area have since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.'

Which sounds pretty badass by itself.

But what I was getting at was, imagine a meeting aboard Vengeful Spirit, you really think a Daemon Primarch is going to back down to Abaddon? Cuz I sure as hell don't. Plus who is to say Angron prepared his attack on any such scale as a Black Crusade or what his goals were, a point you make about Abaddon.

Like I said, an active Daemon Primarch would be more of a menace IMO.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The sons themselves were much deminished after the battle of prospero and according to collected visions they were never involved in the main assaults but they summoned numerous warp rifts and blasted the walls with sorcerous fire.

The most active primarchs since the heresy have been angron and magnus but in 10,000 years they only really tried a few times. Peturbo never retreated to the eye for a few years after terra, and you have the iron cage incident which pretty much decimated the last of the imperial fists and pretty much destroyed Dorn. 

Many primarchs are not venerated as much as they once were by csms. Horus is hated by the majority of the BL, Lorgar hasn't been seen since the heresy, mortarions dissappeared from active fluff. Peturbo's probably built a few walls

The battle of fenris had quite a lot of non tzeentch followers, especially on Garn and other worlds that were attacked.

When a deamon primarch attacks the imperium put so much effort into stopping them, similar scale to stopping a hive fleet. 300 GKs are not permanntly stationed on cadia. Cadia may be a heavily defended planet but really only by IG, not massive chapters of marines. Cadia's main aim was to bottleneck and reduce the number of traitors that can be bought to bear, buying time for reinforcements to arrive

but also the black legion is by a mile the largest warband in the eye, if there is any sense of brotherhood left in the legion abbadons the closest they have to a primarch, or father figure. 

Personally i think that Abbadon will eventually brush past cadia only to run into a hive fleet, forcing him to withdraw, once again saving terra. 

The emperor will be loved for making it happen


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Barnster said:


> ...and you have the iron cage incident which pretty much decimated the last of the imperial fists and pretty much destroyed Dorn.


Dorn knew full well what he was doing during the Iron Cage incident, he used it as a type of penitence, what came out of it were a battle hardened veteran force and Dorn actually felt better for it.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

He swore he would dig peturbo out of his hole, in anger. He couldn't be seen to back down from this. his legion were veterans of terra and mars anyway. Post heresy the noble man that was dorn was replaced by the living embodiment of vengence. 

Peturbo made his legion look like amatures, theres no way dorn would have wanted that


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> So what?


If only Khornate followers follow him then none of the other Legions will.



D-A-C said:


> 'During the middle of the 38th millennium, Angron and fifty thousand Khorne Berzerkers slaughtered their way through Imperial space for over two centuries. This incident became known as the *Dominion of Fire*. The wars and rebellions the forces of Khorne sparked ravaged over seventy sectors. In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost. Ninety percent of the area have since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.'
> 
> Which sounds pretty badass by itself.


Guess what? Only Khornate followers came to him. A bunch of other warbands came as well, but they never followed Angron and where pretty much ravenging the place. It took four Chapters, Two Titan Legions and thirty regiments to take back that, but go crack open Codex Eye of Terror and see what Abaddon faced.

It's alot more than that force.

And note, I was also talking about the Dominion of Fire in my last past. Hence the word ''assaults''.



D-A-C said:


> Plus who is to say Angron prepared his attack on any such scale as a Black Crusade or what his goals were, a point you make about Abaddon.


True, but this is _Angron_ we are talking about. He's not exactly a long-term planner here.



Barnster said:


> When a deamon primarch attacks the imperium put so much effort into stopping them, similar scale to stopping a hive fleet. 300 GKs are not permanntly stationed on cadia. Cadia may be a heavily defended planet but really only by IG, not massive chapters of marines. Cadia's main aim was to bottleneck and reduce the number of traitors that can be bought to bear, buying time for reinforcements to arrive


 I recall reading in Codex: Chaos, and Index Astartes: Emperor's Shield, about the Astartes Praeses, _20_ Astartes chapters dedicated to just guarding the Eye of Terror.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

You could make it interesting with the Horusians of the Thorian faction (Inquisition). Wouldn't seem too far fetched for a extremely radical radical to venerate Horus.


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