# If you were the Emperor, who would you pick to be Warmaster?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight of course  

Definitely not Horus that's for sure. 

Obviously some primarchs would be bad choices: Angron, Curze, and Mortarion are "broken goods"

Sanguinius seems like an obvious choice...but he and his legion suffer from "secret flaws" with the potential to be exploited by Chaos 

Would you pick someone with unshakable loyalty such as Dorn or Guilliman? Do you think other less conventional choices would work?


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## xxJoshxx (Jul 21, 2009)

I would probably have to go with Dorn on this. Sure he is prone to tantrums when someone disagrees with him but he can keep himself professional and he is unshakable in his loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm Robute Guilliman maybe. Would be interesting to see how things would have gone with Lorgar in charge as well. He he.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

This is a tough one... depends on if the chaos gods have a part to play.

If not obviously horus was the right choice....

Other wise I would have to say:

1) Magnus has the forward planning and learning ability to over come most foes

2) Russ hes the ultimately loyal general plus he would have the great crusade finished faster.

3) Sanguinus hes the best all rounded of all the primarchs and his brothers seem to respect him therefore would be a better combined leader.

Whilst Dorn and Guilliman are good choices I think the flaws in their personal character (anger and pride/snobbery respectively) would hamper their ability to lead effectively.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

No single one, the best course of action in my opinion would be to share the power and therefore minimise risk and potential to be corrupted as well as nullify their capacity to effectively rebel.
Id split it between Dorn,Horus and Sanguinus, and maybe even with Guilliman.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Guilliman. 

Aside from his military prowess and suitability as a big picture campaign planner rather than mere battle leader he activly welcomes and takes part in administration. The friction between the civilian council and the military was one of the factors that led to the Heresy. Guilliman would be able to maintain much better relations with them, indeed he'd likely welcome them. His being the largest legion with its own pocket empire and independent supply base, he'd be well equipped to put down any legions who dissented. 

He wouldn't just conquer an empire for humanity but build one.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The biggest problem I have with putting Guilliman, Dornor the Lion in charge is that they aren't generally well liked by their brothers. The Warmaster is a position with lots of power in theory but it requires the consent of other individuals. Horus, who was both generally well liked and possibly the most charismatic of the Primarchs, had some problems getting some brothers on board and I can only imagine the struggle Guilliman, the Lion or (god forbid) Dorn would've had. 

Specifically Horus is on good relations (relatively speaking) with the Primarchs most likely to be problematic. Mortarion, Angron and Night Haunter all count him as one of their few 'friends' and his relationship with Alpharius, Perturabo and Lorgar is a lot stronger than their relationships with others. I could see several of these Primarchs making a big issue out of Guilliman (Alpharius/Lorgar) or Dorn (Perturabo/Night Haunter) being appointed Warmaster and I don't think they have the ability to sooth those relations over (over even the interest in doing so).

From this perspective Sanguinious is obviously the second-best candidate (since Horus is out). His Legion's flaw could potentially become a big problem though. We saw them come very close to falling on Signus and I think if the gods had actually cared about that they would've be able to complete his fall.

Russ is right out, since he is generally not well liked or respected (Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion can at least claim that) and is far to headstrong to be able to manage relations with his brothers.

Another issue for Guilliman is that his loyalty is iffy. The fact of the matter is that Guilliman abandons the Imperium in its time of greatest need, that's not something I want to see in a potential number 2.

This leads me to think that an out-side-the-box candidate might be the best. Specifically I'll suggest Corax. Corax isn't necessarily well-liked or charismatic but he also isn't disliked and is fairly diplomatic. He doesn't have the raw charisma to win others to his cause (which is actually kind of a plus as it would slow a Heresy down) but he does have a good understanding of the psychology of his brothers and the patience to put it to good use. He and his Legion show no obvious flaw to be exploited by Chaos either.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

A new Warmaster would have to be Guillaumin, hands down, as the best overall strategic thinker and someone who lives the greater role the Primarchs and Astares should have than just fighting. 

MEQinc, questioning Guillaumin's loyalty is somewhat spurrious given the circumstances... the Astronomican goes out, no one can get in touch with the Emperor, he knows at least two chapters (WB and WEs) are in open rebellion and actively trying to destroy him, and no other seeming loyalist chapter is doing anything more. Given the circumstances, he was doing exactly what his father would want him to do, carry on the Imperium in any way he could.

Regarding the charisma factor among the Primarchs, its obvious from all the HH books describing the pre-Heresy Primarchs relationships that Horus's charisma didn't slake the competitive nature of his brothers, regardless of their personal relationships with him. Alpharius/Omegon still chart their own course despite their history with Horus; Perturabo/Angron/Curze are all broken and accelerate toward their own dooms despite Horus becoming Warmaster; Sanguinius, Russ, Kahn, Corax, Manus, and Vulkan seem to be in full kicking-ass-taking-names mode before the Heresy; Fulgrim, Dorn, the Lion, and Perturabo are all otherwise primadonnas who think it should be them no matter who's selected; Magnus and Lorgar will both do their same thing - Magnus trying to stop the Warmaster being corrupted and Lorgar trying to corrupt him... they're both on their same headtrip for enlightenment.

I'm not a big Ultramarines fan, but Guillaumin is one of the few Primarchs who seems to embody the 'superhuman' mantle given to him without coming across as a whiney little pussy or a five-year-old having a tantrum at times. Papa Smurf is also smart enough strategically to actually see the patterns Lorgar was creating to undermine the Imperium if he was placed at the center of command. The Heresy would still have happened, but it would have been a 2/3 loyalist 1/3 heretics war.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> MEQinc, questioning Guillaumin's loyalty is somewhat spurrious given the circumstances... the Astronomican goes out, no one can get in touch with the Emperor, he knows at least two chapters (WB and WEs) are in open rebellion and actively trying to destroy him, and no other seeming loyalist chapter is doing anything more. Given the circumstances, he was doing exactly what his father would want him to do, carry on the Imperium in any way he could.


And yet, placed in the same (or far worse) situation not a single one of his brothers makes that decision. Guilliman *alone* abandons the Imperium in favour of his own empire (not even the Traitors do this). Guilliman sits down, takes stock and says "Screw you guys, I'm going home". And worse than that, he tries to get his brothers to do the same. He tricks Sanguinious into diverting to his position and tries to convince him to stay. Sanguinious has lost much of his Legion, he's been physically beaten in a way he never thought possible, he's far from home and just as confused as Guilliman (if not more so), but even still he recognizes that his *duty* is to go to Terra and fight for the Imperium, to die for it if necessary. Other Primarchs repeatedly show themselves to be willing to take risks and make sacrifices (even the greatest sacrifice possible) in order to defend the Emperor and the Imperium. When the cards are down, Guilliman shows himself unwilling to do so. Maybe you can overlook that or think that it wouldn't matter if he was Warmaster but personally I would never, ever chose someone to be in a position of absolute responsibility if I *knew* they would abandon it if pressed hard enough.



> Regarding the charisma factor among the Primarchs, its obvious from all the HH books describing the pre-Heresy Primarchs relationships that Horus's charisma didn't slake the competitive nature of his brothers, regardless of their personal relationships with him.


Actually I recall the opposite. I recall Horus going out of his way to meet with various Primarchs, discuss their concerns with his new position and address those concerns.



> Alpharius/Omegon still chart their own course despite their history with Horus; [snip] Sanguinius, Russ, Kahn, Corax, Manus, and Vulkan seem to be in full kicking-ass-taking-names mode before the Heresy; Fulgrim, Dorn, the Lion, and Perturabo are all otherwise primadonnas who think it should be them no matter who's selected; Magnus and Lorgar will both do their same thing - Magnus trying to stop the Warmaster being corrupted and Lorgar trying to corrupt him... they're both on their same headtrip for enlightenment.


All these things continue *because* Horus takes over. Would they still have happened if someone else was in charge? I don't think they would've. 



> Perturabo/Angron/Curze are all broken and accelerate toward their own dooms despite Horus becoming Warmaster;


1) Perturabo, Angron and Night Haunter remain fully functional generals long after Ullanor.

2) Horus recognized the best way to utilize Legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords, would Guilliman? By which I don't mean: Can Guilliman recognize the best strategies for them, because of course he could. I mean: Would Guilliman allow those Legions to continue functioning in the manner they are designed to, would he allow them to use the strategies they've come to embrace and depend on? His reaction to their 'excesses' leads me to think he wouldn't. But neither Angron or Night Haunter would be swayed on this, both recognize their roles and both have fully embraced them. Do you think they'd take kindly to goodie-two-shoes Guilliman telling them they're wrong? Horus knows how to make broken pieces work effectively, does Guilliman?



> Papa Smurf is also smart enough strategically to actually see the patterns Lorgar was creating to undermine the Imperium if he was placed at the center of command. The Heresy would still have happened, but it would have been a 2/3 loyalist 1/3 heretics war.


What 'patterns' was Lorgar creating? The Chaplains were a recognized and fully instituted part of Imperial policy. The Lodges were a far more covert thing, and I don't believe any existed beyond the Legions that turned, so there'd be no reason to expect Guilliman to be more aware of them. Further, the Heresy as instituted by Lorgar is a war unlike anything Guilliman had ever seen before. He's smart, yes, but is he smart enough to see something that literally no one else (not even the Emperor) saw coming?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Curze. Seriously.

He's paranoid enough to have everything covered, can see the damn future, and is capable of commiting atrocities that even other Astartes and his fellow Primarchs found distasteful. Considering the nature of 40K, and with perfect hindsight knowing what would have been created, I'd have put Curze in charge to put 10,000+ years of fear into the minds of those subjected to his forces violence, and prepared the human race as a whole for the harsh times of the future.

Despite his strong will, it is brittle, and once broken, he could be used; as Emperor, it wouldn't be hard to shore it up and to coach him how best to protect against others, but also to leave that plot hole size ***** in his defences for when/if he needed blowing up. The military leader IMHO, should not be the one who is seen as kind and considerate, but one who should be feared by those he faces as well as his subjects. The enforced interaction with others could have cured his neuroses, he could have had a more positive influence on his legion (or the legion's selections at least), and when the silk glove needed to come out, he could pass it on to his other brother Primarchs who were even more greatly loved; Vulkan, Horus, or Sanguinius, say.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Guilliman would not be a great choice. Just think of the consequences had Guilliman been seduced by the power of being Warmaster, Primarch or not he still is human, and with human frailties, he then could use his power to basically ride roughshot over the Emperor, i would say had Guilliman gone over to Chaos after being seduced, he takes is Ultramarine Legion with him, 60%+ of all Space Marines as well the traditional Legoins that went with Chaos, the Imperium would fall, the Emperor killed and Chaos wins by default.

Think of the book title.

The Guilliman Heresy.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> And yet, placed in the same (or far worse) situation not a single one of his brothers makes that decision. Guilliman *alone* abandons the Imperium in favour of his own empire (not even the Traitors do this). Guilliman sits down, takes stock and says "Screw you guys, I'm going home". And worse than that, he tries to get his brothers to do the same. He tricks Sanguinious into diverting to his position and tries to convince him to stay. Sanguinious has lost much of his Legion, he's been physically beaten in a way he never thought possible, he's far from home and just as confused as Guilliman (if not more so), but even still he recognizes that his *duty* is to go to Terra and fight for the Imperium, to die for it if necessary. Other Primarchs repeatedly show themselves to be willing to take risks and make sacrifices (even the greatest sacrifice possible) in order to defend the Emperor and the Imperium. When the cards are down, Guilliman shows himself unwilling to do so. Maybe you can overlook that or think that it wouldn't matter if he was Warmaster but personally I would never, ever chose someone to be in a position of absolute responsibility if I *knew* they would abandon it if pressed hard enough.


In all fairness though, _Unremembered Empire_ will address in detail the issue of Guilliman's loyalty. I think it's a little premature to say that Guilliman's Imperium Secundus is a dereliction of duty. 



Vaz said:


> Curze. Seriously.


I think you're off your rocker LOL



Achaylus72 said:


> Think of the book title. The Guilliman Heresy.


Sounds like you're saying Guilliman would've been a more effective arch-traitor than Horus


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> In all fairness though, _Unremembered Empire_ will address in detail the issue of Guilliman's loyalty. I think it's a little premature to say that Guilliman's Imperium Secundus is a dereliction of duty.
> 
> I think you're off your rocker LOL
> 
> Sounds like you're saying Guilliman would've been a more effective arch-traitor than Horus


Yes, considering that the Ultramarine Legion was the largest by far it's number eclipsed all other combined, with Guilliman taking 60% of all Available Space Marines over to Chaos, nothing would be able to stop him, and combining the other 9 Traitor Legion, that is the death of the Imperium as we would know it, what would happen is that any non-traitor legion would simply be wiped out, also there would be no break-up of the legions, nor there would be the Codex Astartes, one hell of big difference.

Or on the other hand, you have me thinking of another direction.

Guilliman is deposed as Legion Master of the Ultramarine and the Ultramarine maintain their loyalty to the Emperor.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> Yes, considering that the Ultramarine Legion was the largest by far it's number eclipsed all other combined, with Guilliman taking 60% of all Available Space Marines over to Chaos, nothing would be able to stop him, and combining the other 9 Traitor Legion, that is the death of the Imperium as we would know it, what would happen is that any non-traitor legion would simply be wiped out, also there would be no break-up of the legions, nor there would be the Codex Astartes, one hell of big difference.
> 
> Or on the other hand, you have me thinking of another direction.
> 
> Guilliman is deposed as Legion Master of the Ultramarine and the Ultramarine maintain their loyalty to the Emperor.


Whilst the Ultramarines were the largest legion, they didn't 'eclipse all the others combined'. They had a strength of 250,000. The average Legion size was 100,000. So whilst over twice as strong as a single legion, compared to the overall strength of the legions they're still outmatched by a ratio of 10 to 1. 

I'm not sure where you're getting this 60% of all available Space Marine numbers from. Are you perhaps thinking of the Ultramarines position amongst the loyalists during the Scouring or the number of second founding and subsequent chapters formed from their gene-seed? 

Besides if Guilliman were to revolt it's very unlikely the 9 Legions that would become the Traitor Legions would join him. He lacked the charisma of Horus and few of the primarchs were his friends. If he had revolted it's likely it would have been just him, perhaps a few others.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with Curze being selected, with the favour and attention of the Emperor he would have been hand molded into a functioning leader. If curze would have received the same amount of attention, training, and love that Horus did he would have been amazing. A Warmaster that could see the future and more importantly could see the exact outcome it was going to take, out of the millions of potential futures. Curze was also not afraid to do what needed to be done, yet he was also one of the legions with the lowest causality rate both of civilians and of astartes. 

I believe Curze would have been very effective at directing which legions to which location at the precise time they needed to be there, he would direct the big picture while leaving the minor details up to the primarchs under him. 

Furthermore I believe Curze would have hardened the human race, to prepare it for the monstrous future that was inevitably coming. 

Curze was not broken, he merely lacked the attention and guidance he so needed in order to actualize his potential. If the Emperor had shown him more attention, trained him, helped him utilize his gifts, Curze would have been unmatched.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting this 60% of all available Space Marine numbers from.


60% of M.41 Loyalist Chapters derive their geneseed from the Ultramarines. So...not very relevant to the current conversation.

I disagree with Curze. It might work on the short term, but as we saw with Nostromo, as soon as you turn your back people will revert back to whatever they were.

I STILL think Horus is the right choice for Warmaster. He just got along with most of his brothers. And the ones he didn't, they merely were indifferent. I don't think anyone overtly hated him (jealous of his elevation to Warmaster, but not outright hatred).

I would break up the role of Warmaster, though, and give the administrative portion to Guilliman. Maybe give the information gathering to the Alpha Legion (however much they'd be willing to share is another matter...)

I'm on the fence about the Thousand Sons researching the arcane. On one hand, if you keep an eye on them, they could discover a wealth of information. On the other hand, they're probably going to hide whatever they're doing. I don't see it really working unless Magnus buys into overseeing the works of his sons.

In short, I don't think forcing the Warmaster to wear so many hats at once will work. The job is too vast for a single person--or demigod. You'd be better off working with a group of individuals working in concert. Maybe call them the Elevated Nobles of Earth or something. That ought to work.

But if I HAD to pick, I'd still choose Horus, murder Erebus, and purge the Word Bearers.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> 60% of M.41 Loyalist Chapters derive their geneseed from the Ultramarines. So...not very relevant to the current conversation.
> 
> I disagree with Curze. It might work on the short term, but as we saw with Nostromo, as soon as you turn your back people will revert back to whatever they were.
> 
> ...


The reason I believe Curze would have been very effective as warmaster (under the pretense that he received the same favor, and attention that Horus did), was that he would forsee the uprisings and know how to deal with them. Seeing as he would have all 18 legions at his command, he could garrison small amounts of space marines on conquered worlds to prevent uprisings. Also keep in mind that Nostramo was very different from a majority of the worlds in the imperium, it was the epitome of a dystopian world.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lux said:


> , was that he would forsee the uprisings


Curze's foresight wasn't all-seeing. Nor was it 100% accurate. It didn't even seem particularly under his control. It just...happened. Though he did catch wind of the Horus Heresy before hand. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done.



Lux said:


> he could garrison small amounts of space marines on conquered worlds to prevent uprisings.


That's sorta one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors turned to Chaos.



Lux said:


> Also keep in mind that Nostramo was very different from a majority of the worlds in the imperium, it was the epitome of a dystopian world.


Funny thing, I reckon that's a hit against Curze. Nostramo was, as you said, a dystpoian hell-hole. It's not a place where you give everyone food, water, shelter, and education and everything turns to garden of Eden. You needed a firm, brutal hand to keep things in line.

Precisely what Curze did.

Precisely what 99.99% of the rest of the Imperium did not need.


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## Viciator (Jul 12, 2012)

I think Lion El'Jonson would be the choice 

He isn't made for socialisation, he sucks at it but at war he's perfect! He basically personifies the Emperor's Judgement and neutrality - his actions are without remorse or conscience but they are the right and the good choice. 

Sanguinius would make a great 'next' Emperor (even Horus said it - each Primarch is a different facet of the Emperor but Sanguinius had it all). It also fits with the whole Roman thing with Julius Caesar secretly having epilepsy (spoiler alert? xD). I guess the difference was that Julius didn't have a few hundred thousand warriors under his command with the same disease D:


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Abnett does a good evaluation with this in "Know No Fear". 

Guilliman I think would absolutely be the right choice, though some good reasons for Horus being picked instead were discussed in that novel. I think it was Horus being a bit more charismatic or something. Everyone loved Horus, remember. The idea of any of them rebelling was unimaginable at the time.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Viciator said:


> He isn't made for socialisation, he sucks at it but at war he's perfect!


I daresay a Great Crusade Warmaster's war-making skills are of secondary importance. I mean, you want a Warmaster who can string enough victories under his belt for respect, but that's merely a means to an end. You need someone who can keep 17 demi-gods (who think they know best) in line. And for that, I don't think the Lion is well-suited, as you said.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> I daresay a Great Crusade Warmaster's war-making skills are of secondary importance. I mean, you want a Warmaster who can string enough victories under his belt for respect, but that's merely a means to an end. You need someone who can keep 17 demi-gods (who think they know best) in line. And for that, I don't think the Lion is well-suited, as you said.


I'm onboard there the Lion is too egocentric to be the Warmaster. He is better as a direct leader in the battle. Guilliman or a combination of people like Lost suggested would be a better idea. And Horus was the best idea until he got corrupted, but that's the basis of the story of 40k., favorite son betrays dad.


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## Viciator (Jul 12, 2012)

Aumm good one I forgot to put it into consideration... 

The way I think it should have been done is to give each of the Primarchs a different rule just like you have a Prime Ministers and ministers under them.

Dorn and Perturabro for defence and fortification of fragile areas in the Imperium, The Lion as the 'Master of War', Konrad and Corvus for stealth opperations and Guerilla warfare, Alpharius for espionage, Guilliman for the political and social roles as well as maintaining the complete infrastructure of the Imperium from the smallest most isolated agriworld to the biggest Hive World and protecting the weakest planets and so on... 

As for calling the Lion egocentric I think you are wrong, or maybe he is egocentric but less than other Primarchs like Guilliman... I think he is one of the only Primarchs who understood the role of the Emperor in the Imperium (by that I mean he understood the importance of the Emperor while others, like Guilliman, didn't care much for Him and supported the idea of usurping the throne when the Emperor is dead) and one of the Primarchs who loved their Father the most.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I feel curze with his foresight and perception of doing what needs to be done would prevent rebellion. The iron warriors rebelled due to their legion being the only one used for garrison duties, curze would have each legion use a portion of their marines for garrisoning worlds.

As for those who state curzes ideology was not effective, is just not true. Curze had the lowest amount of casualities in his crusade campaigns. Furthermore curze had a very high victory count, with one of the lowest rebellion rates of his conquered worlds. Additionally his worlds were some of the most productive in all of the imperium, they always met their quotas for production, always gave tithes.

The only world that rebelled against curze was nostramo, which was the worst world he had ever conquered, none of the others did what nostramo did. Curze was pragmatic and percetible, couple that with him being shown the same favor, love, and guidance from the emperor that horus received, would ensure curze was stable.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Viciator said:


> like Guilliman, didn't care much for Him and supported the idea of usurping the throne when the Emperor is dead


This is purely my opinion at this point, but I always believed that Guilliman cared about both the Imperium and the Emperor. From his point of view, the Imperium and the Emperor was crippled beyond complete salvation. Better to save some than lose everything. It's like amputating an a couple limbs to save a person's life. We should get a better idea of Guilliman's intentions in that one soon to be released book (forgot its name), though, right?



Lux said:


> I feel curze with his foresight and perception of doing what needs to be done would prevent rebellion.


His foresight was cloudy and unpredictable. If we were going to use anyone's foresight, I'd trust Magnus's over Curze's.



Lux said:


> The iron warriors rebelled due to their legion being the only one used for garrison duties, curze would have each legion use a portion of their marines for garrisoning worlds.


And the whole reason why the Iron Warriors had to do it was because no one else wanted to do it. How are you going to convince 17 Primarchs to force their sons to be glorified PDF? Plus, some are clearly unsuited for the duties. The World Eaters overseeing a recently conquered planet? Or even Curze's own Night Lords?

Would he allow these Legions to skip out on their duties? If he does, then rest of the Legions are going to get pissed. If he doesn't, then a lot of people are going to end up dead when the World Eaters and Night Lords get bored and find excuses to start massacring people.



Lux said:


> Curze had the lowest amount of casualities in his crusade campaigns.


Source? I imagine the Thousand Sons, a Legion one tenth the average size Legion, suffered fewer overall causalities.

In terms of operatives lost as percentage of overall strength, I imagine the Alpha Legion probably came out ahead. Their method of warfare was slow, careful, and calculating. 



Lux said:


> Furthermore curze had a very high victory count,


Source? We know that Horus was first, Guilliman second. The Lion was up there as well. Later on, Lorgar's men took the lead.

I can't recall any passages that state the Night Lords racking up a particularly high victory count.



Lux said:


> with one of the lowest rebellion rates of his conquered worlds


Source?



Lux said:


> Additionally his worlds were some of the most productive in all of the imperium, they always met their quotas for production, always gave tithes.


Source?



Lux said:


> The only world that rebelled against curze was nostramo,


Source?



Lux said:


> which was the worst world he had ever conquered


Source?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

There are two legions perfect for that, the Word Bearers and Ultramarines. They were both builders and Lorgar is basically Guilliman's evil twin. But Guilliman was a glory-hog and Lorgar for obvious reasons weren't used.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Rogal Dorn, he oozes awesome from every part of his body, when he pisses the toilet feels blessed to have such a titanicly awesome level of sheer manliness left in it, you don't need to flush the damn thing, it feels compelled through duty to swallow it, he is so epic he is the only man to ever make chuck Norris question his sexual orientation, his hair was never even white, it just one day realised it was on Rogal fucking Dorns head and turned white from sheer awesome overdose


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Sorry for the delay in continuing our conversation. It also sounds like you've developed a solid antagonism against the Ultramarines and Guillaumin, which seems to be pretty common, but ah well.



MEQinc said:


> And yet, placed in the same (or far worse) situation not a single one of his brothers makes that decision. Guilliman *alone* abandons the Imperium in favour of his own empire (not even the Traitors do this). Guilliman sits down, takes stock and says "Screw you guys, I'm going home". And worse than that, he tries to get his brothers to do the same. He tricks Sanguinious into diverting to his position and tries to convince him to stay. Sanguinious has lost much of his Legion, he's been physically beaten in a way he never thought possible, he's far from home and just as confused as Guilliman (if not more so), but even still he recognizes that his *duty* is to go to Terra and fight for the Imperium, to die for it if necessary. Other Primarchs repeatedly show themselves to be willing to take risks and make sacrifices (even the greatest sacrifice possible) in order to defend the Emperor and the Imperium. When the cards are down, Guilliman shows himself unwilling to do so. Maybe you can overlook that or think that it wouldn't matter if he was Warmaster but personally I would never, ever chose someone to be in a position of absolute responsibility if I *knew* they would abandon it if pressed hard enough.


Which brother are you talking about? Dorn was already on Terra and stayed there for the duration. Manus runs headlong into Isstvan V despite everyone’s best advice and gets himself killed and his legion reduced to almost nothing. Corax returns to Terra and won’t accept any answer besides giving a super-Astares gene template to the Alpha Legion. While the Emperor gave permission to Corax for all this he even says it’s all a bad idea but knows Corax won’t do anything else. The Kahn is tied up across the galaxy and doesn’t even know anything is going on until before the Siege of Terra, and Sanguinius is in a similar position until well into the Heresy.

Guillaumin, on the other hand, doesn’t pull a Cartman imitation, but says, “Holy shit, my homeworld is on the verge of being destroyed, several of my most productive planets have been destroyed, half my legion has been destroyed, I have two entire Traitor Legions trying to destroy all the other worlds in Ultramar, and no one can even get through to Terra, and the Astronomican is completely dark.” When he can get through to Terra, he sets sail across half the galaxy despite warp storms that look like Old Night. Sounds like solid decision making to me.



> Actually I recall the opposite. I recall Horus going out of his way to meet with various Primarchs, discuss their concerns with his new position and address those concerns.


I don’t disagree with you here, but it still didn’t stop all the documented questioning and envy among his brothers.



> All these things continue *because* Horus takes over. Would they still have happened if someone else was in charge? I don't think they would've.


In Horus Rising, Horus even states he’s not doing anything more than just keeping the Crusade going on the course it was and struggling with the management side. Although I agree that without Horus as Warmaster, Alpharius/Omegon might have turned to him to ask a few questions before just turning traitor, which would have been positive for the Imperium. Lorgar was already 45+ years on the path of Heresy by the time of Ullanor. I do agree with you that Magnus might have taken a different path, only assuming that Guillaumin wouldn’t have been the target of Chaos for turning simply because he’s Warmaster. In this case, perhaps he could have called on Guillaumin with far less consequence to give his warning than blowing down the doors of Terra.

The egos of the rest of the Primarchs carry through no matter who’s in charge. Even after the Heresy breaks out, Horus only manages the traitor side of the ledger by fear and subterfuge… with the exception of maybe Lorgar, who already believes Ingathel’s claim that he’s the ‘Chosen One’ and not Horus.

I would note that Guillaumin (was apparently, since I don't have source outside Lexicanum) led in large part by Guillaumin, who was also key in ensuring the survival of the Imperium and effective reorganization that's allowed it to last another 10K years despite the Traitor Legions and all the other Xenos out there. I just think that with the Emperor backing him up and not active Traitor legions, Guillaumin would have been able to corral the rest of the Primarchs to continue the GC.



> 1) Perturabo, Angron and Night Haunter remain fully functional generals long after Ullanor.
> 
> 2) Horus recognized the best way to utilize Legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords, would Guilliman? By which I don't mean: Can Guilliman recognize the best strategies for them, because of course he could. I mean: Would Guilliman allow those Legions to continue functioning in the manner they are designed to, would he allow them to use the strategies they've come to embrace and depend on? His reaction to their 'excesses' leads me to think he wouldn't. But neither Angron or Night Haunter would be swayed on this, both recognize their roles and both have fully embraced them. Do you think they'd take kindly to goodie-two-shoes Guilliman telling them they're wrong? Horus knows how to make broken pieces work effectively, does Guilliman?


All three of the primarchs I mentioned were functioning generals after Ullanor, yes, but Horus is able to recruit them into the Heresy because they are all but lost by the time the Heresy commences,which tells me a little goodie-twoshoes might have been in order before they completely melt down. Perturabo commits genocide on Olympia and sees himself on the verge of being cleansed by the Emperor, Angron is virtually uncontrollable as described early in Galaxy in Flames, and the Night Haunter destroys Nostramo and goes off the rails. If Horus hadn't been turned, he would have had to face three brothers he couldn't control at all.

I haven’t seen anything in actual fluff that shows these three were effective any longer due to the presence of Horus than had Guillaumin been chosen Warmaster. And considering Guillaumin built and governed the "500 Worlds of Ultramar", I would say that's proof enough that he knew how to effectively use all his resources, broken or otherwise.



> What 'patterns' was Lorgar creating? The Chaplains were a recognized and fully instituted part of Imperial policy. The Lodges were a far more covert thing, and I don't believe any existed beyond the Legions that turned, so there'd be no reason to expect Guilliman to be more aware of them. Further, the Heresy as instituted by Lorgar is a war unlike anything Guilliman had ever seen before. He's smart, yes, but is he smart enough to see something that literally no one else (not even the Emperor) saw coming?


Yeah, this is a stretch, but looking at the examples in Know No Fear, Guillaumin pays attention to the extreme details and draws patterns out of them. The Emperor had a massive blind spot considering he couldn’t even smell the taint of Chaos on Lorgar, one of his own sons, for decades before the betrayal. Horus Rising details how much Horus hates and feels overwhelmed by the daily tasks of running the Great Crusade, so I do think that having Guillaumin in his place at the center of things would have allowed his analytic abilities to smell something wrong with Lorgar and the Chaplains before being completely blindsided by the Heresy.

While the Emperor did have a blind spot for Lorgar's treachery, he did still see the Heresy coming. Calling Dorn to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace when the Imperium is in the final stage of the Great Crusade is prima fascia proof of that.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Sorry for the delay in continuing our conversation. It also sounds like you've developed a solid antagonism against the Ultramarines and Guillaumin, which seems to be pretty common, but ah well.


I don't hate the Ultramarines. I dislike them, and their Primarch, for their (and especially his) hypocrisy but I don't hate them. Sorry if that came across wrong.



> Which brother are you talking about?




Sanguinious. As I stated in my prior post. _Fear to Tread_ ends with the Blood Angels running for home, following what they believe to be the Astronomicon and winding up in Ultramar. 




> Guillaumin, on the other hand, doesn’t pull a Cartman imitation, but says, “Holy shit, my homeworld is on the verge of being destroyed, several of my most productive planets have been destroyed, half my legion has been destroyed, I have two entire Traitor Legions trying to destroy all the other worlds in Ultramar, and no one can even get through to Terra, and the Astronomican is completely dark.” When he can get through to Terra, he sets sail across half the galaxy despite warp storms that look like Old Night. Sounds like solid decision making to me.


1) Guilliman was clearly able to get to Terra earlier than he did. The Blood Angels manage to get from Ultramar to Terra before the traitors, how is it that Guilliman wasn't?

2) Other people were able to get through to Terra. Remember that the Heresy lasted for quite a while. Throughout that period Guilliman either makes no attempt to get informed or simply doesn't help, both of which are effectively an abandonment of the Imperium in its time of greatest need.



> I don’t disagree with you here, but it still didn’t stop all the documented questioning and envy among his brothers.


Perhaps not but it did stop that questioning and envy from negatively affecting the campaign (and it does seem to have stopped most of the questioning).




> only assuming that Guillaumin wouldn’t have been the target of Chaos for turning simply because he’s Warmaster.


Which is an increadibly foolish assumption, given that the whole reason they picked Horus was because he was Warmaster (at least seemingly).




> Even after the Heresy breaks out, Horus only manages the traitor side of the ledger by fear and subterfuge




Except Perturabo, who notes in _Angel Exterminatus_ that Horus was never less than kind and understanding with him. Or Angron, who worked extremely closely with Horus throughout much of this period (and certainly wouldn't respond well to being threatened). Or Fulgrim, again one of Horus' closest brothers during Horus' Warmastery. Or Night Haunter, who again is not one to be cowed by fear. Or Lorgar, as you note. And (while I can't say this with as much certainty) I doubt Alpharius could be manipulated by subterfuge, nor do I see any evidence to suggest that Mortarion was manipulated or pressured into turning. What I see instead is Horus carefully growing relations with some of his most stubbornly anti-social brothers and then using that leverage to his advantage. I see no attempt, quite literally none, by Guilliman to befriend his brothers. He's the only loyalist Primarch I've seen to express no sense of personal loss at his brothers' treason. Because he doesn't know them and he doesn't care to.
 



> I would note that Guillaumin (was apparently, since I don't have source outside Lexicanum) led in large part by Guillaumin, who was also key in ensuring the survival of the Imperium and effective reorganization that's allowed it to last another 10K years despite the Traitor Legions and all the other Xenos out there. I just think that with the Emperor backing him up and not active Traitor legions, Guillaumin would have been able to corral the rest of the Primarchs to continue the GC.


I assume you're talking about the Scouring? 

That being the case I'll point out that Dorn (at the time one of only 4 Primarchs he had to deal with and previously one of the most unquestioningly loyal) had to be fired upon in this period in order to get him to recognize Guilliman's authority. Meanwhile his other remaining brothers (also the generally loyal and easier-to-get-along-with ones) seem to have basically gone off and done their own thing, seemingly with giving two-shits about Guilliman's orders. If that's your proof that he could handle dealing with his actually temperamental brothers then I'm afraid you're rather proving my point.



> All three of the primarchs I mentioned were functioning generals after Ullanor, yes, but Horus is able to recruit them into the Heresy because they are all but lost by the time the Heresy commences,which tells me a little goodie-twoshoes might have been in order before they completely melt down.




Do you really, truely, honestly believe that there was anything that could be said to Angron or Night Haunter that would've changed the path they and their Legions were on? I don't. And I think any attempt to do so would've ended very poorly for Guilliman. Just look at how Night Haunter reacted when Dorn questioned him (hint: *not well*).



> Perturabo commits genocide on Olympia and sees himself on the verge of being cleansed by the Emperor,


1) The genocide of Olympia was manipulated by the Word Bearers and is in no way indicative of a general downward slide in Pertuarbo's facilities. Indeed his intense remorse after the fact shows that he wasn't mentally all that fucked up.
2) Perturabo was never "on the verge" of punishment by anyone because Olympia occurred at pretty much exactly the same time as the Heresy (I'm unclear as to the exact timeline because it seems to be a key reason he turned, but is also clearly not held against him going to Istvaan V). 



> Angron is virtually uncontrollable as described early in Galaxy in Flames,


And yet also shown in that book is that Horus generally did manage to control him.



> If Horus hadn't been turned, he would have had to face three brothers he couldn't control at all.


Debatable. The Iron Warriors fall was hardly inevitable. The World Eaters were likely pretty much doomed but wouldn't necessarily have turned traitor before being consumed by the Nails. Angron and his Legion show themselves to be remarkably forgiving of slights against them and just as happy butchering in the Imperium's name as any other. Night Haunter was also likely a lost cause but it does seem that his sanity slippage accelerated rapidly right around the time of the Heresy and I have a hard time believing that was entirely coincidental. Plus, he and his Legion also seem to actively enjoy doing what they do for the Imperium and certainly did a much better job of it while they were still 'employed' so to speak.
 



> And considering Guillaumin built and governed the "500 Worlds of Ultramar", I would say that's proof enough that he knew how to effectively use all his resources, broken or otherwise.


Does is show that he can use broken pieces or does it show that he doesn't have any? Guilliman had the luxury of only using the pieces he wanted with Ultramar, and so could ensure that those peices functioned exactly as he wanted them to. He doesn't have that luxury as Warmaster.




> The Emperor had a massive blind spot considering he couldn’t even smell the taint of Chaos on Lorgar, one of his own sons, for decades before the betrayal.


But you believe Guilliman, who unlike the Emperor doesn't know about Chaos and hasn't seen Lorgar in a while (because they really don't get along), would be able to see this?




> While the Emperor did have a blind spot for Lorgar's treachery, he did still see the Heresy coming. Calling Dorn to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace when the Imperium is in the final stage of the Great Crusade is prima fascia proof of that.


I'm not so sure he saw the Heresy coming. He almost certainly saw something coming but if he in anyway suspected an internal schism I would have expected to see a) less shock when it happened, b) some of the more 'troublesome' Legions being dealt with (or at the very least monitored) in advance and c) less intentionally isolating himself from the sources of that schism.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Wow MEQ. I have seen dislike and I have seen hatred. I don't like the Ultra Marines one bit, but your points were over the top. And coming from me who is a classified hater that says alot.

It has long been canon that the Ultras was distracted on Calth. And then they were trolled by the Alpha Legion. They were delayed on the way on Horus' orders.

Also Two Meter, you sound a bit unprofessional when you warp a Primarch's name. That's like calling Angron Angryon. It's make you sound like a five year old. It's just poor taste.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't know how some of you could pick Curze. The Warmaster must be able to keep his brothers in a state of relative contentment and obedience. The Warmaster is "first among equals" but when he issues an order, his brothers are supposed to obey. 

The choice of Curze wouldn't sit well with a number of primarchs, especially the prouder ones. I believe primarchs like Dorn, Guilliman, Horus, The Lion, maybe even Fulgrim and Magnus would have a hard time submitting to Curze. These primarchs would all find Curze to be a poor choice. Some would view themselves as far superior choices or would rather support a less broken primarch.

Interesting unconventional choices would be Corax, Vulkan, or the Khan. I can't really see mentally inflexible Ferrus as the Warmaster.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> It has long been canon that the Ultras was distracted on Calth. And then they were trolled by the Alpha Legion. They were delayed on the way on Horus' orders.


And it's recently become canon that the Guilliman attempted to create a Second Imperium, intentionally disdaining to aid the Imperium proper, including his brothers and his father, in its time of greatest need. It's also established in recent canon that the Blood Angels were in Ultramar before they were on Terra (but after Signus which appears to roughly coincide with the Word Bearer attack on Calth). This is the fluff that my statements are based off. Of course I don't expect you to be familiar with this fluff since prior debates have shown that you have no interest in the HH novels.



> Also Two Meter, you sound a bit unprofessional when you warp a Primarch's name. That's like calling Angron Angryon. It's make you sound like a five year old. It's just poor taste.


Interesting, coming from someone who in this very post misspelled Ultramarines. :grin:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> And it's recently become canon that the Guilliman attempted to create a Second Imperium, intentionally disdaining to aid the Imperium proper, including his brothers and his father, in its time of greatest need.


We don't know that for sure yet. He might've had very valid, non-selfish reasons for not rushing to Terra. 

The Lion was supposedly a fence-sitter until Aaron settled the matter in _Savage Weapons_.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I didn't misspell, I used the first edition coining of them. That's something else.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> He might've had very valid, non-selfish reasons for not rushing to Terra.


The Word Bearers very deliberately took Guilliman and his Ultramarines out of the fight. They seeded warpstorms around Ultramar preventing astropathic messages and warp travel from Ultramar to the wider galaxy.

From _Betrayer_, Lorgar says "‘Ultramar is blighted by the Ruinstorm, cut off
from the Imperium. But I know the way back through the fire. We will gather our
fleets spread across the Five Hundred Worlds, then we shall rejoin Horus."

There's a reason why Guilliman was unable to assist the Imperium until it was too late.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hailene said:


> The Word Bearers very deliberately took Guilliman and his Ultramarines out of the fight. They seeded warpstorms around Ultramar preventing astropathic messages and warp travel from Ultramar to the wider galaxy.
> 
> From _Betrayer_, Lorgar says "‘Ultramar is blighted by the Ruinstorm, cut off
> from the Imperium. But I know the way back through the fire. We will gather our
> ...


And yet we have the blood angels at Ultramar right now, yet they reached Terra, he truth is as Meq says, it isn't simply warp storms, but Guillimans desire to maintain the Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> We don't know that for sure yet. He might've had very valid, non-selfish reasons for not rushing to Terra.


I don't necessarily think _MEQ_ is suggesting Guilliman abandoned the Imperium out of any selfish notions. As far as we currently know (prior to _Unremembered Empire_ being released) Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, possibly the Imperial Fists Retribution Fleet, and other loyalist elements were able to visit Ultramar after their respective delays (Signus, Phall, etc) and still make it to Terra prior to the arrival of Horus's fleet. This suggests that Guilliman and the XIII would have also been able to make it prior to the arrival of Horus (despite the Ruinstorm), which may well have significantly altered the course of the Siege of Terra. 

Going off the previous lore (_Know No Fear_, _Rules of Engagement_ etc) it would seem that Guilliman intentionally doesn't rush headlong to Terra as most of the other loyalists do (and that being the standing Imperial order as given by Dorn) but stays in Ultramar in order to preserve and consolidate what he can, believing that was what the Emperor would have wanted. However, something obviously changes as Guilliman does then head to Terra towards the end of the Heresy and arrives after the death of Horus and the retreat of the rebels.

Realistically, I think we'll have to wait for _Unremembered Empire_ in order to reach any meaningful conclusion. Regardless, I think the _Imperium Secundus_ has amazing potential as a sub-plot.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> Snip


Holy fuck you're back??



Beaviz81 said:


> I didn't misspell, I used the first edition coining of them. That's something else.


No, it is misspelling. All established current canon says the Ultramarines and has done so for a very long time.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> We don't know that for sure yet. He might've had very valid, non-selfish reasons for not rushing to Terra.


We do know for sure that he chose to abandon the Imperium, he says so himself. We don't know why he made that decision, but you'll note I don't speculate on that. My entire argument against Guilliman is based purely on the fact that he made the decision, regardless of the reasoning he used.



> The Lion was supposedly a fence-sitter until Aaron settled the matter in _Savage Weapons_.


And should someone come along and retcon Guilliman's decision then I'll obviously withdraw the point. However I think it's fair to judge Guilliman based on what we know now because otherwise there's no point in debating anything on this site (as at any point any author could simply right something to contradict literally every piece of evidence we currently have).


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

To throw a curve ball I'd say Alpharius/Omegon using an unusual method:

We are told that at least Guilliman didn't respect Alpharius and it's possible the others wouldn't either as he was the last to be found and his Legion was the youngest.

Therefore if I was the Emperor I'd make Alpharius warmaster secretly it so it would appear all orders were coming from the Emperor on Terra but behind the scenes the plans were being made by Alpharius/Omegon. These plans would be then fed down the Alpha Legion's communication networks which seem to be far more advanced and undetectable to the other Legions (especially if they weren't looking for them) This would get around the jealousy felt by some of the Primarchs towards Horus being promoted to Warmaster.

The Alpha Legion could then implant their marines into the other Legions secretly to act as part of the Alpha Legion's Galaxy Wide Web of information. In this way Alpharius/Omegon could keep tabs on what all the other Legions were doing and could head of dissent/heresy or at least warn others (in the case of the World Eaters/Night Lords) of their activities so appropriate action could be taken.

To be effective a Warmaster needs as much information as possible and the Alpha Legion were undisputed masters of this. None of the other legions would have been able to as much as sneeze without Alpharius knowing about it. Using his spy networks he could potentially have made the other legions more effective than they already were by finding out their problems and resolving them.

I envision Alpharius reading his spy reports and thinking something like the following:

"Ouch, Angron and Night Haunter are going insane - Hmm, at an appropriate time let's make sure their flagships are accidentally lost in the warp due to the navigators dying and the geller fields failing. We'll then appoint new Legion Masters who are less psychotic and keep the 2 legions under control."

"Lorgar and the Word Bearers are worshipping new gods, oh dear? - Let's send Angron and Night Haunter and their Legions to assist Leman Russ and the Space Wolves in destroying the Word Bearers, as they like to kill things and their respective accidents could happen afterwards"

"Hmm, this isn't good, Perturabo doesn't like the way the Iron Warriors are split up and used and resents his building skills being ignored or misused. Right then Perturabo, how about you come to Terra to help design the Emperor's Palace? While you're here you can design and build some awesome buildings on Terra and having a rest from trench warfare? I'll send Dorn and the Imperial Fists to relieve you."

"Magnus is using forbidden technologies is he? Well we're open minded in the Alpha Legion so I'll send Alpha Legion Librarians to study with the Thousand Sons, learn from them and see if we can use these technologies or whether we have to stamp down on them. Maybe we can find a specialist use for Magnus and his Legion as deception experts. I'll also make sure the Space Wolves and Death Guard aren't deployed anywhere near the Thousand Sons."

"Brilliant news, the Emperor's Children have found a way of making their geneseed all work at peak efficiency. Alpha Legion apothecaries can find out how and have this information subtly spread amongst the other legions to assist them."

"Guilliman and his Legion make sure the conquered planets are soon restored to peak efficiency. I'll make sure his Legion are deployed to badly damaged planets to help restore them. I'll also make sure critical planets are assaulted using his principles along with the Alpha Legion methods."

"The Raven Guard are brilliant at covert operations, I'll make sure their stealth units are used to the maximum efficiency where their skills and tactics are more appropriate than Alpha Legion tactics."

etc etc


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

That was a really good post Zerachiel, good job. I do agree Alpharius would have been a very effective leader, even more so in the position of warmaster.

I suppose what it all comes down to is what type of objectives are you trying to achieve, each primarch as warmaster would offer their own benefits. Yes the main objective is conquest of the galaxy for human domination, but each primarch as warmaster would offer a different pathway to that end result. Furthermore depending upon who is warmaster, when that end result is reached it will manifest entirely different depending upon who reached it as war master.

I believe any of the primarchs as warmaster would have accomplished total conquest of the galaxy for human domination, however I do believe the galaxy would have looked vastly different when comparing that end result with scenarios regarding different primarchs being the warmaster.

I for one beleive Lorgar would have made an excellent Warmaster, under the pretense that the Emperor would have shown him the same favor and attention that he showed Horus. In the end the primarch that was always goign to be made warmaster was going to be the one the Emperor found first, the one who he loved most and showed the most attention/teachings to. 

If Lorgar was found first, I believe the Emperor would have shaped him perfectly due to Lorgar wanting to be shaped by the Emperor and allowing himself to be so. Imagine the effectiveness and efficiency that Lorgar displayed post of his disciplinary action, coupled with the unshakable loyalty he had towards his father pre-disciplinary action. Lorgar would have never turned traitor due to him being taught from the start by the Emperor of what it was to be an effective commander.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> To throw a curve ball I'd say Alpharius/Omegon


I would disagree. They were found too late to really establish any relationships with others--just, what, 30 years before Horus's appointment?

They also had weak relationships with their brothers. Some even despised their method of war, though notably Horus praised that the Alpha Legion's method of war. I don't think the Alpharius/Omegron would have been suited to be Warmaster.

They definitely could have been the Warmaster's hitman or info gatherers...but as the Warmaster? I don't think so.

It's more than getting the job done. It's about keeping every one in line and moving in the same general direction.
~~~~~~~

Lux, I'm still awaiting those citations.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> I would disagree. They were found too late to really establish any relationships with others--just, what, 30 years before Horus's appointment?
> 
> They also had weak relationships with their brothers. Some even despised their method of war, though notably Horus praised that the Alpha Legion's method of war. I don't think the Alpharius/Omegron would have been suited to be Warmaster.
> 
> ...


Hailene I'm still awaiting your citations


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Id pick Alpharius. Mainly because he's one of the few primarchs pictured in the fluff that doesn't seem to take the bigger hammer approach to tactics.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lux said:


> Hailene I'm still awaiting your citations


Funny trying to deflect the issue. How about this, you point out any issues you had with what I said and I'll cite the appropriate sources and you do the same.

In fact, here's my first source I'd like to cite, from _Void Stalker_, Talos said, "The Legion [the Night Lords] had taken immense casualties in the Great Crusade, in service to the Emperor."

So, what would you like me to cite again?

And don't forget to try to cite your sources. Not that you ever really do, but let's pretend, okay?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> Funny trying to deflect the issue. How about this, you point out any issues you had with what I said and I'll cite the appropriate sources and you do the same.
> 
> In fact, here's my first source I'd like to cite, from _Void Stalker_, Talos said, "The Legion [the Night Lords] had taken immense casualties in the Great Crusade, in service to the Emperor."
> 
> ...


Deflecting the issue is a silly thing to do Hailene, so why do you insist on doing so? Please cite your sources if you wish to continue this civil debate of intellectual propensities.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> That was a really good post Zerachiel, good job. I do agree Alpharius would have been a very effective leader, even more so in the position of warmaster.
> 
> I suppose what it all comes down to is what type of objectives are you trying to achieve, each primarch as warmaster would offer their own benefits. Yes the main objective is conquest of the galaxy for human domination, but each primarch as warmaster would offer a different pathway to that end result. Furthermore depending upon who is warmaster, when that end result is reached it will manifest entirely different depending upon who reached it as war master.


Cheers, I had this left field idea and ran with it  



Lux said:


> I believe any of the primarchs as warmaster would have accomplished total conquest of the galaxy for human domination, however I do believe the galaxy would have looked vastly different when comparing that end result with scenarios regarding different primarchs being the warmaster.


I think all but Angron (even Night Haunter) could have made effective Warmasters but as you said above the resulting Imperium would have been very different. I can't see Angron in control of the Imperium as he was dying and couldn't even control his own legion let alone exploit the other legions to their maximum effect.

Night Haunter's Imperium would resemble Gotham City I think :grin:
Mortarion's Imperium would be interesting too. A dark and bleak place I think.



hailene said:


> I would disagree. They were found too late to really establish any relationships with others--just, what, 30 years before Horus's appointment?
> 
> They also had weak relationships with their brothers. Some even despised their method of war, though notably Horus praised that the Alpha Legion's method of war. I don't think the Alpharius/Omegron would have been suited to be Warmaster.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with your conclusions which is why I put in special conditions that his orders would appear to come from the Emperor directly to get round this. I think the advantage to this is that there would be no jealousy issue either as no-one would know that Alpharius/Omegon were actually Warmaster as the other Primarchs would think their orders were coming from the Emperor directly. Exactly the sneakiness we'd expect from A/O as well :biggrin:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lux said:


> Deflecting the issue is a silly thing to do Hailene, so why do you insist on doing so? Please cite your sources if you wish to continue this civil debate of intellectual propensities.


Holy Jesus. You know there's a reason why hardly anyone takes you seriously. Fine, whatever.



hailene said:


> His foresight was cloudy and unpredictable.


Malcharion talks about Curze's foresight in _Soul Hunter_, ""Even the primarch's visions were nebulous at times. Vague, he would say. Clouded."



hailene said:


> And the whole reason why the Iron Warriors had to do it was because no one else wanted to do it.


Codex Astartes Book 1, page 33.



hailene said:


> I imagine the Thousand Sons, a Legion one tenth the average size Legion


Taken from _Thousand Sons_ where it lists that they had roughly ten thousand warriors.

"At a conservative estimate, Ahriman guessed that just over a thousand warriors had escaped the attack of the Wulfen.
“A tenth of the Legion,” he said."



hailene said:


> In terms of operatives lost as percentage of overall strength, I imagine the Alpha Legion probably came out ahead. Their method of warfare was slow, careful, and calculating.


Seen and depicted throughout _Legion_.

Also in the Codex Astartes Extra, it describes the Alpha Legion's performance: "The Legion soon gained a reputation for devastatingly coordinated campaigns. While these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were _far less costly in troops_ which enabled Alpharius to spread his forces widely."
~~~~~~

Aaaaand done. Not that I really expect you to reply, but, hey, the price of being the better person.



zerachiel76 said:


> I think the advantage to this is that there would be no jealousy issue either as no-one would know that Alpharius/Omegon were actually Warmaster as the other Primarchs would think their orders were coming from the Emperor directly.


That could work...rearrange some astropathic messages to "guide" certain armies and fleets around. 

This would have to be with the Emperor's permission, of course. But that's a very nifty idea. Circumvent the issue of being the first amongst equals that being Warmaster is.

Though imagine the can of worms that unleashes when (because a secret this large will leak one day) the rest of the Primarchs figure out they've been dancing to Alpharius's tune and not Emperor's commands.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> That could work...rearrange some astropathic messages to "guide" certain armies and fleets around.
> 
> This would have to be with the Emperor's permission, of course. But that's a very nifty idea. Circumvent the issue of being the first amongst equals that being Warmaster is.
> 
> Though imagine the can of worms that unleashes when (because a secret this large will leak one day) the rest of the Primarchs figure out they've been dancing to Alpharius's tune and not Emperor's commands.


Yeah the can of worms would be awesome to behold if it came out by accident. However the thing with the Alpha Legion is that if the leak did happen I think Alpharius would exploit it. I also think he would deliberately spread the idea early with no supporting evidence to make the idea seem stupid to the other Primarchs. 

I doubt the other Primarchs would believe it whether or not it was deliberately leaked or not. They were so proud of themselves and their achievements they'd think the rumour was some heretical traitor spreading dissention. I imagine the other Primarch's thought processes upon hearing the story that Alpharius was the Warmaster would be something like:

Horus - "There's this ridiculous rumour that the Emperor has raised a Warmaster to command us all and even more ridiculous, this rumour says that he raised my youngest brother Alpharius to be Warmaster ahead of me. I simply don't believe the Emperor would do this as I'm his favourite. It can't be true as there's no proper evidence."

Guilliman - "Alpharius is simply too ill disciplined to be the Warmaster. Also, where is the evidence? The orders given to me make sense as they suit my Legion's skills. I don't think Alpharius would know how to handle my Legion. What a stupid idea."

Angron - "Grr, argh, murder, death, kill." :biggrin: (Sorry couldn't resist)

Perturabo - "What a ridiculous idea, however in the long run I don't particularly care who's giving the orders as long as my Legion is honoured for their achievements alongside the other Legions, my skills for designing and building things aren't used for horrible things any more and I'm getting some recognition for building the Emperor's palace."

Magnus - "The rumour is ridiculous, however I'm happy as finally someone appreciates mine and my Legions skills and the witch hunt against us has ended. My Legion is free to continue it's studies."

Fulgrim - "I'm the perfect Primarch, why would the Emperor choose anyone but me? What a stupid rumour."

Sanguinius - "I don't know what to believe however the Imperium is stronger than ever and my Legion's dark secret is safe. As long as the Emperor is alive I'll support whoever him and whoever leads the Imperium's forces if it isn't the Emperor."

Night Haunter - "I think it's a stupid rumour but I'm happy that my Legion is no longer criticized for using it's preferred tactics. I enjoy working alongside Angron as the Imperium's ultimate terror fleet. No xenos will dare stand against our combined forces." (I love the idea of the World Eaters and Night Lords working together to fight things like the Hrud, the Dark Eldar and Orks and other enemies which cause massive terror in their enemies. It would be like fighting fire with fire :grin

Leman Russ - "What a stupid rumour, I follow the Emperor's orders as his executioner and he uses me well to that effect."

etc etc.

I think Alpharius/Omegon would be brilliant at exploiting the other Primarchs and Legions to their best effect by having Alpha Legion marines within the other Legions to find out what they want, whether they're happy or annoyed and then taking measures to keep them happy. 

The view we get of them in Legion and then in Deliverance Lost really impressed me with how effective the Alpha Legion are at infiltrating the other Legions and if this talent was used in a beneficial manner for the Imperium, A/O would be the ultimate puppet master getting the other Primarchs and Legions dancing to his tune to the benefit of all mankind, while at the same time making sure none of the other Primarchs believe the ridiculous rumours that he was in fact Warmaster.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> Snip


Why do you even bother?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Why do you even bother?


Well, I figured there were some potential wins here:

1. He leaves the thread. I think this is pretty much the best option.

2. He ignores me and continues to sling the crap he makes up. Proves that he's...who he is, if you know what I mean. More, I guess.

3. He somehow magically backs himself up. My understanding of WH40k flips on its head. This is pretty much equivalent to scientists discovering the sun is actually a large ball of cookies 'n cream, but, hey, it _could_ happen.

I'm almost sorta hoping for 3.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, it's a point of integrity. He asked for sources, which is fair in a debate situation, and I provided them. Blowing him off just because he's the way he is would be...weak. How could I expect him to reciprocate something I am unwilling to do (not that I expect him to because his arguments came straight from his ass, but hey...).

Also it took me like 5 minutes to get all my sources.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

The relatively sane part of me would be Rogal Dorn, but the person inside me who knows total fear would inspire "compliance" whether the populace believed so or not I would choose the Night Haunter.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I totally agree with your conclusions which is why I put in special conditions that his orders would appear to come from the Emperor directly to get round this. I think the advantage to this is that there would be no jealousy issue either as no-one would know that Alpharius/Omegon were actually Warmaster as the other Primarchs would think their orders were coming from the Emperor directly. Exactly the sneakiness we'd expect from A/O as well :biggrin:


If the orders appear to be coming from the Emperor, Alpharius isn't a Warmaster. Not having an official Warmaster defeats most of the point of having a Warmaster, which was that the Emperor could retire to his webway project without being bothered. If people think the Emperor's still in charge then they're going to keep trying to get in touch with him. Maybe the Alpha Legion can head of most of those attempts but remember that the Warmaster doesn't just command the Astartes but the entire military might of the Imperium, like Mars. Mars is very close to Terra, you don't think Kelbor-Hal might try to get in touch with the Emperor directly? Or what about Magnus, he can talk to the Emperor directly across space. How is the Alpa Legion going to intercept that? All in all the Alpha Legion would be so busy faking the Emperor's continued presence that they'd be quickly found out when there ability to campaign disappeared.



zerachiel76 said:


> Night Haunter - "I think it's a stupid rumour but I'm happy that my Legion is no longer criticized for using it's preferred tactics.


For the record: the Night Haunter and the Night Lords were never official criticized, sanctioned or otherwise punished for their behaviour. At no point did the Emperor show anything but approval for their actions.



> I think Alpharius/Omegon would be brilliant at exploiting the other Primarchs and Legions to their best effect by having Alpha Legion marines within the other Legions to find out what they want, whether they're happy or annoyed and then taking measures to keep them happy.


Alpharius is a smart guy (though other Primarchs are just as smart) but he's never really shown himself to be a psychological manipulator of any real skill. Many of his brothers true motives are hidden even from themselves until they are exploited in their fall. You are expecting Alpharius to know more about his brothers (who he's only know for a couple decades and even then not personally) than the Emperor knew about his sons (who he crafted for the gene up). 



> The view we get of them in Legion and then in Deliverance Lost really impressed me with how effective the Alpha Legion are at infiltrating the other Legions


I highly doubt that the Alpha Legion possesses the ability to infiltrate agents into all the other Legions, let alone get those agents into a position to be able to determine the psyche of their Primarchs. Remember that the infiltration of the Raven Guard took place in the complete chaos of Istvaan, an unprecedented opportunity. Other Legions have numerous language, behaviour and cultural quirks that would make them more difficult to infiltrate. And also remember that one of the Alpha Legion operatives comes very close to blowing his cover in the Raven Guard.

And of course you're assuming the Emperor would be okay with the Alpha Legion infiltrating all the other Legions (and non-Legion military bodies). And why would he be?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinq do you think it was the Sigilite that authorized the assassination attempts (pre-Mshen) on Curze? 

Similar to what you stated, from what I have read the Emperor (from the first moment he met Curze) only praised his methodology of conquest. He told curze that his world's were the epitome of imperial perfection, obedience through retribution bringing forth unparalleled productivity. 

I just find it odd that the Emperor would kill off one of his own sons, I believe that post of the crusade he would have had them act as governors of sectors, or act as overarching police/federal enforcement forces.

I truly believe the sigilite had his own plans for the primarchs, or saw them as opposition to his own visions of the imperial future. Do I believe he wanted to betray the Emperor? No. I believe the sigilite loved the Emperor above all things (loyalty), however out of that extreme loyalty I do believe it motivated the sigilite to do what he perceived as best for the Emperor...even if the emperor did not know of it and or authorize it.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> MEQinq do you think it was the Sigilite that authorized the assassination attempts (pre-Mshen) on Curze?
> 
> Similar to what you stated, from what I have read the Emperor (from the first moment he met Curze) only praised his methodology of conquest. He told curze that his world's were the epitome of imperial perfection, obedience through retribution bringing forth unparalleled productivity.
> 
> I just find it odd that the Emperor would kill off one of his own sons, I believe that post of the crusade he would have had them act as governors of sectors, or act as overarching police/federal enforcement forces.


For once lux your theory isn't completely batcrap crazy. Well even before the heresy Kurz began acting traitorous and then there was the body palace thing.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Magnus.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> For the record: the Night Haunter and the Night Lords were never official criticized, sanctioned or otherwise punished for their behaviour. At no point did the Emperor show anything but approval for their actions.


From Index Astartes: "Appalled by his sons grotesque acts, the Emperor was forced by repeated protests to call Night Haunter to account, demanding his presence for a full inquiry into his Legions' methods."

He wasn't quiet damned yet, but being forced to drop everything you're doing and head back to Terra is a sanction of sorts.
~~~~~~`

Lux, I'm still awaiting those citations of yours.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> From Index Astartes: "Appalled by his sons grotesque acts, the Emperor was forced by repeated protests to call Night Haunter to account, demanding his presence for a full inquiry into his Legions' methods."
> 
> He wasn't quiet damned yet, but being forced to drop everything you're doing and head back to Terra is a sanction of sorts.
> ~~~~~~`
> ...



And i am still waiting for your citations hailene, fictitious sources mean nothing where are the objective citations? So far you have provided none.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

So that's option 2 Lux is taking.

Surprise surprise. 

hailene could start quoting the tea leaves and he'd still have provided more valid sources than Lux ever has.

I'd love to know what Lux considers a list of approved sources but then again that would require him to give a straight forward answer which is like asking pig to fly. Better yet how about you provide some yourself and set an example as H tried to do. Oh wait that's right you never have and never will.

Troll be trolling.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I wonder if there's some rule he's breaking. After all, he just puked up some random facts and refuses to back them up. Potentially that could lead to misinforming people about the reality of the fluff.

That has to be against the rules, right?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Same dude he picked, assuming I knew what he knew at the time he made that choice. Before he went entirely bat-shit, Horus seemed like a good choice. 

Barring that, Sanguinius, Dorn, or Guilliman. Probably in that order.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> If the orders appear to be coming from the Emperor, Alpharius isn't a Warmaster. Not having an official Warmaster defeats most of the point of having a Warmaster, which was that the Emperor could retire to his webway project without being bothered. If people think the Emperor's still in charge then they're going to keep trying to get in touch with him. Maybe the Alpha Legion can head of most of those attempts but remember that the Warmaster doesn't just command the Astartes but the entire military might of the Imperium, like Mars. Mars is very close to Terra, you don't think Kelbor-Hal might try to get in touch with the Emperor directly? Or what about Magnus, he can talk to the Emperor directly across space. How is the Alpa Legion going to intercept that? All in all the Alpha Legion would be so busy faking the Emperor's continued presence that they'd be quickly found out when there ability to campaign disappeared.


I was thinking of the Warmaster in the strategic sense. The one who plans the campaigns and dispatches the legions to their various objectives. Since Alpharius would be making these decisions then he would be Warmaster even if the orders appeared to be coming from the Emperor.

I agree with your point about Magnus. I've been thinking about this point since I first posted my idea and this is where my idea falls down. I think Magnus would need to be brought into the facade. My plan would be for Alpharius to buy Magnus' silence by offering him what he wants - the freedom to continue his research and modus operandi without a witchhunt against him and his Legion. Such was Magnus' vanity and certainty that what he was doing was right, I think that Alpharius offered him a deal for his silence that he'd take it. Even going so far as to accept Alpha Legion Librarians to train with the Thousand Sons. Magnus may see this as a positive sign that his knowledge and power was being accepted by the Warmaster himself. If the deal was accepted then Magnus and the Thousand Sons only had everything to gain. No more having to defend himself against Mortarion, Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn who hated the idea of Librarians and he and his Legion could operate on their own far from any prying eyes apart from the Legions who were more sympathetic to him and his Legion.

Kelbor Hal is a different matter. As we don't know exactly whether he had a direct line to the Emperor or had to use a proxy such as the Sigillite, I'm a bit stuck. If he had a direct line then he might need to be brought in. If he went via a proxy then the contact methods could be intercepted. That being said, I didn't think that the Warmaster did command the Mechanicum although I could be wrong.



MEQinc said:


> For the record: the Night Haunter and the Night Lords were never official criticized, sanctioned or otherwise punished for their behaviour. At no point did the Emperor show anything but approval for their actions.


As Hailene said, Curze was sanctioned prior to the Heresy. Index Astartes II states he was called to account.



MEQinc said:


> Alpharius is a smart guy (though other Primarchs are just as smart) but he's never really shown himself to be a psychological manipulator of any real skill. Many of his brothers true motives are hidden even from themselves until they are exploited in their fall. You are expecting Alpharius to know more about his brothers (who he's only know for a couple decades and even then not personally) than the Emperor knew about his sons (who he crafted for the gene up).


I'm only expecting Alpharius to know what his brothers are thinking due to extensive spy networks implanted in their Legions. The Emperor has gone to plan the Webway project so Alpharius would now need to find as much as he could about his brothers and he'd do what the Alpha Legion do best - spying.



MEQinc said:


> I highly doubt that the Alpha Legion possesses the ability to infiltrate agents into all the other Legions, let alone get those agents into a position to be able to determine the psyche of their Primarchs. Remember that the infiltration of the Raven Guard took place in the complete chaos of Istvaan, an unprecedented opportunity. Other Legions have numerous language, behaviour and cultural quirks that would make them more difficult to infiltrate. And also remember that one of the Alpha Legion operatives comes very close to blowing his cover in the Raven Guard.


This point came up in another thread so I'm glad it's come up here. I agree some of the other Legions would be more difficult than others. However such is the skill of Alpha Legion that I believe that given a few years as sleepers then these operatives would be successful in hacking the Legions communication methods. Regarding the languages, behaviour and cultural quirks I think the Alpha Legion would use their Omophagea. Quietly assassinate someone who has the skills needed, eat them and hey presto. I agree this infiltration would take a while but if we're changing the whole set up then its possible the Heresy could have been prevented or at least delayed or minimised. Therefore I think the Alpha Legion would have had longer to prepare and infiltrate.

The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Death Guard and of course the World Eaters would present their own problems but I'm thinking facial implants to disguise as the Space Wolves, face transplants for the Blood Angels, cosmetic non functioning Butchers Nails for the World Eaters for appearances sake and I'm not sure about the Death Guard due to the poisons - I'll come back to it  



MEQinc said:


> And of course you're assuming the Emperor would be okay with the Alpha Legion infiltrating all the other Legions (and non-Legion military bodies). And why would he be?


Since the Emperor was concentrating on his Webway, as long as the crusade continued the way he wanted and Alpharius could justify what he was doing then I don't see why he wouldn't be ok with it. Again we don't know for sure but since the Emperor was non contactable much of the time then I think he'd be happy.

This is just my theory and I'm trying to cover any holes discovered as much as I can. Hope this is ok? I'm having fun expounding on my theory :grin:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

none of the above, he should have overlooked his sons and chosen that little known chap Geoff "the warmaster" Smith who applied in writing for the position and had an awesome CV,went through all the aptitude tests with flying colours and had a blistering interview with HR, only to get overlooked for someone who "related to someone who worked there".
And as always with these family run companies, the son gets sick of the "boss" and wants to show that he can do it on his own, the old man wants to teach junior a lesson about how experience is everything and as always happens in these things, two sons dead and father ends up a half dead corpse strapped to a golden chair.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Guiliman would have made a far better warmaster. Addicted to planning and logistics. All the planning and minutiae was what soured Horus on the position with his own words, he was a warrior at heart and wanted to lead grand attacks in the field.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Guiliman would have made a far better warmaster. Addicted to planning and logistics. All the planning and minutiae was what soured Horus on the position with his own words, he was a warrior at heart and wanted to lead grand attacks in the field.


I almost agree with you. The problem is that many of the Primarchs thoughts of him were largely of either disgust or envy. Also I believe regardless what was written by our mighty authors that he is a self obsessed Primarch. Even going as far as Fulgrim, he believed he deserved his own empire ruling a giant amount of worlds. When his father was forced to live on the Golden Throne he wanted to be a regent, and then head regent of Terra. Almost as self loving as Fulgrim (ok maybe not almost, but up there with Angron and Lorgar in self love.)

His own brother Russ (most obviously) and the Khan as well as partial "disobedience" by Dorn.....Ugh, in conclusion the warmaster would die faster than Horus if it was the Primarch of the Ultramarines. Lorgar added to Angron with a twist of ANY other Primarch would crush the Ultramarines like the clones and bible(codex) worshipers they are.

I do however like your point about his incredible planning and execution....problem is the majority of all Primarchs disliked mr.Guilliman.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah that's the main problem with Guilliman as Warmaster. The position is a popularity-competition and only two guys are generally well-liked. It's Horus and Sanguinius. Anyone else and things goes awry from the get go. I mean think Magnus as Warmaster f.ex., then I see hilarity ensue. Or Dorn he has a problem he can't lie even when it's good for him. I mean such people tends to be awful friends, having such a guy as your brother even worse. Or we can turn it around. I don't think Russ would have been a good Primarch as he is basically a bully and Magnus would then be locked in a basement somewhere. Or Perturbo, well he was too envious of Dorn anyway and would have spent his time as Warmaster trying to undermine him. And the more unconvensional Primarches would be in hot water with Guilliman as a Primarch. And lets see Corax, the Salamander-Primarch, the Lion, all roleplayers. That rarely the captain of the team. I can only come up with one example where it happened, and that was Craig Rivet with the Sabres.


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## son of azurman (Sep 19, 2010)

i personally think vulcan,not cause im in love with him well maybe i am but thats not the point, these are my reasons.
1he was a calm and level headed thinker who did not let personal thoughts influence his decisions.
2.he was heavily respected by all corners of the imperium and seen as the ideal space marine.
3. no matter how strange or hoe disliked his decisions were there was always a clever and good strategy behind it leading to victories.
4.he wasnt overly attached to his dad like horus was which lead to him feeling abandoned.
5. no matter the costs or risks he would not let innocents be left to their doom which followed on with the salamanders all the way to Armageddon.

plus lets face it hes a bad ass who cant die


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

hailene said:


> I wonder if there's some rule he's breaking. After all, he just puked up some random facts and refuses to back them up. Potentially that could lead to misinforming people about the reality of the fluff.
> 
> That has to be against the rules, right?


Unfortunately not. And I wouldn't all them facts either.


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## LordIchor (Jun 20, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> Guilliman would not be a great choice. Just think of the consequences had Guilliman been seduced by the power of being Warmaster.


Shame, means vanilla codex could be vanilla rather than 'codex ultramarine' with all the "epic" battles the ultramarines were involved in that the citadel marine-heads cream themselves over (read: matt ward)

Would be better to see fulgrim at the head... Just because


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Same dude he picked, assuming I knew what he knew at the time he made that choice


According to the OP, you're making the choice with 20/20 hindsight (or foreknowledge if you prefer) of the Horus Heresy...in that case, I don't think you'd pick Horus unless you think every other primarch would be just as (or more) susceptible to corruption. 



> Barring that, Sanguinius, Dorn, or Guilliman. Probably in that order.


Despite his popularity and prowess, Sanguinius had a major flaw (the seed of the Red Thirst)...perhaps if he hadn't died, he would've become less of a noble angel and more of a berserk vampire. Guilliman was just as arrogant and ambitious as Horus, but without the daddy issues. Dorn is the safest pick I think


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I was thinking of the Warmaster in the strategic sense. The one who plans the campaigns and dispatches the legions to their various objectives. Since Alpharius would be making these decisions then he would be Warmaster even if the orders appeared to be coming from the Emperor.


I understood what you meant, I was just pointing out that the position of Warmaster is just as much political as strategic.



> My plan would be for Alpharius to buy Magnus' silence by offering him what he wants - the freedom to continue his research and modus operandi without a witchhunt against him and his Legion. Such was Magnus' vanity and certainty that what he was doing was right, I think that Alpharius offered him a deal for his silence that he'd take it.


But since Magnus doesn't think he's doing anything wrong why does he need to make a deal? Why should he have to help Alpharius to get what he deserves? Plus, the Warmaster's approval should indicate the Emperor's approval. Which I think Magnus would be interested in making official (see below), meaning he'll get in contact with the Emperor. Meaning that Alpharius' contradiction of Nikea will be exposed. Meaning Alpharius will be boned.



> Magnus may see this as a positive sign that his knowledge and power was being accepted by the Warmaster himself.


But not officially, since officially there is no Warmaster.



> No more having to defend himself against Mortarion, Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn who hated the idea of Librarians


Except that since Alpharius' condoning of Magnus is a secret but Nikea remains a public act, Magnus must still face the condemnation of his brothers who still have every reason to believe that they were right.



> If he went via a proxy then the contact methods could be intercepted.


I think it's pretty safe to say he went through a proxy. But then, so are millions (if not billions) of other people. That's a *lot *of proxies the Alpha Legion have to intercept. Do they have the man-power to do that, infiltrate the Legions and still appear to be an effective military force?



> That being said, I didn't think that the Warmaster did command the Mechanicum although I could be wrong.


Maybe command was the wrong word. Horus and Kelbor-Hal seem to have worked pretty closely during Horus' run as Warmaster (that's how he got turned) and it certainly makes sense that the Warmaster would have to be involved pretty closely with the guys responsible for making and shipping his weapons.



> However such is the skill of Alpha Legion that I believe that given a few years as sleepers then these operatives would be successful in hacking the Legions communication methods.


Certainly possible. There is going to be a period before those operatives are operational though and in that period (potentially a couple years as you point out) the Alpha Legion are flying blind. 



> Quietly assassinate someone who has the skills needed, eat them and hey presto.


You do realize that you just suggested murdering perfectly loyal soldiers of the Imperium right? And cannibalizing them! Just so that the Alpha Legion has the opportunity (not necessarily the ability) to infiltrate a completely loyal Legion so as to manipulate it into continuing to be completely loyal. Just... no.



> The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Death Guard and of course the World Eaters would present their own problems but I'm thinking facial implants to disguise as the Space Wolves, face transplants for the Blood Angels, cosmetic non functioning Butchers Nails for the World Eaters for appearances sake and I'm not sure about the Death Guard due to the poisons - I'll come back to it


The problem with faking these Legions isn't how much you look like them (that's easy) it's how much you think like them; whether or not you can fake their tactics convincingly. Can someone without the Nails keep pace with the World Eaters? An Alpha Legion infiltrator almost shows his hand to the Raven Guard by using a move they're not trained in during a combat simulation. Can they keep themselves from doing similar things within these Legions, or others whose tactics (down to the individual level) are likely to be very different from what the operatives themselves ere trained to do? Especially in the face of suicidal orders? A World Eater (and probably a Space Wolf and Blood Angel to a lesser extent) wouldn't question an order to charge into the face of overwhelming opposition, they wouldn't even hesitate. But that's not the way an Alpha Legionnaire is brainwashed to think, so they will hesitate. The operatives are going to run into this problem in every single Legion. At some point they are going to be expected to do something that they were never trained to do (or were trained not to do). 



> Since the Emperor was concentrating on his Webway, as long as the crusade continued the way he wanted and Alpharius could justify what he was doing then I don't see why he wouldn't be ok with it. Again we don't know for sure but since the Emperor was non contactable much of the time then I think he'd be happy.


The problem is that your rational for the Emperor choosing Alpharius is that he knows Alpharius will be able to keep tabs on his brothers, meaning that the Emperor has to explicitly approve of this infiltration (and now, assassination) before he picks the Warmaster. I just don't see him being willing to do that. 



> This is just my theory and I'm trying to cover any holes discovered as much as I can. Hope this is ok? I'm having fun expounding on my theory :grin:


Of course, but in order to develop a solid theory and cover any holes, someone has to show you those holes. That's all I'm doing, asking questions.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

Without the benefit of hindsight, most likely Sanguinius for his loyalty. But _with_ that benefit, it would have to be Roboute for his loyalty *and* leadership. The third would have to be vulkan, for his loyalty and _compassion_.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NetherMessenger said:


> Without the benefit of hindsight, most likely Sanguinius for his loyalty. .


Without the benefit of hindsight, why would you have considered Sanguinius more loyal than Horus?


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

Because even Horus admits as such.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I personally don't understand why people think anyone else would have been better for Warmaster than Horus. The problem most people have is that they associate Horus as a pure traitor, and he was the GREATEST of primarchs by far. Chosen by the greatest being in the galaxy to be Warmaster. There was a reason for it. The influence of Chaos is too powerful for ANY primarch to avoid. Chaos warps the body and mind. ANY Primarch that had been tainted by Chaos could have been turned into an agent of Chaos. 

Again, Chaos changes, manipulates what it touches and there is no cure. Even to think you can fight the manipulation of chaos is ludicris, if you think about how chaos can manipulate the flesh, I think it would be easier for Chaos to manipulate the electronic impulses in the brain or even the brain itself. When thought of this way, I think it is very telling that discussing who wouldn't turn to choas when tainted is very unproductive unless they have Grey Knight invincibility.

One could say that perhaps a better Warmaster would have been one with less influence over the legions. But by playing Devil's advocate, A Warmaster that lacks the will to drive or manipulate the legions to his will would have slowed or halted the Great Crusade. Horus was that driving force that would have been able to drive ALL the legions to his will, however he was also the same force able to create enough strength to devastate the Imperium the way it did during the Heresy.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

How about this...I wonder if a Pariah could have been the best? A trust worthy one, of course.

We know from the Ravenor series that a psyker can't mentally communicate with a Blank, so it might stave off the more...seductive qualities of Chaos. Or manipulative.

Just gotta find one with the capability to lead, to be trust worthy, and somehow earn the respect of at least some of the Primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NetherMessenger said:


> Because even Horus admits as such.


Does he? If you're referring to the _False Gods_ quote, here it is:


"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once that victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talents or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his..."

No mention of his loyalty.

Sanguinius is dismissed as a suitable candidate for Warmaster in several Heresy novels due to being "too ethereal" or too "aloof", and I agree with such conclusions. That, and the amount of self-doubt that would have consumed him if he was appointed. Look at how much Horus struggled with the position (_Horus Rising_ and _False Gods_) despite his gargantuan arrogance and ambition. Sanguinius would have floundered. And of course, his dark flaw could have been easily manipulated and exploited by Chaos.



ckcrawford said:


> I personally don't understand why people think anyone else would have been better for Warmaster than Horus. The problem most people have is that they associate Horus as a pure traitor, and he was the GREATEST of primarchs by far. Chosen by the greatest being in the galaxy to be Warmaster. There was a reason for it. The influence of Chaos is too powerful for ANY primarch to avoid. Chaos warps the body and mind. ANY Primarch that had been tainted by Chaos could have been turned into an agent of Chaos.
> 
> Again, Chaos changes, manipulates what it touches and there is no cure. Even to think you can fight the manipulation of chaos is ludicris, if you think about how chaos can manipulate the flesh, I think it would be easier for Chaos to manipulate the electronic impulses in the brain or even the brain itself. When thought of this way, I think it is very telling that discussing who wouldn't turn to choas when tainted is very unproductive unless they have Grey Knight invincibility.
> 
> One could say that perhaps a better Warmaster would have been one with less influence over the legions. But by playing Devil's advocate, A Warmaster that lacks the will to drive or manipulate the legions to his will would have slowed or halted the Great Crusade. Horus was that driving force that would have been able to drive ALL the legions to his will, however he was also the same force able to create enough strength to devastate the Imperium the way it did during the Heresy.


Well said.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Let me say that I support Horus as the most likely Primarch, by far, to be elected Warmaster. It just makes sense. His record speaks for himself, his charisma, and the generally strong, positive relationships he shared with many of his brothers.

But the topic said we're playing with hindsight. While Horus may have been the safe bet, we have the fortune of knowing that he will fall (and I assume that while we know we will fall, for the purposes of the discussion we can not prevent his fall, at least so long as we keep the variables the same IE elect Horus warmaster).

So know that Horus, while the most attractive candidate, is doomed to fail (for the purposes of this discussion). I mean, technically, at this point, picking Angron is better since he has the ever so slightest chance of actually succeeding as opposed to our theoretical Horus that is guaranteed to fail, right?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Let me say that I support Horus as the most likely Primarch, by far, to be elected Warmaster. It just makes sense. His record speaks for himself, his charisma, and the generally strong, positive relationships he shared with many of his brothers.
> 
> But the topic said we're playing with hindsight. While Horus may have been the safe bet, we have the fortune of knowing that he will fall (and I assume that while we know we will fall, for the purposes of the discussion we can not prevent his fall, at least so long as we keep the variables the same IE elect Horus warmaster).
> 
> So know that Horus, while the most attractive candidate, is doomed to fail (for the purposes of this discussion). I mean, technically, at this point, picking Angron is better since he has the ever so slightest chance of actually succeeding as opposed to our theoretical Horus that is guaranteed to fail, right?


True. But if Horus, the best candidate for selection as Warmaster by far, failed, it doesn't provide much hope for any of the others!


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

But it's not much fun to say that the only person who could in any circumstance have been warmaster is, the warmaster. Where's the fun in that?

So perhaps we might discuss, if any of the other primarchs had been chosen, how would the Chaos Gods have tried to corrupt them? And would it have been harder for any of them?

Would for instance Vulkan, Sanguinius or Roboute have changed as quickly as Horus? I'd imagine Conrad, Perturabo, Angron and Lorgar deffecting the quickest.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

NetherMessenger said:


> But it's not much fun to say that the only person who could in any circumstance have been warmaster is, the warmaster. Where's the fun in that?
> 
> So perhaps we might discuss, if any of the other primarchs had been chosen, how would the Chaos Gods have tried to corrupt them? And would it have been harder for any of them?
> 
> Would for instance Vulkan, Sanguinius or Roboute have changed as quickly as Horus? I'd imagine Conrad, Perturabo, Angron and Lorgar deffecting the quickest.


The whole discussion is fun in its own way to entertain ideas. But frankly, I think allowing people to truly believe someone else would have been warmaster is pretty ludicrus. 

I'm not a big fan of discussing Sanguinus. I think CotE hit the nail on the head when he explained how the Crusade would have demoralized him. 

But then lets discuss the primarchs with good records. We have Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. I think an interesting idea would to think about Dorn. Dorn's confrontation with Curze while putting down a rebellion showed two different things in my eyes. Firstly it showed the warped way Curze looked at loyalty and the crusade. Secondly, I think it also showed Dorn's stern and defiant attitude towards that that went against the Emperor's Will, the Imperial Idea, and essentially... propaganda. For example, the closure of the Librarian order didn't mean the Emperor was going to abandon any use of sorcery or tampering with the Warp. When we see the Emperor's future plans with the Imperial Webway we can see that he was using that as a way of control over unpredicatable forces. Did Dorn see it the same way? Or did he look at sorcery as an Evil? It's been said that Dorn's mind is like a "fortress," "Impenatrable." (SP) Logically, he was good at keeping the Imperial Dream protected and defiantely close minded at accepting change. If the Emperor had been able to finish the Webway and then shown his sons a bit more about the plans of the future, at least Horus would have had an open mind to keep on following the Emperor without being surprised and/or disgusted. His meeting with the Interex displays Horus' open-mindedness to incorporate advancement for the future of the Imperium. So while Dorn basically became Warmaster during the rebellion of Horus, it can be said that it was only due to the circumstance of the Imperial State. There was a need for protection of the Strict Imperial Way. Any open-mindedness that would have expanded the state of being in the Imperium was thrown away. Dorn was never meant to expand the Imperium. Despite the current state of the Imperium, at least Guilliman was able to accept change and promote a new Imperium.

Guilliman is interesting because he represents change to the Imperium. Would he have made a good Warmaster? I think Guilliman represents dramatic change, and even as far as saying a flux of change. The state of the Imperium has gone constant change in order to fight it's different enemies, including itself at times. Though it has kept the Imperium alive, his dream of the Imperum was not the Emperor's Dream. Thats why I would say that he changed the Imperial Way the moment he made himself Ruler of the Imperium. He destroyed the legacy and capability of the Legions (bad or good). 

The Lion is an interesting primarch. It would indeed be interesting to know what the Emperor thought of the Lion as secret as he was. If we looked at the Emperor in the way that he knows more about the Primarchs than they probably think he knows, then I would think there is a good reason why the Emperor did not appoint the Lion to that position. The fact that he lived on a tainted world signals a big no no for me. I believe it contributes to a few flaws that takes him off of being a potential candidate. The one motif that we see with the Lion throughout the heresy is his uncertainty with essentially everybody. He trusted the wrong people, and distrusted the right ones. On one hand he distrusts his legion and on the other he trusts Perturabo. On one hand it is hinted he knows there's something wrong with Luther after he attempted to kill the Lion... it even hints that he knew the attempt... and yet, he allowed him to live and prosper with recruitment. On the other hand he cuts of Namiel's head for holding himself with the Emperor's Edict. The amusing thing about all his actions is that there are justified explanations to account for them. Yet, it all leads to the destruction and dishonor of his legion. It seems like his actions are for the lack of better words... warped.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

Angron - casualty rate of SM in first few weeks - TOTAL


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## Bigus Dikus (Aug 11, 2013)

Russ - because he didn't want that role


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## Bearer.of.the.Word (Aug 11, 2013)

I think the main part of being warmaster would be the people aspect, afterall Horus didn't manage every battle, so it is not their skill as a fighter but as a manager.
That said I cant really speak of the best idea so this will just be a rant trashing all possible candidates.
1st-The lion is just a savage armoured in honour, i would say he lacks the finesse required to marshal 18 god princes each with very different ideas.
2nd-X
3rd-Fulgrim is a good candidate, but I think he would be just to aloof, plus giving the role to someone so egotistical would have created another heresy anyway.
4th-Perturabo in no way has the charisma required for the role, plus i think he might be a bit to rigid to use his brothers to their best potential.
5th-Cant really speak of the Khan as I don't know much about him, but i think he might be to uncultured for his brothers to respect his decisions.
6th-Russ is a twat.
7th-Dorn is far to straight forward a thinker, that and I think he would be unable to really use his brothers in the best way (Curze for instance).
8th-Night Haunter knows the futility of his actions as he can see the death of the imperium, that and the whole insanity problem.
9th-Sanguinius is flawed by paranoia about his own shortcomings, so would be to inclined maybe doubt his own descisions.
10th-Ferrus in no way has the required people skills to lead primarchs.
11th-X
12th-ANGRON obvious problems.
13th-Roboute again does not have the skills required.
14th-Mortarion I know practically nothing about, but what I know is that he is very distant and so would not be a good candidate.
15th-Magnus constantly underestimated his brothers, he would end up doing stuff like senf=ding two legions to eliminate a barbarian planet because without sorcery how can anything be achieved? that and he is not well liked enough.
16th-Horus, probably the best choice, but look where that went.
17th-The Urizen is a priest not a warlord.
18th-Vulkan (same as Khan)
19th-Corax, I think Corax may be to much of a battle field leader, but again i dont really know much.
20th-Twins, far to secretive, not liked, arrived to late, take to long to achieve goals, untrustable.


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## midas12 (Aug 12, 2013)

joebauerek said:


> This is a tough one... depends on if the chaos gods have a part to play.
> 
> If not obviously horus was the right choice....
> 
> ...


Magnus would be good IF primarchs like mortorion, russ, and logar weren't against psychics 

russ was to unruly and barbaric 

Sanguinus had gene deformations 

my pick would be either dorn or vulkcan dorn because he was an unstoppble force while vulcan showed compassion in everything he did


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Actually Vulkan is sounding like a good choice

I honestly don't think Horus is the best choice. He has major "daddy issues". If daddy doesn't tell him everything he's planning or stay in constant contact with him, he feels betrayed and abandoned


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Sanguinius definitely the common people love the guy they even named a holiday after him you really have to have earned there respect and love to get that. If only the flaws in his genes could be cured then he be perfect. Not just as warmaster but as heir to the emperor should something happen

If not him then Guilliman he is not only a great military leader but also a great civilian leader/politician. he will be to keep any strife between civilian and military leaders in check.

I would say Russ but sadly he far too much warrior. and not every primarch gets along with him sure he gets shit done but you need more than a big sword to lead


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