# Chaos Termies RAGE!



## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

*Dont know if this is the correct place to begin this, but....

WHY OH WHY do chaos termies only have combi weapons? i know this must have been raged about elsewhere before, but it kills me somewhat. Fluff wise, termies are the hardest badasses that a chapter has (other than say dreadnoughts and chapter masters (USUALLY IN FRICKIN TERMIE ARMOUR!!!)).
How come they don't have access to any throne damned weapon they want, for khornes sake im fairly certain some beefed up dark god preaching termie could carry a damn battlecannon if he really wanted to...how come they're stuck with pathetic combi weapons? can anyone really answer that question, without re-reading their answer, and thinking...yeh but they're termies...

:suicide:*


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

If you really don't like them, I have a simple solution - Just don't take them

If you want firepower on termie's, take 10 and 2 Reaper Autocannon's. If you want a Battlecannon, take a Defiler.

A Battlecannon is so massive in size that it can only be mounted on Vehicles or Weapons Platforms specially designed to carry it. Termie's are strong, but not strong enough to carry a Battlecannon into battle. Besides, he would only get one shot off - the recoil would probably send him into low-orbit :laugh:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Relax, take a breath, smile 

Chaos terminators in traditional fluff take only weapons available to preheresy marine. So combi weapons are the norm. Thats why there are no assault cannons and you are limited to the slightly stronger reaper auto cannon.

I suspect that a new CSM codex will restore them to thier true dominant postion in the codex. Bu I would not expect any storm shields for them.


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## Broken (Dec 7, 2008)

Yes, it's called realism and balance.

Granted, Chaos Terminators really aren't up to scratch in the current Codex, they still have access to weapons like Reaper Autocannons and Heavy Flamers - the kind of weapons a Dreadnought has. Looking at the models, you're not getting a Battle Cannon onto a Terminator. I mean, the Terminator Armour still provides incredible armour, built-in Power Fists and the ability to deep strike.

I think you need to re-read your post without thinking _"yeah, but they're termies..."_


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Don't misunderstand, i love terminators. For one, they're called terminators. just bothers me somewhat and i needed to vent. They plunder goodies from marines ect..all the time and should be the most badass termies in the game (who else has dark gods gifting them like our bad boys?) Anyway yeah, heres looking forward to 6th Ed.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

one word for ya Termicide

Anyway I think the combi weapon thing sux too but really the SM variant is still just as bad unless they are assault termies. 

Anyway thats why said screw the gunz Im all Lightning Claws


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Chaos gets the Terminators with the most firepower in the GAME. Seriously. Lascannon, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon? Fires these while on the move, effectively adding (On average) four inches to their range? Yes, it's still a Terminator (2+, 5++, looks like a Chaos Terminator for sure). You know what I'm talkin' about. He's called the Obliterator, and he's gonna break you in half with his GUNS.

Midnight


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

You're complaining about access to combi weapons and base 30 point terminators? Terminators that have many customization options and can take auto cannons? Really?

Show me loyalists that can get anything like that and we'll talk. The only thing we get above and beyond that's any better is Storm Shields.

QQ nub, and all that.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Chaos gets the Terminators with the most firepower in the GAME. Seriously. Lascannon, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon? Fires these while on the move, effectively adding (On average) four inches to their range? Yes, it's still a Terminator (2+, 5++, looks like a Chaos Terminator for sure). You know what I'm talkin' about. He's called the Obliterator, and he's gonna break you in half with his GUNS.
> 
> Midnight


Yeah the oblitz are badasses. I can give that one two ya. I do have another chaos termi box to build and I am gonna do them with the standard build rather than convert them over with more Lightning claws. I just don't see a reason to bring more than 5...

 I want more Oblitz


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> I am gonna do them with the standard build rather than convert them over with more Lightning claws. I just don't see a reason to bring more than 5...


If you need to use up some points, then what else do you spend your Elites choices on? Take two Chaos Dreadnoughts? 20 Possessed? Or do you go to Fast Attack and buy 30 Raptors? Maybe a bunch of Spawn? Nah, you just take Terminators. They're the best of a bad bunch. Troops, and HQ are where Chaos excel (If indeed they can be described as excelling at all).

Midnight


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Chaos Terminators are fine as they are, there a fairly fluffy unit with the equipment they have, they just lightening Claws added into the kits, and maybe options for Daemon weapons and relic blades. 

But apart from that their fine, a standard Chaos Terminator squad (no upgrades apart from Terminator Champion) is cheaper then a standard Loyalist Terminator Squad and will strike before them. 

Chaos Terminators still have decent fire power for xxpts you can have 4, 1 shot meltas and for an extra xx pts you can have a reaper, id say thats quite abit of fire power.

Im quite happy with my Terminators got 15 now, and they are so cool looking compared to there loyalist counter-parts.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

I also prefer the look of the caos termies. The only thing cooler than that would be a caos termie with a storm shield AND a reaper cannon... THAT SHOOTS THUNDER HAMMERS! :laugh:

Also, indulging in a short thread hijacking hijinks, is there any army that lets me make a terminator based list (caos or loyalist), and if so which one?


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Lastik said:


> Also, indulging in a short thread hijacking hijinks, is there any army that lets me make a terminator based list (caos or loyalist), and if so which one?


Dark Angels - Belial and Death Wing.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

effigy22 said:


> Dark Angels - Belial and Death Wing.


Cheers thanks, I have a IG army and am toying with the ideia of starting a new army.. of course with my luck the moment I spend money on it the DA codex would come out and say the death wing list is 4th only (like the armoured company in IG) :laugh:

In any case, back to the scheduled ranting folks :biggrin:


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Its so weird how GW decided to go the route where they are cheap and sacrificial. They are somewhat competetive, but only in those terms.

Realistically for fluff sakes they should be somewhat invincible and expensive.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Its so weird how GW decided to go the route where they are cheap and sacrificial. They are somewhat competetive, but only in those terms.
> 
> Realistically for fluff sakes they should be somewhat invincible and expensive.


Yes well.. I shudder to think if GW decided to go that way with a certain army written by HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED..

"D-man, IC , can be fielded without oponents permission and in any tournament at any point level regardless of rules and scenario. The moment you deplou D-man, you instantly win. In fact the mere presence of D-Man name on your list makes you instantly win in perpetuity, for all eternity"

I do agree though, caos termies do need more love (though not like what they did with the carnifexes. The idea is to make taking caos termies more apealing, not the other way around).

Also, wait a minute and lets see if I can get this straight.. I can make a footslogger list, a mechanized list, a terminator list AND a moto list with DA?!!:shok:

Bloody hell I'm actually liking space marines... I feel dirty..


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## Nottz (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm new to the game, but I think I agree that termies could be better equipped with stats and weapons. The whole termicide set up definitely seems worthwhile, but since they're classified as elites maybe they should get some more loving. It'd be cool if GW made this happen in the next dex, would open up a lot more army lists yes?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

If loyalist Terminators could take combi-weapons, I imagine you'd see quite a few people who would be all over that option.

Chaos Terminators are fine. They may not measure up to loyalist ones in some ways but that doesn't make them bad within the context of their own Codex.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't know if I wanna use them as termicides... It just seems kinda wrong IMO... Makes me wonder with how squishy they are why they don't put the new recruits in Termi armour first before they get their power armour


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

CSM terminators are best used as either small suicide units, or huge bricks of marked CC experts. The first being the more competitive.

Personally I go 10 man strong with MoK and 6PF's 2LC's, and to expendable PW armed ones as 30pt wound holders for the 2-3 I will lose before the fists strike. Still if even 3 of those terminator get to CC I can expect to kill 4-6 marines or ice a MC. Is it cost effective...well no, but a lot of CSM units are point sinks that require careful planning. 

On the plus side, shit is getting more and more ridicules in 40k (GK's DE) so the eventual rewrite in 2012 will most likly turn the current codex on its head for good or bad. Me I've been playing CSM as my sole army for so long that they could make every troop have to take 3-4 spawn with em and I would still play CSM so it matters not for me.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> I don't know if I wanna use them as termicides... It just seems kinda wrong IMO... Makes me wonder with how squishy they are why they don't put the new recruits in Termi armour first before they get their power armour


But they aren't squishy- the reason they are considered suicide units is *because* of their toughness and capability. They are something that has to be dealt with, and often immediately. Having them pop in behind your row of razorbacks or CCS and suddenly there is a very real threat to your game plan. 

Therefore, firepower is often diverted to this unit until it dies, as leaving it alone would wreck havoc. Hence, termicide- but it does two things for you. First, with combi-weapons you have a very good chance of taking out something expensive or important. Secondly, it then draws firepower from your opponent. This is an opportunity cost for them. Every high strength or high AP weapon that is needed to target them is one less at the daemon prince or LR full of 'zerkers. 


Chaos Terminators in my mind are the best elite option in the codex. The only other arguable contender is are Chosen, and even then they fufill a similar role. Don't knock them because they generally aren't the rock unit you see in loyalist marines- they have an entirely different purpose in the context of the Chaos codex.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

gally912 said:


> But they aren't squishy- the reason they are considered suicide units is *because* of their toughness and capability. They are something that has to be dealt with, and often immediately. Having them pop in behind your row of razorbacks or CCS and suddenly there is a very real threat to your game plan.
> 
> Therefore, firepower is often diverted to this unit until it dies, as leaving it alone would wreck havoc. Hence, termicide- but it does two things for you. First, with combi-weapons you have a very good chance of taking out something expensive or important. Secondly, it then draws firepower from your opponent. This is an opportunity cost for them. Every high strength or high AP weapon that is needed to target them is one less at the daemon prince or LR full of 'zerkers.
> 
> ...


I can see your view greatly, Maybe Its time for me to get that unassembled box of termies out and dust them fof and get em ready for some well deserved action. Wow I was wondering what my next project was gonna be and now because you I have my next course of action. Spank You vewy Munch


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> one word for ya Termicide
> 
> Anyway I think the combi weapon thing sux too but really the SM variant is still just as bad unless they are assault termies.
> 
> Anyway thats why said screw the gunz Im all Lightning Claws


You stole my setup cause how well I used them Against your SMs/Daemons :laugh:



MidnightSun said:


> Chaos gets the Terminators with the most firepower in the GAME. Seriously. Lascannon, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon? Fires these while on the move, effectively adding (On average) four inches to their range? Yes, it's still a Terminator (2+, 5++, looks like a Chaos Terminator for sure). You know what I'm talkin' about. He's called the Obliterator, and he's gonna break you in half with his GUNS.
> 
> Midnight


Never Leave home without them!!!!



TheSpore said:


> Yeah the oblitz are badasses. I can give that one two ya. I do have another chaos termi box to build and I am gonna do them with the standard build rather than convert them over with more Lightning claws. I just don't see a reason to bring more than 5...
> 
> I want more Oblitz


There is no reason. :so_happy:



MidnightSun said:


> If you need to use up some points, then what else do you spend your Elites choices on? Take two Chaos Dreadnoughts? 20 Possessed? Or do you go to Fast Attack and buy 30 Raptors? Maybe a bunch of Spawn? Nah, you just take Terminators. They're the best of a bad bunch. Troops, and HQ are where Chaos excel (If indeed they can be described as excelling at all).
> 
> Midnight


And Heavy Support! Look at the Vindi with Lash or Defiler for CC/Range Goodness. Oblits Again never Leave home without 1 Sqaud.



Katie Drake said:


> If loyalist Terminators could take combi-weapons, I imagine you'd see quite a few people who would be all over that option.
> 
> Chaos Terminators are fine. They may not measure up to loyalist ones in some ways but that doesn't make them bad within the context of their own Codex.


Exactly, they're awsome with the Cheaper Points and Combi Weapon Options. ALSO MoS is a great buy for those LC Termies.... Spore knows what Im talking about. 



TheSpore said:


> I don't know if I wanna use them as termicides... It just seems kinda wrong IMO... Makes me wonder with how squishy they are why they don't put the new recruits in Termi armour first before they get their power armour


Say What?! Its Termie Armour, for Chaos! They have to kill eachother just to own the Armour!



LukeValantine said:


> CSM terminators are best used as either small suicide units, or huge bricks of marked CC experts. The first being the more competitive.
> 
> Personally I go 10 man strong with MoK and 6PF's 2LC's, and to expendable PW armed ones as 30pt wound holders for the 2-3 I will lose before the fists strike. Still if even 3 of those terminator get to CC I can expect to kill 4-6 marines or ice a MC. Is it cost effective...well no, but a lot of CSM units are point sinks that require careful planning.
> 
> On the plus side, shit is getting more and more ridicules in 40k (GK's DE) so the eventual rewrite in 2012 will most likly turn the current codex on its head for good or bad. Me I've been playing CSM as my sole army for so long that they could make every troop have to take 3-4 spawn with em and I would still play CSM so it matters not for me.


Yes CSM suffer to DE and now GKs......



gally912 said:


> But they aren't squishy- the reason they are considered suicide units is *because* of their toughness and capability. They are something that has to be dealt with, and often immediately. Having them pop in behind your row of razorbacks or CCS and suddenly there is a very real threat to your game plan.
> 
> Therefore, firepower is often diverted to this unit until it dies, as leaving it alone would wreck havoc. Hence, termicide- but it does two things for you. First, with combi-weapons you have a very good chance of taking out something expensive or important. Secondly, it then draws firepower from your opponent. This is an opportunity cost for them. Every high strength or high AP weapon that is needed to target them is one less at the daemon prince or LR full of 'zerkers.
> 
> ...


As a Termicide they work welll.....



TheSpore said:


> I can see your view greatly, Maybe Its time for me to get that unassembled box of termies out and dust them fof and get em ready for some well deserved action. Wow I was wondering what my next project was gonna be and now because you I have my next course of action. Spank You vewy Munch


I will make 3 into Combi Melta Termicide. Keep your 5 with Twin LCs, in a LR, with Lash to keep from charging into Cover. IoS will also help to kill shit first before counter attack, less hits mean less armour saves .


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

I would argue that the Termies had the best options available in the codex. If I could be arsed to...


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Lastik said:


> Also, indulging in a short thread hijacking hijinks, is there any army that lets me make a terminator based list (caos or loyalist), and if so which one?





effigy22 said:


> Dark Angels - Belial and Death Wing.


Grey Knights as well.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Dont Foregt Logan Wing. You can make a All Termie or MOSTLY Termie Force.....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Rereading the Codex, Terminators are also the number one best way to get Land Raiders into the force, due to the fact that they don't take up Obliterator slots in Heavy Support.

Midnight


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I recently tried a terminator heavy list at 2000pts. Abaddon, 20 terminators 5 oblits and 1 7man squad of plague marines and 2 5man squads of csm's. List performed admirably, seems to be worth trying further. It is not easy to deal with that many 2+ armor saves.


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## eyescrossed (Mar 31, 2011)

Indeed, Termicide squad + Land Raider + 3 squads of Devastators.

EDIT: Randomly ninja'd.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

tabbytomo said:


> *Dont know if this is the correct place to begin this, but....
> 
> WHY OH WHY do chaos termies only have combi weapons? i know this must have been raged about elsewhere before, but it kills me somewhat. Fluff wise, termies are the hardest badasses that a chapter has (other than say dreadnoughts and chapter masters (USUALLY IN FRICKIN TERMIE ARMOUR!!!)).
> How come they don't have access to any throne damned weapon they want, for khornes sake im fairly certain some beefed up dark god preaching termie could carry a damn battlecannon if he really wanted to...how come they're stuck with pathetic combi weapons? can anyone really answer that question, without re-reading their answer, and thinking...yeh but they're termies...
> ...


I was playing a game against Grey Knights and my 10 Chaos Terminators with 2 Autocannons effectively killed off 2 Grey Knight Nemisis Dreadknights. I was happy.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> I recently tried a terminator heavy list at 2000pts. Abaddon, 20 terminators 5 oblits and 1 7man squad of plague marines and 2 5man squads of csm's. List performed admirably, seems to be worth trying further. It is not easy to deal with that many 2+ armor saves.


hmmmmmmmmm Termi death in a box I like it Im gonna try it sometime sounds nasty nasty mean


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

? how the hell did you kill two dreadknights with 2 reaper auto cannons. you get 4 shots that adds up to 20 str7 ap4 attacks over 5 turns vs two T6 MC's with a armor save of 2+. Assuming you hit and wounded with every single shot you would only expect 20 wounds to drop one dreadknigh as the 2+ save should have stopped a minimum of 14 wounds if you actually hit and wounded with everything. So either you exaggerating/lying or just incredibly lucky, and in the later case you most likely could have killed the dreadknights with bolter rounds.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> hmmmmmmmmm Termi death in a box I like it Im gonna try it sometime sounds nasty nasty mean


Two of three missions are objective based, however, and with only 17 not-exactly-survivable scoring bodies (10 MEq, 7 MEq with FnP) it doesn't take an awful lot of firepower to remove your ability to score. At that point, you can't make any decisions; you just have to try and keep the enemy off of the objectives to hope for a draw.

In Seize Ground, if you roll up the full five objectives, you don't really have enough units to spread around without over-extending yourself. Not trying to belittle Shaantitus' list, but it just seems to put too much faith into the Terminator's tanking ability. A turtling army, in short.

Midnight


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> ? how the hell did you kill two dreadknights with 2 reaper auto cannons. you get 4 shots that adds up to 20 str7 ap4 attacks over 5 turns vs two T6 MC's with a armor save of 2+. Assuming you hit and wounded with every single shot you would only expect 20 wounds to drop one dreadknigh as the 2+ save should have stopped a minimum of 14 wounds if you actually hit and wounded with everything. So either you exaggerating/lying or just incredibly lucky, and in the later case you most likely could have killed the dreadknights with bolter rounds.


I'm noticing this thread is FULL of people who have no idea as to what they're talking about. Madman's tales about how they brought abaddon or more than three terminators. Fools and addleminds talking about how they use mark of slaanesh on a unit with no frag grenades or good assault options.

God I can't get over how bad a land raider full of terminators with lightning claws and the MoS is. That's like...the single worst setup ever. You waste infinite points for a unit that can't do it's job.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> God I can't get over how bad a land raider full of terminators with lightning claws and the MoS is. That's like...the single worst setup ever. You waste infinite points for a unit that can't do it's job.


The problem with these sorts of statements is that if you don't actually spell out what you mean, a lot of people will just ignore your post and you don't end up accomplishing anything.

---

In a nutshell, the above setup is sub optimal because without frag grenades the Terminators will be going last against any unit in cover which robs it of an awful lot of its effectiveness. The entire point in taking a unit of claw Terminators is to charge and devastate entire units in a single round of close combat while suffering absolute minimum losses. When the enemy gets a chance to get a few attacks in first, your Terminators need to worry about losing models and once this happens, the unit's ability to do its intended job (kill things dead) becomes increasingly more difficult.

On top of that, Terminator Death Stars in Land Raiders only work against armies that are either old (and thus don't have access to nice, cheap melta weaponry) or bad (and thus don't have access to nice, cheap melta weaponry, or choose to not make use of said melta for some reason like theme etc). They're also incredibly expensive, very vulnerable to being Immobilized and then ignored and avoided and have essentially no way to stop something like a Dreadnought from intercepting and tying them down for the remainder of the game.

Oh and as for the discussion about scoring units, this is why I personally like squads of Noise Marines in Rhinos. Five models are quite cheap and you can get a hold of a blastmaster which gives you a little extra ability to deal with armored targets and can do well against infantry too (though I won't even pretend that it's an overly efficient weapon for its points, you do need to work with what you have).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> I'm noticing this thread is FULL of people who have no idea as to what they're talking about. Madman's tales about how they brought abaddon or more than three terminators. Fools and addleminds talking about how they use mark of slaanesh on a unit with no frag grenades or good assault options.
> 
> God I can't get over how bad a land raider full of terminators with lightning claws and the MoS is. That's like...the single worst setup ever. You waste infinite points for a unit that can't do it's job.


And lets not forget how GK's can now have +2I force weapons, and still have access to frag grenades. Its like paying full price for a 4 year old car that costs just as much as the new sports car that just came out, and said car has all the options the old car needed. 

On a sad side note part of the advantage of +1I is wasted do to terminators not being able to conduct sweeping advances.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> And lets not forget how GK's can now have +2I force weapons, and still have access to frag grenades. Its like paying full price for a 4 year old car that costs just as much as the new sports car that just came out, and said car has all the options the old car needed.
> 
> On a sad side note part of the advantage of +1I is wasted do to terminators not being able to conduct sweeping advances.


A thought occurs, no one can conduct sweeping advances. On topic, Terminators are overrated in every codex, yes Space Marine Termies can take the 'dreaded' storm shield, but so what? Swamp them in combat and they still die. Hell against a unit of five, ten Ork Nobz will do the job. Chaos termies are a little more versatile than their Space Marine counterparts, if only because they cost less (currently, I'd expect the price to rise 10 points in the next codex), can be taken in smaller squads and have access to the various benefits of the dark gods. Oh and they look better.

Apart from that though, why would you bother in a competitive list with Terminators? Berserkers can do a better job in combat while Obliterators are a better choice for tank-busting.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> God I can't get over how bad a land raider full of terminators with lightning claws and the MoS is. That's like...the single worst setup ever. You waste infinite points for a unit that can't do it's job.


People who take this option know how to use Lash. U know Lash?! The 1 of 2 DP builds for competitive play? U know this Waffles. 

Step one roll up 12" in Raider. 
Step two Lash and pull units out of cover.
Step 3 Charge and OWN......

Any of this ringing a bell :laugh: It works.... Alot.....


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> People who take this option know how to use Lash. U know Lash?! The 1 of 2 DP builds for competitive play? U know this Waffles.
> 
> Step one roll up 12" in Raider.
> Step two Lash and pull units out of cover.
> ...


Who's stupid enough to do all of the following?

1) Disembark a unit vulnerable to Lash from a transport.
2) Place the unit in the midfield.
3) Not position psychic defense in a way that it can attempt to block the Lash.
4) Not try to disable the Land Raider.
5) Not be ready with a unit to counter assault the Terminators in the event that they manage to charge said unit.

If someone has fucked up _that_ badly, they deserve to get ripped to pieces by the Terminators.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Who's stupid enough to do all of the following?


 Alot of people have no choice when there Transport blows up... Duh.



Katie Drake said:


> 1) Disembark a unit vulnerable to Lash from a transport.


Don't have a Choice if it blows up, Some units like Termies don't take Raiders ALL the TIME, Scouts, Lootas, Devastators, Long Fangs, Wyches that ran out of their Transports, ANY UNIT that left their Transport to assault, Platoon Squads that have more than 20 in it, OMFG there is Hundreds of reason or units that unit would be in cover and not a transport....... 



Katie Drake said:


> 2) Place the unit in the midfield.


Well not every one sits in the back and shoots all day lone like Tau/IG. 



Katie Drake said:


> 3) Not position psychic defense in a way that it can attempt to block the Lash.


Always a problem with SMs. Not Chaos Daemons, CSMs, Orks, IG, DE. Even then its usually a Roll of or negated on a 4+. Still the chance to go off. 



Katie Drake said:


> 4) Not try to disable the Land Raider.


AV 14 is hard to take down to anything less than a 12" Multi Melta or 6" Melta.....



Katie Drake said:


> 5) Not be ready with a unit to counter assault the Terminators in the event that they manage to charge said unit.


Let them, If they attack me good chance I STILL hit first at Int 5. I want my Termies in CC not being shot up next turn by Plasma....



Katie Drake said:


> If someone has fucked up _that_ badly, they deserve to get ripped to pieces by the Terminators.


I think its funny that you seem to suggest every player or race has Transports and put units like Scouts/ Stern Guard/ DAEMONS/ NIDS/ Lootas/ ANYTHING that DS/ MCs/ Oblits/ Ork Mobs/ Large IG Platoons/ ECT/ ECT/ ECT.... Sorry it does not work that way. Not everything Stays within 12" of their table edge and has a Transport to hide in. IF they did I would pop it first and attack whats inside. The big issue is Psy Defense, and thats again a SM specific crap really. SotW and Eldar RoW is not always so either. 

Seriously did you just tried to slap me down with a bias single minded view Kate?! If you don't think it work on your Transport Heavy, Anti Psychic, Shoot from your Deployment Zone army then yeah I be Totally wrong. However only IG and Tau do this tatic...... Duh.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> God I can't get over how bad a land raider full of terminators with lightning claws and the MoS is. That's like...the single worst setup ever.


Because you're right and anything that did not come out of your glorious mouth is WRONG.

You know people are allowed to do what ever they want, and just cause think it sucks, doesn't make it bad. You just might not know how to use that certain tactic. :O



LordWaffles said:


> You waste infinite points for a unit that can't do it's job.


I wish I had infinite points in my lists. So many options at that point level...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Anfo said:


> Because you're right and anything that did not come out of your glorious mouth is WRONG.
> 
> You know people are allowed to do what ever they want, and just cause think it sucks, doesn't make it bad. You just might not know how to use that certain tactic. :O


Sometimes this is the case, but no, Slaaneshi Terminators in a Land Raider are pretty bad. Sorry.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Alot of people have no choice when there Transport blows up... Duh.
> 
> Don't have a Choice if it blows up, Some units like Termies don't take Raiders ALL the TIME, Scouts, Lootas, Devastators, Long Fangs, Wyches that ran out of their Transports, ANY UNIT that left their Transport to assault, Platoon Squads that have more than 20 in it, OMFG there is Hundreds of reason or units that unit would be in cover and not a transport.......
> 
> ...


You know what I find funny about this post. I'm going to kill everyone else transport but no one will kill mine. To be honest Av14 is easy to take down. Dark Eldar and Eldar have lances. Space Marines and Guard have lascannons, Tyranids have psychic lances, Tau have Rail Guns. I see av14 go down all the time, hell they don't even have to kill your land raider. Int 5 isn't really that great now, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights thanks to halberds now strike first and Nids can easily make you strike at int 1. As for guard and ork, is int 5 really going to help? No. Plus tons of armies now have psychic defenses (you may just say space marines but guess what army everyone plays, yes space marines). Also your worried about being shot by plasma? How takes plasma anymore? Also assaulting wyches with terminators? I would laugh if you did that. Or your going to assault scouts? Once again I would laugh cause you just wasted a land raider, assault terminators and a daemon prince turn on attacking some scouts and leaving them all vulnerable to counter attack. As for Long Fangs, enjoy them shooting at your daemon prince and having the wolf priest totally screws over your daemon prince.

So in the end lets see what this is not effective at:
Space Marines (and variants): Cause they have lascannons, assault cannons and can psychic hood it.
Grey Knight: Halbreds, psycannons and psychic defense.
Guard: Like your land raider or daemon prince will survive that gunline and like that Int 5 is really going to help. Thanks to commissars your not going to be breaking any units and being held in combat.
Tau: Like your land raider will survive there rail guns.
Dark Eldar: Enjoy all there lances and poison weapons which will kill your land raider or/and daemon prince.
Eldar: Enjoy passing your psychic test on 3d6 and there lances
Nids: Enjoy going last due to lash whips or enjoy passing your test on 3d6 or enjoy there lances or enjoy fighting units where int 5 isn't going to make a difference.
Ork: Like you really need int 5 to be going first.
Sisters: See Orks and enjoy your daemon prince being shot by exorcist tank.
So that leaves what? Necrons, chaos marines Daemons? Necrons are bound for an update. Congratulation, your tactic is useable against 2 armies.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Seriously did you just tried to slap me down with a bias single minded view Kate?!


Erm, no? Why are we getting defensive?



> If you don't think it work on your Transport Heavy, Anti Psychic, Shoot from your Deployment Zone army then yeah I be Totally wrong. However only IG and Tau do this tatic......


I know it wouldn't work on my army because it's fully meched up and is easily able to stay back and shoot or move up and assault depending on the situation, but it isn't my army that we're talking about, it's _everyone's_. Yeah, this tactic might work on Orks or Tyranids, but honestly those armies struggle a lot anyway so it really doesn't say much.

Good armies are flexible enough to stay back and shoot when necessary. If you're running double Lash Princes, you can bet that competent players will stay back and shoot instead of moving up and letting you tear them up. If you really think that good lists won't be able to disable a Land Raider and/or kill a couple Daemon Princes without getting into the midfield then I'm really not sure what to say.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> ? how the hell did you kill two dreadknights with 2 reaper auto cannons. you get 4 shots that adds up to 20 str7 ap4 attacks over 5 turns vs two T6 MC's with a armor save of 2+. Assuming you hit and wounded with every single shot you would only expect 20 wounds to drop one dreadknigh as the 2+ save should have stopped a minimum of 14 wounds if you actually hit and wounded with everything. So either you exaggerating/lying or just incredibly lucky, and in the later case you most likely could have killed the dreadknights with bolter rounds.


How i don't know, but i got very lucky, and the poor bastard i played threw nearly all crap dice, this however was not all Autocannon, i also had combi-weapons and bolters, as i said i got very lucky.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well that makes alot more sense when you mention the combi weapons.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Don't have a Choice if it blows up, Some units like Termies don't take Raiders ALL the TIME, Scouts, Lootas, Devastators, Long Fangs, Wyches that ran out of their Transports, ANY UNIT that left their Transport to assault, Platoon Squads that have more than 20 in it, OMFG there is Hundreds of reason or units that unit would be in cover and not a transport....... But who's going to waste the Slaanesh Terminator Death Star on a squad of Lootas? Or Scouts?
> 
> 
> Well not every one sits in the back and shoots all day lone like Tau/IG.
> ...


10words.

Midnight


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> You know what I find funny about this post.


No, but I read yours and it makes me laugh.:laugh:



Necrosis said:


> I'm going to kill everyone else transport but no one will kill mine. To be honest Av14 is easy to take down.


LOL, yes mine can and more likely will go down, but AV14 will Last more turns than 2-3 of your AV10/11 Transports. Those go down EZ.



Necrosis said:


> Dark Eldar and Eldar have lances.


NOOO really? Those Lance rule Str 8 Weapons? Yeah. Their a threat to anything with AV13/14.... Good thing they still need to role 5s and 6s for a Pen. BTW thats not good odds on Dice rolling... if you didn't know.



Necrosis said:


> Space Marines and Guard have lascannons,


Lascannons are only good on Razorbacks for the Point Cost. IG have Vendettas that are a bitch but go down to my Oblits easier than my LR to them. AGAIN I'm only Pen or Glance on 5s and 6s.... Still not good odds.



Necrosis said:


> Tyranids have psychic lances,


Everyone play Hive Guard more than Drop Pod Zoans. Sorry......



Necrosis said:


> Tau have Rail Guns.





Necrosis said:


> I see av14 go down all the time, hell they don't even have to kill your land raider.


No they don't have to kill my LR, most times they don't cause I don't run it into MG range. 



Necrosis said:


> Int 5 isn't really that great now, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights thanks to halberds now strike first and Nids can easily make you strike at int 1.


DE have better Int, at S 3. Gray Knights are the BEST period in CC... cant really compare anything to them... good job. As for your lash whips, why would I assault a Hive Tyrant anyway? Thats stupid and bad generalship. I assault Hive Guard, Tervigons, Lictores, and Long Range Warriors. Duh.



Necrosis said:


> As for guard and ork, is int 5 really going to help? No.


Thank god. You name 2 armies out of, what, 14 that have worst Int. Good job again for pointing out how useless Int 5 is.



Necrosis said:


> Plus tons of armies now have psychic defenses (you may just say space marines but guess what army everyone plays, yes space marines).


Again so what? That goes for Eldar (who rely on Psy Powers), CSMs (WT, Lash), Grey Knights (ALL Psykers), Mephiston (people use him alot), Rune Priest (Common), other Librarians..... they all have to deal with it and still considered VIABLE Psykers. Whats your P o i n t?



Necrosis said:


> Also your worried about being shot by plasma? How takes plasma anymore?


So are my Oblits, PMs, Bezerkers, DPs, and EVERYTHING else in my Dex! Again why is it so bad with just my Termies?!



Necrosis said:


> Also assaulting wyches with terminators? I would laugh if you did that.



I laughed when I did. They hit first and never got through my Armour. I hit back with 20 Reroll to hits, Wounded on 3s, and ignored their FNP. Half Dropped and lost Morale..... :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Necrosis said:


> Or your going to assault scouts? Once again I would laugh cause you just wasted a land raider, assault terminators and a daemon prince turn on attacking some scouts and leaving them all vulnerable to counter attack.


I assault those SORING Scouts right off the objective in the last few turns, your damn right! You dont assault them in turn 1 or 2.




Necrosis said:


> As for Long Fangs, enjoy them shooting at your daemon prince and having the wolf priest totally screws over your daemon prince.


Thats if A) the Wolf Priest is in Range of my DP. B) I dont win the roll off. C) If he even has a Rune Priest on the table. I tend to send my Zerkers or NMs at that guy as Priority . Hell my DP without using a Psy power eats that guy and his squad in CC. 




Necrosis said:


> So in the end lets see what this is not effective at:
> Space Marines (and variants): Cause they have lascannons, assault cannons and can psychic hood it.
> Grey Knight: Halbreds, psycannons and psychic defense.
> Guard: Like your land raider or daemon prince will survive that gunline and like that Int 5 is really going to help. Thanks to commissars your not going to be breaking any units and being held in combat.
> ...


In the End I showed the RIGHT way of using them and you showed only singular circumstances of bad generalship on the CSM players fault. Not everyone plays like a Idiot.



Katie Drake said:


> Erm, no? Why are we getting defensive?


I do that when I drink. Thats why I have tons of Spelling Errors. Sorry.



Katie Drake said:


> I know it wouldn't work on my army because it's fully meched up and is easily able to stay back and shoot or move up and assault depending on the situation,


You play BAs and CDs right. The Blood Angels are a CC army and CDs have no Transports and cannot at all sit back to shoot. What army are you talking about? Better yet what else do you play?



Katie Drake said:


> but it isn't my army that we're talking about, it's _everyone's_.


And alot of people still like to do the Kan Wall, Creed with LOADS of Infantry, Fate Crusher, Thunder Wolf Calvary, BAs DS Assault Marines, Nob Bikers with Lootas, NECRONS, NIDS, DAEMONS, Drop Pod Lists, Raven Wing Death Wing, ect armies that have many hard units not in Transports. 



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, this tactic might work on Orks or Tyranids, but honestly those armies struggle a lot anyway so it really doesn't say much.


Its works on everything else I mention above too.



Katie Drake said:


> Good armies are flexible enough to stay back and shoot when necessary. If you're running double Lash Princes, you can bet that competent players will stay back and shoot instead of moving up and letting you tear them up. If you really think that good lists won't be able to disable a Land Raider and/or kill a couple Daemon Princes without getting into the midfield then I'm really not sure what to say.


If you think anything in CSM is super competitive I dont know what to say . I know its not Uber awsome like most 5th edition book list are. It works and does better than 5 man Raptor with MGs or Nurgle Bikers that people swear by. Alot Better. Its a solid enough Tatic in a Dex that has 7 competitive units. However since this is a Thread on Chaos Termies I am compelled to mention this works as well as a 3 man Combi Melts Termicide Unit that Usually deviates from DS that A) Suffers a Mishap, B) Lands too far away to make use of 2d6 Pen, C) Even shows up before Turn 5, and D) Gets wiped out Right after your turn. 

Hows that MUCH more viable? Good chance it wont end up doing nothing with those 3 above scenarios. Thats 105 points of nothing vs 210 points of CC Goodness. The Raider is a Added bonus for soaking Firepower, delivering the Termies, and TL Las to blast Vehicles. 

In the end you either agree or disagree. I seen this working to good effect by more people than myself. AGAIN I admit its not uber competitive, but neither is Termicid. Better place to pay points.



Also Midnight yours is too much to copy and paste but simply most of those units you labeled to take out AV14 are not seen in Meta Gaming... also Sternguard get Drop Pod alot more than tooted in a Rhino..... where you play may be more casual I dont know.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Well that makes alot more sense when you mention the combi weapons.


Also i forgot to mention that the forces against the Grey Knights were allowed to take plenty of cheese so i had my 10 Termies have Powerfists.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> LOL, yes mine can and more likely will go down, but AV14 will Last more turns than 2-3 of your AV10/11 Transports. Those go down EZ.


These is what we call denial. What happens if your opponent is also fielding land raider.
Warlock: No that will never happen. I will always fight rhinos and my land raider is harder to kill then a monolith.




> NOOO really? Those Lance rule Str 8 Weapons? Yeah. Their a threat to anything with AV13/14.... Good thing they still need to role 5s and 6s for a Pen. BTW thats not good odds on Dice rolling... if you didn't know.[qupte]
> Yes a threat to your land raider. And yes they do need a 5 or 6 to pen you, but that 5 and 6 does come up when I firing at you with several of them. So what happens when you fight Dark Eldar who field 2 or 3 ravagers.
> Warlock: In any game at most I will only fight one lance which will do nothing.
> 
> ...


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> People who take this option know how to use Lash. U know Lash?! The 1 of 2 DP builds for competitive play? U know this Waffles.
> 
> Step one roll up 12" in Raider.
> Step two Lash and pull units out of cover.
> Step 3 Charge and OWN......


Ready for this?
In competitive play you've just killed 75 points worth of grey hunters. 100ish pts worth of tri-melta vets, or, at most, 220 points worth of any other troops squad(If the player ran as many points as they could into it, which means they're bad.)

And how much did you spend on this? 125 for the sorceror, 208 for the eight berzerkers, and 265 for the land raider?
So you spent nearly six hundred points to kill a third or less points from the enemy?

Sure you totally gibbed those five space wolves with a free melta, but now you're about to get your asshole widened and lose a ton of points because you TOTALLY needed to kill five scared sumbitches who crawled out of a razorback.


Anfo said:


> Because you're right and anything that did not come out of your glorious mouth is WRONG.
> 
> You know people are allowed to do what ever they want, and just cause think it sucks, doesn't make it bad. You just might not know how to use that certain tactic. :O


Hence why I invite them to tell me the tactic. Which, as observed above, I defeated using logic and rational-thinking. I give everyone the chance to tell me what they think, but I also tell them the obvious outcome and why they're wrong. This isn't a hugbox, this isn't livejournal. You want to feel good, don't post stupid ideas than yell at "Old mean Mister Waffles" when he comes and slaps you with the stick of powergaming and pointcosts.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> I do that when I drink. Thats why I have tons of Spelling Errors. Sorry.


Hahaha, can't fault you for that. You should see me after I drink whiskey... :shok:



> You play BAs and CDs right. The Blood Angels are a CC army and CDs have no Transports and cannot at all sit back to shoot. What army are you talking about? Better yet what else do you play?


I play Blood Angels. My Daemons have been in a box for ages and only come out for really casual games and Apocalypse when we need a "bad guy" army. And Blood Angels don't have to be a close combat army. My usual list runs four Assault Squads in Razorbacks, three Baal Predators, two Dreadnoughts and two Furioso Dreadnoughts. Since it's meched up I get to decide if I want to be aggressive or defensive because I'm maneuverable enough to do both. Against a list like the one that you describe the _last_ thing I'd be doing is charging at it waving power weapons... because that would be sorta dumb.

The best lists are ones that can change tactics depending on what they're playing against. I'm not saying I have the best army in the entire world (because I don't and I have bad matchups like anyone else), but I am pretty flexible.



> And alot of people still like to do the Kan Wall,


Orks, so naturally you can kick the crap out of them, most armies can.



> Creed with LOADS of Infantry,


So you're going to Lash forward individual Infantry squads, or were you more thinking those big 50 man Guardsman blobs? 'Cause I actually wouldn't be surprised to find out that a 50 man Guardsman blob can beat 5 Terminators.



> Fate Crusher,


They're Daemons... of course you can beat them. If a list struggles against Daemons, it's probably a bad list.



> Thunder Wolf Calvary,


So one unit in the Space Wolves army?



> BAs DS Assault Marines,


DoA Blood Angels have bad matchups definitely. Even with a Librarian I can see them getting eaten alive by Lash, so you've got me there. Do note however that it's quite possible for DoA armies to just opt to not Deep Strike which does give them a much better chance against some armies.



> Nob Bikers with Lootas,


Yet more Orks.



> NECRONS, NIDS, DAEMONS, Drop Pod Lists, Raven Wing Death Wing, ect armies that have many hard units not in Transports.


We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel when we're talking about Necrons, Nids and Daemons, don't you think? 

Drop Pod Lists are sorta crap anyway, so you're right there. Dark Angels do struggle a lot against Lash without a Librarian (which they rarely take), so sure.



> Its works on everything else I mention above too.


So it works on mostly casual or outdated armies.



> If you think anything in CSM is super competitive I dont know what to say .


It's not and I've never said so.



> AGAIN I admit its not uber competitive, but neither is Termicid. Better place to pay points.


It's not competitive just because it's a Death Star and in an environment where many of the best lists are MSU-based, Death Stars really, really struggle - they simply can't kill enough enough over the course of the game to be worthwhile. Then you have issues where armies can simply blow up the offending unit. Guard probably have the easiest time with this out of everyone just due to the insane amount of damage output that those armies have.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> These is what we call denial. What happens if your opponent is also fielding land raider.
> Warlock: No that will never happen. I will always fight rhinos and my land raider is harder to kill then a monolith.
> 
> Sigh If my Oppent fields a Raider I take it out with MGs not my Raider. Have you ever played CSMs? Or just talk about tatics you seen others play with them? Also my Raider gets wasted half the games I play.... in turn 3/4. Im sorry your Raider luck and skill suck if thats the case.
> ...


You showed Specific examples where I listed many Lists and scenarios it works and then add insult to injury I still showed how I can over come that with my Cookie Cutter Lash Princes/Zerks/PMs/Oblits with LR and LC IoS Termies.

Again this is no way competitive in the overall scheme of things. Its just another way of running Termies other than Termicide.... which oddly some people (Looking at you Waffles) get uptight about. Anything outside of DPs, Troops, and HS is a waste of points for Competitve CSM list!!!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Its just another way of running Termies other than Termicide.... which oddly some people (Looking at you Waffles) get uptight about. Anything outside of DPs, Troops, and HS is a waste of points for Competitve CSM list!!!


Nobody is getting uptight about anything. Waffles has his own way of communicating, but all that's happening is that people are disagreeing that this proposed method of using Chaos Terminators is a good one.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Hahaha, can't fault you for that. You should see me after I drink whiskey... :shok:


I just need to stay away from the PC after playing Ring of Fire.:alcoholic:



Katie Drake said:


> I play Blood Angels. My Daemons have been in a box for ages and only come out for really casual games and Apocalypse when we need a "bad guy" army. And Blood Angels don't have to be a close combat army. My usual list runs four Assault Squads in Razorbacks, three Baal Predators, two Dreadnoughts and two Furioso Dreadnoughts. Since it's meched up I get to decide if I want to be aggressive or defensive because I'm maneuverable enough to do both. Against a list like the one that you describe the _last_ thing I'd be doing is charging at it waving power weapons... because that would be sorta dumb.


I see. Thats more Draeds than I could reliably deal with as well. I run 2 Squads of Zerkers and 2 squad of Doom Siren/PW NMs, 2 squads of 2 Oblits and 2 Lash Princes. So this would pose me a problem. Thats if I run my fun Lists. For you I have to just have to go straight Cookie Cutter.



Katie Drake said:


> The best lists are ones that can change tactics depending on what they're playing against. I'm not saying I have the best army in the entire world (because I don't and I have bad match ups like anyone else), but I am pretty flexible.


Totally Agree.



Katie Drake said:


> Orks, so naturally you can kick the crap out of them, most armies can.


:secret: Don't let Ork Players hear that.




Katie Drake said:


> So you're going to Lash forward individual Infantry squads, or were you more thinking those big 50 man Guardsman blobs? 'Cause I actually wouldn't be surprised to find out that a 50 man Guardsman blob can beat 5 Terminators.


Its useful for the blob squads, I see more people use 30 man Squads for the management and more Bring It down Options. 50 Man I use Zerkers with them, for 30 man I use them by themselves. However Commissars are a problem in breaking them.



Katie Drake said:


> They're Daemons... of course you can beat them. If a list struggles against Daemons, it's probably a bad list.


Sad but true.



Katie Drake said:


> So one unit in the Space Wolves army?


I mean the 3 units of them outfitted differently and the TW Lord with TH/SS and EW. I hate that ... whatever list name is.



Katie Drake said:


> DoA Blood Angels have bad match ups definitely. Even with a Librarian I can see them getting eaten alive by Lash, so you've got me there. Do note however that it's quite possible for DoA armies to just opt to not Deep Strike which does give them a much better chance against some armies.


I like them alot, way better than Daemons with the D6 Scatter, Sanguinor Guard, and 1+ to Reserve Rolls. Maybe Daemons will be like that one day.



Katie Drake said:


> We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel when we're talking about Necrons, Nids and Daemons, don't you think?


Yes I am :so_happy: But I do play them still. Oddly enough people still kick ass in some Tourneys too. 



Katie Drake said:


> Drop Pod Lists are sorta crap anyway, so you're right there. Dark Angels do struggle a lot against Lash without a Librarian (which they rarely take), so sure.


Yup.



Katie Drake said:


> So it works on mostly casual or outdated armies.


Oh defiantly.



Katie Drake said:


> It's not and I've never said so.


Misunderstood.



Katie Drake said:


> It's not competitive just because it's a Death Star and in an environment where many of the best lists are MSU-based, Death Stars really, really struggle - they simply can't kill enough enough over the course of the game to be worthwhile. Then you have issues where armies can simply blow up the offending unit. Guard probably have the easiest time with this out of everyone just due to the insane amount of damage output that those armies have.


Thats why I play Guard now :grin:. CSM are feeling the age. Its so cookie cutter now its ridiculous.

As I said Before, many many times now, Termies are not to be considered Competitive at all. I think the 2 best ways are 5 Termies/IoS/LCs/LR or Termicide. I prefer the previous over the latter.



Katie Drake said:


> Nobody is getting uptight about anything. Waffles has his own way of communicating, but all that's happening is that people are disagreeing that this proposed method of using Chaos Terminators is a good one.


Waffles is great when it comes to his bluntness zeal of what works and does not. He has a habit of comming off... angry??? when people field things for fun and say it works.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Alright warlock you were talking about using Chaos Terminators with lighting claws to go first. Using a daemon prince to use lash on them. I also say this, I was a bit rude on my previous post, so sorry about that.

Armies that this tactic is not effective due to them having lower int and thus it is better to take another mark:
Guard, Sisters, Necrons, Tau and Orks.

Armies that this tactic is not effective due to them having a higher int and thus it is better to take another mark:
Grey Knights and Dark Eldar

Also Tyranids int ranges anywhere between 1 to 7 (possible higher). Thus once again it is better to go with another mark, I can make the same argument for chaos daemons but it won't be as strong.

So that leaves us with Space Marines (including variants), Eldar and Chaos Space Marines.
All these armies (expect chaos) have psychic defenses, thus your tactic is only somewhat effective because lashing them out of cover doesn't always work.

So now lets take a look:
It better to take another mark against 8 armies (Guard, Sisters, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Tyranids). Not sure how effective it is verse daemons.

It is only semi effective against Space Marines(including variants) and Eldar.

It is effective verse Chaos Space Marines.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Alright warlock you were talking about using Chaos Terminators with lighting claws to go first. Using a daemon prince to use lash on them. I also say this, I was a bit rude on my previous post, so sorry about that.


Yeah I was getting snippy too. My Bad. unish:



Necrosis said:


> Armies that this tactic is not effective due to them having lower int and thus it is better to take another mark:
> Guard, Sisters, Necrons, Tau and Orks.


Agreed.



Necrosis said:


> Armies that this tactic is not effective due to them having a higher int and thus it is better to take another mark:
> Grey Knights and Dark Eldar.


Agreed.



Necrosis said:


> Also Tyranids int ranges anywhere between 1 to 7 (possible higher). Thus once again it is better to go with another mark, I can make the same argument for chaos daemons but it won't be as strong.


What Int is the Trygon, Gene Stealer, Warriors, and Hive Guard at? I cant remember for the life of me. Those are the 4 that I worry about. Other than them 4 yeah.



Necrosis said:


> So that leaves us with Space Marines (including variants), Eldar and Chaos Space Marines.
> All these armies (expect chaos) have psychic defenses, thus your tactic is only somewhat effective because lashing them out of cover doesn't always work.


Yes. Its semi Effective when Librarians are in the equation, it will fail half the time statistically. Thats why Chaos has nothing anymore Psy wise guaranteed for DPs. Sucks.



Necrosis said:


> So now lets take a look:
> It better to take another mark against 8 armies (Guard, Sisters, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Tyranids). Not sure how effective it is verse daemons.


VERY Effective. I played my Friends Daemons all the time and as long as his DPs or GDs dont DS next to my LR they have no way of opening it up. The Daemonetts are higher Int, Fiends are same. I love beating his 6 Fiends by Charging them first. However I will lose 2/3 Termies Average. So not smart really. I like the IoS for 3 reasons tho. 1) Its the Cheapest by far Icon. 2) Its useful against most games cause most people play SMs. 3) I play a huge EC army 



Necrosis said:


> It is only semi effective against Space Marines(including variants) and Eldar.


Yup.



Necrosis said:


> It is effective verse Chaos Space Marines.


Unless they use the same list.... then its who gets the first Perils.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> What Int is the Trygon, Gene Stealer, Warriors, and Hive Guard at? I cant remember for the life of me. Those are the 4 that I worry about. Other than them 4 yeah.


Trygon is 4, Gene are 6, Hive Guard 2, Warriors are 4. Warriors can take lash whips and bone sword though.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> What Int is the Trygon, Gene Stealer, Warriors, and Hive Guard at? I cant remember for the life of me. Those are the 4 that I worry about. Other than them 4 yeah.
> Two are higher than you, and two are lower than you. But LCs don't worry Trygons anyway, so moot point. Genestealers will pose a threat with their Rends and Broodlords (Hypno is great) with their awesome WS and I, no matter how you equip Terminators, so again moot point. LCs will bring down Hive Guard, but it may take a while. Warriors are like Marines, but with worse saves and more wounds, so they die quicker to PFs than to LCs, but Claws will still hurt them. Problem comes if they have Lash Whips and Boneswords. Then the Terminators have a real uphill battle.


Damn it, ninja'd.

Midnight


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Trygon is 4, Gene are 6, Hive Guard 2, Warriors are 4. Warriors can take lash whips and bone sword though.


Yup GeneStealers and Warriors with Lash Whips a no go. Only Long Range Warriors can be charged. Thnx.


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