# Why dont Imperial guard have guns instead of lasers?



## Soviet Lord (Nov 6, 2011)

Why do Imperial guardsmen have lasguns and not proper machine guns which would be more powerful wouldnt it?
Is it because there would be a problem with the ammo or something?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Soviet Lord said:


> Why do Imperial guardsmen have lasguns and not proper machine guns which would be more powerful wouldnt it?
> Is it because there would be a problem with the ammo or something?


they do, they have stubbers and auto cannons and heavy bolters,not to mention the hotshot lasgun


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually for all intensive purposes las guns and auto guns are identical stat wise. The reason the IG favors the one over the other is simple logistics.


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## Soviet Lord (Nov 6, 2011)

A hot-shot lasgun is not a machine gun it's still a laser


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Well what kind of fool brings a gun to a sci-fi laser fight? Plus it would be silly anyway. I mean, how else are you supposed to illuminate the Astartes' targets without flashlights?


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Auto-guns are identical to lasguns. Las bolts are powerful and can blow an orks arm off along with being easily mass produceable and in situations when a soldier becomes eperated from supply lines he can recharge his weapon in the sun (albeit slowly) so ammo is nearly unlimited and lasguns are extremely reliable. Gamewise they suck but fluffwise they are excellent weapons.


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## Soviet Lord (Nov 6, 2011)

Cool.
Why do they have to suck gamewise why cant they be good in games??


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Soviet Lord said:


> Cool.
> Why do they have to suck gamewise why cant they be good in games??


Because the vast majority of armies that wear armour wear advanced tech that can, for the most part, deflect nearly any weapons.

The lasgun is the symbol of the ubiquitous, disposable guardsman. Good enough to get the job done in mass, not so good as to be cost inefficient for the Imperial Guard.

That and can you imagine a platoon of 50 guardsmen shooting something actually decent at your 10-man squad of marines? Nooo thanks


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

logistics.

Battery packs that can be recharged are easier to carry than X amount of solid slug ammo.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

The reason they seem such poor weapons is because the power and dangerousness of everything is magnified in the future. A squad of space marines could demolish a modern platoon easily and much of imperial R&D (however shitty it may be) is focused on getting new tech for the space marines and so guard are left with mostly crap. They need so many guardsmen no one has the time or resources to outfit more than a few hundred guardsmen per hundred thousand with carapace armor or hotshot weapons. Plus the guns are holy and so giving a bolter to anyone who is not a fully indoctrinated servant of the Emperor is heresy. I'm not sure on this but I heard once that every bolt round is blessed with the sacrifice of an imperial citizen to the machine spirit. That fluff has probably been removed since then though.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

My boys with there flash lights killed a Avatar 

Because of orders they got twin linked and an extra shot, all 20 of them, that's 40 twin linked average shots then 60 when the avatar got within 12 

also you can recharge the battery packs in fires (Gaunts Ghosts do it in the scary castle in the last trilogy  )

furthermore compare the stat line of the chimera and the rhino


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Soviet Lord said:


> Why do Imperial guardsmen have lasguns and not proper machine guns which would be more powerful wouldnt it?


Conventional slug weapons have more moving parts, require a higher degree of maintanance, take up more space/mass (ammo), can jam, may include substandard ammo, and is not easy to replace ammo once used up.

On the other hand, a lasgun has few moving parts, is pretty easy to maintain (and can be taken through a variety of environments without the worry of jamming or malfunction), rarely if ever jams, take up less space/mass (ammo, allowing for more ammo), and the power cells can be recharged in a number of ways.


Lasguns are far more dangerous than a regular gun, at least a regular gun that can be wielded by a normal man. Las bolts are strong enough to punch through most light infantry body armour, and some heavier stuff (and enough las rounds can cause damage to power armour). In addition, a regular bullet creates a wound that bleeds, hurts like hell, and can be found and stopped in the aftermath of a fight. A las bolt on the other hand, those things fry the nerve endings around the wound they create; you don't feel the pain and in some cases don't even know how bad the damage is, sometimes leading to infection and death from that.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Game rules do not equal fluff. The game has to be balanced, the fluff is not. 

As other posters have said the lasgun is a fantastic weapon. It is powerful, capable of blowing the limbs of a man or an ork and penetrating most light infantry armour. Sufficient number of shots can damage Power Armour, something which is essentially impervious to most small arms fire. 

The lasgun is also far superior to solid shot small arms due to logistics. A lasgun powerpack can be recharged at a recharging station, via solar power or in a pinch you can throw it in a fire. Each pack is good for 60 shots. The gun itself also has less moving parts and is more reliable. 

Think of the scale of the Imperial guard. Trillions of soldiers; think how much ammo they would need. Lasguns and powerpacks make this a lot easier to manage, the gun itself is producible on nearly any world. It is the only standard piece of equipment the various regiments of the Guard share. 

Besides the Guard does use ballistic weapons; heavy bolters, heavy stubbers (essentially a 50.cal machinegun) and a lot of PDF's use autoguns.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Also some lasgun variants have power setting as far as fluff is concerned. In the first gaunts ghost book one of the vitrian dragoons decapitates a chaos space marine with a las bolt by upping the power output of his gun. 

To add to the statement about cauterised wounds, if you have a wound that is bleeding it will be open to the air and so will be treatable for a field medic. A couterised wound can fuse bone and tissues from the surrounding area together, Feygore in Necropolis learned this the hard way when his windpipe was fused.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

God damn I hate the new fluff on las guns ever since gaunts ghost and other books people have started to forget that in the old stuff a las gun was basically just a cheap and easy way to replace difficult to maintain and supply auto guns.

Going on the most basic across the boards interpretation it breaks down like this. Las guns typically do not blow limbs off (IF one book said a bolter could shoot a thunderhawke down would you quote that to!). But have the advantage of sometimes having a variant power setting that allows them to overcharge shots that may actually get close to that level of effectiveness.

Also wounds becoming infected is complete bullshit, A wound from a las gun takes longer to heal, but stands no chance of complication or infection if it doesn't hit a organ or major nerve at least for the first 1-2 days after injury. Also las guns in most depictions do not even leave a hole or entry wound, but burn all the tissue in the path of the beam.

Also auto guns tend to drop people that get hit by them as virtually no one on earth or in the future will continue fighting if you hit em straight on with any kind of service rifle. Were only a chest wound or organ shot will drop someone with a las gun, and that means they can still shoot you.

Seriously look at the books were they actually compare the two like the old wargear book, they say straight out that both are just as effective as the other, with the possible exception of variant environments.

You want to know the reason why you don't hear crazy ass shit about custom auto guns that can blow a marine in half? Its because auto guns aren't the weapon that would be talked about in most of the 40k books, because the las gun is the staple of the guard not the auto gun. Hence the newer authers make one of the crappiest weapons in 40k look cool, so we actually think the people we are reading about in gaunts ghost and other guard books aren't idiots for using em. 

God I miss the days when everyone new about how crappy these weapons were (relatively speaking), like in the space wolf series where marines literally walk through 1000 of las rifle shots to murder the guardsmen stupid enough to use a thermal weapon against a thermal resistant armor like ceramite.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Fluff evolves. Eldar didn't have craftworlds and marines used shuriken catapults at first but no one quotes that and complains new fluff is BS. Sure they may have used to be horrendous but not anymore.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

It has nothing to really do with old fluff vs new as it does with one or two authors going over the deep end and saying insane crap like las guns can blow a orc arm off...I mean really you don't even hear about marine bolters doing that half the time. It just bad for the fluff to go from zero to sixty like that, and its sad if no one else shares that sentiment. 

I mean what if all the sudden the fluff made bolters unable to wound orcs despite hitting them head on? Same generally idea, but the situation is reversed. I hope that demonstrates why I hate some of the sever right wing stuff on las weapons.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

a lasgun could blow the arm off an ork, if it was a punny one, and a bolter round could do f all despite hitting it head on, if it was a imba well ard bad arse tough as nails ork (thats my take on the fluff)

I remember some fluff stating that the adeptus mechanicus could equip the whole of the IG with Bolters of some form but it would make them too capable of taking out Space Marines

another thought i had is that a lasgun maybe able to have more shots per clip and i wonder if the rounds moving at the speed of light rather then sound would have anything to do with it. 

as for the bolters etc being sanctified i remember in a salamander novel there was a 'forge ship' that was stacked full of Space Marine armour and weapons. . . . .


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

hrmm, no offense Luke, but i would rather go with an authors fluff then a codex fluff that seems to be inconsistent as each new codex comes out. at least the authors of said "books" get together to toss ideals around and keep the brainstorming together. or else we would have a complete farce of fuck ups throughout the whole heresy novels.

and to use an aunthors well publish novel series such as "Guants Ghosts" shows a lack of understanding, as Dan has been consistent throughout his broad range of novels.
why not through out a few other lines for arguments sake? what about the Cain novels? or Esenhorn? cmon now, a bolter round that can track an enemy and punch through him countless number of times before expending itself? and lets not forget the countless other novels. over all at least THEY are all consistent with their fluff. i can go dig up all my old codex's and compare them to each "upgrade" and laugh at how bad the fluff changes from codex to codex 

One thing that is the same through out all fluff is that Hard round weapons is considered sub-par to the IG Lasgun, and that yes, even the standard flak armor that IG are equipped with can stop a stub guns round (kinda like Kevlar) and the whole blowing limbs off? yes it can happen, if a 9mm can take of a few fingers or hollow out the side of a persons skull, then certainly a lasgun and do that and then some


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> God damn I hate the new fluff on las guns ever since gaunts ghost and other books people have started to forget that in the old stuff a las gun was basically just a cheap and easy way to replace difficult to maintain and supply auto guns.


What new fluff? Lasguns have been essentially the same since the days of Rogue Trader. They have been explored in more depth certainly but nothing about them has radically changed. They have always been effective, useful weapons that just appear weak compared to the weapons of the the Astartes and the Eldar (power armours nigh invulnerability to small arms fire didn't help the either).



> Going on the most basic across the boards interpretation it breaks down like this. Las guns typically do not blow limbs off (IF one book said a bolter could shoot a thunderhawke down would you quote that to!). But have the advantage of sometimes having a variant power setting that allows them to overcharge shots that may actually get close to that level of effectiveness.


You mean hotshots? That's done by overcharging the powerpack (or variously a separate kind of powerpack), not a variable setting on the lasgun. 



> You want to know the reason why you don't hear crazy ass shit about custom auto guns that can blow a marine in half? Its because auto guns aren't the weapon that would be talked about in most of the 40k books, because the las gun is the staple of the guard not the auto gun. Hence the newer authers make one of the crappiest weapons in 40k look cool, so we actually think the people we are reading about in gaunts ghost and other guard books aren't idiots for using em.


Where did anyone say a lasgun could 'blow a marine in half'? Hysterics na exaggeration is not helping your argument. Are you seriosuly saying the the soliders of the Guard are 'idiots' for using lasguns? An effective weapon which has so many logistical advantages. 



> God I miss the days when everyone new about how crappy these weapons were (relatively speaking), like in the space wolf series where marines literally walk through 1000 of las rifle shots to murder the guardsmen stupid enough to use a thermal weapon against a thermal resistant armor like ceramite.


Exactly, crap relatively speaking. Of course a bolter or a shuriken catapult is more damaging than a lasgun. Their more advanced examples of tech in the hands of special forces. There are however trillions of guardsmen that need to be provided for. It can only possibly be considered a crap weapon in relative terms and even then it stands out on its own fairly well. 

Regarding you Space Wolf quote, yes that is what power armour is designed to do and still does. Look at Nightbringer or the Heresy series. Astartes are still wading through small arms fire. 

Ultimately though fluff does change. For example Guilliman is a primarch now and the Ultramrines a first founding legion. Would you prefer to see those decisions reversed? Should the Imperial guard still get jetbikes and jump packs? Hell Horus was never even originally a primach, just the greatest of the Emperor's generals, no pseudo-familial relation.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Imp Blackheart said:


> One thing that is the same through out all fluff is that Hard round weapons is considered sub-par to the IG Lasgun, and that yes, even the standard flak armor that IG are equipped with can stop a stub guns round (kinda like Kevlar) and the whole blowing limbs off? yes it can happen, if a 9mm can take of a few fingers or hollow out the side of a persons skull, then certainly a lasgun and do that and then some


Good points up to the last bit, as a thinking person I know for a fact that a las gun could not do those things because its a laser weapon, Now if the writers said that the las gun cut the persons arm of, or that las weapons killed from massive cellular damage from the effects of damaging tissue at a cellular level then I would be a lot less pissy about all this.

However as someone that actually understands the physics of how lasers and the like work I find the 40k depiction getting wackier every edition (Note that making a laser more powerful does not make it magically disobey the laws of physics). Then I could get behind some of the fiction, but as it is they are taking laser weapons in the entirely wrong direction from how they function and it for whatever reason aggravates me. 

Also I like how you did not mention how those same flak vests are also said to save guardsmen from las weapons. (Which makes just as much sense as bullets as las weapons are a heat based cutting weapons, and still take time to denigrate/burn through matter.). 

Also for some of the people commenting on my post I am not attack you or your ideas, I am just pointing out my personal distaste for a thematic change in 40k that is not representative of the table top or most of the foundational depictions of the weapon.

However at the end of the day 40k is so vast that fluff now exists to support any insane interpretation of almost anything in the fiction. So if fans of the guard want to interpret str3 las guns with ap6 to - as being anything, but the new space aged version of a m14 then go ahead, but for me las guns are always going to just be the imperiums lowest grade service rifile no more no less.

In fact when ever I build traitor guard I model them to use stubbers because at the end of the day str3 is str3 and I just like the idea of soldiers lighting up as their guns burst forth with a screaming hails of super heated lead. Because once again I find the idea of virtually noiseless, smokeless death flashlights is a tad boring and anti climatic when compared to the idea of a lucky shot spraying a marines brains all over the inside of their helmet as a 306 round tears through the visor lens. Also going by the size of a las gun the equivalent rifle for the bulk of the gun would be nearing .450 in caliber, and the idea of a bunch of those clicking off rending people to red mist is infinitely more satisfying to my sensibilities then a corpse with a bunch of burn marks cut through it.

However as stated when it comes to none game related sources of interpretation its entirely up to the reader, and for me las guns will always be crap.


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Because las-guns are easier to produce and are solar powered. Also they make marking targets for Astartes a lot easier.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Minizke1 said:


> Because las-guns are easier to produce and are solar powered. Also they make marking targets for Astartes a lot easier.


Logistics for the win!


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Logistics for the win!


Indeed!


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

> You mean hotshots? That's done by overcharging the powerpack (or variously a separate kind of powerpack), not a variable setting on the lasgun.


no, in several of the Gaunts Ghosts novels the guardsmen reffer to a setting on the lasgun. that can be changed from lowpower (lots of shots) to high power (not many shots but very effective).

however this might depend on on what forge world they were manufactured on.

[EDIT] quoting the guard codex "....the much sought after variable power setting Triplex pattern....", so yes, they do exist


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

It appears that many do not know what a laser is capable of.

Yes, they burn. We've all explored our little inner-pyromaniac at some point or another with a Magnifying Glass in the midday sun.

However, once we start to amp up the energy of it all, 'it burns' starts to sound quaint.

I know lighting is not the same thing but some people when struck but a lighting arc have reported that their clothing 'exploded' from their body. What happens is the energy is rapidly heating the air in a rather closed environment, Clothing tears more readily then skin and so the pressure bubble will rapidly escape, tearing the clothing off in the process. Thus 'exploding'.

Now with the Lasers here in question there is a line of thought that once the energy of the laser hits the moist, 70% water interior of your body it'll rapidly agitate the ambient water (like your blood) and it'll vaporise or even skip straight to plasma stage.

Now, you have a 'bubble' of super-heated air or plasma in a closed environment of flexible tissue seeking a way to reestablish pressure balance and as elastic as tissue is, there is always a limit.

and that is when you get a lovely gore show.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

logistics would be a major factor in the use of las guns, standard small arms require spare parts oil, maintainance etc and ammo is heavy, a 200 round belt of machine gun ammo weighs approx 12lbs, your average soldier in Afghanistan carries 300 rounds ready to go and spare ammo which weighs about 30lbs and thats before you add grenades, thermal sights , rockets etc. so a simlpe weapon thats easier to maintain and re-supply would be prefarable.Another point is also an environmental factor, ballistic weapons unless self propelled like bolter rounds would be useless in low grav or high grav zones.

Now the effects of ballistic weapons are highly damaging with the kinetic impact of the bullet, the cavitation of the wound, hydraulic shockwave- you are mostly liquid think of ripples from a stone dropped in water and apply bullet to a body- but a laser weopon would also cause hideous wounds after all super heated blood and tissue rapidly expanding as they vapourise would literally cause an explosion of steamed body bits.

Personally if cast through the warp to fight in the grim dark future, I'm gonna side with Luke and go with a good old fashioned 7.62mm elephant/ork stoppng auto gun!!! but remember folks if you have baneblades and swarms of leman russ tanks, massed artillary, do you really care what your infantry are carrying, after all we have a new secret plan to win the war Blackadder!!!


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Why don't we start just another _'Why don't ... ?'_ - thread ? :dunno:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Kettu said:


> Now with the Lasers here in question there is a line of thought that once the energy of the laser hits the moist, 70% water interior of your body it'll rapidly agitate the ambient water (like your blood) and it'll vaporise or even skip straight to plasma stage.
> 
> Now, you have a 'bubble' of super-heated air or plasma in a closed environment of flexible tissue seeking a way to reestablish pressure balance and as elastic as tissue is, there is always a limit.
> 
> and that is when you get a lovely gore show.


This is the answer I was hoping somebody would come up with. Explosive evaportion is almost certainly the result of being hit by a combat laser. The power needed to cause significant damage would have to be high. So once into the soft fluid high tissue of a body the results would be very gory. It is almost certainly capable of blowing off limbs or large chunks of the body. 

A much more capable weapon than one firing a projectile. The only reason you would use a bolter over a lasgun would be due to the bolters armour pentrating ability. With so many shots available to a IG regiment this requirement is not needed.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think I'm going to just start posting some very simple questions and count how many people can answer it and say pretty much the same thing over and over.

I think it's because many forges have the STC pattern for the lasgun, making it very simple to auto-manufacture from common materials.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

My bad jaysen, i just posted without reading kettus' post, it's the pain glove for me again!


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Minizke1 said:


> Because las-guns are easier to produce and are solar powered. Also they make marking targets for Astartes a lot easier.


Basically this. They're reliable, easy to produce, and basically have an infinite supply of ammo.

Besides, it's not as if all solid round/slug guns are necessarily better. Bolters aren't just bullets, but miniature explosives that detonate inside the target when hit.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Kettu said:


> It appears that many do not know what a laser is capable of.
> 
> Yes, they burn. We've all explored our little inner-pyromaniac at some point or another with a Magnifying Glass in the midday sun.
> 
> ...


You would think that a laser would do that but as someone who has seen wounds from accidents involving industrial cutting lasers it sadly does not. The fact is that simply passing a super heated item into a medium does not equally heat the surrounding matter (Laws of thermodynamics mention the properties of heat exchange).

The fact is las weapon fires in small hundredths of a second bursts meaning only the miniscule fluids in the path of the beam are vaporized, and as the las disintegrates the tissue on the surface of the wound it produces a channel for this minute gases to escape from. When I say heat based weapon I mean a focus heat based weapon. For instance if I expose a inch of skin to the heat of the sun for 10000th of a second the flesh will be denigrated at the exposure sight, but the surrounding tissue is fine as the pulse is to short to allow molecular movement to heat the surrounding matter.

If you lack the theoretical back ground to see these points then I will draw your attention to real world examples. Example one the laser used in eye surgery uses the same general idea of bursts of energy to denigrate matter using a vaporizing effect, but as it fires in a very short burst no thermal exchange happens beyond the effected tissue. Another example is if you touch a red hot needle to your skin for less then .5 of a second it may hurt, but the tissue damage is almost nonexistent beyond the contact site.

The problem I see here is people are trying to apply common sense to explain how las weapons would work and sadly science and the laws of physics don't always agree with common sense. For instance a las weapons deadliest ability would be the fact that the targets would most likly develop cancer do to cellular damage, as would they suffer blindness and retinal deterioration from just bing in front of the las weapon when it fires, but neither of these facts is mentioned in 40k do to how its not based on real world physics.

So either admit that las weapon in 40k have nothing to do with real world lasers, or adjust your opinion to a rational empiricist interpretation of 40k.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

The u.s military have shot down drones with las weapons and are experimenting with various types of laser, some which do damage by explosive evaporation, granted these are all mounted on trucks planes naval vessals but fluff and game wise las guns are pump , m14s all round, blow gaping holes in all comers and look retro cool doing it or go for a scar -h if you fancy yourself as a storm trooper


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Hellados said:


> Because of orders they got twin linked and an extra shot, all 20 of them, that's 40 twin linked average shots then 60 when the avatar got within 12


Not to start a rules discussion in a Fluff thread (that happens to be in the General section?!?)

But, you should know a unit can use 2 orders in the same turn.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Oldman78 said:


> pump


 You mean pimp right?

-I just realized that it is virtually impossible to figure out how las rifle function with the variant fluff giving different accounts.

For example it is possible that las rifles function like the weapons being used by the us military which are designed to destroy electronics and detonate munitions/warheads by thermal transfer, but I always assumed that guard las weapons were a very focused low exposure cutting beam. Yet now that I think about it virtually no specs are talked about in regards to burst duration, or wave length. In fact do they even mention if las rifles use chemical cells to fuel the reaction?

These are the kind of question I ignored by simple making the assumption that las rifles were a short duration burst cutting laser using a highly focused beam (Hence why some have a ap value), yet as this information is missing I honestly can't make a definitive statement on the functioning of a theoretical las gun (Yet I doubt is the similar to the lasers being tested by the us military as those require a exposure time and would have virtually no penetration, all though from what I have seen of em they would cook a humanoid target something fierce.)

In real life though a focused cutting laser would be the best fit as it would explain the variant ap of las weapon, yet allow for their relatively low str. As increasing the strength or focusing of the beam would not make a worse wound, but would allow the weapon to vaporize matter more efficiently with the same exposure times.

For those interested in learning more about the functioning of lasers wikipedia has a decent article on the topic that doesn't require fingering through a textbook. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I would never assume that GW or the Black Library does any research beyond asking their buddies that work with them how a xxx would work in the future. This covers "las" weapons. They might be some futuristic thing that hasn't been invented yet or maybe just a new, more focused version of a tight beam radiation weapon. Who knows?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey, look at Jaysen, going from taking the piss out of those helping, and then progressing to being utterly unhelpful.

There's hope for us yet boys.

And yes, before you ask, I love hypocrisy. It tastes _wonderful_.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

no I meant pump, a term over here for something shit! i think we will just have to keep an eye on the discovery channel and see what happens with regard laser weapons, gw just should have called them blasters like in star wars, then we could all just get along


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

jaysen said:


> I would never assume that GW or the Black Library does any research beyond asking their buddies that work with them how a xxx would work in the future. This covers "las" weapons. They might be some futuristic thing that hasn't been invented yet or maybe just a new, more focused version of a tight beam radiation weapon. Who knows?


 
This was my entire thinking through the whole argument.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

Oldman78 said:


> no I meant pump, a term over here for something shit! i think we will just have to keep an eye on the discovery channel and see what happens with regard laser weapons, gw just should have called them blasters like in star wars, then we could all just get along



bu- bu- but Lasgun sounds so much cooler than Laser gun or Blaster! same with Imperium sounding cooler than Empire.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Hey, look at Jaysen, going from taking the piss out of those helping, and then progressing to being utterly unhelpful.
> 
> There's hope for us yet boys.
> 
> And yes, before you ask, I love hypocrisy. It tastes _wonderful_.


 
Speak English, man. What does, "taking the piss out of those helping" even mean? Why would I want to take the piss out of someone? Sounds really discusting.

I'm not sure how I was being unhelpful. It seems to me that pointing out the fact that fluff and fictional stories are not always based on science does help resolve the argument. Basically, there is no good, logical reason for having a "lasgun" as opposed to having some other type of weapon except that the original sculptors and writers liked it that way. I would bet it had more to do with the original sculpt's looks than for any other reason.


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## eyescrossed (Mar 31, 2011)

jaysen said:


> Speak English, man. What does, "taking the piss out of those helping" even mean?


Oh the irony.


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

thank you for pointing out the good points there jaysen, but ironically some of your counter points have failed. 
Alright you use poor examples for laser tech. laser eye surgery?? seriously? your going to base your examples on things that affect the smallest millimeter of flesh??? your talking micro surgery there buddy, how about expanding that to oooh i dunno 100million times the size? 
Now if you want to go industrial factors. have you ever seen a plasma torch wound? how about an arc wielder wound?? we're talking about energy and heat wounds here(something on par with lasguns in ideal). and the pain that it leaves is not just the affected area, were talking about countless nerve endings going haywire with a lasting "phantom ache". I know, ive seen it happen, i watched buddies suffer from it. 
Ive shared my own experiences with oxy/acet wielding. now lets talk about burns shall we? someone gets a sunburn and blister, now we are not even talking dangerous lvls of heat exposure there. but it still burns and hurts, and it causes damage to the skin, now lets just magnify that to 4,530 °F (2,500 °C) for oxy/acetylene, who can tell me what that kind of temp will do to the human body? anybody? so for the next time you want to use an example, try to stir clear of non-lethal medical techniques. it doesnt do your argument any justice.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Imp Blackheart said:


> thank you for pointing out the good points there jaysen, but ironically some of your counter points have failed.
> Alright you use poor examples for laser tech. laser eye surgery?? seriously? your going to base your examples on things that affect the smallest millimeter of flesh??? your talking micro surgery there buddy, how about expanding that to oooh i dunno 100million times the size?
> Now if you want to go industrial factors. have you ever seen a plasma torch wound? how about an arc wielder wound?? we're talking about energy and heat wounds here(something on par with lasguns in ideal). and the pain that it leaves is not just the affected area, were talking about countless nerve endings going haywire with a lasting "phantom ache". I know, ive seen it happen, i watched buddies suffer from it.
> Ive shared my own experiences with oxy/acet wielding. now lets talk about burns shall we? someone gets a sunburn and blister, now we are not even talking dangerous lvls of heat exposure there. but it still burns and hurts, and it causes damage to the skin, now lets just magnify that to 4,530 °F (2,500 °C) for oxy/acetylene, who can tell me what that kind of temp will do to the human body? anybody? so for the next time you want to use an example, try to stir clear of non-lethal medical techniques. it doesnt do your argument any justice.


Hmmm, I didn't say any of those things. Go back a page and see who that was.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

jaysen said:


> Hmmm, I didn't say any of those things. Go back a page and see who that was.


Oh forums, how I love thee. Members claiming things which simply aren't true, saying somebody said something they didn't... *sigh*

The lesson to be learned here, kiddies, is LEARN TO READ. (Preferably _before_ you post highly condescending comments about somebody else's non-existent argument.)


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

@Jaysen:

"Taking the piss" is an expression that Aussies and Brits tend to use.
It means to mock, make fun of or generally deride.

Don't try to do it back to us, though. We each take the piss out of ourselves better than anyone else.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Oh forums, how I love thee. Members claiming things which simply aren't true, saying somebody said something they didn't... *sigh*
> 
> The lesson to be learned here, kiddies, is LEARN TO READ. (Preferably _before_ you post highly condescending comments about somebody else's non-existent argument.)


Almost every time I see you post, I'm left wondering where you acquired that exceptionally tall horse.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

chromedog said:


> @Jaysen:
> 
> "Taking the piss" is an expression that Aussies and Brits tend to use.
> It means to mock, make fun of or generally deride.
> ...


Ah, thanks. That's very different from what I thought it meant. :wasntme:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Almost every time I see you post, I'm left wondering where you acquired that exceptionally tall horse.


We excavated it from some ruins in Greece or something. With the economy how it is now they were pretty happy to sell it to him.  



jaysen said:


> Ah, thanks. That's very different from what I thought it meant. :wasntme:


Don`t ya just love aussie slang? 


On topic: I think the topic`s been ably covered. Shall we call the thread then? :bye:


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

Just my two cents from having served 9 years in the US Marines and currently working in the defense industry. “Laser guns” are not the future. Lasers don't offer an advantage over bullets, even assuming that you could field a laser powerful enough to kill someone at a medium range and still make it man portable.

The future is guided munitions. Something that a laser cannot accomplish. The US military's Warrior 2025 wants to incorporate smart bullets. Basically small guided missiles that will lock on and hunt down the enemy. Also, hauling around recharging equipment will be just as bulky as carrying around bullets and potentially more dangerous. Lasers will always have a role like range-finding, designating, cutting, welding, countermeasures, etc. But will not be a primary weapon.

Laser rifles will be just like giant robots; a staple for science fiction fans but not something that will ever make the battlefield. I, myself, never understood the fascination with giant robots and laser guns. I just like building models and playing war games though…


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

I'd also like to add that payload is another advantage that bullets have. Bullets can act like buck shot and spray an area, be armor piercing, explosive, and the NATO Ball (used by the M16) can enter a person and bounce around their rib cage wrecking havoc on their insides.

Space Marines, I believe, use bullets as well. And everyone knows Marines are better... Though for some reason they use big robots as well.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I love me some white phosphorous rounds. I wounder what they would be like in 40k, probably something like 24" str3 poisoned 3+ (nothing keeps fighting with a chemical fire burning out their insides), ap4. God I remember seeing medical images of people just nicked by those things, god it was horrible.

On a side not I will no longer be following this thread as I feel I have presented my thematic, and emperically based reason for thinking las weapon are more prevalent in 40k, and my reasoning for why las weapons would not be any better on average then a solid slug firing weapon.

On a side not I feel its necessary to remind people what is possible through a solid slug round delivery system that is not possible with a energy weapon. Note if their were no restrictions and regulations on warfare these would be the standard kinds of solid slug munitions we would use to say fight orcs.

-Cyanide and other chemical poison payloads. : If you even got nicked by one of these you would be lying in a heap on the floor before anyone could even try and help you.
-Black rhino or other specially designed armor defeating round: In real life these kinds of rounds are typically restricted, because when fired from a decent rifle they tend to hyper penetrate the target which can lead collateral damage or friendly fire incidents. (Ap greatly enhanced)
- Explosive round. It various but the wound channel made by these anti armor round would drop a orc or a unarmored marine if it caught em in the chest as these weapons do blow giant internal hole in people. (Ap enhanced)
- Hollow point round. Medics will have a shit of a time saving you if you get one in the chest, as the bullet becomes in theory tons of small bullets that turn your insides to paste. (Ap reduced)
- Phosphorus rounds. Horrible horrible nightmarish shit. Not only is it poisonous, but it burns hot enough to allow the round to ignite fouls and detonate munitions, also does not near air to keep burning so it will cook you on the inside out. (AP enhanced)

Note: MOst of these kinds of munitions are so deadly and inhuman that most countries have outlawed their use in war...so yah I would gladly take a las shot when facing the chances of any one of these hitting me.

On a interesting side not why do we never seem to use these kinds of weapon in sci-fi movies when fighting aliens that have exoskeletons or the like? I mean its not like moral concerns are stopping us from outfighting every marine with phosphorous rounds if we were fighting say giant cockroaches. Hell we have even more nightmarish weapons then these, yet they never seem to be used. Hell we have neuro toxins that could scour a entire battle field clean before breaking down to none harmful levels in a few hours, yet when the giant space monsters attack we never seem to think the just bath them in chemical death. You could argue that they have different physio.logy, but it doesn't take long to figure out what kills something.


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## Marzillius (Jun 30, 2011)

Lasguns are shit in comparison to other races weaponry. The Imperial Guard use them because they are good in large numbers, they are reliable, cheap and easy to produce.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

davespil said:


> even assuming that you could field a laser powerful enough to kill someone at a medium range and still make it man portable.


:laugh: Sorry but when I read that all I could think of was...



Popular Mechanics said:


> Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

IG use lasguns because the IG troop only costs 5pts and a bolter is worth more than that.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Bolters are actually 2 points for IG commanders.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

why on earth did i read 6 pages of this?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

the-ad-man said:


> why on earth did i read 6 pages of this?


`cuz you silly?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Samules said:


> Bolters are actually 2 points for IG commanders.


Which would bring the trooper's cost to 7pts which is > 5.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> `cuz you silly?


pretty much i fear


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

jaysen said:


> Which would bring the trooper's cost to 7pts which is > 5.


Were you born a demick, or did you aspire to become one?

Because fuck me, you succeeded.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Were you born a demick, or did you aspire to become one?
> 
> Because fuck me, you succeeded.


You are my inspiration, Vaz. I still hold that fluff wise, the imperium probably sees the holy bolter as worth more than the average gardsman.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yet they were carted around in Land Raiders, and sergeants have access to Bolters?

Yeah. No.

Logistics. Oh you have a 10 Power Packs with a variable power setting and possibility to overcharge, each containing 30 shots at average power, and that weighs around 5kg? Cool, I have a heavy weapon with gravity affected ammunition that has a shelf life, moving parts inside the rifle that need complete care and attention, as well replacements for equipment wear and tear. The supply chain for just that is beyond comprehension on a galaxy spanning Imperium, where supplies will have to be shipped out, often arriving at a location after the target supply unit has since moved on.

Marines have the possibility of making their own weaponry in their chapter forges, and are completely self contained.

Look at Afghanistan and Iraq for how wars are fought. There are probably in excess of 100,000 military personnel and civilian contractors in and around the Middle East Warzones. Of those, around 20,000 are combat oriented soldiers.

For the Assault on Al Faw, there were 800 Royal Marines and Commando Helicopter Force pilots along with a couple of squadrons from the SBS and SAS that took part in that attack. To support them in none combat operations (so not including the Naval Gunnery Support and Air Cover etc), there were over 7000 Royal Naval Personnel, the majority of those were dealing with consumable supplies - namely ammunition. Over continued contact over the course of 6 days, despite going into the Al Faw peninsula with over 1000 rounds per man, and each Fire Sections Minimi having nearly twice that amount, marines were often pooling 2-3 magazines worth between 4 or more men.

With rechargeable equipment - even if it was a jury rigged charger, or simply a fire which recharged the ammunition, the RM could have taken either less ammunition into battle, or had to fall back from positions simply through lack of ammunition.


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

Laser technology doesn't exist to that extent. Battery technology is holding back a lot of other technology that we want to field in battle. Such as helmets with built in HUDs and NVGs, heartbeat monitors attached to GPS on every Marine, cameras in guns, a laptop that a company commander can open and see where everyone is, etc. Say in 20 years we develope battery power to that extent and are able to also create a laser that has rechargeable batteries. How much further along will guided munitions be?

I didn't say that fielding lasers wouldn't be possible in the future. I just said that they wouldn't be practicle as guided munitions that would have taken over by then.

Think the 5th element where that alien fired that one bullet and the rest followed them. More of that and less of star wars will be the future.

As far as logistics go, bullets take up a lot less space than food, spare parts, other equipment (guns, sights, wargear, E-tool, clothes, fuel, explosives, and the like). Any force will have to be supported and ammunition is one of many things to support. Rechargable batteries aren't fairing very well in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, and you want all of our weapons to depend on it? The laser still offers no battlefield advantage over non-guided mutions and is still many years away.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

davespil said:


> The laser still offers no battlefield advantage over non-guided mutions and is still many years away.


You can't really use we don't have lasers that effective now as an argument as to why they won't have effective lasers in the future. Because we are talking about a civilisation 38000 years in the future (ok a fictional one but still...) If we can have a man portable effective laser weapon in 100 years then we've done it in plenty of time. :grin:


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

jaysen said:


> Which would bring the trooper's cost to 7pts which is > 5.


You said a bolter was more valuable than a guardsman not a guardsman with a bolter more valuable than a guardsman with a lasgun. And if you meant fluffwise you shouldn't have cited game stats.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I know, Samules. I was being facetious. I'm sorry if it came across wrong. 

Aren't you guys as tired of this silly and pointless discussion as i am?


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Indeed, we should abandon this thread before it becomes another "Forum Formula".


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im going to go by the Last Chancers novels. In the third book where they're on Armeggedon they ask a Jungle Fighter why he uses the Autogun against orks. The Las Gun has more shots, longer distance, and more accurate. He replies the Autogun is scary. Its louder and unlike a seared burn it is more gory and painful in effect. 

Fact is Lasguns are massproduce and Autoguns are not.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned that as a laser is light, it travels at the speed of light, whereas a bullet travels much slower. The tech behind the las gun was already mentioned. The power supply is incredibly powerful, it recharges in heat (not just sunlight), and is light weight. The flak armor was mentioned to reflect and protect guardsmen from this. Its very possible to do that by deflecting, absorbing or any number of other methods of protecting from light. (Let it be stated that light is electro magnetic waves. There are plenty of ways to bend, alter, reflect, change, ect.). Bolters and guided munitions were mentioned but honestly, bolter ammo is .75 caliber. Carry 300+ rounds of that, armor, supplies, gear, ect and you'll be drowning in your own sweat and exhausted. No condition to fight.


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