# What if the primarchs were never scattered by Chaos?



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

As the thread title asks, what outcome would this have resulted in if the Emperor's sons were never lost to begin with. This obviously would have prevented major changes in some, such as Sanguinis' wings, or other mutations, as well as their defining character traits; especially one like Lorgar's fanaticism with worship and faith. 

Another big question would be, how exactly would the Emperor raise them and how effective it would be? Considering the Emperor was considerably detached from humanity due to his many centuries of existence shaving off lots of his compassion and his often "over-the-top" reactions to some of the Primarch's mistakes/problems, would they end up more or less the same? 

Trying to see him raise them from square one reminds me of this pic...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Well the mutations wouldn't change, if it wasn't cause by the warp, but their personalities would. I think they would act more like the emp.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

Such a bad parent, he's already lost two of them!


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

geez there are twenty of them cut the guy some slack, they have yet to go through their teens yet thats when the single (even godlike)father gets screwed. hehehehe


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

As for what the Primarchs would have been like, I think we have a good example of that already. Absent mutations, aberrations, psychological problems, and enjoying an upbringing/education that prepared him for the challenges of war and politics, I think Roboute Guilliman is the template for what an untampered Primarch would have most been like.

From there, if we take the proposal "Prospero Burns" presents at face value, the Emperor had plans and roles for each Primarch in mind. We can thus modify the above "Guilliman Template" to fit said role.

Would it have worked? I think so. Except for the most "broken" of Primarchs, each of the twenty sons seems to have instinctively recognized the Emperor and willingly inserted himself in the scheme of things determined for him. This would imply that the genetic and psychic manipulation they underwent as part of their creation process went beyond the standard child-rearing "I need a father" phase.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malcador would've probably been known as the Imperial nanny. I can't see the Emperor going "coochy coochy coo" and burping baby primarchs.

Seriously though, Phoebus has summed it up pretty well I think. I also think the Great Crusade would have been much more succesful because each legion would have had their primarch to lead them from the beginning. 

It probably would have caused to the primarchs to be a lot less 'human' so to speak, but it would've prevented them from developing the character flaws which the chaos gods eventually took advantage of, if their upbringing had been shaped by the Emperor.

Who knows, maybe the Emperor would even have been warmer to all his sons and trusted them more if he'd been able to bond with them from the beginning.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don`t think he was overly concerned. He witnessed them being scattered and did nothing to stop it.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I don`t think he was overly concerned. He witnessed them being scattered and did nothing to stop it.


Yup, and look how well that turned out. It blew up in his face and then swung around to bite him in the ass.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

To be honest I don't really see the Emp as giving a monkeys either way, I think he was pissed that he "lost" his greatest generals but to be honest I think the way he always thought of them was more as means to an end. That end being galactic domination. So in answer to your question, who knows, would they still develop their character traits on their own? Nature Vs Nurture of course.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I don`t think he was overly concerned. He witnessed them being scattered and did nothing to stop it.


Or was unable to do anything about it.



Gromrir Silverblade said:


> To be honest I don't really see the Emp as giving a monkeys either way, ...


Really? Why then, was such a big part of the Great Crusade the search for the Primarchs? He maintained contact with the one Primarch capable of psychic communication, and attempted messages with at least one human adoptive parent (Guilliman's).



> I think he was pissed that he "lost" his greatest generals but to be honest I think the way he always thought of them was more as means to an end. That end being galactic domination.


It goes without saying that they were always meant to serve a purpose, but we shouldn't rush to reduce complex relationships to the lowest common denominator. We have yet to see the Emperor truly interact with one of his sons, save for times of crisis (Nikaea) and/or sanction (Monarchia).

But here's something to remember--Horus truly felt abandonment at the Emperor's decision to return to Terra. Now, the Great Crusade certainly would not allow for each and every Primarch to have shared time with the Emperor, but Horus' reaction would not be logical had this been a one-sided relationship--the Primarch offering the unrequited love of a son to his father.

I'd be willing to bet that, while he is absolutely ruthless and willing to swing the metaphorical big stick (sanctions and stuff) for the ultimate good of Humanity, at the end of the day the Emperor was capable of complex, meaningful relationships. These being akin to the familial bonds between many of our own history's ruthless, war-like families.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Personally i always thought that the Primarchs had been created with distinctly different aspects, as its said that even before the legions were reunited with their genetic father, they shared aspects of their personality and persuasions. So the thought that they would all have been like Guillemann, although valid, doesn't seem quite right to me. For instance, the difference between Lion El'Johnson and Leman Russ. Both get scattered to wilderness death worlds, and spend their formative years without human contact, yet while Russ becomes a loud, outspoken extrovert, Johnson is insular, secretive and brooding. With such similar backgrounds, if they were both created equal, then surely their personalities should have been more alike?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Grokfog,

Where is that stated? That the Legions shared aspects of their Primarchs' personality and persuasions before they met, that is. The only example of something along those lines that comes to mind is Magnus' sons suffering from mutations and having a higher percentage of psykers... but that's a genetic issue, not a personality issue. 

Also, I'm not sure the El'Jonson/Russ comparison is that apropos. The Lion was found alone in the wilderness, and then raised within a rather monastic order of knights. Russ was raised by wolves (supposedly) and then found by viking-esque warrior-tribesmen. Each was profoundly affected by his environment.

And, since I always have to defend the Lion... Jonson might be described as insular in a very loose sense of the word, given that insular most often means "provincial", "narrow", "not receptive to new ideas", etc. If anything, the Lion seems to be highly adaptive. Judging him on _what we've seen so far,_ he has been secretive only about Luther's conspiracy and about Calibanite lore that could be devastating in the wrong hands. He can be described as brooding only in the time period after _his best friend almost let him get killed._

Again, these don't really strike me as pre-determined traits. Rather, they are traits he developed given events that affected him profoundly.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

you may have to bear with me for information as to where thats stated, i'm actually at work, but i'll dig it out when i get home. Also, i'm a bit of a fluff dinosaur, in that i'm about a decade behind, so what i believe may have been rewritten, as so much else has been  i will double check my information asap and give a decent response when i can


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

No worries! I ask more out of curiosity than anything else.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Although its not the exact quote i was looking for, i have just stumbled across this section in the latest Space Wolves codex, in the "History of the Space Wolves" section that states "The Primarchs were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each was created differently with his own unique powers." So that covers my belief that they wouldn't have all turned out like Guillemann, as they were all designed from the start to be unique. The search continues for the actual quote i was looking for, my lexicanum servitors will not receive their evening dose of WD40 until it is found!

*Quick Addendum* Just discovered a quote in the dark angels codex relating to Jonson's personality, it says "Where Jonson was temperamental and taciturn, Luther was charming and charismatic. Where Luther was rash and emotional, Jonson was a brilliant strategist and unstoppable once decided on a course of action" so thats probably where i got the image of him being a dark and brooding individual


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

If I am not mistaken, this is actually stated in the Horus Heresy Series. I'll have to find the specific books and page numbers, ect. Although I have a profound feeling it was mentioned in probably Horus Rising, False Gods, or at least First Heretic. Although, again, I am far from certain.

The conversation in question takes place between an Astartes-Human and its more or less giving examples of how each legion fought prior to finding their Primarch and how each seemed to be similar to how their primarch eventually turned out. One example were the World Eaters, formerly the War Hounds, and their fighting style was vicious and savage -- similar to Angrons. While the Iron Warriors were stoic and quite -- similar to Perturabo.

I'll do some scanning and see if I can't pull it up.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> As for what the Primarchs would have been like, I think we have a good example of that already. Absent mutations, aberrations, psychological problems, and enjoying an upbringing/education that prepared him for the challenges of war and politics, I think Roboute Guilliman is the template for what an untampered Primarch would have most been like.
> 
> From there, if we take the proposal "Prospero Burns" presents at face value, the Emperor had plans and roles for each Primarch in mind. We can thus modify the above "Guilliman Template" to fit said role.


It is unfortunate then that the 'Guilliman Template' is not easily adaptable by its very nature. Guilliman's basic personal drive is for order. How can that be adapted to the chaos (not Chaos) seeking primarchs like Curze, Alpharius, Angron, Russ, Corax, etc. There drive to explore, adapt and dismantle is what made them (and their legions) what they were. 




> Would it have worked? I think so. Except for the most "broken" of Primarchs, each of the twenty sons seems to have instinctively recognized the Emperor and willingly inserted himself in the scheme of things determined for him. This would imply that the genetic and psychic manipulation they underwent as part of their creation process went beyond the standard child-rearing "I need a father" phase.


Interesting you consider Ferrus Manus, Russ and Vulkan to be broken, but not Curze, Angron, Sanguinious or Magnus (those touched most by the Dark Gods). That the Primarchs adapted to their roles is to my mind a demonstration of their own greatest, not some pre-programed obediance instinct.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Grokfog said:


> Although its not the exact quote i was looking for, i have just stumbled across this section in the latest Space Wolves codex, in the "History of the Space Wolves" section that states "The Primarchs were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each was created differently with his own unique powers." So that covers my belief that they wouldn't have all turned out like Guillemann, as they were all designed from the start to be unique.


Oh, don't get me wrong. I meant that their _personalities_ would likely have defaulted to something like Guilliman's--princes and generals raised for war and military under a more or less Terran school of thought. 



> *Quick Addendum* Just discovered a quote in the dark angels codex relating to Jonson's personality, it says "Where Jonson was temperamental and taciturn, Luther was charming and charismatic. Where Luther was rash and emotional, Jonson was a brilliant strategist and unstoppable once decided on a course of action" so thats probably where i got the image of him being a dark and brooding individual


Aren't the occasional contradictions in the Codices interesting? Jonson is temperamental and taciturn--good thing he has Luther next to him. Luther is rash and emotional, which is much like saying he's temperamental--good thing he has the Lion next to him! No wonder Caliban exploded... :grin:



BlackGuard said:


> The conversation in question takes place between an Astartes-Human and its more or less giving examples of how each legion fought prior to finding their Primarch and how each seemed to be similar to how their primarch eventually turned out. One example were the World Eaters, formerly the War Hounds, and their fighting style was vicious and savage -- similar to Angrons. While the Iron Warriors were stoic and quite -- similar to Perturabo.


I don't remember said conversation, but I do remember there was a marked difference between the War Hounds and their Primarch. The War Hounds were ruthless, but everything we see about them in "After Desh'ea" indicates a professional, disciplined force. Heck, Kharn even goes to meet Angron in dress uniform, compared to the jumpsuits and robes used by other Astartes. :grin:

By contrast, the World Eaters under Angron--even before falling to Khorne--gained infamy as terror-troops and wholesale butchers. An affinity for close combat and shock assaults became the order of the day.



MEQinc said:


> It is unfortunate then that the 'Guilliman Template' is not easily adaptable by its very nature.


It's not? And here I thought Guilliman successfully brought under compliance (in fact, made model subjects out of them) more worlds than any other Primarch. Given the frankly ridiculous variety of cultures, governments, environments, and armies he would have faced this indicates a _great_ degree of adaptability.



> There drive to explore, adapt and dismantle is what made them (and their legions) what they were.


Actually, what made them what they were was their way of upbringing, their environment, and their culture. Angron, for instance, would absolutely not have been what he was had he landed on another planet. Cerebral implants defined him, not a drive to explore or adapt. His and the Night Haunter's sociopathic tendencies were absolutely unnecessary to the Great Crusade.



> Interesting you consider Ferrus Manus, Russ and Vulkan to be broken, but not Curze, Angron, Sanguinious or Magnus (those touched most by the Dark Gods).


Nope, quite the opposite. I consider Curze and Angron to be "broken", and Perturabo and Mortarion to be "somewhat malfunctioning". And these qualifications aren't just based on how they felt about the Emperor.

By contrast, if you recall, Russ, Manus, and Vulkan all challenged the Emperor _before_ he revealed his true nature to them.



> That the Primarchs adapted to their roles is to my mind a demonstration of their own greatest, not some pre-programed obediance instinct.


I'm sorry, but, assuming the Index Astartes articles are accurate (and one could argue that they are largely mythological, given the passage of time and corruption of data), it stretches the boundaries of coincidence for so many of these beings--genetically and psychically brought to life by the Emperor--to have an _inherent understanding of who he was_ once he revealed himself, having never met him before.

Cheers,
P.


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## .Kevin. (Jan 10, 2011)

They would have been standard marine generals pretty much moreso emperor like, you'd need to remember all their personalities or who they are now is because of how they were raised.


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## imperialfist13 (Feb 2, 2011)

Horus maybe wouldnt of been Warmaster, the Emperor qould have got them to fulfill there original destinies whatever thay may of been.

I dont for one second think it was ever part of the plot to have them taken but the Emperor could of only taught so much and at such a time, my thought is that the emperor scattered them himself or controlled to some degree where they went to live and grow amongst people. When he Chastises Lorgar he very much implies that it is mankinds imperium and not his, i think that he wanted them to grow up and learn humility and humanity from the people.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Would they have been different people? Yes of course. The better question is what was the Emperor's plans with them. I was always under the impression he planned to use them as progenitors for a new race. So I imagine that he would have just got on with that and moved the time table for the Great Crusade around.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

imperialfist13 said:


> Horus maybe wouldnt of been Warmaster, the Emperor qould have got them to fulfill there original destinies whatever thay may of been.


Ooh that's got me thinking - If the Primarchs hadn't been scattered, who would have been Warmaster I wonder?

Another thought, would Sanguinius have had his wings and would Magnus have had 2 eyes?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sanguinius would very likely not have his wings. In virtually ever description of him, his wings are implied to be because of the pods being scattered through the warp, infact in some sources its outright stated they were i believe.

As for Magnus one eye. Well i swear the status of his lost eye changes in every book he has featured in so far and the different sources. Some state he only had one eye when he came out of his pod. Some of the books of describe the area was his eye should have been as a mess of scar tissue, implying it was lost, others state it as being as if an eye was never there. And then now Thousand Sons says that


he lost his eye when he made his deal with Tzeentch


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Wow, lots of great responses, thanks for all the input. So far it seems that with the Big E right at the forefront with all the primarchs, the great crusade would have gone a lot faster and effecient since all the primarchs would have lead them from day one. And under the tutelage of the Emperor himself a lot would obviously have developed different or at least significantly modified versions of what they were when born on various planets. 

However one prospect that intrigues me is that due to the Emperor personally being with Primarchs from day one, and "presumably" become more close to them since they were never scattered, would there still be enough insecurities and problems with the Primarchs for Chaos to turn them against the Emperor and cause the Heresy? One of the main reasons for the Heresy was because of the many underlying problems some of the Primarchs had with their relationships with the Big E, and since Lorgar wouldn't have been such a religious zealot and gone off to discover the Chaos Gods (and thankfully Kor Phaeron and Erebus wouldn't be part of the Word Bearers either), would the worst events been averted? Also how would things have changed with the two missing legions? But the biggest question of all would be what names would have been given to them? It be funny to go up to a primarch, ask his name and in reply he ominously says,....."My name is Bob....mortal!"


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Ooh that's got me thinking - If the Primarchs hadn't been scattered, who would have been Warmaster I wonder?


Whoever would have had the best record.

What makes this an interesting proposal is that, absent the scattering, the Primarchs would have been raised on equal footing. So it's not that easy to say "So and so, due to his charisma, or his skills, etc."



Grimskul25 said:


> ... would there still be enough insecurities and problems with the Primarchs for Chaos to turn them against the Emperor and cause the Heresy? One of the main reasons for the Heresy was because of the many underlying problems some of the Primarchs had with their relationships with the Big E, ...


No, actually the biggest problems the Primarchs had was due to the scattering itself, no the Emperor.

- Alpharius...


... did not actually rebel against the Emperor due to any issues he had with him.

- Angron was already insane/unstable thanks to his gladiator implants.
- Horus needed to be poisoned and brainwashed/seduced by misleading visions.
- Fulgrim was only corrupted thanks to a Chaos weapon.
- Lorgar would never have been a religious zealot had it not been for the scattering.
- Magnus never wanted to betray the Emperor.
- Mortarion we don't know enough about.
- Night Haunter's ideology was a result of his upbringing in Nostramo
- Perturabo... might be the one Primarch who rebelled because of rivalries, though it's hinted that Horus' gift to him may have been Chaotic in nature and thus corrupted him.



> But the biggest question of all would be what names would have been given to them? It be funny to go up to a primarch, ask his name and in reply he ominously says,....."My name is Bob....mortal!"


We know at least one their names... Konrad Curze. Unless we want to interpret this solely as GW humor, then the Emperor might have chosen names with an eye toward history's past. Alternately, he gave this name to Night Haunter because he saw parallels between his son and the fictional character who succumbs to darkness... and only came up with the name after he sensed what had happened to him.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Where is that stated? That the Legions shared aspects of their Primarchs' personality and persuasions before they met, that is.


While it doesn't list all of them, it certainly states than some legions did.
_A Thousand Sons_ p.384


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Is this the quote you're referring to?

"War forges a man’s character, and that is no less true of a Legion. Whether it was the echoes of our gene-sires in our blood, I do not know, but each of the Legions began to take shape beyond simply a name. The Ultramarines gained a reputation for order and discipline, fighters who learned from each engagement and applied that knowledge to the next. The World Eaters, well, you can imagine how they learned to fight.”

I have an eBook copy of "A Thousand Sons" and our page counts don't correspond... This was the closest thing I could find, and Ahriman himself admits he doesn't know if it's due to a genetic link to the Primarchs.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, BlackGuard mentioned it was an Astartes - Human conversation and that's the only one that came to mind. Whether it actually means anything or not I don't know, but it does show that the legions weren't just all generic and did in fact have a predisposition towards certain characteristics and ways of fighting very early on in the crusade already.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, again, Ahriman states he doesn't know if that was the case (that it was generic). And, if anything, his viewpoint is in contrast to how the World Eaters learned how to fight--as shown in "After Desh'ea".


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

True, but it's also not as though Ahriman had any other suggestions as to why the legions did act in their particular ways. But like I said, it could mean nothing. As for the WE, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that the HH series has contradicted itself.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

True enough!


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

Why is Corax looking at porn?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

he's always sneaking around?


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Grimskul25 said:


> Wow, lots of great responses, thanks... , would there still be enough insecurities and problems with the Primarchs for Chaos to turn them against the Emperor and cause the Heresy? ... Also how would things have changed with the two missing legions? But the biggest question of all would be what names would have been given to them? It be funny to go up to a primarch, ask his name and in reply he ominously says,....."My name is Bob....mortal!"



In relation to whether any Primarchs would go Chaos-loving, I would imagine no not any chance at all. Their scattering by Chaos and upbringing and subsequent treatment by the Emperor in the context of them being scattered was WHY 9 of them went the way of the messy psychos (as has been pointed out). HOWEVER I would not rule out argument to the contrary. For example, a large (but not only) part of Lorgar's dissatisfaction with the Emperor was his hiding from the Primarchs the existence of the Chaos gods (First Heretic). Could this have been the seed? Probably not, as this fact was set in the context of Lorgars acquired fervour that may not have been present had the scattering not occurred, and furthermore, the E may have revealed Chaos to the Primarchs from the onset had he not been so protective/insecure in the current lore. More examples exist on this one.

Whilst I agree that nature and nurture BOTH have a role to play in an individuals character, in mere mortals and mighty god-men alike, I suggest it was only the upbringing of the Primarchs, the fact of their scattering and the politics that played out directly related to their scattering that had any influence on their turning to Chaos.

The only thing I can think of that might sow the seeds of dissent would be if the E still decided to declare one of them Warmaster, whilst he completed his Webway project. However I imagine he would have waited (remember that he was rushed into doing so) until the Galaxy had been conquered before locking himself away.

In any case, like all fluff, its all academic of course - the Primarchs were only allowed to come into being by Chaos so that 9 could be turned to Chaos - the Primarchs would never have come into being anyway had the Chaos gods not allowed their creation and subsequent scattering: their goal all along being to turn the galaxy for 10,000+ years into a bloody, demented bowel movement. Any comments on this? 

As for their names - maybe E was going to be poetic about it all and name them after great leaders from human history (as they deserved to be).

So, we have Ceasar of the 13th legion, Genghis of the 5th, Erik of the 6th, Jesus of the 9th, Satan of the 15th...


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

> So, we have Ceasar of the 13th legion, Genghis of the 5th, Erik of the 6th, Jesus of the 9th, Satan of the 15th..


James Bond for the 20th?



> In any case, like all fluff, its all academic of course - the Primarchs were only allowed to come into being by Chaos so that 9 could be turned to Chaos - the Primarchs would never have come into being anyway had the Chaos gods not allowed their creation and subsequent scattering: their goal all along being to turn the galaxy for 10,000+ years into a bloody, demented bowel movement. Any comments on this?


The Gods didnt create the primarchs, the emperor used the warp to give them souls, theres a big difference..


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

There have been a few comments about the Emperor lacking compassion or having lost touch emotionally with humanity... either because of his millenia-long lifespan or knowing his goals won't be achieved if executed through the lense of humanistic values. I would beg to differ with this avenue of criticism.

I think the Emperor, if the Primarchs had not been scattered by by Chaos, would have made an incredible... um... father, but more along the lines of Phillip II of Macedonia was for Alexander the Great. He wouldn't be changing diapers and bottle feeding, but he would be pushing their capabilities and arranging for a mind-blowing breadth of education, with the full knowledge of their potential. Then there's also the GC sprinting out of the blocks and not having to build up a head of steam over 200 or so years.

The criticisms of the Emperor's various sanctions and how they were counter-productive to disciplining the Primarchs, as an example of how he didn't understand them as people, also don't really make sense to me. By the time the Big E started slapping the Primarchs, almost all had been with him for at least a century if not more. Now tell me, how long does it take you to understand your own bosses 'do not cross' lines. Compare that to fully-developed centuries-old genius-level leaders that do things like, oh, destroy a planet... or start their own religion... or commit mass (>1,000,000) murder - simply for the jollies of it. If not explicitly stated to each Primarch, the Emperor certainly identified all his expectations through the Imperial Truth for the Primarchs to understand. Stopping short of outright destruction, how should he have dealt with these transgressions, considering these smartest-of-smartest already had decades of intellectual intercourse with him?

I think many of the issues between the Primarchs, and also with the Emperor, would have gone away had they been raised directly on Terra under supervision. The one issue I don't think would have been avoided was having some eventually turn to Chaos. I say this as their direct upbrining on Terra would only have increased their arrogance, not attenuated it... Fulgrim and Horus were two prime examples of how their arrogance gave Chaos an in, which would have been more wide open otherwise, and they were also two of the first to be converted.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Then there's also the GC sprinting out of the blocks and not having to build up a head of steam over 200 or so years.


People keep saying this, but I don't get it. We don't have any evidence to suggest that the early GC struggled. Plus, having the Primarchs around might have slowed it down or delayed its launch. Remember after all, that the Primarchs all grew up while the GC was going on and that by the time the Legions found them they were fully ready to lead. If they'd been present from the beginning than they would've been babies. So either they're not leading the Legions, on account of needing to be raised first. Or the Emperor delays the launch of the crusade to allow them to grow up first. And then of course you have the risk of having too many cooks in the kitchen. At the start of the Great Crusade humanity was launching from one, relatively small, area. At this time the Emperor was sole commander, and likely had pretty direct oversight over the Legions, then as the Crusade spread out and he needed other commanders to take over in other regions the Primarchs started to appear (and fresh worlds to raise the Legions they need/want/deserve to lead). But if the Primarchs were there from the beginning then you have 21 super-human beings (all with roughly equal authority) taking command of probably a couple Legions (at most) worth of troops. That's a recipe for disaster in my books, or at least for lots of far older and far more bitter internal feuds than the ones that wound up splitting the Primarchs anyway.



> The criticisms of the Emperor's various sanctions and how they were counter-productive to disciplining the Primarchs, as an example of how he didn't understand them as people, also don't really make sense to me. By the time the Big E started slapping the Primarchs, almost all had been with him for at least a century if not more. Now tell me, how long does it take you to understand your own bosses 'do not cross' lines.


The Primarchs recognizing the "bosses 'do not cross' line" and the Emperor's punishment of them are two different issues. 

The Emperor can be said to not understand his sons because he did not understand that the manner in which he punished them would not only be ineffective but would often have the opposite effect. The Emperor didn't understand that using the Ultramarines to punish Lorgar, and to do so by burning one of his favoured worlds, he would push Lorgar to find true divinity. That was his mistake. That mistake was based, seemingly, on ignorance about his sons nature. Lorgar's nature is such that he needs a greater truth to hold on to. The Emperor did not recognize this about Lorgar, he did not, could not, or would not see it. And so he treated Lorgar in a manner that sent him crying out for another font for worship. 

That some of the Primarchs failed to recognize their bosses 'do not cross' line, is largely on their heads. Though I feel that it is also at least partially the Emperor's fault, due to poor communication. For example: Angron is often cited as an example of a rogue Primarch, because his Legion doesn't know when to stop. Yet, Angron is never punished for this and his Legion is never held to account for their actions. Angron, at no point in his history, makes any secret of the fact that he believes Space Marines are built to destroy the foe utterly, he goes so far as to publicly rename his Legion the World Eaters (hardly a name that evokes ideas of restraint). When he and the Emperor first meet, face-to-face, it is made quite clear that Angron is a mad-man and a butcher, indeed his first act as head of his Legion is to beat several commanders to death with his bare hands. At no point does the Emperor take Angron aside and explain to him that Space Marines should show restraint. At no point does he attempt to influence Angron into less violent behavior. At no point does he make an even cursory attempt to remove the Butcher's Nails (something I have a hard time believing he couldn't do). Angron believes what he believes because the Emperor has never once stated it to be wrong and further has never implied it to be wrong. The Space Wolves believe much the same thing that the World Eaters do, and behave in a very similar manner. And yet they are one of the most loyal Legions out there. Not, I think, because of any difference in their beliefs, but simply because the Emperor abused Angron for his own gain but did not do so to Russ.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Actually if you want an example of a primarch most like one who had been raised on terra, surely you should look to Horus who was with the Emperor the longest? For names perhaps Napoleon for the 16th and Arthur Wellsley for the 7th.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Harry Potter


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Emperor was walking a very thin line by challenging Chaos, so much rested on his shoulders and he had little, if any, room for failure or delay. The Primarchs were the key; they were the tools the Emperor needed to defeat Chaos, and the tools Chaos needed to defeat the Emperor. By scattering the Primarchs and thus making them much more susceptible to corruption, Chaos struck the first blow. The Emperor had to deal with the cards he was dealt; with time against him, and his prescience increasingly failing him, he needed the Primarchs to conquer the galaxy.

If he had the luxury of time and room for error, I imagine the Emperor would have considered purging several Primarchs (Angron, Curze, Lorgar?) in order to remove the possibility of temptation. But he didn't; the Primarchs were desperately needed to spearhead the Great Crusade and bring humanity under the iron rule of Terra. Allowing the likes of Angron or Curze to wield the power of an entire Astartes Legion was always going to be a risk, the Emperor would have known that, but taking calculated gambles is not necessary reckless, especially in the position the Emperor was in. After all, isolated and flippant rebellions by single Legions could have been contained, albeit at a great cost. What the Emperor didn't expect was a rebellion orchestrated by the likes of Horus and Lorgar, which ultimately managed to turn an entire third of the Imperium's military machine against him. The one Primarch that the Emperor seemed to believe was beyond corruption, was the one on which the battle between the Emperor and Chaos ultimately hinged, and that was Horus. The Emperor took the risk, and it didn't pay off.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Digg40k said:


> Harry Potter


NO anything but that HERESY, DOUBLE HERESY, KILL IT WITH FIRE







. I read a fanfic once that introduced an ordo hereticus inquisitor to Hogwarts, funniest thing ever.
http://frothshield.tumblr.com/post/18035825616/the-hogwarts-heresy


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## naglfar (Aug 19, 2012)

I think the crusade would have been over quickly, without any of them falling to chaos, and then each primarch could have taken up a specific role as per the Emperor's design. It's been stated that their intended roles after the Crusade was to be guardians and key holders.

Personally I still see Horus being put in charge of the Imperium's military might as it mentions he was always intended as an heir in Prospero Burns. Then it's likely each Segmentae would have been under a Primarch's control, Solar probably Dorn and Ultima likely Guilliman. Then the Emperor could have opened his portal to the webway and placed Magnus on the Golden Throne to run it. The other Primarchs would likely have then lead their armies into the webway and cleared out the Dark Eldar and then Mankind could have built it's own cities, Comorragh style, in the webway and had no more need for conventional warp travel. Likely the vast webway would have been divided into the domain of some of the other Primarchs.

After that, I think the galaxy would have known peace, which would have quieted the warp and enabled the Emperor to bring down Chaos itself. 

After that I think the Emperor would have hunted down the Necron tomb worlds and destroyed them before they could arise. Next job would have been to prepare for the eventual coming of the Tyranids and meet them with a unified unbreakable Imperium.

Course Chaos put paid to that plan. Lorgar you are a tosspot


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> the Primarchs were desperately needed to spearhead the Great Crusade and bring humanity under the iron rule of Terra. Allowing the likes of Angron or Curze to wield the power of an entire Astartes Legion was always going to be a risk, the Emperor would have known that, but taking calculated gambles is not necessary reckless, especially in the position the Emperor was in.


I do not really agree that he should have been desperate to rely on them like that. A loss of 3 out of 18 is survivable in the long run, especially as it allows him to focus more on the remainder, improving his chances of success with them. IMO, he kinda botched the GC after all the buildup by getting impatient. He was in a good position, the force of attrition was with humanity. The various Xenos races were fairly static, and a few hundred years was not going to be a paradigm shift in the power balance. I mean, the crusades were offensive, its not like humanity was fighting off an invasion. When you are the aggressor, you can set the timetable. 

As it is, he shook thier hands, gave them a Legion, and sent them out to the frontier by themselves. I mean, except for Horus. No wonder the others were jealous. Maybe someone else can dig one up, but I cant think of any text that shows him fighting at anyone's side but Horus. Since he didnt retire till after they were all found, that means he basically banished the rest or most of them away from him. 

Take Lorgar, if the Emperor had spent a decade or two out with him in his area, he could have smoothed over his awkward teenage god-worship without causing so much butt-hurt, and probably would have realized Kar Phaeron was bad news and "killed him in his sleep" I mean re-assigned him. A little bit of a personal touch goes a long way, and he could have spent a decade with each Primarch and still had time to spare before Ullanor.


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## naglfar (Aug 19, 2012)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> I do not really agree that he should have been desperate to rely on them like that. A loss of 3 out of 18 is survivable in the long run, especially as it allows him to focus more on the remainder, improving his chances of success with them. IMO, he kinda botched the GC after all the buildup by getting impatient. He was in a good position, the force of attrition was with humanity. The various Xenos races were fairly static, and a few hundred years was not going to be a paradigm shift in the power balance. I mean, the crusades were offensive, its not like humanity was fighting off an invasion. When you are the aggressor, you can set the timetable.
> 
> As it is, he shook thier hands, gave them a Legion, and sent them out to the frontier by themselves. I mean, except for Horus. No wonder the others were jealous. Maybe someone else can dig one up, but I cant think of any text that shows him fighting at anyone's side but Horus. Since he didnt retire till after they were all found, that means he basically banished the rest or most of them away from him.
> 
> Take Lorgar, if the Emperor had spent a decade or two out with him in his area, he could have smoothed over his awkward teenage god-worship without causing so much butt-hurt, and probably would have realized Kar Phaeron was bad news and "killed him in his sleep" I mean re-assigned him. A little bit of a personal touch goes a long way, and he could have spent a decade with each Primarch and still had time to spare before Ullanor.



The Emperor is stated as spending time with each Primarch to make sure they were ready to lead their legion, although the novel series seems to make light of that with everyone except Magnus and Horus, and it's pretty much stated that he gave up on Angron and that he spent little, if any, time with Alpharius, likely because Horus has put in the time and the Emperor trusted him.

Personally I tend to not be too hard on the Emperor over this one, I mean it's easy to look at the likes of Angron and Curze and go 'what the hell was he thinking' but in Outcast Dead it states that Angron was found over a hundred years before the GC so he had been a loyal, if brutal servant for over a century before the Emperor retired to Terra and left him to it. 

Curze on the other hand, seems to have been found very late along with Alpharius and the Emperor probably didn't spend a lot of time with either of those, however, it looks like he did send two of his most stable and sensible primarchs to train them in his stead, Fulgrim and Horus respectively.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> A loss of 3 out of 18 is survivable in the long run,


It's actually 5 of 20 (two lost Legions, Curze, Angron and probably Lorgar), that's a quarter of them. A quarter of the greatest military beings in the history of ever, killed because they've got some personality issues? Curze and Angron at the very least were highly effective military commanders, and their legions were used to great effect throughout the Crusade. Yes, they went to far on occasion but so did the Wolves. The Emperor decided to sacrifice long term mental stability for short term gains in this case, choosing to use the Night Lords and World Eaters for as long as he could and then get rid of them quietly (like the two lost Legions) when he could no longer control them. The problem was that, unlikely the other two, Curze and Angron managed to last long enough to join up with a far greater cause. 



> He was in a good position, the force of attrition was with humanity. The various Xenos races were fairly static, and a few hundred years was not going to be a paradigm shift in the power balance.


The Xenos races were not static, the Eldar had just suffered the Fall. In the space of maybe a week, one of the greatest Empires the galaxy has ever seen collapsed into a swirling hole of nothing. You don't think that altered the situation? The Emperor had to act quickly, to fill up the power vacuum before someone else did. If the Emperor had not launched the Great Crusade when he did so very much could have changed: the Eldar could've recovered and returned to form (making them an almost unmatchable threat), the Orks could've spread out and multiplied massively (as it was the Eldar Empire keeping them largely in check) or some other empire (perhaps one of the thousand small ones the Crusade crushed) could've spread out and taken humanities worlds. The Emperor's window of opportunity was slim (relatively speaking) and he had to act swiftly and decisively to secure it.



> When you are the aggressor, you can set the timetable.


Unless the reason for your aggression is time-sensitive, as it often is (and as mentioned, was in this case).


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

:goodpost:
Very well thought out posts, nicely articulated, I love a good debate that doesn't degenerate into name calling. I will try to add something new to this, I would like to answer a few points here. 



naglfar said:


> The Emperor is stated as spending time with each Primarch to make sure they were ready to lead their legion, although the novel series seems to make light of that with everyone except Magnus and Horus, and it's pretty much stated that he gave up on Angron


Yeah, it kind of seems like he was rubber stamping them at the end there. Still, a personal touch goes a long way. I mean, a decade with each legion would have added up to a little under 2 centuries. Not much compared to the big picture of the crusade, which went on for quite a while if I remember right.



MEQinc said:


> It's actually 5 of 20 (two lost Legions, Curze, Angron and probably Lorgar), that's a quarter of them.


Agreed. I did not count the other two because it seems like they didn't even make it to the point when all the other Primarchs were found. So when Alpharius was discovered and given the XX legion, there were already only 18. 



> Curze and Angron at the very least were highly effective military commanders, and their legions were used to great effect throughout the Crusade.


Also true, and Lorgar was unequaled at creating worlds which were loyal, and since he brainwashed them all, they would probably stay loyal to the Empire instead of being brought to compliance, only to rebel as soon as the SM left. There are no fanatics like converts. 



> The Xenos races were not static, the Eldar had just suffered the Fall. In the space of maybe a week.... The Emperor had to act quickly, to fill up the power vacuum before someone else did.


However, the Eldar Fall was an empire destroying event, I think the severity would have kept them weak and pliant for several millenia, more than enough time to proceed cautiously. I mean, it was worse than the Heresy was to humans, and look at what that did to the Empire. The Orks with more stroke is not a good thing though.



> The Emperor's window of opportunity was slim (relatively speaking) and he had to act swiftly and decisively to secure it.
> Unless the reason for your aggression is time-sensitive, as it often is (and as mentioned, was in this case).


Well said, but he made one of the classic blunders!








He outpaced the supply train(figuratively). The Legions kept conquering and conquering, without taking the time to consolidate their hold on these worlds. The only one who did was Lorgar, and he got chastised for being slow. But they should have been protecting their back. Rommel made the same mistake racing for Tobruk, he outpaced his ability to secure his flanks. 

On another note, most of the Legions were competing with, instead of complementing each other. The Emperor should never have allowed that to happen. As a leader, he should have made them shake paws and make up. Or at least be civil to each other. Maybe if the Primarchs were together more, they would get along better, and there would be less bruised egos and bitter tears. Its awful hard to hate someone when you depend on them on a daily basis, especially in combat. Respect would come in time, and respect is the death of hate. 
However, keeping them together in task forces would slow down the pace a little. It would allow them to cement their hold on the way, so the territory would be better secured. A gamble either way.

Wow. That was alot longer than it seemed at first. Sorry


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> He outpaced the supply train(figuratively). The Legions kept conquering and conquering, without taking the time to consolidate their hold on these worlds.
> 
> The only one who did was Lorgar, and he got chastised for being slow. But they should have been protecting their back. Rommel made the same mistake racing for Tobruk, he outpaced his ability to secure his flanks.


imo, the reason why the crusade went as fast as it did, was because the Emperor didnt want to let the Chaos gods gain more momentum among the human populations. 
He started as soon as the chaos storms calmed enough to allow for warp travel, the fall of the eldar empire was a byproduct of that, just not the main driving force. 

the Emperor's main goal was almost certainly to spread the Imperial Cult among mankind asap, and starve the Chaos Gods to death due to lack of worshippers.

thats the reason why Lorgar was punished, not because he was going "slow", but because he was instilling faith and worship among the populations he conquered, which was the polar opposite of what the Emperor wanted.

Also remember not all Legions were as fast as The Sons of Horus or the Ultramarines.
the AL sometimes was (purposedly) somewhat slow, cherry picking interesting fights and giving their foes times to prepare themselves. the Iron Warriors and imperial Fists took their sweet time building defences in the worlds they conquered before leaving.
and we never heard of them being chastized for their comparatively slower pace of conquests.


btw, it wasnt the legions' duty to subdue worlds into perfect compliance, just to secure them enough for the iterators to work their magic safely. There were entire fleets compromised of IGs and Iterators going *after* the legions to fully convert the conquered inhabitants.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Okay, necro time. *cracks knuckles* (for the record this, fairly minor necro, is due to my not being able to access the site and reply between time of posting and now)



TyphoidLmJ said:


> Yeah, it kind of seems like he was rubber stamping them at the end there. Still, a personal touch goes a long way. I mean, a decade with each legion would have added up to a little under 2 centuries. Not much compared to the big picture of the crusade, which went on for quite a while if I remember right.


I'm not really sure that spending lots of time with the Primarchs would've been that helpful. Night Haunter and Angron were both pretty much lost causes from the get go, Lorgar and Magnus probably were as well. Also, not every Primarch who got shafted turned against him. Corax doesn't seem to have spent much time with him and neither I think did the Khan, Guilliman or the Lion. Notably several of the loyalist Primarchs (Russ, Vulkan/Manus) did not accept the Emperor right away well several traitors (Night Haunter, Horus, Fulgrim) did. And ultimately it can't be ignored that the Primarch he spent the most time with is the one who orchestrated most of the Heresy (hint: it was named after him too). The Emperor did have other things that 



> Agreed. I did not count the other two because it seems like they didn't even make it to the point when all the other Primarchs were found. So when Alpharius was discovered and given the XX legion, there were already only 18.


Fair enough.



> However, the Eldar Fall was an empire destroying event, I think the severity would have kept them weak and pliant for several millenia, more than enough time to proceed cautiously.


Well the Dark Eldar never really suffered from the Fall directly, and so remained a dangerous military threat from the get go, and likely one quite interested in regaining their former empire. Further it can be seen that the Eldar are already militarily active and scheming before the Heresy takes place. 

Ultimately though I agree that the Eldar were unlikely to recapture there Empire at any point. That doesn't mean the thousands (if not billions) of other minor empires couldn't have expanded to fill the gap instead of humanity. Nor does it mean that Chaos wasn't already moving towards enslaving an empire of their own. It's quite likely that they wouldn't have been able to become galaxy ruling threats themselves but they would've posed a bigger challenge to the Imperium, particularly if they were human themselves (there posing a more existential threat by raising the question 'we were doing fine before they came, why do we need the Imperium?')



> He outpaced the supply train(figuratively). The Legions kept conquering and conquering, without taking the time to consolidate their hold on these worlds.


Actually the Emperor did a remarkable job of keeping the supply chain going for his legions. And as Sangriento pointed out, it wasn't the Legions job to consolidate the Imperium's hold, just to expand it.



> On another note, most of the Legions were competing with, instead of complementing each other.


Competition between equals is the best way to bring out the best in everyone involved. The Primarchs pushed themselves and their Legions to the absolute peak of their ability, simply to prove to the others what they could do. 



> The Emperor should never have allowed that to happen. As a leader, he should have made them shake paws and make up. Or at least be civil to each other.


The Primarchs are a diverse group, and a group were each individual member was raised to believe he was the only one of his kind and the only one capable of what he was capable of. To expect that the coming together of such a group would not spark disagreements is irrational. Equally, to expect the word of one individual to be able to change that is also irrational. The build up has shown time and time again that the Emperor saying something doesn't make it so. Telling people to be nice to each other won't make them change their opinion of that person. And finally, the Primarchs were all civil with each other. Even ones with major personal issues were never worse than distant until the Heresy forced everyone to pick a side.



> Maybe if the Primarchs were together more, they would get along better, and there would be less bruised egos and bitter tears. Its awful hard to hate someone when you depend on them on a daily basis, especially in combat.


I really don't think that sticking some of the Primarchs together would've made their relationships better, in fact I think it would make some of them worse. By forcing them to co-operate on a single mission you are creating all kinds of mine fields for them to have to walk through. Who is in charge of the mission, and why? Who takes the lead, who gets mop-up duties, who takes the hardest target and who negotiates with the leaders? And again, why? And that's leaving aside all the potential for resentment that could come from having to wait for, or bail out, your ally. The Primarchs themselves wouldn't be forced to rely on, or even see, each other on anything approaching a daily basis in such situations. Look at _Feat of Iron_ for an example of how such co-operation might look, then imagine that stretched out through every campaign.



> Respect would come in time, and respect is the death of hate.


Most of the Primarchs did respect each other, or at least they respected what they could do. Horus repeatedly talks about how much he admires Sanguinius, how much he respects Guilliman and Dorn and how much he fears Russ; but that only causes him to make harder death-traps for them. You can respect someone and still hate them.



> However, keeping them together in task forces would slow down the pace a little.


Actually it probably wouldn't slow the pace much, it would just create more task forces that weren't headed by Primarchs. Whether or not that would be a good thing or a bad thing is hard to tell. 



> Wow. That was alot longer than it seemed at first. Sorry


No need to apologize. Massive posts are my specialty.


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