# Fighting Dirty. Necrons and Challenges.



## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Necrons may claim to be honorable, they are not in the slightest. Don't be fooled by their low initiative and number of attacks, in fact beware when one of these undead robots challenges you to one on one combat. They have a bucket full of nasty tricks that will ruin your day. Let's take a look at a few of these.

Equipment and Weapons:

Mindshackle Scarabs: Perhaps the most deadly tool for a Necron in one on one combat. When fighting a challenge both models are considered to be in base contact only with each other. This means that Mindshackle Scarabs will always be able to force the opposing character to make a leadership test. Fail that test, and the challenge is as good as lost.

Tesseract Labyrinth: Some Necron's won't even bother sullying their Metallic hands with fighting. They will just active this little gem, and rid themselves of any foolish rodent that is in front of them.

Warscythe: Not that tricky, just deadly. Armor will not help you. Hopefully you can kill the Necron before the tip of this scythe hits you.

Void Blade: A weapon that can vaporize Armor all together. Even if the Necron doesn't kill, there will be nothing protecting you form any other hazards.

Outside forces: When they can't handle a challenge (or combat) by themselves they may call in help, so Loot out!

Monolith, Portal of Exile: Fighting next to a Monolith is risky business, you run the risk of being sucked into the void forever, not much you can do to avoid this.

Doomscythe, Death Ray: When these pass over head they're very likely to fire some pin-point death at your character(s).

Famous Necrons:

Imotekh The Stormlord - With his Humiliating Defeat rule (and his Fluff) Imotekh is meant to challenge everyone and everything that get's close to him. Gauntlet of Fire is actually good for him as you get to re-roll everything. With S5 your wounding most things on 3+. With his T5, Sempiternal Weave, and Phase Shifter he is a rather hard SOB to take down. 

Nemesor Zahndrekh - See Vargard Obyron.

Vargard Obyron - Vargard Obyron is a beast in Combat, and also meant for Challenges, with his Sempiternal Weave he will survive most hits (and gain more attacks) Most AP2 weapons will be going at I1.

Illuminor Szeras - You'll want to stay clear of Combat at all cost.

Orikan the Diviner - Orikan can be a Tough Necron to crack, S7 and T7 it will be very hard to kill. As long as he is Empowered challenges should be easy to beat.

Anrakyr The Traveller - Anrakyr should be fighting from his Catacomb Command Barge, and doing so can't be part of Challenges.

Trazyn The Infinite - Normally Trazyn will want to stay away form Challenges. However he does have Mindshackle Scarabs, witch can make the Challenge rather... one sided. If he is facing a whole group of Characters, sending him into the challenge could actually be a good idea as a kill could net you more wounds all together.

The moral of the story is to never understatement a Necron, it may be the last thing you do.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

So that bit with the doomscythe, I assume for Beam attacks, the models that are passed over by the beam are the ones that are hit and have to take the wound?


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Don't forget Obyron's Cleaving Counterblow, with extra S7 WS6 attacks for every miss you make. Obyron can outright kill your special character if you can't either ID him or roll like your life depends on it (Protip: it does). You best be packing something that can go through 2+ as well.

Obyron was good in combat before. Now he's outright deadly.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Don't forget Obyron's Cleaving Counterblow, with extra S7 WS6 attacks for every miss you make. Obyron can outright kill your special character if you can't either ID him or roll like your life depends on it (Protip: it does). You best be packing something that can go through 2+ as well.
> 
> Obyron was good in combat before. Now he's outright deadly.


I was just doing a general outlook on Necron's and Challenges. But now I think I will expand it to include special characters too.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, Obyron is really one of two characters in the codex that have any teeth in CC. The other is of course Oritkan coupled with a Chronotek. Anrakyr would be a contender as well but he lacks any good rules (Besides the obvious FC and CA) in CC.

Trazyn wants to avoid challenges at all costs as it robs him of his most powerful ability, which is Empathic Obliterator cluster-rape.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Loving all the great things Necrons can do in challenges. But I would like to say that Necrons only HAVE to be honorable to each other. The other races are considered too barbaric, inferior or underhanded to be granted the courtesy of an honorable fight.

Trazyn should always have a specially equipped Lord in the same squad. This Lord is there to accept challenges on his behave, or issue a challenge to get a character away from Trazyn in the general combat. But Trazyn can do well in a challenge if necessary. He has Mindshackle Scarabs and so long as he wounds at least once, he can get a bonus free wound at the end of combat. Once free, he'll handle the rest of the unit.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

First Post Updated to include Special Characters.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

The only problem with cleaving counterblow, is that if you are against anything with AP2 weapons, they are likely to be going after Obyron so he would not get his extra attacks. Personally though, I don't know anyone who would give a lord a voidblade over a warscythe. However against someone like Ghazghull, a lot of our challeneg worthy units will be instant deathed by his S10 attacks against you.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Fighting a challenge against Ghazghkull is silly though. I guess I'd do it if I had to, or could throw a Lord at him with Scythe and Mindshackle (he's LD 9 for Mindshackle, and I1, so you might get a lucky Scythe hit through - after all, he IS only 5+ Invulnerable, but he'll be sure to get Moral Support re-rolls; he's an Ork!), but apart from those circumstances I'd probably just decline the challenge. Necron Characters aren't going to be great against Orks because of their low number of high quality attacks, rather than a bucketload of crappy attacks. Obvious exception is Trazyn, and if you take him you should probably take the aforementioned Lord in the unit to accept any Challenges on his behalf. Just be sure not to issue one of your own.

Midnight


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

falcoso said:


> The only problem with cleaving counterblow, is that if you are against anything with AP2 weapons, they are likely to be going after Obyron so he would not get his extra attacks. Personally though, I don't know anyone who would give a lord a voidblade over a warscythe. However against someone like Ghazghull, a lot of our challeneg worthy units will be instant deathed by his S10 attacks against you.


Unless you have a Storm Shield I don't think you'll survive if you go after Obyron... And it is true that Voidblades are not as good as Warscythes, but they are Necrons second best melee weapon (in my opinion) and thus warranted a look at.

As for facing Ghazghull you best roll godly, or have Mindshackle Scarabs or you're going to die.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

falcoso said:


> The only problem with cleaving counterblow, is that if you are against anything with AP2 weapons, they are likely to be going after Obyron so he would not get his extra attacks. Personally though, I don't know anyone who would give a lord a voidblade over a warscythe. However against someone like Ghazghull, a lot of our challeneg worthy units will be instant deathed by his S10 attacks against you.


C'tan. Time's Arrow. Gaze of Death. Bye bye Ghazkull.

I can't even stress how good C'tan are in challenges, especially if they have Time's Arrow and Gaze of Death. Thats basically a challenge-winning monster right there. Immune to ID, 4++, S/T7, I4, W4. These things are character-killers. Used a C'tan to bang up Ghazkull in one game, Time's Arrow, instant dead. Then in the next game he completely raped Dante, and made him like it. The wound he lost to Dante he promptly regained with Gaze of Death (Killing Dante in the process). The Deceiver (Or whatever C'tan you follow) is back, and in a big way.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

C'Tan are awesome, though other MC characters could be tough. Do they get the Hammer of Wrath against a challenge if they charged? The language is murky and implies that whatever has it is using its mass to just barrel into combat. Hard to see it do that and issue a challenge.

As Anrakyr was mentioned on the Barge, I do have a question. When fighting from a Chariot, it says models in contact with it count as being in contact with the passenger. But what is not mentioned is whether you can attack the Chariot or the passenger. I would assume you can attack the Chariot or passenger, but that makes charging with a Chariot dangerous.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Unless they lack S6+. Then your chariot is basically invincible.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> C'Tan are awesome, though other MC characters could be tough. Do they get the Hammer of Wrath against a challenge if they charged?


Based on the wording, a challenge, and all subsequent movement of characters, takes place in the charge sub-phase whereas the HoW attack takes place at initiative step 10 indicating it is done after the challenge. The real question is "does the attack resolve in the challenge or between the squads fighting? Or both?" It would likely need to be reworded that the HoW attack occurs before the challenges and immediately after Overwatch.

Though it is kind of badass to think of one unit bracing for impact, the other baring down the charge and then seeing both commanders leap at one another in a mid-air tackle. Very cinematic indeed...


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Seeing as two models in a challenge are only in base contact with each other, regardless of anything, I would say that a unit's HoW resolves against the other unit, while the character's HoW resolves against the other character.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Seeing as two models in a challenge are only in base contact with each other, regardless of anything, I would say that a unit's HoW resolves against the other unit, while the character's HoW resolves against the other character.


Except that grants the charging unit an extra attack. HoW is only one attack, not an extra attack per model.

If the charging character is a part of the charging unit then he shares in the HoW attack, he doesn't get one all to himself.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

You are right. For the purposes of a challenge, the two characters are their own unit. At least, thats the way it sounds. Since two units are now charging, you get two HoW attacks. One for the IC, one for the mob.

Otherwise, the question must be asked, who is actually _making_ the HoW attack? If its the character, then the HoW is resolved against the other character. Otherwise, it would be resolved against the mob unit.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> For the purposes of a challenge, the two characters are their own unit. At least, thats the way it sounds. Since two units are now charging, you get two HoW attacks. One for the IC, one for the mob.


Not at all. First and foremost, the challenge isn't proposed until both units are already in base contact following the charge. Then and there the HoW attack has been "made" and merely awaits resolution. On top of that, wounds dealt in the unit combat and the challenge both count towards resolution of the entire combat. Finally, the IC cannot leave his unit during the assault phase. If he chose to leave in the movement phase, moved more than 2" away and declared an identical charge candidate he would get an HoW attack. This would also open him up to Overwatch fire all by himself and potentially make it that he doesn't get into charge range and the unit does or, worse yet, the other way around. God forbid NEITHER unit makes it in and he has to stand there and endure an entire round of shooting/assault without a unit to give him Look Out, Sir!


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Otherwise, the question must be asked, who is actually _making_ the HoW attack? If its the character, then the HoW is resolved against the other character. Otherwise, it would be resolved against the mob unit.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Otherwise, the question must be asked, who is actually _making_ the HoW attack? If its the character, then the HoW is resolved against the other character. Otherwise, it would be resolved against the mob unit.


For now - no telling. As I said earlier, it needs to resolve immediately, before challenges. Either that or resolve exclusively against the first enemy model you move into contact with (closest to closest) since that is who you'd have to remove if you failed the save. If that person is the character, so be it. If its a rank and file... You get the idea. Same applies to who's strength you use.

Okay, reality check. The rule states "if a model" not "if a unit". Would this mean that anyone who made it into base to base contact on the charge gets this attack?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Kelann08 said:


> For now - no telling. As I said earlier, it needs to resolve immediately, before challenges. Either that or resolve exclusively against the first enemy model you move into contact with (closest to closest) since that is who you'd have to remove if you failed the save. If that person is the character, so be it. If its a rank and file... You get the idea. Same applies to who's strength you use.
> 
> Okay, reality check. The rule states "if a model" not "if a unit". Would this mean that anyone who made it into base to base contact on the charge gets this attack?


I read it that each model gets the HoW attack. Do you think 3 Spyders or 3 Carnifexi only deal one strength 6 or strength 9 attack among them? Each slams its body into the enemy. The same goes with Jump Infantry. Ten Assault Marines aren't just going to all slam into one enemy in a unit. Each hurtles their body as hard as they can at the target.

The cool thing with Wraths is the new initiative consolidation. The HoWs will pressumbably kill a couple models in base to base. As the enemy models come to their initiative step they have to move in, trying to gain base to base contact. Any model that gains this immediately becomes I1 because of Whip Coils.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

I gotta stop posting after midnight. My brain doesn't work right.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> C'tan. Time's Arrow. Gaze of Death. Bye bye Ghazkull.
> 
> I can't even stress how good C'tan are in challenges, especially if they have Time's Arrow and Gaze of Death. Thats basically a challenge-winning monster right there. Immune to ID, 4++, S/T7, I4, W4. These things are character-killers. Used a C'tan to bang up Ghazkull in one game, Time's Arrow, instant dead. Then in the next game he completely raped Dante, and made him like it. The wound he lost to Dante he promptly regained with Gaze of Death (Killing Dante in the process). The Deceiver (Or whatever C'tan you follow) is back, and in a big way.


You forgot Fear. Nothings better than fighting a Deity with WS 1.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The Sturk said:


> You forgot Fear. Nothings better than fighting a Deity with WS 1.












Nice catch. I didn't even realize C'tan had fear.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

MCs in general have it.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

That means Spyders have fear too.

For fifty points a model, these things keep getting better and better...


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> That means Spyders have fear too.
> 
> For fifty points a model, these things keep getting better and better...


Now if only Fear could effect Space Marines...


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> That means Spyders have fear too.
> 
> For fifty points a model, these things keep getting better and better...



Single most undercosted unit in any codex.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Plus I saw that if you give them the Fabricator Claw Array, they get the bonus attack. Plus it can fix vehicles so they are a huge bargain for what they do. 

Of course the only downside is, like most MCs, they are slow. But with proper cover and use of Solar Pulse (or even Monolith shenanigans), they will get there eventually.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

If you do go into a challenge with a single moddeled unit how would the ofther models be arranged around the combat? e.g like the c'tan example Iron angel used, would gaze of death affect other models in the unit?

I tried to put this in a separate thread but for some reason it keeps saying that my message is to short and clears it all even though I write loads.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

falcoso said:


> If you do go into a challenge with a single moddeled unit how would the ofther models be arranged around the combat? e.g like the c'tan example Iron angel used, would gaze of death affect other models in the unit?
> 
> I tried to put this in a separate thread but for some reason it keeps saying that my message is to short and clears it all even though I write loads.


Gaze would hit everyone under the blast (friend or foe). C'tans don't care for a fair fight, and neither do the rules for Gaze of Death. Most attacks in close combat care about being in base to base, Gaze of Death does not. It will hit everyone under it, even if the model isn't in close combat.

Note Arrow of Time would only be able to target the model that is in the challenge with the C'tan because it does care about base to base.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Heres another neat thing regarding Tomb-Blades. Their Stealth upgrade has just become more useful since Jetbikes can Jink. So if they move normally, they will get a 4+ cover and a 3+ when they turboboost. Pair this with their Shield Vanes and you have a pretty tough unit to take down, though it puts your price up there with Destroyers.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The Sturk said:


> Heres another neat thing regarding Tomb-Blades. Their Stealth upgrade has just become more useful since Jetbikes can Jink. So if they move normally, they will get a 4+ cover and a 3+ when they turboboost. Pair this with their Shield Vanes and you have a pretty tough unit to take down, though it puts your price up there with Destroyers.


I would still say take one or the other. Turbo-boosting is nice and all, but if you want to shoot, you have to stop eventually. 4+ is still nice, but 3+ for armor is better. AP4 guns are all over the damn place, but AP3 is quite a bit less common.

If you are taking Blades, you best be taking the particle beamer anyway. S6 blast template on a jetbike. Yes please. Everything else, an immortal or a destroyer does better.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> Gaze would hit everyone under the blast (friend or foe). C'tans don't care for a fair fight, and neither do the rules for Gaze of Death. Most attacks in close combat care about being in base to base, Gaze of Death does not. It will hit everyone under it, even if the model isn't in close combat.
> 
> Note Arrow of Time would only be able to target the model that is in the challenge with the C'tan because it does care about base to base.


So where would all the other models not in the challeneg be aarranged? Otheriwse they could be put right at the back where I can't hit them anyway.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

In assault moves, you have to pile in as close as you can and not hold back. Challenges are issued AFTER that, iirc. So they are still right next to it, they just can't do anything except die horribly when it comes time to Gaze of Death.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

FUN FACT: If a character fails a Fear Check from a C'tan he is in a challenge with, the whole unit becomes WS1

Also if the unit fails a Fear Check form a MC that isn't in a Challenge, the Character becomes WS1


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Spyders. No running. Counterassault only.


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