# GW, the public and communication betwixt the two...



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

People have been complaining that GW don't "listen to the public" because they don't trawl forums. My responce to that? Yes, they do listen to the public. Those that bother to talk to them rather than shout angrily into the Ether, then get more angry because GW hasn't come looking for their complaints.

In this day and age of "blame everyone but yourself when something isn't right" I am firmly of the opinion that if you can't be bothered to do something right, you have no right to complain when it doesn't go right.

There are many routes available to talk to GW and get your ideas, comments and queries heard. Their website has contact details on. WD positively encourages contact with them. They have Facebook and Twitter presences, and places you can share army shots. 'Eavy Metal also has a facebook group. Or you can just pick up a phone, or fax them. There are many ways you can get in touch.

When getting in touch though, several things will make your chances of a reply better.

1) Write in correct english. Use grammar and punctuation. If your letter makes the readers eyes bleed, they won't respond. 
2) Don't fill your letter with swearing, cursing GW and telling them nothing but why it's ALL WRONG. Nothing discourages a creative-type like being told they're crap and you hate their work. Phrase it as constructive critisism. 
3) Don't ask things that can be solved by just reading your rulebook.
4) Don't ask things that have blatantly obvious answers unless you are a dick, trying to bend the rules just so you can win every game. 
5) Rules queries that have already been addressed in an FAQ won't get answered.
6) Questions on releases, forthcoming books and models won't get an answer. 

There are ways of getting GW to listen to public opinion. Shouting angrily on here isn't one of them. If you are serious about wanting to be heard and not just idly complaining, then take the ten minutes extra to voice your opinion in a place they will hear it. There are plenty of them. This is not one.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Here here mate.

Too many people have begun bleating about GW's fails, whilst having no constructive critiscism at all.

We can all point the finger - thats the easy part. Constructively informing GW, so they can address your issues seems to be something not many folks can do.

The GW hate band-wagon has a full load (or should that be "fool load"). And yet, most of the complainers seem to be still happy to shell out wads of cash for their next models. Alright, maybe not "happy", but still willing.

GW provide what is, lets be honest, one of the best series of hobby game systems that are in existence. To keep that level of quality requires a lot of hard work and dedication. If we must point out the odd flaw or complaint, then lets do it as if we were adults.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I always though it would be good if a site like Heresy, which gathers hundreds of gamers together could periodically submit some agreed upon proposals.

For example a 'big issue' of some sort could be put in the form of a petition and the members of Heresy could sign it if they wished. That sort of thing.

I think too often people think their individual idea is awesome, but it would not be supported by the vast majority of players, so in that sense petitions dealing with one particular issue, and then just lost of signatures is a good way forward.

It allows your voice to be heard, but is about something which hundreds or maybe even a few thousand people can all agree on.

Two examples for me would be:


Add the Mechanicum to 40k (big investment, difficult to implement)

Update Older Codices using a simple PDF if the items or wargears pricees are different in a newer codex. For example if autocannons are cheaper in a new Black Templars codex, simply update the new price (if its now the standard of course) in the older codices. That way they would stay relevant and competitive for longer.

Those are just two simple ideas I've had, but what if no one else liked them? So a kind of petition month here at Heresy, where the most favoured and popular ideas get put forward to GW would be a cool idea IMO.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

I believe SilverTabby had an opinion on this in a seperate thread - and (correct me if I'm wrong SilverTabby) he was quite correct. This kind of idea, whilst good in principle, will only allow an outlet for those who cant be bothered to contact GW directly. Since most people who seem to gripe about GW tend to do so in a loud and vocal manner on forums, it would quickly devolve into a bitching session of enormous proportions - if anybody has good honest issues, or ideas, such as yourself DAC, then they should contact GW directly.

I mean no disrespect to you mate - as I said its a good idea. Unfortunately, placing a thread like that on a public forum such as this would require a hefty amount of monitoring and a gentlemanly agreement by everybody using it, that constructive use, should be the only use allowed.

Call me cynical, but I cant see that happening.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Personally, I vote with my money. As more, better designed, and better maintained games appear, I buy less from GW. I can't be bothered to attempt to contact them.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

What I meant by GW listening to players is best described by the whole erratas GW did at the beginning of 2011. Those where the erratas that made everyone's stormshield work the same way. People had been asking for that for years. I know, I asked in a very polite, well written (although english is not my first language, I pride myself in usually having a good written and spoken english) letter. A group of people at B&C, possibly the most well-behaved GW-related forum did the same. That was around 2008, when 5th ed came out and GW did massive FAQs. 

It took GW 3 years to actually come around and do that. So many people had bumped their nose on the door, getting "Sorry, but we can't do that" answers that it took the whole community by surprise. GW finally got some goodwill by doing that, but if they had actually listened to that easily fixed (as proved by that later action) but common complaint in a timely manner, they could have gooten all that goodwill a lot sooner.

You know what the worse is? It's that this move, done a lot earlier, would have been good for business since the outdate wargear kept players from adding GKs to many imperial armies!

And the same goes for a lot of things. By getting in touch with the actual player experience, they can tap into a lot of problems with their gaming systems. As far as I'm concerned, GW does a great, wonderfull job at producing miniatures. And as well they should, because they are a miniature company first and foremost, by their own claim. But their gaming systems is problematic, and that just can't be denied. Every day, there are dozens of questions posted around the web relating to rules problems. Even if I agreed to the fact that 99% of them are misinterpretations or bad reading from the players part, that would leave at the very least 1-2 very good question being asked and unresolved every week. This own forum has rules discussions going 5 pages or more, so don't tell me every thing is crystal clear! If a monthly publishing (lile WD, for instance) took upon itself to find those, read the veterans' answers, and published an official GW response, the fanbase would be very grateful. Not the mention that a few more might actually buy the WD. 

I don't believe that GW should be run by polls, or by the players whims. I don't pretend that me, or most forums posters have great insights that GW doesn't. But I completely believe that forums, as a whole, provide a collective intelligence capable of digging through, tear apart and find faults into the GW rules. They are also capable of finding answers. No matter how much one like GW, even the most devoted GW-fan has to agree that proof-reading their rules is not their forte. Also, GW has trouble finding internal and external balance with units and codexes, and that is normal because WH40k and WFB are immensely complex rulesets. But they should access the huge, huge potential of analysis and playtesting the the players, as a whole, provide (thousands of games, codex analysis, mathammer analysis that come close to college thesis, etc). Other companies would (and do) pay huge sums to access such knowledge.

Phil


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

You make a good point about WD maybe having a page on the most commonly asked rules questions. But instead of saying it here, why not send WD a letter or email with that idea in, containing links to all the forum rules queries pages, and suggest they add a note in WD saying "send us the most common rules queries and we'll tell you the answers"? That way they'll know it's wanted (again: WD used to do that but no-one wrote in), where to find those questions online, and that if they publicise people might respond.

Also bear in mind there is a 3 month lag in WD. Any queries on a new codex wouldn't appear til 3 months later, when the FAQ tends to appear nowadays anyway.

However, there is a reason people post on forums rather than seeking formal responces to rules queries. If you argue long enough, and enough senior players say "yeah" then most people go with it. If GW answers with a formal ruling and it's not the way you wanted, you're stuffed.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

SilverTabby said:


> However, there is a reason people post on forums rather than seeking formal responces to rules queries. If you argue long enough, and enough senior players say "yeah" then most people go with it. If GW answers with a formal ruling and it's not the way you wanted, you're stuffed.


Quite true, but those informal forums ruling don't cut it with a lot of players. Saying, in the middle of the game "well, that's the way they ruled it on Warseer" isn't a great case :biggrin: I'd rather be "stuffed" by a formal ruling...

You're right with the WD having too much of a time lag. A monthly renewal of the FAQs would please players, help the game and generate traffic on their website, though. I'll make sure to write that to them :wink:

But that would still imply a "rule expert" ate GW devoting some time to this task. But GW spends close to 43 millon pounds in wages and salaries annually. I'm pretty sure that a full-time employee devoted to analyse and find rule problems (mainly via the forums), solve rule problems (by taking into acoount forum answer consensus, not because they're always good, but because they often are) and republishing the FAQs would be both a very small increase in the salarial mass and a tremendous marketing opportunity.

On slow days (right before an armybook or codex release, when most of the previous release's problems have been solved), this employee could create reports of "what seems to be bugging the community the most". This would exclude things like "GW is a price-gouging monster that hates playas..." but include stuff like "A lot of players are turned off by the 6th level of spells being game breakers in WFB, we ought to do an errata with higher casting costs" or "Lots of players are annoyed by wound allocation shenanigans, how about we FAQ this to always have the player remove whole models?". This might be discussed with the developpers and be either accepted or refused. They might be playtested in-house, as I'm sure that the staff play some games every once in a while  

All of this would have such a positive effect on the general perception of GW both as a company, but as a game-system that I have a hard time trying to find out why they don't do it. And this is part of stuff I've asked directly to GW (both through GW-UK and GW-NA) with only "Sorry, we can't do that" as an answer.

Phil


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

I find that all that seems to happen with Finecast is that it gets put down, even people happily calling it "Failcast" to GW staff which I imagine is quite disheartening. However, all resin models come with air bubbles and when Citadel have to do it on such a large scale they can't inspect every single model for the tiniest of bubbles which only the critical modelling company will be bothered about; all the little kids buying finecast stuff aren't going to care if there's a little air bubble and it's not like they don't offer another product (Which lasts quite a long time) to fix these bubbles if they are that much of an inconvenience. I quite like the finecast stuff, and don't have any hate for it that I don't have for all resin models. I agree with some of the points that people make, but you don't criticise individuals or even groups of individuals about their shortcomings to their face. It seems that nobody thinks about how GW shop staff feel when told that they're selling products which suck, or when it gets back to manufacturing staff and even sculptors. I've personally criticised games workshop paints and even argued with a sales assistant over their quality in comparison to P3 and Valejo, and in retrospect I regret that as I just kind of put him and the product he was attempting to sell down.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Silens said:


> It seems that nobody thinks about how GW shop staff feel when told that they're selling products which suck, or when it gets back to manufacturing staff and even sculptors.


Or us mould makers...


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

For all my and my gaming group's experience, Finecast is is absolutely wonderful. The detail is fantastic and the material is great to work with. The problem, once again, seems to be one of image. GW advertised Finecast as being wonderful, with a name that's a bit pompous. Now, if I had been the project manager at GW for the whole finecast enreprise, I'd have made sure of a few things.

First, with a community like GW's players and the image problems that GW has (what I've been talking about earlier regading FAQs, proofreading, etc), I would have made sure that the first few months of production surpass all standards. I'd have insisted on higher than average quality control, even if that QC eventually will go down.

Second, I'd have made a fun event for players. Some with great hype. Redo some limited editions models (they did Gideon Lorr, but that was apparently a mistake!!!). Make a "buy the finecast, get the metal model for 15$ off (or free for models less than 15$)" to clear the warehouses.

That's the kind of hype we build when opening a new store. My store has some "double the reward points" day, weekly sales, etc. Of course, competition is higher, and GW doesn't need to do that... yet. But when launching a new line, you want your customer to associate that with a very positive feeling to keep them coming back for more. Now, everyone is apprehensive about Finecast and that damage will be hard to repair...

Phil


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

I think some people bought the product, thought it was good, saw the horde online going "RABBLE RABBLE FAILCAST RABBLE RABBLE" and just went along with it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Silens said:


> I think some people bought the product, thought it was good, saw the horde online going "RABBLE RABBLE FAILCAST RABBLE RABBLE" and just went along with it.


Which is a very very good reason why gw can not trust internet opinion.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> Which is a very very good reason why gw can not trust internet opinion.


Come, now, I'm pretty sur GW can do some filtering. You and I do it regularly. It's easy to make a difference between a "Yar, GW is shite" post and one like Mathieu Fontaine: (http://www.akaranseth.com/blog/7-8-fail.htm).


Getting a real idea of your customers' opinion on the Web is not easy, as most precious things in life. I sometimes wish for self-painting models when I have to paint 40-60 troopers :grin: But it doesn't mean it worthless!

Phil


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

It is an unfortunate fact that if you're indifferent or ok with something, you don't tend to go online and talk about it. If you love it you might, but if you hate it... Oh dear god, the hate that spews forth with no regard for who might be reading...

Having spent the better part of a decade on the recieving end of such hate, I have no qualms about Studio staff not reading the forums. Having a dedicated guy might be an idea, but i'd rather see that money go to a new sculptor, or another writer to take the pressure off Games Dev a little. If a concerted effort was put in by each forum to send in these collections of wanted rules clarifications, then they wouldn't need to spend that money. In these days of instant communication and world-wide instant chat, the word to compile and send these in could be across the globe within an hour. 

So... why hasn't this happened yet? The pessimist in me says because folk would rather complain than have the problem solved. The optimist in me says it just needs someone who really wants to see it happen (and has more spare time than me) make the first move...


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

SilverTabby said:


> . . . So... why hasn't this happened yet? The pessimist in me says because folk would rather complain than have the problem solved. The optimist in me says it just needs someone who really wants to see it happen (and has more spare time than me) make the first move...


I suspect that GW have something of a PR issue here, and not the polarizing and often completely fabricated sort that leap to many minds on the internet. 

I've been a customer (player, painter, & modeler) for almost 20 years. I ran a 40K/fantasy league/club during 40K 2nd ed and I fondly remember those White Dwarf FAQ columns. As the local arbiter of the rules, having a sensible and official word on things made my life a lot easier - and improved the gaming environment (and meta-game) considerably. At the time I don't know that there was any other cultivated way to contact GW staff in a context outside of Rulebook jurisprudence.

And I don't think GW has ever made a PR push to try and change the very top-down view of their business model and communication structure. They make things and send them out for us to buy. Now I recognize that with a small dev team, the creative process produces the content and it is sold world-wide. 

What I think is missing is the creation and maintenance of a back-channel for customer communication. In the 90's I don't think it was really there. From what you're saying it exists now. (Admittedly, I haven't paid very close attention for a while. I haven't had the time or inclination.) I am surprised it isn't more obvious to the player base if what you say is true.

If it is true, then that's wonderful! Its not only good for the studio to keep a proverbial ear to the track, but its an absolute coup for the players who can encourage GW to produce more of what they want to buy. But if it is true its a remarkably well kept secret, and as you say the barrier to valuable feedback would be exceptionally low.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

well i am all for setting up a thread where we ask the forum members for genuine ideas and feed back and then submit it to GW head office and see what happens?
we should how ever try and make sure they dont know its from heresy online when we send it in so they dont reply knowing its gonna be posted online.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> well i am all for setting up a thread where we ask the forum members for genuine ideas and feed back and then submit it to GW head office and see what happens?


i know for certain that my local gaming group would be willing to test out rules; like for instance melta weapons costing 15 points & plasma costing 10, melta has the "gets hot" USR instead of plasma, vehicles moving at combat speed allows the unit inside to be "relentless", etc.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> So... why hasn't this happened yet? The pessimist in me says because folk would rather complain than have the problem solved. The optimist in me says it just needs someone who really wants to see it happen (and has more spare time than me) make the first move...


Honestly, do it or drop it. Either way, get off the high horse.

It seems like every week there is a new thread and people jump on bitching out the person for making a complaint. They have a right to a bloody opinion people. Grow the frig up, people will disagree with you or will have different opinions.

Personally, I got a bunch of issues with GW's business model and game play failures. I don't make threads or join threads to call others sheep or mindless bootlickers. I am getting pretty annoyed with it. This circle jerk of self-consolation is pathetic. At least when someone starts a thread bitching about something, they have an issue. Here, the entire issue is centred around bitching about people bitching about problems they have about GW while hiding it in a backhanded attempt to cloak it in something proactive that no one actually intends to do. Seriously?

Step up or shut up.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Being dismissive of others complaints by calling them bandwagoners or other titles is just insulting.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

lokis222 said:


> Honestly, do it or drop it. Either way, get off the high horse.
> 
> It seems like every week there is a new thread and people jump on bitching out the person for making a complaint. They have a right to a bloody opinion people. Grow the frig up, people will disagree with you or will have different opinions.
> 
> ...


You do appear to have entirely missed the point of this thread. What this is about, is people complaining online _and getting annoyed at GW because they haven't bothered to read it_. It's to enlighten people about how to complain and comment effectively to stop the endless cycle of recrimination. It's about me trying to tell you how it is on both sides to dispel the "ivory tower" myth. 

But most importantly, it's to try and get the public talking to GW in a way that will benefit both sides. I already talk to them in the ways i've said above, and know that what I say is heard and frequently acted on. If I didn't have so little spare time it's not funny, i'd be doing a lot more. But 2 kids under the age of 3 means I only get time to briefly visit the internet on my phone when naps are happening, *if* they happen to coincide. Which is why i'm encouraging others to do this...

I'm not being backhanded, or trying to hide my intent. I'm being as blatantly obvious as I possibly can. If you want to come babysit i'd happily use the time to co-ordinate this. 

But unless you want to do it, stop complaining that i'm trying to _get something productive done_ and maybe join in, else you're just another one of those people who I mentioned before, who complain here so that they can say "GW don't listen to me"...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

lokis222 said:


> Being dismissive of others complaints by calling them bandwagoners or other titles is just insulting.





lokis222 said:


> Honestly, do it or drop it. Either way, get off the high horse.
> 
> It seems like every week there is a new thread and people jump on bitching out the person for making a complaint. They have a right to a bloody opinion people. Grow the frig up, people will disagree with you or will have different opinions.
> 
> ...





SilverTabby said:


> You do appear to have entirely missed the point of this thread. What this is about, is people complaining online _and getting annoyed at GW because they haven't bothered to read it_. It's to enlighten people about how to complain and comment effectively to stop the endless cycle of recrimination. It's about me trying to tell you how it is on both sides to dispel the "ivory tower" myth.
> 
> But most importantly, it's to try and get the public talking to GW in a way that will benefit both sides. I already talk to them in the ways i've said above, and know that what I say is heard and frequently acted on. If I didn't have so little spare time it's not funny, i'd be doing a lot more. But 2 kids under the age of 3 means I only get time to briefly visit the internet on my phone when naps are happening, *if* they happen to coincide. Which is why i'm encouraging others to do this...
> 
> ...


And on our left children, we have an internet debate. Wonderful, no? 


Frankly, I have only had positive to mediocre experience with finecast. The worst issue I had was my necron overlord. It would have been quite easy to fill the holes in his cape and sculpt the missing piece of his leg, but my local gw manager was kind enough to offer a replacement despite this. 

Remember that for all the flaws a product may have, gw does have an excellent policy on faulty goods. 

And on the subject of bandwagoning? It happens, plain and simple. Fact is some people's opinions are easier to mold than others. That's just how it is. The Finecast debate, the Matt Ward hate, the C.S Goto being canon issue, it's all happened before and it will happen again.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

So Serpion , hows about a GW feedback thread with a sticky, then we can post the a letter at the end of a month with out ideas,suggestions and complaints and see what comes back?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Seems like a good idea, but where will you post it?


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

All this about Games Workshop being secretive about contacting them is a load of bollocks.
Jervis Johnson, senior games developer, has a column in White Dwarf in which he finishes off by inviting the gaming community to contact him at the address provided.
Can they be any more open than that?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Seems like a good idea, but where will you post it?


Good question. Probably Customer Service, though I thought that was more for buying and store questions. They also have the what's new today blog, that they suggest for submitting hobby experiences, but I assume that's more on the lines of "see this awesome game we had" and less about suggestions to fix any issues.


Personally, one of the greatest things about moving over to Warmachine as my primary game is that so many of these issues to do with rules simply go away, partly because of cleaner rules, and partly because Privateer Press actually has official rules trolls to answer your questions on their forums, who actually can talk to the designers to find out intent or get models errata'd if necessary. Between that, and the fact they tapped the whole community for feedback when designing/balancing their 2nd edition, and the fact that head writer occasionally jumps on the forums and discusses the minutiae of the world he created with fluff-heads, you really get the feeling of a connection and that they do have a care about and are involved with the community. That doesn't mean they'll get suckered into talking about "oh why don't you change this! Nerf that! Buff this!" sort of posts (which they just let drift on by, as they should) or that they'll change something because of a few people complaining online, but at least you get the sense that they're listening and learning. GW, whatever they might be doing, don't have the same feeling.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

In comparisons with other companies, people do need to understand just how big the size difference between them is. Many of these other smaller companies *only* have an online presence, with external stores that stock their goods.

What that means, is that it's *much* easier to make changes and adjustments, and maintain things like forums. As far as this niche market goes, GW does hold a huge (i'm talking 80%+) share of it. Love them or hate them, that fact remains. Which means unfortunately it's a huge unwieldy beast that turns like a oil tanker. Any adjustments that are made need to be accessible to all, not just those with a computer, and there would need to be a way of making sure everyone knew changes had happened. 

White Dwarf is the perfect medium for things like that, but they tried that once already and no-one responded. Maybe it's time to try again, with some assistance from those who want the change?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Seems like a good idea, but where will you post it?


well i would post the feedback thread in general 40k and when we have some good solid suggestions and such, we can get a member to mail it to jervis or who ever and see what the reply is, i think it would be an idea to get people who contribute to the thread to mail it and deal with the reply then its less likely to be ignored as i imagine a whiff of the forum will alter the reply if they send one at all.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> So Serpion , hows about a GW feedback thread with a sticky, then we can post the a letter at the end of a month with out ideas,suggestions and complaints and see what comes back?


I will second this idea. Even if it gets ignored, 50/50 chance really, it may create a secondary line of inquiry at GW; maybe even to the point of them actually officially recognising the idea and encouraging more forums to participate.
I don't think even GW are stupid enough to disregard, out of hand, a direct, consistent and well thought out list of idea's, that a portion of their fan base puts forward in a timely manner.

At the least it may plant some idea's in the heads of the lackeys. Granted they will assume it is their own 'genius' at work but it gets results either way.

Sign Me Up 

SGMAlice


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

SGMAlice said:


> I will second this idea. Even if it gets ignored, 50/50 chance really, it may create a secondary line of inquiry at GW; maybe even to the point of them actually officially recognising the idea and encouraging more forums to participate.
> I don't think even GW are stupid enough to disregard, out of hand, a direct, consistent and well thought out list of idea's, that a portion of their fan base puts forward in a timely manner.
> 
> At the least it may plant some idea's in the heads of the lackeys. Granted they will assume it is their own 'genius' at work but it gets results either way.
> ...


 I agree , if dead blue clown comes on the boards and responds , Its not beyond possible that someone with clout at GW could do the same ( read the boards that is).
nothing ventured nothing gained :grin:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Serpion5 said:


> Seems like a good idea, but where will you post it?


A sticky thread in the rules or general 40k section would be good. Members could go and post questions about rules, mainly, but other things too, I guess. The forum mod could then send it to GW. GW should know that this is a mail from a forum and that responses will be published. Sending that without saying it's from a large group of players will probaly get less answers. And any answer posted without having GW know before might result in a justified backlash from GW. Being open with GW as to the intentions behind this can only get better results, I think.



Pssyche said:


> All this about Games Workshop being secretive about contacting them is a load of bollocks.
> Jervis Johnson, senior games developer, has a column in White Dwarf in which he finishes off by inviting the gaming community to contact him at the address provided.
> Can they be any more open than that?


Everyone know we can send messages, but real communication goes both ways. If no answer, or no good answers come back, it's not communication. And by good answers, I don't mean answers that please the person who's asking, but I mean answer that might solve the person's problems. The main thing for me is that right now rule question will be answered unofficially by customer service with widely different answers and nothing to prove you actually got an answer. Although GW's FAQ publishing is getting better, there are still old questions let unanswered. The GK FAQs come to mind (because I play them), with 1-2 repetitive questions on the rule sub-forums that should have been laid to rest by GW for a bit, now...



SilverTabby said:


> In comparisons with other companies, people do need to understand just how big the size difference between them is.


But in the same way, GW has a lot more ressources available. PP has a much lower budget. I don't know Warmachine, and probably never will because my gaming group is not interested in moving to a different game (those who don't like GW, and they are a growing number, just stop miniature wargaming completely). But from what I hear, GW might want to steal some ideas from them. 

GW could also deal with a third party. Let's say GW offers HO an official GW sub-forum where players could really ask questions and get official answers. That would bring a great lot of traffic, so would be beneficial to this forum. On the other hand, the forum would have to agree to make an very strick moderation of said sub-forum in order to prevent chaos (!). For example, any thread started that is not a rule question or is impolite would be deleted. This might result in a win-win situation.

Internet is something that has been used creatively to create fortunes. People got rich with what seems, in hindsight simple thing. I just have this feeling that GW is not willing to step out of the box and tap this huge ressource. Forgeworld seems to be able to try a bit more things (the newsletters with puzzles, the PDF rule update).

Phil


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

There are parts of GW that are excellent at communicating. I sent an email to Warhammer world events team this morning, and recieved a reply about an hour later with an answer.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

lokis222 said:


> Honestly, do it or drop it. Either way, get off the high horse.
> 
> It seems like every week there is a new thread and people jump on bitching out the person for making a complaint. They have a right to a bloody opinion people. Grow the frig up, people will disagree with you or will have different opinions.
> 
> ...


Agree



lokis222 said:


> Being dismissive of others complaints by calling them bandwagoners or other titles is just insulting.


Agree



From the sounds of this thread you want censorship......only come online to praise GW....no bad press......sounds like a Dictatorship or something...just saying.

Look everyone has the right to there opinions and if they want to come online to express them who the hell are you to tell them they cant.

Anyway your idea about a suggestion thread is a good one and I hope it works the problem I see with it is that the moment someone makes a suggestion about something like Finecast everyone is just going to jump on him even if its a legitimate suggestion....that already happens quite often on this forum.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

I must confess, I am amazed that almost everyone so far has had the assumption that GW _wants_ our input. Feedback - yes. I'll agree that any company, wether new, growing or old, needs feedback from its customers in order to improve on its service. Rules queries, constructive criticism of current mould/model construction techniques, even, dare I say it, clarification on price guidelines. These are all good things to ask a company such as GW.

_"Can you change chaplains to be less expensive points wise?"_ or_ "When will you release a Mechanicum codex?"_ will only ever result in a bland non-answer, or nothing at all.

Can we really be surprised, however, when a company, that has been succesful for many years and grown to assume a leading share of the business within its own sector, can we honestly expect them to act on every single idea such a vast community of gamers could produce?

They are a company that produces a product. A succesful series of products. They already have a design team. They get paid. We dont.

If this thread is to be de-railed away from its original intent (or at the very least over taken with a variation of the OP intent) - that complainers, justified or otherwise, complain through the proper channels - then lets at least remember that we are dealing with a talented bunch of guys, who already have a vision for their product ranges.

Any thread dedicated to getting "ideas" on what to say to GW, needs to be carefully worded, or there will be a shitstorm of galactic proportions, as all of the complainers get a whiff of blood in the water.

A "feedback" thread idea has its merits, and I am in no way disagreeing with its potential, but the very fact that we seem to think it is necesary is what I believe SilverTabby was saying in the first place - that if we have an issue with GW, then we contact them directly. I suppose he wasn't expecting that to evolve into an "en masse" e-mail, but if it encourages constructive complaints/critcism to reach GW, it can only be a good thing.

There is some irony in the fact that some of the posters now advocating contacting GW, were the very posters complaining that GW "_never_" listen or reply in the first place however.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

What's Finecast? Sorry, I'm still playing Sisters of Battle, waiting for a new model, just one... 10 years later.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Imwookie2

Did you actually read and comprehend any of this thread, apart from lokis222 tirade, before your post?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Of course he didn't, he assumed we were telling the whiners to shut up when really we're just telling them that GW doesn't pay any attention to forums so unless you message them through the official channels they won't care if you decide to have a juvenile rant online. He probably misread what was posted in a fit of self-righteousness.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Imwookie2 said:


> From the sounds of this thread you want censorship......only come online to praise GW....no bad press......sounds like a Dictatorship or something...just saying.
> 
> Look everyone has the right to there opinions and if they want to come online to express them who the hell are you to tell them they cant.


Censorship? Encouraging people with complaints to seek the correct, and most productive means of resolving their issues, is not censorship. Its good advice. Allowing an outlet for opinion is also good - such as this very forum.

But, what happens when you are having a conversation, with a bunch of like minded individuals, and somebody comes along and rips out a "_Thats a Matt Ward Codex. Its sh*t!_"?

On more than one occasion, this has immediately devolved the original thread into a Matt Ward hate page, or any of the current set of popular bitches, justified bitch or otherwise.

Now this is the internet (as stunning as that revelation might be), and stuff like that is always going to happen, true. Do we defend the interupting complainers, or the peolpe suggesting to use the correct methods of contact for complaints?

Also, I dont think GW are being praised here overly much. Not when the whole thread is about how to complain to them. Give GW the respect you think they deserve certainly, but what level of respect that is can only be determined by you yourself.

Edit: Baron, you're a seriously funny man.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

LOL....you guys do an awesome job of proving my points....as soon as someone posts something you dont agree with ...its...."he didnt read the thread"...."hes a troll".....and other write offs and you resort to name calling and what not. This is why I think this kind of thread wont work.....but like I said before, I hope it does because the Idea is a good one. If people on this site can be mature and civil then a thread like this will have a chance....but I just dont see that happening. 


Anyway just to clarify I read every post on this thread before responding and my response was based off some of the stuff posted that gave off a "I dont want to hear your opinion if its negative" vibe.........sorry I didnt make that clear or if I took it in a different way then it was meant.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Erm, most people have no problem with negative opinions. They have a problem with hearing the EXACT SAME negative opinion again and again and again. You have a common opinion among people who were late a few months late to the ward or finecast hate threads and arrived after every imaginable point had been made and further posts only served to annoy people.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Samules said:


> Erm, most people have no problem with negative opinions. They have a problem with hearing the EXACT SAME negative opinion again and again and again. You have a common opinion among people who were late a few months late to the ward or finecast hate threads and arrived after every imaginable point had been made and further posts only served to annoy people.


I know its off topic but alls I can really say to people like that is why do they read the thread and post if they dont want to hear something they already have heard....and if something just keeps coming up then maybe there really is a problem. I think people who come on a thread and alls they add is a "not another one of these threads" post are what cause problems not the people expressing their opinions. I mean it seems simple to me if you dont want to read another negative opinion on finecast.....why would you read a post titled "Failcast....." I just dont get it.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

"Anyway just to clarify I read every post on this thread before responding and my response was based off some of the stuff posted that gave off a "I dont want to hear your opinion if its negative" vibe.........sorry I didnt make that clear or if I took it in a different way then it was meant."

Could you be more specific as to where "I dont want to hear your opinion if its negative" is written or inferred?
I can't see it anywhere.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

SilverTabby said:


> There are ways of getting GW to listen to public opinion. Shouting angrily on here isn't one of them. If you are serious about wanting to be heard and not just idly complaining, then take the ten minutes extra to voice your opinion in a place they will hear it. There are plenty of them. This is not one.


Well this for example makes a good point that complaining on here wont get your problems solved but also has the complain to GW because I dont want to read it on here vibe. Like I said im sorry if I took it in a different way then it was meant.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Imwookie2 said:


> LOL....you guys do an awesome job of proving my points....as soon as someone posts something you dont agree with ...its...."he didnt read the thread"....
> 
> Words never left my keyboard.
> 
> ...


I am not saying, implying or otherwise stating that opinions are bad. How could I when I too am a member of a fan based forum? What I am saying is that the interuption of a thread with unnecesarily aggresive or abusive hate or complaint about a topic only loosely related to the thread is what wastes peoples time.

Its always going to happen, yes, but there's no need to start shouting censorship when somebody points out that, as you youself should agree, there's a better place for it. Like in your own thread about the very thing that bothers you. Better yet, if its directed toward a company, tell them about it.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

DecrepitDragon said:


> I must confess, I am amazed that almost everyone so far has had the assumption that GW _wants_ our input. Feedback - yes. I'll agree that any company, wether new, growing or old, needs feedback from its customers in order to improve on its service. Rules queries, constructive criticism of current mould/model construction techniques, even, dare I say it, clarification on price guidelines. These are all good things to ask a company such as GW.
> 
> _"Can you change chaplains to be less expensive points wise?"_ or_ "When will you release a Mechanicum codex?"_ will only ever result in a bland non-answer, or nothing at all.
> 
> ...


All of this. A thousand times this.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I remember that many moons ago GW did have an online forum hosted off thier own website. And its was a nightmare. People asking for rule clarifications, asking for suqats to come back, complainging about the uneveness of certain units. The mods who looked after it were ahrd pressed to keep up with the flame wars and trolling that were constantly present on the them.

Some developers did come and attempt to answer questions but this made things worse as they were not in a faq, and you couldnt exactly go to a gaming night and say 'a developer on the GW forum said A+B = C'. 

In the end GW ditched the whole lot. It seemed like a bad move from users perspective, but why would a company fund a forum that created a such a bad experience for most people.

I have found GW tend to be very open to user input, but they will normally take some time to fully consider any ideas they get or they are just very slow. A thread as has been suggested is probably not too bad an idea as long as it doesnt become a bitch about prices or how beardy any particular codex is, as GW will just ignore this.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> well i would post the feedback thread in general 40k and when we have some good solid suggestions and such, we can get a member to mail it to jervis or who ever and see what the reply is, i think it would be an idea to get people who contribute to the thread to mail it and deal with the reply then its less likely to be ignored as i imagine a whiff of the forum will alter the reply if they send one at all.


Fair enough. Do you wish to write the thread or shall I? :grin:



Pssyche said:


> "Anyway just to clarify I read every post on this thread before responding and my response was based off some of the stuff posted that gave off a "I dont want to hear your opinion if its negative" vibe.........sorry I didnt make that clear or if I took it in a different way then it was meant."
> 
> Could you be more specific as to where "I dont want to hear your opinion if its negative" is written or inferred?
> I can't see it anywhere.





Imwookie2 said:


> Well this for example makes a good point that complaining on here wont get your problems solved but also has the complain to GW because I dont want to read it on here vibe. Like I said im sorry if I took it in a different way then it was meant.


D'AAWWW, you two are so cute. :stinker:



humakt said:


> I remember that many moons ago GW did have an online forum hosted off thier own website. And its was a nightmare. People asking for rule clarifications, asking for suqats to come back, complainging about the uneveness of certain units. The mods who looked after it were ahrd pressed to keep up with the flame wars and trolling that were constantly present on the them.
> 
> Some developers did come and attempt to answer questions but this made things worse as they were not in a faq, and you couldnt exactly go to a gaming night and say 'a developer on the GW forum said A+B = C'.
> 
> ...


This must be before my time to the hobby, or else before my time to the internet. :dunno: 

Anyway, your points are valid, so naturally we would only post to them what points we also deem valid. 

If nothing else, it will be a good exercise to make people think about what they actually want in a productive manner rather than bitching online to people who don't care. :laugh:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I can write it and i am open for imput from others about the thread that will be stikied, so PM me how you think it should read please?

then i will forward it to Serp for him to do his thing.

yes i used to be on the GW forums myself, prior to the close, it was almost instant too, they went in about three days, the place was a night mare, it was impossible for GW to Moderate because they were the company, so if they removed anything it was jumped on by the community as censorship, but most of the complaints were invalid or made up crap designed to incite flame wars and such. It was a lot of fun.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> ...i used to be on the GW forums myself... It was a lot of fun.


You have a unusual definition of fun; I probably enjoy a forthright debate more than the next several people and I could not be bothered with the mire it became.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i was being sarcastic, it made warsneer look like a petting zoo


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> i was being sarcastic, it made warsneer look like a petting zoo


It made the Hundred Years War look like Warsneer.

Your turn.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The basic question that started this thread was this: I thought GW might not _want_ our opinion, but I feel like they need it and should at least skim and take the best of it as that would be beneficial both for GW and the players.

The thing is, there is a lot of insatisfaction with GW. I feel some is unjustified (general pricing being an example). I feel some is justified (rule problems being an example). I also feel that an individual sending a message to GW, even a polite, well-written one, is useless. They just have a junior employee read it and then answer "Sorry, be we can't do anything about that".

What, by experience, GW answer to is mass demands. When the whole =I= section of the B&C started mass emailing GW because of the ridiculous 5th ed. WH/DH FAQs, we got answers in a matter of days. The first FAQs were very incomplete and some of the "answers" made some units completely unusable (not bad, but completely unsusable). The FAQs were amended to more plausible and complete answers.

Now, my idea is: why does GW wait until there's a crisis and players have to get angry? Not only does that create bad blood between a company and it's customers, but it's counter-productive because it actually stops some players from buying GW stuff. I think that by tapping in the general mindset of it's customers it's would create a better experience. 

Now, if HO creates such an online sub-forum, I'll participate. I'll make sure to feed in positive, well-written questions about rules. Hopefully, GW will listen in (they did, a few years ago, with Dakka's Yakface). In time, maybe GW will even move further and make regular rules erratas (like they did for the Stormshield). The thing is, for all my rants against GW (to be fair, I regularly give praise also, especially about models!), I _want _to like this company.

edit: Just to add, because of the "GW has been doing this for years, they're successful and know better that we do" argument, I'll point to the Kodak company...

Phil


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

They wait until there's a 'crisis' because they don't know about it until people start telling them. 

Gw isn't a Hive Mind. The Studio isn't told *anything* from the outside / retail side of things that isn't sales figures - which is the gauge of something's popularity and how much the public like it. Mostly the only contact they actually have with the public is Games Day. Management may be told things, but they don't pass it on. 

Games Dev, on the whole, simply _doesn't know_ there's this mass of anger until they are told. Studio staff are actually contractually not allowed to talk about GW stuff on forums. And idle browsing doesn't happen much, because can you imagine how Matt would feel if he came across some of the comments on even the most reasonable forum?

Management won't assign time to do something that won't make money unless they are persuaded by Games Dev, and Games Dev don't know there's the need unless told by someone other than management, who _won't_ tell them as it will impact on profitable time spent. It's a horrible cycle.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I quite agree with all that, Silvertabby. That's why I believe we have to try and stop this nonsense. Individual mails/letter, no matter how well written, won't cut it. 

As I said, I'd love to love GW, and it wouldn't take much for them to do that, especially on the rules front. As for my other pet peeves (the hugely different pricing in different regions of the world), I understand that they won't listen to us. They just don't have to. The only way we can change that is by financial pressure (ie Canadians not buying from GW NA or GW stores, etc...) and it's a completely different story!

Phil


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The thread is up now in Off Topic, if anyone wishes to make their feelings heard.

Keep in mind, sensible posts and constructive criticism only, no rants about prices, writers or other stuff that won't change (no matter how much I hate Matt Ward!).

Keep it polite and on topic.


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