# What chapter would fall to chaos the easiest?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I wanted to poll and see what people thought which of the loyal legions that are now chapters would be the most likely to turn to chaos if tempted enough into doing so. 

In the "real" :grin: 40k world... I would say that none of these chapters would fall to chaos as they have their primarchs names to uphold. But lets say out of pure fluff that the inquisition went to far, the civilians of the Imperium were able to get more and more voice and therefore continuously bashed the astartes (riots, astartes statue and memorial defacing), the astartes were more and more put under control through the Imperial politicians, leader, and etc. Basically the remaining loyal chapters that were once legion being attacked and disgraced by Imperium they defended. What do you guys think would be the first legion to fall to chaos.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm going to go with Ultramarines. 

The Ultramarines have the most accomplisments than any other chapter. Therefore, I said that the Ultramarines have more to lose if the Imperium turned their back on them. Their pride, their monuments, their victories, and heroes reduced to a pile of ruble. Therefore I said that the Ultramarines would be hurt the most and therefore turn to chaos.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

I go Dark Angels because half of them already have.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

(You knew I'd end up posting if only to defend the Ultramarines :biggrin


My initial thought was the Dark Angels because a large number of them have actually done so under the leadership of Luther, but I thought a bit more about it and realised that the fact that they're so driven to expunge that part of the Legion's history and redeem thmeselves in the Emperor's eyes probably means they're very unlikely to fall again.

So I went with the Blood Angels- of all the loyalist Legions/First Founding Chapters they walk the closest to the chaotic abyss, will-power and a sense of humility can only do so much. Eventually I can imagine them giving into their dark side and releasing the beast within.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I say blood angels because they already have but are too stupid to know it.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I say the Iron Hands. They already have a bad reputation out of the first founding because of their abhorrence to flesh. They therefore would not be the easiest but possibly the most likely to turn against the imperium by declaring it too fleshy and not cyborg enough.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, the Dark Angels already have a very 'dark' soul, they certainly follow their own agenda and whether or not they are actually already a fallen chapter or not is debated. The SW and BA certainly have heretic like mutations which could well lead them to be cast down by the inquisition but I recon both have an honest/honourable streak which means they would never turn to chaos...


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

space wolves. Theyre already degenerate abhumans who follow a superstitious outlawed faith. they refuse to cooperate with requests for purity checks, and are loath to submit geneseed. if the ecclesiarchy had its way, they would already be "cleansed".


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They already tried once and gave up. The wolves would never turn to chaos.... they are fiercely independent but they are still, arguably, the most loyal chapter.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Space wolves they are already foaming at the mouth.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

dark angels, because the imperium and jervis doesn't love them, so maybe chaos will.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

BA. They are practically on the way to khornate worship already. Bit too much rage and madness in that chapter methinks. Good point about the DA and the fact that they have had a go at it already. The IF fixation on pain is a bit of a worry but not too bad yet. The wolves might be a bit mental but they are loyal for the most part(we wont talk about the bullshit that appaears in the latest chaos codex).
The iron hands Imust defend however. They are one of the most staunchly loyal chapters there are. There was no question of them turning during the HH and what they lost during the heresy still drives them. I would back them to be loyal over most chapters.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

BA Will only be a matter of time before they fall


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

i agree perfectly with shaantitus about the Iron Hands, blood angels are very likely candidate for chaos worship and it would khornate worship at that,


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## Izzleydill (Jul 11, 2010)

I think *BA* are most likely, but not very. The set-up of the timeline shows constant war, which is enough to feed the *BA*. If there was a time of actual peace i could see the Blood God offering them blood.


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

There are certainly arguments towards the Blood Angels, they are certainly on a path towards it. However Dante, amongst others of the upper leadership does a good job keeping the more feral aspects of the chapter in line so as long as at least one member remains as devoted as Dante the chapter will stay on track for the emperor.

The Space Wolves on the other hand are staunchly independent but would NEVER fall to chaos, they may be cast out of the imperium, but they will never fall to Khorne or any other chaos for that matter.


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

As much as they are my favorite chapter I have to go with the Dark Angels. They are dark & brooding and their all consuming quest for revenge could easily be turned to chaos, if it hasn't already been turned. Added to that they already have a history of disregard for, if not outright dismissel of, Imperial authority in the persuit of their own agenda. Plus the possiblity of chaos taint lingering on The Rock. Where as other chapters have genetic flaws the DA's flaws are in their charater.

I also have to come to the defence of the UMs. Even if, as in the example in the OP, the Imperium turned against the Ultramarines they would stand strong in the defence, and have the support, of Ultramar. There's no real evidence of any tendences toward choas or the overweening pride to push them towards chaos in the UMs charater or moral make up.


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

soul drinkers, DUH! (crap, not on the poll!)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The soul drinkers haven't gone to chaos. They are just renegades.


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

exactly, so they'd be the "most likly" to go to chaos, as they are renegades!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No more so than any other organization. Simple because they do not agree with the imperium doesn't mean they agree with chaos. In fact they hate chaos.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Primarch Lorgar said:


> soul drinkers, DUH! (crap, not on the poll!)





> I wanted to poll and see what people thought which of the loyal legions that are now chapters would be the most likely to turn to chaos if tempted enough into doing so.


... first founding


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Dark Angels as they have been compromised by Chaos once already.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

SW since they are already one step removed from Khorne Berzerkers xD but they are still awesome


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

I was going to say IF as Rogal Dorn is so stuck up and arrogant anyway but in the end I voted BA because they seem even more bloodthirsty than khorne bezerkers


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## Erinyi (Jun 21, 2010)

Space Wolves.

Already suspected in the eyes of the ecclesiarcy, openly rejects being scrutinized and even firing at Inquisitors and Sisters of Battle!

It doesn't matter how loyal they supposedly are, the shit is deemed to hit the fan when the Imperium gathers enough chapters and comes to cleanse Fenris... Much like the Pups did to the Thousand Sons, they will be forced to flee or be annihilated. And rejected by the Imperium, wherever will they turn but to the Warp? The irony is bittersweet.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Erinyi said:


> Space Wolves.
> 
> Already suspected in the eyes of the ecclesiarcy, openly rejects being scrutinized and even firing at Inquisitors and Sisters of Battle!
> 
> It doesn't matter how loyal they supposedly are, the shit is deemed to hit the fan when the Imperium gathers enough chapters and comes to cleanse Fenris... Much like the Pups did to the Thousand Sons, they will be forced to flee or be annihilated. And rejected by the Imperium, wherever will they turn but to the Warp? The irony is bittersweet.


I can see it now C:SW Codex xD


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Erinyi said:


> Space Wolves.
> 
> Already suspected in the eyes of the ecclesiarcy, openly rejects being scrutinized and even firing at Inquisitors and Sisters of Battle!
> 
> It doesn't matter how loyal they supposedly are, the shit is deemed to hit the fan when the Imperium gathers enough chapters and comes to cleanse Fenris... Much like the Pups did to the Thousand Sons, they will be forced to flee or be annihilated. And rejected by the Imperium, wherever will they turn but to the Warp? The irony is bittersweet.


It just ain't gonna happen. Any force attempting it will need friends and lots of them to die before they even touchdown on Fenris. The Fang is regarded as the most heavily fortified Citadel outside Terra. The void shielding will give the SW plenty of time to use their defence lasers to carve up the enemy armada. The attackers then have to either land on a plateau next to the fang or slog it up the mountains and then get across the plateau. Apart from all the medium and short range defence systems of the Fang, they will also need to deal with the Chapter, 100+ dreadnoughts, 100's of SW ships, 1000's of Chapter serfs, Wulfen + the elements/terrain and natural predators that dwell on Fenris. The prophecy also says Russ will return to his men when they are most in need of him and you know Russ won't stand back like Magnus and watch his brothers decimated. Plus if the Emperor had any doubts about the SW loyalty or weakness under the gaze of Chaos. Then surely he would have chosen another Legion to deal with the Thousand Sons & Magnus.

Bring on the Ecclesiarcy and their apple polishers. I pity the fools.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

Blood Angels, all the way.

It's easiest for them to fall since they're already tainted by Chaos and Sanguinius killed the Emperor. The only thing preventing them all from falling into Khorne worship is that Tzeench won't allow that great a shift in power between the Gods.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Chimaera said:


> if the Emperor had any doubts about the SW loyalty or weakness under the gaze of Chaos. Then surely he would have chosen another Legion to deal with the Thousand Sons & Magnus.


You never know, he could have done it as a test of their loyalty?
Also don't SM specialise in planetary assault?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Boss_Gobbstompa said:


> Blood Angels, all the way.
> 
> It's easiest for them to fall since they're already tainted by Chaos and Sanguinius killed the Emperor. The only thing preventing them all from falling into Khorne worship is that Tzeench won't allow that great a shift in power between the Gods.


That's a rather provocative statement- you're going to have to explain how you came by that theory.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Seeing as how the emperor isn't dead and sang was killed during the battle on the vengfull spirit, that may be rather hard to pull off.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

1) the emperer isn't dead
2) Horus killed Sanguinius and THEN fought the Emperor :rtfm:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well we arn't 100% sure he was killed by Horus. Some people have their doubts.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Sanguinius was definately dead before the battle between the emperor and Horus


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

There is no definitive proof of this.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Supersonic Banana said:


> You never know, he could have done it as a test of their loyalty?
> Also don't SM specialise in planetary assault?


Don't forget at this stage the Emperor knew Horus and others were rising up against him. No commander would have taken a blind risk on one of his generals loyalty at this point. The Emperor knew that he needed an ultra loyal, single minded and deadly force to purge Prospero and it's Thousand Sons legion. Magnus's constant dabbling in the warp and laterly projecting himself through the great oceans had sealed Prospero's fate & it's people were undoubtedly tainted by his actions. This was all to evident to those on Prospero in it's death throws and Magnus also understood his folly in the end.



> Sanguinius was definately dead before the battle between the emperor and Horus


I too would like to know more about this revelation. Especially as Sanguinius was obviously sympathetic to Magnus when he was on trial. Maybe Mephiston is a new Magnus in the making? Maybe the Wolves will need to sharpen their claws once again?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No. Magnus was called to the Emperor. Because the Emperor feared he wouldn't, he sent Russ. Magnus called this a breach of trust, despite the attempt to avert the Heresy, and fired on the obviously pumped up Sons of Russ, who screamed for a fight.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Vaz said:


> No. Magnus was called to the Emperor. Because the Emperor feared he wouldn't, he sent Russ. Magnus called this a breach of trust, despite the attempt to avert the Heresy, and fired on the obviously pumped up Sons of Russ, who screamed for a fight.


That may be so but as soon as Magnus broke the psychic seals on the palace he knew it was only going to end one way and that his silver tongue was not going to talk him out of trouble this time. Sure Horus may have manipulated Russ to some extent but the stones of fate had already been cast in my opinion & Magnus knew it.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

Come, children. Sit on my huge lap. I will tell you a story, a story about the death of the Emperor, who was also huge.

What you have heard is that Dorn, Sanguinius and the Emperor all teleported up to Horus' battlebarge when the shields went down. Dorn, being the (#$*-up that he is, teleported to the wrong end of the ship. This is where the story diverges from the truth.

What really happened was that Sanguinius found Horus and was locked in combat with the Warmaster. When the Emperor arrived, he ordered both of his children to stop. Horus turned on the Emperor, but being in the presence of the full glory of the Emperor broke the grasp that the Ruinous Powers had upon the Primarch. In shame and sorrow, Horus fell to his knees and begged for the Emperor's forgiveness. The Emperor, wanting the bloodshed to end and to reunite his sons once more granted Horus the forgiveness he sought.

This angered Sanquinius and the Chaos Gods played their trump card. Sanguinius raised his weapon, leveled it at Horus, and executed him. Seeing the hold of Chaos in Sanguinius' eyes, the Emperor attacked the winged Primarch, long held as the greatest of them all. As Rogal Dorn arrived in the Throne Room, he saw Sanguinius deal a mortal wound to the Emperor as the Emperor drove his sword through Sanguinius' body. Both forms fell.

Dorn collected his father into his arms and received the Emperor's last order. The Emperor bade that Dorn keep secret what transpired there. The Sons of Horus would never return to the Imperium on the word of Dorn and the Blood Angels would likely attack the Imperial Fists for accusing their Primarch of striking down the Emperor. With this damning secret, Dorn placed the Emperor upon the Golden Throne for eternity.

What neither Dorn nor the Emperor counted on was the psychic link that Sanguinius blood created between the fallen Primarch and his legion. During periods of intense anger and battle, members of the Blood Angels fall prey to the Black Rage. They see the moments of Sanguinius' death through his own eyes. This vision, likely granted by Tzeench, brings upon them the shame of knowing that it was their Primarch that felled the Emperor, that they were lied to, that they were tainted by Chaos, and that their legion could have reunited the Imperium rather than splitting it further in twain.

They discard the traditional colors of their chapter and adopt the black armor of shame. They also put a red "X" through their chapter symbol, showing their rebellion against their traitorous chapter. As the visions of their treason resonate through their psyche and chip away at their sanity, the only ones able to keep them in line are the Chaplains, who also know the secret. They direct this shame and rage into a desire to redeem their honor on the battlefield through death.

This is why the Death Company are what they are. This is why the Blood Angels do what they do.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Boss_Gobbstompa said:


> This is why the Death Company are what they are. This is why the Blood Angels do what they do.


That's an...interesting...bit of fan-fic work you've got going there. Is it for an alternate heresy story you're writing?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is all fine and dandy but it makes no sense, the sight of the emperor has never been noted to enspire such a response in the primarchs. Sanguinius was known as the kindest and most level headed of the primarchs and Horus was his favorate brother, there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be completely overjoyed at the return of his brothers sanity. Another problem is that Sanguinius would have never been able to defeat the Warmaster, not even on his best day, let alone the emperor.

But I suppose it does make a nice read for a fan fiction post.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> That's an...interesting...bit of fan-fic work you've got going there. Is it for an alternate heresy story you're writing?


Actually, I heard it from someone else back in 3rd Edition, before the Chapter Approved Death Company army.



gen.ahab said:


> That is all fine and dandy but it makes no sense, the sight of the emperor has never been noted to enspire such a response in the primarchs.


Every Primarch recognized the Emperor for who and what he was the second they laid eyes on him, with possible exception of Leman Russ. Every person that ever looked upon the Emperor felt a sense of loyalty without the Emperor having to speak to him.


gen.ahab said:


> Sanguinius was known as the kindest and most level headed of the primarchs and Horus was his favorate brother, there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be completely overjoyed at the return of his brothers sanity.


Clearly you never read the story of the Prodigal Son in the Bible (which is arguably the inspiration for the heresy). Why would Sanguinius be overjoyed that the traitor who virus-bombed Istvaan III, destroyed countless worlds, murdered and betrayed his father, his brothers and his men be suddenly forgiven simply because he asked for it? 


gen.ahab said:


> Another problem is that Sanguinius would have never been able to defeat the Warmaster, not even on his best day, let alone the emperor.


Even Horus remarked that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, not him. Everyone expected that it would be Sanguinius, even Sanguinius. And, I'm pretty certain that a disoriented and disarmed Warmaster on his knees, weakened from the sudden loss of all the power Chaos gave him, would be easy pickings from one of the greatest warriors the Imperium had ever known. And don't forget, Sanguinius didn't beat the Emperor. The Emperor technically lived, while Sanguinius was flat-out dead. I'd call that a loss.


gen.ahab said:


> But I suppose it does make a nice read for a fan fiction post.


Also, it makes more sense as to why the Death Company shed their chapter iconography AND are driven insane by their visions. Surely they must have been told that Horus killed Sanguinius, so why would seeing it happen drive them all completely insane? They're exposed to death all the time. However, these visions supposedly come through the psychic link to Sanguinius. If Sanguinius went insane with rage and was gripped by Chaos, I would imagine that's what would drive someone as trained and disciplined as a Space Marine completely insane.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yet 9 of his sons developed hate for him? At first they saw the emperor for what he wanted them to see, not what he truely was. Take angron for instance.... Well he actually always hated the emperor. 

The Prodigal was a human, not a primarch. Sang was the embodyment of everything that was "good" in the emperor. He would have never tried to kill Horus after he gave up. And even if he did, the emperor would have decimated sanguinius.

Imagine the pure rage you would feel in the moments your own brother was crushing the life out of you? That kind of rage would drive drive any emotionally unbalanced space prick insane.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

His sons developed a hatred for him when they were away from him.

And I doubt that Sanguinius held any love for Horus at that point, and probably did not consider him a brother any longer. And having someone that betrayed you trying to kill you would not drive a Space Marine insane. If that were the case then every loyalist Space Marine that fought a Chaos Space Marine would go insane.

And yes, while the Prodigal Son was human, the emotions and bonds between the Primarchs and the Emperor are very human in nature, even more so considering these men were super-human. If everything human was enhanced, then so would their bonds and their feelings.

And you say that the Emperor would have decimated Sanguinius for killing Horus. I'm saying that that's exactly what he did. The Emperor killed Sanguinius, not Horus, and that is part of what drives the Death Company insane.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i cant really narrow it down past the 3 front runners, but i voted DA.

The DA would just stop protecting & hunt the fallen :search:

the BA would just kill f*cks :aggressive:

the SW would just be somewhere in between the others. they would go nuts if they werent allowed any more beer :crazy: "No beer, no TV, make homer go Crazy..."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At Boss,
"Decimated" would imply that sang would have dome little to no damage to the emperor.


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## BearsofLeon (Feb 6, 2010)

Blood Angels. They are basically the "good" World Eaters. They are brutal close combatants and would easily walk the same path of the World Eaters.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> At Boss,
> "Decimated" would imply that sang would have dome little to no damage to the emperor.


But how do you know this? Sanguinius was one of the best fighters if not THE best fighter, of all the Primarchs. Even Horus himself admitted that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, not him.

But whatever. I still think my way makes more sense and I enjoy hearing Blood Angels players cry when I tell them the story.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

And Russ was also known as the greatest brawler of the primarchs yet the emperor brought him low with a single punch. The emperor was far more powerfull then any of the primarchs.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And Russ was also known as the greatest brawler of the primarchs yet the emperor brought him low with a single punch. The emperor was far more powerfull then any of the primarchs.


And yet it was a Primarch that put him on life support for 10,000 years.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That was booted with the power of all 4 of the great chaos gods and had the emperor refused to end it, an ability which he had from the start.

But anway, that is enough of that.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> That was booted with the power of all 4 of the great chaos gods and had the emperor refused to end it, an ability which he had from the start.
> 
> But anway, that is enough of that.


That's what I'm saying, Sanguinius had the backing of the Chaos Gods. He was their insurance, their "Plan B". When they saw that Horus had failed, they activated an agent that was closer to the Emperor than anyone.

It's funny, but you are pointing out all the things that I'm saying, practically making my argument for me.

Thanks! ^.^


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Except there is no reason to believe he turned other them your little piece of fan-fiction. Sang had already refused to follow Horus and was utterly loyal to the emperor. Besides, they only had two plans and they were Horus and Luther, it's in CA.

Again, this isn't the place we should be argueing this. Perhaps you should start another one.


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## BearsofLeon (Feb 6, 2010)

But if Sanguinius had killed Horus, prized son of the Emperor of Mankind, it would incure a wrath like that of Abaddon. Evil, twisted insanity (in this case divine?) And like Magnus, Sanguinius would have had no choice but to take the other path


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Read HH the collected visions. I think we can safely assume the story of that final battle won't change dramatically from the original stories in the old space marine rule book. Sanguinus got hammered by horus, same way it has been in the fluff for at least the last 20 years.


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## BearsofLeon (Feb 6, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They already tried once and gave up. The wolves would never turn to chaos.... they are fiercely independent but they are still, arguably, the most loyal chapter.


No, the most loyal of all are the Alpha Legion.

Through the Heresy they only had one motive. One statement. One purpose:

For the Emperor!

They chose to "betray" their brethren for Horus when actually they were looking the long view. They chose to destroy the Primordial Annihilator by using the human race as a self destruct mechanism. Now that they failed in ensuring that Horus one (cause the game wouldnt exist) They take it upon themselves to slowly, but surely, destroy Terra, and all of Humankind.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

This isn't who the most loyal legion is dude.... And there is no proof that they are loyal, simple conjecture. And for their plan to come to fruition the emperor had to have died during the heresy.


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## bloodangels666 (Jul 20, 2010)

see i think blood angels definitely but there curs i think comes from the fact they use sanguineness blood in there seed i bet is some how transfers his last memories in the blood angels minds when there felling the same anxiety he felt also when in golfed by the black rage there not really living and cant really think for them selves im sure chaos wouldn't take them exactly as part of there leagons but rather just guide them into fellow space marines


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Except there is no reason to believe he turned other them your little piece of fan-fiction. Sang had already refused to follow Horus and was utterly loyal to the emperor. Besides, they only had two plans and they were Horus and Luther, it's in CA.
> 
> Again, this isn't the place we should be argueing this. Perhaps you should start another one.


You're right, this isn't the place, which makes me wonder why you started arguing with me about it. I simply responded to the original post which asked "which loyalist legion would most likely turn to chaos and why?". 

I gave an answer and a reason. Since it's incredibly unlikely that GW will turn any of the loyalist legions to Chaos, then the answer is truthfully "none". But I notice that you aren't crapping all over everyone else's suggestions, only mine. I've spoken with many people about this "alternate ending" and you're the only person that's ever displayed any amount of butt-hurt over it other than Blood Angels players (guess what, it was a Blood Angels player that came up with it).

And considering the best counter-argument you can come up with is "nuh-uh, that can't happen because he wouldn't do that.", perhaps you should maybe shut it until you have something better, unless you personally know Sanguinius and know everything that he would do. Considering how many loyal primarchs turned on the Emperor, I'd say "he was too loyal to do that" is hardly a defense. Anyone can be corrupted. Anyone.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

And what does your arguement boil down to? "no no no, because he could." that's it. No factual basis for it... Just random shit you pulled out your ass. And name one that was actually loyal? Horus was about it and even he had some loyalty flaws. 

I haven't got on anyone elses shit because their reasons are based in fluff and there is no reason to go against what they say. If you notice, I wasn't the only one who though this was, at best, interesting fan fiction. 

Fact of the matter is I like to argue.... But that doesn't change the fact that this is simple fan-fiction. I could see him going rouge, not really just throwing you a bone, but not going to chaos.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And what does your arguement boil down to? "no no no, because he could." that's it.


Yes, I'm saying he could. Considering the Emperor's most perfect primarch fell, his most psychically powerful fell, his highest ranked fell, his most devoted fell, his most accomplished siege-breaker fell, what would there be to prevent anyone's fall?


gen.ahab said:


> No factual basis for it... Just random shit you pulled out your ass.


Um... dude? This is a game based in a fictional world. There's no factual basis for anything in this game. And I told you, I didn't write this, someone else did. I heard the story back in 3rd edition.


gen.ahab said:


> And name one that was actually loyal? Horus was about it and even he had some loyalty flaws.


I'll do better than the one you named. Magnus the Red, and Lorgar. It was the Emperor that turned his back on the two of them.


gen.ahab said:


> I haven't got on anyone elses shit because their reasons are based in fluff and there is no reason to go against what they say. If you notice, I wasn't the only one who though this was, at best, interesting fan fiction.


Mine's based on fluff as well as a little investigative deduction.

You seem to hold that someone trying to kill a Blood Angel is enough to make them go insane. News Flash, people are ALWAYS trying to kill Blood Angels. But they're not a bunch of over-emotional weaklings to always go insane whenever it happens. So that holds as much water as toilet paper.

You then say that It's because it was someone trusted as their brother trying to kill them. The only problem is that Sanguinius held no love for Horus by the time Horus got to Terra.

Also, the Death Company are known to paint red "X"s over the Blood Angel symbols on their armor. Funny, that's the same thing that the Red Corsairs do, as do any other Space Marine that has been cast out of the Imperium for one reason or another. 

So, while that may be the official fluff, it's a load of crap. No Space Marine is that weak. But, in the end, IT'S ALL FICTION. And no, you weren't the only one to say that it was, at best, interesting fan-fiction. You are, however, the only one being an asshole about it. And then you tell me that *I* should take the argument that *YOU* started elsewhere. How about you piss off, since you're clearly adding NOTHING to the thread with your constant bitching about the "truth" in a game set 38,000 years in the future.



gen.ahab said:


> Fact of the matter is I like to argue.... But that doesn't change the fact that this is simple fan-fiction. I could see him going rouge, not really just throwing you a bone, but not going to chaos.


Yes, it is simple fan-fiction, and I've never said it was anything different. You like to argue, but you're bad at it. You argued several of my points by using my points. 
This entire topic is build around a hypothetical situation. So, clearly, none of this will EVER happen, and every reason given is obviously NOT going to influence the game one way or another.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes but you are using this for your reasoning behind the fall of a chapter to chaos, or it's potential at least. This is meant to be using accepted fluff from GW. You, or whoever the hell you heard this from, isn't an accepted source of GW canon. If we could using any random crap we wanted to base this off of then I could say the anything I wanted. 

From where I am sitting, I don't seen any reason the believe sang would fall to chaos and I don't see any reason he would kill his brother after he returned to his sences. I also don't see how he would have mortally wounded the emperor if the emperor was so much more powerful then any one of the primarchs. It just doesn't seem to add up. And the reason I use the points I did is because other parts of this story don't add up which just leaves you with nothing more than fan-fic, which is what you say it is, and if that is the case then ok. I just don't think fan-fic should be used as a case for why a chapter would turn.

You call me immature, I am fine with that. I am 18. But, tbh, you are no better. Also, you seem far more butt hurt then I ever have been during this debate. 

Iow, you can think whatever the hell you want.... I just reserve the right to think it is a load of shit.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

-you two can stop posting on this thread if you can't be civil, start your own thread to hash out your opposing views on Sanguinius if you must.

Baron


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Agreed Baron. Come on guys you know thats not how we operate on here. 

Now kiss and make up 


Thank you, but remember red is reserved for the staff and the majority of your post is not to be in any non white colour. - darkreever


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I thought I was fairly pg for what I usually do. But understood, Baron. I appologize for the page of pointless babble.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I also don't see how he would have mortally wounded the emperor if the emperor was so much more powerful then any one of the primarchs. It just doesn't seem to add up.


:laugh:
And yet the Emperor was IRL PermaB& by a single solitary Primarch.

So clearly the problem is with your addition, not with the equation.

But honestly, I don't care. This isn't my main forum. I'm certainly not familiar with the way things are done here, or who is actually worth listening to. I just saw an interesting post, and so I posted a potential theory based on what we KNOW (as opposed to what Dorn said happened when he wasn't there). I realize now that I should have taken a look at your age and taken that into account before making the mistake of talking as if you were a grown-up.

My story also explains why, even after practicing cannibalistic and heretical rituals and acts, they have not been excommunicated. Dorn's last order from the Emperor was to keep the Blood Angels in the Imperium, and so they were kept in the Imperium. Even though they are doing everything that Khorne worshipers except actually saying "Khorne".

I just give a reason as to why the Blood Angels would eventually have gotten to the point where they're World Eaters without the aggression enhancers.

They also use Xeno technology on their vehicles, stolen from the Orkz, as do the Ultramarines.

But don't worry, I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't see how a Primarch could fell the Emperor (even though a Primarch DID fell the Emperor). It just says so much, really.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Have a nice day.

Edit: the good baron said to be polite so I will refrain from voicing my own opinion.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

For the fluff part I voted SW, if only because of the Thousand Son's book. The thousand Sons only properly letting rip when they realise the SW use the, uhm, can't think what they were, not marines and not their wolves, the weird things they had when they attacked prospero. As well as the other reasons listed (not submitting geneseed and all that caper... although)...

Okay, take back the SW, I could see them going the same way as the Soul Drinkers, but they do hate chaos with a passion (no making that into a Slaneesh reference ;-) ). I'd have to go with the Dark Angels if anyone (can you change my poll answer?), but saying that I don't really think they would. Out of all of them, DA.

Gobstompa, some interesting ideas there for an alternate history line but not for the current 40k I don't reckon. I've always taken the rage as coming from seeing horus kill sanguinius through sanga's eyes, favourite brother cutting him open would send out some hyouge emotions.



Boss_Gobbstompa said:


> :laugh:
> And yet the Emperor was IRL PermaB& by a single solitary Primarch.


Backed by the gods of chaos I think was mentioned earlier. When someone (Emperor) goes in to challenge a moron (Horus) he probably tried to convince him to come back to the Imperium, that's what I'd guess, and, like every film, the villain will pretend to get that sneaky blow in. Going in with your heart in your hands to convince someone that they're wrong doesn't always work... He should have gone in guns blazing ;-)

The Blood Angels have their issues with the Black Rage an all, but I honestly don't think they ever would. Massively loyal to the Emperor and not just one track animals like the SW. 

Good question and poll that ck


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> For the fluff part I voted SW, if only because of the Thousand Son's book. The thousand Sons only properly letting rip when they realise the SW use the, uhm, can't think what they were, not marines and not their wolves, the weird things they had when they attacked prospero. As well as the other reasons listed (not submitting geneseed and all that caper... although)...


Not correct. You will need to revisit the book. The Wulfen only show up at the Thousand Sons last stand. The TS were using there powers to devastating effect right from the start. Personally I think the Wulfen were held back at the start but once Russ saw what the TS were using he called up his bad boys as he knew he would need something tasty towards the end especially with the TS undergoing the Flesh Change into something much more vile than the Wulfen.


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## Cadian440th (Jul 20, 2010)

Iron hands,
access to the soul forge would prove pretty hard for them to deny in my oppinion.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Chimaera said:


> Not correct. You will need to revisit the book. The Wulfen only show up at the Thousand Sons last stand. The TS were using there powers to devastating effect right from the start. Personally I think the Wulfen were held back at the start but once Russ saw what the TS were using he called up his bad boys as he knew he would need something tasty towards the end especially with the TS undergoing the Flesh Change into something much more vile than the Wulfen.


Yep, my apols I stand corrected, its month old memory syndrome (or no memory syndrome ;-) yeah the TS went ape prior to that!), I stand by my point about the SW possibly going the same way as the soul drinkers though, even holding the once astartes wolfen back until they were really needed... they still keep them. No wonder the inquisition would like a few words! ;-)


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> Yep, my apols I stand corrected, its month old memory syndrome (or no memory syndrome ;-) yeah the TS went ape prior to that!), I stand by my point about the SW possibly going the same way as the soul drinkers though, even holding the once astartes wolfen back until they were really needed... they still keep them. No wonder the inquisition would like a few words! ;-)


No prob's if I wasn't a SW's fan I probably wouldn't have remembered either. I hear what your saying about the Wulfen though. If someone manipulated an appearance by them I am sure events could conspire against them. I am a little confused how they got away with using them in TS as I am sure the Custodes and Sisters of Silence would have raised an eyebrow. They must be sanctioned by the Emperor LOL. Still I am sure the SW's tread a dangerous line and without wise & cunning leadership they could fall to the same fate as the Soul Drinkers. At that point I would fully expect Russ to return and kick some butt :biggrin:

I am surprised the Salamanders or Imperial Fists haven't had 1 vote. The Salamanders have an unhealthy obsession with fire and the Imperial Fists are certainly prone to a bit uncontrolled rage. To be honest I am surprised the Utlramarines have more votes than either of these two.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was actually thinking about it, and I was like... what if the Iron Hands had a little taste of that obliterator Virus. I think they'd really like that shit, but if they did get the obliterator virus would they be tainted by chaos energy persae? As I wasn't sure if the obliterator Virus was purley a chaos thing or a virus developed scientifically from the traitor of Mars.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Er...Whats the soul forge?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chimaera said:


> No prob's if I wasn't a SW's fan I probably wouldn't have remembered either. I hear what your saying about the Wulfen though. If someone manipulated an appearance by them I am sure events could conspire against them. I am a little confused how they got away with using them in TS as I am sure the Custodes and Sisters of Silence would have raised an eyebrow. They must be sanctioned by the Emperor LOL. Still I am sure the SW's tread a dangerous line and without wise & cunning leadership they could fall to the same fate as the Soul Drinkers. At that point I would fully expect Russ to return and kick some butt :biggrin:
> 
> I am surprised the Salamanders or Imperial Fists haven't had 1 vote. The Salamanders have an unhealthy obsession with fire and the Imperial Fists are certainly prone to a bit uncontrolled rage. To be honest I am surprised the Utlramarines have more votes than either of these two.


I think that unless their was a god of fire the Salamanders aren't in danger of being taken into chaos. Salamanders are more "human friendly" than other chapters who concern themselves in taking all the glory. They do what they is necessary. The Imperial Fists on the other hand have a reputation to hold and honor to regain after losing their primarch, failing their defense of the terra and losing to their rival's the Iron Warriors in the Iron Cage. Due to this, they have to fight twice as hard to make sure they are not seen as traitors. Soul Drinkers is a good example. They constantly are looking for redemption to prove they are not truly chaos when they can simply have accepted the fact they are tainted and go chaos. 

So I respectfully am not surprised that some people think these two legions are more loyal than the Ultramarines. The one thing about the Ultramarines that at least I think is a weakness is their pride. And though they are currently are in good stance in the Imperium, I think that if I gave you gave a scenario much like the first post on the thread I think that would destroy the substance of their legion. The Imperial Fists and Salamaders have already had their pride beaten out of their legions as a whole by chaos, and in that sense gives them more of an incentive to fight chaos.


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## ThaPinkPownerFatty (Aug 12, 2010)

the space wolves. they have already attacked the imperium on several ocassions when they felt the imperium was out of line. there geneseed is semi mutaded and they have been branded heritics but that has been undon. besides if chaos would promis them the body or still living Leman Russ they wold go for it and then be killed by leman Russ for turning heritics. and dont forget the 13th company who lives in the eye of terror and are muted into giant wolfs that walk upright with bits of power armour in there fur. what more do you want?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

i vote dark angels because they are chaos just haven broken the ties with the imperium. but really space wolves could go heretic so fast if an iquisitor spots one of those mutant wolf marines. and blood angels will step out of line eventually with there blood consuming habbits, they will go too far someday and they will be dubbed heretics. the only way ultra marines would go chaos is if there primarch was either threaten to be taken off life support or the primarch awoke and said lets go chaos.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I was actually thinking about it, and I was like... what if the Iron Hands had a little taste of that obliterator Virus. I think they'd really like that shit, but if they did get the obliterator virus would they be tainted by chaos energy persae? As I wasn't sure if the obliterator Virus was purley a chaos thing or a virus developed scientifically from the traitor of Mars.


its called the techno virus and it was made by the iron warriors none of those little mars bastards.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ThaPinkPownerFatty said:


> and dont forget the 13th company who lives in the eye of terror and are muted into giant wolfs that walk upright with bits of power armour in there fur. what more do you want?


Yeah...you know the wulfen is something that has been present with the Space Wolves since before Russ and the thirteenth company went into the eye of terror right? Thats not something that only the thirteenth company have, its not a mutation caused by being in the eye; it comes from allowing that wolf spirit, amongst other things, to take over the mind and body. The thirteenth company have accepted the curse of the wulfen and some, or even many, have gone on to master it. (We aren't talking able to go from marine to werewolf marine and back again on a whim, more being able to enslave that animalistic rage to the marines will and draw upon it when battle comes, gaining further enhanced senses and abilities.)


Personally, I voted for the Iron Hands. Their hatred of the flesh alone would see them constantly at odds with other Imperial organizations; not to mention their dislike of many chapters. (Even though the damage done to their legion was because of the overzealous Ferrus Manus as well as the traitor legions, not any loyalist group.)


Also, in regards to the death company; I thought the X's painted on their armour were supposed to be symbolic of the wounds suffered by Sanguinius either during the siege or at the hands of Horus. Not because they are technically excommunicated from the chapter (though from memory, if you are exiled from your chapter, all your marking from the chapter are removed, an X is not placed over them.)


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