# To pysker or not to pysker, that is the question...



## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

So whether this is the right place or not...
I play BA and my 6th list featured a lvl 2 termie Libby with 10 hammer nators...
But I don't know if he should stay...
This is because 50%ish of the time I face grey knights with between 4-8 total mastery levels
And the other 50% I face orks or tau! with no mastery levels...

So what I'm asking is do I stick with trying to get powers off even though half of my opponents Can throw two dispel dice at my every casting dice?
Do I concede the psykic phase altogether and take a reclisiarch or captain or something? Seth?
Do I go all out with two lvl2 libbies?
Do I stick with the 1 lvl2?

So what I'm basicLly asking is how should one approach the new physic phase?
Is it go big or go home?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> So whether this is the right place or not...
> I play BA and my 6th list featured a lvl 2 termie Libby with 10 hammer nators...
> But I don't know if he should stay...
> This is because 50%ish of the time I face grey knights with between 4-8 total mastery levels
> ...


I find that around six Mastery Levels is a nice sweet spot for the Imperium - it's pretty reasonable as a goal for most armies, and is the nice point between having too few dice to Deny anything/push anything through Deny rolls, and not too much Mastery that you can't cast everything you want to.

I think you should keep the Librarian, as Psychic Powers are undeniably very powerful and you'll be able to use them with ease against your aforementioned Tau or Orks, while still being able to push through the odd attempt against GK (you'll struggle with Witchfires and Maledictions, but most of the good powers are Blessings anyway).


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> I find that around six Mastery Levels is a nice sweet spot for the Imperium - it's pretty reasonable as a goal for most armies, and is the nice point between having too few dice to Deny anything/push anything through Deny rolls, and not too much Mastery that you can't cast everything you want to.
> 
> I think you should keep the Librarian, as Psychic Powers are undeniably very powerful and you'll be able to use them with ease against your aforementioned Tau or Orks, while still being able to push through the odd attempt against GK (you'll struggle with Witchfires and Maledictions, but most of the good powers are Blessings anyway).


Right, this is inline with what I was thinking, but I wanted a second opinion, esspeacially as all I've faced so far is a Tzeench list with 18+ total master level! and a grey knights


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I was really happy with the psychic phase and how many Mastery Levels I could bring by using flying dreadnoughts all over the place....but now I'm not so sure. Libbynoughts and Mephiston don't move as quick as they used to, and that speed for me was largely where they made up their points cost. Now I almost am considering ignoring the Psychic phase completely with my Blood Angels because I'm kinda sick of playing my army to the latest thing GW has come up with for 40k (see also: fliers). I could bring Libbynoughts, Mephy, Librarians, Inquisitors....but I like other models and what they do a lot more than I like psychic powers.

For now I'm undecided on where I want to go with Blood Angel psykers. It helps that I am the only person currently that plays psykers in my gaming group though, so no pressure at all there.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

One more argument I have for the pysker, is what other options are there?
I could take a reclisiarch, or a captain
Captains I find too expensive for what they are... If you take any of the 'higher spec' weapons IE fists, hammers or axes say, your wasting that initiative, and also I don't like having my character near combat... The fact that one shabby dice and you've just given away 1, maybe 2 kill points to the enemy and lost a major buff doesn't sit right with me...
Talking about it the re roll to hits from the reclisiarch sounds good, although I'm hesitant about how often my termies get to charge... It's about 50% I guess... And it's only that one turn... Humpth 

Also... I meant to post this in rules discussion, although I guess it fits here so whatever


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It is less a rules and more of a tactics thing is why it got moved. 

I would say take a basic libby if you want some psychic support. Beyond that I wouldn't really go all out and even that would depend on how crunched I am for points.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I often play a Captain with power axe and sword to get me AP2/AP3 for just over the cost of a power fist. I'm also a fan of the Reclusiarch with a power fist option (since it's so cheap), though then I want to take Death Company and then there's mixed feelings online about the competitiveness of such tactics. Makes me happy to play.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Oh right it got moved :/ thanks i didn't realise I never left the thread, just refreshed it 
But I can see how just the lvl1 pysker is an option now... One dice can't be THAT much better and you don't need it to cast an extra power I guess
I think I'll go with a lvl1 Libby then, maybe along with a chaplain... I'll save 50 points on my old list... Plus 15 I had spare anyway...
I'll fiddle with points and stuff and post a list in the proper forums... Don't hold your breath though, I can't garuntee the speed


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

I have a Thousand Sons army right now, with 7 levels total. My next army is Tau. I almost feel weird, not having anything to fight psykers with.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Xabre said:


> I almost feel weird, not having anything to fight psykers with.


Huh, how's the Talisman of Arthas Moloch work now--does it boost the Deny pool by 4 dice or something? (or more likely, not addressed)


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

According to the 7E FAQ, you get +2 to Deny the Witch rolls.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Still tough, when you're only getting D6 dispel dice in a pure Tau force.


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## otasolgryn (May 31, 2014)

yeah that amulet on of farsight's goons runs around with got crazy good.

AUTO INCLUDE, RIGHT THERE


which begs the question, can tau still ally farsight?

as a rule you cant ally supplements, or your self.
But not sure about these guys.. i hear both ways...


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Librarians have pretty much always been a part of my force along with Chaplains and I still intend to use them regularly...however, I won't spend a lot of points on dropping many of them on the table. Really can't see myself running with more than two. More than that feels like cheese to me (for my regular Marines and Blood Angels), rather it is tactically sound or not. Then again I never gave into the magic mania in Warhammer Fantasy and did just fine. To your question I would still include them because Librarians are going to be useful and for fun, not for pumping your lists full of the latest thing GW is pushing. Psykers have some powerful spells but all those points invested in them could be put in other areas to offset missing out on the psychic phase without a loss of competitiveness, so they aren't mandatory in my opinion.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Xabre said:


> According to the 7E FAQ, you get +2 to Deny the Witch rolls.


That's really nice.

It doesn't help you stop Blessings, which is usually what I throw all my Warp Charge dice at to make them go away, but not many things do so having just a 4+ to Deny in such a huge bubble is great relative to all psychic defenses.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Xabre said:


> My next army is Tau. I almost feel weird, not having anything to fight psykers with.


To be fair, that's a bit like facing a tau shooting phase.

And I'd go with a single lv1 - lets you cast spells, but not crazy expensive.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

If it worked on blessings it would have been fun as Hounds of Khorne have +2 to their deny the witch rolls.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

otasolgryn said:


> yeah that amulet on of farsight's goons runs around with got crazy good.
> 
> AUTO INCLUDE, RIGHT THERE
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I'd call it auto-include. It's good, certainly, but it's not AMAZING. Especially on a Riptide, because half of it's power is now redundant with it's existing Riptide Shield Generator.

And when you consider that Tau will only ever get d6 Deny dice... it's more like a bandaid instead of surgery. As Midnight mentioned, it won't help you against Blessings, and Blessings are often better than any other negative attack with psychic powers. At most you may have enough dice to stop ONE power from really smacking you around, two if you have a lot of dice, but then so does your opponent. I haven't decided if I'm going to add it to my list yet, because I'm running 2 commanders; one from Farsight and one from Tau Empires, and I like symmetry; having one with a unique piece breaks that. I can give it to my Riptide, who acts as a central firing line, and let the bubble surround him (most likely to my other Riptides), but then the Invul gets wasted.

Honestly, my concern is that Tau just suffer too much in the Psychic phase now. Losing access to Taudar as an army now, they don't really have a reliable way to bring in psychic support. They're like the Dwarves of fantasy, except without rune priests who were specifically BETTER at anti-magic. Yes, they can still shoot the crap out of everything, but it seems like everyone else 'got' something out of 7e, but Tau lost out from not having that aspect.

And yes, I know Necrons were the same case, but I wonder if their Crypteks will get boosted next codex. And can't DE take Harlequin Shadowseers?


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

*cough*blood angels*cough* hardly gained 
Losing jump pack dreadnoughts and forcing Memphie to foot slog... SUCKS
Honestly I think it's good good tau now have a disadvantage...
I mean yeah they suck at close combat, but then when your chucking out a str 8 AP 2 large template a turn on a VERY versatile chasis for <200pts, it's never gonna come to that is it... And if it does... 48+ pulse rounds smacking them on the way in makes them think twice...
I may be very biased... In that I only atcually
Ay GK/orks/tau... Plus a bit of Tzeench, but I think blood angels got hit the hardest...
Losing our physic powers hurts the worst out of all the codex's IMO, it's made a couple of units not worth it, dreadnoughts all suffer the same problem yes, but we have other dreads that do that thing better... Libby dreads had speed to their name, no more

EDIT: getting off topic my bad 
But what physic discipline is the best? I've seen biomancy tossed around a bit recently... Is this the best? Prescience was the bomb... But now it's half as good...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

kiro the avenger! said:


> I think blood angels got hit the hardest...


At least the second (not highlighted) edit of our FAQ gave us back Fast vehicles across the Rhino chassis.

Personally I think that I'm banking on using a Librarian and an Inquisitor if I get into the Psychic Phase off the hop. Prescience for the Inquisitor's squad and pretty much just the Force weapon for the Libby...but that's just the way I have been writing lists just yet. Haven't gotten any games of 7th in to date.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Something about Blood Angels...


I don't believe this at all. It makes _total_ sense for Space Marines throughout the galaxy to have access to the same schools of psychic powers. They've unified the Grey Knights and brought them in line, and they're the most elite psykers in the Imperium. Yes, they have bonuses to Santic, but that makes sense, just as Daemons and Chaos can have the Malefic powers at a bonus.

By removing the special power sets that Wolves and Blood Angels get, maybe this will allow designers to focus the armies on what they should be; different tactical forces with different military strengths and weaknesses. There is no reason why the Blood Angels should be able to produce a stronger psychic army than, say, Grey Knights (who get Psychic Pilot dreads, but not true Libby Dreads, and they have the most psykers!).


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## Woodzee316 (Sep 11, 2010)

I recently played a game my orks v tyranids, I suffered hard because of the psychic phase he had 9 mastery levels I had none. he rolled thedice in his turn and gave me 1 dispel dice and he still had 10 to use. although it hampered what he wanted to cast I couldn't deny anything as he used 2 dice minimum. so I noticed the difference. only hoping they give us something in the new dex. otherwise I might just start throwing in wierdboyz for extra dice.


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