# Allies



## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

So reading through the 6th ed I thought the concept of allies was quite a new and exciting idea. When chaos daemons first came out I had something similar in mind while playing CSM but there wasn't anything "official", just homebrew rules. If you look at the chart on page 113 (at least that's what it is in my edition), I found two odd relationships. First, Eldar and Dark Eldar are considered battle brothers. Second, Space marine and tau are considered battle brothers. In regards to the eldar, from what I read, the eldar are not fond of their fallen brethren whatsoever. And for the space marines and tau, what happened to "Let not the alien live?". Maybe I'm missing something here but these seem like a couple odd pairings. Thoughts?


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## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

With the exception of Tyranids I think the chart is generally a lot more permissive than I would have drawn it. I may create my own version.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Eldar/Dark Eldar relationship has changed over the last few editions. 

It used to be an extreme hatred towards one another, now however it seems that they merely have philosophical and lifestyle differences. 


I feel that dropping it down a level would have made more sense, as the two factions have allied in the past. Both sides hate Chaos equally with a passion, and both sides recognize the potential threat of races like the tyranids and necrons. However classing them as Battle Brothers is I feel taking it a tad too far. 


I don't agree with tyranids being left out. Between genestealer cults and Mind Control, there are enough justifications for them to use IG and Orks as unwilling pawns and fodder.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> The Eldar/Dark Eldar relationship has changed over the last few editions.
> 
> It used to be an extreme hatred towards one another, now however it seems that they merely have philosophical and lifestyle differences.
> 
> ...


I agree that they're not utterly bitter rivals but making those two relationships as battle brothers seems off. As you say they should probably be one notch lower. 

As for the tyranids, I think it's more of a factor that no other race would even begrudgingly ally themselves with the tyranids seeing as they're the Great Devourer. All tyranids do is consume (in one fashion or another) and I think they were going for something along the lines of having something that every other race could hate? Makes me wonder if that philosophy might change the nature of the other alliances. After all, the enemy of my enemy is my friend...right?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Although genestealer cults exist, do you REALLY trust gamers to only make a stealer cult?, Hell no, you would see hive tyrants alongside battle tanks, and trygons supporting grey knights, the allied system is going to be broken already because nobody gives a shit about the 40k background


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Although genestealer cults exist, do you REALLY trust gamers to only make a stealer cult?, Hell no, you would see hive tyrants alongside battle tanks, and trygons supporting grey knights, the allied system is going to be broken already because nobody gives a shit about the 40k background


Sadly this is one of those things that can only be regulated by local gaming groups themselves.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Serpion5 said:


> Sadly this is one of those things that can only be regulated by local gaming groups themselves.


I agree, and thankfully I just happen to play with a group of guys who won't be going OP on Allies in standard 40K games...hmmm, I just realised that's the wrong terminology to use under 6th Ed, I should have said non-Apoc games. We will continue to use Allies in Apoc games in a similar fashion to how we've always used them - ala the Allies Matrix at the back of the Apoc Rulebook.

The lines have now been blurred somewhat haven't they


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

HOBO said:


> I agree, and thankfully I just happen to play with a group of guys who won't be going OP on Allies in standard 40K games...hmmm, I just realised that's the wrong terminology to use under 6th Ed, I should have said non-Apoc games. We will continue to use Allies in Apoc games in a similar fashion to how we've always used them - ala the Allies Matrix at the back of the Apoc Rulebook.
> 
> The lines have now been blurred somewhat haven't they


This may be a good point. Unfortunately, I don't have access to an Apoc book to see.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I have to say that this is another brilliant move from GW's standpoint. It's meant to encourage buying more models, codexes, etc by allowing players to field multiple types of armies at once.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

the eldar and DE battle brothers allies is perfect for those two armies, they can still hate each other with a passion but work together for the mutual benefit of there race, it makes perfect sense, the problem people have is that is overwrites "established" very bland and very poorly written very dated fluff, its FLUFF it means nothing, its just words to fill the expensive glossy book so we dont feel as robbed when we hand over the monies, honestly the words on the page hold no more impact on your gaming experience than the pretty pictures of the shiny models and the black and white battle pictures scratched out by JB.
The DE codex gave a very interesting and insight full look into DE society and by extension the Craftworlds and as an eldar player im really happy that these two factions are able on occasion to put there differences aside to fight together for there own alien and selfish reasons, Its totally eldar to go and work with there evil(or tree hugging) kin so they can shit down the neck of a local imperial lord because his rose garden is on an ancient eldar burial ground.

Personally i think that the only fluff that counts is the fluff, you as a player/collector creates, everything that GW do is page filler or to give you the essence of what the army is about, but that should be a starting point and not the final word, the abillity to have allies is a total money spinner for GW but thats no surprise, but its also gives you the player the freedom to really explore the hobby in the way you want to, and god forbid maybe have some fun and enjoy it.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

The Allies matrix makes very little sense.

Eldar and Dark Eldar being brothers in arms is actually fine. They may have powerful philosophical differences between their cultures, but they both know damned well what will happen if they let those differences get in the way of survival, so I see no reason why they cannot work well with one another.

Certain other allies though...

As mentioned, Space Marines now like and trust Tau (and vice versa), Imperial Guard will totally fight alongside Chaos Daemons...

My personal favourite, Sisters/Black Templar are an Unholy Alliance, despite, y'know, agreeing about almost everything. Abhor the Witch, Burn the Mutant, Kill the Heretic and aparantly, Hate Each Other!

The best explanation I've heard is that Sisters are Space Catholics and Black Templars are Space Protestants... But the best bit is that Black Templars are buddy-buddy with the wolf-shagging, heretic, mutant Space Wolfs and even prefer the Grey 'everyone's a psyker' Knights...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> and god forbid maybe have some fun and enjoy it.


That's crazy talk I tellz ya!:crazy:


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> And for the space marines and tau, what happened to "Let not the alien live?".


 If you go by the supposed fluff progression then the Space Marines are the protectors of the Tau, owing to the fact they are rumored to be the key to killing Chaos.
I love the concept of having Terminators in a necron list to really hurt in CC, as well as a horde of guards as 'zombies', but I will probably be using Siege of Vraks rules


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

bitsandkits is correct. Battle brothers is completely fair for Eldar and Dark Eldar have one shared philosophy - Eldar over all. 

Soon as you keep that in mind, it makes perfect sense. 

They are likely very similar to brothers in fact. 

"we can fight with each other, but you touch them and we'll kill ya"


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

aranelthemithra said:


> bitsandkits is correct. Battle brothers is completely fair for Eldar and Dark Eldar have one shared philosophy - Eldar over all.
> 
> Soon as you keep that in mind, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> ...





Azezel said:


> The Allies matrix makes very little sense.
> 
> Eldar and Dark Eldar being brothers in arms is actually fine. They may have powerful philosophical differences between their cultures, but they both know damned well what will happen if they let those differences get in the way of survival, so I see no reason why they cannot work well with one another.


Again, with the fluff, I must be missing out on something as I don't ever recall them working together as closely as the brb describes for battle brothers. "Two or more armies striving for a common goal. Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces. Such alliances are always voluntary, born out of an unyielding desire for victory."

My memory seems to be failing me on the part where they have utter trust in one another. Allies of convenience would seem a better fit.



Azezel said:


> Imperial Guard will totally fight alongside Chaos Daemons...


I spotted this gem last night along with IG allying with CSM. The only way I can think it's justified is that chaos uses the IG rather than the IG willingly helping out chaos. For CSM, corrupting IG into cultists makes for great cannon fodder and for CD, easily corruptible minds make for great gateways into the material realm.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I still say they could have easily given Nids an alliance with the Necrons. Necrons have no real bio matter to speak of, and so the Nids really wouldn’t want to consume them (yes, I’m sure they would try to kill them anyway, but bare with me for a minute). That being said, on a battle field where the opposing force does contain bio mass of some sort (basicly every other army in 40k), you would imagine that the Nids would be more interested in them first. Additionally, since the Necorns are so crafty, I could very easily imagine them luring a hive ship or two to a planet to help destroy or soften up a particularly difficult enemy. But as has already been stated, it seems as though the Allies section of the new rules was written with ‘more business’ in mind rather than fluff. 
Note: Gene Stealer cult makes a hell of a lot of sense to me too.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think the necron/tyranid combo would be so much of an alliance as it would be that the necrons wouldn't so much as interfere while the tyranids consumed their enemy. Usually the uniting factor for the desperate alliances for the other races is to drive of the great devourer. I'm pretty sure GW wanted a force that all others could unite against. Every other race besides tyranids wants to dominate the galaxy. Tyranids want to strip it of its resources and leave it lifeless.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

Azezel said:


> My personal favourite, Sisters/Black Templar are an Unholy Alliance, despite, y'know, agreeing about almost everything. Abhor the Witch, Burn the Mutant, Kill the Heretic and aparantly, Hate Each Other!
> 
> The best explanation I've heard is that Sisters are Space Catholics and Black Templars are Space Protestants... But the best bit is that Black Templars are buddy-buddy with the wolf-shagging, heretic, mutant Space Wolfs and even prefer the Grey 'everyone's a psyker' Knights...


I completely agree with this. It's one of the few things that jumped out at me win I glanced at the chart.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Azezel said:


> My personal favourite, Sisters/Black Templar are an Unholy Alliance, despite, y'know, agreeing about almost everything. Abhor the Witch, Burn the Mutant, Kill the Heretic and aparantly, Hate Each Other!
> 
> The best explanation I've heard is that Sisters are Space Catholics and Black Templars are Space Protestants... But the best bit is that Black Templars are buddy-buddy with the wolf-shagging, heretic, mutant Space Wolfs and even prefer the Grey 'everyone's a psyker' Knights...


Sisters exist because of a loop hole in the Imperial edicts. BT do NOT appreciate those who bypass the Emp's wishes so they'd not want a bar of the SoB.

They are COMMANDED by direct instruction from the Emperor (via the Inquisition) to assist the Grey Knights.

Essentially the only place the allies chart has to make sense is inside your head, like BaK says. If an alliance doesn't seem to make sense for you then trying thinking about it from a different angle, remember this is Sfi-Fi with the emphasis on the Fiction.

Rather than "ah that's rooted" try "how can I make it work for me?". The flights of fancy that the chart encourages are brilliant to my mind.

There is not one alliance that I cannot think of a reasonably plausible explanation for.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Azezel said:


> The Allies matrix makes very little sense.
> 
> Eldar and Dark Eldar being brothers in arms is actually fine. They may have powerful philosophical differences between their cultures, but they both know damned well what will happen if they let those differences get in the way of survival, so I see no reason why they cannot work well with one another.


Also, tourney legal Corsair lists perhaps?





> As mentioned, Space Marines now like and trust Tau (and vice versa),


Don't like this one. Like what it implies about a possible fluff shift even less. Space Marines have been the galaxy's intolerant, xenophobic jerks for twenty five years. Why is this changing?



> Imperial Guard will totally fight alongside Chaos Daemons...


Remember, Guard represent a _ton_ of different things. All the way from some middle tier PDF to crazed heretic traitor Guard. 



> My personal favourite, Sisters/Black Templar are an Unholy Alliance, despite, y'know, agreeing about almost everything. Abhor the Witch, Burn the Mutant, Kill the Heretic and aparantly, Hate Each Other!


 This is one of those matches that _seems_ like it would be automatic. However the Templars and Sisters believe *very* different things. Sisters believe in the divinity of the God Emperor. The Black Templars, on the other hand, specifically deny that lie, and are practicing the worship of the Emperor himself, and are stuck 10,000 years in the past carrying on with the Great Crusade/Scouring. 

Have to be sure to not get confused by the fact that they are both religious themed and hate psykers. Their beliefs are similar, but it's actually a very common real world occurrence for two very closely related offshoots to be totally irreconcilable. The best comparison is actually Space Shiites vs Space Sunnis. Cirrusly. Go look up the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslim beliefs. It's crazy what these guys have been carrying on a bloody civil war in Iraq over for _decades_. In the end, that's the kind of minor difference in interpretation that might make the Templars and Sisters not likely to get along too well. I mean, they're not likely to be violently antagonistic, but they definitely shouldn't be good friends.

The other part is that the Sisters are extreme rules lawyers. It's what makes them such good enforcers for the Ecclessiarchy and occasional tools for the Inquisition when hunting supposed heretics. The Black Templars, on the other hand, are running a heretically illegal amount of ships, Marines, and weaponry. So, in addition to being Space Marines (who inherently don't consider themselves subject to the authority of other Imperial agencies), they also wouldn't want Sisters around, tracking their movements, and snooping into the secrets of the Crusade Fleets, lol.

I like to put it this way. It's the difference between the following conversations:

"You hate witches? We hate witches. There's a witch over there. Let's go burn her."

and

"You hate witches? We totally hate witches. We should hang out all the time and burn witches. But you have to promise not to tell anybody about our illegal army, illegal fleet, or our questionable recruiting and training practices. Oh, and realize that we're probably never going to treat you as equals, and we think your whole religion is total bullcrap. Oh, and it's cool if you report back to your buddies at the Ecclessiarchy, the Inquistion, and the High Lords about where we are at, and where we are going."


Honestly, the Sisters of Battle probably have _too many_ Allies of Convenience, lol. They should be Battle Brothers with the Guard, AoC with Grey Knights, and Desperate Allies or "No Allies" with pretty much everybody else. They aren't exactly known for playing well with others.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Or even:
"You hate witches? Well we hate witches too"
"We hate them more"
"No you don't"
"Yeh we do"
"Nuh - uh Sister"
"Don't use that tone with ME!"
"Or what?"
"Just keep going and find out baldy"
"Baldy ? Looked in a mirror lately bitch?"

Witches: "Smoke 'em if ya got 'em guys, I think they'll be a while"


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

Aye, I don't agree that they should be 'battle brothers', but still shouldn't be 'desperate allies'. Being 'allies of convenience' makes more sense and still ties in with what you (both) have said.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

If the sisters of battle and Ecclesiarchy had a problem with the Black Templar (or vice versa) then why do black Templar Champlain have Rosarius? Rosarius is given to Space Marine Chaplains by the Ecclesiarchy to show their common devotion to the Emperor. This means that Black Templar's acknowledge the Ecclesiarchy. Guess which chapter doesn't get Rosarius? Space Wolves, yet sisters seem to have less of a problem with them then Black Templar's.


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## DS87 (Sep 10, 2011)

Thing is, you have to remember in the BT codex, if any army other than grey knights have a psyker, you can't ally with em anyway. Which kinda screws BT hard under the new rulebook...although I do like the idea of using BA allies *grins evilly*


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