# Is The Horus Heresy Being Spun Out Too Far?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

Is it just me or is anyone else getting really tired of the Horus Heresy Series? 

It used to be a must have, pre-order every book in the series type deal, but now its starting to really drag, and there is seemingly no end in sight.

I mean, I consider the following books to have contributed little or nothing to really progressing the story, and in some cases were just, dare I say, sh*t:

_Battle For The Abyss
Tales of Heresy
Nemesis 
Age of Darkness
Prospero Burns
The Primarch's

_Then there are about 3-4 that are good in parts, but by the end of the novel have contributed little to forwarding the series.

Then there are these books that I consider to be all-round fantastic stories that are linchpins of the series.

1-3 Sons of Horus Trilogy
_Flight of the Eisenstein
Fulgrim
Descent of Angels
Legion
Thousand Sons
First Heretic

_So, in other words, just slightly over half the series has either been disappointing or a complete waste of time.
Also, I think part of the problem is I'm getting sick of hearing about Marines and their problems. 

I recently read _Path of the Renegade_ and it was a complete breath of fresh air because I wasn't following the Emperor's Super Soldiers and their human companions.

So here is what I am asking:
*
Do you think that the Horus Heresy Series is being spun out too far and has turned into a money making scheme, rather than a series designed to flesh out the Heresy?

*
I mean, why the hell do we keep getting compilations that are either rubbish, or contain stories that don't even need to be set during the Heresy, when people have been begging for a White Scars novel for at least two years?

In fact, why the heck haven't they just go through the origins and backstories of all the Legions, rather than spending a whole book explaining how Horus was nearly assassinated ... but then wasn't (shock!).

Then we have Fulgrim 'magically' regaining his body in ... a short story. Basically undoing all the good work of one of the better books in the series.

I know I'm kind of ranting, but its just reached the stage for me were instead of being excited that the next Horus Heresy installment has been released, I now roll my eyes and just ignore it.

I personally have stopped purchasing the Series after the dual crap of _Age of Darkness _and _Prospero Burns_, and have only read some of the recent ones because friends have lent them to me. 
*
Are you guys going to keep buying them?*


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

> Do you think that the Horus Heresy Series is being spun out too far and has turned into a money making scheme, rather than a series designed to flesh out the Heresy?


Yes, but keep in mind we only had a general sense of the events of the Heresy before. Some of these stories, while ultimately irrelevant, are still good stories. Some of them. :wink: 



> Are you guys going to keep buying them?


So long as the book itself catches my interest, then yes.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I absolutely agree. I really like Nemesis and The Outcast Dead, but what would be lost if they were never written? And how many more books before we see Horus vs Sanguinius and Horus vs Emperor? The whole HH could probably have been done pretty thoroughly in several 600-700 page books.


----------



## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

D-A-C said:


> _Battle For The Abyss
> Tales of Heresy
> Nemesis
> Age of Darkness
> ...


I would agree with all of these except Prospero Burns which I thought did a good job of fleshing out the Wolves a bit and giving us the other side of Prospero's fall. And like you said, the anthologies are really hit and miss. You have some fantastic stories...and then you have a lot of boring ones.




> Also, I think part of the problem is I'm getting sick of hearing about Marines and their problems.
> 
> I recently read _Path of the Renegade_ and it was a complete breath of fresh air because I wasn't following the Emperor's Super Soldiers and their human companions.


Same here. You can easily get burned out on Space Marines. I think that's why people keep asking for books based on Legions we haven't seen. At least it would be a fresh take on the Space Marines. For example, I never got bored reading ADB's Night Lord series partly because it was a completely new take on Space Marines. 


> So here is what I am asking:
> *
> Do you think that the Horus Heresy Series is being spun out too far and has turned into a money making scheme, rather than a series designed to flesh out the Heresy?
> *


I think it still does a good job of fleshing out the HH. Know No Fear was a decent book that gave us a lot of new background information and was well-written for the most part. And at least it tried something new with its format.

I'm still going to keep buying em. 3 or 4 books come out a year so it's not THAT bad.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> Is it just me or is anyone else getting really tired of the Horus Heresy Series?
> 
> It used to be a must have, pre-order every book in the series type deal, but now its starting to really drag, and there is seemingly no end in sight.


No there is an end in sight, The Siege of Terra, we just can't see everything that lies inbetween Istvaan and Terra.



D-A-C said:


> I mean, I consider the following books to have contributed little or nothing to really progressing the story, and in some cases were just, dare I say, sh*t:
> 
> _Battle For The Abyss
> Tales of Heresy
> ...


These stories were not about progressing the Heresy, they were about exploring it. The Heresy is vastly fertile ground for new stories and mysteries to arise, so novels like Nemesis and Battle for the Abyss are about showing the side-lines and behind the scenes of the Heresy. And the anthologies do the same, and in some cases like _The Reflection Crack'd_ serve as a prologue to a coming novel as TRC does for _Angel Exterminatus_. And _The Lion_ is adding a new plotline with that creature the Dark Angels have taken custody of.

That and _Tales of Heresy_ gave us _The Last Church_, which I consider to be one of the best short stories in the entire BL range and is something that non-fans should read as well.



D-A-C said:


> Then there are these books that I consider to be all-round fantastic stories that are linchpins of the series.
> 
> 1-3 Sons of Horus Trilogy
> _Flight of the Eisenstein
> ...


Many awesome novels there, though I disagree on _Descent of Angels_ as I think that one was a bit more mediocre than the others there. But half of the series has been mixed because of its topics, new stories that have been started and ended in the middle of the Heresy. That and the different authors mean that many fresh ideas and different viewpoints come into the Heresy but it also raises the chances of some people liking one novel and not liking another because of their attitude towards that writer.

And of course you can get a bit tired of the Space Marines, that is why I read many other non-BL series, to break it up, though I still never tire of them. But _Path of the Renegade_ and the _Eldar Path_ series are wonderfully new and inventive, and hopefully will open the door for other aliens to get novels like the Orks and Tau.



D-A-C said:


> So here is what I am asking:
> 
> *Do you think that the Horus Heresy Series is being spun out too far and has turned into a money making scheme, rather than a series designed to flesh out the Heresy?*


No I do not. I think that what you are complaining about is exactly what they are doing, fleshing out the Heresy with the stories we didn't know existed. _Nemesis_ for example was not in Heresy lore but it did many things, including explaining why Assassins were not used against The Emperor and Horus, a good question that further explains why Horus drives towards Terra so hard and shows just how much he wants to kill The Emperor himself.



D-A-C said:


> I mean, why the hell do we keep getting compilations that are either rubbish, or contain stories that don't even need to be set during the Heresy, when people have been begging for a White Scars novel for at least two years?
> 
> In fact, why the heck haven't they just go through the origins and backstories of all the Legions, rather than spending a whole book explaining how Horus was nearly assassinated ... but then wasn't (shock!).


We will get a White Scars novel eventually, but the compilations are all about creating new stories and telling the stories that cannot be a full novel because they do not have the story mass for it. Example, the coming _Shadows of Treachery_ has a novella story called _The Crimson Fist_ which will reveal what happened to the fleet that Dorn sent to Istvaan, something many fans have been asking about since _Flight of the Eisenstein_ when Dorn sent the fleet.

And because we know most of them and don't need to know every single thing about them. The Legions were founded by The Emperor and eventually met their Primarchs by travelling through the galaxy, not exactly novel material. If anything it can be explained or shown in a chapter of a novel about that particular Legion.



D-A-C said:


> Then we have Fulgrim 'magically' regaining his body in ... a short story. Basically undoing all the good work of one of the better books in the series.
> 
> I know I'm kind of ranting, but its just reached the stage for me were instead of being excited that the next Horus Heresy installment has been released, I now roll my eyes and just ignore it.
> 
> ...


He tricked the Daemon into giving him his body back, and because Slaanesh wants him to have the body and not some little Daemon. And its a great move because now it opens up a new world of possibilities for Fulgrim to show just how depraved he is and how he became pure evil. _Angel Exterminatus_ will feature him greatly and we'll see a lot more of just what kind of person Fulgrim is becoming.

Bad move. _Know No Fear_ has been one of the best novels of the entire series and is a must read. I would recommend you keep getting the main novels, ignore the anthologies if you so wish but don't forsake the main novels just because there have been some you don't like.

And well I get them in advance in exchange for advance reviews but if I didn't I would still buy them.


LotN


----------



## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

D-A-C said:


> *Do you think that the Horus Heresy Series is being spun out too far and has turned into a money making scheme, rather than a series designed to flesh out the Heresy?*


It's proven itself to be a money-printing machine. All laws of business demand that this cow be milked until it dries or dies. The majority shareholders would have someone's nuts in a vise otherwise.



> In fact, why the heck haven't they just go through the origins and backstories of all the Legions,


Great idea. :good::good::good:



LotN said:


> These stories were not about progressing the Heresy, they were about exploring it. The Heresy is vastly fertile ground for new stories and mysteries to arise, so novels like Nemesis and Battle for the Abyss are about showing the side-lines and behind the scenes of the Heresy.


The Heresy time frame is fertile ground indeed; and yet, by seeing "Horus Heresy" people also want to feel that there is some sense of closure/completion on the horizon. I think it would be great if BL just did a series of books titled something like "Tales of the 31st Milennium" or something like that, and then we could explore all these wonderful side stories and not feel like "Yeah, that's great and all, but what about Horus and the Emperor going toe to toe?" But of course, the familiarity is already associated with the HH moniker, so as long as people buy it, they will keep coming.

What other problems do people have with the HH books? Are they churning them out too fast? Decreased quality? Are they allowing authors that are not "top-tier" shots at writing HH material? Too many anthologies/audio dramas? A little bit of all those? I think HH should be the luxury brand level of BL book, like the Caddy to the Chevys. New authors should get their crack at standalone Imperial Guard novels, and it seemed to be like that for a while. Then maybe work up to a Space Marine Battles book, then maybe a duology or trilogy of some Chapter, etc. And then, maybe you can get a shot at writing some HH stuff. (P.S., please get Rob Sanders to write a full HH novel. I haven't read The Serpent Beneath yet, but I think he could do a novel excellently).


----------



## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

IIRC in an interview ADB said that for a while the HH books were just sort of hanging out in the 30k era but now each book needs to progress the story in some way or another.


----------



## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I love the books but I'm getting pissed off with so many audio books and limited edition releases coming along now, I feel like I'm missing half the story not getting those things.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Still loving the series, each book opens up more of the 30k universe which tbh, I like a whole lot more than the 40k universe atm. I like it because it's not entirely explained there's still mystery etc in it, where as in 40k all the big events have happened, you know the outcome and apparently the story won't progress any further because it won't be 40k anymore it'll be 50k.

There's so much in the heresy that remains un explained and new stuff is being introduced all the time and it's still interesting. Yes there are books that ain't as exciting, personally I think we could of done without Descent of Angels, adding a bit to Fallen might of been better rather than having a whole book on origins of the Dark Angels. 

Still it showed us in detail how they came about, it just feels out of place when other legions don't get the same attention to detail.

Personally if they put this much detail into the rest of Warhammer 40k and have a prime timeline that takes everything into consideration, I'd like 40k a lot more, right now the sporadic stories are very disjointed from the universe. 

How many times does an avatar have to die before writers realise it's no longer a special accomplishment? Same with Titans etc Heresy stories fit together, all the 40k stories don't feel like they are connected at all, they seem like throw away stories which could of happened at any time and barely make an impact on the universe.

Books like ADB's Night Lords series, feel like they are part of the 40k universe by drawing on the rest of the universe and retrospective thoughts on the past that most readers will know about. Others such as Dan Abnett's I'm afraid seem to shut the door on the rest of the universe and create their own mini universe without thinking of it's implications on the rest of the universe, maybe not the best choice of an example but thats the feeling I get when I read any of his books. 

Maybe the worse example I still hate is the story of how a traitor marine constantly came out of the warp to kill the same geneseed carrying Imperial Fists and he'd done it 4 times and couldn't fail because the gods cursed him to always do it..I mean if a god can curse a marine to always succeed against one foe, then why not do it for all of them, that's just an example of 40k stories which really don't feel like they belong and really bore me.

TLDR - Horus Heresy is ever including new unique stories that have an impact on a larger story. 40k stories slide new things in which don't have any impact on the larger story and usually ignore past stories.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I think it’s taking too long. If they want to flesh out the series fine, but do it after the siege of Terra. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest to read back-story after the “end” of the heresy. 

I think they have more than enough loose ends to tie up without creating more and to be frank the longer they make the series the more likely the authors (and editors) are to slip up and forget more important details like when the Emperor became aware of the heresy and sat on the throne. 

At very least I’d like a list of the books they plan to release leading right up to the siege.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's currently following the general narrative the _Collected Visions_ went in, but that only helps if you have it.


----------



## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's currently following the general narrative the _Collected Visions_ went in, but that only helps if you have it.


So what's in store as of the last novel (Know No Fear I think it is)...?

Where are we in the Collected Visions?


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Signus Prime and the Blood Angels, then it goes on to Khan and the Wolf and then forces Dorn sent to Istvaan. So maybe Khan and the Wolf might be in Shadows of Treachery.

It does seem they are trying to write stand alone books in the right chronological order though. I think you have to imagine that the Word Bearer's attacking Calth is at the same time as around Garro finally meets Malcador, this is reinforced by Garro heading to Calth to recruit his Librarian.

In general though it's going in the same order.

Btw: Did I read some where about Word Bearers being on the border of the Solar system is going to be in a book soon because I found that part to.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

TheReverend said:


> I love the books but I'm getting pissed off with so many audio books and limited edition releases coming along now, I feel like I'm missing half the story not getting those things.


You aren't. The audio-books are worth listening to if you can but I doubt they'll be absolutely 100% completely vital to the full series. And the Limited novellas are just that, limited stories that are enjoyable but as to being necessary for the overall story, no way.

Personally though the only audios for the Heresy I think should really be listened to are the Garro audios.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

In short, no, I like that it's not being rushed and still believe there is a vast amount of gaps that need to be filled and other known plotlines explored(Fall of the Death Guard for example).

As for your list. _Prospero Burns_ imo contributed to the Heresy, not only exploring the Wolves and their motivations and attitude pre-Heresy, but more importantly showed just how far back chaos had been setting the Heresy up. Even further back than the events of the First Heretic, having long ago manipulated two of the most powerful Legions(or would become two of the most dangerous) into distrusting each other and generating antagonism towards the other so that when the Heresy was finally ready they could eliminate two Legions before the Heresy had even started or anyone had even noticed. To me, very important.

_Descent of Angels_ on the other hand, imo didn't contribute all that much and is right down at the bottom of my Heresy listing.


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

As long as they tell the story of the Heresy in a way that doesn't feel like they've pulled up a stool and are milking it for all it's worth, then I'm game for it.


----------



## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Said this before that i have almost lost total interest in reading much HH novels anymore. Last four have been total letdowns, even Abnett's Know no Fear was brilliant at beginning but quickly fell apart.

I will continue buy them of course, but they are not even near top of my reading list anymore like few years ago.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Whilst i've consistently over the years defended the Heresy series in it's many and varied explorations of different plot angles, characters and heresy-lore. I am starting to sympathise with your viewpoint _D-A-C_. Don't get me wrong, I love the Heresy series, but my enthusiasm has significantly dulled over the last few months.

It has been 17 (+ several novellas/audio-books) novels since we were properly with the apparent pro/antagonist of the whole war: Horus. Whilst the Warmaster has made appearances/cameos in several novels since, I think a return to XVI Legion is long overdue. We havn't seen them at all really since Isstvan V (and that generally applies to most of the Traitor Legions as well) and we didn't even see that from their perspective. How did each Legion justify their betrayal? How did they become _Chaos_ Space Marines? How does Horus view Chaos and the aid the gods grant him? The only gllimpse of the XVI Legion post-Isstvan I believe was in the short story _Little Horus_ and in _Nemesis_, both of which failed to even begin to answer the aforementioned questions. That is the main thing getting on my nerves, I hope we don't just end up at the Siege of Terra with the Space Marines of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus (and indeed the other Legions) having become _Chaos_ Space Marines without explanation or justification.

The opening trilogy (despite it's flaws) was so successful because it was driving the main plotline, as well as hosting numerous great characters (Loken first amongst them). Despite not having read any of the first three novels in years I could name off the top of my head most of the characters, a feat which I couldn't replicate for most other Heresy novels. I've loved some of the explorations of other plot-lines (_Legion_, _The First Heretic_ and the Prospero duology for example) and hated others (_Battle for the Abyss_ and _Nemesis_) and I understand they are required, but I just worry we are missing out on large parts of the central plot because of constant diversions. By all means tell the other tales and plots, they are essential. But try to do it without losing focus on the main plotline, something which I feel has been done over the last few novels.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

In short yes, its being used as a cash cow. Problem is we keep fecking buying them.


----------



## deepsix81 (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm sure this has been voiced somewhere before, but I like the way that the _Heresy_ series is playing out. I think it would be/would have been a mistake to rush to the siege, and I enjoy exploring all of the different tentacles that come out of this huge event. 

Frankly, the siege will be a bit anti-climactic in some regards. Mainly because _we know what's going to happen_. It will be an awesome couple of books, with some interesting perspectives, I'm sure. But there won't be any kind of meaningful revelations or twists (at least not without the entire 40K fanbase losing their collective minds). 

So yeah, I'm happier to read about Chaos manipulating the Wolves into nearly killing off a brother legion. Or learning more about what's got Lion El and his legion basically split down the middle. More interesting (to me, at least) than a battle who's outcome is already decided.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The last Heresy book I read was either Nemesis or First Heretic (whichever was the latest book out of those two) and to be honest I gave up because I got bored. I loved the first few books, they really drove the story forward and gave some amazing insights into Primarchs but now things have just got tedious. 
Yes there are probably millions of stories that could be told about the Heresy but I don't want to read a million stories, I want to read the good bits.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

normtheunsavoury said:


> The last Heresy book I read was either Nemesis or First Heretic (whichever was the latest book out of those two) and to be honest I gave up because I got bored. I loved the first few books, they really drove the story forward and gave some amazing insights into Primarchs but now things have just got tedious.
> Yes there are probably millions of stories that could be told about the Heresy but I don't want to read a million stories, I want to read the good bits.


Well there's some real mile stone books that capture the main plot of the Heresy, the most recent being _Know No Fear_, the next being _Fear to Tread_, so I guess it's about targeting the ones that as you say are only the good bits


----------



## Thyr (Oct 25, 2010)

We all know how the HH is going to end and I still thoroughly enjoy the journey of getting there. There are so many little details that make me smile from ear to ear while reading the books. I like getting to see yet unexplored occurances or things that have never been mentioned before. I'm glad that BL not only focuses on the big events that we all know already. There's no need to rush to the end IMO. 

I know I will keep on buying and enjoying the books. *shrugs*


----------



## Good Minton (Sep 1, 2010)

In answer to the initial question of the thread, I do not read anything else but the Horus Heresy, so no, I don't think it has been spun out too far at all.

However, the above comes from a purely selfish desire for it not to end anytime soon. 
I only read HH books for the simple reason that this all started (warhammer 40k) when I was a young man and my only real interest then was the HH and the Primarchs. As the HH fluff was sketchy then, to say the least, I drifted away from reading white dwarf and consequently 40k entirely.

(I nearly didn't read anything at all due having never previously seen at that time, and initially being quite terrified of, a cyberpunk goth cross dressing man like the chap who owned games unlimited in kingston, nice chap it turned out and not scary at all, not to customers anyway)

Anyway, It was only a few of years ago that I saw Horus Rising on Amazon and took a chance on it as it reminded me of when I was young and how much I enjoyed reading aout the Primarchs. I must admit that the series has captured my imagination again as an *ahem* older man. 

I personally hope the series goes on for quite a while yet, for good or bad, because when it's over. I shall probably cast 40k adrift again and, frankly, I don't want to do that for a few years yet.




TheReverend said:


> I love the books but I'm getting pissed off with so many audio books and limited edition releases coming along now, I feel like I'm missing half the story not getting those things.


Although I am clearly, massively, rose tinted about the series, (even though there have been a couple of stinkers!), I have to agree with the Rev. It really does get on my nerves how easy it is to miss out on these things!!!!!!!! 
I do have all the limited editions and audio books etc, but I undertsand the frustrations of those that miss out and I would be proper pissed off if I missed out for one reason or another and had to wait years or pay well over the odds on ebay for what is, basically, some good old fashioned greed by BL.


----------



## jasonpittman (May 17, 2010)

I'm still loving the Heresy books, it was these books that got me back into the Warhammer universe. I used to play the game and was intrigued by the Heresy but when I used to play the game there was hardly any info at all about it, this was over 20 years ago mind. One day while browsing through the books at my local bookshop I stumbled across Horus rising and thanks to that book I was reintroduced to the world of Warhammer and now it's pretty much all I read. Aside from the Ciaphas Cain novels the HH novels are by far my favourite and I for one will be gutted when they come to an end.

The only ones I didn't enjoy were Nemesis and Prospero Burns apart from that I love them all.

The limited editions and audio dramas annoy me I don't like listening to books and I know I'm not missing any major plot points but I still wanted to read every story and the limited editions make that difficult.


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I for one have enjoyed all but 1, battle for the big hungry hole and thats because I could not get into it like the opers. I liked Nemisis and I think is was clever in the way it showed you the failures that went into the HH as well as pointing out why they did not just nuke horus from orbit. I've not gotten to the new one, babies are a real drag on the bank account :biggrin:...

I will continue the series because I devoure any new fluff I can get my hands on for this setting. I love all of it really and cannot get enought. 

I do have to say that by and large we are not reading the cream of the crop writers in some cases. Its not like Steven King is going to come over to BL, but I think the stable of writers they have are doing the best they can with what they have. I would even go so far as to say the quality of the character development and the settings have improved since the start.

The HH series is one of the few series which I have re-read cover to cover. I actually just finished Prospero Burns for a third time and am thinking of reading up The Outcast Dead for a second time, I need to get the first 5 again as they were left in the UK when I moved back to the states.


----------



## Captain_Daerys_Arrun (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm getting tired of the whole "sypathy for the devil" routine. Fulgrim, Magnus, Lorgar, and Horus to some extent, seem like they were victems of circumstance and their choice wasn't up to them. That's fine but were is the otherside, a primarch who made his choice with a clear head and a lack of "remorse". 

And what about the lack of time spent on the loyalists. Ultramarines book 19, Blood Angels, Salamanders coming soon, but the Imperial Fists and White Scars are barely footnotes. Dorn gets some time, but nothing about his Legion. Weren't they all suposedly tempted by chaos? Were are those stories?

I think overall the books have been good, but a bit inconsistant. I do wish they would get to the siege but as long as they keep putting out good books, I'm not in a huge hurry. I also hope they don't stop at the seige but tell about the traitors getting kicked back into the eye.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ah, but that is the magic of Fulgrim's new story. See, as it turns out, he really is just a ROYAL, flaming, bell ringing cunt, and there not a single redeeming quality that can be ascribed to the man. Now, 20 odd books in, we have a primarch we can really just hate for who he is, and it feels great. :laugh:


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I am liking the entire series so-far. To me, I see no point in rushing to the end -- to the climax of Horus vs. The Emperor. We all know how it ends. There can be no changing that. So why rush to see it?

If we didn't know the ending, if there was somehow some vagueness to who won the Horus Heresy (if such a thing is even plausible), then I agree it would be entering stagnation and obscene profit-munching. I don't really give a damn about a battle between the Emperor and Horus - I'm pretty sure its going exactly the way I imagine it in my mind. 

Therefore my philosphy on the Heresy is simple -- sit back and enjoy the ride. Yes, some books will be hard to read (Battle for the Abyss ... Nemesis), while others we will munch upon the moment we grab them (First Heretic, Galaxy In Flames, ect). 

Take it easy guys. Grab a drink, some snacks, or whatever. Kick back and enjoy the ride. Its going to be a long one.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Captain_Daerys_Arrun said:


> I'm getting tired of the whole "sypathy for the devil" routine. Fulgrim, Magnus, Lorgar, and Horus to some extent, seem like they were victems of circumstance and their choice wasn't up to them. That's fine but were is the otherside, a primarch who made his choice with a clear head and a lack of "remorse".


The whole "sympathy for the devil" routine does have a part to play with some of the Primarchs though, Magnus especially. In fact, to varying extents, _all_ of the fallen Primarchs were tragedies, so there has to be some element of "sympathy for the devil". But I agree it would be nice to see some old fashion Primarch's turning because they simply chose to, though there should be enough opportunity for that with Perturabo, Angron, Curze, Mortarion and even Fulgrim to a greater extent than previously, given the revelations of _Reflection Crack'd_. 



Captain_Daerys_Arrun said:


> And what about the lack of time spent on the loyalists. Ultramarines book 19, Blood Angels, Salamanders coming soon, but the Imperial Fists and White Scars are barely footnotes. Dorn gets some time, but nothing about his Legion. Weren't they all suposedly tempted by chaos? Were are those stories?


Thats a very good point. As far as I am aware, we only have direct information on Sanguinius being tempted by Ka'Banda during the war for Signus Prime. But the lore does state that every Primarch was tempted, perhaps many occured in much more subtle ways though.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

When a series has been stretched out so long that it starts retconning itself, then yes, it's been spun out too far.

That being said, I'll probably still be buying the books till the series is complete.


----------



## deepsix81 (Dec 24, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> When a series has been stretched out so long that it starts retconning itself, then yes, it's been spun out too far.
> 
> That being said, I'll probably still be buying the books till the series is complete.


I love all of the new angles and storylines that have come about/are coming around, but I never thought of it this way. There have been a number of times when the history of this series has been 're-written' in some ways, and maybe that is a sign of stretching things too thin. Good point


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If the Horus Heresy series wasn't around then personally I wouldn't be spending as much money on books and GW stuff.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think they should totally stop writing 40k novels for the time being and put all authors onto HH projects. we could go for years with how they fleshing things out but new stuff comes out so slowly it just makes it seem like it dragging on. if everything they produced at BL was HH then i think we wouldnt get this feeling about it. 

by all means flesh it out but speed up the rate of producing new stuff for God-Emperors sake!


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i think they should totally stop writing 40k novels for the time being and put all authors onto HH projects. we could go for years with how they fleshing things out but new stuff comes out so slowly it just makes it seem like it dragging on. if everything they produced at BL was HH then i think we wouldnt get this feeling about it.
> 
> by all means flesh it out but speed up the rate of producing new stuff for God-Emperors sake!


I think 2-3 books a year is a more than adequate publishing speed, in fact I can't think of any other book series- by *any* publisher- that is being released as quickly. Also I enjoy reading the 40k and WFB stuff that's being released, I'd never want to sacrifice them just to get another couple of HH novels out each year.


----------



## nioveratus (Jan 27, 2012)

I'd personally like to see more HH novels....once you read them, going back to the regular SM novels seems pointless...I do appreciate these novels but I would definitely be more interested in finding out new things about the HH..We need more of HH....HH>SM


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

My preference would be (or would have been) to see the progression of immediate pre-heresy through the Siege of Terra and then go back to do all of the filler. While I enjoy the filler material, I really would have preferred the storyline to progress at a more rapid pace.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> I think 2-3 books a year is a more than adequate publishing speed, in fact I can't think of any other book series- by *any* publisher- that is being released as quickly. Also I enjoy reading the 40k and WFB stuff that's being released, I'd never want to sacrifice them just to get another couple of HH novels out each year.


what other series has such scope as the horus heresy though. but for the amount of 40k novels they churn out i think 2-3 novels a year in their best selling series is very mediocre in publishing terms. i mean 40k is its own series but the overall story is nothing compared to HH yet we are getting minimal amounts of story being put out per year and if they dont flesh it out more per year its either gonna take forever to tell in its entirity or we are gonna miss out on plenty of juicy storys just to get to the end game.

with 40k never really going anywhere id much prefer to read random tales of 30k than random tales of 40k. for me 40k is just getting stale as its always just SM books doing the same thing but by a different chapter but with 30k you are actually reading about the legends that 40k hasnt got, ones that some of you guys think shouldnt return to 40k which would really put some life into the stagnant tale of a crumbling galactic empire if they did return.

if you dont agree thats fine but thats the way i see it and probably how alot of other readers see/starting to see it too.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_@Unknown Primarch_: I, like you, prefer the Heresy series compared to the 40k novels, to the extent that I now rarely buy anything from BL other than the Heresy novels. But you have to be realistic; if, as you suggested, BL throw all of their contracted authors onto the Heresy series over half of the novels would be utter shit, and the already complicated chronology and tie-ins would be near impossible to keep track of. You also have to take into account that the main authors that are involved in the Heresy series (Abnett, Swallow, Mcneill and Dembski-Bowden) do have other things to do and write and concentrate on other than the Heresy series, you cannot expect them to put their life on hold for a few years just to turn this series out faster.

I think 2-3 novels a year is more than a reasonable output.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

each to their own but wouldnt it be quite fresh if they actually let more than just the usual suspects write HH novels. now i dont mean the main story plot as this could be covered by the 2-3 novels per year but seeing as BL like to flesh it out then certain authors could take the side stories and do the bits like 'nemesis'. 

that novel didnt really need much thinking about did it but was in there for a purpose, even if it wasnt a major plot point. it would be quite workable and would actually be good for HH to have some stories from someone elses mind besides the big guns.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> each to their own but wouldnt it be quite fresh if they actually let more than just the usual suspects write HH novels. now i dont mean the main story plot as this could be covered by the 2-3 novels per year but seeing as BL like to flesh it out then certain authors could take the side stories and do the bits like 'nemesis'.
> 
> that novel didnt really need much thinking about did it but was in there for a purpose, even if it wasnt a major plot point. it would be quite workable and would actually be good for HH to have some stories from someone elses mind besides the big guns.


The established authors on the series have generally received consistently good reviews, whilst the 'one-offs' in the series quite frankly havn't (see _Descent of Angels_ and _Battle for the Abyss_, and to a lesser extent _Galaxy in Flames_ and _Fallen Angels_). Giving a heresy novel (as their flagship series) to an unestablished author is a big risk for BL, the author will at least have to be tried and tested in the much wider world of 40k/WFB fiction first, and even then success in the heresy series is still unassured (see Ben Counter).

I would rather have the whole series written by established and tested authors (and wait longer), rather than suffer the unpredictability of new authors for no other reason than to release the novels quicker. Obviously though, if an author is good enough and has been well received in the world of BL fiction, by all means welcome him onboard (see AD-B). But to do it simply for the sake of pouring the series out quicker would be illogical.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

well if thats the case then every HH novel has to be killer because it seems a waste of a good authors time to write a filler novel like 'nemesis' or 'battle of the abyss'.

for me the anthologys are a good proving ground and then they could advance to a fringe novel like 'nemesis' and if their really good, have the chance to advance to the main plot but to be honest i dont think there would be many who break through like what adb did.

for me though i dont know why people hate on DA HH as i think they are decent and will prove to be a good story arc once all the bits have been written and BotA is still an ok addition in the Ultramar saga of HH once all that is laided down. 

while not stellar stories they still add to the whole saga and we probably do need them to be written so to convey the grandness of the tale but leaving them to the prime authors, if they are so busy, doesnt seem practical so give them to the secondary authors, let them cut their teeth on the minor tales and it will work out for everyone.

BL will do what they want to do so we can debate it all we want but we have our opinions and you only hope BL will do things for the best i suppose.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> well if thats the case then every HH novel has to be killer because it seems a waste of a good authors time to write a filler novel like 'nemesis' or 'battle of the abyss'.


You may see them as "filler novels", but BL doesn't. Why are they less important than what you would term the central novels?



Unknown Primarch said:


> for me the anthologys are a good proving ground and then they could advance to a fringe novel like 'nemesis' and if their really good, have the chance to advance to the main plot but to be honest i dont think there would be many who break through like what adb did.


You're right, anthologies are a good method of 'breaking in' new authors, and that has been a method used by BL: John French, Chris Wraight, Rob Sanders and Nick Kyme all featured in _Age of Darkness_ for example. Now it seems that Nick Kyme and Chris Wraight will be featuring more prominently in the series, with rumours suggesting both will be writing a full novel at some point in the future. So it seems that that is a method BL are using to test and incorporate authors into the series.



Unknown Primarch said:


> for me though i dont know why people hate on DA HH as i think they are decent and will prove to be a good story arc once all the bits have been written and BotA is still an ok addition in the Ultramar saga of HH once all that is laided down.
> 
> while not stellar stories they still add to the whole saga and we probably do need them to be written so to convey the grandness of the tale but leaving them to the prime authors, if they are so busy, doesnt seem practical so give them to the secondary authors, let them cut their teeth on the minor tales and it will work out for everyone.
> 
> BL will do what they want to do so we can debate it all we want but we have our opinions and you only hope BL will do things for the best i suppose.


Individually, our opinions don't matter. But you cannot deny that Abnett/Mcneill/Dembski-Bowden novels have consistently received positive reviews whilst others written by less established authors havn't, such as _Descent of Angels_ and _Battle for the Abyss_ - a quick browse of Amazon.co.uk will show you that, as will deeper investigation across the forums. 

Also, is there such a thing as minor and major novels within the series? Thats what I guess I am getting at. In terms of the plot, what makes _Nemesis_ or _Battle for the Abyss_ less important than _Fulgrim_ or _Horus Rising_? Thus getting less established authors to write any novel is still a huge risk.


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I will be really bummed if Nick Kyme gets to write a full length Heresy novel. I have yet to read anything by him that I thought was good enough for the line. Sure he can do some serviceable work, but man do I dislike his style and pacing.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> I will be really bummed if Nick Kyme gets to write a full length Heresy novel. I have yet to read anything by him that I thought was good enough for the line. Sure he can do some serviceable work, but man do I dislike his style and pacing.


I agree. All of his contributions to the series how ranged from forgettable (_Forgotten Sons_) to outright dull (_Promethean Sun_ and _Feat of Iron_). Based on his contributions so far, I wouldn't look forward to a full novel of his at all.


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

space cowboy said:


> I will be really bummed if Nick Kyme gets to write a full length Heresy novel. I have yet to read anything by him that I thought was good enough for the line. Sure he can do some serviceable work, but man do I dislike his style and pacing.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree. All of his contributions to the series how ranged from forgettable (_Forgotten Sons_) to outright dull (_Promethean Sun_ and _Feat of Iron_). Based on his contributions so far, I wouldn't look forward to a full novel of his at all.


To be honest I think every BL writer featured in the Horus Heresy series has shown some fallibility.

Abnett, McNeill, A-D-B and others have shown that, when the story is muddled or lacking, even the best of them fall down.

Again this is more a structural problem with how the series is being stretched out and written out of sequence.

Stories that are minor or larely irrelevant are being placed in the series and so are diluting the material.

Perfect example that I've been discussing elsewhere; The Story featured in the _The Primarchs _relating to Fulgrim, undoes the plot of the novel _Fulgrim_.

I feel that the more cluttered the series gets the more it gets watered down.

In my opinion, to date there have been around 11 books that deserve their status in the series, whilst the rest, at best, show slight glimpses of things that didn't necessarily be told at this particular point in the series.

We are 20+ books in and half the Legions have no backstory and some barely feature at all.

That's just not cricket in my book.


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't like Kyme's 40k stuff either, so I am not just talking about his Heresy contributions.


----------



## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't like Kyme's 40k stuff too, hope to read more about Death Guard and Sons of Horus and of course Alpha Legion! The Heresy is really spun too far especially when we know that almost all dramaticae personae from the evil side survive! Iam praying that at the end of Heresy Black Library would change some fluff and kill 1 of the major-primarch class bad guys! Look for yourself - Emperor near dies, Sanguinius dead, Manus dead - and on the bad side only Horus (dont count bad guys - who dies after the heresy)! Its sad thats soo many of the bad guy survived! They cant kill Fulgrim - he must mortally wound Guilliman, same goes for Lorgar, Magnus, Angron, Perturabo - they have fluff after that! But they could kill Mortarion for example - how cool would be that =)?


----------



## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Perfect example that I've been discussing elsewhere; The Story featured in the _The Primarchs _relating to Fulgrim, undoes the plot of the novel _Fulgrim_.


 I'm assuming you're talking about him reasserting control of himself and to be fair in Aurelian, Lorgar does tell the demon "Enjoy your vessel while it lasts" (or very similiar to that)which implys that Fulgrim was coming back at some point. But that would be more of the ding on the limited editions not the authors writing them.

And for Anakwanar- they can't kill Mortarion for then who else would help Draigo perfect his heart carving skills?


----------

