# Low model count great army



## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok I need a LOW model count army that does well wins like 50/50 or slightly better so far I am hooked on Ogres are ther any others?
I paint like crap and have little time so Ogres seemed like a perfect fit max models like 50 ogres and thats a big army.
Wow it still seems like Ogres are perfect for me. I am just worried that they are the Imperial Guard of fantasy "You know the joke the only way a Guard army will win a battle is if its playing another guard army."


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Wow, outdated views on IG, but whatever, on to the root of this.

If you want something that you can win with pretty easy, then Ogres probably aren't the answer. Warriors of Chaos, some Lizzie builds, and Dark or High Elves are all races with relatively low model count and a good chance of winning. Anything more specific here?


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

It is probably between Ogres/VC or WOC.
Ogres: fear,stomp,they are BIG

WOC: hand to hand monsters

V/C: Crypt ghouls with 2 attacks each and poison with enough spells to make them kill almost anything if I take 4 vamps with Lore of light.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Warriors of Chaos can do Ogres better than Ogres can do Ogres, in a way.

Take Throgg, and Trolls, and you've got an army with 4+ Regen and basic S5. However, they ARE Initiative 1, though, so suffer from Sun-itis, Pit-itis, Dweller-itis, etc even more than Ogres.

There's a discussion around about Kholek and how good he is - at the minute, for a monster army, I'm in Favour of Galrauch, with his Flight, Magic, I6, and 3 Breath Weapons, although he lacks the straight up hitting power of Kholek, although Kholek pretty much dominates challenges and monsters, unless your opponent has a S6+ Double/D3/D6 wounding weapon.

VC have large model counts, unless you max out Blood Dragons Wights and Characters. Even so, in a 2000 point army, 500pts of Crypt Ghouls is still 62 Ghouls, compared to 11 Trolls.


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## Kulzanar (Aug 10, 2010)

When looking for such an army I'd also say WoC or High Elves.

WoC can be used in any way, warriors, knights, trolls, dragon ogres, etc. Your choice of models and how many you actually want to paint. They are indeed combat monsters but lack the shooting, something I think outweighs from time to time, untill you reach their line that is. For painting, you can keep your warriors simple but when marking them and having them WYSIWYG you might have to try out on some color schemes on a model or two. How to capture the blood in Khorne armour or how to have Nurgle as filthy, but still good-looking, as possible.


High Elves, I actually spit on their name, you thought they were hard with ASF well now they mostly have a re-roll to hit against you. They can do great combat with ASF,re-roll to hit great weapons (no ASF and ASL do not cancel eachother out here, High Elf special rule), 4 rank fighting spearmen or lothern seaguard, the ability to place good shooting units and top mages. High Elves are quite an opponent but their low-model count is their weakness, but you can work your way around that. For painting, High Elves have white, blue and metal colors, making them quite easy and simple to paint after a white undercoat. Some hair, flesh, weapons and armour and clothing and they're ready to go.

VC is a possibility with Blood knights, wights and so on. But I find such lists sometimes lacking to much, you have ghouls, use them. And you want your ressurection spells. VC is mostly to many models so I wouldn't suggest it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

WoC WYSIWYG doesn't require you to actually paint them in a particular manner. The mark could be a tattoo hidden under their skin.


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## Kulzanar (Aug 10, 2010)

True, but personally, I like Khorne more bloody and Nurgle more filthy. And honestly, I find it quite lame (no offense intended) when you just paint them metallic or black and then say they are marked and blessed but that it's not visible. While actually they wear their blessings in the open as a sign of pride and decorate their armour with things referring to their patron god. You don't have to do 4-5 layers paint of different colouring to go from dark to light, one layer can be enough but then it's also personal choice.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Beastmen can be a low model count army too if you go for Minotaurs and Chariots.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

There are quite a few armies that can be built with few models. most elves have some form of elite build that have few models.
Dwarfs can be built artillery and character heavy with few small units to make it legal.
empire can do the same but will inevitably have more to paint than the dwarves unless you use lots of cavalry.
the armies that don't really have a true elite build are Skaven and [email protected] as their stuff is to cheap.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Kulzanar said:


> True, but personally, I like Khorne more bloody and Nurgle more filthy. And honestly, I find it quite lame (no offense intended) when you just paint them metallic or black and then say they are marked and blessed but that it's not visible. While actually they wear their blessings in the open as a sign of pride and decorate their armour with things referring to their patron god. You don't have to do 4-5 layers paint of different colouring to go from dark to light, one layer can be enough but then it's also personal choice.


I know it's a bit off topic, but - http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=593551&postcount=293

Also, saying (no offence) is not a get out jail free card if you say something's lame. I couldn't say Hey, ****** (no offence), or whatever. Just remember that.


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## Babypowder (Nov 10, 2009)

I've never really played fantasy so I don't know much but I have been wanting to get into it. So I've been looking through all the army books alot and making little lists and such because I kind of want the same thing you do with low model counts and all.

It seems somewhat possible to do with every army. Of course it seems like some do it better than others, but I've always kind of thought that if you learn your army well enough and play a big enough variety of games winning 50/50 would be possible with almost any army you like. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, pick the army you like the best! Cliche I know, but take it a step further and don't just pick an army you like the best, pick an army that you like it's bigger/more elite units best, if this is the type of list you are wanting to do.

Ogres are the most obvious choice I think when you want a low model count. The general impression I get from what I've read around is that they're not the army to pick if you want to win. Though I have read many things that say they have actually gotten a little better in 8th edition. And I've also read plenty of success stories about them so it seems to me if you are wanting to be a 50/50 winner you could probably do it with Ogres unless you go to nothing but hardcore tournaments and such.

Another that seems easy to do it with that might actually be able to do fairly well would be Dark Elves. Everyone else has already mentioned the potential of all the elves to do it. I wanted to use them because I wanted to fill my core up with dark riders with crossbows... Like I said I havn't played fantasy yet but seems like fast calvary with bows would be fun to use...and obviously would be less models in the core section. Though I've heard calvary in general has been kind of nerfed in 8th but I'm not too sure.

I've really noticed, in general, that most armies have the option of doing some type of cavalry unit as the core option. This might not be the best choice in the game but it definitely makes it possible to drop your model count by a bunch if you are taking 5-10 mounted models as core instead of 20+ on foot.

Well...there's my inexperienced take on the matter, but I'm in the same boat as you so I thought I'd mention my findings so far. I think ultimately I'm going to choose Lizardmen myself. Mostly to try and get as much stegadons as I can! Good Luck with your choice!


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Warriors of Chaos can do Ogres better than Ogres can do Ogres, in a way.
> 
> Take Throgg, and Trolls, and you've got an army with 4+ Regen and basic S5. However, they ARE Initiative 1, though, so suffer from Sun-itis, Pit-itis, Dweller-itis, etc even more than Ogres.
> 
> ...



Purple sun and pit of shades will hurt them, however dwellers below won't, as it's a strength test and trolls are strength 5...

For shits and giggles just pack a doom totem, anyone with a lord level mage will run screaming like a girl


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I would agree that WoC troll army is better then an ogre army. Trolls have their regen, chaos ogres swap bull charge (an impact hit) for being able to take chaos armour (I cant say how much I hate that they get a 4+ armour save), they get access to some great spells both through the WoC spells and access to some of the new rulebook lores and then you can be backed up by a hellcannon (which really puts scraplaunchers to shame).

Ogres are a fun army, which is potentially lethal... but easily beatable by the right player/army. WoC can make a very nasty "ogre" style army which has some of the same flaws (low 'I' means pit of shades and purple sun still end your army in 1-2 castings) but


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

bretonnians are also an option here if you are willing to spend time learninghow to use them correctly in the end go with what you like the most


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Correct use of Brets will still see you lose quite a bit and it's not low model count. You gotta get those blocks of MoA in there. 

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I've seen several knight heavy (or sole) lists out in 8th... but they all have the same issue: they lack numbers of attacks. This means they are very easy to tarpit. The very worst case of this was when 2 units of knights (I dont know the differences, Ive never actually played them- my local players always use their 'strong' armies to play me) were attacking a zombie hoard... and a single Lv3 vampire could raise more zombies then were lost each turn. I saw about 4 turns of the game and it was dull as anything. The zombies were blocking the rest of the VC army from getting in and all the VC magic went into raising. VC were winning slowly because one unit of the knights was right next to a haunted mansion.
- so to my point: brets can be good, but tend to like small, elite units over the hoard of poor quality stuff that more and more people are taking. So the evolution of the meta with 8th is working to the weaknesses of brets.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Yup it's the Inability to break things on the charge which kills them along with the poor initiative. Consider Knights of the Realm they're your basic heavy knight, a unit of 12 will set you back just over 320 points. On the Charge in Lance formation that's 11 S5 attacks at W4 and 9 S3 WS3 attacks, sadly at I3 so striking after or at the same time as most things. But that's not a bad attack. Assuming you actually hang in combat and you make your Combat reform to 6 Wide. Then you can have a might 18 attacks at S3 (WS4/3). Yes you have 2+ armour but T3 means you will have a lot of wounds to save. 

The block of 50 MaA is a good 70 pts cheap and would massacre the knights in combat, not only are they S4 all the time but they have plenty of ranks to play with. On the Charge Knights will kill 7 of them, in return, assuming not in a horde, the MaA will kill one Knight. After that the Lance formation will wear off and they have to reform, meaning they get shafted by static combat resolution. Assuming all 12 Knight survive they can kill 3 Peasants a turn to their 1 Knight, then static res kicks in and the knights lose by 1 or 2. 

The Elite Knight army is just too expensive now. You don;t get the same bang for your buck out of your Knight as they will get bogged down in anything bigger than a trivial unit.

Aramoro


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

I am going to play Ogres.......I simply love the huge figures now I might make a Chaos army comprised of Ogres and Trolls "I don't know what that list looks like yet",and a Ogre Kingdoms Ogre list and hope that when the new book comes out that it will include armour for Ogres or a thicker skin for saves or somthing like that.
But I am starting to buy Ogres and trolls which Chaos book has Ogres WOC or DOC?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I think that the new ogre book will be one of 2 things. 1- complete garbage, just more of the same, leaving them just as vulnerable to some spellswithout making them special (sad that a WoC 'ogre' army is currently better then an ogre 'ogre' army) or 2- utterly immense.

Im hoping for T5 ogres standard, but if they dont do that then a reduction in model cost or addition of armour (kinda doubt armour) would be almost certain. Certain models are massively overcosted currently, none more so then maneaters (almost double the points of an irongut to give it the same equipment and you get stubborn and +1WS, +1S, +1I +1A but have to live with ItP (which is a big downside in a small flanking unit). The worst thing is that they are no harder to kill... so all their upgrades tend to go for nothing as most cometent opponents will just get their archers/mages to obliterate them long before they become dangerous (30pts per wound with only T4 5+AS... if anyone can think of a quicker way to lose points against S3 shooting I would love to hear it).

I think that ogre magic may well be astonishing. They've always been different but while I think gutmagic might be quite fun I think its dispelling that ogres really need a change with, and lets face it, their fluff gives them an incredible source for if GW wanted to play around with magic. Could have them like the opposite dwarves- having no dispel dice but a chance (depending on butcher/slaughtermaster numbers) or letting the magic be "eaten" by the essence of the great maw. Somethying like roll a dice per magic user per spell: on a 6 for butchers or 5+ for slaughtermasters the spell is gone (but roll a 1 and something bad happens as the maw consumes part of the butcher/slaughtermaster).
So long as its cool and in-keeping with ogre fluff then my love of ogres will be maintained (currently its waivering slightly after some run ins with 8th ed HE).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'd like to see an Ogre Bloodgreed style regeneration. If they win a combat and restrain pursuit, they regain all wounds lost while actually in that combat (revived by the smell of fresh meat), up to a total number of wounds they cause.

I.e, they charge, and suffer 7 wounds, killing 2 ogres, and wounding another. In return, 5 opponents are killed, but due to some random Vagaries, etc, the opponents lose - and flee. Restraining pursuit, you restore 5 wounds - 1 on the wounded ogre, 1 fully reborn ogre, and 1 reborn ogre with 1 wound.

Bit wordy, but could make them a bit nastier. But yes, cost reduction would be very nice.

For example, to benefit from Horde, Ogres have to have 18 models - 3 ranks of 6, which is nearly 650points, I think. 650points of anything else will pretty much walk through Ogres in some way or manner - I'm thinking Crypt Ghouls, Warriors of Chaos and Lizards here, but the same thing applies to the lesser combat races - DElves, etc.


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeah I will be on the recieving end of Skaven and either Dwarfs or Brettonia with my Ogres "CHAAARGE" Get close as fast as I can basicaly.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Ogre Kingdoms are now a fairly viable army, with the 8th edition rules. They're still mid-tier, but a lot better than they used to be. One thing to look out for are opponents who use the lores of Death or Shadow, as each has a killer spell that forces initiative tests, something that Ogres have a lot of trouble making. 

The problem with a high elves army is that you'll always do better with a large block or two of spearmen or sea guard. I'm not sure what you believe about Vampire Counts, but trust me, they are NOT a low model count army. 25% of your army has to be in core, and aside from corpse carts (which only really work well in horde armies) all the choices that count toward the minimum are large blocks of undead. You'll always have about 50-60 disposable undead in your force.

Warriors of Chaos are probably the most competitive choice, if you primarily run Chaos Warriors. Brettonian cavalry armies can also have a low model count, but aren't as competitive.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

While ogres have moved from bottom to mid tiers I recon its now harder to do really well with them. They used to be really tricky to use but use them right and you stood a decent chance against anyway (except a tounry daemon army) but in the new rules they are much easier to use, but can easily come up against armies that no matter how you use them, unless you have exactly the right build then they'll just get mushed.
Personally I find that less fun, although the bigger units that we can use and actually getting SCR is a nice change.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

high elves darkelves lizardmen and warriors of chaos meet your description


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> While ogres have moved from bottom to mid tiers I recon its now harder to do really well with them. They used to be really tricky to use but use them right and you stood a decent chance against anyway (except a tounry daemon army) but in the new rules they are much easier to use, but can easily come up against armies that no matter how you use them, unless you have exactly the right build then they'll just get mushed.


What armies do you get mushed against no matter how you use them? I haven't had trouble with any particular army. It's just one or two spells that work a little too well against Ogres that I have trouble with.

As for their competitiveness these days, I played a lot of Ogres in 7th and I've now been playing them in 8th, and I do see what you mean. The reason that Ogres used to be able to 'possibly' beat anyone in 7th edition is because of Tyrants and Gorgers, which allowed them to easily defeat things that most armies had a lot of trouble with. Gorgers allowed you to strike anywhere around the table edge, allowing them to easily kill war machines or sneak attack infantry and deny them their rank bonus. A fully decked out Tyrant had the advantage of being able to kill anything, no matter how tough it was, and still stay in the fight.

Now, both of these advantages have been downgraded a bit, because gorgers can no longer deny rank bonuses, and Tyrants can get stuck in stubborn infantry blocks, limiting their effectiveness. In both cases, Ogres got weaker at defeating blocks of infantry, which used to be one of their greatest strengths.

However, Ogres got a lot better overall in close combat, now being able to beat anything (they used to have a lot of trouble against heavy cavalry and other super units), and they're now not as vulnerable to magic, since it's a lot easier to field a slaughtermaster. 

So in short, they lost some of their specific advantages, but got better overall. In a way, in 7th edition they used to be like a student that got A's in a few of his classes, but D's and F's in all the rest. Now in 8th they're more like a student that gets around a B- or C+ in almost everything. Personally, I prefer it.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I believe the armies he's referring to are those willing to throw all their dice at Pit of Shades or Purple Sun of Xereus and kill a buttload of ogres in one cast.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

So far the only army my ogres come accross that tactics are useless is HE. They can put out a block thats immune to magic, going to out cast them, certainly going to outshoot them and then you charge in and take ~15 wounds even before buffs/SC add their benefits/kills. So if you are looking at ~20 wounds, 3 ranks, banner and BSB the ogres will need a huge number of attacks to equal the fight (and since the HE will have more ranks if they win the ogres break, if the ogres win nothing happens).

Ogres are a combat army. They have forgettable offensive magic (especially for a Ld 9-10 unit of ~50 with Ld rerolls) and naff shooting... and you have a combat army that simply cannot use combat to beat a magic heavy army. I know that I can beat these HE players if I spam gnoblar scraplaunchers, but I dont want to force my army into that mold and tailoring for 1 specific army. Its the equivalent of skaven or O&G finding that having hoardes just doesnt work and being forced to do an 'elite' army to win... they might be able to do it, but its just plain wrong.

EDIT- also, the cheapest way to get 3 scraplaunchers costs 833pts and requires 8 units...


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

I am going for a 2500-3500 point Ogre list I can't wait to finish my army I will be putting it on the Project log.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> So far the only army my ogres come accross that tactics are useless is HE. They can put out a block thats immune to magic, going to out cast them, certainly going to outshoot them and then you charge in and take ~15 wounds even before buffs/SC add their benefits/kills. So if you are looking at ~20 wounds, 3 ranks, banner and BSB the ogres will need a huge number of attacks to equal the fight (and since the HE will have more ranks if they win the ogres break, if the ogres win nothing happens).
> 
> Ogres are a combat army. They have forgettable offensive magic (especially for a Ld 9-10 unit of ~50 with Ld rerolls) and naff shooting... and you have a combat army that simply cannot use combat to beat a magic heavy army. I know that I can beat these HE players if I spam gnoblar scraplaunchers, but I dont want to force my army into that mold and tailoring for 1 specific army. Its the equivalent of skaven or O&G finding that having hoardes just doesnt work and being forced to do an 'elite' army to win... they might be able to do it, but its just plain wrong.
> 
> EDIT- also, the cheapest way to get 3 scraplaunchers costs 833pts and requires 8 units...



Huh? 3 Scraplaunchers are 495 points, and are just 3 units. I'm not sure what you mean with 833 points and 8 units. That doesn't make any sense to me. 

I find that 2 are enough, for 330 points, and really help Ogre lists a lot. 

Your math assumes a block of 53+ spearmen, which is going to cost close to 500 points, and be at least a quarter of your opponent's army in most games. If you just distract that unit, and go after everything else first, you might not have to worry about it.

I say 53 because your initial charge will kill 3-4 from impact hits, with no armor saves, reducing the number of your opponent's attacks before he strikes. I normally like blocks of 12 ogres (or 10-11 plus 1-2 characters), so 15 wounds will kill 5, if you have no buffs, but Ogres really need buffs in order to shine. I'd cast either the +1 toughness and stubborn spell, or regen + magic resistance spell, even if you have to throw all your dice at it. With either spell, you'll cut the wounds you suffer from 15 to 7-8, which is a big difference. Also, this assumes bulls. With ironguts, they take 10 wounds if not buffed, and only 5 if they are. If you put both buffs on the unit, then they'll probably lose only a single Ogre.

Even in the worst case scenario, you'll still have 7 ogres left, which will all get to attack (always use a 4 wide front). If they're bulls then you'll get 21-22 attacks, 10-11 hits, 7-8 wounds, and 6-7 kills. If they're ironguts you'll get 21-22 attacks, 10-11 hits, and 8-9 kills. You'll get more if you have characters. Finally, you get 4 stomp attacks that will get about 2 more kills.

All said and done, depending on how many casualties you take, you'll get 11-15 kills with bulls and 13-17 kills with ironguts. At worst you'll take 15 wounds, but if you're buffed you'll only take 4-8, and ironguts will probably only take 2-5. 

That's certainly not bad by any means, and really the best any unit can do against a horde of enemy troops. In 8th edition, you can't just assume that your unit will hammer through a horde with no casualties. You need to buff your guys, soften the enemy up first, and ideally, flank them from the side as well.


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## Babypowder (Nov 10, 2009)

mynameisgrax said:


> Huh? 3 Scraplaunchers are 495 points, and are just 3 units. I'm not sure what you mean with 833 points and 8 units. That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> I find that 2 are enough, for 330 points, and really help Ogre lists a lot.


In order to take scraplaunchers you have to take gnoblars. But unless you have to take both trappers and fighters for each scraplauncher I always just thought you could take one or the other to take them which would put the cost more like 615 in 6 units.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

mynameisgrax said:


> Huh? 3 Scraplaunchers are 495 points, and are just 3 units. I'm not sure what you mean with 833 points and 8 units. That doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> I find that 2 are enough, for 330 points, and really help Ogre lists a lot.
> 
> ...


I guess you didnt really understand what I was on about... and while some of what you say is true there are also some pretty big assumptions/errors in there.
The cheapest way of getting 3 scraplaunchers into an ogre army is to have 2 units of 3 bulls, 2 units of 20 gnoblars, a unit of 8 gnoblar trappers and then the 3 scraplaunchers... which costs 833pts. You cannot simply choose to have a scraplaucher (each one needs a unit of gnoblars to be played, and gnoblars come with strings of their own).

Impact hits are great... but they have 2 drawbacks. First is that most competent opponents wont let you have any impact hits unless you get a huge charge off (you must charge 6" to get impacts... so if they simply march closer then that you get none) and the second is that if you get impact hits the enemy can stand and shoot.... which can really hurt.

Buffs, flanking the enemy and getting those impact hits are what I would group as tactics... and why Im annoyed is that I think some match ups dont rely on tactics to find the winner (its almost certain, with luck able to reverse the occasional game...and I dont want to have to rely on luck).


To highlight this I give this example: a unit of 12 bulls with banner and musician fighting 50 HE spearmen with the banner of eternal flame and full command (450 vs 485pts). We'll start the ogres 7" away in the flank of the HE buffed by toothcracker (trollguts doesnt help since the HE are flaming) and we'll give the ogres the turn... I cannot think of a better situation for the ogres: other then army compostion/characters they have everything they could want. Since the points are off, we could even make it 13 ogres so its fair points.

Ogres charge (we'll force the HE to stand), kill ~13 HE and lose about 0.5 wounds. First turn combat res ends 18:4-5... HE are steadfast at Ld 8 (they would almost always be Ld9-10 and have the BSB), giving a 28% chance of them running (about 15% chance of destoying them), shrinking to a 0.7% chance if they had Ld10 and a BSB close by. The HE are pretty likely to reform to face the ogres.
Second turn the HE player dispells the tooth cracker buff (there is nothing the ogre player can do to stop this, and almost no chance of a HE player failing to do so). No impact hits from the ogres so the HE hit first, cause 11 wounds (with a total of 12 by the time you add on the first rounds damage- so 4 dead ogres) and the ogres reply with 10 wounds from attacks and stomps. Combat res finishes 12:16 so the bulls are down to a Ld3 test (% pass) up to a Ld5 test with reroll if a tyrant and BSB are close (48% fail)... 
... so unless something very unexpected happens, an equal points unit of bulls with every benefit I can think to give them will get mushed by HE spearmen, and this is fighting on OGRE strengths- change that enemy unit to LSG and they are doing about 6W a turn with shooting (8 in close range) and 3 more on a stand and shoot and that ogre units would be be lucky to even reach combat, let alone do it with enough bodies to be half decent.

Add in magic and its just game over for the ogres. Gut magic is nice, but simply doesnt compare with the newer lores from the rulebook (and HE are much better at magic then ogres are anyway).
Now if I took 2-3 scraplaunchers I might beat that sort of spearmen/LSG hoard... but I kinda doubt it. I'll have weakened my army by a massive amount on their requirements and I'm relying on luck for the scraplaunchers to criple the HE before RBTs and magic kill them (and for me having enough combat units, that havent been crippled by RBT/bows/magic to be able to take advantage of this).

Basically put ogres need a new army book... and they are getting one. So we'll see what happens come early next year when we get it (hopefully). Until then I can at least be happy in the knowledge that ogres vs HE in 8th isn't as bad as ogres vs daemons was in 7th (ok, its potentially worse with pit of shades and purple sun, but at least you can win with luck).


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Oh, I see what you mean about 8 units. Sorry bout that. I always use at least one unit of gnoblars and another unit of gnoblar trappers, so it's never a problem for me. Honestly, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't use them. They're dirt cheap and very useful.

Also, you have a point about the second round of combat, but my point was that the Ogres aren't helpless against these types of units. They just need some help to push the battle in their favor, such as scraplaunchers or leadbelchers shooting the elves' numbers down, or ironguts or a tyrant to help push the combat in your favor. 

As I said, in 8th edition no 'super unit' can defeat a unit of 50-60 spearmen completely on their own. They need help. 

Personally, the way I got around their leadership problem was I gave the character attached to the unit a crown of command, making them stubborn. Combined with a Tyrant or Bruiser, it'll make the unit very likely to stick with the combat, especially if there's a BSB nearby.

Finally, it may come down to playstyle, but I've never seen a High Elf player use the flaming attack standard. They always put their 'extra power dice' standard in their biggest block of troops, to protect it.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

You cant put the banner of sorcery into spearmen/LSG.. it can only go in white lions, phoenix guard or swordmasters (or cav), so banner of eternal flame or a warbanner is about the best choices for the standard super-block.

Crown of command is great, but you can only take it once. So far Ive needed it once, and it was in my other unit... its a 50-50 and I had the wrong half (but then if I have a hammer blow unit of death and a smaller 'scalple' I dont expect the hammerblow to need stubborn.
My biggest issue is that ogres need to beat HE in 1 turn fights.. or the magical backlash can cripple them: I've gone into a fight with a buff, and by the second round I lost my buff and had been hexed to hell and back: my bulls were M3 WS1 S3 T3 I1 and were all but massacred.

I know that all ogre players basically must take scraplaunchers against the new model HE army, Im just annoyed that it means I'm forced down a single style for a large part of my army and means I have to deal with one of the best looking models which simply hates being in 1 piece and breaks if you mention the word travel in the next room. I really am tempted to carefully remove the rhinox from my scraplauncher and then throw the model at a wall... then just model a catapult on the back.


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