# Planning on starting WoC



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Hello there! 

With my 40K Chaos Marines reaching their planned size by the end of January, I was thinking about what to collect next later on. I was thinking about getting Skaven, since I love their fluff and they are lots of fun, but then I thought of how many models I'd have to paint... and that really made me stop. I don't like the concept of having to paint scores of rats. Not to mention that I don't really like horde armies from a gameplay perspective (I love the looks though).

I'm thinking about Warriors of Chaos right now. I love their fluff (surprise, surprise!) and those armours are awesome incarnate. But I really should start getting to the point by now, eh? So here are a couple things I want to know before I start collecting these guys.

1, I'm an aggressive player, I like to come up close and personal, though I do appriciate the barking of guns behind me, just don't expect me to enjoy gunlines. On the other hand, I really love Tzeentch and magic. So the question is, is it possible to build a Tzeentchian army thats balanced between close combat asskickery and magics without sacrificing mobility? Can I rush ahead with my Sorcerers and Warriors, cast spells and kick ass? 

2, I really don't like the looks of Marauders, and human flesh in general. I love the Warhounds though, dogs and wolves are a soft spot of mine.  Is it possible to be an efficient WoC player without ever using Marauders of any kind?

3, I have a crush on huge men in even bigger armour, so is it possible to be a decent WoC player if I keep using Chosen, Warriors, Knights, Chariots, and Warhounds as the main asskickery of my army? Excluding lords and heroes and you occasional Chaotic awesomeness such as Shaggoths and Hellcannons (I think you can't be a decent Fantasy Chaos player without Hellcannons).

4, I'm unable to decide what theme should I go for. Tzeentch is an obvious first idea for me (me being a fanatic of that bird), but it depends on the answer to Q1 if I'm going to roll with that or not. My other two options are Khorne and Slaanesh. I like Khorne for his awesome oneliner for everything bad in the world ("BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!"), but I'm a pervert too so Slaanesh is competing too. :grin: Which one would you recommend, keeping in mind your own personal answer for the previous questions? As I've said, I'm an aggressive player, I enjoy rolling over my opponent like a steam train, so speed, mobility and close combat asskickery are my primary concern. 


Thank you for your time and patience.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There are several views to WoC - those who love Marauders, and those who hate them. The majority hate them, due to the amount of flesh. However, I myself love them, and never play a game, unless I do Monster Armies.

I would certainly say if you're limiting yourself from Marauders, then Warhounds are pretty much required, especially for a beginner.

Tzeentch ties for being the strongest with Nurgle, but Nurgle is less troubled by anti-magic, so it's usually the better, and it's Magic is far more supportive, rather than outright devastating, so it's less reliant for victory.

As for spells, you have 2 Spells which require you or your target to not be in combat, and one which cannot target engaged units. The other spells are a bit crap, with the exclusion of Infernal Gateway - the others aren't too useful - Call to Glory gives you a free Exalted Champion - but only while it RiP - which is easy enough to break, dispel, or even kill - it's still only T4 with 2 Wounds, and gives a free 100VP's to an enemy. Pandaemonium is only useful against Wizards and Skaven, really. It can be useful against others, but not to the same scale. Transmogrifaction just can't put out the damage. 

Myself, I find it's best to max out on them, and hope to get a "Coven" - basically 4 Wizards capable of putting out 4+ Ranged Magic Attacks with a 2+ to cast, near immunity to bad miscasts, and tasty enough in combat, plus they're also capable of jumping all over the battlefield.

With the removal of the old MoT (Loved that), you can no longer have bitch ass Warrior Mages, Nurgle does that the best though, these days, funnily enough.

Hellcannons are really quite shit. Any competitive player will deny their existence, actually, unless you play a scripted mission, as they're not even that fun to play, turning it into a game of luck - oh did it hit? Yes, it's dead. No, it missed, it's a alive. And usually it misses, so it can't be called broken, but there's no fun in wiping out 300points of units from a game in a single war machine shot if it does work. That's not a game you should really be playing.

haha you're also Typical Newbie - Bigger isn't better  More Warriors, Knights, or Dragon Ogres will work better than Dual Shaggoths, although I have success with them in a Monster Army, lead by a Nurgle Lord on Dragon/Galrauch and the Troll King.

If you like Tzeentch, WoC is forgiving enough with ANY force that you can choose any that you like. You like Tzeentch, I'm going to say nothing to change your mind, other than that Nurgle is the best army for the playing style you want.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

So you're saying that 
A, Tzeentch doesn't mind mobility
B, Using no Marauders at all is okay
C, Tzeentch is a good theme to go with,
yes? Thats great! =D

I just happen to like how Shaggoths look like, but not even as nearly as much as Knights.

Chaos Kniiiiiiiiiights... *droools*

Thanks a bunch, Vaz. 

P.S.: Would fantasy chaos boys look good with Thousand Sons colour scheme (Regal Blue+Shining Gold)?


----------



## Freedirtyneedles (Oct 22, 2009)

I tried REAL hard to like my marauders(all 40 of em) but they have yet to actually win a combat. Also I have'nt been impressed with magic yet but I roll poorly every time. 
the cool thing about woc is, you don't have to go all for one god. (I did cause I like painting slime and rust heeheehee) There is nothing out there to keep you from fielding mot wizards and mok knights or whatever. may get some evil glares.


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

The problem for marauders is most chaos players cant help but compare them to chaos warriors. Well they are economy sacrificeable troops, whereas chaos warriors are one of the best units in the game.

About the Tzeentch army plan, it will work and work well, but expect your army to be tiny, i mean tiny. Sorcerors are expensive points wise and you will want 3 if you expect to get far with magic dominance. On top of this the warriors and knights are very very expensive points wise too. You will not likely fit things like chosen and hell cannon along with this.
On the plus side you really will have very little painting to do so you can focus on the quality, nothing like a horde at all.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Ancient Tiel' a fier said:


> About the Tzeentch army plan, it will work and work well, but expect your army to be tiny, i mean tiny. Sorcerors are expensive points wise and you will want 3 if you expect to get far with magic dominance. On top of this the warriors and knights are very very expensive points wise too. You will not likely fit things like chosen and hell cannon along with this.
> On the plus side you really will have very little painting to do so you can focus on the quality, nothing like a horde at all.


How tiny? I thought I'd have a Sorcerer Lord, 2x10 Warriors, 2x5 Warhounds and 1x5 Knights in say 500-750 points. Mind you, I still have to study the army book, so I might be wrong with the details, but the main idea got through I hope.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, you cannot take a Lord in under 2000points.

5 Knights is 200, 5 Knights of Tzeentch with Full Command and a Banner of Wrath (1+/6++ (increased to 4++ against Ranged and Magic Ranged) is 290.

Warriors require a Weapon and Shield to be tournament quality - generally GW or Halberd - MoT Warriors with Full Command, Weapon+Shield = 200, and you usually take a Magic Standard as well, and a further two more Warriors, to maximise Frontage - which bumps it up to around 260pts, or 520pts.

Those two there are higher than what your limit was.

A Maxed Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch is 290pts with no additional upgrades, and to be effective, it requires maxed Magic Items, a some Gift of the Gods, and usually a steed, which bumps it up to around 450pts.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Yeah, I just read the army book and... well, lets just say I'm used to 40K point costs. :laugh:

What do you suggest for a 1000 point list to start getting to know the rules with? Once I get the hang of it I should be able to build a decent list of my own.


----------



## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

If you prefer an aggressive style of play, I think you're gonna want to get some mounted Marauders. Fast cav's ability to slow the opponent's ability to react to your moves xomes in real handy. If you don't like the looks of the stock models, why not use
Empire pistoliers as your base model? Marauder Horsemen have the option of light armour,
and that's what the pistoliers have.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

My trouble with fast cav is that they're too fragile and since they can't shoot, they have to get into melee, but since they're light cavalry, they're going to die first. I think I'll just spam Warhounds instead, they're a cheap meatshield and if they do manage to kill something else then all the better. 

Of course this is all theory, I have nothing to back up my claims with except for a bit of common sense. :grin:


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Fast Cavalry can shoot. Plus, Marauder Cavalry hit as hard on the charge as many Heavy Cavalry with flails, along with the potential to be Frenzied (in which case, they hit as hard as none Nurgle or Khornate Chaos Knights). 

Khorothis, just a note - there's no point asking people for advice, and then when it's given it's thrown back our faces, especially when you have no idea of how the game is to be played. 

I'll try and get some Sample 1K Forces up for you. Expect like 6 model armies, though.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I meant that Marauders can't shoot. They have melee weapons only.

You have a point there, mate. Sorry for arguing without any experience or knowledge. 

Well, they do have some armour on them, so I think I'll be able to handle these guys. But simple Marauders are still a no-no.

And thanks for baring with me.


----------



## Boomstikk (Sep 7, 2009)

I´ve just started a WoC army myself actually. Didn´t want the Marauder models either, but they´ve started to grow on me. Don´t get me wrong though, my main core choices will be WoC, Marauder horsemen and the hounds with Knights and maybe eventually Chosen to add some more punch.

There are so many cool models in the WoC range! I´m looking to expand (I´ve recently ordered the WoC battalion box which will give me even more WoC and Knights) on the special and rare selections, looking at the Shaggoth´s and Giants. Also got a Hellcannon dirt cheap that I´ve built.

Good luck to you!


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I've yet to be tempted to get those guys. 

My list looks like this so far, is this a good idea? I'm torn between a footslogging and a mounted army. 

Sorcerer lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Blasphemous Amulet, Barded Steed - 206

Sorcerer lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Barded Steed - 206

5x Murader Horseman, Flail, MOS, Light Armour, Javellin, Musician - 101

5x Murader Horseman, Flail, MOS, Light Armour, Throwing axe, Musician - 106

5x Knigts of Chaos, Champion, Standard, Musician, Blasted Standard - 290

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30

Total:999

OR

Sorcerer; lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Blasphemous Amulet - 190

Sorcerer; lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Third Eye of Tzeentch - 190

15xWarriors; Shield, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 280

15xWarriors; Shield, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 280

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30

Total:1000


----------



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The second list is probably better for learning the game with. It's a bit more balanced, as it's got some fast units (the warhounds) and a solid core of infantry. If nothing else, it's a good starting point for the 2000+ point army. 

I'd consider switching the Mark of Tzeentch on the casters for the Mark of Slaanesh-- partially for the sake of theme, and partially because the Lore of Slaanesh is more useful overall to the army. The Lore of Tzeentch is ultimately a better Lore of Fire-- the Lores of Slaanesh and Nurgle both have decent offensive spells, but the utility and buff spells are indispensable. At low points games, the Lore of Slaanesh is downright devastating, to boot-- the ability to make your opponent's units Stupid is a lot better than it sounds. There's not likely to be high leadership in an army of 1000 points, so if you can make the majority of your opponent's units Stupid, you'll be able to set your maneuvers up more carefully. 

You'll want to give halberds to your Warriors, as well. Unless they have the Mark of Khorne (in which case a shield is sufficient, and quite good, in my experience, as the unit fights like any other unit with dual hand weapons in practice, but with the benefit of a shield), halberds and shields are almost must-haves. There's not a lot in the game that can stand up to 11 S5 attacks at WS5. While initiative isn't nearly as important in Fantasy as it is in 40k, there are enough armies that are commonly played in which you fight protracted combats, and that's where the halberds end up being better than great weapons, which make you strike last. The difference between S5 and S6 rarely matters that much, but striking first instead of last makes a huge difference. Warriors DO go first, by the way, when things come down to initiative-- there aren't a lot of things with Initiative 5 that don't have pointy ears out there, and you won't be fighting protracted combats with elves of any flavor anyway, so it's not really an issue. 

As for the whole "Marauder horsemen can't shoot" debate, that's absolutely wrong. Marauder Horsemen have the option for throwing axes and throwing spears. They're able to maneuver behind an enemy unit and spend the game tossing axes at them with impunity, if you're so inclined. They're also maneuverable enough to intercept enemy fast cavalry, which is very common; and they're able to step into flanks to support your Warriors. And while Warhounds do it cheaper, they also work as a speed bump for death star units, and often, one turn is enough of a delay for those units to get your army into a better position to either avoid their charge or at least better deal with them.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

As Horus says, it's the second list you'll be wanting.

Sorcerer lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Blasphemous Amulet, Barded Steed - 206
You'll find that a Sorcer with the Golden Eye, Sword of Might and Disc is one of the better builds you could have. Alternatively, swap the SoM for a Warrior Familiar and Favour of the Gods



> Sorcerer lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Barded Steed - 206


Third Eye of Tzeentch isn't that good. Power Familiar or Skull of Katam goes better.

5x Murader Horseman, Flail, MOS, Light Armour, Javellin, Musician - 101

5x Murader Horseman, Flail, MOS, Light Armour, Throwing axe, Musician - 106
No point in ever taking Throwing weapons or Light Armour if you're not taking flails first. And once you've got flails, there's no point in taking either.

5x Knigts of Chaos, Champion, Standard, Musician, Blasted Standard - 290
MoT or Nurgle (Preferably). 

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30
Good

All in all, a poor list to learn with. Chaos can't pull off Cavalry lists without requiring good experience. If you want to learn Cavalry lists, go to Bretonnia or Empire (Empire Preferably). 

Sorcerer; lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Blasphemous Amulet - 190

Sorcerer; lvl2, MOT, Dispel Scroll, Third Eye of Tzeentch - 190
See above.

15xWarriors; Shield, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 280

15xWarriors; Shield, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 280
I wish people would read other peoples threads for ideas if they're just starting out. I'm getting tired of writing on every single list I see GIVE IT A WEAPON UPGRADE AND A SHIELD. You've got half right, so that's okay. List is generally okay, but drop the Champion for Mark of Nurgle. Also, drop the unit to 12 in size.

Use some points left over to take a nice a cheap Marauder Screen.

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30
Good.

Second one is infinately better.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

First of all, thanks for all the help guys. I really appriciate, especially given my thick skull. 

Looks like I'll go for the footslogging list. And you can actually have Halberds with Shields? Awesome. And by getting MoS instead for the Sorcerers I can pay for said Halberds. By the way, you have to buy Halberds and Great Weapons separately for the Warriors, yes? I've heard something like that I think.

So how about this then?

Sorcerer; MoS, Dispell Scroll, ??? - 190 (25 available) *or 10 if I take Great Weapons*

Sorcerer; MoS, Dispell Scroll, ??? - 190 (25 available) *or 10 if I take Great Weapons*

15xWarriors; Shield, Halberd, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 295

15xWarriors; Shield, Halberd, Musician, Standard, Champion, MoS - 295

5x Warhound - 30

5x Warhound - 30

Total: 1000

I'm a little puzzled about the magic items I should take. Theres so many and my lack of experience and knowledge isn't helping either. 

I just found a few tacticas and guides, I'll start reading them right now.  Sorry for not thinking of that earlier.

EDIT: I've read MaidenManiac's article on Warrior weapons, and he seems to make a good point when he says that Great Weapons are the best idea, better than Halberds, considering that Warriors rely on ACR and not SCR. I'm not pretending to know anything, I'm just summing up what he said.  :grin:


----------



## CoNnZ (Mar 28, 2009)

A really deadly combo for chaos magic items is the infernal puppet and dark tongue. Force your opponent to miscast and then alter the result and maybe kill him


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Looks tasty, but The Black Tongue is one use only, and 50 points for that... but I don't have a licence to argue yet. :grin:

How about two Power Familiars for the 25 point version? Or for the 10 point setup, a Spell Familiar for one and a Biting Blade for the other?


----------



## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

Khorothis you have every right to rebuttle any advice given here you are a gamer and have a mind to think, just because you disagree with some ones opinion dosent mean you have to cower to the more experianced players, tis not the chaos way!!! korn will not bless you if you do. find what you like to do and run with it. if your a mad colector like me you will eventualy have every model in the army to feild any way, just keep in mind if you do the CK and CW army its going to be small and beware the shootie armys, get your guys in the fight fast as posable, other than that play them and enjoythe game.k:


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

stevenhassell said:


> Khorothis you have every right to rebuttle any advice given here you are a gamer and have a mind to think, just because you disagree with some ones opinion dosent mean you have to cower to the more experianced players, tis not the chaos way!!! korn will not bless you if you do. find what you like to do and run with it. if your a mad colector like me you will eventualy have every model in the army to feild any way, just keep in mind if you do the CK and CW army its going to be small and beware the shootie armys, get your guys in the fight fast as posable, other than that play them and enjoythe game.k:


I appriciate your attitude, but I've learnt that as long as you're a rookie you should keep quiet and listen to those who know more than you do. But the moment I get the hang of it you'll see me spamming WHFB forums like theres no tomorrow. :grin:

By the way, is it a good idea if I roll Slaaneshi Warriors and Chosen and Lords with Tzeentchian Knights and Sorcerers and Daemon Princes? I'm asking because I'm trying to be as fluffy as possible and these are the two Chaos Gods I like the most. I've always thought of having these two Gods' forces in one army.


----------



## Fallen Angel Sammael (Jun 18, 2009)

Freedirtyneedles said:


> I tried REAL hard to like my marauders(all 40 of em) *but they have yet to actually win a combat*. Also I have'nt been impressed with magic yet but I roll poorly every time.
> the cool thing about woc is, you don't have to go all for one god. (I did cause I like painting slime and rust heeheehee) There is nothing out there to keep you from fielding mot wizards and mok knights or whatever. may get some evil glares.


Are marauders that bad? The staff at GW were saying they are solid in combat and trying to make me buy a box.......Even though I do not want Marauders in my army.


----------



## Fen-Dweller (Sep 25, 2009)

If you like Tzeeentch, then there's one invaluable unit (IMO) which always earns me back it's points. 

Exalted Hero of Tzeentch-176 or 186(?)pts
-MoT
-Disc
-Shield
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch/Armor of Morrisleb
-Halberd

Cheap; takes out WMs, skirmishers, casters, Hydras, etc; awesome flanker.

And if you like discs, feel assured that putting a sorcerer or two on them is also worth it, in general (equip one with the item you didn't use on the EHero, and the other with an enchanted shield+talisman of protection so they survive).

I hope that's helpful, and good luck!


----------



## Warlord Imp (Mar 20, 2009)

I recently started my WoC Army and had the same views regarding the marauders. They do seem 'squishy' but when I read the rules for Seafang and Wulfrik, I just had to find a place for them in my army. At 185 points, he is pretty much the same a a semi-loaded Exalted Hero. WoC do their best when they are up close in combat. The Maruaders would sneak behind enemy lines and tear up the long range shooters/sorcerers. If they do not tear them up, at least they can disrupt them long enough for the real close combat units to get their charge in. I had initially planned to build a knight/chosen army but this had become less feasible when I started adding up the points. Now, I build arround Wulfrik and the Marauders with a Giant when ever I can get him in.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Fallen Angel Sammael said:


> Are marauders that bad? The staff at GW were saying they are solid in combat and trying to make me buy a box.......Even though I do not want Marauders in my army.


Games Workshop would try and sell a turd and say it's quality.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Well, Wulfrik DOES have a "Just As Planned" feel to him... and one squad of Marauders won't hurt much... You know, when I started CSM in 40K I said I won't use Oblits and all that moralising crap... now here I go using Marauders. :laugh: Reality vs. Morals: 2-0 

By the way, is it a good idea to have lots of Sorcerers casting a lot of spells? My LGS and other clever guys are on the opinion that while magic is certainly useful I shouldn't rely on it and use it as plan "B" alone.


----------

