# but how much more powerful were primarchs to a SM



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

as we all know, the 18 Primarchs, individually were more powerful then a space marine

but by how much

is it 1 primarch can take on 3 space marines by himself

is it a 1/2 scale, 1/3.... how much more powerful where they


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

As much as a particular author deems is necessary. 

That's the best answer you're ever going to get.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Guilliman took on 10 fully armed space marines while he was both unarmed and unsuspecting of an attack. 

Curze took on 10 fully armed Space Wolves who were sent there specifically armed to fight a Primarch. 

Angron easily killed a high ranking Ultramarine captain, and by easily I mean like a full grown man fighting a two minute old infant. 

Lorgars fighting abilities are considered the worst of all Primarchs but he can still kill a good handful of marines on his own. 


I could continue but I think I have proven my point, Primarchs are much, much stronger than astartes. Not only physically but mentally.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Primarchs fighting Space Marines is like a river through sand. They just wash their way through the ranks, killing anyone that challenges them. These are the most elite specimens of the genetical engineering the Emporer conducted; they could probably take on 100+ SM per Primarch.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, to quote a Night Lords Commander on the subject of the Lion: "_I surrendered most of a company in forcing the Lord of the First Legion back_."

And that was just a delaying action. On Isstvan V, Corax practically facerolled his way through the Word Bearer's Gal Vorbak elite.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The difference between an astartes and primarch is much greater than the difference between an astartes and human.

We have accounts of a space marine being pulled down and slain by a dozen or so humans. And then we have accounts of primarchs easily cutting down between dozens and near a hundred enemy space marines. 

It's really beyond what we can describe for one individual.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Karthak said:


> Well, to quote a Night Lords Commander on the subject of the Lion: "_I surrendered most of a company in forcing the Lord of the First Legion back_."
> 
> And that was just a delaying action. On Isstvan V, Corax practically facerolled his way through the Word Bearer's Gal Vorbak elite.


i dont understand, who is the "lord of the first legion"? the lion?

so it took a whole company just to delay the lion advancements?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Lorgar by "betrayer" is likely one of the best primarchs when it comes to fighting ability, he was ripping thunderhawks out of the air with his hands (telekinesis). He was exploding as well as ripping astartes apart by merely waving his hand, he was doing so with his telekinesis and they were in full company's when he killed them simultaneously. He also demonstrated that his psychic powers provided him a constant shield that protected him bolter rounds, thunder hawk cannons, and a nova cannon from a titan.

Karn comments on how when in the presence of Lorgar he was able to see the psychic field of energy that radiated upon his being, and the thunderhawks cannons were like fire incinerating against him yet only irritating him.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Lux said:


> Lorgar by "betrayer" is likely one of the best primarchs when it comes to fighting ability, he was ripping thunderhawks out of the air with his hands (telekinesis). He was exploding as well as ripping astartes apart by merely waving his hand, he was doing so with his telekinesis and they were in full company's when he killed them simultaneously. He also demonstrated that his psychic powers provided him a constant shield that protected him bolter rounds, thunder hawk cannons, and a nova cannon from a titan.
> 
> Karn comments on how when in the presence of Lorgar he was able to see the psychic field of energy that radiated upon his being, and the thunderhawks cannons were like fire incinerating against him yet only irritating him.


i thought lorgar was one of the weakest of the primarchs in terms of fighting ability?

was he a powerful psyker? on magnus level?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i dont understand, who is the "lord of the first legion"? the lion?


Of the twenty legions, the Dark Angels were legion I (aka legion 1.) One of the honorifics they used for themselves, and what other legions used occasionally for them, was 'the first legion' since they were indeed the first of the legions.

So yes, one of the Lions many titles was lord of the first.



Emperorguard500 said:


> so it took a whole company just to delay the lion advancements?


That is literally exactly what Karthak posted. Its great to see you actually responding to these threads of yours, now if only you'd actually read all the responses..


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i dont understand


That much, is abundantly clear.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

To put a comparison on how powerful a primarch is. Take a Reaver Titan put him into a bigger than space marine body with best armor, weapons, training and (for some) psychic abilities.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i thought lorgar was one of the weakest of the primarchs in terms of fighting ability?
> 
> was he a powerful psyker? on magnus level?


I feel Lorgar would still get pasted in CC with another Primarch (depending on who it is).

As for at this point in the Heresy, it is debatable whether Lorgar's Psychic power is on par with Magnus's or not.


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## kharn130 (Dec 7, 2013)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i thought lorgar was one of the weakest of the primarchs in terms of fighting ability?
> 
> was he a powerful psyker? on magnus level?


this id just what I've heard, but apparently, he was one of the weakest's but then I think he went into the warp and did something, presumable make the ultimate bargain with the dark gods, not sure though, and when he came back he was epic, horus (I think) put his hand on lorgars shoulder and lorgar told him to get his hand off and he couldn't help it and was forced by lorgars telekinesis to take his hand off, he wasn't as powerfull as magnus, in the fact he could only use telekinesis, and magnus was still a better psyker, but logar was better at telekinesis after his warp journey. again don't hold me to all this, I was just told that was how he became so badass. seeing as in 'the first heretic' of the horus heresy he got wooped by cruze, and agron saved him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lorgar was never weak, and nor did he suddenly become one the strongest Primarchs post-Isstvan. _The First Heretic_, _Aurelian_ and _Betrayer_ make it abundantly clear that it was Lorgar's change of mentality, sense of purpose and acceptance of his psychic ability (where before he had suppressed it) that changed his character. 

On a similar note (and I've said it numerous times) but there was never a strict hierarchy in terms of the Primarchs' strength. For all intents and purposes they were all effectively on par which each other (save perhaps Horus).


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The greatness of Horus has never really been described though. We've just been told that he is the best for whatever reason. A case of telling rather than showing.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> I feel Lorgar would still get pasted in CC with another Primarch (depending on who it is).
> 
> As for at this point in the Heresy, it is debatable whether Lorgar's Psychic power is on par with Magnus's or not.




Oh really? How do you explain him taking on Angraath the Unbound?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> Oh really? How do you explain him taking on Angraath the Unbound?


And what of it? Magnus tore through the psychic defences of the imperial palace from half the galaxy away. A beaten and wounded Sanguinius managed to heft Ka'Bandha by the neck and break its back over his leg on Terra.

Lorgar is powerful, and more so now that he has accepted his role in the galaxy, but Magnus has relatively been in control of things like that for decades if not a century or two.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

darkreever said:


> And what of it? Magnus tore through the psychic defences of the imperial palace from half the galaxy away. A beaten and wounded Sanguinius managed to heft Ka'Bandha by the neck and break its back over his leg on Terra.
> 
> Lorgar is powerful, and more so now that he has accepted his role in the galaxy, but Magnus has relatively been in control of things like that for decades if not a century or two.



Okay, obviously reading comprehension was an issue when you read that part about Magnus. You realize that was a Chaos God (Tzeentch) helping him do that, unless you believe the continents of power he spoke of were the Gods from Lord of the Rings. A primarch beating another greater daemon is kinda the point I'm making. Also, realize that Magnus THOUGHT he was in control of a lot...... obviously the fact that when the mutations started to return Tzeentch told him straight up that he had nothing to deal since he already owned his soul. Magnus, while powerful, probably had a larger ego than Horus in many ways. Though Horus thought he could use the gods to his own ends in a power sharing bargain, Magnus didn't even consider them to be anything but benign intelligences that he used as platforms for power. Idiot.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, obviously reading comprehension was an issue when you read that part about Magnus. You realize that was a Chaos God (Tzeentch) helping him do that, unless you believe the continents of power he spoke of were the Gods from Lord of the Rings. A primarch beating another greater daemon is kinda the point I'm making. Also, realize that Magnus THOUGHT he was in control of a lot...... obviously the fact that when the mutations started to return Tzeentch told him straight up that he had nothing to deal since he already owned his soul. Magnus, while powerful, probably had a larger ego than Horus in many ways. Though Horus thought he could use the gods to his own ends in a power sharing bargain, Magnus didn't even consider them to be anything but benign intelligences that he used as platforms for power. Idiot.


are you trying to argue that Lorgar was a more powerful psyker then Magnus lol......lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The greatness of Horus has never really been described though. We've just been told that he is the best for whatever reason. A case of telling rather than showing.


Unfortunately, that is correct.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Unfortunately, that is correct.


Do you think someone could actually accomplish the task in words though?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

No, I'm not talking in terms of power. I'm saying Lorgar comprehended what he was really dealing with before Magnus had. Even though he was exposed for a lot shorter period than Magnus who had been dealing with these entities for a lot longer.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm saying Lorgar comprehended what he was really dealing with before Magnus had.


Did he? Lorgar claims he doesn't trust Chaos, yet he never appears to question anything they say or demand of him. No moral transgression is too much. He appears to revel in his self-proclaimed role as arch-priest of Chaos.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Do you think someone could actually accomplish the task in words though?


To a degree, sure. Whatever your impression of 'Fallen Angels' was, to cite one example, there's no denying that Mike Lee elegantly showed the kind of genius and brainpower a Primarch - in this case, the Lion - would possess.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I believe Lorgar was equally as powerful as Magnus, each however had their talents in their own respective concentration. I believe nearly all of the displays of psychic might that Magnus displayed were for the most part being channeled through him by the chaos gods, in particular that of Tzneetch.

Lorgar on the other hand was aware that the mystic power flowing through him was not his own, but rather that of the chaos gods. Furthermore Lorgar's power was being drawn from all four chaos god, each god gifting Lorgar in different ways. Comparatively Magnus's power primarily stemmed from Tzeneetch, thus the power Magnus wielded would be more concentrated in one field of expertise. 

Lorgar had a far broader grasp of the chaotic spectrum, in both understanding as well as utilization of its power. Magnus was deriving almost entirely from Tzeneetch which is why his powers were far more specialized in scope, and why his understanding was far more micro centric in comparison to Lorgar's macro centric understanding.

Neither Magnus or Lorgar had more psychic power and or potential than the other, rather it was merely a differentiation in where their power was being derived from and how they chose to utilize it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll respectfully disagree. I don't disagree that Lorgar truly came into his own during his quest for enlightenment; nor do I disagree that the power he unlocked (whatever its source) made him truly formidable. I don't think Lorgar's exhibitions of power necessarily constitute an indication of what kind of power _Magnus_ possesses, though. Just because you _can_ do a thing does not necessarily mean you _should_ do a thing. Magnus qualifies that much of what Lorgar Aurelian does in the latter parts of _The First Heretic,_ 'Aurelian', and _Betrayer_ is repugnant and/or an indication of hubris... but notice that _he isn't in awe,_ either.

One final thing. Much of what Lorgar achieves is dependent on ritual that requires catalysts of tremendous scale: the Warp Storms he unleashes on Ultramar and Angron's transformation were contingent on suffering on an unimaginable scale, and required the efforts of two Legions of Space Marines and millions of other minions. Magnus, too, requires ritual and such, but much of what _he_ is shown to do/achieve comes from from _his own wellspring of power and force of will._

One of the things I had been - and still am - really looking forward to seeing in the Heresy series is exactly how Magnus is handled post-Prospero. Thus far, I think his cameos have been spot-on in terms of what (I hoped) his temperament, personality, and response to the disasters that befell him are concerned.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> One of the things I had been - and still am - really looking forward to seeing in the Heresy series is exactly how Magnus is handled post-Prospero. Thus far, I think his cameos have been spot-on in terms of what (I hoped) his temperament, personality, and response to the disasters that befell him are concerned.


Have you listened to _Thief of Revelations_?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

No. I really want to, but I feel like a five-minute audio is a tease. Or, rather, I question whether there would be anything of substance in that type of format. If there were to be a revelation - character-based, event-wise, etc. - I would expect it to be in a novel or a novella.

If I'm wrong, though, do tell me!


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The greatness of Horus has never really been described though. We've just been told that he is the best for whatever reason. A case of telling rather than showing.


I think though this is the mysticism that comes with Warhammer 40k; a sort of "Do -Not-Touch" zone for the writers. In this ways it leaves them and others open to interpretation by fan boys and writers alike. To "Define" that in anyway would put a limit on them as far as the power they wield, and thus make them fallible. Therefore, while I personally would love to see a duel involving the Emperor, for the sake of the cannon lore they should leave well enough alone.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I sincerely hope there is no such "do not touch" zone.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Lux said:


> I believe Lorgar was equally as powerful as Magnus, each however had their talents in their own respective concentration. I believe nearly all of the displays of psychic might that Magnus displayed were for the most part being channeled through him by the chaos gods, in particular that of Tzneetch.
> 
> Lorgar on the other hand was aware that the mystic power flowing through him was not his own, but rather that of the chaos gods. Furthermore Lorgar's power was being drawn from all four chaos god, each god gifting Lorgar in different ways. Comparatively Magnus's power primarily stemmed from Tzeneetch, thus the power Magnus wielded would be more concentrated in one field of expertise.
> 
> ...



I have yet to see any evidence that Lorgar was superior, or even equal, to Magnus in terms of psychic power. His feats don't back it up either. Lorgar crushed a few squads of marines, killed a titan with a piece of thunderhawk and managed to block _one_ shot from the titan's cannon successfully. Magnus has killed multiple titans (without needing to fling debree at them), manipulated time during that first confrontation with the Space Wolves messengers, psychically stonewalled an entire planet for weeks when the wolves were on route, and wiped out scores of Wolves and Custodes, doing crazy shit like turning water into acid etc. all while fighting another primarch...

And, if I recall correctly, Lorgar himself mentions in _Betrayer_ that, despite how far he has come, Magnus is still more powerful and knowledgeable than him. I think he still says that simply being near a psychic projection of Magnus from half a galaxy away still set his teeth on edge. When they chat he even mentions that _Magnus_ got their father's "power" and "facelesness"... not both of them, just Magnus. Which to me says that in Lorgar's own opinion Magnus was still undisputed top dog in terms of psyker primarchs. IMO it is pretty clear which of the two is more powerful.

Magnus is still a dick... but a stupidly powerful one.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Magnus is protected. Not by plot armour, but my McNeil. His characters always seem to perform feats that make you think "No. Just no." While that may not seem too out of the ordinary, his writing style is incapable of putting across the "gravity", basically "Ooh cool"; the equivalent of comparing Saints Row to a superhero game.

The two have the same premise, super-powered bullshit, but the superhero game (Batman, say), at least tends to take itself somewhat seriously.

Fulgrim's sonic shriek liquifying the crew of a Titan, Magnus playing Ragdoll with a Titan, Fulgrim taking a punch from Ferrus Manus, who had already knocked down a Dreadnought with no damage visible... Doesn't come across as well.

Compare that to how Angron lifted up the foot of a Titan; it came across as real superhuman effort, not just somehow hardwired into them. 

It's the whole Superman versus batman, I guess.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Eh, McNeil wankery or not, still canon.

Besides, I personally found Mr. Nykona I'm-a-primarch-sniping-supremely-awesome-at-everything-ninja-including-melee-and-range-combat-and-custom-modding-jump-packs-and-stealth-gear-to-a-degree-you'd-only-expect-from-a-techmarine-as-well-as-curbstomping-supposed-skilled-characters-without-breaking-a-sweet Sharrowkyn to be far more full of McNeil wank than any of his portrayals of primarchs. Seriously, if Ward and McNeil get together I wouldn't be surprised if Sharrowkyn ended up related to Kaldor Draigo... actually, I even prefer Draigo. He still has the hopeless, tragic hero thing going for him. Sharrowkyn is just overpowered. Though to highlight the difference, even he would get his ass murdered in moments in a straight fight with a Primarch.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

randian said:


> Did he? Lorgar claims he doesn't trust Chaos, yet he never appears to question anything they say or demand of him. No moral transgression is too much. He appears to revel in his self-proclaimed role as arch-priest of Chaos.




Lorgar accepts the truth of the primordial annihilator: There's no real way to stop Chaos. He knows, as now Magnus does, that the Gods are playing at levels the Daemon Primarchs only now understand. Where Magnus saw them as benign warp power, now he knows there is a sinister intelligence behind it. Had he known or seen that from the beginning maybe would have played out differently. For Lorgar there's nothing to question. He knows what the Warp powers are and has accepted it. Multiple speeches from even SM's in his legion acknowledge and accept the horror and nature of the warp, a perfect example is in Betrayer with a conversation of Argel Tal and Kharn.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Magnus has displayed feats of superior raw power in regards to warp-craft related abilities, in comparison Lorgar has displayed feats of superior broad scope war-craft related abilities. I believe Magnus's displays of power for the most part were only made possible due to the chaos god Tzeneetch empowering him, I am stating that Magnus did not accomplish his goals on his own. Furthermore I am arguing for the fact that nearly all of Magnus's feats of psychic might were for the most part being empowered by a chaos god, that it was not Magnus's own power. 

When Magnus effortlessly brought down a titan, broke into the imperial way, or stopped time, he was being bolstered and empowered by a particular chaos god in the warp. I am not stating that Magnus had no "power" of his own, rather I am arguing that the definition of psychic power used upon this forum is commonly inaccurate. I am arguing that a individual's psychic "power", and "potential" has nothing to do with the feats of psychic might and or accomplishments they make manifest. Rather an individual's psychic "power", and or "potential" is how effectively to what extent they can channel the powers of the warp. One must make certain to remember that psychic powers are never manifested from the individuals own repotoire of essence, rather it is the individual conjuring and channeling the infinite powers of the warp through their own self as a conduit.

Thus psychic power should be classified by how well an individual can channel the powers of the warp, and in how effective the individual is in acting as a conduit for warp energy being made manifest in the tangible realm. With that being stated I believe that Magnus, and Lorgar are equals in their psychic "power" as well as "potential". Both individuals are equals in their ability to channel the near infinite powers of the warp, their difference lies in where they are drawing the warp energy from that they are channeling. Magnus for the most part has believed through the entirity of his existance that the warp was free flowing energy, filled with for the most part non-sentient batteries of psychic energy. Magnus ignorantly drew up any, and all sources of energy within the warp believing it was his own inherent ability that was crafting it. However that was not the case, as it is later demonstrated that the energy Magnus has been using to make his accomplishments manifest has been given to him by Tzeneetch. Furthermore as soon as the Warp God that was supplying him his energy took it away from him Magnus was left helpless, Magnus was powerless in stopping Russ and he was powerless in stopping the mutations of his legion. In comparison to the Emperor who had the psychic power, and potential to effectively wield the powers of the warp without them being drawn from the Warp gods. Magnus lacked the power, and expertise in order to draw the infinite powers of the warp without the direct assistance of a chaos god spoon feeding it to him as well as helping him to shape it.

Lorgar saw and accepted that the psychic might that flowed through him was never his own to begin with, rather what was his own was his ability and potential to channel that psychic might. However the power itself was supplied from the warp, and in his case it was being handed to him by the Chaos gods. It is imperative for one to differentiate the psychic power (in all its forms) that an individual is manifesting, and their potential for the amount of psychic power that they are able to channel at any given moment. Furthermore psychic power is also defined not only by the sheer quantity of it that they are able to utilize, but also in how an individual is how to shape and manifest it in various forms.

The only difference between Lorgar and Magnus lied in who was supplying their power, and the will that each of their respective suppliers had in mind when channeling their power through them. Tzeneetch wanted to channel grandiose displays of power through Magnus, it wanted to flow accomplishments of overwhelming power through Magnus in order to cultivate hubris. It was never Magnus's own power, and or abilities that allowed him to accomplish his feats of psychic mastery. Rather it was the will of the Chaos god Tzeneetch that he had ignorantly allowed to flow through his being entirely, for magnus had assumed that the energy/will of Tzeneetch was nothing more than the non-sentient energy of the warp. In summary it was the Warp that manipulated, and utilized Magnus was a doorway for their power and will into the tangible realm. Lorgar on the other hand was just as much a willing doorway for the chaos gods, in channeling both their power and will into the tangible realm. 

In conclusion the reason the displays of psychic power differed between Lorgar, and Magnus was due to what the chaos gods wanted to accomplish through them. For Magnus the goal was to cultivate hubris, thus they channeled great displays of grandiose psychic accomplishment through him, for Lorgar it was far different. The neccesity of instilling a sense of purpose, and an inherent underlying will of being chosen is what Lorgar needed. Thus the chaos gods channeled their power, and will through Lorgar to manifest psychic feats of wide spreading proportions. Lorgar had no interest in manifesting psychic might on the micro centric level, he didn't care for overpowering his enemies in direct confrontation. Thus the chaos gods manifested psychic power through him, power that allowed Lorgar to believe he was influencing the galaxy on a macro centric level. A exemplary display of this would be the sector wide ritual that used Lorgar as the key conduit, which in turn transformed Angron into a daemon prince. Lorgar and Magnus were nothing more than tools in the eyes of the chaos gods, each with their own equally defined purpose of application.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Lux said:


> Magnus has displayed feats of superior raw power in regards to warp-craft related abilities, in comparison Lorgar has displayed feats of superior broad scope war-craft related abilities. I believe Magnus's displays of power for the most part were only made possible due to the chaos god Tzeneetch empowering him, I am stating that Magnus did not accomplish his goals on his own. Furthermore I am arguing for the fact that nearly all of Magnus's feats of psychic might were for the most part being empowered by a chaos god, that it was not Magnus's own power.


Considering your love for both Curze and Lorgar, I can't even fathom how biased your entire point here is.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Considering your love for both Curze and Lorgar, I can't even fathom how biased your entire point here is.


Well I suppose my level of bias is entirely decided by your perception, which consequently your perception is shaped by your own personal bias. 

However I feel the remainder of my prior post is on spot, and relevant to the discussion in this thread.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Lux said:


> Magnus has displayed feats of superior raw power in regards to warp-craft related abilities, in comparison Lorgar has displayed feats of superior broad scope war-craft related abilities. I believe Magnus's displays of power for the most part were only made possible due to the chaos god Tzeneetch empowering him, I am stating that Magnus did not accomplish his goals on his own. Furthermore I am arguing for the fact that nearly all of Magnus's feats of psychic might were for the most part being empowered by a chaos god, that it was not Magnus's own power.


Examples of Lorgar's "superior" feats of broad scope warp-craft please?

And there is only _one_ example of Magnus drawing on an external power (excluding rituals) to bolster his in _A Thousand Sons_, and that is when he breaks down the wards on the Imperial Palace. And considering that they make a specific point to show him in a moment where his own power was insufficient, I'm inclined to believe the rest of his feats was based solely on his own ability to manipulate warp energy. The rest is just hearsay on your part. 



Lux said:


> When Magnus effortlessly brought down a titan, broke into the imperial way, or stopped time, he was being bolstered and empowered by a particular chaos god in the warp. I am not stating that Magnus had no "power" of his own, rather I am arguing that the definition of psychic power used upon this forum is commonly inaccurate. *I am arguing that a individual's psychic "power", and "potential" has nothing to do with the feats of psychic might and or accomplishments they make manifest. Rather an individual's psychic "power", and or "potential" is how effectively to what extent they can channel the powers of the warp.* One must make certain to remember that psychic powers are never manifested from the individuals own repotoire of essence, rather it is the individual conjuring and channeling the infinite powers of the warp through their own self as a conduit.


I highlighted that bit in bold because it makes no fucking sense to me whatsoever. Isn't their feats and accomplishments exactly that, a way to show how skillfully and how much warp energy they can channel and use? As to the part after that... well, no shit. Psykers draw their power from the warp, some have a stronger connection to it than others and can draw on more power... I really don't see your point.



Lux said:


> Thus psychic power should be classified by how well an individual can channel the powers of the warp, and in how effective the individual is in acting as a conduit for warp energy being made manifest in the tangible realm. With that being stated I believe that Magnus, and Lorgar are equals in their psychic "power" as well as "potential". Both individuals are equals in their ability to channel the near infinite powers of the warp, their difference lies in where they are drawing the warp energy from that they are channeling. Magnus for the most part has believed through the entirity of his existance that the warp was free flowing energy, filled with for the most part non-sentient batteries of psychic energy. Magnus ignorantly drew up any, and all sources of energy within the warp believing it was his own inherent ability that was crafting it. However that was not the case, as it is later demonstrated that the energy Magnus has been using to make his accomplishments manifest has been given to him by Tzeneetch. Furthermore as soon as the Warp God that was supplying him his energy took it away from him Magnus was left helpless, *Magnus was powerless in stopping Russ and he was powerless in stopping the mutations of his legion*. In comparison to the Emperor who had the psychic power, and potential to effectively wield the powers of the warp without them being drawn from the Warp gods. Magnus lacked the power, and expertise in order to draw the infinite powers of the warp without the direct assistance of a chaos god spoon feeding it to him as well as helping him to shape it.


Again the bold bit first... *Where the bloody hell was Magnus powerless against Russ???*. They were fighting equally (in fact one could argue that Magnus had the upper hand at more than one point in the fight) and Russ only got an advantage when he got a _lucky_ shot in on Magnus' eye. And again all this stuff about Tzeentch doing everything for Magnus is purely your own opinion, with zero to actually back it up. As for the fleshchange... yeah, it was a _deal_ between Magnus and Tzeentch. One where Magnus got screwed over. It doesn't really reflect anyone's power. It reflects Magnus' arrogance. He thought he'd _intellectually_ bested a being of the warp. That's it.



Lux said:


> Lorgar saw and accepted that the psychic might that flowed through him was never his own to begin with, rather what was his own was his ability and potential to channel that psychic might. However the power itself was supplied from the warp, and in his case it was being handed to him by the Chaos gods. It is imperative for one to differentiate the psychic power (in all its forms) that an individual is manifesting, and their potential for the amount of psychic power that they are able to channel at any given moment. *Furthermore psychic power is also defined not only by the sheer quantity of it that they are able to utilize, but also in how an individual is how to shape and manifest it in various forms.*


Well... considering that, other than rituals, Lorgar only ever really displays TK, this still goes to Magnus. Magnus was TK'ing shit as a friggin' baby already (see his arrival on Prospero), and has displayed a far wider variety of uses for his power than Lorgar has. 



Lux said:


> The only difference between Lorgar and Magnus lied in who was supplying their power, and the will that each of their respective suppliers had in mind when channeling their power through them. Tzeneetch wanted to channel grandiose displays of power through Magnus, it wanted to flow accomplishments of overwhelming power through Magnus in order to cultivate hubris. It was never Magnus's own power, and or abilities that allowed him to accomplish his feats of psychic mastery. Rather it was the will of the Chaos god Tzeneetch that he had ignorantly allowed to flow through his being entirely, for magnus had assumed that the energy/will of Tzeneetch was nothing more than the non-sentient energy of the warp. In summary it was the Warp that manipulated, and utilized Magnus was a doorway for their power and will into the tangible realm. Lorgar on the other hand was just as much a willing doorway for the chaos gods, in channeling both their power and will into the tangible realm.


Again this is all just more of your theories with zero in the fluff to genuinely back it up. Also, it's Tzeentch, not Tzeneetch.



Lux said:


> In conclusion the reason the displays of psychic power differed between Lorgar, and Magnus was due to what the chaos gods wanted to accomplish through them. For Magnus the goal was to cultivate hubris, thus they channeled great displays of grandiose psychic accomplishment through him, for Lorgar it was far different. The neccesity of instilling a sense of purpose, and an inherent underlying will of being chosen is what Lorgar needed. Thus the chaos gods channeled their power, and will through Lorgar to manifest psychic feats of wide spreading proportions. Lorgar had no interest in manifesting psychic might on the micro centric level, he didn't care for overpowering his enemies in direct confrontation. Thus the chaos gods manifested psychic power through him, power that allowed Lorgar to believe he was influencing the galaxy on a macro centric level. A exemplary display of this would be the sector wide ritual that used Lorgar as the key conduit, which in turn transformed Angron into a daemon prince. Lorgar and Magnus were nothing more than tools in the eyes of the chaos gods, each with their own equally defined purpose of application.


Yeah... more of your own theories. And it's funny also because all your theories _completely_ ignore the role the Emperor had in the development of the primarchs and their individual traits. Y'know... the guy who _actually made_ them. The Emperor planned for Magnus to one day sit on the GT and power and guide the human armies in the Webway. It was Magnus with who the Emperor stayed in constant psychic communion with. It was Magnus the Emperor took to teaching the mysteries of the warp. Why would he not include Lorgar if Lorgar was Magnus' equal? Even if it was untrained and undeveloped, a psyker of the Emperor's power and ability would have detected Lorgar's potential if it had been anywhere near that of Magnus. 

And you are still not addressing the point of _Lorgar himself_ acknowledging that Magnus is his superior psychically (in both _Betrayer_ where he states Magnus still trumps him in power and knowledge, even at a later point drawing a parallel between Magnus and the Emperor in terms of power, and in _Aurelian_ where he pretty much says that, in his mind, Magnus is the most powerful among the Primarchs). But I really should not be surprised I guess. Actually addressing the fluff, instead of spewing your own baseless theories, has never been your style.

In my opinion this is just more of your usual bias trying to overplay the power of your favorite primarchs. You constantly do it with Curze, so I shouldn't be surprised that you do it with Lorgar too.

Anyway, I'm done with that argument. I think most people with any sense will know that Magnus > Lorgar in terms of psychic power.

Back on topic. You really can't compare marines to Primarchs. At Isstvan Angron was taking out 3 - 4 marines with _individual blows_. Corax was killing marines by literally flicking rocks at them. You have guys like Lorgar and Magnus who wipe out entire marine squads without even actually paying attention to them. Every time a marine, or even group of marines, try to take on a Primarch they die quickly and horribly (unless the Primarch intentionally draws it out). Another good example is in _Brotherhood of the Storm_. White Scars captains get their asses completely reamed by the main Ork warlord at the end. The Khan pitches up and takes the Warlord apart like he's cutting a cake. Primarchs are so far above marines it's not even funny. It's literally like putting a professional mixed martial artist up against a toddler who just learned to walk.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> That much, is abundantly clear.


I lol'ed, quite a lot at this. Thank you for that.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

My pleasure :laugh:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

In fact. I enjoyed that so much, It's going in my sig.


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## XXTerminus DecreeXX (Jan 25, 2014)

Gonna have to go with Chompy Bits! Back to the topic I'd say The Primarchs were extremely tough, not invincible but def taking down scores of SM before getting injured and even then with there natural healing abilities able to keep on fighting, maybe even 100+ during Istavan but that hasn't been verified


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## Muhr (Mar 14, 2014)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i thought lorgar was one of the weakest of the primarchs in terms of fighting ability?
> 
> was he a powerful psyker? on magnus level?


Not on Magnus's level, no, but still seemingly far more so than the rest of his brothers. In Aurelian, Lorgar defeats An'ggrath the Unbound in single combat, and he was the most powerful Bloodthirster ever to materialise into reality. Also, in Betrayer, Lorgar's thoughts drift into relishing the next time he encounters Corax: "He [Lorgar] even, in his less humble moments, hungered to face Corax again. Things wouldn't play out so perfectly in the Raven Lord's favour next time - of that, Lorgar was sure." *ominous dirge*


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

There is many feats in the books of the strength of Primarchs and their durability.

Fulgrim physically choked a Avatar of Khain to death. This means his Skin is durable enough to withstand Lava heats, and strong enough to choke a statue lol.
Lion El Jhonson and Luther battling cause the castle like fort they were on to crumble in large pieces from the aftershocks of their blows.
Vulcan I beleive cause a minor earth quake pounding the ground.
Angron survived a mountain falling on him, and then dug through the quoted 1000s of tons with little effort. 
When Fulgrim fought Manus in their first battle, Manus took a Thunder Hammer to the head, only for a slight KO.
Horus had a space ship fall, and pierce his chest. Yet he through it off him, and healed right up.

In short..... Primarchs feats in books put them LEAGUES ahead of Marine, and even superior to most Daemon Princes. They are more akin to powerful Greater Deamons than anything.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

According to my experience, Primarch power level varies greatly. Namely, it depends on factors such as author, book, situation, and simple entertainment.

For example, most of the Primarchs almost casually massacre whole squads of Space Marines at once, but our 'Avenging Son' almost get killed by an Alpha Legion hit squadㅡeven if he is completely unarmed and defenceless, I think it is a little absurd, especially when compared to the Night Haunter, who take a active role in the same novel. In the previous HH series, Primarchs are portrayed consistently virtually impervious to 'mere' boltershall variants and withstand a direct hit by tank guns and aerial bombardments _without a scratch_.

Another great example of elastic power level of Primarchs is the Lord of Raven. In the previous novels(such as 'The First Heretic' and several of short stories) Corvus Corax not only slaughtered whole army of Gal Vorbak and annihilated most of them but also rip apart Predator tanks and endured all of the punishments.
Whereas in novella Corax: Soulforge, he almost get killed by 3 Defiler(if there is no air support, he would certainly have died) and struggled with a mere mutated Chaos sorcerer, and he was not even particularly powerful or renowned one.

If there is any solid consistency in Primarch power level, it is that even if Primarchs in their weakest state, he could slay full-blown veteran Astartes like they are 5 year old child. Then again, there is exceptions like Kor Phaeron, 13th Primarch again almost get killed by a mere half-Astartes, and only through exploiting Master of Faith's chronic hubris Roboute could defeat himㅡand at the same time, Leman Russ was practically inviolable almost all of the Warp magick except ones wielded by his brother equal and future nemesis, the Crimson King.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

It may have been awhile since I've read the books, but I'm pretty sure a primarch took down a titan at one time.

A single Space Marine could never hope to do that, unless he was monumentally lucky with his Lascannon.


Another brought down an Avatar by himself. Also an incredible feat.

For the life of me I can't remember the _names._


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Alsojames said:


> It may have been awhile since I've read the books, but I'm pretty sure a primarch took down a titan at one time.
> 
> A single Space Marine could never hope to do that, unless he was monumentally lucky with his Lascannon.
> 
> ...


In fact, Red Cyclops successfully crushed utterly an Eldar Titan using his sheer psychic might, which is much bigger than standard Imperial Warlord, though it costed his stamina greatly.

Also, if I remember correctly, Lorgar and Angron destroyed a Ultramarine Warhound Titan together. Lorgar took consecutive point-blank range hit by Titan plasma blastgun and survived(though badly mauled, he managed to stand on his feet), while Angron held on Warhound's whole weight-which is 410 tonnes-alone, and then Lorgar throw huge rock through telekinesis which overloaded Titan's void shield generator, thus destroyed it inversely.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Alsojames said:


> It may have been awhile since I've read the books, but I'm pretty sure a primarch took down a titan at one time.
> 
> A single Space Marine could never hope to do that, unless he was monumentally lucky with his Lascannon.
> 
> ...





Ecumene said:


> In fact, Red Cyclops successfully crushed utterly an Eldar Titan using his sheer psychic might, which is much bigger than standard Imperial Warlord, though it costed his stamina greatly.
> 
> Also, if I remember correctly, Lorgar and Angron destroyed a Ultramarine Warhound Titan together. Lorgar took consecutive point-blank range hit by Titan plasma blastgun and survived(though badly mauled, he managed to stand on his feet), while Angron held on Warhound's whole weight-which is 410 tonnes-alone, and then Lorgar throw huge rock through telekinesis which overloaded Titan's void shield generator, thus destroyed it inversely.


What he said, also it was Fulgrim who choked to death a AoK lol, how is even possible :laugh:


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Warlock in Training said:


> What he said, also it was Fulgrim who choked to death a AoK lol, how is even possible :laugh:


And you have omitted the Primarch's hand bones are harder than Wraithbone(though his hand bled during the breaking process)! Oh, poor, poor Khiraen Goldhelm.:laugh:
A mysterious thing is, as far as I know, Avatars do not need to _breathe_.:shok:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ecumene said:


> And you have omitted the Primarch's hand bones are harder than Wraithbone(though his hand bled during the breaking process)! Oh, poor, poor Khiraen Goldhelm.:laugh:
> A mysterious thing is, as far as I know, Avatars do not need to _breathe_.:shok:


I know right lol. You choke the lava out of him? WTH :laugh: Thats like Chuck Norris not doing push ups, but pushing the world down lol. 

Primarchs are the Chuck Norris's of 40K


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I always thought Avatars were constructs. As in, not organic.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Alsojames said:


> I always thought Avatars were constructs. As in, not organic.


Yes, that is accurate. They are Statues with Lava for blood pretty much. nothing more and nothing less.


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