# Deep strike discussion point



## Churlton (Nov 23, 2007)

I've had a search, so; apologies if this has been done before.

I think Deep Strike needs "tweaking".

I don't mean a complete overhaul ... just tweaking to better represent actions, improve game mechanics and encourage its use more.

Although the cynic in me must confess that sales of transports would surely fall, hhhmmm!:angel:

Back to the point; I find deepstriking with my BAs a thoroughly daunting and chancy affair, where the cons far outweigh the pros.

Consider the scatter; I can be guaranteed to: 
a. land on that Commisars epuillettes ... Squad lost
b. chance my arm on the rear armour shot ... off the table ... squad lost
c. scatter back into my lines ... squad embarrassed
d. land in the only difficult terrain around .. men lost
etc...

Consider the tactical uses:
a. Cleanse mission, to immediately get in a neutral quarter or if damned lucky... that enemy deployment zone that has been abandoned in a charge fuelled frenzy (... Nids anyone?)
b. You are a lesser daemon mob.. I can accept that
c. I can leave my boys nicely in rapid fire range (return fire)
d. ........Ditto........................ assault range (..ditto.....)

Any way; these I can live with (just)
but......
Then let us consider the Pie plate!!!

Honestly .... even the cookie plate template can seriously upset your day.

"Right chaps, I want a good clean exit. Hold hands on the way down, just to stay nice and bunched up. By the numbers!"
" We wouldn't want them hurt themselves by having to change aim .. would we?"

I can understand teleporting would expect such close drill; but Halo-ing in ?

So what is this tweak?

Just allow a reasonable placement, even if it is back to the pie-plate idea (?3rd ed).
eg. first man in .. scatter ... place the rest in coherency with no one closer to the enemy than than the first marker.(otherwise the classic conga-line deployment to get that special weapon into optimum range!!)


The problem is that pretty much any idea is going to be open to abuse, but do you have any better thoughts?


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## Archangel (Dec 30, 2007)

Deep Strike + Random Dice = Loss of lots and lots of units
Deep Strike + Teleport Homer = Godliness

Thus endeth the lesson.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

can you use a teleport homer from inside a vehical


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

In the new Chaos codex you can. The DS'ing unit comes onto the table within 6" of the vehicle.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

I think i got told that in the Pdf thingy thats going about, GW are thinking about having a random mishap table for deep striking in the new version of the 40k rule they are meant to be working on.


MarzM


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Yeah the mishaps will still be pretty bad (if the pdf is true). If *any* of the models can't be placed then you roll on the mishap table as follows:

1. Dead
2-3. Lost somewhere. Count as below half strength but not destroyed (which means probably no points given away under the new scenarios).
4-6. Your opponent gets to deploy them anywhere he likes without scatter.

Deep striking units will treat difficult terrain as dangerous and can fire or run on the turn they land. Being able to run does help a little, as you might be able to get out of a really bad position.

Having your opponent deploy the unit really won't be fun. It's probably not as bad as having your guys destroyed, but you can expect to be placed so as to give an accelerating charge to a unit of khorne berzerkers, or something equally unpleasant, I expect.

There's no change yet to the placement of models. one guy gets deployed and scatters, the rest form circles round him.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

I really hate deepstriking. I take about a million years to deploy. and it's really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, REALLY, annoying to have a unit of terminators strike 4" away and strike and get into combat first turn. However, with the Drop Troops doctrine it's fun to strike right next to the objective. That causes a huge implosion of my friends mind though. As for your tweeks, you mus be really unlucky with deep strikers. I never lost more than 2 men when deep striking.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Having your opponent move your models is a bit...unnerving.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> Having your opponent move your models is a bit...unnerving.


dont touch them just tell me where to place them


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

Someguy said:


> Yeah the mishaps will still be pretty bad (if the pdf is true). If *any* of the models can't be placed then you roll on the mishap table as follows:
> 
> 1. Dead
> 2-3. Lost somewhere. Count as below half strength but not destroyed (which means probably no points given away under the new scenarios).
> ...


If this is true then it sounds like they are making it much easier for you to get shafted while just doing basically the same thing. I do like deep striking, the variability adds to the fun of the game but while randomness is often cool, losing a deep striking squad to this mishap table sounds like some sort of sadistic joke. 

Deep striking troops (unless drop troop guard) will be for most players expensive elite infantry, ala terminators, obliterators. If you lose an entire squad of those then thats 200-300 pts gone. Or if they are shoved by your enemy in a tactically crap location like the back corner of your deployment zone they're shafted. Even on a 2-3 on the roll table you still lose the unit that could have helped fight on the battlefield. In a 1500 point game it'd feel more like punishment for deep striking than just an added risk.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

just have to use drop pods and no tanks just dreds and troops lol

then he will be pissed


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

the lore indicates that at least teleporting should be done without rolling scatter die. 
thus I think it would necessitate specific wargear (some kind of disrupter) to make your opponent scatter on a teleport.
Drop pods should always scatter though.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Nosotros said:


> the lore indicates that at least teleporting should be done without rolling scatter die.
> thus I think it would necessitate specific wargear (some kind of disrupter) to make your opponent scatter on a teleport.
> Drop pods should always scatter though.


yeah but its alot safer

use the point from tanks / trans port to use drop pods / dreds / heavy squads 


if that rule came into play


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Mad King George said:


> yeah but its alot safer
> 
> use the point from tanks / trans port to use drop pods / dreds / heavy squads
> 
> ...


to balance that out I guess you could say that all enemy units (individual units killteam/lotr style?) within 6" that can draw line of sight are able to shoot at them the turn they pop up, kind of like what an inquisitorial mystic henchman will do


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

never heard of that rule 

but if you have a 15 man squad in a crusader 

you have 270+ points free - drop od thats 200 you can get a dred for that reduce squad to 10 and get a pod for dred too

so

crusader + upgrades
+ 15 man squad becomes

2xdreds + pods
10 man squad +pod


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Alexander_67 said:


> If this is true then it sounds like they are making it much easier for you to get shafted while just doing basically the same thing.


Kind of.

This table only gets rolled on if you can't place some of the models, for whatever reason. Usually because they have scattered badly.

In the current situation, if you can't place models then they die. It's pretty common for them to go off table, land on another unit (friendly or enemy, though they can at least be within 1" of friends) and to be destroyed.

This mishap table doesn't introduce a new threat to deep strikers. Most of the time it actually means that you suffer less from a bad scatter. The worst that can happen is your squad is lost, which is what happens now.


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## Churlton (Nov 23, 2007)

Someguy said:


> Kind of.
> 
> This table only gets rolled on if you can't place some of the models, for whatever reason. Usually because they have scattered badly.
> 
> This mishap table doesn't introduce a new threat to deep strikers. Most of the time it actually means that you suffer less from a bad scatter. The worst that can happen is your squad is lost, which is what happens now.


Thanks all for that rumour.
That is some nice news to me (I hadn't heard any rumours about a 5th Ed tweak).

At least it would technically lessen the chance of being FUBAR'd ... a definite plus point for me.

Still;
Circling placement with (lets say) 1d6 scatter for Teleport
Open formation (with 2d6 scatter) plus distance to the enemy restrictions for drop troops 
pods retain their normal rules eg immpassable terrain etc to represent the protection of the pod

would certainly make me happy (daemons can keep their specials) 
We have variations already..... what would be difficult about another couple of tweaks .... game mechanics-wise?


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

the only problem i have with deep striking is what you have to roll to see if they come. i've seen reserves never turn up in a battle and if its a unit of terminators thats a large chunk of your army gone.


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