# Escalation - What is superheavy?



## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Anyone got a list of the stuff Escalation covers? It says on the blurb all citadel superheavy vehicles and some forgeworld. What does that entail?


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

Basically we'll be able to use super heavies in regular 40k and not just apocalypse.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Yeah, that's the obvious bit. :wink:

But what is actually a super-heavy? Is there a list somewhere?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ravion said:


> Basically we'll be able to use super heavies in regular 40k and not just apocalypse.


Actually it's limited to specific ones in the book, but you've got the right idea.



nevynxxx said:


> Yeah, that's the obvious bit. :wink:
> 
> But what is actually a super-heavy? Is there a list somewhere?


They are massive vehicle that have large numbers of hull points and a large number of other rules. They include things like Baneblades, Titans and the Lord of Skulls. FW has a number in their Apocalypse books, and GW has some others in their Apocalypse core rulebook.


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

nevynxxx said:


> Yeah, that's the obvious bit. :wink:
> 
> But what is actually a super-heavy? Is there a list somewhere?


Here are some as defined by Forge World (with pics):

Space Marine Super Heavies
Imperial Guard Super Heavies
Imperial Navy Super Heavies
Tau Super Heavies
Ork Super Heavies
Eldar Super Heavies


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

So there isn't a list somewhere of the units covered in the book?


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

We won't know until the book comes out officially on Saturday 7 Dec!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

nevynxxx said:


> So there isn't a list somewhere of the units covered in the book?


Not at this time. They're all in Apocalypse or the FW books, but the full list of which ones will be allowed through Escalation are only going to be in this book.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm hoping with this release GW has the sense to not include the emperor titan. Other than that I am interested in seeing what happens with it.


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## Eva (Mar 16, 2010)

Just a little side question. Does anyone know how this books going to work? Like is it like planet strike? Where you agree to play it, or is just superheavies in all games of 40k?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I'm hoping with this release GW has the sense to not include the emperor titan. Other than that I am interested in seeing what happens with it.


That would be a bit much, even for Apocalypse 



Eva said:


> Just a little side question. Does anyone know how this books going to work? Like is it like planet strike? Where you agree to play it, or is just superheavies in all games of 40k?


As far as I'm aware it's exactly that. Supers in _any_ game of 40k.


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

Tawa said:


> As far as I'm aware it's exactly that. Supers in _any_ game of 40k.


I believe the usual pre-requisite applies though; the player using the Super Heavies must actually own a copy of the Escalation Rule book and have it in-hand during the game.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

It's a bit like playing Horus Heresy models though; The players agree before the game if it is a escalation match.

So that means that the Super-heavies will not be a main thing. In regular 40k battles, the same rules applies as they are now. 

They are just opening up for a new type of 40k battles, sort of like a expansion pack of sort. Non-apocalypse battles that allows for super-heavies to be deployed.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Escellation - What is superheavy?*



Nordicus said:


> It's a bit like playing Horus Heresy models though; The players agree before the game if it is a escalation match.
> 
> So that means that the Super-heavies will not be a main thing. In regular 40k battles, the same rules applies as they are now.
> 
> They are just opening up for a new type of 40k battles, sort of like a expansion pack of sort. Non-apocalypse battles that allows for super-heavies to be deployed.


Has this been confirmed? All I've been reading is that it's an addon to the core rules and NOT an add on expansion like planet strike and the like


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Ravner298 said:


> Has this been confirmed? All I've been reading is that it's an addon to the core rules and NOT an add on expansion like planet strike and the like


Last I spoke to GW in Copenhagen (last week), this was what they told me. I take their word for it higher than any rumor forum.


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

Nordicus said:


> It's a bit like playing Horus Heresy models though; The players agree before the game if it is a escalation match.
> 
> So that means that the Super-heavies will not be a main thing. In regular 40k battles, the same rules applies as they are now.
> 
> They are just opening up for a new type of 40k battles, sort of like a expansion pack of sort. Non-apocalypse battles that allows for super-heavies to be deployed.


This is excatly my understanding of this as well. As with any game of 40K Players should agree before the start of the game what limitations if any will be placed on the armies. the game is about having fun after all. not blowing everything up in one shot. Ive played many games where im just as happy losing as i am winning because im having fun. The supplement books are just another (optional) twist of the game.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Wookiepelt said:


> I believe the usual pre-requisite applies though; the player using the Super Heavies must actually own a copy of the Escalation Rule book and have it in-hand during the game.


Naturally  I should have put that in really :blush:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

This may even mean when I get to use my Stompa in a normal game, which would be a lot of fun.


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

I'm not sure what the GW store is telling you guys, but their website clearly states that this is meant to allow for superheavies in regular games, much like the stronghold assault. These are a supplement as valid as Clan Raukaan or Lyanden...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Eldar weren't good enough yet, so they had to give them Revenant Titans.

On the other hand, great response to Tau being good. I think pretty much every race except Dark Eldar gets at least one meaningful Super-Heavy, while Tau get precisely none.

Midnight


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Emperors Knights said:


> but their website clearly states that this is meant to allow for superheavies in regular games, much like the stronghold assault.


The way it is written I would argue that it can be perceived as either of us wrote it. It is not stated that it is mandatory addition to the core rules, but neither is it written as a optional rule set.

I guess we will have to wait and see. I still don't see super-heavies being a main thing.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> The way it is written I would argue that it can be perceived as either of us wrote it. It is not stated that it is mandatory addition to the core rules, but neither is it written as a optional rule set.
> 
> I guess we will have to wait and see. I still don't see super-heavies being a main thing.


Well taking four Codexes in one army is a thing now (Primary, Allied, Inquisitorial, Formation), so why not Super-Heavies?

Midnight


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Eldar weren't good enough yet, so they had to give them Revenant Titans.
> 
> On the other hand, great response to Tau being good. I think pretty much every race except Dark Eldar gets at least one meaningful Super-Heavy, while Tau get precisely none.
> 
> Midnight


No tau has the manta.


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

Nordicus said:


> The way it is written I would argue that it can be perceived as either of us wrote it. It is not stated that it is mandatory addition to the core rules, but neither is it written as a optional rule set.
> 
> I guess we will have to wait and see. I still don't see super-heavies being a main thing.


Please show me what you are reading because the way it is written says for us to be able to take super heavies in our 40k games. This isn't a new game release, this is another rule book like Death from the Skies. Now does everyone use flyer ace rules or dogfighting? No, but mostly because they don't really do that much for the game; however when the opportunity arises to take these megatanks (or in my case my $700 dollar thunderhawk) in a game... yes I will jump all over that.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> No tau has the manta.


I think you missed the word 'meaningful'. 99.99% of people have never even seen a Manta, and those who have them will never use them.

I think that everyone who's jumping all over the chance to run their super-heavies have to remember that it's still with opponent's permission. Worth noting before you start rushing to buy Baneblades with Power Field Generator Librarians giving them invulnerables and twin-linked.

Midnight


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I think you missed the word 'meaningful'. 99.99% of people have never even seen a Manta, and those who have them will never use them.
> 
> I think that everyone who's jumping all over the chance to run their super-heavies have to remember that it's still with opponent's permission. Worth noting before you start rushing to buy Baneblades with Power Field Generator Librarians giving them invulnerables and twin-linked.
> 
> Midnight


You mean the same way my opponent needs permission to use a cron flyer list or grey knight cheese list?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> You mean the same way my opponent needs permission to use a cron flyer list or grey knight cheese list?


It's even less specific than that. 40k requires permission from your opponent, and if you're a twat, you will not be granted that permission.

40k is like fucking but more productive and less messy - you need to both agree on what you want out of it and how far you're prepared to go, and if you cross those boundaries then there is a problem.

Midnight


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## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> It's even less specific than that. 40k requires permission from your opponent, and if you're a twat, you will not be granted that permission.
> 
> 40k is like fucking but more productive and less messy - you need to both agree on what you want out of it and how far you're prepared to go, and if you cross those boundaries then there is a problem.
> 
> Midnight


... I think I have been playing 40K wrong.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

lockeF said:


> ... I think I have been playing 40K wrong.


Me Too....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

lockeF said:


> ... I think I have been playing 40K wrong.


Congratulations, you're a tabletop rapist!

Midnight


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Emperors Knights said:


> this is another rule book like Death from the Skies.


Well this is exactly my point. A supplement like that is a supplement that both players agree on using before the match is set up and lists are made. It is not something that is taken for granted. There is a difference between a supplement like Black Legion and Escalation in my eyes.

Personally I would feel like a dick if I just brought a superheavy without notifying my opponent that we use escalation rules. Some clarification as to which version of 40k is played is standard sportsmanship in my book. I bet you the same will apply to tournaments etc.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Congratulations, you're a tabletop rapist!


Achievement unlocked! :yahoo:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Nordicus said:


> Personally I would feel like a dick if I just brought a superheavy without notifying my opponent that we use escalation rules. Some clarification as to which version of 40k is played is standard sportsmanship in my book. I bet you the same will apply to tournaments etc.


That what I think it will be. Personally I will be asking to use these rules on the odd occasion I want to have a game with big guns. I don't play APOC so I have no reason to buy a super heavy other than liking the model. This supplement hopefully gives me some structured way of including it in an army.

I best get my stompa out and make it fit in with my boyz!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm not entirely sure why you'd play Escalation; at the points values of most Super-Heavies, you may as well just be playing Apocalypse and have done with it.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Info from someone with "book in hand" is saying it's not an expansion ruleset, rather an add on, and things like D weapons and all the apocalypse templates are copy and pasted in. 

The offset, is a +1 for your opponent to seize (f you're using a lord of war) and a victory point per 3 hull points (or wounds) you remove from an enemy lord of war.

That's if the guy isn't lying, of course. Tomorrow we shall see.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> I'm not entirely sure why you'd play Escalation; at the points values of most Super-Heavies, you may as well just be playing Apocalypse and have done with it.
> 
> Midnight


I see this as part way to Apoc, but as you supposedly can only have a single 'Lord of War', the normal rules of 40k force selection still apply. No swarms of D weapons on each side of the table making infantry formations pointless. In fact no formations, just standard FOC selections.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

humakt said:


> I see this as part way to Apoc, but as you supposedly can only have a single 'Lord of War', the normal rules of 40k force selection still apply. No swarms of D weapons on each side of the table making infantry formations pointless. In fact no formations, just standard FOC selections.


Except Revenant Titans, which are ridiculously easy to convert from Wraithknights and should have no problems gutting 2000pts in a turn or two.

Midnight


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Nordicus said:


> Well this is exactly my point. A supplement like that is a supplement that both players agree on using before the match is set up and lists are made. It is not something that is taken for granted. There is a difference between a supplement like Black Legion and Escalation in my eyes.
> 
> Personally I would feel like a dick if I just brought a superheavy without notifying my opponent that we use escalation rules. Some clarification as to which version of 40k is played is standard sportsmanship in my book. I bet you the same will apply to tournaments etc.


Death from the skies only covered storm raven's dakka jets and I think one other.

All the other fliers were in the codex, so as an ork player am I supposed to think my opponent has to allow me to bring a flier just because it's not in the dex.


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

I don't get what is so hard to comprehend. Death from the skies was a "permission" book, it was an update to the existing rules allowing more comprehensive games. This is an update to the rules allowing more comprehensive games, sure you don't have to play with those rules but you don't have to play with any of the rules; however you should also not be telling others that they can't and should be prepared that any player has that option in local and national tournaments that aren't built around games that you can actually plan for and have to challenge your ability to overcome and adapt (and also to build a balanced list).


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Except Revenant Titans, which are ridiculously easy to convert from Wraithknights and should have no problems gutting 2000pts in a turn or two.
> 
> Midnight


I've seen Tau lists with 3 Riptides almost table someone on the first turn. So I don't see a problem other then more people will have the ability to do crazy stuff like that. But do you know what would wreck a lone Revenant Titan? 3 Hell Drakes. They have zero anti air, all of their weapons are Blasts and other things that can't hit Flyers. When everything is Overpowered, Nothing is Overpowered.

Also, if Super Heavies are now a thing, It would mean that everyone knows about them. So everyone would know that there is a chance that their opponent would bring one, so they should be prepared for it.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> I'm not entirely sure why you'd play Escalation; at the points values of most Super-Heavies, you may as well just be playing Apocalypse and have done with it.
> 
> Midnight


This, a thousand times this. I see this as just another way to get more Super Heavies off the shelves. Nothing more.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Emperors Knights said:


> however you should also not be telling others that they can't and should be prepared that any player has that option in local and national tournaments that aren't built around games that you can actually plan for and have to challenge your ability to overcome and adapt (and also to build a balanced list).


I am not telling people what they can't and can do - I do however always depend on sportsmanship, and when new rules and additions are released as stand-alones, then yes, I expect to be told what rules are in effect and what isn't. I like to actually communicate with my opponent / Tournament judge, instead of just assume things and risk having a match where one walks away angry, due to misunderstandings. As you put it yourself, I don't get what is to hard to comprehend.



Reaper45 said:


> so as an ork player am I supposed to think my opponent has to allow me to bring a flier just because it's not in the dex.


Quite frankly, then yes. If the Death from the Skies is not mentioned at all in the setup, then I expect standard rules. I always tell me opponents what codex and supplements I suggest for the match. I know it sucks for Orks as they are 5th (And I would 99,9% suggest using the supplement myself) but I do expect to get notified beforehand.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Nordicus said:


> I am not telling people what they can't and can do - I do however always depend on sportsmanship, and when new rules and additions are released as stand-alones, then yes, I expect to be told what rules are in effect and what isn't. I like to actually communicate with my opponent / Tournament judge, instead of just assume things and risk having a match where one walks away angry, due to misunderstandings. As you put it yourself, I don't get what is to hard to comprehend.
> 
> 
> Quite frankly, then yes. If the Death from the Skies is not mentioned at all in the setup, then I expect standard rules. I always tell me opponents what codex and supplements I suggest for the match. I know it sucks for Orks as they are 5th (And I would 99,9% suggest using the supplement myself) but I do expect to get notified beforehand.


That's fuckin bullshit and you know it.

So a chaos player is fully allowed to spam three OP as fuck fliers and I can't say a word, but if I want to bring three dakka jets all my opponent has to say is "Oh we're not playing with death from the skies." and there's nothing I can do about it.


You can kindly take that rule and shove it up your ass sideways. I'll bring whatever I want.

Because fuck you that's why.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

such mad. wow. very anger.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Reaper45 said:


> "Oh we're not playing with death from the skies." and there's nothing I can do about it.


That would be a dick move to say AFTER the lists are made. If you read my posts, I clearly indicate that the rules of engagement are set before the match and lists are made. If one side doesn't like it, he can choose not to participate or suggest a supplement. It's all about setting the bar where both are in alignment.

Oh and you really need to calm down.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Allow me to translate for everyone.



Reaper45 said:


> That's fuckin bullshit and you know it.
> That is bullocks and you are aware of how silly it is.
> 
> So a chaos player is fully allowed to spam three OP as fuck fliers and I can't say a word, but if I want to bring three dakka jets all my opponent has to say is "Oh we're not playing with death from the skies." and there's nothing I can do about it.
> ...





Nordicus said:


> That would be a dick move to say AFTER the lists are made. If you read my posts, I clearly indicate that the rules of engagement are set before the match and lists are made. If one side doesn't like it, he can choose not to participate or suggest a supplement. It's all about setting the bar where both are in alignment.
> 
> Oh and you really need to calm down.


To build onto what Reaper was saying, I think it kind of asinine to have to ask if I can use an Ork Dakkajet. Why should I have to tell my opponent that I am taking a Flyer before the game begins? I have never seen a Tournament that has turned away an Ork Player for having a Dakkajet, despite not using any other rule found in Death from the Skies. Now if I wanted to use any other rule from the book, I would ask. But not ever for the Dakkajet, and to think that I need to is utter non-sense.

In a Tournament setting they will probably let you know if you can use the Lords of War slot or not. In a Friendly game, if your opponent sees you pulling out a Super Heavy, and he doesn't wish to deal with one, he should kindly ask if you would be okay to not play with it this game. And if you aren't okay with not using it, A) you're kind of a prick, and B) you can just find someone who will allow you to use it.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

So I did reviews on the two new books for the curious. I know the Stronghold one is a touch off topic, but this is the only topic about either and I'm loathe to start one to just plug my writings:
Review: Stronghold Assault 
Review: Escalation

So there you go, anyone who wanted a peek at them, it has been provided, and you didn't even have to pirate it!


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Da Joka said:


> Now if I wanted to use any other rule from the book, I would ask. But not ever for the Dakkajet, and to think that I need to is utter non-sense.
> 
> In a Tournament setting they will probably let you know if you can use the Lords of War slot or not. In a Friendly game, if your opponent sees you pulling out a Super Heavy, and he doesn't wish to deal with one, he should kindly ask if you would be okay to not play with it this game. And if you aren't okay with not using it, A) you're kind of a prick, and B) you can just find someone who will allow you to use it.


I can see the logic in that and I would most likely also agree with this in any setting, regarding the Dakkajet. In regards to using something like Black Legion supplement, I always notify my opponent if I plan on using army supplements (and 4 Heldrakes is kinda a dick move regardless of how you look at it).

Your second section hits the nail on what I've been trying to say. I just preached to take that discussion before you pull it out of the bag, so to speak, so both players are aligned before the match commences.


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## revilo44 (Sep 17, 2010)

I was thinking that a plastic thunderhawk could work as escalation now allows superheavys in normal games.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> I've seen Tau lists with 3 Riptides almost table someone on the first turn. So I don't see a problem other then more people will have the ability to do crazy stuff like that. But do you know what would wreck a lone Revenant Titan? 3 Hell Drakes. They have zero anti air, all of their weapons are Blasts and other things that can't hit Flyers. When everything is Overpowered, Nothing is Overpowered.
> 
> Also, if Super Heavies are now a thing, It would mean that everyone knows about them. So everyone would know that there is a chance that their opponent would bring one, so they should be prepared for it.


Really? You get 3 Vector Strikes to try and destroy a 9 Hull Point AV12 body with a 4+ Invulnerable. Not entirely sure how you're doing that being as you can only glance it. Also, you're investing that much in Flyers which will be off table while the Revenant drops four Remove-Everything large blasts on your army every turn. Remember that Strength D weapons ignore Cover and Invulnerables, kill infantry on 2s and Explode vehicles on 2s.

In other news, the list of superheavies is a joke. Only the Thunderhawk for Marines kinda makes sense, but giving every army one option except Necrons, who can have 3, and Imperial Guard, who get 8, is kind of weird. Balance is also fucked - yeah, I'd totally prefer a Harridan to a Revenant Titan. Wait, sorry, I forgot that the Revenant was so broken it's not even funny and the Harridan is a joke unit that Forge World doesn't expect anyone to ever actually use.

Midnight


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Read the books yesterday and Zion's Reviews this morning.
I think he's got them pretty spot on.


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

As the Baneblade and Stompa are in plastic and easily accessible, I foresee a lot of IG and Orks in the future. Sucks that everybody else gets penalized with FW prices if they want to participate IN THIS FANTASTIC BOOK YOU WANT TO RUN OUT AND BUY RIGHT NOW!!!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

d3m01iti0n said:


> As the Baneblade and Stompa are in plastic and easily accessible, I foresee a lot of IG and Orks in the future. Sucks that everybody else gets penalized with FW prices if they want to participate IN THIS FANTASTIC BOOK YOU WANT TO RUN OUT AND BUY RIGHT NOW!!!


Yes, but conversely, the power levels increase. Revenant Titans are £190, but look about a million times nicer than the plastic kits as well as being considerably bigger, and are about a million times more powerful than a Stompa or Baneblade. Lord of Skulls is in plastic. Thunderhawk is fairly easy to build from scratch, if we're honest, and I don't know why you'd ever want to bring one anyway so moot point. Harridans are the only thing that don't fit in, being both expensive as shit and just generally shit, but I don't think Tyranid players really care by this point; they can't have Stronghold Assault, Allies, Formations or Inquisition, so why would they get Escalation?

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> In other news, the list of superheavies is a joke. Only the Thunderhawk for Marines kinda makes sense, but giving every army one option except Necrons, who can have 3, and Imperial Guard, who get 8, is kind of weird. Balance is also fucked - yeah, I'd totally prefer a Harridan to a Revenant Titan. Wait, sorry, I forgot that the Revenant was so broken it's not even funny and the Harridan is a joke unit that Forge World doesn't expect anyone to ever actually use.
> 
> Midnight


You'll notice every army that got access to multiples actually has those options in plastic.

I did write FW and ask if they were going to be releasing a list of additional Lords of War we could use in Escalation.

Outside of that, house rule with some friends if you really want that Warhound.



Pssyche said:


> Read the books yesterday and Zion's Reviews this morning.
> I think he's got them pretty spot on.


Thanks! It's always nice to show I'm not just talking out of my backside.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Zion said:


> You'll notice every army that got access to multiples actually has those options in plastic.


Yeah, which is kind of annoying. Necrons, Chaos and Imperial Guard all have the same number of plastic super heavy kits, but Guard have eight super-heavies, Necrons have three and Chaos has one to share between two armies.

I think that having 10 Deathwing Terminators with Belial and an Interrogator Chaplain coming out of a Thunderhawk kicks all of the ass, but I'd feel kind of sad with a Tiger Shark or Harridan because it's neither thematic or good. Nor would I like Eldar's choice, because I think that Titans only look good when alongside a huge army. Having 1000pts of dudes and then also a Titan fighting a 2000pt army looks so weird. It also grates against my fluffy bunny half; why would a Titan be sent against a 2000pt army? That's a tiny engagement, and it's probably not even worth mobilising the Titan to do it.

Midnight


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, which is kind of annoying. Necrons, Chaos and Imperial Guard all have the same number of plastic super heavy kits, but Guard have eight super-heavies, Necrons have three and Chaos has one to share between two armies.


Whilst it is annoying that, for example, my Eldar get one Lord of War compared to the Imperial Guard who get eight, imagine the uproar there would have been if they were only allowed access to one of the Baneblade variants they have access to.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Pssyche said:


> Whilst it is annoying that, for example, my Eldar get one Lord of War compared to the Imperial Guard who get eight, imagine the uproar there would have been if they were only allowed access to one of the Baneblade variants they have access to.


Fair point. Meanwhile, all the super-heavies people actually HAVE (I have never seen a Harridan, but it seems like every Nid player and their mum has a Heirodule) are not allowed either, so I don't think it would be too outrageous to give IG access to the Baneblade only or some such.

Midnight


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

With the Baneblade, for example, having eight different variants to build from the one kit, which do you allow? 
Assuming, for arguement's sake, that Imperial Guard players have built them with an even distribution of each type, that means you've just excluded 87.5% of the Baneblades owned by people.
I'm cool with all the variants of each kit being available to the respective owners of the plastic kits. 
Good luck to them.
They might need it if they're facing my Revenant Titan "Angel of Vengeance".


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Pssyche said:


> Whilst it is annoying that, for example, my Eldar get one Lord of War compared to the Imperial Guard who get eight, imagine the uproar there would have been if they were only allowed access to one of the Baneblade variants they have access to.


My Sisters get 0 on the otherhand meaning if I want a Lord of War I definitely need to work out something with my opponent in advance.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Zion said:


> My Sisters get 0 on the otherhand meaning if I want a Lord of War I definitely need to work out something with my opponent in advance.





Zion said:


> My Sisters get 0.





Zion said:


> Sisters


Who are they? 

Midnight


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Whilst I should consider myself lucky that my faction, Eldar, have gotten the Community's highest rated Lord of War in the Revenant Titan, I would like the option to field one of my Lynxes, Scorpion or Cobra in place of it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

In which case...

Play Apocalypse!

This is the reason I don't get Escalation. It's Apocalypse sans assets. That sucks.

Midnight


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I do play Apocalypse.
It's my favourite style of 40K.
Not everybody has the ability to field good sized Apocalypse armies nor the time to expend playing a good sized game.
This lso far looks like a good middleground.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Really? You get 3 Vector Strikes to try and destroy a 9 Hull Point AV12 body with a 4+ Invulnerable. Not entirely sure how you're doing that being as you can only glance it. Also, you're investing that much in Flyers which will be off table while the Revenant drops four Remove-Everything large blasts on your army every turn. Remember that Strength D weapons ignore Cover and Invulnerables, kill infantry on 2s and Explode vehicles on 2s.


For starters Heldrakes Vector Strike at S7, so they can in fact pen it. Secondly, even though it gets 4 Large Blasts, it can only shoot at two different units a turn. Thirdly last time I check the 3 Heldrakes where about half the point price of one Revenant. And fourly, maybe you go all crazy like, and have one of your Heldrakes keep it's Hades Autocannon and after your done Vector Striking it you shoot it in its rear armor of 10 with your S8 Weapon. 

Or how about taking that cool new Void Shield Generator form the Stronghold Assault book, I don't know all the rules (just a summary of what someone on Facebook told me), but it sounds like it could stop Destroyer weapons. But I am sure you will have a perfect answer to counter them.

Although causing people to adapt new tactics and think outside the box to deal with new problems isn't such a bad thing. The more options that are open to people the more tactics that will open up, and the more counter-tactics will be born.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Zion said:


> So I did reviews on the two new books for the curious. I know the Stronghold one is a touch off topic, but this is the only topic about either and I'm loathe to start one to just plug my writings:
> Review: Stronghold Assault
> Review: Escalation
> 
> So there you go, anyone who wanted a peek at them, it has been provided, and you didn't even have to pirate it!


Perfect Zion, that's the post I started the thread to get :wink:

Thank You!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> For starters Heldrakes Vector Strike at S7, so they can in fact pen it.


Yeah, you can pen it, but you can't do any more than take down some of it's 9 Hull Points as there is no damage chart for Super-Heavy Vehicles. 



Da Joka said:


> Secondly, even though it gets 4 Large Blasts, it can only shoot at two different units a turn.


Yes, it only gets two targets per turn, but it deletes things dead and doesn't really care about what defences said things have. If you have two vehicles near each other, they're dead too. A Revenant will suck against a horde of Cultists, but has no troubles wiping out 10 Terminators in a turn, or 20 CSM, or two Land Raiders, or your entire HQ selection.



Da Joka said:


> Thirdly last time I check the 3 Heldrakes where about half the point price of one Revenant. And fourly, maybe you go all crazy like, and have one of your Heldrakes keep it's Hades Autocannon and after your done Vector Striking it you shoot it in its rear armor of 10 with your S8 Weapon.


Three Heldrakes are indeed cheaper, good point there. Shooting a Revenant in the rear armour is never going to realistically happen as on a 6x4 board it has no reason to move off it's board edge. Just sits there and shoots Pulsars and moves laterally to avoid Meltas, using the board edge to protect it's ass.



Da Joka said:


> Or how about taking that cool new Void Shield Generator form the Stronghold Assault book, I don't know all the rules (just a summary of what someone on Facebook told me), but it sounds like it could stop Destroyer weapons. But I am sure you will have a perfect answer to counter them.


It would buy you a turn of reprieve, yes, but in the battle of AV12 vs. Strength D, I think we know which one comes out on top.



Da Joka said:


> Although causing people to adapt new tactics and think outside the box to deal with new problems isn't such a bad thing. The more options that are open to people the more tactics that will open up, and the more counter-tactics will be born.


Is there though? Is there a point where there are so many things in the game that you cannot account for all of them when building an army? Because now any given list needs to be able to deal with infantry hordes, MEQ, TEQ, Scoring, vehicles, Flyers, Monstrous Creatures (T8 Wraithknights and Harridans as well as 2+ save Riptides), Fortifications and Super-Heavies and that's not even naming everything in the game (let ALONE flying Super-Heavies - the Thunderhawk just pulls models off the table, and if you thought the Heldrake was tough...).

Midnight


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

So Instant Death, 2+ Explode, 2+ Wound, Ignore any type of save... Yikes. Sounds like the only counter is to hug board edges to nullify blasts and use flyers-also to avoid blasts- Cause anything sitting on the ground is toast. Although I guess staying out of sight also works, so long as the D weapon isnt also Barrage (which I'm assuming happens in some cases). Other than that, are there any other counters, other than to go Super-Heavy?

Edit: Also, am I reading that right Midnight? The worst damage a non-Strength D weapon can hope to achieve against a Super-Heavy is the removal of a Hull Point?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Routine said:


> So Instant Death, 2+ Explode, 2+ Wound, Ignore any type of save... Yikes. Sounds like the only counter is to hug board edges to nullify blasts and use flyers-also to avoid blasts- Cause anything sitting on the ground is toast. Although I guess staying out of sight also works, so long as the D weapon isnt also Barrage (which I'm assuming happens in some cases). Other than that, are there any other counters, other than to go Super-Heavy?
> 
> Edit: Also, am I reading that right Midnight? The worst damage a non-Strength D weapon can hope to achieve against a Super-Heavy is the removal of a Hull Point?


So heldrakes are nerfed to oblivion courtesy of a super heavy.

I'm fine with that.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Who are they?
> 
> Midnight


Sometimes I don't even know anymore....



Pssyche said:


> Whilst I should consider myself lucky that my faction, Eldar, have gotten the Community's highest rated Lord of War in the Revenant Titan, I would like the option to field one of my Lynxes, Scorpion or Cobra in place of it.


And that's where house rules come in...and maybe FW releasing a list about additional options to play with.



MidnightSun said:


> In which case...
> 
> Play Apocalypse!
> 
> ...


FOC, allies are more tightly controlled and it doesn't require 10k+ games to play.

It's small scale Apoc I guess.



nevynxxx said:


> Perfect Zion, that's the post I started the thread to get :wink:
> 
> Thank You!


Glad to hear!

In other news, a couple things about Superheavies and D-Weapons:

You still roll on the pen chart and certain results do D3 hullpoints instead of one. Also as for D-Weapons, while they mist anything they hit, non-vehicle/Lords of War models do avoid death if it rolls a 1. One of the Warlord Traits turns that into a 1 or a 2. So it's not automatic, rolls still have to happen. And while D-Weapons ignore cover, they don't ignore TLOS.


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