# Alpharius VS. Horus (pre hh)



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

*Alpharius & Omegron VS. Horus (pre hh)*

Alpharius and horus engage one another in combat, the fight takes place in the bridge of a battleship. Alpharius was sent by the emperor to kill horus for some reason or another.

Alpharius makes it to the bridge where he engages horus in combat to the death. The rest of the ship is occupied with alpha legion vs sons of horus soldiers.

Each primarch gets their armor, and weapons, as well as accesories of preference.

They start at opposite ends of the bridge room.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Lux said:


> Alpharius and horus engage one another in combat, the fight takes place in the bridge of a battleship. Alpharius was sent by the emperor to kill horus for some reason or another.
> 
> Alpharius makes it to the bridge where he engages horus in one vs one combat to the death. The rest of the ship is occupied with alpha legion vs sons of horus soldiers.
> 
> ...


Good, good for them


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

That's wonderful...Horus needs a workout, pity it'll entail pulverising his brother.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Is there suppose to be a question here?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well...I gues horus is a badass in the combat department...I always viewed horus as average in all stats, and what made him special was that he was balanced in all stats and used them in conjunction with one another rather then just relying on one strength.

That and I thought since alpharius could dodge bolter fire from horus he was faster then him....


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I like to think that Alpharius had amongst the fastest reflexes of the Primarchs because he could dodge Bolt Shells to a degree but then again we never find out if the other Primarchs could do so as well. 

In _Raven Flight_ Corax is of the opinion that against a rampaging Angron only Horus or Sanguinius could possibly defeat the Lord of the World Eaters- that certainly suggest Horus Lupercal was an extraordinary close combatant even by Primarch standards.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Except he was beaten by both sang and Russ in duels I believe.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

That's some thing I would like to talk about, and hear your thoughts on it....

In that book corax states he believes only horus or sang could possibly defeat angron....yet in another source horus himself states he views three above him in the arts of combat due to never being able to best them. It was taking about how horus had trained every primarch in the theatre of war, except kurze and that of all those he trained only 3 (or was it four?) Bested him in combat, sang, russ, angron? And I forget the fourth if there was a fourth. Also have to keep in mind kurze/haunter may have been better then horus as well in combat but states he never trained him so don't know....

And....dorn states the only primarch which has ever bested him in combat was kurze and that is why he fears him...not horus or anyone else...

My point being, that the role of best combatant, and so forth was different to every primarch, dependent upon their perception and paradigm.

Which is why I think alpharius could kill horus with speed and reflex.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Speed is nice but Horus has a one up on him in size and strength and we can't assume that his reflexes were slower since we have nothing to base that on.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

For the reflexs....it was horus who with his own gun was shooting at alpharius, and alpharius in turn was dodging his bullets as he made his way towards horus to get in melee range of him to dispatch presumably.

This took place when alpharius and his group of followers boarded horus ship and made their way to the bridge...horus immediatey put rounds through his followers heads, but alpharius dodged and made his way to horus even as horus continued to fire at alpharius.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

yes but Horus proly thought Alpharius a regular human not even on the level of a space marine let alone a brother primarch.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And it was only the 1st shot that Alpharius dodged, the rest hit him.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

With Alpharius only being half of a whole, wouldn't that put him at a disadvantage? The 'two bodies, one soul' thing; does it affect him physically, making him and his brother less strong than the other Primarchs, or are the twins exactly as powerful as the others, just with the soul thing going on?

Isn't Alpharius the smallest of the Primarchs? Then there is also the fact that he is all about subterfuge and deception. He always tried to put his enemies off-balance, to grab their attention and then hit them from an unexpected angle, reducing their effectivness. In a straight-up, knock-down, drag-out fight with someone bigger than him, and just as Primarch-y, then I reckon he would come off worst. However, if Alpharius is grabbing Horus' attention whilst Omegon sneaks up behind, then we might get more of a fair fight that the twins could win.

GFP


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The rest hit him? I've heard their is multiple sourcess stating differing events in regards to that. One says he dodged all while another states he dodged only the first?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This Fight is a poor mismatch since Alpha Legions Primarch is Alpharius and Omegon.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Index Astartes says he dodged the first and waded through the fire of the rest.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

This is a poor match up by any standards. Its often cited the best one on one combatants between the Primarchs are Sanguineous, Angron, Horus and maybe Russ. Alphaerious might be able to dodge a Bolter shot but that is not going to help him against Horus in and great way. 

Aramoro


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree that for a match worth watching it'd have to be Alpharius and Omegon vs Horus. They are both Primarch of the Alpha Legion, so in a Primarch vs Primarch fight, they should both be there. 

The Alpha Legion, and their Primarch(s) modus operandi were covert ops and subterfuge, in a straight up fight they were very likely to be at a disadvantage, especially against an opponent who is widely considered to be one the best close combat practitioners amongst the Primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> For the reflexs....it was horus who with his own gun was shooting at alpharius, and alpharius in turn was dodging his bullets as he made his way towards horus to get in melee range of him to dispatch presumably.
> 
> This took place when alpharius and his group of followers boarded horus ship and made their way to the bridge...horus immediatey put rounds through his followers heads, but alpharius dodged and made his way to horus even as horus continued to fire at alpharius.


Firstly the Index Astartes article states that he dodged the first bolt shell fired by Horus, but endured the rest. That is of course assuming that tale actually happened, it was part of the Alpha Legion's history 'uncovered' by Inquisitor Kravin, widely regarded to be a member of the Cult of the Hyrda himself, therefore its quite possible, perhaps even likely that the tale we were fed in the Index Astartes was tampered with at best, a complete fabrication at worst.

In regards to the actual duel, Horus would pulverise Alpharius if the scenario was simply a physical duel. I highly doubt Alpharius would have allowed such a thing to happen though if he was sent by the Emperor to kill Horus, he would have manipulated events to prevent him ever having to face Horus in a duel, and bring about Lupercal's demise by another method.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What if it were both alpharius and omegron?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Then probably still Horus. Alpharius and Omegron are not brilliant combatants Horus is, he's not a just a little bit better than either of them, he's a lot better than either of them.

Is this going to go like your Nightlords thread, what if it was Both of them and Horus had no weapons, and no armour, and he was already dead....


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

Horus would wtfpwn Alpharius, dropping him in a single volley of bolter fire. As he stepped forwards to check the corpse, though, his ship's pilot would backstab him, revealing that Horus had just killed Random Legionnaire #224, and that Alpharius was behind him the whole time.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The nightlords thread was rather enjoyable, and I never stated in that thread anything of the likeness you are insinuatingk:

In regards to horus, I don't view him as being a top tier combatant. In his own view he views four above him, as well as of unsure where to ran kurze, potentially five.

Same with how corax views certain others above him, differing from horus opinion, same with dorn as well and so forth.

I think alpha+omeg could take horus....in a similar fashion as the above poster described, would be a random legionare he kills...and later he would be speaking with abadon, and then he feels a bolter through his skull, as he finds out, abaddon, and his top ranking officials were alpharius, omegron and alpha legionaires the whole time.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm fairly sure that Horus, a very perceptive character, would be able to pick wether or not the bloke running at him is a fellow Primarch or not. Even if this attacker moves and carries themselves like a Primarch would, even if, should they get into CQC, they fight as hard and as skillfully as a Primarch, the whole psychic aura would be missing.

We know that all of the Primarchs had a huge warp-aura, just look at Russ. When Primarchs fight it isn't just a physical combat, but a fight that takes place in the warp as well and wether it is unconcious or not, I'm certain that the Primarchs would be able to feel this; this means that Alpharius wouldn't be able to hide in plain sight, hs warp-aura giving him away to the greatest of the Primarchs.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Well if the Battle of Eskrador account is to be believed, and the heavy amounts of speculation along with it, then Guilliman mistook a normal Captain/Alpha Astartes for Alpharius. Or of course it may have been Omegon, but I find it more likely to have been a generic Astartes, considering the apparent ease with which Guilliman took the individual down.

The Alpha Legion are masters of secrecy, there were obviously ways to prevent people discovering Omegon being a Primarch, probably infront of other Primarchs even - I would say its quite possible for the Alpha Legion to hide and misdirect others as to the location and indentity of their Primarch(s).


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

brute force and stregnth, tactics and whatever else horus wins hands down, but when it comes to misdirecrtion, disinformation, cunning, guile and subterfuge...Alpharius and Omegon hands down,


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think horus would be able to detect if its truly alpharius/omegron or not. If accounts of the ultramarines battle are true as stated by above poster, then the um primarch didn't detect anything either. And horus having never displayed any psyker abilities, I doubt would be able to perceive and or feel their warp signatures as you suggest. Only magnus has been shown to do this of the primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually, it would seem to me that papa smurf knew that he wasn't fighting a primarch the moment he entered combat. No matter how good a sm is they will never stack up to a primarch. Also, no one could confuse alpharius with Abby if a normal sm could pose as him. Abby is an enormous man. I doubt that would ever happen. If they had the ability to do that it would stand to reason that they would have used their prodigious skills to assassinate one of the loyal primarchs.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Actually, it would seem to me that papa smurf knew that he wasn't fighting a primarch the moment he entered combat. No matter how good a sm is they will never stack up to a primarch. Also, no one could confuse alpharius with Abby if a normal sm could pose as him. Abby is an enormous man. I doubt that would ever happen. If they had the ability to do that it would stand to reason that they would have used their prodigious skills to assassinate one of the loyal primarchs.


There is no where to draw this conclusion from, no where in the books is it written the UM primarch knew or suspected it wasn't Alpharius whom he believed he had killed.

On the otherhand the UM's only suspected the story could be a lie, once they found out the source they had gathered the information from was a possible hydra cultist.

However back to the topic at hand, the only primarch which has ever been noted to see the warp signatures of his fellow primarchs was Magnus due to his innate and highly refined Warp skills and powers. Has Horus ever been noted for warp based abilities or perception? For precognitive, receiving visions, seeing the future? No. To say Horus would know, or suspect it is not alpharius or omegron is purely speculation. If Gulli couldn't tell, then I very much doubt Horus would be able to tell, on top of this it is highly plausible that a top ranking SM would be able to pose as a primarch especially in the place of Alpharius/omegron as they were noted as being of the stature of a tall Space Marine. 

Why do I state this? Because the Custodes guard were commented on being that if one of them ever fought a primarch, that the outcome of the match would be anyones guess. From this alone it shows it is possible for a non primarch being to kill a primarch in combat, and at the very least and even more plausible to pose as one in combat and allowed ones self to be killed.

Now with this done, Horus leaves the battle with the false belief of victory, and he was prone to victory disease. While this battle was happening, alpharius and Omegron assassinate Abaddon wherever he may be, and take his place in his massive terminator armor (for abbadon was extremely large and tall for a sm which would fit for ALpharius/omegron who were of more slender stature for that of a primarch). They pose as him, and kill Horus when he least suspects it, while posing as his top ranking officials.

Now if the twins could do this why didn't they do it during the war? I imagine it has some thing to do with that they were fighting for the emperor the whole time (so it is to be believed), and in all likelyhood wanted to cause the least ammount of bloodshed of their fellow brothers as possible, so killing a fellow loyal primarch would be some thing they would not want to do and prevent.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually the UM don't believe that he is dead. Or at the very least they find it to be unlikely. 
A custodius would be no match for a primarch in close combat.

There is no proof they were ever fighting for the emperor, in fact they openly engaged loyalists. The only reason to believe they were fighting for the emperor is that they are sneaky bastards.

Did he say psychic perception? No, he just said he was perceptive. If I say my friend is perceptive do I mean he is a psychic? Hell no I do not. I mean he is particularly adept at noticing the small detail. Fact of the matter is it would be stupid to try and impersonate Abaddon , he rarely wore a helm and Horus would notice the second he got close to him that it wasn’t Abby. Better to impersonate a lesser member of the legion to avoid the obvious risk of Horus noticing that he isn’t one of his oldest and closest advisors.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lux said:


> Why do I state this? Because the Custodes guard were commented on being that if one of them ever fought a primarch, that the outcome of the match would be anyones guess. From this alone it shows it is possible for a non primarch being to kill a primarch in combat, and at the very least and even more plausible to pose as one in combat and allowed ones self to be killed.


Actually the Custodian noted that the outcome of a fight between an Astartes and a Custodes would be anyone's guess- don't alter reference material to support your own argument.

We know Primarchs can be killed by non-Primarchs, thats how Rogal Dorn died after all.


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

we all know in our hearts that Lorgar owns all of them, so why does it matter if horus or alpharius is better?!:biggrin::biggrin::laugh:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the Custodian noted that the outcome of a fight between an Astartes and a Custodes would be anyone's guess- don't alter reference material to support your own argument.
> 
> We know Primarchs can be killed by non-Primarchs, thats how Rogal Dorn died after all.


That is what I put.....that the custodes stated it would be anyone's guess....it is not altering reference material to support my argument, it is using reference material to support my stance.

Or did I misquote it? Was it not along the lines of "a fight between a primarch and a custodes would be anyone's guess"? Because that is what I put...


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Actually the UM don't believe that he is dead. Or at the very least they find it to be unlikely.
> A custodius would be no match for a primarch in close combat.
> 
> There is no proof they were ever fighting for the emperor, in fact they openly engaged loyalists. The only reason to believe they were fighting for the emperor is that they are sneaky bastards.
> ...



.....Psychic perception I stated in particular because the above previous poster a while back, who I was replying to, stated Horus would see that the Marine/s posing as Alpharius/Omegron would have no warp signature, or not the same warp signature as a primarch. That is why I said psychic perception, and gave the comments about how only Magnus has been noted to perceive those effects.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I though you were referring to someone who stated that he was perceptive, don’t remember the name. And you did change reference material. BTW and astartes isnt a Primarch.... its a sm.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

How did I change the material no one has yet to explain this? I stated that a custodes commented that in a fight with a primarch between a custodes and a primarch the victor would be anyone's guess.

my previous post quoted in regards to this section was this "Why do I state this? Because the Custodes guard were commented on being that if one of them ever fought a primarch, that the outcome of the match would be anyones guess. From this alone it shows it is possible for a non primarch being to kill a primarch in combat, and at the very least and even more plausible to pose as one in combat and allowed ones self to be killed."

How and in what way did I change the material? Is anyone going to explain this? I never said a Space Marine is a custodes, no. What I said was, that from this alone (referencing to that the outcome of a custodes <---a non primarch being, and a primarch, is anyone's guess) shows that a non primarch being, in the example a custodes, is able to kill a primarch. Thus it is within possibility and plausibility for a high ranking Space Marine, to kill a primarch.

Now tell me, in what way did I change the material? Because I in sum just quoted my previous post.

*EDIT*
Oh, or is it that the material said a Custodes and an Astartes, is anyones guess? I thought it said a Custodes and a primarch is anyones guess, is that what you are talking about?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lux said:


> *EDIT*
> Oh, or is it that the material said a Custodes and an Astartes, is anyones guess? I thought it said a Custodes and a primarch is anyones guess, is that what you are talking about?


Yes.

2 Custodians are willing to fight Dorn but it's not stated whether they'd have a chance or not, Dorn just says he'd hurt them both.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Because, as the good Baron said, the quote was referring to a battle between a SM and a Custodius 

EDIT: Didn't catch the edit. lol all fixed.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I appologize, I thought the quote was talking about a custodes and a primarch, my mistake.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's ok, its not like your the first person to make that mistake and we'd all love for the Custodians to be the true badasses of 40k :grin:


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

As far as Alpharius vs. Horus, wouldn't Horus win due to the whole "I'm THE Chaos Champion" thing......you know....the one that forced the Emperor into his current state-of-the-art lazyboy?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

(pre hh) its in the title dude.


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## popeyethesailor (Jun 28, 2010)

Horus thinks 4 are better then him so that makes him not a great combatant. using that reasoning russ thinks hes the best so he can beat all primarchs in fights


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