# Grey Knights vs Blood Angels (a summary)



## FeralJim (Mar 15, 2011)

Hey guys, 

I'm a Blood Angels player. Been running them now for about a year. Love the colour red, love the look of the models. I'm also really competitive (not WAAC with my friends but I like to do tourneys). 

The thing is, BA don't make for a great Assault army. Most of their top-tier stuff is hidden in variations of Razorspam (Flamers, Asscan or Las/Plas) or a horde of 50+ ASM with FNP, melta, fists and Devastators bringing up the rear. The former plays pretty good on the tabletop. You get cheap Fast vehicles with good weapon load-outs. Maybe some Typhoons, MM Bikes, AC/LC Preds or Devs mixed in. The latter has a lot of problems against real Assault armies. People who have things like DCA, TH/SS, Wyches, Stealers etc. Many of those don't have grenades or are slow, but when your shooting is only 20% of your army then you have to close with the enemy or you lose. Fighting those at the same initiative also makes you lose. 

So they have some bad matchups. Luckily Tyranids aren't overly played in the competitive scene but Dark Eldar, Dual Raider lists (especially now with all the S7 spam) and GK *are*. 

The thing that really cripples BA is that their dedicated Assault Units are garbage. SangGuard are terrible, and so are Death Company. It's a real shame. They also have no cheap cannon-fodder units to tie up or block enemy power houses from reaching combat. This is also a big deal. All they have are ASM and if you want to run raiders or ravens, TH/SS. I shouldn't have to pay a 250 point tax to use my only good Assault unit, Tyranids don't do it, Orks don't do it, Dark Eldar don't do it, neither do GK. This is bad for list variation. 

So I've started taking a look at the Grey Knights codex. Seeing just what kind of lists they can field for fun, and what they can field that's good. *(I know, I know, I'm a bit late to the party)* 

At first I was going through Army Builder, and they seemed pretty good. Dreadknights are better than Furioso's against most of the stuff you will fight, and they are cheaper to get into combat. Grand Masters and Librarians both seem like solid HQs. With a bit of fun, strong stuff mixed around. Grenades are amazing. So is hammerhand. 

Strike squads aren't mind-blowing, but I did some math on a 205 Strike Squad with a Passback, two Psycannons fighting a 180 ASM Squad with Assback, two melta. At 24" shooting GK win, under 12" GK win, in melee GK win. Wounding an MC, GK win. Penetrating a Land Raider under 6" GK win. Shooting down a horde? well, you guessed it. 

This is a unit that, in the context of the GK codex, it's not really that great. I don't see many people running around with lots of Strike Squads the way BA do ASM. It's still amazing in comparison though. 

Paladins? 15 points for WS5 and +1 wound when your regular GKT are already getting the best of both worlds between Terminators/TH/SS. Yeah I'll take a side of those thanks. Add the Librarian for a 3++ in shooting and I6 Force Weapons in melee. Good luck stopping them. 

Riflemen? 5 points for S8?! feth me dead. 

Then I came across Purifiers, and my jaw dropped. 8 points more than an ASM gets you Halberds, Storm Bolters, Cleansing Flame and half-price Psycannons (which negates their expensive cost in the first place). So they beat nearly everything in combat. Anything they can't beat they can easily shoot off the table. Their only weakness is that they are a 26 point model with T4 and 3+, but SangGuard are 40 points 2+, and have no anti-horde, no-anti MC and no shooting. This is what a good elite unit looks like. Dialed up to 11. You can even make a Deathstar of them when you add in Grenades, Shrouding, Might of Titan and Sanctuary. 

So by now I'm thinking. Damn. GK gak is pretty expensive, but it's also pretty amazing. They are what all marines claim to be. *true* generalists. Good in combat. Good at shooting. Your enemy is always going to be able to capitalize on your low model count, but you should have the flexibility and firepower to work around it. 

_Then I found that little, tiny entry hidden in Army Builder, the one that unlocks 15 point Stormshields, 15 points for WS5, I6 S4 3 power weapon attacks, 12 points for a scoring troops choice unit. 10 point Multi-Meltas and 20 point Plasma Cannons. I could not fething believe it. Every weakness I had discovered in the GK just went out the window. 24 points to fill your troops choices? Start stacking Purifiers, Rifledreads and Paladins. Even in small games. Don't like Paladins? 5 Death Cult Assassins with 7 Acolytes set's you back 105 points and kills 9 marines on the charge._ 

Now for anyone reading that, I think it should be pretty clear in how I've written this that I am by no means impressed with the GK codex. It *seems* at face-value to break the game and stamp on it. 

As a Blood Angels player, what do we have to compete with all this? I often read about folks putting BA up near the top of the totem pole. Next to IG, DE, Wolves and GK. I just don't see it. All of those books have a couple really incredible units that are very well-costed. Long Fangs, Hunters, TWC >>> Manticores/Hydras/Vendettas/Vets >>> Venom Spam, Wyches, HQs, Trueborn >>> Everything. 

I guess what I'm saying is, I seem to have lost my love for the Angels somewhere along the way of discovering the Grey Knights. I'd love for someone to come in here and tell me I'm wrong, shoot me a couple amazing units that BA have or can do that no one else can (AV13 walls I guess, 12 Land Raiders, 9 Dreadnoughts etc.) How do they fight off a really good, cheesy GK list?


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Rock-paper-scissors.

Blood Angels Assault armies are pretty good, IMO. An Assault Squad with meltas, a Priest, and PF Sarge will tear through vehicles and most other units. 

Except...Grey Knights. Blood Angels have trouble with TEq. You could always load up an Honor Guard with plasma, but range is still the biggest problem. 

Of course, a long-range shooty army will wipe out say, a Draigo-wing in short order. GK have weaknesses as well, but they do match up favorably against the popular meta builds. 

And of course they look awesome...GW wants you to go out and buy a bunch of them.


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## FeralJim (Mar 15, 2011)

ohiocat110 said:


> Rock-paper-scissors.
> 
> GK have weaknesses as well, but they do match up favorably against the popular meta builds.
> 
> And of course they look awesome...GW wants you to go out and buy a bunch of them.


I think that's a fair assessment of GK at the moment Ohiocat. Right now, this moment. They seem unstoppable. Maybe that will change. 6th edition is meant to drop in June.

I fully expect it to nerf melta, transports, and shooting. I expect to see more infantry, more monstrous creatures and more combat. 

Ironically though that would be a pretty big blow to the current Blood Angels armies and it's one GK could take and adapt to pretty easily. *shrug*

I actually think Sanguinary Guard are easily the best looking models GW have ever made, for any system. But something obviously went wrong in their player testing because they are pretty terrible. Not quite Pyrovore bad but when compared with Death Cult Assassins, well... they don't look good in that light. I suspect SG were S6 originally. The fluff text and the model for Glaive Encarmines make them seem like they were meant to be amazing. Relic-Blades 2.0. Currently though you swap out 1 attack for ... 1 re-roll? your joking?


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## FeralJim (Mar 15, 2011)

Wow, how has no one else replied yet? I posted this on Dakka and B/C and both threads are well into 3 pages now. Is Heresy just ... dead?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, this IS the deadest time of the week for the more level-headed people here compared to Dakka.

Regardless - BA are just as good as GKs. So what, they have Psybolts, Halberds, Fortitude... We have Fast vehicles with a 35 point discount, and actual ranged firepower outside our HS section (and AutoLas Preds eat Psyflemen for breakfast.)

Different? Yes, very much. Harder to use? Perhaps. Easier to fuck up your army list? Sure - Death Company are bizarrely popular when they're absolutely abysmal, as you identify.

Simple thing is though - GKs are expensive, and can't afford all the stuff they want. Even if I agreed everything was just plain better, it's still more expensive, and so there's less of it. I'll take more guns over fewer, any time.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, this IS the deadest time of the week for the more level-headed people here compared to Dakka.
> 
> Regardless - BA are just as good as GKs. So what, they have Psybolts, Halberds, Fortitude... We have Fast vehicles with a 35 point discount, and actual ranged firepower outside our HS section (and AutoLas Preds eat Psyflemen for breakfast.)
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. The speed and numbers of BA can easily give GK a run for their money if you know how to use it.

BA players have plenty of useful tools to go around. It seems to me all you really need to do is start experimenting some more.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

GK might seem to have every tool. But remember, they are just marines and die just as quickly. As a DE player, enough venoms will bring any number of them down, FNP helps negate cleansing flame, and I6 negates the halberds. 

As a BA player there are also many advantages, better storm raven, fnp on marines (negating small arms fire) and good psychic powers and defense. 

Also, blood talons... yummy.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Simple thing is though - GKs are expensive, and can't afford all the stuff they want.


It must really be nice to have a codex SO awesome that your biggest problem is you have to pick between awesome things because you cant afford all the awesome things. (awesome).

The one thing keeping me from going bonkers when I think about GKs is 6th on the horizon and I really, really hope the rapid fire change goes through. While GK will still have a very strong 24' presence, they wont be head and shoulders above every other army in the game.


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## GreaterDragon (Oct 27, 2011)

Well, people seem to think the GK codex is beyond broken in my area. 
We always play "friendly" games around here, no spamming units and generally running "uncompetitive" lists by tournament standards. I feel bad just bringing them to the table because I know someone is going to complain, but it's my favorite army as far as the models go. I have resorted to bringing the worse options in the book and even if I get a draw in a game everyone believes they "narrowly" succeeded in stoping the onslaught.

Bottom line, most people on the internet seem to think the GK are okay, as far as tournaments go but I think the codex does not lend itself to friendly games easily.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

GreaterDragon said:


> Well, people seem to think the GK codex is beyond broken in my area.
> We always play "friendly" games around here, no spamming units and generally running "uncompetitive" lists by tournament standards. I feel bad just bringing them to the table because I know someone is going to complain, but it's my favorite army as far as the models go. I have resorted to bringing the worse options in the book and even if I get a draw in a game everyone believes they "narrowly" succeeded in stoping the onslaught.
> 
> Bottom line, most people on the internet seem to think the GK are okay, as far as tournaments go but I think the codex does not lend itself to friendly games easily.


See, this is upsetting. A player shouldnt be chastised for the army he likes. Models, appearence, fluff, etc all draw a person to an army. GK are beatable, they just have an undenyable advantage over most armies. But it's how solid of an army they are that makes the general consensus believe they're 'broken' and 'overpowered', it's one of the reasons I didnt start a GK army too. I thought the models looked fantastic, and Ive always wanted to paint using whites (playing chaos and daemons it doesnt really come up all too often). It must be really frustrating for a player just trying to get a few games in and people turing up their noses (without even trying) just because of what they read on the internet. I've silently observed a few games with GK at my local club, and it never fails that the person playing against the GK makes snide remarks as he's getting the pants beat off him about imbalance and etc. It must really take away from the victory for the GK player.

At least my hatred for them comes from about half a dozen attempts vs. them with chaos daemons, only to fall flat on my face. No seriously, it wasn't even close.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> It must really be nice to have a codex SO awesome that your biggest problem is you have to pick between awesome things because you cant afford all the awesome things. (awesome).
> 
> The one thing keeping me from going bonkers when I think about GKs is 6th on the horizon and I really, really hope the rapid fire change goes through. While GK will still have a very strong 24' presence, they wont be head and shoulders above every other army in the game.


Only, they aren't head and shoulders above every army in the game by any means.

You think they're so unbeatable, post a list, link it. Hopefully when I either tear it down or demonstrate it's on par with solid BA, SM, SW, IG and DE builds, you'll realise.

Are GKs better than the 4e books? Of COURSE they are! They're a 5e book - that means they're better at 5e than 4e books. Expecting otherwise is madness.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Only, they aren't head and shoulders above every army in the game by any means.
> 
> You think they're so unbeatable, post a list, link it. Hopefully when I either tear it down or demonstrate it's on par with solid BA, SM, SW, IG and DE builds, you'll realise.
> 
> Are GKs better than the 4e books? Of COURSE they are! They're a 5e book - that means they're better at 5e than 4e books. Expecting otherwise is madness.


I suppose I should of made the context more obvious, my remarks are made solely from the viewpoint of a CD and CSM player and loaded heavily with sarcasm.

However I still believe that as far as stopping power at 24' there arent many armies that can hold a candle to GK


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

My apologies, I did not get that.

I agree - if you can keep an enemy at that distance with GK, you'll beat up most things (though not Eldar, usually) but BA and SW have ways to close and make you sweat - and IG just drive further away and keep shooting.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Why should I care how my snide remarks takes away from the GK Victory? Against my CSMs they dont even need to try. At all. Only DUMB LUCK can bring me victory. Fuck them and there feelings when they play the most Competitive list out there. However they snide as much when I whip out my IG.... thank you 5th Mech loving.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

You should care because it isn't the opponent's fault that your Codex is shit.

And because being a dickhead to people isn't the right approach unless they start it.


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## FeralJim (Mar 15, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Regardless - BA are just as good as GKs. So what, they have Psybolts, Halberds, Fortitude... We have Fast vehicles with a 35 point discount, and actual ranged firepower outside our HS section (and AutoLas Preds eat Psyflemen for breakfast.)
> 
> Different? Yes, very much. Harder to use? Perhaps. Easier to fuck up your army list? Sure - Death Company are bizarrely popular when they're absolutely abysmal, as you identify.
> 
> Simple thing is though - GKs are expensive, and can't afford all the stuff they want. Even if I agreed everything was just plain better, it's still more expensive, and so there's less of it. I'll take more guns over fewer, any time.


With the fast vehicles, remember that each of your marines is 3 points more. The idea being that in a 10man squad your only getting a 5 point discount. It's our ability to Razorspam that scores us (free fast with a 20 point discount). This is largely negated elsewhere though when we are paying 15-30 points for fast. GK only ever pay 5 points a piece for Fortitude and Psybolts, I really think they come out well ahead on that one.

I'm not sure I agree with you here TKE. I mean in principal I do, because when your looking at units of Grey Knights the theory goes that yeah they are better. Better at shooting, better at combat. But they don't get the option to choose between these. They HAVE to pay the points to be better at both. And obviously this is inefficient because when your in combat you can't shoot and vice versa. All of their units have this trait and so it becomes a signature weakness of the Codex. Your shit is real good, but it's expensive, you get less models and you die just as easily.


That makes sense! I like it. It's a cool idea to make an army with.

The thing is though, Henchmen blow that right out of the water. 


I am strong believer that without Halberds (which are completely retarded) and Henchmen the GK book would have been simply "good". Grenades would be deadly. Paladins and Purifiers would still be very nasty. Purifiers beat hordes, Paladins beat elite units. They are both good at shooting. Riflemen struggle to deal with AV13+. That would have been sweet and balanced. They would still have won GT's but you wouldn't have seen 8 GK GT winners in 2011.



TheKingElessar said:


> Only, they aren't head and shoulders above every army in the game by any means.
> 
> You think they're so unbeatable, post a list, link it. Hopefully when I either tear it down or demonstrate it's on par with solid BA, SM, SW, IG and DE builds, you'll realise.


Hey TKE! Before I get started, just what exactly is the difference between Bolter & Chainsword, Warseer, Dakka Dakka and Heresy Online? On all of the others the replies came really quickly and I wasn't able to spot any differences in the attitudes of the people posting. I spend most of my time over on 3plusplus and avoiding the forums, but I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the discourse that I got back (especially on Dakka and B/C). Why do you hang out here?

Right, well I'm game. 1500 Points is what I usually roll at, though I understand the balance isn't as perfect there as it is at 2000. Here is a pretty standard list.

Crowe 150
Purifier Squad (2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, MCr'd Hammer, Psybolt Assault Cannon on the RB) 234
^
^
^
Dreadnought (2 Autocannons, Psybolt ammo) 135
^
^

What do you get for your money when sitting tight and pretty? 7 vehicles, 4 scoring, 21 bodies, 16 TL S7 Asscan shots, 32 Psycannon shots, 12 TL S8 Autocannon shots and 4 pretty competent combat units (with 2 Halberds and a Hammer in each).

Let's go the other way.

Coteaz 100
Xenos double 'nade Inquisitor 55
Purifier Squad (2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, MCr'd Hammer, Psybolt Assault Cannon on the RB) 234
4 Death Cult Assassins in a Passback 145
^
4 Acolytes in a Passback 101
Dreadnought (2 Autocannons, Psybolt ammo) 135
^
^

What do you get for your money in this one? 10 vehicles, 6 scoring, 29 bodies, two cheap, strong combat units (The DCA's with Inquisitors) and a squad of Purifiers. 28 TL S7 Asscan shots, 8 Psycannon shots and 12 TL S8 Autocannon shots.

Since the thread is about BA vs GK specifically let's start with that. Both of these lists aren't tailored against BA in any way, they are just regular, tournament standard all comers lists.

Going along a similar vein what would you recommend the BA player do? Jump Infantry are going to be able to shrug off lots of that shooting with their FNP, but they won't be able to assault until their fire support has taken out 3-4 dedicated counter-assault units. I don't see that happening.

Razorspam gets the joy of trading in survivability and damage for more speed. This doesn't really help you here because they can (and will) march into the center and rip you apart.

In both cases you need to be able to either out shoot them or out assault them, good luck with either.

What's left? well, and this one works. AV13 Walls. Furioso's, naked Baals, Las/Plas Predators, all in different FOG slots and all bringing the pain on GK in combat and shooting.

The kicker here that you get one list to beat pretty much all the lists they make. So sure, you can do that, and you can start winning some games. But that's all you'll ever get.

Meanwhile that GK kid has run 6 different lists over the course of the year and had a great time winning 2/3 of his games with all of them. This is balanced how? How are they not better man?



Skari said:


> GK might seem to have every tool. But remember, they are just marines and die just as quickly. As a DE player, enough venoms will bring any number of them down, FNP helps negate cleansing flame, and I6 negates the halberds.
> 
> As a BA player there are also many advantages, better storm raven, fnp on marines (negating small arms fire) and good psychic powers and defense.
> 
> Also, blood talons... yummy.


It must be nice to be able to spam Venoms and have Wyches which beat most GK, that's something I wish BA could do! =P

I suppose BA have faster psychic defense. And it's cheaper too. I mean you can stick a GK Librarian in a Chimaeria with 5 Paladins if you want and start moving up 12" but it's not quite the same and bloody expensive.

I totally agree the BA SR is better. I'm also still not a big fan of either of them. Your paying too many points for something that *needs* to transport a unit (or two) but it's too fragile. I wouldn't want a SR carrying my 500 point Deathstar that's for sure.

I hate FNP. God do I hate it. By that I mean I hate having an army that revolves around it. When most of the ranged shots I eat are S8+ or AP2, and most of the combat hits are rending or power weapons. It just feels like I'm paying a lot of points for something that does nothing. It makes all of my marines deaths so much worse, and involves dicking around with the Priest at the back of the squad forever more. Is he within 6" when you charge? will they be able to pile in to reach him? you better hope not rofl. At least with GK grenades and Halberds the enemy isn't likely to ever get to strike back, so there is little risk of your Techmarine/Inquisitor eating the dust.

I've tried to feel my Furioso's many a time. Never works. Whether I am going with 1, 2 or 3 it's rare to have them back even half their points back. My local meta is full of Monstrous Creatures and Melta weapons. Having a vehicle that has to get in close to do it's job never seems to work.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> Why should I care how my snide remarks takes away from the GK Victory? Against my CSMs they dont even need to try. At all. Only DUMB LUCK can bring me victory. Fuck them and there feelings when they play the most Competitive list out there. However they snide as much when I whip out my IG.... thank you 5th Mech loving.


Trust me warlock, I'm in the same boat as you if not worse (CD also), but it doesn't mean you have to be an asshat the whole time you're playing. Let's face it, if you made the decision to bring and play your CSM over your IG you're already not too serious about winning, why why take the beating personally? Theres only so much you can do tactically with a bad codex vs. a damn near flawless one. If you want to put up a competative game where you don't feel like you are trying to drown a shark, as you said, just bring your mech IG k:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

FeralJim said:


> With the fast vehicles, remember that each of your marines is 3 points more. The idea being that in a 10man squad your only getting a 5 point discount. It's our ability to Razorspam that scores us (free fast with a 20 point discount). This is largely negated elsewhere though when we are paying 15-30 points for fast. GK only ever pay 5 points a piece for Fortitude and Psybolts, I really think they come out well ahead on that one.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with you here TKE. I mean in principal I do, because when your looking at units of Grey Knights the theory goes that yeah they are better. Better at shooting, better at combat. But they don't get the option to choose between these. They HAVE to pay the points to be better at both. And obviously this is inefficient because when your in combat you can't shoot and vice versa. All of their units have this trait and so it becomes a signature weakness of the Codex. Your shit is real good, but it's expensive, you get less models and you die just as easily.
> 
> ...


Ok, this may take a while...

Start at the beginning - Heresy was the first [40k] forum I joined in any meaningful sense, so there's an emotional attachment - but more than that, typically the number of stupid people is lower than Warseer, the number of FAACers is less than B&C [and I play several Xenos] and the number of jerks is less than Dakka. Obviously it's possible to never interact with any of those people on any of them - but I tend to visit pretty much every subforum at some stage, and post a lot. I run into people, feuds happen...anyway, I'm perma-banned from Warseer, much to my amusement.

So - Fortitude and Psybolts - individually, neither is better than Fast. Being Fast, on the vehicles that are worth using, grants both flexibility and the opportunities that GK vehicles would in fact love to have. Shooting a S6 gun into the sides of things is far better than the front, and S7, even more so.

More than that, it boosts the BA's capacity to keep the foe at arm's length, something GKs often need to do, especially if their army is primarily Henchmen.

Speaking of - without them, I think the GK book would have little or no longevity. Flexibility in builds is a great thing, and Henchmen are perhaps the single best example of this in any Codex. There are some nasty things they can do - like 2/3 DCA and a couple 7-point Stormbolters in a unit, or the uber-cheap Servitors... but when they die in a stiff breeze, it's hard to retain your Scoring bodies, and you can't often table a competitive army.

The fat that you usually play at 1500 points DOES change things - and the reason for this is that, in my view, the more recent Codexes aren't actually equipped to properly build for such a small game. Some can do it fairly well by accident, but I don't think there's any effort by GW to promote that level of play, contrary to certain people's rants.

Playing at 1500 creates a huge balance shift, and, yes, I feel that at that level GKs are clearly superior to BA. check out how much you can squeeze into 1k with Henchemn, and tell me that it's deliberate it worked out THAT way. 

That said - Space Wolves and IG can still easily compete with GKs at 1500. There's bound to be some BA build that can do it - honestly, I don't have much fun at 1500, and forego tournaments that play that level as I won't enjoy it.

Halberds are a stretch, and irritating, I agree - but only because Falchions only grant +1A when it should be 2.

Will return...


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## FeralJim (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies TKE. Maybe your right, it could be the 1500 points level that has been crippling me. The vast majority of my casual games (80%) are at that level. Hell we also play as low as 1000... try fielding a Jumpers BA list down therel. It's ugly.

Initiative 6 marines have been avoided in the past because I6 is what most fragile armies use to gain their advantage. When you combine it with MEQ stats and power weapons... it's not like they even pay much for this huge advantage either. That's the biggest kick in the teeth.

Which vehicles do you believe Fast is worth using on then? Fortitude is good on everything, and GK get the option of whether or not to use Psybolts.

I just can't see how people can possibly argue that the GK book isn't flat-out better than all the other codexes. Too much of the gear is too strong, for too cheap. There is no balance there.


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## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

I do play blood angels and do table GKs or close to fairly regularly... including at the FOB invitational. Iv really found that the key to taking them down quickly is units that can scout , assault there dreads, and above all FURIOSOS. 

Here is a few things that i use with BA, that i hope will help you on your way to seeing that GKs are in dead very killable...

Scout Bikers. @115pts, they can turbo charge on the scout move, trap a piece of terrain, boast Str6 rapid fire shooting (bikes are relentles) and best of all if you go first they can assault vehicles that have not yet moved with a MB... hopefully more than one if there razors are in a parking lot. Are they squishy with only 3 models, yeah. But they are only 115pts and if they don't die they will jack some stuff up with Str6 to rear armor or nads. These guys are also great at getting into range and taking down a vindicar as well... 

The Libby. My old go to HQ. Shield provides a 5+ cover, and used from a raven can me repositioned to almost anywhere its needed fast. Fear, will rarely work... but on that 1/10 times it does... well try not to laugh to hard when draigo and 10 pallies run off the board. that psychic hood can be real problem for GKs as well because many of them rely on there powers to carry them in combat and keep there vehicles shooting.

ASMs... aka the suicide squad. @130pt these little deathmarked scoundrals can drop in behind almost anyone, d6 scatter. and drop a tank with a IP and melta gun then follow it up the next turn with 12 moves and a MB. Again at 130pts they are high risk to vehicles and low cost.

Now the big guy. I call mine snips. While your opponent is questioning the wisdom of shooting up low cost scouting units like baals, adn bikers you can offten buy your SR a turn of target free movement and thats enough to get your furioso into rage range... @armor13 only the hammers have a chance of anything. Might of titans can be a problem, but it can only be used in the GKs turn, and psychotropic and have no effect on vehicles. with a 4+ at best for a save he can down a good share of termies in one round of combat.

On a poor deployment, a ferioso with a frag cannon in a drop pod can tag 2-3 vehicles for 2 str6 rending hits each (this is killer for DE btw)

None of these units by themselves will are game breaking but together they turn the beat of the battle to your drum and put the GKs on the defensive. Taking quick control of where the battle is going to be fought, and crippling the GK crutch that is the psyfileman dread can topple the GK house of henchmen. 

The real problem with the GK codex is the same with IG, any noob can line up a bunch of units that with massed high str shooting and do well with them. But those same noobs will crumble into the fetal position and sob uncontrollably when faced with an army full of fast moving precision units like BA, fielded by a knowledgeable player.


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## Tienshinhan (Feb 5, 2012)

*Preach brother! Preach!*



Azrell said:


> Scout Bikers. @115pts, they can turbo charge on the scout move, trap a piece of terrain, boast Str6 rapid fire shooting (bikes are relentles) and best of all if you go first they can assault vehicles that have not yet moved with a MB... hopefully more than one if there razors are in a parking lot. Are they squishy with only 3 models, yeah. But they are only 115pts and if they don't die they will jack some stuff up with Str6 to rear armor or nads. These guys are also great at getting into range and taking down a vindicar as well...


This first part about Scout Bikers is incredibly interesting. I've never used them, never even considered using them. To tell you the truth, the only reason I thought a person would use them would be to cheese it up and trap up some terrain. After reading this though, I am definitely considering fielding them.




Azrell said:


> The real problem with the GK codex is the same with IG, any noob can line up a bunch of units that with massed high str shooting and do well with them. But those same noobs will crumble into the fetal position and sob uncontrollably when faced with an army full of fast moving precision units like BA, fielded by a knowledgeable player.


Now this bit here is the truth. So true, in fact, that upon reading it I immediately got a H-O account in order to commend your wisdom. Seriously, you couldn't be more right. It is my experience that armies such as GK, Tau, DE, etc. Attract noobs and other people looking for the auto-win due to the amount of griping that is apparent online. People read this and are like, "everyone seems to hate these guys so much, they must be the best!"

Hopefully this trend will change in the future because, if you ask me, these people will soon learn that it takes more than a jacked up codex to win games. It takes tactics and intelligence that comes more from experience than anything else.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Tienshinhan said:


> Hopefully this trend will change in the future because, if you ask me, these people will soon learn that it takes more than a jacked up codex to win games. It takes tactics and intelligence that comes more from experience than anything else.


I dunno about you, but I enjoy my free wins against people that try to play "who has the best Codex".


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## OrangeCrow (Feb 26, 2012)

*Storm Shields?*

Since when do the fifth edition grey knights get 15 point storm shields? I was under the impression that gk were for some stupid (fluff wise) yet somewhat enemy friendly way unable to procure storm shields. And also playing chaos deamons against GK is quite possibly the worst idea possible although it would be quite interesting to watch.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

GKs do not get Storm Shields. See your Codex.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

I feel a lot of the hate for GK's comes from the fact that it's very easy to write a decent list that can be played reasonably with little to no skill/experience. At the top end it matches up fairly well with the other 5th ed dex's, but at the bottom end it is just head and shoulders above everyone else, and personally I blame the psycannon. Who thought it was a good idea to have a gun thats a) cheap like budgie and b) good at kiling everything? Silly.

But I digress, the OP was all about how BA's aren't as good as grey knights, and I disagree, or at least feel that the difference is so small as to be immaterial at the top level. Areas where BA's are better:

Ranged fire support- fast autolas, fast razorbacks, better ravens, fast vindicators, attack, bikes, speeders, all gravy.
FNP on bods- for my money this is way more of an issue than the furious charge. Killing bod hordes is impossible outside of cc, and you generally have the movement to avoid cc's that you don't want. Which leads us nicely onto...
FNP Hammernaters- sweet momma these guys are nails. Delivery is a potential issue, but do you care if you have a large squad on foot?

A lot of the cries against GK's points out how many awesome units they have, and I'd agree, but they don't get them all at the same time. If your army is spam based, be prepared to alter it once the meta changes.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd like to express my disagreement - I think it's easiest to write a terribad list with GK of ALL the Marine books, even Dark Angels. As much great stuff as there is in there, writing a horrifically uncompetitive list is incredibly easy.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> I'd like to express my disagreement


How terribly polite ) (no sarcasm intended)




TheKingElessar said:


> I think it's easiest to write a terribad list with GK of ALL the Marine books, even Dark Angels.


Now this you are going to have to back up. Even the most basic GK unit- the strike squad- is great at shooting and decent at cc. It's very difficult to catch with it's pants down, especially at low/middle end play. Terminators aren't bad either at this kind of level, and purifier lists pretty much write themselves for anyone with a reasonable skill level.

Heck, my new GK army is made almost solely from stuff I had lying around/my bits box and I reckon it's better than decent (mainly thanks to DCAs).


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> I'd like to express my disagreement - I think it's easiest to write a terribad list with GK of ALL the Marine books, even Dark Angels. As much great stuff as there is in there, writing a horrifically uncompetitive list is incredibly easy.


Really?

Even over BA?

I think those two armies are the easiest to write a bad list for (it's *really* easy to want to have a taste of everything in the list - because there are so many tasty things - and having too little of everything rather than plenty of a few things is almost always bad).


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

I dont get why people find Grey Knights broken. I've never lost to them once during my 8 months of playing not once. 7 Games against them and still going (No I'm not lying and no I'm not on pot just to be clear). 

Now I play necrons and even back when I started using the 3rd edition book beating them was as simple as waiting them out them out and wearing them down before moving in for a killer blow. Yes there powerful and yes Grey Knights can clear huge chunks of your army quick but once they start taking casualties due to how expensive they are they simply cant replace there dead force's you can force them into a corner and obliterate them. Now using the updated book its a similar thing except now I can field even more units and has since become easier to do the aforementioned due to the likes of shackle Scarabs, Phearon, Abyssal Staff and Whip Coils. Its all about tactics, Patiance and mindset. Dont go in expecting a quick victory because it wont happen but careful planning will allow you to beat them everytime

To sum it up simply just stay away from them for the first 2 turns or so to soften them up before going all Gung ho and moving in for the killer blow to take advantage of there greatest weakness, there Cost and lack of units. Works every time and you dont even have to be necrons to do it. For Blood angels Keep your deathguard/Assualt marines and dreadnoughts away for awhile and let your snipers, lascannons and all your cheap vechiles do there work then as they draw close move in everything and watch as your enemies panic. You'll be surprised.

So to those who are complaining yes there good but there not broken. It just takes a proper mindset to beat them


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Creator of Chaos said:


> I dont get why people find Grey Knights broken. I've never lost to them once during my 8 months of playing not once. 7 Games against them and still going (No I'm not lying and no I'm not on pot just to be clear).
> 
> Now I play necrons and even back when I started using the 3rd edition book beating them was as simple as waiting them out them out and wearing them down before moving in for a killer blow. Yes there powerful and yes Grey Knights can clear huge chunks of your army quick but once they start taking casualties due to how expensive they are they simply cant replace there dead force's you can force them into a corner and obliterate them. Now using the updated book its a similar thing except now I can field even more units and has since become easier to do the aforementioned due to the likes of shackle Scarabs, Phearon, Abyssal Staff and Whip Coils. Its all about tactics, Patiance and mindset. Dont go in expecting a quick victory because it wont happen but careful planning will allow you to beat them everytime
> 
> ...


Now try playing as Daemons for a couple games and see how things go...:suicide:


Some armies have a much easier time combating GK's than others do - IG & DE for example can out shoot the knights while keeping them at arms length through their greater range and/or speed.

Blood Angels though require a different build altogether to compete as they don't want to get into close combat as GK's shred MEQ's/TEQ's in assaults.
So BA players are forced to look more into things like dreads, FnP devastators, min/maxed mech assault squads with meltas, baal predators and the like. Anyone running something like a DoA or assaulty army is going to be in for a world of hurt and huge uphill battle.

People hate GK's because it's too much of a rock/papper/scissors game most of the time. It's not much fun when you either roflstomp the numerically few GK's or else get curbstomped by and army you had little to no hope of competing against to begin with.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yup, Baltar and OddJob - taking a mix of things for GKs is waaaay easy, and diluting the force. In addition, most of the Special Characters are mediocre at best.

You could easily try to play a list with 1 Stormraven, 1 squad of Purifiers, one squad of Terminators, 1 Strike Squad, Valeria, a Techmarine, some Monkeys for Valeria, Draigo, and a couple Paladins bodyguard, and there's the guts of 2k without ANY ranged fire support, and without exactly weight of numbers to compensate the abject lack of mobility.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yup, Baltar and OddJob - taking a mix of things for GKs is waaaay easy, and diluting the force. In addition, most of the Special Characters are mediocre at best.
> 
> You could easily try to play a list with 1 Stormraven, 1 squad of Purifiers, one squad of Terminators, 1 Strike Squad, Valeria, a Techmarine, some Monkeys for Valeria, Draigo, and a couple Paladins bodyguard, and there's the guts of 2k without ANY ranged fire support, and without exactly weight of numbers to compensate the abject lack of mobility.


And I believe that army would still be more effective than a similar level of listbuilding thought applied to most other dex's. Or, put differently, just picking random cool units out of the GK codex will generally result in a more effective amry than doing the same in any other dex. 

A moments thought get's you to strike squads or purifiers, with psycannons, in transports.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sure, but to use DAs as a nexample, there are a lot fewer outright BAD units available, and thus it's closer to idiot-proof. Naturally, no Codex is truly safe, even Space Wolves have the various Blood Claw units, Ragnar, Ulrik, Wolf Priests and Land Raiders - but a bad choice in GKs is both more expensive (and thus restricts passable units) and often even worse than it's counterparts. Anyone who's ever taken one of every Henchman in a unit (and you know as well as I, there'll be at least one) is a perfect example. That unit is so disgustingly awful I can't even...


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Sanguinary Guard with all upgrades.

It's pretty tough to get to a common points sick as bad as that. Die so easily. Not that much stopping power due to there being only 5 of them. Only possible salvage is to play a big points game and throw Dante in with them. Even then, it's still a poor choice.


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## inqusitor magneto (Jan 23, 2012)

hhehehe, I dont consider BA and GK the same. key point. GK all have pwr wpns. BA do not. GK can have their str increased in combat for free. BA cannot. GK can even potentially halt a Ba attack. GK have alot of army list and abillities. The only problem with them is the general who commands them. This is where your fault lies gents. The army is solid and is meant to deal with any force. If the general is not of sound mind and can think on the fly then yes, such an army can be beaten. although GK can make more mistakes then SM armies and still come back. we have a greater percentage of coming back and beating a hard army

While you do have your FA ability on your vehicles str7 pyscannons still can pop you. not only that I can DS behind your fast army and pop your back. Gk won alot of GT last year and i forsee then winning their alot this year. When you combine sound generals with a good army then yes you can beat up on many armies. I think the GK book was done like this because chaos is coming out with a new codex and some crazy stuff will be hitting the fan. Just dont sleep on a good general of GK. you will be shocked every time with your jaw dropping and the game over by turn 3


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