# Return of the Primarchs



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Sorry if this has been done before....

One thing 've noticed is that most/all the first founding chapters seem to have legends about their Primarchs coming back to fight with their warriors in the last battle.

SW - Leman Russ says smoething about coming back just before he disappears

Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman is slowly healing

Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus is fighting in another plane becoming eternally stronger in readiness for the last battle

Salamanders - They have to find 9 artifacts before Vulkaan will return to help them fight the last battle

I can't remember the others but I'm pretty sure they do

Anyway my question is how do people foresee the Primarchs returning. I think that storyline would make an awesome Dan Abnett/Graham McNeill novel.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Lion is sleeping on the Rock, their chapter monestary. 

The Khan will pop out of the webway...someday.

And Corax will return from the Eye of Terror, after being drunk under the table by Russ. Apparently Russ drank so much Chaos-laced alcohol that he lost the keys to his battle-barge and Corax had to car pool with him.

Sadly, Ferrus Manus isn't coming back. Since Fulgrim cut off his head.


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## Iistaan Venturian (Feb 11, 2010)

When the Primarchs return, it will be a day of reckoning and pure awesome. They would still have an idea of how to lead the Imperium, how their father led the Imperium, the way that the Imperium _should_ still be directed. Hopefully, upon their return, the following will happen.

1. Lion El'Jonson will awaken, rebuild Caliban, get his sword back from Cypher, and begin a crusade of holy ass-kickery across the galaxy.

2. Leman Russ returns from the Eye of Terror, smacks his marines in the face for being such retards over the time of his absence, and returns the Space Wolves to their former glory, bum rushing the Planet of Sorcerers in the process.

3. Jaghatai Khan, sick of subsisting on the flesh of Dark Eldar for ten-thousand years, emerges from the webway and beings probing raids within the Eye of Terror, utilizing the bike skills of the White Scars to their fullest.

4. Robute Guilliman finally heals and embarks on a trip into the Eye of Terror. Once their, he proceeds to punch Fulgrim in the face until nothing remains but specks of mutated flesh and eyeshadow.

5. Corax returns from the Eye of Terror, finally having gotten over himself. Destruction of heretics ensues.

6. Vulkan returns from his escapades, whatever they may be, and collaborates the Salamanders and their successors with the Sisters of Battle in a crusade, the sole purpose of which is to set the Eye of Terror on fire.

7. Alpharius and Omegon reveal that they were just trolling all along, launch an unexpected attack at chaos from the inside out, and rejoin their battle brothers in glory.

Yeah, if only :\


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

I am guessing they will return when the "End of Days" is almost upon the Empire of man. Like someone else mentioned in the the thread below. The Primarchs by themselves would not have the power to stop Chaos & something else spectacular would also need to happen to assist them. 

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56106

For sure I am guessing Russ will return when the Fang is under it's most serious threat. So things will likely get a lot worse before they get better.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I think the only Primarch that has any chance of returning is Lion El'Jonson, the rest are likely dead.

Their 'return' is, in my opinion, akin to King Arthur rising again to defend Britain- not going to happen but it's a comforting thought to hold to when the world got really bad.

For the record the Ultramarines don't think their Primarch is healing, it's the irrantional pilgrims who come to view his body that have made that claim.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> For the record the Ultramarines don't think their Primarch is healing, it's the irrantional pilgrims who come to view his body that have made that claim.


Indeed. And of course the fact that healing in stasis is impossible.


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## Scyfus (Jan 18, 2010)

Fulgrim 2, imperium 0. Let the rest of them come back, more heads for Horus.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think Russ is a good possibility with El Jhonson. If the 13th Company can survive the Milleniums in the EoT then Russ surley is alive and well in their too, possibly leading them.


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

perhaps if the lion had helped during the seige of terra / during the final battle between the emperor and horus Sanguinius might be on this list
he doesn't deserve to wake up


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If it had been physically possible for the Lion to get to Terra in time he might have helped, but along with Russ he was still hours away when that fateful confrontation took place.

The 13th Company survived but I doubt it has done so without significant losses, and Russ went into the EoT with only a relatively small retinue- he might indeed be the mysterious leader of the 13th Company who has yet to reveal himself, but it's even more likely that he perished.
I certainly don't hold out any hopes for Corax's or Vulkan's survival considering they journeyed alone.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

raverboi said:


> perhaps if the lion had helped during the seige of terra / during the final battle between the emperor and horus Sanguinius might be on this list
> he doesn't deserve to wake up


He didn't have time to get there. He arrived just at the siege was ending or after it had ended and Horus was dead. If there is any primarch that could come back I would want it to be either Poppa Smurf or The lion. But anyway the only primarchs that could come back are the lion, Corax, Russ, and Khan MAYBE, and that’s a big MAYBE, Poppa Smurf. Ferrus, Dorn, and pigeon man are taking dirt naps so they are out of the question and personally I would say Poppa Smurf is far too far gone to come back but 40k has done stranger things.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> If it had been physically possible for the Lion to get to Terra in time he might have helped, but along with Russ he was still hours away when that fateful confrontation took place.





gen.ahab said:


> He didn't have time to get there. He arrived just at the siege was ending or after it had ended and Horus was dead.


The Problem with the Lion and the Dark Angels in that regard is that we havn't a clue what they were doing in the decade (give or take) between Isstvan V and the Siege of Terra. But then again we don't know what several of the legions were doing over that period of time!

In _Fallen Angels_, The Lion states to Perturabo that he is returning to the Shield Worlds to prepare his legion for the trip to Terra - which is in itself mysterious given that this was pre-Isstvan V, and at this point Horus' defeat seemed truly inevitable. If he was planning on returning to Terra before even Isstvan V occured, what took him over ten years to do so? 

I can only think of two valid suggestions. One being that Warp Storms delayed them. And the second being that they were engaged with the Night Lords who had been sent by Horus to the eastern fringes to protect the flanks of the Warmasters advance on Terra.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One being that Warp Storms delayed them. And the second being that they were engaged with the Night Lords who had been sent by Horus to the eastern fringes to protect the flanks of the Warmasters advance on Terra.


I've always had a suspicion that it was probably a combination of the two. Although the Night Lords being sent against the Dark Angels brings up an interesting question. 

Was Horus really as good as they let on? If you look at the Night Lords they seems to be specialists in Terror Tactics and fear mongering, their Primarch Night Haunter is known to be unstable and is never spoken of being a particularly fearsome warrior or general in comparison to the other Primarch's. 

So why would you send THIS bunch up against the Dark Angels. A group who are renowned for never having been scared of anything in the galaxy. Coupled with this they're led by Lion El'Jonson. A Warrior perfectly capable of matching Leman Russ in a bout of Fisticuffs and known to be such a tactical Genius that even Horus gets the heebie jeebies about fighting his Legion head on. 

Surely a better bunch to send against Lion would be somebody like Alpharius who wouldn't try to make the Angels wet their pants and would probably see to it that all the Dark Angel's guns suddenly didn't work and the warranty on their fleet suddenly ran out. 

I might be biased here but i really can't see the Night Lords putting up much of a fight against the Angels. Of course that may not be the way it happened. It might have taken so long for the Angels to get the Terra because they were so busy hunting down the Night Lords who could have been spread out across huge areas of space using hit and run tactics and terrorist style raids. That sort of thing could bog down a Legion and Lion doesn't strike me as the type to leave an enemy legion capable of fighting behind him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> I've always had a suspicion that it was probably a combination of the two. Although the Night Lords being sent against the Dark Angels brings up an interesting question.
> 
> Was Horus really as good as they let on? If you look at the Night Lords they seems to be specialists in Terror Tactics and fear mongering, their Primarch Night Haunter is known to be unstable and is never spoken of being a particularly fearsome warrior or general in comparison to the other Primarch's.
> 
> ...


Firstly I think your underestimating Curze and his Night Lords a fair bit. Night Haunter may have been a troubled (and betrayed) individual, but he was still a Primarch. One who even put Dorn to the floor without so much as breaking a sweat. His Legion were also an incredably effective fighting force.

And Secondly, technically speaking the Night Lords weren't sent specifically to attack the Dark Angels, they were sent to Tsagualsa to set up a base of operations - and would then continue to begin a campaign of genocide against the Imperial strongholds of Heroldar & Thramas, systems that if not taken would have left the flanks of the Warmaster's strike on Terra vulnerable (The Thramas system bring of particular importance, as it comprised of several Mechanicum Forge Worlds whose loyalty was firmly with the Emperor). Its the _Collected Visions_ that mentions that the Dark Angels were last known to be operating in the region, thus the Night Lords should be prepared.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly I think your underestimating Curze and his Night Lords a fair bit. Night Haunter may have been a troubled (and betrayed) individual, but he was still a Primarch. One who even put Dorn to the floor without so much as breaking a sweat. His Legion were also an incredably effective fighting force.
> 
> And Secondly, technically speaking the Night Lords weren't sent specifically to attack the Dark Angels, they were sent to Tsagualsa to set up a base of operations - and would then continue to begin a campaign of genocide against the Imperial strongholds of Heroldar & Thramas, systems that if not taken would have left the flanks of the Warmaster's strike on Terra vulnerable (The Thramas system bring of particular importance, as it comprised of several Mechanicum Forge Worlds whose loyalty was firmly with the Emperor). Its the _Collected Visions_ that mentions that the Dark Angels were last known to be operating in the region, thus the Night Lords should be prepared.


Yeah I've just been re-reading that part of the book. But it still doesn't exactly sit well with me. The Dark Angels are constantly being described as one of the most powerful and dangerous of the legions. They're always up there with the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (NOT Sons of Horus) The Night Lords as a force don't exactly have a stellar battle record, and despite Curze getting the drop on Dorn it's not likely that El'Jonson would be caught unawares. And if they were known to be operating in this region I would think Horus would be smart enough to send something more capable of matching the Angels since such a dangerous Legion crawling up Horus backside would be a bit of a bugger to his plans. 

Incidently I just checked Lexicanum and according to that The Night Lords still had their pre-heresy numbers around the time of Curze's assassination. So this still begs the question...What the hell was Lion doing all that time? Picking his nose?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

As Child-of-the-Emperor stated they were delayed. They were extremely loyal and would never abandon the emperor in his time of great need therefore we must assume that they had been delayed. Also, lexicanum couldn't be considered the definitive source for 40k fluff. It's good but the 40k books are a far more reliable source of information.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> As Child-of-the-Emperor stated they were delayed. They were extremely loyal and would never abandon the emperor in his time of great need therefore we must assume that they had been delayed. Also, lexicanum couldn't be considered the definitive source for 40k fluff. It's good but the 40k books are a far more reliable source of information.


Oh I know Lion wasn't a traitor. I just want to know what he was up too in those 10 years. I suppose it's likely that he got bogged down fighting insugents or Xenos or something similar. Or He got caught up fighting Daemons in a situation similar to Sanguinius.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Oh I know Lion wasn't a traitor. I just want to know what he was up too in those 10 years. I suppose it's likely that he got bogged down fighting insugents or Xenos or something similar. Or He got caught up fighting Daemons in a situation similar to Sanguinius.


Entirely plausible, that and the warp was suppose to be extremely chaotic during this time so warp travel could have taken much longer or even been impossible for stretches of time. I do however agree that the night lords wouldn't have been much of a match against the Dark Angels. They're experts at sociological warfare, a tactic that would prove utterly ineffective against the Dark Angels.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks for all the reply guys and girls. It was my first post so I wasn't sure if it would be interesting enough for anyone to reply to.

Personally I think Baron Spikey has it right but it's nice to dream.



Baron Spikey said:


> I think the only Primarch that has any chance of returning is Lion El'Jonson, the rest are likely dead.
> 
> Their 'return' is, in my opinion, akin to King Arthur rising again to defend Britain- not going to happen but it's a comforting thought to hold to when the world got really bad.
> 
> For the record the Ultramarines don't think their Primarch is healing, it's the irrantional pilgrims who come to view his body that have made that claim.


The other possible way I can see a Primarch being reborn is by the Blood Angel method in Deus Encarmine and Deus Sanguinius where Sang was "reborn" (Ok I know it wasn't him really). However if the geneseed was given to someone and it did somehow reactivate in a different way, could the Primarch be reborn through that method?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As this is a thread about the Primarchs then I might post this, alittle off topic but I found it at Dan Abnetts blogg, behold Leman Russ (A little blurry):


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> The Dark Angels are constantly being described as one of the most powerful and dangerous of the legions. They're always up there with the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (NOT Sons of Horus) The Night Lords as a force don't exactly have a stellar battle record, and despite Curze getting the drop on Dorn it's not likely that El'Jonson would be caught unawares. And if they were known to be operating in this region I would think Horus would be smart enough to send something more capable of matching the Angels since such a dangerous Legion crawling up Horus backside would be a bit of a bugger to his plans.





gen.ahab said:


> They're experts at sociological warfare, a tactic that would prove utterly ineffective against the Dark Angels.


I still think you guys are underestimating that Night Lords.

They are Astartes and led by a Primarch, just like the Dark Angels. Horus knew what he was doing, and probably concluded that the Night Lords were the best legion to send to the eastern fringes, regardless as to whether the Dark Angels were there or not.

He knew the Night Lords were capable of launching a campaign of genocide that would effectively protect his flanks as his struck for Terra. 

The Night Lords were merciless killers, Night Haunter was a genius, his doctrine of war was brutally effective. In they engaged the Dark Angels, it would be generally speaking an even fight, the Dark Angels wouldn't have any clear advantage whatsoever.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I have to... as usual agree with C of E (haha church of england... oh nevermind)

The night lords were a terribly effective legion that even Horus respected a great deal. As he said in False Gods... crazy guy but brilliant when you want to have xenos race shitting their pants

That was the Night Lords, silent, stealthy and merciless killers, terrifying to behold and even worse to cross. They were mad men wiling to commit genocide upon a whole planet to achieve ther goals. Ruthless merciless sadistic killers, especially ruthless merciless sadistic prepared killers will be hard to shift even by the strongest legion.

Plus where does it say the dark angels specialised in sociological warfare? Doesn't mean they dont shit themselves, and the night lords were the best at inducing brown trouser syndrome


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> I have to... as usual agree with C of E (haha church of england... oh nevermind)
> 
> The night lords were a terribly effective legion that even Horus respected a great deal. As he said in False Gods... crazy guy but brilliant when you want to have xenos race shitting their pants
> 
> ...


I think it's supposed to be that the Dark Angels were similar to the Luna Wolves. They didn't care about Terror tactics because they knew they could outfight and beat anybody hands down. A Legion which specialises in Terror Tactics isn't really going to be super effective against such a Legion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree with Coder59 in that the Night Lords terror tactics would have been ineffective against the Dark Angels. Personally I believe the Night Lords would be at a disadvantage against the Dark Angels. Don't get me wrong though, the Night Lords were an excellent fighting force and would still be a challenge for any space marine force, however, I do believe they would be defeated by the Dark Angels.

P.S. I meant to say Psychological warfare...... scociological warfare makes no sence. lol


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I agree with Coder59 in that the Night Lords terror tactics would have been ineffective against the Dark Angels. Personally I believe the Night Lords would be at a disadvantage against the Dark Angels. Don't get me wrong though, the Night Lords were an excellent fighting force and would still be a challenge for any space marine force, however, I do believe they would be defeated by the Dark Angels.
> 
> P.S. I meant to say Psychological warfare...... scociological warfare makes no sence. lol


That's what I mean. The argument that Night Haunter was a Primarch doesn't really hold much weight primarchs can still lose, just look at Ferus Manus. Kurze was still unstable and not the greatest of generals. Lion is known as a very dangerous opponent, and has a reputation for command that makes even the Warmaster nervous about fighting him. I don't see such an idividual being overly concerned by Night Haunters terror tactics.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> That's what I mean. The argument that Night Haunter was a Primarch doesn't really hold much weight primarchs can still lose, just look at Ferus Manus.


Primarchs have only 'lost' to other Primarchs (And the Emperor in Horus' case)...



Coder59 said:


> Kurze was still unstable and not the greatest of generals.


Curze shredded himself of his own humanity for the betterment of the Imperium. Regardless of whether you consider the other Primarchs human, Curze certainly was not.

He bore the curse/gift of foreknowing, he was merciless and ruthless because thats what the Emperor needed him to be. Rogal Dorn didn't fear Horus, or Angron when the Heresy came... He didn't fear death or loss, he only feared Curze, because he knew what he was capable of.

Curze was a Primarch and thus was an extremly capable general and tactician. Prove me otherwise. 

Obviously Terror tactics & Psychological Warfare wouldn't have been as effective against Astartes as it was against mortals, but then again since when did the VIII Legion only employ Terror tactics? They were equipped and armed just like any other legion, as were the Dark Angels, A conflict between the two would have been even, if not in Night Haunter's favour considering he had a stronghold on Tsagualsa. 



Coder59 said:


> Lion is known as a very dangerous opponent, and has a reputation for command that makes even the Warmaster nervous about fighting him.


Horus wasn't worried about fighting the Lion...



Coder59 said:


> I don't see such an idividual being overly concerned by Night Haunters terror tactics.


Maybe not fearful of Curze of his legion, but certainly wary and concerned about engaging them. The reputation of the Night Lords preceded them, they were Astartes, but much more, they were hunters, ruthless and merciless - The Lion would have been right to fear them, because they were a fighting force he couldn't have cracked so easily, if at all.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Primarchs have only 'lost' to other Primarchs (And the Emperor in Horus' case)...


Leman Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Manus lost to the Emperor as well.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Curze shredded himself of his own humanity for the betterment of the Imperium. Regardless of whether you consider the other Primarchs human, Curze certainly was not.
> 
> He bore the curse/gift of foreknowing, he was merciless and ruthless because thats what the Emperor needed him to be. Rogal Dorn didn't fear Horus, or Angron when the Heresy came... He didn't fear death or loss, he only feared Curze, because he knew what he was capable of.
> 
> ...


Curze gave up his humanity to serve the Emperor. Every atrocity, genocide or purge was sanctioned by the Emperor who needed compliance, which is what Curze gave him. And in return he was publicly shamed, betrayed and then he was nearly assassinated. If his reasons for joining with Horus weren't good then nobody else's was.

That and Curze nearly beat him to death in a vision induced rage. Dorn was right to fear Curze and the VIII Legion.

Depends. The Astartes wouldn't be afraid but they'd be shaken up by the conditions and tactics of the Night Lords. That is the factor that would win a victory for the Night Lords.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus wasn't worried about fighting the Lion...


Was anyone?. The Lion's legion at the time had nothing special about them, their Primarch while special as all Primarchs were was unremarkable. He had nothing unique about him. Sanguinius was like an angel, Leman Russ was a barbarian wolf, Lorgar was a zealot, Konrad Curze was a vigilante in shadow. The Lion, and Guilliman and Dorn, were just ordinary in a sense.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Maybe not fearful of Curze of his legion, but certainly wary and concerned about engaging them. The reputation of the Night Lords preceded them, they were Astartes, but much more, they were hunters, ruthless and merciless - The Lion would have been right to fear them, because they were a fighting force he couldn't have cracked so easily, if at all.


The Night Lords were famous for lightning raids and merciless advances, as well as their terror tactics. The Lion would have found his positions in darkness and overrun within minutes. He didn't fear them but he should have been cautious.



gen.ahab said:


> I agree with Coder59 in that the Night Lords terror tactics would have been ineffective against the Dark Angels. Personally I believe the Night Lords would be at a disadvantage against the Dark Angels. Don't get me wrong though, the Night Lords were an excellent fighting force and would still be a challenge for any space marine force, however, I do believe they would be defeated by the Dark Angels.
> 
> P.S. I meant to say Psychological warfare...... scociological warfare makes no sence. lol


The Night Lords terror tactics were not just about making the enemy drop and spend their last moments crying in the dark. They were to give the Night Lords an advantage. One Night Lord kills three Blood Angels in one source by getting the drop on them.. literally dropping from the ceiling in the dark and killing them.

The Dark Angels were good but they would fall before the Night Lords


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Was anyone?. The Lion's legion at the time had nothing special about them, their Primarch while special as all Primarchs were was unremarkable. He had nothing unique about him. Sanguinius was like an angel, Leman Russ was a barbarian wolf, Lorgar was a zealot, Konrad Curze was a vigilante in shadow. The Lion, and Guilliman and Dorn, were just ordinary in a sense.


The Dark Angels were lead by possibly the Primarch with the greatest TACTICAL genius of them all. Lion was an extremely fearsome opponent for any general to face. This is one of the reasons why Horus didn't want The Dark Angels anywhere near Terra, he certainly didn't want Lion and Guilliman co-ordinating against him since that would be something even he couldn't beat. 
Yes the Night Lords were scary but were talking about a Legion here that literally knows no fear. They're not scared of anything, and when lead by a their Primarch they're going to react quickly and counter attack even faster. That means that Night Haunter and friends would have to be constantly coming up with new tactics and having to out think Jonson on a tactical level at the same time as having to fight him head on. Remember the Angels were third on the tally of Victories during the Crusade, so far we haven't heard about anything the Night Lords have done and even when we do we know who are regarded as better than the Angels and it certainly isn't them. 
All evidence and information points to the fact that if these two legions DID fight, (remember we have no evidence of them even engaging each other) then the Night Lords while fearsome would find themselves overmatched by an opponent of the Dark Angels Calibur.

Oh and Horus WAS nervous about fighting Jonson and Guilliman he wasn't certain he could beat them in a stand up fight and he knew that if they were on Terra he would have a much tougher fight on his hands. One he wasn't sure he could win. The best tactic in that situation was the one Horus adopted, get them as far away from Terra as possible and feed them something to keep them busy. I honestly don't think that Horus expected either Koar-Pharon or Night Haunter to destroy those two Legions but they would slow them down and hopefully allow Horus to fight them later on his own terms.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> The Dark Angels were lead by possibly the Primarch with the greatest TACTICAL genius of them all. Lion was an extremely fearsome opponent for any general to face.


Yes he was, and I believe Lord of the Night you are in turn underestimating the Dark Angels like I also believe Coder59 is underestimating the Night Lords :biggrin:



Coder59 said:


> This is one of the reasons why Horus didn't want The Dark Angels anywhere near Terra, he certainly didn't want Lion and Guilliman co-ordinating against him since that would be something even he couldn't beat.


As far as we know Horus didn't actually set in motion any plans to deal with the Dark Angels during the Heresy. The Night Lords were despatched to enact a genocidal campaign against Imperial Strongholds throughout the Eastern Fringes to protect the Warmaster's flank as he struck for Terra. Night Haunter wasn't sent to attack the Dark Angels, merely warned that there last known position was nearby.

It didn't matter to Horus which legions were present at Terra (perhaps bar the Ultramarines because they were by far the largest), only that there were a minimal number, so he could enact his trademark tactic of ripping off the head so the body would die.

If the Dark Angels were closer to Terra than lets say the White Scars, Horus would have acted to tie up/delay the White Scars rather than the Angels. Its not that Horus was nervous or afraid of fighting the Dark Angels, its just that he wanted as many Legions as possible out of the way.



Coder59 said:


> Yes the Night Lords were scary but were talking about a Legion here that literally knows no fear. They're not scared of anything, and when lead by a their Primarch they're going to react quickly and counter attack even faster. That means that Night Haunter and friends would have to be constantly coming up with new tactics and having to out think Jonson on a tactical level at the same time as having to fight him head on.


Two legions of similar size, strength and armament and each led by their Primarch means a level playing field.

Also what Night Haunter said to Sanguinius springs to mind here:

'It has been said by tacticians throughout the ages of mankind that no plan survives contact with the enemy. I do not waste my time countering the plans of my foes, brother. I never care what my enemy intends to do, for they will never be allowed to do it...'



Coder59 said:


> Remember the Angels were third on the tally of Victories during the Crusade, so far we haven't heard about anything the Night Lords have done and even when we do we know who are regarded as better than the Angels and it certainly isn't them.


Tally of victories essentially means nothing, and is good for nothing more than boasting. 



Coder59 said:


> All evidence and information points to the fact that if these two legions DID fight, (remember we have no evidence of them even engaging each other) then the Night Lords while fearsome would find themselves overmatched by an opponent of the Dark Angels Calibur.


No it doesnt.



Coder59 said:


> Oh and Horus WAS nervous about fighting Jonson and Guilliman he wasn't certain he could beat them in a stand up fight and he knew that if they were on Terra he would have a much tougher fight on his hands. One he wasn't sure he could win. The best tactic in that situation was the one Horus adopted, get them as far away from Terra as possible and feed them something to keep them busy. I honestly don't think that Horus expected either Koar-Pharon or Night Haunter to destroy those two Legions but they would slow them down and hopefully allow Horus to fight them later on his own terms.


Show me your source for saying Horus was nervous about fighting Jonson or Guilliman. Its only known that Horus wanted the minimal amount of legions on Terra as possible. The Ultramarines were probably the only legion that Horus specifically wanted out of the way, simply because they were by far the largest.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Show me your source for saying Horus was nervous about fighting Jonson or Guilliman.


You wanted it you got it my friend :so_happy:

"If the Emperor makes a move against us, he will rely upon those Primarchs and Legions who he trusts. Foremost amongst those are the deadly Triumvirate of Guilliman, Sanguinius and El'Jonson."
Horus to Malloghurst. The Horus Heresy Collected Visions PG 196

Why those three? Because they could all surpass the Warmaster in particular areas. Guilliman strategically, Sanguinius in Field command and being an rallying point (not to mention being absolutely nails) and El'Jonson for sheer tactical brilliance. 

El'Jonson was a major threat and Horus knew it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> You wanted it you got it my friend :so_happy:
> 
> "If the Emperor makes a move against us, he will rely upon those Primarchs and Legions who he trusts. Foremost amongst those are the deadly Triumvirate of Guilliman, Sanguinius and El'Jonson."
> Horus to Malloghurst. The Horus Heresy Collected Visions PG 196


Firstly you've used that quote, but it doesn't actually support your argument 

Horus swayed as many legions to his cause as possible, but he knew Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Lion wouldn't turn. Therefore wanted them as far away from Terra as possible (note the Calth ambush and the Signus Cluster incident) so he could successfully strike for Terra.

He mentions those three because they wouldn't turn traitor, therefore would have added a massive advantage to the loyalists if they were allowed to defend Terra. Horus made plans to interupt and delay pretty much every loyalist legion bar the Imperial Fists who were already on Terra (Alpha Legion ambushing the White Scars & Space Wolves etc), its just some (White Scars, Blood Angels) made it back to Terra just in time.

If the Dark Angels had made it back rather than the Blood Angels, it wouldn't have mattered at all to Horus, just as long as there were minimal legions there and Horus held the advantage in Astartes numbers.

My point is is that Horus wasn't nervous/scared about fighting the Lion.



Coder59 said:


> Why those three? Because they could all surpass the Warmaster in particular areas. Guilliman strategically, Sanguinius in Field command and being an rallying point (not to mention being absolutely nails) and El'Jonson for sheer tactical brilliance.


Not necessarily, Horus is noted for all those things just as they are.



Coder59 said:


> El'Jonson was a major threat and Horus knew it.


Yes of course he was, he was a Primarch of an Astartes Legion. Just like every other legion was also a major threat.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

russ could have pwnd horuse ass and i thought this thred was about primarchs returning not noght lords vs dark angels.
i think it would be awesome if dante was force fed tonnes of sanguinis blood and turned into him (unlikely but it would have been awesome)


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly you've used that quote, but it doesn't actually support your argument
> 
> Horus swayed as many legions to his cause as possible, but he knew Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Lion wouldn't turn. Therefore wanted them as far away from Terra as possible (note the Calth ambush and the Signus Cluster incident) so he could successfully strike for Terra.
> 
> ...


I think maybe you're looking at the quote in a different light to me. Horus was good yes but he was an all rounder a jack of all trades. If he was the best at everything it would really make much sense. Horus had the balance, that was why he was Warmaster. Not because he was the best at everything but because he never lost.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

As far as tactical skill goes I believe that the lion and Poppa Smurf surpassed even Horus. However, as Coder59 pointed out Horus possessed all the required skills required for the position of warmaster. The lions' only real fault was his COMPLETE inability to accurately judge character, which is probably what ruled him out as warmaster. The quality that really made Horus warmaster was that he was a particularly adept politician and the fact that he could act as a rallying point for his brothers and the imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> As far as tactical skill goes I believe that the lion and Poppa Smurf surpassed even Horus.


Generally though its hard to compare tactical skill. Each Primarch utilised different tactics, and although Alpharius, El'Jonson, Horus, and Guilliman are noted as being beyond the other Primarchs in terms of tactical brilliance its still impossible to compare them realistically - Generally because the tactics they utilised were so different.

I suppose the only precedent we have to compare two of these four Primarchs is the Battle of Eskrador. Where essentially the Alpha Legion gutted the Ultramarines, which is a strong indicator of Alpharius' methods being superior. But then again, this is a single event that doesn't necessarily offer conclusive evidence.



gen.ahab said:


> However, as Coder59 pointed out Horus possessed all the required skills required for the position of warmaster. The lions' only real fault was his COMPLETE inability to accurately judge character, which is probably what ruled him out as warmaster. The quality that really made Horus warmaster was that he was a particularly adept politician and the fact that he could act as a rallying point for his brothers and the imperium.


Yes, but I think its more to do with Horus' ambition which the Emperor passed onto him, as noted in _False Gods_.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes I believe the emperor said something to the point that he had "the eye of the tiger" or something to that effect. But as for their tactics I would prefer the tactics utilized by the I legion and the XIII legion simply because their battle plans tended to be more fluid and it seemed to me they were the masters of the evolving battle plan. Horus' tactic was simple and effective yes, cut the head off the snake, but if they were facing a hydra that would be relatively ineffective. Also, if Horus didn't fear the wrath of the I or the XIII legion he was either a fool or a mad man.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes I believe the emperor said something to the point that he had "the eye of the tiger" or something to that effect. But as for their tactics I would prefer the tactics utilized by the I legion and the XIII legion simply because their battle plans tended to be more fluid and it seemed to me they were the masters of the evolving battle plan. Horus' tactic was simple and effective yes, cut the head off the snake, but if they were facing a hydra that would be relatively ineffective. Also, if Horus didn't fear the wrath of the I or the XIII legion he was either a fool or a mad man.


Well he was either one or the other... he may even have been both!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think once it gets to a certain point in the heresy novels that reveals what the DA were up to it will come down to them coming to russ's aid. i think the quote is something like 'help from a unexpected quarter'. as russ was left to fight his hit and run attacks by the khan on the emperors orders it can only be DA or eldar and having the eldar come to the rescue is not really space wolves style. but having el'jonson come and help russ and actually showing the respect he probably does have for russ then its kinda a way to seal his loyalty too which seems to have been put into question by what was written in fallen angels.

it might not end up panning out that way but its the most likely and fits well with the fluff i think.


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## W20 (Feb 22, 2010)

My god you guys, you're missing the point of the title it says "Return of the Primarchs" not "Night Lords vs. Dark Angels" or "Horus vs. El'Johnson"

Either way this argument will never end you are bringing your personal feelings into this which means you will not allow your selves to be wrong. 

I personally after reading all of this think their is no way of actually knowing which answer is correct unless GW commisioned a book explaining it or at least dipicting a huge fight between the legions and their Primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No we pretty much answered the question to the best of our abilities. So far it stands as the lion being the most likely to return fallowed by the primarchs that are missing in the warp who are in turn fallowed by Poppa Smurf who is probably not coming back. At least I believe that was what it came out to be.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Angron would wup all their butts! he's one mean and angry and nasty big brute that can cut a primarch in half! lol who needs tactical sense when fighting prowess gets the job done!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You do recall the space puppies incident correct? You know, when his dumb ass stopped to pile the bodies of the dead and that ended up getting his dumb ass puncked. That is when you might want some tactical skill. :laugh:


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Leman Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Manus lost to the Emperor as well.
> 
> Curze gave up his humanity to serve the Emperor. Every atrocity, genocide or purge was sanctioned by the Emperor who needed compliance, which is what Curze gave him. And in return he was publicly shamed, betrayed and then he was nearly assassinated. If his reasons for joining with Horus weren't good then nobody else's was.
> 
> ...


Rogal dorn and his legion were far different from gulliman and the lion. He was a fortifier his legion could assemble field fortification swifter than any other apart from pertubo's and even then they were on parr. His legion were referd to as stone men due to the similarity between their battle tactics and their outlook.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

stone men? first time ive heard that. i thought the stone men where humans that were around during the golden age and fought the iron men who were sentient robots.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Yeah I've just been re-reading that part of the book. But it still doesn't exactly sit well with me. The Dark Angels are constantly being described as one of the most powerful and dangerous of the legions. They're always up there with the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (NOT Sons of Horus) The Night Lords as a force don't exactly have a stellar battle record, and despite Curze getting the drop on Dorn it's not likely that El'Jonson would be caught unawares. And if they were known to be operating in this region I would think Horus would be smart enough to send something more capable of matching the Angels since such a dangerous Legion crawling up Horus backside would be a bit of a bugger to his plans.
> 
> Incidently I just checked Lexicanum and according to that The Night Lords still had their pre-heresy numbers around the time of Curze's assassination. So this still begs the question...What the hell was Lion doing all that time? Picking his nose?


Though I know you all especially C of E will hate me, we have to put out all the possibilities including the fact that perhaps the Dark Angels were more of a speculating force seeing which side would win. After reading collected visions i have been swayed by the idea that the Lion betrayed the emperor. However in Angels of Darkness there is a lot of evidence that shows the legion in general concerned more about the well being of their legion than that of the Imperium, with their secrets and incidents. The one I'm speaking of was when the Lion used a whole cities populace as bait for an ork invasion and then planned to decimate the entire city with fire power.

I think the Lion was so parnoid and freaked out about having half his legion betraying him and instead sent out whole crusades with his fleet looking for them. Kind of like trying to get rid of the stain on the carpet before daddy comes home type thing.

I think the primarchs that will come back are Corax, Vulkan, Russ, The Lion, and perhaps khan.

I think Corax will simply because he is one of the top three best primarchs hand to hand. My source for this is Raven's Flight. If there was a primarch so survive the horrors of the warp i think Corax would be one.

Vulkan, though I like the legion and am in a current creation of an army, I haven't heard much about Vulkan and regarded him as weaker than most primarchs, so i suspected him of dieing in the Istaavan Masacre, but after reading Salamanders I have to believe the found artifacts are a means to an end.

Russ, when Russ says something he means it, and he does it. When he says hes comming back, THEN HES COMMEN THE #### BACK!

I think Khan is really having fun in the webway, running around in bikes in a unending arena to ride and kill, sooner or later hes got to get work done on his bikes. So its inevitable that he must return.

The Lion is probably just "sleeping" cause hes lost so much pride being known as one of the most loyal legions only in turn to have half of them go rogue or chaos. It would be disgusting. Thats pretty much one of the most disgusting things any Primarch had to suffer from their own legion. So I think that he will eventually come back once he has all the fallen killed or kept prisoner under the rock. Kind of like a kid in a close who wont come out till he gets what he wants.

As for Dorn and Guilleman, those boys seem to be long gone. Stasis my ass, hes screwed, and I don't believe Dorn would have left his fists and ran away. He seems to hot headed and stubborn to let anything like that happen. I mean how the heck could he be alive? "whoops I dropped my gloves, time to run away."


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I also have to agree to a CERTAIN degree to Coder59s argument about legions excelling in the battlefield in one way or another to others. I think of the creation of the Primarchs and the doctrines as a "war web" and kind of like a food web. Where one is better for fighting the other theres another one to best it simply due to the tactics one legion uses that can best one legion and be a concern against another. HOWEVER, if indeed the Dark Angels met up against the Night Lords in worlds where cities where dark and every scene on its surface was like jack the ripper I don't know how the Dark Angels could deal with it. Dark Angel's doctrine is very "battlefield tactical" almost like your troops and my troops we know where you are and you know where we are and we will see who can out manouver who and who has superior tactics that way. THAT fight the Dark Angels could win. Its the Knightly Orders way for honor and glory. It doesn't really seem that Dark Angels know how to deal with fighting around a civilian population. Like in the incident on my previous post in Angels of Darkness, they just didn't know what to do with the Civilians in there way, which coincidentally has a similar incident also occurs in the same book about 10000 years later. When it comes down to it, I don't know how the Dark Angels could deal with hit and run tactics let alone the gruesome and messed up ways the Night Lords liked to wage war. I think that it wouldn't have really worked for them to be honorable Noble Knights who came up with an army of Psychotic Lunitc Assasins hiding in dark cities who came without warning, killed, mutilated, and ran away to fight again when it best suited them. The argument that its astartes against astartes and neither side had an advantage is too blunt and just not true. It comes down to what tactic leads supreme in the scenario. So I wouldn't be surprised if the fluff or fact about the Night Lords maintaining great strength after the heresy (and of course the Dark Angels did meet against the Night Lords) was true considering the circumstances.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Though I know you all especially C of E will hate me, we have to put out all the possibilities including the fact that perhaps the Dark Angels were more of a speculating force seeing which side would win.


I think you misjudged me on that one :grin:

Im perfectly open to the idea of the Lion being a 'Fence-Sitter', but if anything I think _Fallen Angels_ portrays him more of a deluded loyalist than any kind of Traitor.



ckcrawford said:


> I think Corax will simply because he is one of the top three best primarchs hand to hand. My source for this is Raven's Flight. If there was a primarch so survive the horrors of the warp i think Corax would be one.


_Raven's Flight_ hardly goes anywhere near to saying Corax was one of the most martially able Primarchs. One thing it does state though is that Corax knows Horus, Sanguinius and Angron are superior to him in combat.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think you misjudged me on that one :grin:
> 
> Im perfectly open to the idea of the Lion being a 'Fence-Sitter', but if anything I think _Fallen Angels_ portrays him more of a deluded loyalist than any kind of Traitor.
> 
> ...


I was pretty sure that while the World Eaters were climbing up the hill to get him, he said something in the lines that there were few who could best him in hand to hand combat. And then it listed the primarchs that could do so. But i would have to listen to it again, cause im not exactly sure. I do remember him using "few."


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I was pretty sure that while the World Eaters were climbing up the hill to get him, he said something in the lines that there were few who could best him in hand to hand combat. And then it listed the primarchs that could do so. But i would have to listen to it again, cause im not exactly sure. I do remember him using "few."


There was no doubt in Corax's mind that if he met Angron in combat, the Red Angel would kill him.

For none could have bested Angron apart from Horus or perhaps Sanguinius. (In Corax's opinion)

Is essentially what was said.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Though I know you all especially C of E will hate me, we have to put out all the possibilities including the fact that perhaps the Dark Angels were more of a speculating force seeing which side would win. After reading collected visions i have been swayed by the idea that the Lion betrayed the emperor. However in Angels of Darkness there is a lot of evidence that shows the legion in general concerned more about the well being of their legion than that of the Imperium, with their secrets and incidents. The one I'm speaking of was when the Lion used a whole cities populace as bait for an ork invasion and then planned to decimate the entire city with fire power.


Please note before you go ANY further that Angels of Darkness is written from the point of view of one of the Fallen. It cannot be considered truth and in light of the events of Fallen Angels in which the fallen from that book actually appears you can see that he's spouting a load of bullhickey.



ckcrawford said:


> I think the Lion was so parnoid and freaked out about having half his legion betraying him and instead sent out whole crusades with his fleet looking for them. Kind of like trying to get rid of the stain on the carpet before daddy comes home type thing.


Not true Lion didn't even know about the Betrayal until after the battle of Terra took place when the battle of Caliban was faught. The Loyalist Dark Angels may have won that one but the last they saw of their Primarch was him going into the Fortress Monastary and dueling with Luther, they also assumed that they had exterminated The Fallen when Caliban exploded. By the time the Dark Angels began to activly hunt the fallen, Lion had been missing for Hundreds of years. So the idea that he was the one sending out the Ravenwing (Crusade fleets to hunt the fallen? Where did you get that idea from?) is pretty much impossible.

Please before you start talking about Lion El'Jonson read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. You know the books were you actually get to directly see his actions. As of Fallen Angels the idea of Lion sitting on the fence is pretty much moot since you see his hatred and disgust for Horus and all the traitors. If anything Lion was duped into indirectly aiding a Legion he didn't even know had betrayed the Imperium.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't believe any of the loyal Primarchs, save maybe Lion, will ever have a chance of being back. Besides if their loyal brothers were to return, I'm sure the traitors would come for them, and lets be honest, what chance to the regular Primarchs have against the Daemon Prince Primarchs. Magnus, Angron, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Lorgar, and Mortarion are way beyond what they were. Case in point: Daemon Prince Fulgrim is the reason Guillman is half dead and in stasis, and Daemon Prince Horus could only be beaten by the Emperor, whom he was able to seriously screw up before he died. If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of the traitors. 

I would love it if GW would release Primarch models. Give them stats so that they can be played with sure, but you can always ban them from tournament play, and make them cost a huge number of points.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Please note before you go ANY further that Angels of Darkness is written from the point of view of one of the Fallen. It cannot be considered truth and in light of the events of Fallen Angels in which the fallen from that book actually appears you can see that he's spouting a load of bullhickey.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You assume I have not read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels? :grin:
You assume too much. :victory: You know what they say about that? It makes an ass out of u and me.  No hard feelings though.

And I wouldn't say that Angels of Darkness was a book written a first person dialogue with Astellan. Its about him confessing what he believed about the turning of fallen. His CONFESSION can be debated however the book itself doesn't side with him as a whole. The main part of the book was about the insecure fate that befell the Chaplain as there were secrets even kept from him.

Though we do not know why the Dark Angels did not arrive in time to Terra anything possible can be made into assumption including The Lion being a "fence watcher," or even the Night Lords crippling Lion before arriving to Terra. I am open to all possibilities that have a source until more evidence is revealed. If read I also said that I have been swayed to the idea of the Dark Angels Fence Watchers ever since reading Collected Visions. Though it is also written in a bias format. Which has not yet closed that possibility completley disregarded. (Though Im sure will be put to an end when they come out with a Heresy book concerning the destruction of Caliban.) The evidence that Astellan provided concerning the Lion's stance on fighting wars does not make him a liar, but it does give good perspective on a fallen DA who did not join chaos.

Concerning the idea that the Dark Angels thought the fallen all died, I would like you to provide a source for that. Because I don't think that was necessarly true. The Lion knew that there was Dark Powers in his planet the whole time (which you and I know from Fallen Angels :wink. So when Caliban exploded it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Lion would know that there would be potential survivors. The Hunt for the Fallen doesn't exactly have a beginning date, but safe to say they were being looked for.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Remember the Angels were third on the tally of Victories during the Crusade, so far we haven't heard about anything the Night Lords have done and even when we do we know who are regarded as better than the Angels and it certainly isn't them.


Exactly.

Probably like 80% of their missions were top secret seeing as how the emperor didn't want the imperium to know of what he was doing to keep everything looking spiffy.

And for those claiming that the Dark Angels know no fear... please.

The Night Lords were the only legion not to run away into the Eye of Terror when Horus died, and they retained their pre-heresy numbers (which shows how few of their members died and shows how good they are) and just chilled out at some campsite.

The Dark Angels however post heresy are so secretive and afraid of anyone finding out about their fallen because then they would be branded as traitors and hunted down like dogs by the other legions.

The Night Lords did not have this fear and they did not care.

So if anything, the Dark Angels fear for their lives, the Night Lords really fear nothing, not even chaos seeing as how they don't worship or even fear any of the powers and their reputation is based solely on their actions alone, not due to any daemonic mutations/aid.

People like the DA because of their secretive batman-like nature which really was borne due to their fear of other chapters, personally I find them bland, boring and nothing special.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Probably like 80% of their missions were top secret seeing as how the emperor didn't want the imperium to know of what he was doing to keep everything looking spiffy.
> 
> ...


Dude, that is one of their legions attributes that they have no fear. They aren’t afraid of the other finding out about the fallen, they are ashamed. Their secrecy is not born of fear, it is born of shame. They hunt the fallen like dogs because they did not possess the faith required for service and since they were once a part of their legion they are ashamed of their existence. They are not afraid, they are fearless. Yes, the night lords are good at scaring the piss out of normal humans but not astartes and certainly not Dark Angels. It probably came from their primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Dude, that is one of their legions attributes that they have no fear. They aren’t afraid of the other finding out about the fallen, they are ashamed. Their secrecy is not born of fear, it is born of shame. They hunt the fallen like dogs because they did not possess the faith required for service and since they were once a part of their legion they are ashamed of their existence. They are not afraid, they are fearless. Yes, the night lords are good at scaring the piss out of normal humans but not astartes and certainly not Dark Angels. It probably came from their primarch.


It's not shame.

Shame would be like the red rage the Blood Angels and their successor chapters have. They are not branded heretics but the chapter is ashamed and do their best to combat it or send those who have completely overdosed to the Black tower or the suicide squads.


It is stated in Angels of Darkness I think that if anyone outside of the elites of the chapter were to find out about the fallen, the chapter would be branded as 'traitors' which automatically would give them a death sentence hence their secrecy and their relentless pursuit of the fallen.

Take the Black Templars for example, a Chapter that publicly declare their shame but take part in a never ending crusade as repentance. Why can't the DA do so as well? 

Because their case cannot be forgiven so easily and they know this.

And all Astartes are _fearless _which basically translates into them not getting scared_ as much_ as an ordinary human but they all have their breaking point especially when dealing with chaos daemons.

It's why the GK's are sent to crazy daemon infested situations because not only are they all psykers, but their susceptibility to getting scared is far, far less than ordinary Astartes.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It's shame. It's not fear. They hunt the fallen in an attempt to recover their honor which they feel was besmirched by the fallen.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It's shame. It's not fear. They hunt the fallen in an attempt to recover their honor which they feel was besmirched by the fallen.


wow I have a feeling you didn't bother to read what I typed, I added some edits in btw.

If you read those then all I have to say is...


cake


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Not all chapters are fearless. The GK are because they are so indoctrinated they don't even know fear. Dark Angels are because they received that trait from their primarch. I believe they are the only ones who are actually fearless in the truest sense.

Also there are people outside the chapter that know about the fallen such as the emperor and the leaders of the unforgiven chapters. 

Also, they are fearless..... doesn't mean they are foolish. There is no reason to bring some stupid Ordo Hereticus lord down on their head for no reason.


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## dardle reesraf (Oct 31, 2009)

if the deamon primarchs come out of hiding, and charge the imperium head on, and same with the remaining loyalist primarchs, the chaos marines are screwed. f***ed. damned for all eternity. the lion, russ, khan, corax, guilliman , and vulkan all roled into one army, plus their full legions (assuming they form back together) far outweigh the chaos peeps. we win. pown'd!


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

malus Darkblade it is shame not fear and yes i have read all dark angels novels and i also play dark angels. Not all space marines are fearless. yes the have the rule "and they shall no no fear" but the dark angels are fearless and stuborn. the deathwing and ravenwing never have to take a morale check no matter what losses they take. they never fall back. So if it was fear that you claim why would they have this rule and no other chapter has it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Exactly.
> The Night Lords were the only legion not to run away into the Eye of Terror when Horus died, and they retained their pre-heresy numbers (which shows how few of their members died and shows how good they are) and just chilled out at some campsite.


The only ones...other than, you know, the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers :grin:

What's this bullsh*t about the Dark Angels not knowing fear because it's part of their geneseed? Where'd that fantasy spring from?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Also there are people outside the chapter that know about the fallen such as the emperor and the leaders of the unforgiven chapters.


Where does it say that the Emperor knows of the fallen? I'm pretty sure he was entombed within the Golden Throne when the whole fallen/luther betrayal act occured.

And the unforgiven chapters? You mean the chaos legions?



FORTHELION said:


> malus Darkblade it is shame not fear and yes i have read all dark angels novels and i also play dark angels. Not all space marines are fearless. yes the have the rule "and they shall no no fear" but the dark angels are fearless and stuborn. the deathwing and ravenwing never have to take a morale check no matter what losses they take. they never fall back. So if it was fear that you claim why would they have this rule and no other chapter has it.


K when you read about Astartes being fearless or when they themselves talk to normal humans or vice versa, it's just like a figure of speech.

The Astartes no matter how far removed they are from humanity are still human at the core.

Thus all Astartes have their breaking point, it's just much higher than a normal human hence why they are deemed _fearless _especially in the eyes of humans and themselves. It's like their sales pitch and why they're so valuable.

But they can break down like little girls if pushed hard enough. Chaos daemons are quite good at that.

Plus whatever the 'rulebook' of the table-top game says, it's just something you take into consideration when playing the board game, I'm speaking about fluff.



Baron Spikey said:


> The only ones...other than, you know, the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers :grin:


Heh true, the AL are just pure sexy but I think they moved to the Galactic East instead of the Eye of Terror mostly because they had a hidden agenda whereas the Night Lords just didn't give a shit about the loyalists.

As for the Word Bearers I'm not that knowledgeable about them so I don't know but according to some WH wiki sites, it says they fled as opposed to remaining or not venturing into the EoT.



Baron Spikey said:


> What's this bullsh*t about the Dark Angels not knowing fear because it's part of their geneseed? Where'd that fantasy spring from?


No clue, ask the DA fan boyZ.

OmG thEy hAvE n0 F33r!


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> The only ones...other than, you know, the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers :grin:
> 
> What's this bullsh*t about the Dark Angels not knowing fear because it's part of their geneseed? Where'd that fantasy spring from?


Part of their Geneseed? I always thought it was part all Space Marines training doctrine. You know "And they shall know no fear" It's just the Dark Angels take it to extremes it's just one of the quirks of their training and psychology.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Concerning the idea that the Dark Angels thought the fallen all died, I would like you to provide a source for that. Because I don't think that was necessarly true. The Lion knew that there was Dark Powers in his planet the whole time (which you and I know from Fallen Angels :wink. So when Caliban exploded it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the Lion would know that there would be potential survivors. The Hunt for the Fallen doesn't exactly have a beginning date, but safe to say they were being looked for.


Check the Angels of Death Codex my friend. And the Dark Angel Codex's both of them. As to the Lion knowing about Caliban HE might have known it but his Legion didn't.

Also what's with this idea that the Lion was the one who ordered the Fallen to be hunted down after Caliban exploded? His Legion never saw him after that event since he was taken by the Watchers in the dark! Jeez please read the fluff again, Lion dueled Luther in the Fortress, Lion won but couldn't bring himself to kill Luther, Luther badly wounds lion in response then realises what he's done. The Chaos Gods realise they've been foiled AGAIN and create a warp storm that tears apart the planet which was weakened after the orbital bombardment of the Dark Angels fleet. After that the Angels find the biggest part of the planet left is the Fortress which they rename The Rock (DO YA SMMMMEELLLLL etc) inside they find Luther insane and gibbering about the Lion coming back one day and the Watchers in the dark. 
Quite apart from the Information in the Codex's it's sheer logic to assume the fallen were all dead ...

THEY WERE ON A PLANET THAT EXPLODED IN A WARP STORM! The Angels didn't immediatley run around shouting "We need to find them quick!" they had the attitude "Heh killed your traitor asses goooooodd"



Malus Darkblade said:


> And the unforgiven chapters? You mean the chaos legions?


Read the Codex or Lex article then talk about the Dark Angels. It's clear you're coming at this from a point of ignorance. The Unforgiven are what the Dark Angels and their collective successor chapters refer to themselves as.



Malus Darkblade said:


> People like the DA because of their secretive batman-like nature which really was borne due to their fear of other chapters, personally I find them bland, boring and nothing special.


Ok dude we get it you like the Night Lords and don't like the Dark Angels but you're not presenting any evidence for the Night Lords beating the Angels. And the evidence that is presented to the contrary you're turning your nose up at. Like it or not the Dark Angels DON'T know fear it's one of their primary characteristics. They were the Third ranked legion in the Crusade behind the Luna Wolves and the Ultramarines.

Like it or not the Night Lords didn't achieve as much and shouting that they were probably secret missions... doesn't that just invalidate everything you've said about Night Haunter?

Alpharius and Corax relied on Secrecy and stealth they didn't care about people knowing about them or their tactics because that worked in their favor. If Night Haunter was a terror tactician he would want people to hear about what he did as it would make him even more effective. Like Horus said "If you want people crapping their pants send in Night Haunter" so all his missions can't have been secret otherwise populations wouldn't have been so scared of his legions predations. 

Like it or not the Night Lords weren't one of the big players in the Crusade or the Heresy they don't have the victory tally and the only action we know about them fighting was alongside two other Legions on Shirouth when Kurze fought well but didn't know when to stop and ended up attacking Rogal Dorn. And even there do you honestly think anybody would put Night Haunter in charge when you have Fulgrim and Dorn on station? Night Haunter was the guy you put in charge when you had no other choice.

Shouting endlessly that the Night Lords would win because they use fear when you have them going toe to toe with (we still don't have evidence that it happened) a Legion who's defining psychological characteristic is fearlessness is kind of whistling into the wind.



Malus Darkblade said:


> OmG thEy hAvE n0 F33r!


OmG thEy hAvE da F34r T4cT1cS N1gHt H4uNt3r z0 C00l ROFLLMAOLOLLOLOL

Glass houses my friend.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> Like it or not the Dark Angels DON'T know fear it's one of their primary characteristics.


Prove it or not. 
You keep saying that the absence of fear is a primary characteristic of the Dark Angels- exactly where did you get that idea because I've never ever heard that?

@Malus- of course the Night Lords fled at the end of the Heresy, if they'd just loitered about not trying very hard to hide they would have been wiped out.
The Word Bearers didn't go to the EoT they ventured to the Maelstrom which is close to the galactic centre rather than the galactic west.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Prove it or not.
> You keep saying that the absence of fear is a primary characteristic of the Dark Angels- exactly where did you get that idea because I've never ever heard that?


Again I have to say my friend look to the Codex. Not only does everything in the Dark Angels army list which isn't a tactical Marine have the Fearless rule in the older codex they're noted as being utterly without fear ready to stand their ground and fight to the end rather than giving the enemy the satisfaction of gaining ground on them.

"Since the Founding of their Legion at the Birth of the Imperium, the Space Marines of the Dark Angels have been dreaded by their enemies and held in awe by those they protect. Stubborn and Relentless in battle...."
Inquisitor Bastalek Grim: Dark Angels Codex 3rd Edition. (I think. It's the little skinny add on Codex they got after Angels of Death.)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> @Malus- of course the Night Lords fled at the end of the Heresy, if they'd just loitered about not trying very hard to hide they would have been wiped out.
> The Word Bearers didn't go to the EoT they ventured to the Maelstrom which is close to the galactic centre rather than the galactic west.


I'm certain the only reason they set up camp was due to the NH's orders seeing as how he predicted his own death and did not fight against it. With their Primarch dead, they had no reason to stay any longer.



Coder59 said:


> Read the Codex or Lex article then talk about the Dark Angels. It's clear you're coming at this from a point of ignorance. The Unforgiven are what the Dark Angels and their collective successor chapters refer to themselves as.


Brb going to embark on a crusade to repent for my ignorance. Not out of fear or shame, but ignorance, ok? It's such a broad and bland term that it could have meant anything.



Coder59 said:


> Ok dude we get it you like the Night Lords and don't like the Dark Angels but you're not presenting any evidence for the Night Lords beating the Angels. And the evidence that is presented to the contrary you're turning your nose up at. Like it or not the Dark Angels DON'T know fear it's one of their primary characteristics. They were the Third ranked legion in the Crusade behind the Luna Wolves and the Ultramarines.


I have nothing against the DA, just the fan boys spewing drool whenever their name is mentioned for reasons that escape me and are shaky.

The DA are not special super Space Marines, they know fear, it is not an attribute you can genetically remove or destroy through training. 

They are zealous and overly stubborn, that can give them the image of being fearless.



Coder59 said:


> Alpharius and Corax relied on Secrecy and stealth they didn't care about people knowing about them or their tactics because that worked in their favor.


The AL were the masters of espionage and thus a vast majority of their accomplishments are not known. 

Corax was not known for stealth tactics, he was known for his hit and run to fight another day tactic.

Don't forget that we as readers of this fictional universe are obviously privy to information a common citizen of the imperium or even higher ups do not have. You seem to forget this.



Coder59 said:


> If Night Haunter was a terror tactician he would want people to hear about what he did as it would make him even more effective. Like Horus said "If you want people crapping their pants send in Night Haunter" so all his missions can't have been secret otherwise populations wouldn't have been so scared of his legions predations.


Do the CIA broadcast all their missions and boast about them on their website? 

Of course some of their terror achievements/missions have become public knowledge (probably made public by their choice) but a vast majority went unseen due to the emperor's wishes.

So no. They don't want people to know more than they should or more than what they want people to know, their reputation precedes them.
Your logic is flawed.



Coder59 said:


> Like it or not the Night Lords weren't one of the big players in the Crusade or the Heresy they don't have the victory tally and the only action we know about them fighting was alongside two other Legions on Shirouth when Kurze fought well but didn't know when to stop and ended up attacking Rogal Dorn. And even there do you honestly think anybody would put Night Haunter in charge when you have Fulgrim and Dorn on station? Night Haunter was the guy you put in charge when you had no other choice.


Again we probably don't even know a fragment of what the NL were sent out to do by the emperor as his dirty grunts.

Fulgrim and his legion are known for their finesse in war. Want the least amount of collateral damage and precise surgical strikes? Go for the Emperor's Children.

Want to set up an impenetrable fortress? Go for Dorn

The Night Haunter is the guy you put in situations that would otherwise taint the image of the Astartes as stalwart defenders of man if made known. 

So yeah the NH you want on board a messy, ruthless mission even when you have all the other Primarchs available who probably don't have the stomach to accomplish (save Angron but he's just hard to control and sloppy).



Coder59 said:


> Shouting endlessly that the Night Lords would win because they use fear when you have them going toe to toe with


I never said that, I was merely pointing out that the DA are not special and that they have their breaking point, perhaps higher than other SM chapters. 



Coder59 said:


> (we still don't have evidence that it happened) a Legion who's defining psychological characteristic is fearlessness is kind of whistling into the wind.


Scroll up on their defining 'psychological characteristic '



Coder59 said:


> Again I have to say my friend look to the Codex. Not only does everything in the Dark Angels army list which isn't a tactical Marine have the Fearless rule in the older codex they're noted as being utterly without fear ready to stand their ground and fight to the end rather than giving the enemy the satisfaction of gaining ground on them.
> 
> "Since the Founding of their Legion at the Birth of the Imperium, the Space Marines of the Dark Angels have been dreaded by their enemies and held in awe by those they protect. Stubborn and Relentless in battle...."
> Inquisitor Bastalek Grim: Dark Angels Codex 3rd Edition. (I think. It's the little skinny add on Codex they got after Angels of Death.)


Lol that's your definition of fearless? As I mentioned, they're too stubborn to give ground but that doesn't make them void of the sensation of fear.

Fanboy much? You seem to be making grand statements out of thin air. Also Fearless rule? This is the Fluff section, the tabletop rules do not apply when it comes to Lore or at least not to any specific degree.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The DA are not special super Space Marines, they know fear, it is not an attribute you can genetically remove or destroy through training.
> 
> They are zealous and overly stubborn, that can give them the image of being fearless.


Dude you need to stop right there and go and read Horus Rising again. Space marines are trained to RESIST fear the fact that you think the DA have a higher breaking point isn't going to do the Night Lords any favours whatsoever when's the last time you saw any Space Marine panic?

Incidently you can brainwash fear out of people. 

Don't try and strip out what is written in the Codex, the primary source for fluff. Dark Angels = Fearless + Terminator/Fast Attack Specialists, or shall we strip away the Terminator Specialist First Company and the Fast Attack second company too? It's not fanboys dribbling it out it's written there in the codex for all too see, just look under the entry of virtually every single unit *Special Rules: Fearless* and don't try and pass that off as "Just a rule in a board game" this whole universe is based on board games. The rules are there to simulate the fluff. 

Likewise you need to get through this idea that the Night Lords are super special Chaos Marines due to them having a love for Terror Tactics. Terror Tactics do not = an automatic win especially against a full Legion of Marines. The Night Lords are a cool concept but they're bit part players even if they did engage the Dark Angels (still no evidence they did) they obviously didn't do a lot of damage to them since the Dark Angels showed up at Terra fighting fit.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> the Night Lords really fear nothing, not even chaos seeing as how they don't worship or even fear any of the powers and their reputation is based solely on their actions alone, not due to any daemonic mutations/aid.


The Night Lords are slowly losing their Legion to Chaos. The largest Night Lords warband is actually ruled by a Daemon Prince (Krieg Acerbus). Even some of the smaller Warbands (Warband of the Exalted) are led by possessed marines.

So firstly many Night Lords have already fallen to Chaos. 

They may not fear Chaos, but those who believe they stay true to Curze's teachings despise it and its hold over their Legion.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's not shame.
> 
> And all Astartes are _fearless _which basically translates into them not getting scared_ as much_ as an ordinary human but they all have their breaking point especially when dealing with chaos daemons.
> 
> It's why the GK's are sent to crazy daemon infested situations because not only are they all psykers, but their susceptibility to getting scared is far, far less than ordinary Astartes.


Firstly it is shame.

_Fearless_ doesn't mean you don't get scared as much, it means you can't feel fear - it is anathema to you. Astartes are bred for war, they know nothing else, it is beyond them to feel fear.

Also Astartes are not scared of Daemons (!!!!) - the Reason Grey Knights are used its because they are generally not susceptible to taint, and are trained and equipped to actually deal with Daemons, where as Astartes are not.



FORTHELION said:


> the deathwing and ravenwing never have to take a morale check no matter what losses they take. they never fall back. So if it was fear that you claim why would they have this rule and no other chapter has it.


Take into account that tabletop rules generally mean next to nothing in the background though.



Coder59 said:


> They were the Third ranked legion in the Crusade behind the Luna Wolves and the Ultramarines.


According to _Horus Rising_, the Imperial Fists came second. Also doesn't the Dark Angels codex (Im not sure, I don't have it) say that the Dark Angels came second?



Coder59 said:


> Like it or not the Night Lords weren't one of the big players in the Crusade or the Heresy they don't have the victory tally and the only action we know about them fighting was alongside two other Legions on Shirouth when Kurze fought well but didn't know when to stop and ended up attacking Rogal Dorn. And even there do you honestly think anybody would put Night Haunter in charge when you have Fulgrim and Dorn on station? Night Haunter was the guy you put in charge when you had no other choice.


Sorry, but the Night Lords were one of the Emperor's trump cards during the Great Crusade.

Night Haunter shed his humanity for the Emperor, he became the Monster to destroy Monsters, he did what needed to be done that the Emperor couldn't have been seen to be doing. He was the Emperor's sanctioned killer - damned to a life of fear and murder, shunned by all, but he was what the Emperor needed.

If you havn't done so I would recommend reading _Lord of the Night_ and _Soul Hunter_, they give a great insight into the Night Lords Legion.



Coder59 said:


> Shouting endlessly that the Night Lords would win because they use fear when you have them going toe to toe with (we still don't have evidence that it happened) a Legion who's defining psychological characteristic is fearlessness is kind of whistling into the wind.


The Night Lords knew that Fear tactics wouldn't have been _as_ effective against other Astartes, but that wasn't all they could do.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Night Lords knew that Fear tactics wouldn't have been _as_ effective against other Astartes, but that wasn't all they could.


This is true but when a Legions trump card tactic is rendered less than effective the legion as a whole will have less to fall back on and be fighting at a disadvantage.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Lol that's your definition of fearless? As I mentioned, they're too stubborn to give ground but that doesn't make them void of the sensation of fear.


If they stand in the face of fear and don't retreat? Sounds pretty textbook to me.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Fanboy much? You seem to be making grand statements out of thin air. Also Fearless rule? This is the Fluff section, the tabletop rules do not apply when it comes to Lore or at least not to any specific degree.


The same can be leveled at you. You obviously favour the chaos Legions in all things and hate the idea of the Night Lords being less than effective against anybody. Ignoring a Legions rules also gives you a lot of license to imprint your own ideas onto them rather than accepting what they are.

Allready stated about the rulebook being obvious starting point of the fluff so of course they apply. that's like writing about the World Eaters but saying they never experience their rages . Saying "i'm talking about the fluff not the rulebook", is like saying "I'm talking about the book of the film not the film."


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Night Lords are slowly losing their Legion to Chaos. The largest Night Lords warband is actually ruled by a Daemon Prince (Krieg Acerbus). Even some of the smaller Warbands (Warband of the Exalted) are led by possessed marines.
> 
> So firstly many Night Lords have already fallen to Chaos.
> 
> They may not fear Chaos, but those who believe they stay true to Curze's teachings despise it and its hold over their Legion.


I'm not saying none of them ever fell to Chaos.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly it is shame.
> 
> I'm not saying they have no shame of the Fallen's history. I look at it as shame within their own ranks as to how the Fallen came into existence and fear of anyone outside their chapter/legion knowing of the Fallen for the retribution that would be sure to follow.
> 
> ...


When I talk about fear, I don't mean the type where Imperial Guardsmen for example break down and start crying with their hands over their heads when they see something so horrible.

In my opinion, an Astartes feels fear in a soul-gut wrenching sort of way that physically manifests itself in a grimace or something similar.

A Space Marine's equivalent of fear could be of Brother Astartes turning traitor/to Chaos for example.

Or being trapped in the Warp and calling for aid and eventually resorting to accepting aid in whatever form it may be, perhaps even the helping hand of Chaos. (IE Mortarion damning his legion for the sake of rescue and not perishing in the warp or succumbing to incurable disease)

Or Fulgrim after realizing that his soul was consumed by the daemon in his sword?

Or Magnus, moments from perishing turning to Tzentech to save him and his dying world.

Why would the people mentioned in the above examples turn to such powers when they didn't fear their incoming doom? Perhaps because they feared succumbing to death without exacting revenge on their enemies and because they can't handle the concept of accepting death due to how they were created and the promise that they were immortal?

Yes an Astartes will never know fear when it takes the form of an Ork, xenos, Tyranid, and other physical beings. But when it comes to matters of the soul (Chaos, crazy alien worlds where the geometry/physics transcends that of a mortal mind ability to comprehend, etc.), due to their inability to deal with creatures of the immaterium and such matters, that helplessness transforms into a fear of sorts.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Yes an Astartes will never know fear when it takes the form of an Ork, xenos, Tyranid, and other physical beings. But when it comes to matters of the soul (Chaos, crazy alien worlds where the geometry/physics transcends that of a mortal mind ability to comprehend, etc.), due to their inability to deal with creatures of the immaterium and such matters, that helplessness transforms into a fear of sorts.


But that kind of fear is completely the opposite of the fear the Night Lords deal in. They spread fear through violence and dirty tricks not through incomprihensable concepts and warped environments.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> But that kind of fear is completely the opposite of the fear the Night Lords deal in. They spread fear through violence and dirty tricks not through incomprihensable concepts and warped environments.


woooooooosh


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> woooooooosh


Woosh all you like. The Night Lords are Murderers first everything else second. What you're talking about seems to be more in keeping with The Thousand Sons.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Marines don't feel fear in any sense. It is an alien emotion to them. The primarchs might be different however. The only primarch that I know of who is utterly without fear is the lion. The reason for the difference might be that primarchs have not recieved the same type of training as the marines.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The only primarch that I know of who is utterly without fear is the lion.


How did you come to that conclusion?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is suggested in decent of angels. It is suggested several times throughout the book. Also I would add angron to that list. Lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> It is suggested in decent of angels. It is suggested several times throughout the book. Also I would add angron to that list. Lol


Its suggested in _Descent of Angels_ that the Lion is the only Primarch that truly knows no fear? Sorry, but no it isn't!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes it does. It does several times. Never once is he portraited as frightened. On more than one occasion he his shown to be the example of absolute bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. I would believe that to be without fear.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes it does. It does several times. Never once is he portraited as frightened. On more than one occasion he his shown to be the example of absolute bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. I would believe that to be without fear.


Page references please.

And also when ever does it say that any other Primarch feels fear? The Lion is not unique among the Primarchs in that regard by a long shot.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You will have to wait for the pages since it would require me to reread the book. And fulgrim, Horus, ferrus I believe. Obviously mortarion. Other than that dik. Well maybe mort not sure. Lol


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Page references please.
> 
> And also when ever does it say that any other Primarch feels fear? The Lion is not unique among the Primarchs in that regard by a long shot.


Actually i give you an example strait off the top of my head. Not about Lion since I only read Descent of Angels once, it's my second least favourite 40k book. Although I remember vaguely something about Lion being the epitome of fearlessness in the face of the enemy. Although I think that had more to do with The Order rather than the Dark Angels. 

The Lightning Tower audiobook is basically about Rogal Dorn working through his fear and learning how to deal with it and identify it. All through the book he and others ask him the same question "What are you afraid of? What are you really afraid of?" He doesn't confront this fear like a normal human would but he eventually (with the help of Malcador the Sigilite) works through it and comes out the other side stronger. So there you go that's a Primarch feeling and dealing with Fear. 

I think there's some stuff about Horus dealing with fear in False Gods as well. And didn't Night Haunter try to claw his own eyes out in terror of the vision he had the first time he met the Big E?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Btw the gene seed connection I mentioned was referring to the fact that marines tend to be characteristically similar to their primarchs. this would make sense seeing that indoctrination occurs at a very young age, if the primarch that there gene-seed comes from has a distinct emotional characteristic it would make sense that it could play a substantial role in the development of the recruits mind. That along with their training is probably what makes the Dark Angels fearless.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Reading this post as a guest and realised I had to get stuck in.

Who can come back? Fluff is intentionally vague so there’s obviously allot of guess work here but if they’re still alive chances are they’ll turn up at some point. Well beaten out at this stage but what the hell:

El’Jonson – Alive - I’m not sure if he’ll simply rise up one day Jesus-style all by himself and get back to old ways, probably needs some kind of external event of the psychic variety to heal that Luther bolt. Maybe the watchers are up to the task but they’ve had a fair crack at it over the years and haven’t seemed to get anywhere. 

Corax – Dead – Hear me out! He seemed a little down in the dumps after his legions losses and the subsequent re-founding etc. And when he left he didn’t really have any “mission” so to speak so imo he picked the biggest chaos stronghold and went kamikaze on it. “Nevermore” sounded an awful lot like a valediction and doesn’t really strike the same chord as “I’ll be back”. But for this one I haven’t listened to Raven’s flight so it’s mostly speculation. 

Vulkan and Russ – Alive – same argument as the other Vulkan/Russ posts

Dorn and Guilliman – Dead – same as above.

Khan - ? – He’s alive if he managed to figure out how to work the webway or found some kind of safe house type location allowing him to use hit and run tactics, otherwise he would have more than likely been overwhelmed.

In regards to who would win between the Dark Angels and Night Lords if they met:

One on one – Haunter – Lion and Haunter both whooped other primarchs but jury is out in Lion’s case as to whether there was a sucker punch that contributed. 

Army versus army – DA – DA’s main weapon is Lion’s superior grasp of strategy even Astellan (fallen) admitted it. I think superior strategy would win over terror tactics. I’m not saying NL’s are a one trick pony I just think Lion would be well able for anything they come up with. Perhaps Curze might get somewhere if he played on Lion’s weakness and allowed Lion to underestimate him and then exhibit some form of unpredictability but I still think Lion would outmanoeuvre him.

Aswell as this apart from the usual tutelage that any primarch gets Curze learned his trade sneaking up and killing humans in the dark where he could rely on his genetic superiority, Lion grew up on Calliban fighting daemons and wild beasts not to mention leading armies. 

Also in relation to this “fear” topic that’s got everyone so worked up, even if space marines did have fear (which I doubt) the DA come from Calliban and fought daemons as men in the big bad jungles even before they became space marines so I don’t think they’re gonna be too worried by marines jumping out of the dark at them. 

The other thing that makes me lean towards the DA is their record in the crusades or rather the NL’s record. I don’t doubt the NL’s prowess and success after all they are a space marine legion but if their main selling point is being the deniable hatchet men of the emperor, called in to do dirty work it doesn’t really count for much. If these jobs were “dirty” and needed to be covered up it’s probably because it involved slaughtering planets of rebellious humans, even if said humans had pdf forces or even guard regiments it’s still not much of a challenge when you wield a legion. I’m not saying that’s all they did but it’s not like they spent the entirety of the crusade fighting orks, eldar and all the other more dangerous xenos. I know the DA supposedly destroyed a city full of civi’s but at least they were fighting orks at the time.
Ultimately the NL’s were never meant to defeat the DA’s just delay them for which the NL’s were probably the best choice (maybe second only to the Alpha Legion who were busy elsewhere). Horus probably couldn’t spare the resources to defeat them and in any case he didn’t need to at the time.

Finally why did it take DA 10 years to get to Terra?

Warp storms – self explanatory and the main contributor to dela imo.

NL hit and runs.

The rest are only small contributors

Paranoia – Within and without. By this stage word had more than likely filtered back that Perturabo had been sneaky so rather than rushing headlong Lion had to approach with care as he probably wasn’t sure who he could trust. Also within his own legion he must have been harbouring doubts, otherwise he wouldn’t have sent Luther and co back.

Size of fleet – He was travelling with a full fleet it’s been well documented in the fluff that large fleets take time to mobilize and travel.

Warmaster – More speculation but he may also have been delaying for dramatic effect so that when he does arrive he looks like the hero. Pretty unlikely but the Lion was fairly ambitious so I wouldn’t put it past him. 

Dragged out I know but I gotta start somewhere...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Reading this post as a guest and realised I had to get stuck in.
> 
> Who can come back? Fluff is intentionally vague so there’s obviously allot of guess work here but if they’re still alive chances are they’ll turn up at some point. Well beaten out at this stage but what the hell:
> 
> El’Jonson – Alive. Maybe the watchers are up to the task but they’ve had a fair crack at it over the years and haven’t seemed to get anywhere.


Honestly his whole slumbering for 10k years is stupid, especially for a Primarch, and in my opinion simply a plot device by GW to put him out of the way so they can focus on the money making business that is the universe of a post-heresy leaderless WH40k. If the imperium had a Primarch to lead them, they would have beaten the chaos forces long a go.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Corax – Dead – Hear me out! He seemed a little down in the dumps after his legions losses and the subsequent re-founding etc. And when he left he didn’t really have any “mission” so to speak so imo he picked the biggest chaos stronghold and went kamikaze on it. “Nevermore” sounded an awful lot like a valediction and doesn’t really strike the same chord as “I’ll be back”. But for this one I haven’t listened to Raven’s flight so it’s mostly speculation.


The nevermore bit was just something GW threw in for laughs and to tie it to the original poem.

Also he was last seen heading towards the EoT, we don't know if he made it inside or took a detour at the last second lol.

Raven's Flight just features his battle on Istivaan, and not on anything post-heresy

Plus I don't think the Imperium and all their secretive organizations would let a Primach, especially with their numbers so diminished, waltz into the EoT and become a potential threat or lose such a valuable member.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Dorn and Guilliman – Dead – same as above.


They only recovered Dorn's hand apparently and apparently his skeleton according to some codexes, whatever GW is full of retcons.

I still think Gulliman is healing in the stasis tube. For the naysayers, don't forget this is WH40K and reality doesn't influence this made up universe.




NiceGuyEddy said:


> In regards to who would win between the Dark Angels and Night Lords if they met:
> 
> One on one – Haunter – Lion and Haunter both whooped other primarchs but jury is out in Lion’s case as to whether there was a sucker punch that contributed.


The Lion did not woop Russ. It's like you said, he simply sucker punched him when he let his guard down because Russ was laughing at why they were fighting and Lion, being an inherently emo Primarch, couldn't stand it.

If anything, I'd wager that the Haunter would easily take on the Lion. Firstly, he is the most savage and sadistic of the Primarchs and secondly, he easily beat up Rogal Dorn who is arguably the fastest of the Primarchs. This is based off his nickname which I forget, the golden blur or something like that.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Army versus army – DA – DA’s main weapon is Lion’s superior grasp of strategy even Astellan (fallen) admitted it. I think superior strategy would win over terror tactics. I’m not saying NL’s are a one trick pony I just think Lion would be well able for anything they come up with. Perhaps Curze might get somewhere if he played on Lion’s weakness and allowed Lion to underestimate him and then exhibit some form of unpredictability but I still think Lion would outmanoeuvre him.


To be honest, all the Primarchs or a majority of them are labeled as being amazing tacticians (off the top of my head: Alpharius, Horus, Fulgrim, Guliman, Dorn, the Lion), and while I don't like this shared overlapping of genius, I don't think it's logical to state that the Lion was the best amongst them all.

If anything, I'd say Fulgrim was a master of tactics and his obsessive need to attain perfection in whatever matter he pursues led him to taking over an entire alien world, with superior technology to the imperium and weapons capable of killing SM easily, in a month and surprising Horus and his battle-ready entire fleet with his sudden appearance behind their flank.

Alpharius is in my opinion a master of tactics in that he can truly take any scenario and mold it to his wishes or turn a defeat in a victory. His genius lies in his adaptability and his minute to minute ability to assess a battle and plan accordingly on the fly but most especially before the battle even begins.

Take Batman for example, and his ability to take on superhuman enemies due to planning ahead and having backup situations for even his backup plans.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Aswell as this apart from the usual tutelage that any primarch gets Curze learned his trade sneaking up and killing humans in the dark where he could rely on his genetic superiority, Lion grew up on Calliban fighting daemons and wild beasts not to mention leading armies.


There were no daemons on Caliban, not to my knowledge at least. Just huge local fauna that the locals came to call as monsters.

The Nightlords in my opinion were the best legion when it came to nighttime battles due to their superior night-vision and their ninja-like battle abilities.




NiceGuyEddy said:


> Also in relation to this “fear” topic that’s got everyone so worked up, even if space marines did have fear (which I doubt) the DA come from Calliban and fought daemons as men in the big bad jungles even before they became space marines so I don’t think they’re gonna be too worried by marines jumping out of the dark at them.


The Lion's growing up in the dark forests of Caliban simply led to his paranoia, his fear and mistrust of others resulting from hiding in the shadows and watching the monsters of the forests and looking out for them.

Apparently they were too much for even him to handle alone because he required the use of a large army to vanquish all of them over the span of ten years, hence his staying to the shadows and watching out for them bit.

If anything, I'd call that a display of _cowardice_, but of course the fan boys would call it a display of survival technique lol.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> The other thing that makes me lean towards the DA is their record in the crusades or rather the NL’s record. I don’t doubt the NL’s prowess and success after all they are a space marine legion but if their main selling point is being the deniable hatchet men of the emperor, called in to do dirty work it doesn’t really count for much. If these jobs were “dirty” and needed to be covered up it’s probably because it involved slaughtering planets of rebellious humans, even if said humans had pdf forces or even guard regiments it’s still not much of a challenge when you wield a legion. I’m not saying that’s all they did but it’s not like they spent the entirety of the crusade fighting orks, eldar and all the other more dangerous xenos. I know the DA supposedly destroyed a city full of civi’s but at least they were fighting orks at the time.


Their dirty work probably was hidden from their offical records and perhaps even to the extent that only 10-20% of what they did was made known.

I wouldn't say they were simply sent to take out rebellious PDF/human forces but were probably sent to alien worlds pitched in eternal darkness or what have you.

Truth be told, I don't think anyone truly has a grasp as to what those missions were really about but I wouldn't say they were not dangerous at all.

The DA were the poster boys for the whole knightly-honor image and so they would have demanded that all their battles become known and they weren't restricted to the whims and wishes of the emperor's need for someone to do his dirty work.

I don't think the NL were even allowed to travel on their own and conquer worlds they chose to control, they were probably kept on a tight leash so that the emperor could use them whenever he spotted trouble.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Lion did not woop Russ. It's like you said, he simply sucker punched him when he let his guard down because Russ was laughing at why they were fighting and Lion, being an inherently emo Primarch, couldn't stand it.
> 
> If anything, I'd wager that the Haunter would easily take on the Lion. Firstly, he is the most savage and sadistic of the Primarchs and secondly, he easily beat up Rogal Dorn who is arguably the fastest of the Primarchs. This is based off his nickname which I forget, the golden blur or something like that.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I just think tactically the Lion has the edge over Curze, not necessarily all the other primarchs. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> There were no daemons on Caliban, not to my knowledge at least. Just huge local fauna that the locals came to call as monsters.


Pretty sure those monsters were warp touched at least but I haven't read descent of angels in a while.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Apparently they were too much for even him to handle alone because he required the use of a large army to vanquish all of them over the span of ten years, hence his staying to the shadows and watching out for them bit.


In fairness there was virtually a planet full of them and not even a primarch can be everywhere at once lol. And the army was earned by subjugating all the other orders and uniting them, some with diplomacy some through battle.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Their dirty work probably was hidden from their offical records and perhaps even to the extent that only 10-20% of what they did was made known.
> 
> I wouldn't say they were simply sent to take out rebellious PDF/human forces but were probably sent to alien worlds pitched in eternal darkness or what have you.
> 
> ...


Fair points can't really find any fluff to contradict them. From what we do know I think Caliban shaped the Lion and the DA into a strong and experienced army that is probably more insulated against fear and terror tactics than most that aswell as the Lion's tactician mantle gives them the edge imo. I understand that inevitably there is no way to prove whether or not the Lion could outguess NL hit and run/stealth/terror tactics but I really cant see the NL's managing anything more than a stalemate at best.

I'm not saying the DA are the strongest out there, I dont like them all that much myself, I just think some legion's tend to do better against others depending on the situations eg I think the Iron Warriors (one of the best siege breakers) would have very little problem in breaking into a Death Guard (for example) citadel, the White Scars would do better against the Space Wolves in an open field (better mobility) or on the other hand the White Scars would probably not have much success besieging a Imperial Fist fortification.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Fair points can't really find any fluff to contradict them. From what we do know I think Caliban shaped the Lion and the DA into a strong and experienced army that is probably more insulated against fear and terror tactics than most that aswell as the Lion's tactician mantle gives them the edge imo. I understand that inevitably there is no way to prove whether or not the Lion could outguess NL hit and run/stealth/terror tactics but I really cant see the NL's managing anything more than a stalemate at best.


But whatever the DA experienced on Caliban prior to being found is seen as normal for Space Marines and SM history, so I don't think those experiences alone could shape them into legions more fearless than others.

All Astartes legions are fearless to the same extent in my opinion, but all have their breaking point.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> All Astartes legions are fearless to the same extent in my opinion, but all have their breaking point.


Breaking point? Are you trying to say that pain threshold = fear? For one that not exactly what it is and two no DA have no threshold.... for that matter neither do GK. Their threshold, if there is one, is far beyond their bodies’ breaking point. They would die first.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Breaking point? Are you trying to say that pain threshold = fear? For one that not exactly what it is and two no DA have no threshold.... for that matter neither do GK. Their threshold, if there is one, is far beyond their bodies’ breaking point. They would die first.


??????????


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Breaking point refers to the point at which someone reaches a certain stress threshold at which they will willfully submit. Usually means pain typically used in reference to interrogations.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Usually means pain typically used in reference to interrogations.


I would have mentioned it in that context if I was talking about the Inquisition.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well that is the only conceivable way they could be brought to the breaking point since we know that they don't retreat no matter what the odds or situation. We know from lore that their legion is fearless. But back to the topic I would have to say that the only primarchs that is likely to be alive is the lion. It seems rather unlikely that any of the other primarchs are still alive besides Guilliman who would die if he was brought out of stasis.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> We know from lore that their legion is fearless.


Words of wisdom:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its suggested in _Descent of Angels_ that the Lion is the only Primarch that truly knows no fear? Sorry, but no it isn't!





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How did you come to that conclusion?





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Page references please.
> 
> And also when ever does it say that any other Primarch feels fear? The Lion is not unique among the Primarchs in that regard by a long shot.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wow arguments that I already heard and countered...... hmmmm brilliant tactic! A+ on that . :laugh: Oh others did aswell.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> You will have to wait for the pages since it would require me to reread the book. And fulgrim, Horus, ferrus I believe. Obviously mortarion. Other than that dik. Well maybe mort not sure. Lol





gen.ahab said:


> Btw the gene seed connection I mentioned was referring to the fact that marines tend to be characteristically similar to their primarchs. this would make sense seeing that indoctrination occurs at a very young age, if the primarch that there gene-seed comes from has a distinct emotional characteristic it would make sense that it could play a substantial role in the development of the recruits mind. That along with their training is probably what makes the Dark Angels fearless.


You still posted no proof of your claim and thus countered nothing.

And you imply that because the Lion is supposedly the only fearless Primarch, the DA recruits obviously picked up this seemingly unique trait, and in addition to the vague training methods you mentioned, they are without a doubt incapable of feeling a shred of fear and are alone amongst the Astartes in this.

You convinced me truly.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I said that he is the only one that I know who has never experienced fear. All others have to my knowledge and I never said that their training methods were different in any way to other chapters, however if their primarch was in fact fearless, as fallen angels seems to suggest, it could provide a reason for them being essentially fearless. However the burden of proof is not solely upon me, provide some support for your arguments. 

Also, I don't know why I was sighting decent of angels. I was thinking about fallen angels. For that I must apologies.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

My proof lies in the fact that nowhere does it state a Primarch outright fears something or that the Lion is the superman of Primarchs, especially seeing as how he used to 'hide' in the shadows of the Caliban forests where dangerous beasts lurked around.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I did not say if was superman I said that he seemed to be without fear. Which is suggested throughout the book fallen angels. Also I did say that angron would probably be considered to be without fear as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Honestly his whole slumbering for 10k years is stupid, especially for a Primarch





Malus Darkblade said:


> I still think Gulliman is healing in the stasis tube. For the naysayers, don't forget this is WH40K and reality doesn't influence this made up universe.


So, you think the Lion being 'asleep' (by some stretch of definition of the word) is stupid, but Guilliman healing in Stasis isn't?!

The point is that Stasis freezes time, anything within it emerges exactly as they were when they were interred into it. Guilliman healing in Stasis is impossible, and comes from reports of Pilgrims... the Human mind sees what it wants to see after all.



Malus Darkblade said:


> If the imperium had a Primarch to lead them, they would have beaten the chaos forces long a go.


Hardly. If a Primarch had remained it would hardly make a differance.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Plus I don't think the Imperium and all their secretive organizations would let a Primach, especially with their numbers so diminished, waltz into the EoT and become a potential threat or lose such a valuable member.


The Inquisition could hardly stop a Primarch... and they would be stupid to even try, and they know that.



Malus Darkblade said:


> There were no daemons on Caliban, not to my knowledge at least


There were Daemons on Caliban.



Malus Darkblade said:


> If anything, I'd call that a display of _cowardice_, but of course the fan boys would call it a display of survival technique lol.


I would call it _rationality_. It is by no definition of the word _cowardice_.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> And the army was earned by subjugating all the other orders and uniting them, some with diplomacy some through battle.


It was mostly Luther that united the Knightly Orders, not El'Jonson.



gen.ahab said:


> Which is suggested throughout the book fallen angels.


And yet we are still to see proof


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So, you think the Lion being 'asleep' (by some stretch of definition of the word) is stupid, but Guilliman healing in Stasis isn't?!
> 
> The point is that Stasis freezes time, anything within it emerges exactly as they were when they were interred into it. Guilliman healing in Stasis is impossible, and comes from reports of Pilgrims... the Human mind sees what it wants to see after all.


I think it's silly compared to being entombed in a stasis tube. At least we know why Gulliman has been inanimate for 10 thousand years. 

What, are the Watchers in the Dark sedating the Lion?

Yes I know you mentioned it before, the whole hope thing and being put in statis moments before perishing but meh I still think we don't know the physical limitations of a Primarch, so whose to say they can't heal over the span of _10 thousand _years?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Hardly. If a Primarch had remained it would hardly make a differance.


You really don't think if a Primarch was up and ready in the post-heresy era, especially the Lion, it wouldn't have made a difference in the imperium's battle for supremacy? He would without a doubt be the most intelligent and tactical member of the imperium. His presence alone would inspire the masses and symbolize hope.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Inquisition could hardly stop a Primarch... and they would be stupid to even try, and they know that.


There are some shady and powerful forces in the imperium, I'm sure they could do a thing or too to prevent even a Primarch from abandoning them, especially in a time of need.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would call it _rationality_. It is by no definition of the word _cowardice_.


If Ferrus Manus for example could take on a Ctan construct, surely the Lion could take on some large xenomorph? And if so, why didn't he?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What, are the Watchers in the Dark sedating the Lion?


:laugh: Read between the Lines. The Watchers are very powerful psychic/xenos....THINGIES! They've got him in some form of stasis, or Cryogenic freeze. I don't believe for a second you honestly though he was just having a nap.



Malus Darkblade said:


> You really don't think if a Primarch was up and ready in the post-heresy era, especially the Lion, it wouldn't have made a difference in the imperium's battle for supremacy? He would without a doubt be the most intelligent and tactical member of the imperium. His presence alone would inspire the masses and symbolize hope.


Not even a Primarch could be everywhere at once. Lion has been kept inside The Rock for 10k years now and not even the Dark Angels know he's there. It's The Watchers in the Dark who have him. 





Malus Darkblade said:


> There are some shady and powerful forces in the imperium, I'm sure they could do a thing or too to prevent even a Primarch from abandoning them, especially in a time of need.


Well i guess we shall see how powerful the Ofcio Assassinorum is in the Upcoming Nemesis novel won't we. Regardless of fanboyism and denunciation the only record of a primarch being killed by something other than a Primarch or a walking man god is.... Night haunter. And even that was because he stood there and let them do it.





Malus Darkblade said:


> If Ferrus Manus for example could take on a Ctan construct, surely the Lion could take on some large xenomorph? And if so, why didn't he?


There were a lot more Daemon Beasts on Caliban than just the one. He couldn't exterminate them all single handed. The fact that he survived a decade on Caliban a death world full of Daemon Critters, while being butt ass naked and totally unarmed says he's one tough bastard to me. He probably did rip a few of them in half he would have had too just to survive. But one naked Primarch Vs Planet of Deamon Monsters.....don't be stupid.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> My proof lies in the fact that nowhere does it state a Primarch outright fears something .


Wasnt Horus, the big guy, terrified of Fulgrim when Fulgrim brought Ferrus Manus's head to him and told him that he was corrupted by a demon?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> Wasnt Horus, the big guy, terrified of Fulgrim when Fulgrim brought Ferrus Manus's head to him and told him that he was corrupted by a demon?


He was supposedly horrified, which is different than fear.

Someone is horrified for example when he realizes something really bad just happened,


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> :laugh: Read between the Lines. The Watchers are very powerful psychic/xenos....THINGIES! They've got him in some form of stasis, or Cryogenic freeze. I don't believe for a second you honestly though he was just having a nap.


They say he is slumbering. There's a big difference between that and being put in stasis. 

He is possibly in a comatose state due to the psychic battle he underwent with Luther but if he was in stasis tube like Guilliman it would have been mentioned obviously.



Coder59 said:


> Not even a Primarch could be everywhere at once. Lion has been kept inside The Rock for 10k years now and not even the Dark Angels know he's there. It's The Watchers in the Dark who have him.


The upper members know exactly where he is.

Oh you don't say? I thought it was the SoB who had him.



Coder59 said:


> Well i guess we shall see how powerful the Ofcio Assassinorum is in the Upcoming Nemesis novel won't we. Regardless of fanboyism and denunciation the only record of a primarch being killed by something other than a Primarch or a walking man god is.... Night haunter. And even that was because he stood there and let them do it.


Ok and.... ? I think your randomness is a bit too much.



Coder59 said:


> There were a lot more Daemon Beasts on Caliban than just the one. He couldn't exterminate them all single handed. The fact that he survived a decade on Caliban a death world full of Daemon Critters, while being butt ass naked and totally unarmed says he's one tough bastard to me. He probably did rip a few of them in half he would have had too just to survive. But one naked Primarch Vs Planet of Deamon Monsters.....don't be stupid.


You're quite possibly the most idiotic of posters I've come across on these forums, from your blind fan boyism to your spittle induced rebuttals, your posts always give me a headache to decipher.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And yet we are still to see proof


Again, I don't really care to read through the book a second time and list off the pages to you, I don't really care enough. If you want you can read through again and pay attention to the instances where they are talking about his character or how he behaves throughout the book but I am not going to run through in an attempt to gain anyone’s approval. It is in there though. :laugh: So until I read through the book again, which won't happen, or you do this will just have to be another instance where two people will just have to agree to disagree.k:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They say he is slumbering. There's a big difference between that and being put in stasis.


Why? How? 

Why do they specifically need to say "The Watchers shoved him in a Stasis Tube" that's like reading a book and taking every single nuance of language as verbatim. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> The upper members know exactly where he is.


Really?

They know about Luther. Not about The Lion. You've either never read the Codex or you're getting the two mixed up.
There has never been a single piece of fluff to say that the Inner Circle has any clue where Lion is. Again read some fluff before you post.




Malus Darkblade said:


> You're quite possibly the most idiotic of posters I've come across on these forums, from your blind fan boyism to your spittle induced rebuttals, your posts always give me a headache to decipher.


Yes of course I am. Because I actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to an army I play rather than just ranting endlessly against them. What's blind fanboyish about my previous post? Or did Lion not spend that decade in the forest on his own? Learn your Lore, read some books and dump the fan theories them get back to me.

Personal Insults = I'm wrong but don't want to admit it.


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## Aedistopholes (Mar 3, 2010)

11 pages of arguing the same things over and over and over again.

That being said, I'm willing to put in my two cents worth 

Just because you're afraid of someone doesn't mean you won't fight them.
Sometimes brute force DOES win over carefully laid plans and strategies.
If Games-Workshop (sorry, simplifying to GW just brings back Metal Gear Solid memories) hasn't said someone is inexplicably dead, don't count them out even when logic or rumor would dictate otherwise. Games-Workshop, like other companies (particularly tv show producers), tends to keep certain possibilities open just in case the story ever begins to get stale and they need to add a twist to it to keep people buying their product or conversely twisting the story to make in interesting enough to attract new players/reader/fanatics.

These are lessons from real life. Here are some relevant points of interest concerning Warhammer 40k specifically:

Time doesn't work the same way in the warp as it does out of the warp and the distortion seems to be enhanced if the warp is particularly frothy (I had a different word in mind but it was on the tip of my proverbial tongue). In the Black Library books, they mention this effect all the time. One book, the second book of the Grey Knights Omnibus, actually contains and takes place on a planet that dropped into the warp only to reappear 100 years later. On the planet, however, 1000 years had taken place. This can be applied to two of the arguments that have been presented in this thread. First, concerning the Lion and his decade-long return to Terra, the warp was very frothy at the time, as has been pointed out previously in this thread, and so it is entirely possible that a ten year long trip may have felt like a year long trip to the members of the fleet. If you don't particularly want to believe that, then consider that the time it takes to travel through the warp is dependent on the state of the warp at the time. This is why the Imperium tends to use stable routes that are well traveled. All it would take is for the warp to be a little frothy all the way between where the Lion started and Terra for what would normally take a year to take a decade. The second point that this mechanism can be applied to is the Primarchs that supposedly went into the Eye of Terror or otherwise the Warp (not including Khan because the Webway has its own mechanisms concerning time as well). If a Primarch were to disappear into the Eye of Terror, which I believe everyone will agree is very very very frothy, then it is possible that in the rest of the Imperium ten thousand years could have while a lot less could have passed in whatever part the Primarchs are fighting in. I'm not necessarily saying that this is what I believe happened, but it is a possibility with the way that Games-Workshop has set things up.

Concerning the Primarchs ability to regenerate, I do believe that a Primarch would necessarily be able to recover from any wound short of decapitation or otherwise dismemberment. Whether or not this could be done in perfect stasis is debatable.

I do not believe a Primarch or anyone else for that matter could regenerate in perfect stasis. I also don't believe, however, that the Imperium has managed perfect stasis either. This belief is not based on any empirical evidence to the contrary, but is simply how I choose to understand the situation and the Imperium's ability to create technology that actually works the way that it is supposed to and doesn't deteriorate with time.

Of course, if none of the Black Library stuff is considered canon, then the majority of my argument just went out the window besides the common sense stuff.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Here is my take on all the loyalist primarchs.

Sanguinius, ferrus manus, Dorn and Guilleman are dead or dying so they cannot fight at all.period.

Russ, Khan, Vulkan and Corax are missing. I believe that Vulkan, Russ and Corax can survive. I mean if Dorn could survive the iron cage incident after being slapped around by curze then surely the other primarch could survive. Vulkan is said to come back when all 9 of his artifacts are found. I believe at least 3 of them are currently in Salamanders possession. Khan got lost in the webway and I believe that there is a very slim chance that if the imperium somehow reached Commorah then they might find Khan being in a bery long torture that they could rescue him from!

The lion is said to be "asleep" in Caliban somewhere being healed by the "watcher in the dark". It is said somewhere (cannot remember where though sorry!) that the emperor himself knows that the lion is asleep and still alive.

and that is my story.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The point is that Stasis freezes time, anything within it emerges exactly as they were when they were interred into it. Guilliman healing in Stasis is impossible, and comes from reports of Pilgrims... the Human mind sees what it wants to see after all.


I just came across a post on another forum where someone mentions that according to Warhammer 40,000: Battle Manual by Rick Priestly, time flows within stasis fields but at a very slow rate.

I don't have this manual but perhaps you or someone else can confirm?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I just came across a post on another forum where someone mentions that according to Warhammer 40,000: Battle Manual by Rick Priestly, time flows within stasis fields but at a very slow rate.
> 
> I don't have this manual but perhaps you or someone else can confirm?


Actually, come to think about it - that might actually be correct. I'll dig around and see what I can find.

But anyway, Guilliman is presumed to have been 'killed' by the Anathame. The same blade that struck Horus down, and Horus couldn't heal from it. Even if time still flows (only very slowly) within Stasis, given the nature of Guilliman's wound, it would still be impossible to heal.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It’s a stasis field not a time dilation field. A stasis field freezes time within a set area the dilation field merely slows time in that area. Stasis field implies no action or progress is taking place within the field. However, even if it merely slowed time in that set area that would only mean that he is getting closer and closer to death every second.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> However, even if it merely slowed time in that set area that would only mean that he is getting closer and closer to death every second.


True it can go both ways.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually, come to think about it - that might actually be correct. I'll dig around and see what I can find.
> 
> But anyway, Guilliman is presumed to have been 'killed' by the Anathame. The same blade that struck Horus down, and Horus couldn't heal from it. Even if time still flows (only very slowly) within Stasis, given the nature of Guilliman's wound, it would still be impossible to heal.


But they only went to Davin after being goaded by Erebus and also due to the emperor being far away.

If the emperor was 'alive', I'm certain he would know a way to heal him.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He may be able to revive him but it seems as though he is too far gone.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Prolly when/if the big E comes back with a bang, he'll save Robute and all the other primarchs will coincidentally return


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well that would be the final battle against chaos would it not? That would be one hell of fight. lol


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Prolly when/if the big E comes back with a bang, he'll save Robute and all the other primarchs will coincidentally return


Exept for Dorn, whom Dre keeps telling me is dead....


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Again..... Dorn, Ferrus and the pixy are kaput.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

well we have his hand, we can rebuild him, we have.... had... maybe had the technology to rebuild him maybe nobody remembers.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well we have the lion and khan........... maybe the imperium will survive.:laugh:


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Pg 15, SM Codex, bottom of page 'The Shrine of the Primarch'

summary of last two paragraphs;

Guilliman's body sit on a marble throne within a stasis field, this field isolates Guilliman from the time-stream, *everything within this field is trapped in time and can neither change or decay* however some say that his body is slowly healing and his wounds show 'mysterious signs of healing" some dimiss this going back to the fact it it impossible for change to occur in stasis.

The Primarchs had the same implants as post-Heresy Marines? if so;

Pg 10 - 11 SM codex; A SM when created has a larraman's organ, which ,when wounded, "the blood forms an instant layer of scar tissue" protecting the wound, in effect this organ would have functioned automatically upon Fulgrim wounding Guilliman, would it not? and it is unrealistic to believe the wound hadnt healed at all once sustained, what the Ultramarines were there with a stasis tank to stick him in?

and in relation to the Lion;
they have implant, sus-an membrane, which can place a Sm into a voluntary state of animation, *"in which he can survive for centuries"*

i have not read any BL books and cannot make a dignified response into the other matters discussed, but i believe they can be taken into the argument as valid points


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> But they only went to Davin after being goaded by Erebus and also due to the emperor being far away.
> 
> If the emperor was 'alive', I'm certain he would know a way to heal him.


Whats that got to do with anything? 

I said that Guilliman is presumed to have been wounded by the Anathame, the same blade which Horus couldn't heal from outside of Stasis. It is therefore safe to also assume that Guilliman (having the same physiology as Horus) couldn't heal either, regardless of whether or not time flows (albeit very slowly) within Stasis, which the above quote by _WarlordKaptainGrishnak_ shows us it doesn't.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whats that got to do with anything?
> 
> I said that Guilliman is presumed to have been wounded by the Anathame, the same blade which Horus couldn't heal from outside of Stasis. It is therefore safe to also assume that Guilliman (having the same physiology as Horus) couldn't heal either, regardless of whether or not time flows (albeit very slowly) within Stasis, which the above quote by _WarlordKaptainGrishnak_ shows us it doesn't.


My point was that Horus's only solution at the time of receiving his wound was to head to Davin and get healed by the chaos powers since the emperor was light years away and unaware of the situation.

Had the emperor have been close by, he most definitely would of had a cure for Horus's dilemma.

Guillaman being put in a stasis field, would be capable of getting healed if the emperor had not been entombed within the Golden Throne.

My main point being that Guillaman still has a chance to be rescued when or if the emperor returns, assuming he isn't slowly healing already but we know your stance on that :biggrin:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The way the fluff is going something is eventually going to happen can't actually tell right now what its going to be, but it defiantly has to be something as absurd as the resurrection of the emperor or the return of the primarchs to sustain the retarded stalemate the 40k universe needs. (I mean have you read all the fluff from all the various recent official sources, I mean quite literally the only forces doing well these days are the -Dark eldar-Daemons-Nids-Necrons) Its almost to the points where they have painted themselves into a corner fluff wise.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> My point was that Horus's only solution at the time of receiving his wound was to head to Davin and get healed by the chaos powers since the emperor was light years away and unaware of the situation.
> 
> Had the emperor have been close by, he most definitely would of had a cure for Horus's dilemma.
> 
> ...


He might have had a cure for Horus/Guilliman, the Emperor would obviously have the most indepth knowledge allied with millenia of wisdom to aid his 'Sons' but the Kinebrach weapon was probably something unlike anything he'd come across before.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> He might have had a cure for Horus/Guilliman, the Emperor would obviously have the most indepth knowledge allied with millenia of wisdom to aid his 'Sons' but the Kinebrach weapon was probably something unlike anything he'd come across before.


Indeed. 



And interestingly the Anathame is mentioned in _A Thousand Sons_.

"Nor was this a normal blade, it was sentient. The word didn't fit, but it was the most appropriate one Magnus could find. It was forged by alien metallurgists in ways too inhuman to be understood, imbued with the power of the fates. It was a nemesis weapon, crafted to slay without mercy. Magnus recoiled from the blade, horrified that an intelligent race would dare craft such a dreadful tool of destruction. What reason could there be to bring such a vile thing into being?"


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If one of the primarchs got on the goldenthrone would it be possible for the emperor to get off and heal? Or would the primarch die cause he wasn't strong enough.

Theoretically if someone as powerful as Magnus (but obviously not him due to his alliegence to Tzeench) sat on the thrown could he sit there and hold the webway so that the Emperor could heal and kick some ass? I was read somewhere maybe the thread or collected visions though i can't find it that after the emperor's fight with horus he was left wounded beyond his ability to ever recouperate. but i just wanted to check.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> He might have had a cure for Horus/Guilliman, the Emperor would obviously have the most indepth knowledge allied with millenia of wisdom to aid his 'Sons' but the Kinebrach weapon was probably something unlike anything he'd come across before.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The emperor is no ordinary human if one could even deem that he is to begin with (insert old one theory). He has lived for thousands of years, so who is to say he hasn't encountered the kinebranch and learned of their secrets or if his vast intellect and intricate knowledge of primarch physiology isn't enough to counter the poisoning effects of the blade?

The emperor's creation of the primarchs also has never been replicated nor has anything similar been created by other alien races, so the same thing could be said about the primarchs/space marines from an alien's perspective, no?



ckcrawford said:


> If one of the primarchs got on the goldenthrone would it be possible for the emperor to get off and heal? Or would the primarch die cause he wasn't strong enough.
> 
> Theoretically if someone as powerful as Magnus (but obviously not him due to his alliegence to Tzeench) sat on the thrown could he sit there and hold the webway so that the Emperor could heal and kick some ass? I was read somewhere maybe the thread or collected visions though i can't find it that after the emperor's fight with horus he was left wounded beyond his ability to ever recouperate. but i just wanted to check.


The second/third most powerful psycher was Malcador the Sigilite and he was placed on the golden throne while the emperor fought horus on his battle-ship. 

Hours later, he was a corpse and Magnus has defected to the side of chaos. 

So I doubt anyone other can Magnus or the Emperor can reside on the golden throne.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The emperor is no ordinary human if one could even deem that he is to begin with (insert old one theory). He has lived for thousands of years, so who is to say he hasn't encountered the kinebranch and learned of their secrets or if his vast intellect and intricate knowledge of primarch physiology isn't enough to counter the poisoning effects of the blade?


If I am not mistaken the poison on the blade was created by nurgle for the explicit task of killing primarchs. I could be wrong but that rings a bell or two.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> If I am not mistaken the poison on the blade was created by nurgle for the explicit task of killing primarchs. I could be wrong but that rings a bell or two.


It was created by the Kinebranch and stolen by Erebus from the interex's weapon museum. 

Nurgle's involvement was just controlling the dude who wounded Horus I believe.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Well ive been following this thread with interest for the last while great thread by the way.
I noticed a while ago youse were talking about what took the lion so long to reach terra and were they fighting the night lords.

In codex Dark Angels it states that it took them that long to get to terra because they were fighting at the shield worlds with leman russ and the space wolves. They were beset by deamons at the time and it took them along time to get to terra but they did arrive together.

I wonder if it was the lion who helped out the space wolves against the Alpha legion just a thought seems that they were together.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> If one of the primarchs got on the goldenthrone would it be possible for the emperor to get off and heal? Or would the primarch die cause he wasn't strong enough.


If that was the case both the Emperor and the Primarch would die. The Emperor relies on the Golden Throne to anchor his soul to his corpse, without it he would simply perish. 



FORTHELION said:


> In codex Dark Angels it states that it took them that long to get to terra because they were fighting at the shield worlds with leman russ and the space wolves. They were beset by deamons at the time and it took them along time to get to terra but they did arrive together.


That simply doesn't fit though. The Shield Worlds are (to my knowledge) located on the Eastern Fringes, and is where the Lion was campaigning around the time of Isstvan V.

Russ on the other hand at this point was Burning Prospero to the ground (taking into account that Prospero is in or very close to Segmentum Solar).

And immediatly following the Burning of Prospero, Russ was ambushed by the Alpha Legion. Therefore couldn't have been campaigning in the Shield Worlds with El'Jonson. The Heresy novels/CV seem to have overriden the Dark Angels codex in that regard.



FORTHELION said:


> I wonder if it was the lion who helped out the space wolves against the Alpha legion just a thought seems that they were together.


That is possible though.



gen.ahab said:


> If I am not mistaken the poison on the blade was created by nurgle for the explicit task of killing primarchs. I could be wrong but that rings a bell or two.





Malus Darkblade said:


> It was created by the Kinebranch and stolen by Erebus from the interex's weapon museum.
> 
> Nurgle's involvement was just controlling the dude who wounded Horus I believe.


Yes, but take into account _Malus_ that we don't know where the Anathame came from originally, its perfectly plausable it was crafted by or had some early connection with Chaos, and found its way into the Kinebranch's possession later. It might also explain why Magnus was so terrified when he witnessed the blade, and how it was able to overcome a Primarch's physiology.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, but take into account _Malus_ that we don't know where the Anathame came from originally, its perfectly plausable it was crafted by or had some early connection with Chaos, and found its way into the Kinebranch's possession later. It might also explain why Magnus was so terrified when he witnessed the blade, and how it was able to overcome a Primarch's physiology.


"_A very few of the kinebrach weapons looked like weapons: long daggers and swords of exotic design.
'Surely, general commander, a blade is just a blade?' Sindermann asked politely. These daggers here, for instance. How are these weapons "too lethal to be left beyond securement"?'

They are tailored weapons.’ Naud replied. 'Blades of sentient metal, crafted by the kinebrach metallurgists, a technique now utterly forbidden. We call them anathames. When such a blade is selected for use against a specific target, it becomes that target's nemesis, utterly inimical to the person or being chosen.’

'How?' Sindermann pressed.

Naud smiled. The kinebrach have never been able to explain it to us. It is a factor of the forging process that defies technical evaluation._’"

HH:HR


It clearly says they were not handed down to the Kinebranch but rather made by them in ways that defy (If I am not mistaken what is implied to be man-made) technology and after some time was forbidden for the Kinebranch to make.

It says the metal is sentient (or perhaps the techniques involved rendered an ordinary piece of metal into a sentient metal) and I'm certain it's not a Chaos daemon trapped inside because the wording would have been different and the Interex do not tolerate anything Chaos related whatsoever, hence their mistrust of Horus and his warband upon their first encounter and their eventual hostility once they got wind of the stolen blade.

Magnus was horrified because he could not imagine as to why a blade of such deadly potency was created, it eluded his logic.

We can't relate every single thing in the WH40k universe with vague histories/descriptions to Chaos _CotE_. :grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> "_They are tailored weapons.’ Naud replied. 'Blades of sentient metal, crafted by the kinebrach metallurgists, a technique now utterly forbidden. We call them anathames. When such a blade is selected for use against a specific target, it becomes that target's nemesis, utterly inimical to the person or being chosen.’
> 'How?' Sindermann pressed.
> Naud smiled. The kinebrach have never been able to explain it to us. It is a factor of the forging process that defies technical evaluation._’"
> 
> HH:HR


Well then, I believe I should have read the passge myself before I got on my high-horse 

But to be honest, It doesn't rule out Chaos involvement at all.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It says the metal is sentient (or perhaps the techniques involved rendered a piece of metal into one with sentient metal) and I'm certain it's not a Chaos daemon trapped inside because the wording would have been different.


I didn't say that it was a Daemon Weapon.



Malus Darkblade said:


> and the Interex do not tolerate anything Chaos related whatsoever, hence their mistrust of Horus and his warband upon their first encounter.


Aye the Interex don't. But we don't know about the Kinebranch before their 'union' with the Interex. And Chaos may well have been involved without either of them knowing.



Malus Darkblade said:


> We can't relate every single thing in the WH40k universe with vague histories/descriptions to Chaos _CotE_. :grin:


No we can't  - But where the Heresy is concerned it often is. This is the blade that was forged and used to lay low Horus Lupercal and allow him to suffer Chaos temptations and corruptions. In effect, it is what allowed the entire Heresy to actually occur.

The fall of Horus is noted to have been the result of millions of seperate events. Do you think the Warp Gods would have left it to chance? They corrupted Temba and through them he gained possession of the Anathame. Its perfectly plausable that they were the ones that indirectly caused the creation of the Anathame in the first place, so that these events might come to pass.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That simply doesn't fit though. The Shield Worlds are (to my knowledge) located on the Eastern Fringes, and is where the Lion was campaigning around the time of Isstvan V.
> 
> Russ on the other hand at this point was Burning Prospero to the ground (taking into account that Prospero is in or very close to Segmentum Solar).
> 
> ...


what you say could quite possibly be true as im not exactly sure on the time line. though during a thousand sons when magnus destroys the webway horus has only just fallen to chaos and Istavaan is still a long way away from happening. i dont know if there is enough time for the Alpha legion to be at Istavaan and then get across the galaxy to ambush the wolves after prospero. As the wolves were sent pretty much straight after the webway being destroyed it doesnt leave much time for everything else to take place.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I didn't say that it was a Daemon Weapon.


How else would Chaos transfer their dark essences into a piece of metal if not through a daemon host similar to the blade Fulgrim found in that Laer temple?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye the Interex don't. But we don't know about the Kinebranch before their 'union' with the Interex. And Chaos may well have been involved without either of them knowing.
> 
> The fall of Horus is noted to have been the result of millions of seperate events. Do you think the Warp Gods would have left it to chance? They corrupted Temba and through them he gained possession of the Anathame. Its perfectly plausable that they were the ones that indirectly caused the creation of the Anathame in the first place, so that these events might come to pass.


By that perspective, we could say Chaos was involved with every aspect of the WH40k universe which is just giving too much uncalled for credit to them.

And I just came up with a theory that centers around Magnus as being the key to allowing the heresy to occur with Horus being of a lesser importance. Once I gather my thoughts I'll make a thread


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> How else would Chaos transfer their dark essences into a piece of metal if not through a daemon host similar to the blade Fulgrim found in that Laer temple?


You misunderstand me. What I said was that Chaos could have _caused_ the creation of the Anathame - somehow made the Kinebranch to forge these weapons, knowing that they would later be stolen by Erebus and presented to Temba.



Malus Darkblade said:


> By that perspective, we could say Chaos was involved with every aspect of the WH40k universe which is just giving too much uncalled for credit to them.


Ultimately you could probably Chaos as being involved in most things, directly or indirectly on some level.

But that aside for a moment, this was the Heresy. This is what the Chaos Gods needed in order to thwart the threat of the Emperor. And in order to do that they needed to corrupt Horus. And in order to do that they needed to wound him and therefore make him vulnerable to corruption/temptation. And in order to do that they needed a weapon capable of wounding a Primarch - The Anathame. It sounds a bit more than just blind coincidence that the 63rd Expedition came upon such a weapon randomly...

And as Magnus and the Thousand Sons always said.. "Nothing is a coincidence"



Malus Darkblade said:


> And I just came up with a theory that centers around Magnus as being the key to allowing the heresy to occur with Horus being of a lesser importance. Once I gather my thoughts I'll make a thread


I'll look forward to it 



FORTHELION said:


> what you say could quite possibly be true as im not exactly sure on the time line. though during a thousand sons when magnus destroys the webway horus has only just fallen to chaos and Istavaan is still a long way away from happening. i dont know if there is enough time for the Alpha legion to be at Istavaan and then get across the galaxy to ambush the wolves after prospero. As the wolves were sent pretty much straight after the webway being destroyed it doesnt leave much time for everything else to take place.


The Space Wolves were unaware of the Heresy until they were Ambushed by the Alpha Legion. 

And going by some sources there was only 2 years between Ullanor and Isstvan - thus about a year give or take from Davin to Isstvan. So the Prospero Campaign of the Space Wolves would have had to have taken at least a year, which is entirely plausable.

Its in all the background material, _The Collected Visions_ and _Fulgrim_ being the main sources. The Alpha Legion were sent to Prospero to ambush Russ. Where as the Dark Angels were still around the Shield Worlds, and certainly not with Russ.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah i do agree that in collected visions it says the ultra marines and the wolves arrive together. But this contradicts all of that and its more up to date. So i suppose well have to wait for more books in the horus heresy to get the official answer.


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