# Alpha Legion are the most powerful Legion?



## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

Some portion of them are engaging with Istvaan Remnant. Another portion of them rebelled(led by Omegon). They are suffering virtual inter-Legion civil war. 

Still, they take both Scars and Wolves and winning. Chondax was just a beginning and they are fighting with Vth and VIth across galaxy entire, even as far as the region of Pale Stars. Remember by nature, both Scars and Alphas are widely dispersed Legions. Moreover, in Alaxxes, a fifth of Alpha Legion main force(led by Alpharius) are greater and mightier than Wolves entire fleet. 

It is stated they might have comparable number to Ultramarines and are able to field previously unthinkable number of Legionaries simultaneously across the entire galaxy. It seems even conjectured upper limit of 180,000 strength is severe underestimation. I think it is quite plausible that Alphas are the most numerous Legion. 

They never fail except sheer turn of chance or fate. They have practically no weaknesses. They control and exploit each and every factor and element and if enemies somehow achieved meaningful victory or breakthrough, it is just because they allowed enemy to win, with possible one or two exceptions. 

Novels and Forge World Books already pretty much established them as one of the most powerful and fearsome Legion. And it seems if anything, they are increasingly nearing territory of unadulterated Mary Sue, if they did not cross the line long time ago.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

So are they the most powerful Legion then?

.


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

Brother Emund said:


> So are they the most powerful Legion then?
> 
> .


Well......I am the one who asked that same question.


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

It's convenient for them to let people believe it, in any case


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

alt-f4 said:


> It's convenient for them to let people believe it, in any case


Nope, capacities of Alpha Legion are not mere propaganda or contrived lies. It is grain of salt, and solid, established facts. I think 30k Imperial chroniclers have no reason whatsoever to inflate or exaggerate powers and abilities of their hated, despised foe and records, eye witnesses and first-hand experience generally do not lie.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I have personal doubts the Alpha Legion could be the largest. The sort of fighting they did...it's sorta harkens back to _Horus Rising_ when they compared what it took to become a Space Marine and an Iterator. For a Space Marine they need genetic compatibility with the geneseed and a willingness to fight unto death. That's not too hard to come about in the war torn post Long Night galaxy. Everything else, warcraft, discipline (and this was negotiable when we look at the World Eaters), and fighting technique can be readily taught.

For Iterators, they're a breed apart. As the book says, you can teach someone what to think but it's much harder to change _how_ someone thinks. And I think for an Alpha Legionnaire, finding aspirants for them would be extremely difficult.

I don't think their numbers are likely to be all that great. Remember, the Alpha Legion is more than willing to utilize skilled human operatives to bolster their force. Also they're masters of planning. They can do more with less--if given the proper information and time to work out a proper plan.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't think their numbers are likely to be all that great. Remember, the Alpha Legion is more than willing to utilize skilled human operatives to bolster their force. Also they're masters of planning. They can do more with less--if given the proper information and time to work out a proper plan.


All the more reason their numbers are in fact that great. They don't lose as many members because they use proxies. And being masters of planning and perfectionists, they don't waste manpower unless they need to.

There was even an extract in one of the ForgeWorld books that said something along the lines of the AL being able to replenish their numbers/join a warfront with exceedingly large numbers for unknown reasons.


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

Malus Darkblade said:


> All the more reason their numbers are in fact that great. They don't lose as many members because they use proxies. And being masters of planning and perfectionists, they don't waste manpower unless they need to.
> 
> There was even an extract in one of the ForgeWorld books that said something along the lines of the AL being able to replenish their numbers/join a warfront with exceedingly large numbers for unknown reasons.


Yes, how Alpha Legion managed to replace and increase number exceedingly fast is unfathomable mystery and defy the belief and indeed, common sense. Even the likes of Ultramarines and Iron Warriors were not able to replenish their number that quickly. 

We all know the fact that after lost 50,000 Legionaries during Third Rangdan Xenocide, Dark Angels never able to surpass Ultramarines in terms of number again, even though they were previously the largest Legion. But Alpha Legion...well, they became that large in mere twenty years from a scant thousands. How incredibly quaint.


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

Wait, if we take pro-Luther Angels into account, Dark Angels might still be considered as the largest Legion...at least according to Wolf King.

Though I still doubt they would be as large as the Ultramarines prior Calth Atrocity.


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

"Deliverance Lost" may give some clues about the way the Alpha Legion are able to replenish their losses faster than any other legion/chapter.

The Alpha Legion is the most powerful in matter of deception and planning, for sure. But I'm not sure that they are better than Iron Warriors for a siege, Word Bearers within the Eye of Terror or Ultramarines for purely battlefield tactics and strategy. Do you think, for instance, that they would have done better than the Thousand Sons against the Space Wolves, or than the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons ?


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

You are all mistaken. There is no such legion as the Alpha Legion. You have all been terribly misinformed. I would suggest that a moderator close this thread to prevent any further misinformation being spread.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I think the beauty of the XX is they _could_ be the largest legion, but only one or two people would ever know. Similarly they could be the smallest!



alt-f4 said:


> "Deliverance Lost" may give some clues about the way the Alpha Legion are able to replenish their losses faster than any other legion/chapter.
> 
> The Alpha Legion is the most powerful in matter of deception and planning, for sure. But I'm not sure that they are better than Iron Warriors for a siege, Word Bearers within the Eye of Terror or Ultramarines for purely battlefield tactics and strategy.* Do you think, for instance, that they would have done better than the Thousand Sons against the Space Wolves*, or than the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons ?


Yes.

"Alpharius has gone too far this time. Bring him to me, dead or alive"
"Okay"

The Space Wolves set off for the AL homeworld

"Wait... where are we going?"


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

alt-f4 said:


> "Deliverance Lost" may give some clues about the way the Alpha Legion are able to replenish their losses faster than any other legion/chapter.
> 
> The Alpha Legion is the most powerful in matter of deception and planning, for sure. But I'm not sure that they are better than Iron Warriors for a siege, Word Bearers within the Eye of Terror or Ultramarines for purely battlefield tactics and strategy. Do you think, for instance, that they would have done better than the Thousand Sons against the Space Wolves, or than the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons ?


The answer is yes. Clearly, all Legions are not equal and Space Wolves have no hope against full might of Alpha Legion even in the full frontal assault, and despite of their formidable psychic might, Thousand Sons are too small for making any difference. 

Remember the fact that a splinter fleet of Alpha Legion was more than match entire might of the lauded Wolves and almost managed to obliterate them. 

After reading the Calth, I started to doubt the vaunted battlefield adaptation of Ultramarines. Sever their heads, and Ultras become complete morons. Their doctrine is rigid and unimaginative, their tactics and strategies are time-proved hackneyed, their equipment are cheap and mass produced variants, their navies are meager and wholly dependent on the fleets of Excertus Imperialis, etc.

All in all, it is not surprising that staple tactics of 13th Legion is no other than mass assault using their number and discipline in the fullest...exactly same as the World Bearers. 

Really, Forge World utterly shattered what rosy fantasy I had had about 30k Ultamarines. 

In my opinion, Alpha Legions battlefield tactics and strategy, typically known as "Harrowing" is arguably superior than that of Ultramarines, if they are given enough time for preparation and before readied and complete their rehearsals, Alpha Legion would never pit against Ultramarines head-to-head. And anyway, they are much more flexible, pliable and creative than doctrine-bound Ultramarines. I bet only the White Scars can match Alpha Legion in terms of initiative, individual thought and creativity.

However they lack of Alphas discipline, force cohesion and unity of purpose and seldom cooperate -- simply put, they are too unpredictable and that is the reason why they never trusted by Imperial commanders, other Primarchs and indeed, Emperor himself. 

And just one more talk. IIRC, you asked the source of the Alpha Legion recuperation speed. The source is Forge World Books and that is before timeperiod of Deliverance Lost. They always phenomenally fast at replenishing their loss and their gene seed was one of the most pure, stable and efficient from their incipient.

Yes, they are the closest thing of the Mary Sue in 30k galaxy.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Santor said:


> Sever their heads, and Ultras become complete morons.


Is that a joke about their Primarch? ...cuz I'm laughing.


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

ntaw said:


> Is that a joke about their Primarch? ...cuz I'm laughing.


That is intentionally rendered ambiguous...:grin:

Thank you for laughing! You make me have become proud of my wit...:so_happy:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I wouldn't say they're anywhere close to being mary sues or even being the most powerful legion in the galaxy.
A legion like the space wolves or ultramarines are united in what they're doing, they don't have to wonder if another legionary is operating under secret orders, because they know they themselves are.


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

Santor said:


> And just one more talk. IIRC, you asked the source of the Alpha Legion recuperation speed. The source is Forge World Books and that is before timeperiod of Deliverance Lost. They always phenomenally fast at replenishing their loss and their gene seed was one of the most pure, stable and efficient from their incipient.
> 
> Yes, they are the closest thing of the Mary Sue in 30k galaxy.


Well ... I didn't ask for anything, actually. You have asked a question about the power of the Alpha Legion, and I understand the first answer better now, as your goal does not seem to be discussing or finding clues and opinions about it, but to impose your own point of view that seems to be the only one correct answer.

So, yes. Alpha Legion is the most powerful legion, and Omegon is now sitting up the Golden Throne, smirking at the Cabal for his best trick upon them :angel:



Squire said:


> "Alpharius has gone too far this time. Bring him to me, dead or alive"
> "Okay"
> 
> The Space Wolves set off for the AL homeworld
> ...


I talked about the battle itself, not the way or place to start it :biggrin:

Actually, except for Istvann V, I have never read anything about a massive Alpha Legion deployment and battle in open ground, nor even any defensive stance. Even if I like Alpha Legion a lot, I still think that other legions/chapters are better than them in such situations.


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

alt-f4 said:


> Well ... I didn't ask for anything, actually. You have asked a question about the power of the Alpha Legion, and I understand the first answer better now, as your goal does not seem to be discussing or finding clues and opinions about it, but to impose your own point of view that seems to be the only one correct answer.
> 
> So, yes. Alpha Legion is the most powerful legion, and Omegon is now sitting up the Golden Throne, smirking at the Cabal for his best trick upon them :angel:.


Nope. Most definitely not. I do not have any love or affection regarding Alpha Legion. You are totally wrong about my intention and motives. 

On the contrary, I deeply hate them. I vehemently hate and despise the way they are portrayed by BL and FW. And how they are so easily and implausibly deceived and manipulated by the Cabal. Also I hate their delineation of Ultramarines, which are one of my favorites. 

So I researched, and more I study and inquire, I am only become more certain and over and over vindicated that Alpha Legion are overwanked and I wish to see as many as opposed evidences and counter opinions and objections. 

In short, I am playing a sort of the Devil's Advocate.:wink: 

And IIRC, you asked me the source of Alpha Legion and at some point deleted it and I am lately answered about that question. However of course, my memory is failable and it is possible I am confusing you with other person or even construct entire memory anew.



alt-f4 said:


> I talked about the battle itself, not the way or place to start it :biggrin:
> 
> Actually, except for Istvann V, I have never read anything about a massive Alpha Legion deployment and battle in open ground, nor even any defensive stance. Even if I like Alpha Legion a lot, I still think that other legions/chapters are better than them in such situations.


Tesstra Prime, Paramar, Chondax and Alaxxes say hello.

Especially Alaxxes. They are so wanked that some portion of Alpha Legion fleets are more than match of entire Wolves fleets.


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

Santor said:


> Nope. Most definitely not. I do not have any affection regarding Alpha Legion. You are totally wrong about my intention and motives.
> 
> On the contrary, I deeply hate them. I vehemently hate and despise the way they are portrayed by BL and FW. And how they are so easily and implausibly deceived and manipulated by the Cabal. Also I hate their delineation of Ultramarines, which are one of my favorites.
> 
> ...


Whether you love or hate Alpha Legion does not change the fact that you came here with a question just for providing your own answer to it.



> And IIRC, you asked me the source of Alpha Legion and at some point deleted it. However of course, my memory is failable and it is possible I am confusing you with other person or even construct entire memory anew.


You're completely out of point. I come here to discuss and share, not to argue or troll. I can't see any reason to delete a post where I would have asked a question.



> Paramar, Chondax and Alaxxes say hello.
> 
> Especially Alaxxes. They are so overwanked that some portion of Alpha Legion fleets are more than match of entire Wolves fleets.


Hello.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Santor said:


> The answer is yes. Clearly, all Legions are not equal and Space Wolves have no hope against full might of Alpha Legion even in the full frontal assault, and despite of their formidable psychic might, Thousand Sons are too small for making any difference.
> 
> Remember the fact that a splinter fleet of Alpha Legion was more than match entire might of the lauded Wolves and almost managed to obliterate them.


The Wolves were exhausted at that point and had suffered huge losses post Prospero. It's no coincidence the AL ambushed them at their weakest moment.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Santor said:


> I am only become more certain and over and over vindicated that Alpha Legion are *overwanked* and I wish to see as many as opposed evidences and counter opinions and objections.


Is this some sort of weird AL passtime or something? :grin:

.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I concur...the AL are "wanked"...but not by Abnett, only by inferior writers after him

FW has a habit of favouring pet chapters in 40K (e.g. the super-unstoppable ultra-savage Executioners, Minotaurs, Carcharadons who only meet a challenge when they fight each other...cuz y'know, all that matters in war is how savage and bloodthirsty you are in close combat)

FW's pet legions are AL and NL...and I think SW will be next


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Have you even read the Imperial Fist or Ultramarine rules? They're comparable to AL and NL.

In all honesty, the only ones that aren't as powerful as the others are the ones from Betrayal. The rest are pretty solid. However, book 6 seems set to readdress some of this imbalance, so that'll be nice.

Their fluff is a bit Mary Sue, but that's because we're used to Chapters, which are frail, thinly stretched, diluted versions of the Legions they come from. The Legions are the zenith of the Imperium's power so it makes sense for them to be more powerful than we expect from 40k space marines


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## Santor (Oct 26, 2015)

Deus Mortis said:


> Have you even read the Imperial Fist or Ultramarine rules? They're comparable to AL and NL.
> 
> In all honesty, the only ones that aren't as powerful as the others are the ones from Betrayal. The rest are pretty solid. However, book 6 seems set to readdress some of this imbalance, so that'll be nice.
> 
> Their fluff is a bit Mary Sue, but that's because we're used to Chapters, which are frail, thinly stretched, diluted versions of the Legions they come from. The Legions are the zenith of the Imperium's power so it makes sense for them to be more powerful than we expect from 40k space marines


Yes and what I mean is no other than fluff. I have not ever said their rule is Mary Sue. 

Frankly speaking, I wonder if you have even read the main tread, let alone comments. 

And I am saying that Alpha Legion are close to Mary Sue in standard of Legion, NOT Chapter.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Re: thread title:

Only in my heart <3


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

More seriously: the Alpha Legion have some things seriously going for them, but to a self-destructive degree. They are... control freaks and obfuscators, expending massive amounts of resources to cover every angle and overthink everything to the Nth degree without revealing the slightest bit about their true intentions before committing to the operation.

This degree of over-commitment is probably best displayed as self-sabotaging in Sanders' "The Serpent Beneath," in _The Primarchs_ anthology: it's a display of the Alpha Legion at its most Mary Sue, pulling off an incredible heist caper against... 

itself, and then scrubbing out the agents who pulled the heist--including their First Captain.


They suffer from a severe case of "the right hand knows not what the left hand does"--they have given too much initiative to too many people on too many levels without a rigid and rigorous guiding set of values or philosophy. They are lost in the woods for the trees; too hyper-competent on a micro level but lost and formless on the macro level, without structure or ideals; and too plastic and malleable in order to be able to turn themselves into whatever they need to be to overcome the next obstacle to have any overarching identity that defines their course.

Good grief, I love the Alpha Legion.


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