# Fresh thought on the Lost Legions



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I just woke up and had this thought come out of the blue, I cant believe ive not thought of it before.

Failure.

My hypotesis is that the Lost Legions, early on in the Great Crusade, went up againsts targets either of their own voliton, or was tasked to destroy something that went horribly awry. Not every Primarch was a tactical genius as Fulgrim demonstratres in the start of his own book, comming terribly close to a defeat against the Laer at one point by risking himself.

Being a young demigod and overconfident in your own ability is a surefire recipe for disaster, and learning of what had happened, the Emperor ordered a deletion of their misfortune as it went against the mythology that was being established for Primarchs. To not ruin their ability to inspire and draw men with them, if they were to be seen as fallible. Look at the Outcast Dead, where the news of Ferus Manus' passing is -ABSOLUTELY- devastating for the morale among the mortal imperial citizens. That one was a cat that couldn't be kept inside the bag. 

Now imagine what such a morale buster or two even could have meant for the fledgling Imperium just barely into the Crusade. Especially if the Primarchs still was few in number at that time. the morale loss would have been incalculable and put a major dent in the Emperor's plan of being seen as the only true path for humanity if his sons was this fallible and getting themselves killed. Then better to quickly erase them from the records. If the failures never existed, then they couldnt reflect badly on their father and his ambitions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

We "know" that at least one of them was exterminated by the Space Wolves, as per Russ in _Prospero Burns_.

And I think the loss of Ferrus was taken so poorly because of the whole picture. Not only is the Imperium torn in half by civil war, but the rebellion is being led by the Emperor's favored son. Ferrus was also killed in action against his brothers' forces. The adepts probably reasoned it was one of his brothers that killed him because it would really take another Primarch to slay a Primarch (that or overkill, like destroying the planet or ship they're on). 

I don't think simply dying would lead to the great cover up. After all, why have records of the Traitor Legions? Actually turning on the Emperor, in my opinion, is a sin a thousand times worse than simply dying.

In my mind, whatever they did had to be worse than simply dying. Something worse than rebellion. Worse than Chaos worship.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Interesting theory but it makes the Emperor seem much darker than he really is.

Indeed, one Legion was presumed destroyed by Russ and his Wolves. The other can only be speculated at, though it was suggested that this Legion was also destroyed.

But perhaps a 20th Primarch still wanders the galaxy, not knowing why he has lived for over 10.000 years and everybody else died around him.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Sangus Bane said:


> Interesting theory but it makes the Emperor seem much darker than he really is.
> 
> Indeed, one Legion was presumed destroyed by Russ and his Wolves. The other can only be speculated at, though it was suggested that this Legion was also destroyed.
> 
> But perhaps a 20th Primarch still wanders the galaxy, not knowing why he has lived for over 10.000 years and everybody else died around him.


The emperor is a quite dark being for whom the goal justifies the means. Look at the last church for one. Or the grand lie of mars he engineered to shape the mechanicum over 25000 years.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sangus Bane said:


> But perhaps a 20th Primarch still wanders the galaxy, not knowing why he has lived for over 10.000 years and everybody else died around him.


No, we know that every son was found (alive) by the Emperor.

Something happened to them after they met up with the Emperor.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> No, we know that every son was found (alive) by the Emperor.
> 
> Something happened to them after they met up with the Emperor.


Maybe his ship was lost in a warp incident and he has amnesia.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> Maybe his ship was lost in a warp incident and he has amnesia.


Not likely, since their statues was removed, its a 'secret' among the first founding legions that the lost existed.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

It is my belief that at least one of them turned from the Emperor. His rebellion was not likely to be widespread, maybe just restricted to a single world where he mustered his entire legion. Maybe this Primarch saw the eventual state the Imperium was likely to be in.

We rarely see, in 40k, anything close to resembling democracy, republics, or any other free forms of thought simply because of the grim-darkness atmosphere of the setting. I'd like to believe that one of the Lost Primarchs advocated something similar to free-thought, he might have railed against the Mechanicum for Machine-Worship. He might have openly, amongst his brothers, defied the Emperor's decrees to simply burn world's suspected of Chaos-taint. Mind you Chaos taint was not yet known for what it truly was, so likely the Primarchs were merely burning worlds because of what the Emepror deemed as 'excessive mutation', or he might not have given them a reason at all -- just burn it.

This disobiedence would have been tolerated, to an extent, but eventually would have led to the Emperor's sanction. This is where Russ and the Wolves come into play.

Again, just my own little haywire theory.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Perhaps one of the primarchs would'nt submit to the emperor. Angron came pretty close, and would have attacked the emperor if he wasn't teleported to the war hound's ship. Are the primarch's given legions in order of which they are found? Like was the Lion found first which is why he has 1st legion? If so then the second legion/primarch may have been found when they could not forcibly teleport him and so had to be killed?

Just a thought


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Shattertheirsky said:


> Perhaps one of the primarchs would'nt submit to the emperor. Angron came pretty close, and would have attacked the emperor if he wasn't teleported to the war hound's ship. Are the primarch's given legions in order of which they are found? Like was the Lion found first which is why he has 1st legion? If so then the second legion/primarch may have been found when they could not forcibly teleport him and so had to be killed?
> 
> Just a thought


As earlier mentioned, it was known that all twenty of the primarchs was reunited with their legions early in the great crusade. So all of them joined the emperor.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Also, I remembered that in 'The First Heretic' (I think it is), they walk through the gene labs where they are being made. One of them notes that the Ultramarines legion got bigger after the two were erased, suggesting that only the primarchs were killed, as if they had turned to chaos they would all have been killed, rather than being merged with the ultramarines..


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

In 'The First Heretic,' iirc Magnus calls the legions the "forgotten and the purged." It may be that they each described a different legion, the former maybe being the one who supplied the ultras with recruits, and the other simply being annihilated.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> It is my belief that at least one of them turned from the Emperor. His rebellion was not likely to be widespread, maybe just restricted to a single world where he mustered his entire legion. Maybe this Primarch saw the eventual state the Imperium was likely to be in.
> 
> We rarely see, in 40k, anything close to resembling democracy, republics, or any other free forms of thought simply because of the grim-darkness atmosphere of the setting. I'd like to believe that one of the Lost Primarchs advocated something similar to free-thought, he might have railed against the Mechanicum for Machine-Worship. He might have openly, amongst his brothers, defied the Emperor's decrees to simply burn world's suspected of Chaos-taint. Mind you Chaos taint was not yet known for what it truly was, so likely the Primarchs were merely burning worlds because of what the Emepror deemed as 'excessive mutation', or he might not have given them a reason at all -- just burn it.


I don't think this works out. The Emperor really didn't care how their homeworlds were managed. Look at the Night Lord's homeworld. It was a seething pit of rapists and murders. The Emperor took no notice of it.

The worlds of Ultramar were also reasonably free as well.

And the Primarchs seemed to know about Chaos, at least in the latter years of the Crusade. Horus, Alphairus, and Magnus (off the top of my head) knew about Chaos before the Heresy.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

what if *they* managed to find a way to clone or reproduce?

and then left the emperors service?


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

BlackGuard said:


> I'd like to believe that one of the Lost Primarchs advocated something similar to free-thought



I like this idea a lot. It would be awesome if there was a primarch who was unquestionably a Good Guy in the modern sense. Standing up for what's right, defying extermination orders, etc. Given the nature of the universe, that would be such an anomaly that would make sense for heavy sanction, too :grin:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Cowbellicus said:


> I like this idea a lot. It would be awesome if there was a primarch who was unquestionably a Good Guy in the modern sense. Standing up for what's right, defying extermination orders, etc.


Vulkan (if he's anything like 40K Salamanders) sorta fits the bill


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Cowbellicus said:


> I like this idea a lot. It would be awesome if there was a primarch who was unquestionably a Good Guy in the modern sense. Standing up for what's right, defying extermination orders, etc. Given the nature of the universe, that would be such an anomaly that would make sense for heavy sanction, too :grin:


Ironically the 40k Space Wolves are precisely like this. Read The Emperor's Gift. The Space Wolves defying the orders to exterminate the guardsmen having fought at the first war of armageddon, leading to a siege of Fenris.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I can sink my teeth into the idea that one legion was destroyed and another had lost its primarch and was so merged with the ultramarines. The one that was destroyed was probably done so for one of three reasons:

1. Turned to Chaos
2. Delved into the warp and psykers even more so than Magnus
3. Were more religious than even the Word Bearers. 

As for the one that was merged and forgotten, the reasoning couldn't have anything to do with the geneseed as the legion would have been destroyed as well. So something horrible had to have happened to the primarch and he was a victim of some powerful beast/alien/etc. 

Perhaps it was the legendary My Little Ponies chapter and the Emperor simply could not allow that to continue :nono:


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I can sink my teeth into the idea that one legion was destroyed and another had lost its primarch and was so merged with the ultramarines. The one that was destroyed was probably done so for one of three reasons:
> 
> 1. Turned to Chaos
> 2. Delved into the warp and psykers even more so than Magnus
> ...


I could imagine it happening like this, the forgotten legion encountering a truly monstrous threat that they barely manage to hold back, suffering truly devastating losses. The day only saved due to the arrival of the Ultramarines legion. The dying primarch of the forgotten pleading guiliman to protect the last of his sons, before getting the Emperor's peace. Guiliman, being the cynical realist he is, determines that the Imperium can never be allowed to learn that one of the Emperor's sons had fallen, as it would be a devastating blow to morale. At a time when the brotherhood of the primarchs still was at their zenith and perhaps still smarting from the purging of the purged legion that had left a deep scar in their brotherhood. And likely being the initial seed of discontentment with the Emperor, that he at any moment could order the ultimate sanction over one of his sons. Which I speculate might have been the root for guiliman's idea for Imperium Secundus.

So Guiliman decides to adopt the now fatherless forgotten, padding his own numbers with them and wiping them from history with the Emperor's approval. Its my own pet theory that the genelines of the forgotten within the Ultramarines legion, explains the origin of all the oddballs and deviants of their line that doesnt match with the common stoic ultramarine behavior. Such as the Mortifactors or Uriel Ventris.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Ironically the 40k Space Wolves are precisely like this. Read The Emperor's Gift. The Space Wolves defying the orders to exterminate the guardsmen having fought at the first war of armageddon, leading to a siege of Fenris.


I don't recall the Space Wolves being attacked over their disagreement with the treatment of the First War of Armageddon survivors.

Logan Grimnar was just short of violence when he was stopped by Urlik the Slayer. _Just_.

There has been some Inquisitional scrutiny towards the Space Wolves, but I don't recall there ever being an actual attack on them. The only time I recall Fenris being attacked is by the Thousand Sons a couple of times. Once in _Battle for the Fang_ and within the Space Wolves series.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

hailene said:


> I don't recall the Space Wolves being attacked over their disagreement with the treatment of the First War of Armageddon survivors.
> 
> Logan Grimnar was just short of violence when he was stopped by Urlik the Slayer. _Just_.
> 
> There has been some Inquisitional scrutiny towards the Space Wolves, but I don't recall there ever being an actual attack on them. The only time I recall Fenris being attacked is by the Thousand Sons a couple of times. Once in _Battle for the Fang_ and within the Space Wolves series.


Read The Emperors Gift. The space wolves kills a lot of grey knights and grimnar personally kills an Inquisitor Lord, before he is forced to submit by Bjorn the Fell Handed. Just about halting the purge of the space wolves that the Red Hunters had been bought along to do.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

They get attacked. The Inquisitor responsible for the purge (who we later learn is in over his head) get's the Grey Knights and a chapter of SM who worship the Emperor as a god and go besiege Fenris. They go to the surface and start negotiating with the one person on Fenris who can when Logan and the fleet show up. Can you guess what they did when they saw a hostile fleet in orbit over Fenris?


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Ironically the 40k Space Wolves are precisely like this. Read The Emperor's Gift. The Space Wolves defying the orders to exterminate the guardsmen having fought at the first war of armageddon, leading to a siege of Fenris.


That whole book kind of rocked my worldview. I don't understand how to rectify it with everything else about the SW. They have always been billed as "the Emperor's Executioners". Following orders no matter what. Christ, they were responsible for the complete purge of at least two seperate Legions. You would expect they would be the ones you would turn to when it came down to murdering a couple million of your own soldiers. 

Having them refuse to follow orders is a really bizarre inconsistency. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, and it's pretty surprising to see from ADB.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

> Having them refuse to follow orders is a really bizarre inconsistency. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, and it's pretty surprising to see from ADB.


Actually it does make sense. First of all the problems between the SW and =I= are in fluff from way back (this isn't something ADB just pulled out of thin air). Second, the Emperor's Executioners thing was back in 30k. 10k years of war and crap will change you (just compare the Imperium to then and now).

EDIT: I haven't read the old SW books but I'm pretty sure the Executioners thing is new (as in introduced in the HH series).


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Cowbellicus said:


> That whole book kind of rocked my worldview. I don't understand how to rectify it with everything else about the SW. They have always been billed as "the Emperor's Executioners". Following orders no matter what. Christ, they were responsible for the complete purge of at least two seperate Legions. You would expect they would be the ones you would turn to when it came down to murdering a couple million of your own soldiers.
> 
> Having them refuse to follow orders is a really bizarre inconsistency. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, and it's pretty surprising to see from ADB.


well, firstly we dont know if they truly did purge the two legions,secondly the imperial guardsmen were quite probably completely innocent, they fought and died with the wolves, the wolves didnt fight for the planet, they fought for the people, if the people were going to die anyway, then that cheapens their deaths, all the sacrifice is rendered meaningless, the whole reason they told the GK to fight Angron away from the hives was to protect the civillians.

the inquisition was just dying for a chance to reign in the most autonomous, independent legion of the astartes and assert their authority, it was for them a way to dominate the wolves.

also following direct orders from the Emperor, is completely different from following orders from a institution that is so far removed from what the emperor originally sought that they themselves would have been deemed heretical in his time, the wolves and the inquisitors, if you read the book have had a LONG history mired in distrust.

the wolves gave their word to the soldiers that they would escape, the wolves got a promise from GK that the guard would be left alone, the inquisition at every corner tried to fuck the wolves over, why would they obey people who acted dishonorably and openly fought them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

There are a lot of wonderful theories. However, due to a lot of bad Primarch examples, it is hard to believe that the lost Primarch's have been exterminated or band from the Imperium due to their behavior. Even if you think about genetic flaws. How bad could they have been? Considering you have the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Thousand Sons. Could they have been that embarrassing of legions? Possibly, however, the impact of one legion and even one primarch has too much of an impact to be totally forgotten.

My only thoughts on this are that the lost primarchs and the Emperor were dealing with something really big that surpass any of the known enemies of the Galaxy at that time.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Read The Emperors Gift. The space wolves kills a lot of grey knights and grimnar personally kills an Inquisitor Lord, before he is forced to submit by Bjorn the Fell Handed. Just about halting the purge of the space wolves that the Red Hunters had been bought along to do.


As per your suggestion, I read it.

It flies in the face of the SW codex. I guess it's a retcon.

I did like when everyone was kneeling to Bjorn. I laughed out loud.

Also ADB threw in an anachronism by mentioning the Badab war. That wasn't going to happen for another 500 years! 



Cowbellicus said:


> That whole book kind of rocked my worldview. I don't understand how to rectify it with everything else about the SW. They have always been billed as "the Emperor's Executioners". Following orders no matter what. Christ, they were responsible for the complete purge of at least two seperate Legions. You would expect they would be the ones you would turn to when it came down to murdering a couple million of your own soldiers.
> 
> Having them refuse to follow orders is a really bizarre inconsistency. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, and it's pretty surprising to see from ADB.


ADB didn't write the fluff about the SWs fighting for the soldiers of Armageddon. That's already been written in.

But it's not that far fetched. The SWs respect strength and courage in the face of death. Both traits shown by the soldiers of the Imperium. To have worthy brother in arms discarded simply for expediency would fly in the face of their concept of honor.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't see how records of the lost Primarchs were purged. Every planet they on which they obtained Compliance would remember them, and in many cases Primarchs are still venerated by the planets they conquered. What do you do, mindwipe billions of people?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

randian said:


> I don't see how records of the lost Primarchs were purged. Every planet they on which they obtained Compliance would remember them, and in many cases Primarchs are still venerated by the planets they conquered. What do you do, mindwipe billions of people?


Just a question of sterilizing the population of the planets touched by the lost legions and keep them under quaratine to ensure everything is forgotten. Plus the Emperor is a ginormously powerful psyker.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

I still like the theory that the Primarchs from each Legion were mortal enemies before the Emperor had found them and even on his own commandment to lay down arms and join his cause, they still bickered and openly fought each other, thus causing one to be exterminated by Leman Russ and perhaps the other fleeing his father's wrath with the leftovers from each Legion filling Roboute Guilliman's Ultrasmurfs as a result.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Im not going to bother reading through all the threads to see if its been suggested before:

Perhaps one of the 2 missing primarchs turned on the second one and destroyed the entire legion, thus the emperor sent the wolves to get rid of the legion that destroyed the other, or near destroyed seeing as the ultramarines did swell in number.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

There are a few tantalising hints about the lost legions in A Thousand Sons. I got the impression that one of the legions were destroyed/scratched off the record because they were complete Warlocks, even firther from the Thousand Sons. Perhaps they were mutated beyond reckoning and the Big E was trying to deny the existance of Chaos to all extents.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Perhaps they were mutated beyond reckoning and the Big E was trying to deny the existance of Chaos to all extents.


That can't be so, since Wolves seem as ignorant of Chaos as the rest of the Legions. If the Wolves destroyed them, they would have seen those mutations and thus know what Chaos was/is.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

randian said:


> That can't be so, since Wolves seem as ignorant of Chaos as the rest of the Legions. If the Wolves destroyed them, they would have seen those mutations and thus know what Chaos was/is.


Not necessarily. We know that at least 1 of the legions were wiped out by the Wolves. It's possible that the other legion were wiped out for some unknown reason. Magnus himself comments that 9 of the Primarchs were present when the other legion were struck off the records. Mortarion and Lorgar comment on this as well so maybe they were present and perhaps this is where they gained a limited understanding of Chaos from.


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## meinhardt (Sep 22, 2008)

I do not think it is possible that either of the lost turned on the Emperor or tried to make a Imperium of their own. That was for Horace and Horace alone to do. If it had happened before noone would have been so totally blown away by Horaces betrayal even if he is the favored son. It is my hope that at least one of the great tragedies was due to xenos.

The Emperor is a huge xenophobe. He started a grand xeno extermination that he dubbed the great crusade. Remember they would even slaughter entire human civilizations if they werent close enough to the norm that the Emperor chose for humanity. Just imagine if one of his sons had decided to protect a xeno species or allowed them into the Legions...send in the Wolves...cover the statue...disperse the surviving gene seed to the Ultra Marines...have a bud light and call it a day.


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## dickie bell (Jul 8, 2012)

i wonder if these 2 missing primarchs were not compatible with their legions ,as i have been reading the legions were created with their primarchs gene seed and then had to wait some considerable time to be reunited with their primarch , we have seen that the alpha legion primarch are actually twins and between being cast from the lab to being discovered on their home planets unintended changes took place , i believe one may have had null powers which would have been an advantage over the emperor and therefore a threat needed to be destroyed along with their legion in case they developed this power too ? and the other one i have no idea considering how different the primarchs are i find it hard to guess at the reasons to forget/destroy any primarch when you read of the disbelief and horror of horus's betrayal what could they have possibly done wrong ? these are the immediate theories of a relative new comer to 40k


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I started writing some fluff on the second legion. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=113621

It's bad but I think it fits into what might have happened. After all a legion and primarch that sides with xenos would be a good enough reason to wipe or attempt to wipe them out.


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## Corporal Punishment 69 (Jul 8, 2012)

What if one primarch is anarchist, refuses to kill blindly for emperor and wants to have big inclusive way of living, like Tau or Interex? Then he be very bad from viewing of emperor, need to be killed. And maybe other one is hidden, a security against a future when the emperor is died and other primarch too, a new legion to reunite Imperium if all go bad, so removed all word so enemies don't find him and his legions....


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## halkon (Jul 7, 2012)

hailene said:


> As per your suggestion, I read it.
> 
> It flies in the face of the SW codex. I guess it's a retcon.
> 
> ...


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## Hrolleif (Jan 29, 2012)

This page has much of the information and some of the quotes covered in the Horus Heresy series.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions#.T_1-nfWT4XI


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## TheOnlySaneObliterator (May 3, 2012)

Is it possible that the Legion that wasn't executed by the Space Wolves (assuming they completely succeeded) became... 

I can't believe I'm actually saying this but...

The Legion of the Damned?

Just look at the title. _Legion_ of the Damned. As in pre-Codex Astartes Space Marine organization. 

A Legion that nobody knows where it came from, why they call theselves Damned, or even what primarch the Legion came from?

Any evidence for, or against, this?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

TheOnlySaneObliterator said:


> Is it possible that the Legion that wasn't executed by the Space Wolves (assuming they completely succeeded) became...
> 
> I can't believe I'm actually saying this but...
> 
> ...


Unfortuntely there is plenty of evidence that the Legion of the Damned are descended from the Fire Hawks chapter. They were of the cursed founding who mysteriously disappeared in a freak warpstorm and presumed lost. There has been evidence ranging from a Fire Hawks standard they once left as well as coffins containing gene seed of the old chapter after battles.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

the backstory of the Legion of the damned is very well known..

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legion_of_the_Damned


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## N U R G L E (May 17, 2012)

I actually have an interesting theory. Now... you would have to bare with me of course.

I think that the Emperor realized that with 20 legions battling the galaxy that it was overkill. He sent these two legions away from the Galaxy on their own crusade. 2 of the most powerful legions which was a heavy hit on the Legions and Primarchs at that time. I would say that only few of the primarchs actually knew what happened. But they knew they would never hear from them again. Thats why its sounding like they were destroyed. 

I think the wolves had something to do with it. Whether Russ was the one to send the order or was forced to do so. But I think that Russ believes he sent those legions and their brothers to their doom and in return has regretted his actions. 

I believe the link between the Wolves and the Lost Legions is a more of a sad dramatic one and not one with violence like most assume. 

Think about it. How can a legion be a "legion killer?" Even if they do have the advantage over many legions due to tactics, military strength, and savagery. Why would the Emperor send one legion to destroy another by itself? What the fuck is that? Even if he knew the Wolves would win, its pretty much a devastating fate for a legion to face when facing another legion. The numbers lost are hard to get back. Especially when you recruit from Fenris. 

The only person who doesn't seem to think its a big deal is the Emperor who laughs at Malcador when he mentions the idea of destroying the statues of the lost ones. Malcador and the primarchs obviously have hard feelings about talking about the lost legions and primarchs. By the way this scene is in Lightning Tower.

Now how do you explain the Emperor not being an asshole or hardcore about this matter if this is infact an "actual disaster" to the Imperium? It may be devastating to the Brotherly Primarchs, but not the Emperor. And we know the Emperor has a short temper and is quick to not taking shit from other legions. 

So why do the primarchs not like this. Well we see how some of the legions see Dorn and the Imperial Fists when they go back to Terra. They see it as almost a punishment. Not being able to share the glory with their brothers in what could be the greatest moment of Imperial History. The Lost Legions were exempt from that. Sounds pretty tragic if you ask me. 


Why do I exclude banishment, exile, destruction, and or genocide of these legions? Well lets think about it. As far as we know the Emperor never ordered the killing of any of the primarchs. There are hints, and confusing information here and there. But with most recent accounts we know nothing about how Curze was going to serve his fate. Magnus was originally supposed to go to Terra and go on the Golden Throne. And Horus, that trecherous bastard's destruction was only really really thought about when the Emperor was done fucken around and about to die. 

I don't care whatever you guys say, the Emperor has been there, with any type of Legion disapointment you can think about and hasn't lifted a finger. 

1. We got Lorgar being a failure during the whole first part of the Crusade
2. We got Crazy Curze those whole time and the Emperor doesn't do anything
3. We got fucked up Angron destroying his legion with the nails. A potential threat to any other legion or important real world. What did the Emperor do?
4. We have the Thousand Sons, Wolves, Emperor's Children, Blood Angels and Salamanders... all genetically flawed. Not to mention some of those mutations went a bit overhand. 
5. We have accounts of legions disobeying the Warmaster.
6. We have Corax and his counter ideas to the Imperium.
7. Before the Council of Nikea we got the legions playing with magic. 

So... what hasn't been done? Quick answer. Nothing. 

The facts as they appear show that the Heresy was a surprise to everyone, even the legions. It just isn't something that happened before.

Furthermore, we have the Emperor who has pretty much united Mankind, constructed an Imperial Webway and about the conquer the Galaxy... what's next? Another Galaxy? Why not? There are other technologies and things to explore to become a more powerful Empire. What could be a more dependable scouting party than two legions? The Emperor knows there is more to the universe.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Some...interesting points you bring up. I'll touch on the ones that I have some quesitons.



N U R G L E said:


> I actually have an interesting theory. Now... you would have to bare with me of course.
> 
> I think that the Emperor realized that with 20 legions battling the galaxy that it was overkill.


Hard to believe. The Legions at first were only a fraction of their size at the start of the Great Crusade. Even before the mid point of the Great Crusade, the Legions were stretched to the limit and that's where the Imperial Army moved up from glorified occupiers to front liners.



N U R G L E said:


> He sent these two legions away from the Galaxy on their own crusade


Hard to believe. We've never heard of any inter-galactic traveling outside the Tyranids and (possibly?) the Necrons.



N U R G L E said:


> I would say that only few of the primarchs actually knew what happened. But they knew they would never hear from them again. Thats why its sounding like they were destroyed.


Also unlikely. In _Thousand Sons_ Magnus is talking to Mortarion during the victory celebration on Ullanor. 
Magnus says, "A great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since..." M

Mortarion cuts him off with, "I know well when it was,Magnus. "And the Emperor forbade us to speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?"

Although not definitive, this is probably the eradication of one of their brothers.



N U R G L E said:


> I believe the link between the Wolves and the Lost Legions is a more of a sad dramatic one and not one with violence like most assume.


Russ alludes otherwise in _Prospero Burns_. Kasper and him have a conversation at the end.

Kasper: The unprecedented. Like...Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?

Russ: That? Hjolda, no. That's not unprecedented.

So with that we learn that the Wolves have been used to punish his brother Legions one way or another. This also gives weight to Long Fang's declaration of the Wolve's role as executioners--after all, he's been a Space Wolf since their Founding and probably either took part in, or heard directly from those who did, the sanctioning of another Leigon.



N U R G L E said:


> Think about it. How can a legion be a "legion killer?" Even if they do have the advantage over many legions due to tactics, military strength, and savagery. Why would the Emperor send one legion to destroy another by itself? What the fuck is that? Even if he knew the Wolves would win, its pretty much a devastating fate for a legion to face when facing another legion. The numbers lost are hard to get back. Especially when you recruit from Fenris.


They went over this in _Prospero Burns_. Basically because you need to hit the sweet point of savagery and discipline. 

Sure, the World Eaters or Night Lords could be sent to terrorize a planet, but why would they be killing? For the pleasure of it or because the Emperor ordered it?

The Imperial Fists and Ultramarines could ensure nothing escaped, but could you rely on every one of them to slaughter innocent civilians simply on the Emperor's orders?

The Wolves hit the right mix of disciplane and savagery. 

Longfang explains it in _Prospero Burns_. Here's a conversation between him and Kasper.

Longfang: We are the Allfather's Killers.

Kasper: You're soldiers. You're Astartes born. Astartes are the finest warriors Terra has ever manufactured. You're _all_ killers.

Longfang: That's too simple a view. I told you this A role for each primarch-son. A role for each primarch's Legion...we all have our duties. Sixth Legion are the executioners. We are the last line. When all else fails, we are the ones expected to do whatever is necessary.

Kasper: Isn't that true for all Legions?

Longfang: You still don't understand, skajald. I'm talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the _Vlka Fenryka_ are capable of undertaking them...It's the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. We take pride in being the only Astates who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter the target, no matter the cause.

A little lengthy, but that's why they're the executioners.



N U R G L E said:


> The only person who doesn't seem to think its a big deal is the Emperor who laughs at Malcador when he mentions the idea of destroying the statues of the lost ones. Malcador and the primarchs obviously have hard feelings about talking about the lost legions and primarchs. By the way this scene is in Lightning Tower.


Could you post that portion of the conversation? I don't recall the Emperor mentioning the statues. Dorn thinks about the two empty plinths. That they had been emptied long ago due to two separate tragedies.

Sigsmund wants to tear down all the statues of the traitor primarchs, but at this point of the story they merely covered Horus and company's statues.



N U R G L E said:


> So why do the primarchs not like this. Well we see how some of the legions see Dorn and the Imperial Fists when they go back to Terra. They see it as almost a punishment. Not being able to share the glory with their brothers in what could be the greatest moment of Imperial History. The Lost Legions were exempt from that. Sounds pretty tragic if you ask me.


As I said earlier, whatever circumstances occurred to the 2nd and 11th Legions were separate.

Still, I find this extra-galactic travel pretty farfetched. The astronomican only covers the majority of our galaxy. The eastern edge of the milkyway is outside its reach.

They wouldn't dare sail outside its reach. Besides, the goal of the Great Crusade was to reclaim man's lose empire. There's never been any mention of mankind leaving our galaxy, much less founding colonies. 



N U R G L E;1263431
I don't care whatever you guys say said:


> 1. He censored Lorgar and forced his entire Legion to its knees while he chastised Lorgar.
> 
> 2. After Curze blew up his planet, he and his entire Legion were sanctioned by the Emperor and ordered by to Terra for a hearing. Things got a little hairy when 1. Curze escaped and 2. Isstvaan kicked off.
> 
> ...


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> There are a few tantalising hints about the lost legions in A Thousand Sons. I got the impression that one of the legions were destroyed/scratched off the record because they were complete Warlocks, even firther from the Thousand Sons. Perhaps they were mutated beyond reckoning and the Big E was trying to deny the existance of Chaos to all extents.


Sorry I know it was a much earlier post, but I like the idea of the Wolves destroying one legion because of the above, but...

The wolves may not have put 2+2 together, I mean mutation so far in the future couldn't have been very rare? Especially considering before a planet is brought to compliance during the great crusade, there are checks to see if the DNA of the populous is still within the limits of human. More likely if they were tasked with destroying a legion, the big E would have just said something a long the lines of, look Russ, dude, I failed, that's why they are mutating..blah blah and not have thought mutation = chaos.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding the Red thirst of the blood angels



in the extract of Fear to thread, the BA marines is indeed suffering from it even with sanguinius alive and we see horus learning of it. One of the reasons for the BAs going to Cygnus prime, is that Horus tells Sangy that there might be a cure for it there. Completely failing to mention it would entail submitting to the chaos gods. However the events there and the future death of Sangy, cursed them with the second bane of the black rage.

Also sangy is aware there is a flaw in him, and he is deathly afraid of talking to the Emperor about it, worried he might be found wanting.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

The Emperor _did_ order Angron to stop using the Nails. The problem was that the Emperor did not verify compliance with that order, since Angron ignored him and continued installing the Nails on the rest of his Legion.


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