# Magnus is LOYAL!



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

And here is why:

First if you notice until his actual fall no one on either side thought Magnus would ever betray the Emperor. It just was not going to happen. As things unfolded in "1000 Sons" we see how he fell, but I have an issue with it.

I think it goes w/o saying that Magnus was the most gifted of all the primarchs as far as psychic powers go. The Emperor did not tell anyone that he was working on an Imperial Webway (which pissed off most of them for being left out of the loop). Magnus figured it out on his own. A very impressive feat.

That being said after Magnus royaly screwed everything up he went to great lengths to ensure his, his legion, and his world's death to stay loyal to the Emperor. He allowed the Bombardment, he told Tzintche to go fuck himself, he watched as his world died... and than at the end - for no apparent reason he decided "fuck it, I am going to fight... and fall to chaos"?

That makes no sense. What changed his mind? They don't say in "1000 sons". I'll tell you why.

He had already resisted the temptations of a GOD and remained loyal. So there is only one being in the galaxy that could have gotten him to turn - and that would be the Emperor. I think it is all part of the Emperor's grand plan, whatever that may be. I think that the Emp anticipated that Magnus would fall w/o any outside coaxing. But in the same way that Magnus was too smart for his own good by finding out about the webway he was screwing up the Emp's plan by not falling to Chaos. I think the Emp contacted Magnus as Prospero was falling and revealed his plan to Magnus, and Magnus now knowing the truth did the unthinkable. He turned to Chaos.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

His SUDDEN turn always struck me as odd.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

I am a fan of Magnus being loyal


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Magnus was always more concerned about himself. He did not care what others thought and was also the first of the traitors to strike against his fellow brothers. In _A Thousand Sons_ he ordered the Scarab Cult to "stop them" during the battle they had fought with them.

I liked the novel because though it tried to portray Magnus as loyal it had several hidden _instances_ where it showed Magnus' selfishness. 

I mean, before Istvaan, how dare Magnus strike a blow against another legion to defend forbidden lore. There was no excuse for his actions and the Council of Nikea put him in his place.

Another thing which I have questioned, did Magnus know the consequences for breaking the barrier of the Imperial Webway? I think it's something to ponder. We can always say he was trying to warn the Emperor. But did he AT ALL know the consequences those actions were going to do against the Imperium?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is a nice theory, but the only thing that backs that up is the fact that Magnus eventually changed his mind and decided that it might not be the best thing to let everything he cares about be torn apart by a whirlwind if pissed off space wolves. 

More than likely, he just snapped and couldn't go through with it. The simple answer is that he couldn't watch his sons be butchered, and chaos was his only option. 

As far as evidence against this theory goes, I would sight his ascension to daemon-kind. His sole goal is the advancement of his patron in the great game of chaos.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

*The cyclops..*

Bless him, he's my favourite Primarch and Legion! I actually agree with a lot of what's been said, I think he may have fallen due to absolute despair...he fecked his Dads greats creation by accident, his sons were being butchered and so on..He had nothing left, what else is a being of that power going to do? I feel sorry for him and his legion, but in the end it's all part of the great plan.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> al it had several hidden _instances_ where it showed Magnus' selfishness.
> I mean, before Istvaan, how dare Magnus strike a blow against another legion to defend forbidden lore. There was no excuse for his actions and the Council of Nikea put him in his place.


How dare he? Because he knew he was right to do so! The sons were one of the very few legions to see the value of the universe as something to be understood rather than destroyed. Magnus's, like most of the fallen primarchs, flaw was supreme arrogance.

The council of Nikea was a farce, and put the sons in an impossible position, their whole doctrine was effectively banned, yet Magnus still tried to save Horus, because he believed not in ruling an empire with legions but because the imperium could bring knowledge and enlightenment to humanity

Why did he change his mind? FEAR, he didn't want to die. The suffering of the legion was secondary, look at the destruction and suffering the dogs had already inflicted


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Barnster said:


> How dare he? Because he knew he was right to do so!


How so? He attacked another legion and primarch for what? A library? What contribution to the Imperium did Magnus achieve? As far as we know... zip. Nada.



Barnster said:


> The sons were one of the very few legions to see the value of the universe as something to be understood rather than destroyed. Magnus's, like most of the fallen primarchs, flaw was supreme arrogance.


That was very much so... to the extreme. Somethings can't be understood. Warp and the Chaos Gods for instance. He was extremely wrong. And pretty much fucked up the Imperium for 10,000 years with his stupidity. 



Barnster said:


> The council of Nikea was a farce, and put the sons in an impossible position, their whole doctrine was effectively banned, yet Magnus still tried to save Horus, because he believed not in ruling an empire with legions but because the imperium could bring knowledge and enlightenment to humanity
> 
> Why did he change his mind? FEAR, he didn't want to die. The suffering of the legion was secondary, look at the destruction and suffering the dogs had already inflicted


The Emperor had good reason to ban the doctrine. The only mistake the Emperor did was being lenient to Magnus. He should have killed him or strapped his ass to the golden throne the moment he started turning against his brothers for his own agenda.

As far as him joining Horus during the heresy, I think its silly that Magnus had a sound mind ever since the Burning of Prospero (or at least any hint that still remained of him). I think its safe to assume Magnus turned against the Imperium because his mind was warped and any remaining feelings about the Imperium were of anger and revenge.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I always felt he turned Chaos simply out of desparation, but the other points made here are perfectly sound as well.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

How did Magnus screw up the Imperial webway?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Chaosveteran said:


> How did Magnus screw up the Imperial webway?


The Golden Throne was used by the Emperor (and, at the end of his life, Malcador) to control the Imperial 'branch' of the webway. The Emperor created this 'branch' after Ullanor and his retreat to Terra and then into seclusion in the laboratories in the dungeons. It's covered in _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_ in two passages titled "The Golden Throne" and, appropriately, "Beyond the Golden Throne".

Magnus' message to the Emperor, sorcerer as it was and taking quick-routes through the webway at the behest of what's basically implied to be Tzeentch itself... well, to speak to the Emperor he has to break down all the wards, protections and defences that keep the daemons of the warp and other psykers out.

The defences broken, daemons pour into the Imperial palace, only the Emperor, his Custodes and the Sisters of Silence (and whatever human/Martian support is on hand) stand against them, thus putting the Emperor into deadlock on the Golden Throne using it to hold off hordes of daemons from bursting out onto Terra for the bulk of the Heresy. Only at the end does he leave the Golden Throne and go to see Horus on the Vengeful Spirit - at which point Malcador takes up the Golden Throne and survives long enough for the Emperor to win. When the Emperor returns, he commands to be put on the Throne as Malcador fades to dust - consumed by the power of the Throne.

---

*Magnus' Loyalty*

After his spell on the Planet of Sorcerers at the end of _A Thousand Sons_ (concurrent with Ahriman's Rubric?), Magnus eventually contacts Horus. He's embittered by the Wolves, even if he was originally loyal: the Emperor sent the Wolves against him, (apparently?) knowing full well what they do. The Emperor betrayed Magnus for 'trying to help'. Even the opening monologue in _A Thousand Sons_ comments on Magnus' state: "power such as this once given cannot be returned" or words to that effect.

Magnus has a significant role in the novella _Aurellian_, but only a year-and-a-half 'til folks can read that for themselves. Suffice to say, Magnus & Lorgar have a chat.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> In _A Thousand Sons_ he ordered the Scarab Cult to "stop them" during the battle they had fought with them.


Dude, that's your interpretation of things. We have absolutely no idea how things went down there. For all we know the Wolves could've attacked first trying to get past the Sons and the Sons simply were defending themselves. When Ahriman arrived he noticed damage from astartes close combat weapons on the Thousand Sons' armour. Seeing as the scene right after that showed how easily the Sons were capable of maintaining a distance between them and the Wolves using their powers (and without resorting to lethal force) it could imply an unexpected attack at close range from the Space Wolves. Magnus still explicitly states that he did NOT start the conflict but that he would end it if necessary. 

It could also explain the shedding of Fenrisian blood. Maybe after the abrupt attack some of the Sons reacted with too much force, shocked at the Wolves' actions. 

And I'm not saying that that is how it happened either. But I do believe that my version has more actual evidence from the book to support it. The point is, we don't know what happened so, while we can speculate, none of us can peddle off their own theories as the truth.



ckcrawford said:


> How so? He attacked another legion and primarch for what? A library? What contribution to the Imperium did Magnus achieve? As far as we know... zip. Nada.


Again, your opinion. And he never attacked Russ. In fact, Russ was the one who threatened to kill him during their initial meeting. And this after demanding that Magnus drop what he was doing and help him, even though he holds absolutely no authority over Magnus. So to recap, Russ sends a lacky to demand Magnus' aid. Then insults him and threatens to kill him when Magnus attempts to do the same. Then wants his help but refuses to allow him any say in how the compliance is being handled. I don't know about you, but if a brother treated me like that I'd be quite inclined to tell him to go fuck himself. And what right did he actually have to get pissy about Magnus "shedding Fenrisian blood" when he himself was directly responsible for the deaths of a large number of Sons during the same conflict?

And did you forget about the founding of the librarius, to train psykers which is still being used in modern 40k. And it's kind of hard to make any other solid contributions when your planet and everything on it gets wiped out by the Wolves. From _A Thousand Sons_ we can see that Propsero wasn't just a place for psykers but a place where advancements were being made in a number of fields, including medicine. For all we know the knowledge and work taking place on that planet could have had a massive impact on the Imperium, but was destroyed before it ever got the chance.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I couldn't see Magnus as disloyal, I think he was a broken man by the time the Wolves had finished with him, the magnitude of his fuck up being realised, not just the webway, but the pact he made with chaos to stop the mutation of his legion, he just gave up, caved in and joined Horus.

I am also begining to see that a lot of the Primarchs, on both sides, were more about their own agenda. Guilliman and El' Johnson being prime examples. They didn't want to join chaos, but they saw themselves as more than a weapon for teh Emporer to weild. Magnus probably had a similar view of himself.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

TheReverend said:


> I couldn't see Magnus as disloyal, I think he was a broken man by the time the Wolves had finished with him, the magnitude of his fuck up being realised, not just the webway, but the pact he made with chaos to stop the mutation of his legion, he just gave up, caved in and joined Horus.


I agree to cartain degree, but I do have some lingering doubts. The fact that he went over to Horus in the end indicates to me that there must have been some deeper fault in his character. If he was so wracked with guilt about his fucking up of the Emperor's pet project and his pact with the dark powers, surely he would have tried to atone for his mistakes any way he could, but instead he commits the ultimate betrayal.



TheReverend said:


> I am also begining to see that a lot of the Primarchs, on both sides, were more about their own agenda. Guilliman and El' Johnson being prime examples. They didn't want to join chaos, but they saw themselves as more than a weapon for the Emperor to wield. Magnus probably had a similar view of himself.


I think the general consensus is that while some of the primarchs were no more than weapons, and barely controllable ones at that (Mortarion, Angron and Curze), the likes of Guilliman, Magnus, Dorn, Jonson and Sanguinius seem to have been bred by the Emperor with more strings to their bows than being simply weapons.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I agree to cartain degree, but I do have some lingering doubts. The fact that he went over to Horus in the end indicates to me that there must have been some deeper fault in his character. If he was so wracked with guilt about his fucking up of the Emperor's pet project and his pact with the dark powers, surely he would have tried to atone for his mistakes any way he could, but instead he commits the ultimate betrayal.


I think it was more about survival at that point. He was damned in the eyes of the loyalists. Especially after what the Wolves witness when fighting them on Prospero. He was a daemon prince with a shattered army of mutating sorcerers. Not to mention he still had a company of Space Wolves after him.

Frankly, I even doubt that any of the loyalists would have accepted his help. They hardly trusted him before the events of the Heresy and Prospero, so the chances of them trusting and working with him afterward (especially considering the whole him now being a daemon thing) seems spectacularly small.

So yeah, I think he knew redemption was out of the question so he threw his lot in with the side that provided him with the best chance of protecting himself and the remnants of his legion.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Xisor said:


> The Golden Throne was used by the Emperor (and, at the end of his life, Malcador) to control the Imperial 'branch' of the webway. The Emperor created this 'branch' after Ullanor and his retreat to Terra and then into seclusion in the laboratories in the dungeons. It's covered in _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_ in two passages titled "The Golden Throne" and, appropriately, "Beyond the Golden Throne".
> 
> Magnus' message to the Emperor, sorcerer as it was and taking quick-routes through the webway at the behest of what's basically implied to be Tzeentch itself... well, to speak to the Emperor he has to break down all the wards, protections and defences that keep the daemons of the warp and other psykers out.
> 
> ...


Cool, Xisor, thanks! Must make sure to read those stories in Collected Visions. I have the book sitting on my bookshelf but can't get myself to read such a huge tome...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Dude, that's your interpretation of things. We have absolutely no idea how things went down there.


That is not my intrepretation. Those are the very words of Magnus when asked by his own men. I suggest you re-read that part. He literally says that the wolves were about to destroy the library. He says he "stopped them."





Chompy Bits said:


> And I'm not saying that that is how it happened either. But I do believe that my version has more actual evidence from the book to support it. The point is, we don't know what happened so, while we can speculate, none of us can peddle off their own theories as the truth.


I think you should re-read this book. Because apparently I have my own theories about this.





Chompy Bits said:


> Again, your opinion. And he never attacked Russ. In fact, Russ was the one who threatened to kill him during their initial meeting. And this after demanding that Magnus drop what he was doing and help him, even though he holds absolutely no authority over Magnus. So to recap, Russ sends a lacky to demand Magnus' aid. Then insults him and threatens to kill him when Magnus attempts to do the same. Then wants his help but refuses to allow him any say in how the compliance is being handled. I don't know about you, but if a brother treated me like that I'd be quite inclined to tell him to go fuck himself. And what right did he actually have to get pissy about Magnus "shedding Fenrisian blood" when he himself was directly responsible for the deaths of a large number of Sons during the same conflict?


Ahriman: My lord? What is happening?

Magnus: I secured the Great Library with the Scarab Cult... but Skarsssen's Great Company arrived right on our heels. They sought to destroy the library.
I stopped them.

Page 230 _A Thousand Sons_

So now that I've taken my time to prove to you he struck first from his own lips. Lets go back to my previous statements. HE IS A FUCKING TRAITOR.


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## gatorgav (Feb 6, 2009)

As evidenced by the invasion of Prospero, even if Magnus considers himself loyal he has been branded a “traitor” at that point by the emperor. Does it really matter how Magnus regards himself at that point? To me the real point is when did he turn to chaos and on that front, I don’t think we’ve been given the full story yet. I want to know what happens about two seconds after the prologue of A Thousand Sons ends, when Magnus is on his way to kill Ahriman over the rubric. Obviously Ahriman doesn’t die. To me, A Thousand Sons is the story of the fall of the legion, what I really want however, is the full story of the rubric and Magnus’ journey to Chaos. His life has been steered and manipulated by Tzeench, all that is left is for him to give in to the higher mysteries.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> That is not my intrepretation. Those are the very words of Magnus when asked by his own men. I suggest you re-read that part. He literally says that the wolves were about to destroy the library. He says he "stopped them."
> 
> I think you should re-read this book. Because apparently I have my own theories about this.
> 
> ...


Page 232: "We did not start this fight, Ahzek," said Magnus "but if need be we will finish it."

And stopping someone can be as simple as barring their way, without resorting to violence. It's all about your interpretation of a single word. I've stopped people from doing things before without resorting to violence. I'm pretty sure a primarch could find a way to do so as well.

Look, I don't particularly like Magnus. He was an arrogant fool who should have listened to the Emperor. And the way he handled things after he realised his fuckup makes me want to punch him in the nads. But I do not believe that he was inherently evil nor acted purposefully with malicious intent against the Imperium. He did what he did with the best intentions in mind. But then they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In simple terms, Tzeentch trolled him and the fool fell for it.

But, alas, you and I never seem to see eye to eye on this subject so we might as well agree to disagree.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Page 232: "We did not start this fight, Ahzek," said Magnus "but if need be we will finish it."


That's Magnus' warped intrepretation of what happened. Not reality. Just because the Wolves started to destroy the library doesn't mean they started the fight. That's how Magnus views it.



Chompy Bits said:


> And stopping someone can be as simple as barring their way, without resorting to violence. It's all about your interpretation of a single word. I've stopped people from doing things before without resorting to violence. I'm pretty sure a primarch could find a way to do so as well.


Chompy Bits, I know you are smart enough to know that you don't stop the wolves by simply "barring their way" to the library, especially if they had gotten into the library, "right at their heels." 

To suggest that Magnus meant to restrain the vicious and savage wolves by Judo chopping them James Bond style on the back and then duct tapping them together until Magnus arrived is just redicolous. I think you are trying too hard to justify Magnus' actions.

Remember, Astartes are not your typical 1 in a zillion trillion Guardsmen. They are priceless genetically enhanced warriors with rare armor who are pretty much irreplacable. Especially if their geneseed is destroyed. There is no Excuse for Magnus to kill these warriors that take so many resources and years to develop simply to protect and persue his own agenda. 

I'm just using you as an example. Most people don't even know that line I just mentioned to you. Seriously! They don't. Its all the wolves fault they think. But that split seccond of reality was put in the novel on purpose.


Now lets move to the Council of Nikea. The Emperor knew about Magnus' powers and (here comes my thought) his capabilities. The news that Magnus was now willing to attack other legions and even fight his own brother primarchs in his persuit of knowledge for his own agenda was something that deeply disturbed the Emperor and many of the Primarchs. 

MAGNUS THINKS HES LOYAL. Simply because he justifies his actions as doing the right thing. To protect knowledge forbidden lore despite its consequences... but for what? To what end? What contributions did he hope to achieve for the better of mankind? The Emperor was already persuing the Imperial Webway? So wtf is Magnus doing but wasting his time and using up valuable resources for his own agenda. _Ambition and Conquest without contribution is without significance._ 

I think the Council of Nikea was a pat on the back for Magnus. A primarch demanding the death of another loyalist legion is disturbing. I imagine fights between lesser astartes from the legion was frequent. But a primarch actually demanding it? 

What if Russ was killed because of Magnus' actions? What if Lorgar was accidentally killed by Magnus' powers? How would have Magnus been treated? How should he have been treated?


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

I never understood why they didn't make more armour / clone Marines - after 10 millenia of fighting - one would expect some forward thinking and perhaps the introduction of new technologies - alas for nearly 10,000 + years Humanities / Imperium technology has stagnated.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Zetronus said:


> I never understood why they didn't make more armour / clone Marines - after 10 millenia of fighting - one would expect some forward thinking and perhaps the introduction of new technologies - alas for nearly 10,000 + years Humanities / Imperium technology has stagnated.


You know why that is right? Over the 10 millenia of fighting, records have been destroyed, and knowledge has been lost. They couldn't really do anything to stop the stagnation. As for armor, its mass produced using cheaper and more abundant materials. When your under assault on all fronts, its quantity over quality every time. 

Isn't it pretty much impossible to clone marines anyway? And what does that have to do with the thread?

@ckcrawford
When did he demand the death of another legion? I don't remember reading that


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> That's Magnus' warped intrepretation of what happened. Not reality. Just because the Wolves started to destroy the library doesn't mean they started the fight. That's how Magnus views it.


Or that is simply your interpretation of how he views it. I don't mean to be rude, but don't you think it's kind of arrogant to assume that you have a better insight than anyone else into Magnus' thoughts? Like I said, we have no concrete facts about how it went down. You might be right about how things went. But the point is, so could I. It is never shown who throws the first punch. I actually think it was left deliberately ambiguous so that we do not know who started the conflict.



ckcrawford said:


> Chompy Bits, I know you are smart enough to know that you don't stop the wolves by simply "barring their way" to the library, especially if they had gotten into the library, "right at their heels."
> 
> To suggest that Magnus meant to restrain the vicious and savage wolves by Judo chopping them James Bond style on the back and then duct tapping them together until Magnus arrived is just redicolous. I think you are trying too hard to justify Magnus' actions.


How about a giant kine shield? Non-violent and would prevent the Wolves from advancing towards the library. And we know that this is something Magnus is capable of. I'm not trying to justify his actions because there is nothing to justify. All we witness him actually doing is deep frying two of Russ' fake wolves . The rest of his actions is pure speculation on our part. We do know for a fact that Russ killed a large number of Thousand Sons. Yet you choose to ignore that.

I would also like to point this quote out that you also seemed to ignore.
Page 230: "There is to be no killing, my sons", said Magnus. "We will have no blood on our hands from a fight that is not of our making." 

Which would indeed imply that he found a non-violent way to prevent the Wolves from advancing. Or are you seriously going to tell me that Magnus is SO delusional that he conveniently forgets killing Wolves mere moments after it happened?



ckcrawford said:


> Remember, Astartes are not your typical 1 in a zillion trillion Guardsmen. They are priceless genetically enhanced warriors with rare armor who are pretty much irreplacable. Especially if their geneseed is destroyed. There is no Excuse for Magnus to kill these warriors that take so many resources and years to develop simply to protect and persue his own agenda.


I could say the exact same thing about Russ brain pulping a large number of Thousand Sons. Yet I don't see you condemning him. What makes him special that he's allowed to kill astartes but not Magnus (which again is never difinitively confirmed)? And you're again jumping to conclusions. Where does it state that he destroyed their geneseed? Or personally killed any of them for that matter? The only indication at all that we have that the Space Wolves took casualties was Russ' statement about Fenrisian blood being spilt. And we are given no indication as to who or what these supposed casualties actually are.



ckcrawford said:


> Now lets move to the Council of Nikea. The Emperor knew about Magnus' powers and (here comes my thought) his capabilities. The news that Magnus was now willing to attack other legions and even fight his own brother primarchs in his persuit of knowledge for his own agenda was something that deeply disturbed the Emperor and many of the Primarchs.


And this all boils down to who actually attacked who. Also, I would like to point out that Russ was just as eager, if not more so, to throw it down with Magnus. And given Russ' history as a supposed executioner of brothers, I'd be more inclined to believe that he would be the one to start a fight.




ckcrawford said:


> MAGNUS THINKS HES LOYAL. Simply because he justifies his actions as doing the right thing. To protect knowledge forbidden lore despite its consequences... but for what? To what end? What contributions did he hope to achieve for the better of mankind? The Emperor was already persuing the Imperial Webway? So wtf is Magnus doing but wasting his time and using up valuable resources for his own agenda. _Ambition and Conquest without contribution is without significance._


And how was Magnus supposed to know that the Emperor had already discovered the webway? The Emperor never told anyone and the only reason Magnus knew was because he took the time to find out for himself. As far as Magnus knew at the time, he had made a discovery that could have reshaped the entire future of the Imperium. And he was only using the resources of his own legion, like all the other legions did. 



ckcrawford said:


> I think the Council of Nikea was a pat on the back for Magnus. A primarch demanding the death of another loyalist legion is disturbing. I imagine fights between lesser astartes from the legion was frequent. But a primarch actually demanding it?


Okay, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Nikea was a call to end the use of psychic powers within the legions, not to sentence the Sons to death. Which seems highly hypocritical on Russ' part seeing as he ended up completely ignoring the ruling he asked for.



ckcrawford said:


> What if Russ was killed because of Magnus' actions? What if Lorgar was accidentally killed by Magnus' powers? How would have Magnus been treated? How should he have been treated?


And what if Magnus was killed by Russ' actions? And I find it interesting that you assume that it would be Magnus' fault if Lorgar fell considering that it was Russ who was on the verge of striking him down to get to Magnus.


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## Thrud (Jun 23, 2012)

Hello

Magnus was loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, at least in his own mind, right up until the end of Thousand Sons. We know he idolised his father and was a mirror, making the same mistakes as him (pacts and secrets with the warp). They were also meant to have been the closest on a spiritual level. Perhaps only Malcador had a closer understanding.

He was so broken about what he had done to the Emperor and to his great plan, that he sat back and allowed his planet, his legion and then himself to destroyed by The Wolves.

Its been a while since I read it, but I am pretty sure Magnus does not lift a finge to save himself or his Legion. He accepts what his has done and his punishment for his part in it.

So I am not sure that I buy he would just switch sides. The problem is we never get really good motivations for why certain players turned against the Emperor. Rememebr it was not just a rebellion against the Emperor and the way he was doing things, but an eventual pact with the dark gods themselves.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Spoiler alert for Legion!

If anyone recalls, Alpharius and Omegon came to the conclusion that the Emperors dream (Which they reasoned to be the fall of chaos) would be realized when chaos became victorious. 

This because chaos will consume itself once it becomes all powerfull.

What if Magnus came to the same conclusion?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Thrud said:


> Hello
> 
> Magnus was loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, at least in his own mind, right up until the end of Thousand Sons. We know he idolised his father and was a mirror, making the same mistakes as him (pacts and secrets with the warp). They were also meant to have been the closest on a spiritual level. Perhaps only Malcador had a closer understanding.
> 
> ...


At the very end he ends up joining his legion in the fight by fighting Russ. Then there was his Equerry who gave Ahriman that book on Magnus's command, I believe, which led the remnants of the Thousand Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers. I wouldn't exactly say he did nothing to save himself or his legion. He just didn't do much


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Or that is simply your interpretation of how he views it. I don't mean to be rude, but don't you think it's kind of arrogant to assume that you have a better insight than anyone else into Magnus' thoughts? Like I said, we have no concrete facts about how it went down. You might be right about how things went. But the point is, so could I. It is never shown who throws the first punch. I actually think it was left deliberately ambiguous so that we do not know who started the conflict.


No, he was Arrogant and Selfish. We know that. I don't think you can really say he wasn't, even if you think he is innocent in one form or another. 

Its simple really. He was Arrogant and selfish. Thus, it is fair to say through his selfishness to seek power this was not something that was going to coexist well with the rest of the Imperium. We see the wolves for example. Even Mortarion and Corax heavily disaprove of Magnus.





> How about a giant kine shield? Non-violent and would prevent the Wolves from advancing towards the library. And we know that this is something Magnus is capable of. I'm not trying to justify his actions because there is nothing to justify. All we witness him actually doing is deep frying two of Russ' fake wolves . The rest of his actions is pure speculation on our part. We do know for a fact that Russ killed a large number of Thousand Sons. Yet you choose to ignore that.


It was not his place to demand the attacking of another legion. We can also assume that the Wolve's in this regard are a legion (Primarch including)that the Emperor really trusts. If of course you believe the Emperor trusted him to destroy two legions and you also read about Russ' true personality in _Prospero Burns._



> I would also like to point this quote out that you also seemed to ignore.
> Page 230: "There is to be no killing, my sons", said Magnus. "We will have no blood on our hands from a fight that is not of our making."


Again, another intrepretation of Magnus. He believes his selfishness and actions are justified if he is defending a library with interesting lore. If Russ attacked the Library, he must defend it. That's how Magnus see's it. If I burn the library then its not my fault we must fight. Its yours.

Which would indeed imply that he found a non-violent way to prevent the Wolves from advancing. Or are you seriously going to tell me that Magnus is SO delusional that he conveniently forgets killing Wolves mere moments after it happened?

No but you forget about Magnus' arrogance. He believes he is right. All his actions. Right or wrong.




> I could say the exact same thing about Russ brain pulping a large number of Thousand Sons. Yet I don't see you condemning him. What makes him special that he's allowed to kill astartes but not Magnus (which again is never difinitively confirmed)? And you're again jumping to conclusions. Where does it state that he destroyed their geneseed? Or personally killed any of them for that matter? The only indication at all that we have that the Space Wolves took casualties was Russ' statement about Fenrisian blood being spilt. And we are given no indication as to who or what these supposed casualties actually are.


This is assuming that the Wolves started this. It was Magnus. And he whines because he believes he can say the wolves started it because they are the ones that started destroying the library. 

Magnus crossed the line. This is why there was a council. At least, this part can be interpreted differently I assume. Magnus was too self absorbed in seeking knowledge. He forgot about the grand idea of the Imperium. The Wolves are part of it. They are the destroyers of things that must be no more. No one told Magnus to defend that library. That was Magnus. He knew he was fighting with wolves. 

If I'm fighting with animals on my side I would be insane to believe the aren't going to start eating the carcasses of our enemies. 




> And this all boils down to who actually attacked who. Also, I would like to point out that Russ was just as eager, if not more so, to throw it down with Magnus. And given Russ' history as a supposed executioner of brothers, I'd be more inclined to believe that he would be the one to start a fight.


But then you would also be forgetting that Russ was hesitant to give the final assault command in _Prospero Burns._ He gave him a chance. Whether it was a nasty one or not, it shows there are other things going on inside Russ' head than execution.





> Okay, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Nikea was a call to end the use of psychic powers within the legions, not to sentence the Sons to death. Which seems highly hypocritical on Russ' part seeing as he ended up completely ignoring the ruling he asked for.
> 
> 
> 
> And what if Magnus was killed by Russ' actions? And I find it interesting that you assume that it would be Magnus' fault if Lorgar fell considering that it was Russ who was on the verge of striking him down to get to Magnus.


I didn't say it was to sentence them to death. But condemn Magnus for his possible actions. Which... not to mention was a result of his arrogance. 

As for you last question. That very interesting.

Would the Emperor have condemned Russ for killing Magnus over something like that. I would say yes.

But its not for the reasons you think. I believe the Emperor had a plan with him and the golden throne. If Russ had anihilated the legion and left him alive. Then I would say no. I don't think the emperor would be pissed.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

The problem with stuff like this is that it isn't just black and white. It's not Good and Evil, Pure or Fallen. Thematically, it's the War in Heaven, but it's not the same beyond the theme. The details are wildly different.

Chaos isn't just... Pure Evil. It's not "Magnus was suddenly a bad guy". Like many "villains", he's a guy in a bad place because of bad decisions he - and others- made. 

Ultimately, Chaos isn't given enough credit for its subtlety. It offers you a little more, each time, keeping your ultimate goal just out of reach. You get addicted, and think that - for you - it's different. You can master it, because, hey! you seem to be doing okay so far, right? You won't go as far as the other guys. You don't want what they wanted. You only want a little more, just enough to get by. Maybe you'll give it up completely after that. Maybe you don't have anything to do with it at all, right? 

You may never even know you're being manipulated. Magnus didn't. You can obviously think you'd be totally aware, but there've been plenty of times in your life you've not been aware you were being manipulated, and it's far, far, far from as simple as "I'd refuse Chaos, because I don't want tentacles, and I'd be aware of it trying to get me."

Well. No, you wouldn't. That's often the point. It's not all about living in the Eye of Terror and hanging out with mutants while screaming dark prayers of dark darkness. Chaos isn't always that blatant or obscene. 

Magnus was arrogant and well-intentioned in equal measure. That arrogance and his own good intentions put him in a compromising position. Several compromising positions, in fact. It's not an insult to his character to point out that he was arrogant and thought he understood more than he did. It doesn't make us, as readers, like him any less. All characters have flaws.

Look at Konrad Curze. He's not on Horus's side because he flicks a metal sign and says "Chaos is super awesome." It's the same thing with Magnus. It's a bit more subtle than him just wanting to tear down the Imperium in a sudden "fall" like that trite bullshit we were forced to put up with from Anakin Skywalker, which was executed - at best - suddenly and poorly.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. You still end up in Hell, no matter why you started walking.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I dont remember it being answered here, but Mangus was a traitor as soon as he made a deal with the devil to get his sons back from the brink of distruction. I also think the big E is a collassa moron for dealing with chaos powers as well but what ever on that front right?. I feel like mangus has the best of intention at the onset but then once you have russ break your back and daddy tell you to fuck off, why would you not enter into the welcome arms of a god who does love you?

I for one like the idea of the subtle Chaos. Gentiles and horns are all well and good, but that hardly gets you converts. I know my next army will me following the changer of ways as a chaos army but I am going to go out of my way to make them all look as normal as I can, its the people that they bring to the alter so to speak that get the big changes.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> No, he was Arrogant and Selfish. We know that. I don't think you can really say he wasn't, even if you think he is innocent in one form or another.
> 
> Its simple really. He was Arrogant and selfish. Thus, it is fair to say through his selfishness to seek power this was not something that was going to coexist well with the rest of the Imperium. We see the wolves for example. Even Mortarion and Corax heavily disaprove of Magnus.


Arrogant and selfish descriptions can be labelled to quite a few of the primarchs. And you make Magnus sound as though he was always this power hungry, mad lunatic who only wanted to make himself more powerful. Which just isn't true. He ultimately wanted to use the knowledge he discovered to advance mankind and allow them to transcend their current boundaries. It's a theme throughout the whole book. At the time of the library incident he was trying to save knowledge he thought could be important to the Imperium. His actions on the webway planet? Trying to secure what he thought was a potentially empire changing artifact and means of transport for the Imperium. Even his deal with Tzeentch was to save his sons, not to make himself more uber.

The Wolves had a problem with the Sons because Chaos cultivated a problem between the Wolves and the Sons for years long before the heresy even started. And Mortarion was biased because of his own past upbringing. And I'm unsure about the Corax situation, not only because given what is described in _Deliverance Lost_ his time of being discovered might have been retconned to come after Magnus, but because IIRC he was critical of the Sons suffering the fleshchange before the coming of Magnus, not after. 




ckcrawford said:


> It was not his place to demand the attacking of another legion. We can also assume that the Wolve's in this regard are a legion (Primarch including)that the Emperor really trusts. If of course you believe the Emperor trusted him to destroy two legions and you also read about Russ' true personality in _Prospero Burns._


And this comes from your assumption, which again is contradicted twice within the book itself, that the Sons attacked first. And the Emperor clearly still trusted Magnus at that point as well, as he hadn't called them on any of their actions up until Russ decided to complain. Plus, if you recall the Emperor didn't want Nikaea. He was forced by others to call the council. Which would indicate that he still trusted Magnus even then.




ckcrawford said:


> Again, another intrepretation of Magnus. He believes his selfishness and actions are justified if he is defending a library with interesting lore. If Russ attacked the Library, he must defend it. That's how Magnus see's it. If I burn the library then its not my fault we must fight. Its yours.
> 
> No but you forget about Magnus' arrogance. He believes he is right. All his actions. Right or wrong.


Again you're assuming you know Magnus' thought processes better than anyone else and interpreting things to suite your point of view. Like I mentioned, the Sons had damage from astartes weapons on their armour when Ahriman arrived, which means that the Wolves must have gotten close enough to attack. Given the nature of the Sons' fighting style it seems unlikely that this would have occurred if the Sons had gone on the offensive first. 

And tell me, what exactly was the point of the Wolves destroying the library? The whole reason shit got nasty was because the Sons had already arrived and secured it. Which means it was no longer a military threat. So why waste time and ammunition on something another legion already has control over? It seems like a pointless pissing contest instigated by the Wolves. Or maybe the control of the Wolves had started to slip and their more bestial natures had started dictating their actions. Which would then make them attacking the Sons more likely than the opposite being true.



ckcrawford said:


> This is assuming that the Wolves started this. It was Magnus. And he whines because he believes he can say the wolves started it because they are the ones that started destroying the library.


You continue to say this but you have yet to provide a single shred of conclusive proof that states that Magnus attacked the Wolves first.




ckcrawford said:


> Magnus crossed the line. This is why there was a council. At least, this part can be interpreted differently I assume. Magnus was too self absorbed in seeking knowledge. He forgot about the grand idea of the Imperium. The Wolves are part of it. They are the destroyers of things that must be no more. No one told Magnus to defend that library. That was Magnus. He knew he was fighting with wolves.


Grand idea? Like uniting the lost fragments of humanity and re-discovering lost knowledge? As opposed to simply killing and flattening everything in their path? Who gave Russ the right to decide that everything must be destroyed? Wasn't it Lorgar who discovered those systems in anyways, so the call should have fallen to him? And it was Russ who (rudely) called for Magnus' assistance. He knew the doctrine of Magnus and his legion and knew they wouldn't just let potentially useful knowledge go to waste. If he wanted to flatten everything he should have called the World Eaters. The fact is that Russ knew that the skill set of the Sons would allow them to finish the campaign much quicker. So he demands their help and then condemns them for the abilities that make them so effective (and which he chose to call upon to aid him in the first place) and then basically tells them to fuck off afterward without getting a say in how the rest of the compliance is to be handled.

As for the library. So Magnus defended it. There's a huge difference between attack and defence. He could easily have protected the library without attacking the Wolves. You mentioned his line "I stopped them" which you choose to interpret as he attacked them, something that doesn't mesh with his character. Well, I can say that "I stopped them" means that the Wolves attacked the library and he simply shielded the library from their attack. Which is completely possible, and actually fits with the other comments about the Sons NOT starting the conflict.

And the Sons make a big deal about killing warriors from another legion and not being able to go back after that at the Siege of Propsero, something they wouldn't have done if they'd already killed Wolves at the library. 



ckcrawford said:


> If I'm fighting with animals on my side I would be insane to believe the aren't going to start eating the carcasses of our enemies.


Huh? What?



ckcrawford said:


> But then you would also be forgetting that Russ was hesitant to give the final assault command in _Prospero Burns._ He gave him a chance. Whether it was a nasty one or not, it shows there are other things going on inside Russ' head than execution.


No, but this is two very different situations. He was pissed at Shrike and wanted to strike out at Magnus, and would have if Lorgar hadn't intervened (and let's not forget that he threatened Lorgar as well). In _Prospero Burns_ his decision making wasn't clouded by anger so he could think more clearly about what he was about to do. While it shows a different side to him, it doesn't change his earlier actions.



ckcrawford said:


> I didn't say it was to sentence them to death. But condemn Magnus for his possible actions. Which... not to mention was a result of his arrogance.


The council wasn't about the pursuit of knowledge in general. It was about the pursuit and practice of warpcraft specifically and its applications within the Imperium. While Magnus was a key element at the council, it wasn't solely about him. The cabal of librarians from other legions were there defending their own right to use their warp born powers, not Magnus. And they probably could have succeeded if agents of chaos hadn't interfered in the proceedings. 



ckcrawford said:


> As for you last question. That very interesting.
> 
> Would the Emperor have condemned Russ for killing Magnus over something like that. I would say yes.
> 
> But its not for the reasons you think. I believe the Emperor had a plan with him and the golden throne. If Russ had anihilated the legion and left him alive. Then I would say no. I don't think the emperor would be pissed.


You honestly want to tell me that if the Wolves, without any sanction from the Emperor, destroyed a fellow legion *over a library*, thereby wasting countless resources and weakening or destroying a significant part of the Imperium's military force at the time, that the Emperor wouldn't be pissed. Yeah... sure...


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Magnus is definitely loyal, spelt with a capital 'traitor'. 
FFS he's now a Daemon Prince and insane - those two don't really fulfill the 'loyal' category in my book.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

I'd agree that Magnus and the Sons were doomed from the moment he made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. No matter what his intentions after that it was only a matter of time before the debt was called in, and he was maneuvered in to a choice between seeing his legion destroyed and throwing his lot in with Chaos. Silly sod really.


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## Thrud (Jun 23, 2012)

He was doomed from inception. The Emperor obviously built the Thousand Sons with something in mind, but they were broken beyond repair, and all the Emperor did was palm them off to his favoured son, and then what? Expect him to sit back and watch them mutate and die one by one.

I am convinced the Magnus did nothing the Emperor has not already done. False Gods implies that the Emperor had some kind of pact with chaos, and he had tricked them somehow as part of his master plan. And the scattering of the Primarchs was the first step in striking back. Whatever the Emperor had done, perhaps harnessed warp craft the constructiong the Primarchs and the Space Marines. This may explain why almost of the chapters are corrupted and / or mutated.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

It seems that everyone is forgetting one thing though. Russ was manipulated by Valdor and Horus, who's treachery was unknown at the time, into destroying Magnus and his legion. The Emperor only wanted Russ to bring Magnus to him. To do what? We will never know, though we can assume Magnus and his legion would be held on Terra under close observation, or perhaps they would be destroyed rather than battered and broken as they are now.

I wouldn't go far as to say the Emperor gave Magnus the finger and said "Fuck you."


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## Thrud (Jun 23, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> It seems that everyone is forgetting one thing though. Russ was manipulated by Valdor and Horus, who's treachery was unknown at the time,


Only if you ignore The Outcast Dead.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Magnus is definitely loyal, spelt with a capital 'traitor'.
> FFS he's now a Daemon Prince and insane - those two don't really fulfill the 'loyal' category in my book.


Ahriman is a traitor as well, but he does not believe he is corrupted. I have not read the fiction, but have heard the story where he seems to keep with the original intent the 1000 sons had for the warp. It is a weapon, it is who wields it that is good or evil.

Ok, lets put the 'is he loyal now' thing on the side. The original point is that the only one who could have made him 'turn' was the Emperor. He went well out of his way to make sure he, his planet, and his Legion would be destroyed... and than at the last momment he decides "nah" for no paticular reason? He had already turned down the cohersion of a GOD more than once when he could have swatted the oncoming fleet sent to destroy him like flies. He watched his planet burn and did nothing. He watched 9/10s of his legion die and did nothing (reducing them again to... 1000). Than with no explanation he just hops down off his tower and tells Russ "Lets get it on!".

It makes no sense. The only one who could get him to turn is the Emperor. Perhaps he really had to fully turn for whatever plan the Emperor was hatching to work. Maybe he didn't either way I am convinced he 'turned' because the Emperor wanted him to.

Magnus was always to smart for his own good to the level that he saw a part of the Emperor's plan with the webway when he was not meant to. The Emperor may have thought Magnus would turn on his own if he was attacked - but he didn't. That being the case the Big E came down and got him to.

In the book the fact that they made mention of the fact of "how did the Emperor know to name them 1000 sons before the mutations" shows he did have some idea what was coming. The fact at the end of the book they are again reduced to 1000 from the Space Wolves fully supports my hypothesis.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The problem with stuff like this is that it isn't just black and white. It's not Good and Evil, Pure or Fallen. Thematically, it's the War in Heaven, but it's not the same beyond the theme. The details are wildly different.
> 
> Chaos isn't just... Pure Evil. It's not "Magnus was suddenly a bad guy". Like many "villains", he's a guy in a bad place because of bad decisions he - and others- made.
> 
> ...


I would agree with this with the other 8 that fell but not Magnus. Yes, he was manipulated and your description as a well meaning arrogant fool is accurate. However unlike the others who knew that they were about to hit the point of no return and went anyway, Magnus turned back.

- Horus could have chosen to die in the dream sequence that corrupted him. -Lorgar could have told Argel Tal and company to lay down their weapons rather than fire on fellow Astartes, and if not that at least not follow the direction of a Daemon.
-Alpharius was a fool to listen to anything a xeno has to say.
-Fulgrim had much less control than the others since he was being coerced by a Daemon.

The others haven't been covered enough in the books to make a clear assessment of when they went "too far".

Magnus on the other hand saw the point of no return and said "No". In "1000 Sons" if they had covered what pushed him to change his mind I would go for it. If the Tzintche came back and said "are you really, really, REALLY sure?" and Magnus responded, "ok, you talked me into it". I could go for that.

The author either made a huge mistake in passing up the op. to describe the train of thought that led Magnus to turn, or it was done deliberately, because to show his reasoning would give too much away for later books.

Again with the above primarchs
-Horus thought the Emperor had betrayed them and wanted to become a god
-Fulgrim believed Horus, and was being coerced.
-Alpharius had some assanine higher good that xenos should inherit the Galaxy after human extinction.
-Lorgar wanted Gods to follow

There is nothing like that with Magnus. He laid down and was willing to die rather than turn, so the argument of "well, it just went too far and he changed his mind" holds no water. If you were committed not to turn on an attacker who burned down your house and killed 9 out of 10 of your children... than when he goes to finish off your last kid before he kills you you say "whoa whoa whoa, that's too far!" I don't buy it.

I think the most compelling part of my argument that the Emperor got him to turn is when they commented on "1000 sons" name itself. "How did the Emperor know you would be only 1000?" He was right with the name when Magnus "saved" his legion from mutation, and again when it was almost destroyed by the wolves. Coincidence???

I THINK NOT!


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## Thrud (Jun 23, 2012)

Zooey72 said:


> There is nothing like that with Magnus. He laid down and was willing to die rather than turn, so the argument of "well, it just went too far and he changed his mind" holds no water. If you were committed not to turn on an attacker who burned down your house and killed 9 out of 10 of your children... than when he goes to finish off your last kid before he kills you you say "whoa whoa whoa, that's too far!" I don't buy it.


I have never been able to reconcile this. I thought A Thousand Sons was going to change the Fluff to reflect Magnus not being part of the Heresey. But after building him up to be one thing, its seems he just reverts to pantomine villain after the end, with no good reason.

The whole HH series was a chance to get into each Primarch's mind and to know why they changed. I have yet to see a convining fall, apart from maybe Horus himself and Lorgar (granting that Fulgrim was possessed).

Did none of the other Primarchs take a step back, after all the wired daemon shot started happeneing and say this was not what they signed up for?

We had an entire book focusing on the Death Guard, and I am still no clearer as to exactly what beef Mortarian had with the Imperium. What a waste of half a book. 

And the We get Outcast dead ripping the very fabric, the very soul of Magnus story, and tossing it into the trash compactor. To me this is the central, most human aspect of the story. The tradegy, the son being guilty of the exact same things his father is. Secrets and Lies, and how it could have all been avoided had they trusted and listened to each other. And it was ruined by McNeil for reasons which escape me. I have not been able to pick up a HH book since, becuase I have realised that there is no real over arching plan, and characters motivations change depending on who is writting at the time. I dont want to invest any more time or emotion into something that will only anger me more. Its a shame, as they had something going for a while.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Thrud said:


> I have never been able to reconcile this. I thought A Thousand Sons was going to change the Fluff to reflect Magnus not being part of the Heresey. But after building him up to be one thing, its seems he just reverts to pantomine villain after the end, with no good reason.
> 
> The whole HH series was a chance to get into each Primarch's mind and to know why they changed. I have yet to see a convining fall, apart from maybe Horus himself and Lorgar (granting that Fulgrim was possessed).
> 
> ...



I hear you on "The Primarchs" as to why you don't want to spend any more time on it - at least as far as Fulgrim goes. For some reason the author thought that a wanna be hell raiser/exorcist short story was better than how the "Fulgrim" book was left off. How Fulgrim was left is deeply depressing, but still a great read.

Out of all the Primarchs Fulgrim was the only real victem of chaos. The rest went nutty by choice, but what happened to Fulgrim was like giving a guy 1000 hits of LSD and than driving him to the airport. Yes, crazy happens after that.

But to my original point with Magnus. There is no explanation why he "took the last step", to chaos. I prefer to think it was intentional, because not to write his last step to madness would be utter stupidity by the author.

Horus himself said that Magnus was the second biggest threat, right behind the Emp. I do write some. I would be creaming my jeans to be able to have the final word on what pushed Magnus over the edge.

The fact that the author chose not to says one of 2 things. He wrote a kick ass book that I love, and than at the end had a stroke and decided "Nah, I don't want to write the most interesting part". Or he deliberately left it out.

I don't think McNeil is dumb.


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## Vociferous Noun (Aug 5, 2012)

Magnus was loyal in so far that he only turned to Chaos when he had no other option. It was either that or see the complete destruction of everything he held dear, followed by his own annihilation.

He knew that the events leading up to the burning of Prospero were brought in being by a combination of his own arrogance, conceit and the masterful manipulations of an intellect far superior to his own. 

He understood the enormity of what he'd done when he brutally forced his way through the webway to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. He had effectively destroyed the Emperor's grand plan for essentially insulating humanity from the predations of Chaos. Magnus despaired when he realised he had pretty much just assigned Mankind to slavery.

For a long while he was willing to accept punishment for his HUGE error of judgement, brought about, not only by a desire to warn the Imperium of the impending civil war, but also by his own vanity; attempting to show his father that sorcery wasn't all bad and had its uses. He wanted to show that _he_ was right.

One of the more tragic falls to Chaos of any "traitor" Primarch, for sure.


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## Agarwaen (Oct 8, 2011)

Magnus is probably my favourite Primarch, and the TS my favourite legion. I no way do I think his story is finished, I believe a lot more will be revealed. To me, Magnus looked to Chaos as the only option to save his Legion, he had the right intentions, just not the best method. He loved his Legion, and couldn't bear to see them corrupted, and so did what he had to do. He flouted the decree on sorcery set down at Nikea, grew dissolusioned towards The Emperor, and finally couldnt take any more when Russ turned up and went mental, what was he supposed to do?


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

gatorgav said:


> As evidenced by the invasion of Prospero, even if Magnus considers himself loyal he has been branded a “traitor” at that point by the emperor. Does it really matter how Magnus regards himself at that point? To me the real point is when did he turn to chaos and on that front, I don’t think we’ve been given the full story yet. I want to know what happens about two seconds after the prologue of A Thousand Sons ends, when Magnus is on his way to kill Ahriman over the rubric. Obviously Ahriman doesn’t die. To me, A Thousand Sons is the story of the fall of the legion, what I really want however, is the full story of the rubric and Magnus’ journey to Chaos. His life has been steered and manipulated by Tzeench, all that is left is for him to give in to the higher mysteries.


Yes it does... to us theoretician wonks :laugh:

Is there another series anywhere as large in scale with as many authors as the Warhammer 40K universe? As much as we know... we really don't know much as the authors seem to thrive at throwing us curve balls. To me the thousand sons is one of the larger tragedies of the HH. I believe he was loyal until he feared for his life and took the only avenue open for his survival. Such a waste. It would be interesting if it turned out Magnus remained loyal, if not all that believable...


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Thrud said:


> False Gods implies that the Emperor had some kind of pact with chaos, and he had tricked them somehow as part of his master plan. And the scattering of the Primarchs was the first step in striking back. Whatever the Emperor had done, perhaps harnessed warp craft the constructiong the Primarchs and the Space Marines. This may explain why almost of the chapters are corrupted and / or mutated.


In False Gods, this bit of knowledge was imparted by a representative of chaos, and one of the things we all know about chaos is that it loves to lie and manipulate. I don't believe any of that. Chaos was just doing what it had to to influence a primarch.


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## khaosgurl (Jul 8, 2012)

You are right on, Magnus is repeatedly tempted he still stays loyal.
I've always harbored the belief that the Emperor wanted most (if not all) the primarchs to all kill each other off eventually. *Spoilers from The Outcast Dead* He wanted to do what he did to the Thunder Warriors...he could unit humanity and be sharing the loyalty with his sons in my opinion. 

To me there is evidenced by the way he screwed so many of his sons especially Magnus. Also what kinda dick sends one son (Gulliman) to punish another (Lorgar)? I mean seriously grow a pair and discipline your own kid. Maybe this was all a excellently laid chaos plan but I don't think so...the Emperor wanted them to turn to chaos. He just didn't plan on actually ending up caring about one of them and dying.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cheeto said:


> In False Gods, this bit of knowledge was imparted by a representative of chaos, and one of the things we all know about chaos is that it loves to lie and manipulate. I don't believe any of that. Chaos was just doing what it had to to influence a primarch.


Such information hasn't just come from daemons though.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Such information hasn't just come from daemons though.


Daemons... people who consort with daemons... 

Even if they wrote it out specifically that the emperor, who actively fights against the idea of religion that chaos thrives on worked with the gods of chaos to engineer the primarchs, it makes no sense that the gods of chaos would assist him or that he would seek their aid. I'd accept it but I would accept it like any bad story line they could print up.

In legion it was insinuated that the Geno Five-Two Chiliad were the inspiration for the gene science behind the primarchs, and as we have already seen he was already busy engineering super soldiers in the form of the thunder warriors. The astartes and their primarchs seem like the next step in that evolution. 

I could accept that Magnus was loyal right up to the point in which he became a daemon prince, and that the Alpha Legion may actively be infiltrating Horus from within and not actually being traitors, but some things are just too hard to reason out. The gods of chaos and the emperor just don't work together, they oppose each other. Maybe it's just me but I've noticed that in life things tend to be really simple when you filter through other people's bs. The idea that Magnus could be loyal or that the emperor worked with the gods of chaos just seems too over the top.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

cheeto said:


> Daemons... people who consort with daemons...
> 
> Even if they wrote it out specifically that the emperor, who actively fights against the idea of religion that chaos thrives on worked with the gods of chaos to engineer the primarchs, it makes no sense that the gods of chaos would assist him or that he would seek their aid. I'd accept it but I would accept it like any bad story line they could print up.
> 
> ...


Sometimes even deamons have no need to lie. They only tell the truth because they know that they wont be entirely believed. This is part of how they manipulate people. To me, what you believe doesn't really make sense when put into the context of the heresy.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> Sometimes even deamons have no need to lie. They only tell the truth because they know that they wont be entirely believed. This is part of how they manipulate people. To me, what you believe doesn't really make sense when put into the context of the heresy.


Sometimes they don't. I just don't think it makes sense that the emperor would have to consult the willing gods of chaos for some genetic advice... but that's just me


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cheeto said:


> Daemons... people who consort with daemons...


The problem is, who else would know? Magnus himself mentions that the Emperor had made deals with the gods, in the context of justifying his own dealings with them.

Also, daemons are not incapable of telling the truth. They may have more reasons to lie, but certain truths (in this respect; ones that revealed the hypocrisy and hubris of the Emperor) are much more effective than any lie.



cheeto said:


> Even if they wrote it out specifically that the emperor, who actively fights against the idea of religion that chaos thrives on worked with the gods of chaos to engineer the primarchs, it makes no sense that the gods of chaos would assist him or that he would seek their aid. I'd accept it but I would accept it like any bad story line they could print up.


The hypocrisy of the Emperor is one of the most fascinating affairs of the Heresy, and truly adds to the Emperor's character. The idea of utilising warp energy - to the extent that the Dark Gods became involved on some level - to forge the Primarchs was one of the most interesting and welcome plot points involved in the Heresy series in my opinion. 



cheeto said:


> The gods of chaos and the emperor just don't work together, they oppose each other.


But why do they oppose each other? And have they always openly and directly opposed each other? The Chaos Gods oppose the Emperor because his rise to power threatened their position. The Emperor opposes the Chaos Gods because they desire to enslave mankind to their capricious whims. But before the Emperor rose to power with the Unification Wars and openly opposed the Chaos Gods, why is it "over the top" to suggest that the Emperor may have made deals or pacts with them? Such pacts are a common method by which the gods and their daemons corrupt mortals, so that justifies the Dark Gods' willingness to deal with the Emperor. The Emperor himself may have needed such power for his long-term goals - even if his intention was always to go back on such dealings - which justifies the Emperor's willingness to deal with the gods.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The problem is, who else would know? Magnus himself mentions that the Emperor had made deals with the gods, in the context of justifying his own dealings with them.
> 
> Also, daemons are not incapable of telling the truth. They may have more reasons to lie, but certain truths (in this respect; ones that revealed the hypocrisy and hubris of the Emperor) are much more effective than any lie.
> 
> ...


It could turn out that is how it worked out... Just saying it sounds really lame. Up is down, left is right, cats and dogs living together... Still don't see what power is involved in genetic engineering. I'm just tired of these story lines we see all the time in movies in which the whole story ends up being all in some guys head to make sense of everything we just saw.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cheeto said:


> Still don't see what power is involved in genetic engineering.


Ah, this may be why you're having an issue with this particular affair. The Primarchs weren't just forged via "genetic engineering", and neither did the Emperor treat with Chaos simply for genetic secrets. The Primarchs were created with gargantuan amounts of warp energy, to the extent that in some respects their power exceeded the Emperor's own. The Emperor used the warp to unlock the secrets of creation, such dabblings in the immaterium wouldn't have escaped the attention of the masters of that realm. Thus, either a confrontation or some manner of dealing between the two parties was probably an inevitability. But the manner of said dealing is a complete mystery, I don't think it should be viewed as the Chaos Gods and the Emperor directly aiding each other or working together though.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ah, this may be why you're having an issue with this particular affair. The Primarchs weren't just forged via "genetic engineering", and neither did the Emperor treat with Chaos simply for genetic secrets. The Primarchs were created with gargantuan amounts of warp energy, to the extent that in some respects their power exceeded the Emperor's own. The Emperor used the warp to unlock the secrets of creation, such dabblings in the immaterium wouldn't have escaped the attention of the masters of that realm. Thus, either a confrontation or some manner of dealing between the two parties was probably an inevitability. But the manner of said dealing is a complete mystery, I don't think it should be viewed as the Chaos Gods and the Emperor directly aiding each other or working together though.


It's been a while since I read False Gods, but isn't the inference that there was collusion between the emperor and the gods of chaos? What you are saying sounds a lot more like the imperium using the warp as a tool like astropaths, navigators and psychers. I would never argue that chaos is not capable of telling the truth. I just believe that with all the truth they do tell, there is likely portion of lies mixed in to sweeten the result in their favor. What you are saying makes a lot more sense, I may just be rusty on my HH lore :dunno:


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