# Problems with Duality



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

In all great literature there are two sides always. Light and Dark, Fire and Water, positive and negative. There is always an opposite force. In 40k literature I have stumbled upon a problem that I couldn't quite answer.

So when I described Chaos to a friend, he asked me so that's hell basically, and I had to agree (its written several times that the warp is hell in several novels) Then who are the good guys in heaven?

I couldn't answer him that. I could say that the emperor, but the emperor isnt a god, just a strong psychic. Thats when my friend gave me a lecture on how all great literature has an element of duality. 

What is the side that backs up good is basically my question? Who blesses those that fight to keep chaos away? Is it an even playing field, or are the emperor and other sentient beings fighting a losing war against a higher power?

P.S. If your reply is that its a grim and dark world, thats the point, then your basically accepting that the 40k universe makes zero sense and its written only to flesh out their toys.


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## Chapter: Limp Bizkit (Aug 2, 2010)

As much as i don't want to say "it's a grim, dark world"... it kinda is, the warp is an embodiment(so to speak) of the emotions/feelings that are felt in the physical.
There is no heaven in 40k because nobody has created heaven, nobody actually FEELS heaven, anyway, it's "the grim darkness of the far future", what do you expect? 
The heaven may exist in another galaxy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

CJay said:


> In all great literature there are two sides always. Light and Dark, Fire and Water, positive and negative. There is always an opposite force. In 40k literature I have stumbled upon a problem that I couldn't quite answer.
> 
> So when I described Chaos to a friend, he asked me so that's hell basically, and I had to agree (its written several times that the warp is hell in several novels) Then who are the good guys in heaven?
> 
> ...


My theory is that over the years being while entombed on the Golden Throne, the Emperor realized that the relationship between humanity and religion can never end. Mankind always needs something to believe in and over the centuries, the Emperor realized that the way in which he tried to combat Chaos (suppressing all former religions and belief in a higher being) won't work hence why he has allowed humanity to worship him.

So his next plan? To be a warp deity himself, to be the emotion of benevolence and hope as opposed to the dark emotional representations of the four Chaos powers (roughly war, death, treachery, and hedonism). The only way to truly eradicate the threat of Chaos is to even the playing field and become their equal since there is no way he can change man's innate nature (to love instead of hate, etc.).

The warp right now as others have said isn't necessarily an evil entity. It's simply a mirror image, a representation of the most prevailing emotions of primarily humanity and other races (some formerly the most dominant ie. Eldar). 

So with that said, the Warp is simply catering to the needs of the majority of humanity.

Need a deity who rewards you for your urge to kill? Check.

Need a deity who rewards you for your fear of corruption, and disease? Check

Need a deity who rewards you for your urge to betray and plot? Check

Need a deity who rewards you for your urge to indulge in your hedonistic desires? Check.

These four chaos powers represent the most dominant emotions of the mortal races and judging by the results, they put the aforementioned emotions above all else even compassion. 

It could be argued that the Chaos powers are _slaves _to the mortal races, not the other way around because they are being sustained and were essentially created by mortals.

In the WH40k universe, the Warp is both hell and heaven, it depends on what the majority want it to be and the masses have spoken.


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## Electric-Ashes (Mar 24, 2011)

Although they are hardly a "good guys in heaven", the Necrons are the fundemental oppisite of Chaos.

Where Chaos is loud, the Necrons are quite.

Where Chaos wishes to stand out, the Necrons are content with being just like everyone else.

Where Chaos are completely selfish, the Necrons barely think of (or for) themselves.

Ofcourse having said that, having your soul eaten and being turned into a robot zombie is hardly a pleasant alternative to going to hell!


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Chaos is 'like' hell, it is not hell though, you also have to remember that WE assume that there has to be a polar oppisite of chaos, which there is, its called the material world, where order exists. 

the warp is chaos itsself, the rules of our universe, like gravity, do not apply there. Are the chaos gods any more evil then the imperium? no, the chaos gods themselves are a duality. 

The point is: in all great art you may find duality, but there are excellent masterpieces out in the world that, rather then having good versus evil, its evil versus greater evil. the point is, opposing forces can not always be defined by out standards, especially in a universe like 40k. 

god in the 40k universe IS the emperor, he may be 'just a powerful psyker' as you see it, but do people believe in him? do they worship him? does their belief in him give them power to do things they would be too weak minded to do on their own? Now, ask these questions to people about jesus, he was just a man too, yet millions worship him to this day.

The point is: Chaos is the greater of evils, where the imperium is their polar opposite, of Order, they may enforce it in a very dark way, does not make it any less the polar opposite of chaos.

Remember: the opposites in this universe we call 40k are NOT GOOD AND EVIL, they are order and chaos.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

i agree totally with the above comments upon the warp being the dark side of the mortal psyche however what i believe the OP has missed is the power of belief in the 40k 'verse.

ritual, belief fuels the chaos gods and as such the belief in the emperor would propel him into godhood, whether he was propagating a secular viewpoint or not.

basically mankind has fuelled the growth of the chaos gods and "hell" as u term it but equally they have created their own god and "heaven" in the emperor and joining him in the afterlife ready for the end times.

personally i don't like the necessity of this duality as u claim as i like to think that mankind yes is under seige by murderous gods but that their salvation lies within their inner strength and willpower......yes sounds wishy washy but jus relying upon a higher power means you relinquish all responsibiltiy to what happens instead blaming the "emperor moving in mysterious ways"

my elongated 2ct's lol


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

The way I view the warp, it is both a heaven and a hell. Obviously it is vicious and terrifying but to many it is a haven. Those who side with Chaos find the warp as being a good thing.

I think in Warhammer 40K, whatever faction you side with becomes your own personal heaven and anything else is hell because in Warhammer everything is against each other. The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy.

I agree with KhainiteAssassin on order and Chaos


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I support the zen Buddhist rejection of duality...at least in 40k.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

That is the dumbest answer ever. No bullshit.

So there is nothing supporting the good guys. You have a world where people are fighting on an un-even playing field basically. I do not see the emperor granting super natural abilities to others, I see technology giving that to the Astartes, Even the psychers draw from the warp itself. When people die, there is no heaven, they fuel the warp, there basically is one route and that is the fueling of chaos. Dont argue that Chaos isnt the "bad side" they are slaughtering innocent people and only indulging those that do evil things, that makes them evil. Until a codex comes out where Khorne blesses an Ultramarine for jackin up a crap load of Tzeentch followers, it will always be evil. 

This is just bad literature. Michael Crichton said there must always be rules in fantasy worlds to make them believable and enjoyable to the readers. Well currently chaos has no rules and is the most powerful force hands down. Because when you look at it, even the greatest space marine who dies in a last stand effort to save his brothers, just fueled chaos with his death. 

His brothers just gained nothing from his sacrifice, but chaos just got a boost of whatever size. The lore also doesn't put limits on them. WTF is stopping Matt Ward from writing "The tyranids and Necrons rose up en-masse to finally destroy all life in the galaxy! The 4 gods of Chaos, realizing this would be bad, took their attention off the game, and elevated a champion to Daemon KING!!!" Daemon King most powerful being in the universe wrecks house single handedly...." There is no constraints saying Matt Ward cant do that.

So someone level the playing field for me, because telling me its a dark world or chaos is evil and good, doesnt cut it.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

CJay said:


> So someone level the playing field for me, because telling me its a dark world or chaos is evil and good, doesnt cut it.


In the simplest terms, anything "good" in 40k fights Chaos because they recognize its horrors. Those who succumb to its (often false) promises of prosperity or freedom are rightly seen as traitors and heretics. Beyond that, "good" humans fight anything not human: aliens, mutants, and Chaos alike. You might cry and say, "Wait, that's not fair! There's nothing aliens can do about what they are. Why do those mean humies have to kill them all?" Because in 40k, xenos are hardwired to be violent and to seek the eradication of mankind, no matter how well they may mask their malevolence. In 40k, the foolish human who trusts an alien will get a xeno blade in his back sooner or later.

There are exceptions, of course, but we're talking in terms of humanity as a whole, and those exceptions are miniscule.

Now, stop thinking the playing field must be level. If you spend any amount of time dealing with 40k or Imperial fluff, you'll immediately see that *the Imperium is screwed; it is going to fall eventually, just not without a fight*. There are too many enemies seeking its destruction and no single leader charismatic enough to heal its internal wounds and organize its resources to repel its foes. Some of the advantages mankind has include technology (though it's still often inferior to xeno tech), discipline/organization/tactical ingenuity, and *faith*. Even if the Emperor is not a god in his own right, the power of faith in 40k is clearly evident. Faith drives regular people to extraordinary deeds or gives them the confidence and bravery that they'd otherwise lack. In a darker sense, faith spurs the massive ranks of the Frateris Militia (of the Ecclesiarchy) to mass suicide, tying an enemy up long enough to possibly deliver a fatal blow. It leads to victory. Whether the Emperor provides "divine intervention" to "level the playing field" is irrelevant.

If you want a simple sci-fi setting, try Star Wars. Jedi = good, Sith = bad! Even there, however, the lines are being blurred. Look at it the same way here, except the line starts at "bad" and just gets progressively worse. Also keep in mind that all of these moral terms apply to our current, modern definitions (which is why I use quotation marks), and they are drastically different in the 40k universe because yes, it's far more grimdark.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

(waiting for Child-of-the-Emperor to come done and pwn everyone with his fluffy lore...)


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh he will come its just a matter of time.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm not talking about the fluff, or any reason why the world is so dark blah blah. Im talking about 40k as a FAKE universe that we create! 

Stop talking in 40k terms, its fake. What is real is that its a story, and its clearly very flawed that doesnt garner respect from the scifi world.

From what I have inferred, is that all of those characters, every single one of our favorite characters, are all doomed to hell. Well that sucks, why bother reading it anymore.

Try describing 40k, to someone who isnt a 40k fan. Try describing chaos to them. When you tell them that it is the culmination of all emotions souls etc, and that it only spawns evil demons, they will go. "So everyone's fucked? Yeah dont care to read anymore."

Look at some of the greatest stories in the world. There is set duality. Nothing to overpowered, Problems arise, and then solutions are found, because no one likes reading a book of a bully. Ima use LOTR as my example since it is the greatest of all scifi, being called modern myth now a days. Sauron was the most powerful being basically, his rise would be the downfall of the world, yet he had a flaw. If that ring was destroyed he was screwed. Chaos, is like a Sauron that has a re-occuring ring appear. If he gets that ring just once its over, but humanity has to step in EVERY time and make sure it burns.

Don't get me wrong, I like 40k, I love the brutality and the dark sense that pervades, but knowing that my favorite characters are doomed. No glory will help out at all just a slow demise is all that awaits, well shit who cares to read that anymore? 

Because as a plot device, what is chaos? HELL! It is a plot device, merely to give excuse to create demon like characters for the table top. So once again! telling me that chaos is all this emotion bla bla bla twisted to form evil, is useless, because as a whole, its just ment to be evil demons.

Back to original argument. Is there a force that helps out the "goog guys" in the story arch? Or is everyone really fucked?

Edited to make better sense.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

CJay said:


> I'm not talking about the fluff, or any reason why the world is so dark blah blah. Im talking about 40k as a FAKE universe that we create!
> 
> Stop talking in 40k terms, its fake. What is real is that its a story, and its clearly very flawed that doesnt garner respect from the scifi world.
> 
> ...


The Emperor, at the end of time, will have garnered enough power from the souls of his slain servants to battle the Chaos Gods. Another angle says the spirits of the Emperor's loyal followers join him at his right hand, and they will battle alongside him at the end of all things. Similarly, if all the Eldar are slain, their psychic energies will give birth to the currently nascent Ynnead, God of Death, who will have the strength to slay Slaanesh and undo the greatest mistake the Eldar ever made.

Of course, both of those are theories/mythologies and have little basis in the established fluff, but if they'll make you feel better (that there's hope of the "good" guys winning in the end), well, there you go. Victory does not come without sacrifice, any way you look at it.

Though if we're strictly talking about defeating or destroying the Warp as being "good", the C'tan & Necrons are trying to be the saviors of the galaxy.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

surely if its "pointless" reading the story if good has no hope then its equally "pointless" to have it that good will win out.

ultimately we're all going to die one way or another; doesn't mean im gonna walk in front of a bus

just the same if u knew that your entire species was at grave risk of bein destroyed and there was no higher power to save you, you wouldn't jus bend over for chaos; you would fight and you would give everything for that faintest glimmer of hope which may give u a chance of survival.
That to me is the best part of the 40k universe; in fighting the worst enemy you could face (not counting nids or crons as one is following instincts and one is programmed) humanity shows it's best features; self sacrifice, determination and above all daring to hope that they can stave off the darkness

hopefully the above makes sense


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> (waiting for Child-of-the-Emperor to come done and pwn everyone with his fluffy lore...)





LukeValantine said:


> Oh he will come its just a matter of time.


:thank_you:



CJay said:


> In all great literature there are two sides always. Light and Dark, Fire and Water, positive and negative. There is always an opposite force. In 40k literature I have stumbled upon a problem that I couldn't quite answer.


That is one of the primary things I find so enticing about 40k, the whole _grey_ nature of it all. The Imperium may be the protagonists, but they are not the _"good guys"_, not like most other literature/settings seem to have anyway. 

And whilst some authors and publications do sometimes revert to the _"good guy/bad guy"_ thing a little more than I would like, most seem to stay true to the ambiguous nature of 40k.



CJay said:


> So when I described Chaos to a friend, he asked me so that's hell basically, and I had to agree (its written several times that the warp is hell in several novels) Then who are the good guys in heaven?


Well I would say that question is the wrong one to ask, because the warp isn't representative of hell. Therefore searching for the _"good guys in heaven"_ is pointless and will certainly be fruitless.

Chaos/the Warp just _is_. It represents everything that human (and xenos) philosophy has ever postulated. I think Aaron in _The First Heretic_ puts this view across well, Chaos being the universal truth of the universe and all that.



CJay said:


> P.S. If your reply is that its a grim and dark world, thats the point, then your basically accepting that the 40k universe makes zero sense and its written only to flesh out their toys.


I fail to see how that would mean the 40k universe would make zero sense...?



Malus Darkblade said:


> hence why he has allowed humanity to worship him.


Did he really have a choice in the matter?



Malus Darkblade said:


> So his next plan? To be a warp deity himself, to be the emotion of benevolence and hope as opposed to the dark emotional representations of the four Chaos powers (roughly war, death, treachery, and hedonism). The only way to truly eradicate the threat of Chaos is to even the playing field and become their equal since there is no way he can change man's innate nature (to love instead of hate, etc.).


Chaos does not represent _"dark"_ emotions. It represents the entire mortal psyche unrestrained and free. Anger, unrestrained by fear of retribution or consequence, free from morality and social expectation becomes wanton destruction and carnage (Khorne). Hope, unrestrained by reason or motive, free from reality and cause becomes wild and flippant change (Tzeentch). Love and desire, unrestrained by thought for others (or oneself), free from morality and social burdens becomes unperturbed and feral hedonism (Slaanesh). Despair, unrestrained by fear and dread, free from mortal fragility turns you into that which you initally sought to escape, with the desire to spread your new _enlightenment_ (Nurgle). 



CJay said:


> From what I have inferred, is that all of those characters, every single one of our favorite characters, are all doomed to hell. Well that sucks, why bother reading it anymore.


I think this is the main issue. You seem to see 40k as pointless because the Imperium will undoubtedly fall. I see this as a refreshing take on a setting, instead of _"Oh yay, the good guys win again"_ that happens in most other fictional settings. 

The beauty is the Imperium's faith. Despite the absolutley hopeless situation it finds itself in it still holds firm in its faith in the God-Emperor, willing to sacrifice themselves for what they perceive as the greater good for their species. The beauty of it is that they _believe_.

But 40k is a setting based on perspective, there is still enough wiggle-room for some to justify that the Imperium may just have that slim hope. And if thats what you find more appealing, to give the Imperium a significant hope (which would obviously manifest itself through the God-Emperor) of survival or victory then thats cool. As I said, 40k is based on perspective. 



CJay said:


> Look at some of the greatest stories in the world. There is set duality.


There is still duality in 40k. Its just not based around _"Good/Evil"_ or _"Black/White_. 40k is based on perspective, but there is still duality. Call it what you want, _"chaos vs order"_, "_bad vs worse"_, _"my interests vs your interests_" - But it is still there. Opposing factions vying for supremacy/survival. But because 40k is based on perspective, this duality doesn't manifest itself as concrete "_good v bad"_. I don't really see the issue.



CJay said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like 40k, I love the brutality and the dark sense that pervades, but knowing that my favorite characters are doomed. No glory will help out at all just a slow demise is all that awaits, well shit who cares to read that anymore?


It depends what your looking for. As I said above its plausable to justify there being a slim hope of survival/victory for the Imperium. Personally I think the Imperium's doom is inevitable, but your views don't have to align with mine. Or if not, then think about what I said above about faith. It is the Imperium's faith in the God-Emperor that keeps it united and willing to fight on. Each Imperial hero fights for humanity, to preserve their Imperium, it doesn't matter whether or not their sacrifice is in vain, the point is that their willing to give their lives (and sometimes souls) for that slim hope that they see as viable. And that is the beauty of it, it truly brings out the admirable characteristics of man; despite the hopelessness, despite the untold horrors of the universe, despite the dreadful enemies they face, Mankind still fights on. And this is one of the reasons the setting appeals to me so much.



demonictalkin56 said:


> surely if its "pointless" reading the story if good has no hope then its equally "pointless" to have it that good will win out.
> 
> ultimately we're all going to die one way or another; doesn't mean im gonna walk in front of a bus
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

This I like, it sums it up quite nicely. Probably said it better than I did.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

"the pointlessness" is actually a funny thing. I think that its purposely why 40k is where it is. It will never change. So those people who believe that what the Imperium represents is good could never think its pointless. Because who knows?

I personally think its the other. The 40k universe is more the struggle and strive for existance for each side. The Imperium is suppose to represent "order" generally speaking. So perhaps it is s kind of "good" point of view. But again, its only a point of view. And a view that your not really wrong in thinking of. 

Humanity and that "order" aspect may represent humanities unwillingness to change. Change to what? Well in this scenario chaos. The one thing that would save their species as a whole. But why hasn't the Imperium accepted it? Well fear of the unknown for one. But I also think its because the Imperium and those in control of it, like the status quo so far. In a Realm of Chaos, they'd be next to nothing.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Well you definitly do have a nice command over the fluff Mr, except you kind of just repeated what everyone said, just added more fluff.

The grey nature is enticing, many great stories are founded upon a "bad" good guy, but lets not BS each other, what is the Empire? Its knights in a future setting, that is what their arch type is and that is how the general public will define them as, just like people who have never seen 40k will look at an Eldar and go "Space Elves?" 

Go ahead and come up with all the fluffy reasons why Chaos isnt hell, but when you sift through the fluff, its just hell. If the writers of 40k, fleshed out the other part of chaos, the portion that is getting twisted, then it would be plausible. You'd be able to say it was like the afterlife in Greek mythology. But lets not kid ourselves. Chaos is merely their way of justifying space demons in the tabletop. 

However its not just space demons people have to combat, there are followers of these space demons. These space satanists are granted mutations and powers far above a normal guy, and if one of them were to actually kill the satanist or one of the demons, guess what, they aren't dead. Oh shit satanists can be revived and demons are never killed. 

Thats not gritty and dark, thats just one sided. Gritty and dark is living in a harsh world, and battling to survive somehow, there IS no survival here. You either live and see a demon face to face, or die and end up face to face with a demon, end of story. 

Let me put it EVEN SIMPLER. Kid story time. This is 40k currently. In a time long long from now. There is darkness, only darkness, nothing but darkness!!! Everyone is evil and the good guys will always lose even in victory!!!! (emo bitch, but its true.)

Im going to use a 10x more popular scifi book now, hope you can guess.

In this world, alien bugs are posed to strike the nation. The fate of human kind rests upon the shoulders of one boy! He trains every day to save the human race. Finally he graduates with the hardest battle he has ever fought, only to find out, it was all real! He had been leading troops to war killing millions. This boy didnt just play a complicated video game. He had killed an entire species, and lost thousands of human lives in the process. His innocence forever lost. 

Enders Game is far darker than anything 40k could ever create, but I ask again. What is the polar opposite, what brings about equality to the field. Because right now, at its bear bones. The story looks very incomplete and flawed.


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## Electric-Ashes (Mar 24, 2011)

Let me put this in really simple terms. As I understand it the *BIG GOOD *won't even be born until the very last second at the moment when the *BIG BAD* is at the verge of victory.

So the opposition of Chaos, if I understand the term correctly, is Deus Ex Machina.

Actually thinking about it, the bad guys are just as screwed as the good guys. If Chaos ever took over the universe there would be nothing left to sustain it and it would just self destruct.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

CJay said:


> The grey nature is enticing, many great stories are founded upon a "bad" good guy, but lets not BS each other, what is the Empire? Its knights in a future setting, that is what their arch type is and that is how the general public will define them as, just like people who have never seen 40k will look at an Eldar and go "Space Elves?"


Right... so?



CJay said:


> However its not just space demons people have to combat, there are followers of these space demons. These space satanists are granted mutations and powers far above a normal guy, and if one of them were to actually kill the satanist or one of the demons, guess what, they aren't dead. Oh shit satanists can be revived and demons are never killed.
> 
> Thats not gritty and dark, thats just one sided. Gritty and dark is living in a harsh world, and battling to survive somehow, there IS no survival here. You either live and see a demon face to face, or die and end up face to face with a demon, end of story.
> 
> Let me put it EVEN SIMPLER. Kid story time. This is 40k currently. In a time long long from now. There is darkness, only darkness, nothing but darkness!!! Everyone is evil and the good guys will always lose even in victory!!!! (emo bitch, but its true.)


As I said, 40k is based on perspective. The Imperium (and some fans of 40k) see there being a hope (based around the Emperor) that the Imperium will survive and will triumph over Chaos. There is enough legitimate lore to justify this theory, and if you personally adhere to such a line then I guess 40k would fit more into what you are looking for in this thread. The protagonists - regardless of how much against the odds - could still triumph.

Personally I tend to sway much more towards "The Imperium is doomed and Chaos will reign" line, of which there is plenty of established lore to justify such. But the great thing about 40k is perspective, I really can't say it enough. The Imperium is not necessarily doomed (despite my own personal beliefs), its all down to who you end up rooting for and how much stock you personally put in certain lore.

40k is different things to different people. I enjoy it because I personally view it as the Imperium being a doomed protagonist without any hope of survival or retribution, yet they still fight on - they still have faith. Yet others view it as the Imperium still having hope of survival and victory (regardless of how slim), and that is a perfectly legitimate view. If you personally want to view it like the latter then thats great, you may get more out of it if you do so. Beyond that I really don't get the issue you have with 40k.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Cjay, you are obvously just ignoring anything anyone is saying, and ranting on how chaos is hell and there is no heaven and the world is doomed.

your one of those overly Zealous religious people, arent you. HUMAN NATURE is not black and white, we as a race have assigned values of good and evil towards actions and expect everyone to abide by our personal sense of morality, what is evil to you, might be good to me. almost every war we have is because of this. Look at the 40k universe, it is not a piece of literature written by one person to have the protagonists be "good guys" all high and mighty, who can never be evil, and the "bad guys" who threaten everything that the "good guys" believe in. 

The fact is, that the 40k universe is one of the more immersive worlds I have enjoyed in a long time, there is many different view points that can be taken, But the point is: 40k is no different from a post apocalyptic Novel, where people do what they can to survive. I do not need to repeat CotE's long post, but if you still can not see what he was saying and are going to stick to your views, thats your choice, but you will not be getting much love from our community if you are going to try and push your point of view upon us until we remove you or agree with you.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> The Emperor, at the end of time, will have garnered enough power from the souls of his slain servants to battle the Chaos Gods. Another angle says the spirits of the Emperor's loyal followers join him at his right hand, and they will battle alongside him at the end of all things. Similarly, if all the Eldar are slain, their psychic energies will give birth to the currently nascent Ynnead, God of Death, who will have the strength to slay Slaanesh and undo the greatest mistake the Eldar ever made.
> 
> Of course, both of those are theories/mythologies and have little basis in the established fluff, but if they'll make you feel better (that there's hope of the "good" guys winning in the end), well, there you go. Victory does not come without sacrifice, any way you look at it.
> 
> Though if we're strictly talking about defeating or destroying the Warp as being "good", the C'tan & Necrons are trying to be the saviors of the galaxy.



If that is the case why not just have the Eldar commit mass-suicide? It seems like the only thing the Eldar are concerned with is not dying but I can assume that not all of them are aware of it then. Maybe thats why they keep on fighting for survival? 

It seems like there are a lot of Ressurection theories in WH40K (emperor and children theories, Ynnead, necrons (lol) and Chaos have lots of phoenix downs!

And nice CotE, you came to the rescue! (only humanity isn't saved, you just pointed out how fucked we are)


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

1stly why is it important that humanity is saved in the end??!! if anything the tau are the "good" guys and every bugger else is a different shade of psychotic loony?

2ndly, i have seen so many reasonable assessments of the original question on this board and so far none of them have been taken slightly into account (and yes i am including mine in there mainly because thats my opinion)

3rdly, this thread is starting to feel like the imperium's fight against chaos.....long winded and ultimately doomed

4thly that rant is now out of my system, please enjoy your weekends


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Lol yes! I got someone to break down and attack me personally. Don't feel bad, I had this same argument hit me, and I argued it just like you guys. The problem is, when looked at from an outsiders view, this is what a non 40k person sees. An incomplete story thats too dark to get into.

I personally will continue to read, because I like the settings, and I can't wait for the progression in the story. All enjoy your week end, and stop bein cry babies! Just enjoy yourself.

edited for a side note: btw many points were skipped over because this was an ambiguous discussion. The fluff has very little to do with the core foundation of the story. So if you haven't taken a college Lit class, or even know what the word ambiguous means, you shouldn't have said anything in this discussion.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

if you want to talk about the core of 40k, then leave it to this simple reasoning: 

WARHAMMER IS NOT LITERATURE, IT IS A GAME

as such, it has a far more demanding situation, They could not rely on a single point of view, especially since you are not playing from said single point of view. Good and evil, are POINTS OF VIEW, What you believe in is good, and what your opponents believe in is evil, its that simple. 

I wont bother posting again since you obviously overlook key points people show you, more then likely have way too narrow of a mind to understand truth either.

GOOD literature uses Duality as its core, in order to keep to the norm. GREAT literature, the ones that truly shine, have duality, but not as their core, they have a true flow of realism that entraps you, that brings their world to life, and if there is one truth in this world of ours now, let alone any fiction we write, is that a persons point of view means everything. if you were to write literature about the war in iraq, as an example, would the americans be the good guys and Iraq be the big bad people? that would not be truth, since the americans invaded iraq for oil, ok well the americans invaded iraq to find 'WMDs' but stayed for the oil, whos to say that the americans are the good guys? whos to say what is good and what is evil in this world, or in any fictional world. 

YOU have assigned the value of 'hell' upon the warp, YOU have decided there is no heaven in 40k since you can not find it. but the moment you stop looking at the warp as hell, since its NOT hell, since its NOT the embodiment of everything that is evil, just another part of the universe, all of a sudden, the 40k universe makes sense even in the ideals of duality.

YOU have assigned the values of good and evil as a necessity, the game has not, does that make it bad literature? by your ideals it does, by others it does not.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Your first point was the strongest, the literature is to support a game.

I do not merely want to point out the fact that I do not argue, bull headishly, it makes sense to you and me because we enjoy this. To someone else this makes no sense. 

PS if you still doubt me about people thinking it makes no sense, then how come 40k hasn't won any real acclaim in all its years of being out? No black library writer every garnishing any awards like the nebula or the hugo? Proofs in the pudding.

I merely brought this up because I had this argument thrown at me too. As I was told in other forums. Its not hardcore science, there are plot holes everywhere, just enjoy, and I do.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

CJay said:


> Your first point was the strongest, the literature is to support a game.
> 
> I do not merely want to point out the fact that I do not argue, bull headishly, it makes sense to you and me because we enjoy this. To someone else this makes no sense.
> 
> ...


Even though it supports a game I find it way more enjoyable than teh game itself. I actually love reading the BL books over you know other books 

But no BL authors are not going to win awards. Why? BEcause Warhammer 40K is just not THAT popular and is often laughed upon.

Its sort of like you watching Red vs Blue on Youtube. You might think wow this is hilarious! and you notice that over one million people saw this video but not everyone is into Halo or maybe their comedy. Its just not in the "mainstream" of SciFi I guess you could say.

But I dont think it matters that they win awards because it all comes down to how it appeals to you and the fans. Thats what makes Warhammer 40K, Warhammer 40k.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> PS if you still doubt me about people thinking it makes no sense, then how come 40k hasn't won any real acclaim in all its years of being out? No black library writer every garnishing any awards like the nebula or the hugo? Proofs in the pudding.


I've read the tripe that's shortlisted for some of these. Then again, it's generally looked down as fan fiction rather than the whole "I created a universe, you copied yours". SciFi/Fantasy novels which do win acclaim in the wider literary world however; David Gemmell, Tolkien, Trudi Canavan etc are deservedly so, but some troglodytic self proclaimed sci-fi critics and master piece authors is hardly a worthy case for promoting an award; a jury of peers is hardly a trustworthy judge. On the other hand, Graham McNeil won the David Gemmell award, I believe. 

This isn't sour grapes, by the way - it's stating facts, and I enjoy movies/books/films on my own, and rarely let critics phase me.



> I merely brought this up because I had this argument thrown at me too. As I was told in other forums. Its not hardcore science, there are plot holes everywhere, just enjoy, and I do.


Indeed. I often fall into the movie trap of "how much ammunition in that mag?", who gives a fruitcake? The plot holes are humerous to criticize, and in notable examples, such as Lee Lightner, Ben Counter, and CS Goto novels, as much as I enjoy ripping the fuck out of how shit the story and plot holes are, I often enjoy reading as much about them in the same way I enjoy mindless drivel like "Breakfast at Tiffany's" and "Terminator".



CJay said:


> Lol yes! I got someone to break down and attack me personally. Don't feel bad, I had this same argument hit me, and I argued it just like you guys. The problem is, when looked at from an outsiders view, this is what a non 40k person sees. An incomplete story thats too dark to get into.


On the otherhand, they also see it populated with a background of neckbeard toting greasy faced nerds, and pompous pricks who post potentially inflammatory comments to elicit responses and then delight in it. Maybe Joe Public doesn't want to be tarnished with that reputation? Not to mention, the childish cover art hardly inspires the comfort a good Clive Barker, Tom Clancy, or James Pattinson for a sunbed novel, when you've got an outlandishly attired creature shooting with oversized machine pistol, defying apparent laws of physics. With the "advent" of the by now popular and fashionable e-reader or tablet, that is less of an issue, but it's not good to turn around and start talking about GM Test Tube Babies committing xenophobic genocide in the name of an extremist religious cult to your lounger neighbour when he hopes to strike up friendly conversation to compare notes between his John Grisham and your expected Patricia Cornwell.



> I personally will continue to read, because I like the settings, and I can't wait for the progression in the story. All enjoy your week end, and stop bein cry babies! Just enjoy yourself.


You needed to be asked that question yourself to realise that people read the books they paid for about a comfortable easily recognisable background with a simplistic feel good, moral high ground story should read them for their own enjoyment? I don't really understand in what exactly you were trying to achieve by introducing the childish mind numbingly disinteresting concept of duality that's as old and as tired as Tolkiens over simplistic black and white views of Turkey and Islam in general, and Western Christian denominational Europe's answer to that.



> edited for a side note: btw many points were skipped over because this was an ambiguous discussion. The fluff has very little to do with the core foundation of the story. So if you haven't taken a college Lit class, or even know what the word ambiguous means, you shouldn't have said anything in this discussion.


Fluff is the means which draws people further into the hobby. We don't need elitist pricks precluding the thoughts of someone who lacks the jaded cynical thoughts of many people's view on GW's universe's - including your's truly's. In future, refrain from such bullish, childing comments. Because fuck me, half they people you're intending to stop from commenting won't stop because they saw that comment, they'll see you as an arrogant arse who's not worth the time it takes to formulate their response; after reading the initial posts earlier the morning, I fell into the same category, and only checking back now did I see that you were doing little more than trolling in essence. To make the point about duality, as I said is a highly immature way of looking at it. The Imperium is a corrupt society, slaved to bureaucratic inertia and religious fanaticism, spearheaded, from both a marketing and militarily point of view by xenophobic, traditionalist, superstitious, non evolutionist armed force, citing genocide as being the only way to counter the "threat" of an unknown entity which doesn't meet an exacting standard.

Chaos, meanwhile, is just the explosion and grand exaggeration of the whole Olympus saga, Pandora's box, Cain and Abel, and, ultimately, the Serpent of Eden plotlines. The greed and desire for more; more power, more dominion, eternal life, more strength, more, more, more. Every want and whim is yours in Chaos - however, it's teaching the moral lesson that certain things are wrong, and dropping immediately to your hearts desire in the fit of emotion is inherently wrong.

Do you expect such a morale story going out as providing a thought process which allows easily swayed teenagers which inevitably make up the majority of the hobby, to say that just doing something that you want should be a responsible action without concideration of the consequences? In this instance, physical deformity (although this is slightly unfair as it again promotes the ideal that physical perfection is the ideal to aim for - I'm not talking making yourself Brad Pitt, but rather the shunning of an Elephant Man character), lack of lucidity and other notionally "unpleasant" idea's form the basis of said consequence of just merely wanting to kill for pleasure, take drugs, listen to punk, or even, the complete strive for perfection so that all others are treated as lesser beings.

It's a complex background itself that goes far deeper than just the plot; stories which influence people must have positive reassurances. Authors for the Black Library no longer need to concern themselves when generating that image; the leg work has already been done for the most part.

As such; the Imperium is put across as a necessary evil, and while Chaos takes the role of "evil", or "hell" with it's description of nightmares and the like, represents that certain things have no place in society as a whole.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

This is admission that I did not read this long rant by everyone.

Suffice to say, I do have an opinion -- there doesn't need to be a 'good'-side per say. In fact that is the beauty of the Warhammer 40k Universe. "Good" as you might believe it is the Emperor, and he does not bless anyone, yet millions die in his name every year.

The genius behind the franchise is that it tells of Humanity, without a 'good' god, fighting a war that it will inevitably loose -- yet it has endured for 10,000 years. It will always endure, until the end of time. The Chaos Gods will be denied their prize.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

And all of a sudden, the place turns into a shitstorm... Such is the power of the Warp.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

40k was forged in the 80s, when a strong nihilistic streak ran through a lot of fiction and kickstarted the entire cyberpunk thing as well.

This is why 40k is how it is.

The duality is that Chaos is a reflection, a dark reflection of the material universe, which is itself dark, lit only by the blacklights of despair and nihilism. You can't win, you can't break even, you might as well give up - but humanity is not like that. 

They do not just give up. They stand in open defiance, regardless of whether or not they can triumph. They do not go quietly into the night. They're delightful little fleshbags that way.


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## shmabadu (Oct 2, 2009)

Doesn't duality exist in the 40k-verse? On the one hand you have Chaos, good old anything goes Chaos. I always saw Chaos as a perversion of the ideas of individualism. Let's face it, one doesn't wake up one morning and decide to murder his family for the Blood God. It starts with a thought, "Hey, I'm an individual, and maybe my life doesn't exist to serve the Emperor". Sounds good so far, a lot people could get behind that, but by opening one's self up to Chaos it begins to creep into your mind. It twists the ideas which seemed pure and good and turned them into something twisted and evil. It's funny one of the best examples of this was in the game "Dawn of War: Dark Crusade", I know a lot of people balk at the idea of fluff in the DoW games but this was pretty good. It was the writings of a man who had fallen to Chaos. He talked about how he could see things clearly for the first time. How exhilarating it felt, how he got a thrill when he called the Emperor a "corpse on a throne", he was free for the first time in his life. 

To understand the pull of Chaos you have to look at it's opposite, the Imperium of Man. What is the mission of the Imperium? It is to save humanity, from outside horrors and itself. What helps it accomplish it's mission a vast and bloated bureaucracy that stifles productivity and an Ecclesiarchy that's goal is to deny the lusts that pervade the human soul. As Chaos is the twisting and perversion of freedom the Imperium is the twisting and perversion of order. The Imperium is a giant police state where a it's economy is run from top to bottom and inquisitors and priest go around stamping out heresy i.e. free thought. It accomplishes this mission through force, as Chaos seduces it's victims, the Imperium rapes them. As Chaos says to it's adherents to embrace there emotions and give in to their desires the Imperium orders it's subjects to deny their own thoughts. No world denies the suzerainty of the Imperium, if a new world is found it is conquered. Chaos offers freedom form the monotonous and tedium that fills the lives of it's citizens. And what of aliens? Chaos cares not who comes to them be they alien or human. Not the Imperium it is pure, it will burn out and cleanse those that aren't. 

Why does the Imperium do what it does, to save man, a good idea that people can get behind but it's been twisted and perverted by human nature. Who doesn't crave order, stability, structure. In a world filled with alien horrors, the Imperium answers a call for order in the universe. The same way Chaos answers a call to be free. Yet the Imperium takes these blessings and turns them into a boot on it's citizens neck. 

As Chaos started as simple emotions, things that define our humanity and yet are turned on us. The Imperium is a creation of mankind and now seems to be it's greatest nemesis...maybe. This is why Space Marines are the epitome of the Imperium. They exist solely to serve, unquestioned obedience, with no personal life, no real emotions only service until death. They aren't even human, they have sacrificed their humanity to save mankind. The same way the Imperium has slowly stripped humanity of that which makes it human, all to defend humankind.

Notice of course how both paths lead to end that seems to be the soul death of it's adherents. While the Imperium and Chaos exist at polar opposites, they also seem to contain elements of each other. Part of any good literature is the seeming similarity of it's enemies. While not literature the Yin-Yang symbol epitomizes this with each containing an element of the other.

You also speak of finality, yet everyday hundreds of billions are born in an unending stream of mankind that will go on indefinitely. Look at the date it's over 40,000 years in the future. The pyramids didn't exist 4,000 years ago. the fact that the Imperium itself is more than twice as old as any modern day civilization shows the unending nature of the 40k-verse. It's length of time being barely comprehensible. So, will these new teeming masses serve the Empire, build it's cities, work in it's factories, follow it's Emperor, fight in it's wars or will they reject the demands of there superiors and obey there own emotions and begin their fall to Chaos and the worship of it's gods. This battle between the twisted form of Order and the perversion of Freedom over the souls of mankind is what is the central premise of the 40k universe.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Everyone seems to be agreeing that the 40k universe is a dark place with no hopes etc etc but i can think of several times in the fluff that unexplained holy events have saved the followers of the imperium in the face of unbreakable evil. 


*Spoiler warning*



Straight silver by Dan Abnett deals with visitations from a dead sister of the martyred rose(IIRC) who visits Gaunt to guide him on the correct path.


Sabbat Martyr has a reincarnated saint who shines with holy power and manages to turn a majoy chaos victory into defeat through dint of pure charisma and religious understanding despite being a simple scholar from a farming world origionally. 

At the beguining of the Horus Heresy series Keeler becomes touched by the divine when she uses her aqulla to banish a deamon who is attacking the ship. She's not combat trained so there is no chance she fought the demon any other way. 

There are various hints in other books about a power of good lurking behind the scenes but GW keep it deliberately behind the scenes. In game terms this is reflected in some respects with the good armies being able to use holy relics that actually affect the battle and faith point for sisters of battle that allow their religion to effect their battle prowess.

Whilst there is no outright "heaven" mentioned aside from the old chestnut of fighting at the emperors side at the end of time the fact that these things occur strongly suggest that there is an a Yin to the Yang of chaos. We don't see it very often because it takes away from the air of tension and hopelessness that surrounds the setting. When we do see evidence of it it is in story altering ways. A brief but bright spark of flame in an otherwise pitch black setting. 

You could argue that these are no proof of an afterlife other then the warp in the 40k universe but then you would need to explain how and where these phenomenon came from. If the souls of the righteous simply diminish after death then how can a battle sister's ghost come back to haunt a world that she never lived on more than 6000 years after her death?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

While not 40K, Fantasy has a similar point.

If Chaos was the all emcompassing evil that it's presented in Fantasy as, (as opposed to the grey area in 40K), then why is it's direct opposition considered an equal evil?

Nagash found out from the Druchii that after death, the soul would become the playthings of daemons regardless of whether that soul was "pledged" was to the Gods of their own religion. As such, he set about saving not just his own soul, but by the creation of the Vampire, into saving the entire human race. Now, the Vampires as currently presented are fearome horrific creatures, but the original ones were "just" extremely powerful nobles of Nehekhara. However, the jealousy, and fear of the rivals caused Nagash's "Elixir of Life" secret to be lost, so that now, each new vampire must be formed by the Blood Kiss, rather than formed a new, each Kiss resulting in a weaker one than the last. This means that they must enslave the World in death, and resurrect them. Fairly horrific a thought, but the fear and stupidity of the Nehkharan' rivals condemned the human race to be permanently fighting chaos, for without Souls, there are no Chaos Gods.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ive been reading the recent BL Nagash books (Only the Vampire Stories in Fantasy intrest me in the slightest, exept for the Nagash Books now) and it seems to be Nagash just didnt want worship his gods and upsurp their power by discovering Immortality. The Vamires were created as a side result of improper research of Nagashes studies by Nobles who wanted the same goodness. It really came down to being a freak accident.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

40k does have duality, it's just duality from the point of view of whichever army you happen to be playing at the time and that's probably why i have such trouble picking an army.

DE are shown as raiding "cattle races" for survival and status within their society but from the point of view of those being killed they are horrible uncaring monsters. They don't care but their fluff justifies this to the player.

CSM (a significant proportion of them) are bent on revenge against an imperium that they believe has wronged them and are perhaps using chaos as a means to an end (the destruction of the imperium). Whereas the Imperium sees this as a betrayal as well and siding with chaos unforgivable.

The Imperium is the last hope for humanity yet they commit genocide on their own people daily and often for trivial reasons - eg 1st war of armageddon where many people fought heroically against chaos only to be betrayed by their rulers.

The way 40k is layed out is that there are many different dualities so that each player can convince themselves that their army is justified in fighting (if they need that) whilst their opponent can do the same. No one has to be the bad guys in this situation and that's a good thing in my eyes.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, yes, but it was essentially a paraphrase . Good to know that more people are reading the Nagash series.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

grimzag that's a v good point re miracles in the fluff.

coupla diff ways of lookin at it

most cynical one i can think of is tzeentch having a good laugh at screwing with people.

my preferred one however borrows from pratchett's pov on belief (others prob have done it b4 but its the best example i can think of)
essentially if there is belief in an idea that idea will be given power proportionate to the belief given; due to the growing imperial cult at the time of the keeler incident it is my prefferred idea that keeler was indeed saved by the god-emperor due to the belief that she had combined with the growing cults belief. same with the other miracles elsewhere in the flluff


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