# GW owns the right to YOUR models.



## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I found this out yesterday. I was uploading images of models on a certain website and I found out that, even if a model was built by a fan who has no affiliation with the GW company, GW claims all copyrights for any images of that model.

Now, this upsets me. If *I* bought and paid for the model and supplies to build and paint it, *I* put the effort and time into finishing said model and never received any monetary compensation for either labor or finished product, where do they get the right to say they own said model or images thereof? As far as I'm concerned they don't own my work until they give me a sallary. Technically, they could take any image of a fan built model and use it to advertise their product without permission and would not be required to compensate that fan for the use of their model's photo.

If I was using that model to advertise their products without their permission and illegally make a profit then I could understand, but saying you own somebody else's hard work and requiring a GW copyright just to post a picture of it somewhere on the internet seems a little rediculous. And for them to say they own it and have the ability to use it for their own ends without the author's permission seems wrong. It's like they can do to us with impunity, what they are terrified of us doing to them. This seems like hipocrisy of the highest caliber.

I am aware of how stringent GW is about their IP and I understand why. It makes sense but it has to have a limit.


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## The_Inquisitor (Jul 19, 2008)

I can see how you'd be slightly ticked off discovering that your models aren't really YOUR models at all. I doubt anything will ever come of this loophole however, GW are probably just trying to keep up a water tight copyright, so that no one wanting to take advantage can.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Actually, I heard that GW's copyright policy concerning fan photos might not be legal in continental Europe. Anybody know about that? I don't live there so I have no idea if that's true or not.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

they can try and own my models, but all they'll get is a laugh in the face off me and anyone else they try and claim a case against


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

The law works exactly the same for your fine collection of video games. It's a similar principle. Legally, you don't 'own' the video game, you just bought a license from the company to use it. Officially, it's still theirs, but it doesn't mean they can walk in your home and take it, but they CAN stop you from using it if you break some law. Now, this is where it gets tricky. For a model, THEY own the copyright to the design and story material, the chapter colours, everything. Which means you are being given a 'licence' to USE the colours, but you cannot OWN them. So, if you painted a new Space Marine in Ultramarines colours, it's not your scheme, it's not your model, and it's not your idea, you simply had a right to USE the colours and models.

However, the even more complicated part. If you make a brand new chapter design, story, etc, that is yours. You have an 'artistic licence' to the paint scheme. A sort-of copyright under the Creative licence. GW cannot come to your house, say the design is theres and sell it, as it's yours. Only YOU can give permission to let others use the paint scheme, but you don't OWN the colours.

Confused yet? That's why law students are always tired.

Take it this way. A painter using Company A's paints, on Company B's paper. They 'let' you use them, but you never own either. You create a masterpiece of artwork of a dragon. The drawing of the dragon is yours, neither Company A or B have the right to use it, they simply gave you the right to use the materials. Company B can 'request' or file a cease and desist order to stop you using Company B's paper in your artwork, but that's never, ever happened. Even if it did, no judge would accept it.

Ultimatly. If GW steals your design, you can sue, but GW will never say 'Actually.. you can't use that paint' although technically they can, it makes no buisness sense.

Phew.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

No no no, these are _my_ models. They'll have a hard time before they part me from them.


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

No they're not. They own the copyright. If you 'owned' them, that would mean you owned the design too, which also means you produce your own army for nothing.

Legally, you own NOTHING. Not even the shirt on your back.

But I wouldn't worry, they won't take them off you : P


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Why would games workshop want to take your models?

Seriously, what is the point of this thread? It's comical. :laugh:


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Because somebody needed a lecture on the law, a perfectly valid thread k: Besides, it's not about models, it's about artistic licence.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Not to argue with you, I'm just confused, so let me get this straight. Even though I paid for model X, paid for the modelling supplies to finish it, and put all the effort into the modelling process, not to mention have actual physical posession of the model, it still isn't *legally* mine? Does that mean that if they wanted, GW could come to your house and take your model collection and it wouldnt be considered theft, prosecutable under the law, because they own the copyright?

And Jez, the point of this thread is not whether GW is coming to take our models away but the legality and fairness of their copyright practices. I just can't believe that *they* technically own something that *I *bought, built and have posession of. I figure that if I paid for something, it's mine.

I feel that I should say, this is not about the right to reproduce the models. Buying a model kit DOES NOT give you the right to reproduce it for your own profit, that is stealing and I agree with GW in that respect.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

My point is that Games Workshop don't own my models. Simple as that, really.


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> Not to argue with you, I'm just confused, so let me get this straight. Even though I paid for model X, paid for the modelling supplies to finish it, and put all the effort into the modelling process, not to mention have actual physical posession of the model, it still isn't *legally* mine? Does that mean that if they wanted, GW could come to your house and take your model collection and it wouldnt be considered theft, prosecutable under the law, because they own the copyright?


No they can't. That's called stealing. Law is a picky customer. All you need to know is that they own the design to the models, so they're legally theirs. But you exchanged money to 'use' the models, so they can't simply take them back, that would be corporate theft. The same if they put a chapter design you made on their website without your permission. It's illegal.



KellysGrenadier said:


> My point is that Games Workshop don't own my models. Simple as that, really.


Sorry : / But they do, they're just yours to use. They can't take them off you. Has TKMaxx taken the shoes off your feet?



I think I scared people


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Anyone ever read the Terms and Conditions to their latest PC game? If they let you 'own' the game, that means people can legally take, copy and reuse anything on the disk. They wouldn't even be allowed to ban you from the game. That's why perment bannings from games are legal, as you only have a licence to use that game, if you own the game, banning you would be theft.






Yeah, definatly scared people.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> And Jez, the point of this thread is not whether GW is coming to take our models away but the legality and fairness of their copyright practices.


Its just funny that people are actually talking about GW coming to their house stealing their models and getting hit up over it.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Yeah, it is a funny turn of the thread but I originally started this thread about Photo's of models and GW's rights to use those fan photo's as they see fit without any compensation for the modeller/fan who bought and built the model, and the fairness of those rights.

Also it's about the confusion of how they can *own* something I bought and paid for. It just confuses me. I realize that GW isn't going to come knocking on my door, "Uh, Mr. LeeHarvey, we have recieved reports that you've been posting images of our your models on the internet. We're here to collect said models."


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## gwmaniac (Sep 1, 2008)

give me my models or give me death!


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

It's pretty simple. Endangered has made it crystal clear. 

You don't own the model, in a sense you didn't BUY the model, you bought the license to use the model (while also receiving the model )

Endangered is awesome in my book!


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

This is to do with painting the models though right? In GW IP colour schemes. Not just buying them?


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

its like permantly borrowing a model. games workshop cacn't take the model off you unless you brake one or more of their laws.

if they did come over to peoples houses taking their models they would have to kill me fist. they can try and die trying hahaha


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

BloodANgels89 said:


> Endangered is awesome in my book!


Thanks dude! k:



Jezlad said:


> This is to do with painting the models though right? In GW IP colour schemes. Not just buying them?


Newp. Both.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

They mean that the image of it, for example, as a Space Marine, isn't legally yours, since Space Marines aren't your intellectual property. The physical model is yours, however.


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## Shogun_Nate (Aug 2, 2008)

Eh..what's even better is you come up with your own scheme and background, enter it into a DIY chapter contest and in the fine print GW has the rights to all your work as well :biggrin:. Something I noticed some years ago when I entered one of their DIY contests. My marines are no longer my marines because when I entered the contest GW gained the rights to them heh heh heh. Of course this still hasn't led to any samurai marine upgrade sprues...:no:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Here's the thing: GW does not own your models. They cannot take your models away.

However, GW owns their own designs. They designed your model. It's their image, their intellectual property. even a custom model, if it uses GW parts or copies GW's trademark style, that's still their property...the image, not the model.

This has absolutely no practical impact on your life. They will not/cannot take away your models, they won;t stop you from taking pics of your freshly painted minis and posting them on the internet.

The only thing this really makes a difference for is if you plan on making money with pictures of your models. You can sell your models, but not the pictures.

Before you freak out or call nonsense, think about this:

If I made a T-shirt that featured the Warhammer 40k logo on it and sold it online, would any of you be shocked our outraged that GW would step in and stop me selling it? What about if I made a "horus confronts the emperor" t-shirt using the famous piece of GW artwork and tried to sell it? Again, would you be shocked and outraged if GW stopped me stealing their art and selling it?

No, of course not.

How about your books? Same deal. You own the book, but you have no right to distribute the information contained within without GW's permission. If you started selling bootlegged photocopies of the latest codex, you would get sued silly, and rightly so.

Well, the same thing applies to pictures of their models. They sculpted them, designed them, copyrighted and trademarked them...they are GW's art as much as any painting or logo is. You cannot sell merchandise bearing protected artwork.

You own your own models. They are physically your property.
However, they are not your INTELLECTUAL property. You did not invent, design or sculpt them. (And if you did sculpt them, you still are using their images as your basis)

As for painting them...if you cracked open MS Paint and colored in a bit of B&W artwork scaned from one of your books, that doesn't make it yours. It;s their artwork, you just altered it.

If you invent a custom chapter symbol, then that is yours. You can sell T-shirts featuring the "Nate's Nightmare Knights" chapter logo. But you cannot sell a T-shirt of a Nightmare Knights space marine, because the space marine image belongs to GW.

All this is is to protect GW from piracy and forgery. 
So let's cut the hysteria, please.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

I think in practice this ends up working a lot like car designs.
For people interested in seeing how a similar situation worked out, look up Ford and the Black Mustang Club. There's a write up available at http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/25/black-mustang-club-c.html but it was an incident that blew up and got worked out in the end.

The the car companies and the model companies both have the same rights and concerns. Things like composition and arrangement are important in copyright law, in addition to things like who owns the right to a likeness.


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## Shogun_Nate (Aug 2, 2008)

Galahad said:


> If you invent a custom chapter symbol, then that is yours. You can sell T-shirts featuring the *"Nate's Nightmare Knights" *chapter logo. But you cannot sell a T-shirt of a Nightmare Knights space marine, because the space marine image belongs to GW.


Nate's Nightmare Knights..I like the sound of that. When I get around to making my chaos marines I just might use that..lol.

And in my case, I couldn't make a shirt featuring my chapter logo because as I said, GW got the rights to my background and everything else that went along with it. Am I hysterical? No..far from it heh heh heh. Frankly I could care less as I know full well GW cannot take away property that I purchased because it's mine. Irregardless of the deep thoughts and law-speak, I know that in fact they are mine, design/intellectual properties be damned :wink:. I think you read the intention of my post wrong :biggrin:. It was tongue in cheek and I wasn't being serious lol.

Good luck and good gaming,

Nate


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Does it really actually matter? It's not like they're going to turn up at your door one day and go "Yoink!", have all your models away in a bag and bugger off.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

endangeredhuman has the actual laws nailed imo. 

the cd/pc game analogy is the best way to describe it - when you buy the cd, you buy the licence to listen to the cd, which is all fine and dandy. when you illegally download, which means you have broken the laws, you get a can of whoopass let loose.

however, it really bears little to no practical impact on your day to day hobby related business.


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Ahh, thanks Galahad, Intellectual property rights, that's the word I forgot..

And very true, CCCP, nobody has anything to hissy fit about.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

EndangeredHuman said:


> Ahh, thanks Galahad, Intellectual property rights, that's the word I forgot..
> 
> And very true, CCCP, nobody has anything to hissy fit about.


Intellectual property vs physical property is a bit of a trip to get used to, but it boils down pretty simply.

The models and books are your physical property, the ideas and images they contain and represent are GW's intellectual property.

And yeah, according to the copyright and licensing notices on GW's site, just about anything you do with their setting is considered a derivative work and is, technically, theirs. If they want to use pics of your minis they can. However, unless they just happen to be covering a tourney you're playing in, or you win a Golden Daemon or something, it's unlikely in the extreme that they ever will.

This is hardly unique to GW. Every company does it. This is why we have licensing agreements and such.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

One side question to come from this discussion, what about fan shirts you make for yourself, just to wear, no intention to sell. Would they get uppity about this kind of thing, or once again would it slide as you aren't making a profit from it.

I haven't done any yet, but its been a long term goal to make up a load of fan shirts using GW creations with silly slogans at some point. For example a Goblin Fanatic in full spin , with 'Watch out for that Tree!" underneath.


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## The_Inquisitor (Jul 19, 2008)

rep to endangeredhuman. very nice explanation


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Druchii in Space said:


> One side question to come from this discussion, what about fan shirts you make for yourself, just to wear, no intention to sell. Would they get uppity about this kind of thing, or once again would it slide as you aren't making a profit from it.
> 
> I haven't done any yet, but its been a long term goal to make up a load of fan shirts using GW creations with silly slogans at some point. For example a Goblin Fanatic in full spin , with 'Watch out for that Tree!" underneath.


That's a very good question. On one hand it's not permitted, on anouther it is. It's an intellectual property vs artistic lisence issue. But, there have been alot of court cases on this matter, and, basically, aslong as you don't intend to sell it, the law is on your side. So, go ahead! But, I'd ask your local GW manager how he feels before coming in to wear it to your local store. :good:



The_Inquisitor said:


> rep to endangeredhuman. very nice explanation


Thank you! :so_happy:


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## Leaf (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow a confusing thread. I must admit that I do not know much about copyright laws. GW owns the design to the models we buy so that means we can not make molds and make counterfit models but I am not understanding why it would break copyright to take a picture of the model you purchased and painted. Another funny thing about copyright is any photo you take is yours and sort of copyrighted


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Leaf said:


> Wow a confusing thread. I must admit that I do not know much about copyright laws. GW owns the design to the models we buy so that means we can not make molds and make counterfit models but I am not understanding why it would break copyright to take a picture of the model you purchased and painted. Another funny thing about copyright is any photo you take is yours and sort of copyrighted


Oh no, you're not breaking copyright by taking a photo of it, it's just that Games Workship have rights to the photo you took. I'm sorry about the complecity of the content, but I hope it's been useful


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It's not breaking the law to take pictures of the model but to sell the picture of the model. the image of a Space marine, in any pose, style, paint scheme whatever, is their property and if you sell that picture it is a breech of copyright. Now if you use the picture to sell the models like on ebay then it's fine....


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## Max Hesperax (Aug 10, 2008)

Respects to endangered.

What about the 'merchant of Venice' solution?
would that work?
Just a thought.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Just so you all know: the UK and EU have very different laws than the USA.

In the EU I can legally take pictures of my GW models and sell the picture - as long as I do not claim that they are official GW photos. Mass produced products are not covered by copyright but are part of a system called 'registered design' which covers the shape of the object. Photographic copyrights have their very own sub-section in the law.

To say that GW can stop you taking pictures of your models would be the same as a car company banning motor sport programmes or pictures of cars.
The same applies to buildings. You can take pictures of a building without any problems, but you can't copy and distribute the plans used to make the building.

Cases only ever end up in court if someone is blatently trying to exploit a brand that they do not own - almost all cases are resolved out of court.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Im pretty certain GW wont bat an eye lid about a custom Tshirt. I made my boy a Ultra shirt he wore t Games day this year, with some of the Ultra icons from the wbe page I 'borrowed'. 

The chaps on the WD and package design stalls were most impressed with it.


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## koppo (Oct 29, 2007)

I am not following this. Buying a model and an video game are not the same. With video game the purchase is a licence to install and use that game. I am not buying a licence when I buy, say, an Ork Warboss model, I am buying a product. (Like a can of beer, some cheese or a Nissan Micra). I do not have the right to copy that product, I cannot start producing Nissan Micras and selling them as Missan Nicras. I can brew beer or make cheese but I cannot sell it as Bud Light or Cathedral City Cheddar.

To say I have bought the "right" to use the warboss is, in my mind, incorrect. I have exchanged ownership of some money for said warboss.

Where this ownership of photos comes in is not ownership of the model (which is separate to the copyright) but rather ownership of what it depicts. If I paint it as a Coke can I am using the IP of Coke. They would not own the model, or the copyright of the model, nor would they own the paint. They would own the Coke "image".

Am I wrong on this... If so please explain. But I seriously fail to see how purchase of a model is the same as the purchase of a licence to install a video game on my PC.

Edit:

Quick plumb of the GW site:



> PHOTOS OF PAINTED MODELS
> We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"


The IP reference is the copyright © of the miniature, not the item it's self.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

You are correct koppo. Buying a license is something entirely different to buying a product outright. GW's request to reference IP origin is about the most they have a right to expect in the case of pictures of models.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Aye, thanks for that Endangered, I didn't think there would be a problem, but I was reckoning your the fella who'd know if there was. 

On and nice one humakt, I might have to get around to doing one before next days Games Day, just for a laugh.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

koppo said:


> The IP reference is the copyright © of the miniature, not the item it's self.


how many people actually put all that bull in a post when showing off models


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I honestly don't get what's so difficult about the concept, really.

GW can't stop you taking photos of your models.
They can stop you from making money by using their designs without permission.
They can also use photos of your models if they like.

GW is not going to take your minis or delete your photobucket account.
Just don;t try to sell any knockoff minis, pirated books, or unlicensed merch.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Galahad said:


> They can also use photos of your models if they like.


Not in Europe. The person that took the picture has IP on the image and its use, and the person that did the painting has a stake too. GW would need permission.


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## marcch (Apr 1, 2008)

While I think this is a pretty interesting thread there are more important (gaming) issues out there to get twisted up about.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm glad to see everybody's thoughts on this subject. So far there's been a lot of good information put forth that explains quite well GW's IP copyright policies. Thanks for all the input guys. You've made for an intellectually stimulating thread.


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## Orc Town Grot (Jun 28, 2008)

You are getting worried about nothing.

Your models are safely yours and GW will neither sue you or harass you for taking or using photos of them.

What GW is declaring is its trade rights to the designs and names from their studio. What this means is that only they have the rights to use the designs and names for commercial purposes. 

Thus you couldn't take photos of their models (even your models), and use them for purposes of your own commercial enterprise, without risking possible violation of their copyrights. If you made big posters of your models to advertise a "Space Rangers" cafe, you would be stealing their product idea for your own purposes. They would have legal recourse to stop you, though they might actually grant you permission if you ask nicely and the useage actually promotes their company rather than using your ideas for your gain. No need to be paranoid that GW is trying to get you. They have legal recourse to defend their IP but it doesn't mean they are out to get you or your models. They don't want trouble!

GW products can't be used for people to make money with their own, different, ideas, brands and commercial products. They make their warnings, within their rights to keep the curious cautious and aware about what is fair use and what is infringing that!

ok?

OTG


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