# Who's to win?



## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

I've been thinking about this alot for a few weeks and I need to ask, who is going to control the Universe in the end?
My bets are either Tyranids or Necrons, Necrons because the C'tan can never truly die and the Necron armies are rising yet again from their tombs.
The Tyranids because they are quite literally all strength in numbers, and the only way to stop them is by teaming up with other races.

But they are my views anyway, if you have anny ideas please tell me...


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Nobody's gonna win, as long as Games Workshop can get money out of the Warhammer 40k universe. And I think that's the way it should be.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Nobody's gonna win, as long as Games Workshop can get money out of the Warhammer 40k universe. And I think that's the way it should be.


Good point :biggrin:

But if it was your decision, who would it be through their information you know about them.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

The Warhound said:


> I've been thinking about this alot for a few weeks and I need to ask, who is going to control the Universe in the end?


i think controlling the whole universe it a very tall order for any single race. lets just keep it to the galaxy for the time being.

although this topic comes up quite regularly (which is weird, because i've never been part of a discussion for another game system where people have asked that), i don't think that there is any way we could make a finite call on this.

my personal feeling is that it will be either Necrons, Tyranids or Chaos.

all three factions are ultimately defeatable, which is why i don't think you could say for definite, but i think all three have a permanence that other races lack.

irrespective of which race dominates the Galaxy at any given time, Chaos will always be in ascendancy. the nature of life in the 40kiverse means that it feeds Chaos with exactly what it needs to dominate and enslave. the forces of Chaos could find some way to bleed the two realities into one and make the whole galaxy into the equivalent of the Eye of Chaos, whether it is a deliberate plot by Tzeentch or a catastrophic event like the Fall of the Eldar. that would change the rules sufficiently to mean that no other faction could compete, let alone dominate the galaxy.

the Tyranids could wipe out all other races, but that would be something of a hollow victory, because they wouldn't care and would simply move on. perhaps more disturbingly, the Tyranids and Chaos could merge forces. the mutability and resilience of the Tyranids offering Chaos the perfect hosts in the real world. against such a combination i doubt anything could stand.

and finally i think that the Necrons could actually survive long enough to wipe out every other race, which would naturally destroy Chaos as we understand it. i'm not sure what they'd do after that. the end of time would seem a very long way off.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> Necrons because the C'tan can never truly die


Sure they can. During the war in heaven there were countless C'tan. Now there are only four.



> The Tyranids because they are quite literally all strength in numbers, and the only way to stop them is by teaming up with other races.


Not necessarily true. The necron as they are might have enough firepower and numbers to destroy the tyranids in an all out war. If the orks were to unite under one massive WAAUGH they'd probably be able to kill the tyranids, too, but that's never going to happen. The Imperium, eldar, and tau wouldn't be able to stand against the full force of the tyranid, though, even if they were to combine their forces.

If the 40K universe was to ever end, it would do so on chaos' terms. Really, they've already won. The galaxy is a dystopic, miserable cesspool of self-perpetuating wars and genocide. The only two sides that derive any amount of happiness from the status quo are the chaos powers and the orks, both of whom are having the time of their lives as the galaxy falls apart around them.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> The *imperium,* eldar, and tau wouldn't be able to stand against the full force of the tyranid, though, even if they were to combine their forces.
> 
> 
> > Im sorry but *WHAT* the imperium at the moment is the single largest millitary force present in the galaxy it has survived an uncountable ammount of wars and will survive many many more. But does anyone actually know how many tyranids there actually is. wherever there are humans the imperium will be there also how many tyranids does it take to kill 1 space marine chapter???. I havent read the tyranid codex but who knows the tyranids might be a dying race escaping from another army in their galaxy. i think chaos that are the only side able to "win" because you cant kill a deamon you can only banish them into another realm.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, the Imperium is a big fighting force, but with them cornered by every single race, I doubt they will last long, also they cannot defend themselves against armies like Necrons because they are inside their own planets, which means they can attack unexpectedly, and to kill a space marine chapter, you will need millions of Tyranids, but thats no problem as they are easy to create, as some targets found out...


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

And also, with the sudden rise of Chaos activity within the warp, and rapid hive fleet expansion, and lest I forget many awakenings of Necron Tomb Worlds, The other races are doomed, I see the C'tan and the Chaos gods joining together for a little while to strike on some of the tougher planets, like Terra, this is a maybe though, I doubt Khorne will be happy about it.
I reckon Tzeentch will take a liking in the Tyranids, because of their outstanding psychic abilities, and the other gods will just not care so long as they wipe out anything that lives.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Try using the search function before you start new threads, there are already several threads on this topic.



K3k3000 said:


> If the 40K universe was to ever end, it would do so on chaos' terms. Really, they've already won. The galaxy is a dystopic, miserable cesspool of self-perpetuating wars and genocide. The only two sides that derive any amount of happiness from the status quo are the chaos powers and the orks, both of whom are having the time of their lives as the galaxy falls apart around them.


Hear, hear.



The Warhound said:


> I see the C'tan and the Chaos gods joining together for a little while to strike on some of the tougher planets, like Terra


Would never happen.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

warsmith7752 said:


> Im sorry but *WHAT* the imperium at the moment is the single largest millitary force present in the galaxy it has survived an uncountable ammount of wars and will survive many many more.


The Imperium is already a dying empire. They're losing planets to orks, men to tau, and their god to slow, steady decay. The Imperium is in healthy enough state to survive for a while longer, but unless they pull a miracle from their asses they *will* fall to someone.



> But does anyone actually know how many tyranids there actually is.


A lot. So much so that the waves of tyranids that human beings have encountered can optimistically be considered scouting parties. It's all but guaranteed that the main tyranid force will be many, many times their size.



> wherever there are humans the imperium will be there also how many tyranids does it take to kill 1 space marine chapter???.


Hive Behemoth did so much damage to the ultramarines that it took them a century to recover. The last major hive fleet, Leviathan, came pretty close to Terra. The Imperium had to throw so many planets into its maw that they wouldn't be able to employ the same sacrificing strategy again and survive. Combine this with the shadow of the hive mind blocking out communication and psyker abilities (and warp travel, maybe?) and you can see why the Imperium could not survive a full tyranid invasion.



> havent read the tyranid codex but who knows the tyranids might be a dying race escaping from another army in their galaxy.


It's highly, highly likely that the tyranid outnumber humanity and can increase their numbers exponentially just my consuming a single planet. Even if they are a race on the run, they're hardly "dying."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Iin order to even have a hope of fighting off the tyranid attack the imperium would have to concentrate almost if not all of their military forces to the campaign. With the vast majority of their forces engaging the tyranids, the eastern portions of the imperium would be ripe for the taking and I am sure the warmaster wouldn't miss the opportunity. The attack of the tyranid main fleet would be the doomsday scenario for the imperium.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

K3k3000 said:


> their god to slow, steady decay.


Nurgle's ultimate triumph :so_happy:

The Chaos Gods have that much shit already;

Khorne hates Slaanesh and Tzeentch
Nurgle hates Tzeentch
Slaanesh hates Khorne
and Tzeentch hates Nurgle
(one big happy family :laugh

so i highly doubt that the Chaos Gods would get in kahootze with the C'tan


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> If the 40K universe was to ever end, it would do so on chaos' terms. Really, they've already won. The galaxy is a dystopic, miserable cesspool of self-perpetuating wars and genocide. The only two sides that derive any amount of happiness from the status quo are the chaos powers and the orks, both of whom are having the time of their lives as the galaxy falls apart around them.


This has always been the case with the Imperium, pre-heresy and during the great crusade and yet they've survived for 10k+ years even with the loss of the emperor and his primarchs.

Chaos can't 'win' nor would the powers want an outright, conventional victory.

The other races have a chance of truly defeating the imperium especially with the loss of the emperor/primarchs and the fragmented imperial army/Space Marines legions.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> Sure they can. During the war in heaven there were countless C'tan. Now there are only four.


Ah yes, because those four consumed all of the others. So far as I know, however, no other force--not even the Old Ones, during the War in Heaven--have successfully, directly destroyed C'tan.

Chaos is having the time of it's life right now, certainly. And it might get to be even more dominant, after the current, stagnant, GW imposed timeline-lock. The Nids will overpower in the end, though, as I see it.

And then the Necrons--what about the 'Nids vs the 'Crons? Well, sez I, what about that? The 'Nids frequently avoid tomb worlds, it seems, and the 'Crons are perfectly happy to let them munch on by. The C'tan would, as I imagine it, see the Great Devourer as nothing more than a second Enslaver Plague, and retreat into stasis again, while sentient life rose up again from the few scattered. surviving terrestrial planets. Sure, it would take a few million years, but what is time to Death, Insanity, Machine, and Deception incarnate?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> This has always been the case with the Imperium, pre-heresy and during the great crusade and yet they've survived for 10k+ years even with the loss of the emperor and his primarchs.
> 
> Chaos can't 'win' nor would the powers want an outright, conventional victory.
> 
> The other races have a chance of truly defeating the imperium especially with the loss of the emperor/primarchs and the fragmented imperial army/Space Marines legions.


What is an "outright, conventional victory?" Genocide of the Imperium? All other races? I imagine that's well within chaos' powers, should they want it. And you're right in saying they wouldn't want it, but what race in the galaxy would, beyond the Imperium? The tau would much rather coexist than kill, the tyranid and necron need/want the races as a food source, the orks would be ever so lonely without some humies to kill, the dark eldar need souls and psykers to torture, and the eldar, while smug as all get out, probably aren't so xenophobic that they'd want all races to die provided they can ensure that said races aren't a threat.

You can look at victory in one of two ways: beating down all opposition until no force is left that's strong enough to challenge you, or getting exactly what you want out of the conflict. Chaos wins in both cases with orks coming in a close second.



Mossy Toes said:


> Ah yes, because those four consumed all of the others. So far as I know, however, no other force--not even the Old Ones, during the War in Heaven--have successfully, directly destroyed C'tan.


It's difficult to say. The eldar had the talisman. They didn't kill the void dragon, but one can theorize that repeated blasts made it weak enough for the Emperor to deal with. The warp is anathema to the C'tan, and their ultimate goal is to seal it off from the material world. If the warp powers couldn't harm a C'tan, why would the existence of chaos mean anything to them?



> And then the Necrons--what about the 'Nids vs the 'Crons? Well, sez I, what about that? The 'Nids frequently avoid tomb worlds, it seems, and the 'Crons are perfectly happy to let them munch on by. The C'tan would, as I imagine it, see the Great Devourer as nothing more than a second Enslaver Plague, and retreat into stasis again, while sentient life rose up again from the few scattered. surviving terrestrial planets. Sure, it would take a few million years, but what is time to Death, Insanity, Machine, and Deception incarnate?


From what I can deduce, the C'tan didn't really like having to go into stasis. If they had a choice between using their immortal army of machine warriors to take down a threat to their supremacy and hitting the hay for another God knows how many years, my money's on them fighting. If they were afraid to get their hands dirty they'd just sleep until the galaxy threw them a race of feather filled pillow fighters. As it stands, Necron super-technology might be more than a match for tyranid numbers.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> What is an "outright, conventional victory?" Genocide of the Imperium? All other races? I imagine that's well within chaos' powers, should they want it. And you're right in saying they wouldn't want it, but what race in the galaxy would, beyond the Imperium? The tau would much rather coexist than kill,


True they would be more eager to have as many alien races embrace their path but they are not unlike the imperium in resorting to violence or to chaos's tendency to enslave those that disagree with them.



K3k3000 said:


> the tyranid and necron need/want the races as a food source,


The Tyranids do not care if they wipe out a race, they're all about finding new genetic strands of DNA to incorporate into their race. 

I think people mistake a tyranid's 'hunger' for insuring that they always have a bite to eat, rather than it being an instinctive urge to consume DNA.

The Necrons are all about securing a food source for their masters, so they are not beyond destroying the 'imperium' and leaving its leaderless populace defenseless against the Ctan. They're like farmers, and it's probably why the majority of the Necron foot-soldier's we've seen are called harvesters.



K3k3000 said:


> the orks would be ever so lonely without some humies


Not really, I recall one incident where the Orks fought against the rat-race and found endless battles (not sure if that's from Warhammer or WH40k though but an Ork is an Ork) and got bored of fighting the same race in what was ultimately a stalemate. I doubt the Orks would even notice that they would be sending humanity closer and closer to extinction, they're all about fighting and finding new foes. So I don't think the removal of humanity would upset them.



K3k3000 said:


> the dark eldar need souls and psykers to torture,


They don't need the imperium to do that, they get more of a kick torturing their eldar brothers



K3k3000 said:


> And the eldar, while smug as all get out, probably aren't so xenophobic that they'd want all races to die provided they can ensure that said races aren't a threat.


The eldar wouldn't care less about any race, just as long as an eldar's life is not threatened in the slightest.

And whether or not they are as xenophobic as the imperium is debatable, at least the latter have reasons to fear aliens.



K3k3000 said:


> You can look at victory in one of two ways: beating down all opposition until no force is left that's strong enough to challenge you, or getting exactly what you want out of the conflict. Chaos wins in both cases with orks coming in a close second.


A conventional victory would be the destruction of your enemy or turning them to your allies.

Chaos would be more in favor with the latter but even if they wanted to see the total annihilation of the imperium and humanity, I don't think they could do it. Abbadon's crusades come to mind and they (their purpose I suppose are debatable) failed 13 times to even slip past one planet (enter the 'but was that Abbadon's true purpose ? ' )




Mossy Toes said:


> Ah yes, because those four consumed all of the others. So far as I know, however, no other force--not even the Old Ones, during the War in Heaven--have successfully, directly destroyed C'tan.
> 
> Chaos is having the time of it's life right now, certainly. And it might get to be even more dominant, after the current, stagnant, GW imposed timeline-lock. The Nids will overpower in the end, though, as I see it.
> 
> And then the Necrons--what about the 'Nids vs the 'Crons? Well, sez I, what about that? The 'Nids frequently avoid tomb worlds, it seems, and the 'Crons are perfectly happy to let them munch on by. The C'tan would, as I imagine it, see the Great Devourer as nothing more than a second Enslaver Plague, and retreat into stasis again, while sentient life rose up again from the few scattered. surviving terrestrial planets. Sure, it would take a few million years, but what is time to Death, Insanity, Machine, and Deception incarnate?


The Ctan might even get involved if the Tyranids do eventually gain the upper hand and start devouring en masse. They'd most certainly want to keep their food source intact to avoid another enslaver plague induced hibernation period


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## magnus962 (Mar 8, 2010)

I may be wrong here but my current understanding of the Necron history (or the known history from GW so far) is that they at one point had completely dominated the entire galaxy and ran out of things to kill/overcome which is why they went into their hibernation. If I am wrong about this or am misunderstanding it, by all means please correct me. But if I'm not then that means the Necrons already "won" once already... right?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

magnus962 said:


> I may be wrong here but my current understanding of the Necron history (or the known history from GW so far) is that they at one point had completely dominated the entire galaxy and ran out of things to kill/overcome which is why they went into their hibernation. If I am wrong about this or am misunderstanding it, by all means please correct me. But if I'm not then that means the Necrons already "won" once already... right?


Nah they weren't really dominating the galaxy (although I think they can especially with the removal of the Old Ones and the potential of the 'Great Work' of the Ctan to remove all ties of the warp from the material realm).

Basically the Necrons and the Ctan went to war with the Old ones, the latter creating psychically attuned races (eldar, orks, etc.) to help them in battle which led to the enslavers emerging form the warp and possessing apparently everything that emitted a psychic aura.

This caused the Old Ones to become extinct and why the Ctans went into hibernation, as the majority of their 'food' was destroyed by the enslavers.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I think people are missing the fact that if the imperium fell their would be no massive ass fleets protecting human worlds so..yah no imperium means the general extinction of all none chaos humans. Sure you find a few million spread through out the stars, but not enough to satisfy the Necrons/Tyranids/Chaos since the galaxy is even more deadly then when the imperium was founded.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> Sure they can. During the war in heaven there were countless C'tan. Now there are only four.


They can be consummed but not destroyed. I wonder if the warp and chaos can destroy them. That would be the ultimate question because they do fear them. As far as things go I would say if any race was able to survive it would be the C'tan though I think it would just be one of them, just because they like to indulge themselves with everything including the necrons. Thats why I didn't say the necrons would win. Though the C'tan need slaves for their master plan, they would eventually destroy them. They could also go into consumming the ork supply I guess. With all the races destroyed, I don't think chaos would "exist" as it would eventually run out of souls to consume and just fight each other until they destroyed themselves pretty much.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> They can be consummed but not destroyed. I wonder if the warp and chaos can destroy them. That would be the ultimate question because they do fear them.


I don't think they fear the warp or anything for that matter. Just because something causes you pain doesn't mean you necessarily fear it.

And I think they can only be truly killed by the hands of one another, they don't have a safe treehouse to run back to if they 'die' like Chaos do lol.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Chaos would be more in favor with the latter but even if they wanted to see the total annihilation of the imperium and humanity, I don't think they could do it. Abbadon's crusades come to mind and they (their purpose I suppose are debatable) failed 13 times to even slip past one planet (enter the 'but was that Abbadon's true purpose ? ' )


You have to differentiate between the Chaos Gods themselves and their mortal followers. The Chaos Space Marines may desire the destruction of the Imperium and the death of the Emperor but the Chaos Gods may not. 

The Chaos Gods essentially have 2 purposes in their existence: The Great Game of Chaos, and are concerned with 'the eternal flow of emotion across aeons'.

They are happy to sit back and fight each other, whilst at the same time keeping an eye on the eternal flow of emotion - to take advantage of and to make sure no credable threats to their existence/dominance arise in Real Space or otherwise.



ckcrawford said:


> They can be consummed but not destroyed


We don't know if they can be destroyed. Somehow I imagine they could be though.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

the imperium may die but man shall never fall completely and whos to say that another man just as poweful as the emporor wont be born and create even more uber imperiumnessand were all forgeting that the imperium is suceeding in some of its ventures for example ork waaaaagh takes over planet space marines take over the ork planet. and there is so many millions of ways the imperium will pull through and not die anyway sure the emporor may die but then he will be reincarnated as starchild because you can never truly kill a god. Sure you can silence him for a few thousand years but you cannot kill them properly.


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

the battle will be endless but the overall winner in my opinion would be the imperium (space marines,imperial guards,witchhunters,daemonhunters,blood angels etc...) because with the combined might of the imperium no army would survive. as for necrons they are robots and have no desire for controll, the tyranids would eventually feed of eachother if you take the other armies away. and as for chaos they stand no chance against the imperium...


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

No offense swiftnomore but are you trolling or something I mean it has been well established by the published fiction that a universal imperial victory is at this point impossible. unless a miracle happened... or six. Hell even the Tau corrently have a better chance of a unicersal vitory then the imperium of man.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Tyranids do not care if they wipe out a race, they're all about finding new genetic strands of DNA to incorporate into their race.
> 
> I think people mistake a tyranid's 'hunger' for insuring that they always have a bite to eat, rather than it being an instinctive urge to consume DNA.


I think on some very basic level the hive mind realizes that it's better to not feed past your upkeep, but you may be right. Either way, the more humans that live, the better chance the tyranids have of absorbing new DNA.

[Qupte]The Necrons are all about securing a food source for their masters, so they are not beyond destroying the 'imperium' and leaving its leaderless populace defenseless against the Ctan. They're like farmers, and it's probably why the majority of the Necron foot-soldier's we've seen are called harvesters.[/Quote]
The imperium maybe. Humanity? Certainly not. They'd beat down humanity until they could no longer raise significant resistance, then continue to harvest them.



> Not really, I recall one incident where the Orks fought against the rat-race and found endless battles (not sure if that's from Warhammer or WH40k though but an Ork is an Ork) and got bored of fighting the same race in what was ultimately a stalemate. I doubt the Orks would even notice that they would be sending humanity closer and closer to extinction, they're all about fighting and finding new foes. So I don't think the removal of humanity would upset them.


Endless battles with a race that employs super soldiers like the space marines? I highly doubt the orks would ever get bored of fighting them. Not until they manage to get the upper hand, anyway. Even if orks did get bored fighting humans, they would become much more bored with simply fighting themselves. Orks benefit from a wide variety of diverse races to tear apart.



> They don't need the imperium to do that, they get more of a kick torturing their eldar brothers


The dark eldar are a clever race bent on survival at all cost. Relying on their eldar brothers is like relying on Alaska's oil cache. It might hold you off for a little while, but something's going to give, eventually. The dark eldar wouldn't want any available supply of souls to go squandered.



> The eldar wouldn't care less about any race, just as long as an eldar's life is not threatened in the slightest.


My point exactly. The Eldar WOULDN'T care. Whereas the Imperium feels that the very existence of xenos is an insult to the holy emperor, the Eldar see races as a threat at worst and tools at best. The Imperium would hunt down and destroy the most insignificant of intelligent lifeforms on principle, whereas the eldar would likely just ignore them.



> Chaos would be more in favor with the latter but even if they wanted to see the total annihilation of the imperium and humanity, I don't think they could do it. Abbadon's crusades come to mind and they (their purpose I suppose are debatable) failed 13 times to even slip past one planet (enter the 'but was that Abbadon's true purpose ? ' )


If the chaos powers truly, completely wanted the galaxy to be emptied of all life, I think they're capable of it. Nothing is beyond corruption, a lesson the Imperium has learned time and time again, and if the chaos powers can hurl the primarchs to the edges of the galaxy and send the emperor's favored son at his throat, I think it's in them to orchestrate a successful, if extremely haphazard, campaign against the life of the galaxy. Again, they'd never want to do so, but I feel it's in their power to do it.



> The Ctan might even get involved if the Tyranids do eventually gain the upper hand and start devouring en masse. They'd most certainly want to keep their food source intact to avoid another enslaver plague induced hibernation period


Agreed.


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## barBEARian (Mar 15, 2010)

orks would win if they all banned together


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

barBEARian said:


> orks would win if they all banned together


It's band, and yes, we all know that. It's just that that would never happen. Personally I think that depending on a number of factors, any of the top players mentioned here can come out on top, even the Imperium with all its enemies. It's all in the dice my friends.


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## Delta1 (Apr 5, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> No offense swiftnomore but are you trolling or something I mean it has been well established by the published fiction that a universal imperial victory is at this point impossible. unless a miracle happened... or six. Hell even the Tau corrently have a better chance of a unicersal vitory then the imperium of man.


x2. the imperium is at "the time of ending" right now. which pretty much means the time of the imperium ruling the galaxy with an iron fist is over. they cannot claim new worlds as easily as they did before. they are fighting a 10 front war for survival. what the imperium is doing right now is making sure the million worlds they have under their control dont perish/fall to enemy hands. no more conquering, just trying to survive.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> No offense swiftnomore but are you trolling or something I mean it has been well established by the published fiction that a universal imperial victory is at this point impossible. unless a miracle happened...


actually i have to disagree with you on this one. there is a lot of apocalyptic rhetoric about the Imperium, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. its still a very distinct possibility that the Emperor will be liberated from the Golden Throne and reunite humanity, guiding them on their steps to become the most powerful fully psychic race ever. in fact, given the narrative of the 40kiverse, that's actually the most likely outcome.


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

admiraldick said:


> actually i have to disagree with you on this one. there is a lot of apocalyptic rhetoric about the Imperium, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. its still a very distinct possibility that the Emperor will be liberated from the Golden Throne and reunite humanity, guiding them on their steps to become the most powerful fully psychic race ever. in fact, given the narrative of the 40kiverse, that's actually the most likely outcome.


yes i agree, if the emporer did come back then the imperium would be next to unstoppable (not saying they won't get defeated but it is unlikely that they will), if lord solar macharius came back then the imperium will have a sudden boost in victories. :victory:


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> No offense swiftnomore but are you trolling or something I mean it has been well established by the published fiction that a universal imperial victory is at this point impossible. unless a miracle happened... or six. Hell even the Tau corrently have a better chance of a unicersal vitory then the imperium of man.


half of the armies in 40k are that of the imperium so what your speakin is bullshit :taunt::taunt::taunt:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Considering your age I will ignore the fact that the more you talk the stupider you sound swiftnomore. However I can't ignore how insanely stupid your last comment was. The reason that half the armies in 40k belong to the emperium has nothing to do with the size of the emperium or its strength, and everything to do with how the emperium of man is more or less the center piece of warhammer 40ks narrative. If each factions strength/numbers was presented by the number of armies associated with said faction Orks would have 5+ armies daemons would have 6+, and the Tyrandis would have 7+. Actually kinda think about it considering who vastly outgunned/outnumbered the emperiums is its stronger enemies most of their attention most be in fighting wars that have nothing to do with the emperium...what or else the whole story line one big poorly put together sci-fi that only exists to generate a perpetual state of war for a table top strategy game that at times has so little to do with how real wars are fought we may as well be playing with unicorns, and flying spaghetti monsters then tanks and guns.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

swiftnomore said:


> the battle will be endless but the overall winner in my opinion would be the imperium (space marines,imperial guards,witchhunters,daemonhunters,blood angels etc...) because with the combined might of the imperium no army would survive. as for necrons they are robots and have no desire for controll, the tyranids would eventually feed of eachother if you take the other armies away. and as for chaos they stand no chance against the imperium...


... What? No offense, mate, but you're really not making any sort of cohesive argument, there. It's like you think the rest of the galaxy is just going to sit back and get their asses handed to them. 

The necron have no desire for control? Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn't be fighting, now would they? They want nothing less than to harvest the mortal races of the world, and their devotion to their dark gods is nothing less than what the humans have for theirs. And they have the technology and numbers to make it happen.

The tyranids would eventually feed on one another if yo take the other armies away? How much do you know about how the tyranids work? The tyranids had absolutely nothing to eat on their way to the Imperium's galaxy, and they still vastly outnumber humanity. What's more, the Imperium and its armies have nowhere to run to; they can't go further than the galactic boundaries, leaving their worlds would mean the depletion of ammo, weapons, armor, and manpower, and if they were try to run they'd just get their asses handed to them by all the other invaders they've been trying to fight back for thousands of years. And even if they _did_ manage to run, it wouldn't starve the tyranids anyway, as they'd just absorb all the biomass from the planets the imperium left behind. 

No, the Imperium isn't in any positon to defeat any faction in the galaxy at the moment. On the impossible chance that the combined might of the Imperium _could_ defeat the necron or tyranid, their forces would be so diminished that a lobotomized dark eldar on a rusty space junk could kill the remaining few.



swiftnomore said:


> half of the armies in 40k are that of the imperium so what your speakin is bullshit :taunt::taunt::taunt:


Except he isn't. More armies doesn't equate to more numbers. All you're really saying is that the Imperium has divided its numbers between several specialized forces. It doesn't mean the Imperium has more men than anyone. Quite the contrary, the orks and tyranid outnumber them.



swiftnomore said:


> yes i agree, if the emporer did come back then the imperium would be next to unstoppable (not saying they won't get defeated but it is unlikely that they will), if lord solar macharius came back then the imperium will have a sudden boost in victories. :victory:


How do you figure? When the Emperor died the threat to the Imperium was significantly weaker than it is now. The tyranid and necron threats are things the Emperor never really had to contend with. I'm not saying the Emperor wouldn't greatly aid humanity, just that he certainly wouldn't ensure victory. Among other things, it would mean the forces of chaos would once again unite against humanity's god king. He didn't fair so well the first time, what makes you think he'd do better the second?


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

anyone who disagrees with me, just to let you know i've collected 40k for 6 months and don't know much about the other armies. i have a 1333 point imperial guard army and have slayed my opponents many times (no offence warhound) i'm not showing off i'm just lettin u guys know what i'm on about


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

swiftnomore said:


> anyone who disagrees with me, just to let you know i've collected 40k for 6 months and don't know much about the other armies. i have a 1333 point imperial guard army and have slayed my opponents many times (no offence warhound) i'm not showing off i'm just lettin u guys know what i'm on about


Alright...... how the hell is that even remotely relevant? That has nothing to do with fluff what so ever!:laugh:


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Alright...... how the hell is that even remotely relevant? That has nothing to do with fluff what so ever!:laugh:


because i want to let you know  :taunt:


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

swiftnomore said:


> anyone who disagrees with me, just to let you know i've collected 40k for 6 months and don't know much about the other armies. i have a 1333 point imperial guard army and have slayed my opponents many times (no offence warhound) i'm not showing off i'm just lettin u guys know what i'm on about


What?!?
With the amount of upgrades your models have which you haven't counted points values for! (don't deny it Swift, you admitted it last time we had a battle)
So you overpower all the way through, so... why did I get 'slayed' then?
The mind wonders... :taunt:
(no offense either)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh my god you are an idiot.:shok: Well I am sorry that might be too harsh...... simply a 13 year old child. That is a satisfactory explanation I suppose. lol


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

But anyways, back on the subject, if the Emperor suddenly gets revived in front of everyone i will have to kill somebody... (good thing it's never gonna happen)


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Even if the Emperor revived, it depends in what form he is in. If he's in an incorporeal form in the warp like a warp entity then the odds of the Imperium being rejuvenated against their enemies (particularly chaos) is definitely true but does not necessarily mean automatic win for the Imperials. Chaos threats are definitely going to go down in number but not wiped out altogether and still be a relatively large threat but severly reduced in power than they are now. Other xenos races will however be relatively unaffected like Tyranids or Orks, so what if the Emp came back? They don't really give fudge monkeys about him and will go continuing on with beating the crap out of people. Same goes for Tau and Eldar as well. However if the Emp came back in the material realm somehow (the least likely since he's a rotting corpse) then it would be the opposite in a way, assuming he found a way to fix and seal the webway the Golden Throne is supposed to block, then he'll definitely lead a new better age of the Imperium against those in the material realm but Chaos wise not as much as he's about the same as before he was interned in the GT. Well that's how I see it.


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

With all due respects to the Emperor, but I heard this guy say somewhere that the Emperor was making deals with the Chaos Gods not to attack certain planets, this sounds pretty stupid as he is the Emperor, why couldn't he just get a load of marines and kick their butts, is this all true?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No. lol He made a deal and stole some of their power though.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Grimskul25 said:


> Even if the Emperor revived, it depends in what form he is in. If he's in an incorporeal form in the warp like a warp entity then the odds of the Imperium being rejuvenated against their enemies (particularly chaos) is definitely true but does not necessarily mean automatic win for the Imperials. Chaos threats are definitely going to go down in number but not wiped out altogether and still be a relatively large threat but severly reduced in power than they are now. Other xenos races will however be relatively unaffected like Tyranids or Orks, so what if the Emp came back? They don't really give fudge monkeys about him and will go continuing on with beating the crap out of people. Same goes for Tau and Eldar as well. However if the Emp came back in the material realm somehow (the least likely since he's a rotting corpse) then it would be the opposite in a way, assuming he found a way to fix and seal the webway the Golden Throne is supposed to block, then he'll definitely lead a new better age of the Imperium against those in the material realm but Chaos wise not as much as he's about the same as before he was interned in the GT. Well that's how I see it.


xenos would have to worry because the emporor *is* the greatest warrior of all time (excluding gods and things like that). So they would keep getting ownd by the emp and his new technologys.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I really wish something interesting would happen in 40k I mean the whole tyrannid threat thing isn't so much interesting as it is mind numbingly booring I mean the whole idea that one faction just drops into the known univers is kinda boring (Do to how retardedly overpowered they are in fluff) I mean atleast the emporer waking up or a massed assault by necrons would lead to dyanamic interesting battles instead of retarded meat grinders involving nids.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

warsmith7752 said:


> xenos would have to worry because the emporor *is* the greatest warrior of all time (excluding gods and things like that). So they would keep getting ownd by the emp and his new technologys.


Yes but he's still only one man and the Imperium of M41 isn't as strong or unified as the Imperium of the Great Crusade- if the Emperor were to be revivied (something I don't see ever happening) then the Imperium's lot might improve but I wouldn't expect miracles.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

I believe we'll see a revived Imperium, but not from the Emperor.

Theres 4 lost Primarchs that stayed loyal: Russ, the Khan, Vulkan and Corax.

I think one, some or all of them reappearing would switch things back into the favor of the Imperium.

Those events would probably keep us deadlocked for quite some time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I believe we'll see a revived Imperium, but not from the Emperor.
> 
> Theres 4 lost Primarchs that stayed loyal: Russ, the Khan, Vulkan and Corax.
> 
> ...


Even if there not dead and did return, how would it make a massive difference?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It would be the epinephrine shot to the heart of the imperium. It would give them leaders to rally around and better strategists then the imperium could possibly produce otherwise. A good leader can change a great deal.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even if there not dead and did return, how would it make a massive difference?


Well, you would see the return of the greatest warriors the Imperium would have to offer.

Would provide new leadership to the military, and provide inspirational boosts to all of the Imperium.

Also, they've all been gone a very long time. Some to the EoT I believe? Khan to the webway. Thats a lot of time to possibly come back with some new things about Chaos or the nature of the Webway revealed.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Possibly but even the best General is only as good as the forces he commands and if they couldb't outright win when the Imperium was at it's zenith then a few new tricks won't be enough with the Imperium as relatively weak as it is and the enemies of mankind as mighty as they now are.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The best generals can improve the forces they command. Improve tactics, improve the government and improve technological development and you have a much more efficient and much more effective empire.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

So if they returned would the Tyranids be beaten back? Would the Chaos forces be subdued? Would the Orks scatter and the mightest warlords be defeated? No. They are only individuals in an incomprehensibly vast galaxy, yes they are warriors and generals without peer, but they cannot take on Chaos and the Xenos hordes by themselves. They may tilt the balance in certain engagements when they are present, but they cannot be everywhere at once. The Primarchs returning would achieve next to nothing, perhaps maybe a morale boost at best, or a devastating civil war at worst.



AgentOrange24 said:


> Also, they've all been gone a very long time. Some to the EoT I believe? Khan to the webway. Thats a lot of time to possibly come back with some new things about Chaos or the nature of the Webway revealed.


That, or they could have been corrupted


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is why they are generals, they lead the armies. Chaos would be beaten back off of cadia, they warmaster is a great general but nothing compared to a primarch. With the primarchs help new and brilliant tactics could be made to made to combat the different enemies of the empire. With the lion, battle tactics could evolve beyond what they are now. With Smurf man the government could be streamlined. With the other primarchs you could have the greatest frontline generals of the empire. It could mean the regained dominance of the empire. Look what Lord Commander Solar Macharius did for the empire; he conquered more than a thousand worlds in only seven years. Now you would have 4 generals that are far beyond even what he could ever have hoped to become. It would mean great things for the imperium.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Possibly but even the best General is only as good as the forces he commands and if they couldb't outright win when the Imperium was at it's zenith then a few new tricks won't be enough with the Imperium as relatively weak as it is and the enemies of mankind as mighty as they now are.



And Chaos didn't win either, and while the Chaos Powers do wish for an empire in a constant state of turmoil to feast off of, it's not like it occurred only when the emperor became trapped on the golden throne. During the Great Crusade, everything we see in the post-heresy occurred only with slight variations.

Even while the emperor was up and running, the chaos powers were doing just fine with the constant wars and the destruction of alien races, and so on.

If anything, the Imperium got the most out of the war, Abaddon is stuck in the eye of terror and the chaos powers only manage to turn a planet or two at a time into a nest of cultists. 

Their armies are minuscule and much weaker in comparison to the Imperiums, they're just a disease that the imperium hasn't found a cure for.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So if they returned would the Tyranids be beaten back? Would the Chaos forces be subdued? Would the Orks scatter and the mightest warlords be defeated? No. They are only individuals in an incomprehensibly vast galaxy, yes they are warriors and generals without peer, but they cannot take on Chaos and the Xenos hordes by themselves. They may tilt the balance in certain engagements when they are present, but they cannot be everywhere at once. The Primarchs returning would achieve next to nothing, perhaps maybe a morale boost at best, or a devastating civil war at worst.


There are many cases of mere Commisars or Inquisitors who rally their forces and through sheer charisma turn the tides of the war.

The primarchs were similar to the emperor in that each and every one of them had this aura that lit up any room they walked in and boosted morale tenfold.

As I mentioned before, if the emperor for example were to return, the morale and efficiency of the imperium would *easily *hit the 500% mark needed to deal with the incoming main tyranid hive fleet.

If one of the Primarchs were to return, a similar or maybe even the same levels of morale could be achieved.

And let's not forget the intelligence each Primarch possesses, they would easily be the smartest living members of the imperium.

Yes, they would not be able to totally defeat chaos or the tyranids, etc. but the combined forces of all the imperium's foes could not crush the imperium even in their weakest and darkest hour. 

And while no one truly knows where exactly each of the primarchs vanished to, maybe they didn't just vanish to take part in their own adventure. 

Perhaps they were each assigned secret missions by the emperor, passed on by Rogal Dorn when he found the dying emperor and was told how to build the golden throne, that would greatly aid the imperium in time or is the very reason as to why the imperium has endured for ten thousand years.

You underestimate what the mere presence of a Primarch is capable of doing especially after ten thousand years of hopelessness and when the emperor and his primarchs have become figures of legend, myths and figures passed off into the annals of history in the eyes of ordinary citizens/soldiers.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You realise that 500% rate has nothing to do with morale or efficiency right? It's the minimum amount Imperial Guard conscription rates must be increased across the entire Imperium to successsfully fight against the current Tyranid menace- that's just the Tyranid Hive Fleets, not any other of the countless enemies of the Imperium.

If the Primarchs can have such an effect why didn't they after the Heresy? The majority of the surviving loyalist Primarchs were around for at least a century or 2 after the Scouring ended and they didn't manage anything that really could be considered extraordinary.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> You realise that 500% rate has nothing to do with morale or efficiency right? It's the minimum amount Imperial Guard conscription rates must be increased across the entire Imperium to successsfully fight against the current Tyranid menace- that's just the Tyranid Hive Fleets, not any other of the countless enemies of the Imperium.




How do you think the 500% rate could occur?

How do you think wars, and battles are fought?

How was the imperium and the great crusade founded? 

Lorgar for example was able to sway entire worlds to his cause without waging war but simply using words.

If the imperium can defeat the incoming main Tyranid fleet, do you honestly think they can't handle the other, much less dangerous alien menaces or the other threats they encounter?



Baron Spikey said:


> If the Primarchs can have such an effect why didn't they after the Heresy? The majority of the surviving loyalist Primarchs were around for at least a century or 2 after the Scouring ended and they didn't manage anything that really could be considered extraordinary.


After the heresy, the entire imperium was still in shock over what had just happened and what major war related event occurred prior to the remaining primarchs vanishing that required massive preparation ?

And as I mentioned, *after *ten thousand years *of hopelessness* and when the emperor and his primarchs have become figures of legend, myths and figures passed off into the annals of history in the eyes of ordinary citizens/soldiers, just to see one alive would change the mood of the imperium dramatically.

Various commissars/inquisitors, mere humans, have turned the tides of war with their mere presence and commanding aura, imagine what a Primarch could do, especially one not disillusioned to the fact that Chaos is not a threat to be taken lightly as seen pre-heresy.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks to those that articulated my ideas better than I did.

I'm not saying this would allow the Imperium to "win" control of the galaxy.

I believe it would just allow them to maintain the status quo. Keep fighting the fight I suppose you could say.

Without anything happening, and things continuing on their current course, I would say on the current course than the Necrons and C'Tan will win.


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

The Warhound said:


> What?!?
> With the amount of upgrades your models have which you haven't counted points values for! (don't deny it Swift, you admitted it last time we had a battle)
> So you overpower all the way through, so... why did I get 'slayed' then?
> The mind wonders... :taunt:
> (no offense either)


i have admitted no such thing. :laugh:

company command squad with regimental standard, power fist, power weapon, heavy flamer, karapace armour, master of the ordnance = 160 points

lord commisar with power weapon, carapace armour = 90 points

commisar yarrick 185 points

primaris psyker 70 points

techpriest enginseer 45 points

ratling squad 50 points

psyker battle squad 50 points with primaris psyker (points cost included earlier)

infantry squad x3 = 180 points

heavy weapons squad of lascannons (105 points)

2x heavy weapon teams of missile launchers (60 points)

chimera armoured transport with dozer blade = 65 points

leman russ battle tank with lascannon, pair of heavy bloter sponsons =185 points

overall points cost= 1245 points

(sorry for proving you wrong but you really should get your facts straight before you try to be a smartarse) :taunt:

p.s: that means our army's are even and i beat you fair and square 

p.p.s: you have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER BEAT ME IN A GAME!!!


For starters, do not post individual point costs for upgrades, it is against list posting rules; something you'd likely know if you were posting an army list in the appropriate section rather than spamming this topic with one where its not needed or relevant. As for the list itself, have some things to say about that over on page seven for you. - darkreever


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## The Warhound (Feb 13, 2010)

wrong... just simply wrong...

now if we can stay on subject now *please* swift?

No need to doublepost, you have an edit button. - darkreever


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

The Warhound said:


> wrong... just simply wrong...


how the hell is that wrong?! :nono:



The Warhound said:


> now if we can stay on subject now *please* swift?


lmao you were the one that swerved us of subject :taunt:

You also have an edit button, so there is no reason for a doublepost for you. - darkreever


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

swiftnomore said:


> i have admitted no such thing.
> 
> company command squad with regimental standard, power fist, power weapon, heavy flamer, karapace armour, master of the ordnance = 160 points
> 
> ...


What are you trying to prove with all these (some of them admittedly wrong as well....) points. And by the way you never post direct points from a codex so please avoid posting that and just get back on the subject. I'm sorry but honestly if you have nothing to contribute but continue to post irrelevant things then go somewhere please. 

Anywho back on subject I think although the Emperor or Primarchs return might not majorly improve the Imperium force-wise the fact that they're back themselves would probably improve the effeciency or at least morale across sectors as legendary figures such as them would be overwhelmingly positive in a negative galaxy. The hope and actual military prowess/contribution given from their return would likely change the structure of the Imperium (likely positively) would most likely create a new crusade of of reclamation. (of course not nearly near the Great Crusade but probably along the lines of Solar Macharius' Crusade)

While its good to point out that you should not be posting individual points, quoting that post doesn't do much help as now there are two posts containing the problem. - darkreever


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And Chaos didn't win either, and while the Chaos Powers do wish for an empire in a constant state of turmoil to feast off of, it's not like it occurred only when the emperor became trapped on the golden throne. During the Great Crusade, everything we see in the post-heresy occurred only with slight variations.
> 
> 
> > I'd say chaos did win. They achieved their goal of removing their deadliest threat in the galaxy and gained powerful pawns of the materium in the process.
> ...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Right, so swiftnomore guess what? This is no place for an army list to be tossed up, especially when no one has asked you to. (Being called out on something regarding a previous game is not a reason.)

Keep it on topic for those of you who have been throwing it off, this is your warning so don't push it. If you have a point to make, one side or the other, than make sure it is backed up by something more credible than your own speculation or interpretation. Its harder for someone to prove your points wrong when yours are backed up by credible facts/sources from the fluff. (That do agree with you, no point in arguing, say, that the Emperor is a chaos god and then backing it up with him brokering power from them and stealing it and somehow proving he is not a chaos god.)


As for that list of yours swiftnomore, its wholeheartedly illegal. To many HQ's and not enough troop choices (in fact the list does not even contain one complete troop choice.)


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## swiftnomore (Feb 15, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Right, so swiftnomore guess what? This is no place for an army list to be tossed up, especially when no one has asked you to. (Being called out on something regarding a previous game is not a reason.)
> 
> Keep it on topic for those of you who have been throwing it off, this is your warning so don't push it. If you have a point to make, one side or the other, than make sure it is backed up by something more credible than your own speculation or interpretation. Its harder for someone to prove your points wrong when yours are backed up by credible facts/sources from the fluff. (That do agree with you, no point in arguing, say, that the Emperor is a chaos god and then backing it up with him brokering power from them and stealing it and somehow proving he is not a chaos god.)
> 
> ...


how does my list not a contain a whole troop choice?!, and most of my hq's are joined with other squads to make em legal. clearly you know nothing of 40k


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh you silly fool. Joining HQs with troops does not make them troops. LOL They are still independent


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ugh WH40k monopoly doesn't belong here.



K3k3000 said:


> I'd say chaos did win. They achieved their goal of removing their deadliest threat in the galaxy and gained powerful pawns of the materium in the process.


They did a lot of damage but they didn't really remove their no.1 enemy, in fact he's keeping the worst of their invasions at bay even in his very weak state.




K3k3000 said:


> You're underestimating the power of chaos. Chaos astartes are still space marines in terms of power and equipment, their cultists are legion and their daemons innumerable, and the powers themselves can corrupt anything and everyone with very, very few exceptions. The Imperium will never be rid of chaos and its minions, certainly not in their controlling, dogmatic society that pushes the oppressed toward alternate routes and faiths.


While Chaos Space Marines are a threat, I'm positive their numbers are tiny in comparison to the loyalist space marines, especially since they can't really recruit new members, obtain new gene-seed, and creating weapons is not as easy for them due to their low amount of forge-worlds.

Also the masters they serve are fickle and won't fork over a daemon spawn whenever the Chaos SM's/forces want them.



K3k3000 said:


> It's certainly possible that the Emperor could have that much effect on the Imperium, but to say it would definitely and easily happen is hoping for a bit much. It's a possibility, not a certainty. Who knows what would happen if the Emperor returned? The masses could line in behind him like contrite sheep, or the high lords and governors and church could denounce the Emperor as an impersonator and gain the support of a sizeable portion of humanity, who may just have been worshiping the ecclesiarchy instead of the man it was meant to be dedicated to. Remember, this is the 40K setting. If humanity or another race doesn't do the absolutely worst thing possible in any given situation, it ain't 40K. Things get darker, never brighter.



I'm positive the massess would all follow him without a second thought, of course there may be a few who don't or like the old system but they would be mere thorns in the emperor's side.

I'm 100% sure no one would doubt that the revived emperor would be an imposter, I don't think such a plan could even be concieved, what with the emperor's glowing hot persona and aura.

The revived emperor would probably acknowledge the imperial cult or just go through extra efforts to abolish it, and in my mind the emperor without a doubt is capable of doing it. He's not anyone, he's the founder of the entire imperium.

True things always do get darker and turn for the worst since it is GW's business model for WH40k but I'm just talking about it from a fluff perspective and what would most likely occur if GW didn't dictate the terms.





K3k3000 said:


> Only civil war would be much more likely, the primarchs would be much more susceptible to the influence of chaos, and the technological progress needed to reach the 500% mark probably wouldn't happen. I'd say if the Imperium were to accept the Emperor than the Imperium would hold out for quite a bit longer, maybe even make enough of a reversal to challenge, if not outright defeat, its many threats. I don't see a primarch making much of a difference.


How would civil war be more likely?

And how would the primarchs be more susceptible to chaos taint upon their return? If anything they would be even more adept at resisting chaos's corruption.

I don't think reaching the 500% mark would require a feat of technology in the sense that new creations would have to emerge but rather production/assembly lines would have to be more efficient and resources would have to be diverted to the war-effort.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I find the idea of primarchs causing a civil war vary likely considering the current leaders of the imperium (The high lords of Terra) have demonstrated in various points through out ehe fluff how their intentions aren't primarily focused on waging retaliatory wars against their enemies or taking instructions from some freakish mutant wearing power armor (Many imperial officers in command of the imperium think marines are tolerated mutants). So in other words if primarchs returned, and tried to regain authority in the imperium it is almost guaranteed that a civil war would erupt.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They did a lot of damage but they didn't really remove their no.1 enemy, in fact he's keeping the worst of their invasions at bay even in his very weak state.


Are you so sure they didn't remove him? In the last ten thousand years, all the Emperor has been able to do is shield the Imperium from the worst of daemonic incursions. He has not been able to lead humanity on crusades, he is no longer able to go about the works to further humanity. If the goal of chaos was to sideline the Emperor permanently, they achieved that.

Remember, making him effectively useless in his pursuits is as good as killing him for the chaos gods. Because now, with his 'ascension to godhood' you have legions of people worshiping him, making it possible to trick people into worshiping a different god without them being aware of it.




Malus Darkblade said:


> While Chaos Space Marines are a threat, I'm positive their numbers are tiny in comparison to the loyalist space marines, especially since they can't really recruit new members, obtain new gene-seed, and creating weapons is not as easy for them due to their low amount of forge-worlds.


Keep in mind that chaos marines are not limited to the traitor legions, but the unknown number of loyalist marines who have joined their numbers as well, this includes whole or remnants of chapters. There are a thousand thousand chapters founded in these last ten thousand years for the loyalist, that 'number' has never been rectified in order to take into account all of those who have been lost or fallen from grace.

Chaos marines may not have the production power as some sections of the Imperium, but they do contain forgeworlds of their own.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They did a lot of damage but they didn't really remove their no.1 enemy, in fact he's keeping the worst of their invasions at bay even in his very weak state.


While he may shield humanity from the worst depridations of Chaos in his current state, he can no longer further his goals and aspirations of challenging Chaos and his Imperium is sliding into decadence and ruin.



Malus Darkblade said:


> While Chaos Space Marines are a threat, I'm positive their numbers are tiny in comparison to the loyalist space marines, especially since they can't really recruit new members, obtain new gene-seed, and creating weapons is not as easy for them due to their low amount of forge-worlds.
> 
> Also the masters they serve are fickle and won't fork over a daemon spawn whenever the Chaos SM's/forces want them.


Indeed. But I wouldn't say their numbers are tiny in comparison to Imperial Astartes, certainly less but still a large portion in comparison.

The main weakness presented by the Traitor Astartes is not their numbers or lack of equipment though, its their chaotic nature - meaning disunity and unorganisation.



Malus Darkblade said:


> How would civil war be more likely?


I think it boils down to where the returning Primarch(s) would slot into the Imperial Hierarchy. During the Great Crusade all the Primarchs were members of the War Council, which effectively ruled the Imperium until the Council of Terra succeeded rule - Thus the Primarchs at one point directly ruled the Imperium. An example which takes this even further is Robute Guilliman who effectively single-handedly ruled the Imperium as _de facto_ High Lord post-Heresy.

Having even just one of these individuals return would cause problems to say the least for the High Lords of Terra. Would the Primarch in question attempt to usurp power to some varying degree? Even if that wasn't their/his intention he would still pose a gargantuan political threat to the High Lords, merely because of the following he would establish, and we all know the High Lords of Terra arn't very democratic and seem to be power-hungry and paranoid tyrants - and the only thing tyrants supposedly fear is losing their power.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They did a lot of damage but they didn't really remove their no.1 enemy, in fact he's keeping the worst of their invasions at bay even in his very weak state.


True, but they put him in a position where he can't challenge their dominion. And if the chaos powers didn't kill the Emperor, they put him in a position where time and the Imperium's own technological idiocy will.

[/Quote]While Chaos Space Marines are a threat, I'm positive their numbers are tiny in comparison to the loyalist space marines, especially since they can't really recruit new members, obtain new gene-seed, and creating weapons is not as easy for them due to their low amount of forge-worlds.[/Quote]
Chaos Space Marines recruit a lot of their numbers from existing space marine factions, who are just as easily tempted as anyone else. Gene-seed is probably easier to come across since I doubt CSM care too much about mutation, though I admit to knowing very little about gene-seed. As for weapons, they probably get them in the same way the orks get some of theirs . They may not have stockpiles, but I'm sure they have enough to keep everyone armed.



> Also the masters they serve are fickle and won't fork over a daemon spawn whenever the Chaos SM's/forces want them.


I'm not too sure how this works. Isn't it possible to summon lesser daemons without consulting the chaos powers? 



> I'm positive the massess would all follow him without a second thought, of course there may be a few who don't or like the old system but they would be mere thorns in the emperor's side.


You're probably right. In fact, if the Emperor did return, it's fairly certain that most of humanity. I'm just saying there's a possibility that they might not. It's a different political scene than the one the Emperor left when he "died."



> The revived emperor would probably acknowledge the imperial cult or just go through extra efforts to abolish it, and in my mind the emperor without a doubt is capable of doing it. He's not anyone, he's the founder of the entire imperium.


I don't think people would accept the abolishment of the cult. It's the one things that gives the masses hope, and so many people rely on it for power. If the Emperor tells the ecclesiarchy to stop worshipping him, that'd just make the ecclesiarchy doubt the word of the Emperor in my eyes. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think the Emperor would be stupid enough to abolish the Imperium's greatest uniting asset on principle. 



> True things always do get darker and turn for the worst since it is GW's business model for WH40k but I'm just talking about it from a fluff perspective and what would most likely occur if GW didn't dictate the terms.


I'm not talking about a business perspective. I think Murphy's Law is actually a part of the 40K universe's laws of physics .



> How would civil war be more likely?


The Emperor has the full range of charisma, abilities, and divine attributes to take and control the Imperium. The primarchs, while all intelligent and gifted in their own fields, don't have the same sort of presence the primarchs have. There would be those who support them, of course, and they may very well be in the majority. But the primarchs would want political power, the right to supercede the red tape, and they'd want it immediately. There would be governors and maybe even high lords who would want to resist for their own political power. The question is whether or not they'd do it. Even with the back of primarchs, a civil war would destroy the Imperium.



> And how would the primarchs be more susceptible to chaos taint upon their return? If anything they would be even more adept at resisting chaos's corruption.


I meant that the primarchs would be much more susceptible to corruption than the Emperor.



> I don't think reaching the 500% mark would require a feat of technology in the sense that new creations would have to emerge but rather production/assembly lines would have to be more efficient and resources would have to be diverted to the war-effort.


I don't know. Everyone in the Imperium who can work does, and they have entire planets dedicated to production. The Emperor's return would arguably mean everyone would work harder out of sheer holy fervor, but even then a 200% increase would probably be biologically impossible. To reach a 500% mark I really think the Imperium would at the very least have to rediscover their old technology, which the Emperor is probably capable of ensuring, though I doubt the primarchs are.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> I'm not too sure how this works. Isn't it possible to summon lesser daemons without consulting the chaos powers?


Well Daemons effectively act independently of their Patron god, and as 


Chaos Daemons Codex said:


> for the most part, the Chaos Gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals...


where as 


Chaos Daemons Codex said:


> ...the Daemons of Chaos lust after the mortal realm... (it is here that Daemons can dominate and destroy, conquer and corrupt, in a material universe that can be permanently changed)...for this reason, Daemons are constantly seeking egress into the realm of mortals...


Its safe to then assume that Daemons can be summoned without the consultation of the Chaos Gods. But as for Malus' point, its not only the Chaos Gods that are fickle - but Daemons as well.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well Daemons effectively act independently of their Patron god, and as
> 
> 
> where as
> ...


Does the summoning process give the sorcerer any amount of control over daemons or is it the equivalent of saying "Hey, come inside and please don't track mud on my carpet?"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe if he knows their true name he will have dominion over them.


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

I think my answer in another topic is worth salvaging here since it very much applies



> Honestly in this universe nigh on anything could happen.
> 
> The Necrons and Tyranids could win, but then again so could the Tau, the Imperium, in fact the only ones who probably have no chance of winning are the Eldar.
> 
> ...


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Who knows what will happen if the emp was resurected maybe the imperium falls emp dies but hes not reborn humanity is isolated then a human is born and does a deal with the chaos gods and....... in my opinion humans will never be vanqished completly. They will merely wax and wane in power until they control the galaxy entirely without any opposition.


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## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

I think that in a dramatic twist of irony, grots will eventually take control of the galaxy.

_Deep BREATH IN_ - The chaos gods, seeing no point in creating grots that can turn cheese into sheets of metal or that run around full of bloodlust biting humans on the ankles every time they leave the house, will eventually get bored and decide that poking Khorne with a stick is far more entertaining, who then subsequently goes on a rampage and eats the universe, thus destroying himself and the other chaos gods - _DEEP BREATH OUT_


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I bet that if the Emperor would rise from the Golden Throne, the loyal Primarches that just disapered would all come back and a man like Sebastian Thor or Lord Solar Macharius would be born again, the galaxy would soon be under Imperial Control. The Chaos gods would be all like _"Shit! That human known as the Emperor knows where I live! Time to run!"_ and the aliens such as the Tau would be all like _"Peace man"_ then they just die for looking at the Emperor. Lets face it, the Imperium could start a crusade to destroy the Tau Empire, the Ordo Xenos would make some kind of Virus that would kill Tyranid Bio ships, the eldar would just die for some stupid reason, and the necrons get tired. The Emperor would tell the Orks that in that galaxy over there, there is a lot of things to kill...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I gotta ask, what makes people think that if the Emperor's injuries magically healed that he would be getting up off the golden throne? I mean, last I checked, he sat on the damned thing to keep the breach in the Imperial webway closed, preventing hordes of daemons from pouring out into the heart of the palace itself. (When he left to confront Horus, Malcador took his place on the throne for a reason after all.)

Seeing as he is currently the only psyker of his kind, he can't get off the throne without compromising the center of his empire and damning it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Damn good point. If he resurrects then unless he returns to the same body, where the only difference is that he'd be able to talk really, humanity is screwed because that rift leading into the Imperial Dungeons is going to open right up and the Chaos Daemons will do in days what all the Traitor Legions have never come close to doing.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I thought the Emperor was still able to speak, he has just not said anything for a very very long time. Last I remember reading that was the case anyway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Not sure about that one _Darkreever_, the Collected Visions for example ends with the phrase 'And he spoke no more'.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well we don't know what he would be capable of if he became a god, it is possible that he would be able to close the rift from the warp. I have asked this before but since my question was never answered I will ask it again, if the emperor were to become a warp god could he not create warp minions of his own?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I was under the impression Emperor could only make his will known through the tarot. It'd seem rather silly for everyone to use cards when they could just go up, smack the bugger, and ask him what's what.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't think he would otherwise we would see rampant changes in how the imperium runs, unless of course he accepts everything as it is.

The whole tarot thing, I've never been too keen on the idea.

I prefer the idea that his body is just a tool used to keep the astromician up and running and closing up the hole in the webway while his diminished consciousnesses is resting in a plane in the warp that no one can access/communicate with.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Well we don't know what he would be capable of if he became a god, it is possible that he would be able to close the rift from the warp. I have asked this before but since my question was never answered I will ask it again, if the emperor were to become a warp god could he not create warp minions of his own?


You mean if he was somehow reborn into the born after his physical body completely dying/Golden Throne failing? (using the term 'god' doesn't help at all at this point).

Doubtful at best I would imagine. In fact its Doubtful that he will even be reborn in the Warp at all. 

Could he create warp minions of his own? If he became a fully-fledged Warp entitiy I see no reason why not, after all its just splitting part of your consciousness.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I prefer the idea that his body is just a tool used to keep the astromician up and running and closing up the hole in the webway while his diminished consciousnesses is resting in a plane in the warp that no one can access/communicate with.


Aye, I agree.


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

I thought the Illuminati planned to find all the Sensei and sacrifice them to the Emperor so he would be physically reborn.


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