# regular csm??(no selected god)



## duffster624 (Apr 1, 2008)

so after playing nurgle, i have decided that i want to try out a regular csm army..i just really dont like how much cult troops cost....i would use icons of chaos glory mostly ...i was wondering if this would be a good idea or bad idea


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

If you're just using squads of 10 or less, then IoCG is probably best, the others are pretty expensive, only IoK might be of use for small squads, and IoS has only limited effect against most opponents. The other marks, IoT and IoN are so expensive that its only worth taking them if you have units of at least 15-20 guys, and even then a vindicare assassin or Tellion will be able to make him dead very quickly.

It's more than possible to make an undivided army without cult troops, but cult troops are usually better value over all, despite their cost, and they can fill vital roles in an army. Anyway, post up a list, and we'll see how it looks


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

The standard marines are good, but the cult troops are just plain better. that's what you are trying to get out of us, yeah?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

duffster624 said:


> so after playing nurgle, i have decided that i want to try out a regular csm army..i just really dont like how much cult troops cost....i would use icons of chaos glory mostly ...i was wondering if this would be a good idea or bad idea


Cult troops are better.
Fun and fluff=Vanillas
Competitive=Zerks, PMs.

I know you desperately want to try something new with deep-striking demonic hordes, or fearful terminators while you artfully reroll your leadership saves...but it doesn't work like that lol.


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## tony161 (Jan 27, 2009)

Regular CSM with an icon of glory are good. For starters thee cheaper, tend not to draw as much fire power, and can iterchange. However nurgle is good allround, being able to stand longer in CC and a fire fight. So make a list, and with left over points, then take marks. As long as you keep versitile u'll be find.`


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Remember guys, only army lists belong in the army list section.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

tony161 said:


> Regular CSM with an icon of glory are good. For starters thee cheaper, tend not to draw as much fire power, and can iterchange. However nurgle is good allround, being able to stand longer in CC and a fire fight. So make a list, and with left over points, then take marks. As long as you keep versitile u'll be find.`


You're the same guy who said autocannons were the best weapon ever. Get outta here. Hahaha.

Make a list, ignore the crappy vanilla marines(I could buy one squad of cult troops who are just BETTER or two cruddy marines squads who will not fight as well, as hard, or stay on the board.

Buy one good car or five bad ones.

If you need to rely on the reroll for morale, you'd most likely already effed as leadership ten shouldn't fail you that often. You'd be better off spending the points not getting them killed(Mark of tzeentch) or on GOOD troop choices(Zerks with a rhino, plague marines, etc)

Cheap=/=better.


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## xinua (Jul 2, 2008)

Only real use of vanilla marines as I see it is when I play with Fabius Bile! else cult troops are just too good to ignore..


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

there is nothing wrong with using basic chaos marines, for there cost there very effective, better than basic marines and anything else any race has as basic troops, sure some of the cult troops are a *TINY* bit better, but not by much to make a massive difference or to condone paying a high pts cost to use them.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> there is nothing wrong with using basic chaos marines, for there cost there very effective, better than basic marines and anything else any race has as basic troops, sure some of the cult troops are a *TINY* bit better, but not by much to make a massive difference or to condone paying a high pts cost to use them.


Hey, play me a bunch of times with you using vanilla marines and me using cult marines and see what happens.

Every single type of cult marine will out perform regular marines point for point. You could make the case for Berserkers slaughtering them in Melee, Plague doubling their lifespan, emporers children crushing them with huge amounts of shots, or for obvious reasons, Tsons slaughtering them in 1-2 turns with AP 3 weapons.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> there is nothing wrong with using basic chaos marines, for there cost there very effective, better than basic marines and anything else any race has as basic troops, sure some of the cult troops are a *TINY* bit better, but not by much to make a massive difference or to condone paying a high pts cost to use them.


Tiny bit better? Try fearless and uber marks that don't go away when the icon bearer dies.

No, regular chaos space marines are NOT GOOD. They are inferior to templar squads, inferior to ork mobz, every type of cult unit, inferior to wyches, and even nob bikers, sterngaurd(when they count as scoring), and even the regular space marine squad.

If they could drop pod, they'd outperform the loyalists everytime, but with leadership 9-10 and no way of becoming fearless without that HORRENDOUS hq fabius bile, they can stay on the conversion rack.

Oh boy! Frag/krak grenades and bolter/bp/ccw, joyeous occasion!

Well the frag doesn't make a bit of difference if you're a canny enough player. Krak grenades? Who uses them?

Sadly the bolter combo idea is fantastic, but costs too much when they don't win fights.

They will lose against the loyalists/tsons/PMs/orks/dire avengers/sternguard in a shooting match
And lose against Zerks/PMs/emp kids/nob bikers/wyches in close combat.

And it's not even the price tag that kills them, it's the price tag on every single piece of wargear they have. Champs cost as much as a marine with only a single point of leadership and an extra attack more? Awesome. Icons are RAGINGLY expensive and generally useless(When you run off the board, waving a funny banner won't usually help you) I realize that GW was trying to get things all on the same page...but having one additional CC attack in melee just does not cut it these days when everything else is fearless/won't die.

I've never seen a GT list that seriously uses undivided marines. I'm not saying it can't be done, but they aren't as good as the cult troops, and unless you have five that sit on an objective, you're wasting precious cult points.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Okay, my thoughts on vanilla CSM's is this...

...leave them on the shelf until the next codex comes out (whenever that may be) and see if they suck less then. :wink:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Eleven said:


> Hey, play me a bunch of times with you using vanilla marines and me using cult marines and see what happens.


and what happens would be completely random, you can have all the marks in the world, and all the cult rules you like, in a game of random dice Nurgle marines can die just as if not easier than guardsmen.

due to that randomness cult marines are only and will only ever be a tiny bit better


LordWaffles said:


> Tiny bit better? Try fearless and uber marks that don't go away when the icon bearer dies.


fearless is not always a good thing, and killing icon bearers in a 10 man unit is VERY hard, sure telion and vindicares help, but getting 10 wounds on a marine unit is very difficult for any army to do with 1 unit


LordWaffles said:


> If they could drop pod, they'd outperform the loyalists everytime, but with leadership 9-10 and no way of becoming fearless without that HORRENDOUS hq fabius bile, they can stay on the conversion rack.


a LD of 10 is more than enough to hold ground a large percent of the time


LordWaffles said:


> Oh boy! Frag/krak grenades and bolter/bp/ccw, joyeous occasion!
> 
> Well the frag doesn't make a bit of difference if you're a canny enough player. Krak grenades? Who uses them?


I do, str6 against vehicles vs str 4 basic, if your retarded you can chose not to use them I suppose, but there a huge help

some people think FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too competitively for a game of toy soldiers


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> and what happens would be completely random, you can have all the marks in the world, and all the cult rules you like, in a game of random dice Nurgle marines can die just as if not easier than guardsmen.


But nurgle marines will statistically survive more. That's...that's kind of the idea behind rolling dice and having stats...



Stella Cadente said:


> fearless is not always a good thing, and killing icon bearers in a 10 man unit is VERY hard, sure telion and vindicares help, but getting 10 wounds on a marine unit is very difficult for any army to do with 1 unit


Whereas the odds of killing the icon bearer for cult marines is non-existant.



Stella Cadente said:


> a LD of 10 is more than enough to hold ground a large percent of the time


Until you lose five in a combat phase against any wargear of your choosing(Nobs, banshees, etc)



Stella Cadente said:


> I do, str6 against vehicles vs str 4 basic, if your retarded you can chose not to use them I suppose, but there a huge help


What the hell are your obliterators for? 
If you're using cult marine squads to flip vehicles with crappy grenades, something in the plan went wrong.

It's a great way to waste time throwing dice I suppose. Personally I'd rather buy them a powerfist and do something useful, but to each his own.

Plus...I'd rather have legion traits and no grenades.



Stella Cadente said:


> some people think FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too competitively for a game of toy soldiers


And some people don't think much at all.





Wraithian said:


> Okay, my thoughts on vanilla CSM's is this...
> 
> ...leave them on the shelf until the next codex comes out (whenever that may be) and see if they suck less then. :wink:


Wraithian's got it.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> and what happens would be completely random, you can have all the marks in the world, and all the cult rules you like, in a game of random dice Nurgle marines can die just as if not easier than guardsmen.


Yeah, they can. But odds are they won't, especially over the course of several games.



> due to that randomness cult marines are only and will only ever be a tiny bit better


Sorry, that's kinda wrong.



> fearless is not always a good thing, and killing icon bearers in a 10 man unit is VERY hard, sure telion and vindicares help, but getting 10 wounds on a marine unit is very difficult for any army to do with 1 unit


Not really, no. Besides, who said anything about doing it with one unit? If you were to lose say two or three models first, suddenly it becomes an awful lot more likely that the Icon bearer's going to get sniped.



> a LD of 10 is more than enough to hold ground a large percent of the time


For morale tests caused from shooting or something, yes, I agree, especially with the reroll from the Icon of Chaos Glory. Usually though most morale checks are made in close combat, and with hefty modifiers.



> I do, str6 against vehicles vs str 4 basic, if your retarded you can chose not to use them I suppose, but there a huge help


Your opponent would have to be a tad retarded themselves to move a tank that close to a unit that he knows is packing krak grenades.



> some people think FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too competitively for a game of toy soldiers


The topic at hand is: What's better, normal Chaos Marines or Cult troops? That sort of implies that the person asking the question is doing some from a competitive standpoint, otherwise he'd be asking what's cheaper to buy, or more fun to paint, or whatever.

Your entire attitude about how everyone else is too competitive is crap. It's just an excuse that you can use whenever you're on the losing end of an argument. You know that you're unable to "win" a debate and convince people that normal Chaos Marines are better, so you resort to trying to look like the bigger man by just walking away. :laugh:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LordWaffles said:


> What the hell are your obliterators for?


I'd rather have more marines with krak grenades than spend £12 for a model that looks as fugly as you can get


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Ill tell you whos better.

Khorne Bezerkers.

Why you ask?

Cause for $30 USD you get 12 instead of 10 Vanilla CSM for $35.

Makes perfect sense to me.

but don't listen to me. I play IG, and have know idea of what these so called 'grenades' 'autocannons' 'LD10' and this 'AP' things you people are talking about


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

comrade said:


> I play IG, and have know idea of what these so called 'grenades' 'autocannons' 'LD10' and this 'AP' things you people are talking about


But when it comes to flashlights, your the man to talk to right?

IMO Vanilla marines are there too capture objectives sitting in you DZ throughout the entire game, other than that, a waste of points.

peace out:victory:


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

I think you all are forgetting one thing though, yes pm holds objectives better, but when your opponents got his hands full dealing with your cult troops charging, and you need a unit to just hold your home objectives, basic csm are quite effective, they are capable of greater firepower then pm (with heavy weps), and with the cult troops drawing all the fire, they don't need the survivability of pm, not only that, but their lower point cost allows you to take more cult troops on the offensive. So as a result I always take a unit or two to sit on home objectives. If your asking if a whole army of basic csm is good then the answer is most definitely no, but 1-2 units are quite a good investment I find.

EDIT: didn't look at second page lol, spannerz said it pretty right.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

I'd rather put a squad of noise marines with a blastmaster on the objective in my deployment zone. Far better at putting out long range fire than regular CSM.

Sure you're paying 140 points, but for that you get a S8, AP3 blast template that inflicts pinning and shoots 48". What can vanilla CSM get to compare? A lascannon? meh - one wound per round. A rocket launcher? meh - krak = one wound per round, frag = ? not worth mentioning.

But I play an emperor's children warband. All my troops are cultist. I made the switch after several games where my 10-man CSM squads were reduced to their champion, icon bearer & 2 special weapons marines & then proceeded to run off the table because chaos can't rally.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I wouldn't say that this was as completely one-sided as some are making out. Personally I do tend to use zerkers and other cult troops, but not everyone is the same and not all opponents are.

A basic CSM is quite a useful and versatile guy. Unlike a tactical marine, having 2 attacks in cc makes him able to compete with enemy troops choices on a roughly even point for point basis. The ability to have 2 special weps in a 10 man squad is also quite useful. You can get a squad of 10 with 2 special weps in a rhino for around 200 points, and it's not a joke unit that is only going to work in "fun" lists.

I'm not sure I get why people are talking about krak grenades. Everyone apart from Tsons gets them. They do mean that you don't absolutely need a power fist in your squad though, because 10 krak grenades tends to put a dent in most things.

I'm not trying to say that basic CSM are great. The current metagame favours zerkers and obliterators because they work well with lash. I'm less of a fan of plague marines though, because each one costs 50% more than a basic csm, for protection which only works some of the time. Plague marines die just as easily to plasma spam as imperial guard.


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

Normal CSM can be great, but unless your playing an army with no gods or whatever cult troops are better, but i must say some people make a good point that in point to point vsing other armies normal CSM do well.


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## Timesplitter (Oct 11, 2008)

Just recently at a tourney, there was a CSM player who wanted to try to make an army surrounding reg CSM and not cult troops. I don't know exact details, but I know he had 2x Squads of 18 and 3x squads of 10 in Rhino's + MoT prince and some Havocs. I believe he also had a squad of Raptors.

I was surprised that his list did well, he lost his last game (went down to the final turn) so he finished 7th out of 28 with a 2-1-0 record.


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## ChrisW (Jan 21, 2009)

the basic CSM is one of the better troop types in the game. the cult troops are just the extra icing.

i usually have 4 squads of 10 in rhinos as a base start for any list. of course you don't give them heavy weapons.... havoks and oblits are your heavy weapon troopers. or a great cheap pred for horde backup.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I'd rather have more marines with krak grenades than spend £12 for a model that looks as fugly as you can get












What'd you say ******?


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## Untitled401 (May 12, 2008)

Vanilla CSM are waaaay better than Space Marines, I dont know why people are bitching about them. I mean they cost the same but CSM have slightly more war gear and a slightly better stat line FOR THE SAME COST. If a computer store sells 2 computers; computer 'A' and computer 'B' both are the same brand, have the same hardware/software and the same price but computer 'B' offers a free mouse and keyboard. You would buy computer 'B'. So what if CSM are only slightly better than a Space Marine, at the end of the day they are still slightly better. 

Now to the topic at hand. Cult troops are more expensive because THEY ARE better than Vanilla stats wise and rules wise. Experienced players go for what is better because thats logical, not necessarily because they like them better or for fluff purposes they chose them (although a lot of experienced players also like fluff so its a bonus). When you come into the hobby, what is your goal? your objective? 

Are you an artist? someone who buys the models for aesthetic reasons.
Or...
Are you a gamer? someone who enjoys playing the game.

Those are the two types of people in this hobby and within those there are sub-categories for each such as a painter is an artist, a sculpter is an artist and you can be one or both or other types. With gamers you have people who play for the fun of the game or people who play for the competitive nature and want to win or other types. 

So to answer the original poster's question. If you like to play for fun, go with whatever models you think are cool. Whether its Vanilla or Cult troops or both, it doesnt matter. But if you are competitive and want to win then go with strictly cult troops.



Something along those lines is all that is needed to be said. There is no reason to flame each other. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you feel that someone else is wrong, there is no need to go around attacking others because they do not think the same way as you. No one here created 40k (not to my knowledge anyways) so you have no right to say that person is totally wrong and judge that person. Maybe some people cant help being a jerk because that is in their nature but this website does not want to promote negativity among its members i dont think. If you have strong opinions then enlighten others without having to insult them.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

The main issue seems to be whether we compare 'Nilla CSM to other armies or to the Cultist squads. Since taking guardsmen, Tactical Squads and Boyz are not even an option for the Chaos player, the latter seems to make more sense to me.

Noise marines are expensive as hell, but after getting used to sonic weapons and I 5, it is damn hard to go back to rapid fire bolters and CCing MEq at the same initiative. The only time I bring vanilla CSM is to babysit an objective in my deployment zone.


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## duffster624 (Apr 1, 2008)

i was thinking the advantage of reg csm would be ...more of them...for a 10 man squad of plague marines is 230 points without any upgrades...and a reg csm squad of 10 is 150 points without upgrades...i know reg csm will die quicker but there will probably be alot more of them...and they are alot better then regular space marines because they have all the extra wargear


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Generally it is always handy to have a nice, cheep, fairly effective unit, that can be used to hold objectives. Yeah those cult marines may cost 200+ points, but those CSM can hold objectives nearly as good, they just are not specialized for any particular role.

Besides, against horde armies, it is sometimes better to simply have more bullets flying.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

mrrshann618 said:


> Generally it is always handy to have a nice, cheep, fairly effective unit, that can be used to hold objectives. Yeah those cult marines may cost 200+ points, but those CSM can hold objectives nearly as good, they just are not specialized for any particular role.
> 
> Besides, against horde armies, it is sometimes better to simply have more bullets flying.


Actually against hordes it's better to have cult marines for the sole reason hordes don't do crap to plague marines(Whereas they murder nillas), and nillas don't harm hordes, while zerks rampage through melee, and slaaneshi boyz rain fire down.

I admit they're alright to hold an objective, but those five guys are still useless against anything that infiltrates in, whereas a six-seven man plague marine squad would krump them good.

And Untitled you forget that the computer store must inform the customers that the 'better' computer will RUN THE FUCK OUTSIDE AT THE SLIGHTEST PROVACATION AND NEVER COME BACK, whereas the lesser equipped computer will possibly take a jog out, than walk right back in regaurdless of how broken it is.

And I don't mind how people HAVE to use plasma(Or equivalent) to take out plague marines. That's less plasma that goes into the obliterators, princes, and rhinos full of zerks.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

duffster624 said:


> i was thinking the advantage of reg csm would be ...more of them...for a 10 man squad of plague marines is 230 points without any upgrades...and a reg csm squad of 10 is 150 points without upgrades...i know reg csm will die quicker but there will probably be alot more of them...and they are alot better then regular space marines because they have all the extra wargear


Remember, not only will the regular CSM die quicker, they'll also break & run from CC. Get them below 50% and they'll run 48" across the board. That means that the individual models die quicker AND you have to kill less of them.

Stick your vanilla CSM into close combat against any unit and you will lose more of them than you will plague marines - this means you're more likely to lose combat with the nilla's & force that leadership check. Now sure - you may only lose combat by one or two, but on leadership 9 (you compared naked troops with no champions) that means you're going to fail your check a significant portion of the time. Against MEQ's you can expect to then be swept 50% of the time - that will never happen with cultists. They fight down to the last man.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

While that's true, it's not all one way traffic with the plague marines. They have a lower initiative than vanilla guys and they only hit as hard as a single csm. They may take less wounds but they also do less wounds.

The problem with FNP is that it can by bypassed. You get hit by this rending attack, that instant death weapon or whatever, and the 8 points you spent on upgrading to a plague marine does nothing. The vanilla guy would die as well of course, but his mate wouldn't. Initiative 4 power weapons can be a big problem for plague marines, especially things like lightning claws or nemesis force weps.

It's quite difficult to kill enough of a vanilla squad to make them break automatically. Realistically, if you have inflicted that kind of margin of victory on a unit then most of them are dead anyway, or possibly they are in combat with something they can't hurt like a wraithlord. In that case there's actually not much difference between fleeing and maybe being wiped out or staying in cc and definitely being wiped out.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Yes it's true that the FNP won't save them against power weapons - but it will help save them against the remainder of the squad. So will the T5 which means that even the PW isn't wounding on 4's (banshee's are now wounding on 6's...)

so with meqs rather than needing a 4+ / 4+ / 2- for vanilla marines to cause a casualty you're looking at a 4+ / 5+ / 2- / 3-...

obviously power weapons and fists aside. And that's just comparing plague marines.

Noise marines can "rapid fire their bolters" and then assault striking before their 'nilla counterparts. Meaning that instead of 4 S4 shots they're getting 5 S4 shots - and those first two hit on 3's, where only one of the 'nilla's do.

'Zerkers obviously shine in the assault phase and outstrip their 'nilla buddies, and so what if they can't shoot? chaos marines are meant to assault - they're good at it. It's what separates them from their loyalist bretheren... that and not having ATSKNF...

The ONLY advantage to having 'nilla marines over cult troops is the ability to take meltaguns / flamers / plasma guns (and I would advise taking melta's over plasma's 9 times out of 10...)


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Alright. I am just getting in on this because all I play now is DG because imo they are the best Marines.

First off in regards to the initial question:
Vanilla Marines are O.K. They way I see it is you can take 2 squads for the price of one Marked Squad. This simply means they can sit back and shoot / hold objectives and have more Elites, Fast attack, and Heavy support dealing with pushing / holding the enemy at bay. Ideally Vanilla Marines are not looking to get into hand to hand.

Now there is NO WAY vanilla marines are better in any way / shape / form but given the role in the army they can do their job quite easily.

Now Someone said something about the DG being worse in CC then Vanilla marines which is False. They are Identical, They both have 1 attack base + 1 for pistol and CC weapon and +1 if charging. The only difference is DG can stand in cover, double tap AND GET ASSAULTED then have just as good of a chance at living and winning combat if not at least 25% better because of Blight Grenades and FNP.

Another said something along the lines of the only reason Vanilla Marines are better is because they are able to use Melta, Plasma, and Flamers... well DG can Take all those options. Its only the rest of the Cult troops that unable to do so.

All in all the only reason I would take Vanilla Marines over the DG would be to save points in my troop choices to allow for more heavy hitting squads. But because of 5th edition Troops are important and need to stick around soooooo I am always willing to pay the extra points to make my squads stick around that much longer.

As for the Gent that does not understand why this dispute is up for discussion because SPACE MARINES are worse then Vanilla marines.... well its simple... SPACE MARINES have nothing to do with the discussion.

Chaosftw


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Chaosftw said:


> Now Someone said something about the DG being worse in CC then Vanilla marines which is False. They are Identical, They both have 1 attack base + 1 for pistol and CC weapon and +1 if charging. The only difference is DG can stand in cover, double tap AND GET ASSAULTED then have just as good of a chance at living and winning combat if not at least 25% better because of Blight Grenades and FNP.
> 
> Another said something along the lines of the only reason Vanilla Marines are better is because they are able to use Melta, Plasma, and Flamers... well DG can Take all those options. Its only the rest of the Cult troops that unable to do so.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the DG initiative, though. However, lower initiative is definately countered by the higher toughness as well as the feel no pain. I see no need to take 'nilla CSM squads with the choices we have in cult troops. Yes, they are more expensive, but most definately follow the idea of, "you get what you pay for." Hence, why I always give my terminators with lightning claws the Mark of Slaanesh--that one point in initiative can make all the difference when facing armies of I4.

Even CSM ability to take meltas or plasmas isn't that great. DG can take them, too. Thousand Sons have AP3 bolters and a sorcerer in the squad. Noise Marines have better weapons than bolters, plus the blastmaster. Berzerkers can take plasma pistols (I've found it's worth taking 2 in the squad and one on the champ for the attempt to crack a rhino so as to assault the squishy stuff inside of it), and generally don't need much more as they are so very (obviously) assault oriented.

People say that fearless isn't a good thing. I don't entirely agree. While fearless can have drawbacks, I don't see them nearly as bad as losing more than 50% of a squad and having that squad running away for the rest of the game. I'd much rather stand and fight to the last man than have a squad run off the board.

As for the standard marines vs chaos marines, I still see loyalists as better. Sure, we get an extra attack, but that's pretty paultry when we look at combat squadding, free/near free weaponry, marks of chaos vs combat tactics, and (my biggest one) loyalist's ability to regroup if under 50%. But, I do believe this topic is for another thread.


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