# State of the Game



## sleepcascade (Feb 4, 2011)

Hello all, new to this forum as I've been away from the game for a while. I have a pretty rich history with Warhammer 40k (if i may say so myself haha), starting playing the games about 8 years ago, collected a humongous chaos army, a 2500 pt Nid army, and about 1500 Dark Eldar army that I've been dying to finish. 

The last few years I've been on and off but lets just say I came out of my prime glory days of 40k about 4 and a half years ago. Before this I was in RTT's regularly and doing pretty well, and it was all me and my friends would do. I loved it, still do. But, Im a musician and I study hard so that explains my time away from the game. I was still in love with the game and I would get periodic games in but nothing close to the dedication I once had. 

Thats when my buddy called me up and enticed me to play in a new tournament called the 'Ard Boyz tournament. I said "Damn right! Its been way too long!" I put together a killer list with my chaos 4th edition codex (the one before the current one). I loved Nids and Dark Eldar are probably most fun army to play, but Chaos were my bread and butter, I had them down. Long story short I placed in 1st place and my buddy placed in 2nd place and we ended up going to Philly for 2nd round. I was pumped! I still had it, I was back in the game just like that! Hahah...lots of fun.

Now heres where I started to get turned off. First off, let me say, I know that $$$CashMoney$$$ has always been GW's top priority. Im not trying to insult anyone but it was always a running joke between me and my friends on how much we were getting "ripped off" by GW and we were just fiends that would do anything to buy an overpriced piece of plastic. Don't get me wrong, we loved the game, but when your 14 years old and your working a 6.50 an hour job and you want to build an army, the prices get frustrating. I dont want this to be the heart of my story though, so... anyway, long story short:

They released the new chaos codex that week and within two weeks I had to adjust to an entirely different codex and use it in the 2nd round. There was absolutely no grace period. I was the only one (aside from other Chaos players) who had to actually CHANGE THEIR LIST mid-tournament. I had very little time to test the lists (2500 pts), and it was a very different codex, I did the best I could. I guess their mindset was, if we don't make them use it now, theyll never buy it. Seems silly. That just turned me off, the fact that they couldn't let me use the same codex in the same tournament, it speaks volumes of the company behind it all. Not only that but I was depressed:
The chaos codex was the most vanilla, generic, quick-fix throw a list together codex I had seen thus far. The reason I loved chaos was the options, the myriad of lists that were possible. The freedom! (im trying to be as brief as possible) It was a polar opposite. It was then I started to lose a little more interest.

More time passed and I play less and less though I always have the itch. From word of mouth I had heard that with every new codex they were getting more and more vanilla and to be short, it seemed like they were aiming the game at a younger audience. Some of my hardcore gaming friends were completely disillusioned with the game and where it was going. They went to other games. I've played a few games with 5th edition rules, but nobody knew them too well and we employed a lot of house rules. The literal line of sight rules for terrain baffle me! Other rules seemed like an improvement, some seemed like it was dumbing down the game, but most of all, it seemed they were releasing more and more crap and an entire new edition as a hook. ($$$) What happened to Chapter approved?!?! I should also add that it seemed each new codex was the beefiest toughest army, and it was the army to play in tournaments.

Im not here to complain and conspire about GW, I know I may sound bitter but I will admit I'm disappointed with some aspects of where the game went. I would really like to play in a tournament again with a full Dark Eldar Army, but Im weary to learning new rules if it seems like the game is aimed at a younger audience, and the line of sight rules seem to make the game so tedious. 

Basically, I just want to see from some of the old-time gamers who have been around for a while, whats your take on the current state of the game? Is it vanilla as it seems? Remember, I am more of an outsider nowadays than in the past, so maybe Im out of the loop. Maybe I should focus more on Fantasy? (Which I'd love to do, fantasy is definitely the better game, but I know 40k so well that its easier to jump back in to and be able to dedicate only a little bit of time since I am a full time student) Also, how is the new dark eldar codex? I was in love with the last one, the only thing that needed change was making units like mandrakes and hellions etc, who were virtually ineffective, relevant again. Did they take what needed to be only a slight revision and do a complete 360 with it? (ala chaos)

Thanks a ton for reading this whole post! I know I may sound a bit cynical but its just my honest point of view coming from a person who truly loves the game. All opinions are welcome so long as they are sincere, thanks again!


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

sleepcascade said:


> Hello all, new to this forum as I've been away from the game for a while. I have a pretty rich history with Warhammer 40k (if i may say so myself haha), starting playing the games about 8 years ago, collected a humongous chaos army, a 2500 pt Nid army, and about 1500 Dark Eldar army that I've been dying to finish.
> 
> The last few years I've been on and off but lets just say I came out of my prime glory days of 40k about 4 and a half years ago. Before this I was in RTT's regularly and doing pretty well, and it was all me and my friends would do. I loved it, still do. But, Im a musician and I study hard so that explains my time away from the game. I was still in love with the game and I would get periodic games in but nothing close to the dedication I once had.
> 
> ...


That was a long read with not a lot said in it, lol. But aside from that, I have heard tons of people say they hate true LoS, and I just don't get it. I like actually looking from the perspective of the model and seeing what it can hit.

Aside from that, just about everyone is on board with the CSM codex and how it was a downgrade. I think that you are just super jaded because you have the CSM codex which is one of the biggest bumfuckeries.

I think you will like the new DE codex alot, give it a try.

I don't know how old you are and what you consider a younger audience, but I think the game is doing fine right now and i'm 24. Aside from that pretty much all game companies are trying to make their games simpler. I tend to believe that influence comes from the success of wow and is trying to capture wow players. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you.

I feel that this is a hobby and as such, I shouldn't have to study it all the time to understand it so some simplification is good. This is not so much for me as I will be a nerd and study everything anyways, but for my friends and most warhammer plaers in general that want to be able to play and not have a read forums and study codexes for hours. So simplification is good, provided that it gets and keeps more people in the game. If it actually begins chasing people away from the game, then screw it.


Also, I don't necessarily think that simplification will cause a younger audience to play the game. Kids are able to figure complex shit out. Kids are great with computers. Kids play dnd and that is way more complex than warhammer.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

40k got really good, then went downhill.

That's the basic view of most long-term players.

As soon as Matt ward is sacked/killed, things will go up again.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

I think it has become too much about the rules, and not enough about the hobby. I've been playing for 10 years now, I got into the game when I was 11, and was still doing chores around the house to earn money for more minis (which I then ruined with the wrong primers and way too much caked on paint). I think within the last few years, rules have become a priority - the atmosphere seems to become much more competative, and taken much too seriously. The hobby that grabbed me by the nuts 10 years ago was a means of escape, where it was just as much fun to collect and build the army as it was to play. Where before GW was the place to hang out and bullshit with the employees or play a fun game for a few hours, now its a lot of arguing and "win at all costs" players who care more for the rules than anything else.


Anyways, thats my answer to your question on what my take on the game is. This is precisely why I've stated in previous threads that I don't understand all the bitching and moaning about codexes being shit - find a way around it, mould your army the way you choose, use counts-as units, etc. Its YOUR hobby, you get to play it how you want. It may not be that way in tournaments, but its more fun in a non-competative setting in my opinion.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Angelus Censura said:


> Anyways, thats my answer to your question on what my take on the game is. This is precisely why I've stated in previous threads that I don't understand all the bitching and moaning about codexes being shit - find a way around it, mould your army the way you choose, use counts-as units, etc. Its YOUR hobby, you get to play it how you want. It may not be that way in tournaments, but its more fun in a non-competative setting in my opinion.


Hell yeah. Though I am sometimes irritated by the fail in many codexes, this is the spirit, imo. I like the way you think pally.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

when I first started getting into 40k I was only 8 (so thats 14yrs ago), and at the time I obviously didn't really play the game, to me it was all about the models and atmosphere, I used to go down to shrewsbury every single weekend and spend my pocket money, watching people play and just enjoy the place as an innocent child.

in 1999 when I was 11 battlefleet gothic and merry hill GW arrived and I started gaming, these were the golden days of GW for me, everything was about the hobby, everything was about enjoyment and fun, I was hooked and spent all my money on this game then I was introduced to 3rd edition 40k and at that I was hooked by 2 amazing game systems, money flying left right and centre, affordable toys, great rules, friendly staff (especially one bloke who was the manager in merry hill, he was brilliant, but his name escapes me) open minded players, all was perfect.

in 2004 and the age of 16 this perfection ended, BFG by this point was long dead and missed by many, 4th edition came out for 40k and models were no longer as affordable as they once were to me, the rules started to feel bland for 4th and the extras added nothing to the game, my addiction started to wonder, my wallet stayed shut inside GW's, the friendly staff were now less friendly and seemed to change every time I went in, apart from a few (phil GW wolverhampton was awesome), players also changed, gone were the days of rules being solved by the roll of a dice or common sense and logic, the days of the RAW player were starting to raise there disgusting heads, by 2006 I ceased playing 40k, no longer wanting to be part of what was happening and feeling left out by GW like my 7yrs of loyalty and money were worth nothing to them.

2008 now arrived as did being 20 and so arrived 5th edition, to me the death of 40k, this was the final nail in the coffin, 40k was no longer about fun and friendly gaming, this was the time of the competetive gamer, the gamers who spoiled and ruined every rule they could, the gamers who enjoyed beating up children to inflate there egos, friendly staff were now a thing of the past, they no longer remembered your face, just your wallet, and as for your wallet entering a GW now guaranteed leaving with an empty wallet or with empty hands and a frown.

I wandered to other systems hoping for improvement, warmachine offered the same as what GW had become, WWII gaming took over my time, axis and allies, war at sea, DH7, happiness yes, but no GW involved anywhere.

2011 now, and the game really is a shambles, the players are all assholes, the staff are ignorant jerks, the prices are illegal, the quality is boring, the rules are bland and unimaginative, power/codex creep increases with every release and the whole atmosphere is uninviting and unfriendly especially towards veterans.

simply put, the state of the game today, is an unwelcoming complete mess, because of GW policies, and players ruining the atmosphere.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Welcome to the boards! Kudos for investing the time to write such a long introduction.

After reading a number of posts similar to this one. And I suppose addressing my own similar feelings over other posts, I think that many gamers see the hobby as it relates to the arc of their own personal story.

I started playing before 2nd edition came out and for me the glory days were all during second ed. So from my point of view at all went down hill when 3rd ed came out.

I mention this because, it seems like there is a preponderance of players who cite the selfsame arc to their gaming careers regardless of when they started playing. And I rather suspect that our relationship to the hobby and the 'state of the game' has a lot more to do with the system we got to know and love the best, and therefore measure all the newer iterations against. 

GW did simplify the game to appeal to a wider audience. but in many ways simple isn't worse, its just faster. Thankfully they reversed course on the simplification of the fluff and models - think Slaaneshi daemons - GW can hardly make a daemons of perversity and sexual excess appropriate for a 10 year old.

I think I'd be happy if they just brought back saving throw modifiers. I find the the AP/ Power Weapon system too rock/paper/scissors. The background is as rich as ever, probably more so.


All that said, spend some time here and you'll see a lot of the same gripes over and over, but you'll also find out how vibrant the gamer community here is - and that's why we stick around.

Cheers,
Kreuger

edit- p.s. - If it's the cash that still causes you issues - take more time to paint your models thus buying less, and when you do buy shop around on ebay and from online retailers. Usually you can save yourself some money if you are willing to strip paint off old models, trade, convert, or just be patient for a good deal.


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## Harland (Jan 24, 2011)

I think true LOS is a good idea.
But I've only played a couple of 40K games, so I'm not an expert.
However I have played a lot of Fantasy.
I think that fantasy is a better game because:

The lists in Fantasy are have so many more possibilities, through things like Magic Items.
The characters play a far larger part
There is actually a large range of armies
No one army is played hugely more than the rest
The armies are more or less balanced!*
*This is not including DoC. Very Cheesey (apparently). However, I've never played them, so don't take my word for it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Harland.

The rules in fantasy prevent 'Herohammer' unless you spend a vast amount of points on say, Archaon.
40k I believe was in a state of Herohammer in 3rd. Hive Tyrants, Daemon princes and single elite squads (aka terminators, incubi and the like) would break the back of an army.
If GW have got one thing right recently, it's this.

Stella has pretty much described the current atmosphere of GW gamestores and interests. I used to visit my GW a lot (pboro), but now no more. 

I have an army. I know what I want it to be like. Stop trying to sell me every single new release.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Orochi said:


> 40k I believe was in a state of Herohammer in 3rd. Hive Tyrants, Daemon princes and single elite squads (aka terminators, incubi and the like) would break the back of an army.
> If GW have got one thing right recently, it's this.


hell 40k herohammer is stil better that "How many stormshields can I spam into my army?"


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

And you said my DW were cut-and-paste


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Is that set then, one herohammer + one storm shield?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

sleepcascade said:


> Basically, I just want to see from some of the old-time gamers who have been around for a while, whats your take on the current state of the game? Is it vanilla as it seems? Remember, I am more of an outsider nowadays than in the past, so maybe Im out of the loop. Maybe I should focus more on Fantasy? (Which I'd love to do, fantasy is definitely the better game, but I know 40k so well that its easier to jump back in to and be able to dedicate only a little bit of time since I am a full time student) Also, how is the new dark eldar codex? I was in love with the last one, the only thing that needed change was making units like mandrakes and hellions etc, who were virtually ineffective, relevant again. Did they take what needed to be only a slight revision and do a complete 360 with it? (ala chaos)
> 
> Thanks a ton for reading this whole post! I know I may sound a bit cynical but its just my honest point of view coming from a person who truly loves the game. All opinions are welcome so long as they are sincere, thanks again!


Welcome to the boards sleepcascade.

I haven't been playing as long as some players, I started in 4th edition, but I would say that I feel the game is in a very good state. You have several reasons for this:

Models are getting nicer with every release.
Codex creep has been under control (more or less)
Rules have been streamlined for easier organized play
Release of new rule sets to add flavor to the game (Planet Strike, Battle Missions, and Spearhead)
New codices don't suffer from mono builds, where one build is obviously more powerful then all others.

Now, there are some (considered) downsides to this:

New rule sets encourage competitive play.
Streamlining of the rules has moved the game away from the style of the 3rd edition Chaos codex.
Herohammer 40k is mostly gone.

And the biggest downside of all:

More jackasses have taken up the game. Of course there were jackasses in the game already but some older gamers like to pretend that in their golden days everyone was nice and there were no jackass players at all. Some of them have turned into jackasses.

So whats the final word on the state of the game, it's not the same as when you left. It being better or worse is based on what you think of the rule sets. Personally, I like 5th better then 4th, I feel the rules are much tighter and just better over all.

Fantasy is a whole other ball game. I'm currently trying to get into fantasy myself (Warriors of Chaos all the way) but I'm having a hard time finding players in my area.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Now that others have mentioned it I have seen a gradual decline in the atmosphere of gaming centers. Sort of like some horror movie where some malign influence causes everyone to become paranoid and hateful without reason....my god GW is under the sway of Dagon. Quickly burn your miniatures before their the influence of the old ones corrupts your mind!


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Welcome to the boards sleepcascade.
> Fantasy is a whole other ball game. I'm currently trying to get into fantasy myself (Warriors of Chaos all the way) but I'm having a hard time finding players in my area.


That's a bummer, I think fantasy is generally a deeper game the 40k right now. Maybe not better, but with more opportunities for variation.

Warriors of chaos are such a great army. =)

And by the way how is your handle pronounced? "Wuss word"? or more like "Woo sword"?

Cheers,
Kreuger


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Ich kenne nicht wie zu sprache er name?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Kreuger said:


> That's a bummer, I think fantasy is generally a deeper game the 40k right now. Maybe not better, but with more opportunities for variation.
> 
> Warriors of chaos are such a great army. =)
> 
> ...


Wu (Like Wu Tang Clan) Sword.

Love WoC, they have such amazing models.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

My response to this is a case of 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'.

On the one hand I know what people are talking about when they note a fall in the 'hobbyness' of Games Workshop. The old manager of my local GW was a guy I considered a friend, someone you could just go in the shop to talk to, someone who'd talk about stuff other than GW and its products.

The new guy is like that as well, but the current stand-in is obsessed with the job, taking every opportunity he can to get people to buy stuff and going to the ridculous lengths of having a 2000 point Warhammer battle and a 1500 point 40k battle sharing the same 6ft of gaming space.

For this, I'm sad, because I remember the good old days of Monday night gaming, when 1000pt games were the norm and where there could be as many as 20 people gaming. Then hours were rearragned to make covering holidays easier, even though the old manager had warned it would have a negative effect on business.

Ultimately this lead to increasing pressure on him, to the point where he was getting very little sleep and simply decided to leave the company for a better job. Nor is he the only manager of these one man stores who has quit recently.

However, Games Workshop are a business and more pertinently, a business trying to sell luxury items in a time of economic recession. They need to be aggressive in marketing their products, hence the decision that any Space Marine chapter can use the Stormraven. Back in the 90s they simply didn't have the challenges they have now, from computer games and other wargaming companies such as Battlefront and Privateer Press.

That said, I have noticed recently, that a lot more of the people I game with are decidely cynical about Games Workshop, certainly compared with how they used to be. Some of this I'm sure, stems from what happened to the old manager. Some of it though, stems from the simple fact that they've picked up on this more aggressive marketing and what it means for the game.

I remember a few months there was a post asking what it would take to drive people out of the hobby, or at least out of buying Games Workshop stuff. At the time I didn't bother with a serious response, just saying I'd leave if conversions were banned. Now though, I've been seriously thinking about leaving if the focus on Space Marines becomes more and more obvious, since it will mean GW has become too commercially focused for it's own good. 

Personally, I reckon this focus on Space Marines may ultimately sound the death knell for the company, as the other lines will suffer, resulting in lower and lower profits.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I haven't played since 5th came out, after having played since early 2nd.

The LoS rules indeed suck, and so does "only troops can hold objectives LUL" and most codices get watered down so much now. Except the new DE codex. That thing is 100 pages, I'm sure it must be a record. It still sucks though.

I don't know. I don't see myself playing again except with a really competitive Tau codex, and even then it's not going to be much until they sort out their core rules.

What's worse, all the little kiddies hanging around the clubs want to play Apocalypse. To Apocalypse, I say 'Fuck thee'.


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## sleepcascade (Feb 4, 2011)

Well, I know its late, but I havent been playing the game again until recently. I have to, not as bad as I thought. I think there was definitely an immediate culture shock coming back to the game and seeing the new changes, but really at the moment the only agonizing rules change is the true line of sight rule. 

The prices are what they are and they will never change (except for going up.) I realize there are some ways around this. Ive heard similar responses about the atmosphere but Ive yet to go back to a gaming club yet so Im going to have to wait and see on that one. 

And to further delay my immersion into fantasy I think I am going to start up a thousand sons list, which Ive long fancied to do. Really all I need is the 1k sons troops as I have a massive black legion list. Right now I am just using a stand-in list to see if I like them, and so far I have to say they are really fun. (I love physic powers) I would really love to just get started on fantasy but I know that would take up a lot more time than jumping back into 40k. Fantasy will happen I promise! Just a matter of time. Im going to post my 1k sons list up as well. 

Thanks for all the responses, it was great to get a feel for the sentiment surrounding the game these days.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The game itself, as in 5th edition is the best it's ever been. It's the most balanced and easy to play. Don't let nostalgia fool you, 2nd ed had some truly ridiculous things you could do (eldar anyone) and was very complex. In starting fresh with 3rd ed the game lost a lot of flavour and variety that has slowly returned.

The hobby however is not doing nearly so well. There is so much less focus on the hobby nowadays, both from GW and the playerbase. White Dwarf used to be about articles by gamers for gamers with heaps of hobby content, now it's a glorified sales catalogue. When was the last time you saw a trial rules article or a diy terrain article? The focus of the company seems to have shifted to a younger market. Look what happened to the specialist games, beloved of veterans. 

There seems to be so much focus on competeition rather than enjoying the hobby and the game. The tournament scene is starting to act like some sort of competitive sport. 40k is to me best summarised by a quote from Alan Merret "40k is a craft hobby made all the better by the pageantry of table top gaming". This is what the game is about, awesome narrative missions and campaigns telling a story and having fun. You can still see this in Campaign events (notable mention to the Tempus Fugitives events) but it seems to be a dying attitude.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I'd say that the younger, newer players have never had that attitude. It seems to be changing to us old people because we are changing. As you stick around the game longer and longer you get more and more into the hobby and craft aspect of the game. I guess there are some that start out like this, but I know I didn't. I started out playing with spray painted models and used "proxies" all the time to get the most competitive army I could, damn the fluff. Now, I'm more worried about whether a particular squad would be more or less likely to have particular markings and banners.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> What's worse, all the little kiddies hanging around the clubs want to play Apocalypse. To Apocalypse, I say 'Fuck thee'.


 
To Apocalypse, I say Imperial Guard Armored Long-Ranged Artillery Strike Force (or IGALRAS, pronounced EH-gul-RAS)


If all the little kiddies want to play apoc, then play apoc. Bring out your superheavies and titans.




But I agree, 40k is waaay too competitive now. I personally believe that all the codices should be updated at once, rather than one at a time, to prevent things like 2nd (or is it 3rd?) edition Necrons still being used and the Tau's dex still having equipment that deals with target priority. And the SOBs.



When all else fails, play Warmachine. Better game IMO.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Warmachine? Blasphemy!


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Two things:

1. I have no problem with LoS, it makes the game simpler in terms of what can and cannot be seen IMO and just makes sense. If the model has a clear line of sight to an enemy model and is in range, he can see it and shoot it, if he can't see it, then he can't shoot it. Simple.

2. Troops as scoring is one of the better rule changes as it stops people forgetting about Troops altogether.

I'm so sick of seeing army list after army list with 1000's of points spent on super Elite's, HQ's and Heavy Supports, only to have the absolute minimum spent on the backbone of any real army, Troops.

How are Terminators meant to capture an objective? They are Elite killers that will CLEAR an objective, but will then move on to do more killing. Its not like they will hang about and build a base, that's what the basic Troops do.

Now in 5th when I play those idiots who spend less than a 10th of their points on Troops I simply target their weak Troops, wipe them out and dig in on a single objective.



40k IMO is fine. Its a little expensive, but then again, so is going out and getting wasted every weekend.

The main problem I have with 40k IMO is people who are focusing too much on the competitive aspects of the game, at the expense of the social and hobbying aspects. They create lists that deliberately exploit the failings in GW rule system and codices, and have armies full of the exact same models which is boring as hell.


Finally, all the b*tching about GW is getting really old. Its like people are shocked that a company/corporation wants to make money. That's the way the world works, if people don't like it, change the world or just get on with things, and stop complaining to everyone else about how you are quitting the hobby.

If someone wants to quit 40k what do I care? I won't leave just because people hate finecast, the prices, etc etc.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It's funny when your opponent takes two tooled-ep Chapter Masters, with full Honour Guard squads, in Land Raiders, and then have two squads of Scouts as Troops. Put down a good mech list (I play Vanilla Marines, who do this quite well) and say 'Come at me bro!'

It's what I do.

Midnight


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

For me it's the players ruining the game... Too much focus on playing 'Ard Boyz/WAAC's bullshit!
Half my local meta is playing GK's, or else 'counts as' GK's - so freaking boring considering there's about 3 builds being used between them all. The other half play DE, SW, BA, SM, ork... We have hardly any Craftworld Eldar anymore, and aside from a couple of us who are stubborn as hell, we only have perhaps 2-3 of 'Crons, Sisters, Daemons, Tau, 'Nids.

Of corse, the main problem is that pretty much all the local tournaments offer product as prizes... I remember the old days of the GT's - sure the fantasy side saw a number of assholes ruling the top tables, but overall, you saw alot of variation in armies which were all fully painted and we played for trophies - not $$$!
As soon as you offer actual dollar values as prizes, I find the friendliness goes out the window and the mercenaries take over... Hell, now more and more tournies aren't even requiring you to paint your army! (despite the building/painting being two thirds of the hobby!)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The game itself is more or less the same as it's been since I got into the hobby in early 3rd edition. The newest books do better than the older ones as GW's understanding of the game grows over time and they learn how to write interesting and effective books for the edition at hand. There are books that function well (all of the Marine books bar Templars and Dark Angels), Dark Eldar and Guard. Then there are books that don't do very well (Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Necrons) just like in every edition. There was a dark period during the end of 4th edition where the game was being oversimplified (this started with Eldar and ended with Daemons).

The core rules themselves are mostly okay, though there are certainly some areas that need addressing. I agree that true line of sight was a huge mistake as such a literal system has no place in such an imprecise environment but it seems unlikely that we'll be moving back to a more abstract method anytime soon, so there's no use getting too worked up about it. The mech dominance is getting a bit old as it cuts out a huge number of options when list building since a unit needs to have a reliable way to crack open vehicles or it often has no place in a good army. Two thirds of the standard missions are good but Capture and Control is utter crap and I'm dismayed that GW hasn't done anything to address its very obvious issues (seriously, I read the rules for the mission at the start of 5th and wondered if I wasn't somehow misunderstanding their intent).

Personally I've found myself drifting away from 40k over the last several months due mostly in part to its sorry excuse for a community. I'm sick of being part of a tiny minority of players that has a grasp of how to play the game at a high level and having to put up with being treated as a pariah because I decided a decade ago to invest effort into the gaming aspect of the hobby. Not to mention that I find the moaning about supposed power creep, imbalance and cheese to be utterly infuriating. It seems that most people are more interested in complaining about the rules/units/armies that give them a hard time than finding ways to deal with them.

So in conclusion, the game itself is largely fine with only a few points that need fine tuning. It's the people that play the game that are the problem.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

I don't mind the TLOS as I find it better than the old idea of;
My turn: The Enemy unit is behind a solid rockcrete wall 6.5" from the edge of the terrain piece so I can't shoot them.
Opponent's turn: the unit moves forwards 6" and can now shoot me through the still solid as fuck rockcrete wall?!? (Because obviously, being within 6" of a solid object makes bullets suddenly work...)

TLOS also at least removes the annoying arguements about weather or not a unit is a viable target by a tenth of an inch.
It's not perfcet, but it stops a good amount of nonsense.

Kill Points also need to go - too unfair overall because they overly favor armies which can build a small number of 'uber resilent units, while they unfairly punish armies with hordes of lesser troops...
At least if KPs had a scaling value they'd hopefully work better?! (seriously, how the hell is a 10-man termies squad worth the same as a squad of freaking guardsman?!!)

As for power creep - it's a helluva lot worse in fantasy than 40k! My only complaint is GK's being obscenely godly against Daemons.
Sure Daemons have issues, but I can beat any army in the game with a good list, a little luck & some cunning planning... GK's on the other hand is a farce and if my Daemons can last untill turn 3, I consider it a moral victory!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I am also one of those who have been in the hobby for nearly 9 years now.

To be honest I think my store has changed for the better compared to some (I just consider myself lucky) because we now have a manager who focusses on a more social hobby rather than being competitive tournament dicks like we used to.

As for prices. Well they are alaways going to go up with worsening economic climate/inlfation on the side so I expect no different. Does it suck I pay more? Yes but no amount of whinging I do will make any difference to their prices.

As for the rules. In some ways I find them better but others like the constant need nowadays for mech lists is tedious to say the least. As well as the bland missions. I think ever since 3rd ed the missions have slowly degraded. I would kill nowadays for a mission like Blitz or Sabotage because it adds a lot of flavour and is more interesting to play rather than just simply capture objectives 2/3 of the time.

I however do not like powercreep. but whereas before in 4th ed it was not so bad to use a 3rd edition dex it is now almost impossible to use a 3rd edition dex in 5th ed and a lot of 4th ed dexes suffer as well by having practically 1-2 lists at most.

I am starting a Fantasy army in 2 weeks after spending 5 years out of the game simply because I like the rulesset better, all the new army books are actually extremely balanced which I love and its more tactical and challenging to play.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

The only thing that i really miss is the random unit updates that turned up in chapter approved, index astates etc. You got all sorts to play with and add a little more depth to an army that might be stagnating. Whilst they still release army lists in WD, they don't stay usable for long. The SOB list will be obsolete as soon as the new dex is released and as that's rumoured for early next year it begs the question "what was the point?" 

So far in 5th ed (excluding add ons like apocalypse and planetstrike) we've had the SOB codex, BA codex and stormraven rules (i apologise if i missed some but that's off the top of my head). The SOB are current, the BA are now out of date and the storm raven is only usable by Blood angels (who already have the rules in their codex anyway)
In third edition we had the complete index astates series, VDR, Feral orks, Imperial guard regiments of armageddon, Tyranid hunters, deathwatch kill teams, the list went on and on. 

From where i'm standing the game has become a lot more dilluted to the point that i'm playing apocalypse games just to get more variety. Whilst the rules are more simplified, i wonder how necisary this simplification really was. 
Hot chocolate would be simpler without marshmellows, that doesn't mean it would be better.


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## James Tiberius (Sep 1, 2011)

the state of the game as I see it is basically none existent

you walk into a GW and its always empty, maybe the odd one person looking at the space marine infested shelves and thats it.
the atmosphere isn't friendly, staff either ignore the fact you even exist or are humping your leg like a bad michael bay joke.
the customer support varies too much, one day they can be helpful, the next they may as well basically deny they make any wargames and so can't help you at all.
model quality is a major issue, some plastics are so badly flashed you dare now even tackle them, knowing you'll make things worse if you do, some metals are so badly done they may as well be 2 seperate models
and finecast.......well say no more I think
prices are no longer even possible to think about buying

the community also really annoys me, I play anything like WWII, or Napoleonics or infinity and everyoe is kind and friendly and up for a laugh, you play a GW gamer and they are either so serious talking is forbidden, so immature gaming is not possible, or so nit picky about all your choices that fun is none existent.

the state is poor, GW needs to improve, and the attitude of players needs to seriously improve and allot of competetive players need to realise they should sometimes turn off the mindset they have in every game they play


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

The game has evolved from a bunch of geeks bringing out the first edition of Rogue Trader to what it is today a multi million pound industry.

The bottom line of what WH is now the BOTTOM LINE, the money and how they can make more of the stuff, you see GW is no longer answerable to the hobbiests, gamers and enthusiasts. No GW is now answerable to the Shareholders, and just about every shareholder is not interested in the hobby, they care for turnover and end of year dividends.

I mean look at me for example, yes i have complained about my beloved Chaos and its shabby treatment, but in the end of the day i very rarely play the game, i am an Army collector, my part of the hobby is just that, painting and collecting.

One aspect of the hobby that has not changed since i got into it and that is the screams of injustice from one generation of gamers to the next. I bet in 10 years time we'll be complaing about the same stuff.


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