# Did Night Lords have Chaplains?



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I was wondering what you thought about Night Lords and their reaction to Nikaea. Do you think they already had something similar or did they adopt chaplains or simply ignore them?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The short story "The Dark King" states the Night Lords had Chaplains. Whether they survived the Heresy remains to be seen.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I thought the council of Nikea was where Librarians were banned not Chaplains?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I thought the council of Nikea was where Librarians were banned not Chaplains?


It banned Librarians and had Chaplains created to enforce the Edict.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> The short story "The Dark King" states the Night Lords had Chaplains. Whether they survived the Heresy remains to be seen.


Where abouts in it does it mention them?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Page 89:

_"Pyres of the dead stained the skies black and Curze had watched his Chaplains orchestrating the executions of defeated prisoners when Dorn marched into his camp ..."_


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think they cared. They were already disobeying Imperial rule with their cruel tactics. I just don't think anyone cared, because as far as talent, they didn't have a Magnus capable of destroying the Imperial Webway.

As far as chaplains, it seems a bit weird that they would be implemented in a legion who is in a sense, anarchic when it comes to talking about Imperial Morality. So to me, it seems a bit unlikey, and if they did, it was only for show. But hey, I guess anything is possible.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe they acted as judges or executioners? Kind of like how Curze acted as judge jury and executioner on his homeworld?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't think they cared. They were already disobeying Imperial rule with their cruel tactics.


The Night Lords weren't disobeying Imperial Rule though. Their cruelty was never questioned by the Emperor, their brutality was never censured, they were never told that what they were doing was wrong. The Emperor implicitly sanctioned, and approved of, their actions. 



> As far as chaplains, it seems a bit weird that they would be implemented in a legion who is in a sense, anarchic when it comes to talking about Imperial Morality. So to me, it seems a bit unlikey, and if they did, it was only for show. But hey, I guess anything is possible.


While the Night Lords may not have subscribed to a morality we would recognize they certainly did have one of their own, though more along the lines of Justice and Law (and in my opinion this would come closer to the morality of the Imperium, at least latter on). And I think the Night Lords are the kind of Legion that would greatly benefit from Chaplains. The Night Lords mirrored Night Haunter in suffering from a sort of spit-personality. On one hand they have their absolute conviction in Justice but on the other hand they have their sadistic fear-mongering. Having Chaplains to oversee the Legion, and try to keep them from slipping their leash would seem like a good idea to me (and apparently Night Haunter). Most of them are probably dead now though, it wouldn't surprise me if Night Haunter had them specifically targeted as part of his 'self-hating/legion-hating' thing.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well they did completely ignore the edict of Nikea, they were a bit blasé about those sort of things.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Night Lords weren't disobeying Imperial Rule though. Their cruelty was never questioned by the Emperor, their brutality was never censured, they were never told that what they were doing was wrong. The Emperor implicitly sanctioned, and approved of, their actions.


Well lets see, in Dark Knight, Dorn questions and tells the Emperor over Curze's actions to the population of the world they conquered. That and Curze's mentality was becoming a big concern to the other primarchs and the Emperor. Curze was arrested and was about to be judged for his mentality and view of the Emperor and the Imperium. He sure as hell seems to be disobeying Imperial Rule. Until Istvaan, they were essentially renegades in exile.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

To be fair, the Emperor praised the world Curze was in charge of when he first met him, saying it was a model of compliance. Just because Dorn didn't like the way Curze did things, didn't mean the Emperor necessarily disagreed with it, who knows Dorn might of got a speaking to for being to soft.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> To be fair, the Emperor praised the world Curze was in charge of when he first met him, saying it was a model of compliance. Just because Dorn didn't like the way Curze did things, didn't mean the Emperor necessarily disagreed with it, who knows Dorn might of got a speaking to for being to soft.


Thats not really fair either though. The Emperor praised pretty much every Primarch except for Angron. When Curze destroyed his own home world, there are two things you can take from it. You can honestly think that the only way for the Imperium to stay loyal was to scare the heck out of them. If you ever turn your back they will turn against you. Which would be countered by hundreds of worlds were that is not true and were conquered by the loyalists. 

Or... Curze's worlds were not that model of compliance for the Imperium. His tactics were unnecessary and in the end became his own enemy.

As for the Emperor "not necessarily" disagreeing with Kurze, a lot can be said for the Emperor not doing anything. Kurze had his own thoughts about how the Emperor thought about him. He even had visions of the Emperor executing him. The Primarchs were about to pass judgement on Kurze's fate. If that wasn't enough to force the Emperor to do anything about it I don't know what is.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

As far as chaplains go, I'm not sure. Part of me says the Chaplain thing was Erebus and the Word Bearers trying to influence the other legions. 

Of course, the World Eaters had Librarians. So its fair to say the Night Lords had some. It just isn't very fluffy to have Chaplains in a Night Lord warband, unless your trying to bend fluff. Which is also I guess part of playing Warhammer anyway, I just figure some people like following fluff. 

Based off the books written about them, I don't see many Night Lords wasting their time with the position of Chaplains. Or even Night Lords themselves who are for the most part criminals (murderers, rapists, thieves).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Based off the books written about them, I don't see many Night Lords wasting their time with the position of Chaplains. Or even Night Lords themselves who are for the most part criminals (murderers, rapists, thieves).


Unless the Chaplain didn't fill the traditional role to begin with. Or, more likely, those early Chaplains of the Night Lords were, like Zso Sahaal, "true believers" and bought into Curze's vision of order through terror and violence.

But then again, like you said, it's unlikely that the Chaplains were kept on after the Heresy. They seem to have had a unique role within the Word Bearers that never truly was adopted by the other Legions, regardless of how deep into Chaos' sway they fell.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> The Primarchs were about to pass judgement on Kurze's fate. If that wasn't enough to force the Emperor to do anything about it I don't know what is.


It was enough to force the Emperor to do something, hence the assassins. But that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't agree with or approve of Night Haunter, simply that he viewed him as disposable. 

And as I've said before, Night Haunter's argument with Dorn does not represent official sanction in any respect. The Emperor had numerous opportunities to sanction the Night Lords and did not take a single one. The only possible reason why is that he approved.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> It was enough to force the Emperor to do something, hence the assassins. But that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't agree with or approve of Night Haunter, simply that he viewed him as disposable.


That doesn't make any sense. It was enough for the Emperor to do something about it and yet he did not disapprove of Night Haunter's tactics.

I was referring to Curze going into exile for fear of his life. Quite obviously, he did not trust the Emperor or his brothers for his life. His visions, even warped, showed that Curze knew he was being looked down upon. And Dorn's authority over Curze's fate clearly showed that the Emperor did not disapprove of Dorn's actions against Curze. 

You make it sound like the Emperor was biting his lip and putting his hands up in front of Dorn's actions against Curze, like he simply couldn't do anything about it. Thats just simply flawed.



MEQinc said:


> And as I've said before, Night Haunter's argument with Dorn does not represent official sanction in any respect. The Emperor had numerous opportunities to sanction the Night Lords and did not take a single one. The only possible reason why is that he approved.


What? Like the Word Bearers? Or the Thousand Sons at Nikea? Maybe the Wolves with the World Eaters?

My point being, any disapproval of a legion or its primarch has been a surprise throughout the series. Night Haunters brutal tactics were in par with the World Eaters and threatened the Imperial Ideology in many ways worse than Lorgar's. In the end the Night Lord's were destroying worlds, and this was further shown when the Night Lord's own home world went into rebellion. The idea that the only way to keep your people loyal is by killing, torturing, and scaring the people into submission. The same idea that when the Night Lords left, the worlds went back to anarchy and there was simply nothing you could do but retake them and use your same tactics again and again. 

That type of Ideology was completely flawed, because essentially, Curze was admitting that when they left those planets they brought into compliance with the Imperium, they would revert back to not being in compliance and being rebellious. They basically got nothing done, and it was a game of ring a round the rosey. Where they had to continously put planets back into compliance. In a sense, that was a lot worse the Lorgar's fanaticism, because at least his worlds stayed loyal. If the Emperor showed discontent with Lorgar the way we all know he did, how do you think he must have felt with Curze's situation, figuring he pretty much got nothing done and that he couldn't even control his own planet?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

To be fair, it came across to me that Russ wasn't ordered to do what he did, he did it because he had a sense of moral authority that came with him perceiving himself to be the Emperor's Executioner.

Personally, I don't like the way Curze's home planet was written about, it's as if it could descend straight into anarchy despite their being marines there due to recruiting as well as any other Imperial Forces. Seems to black and white, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a chaotic cult there stirring it up.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> That doesn't make any sense. It was enough for the Emperor to do something about it and yet he did not disapprove of Night Haunter's tactics.


The Night Lords were a necessary weapon, something to be used and then discarded when no longer useful. Further, they were an autonomous weapon the Emperor could claim to have no control over there actions (though this is not true). So long as the Night Lords were effective the Emperor need neither approve or disapprove of their actions, and in so doing condone them. Dorn and the High Lords forced the Emperor to make a decision, to either sanction the Night Lords or publicly support their actions. The Emperor actually chose to do neither, and instead tried to assassinate Night Haunter, which is odd given that previously he had been very public with his sanctions. His hand was forced and yet he still couldn't disapprove of their work...



> I was referring to Curze going into exile for fear of his life. Quite obviously, he did not trust the Emperor or his brothers for his life.


Was this before or after he obeyed Dorn's orders and stood side by side with his brothers on Istvaan? Night Haunter wasn't in exile. 



> And Dorn's authority over Curze's fate clearly showed that the Emperor did not disapprove of Dorn's actions against Curze.


What authority did Dorn have over his fate? Dorn sought to have the Emperor judge Night Haunter, showing that his judgment (which had clearly already been passed) was not enough.



> You make it sound like the Emperor was biting his lip and putting his hands up in front of Dorn's actions against Curze, like he simply couldn't do anything about it. Thats just simply flawed.


Sure the Emperor could've done something, just like he could've done something throughout the Night Lords crusade. But the Emperor is a politician, like all politicians he holds power whilst still being beholden to those below him. A leader cannot simply ignore those he leads, especially the powerful and influential. The Emperor could've overruled Dorn and supported Night Haunter, but that would've been approving of a campaign or terror and genocide. The Imperium was moving onto a peaceful footing, the Astartes were already starting to get sidelong glances for their universally brutal and inhuman methods, the Emperor could not be seen to publicly condone the extreme actions of the Night Lords. Their brutal and cynical world-view was forged in the darkness of the Long Night and the blood of the Great Crusade, it had no place in the shinning light of the new Imperium.



> What? Like the Word Bearers? Or the Thousand Sons at Nikea? Maybe the Wolves with the World Eaters?


Exactly. When the Emperor is dissatisfied with his sons, he lets them know. And more to the point, he lets everyone know. Where was the public censure of the Night Lords?



> They basically got nothing done, and it was a game of ring a round the rosey. Where they had to continously put planets back into compliance.


That's not the case however. The Night Lords philosophy doesn't require their constant presence, only the constant threat of their retaliation. They can and did leave planets and those planets remained loyal. The extreme loyalty of their worlds was explicitly mentioned in their fluff.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Night Lords were a necessary weapon, something to be used and then discarded when no longer useful. Further, they were an autonomous weapon the Emperor could claim to have no control over there actions (though this is not true). So long as the Night Lords were effective the Emperor need neither approve or disapprove of their actions, and in so doing condone them. Dorn and the High Lords forced the Emperor to make a decision, to either sanction the Night Lords or publicly support their actions. The Emperor actually chose to do neither, and instead tried to assassinate Night Haunter, which is odd given that previously he had been very public with his sanctions. His hand was forced and yet he still couldn't disapprove of their work...


The Emperor did not order his assasination. The assasination of Curze happened when the Emperor was placed on the Golden Throne as a vegetable. The Emperor never played politics when judging his other sons. So I don't understand why you think Curze was an exception.



MEQinc said:


> Was this before or after he obeyed Dorn's orders and stood side by side with his brothers on Istvaan? Night Haunter wasn't in exile.


Yes. This has been a topic discussed about much in the forums in the past. The best source to look upon is the second Index Astartes. Records could not clearly explain why a rogue force had been dispatched to Istvaan.



MEQinc said:


> What authority did Dorn have over his fate? Dorn sought to have the Emperor judge Night Haunter, showing that his judgment (which had clearly already been passed) was not enough.


Firstly, Dorn was the Emperor's voice from Terra and pretty much the second in command of the Imperium. After Horus' fall he become lord and regent of the Imperium's armies. Dorn was the Emperor's weapon from the start. Remember, and perhaps you should go back and reread my posts, because I said the judgement was happening between the primarchs. Not the Emperor. The Emperor chose not to intervene with the Curze situation. Allowing his _life_ tp be _determined_ by the Primarchs. His life. Death to Curze, to whom you believe the Emperor favored and did not want dead.



MEQinc said:


> Sure the Emperor could've done something, just like he could've done something throughout the Night Lords crusade. But the Emperor is a politician, like all politicians he holds power whilst still being beholden to those below him. A leader cannot simply ignore those he leads, especially the powerful and influential. The Emperor could've overruled Dorn and supported Night Haunter, but that would've been approving of a campaign or terror and genocide. The Imperium was moving onto a peaceful footing, the Astartes were already starting to get sidelong glances for their universally brutal and inhuman methods, the Emperor could not be seen to publicly condone the extreme actions of the Night Lords. Their brutal and cynical world-view was forged in the darkness of the Long Night and the blood of the Great Crusade, it had no place in the shinning light of the new Imperium.


Alright... but I hope you know, that you since you know the Emperor could have done something that you also acknowledge that he didn't. As political as he may have been, he was still the Emperor and the most powerful human being in the galaxy in every category. This was no democracy. The Emperor literally makes the Imperium, if you configure what he does and how essential he is to it's survival. Curze being a primarch is an extraordinary creation of the Emperor's and wouldn't simply be destroyed by politics. By golly! He made a pact with the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs. They were his achievement. There was something fundamentally wrong with Curze and his legion. The point was they were not the best legion, and they ruled their side of the Imperium with unorthodox methods that threatened the survival of the Imperium. 



MEQinc said:


> Exactly. When the Emperor is dissatisfied with his sons, he lets them know. And more to the point, he lets everyone know. Where was the public censure of the Night Lords?
> 
> Curze was fundamentally screwed up. His conscience kept screwing with his gifts. It was more than just the Emperor being "dissatisfied" with Curze. There was no time for Curze to change, he was getting tried. It wasn't like Curze being given a second chance. His actions threatened the success of the Imperium and he believed his actions were right to the core. He needed to be killed.
> 
> ...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Personally, I don't like the way Curze's home planet was written about, it's as if it could descend straight into anarchy despite their being marines there due to recruiting as well as any other Imperial Forces. Seems to black and white, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a chaotic cult there stirring it up.


Perhaps, but then again the Night Lords scarred the shit out of their people. That was pretty much the reason why since they weren't on their home planet, freedom could be tasted again, and to finally regain it seemed a step away. Essentially there was no motivation to obey Imperial way of life other than to not die. That doesn't seem reasonable to think the systems that they took over would just be as loyal as the other legions who used better motivation with their people to maintain them in compliance of the Imperium.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Firstly, I appologize for the lateness of my reply. The holidays have severely limited my internet time. Secondly, I'm going to stop replying after this. We're basically going in circles, and I don't see either one of us changing our opinions anytime soon, and drifting away from the topic at hand. I do feel the need to clarify and expand on some things, hence this post.



ckcrawford said:


> The Emperor did not order his assasination. The assasination of Curze happened when the Emperor was placed on the Golden Throne as a vegetable.


According to _Lord of the Night_ the first assassin was sent shortly after Night Haunter's confrontation with Dorn and many followed thereafter. The Emperor was not on the Throne at this point.



> The Emperor never played politics when judging his other sons. So I don't understand why you think Curze was an exception.


Because everything else about how he dealt with Night Haunter was an exception. There was no censure but rather an attempted assassination and it was done in private, this is very different to how the Emperor has conducted himself in dealing with other 'wayward' sons. So why did he conduct himself differently?



> Records could not clearly explain why a rogue force had been dispatched to Istvaan.


The most (if not only) logical reason would be that they were not rogue at the time. A rogue force would not be dispatched and more importantly a rogue force wouldn't care.



> Remember, and perhaps you should go back and reread my posts, because I said the judgement was happening between the primarchs. Not the Emperor. The Emperor chose not to intervene with the Curze situation. Allowing his _life_ tp be _determined_ by the Primarchs. His life. Death to Curze, to whom you believe the Emperor favored and did not want dead.


1) I have never claimed, and would never claim, that the Emperor favoured Night Haunter in any way. Nor have I claimed that he did not want him dead (why else would he send an assassin?). I have claimed that he did not disapprove of Night Haunter's actions. 

2) It doesn't really matter who Dorn was seeking approval or agreement from, my point was simply that Dorn's word was not final, his judgment was not enough to condemn Night Haunter. 

3) The Emperor did chose to intervene, by sending the assassin. The first assassin was sent while Night Haunter was still awaiting judgment, before any trial or meeting could be held. The Emperor controls the Officio Assassinorium, therefore he decided that the assassin be sent.



> Alright... but I hope you know, that you since you know the Emperor could have done something that you also acknowledge that he didn't.


I don't just acknowledge it, it's my entire point. The Emperor clearly *chose* not to do anything about Night Haunter. My argument is an explanation as to why he made that choice.



> As political as he may have been, he was still the Emperor and the most powerful human being in the galaxy in every category. This was no democracy. The Emperor literally makes the Imperium, if you configure what he does and how essential he is to it's survival.


It doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be a democracy for him to rely on, and be beholden to, the people below him. He relies on the Primarchs, on the High Lords, the Mechanicus, the Custodes and a thousand other bodies because as powerful as he is, he is not powerful enough to do it alone. He cannot afford to alienate those groups.



> And the rebellion on their planet sealed that sense of "philosophy."


Nostramo didn't rebel, it slipped back into criminality. Night Haunter became fed up with how it was defiling his Legion with criminals who cared more for the terror they caused than the reason they caused it, not with how loyal it was to the Imperium. The Night Lords created obedient worlds. The Imperium, to this day, creates obedient worlds in the same way. Through fear.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> His actions threatened the success of the Imperium and he believed his actions were right to the core. He needed to be killed.


In the beginning, perhaps. But at the end, when he'd run to Tsagualsa and lived in the Screaming Gallery, this certainly wasn't the case. He committed horrific atrocities (the Screaming Gallery being a prime example) that he knew were fundamentally wrong, knowing he would receive his punishment. He was trying to impress upon the Emperor that the Night Lords/Night Haunter on Nostramo, were/had been punishing those who had done wrong, just as the Emperor was to punish Curze for having done wrong, meaning (paradoxically) that the Emperor was no different to the Night Lords. His death was purely to prove his point that punishment by death is the most effective means of rulership, which is why his last words were 'Death is nothing compared to vindication', a mantra he was very fond of.

He knew what he was doing was barbaric and wrong. It had to be to, because he had to break the rules in order to be punished. He wanted to die; there's a quote in _Void Stalker_ saying something along the lines of 'No living thing in the galaxy hated simply living as much as Curze did'. He hated his Legion, he hated his father, he hated himself, and he hated the Imperium. Night Haunter actually had a very strong sense of morality. How he dealt with it is another matter, but he was no fool in terms of right and wrong.

Midnight


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