# Huge, sweeping 40K FAQ changes



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Hey everybody. Someone at Games Workshop finally woke up. A bunch of Codex books and the rulebook have gotten new FAQs.

Specifically, all Space Marine books (not counting Daemonhunters), the Dark Eldar and the rulebook have seen some very interesting changes.

Dark Angels and Black Templars are suddenly on-par with 5th edition books.

Post your thoughts, discuss the changes and most of all, be happy that clearly some moron at GW was fired.

Link


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I hate you ... I really do.:biggrin:

However I do bow to your Google-fu.:thank_you:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Funny how GKs didn't get any update. I know it's because the codex comes out in April, but still it's ironic how they always get everything last...

On a more serious note, where are my 35pts rhinos with smokes and repair for the Sisters of Battle codex???

Phil


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

boreas said:


> Funny how GKs didn't get any update. I know it's because the codex comes out in April, but still it's ironic how they always get everything last...
> 
> On a more serious note, where are my 35pts rhinos with smokes and repair for the Sisters of Battle codex???
> 
> Phil


Yeah I wasn't overly impressed with how Witch Hunters were ignored either, but this is still a huge step forward for GW, so I'm not going to complain.

I mean, _Dark Angels_ can actually do stuff now.

Deathwing Terminators packing thunder hammers and storm shields (the real kind, not the gimpy, stupid kind) and a cyclone missile launcher that fires two shots, for ten points less than Codex Marines pay for theirs. Oh yes, that is _sweet_.

Black Templars rockin' 5 man Terminator Squads with cyclone launchers that fire two shots _and_ can take Tank Hunters? Why yes, I think I will.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

CBA checking - what sort of updates aside from Terminators do DA have?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yes~!
It made me sad that they didn't fiddle with the point costs of various options (like Devastator's weapon options, and Razorback ditto) in the Space Marine codex, but oh well.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Link please?

This does sound awesome, though.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Scathainn said:


> Link please?
> 
> This does sound awesome, though.


http://www.games-workshop.com

Gaming > Errata and FAQ Articles > Warhammer 40,000 Frequently Asked Questions > Next

There's your fucking link.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I can't remember how many times I wrote GW (and I mean people like JJ or Andy Hoare) in the last 6 years asking them do that. The answer (and I got the same from many people on HO or B&C) always was: we don't want player to need the FAQs to play, so forget about any FAQ updates as they will only create confusion. I the wake of the infamous PDF WH and DH codice, I was a big ball of nerdrage about how they didn't update the rules at the same time. Again, the answer was "we don't want the players to get confused with different printouts".

All in all, I'm really happy that GW is embracing the third millenium and recognizes the Internet as the powerful tool it can be  With my Codex: GK coming out, my Sisters can wait a bit. With the last "Incoming" about GK, I must say that GW is rapidly gaining goodwill as far as I'm concerned.

Phil


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Uh, wow, sorry guys. I could've sworn that I included a link in the original post. Editing now.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I feel faint lol.


EDIT

Although I notice (my) Codex Chaos Daemons didn't get any love. We have probably the tiniest FAQ and it's not even filled with good questions.

Also do you think maybe this is a way of balancing out the fack they have upped their prices (again) because of VAT?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

oddly enough nothing at all about the Flicker Fields of the new DE.


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## sir_m1ke (Dec 7, 2008)

Hadnt checked the FAQs in quite a while so im not totally sure what is brand new and what was changed before, but here are the things in the SM codex that jumped out at me as massive changes:



> Q: If a Razorback armed with a lascannon and twin-linked
> plasma gun suffers a weapon destroyed result, does it
> destroy both weapons or just one? (77)
> A: Only one weapon – either the lascannon or the twinlinked
> plasma gun.


This is a pretty big change as i have always played that it was both. makes that razor even more useful, as if it needed it



> Q. Can a vehicle with the Power of the Machine Spirit fire
> a weapon on the turn the vehicle uses Smoke Launchers?
> (p81)
> A. No.


Pretty big as well, as this stops the usual tactics of one o my usual opponents



> Q. When a unit with the And They Shall Know no Fear
> special rule regroups do they get to immediately move up
> to 3" as well as moving as normal that turn? (p51)
> A. Yes.


Rule gets even better, nice 9" movement from a regroup. although im still unsure about how this affects the likes of heavy weapons, can they still fire after the 3" move? as technically they did move the model, but not in the movement phase as such. Good to see there are no grey areas left.......:fool:



> Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
> then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat
> squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the
> Drop Pod? (p69)
> ...


Squads that are in reserve may not break into combat squads?? THAT is a big change to how i usually play, and is something that could really affect a drop pod army



> Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
> inside? (p69)
> A: Yes you can.


can anyone say "wall of cover plonked down in front of the enemy army"?

All in all some interesting changes, any thoughts from anyone?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

sir_m1ke said:


> This is a pretty big change as i have always played that it was both. makes that razor even more useful, as if it needed it


You were very, very wrong.
Honestly I can't begin to imagine how you thought they were a single weapon.



sir_m1ke said:


> Pretty big as well, as this stops the usual tactics of one o my usual opponents


Your usual opponent was either bad at common sense, AND stupid, or was cheating.



sir_m1ke said:


> Rule gets even better, nice 9" movement from a regroup. although im still unsure about how this affects the likes of heavy weapons, can they still fire after the 3" move? as technically they did move the model, but not in the movement phase as such. Good to see there are no grey areas left.......:fool:


They always could do that.
From what I can see, no they cannot Consolidate and then fire Heavy weapons in the same turn; they can however forgo the Consolidation move in order to fire them.



sir_m1ke said:


> Squads that are in reserve may not break into combat squads?? THAT is a big change to how i usually play, and is something that could really affect a drop pod army


This is their clarification of a rather obscure rule, and I like it, makes the definition of 'deploy' much clearer.



sir_m1ke said:


> can anyone say "wall of cover plonked down in front of the enemy army"?


You always could do this.

*edit*
Oh, and if you read the first part of the FAQ, it says that everything in magenta is new stuff.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Black Templars rockin' 5 man Terminator Squads with cyclone launchers that fire two shots _and_ can take Tank Hunters? Why yes, I think I will.


Black Templars Assault Terminators with TH/SS, hitting at Str.9 (Furious Charge) and re-rolling missed hits (Preferred Enemy)? 

Yes sir I'll take 2


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Black Templars Assault Terminators with TH/SS, hitting at Str.9 (Furious Charge) and re-rolling missed hits (Preferred Enemy)?
> 
> Yes sir I'll take 2


No doubt! I makes me want to dust off my Templars Codex.... Like I have time for another project


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## HighMarshalIain (May 19, 2009)

As a Black Templar player I am very happy that we have caught up with the new SS/TH rule, I am also happy that our Cyclone Missles are 2 shots. I wish to god our Rhino's point cost dropped too, 50 points base is still extremely high, I want my 35 point Rhinos then we would be the best army on the table!

~HighMarshalIain


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

This is good news, I'm glad that all the FAQs are updated. My friend will be extremely happy since he plays both Space Wolves and Dark Angels.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Uh...wow. Changing statlines and weapon strengths is a pretty big deal. Looks like this is pretty much a big patch for 4th ed Marines to get them up to speed. Templars made out particularly well.

Of course, unless there's a Round 2 in the works, all the other pre-5th ed codices just got a lot suckier in comparison. Poor Battle Sisters are officially the Redheaded Stepdaughters of the Imperium. Paint hair appropriately.


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## Tylith (Jan 10, 2011)

*Dusts off Templars codex* Yup, time to get back into Abhoring the Witch and such.

Also, I don't understand peoples fascination with the Flickerfields. Its a 5++. All the time. That makes it awesome and actually usable. I'm glad they didn't mess that one up.

Also, the beasts not getting fnp or furious charge is big. As is being able to move 36" and still drop a void mine.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

OIIIIIIO said:


> oddly enough nothing at all about the Flicker Fields of the new DE.


What did they need? Unless you're talking about the whole "they don't work at all because vehicles can't take saves..." thing, in which case they probably decided that no-one is THAT bloody stupid.

Templars are much, much better. Still not sold on Dark Angels yet, I need to re-read the codex.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

AAAAAhahahahahaha. This is fucking brilliant, Katie, you are now officially my new bestest friend, not really. Lol thanks, you may have stopped a friend of mine from leaving 40k.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Templars are much, much better. Still not sold on Dark Angels yet, I need to re-read the codex.


Hmm, coincidence, as many are talking about using the new GK plastics as Templars? 

I doubt it. :wink:


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

> From what I can see, no they cannot Consolidate and then fire Heavy weapons in the same turn; they can however forgo the Consolidation move in order to fire them.


They do afair...checking...

C:SW pg 24 under 'And They Shall Know No Fear' says:
*'Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply...'*

This is from the SW book but seeing as ATSKNF is shared by all Marine Chapters the wording will surely be the same. Thus, you can regroup 3" and fire Heavy Weapons (i.e. for Long Fangs) or you can choose to move 9" but not fire them.

Pity the Wolves didn't get cheaper Storm Shields. Although it is nice to see some of the older chapters getting some love. BT are definitely getting more powerful with for one.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

still no codex legal ability for DA to take the dreadnought only THEY use I see.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

ohiocat110 said:


> Poor Battle Sisters are officially the Redheaded Stepdaughters of the Imperium. Paint hair appropriately.


I already have.

Now I'm going into the garden to sulk.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

This changes a decent amount for my SM drop pod friends from the whole "cant combat squad from reserves" and "off the table is deep strike mishap", but thats about it actually


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

sir_m1ke said:


> Hadnt checked the FAQs in quite a while so im not totally sure what is brand new and what was changed before, but here are the things in the SM codex that jumped out at me as massive changes:


The magenta bits are the newest updates.

Guess I better get printing!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

For the most part guys, I'd take a lack of FAQ updates as a sign of things to come in the relatively near future. Dark Eldar obviously needed an update since their book just came out and there were questions that had yet to be addressed, and obviously all of the Marine books are easy to do in one fell swoop. I don't think anyone will disagree that the Dark Angels and Black Templars really did deserve this update (and have deserved it for quite some time) - it's about damn time that we had some standardization across a bunch of largely similar books.

Tyranids are perfectly playable at present. Some (myself included) think that there were a few unnecessary rulings, but on the whole the book functions well so it's not a huge deal one way or another.

We know that the Daemonhunters are going to be getting an update really soon in the form of a new Codex, so it's not surprising that Games Workshop didn't bother writing an FAQ for them. Necrons are rumored to be next in line after the GKs and don't really suffer from any niggling unanswered rule questions at present (not to say that the army doesn't have problems, because it does. Lots of them). Witch Hunters are currently still in the very early phase of development according to recent rumor so GW probably figures that it's fine to leave them be.

Tau have an old book, but frankly there are other Codecies that simply need attention more than they do. Chaos (of either variety) is a mess and needs a re-write more than an FAQ, Eldar are in a similar boat. Games Workshop seems to be happy with how the Orks are doing, so no need for an update there.

So basically, don't feel bad if your army didn't get any attention. Unless you play Chaos in either the Traitor Marine or Daemonic variety, in which case you should feel bad all the time until GW writes a new Codex.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Unless you play Chaos in either the Traitor Marine or Daemonic variety, in which case you should feel bad all the time until GW writes a new Codex.


:ireful2: ^ very true ^


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> Pity the Wolves didn't get cheaper Storm Shields. Although it is nice to see some of the older chapters getting some love. BT are definitely getting more powerful with for one.


You and me both stormbrow II. SW in terminator armour with TH/SS are hideously overcosted (twice the amount) compared to their Codex counterparts. 

Good to see GW doing something positive across the range.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> So basically, don't feel bad if your army didn't get any attention.


Yeah, you're already second tier in the eyes of GW so this really doesn't represent any change...

The thing to watch will be whether this was a one-time update to ensure the awesomeness of all things Astartes (since DA and BT were years away from new codices going by the usual rollout schedule), or if this is a new way of doing business where GW will ensure that everybody gets a fair shake for 5th ed. rules. 

Hopefully the latter. Not just for the sake of game balance, but GW would probably like to get some of the more stagnant product lines moving again. The older codices are really getting left in the dust at this point.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I think GW might do a few more updates once the Grey Knight codex comes out. Cause right now witch hunter and daemon hunter share a lot of equipment. So it would make sense for them to update it after Grey Knights come out.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> So basically, don't feel bad if your army didn't get any attention.


Or more accurately 'If you don't play Space Marines you can just piss right off, signed Games Workshop.'.

I normally make every effort to find excuses for GW when people start moaning about whatever it is they did this week to doom the hobby, but this is an explicit statement that failure to play space Marines is not tollerated.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Azezel said:


> Or more accurately 'If you don't play Space Marines you can just piss right off, signed Games Workshop.'.


I took a quick spin over to Bolter and Chainsword (SM-oriented, for those unaware) and they're absolutely giddy. Well, between laughing at how hard Shadow of the Warp got nerfed in the Tyranid FAQ, anways.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Anyone notice vampire counts at the bottom of the space marine FAQ?


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I think it would be too much to give Chaos, Eldar, Necrons, and such the updates they need through FAQ. That'd be quite a bit of magenta text in there. Marines were a fairly easy fix comparatively.

I am sad though that Vect's Dias can't take upgrades. I can't see myself ever paying that many points for it now. Well, maybe...


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> So basically, don't feel bad if your army didn't get any attention. Unless you play Chaos in either the Traitor Marine or Daemonic variety, in which case you should feel bad all the time until GW writes a new Codex.


Agreed  I suppose its going to be a looooong wait


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Azezel said:


> Or more accurately 'If you don't play Space Marines you can just piss right off, signed Games Workshop.'.


thats been GW's policy for years


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

ohiocat110 said:


> Yeah, you're already second tier in the eyes of GW so this really doesn't represent any change...


I understand how you feel. I really do, I play Daemons, arguably the most fucked up Codex other than Necrons and Daemonhunters (both of which are due to be fixed relatively soon). It's just like you said - Space Marines are all quite similar and easy to update with an FAQ. It'd be an awful lot harder to do something like that with a xenos race, or even the Witch Hunters. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that it'd be a complete disaster if they _did_ do it.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Winterous said:


> http://www.games-workshop.com
> 
> Gaming > Errata and FAQ Articles > Warhammer 40,000 Frequently Asked Questions > Next
> 
> There's your fucking link.


:shok:

A little angry....

All this is totally awesome though! Finally my old Black Templars can actually do something this time around! :biggrin:


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

boreas said:


> Funny how GKs didn't get any update. I know it's because the codex comes out in April, but still it's ironic how they always get everything last...
> 
> On a more serious note, where are my 35pts rhinos with smokes and repair for the Sisters of Battle codex???
> 
> Phil


/me flips open the second print Witch Hunter codex... ohh... Rhinos do have the repair rule now 
Still 50pts though...


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I might just cry a little bit. I've waited so long...


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

MadCowCrazy said:


> /me flips open the second print Witch Hunter codex... ohh... Rhinos do have the repair rule now
> Still 50pts though...


Darn my old codex... :biggrin:

Still... GW, hear our FAQ plea!

Phil


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## BearingTheWord (Feb 8, 2010)

Forgive the ingnorance, stupidity, moronacy (Is that even word? lol) but can you not still separate your 10man tactical squad into 5man combat squads _after_ they have disembarked onto the table from their drop pod? The FAQ just states that you can't separate them prior to dropping the pods if I understand it correctly?......

On a side note, My son is happy with the BT changes as that's the army he and I have been putting together for him....But he is still stumped as to why BT no longer seem to have access to Whirlwinds? 

It seems, at least according to the older Codex: Armageddon (that we recently acquired) that they had access to them, as the BT still used the C: SM as their codex with the modified rules in the Codex: Armageddon. He even pointed out that it contained pics of the BT Crusades with Whirlwinds in them. Anyone have any insight into when and why they no longer have them available to them in the newest codex?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

BearingTheWord said:


> On a side note, My son is happy with the BT changes as that's the army he and I have been putting together for him....But he is still stumped as to why BT no longer seem to have access to Whirlwinds?
> 
> It seems, at least according to the older Codex: Armageddon (that we recently acquired) that they had access to them, as the BT still used the C: SM as their codex with the modified rules in the Codex: Armageddon. He even pointed out that it contained pics of the BT Crusades with Whirlwinds in them. Anyone have any insight into when and why they no longer have them available to them in the newest codex?


For fluffy/balancing reasons, the same reason why they don't have Devastator Squads.

Whirlwinds are a static, barrage effect weapon whereas the BT are almost the epitome of offensive Astartes power, always on the attack never the defensive.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BearingTheWord said:


> It seems, at least according to the older Codex: Armageddon (that we recently acquired) that they had access to them, as the BT still used the C: SM as their codex with the modified rules in the Codex: Armageddon. He even pointed out that it contained pics of the BT Crusades with Whirlwinds in them. Anyone have any insight into when and why they no longer have them available to them in the newest codex?


Baron pretty much said it. The lack of Whirlwinds just helps illustrate that Black Templars are the most "attacky" of all the Space Marine Chapters (rule-wise. I'm not getting into a fluff debate). I wouldn't be too surprised if whenever the new Black Templars Codex comes out Whirlwinds are reintroduced, though. I think GW realizes that it's kinda dumb to discourage Black Templars players from buying more models.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stormbrow II said:


> They do afair...checking...
> 
> C:SW pg 24 under 'And They Shall Know No Fear' says:
> *'Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply...'*
> ...


Page 29 of BRB, "HEAVY WEAPONS", first sentence of second paragraph.


> If a unit moves then it cannot shoot Heavy weapons - they either move or shoot, but not both.


Page 46 of BRB, "REGROUPING", first-second sentences of fourth paragraph.


> If a unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops Falling Back and Regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move in unaffected by Difficult Terrain, but Dangerous Terrain tests must be taken as normal).


It doesn't stipulate that this move doesn't count as moving, and since Regrouping is done at the beginning of your turn, and that first quote obviously means if you've moved during THIS turn, that leads me to believe you cannot fire a Heavy weapon after using your 3" move from Regrouping, if you have ATSKNF.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Deathwing just became that much more awesome thanks to these updates. The updated storm shields are fucking awesome, and now that DA Apothecaries grant FNP it's gonna get a lot harder to kill off a DW command squad, as the biggest threat to terminators in my opinion is having to make a bucket load of saves as you're gonna start rolling 1's if you're forced to make enough saving throws. FNP means that you'll have a 50/50 chance of surviving a failed save, pretty fucking awesome if you ask me. Now all I have to do is come up with a way of freeing up thirty points so I can buy an Apothecary for my DW army.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Pretty nice to see these updates.

Also. Check out the bottom page of the space marine FAQ:

"Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts"

Priceless


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## hijynx (Aug 7, 2009)

Time to dust off my dark angels...


....and repaint them as Black Templar. 

Kidding. I am giving some thought about deathwing again though. Three scoring units of terminators with proper storm shields in land raiders? Yes please.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

hijynx said:


> Time to dust off my dark angels...
> 
> 
> ....and repaint them as Black Templar.
> ...


Yeah, or a unit of Fearless, Feel No Pain (due to an Apothecary) Hammernators packing a cyclone missile launcher and are Troops...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Seems that, with all these FAQ updates, it is unlikely that any of these codices are going to be re-written for another two years at the earliest.


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## Mr.Juggernaught (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah this is pretty sweet that they have enligned everything to be equal with space morons and death wing is now looking like a nice alternative to me as I already have about 2600 points of death wing to start with.


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## hijynx (Aug 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, or a unit of Fearless, Feel No Pain (due to an Apothecary) Hammernators packing a cyclone missile launcher and are Troops...


yeah... I finally finished reading the updates. Beilail's command squad just got a whole lot scarier. Belaial + Lightning Claws + Company Banner + 5 TH/SS FNP Terminators that each have 4 attacks on the charge. :shok:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

hijynx said:


> yeah... I finally finished reading the updates. Beilail's command squad just got a whole lot scarier. Belaial + Lightning Claws + Company Banner + 5 TH/SS FNP Terminators that each have 4 attacks on the charge. :shok:


lol screw giving Belial lightning claws, the man is a monster with a hammer and shield. He costs almost no points when you take his wargear into account. A similarly equipped Space Marine Captain costs 170 points and doesn't spread his Leadership to the entire army.

Belial went from really ordinary to a steal for his points.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> lol screw giving Belial lightning claws, the man is a monster with a hammer and shield. He costs almost no points when you take his wargear into account. A similarly equipped Space Marine Captain costs 170 points and doesn't spread his Leadership to the entire army.
> 
> Belial went from really ordinary to a steal for his points.


I really wanna repaint a section of my Marines as Dark Angels now! 

Curse you!

Stop making it sound appealing


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

Winterous said:


> It doesn't stipulate that this move doesn't count as moving, and since Regrouping is done at the beginning of your turn, and that first quote obviously means if you've moved during THIS turn, that leads me to believe you cannot fire a Heavy weapon after using your 3" move from Regrouping, if you have ATSKNF.





> 'Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, *but these restrictions do not apply...'*


The emphasis is mine. Normally units falling back count as moving and can't shoot heavy weapons as you've pointed out. 

Space Marines don't count as moving as 'these restrictions do not apply': one of those restrictions being ignored is 'always count as moving' (the other being 'cannot move normally'). Thus, Long Fangs that fall back and later regroup are able to move 3" and fire their guns because they don't count as having moved.

Do I win the internet now? 



> lol screw giving Belial lightning claws, the man is a monster with a hammer and shield. He costs almost no points when you take his wargear into account.


He's no Lysander or Bear Wolf Lord. I'd rather use him to slice and dice and take the pressure off the Termies with his high I power weapon attacks than risk him swinging last and getting taken out by S8+ or other esoteric Instant Death attacks. You should have enough TH attacks to pull down whatever you're fighting or at least clatter the shit out of it and drop it to I 1 for the next turn with the grunts anyway.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stormbrow II said:


> He's no Lysander or Bear Wolf Lord.


He also costs 70-85 points less, so that sort of makes sense.



> I'd rather use him to slice and dice and take the pressure off the Termies with his high I power weapon attacks than risk him swinging last and getting taken out by S8+ or other esoteric Instant Death attacks.


But he can't kill anything with his crappy power sword. It's Master-Crafted sure, but S4 attacks don't do shit. Then he has to deal with having a crappy Invul save and going down to the first bop on the nose with a power fist he suffers.



> You should have enough TH attacks to pull down whatever you're fighting or at least clatter the shit out of it and drop it to I 1 for the next turn with the grunts anyway.


The hammer and shield loadout isn't there so Belial can kill stuff, it's there to make him hard to kill so he can keep buffing the army with Rites of Battle.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stormbrow II said:


> The emphasis is mine. Normally units falling back count as moving and can't shoot heavy weapons as you've pointed out.
> 
> Space Marines don't count as moving as 'these restrictions do not apply': one of those restrictions being ignored is 'always count as moving' (the other being 'cannot move normally'). Thus, Long Fangs that fall back and later regroup are able to move 3" and fire their guns because they don't count as having moved.
> 
> Do I win the internet now?


No, you don't.
That means they don't count as moving just because they Regrouped, like a normal unit would (even if they hadn't moved, by using the 3" move).
However, after you Regroup (and don't count as moving for doing so), you have the option to move 3", which is not discounted as 'counting as moving', so you still count as moving after doing that, since you have moved.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

DarKKKKK said:


> This changes a decent amount for my SM drop pod friends from the whole "cant combat squad from reserves" and "off the table is deep strike mishap", but thats about it actually


Might want to re-read the Combat Squad FAQ again. It does NOT say that you may not Combat Squad *FROM* Reserves, it says you cannot combat squad while placed *IN* Reserves. What the question is specifically answering is whether the squad can be split with half in a transport and half elsewhere, either deployed or in reserves outside the transport. No, as that is combat squadding while *IN* reserves. 

So to use the Drop Pod as an example. You place the squad in the pod in Reserves. You do NOT declare that they are combat squadding at this time. They cannot, as they are all in the same transport and as we all know, only one unit plus attached ICs can share a ride. When they arrive and disembark, then you decide to combat squad or not to combat squad. It's not until that point in time that you have to make a single declaration about whether they combat squad or not. The same process can be followed for every unit you place in reserves with the Combat Squad rule, when they enter play from reserves, ie deploy, you can declare at that time that they are combat squadding.

See the difference?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

don_mondo said:


> Might want to re-read the Combat Squad FAQ again. It does NOT say that you may not Combat Squad *FROM* Reserves, it says you cannot combat squad while placed *IN* Reserves. What the question is specifically answering is whether the squad can be split with half in a transport and half elsewhere, either deployed or in reserves outside the transport. No, as that is combat squadding while *IN* reserves.
> 
> So to use the Drop Pod as an example. You place the squad in the pod in Reserves. You do NOT declare that they are combat squadding at this time. They cannot, as they are all in the same transport and as we all know, only one unit plus attached ICs can share a ride. When they arrive and disembark, then you decide to combat squad or not to combat squad. It's not until that point in time that you have to make a single declaration about whether they combat squad or not. The same process can be followed for every unit you place in reserves with the Combat Squad rule, when they enter play from reserves, ie deploy, you can declare at that time that they are combat squadding.
> 
> See the difference?


"The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod."
I think they've made it pretty clear with that and the FAQ that any unit which is not deployed at the start of the game, or inside a Drop Pod, cannot use Combat Squads.


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## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

Errr read the whole Faq unit held in reserve cannot combat squad. damn man on of the answers halfway down the page, to the drop pod question is literally "A: No, units placed in reserve cannot combat squad."

So yes, yes it does actually say you cannot combats squad units that arrive from reserves.

And before you say "but they deploy when they arrive", no they don't. They deploy in the deployment phase at the beginning, they arrive in the movement phase of another turn.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Azrell said:


> Errr read the whole Faq unit held in reserve cannot combat squad. damn man on of the answers halfway down the page, to the drop pod question is literally "A: No, units placed in reserve cannot combat squad."
> 
> So yes, yes it does actually say you cannot combats squad units that arrive from reserves.
> 
> And before you say "but they deploy when they arrive", no they don't. They deploy in the deployment phase at the beginning, they arrive in the movement phase of another turn.


The word deploy is used in a multitude of locations, not just the 'deployment phase' (which doesn't actually exist, oddly).

However, it says:


> No, because squads that a placed in reserve may not break down into Combat Squads.


What that means: Any unit that has, during the game, been placed in Reserve, may not divide into Combat Squads.
So, excepting them having been inside a Drop Pod as it states that specifically, any unit that has at any time in the past been placed in Reserve, may not choose to Combat Squad.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Why does GW hate the xeno players? 

I will try to get a job there one day. 

Then I`ll show you all! Ha!



... not really...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Why does GW hate the xeno players?


Cause the heretical Xenos do not serve the Emperor? No, thats probably not the reason, I believe it has something to do with the fact that the Marines out sell the Xenos or something... :laugh:


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## smitty23 (Mar 5, 2010)

probably not the right thread and i appologize in advance but have you guys heard anything about the next white dwarf adding rules to use stormravens in all variants of marines? WTF is that shit if so. Sorry if this is common knowledge or something but i play codex marines and personally that would be the worst idea ever.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow, incredibly disappointing that they still haven't gotten off their asses and done a Tau vehicle fix. After 5th ed. launched Tau players are paying roughly 30 points too much per freaking Hammerhead or Devilfish due to the new firing rules, and the general cheapening of tanks after armor penetration chart rules as well.

Fuck.

Sometimes I just need to stop getting excited when people shout "At last! Signs of life spotted in Nottingham!"


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Be careful what you wish for, they might drop the points on the vehicles and charge you extra for disruption pods which are well under-costed


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

> No, you don't.
> That means they don't count as moving just because they Regrouped, like a normal unit would (even if they hadn't moved, by using the 3" move).
> However, after you Regroup (and don't count as moving for doing so), you have the option to move 3", which is not discounted as 'counting as moving', so you still count as moving after doing that, since you have moved.


The third time is the charm.

*BRB pg 46 under Regrouping:*

If the unit...regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3"...

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (thought it always counts as moving on the turn it regroups)* or turn and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance. 

The * indicates one of the things that ATSKNF provides an exception to. The 3" move doesn't prevent units with Heavy Weapons from firing because they don't count as moving if they don't move after their 3" regroup move. 



> But he can't kill anything with his crappy power sword. It's Master-Crafted sure, but S4 attacks don't do shit. Then he has to deal with having a crappy Invul save and going down to the first bop on the nose with a power fist he suffers.


Who's talking about his Sword? Its Claws all the way for re-rolls to wound. Granted he's got the fairly weak S4 but re-rolls mean he can grind his way through units with his high I. His job is kill infantry to stop them spamming hits onto the Termies, always a good thing against units that have grunts with Power Weapons or their equivalents. 

He can soak up lots of small arms fire on the way in with 3 Wounds, 2+ save and FNP so all those lovely Hammers can stay alive long enough to get into combat. Meanwhile the Termies can soak up the AP2 shots with their Storm Shields if I feel that Belial needs to stay alive to get into combat.

Why the insistence on the use of Rites of Battle? 
You get to use his Leadership for Morale & Pinning tests. 

Whoopdedoo. Deathwing are Fearless, as are Ravenwing. Are you seriously considering taking units that aren't one of the above apart from Scouts? You want to keep him kicking to have your Scouts pass Leadership and Pinning Tests? I'd rather use him as bait to lure tough units into combat with all the lovely Hammers in his unit where they'll be slowly ground down.


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## PsychoXeno (Jun 23, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Cause the heretical Xenos do not serve the Emperor? No, thats probably not the reason, I believe it has something to do with the fact that the Marines out sell the Xenos or something... :laugh:


Probably because there's 5:1 ratio of Marine army variants compared to Xenos...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stormbrow II said:


> Who's talking about his Sword? Its Claws all the way for re-rolls to wound. Granted he's got the fairly weak S4 but re-rolls mean he can grind his way through units with his high I. His job is kill infantry to stop them spamming hits onto the Termies, always a good thing against units that have grunts with Power Weapons or their equivalents.


Sorry, for some reason I was under the impression that you wanted the storm bolter or something. My mistake.

Yeah lightning claws are much more effective than the sword, but I'd still prefer the hammer and shield. Since he's likely joined to his Command Squad with FNP, the unit doesn't really need to be overly concerned with lots of "small" armor allowing attacks so cutting down on the number of swings people get isn't as important as keeping Belial alive, at least in my opinion.



> Why the insistence on the use of Rites of Battle?
> You get to use his Leadership for Morale & Pinning tests.


Yeah, I'm aware of how the rule works and yes, I do think that some Greenwing units are worth taking even in the current environment, hence the suggestion.


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## BearingTheWord (Feb 8, 2010)

Thank Baron and Katie for the comments...Makes total sense, but I'm with Katie: why discourage players from buying more of your products? 

Again, thanks 



**Referring to my querry on BT's and Whirlwinds btw**


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stormbrow II said:


> The third time is the charm.
> 
> *BRB pg 46 under Regrouping:*
> 
> ...


It's a little convoluted, but I still disagree.

Under ATSKNF "...and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply..."
Under Regrouping "For example, it can shoot (though it always counts as moving on the turn it Regroups)"

What ATSKNF is overriding is the 'cannot move' and 'always count as moving on the turn they regroup'.
It's not overriding you counting as moving for ACTUALLY moving, it's overriding you counting as moving for simply having Regrouped.

You cannot fire Heavy weapons after the 3" Regroup move, as you have actually moved, and ATSKNF does not override the usual restrictions on firing weapons.


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

> What ATSKNF is overriding is the 'cannot move' and 'always count as moving on the turn they regroup'.


Agreed.



> It's not overriding you counting as moving for ACTUALLY moving, it's overriding you counting as moving for simply having Regrouped.
> and
> You cannot fire Heavy weapons after the 3" Regroup move, as you have actually moved, and ATSKNF does not override the usual restrictions on firing weapons.


Wait, what? The 3" move is the regroup move. You regroup and get to move 3" but you don't count as moving thanks to ATSKNF. You can if you wish move another 6", thanks again to ATSKNF, but you'll count as moving then. 



> Yeah, I'm aware of how the rule works and yes, I do think that some Greenwing units are worth taking even in the current environment, hence the suggestion.


Really? Apart from Combat Vets I don't see any non-Deathraven units worth taking (inc Scouts). Its why these changes haven't revolutionised the DA the way some people might claim they have - the non-Deathravens are still overcosted. But that's the points-efficiency finder in me talking.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait, what? The 3" move is the regroup move. You regroup and get to move 3" but you don't count as moving thanks to ATSKNF. You can if you wish move another 6", thanks again to ATSKNF, but you'll count as moving then.


Show me where it says that the 3" move counts as Regrouping.
It doesn't, it just says that after you Regroup, you may move 3" immediately.
That's all it says, and nothing in ATSKNF says that that move doesn't count as moving for shooting purposes.


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

*BRB pg 46:*
'Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal.'

A squad normally cannot _otherwise_ move, meaning it doesn't get to move apart from the 3". 

ATSKNF provides an exception for this (C:SW pg 24):
'Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply...'
They get the regroup move, then can move as normal which will be 6" (or 12" with Jump Packs) and this is added to their 3" move: The 3" move isn't part of their normal movement allowance. 

Thus they don't count as having moved for Heavy Weapons firing unless they use up part of their regular move allowance of 6" because the restriction of 'always count as moving' doesn't apply when they regroup.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stormbrow II said:


> *BRB pg 46:*
> 'Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal.'
> 
> A squad normally cannot _otherwise_ move, meaning it doesn't get to move apart from the 3".
> ...


The 3" move is permitted by a successful Regroup test, but that doesn't mean that ATSKNF nullifies it.
ATSKNF basically says "You don't count as moving just because you Regrouped this turn.", but the 3" move is ACTUAL movement, as opposed to just Regrouping.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Winterous said:


> The 3" move is permitted by a successful Regroup test, but that doesn't mean that ATSKNF nullifies it.
> ATSKNF basically says "You don't count as moving just because you Regrouped this turn.", but the 3" move is ACTUAL movement, as opposed to just Regrouping.


I have to disagree here ... The wording of ATSKNF says to me that they do not count as moving. The word "these" as in "these restrictions do not apply" is the key word. These is a plural and it indicates the two previous assertions earlier in the statement.

They cannot move and count as moving even if they did not. This is what the restrictions are. They do not apply.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

OIIIIIIO said:


> They cannot move and count as moving even if they did not. This is what the restrictions are. They do not apply.


Exactly my point.
They cannot move (overridden, you can now move), and you count as moving even if you didn't (this is overridden, you don't count as moving even if you did not).
However, the 3" Regroup move IS moving, so the fact that you don't count as moving if you haven't moved has no effect on it.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

@ Stormbrow & Winterous. My head hurts, can you please stop now:wink:


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Thank you GW. Its good to see some new updates.

Well found Katie Drake.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> @ Stormbrow & Winterous. My head hurts, can you please stop now:wink:


YOU CANNOT SILENCE THE TRUTH!!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

smitty23 said:


> probably not the right thread and i appologize in advance but have you guys heard anything about the next white dwarf adding rules to use stormravens in all variants of marines? WTF is that shit if so. Sorry if this is common knowledge or something but i play codex marines and personally that would be the worst idea ever.


Play apocalypse, and you can. And they're not that good, even if using non-Super Heavies.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stormbrow II said:


> Really? Apart from Combat Vets I don't see any non-Deathraven units worth taking (inc Scouts). Its why these changes haven't revolutionised the DA the way some people might claim they have - the non-Deathravens are still overcosted. But that's the points-efficiency finder in me talking.


Yeah, I think so. Greenwing units are points inefficient sure, but Deathwing and some Ravenwing are insanely point efficient, so they balance each other out.

An army that's entirely made up of Deathwing and Ravenwing has a hard time dealing damage at range, especially when the majority of the Deathwing units are packing thunder hammers and storm shields. 5th is all about cracking tanks yes, but it's still vital to be able to kill what comes falling out of the burning transports and it's difficult to do that without storm bolters and assault cannons tearing things up. Ravenwing units typically aren't terribly shooty for their cost so I think _some_ Greenwing units are needed, or at least would benefit the army a lot.


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