# Chaos Lord: Which Deamon Weapon to take?



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

As the title says, which deamon weapon do i take?

He will be in a 1500 and/or 2000 pt list, most likely attached to a squad of zerkers.

Pros/Cons i've thought of:

Bloodfeeder
Pros: +2d6 attacks, nuff said
Cons: double the chance to roll a 1

Plaguebringer
Pros: Wound on 4+, reroll failed wounds if opponent has T of 4 or lower
Cons: None, the pros just aren't that great. Maybe im missing the awesome here.

Deathscreamer
Pros: It can shoot d6Assault with pen 3, also MoT ups Invul to 4+
Cons: Shots only have Str 4, but thats about it

Blissgiver
Pros: +1 I, and insta-kills on wounds
Cons: useless against anything with Eternal Warrior, so all Space Marines above Scout rank :laugh:

So guys, make an argument for which is best/most efficient. My list is fairly balanced, so fluff isn't a factor, just pure combat effectiveness.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If you must take a Daemon weapon, take either the Deathscreamer or the plaguebringer.

DS is very vertasile, giving you a potentially deadly shooting phase. it may only be str4, but it can shoot 6 marines dead. The improoved inv save will come in hand up close, where your potential 9 attacks can help swing a combat.

PB is great against tought models. It's added insurance against MCs. The lords I of 5 will trump the likes of Wraithlords and carnifexs. And 4 wounding hits from a potential 9 attacks isn't unlikely. Although, never go in alone. You dont want to be one-hit killed.

The other 2 aren't any use. BF is to random and can kill you pretty quick. And the BG, as you said, with SM as the common army out there, pretty much everything that you would want to insta-kill is protected by it. Other than Dante...for some fucking stupid reason, GW forgot to give the oldest space marine alive EW.


----------



## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

My suggestions would be the Bliss Giver or the Plague Bringer.

Bissgiver is an excellent way to take out enemy characters, especially as the extra I with the MoS makes you faster than most other characters out there, so you can instakill an opponent without taking hits back. Even against Tyrannid MCs, you still have a good chance of getting a lucky wound in, with the large number of attacks you get - an easy way to one-shot a tervigon or mawloc.

Meanwhile, the Plague Bringer's poison attacks means you get rerolls to wound against most smaller targets, and a much better chance to wound larger ones. Against MEQs, you'll end up with about the same average number of kills as with the Blood Feeder, with far less chance of having it go crazy. If you factor in the "going crazy" part, the Plague Bringer actually does more kills on average (2.9 MEQ kills vs 2.8 for the Blood Feeder lord), and you get an extra toughness at the same time. The feeder does much better against T3 opponents however.

If you're thinking about the Death Screamer, I would suggest just taking a sorcerer with warptime and Doombolt instead - just as fluffy, more hits and wounds. The only downside is when your opponent has a Hood. 

As I said, the Plague Bringer is usually a better/safer option than taking a Blood Feeder, though If you happen to have lucky rolls for the feeder, you'll rip through far more lesser opponents, however you'll have to just grin and bear it when the 1's come up.

I hope that helps somewhat


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I'd go the blissgiver. The number of times I've wanted to instant kill something with toughness 6 and instead had to plug my way through it taking wound after wound. Its irritating as hell

Plus the +1 initiative is just great as it means you'll probably strike first and thus have a greater chance of ensuring the nasty nasties dont rip your beserkers in half


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would go for the tzeentchian one. The improved invul is brilliant against all enemies and apart from marines I would say Eldar are the next used race (Around the UK Midlands anyways) and even with the blissgivers +1 initiative most eldar combat heroes would strike before you and if unfortunate enough to face a phoenix lord then unfortunately the lord will die.


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. 

I've decided to go with the Deathscreamer for now. I reread the codex entry, and realized that in addition to the shooty i still get the +d6 attacks in CC. Based on my army i think this will be the best fit.


----------



## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

Take the khorne one, all other chaos gods suck


----------



## prairiehawk (Jul 17, 2010)

wait, since when do all sm have eternal warrior? I though only calgar did


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

prairiehawk said:


> wait, since when do all sm have eternal warrior? I though only calgar did


That was a joke, referring to the fact that they get the most codex-love by far.


----------



## prairiehawk (Jul 17, 2010)

oh haha, im dumb, but yeah they do get codex love


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> As the title says, which deamon weapon do i take?
> 
> He will be in a 1500 and/or 2000 pt list, most likely attached to a squad of zerkers.
> 
> ...


it actualy depends on the role you want for it

the Blood feeder is for Horde control* (dominance i mean*)
Plague bringer is for Chaos lords who wanna be able to take hits and give them back mainly for MC's and vsing hordes that wount be able to do much against T5
Death Screamer is my least fav, and definantly not somthing you want in with Berserkers, if you were running TS's you could since ti would give you more of that epic AP dakka
Blissgiver is what you give your Char hunting lords also works well against Multi-wound troops (like tyranid warriors)


----------



## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

I say khorne, +2 d6 attacks is pretty hard to go wrong with!


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Primarch Lorgar said:


> I say khorne, +2 d6 attacks is pretty hard to go wrong with!


+2D6 +1 :3

he forgot to add in the atatck that MoK gives ya


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Bloodfeeder seems awesome, but i just cant get past the fact that it gives me double the chance to roll a 1, in which case the lord stands there like an idiot getting his face gnawed off by daemons, and then gets his face gnawed off by the enemies he forgot to fight.

It seems that for a Khorne Lord, dual LCs would be a better bet. Thats 5 attacks with re-rolls to wound, and no chance for suicide-by-daemon.


----------



## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Well, the obvious one is Bloodfeeder.. Because it's khorne ... 

But in terms of useful-ness, defo the Blissgiver. Insta-kill some really annoying leaders :so_happy:

Thats just about all slaanesh has to offer the word. Besides maybe a Lash.

EDIT: I hate deathscreamer. Because I hate Tzeentch, Because i hate shooty, Because i love Khorne.


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

> I hate deathscreamer. Because I hate Tzeentch, Because i hate shooty, Because i love Khorne.


nuff said


----------



## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

there's the same chance of 2 one as 2 sixes, so I think it's worth the risk!


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Statistically the Nurgle weapon is the best all round DW. It does great damage against nearly all enemies and has a low chance of self harm, plus the +1T from MoN is very useful in assault. 

All the other weapons are situational at best and suicide at worst. I'm looking at you Deathscreamer & Bloodfeeder!


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

How is Deathscreamer situational? d6 Shooting, +d6 in CC, and a 4+ invul save. if anything its the most well rounded.


----------



## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

I once had a nurgle lord with just MoN and a Plaguebringer take down the Nightbringer... in one round of CC:grin:. That's 150pts that KO'd 360pts.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

*Simple Mathhammer*



Deathscythe4722 said:


> How is Deathscreamer situational? d6 Shooting, +d6 in CC, and a 4+ invul save. if anything its the most well rounded.


*Lord, MoN, DW = 150pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(6/6) + (1)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 4.19 kills.

*VS MEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(6/6) + (1)(4/6)(3/6)(2/6) = 3.86 kills.

*VS TEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(4/6) + (1)(4/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 2.56 kills.

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) + (1)(4/6)(1/6)(2/6) = 2.54 wounds.

Chance of no attacks: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of taking a wound: 1/9 = 11%



*Lord, MoT, DW = 145pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 4.89 kills.

*VS MEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) = 3.67 kills

*VS TEqs:*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(4/6) + (3.5)(4/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 1.86 kills

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
(7.5)(4/6)(1/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(4/6)(1/6)(6/6) = 0.61 wounds.

Chance of no attacks: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of no shots: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of taking a wound: 5/36 = 14%
Chance of taking two wounds: 1/36 = 3%



Vs GEqs and MEqs the difference between the two is almost nil, but the Nurgle DW adds the all important flexibility of being able to deal much better with TEqs and MCs. The Nurgle weapon is also much safer to the user. In the end it's still up to you what you want to use.


----------



## ninja skills (Aug 4, 2009)

situational can be very useful. a nurgle lord is the best all round one you can get but nothing leads a fanking mauvre smashing through all the exposed parts of someones army like a bloodfeeder on wings. 

just use the one that you think best compliments your army and you won't be disapointed (apart from when he kills himself that is!)


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> *Lord, MoN, DW = 150pts*
> 
> *VS GEqs:*
> (Attacks)(To-Hit)(To-Wound)(Armour Save)
> ...


wait... you know Deamon weapons ignore amror saves dont ya ?
and just as a little personal request, could you Math hammer A Bloodfeeder, Blissgiver and a Defult deamon weapon as well (normal Deamon weapon gives +1 S and D6 bounes attacks, Blissgiver causes ID and has the normal D6 bounes attacks and Bloodfeeder gives 2D6 +1 attacks (the +1 is form Mark of Khorne))

nice mathhammering it up though


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Flame80010 said:


> wait... you know Deamon weapons ignore amror saves dont ya ?


Yes I do. I just put the 6/6 in so you could see the full working out. 6/6 = 1 which is the same as no AS. TEqs have a 5+ invulnerable.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

OK here's the full mathhammer. I redid the Nurgle and Tzeentch ones because I made a mistake the first time around. Deconstruction of the data is at the bottom of this post.

Calculations are arranged as:
(Average Attacks)(To-Hit Chance)(To-Wound Chance)(Chance of Failing Armour/Invulnerable Save) = Kills --> Kills taking into account no attacks when rolling a 1.

*Lord, DW = 130pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(5/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 4.72 --> *4.0 kills.*

*VS MEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(2/6) = 3.47 --> *2.9 kills.*

*VS TEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(4/6)(4/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 2.29 --> *1.9 kills.*

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(7.5)(4/6)(2/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(1/6)(2/6) = 1.71 --> *1.4 wounds.*

Chance of no attacks: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of taking a wound: 1/9 = 11%



*Lord, MoK (Extra Attack), DW = 140pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(12)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 5.89 --> *4.3 kills.*

*VS MEqs:*
(12)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(2/6) = 4.14 --> *2.9 kills.*

*VS TEqs:*
(12)(4/6)(3/6)(4/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 2.67 --> *1.9 kills.*

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(12)(4/6)(1/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(1/6)(2/6) = 1.38 --> *1.0 wounds.*

Chance of no attacks: 11/36 = 31%
Chance of taking a wound: 44/216 = 20%



*Lord, MoN (Extra Toughness), DW = 150pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 4.31 --> *3.7 kills.*

*VS MEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(2/6) = 3.89 --> *3.3 kills.*

*VS TEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6+[3/6][3/6])(4/6) + (1)(5/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 2.57 --> *2.1 kills.*

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) + (1)(5/6)(1/6)(2/6) = 2.55 --> *2.1 wounds*

Chance of no attacks: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of taking a wound: 1/9 = 11%



*Lord, MoT (Better ++Sv), DW = 145pts*

*VS GEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(4/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(5/6)(4/6)(6/6) = 5.28 --> *4.4 kills.*

*VS MEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(5/6)(3/6)(6/6) = 3.96 --> *3.3 kills.*

*VS TEqs:*
(7.5)(4/6)(3/6)(4/6) + (3.5)(5/6)(3/6)(1/6) = 1.91 --> *1.6 kills.*

*VS MCs (T6 AS3+):*
(7.5)(4/6)(1/6)(6/6) + (3.5)(5/6)(1/6)(6/6) = 1.32 --> *1.1 wounds.*

Chance of no attacks: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of no shots: 1/6 = 17%
Chance of taking a wound: 5/36 = 14%
Chance of taking two wounds: 1/36 = 3%



*Lord, MoS (Extra Initiative), DW = 135pts*

I'm not going to bother. I can't represent ID in mathhammer. (I could I'm just too lazy). Leave it at home. It's only really worth it against nids, and against MCs you still have to roll a 6 to-wound. People get sucked in by the promise of ID.



*Basically:*
VS GEqs: Tzeentch > Khorne > Undivided > Nurgle
VS MEqs: Nurgle & Tzeentch > Khorne & Undivided
VS TEqs: Nurgle > Khorne & Undivided > Tzeentch
VS MCs: Nurgle > Undivided > Tzeentch > Khorne

All-round Nurgle is the best. Khorne has it's moments of brilliance, but is by no means reliable. Forget about Undivided, 2LCs and MoK is much more useful. Tzeentch is pretty poor, Put a combi-flamer on the others and they will outperform it, you also have a chance of losing 2 wounds in one turn. Again it's still up to you in the end.


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

i wish i could mathhammer like that 

Nurgle will always be good :3 

Khorne rapes but is unreliable at best (you can get like 0-17 (18 if you mount him on a juggernaught) attacks... o.o)

undevided is good if your so skimp on points you cant even afford a mark... but Dual LC Khorne lord will be better

Tzeentchs deamon weapon sucks... nuff said 

Blissgiver is more for multi-wound hunting... against nids its basicly for luck shots against MC's but mainly for combat-based warriors Undevided would be better against hordes then this :3


----------



## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

I don't know about the new rules but arn't all nids immune to ID due to synapse?


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Supersonic Banana said:


> I don't know about the new rules but arn't all nids immune to ID due to synapse?


that was a rule in 4th edition, its gone now


----------



## Stockholm (Jul 6, 2010)

i was allied with a CSM player from our club who runs a khorne lord with a bloodfeeder in the second round of a tournament last weekend. (i know, the heresy!) and he had a beautiful 15 attacks that turned into 10 kills. it was amazing. to be fair, the rest of the time i've played against him, he takes a wound without attacking me each round. :/


----------



## Stockholm (Jul 6, 2010)

Flame80010 said:


> that was a rule in 4th edition, its gone now


only DoC units are immune to ID now. ID is the key to hollowing out the middle of a tyranid list: bye bye warriors!


----------



## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Stockholm said:


> only DoC units are immune to ID now. ID is the key to hollowing out the middle of a tyranid list: bye bye warriors!


DoC...?
and yes... with warriors now 3 wounts each ID is really needed to handle them (well not really... but you get the point)
ahh nvm the funny thing showed up now


----------



## Stockholm (Jul 6, 2010)

DoC = Daemons of Chaos. The nids play so differently now, it's crazy. I like it though. So Blessgiver against the nids!


----------

