# CSM vs. Tau Gunline: What would you bring?



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

If you were facing a Tau army that essentially hides behind 2 ADL, consisting of a ton of fire warriors, 1-2 riptides, 2 of those tanks (hammerheads?) with the big long guns on them, a handful of those scout suits, a bunch of the smaller crisis suits with missile pods, allied with Eldar bringing a Fire Prism tank, what would you bring?

I haven't faced this player yet, but I just can't figure out what I'd bring against him. Any shooting I pop off against him will get a 4+ save thanks to the wall. Any deepstriking units are going to get obliterated before they can assault. In fact, it seems like anything would get obliterated pretty quickly due to the mass of shooting.

Is massing infantry the answer? Have a ton of cultists/daemons on the table who have a large enough wound pool to survive long enough to make it into assault range? Hide in cover holding objectives and whittle away his troops and hope that he focuses on my big scary guys? If I load up on those, that's less points for troops.

What is your strategy, or what would you suggest?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'd mass fast and tough units and try to win the objective game. Nurgle Bikers or Spawn with a Heldrake as backup. Choppy Lord/Sorc in otherwise mediocre units like Vanilla Marines or Cultists in order to force target priority mistakes. Max out on cheap Troops and try to control the objectives with them - the Tau player will eventually have to move if he wants to have control of more than 1.

Unless you're playing over 2000pts then I think double Aegis lines are illegal - you get a Fort and an Allied Detachment - the Allies can't have a Fort themselves. But I could be wrong, I don't have the book with me.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Sethis said:


> Unless you're playing over 2000pts then I think double Aegis lines are illegal


I think the above tau list is 2000-ish points.

I'd go for 2 cheap Hq's (slaan lord, sorc), 4 heldrakes with (2 baleflamer, 2 hades) and lots of ignore cover with nasty Noise marines (5 noise, 1 blastmaster, 125 pts...and spam them) and some cheap cultist squads


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## KahRyez (Sep 7, 2010)

I'd bring templates from flamers to large blast, use screening units to try and get to his line if you can, remember he can only overwatch once with each of his units, so if you can overwealm him with targets you might be able to bog up his gun line.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> a ton of fire warriors


Heldrakes and Blastmasters.



venomlust said:


> 1-2 riptides


Hmmm. Probably worth trying to get some Plague Marines into combat, other than that I'd go for a heavy concentration of Plasma Guns.



venomlust said:


> 2 of those tanks (hammerheads?) with the big long guns on them,


You need to get close or Ignore Cover, ideally. Vector Striking is pretty much ideal, as they have pretty fragile side armour and it bypasses their annoying little Disruption Pod saves.



venomlust said:


> a handful of those scout suits,


Really easy to deal with with Noise Marines.



venomlust said:


> a bunch of the smaller crisis suits with missile pods,


Kind of a bugger, but you can outrange them with Blastmasters which will instakill them on 2s with no armour or cover. The enemy may well have an O'Mmortal Commander out front to tank AP3, in which case send Meltas.



venomlust said:


> allied with Eldar bringing a Fire Prism tank, what would you bring?


Vector Striking's not so good here. Lascannons and Meltas are the order of the day.

Midnight


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Heldrakes would be immensely useful.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

So it could be:

Slaanesh Lord
Steed 
Sigils of corruption
Burning Brand
(155)

Lord Huron
(160)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

10 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
Blastmaster
Icon of excess
(270)

10 Marines
2 Meltaguns
combimelta
Rhino
(205)

5 Havocs
4 Lascannons
(155)

4 Heldrakes (680)

How does it seems?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

neferhet said:


> So it could be:
> 
> Slaanesh Lord
> Steed
> ...


Icon of Excess might be a little on the pricey side. I'm not sure what the Lord's doing - he really needs to have a nasty little CC unit to be Outflanking with, or a couple of Spawn to hang out with.

I think 4 Heldrakes is a little excessive. Three tends to be more than adequate. As such, I'd drop one of the Heldrakes for a bunch of, say, 4 Spawn, to Outflank with the Lord to provide an annoying little unit that appears behind the Aegis Line.

Love the Infiltrating Noise Marines/Havocs though.

Midnight


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Awesome responses, guys. Ty.

Now, too bad I don't have any noise marines and only 1 heldrake... The "to buy" list grows!

Hmm, I'm not finding any sort of Noise Marine boxed set from GW... 15 bucks for a pair of sonic weapons, eh? I guess home-made/converted is gonna happen.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I've yet to play CSM in 6th, but what would you guys say to triple maulerfiends? Pricey I know, but should put the absolute fear of empty gods into the tau player. With some lucky It Will Not Die rolls, they may even make it to combat! :-D


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah - luckily, Noise Marines are some of the easier conversions. A lot of people greenstuff Heavy Bolters into Blastmasters if you extend the barrel. Remember that the Noise Marines in the list given are essentially basic CSM with a weird Heavy Weapon as they all have pretty-much-identical stats and wargear, so you could get a pack of Heresy era Missile Launchers or something and claim it's Archeotech, not specifically Blastmasters.

Midnight


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Icon of Excess might be a little on the pricey side. I'm not sure what the Lord's doing - he really needs to have a nasty little CC unit to be Outflanking with, or a couple of Spawn to hang out with.
> 
> I think 4 Heldrakes is a little excessive. Three tends to be more than adequate. As such, I'd drop one of the Heldrakes for a bunch of, say, 4 Spawn, to Outflank with the Lord to provide an annoying little unit that appears behind the Aegis Line.
> 
> ...


If we drop an heldrake we could just take 5 havocs with 4 plasmaguns and a combiplasma (145) to outflank with the lord.
the remaining points, if we drop the icon of excess (55) can be used to give the big noise unit a rhino and the remaining 20 points can give the lord power claw and meltabombs. 

About scratch built noise: it's really easy. Even with the chaos rhino sprue (the gargoyle heads and the dirge caster) you can convert 3-4 good looking blastmasters


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Good points on the conversions. The gargoyle heads would work out perfectly. I have like, 5 vehicle accessory sprues, so that would be more than enough. Nice. Just need to buy another squad or two of marines.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Or, if you want to make yourself a present

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/EMPEROR'S_CHILDREN_LEGION_KAKOPHONI.html

Those are some serious mathafaking blastmasters!


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Do you know what the battle field looks like? What always takes a junk out of my army is zerkers and apcs. But it sounds like my army is different from your opponents mine mainly focuses on mobile infantry with riptide and broadside support.


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## Turnip86 (Oct 7, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Awesome responses, guys. Ty.
> 
> Now, too bad I don't have any noise marines and only 1 heldrake... The "to buy" list grows!
> 
> Hmm, I'm not finding any sort of Noise Marine boxed set from GW... 15 bucks for a pair of sonic weapons, eh? I guess home-made/converted is gonna happen.


The upgrade pack is 1 sonic blaster, 1 blastmaster and a bunch of heads and other things.

The Sonic Weapons pack is 5 sonic blasters and 1 blastmaster (there's a little x5 on the pic  )


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Haha, yeah I saw that last night when I went to my local store and asked the manager why the hell they charged 15 bucks for 2 guns!

Those FW weapons are nuuuuts!


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

GW has 2 upgrade packages for noise marines. On has a single gun of each type and some peices for the body, armor, head. 
The other has 5 sonic blasters and a blastmaster. Look next to the sonic blasters and there should be a "x5"


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## Bearer.of.the.Word (Aug 11, 2013)

Grokfog said:


> I've yet to play CSM in 6th, but what would you guys say to triple maulerfiends? Pricey I know, but should put the absolute fear of empty gods into the tau player. With some lucky It Will Not Die rolls, they may even make it to combat! :-D


As a Chaos player who goes against Tau far to often believe me when I say- Maulerfiends (as well as any other ground tanks) will die turn 1 against Hammerhead/Pathfinder combos, not to mention if those Riptides have the Las-Cannon blast things (sorry cant remember their name).


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Are Sonic Blasters worth taking?


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

venomlust said:


> Are Sonic Blasters worth taking?


yes


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Excellent. I've never used salvo weapons before, but based on what I read in the rulebook if I move I get the first value in the Salvo X/Y, but can only shoot half the maximum range. If I don't move, I get the second value at full range.

Do I have that right?


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Sethis said:


> I'd mass fast and tough units and try to win the objective game. Nurgle Bikers or Spawn with a Heldrake as backup. Choppy Lord/Sorc in otherwise mediocre units like Vanilla Marines or Cultists in order to force target priority mistakes.


While this may seem good in theory, I have actually found that in practice it is not as successful. While I am by no means an experienced CSM player I have used them on occassion against Tau, IG, and SM armies. The Bikers and Spawn are only so good as the fire they can withstand, and may not survivie the volley of fire the Tau can put out. Using a Heldrake may work, but also I would recommend trying an entire army of Raptors and Warp Talons. I had moderate success with these guys mixing them with some heavy armor for support. Additionally my freind often recommends Mutilators who are good close up and can take a few hits. Might want to check these out, though I am unsure their effectives in the new 6th Edition Codex.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Mutilators, raptors and warp talons would have more issues that what Sethis listed. Thing with tau is you have to deny them fire lanes. Fast options like bikes and spawn out class what you just suggested.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

scscofield said:


> Mutilators, raptors and warp talons would have more issues that what Sethis listed. Thing with tau is you have to deny them fire lanes. Fast options like bikes and spawn out class what you just suggested.


This is true, and their is merit to such tactics. However Scscofield I would pose this question to you. If you wish to deny them lanes of fire then why send in units that will draw fire. Even with their speed Bikers will get shot at; and the DPS of Tau squads is.....large. As for Spawn idk how fast they move but I cannot imagine them moving any faster. 

Therefore, IMHO, I would think using units that can not only jump but use the Deep Strike, Furious Charge, and Choas specific rules to quickly get to their enemies and deal maxamine damage; correct? After reading various artilce on the matter I still conclude that using these units (among others) would help you draw the Tau in CQB.....

This artilce review Warp Talons, and makes a decent arguement for their Deep Strike/Damage ability. I mean if they can take on Obliterators and Tac. Squads (if what it says is true) would that not be critical? (http://warpstoneflux.blogspot.com/2012/11/csm-in-6th-review-warp-talons.html)

Again, Raptors are Vanilla gold, and most CSM players I have encountered seem to adore them; like Anime Geeks to Manga. Accoridng to the article they are even more effective than the Codex gives them credit for; especially with the various "Marks." (http://warpstoneflux.blogspot.com/2012/11/csm-in-6th-review-raptors.html)

I take back the Mutilators suggestion. According to this article they are not as effective as the Codex makes them out to be. (http://warpstoneflux.blogspot.com/2012/10/csm-in-6th-review-mutilators.html)

In conclusion, while I do not profess to be a CSM expert in anyway Scscofield, I cannot help but think that Lanes are not as important as the speed you hit a Tau Army. allow them to develop their lanes of fire, to position on the baord and you can kiss the Tourney good-bye. However, if their is something I'm missibng, I would welcome critique.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

If you deep strike, you can't assault. Tau shoots the unit off the board. Bikes that flat out get cover bonuses. Spawn can run thru terrain like it is not there due to beast rules.

Raptors and warp talons if you do not deep strike are slow compared to both. Mutilators either foot slog across the board, get ferried in a expensive LR or deep strike and stand there with their fingers up their asses.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Interesting, and you make a good point on the Deep Strike with assault; I had forgotten that. You say that the Warp Talons and Raptors are slow in comparison, but if they can jump would that not make them just as fast as the Bikers in their own way? 

I am a firm believe of CQB to defeat the Tau; having foughten my freind many times using mainly Orks or Gaurd. However in the case of the Orks it is more a Horde/Bullet Sponge tactics whereas CSM are more pricey and therefore more valuable to loose. I did read into the Spawn finally, and get the general idea. they are indeed suited for hunting Tau. 

At this point I'm going to leave it at "I'm not enough Experienced with CSM<" punch line and let the topic drop. However I will take your suggestions to heart Scscofield and try to run a mock battle using some freind's miniatures top gage the results in practical use). Best of luck and hope you defeat those Tau brothers.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Planning to play a big game against Tau soon, and have some thoughts. *Caveat: I don't really know their rules or stats other than by observation, but I'll check out their codex. My plans could easily fall apart.* 

With 2 Heldrakes, I feel like my chances of dropping at least one baleflamer template and erasing a huge swath of troops/suits/drones should be pretty good. One drake doesn't seem like enough. A lucky quad gun shot can take it out after it vector strikes, meaning no flamer. Or focused AA the next turn brings it down.

Be'lakor. Invisibility on anything, puppet master on riptides, hallucination on anything, psychic shriek at anything, and forcing morale checks all over the place. Just so many good options! Shrouded, 4+ invuln, eternal warrior. Can swoop into cover and be hit only on snapshots, then save on a 2+. He can also charge a riptide if he has to. Fleshbane+master crafted AP2 and eternal warrior should mean he's killing that riptide before it kills him. Psychic shriek it first, for good measure? Use him as the warlord for -1 to fear tests, such as those due to being charged by himself, the Spawn, or Maulers. +d3 warp charges for each failed morale test means 4 charges for invisibility and hallucination on the same turn, minimum! 6 warp charges on a 5 or 6! Be'lakor can join a unit of cultists on a mid-field objective to have them soak up wounds without needing to be buffed by the Grimoire. This is purely conjecture but Be'lakor seems like the perfect warlord to fight Tau.

Juggerlord w/ AOBF + 5 Spawn. These will slaughter everything if they make it across the board. Be'lakor tossing Invisibility on them is a 4+ in the open, but more likely 2 or 3+ due to terrain. If markerlights can negate this, at least that means they aren't being used against the objective holders, Be'lakor, or heldrakes; the latter obviously being capable of more destruction against infantry lines than any other unit. The lord has no champion to eat the challenge, but he doesn't need one. His 6+ AP2 attacks are gonna force a lot of invuln saves, so that HQ is going down. The Spawn, with 3-8 S5 attacks each on the charge, can wipe out most if not all of the squad they're attacking.

Chaos Lord w/ mark of Slaanesh, Steed, and Burning Brand will outflank and drop at least 1 torrent. Grab one of the units of cultists to outflank with him, and there is a wound pool to try and keep the lord alive long enough to make it to combat. Invisibility from Be'lakor, same story as always. Debatable to give him the Black Mace instead of Burning Brand, but the brand is at least a relative guarantee of inflicting some kills. Surviving long enough to assault is less likely, plus I don't think anything save a riptide is going to pose a threat in close combat. If at least one member of the cultist squad survives the outflanking turn, there will be at least 1 objective holder/denier/linebreaker. The lord can break off and charge on his own if the cultists aren't in assault range, supported by some autogun shooting. This unit needs to be dealt with quickly, because a torrent from the brand is almost as good as a baleflamer against low toughness Tau.

A 10 man squad of noise marines plus icon of excess and 2 blastmasters seems pretty sweet for obvious reasons. Buy them a Rhino w/ Dirge Caster and deploy them outside of it. Send the tank up the board to attempt to deny overwatch to as many units as possible. One more thing coming at the Tau that they have to deal with. They're gonna miss having those overwatch shots.

Deep Strike a squad of 5 terminators: 4 combi-flamers and a heavy flamer. Requires a good scatter result, but if pulled off something is gonna BURN. Invisibility from Be'lakor and they aren't totally fucked out in the open.

I also plan to bring 2 maulerfiends. They can have 2 uses. Fast, cover jumping anti-armor that has to be dealt with quickly or it will rip tanks or buildings apart. I've also been thinking that the mauler is vulnerable to tarpitting, but that can be used as an advantage. If an infantry gunline is the bigger threat to assault units in my army than tanks, tying them up in combat removes their shooting power. I'm sure that Tau have some sort of grenade or something that can hurt it, but if they try Our Weapons Are Useless the mauler can make sweeping advances as a walker. As they're tied up, the Juggerlord + Spawn can charge to mop up the unit with no risk of overwatch shots, or charge something else in the mean time.

Ally in a cheap detachment of Daemons for a Tzeentch herald (grimoire/prescience) or Nurgle for grimoire/FNP plaguebearers. Grimoire can be used on many valuable targets: drakes, spawn, maulerfiends, or plaguebearers hit by markerlights on the home objective. Use it on Be'lakor and he can stand out in the open and get a 2++, guaranteeing he's in range to use powers and get away with it. If they hit him with markerlights he has the buffed invuln to negate it. Prescience can give the Noise Marines with 2 blastmasters twin-linked cover-ignoring boomboom. Use it on havocs armed with missiles and almost any target will suffer.

ADL to give plaguebearers a 2+ if they aren't hit with markerlights. Slap on a comms relay to try and make sure the Slaanesh lord, terminators and drakes all arrive at the same time. If the enemy has a Quad Gun, that's only 1 interceptor attack for 4 targets. It'll be 2 turns before he can shoot it again.

The Warp Storm Table could also fuck with them. Given the amount of template attacks on a successful hit, that could devastate a squad of weak Tau troops. Situational and could totally backfire, but that's Daemons.

I feel like it could be safe to use multiple squads of cultists as troops, due to the amount of bodies I can put on the table and the threat of all the targets listed above. There are relatively few low priority targets, so choices must be made.

Do I have a chance? Here's my 2500 point list: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1470993#post1470993


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Posted my thoughts on your list.

He can buy more interceptor and skyfire than just a quad gun with ease--that's sort of Tau's specialty. You are forewarned.

You don't want Blastmasters to move. Ever. They're expensive and every turn they have a heavy bolter statline (ignores cover, less shots) instead of a S8 AP3 small blast, they're not doing much to earn their points back. They make excellent Fearless anchors to your gunline and can instant death Crisis Suits and such impressively, or blast Pathfinders and Fire Warriors out of their ruins, but don't go moving them around (more argument to drop the Rhino for the Black Mace--an idea I go into in greater detail in my main reply to you, venomlust).


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