# Tyranids vs Outflanking Marine Bike army



## gunslinger107 (Mar 12, 2010)

How do Tyranids deal with an outflanking marine bike army. I have played against a fellow who favors this list and have not had any luck in dealing with it. His 2000pt list consists of the following (note: I am not a marine player, so I may get some of the marine units wrong, bear with me.)

Kahn on a bike

3 squads of 10 marine bikers with melta guns and powerfists

Landraider with 10 storm shield terminators plus a librarian with null zone and psychic hood.

Armor 13 Dreadnaught in a drop pod that lands on turn one(I don't remember what its called).

If you had to face this list with 2000pts of Tyranids how would you deal with it? I have been trying to come up with a solution, but I got nothing. Please share your thoughts.


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## obimoshman (Oct 21, 2009)

So he outflanks all of his bikes??? How does he deploy his landraider.

If answers are yes and in the centre. Then i ask u how many gene stealers do u have because they have infiltrate right?? U just need enough to cover both short edges of the board and have other stuff to occupy his dread.

Because remember outflankers or all reserved armies lose instantly if the opponent can block the table edges and they have to come in :biggrin:

So if u get objective based game mabye try to get him to place his land raider in the centre and then cover the sides with gene stealers and mabye have some gaunts on either side to run up and cover any hole the dreadnaught might make in the lines.

Thats all i got.


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## gunslinger107 (Mar 12, 2010)

To answer your question, he outflanks his Landraider as well as his bikes. Everything outflanks. In regards to blocking the table edge, I have heard about that tactic, but it is my understanding that it does not work. I don't know if GW made an errata for that, but I have heard, that blocking the table edges will not prevent units from coming on the table by outflank.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It will prevent him from coming on except the Land raider which can tank shock onto the board. I would do this and force him to stay in reserves until his Landraider becomes available then he can make a small hole in your lines of stealers which he'll have to funnel all his troops though. Giving you a ice little killing field for your Monstrous Creatures to play in. 

Aramoro


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The tank shock move would not work. The LR would just move through the stealers and the stealers would stay in place, because they only need to move if the LR would end its move on top of them. If this were the case then the LR would be blocking entry for the rest of its army just as much as the stealers.


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## Epatus (May 17, 2009)

gunslinger107 said:


> How do Tyranids deal with an outflanking marine bike army. I have played against a fellow who favors this list and have not had any luck in dealing with it. His 2000pt list consists of the following (note: I am not a marine player, so I may get some of the marine units wrong, bear with me.)
> 
> Kahn on a bike
> 
> ...


Firstly if he has 10 terminators and a librarian in a land raider, he is cheating. The max any land raider can hold is 16 with terminators counting as 2, so he should only have 7 plus the libby.

I play with space marine bike army, and in my opinion outflanking is one of the most over rated tactics in the game. You can try and block table edges as suggested, and it does work if you have enough infiltrating troops. The issue of whether he can tank shock his way through depends more on when his land raider becomes available. If bikes become available before the land raider and can't get on the board, then they are destroyed.

Aside form this the very best thing you can do is stay in cover. If you can survive a round of shooting, which you should, wait until he is close enough and then assault. Assault is space marine bikes biggest weakest. if you can bog down his bikes then you will win.

Whats in your list? Lets see if we can be specific with some tactics.

Also if you want to more about bikes there is a tactica in my sig.

Hope this helps

Ep.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Maybe swamp bikes with crappy units (ala gaunts and sht), drop zoans to kill lr, charge terminators with everything you got;D and hope ure lucky, hive tyrant has some psychic blocking ability? Well should prevent librarian from being much use. And use MC's on dreadnought. Well unless you dont have many MC's ;F 

Probably could just use zoans to kill LR and leave terminators alone for awhile, beasties should eat up bikers.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Counter his outflank with outflank of your own. Decline the board and give him turn 1. use genestalers and an outflanking tervigon troop with hive commander. Use Deep striking harpies with Venom cannons. If he outflanks and goes before you, likely you'll charge genestealers right into his bikes, killing them dead. Just my recommendation.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

blocking table edges is a cheesy tactic and very unsportsmanlike uke:

as Epatus said, hes definetely cheating by taking all those terminators in the land raider, call him on it.

Also, you can only have 9 bikers per unit, 8 normal bikers and an attack bike (bike with heavy weapon), It would number 10 if Khan joined a squad.

Only Khan's unit will have the hit and run rule, so if he hasnt joined a bike squad you should be able to bog down the rest of the bikers in CC which will be their undoing 

Only Khan himself will gain the fleet rule and be able to "run" in the shooting phase even while on a bike, so make sure hes not applying this to a whole squad if hes joined to one.

Also make sure hes playing the outflank rule correctly, you still have to roll to see which table edge it will be.

Other than standard tactics for dealing with the land raider and dreadnought I cant really help as I dont have a tyranid codex :cray:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

zeroblackstar said:


> blocking table edges is a cheesy tactic and very unsportsmanlike uke:


If an enemy puts all his eggs in one basket, I have no problem with smashing the basket. I'm not about to stand there while he loads them into an Egg Launcher (tm) and shoots them at me.

The whole point of wargaming is to counter the tactics proposed by your opponent and resolve your own. If he will use such an easily defeated tactic, why am I obliged to let him resolve it? Maybe next time he'll consider deploying something, instead of holding everything in reserve.


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

Really the only unit I can see being a problem is the LR and terminators, simply because the librarian keeps your zoanthropes from just popping it. But really, hitting the bikes with some genestealers, hitting the dread with a hive tyrant or really any other MC that's half way decent in cc will handly deal with the rest of his army, leaving you a ton of point to either kill the terminators outright, or leave them alone because you control the res of the board.


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## gunslinger107 (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Some good ideas have been offered. I will post a list that I think can counter it, so that you guys can comment. 

In regards to the 10 man unit of terminators in a Landraider being cheating and all, since I am not a Marine player, I probably just remembered it wrong. I have no reason to believe that my opponent was cheating. So it probably was just a 7 man squad with a Librarian.

Thanks again for sharing your comments.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

Sethis said:


> If an enemy puts all his eggs in one basket, I have no problem with smashing the basket. I'm not about to stand there while he loads them into an Egg Launcher (tm) and shoots them at me.
> 
> The whole point of wargaming is to counter the tactics proposed by your opponent and resolve your own. If he will use such an easily defeated tactic, why am I obliged to let him resolve it? Maybe next time he'll consider deploying something, instead of holding everything in reserve.


Outflanking your opponent is a genuine real world tactic. Such as using cover or strategic positioning ect and its most certainly in the spirit of the game. A space marine biker army could very well outpace and outflank the enemy, in fact its their main role.

Blocking off table edges is simply taking advantage of the rules, and in my opinion cheesy tactics like that actually detract from the immersion and are definetely not in the spirit of the game.

Maybe facing an outflanking bike army is quite difficult, but I wouldnt say that you need to stoop to what is essentially unimaginative and dull tactics like table edge blocking. In fact calling it a tactic seems wrong as it would imply some kind of skill in its implementation.

I mean, would you be proud that you won in this way? I wouldnt.

but meh, to each their own...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Tactic does not imply skill. If I was playing someone that left themselves with a massive weakness and I did *NOT* exploit the weakness then I would be pretty stupid. It is like the two-move checkmate in chess, if your opponent hands you the chance then you must do it; otherwise you are just grandstanding and dragging out the game for no reason. People that make such huge mistakes *MUST* be smacked down, it is natural law! :threaten:


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

darklove said:


> Tactic does not imply skill. If I was playing someone that left themselves with a massive weakness and I did *NOT* exploit the weakness then I would be pretty stupid. It is like the two-move checkmate in chess, if your opponent hands you the chance then you must do it; otherwise you are just grandstanding and dragging out the game for no reason. People that make such huge mistakes *MUST* be smacked down, it is natural law! :threaten:


Absolutely, I agree.

But I wouldnt compare foreseeing and executing a decent check mate with blocking off table edges.

One is obvious skill (the checkmate!) and the other is exploiting the swiss cheese that is the w40k rulebook.

Not only that but it just taks the fun out of the game!

Wouldnt you rather kick someones ass properly? :so_happy:


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

zeroblackstar said:


> Absolutely, I agree.
> 
> But I wouldnt compare foreseeing and executing a decent check mate with blocking off table edges.
> 
> ...



You miss his point though. It not a decent check mate, it is a blunder by your opponent. A badly designed army to do a total outflank attack, I much rather get it over with and say next. Yes I could just let him come on board and wipe him out normally, but there is little satisfaction in it, because I know I would tear that army apart without trying with the advantage he has just giving me.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

Flakey said:


> You miss his point though. It not a decent check mate, it is a blunder by your opponent. A badly designed army to do a total outflank attack, I much rather get it over with and say next. Yes I could just let him come on board and wipe him out normally, but there is little satisfaction in it, because I know I would tear that army apart without trying with the advantage he has just giving me.


lol comparing chess to w40k is...challenging so im dropping that.

The point I was attempting to make was that of HOW, and not why.

eg, I wiped him out by using legitimate strategy and not I wiped him out because he made a mistake.

By all means take advantage of a strategic error, its part of the game. But I wouldnt rape the rules in this way and cheese my way to victory, if that is certain players modus operandi, then thats fine.

Just not how I roll.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

gunslinger107 said:


> ...Armor 13 Dreadnaught in a drop pod that lands on turn one(I don't remember what its called)...





obimoshman said:


> If answers are yes and in the centre. Then i ask u how many gene stealers do u have because they have infiltrate right?? U just need enough to cover both short edges of the board and have other stuff to occupy his dread.
> Because remember outflankers or all reserved armies lose instantly if the opponent can block the table edges and they have to come in :biggrin:





zeroblackstar said:


> blocking table edges is a cheesy tactic and very unsportsmanlike uke:...





Sethis said:


> If an enemy puts all his eggs in one basket, I have no problem with smashing the basket. I'm not about to stand there while he loads them into an Egg Launcher (tm) and shoots them at me.
> The whole point of wargaming is to counter the tactics proposed by your opponent and resolve your own. If he will use such an easily defeated tactic, why am I obliged to let him resolve it? Maybe next time he'll consider deploying something, instead of holding everything in reserve.


I completely agree with Sethis here. Completely ruining the opponents badly designed plan is totally a part of the game and should be done as often as possible:good:

He will most likely be furious about it, but after a few days he should understand that _*he*_ needs to rethink his way of playing and adapt, not you.


About blocking the Table Edges against this army take note of the Ironclad Dread that will pop in turn 1 and quite likely flame a bunch of Genestealers, thus creating a wide enough hole for the Bikes to pour in on. As long as 1(!) Genestealer is missing in the wall protecting you from outflank youre toast. Chances are very high that an Ironclad will kill 1 'stealer:angel:




Creon said:


> Counter his outflank with outflank of your own. Decline the board and give him turn 1. use genestalers and an outflanking tervigon troop with hive commander. Use Deep striking harpies with Venom cannons. If he outflanks and goes before you, likely you'll charge genestealers right into his bikes, killing them dead.


This is a fair advice, just beware that he might Turbo boost onto the table and thus utterly foil your "haha" move with the Genestealers....


Do remember that you can put youre whole army in reserve, and seriously consider it against a Bike army if you go second and he decides to outflank all. Even more so if your HT has the +1 to reserve rolls ability. It will both negate his use for outflank and give him a hard time choosing spots for his units to arrive from without being inside your threat range.

The end effect of putting youre whole army to reserve is that the game is a bit shorter, and that you have neglected him his triumph card of choosing where to strike with what:good:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

zeroblackstar said:


> Outflanking your opponent is a genuine real world tactic.


The whole POINT of outflanking is as a secondary attack. It means that you attack their flank *while they are engaging the bulk of your army in a frontal confrontation.*

If there IS no "Frontal engagement" then how the hell do you expect the tactic to work? Your flanking army will be met by the full force of my army, with nothing to keep it facing in the right direction.

If you want to bring the "real world" into this, then I submit that I should be abe to ignore deployment zones if you hold every single thing in reserve. Why the hell would I deploy facing an empty horizon? I'll deploy 19" away from a short table edge, facing it, thanks. More or less the same result as blocking the edge entirely, except this way you get to roll dice.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

of course blocking the table edges isn't exactly a good strategy either. If it fails in one place int he slightest you are in a very bad position, being thinly stretched out along the sides means your opponent can tackle you piece meal. If you think it's an easy way to beat a porrly designed army then your wrong it is very much a poorly designed counter to a poorly designed army as it requires total sucess, there is no middle ground with this tactic. If you fail then you have created the circumstances that outflank is aimed for hitting a small portion of your opponents army where they don't want to be hit. 

It's certainly possible but it's also likely to fail if he gets his land raider in first, tank shocks some bugs out of the way and brings in a very concentrated force. Also this will only work against him once, if he has seen it he will mix things up with some units in regualr reserves as well. 

It is a tactic that will help you win in one situation but dosen;t actually improve your skill as a player, when you run up against partial outflank, which is vastly better, then you still won't have learned how to deal with it. try using other tactics, holding the center, cunning objective placement and bait units to manipulate this army.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

Sethis said:


> The whole POINT of outflanking is as a secondary attack. It means that you attack their flank *while they are engaging the bulk of your army in a frontal confrontation.*
> 
> If there IS no "Frontal engagement" then how the hell do you expect the tactic to work? Your flanking army will be met by the full force of my army, with nothing to keep it facing in the right direction.
> 
> If you want to bring the "real world" into this, then I submit that I should be abe to ignore deployment zones if you hold every single thing in reserve. Why the hell would I deploy facing an empty horizon? I'll deploy 19" away from a short table edge, facing it, thanks. More or less the same result as blocking the edge entirely, except this way you get to roll dice.


I was referring to outflanking in terms of the BBB. If everything outflanks (in GW terms) then obviously there would be no frontal assault, instead the enemy would be being attacked from an unexpected direction, which can be just as effective, and of course is still a proper "real world" stratagem.

You roll at the beginning of the game to determine the game scenario, hence why you have deployment zones. In each scenario you are expecting to engage the enemy on certain terms, eg a headlong engagement or whatever. So by keeping your whole army in reserve your in effect gaining an advantage by being able to see how the enemy has deployed and how best to counter it. 

But in general all the above is trying to simulate real world situations and restrictions. Such as "outflanking" most of your army, is a real world tactic, might be a crap one to you, but it still is.

Lining models up across a table edge is not in any way shape or form trying to adhere to the spirit of the game and is definetely not a viable tactic in a real engagement. Plus its cheese playing in my eyes. Yes its effective and yes your allowed by the rules, but its still a cheap move.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

god this game is way to confusing


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## zas240 (Apr 3, 2009)

Guys arnt we supposed to be helping here not just bickering about weather a tactic is "correct", basicly if the rulebook allows it, do it. It might backfire, but thats part of the fun (normally).
I say go a head and block him.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

zas240 said:


> Guys arnt we supposed to be helping here not just bickering about weather a tactic is "correct", basicly if the rulebook allows it, do it. It might backfire, but thats part of the fun (normally).
> I say go a head and block him.


yeah good point, apologies 

moving swiftly on...


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