# The Lion a loyalist



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Ive just started reading fallen angels again for the second time and came across something which should prove alot towards the lion being loyal.

Alot of people seem to think it was mostly terrans who where sent back to caliban but in fact its mostly calibanites who are sent back and the lion surrounds himself with terrans. Page reference 15 *it had escaped no one that virtually all of the astartes being sent home were from caliban rather than terra.*. Now if the lion was planning on turning traitor and was purging his legion of those who would not follow him then why surround himself with terrans who would be more likely to be loyal to the emperor.

Now heres another point which is even more obvious. its actually decades before the heresy when the lion sends them back to caliban so how would he be purging the legion or even thinking about turning traitor when its decades before the heresy even starts. Page Reference 35 *Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the primarchs mind and as the years lengthened into decades rhunours and speculation had begun to circulate.*
these were the thoughts of chaplain Nemiel on the embarkation deck.

The first chapter is all about luther being sent home to caliban and it says on the top of the page its the 147th year of the great crusade. 
the next chapter which is up to date states at the top of the page that it is now the 200th year of the great crusade just when the lion finds out about the heresy.
53 years have past since luther was sent home befors the heresy. Enough said i think.

Thoughts please.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

It won't be enough to convince those people who cling to the theory that the Lion was a fence-sitter im afraid...

I could pick apart both those points right now, so it won't do much good convincing the people who are convinced the Lion was some form of traitor or fence-sitter. 

But notable finds none-the-less.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

If you've read Angels of Darkness; the issue of terran vs Calibanite Dark Angels is first raised there.

The problem I have is that neither of the Dark Angels books characterise the Lion well or offer any real insight into his reasoning... he pretty much just comes across as a bit of a douche.

If I read into the book and effectively run with some subtle hints and themes [that also play out accross the HH series.]

Caliban is tainted to its core by chaos. The knights of the world hunt chaos beasts and collect lore on them [also in some cases collect the beasts themselves.] There entire feudal system is intertwined with chaos you might say.

Some calibanites are uneasy with the Imperium moving in and altering and harvesting their planet [unaware? of its chaosy core.]

The primarchs are unaware of Chaos [a running theme in the HH, the emperor doesn't tell them and basically keeps asking them to ignore hints of chaos etc.] However many of them are slowly becoming aware of malevolent forces [whatever they are since obviously daddy says there are no evil god type things]

So presumably the Lion [and bearing in mind his early years as basically a savage] starts to wonder if the things on Caliban ore connected to other things he may have encountered, perhaps the misgivings about the imperium make him begin to distrust the Calibanite natives.

[Id imagine his formative years would have given him a healthy dose of paranoia]

So yeah, I think that may be a part of the whole thing.

Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

I agree i havnt seen any written evidence yet where it shows the lion was a fence sitter. apart from Astelan in Angels of darkness, and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.


Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> .Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.


Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish _Nemesis_.


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

What i do agree is the lion is angling to become the new warmaster after horus has turned traitor. He gave the seige engines to perturabo. Nobody knew perturabo had turned traitor. Perturabo was on his way to Istavann at that stage as part of the loyalist force.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.


Yes. Also; no. A fallen angel's perspective is going to be clouded with bitterness for a start. As I said, i think rather than a fence sitter the Lion was more concerned by what he percieved as disloyalty in his own legion.



Turkeyspit said:


> Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish _Nemesis_.


Its a really good book, and it started the themes that the two HH books run with.



Boganius Maximal said:


> The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??


My reading of that was that it was intended to be a purely 'twist' ending. That after all these marines had died trying to keep the engines out of the hands of chaos, they end up being handed over to someone that we [the audience] know is going to turn traitor.

In other words, if we didn't have the meta knowledge about Petaruabo and only had the information from the HH books, that action would seem perfectly fine.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

One reason that all the Calibanites were sent home is obvious, the Lion wanted them there as a power base. The more Terrans he took with him on the frontlines the more of them would get killed, and the Calibanite Dark Angels who were loyal to the Lion first and Emperor second would back him up in the event he would betray the Imperium.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> One reason that all the Calibanites were sent home is obvious, the Lion wanted them there as a power base. The more Terrans he took with him on the frontlines the more of them would get killed, and the Calibanite Dark Angels who were loyal to the Lion first and Emperor second would back him up in the event he would betray the Imperium.


I couldnt disagree with this more.

That all happened 53 years before the heresy started so as i say again how would the lion be purging his legion 53 years before the heresy, when there was no such thing as the heresy then. LIon purged his legion because he found out that luther had got jealous and knew about the atomic bomb on the lions ship and did nothing about it untill the last minute when he had a change of heart.
Lion was a bit paranoid so sent back most of the calibanites with luther as he was a bit afraid that luther had support with them.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Or he wanted the Terrans to be wiped out any way because he resented that he would have men who had not fought alongside him and were not totally loyal to him in his Legion. Just because the heresy wasn't occuring then doesn't mean he didn't want to purge the Dark Angels of those he couldn't count on.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Boganius Maximal said:


> The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??


As I understood it, Lion was simply vying for Perturabo's support for when the time came for the Emperor to appoint a new Warmaster. It wasn't much of a secret that many of the Primarchs disagreed with Horus being named Warmaster, or for the position to be created at all. Lion wanting to become the next Warmaster isn't unusual in the slightest, since ambition and the drive to succeed are encouraged in SM's.

But the Lion had no idea that Perturabo was on Horus' side - that is what made the ending to that book such a huge cliffhanger. I remember reading it the first time and saying aloud "Oh no you DIDNT!?". I too am looking forward to seeing what happens to those siege engines, and whether or not we will have a chance to see Lion's reaction (talk about your epic facepalms).


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Thankfully, there are several years of war left. Plenty of time to see if the Lion was holding back to see who won, before really committing himself.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I honestly hope he was a fence sitter... it just makes for a much better storyline


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> Nobody knew perturabo had turned traitor.


Or did they? Regardless, the amount of blind trust the Lion put in his 'cousin' Perturabo by giving up the Siege Weapons was either due to his arrogance (by thinking himself as the better Warmaster than Horus) or simple stupidity.



the.alleycat.uk said:


> Yes. Also; no. A fallen angel's perspective is going to be clouded with bitterness for a start.


If anything, I would say a loyalist Dark Angel's perspective is going to be more clouded with bitterness.



the.alleycat.uk said:


> In other words, if we didn't have the meta knowledge about Petaruabo and only had the information from the HH books, that action would seem perfectly fine.


Not really. As explained in _Fallen Angels_, the Lion knows that if Horus is to succeed in his rebellion he is going to have to confront the Emperor on Terra, and its implied that to do so he will need the siege engines that were present on Diamat. The Lion has seemingly defeated Horus' rebellion with a handful of men by securing the Siege engines for himself. Now, these vital weapons he simply gives up to another Primarch, one long known for his bitterness and complicated relations with the other Primarchs after 5 Primarchs had already publically turned rogue. To play it safe, wouldn't you think it would be more logical to keep the Siege Engines yourself, as after all you are sure of your own loyalty, but the loyalty of most of your brother Primarchs could easily be called into question...



FORTHELION said:


> That all happened 53 years before the heresy started so as i say again how would the lion be purging his legion 53 years before the heresy, when there was no such thing as the heresy then. LIon purged his legion because he found out that luther had got jealous and knew about the atomic bomb on the lions ship and did nothing about it untill the last minute when he had a change of heart.
> Lion was a bit paranoid so sent back most of the calibanites with luther as he was a bit afraid that luther had support with them.


Whilst I don't necessarily agree with _Lord of the Night_ here, your point is moot. It doesn't matter that the *Horus* Heresy was 53 or how ever many years away. The Lion may have been planning his own rebellion or subtle ploy (likely to secure the position of Warmaster for himself) by this point. It has nothing to do with the *Horus* Heresy. And by the way, it is also an assumption to say that the Lion banished Luther and Co. back to Caliban because of the atomic bomb incident (in fact we don't even know if the Lion knew about that), we don't know for sure why Luther and Co. were sent back.



Turkeyspit said:


> As I understood it, Lion was simply vying for Perturabo's support for when the time came for the Emperor to appoint a new Warmaster.


That is what the conversation between the Lion and Perturabo tells us yes, but were they both being truthfully honest? 



Turkeyspit said:


> It wasn't much of a secret that many of the Primarchs disagreed with Horus being named Warmaster, or for the position to be created at all. Lion wanting to become the next Warmaster isn't unusual in the slightest, since ambition and the drive to succeed are encouraged in SM's.


Actually most of the Primarchs either accepted Horus' appointment or realised that Horus was the best and most obvious choice for Warmaster. There weren't many who truly disagreed with and/or challenged Horus' promotion. The Lion didn't challenge it publically, but in his arrogance he thought that he deserved the mantle himself and that he would have made a much better job than Horus at it. 



Turkeyspit said:


> But the Lion had no idea that Perturabo was on Horus' side


Surely though at a time when 5 Primarchs had already publically rebelled (several of which were thought of as some of the most loyal) and declared war on the Imperium, you wouldn't exactly be that trustworthy of many other Primarchs? Especially a distant, bitter and brooding one who never really had good relations with anyone... 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Thankfully, there are several years of war left. Plenty of time to see if the Lion was holding back to see who won, before really committing himself.


Thanks Aaron for keeping us in suspense and fuelling the rumours! 



Boc said:


> I honestly hope he was a fence sitter... it just makes for a much better storyline


I agree, it makes a much better and more intriguing storyline in my opinion as well.

It even seems to fit with the Lion's character and personality, given his arrogance and desperation to prove his worth for the mantle of Warmaster during the ending of the Great Crusade and opening stages of the Heresy, I wouldn't put it past him to try and preform some other reckless feats during the Age of Darkness.

Its even perfectly plausable that given his frustration with the Emperor for seemingly ignoring him as a potential candidate for the position of Warmaster and outright choosing Horus instead that may push him into doubt...

The _Collected Visions_ also claims that Terra had no contact at all with the Lion and the Dark Angels throughout the opening stages of the Heresy and presumably throughout the Age of Darkness until the climax of the Siege of Terra, just what was he doing for 7 years? This just further adds fuel to the ever-growing fire of suspicion surrounding El'Jonson.

There is definatley a lot of fishy goings-on where the Lion is concerned, I have no doubt that he was up to something...


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

@ cote
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Lord of the Night here, your point is moot. It doesn't matter that the Horus Heresy was 53 or how ever many years away. The Lion may have been planning his own rebellion or subtle ploy (likely to secure the position of Warmaster for himself) by this point. It has nothing to do with the Horus Heresy. And by the way, it is also an assumption to say that the Lion banished Luther and Co. back to Caliban because of the atomic bomb incident (in fact we don't even know if the Lion knew about that), we don't know for sure why Luther and Co. were sent back.

I think i know where your comming from here but the only problem with your explanation is that there was no such thing as warmaster when luther was banished. The Emperor was still at the head of the great crusade pulling all the strings. It was about 40 years after luther went back that Ullanor came about and the Emperor left.

IM not saying that im right in what im saying but all the arguments ive had against my theory just doesnt add up in the time line.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> I think i know where your comming from here but the only problem with your explanation is that there was no such thing as warmaster when luther was banished. The Emperor was still at the head of the great crusade pulling all the strings. It was about 40 years after luther went back that Ullanor came about and the Emperor left.
> 
> IM not saying that im right in what im saying but all the arguments ive had against my theory just doesnt add up in the time line.


Okay fair enough. But that still doesn't stop the Lion plotting his own rebellion or ploy prior to the Heresy (basically what I said in my last post minus the bit about the Warmaster).


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Perhaps a new HH book will come out and ALL will be resolved.

Or maybe typical GW will not tell the story and still leave us guessing at what happened in the HH. Still!! :hang1:


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

The simple thing of it is, as the lore stands:

There has been no suggestions that the Lion was 'sitting' on the fence.

There have been several suggestions that he began to stop trusting the Calibanite Dark Angels and came to rely more and more on the terran Astartes.

There is however plenty of mystery around what happenned to the Dark Angels during the Heresy itself and why the Lion started actiong like such a douche towards his own chapter.

The lion is certainly paranoid, self-reliant and insular... so I don't much see him craving a Warmaster post nor siding with Horus.

What I could see [again, based on all that has been written to date] is him deciding that f**k horus and maybe f**k the emperor too...

But as Aaron says, plenty of story left to tell.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> The simple thing of it is, as the lore stands:
> 
> There has been no suggestions that the Lion was 'sitting' on the fence.
> 
> ...


I think the fact that a Fallen Angel (Astellan) that was not tainted by chaos and warped up really suggests another look towards what was going on with the Lion and his legion.

I would also say that for in order for the Lion to go running to Perturabo the most distant and perhaps jelous of the primarchs "for support when the time comes" to be a craving for the Warmaster position.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> The simple thing of it is, as the lore stands:
> 
> There has been no suggestions that the Lion was 'sitting' on the fence.


Although there is the account given by Astelan which does challenge the validity of the account that the Dark Angels cling to. We know for sure that the Dark Angels (both Calibanite and Terran) that were sent back to Caliban during the Great Crusade percieved themselves and Caliban as betrayed by the Lion, not the other way around.

The shere amount of mystery and shere lack of information further feeds the theory that the Lion was up to something fishy during the Heresy. Its a commonly accepted *assumption* now that the Lion was in fact some sort of 'Fence-Sitter' or was up to something naughty during the Heresy, I would be very suprised if the BL doesn't work into that and further include it in more novels. Because lets face it, if anything they are definately making sure that the mystery and suspence surrounding the Lion and the accusations he faces from fans are maintained. _Descent of Angels_, _Fallen Angels_ and _Angels of Darkness_ are all proof of that at least.



the.alleycat.uk said:


> There have been several suggestions that he began to stop trusting the Calibanite Dark Angels and came to rely more and more on the terran Astartes.


Although _Call of the Lion_ seems to challenge this viewpoint. Although maybe that was just an individual case.



the.alleycat.uk said:


> The lion is certainly paranoid, self-reliant and insular... so I don't much see him craving a Warmaster post


He is also arrogant. And says himself that he craves the position of Warmaster, which he thinks will have benefitted the Imperium as a whole.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I've never seen the Lion as a traitor. Not before i read the two HH novels, and especially after i read them. From the very things he says, thinks and does in the novels convince me he is loyal. And even though it seems to have been forgotten, i will never forget that in the original fluff for the Seige of Terra, it was a combined Dark Angels and Space Wolf fleet hours away from Terra to break the seige, if your sitting on the fence you don't commit your fleet with another ones to help break a siege. In newer fludd the Ultrasmurfs seem to have once again been given more limelight and are now the Legion alongside the Wolves, but even then its said the Dark Angels arent far behind


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I've never seen the Lion as a traitor. Not before i read the two HH novels, and especially after i read them. From the very things he says, thinks and does in the novels convince me he is loyal. And even though it seems to have been forgotten, i will never forget that in the original fluff for the Seige of Terra, it was a combined Dark Angels and Space Wolf fleet hours away from Terra to break the seige, if your sitting on the fence you don't commit your fleet with another ones to help break a siege. In newer fludd the Ultrasmurfs seem to have once again been given more limelight and are now the Legion alongside the Wolves, but even then its said the Dark Angels arent far behind


Though Horus was successful in bringing down the walls he was pressured by time. This creates an assumption that Horus was forced to lower his shields in a daring attempt to fight the Emperor. If this is the case, I don't think the Lion would have just sat there and waited to see if Horus would have won if he indeed was a "fence sitter." It might have been during this time that the Lion made his choice as Horus made the most fatal mistake. Could the Lion have simply gone all the way to save Horus? Well I would say yes, however that could have been to great a risk.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Lion couldn't have known that Horus would make that move. And the very reason Horus made that decision was that the gods told him two full loyalist fleets were inbound. Surely the Lion wouldnt join his fleet with the Space Wolves, would have surely been a better move to enage the Space Wolves so they couldnt get to Terra therefore buying more time. Depending on which fluff you go on that is. On the old one the Ultramarines were nowhere near Terra, Horus deliberatly positioned them as far away as possible so they wouldnt be able to bring the considerable size of their legion to battle, the very pressence of the Blood Angels turned the battle completely. 

To summise at the point of the seige the Lion had 3 choices depending on his loyalties in my opinion.
1: He is a traitor. He engages the Space Wolves to stop them breaking the seige and giving Horus more time.
2: He is Loyal. Join his fleet with the Wolves to break the seige. Which is exactly what i think he did.
3: He is sitting on the fence like some people believe. The most logical choice is to take no part in the Siege at all and simply occupy his legion with another task until it is over.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I think that Lion somehow sensed that Luther was hiding something and he cannot be trusted anymore next to him. Lion was also seen staring at Zahariel on few occasions after that, so he must have sensed something in them. I still dont think Lion knew about the bomb incident, he must have been furious if that was the case. This happened way before Horus came warmaster. Lion said they were sent back to put speed to astartes training/recruiting, dont think this was the reason. 

On Caliban Luther and his men indeed managed accelerate process of putting new astartes to field. Maybe Luther was disappointed for been acting like his father all those years and suddenly when Emperor came their whole lives changed including raping their planet. But still no word from Lion, so he surely was pissed at them and they could only sit at home doing almost nothing. Call of the Lion gave some insight to some of these new recruits. They came eager to fight and these old vets didnt like their direct approach. Instead of respectful diplomacy it was just surrender or die. 

Lion must have tried to rise in power second to Horus himself, that surely must have been reason for giving these gifts to Perturabo. He wasnt generally disliked like so many of his other brothers, so i cant see any other reason. 

Angels of Darkness still even when its older novel, best of these three. It actually gave readers some thinking and showed Astelan as loyal astartes and not as traitor. He so honestly even under serious torture and psychic examinations still gave opinions in way he saw what happened before. It simply made and still would perfect sense about Lion and his bunch. He might have gone mad over the years, but still think he was speaking what he thinked. Now we dont have no idea where these novels are going to and will following novel about Dark Angels be a megahit novel, which makes more sense to all this. It could be but only if it comes from Mr Thorpe.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I would be dissapointed if they did make the Lion a traitor in the end or as good as a traitor by sitting on the fence. To me it just doesn't fit, giving the siege engines to Perturabo was just a twist ending for the readers, was the Lion trying to gain supporters for when he was going to try and become the new warmaster. I dunno, giving the traitor legions 1 more legion and primarch is a bit much (although one could argue the loyalists have Alpharius Omegon technically), especially since he's literally one of the only Loyalist primarchs who could really come back.


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## Xenocide (Aug 19, 2010)

The loyalists would only have Alpharius-Omegon on board if their 'loyalty' involved the destruction of the entire human race because aliens told them to. Who knows what's down the line. If Dan Abnett is writing it then the Lion may well turn traitor because some Eldar farseer gave him ice-cream.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> To summise at the point of the seige the Lion had 3 choices depending on his loyalties in my opinion.
> 1: He is a traitor. He engages the Space Wolves to stop them breaking the seige and giving Horus more time.
> 2: He is Loyal. Join his fleet with the Wolves to break the seige. Which is exactly what i think he did.
> 3: He is sitting on the fence like some people believe. The most logical choice is to take no part in the Siege at all and simply occupy his legion with another task until it is over.


Or he could have been a fence sitter and made way with the Wolves as a ploy. When they reached Terra, if the loyalists were winning and beating the traitor fleet back somehow then he could lend his support and help to crush them. However if the traitors were winning, then the Lion's own fleet is now poised in a pincer with the traitors, set to wipe the Space Wolves out and land yet another crippling blow as reinforcements to the loyalists are crushed.


Personally I don't see the true problem, Johnson has always been arrogant, feels he is better than many, and had his own agenda that he kept to himself. Would it really be such a surprise if that agenda would lead to him trying to take power himself, or siding with Horus in a bid for power where it was denied him by the Emperor? Its not as if there would be no reason for him to turn; wanting to be warmaster but that was handed off to the Emperor's favorite. Being kept in the dark about things, because the Emperor was so forthcoming with information that the primarchs should have been in the know about.


Xenocide, what in the many hells are you talking about anyway?


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## Xenocide (Aug 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Xenocide, what in the many hells are you talking about anyway?


:grin: No problem, I'll clarify:

1. The supposition that Alpharisius is some exotic species of loyalist to the Imperium by actively working against it so that Horus triumphs, brings about the extinction of humanity, and ultimately destroys chaos. 

2. The fact that he is doing this because_ *some aliens told him to*_ and he guesses that's what the Emperor - *a being who has dedicated his entire existence to unifying and protecting humanity* - would really want him to do.

3. If I have to accept 1 & 2 as canon, then I can accept the Lion turning traitor for ice-cream.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

But isn't the second one wrong though? He didn't do that because some group of aliens told him to, he made the choice of his own accord due to what he had seen. Wasn't the whole point for him to be the one to make the choice, not for it to be forced on him by anyone?


Anyway, going on about Alpharius and his choices have no bearing on this thread or topic so lets stick to it.


The Lion turning traitor or staying loyal because some aliens offered him something might have merit if there was any fluff to support it in any way. If you can find some then great, if not then all that from you is similar to whining.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Xenocide said:


> :grin: No problem, I'll clarify:
> 
> 1. The supposition that Alpharisius is some exotic species of loyalist to the Imperium by actively working against it so that Horus triumphs, brings about the extinction of humanity, and ultimately destroys chaos.
> 
> ...


Ah i see... you're on drugs


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Xenocide said:


> :grin: No problem, I'll clarify:
> 
> 1. The supposition that Alpharisius is some exotic species of loyalist to the Imperium by actively working against it so that Horus triumphs, brings about the extinction of humanity, and ultimately destroys chaos.
> 
> ...


I think that you might have went to the wrong thread, I saw you writing on the "Legion" thread, so you might have accidentally went to this one. This one is about the Lion and his legion the Dark Angels and the probability or improbability of him being a traitor/fence watcher.:victory:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I dunno, giving the traitor legions 1 more legion and primarch is a bit much


Being a traitor is not necessarily the same thing as joining Horus. He could have been some form of traitor without joining Horus' rebellion.



Xenocide said:


> 1. The supposition that Alpharisius is some exotic species of loyalist to the Imperium by actively working against it so that Horus triumphs, brings about the extinction of humanity, and ultimately destroys chaos.
> 
> 2. The fact that he is doing this because_ *some aliens told him to*_ and he guesses that's what the Emperor - *a being who has dedicated his entire existence to unifying and protecting humanity* - would really want him to do.


Both those points are merely assumptions at this time.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The Emperor protects humanity thats true but he actively denied the existence of Chaos when revealing it to his sons could have made things so much better, they could have worked against it and been more aware of the forces at work around them.

Besides Alpharius isn't a fool. If those aliens did trick him he would have seen through it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No hes not mixed up, i mentioned Alpharius on the last page. Saying that if you make the Lion a traitor you could technically make Alpharius a loyalist in their own way.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Ive just been informed by cote that there is a new short story comming out next year by Aaron demski bowden about the dark angels fighting against the night lords. So this should also give a bit more evidence that the lion was loyal. He has now faught against the sons of horus and the night lords. how many more traitors does he have to fight in order to prove his loyalty.
From what evidence we have so far, for someone who is supposedly sitting on the fence he seems to be doing alot of fighting against traitors.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Is this Night Lords fighting against Dark Angels on HH timeline? If not then it doesnt prove anything. And anyway Night Lords had their own things going and they were very independent from other traitor legions. Lots of things have changed since then.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah its part of the heresy. its a new horus heresy book called the age of darkness due out next year. a collection of short stories.
Child of the emperor would be able to fill you in more on the details.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Dark Angels being engaged with the Night Lords Legion in the Eastern Fringe has been on the cards for a long time now. Hinted at in many sources (_Fulgrim_ and _Collected Visions_ to name but two), but never fully confirmed. It seems that ADB will be writing a short story to some degree on the conflict though. 

After all, the majority of the First Legion were stationed in the Shield Worlds (which to my knowledge are in the Eastern Fringes), and the Night Lords were sent by Horus to the Eastern Fringes to cover the flanks of Horus' forces as they advanced on Terra and to eliminate Imperial support from vital Forge Worlds in the galactic east. 

But ultimately Jonson engaging the Night Lords on any scale (it may only have been small skirmishes, we don't know yet) in the galactic east doesn't really go anyway to prove Jonson's loyalty, he may have just been acting in self-defence, or became a fence-sitter after his Legion fought the Night Lords (The Age of Darkness was 7 years remember) possibly after realising that Horus dominated the Galaxy? We simply don't know yet, and don't have enough information to draw any meaningful conclusions, and probably never will.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Good point cote.

But can anyone give me some written facts from where all this fence sitting came from? or is it just someone came up with an idea one day and it escalated?


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Read Angels of Darkness, its a must to understanding this discussion. Also if you discuss things from Fallen Angels and Lion in general there is this other perspective to all things and it comes from Astelan. Its the best book about Dark Angels and in overall one of best BL has released.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

I have read it, dunno how Astelan could say the lion was a fence sitter since he was sent back to caliban 15 years after lion was found and had no word from him till the heresy was over and jonson returned.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

We have:

-Primarchs rebelling
-Legions turning to chaos
-Calibanites rebelling
-The Lion being much more separate from his legion than the other primarchs are from theirs
- The Lion giving weapons to Perturabo and striking Russ

There is quite a bit of scope for the Lion to be seen as a douche, a fence sitter or a loyalist with issues in the setting we are given.

I would not be surprised if the Lion goes back to Caliban thinking it has turned to chaos and the Calibanites have heard of the heresy and think the Lion has or is going to turn and they have a big fight. Not sure where the fallen and 'chaosy' Luthur fit into that, but i would not at all be surprised.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Lion punching Russ thing is a wild wild connection, it was a fair hit and they in the end became closer than ever and were seen as some of the closest friends amongst the Primarchs.

I still find the Peturabo thing baffling tbh. He had no idea he was a traitor at this point, it was just a cruel twist considering all the effort he put in to stop Horus from gaining the weapons and gave them to Pertuabo to gain his vote for when he bid to become the next warmaster. 

Just the very way the Lion speaks, how he acts and what he thinks throughout the two Dak Angel HH books make me certain he is a loyalist. Just got to wait for the HH books to prove me right now


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Just got to wait for the HH books to prove me right now


I doubt the HH series will ever prove his loyalties, it will probably leave it open to speculation. The Lion being some form of traitor or 'fence-sitter' is one of the most debated and common theories regarding the Primarchs.

GW/BL don't usually like to kill such heated debates/theories.  I wouldn't be suprised (in fact I find it quite likely) if after the HH series we end up with more mysteries and speculation created than solved, which to me is a good thing.


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## zas240 (Apr 3, 2009)

Ok, this is old cannon, but is the story that the Lion, and Russ combine their fleets, and head off to Terra, but Russ wants to stay and protect the forgeworlds (thus earning him their respect and naming a tank after him), and the Lion wants to rush off to terra? seems silly for a fence sitter to speed there, considering he would want to see who was defiantly winning before dedicating his forces if he was a fence sitter.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well thats what i think aswell, plus it added to the brotherhood that the Wolf and the Lion shared, side by side to break the siege and thus save the Imperium. But others are of the opinion that the Lion wanted to be there so he could commit his force to whoever it appears was winning. Although i still think thats a bit risky as adding his forces wouldn't gurantee victory to whoever he joined and the Lion isn't the type to make rash decisions like that. It would be much more safe for a fence sitter to simply sit back and 'defend' Imperial worlds, if Horus won he could then attack those worlds and link up with the traitor forces, if Horus lost, well he continues to defend those worlds and then link up with other Imperial forces


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Just to clarify, i am not suggesting that the relationship between Russ and the Lion indicated that the Lion was a loyalist or traitor.

What i am saying is that a person on Caliban may be given the following information:

- Some legions are turning against the Emp
- The Lion gave munitions to one of those legions
- The Lion struck a loyalist primarch

That same person may perceive the Lion as being a traitor to Caliban (on the basis of the events in the 2 HH Dark Angel books) , then a traitor to the Emperor, basically a side hopper looking for the best option.


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