# What Flyers Mean to Your Army Build



## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Given the addition of flyers into 6th edition. This adds a whole new level of play to the battlefield. Before, there were things such as skimmers that stayed a little ways above the ground, but flyers are above _everything_. In fact, they're meant to fly over models to drop of bombs and what not. What I'm wondering is, does this change the way you will build your army?


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Not really, all it means is that you should be thinking about adding ways to take them down (a hydra in my case). Tbh most people tend to ignore taking them in my experience, and some of them, like the dark eldar's one, are pretty weak.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Yes actually 

My next purchase is gonna be 2 Stormravens and some guys to stick inside, with the rest of the army being fire support elements


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Yes. I was surprised when the Ork Bommer kit came out, not expecting anything new for Orks for a long while. Once I get enough boyz painted up (need at least sixty), I'm building up my flyer and deffkopta squadrons.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Flying MCs and Flyers basically wreck my Sisters army. Unless I take Allies (and maybe a Fortification) I've got no options in the army itself to handle those things effectively. I know a lot of folks are probably going to be happy that they can bring Allies with their Sisters again, but I always played my army pure so this actually bugs me a little. 

Guess I really will be putting them on a shelf for while.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm thinking of adding a pair of Dakkajets to my ork force. Besides that I already thinking of having a Flakkagun on top of my gargant I'm planing.

For my eldars I haven't still figured out what options they have.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Aside from finding out how to mount a demolisher cannon in an aa turret? Badly. Running bikes, aside from melta and democannon I have no anti vehicle coverage. I now need to come up with aa coverage in an army with no heavy weapons and relies on mobility with all heavy weapons choices filled. Might be looking into replacing fast attack with storm talons with skyhammers though.

Or just entirely redesign my army into a flyer/mobility counter list.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Shattertheirsky said:


> Tbh most people tend to ignore taking them in my experience


The 6th edition rulebook just came out and people are still trying to figure out how basic components of their army work. Isn't it a bit early to make that sort of call?


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

LTKage said:


> The 6th edition rulebook just came out and people are still trying to figure out how basic components of their army work. Isn't it a bit early to make that sort of call?


I was wondering this as well. The rulebook has been out for all of two days where there was a set of guidelines for flyers. So I'm not sure where the experience would come from. 



Zion said:


> Flying MCs and Flyers basically wreck my Sisters army. Unless I take Allies (and maybe a Fortification) I've got no options in the army itself to handle those things effectively. I know a lot of folks are probably going to be happy that they can bring Allies with their Sisters again, but I always played my army pure so this actually bugs me a little.
> 
> Guess I really will be putting them on a shelf for while.


The allies is one option. I'm no expert on SoB (I've never seen their army rules as I've had no interest in them), but it seems ever SoB player here feels the same way. Are there no units that can take a missile launcher? With the flakk missile, that will help. If not, there's always snap shots.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> The allies is one option. I'm no expert on SoB (I've never seen their army rules as I've had no interest in them), but it seems ever SoB player here feels the same way. Are there no units that can take a missile launcher? With the flakk missile, that will help. If not, there's always snap shots.


Currently no army has rules to buy the Flakk Missile (that I am aware of at least at this time).

Either way the Sisters only missile launcher is the Exorcist Missile Launcher. Sadly it's also the armies only way to "reach out and touch" something past 36" (especially if that something is got an armor value). The army has access to Melta/Multi-Melta/Heavy Bolters but they don't cut it against vehicles at range, especially ones that outpace the army.

Furthermore, snap-firing anything at a flyer (or flying MC) is not a reliable way to handle them. It's fine for a fun game or two if you know you don't have more than 1-2 to deal with by the average list in my area has anywhere from 2-4 flyers/flying MCs BEFORE 6th Edition dropped, so now it's quite possible to get even worse now that the rules are here. And to try and take that one with three tanks that randomly generate shots and will need 6s to hit the darned things? Not happening.

And maybe it's just the way I see my army but for me allies are a no go. It's been a long road finding the perfect build for the army and how I like to play them. To need to gut out this balancing act between units to make room for another army just doesn't work. Same for taking a fortification.

So for me, and the way I play Sisters, they are going on a shelf until they get some more serious updates than this.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

It means i've got to hurry and scratchbuild three more Night Scythes to play my all flyer list because there's no way i'm giving games workshop $500 to play it once and make my group hate me. The rules make them seem too awesome not to take; although we'll see how the limited (?) mobility makes them play. If they can't be pointed at the things I want them to shoot they might not be so great after all...


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I was wondering this as well. The rulebook has been out for all of two days where there was a set of guidelines for flyers. So I'm not sure where the experience would come from.
> 
> 
> 
> The allies is one option. I'm no expert on SoB (I've never seen their army rules as I've had no interest in them), but it seems ever SoB player here feels the same way. Are there no units that can take a missile launcher? With the flakk missile, that will help. If not, there's always snap shots.


No missle launchers in the SoB army, so the only options for a purist (I'm not, I'll be using allies and/or fortifications so I don't particularly mind) are either ignoring the flier (not a great option if the mission allows fast attack to be scoring) or wasting a lot of shots hoping for a 6's and either a good pen or 3 glances.


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Aside from finding out how to mount a demolisher cannon in an aa turret? Badly. Running bikes, aside from melta and democannon I have no anti vehicle coverage. I now need to come up with aa coverage in an army with no heavy weapons and relies on mobility with all heavy weapons choices filled. Might be looking into replacing fast attack with storm talons with skyhammers though.
> 
> Or just entirely redesign my army into a flyer/mobility counter list.


The bike army charging into the face of enemy bombers and ground support is giving me some serious invasion of poland imagery...

But honestly, if your army is mobile enough, I'd be interested to see if you could just shrug off aerial bombardment and slip through the screen into the ground support and objective takers?


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Me and my mate have played like 3-4 games with flyers in the last few days! Its summer, not much to do except game!


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## Steaknchips (Dec 28, 2009)

In complete contridiction to the no one bothers with flyers comment I'm gong to be trying a fatewaver + 4 other flying MC list to see it fares. 1/3 chance to knock them out of the sky if you can hit them. Flying MC have 360 shooting arcs while having a slow enough min flight distance to make them manouverable. 

I've also heard several people talking about all flying necrons. I guess we'll see over the next few weeks how good they are. Personally I can see flyers making games more rock paper scissors.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

As ever I think the key is going to be balance. Going all flyer will pose a lack of ability in some area, I just don't know which yet. They definitely seem durable though.. 3 hull points on most?! All flyers will be fun, but once the edition is in full swing I don't know about effective.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

mahavira said:


> No missle launchers in the SoB army,





Zion said:


> Currently no army has rules to buy the Flakk Missile (that I am aware of at least at this time).
> 
> Either way the Sisters only missile launcher is the Exorcist Missile Launcher. Sadly it's also the armies only way to "reach out and touch" something past 36" (especially if that something is got an armor value). The army has access to Melta/Multi-Melta/Heavy Bolters but they don't cut it against vehicles at range, especially ones that outpace the army.


Now I'm confused. Do SoB have some sort of missile launcher or don't they? If they do, you don't need separate rules to take flakk missiles. You declare you're taking them just like you decide whether you're shooting a frag or krak missile. The points come from taking the missile launcher itself and the specs for the flakk missile are in the back of the BRB.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> Now I'm confused. Do SoB have some sort of missile launcher or don't they? If they do, you don't need separate rules to take flakk missiles. You declare you're taking them just like you decide whether you're shooting a frag or krak missile. The points come from taking the missile launcher itself and the specs for the flakk missile are in the back of the BRB.


The Exorcist Missile Launcher isn't like the standard Missile Launcher Space Marines get. It's a 48", S8, AP1, Heavy D6 weapon mounted on a tank. It only fires Exorcist Missiles (S8, AP1).


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The Flakk missile is not available to any codex at this time either. It says it is a option that can be purchased. No one is able to purchase it at this time.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> Now I'm confused. Do SoB have some sort of missile launcher or don't they? If they do, you don't need separate rules to take flakk missiles. You declare you're taking them just like you decide whether you're shooting a frag or krak missile. The points come from taking the missile launcher itself and the specs for the flakk missile are in the back of the BRB.


No, they don't have "missle launchers". They have a tank called an exorcist with exorcist missle launchers, which have completely different stats (d6 shots at S8 AP1) and no ability to take flakk missles (or frag for that matter) and no skyfire.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Overwatch is the end of assault armies. Orks, Nids and Daemons are unplayable as they'll never reach combat.

Flyers are the end of all things. You'll never hit one, let alone take it down. They're just impossibru to even aim at.

Can someone explain this to me?

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Overwatch is the end of assault armies. Orks, Nids and Daemons are unplayable as they'll never reach combat.
> 
> Flyers are the end of all things. You'll never hit one, let alone take it down. They're just impossibru to even aim at.
> 
> ...


I'm feeling the hurt over here. My fatecrusher list is a COMPLETE joke now, and the only thing I have capable of handing my buddies ridiculous necron flyers is a bloodthirster, which he focuses down right away. Snap fire and removing from the front makes slow crushers take even LONGER to get into combat.

Guess it's time for plaguemarine/epi.


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## kain1989 (Dec 1, 2009)

With my orks, I have all three bombers, and I'm excited to pull all three on the table to see what they can do. I can't say this for other flyers, but I'm pretty sure that they'll just be tougher landspeeders. Where you really don't want to shoot at them, but they do just enough damage to make you have to deal with them.

Now that infantry will be more abundant, I'm so glad to see my burna bomma will be put to good use!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Overwatch is the end of assault armies. Orks, Nids and Daemons are unplayable as they'll never reach combat.
> 
> Flyers are the end of all things. You'll never hit one, let alone take it down. They're just impossibru to even aim at.
> 
> ...


Overwatch is BS1. Orks actually Overwatch better than Marines. Especially Shoota Boyz in a full sized Mob. Their numbers actually improve their ability to fill the wall with bullets.

I think Overwatch is the end of MSU squads ruling the board though. The chances of losing too many models to Overwatch and then breaking or failing the charge is too much for most units. I think we may be seeing a return of 10 Marine Squads again.

Flyers can only be shot at via Snapfire if you aren't a flyer or don't have Skyfire. Basically it's like shooting at a low flying aircraft. Sure you can see it, maybe even aim at it, but without the right systems or the ability to fill the air with a signifigant amount of lead you won't hit it. Hence you fire at it via BS1.

Of the two the Flyers is the one that hurts my army the most. Unless I change my troop squads to be full 20 Sister Squads, my chances of pegging a flyer aren't too good. And with some of the Flyers having AV12+ the only things I have that can hurt them are the Exorcist (which I'll admit I do get lucky with occasionally) and the Multi-Melta.

And while I take two TL Multi-Meltas (on Immolators) they're incredibly fragile now (AV11, I'll be honest, these things rarely reached turn 3 before, now they'll be lucky to reach turn 2!) in my 2K lists, and three Exorcists they all have the same problem: they only hit on 6s now. Sure the numbers look good on a calculator but when the average list in my area had 2-3 Flyers/Flying MCs in it BEFORE the edition change, it's a lot to rely on to reliably handle these things. And at 1.5K levels all I've got to rely on are my Exorcists which were my go-to solution for a lot of vehicle suppression in the past.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Does it change how I will build armies?, no, not at all, not even in the slightest, I build models on the principle of "ooooh I like that model", so I don't care about fliers or combating them


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## jaqenhgar (Jul 2, 2012)

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not Midnight but assuming you're not:

20 Orks charge a marine tac squad. the orks have moved 6" and can charge an average 7" but between 2 and 12". They can fire their pistols/shootas at the marines before assaulting if they want to risk killing a couple at the front, lets say they don't. The 10 marines snap-fire 18 bolter shots and a bolt pistol at the orks. On average lets say 3 hits due to bs1. 1 or 2 orks get killed. There are still 18 orks left to kill the marines in combat. This is assuming no marine dies to ork fire before assaulting.

OK with flamers you will take more wounds but if they are taking flamers they are not taking meltaguns so your battlewagons/other transports are safer. 

To me it seems fairly balanced. You take a couple casualties (if that) going in, for a slight improvement in charge distance.

Assaulting through difficult terrain you roll 3 dice and add the two lowest together, whereas before you rolled two and took the highest. Before it was not uncommon to fail an assault from 4" away, now I haven't done the maths but it seems more likely you would get into assault with the new rules. Has anyone done the maths on this yet?

On the flip side you charge 20 Ork shoota boyz, with 10 assault marines. 40 shots at bs1 means 6-7 hits. Thats say 3 wounds and 1 dead marine. The marines can re-roll there charge distance so can likely rely on a charge of about 9" (off the top of my head, not sure about the exact maths). So 12" move, 9" assault means they can assault from 21" away.

Charge ranges got more random but on average bigger. To compensate the target has overwatch fire. I think it's great actually, you've got to decide whether to risk it and go for the assault knowing that if you roll low you are going to lose a couple of models. You get the merest hint of the risk your troops are taking charging into the guns...awesome!

Not sure how the flyers will pan out but with lack of maneuverability it may be hard to focus them on your enemies battleline, especially if their guns are fairly short range like assault cannons. So limited control on one hand and harder to hit on the other. Take some twin-linked weapons (like rifleman dreads) and your chances of hiting with each shot just went form 1 in 6 to 11 in 36. That's nearly a third and with 4 shots on that thing you will prob hit a flyer. Not beyond the realms of possibility.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> I'm feeling the hurt over here. My fatecrusher list is a COMPLETE joke now, and the only thing I have capable of handing my buddies ridiculous necron flyers is a bloodthirster, which he focuses down right away.


Except, y'know, Fateweaver has Skyfire with his Bolt of Tzeentch, and can shoot a different target with his Daemonic Gaze (almost all Flyers are lightly armoured, especially as you're Deep Striking and then moving 24" per turn to hit rear armour), and can ALSO Vector Strike.



> Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not Midnight but assuming you're not:


I'm referring to the fact that some people have gone wild over Overwatch and Flyers, claiming that 6s to hit on Overwatch is game-breaking against assault armies and that 6s to hit on Flyers is game-breaking in that you'll never kill a Flyer, ever.


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## jaqenhgar (Jul 2, 2012)

Yeah I don't think it's game-breaking. I think it will add a new twist, which may affect some armies more than others. Guess we won't know how much effect until more games are fought. Having my first game of 6th tomorrow and can't wait!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I'm referring to the fact that some people have gone wild over Overwatch and Flyers, claiming that 6s to hit on Overwatch is game-breaking against assault armies and that 6s to hit on Flyers is game-breaking in that you'll never kill a Flyer, ever.


Never hit a flyer? No, I'll hit. I just play an army that has a hard time hitting things like Flyers though due to short range being the place my army wants to be, and Flyers being a LOT faster than I can be. Don't get me wrong, I love my army, and the Exorcist is one of my favorite tanks in the game, but trying to peg reliable result out of a vehicle that is inherently unreliable (Heavy D6! It makes you excited when you roll 6, and horribly disappointed when it comes up 1) and then use it to hit something like Flyers just isn't a good plan.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Zion said:


> Overwatch is BS1. Orks actually Overwatch better than Marines. Especially Shoota Boyz in a full sized Mob. Their numbers actually improve their ability to fill the wall with bullets.
> 
> I think Overwatch is the end of MSU squads ruling the board though. The chances of losing too many models to Overwatch and then breaking or failing the charge is too much for most units. I think we may be seeing a return of 10 Marine Squads again.
> 
> ...


So far in all the games that i've played of 6th, overwatch hasn't made any significant difference at all.

I suppose if you play around 50 games or so, there might be a game in there somewhere that overwatch actually makes a difference once or twice. basically it has no effect on most armies unless you get super lucky, and against hordes, it might kill 1 or 2 gaunts or orks.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Zion said:


> Never hit a flyer? No, I'll hit. I just play an army that has a hard time hitting things like Flyers though due to short range being the place my army wants to be, and Flyers being a LOT faster than I can be. Don't get me wrong, I love my army, and the Exorcist is one of my favorite tanks in the game, but trying to peg reliable result out of a vehicle that is inherently unreliable (Heavy D6! It makes you excited when you roll 6, and horribly disappointed when it comes up 1) and then use it to hit something like Flyers just isn't a good plan.


Then don't use your exorcists to shoot flyers, use something else


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Then don't use your exorcists to shoot flyers, use something else


Hurhurhur. Very clever. Unfortunately in my current army they're the best thing I've got for taking ranged shots at things with an AV value. Up close the Multi-Melta works well enough (when it hits) but then I'm dealing with other problems: namely getting close enough to hit the flyer without losing what is essentially a fancy Razorback.

For other options I'd need to invest in allies and essentially scrap my All Sisters army for some hybrid build (which appeals to some but I liked the , but if I'm going that route I might as well just put them on a shelf and focus on something less frustrating than compromising with playing an army I don't actually like playing.

Yes, it is weird, but I like to play competitively with an army I enjoy rather than one the crushes skulls the best.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah just scrap it, I mean between all those boltguns, heavy bolters, meltas and multi meltas sisters don't have even one weapon capable of taking out flyers, and heaven forbid you use allies as obviously allies are ONLY going to be used for AA work, no other reasons.

I started feeling sorry for sister players and actually believed tyranid players and eldar players were the most whiny bitches over 6th, now I can't care less about sisters, you have ways within your codex to fight flyers, if you don't want to take them shut your mouth and suffer for it like anyone else will.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Bolters do nothing to most Flyers. Meltaguns and Multi-Meltas are not only short-ranged, but also one shot. Relying on getting a single six before rolling for damage is a fail of a plan, to be honest.

Meh, looks like Exorcists and massed glancing via Heavy Bolters. Sure, you need 12 Heavy Bolters to inflict a single glance, but if you spam enough squads you'll be just fiiiine.

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Most flyers does not equal all

Meltas have short range?, no friggin shit Sherlock, guess your gonna have to manoeuvre to get in range, and multi-melta having 24" is more than enough range to hit a flyer, or are we assuming all flyers will stay 25" away? And every single shot will miss?

You people rely on averages waaaaaaay too much, just roll some friggin dice and stop bitching about your shitty sisters


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I never said all Flyers, but Necrons, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard all have at least one AV11+ Flyer, compared to Necrons and Orks for AV10 (Tyranid Harpies and Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes of Chaos are more vulnerable to small arms, but less vulnerable to anti-tank weapons).

Yeah, because if I played Sisters, I'd gladly roll with 6 Multi-Meltas in order to try and take down a specific unit type used in a select number of armies. That's bringing down maybe 1 Flyer per turn, on average (averages ARE important, otherwise you could argue that running a 2k points list consisting of 30 Spawn, a bare Lord and bare-bones 10 CSM in 2 squads on foot is good because you could roll all 6s for your attacks).

Sisters really are screwed by this - if you want to take Allies, it's shoehorning you into taking Imperial Guard rather than one of the other Allies you may want to take because you like them.

Midnight


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> You people rely on averages waaaaaay too much, just roll some friggin dice and stop bitching about your shitty sisters


This. And I've been playing Sisters since 2nd ed.

Against AV10 flyers (Dark Eldar, Orks), the torrent of shots from Retributors maxed out on Heavy Bolters and Bolters will work. Only hit on a six when moving with a heavy weapon ? You only hit flyers on a six anyways ... so, this will be what I'm going to try first.

Against AV11 flyers (Marines, Necrons), I'd go for Dominion with four twin-linked Melta guns. That's 8 rolls to hit the thing ... So, you're telling me you need to get close to the flyer do to this ? Figure what, flyers are coming your way anyways, stupid things need to move at least 18'' and can only make one turn for a maximum of 90 degrees. So, if they want to shoot you, they'll be coming your way unless they're hovers as well.
Also, Sisters have always been a short- to mid-range fire shooting army.

Exorcists to support this, and HK missiles on my Rhinos / Immolators for another pot shot.

Sisters will be able to take down flyers, it might just need some getting used to, or a change in tactics. 
And most of all, I believe we all need to play a fair amount of games of 6th edition first before we start to whine about this army or that.
Peace.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Sisters aren't screwed, that's just bullshit, yes it might be harder big woopy fucking doo, tough shit, its not like flyers are going to be that spammed, you'll most likely never see them as much as assumed or they probably won't even do much, nobody cares, sisters can kill flyers without comprising the entire army build, all the races can, it just means you change and adapt.

Actually scrap the adapt part, people can't be arsed to do that, they want easy solutions to everything because they believe everything should be equal, your all communists basically


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> You people rely on averages waaaaaaay too much, just roll some friggin dice and stop bitching about your shitty sisters


Averages are the best way to compare two different options in a variety of scenarios. Not to mention it helps give you a stronger overall list. It's not everything, but being able to predict roughly what your army can and can not do is very important, and using averages is how most of us do it.



MidnightSun said:


> I never said all Flyers, but Necrons, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard all have at least one AV11+ Flyer, compared to Necrons and Orks for AV10 (Tyranid Harpies and Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes of Chaos are more vulnerable to small arms, but less vulnerable to anti-tank weapons).
> 
> Yeah, because if I played Sisters, I'd gladly roll with 6 Multi-Meltas in order to try and take down a specific unit type used in a select number of armies. That's bringing down maybe 1 Flyer per turn, on average (averages ARE important, otherwise you could argue that running a 2k points list consisting of 30 Spawn, a bare Lord and bare-bones 10 CSM in 2 squads on foot is good because you could roll all 6s for your attacks).
> 
> ...


Let's also not forget that the Storm Raven and the Storm Talon (the two Marine flyers) ignore the Melta rule. So you need to drop an AV12 vehicle on a D6. That means you go from penetrating nearly (5+ on 2D6) everytime you manage to hit, to only doing it roughly a third of the time. 



Sworn Radical said:


> This. And I've been playing Sisters since 2nd ed. _Congrats. That doesn't make you better at playing them in 6th. It just means you've had your models longer._
> 
> Against AV10 flyers (Dark Eldar, Orks), the torrent of shots from Retributors maxed out on Heavy Bolters and Bolters will work. Only hit on a six when moving with a heavy weapon ? You only hit flyers on a six anyways ... so, this will be what I'm going to try first. _It's a nice idea but a number of us play in tournaments or play balanced lists we generate ahead of time before even going gaming. Your method only works if you build a list around what your opponent brings._
> 
> ...


Comments in _italic yellow._ Don't get me wrong, I love my army, and wouldn't own half the models I do now if I didn't, but I loved playing a pure Sister list, and for the time being I don't see it as a good army. Maybe it's just my opinion, but it's not one I'm going to change overnight. Call me slow to change or accuse me of being stuck in my ways but I just don't agree that the Sisters are as powerful as they were a month ago.


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## Meldon (Dec 21, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Does it change how I will build armies?, no, not at all, not even in the slightest, I build models on the principle of "ooooh I like that model", so I don't care about fliers or combating them


 
I fully agree with you, I to choose the units thats goes into my army based on the coolness of it. I know it´s not the best way to build an army but I usually get a good fight and a fun game out of it


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

We found out recently that you can Krak grenade flyers to death as well. I did it to a Dark Eldar Razorwing and it was funny!

Since every sister squad has them (I think) you cold bombard the fuckers when they get too close.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Stephen_Newman said:


> We found out recently that you can Krak grenade flyers to death as well. I did it to a Dark Eldar Razorwing and it was funny!
> 
> Since every sister squad has them (I think) you cold bombard the fuckers when they get too close.


They've got them, but only 1 model in a squad can throw a grenade during the shooting phase. And you can't assault zooming flyers.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

It certainly seems that flyers are meant to be countered with flyers. I'm not sure how much fun it would be to play against the number of flyers a necron or IG player can bring to the game. Flying MC's are less scary since you down them if you can hit them not wound them so torrenting them can work.

At the points levels we have all gotten used to playing at most armies who can bring flyers can realistically only bring one or two due to points cost. Most armies who can access flyers will probably (in the short term) need to take a flyer of their own, if for nothing else than anti-flyer protection. try to go second so that your flyer comes in once theirs is on the board, target it & hopefully off the board or onto the next target. 

There is also the option to spend 100 points on a defensive line & a single quad gun... again, not really a good solution to any kind of flyer spam.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Zion said:


> Congrats. That doesn't make you better at playing them in 6th. It just means you've had your models longer.


Yes, of course. And thanks for the congrats. 
But it does also mean I didn't whine about the army (one of them) I choose to play since 1994 (when they were first released IIRC).
You have to pardon me, but almost 90% of the recent posts from supposed Sisters players on these boards are endless rants and whines about how they've been nerfed or crippled again. There are a few notable exceptions, like people coming up with fresh and inventive army lists etc., but most posts are just more groans and ramblings.




> Don't get me wrong, I love my army, and wouldn't own half the models I do now if I didn't, but I loved playing a pure Sister list, and for the time being I don't see it as a good army. Maybe it's just my opinion, but it's not one I'm going to change overnight. Call me slow to change or accuse me of being stuck in my ways but I just don't agree that the Sisters are as powerful as they were a month ago.



I hear you, really, and can absolutely understand where you're coming from. Yet, I still rest my point that 6th edition is way to new as of now to drop the guns and surrender. We all need to get into it first, have all the rules settle in, see how they actually work out on the battlefield. Then, and only then, can we possibly review (for good or ill) if an army (any army) really has been seriously screwed by the new rulebook.
And as a sidenote ... I'd love to play my 'Stealer Cults again, yet even 6th edition doesn't allow me to. So, I'm happy I'm still being able to field the Sisters / Ecclesiarchy at least. It's not like our models for them have been made obsolete.

And, as for the general flyer theme ... I do believe most armies will find some means to deal with them in time, Sisters among them. And, if nothing else helps, it sure helps to remember that your opponents flyer is not your main objective. Sometimes, avoiding units is the way to go as well.


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

Played my first game of the new rules yesturday. My opponent had that DE Flyer. 

It destroyed a whole unit with one well placed shot but that didn't bother me. The rest of the game it could hardly shoot anything because I made sure I was within 18" of it so it just flew over my units. 

One turn it went off the board into ongoing reserves as well. I just ignored it and focused on the rest of his army.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The fact that Flyer must start the game in reserves does mean a flyer heavy army will turn out quite randomly and this might be enough to discourage someone taking a lot of flyers if they cannot affect reserve rolls. Makes things like the Astropath good though.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sworn Radical said:


> Yes, of course. And thanks for the congrats.
> But it does also mean I didn't whine about the army (one of them) I choose to play since 1994 (when they were first released IIRC).
> You have to pardon me, but almost 90% of the recent posts from supposed Sisters players on these boards are endless rants and whines about how they've been nerfed or crippled again. There are a few notable exceptions, like people coming up with fresh and inventive army lists etc., but most posts are just more groans and ramblings.


Not everyone has had the fortune of playing an army since it's release (I didn't even know about 40K until the early 2000's myself).

And "supposed Sisters players"? Really? Either someone has and plays the army or they don't. I've yet to see anyone claim to play an army for any sort of reason, but then again maybe I'm missing the point on why someone should do it.

As for the nerfing and crippling: I've only got one issue with the current Sisters rules. There isn't anything that can reliably handle flyers and flying monstrous creatures. It doesn't effect everyone the same way but we already had a lot of those in armies (2-3 in about half of the local armies) and in addition to playing casually I also participate in tournaments. And the inability to add something to my list to handle these sorts of things bugs me. 

And before brings up Allies (again): they should an option, not a requirement to solve problems.




Sworn Radical said:


> I hear you, really, and can absolutely understand where you're coming from. Yet, I still rest my point that 6th edition is way to new as of now to drop the guns and surrender. We all need to get into it first, have all the rules settle in, see how they actually work out on the battlefield. Then, and only then, can we possibly review (for good or ill) if an army (any army) really has been seriously screwed by the new rulebook.


I'm not throwing in the towel on ever playing Sisters again, but right now there are two things that bug me: 1. The mech heavy meta I have in my area that requires me to always have them in Rhinos (which to be frank I'm getting tired of looking at) and 2. The fact that the best solution is to either Spam Heavy Bolters, hope for Rending and cross your fingers it all works, or to ally something in. 

And despite anything that seems to the contrary I'm a very analytical person. I don't jump to conclusions, nor do I rely on gut feelings to make choices. I spent a lot of time dealing with rumors about the new edition and had been reading the rules a good 2-3 weeks prior to release. And now that I can see the whole picture and see that there isn't anything in my FAQ (or anyone who doesn't have a Hydra Flak Cannon's FAQ) to help remedy this early edition problem. Will stuff change? Certainly! But for the next few months it's not looking good for me, at least in my ability to bring an effective, cohesive force that I enjoy playing with my Sisters of Battle.



Sworn Radical said:


> And as a sidenote ... I'd love to play my 'Stealer Cults again, yet even 6th edition doesn't allow me to. So, I'm happy I'm still being able to field the Sisters / Ecclesiarchy at least. It's not like our models for them have been made obsolete.


No, the models haven't been made obsolete, but they are great as an anti-mugging device if in the right kind of case!



Sworn Radical said:


> And, as for the general flyer theme ... I do believe most armies will find some means to deal with them in time, Sisters among them. And, if nothing else helps, it sure helps to remember that your opponents flyer is not your main objective. Sometimes, avoiding units is the way to go as well.


I agree that in time we will, but with the change of Rhinos to something that won't last the game, and the number of large blast templates many fliers can bring (along being a T3 army), I don't think ignoring them will be an effective strategy. At least not for me in the setting I play. Heck, under the new rules right now my worst matchup is with a local player who runs a Valkyrie Guard list. 9 Valkyries aren't something you can ignore and hope they go away.



Aramoro said:


> The fact that Flyer must start the game in reserves does mean a flyer heavy army will turn out quite randomly and this might be enough to discourage someone taking a lot of flyers if they cannot affect reserve rolls. Makes things like the Astropath good though.


It also means a rise in people putting Comm Links on their Fortifications and/or taking the Skyshield.

The Stormtalon can "escort" another unit that comes in from Reserves (giving you a free Outflanker if you have it escort an outflanking unit) and with the new reserve table everything hits the table no later than turn 4 anyways.


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## Erik_Morkai (May 2, 2011)

mmm Rumors of missile launchers getting Skyfire. I sense a tremor in warp...

The hate for Long Fangs will grow exponentially.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Erik_Morkai said:


> mmm Rumors of missile launchers getting Skyfire. I sense a tremor in warp...
> 
> The hate for Long Fangs will grow exponentially.


What rumors? It's a thing in the rulebook, but none of the FAQs let any of the armies have access to it.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Didn't want to start a new thread so thought I'd post in this one. What do you guys think of the Ork Aircraft, I'm going to be converting one out of an old model and wanted some thoughts on the three types.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Zion said:


> What rumors? It's a thing in the rulebook, but none of the FAQs let any of the armies have access to it.


I'm pretty sure there's not going to be a FAQ because if you have a missile launcher you have access to flakk missiles. It's just another option like selecting frag or krak missiles.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I'm pretty sure there's not going to be a FAQ because if you have a missile launcher you have access to flakk missiles. It's just another option like selecting frag or krak missiles.


Except if you look in the main rulebook it specifically states that the Flakk Missile is available to some armies as an *upgrade that may be purchased*. Since there is no points cost, and no FAQ added it to any army, no army may purchase it. To put it simply, you can't have it because there is nothing that says you actually have it.

EDIT: Bolded for emphasis since people keep skipping past that part in their actual rule books.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Zion said:


> Except if you look in the main rulebook it specifically states that the Flakk Missile is available to some armies as an *upgrade that may be purchased*. Since there is no points cost, and no FAQ added it to any army, no army may purchase it. To put it simply, you can't have it because there is nothing that says you actually have it.
> 
> EDIT: Bolded for emphasis since people keep skipping past that part in their actual rule books.


Yes I've been sulking about this since I got the book and noted my distinct lack of flyers. Thinking about a house rule.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Hmmm, yes, I suppose it does say that now that I read carefully. Anywho, I would think a simple remedy would be to charge 5 points or 10 points if you want to be able to take flakk missiles then.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I'm betting it would be more along the lines of 25-30 points, 5 points would be a joke.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

scscofield said:


> I'm betting it would be more along the lines of 25-30 points, 5 points would be a joke.


I dunno. You're already paying around 10 points normally to take the missile launcher in the first place so adding another 25 to 30 points means that a lascannon now becomes a cheaper option and the only benefit is that you can now shoot at flyers with your normal BS. That'd be a pretty steep price to pay. I'd just stick to snap shots and spend the points elsewhere. I feel they'll just add it in as an option like taking frag or krak missiles or they'll do a small point charge of 5 or 10 points.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Making it 5 points would negate the reason to buy fortifications or anything else with the Skyfire rule beyond missiles, it's too cheap and very easy to spam. If they did make it 5 or even 10 points SW would laugh their asses off. 

Edit: Many of the marine codexs can get ML for free, so 5 points is a joke.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I dunno. You're already paying around 10 points normally to take the missile launcher in the first place so adding another 25 to 30 points means that a lascannon now becomes a cheaper option and the only benefit is that you can now shoot at flyers with your normal BS. That'd be a pretty steep price to pay. I'd just stick to snap shots and spend the points elsewhere. I feel they'll just add it in as an option like taking frag or krak missiles or they'll do a small point charge of 5 or 10 points.


I'm stating the obvious here, but the New DA Codex that's coming (or whatever army it is) will give us the answer to what points that option will cost....I doubt there'll be FAQ/errata's forthcoming on this subject, so the 'simple remedy' for the armies with current Codexes will be 'suck it up and accept that Flyers will be dominant'.

Me, I play IG predominately so have the anti-Flyer role covered to an extent, but Necrons especially will be a chore to deal with I think, and IG Flyer-heavy lists as well.

Doing a count of the 15 Gamers in my group there's about 100 Flyers...Vendettas/Valkyries/Vultures/Scythes/MC's with Wings mainly.

Hmmm, a bit daunting actually:biggrin:


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

This thread is full of so much bullshit it's like a goddamned beef farm. 

So needing a 6 to hit and a 6 to glance to take off a whopping single hull point (mind you need to take off 3 generally) is fine because SoB can just get over it and try harder? FFS could you be more ridiculous. If you think 6th edition didn't break SoB then someone better send a chiropractor over to your house right now because you are clearly just sucking your own wang.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Yes the SoB are fucked for the most part, is this really a new thing though? I look at it this way, when they get a new codex it will most likely become a high end list. GW seems to like to 1up each codex they post.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> This thread is full of so much bullshit it's like a goddamned beef farm.
> 
> So needing a 6 to hit and a 6 to glance to take off a whopping single hull point (mind you need to take off 3 generally) is fine because SoB can just get over it and try harder? FFS could you be more ridiculous. If you think 6th edition didn't break SoB then someone better send a chiropractor over to your house right now because you are clearly just sucking your own wang.


It honestly depresses me to be looking at shelving my Sisters. Mind you I wasn't winning tourneys with them but I'd given people some damn hard games to beat me with a codex that's supposed to auto-lose.



scscofield said:


> Yes the SoB are fucked for the most part, is this really a new thing though? I look at it this way, when they get a new codex it will most likely become a high end list. GW seems to like to 1up each codex they post.


A bit, yeah. The WD Codex didn't look all that great, and you basically only had an option between wanting Retributors or Exorcists but if you knew how to play it the army could do quite well. 

Then again it might be a fluke that I've tabled Blood Angels about four times in 5th Edition with it, so don't take my word for it.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Actually the WD codex was extremely limiting but very good. I did very well against Marines and managed to place in the middle for Tourney. However, 6th edition took what chance they had by adding hull points, making our Rhino's like paper bags and adding flyers. So now SoB are still decent against SM, but Xenos/IG just wreck them with all their Rending, Gauss, and flyers.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm using my Night Scythes as I did last edition: Transport troops to a desirable location. What they do after that doesn't matter too much to me. 
Yes it is great if they do something, but it won't be the end of the world if they get shot down.

Doomscythes I might care a bit more since they are there solely to destroy stuff.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I wanted a scythe before. Now I literally have _no choice_ because of how good they are.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> I wanted a scythe before. Now I literally have _no choice_ because of how good they are.


Yeah, I picked up a couple ghost arcs for transports cause the scythes weren't out yet. With the rules out for for flyers I've already picked up a couple scythes for transports and shelving the ghost arcs (which is good cause they weren't painted anyways).


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

WOW there's a lot of hostility on this thread. Personally, having played with my shiny new vendetta, i found that hover-flyers are perhaps the worst type of flyers around, because mine outflanked into the rear quarter of my opponent's DZ (he was playing a dreadknight shunt/Paladin list), and managed to win simply because the vendetta dropped an infantry squad on the objective last turn. I think it makes original "high priority" (ie T1 kill targets) targets more durable, and actually allows them to function on the battlefield instead of dying T1. 

That said, i don't want to play against one of my local gamers who has dual stormraven GK (ill have to wipe his ground pounders and then deal with the aircraft). However, most of the armies in my area are not airmobile, with most players having at most 1 flyer (perhaps on the basis of they look cool).

If you can't get easy AA access (or don't want to by the name of fluff or other reasons), then high (reliable) rate of fire is best, running at ~36" range with S5-7 to deal with flyers, but not wasting the really good weapons to hit a speeding target, when more deadly ground based targets present themselves.

With SoB (for a purist), i would go for HBs as the weapon of choice for light AA work - yes its not great against all the AV11+ flyers, but it can put out lots of dakka at decent range, and if you can separate them from the boltguns, then its not always gimping your anti-personnel (and the HBs can find great use against infantry too) - MMs should go to tanks/MCs, as with the Exorcist (although that could go for termies). Plus, as you're snap shooting anyway, feel free to move closer to the target (or into its rear arc if possible) to get those shots off.


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## AresXero (Dec 6, 2008)

so with these all flyer lists people are on about arnt gonna have many other vehicles, now they have to put 1/2 their army on the table during deployment which they cannot do, so let them go 1st, you should be able to kill the few units they have and at the end of your turn, they have nothing on the table and you win since that is also the end of the game turn.:victory:


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Well, as mentioned before by somebody, if you take most your stuff in a flyer, you run the risk of losing cause you have nothing on the board. More so, you have no idea when which units will come into play and that makes it a bit harder to plan some sort of strategy. Adding one or two flyers is great and gives that extra punch but I don't think spamming them will work out all that well.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Antonius said:


> With SoB (for a purist), i would go for HBs as the weapon of choice for light AA work - yes its not great against all the AV11+ flyers, but it can put out lots of dakka at decent range, and if you can separate them from the boltguns, then its not always gimping your anti-personnel (and the HBs can find great use against infantry too) - MMs should go to tanks/MCs, as with the Exorcist (although that could go for termies). Plus, as you're snap shooting anyway, feel free to move closer to the target (or into its rear arc if possible) to get those shots off.


While I appreciate your attempt to be constructive it's clear you don't really understand how a SoB list works. There really isn't much room for change in the WD codex, if you take something from one slot, you have to fill it from another and suddenly something else isn't covered. I'm not sure what you mean by "separate them from the boltguns" because to get Heavy bolters you need to take up a heavy weapons slot, otherwise you can take a single, ineffectual HB on a troops choice. If you are firing HB in the air you ARE gimping your best reliable anti-infantry. AND as I said before, HB firing at flyers is a complete waste of points; You need a 6 to hit, and a 6 to damage, with no bonus on the damage table. So for about the same cost of the flyer you are shooting at, on average you will do close to nothing each turn. It's like saying "Take Heavy Bolters to handle Land Raiders". Will it work? Yes. Will it work reliably enough to be a smart, effective tactic? No. Also you need to take into account that most Flyers will be able to easily stay out of range of those Heavy Bolters, and if your sisters are walking across the board, their T3 models are going to be getting IDed by your opponents big guns on the board, or worse, drawn into close combat since they are walking closer to enemy lines rather than staying safe back in cover where they belong. 

The WD codex lacks redundancy. The way to win in 5th edition with SoB was targeted force application, having the ability to outshoot most opponents by being cheaper than space marines but with the same protection and less options. Meaning you could have more guns and more transports than Space Marines in the same point limit. However, 6th edition nullifies that by making those same transports easier to destroy, and adding units which the SoB cannot effective handle with those weapons.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> While I appreciate your attempt to be constructive it's clear you don't really understand how a SoB list works. There really isn't much room for change in the WD codex, if you take something from one slot, you have to fill it from another and suddenly something else isn't covered. I'm not sure what you mean by "separate them from the boltguns" because to get Heavy bolters you need to take up a heavy weapons slot, otherwise you can take a single, ineffectual HB on a troops choice. If you are firing HB in the air you ARE gimping your best reliable anti-infantry. AND as I said before, HB firing at flyers is a complete waste of points; You need a 6 to hit, and a 6 to damage, with no bonus on the damage table. So for about the same cost of the flyer you are shooting at, on average you will do close to nothing each turn. It's like saying "Take Heavy Bolters to handle Land Raiders". Will it work? Yes. Will it work reliably enough to be a smart, effective tactic? No. Also you need to take into account that most Flyers will be able to easily stay out of range of those Heavy Bolters, and if your sisters are walking across the board, their T3 models are going to be getting IDed by your opponents big guns on the board, or worse, drawn into close combat since they are walking closer to enemy lines rather than staying safe back in cover where they belong.
> 
> The WD codex lacks redundancy. The way to win in 5th edition with SoB was targeted force application, having the ability to outshoot most opponents by being cheaper than space marines but with the same protection and less options. Meaning you could have more guns and more transports than Space Marines in the same point limit. However, 6th edition nullifies that by making those same transports easier to destroy, and adding units which the SoB cannot effective handle with those weapons.


This. Very sadly this all day long.

And before anyone brings up completely wrecking your opponent in 1-2 turns. The Exocist is the only thing with enough range to do it. At BEST it kills 6 models in a squad in a turn, or a tank. The Sisters usually aren't in effective rapid fire range until about turn 3. 

Basically to do it, your opponent has to play to your strengths or set up the table in such a way you can't fail.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Note on my comment about scythes, it will be a doom scythe, not a night scythe. I still don't trust an AV11 vehicle you cannot embark to protect a vulnerable and expensive unit. I'd rather get a monolith that can do the exact same thing and be way killier at the same time.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think a pure Sisters force has issues. I do. But being able to Battle Brother with IG can help a lot of those issues, and I think that's what GW expects most Sister players to do, until the 6th codex is printed. 

Do I think my Sisters army has problems in 6th? Yeah. Do I think Allies can help? Yes. Will it help enough. Who can tell, I've only played one 6th edition game.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Creon said:


> I think a pure Sisters force has issues. I do. But being able to Battle Brother with IG can help a lot of those issues, and I think that's what GW expects most Sister players to do, until the 6th codex is printed.
> 
> Do I think my Sisters army has problems in 6th? Yeah. Do I think Allies can help? Yes. Will it help enough. Who can tell, I've only played one 6th edition game.


The problem is that even with allies the Sisters are looking pretty weak due to needing to put more powered armored bodies on the table than the Marines.

The sadly better looking option right now is taking IG and allying Sisters in. You get the strength of the IG, Faith Points and the bonuses of Sisters without nearly as many issues.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Note on my comment about scythes, it will be a doom scythe, not a night scythe. I still don't trust an AV11 vehicle you cannot embark to protect a vulnerable and expensive unit. I'd rather get a monolith that can do the exact same thing and be way killier at the same time.


Oh I've got one of those in there as well.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

The Aegis Defence Line Fortification with Quad Gun is quite effective at putting down fliers, considering how they're mostly armour 11/12.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Yeah but gun turrets are just 2 wound models. Not hard to take out before the flyer appears.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Creon said:


> Yeah but gun turrets are just 2 wound models. Not hard to take out before the flyer appears.



For some armies at least. Strangely some of the armies without flyers have issues getting close enough to ensure such things.


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## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

This kinda makes me want to dig out that old aeroplane out of my attic and convert it for my orks it gives me more to think about for making my army I may put one or two in and see how it goes but depending on my fluff selection and backlog they may get booted.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> The problem is that even with allies the Sisters are looking pretty weak due to needing to put more powered armored bodies on the table than the Marines.
> 
> The sadly better looking option right now is taking IG and allying Sisters in. You get the strength of the IG, Faith Points and the bonuses of Sisters without nearly as many issues.


I tried running tourneys like this in 5th with the old WH codex. It worked ok but there is a huge weakness. Consider, that if your Guardsmen are kept in adequate cover/armor, their protection and quantity make them about as safe as sisters would be. Since Vets are on par with Sisters but have more weapon options and Battle Orders, they are as good as most Sisters for shooting situations. 

So, I'm trying to say, that a allied detachment of Sisters doesn't really bring to Guard anything that a good strategist couldn't already give them (Well protected, good infantry units in mass quantities). What good things SoB do have, are usually best taken in quantities of 2 or more, since SoB require large numbers to accomplish tasks (much like guard). 

Unfortunately I feel that taking an allied detachment of either army only weakens both the detachment and primary force by spreading out the focus of power. :/


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> I tried running tourneys like this in 5th with the old WH codex. It worked ok but there is a huge weakness. Consider, that if your Guardsmen are kept in adequate cover/armor, their protection and quantity make them about as safe as sisters would be. Since Vets are on par with Sisters but have more weapon options and Battle Orders, they are as good as most Sisters for shooting situations.
> 
> So, I'm trying to say, that a allied detachment of Sisters doesn't really bring to Guard anything that a good strategist couldn't already give them (Well protected, good infantry units in mass quantities). What good things SoB do have, are usually best taken in quantities of 2 or more, since SoB require large numbers to accomplish tasks (much like guard).
> 
> Unfortunately I feel that taking an allied detachment of either army only weakens both the detachment and primary force by spreading out the focus of power. :/


You're probably right, but you have to admit that the IG + Sisters allies is the better build than the Sisters + IG Allies.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Iron Angel said:


> Note on my comment about scythes, it will be a doom scythe, not a night scythe. I still don't trust an AV11 vehicle you cannot embark to protect a vulnerable and expensive unit. I'd rather get a monolith that can do the exact same thing and be way killier at the same time.


The monolith is barely if at all killier than the nightscythe. Monolyth is a monolithic piece of shit.

Also, a monolith was way easier to destroy than a nightscythe (at least for now)


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

WEAPONS
Monolith:
4x GFA (S4 AP5 Rapid Fire)
Particle Whip (S8 AP2 Large Blast)
Roomba Power (Strength test or die, per model)

Night Scythe:
Tesla Destructor (S7 AP-)

ARMOR
Monolith: AV14 all over
Night Scythe: AV11 all over

TRANSPORT
Monolith: Anywhere on the board to its location, once a turn, can deep strike without mishaps onto enemy units

Night Scythe: Must arrive by reserves, cannot embark, if it dies your unit walks on from table edge

SURVIVABILITY
Monolith: Immune to everything barring the biggest anti-tank guns
Night Scythe: Can be shot down by anything dedicated enough. Actual AA guns will kill them near-instantly


The Monolith is supposed to be a floating fortress, as long as you don't let meltacide units get too close it will be fine. The Night Scythe is a paper airplane which will crash and burn shortly after unloading its cargo. Its hard to compare them because their functions are different but in terms of being a transport a Monolith is more reliable, more durable, and more threatening, and you won't lose it the moment it appears on the board.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

If a monolith deepstirke onto enemy unit's it mishaps. Yes I know the rule that if it is force to land on top of models it is moved the minimum distance so that no models are under it but guess what. Your still within 1 of an enemy and thus you still mishap.

Also the Night Scythe is far harder to kill then a monolith if you don't have skyfire. Their are some many ways to reliable kill a monolith (meltaguns, lances, haywire... just to name a few).


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> If a monolith deepstirke onto enemy unit's it mishaps. Yes I know the rule that if it is force to land on top of models it is moved the minimum distance so that no models are under it but guess what. Your still within 1 of an enemy and thus you still mishap.
> 
> Also the Night Scythe is far harder to kill then a monolith if you don't have skyfire. Their are some many ways to reliable kill a monolith (meltaguns, lances, haywire... just to name a few).


So in a couple codexes the Night Scythe will become less good when we start seeing more Skyfire options and the will about even with the Monolith by even those standards.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think this is the reason why GW are including forgeworld more, they already have a vast amount of AA for races, and it will not only fix the gap the game currently has, it will also make them more money.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

In the end the issue with dealing with flyers and an overall feeling of discomfort with Flyers has lead me to start Imperial Guard. They're Vostroyans, so even though they'll die faster I'll be looking at an army of all metal models with plastic vehicles that is just as ostentatious as the Sisters where.

Considering that the standard Vostroyan tank is a boring flat color I of course will be going with a more army appropriate color scheme (using the reds and golds) add adding wood paneling to the track guards (as in a hand painted wood grain) to match the lasguns. I think it'll be good practice for my freehand work and tie the army together better.

And Forgeworld overall isn't that much better than GW when it comes to supporting the Sisters. Their line for them has been around for what, going for more than half a decade without any expansions?


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

What flyers mean to my army build, is much mumbling and grumbling whilst I wait for GW to release a Tyranid Harpy!...


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

I need to see them in action, but I am getting the feeling that flyers are being over thought. I have been reading and rereading their sections and I am not sure they are game breaking.

The question, given what I know of Nids and Necron flyers is, are they more than a nuisance? Is the psych value of more use than the actual value in a competitive environment. 

I have not read all of this thread, but I am done the rules... finally and it seems that people, in my perhaps wrong opinion, are taking them too seriously.

You hit on 6s.... that sucks. However, they are fragile. 

They can't turn worth a shit. If they can turn worth a shit, they are fast skimmers/ (jump MC in the case of MC flyers) and can be shot at normally and charged.

They get all their shots, but then it becomes an issue of target priority.

Dark eldar has a nasty one shot payload and can then almost be ignore in favor of mission objectives.

Nids is harpy and tyrant.... tyrant is bad... harpy has access to shit weapons and if goes CC, can be wreaked.

Necrons have arguably great flyers at AV 11. The transport can disembark but cant pick up and has a great gun. The doom scythe's gun is probably still great on paper but I have never thought it worth its points or slot.

Sorry if this is tangential to the evolving thread, but it has been bugging me for a few days in relation to other threads.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

I haven't faced any flyers at all so far, so I will have to see how they do. So far from other games I have seen, they aren't a complete game breaker. Most times they seem to get immobilised and spend the rest of the game zooming in a straight line. If I do get any anti air it will be an Aegis defense line with a gun emplacement. Although not sure if I like the quad gun or the lascannon better.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Scratch the Vostroyans (sorry guys, maybe some other year), I'm getting two of these instead! 










Forgeworld, you just gave me Christmas in July. THANK YOU! :biggrin:


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Where in the world do you get the money to buy two of those?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> Where in the world do you get the money to buy two of those?


I'm single, live in the Barracks (bonus for being military!), just got paid and already paid my bills for the month! :biggrin:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks to the FW update my primary anti air comes from 2 mortis contemptors with assault cannons. Short range don't really matter when they are flying toward you.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

My standard anti-armour in my most used lists just won't work against flyers (haywire grenades/witchblades/fire prisms), however with a few tweaks I can include a lot more S6 firepower. I could also squeeze in a Firestorm (60" S6 AP6 Heavy 6 TW Skyfire Intercepter) for some fun.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Yes, if Forge World is allowed, I guess. I don't recognize the Firestorm.

An Aegis line is a good plan for everyone if they need some inexpensive Skyfire.


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

I figure flyers are the new arms race. You either have them, have units to take them out, or get pasted by a single model you can't handle. It's like in 5th edition where your opponent brings a few land raiders and your biggest gun is st7!

I've already teamed my blood angels with guardsmen to have some cheap units to deploy. With the new reserve restrictions, I have to have an equal number of units on the board to use deep strike. I also gave them a bastion with a las cannon so I have a super long range sky fire unit. Then I added a second blood raven because they have the same guns as a crusader and can only be hit on 6's. Sometimes I even throw in a Valkyrie just to be annoying. It works reasonably well but it needs tweaking to be competitive. Besides, I like the narrative of the guard getting hammered for a turn before the marines drop in and save the day


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

One thing I've noticed in using flyers for a few games now, to force the 6 to hit you need to be moving at least 18" and most guns point straight ahead. This means you get one turn of shooting at the lines, turn 90 degrees and shoot along the lines, and be forced to turn your tail to the enemy (probably denying you a shot at all). Best case you start on the far side of the board and strafe from one side to another. This means, while you probably will do some good damage, you won't kill off many units if at all. Also remember you MUST come in from reserve. Because of this, flyers are a nice tool but I don't think they're game breakers.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Hover flyers are the ones to watch - they can choose to slow down to set up better strafing runs, rather than simply shunt 18" around the board each turn. Best way to keep strafing is actually to evade firepower and simply jump off the board after each run to protect the flyer from enemy AA cover. I found that VERY useful against a GK army, allowing me to drop troops turn 5 with impunity.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Except for the part where as soon as you hover your flyer is dead. Also when it hovers it cant fire all the guns. It only can fire all the guns full BS if it zoomed, if it hovers it can only fire 2 full BS and snap the rest. So i just zoom my vendettas all over using all 3 las cannons and if i choose a HB, all at full BS. For some reason if the plane stands still the gunners fall asleep and cant fire their guns.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> Now I'm confused. Do SoB have some sort of missile launcher or don't they? If they do, you don't need separate rules to take flakk missiles. You declare you're taking them just like you decide whether you're shooting a frag or krak missile. The points come from taking the missile launcher itself and the specs for the flakk missile are in the back of the BRB.


The BRB also says *some* missile launchers can take them, not all. Don't assume you can unless it specifically says so.



ARMYguy said:


> Except for the part where as soon as you hover your flyer is dead. Also when it hovers it cant fire all the guns. It only can fire all the guns full BS if it zoomed, if it hovers it can only fire 2 full BS and snap the rest. So i just zoom my vendettas all over using all 3 las cannons and if i choose a HB, all at full BS. For some reason if the plane stands still the gunners fall asleep and cant fire their guns.


Actually, a hovering flyer is treated as a fast skimmer. So not only can it still fire all it's weapons, it can move 6" and do so. It's only if it moves 7-12" that it fires as you've described. And it's only as dead as any other Fast Skimmer in the game would be. Yes, most people would instantly target it whilst they can, but that's up to you to make sure you only hover when / where it is to your advantage.


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

i run a 2000pts blood angel are with 2 ravens which worked well in the 5th ed rules , not tryed it with 6th yet but i expect them to be more potent now


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

I will have to re read my fast skimmer rules, i must have ignored them on the first read through. I guess that makes them less useless but i would still be scared of doing it, so i would rather zoom everywhere. If you are smart about where you come on and how you angle it, you can basically always shoot something nice with your 90 degree turn.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

The biggest impediment to flyers I think will be there ability to only turn 90 degrees. I think that'll be the case with my night scythes at least.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Not as severe as you might think, from several 6th Edition. Not in position? Fly off the board and come back next turn via Ongoing reserves.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> The biggest impediment to flyers I think will be there ability to only turn 90 degrees. I think that'll be the case with my night scythes at least.


It's not just 90 degrees, but UP TO 90 degrees.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

I am tempted to take an aegis defense line with a quad gun. That is about all I will do when it comes to flyers. Plus from what I can see using a gun emplacement means you shoot at your BS along with any other special rules the guy shooting has. So retributor squad can get psycannons which is like awesome.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Zion said:


> It's not just 90 degrees, but UP TO 90 degrees.


Yes, i'm aware. Regardless, if you want to turn around it's going to take two turns.


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

Creon said:


> Not as severe as you might think, from several 6th Edition. Not in position? Fly off the board and come back next turn via Ongoing reserves.


Trouble is it can be a 5 turn game and they may not come in on turn two. I'd hate wasting a turn flying off the board too. That's not to say I haven't done it, in fact it won the game for me once. I'm just saying you have to sacrifice to get that gain. IMHO peoples decisions on weather or not to take flyers depends on how well they can make those choices. When to sacrifice and when to not is already the hallmark of a top player. Flyers are just another tool in your bag.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

asianavatar said:


> I am tempted to take an aegis defense line with a quad gun. That is about all I will do when it comes to flyers. Plus from what I can see using a gun emplacement means you shoot at your BS along with any other special rules the guy shooting has. So retributor squad can get psycannons which is like awesome.


how do you give them psycannons?


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> how do you give them psycannons?


Quad guns pretty much have the same S and AP as a psycannon except better range and no rending. Firing an emplaced weapon means you fire the weapon at the shooters BS along with any special rules from the firing model. So if you had a Sister in a Retributor squad fire it and they had gotten their faith power off than you pretty much have those shots rending, which is like having a psycannon.

Kind of cool, although since you have to shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad, its not exactly a perfect scenario, but there are times when both the quad gun and heavy bolters would have the same valid target. Against infantry where most of your heavy bolter shots will go, I will happily give up one Sister firing a bolter for 4 more shoots with higher strength, AP and twin linked.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

So if I get a vindicare assassin to man my quadgun, it's going to shoot with pinpoint accuracy AND I get to assign the wounds I do with the quadgun? 

This means you can succesfully remove all special weapons from most squads that come at a 4+ save or worse in a single turn? 

Excuse me while I pre-order a finecast vindicare then...


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> So if I get a vindicare assassin to man my quadgun, it's going to shoot with pinpoint accuracy AND I get to assign the wounds I do with the quadgun?
> 
> This means you can succesfully remove all special weapons from most squads that come at a 4+ save or worse in a single turn?
> 
> Excuse me while I pre-order a finecast vindicare then...


That is how I read the rules and yes I did think of that too. Bye bye IG heavy weapon teams.


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

Bastion with an Icarus las cannon. 110 points that drops even stormravens as they come in. Best bang for the buck in my army when it comes to aa fire. No flyers? Aim it at the ground and hit any vehicle like a normal las cannon.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Only caveat for that, I think the Lascannon has to be manned. So someone is standing on top of the building firing it.


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