# Deamon Princes, CSM Lord, or Sorcerors....



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I been scanning a few threads of tatics with CSM. And most people seem to always add DP's as the only logical HQ choice for competitive Game Play. I for one disagree. I belive DP are awsome Monsters to crush IC and Dreadnaught Equivalant walkers. But other areas HQ choices like the Lord or Sorceror can be even more useful or pratical for competitive play. I like the Lord for his awsome CC power and the Daemon Weapons for some are very nasty. Sorcerors are Awsome for mutiple attacks with their Psychic Abilities, and Force Waepons can be very handy against other said MCs. Both these choices can be put into transport and joined units for higher survival. They can even get simple cover saves where a DP needs to be 50% covered. Not bashing DP but I dont see why there in 9 out 10 Competitive list.

So heres my thoughts, Deamon Princes, CSM Lord, or Sorcerors? What do you all use out there?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm pretty much in the DP camp I'm afraid. With the exception of Kharn, and possibly Lucius the Eternal, who I've never seen used in a game, and am reluctant to judge. It's not that others can't do the job, just that they can't do it as well, for their points. They're also pretty vulnerable to the odd Krak missile...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If Chaos Lords had the options like a Space marine Master/Captain, then yes, Lords would be seen more.

Sorcerors appear often enough.

A lord will hover around 130 - 160 points...While a Daemon prince with wings and a chaos spell will hover around 150 - 160. With so little differene in points, why take a Lord, when you can select a Flying, eternal warrior MC?

Lords just dont hack it anymore.

Characters are different. 
Ahriman has lost his bite in my oppinion. He has never been the same since the 2nd edition codex. anyone else miss 'Flames of Tzeench'? was basically a lascannon that fired in the movement phase.
Lucius isnt anything brilliant.
Abaddon is mega expensive, and is in a different league to any other character
Kharn is pretty killy
The Red Corsair dude (cant remember his name) s just a lord with a heavy flamer and warptime.
fabius is pretty useless tbh
typhus is fluffy, like ahriman, so is only seen in fluffy armies.


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

I like demon princes and use them most of the time, due to the bang for your buck and versatility is equipped properly. If I am playing in a game without a Demon prince, I take Kharn for two reasons 1) I run a World Eaters amy, nuff said 2) for his sheer killing power. I know he can be a gamble if kept with his squad, but I'm a gambler and know how to play him. You don't keep him in the squad, you takke him away from the squad and send hime after a separate squad to slaughter or a walker (2 D6 pen). Other than him and lucius there are no real viable options for characters, untill you get in bigger games. Typus and Abadddon are complete beasts, but should only be used in 2000+ games. Lucius is a viable option in smaller games due to his armor and weapon skills. Fabius can useful, but does not usually make back his points. Huron is also viable option because of his gear for close combat. Arhiman is just an overpriced sorceror, flufffy though.

This is just my 3 cents


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

DP ftw. Their's been extensive arguments on either side but for me, the DP one always seems the most logical.

Kharn is a distant second however. But without eternal warrior nobody really cares.

And Lords are horrible. No EW means no sale.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

The only choices I see are either a DP or a Sorceror.

I would lean towards the DP for the following reasons:
-better toughness
-better in combat
-immune to instant death
-MC for both CC and attacking vehicles

If I had to choose a second, it would be the sorc
-Can still take spells
-Cheaper
-Can ride protected in a rhino
-Comes with a force weapon


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Personally it amuses me as I can base my army around taking out the CSM army easy as I know what will be in it as all CSM players pretty much play the same, be my guest please continue to do this as I love wiping chaos off the board. DP's are just like a vanilla marine to me oh look DP...hmmm - wings- check - lash - check. Me - Ravager - Check - DP -gone.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think sorcerors can be good and I've used them fairly successfully. I tend to field one DP and one sorc.

The really key advantage a sorceror has is protection from shooting by hiding in a unit. I find this pretty handy when casting ranged powers like lash, where you may not end up in cc the followin turn. However, the DP is miles better once it actually gets into cc, which obviously can't be ignored.


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm in DP camp myself (winged DP ftw). Its fast, its tough and when it hits, it really does hurt.. Plus with the ability of casting spells it becomes complete unit. 
The only advantage a sorceror has over a DP is his ability to hide in units or vehicles


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

My view is that comparing the three Hq options is like comparing apples bannannas and oranges. All three have their uses, with the lord being the inexpensive option, with more flexibility, the sorc being a more dedicated support role and the DP as close combat heavy hitter.

I rarely take Daemon princes because I want he points for other things I will make better use of. 

I have been experimenting with sorcerors with mixed results, and I am coming to think that there are really no good options that won't end up taking more than ten percent of your overall force.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I have been playing with one DP and Kharn recently and I have found Kharn most excellent. Against infantry he is far better than a DP. He gets one shot with his plasma pistol followed by 7 strenght 6 power weapon attacks hitting on 2. He is odds on to waste 5 to 6 enemy models, plus one of your own. You have to stick a unit of bezerkers with him to mop up the rest of the unit and to give him something to hide in. He is vulnerable to the hidden power fist or monstorus creatures but they should be left to the DP or something they do together.


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## Crane948 (Dec 8, 2008)

I normally take DP's they can be very flexible in roles and are very tough to kill Especially with EW they can march down the field and shrug off lascannon fire easy.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

In my point of vew, deamon princes are good, sorcerors are good and Lords are good too.
DP are awsome to detroy MC or vehicules, sorcerors for MC and support, and Lords for infantry and elite squads without PF . The only problem with a lord is that he doesn't have EW , but if you hide him in an unit(mine is in a 4man terminator unit, inside a Land Raider) there is not problem. The lord is also the cheapest, even cheaper than a SM chaplain/librarian/MotF...


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I always field my lord with terminator armour mark of khorne and a daemon weapon. i then field him with a unit of 5 terminators and deep strike them. the ability to deal out about 10 PW wounds from the lord alone is pretty devastating, especially against CC specialists. lately i have been using kharn the betrayer in my army, simply for his killyness. i field him with 9 berzerkers and stick them in a rhino. they are my 2 preferences, although i do use a DP the odd time.
Now, apocalypse is a different story altogether. In apoc, i field a sorcerer in termi armour with MoT, familiar(for the extra power), bolt of change, warptime and gift of chaos,230 points. he leads a squad of 10 power armoured tzeentch marines with a lascannon and plasma gun. then comes a DP with wings, MoT, warptime and wind of chaos, who leads a squad of 20 tzeentch marines. then i have my normal choices as well. apoc is great!


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

The only problem with DPs is their toughness of 5. If I am playing against one I look to saturate them with heavy weapon fire as their invulnerable save does not cut it. The other problem I have encountered is that they are not good at receiving a counter charge with a hidden fist. If a ten man Tactical sqaud with a power fist was to charge the daemon prince, they could bring it down, lossing three marines in the process.

Mark of Nurgle and Tzeentch go some way to re address the surviivability of them, but the other marks can be dealt with relatively easily. They are big targets and any opponenet worth their salt knows that they must go early at almost all cost.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lash Machine said:


> The only problem with DPs is their toughness of 5. If I am playing against one I look to saturate them with heavy weapon fire as their invulnerable save does not cut it. The other problem I have encountered is that they are not good at receiving a counter charge with a hidden fist. If a ten man Tactical sqaud with a power fist was to charge the daemon prince, they could bring it down, lossing three marines in the process.
> 
> Mark of Nurgle and Tzeentch go some way to re address the surviivability of them, but the other marks can be dealt with relatively easily. They are big targets and any opponenet worth their salt knows that they must go early at almost all cost.




I 100% agree with you. They are useful but there not always the best choice. The fact is I perfer Sorcerors with Lash riding in Rhinos in a squad where there survivalbility is boosted by alot. First use must destroy the Rhino, second the Squad, and third the Sorceror. 4 wounds with Eternal warrior at Toughness 5 or 6 and 5+ Inv. does not CUT IT against Lascannons, Plasmas, Multi Metlas, and PF attacks. That DP ur trying to use to effect is gone in one turn against a well made Mech army. Heck a Wraith Lord Trumps the DP and he has a Bright Lance for 135 pts total. You can have 3 of them too. Only 2 Princes. Whatever, the Eternal Warrior is over rated by some, my Phoenix Lords for my Eldar have Eternal Warrior but theye can be brought down my multiple hits of Lascannons. 

Not to say DPs arnt good, everyone points out there advantages, but I dont think a Competitive army has to have nothing but DPs to win.

Oh and I had a Khorn Lord in Termie Armore with the Bloodfeeder take out a total 6 GKs ,and wiped out a squad of 3 GK Termies with Brother Captain in one combat phase, they didnt even have a chance to strike back. It was sick uke:.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess it really depends on which type of army you are playing. Take for example 1ksuns, Many people take a DP because he adds much needed CC ability with little drawback. 
To be honest, to this day I've only had my DP die once. You have other forces to engage that "well made mech force" A well made mech force can just as easily take out that squad sitting in a rhino. Every army can take out the leader if they pump enough hits into it.
I never charge a full unit, I generally do not allow my DP to be charged if I can help it. It is stupid to think that a DP can take out things by himself, at T5 and 4W, mass HtH can take him out in one turn of bad rolls.
There are ways around everything, Those same lascannons, plasma, multimelta and PF take down Wraithlords just as well.

For the point costs, it all depends on what role you need the 3 choices to play.
Personally I place DP at the top becuase of it's multi-use function and cheap point cost.
At a close second I would place the sorcerors, mostly because of it's multi-function and ability to hide in a unit. Last I'd place the lords, they are not anything special in the new codex. The Demon weapons are a joke for the most part when compared to earlier editions.

Then again a DS Sorc lord in Termi armor with a bodyguard can really put some hurts on that unit it lands next to with a WoC and a Hvy Flamer.


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> . 4 wounds with Eternal warrior at Toughness 5 or 6 and 5+ Inv. does not CUT IT against Lascannons, Plasmas, Multi Metlas, and PF attacks. :.


Does anything cut it against lascannons, plasma, metlas or power fists? These things can take down landraiders in one fell swoop


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The thing that cuts it against those weapons is somebody else to get in the way of the shot. That's the advantage sorcerors have over DPs.

On the other hand, DPs obviously have a bunch of their own advantages. I do tend to find lash sorcs about equal to DPs on the whole. It does really depend on what other stuff you have though.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

johnnymajic said:


> Does anything cut it against lascannons, plasma, metlas or power fists? These things can take down landraiders in one fell swoop


Eldrad!


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

What is Eldrads ability to stand to these weapons, supprisingly enough I have yet to play eldar


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

He, usually, has a 3+ re-rollable Invulnerable save. That's it, but, it's a very good save, and psychologically damaging to the opponent to see a pansy Eldar take a Demolisher shell unscathed.  Against Fists he has 2 WS5, always wounds on a 2+, Power Weapon attacks.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Im using DP's for meele power, get two of them winged in any spell/mark combo (except khorne) and you have a solid meele platform to fend off almost anything, sorcs and lords can be good, but not As good and lower S, lower movement distance etc, mobility is a great factor in avoiding deadly units and charging what you need to charge.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im glad to see other people agree that the DP is not the end all. Depending on your army make up the Sorceror can be as good. The only Terminator thats useful I found is a Termie Khorn Lord with the BloodFeeder, hell kill squads of troops on his own.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

i use a winged lord with a daemon weapon with my raptors, i find him alt more effective than the DP.

But to be fair, the DP does mince vehicles and characters!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

You're all retarded. Fabius bile and Huron blackheart easily wipe out a DP's versatility and power.

See Fabius bile, as some of you may not know, is a S5 powerhouse. He's no S4 lord or sorceror he's S5. His S5 is so good he doesn't even need the ability to ignore armor saves. He can glance almost any tank in the game with his astonishing no MC status.
Also he doesn't have lash, instead he has no invulnerable save. In my personal humble opinion it's well worth the tradeoff.
Our hqs don't have any time to be rolling against lascannons. We can't CC lascannons, just ignore that shit and fly forward. Smack the die out of your opponents hand for powerfists.

And huron blackheart is no slouch either. He has both a powerfist, and a power weapon, ensuring he'll never get the full use of either. He also has warptime at a very high premium. Did I mention he's a pirate? Because that's worth like thirty points. It's very important. Oh and he's got a heavy mother f-ing flamer. Let's see how smart those charging killkans are once you BABAM! FLAME ON.

lose the game and shout "YAR MATEY" and bam, you'll instantly be forgiven for your bad generalship.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> You're all retarded. Fabius bile and Huron blackheart easily wipe out a DP's versatility and power.
> 
> See Fabius bile, as some of you may not know, is a S5 powerhouse. He's no S4 lord or sorceror he's S5. His S5 is so good he doesn't even need the ability to ignore armor saves. He can glance almost any tank in the game with his astonishing no MC status.
> Also he doesn't have lash, instead he has no invulnerable save. In my personal humble opinion it's well worth the tradeoff.
> ...


I literally can't stop laughing at this...


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> You're all retarded. Fabius bile and Huron blackheart easily wipe out a DP's versatility and power.
> 
> See Fabius bile, as some of you may not know, is a S5 powerhouse. He's no S4 lord or sorceror he's S5. His S5 is so good he doesn't even need the ability to ignore armor saves. He can glance almost any tank in the game with his astonishing no MC status.
> Also he doesn't have lash, instead he has no invulnerable save. In my personal humble opinion it's well worth the tradeoff.
> ...


Its like you read my mind... In the Past... And have a time machine!

I was going to suggest the almighty Fabius myself... Though more fool me; of course somebody would already have highlighted his power!

Would Rep you if I could.

Personally, I'm in the Daemon Prince crowd.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well I broke down and got myself a Varghulf model and some Green Stuff. I had to cos I realised in this day and age many people like to play Mech Eldar / Gaurd / DH / SMs, ect. and Chaos only has Geared up Chosen, Oblits, Vindis, LRs, and of course DPs to deal with this threat. So I have to break down as the FOC means I can have only three Vindis, Oblits, or LRs. And Chosen with MGs in a Rhino can backfire depending on the Opponet. So Im making my Lash Prince for added punch. In a Previous Apocalyptic game against a Mech IG, the DP I borrowed was Decimated in Turn 1 by all the fire power gave me little hope. My Sorcceror with Lash did alot more and did not die (1 of 3 models left on the board from my team. We won too!) I wa behind cover but there was not any building there to completly hide my DP, and MCs dont benefit from cover saves from the smaller terrain. So I was not impress. But my Tag team Partner had used 2 Nurgle ones as well, and again one died in turn 2, but the second DP not only survived 8 turns of madness but wrecked a LR, Chimera, and withstood 2 turns of shooting from a Great Bane with these Super Heavy Bolter guns (cant remember what it is called) so if the Tanks can get pass 2 turns of blowing away the DPs then you should survive but those odds seem to suck. Once again they are not very useful with lack of Transport. Wings could help but your still going to be blasted away n turn 1 or 2. I dont know.....


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## 123birds (May 17, 2009)

A chaos lord does better if you footlog troops->Sorc does better if you have just rhinos->DP does better if you have something like a landraider (This is if he is a supporter or something you dont want to die) ->DP does best of all if he is going to just be a fire magnet. that is how i field HQs also kharn Vs. a non-marked DP with warptime tie in combat and die at the same time whenever i roll for it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Kharn is awesome. I heartily recommend Kharn, at any points level, for any list.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Whats better for ripping apart in cc Kharn or DP


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Kharn is better for killing things that won't get to strike before his I6. He can easily kill a whole squad. DP is better at reaching things, and surviving the enemy's next shooting phase.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Hmm, I appear to be in a unique camp, where I only like Lords and Princes. :shok:

Daemon Princes are no-brainer choices. They're superior stat-wise to the other HQs available, can take psychic powers and are quite difficult to kill because of their multiple Wounds and Invulnerable save. Daemon Princes sort of take the best of both Lords and Sorcerers and put them into one. Sure, the Prince can't take a Daemon Weapon, but he has more Attacks than the Lord does anyway and at a higher WS and S, plus ignores armor. Okay, so the Prince can't take a familiar - he doesn't really need one, he's a freaking Daemon Prince!

Lords are cool, though... Nurgle Lords and Tzeentchian Lords with wings leading units of Raptors are ace.

I know everyone hates Raptors, but I'm a Blood Angel player, so leave me alone!

Katie D


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I think you're jealous of Kharn's awesome CC ability...you wish Dante had some of that slaughtery goodness...


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm purely a Prince man myself. For all the reasons that have been listed here.

Eternal Warrior is a big deal for me, and I've seen too many lords cut their own hands off with those Daemon Weapons.

I'll admit, Kharn is a pretty cool guy and seems like a laugh to have around. But he's no awesome Daemon Monstrosity. He can't fly either... I like to Fly


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## Pinkmerauder (Feb 27, 2009)

I like to run an all khorne army with the HQ's being Kharn and a DP with mark of Khorne. I know that giving a DP the mark of Khorne is a bit of a waste but it is so much fun to just slaughter entire squads.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Just dp and kharn sound the best with a sorcerer sounding like ok and lord being terrible


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

That's just it, Lord's aren't terrible, but they're just not _quite_ as good as others.


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

So, say one was set on using a Lord, lets just say it's because that was the only model they owned, and for now they were a poor student (or maybe it fits with their fluff). What would be the best build for said Lord? A bunch of people have mentioned Lord in Termie armour + MoK + Bloodfeeder, is that the best build? Thanks.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

*Hunts for Codex* Assuming you can't 'counts as Kharn' my instinct is...Nurgle, Bike, Plaguebringer or Khorne 2 LCs Termie, or maybe a Tzeentch, Steed, Deathscreamer...any of those is fun. Of course, a 'Nilla Lord with PW skimps on points for more Zerks, Oblits, PMs and Rhinos...:biggrin:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

A lord with lighning claws will give you a mediocre HQ choice. For some reason, you can make a 300 yr old space marine captain better than a 10,000+ yr old chaos lord...

ah well, Im sure GWs favouritism has nothing to do with this and it was just a mistake? i mean, they didnt really mean to fuck up the entire chaos codex did they?

...surely not...


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

I usually do run PW + MoK and leave it at that. Nice and cheap, fits with a squad of zerks... But that bike idea is intriguing.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Orochi said:


> A lord with lighning claws will give you a mediocre HQ choice. For some reason, you can make a 300 yr old space marine captain better than a 10,000+ yr old chaos lord...
> 
> ah well, Im sure GWs favouritism has nothing to do with this and it was just a mistake? i mean, they didnt really mean to fuck up the entire chaos codex did they?
> 
> ...surely not...


Nah of cause not im sure all of the gw guys play csm lords all the time vs a sm captain and never lose by some miracle


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Orochi said:


> A lord with lighning claws will give you a mediocre HQ choice. For some reason, you can make a 300 yr old space marine captain better than a 10,000+ yr old chaos lord...
> 
> ah well, Im sure GWs favouritism has nothing to do with this and it was just a mistake? i mean, they didnt really mean to fuck up the entire chaos codex did they?
> 
> ...surely not...


Naw, I doubt GW purposely screwed the Chaos Marines. That's just bad business.

I do wonder if Gav Thorpe didn't hide a few "Easter Eggs" in the Codex in the form of no-brainer choices and the like out of spite since he was leaving the company shortly after the book's completion..


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Maybe. 

But you can't argue it screwed pretty much every traitor legion player over. Bar the 4 God related ones.

I can't say i've met anyone who is pleased with the codex.

For their points costs, Daemon Princes are a must have. Lash Princes even more so. Now bing able to fill 3 HS choices with 9 obliterators, combined with Lash princes...it makes you wonder why he bothered adding in anything else.

Ah well, I dont play Chaos so much now due to its bland flavour (My Night lords lost everything that gave them an advantage).

at 155 points, a Winged Lash prince is the only thing you ever need. Oh wait...you need more? Take 2 then. Problem solved.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I never said the LC Lord was cost-effective, just a better fit than Bloodfeeder...

He'd be characterful. Fun list, not competitive. 

Cleitus, if you try the Bike out, please let me know how it gets on, seriously considering that build...


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

dude i was wondering could you use a bloodthirster as a csm hq or would you have to call it a dp


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Orochi said:


> Maybe.
> 
> But you can't argue it screwed pretty much every traitor legion player over. Bar the 4 God related ones.


No, I'd say they got screwed too. The only Legion that's really still intact is the Black Legion. The rest suffered terribly.

The big Four are all stuck with only the basic Troops and a single Special Character to properly represent their Legions. I don't care what anybody says - a unit of Terminators with an Icon of Khorne is not a World Eaters Terminator Squad. This same logic applies to all of the big Four Legions and to lots of units. Possessed, Chosen, Bikers, Havocs, etc.

What they should have done if they insist on being lame asses and dumbing things down to a painful standard is something more akin to the new Marines or Guard - say, taking Kharn the Betrayer would give all models in the army the Mark of Khorne if they don't already have it. Ahriman could give units Slow and Purposeful & Inferno bolts etc. These are just very rough ideas, but would have gone a very long way toward helping represent some of the Legions. Similar things could be done with the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and so on. How simple would it be to introduce a character that grants all units _Stealth_ to represent a Night Lords army?



> dude i was wondering could you use a bloodthirster as a csm hq or would you have to call it a dp


You could take it either as a Summoned Greater Daemon or a Daemon Prince. There's no legal way to use it as an actual Bloodthirster from Codex: Chaos Daemons, though.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

hmm k cause i wanted to buy one cause it has wings lash a sword or an axe

*be great for a khrone army* and if want to go to chaos or fantasy it works out perfectly


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> What they should have done if they insist on being lame asses and dumbing things down to a painful standard is something more akin to the new Marines or Guard - say, taking Kharn the Betrayer would give all models in the army the Mark of Khorne if they don't already have it.


I agree entirely. However, AFAIK, the Chaos book was written 18 months before the SM book was even started...they literally hadn't thought of it. 

If they had, I think they actually would. One of the problems GW has had for a while is differentiating between CSM and SM, apart from putting on spikes...I mean, the last Codex had an item called "Spiky Bits" FFS. I know how egotistical it sounds, but if they employed me on the Design Team I'd make every codex worth buying, without being stupidly broken. Unlike Pete Haines, I would be able to keep my biases out of writing, too. Don't get me wrong - I liked the last Dex, it was well written and good all over, but you couldn't half tell it was written by an Iron Warriors player...:laugh:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Greater daemons are best left for bigger games.
To use one you have to sacrifice an Aspiring champion.

I agree with you Katie, introducing similar bonuses like the Space marine 'Combat tactics and variants' aka, Pedro and Vulkan, would make it easier and simple to make a traitor legion.

Part of me thinks that the CSM codex was rushed, same could be said for the SM codex to be fair.


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

I hadn't played for quite a while (since I was a young boy actually) but when I came back to Warhammer a few months ago, I went through the 3rd, then 4th, and now 5th edition (well, newest edition for the chaos codex). One of the main things that I noticed was that a lot of the chaos flavour disappeared. I mean, like has been said, you could run a list with everybody having MoT or something, but it's just not the same, no special rules etc. DA and BA both have their own codices, but there was no room for a couple extra rules for each legion in the chaos codex.

I don't know, maybe I look like a fool, you guys know what your talking about in a far more profound way than I do.

@ TKE if I use the bike I will definitely let you know. I actually have some bikers sitting around... Toughness 6 squad sounds enticing.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The last chaos codex had so much depth. You could make such diverse armies and each traitor chapter had a little bit of 'background' fluff rules. The Chaos gods had much larger input, as they came with their own armouries etc.

the entire armoury (inc vehicle upgrades) totalled about 60 - 70 items.

Then, out went that codex, and in came this simplyfied, somewhat bland Codex.

Legions lost all their bonuses and the general interest in seperate legions died, as everything was sucked into the 'mixed bag' style 'black legion' army.


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

Black legion was always my least favourite army. Sure they get to best of everything, but where is the fun in that? Hmm this thread is getting me riled up. I feel like chanting something... something about blood, or skulls.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

basically, there are 2 kinds of CSM army.

Fluff
or
Competitive

Fluff is fun, but has no chance against Competitive lists. So, at tournements, never expect to see Raptors, Possessed, Thousand sons or Chaos Lords.

Expect to see
Lash prince X2, 3X3obliterators and Khorne berzerkers/Plague marines in Rhinos.

Those 4 units (5 inc the Rhinos) amount to a ridiculously powerful Chaos army that uses the following manuver to beat everything. Lash princes pull units into the obliterators plasma cannon pieplates, Death guard sit on home objectives, Berzerkers zoom forward and attack everything the pieplates dont hit/dont kill. Daemonprinces join in.

There we have it.

The competitive chaos army tactica.


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

Let me write that down *scribble*

I just remember with the last codex fluffy stuff actually mattering. For instance, taking squads of the favoured number and getting free champs or +1 to summoning rolls. See, while it's fluffy, it has some tactical relevance. me likey. But I'm getting pretty emo here, more so I think I'm allowed. Maybe it's because I had that bowl of ice-cream, sugar makes me complain.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I have to say there are other Tatical Choices. Chosen + 5 Meltas = Tank Killers. 3 Vindis equal Instant Death to all in range of it. LRs still good. The Chaos Marines are awomly flexible at 15 points thanks to there Uber Grit (Bolters, Bolt Pistol, and CCW), the Sorceror is awsome still, and Termies are still a viable choice. So theres still more than Zerkers, PMs, Oblits, and DPs.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Not in a 'competitive' army.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I have been to numerous tourneys since the Chaos codex came out and I have yet to see the so called competitive list you just wrote down Orochi. Yes, that is a tough list but it is not the only competitive list available to chaos players. In fact, to put a counter to your assertion that you won't see Thousand Sons in a tournament, I myself brought them to the last one I went to (as did 3 others) and managed to get within the top 5 players in a 40 man tourney. Remarkably, my list didn't look anywhere near what you said will be the default tourney list.

Of my opponents to date while using my Thousand Sons, only Orks manage to give me a truly hard time. However they can be dealt with. All other armies are quite playable/beatable for me, despite using Thousand Sons which you claim aren't competitive.


As for the original topic, I am a Daemon Prince fan myself. Lords and Sorcs can be fun to use but to me, nothing beats a Tzeentch Prince with Wings, Warptime, and Wind.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> I have been to numerous tourneys since the Chaos codex came out and I have yet to see the so called competitive list you just wrote down Orochi. Yes, that is a tough list but it is not the only competitive list available to chaos players. In fact, to put a counter to your assertion that you won't see Thousand Sons in a tournament, I myself brought them to the last one I went to (as did 3 others) and managed to get within the top 5 players in a 40 man tourney. Remarkably, my list didn't look anywhere near what you said will be the default tourney list.
> 
> Of my opponents to date while using my Thousand Sons, only Orks manage to give me a truly hard time. However they can be dealt with. All other armies are quite playable/beatable for me, despite using Thousand Sons which you claim aren't competitive.


Not to rain on your parade Wraith, but since I don't know your usual gaming group, it could be a number of things.

1) The quality of players may not be that high when compared to the "average".
2) Lots of people steer clear of the more powerful armies and builds like Orks with Nob Bikers and such.
3) Most of the players in that tournament had geared their lists to deal with the usual lists seen on the internet. Since you and at least 3 other people took lists that don't fit into what most consider "competitive" lists, the top tier armies may have been at a disadvantage since they're written with a certain metagame in mind.

These are just possibilities, though. For all I know you guys could be some of the best or whatever. No offense is intended here.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

There's kind of a conflict here for me. On one hand, I think it's good for people to try out different stuff and make their own armies, rather than everyone using lash DPs, zerks, plague marines and obliterators. On the other hand, it would be no good to pretend that all choices were equal. That would simply be bad advice.

So, a good player can certainly make a good army based around thousand sons. You need to balance the army out to mitigate their problems while capitalising on what they do well, and hope you don't run into an opponent you can't deal with. Assuming you don't meet orks, there's really nothing stopping you doing well at a tournament. That said, the only time I actually saw Tsons at a GT over here, a friend of mine was using an army with 15 termies against them, and the result was painfully predictable.

Personally I don't like Tsons because I don't think it makes sense to take such a specialised troop unit. They are fairly good against MEQs, though nothing special if those marines are in cover, but fail badly against many other opponents and have nowhere close to the firepower required to stop orks. My preference is to go for units I can use against any opposition, where gameplay determines the result.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Most of the players around me used Mechanised enough lists that lash has gone out of vogue entirely - about time. It's not that devastating against armies with a half-decent Transport option...


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

I think warptime nurgle princes will be seen much more in the future due to their great effectiveness. Matched with a lash prince would equal some great fun


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## Thomas_Lund (Aug 7, 2008)

I've been pondering the same questions too for some time. I ended up with a termie sorcerer that sits in a group of termies and a land raider (for the larger games). Hasnt been super successful.

So now I've gone over to ordering (last night) a nurgle prince with zombie dragon wings. With warptime he will HURT someone, and the point costs will be SO much lower than the LR, sorcerer, termie combo.


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## harrytheschmuck (Nov 4, 2008)

now ive been thinking about this for sometime before bumping into this thread. now i play with chaos and agaist chaos loads and i always find killing the enemy daemon prince pritty easy or when using my chaos find my daemon prince dieing pritty easy.

i think on average a sorcerer in terminator armour to be harder to kill than a daemon prince. maybe it works better for me but i have i lash model and as its such a usefull spell i want that model to stay alive so to get more use out if it so i sometimes stick my terminator sorcerer in a unit of 3 oblitorators or terminators etc and he becomes very hard to kill. more so than a daemon prince


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

Only because sorcerors can hide in units and people forget about them. People are going to shoot at a monsterous creature leaping at them and moving their units around. So it only makes sence that a sorceror would last longer. Unfortunately a sorceror and lords are one dimensional. Demon princes are the swiss army knives of chaos hq, being able to destroy tanks, cast spells and killing all infantry. Also they can't be instant killed, which is god like


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Naw, I doubt GW purposely screwed the Chaos Marines. That's just bad business.
> 
> I do wonder if Gav Thorpe didn't hide a few "Easter Eggs" in the Codex in the form of no-brainer choices and the like out of spite since he was leaving the company shortly after the book's completion..


I don't think we could win without those easter eggs unless we played terrible people like anyone who's ever won with tsons plays.

And real fast, can someone mathhammer a lord with bloodfeeder against a TH/SS Captain?


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## bbatt (May 3, 2010)

lord for me i love equipin them with nurgle,wings,deamon wep then putting them in rhinos with plague marines


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

I like turtles.


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## Platton725 (Apr 19, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> I don't think we could win without those easter eggs unless we played terrible people like anyone who's ever won with tsons plays.
> 
> And real fast, can someone mathhammer a lord with bloodfeeder against a TH/SS Captain?


Sure.

The Chaos lord has the blessing of Khorne & Nuffle, resulting in him rolling '12' for the number of attacks. He also gets of the charge every time.

So that's 3+12+1 attacks = 16 attacks.

Hits half, 8 hits.

Wounds half, 4 wounds.

The space marine saves 2/3 wounds, 1/3 goes through = 1,333333333333... wounds. 

Space Marine hits back
3 attacks
1,5 hits
1,25 wounds
0,83333333333 gets through after saves.


So, a Khorne Bloodfeeder Lord will do on average 1 wound on a Space Marine Captain with a TH/SS and then die in the return attacks 83% of the time (basically, he dies on 2+). If he maxes out the number of attacks. Good lord, that. :victory: (should the captain actually be toting Digital weapons, he kills the CL back 97% of the time).


Considering an average roll, where he actually fails do do anything 30% of the time since he'll hit himself, well....


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Holy shit, this thread still lives. I played a winged WT Nurgle prince and Lash Sorceror. Usaully I chose the Lash prince, hey hes the ONLY competetive build right? Wrong! My Nurgle prince killed a DP in one round of combat in a local tourney. 

My Sorceror performed wonders aswell. He hid in the squad of Zerkers and Lashed evryone into Charge range. In my last tourney game I killed 5 Long Fangs, 2 termie WG, 2 Power Armore WG, and Grimnar whats it. My Sorceror and 9 man Zerker team Lash all the Lorgar Long Fang combi to me. The Sorceror was the one that killed Logar. 

So all in all the Sorceror is very suitable if with a sqaud or Rhino. My Nurgly DP may be used again for the devastation it can do.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

You want real devastation? Use a Tzeentchian Princes with wings, Warptime and Wind of Chaos. Expensive, but the amount of damage that guy can do in a single turn is unreal. He can wipe out entire units in one go.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

The Tzeentch DP is the one I use myself.
The better inv save has saved me dozens of times. There really is not that much of a difference in T when it comes down to a hidden PF (5 vs 8 is the same as 6 vs 8).
the only time I have to really worry is if the unit I WoC runs away hanging my DP in the breeze. It has only happened once, and the Tau player only had a stealth team in position to capitalize on that. Though I saved all the wounds anyway.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I havn't used a DP in quite a while, and I haven't regretted it. I'm a Sorcerer fan myself. I usually run 2 lash sorcerers, but I've been meaning to try out a Lord option for a few weeks

Chaos Lord
-MoK
-Lightning Claw(Pair)
-Jump Pack
-Plasma Pistol

hehe


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

DP groupie here also. At a good price and having Eternal Warrior, he is quite killy and will at the very least divert some heavy firepower from the enemy. If only he still had the Kai Gun upgrade....

The sorcerer is quite decent, especially if you are facing lots of monstrous creatures. But his main advantage is being able to huddle behind other bodies. Don't expect him to shine and murder everything for you.

The CSM Lord is quite boring. There's nothing he can do that Kharn will not do better, except pack a daemon weapon. And those are really too random to be trusted. He is not shooty enough to kill at a distance and T4 means he will eat a power fist in combat and squish.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Sephyr said:


> The CSM Lord is quite boring. There's nothing he can do that Kharn will not do better, except pack a daemon weapon.


Jump Pack, Wings, Combi-Weapon, Terminator Armour, not killing his own guys...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dawnstar said:


> Jump Pack, Wings, Combi-Weapon, Terminator Armour, not killing his own guys...


Jump packs/wings don't really matter much when nobody uses Raptors or Bikes, so unless he plans on flying around by himself it's sort of a moot point. Combi-weapons are fine but not strictly necessary, plus Kharn has a plasma pistol anyway. Terminator armor is crap because you can't perform a sweeping advance afterward so that is also moot. Kharn's tendency to get overexcited is annoying sometimes, but he should only be rolling a single 1 per assault phase. Losing a single model kinda sucks, but killing three or four enemy models in exchange is worth it.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Damn it I though this debate was long settled. Ok it goes like this DP>SORC>Chaos Lord. Now you can argue all day, but very few builds of these choices will disrupt this order. Still the closest a Chaos Lord will get to having the ability of either is to take a Juggernaut with mark of Khorn, and lightning claws.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

Princes are obviously powerful with their winged movement, MC status, EW, and ability to use psychic attacks. They are just all around deadly things for whatever comes your way.

If you want to switch your tactics up, Lords become great choices for your army. Lords with their appropriate Cult squads can really make them shine. This will cost you points, but it will help him absorb damage. I like the steed concept vs terminator armour because the armour will help against general/massed attacks, but against power weapons that will most likely be directed at the lord and kill him outright such as powerfists, the armour does nothing, and he has the 5+ Inv regardless.

Consider a Berzerker Squad and attached Lord with Daemon Weapon and steed (+1S, +1A). They can't ride transport. All they can really do is run forward towards enemy, hiding behind cover and attempt to assault. No inv saves or defense of any kind in true Khorne fashion. What you get out of the deal is 32 S5 attacks at initiative 5 from the Zerks (could add a champ w/fist), and a whopping 6-18 S5 PW attacks at initiative 5 from the lord, when charging. Consider buying a transport as a screen or if it survives to move away after IC dies.
_2nd HQ: Kharn could be used to create a death squad that can use a rhino, or DP to add to killing power_

Now a Noise marine squad with Sonic Blasters only. Attached to them is a Slaanesh lord with steed and Daemon Weapon. This squad may not ride transports due to the Cavalry status of the lord. Noise marines can fire their Blasters while moving up to 24" so they can still be effective. This unit moves within 24" of enemy unit and fires Assault 2 Blasters. During his turn, enemy will have to decide if he wants to stand and trade shots or advance. If he advances, non fleet probably won't reach you. If he stands and shoots, next turn you can switch to Heavy 3 Blaster and open fire. During Movement phase, have lord move out of coherency so unit can fire heavy weapons. Run in the shooting phase thanks to cavalry fleet rule. The lord may now assault that unit up to 12" causing 5-11 S4 PW attacks at I6 which also cause instant death. Another unit that benefits from having a rhino with them as a screen/ transport after IC does his job.
_2nd HQ: But what about lash? Slaanesh has a nice power so grab a DP or try a sorcerer on steed with another unit of Noise Marines. Blastmaster is pricey but will really help them out._

Had to edit Nurgle lol. Typhus has a Daemon Weapon, gets +1W and a 2+ armour save (whereas a steed gives +1W and +1A) and 2 powers, negating the need for a lord or sorcerer. This leads me to believe a Typhus + DP combo is best. Adding a steed to a lord will add points anyway due to needing a Landraider to ride in. Therefore at low points use Typhus teleporting in, a DP or a non steed lord with daemon weapon. At mid cost use Typhus + Landraider w/PM or 2 DP, and at high cost use The Herald in a Landraider w/ PM + DP. His Daemon Weapon gives +d6 PW attacks, that wound on 4+, failed wound rolls against T4 and below are rerolled, and can Instant kill one model he wounds. Combined with Wind of Chaos against infantry and a glancing hit, and Rot for hordes, I would recommend him.

Tzeentch? Hmmm this one is tough to justify. Lord with steed and DW will provide more assault and is much faster than the Sons. Joining a unit of Thousand sons will screw with his jump infantry move, but he can join a raptor unit with MoT for the assault power the 1ksons lack, or stay alone and hope the inv save works out. Moving 12" and firing 24" is nice. This one seems inferior to a Sorcerer on steed but it is Tzeentch we are talking about. Chalk it up to balancing what the Cult lacks.
_2nd HQ: Warptime+wind of chaos or bolt of change DP. You should have enough sorcerers with your troops. Ahriman can replace lord if you want to go in a rhino_

Of course, you could go to try all of this, and then roll a 1 and take a wound, and get no attacks. Tzeentch is slightly safer with 4+ inv but his weapon rolls for shooting and for assaulting. This is what being a traitor is all about. Risking it all for a chance at overwhelming power.

These Lords joining squads of possessed with icon of same god become a good wall of hard to kill, deadly cc guys. A tzeench lord will provide firepower and can break off before they charge with great inv sav. A Slaanesh lord gain S5 attacks with random special rule up to S6 for those models his S4 doesn't cut it. Ultra resilient T4(5) adds some heat in CC to whittle down opponents with Nurgle. Kharn might hit possessed but they still get inv, lord will have mass of bodies with possible special attacks to help annihilate. This makes sense as to why they could get scouts as special rule after deployment. With lord attached they lose scout so have 2 squads and attach him after you find out who has what. 

Hopefully this will give some people ideas for an army that isn't lash + obliterators, and is interested in making a unique chaos army that is played differently than people will expect (Khorne becomes anti-ork/assaulters, Slaneesh becomes anti-eldar/mobile, Tzeentch becomes anti-necron/ MEQ, Nurgle becomes anti-Tyrannid/ horde) You kind of have to play they way that the individual gods want you too, as opposed to assembling an army of the powerful units that plays the way you want to.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Malgron: That's all very well, but you provide no reason why people would take a 2nd HQ in any of those lists.

Examples:
An IG army can/will take 2x CCS, because they are awesome suicide units.
A SW army will often take a Lord for a beefstick, and a RP for psychic defence.

CSM get no variety in their HQ. Everything does the same role, just varies in quality.

Oh, and Platton725 - not to rain on your parade, but LordWaffles asked for that TEN MONTHS ago...:wink:


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

I guess what I am trying to say is that by themselves a lord or sorcerer is useless compared to a DP. The Daemon Weapon is what gives the Lord his variety.

The different weapons complement the corresponding cult unit.

Khorne Berzerkers have many nice attacks, but suffer against good saves and getting bogged into 1 assault. The bloodfeeder adds many PW attacks.

Noise Marines have high initiative attacks but suffer against multiwound models and enemies that had low initiative anyway like powerfists. Blissgiver will add needed powerweapon attacks and Instant Death.

Plague marines can handle a lot of things but Powerweapons and monstrous creatures still kill you. I3 doesn't help. Having a I5 powerweapon that can wound anything will makes this unit capable of killing pretty much everything.

Thousand sons aren't the greatest in assault. With a Deathscreamer and the sorcerer firing out of a rhino with Bolt of change, you can put the hurt on units 24" away after 6" movement while having a competent assaulter on board.

DPs will enhance your army in general, lords with daemon weapon will perfect your troops. Our HQs are a little bland but it's the troops that make the Chaos army.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Personally I don't buy it. Khorne Berserkers getting bogged down against units that have good armor saves? What kind of unit are we talking about here? Terminators will probably slaughter the Berserkers depending on equipment, whereas Tactical Squads are the opposite extreme - the 'Zerks will pull Tactical Marines apart in two rounds of combat, tops. I'm trying to think of a unit that a units of Berserkers would need a bloodfeeder Lord to overcome and it's not really coming to me. A unit of Hammernators will save the vast majority of any wounds caused by the Bloodfeeder and then squash him with a thunder hammer blow to the face.

Noise Marines struggle against multi-wound models just as much as Thousand Sons, Plague Marines or normal Chaos Marines - a Lord with a Blissgiver could help sure, but so would a simple power fist on the Noise Champion.

There aren't a ton of I4 units that wield a ton of power weapons - at least not units that Plague Marines could hope to beat anyway. I mean, let's be realistic. If a unit of Plague Marines gets charged by Terminators with lightning claws or a squad of Sanguine Guard (who all too often have _Furious Charge_) a model standing around with a Plaguebringer probably won't make much difference - the Plague Marines are still gonna get slaughtered.

The point about a Lord with a deathscreamer is a good one, however. Thousand Sons tend to have a hard time dealing with hordes of cheap, poorly armored enemies so having an extra D6 shots with a decent Strength and high Ballistic Skill helps them out a lot. Thousand Sons also lack a meaningful number of Attacks in close combat no matter what power you give their Aspiring Sorcerer, so a Lord hanging out to lend D6+3 power weapon Attacks is always welcome.

Still though, there's no good reason to not take a Daemon Prince in a competitive environment. The main justification for taking something other than a Daemon Prince is because people get bored taking nothing but Princes for their HQs.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

I concede. I guess I'm trying to rationalize why they put in some options. 

I am wondering if a Tzeentch Lord in with a unit of possessed in a rhino would be worth taking. He can fire when advancing from the vehicle and the unit should add a much greater assault punch.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Malgron said:


> I am wondering if a Tzeentch Lord in with a unit of possessed in a rhino would be worth taking. He can fire when advancing from the vehicle and the unit should add a much greater assault punch.


It really depends on the environment, I think. If you're playing in something like 'Ard Boyz or a GT, then no, I wouldn't think they'd be worth taking. A local tournament, though? Friendly games? Absolutely something worth considering. I just feel that it's important to make this distinction.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Still though, there's no good reason to not take a Daemon Prince in a competitive environment. The main justification for taking something other than a Daemon Prince is because people get bored taking nothing but Princes for their HQs.


I disagree. In my opinion, and indeed experience, taking Kharn over a Prince, and leaving out the second HQ, is perfectly grand. He hits harder than any Prince and, while he can be instakilled, and can't fly - he can hide in a Rhino, and is actually better against Walkers, vehicles moving Flat Out, hordes etc.



Malgron said:


> I concede. I guess I'm trying to rationalize why they put in some options.
> 
> I am wondering if a Tzeentch Lord in with a unit of possessed in a rhino would be worth taking. He can fire when advancing from the vehicle and the unit should add a much greater assault punch.


IIRC Bolt is Heavy, and so cannot be fired out the hatch if you move, and certainly cannot if the Rhino moves over 6"...it's not a bad idea, and for a themed army certainly one of the best options you'll find, but it's not as good as 



.

As regards the rationalizing options - please remember that the Chaos Codex was designed to compete with the Dark Angel, Daemon and Eldar ones, and, to a lesser extent Orks. The ones since have had a different philosophy behind them, and so the fact it can compete _at all_ is commendable.


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## Zzzyax (May 18, 2010)

I own all three, infact three sorcerers, but i always use the DP because he is the most beastly and fun to use!

Even though he may not be efficient in certain situations, he is most certainly the most fun of the three options.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

lately, when not running my SW list, i use a termie lord with Mok and a bloodfeeder and a jump pack lord with mok and a blood feeder. sure he chops some if his own limbs, but it is fun and is a lot of killy goodness when he is in a squad of raptors.


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## Anensenef (May 24, 2010)

hmmm... i like to use sorcs and lords. My sorc uses lash, and im trying a tzeetch lord w/ daemon weap, figure that added inv save will help if i roll a one. u just cant hide a prince unless u run him behind a rhino or somthin.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually a really good point has come up, and that is how absolutely none of the chaos HQ's with the exception of maybe Fabius bile, and a Lash Prince provide any support abilities beyond just killing enemies in CC. Hell we don't even have a apothecary equivalent. Hmm kinda makes all the CSM HQ's kinda boring.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LukeValantine said:


> Hmm kinda makes all the CSM HQ's kinda boring.


Astounding, especially when compared to the flexibility in all the other FOC sections. Oh wait...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Astounding, especially when compared to the flexibility in all the other FOC sections. Oh wait...


LMAO! This should go in that 'Heresy Quotes' thread...


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

I've taken to running a Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder plus wings, even in competative play. I go with wings so he may be transported, but when I'm nearing an opportunity to assault, I break him off the 'zerks in the movement phase, then he hits one squad, 'zerks hit another. So far, it's been working out quite well. A few, "oh shit I just cracked myself in the face with my own weapon," moments, but it works more often than not, and when it works... it's outstanding.

As mentioned... We lack variety. Just different ways of killing crap, and so many of our choices are sub-par to begin with, in a competative environment, our choices are extremely limited.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

Wraithian said:


> I've taken to running a Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder plus wings, even in competative play. I go with wings so he may be transported,


I had never considered this. I figured they left in wings on lords/sorcerers for modeling/fluff possibilities or for older models people made that had Daemonic Flight. 

Checked the codex and you are right. The old codex bundled Daemonic flight as wings/jumpack not being able to be transported, where this one just says they move like jump infantry.

He can hop from a busted rhino to some other units transport and carry on forward. Or play hide the deadly guy and hop out of his rhino unit to another when a bad assault is headed his way or add some power to a formerly harmless unit.

Edit: For example you have 2 Zerker squads in rhinos and a lord attached to 1. They are within 18" of each other and 1 is being overwhelmed on an objective. There is another objective you wish to contest/murder in the opposite direction that you are confident the Zerks can handle. have the lord go for glory and disembark/jump to help the overwhelmed squad, while the squad he was with heads elsewhere. 

Space marines = the commander supports his men, Chaos Space marines = units must conform to the will of the HQ.

Anyways thanks for the idea!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I can't believe this discussion is still going. 

Deamon prince. End game.


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