# Is it just me, or are the Eldar and DE starting to suck?



## aireoth (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh No, not another Eldar suck thread, but seriously I have just one question before I spend a retarded amount of money on models. Having played a few 'practice' battles, with cardboard and markers, I have tried several Eldar and DE lists out, and had very little success. The new space marines codex seems to own them, IG absolutely dominates me, not to mention the few battles I tried against Tau and Necrons. The amount the Autarch sucks is just amazing, and the shear number of weapons that turn my army into puddles of goo is kinda depressing. The only way I've been able to win is when I design a cheap list 100% tailored to killing a specific enemy, which I consider power gaming. All my generic, tournament lists, fail horribly. My friend has the same problem with DE. Is it just me, or has codex creep destroyed my army?


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

It may just be your lists, no offense intended, as I have a regular opponent who plays both Eldar and Dark Eldar and I have found him to be a challenging opponent with both armies. I am not an aficianado of either army so I can't really comment on the ends and outs, but I know that both armies can be very competitive and a hard match. Try putting up a list or two in the Eldar Army Lists Sub-forum and I amsure that the guys over there will give you some good advice.


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## Niffty (Aug 5, 2009)

I can't speak for DE, but I'm a long time ELdar player and a still find them to be a very competitive army. Maybe they're not as good before since their codex is lagging behind the newer ones but all Codexs will be outdated to some degree at some time. 

My suggestion is to look through the Eldar army lists here and build you lists based off your personal style. The common way to go with Eldar is mech these days, and that setup is very powerful. Even non mech lists, to my experience (I run mainly foot slogging eldar with some jetbikes and wraithlords) can still be powerful army setups, especially in friendly games. 

Eldar are a difficult army to get used to and take practice to get the full potential out of every unit. If you posted up your army list then maybe other here and I could help you tweek it to find some better results. Keep trying them out, but don't count them out as they're a really fun army to play and paint too. 

Hope this helped some.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

aireoth said:


> Oh No, not another Eldar suck thread, but seriously I have just one question before I spend a retarded amount of money on models. Having played a few 'practice' battles, with cardboard and markers, I have tried several Eldar and DE lists out, and had very little success. The new space marines codex seems to own them, IG absolutely dominates me, not to mention the few battles I tried against Tau and Necrons. The amount the Autarch sucks is just amazing, and the shear number of weapons that turn my army into puddles of goo is kinda depressing. The only way I've been able to win is when I design a cheap list 100% tailored to killing a specific enemy, which I consider power gaming. All my generic, tournament lists, fail horribly. My friend has the same problem with DE. Is it just me, or has codex creep destroyed my army?


i'm only gonna speak for eldar, since I don't play DE, but it is gonna be hard for you to argue for codex creep for a codex that isn't even a year old.

Now about eldar: Use a farseer. If you aren't using either a farseer or eldrad, then it's no wonder your army is terrible. You need to be making heavy use of eldar psychic powers. Second, if you are playing footdar, then that explains it. To be a descent list of eldar, you need to be jetbikes and waveserpents everywhere. 

So before we talk anymore, tell me what kind of lists you are even trying.


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## aireoth (Jan 24, 2011)

Ilyanden List:

HQ:

Uriel (I found Autarchs suck)

Farseer (powers depend on how I feel)

Usually Scorps or Warps, mounted when possible. Always one group of Wraithguard. Also always have a wraithlord, two prisms or falcon's, troops are usually DA with transports. Rush and kill. Sometimes a vyper or 3. 

I win about 20% of the time. Otherwise my vehicles are shot to shit in the first two turns. I've learned to fear the autocannon.

If I am fully fluffy, I drop the aspects and focus on DA and Guardian, put in an extra wraith guard and lord. 

​


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

aireoth said:


> Ilyanden List:
> 
> HQ:
> 
> ...


heh, if you want to be table top competitive, I would suggest a non-Ilyanden craftworld. I roll bieltan personally. Anything that has the word wraith in it is gonna be terrible on the tabletop. I don't like guardians. I generally use small units of DA (read 5) in serpents.

You can't really win with eldar without using some firedragons really. You re going to absolutely need them. As for the farseer, a good old doom fortune is my favorite. Oh...also, i'm presuming you are using fire prisms. if there are no fire prisms, then...well...(edit. yes you use prisms, how did I miss that?)

I like to use eldrad with my two prisms to keep them accurate for the first two turns before he rushes off with the rest of the wave serpents dropping double fortunes so that transports will get rerollable cover saves.


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## aireoth (Jan 24, 2011)

Two prisms, I liked the Ilyanden colors (though I upped the level of blue and downed the level of yellow) so I could be a generic craft world. 

What do you use the Firedragons for? I find two prisms, Wraitlord and vypers usually provide enough tank pop.


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## Zjoekov (Jan 11, 2011)

Eleven said:


> Now about eldar: Use a farseer. If you aren't using either a farseer or eldrad, then it's no wonder your army is terrible. You need to be making heavy use of eldar psychic powers.


You're wrong. You do not need a Farseer in order to play competatively. Example of good Eldar list setup without a Farseer? Simple; Mech Eldar with Autarchs.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Zjoekov said:


> You're wrong. You do not need a Farseer in order to play competatively. Example of good Eldar list setup without a Farseer? Simple; Mech Eldar with Autarchs.


So you think that an autarch grouping can be better than say, a farseer with locks? I'd have to disagree. The farseer is going to be massively more useful and not just in combat.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

aireoth said:


> Two prisms, I liked the Ilyanden colors (though I upped the level of blue and downed the level of yellow) so I could be a generic craft world.
> 
> What do you use the Firedragons for? I find two prisms, Wraitlord and vypers usually provide enough tank pop.


Well, firedragons absolutely will kill that landraider when they are in melta range. I don't like shooting my prisms at LRs unless I have to and I don't trust lance weapons enough.

Let's just say, if you drop the Dragons on the LR and shoot it, you would be very unlucky if it didn't explode.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Eldar are limited in their ability for competitive play, that is, we have very few varities in our list when it comes to competition.

Farseers are great, and Autarchs can be picky, you have to run them with the right unit with the setup or put them on jetbikes or they suck miserably.

Personally I run Eldrad as my first HQ and a Seer Council as my 2nd in my 2k Mech list.



> What do you use the Firedragons for? I find two prisms, Wraitlord and vypers usually provide enough tank pop.


Beucase Prisms are going to have a tough time with any AV 12+ vehicle, and if you contribute beams your using about 200 pts to kill an avg/55 pt vehicle, plus you might scatter and then it's utterly useless. I like to use Prisms for shredding infantry. 
Wraithlord are ok at range but Wraithsight combined with poisoned weapons makes them obsolete, plus much long range weaponry also has high strength which will negate the T8.
Vypers are good mobility, but AV10 usually wrecks them for me, so I avoid using them.


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## aireoth (Jan 24, 2011)

So you don't bother with Elites? Just DA and Fire Dragons, with mech support?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aireoth said:


> So you don't bother with Elites? Just DA and Fire Dragons, with mech support?


Eldar have basically one good Elite choice in the form of Fire Dragons. Other than that, they tend to be pretty sub-par, though some people will argue the case of Howling Banshees, Harlequins and so on.

The issue that's holding you back right now is that you've decided to go with a more fluffy army. While there's nothing wrong with this, it will make it more difficult for you to win games without some really impressive tactics or good luck. As others have said, getting rid of the Wraithguard and Faillord will go a long way toward helping you.


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## aireoth (Jan 24, 2011)

Sad, I am a painter/modeler first, and I love the Warp Spider and Scorpion models, but they do tend to fail on me, a lot:wink:.

I don't want my team to be op, I just want units to not be complete fail.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aireoth said:


> I don't want my team to be op, I just want units to not be complete fail.


Yeah, the Eldar Codex is sort of like this. It's full of units that are either quite good or quite bad. Very few that lie somewhere in between.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Eldar have basically one good Elite choice in the form of Fire Dragons. Other than that, they tend to be pretty sub-par, though some people will argue the case of Howling Banshees, Harlequins and so on.
> 
> The issue that's holding you back right now is that you've decided to go with a more fluffy army. While there's nothing wrong with this, it will make it more difficult for you to win games without some really impressive tactics or good luck. As others have said, getting rid of the Wraithguard and Faillord will go a long way toward helping you.


This is dead on.

About the banshee's, the only time i've ever felt they were strong was against foot dar (which shouldn't be hard to beat anyways) or non-mech IG.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you make an Eldar army that looks like this:

HQs
Eldrad/Farseer
Farseer/Seer Council on Jetbikes

Elites
Fire Dragons <--- In Wave Serpent/Falcon
Fire Dragons <--- In Wave Serpent/Falcon
Fire Dragons/Banshees/Scorpions (Banshees being better than Scorps, mathematically) <--- In Wave Serpent/Falcon

Troops
5 man Avenger squads <--- In Wave Serpent/Falcon
10 man Avenger Squads with Bladestorm <--- In Wave Serpent/Falcon

Fast Attack
N/A
(Vypers? maybe?)

Heavy Support
Falcon/Prism
Falcon/Prism
Falcon/War Walkers with 6x Scatters/Cannons

Then you will be able to beat or at least compete with almost any codex out there, barring Wolves and IG tournament builds (especially Guard in 2000pts or more), assuming that skill levels and luck are equal.

If you deviate substantially from the above unit selections, prepare to have your ass handed to you by more or less anything.

Dark Eldar still don't have any real confirmed archetypes apart from "Raider Spam" and "Venom Spam" but they also work perfectly well provided you have 2-3 Ravagers in every game over 1000pts, don't skimp on the troops choices (i.e. at least 4 in every game) and play sensibly.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I usually run my 2k pt lists like this:

HQ:
Eldrad
Seer Council

Elites
Fire Dragons/Serpent
Fire Dragons/Serpent

Troops:
10x DA/Serpent
10x DA/Serpent
10x DA/Serpent

Heavy Support
Prism
Prism
Prism


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

If running Iyanden, make sure that your Wraithguard are set up as Troops with the Conceal backing them up. Couple this with a FortuneSeer and you have a very durable Troop that can take a hit and keep on coming. A nice little trick is to use Harlequins to run in front of these advancing troops to provide mobile cover and to counter anything that might try to catch the 'Guard in melee.

Conceal and Fortune are just about the only way to effectively run an Iyanden list. Is that how you were set up?


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## Zjoekov (Jan 11, 2011)

Eleven said:


> So you think that an autarch grouping can be better than say, a farseer with locks? I'd have to disagree. The farseer is going to be massively more useful and not just in combat.


Nope I'm not saying that. I say that running autarchs in the right list is perfectly viable. But not in the way you seem to be hinting at.

I run 2 Autarchs; bot with the same setup: Just a Fusion Gun. What's their main purpose in my list? I reserve my list and come on the board in 2+. How the list looks like?

2x Autarch; fusion gun
2x DAVU Serpent with TL-brighlance
3x Fire Dragon Serpent with TL-Shuricannon
2x Prism tank
1x DAVU Falcon with EML

All tanks have Stones and underslung Cannon. It's a competative list and I prefer the Dual Autarch over a Farseer(/Autarch). It's fine with a Farseer too though; just drop 2x spirit stones and add a Doomseer with RoWa instead of an Autarch. But 2+ and 3+ for reserves is a huge difference. The BS6 Fusion gun is a bonus.

But yes this about the only kind of list which works with Autarchs too. But it's the only kind of list which is competative with Eldar anyway (all Mech that is) so that makes the Autarch a competative choice doesn't it?


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Zjoekov said:


> Nope I'm not saying that. I say that running autarchs in the right list is perfectly viable. But not in the way you seem to be hinting at.
> 
> I run 2 Autarchs; bot with the same setup: Just a Fusion Gun. What's their main purpose in my list? I reserve my list and come on the board in 2+. How the list looks like?
> 
> ...


Hey man, if that works for you then that's cool. I rely massively on fortune personally.

I might try it sometime.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Personally, I'd have to say the origional poster is a bad player.... Sorry, but if your not managing to win anything with Eldar or DE, either your lists suck, or your tactics suck.

Firedrake spam is not the answer for Eldar... its effective, but I've a friend who is an eldar player and doesn't use any firedrakes... he still wins 80% of his games.

And as for DE, they are litterally the only army I know where you could take the army list, throw darts at it, and use whatever random unit the dart hits and you WILL have an effective army if you know how to play them right. 

DE are a glass hammer. Nasty and hard striking, but if you use them wrong they will shatter.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

It all comes down to the players skill level.

Space Marines are a very forgiving army when it comes to tactics. You can afford to make mistakes without being hurt badly for it, but they are more of a jack-of-all-trades / masters-of-none.

Eldar and Dark Eldar on the other hand require a lot more skill, and really need good tactics to be effective.
When using them to their full potential and maximizing each units strengths while preventing the opponent from exploiting their weaknesses, they can be a VERY effective army.
However, one simple mistake can potentially cost you the game.

Both Eldar and Dark Eldar are far from _"starting to suck"_.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Yeah looks like eldar has been pretty well covered. I dont think it sfair to say DE suck I mean they JUST got re-released. People have barely begun to use them. There are so many damn options in that codex its crazy. No one can say that they are worthless at this point in time because I doubt anyone has tried every potential list in the book.

Both eldar armies are considered to be 'advanced' in that they are not as forgivable to their players mistakes like space marine armies. they are not durable but they have tons of war gear options, speed, and each unit tends to be unique in one area of combat where as space marines tend to be at least decent in most forms of combat. The general idea behind eldar is that if you have the right unit in the right place at the right time they will be unstoppable but otherwise will be wiped out. As for Dark eldar its similar but they focus heavily on speed, so you have to be able to come up with a strategy where you will be in a good lead by like turn 2 or 3, I think anyway. Havnt played with them really just going off the codex and research and having been involved in the hobby for a few years.

edit* looks like I pretty much repeated king of cheese haha.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

As the typical poster can see, there are a lot of different OPINIONS based on posters' play styles and experiences.
I've played Eldar since 3rd, have done very well with them, and only in the past couple of years have even bothered to occasionally take a Farseer.
They're not necessary.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> As the typical poster can see, there are a lot of different OPINIONS based on posters' play styles and experiences.
> I've played Eldar since 3rd, have done very well with them, and only in the past couple of years have even bothered to occasionally take a Farseer.
> They're not necessary.


In my opinion, when someone is starting a new army, it is a huge disservice to them to recommend anything other than the most powerful things they could choose. If the player constantly loses with his new army because it is subpar, he will likely lose interest in the army very quickly (which is exactly what is happening to the OP).

Just because you can play well with certain options as a long time eldar vet doesn't mean you should suggest them to a new eldar player. Just recommend to new players the strongest things they could be choosing and as they become veterans themselves, they will experiment with options that are not optimal.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Eleven said:


> i'm only gonna speak for eldar, since I don't play DE, but it is gonna be hard for you to argue for codex creep for a codex that isn't even a year old.
> 
> Now about eldar: Use a farseer. If you aren't using either a farseer or eldrad, then it's no wonder your army is terrible. You need to be making heavy use of eldar psychic powers. Second, if you are playing footdar, then that explains it. To be a descent list of eldar, you need to be jetbikes and waveserpents everywhere.
> 
> So before we talk anymore, tell me what kind of lists you are even trying.


I agree, the powers of a Farseer are overall better per point.



GrizBe said:


> Personally, I'd have to say the origional poster is a bad player.... Sorry, but if your not managing to win anything with Eldar or DE, either your lists suck, or your tactics suck.
> 
> Firedrake spam is not the answer for Eldar... its effective, but I've a friend who is an eldar player and doesn't use any firedrakes... he still wins 80% of his games.
> 
> ...


I use 30-40 Wraithguard, no fire dragons and some other minimal support and do quite well, the only issues I have is capturing objectives and that is partly my fault.



Before The Closure said:


> Both eldar and dark eldar are average to bottom tier, depending on the list ran.
> 
> Eldar Builds are
> 
> ...


You sir are an idiot. No other way to put it. Pretty easy to see as soon as I saw the fucking moronic term footdar and mechdar.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> You sir are an idiot. No other way to put it. Pretty easy to see as soon as I saw the fucking moronic term footdar and mechdar.


you mean the recognized terms for the two most common eldar builds?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> You sir are an idiot. No other way to put it. Pretty easy to see as soon as I saw the fucking moronic term footdar and mechdar.


Moronic? You mean the commonly used and recognized names of two of the most common Eldar lists?


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Since when? Leave the hobby for a year and come back to stupid 4chan like terminology because people are to lazy to type tank based or infantry based.

edit: Oh yeah edit button lower right hand corner of your post so you don't have to double post and pretty much say the same thing.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks for the tip. Good thing heresy has such wise people to point that out. (I already did it.)

And yes I suppose you do, heard of Loganwing? Blood Rodeo? Just because you dont like the terminology doesn't make it moronic.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Nope, never heard of either of those and yes I think cutesy little names for lists is what Yu-Gi-Oh styled gamers have brought to our hobby are moronic. In the 16 years I have been playing 40k until now have I ever seen a list referred to as something as stupid as Footdar, I thought that was reserved for CCG players.

And some people wonder why they are beat up for being nerdy....

"My Loganwing will beat up your Footdar list." Hell I play this game and would have a hard time not wanting to lock that person in a locker or flush their head down a toilet.

Yeah some of us make worthwhile comments unlike others (Sven) who post solely to point out that someone was trolling a post (which is also trolling btw).

edit: if you already did it you failed, you still have a double post which say the EXACT same thing.

Back to OP: No the eldar codex does not suck, look at some of the other lists out there, some are quite fun and do fairly well, while they are not bottom tier I will admit though they are not the best and most competitive lists out there.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ugh here we go again with all this tier bullshit and all this "if you run list A you'll never win games, but if you run list Z you will always win games", I remember saying once that people rely solely on the list they copy off the internet to win games and playing the more recent codex's pretty much guaranteed instant wins, the response was by the competetive community was one of hate and scorn and threats to burn my testicles, yet look at yourselves these days, your doing exactly what I said, its hilarious.

DE and Eldar are NOT starting to suck, neither is any other army, players are starting to suck, you've all become so fixed on mech and spamming units and fucking tiers bollocks that you no longer have any basic skills required to use units in combination with other units, as rules have dumbed down players have just simply gotten dumber.

I have seen lists labeled as uncompetetive win time and time and time again by players who simply know what they are doing with those lists against armies that should table them with no effort, against lists that play themselves, now I know this cannot be taken as evidence because its not "swiss" or whatever the latest bullshit excuse is for "I am never wrong LALALALALALALALA not listening not listening" but I don't care.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Ouch, it really hurts that you think your a much more worthwhile poster than me. and I wasnt trolling you actually, I asked you if you actually meant the most common name for the most common lists, it was you who got defensive. Seeing as how your an Eldar player is more than a little surprising you havent noticed either of them if you have been around the Eldar lists section.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Not all that much defensive, I really just think they sound stupid but eh what ever. No I do not go there as I don't play much and when I do I try and come up with original lists. I mainly stick to the painting area.

I was actually coming back to edit and delete my post since I really did not want to get into a mudslinging match but you had already quoted it so WTH eh?

But on a lighter note everytime I hear Footdar I think of:


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## projectda (May 12, 2008)

i play DE, and ive been doing very well.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80407
im looking to change it a bit, but its 4/2/1 i think. im still working on it though


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

I think your an idiot for a very different reason than djinn24. Summed up in the following.




Before The Closure said:


> As somebody who has played as and owned every army except inquisition and necrons, there is a lot of strategy to any possible build you could run. Razor marines for instance can stack fists/melta and assault cannons in units with their transports. The problem is the unit can rarely destroy anything on its own, so the army as a whole has to move in a more fluid and organic fashion, as opposed to eldar which are more solid and angular. Even your big armies, guard/wolves/ba have a very high level of depth required to master them.
> 
> What eldar have is a subpar list, and that is less forgiving. It has nothing to do with the eldar playstyle, and everything to do with its codex power. You have basically said that an out of date codex with sub par monobuilds is less forgiving than a modern one, well sure, thats practically a tautology. Having played eldar since 3rd I can tell you, when their book was up to date they were far from a tactical or unforgiving army.


What eldar have is a subpar list, and that is less forgiving. It has nothing to do with the eldar playstyle, and everything to do with its codex power.....:suicide:

It has everything to do with 'playstyle', I have beaten Guard with my eldar more times than I have lost, same with wolves (however we only played 1 game eeesh). The codex has flaws, but if you know what your doing, know the rules and actually think about that little old phase called deployment and that other one that people in the internet pretend doesn't exist, oh yh..movement. On paper the eldar dex is weaker than say sm, but it doesn't take into account so many factors that saying it is bound to lose is retarded. Unless of course you play on a completely open board and every single dice roll is 3.5


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Before The Closure said:


> Both eldar and dark eldar are average to bottom tier, depending on the list ran.


Which explains why almost every tournament has an Eldar player in the top 5, of course. 



Before The Closure said:


> mechdar-the best. But has shockingly little firepower, almost no close combat punch, and is built around severely overcosted tanks.


So Bladestorming Avengers with Psychic support and about 18 Fire Dragons in addition to the tank weaponry is "shockingly little"? 8-10 banshees with Psychic support are "no close combat punch"?

You have a pre-conceived idea in your head that just because competitive builds follow an archetype, they must all have identical units, and be the same in every way. Not true. I have yet to see two identical lists in any tournament. People take more of one thing and less of something else, so if they have "no combat punch" it's because they've addressed the "shockingly little firepower" or vice versa.

Yes, the tanks are a little overcosted, but then again most of the time they are as mathematically survivable as a Land Raider, so I'm not complaining much.



Before The Closure said:


> Dark eldar suffer from being paper. Against a solid shooty army that could lose half their tanks in a single turn, and they either opt for very expensive ranged lance weaponry or spamming trueborn in venoms, guys who have to get close in a very easy to kill tank.


Conveniently forgetting that if they go first then they have enough Lances/Blasters to glance-lock about 80% of your vehicles, or that Venom Spam puts out enough anti-infantry firepower to slap anything down that isn't hiding in a vehicle in one round of shooting.



Before The Closure said:


> Both of these armies are capable of winning at average and low levels, but when you get to the top levels of tournament play they suffer from the faults listed above, among many many others.


If by that you mean they perform less well than IG and SW, then yes, you're correct. However just because they aren't as powerful as the two most powerful codicies in the game does not make them "average and low", unless you're willing to label anything that isn't those two armies as the same thing.



Before The Closure said:


> Razor marines for instance can stack fists/melta and assault cannons in units with their transports. The problem is the unit can rarely destroy anything on its own, so the army as a whole has to move in a more fluid and organic fashion, as opposed to eldar which are more solid and angular.


I didn't realise that using two units to kill something instead of just one was more aesthetically pleasing. It's not "fluid and organic" its basic mathematics and probability i.e. "I don't think one razorback can deal with this Chimera, so I'll point 7 Long Fangs at it as well." I will do exactly the same thing with my Eldar/DE... "I don't think this Raider squad can kill this Razorback and the marines inside alone, I'll send a Venom to help them out".

And I have to wonder if you actually have the full use of your eyes if you label Eldar vehicles as "solid and angular" while describing Razorbacks and Rhinos as "fluid and organic"... :laugh:


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## LordOwlingtonIII (Jan 7, 2011)

I think I'll start a thread how my all artilery guard army can't win any tournaments.

But Dark Eldar are perfectly fine, just not very forgiving. It's amazing how often the requirement for perfect play gets mistranslated into being not very good.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

aireoth said:


> The only way I've been able to win is when I design a list 100% tailored to killing a specific enemy, which I consider power gaming.


first time ive heard anyone complain about winning...power gaming?...sounds like sound miltarty thinking to me...why field an anti-infantry army against tanks?...thats part of the beauty of this game...you have these diffrent units...that you take to deal with diffrent situations...and you tailor your choices in a way as to give you the best chance of defeating a specific enemy, its called Warhammer 40k..."All comers" and "General" lists are the real cheese since your taking half the codex and throwing it out the window...since when has "playing" the game "as intended" become such a point of dispute as to literaly cripple your ability to have fun...and thats not to say that the only way to have fun is by winning...simply that you seem so perplexed about the way the game is suposed to be played that your enjoyment of it is sucked right out of you...

...im sure Eldar and Dark Eldar only use one tactic...staunchly and infalably adhering to one specific method of engagement...see how rediculous that sounds?...what fluff says that either of these armies are so close minded to military prowess...an Army that cannot adapt...cannot survive...

...we need to hang this whole "Power/Competative Play" notion...its "Power Gaming" to have one list that is effective against everything (if there WAS such a thing)...otherwise its called "Utilizing your Codex"...it really is the weakest excuse out there...is it the new "Cool" or something to try and put yourself above someone else cause you run your army in a less effective way?...pointless


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Assuming I'm reading this right, you couldn't be more wrong.



Flayed 0ne said:


> first time ive heard anyone complain about winning...power gaming?...sounds like sound miltarty thinking to me...why field an anti-infantry army against tanks?...thats part of the beauty of this game...you have these diffrent units...that you take to deal with diffrent situations...and you tailor your choices in a way as to give you the best chance of defeating a specific enemy, its called Warhammer 40k..."All comers" and "General" lists are the real cheese since your taking half the codex and throwing it out the window...since when has "playing" the game "as intended" become such a point of dispute as to literaly cripple your ability to have fun...and thats not to say that the only way to have fun is by winning...simply that you seem so perplexed about the way the game is suposed to be played that your enjoyment of it is sucked right out of you...


So because it makes sense that armies would adapt to overcome one another in the fluff, everyone should sit down and write hate lists against one another rather than use all comers lists. Yeah, I don't think I need to say much about this one. The ravenous masses will tear you apart. Suffice it to say that writing an all-comers list is far from "cheese" or crippling anyone's (well, most anyone's, at least) ability to have fun.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Before The Closure said:


> Thats it, eldar cant compete at the top levels anymore.


Dark Eldar hasn't been around long enough for that call to really be made. Considering the army is much less forgiving then any of the SM books, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the learning curve may be higher. I would hold judgement on the book is competitive or not until some tourneys are done.



Flayed 0ne said:


> first time ive heard anyone complain about winning...power gaming?...sounds like sound miltarty thinking to me...why field an anti-infantry army against tanks?...thats part of the beauty of this game...you have these diffrent units...that you take to deal with diffrent situations...and you tailor your choices in a way as to give you the best chance of defeating a specific enemy, its called Warhammer 40k..."All comers" and "General" lists are the real cheese since your taking half the codex and throwing it out the window...since when has "playing" the game "as intended" become such a point of dispute as to literaly cripple your ability to have fun...and thats not to say that the only way to have fun is by winning...simply that you seem so perplexed about the way the game is suposed to be played that your enjoyment of it is sucked right out of you...
> 
> ...im sure Eldar and Dark Eldar only use one tactic...staunchly and infalably adhering to one specific method of engagement...see how rediculous that sounds?...what fluff says that either of these armies are so close minded to military prowess...an Army that cannot adapt...cannot survive...
> 
> ...we need to hang this whole "Power/Competative Play" notion...its "Power Gaming" to have one list that is effective against everything (if there WAS such a thing)...otherwise its called "Utilizing your Codex"...it really is the weakest excuse out there...is it the new "Cool" or something to try and put yourself above someone else cause you run your army in a less effective way?...pointless


This hurts to read, so many segues, I'm not even sure what the idea is. Are you saying you don't like competitive play and all comers lists or do you not like people standing on their high horse for playing a less effective army?


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Eldar being average I can understand. Its true, they are. They are not too powerful but they can put out a fairly competitive build that can compete in the big leagues. They are not up to SW and IG power by any means, however, but then again no one is. They may lose from a bit, but they do have a much higher potential than others in these upper point ranges.

By -Closure's statements IG and SW are the best in strength (as they are the two that really boast a significant advantage over Eldar) while everyone else is simply average or worse. That's a pretty steep bell curve, but ok. That means that if there are 2 "good" codex there should be only be roughly 2 "bad" codex as well. Since we know that Eldar don't fall into the bottom 2 slots, competitively, then we can assume that we are simply average.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Dude....Eldar are awesome.

Their entire army is made up of specialists, and the Wraith units own. I should know, I'm an Eldar player.

I've tied an Imperial Guard army (and even then, it was 'only' because his Valkerie trashed my Fire Prism) no problem. In that same game my Dark Reapers ALONE killed a command squad, half a heavy weapons team and a unit of rank-and-file guardsmen (made the officer run off the board, too).


I'm not sure about DE, haven't seen them played before. But I do know that, played to their strengths, Craftworld Eldar are a great army.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Eleven said:


> In my opinion, when someone is starting a new army, it is a huge disservice to them to recommend anything other than the most powerful things they could choose. If the player constantly loses with his new army because it is subpar, he will likely lose interest in the army very quickly (which is exactly what is happening to the OP).
> 
> Just because you can play well with certain options as a long time eldar vet doesn't mean you should suggest them to a new eldar player. Just recommend to new players the strongest things they could be choosing and as they become veterans themselves, they will experiment with options that are not optimal.


"Strong things" depend on the person playing them, however. It's subjective.
I got started with Dark Eldar; no psykers.
So moving to different armies, I just didn't use them, and a lot of times when I did take them, I'd either watch them suffer Perils of the Warp, or I'd forget to use their abilities entirely.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Before The Closure said:


> Awwww thats cute, your raging over terms like footdar. Im sure that people like you, who get angry at 'mechdar' are very successful in the real world. Keep on trollan douche bag, youll be remembered by many after you die as a contributing member of society.


Raging? No, annoyed by childish terms, yes.

Trolling because I called you out as an idiotic twat? 

Me: 5300 posts, member of the month, damn near more tutorials published here than anyone, painting contest winner.

You: 5 post douchenozzle









This is my non HO personna. SGT Killian, US Army, 2 time Iraq war vet, Army Combatives Instructor, oh and I do computer building and repair on the side.

But I joined up to protect the freedom of speech for dipshits like you. Why don't you go troll Warseer some more, they like your kind there.

As for success, hate to tell you but sitting in your moms basement sniffing panty fumes isn't success. I may not be the richest person here but I know I get pride out of what I do.

Anyways keep it up scrub, you make me laugh.:yahoo:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Before The Closure said:


> So the game comes down to who goes first? That doesnt sound like a very competitive army. If I go first and my opponent doesnt seize I can win!!!! You are convienently forgetting that reliance on first turn is one of the worst things a competitive army can have.
> :lazy2:


Hey, someone else who doesn't actually bother to read what I said and just infers. Lovely. You said "DE lose half their vehicles on turn 1" to which I reply "Not if they get turn 1", to which you automatically assume that I meant "they have to get turn 1 in order to win". I didn't say that. If the DE knows who is getting turn 1 then he can deploy his army in such a manner as to minimise fire lanes and therefore his losses. Playing with DE I have have yet to lose more than 2 vehicles on turn one (regardless of who gets it), against anyone. That's no better or worse than any other mech list that isn't tri-raider.




Before The Closure said:


> Basically, if a list cant compete with the best books in the game, its average or bad. Im not sure why you bothered to type this.


So according to you, there are only two codicies in the entire game that are "good" at tournaments, and every single other book is crap or average? So why do other armies (Eldar, CSM, DE, Daemons, Others...) keep consistently placing in the top 3 or even beating out those armies to number one? There are only two tiers of power? Please.



Before The Closure said:


> Psychic support isnt that reliable with rune priests and librarians on the field. 18 dragons=3 dead tanks, and then the dragons die. What they dont add is suppression fire. Keeping that vendetta from immobilizing or killing your tank before you get near it. Banshees are awful, vulnerable to shooting, weak against a fair amount of units, and reliant on above mentioned unreliable fire support.


Yes, I'm going to mention two units that are the direct counter to your units, and thereby prove that your units are bad across the board. Oh, wait... You mean to say that only Space Wolves (arguably the strongest dex in the game) have Rune priests? And only Vanilla Space Marines and BA have Libbies? Of COURSE that means that Farseers are "unreliable". Why didn't I see that? Ignoring the fact that *in my experience* a competent Eldar player can slap an equally competent Vanilla Marine player off the table about 60-70% of the time anyway.



Before The Closure said:


> Against melta sure, but ill happily shoot my rockets into your serpents before a raider.


Great. Enjoy the fact that I ignore 75% of your damaging hits because I have a Fortuned cover save. k:



Before The Closure said:


> With marines I only need to point one unit at each of yours, with eldar you have to point multiple at each of mine.


Wait, didn't you just say:



Before The Closure said:


> Razor marines for instance can stack fists/melta and assault cannons in units with their transports. The problem is the unit can rarely destroy anything on its own


So would you please make up your mind? You can either solo my units with a single Razor-mounted unit or you can't. I'd be leaning towards "can't" so you point means squat. Every army has to work with it's component parts in order to obtain results - no army in the game has individual units that function perfectly on their own and are capable of taking down any target all by themselves. I have to aim a Farseer, Falcon and Avengers at you in order to kill your rhino squad. You need to aim your 5 man missile team and your Razorback/Melta/Fist squad at my Serpents in order to bring them down. There is no difference.



Before The Closure said:


> Solid and angular were references to playstyle, not aesthetics, I havent made a single aesthetic statement in any of my posts.


So maybe you'd like to explain exactly what you did mean, because I have a real hard time working out exactly what the difference is between two mech armies that drive around in transports before getting out to shoot - or indeed how you're labelling the faster and more synergy-based army as being more "blocky".

I agree, Eldar are not the most powerful codex. However out of a dozen books, only two are competing for that title, so I think you're mistaken in your semantics by labelling every other army as equally terrible if they're not one of those two. It's like labelling every car that isn't an F1 car "average" without noticing that there are Jaguars and Ford Fiestas in that line up, and you're lumping them into the same box.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Raging? No, annoyed by childish terms, yes.
> 
> Trolling because I called you out as an idiotic twat?
> 
> ...


djinn I'd just like to point out the fact that heresy-online boasts quite a large number of military personnel from multiple countries, and most of them are combat veterans, to include myself. 

I'd also like to point out that Before the Closure simply posted his opinion and you called him a fucking moron for using certain terms. When he responded in kind you put out the "protect your freedom of speech" line and throw up a picture of your class-a's? 

Please don't do that. It reeks of hypocrisy at best and makes the rest of us look bad at worst. Thanks.


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## vinsklortho (Jan 28, 2011)

Is the army childish for using terms like MEDEVAC instead of medical evacuation? Psy-ops instead of psychological operations? ARCOM for army commendation medal?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Your Homie Manus said:


> Trollin


Guys lets follow simple logic.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

haha you guys are crazy but keep it up this is hilarious


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

gally912 said:


> djinn I'd just like to point out the fact that heresy-online boasts quite a large number of military personnel from multiple countries, and most of them are combat veterans, to include myself.
> 
> I'd also like to point out that Before the Closure simply posted his opinion and you called him a fucking moron for using certain terms. When he responded in kind you put out the "protect your freedom of speech" line and throw up a picture of your class-a's?
> 
> Please don't do that. It reeks of hypocrisy at best and makes the rest of us look bad at worst. Thanks.


If you had read from the first post on I did not call him an idiot for using the terms, I called his post about Eldar being a bottom tier list Moronic, and the fact that he used the terms proof of that. If you are going to stand on a soap box and preach, get your facts correct and at least quote me correctly. I said the terms where fucking moronic, I called him a fucking idiot.



> Awwww thats cute, your raging over terms like footdar. Im sure that people like you, who get angry at 'mechdar' are very successful in the real world. Keep on trollan douche bag, youll be remembered by many after you die as a contributing member of society.


The other reply was to this, sorry I don't take kindly to what he said.

To the rest of the folks with 1 and 2 posts, I would not be shocked to find out you where the same person making other accounts. 

Internet Combatives Instructor? Wow really, lol. God I wish it would have been that simple, to be truthful it was 3 weeks of getting the shit kicked out of you for 8 hours a day.

And for fucks sake no really I am not mad, yes the term Footdar and Mechdar annoy the shit out of me, I dunno why but its a nails on chalk board reaction.



Your Homie Manus said:


> Congrats, I re-registered on this crappy forum to make fun of you for being a total chode. Lets begin shall we. Its people like you that give people like me and most other gamers a bad rep in society.


Um, grats? People like you? And what exactly would that be?



Your Homie Manus said:


> Im pretty sure u mad. Childish terms like footdar and mechdar? Seriously? Someone takes their space elf toys too seriously. People do this all the time, plane for airplane, car for automobile, jackass for antisocial idiot, etc.


Nope not mad and yes the meme footdar and mechdar sound stupid, maybe they don't to you but if you go back a few pages I mentioned that before.



Your Homie Manus said:


> Oh man, I got more posts on heresy-online than you, Im so cool. Oh wow, member of the month on a site filled with trolls, like yourself. Tutorials, like what? "How to make yourself look like a jackass in front of everyone 101 and How to pretend you arent a scrub 101?


Yep maybe I made myself look like a jackass, happens every now and then. Scrub 101 huh, let me guess your going to step up and suddenly your in the Army too? That or have you watched band of brothers to much. Grats you recognize the patch I wear, good job.



Your Homie Manus said:


> Thats cute, your in the army. Guess what, that has absolutely nothing to do with the terms footdar and mechdar. You need to get yourself an internet combatives instructor, maybe he can ease that butthurt. Computer building and repair on the side? Once again, what the fuck does having been to iraq in the army and doing computer repair have to do with terms that 95% of the internet uses?


Maybe if you would read and see that my reply at that point had nothing to do with some stupid terms.



Your Homie Manus said:


> Wow seriously, you went there. Thanks from all of us for protecting our freedumbs to say things like mechdar. If I say mechguard instead of Mechanized vehicle based imperial guard, do you get butthurt? Does saying things like Twolves instead of thunder wolf cavalry make your ring burn? Im glad theres brave people like you, fighting the Iraqis and Afghanis, who were trying to take away our freedumbs to say things like that on 40k forums. The whole gaming community owes you.


No actually only those two bother me all that much, like I said nails on chalkboard.



Your Homie Manus said:


> Yeah ok, so basically you dont have an argument but are too big of a dumbass and too prideful to admit you stepped over the line. Good job buddy, glad we have people like you protecting us.


Argument for what? So far there is 4 different things going on. His comment on how Eldar are Subpar? Argument, they do well in competition, they may not be the top, but they are far from the bottom of the listings. Footdar/Mechdar: 16 years of playing 40k and never heard terms like this. Now they are the sudden rage? I believe they sound stupid. Not the fact that people use abbreviations in general, just those two. They screw out Yu Gi Oh wanna be shit. Seriously, you think it sounds cool? 

Anyways, back to painting because OMFG, I am so pissed off.:ireful2: 

Anyways shit like this is why we are the best board , nothing says fun like a nice little flamewar (puts on nomex undies).


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

djinn. You are military so i'm gonna assume you were drunk when you posted that picture of yourself and started bragging about irl on a warhammer forum.

Footdar doesn't sound THAT stupid. It's the perfect way to summarize a shitty build...like footdar.

And what's up with you hating on kids that play yu-gi-oh? I don't get it. Though I don't play yu-gi-oh, why are you gonna get mad at a kid for playing a children's card game? 

No one is gonna agree with you on this topic, just let it go and people will rapidly forget about this whole thing, haha.

::edit:: SGT Killian? My IRL name is Lord Slayalot Killsmith.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Nice name XP

I play a footdar army and it pwns. Dark Reapers, enough said. (okay I do have 2 tanks)


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Eleven said:


> d
> 
> Footdar doesn't sound THAT stupid. It's the perfect way to summarize a shitty build...like footdar.


 Just because you use it doesn't mean it isn't retarded.




Eleven said:


> And what's up with you hating on kids that play yu-gi-oh? I don't get it. Though I don't play yu-gi-oh, why are you gonna get mad at a kid for playing a children's card game?


he never said anything about the kids, he compared the retarded terms with the names of the cards



Eleven said:


> No one is gonna agree with you on this topic, just let it go and people will rapidly forget about this whole thing, haha.
> 
> ::edit:: SGT Killian? My IRL name is Lord Slayalot Killsmith.


Mkaing fun of another person's name ( in this case, Killian) is tasteless and show you to be the fool. 


BTW I agree with Djinn24.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Eleven said:


> djinn. You are military so i'm gonna assume you were drunk when you posted that picture of yourself and started bragging about irl on a warhammer forum.
> 
> Footdar doesn't sound THAT stupid. It's the perfect way to summarize a shitty build...like footdar.
> 
> ...


Actually I was in a rush getting ready for dinner if you must know.

To each their own, maybe I should hang in the list section for the forums more but I already went over the visual I get when I hear the term.

Have you ever been in a card shop during Yu Gi Oh night? Its fricking HORRID. You think a standard gaming is bad in packs, try our younger counterparts hyped up on caffine and sugar!

But no I was ultimately not making fun of them, they are the next generation of gamer, hell some of the folk here on this forum are probably a yu-gi kids. But on the same token Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic players had a bad habit of naming the deck builds some of the dumbest shit I had ever heard, thus the references to Yu-Gi-Oh players.

If I had been drunk you would have gotten a MUCH worse picture then me in my class As (and bow tie). No I posted that pic and went on that rant because asshole said something. Its quoted at least twice since he made the comment so if you want to read it, scroll up. 

I just find it funny I call a build name fucking moronic, but some dude pretty much says I am a nobody in society and would be better off dead (my taking of what he said) and I get to be the defending myself for 2 days lol.

No idea what you are implying to with my name, like I made up the fact that my name is Killian? Well I did not if that is the case, I have pics of me in uniform that show my name tape but fuck that. As much as this thread is funny rather not open that can of worms again.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Fuck it, Djinn you seem cool enough. I'll just have to agree to disagree about naming builds. ::shrug::

You'll have to forgive me as I view bringing your real life into a forum argument as kind of the ultimate in internet toughguyism.

On another page, I don't feel you should be offended by some guy saying you amount to nothing on a forum. The way I view it, here on the forum our only credentials are our accomplishments in 40k and what we have done here on this forum.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Eleven said:


> Fuck it, Djinn you seem cool enough. I'll just have to agree to disagree about naming builds. ::shrug::


Fair enough.

I do have to say I now want to paint up Eldar like the Foot Clan because of this discussion!


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I do have to say I now want to paint up Eldar like the Foot Clan because of this discussion!


Haha, if I ever had guardians, this would be a strong temptation.


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## LordOwlingtonIII (Jan 7, 2011)

My real name is Lord Benjamin Owlington III, of the Yorkshire Owlingtons, eigth Earl of Old Newbrunswik, bowler of the One-Eighty-Sevens. Ninty-second-thousandth in line for the British throne, and Thirty-Second in line for the Throne of the Sweeds.
And by my holy right as Lord, peasents, I deem the term "Footdar" as "kinda silly."

Also, Djinn, you can get in trouble for posting your name, rank, and photograph.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

All my guardians are at home, but I so know what I am going to do when I get back. 

Also I would not have brought it up on the forums until I precieved as being attacked in such a way. I rarely get into disoputes on the forums. But gotta let loose once and a while.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Per which reg/miper message? If that was the case damn near every Soldier on facebook would be in trouble inaddition to organisational websites because they post the same. Not like I am using this in a form of protest, for politcal gain or influence, or anthing of the such.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I can imagine it's not easy to make rules for a glass cannon force like the Eldar/DE. I think it's easy to make them too overpowered, and also extremely easy to make them underpowered. I feel your pain, but there are definitely ways to play both Eldar and DE competitively right now - although over half their codices are teh suck.

Eldar and DE both have above average unit variety. Imagine the pain of the Necrons, they have like 2 units lol.

And Tau, who have 1 viable competition unit right now (XV8)

So Eldar and DE don't have it nearly as bad. They, as everyone else, must choose to be fluffy & sucky, or competitive & bored.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> All my guardians are at home, but I so know what I am going to do when I get back.


You are overseas right now eh? Sucks. A buddy of mine that just came back said that the incentives to deploy as a sergeant are pretty enticing. I don't know much about the subject honestly.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

No, luckily I am just on vacation tho when I was deployed last time I came home to 20,000 points of Eldar, Iraq + Ebay + trade forums = gewd!

At least my last name isn't Killer or Major! Anyways there is a good named tied to my name.

hmmmm beer

Maybe it is time to get drunk and then start posting pics ;p you will wish me in Class A's is all you saw LOL.

Hmmm Foot Clan Footdar and TMNT Space Marines . Now to find a good rat model for my Chapter Master Splinter.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> Hmmm Foot Clan Footdar and TMNT Space Marines . Now to find a good rat model for my Chapter Master Splinter.


Considering GWS has an entire line of rat models, this shouldn't be that hard, lol.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> hmmmm beer
> 
> Maybe it is time to get drunk and then start posting pics ;p you will wish me in Class A's is all you saw LOL.


We are all in trouble now.......:shok:


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Highly buzzed, check
Phone with camera, check
charged battery...... shit

You all where VERY lucky .


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Can we get back on-topic people?


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

A guy at my local GW was at Throne of Skulls last week with an Iyanden army of the dead, full of Wraithguard and Wraithlords. Even with an army that probably isn't to competitive he won two games so I'd say they're still quite competitive.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

That the exact list I take when I play. Not all the great but fun as heck. The issue I had was capturing objectives. I maybe playing in a tournament in Feburary and that is what I will be playing. If for some reason this thread is kicking around I will post how well I got my ass kicked!


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> That the exact list I take when I play. Not all the great but fun as heck. The issue I had was capturing objectives. I maybe playing in a tournament in Feburary and that is what I will be playing. If for some reason this thread is kicking around I will post how well I got my ass kicked!


Haha, my guess would be throttled! But more power to ya.

Another interesting factoid about Wraithguard is that they are almost a dollar a point!

A dollar a point is INSANE. Yes I realize that rhinos are a dollar per point, but your troops should simply not be costing this much.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

See, i'm thinking there must be something wrong with me, cos unlike a fair few posters on this thread, instead of thinking "this codex is subpar, i'd rate its competetive ability below that of vanilla SM but above tau..." and so on and so on, my thought processes go something along the lines of "OH MY GOD THEY'RE SO COOL HOW CAN I HAVE ALL OF THEM? Oh god i'm gonna be spending loads of money again but WHO CARES ABOUT FOOD WHEN THEY'RE SO COOL!!!" So generally my opinion on competetive matters is a little off cos i play this fantasy game for fun... Anyhow, for what its worth, Eldar have been pretty well covered, but IMO Dark Eldar need a little more time before they're considered bad, come on, they haven't even had the second wave of miniatures released yet! 

Oh, and about the Mechdar/Footdar thing? I have dallied with YuGiOh in the past, and i have to agree with Djinn. Its not as bad as "Flip-Flap Control" (Yes, that was the name of a long-obsolete deck type) but its still kinda pitiful.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Eleven said:


> Haha, my guess would be throttled! But more power to ya.
> 
> Another interesting factoid about Wraithguard is that they are almost a dollar a point!
> 
> A dollar a point is INSANE. Yes I realize that rhinos are a dollar per point, but your troops should simply not be costing this much.


I've seen Iyanden armies do very well in tournaments, actually.
Unless you're using poisoned weapons, they're actually fairly hard to take out.
Even then, they have a good save.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

A Fortuned good save! Indeed, a good Iyanden list will be getting a save from almost every ranged attack. Its the melee stuff that can be scary. A squad with rending or a powerfist or two can be pretty intimidating for Wraith units. But, they have to get close to do the damage and that is where Wraithguard wants them!

I agree that when it comes to Iyanden lists that simply capping objectives is the biggest struggle. You simply don't have the board control of fast skimmers. However, you are pretty stout in return.


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