# =][= Rumours Roundup : Sisters of Battle - White Dwarf Released



## MadCowCrazy

*=][= Rumours Roundup : Sisters of Battle - Updated : 02/09/2011 Now has everything*

Predictions Section

1 Year Prognosis
2011
May : Tomb Kings 100%
June : Dark Eldar 2nd Wave 100%
July : Fantasy Storm of Magic 100%
August : Codex: Sisters of Battle WD update part 1, Vampire Counts monster model 100%
September : Codex: Sisters of Battle WD update part 2 100%, Ogre Kingdoms 100%, Mystery Box (Specialists Release)
October : Necrons
November : Bretonnian Knights?
December : Nothing as usual

Summer of Fliers (Wartorn Skies?), Tyranid Wave 2, plastic Pathfinders and Vespids are rumoured release candidates for 2011, but where?
10/04/2011 - Bindi Baji: Necron September release/"Before October"
18/04/2011 - ghost21: Necron August release
24/04/2011 - ghost21: I do have it on authority necrons are way before haloween thats when ogres are pegged in 
26/04/2011 - Warmongergameday: Q4 Bretonnian Knights Link
28/04/2011 - ghost21: in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo 
24/05/2011 - ghost21: necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens
24/05/2011 - BramGaunt: September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)
25/05/2011 - Harry: I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.
27/06/2011 - Captain Ventris: The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago).


2012
2012: Sisters of Battle and/or Tau
Q2 or Q3: 40K 6th Edition, Black Templars and Chaos Legions (new chaos daemons codex) starter sets


Sisters of Battle
Army Special Rules
*The Acts of Faith system*
At the start of your Movement phases you generate D6 Faith Points. Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of YOUR turn are lost.
*Tests of Faith*
An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. before the unit Moves, Shoots (or runs) or Assaults.
Each attempt costs 1 Faith Point, if test if failed the point is lost.
To attempt an Act of Faith, select the unit and reduce your Faith Points by 1, then roll a D6 and add the following:
+1 if the unit is led by a Superior (Sister, Celestian, Dominion, Seraphim or Retributor) or Mistress of Repentance.
+1 if the unit has been joined by a Canoness, Confessor, Saint Celestine, Uriah Jacobus or Arch-Confessor Kyrinov
+1 if the unit has taken at least 1 casualty
All modifiers are cumulative (so with 1 IC in a unit with a Superior that has taken at least 1 casualty only a 2+ is needed to be successful)
If the total is equal to or greater than 5 the Act of Faith is successful, the unit immediately gains a bonus and/or special rules until the end of the phase.

*Independent Characters and Acts of Faith*
IC that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by the unit they are with when an Act of Faith is used, likewise the unit receives any bonuses from the ICs Acts of Faith when they are successful. Note you still have to perform 2 different Tests of Faith if you want to use both the ICs and the units Act of Faith.

*Shield of Faith*
Models with the Shield of Faith special rule have a 6+ invulnerable save.

Special Characters
*Saint Celestine*
7/7/3/3/3/7/5/10/2+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Fearless, Shield of Faith
Miraculous Intervention: When killed remove model and place a token, from then on roll a D6 at the start of your turn. On a 4+ Celestine comes back with D3 wounds and placed within 1" of the token. If she would be within 1" of another model (friend and foe?) move her the minimum distance possible so she is not within 1". She can act normally in a turn in which she resurrects. She does not award a kill point if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game.

Wargear: Frag, krak, jump pack
Armour of Saint Katherine: Confers a 2+ armour save and 4++ invulnerable save
The Ardent Blade: Power weapon that always wounds on 4+ (unless a lower roll is required). Can also be fired like a Heavy Flamer (Template: S5 AP4 Assault1)

*Arch-Confessor Kyrinov*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Fearless, IC, Righteous Rage, Shield of Faith
Heightened Fervour: Counts as having both a Laud Hailer and Simulacrum Imperialis

Wargear: Flak armour, bolt pistol, frag, krak and rosarius
Mace of Valaan: Power weapon, any model that suffers an unsaved Wound is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following player turn.
Icon of Chiros: All friendly units within 6" are Fearless

*Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Righteous Rage, Stubborn, IC, Shield of Faith
Protector of the Faith: While alive you can re-roll the dice to determine the number of Faith Points you have each turn.

Wargear: Flak armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag, krag, rosarius
The Redeemer: His personal shotgun (24" S4 Ap4 Assault 2)
The Banner of Sanctity: Models in Jacobus unit have +1A and Feel no Pain

HQ
*Canoness*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Stubborn, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = The Passion - Assault Phase: Canoness and her unit receives +1I and Preferred Enemy special rule until the end of the Assault phase.
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Sororitas Command Squad*
Celestian 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Sister Dialogus 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/9/3+ 6++
Sister Hospitaller 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Endless Crusade - Movement Phase: Unit gains Relentless and Move Through Cover special rules until the end of the turn.

Wargear: Power armour, boltgun (Celestians only), bolt pistol, frag, krak, Chirurgeon's tools (Sister Hostpitaller only), Laud Hailer (Sister Dialogus only).

Troops
*Battle Sisters*
Battle Sisters 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Sister Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak
Act of Faith = Light of the Emperor - Movement Phase: Unit immediately regroups, despite any normal restrictions (enemy within 6", less than 50%).
Shooting and Assault Phase: Unit can re-roll any failed To Hit rolls of a 1 until the end of the phase.
This Act of Faith can be used in two or more phases if you choose but each attempt costs 1FP and requires a Test of Faith

Elite
*Celestians*
Celsetian 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Celestian Superior 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/8/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Hand of the Emperor - Assault Phase: +1S and Fearless until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Sister Repentia*
Sister Repentia 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/8/- 6++
Mistress of Repentance 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Fearless, Feel no Pain, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Spirit of the Martyr - Assault Phase: Models killed may make a single attack once all other attacks have been resolved.
Wargear: A Sister Repentia has an Eviscerator; a Mistress of Penitence has power armour, two neural whips, frag and krak

*Ecclesiarchy*
Ecclesiarchy Confessor 5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Ecclesiarchy Preacher 3/3/3/3/1/4/2/7/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Shield of Faith
Righteous Rage: When a model with this rule assaults the unit may re-roll to hit.
Wargear: Flag armour, laspistol, chainsword, frag, krak, rosarius

*Ecclesiarch Battle Conclaves*
Arco-Flagellants 5/3/4/3/1/3/4/8/-
Crusader 4/3/3/3/1/3/1/8/5+ 3++
Death Cult Assassin 5/3/4/3/1/6/2/8/5+ 5++
Special Rules: Feel no Pain (Arco-flagellants only).
Uncanny Reflexes: Death Cult Assassins has a 5++ invulnerable save
Wargear: A Crusader has flak armour, power weapon and storm shield.
An Arco-Flagellant has arco-flails (close combat weapon).
A Death Cult Assassin has flak armour and two power weapons.

Fast Attack
*Seraphim*
Seraphim 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Seraphim Superior 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Hit and Run, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = The Emperor's Deliverance - Shooting Phase: Re-roll any failed To Wound rolls until the end of the phase.
Seraphim Pistols: Any model in a Seraphim squad that is armed with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase. If they do so, they can fire no other weapon that turn.
Angelic Visage: Seraphim re-roll failed Act of Faith rolls and failed Invulnerable saves granted by the Shield of Faith special rule
Wargear: Power armour, two bolt pistols, frag, krak, jump pack

*Dominions*
Dominion 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Dominion Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Scouts, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Holy Fusillade - Shooting Phase: All weapons in unit becomes twin-linked until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

Heavy Support
*Retributors*
Retributor 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Retributor Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Divine Guidance - Shooting Phase: All weapons in unit become Rending until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Exorcist*
BS4 13/11/10
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Wargear: Exorcist missile launcher, smoke launchers

*Penitent Engines*
4/2/5(10)/3/D6+1 11/11/10
Unit Type: Walker, Open-topped
Special Rules: Rage, Shield of Faith
Unstoppable Rampage: Penitent Engines ignore any crew shaken and crew stunned results on the Vehicle Damage tables.
Battle Frenzy: Every unsaved wound inflicted in close combat generates an additional attack. These extra attacks do not generate further additional attacks.
Wargear: 2 DCCW with built in Heavy Flamers. Note that the bonus for being equipped with 2 DCCWs is already included in the PEs profile

Dedicated Transports
*Rhino*
BS4 11/11/10
Transport: 10 models, it cannot transport models in Terminator armour.
Fire Points: 2 from top hatch
Access Points: 1 on each side and one at the rear
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Repair: If immobilised for any reason can attempt to repair instead of shooting. On a D6 roll of 6 the vehicle is no longer immobilised.
Wargear: Storm bolter, smoke launchers

*Immolator*
BS 4 11/11/10
Transport: 6 models, it cannot transport models in Terminator armour.
Fire Points: None
Access Points: 1 on each side and one at the rear
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Wargear: Twin-linked heavy flamer, smoke launchers


Boxed Sets
Battle Sisters Box, plastic kit (Could be Celestian/Seraphim shared box)
5x Sisters or Seraphim
11 Heads, 5 bare, 5 helmeted and 1 with gasmask/respirator
Flamer, Melta Gun, Storm Bolter, Hand Flamer (both left and right hand), Inferno Gun(?) and Inferno Pistol (both left and right hand), Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Power Weapon, Chain Swords

Penitent Engine Box, plastic kit
4x Different CCW options, aesthetic only?
Flamer or Melta mounts under arms.
Several Driver choices
3 Icon Badges from major orders.
Miscellaneous scroll plates and extra bits

Repressor Box, plastic kit
Similar to Forge World one
Reworked Turrent and different Dozer Blade
Same 3 Icon from Penitent Engine kit but bigger
Numerous scrolls and Sister doors.
2 Driver heads, bare and helmeted

Priest kit, plastic?
Comparable to Empire Wizards kit
Numerous heads
Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer, Book, Eviscerator




Stickmonkey had this to say on the 31st of March


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in news and rumors only as it's relevant to upcoming releases. I received word yesterday my "blackout" clause of my NDA for 3 upcoming codex armies would go in to effect April 1. (ha, that's what I thought too.)
> 
> Those three armies are Tau, Necron, and SoB.
> 
> Now the earliest they've ever enacted this on me before has been 6 months out. And the shortest duration has been 2 months out. I have no info telling me A. What order any of these codexes will be released. B. That they will be consistent with that duration. Just thought it may serve as additional evidence for what's on the horizon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Predictions Section

1 Year Prognosis
2011
May : Tomb Kings 100%
June : Dark Eldar 2nd Wave 100% + Summer of Fliers release?
July : Fantasy Storm of Magic 100%
August : Necrons
September : Mystery Box (Specialists Release)
October : Ogre Kingdoms
November : Sisters of Battle?
December : Nothing as usual

Summer of Fliers (Wartorn Skies?), Tyranid Wave 2, plastic Pathfinders and Vespids are rumoured release candidates for 2011, but where?
10/04/2011 - Bindi Baji: Necron September release/"Before October"
18/04/2011 - ghost21: Necron August release
24/04/2011 - ghost21: I do have it on authority necrons are way before haloween thats when ogres are pegged in 
26/04/2011 - Warmongergameday: Q4 Bretonnian Knights Link
28/04/2011 - ghost21: in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo 
24/05/2011 - ghost21: necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens
24/05/2011 - BramGaunt: September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)
25/05/2011 - Harry: I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.

2012
January : If Q4 Release was Necrons put Sisters of Battle here
Q1 : Depending on who got the 40k winter release we should see either Sisters of Battle and/or Tau Q1
Q2 or Q3 : 40K 6th Edition


Sisters of Battle
Rules
Acts of Faith are still in, but different from their current form pretty drastically. 

Boxed Sets
Battle Sisters Box, plastic kit (Could be Celestian/Seraphim shared box)
5x Sisters or Seraphim
11 Heads, 5 bare, 5 helmeted and 1 with gasmask/respirator
Flamer, Melta Gun, Storm Bolter, Hand Flamer (both left and right hand), Inferno Gun(?) and Inferno Pistol (both left and right hand), Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Power Weapon, Chain Swords

Penitent Engine Box, plastic kit
4x Different CCW options, aesthetic only?
Flamer or Melta mounts under arms.
Several Driver choices
3 Icon Badges from major orders.
Miscellaneous scroll plates and extra bits

Repressor Box, plastic kit
Similar to Forge World one
Reworked Turrent and different Dozer Blade
Same 3 Icon from Penitent Engine kit but bigger
Numerous scrolls and Sister doors.
2 Driver heads, bare and helmeted

Priest kit, plastic?
Comparable to Empire Wizards kit
Numerous heads
Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer, Book, Eviscerator
Well that’s all I have for you for now. Sorry I haven’t much in the way of rules, and that’s always the really exciting part, but I though some folks might like to know a little bit about the new models.





Stickmonkey had this to say on the 31st of March


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in news and rumors only as it's relevant to upcoming releases. I received word yesterday my "blackout" clause of my NDA for 3 upcoming codex armies would go in to effect April 1. (ha, that's what I thought too.)
> 
> Those three armies are Tau, Necron, and SoB.
> 
> Now the earliest they've ever enacted this on me before has been 6 months out. And the shortest duration has been 2 months out. I have no info telling me A. What order any of these codexes will be released. B. That they will be consistent with that duration. Just thought it may serve as additional evidence for what's on the horizon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

*=][= Rumours Roundup : Sisters of Battle - Updated : 02/09/2011 Now has everything*

Predictions Section

1 Year Prognosis
2011
May : Tomb Kings 100%
June : Dark Eldar 2nd Wave 100%
July : Fantasy Storm of Magic 100%
August : Codex: Sisters of Battle WD update part 1, Vampire Counts monster model 100%
September : Codex: Sisters of Battle WD update part 2 100%, Ogre Kingdoms 100%, Mystery Box (Specialists Release)
October : Necrons
November : Bretonnian Knights?
December : Nothing as usual

Summer of Fliers (Wartorn Skies?), Tyranid Wave 2, plastic Pathfinders and Vespids are rumoured release candidates for 2011, but where?
10/04/2011 - Bindi Baji: Necron September release/"Before October"
18/04/2011 - ghost21: Necron August release
24/04/2011 - ghost21: I do have it on authority necrons are way before haloween thats when ogres are pegged in 
26/04/2011 - Warmongergameday: Q4 Bretonnian Knights Link
28/04/2011 - ghost21: in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo 
24/05/2011 - ghost21: necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens
24/05/2011 - BramGaunt: September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)
25/05/2011 - Harry: I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.
27/06/2011 - Captain Ventris: The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago).


2012
2012: Sisters of Battle and/or Tau
Q2 or Q3: 40K 6th Edition, Black Templars and Chaos Legions (new chaos daemons codex) starter sets


Sisters of Battle
Army Special Rules
*The Acts of Faith system*
At the start of your Movement phases you generate D6 Faith Points. Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of YOUR turn are lost.
*Tests of Faith*
An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. before the unit Moves, Shoots (or runs) or Assaults.
Each attempt costs 1 Faith Point, if test if failed the point is lost.
To attempt an Act of Faith, select the unit and reduce your Faith Points by 1, then roll a D6 and add the following:
+1 if the unit is led by a Superior (Sister, Celestian, Dominion, Seraphim or Retributor) or Mistress of Repentance.
+1 if the unit has been joined by a Canoness, Confessor, Saint Celestine, Uriah Jacobus or Arch-Confessor Kyrinov
+1 if the unit has taken at least 1 casualty
All modifiers are cumulative (so with 1 IC in a unit with a Superior that has taken at least 1 casualty only a 2+ is needed to be successful)
If the total is equal to or greater than 5 the Act of Faith is successful, the unit immediately gains a bonus and/or special rules until the end of the phase.

*Independent Characters and Acts of Faith*
IC that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by the unit they are with when an Act of Faith is used, likewise the unit receives any bonuses from the ICs Acts of Faith when they are successful. Note you still have to perform 2 different Tests of Faith if you want to use both the ICs and the units Act of Faith.

*Shield of Faith*
Models with the Shield of Faith special rule have a 6+ invulnerable save.

Special Characters
*Saint Celestine*
7/7/3/3/3/7/5/10/2+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Fearless, Shield of Faith
Miraculous Intervention: When killed remove model and place a token, from then on roll a D6 at the start of your turn. On a 4+ Celestine comes back with D3 wounds and placed within 1" of the token. If she would be within 1" of another model (friend and foe?) move her the minimum distance possible so she is not within 1". She can act normally in a turn in which she resurrects. She does not award a kill point if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game.

Wargear: Frag, krak, jump pack
Armour of Saint Katherine: Confers a 2+ armour save and 4++ invulnerable save
The Ardent Blade: Power weapon that always wounds on 4+ (unless a lower roll is required). Can also be fired like a Heavy Flamer (Template: S5 AP4 Assault1)

*Arch-Confessor Kyrinov*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Fearless, IC, Righteous Rage, Shield of Faith
Heightened Fervour: Counts as having both a Laud Hailer and Simulacrum Imperialis

Wargear: Flak armour, bolt pistol, frag, krak and rosarius
Mace of Valaan: Power weapon, any model that suffers an unsaved Wound is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following player turn.
Icon of Chiros: All friendly units within 6" are Fearless

*Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Righteous Rage, Stubborn, IC, Shield of Faith
Protector of the Faith: While alive you can re-roll the dice to determine the number of Faith Points you have each turn.

Wargear: Flak armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag, krag, rosarius
The Redeemer: His personal shotgun (24" S4 Ap4 Assault 2)
The Banner of Sanctity: Models in Jacobus unit have +1A and Feel no Pain

HQ
*Canoness*
5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Stubborn, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = The Passion - Assault Phase: Canoness and her unit receives +1I and Preferred Enemy special rule until the end of the Assault phase.
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Sororitas Command Squad*
Celestian 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Sister Dialogus 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/9/3+ 6++
Sister Hospitaller 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Endless Crusade - Movement Phase: Unit gains Relentless and Move Through Cover special rules until the end of the turn.

Wargear: Power armour, boltgun (Celestians only), bolt pistol, frag, krak, Chirurgeon's tools (Sister Hostpitaller only), Laud Hailer (Sister Dialogus only).

Troops
*Battle Sisters*
Battle Sisters 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Sister Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak
Act of Faith = Light of the Emperor - Movement Phase: Unit immediately regroups, despite any normal restrictions (enemy within 6", less than 50%).
Shooting and Assault Phase: Unit can re-roll any failed To Hit rolls of a 1 until the end of the phase.
This Act of Faith can be used in two or more phases if you choose but each attempt costs 1FP and requires a Test of Faith

Elite
*Celestians*
Celsetian 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Celestian Superior 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/8/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Hand of the Emperor - Assault Phase: +1S and Fearless until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Sister Repentia*
Sister Repentia 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/8/- 6++
Mistress of Repentance 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Fearless, Feel no Pain, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Spirit of the Martyr - Assault Phase: Models killed may make a single attack once all other attacks have been resolved.
Wargear: A Sister Repentia has an Eviscerator; a Mistress of Penitence has power armour, two neural whips, frag and krak

*Ecclesiarchy*
Ecclesiarchy Confessor 5/5/3/3/3/4/3/10/5+ 4++
Ecclesiarchy Preacher 3/3/3/3/1/4/2/7/5+ 4++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, IC, Shield of Faith
Righteous Rage: When a model with this rule assaults the unit may re-roll to hit.
Wargear: Flag armour, laspistol, chainsword, frag, krak, rosarius

*Ecclesiarch Battle Conclaves*
Arco-Flagellants 5/3/4/3/1/3/4/8/-
Crusader 4/3/3/3/1/3/1/8/5+ 3++
Death Cult Assassin 5/3/4/3/1/6/2/8/5+ 5++
Special Rules: Feel no Pain (Arco-flagellants only).
Uncanny Reflexes: Death Cult Assassins has a 5++ invulnerable save
Wargear: A Crusader has flak armour, power weapon and storm shield.
An Arco-Flagellant has arco-flails (close combat weapon).
A Death Cult Assassin has flak armour and two power weapons.

Fast Attack
*Seraphim*
Seraphim 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Seraphim Superior 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Hit and Run, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = The Emperor's Deliverance - Shooting Phase: Re-roll any failed To Wound rolls until the end of the phase.
Seraphim Pistols: Any model in a Seraphim squad that is armed with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase. If they do so, they can fire no other weapon that turn.
Angelic Visage: Seraphim re-roll failed Act of Faith rolls and failed Invulnerable saves granted by the Shield of Faith special rule
Wargear: Power armour, two bolt pistols, frag, krak, jump pack

*Dominions*
Dominion 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Dominion Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Scouts, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Holy Fusillade - Shooting Phase: All weapons in unit becomes twin-linked until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

Heavy Support
*Retributors*
Retributor 3/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/3+ 6++
Retributor Superior 3/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith
Act of Faith = Divine Guidance - Shooting Phase: All weapons in unit become Rending until the end of the phase
Wargear: Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag, krak

*Exorcist*
BS4 13/11/10
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Wargear: Exorcist missile launcher, smoke launchers

*Penitent Engines*
4/2/5(10)/3/D6+1 11/11/10
Unit Type: Walker, Open-topped
Special Rules: Rage, Shield of Faith
Unstoppable Rampage: Penitent Engines ignore any crew shaken and crew stunned results on the Vehicle Damage tables.
Battle Frenzy: Every unsaved wound inflicted in close combat generates an additional attack. These extra attacks do not generate further additional attacks.
Wargear: 2 DCCW with built in Heavy Flamers. Note that the bonus for being equipped with 2 DCCWs is already included in the PEs profile

Dedicated Transports
*Rhino*
BS4 11/11/10
Transport: 10 models, it cannot transport models in Terminator armour.
Fire Points: 2 from top hatch
Access Points: 1 on each side and one at the rear
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Repair: If immobilised for any reason can attempt to repair instead of shooting. On a D6 roll of 6 the vehicle is no longer immobilised.
Wargear: Storm bolter, smoke launchers

*Immolator*
BS 4 11/11/10
Transport: 6 models, it cannot transport models in Terminator armour.
Fire Points: None
Access Points: 1 on each side and one at the rear
Special Rules: Shield of Faith
Wargear: Twin-linked heavy flamer, smoke launchers


Boxed Sets
Battle Sisters Box, plastic kit (Could be Celestian/Seraphim shared box)
5x Sisters or Seraphim
11 Heads, 5 bare, 5 helmeted and 1 with gasmask/respirator
Flamer, Melta Gun, Storm Bolter, Hand Flamer (both left and right hand), Inferno Gun(?) and Inferno Pistol (both left and right hand), Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Power Weapon, Chain Swords

Penitent Engine Box, plastic kit
4x Different CCW options, aesthetic only?
Flamer or Melta mounts under arms.
Several Driver choices
3 Icon Badges from major orders.
Miscellaneous scroll plates and extra bits

Repressor Box, plastic kit
Similar to Forge World one
Reworked Turrent and different Dozer Blade
Same 3 Icon from Penitent Engine kit but bigger
Numerous scrolls and Sister doors.
2 Driver heads, bare and helmeted

Priest kit, plastic?
Comparable to Empire Wizards kit
Numerous heads
Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer, Book, Eviscerator




Stickmonkey had this to say on the 31st of March


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in news and rumors only as it's relevant to upcoming releases. I received word yesterday my "blackout" clause of my NDA for 3 upcoming codex armies would go in to effect April 1. (ha, that's what I thought too.)
> 
> Those three armies are Tau, Necron, and SoB.
> 
> Now the earliest they've ever enacted this on me before has been 6 months out. And the shortest duration has been 2 months out. I have no info telling me A. What order any of these codexes will be released. B. That they will be consistent with that duration. Just thought it may serve as additional evidence for what's on the horizon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
27/07/2011
Some fluff has popped up. Finally some victories for the Sisters of Battle!
Source


Eumerin said:


> Melissia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.
> 
> - Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
> - A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
> - Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
> - Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
> - The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
> - Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.
> 
> 
> So...
> 
> One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.
> 
> Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.
Click to expand...

23/07/2011
Updated the Predictions section with all the WD information

Seems like someone has finally gotten their hands on this months WD, yet almost nothing new was posted? I'm personally very sceptical to this as 99% of it was posted elsewhere month(s) ago. Until we get confirmation on these rumours I'm holding my breath as it seems like such a huge nerf to the army. 
Unless a Battle Sister now costs 8pts a pop the way the new Faith system is explained seems really useless, D6 FP per turn with a 5+ chance (somewhat modifiable) for success? If the Acts of Faith gave WS10 or BS10 with S10 Rending attacks I could believe it but with the ones rumoured it's seriously nothing you can rely on.
Are Battle Sisters really nothing more than WS3 T3 S3 I3 marines now? With a 2/6 chance to reroll 1s to hit (or wounds as author wasn't sure)? That's rather pathetic if you ask me.
Source


Drachnon said:


> So I bought the new White Dwarf today (not sure if its early over here) with the sisters of battle.
> After reading it once I gave it to a friend who actually plays sisters since he can't study it. Even so I think its time to discuss what we think so far.
> 
> My thoughts:
> The new faith system:
> All units and IC's only have 1 power and you roll a D6 to determine how much points you have each turn. I didn't see any mention of increasing the number of faith points per turn which means sisters will probably get less effective in bigger battles as you'll be starved for faith points even without a bad roll. (hopefully we'll see an answer to this with the next installment of the codex).
> To activate no more leadership test just a D6 with a couple of possible bonuses (like veteran sister as squad leader or having taken a casualty) and it works on 5+ which seems ok to me.
> The powers themselves all seem to be pretty good, nothing broken but I couldn't see any faith powers that seemed completely useless.
> 
> Armor of faith:
> Gives entire almost the army a 6+ inv save even vehicles. I can't think of any downsides to this and seems like a good thing to add a slight bit more survivability.
> 
> The units:
> The entire inquisition/IG part is now gone and the sisters look like they'll have to fend for themselves. I didn't see any new units so you won't have much choice when selecting units (I don't think there'll be more then 2 choices in any FOC section)
> Wargear options will be in the next white dwarf but from what I remember all sister squads except the sisters repentia now have frag and krak grenades.
> 
> So anyone else who has the new WD?





Drachnon said:


> thade said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to their "this unit's armor save is invulnerable for the turn" power? Did that get axed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before all units have only one power each, I haven't memorized them all but I don't think any made their armour invunerable. Keep in mind that now all sisters have a 6+ inv save all the time.
> 
> These are the ones I do remember (though I might be wrong on some points):
> Canonness: +1 initiative and fearless
> Sister battle squad: used in shooting or assault - Reroll 1's to wound (or maybe to hit)
> Sisters repentia: If a model is killed in close combat during higher initiative it can still attack back though with only 1 attack.
> Special weapon squad: Twin linked iirc
> I have no clue about the others.
> 
> I didn't see any new units (also no terminator armor) though I'm not sure about the special characters.
> 
> If the Blood Angel White Dwarf codex was any indication there isn't much hope for new stuff in the next white dwarf, only the points costs for the units given in this white dwarf.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Drachnon said:


> I already addressed that in my first post and yes you only have a D6 per turn the problem seems to be that its always a D6 regardless of the size of the army. So a 500 points army has the same D6 as a 2500 points army meaning there will be 500 points game where you roll 6 and have to much to spend and other time in 2500 points you roll 1 in the turn you really need it for multiple units.


28/06/2011
We are having another rumours drought in anticipation of people getting their hands on the next issue of WD. Here are some small tidbits though.


Captain Ventris said:


> Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
> Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested... Two waves of Necrons are supposed to be released the weekends of Nov. 12 and Dec. 3rd. What models will be in what release is still being discussed, obviously the codex is in the first wave, but he also mentioned that warriors were getting re-cut with the scarabs removed and options added in their place. Scarab swarms are apparently going to a multi-part finecast kit that is more dynamicly posed than just scarabs hovering in place (I'd already done something similar where my scarabs are actuallt bursting from the ground)
> 
> Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
> 
> Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.


15/06/2011
Another good post from BoK, some sad and good rumours.


> What is not in the Codex
> 
> Repressors
> Arbites
> 
> The Units (some more information than others)
> 
> Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.
> 
> Repentia: Forgot to mention they have fleet
> 
> Celastians: Cheaper than a Marine, but not really anything going for them (that I know of)… extra attack. Re-roll hits for act of faith
> 
> Sister Battle Squad: Can still get a Heavy Flamer
> 
> Shraphim: They are pretty amazing. Cheaper than a Space Marine you get a Jump Packing, Hit and Running, and an act of faith that has them re-rolling wounds. You can also upgrade them to run with double hand flamers and melta pistols. They act both as an extra close combat weapon and become assault 2 instead of being twin-linked. So that means Assault 2 melta weapons.
> 
> Dominion Squads: Still get 4 special weapons. Act of Faith twin-linked.
> 
> Retributor Squads: Pretty fantastic. CHEAP! Talking under Long Fang cheap to fully kit out. Expect the return of the Heavy Bolter with these. Act of Faith is Rending.
> 
> Penitent Engines: Again fantastic. Same statline (Walker). No Scout or Infiltrate. Cheaper and can be a squadron aka 9 Engines. They still get the 1D6 attacks, but any wounds generate additional attacks (don’t know if they work like Blood Talons). 6+ Invul (don’t know if they generate faith)


This popped up today, it does make the WD update sound really bad. How much truth there is to this I do not know so all we can do is wait.
Source


-The Jeske (Bolter and Chainsword) said:


> because the rules suck for anyone that has seen them . +6inv is nothing when sobs are close range shoting list and cover everywhere is+4 and in hth they just die and double re-roll to celestines doesnt help here because you need to glue an HQ to them and they cost 16 pts each . which is not ok for a str 3 model , re-rolls or not .
> 
> the faith works too random too and for some units it doesnt make sense . dominions one buffs flamers , but why would you be runing them with flamers when what a sob list needs is anti tank [as sob dont have long range support units in other slots like sm have with dreads , speeders or attack bike]. the serafin one is nice because it works like the old one and with the twin linke re-rolls you ger more chance for rending , but they cost 22 pts and cant use it when you join a non seraf HQ with them [which means your runings a str 3 T 3 unit with 12" range without proper support] .
> there is just no unit synergy between the units . but worse are the "tac" sob who cares they get a a faith power for every occasion when A the chance to get it are avarge [50/50 stuff sucks] and the faith doesnt realy make them like tacticals . because tacticals are t4 str 4 with chapter tactics which buffs them [or they are GH/RAS for BA and we are talking about something cheaper and better at the same time].
> 
> the good change happened to repentia . I told it many times that just giving them FNP or lowering the points cost [unless it was to something like 8 pts each] would not be enough . GW did both making them , well not good , but at least they are not the worse unit in the game anymore . Would be nice sob players could get more units then one [2x12 would be not good but enough for those "fluffy"/fun lists . one unit of 16-18 still kind of a sucks] . the almost auto cast on power when misstress is alive is nice too .
> 
> I wish that exorcist were given GK fortiude because they are still the only viable hvy support [for all round lists of course. I can imagine someone wanting to piss off his green tide friend and playing a 3x4 hvy bolters +3ximolator with hvy bolter set up] .
> 
> lost of book is going to be huge for sob players . Sure one can take the saint ,the banner a unit of serafs or an all celestian army[which imo will suck] but thats 500pts+ for getting a 12" bubble of almost ATSKNF . well one just can hope the sob rhinos will die less or something [and that sob player will never have to play against a shoty lists like razors spams or IG or SW] .
> 
> The WD dex aint bad [unless someone liked to use inq stuff or assasins or was very lucky with faith] , but 35 pts rhinos do not make an army viable when it becomes random . GK with their psychic powers are awesome , very hard to play against with armies without psychic defense . But GK without those psychic powers are good too . Sob be it with the dex we have now or the WD dex cant play without faith . And faith IMO is too random in the WD dex . 50/50 chance to get a power off is not good.


14/06/2011
Some more rumours popped up today, basically the same as from BoK but a bit clearer and making a bit more sense in regards to 10unit sisters getting Repressors and not Immolators. I really hope Repressors are in as it's one of the cooler vehicles in the game and I've bought 10 Shadowswords and baneblades to convert into Repressors.
Source


Jared van Kell said:


> Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.
> 
> Basic Composition
> 
> The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
> Assasins are gone.
> All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
> Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.
> 
> Acts of Faith
> 
> Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
> Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
> Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
> Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.
> 
> Units
> 
> Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.
> 
> Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.
> 
> St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.
> 
> Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.
> 
> Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
> Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.
> 
> Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
> may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.
> 
> Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.
> 
> Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.
> 
> *JvK B)*


13/06/2011
Some really good rumours have surfaced, from Blood of Kittens.....yeah, I'm as surprised as you are?! If he keeps this up it might be worth paying more attention to him. Anyway, the rumours are pretty interesting and allot of things are what you could expect for a 5E update (thought they should be valid for 6E?). Some changes I'm not too happy about like the AoF being unit specific it was expected after the way GKs have unit specific powers. Question is what units get what AoF? Divine Guidance for Retributors would be the obvious conclusion but it might have been changed to something else.



TastyTaste said:


> As always let us start with the easy ones that pretty much everyone figured was going to happen.
> 
> Allies gone
> Inquisition gone
> Faith streamlined
> USRs updated to 5th
> Cheaper Unit costs
> Inquisition elements gone
> 
> So let start with the big one and perhaps most controversial change to Sisters of Battle: Faith
> 
> I am amazed reading around the Net how quite few people had great guesses on how the new faith works. One caveat about the faith rules: I only have most of the story so let us hope someone else can pluck the rest from the aether. The only thing that really stays the same is only faith producing units can use faith. Gone is the over and under rules based on model count and gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.
> 
> So for instance Repentia Act of Faith allows them to always land an attack even if they are killed before they can swing. They are little bonuses like re-rolling to wound and hit, no USRs. Now this if fine and dandy if you just pop a faith point and bam! power goes off, but not so fast. Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate . This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?
> 
> Random tidbits
> 
> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
> Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
> Karamazov gone
> Priests in, pretty much same as before.
> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters
> 
> Specifics
> 
> Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special Characters
> 
> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.
> 
> Confessor: Takes the slot of the old Inquisitors. Cheap HQ (Warboss). Can create a henchman band using most of the henchman found in the GK codex. What makes the Confessor extra deadly is the ability for it to re-roll hits and wounds for her and the squad. This is the translation of the rumor matrix. So think for one second about her and the Death Cult together?
> 
> Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports
> 
> Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.
> 
> Exocists: Pretty much same as before.
> 
> This is it for now gents and dames. If you have any questions let me know I can see if can get them answered sometime this week with another post.


11/06/2011
So it's fairly safe to say the Sisters will be getting a WD update in August-September, I can't say I'm happy about it and I remain VERY sceptical to the quality of it. If it follows GWs previous routines the only thing they will do is remove the allies rule, Inquisition, IST and Kramazov whilst not updating any points costs or adding anything new. Most likely not releasing any models or anything like that either, not even some Failcast models...
Good news is that they are calling it Codex: Sisters of Battle









Here are some more rumours.

Source
We are all shocked by the Sisters of Battle coming out as a White Dwarf release, but perhaps there is something in the future besides a pdf release. There is a lot of talk about how bad this will be and how GW promised they would never do another White Dwarf (pdf) codex. But, here we are......

Of course this also sounds like a little bit of wish listing, but perhaps there is some truth to it. We did hear originally that Sisters of Battle will be getting a codex in November, so could this just be a prelude?

These are more speculation than rumor. So please take these as possibilities, not rumors.



> via Polaria
> WD Codex will come out at the same time with 1 or 2 plastic sets and some finecast stuff. The WD codex will not, however, 'push' back, 'delay' or 'be the death of' Sisters of Battle as a line. A full Codex and the full-size release will come out in 2012. Think of this as prelude wave. Or a sneak peek.


there was the mysterious comment by Stickmonkey saying "Sisters love their rides", which some people interpreted as Sisters of Battle bikers and others as something totally different... (repressors)

25/05/2011
Some more release date rumours have surfaced, it's been a pretty dry period these past few weeks but we should start seeing more rumours in the coming months.
With some luck we should see Sisters this year and if they indeed are in Nov that means they should be up on preview at Games Day UK!! Well the Dark Eldar were and they were Nov release last year. Really looking forwards to Games Day UK now 


ghost21 said:


> necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens


Voss then posted his estimated release schedule


Voss said:


> Just to rehash-
> May - TK / various business announcements
> June - DE (pain engines, scourges) & Razorwing, wracks, grotesques & apparently some tomb kings (this is my understanding anyway)
> July - Storm of magic. Unspecified releases beyond 'spell monsters'
> August- possibly Necrons
> September- possibly Ogres?
> Oct- maybe Sisters?
> Nov- something fantasy?
> Dec- usually holiday things
> 
> alternating releases makes more sense to me than September and october both being fantasy to allow for August Necrons and November Sisters.
> Who knows, maybe october involves some LotR shenanigans or something...


To which BramGaunt posted


BramGaunt said:


> September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
> Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
> Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)


Harry then posted this in response to Nid 2nd wave


Harry said:


> I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
> I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.


DD/MM/YYYY
25/05/2011
Some more release date rumours have surfaced, it's been a pretty dry period these past few weeks but we should start seeing more rumours in the coming months.
With some luck we should see Sisters this year and if they indeed are in Nov that means they should be up on preview at Games Day UK!! Well the Dark Eldar were and they were Nov release last year. Really looking forwards to Games Day UK now 


ghost21 said:


> necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens


Voss then posted his estimated release schedule


Voss said:


> Just to rehash-
> May - TK / various business announcements
> June - DE (pain engines, scourges) & Razorwing, wracks, grotesques & apparently some tomb kings (this is my understanding anyway)
> July - Storm of magic. Unspecified releases beyond 'spell monsters'
> August- possibly Necrons
> September- possibly Ogres?
> Oct- maybe Sisters?
> Nov- something fantasy?
> Dec- usually holiday things
> 
> alternating releases makes more sense to me than September and october both being fantasy to allow for August Necrons and November Sisters.
> Who knows, maybe october involves some LotR shenanigans or something...


To which BramGaunt posted


BramGaunt said:


> September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
> Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
> Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)


Harry then posted this in response to Nid 2nd wave


Harry said:


> I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
> I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
29/09/2011
Some Games Day information here, it confirms what I was told at Games Day as well. We are in for a long wait it seems. This thread is now pretty much officially dead
Source


kitch102 said:


> - Necrons are not far off, though no specific launch date stated, no information on models etc. Some of what was said in the seminar hinted at a launch style similar to that of the DE (wave 1, wave 1.5 mini release, wave 2, followed by fillers etc). One interesting point was as soon as you could finish saying "Nec..." the staff shut up like a threatened murder witness. Could this mean that something is nearing fruition? Pure speculation on my part, but there was a MASSIVE lack of necron items aside from those brought by the staffs gaming tables, that would say to me that they're getting ready for an announcement. I quizzed one of the 'eavy metal guys on why the 'cron 'dex was no longer on the site and was given the "we're working on many..." lines (again), I think you 'cron players will be happy very soon but have no facts to back this up, just my gut feeling.
> 
> - The SoB WD codex was released purely as a stop gap to bring them in line with the grey knights release, they haven't neglected you SoB players and wanted to give you something as quickly as they could that was playable and relevant to the current game.


02/09/2011
This thread might not be dead just yet. Some rumours popped up today, Seraphim box we already knew about, the Repressor recut is perhaps no confirmed but the Battle Sisters getting their own boxed set is new. I really hope this is true, it wont make the army any better but it would be a tiny speck of hope in a giant black hole of depression.
Source


> Alright guys many of you who always wanted to have a sister army but just never got around to it because of the metal minis are in for a break. 40k Nation has many friends on the inside and we are coming to you with a confirmation on leaked info for the new Sister of Battle Box Sets.
> 
> Thats right you heard it hear first at 40k Nation if you do talk about it make sure to shout out that the inside scoop was from 40k Nation, a general new Sisters of Battle Box set confirmation, and a Sisters of Battle Seraphims Box Set Confirmation. Plastic Kits not Finecast.
> 
> There are a couple rumors we couldnt get confirmations on though from our friends inside and one is that GW has done a quick rip job of the forgeworld repressor kit to make there own for a box set.


24/08/2011
So lets do a round up shall we.

Blessed Banner: 12" re-roll morale and pinning, as long as bearer is alive Command Squad counts as scoring 1 extra wound in cc for assault results.

Chirurgeon's Tools: Feel No Pain to the unit.

Condemnor Boltgun: Combi-stake crossbow. 24" S5 AP- Assault 1, Psi-shock
Psi-shock: Any psyker that takes an UNSAVED wound suffer Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

Laud Hailer: 12" bubble, any successful AoF, Roll a D6 and if result a 6 you gain 1 Faith Point.

Neural Whip: Power weapon, vs non vehicles count as S8 and roll to wound against the opponents unmodified LD instead of T.

Simulacrum Imperialis: Unit re-rolls failed AoF tests.

Vehicles
Immolator
Inferno Bolts: Re-rolls to wound


Wargear options, items listed after each other cost the same.

HQ
Canoness
Replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltun, plasma pistol or inferno pistol
Eviscerator
May take Rosarius
May take Melta bombs

For every Canoness you may take 1 Sororitas Command Squad, does not count as HQ
Only 5 member, 3 Celestians, 1 Hospitaller and 1 Dialogus
One Celestian may take either:
Simulacrum Imperials
Blessed Banner
Any Celestian may replace her boltgun with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
Can take Rhino or Immolator

Ecclesiarchy Confessor
May Replace laspistol and/or chainsword with:
Shotgun, bolt pistol or boltgun
Stormbolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Eviscerator
May take plasma gun
May take melta bombs

For every Confessor, Confessor Kyrinov or Uriah Jacobus you may include 1 Battle Conclave.
3-10 models in any combination, does not count as HQ
Same costs are GK ones
Can take Immolator or Rhino

Elite
Ecclesiarchy Preacher
0-5 choice, does not use up FOC slot but are treated as Elite.
Each Preacher may replace laspistol and/or chainsword with:
Shotgun, bolt pistol or boltgun
Storm bolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Eviscerator
May take melta bombs

Celestian Squad
4 Celestians and 1 Superior, can include up to 5 additional Celestians
One may replace boltgun with:
Stormbolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
One may replace her boltgun with:
Stormbolter
Flamer
Meltagun
One may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace her boltgun and/or boltpistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword, or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Sisters Repentia
4 Repentia and Mistress, may include up to 5 additional Repentia
Mistress may take melta bombs

Troops
Battle Sister Squad
9 Sisters and Superior, may include up to ten additional Sisters.
One Sister may replace her boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
One Sister may replace her boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Flamer
Melta
One Sister may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Fast Attack
Seraphim
4 Seraphim and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Seraphim
Up to 2 Seraphim may replace their bolt pistols with:
Two hand flamers
Two Inferno pistols
Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with:
Chainsword
Power sword
Eviscerator
Superior may replace her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Dominion Squad
4 Dominions and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Dominions
For every 5 models in the squad, up to two Dominions may replace their boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Flamer
Meltagun
One Dominion may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Heavy Support
Retributor Squad
4 Retributors and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Retributors
Up to 4 Retributors may replace their boltgun with:
Heavy bolter
Multi-melta
Heavy flamer
One Retributor may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Exorcist
Searchlight
Dozer blade
Storm bolter
Hunter-killer missile
Extra armour

Penitent Engine
Unit Composition 1 Penitent Engine
Options:
Include an additional two Penitent Engines

Now for some missing wargear choices.
Celestian Squad
Where is the option for every member to replace their boltgun with a chainsword? The only unit in the army where you would consider doing this and you can't do it. The Command Squad Celestians can so why not the regular ones? So what is the point of the Celestian squad? Why the hell do they cost 15pts each? Grey Hunters cost 15pt each and come with +1S +1T +1I the same amount of attacks base (they come with CCW and Bolt pistol) but Ld8 instead of Ld9.
So you are telling me +1Ld is worth the same as +1S +1T and +1I?
They also get their flamer for free and their meltagun costs 5pt while ours cost 10.

But Celestians may sometimes have +1S and Fearless and have a 6++ save!!
/facepalm, sit down and shut the fuck up you Spheeze Mehreene fanboy!

Blessed Ammo
Where has this gone? Why wasn't there any special ammo in our list?

Now for some "wtf?" wargear.
Any unit that can take either a multi-melta or a regular melta, they both cost 10pts. I guess for the Command Squad you'd always take Multi-meltas over meltas as your AoF gives Relentless.

Seraphim Squad
Two hand flamers cost 20pts per model
Two Inferno pistols cost 30pts per model

This looks expensive but the Seraphim pistol rule says they can fire both pistols separately. Does this mean you can fire each hand flamer and inferno pistol? The points cost would suggest this.

Now for the "Good" parts of the codex.
Saint Celestine
At 115pts she is a real bargain, probably one of the best SC for the points cost in the game. Is this another one of those Cruddace Valkyrie units?
As it's common for Cruddace to have low points costs (compared to other units in the same FOC slot) for new kits (Valk and Trygons) does this mean GW has an abundance of Saint Celestine models they want to get rid of? Most likely is the answer to this...

Now for "It could have been good but in the end fails to deliver"
Sororitas Command Squad
You can give each Celestian a special or heavy weapon and their act of faith gives Relentless amongst other things but in the end the unit will rarely be useful. Reason is there are no models in the unit you want to assign wounds to. If you give the Celestians heavy weapons and put them in terrain the Hospitaller or Dialogus will be the first to die, if you dont give them special weapons the Celestians will be the first to die. For the bonuses they provide the unit is rather useless for combat, the turn you get shot at is the turn you will lose this unit. If anything you would put them in a transport and keep them close for the Laud Hailer bonus or a Banner bonus but other than this the unit is pretty bad. Perhaps 1 meltagun so you can use the vehicles firing port.

Penitent Engine
At 85pts each they are way to expensive, they will never make it into combat because they are too easy to destroy and Rage makes them predictable. At 50pt I would have considered them because they have less survivability than a killa-kan.

Unit Composition says 1 Penitent Engine, options say: Include an additional two Penitent Engines
It does not say anywhere that the PE are in a squadron like it did in the old codex, does this mean that each PE is independent of the others? This would have been a huge boost to them but they will still never make it into combat.


Conclusion
This codex is rushed, it lacks in pretty much every department. Heck even the WD itself seems rushed with spelling errors and other mistakes in almost every unit entry. This seems like something the WD team was told to throw together the day before the issue was to be sent to the printers. It doesn't explain the spelling errors in the 2nd part though.

All in all the codex is shit, you may try to convince me otherwise but unless the FAQ makes some huge changes, as in a complete rewrite of the codex I see no hope for it. The army lacks variety, every single Sister entry is copy paste of the last with a slight change. Units and wargear is too expensive to be useful, most of the AoF are useless and doesn't scale with the size of your army. Allot of choices seems to point towards a close combat army but you NEVER EVER want to end up in CC with your Sisters. I get the impression that Cruddace thought he was writing rules for a Space Marine army and not units with human stats.

The first pieces of information from the Sep issue of WD have started to pop up. I REALLY hope some of these are not true, like more expensive Sisters? What the hell?
Source


Google Translate said:


> Good level of costs (seen on the WD), so I'll try to tell me the most without taking the wrath of the moderation
> 
> Overall the units are more expensive than before.
> 
> Units higher than before: Celeste, SOB base (which are the only choices of troops), Dominion, Retributors. Bcp not generally
> Cheaper units: repentias, Seraphines (but much cheaper pair of rather expensive especially gun melting than a gauntlet + energy)
> 
> The characters are Spé gifts for their stats and bonuses. None of them exceeded 120 points. And several are in - 100 points
> 
> Heavy weapons are much cheaper than before and including the MF, which sees more than its price divided by 2
> 
> That's basically, if there are questions that have more, I hear you


- Overall some units are costlier than before but not by that much (Regular Sisters, Celestian, Dominion, Retributor).
- Basic Sisters are the only troop choice. They start at 9 + Sister Superior and apparently no free special/heavy weapons based on number (unlike SM tactical).
- Some are less costly (Repentia, Seraph but pistols are costly, especially the melta ones cost more than a Fist)
- Special character are relatively cheap, nothing above 120 pts, multiple below 100.
- Heavy weapons cheaper than before (MM cost cut more than in half, dear god the time it required me to understand that MF = Multi Fuseur = Multi Melta in French).
- Penitent Engine is indeed HS, 0-3 per slot

Found this:


> Basic sister is 12 points.
> Full squad of 10 starts at 125 points.


12pt for a Battle Sister? Wtf? This can't be true can it? For the overall nerfs I was expecting them to be 8pt or 10pt max but going up in cost? Why? Because of the frag, krak and bolt pistol? Wargear you hope you never ever have to use because if you have to you are dead anyways?!

Source


> Some little point teasers from the Sisters Second White Dwarf.
> Regular Sisters 12 pts each
> Cannoness 75 pts base
> Coffessor 55pts base
> St. Celestine 175 pts
> Repentia 90 pts 4 + 1 Mistress
> Celestian & Sheraphim 15 pts each
> Retributer 85pts for max heavy bolters
> that is all I got for now. enjoy


Blessed ammo - does not exist in the White Dwarf Codex (WDC) Inferno bolts come as standard with immolator Twinlinked heavy bolter weapon choice and allow the heavy bolter to reroll wounds
Laud Hailer - When any sister of battle unit within 12 inches of the laud hailer successfully get off an act of faith you roll a d6, on a six you immediately get 1 additional faith point. As far as I can see laud hailers can only be taken by the Sororitas command squad Dialogus
Sarissas - no longer exists.

There are only 18 pieces of gear total for the army - this includes Dozer Blade, EA, Hunter killer missile, Storm bolter and Search light upgrades for vehicles. 

Question - whether there are special units that give an additional Troops option (similar to Dante et al),

Answer - No there are not. You do need to a generic confessor or Kyrinov or Uriah to unlock Battle conclave, but there is no unit or character that allows the unlocking or recatergorising of other units.

On a side note Battle conclaives are unit size 3-10 all members cost the same amount as each other (think old school dominion melta gun) and the Arco flagilent got a strenght bost to 5 ( thats from last month when he was only strength 4.

Sororitas Command Squads are maximum size 5

The Simulacrum Imperialis, alows you to reroll failed act of faith tests 

09/08/2011
GW removed the Witchhunters section from their online store today and updated it. Same old metal minis but at least we didn't get finecast, my wallet couldn't handle that.
Here is the complete products list for the "new" Sisters of Battle. If this will be the final layout for the Sisters remains to be seen but this is what we've got so far.

Sisters of Battle Product List

HQ
Saint Celestine
Arch-confessor Kyrinov
Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith
Sisters of Battle Canoness
Sisters of Battle Dialogus
Sisters of Battle Hospitaller
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Blessed Banner
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Crusader 1
Crusader 2
Death Cult Assassins
Arco-Flagellants

Elites
Sisters of Battle Sisters Repentia
Sisters of Battle Mistress of Repentance
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Preacher with Chainsword
Preacher with Laspistol
Preacher with Sword
Missionary with Chainsword
Missionary with Plasma Gun

Troops
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2

Dedicated Transports
Space Marine Rhino
Sisters of Battle Immolator

Fast Attack
Sisters of Battle Seraphim Superior with Power Sword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim 1
Sisters of Battle Seraphim 2
Sisters of Battle Seraphim with Hand Flamers
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2

Heavy Support
Sisters of Battle Exorcist
Sisters of Battle Penitent Engine
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter

Bitz
Sister of Battle Shrine

05/08/2011
Saw this over at Dakka just moments ago. I've marked the interesting ones in red.
Are we looking at getting "Finecast" or just restocked metals?
Source


skrulnik said:


> Just got this email today. An order I placed last week is just being filled.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> We are currently packing the order you placed with Games Workshop. However; one or more of the item(s) you ordered are currently out of stock and will be on the list that follows. This is a list of all items on back order and when they are due to arrive into our warehouse.
> 
> Please note that not all of these items are on your order. This list is provided to you, for your convenience, incase you wanted to place an order for other items that may be out of stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 99060103129 Ork Boss Snikrot 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99060110022 Necron Lord and Resurrection Orb 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99060204060 Wood Elf Waywatchers 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99060213013 Ogre Kingdoms Female Maneater 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110102065 Chaos Space Marines Emperor's Children N 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110104102 Eldar Howling Banshees Aspect Warrior Squad 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110104103 Eldar Swooping Hawks Aspect Warrior Squad 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110205112 Dwarf Grudge Thrower 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110212075 Witch Elves 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99110999001 Blood Bowl: The Galadrieth Gladiators 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99800107002 Lord Kaldor Draigo 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99060106062 Tyranid Venomthrope 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99061463029 Elf Command 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99110102003 Chaos Space Marine Dreadnought 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99110205126 Dwarf Hammerers 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99110210124 High Elf Shadow Warriors 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99110213002 Ogre Kingdoms Tyrant 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99119915024 Plaguebearers of Nurgle 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99120213006 Ogre Kingdoms Battalion 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99140104089 Eldar Shining Spear Aspect Warriors 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99800299004 Dark Emissary 26-Aug-11
> 
> 99060202226 Pegasus 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99060203105 Unicorn 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99060207138 Vampire Counts Cairn Wraith 2 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99060208077 Lizardmen Skink Priest with Feathered Cl 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99060301026 Epic: Space Marine Drop Pod 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99140113005 Tau XV88 Broadside Battlesuit 02-Sep-11
> 
> 99060101396 Ultramarines Captain Sicarius 16-Sep-11
> 
> 99060104133 Eldar Swooping Hawks Apsect Warrior 16-Sep-11
> 
> 99110104096 Eldar Warp Spiders Aspect Warriors Squad 16-Sep-11
> 
> 99110104113 Eldar Harlequin Troupe 16-Sep-11
> 
> 99060108073 Witch Hunter Henchmen Dialogus 23-Sep-11
> 
> 99060108086 Sister Superior with Power Maul 23-Sep-11
> 
> 99060207032 Vampire Counts Black Knight 23-Sep-11
> 
> The item(s) have been cancelled off your order, and you will not be charged for them. Please reorder them at your convenience.
Click to expand...

28/07/2011
Dark Heresy has come out with a new supplement; Church of the Damned. The curious thing is the Penitent Engine design, is this what the new PE looks like or is it just artist interpretation?
Fantasy Flight games webstore link


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
27/07/2011
Some fluff has popped up. Finally some victories for the Sisters of Battle!
Source


Eumerin said:


> Melissia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.
> 
> - Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
> - A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
> - Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
> - Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
> - The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
> - Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.
> 
> 
> So...
> 
> One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.
> 
> Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.
Click to expand...

23/07/2011
Updated the Predictions section with all the WD information

Seems like someone has finally gotten their hands on this months WD, yet almost nothing new was posted? I'm personally very sceptical to this as 99% of it was posted elsewhere month(s) ago. Until we get confirmation on these rumours I'm holding my breath as it seems like such a huge nerf to the army. 
Unless a Battle Sister now costs 8pts a pop the way the new Faith system is explained seems really useless, D6 FP per turn with a 5+ chance (somewhat modifiable) for success? If the Acts of Faith gave WS10 or BS10 with S10 Rending attacks I could believe it but with the ones rumoured it's seriously nothing you can rely on.
Are Battle Sisters really nothing more than WS3 T3 S3 I3 marines now? With a 2/6 chance to reroll 1s to hit (or wounds as author wasn't sure)? That's rather pathetic if you ask me.
Source


Drachnon said:


> So I bought the new White Dwarf today (not sure if its early over here) with the sisters of battle.
> After reading it once I gave it to a friend who actually plays sisters since he can't study it. Even so I think its time to discuss what we think so far.
> 
> My thoughts:
> The new faith system:
> All units and IC's only have 1 power and you roll a D6 to determine how much points you have each turn. I didn't see any mention of increasing the number of faith points per turn which means sisters will probably get less effective in bigger battles as you'll be starved for faith points even without a bad roll. (hopefully we'll see an answer to this with the next installment of the codex).
> To activate no more leadership test just a D6 with a couple of possible bonuses (like veteran sister as squad leader or having taken a casualty) and it works on 5+ which seems ok to me.
> The powers themselves all seem to be pretty good, nothing broken but I couldn't see any faith powers that seemed completely useless.
> 
> Armor of faith:
> Gives entire almost the army a 6+ inv save even vehicles. I can't think of any downsides to this and seems like a good thing to add a slight bit more survivability.
> 
> The units:
> The entire inquisition/IG part is now gone and the sisters look like they'll have to fend for themselves. I didn't see any new units so you won't have much choice when selecting units (I don't think there'll be more then 2 choices in any FOC section)
> Wargear options will be in the next white dwarf but from what I remember all sister squads except the sisters repentia now have frag and krak grenades.
> 
> So anyone else who has the new WD?





Drachnon said:


> thade said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to their "this unit's armor save is invulnerable for the turn" power? Did that get axed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before all units have only one power each, I haven't memorized them all but I don't think any made their armour invunerable. Keep in mind that now all sisters have a 6+ inv save all the time.
> 
> These are the ones I do remember (though I might be wrong on some points):
> Canonness: +1 initiative and fearless
> Sister battle squad: used in shooting or assault - Reroll 1's to wound (or maybe to hit)
> Sisters repentia: If a model is killed in close combat during higher initiative it can still attack back though with only 1 attack.
> Special weapon squad: Twin linked iirc
> I have no clue about the others.
> 
> I didn't see any new units (also no terminator armor) though I'm not sure about the special characters.
> 
> If the Blood Angel White Dwarf codex was any indication there isn't much hope for new stuff in the next white dwarf, only the points costs for the units given in this white dwarf.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Drachnon said:


> I already addressed that in my first post and yes you only have a D6 per turn the problem seems to be that its always a D6 regardless of the size of the army. So a 500 points army has the same D6 as a 2500 points army meaning there will be 500 points game where you roll 6 and have to much to spend and other time in 2500 points you roll 1 in the turn you really need it for multiple units.


28/06/2011
We are having another rumours drought in anticipation of people getting their hands on the next issue of WD. Here are some small tidbits though.


Captain Ventris said:


> Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
> Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested... Two waves of Necrons are supposed to be released the weekends of Nov. 12 and Dec. 3rd. What models will be in what release is still being discussed, obviously the codex is in the first wave, but he also mentioned that warriors were getting re-cut with the scarabs removed and options added in their place. Scarab swarms are apparently going to a multi-part finecast kit that is more dynamicly posed than just scarabs hovering in place (I'd already done something similar where my scarabs are actuallt bursting from the ground)
> 
> Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
> 
> Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.


15/06/2011
Another good post from BoK, some sad and good rumours.


> What is not in the Codex
> 
> Repressors
> Arbites
> 
> The Units (some more information than others)
> 
> Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.
> 
> Repentia: Forgot to mention they have fleet
> 
> Celastians: Cheaper than a Marine, but not really anything going for them (that I know of)… extra attack. Re-roll hits for act of faith
> 
> Sister Battle Squad: Can still get a Heavy Flamer
> 
> Shraphim: They are pretty amazing. Cheaper than a Space Marine you get a Jump Packing, Hit and Running, and an act of faith that has them re-rolling wounds. You can also upgrade them to run with double hand flamers and melta pistols. They act both as an extra close combat weapon and become assault 2 instead of being twin-linked. So that means Assault 2 melta weapons.
> 
> Dominion Squads: Still get 4 special weapons. Act of Faith twin-linked.
> 
> Retributor Squads: Pretty fantastic. CHEAP! Talking under Long Fang cheap to fully kit out. Expect the return of the Heavy Bolter with these. Act of Faith is Rending.
> 
> Penitent Engines: Again fantastic. Same statline (Walker). No Scout or Infiltrate. Cheaper and can be a squadron aka 9 Engines. They still get the 1D6 attacks, but any wounds generate additional attacks (don’t know if they work like Blood Talons). 6+ Invul (don’t know if they generate faith)


This popped up today, it does make the WD update sound really bad. How much truth there is to this I do not know so all we can do is wait.
Source


-The Jeske (Bolter and Chainsword) said:


> because the rules suck for anyone that has seen them . +6inv is nothing when sobs are close range shoting list and cover everywhere is+4 and in hth they just die and double re-roll to celestines doesnt help here because you need to glue an HQ to them and they cost 16 pts each . which is not ok for a str 3 model , re-rolls or not .
> 
> the faith works too random too and for some units it doesnt make sense . dominions one buffs flamers , but why would you be runing them with flamers when what a sob list needs is anti tank [as sob dont have long range support units in other slots like sm have with dreads , speeders or attack bike]. the serafin one is nice because it works like the old one and with the twin linke re-rolls you ger more chance for rending , but they cost 22 pts and cant use it when you join a non seraf HQ with them [which means your runings a str 3 T 3 unit with 12" range without proper support] .
> there is just no unit synergy between the units . but worse are the "tac" sob who cares they get a a faith power for every occasion when A the chance to get it are avarge [50/50 stuff sucks] and the faith doesnt realy make them like tacticals . because tacticals are t4 str 4 with chapter tactics which buffs them [or they are GH/RAS for BA and we are talking about something cheaper and better at the same time].
> 
> the good change happened to repentia . I told it many times that just giving them FNP or lowering the points cost [unless it was to something like 8 pts each] would not be enough . GW did both making them , well not good , but at least they are not the worse unit in the game anymore . Would be nice sob players could get more units then one [2x12 would be not good but enough for those "fluffy"/fun lists . one unit of 16-18 still kind of a sucks] . the almost auto cast on power when misstress is alive is nice too .
> 
> I wish that exorcist were given GK fortiude because they are still the only viable hvy support [for all round lists of course. I can imagine someone wanting to piss off his green tide friend and playing a 3x4 hvy bolters +3ximolator with hvy bolter set up] .
> 
> lost of book is going to be huge for sob players . Sure one can take the saint ,the banner a unit of serafs or an all celestian army[which imo will suck] but thats 500pts+ for getting a 12" bubble of almost ATSKNF . well one just can hope the sob rhinos will die less or something [and that sob player will never have to play against a shoty lists like razors spams or IG or SW] .
> 
> The WD dex aint bad [unless someone liked to use inq stuff or assasins or was very lucky with faith] , but 35 pts rhinos do not make an army viable when it becomes random . GK with their psychic powers are awesome , very hard to play against with armies without psychic defense . But GK without those psychic powers are good too . Sob be it with the dex we have now or the WD dex cant play without faith . And faith IMO is too random in the WD dex . 50/50 chance to get a power off is not good.


14/06/2011
Some more rumours popped up today, basically the same as from BoK but a bit clearer and making a bit more sense in regards to 10unit sisters getting Repressors and not Immolators. I really hope Repressors are in as it's one of the cooler vehicles in the game and I've bought 10 Shadowswords and baneblades to convert into Repressors.
Source


Jared van Kell said:


> Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.
> 
> Basic Composition
> 
> The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
> Assasins are gone.
> All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
> Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.
> 
> Acts of Faith
> 
> Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
> Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
> Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
> Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.
> 
> Units
> 
> Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.
> 
> Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.
> 
> St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.
> 
> Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.
> 
> Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
> Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.
> 
> Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
> may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.
> 
> Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.
> 
> Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.
> 
> *JvK B)*


13/06/2011
Some really good rumours have surfaced, from Blood of Kittens.....yeah, I'm as surprised as you are?! If he keeps this up it might be worth paying more attention to him. Anyway, the rumours are pretty interesting and allot of things are what you could expect for a 5E update (thought they should be valid for 6E?). Some changes I'm not too happy about like the AoF being unit specific it was expected after the way GKs have unit specific powers. Question is what units get what AoF? Divine Guidance for Retributors would be the obvious conclusion but it might have been changed to something else.



TastyTaste said:


> As always let us start with the easy ones that pretty much everyone figured was going to happen.
> 
> Allies gone
> Inquisition gone
> Faith streamlined
> USRs updated to 5th
> Cheaper Unit costs
> Inquisition elements gone
> 
> So let start with the big one and perhaps most controversial change to Sisters of Battle: Faith
> 
> I am amazed reading around the Net how quite few people had great guesses on how the new faith works. One caveat about the faith rules: I only have most of the story so let us hope someone else can pluck the rest from the aether. The only thing that really stays the same is only faith producing units can use faith. Gone is the over and under rules based on model count and gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.
> 
> So for instance Repentia Act of Faith allows them to always land an attack even if they are killed before they can swing. They are little bonuses like re-rolling to wound and hit, no USRs. Now this if fine and dandy if you just pop a faith point and bam! power goes off, but not so fast. Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate . This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?
> 
> Random tidbits
> 
> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
> Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
> Karamazov gone
> Priests in, pretty much same as before.
> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters
> 
> Specifics
> 
> Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special Characters
> 
> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.
> 
> Confessor: Takes the slot of the old Inquisitors. Cheap HQ (Warboss). Can create a henchman band using most of the henchman found in the GK codex. What makes the Confessor extra deadly is the ability for it to re-roll hits and wounds for her and the squad. This is the translation of the rumor matrix. So think for one second about her and the Death Cult together?
> 
> Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports
> 
> Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.
> 
> Exocists: Pretty much same as before.
> 
> This is it for now gents and dames. If you have any questions let me know I can see if can get them answered sometime this week with another post.


11/06/2011
So it's fairly safe to say the Sisters will be getting a WD update in August-September, I can't say I'm happy about it and I remain VERY sceptical to the quality of it. If it follows GWs previous routines the only thing they will do is remove the allies rule, Inquisition, IST and Kramazov whilst not updating any points costs or adding anything new. Most likely not releasing any models or anything like that either, not even some Failcast models...
Good news is that they are calling it Codex: Sisters of Battle









Here are some more rumours.

Source
We are all shocked by the Sisters of Battle coming out as a White Dwarf release, but perhaps there is something in the future besides a pdf release. There is a lot of talk about how bad this will be and how GW promised they would never do another White Dwarf (pdf) codex. But, here we are......

Of course this also sounds like a little bit of wish listing, but perhaps there is some truth to it. We did hear originally that Sisters of Battle will be getting a codex in November, so could this just be a prelude?

These are more speculation than rumor. So please take these as possibilities, not rumors.



> via Polaria
> WD Codex will come out at the same time with 1 or 2 plastic sets and some finecast stuff. The WD codex will not, however, 'push' back, 'delay' or 'be the death of' Sisters of Battle as a line. A full Codex and the full-size release will come out in 2012. Think of this as prelude wave. Or a sneak peek.


there was the mysterious comment by Stickmonkey saying "Sisters love their rides", which some people interpreted as Sisters of Battle bikers and others as something totally different... (repressors)

25/05/2011
Some more release date rumours have surfaced, it's been a pretty dry period these past few weeks but we should start seeing more rumours in the coming months.
With some luck we should see Sisters this year and if they indeed are in Nov that means they should be up on preview at Games Day UK!! Well the Dark Eldar were and they were Nov release last year. Really looking forwards to Games Day UK now 


ghost21 said:


> necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens


Voss then posted his estimated release schedule


Voss said:


> Just to rehash-
> May - TK / various business announcements
> June - DE (pain engines, scourges) & Razorwing, wracks, grotesques & apparently some tomb kings (this is my understanding anyway)
> July - Storm of magic. Unspecified releases beyond 'spell monsters'
> August- possibly Necrons
> September- possibly Ogres?
> Oct- maybe Sisters?
> Nov- something fantasy?
> Dec- usually holiday things
> 
> alternating releases makes more sense to me than September and october both being fantasy to allow for August Necrons and November Sisters.
> Who knows, maybe october involves some LotR shenanigans or something...


To which BramGaunt posted


BramGaunt said:


> September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
> Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
> Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)


Harry then posted this in response to Nid 2nd wave


Harry said:


> I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
> I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.


DD/MM/YYYY
25/05/2011
Some more release date rumours have surfaced, it's been a pretty dry period these past few weeks but we should start seeing more rumours in the coming months.
With some luck we should see Sisters this year and if they indeed are in Nov that means they should be up on preview at Games Day UK!! Well the Dark Eldar were and they were Nov release last year. Really looking forwards to Games Day UK now 


ghost21 said:


> necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens


Voss then posted his estimated release schedule


Voss said:


> Just to rehash-
> May - TK / various business announcements
> June - DE (pain engines, scourges) & Razorwing, wracks, grotesques & apparently some tomb kings (this is my understanding anyway)
> July - Storm of magic. Unspecified releases beyond 'spell monsters'
> August- possibly Necrons
> September- possibly Ogres?
> Oct- maybe Sisters?
> Nov- something fantasy?
> Dec- usually holiday things
> 
> alternating releases makes more sense to me than September and october both being fantasy to allow for August Necrons and November Sisters.
> Who knows, maybe october involves some LotR shenanigans or something...


To which BramGaunt posted


BramGaunt said:


> September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
> Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
> Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)


Harry then posted this in response to Nid 2nd wave


Harry said:


> I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
> I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
15/05/2011
Some more Promethium to throw on the WD dex rumours and some interesting stuff from ghost21


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.
> (...)
> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.
> (...)
> well i did just play sisters yesterday and moped up at a tournment so they are still totally viable. granted it was only a 20 person tourny.
> 
> when 6ed comes out sisters will get a boost, but then all shooty armies will with what my source has said so far.
> 
> my source has never been wrong before so im going to trust him that the sisters are going to be getting a two part wd release, maybe in november but they are still in the rough stages of development.





ghost21 said:


> theres going to be a nother plastic set for sisters that wil contain lots of bling too, the two sets will have everything
> but there will be 1 set for normal sisters n seraphim


How many models on the other set?


ghost21 said:


> its about 10


Is that the Repentia or something new?


ghost21 said:


> its the repentia


12/05/2011
Some Sister Repentia rumours, does this mean they get covered up in nun clothes revealing none of their flesh? I hope not :crazy:


ghost21 said:


> repentia will get there own kit...
> 
> ...they look more like penitent nuns and less like mumy strippers


10/05/2011
A "confirmation" rumour has been posted by ghost21, 5 Sister boxes seems to be the way they will do them. Could it be Celestian/Seraphim box or is it really 1 box for all Sister variants? Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors all in 1 box? I hope not because that would mean a very bland and boring looking army unless there are tons upon tons of bits for variations.


ghost21 said:


> yeah sisters will be 5 to a box with options for seraphim though (i wished it wasnt true but unfortunatley ive seen the evedence)





ghost21 said:


> actually the plastic penitent engine looks basicaly like the current one


17/04/2011
Some rather curious rumours have popped up, take it for what it is. If Harry is right and it's Sisters next and BT after them then GW must be very desperate for another space marine seller. It would really suck imo if we got 3 power armour dexes after each other.
Source


Lord Castellan said:


> So what do we think the next codexes are going to be?
> 
> Necron of course, then Templar, obviously, but what else is coming down the pipes? 6th edition in a few years? Personally I dont think we need a new rulebook so soon but ive heard the rumor mill.
> 
> BT will be sooner. They already have models and artwork for the boxes and so forth. They will be before Sisters I can guarantee it.
> 
> Depends on where they get their sources. Seeing the models and artwork at the factory is pretty solid.
> 
> Indeed. Its just what I heard from someone, may not be true. We'll see


Harry in response to this


Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


05/04/2011
Small compilation of the most recent rumours regarding the Sisters of Battle

These two contradict each other, I'm sure something was said but people heard differently
Source


bloodaxegit said:


> I was at warhammer world for the schools league, and Wayde Price was giving us a talk about the new Grey Knights. In this, he mentioned other parts of the inquisition, including the sisters of battle; who he said will be updated later this year!





Shadow Marine said:


> Hi,
> I was at the Regional School League Finals yesterday at Warhammer World. I will were given a talk from the Communication Manager (Design Studio) couldn't remember his name.
> He was talking about Grey Knights, slightly off topic but he did say their vision of 40K is big armies. That is why they moved away from Inquistors and allies (they said that Inqusitors are to squishy to fight demons!)
> 
> He did say at the beginning of the talk that he wouldn't be talking about anything that is out in the future. He then said that Sisters of Battle is the other main ordos and these are out next year.
> 
> I hope this is new news!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> rob





Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


Instinct tells me that what Stickmonkey is describing is a concept-sculpt, not a master model, but it sounds pretty cool.



StraightSilver said:


> ((StraighSilver is reporting on a conversation he had with Jes Goodwin at the Dark Eldar Launch Party - Azezel))
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





Straightsilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Reserved......


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
15/05/2011
Some more Promethium to throw on the WD dex rumours and some interesting stuff from ghost21


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.
> (...)
> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.
> (...)
> well i did just play sisters yesterday and moped up at a tournment so they are still totally viable. granted it was only a 20 person tourny.
> 
> when 6ed comes out sisters will get a boost, but then all shooty armies will with what my source has said so far.
> 
> my source has never been wrong before so im going to trust him that the sisters are going to be getting a two part wd release, maybe in november but they are still in the rough stages of development.





ghost21 said:


> theres going to be a nother plastic set for sisters that wil contain lots of bling too, the two sets will have everything
> but there will be 1 set for normal sisters n seraphim


How many models on the other set?


ghost21 said:


> its about 10


Is that the Repentia or something new?


ghost21 said:


> its the repentia


12/05/2011
Some Sister Repentia rumours, does this mean they get covered up in nun clothes revealing none of their flesh? I hope not :crazy:


ghost21 said:


> repentia will get there own kit...
> 
> ...they look more like penitent nuns and less like mumy strippers


10/05/2011
A "confirmation" rumour has been posted by ghost21, 5 Sister boxes seems to be the way they will do them. Could it be Celestian/Seraphim box or is it really 1 box for all Sister variants? Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors all in 1 box? I hope not because that would mean a very bland and boring looking army unless there are tons upon tons of bits for variations.


ghost21 said:


> yeah sisters will be 5 to a box with options for seraphim though (i wished it wasnt true but unfortunatley ive seen the evedence)





ghost21 said:


> actually the plastic penitent engine looks basicaly like the current one


17/04/2011
Some rather curious rumours have popped up, take it for what it is. If Harry is right and it's Sisters next and BT after them then GW must be very desperate for another space marine seller. It would really suck imo if we got 3 power armour dexes after each other.
Source


Lord Castellan said:


> So what do we think the next codexes are going to be?
> 
> Necron of course, then Templar, obviously, but what else is coming down the pipes? 6th edition in a few years? Personally I dont think we need a new rulebook so soon but ive heard the rumor mill.
> 
> BT will be sooner. They already have models and artwork for the boxes and so forth. They will be before Sisters I can guarantee it.
> 
> Depends on where they get their sources. Seeing the models and artwork at the factory is pretty solid.
> 
> Indeed. Its just what I heard from someone, may not be true. We'll see


Harry in response to this


Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


05/04/2011
Small compilation of the most recent rumours regarding the Sisters of Battle

These two contradict each other, I'm sure something was said but people heard differently
Source


bloodaxegit said:


> I was at warhammer world for the schools league, and Wayde Price was giving us a talk about the new Grey Knights. In this, he mentioned other parts of the inquisition, including the sisters of battle; who he said will be updated later this year!





Shadow Marine said:


> Hi,
> I was at the Regional School League Finals yesterday at Warhammer World. I will were given a talk from the Communication Manager (Design Studio) couldn't remember his name.
> He was talking about Grey Knights, slightly off topic but he did say their vision of 40K is big armies. That is why they moved away from Inquistors and allies (they said that Inqusitors are to squishy to fight demons!)
> 
> He did say at the beginning of the talk that he wouldn't be talking about anything that is out in the future. He then said that Sisters of Battle is the other main ordos and these are out next year.
> 
> I hope this is new news!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> rob





Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


Instinct tells me that what Stickmonkey is describing is a concept-sculpt, not a master model, but it sounds pretty cool.



StraightSilver said:


> ((StraighSilver is reporting on a conversation he had with Jes Goodwin at the Dark Eldar Launch Party - Azezel))
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





Straightsilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
15/05/2011
Some more Promethium to throw on the WD dex rumours and some interesting stuff from ghost21


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.
> (...)
> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.
> (...)
> well i did just play sisters yesterday and moped up at a tournment so they are still totally viable. granted it was only a 20 person tourny.
> 
> when 6ed comes out sisters will get a boost, but then all shooty armies will with what my source has said so far.
> 
> my source has never been wrong before so im going to trust him that the sisters are going to be getting a two part wd release, maybe in november but they are still in the rough stages of development.





ghost21 said:


> theres going to be a nother plastic set for sisters that wil contain lots of bling too, the two sets will have everything
> but there will be 1 set for normal sisters n seraphim


How many models on the other set?


ghost21 said:


> its about 10


Is that the Repentia or something new?


ghost21 said:


> its the repentia


12/05/2011
Some Sister Repentia rumours, does this mean they get covered up in nun clothes revealing none of their flesh? I hope not :crazy:


ghost21 said:


> repentia will get there own kit...
> 
> ...they look more like penitent nuns and less like mumy strippers


10/05/2011
A "confirmation" rumour has been posted by ghost21, 5 Sister boxes seems to be the way they will do them. Could it be Celestian/Seraphim box or is it really 1 box for all Sister variants? Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors all in 1 box? I hope not because that would mean a very bland and boring looking army unless there are tons upon tons of bits for variations.


ghost21 said:


> yeah sisters will be 5 to a box with options for seraphim though (i wished it wasnt true but unfortunatley ive seen the evedence)





ghost21 said:


> actually the plastic penitent engine looks basicaly like the current one


17/04/2011
Some rather curious rumours have popped up, take it for what it is. If Harry is right and it's Sisters next and BT after them then GW must be very desperate for another space marine seller. It would really suck imo if we got 3 power armour dexes after each other.
Source


Lord Castellan said:


> So what do we think the next codexes are going to be?
> 
> Necron of course, then Templar, obviously, but what else is coming down the pipes? 6th edition in a few years? Personally I dont think we need a new rulebook so soon but ive heard the rumor mill.
> 
> BT will be sooner. They already have models and artwork for the boxes and so forth. They will be before Sisters I can guarantee it.
> 
> Depends on where they get their sources. Seeing the models and artwork at the factory is pretty solid.
> 
> Indeed. Its just what I heard from someone, may not be true. We'll see


Harry in response to this


Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


05/04/2011
Small compilation of the most recent rumours regarding the Sisters of Battle

These two contradict each other, I'm sure something was said but people heard differently
Source


bloodaxegit said:


> I was at warhammer world for the schools league, and Wayde Price was giving us a talk about the new Grey Knights. In this, he mentioned other parts of the inquisition, including the sisters of battle; who he said will be updated later this year!





Shadow Marine said:


> Hi,
> I was at the Regional School League Finals yesterday at Warhammer World. I will were given a talk from the Communication Manager (Design Studio) couldn't remember his name.
> He was talking about Grey Knights, slightly off topic but he did say their vision of 40K is big armies. That is why they moved away from Inquistors and allies (they said that Inqusitors are to squishy to fight demons!)
> 
> He did say at the beginning of the talk that he wouldn't be talking about anything that is out in the future. He then said that Sisters of Battle is the other main ordos and these are out next year.
> 
> I hope this is new news!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> rob





Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


Instinct tells me that what Stickmonkey is describing is a concept-sculpt, not a master model, but it sounds pretty cool.



StraightSilver said:


> ((StraighSilver is reporting on a conversation he had with Jes Goodwin at the Dark Eldar Launch Party - Azezel))
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





Straightsilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters of Battle
DD/MM/YYYY
15/05/2011
Some more Promethium to throw on the WD dex rumours and some interesting stuff from ghost21


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.
> (...)
> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.
> (...)
> well i did just play sisters yesterday and moped up at a tournment so they are still totally viable. granted it was only a 20 person tourny.
> 
> when 6ed comes out sisters will get a boost, but then all shooty armies will with what my source has said so far.
> 
> my source has never been wrong before so im going to trust him that the sisters are going to be getting a two part wd release, maybe in november but they are still in the rough stages of development.





ghost21 said:


> theres going to be a nother plastic set for sisters that wil contain lots of bling too, the two sets will have everything
> but there will be 1 set for normal sisters n seraphim


How many models on the other set?


ghost21 said:


> its about 10


Is that the Repentia or something new?


ghost21 said:


> its the repentia


12/05/2011
Some Sister Repentia rumours, does this mean they get covered up in nun clothes revealing none of their flesh? I hope not :crazy:


ghost21 said:


> repentia will get there own kit...
> 
> ...they look more like penitent nuns and less like mumy strippers


10/05/2011
A "confirmation" rumour has been posted by ghost21, 5 Sister boxes seems to be the way they will do them. Could it be Celestian/Seraphim box or is it really 1 box for all Sister variants? Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors all in 1 box? I hope not because that would mean a very bland and boring looking army unless there are tons upon tons of bits for variations.


ghost21 said:


> yeah sisters will be 5 to a box with options for seraphim though (i wished it wasnt true but unfortunatley ive seen the evedence)





ghost21 said:


> actually the plastic penitent engine looks basicaly like the current one


17/04/2011
Some rather curious rumours have popped up, take it for what it is. If Harry is right and it's Sisters next and BT after them then GW must be very desperate for another space marine seller. It would really suck imo if we got 3 power armour dexes after each other.
Source


Lord Castellan said:


> So what do we think the next codexes are going to be?
> 
> Necron of course, then Templar, obviously, but what else is coming down the pipes? 6th edition in a few years? Personally I dont think we need a new rulebook so soon but ive heard the rumor mill.
> 
> BT will be sooner. They already have models and artwork for the boxes and so forth. They will be before Sisters I can guarantee it.
> 
> Depends on where they get their sources. Seeing the models and artwork at the factory is pretty solid.
> 
> Indeed. Its just what I heard from someone, may not be true. We'll see


Harry in response to this


Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


05/04/2011
Small compilation of the most recent rumours regarding the Sisters of Battle

These two contradict each other, I'm sure something was said but people heard differently
Source


bloodaxegit said:


> I was at warhammer world for the schools league, and Wayde Price was giving us a talk about the new Grey Knights. In this, he mentioned other parts of the inquisition, including the sisters of battle; who he said will be updated later this year!





Shadow Marine said:


> Hi,
> I was at the Regional School League Finals yesterday at Warhammer World. I will were given a talk from the Communication Manager (Design Studio) couldn't remember his name.
> He was talking about Grey Knights, slightly off topic but he did say their vision of 40K is big armies. That is why they moved away from Inquistors and allies (they said that Inqusitors are to squishy to fight demons!)
> 
> He did say at the beginning of the talk that he wouldn't be talking about anything that is out in the future. He then said that Sisters of Battle is the other main ordos and these are out next year.
> 
> I hope this is new news!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> rob





Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


Instinct tells me that what Stickmonkey is describing is a concept-sculpt, not a master model, but it sounds pretty cool.



StraightSilver said:


> ((StraighSilver is reporting on a conversation he had with Jes Goodwin at the Dark Eldar Launch Party - Azezel))
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





Straightsilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Reserved......


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Disclaimer Section
Everything in this thread should be considered rumours and not hard facts. I'm a rumours compiler and will post everything of interest I find, if things does not turn out to be accurate dont bitch and whine about it. Enjoy your stay and try to stay on topic as much as possible.

Sections Explanations
Predictions section will be just that, my own personal predictions based on the rumours I have gathered.
The predictions calender should not be considered 100% accurate, it's based on conclusions I have drawn up from the rumours I have gathered.

None of the predicted army units should be take as 100% accurate, it's based on rumours posted by others.

I will also add names to the end of rumours so you know who they came from, once a new codex is released I will go through it and check of what was accurate and what was not. This way you will be able to see how reliable the different sources are. Please take into consideration that people like Stickmonkey see things VERY EARLY in development so some things are bound to change.


----------



## Azezel

I think multiple threads are the way to go, Old Man. Near the end there I did feel almost off-topic mentioning Sisters in the old thread.

Now - back on task. I think the following is well-worth reposting since it froms the most up-to-date information we have from actual GW folks.



Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


Instinct tells me that what Stickmonkey is describing is a concept-sculpt, not a master model, but it sounds pretty cool.



StraightSilver said:


> ((StraighSilver is reporting on a conversation he had with Jes Goodwin at the Dark Eldar Launch Party - Azezel))
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





Straightsilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


Hope you don't mind, MCC. Sexxy Camera is firmly filed under 'liar until proven otherwise'* so for me, these pieces are the main rumours we have to go on.


*If Sexxy Camera's current crop of rumours are proven true, I will hang on his or her every word from there on.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> *If Sexxy Camera's current crop of rumours are proven true, I will hang on his or her every word from there on.


This is how they all start 
Stickmonkey has received allot of flak for often being cryptic in his rumours but I enjoy all the rumours he brings us. Some might be wrong or inaccurate but he is right more often than not.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Hope you don't mind, MCC. Sexxy Camera is firmly filed under 'liar until proven otherwise'* so for me, these pieces are the main rumours we have to go on.


That sounds a bit strong azezal, 
how can someone be filed under 'liar until proven otherwise' until they have actually been proven one way or another?


----------



## hungryugolino

Says the unreliable banana...


----------



## Azezel

I'm well aware that all rumourmongers start out as unknown sources. Sexxy Camera's stuff looks unbelievable, so I don't believe it. If it is proven acurate (or mostly acurate) I will believe what he/she posts in the future.

If what Jes Goodwin said was accurate, it's very unlikely that there would finished kits around now. Just about possible, but not bloody likely. If there are finished kits around now, what're the odds that someone (in the US, even) has seen them and is posting detailed descriptions online? For someone to have seen the sprues (or CADs, or photoes etc) they'd have to work for GW, and it'd be fairly easy for GW to track a leak like that, so it's unlikely that anyone would leak on a whim.

Also, given that Sexxy Camera first appeared on the 'net posting these rumours on april first, that alone should set alarm bells rigning.

So yeah... I don't think Sexxy Camera is telling the truth. It simply seems much more likely that he or she is lying.


----------



## mahavira

A plastic priest kit similar to the Empire Wizards kit seems like a lot of work for, well, priests. Could the kits actually be inquisitor kits? A good chunk of the gear in the GK codex for inquisitors simply doesn't exist, and if the Inquisitorial content is about the same as in GK, such a kit for an HQ present in two armies is a lot more worthwhile than a kit for priests: sure the IG book has priests, the GK henchmen include vaguely priest-like models, but unless there is a huge rework of their role in SoB I just can't see selling enough priests to make a complicated kit like that worth the effort.


----------



## Tahiri

I certainly hope that we do not get anything in the way of priests or inquisitors as it is much more flavor full to play a full Sisters army and not be forced to include a random priest or inquisitor in order to take units

Hopefully with the inclusion of all the inquisitor units in the new GK codex, those well not be reprinted/repeated in the new Sisters codex.



Not sure if want to even bother putting up those "leaked" pages of the codex from a week or so ago, as our general consensus was that they are fake, but here is a link to a site with the summary.


----------



## Azezel

Whilst I would not use priests, they seem likely to be in the codex. Probably leading Frateris Militia mobs. Nevertheless, I agree that a plastic kit for such a model is highly unlikely.


----------



## Bindi Baji

hungryugolino said:


> Says the unreliable banana...


Hmm, good point, are bananas ever truly reliable though?


----------



## Winterous

Tahiri said:


> Not sure if want to even bother putting up those "leaked" pages of the codex from a week or so ago, as our general consensus was that they are fake, but here is a link to a site with the summary.


I don't think they're fake.
I wouldn't be surprised, but I think they look legit enough.

If it is a fake, it's a believable one.


----------



## Azezel

The person who faked them admitted it and posted the unaltered pictures.


----------



## elektra

Unfortunately if penitent engines and repentia are included in the codex and i hope they will then it is more then likely that a representative of the church will have to be included to use them under the current rules.However i think that a new minor SOB character/squad upgrade could be created that could unlock them without using non sororitas models and the said character/upgrade could be for the celestians as they are an elite unit and likely be able to call for these if the situation arises.Any thoughts?

Yes i meant arcos instead of repentia but got carried away.


----------



## mahavira

I think you're confusing repentia and acro-flagellants: repentia don't have a prerequesite. And I can't speak for anyone else, but cutting those idiotic requirements is at the top of my wish list. If nothing else, Adepta Sororitas ARE representatives of the Ecclesiarchy, and you'd think a canonness outranks the kinds of priests that were present in the 3E codex. If they keep even a hint of the old requirements, taking an HQ type priest might make acro-flagellants or penitent engines a different Force Allocation slot.


----------



## HellishRolls

I agree with mahavira, how is a canoness not 'pious' enough?!
I noticed from my friend's GK codex the other day that they get arcoflagellants... Makes me think that they will also be in the new sisters codex then and surely plastic models would follow in a 'kill two birds with one stone whilst maximising sales of over-expensive plastic' kind of mentality?


----------



## mahavira

Given that Acroflagellants were originally a SOB unit, it would be more surprising if they weren't in a SoB codex after having appeared in the GK one, particularly since they've gone to the effort to make them actually useful (and actually do what you tell them). Plastic...doubtful. In GK you can only have more than a few of them if you use a particular Special Character, and I doubt they'll be -that- much more common in SoB. Of course, buying a unit of up to 12 of them in blister packs is painful even so, so you may be right. The new rules for acro flagellants and death cult assassins add a lot more value to a SoB army than a GK army, so even if inquisitors are removed, both will be present in a SoB codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I believe the Sisters dex will have something similar to the Henchmen from the GK codex, Arco and Deathcult would be included and the rest would be Frateris Militia, Zealots, Adeptus Arbites etc.

When looking at the GK options you can basically just make a names change and they are Ecclesiarchy units.

Banisher = Priest
Crusader = Arbite with shock maul and storm shield
Warrior Acolyte = Adeptus Arbite or Priest

On top of this you could add Zealots, Frateris Militia, Cyber dogs and more.

Will probably be called Ecclesiarical Henchmen Warband :crazy:


----------



## crooner

I think they'll include the flagellants, if they're in GK they would have to be in with the sisters also. Most of the old ecclesiarchy stuff will probably manifest in one way or another in the new book.

What I'm most curious about though are retributors. Has anyone heard about a box set of those? Lately GW has been turning most things plastic, and if they can pump out brand new Dark Eldar goodies one would think they can at least do the same for sisters.


----------



## elektra

They could add heavy/special weapons to a basic sisters plastic box set along with everything else to make retributors,dominions,seraphim,celestians or battle sisters.What a kit that would be as long as you had 10 figures that you could build and not the rumoured 5.But GW being what they are will probably go for a battle sister/celestian box set,retributor/dominion box set and a seraphim boxset.I can also see sense in a plastic command kit like the current space marines and have a canoness,hospitaller,banner bearer,some sort of champion and the dreaded priest option,The banner bearer could have an option of holding several different molded banners taken from whatever orders are deemed the most appropriate by the designers.


----------



## elektra

MCC,how do you know faith will be drastically changed?


----------



## Azezel

Something I'd love to see is a plastic kit with the parts necessary to build either a Sororitas Heroine or a Living Saint.

It'd be much like the current Chaos Terminator Lord kit (which i beleive builds either one Lord or one Sorcerer in TDA).

Priced around £12-15 pounds, it'd have some funky artificer armour, probably two torsoes, some cloaks, robes and wings, maybe acouple of halo options, arms with guns, swords, books & scrolls etc and four or five different heads, at least one with sabbat-pattern helm.


I can't see it happening, but it'd be sensational.

I also cannot see a combined Retributor/Dominion kit. (and this assumes that dominions are in the new 'dex. They never sat right with me).

Such a kit would really have to include four Heavy Bolters, four Multimeltas, four Flamers, four Meltaguns and perhaps four Heavy Flamers (plus any other wepons options we may get). That's a staggering, (even unprecdented) number of weapons to appear in one kit. Hell, you'd need an entire sprue just for guns.

What seems more plausable is two kits, one for Retributors, one for Dominions. Each kit has one sprue with five Sisters on it (Likely the exact same sprue in the basic Sisters kit), and one sprue with eight weapons on it. And even that would be fairly novel.

That'd be a shame, since I like the current Heavy Weapon sisters with the more voluminous robes. It really does mark them out. I'd like all Retributors, even the ones with boltguns, to have such robes.

If Sisters nonmilitant are in the dex (and I think we all want them), then a blastic kit for them would be cool. Five women in carapace armour, along with a boatload of bitz to deck them out as either Hosptalier, Famulous, Dialogous, Sabine or Pronatus.

Hospitalier: Medicus Ministorum, bonesaw, syringe etc.
Famulous/Dialogous/Sabine: Scrolls & books, staff.
Pronatus: Funky reliquaries and archaotech weapons.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Azezel said:


> I also cannot see a combined Retributor/Dominion kit. (and this assumes that dominions are in the new 'dex. They never sat right with me).
> 
> Such a kit would really have to include four Heavy Bolters, four Multimeltas, four Flamers, four Meltaguns and perhaps four Heavy Flamers (plus any other wepons options we may get). That's a staggering, (even unprecdented) number of weapons to appear in one kit. Hell, you'd need an entire sprue just for guns.


I think they could get away with having a Adeptus Sororitas box that could be used as a Dominion box from the basic guys. Just need to find more special weapons. The retributors would require a whole kit, 2 weapons of each type is doable for a 5 man team. Buying 2 boxes and a Sisters box gets you two full retributor squads with 4 weapons per squad. Thats how I could see it. 

Its almost under the same principles as Marines are.


----------



## Tahiri

Azezel said:


> If Sisters nonmilitant are in the dex (and I think we all want them), then a blastic kit for them would be cool. Five women in carapace armour, along with a boatload of bitz to deck them out as either Hosptalier, Famulous, Dialogous, Sabine or Pronatus.
> 
> Hospitalier: Medicus Ministorum, bonesaw, syringe etc.
> Famulous/Dialogous/Sabine: Scrolls & books, staff.
> Pronatus: Funky reliquaries and archaotech weapons.


 
I am hoping to see the Hospitalier make it into the codex as I think it is one of the coolest models, they could easily be similar to Sanguinary Priests from the BA Codex, that could be elites choices or additions to standard sister squads to give them FNP, which would be a huge boost considering the sisters lack of toughness.

When I started Warhammer just back in February I do not recall the Sisters Hospitalier being a model that was on GW website. It, however, has reappeared on their site as a direct buy only.


----------



## Azezel

Tahiri said:


> When I started Warhammer just back in February I do not recall the Sisters Hospitalier being a model that was on GW website. It, however, has reappeared on their site as a direct buy only.


It used to be in the =][= retinue box. It's only now available in a blister. I'm tempted to buy one, but my finances are somewhat feeble right now. One of may favourite images in Blood of Martyrs is the portrait of the Hospitalier.


I'd like to see Sisters non-militant as an elite choice.

1-5 Sisters bought as a single FoC selection. Although bought as a single unit, each Sister must be attached to another squad. Unit made up of:
0-5 Sisters Hospitalier
0-5 Sisters Dialogus
0-5 Sisters Famulous 
0-5 sisters Sabine
0-5 Sisters Pronatus

Each Sister would grant a bonus to the unit she joins - I could also see five named sisters non-militant who grant that bonus and an aditional army-wide bonus.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tahiri said:


> When I started Warhammer just back in February I do not recall the Sisters Hospitalier being a model that was on GW website. It, however, has reappeared on their site as a direct buy only.


I have commented on this in the last thread, the interesting part is not that it's on direct only, the interesting part is that it's in the HQ section and not the elite.


----------



## crooner

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> I think they could get away with having a Adeptus Sororitas box that could be used as a Dominion box from the basic guys. Just need to find more special weapons. The retributors would require a whole kit, 2 weapons of each type is doable for a 5 man team. Buying 2 boxes and a Sisters box gets you two full retributor squads with 4 weapons per squad. Thats how I could see it.
> 
> Its almost under the same principles as Marines are.


Exactly what I was thinking. Why would they put everything in one box when they can put a few things in two boxes and make more money.


----------



## hungryugolino

I'd make a Dark Pact if it mean we get plastic stormtroopers.


----------



## Kettu

*@hungryugolino;*
I hope Stormies and Arbites are not included in any capacity. They are not Ecclesiarchy or Adepta Sororitas related and so have no business being in a Sister of Battle codex.
On the same lines, I hope the Inquisition is removed entirely from the codex and at most, goes back to being a one paragraph footnote. Ala, Codex Sisters of Battle 2nd ed 1998.

And just adding my 5c (2c is no longer in circulation in Australia) to the Ret/Dom box idea.
Why not just one kit, one squad box of ten which has one of each special and heavy weapon. There you go, you have now covered three different codex entries at the same time.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> The person who faked them admitted it and posted the unaltered pictures.


Aah there we go.


----------



## hungryugolino

Kettu: Quite frankly, I'd rather see Sisters go than a dedicated Inquisition codex. And don't tell me Ward's abortion covers it, because it most certainly does not.

Also, your idea is sound, efficient, and saves players money. That's why it'll never be done.


----------



## Kettu

Haven't seen this posted yet.

To quote the page;


> To start things off I have heard from an either very reliable or completely hokey source that we will be seeing BOTH Necrons and Sisters of Battle this year. This supposedly comes from the guy who leaked the Italian or French Dark Eldar Codex online. This fits in pretty well with what we predicted back in January.
> 
> Another Sisters rumor popped up over at Dakka -
> 
> Our GW store manager leaked a few things about what is being planned. Not what there will be.
> 
> Firstly there are plans for it to be in White Dwarf and Downloadable like the old BA PDF.
> 
> It will be Sisters of Battle, The Church/Ecclsiarchy and a large amount of Inquisition.
> 
> As with all new codexes there will be lots of new special characters.
> 
> Finally it will be between now and spring 2013.
> Not sure on this one. Seems a bit too vague for my likes. Maybe parts of it will turn out to be correct.


Well, this has all the makings of wishlist or as I like to call it, making shit up; GW employee, vague time frame, lack of details and no link to source provided but make do with it how you want.
I'm personally throwing it on the ignore pile.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I threw that one on the ignore pile as well when I saw it some week(s) ago. The between now and spring 2013 sealed it for me.
I wouldn't pay any attention at all to that rumour.


----------



## mahavira

Possible rules change to look out for: given how they seem to be trying to get most things to use universal special rules for streamlining, is there a chance that all immolators will be made fast, like a hellhound, rather than the existing rule allowing them to fire flamers (and only flamers) when they move at cruising speed?


----------



## rasolyo

mahavira said:


> Possible rules change to look out for: given how they seem to be trying to get most things to use universal special rules for streamlining, is there a chance that all immolators will be made fast, like a hellhound, rather than the existing rule allowing them to fire flamers (and only flamers) when they move at cruising speed?


I've been thinking about this as well, with the BA razorback in mind instead of the hellhound.

Since the BA razorback already is a cheaper, faster version of the immolator, maybe the next Immolator would have the option for a twin-linked flamestorm cannon? :wink: Or if they plan on making it _exactly_ like the BA razorback, to make it cost as much (10 points less).

One can only wish.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> *@hungryugolino;*
> I hope Stormies and Arbites are not included in any capacity. They are not Ecclesiarchy or Adepta Sororitas related and so have no business being in a Sister of Battle codex.
> On the same lines, I hope the Inquisition is removed entirely from the codex and at most, goes back to being a one paragraph footnote. Ala, Codex Sisters of Battle 2nd ed 1998.


I agree completely and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

rasolyo said:


> I've been thinking about this as well, with the BA razorback in mind instead of the hellhound.
> 
> Since the BA razorback already is a cheaper, faster version of the immolator, maybe the next Immolator would have the option for a twin-linked flamestorm cannon? :wink: Or if they plan on making it _exactly_ like the BA razorback, to make it cost as much (10 points less).
> 
> One can only wish.


I would like to see the Immolator with allot of new options.
Turret :
Twin-TL Heavy Flamers like it had in 2E (2 flame templates next to eachother)
TL Flamestom Cannon
Inferno Cannon
TL Heavy Bolter
TL Assault Cannons
TL Auto Cannons
TL Multi-Meltas

Sponson :
TL Heavy Flamers
Flamestorm Cannons
TL Heavy Bolter
TL Assault Cannons
TL Auto Cannons
TL Multi-Meltas

With these options it could be configured for pretty much any job. This would be the Heavy Support Immolator and not the Transport one.
Purification Pattern Immolator or something like that.
Together with Blessed ammo it would be pretty fierce.
If it had 3 flame based weapons it would explode on a Wrecked Roll on the damage table, if a Destroyed Explode result was rolled it would automatically cause a 6" blast around it at S5.

Then again this is just me wishlisting.


----------



## SilverTabby

_Note: These are observations based on common sense and an understanding of how the Studio works rather than anything I've actually heard concerning the SoB. _

Weapons for Sisters: It's unlikely you'll see anything but the 'Holy Trinity' of weapons they use - flame, melta and bolter. It's a fairly big part of their mythos, and has been from their very first appearance. However, there is room for expansion within those three, like adding in 'Inferno'-style weapons, etc. 

Book: I think the most likely scenario will be that we see a "Sisters of Battle" Codex rather than Witch Hunters, with the Inquisition as a side-option, much like in the new Grey Knights Codex. It's easier to promote and push an army, rather than a faction with an army inside it. I doubt the Hencemen rule (aka GK) will be in there, but maybe an equivalent with Frateris Militia or something akin to that. The options will be more Hereticus-oriented than the GK-Malleus slant, so expect more religious loons than Jokaero/daemonhost types.

As for Faith: It is more than likely it will be changed so each option grants a Universal Special Rule of some kind, rather than each one being a seperate effect (like the Dark Eldar Pain Tokens which grant USRs). So you could choose to get Fearless, or Rending, or Power weapons, etc. This fits with how GW have been angling to keep special rules simpler by referring to the Rulebook where possible. 
Of course, that said, the GK book has each unit with a host of unique and awkward rules which will have your codex thumbed to death within a week, but hopefully (if the same chap who was originally down to write it is) that won't be the case with SoB.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> It used to be in the =][= retinue box. It's only now available in a blister. I'm tempted to buy one, but my finances are somewhat feeble right now. One of may favourite images in Blood of Martyrs is the portrait of the Hospitalier.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see Sisters non-militant as an elite choice.
> 
> 1-5 Sisters bought as a single FoC selection. Although bought as a single unit, each Sister must be attached to another squad. Unit made up of:
> 0-5 Sisters Hospitalier
> 0-5 Sisters Dialogus
> 0-5 Sisters Famulous
> 0-5 sisters Sabine
> 0-5 Sisters Pronatus
> 
> Each Sister would grant a bonus to the unit she joins - I could also see five named sisters non-militant who grant that bonus and an aditional army-wide bonus.





MadCowCrazy said:


> I would like to see the Immolator with allot of new options.
> Turret :
> Twin-TL Heavy Flamers like it had in 2E (2 flame templates next to eachother)
> TL Flamestom Cannon
> Inferno Cannon
> TL Heavy Bolter
> TL Assault Cannons
> TL Auto Cannons
> TL Multi-Meltas
> 
> Sponson :
> TL Heavy Flamers
> Flamestorm Cannons
> TL Heavy Bolter
> TL Assault Cannons
> TL Auto Cannons
> TL Multi-Meltas
> 
> With these options it could be configured for pretty much any job. This would be the Heavy Support Immolator and not the Transport one.
> Purification Pattern Immolator or something like that.
> Together with Blessed ammo it would be pretty fierce.
> If it had 3 flame based weapons it would explode on a Wrecked Roll on the damage table, if a Destroyed Explode result was rolled it would automatically cause a 6" blast around it at S5.
> 
> Then again this is just me wishlisting.


These ideas are good, do you mind if I use them in my homebrew codex?


----------



## Azezel

Feel free.


----------



## Grogbart

One thing I hope will change about Acts of Faith, are the Tests of Faith with their model-count dependencies. 
Or is everybody else happy with your Canoness having less chance of performing Acts of Faith than a basic squad of Battle Sisters under certain circumstances (Squads of 11+ Sisters or 1-3 leftover Sisters)?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> One thing I hope will change about Acts of Faith, are the Tests of Faith with their model-count dependencies.
> Or is everybody else happy with your Canoness having less chance of performing Acts of Faith than a basic squad of Battle Sisters under certain circumstances (Squads of 11+ Sisters or 1-3 leftover Sisters)?


Im hoping you will be able to string AoF together, say you want to get both +2S and +2I. You would have to spend 2 Faith Points and for every act past the first you get -1Ld with a Faith Test being based on your Ld stat.

So if you want +2S, +2I and Inv save on a Canoness it would cost you 3 FP and you would have to do the test at Ld8.


----------



## Azezel

You can string most Acts of Faith together, MCC, it's just those two which are mutually exclusive.



Grogbart said:


> One thing I hope will change about Acts of Faith, are the Tests of Faith with their model-count dependencies.
> Or is everybody else happy with your Canoness having less chance of performing Acts of Faith than a basic squad of Battle Sisters under certain circumstances (Squads of 11+ Sisters or 1-3 leftover Sisters)?


I'm happy with how Faith works right now, though I'd be equally happy if the test were made a flat Leadership test for all Acts, and Acts like Divine Guidance gave us Rending, rather than the bastard-son-of-Rending we have now.

I'd like to see some aditional acts too. An act that lets us reroll failed saves, and another that makes the bad guys reroll successful saves would be very nice.

Like everyone else, 90% of my games are against one colour of Space Marine or another, and in those games, Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr are all I need or use - but when fighting, say, Eldar - current Acts of Faith are much less useful and I normally have a lot of points left at the end, not because I did not need them, but because I had nothing useful to spend them on.

I cannot think of a single enemy where the ability to reroll/force reroll of saves would not be useful.


EDIT - what if The Passion and Hand of the Emperor were both removed, and replaced by a single act which gave the unit +2 to any one characteristic for the phase?

There've certainly been times when my initiative or strength have seemed less important than sheer number of attacks, or especially Balistic skill. Imagine a Dominion squad with four BS6 meltaguns!


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> You can string most Acts of Faith together, MCC, it's just those two which are mutually exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm happy with how Faith works right now, though I'd be equally happy if the test were made a flat Leadership test for all Acts, and Acts like Divine Guidance gave us Rending, rather than the bastard-son-of-Rending we have now.
> 
> I'd like to see some aditional acts too. An act that lets us reroll failed saves, and another that makes the bad guys reroll successful saves would be very nice.
> 
> Like everyone else, 90% of my games are against one colour of Space Marine or another, and in those games, Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr are all I need or use - but when fighting, say, Eldar - current Acts of Faith are much less useful and I normally have a lot of points left at the end, not because I did not need them, but because I had nothing useful to spend them on.
> 
> I cannot think of a single enemy where the ability to reroll/force reroll of saves would not be useful.
> 
> 
> EDIT - what if The Passion and Hand of the Emperor were both removed, and replaced by a single act which gave the unit +2 to any one characteristic for the phase?
> 
> There've certainly been times when my initiative or strength have seemed less important than sheer number of attacks, or especially Balistic skill. Imagine a Dominion squad with four BS6 meltaguns!


*keeps writing down the good ideas*
That could make seraphim's brutal in close combat. Cause on the charge they would get 5 attacks each and if there is a Canoness she would 6 or 7 attacks.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> You can string most Acts of Faith together, MCC, it's just those two which are mutually exclusive.


I know but there are restrictions, like the ones I mentioned with +2S and +2I, you can't use both of them currently.


----------



## Grogbart

Am I just being overmodest, or are you going overboard?
I would be happy if the blessed ammunition vehicle upgrade would be avaliable as an Act of Faith!
But I guess I have to think bigger next time...


----------



## Necrosis

Grogbart said:


> Am I just being overmodest, or are you going overboard?
> I would be happy if the blessed ammunition vehicle upgrade would be avaliable as an Act of Faith!
> But I guess I have to think bigger next time...


I think blessed ammunition should just be an upgrade that certain units can take, like retributors.


----------



## Azezel

Grogbart said:


> Am I just being overmodest, or are you going overboard?
> I would be happy if the blessed ammunition vehicle upgrade would be avaliable as an Act of Faith!
> But I guess I have to think bigger next time...


You are shooting a little low.

As you've likely noticed, a squad of Battle Sisters are very definately a shooty army. Specifically, a very short-range shooty army. We will typically get one good phase of shooting with any squad before being assaulted and killed. That's just how it is.

Acts of Faith should be the equalizer in that equation. Should alow us the chance to make that one round of shooting really count. Against Vanilla Marines it more-or-less is. If you'll indulge me...

Divine Guidance _sounds_ pretty brutal, but in practice, is really rather a small advantage. For example if you have ten Sisters all with boltguns in rapid-fire range Divine Guidence is worth an aditional 1.48 wounds Vs MEQ.

If we have a squad of ten Sisters Vs a squad of ten MEQ rapid-firing, the Sisters will eventually win. However, if the Sisters rapid-fire and then the marines chose to assault, the Marines will win, even with the losses taken from the Sisters' shooting.

If we have ten Space Marines with boltguns (170 points) Vs 15 Sisters (165 points) we should logically expect the two sides to have a damned-near equal chance of beating one another. And they do - but only if the Sisters have Divine Guidance, and get to shoot first.

The Sisters rapid-fire and, with Divine Guidance, kill six Marines. The Marines then choose to forego shooting and assault, killing two Sisters. The Sisters strike after and kill one Marine.

It carries on like that, the Marines always kill most than the Sisters, but the Sisters started out with more, and Divine Guidance thinned the Marines out enough to give the Sisters a literal fighting chance.

What we need is Acts of Faith that can even the odds against Orks, or Howling Banshees or, god help us, the Guard.

We currently have nothing in our armoury of Faith that will help against 50 lasguns. Nor can we hope to deal with the sheer number of attacks a proppa mob o' boyz can dish out.

Make no mistake, the Sisters of Battle live and die by Faith, and if you still have Faith Points left at the end of the game, because there was nothing useful to spend them on (and we've all been there) then that is a clear sign that we need aditional Acts of Faith. Q.E.D.


----------



## Grogbart

Don't tell me. It's not like I haven't experienced it over and over again! *sigh*
I'm just the cautious, hesitent type of guy, that's all.

By the way did you take the wound allocation dilemma into accout, when doing your math?
In a game I had last year a squad of mine had a 'shot' at a squad of five Termies: 15 shot bolter, one heavy flamer and a meltagun and of course Divine Guidance. Managed seven AP1 wounds (of which only two were saved by the 5+ inv), BUT since I also did nine normal wounds it was no miracle (9D6 without a 1)three Termies survived! I admit luck wasn't one my side on that one, but it still IS a problem when shooting small squads.


----------



## Azezel

My math was dealing with regular tac-Marines, single wound models all with the same save.

The example you describe is iffy, there should not have been any wound alocation shenanigans possible. I don't claim to know every Marine 'dex inside out, but aren't Obliterators and GK Paladins the only Terminators with two wounds?

Are you sure your oponant was being completely honest with you?

My advice? If you do run across multi-wouund terminators, avoid them until they leave cover, then hit 'em with the Exorcist. Instant death.


Ooh, just noticed your country flag - It's off topic, but I always thought the German name for the current codex was fantastic, Hexenjäger. Not sure why, the sound of the word apeals to me.

MCC, what are Witch Hunters called in your neck of the global woods?


----------



## SilverTabby

As something you get for free in addition to wargear, I'm happy with any bonus I get from Faith. However, I disagree that Canonesses find it harder to use Faith than anyone else. Independant characters test on their unmodified Ld, not squad size. With a Ld of 10, she'll pass a lot more often than any squad...
Not that my Canoness is ever on her own, that's just asking for trouble :wink:


----------



## Azezel

Actually, a Canonness has a 91.66% chance of succeeding on any Test of Faith, wheras asquad of 11 or more Sisters has a 97.22% chance of succeeding on any 'roll under' test. One sister on her own (after the rest of her squad has been killed) has a 97.23% chance of succeeding on any 'roll over' test.

Isn't math fun?

EDIT - if our new 'dex made all Test of Faith a straight Leadership roll, then most of the time that'd be the Sister Superior's leadership of 9, giving us a typical chance of 83.33%.

I suspect most of our armies are based around squads of ten Battle Sisters in Rhinos. Currently, such a squad has a 91.66% chance of getting Divine guidance, and a 13.89% chance of getting spirit of the Martyr.

So, my Brothers and Sisters - would you like Tests of Faith to be a straight Leadership test if that meant less chance of Divine Guidance and others(83.33% compared to 91.66%) but more chance of Spirit of the Martyr and others (83.33% compared to 13.89%).

I grant that the difference in probability is much greater for Spirit of the Martyr, so it looks like the change would be a net 'profit' over all Acts of Faith, but which Acts are the mosre useful to you?


----------



## Grogbart

Uh, noo! Don't make me explain things in Englisch!!!

@Azezel

I was talking about a normal squad of basic Terminators (Strombolter/ Powerfist).
15 wounds (7 with 5+ inv and 9 with 2+ armour) on five models makes 3 for each, so:
Termies 1 & 2 get: 3x 5+ inv each
Termies 3 to 5 get: 3x 2+ armour each
At my store we roll multipe wounds for each model seperately, maybe that's the crutial point here. How do you deal ten armour saves on five models?

@SilverTabby

In general your right, I was just picking out the worst cases, but when comparing a Ld 10 leadership test to rolling equal to or under a squad size(e.g. Divine Guidance) of eleven Sisters, you have to admit the eleven sisters are better off. Not to mention rolling equal to or above squad size (e.g. Spirit of the Martyr) for a squad of two leftover Sisters!

grrr! I hate being slow!!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> MCC, what are Witch Hunters called in your neck of the global woods?


Hmm? They would be called Witch Hunters... I live on a shitty island in between Finland and Sweden called the Aland Islands in english, Åland in swedish or Ahvenanmaa in Finish. We are part of Finland but speak swedish and we have our own flag, the one in my profile.
The thing I hate about this shitty place is that prices are roughly 10% higher than in the rest of Finland and we are not part of EMU which means everything posted to me should be sent VAT free since I have to pay that at the post office, problem is pretty much no one outside of Finland and some stores in Sweden does this.

So if I buy something from Maelstrom for 100£ including their 15% off I will have to pay 24£ in import tax at the post office.

Wayland doesn't offer tax free export but they do give free shipping instead which is nice.

If I buy something below 43€ in worth I dont have to pay import tax, this is why I'd rather make 10 different orders with 1 box of models in each than one huge one.


----------



## Zenzi

Ah Grogbort you play the game Differently then the rule book at your store (nothing wrong with it as long as everyone agrees). Though techincly if they were all armed the same that would have been a Dead termy squad. (sorry this is off topic)


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## Azezel

Indeed. The two sets of wounds should have been saved discretely.

Five terminators should have had to make saves against the nine AP5 wounds, four making two saves, one making one. Any who survive would then have to take saves against the seven AP1 wounds, again, divided equally.

Or you could start with the AP1 wounds and then save against the AP5 ones, but I cannot imagine anyone doing that.


----------



## crooner

Azezel said:


> Actually, a Canonness has a 91.66% chance of succeeding on any Test of Faith, wheras asquad of 11 or more Sisters has a 97.22% chance of succeeding on any 'roll under' test. One sister on her own (after the rest of her squad has been killed) has a 97.23% chance of succeeding on any 'roll over' test.
> 
> Isn't math fun?
> 
> EDIT - if our new 'dex made all Test of Faith a straight Leadership roll, then most of the time that'd be the Sister Superior's leadership of 9, giving us a typical chance of 83.33%.
> 
> I suspect most of our armies are based around squads of ten Battle Sisters in Rhinos. Currently, such a squad has a 91.66% chance of getting Divine guidance, and a 13.89% chance of getting spirit of the Martyr.
> 
> So, my Brothers and Sisters - would you like Tests of Faith to be a straight Leadership test if that meant less chance of Divine Guidance and others(83.33% compared to 91.66%) but more chance of Spirit of the Martyr and others (83.33% compared to 13.89%).
> 
> I grant that the difference in probability is much greater for Spirit of the Martyr, so it looks like the change would be a net 'profit' over all Acts of Faith, but which Acts are the mosre useful to you?


Most of the people who I play against use more assault marines than I ever want to look at (I hate blood angels so much q_q). Given the number of power weapons that I usually have to deal with, I would gladly trade a lesser chance of Divine Guidance for a much greater chance of spirit of the martyr. It would give my vet superior a chance to use the eviscerator I gave her to swat them down.


----------



## rasolyo

I've done the same calculation Azezel did a while back, except with 10 sisters getting the jump on 10 marines in rapid fire range and passing a Divine Guidance check. The difference comes down to only a few marines. Considering the number of factors required to pull off a good round of Divine Guidance shooting, I really only end up using Spirit of the Martyr exclusively. Personally, Divine Guidance is just a nice upgrade to small Heavy Flamer/Flamer Celestian squads that can pull it off.


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## Azezel

MCC - I meant to ask, why've all three rumour threads got an =][= at the start when two of the armies aren't Inquisitorial and one of them is only tangentally? Could we have a ⚜ at the start of this thread?


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## Kettu

An idea I personally have is something similar to original rules for Repentia.
Basically, a lone Repentia, Oblatia, Whateveria, is picked for a squad of normal Girls/Dominions/Retrubutions. They don't seem all that impressive with no PA, weaker weapons etc...
But, if the squad is charged then she will leap forth from the squad and counter charge the enemy, leaving the Sisters unmolested for another turn to do what they do best, Make them holey.


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## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> MCC - I meant to ask, why've all three rumour threads got an =][= at the start when two of the armies aren't Inquisitorial and one of them is only tangentally? Could we have a ⚜ at the start of this thread?


Basically I wanted to keep the threads at the top, so basically I'm making it an Inquistorial Rumours Roundup.


----------



## Grogbart

OK, I have read the rules in English again and you are right. 
But all it needs to make my example valid is considering one of the Termies a Seargent, a second one armed with a Cyclon Rocket launcher and a third one armed with a chainfist, isn't it?


----------



## Sworn Radical

Honestly, rules are secondary to me. As long as they don't mess up completely (which seems to be unlikely given the recent codex releases) and the Sisters will still be playable, yet not overpowered, I'd be content. I play and collect armies for fluff reasons, and my army lists reflect this on the tabletop when battle comes-a-callin'.

On my wish list for a future codex would be the (inevitable) return of the Zealot / Frateris Militia troops, some ecclesiarchical units sprinkled in between the pages (Confessors and Missionaries maybe, like in the 1998 codex.) and maybe minor options for Ordo Hereticus retinues (so I could still use my henchmen squad). Zealots would be the most important aspect though for me.

Oh, and give regular Sisters troops the option for either a hvy. flamer or a hvy. bolter again.


----------



## SilverTabby

> @SilverTabby
> 
> In general your right, I was just picking out the worst cases, but when comparing a Ld 10 leadership test to rolling equal to or under a squad size(e.g. Divine Guidance) of eleven Sisters, you have to admit the eleven sisters are better off. Not to mention rolling equal to or above squad size (e.g. Spirit of the Martyr) for a squad of two leftover Sisters!


That is indeed true. However, the situations where I make a roll for my Canoness are far more frequent than the situations where I have a full strength squad or only 2 girls remaining :wink: Averaging out over a full game, the Canoness would win in the game of rolling odds, as hers are consistantly high as opposed to changing all the time. 

Anyway, back to topic: I think it's far more likely that AoF will be leadership-based, but less powerful than they are now (the Invulnerable Save one is just sick, and I get sworn at a lot when I use it). The suggestion that spending differing amounts of Faith depending on how good the power is is a good one. For example: 1 FP and a Ld roll to regroup regardless of conditions / become Fearless, 3FP + Ld to get Rending on all weapons, etc.

There is always the possibility though, that they will do for Sisters what they did for GK: Each type of squad gets a power specific to them. It may use the psyker rules for consistancy, but be referred to as something else like an Act of Faith (as actually calling them Psykers would just be - well, nuts).


----------



## andrewm9

SilverTabby said:


> Anyway, back to topic: I think it's far more likely that AoF will be leadership-based, but less powerful than they are now (the Invulnerable Save one is just sick, and I get sworn at a lot when I use it).


When that happens to me I point out Space Marine terminators who can get it all the time with no conditions like a roll and it being useful for 1 phase of a turn or that I have to plan in advance to use it since its the beginning of said phase. If he still complains then he is a d-bag and I don't play them again.


----------



## Tahiri

Necrosis said:


> I think blessed ammunition should just be an upgrade that certain units can take, like retributors.


I am sure we well get something like that, after all nearly all GK units can take "psybolt ammo."


----------



## hungryugolino

Silly Tahiri, don't you know that only Marine codexes get upgrades like that? Even if they weren't supposed to be Marine codexes.


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## Azezel

If Grey Knights can litterally shoot through walls then I don't think blessed Ammunition for infantry is too great a thing to ask for.

I hope that Holy Promethium will be available too - BUT, that it has a different effect. the current effect is somewhat pointless - but I think we do need our flamers to be better than everyone else's, it's our thing.



SilverTabby said:


> There is always the possibility though, that they will do for Sisters what they did for GK: Each type of squad gets a power specific to them. It may use the psyker rules for consistancy, but be referred to as something else like an Act of Faith (as actually calling them Psykers would just be - well, nuts).


That would be very very distressing. The one Act per unit bit OR the psyker mechanics, both or either would be very bad. Although if this Necron 'tech upgrade' rumour proves true, it could happen. Scary thought.

I like the current Faith system (though I think we need more Acts to choose from) but I would not be too unhappy to see the second ediotion Sacred Rites* system resuurected, albeit with different effects.

*At the start of the game, roll a d6 for each unit, modified by some factors (+3 for a Heroine in the unit, -1 for a psyker in the army etc), consult a table to get a funky power.

The system would fit in with other armies, like Red Space Marines that require dice to be rolled to grant effects to a unit at the start of the game.

I'd preffer to keep the current system, but Sacred Rites wouldn't be too bad.


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## Kinglopey

Getting the Inv Save would be pretty gross for a LD test, but if you look at the new GK dex, Crusaders get that and a power weapon for 15 points, no test needed...

I like the Idea that someone mentioned about having other non-militant Sisters in the dex like the Hospitaler, spreading the FNP love around would definatly help against mass Las Gun fire.

I think they should rework the "Immune to Minor Psychic powers" thing to bring it back, like maybe immune to powers that don't require a test?

Repentia need FNP


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## Azezel

Kinglopey said:


> I think they should rework the "Immune to Minor Psychic powers" thing to bring it back, like maybe immune to powers that don't require a test?


Are there such powers? I thought that all psychic powers required a psychic test?

I think the Shield of Faith is sound in principle, but given that it's our _only_ psychic defence in an army that's supposed to be the best there is at killing witches, it could do with a little bump in power.

We currently have no way to counter powers that do not affect a Sororitas unit, and, compared to say, Space Wolves or GK defences, a 5+ nulification seems very poor.

Maybe bump Shield of Faith up to 4+, and add something to mess with powers that don't affect us.

I'd also like to see some weapon akin to the WH psyk-out warhead - something that removes psychic powers from the enemy models.

I wonder how smug Grey Knight devs would feel without Astral Aim...


----------



## Kinglopey

You know, thinking about it the powers that don't need a test only effect the unit that cast it. Like Eldar Exarch powers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> *At the start of the game, roll a d6 for each unit, modified by some factors (+3 for a Heroine in the unit, -1 for a psyker in the army etc), consult a table to get a funky power.
> 
> The system would fit in with other armies, like Red Space Marines that require dice to be rolled to grant effects to a unit at the start of the game.
> 
> I'd preffer to keep the current system, but Sacred Rites wouldn't be too bad.


I mentioned this around the DE release, about sisters getting a reverse DE system and something like combat drugs.

SACRED RITES TABLE
D6 Result
1 No effect.

2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration
of the battle. See the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook.

3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy See the
Warhammer 40.000 rulebook tor details.

4 The squad adds + 1 to its Leadership for the duration of
the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.

5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer40,OOO
rulebook for details.

6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on
a D6. Note that this is not a nullify - roll for each model:
on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be
affected by the psychic power while others aren't.

7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and
Break tests it is required to make.

8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it
pays no heed to its own safety. The squad may ignore
the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad
or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy
characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad
and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic
Characters section of the Warhammer 40.000 rulebook.

9 Once in the battle, at the end or the shooting phase, the
squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or
recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or
recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.

These were the old rules, I'm sure you could tweak some of these to make something that's allot more usable.

You may chose 1 from the following list up to the maximum of your die roll. So if you roll 6 you could chose any effect from 1-6.
It could easily be change to :

1. No effect

2. Fearless

3. Preferred Enemy

4. Stubborn

5. Holy Hatred (always hit on 3+ in CC for those that dont know)

6. Squads nullify any psychic power cast on them on a 4+

7. Iron Will

8. All weapons and ammo are blessed

9. At the end of the shooting phase whole army may fire again, at different targets if they so chose.

10. Chose 2 of any powers listed below.


----------



## Azezel

Kudos to you, MCC - I got 1/3 of the way through copying that table out of my Codex: Sisters of Battle and then realised I couldn't be bothered.
I stand by what I said - I'd preffer the current system stay, albeit with extra options, but I would not be too upset if we went back to Sacred Rites, with updated effects.


Since I'm posting anyway, a question occured to me earlier.



5e Core Rulebook said:


> THE SISTERS OF BATTLE
> The Adepta Sororitas, or the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant as they are otherwise known, are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum armies. Utterly dedicated to the protection of the Imperium, the Battle Sisters are trained and equipped to the highest standards. Wherever there are foes of the Emperor, the Sisters of Battle will be found fighting to the last.
> 
> *There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas*, the fighting strength of each *numbering several thousand warriors*, as well as *many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters*. An Order's warriors rarely fight as a single unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones. Nevertheless, the Sisters of Battle rank amongst the Imperium's most trusted defenders, for their unshakeable faith can overcome all but the most terrible foes.


That is the entirely of the Sisterhood's fluff in 5e (written by Mr. Mat 'If I start slapping you I may never stop' Ward, if you didn't know. Funny old world, eh?).

Note my bolding. Depending on how you choose to interpret those numbers, that gives the Sisterhood as a whole anywhere between 10'000 and perhaps 50-60'000 Battle Sisters. (And from those two paragraphs, it appears that the Sisters non-militant simply don't exist). Also note that there are *Three* Orders Majoris, not six.

What do we think the new codex might have to say on the matter?

Struggle as I may, I cannot think of a single 5e mention of the Sisters non-militant. Could they really bee gone? I also cannot garantee that all six Orders Majoris have been mentioned in 5e codices/supliments, could three of them really be gone?

If not, how will the codex retcon the retcon?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I would like to see the return of Sacred Rites and that Acts of Faith stay, I would also prefer is AoF lasted a whole game turn instead of just a phase.

I couldn't find the orders list but the ones I remember are

Orders Militant which are all the Sisters of Battle convents like Valorous Heart etc
Orders Hospitaller which are the medics
Orders Famulous who do family gene research and things like that
Orders Dialogus who facilitate marriages, trade deals and things of that nature

I know one very small order is in charge of collecting rare items, like relics or something like that.

In all of 5ed the Sisters of Battle have never been mentioned in any of the expansions and hardly anywhere else. Heck the mention in the GK codex about them getting slaughtered by GKs could be considered the most attention they have received from GW in 5+ years.

Games Workshop hates women, it's the only reasonable explanation. They hardly show any support at all for female miniatures, the new DE ones were the first in a loooooong time. I was going to write a 5 page long rant but I just can't be arsed. When I go to games day uk this year I will ask every single gw employee there why GW hates women...


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I would like to see the return of Sacred Rites and that Acts of Faith stay, I would also prefer is AoF lasted a whole game turn instead of just a phase.
> 
> I couldn't find the orders list but the ones I remember are
> 
> Orders Militant which are all the Sisters of Battle convents like Valorous Heart etc
> Orders Hospitaller which are the medics
> Orders Famulous who do family gene research and things like that
> Orders Dialogus who facilitate marriages, trade deals and things of that nature
> 
> I know one very small order is in charge of collecting rare items, like relics or something like that.


The Dialgous are not responcible for marriages, trade deals etc, those are concenrs of the Famulous. The Dialogous are purely language schollars.

Orders Militant (Battle Sisters)
Known Orders: Ebon Chalice, Sacred Rose, Argent Shroud, Valerous Heart, Bloody Rose, Our Martyred Lady

Orders Hospitalier (Healers, surgeons apothicaries etc)
Known Orders: Cleansing Water, Torch, Eternal Candle, Serenity

Famulous (Advisors and retainers to Noble houses, and monitors of purity thereof.)
Known Orders: Holy Seal, Sacred Coin, Key, Gate

Dialogous (Translators, linguists, cryptographers and lexacographers)
Known Orders: Sacred Oath, Lexicon, Holy Word, Quill

Pronatus (Keepers and Seekers of relics, curators, antiquarians and archaeologists)
Known Orders: None

Sabine... The Sisters Sabine are themost mysterious and least discussed of all Sororitas. They infiltrate new worlds ahead of other missionaries and plant the seeds of conversions. They take the rolls of wise-women, or prophets or even witches and seers. They plant prophesies that later missionaries can fulfil, and examine local customs for hints of Chaos.
Known Orders: None

I would love our future codex to really flesh out the non-militant orders. The Sabine have all the makings of a fascinating entity. Their role could be further expanded as spies and assasins of the Church.

You know that Callidus Assasins in the GK 'dex do not have 'A word in your Ear?' Imagine if you could feild a Sister Sabine in your army, and her Order had planted a prophesy on this world 1'00 years ago, that she can exploit today to make the enemy deploy in your favour?

I think we'd all love to have a Sister Pronatus along with a golfbag full of sacred swords for our Celestians, and Hospitaliers granting FNP is a no-brainer.

However, that all depends on changing those two paragraphs from the core book, because right now, the entire Adepta Sororitas concists of three major orders and several minor orders of Sisters Militant, and nothing else.



MadCowCrazy said:


> In all of 5ed the Sisters of Battle have never been mentioned in any of the expansions and hardly anywhere else. Heck the mention in the GK codex about them getting slaughtered by GKs could be considered the most attention they have received from GW in 5+ years.
> 
> Games Workshop hates women, it's the only reasonable explanation. They hardly show any support at all for female miniatures, the new DE ones were the first in a loooooong time. I was going to write a 5 page long rant but I just can't be arsed. When I go to games day uk this year I will ask every single gw employee there why GW hates women...


Games Workshop do not hate women, and even if they did, they aren't smart enough to carry out a concerted fifteen-year smear-campain. It's not mailice, just apathy.

No-one at GW cares about the army. It used to be that the only people at GW who really cared about the Sisters were Gav Thorpe and Andy Hoare (Andy was at one point a regular poster on the old Sisters of Battle Yahoo! group. The man could tell some stories.)

Obviously, they were increasingly sidelined as the years went on. Gav just about managed to get them a Chapter Aproved artical back in '03 (EDIT - make that '02) and for political reasons they got shoehorned into Codex: Witch Hunters, where Andy* tried to do the best he could by them.

Now that Andy and Gav are no more there's simply no-one at GW who loves OR hates the Sisters. There're just a lot of middle-class British men who are subconciously really really squicked out by religeon.


*Andy Hoare is now writing for Fantasy Flight Games, he wrote Blood of Martyrs. Did you think it's a coincidence that Fantasy Flight Games has treated the Sisterhood better than Games Workshop has done in twenty years.


----------



## rasolyo

Azezel said:


> It's not malice, just apathy.


At this point I'd prefer the former over the latter, because aside from rumours and an unfavorable mention in the Grey Knights codex, I really don't see any sign of progress for the Sisters from GW's side.

Wow, Azezel. I didn't know that Andy Hoare was writing for FFG. I guess that explains a lot. It would also probably explain extreme fluff changes in the next Sister codex, given that what you say about the studio's attitude toward Sisters is still true.

Personally, I don't like the random nature of Sacred Rites and would prefer testing for success on a specific Act of Faith. Perhaps if the Sacred Rites roll could be modified, or even better, the rules be modeled after Power from Pain, allowing persistent effects.

Oh hey, wait. We can't have that. It'd be too awesome.


----------



## mahavira

The chief use I can see in a war for sisters dialogus is interception, interpretation, and interference with enemy communications (and questioning xeno prisoners prior to purging). Either the ability to interfere with enemy reserves like Master of the Fleet or perhaps allowing some kind of response to deep striking, outflanking and/or infiltration?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sister Hospitalier 3+ FNP or 12" 4+ FNP bubble (they are some of the best medicae in the imperium after all.

Famulous : Not really sure, as advisors they could modify reserve rolls or something

Dialogous : 6-12" Stubborn bubble, 6-12" -1 Ld to opponents bubble, something that affects morale would fit them pretty well I think.

Pronatus : All weapons in a unit becomes master crafted (maybe this would get too annoying since you would have to roll each weapon separately) or twin-linked

Sabine : Infiltrate or scout for the unit

Any of these could be really cool to see.


----------



## Azezel

rasolyo said:


> Wow, Azezel. I didn't know that Andy Hoare was writing for FFG. I guess that explains a lot.


Indeedy. The fact that FFG treat the Sisterhood better than GW ever has is not a coincidence.

Andy left GW in (I think) '08 and Gav left in '09. As I say, they were the only people at GW who actually like the Sisters. Now, the interesting thing to note is that, before he left, Gav was the director of all GW Intelectual Property - that is to say, the man with final word on fluff.

Most of us seem to agree that the fluff took a nose-dive right around the end of '09 with Codex: Space Wolves. One's tempted to say that this also is not a coincidence.

I'd certainly like to believe that Gav would not have let the Sisters be butchered by Space Wolves and Grey Knights in their respective codices.


----------



## the cabbage

I hope they don't treat the acts of faith too harshly.

A good deal of the depth and character (and possibly effectiveness) of the old codex was invested in the acts.

Apart from that they were only really shit marines with close range weapons.

IMO


----------



## SilverTabby

Azezel said:


> Struggle as I may, I cannot think of a single 5e mention of the Sisters non-militant. Could they really bee gone? I also cannot garantee that all six Orders Majoris have been mentioned in 5e codices/supliments, could three of them really be gone?
> 
> If not, how will the codex retcon the retcon?


It doesn't require a retcon. They simply didn't put in all the details. It's easier to add to something than change it if you wrote too much and it's wrong. 

As to 'hating the SoB' - that's simply not true. Yes, Andy was a major pushing factor for them, but so is Jez Goodwin. The thing mostly holding them up is the moulding processes for any new plastics (which is getting fixed in Jez's own words), and the financial catch 22 situation which plagued the Dark Eldar. The models were bad / too expensive, so no-one bought them. Because no-one bought them, they didn't warrant an upgrade. No upgrade or new codex means no new figures, so they stay bad / too expensive... 

Over the years, ideas about combining the Inquisition were bandied about, but the high-ups said no. So we've had to wait for individual ones. The GK Codex gives hope for Ordo Xenos builds, but you're still unlikely to see any DeathWatch Codex for a LONG time, if ever. It's just too similar to Codex SM (what with them just being Space Marines and all  ). 

Also, Gav was never the final word on all GW IP. There were several people above him in the heirarchy, and that's just within the Studio. 



> Now that Andy and Gav are no more there's simply no-one at GW who loves OR hates the Sisters. There're just a lot of middle-class British men who are subconciously really really squicked out by religeon.


Again, not true. For one, see the reasons above. Also, with religion being the mainstay and driving force behind all Imperial Doctrine, saying they are "squicked out by religion" is a little naieve. They are, however, for the most part a bunch of middle-class white men, you're right there :biggrin:

Basically, the main problem the Sisters have always had is that they are a fringe army. They will always play second fiddle to the major Chapters and Races, and only be updated when it is financially viable, no matter how many people fight their corner. The only time that changes (for any fringe army) is when a big name pushes their corner. 

When Andy told me in mid-08 that I'd be waiting at least 2 years, that sounded about right. It's a shame he won't be writing it himself, but I'd be happy with an update that was along similar lines to the GK Codex. The fact that the Hereticus Inquisitor in there gets stiffed on good items actually increases my hope that we'll see the Codex before 6th Ed (where they will get more good options), and the fact that the GK Codex has wording that indicates it's compatible with 6th Ed means our new book will also be so.


----------



## Kettu

@Azezel;
You left of the 'Dark' Sisters of Order Vespila. (Blood of Martyrs, pg78 & 97)
They oversee the sanctification and burial of dead Ecclesiarchy and Sororita members as well as handle autopsy work and forensics.

CSI: Sisterhood

"Priest was shot seven times with a stubgun before he died."
"I guess you could say...

...He was holey."


----------



## Azezel

SilverTabby said:


> It doesn't require a retcon. They simply didn't put in all the details. It's easier to add to something than change it if you wrote too much and it's wrong.
> 
> As to 'hating the SoB' - that's simply not true. Yes, Andy was a major pushing factor for them, but so is Jez Goodwin. The thing mostly holding them up is the moulding processes for any new plastics (which is getting fixed in Jez's own words), and the financial catch 22 situation which plagued the Dark Eldar. The models were bad / too expensive, so no-one bought them. Because no-one bought them, they didn't warrant an upgrade. No upgrade or new codex means no new figures, so they stay bad / too expensive...
> 
> Over the years, ideas about combining the Inquisition were bandied about, but the high-ups said no. So we've had to wait for individual ones. The GK Codex gives hope for Ordo Xenos builds, but you're still unlikely to see any DeathWatch Codex for a LONG time, if ever. It's just too similar to Codex SM (what with them just being Space Marines and all  ).
> 
> Also, Gav was never the final word on all GW IP. There were several people above him in the heirarchy, and that's just within the Studio.
> 
> 
> Again, not true. For one, see the reasons above. Also, with religion being the mainstay and driving force behind all Imperial Doctrine, saying they are "squicked out by religion" is a little naieve. They are, however, for the most part a bunch of middle-class white men, you're right there :biggrin:
> 
> Basically, the main problem the Sisters have always had is that they are a fringe army. They will always play second fiddle to the major Chapters and Races, and only be updated when it is financially viable, no matter how many people fight their corner. The only time that changes (for any fringe army) is when a big name pushes their corner.
> 
> When Andy told me in mid-08 that I'd be waiting at least 2 years, that sounded about right. It's a shame he won't be writing it himself, but I'd be happy with an update that was along similar lines to the GK Codex. The fact that the Hereticus Inquisitor in there gets stiffed on good items actually increases my hope that we'll see the Codex before 6th Ed (where they will get more good options), and the fact that the GK Codex has wording that indicates it's compatible with 6th Ed means our new book will also be so.


I absolutely don't think that GW hates the Sisterhood. I keep saying that it's apathy at worst.

I'm greatful for the information onhow things work at GW.

Thing is: As much as the Sisterhood is a fringe army, I beleive it does not have to be. I swear that if I had a plastic Battle Sister for every time someone on a forum posted 'I'd collect Sisters if they were plastic' I'd be playing Apocalypse with all infantry. The desire is there.

As I understand it, in 2002 GW ran a poll asking what models people most wanted in plastic. Sisters of Battle won, and by a significant margin. The top four in fact were Sisters, Valhallans, Red Corsairs and Cadians in that order . As you all know, in 2003 Plastic Cadians!

Provided they don't cock it up I cann fully see a new Sisters codex/model line being the most popular and best selling launch in years.


----------



## Hurricane

Just a quick question for everyone who seems to be in the know as far as SoB go. I really love the models for SoB currently (except why do they have to be metal!) and I would definitely pick some up if they were released in plastic. I was wondering if fluff wise, would it make sense for them to be fighting side by side with Grey Knights? This would primarily be for apoc gameplay and of course all rules go out the window there, but would that alliance make sense without any stretch of the imagination?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sisters have been known to fight alongside the GKs on many occasions, it pretty much always ends in the sisters getting killed though, by either the enemy or the GKs themselves.

From a fluff point of view the only armies I could see them having a REALLY BIG problem teaming up with would be Eldar and Chaos. The rest wouldn't be impossible, though improbable with the xeno races.


----------



## TheSpore

For all those that missed this old post I put up. 

Greetings!

Thank you for writing in to us! The Sisters of Battle are not getting discontinued. Last year the same thing happened to Grey Knight models on the website and look at what was just released! Unfortunately, we do not know the release date or any information regarding the new Book or models. I apologize about the inconvenience. 


Thanks!

This is an actual email sent to me by GW gustomer services last week... You can chock it up as BS if you want whatever. For obvious reasons I left the senders name out and as I would suspect with how secretive GW is about there release of information this makes total sense and adds strength to them getting a new dex and shifting to plastic.

Ya see GW has prolly been working on this army for quite some time since they need such a masssive overhaul. But there are some key things that seem to be making many changes within the GW way of buisness.

1. sculpting takes much time and effort. GW may have many great sculpters working on projects but one must remember to gain the high detail and quality of minitures it takes much time. Think about when you decide to do a green stuff heavy conversion you can easily spend days on one portion of that model. In this case you would be sculpting from absolutely nothing. 
2. Now not everything is being sculpted in reality a lot of it is being done digitally as well which is why so many of the newer kits have had such better detail and greater quality than what we have seen in the past. Also digital work is actually speeding up the time it takes to get these newer minis out to the consumers. What really slows the process down is the prototypeing phase where the molds are made and figuring out how best make the assembly of these models easy but not degrade in quality.
3. I read somewhere out there that GW is been hiring more personnel which can be a way of increasing output. GW seems to be listening to consumers more than they used to and are now tring to focus more making there customers happy.

Now as I have said many many times from what research I have done on GW and looking at current patterns on certain things it would appear that they are attempting to change the speed as in which they release new products not to mention the offial word that they will not be releasing a 6th Ed of 40k until all original armies have been updated. What I mean by this is look how fast we are already seeing a new WH fantasy book being released next month the tomb kings. Normally you don't see a new army update that quik right after a new 40k codex comes out. Also take in account the 2nd wave releases along with the newer expansion on fliers. I would judge by looking things so far you will see the new expansion in june or july along some of the other 2nd wave releases. By August and September time frame we will more than likely see a new Necrons dex along with the usual new models for them and by the end of the year we will more than likely see sisters then next year finally Tau.

People can call BS on me all they want. But you must consider one thing. This is the assesment of a former military Intel. Analyst. I do not go off of simple he said she said BS. I go after facts and dig as deep as possible to seperate the facts from the BS. I will not post information unless I am know full well it holds validity for if I was to lose my credability then I have nothing left for myself. So far all my assesments on GW have been correct and I will continue to work as hard as I can to stay on top of how GW does things. 

Thank you and know -rep or hate mail please


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## Azezel

Azezel said:


> I swear that if I had a plastic Battle Sister for every time someone on a forum posted 'I'd collect Sisters if they were plastic' I'd be playing Apocalypse with all infantry.





Hurricane said:


> I really love the models for SoB currently (except why do they have to be metal!) and I would definitely pick some up if they were released in plastic.


You see!


Anyway - I'm going to disagree with MCC and say that the Sisterhood would absolutely not ally with xenos, even briefly. Space Marines would, even the Guard, but it's just not in the Sisters' nature.

The Sisters are not fools and they are not idiots, but they are zealots, and their faith is absolute. They will never, ever compromise, never give on even the most insignificant matter.

I'm not entirely sure how fluffy it is to work with Grey Knights these days either, now that the GK are sorcerers, ritualists and practicioners of 'the six chants of denial (Slaanesh's sacred number and theme), the seven words of life and death (Nurgle's sacred number and theme), the eight songs of battle (Khorne's sacred number and theme), the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick (Tzeentch's sacred number and theme)'.


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## Winterous

Azezel said:


> I'm not entirely sure how fluffy it is to work with Grey Knights these days either, now that the GK are sorcerers, ritualists and practicioners of 'the six chants of denial (Slaanesh's sacred number and theme), the seven words of life and death (Nurgle's sacred number and theme), the eight songs of battle (Khorne's sacred number and theme), the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick (Tzeentch's sacred number and theme)'.


They aren't sorcerers, sorcerers are Psykers who follow Chaos, and GK definitely don't.
In the recent fluff they've been said to dabble in the Chaotic powers as a weapon against the enemy (haven't read any of it, but yeah); it's definitely a big change from the zero-tolerance they used to be, but it still makes sense.

I really don't see the problem with performing rituals anyway, it's just a different way of channelling psychic energies, isn't it?
To me that seems like comparing the harmless spiritual communion with daemonic sacrifice rituals.


----------



## hungryugolino

Azezel said:


> I'm not entirely sure how fluffy it is to work with Grey Knights these days either, now that the GK are sorcerers, ritualists and practicioners of 'the six chants of denial (Slaanesh's sacred number and theme), the seven words of life and death (Nurgle's sacred number and theme), the eight songs of battle (Khorne's sacred number and theme), the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick (Tzeentch's sacred number and theme)'.


I'm going to desperately reach out and say that the Knights aren't sorcerors in the Chaos-using sense. They're simply normal psykers, their rituals don't call on the warp gods for power, and the chants are in opposition to the powers whose numbers they use (denial=slaanesh? Nurgle=life?)

That, or Matt Ward is a complete idiot.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> You see!
> 
> 
> Anyway - I'm going to disagree with MCC and say that the Sisterhood would absolutely not ally with xenos, even briefly. Space Marines would, even the Guard, but it's just not in the Sisters' nature.
> 
> The Sisters are not fools and they are not idiots, but they are zealots, and their faith is absolute. They will never, ever compromise, never give on even the most insignificant matter.


Hold on if sisters of battle are willing to work with a heretical rouge pskyer then why not a xeno? Remember faith and fire.


----------



## Shandathe

I remember that book all too well... Ignoring for a bit that the story got buried under trivia and most of the characters were made out of thin cardboard, the Sister that did so was not only trying to find out about something worse, she wasn't so much working *with* him as holding him at gunpoint. 

And she still ended up demoted, tossed out of the Celestians for her trouble.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> Hold on if sisters of battle are willing to work with a heretical rouge pskyer then why not a xeno? Remember faith and fire.


I've been trying to forget it...

As to who they would or would not ally with, it rather depends on the situation and your definition of ally. If there's a demonic invasion, I have difficulty thinking that they wouldn't at least entertain a "we'll shoot you later" agreement with most xenos races, which is probably the extent of any cross factional alliance in the grim darkness of the far future.


----------



## Azezel

Necrosis said:


> Hold on if sisters of battle are willing to work with a heretical rouge pskyer then why not a xeno? Remember faith and fire.


Faith & Fire, if written accurately, would have been ten pages long. The moment she heard witchspeech in her mind Sister Miriya would have filled Vaughn with enough neurotoxin and/or boltshells to kill a concrete elephant.

Although the first time I read it I was willing to overlook that bit and give the book another chance. That chance was used up when someone burst into a Canonness' office waving a chainsword and _didn't_ get his head blown off either by instinct or on general principle.



mahavira said:


> If there's a demonic invasion, I have difficulty thinking that they wouldn't at least entertain a "we'll shoot you later" agreement with most xenos races, which is probably the extent of any cross factional alliance in the grim darkness of the far future.


Yep, that's about the size of it. It's not an alliance it's... Target prioritization.


----------



## TheSpore

isnt that the same concept as the BA and necrons battle


----------



## Winterous

TheSpore said:


> isnt that the same concept as the BA and necrons battle


Yes, which serves to suggest that the Necrons aren't mindless automatons, butt conscious beings.


----------



## rasolyo

Winterous said:


> ...butt conscious beings.


I guess they've gone too far with their diets, then. They look anorexic!


----------



## TheSpore

Winterous said:


> Yes, which serves to suggest that the Necrons aren't mindless automatons, butt conscious beings.


From some of the stories ive read andsome fluff in the codex it does show that even if they weren't mindless beings that they still have somewhat of a thought process capable of reasoning. Hence forth why they still have to take morale tests


----------



## ashikenshin

rasolyo said:


> I guess they've gone too far with their diets, then. They look anorexic!


I guess they couldn't blame the pants. :biggrin:


I want the next codex to make my 2000+ points of necron turn into 1000 so I have an excuse to buy the new shinnies


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## MadCowCrazy

I own like 100+ warriors and 10+ destroyers, I'm hoping to get some plastic flayed ones as those are my favourite necrons


----------



## TheSpore

I pray they do Plastic immortals it has always been such a rip off to buy those things


----------



## crooner

So... Crons aside, does anyone think that there will be something new with the exorcist? 
Whenever anyone talks about new sisters goodies, nobody mentions this. It's pretty good at what it does, but does anyone suppose they would come out with some different shots for it to fire? Space marine Whirlwinds have different types of ammo, so I could see the exorcist getting a lower strength, lower AP weapon with barrage. Or a shorter range attack with less shots that also has the melta rule. 
This isn't me wish listing, it's just speculation that's probably wrong


----------



## TheSpore

I hope they don't change much on the exo missiles . I like the D6 shots and S8 AP 1 profile but if they do change it I would hop they just make a barrage or ordinence weapon really. The design of the weapon really doesn't represent a direct fire weapon. even in DOW it was a barrage and ordinence weapon. I think the model itself is ace but could use a lil improvement and would be a lovely plastic kit worth paying for.


----------



## Kettu

@Crooner;

I'm kinda worried about what will become of the Exorcist.
GW has a tendency to, when an update is made, make the previously weaker units stronger so people will actually go and buy them but also nerf the previously stronger ones as to 'discourage' continued use. (Read; go buy more minis.)
Sadly, GW has never really learned how to do this delicately and we end up with things like Sir. Carnifex.

Exorcists are currently the onlymost used tank the Sisters have due to it basically being the only thing with long range and anti-tank in the entire army.

GW will not see things like that though, they just see ₤₤₤.

I'm also afraid GW will really ramp up the 'These things are rarer then a SoB Victory' and/or 'These things are more temperamental then Black Library's Quality Control' aspects.
Both of these served no purpose originally but to further place shit on the Sisters.
Honestly, the tanks are some of the most recent things that the Ad-Mech have ever built; Are they THAT incompetent a faction that they lost the blueprints and have to play Cluedo just to give it an oil-change?


----------



## Azezel

Barrage/Ordinance is a no-brainer, and I'd personaly like to see it made Rending what with all the AV14 that's knocking around these days.

I've also seen it suggested that each Weapon Destroyed result should reduce the number of shots fired by 1, instead of destroying the weapon.

GW are going all out on the idea of every army getting a spanking new 'big kit' (Dreadknight, Arachnorok, Tomb Sphinx, That DE bomber the name of which escapes me right now). I'm betting the Sisters get something big and plastic and suspiciously cheap pointswise.

That could be a new plastic Exorcist, in which case the rules will get even better, and the points may even go down too. It may be new Penitent Engines.

I'm betting it's something we've never heard of though. In that case, expect the Exorcist to keep the current rules, more-or-less, and be bumped up to 150 or so points so that the new thing looks more attractive.

I think if we're honest, we can admit that the Exorcist is currently a little too good for its points


----------



## Kinglopey

I think the Exorcist is fine as it is, which means it will probably get changed... LOL...

I hope it doesn't get Ordinance, because it will keep it from being able to move and shoot, I can see them making them a squadron like the Russ'. I'd also love to see a bonus from multiple Laud Hailers and Holy Icons, like maybe to the range...


----------



## andrewm9

Azezel said:


> Barrage/Ordinance is a no-brainer, and I'd personaly like to see it made Rending what with all the AV14 that's knocking around these days.
> 
> I've also seen it suggested that each Weapon Destroyed result should reduce the number of shots fired by 1, instead of destroying the weapon.
> 
> GW are going all out on the idea of every army getting a spanking new 'big kit' (Dreadknight, Arachnorok, Tomb Sphinx, That DE bomber the name of which escapes me right now). I'm betting the Sisters get something big and plastic and suspiciously cheap pointswise.
> 
> That could be a new plastic Exorcist, in which case the rules will get even better, and the points may even go down too. It may be new Penitent Engines.
> 
> I'm betting it's something we've never heard of though. In that case, expect the Exorcist to keep the current rules, more-or-less, and be bumped up to 150 or so points so that the new thing looks more attractive.
> 
> I think if we're honest, we can admit that the Exorcist is currently a little too good for its points


If I were redesigning it, I'd up the points to 150 and make the Pipe Organ do either (48" range, str 8, ap 1, heavy 4) or (48" range, Str 6, ap 3, heavy 1, ordnance barrage, large blast). That would be a gerat way to push a newer better plastic Exorcist. I'd also give it options for some extra guns or so liek some side sponsons of some sort just to give it something else to do when you lose that much awesome.


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## TheSpore

Personally Ide like to see them get something new tank wise like maybe a Land Raider varient of some sort. Im sure this wouldnt happen though. Im also hoping the penitent engines get some more beefing rules for em too.


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## elektra

I too think the exorcist is fine as it is but needs redesigning because that organ on the back makes transporting it a major headache not to mention the metal parts making it top heavy.
I have always wanted Sisters on bikes!!!Dominions on bikes,robes and hair flowing behind them with heavy flamers and melta guns with scout and outflank would be totally fucking awesome and level up the playing field with all the marine players out there.Especially those poxy Blood Angels.
Also what about some sort of trainee Sisters like the marine scouts.
I also think that faith is an integral part of the Sisters codex and is often the only thing that keeps us in the game so please leae it alone GWor at the least just add some more acts that will actulaly benefit the army.
I also think that some sort of add on character to help nullify psychic powers is a must with all the current nutters running about.
And the canoness,my favourite model.Tooled up she can take out anything and survive but please for the love of god for an HQ choice she must be given some decent stats.WS4 I4 S3 T3 is a joke for the leader of most players army.At least make her compatable with a Succubus from the Dark Eldar codex.


----------



## crooner

@ Kettu
I think they will probably make it more expensive, but I don't think they'll make it any worse. If they did, I can't think of what they could replace it with. They probably will make something big and expensive to tantalize people with but I doubt that it will fill the niche that the exorcist fits into... Of Course I'm still bad at this speculation thing. I've only been playing for two years, and I haven't seen much of how GW operates.

@ Azezel 

Rending would be amazing, the last game I played my exorcist was able to smash chimeras easily. For all the good it did to the opposing leman russ though, I might as well have been throwing marshmallows at it. It's still worth the points it costs though.


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## MadCowCrazy

The problem I see is that the sisters are basically a reboot similar to Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

What we can be 100% sure off will be that we will get plastic Battle Sisters

Plastic kits:
Battle Sisters (If this will include celestians, dominions, seraphim and retributors remains to be seen)
Repressor Transport
Penitent Engine Walker
Exorcists

I would expect to see the above in the 1st wave, there will also have to be some new kit for them.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Repressor was all we got.
IG got Valkyrie (Forge World model)
Tyranids got Tervigon (Forge World model)
GK got Dread Knight
Blood Angels got the Furioso Dreadnought

If you look at what we could get we have

Battle Sisters
Celestians
Dominions
Retributors
Immolator
Repressor
Penitent Engine
Exorcist

I'm convinced we would receive at least 2 kits for sisters, a Battle Sisters box and a Seraphim box. The combined kit mentioned I would be more inclined to believe was a Celestian/Seraphim kit.
Then again they could do the kit like the GK PAGK box but that doesn't make much sense unless they want you to field VERY few models.

So my prediction would be
1st Wave
2 Infantry boxes
Repressor
Penitent Engine
New Exorcist or Immolator kit but probably not both.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> IG got Valkyrie (Forge World model)
> Tyranids got Tervigon (Forge World model)


What the hell are you talking about?
You mean that they USED to be Forge World?

And it's Trygon, if that's the case


----------



## Purge the Heretic

A few points:

1. After nerfing arco flagellents to hell and back in the grey night codex, if we do see them in the codex, they will probably be in some sort of frateris militia warband, instead of their current fluffier form of ravening self-destructive monsters in the WH dex.

2. Sisters Repentia need survivability, either transports or FNP...however I'm afraid they may be relegated to a Banisher type slot in a warband as well.

3. If Kelly really is the lead on this dex, I'm not sure the other two points will be accurate, he tends towards fluffier units. However if their is some sort of unified plan for these dexes as there was for DH/WH...I won't be too pleased with some of the results, specifically arcos, as I loved them.

4. I hope it all happens ASAP, because the sooner we get this dex, the sooner FW can do an IA with sisters, and we get some nifty apocolypse stuff.
FW doesn't work on anything that will be coming from the main studio, and we need some fleshing out aside from the repressor, and the giant rolling shrine.

...they'll still probably do another marines vs eldar though...


----------



## mahavira

TheSpore said:


> Personally Ide like to see them get something new tank wise like maybe a Land Raider varient of some sort. Im sure this wouldnt happen though. Im also hoping the penitent engines get some more beefing rules for em too.


While a Land Raider Redeemer is the most thematically appropriate, it adds little beyond nigh indestructibility and functioning as an assault transport, which only matters if we have something good to put in it. If Celestians become actually good at close combat, it might make a good "flagship" for a cannoness and her celestian retinue. Or it could deliver acro flagellants or repentia, I suppose. Land raider crusader might work too - they can have a multi melta as well as hurricaine bolters, can't they?

And please GOD make Penitent Engines useful...even the current models are too awesome to belong to a unit so inefficient.



Purge the Heretic said:


> A few points:
> 
> 1. After nerfing arco flagellents to hell and back in the grey night codex, if we do see them in the codex, they will probably be in some sort of frateris militia warband, instead of their current fluffier form of ravening self-destructive monsters in the WH dex.
> 
> 2. Sisters Repentia need survivability, either transports or FNP...however I'm afraid they may be relegated to a Banisher type slot in a warband as well.
> 
> 3. If Kelly really is the lead on this dex, I'm not sure the other two points will be accurate, he tends towards fluffier units. However if their is some sort of unified plan for these dexes as there was for DH/WH...I won't be too pleased with some of the results, specifically arcos, as I loved them.
> 
> 4. I hope it all happens ASAP, because the sooner we get this dex, the sooner FW can do an IA with sisters, and we get some nifty apocolypse stuff.
> FW doesn't work on anything that will be coming from the main studio, and we need some fleshing out aside from the repressor, and the giant rolling shrine.
> 
> ...they'll still probably do another marines vs eldar though...


You think Acro Flagellants were nerfed? I thought it was a fantastic improvement that will result in people actually taking them. Give both Acro Flagellants and Death Cult Assassins as listed in the GK list, and I'd be really happy - both fill a gaping void in the SoB battle line and do so in a way that's consistent with fluff and doesn't undermine the main focus of close range fire.

Repentia: since Acroflagellants can now be put in vehicles, I would presume Repentia can as well.


----------



## Azezel

elektra said:


> I have always wanted Sisters on bikes!!! ... some sort of trainee Sisters like the marine scouts.





TheSpore said:


> Personally Ide like to see them get something new tank wise like maybe a Land Raider varient of some sort.


Please, people, please... Battle Sisters are not Space Marines! If you want bikers, scouts, land raiders etc there are seven whole codices of Space Marines, we don't need ours to become number eight.


----------



## Azezel

Lord Castellan over on BoLS recons that Black Templars are coming before Sisters.

He claims to have seen models and artwork - or to know someone who has, he's not very clear.

I don't think he's got a track history of good rumours (never heard of him myself), but I have often said that it makes sense for Black Templars to show up before 2013, and that I really couldn't see GW going three codices without an update for space Marines.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=14684

From Warseer



Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Please, people, please... Battle Sisters are not Space Marines! If you want bikers, scouts, land raiders etc there are seven whole codices of Space Marines, we don't need ours to become number eight.


I think on the vehicle front it's more or less inevitable that Sisters will be more like marines than not: SoB use the rhino chassis and already use rhinos and razorbacks (we call em immolators and they have slightly different load out, but it's the same idea) and I expect I'm not alone in dumping the super heavy and silly looking pipe organ for a whirlwind launcher on my exorcists. A direct fire support vehicle based on the rhino chassis will be a lot like a predator - there's no avoiding it. (Defective) Land Raiders were available in the WH codex (admittedly as a dedicated transport for inquisitor lords only) - while a LR is not especially useful to SoB unless they get a heavy hitting close combat unit to put in it, I don't think it dilutes fluff much to have a Land Raider Redeemer as a Canoness' command vehicle (all Land Raider variants as a standard heavy support choice, no I'm with you there).

Bikes: orks and eldar (both craftworld and dark) have them, so it's not like you're just matching marines. That said, I don't really feel a need for them, though the fast attack slot does need quite a lot of additions.

Scouts: If I were to do scouts for sisters I'd do it the reverse of space marine scouts: the idea of using your least experienced guys for such an important role is foolish to begin with. I'd make them a subset of Celestians with options like IG Storm Troopers and some sort of pinning weapon as an option (mortars or grenade launchers with phosphorous rounds?).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Personally I would love to see Repentia and Penitent Engines with the scout rule, they rush in before everyone else so it's both fluffy and would make them a bit more scary.


----------



## The Sullen One

While this is pure speculation on my part, I reckon the Sisters will end up as something of a cross between Veteran IG and Blood Angels. You'll get a lot of fast-moving units backed up by heavy firepower from your exorcists and the like.


----------



## mahavira

I said "if". I actually don't think SoB do their own recon: imperial guard or frateris militia riff-raff probably do it then the Sisters act as the hammer.

For bikers, rather than sisters themselves, redemptionist cultists as bikers might work better: rather than being much the same as SM bikers, the unit would work completely differently (and be much cheaper), with only flak armor and imperial guard type weapons (shotguns perhaps, with flamers and grenade launchers as upgrades) rather than bolters and whatnot, give em scout and furious charge.


----------



## Azezel

I've said before that I'd like cavalry. I have no objection to mounted sisters. In fact I'd get rid of dominions altogether and replace them with cavalry armed with lances with built in flamer or melta.

There are already people that think the Sisters are just another colour of Space Marine. If we had bikers, scouts and land raiders it would become difficult to refute that.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As for cavalry I could totally see the Arbites on horse with shield and power mauls.

Some rumours

Source


Lord Castellan said:


> So what do we think the next codexes are going to be?
> 
> Necron of course, then Templar, obviously, but what else is coming down the pipes? 6th edition in a few years? Personally I dont think we need a new rulebook so soon but ive heard the rumor mill.
> 
> BT will be sooner. They already have models and artwork for the boxes and so forth. They will be before Sisters I can guarantee it.
> 
> Depends on where they get their sources. Seeing the models and artwork at the factory is pretty solid.
> 
> Indeed. Its just what I heard from someone, may not be true. We'll see


Harry in response to this


Harry said:


> Sculpts have been around for at least 18 months. (and well worth a bit of saliva )
> 
> I honestly don't know the order they will appear ...
> 
> .... but if it helps, the order that I heard about them was: Grey Knights, Sisters, Black Templar.
> 
> Whilst I expect them to appear in this order .... This was a couple of years ago so anything could have happened in the development stages before release order was set in stone.
> 
> (Lord Castellan is a braver man than I ... I certainly would not be risking my todger on the table with a guarantee of anything!)


----------



## Azezel

'fraid I beat you to it, Old Man.

As for non-sororitaas cavalry: Frateris Militia cavalry is in the 2e 'dex. It cost an aditional 3 points/model and you had to ask your opponant's permission before hand. So god help you if you spent all week gluing your models to horses and the other guy said 'no'...


----------



## Grogbart

Dominions, as designated Special Weapon Teams, are one of the few things Space Marines do not have! So getting rid of them is not exactly what I would call a step toward making the Sisters less marine-like. I would rather drop the mandatory Transport and make them Troops.

As for Sisters riding anything from bikes to hoses, Pegasi to chariots... I wouldn't like it. I know it's not valid reasoning, but to my taste, it just doesn't fit the Sisters!


----------



## Azezel

I've not heard of him before, but someone called Ghost21 is posting rumours on Warseer - things that imply he has firsthand knowledge, and Harry seems to be confirming, or at least corroborating what he says - to the extent that Harry ever does.

That said, Ghost21 seems fairly illiterate which is a bad sign.



Ghost21 said:


> from what i heard bt will be in the new starter box ala black reach quickly followed by there dex, as i really dont colect marines i kinda usualy skip those meetings


Ghost21 and Harry both imply that they have seen new Black Templar sculpts - possibly for the 6e starter kit (It's not clear from what they have posted). Ghost21 recons it's 7/10 sure that BT and daemons are in the 6e starter kit.



Ghost21 said:


> the order i heard was bt just after 6th


I would fully believe that. BT are the marine chapter in Dark Millenium Online. Games Workshop would have to be stupid not to cash in on that. That would also be the best reason for putting BT in the starter kit.



Ghost21 said:


> oh sisters codex ... shall we say nicest codex cover of the year?


Which implies that they are coming this year?



Ghost21 said:


> sigh okay to put this back on tract with sisters rumours two words "armandus helfire"


Cardinal Armandus Helfire (Yes, just one 'L') was a special character in the 2e Codex: Sisters of Battle. I'd not be at all surprised to see ol' Stony return, and if he does that would imply that this is an Ecclesiarchal codex, not an Inquisitorial one. Which is nice.


Discuss.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

For those that dont know, this is somewhat what he would have in 5E

Cardinal Armandus Helfire
5 6 5 5 3 4 2 10 - Remember these are 2E stats so remove 1-2 from each stat to get 5E stats.
Plasma Gun and Sceptre of Avignor
Flak armour and Rosarius 4++
Sceptre of Avignor : +1S and units with LOS to him gets a regroup roll bonus.

Sacred Rites : No longer valid but he added +1 to it
Holy Disdain : Fearless + if unit he is with flees he will remain while they run away. Possibly a reverse Helion Hit and Run where unit runs away and he remains.
Commanding Voice : 18" LD 10 bubble
"OL'STONY" : No real equivalent any more, FNP represents this the best


----------



## Sworn Radical

Awesomeness. If they bring back old Armandus they might bring back Saint Praxedes as well !


----------



## Grogbart

Well, they certainly need to get creative to get to their current average of Special Charakters. 
But this time, please, if the Codex is indeed named 'Sisters of Battle', don't let the Sisters SCs be out numbered by non Sisters SCs, again!


----------



## Azezel

I hope they bring back St. Praxedes since I just got finished painting my counts-as last week.









If anyone is interested, she _does_ have modern (i.e. third edition) rules.



Citadel jounral #49 said:


> Saint Praxedes
> Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
> 130_ 5 _5 3 3 3 4 3 10 2+
> 
> Wargear : Boltgun, Meltabombs, Frag grenades, Purity Seals, Scepter of Vengeance(functions as a Thunder Hammer)
> Independent Character (unless accompanied by a retinue)
> Faithful. St Praxedes adds 3 Faith Points to the army's Faith Point total.
> Adepta Sororitas.
> Inspirational Leader. Units within 12" may use Praxedes' unmodified Ld10 for moral and pinning tests
> Irresistible Charge. Praxedes' strength is increased by 1 on the turn in which she assaults.


I've only used her once and in that game she never got to hit anything! somehow the rest of my army were just close-combat monsters that game and by the time initiative one came around whatever they were fighting was already dead.



Grogbart said:


> Well, they certainly need to get creative to get to their current average of Special Charakters.
> But this time, please, if the Codex is indeed named 'Sisters of Battle', don't let the Sisters SCs be out numbered by non Sisters SCs, again!


I'd be happy if the Sisters characters were simply _alive_. We have three special characters, St. Celestine, St. Praxedes and Helena the virtuous - all three are canonically dead. Two of them died in the same codex they were introduced in.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive bought that model as well, just waiting for an opportunity to use it 


What else has been introduced to the sisters or witch hunters through GW?
I know Zealots were added in a white dwarf, is there anything else that has been added?


----------



## Azezel

S'far as I know, it's just Praxedes, Helena, Zealots and the Repressor, and as you know, apart from the Repressor, none of those things were new, they were just left out of C:WH and then reintroduced.

I have Helena's stats around here somewhere, hang on a tick.



Citadel Journal #49 said:


> Helena the Virtuous
> Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
> 120_ 4 _4 3 3 2 3 3 10 3+/4++
> 
> Wargear : Master-crafted Boltgun, Frag grenades, Rod of Grace(power weapon), Purity Seals, Rosarius, Mantle of Ophelia
> Retinue. Helena must always be accompanied by a Celestian retinue
> Faithful. Helena adds 3 Faith Points to the army's Faith Point total, however if she is killed the Sisters lose D6 Faith points, to a minimum of 0 (this does not prevent later generation of faith)
> Adepta Sororitas.
> Holy Radiance. A squad with any model within 12" at the beginning of their turn will automatically regroup, subject to normal restrictions.


She's not quite as good for her points as Praxedes, but I am going to build a counts-as, to go with my counts-as Celestine and Praxedes, I just haven't got around to it yet.

Incidentally - I don't know how she died, but I like to think the Imperial Fists killed her (they are Space Marines, she was a Sororitas, it almost makes too much sense). Y'see, back in second edition, the Rod of Grace was not merely a power weapon, but a Crozius Arcanum that could shoot energy beams. Those of you who've seen Ultramarines the Movie will recal an Imperial Fist Chaplain armed with such a Crozius.

I admit to rolling my eyes when I saw that...


----------



## Sworn Radical

Neat, thanks for the stats for Praxedes & Ophelia ... ah, good old Citadel Journal.
As for more _'pure' _SoB special characters ... dunno, it gets boring pretty quickly if there's more than 3-5 I think ... all in all I tend to dislike the flood of special characters in the current codecii, especially with Marines. But it seems to be the trend, so some more ecclesiarchy characters would certainly be welcome - minor priests, confessors, missionaries, you name it.

Zealots I tend to use all of the time, squad of ten makes for a nice & cheap additional troop choice.


----------



## Azezel

Sworn Radical said:


> But it seems to be the trend, so some more ecclesiarchy characters would certainly be welcome - minor priests, confessors, missionaries, you name it.


As I recal, there were three Ecclesiarchal chaps in Codex: Sisters of Battle

Redemptor Kyrinov, Confessor Armandus Helfire and Uriah Jacobus the Protector of the Faith.

Compare two Sororitas characters, Praxedes and Helena. If GW brought back all five of them AND St. Celestine then that's be an even split, and around the expected number of SCs.



Sworn Radical said:


> As for more _'pure' _SoB special characters ... dunno, it gets boring pretty quickly if there's more than 3-5 I think ... all in all I tend to dislike the flood of special characters in the current _*codecii*_, especially with Marines.


Let's have a brief Latin lesson.

There are five major cases in Latin, these are the Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative and Abblative.

Every Noun (like 'codex'), Pronoun and Adjective in the language is modified according to usage, into one of the major cases, or, more rarely, one of the minor cases that are well beyond the scope of a post correcting some guy on the internet.

I seem to recal that German also modifies nouns according to case - so you'll be more comfortable here than me - English uses word-order to modify nouns and case only modifies Pronouns (with very rare/archaic exceptions).

Which brings me on to 'codex'. Since English nouns only have a Nominative case, which we use for all situations, we only ever use the Nominative form of those words we stole from Latin. The Nominative of 'codex' is 'codex' and the plural is 'codices'.

Even if we did use the other four cases, those plurals would be (I think, I'm more than a little rusty) Coducum, codicibus, Codices, Codicibus.

'Codecii' will never, ever appear in Latin or English. I keep seeing it on forums and it always irritates me. I cannot begin to imagine where it came from. It baffles the imagination.

If you want to use 'codexes' then I won't fight you (a chap has to pick his battles), I preffer 'codeces' but you follow your heart. Please, never 'codecii' though. It's not right, it's not even wrong.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I use codicies personally, GW uses codexes themselves.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Azezel said:


> Let's have a brief Latin lesson.
> 
> There are five major cases in Latin, these are the Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative and Abblative.
> 
> Every Noun (like 'codex'), Pronoun and Adjective in the language is modified according to usage, into one of the major cases, or, more rarely, one of the minor cases that are well beyond the scope of a post correcting some guy on the internet.
> 
> I seem to recal that German also modifies nouns according to case - so you'll be more comfortable here than me - English uses word-order to modify nouns and case only modifies Pronouns (with very rare/archaic exceptions).
> 
> Which brings me on to 'codex'. Since English nouns only have a Nominative case, which we use for all situations, we only ever use the Nominative form of those words we stole from Latin. The Nominative of 'codex' is 'codex' and the plural is 'codices'.
> 
> Even if we did use the other four cases, those plurals would be (I think, I'm more than a little rusty) Coducum, codicibus, Codices, Codicibus.
> 
> 'Codecii' will never, ever appear in Latin or English. I keep seeing it on forums and it always irritates me. I cannot begin to imagine where it came from. It baffles the imagination.
> 
> If you want to use 'codexes' then I won't fight you (a chap has to pick his battles), I preffer 'codeces' but you follow your heart. Please, never 'codecii' though. It's not right, it's not even wrong.



Lol, you're right I reckon. Guess I was using it for the reason you mentioned yourself: One sees it popping up all over the various 40k forums.
I believe the correct latin would be codicis or codices. 

As for the number of possible special characters in a future codex, yes, an even split would be nice, three SoB characters, three ecclesiarchical characters.


----------



## Azezel

Sworn Radical said:


> I believe the correct latin would be codicis or codices.



That's embarasing... In my post I misspelled 'codices' as 'codeces', twice. You are right and I made a mistake.

My face is suitably red.

And I stand by what I said before, I'll be happy just to have a named character that's still alive by the end of her codex entry.


----------



## hungryugolino

Azezel said:


> Incidentally - I don't know how she died, but I like to think the Imperial Fists killed her (they are Space Marines, she was a Sororitas, it almost makes too much sense). Y'see, back in second edition, the Rod of Grace was not merely a power weapon, but a Crozius Arcanum that could shoot energy beams. Those of you who've seen Ultramarines the Movie will recal an Imperial Fist Chaplain armed with such a Crozius.
> 
> I admit to rolling my eyes when I saw that...


They're not Blood Ravens.


----------



## SilverTabby

All these rumours of "Black Templars before Sisters" seem to be coupled with "BT are in the new box". Which, given that box is unlikely to make an appearance before next spring / summer, strongly suggests that you don't have to worry about them coming before the Sisters. 

They may well have seen sculpts - but if they've only just been sculpted then there's at least a 3-6 month wait before the first castings of any new plastics come back ready for use. Then 2 months of painting for the books, which happens 3 months in advance of the WD releases... I know the Grey Knights were finished and painted at least 8 months ago, if not earlier. 

Plus I rarely believe people when they say "I've seen the sculpts". Studio tours are not easy to come by, and if you do get to see them, talking about it online is not a good idea unless you're absolutely sure of your anonymity. If you saw them at a job interview, then blabbed about it online - good way of ensuring you never get that job. As for seeing something "by accident" ouside of the Studio... ah, no.

I'd be reluctant about Daemons being in the starter set - especially with their Codex being so hard to use right, even for veterans. It would _have_ to be the first one fixed, even before BT, else they'd put off all the new customers they want to rope in with the starter set. And a xenos / Chaos book being the first new release isn't unheard of: Tyranids have been the first new-edition release before now. 

Sisters / ecclesiarchy cavalry of some kind? Expendable Militia? I would adore these things to make a come-back. I agree Sisters should not be marine-clones. But there's plenty of ways to introduce variety and useful things without making them such...

Of course, as always, how much of this you believe is up to you. I don't claim to be accurate, I claim to have a lot of experience :wink:


----------



## Azezel

SilverTabby said:


> I'd be reluctant about Daemons being in the starter set - especially with their Codex being so hard to use right, even for veterans. It would _have_ to be the first one fixed, even before BT, else they'd put off all the new customers they want to rope in with the starter set. And a xenos / Chaos book being the first new release isn't unheard of: Tyranids have been the first new-edition release before now.


I doubt there'll be daemons in the starter kit, but for different reasons. The difficulty of playing daemons makes them an _ideal_ candidate for the starter kit when you remember that the purpose of the kit is to make new players collect _Marines_.

I doubt Daemons will be in the kit simply because they have to sell that kit not to Little Timmy, but to Little Timmy's mum - and she does not like the look of those nasty things. At least, that's what marketing are likely to believe.

My money is on Black Templars Vs Eldar - they might as well call the set Dark Millennium Offline. It almost makes too much sense.

Dark Millennium is due 2013. and this kit will be the one that is sold to every computer gamer looking to get into the tabletop, you'd have to be a damned fool not to make sure those computer gamers are instantly comfortable with the kit.



SilverTabby said:


> Sisters / ecclesiarchy cavalry of some kind? Expendable Militia? I would adore these things to make a come-back. I agree Sisters should not be marine-clones. But there's plenty of ways to introduce variety and useful things without making them such...


I quite agree. Not that we are exactly useless right now. A Sisters of Battle player won the Throne of Skulls today.



SilverTabby said:


> Of course, as always, how much of this you believe is up to you. I don't claim to be accurate, I claim to have a lot of experience :wink:


I claim to be irresistible to sexy millionairesses. Let's say I believe your claim more than you probably believe mine.


----------



## TheSpore

I would highly doubt seeing something like daemons in a new starter box as well. The full purpose of the box sets in not to rope marine players but to give the new players a choice in show two diffrent side of 40k to introduc. It only make sense to use CSM or Eldar since they are an army that can easily be picked up and understand. The daemon army just has too much weirdness to it that it requires a completely diffrentstyle of play. Its just not a beginner's army. Which is why I always get so angry at noobs who complain the army sux when they just don't understand it's play style.


----------



## rasolyo

So I've only begun reading the rules update for Imperial Armour 2. This was updated back in 2009(? someone correct me), and probably already discussed somewhere on the forum, but here are the rules for the Rhino and Immolator:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

From page 14 onwards you'll find the entry for SoB vehicles. Now I don't know what bearing this will have on the next codex, but while the Rhino has been updated for 5th edition (35 points with smoke launchers and updated fire point), the Immolator is pretty much at the same cost (65 points), with smoke launchers as a freebie, extra armour at 15 points and hunter-killer at 10 points.

Just wanted to put it out there for those who haven't seen it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Personally I think the Immolator will become a bit cheaper in one way or another, at least the heavy bolter should be a free choice as the only reason you would take it is to pair it up with Blessed Ammo. I'm hoping for side sponsons as that would make it a bit more viable. 80pt for 1 twin linked heavy bolter that ignores cover save? Not worth it though I have run 5 of them in an apocalypse game but everything had 3+ or inv saves so they were rather useless.

twin linked Inferno cannon and side sponson regular inferno cannons, that would make it a real beast.


----------



## Ninja D

Azezel said:


> You see!
> 
> 
> I'm not entirely sure how fluffy it is to work with Grey Knights these days either, now that the GK are sorcerers, ritualists and practicioners of 'the six chants of denial (Slaanesh's sacred number and theme), the seven words of life and death (Nurgle's sacred number and theme), the eight songs of battle (Khorne's sacred number and theme), the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick (Tzeentch's sacred number and theme)'.


_(I know this is a very late post but I'm just catching back up with the SoB rumor thread)_

If you look at Warhammer fluff overall (fantasy and 40k) there's a lot of correlation between the forces of order and destruction when it comes to the so-called separation of evil sorcery and what the good guys use. In fantasy, the eight schools of magic are directly associated with the eight winds of Chaos. It's just a way to show that it's the same source of power used in different ways. In 40k it's Chaos Sorcery or Sanctioned Psyker powers, it's the same source of power used by people who just have a different ideology (or religious slant or xenos discipline, etc.).

My point is that Grey Knights utilize the Warp because they are absolutely certain (i.e. have total faith in themselves and who they are) that they will not be corrupted using the very source of power daemons need to thrive. Sisters of Battle (imo) can relate to this Faith they have. It's just Sisters (who are intelligent yet zealously faithful to their beliefs) would ally with the one army that is truly incorruptible, they just wouldn't use the powers the Grey Knights use. Mainly because it is against their faith to do it themselves and they probably realize that it could corrupt them in the end.

The Sisters most likely tap into that very same source of power in a limited capacity through their faith in the Emperor. However you look at it, they pray to the Emperor and either he directly intervenes with Divine Intervention (read: His Psychic Might) or they are in fact, through dogma and ritual, unconsciously tapping into the power directly and manifesting it in what would look like miracles of faith.

Anyhow, just my take on the correlation of powers, be it sorcerous or psychic, as it pertains to the Sisters of Battle.


----------



## TheSpore

good explaination


----------



## huwbert98

*GUys its no romour*

:victory:I was at warhammer world and we watched a slide show on grey knight which mentioned that the sisters of battle would be getting and update this august


----------



## Morgankell

This August?

I'm a bit confused...

This conflicts with the Necron release this August, and will explain the October / November slot for the robots, but Sisters? The silence about "leaked" rules for the sisters makes me doubt, there's a lot more for Necrons. I'm not saying this wouldn't be, I'll be the first to be happy, it's my girlfriend's main army.

And she's praying for it.

Well, let's wait for the incoming article to see what's next, the 'Crons, the Sisters or the rumoured Summer of Fliers.

Thanks for the info huwbert98!!


----------



## SilverTabby

> So I've only begun reading the rules update for Imperial Armour 2. This was updated back in 2009(? someone correct me), and probably already discussed somewhere on the forum, but here are the rules for the Rhino and Immolator:
> 
> http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...pdate28AUG.pdf
> 
> From page 14 onwards you'll find the entry for SoB vehicles. Now I don't know what bearing this will have on the next codex, but while the Rhino has been updated for 5th edition (35 points with smoke launchers and updated fire point), the Immolator is pretty much at the same cost (65 points), with smoke launchers as a freebie, extra armour at 15 points and hunter-killer at 10 points.


Trouble with that, is that it's a FW update, not a GW FAQ or Codex update. So your opponent has every right to say "No, pay the Codex cost". As would I, and I play the army! If they were going to officially fix the prices, they'd've done it when they released the PDF version fo the Codex, to encourage it's use and discourage the Inducted Troops more. 



> I was at warhammer world and we watched a slide show on grey knight which mentioned that the sisters of battle would be getting and update this august


That sounds - dubious timing. I'm at Warhammer World tonight, what was the slideshow, who showed it and maybe I can get some more info?


----------



## Azezel

huwbert98 said:


> :victory:I was at warhammer world and we watched a slide show on grey knight which mentioned that the sisters of battle would be getting and update this august


August seems really unlikely given what we know about the state of the Sisters' models, and the rumours about other armies in the offing.

The only possibility would seem to be the hitherto mythical White Dwarf update, and it's hard to see why they'd bother when the current codex is still winning tournaments and the new one is only 12-18 months away.


So... yeah. What slideshow, by who, for who?


----------



## TheSpore

this is an intresting development but Here is a question to ask. Is GW attempting to put more out than normal. This is possible which i have seen by viewing rumours and watching current and new releases lately and would appaer that they are tring to put something new out faster and every month it is possible but it does conflict the original notion that they put imp. codex then xenos/ chaos codex.


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## MadCowCrazy

As for armies getting pushed back and what not, I pay very little attention to those rumours because what did we hear about the Dark Eldar and the Grey Knights... that they were getting pushed back yet they were released when they were expected to.

No matter what we will see a 40k release this autumn, what army it is has probably been set in stone by now. If it's Sisters or Necrons who knows but I doubt either of them has been "pushed back".


----------



## Azezel

TheSpore said:


> notion that they put imp. codex then xenos/ chaos codex.


They've never, ever, had a policy of that kind. It's been said a hundred times but every remotely reliable source has denied it. Denied in fact that there is a pattern of any kind.

It just _looks_ like there's a pattern because there are seven Space Marine codices and only nine non-marine ones, so chances are Space Marines get an update every nine months/year or so.

That said - so far fifth edition _has_ been marine-other-marine-other - but it's not a deliberate plan.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> As for armies getting pushed back and what not, I pay very little attention to those rumours because what did we hear about the Dark Eldar and the Grey Knights... that they were getting pushed back yet they were released when they were expected to.
> 
> No matter what we will see a 40k release this autumn, what army it is has probably been set in stone by now. If it's Sisters or Necrons who knows but I doubt either of them has been "pushed back".


I agree...

One thing though who wants to bet that GW staff patrol these forums just spread rumours and throw people off. We have a mole i our rank ladies and gentlemen so who is it.

For big head SM will find and make watch lots bad movies


----------



## Ninja D

TheSpore said:


> I agree...
> 
> One thing though who wants to bet that GW staff patrol these forums just spread rumours and throw people off. We have a mole i our rank ladies and gentlemen so who is it.
> 
> For big head SM will find and make watch lots bad movies


Two things:

1) That pic is awesome, and;

2) Where do I get one?


----------



## asianavatar

> 2) Where do I get one?


Pretty sure it was a one off custom made. So not likely you can get one.


----------



## Azezel

TheSpore said:


> I agree...
> 
> One thing though who wants to bet that GW staff patrol these forums just spread rumours and throw people off. We have a mole i our rank ladies and gentlemen so who is it.


I'm sure that the devs read and post on some fora - in fact you may recall I sent an open message to Mat Ward in case he reads this one. However, I don't imagine they spread deliberate false information. That strikes me as rather beneath adults.


Of course... That's exactly what I would say if I were one.

Hehe, a GW writer who likes the Sisters of Battle.. I don't normally laugh at my own jokes but that's a good 'un.


----------



## ohiocat110

Azezel said:


> I'm sure that the devs read and post on some fora - in fact you may recall I sent an open message to Mat Ward in case he reads this one. However, I don't imagine they spread deliberate false information. That strikes me as rather beneath adults.


Absolutely. Any company with a significant community/customer based internet presence would be stupid not to read them. It's probably reasonable to assume that they don't anonymously post, leak rumors, or spread misinformation, but you never know. "Dilbert" creator Scott Adams just admitted to trolling and self-promotion under false user names so I suppose anything is possible. 

Ultimately, rumor forums are just hype and speculation though. Nothing here means much until the Incoming! emails are sent and the product hits the streets. It would make little difference if GW staff was here or not. It would be quite a different story to find evidence of them posting in the tactics or rules sections though.


----------



## hungryugolino

> would be stupid not to read them


Your point is?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

ohiocat110 said:


> trolling in the tactics or rules sections though.


Fixed that for you, the only tactic GW knows is the one where you have to use the most expensive minis in a pretty random force org...


----------



## Azezel

ohiocat110 said:


> "Dilbert" creator Scott Adams just admitted to trolling and self-promotion under false user names so I suppose anything is possible.


But Scott 'women are mentally handicapped' Adams has always been a tosser, and GW staffers don't seem to be.

Whatever beefs we may have with their work, you'll never find someone who says 'I met Ward/Johnson/Thorpe/Cruddace and he was a bastard'. It's always 'Ward/Johnson/Thorpe/Cruddace etc was a nice guy'.

Reading rumour fora? Almost certainly yes (even if not this specific site). Posting rumours? Could happen, subject to NDCs. Trolling or spreading deliberate disinformation? Not bloody likely.


----------



## TheSpore

You never kniw though there are pretty big assholes out there


----------



## Azezel

Innocent until proven guilty, Old Man.


And to change direction somewhat - I'm more-or-less assuming that there will be some kind of 'big kit' in the 'dex. Something along the lines of the Dreadknight/Stormraven/Voidraven/Arachnorok/Sphynx.

Obvious candidates include Penitent Engines and the Exorcist, but I'm inclined to dismiss those since people already _have_ those models (Well, the Exorcists, anyway).

So, what are we thinking? It's likely going to be a complete surprise - something that's never been heard of, but there are only so many options, right?

In December I believe Bindy said there was a plastic thunderbolt fighter in production - but that it would not be ready for any 'summer of flyers'.

That'd put the release window around the same time as we're predicting Sisters. Instinct tells me we're not getting a Thunderbolt, though.

Word on the street is that sixth edition will have flyers (that rumour seems entirely based on the inclusion of fast skimmers in BA, DE and GK) - so some kind of fast skimmer/flyer in all but name is a distinct possibility.

Something that does the same (or almost the same) job as the Exorcist seems very possible. Perhaps some kind of Artillary or a main battle tank?

Then there's some kind of, well, the wishlists all seem to call it a battle cathedral. Some manner of self-propelled church covered in guns. Can't say the idea appeals to me, but lots of people seem to want it and it would certainly qualify as a big kit.

That seems to cover the most likely bases (flyer/tank/battle cathedral). A walker seems unlikely (though I'm betting penitent engines will be in the 'dex, with or without a new kit) and though I'm sure we'll get new infantry units, those kits probably would not qualify.


----------



## mahavira

What, going back to topic? Inconceivable.

Wrt the big cathedral on wheels thing, I know I've read about people converting baneblades to something like that, but it's difficult to imagine a superheavy going into the main 'dex (and I can't say I'd buy one, I find even the GW Exorcist aesthetically offensive). While I love the current penitent engine models dearly, I also have to acknowledge that they're a pain to put together and paint, and the dreadknight design is too perfect a match for me to believe they won't save themselves some work and do a dreadknight style penitent engine.

The exorcist seems like another candidate for renewal simply because the metal/plastic hybrid is annoyingly heavy and fragile, though I doubt it will be "huge" just because the rule to date is that sisters vehicles follow the Rhino chassis.

A fighter or fighter/bomber? The fluff is fragmentary and subject to being rewritten, but isn't there somethign about the Sororitas having to rely on the Imperial Navy for that kind of thing because of the decree passive? If they do get a flier I hope to god it doesn't look like the Storm Raven (while it looks like something space marines would fly around in, that aesthetic is less appealing in planes than ground vehicles, particularly when you have the valkyrie for comparison).

A predator analog (based on current patterns, they'd use a predator rather than a lehman russ design) with an IG Devil Dog's melta cannon as a gun option?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maybe Sisters will get Valkyries or something, every army seems to have some sort of flier and Inquisitorial Valks are in the IA books so maybe an Ecclesiarical Valk is in order?
Full of Inferno Cannons instead of lascannons and exorcist missiles instead of missile pods?


----------



## Midge913

MadCowCrazy said:


> Maybe Sisters will get Valkyries or something, every army seems to have some sort of flier and Inquisitorial Valks are in the IA books so maybe an Ecclesiarical Valk is in order?
> Full of Inferno Cannons instead of lascannons and exorcist missiles instead of missile pods?


Now that would be cool!


----------



## Dagmire

I dont know if this has been posted up but the sisters are not in their case at warhammer world.......


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## SilverTabby

Many armies are not in their cases in WHW, as those are the figures used in all GW photography. Plus White Dwarf and repro are utterly rubbish at taking them back. There are frequently multiple trays of figures just left in the camera room until someone else needs them and will put them away instead. 

That said, have there been any SoB articles recently? The timing is right for either WD photography for an august release, or more likely the initial meetings for colour section discussions for a januaryish release.


----------



## hungryugolino

That's it. GW is finally squatting them. From now on, Sisters will only be mention as Grey Knight cosmetic products.


----------



## Azezel

SilverTabby said:


> Many armies are not in their cases in WHW, as those are the figures used in all GW photography. Plus White Dwarf and repro are utterly rubbish at taking them back.


Indeedy - which means someone is or has been taking photos of them.

Which would be odd if the new codex and plastic models are coming any minute now - but would make sense for a White Dwarf update.

Hell, it's starting to sound almost plausable.

Either that or the new Necron codex will be announced with a White Dwarf battle report called _Even Bigger Massacre at Sanctuary 102_. Can't rule that out.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Indeedy - which means someone is or has been taking photos of them.


Or that they are being used in a studio game, or that they are being cleaned, or that the paint is being touched up


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dagmire said:


> I dont know if this has been posted up but the sisters are not in their case at warhammer world.......


Have you just come from there? Are you going back there soon? Could you then ask for the Sisters models. Say that you are thinking about starting an army but you want to see what the models look like first. Maybe they will bring you to a back room full of shiny plastic minis.
Suddenly everything goes dark and you wake up like this:


----------



## SilverTabby

Bindi Baji said:


> Or that they are being used in a studio game, or that they are being cleaned, or that the paint is being touched up


Game, possibly. Again though, with such an old codex it'll only be a game if they are doing it for WD for a release or the like. Playtesting tends to get mostly done with personal collections, the painters get very annoyed when playtesters chip or break the display models. The most likely case is that they were taken out so the initial meetings deciding the colour section and such things can happen. Layout shots, ascertaining how many of each figure that isn't being redone is available, whether they want to do an entirely new colour scheme for the new release...

Cleaned? Doesn't happen. The shelves get dusted, the figures are taken out and put back in again. Too many broken figures resulted from the one cleaner who decided they were going to dust the figures too. They only get actually dusted when photos are taken, and even then not always :wink:

Touching up the paint? Again, only happens when photography is about to happen, and only if the damage is really noticable, and 'Eavy Metal happen to have some time spare in their crazy schedules. Otherwise WD / repro just touch it up with photoshop (if they notice the damage at all).


----------



## Akhara'Keth

MadCowCrazy said:


> Have you just come from there? Are you going back there soon? Could you then ask for the Sisters models. Say that you are thinking about starting an army but you want to see what the models look like first. Maybe they will bring you to a back room full of shiny plastic minis.
> Suddenly everything goes dark and you wake up like this:


Made my day :goodpost:


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> Or that they are being used in a studio game, or that they are being cleaned, or that the paint is being touched up


'Because Games Workshop clearly care about the Sisters' public image,' he mutters, sarcastically.



SilverTabby said:


> whether they want to do an entirely new colour scheme for the new release...


That's the second time you've mentioned colour schemes. Something up?

I've always thought it odd that Our Martyred Lady is the Iconic Order, when the Ebon Chalice seem to have far more right to the top spot.

(The Valorous Heart are my favourites, but their colour scheme would never work as iconic Order.)


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> 'Because Games Workshop clearly care about the Sisters' public image,' he mutters, sarcastically.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the second time you've mentioned colour schemes. Something up?
> 
> I've always thought it odd that Our Martyred Lady is the Iconic Order, when the Ebon Chalice seem to have far more right to the top spot.
> 
> (The Valorous Heart are my favourites, but their colour scheme would never work as iconic Order.)


Ebon Chalice colors are too close to Black Templars, perhaps.


----------



## SilverTabby

I don't necesserily mention colour schemes because GW will change them. I mention it because before every colour section planning meeting, they assess the range as a whole, and whether using an existing scheme and adding to it is the best plan or whether they do a whole new scheme and use the older ones as 'back-ups'. After all, the timeline has moved on a bit since 3rd ed, so there is potential for new Orders to have been founded, or an existing one to have gone through some reason to have altered it's colours...


----------



## Bindi Baji

SilverTabby said:


> Cleaned? Doesn't happen.
> 
> Touching up the paint? Again, only happens when photography is about to happen


I wasn't saying any suggestions were likely as such, just possible, 
and yes, they do clean display models at warhammer world, 
they have a very low powered air blower gizmo that removes dust although I have no idea how often it's done.


----------



## SilverTabby

Bindi Baji said:


> I wasn't saying any suggestions were likely as such, just possible,
> and yes, they do clean display models at warhammer world,
> they have a very low powered air blower gizmo that removes dust although I have no idea how often it's done.


That's new then, because it was policy before that no-one barring actual Studio staff were to do anything except move the figures (*) due to the excessive damages that always happened and got dumped back in 'Eavy Metal to get fixed. And given how many of them are plastic and resin, I can see any air-blowing gizmo doing more harm than good... :wink:

(*)Of course, that is the figures upstairs in the Museum. The ones downstairs are all staff and store figures, rather than Studio ones.


----------



## Bindi Baji

SilverTabby said:


> And given how many of them are plastic and resin, I can see any air-blowing gizmo doing more harm than good... :wink:


so what you're saying is something less powerful then a mini fan would damage the models or the paintwork?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is a thought that hit me today. Since GK vehicle pilots can use psychic powers that should mean Sister pilots can use Acts of Faith?
I think this would make just as much sense, if not more, as GK pilots using psychic powers.

There would have to be some new powers of course, I guess +S and Divine Guidance are the only ones that would work right now. Maybe the Inv one would give a 4+ cover save or some such.

Thoughts?


----------



## Tahiri

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a thought that hit me today. Since GK vehicle pilots can use psychic powers that should mean Sister pilots can use Acts of Faith?
> I think this would make just as much sense, if not more, as GK pilots using psychic powers.
> 
> There would have to be some new powers of course, I guess +S and Divine Guidance are the only ones that would work right now. Maybe the Inv one would give a 4+ cover save or some such.
> 
> Thoughts?


 

But then you would have to get into is the vehicle always faithful, does it add to faith points at the start of the game, etc.


----------



## Azezel

Hell, if I got a faith point every time one of my Rhinos exploded I'd need to buy another box of fleur-de-lys counters just to keep track of them.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it might have significant consequences if faith otherwise remains as-is.

As I recal, there was rumour of GK getting a +2 AV vehicle power - did that ever pan out?

(Speaking of GK vehicle powers, last night I fought the new GK and stunned a Land Raider - the other player attempted to counter it with Fortitude, got Perils and stunned himself again. I thought that was funny.)

If not, that might work as an Act of Faith. With AV13/13/12 there's a chance my Immolator might last beyond turn 2...

Also, an Immolator with TL Heavy Bolters, Blessed Ammunition and Divine Guidance would be a major headache for bad guys camped out in ruins or at the enemy's home objective. Although if Retributors get Blessed Ammunition that'd be even better!


What I think is necessary is giving Sororitas vehicles the Shield of Faith. What with all the anti-vehicle psychic powers out there these days it's starting to look like a legitimate liability for an army that has no psychic defence other than Shield of Faith.


----------



## SilverTabby

Bindi Baji said:


> so what you're saying is something less powerful then a mini fan would damage the models or the paintwork?


No, I'm saying it would blow them around and not do anything to touch the dust on them, leading to having to untangle the figures from each other which is where the damage occurs. :wink: 
I'm sensing here that you've never had to actually clean Museum display figures prior to photography. A half-inch flat brush is what's most commonly used, it's about the only thing that will actually shift the dust. This isn't your common, gently-blow-it-off household dust we're talking about...

Anyway, this is veering dangerously off topic, even given the Sisters are one of the dustiest armies up there. Let's get back to the wishful thinking...

I very much want plastic Seraphim. I own about 3 dozen of the metal models, and hate trying to get them to stand up with a passion. They are gorgeous, but so impractical as to get left out of most of my army lists simply because they fall over all the time.


----------



## Azezel

I filled my bases with putty and glued 2p coins to the bottom - it keeps them upright most of the time.

My problem with Seraphim are the very thin stalks that bend easily and snap when I try to bend them back again.

If I ever get plastic Seraphim every one of them will be standing still, both feet flat on her base.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As for vehicles and faith points, you could make it so they are always faithful but never add faith points to the army. Problem solved, then again maybe GW want's to sell the new Sister vehicles so make it so you get 1 faith point per vehicle and another one when it's destroyed. Rhino cost goes down to 10pt, Immolator 35, and repressor 25 and they can be fielded as fast attack and take up no force org slot. Hey, GW needs to sell em Rhino chassis....

As for cleaning models, I'm sure you could take an airbrush or one of those air cans you use to clean out dust from your computer and blow off some dust that way. Quick, effective and shouldn't damage the paintjobs. Then again I heard they dont use sealers since that dulls the paintjobs and if they use pigments you would blow em all off the models...

I really hope they make the Immolator a bit more useful, side sponsons at the minimum. 9 S5 shots that ignore cover saves isn't that scary, ap1 or maybe rending on 6s and you still only get like 1-2 on average. I really hope they keep to the theme of sisters being short-medium range and ignore cover saves. Blessed ammo for all bolt based weapons across the army, addition of assault cannons and auto cannons for Retributors and Immolators would fit in perfectly.

Yes yes, I know I've said this a hundred times before but I'm hoping whoever is writing the codex might take a peak at my thread and get some inspiration. Heck, I'd pay GW 1000€ if they allowed me to write the codex!


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yes yes, I know I've said this a hundred times before but I'm hoping whoever is writing the codex might take a peak at my thread and get some inspiration. Heck, I'd pay GW 1000€ if they allowed me to write the codex!


*Gets ready to start raging at MadCowCrazy for all little things he doesn't like in the new sister codex*


----------



## Bindi Baji

SilverTabby said:


> No, I'm saying it would blow them around and not do anything to touch the dust on them, leading to having to untangle the figures from each other which is where the damage occurs


you are thinking of something far, far, far, etc, more powerful then what I am talking about, 
anyway as you state this is indeed very far off topic


----------



## Tahiri

MadCowCrazy said:


> I really hope they make the Immolator a bit more useful, side sponsons at the minimum. 9 S5 shots that ignore cover saves isn't that scary, ap1 or maybe rending on 6s and you still only get like 1-2 on average. I really hope they keep to the theme of sisters being short-medium range and ignore cover saves. Blessed ammo for all bolt based weapons across the army, addition of assault cannons and auto cannons for Retributors and Immolators would fit in perfectly.


 
As I said before in this thread or another thread I can see that easily being the case, nearly all Grey Knights can take "Psybolt Ammo" so I am sure most sisters well have the option to upgrade to "Blessed Ammo." Now having all units with the old rule for “Blessed Ammo” to ignore cover saves as well as possibly make them AP1 is probably a bit to overpowered, so they could change “Blessed Ammo” to knock 1-2 off of the cover save instead or just make it the exact same as “Psybolt Ammo” by adding one to the strength, of course I would rather it have the anti cover save.


Is there much stuff in 40k that reduces saves, or is that mostly a Fantasy mechanic?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There are very few things that reduces saves, afaik there is nothing that reduces armour or inv save but tau can reduce cover saves by using marker lights.
There are tons of stuff that ignore it though, power weapons and ap2 ignore all armour, template and some special bombardment ammo ignores cover save, GK used to ignore inv saves with all their special gear but no longer do so. The c'tan phase sword on the callidus used to ignore everything but is now just a pw weapon that causes instant death and I'm sure all Necron wargear with the c'tan phase weapon rule will be the same.

A few editions ago Ork sluggas used to reduce armour saves by -1 so space marines had 4+ armour saves vs them. As of now I can't think of anything that reduces armour or inv saves and only tau marker lights for cover saves.


----------



## Azezel

Tahiri said:


> Now having all units with the old rule for “Blessed Ammo” to ignore cover saves as well as possibly make them AP1 is probably a bit to overpowered,


The obvious answer is to limit who may take it. Remember, the Militant Sisterhood is a massive organization, millions strong (at least) - at that scale you can't go handing out your best kit like halloween candy.

I have to imagine that blessing ammunition is more involved than having a priest sign the Aquilla over every munitions lorry that drives past.

I imagine a monestary somewhere where monks hand engrave individual shells. Inscribing each with long prayers in letters too small to read with the naked eye. Then they are anointed with sacred oils and passed seven times through the fumes of three different incenses in a clockwise motion.

That's just how the Imperium opperate, and there will never be enough blessed shells for every Battle Sister.

Characters and Celestians certainly would have a legitimate claim to Blessed Ammuntion. Retributors and Dominions* are possibilities. I really cannot see it being issued to Battle Sisters or Serraphim, though.


*Speaking of Dominions, does anyone else think it's possible that they could come with Storm Bolters as standard? As in, every Dominion has a SB, and up to four may swap their SB for flamer/meltagun?

It'd make an effective poor-man's Retributor squad and free uup heavy-support slots nicely.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

At the least I would expect the Repressor to come with Blessed ammo caches giving blessed ammo to all passengers. It is a riot control vehicle after all so it would make sense for it to bring supplies. Maybe a 6" Blessed ammo bubble or something like that could work? Nah, that would be stupid...


----------



## elektra

What about an act of faith that can make ammunition blessed but when rolling to wound use the victims leadership as a kind of test of their loyalty to the emperor.Say leadership 8 is a 4 to wound leadership 7 is a 3 and so on.No armour or cover saves aloud but invulnerable can be used.Obviously if you get wounded you die unless you have eternal warrior,such is the righteous zeal of the Sisters firing at them.Any thoughts?


----------



## mahavira

Depending on how radically acts of faith are changed, blessed bolter ammo could just make the bolters rending full time as an upgrade to celestians, seraphim and characters.

As to dominions, rather than storm bolters as standard, I'd thought of them having a shorter range assault bolter (range 12 or 18 assault 2 or something) with a sarissa attached and frag and krak grenades (or phosphorous grenades if they come up with a good rule for em).


----------



## elektra

I like the ide of sarissas but strength 3 just isn't good enough against neary every army you come up against.If they could make sarissas strength 4 on the charge along with the rerolls that may balance things out abit,but in a prolonged melee the sisters would still suck.


----------



## Necrosis

Give Celestians 2 attacks, furious charge, sarissas and make sarissas work all the time instead of just the charge.


----------



## Grogbart

How about we get a separate Act of Faith which grants the ignore cover ability and instead make Blessed Ammunition equipment, that's neccessary to perform all the shooty Acts of Faith, avalible to troops and vehicles?

As for Faithpoints. I would prefer getting rid of them and make Acts of Faith avalible anytime but introduce a little malus to failing Tests of Faith (or similar to Psyker Tests, only some fails), like failing Divine Guidance results in shooting at BS 3, or such.

I sure hope Celestians, backed by appropriate Acts of Faith, will be able to kick at least some ass in melee. In that case I'd take Chainsword and Boltpistol instead of Bolter mounted Sarissa. But I will be happily surprised by some new rules for the Sarissa to make it an equally valued option.
Making Celestians have two attacks, I'm all with you though, Necrosis!

Suggestions on Phosphor grenades.
Replacing the standard equipped frag grenades as an option they could simply count as defensive grenades or make enemy assault moves count as being made through difficult terrain.

Speaking of furious charge. Would anyone mind replacing the Acts 'Hand of the Emperor' and 'The Passion' with standard equipped krag grenades and one Act that grants the furious charge bonuses?


----------



## Necrosis

The fact that you lose a faith point seems to be already a big enough cost for failing it. As once your out of faith points you can't get them back unless you lose a squad or something.

To be honest an act of faith should give you something better then furious charge.


----------



## Grogbart

@ Necrosis

Sorry, misunderstanding here. I was talking about dropping the whole Faithpoints system, in a sense that you'd basically have infinite Faithpoints available. And the malus was to prevent misuse of Acts.
The reason I suggest this is, that I hate the differing values of certain units depending on how big your army is (= how many faithpoints you have).
As an Example: I like using a Canoness with jumppack, cloak and holy weapon.
In a game of 1500 - 2000 points I can easily spent two turns of Spirit of the Martyr and let her jump straight towards the enemy with enough Faithpoints left to cope with upcoming close combats. 
In a small game with only four Faithpoints to begin with, I can't afford that despite having paid the same amount of points on her!

Second I meant an Act of Faith that just grants +1 Strength and +1 Initiative, ignore the furious charge stuff. All alone, still not a great Idea. I was too much into all the suggested changes to Acts of Faith, that were posted here, especially the 'combining Acts makes a harder test of Faith' thing. So sorry on that one, too!


----------



## elektra

Acts of faith are an integral part of the way SOBs perform.As we all know you are pretty well screwed if you can't get them to work during a game at cucial stages of a game.Now it has been stated by various sources that faith,rightly or wrongly,will be drastically altered in the way it is used.The fact is unless Sisters are upgraded to marine stats,which won't happen,they will be canon fodder for every other army out there,therefore we absolutely need some sort of system to balance the playing field and give us a fighting chance.This is where faith comes in,and the only fair and easy way that i can see of getting any acts off is by means of passing a leadership test.Every other test that is used in the game is based on leadership and i am pretty sure that a basic vet superior has strong enough leadership(faith)to be able to do this.This would also stop any arguments dead in their tracks about how faith is granted and any new players can grasp it straight away.
Now i have no idea about any changes that may be forthcoming but we absolutely need a form of Spirit of the Martyr with all the power weapon and ignore armour saves wielding nutters that are being fielded from all the recent upgraded armies and probably those in the future as well.And not to forget al the ap 1-2-3 weapons that are becoming quite common as well.
As for Divine Guidance,i have more arguments using this act then any other due to other players not agreeing on its use.Why not just give the option of buying this upgrade at a reasonable price for each squad and be done with it.It's not overpowered as you still need a 6 to use it and they don't pop up that often.We need something to stop those bloody terminators!!
The Passion could be a great act but again at strength 3 going first in combat and needing a 5 to wound most things is a waste of a faith point so this brings back the need for that extra strength point from somewhere.
I know Dark Eldar are srength 3 and a great combat army but look at the amount of attacks a wych squad can possibly throw out on the charge compared to Battle ssister squad(53-21)Not really an even playing field is it.
Maybe they will tweak the Repentia(i sincerely hope so)give Seraphim a strength bonus or give us a new cc unit that can actually survive and dish out some hurt.
Just a few thoughts that have been going around my head while playing games these last few weeks.


----------



## andrewm9

If I were redesigning the Sisters I would just give Seraphim Furious Charge on top of their Hit and Run. For Celestians I would give them 2 attacks or counterattack (or both) and make Bolters with Sarissas Assault 2, range 12" for shooting and +1 Strength in close combat. Naturally both units would get frag and krak grenades.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As for the Act of Faith system I believe I have found one of the best ways to do this system when thinking up my Ordo Sepulturum codex. I haven't spoken about it because I want to send this system to the person writing the codex but have been unsure who is actually writing the codex. Rumour points to Cruddace right? Jervis has also been suggested. I'm going to post the design to them since I dont believe they read much of their emails, they must be getting thousands per day bitching and moaning about the shitty codex designs of late so I doubt they more than glance if they simply dont delete the emails outright.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I want to send this system to the person writing the codex but have been unsure who is actually writing the codex. Rumour points to Cruddace right? Jervis has also been suggested. I'm going to post the design to them since I dont believe they read much of their emails,


They quite simply *do not read those emails*.

The first thing a new author learns is that you *never read fan submissions*.

It opens the author up to a whole world of legal hurt when - just by chance - you write something similar to a fan suggestion, and that fan sues you.

One plagarism suit can cripple an author for the rest of his career.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Gw does have this disclaimer though

SUBMISSIONS
Any notes, e-mails, online messages or bulletin board postings, ideas, suggestions, concepts, designs, or other material submitted to any physical GW company address or to any web site owned or controlled by GW and/or to any e-mail addresses contained in or on those web sites ("GW Web Sites") will become the property of GW throughout the world and GW shall be entitled to use the material for any type of use forever, including in any media whether now known or hereafter devised. When you submit any material to any physical GW company address or any GW Web Sites, you agree, offer, warrant, and represent, both explicitly and tacitly (and GW accepts) that you are assigning all intellectual property rights in that material to GW and that GW has the right to use that material at any time entirely in its own discretion for whatsoever purpose including for commercial, promotional, and advertising purposes without any obligation (including any financial obligation) to you now or at any time in the future. You waive and relinquish any rights, including "moral rights," that may exist in any content to the furthest extent permissible by law and agree not to assert any rights over that content. We are afraid that in order to protect ourselves legally, this is the only way we can operate. If you are unhappy with this policy, then please do not post or send any material to GW.

GW is not responsible for any material posted on any of our forums. You agree not to use this site to:

- Publish, post, distribute, or otherwise disseminate content that is libellous, defamatory, that invades privacy, or is obscene, pornographic, abusive, harassing, or otherwise unlawful or objectionable or which infringes on any intellectual property or other rights of any entity or person;

- Threaten, harass, stalk, abuse others, or otherwise cause distress or unwanted attention to any person;

- Upload files that contain a virus or corrupted data;

- Engage in any unlawful purpose, or use this site in a manner that is contrary to any law or regulation;

- Promote or encourage any illegal activity;

- Interfere with this site's availability to other users;

- Transmit advertising, promotional materials, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or make any commercial use of this site;

- Impersonate another person or site personnel, modify without permission, or violate the Terms of Use or the site's posted rules.

You agree to indemnify GW and its directors, employees, agents, distributors, and affiliates from and against any and all third party claims, demands, liabilities, costs, or expenses, including reasonable legal fees resulting from your breach of any of the foregoing agreements, representations, and warranties.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> It opens the author up to a whole world of legal hurt when - just by chance - you write something similar to a fan suggestion, and that fan sues you.
> 
> One plagarism suit can cripple an author for the rest of his career.


Does making not reading fan material a policy avoid this issue?


----------



## Azezel

Yes.

When he gets taken to court he can produce a pile of never opened envelopes. He can demonstrate that all of his emails are filtered by his publishher long before they reach him, that he doesn't have an account on related forums (at least, he will claim that he doesn't and if he does it'll be anonymous).

Of course it's impossible to absolutely prove any idea original - but if the author can demonstrate a standing and effective policy of not reading fan submissions he can prove originality _beyond reasonable doubt_, which is what the courts demand.

We're living in a litigious age. Feels bad, man.


----------



## Grogbart

Would be a damn tough job to write a Codex without using anything, that has ever been suggested on any forum!


----------



## TheSpore

if im not mistaken the material has to be copy righted to officially be stolen. Another thing if you are sent something like mad cow's suggestions on the afith thing he actually giving consent for the original work to be used by GW therefore he cannot sue GW for he has no case due to giving up his work consentivly


----------



## Azezel

Not So.

*I am probably* not a lawyer!*

In the UK, you automatically own the copyright to any idea the moment you reduce it to tangible form (I.E. write it down, this includes posting it on the 'net).

And just because you then send that written thing to someone else does not grant them a liscence to use your intellectual property.


Long story short - if MCC sends his idea for all Sisters to cost one point and be armed with vulcan megabolters - it will never get past GW's admin staff.

If it somehow did, and ended up being used on the codex, not only could MCC sue for royalties, _he'd be right to do so_ - since Games Workshop would be making money off of his work.


*On the internet, no-one knows your a cat.


----------



## TheSpore

sorry let me re-state this properly so that it is understood...

Plagirism is taking another's work and proclaiming it be yours.

Now if one is to take the original work and rephrase or reword that work or even in the case of a picture change the colors used in the pic. it has now become that person's work, But credit must be given where credit is due... It should also be known that if the creator has given his verbal or written consent to allow another to freely use the material then that person is not legaly bound and cannot be sued for plagirism.

This is why artist such as P-Diddy were able to produce albums using others music since they simply changed the words. Otherwise known as sampling. 

On a another note in the case of music distribution an artist is allowed to cover or perfom other people's songs as long as they are not recorded and sold without the consent of the original creator of the work. A good case of this would be the band Dope Who covered and recorded the song f#%k the police. Originally Ice Cube did not give them permission to use the song on an album so therfore that is why when you look at older copies of the album track 8 or 9 (i can't remember) was not listed. But they were legaly able to perfom the song in there concerts. 

So to go back into the premisis of Mad Cow's suggestions. In this case 1. it was not copy righted nor patented. and 2. By e-mailing GW his ideas he has given them the permission to use those ideas in therefore they can legally now claim that the work is their's


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Not So.
> 
> *I am probably* not a lawyer!*
> 
> In the UK, you automatically own the copyright to any idea the moment you reduce it to tangible form (I.E. write it down, this includes posting it on the 'net).
> 
> And just because you then send that written thing to someone else does not grant them a liscence to use your intellectual property.
> 
> 
> Long story short - if MCC sends his idea for all Sisters to cost one point and be armed with vulcan megabolters - it will never get past GW's admin staff.
> 
> If it somehow did, and ended up being used on the codex, not only could MCC sue for royalties, _he'd be right to do so_ - since Games Workshop would be making money off of his work.
> 
> 
> *On the internet, no-one knows your a cat.


You are correct to an extent. The key word here is SUGGESTION...
If MCC send this ideas and says this a suggestion for the new SoB codex then GW can legaly use. Now copyright laws may deffer from where you live compared to where I live in the US. Here there are two ways to do it one is to officially do it, which i will be honest I don't remember how offiicially it is done but I once knew from back when I was in a band. the other is know as the poor man's copyright which is where you certify mail your self a copy of the work and you do not open it until it is time to prove a copyrright infringment has taken place.

The problem with plagirism is that it has many gray areas and legal wording can make and break the case of plagirism.


----------



## Azezel

I couldn't speculate on how copyright law works in the US, except that I do know there are differences.

(One difference I do know is Fair Use, which allows the reproduction of small parts of a larger work. Sampling songs may fall under that, I could not say. British Copyright law has _no_ Fair Use.)

However, the long and sort of it is that, just by writing his idea down, MCC _has_ copyrighted it so far as British law (the kind Games Workshop operate under) is concerned.

Sending that idea to GW with the intention of them using it does _not_ constitute a legal licencing of that copyrighted work.

Depending on how Games Workshop were to present and attribute the idea, it may be plagiarism, copyright infringement or both. Changing the wording doesn't make a jot of difference, if the idea remains the same. It's the idea that's copyrighted in this case, not the words.

The only way around that would be to legally licence the idea from MCC - which, is not likely, even if MCC didn't ask for payment.

Or he could release his idea under a free licence - but those licences generally require reproduced works to maintain the same conditions of the licence, which GW would be unwilling (to say the least!) to do.

But as I say, all of the above is academic since most authors actively work to avoid fan submissions just to escape the legal maze. It's pretty much the first thing a publisher will tell a new author. For the love of god, do not read the ideas fans send you.


Back on topic?


----------



## hungryugolino

There will never be a Battle Sisters update and, if there is, we will sincerely wish that there wasn't.


----------



## TheSpore

hungryugolino said:


> There will never be a Battle Sisters update and, if there is, we will sincerely wish that there wasn't.


eh, its already been stated the sisters are getting a codex

anyway to end the copyright debate it is very clear that just plain old works differnt where you are compared to here and well why should we honsetly let our heads spin about this anyway, thanks for a fun argument though


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I posted this on the last page but you all seems to have missed it, or is it simply not worth anything from a legal point of view? Is it simply there just to trick people into thinking anything they send to GW they lose all rights to?

Gw does have this disclaimer though

SUBMISSIONS
Any notes, e-mails, online messages or bulletin board postings, ideas, suggestions, concepts, designs, or other material submitted to any physical GW company address or to any web site owned or controlled by GW and/or to any e-mail addresses contained in or on those web sites ("GW Web Sites") will become the property of GW throughout the world and GW shall be entitled to use the material for any type of use forever, including in any media whether now known or hereafter devised. When you submit any material to any physical GW company address or any GW Web Sites, you agree, offer, warrant, and represent, both explicitly and tacitly (and GW accepts) that you are assigning all intellectual property rights in that material to GW and that GW has the right to use that material at any time entirely in its own discretion for whatsoever purpose including for commercial, promotional, and advertising purposes without any obligation (including any financial obligation) to you now or at any time in the future. You waive and relinquish any rights, including "moral rights," that may exist in any content to the furthest extent permissible by law and agree not to assert any rights over that content. We are afraid that in order to protect ourselves legally, this is the only way we can operate. If you are unhappy with this policy, then please do not post or send any material to GW.

GW is not responsible for any material posted on any of our forums. You agree not to use this site to:

- Publish, post, distribute, or otherwise disseminate content that is libellous, defamatory, that invades privacy, or is obscene, pornographic, abusive, harassing, or otherwise unlawful or objectionable or which infringes on any intellectual property or other rights of any entity or person;

- Threaten, harass, stalk, abuse others, or otherwise cause distress or unwanted attention to any person;

- Upload files that contain a virus or corrupted data;

- Engage in any unlawful purpose, or use this site in a manner that is contrary to any law or regulation;

- Promote or encourage any illegal activity;

- Interfere with this site's availability to other users;

- Transmit advertising, promotional materials, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or make any commercial use of this site;

- Impersonate another person or site personnel, modify without permission, or violate the Terms of Use or the site's posted rules.

You agree to indemnify GW and its directors, employees, agents, distributors, and affiliates from and against any and all third party claims, demands, liabilities, costs, or expenses, including reasonable legal fees resulting from your breach of any of the foregoing agreements, representations, and warranties.


----------



## Azezel

Not being a lawyer (or a cat) - I cannot comment on the legality of that agreement - except on one point.



GW said:


> You waive and relinquish any rights, including "moral rights," that may exist in any content to the furthest extent permissible by law and agree not to assert any rights over that content.


Under British law there is no provision for ever transferring one's moral rights. You can choose not to enforce them, but nothing can take them away from you.

I have no idea if that agreement would stand up in court, most of it probably would, GW do have lawyers. But instinct tells me it's mostly designed to stop people from suing (and stop them from submitting things, come to think of it).


----------



## elektra

so to cut to the chase what ideas for faith were/are you going to send in.If you post it here then it becomes public knowledge and write your own disclaier and a note to any GW employees that this idea is meant for the writer of the new SOB codex.
On the other hand i did write a leter to Jervis outlining my concerns for the Sisters and yes i did get a reply.So someone reads what is sent in and possibly takes note of what is beng said.


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## MadCowCrazy

Problem is if I post it online and it gets spread around I think GW would be more inclined to ignore it?

I'm going to try both email and sending by snail mail.
Does anyone have Robin Cruddaces email? What about Jervis Johnsons email? Maybe he could forward it to whoever is writing the codex?


----------



## TheSpore

elektra said:


> so to cut to the chase what ideas for faith were/are you going to send in.If you post it here then it becomes public knowledge and write your own disclaier and a note to any GW employees that this idea is meant for the writer of the new SOB codex.
> On the other hand i did write a leter to Jervis outlining my concerns for the Sisters and yes i did get a reply.So someone reads what is sent in and possibly takes note of what is beng said.


Yeah GW tends to care somewhat about customers I sent an email a while back trying to dispel the old dicontinue rumour and customer support actually mailed me back the very next day explaining it all to me just that tehy couldn't let me know anything about release dates


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Most waivers of rights are as someone already said, just a smokescreen to prevent some lawsuits. Weither or not this one has any actual legal standing I can't tell you. 

However, Blizzard has a similar one, and yet has settled some such lawsuits out of court. Which seems to indicate that such strong and extreme disclaimers are at the very least a grey legal area, if not outright horse puckey.

On Faith:

I'm sure GW has something in mind already, as one of the first sisters rumors to come out was that it would be changed. 

Now we know alot changed in the process of grey knights or at least alot of things weren't quite what they appeared to be as the rumormongers had a few things confused, 2+ armor saves came from staves rather than artificer armor, and this was also coupled with confusion over the aegis special rule "aegis armor"...but we've had nothing so specific about faith.


----------



## Grogbart

Please, someone tell me, it's not the case, that posting ideas here is one of the best ways to ensure none of them is ever used in any codex!


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## SilverTabby

For one, if you are writing something using GW's IP, then it legally can be used by them in any way they please as it's _their IP, not yours._ If you send it to them, they can legally use it as it's theirs anyway, you just worded it differently. 

As for posting here making things not get used - that's rubbish too. They aren't going to say "woah there, someone else had the same idea we did. We'll have to change it now because someone else saying it makes it automatically bad..."


----------



## hungryugolino

If that were the case, you would see a lot more cries for Matt Ward to write every codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Updated the Predictions section based on the latest rumours.

Predictions Section

1 Year Prognosis
2011
May : Tomb Kings 100%
June : Dark Eldar 2nd Wave 100%
July : Fantasy Storm of Magic 100%
August : Necrons
September : Ogre Kingdoms
October : Sisters of Battle?
November : Knights of Bretonnia
December : Nothing as usual

Summer of Fliers (Wartorn Skies?), Tyranid Wave 2, plastic Pathfinders and Vespids are rumoured release candidates for 2011, but where?
Bindi Baji: Necron September release/"Before October"
ghost21: Necron August release
ghost21: I do have it on authority necrons are way before haloween thats when ogres are pegged in 
Warmongergameday: Q4 Bretonnian Knights Link


----------



## AlexHolker

On the topic of submissions...

- Copyright law does not protect concepts, it protects works. If GW stole your idea to give Battle Sisters VMBs, you could not sue them for copyright infringement.

- If someone produces a derivative work based on your own work, they still retain the copyright for their additions. GW can't just scour the internet for 40k fanfic and republish it without permission, for example. Even if the derivative work is found to infringe your copyright, they might not be able to continue distributing it, but neither will you.

When I tried submitting some ideas for the Sisters of Battle, the way I did it was to send a letter to their head office, with "Design Studio" after the address, and explicitly gave permission to use anything they liked in the next codex. Unfortunately I cannot confirm that it reached its destination, as I did not ask them to reply.


----------



## Azezel

Who is saying Sisters in October, MCC?

It seems really unlikely, unless it's a mere White Dwarf thing - which also seems unlikely.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It's the only month I can fit it into this year as GW has never afaik released 2 40k releases 2months in a row.

This is the reason I put the ? after it, allot of people are saying Sisters will see their release this year and October is the only month I could fit them into that made sense.

Some interesting rumours 
Does this mean the Summer of Fliers release?


ghost21 said:


> in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo


Here is the new line up, makes ALLOT more sense now...

Predictions Section

1 Year Prognosis
2011
May : Tomb Kings 100%
June : Dark Eldar 2nd Wave 100%
July : Fantasy Storm of Magic 100%
August : Necrons
September : Mystery Box (Summer of Fliers? aka Wartorn Skies?)
October : Ogre Kingdoms
November : Sisters of Battle?
December : Nothing as usual

Summer of Fliers (Wartorn Skies?), Tyranid Wave 2, plastic Pathfinders and Vespids are rumoured release candidates for 2011, but where?
10/04/2011 - Bindi Baji: Necron September release/"Before October"
18/04/2011 - ghost21: Necron August release
24/04/2011 - ghost21: I do have it on authority necrons are way before haloween thats when ogres are pegged in 
26/04/2011 - Warmongergameday: Q4 Bretonnian Knights Link
28/04/2011 - ghost21: in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo


----------



## Kettu

Sorry, but just to add my lovely cynicism (Read: Realism ) to this list;
Weren't people talking about Black Templar being before Sisters and/or this year, just a month ago?

Also, from a redshirt (*I KNOW!* But hear me out), who is back from his European holiday allegedly was in Warhammer World and got a chance to speak to one of the Design staff.
Allegedly, Tau, Sisters and Marines (He didn't specify what colour) are all currently up in the air about what the order is and that they would just play it all by ear for the next few months.
Ok, I can't stress the word Allegedly enough here but still, how many other times has a rumour opened with 'So I was in Warhammer World/Bugman's Bar the other day'?


----------



## Tahiri

I think the general and more popular scuttlebutt is that Black Templar are not going to show up until 6th edition and be in a new starter set with Eldar, which would come out fairly close to when the new MMO Dark Millennium comes out.


----------



## rasolyo

*And now...*

And now for something completely unrelated:

View attachment 12783


Can someone talented enough make a grey knight version of PROBLEM ASTARTES? Preferably in the style of hungryugolino's avatar. Wearing a sororitas skullcap.

View attachment 12782


I'll give you a cookie. And some rep, too. :grin:


----------



## Azezel

That would mean no LotR this year, MCC. Not impossible, but I'd still imagine there'd be something there.


----------



## SilverTabby

Kettu said:


> Sorry, but just to add my lovely cynicism (Read: Realism ) to this list;
> Weren't people talking about Black Templar being before Sisters and/or this year, just a month ago?
> 
> Also, from a redshirt (*I KNOW!* But hear me out), who is back from his European holiday allegedly was in Warhammer World and got a chance to speak to one of the Design staff.
> Allegedly, Tau, Sisters and Marines (He didn't specify what colour) are all currently up in the air about what the order is and that they would just play it all by ear for the next few months.
> Ok, I can't stress the word Allegedly enough here but still, how many other times has a rumour opened with 'So I was in Warhammer World/Bugman's Bar the other day'?


Given I was in Warhammer World on wednesday, talking with one of the Studio Staff (Chad, to be presise, who is lovely), I can safely say that anything they say that isn't "I can't confirm or deny that" is the recipient hearing what they want to hear from what was said :wink:

It really isn't worth their jobs to tell random staff members things. They may hint, but will never actually tell a random passer-by, even one who also works for GW, anything solid, or even necessarily accurate. There's this little thing in the contract that is called a NDC...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> That would mean no LotR this year, MCC. Not impossible, but I'd still imagine there'd be something there.


I know, this schedule just doesn't make sense, LotR usually gets one release a year at the least but I just can't fit it in.

We have all the way to July confirmed, Necrons said to be in August but then Tyranid 2nd wave, GK 2nd wave, Summer of Fliers, Sisters, Ok and Bretonnians all said to be this year, and ghost21s September mystery box which could be LotRs I guess but I think he hinted at a Specialist games box.
Where do you put it all in is the tricky question.

If we go all out it would look like this

July: Fantasy thing and WD Summer of Fliers
August: Necrons
September: Mystery Box, Tyranid and GK Wave 2
October: OK
November: Sisters of Battle
December: Bretonnians and whatever else is left.

Does this seem plausible? Looks too bunched up to me.

If Sisters are close to release I think my Faith System idea might be too late, will send it in on Monday anyway. Also sending this picture with the letter.
View attachment 12787


Once Sisters are released I will make a display board for Armies on Parade thing at Games Day where the Sisters literally beats the living shit out of Grey Knights!
Will have an Old School Canoness shove a burning Ecclesiarchy symbol up Ordans, "Champion" of the 4th Brotherhood, ass while other pour menstral blood all over him screaming "-YOU WANT OUR BLOOD?! HERE! TAKE IT!!".


----------



## xenobiotic

MadCowCrazy said:


> Once Sisters are released I will make a display board for Armies on Parade thing at Games Day where the Sisters literally beats the living shit out of Grey Knights!
> Will have an Old School Canoness shove a burning Ecclesiarchy symbol up Ordans, "Champion" of the 4th Brotherhood, ass while other pour menstral blood all over him screaming "-YOU WANT OUR BLOOD?! HERE! TAKE IT!!".


:laugh: You, sir, made my day!
And if you don't make that display I will!

Plastic sisters would most likely make me put everything else aside and go rampage (going bankrupt in the process).


----------



## Azezel

Well, we could fit LotR in if we removed Sisters from the lineup, and I still cannot seem them this year - I just cannot imagine how the models could be ready so soon.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Once Sisters are released I will make a display board for Armies on Parade thing at Games Day where the Sisters literally beats the living shit out of Grey Knights!


I really think (not to mention hope) that you did not mean to use the word 'literally' there, Old Man...


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Well, we could fit LotR in if we removed Sisters from the lineup, and I still cannot seem them this year - I just cannot imagine how the models could be ready so soon.


Well form what it seems to be is that the sisters and necrons have been under production at the same time just one is getting released befor ethe other. Its very possible that they give two more codexes out this year also LOTR can be realseased at anytime.


MadCowCrazy fixed broken quote code :crazy:


----------



## ashikenshin

Yeah that would be some daemonic shit to be living at all. And it would look very nasty if the sisters would be beating on it. Well, some people get off from weird stuff I guess 

I would very much hope to see the "sisters beating gk" diorama. Something else to look forward to.


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheSpore said:


> Well form what it seems to be is that the sisters and necrons have been under production at the same time just one is getting released befor ethe other. Its very possible that they give two more codexes out this year also LOTR can be realseased at anytime.


both were been in the background for a fair while but 'crons were physically started a fair while before sisters


----------



## TheSpore

Bindi Baji said:


> both were been in the background for a fair while but 'crons were physically started a fair while before sisters


Thats what I was assuming back when I started to dig into all the wild rumours I was startin to find.


----------



## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> If we go all out it would look like this
> 
> July: Fantasy thing and WD Summer of Fliers
> August: Necrons
> September: Mystery Box, Tyranid and GK Wave 2
> October: OK
> November: Sisters of Battle
> December: Bretonnians and whatever else is left.
> 
> Does this seem plausible? Looks too bunched up to me.


- The Mystery Box is supposed to be something like Space Hulk, so I think it's safe to say that a single item won't be the only release in a given month.

- GK really doesn't have anything except a Techmarine + Servitors plastic kit that could justify a proper second wave. More likely they'll get a Wave 1.5 with a handful of metal sculpts like the Dark Eldar did.

- Brettonians might be January, which would still fit with the rumours I've seen.

- The only other thing you're missing is the rumoured Space Wolves release with plastic Thunderwolves. Since the smart thing to do would have been to release the kit as soon as it was finished (to kill off the 3rd party sales which are poaching their customers), failing to do so would suggest they're saving it for a wave release.

There was also a rumour posted on Warseer that next financial year would see one book released per month. If so, it _should_ look too bunched up compared to most years.


----------



## Necrosis

I wonder if there will be a character that allows us to take Seraphims as troops?
*Wants to do an all Seraphim army!*


----------



## Bindi Baji

AlexHolker said:


> There was also a rumour posted on Warseer that next financial year would see one book released per month. If so, it _should_ look too bunched up compared to most years.


GW had intended to increase the rate of army books and codexes considerably from this year onwards, although even then it would not be anything like every month.

Unfortunately due to unforseen problems including the departure of a number of staff this won't be happening yet, well not quite anyway.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> I really think (not to mention hope) that you did not mean to use the word 'literally' there, Old Man...


OOOHHHH YES!!! I MEAN LITERALLY



Necrosis said:


> I wonder if there will be a character that allows us to take Seraphims as troops?
> *Wants to do an all Seraphim army!*


I'd like to do a Repentia based army with Sister Repentia as Troops and 9 or more Penitent Engines.



I book release each month would only happen if they did them in PDF or 30 page codicies and I dont think GW would be fair to charge for that unless it's like 5£ a dex and with O&G being hardback I doubt they would do something like this.


Anyone know where these are from?


----------



## TeDasCuen

MadCowCrazy said:


> Once Sisters are released I will make a display board for Armies on Parade thing at Games Day where the Sisters literally beats the living shit out of Grey Knights!


YES! NICE! :so_happy:

And perhaps a GK leader brutally busted with a shoulder name: "_Ward_"?


----------



## hungryugolino

Eldar guardian conversions.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'd like to do a Repentia based army with Sister Repentia as Troops and 9 or more Penitent Engines.


Repentia troops?

Y'know, thinking about it, I cannot imagine a single thing less fluffy than a squad of Repentia camped out at an objective while their sisters die on the front lines.

And that's not even taking into account how _rare_ repentia are.

Mind you, I've never liked the idea of 'take this bozo (unique Citadel(tm) model only £15! Order yours today!) and those guys are magically the mainstay of your army, instead of elite special forces'.

But even taking that into account, Repentia are the antithesis of what Troops are in this game.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> Mind you, I've never liked the idea of 'take this bozo (unique Citadel(tm) model only £15! Order yours today!) and those guys are magically the mainstay of your army, instead of elite special forces'.


It makes some sense though; either that commander would only take those forces to war or has the ability or authority to have such a force.
Mr. Bonaparte himself held his best soldiers back, near himself for a while. (Eventually he had them mix into the rest of his forces.)

The force you play is not indicative of an 'average' force (If so, there would only be one marine codex and it would be five pages long). Just as a 1500pt game is not 'full scale war' but can be anything from a tiny snapshot of a massive planet wide no-mans-land, a small contingent flanking the enemies command, an advanced scout force all the way to two combat patrols bumping into each other. (A Mission, the smallest formal arrangement of Battle Sisters and normally used for combat patrol, is a 1000 - 2000pt army)

Taking this into account it is fully possible to have Papa Smurf, the Mighty Avatar Smasher, leading a 200pt army beating on Gretchin. Perhaps the Greenies found a cyclonic torpedo and so instead of waiting for Commander Redshirt and his merry men to arrive, Calgar just pointed to the first two squads of Honour Guard he saw and ran off, hoping to get there before the gits found and pressed the on button.
Maybe it isn't the Orks that are the problem but the Chaos cronies just over the hill, the orks just so happened to be standing in the way at the time.

You never know, there very well may be Canoness McMartyr who has taken it upon herself to lead the Repentia from many orders.
Maybe there is an order that just really likes pseudo-falling. (I honestly would not put that past GW at this point. I am fully prepared for innumerable orders to of suddenly decided that Chaos was a better deal. (Face it; they at least won't get shitted on anymore by their own allies))

Like you said though, Repentia don't meet the basic requirement for troops.
But then, neither do Berserkers, Bloodletters, Death Company, Flesh Tearers... etc...
It won't stop GW, never has, never will.

---



MadCowCrazy said:


> Anyone know where these are from?


They are all scratch-builds, I don't know who did them but I saw photos of them under construction.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TeDasCuen said:


> YES! NICE! :so_happy:
> 
> And perhaps a GK leader brutally busted with a shoulder name: "_Ward_"?


I will name the piece "WHERE'S YOUR "WARD" SAVE NOW?!



Azezel said:


> Y'know, thinking about it, I cannot imagine a single thing less fluffy than a squad of Repentia camped out at an objective while their sisters die on the front lines.


I think they fall into the same category as BA Death Company, can't hold objectives so no point at all to keep them back.
As for fluff the fluff states, if I remember correctly, that some abbess or such was making some changes and the Repentia feared they would be abolished but they were embraced instead. I'm sure it's in one of the Sister codicies.

I wouldn't think they are that rare as there are millions if not billions of sisters across the galaxy and with the sisters rigorous codes of existence it seems pretty easy to fall from grace.

I see the Repentia as the first to enter battle and the last to leave as they seek redemption for the failures they feel they have done. I think scout rule fits them perfectly as well since they want to get into battle as soon as possible so getting to do a scout move gets them close to redemption.
Same goes for Penitent Engines, scout makes perfect sense for them as well since they charge mindlessly into battle to kill or be killed.


----------



## crooner

On repentia, someone on here mentioned a while back that repentia might be a squad upgrade and that they have counter attack. If the squad is assaulted the Repentia takes one for the team and runs out to save the sisters she's accompanying.
Was that dispelled? Because I thought that was kinda fun.


----------



## Kettu

That was my rampant wishlisting.

Repentia originally had the rules that you took just one in a squad and they would counter charge if the squad they were in was charged.
She would die but leave the enemy standing short of the Sisters in perfect aim of their guns.
If she survived and fled from combat the Sister squad would automatically break as well. 

I do hope they bring back this option with the codex. Use the Sister Oblatia as mention in Dark Heresy seeing as they are more of less now what Repentia use to be.

But yeah, not a rumour.


----------



## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> I wouldn't think they are that rare as there are millions if not billions of sisters across the galaxy and with the sisters rigorous codes of existence it seems pretty easy to fall from grace.


Billions? There are less than 50,000 Sisters. Even if they only spent a single year at the convent on Ophelia VII or Terra and served for an average of a hundred years, that still gives an upper limit of ~3,000,000 Sisters.



> I see the Repentia as the first to enter battle and the last to leave as they seek redemption for the failures they feel they have done. I think scout rule fits them perfectly as well since they want to get into battle as soon as possible so getting to do a scout move gets them close to redemption.


I prefer them as a counter-charge unit (that lets other units use Hit & Run when they enter melee). It makes them more "Big Damn Heroes" and less "Leeroy Jenkins".


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Anyone know where this is from?


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Anyone know where this is from?


Maybe 4chan?


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Anyone know where this is from?


Planet of the babes, for sure.


----------



## Kettu

Again, a custom sculpt using this picture as basis (Which, again, is fan art):


----------



## Kettu

AlexHolker said:


> Billions? There are less than 50,000 Sisters. Even if they only spent a single year at the convent on Ophelia VII or Terra and served for an average of a hundred years, that still gives an upper limit of ~3,000,000 Sisters.


I'm interested to know where you are getting the numbers and your maths from.

If we use 2nd ed material, there can only be a maximum of 60,000.
3rd & 4th ed, no upward number is given, or as far as I can tell, any number that would allow a maximum to be worked out.

5th ed, 10,000 maximum. (Thanks Ward)


----------



## AlexHolker

Kettu said:


> I'm interested to know where you are getting the numbers and your maths from.
> 
> If we use 2nd ed material, there can only be a maximum of 60,000.


The 2nd edition codex says the two convents could accomodate ~15,000 Sisters of Battle each, for a total of 30,000.


----------



## Kettu

Sorry.
Yes, my mistake.
It still doesn't answer where you got the numbers and maths from for your earlier comment of a maximum of 3 million.


----------



## AlexHolker

Kettu said:


> It still doesn't answer where you got the numbers and maths from for your earlier comment of a maximum of 3 million.


I was making a _very_ generous estimate, and pointing out that even that wouldn't be enough. There can be no "if not billions" if that would require 100 years of service for every day spent at the convent.


----------



## The Sullen One

So according to fluff, there are significantly less Sisters of Battle than Space Marines?

Somehow that seems a little unbelievable. In the Imperium ecclesiarchical cities are as common as forge worlds, each one of which has it's own garrison of Sisters of Battle to help defend it. Now true it's not everyday you see a battle sister, but given the way in which the ecclesiarchy operates, especially in regards to 'heretical' planets, it seems a bit odd that they'd have such small numbers.


----------



## Sworn Radical

The Sullen One said:


> In the Imperium ecclesiarchical cities are as common as forge worlds, each one of which has it's own garrison of Sisters of Battle to help defend it.


Uh, now where does that come from ? 
I'd guess a lot of the more backwater planets / systems surely don't have a steady access to Sisters to guard their holy sites / shrines / ecclesiarchical dwellings. 
And if they had, it'd surely not be a frickin' garrison ...
Yes, shrine worlds (that's the thing you meant I guess) might be more or less common, depending on sector, but there's never going to be a garrison of Sisters stationed on each and every one.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well, I figured that since there are countless millions of planets belonging to the imperium, most of which probably have some sort of Ecclesiarichal presence wouldn't it be plausible for these planets to send possible recruits to the Scholo Progenum?

Anything less than 10 million sisters just seems a bit low, from the fluff it says Sisters often stand guard at Ecclesiarchy chapels and things like that but with a max of 60, 000 Sisters this would mean very few planets would even have a single sister.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, I figured that since there are countless millions of planets belonging to the imperium, most of which probably have some sort of Ecclesiarichal presence wouldn't it be plausible for these planets to send possible recruits to the Scholo Progenum?
> 
> Anything less than 10 million sisters just seems a bit low, from the fluff it says Sisters often stand guard at Ecclesiarchy chapels and things like that but with a max of 60, 000 Sisters this would mean very few planets would even have a single sister.


Yeah, I too think that this number is total bullshit.
Probably just misinterpreting something, or failing to take into account something else.


----------



## Kettu

It's a shame that Warseer is currently down as I once did some maths coupled with fluff mentions of the jobs entailed by the Sisters and came to the conclusion that there would be millions of Sisters minimum.

I never saved it, or don't think I did. I'll drag out all my old mem-sticks later. Normally when I needed it I just did a search of my old posts.

Anyway...

The Ecclesiarchy has on average one Shrine World and one Major Cathedral not on the same world per Sector. On top of this there is roughly one major Ecclesiarchy point on every second world in the Imperium. This is only average, some will have several per system and some others will have nothing sector wide due to Marine or Ad-Mech ownership or other factors.

All of these 'major' points of interest will have a force of Sisters on hand for protection, upkeep and decoration purpose.
Even if this force was nothing more then a ten girl squad on most worlds _(Not gonna happen, the smallest force that they will go is a Mission, essentially 1000 - 2000 pts force)_ then that is still 10 x 500,000, Five Million Sisters!

Codex Witch Hunters then further expanded the list of jobs beyond shrine guard and grounds keeper to Bodyguard of all high ranking Ecclesiarchy members _(One Bishop to Sector, more or less, and Bishop isn't just the only ones)_, guards of the Pilgrimage lanes, sometimes guards on the Blackships _(I guess to help cover the Sisters of Silence when they get spread to thin, total conjecture here, SoS are only mentioned off hand or hinted at with the subtlety of a Chainfist)_, Purity sweeps of the Imperium, some orders are on permanent standby for the Inquisition, The Primary standing force in a War of Faith _(Which the Ecclesiarchy embark on about as often as crusades are declared)_, Fighting in and ensuring Ecclesiarchy interests are maintained in Crusades... etc...

Now, the Sisterhood would not leave a guarded site to do one of these duties in the mean time and so there would need to be enough numbers on hand already to ensure that all of the above and more are done and done properly.
_(Grey Knight codex, through all the faults of the Bloodtide story actually reinforce this point rather well, Sororitas are *More Pure* then the Grey Knights.)_

Also, consider this is just the Militant arm of the Sisters. There is roughly one Sister Militant to any one Non-militant.
So, double the number.

I'll try to hunt down my original working later and failing that I'll just go gather the sources for my workings instead.


----------



## Azezel

The Imperium is consistently described as having a million worlds. Now, that may not be a precise number - and it certainly changes from day to day, but I think we can be confident that it's more than 500'000 and less than two million.

Every Imperial world has at least one cathedral - even the pissant little agriworlds and feral backwaters. It might not be a very impressive cathedral, but every world has one.

(In fact, the Ecclesiarchy has flat-pack cathedrals that can be dropped from orbit within hours of a world being conquored).

Every Cathedral has a garisson of Battle Sisters A particularly small cathedral may only have a dozen or so, the bare minimum to guard the building and the Bishop. The primary cathedral of a major hive world will have a garrison of hundreds.

Of course, most plannets will have more than one cathedral, and a lot of major temples will have a garrison even if they don't qualify as cathedrals. Then we have the Sorroritas own convents. And I do mean Sororitas, not Battle Sisters. You can bet that even a Dialogous or Hospitalier convent will have a garrison of Battle Sisters, just in case.

Then there are shrines and holy sites, which will have their own garrisons, The Black Ships are sometimes guarded by Battle Sisters - not to mention all the Sisters attached to the Inuisition, or on campaign.

Whatever the BRB says - given the things we know about the Sororitas and the duties of the Sisters Militant we're looking at a billion Battle Sisters _minimum_. Personally, I'd estimate two to three times that number.

And in the Imperium, three billion is still god-damned rare.


----------



## Azezel

I thought I'd swing by Warsneer and see if the old girl's back online (she is).

Ghost21 had dropped another couple of hints.



Ghost21 said:


> plastic:- penitent engine, n priest kit





Ghost21 said:


> oh n i think sisters ill have no problem cracking high armour targets


He's still a bit illiterate for me to feel confident trusting him - but he certainly gives the impression that he knows something, rather than guesses or fabricates his rumours.

Pinch of salt and all that rot.


----------



## Kettu

Cracking armour is something Sisters have never had to worry about.

It's getting close that's the problem.


----------



## ashikenshin

well, I just hope to see the new models soon. While assembling 10 wyches and 10 kabalite warriors this weekend, I just kept thinking how awesome the new sisters would be.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The plastic penitent and priest kits rumour is months old now, and the other one isn't much of a rumour since Sisters have no problem cracking high armour targets right now, they just can't do it from very far atm.

I posted my Faith idea to Robin Cruddace last week but I'm probably too late if we see a dex release this year. Will post it once we get the sisters incoming newsletter.

I'm curious to know if Sisters will get a flier of some sort, the Valkyrie would make sense but I could see Dominions using Land Speeder Storms as well but then they would just be turning into Brothers of Battle.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> It's getting close that's the problem.


So we do in fact have a problem cracking armour, even if it's a different one to say, the problem the 'nids have.

/me crosses his fingers. Come on Rending Exorcists!


----------



## Kettu

Dear god, following the thread on warseer and it is starting to sound like the Sisters will have a psychic option.



Theocracity said:


> Either way it's not particularly related to Sisters rumors. I wouldn't be too surprised to see some type of psychic sister in a new codex, though probably in a very limited role. The Imperium has a way of rationalizing the use of the things it professes to hate.





ghost21 said:


> :shifty::shifty::shifty:
> 
> honestly i could see it too


I do hope I'm just reading to much into this and that GW hasn't thought that ALL armies need a psyker of some kind.


----------



## hungryugolino

No. No. No. After the atrocity that was daemonhunters, they had better not make the psychic units Sisters.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> I do hope I'm just reading to much into this and that GW hasn't thought that ALL armies need a psyker of some kind.


Well, they didn't put a psyker in the DE book (and you'd think if any army had psykers it'd be Eldar) - so they probably don't think that all armies need psykers.

On the other hand, legend has it that the 'crons are getting psychic powers disguised as 'tech upgrades' so your guess is as good as mine.

I really hope not though. It's... Well, it's as wrong as radical Grey Knights. Dammit.


----------



## TheSpore

Honestly I can see the sisters getting some sort of psyker unit of some kind, but im sure they wouldn't be a psyker army like GK are(such un sportsman filth). Now i can also why not esspecially if they still have the faith stuff goin for them. But even then the faith system is pretty much somwhat pshker like.


----------



## Creon

I anticipate faith being somewhat like demonic powers. Not psychic, so hoods and all don't affect it, but minor buffs/upgrades not massive ones.


----------



## andrewm9

Creon said:


> I anticipate faith being somewhat like demonic powers. Not psychic, so hoods and all don't affect it, but minor buffs/upgrades not massive ones.


It had do something impressive otherwise with their statline they will just bite it almost every game. Faith is impressive now but limited; its just clumsy to do.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'd like the Faith system to be what makes the Sisters unique, what makes or breaks the army if you will. That when using acts of faith the Sisters can become superior to SM standards but there has to be some risk to it.
Basically 10 Sisters vs 10 SM will always end with the Sisters losing, but Sisters using either the +S or +I can make the fight even. If you could combine both it would make the Sisters win, this is something I'd like to see. The ability to go beyond the norm for a round or phase but not something you can rely on in every fight.
I'd like Faith points to be based on the number of points of faithful you have, in my letter to Robin I suggested 1 FP per 100pts of Faithful units, this system would scale perfectly and allow people to take larger units instead of 6 MSU troops only to get faith points. 15 FP at 1500pts, 20 at 2000pt, with the removal of Martyrdom.
With the system I suggested you could literally spend 18FP on a single unit in a single turn, it would make it extremely good but next turn you would have pretty much no Faith points left. Pulling something like this of would be an enormous risk, one that could lose you all those Faith Points without getting any benefit at all.

This is what I want to see, the risk should be proportional to the reward. Take a big risk and you should be rewarded for it, then again even with the benefits of AoF dice rolls could still screw you.

The only thing that makes Sisters truly unique are the Acts of Faith but I have played games where I've never even had the opportunity to use them because a situation never arose where it would be beneficial to use them.
Without AoF Sisters are just humans with power armour and bolters.


----------



## Azezel

rasolyo said:


> And now for something completely unrelated:
> 
> View attachment 12783
> 
> 
> Can someone talented enough make a grey knight version of PROBLEM ASTARTES? Preferably in the style of hungryugolino's avatar. Wearing a sororitas skullcap.
> 
> View attachment 12782
> 
> 
> I'll give you a cookie. And some rep, too. :grin:


I tried the skullcap, but it really didn't go well with trollface. Just looked wrong to me...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Needs more Sororitas blood and heads all over it


----------



## rasolyo

Azezel said:


> I tried the skullcap, but it really didn't go well with trollface. Just looked wrong to me...


HA! Good effort, sir. Have some rep. Or as I'd like to call them:

INTERNET COOKIES.

EDIT: Looks like I can't give you any more internet cookies. Have one internet instead.


----------



## Kettu

More musing from Ghost21:



ghost21 said:


> adeptas sortias were there though, in a way i think the new models return to the old design (or artwork)


They are talking about Sisters 'returning' to their original design.
Which the Sisters never left.
At all.
Unless they mean this.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I ignored that comment since it doesn't really provide you with anything. The Sisters have only ever had a single model release, the sisters we have now looks the same as when they were first released. The only model ever to get an update was the Canoness, everyone else looks the same as they did in 2E. So not sure at all what he is talking about...


----------



## Kettu

I even asked them that but so far they have ignored every other question I have asked so we'll see.

I'm just relaying any and all I hear that I haven't seen posted yet. On the most part it all sounds like attention whores then rumours to me.


----------



## Azezel

Some of the first and second edition pictures show sisters wearing wimples. That'd tie in with StickMonkey's veil rumour.

But I still cannot tie the current rumours in with what Jes Goodwin said last year. It's realy starting to bothed me. There is an important peice of the puzzle missing.

Jes said that plastic sisters were more than 18 months off.

Current rumours are pointing to this autumn.

Both of these cannot be true...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Sisters were released this winter. Why? Because every single release we have had this past year has been said to be delayed etc, yet not a single release has been delayed from when it was rumoured to be released.


----------



## Kettu

Codex and non-sister minis first.
Sisters in the 2nd wave.

GW sit back and wonder why the Sister still don't sell and can them for another decade.

An thus, status quo is preserved.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

How I would like to see Acts of Faith work is how I've been saying for months. More than likely they will make them squad specific. You can already see GW working this mechanic in with Brotherhood of Psykers, and could be an indication as to what we will see in the new SoB codex. They did a similar "test run" with the Furioso Librarian being a psychic vehicle to see how the mechanic would work for GK.

I would still like to see them being able to use multiple acts on any given turn, in the old codex this gave them a distinct advantage. There would, of course, have to be some sort of test to see if the act was performed successfully, either testing against Ld or unit size. Though I could see them phasing out Faith Points all together. GW has cut a lot of micro management out of 40k in the newer editions. To compensate, a unit could only use their Acts of Faith if their Sister Superior is still alive, or if they are joined by an HQ or priest like IC.


----------



## Necrosis

abitterbuffalo said:


> How I would like to see Acts of Faith work is how I've been saying for months. More than likely they will make them squad specific. You can already see GW working this mechanic in with Brotherhood of Psykers, and could be an indication as to what we will see in the new SoB codex. They did a similar "test run" with the Furioso Librarian being a psychic vehicle to see how the mechanic would work for GK.


I'm getting sick of people saying acts of faith is going to be squad specific. I mean the new grey knights come out and everyone is saying acts of faith are going to be squad specific. When the new dark eldar codex came out people said it was going to be like reverse pain token and look pain tokens aren't squad specific. Before the Dark Eldar when the Imperial Guard Codex came out, people said acts of faith were going to be like orders (and orders arent squad specific). Before that, people said they were going to be Wargear. To be honest I wouldn't like acts of faith to be specific. Maybe if there were general acts of faith which all squads could use and then each squad had it's own unique act of faith then that would be fine.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Since we are yet again talking about Acts of Faith lets take a trip down memory lane shall we 
If they had Acts of Faith before the below ones please correct me.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 1997
Had no Acts of Faith but instead "Sacred Rites"
How it worked: Units and characters added points, a Canoness +3, VSS +2 etc, psykers added a negative modifier.
At the start of the game you roll a D6 for each squad and compare the result to a table.
1: No effect
2: Immune to fear and terror (Fearless)
3: The squad has Frenzy (old Rage rule?)
4: +1LD to a max of 10
5: Squad hates the enemy (preferred enemy)
6: Squad has a 4+ save vs psychic attacks
7: Squad automatically passes all psychology and break tests (Fearless)
8: Ignores the Target Priority rules, could basically shoot what they wanted to except IC within 2" of a unit.
9: At end of shooting phase the squad may fire again.


Chapter Approved 2nd Book of Astronomican 2001
Introduction of the Acts of Faith
How it worked: You got Faith Points from certain characters and units, when they died you got more FP equal to the amount they provided before (called Acts of Martyrdom).
Only Faithful units could benefit from AoF.

Test: Each cost 1FP, based on a Leadership test, no members of the army count as being Psykers.

Spirit of the Martyr:
Done after armour saves were done, did not work on ID shooting or CC no armour save attacks. Each wounded model receives a 4+ save against each wound caused.
Kinda sounds like Will Be Back doesn't it 

Divine Guidance:
After rolled to hit but before rolled to wound, shooting or close combat, any roll to wound on a 6 ignores armour saves, if target has no armour save it has no effect.

The Passion:
Done in the shooting phase, instead of shooting the unit must "fleet of foot" towards the nearest visible enemy if not in CC and must assault in the Assault phase if able to.
All models get +2Initiative and +1Attack for the remainder of the turn.

Light of the Emperor:
Unit can regroup even if below half strength.


Codex: Witch Hunters 2003
How it works: Faithful models give FP, units with Faithful model can perform AoF.

Test: Roll 2D6 and compare it to the requirements of the specific AoF.
Independent characters on their own does an unmodified Leadership test.

Hand of the Emperor:
Roll equal or under the current models in a unit. +2Strength but strike at Initiative 1.

Divine Guidance:
Roll equal or under the current models in a unit. Shooting wounds on a 6 count as Ap1. CC wounds on a 6 count as Power Weapon wounds.

The Passion:
Roll equal or over the current models in a unit. Unit gets +2 Initiative in CC.

Light of the Emperor:
Roll equal or over the current models in a unit. Unit becomes Fearless for the turn.

Spirit of the Martyr:
Roll equal or over the current models in a unit. Unit gains an Invulnerable save equal to it's normal Armour save.


There you have it, the history of the Sisters Acts of Faith. One new AoF was given with the Witch Hunter dex, can we expect to get more for the new dex?


----------



## crooner

I would hope these would be in the new codex, but what else could they think to add? Would they modify those that they already have? If GW has been making certain vehicles psychic, perhaps using an act of faith while embarked in a vehicle would have certain benefits. Like using spirit of the martyr while in a rhino gives the rhino a 5+ invuln save, or divine guidance carries over to the vehicle's weapons. 
Off the top of my head I can't think of any new acts to make, although I'm personally in favor of an act that reduces all Grey Knights on the table to Strength and Toughness 2. XDDD


----------



## Azezel

For ,y part, I'd eliminate the Passion & Hand of the Emperor and replace them with a single act which adds 2 to any one characteristic (max 10) for the phase.

This could give a Battle Sister BS 6 for example, or 3 attacks (four on the charge) or toughness 5 - but since no act can be used more than once, it would often be hard to choose what you want +2 on.

I also think we need something to help against high-volume attacks. Spirit of the Martyr is fantastic against high AP - but when you've got 10 Dire Avengers bladestorming, or being charged by thirty Orks AP is the least of your worries. Sheer volume of attacks is what counts.

The ability to re-roll failed saves (or get FNP, since everyone else has it) would by ace.


----------



## crooner

If acts of faith start being rolled off of leadership instead of model count I can see that being a handy combo actually. Re-roll your armor saves for the heaps of attacks coupled with Spirit of the martyr for the guy with the power sword.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

crooner said:


> Off the top of my head I can't think of any new acts to make


Really? I added 11 "new" effects to the system I sent to Robin. It's really easy to expand upon the AoF, you could probably add twice this and still have a system that doesn't feel clunky.



Azezel said:


> For ,y part, I'd eliminate the Passion & Hand of the Emperor and replace them with a single act which adds 2 to any one characteristic (max 10) for the phase.
> 
> This could give a Battle Sister BS 6 for example, or 3 attacks (four on the charge) or toughness 5 - but since no act can be used more than once, it would often be hard to choose what you want +2 on.
> 
> I also think we need something to help against high-volume attacks. Spirit of the Martyr is fantastic against high AP - but when you've got 10 Dire Avengers bladestorming, or being charged by thirty Orks AP is the least of your worries. Sheer volume of attacks is what counts.
> 
> The ability to re-roll failed saves (or get FNP, since everyone else has it) would by ace.


Allot of what you suggest I added to my system, I combined HotE and TP into one but still kept The Passion. 

Bah, I feel like such an ass for not posting my system but if there was the slightest chance it would even be considered I would keep it to myself until codex release.

I will explain it though. Basically AoF are LD value characteristics tests meaning you always use the characters base LD value without modifiers. Seraphim and other upgrades would add to this value though.
There are 6 AoF in total, 2 All Phase, 2 Shooting and 2 Assault. Each test is done at the start of the turn before movement is made and last until the players next turn. There are 3 levels to each AoF and for every level you attempt above the first you get -1 to your Faith test. So a level 3 would cost 3FP to attempt and mean a Canoness did the test on 8 or lower. This might not sound like much but your standard Sister would be reduced to trying the test on 6 or lower. The penalty for failure is having your LD reduced by the Faith Test penalty if there was one, the loss of the FP, any previously successful acts would be removed from the character and they cannot attempt any more AoF until the players next turn. All AoF effects are cumulative.
So you could basically string all 6 AoF together on one squad spending 18 FP in total but the question is if it's worth the risk? You could succeed with 5 AoF and then fail on the last one, you would now have lost 18FP, the squad would have -2Ld until your next turn and you would have pretty much no FPs left. I suggested you get 1 FP for every 100pts of Faithful units you have, this way you could get away from MSU spam which people would only use to get more FP for cheaper and would balance itself based on the point level of the game. So 15 FP at 1500, 20 at 2000, of course HQ units like a Canoness would add more to the total. It's about choice basically, you wouldn't be forced to create that one good unit and then spam MSU just to get FPs to use on the unit.
Shooting
Divine Guidance: Twin-Linked/Rending/Opponent: Reroll Successful Saves
His Will Be Done: Increase max range of all weapons carried by a value in inches equal to the models BS. Template weapons are fired the same way as Hellhounds and Heavy Incinerators are. Base/x2/x3
Assault
Hand of the Emperor: Preferred Enemy/+2S before modifiers/+2 Initiative
The Passion: Furious Charge/Rending/Weapons that normally hit at I1 now strike at base Initiative
All Phases
Light of the Emperor: Fearless/Fleet & Relentless/Reroll to Wound
Spirit of the Martyr: Reroll failed armour saves/Inv save equal to armour save/Reroll failed Invulnerable saves

This is basically what I sent to Robin Cruddace, I think this system is by far the best one I've seen so far. I can agree it's a bit boring though with all the USR it throws around but that's meant to show the effect I'm looking for.
Rending could be Ap1 or Power Weapons like it is now, Preferred enemy could be Holy Hatred etc.

I was thinking up this system when contemplating if I should write Codex: Ordo Sepulturum or not and I found that this system gives the player everything they would want from the Faith system. It gives you allot of choices for your units, it allows you to gain benefits that would allow you to win an engagement you would normally be guaranteed to lose yet it still has it's risks and the limit to your FP pool balances the system. I have done the math and this system is far from OP, I'm sure people will look at the different levels and think OMG THAT'S OP but when you start rolling dice it isn't that simple. Your normal Sister squad has LD9 if the VSS is alive but still making that Faith Test on 7 or lower can be quite risky.
You basically have to ask yourself, do you take a risk or play it safe? The first level of the power doesn't have any test penalties so you can play it safe and get some smaller benefits or do you go all out to get some really awesome stuff but take a huge risk at the same time?

Concept is pretty simple, you have 2 AoF that aid your shooting, 2 that aid you in close combat and 2 that help you survive or aid you in what you are trying to do.
Divine Guidance helps you cause wounds, His Will Be Done increases the range at which you can do this and makes flamers more viable (smart unit placement can make it so a flame template can hit only 3-4 models but with this you have a higher chance to cover allot more. A BS4 Sister at rank 1 could place the template 4" in front of her and then pivot it to her liking hitting more targets at further range. This also helps the sisters survive in the 12-24" zone that they are most effective in.)
Hand of the Emperor allows you to deal more damage in assault, with WS3 you will almost always hit on 4+ and with PE it is almost on par with hitting on 3+. Holy Hatred is always hitting on 3+ so if that's more interesting I can see it but the effect is still the same and Celestians with Holy Hatred is more interesting to me. +2S and +2I are self explanatory, S5 and I5 isn't that good but it at least gives you a chance in assault.
The Passion is the next assault Faith and it should be pretty clear what the purpose is, it allows you to hit harder faster. Using Eviscerators at I3 isn't that good but it can be really powerful in many fights.
Light of the Emperor should also be pretty straight forwards, Fearless is the same as before and rank 2 is useful for both a shooting and assaulting as is re-rolling to wound.
Spirit of the Martyr is for survival, pretty straight forwards.
All of these also have the added benefit of working pretty seamlessly with vehicles as well.

So what do you guys think? Am I delusional to think this system good? Do you think it's OP? Do you think it's shit? Try it out for yourselves, do some dice tests or play a few tests games using it. From my own experience I'm confident enough to say it's a fair system, then again I'm basing it on current unit costs and upgrades. Sister Repentia can also use them but only for as long as the Mistress is alive as she if anyone should be Faithful.


----------



## Tahiri

Azezel said:


> The ability to re-roll failed saves (or get FNP, since everyone else has it) would by ace.


 
Thats why we need to be able to take Hospitallers as an eilites choice or as a squad upgrade to give FNP or a FNP bubble like Sanguinary Priests.


----------



## Diatribe1974

I think it's safe to say that with any SoB update, we're going to see them get (perhaps not fully) "Grey Knighted" in how good they now are (in GW's eyes at least).


----------



## Grogbart

@MCC

As my taste of faith is supposedly off, no comment on liking or disliking here!
But it seems to me, you've run into the same kind of problems as I did, when writing my codex: AoF interfering with ablilities and special rules of some units.
I don't know what you already had in mind for the rest of of the codex but here are the problems, I see:

Divine Guidance, Twin-linked on Seraphim with dual bolt pistols?
Hand of the Emperor, Preferred Enemy on Celestians with Holy Hatred?
How about Simulacra Imperialis, taken into account or left out?
And the much supposed Hospitaler with FNP combined with rerolling armour saves might be OP (if rerolling armour saves alone isn't already)
Finally a little internal disbalance (to my mind!) +2 Initiative only avalible for 3 FPs? What if my classic Canoness with her trusted holy weapon attacks Toughness 3 models with Initiative 5 and I want her to strike first. I'd have to make a monster Test of Faith for Preferred enemy and two useless points of Strength.

Please take this as constructive critism and pardon me for gathering my thoughts in quite a haste before rushing off to work.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> Divine Guidance, Twin-linked on Seraphim with dual bolt pistols?
> Hand of the Emperor, Preferred Enemy on Celestians with Holy Hatred?
> How about Simulacra Imperialis, taken into account or left out?
> And the much supposed Hospitaler with FNP combined with rerolling armour saves might be OP (if rerolling armour saves alone isn't already)
> Finally a little internal disbalance (to my mind!) +2 Initiative only avalible for 3 FPs? What if my classic Canoness with her trusted holy weapon attacks Toughness 3 models with Initiative 5 and I want her to strike first. I'd have to make a monster Test of Faith for Preferred enemy and two useless points of Strength.


I've taken things like twin-linked on Seraphim and the Reroll-to wound Faith in regards to flamers. The question I asked myself was; Do you want twin-linked with seraphim? I came to the conclusion that you would only take it to make the hand flamers twin-linked (I know the bolt pistols already are). I split the Faiths up into Generic, Shooting and Assault for a reason, basically you will want to assault with your Seraphim so would most likely not use the shooting faiths, unless you wanted twin-linked hand flamers. The bolt pistols hardly do anything as it is so that is a decision you would have to make yourself, another solution I've thought of is if the weapon is already twin-linked you get 1 more shot. This would make Immolators a bit more scary and so forth.

I've also taken into account Celestians Holy Hatred, it's just a 3+ with re-rolls, they only have 1A base yet they are supposed to be the elite of the elite Sisters. They only become scary in CC when you start stacking AoF.

Simulacrum Imperialis and Litanies of Faith have also been taken into account, it would give you reason to take them but at 20pts cost in todays environment is quite expensive. It's no different from a reverse psychic hood but you have to take it on every single unit you want it to benefit.
Litanies of Faith I've had many ideas on, everything from reducing the penalty by 1-2 when using higher ranks of Faiths to letting it do what it currently does or for spending 1FP letting it do what it currently does (So you could take a rank 3 AoF without the test but would have to pay 4FP to do so).

I've had many ideas for for the other Ordos, like 1-5 in an army that work similarly to priests. There would be Dialogus that reduced the Ld of enemies within 6-12" or give your own units a Stubborn bubble similar to what the Book of St Lucius does right now. Hospitaller would give a 3+ FNP to her own unit or a 4+ 6" bubble depending on the kit you gave her, they are said to be amongst the best medics the Imperium has so there would have to be some way to make this noticeable. FNP is not an armour save or an Inv save so would not benefit from the AoF.
I've also had ideas for the rest and for Priests.

When doing my Acts of Faith I had to look at it from a broader perspective, I balanced my AoF after what you would want your army to do, not the individual SC or IC. I felt that you would rather give your entire squad PE, +2S and +2I than just a solo character. I have also considered the dilemma you mentioned and my solution is that models with the IC rule can attempt any ranked Faith for 1 FP. So if your Canoness wanted to get just +2I should could do the test with no penalty for 1 FP. Balance to this would be if she is in a unit and the unit tries to do another Faith and fail she would also lose the +2I since she is part of the unit.


----------



## VaUgHaNy86

Whilst talking to my local manager today (trying to see if anyone goes in there who plays or who may be interested in starting to play Sisters 'cos im trying to sell mine) we got into a convo about release dates, he's certain that we won't see the Sisters this year and that they are more likely to be released first quarter of next year, he reckons there's no space in the schedule to fit them in this year with the other releases we are all expecting as well


----------



## TheSpore

VaUgHaNy86 said:


> Whilst talking to my local manager today (trying to see if anyone goes in there who plays or who may be interested in starting to play Sisters 'cos im trying to sell mine) we got into a convo about release dates, he's certain that we won't see the Sisters this year and that they are more likely to be released first quarter of next year, he reckons there's no space in the schedule to fit them in this year with the other releases we are all expecting as well


Local Managers know about as much as we dfo along with everone else which is nothing. Not trying to offend you in any way.


----------



## Kettu

To quote my local store Manager;
'If they told us any more then they would have to staple my lips to stop me telling everyone.'


----------



## VaUgHaNy86

no offense taken, much more pleasant than i got from the reply on warseer, just thought i'd post summit i'd been told


----------



## TheSpore

VaUgHaNy86 said:


> no offense taken, much more pleasant than i got from the reply on warseer, just thought i'd post summit i'd been told


Its all good some poeple online just tend to take some of my comments too seriously


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheSpore said:


> Local Managers know about as much as we dfo along with everone else which is nothing. Not trying to offend you in any way.


The fact that he's right doesn't mean anything either way, the same goes for me


----------



## Kettu

Sigh...




ghost21 said:


> yeah sisters will be 5 to a box with options for seraphim though (i wished it wasnt true but unfortunatley ive seen the evedence)


----------



## Winterous

That is kinda ridiculous, hope they change it.
I mean, Death Company are a comparable kit to that, options for guns, melee weapons, jump packs and regular packs, but they aren't a cheap unit you take lots of!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm really hope it's just a Celestian/Seraphim box, 1 5 girl box for Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors would be really bad as they would all basically look the same.


----------



## ashikenshin

I was going to say that if they look anything like the pagk then I wouldn't mind. But if they do include everything then as mcc says they will look all the same. It would suck but I will still buy them...


----------



## Kettu

I don't think my avatar has ever been more appropriate then for this current news.

*EDIT:*

Additional stuff.



brassangel said:


> One of the boxes will be this way, but that won't contain the standard Sisters.
> 
> They will have two "core" plastic releases, from what I've seen; both with the ability to build different multiple unit types.


----------



## Kettu

And now this, allegedly from Blood of Kittens.


> I want to confirm for everyone that the Sisters new ”book” will be coming out sometime this year (most likely before the Necron release). There is more– SoB will be White Dwarf only release stretched over two issues, with a online PDF by the end of the year. I had reported this possibility (in a cryptic matter before) on BoLS, so this is a confirmation of said rumor. Cruddace will be your GW author for this book. No word on new sculpts, but my bet is on only resin recast of existing models. As for the rules I have nothing to report as of yet, but look for at least two ecclesiastical characters from the fluff/past to appear in the new dex.


Ok, BoK has probably the Worst track record of any rumour monger out there, anything that was their own words should have, statistically speaking, been right by shear accident by now.
This had better not be that one exception.

I do like though, how he invokes the resin minis after that rumour has been killed, skinned, tanned, processed and made into an Akubra.


----------



## Midge913

Its good to hear that there will be two (or more) kits that build several different units each. 

As to a WD Codex...... Really. He expects us to swallow that tripe. It was pretty clear after the disaster that was the BA WD codex GW won't do that again.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Not to mention the Warriors of Chaos White Dwarf Army List.


----------



## laviathan13089

Bindi Baji said:


> Hmm, good point, are bananas ever truly reliable though?


they seemed reliable in Donkey Kong... mmmmmmm bananas...:mrgreen:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Before Necrons would mean they are in the July WD but if it's stretched over 2 WDs then it would be in June and July but that seems unlikely if those WDs are dedicated to the DE release and the Fantasy thing.

It is rumoured to be a release on the 15th next month, 9th for DE 2nd wave part 1 and on the 29th part 2 of it (or some dates like this). The middle date release has been rumoured to be the summer of fliers release but could it be Sisters of Battle?
I dont think so, we should have had leaked rules by now and more information, as it is we have tons of Necron rumours but pretty much no Sisters (in regards to rules, models and codex content).

I dont think GW would make a WD update for the Sisters codex, unless they were trying out something new. Like a new sort of Allies system or something like this.

I got some newsletter from BoS (Blood of Shittens) : Check back tomorrow (8:30 PST) in the rumor group for the confirmation many have been waiting for..."


From ghost21 in regards to the WD codex release rumour, can someone bring a camera if this turns out to be true :crazy: :


> ok that is ironious they will have a proper dex or ill run through the streets of notingham hailing the end of civiliation naked n painted yellow
> 
> i can only go by the sprue i saw though





ghost21 said:


> well concidering they should be out nov time im not sure when they would do this





ghost21 said:


> Originally Posted by Tastyfish View Post
> So no chance of extra legs on another bit then? Or was it pretty obviously a complete set?
> im not saying its imposible i certainly dont see everything . those SoM Monsters for instance poped up without me seeing anything
> 
> it looked like a complete sprue . I have heard repentia getting a plastic kit though


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> From ghost21 in regards to the WD codex release rumour, can someone bring a camera if this turns out to be true :crazy: :


Sadly, it's hard to take photos of the UK from Australia.
Although, if I was there and it :angry:_was_:angry: true, I'd probably be joining everyone.


----------



## ashikenshin

Well, if the sisters' codex turns out to be a proper release, then someone should keep a track record of who said what. Then rub it in every time the person who got it wrong tries to pass another rumor. Don't know if that made sense. 

I would be very angry at a wd release. I don't buy that magazine and don't plan to either.


----------



## Bindi Baji

blood of kittens based rumour 

white dwarf codex :rofl:

*FFS stoppit before I break a rib*


----------



## ashikenshin

bloodofkittens is down? maybe they were on to something


----------



## Azezel

Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. Business as usual.


----------



## Bindi Baji

ashikenshin said:


> bloodofkittens is down? maybe they were on to something


BOK are down due to impending legal action about something else


----------



## Synack

Yeah, don't believe that for a second.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is the future of the Sisters of Battle...
Once we get updates we will be at stage 2 where we will get some cleavage, once we get our 6th update they will be naked, in 60 years or so...


----------



## Midge913

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is the future of the Sisters of Battle...
> Once we get updates we will be at stage 2 where we will get some cleavage, once we get our 6th update they will be naked, in 60 years or so...


:goodpost: I got quite the chuckle out of this!:laugh:


----------



## ashikenshin

I hope we skip all the way to stage 5. Then instead of space marines everyone will be collecting painting and "playing" with the sisters.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This is a representation of going from:
Step 2








Step 3








Step 4








Step5








Step 6 Warning, nudity...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Back to rumours,



ghost21 said:


> heavy weapons are smaller than there marine counterparts , they only have 3 heavy bolter, flamer,n melta respectivly....


Could someone ask ghost21 if this is what was on the sprues he saw?
3 HB, 3 Flamers and 3 Meltas on a single sprue seems like allot.


----------



## Azezel

He meant that they (the army, not the sprue) only have three heave weapons avilable, and that these weapons are the Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer and Multimelta.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Then lets hope GW adds Auto-Cannons and Assault Cannons to that lot with enough blessed ammo to go around.


----------



## mahavira

ashikenshin said:


> I hope we skip all the way to stage 5. Then instead of space marines everyone will be collecting painting and "playing" with the sisters.


Well, GW seems to skip stages. The old model for Morathi was this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440048a&prodId=prod790901

(the one on foot)

and was replaced with:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440048a&prodId=prod790903

So from around 2 straight to 5 (and me wondering whether they should have an age verification). Lelith Hesperax likewise dropped about 40% of her skin covering in a single update.


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> Then lets hope GW adds Auto-Cannons and Assault Cannons to that lot with enough blessed ammo to go around.


Or exorcist missles with melta warheads.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Or exorcist missles with melta warheads.


It already is armed with that. That's why its ap 1.


----------



## mahavira

Then why doesn't it get the extra d6 like the melta torpedo orbital strike? I think it's just a very good armor piercing warhead, like a depleted uranium sabot round in current tanks.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Then why doesn't it get the extra d6 like the melta torpedo orbital strike? I think it's just a very good armor piercing warhead, like a depleted uranium sabot round in current tanks.


I don't know but Forge World says its a Melta Missile. It kind of hard to say when a missile is in melta range or not.


----------



## Kettu

mahavira said:


> Well, GW seems to skip stages. The old model for Morathi was this-SNIP-


Sorry to say but they were both introduced at the same time and the one on foot is just a normal sorceress.

Also, @Madcow;
Isn't the rumours that the Sister are going to be looking MORE like they are in armour?

Unless thy meant the Inverse Armour law for Females. The less is protects, the greater the save.


----------



## mahavira

The sorceress on foot was described as an older morathi model in a WD article. Guess they don't know everything (though you'd think they'd be able to tell when their own stuff was released).


----------



## Purge the Heretic

MadCowCrazy said:


> Could someone ask ghost21 if this is what was on the sprues he saw?
> 3 HB, 3 Flamers and 3 Meltas on a single sprue seems like allot.


The Holy Trinity of weapons, seems obvious for our basic sisters heavy options...

I can't see them not expanding the options in retributor squads however, unless they have something else planned for long range AT...or give us more and cheaper melta... so we can actually get close enough to use it.

I have to hope at least that they give us something to balance out against the 72" range necron(rumored), tau...etc weaponry.

Also if all we have is melta...hello monolith I can't hurt you with anything on the table have fun slaughtering me...

The sprue he mentioned before had special weapons- standard flamer melta etc...so this is either a new sprue or hearsay from whoever provided him a glimpse at said sprue I would guess.

-----------
I'm a bit confused how some of these rumors fit together. 
-----------

Here is a guess:

2 "core" boxes...making multiple units.

We need to fit basic sisters, retributors, dominions, seraphims, and celestians into that...

10 man box with 3 heavy weapons and 3 special weapons (or similar) would cover basic sisters, retribs, and dominions- but thats a whole lot of special weapons on a sprue...especially if it includes duplicates- the non-standard sisters units have always tended to be more specialized than marines...if one takes a flamer, they all do. But does GW care? 3 X 3=9 X 2= 18!? seems unlikely.

There is alot about this first hypothetical box that doesn't seem to jive with me. A 10 man standard sisters/dominion, and a seperate five man retrib seems to fit current packaging patterns much better. 

The other box would the 5 man sprue ghost21 saw for celestians and seraphim... This seems to fit the standard operating procedure to me...5 
(wo)man assault squad box.


----------



## Kettu

More from Ghost21;
I've condensed their two posts into one.



ghost21 said:


> repentia will get there own kit...
> 
> ...they look more like penitent nuns and less like mumy strippers


I'm starting to hope they are correct in a few regards. I hope and dream that they are wrong about the only five per box thing as that instantly ups the squad cost (For ten) in Australian to over Eighty-F**king-Dollars!

I also don't get the idea of Seraphim and Sisters in the same box. We either have Footsloggers in high-leap or pirouetting pose or we'll have the most static looking jump troops ever.


----------



## andrewm9

Kettu said:


> More from Ghost21;
> I've condensed their two posts into one.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to hope they are correct in a few regards. I hope and dream that they are wrong about the only five per box thing as that instantly ups the squad cost (For ten) in Australian to over Eighty-F**king-Dollars!
> 
> I also don't get the idea of Seraphim and Sisters in the same box. We either have Footsloggers in high-leap or pirouetting pose or we'll have the most static looking jump troops ever.


If they mix the 2 then it will have to be 5 or the cost will go up even more since there a metric crap ton of guns to jam in there along with backpacks. Maybe I'm alone in this but I'd rather there be 5 with 2 of all the special weapons and 1 each of heavy weapons. But I don't want them to be mixed with the Seraphim. I doubt they will becuase that woudl basically be all of our troops of all sorts in one box with only the Repentia being any different.


----------



## Azezel

Am I the only person who actually wants Seraphim who are standing on the floor?

I have little interest in replacing most of my metals with plastic - but I'm quite looking forward to plastic Seraphim that I can pose properly - standing with both feet on the floor shooting bad guys.


----------



## ohiocat110

Azezel said:


> Am I the only person who actually wants Seraphim who are standing on the floor?


Yeah, probably. :grin:

I don't mind the "floaty" tiptoes look of the current model. I also modded my Superior a bit, bending her right leg back to make it look like she's leaping, and mounting her on a plastic rod to get her up a bit. Looks pretty nice pointing her sword and up in the air.

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with sharing a base model for Sisters and Seraphs. Most of my Blood Angel jumpers are converted Tacticals (bought used en masse) with a jump pack slapped on, and my wallet is thankful for it. A build-your-own option is always nice, especially when units like Seraphs lean toward odd numbers.


----------



## Winterous

I hope they give Seraphim Jetpacks, because it'd be really appropriate I think.


----------



## TheSpore

so im gettin these rumours that sisters aren't getting a new book and that its all gonna be updates done in white dwarf. I give this rumour no creedance what so ever it just doesn't match up nor make any since at all...


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

TheSpore said:


> so im gettin these rumours that sisters aren't getting a new book and that its all gonna be updates done in white dwarf. I give this rumour no creedance what so ever it just doesn't match up nor make any since at all...


We've heard. I think it's bull though, as people said the same thing about DE just months before they hit the block with what they have now. It's just the usual suspects trolling.


----------



## Midge913

TheSpore said:


> so im gettin these rumours that sisters aren't getting a new book and that its all gonna be updates done in white dwarf. I give this rumour no creedance what so ever it just doesn't match up nor make any since at all...


I think that the WD update thing is a crock of shit....... It failed miserably with the Blood Angels and I don't see them doing it again. Its my opinion that since the only person to ever to have mention a WD update is Blood of Kittens, I put no weight in this rumor at all. As MetalHandkerchief said trollers gonna troll.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Midge913 said:


> MetalHandkerchief said trollers gonna troll.


Well :blush: it takes one to know one :secret::read:


----------



## Kettu




----------



## TheSpore

yeah i wasnt really giving it much creedance at all either but just thought ide throw it out there to the rumour mill since well you know its all we ever really have to go on since GW treats their codex releases as if they were matter of national security


----------



## Midge913

Love that video Kettu:rofl: never seen it with the animated face though. Makes it ten times funnier


----------



## TheSpore

my wife thinks that trololo guy is scary as hell


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Pfft, the best one is with the Heavy Weapons Guy


----------



## Kettu

Well, that does it.
Even if there is a new Sisters of Battle codex coming. 
Even if these miniatures are the greatest thing ever and cure cancer just buy looking at them. 
Even if Sisters become bigger then Marines themselves and receive update after update. 
I won't be able to buy them.

Sorry about the off topic post but really, looks like I will *HAVE* to give up this hobby. I just will not have the money for the 100% empty profit markup.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> Well, that does it.
> Even if there is a new Sisters of Battle codex coming.
> Even if these miniatures are the greatest thing ever and cure cancer just buy looking at them.
> Even if Sisters become bigger then Marines themselves and receive update after update.
> I won't be able to buy them.
> 
> Sorry about the off topic post but really, looks like I will *HAVE* to give up this hobby. I just will not have the money for the 100% empty profit markup.


So is this thing true?
And what exactly does it mean? Only those internet shops etc., or would you ONLY be able to get the products at GW shops?


----------



## Kettu

As I understand it, GW is making it impossible for Northern Hemisphere Internet sellers to sell to Southern Hemisphere.
Thus All my future, if any, purchases will have to be from Aus based groups.
GW aus is priced at close to 100% over what buying their product in USA or UK would be.
Aus retailers will sell anywhere between 5% to 20% off from the Aus GW price but still hardly near the saving if i bought straight from, say, Maelstrom.

If this is true then I have just lost my prime means of continuing the hobby and will have no choice but to give it up as I simply do not have the money.

I can't imagine what GW is thinking here and I can't imagine this will result in many going to GW instead but rather just quitting or going to alternate sources that GW Can't police, like ebay.

I do have a cousin France though, maybe I can work out a third party system with them. (note to self, learn French)


----------



## Kettu

This is only indirectly related to Sisters, and if anyone hadn't figured this one out already then slap yourself.
You guys remember the old rumours floating around that Sisters may be in the 6th ed box? Ghost21 made a comment about who it would be and, guess what? It isn't the Sisters.

Again, I have merged their two posts together for convenience sake.



ghost21 said:


> it isnt its chaos n imperial...
> ...its space marines (boo!)


----------



## Azezel

What'll happen, Kettu, is that people will buy kits here in blighty, and list them on Australia's ebay. Obviously, they will be more expensive than you're used to, but still far less than your local GW.

Or hell - if it comes to it, I'll give you my paypal details, tell me what you want and I'll send it on. Better companies then GW have tried to fight the internet and they've not won yet.


As for the starter set... I can see an upside to Sisters not being in the starter set, since I'm not sure I actually want MadCowCrazy to sexually rule me like a king.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Heck, if this is real I will buy and ship models to anyone in the world for whatever it costs me to do so.


----------



## Irbian

And this one...?

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/05/10/network-news-breaking-sisters-rumor-news/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Pfft, that has been debunked as mad ramblings from BoS. If it turned out to be true it would only be short lived as the Sisters are rumoured for later this year or early next year.


----------



## gen.ahab

MadCowCrazy said:


> Pfft, that has been debunked as mad ramblings from BoS. If it turned out to be true it would only be short lived as the Sisters are rumoured for later this year or early next year.


If it is true than it(the codex) probably won't be out later this or next year.

BOLS isn't the only place I have heard that from.


----------



## Kettu

And again... :cray:




stinger989 said:


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.





stinger989 said:


> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.


So no Sisters, No means to buy cheap product, No reason to stay in the hobby.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> So no Sisters, No means to buy cheap product, No reason to stay in the hobby.


They aren't not getting a codex update, they're getting a rules update in the mean time while they can actually get a GOOD codex release for them.
Not ideal, but better than a bad codex release.


----------



## Kettu

You do know that last time Sisters got a WD update they didn't get a codex for four years.
That codex was Witch Hunters.

So already, they have bad history with such an event.

Then when BA got their WD update, that was three years before a codex.

So GW has shown that this isn't a stop-gap measure or something to welt our appetites. This is a F**king cop out, something they do when they have dropped the ball so far and so fast they need years to fix it.

*[EDIT]*

I still think this WD dex rumour is crap, personally, but if it is true, I seriously doubt I'll stay in the hobby for much longer.
I was waiting on DE for years before I lost all interest in them and it's getting that way with the Sisters as well. 
ATM they are the only real reason I'm here for the long haul, they are the only army that interests me.
I've been working on my small Fantasy armies in the meantime but even they aren't really enough to keep me in the hobby.


----------



## Synack

I have a feeling GW want to update all the dexes before 6th Edition and there's probably not any time to actually get the full codex done.

I would have liked a new full dex, but anything is better than nothing.


----------



## Azezel

Synack said:


> I have a feeling GW want to update all the dexes before 6th Edition and there's probably not any time to actually get the full codex done.


Not that again.

Never been the case - every reliable source has debunked it.


Back on topic: The white Dwarf thing at least meshes with what Jes said about models (that they were a long way off) and what BB said about the Sisters 'dex being the last of the old ones to be updated.

It also seems likely that Sisters will be the last 'dex of fifth edition, which would put them Q3/4 next year by all accounts.

If this WD rumour is true, when can we expect it?


----------



## Shandathe

Well, if we assume 1) the Necrons soon rumours are true, 2) they'd try not to tread on the Necrons feet TOO much, and 3) they'll take two WDs... To do it before Necrons, it pretty much has to be the very next one, for June.

If that's not the point, we're suddenly at least three months further(more likely 4 or 5), and you'd think there was plenty of time to make a full Codex for a DE-style revival rather than half-assing it a la WD BAs.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> If this WD rumour is true, when can we expect it?


BoS said before the Necron release, this would mean we could expect them this month as "it" also said it would be split over 2 WD. If they are before Necrons that would mean we could expect them to be in the June, July and/or August issues of WD.

I have my doubts but rumours say we will get something this year, if it's a WD or a real dex who knows.

I would hope we got some sort of model release with it, a plastic Repressor would be the easiest kit for them to pump out since it's just 4-6 pieces that need to be made into plastic.

Then again it all depends on what sort of "update" it is, personally the only thing I would expect GW to do would be remove the allies rule, remove the assassins, Inquisitors, IST and Karmazov without adding anything new or changing the points costs, not even for Rhinos. I would be really surprised if they added anything at all.


Sisters were the last dex before 3ed and the WH last dex before 4ed if I'm not mistaken and it has been said Sisters will be last before 6ed.


----------



## Shandathe

Yep. It's tradition for the Sister Codex to be last, and have a large amount of stuff made utterly useless with the new Edition that follows it.

After all, the Marines are first after a new Edition, and they *obviously* have to be superior to dem women...


----------



## Kettu

Umm... Madcow, you seem to have me and Azezel confused here.



Azezel said:


> If this WD rumour is true, when can we expect it?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More bad news....



Stinger989 said:


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.
> (...)
> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.
> (...)
> well i did just play sisters yesterday and moped up at a tournment so they are still totally viable. granted it was only a 20 person tourny.
> 
> when 6ed comes out sisters will get a boost, but then all shooty armies will with what my source has said so far.
> 
> my source has never been wrong before so im going to trust him that the sisters are going to be getting a two part wd release, maybe in november but they are still in the rough stages of development.





Kettu said:


> Umm... Madcow, you seem to have me and Azezel confused here.


Lol wut? I pressed the quote button? I must have been trying to multiquote or something.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> More bad news....


Mad ramblings, huh?


----------



## Shandathe

You know... Given the current state of things... a WD spread done right(that is, an actual revision rather than redoing the current PDF) might not actually be a bad thing. I WANT a Codex, but...

Trim the Inquisition units that have moved to Grey Knights. Updated point costs alone would go a long way to add to our lineup of usable units (Mostly looking at the PEs and Repentia there), then there's things like the Priest they might've actually put some THOUGHT into this time around. Add one or two new units and restore Helena and Praxedes to their rightful (if deceased) status, and things actually might be looking up.

The thing that's important is that it would need to come with new models. The time we've been without an affordable squad-sized box of basic Troops is getting to be ridiculous.


----------



## rasolyo

How nice. Today was the day I convinced myself to make some real progress painting up my immolators.

Fucking hell.


----------



## AlexHolker

I know how you feel. The possibility of a Sisters release is the only thing sustaining my interest in 40k, and with a single exception every rumour we've heard in the past two months has been horrible.


----------



## Shandathe

Horrible or not, I don't believe them just yet. Fortunately, what's in the June issue is going to be proven one way or the other pretty fast.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Mad ramblings, huh?


I'm actually starting to give up, soon I might actually start to think the WD idea is a good one... GWs gremlins seems to have made their way into my head...

I wouldn't mind a WD release if it was actually an UPDATE to the current rules, points costs and units but GW has done nothing but release shit when it comes to the sisters and PDFs.

The problem I see is that GW wont address any problems at all, they will not adjust points costs, not even updating the Rhino cost with the IA ones. They will not add units, wargear or anything else.
The only thing they will do is remove everything that is now in the GK codex, put up some large advertisements for the GKs with a small picture somewhere of some Sister models and that's it. Nothing more...

This is the standard I have come to expect from GW when it relates to the Sisters of Battle.


----------



## Shandathe

I apparently have started thinking that... Screw it, if it could be done right for the Grey Knights and even the Dark Eldar aren't languishing anymore, it can happen to us.

Have Faith.


----------



## Azezel

I'm betting on a fluff piece where Sisters get butchered on a biblical scale. Anyone brave enough to take that bet?


----------



## Shandathe

Not me. That ALWAYS happens. From Armageddon to the Grey Knights, all the way to Sororitas Special Character entries in our own damn Codex. It's even in the army mechanics. We live (and die) by martyring ourselves.


----------



## Necrosis

If this is true I'm going to quit 40k and start playing Warmachine.


----------



## Kettu

Sorry Azezel, already placed that bet with my local.

Also, to quote myself from /tg/ a month ago.


Kettu said:


> Well, as it stands the Sisters of Battle codex needs to have them Purge a Chapter, not just a made-up-on-the-spot chapter but one with at least a paragraph or two written about them.
> Needs to have them kill some Grey Knights.
> Needs to have them win at something for one in their entire existence without them all dying.
> 
> What we will get though, will be...
> Canoness McIdie
> Canoness McMartyr
> Living Saint Gotnuked
> And the lovely tales about how they almost won at the battle of shaggydog, almost survived the scouring of Rocksfalls, Almost did something in the purging of Pointless and
> theybeatupsomehereticsafewyearsback


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> Well, as it stands the Sisters of Battle codex needs to have them Purge a Chapter, not just a made-up-on-the-spot chapter but one with at least a paragraph or two written about them.


How about the Rainbow Warriors?

They were purged once before but they...er, got better?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

more from ghost21



ghost21 said:


> theres going to be a nother plastic set for sisters that wil contain lots of bling too, the two sets will have everything
> 
> but there will be 1 set for normal sisters n seraphim


How many models on the other set?


ghost21 said:


> its about 10


Is that the Repentia or something new?


ghost21 said:


> its the repentia


----------



## Azezel

So... Our line troops come in boxes of five, but our rare-as-hens-teeth Elites come in boxes of ten.

It's another winner.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm actually hoping Repentia become Troops, where does the idea come from that they are really rare? To me there seems to be quite many of them around.

Repentia as Troops could be quite scary if they got the Scout and Fleet rules and got cheaper.

If they are really getting their own kit I'm guessing you will be able to field allot more of them. If they stay Elite I would expect you to be able to field 3 units of 20 and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a special char that could make the troops.


Hahaha, guess GW has taken some of my suggestions into account 



ghost21 said:


> well repentia are like sisters scouts .. urm now ... oh damng it !


----------



## Azezel

God damnit...

Everything we've ever heard until now is clear that a Sister has to serriously mess up to be made Repentia. Making them troops is utterly against fluff, making them... sigh. Making them scouts is beyond the pale.

Because apparently we're space marines now, with the serial numbers filed off. I might've guessed.


----------



## Shandathe

Well, our line troops currently come in boxes of 3, so it's sortofmaybe *like* an improvement? :no:

As for Repentia rarity, you'd hope the number of 'failed' Sisters to be relatively low, and between the fact that they charge into combat near-naked and armed with a melee weapon, I expect the attrition rate to be utterly horrendous in a 'Conscripts under Chenkov' kind of way.

*edit:* Calm down Azezel... deep breaths... it's just rumors.


----------



## gen.ahab

How accurate has Ghost's information been in the past?


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> How accurate has Ghost's information been in the past?


"Never" since he only just started posting Necron/SoB rumors after the GK release.


----------



## Azezel

Shandathe said:


> Well, our line troops currently come in boxes of 3, so it's sortofmaybe *like* an improvement? :no:


Silver linings aren't what they used to be...



Shandathe said:


> *edit:* Calm down Azezel... deep breaths... it's just rumors.


Indeed. There is still hope. (Hope also isn't what it used to be).


----------



## gen.ahab

Vhalyar said:


> "Never" since he only just started posting Necron/SoB rumors after the GK release.


Well than why are we even talking about him if he has never been proven to be accurate in the past? If what he is saying is true, then yay, but honestly, I will take BOLS or someone else over this dude.

EDIT: I suppose we shouldn't ignore him outright, but I would take EVERYTHING he says with several freight loads of salt.


----------



## Shandathe

Azezel said:


> Silver linings aren't what they used to be...
> <snip>
> (Hope also isn't what it used to be).







The future ain't what it used to be... Doesn't help that nobody on Warseer where this ghost is posting seems in any way interested in looking for confirmation beyond the one source.

... and is bloody _cheering_ for Repentia as Scout!Sisters.


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> Well than why are we even talking about him if he has never been proven to be accurate in the past? If what he is saying is true, then yay, but honestly, I will take BOLS or someone else over this dude.
> 
> EDIT: I suppose we shouldn't ignore him outright, but I would take EVERYTHING he says with several freight loads of salt.


He got Harry curious and he encouraged him to keep posting, and then various other rumors appeared that meshed with his.

As a reference, that's exactly what happened with Stinger. Poster appears out of nowhere, posts some information, a few months down the road it turns out to be extremely accurate. So yeah, don't take his word for granted, but I wouldn't totally discount him for now.


----------



## Shandathe

I find it, at the very least, hard to believe that after years of being completely ignored (or worse) a Sisters of Battle update would appear in the very next White Dwarf without any sort of warning beforehand.


----------



## rasolyo

Shandathe said:


> I find it, at the very least, hard to believe that after years of being completely ignored (or worse) a Sisters of Battle update would appear in the very next White Dwarf without any sort of warning beforehand.


Would they do that? I mean, not even on the back page of a previous issue? Or an "Incoming" newsletter? Christ, even 2nd wave models are given an advance order email.

The overall impression that I'm starting to get from these rumours (not that I didn't know already) is that GW is just half-assing it on the Sisters. Personally, I could have waited until the new codex, no matter how late. They managed to do that with an actual DE release, why can't they do that with Sisters? I don't know the history of the Blood Angels WD codex, but it seems easier to squat an army that doesn't have an actual codex anymore.

Any more good news, MCC? :suicide:


----------



## exsulis

Midge913 said:


> I think that the WD update thing is a crock of shit....... It failed miserably with the Blood Angels and I don't see them doing it again. Its my opinion that since the only person to ever to have mention a WD update is Blood of Kittens, I put no weight in this rumor at all. As MetalHandkerchief said trollers gonna troll.



The Blood Angel update being a bucket full of poo had to due more with the complete failure that was the Dark Angel Codex(which the BA WD Dex was based on). :angry: :ireful2:


----------



## Purge the Heretic

In regards to ghost 21's rumors:

The box sets mentioned still give me pause.

If it is normal sisters and phim, then where are the heavy weapons? Standard troop boxes normally have at least one or two heavy options, but no heavy weapons were mentioned in the sprue descriptions.

I think we can be confident that anyone coming new to the sisters once we finally get a full redo won't be using chunky metal heavy weapons...so why no info on a retributor box?

Or did he say these two that are ready now? possibly to be released with the WD update?


----------



## Kettu

Repentia are Sisters who have or have seen themselves to have failed the Sisterhood in a major way. When this occurs they ceremoniously stripped of their armour and equipment and mourned as having died.
They then don a robe made from the torn remains of their previous robe, have their head shaved (The Hair style is as symbolic as everything else) and are given a Eviscerator and live apart from the Sisters.
In battle, groups of the Repentia are lead by a Mistress to charge the enemy, in order to find forgiveness and salvation in death.
They are a literal Forlorn Hope.
An Order of Sisters of Battle will never have many Repentia on hand. If they did they would need to seriously work out what was happening within their ranks. And are never viewed as an expendable resource, One which would be readily depleted when used but never expendable.

In games terms they *(SHOULD)* form a lovely anti-tank or really, anti-everything unit.
However, the 0-1 option in the codex was perfectly fitting. You shouldn't need more then one squad. Besides if you were taking more then that the Canoness would really have to see where the problem lay.

The idea that you could now not only buy Repentia in larger numbers but may even be REQUIRED to have any kind of Infiltration/scout or even just a CC unit really starts to bug me.
Has the Sisterhood suddenly become populated solely by ladies with Extreme Guilt Complexes?

If these rumours are true then I don't think I'll even recognise the Sisters when they are updated. They'll be some strange foreign parody being sold under the same name. The 'Transmorphers' to the Sisters 'Transformers'.

I... Really don't know if I should even be hopeful any more.


----------



## AlexHolker

Kettu said:


> In battle, groups of the Repentia are lead by a Mistress to charge the enemy, in order to find forgiveness and salvation in death.
> They are a literal Forlorn Hope.


I agree with your explanation, but not with the implementation. Rather than having them charge in like Leeroy Jenkins and fouling the Sisters' lines of fire, I'd prefer them as a counter-charge unit that redeems themselves by holding off the enemy while the others regrouped.

The mechanism I suggested when I mailed the dev team was that Repentia would grant the Hit and Run USR to other Sister's units when they entered a combat.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> Making them scouts is beyond the pale.


I think you misunderstood this (then again I can't be 100% sure) but I seriously doubt they would be the Sisters scouts. The Scout rule however I could totally see them being given.

From my understanding the Sisters Repentia and Penitent Engines are the first to enter any combat as if I remember correctly "they rush ahead of the main force in a desperate need for redemption".

The Scout rule and Fleet is something I've always thought would be perfect for the Sisters Repentia and Penitent Engine.

With the Holy Rage rule this would mean they could scout 7-12" or outflank and the same goes for PE. With Holy Rage they are both at a disadvantage but if you could get them that closer to combat or outflank they would become allot scarier rather than something to laugh at.

Sister Repentia as Troops or a SC that makes them Troops and Penitent Engines in Fast Attack (dare I say a SC that make them Troops? I'd love this :crazy, with the Scout and Fleet rules is the way I was considering them in my Ordo Sepulturum dex.


----------



## Kettu

AlexHolker said:


> I agree with your explanation, but not with the implementation. Rather than having them charge in like Leeroy Jenkins and fouling the Sisters' lines of fire, I'd prefer them as a counter-charge unit that redeems themselves by holding off the enemy while the others regrouped.
> 
> The mechanism I suggested when I mailed the dev team was that Repentia would grant the Hit and Run USR to other Sister's units when they entered a combat.


Originally they were part of a squad and if the squad was charged they would counter charge the enemy leaving the main squad unmolested.
They would inevitably die but the enemy is now standing 4" away from the Sisters who get a lovely turn of free-shooting to make.
This was in the Citadel Journal days.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> I... Really don't know if I should even be hopeful any more.


I'm pretty sure that the sky is falling, but what hope remains goes something like this:


* Jes said in November that Plastic Sisters had not even been begun, and would not be started in the immediate future (implication was no sooner than June at the earliest).

* Jes is not only a sculpter, but head of the plastics department, so even if he himself is not on the Sisters project, he would have accurate information about the project.

* A new plastic kit requires a lead time of around 12 months - if everything goes well (Harry), and Sisters had problems which Jes admitted had yet to be solved in November. So even if they started that day, it's unlikely that the kits will be ready by the end of the year.

* Ghost21 claims to have seen sprues, and that the Sisters will get a WD update. We've just established that sprues are unlikely to exist at this moment, and WD updates never come with models. If Ghost is wrong about one thing, we have little reason to trust the others.

* Stinger989 - who does have a good rep for knowing what he's on about - backs up the idea of a WD update, but he has NOT seconded any of Ghost's other rumours, such as kits and troop Repentia.


From this, this is what I believe:

1) Sisters will get a White Dwarf update before the end of the year.
1a) The update will have minimal changes and its purpose is solely to drive the last nail into the coffin of allies.
1b) There probably will be minor updates to point costs.
1c) Inquisition units will likely not be present, but copy & pasted Zealots might, who knows?
1d) No model kits will be released to accompany the WD update.

2) The Sisters will receive a full codex in the second half of 2012.
2a) Plastic Sisters.


----------



## AlexHolker

Azezel said:


> * Jes said in November that Plastic Sisters had not even been begun, and would not be started in the immediate future (implication was no sooner than June at the earliest).


Where are you getting your information?


----------



## Azezel

Rather than copy and past it I'll just direct you to post #2 of this very thread.


----------



## Synack

If we recieve a WD update now, I can't see us getting a new codex in 2012 too. Probably new models, but not a whole codex.


----------



## TheSpore

I honestly doubt these rumours because they don't add up one bit


----------



## Azezel

Synack said:


> If we recieve a WD update now, I can't see us getting a new codex in 2012 too. Probably new models, but not a whole codex.


Instinct tells me that the sole point of this update, from Games Workshop's perspective, is to get shot of allies. It's essentially a glorified FAQ, methinks.

That being the case, it oughtn't have any long-term impact on the codex release schedule.

The new Sisters codex will turn up when the models are ready, in around 12-18 months time.


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Instinct tells me that the sole point of this update, from Games Workshop's perspective, is to get shot of allies. It's essentially a glorified FAQ, methinks.
> 
> That being the case, it oughtn't have any long-term impact on the codex release schedule.
> 
> The new Sisters codex will turn up when the models are ready, in around 12-18 months time.


I dont know where this PDF update stuff is comin from but I still say they will be after the necrons.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm with TheSpore.

Hope springs eternal warriors, and all that.


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> I'm with TheSpore.
> 
> Hope springs eternal warriors, and all that.


at least some one is on my side


----------



## Shandathe

I *want* a codex. I'd prefer they hurry up on that... I don't really believe the WD rumours. It's possible, maybe, and IF the opportunity's taken to correct point costs to something more in line with everyone else, it might even have merit.

Still... Codex. And models. It's been a year since we could buy a basic Sisters squad.


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> I *want* a codex. I'd prefer they hurry up on that... I don't really believe the WD rumours. It's possible, maybe, and IF the opportunity's taken to correct point costs to something more in line with everyone else, it might even have merit.
> 
> Still... Codex. And models. It's been a year since we could buy a basic Sisters squad.


I agree they need to push forward on it and stop beatin their meats with a monkey wrench with thumbs up their asses and get a move on. They have neglected the army long enuff same goes to the crons its flippin time.


----------



## Azezel

TheSpore said:


> I dont know where this PDF update stuff is comin from but I still say they will be after the necrons.


Stinger989.



Stinger989 said:


> well i just got some bad news from my source, take it as you will.
> 
> sisters are going to be in a white dwarf spread....so no "real codex" for us.
> 
> needless to say i was not happy.....
> and faith points got nerfed....still in the development stage though.





Stinger989 said:


> this is not a BOK echo, it is what is going to happen with them as they need a proper book and gw is going to wait to do one, so as of now we are getting a band-aid for the sisters in the form of WD.....i was very upset when i found out
> 
> I did hear some interenting stuff about 6ed but thats off topic and i can not elaborate too much about it yet.


Unlike Ghost21, Stinger989 has a track record of accurate rumours.


----------



## Shandathe

Meh, we'll see. It's only another week until the next WD I think. If we have to wait anyway, it might not be a bad thing - you'd think at least the really obvious things like the Repentia and the Rhino would get a fix (seriously, transports aren't really optional in 5th. Including the Searchlight and smoke launchers the SM version comes with, the Space Marines' basic is 19 points less. To add insult the injury, the higher price we pay comes with only the one fire point. The only good news is that Extra Armour is 10 points cheaper).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I believe the first people to report on the PDF codex were the Eternal Warriors even back when they were Dice Like Thunder and this was years ago. I know I commented on it in my GK rumours thread.

I know someone at the time commented that they were the only people claiming the Sisters codex would be a PDF and not a full release.
This whole PDF thing is really really old. I started collecting rumours back in 2009 and I'm sure it came around at the start of 2010.


----------



## Synack

I'm a pro Stinger believer, but in this case I *want* him to be wrong.


----------



## Shandathe

MadCowCrazy said:


> This whole PDF thing is really really old. I started collecting rumours back in 2009 and I'm sure it came around at the start of 2010.


Yeah, but back in the day it turned out to just be the 3rd ed codex(missing a few pages, but still) for DH and WH as they weren't reprinting them. The DH have turned into the Grey Knights again since...

I still don't believe. I'm willing to accept it's not the worst thing that could happen, though.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Yeah, but back in the day it turned out to just be the 3rd ed codex(missing a few pages, but still) for DH and WH as they weren't reprinting them. The DH have turned into the Grey Knights again since...
> 
> I still don't believe. I'm willing to accept it's not the worst thing that could happen, though.


Actually they did not refer to this but to the actual codex being PDF, they did talk about the DH and WH online PDFs but I'm 100% certain a podcast has been stating for over a year that the Sisters dex will be PDF and released shortly after the GK dex.


http://theeternalwarriors.com/
Listen to ep.20 and they will confirm that they were talking about it nearly or over a year ago, it's at 50:20 into the podcast.

firemanguy who is their rumours source also confirms that Sisters will be getting a PDf update, when they dont know but it's coming it seems.

November is the month allot of people keep on mentioning but that would be after Necrons and not before them?


----------



## Azezel

About Ghost21:

On the Warseer rumour thread, in defence of his veracity as a rumourmonger, he said that he'd posted High Elf rumours before.

Well, I did some digging and he _did_ post High Elf rumours back in '07 - however, all the rumours _I could find_ were _inaccurate_.

That's not to say he didn't post some accurate rumours that I could not find - or that his SoB rumours are not on the money. I'm just pointing out that he has been wrong before.


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> I'm just pointing out that he has been wrong before.



And he must pay for it :angry:

JK :biggrin:


About the wd codex... if they are having so many problems with the sculpt... maybe it is possible they want to provide the codex, so all the codex are updated... and later, with the sculpts, the true codex


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I still hold ghost21 with allot of scepticism because I had never heard of him before he started posting Necron and Sister rumours. Harry has given hints though to him being correct about some of his rumours.

We'll see after the codex comes out what proves to be true and what doesn't.
We are dealing with rumours in either case so everything should be taken with an unhealthy dose of salt.


----------



## rasolyo

Irbian said:


> About the wd codex... if they are having so many problems with the sculpt... maybe it is possible they want to provide the codex, so all the codex are updated... and later, with the sculpts, the true codex


This doesn't make sense to me. If the codex is definitely on its way (within 12~18 months) then I don't see the reason for putting in effort for a WD/PDF update.

Unless the codex is a far way off.


----------



## Katie Drake

rasolyo said:


> This doesn't make sense to me. If the codex is definitely on its way (within 12~18 months) then I don't see the reason for putting in effort for a WD/PDF update.
> 
> Unless the codex is a far way off.


They did the same thing with the Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy I think.


----------



## rasolyo

Katie Drake said:


> They did the same thing with the Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy I think.


Well I hope it's nothing like the FAQ they did for DA/BT, Stelek's latest rant is implying that they will be updated _after_ 6th ed Space Marines.


----------



## SilverTabby

Weren't Blood Angels released in WD about a year before the Codex came out? It's not unheard of, and that temporary update wasn't terrible. And, if it's just a WD update you can choose to ignore it until an official codex comes out...


----------



## Kettu

Blood Angels...
According to my Google-Fu it was across the May and June issues of White Dwarf 2007.

So three years.

Sisters of Battle had the same treatment _(Although only a single issue)_ back in 2000 but I don't know the date. That makes it three to four years as well.

However, Warriors of Chaos is a sole exception so far to this as the dex was not to 'get you by' for several years but as a replacement for their previous dex that had just been rendered obsolete by the release of Daemons.

It added nothing to the army, only took away choices that would not be in the new dex that was well underway at the time.

I seriously doubt that the rumoured Sisters dex is to repeat the WoC scenario, as all I can imagine would be removed is Inquisitors, Assassins and allies. _(WoC lost literally a third of their army)_
Rather this would be to 'hold us over' until a new dex would be released. _(E.G WD SoB & BA three year gap.)_

This is where the problems start to arise.

If the WD rumours are true then the ones of a release next year are wrong and it'll be 2013 earliest. _(Sans an EXTREEMLY late 2012 release following 6th ed but that is the SM release slot if anything.)_

Or both rumours are right in which case the WD will be nothing but nerf. _(Any more nerf and you could play dart-tag with it)_ But will sadly be the obvious hint to the direction the dex is going to go.

Or the WD rumours are wrong, there is a full Dex next year and we have absolutely nothing till then.

You know, when 5th ed came out way back when and JJ said that all dexes would be brought to current before the next edition but Sisters were at the 'end of the cycle', I said on one of these forum sites _(Can't remember which)_ that Sisters would not get anything till 2012 earliest.
I was being sarcastic and a cynic at the time _(when am I not?)_ and I was told off by a few people that Sisters would see an update well before then.

Would it be bad form to find those people and gloat?


----------



## Irbian

rasolyo said:


> Unless the codex is a far way off.


My point exactly


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Kettu said:


> Would it be bad form to find those people and gloat?


Gloat away...there are far too many optimists in this world, they need to be stopped. unish:


----------



## TheSpore

optmists live longer than pecimists


----------



## rasolyo

TheSpore said:


> optmists live longer than pecimists


Hence the gloating to even out things. :so_happy:


----------



## SilverTabby

On the point of "all codexes brought to current", I maintain the position that as Main rulebooks are developed over the course of two years, all books released in the year prior to its release -are- current. Grey Knights and all that follow it will be fine with the new edition. 

The only thing that can mess with that are decrees from on high that an aspect of the rules has to be changed at the last minute. These decrees are fortunately fairly rare.


----------



## Azezel

That certainly explains why my Battle Sisters are so usefully immune to Minor Psychic Powers.

I understand that Ork players have more axes to grind than usual on that front too.

the signs have always pointed to Sisters being the last of this edition, and it seems very likely that there'll be some elements that simply don't fly. Either irrelevant in or made useless by the new edition.

All we can do is hope that the changes favour us more than hurt us, much like Fifth's mech/melta focus did.


----------



## Creon

Well, I just declare all psychic powers that I encounter to be "minor", and ignore them  I hope they don't PDF an update and delay the Sisters more.


----------



## TheSpore

well with the recent streak of fuck yous from GW im sure a PDF is next on their list on how to tell their customers to fuck off or they may just say fuck the other armies dicontinue them wow I said fuck 4 times in two sentences.


----------



## Azezel

Something just occurred to me.

I want an update for Sisters. I mean, who wouldn't.

'Alright Old Man, what do you actually want out of this update?' I ask myself.

Um...

Now that I come to think of it, I have a ton of Sisters, nice models too and paintjobs that aren't going to get much better.

How about rules? Well... I've lost one game this year, so the codex can't be that bad, in fact, it just won the Throne of Skulls.

So, now that I think about it, why exactly am I so eager for an update? I really don't know. The only thing I can think of is the _removal_ of the Inquisition elements, and I never use them anyway so it's all one.

Funny old world, eh?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You want an update to bring the Sisters into line with the rest of 40K. Sisters are still fairly competitive as long as you stick to one army build, Immolator spam and melta spam.
You want an update to give you choice, when you look at each section of the book it should not be obvious what to take and what to skip. There should be more good options than you can field, allot of variety as well so no matter your play style (in regards to the army you chose) you should be able to field something that fits your taste.

Personally I want to be able to field Repentia and Penitent Engines without being laughed at by 5E dexes. I want Retributors to be a a difficult choice to ignore in regards to the Exorcist. I want more options, allot more and preferably I want them all to be Sister units.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Small news blurb

As I'm sure allot of you remember I sent a letter to Robin Cruddace with my idea for the faith system and some other general ideas, thoughts and so forth.
I received a letter from him today and it goes as follows.



Robin Cruddace said:


> Dear Daniel,
> I just wanted to drop you a quick line to thank you for your recent letter. Unfortunately
> the number of letters I receive means that I can't reply personally to all of them, but I
> did want to let you know that I had received and read yours, and really appreciated
> the fact that you took the time to write. Please don't hesitate to get in touch again; I read
> all of the mail I receive and find it really helps to keep me in touch with the grass
> roots of the hobby. Rest assured, your ideas and suggestions have been 'added to
> the melting pot'.
> 
> Sincerely
> Robin Cruddace
> 
> PS. The Sisters of Battle are indeed one of my favourite armies and I completely
> agree with you on your comments about them excelling in the 12-18" range. In my
> mind they are typidifed as a close-ranged shooting army, and the Acts of Faith are
> what helps to give an edge in a fight (and hence make them feel unique). I also think
> you're 'on the money' in regards to not giving them plasma, lascannons or rocket
> launchers - in my opinion an army is as much defined by those weapons they do not
> have as well as those they do.
> 
> PPS. I'd also like to thank you for your kind gift of chocolate, something all Games
> Developers appreciate whilst writing a codex.


So what does this mean? Well nothing really, it doesn't confirm anything or that it indeed Cruddace who is writing the codex. I have never received a "personal" letter from one of the designers before so if I'm wrong in the following please correct me.

The first part is probably a template they have which they use to send to everyone and then they use the PS to add some personal lines in regards to the letter they received.
If Robin is indeed the designer I feel at ease after reading what he wrote, I feel confident enough that our beloved Sisters wont turn into Brothers of Battle.
No las, plas or rockets is what defines the Sisters to me and if he happens to be the codex writer I feel confident he wont add those space marine weapons to the Sisters.
I'm really happy with the letter and I get the impression that he really cares about the Sisters and also understand what they are and how they fight.

I sent a Cloetta Sports chocolate brick with the letter, I figured if I gave him something yummy he could not simply eat it and throw my letter away :crazy:

All in all I'm more confident than ever that the Sisters codex will turn out all right and in spirit with the Sisters theme.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

TheSpore said:


> well with the recent streak of fuck yous from GW im sure a PDF is next on their list on how to tell their customers to fuck off or they may just say fuck the other armies dicontinue them wow I said fuck 4 times in two sentences.


Well since there was no punctuation or structure, it was one sentence really. On fucking poor sentence :laugh:


----------



## TheSpore

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Well since there was no punctuation or structure, it was one sentence really. On fucking poor sentence :laugh:


Sorry I had a nerd rage moment! I have since had a cigarette and now I feel better.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> All in all I'm more confident than ever that the Sisters codex will turn out all right and in spirit with the Sisters theme.


And filled with chocolate-smudge fingerprints. :sarcastichand:


----------



## Kettu

So I was window-shopping today (Need a few spare windows ) and ended up in GW after a time.
So, I decided to star comparing prices on the various items on sale and when I was looking at the DE and GK stuff it suddenly struck me.

The rumour of the 'All in one' box of Sisters with only five girls has suddenly taken on a different note to me.
The rumour is that Seraphim are included in the box first so, no, there will not be ten girls per box but five. (Look at all the recent elites kits and the such. Scourges, Terminators, Death Company, etc...) They are all five man kits for money making purposes.
Now look at the price of those kits.
No, it's ok, I'll wait.

And yeah, if this pans out then to get a ten girl squad, Sisters are barely dropping in price from the current single blisters.
And are becoming even more expensive then when they were all in metal.

And yet, for some reason the Sister kit rumours seem possible.
Why?
Because the army needs lots of plastic, right now. GW would have to be aware of this and so to save on production lines and costs, you merge it where ever you can.

And thus the problem continues as to merge all of this shit means you have ZERO variation across the force.

[edit]
Sorry for this but it's been bugging me since then.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Anyone read the latest WD yet? Any hints at this SoB WD release? or if this Murderus Skies is more than just the DE flier and what this Fantasy thing is about?


----------



## Kettu

Wait... Maybe I'm missing something but are we expecting Sisters to be mentioned in the next WD?
I thought the WDex rumour wasn't even until September earliest.


----------



## Shandathe

The rumours of a Sister WDex are fairly specific about it happening before the Necron codex. Rumour places the Necron codex at August (September at the latest).

Ergo, to have two WDs in time they HAVE to be the June and July ones.

That's good. I'll like having this one disproven.


----------



## Azezel

As I recall, the rumour was that it'd be split over two issues as well. So, yeah...


----------



## aboytervigon

MadCowCrazy said:


> "I'd also like to thank you for your kind gift of chocolate, something all Games
> Developers appreciate whilst writing a codex."


Chocolate? Chocolate!? Chocolate!!!?


----------



## aboytervigon

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'd also like to thank you for your kind gift of chocolate, something all Games
> Developers appreciate whilst writing a codex.


Choclate? Choclate!? Chocolate!!!?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Wait... Maybe I'm missing something but are we expecting Sisters to be mentioned in the next WD?
> I thought the WDex rumour wasn't even until September earliest.


As has been mentioned the rumour said that the Sisters WD release would be before Necrons and split over 2 WDs, if we get Necrons in August this means it would have to be in the June and July issues of WD. I seriously doubt it would be in the August WD unless they wanted to do some sort of Sanctuary 101 battle report.

So if there is any credibility at all to this rumour it will be in this months WD, either in it or on the last page showing us what to expect next month. Then again the next month blurb could be reserved for that Fantasy thing.
I guess it depends on how big a deal they want to make out of it, and judging from their previous behaviour in regards to the Sisters it might just be a small blurb with rules in the bottom corner of a page with a huge advert for Spheeeezeee Maaahhhhrreeeeeennneeeezzz, probably Grey Knights.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> ...judging from their previous behaviour in regards to the Sisters it might just be a small blurb with rules in the bottom corner of a page with a huge advert for Spheeeezeee Maaahhhhrreeeeeennneeeezzz, probably Grey Knights.


I call that optimism. :sarcastichand:

---

Ok then, although I would expect a Necron x Sister BR, anything to further snuff the Sisterhood.

A few more Qs; how certain are the rumours of an August/September release for the Necrons?
And would they advertise the month before the alleged WDex? Did they do that for the BA?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem now is that GW apparently decided to stop announcing releases until 1 week before the actual release. This means no more incoming emails and probably no news in WDs as to what might be coming the next month.

This would mean we will not know for sure about the Necron release until August or last week in July.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> The problem now is that GW apparently decided to stop announcing releases until 1 week before the actual release. This means no more incoming emails and probably no news in WDs as to what might be coming the next month.
> 
> This would mean we will not know for sure about the Necron release until August or last week in July.


Wait, so 4chan was right about this?
So, no announcements about anything?

... Hmm, I can't find the thread I started when I heard this.
Was it deleted?


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I guess it depends on how big a deal they want to make out of it, and judging from their previous behaviour in regards to the Sisters it might just be a small blurb with rules in the bottom corner of a page with a huge advert for Spheeeezeee Maaahhhhrreeeeeennneeeezzz, probably Grey Knights.


Would the advert look like Irbian's avatar?



Kettu said:


> A few more Qs; how certain are the rumours of an August/September release for the Necrons?
> And would they advertise the month before the alleged WDex? Did they do that for the BA?


I believe that 'crons can no longer be ordered by independant suppliers, which is usually a sign that the army will be updated very soon.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> I believe that 'crons can no longer be ordered by independant suppliers, which is usually a sign that the army will be updated very soon.


Like the Sisters of Battle from a 1-2 years ago?


----------



## Shandathe

Always with the negative waves, Kettu... Always with the negative waves. :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Always with the negative waves, Kettu... Always with the negative waves. :grin:


Meh, he's just like me, a "realist", you might call us pessimists but we only see the truth!

The no more incoming I saw on dakkadakka and as far as I could tell it's true, it was also said that when you sign up for the GW newsletters they have removed the "you will receive incoming newsletter for up and coming products" line that used to be there.

We still haven't received any incoming for the razorwing, if it doesn't come next week we will know for sure if this rumours is true.

This is the thread I read it at :
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369325.page


----------



## Shandathe

Pessimists is what optimists call realists... It was the right movie to quote. Moriarty often had a point  

Anyway, between the Incoming thing and the new WD, that does mean it's going to be an interesting week, isn't it?


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> Would the advert look like Irbian's avatar?


Well, the one who made it will be more than happy then...


----------



## Synack

The new WD comes out this week doesn't it?


----------



## Shandathe

The 28th. Mind you, there's no Sisterdex in there unless they hate us so much they don't even announce that there is.

Could we please consider the WDex rumor well and properly killed unless actual evidence to the contrary arises?


----------



## Shandathe

Have actual WD. Lots of Finecast, good amount of Dark Eldar, no Sisters that I've seen.


----------



## Lucius_the_Eternal

Shandathe said:


> Have actual WD. Lots of Finecast, good amount of Dark Eldar, no Sisters that I've seen.


OUT OF CHAR:

I have posted this before but im gonna post this again just for you so in hope that it might give a lil peace of mind for ya. Its not much but it did actually come form GW in a personal email to me.

Greetings!

 Thank you for writing in to us! The Sisters of Battle are not getting discontinued. Last year the same thing happened to Grey Knight models on the website and look at what was just released! Unfortunately, we do not know the release date or any information regarding the new Book or models. I apologize about the inconvenience. 


Thanks!


----------



## hungryugolino

So no news? Also, I'd really drop the "personality" thing if I were you. You can't pull it off and it comes off as silly anyway.


----------



## Lucius_the_Eternal

hungryugolino said:


> So no news? Also, I'd really drop the "personality" thing if I were you. You can't pull it off and it comes off as silly anyway.


OOC: 

Im about to go off back to my original name on here I was havin a lil fun. It has been a stressful week this past week and and with all the GW hate i was just trying make some folks feel better about the hobby and have a lil fun.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

GRRHAHAHA

Are we all making fun of Lucius again?

Sweet.

:laugh:


----------



## TheSpore

Kharn said:


> GRRHAHAHA
> 
> Are we all making fun of Lucius again?
> 
> Sweet.
> 
> :laugh:


Lucius will come back one day... He always comes back


----------



## Shandathe

Only until he gets himself killed by some nobody who then dies mere seconds later  His brand of immortality has a few holes...


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

Shandathe said:


> Only until he gets himself killed by some nobody who then dies mere seconds later  His brand of immortality has a few holes...


Like his body! 

I just tend to get back up.


----------



## hungryugolino

Alright, folks, good news! You're getting new fluff! The bad news? It's by Matt Ward. 

Prepare to accept your Ultramarine overlords.


----------



## rasolyo

hungryugolino said:


> Alright, folks, good news! You're getting new fluff! The bad news? It's by Matt Ward.
> 
> Prepare to accept your Ultramarine overlords.


Matt Ward? In my vag- err, codex?

It's more likely than you think.


----------



## Necrosis

Sisters of battle will now be female space marines who were created by the ultramarine cause there gene-seed is do pure.
Does it make sense? No, does Draigo make sense? No.


----------



## rasolyo

Necrosis said:


> Sisters of battle will now be female space marines who were created by the ultramarine cause there gene-seed is do pure.
> Does it make sense? No, does Draigo make sense? No.


And don't forget that they get molested on a regular basis in the Schola Progenium.

Y'know, to 'cleanse' them.


----------



## Kettu

hungryugolino said:


> Alright, folks, good news! You're getting new fluff! The bad news? It's by Matt Ward.
> 
> Prepare to accept your Ultramarine overlords.


Source? Because last I heard it was Robin 'Cant balance an army to save his life' Cruddace.
Of course, this is according to Fail-mongers BoKs.

Ward is, allegedly, doing Necrons and Bretonnians.

---

If Ward is doing the Sisters then we have to be afraid for different reasons then the Ultrasmurf and SistersBloodStainedGray Knights. 
Have a look in your 5th ed BRB people. Look for fluff on the Sisters of Battle specifically.
It ok, I'll wait...

...

...

...and?

Ward wrote all the fluff for the 5th ed BRB.
Kind shows what he thinks of the army now doesn't it?


----------



## Kettu

WILD MASS GUESSING HERE!

But it certainly seems to have dragged out some rumour mongers as well.

To quote Ghost21:


ghost21 said:


> necrons are due for aug n sisters for nov unless sth happens


Who is then backed up by BramGaunt


> September- possibly Ogres? Nope, awesome secret release.
> 
> Oct- maybe Sisters? more like ogres
> 
> Nov- something fantasy? more like sisters =)


To which Harry added


Harry said:


> "Nope, awesome secret release".
> 
> Well it's not a secret any more.
> 
> There are one or two cool things coming for fantasy in there somewhere before Ogres as well.


and


Harry said:


> I originally heard that was going to be the last 40K release this year. But lots of folks seem to think Sisters have taken this slot.
> I think they will either be last release this year or first next year and sisters will be in the other slot.


I'll keep you guys posted if there is more.

By the by, anyone every heard of BramGaunt before? Know if he has a good track record?


----------



## Biellann

Harry


Harry said:


> I meant it's existence was no longer a secret.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Bramgaunt has many names in different places, and he has come out with a few big rumors that were true that no-one else had come out with...he has also been wrong on a thing or two, but they were generally a bit speculative in nature.


----------



## Synack

IIRC his info was mostly right with GK.


----------



## Azezel

Sisters in November?

Codex or White Dwarf?

If Codex, how about models?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Either way they should be unveiled at Games Day UK since DE were in Nov last year and if Sisters are in Nov this year they should be up on display at GD.


----------



## mahavira

I doubt I should be reading as much into this as I am (ie anything), but on the various lists of finecast figures, I am not seeing any Sisters, Necrons, or Ogres.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

mahavira said:


> I doubt I should be reading as much into this as I am (ie anything), but on the various lists of finecast figures, I am not seeing any Sisters, Necrons, or Ogres.


Or Tau.

10char


----------



## rasolyo

Shandathe said:


> Have actual WD. Lots of Finecast, good amount of Dark Eldar, no Sisters that I've seen.


Does it still have the 'Next Month' page on the inside of the back cover?

Was meaning to ask this in light of the rumours of GW's plans to restrict the flow of information on new releases, forgot about it for some time.


----------



## JaqTaar

rasolyo said:


> Does it still have the 'Next Month' page on the inside of the back cover?


It does. It only announces Storm of Magic though.


----------



## Kettu

MORE!!!



Achaylus72 said:


> What i have been told of the super secret September release is to be drum roll please.
> 
> A Warhound Titan-Chaos Warhound Titan.
> 
> This was told to me by a GW store manager.
> 
> I can also say that as far as long term rumours are as far as Chaos concerned that it will be several years before Chaos Space Marines will get anything new, sometime in 2013 around it's next Codex release. In reality this would be like 5 years of getting nothing except what plastic Termies and Possessed, oh and the fincast stuff.
> 
> Another strong rumour is Sisters of Battle to come out with a brand new Codex and range in January/February 2012 plus an additional 3 to 4 waves throughout the year of 2012.
> 
> Also for next year a brand new 40K starter Box


Ok, prepare your salt-shakers everyone.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

If GW starts bringing Titans into plastic and to WH40K core rules, I will go hara kiri on their asses. Mostly because I know their SCHMERREEN-wanking asses won't produce my Tiger Shark in plastic.


----------



## Shandathe

... uhrr... I'm fairly sure it can't possibly be a Chaos Titan because of simple economics. Very few people need one. If it's released, it'll be done by FW.

The remainder seems to need a bit less salt: CSM being neglected is nothing new (and we're bing neglected far, far better  ), the SoB timeslot is one of those mentioned before, and as for a new 40K starter box... Well, I'm expecting a new Edition right after the new SoB as per tradition, so that wouldn't surprise me at all.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Shandathe said:


> ... uhrr... I'm fairly sure it can't possibly be a Chaos Titan because of simple economics. Very few people need one. If it's released, it'll be done by FW.


Unless. They've been planning to bring titans to the basic 40K game/ codices. They have done more inept things in the past, this would just be icing on the cake.


----------



## Winterous

Shandathe said:


> ... uhrr... I'm fairly sure it can't possibly be a Chaos Titan because of simple economics. Very few people need one. If it's released, it'll be done by FW.


Um, Chaos Space Marines have a habit of getting Imperium vehicles and putting spikes on them.
It wouldn't be hugely different with a Titan


----------



## Ninja D

There's also the fact that GW has produced a series of Baneblade chasis tanks, all kinds of variants for the Stompa, the Warhound is the same "level" type of vehicle/unit. And it's your entry level super heavy walker much like the Stompa. Combine that with the possibility of rolling the Apopalypse rules into the base game in the next edition and viola!... not so hard to imagine plastic Warhound kits produced by GW.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Ninja D said:


> Combine that with the possibility of rolling the Apopalypse rules into the base game in the next edition and viola!...












Viola!


----------



## Kettu

Umm... MetalHK, just a little nitpick...
Your sig, its Codices, not Codexes.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Kettu said:


> Umm... MetalHK, just a little nitpick...
> Your sig, its Codices, not Codexes.


Haha. True, but I didn't make the sig. Someone else did. Therefore I reserve the right to be lazy and not improve it since the message gets across!


----------



## Ninja D

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Viola!


 
Heh, I deserved that... and I totally thought I was spelling it wrong and second guessed myself.


----------



## mahavira

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Or Tau.
> 
> 10char


Actually Tau get an Ethereal with an honor blade.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

mahavira said:


> Actually Tau get an Ethereal with an honor blade.


Yeah because that isn't coming in plastic, obviously. What is no sign of however, are Broadsides, Vespid, Pathfinders, Ethereal with Symbol of Office, the Special Characters etc.


----------



## Winterous

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Yeah because that isn't coming in plastic, obviously. What is no sign of however, are Broadsides, Vespid, Pathfinders, Ethereal with Symbol of Office, the Special Characters etc.


And that means......
NEW MODELS PLANNED!
Obviously.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Winterous said:


> And that means......
> NEW MODELS PLANNED!
> Obviously.


Yes, obviously. Which supports the rumors of these kits from before we even knew about Finecast.


----------



## ashikenshin

a pretty cool image found by a dakkaite by the name of: petre

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=16800006a


----------



## Kettu

Where on GW's site is that?

Also, the file name is a bit telling.
m1461021a_ITA_Mauro_Gamesday2010review_Art_XL5

Here we go.



pretre said:


> edit: File name is m1461020a_ITA_Mauro_Gamesday2010review_Art_L5
> Hmph.
> 
> Google says 'Benjamin Mauro is a concept artist and designer for the gaming and feature film industries, whose credits include work for WETA Workshop'


----------



## ashikenshin

> Was poking around GW's site to find hidden content and found the following:
> 
> 
> 
> Pic for a blogpost about one of the video games or something older that I've missed previously?
> 
> edit: File name is m1461020a_ITA_Mauro_Gamesday2010review_Art_L5
> Hmph.
> 
> Google says 'Benjamin Mauro is a concept artist and designer for the gaming and feature film industries, whose credits include work for WETA Workshop'


this is what petre said, someone commented that it probably is a cover for a novel or something from black library. Others that it may be a movie. I'm still hoping is a "incoming" article. chances are slim though.


----------



## Winterous

Is it just me, or does that look like a diorama?


----------



## Kettu

Not just you Winterous.
Although the pic is to small to really tell.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Looks like CGI to me. Either that's bloom, or a stylized painting. A camera wouldn't overexpose the picture in that way if it was a macro shot.

EDIT: Probably some unused concept for DoW2: Retribution


----------



## hungryugolino

Mind you, GW evidently has good taste in concept artists.


----------



## ashikenshin

I don't think it's CGI, but the gamesday 2010 thing makes me lose hope.


----------



## JaqTaar

If you change your nation setting to Italy, the link shows the image as part of the rules presentation for the Games Day fan art competition 2011. So it's probably the winner of the 2010 one.

Edit:
Checking the 2010 GD report, it is ineed that:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...x=5&aId=13600019a&multiPageMode=true&start=6#


----------



## gen.ahab

Azezel said:


> Sisters in November?
> 
> Codex or *White Dwarf*?
> 
> If Codex, how about models?


That should be it.


----------



## Azezel

Care to elabourate, Ahab?

Do you know something we don't know or are you speculating?


----------



## gen.ahab

Azezel said:


> Care to elabourate, Ahab?
> 
> Do you know something we don't know or are you speculating?


Just what my sources tell me. He tells me that people in GW are saying that we are going to get a stopgap measure in the form of a WD rules release. Really all I can tell you. Take it or leave it.


----------



## Azezel

That tallies with what I've always said, that plastic Sisters simply cannot be ready yet.

And if it is a WD update then I suppose November is about the only spot left for it.

Time will tell.


----------



## gen.ahab

Azezel said:


> That tallies with what I've always said, that plastic Sisters simply cannot be ready yet.
> 
> And if it is a WD update then I suppose November is about the only spot left for it.
> 
> Time will tell.


Exactly, he also says that plastics are not within the immediate future. Sad really, but that is how it will probably turn out. I'm being told that the next imperial codex will be a SM chapter. So that should me, what, one last xeno after that before sixth?


----------



## Azezel

gen.ahab said:


> I'm being told that the next imperial codex will be a SM chapter.


Not to mock, but that's not exactly Earth-shattering news, given that fully 3/4 of Imperial 'dexes are Marines and no-one expects the Guard to be updated any time soon.

If he could tell us weather that 'dex is before or after Tau, or before or after 6e that'd be helpful.


If 6e does come out summer next year I really can't see a space for _three_ codeces between now and then. 'crons are pretty much a lock for this autumn. There'll probably be a codex early next year - legend has it that's Tau or Sisters, that's about the earliest the Sisters models could be ready by, and that's pushing it and then if Sixth hits, it'll be Marines (possibly black marines if they're in the boxset, otherwise blue) immediately thereafter.

That'd push Sisters back at least until the tail-end of 2012. If that is the case, that'd explain a white Dwarf update now. GW want to kill off Allies, and don't want to wait another year to do it.


----------



## gen.ahab

Before, I believe. You are going to have another imperial release and then a xeno of some form, if the pattern holds true, whic it hasn't of late. I really am not sure on the order, I haven't asked, but it will either be Tau or a Marine codex next. In any case, I will be sure to ask him later.

The order is just me speculating so far.

I was simply saying that it would be marines to reinforce that it won't be sisters.


----------



## Azezel

So that'd be... Actually, that's interesting.

That'd be 'crons this autumn. Then Black Templars (at a guess) next spring, then 6E, then Tau.

Which would mean it's only logical that Tau would be in the starter kit, alongside BT.

They normally like to put just updated/about to be updated armies in the starter kit.


----------



## gen.ahab

That could very well be true. I've been hearing a bit of chatter on Black Templars and many have been expecting a new codex for some time now. It could be a starter set cenetered around the Damocles Crusade. Though, tbh, it could go either way; they could produce either DA or BT. If I were to guess though, I would say they would capitalize on WHDMO and go with BT.


----------



## Shandathe

Speaking of Sister models, someone might've noticed before but even the Repentia squad is now gone - we're officially blister-only.

I suspect the only army in a sorrier state right now are the Squats, and it's looking more and more likely I'll be able to pick up space dwarves from Mantic before I can get Sisters from GW. I'm just glad I bought most of what I needed february last year - just in time.

As for SM chapters... Whatever one it is, other than the handful of people who insist Their Marines Are Different, *who cares*?


----------



## gen.ahab

Shandathe said:


> As for SM chapters... Whatever one it is, other than the handful of people who insist Their Marines Are Different, *who cares*?


The 50+% of the hobby that plays them? It established the order of future releases. I get that you mostly care about your sisters of battle, but, in the grand scheme of things, they aren't an important army. A starter set for an editions is a big thing and, since it will probably be marines, it would be nice to know which one, because they are different, especially the BT.

However, this is the SoB rumor thread so, admittedly, we should stick to that.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

gen.ahab said:


> would be nice to know which one


It's not like it matters, it's just another SM with a different colour and some specialised rules if it's not the blue ones.


----------



## gen.ahab

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's not like it matters, it's just another SM with a different colour and some specialised rules if it's not the blue ones.


They are vastly different armies. BT play differently, look different, and have vastly different fluff compared to EVERY other marine force.


----------



## rasolyo

Well, more time for me to expand my army I guess.

If it is indeed a WD dex as a stopgap, they might as well update some of the points costs in there to 5th ed.

They'd better :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

gen.ahab said:


> They are vastly different armies. BT play differently, look different, and have vastly different fluff compared to EVERY other marine force.


No they are not, only difference is a few rules, that's the only difference between SW, BA, BT, DA. They have a few different rules from Vanilla that makes the more specialized in some way. BA are fast, BT have terminators, SW have their wolves and shit, DA have their bikes or something.

Fluff doesn't mean shit when it comes to rules, what is the difference between my Sisters killing for faith while BA kills for blood or IG for their commander. When you put down your models it wont make them any different. I might as well say I'm killing you to appease Nurgle but that doesn't give me any special powers.

If they could make the SM as different to each other as Eldar and Dark Eldar I'd be impressed but as it is every SM codex is just that, another SM codex. Heck even the new GKs turned into another SM codex, this time it's the psychic Spheezze Mehreeenez.

/Rant over

All SM chapters should be in the Vanilla SM book, all you have to do is copy paste the army rules and special rules on 2 pages from each SM codex and you are pretty much good to go if you add 1 page with the "unique" units each SM dex has.

And dont start with how much bigger it would be, it would max be 20 pages more and they could easily remove some fluff or painting guides.



rasolyo said:


> Well, more time for me to expand my army I guess.
> 
> If it is indeed a WD dex as a stopgap, they might as well update some of the points costs in there to 5th ed.
> 
> They'd better :grin:


Pfft, the only thing they will do is update the current PDF with the removal of the Inquisitors, Assassins and IST plus Karmazov. If GW has thought me one thing it's that they never make a PDF update that's worth it's download space.
They didn't do any updates at all with the PDFs before so why should they start now? The above is most likely the only thing they will do.

/rant over

If they do indeed update the codex it will be VERY small changes, the above changes plus Rhinos now cost 35pts and they will call it a redone codex.
There is no reason they would update anything else unless there will be a model release with the PDF. Did they release any new models with the BA PDF? If they added something it would be the Repressor, it's the easiest kit to redo in plastic and is just 1 sprue to add to the Rhino box. They might even just sell the upgrade sprue but that wouldn't make any sense since then they couldn't charge you full kit price... or they might just do that...


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> All SM chapters should be in the Vanilla SM book, all you have to do is copy paste the army rules and special rules on 2 pages from each SM codex and you are pretty much good to go if you add 1 page with the "unique" units each SM dex has.


I disagree strongly, I think that Black Templars and Space Wolves NEED a separate codex.
Blood Angels are different enough to deserve one, but it isn't an absolute necessity.
Dark Angels, however, in their current state, are similar enough for merging into the vanilla codex to not be a bad idea, basically their only significant difference is their Bikes, Terminators, and Sammael / Belail.


----------



## gen.ahab

MadCowCrazy said:


> No they are not, only difference is a few rules, that's the only difference between SW, BA, BT, DA. They have a few different rules from Vanilla that makes the more specialized in some way. BA are fast, BT have terminators, SW have their wolves and shit, DA have their bikes or something.
> 
> Fluff doesn't mean shit when it comes to rules, what is the difference between my Sisters killing for faith while BA kills for blood or IG for their commander. When you put down your models it wont make them any different. I might as well say I'm killing you to appease Nurgle but that doesn't give me any special powers.
> 
> If they could make the SM as different to each other as Eldar and Dark Eldar I'd be impressed but as it is every SM codex is just that, another SM codex. Heck even the new GKs turned into another SM codex, this time it's the psychic Spheezze Mehreeenez.


You're out of your mother fucking mind. 

The game is a representation of the fluff, it means a lot.

Again, you can't just throw in all the codices to make a giant SM codex. One: it would be huge and cost a fucking fortune. Two: It would end up a bland POS. I might agree to a codex for non-codex adhering astartes and one for codex adherents, but not one giant one. Really SW need there own and so do BT, the rest can go into their own, but those two function on a vastly different level.


----------



## rasolyo

MadCowCrazy said:


> No they are not...


Now I'm typically not one to advocate civil discourse (love reading internet drama) and there are some chapters that I'd like to see have their own codex (I have this thing for white scars) and some not (DA/BT), but things being what they are now with Sisters clearly being on the way in some form or another:


----------



## ashikenshin

MadCowCrazy I agree completely and absolutely with your rant! stupid space marines and their different codices with a few differences and they claim they are completely different. Just because they have something more overpowered than the rest. meh I say fick'em and that's why I don't play them, I just painted the aobr marines and got fed up with them. Xenos and IG for me until a new SOB codex comes out.


----------



## Katie Drake

ashikenshin said:


> MadCowCrazy I agree completely and absolutely with your rant! stupid space marines and their different codices with a few differences and they claim they are completely different.


They're not completely different, but there are enough differences that they couldn't be adequately represented by the vanilla Marine Codex or something along those lines. The one that could most easily be put into a book with other Chapters would be the Dark Angels since they're so similar to Codex Chapters, but I expect the next Dark Angels book will change that by a considerable amount.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

gen.ahab said:


> You're out of your mother fucking mind.


Thank you :crazy:


----------



## Grogbart

Do we really hate Space Marines, or do we hate GW for sticking a codex up their arse everytime we turn around.

I think the different Chapters deserve thier own Codex. GW has seen to it, that they can all be played differently (not entirely different but quite different).
BUT, and I guess even the most thoroughly Space Marine differentiator will agree, they all share a huge amount of their units, vehicles and stats. So every second time a Codex is made, they are pondering about the same stuff again and again. 

So, different books for different marines, is fair.
But, it would be also fair for all the non-Marine players (those providing these rare occasions, Space Marines don't fight other Space Marines) to develop all the Space Marine Codices together in one go. Granted that Space Marines are the best selling army, they may even redo them twice, or even thrice as many times as any other codex. It would still leave more time for the rest of the armies.

Sadly finance department trumps fairness (and anything else for that matter!).
But why exactely they earn more, when chapter loyal players sit idle for ages waiting for their new Codex, while some kids run around with an unpainted army of Space Marines, claiming them to be, whatever the last codex was they bought, is something I can't quite comprehend AND (before someone starts explaining) don't WANT to!

My Opinion.


----------



## Kinglopey

Yeah, SM's really get shifted around, I have a buddy who's old GK were used as regular SM, then he added some Salamanders, then space wolves, and now they're all BA...

I mean I'm cool with proxing, a flamer is a flamer and Las on a dread is a las on a dread, but no body else can really get away with that.

Personally I'd love to see CSM get the same love, dunno if xenos are really set up for that, I know they had the Craftworld Eldar book, I guess something like that could get expanded... but that would be a lot of books to update... and we know how good GW is at that...


----------



## Shandathe

Ideally, GW would add a degree of separation to rules and models, or find a way to make small updates to codices to keep them in line power-wise. The models coming out at the current speed is acceptable. The ruleset needs a bit more speed and flexibility in its updating schedule - Even the things that everyone agrees obviously need fixing now take years.


----------



## Azezel

I suspect that GW is still somewhat afraid of the internet.

Ten years ago, the idea of publishing significant rules updates online would be very bad. Even in 2001 there were a lot of people without access to the 'net. I think GW is still opperating under the assumption that a web update would not reach everyone.

I believe that a once-yearly .pdf update - taking into account tournament results and on-going playtesting would be ideal.

It'd have obvious point modifications (Sisters Rhinos for 35 points) and explicit modifications of exploitable rules in both the core book and the codeces (like wound allocation shenanigans).

No more than once yearly, though.


----------



## TheSpore

One thing GW could do is expand upon existing armies by making an expansion that touches on every army rather than adding a rule set thats just gonna wind u in the BRB(i.e. Cities of Death). I agree their is no support game wise. Another thing I wish they would do is realse an entire line of models with their new codex instead of breaking the releases up in half. Im tired of seeing codexes with units that have no model to represent them and then converting like crazy to make a model and getting one 6 to 8 months since the dexs release.


Finally they need to seed the process of making these books a lil. they alienate too many players who are tired of waiting to play the army they already own.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

All the codicies should be PDF with Print on Demand if you want a full codex with fluff and pictures, a printed codex could be required for tournaments and to play in GW stores. The PDFs should be free and the printed one whatever it costs to make and ship out plus profits.

This way people could download the rules for other armies to try them out, instead of having to buy a codex, read it and then realise they dont like it. This would make it so people would be more inclined to start new armies.

In December they should publish new points costs updates and balance changes since they dont release anything in December.

Every other month they should do a new model release for an army and codex update, a statcard with all the rules, points and everything in the box. This would mean that every army would get a new unit every 2 years and a codex update.
This would mean we could see model releases more often instead of having to wait 5+ years as we do now for a few new models.

There are so many things GW could change to make people more inclined to buy more and play more, but as things are....


----------



## bitsandkits

GW dont want people to buy armies based on rules, they are hawking models not rules, they want people to look at the cool models and build an army because they like the way the models look, if you buy an army based on its codex your doing it wrong


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

bitsandkits said:


> GW dont want people to buy armies based on rules, they are hawking models not rules, they want people to look at the cool models and build an army because they like the way the models look, if you buy an army based on its codex your doing it wrong


Ha! If you're trying to sell army entries based on models you're doing it wrong, is what I say


----------



## Helixfire

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Ha! If you're trying to sell army entries based on models you're doing it wrong, is what I say


Thats what GW decided to do with dark eldar with over half the models though.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Helixfire said:


> Thats what GW decided to do with dark eldar with over half the models though.


They also gave sensible and competitive rules to 99.5% of it's entries... So...


----------



## Maidel

bitsandkits said:


> GW dont want people to buy armies based on rules, they are hawking models not rules, they want people to look at the cool models and build an army because they like the way the models look, if you buy an army based on its codex your doing it wrong


Sweet jesus - the end is comming.

I AGREE with you.

Run for the hills!!!!


----------



## gen.ahab

MetalHandkerchief said:


> They also gave sensible and competitive rules to 99.5% of it's entries... So...


And the over all codex ended up being subpar, yet people still bought the models up like mother fucking hot cakes right when it came out, not knowing if it was a rotting POS or amazuzing.


----------



## Katie Drake

bitsandkits said:


> GW dont want people to buy armies based on rules, they are hawking models not rules, they want people to look at the cool models and build an army because they like the way the models look, if you buy an army based on its codex your doing it wrong


Yes, because people's preferences are wrong.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem I see is that they overpower new kits whilst making old ones less usable (Carnifex vs Trygon anyone? or how bout the Valkyrie?
It is strange they made the Pyrovore so shit though, it's a good looking model and since I love flame template weapons I'd like to use them more often but I just can't see myself spending the points for a unit that is only usable in a sporepod and only lives the round he comes down. If it fired like the hellhound 12" then place template it would be more desirable but as it is it's pretty much useless.

I feel sorry for you Tyranid players who like the model since you are going to have to wait another 8 years before a codex update...

The only armies were GW have managed to make most choices desirable are the ones where they have had to remake the entire range, like GKs and Dark Eldar. Almost everything is usable in some way with just a few useless units (Mandrakes and Daemonhosts).

This gives me hope that each Sister unit will be desirable in some way and that most kits will be interesting if not a bit OP because if anyone deserves to be OP, even if just until 6ed it's the Sisters of Battle. They have been curve stomped by almost every other race in 40k for 10 years now, it's about time they kicked some ass.

Tau is the only race I can think of where I have not read about them annihilating sisters.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> Tau is the only race I can think of where I have not read about them annihilating sisters.


Really wish I could source this but supposedly there is a short paragraph or so describing a stalemate between Sisters and Tau during the Medusa campaign all those years ago.

But yeah, the two factions probably have never even met.

Could you Imagine it though? St. Praxedes going head to head against Commander Shadowsun?
Perpetual Stalemate.


----------



## Tahiri

I guess we can view it as a good thing that no new Sisters, Tau or Necron models are being released as part of this Fine Cast thing. That should mean all of the above are getting their own new big releases sooner rather then later.


----------



## Azezel

Just a shame those big releases will likely be finecast...

Hate resin so much.


----------



## Catpain Rich

Azezel said:


> Just a shame those big releases will likely be finecast...
> 
> Hate resin so much.


But it's nice resin


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

gen.ahab said:


> And the over all codex ended up being subpar, yet people still bought the models up like mother fucking hot cakes right when it came out, not knowing if it was a rotting POS or amazuzing.


Dark Eldar sub par? I... Don't know what crack you're on. They may be less points efficient and definitely not as easy to play as Space Wolves or Imperial Guard, but along with those two armies they're the top 3rd army out there. As long as the player has a good eye-measuring skill and knows what to exploit, it's a should-win army.


----------



## gen.ahab

It is tier 3, tops, but we will not get into that. Besides, the fact remains they sold like hot cakes before anyone knew whether or not they were any good.


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Sooo, is a November release for the Sororitas still a reliable rumor? Well, as reliable as any rumor can be...

Just checking, I have such high hopes, I try not to but I really love my army and a November release would really be an Emperor sent gift.


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Sooo, is a November release for the Sororitas still a reliable rumor? Well, as reliable as any rumor can be...

Just checking, I have such high hopes, I try not to but I really love my army and a November release would really be an Emperor sent gift.


----------



## gen.ahab

Inquisitor_Win said:


> Sooo, is a November release for the Sororitas still a reliable rumor? Well, as reliable as any rumor can be...
> 
> Just checking, I have such high hopes, I try not to but I really love my army and a November release would really be an Emperor sent gift.


For a WD sisters rules update maybe. You won't get new models and you won't get a codex. Least, I doubt it.


----------



## gen.ahab

Inquisitor_Win said:


> Sooo, is a November release for the Sororitas still a reliable rumor? Well, as reliable as any rumor can be...
> 
> Just checking, I have such high hopes, I try not to but I really love my army and a November release would really be an Emperor sent gift.


For a WD sisters rules update maybe. You won't get new models and you won't get a codex. Least, I doubt it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

November is all we have to go at right now, there is a rumour that GW switched the Necron August release with the Sisters Nov out of spite for the rumour mongers just to prove them wrong. Sounds a bit silly but it also sounds exactly like something GW would do.

If it's a WD or codex release is still up in the air as is if there will be any models released. If they did release a model or two it could be either a finecast or two and the Repressor as it's the easiest kit to make into plastic with just a simple sprue needing to be done (plus box art and manual).

Most likely there wont be any Sisters models but perhaps Tyranid second wave or plastic Pathfinders and Vespid that has been rumoured to be released this year.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

November is all we have to go at right now, there is a rumour that GW switched the Necron August release with the Sisters Nov out of spite for the rumour mongers just to prove them wrong. Sounds a bit silly but it also sounds exactly like something GW would do.

If it's a WD or codex release is still up in the air as is if there will be any models released. If they did release a model or two it could be either a finecast or two and the Repressor as it's the easiest kit to make into plastic with just a simple sprue needing to be done (plus box art and manual).

Most likely there wont be any Sisters models but perhaps Tyranid second wave or plastic Pathfinders and Vespid that has been rumoured to be released this year.


----------



## Zion

I spent the better part of yesterday reading through this topic since I've been waiting for Sisters to become an army I could play [I started in 5th edition a couple weeks after GW stopped selling the boxes of Battle Sisters] and was curious on what the internet rumors had to say.

That said here is my speculation on what a White Dwarf rules update might include:

-Removal of Allies [already being done in GW sanctioned tournements, so this is just a given]
-Adjustments on wargear [frag/krak grenades auto-included in squads that don't have them, _perhaps_ some changes like the addition to bolt pistols for the Battle Sisters so they can shoot and assault [more important now than it used to be], smoke launchers and searchlights on the vehicles]
-Points adjustments on wargear [10 point meltas are the first thing that come to mind here]
-Overall points adjustment [35 point Rhinos, perhaps Celestine being brought down to 200 points for easier inclusion in an army]
-Adjustments of Inquisitors and other shared units with other codices to bring their points and rules in line with the other armies [I see this being the biggest and most likely]


_PERHAPS_ there will be some new rules or changes outside of this, but I really don't see them adding anything new or changing anything to drasticly in this update. I do hope they'll release the Sisters in Finecast until they release plastic kits. I've been waiting for a couple years now and finally caved and will be starting a Sisters army this week despite the lack of models available and how expensive the army is.


----------



## Zion

I spent the better part of yesterday reading through this topic since I've been waiting for Sisters to become an army I could play [I started in 5th edition a couple weeks after GW stopped selling the boxes of Battle Sisters] and was curious on what the internet rumors had to say.

That said here is my speculation on what a White Dwarf rules update might include:

-Removal of Allies [already being done in GW sanctioned tournements, so this is just a given]
-Adjustments on wargear [frag/krak grenades auto-included in squads that don't have them, _perhaps_ some changes like the addition to bolt pistols for the Battle Sisters so they can shoot and assault [more important now than it used to be], smoke launchers and searchlights on the vehicles]
-Points adjustments on wargear [10 point meltas are the first thing that come to mind here]
-Overall points adjustment [35 point Rhinos, perhaps Celestine being brought down to 200 points for easier inclusion in an army]
-Adjustments of Inquisitors and other shared units with other codices to bring their points and rules in line with the other armies [I see this being the biggest and most likely]


_PERHAPS_ there will be some new rules or changes outside of this, but I really don't see them adding anything new or changing anything to drasticly in this update. I do hope they'll release the Sisters in Finecast until they release plastic kits. I've been waiting for a couple years now and finally caved and will be starting a Sisters army this week despite the lack of models available and how expensive the army is.


----------



## TheSpore

I still don't give this whole WD update thing much creedence. It makes no sense nor does it seem to fit in with the scheme of things. The whole NOV codex sounds more correct and makes more sene IMO.

That necron switch thing though. That just sounds a lil odd. So far I havnt seen GW switch things around just to prove rumours wrong.


----------



## TheSpore

I still don't give this whole WD update thing much creedence. It makes no sense nor does it seem to fit in with the scheme of things. The whole NOV codex sounds more correct and makes more sene IMO.

That necron switch thing though. That just sounds a lil odd. So far I havnt seen GW switch things around just to prove rumours wrong.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

MadCowCrazy said:


> there is a rumour that GW switched the Necron August release with the Sisters Nov out of spite for the rumour mongers just to prove them wrong.


Heh, if that was the case we would see Tau Empire in august


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

MadCowCrazy said:


> there is a rumour that GW switched the Necron August release with the Sisters Nov out of spite for the rumour mongers just to prove them wrong.


Heh, if that was the case we would see Tau Empire in august


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> I still don't give this whole WD update thing much creedence. It makes no sense nor does it seem to fit in with the scheme of things. The whole NOV codex sounds more correct and makes more sene IMO.
> 
> That necron switch thing though. That just sounds a lil odd. So far I havnt seen GW switch things around just to prove rumours wrong.


The WD codex erratta makes sense if the models really aren't ready, otherwise it doesn't fit. IF we get a November release them I'll hedge my money on the old models getting a Finecast release until the new ones can be pushed as a second wave. Would it be the smart thing to do? Not really, but GW has made some silly choices in the past.

Am I the only one who thinks GW would benefit more if they were more transparent and offered their customers news on what was happening in the company [say...through White Dwarf?]? I'd been more behind Finecast and the price increase for the resin models initially if I'd learned that they were of a different composition than normal resin and the price increase was to help offset the roughly $2 Million USD the setup cost them. THAT I can understand and be a little excited to see. But to not say anything for a month after you stop selling metal models and then drop Finecast out of the sky and expect excitement from any of the customer base? That's a bit nuts.

Off-topicness aside, I'm not really sure what GW has planned for the Sisters, but if they are doing a WD release of some kind for Sisters I'm keen to see what it'll be.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> I still don't give this whole WD update thing much creedence. It makes no sense nor does it seem to fit in with the scheme of things. The whole NOV codex sounds more correct and makes more sene IMO.
> 
> That necron switch thing though. That just sounds a lil odd. So far I havnt seen GW switch things around just to prove rumours wrong.


The WD codex erratta makes sense if the models really aren't ready, otherwise it doesn't fit. IF we get a November release them I'll hedge my money on the old models getting a Finecast release until the new ones can be pushed as a second wave. Would it be the smart thing to do? Not really, but GW has made some silly choices in the past.

Am I the only one who thinks GW would benefit more if they were more transparent and offered their customers news on what was happening in the company [say...through White Dwarf?]? I'd been more behind Finecast and the price increase for the resin models initially if I'd learned that they were of a different composition than normal resin and the price increase was to help offset the roughly $2 Million USD the setup cost them. THAT I can understand and be a little excited to see. But to not say anything for a month after you stop selling metal models and then drop Finecast out of the sky and expect excitement from any of the customer base? That's a bit nuts.

Off-topicness aside, I'm not really sure what GW has planned for the Sisters, but if they are doing a WD release of some kind for Sisters I'm keen to see what it'll be.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> The WD codex erratta makes sense if the models really aren't ready, otherwise it doesn't fit. IF we get a November release them I'll hedge my money on the old models getting a Finecast release until the new ones can be pushed as a second wave. Would it be the smart thing to do? Not really, but GW has made some silly choices in the past.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks GW would benefit more if they were more transparent and offered their customers news on what was happening in the company [say...through White Dwarf?]? I'd been more behind Finecast and the price increase for the resin models initially if I'd learned that they were of a different composition than normal resin and the price increase was to help offset the roughly $2 Million USD the setup cost them. THAT I can understand and be a little excited to see. But to not say anything for a month after you stop selling metal models and then drop Finecast out of the sky and expect excitement from any of the customer base? That's a bit nuts.
> 
> Off-topicness aside, I'm not really sure what GW has planned for the Sisters, but if they are doing a WD release of some kind for Sisters I'm keen to see what it'll be.


Its just something I can't see the m doing thats all. It would be a bad move on their part, but at the same time it wouldn't if they really are experiencing a delay on new models for the sisters it would help sate those fans that have been waiting so long , but waht they should is exactly what you said give us e some damn insight on whats going on within the company. Thye make everything look as if they are infalliable and don't make mistakes. Like this new finecast stuff. We the consumers all know the switch was to help produce models cheaper, but the tell us oh its because we can give you a better quality product. Really, did they really think the public is that stupid. They remind of a corrupt government in a way. They would torture and kill and opposing member in society and they claim of he just went on a long long vacation, just to make it look like everything is peachy.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> The WD codex erratta makes sense if the models really aren't ready, otherwise it doesn't fit. IF we get a November release them I'll hedge my money on the old models getting a Finecast release until the new ones can be pushed as a second wave. Would it be the smart thing to do? Not really, but GW has made some silly choices in the past.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks GW would benefit more if they were more transparent and offered their customers news on what was happening in the company [say...through White Dwarf?]? I'd been more behind Finecast and the price increase for the resin models initially if I'd learned that they were of a different composition than normal resin and the price increase was to help offset the roughly $2 Million USD the setup cost them. THAT I can understand and be a little excited to see. But to not say anything for a month after you stop selling metal models and then drop Finecast out of the sky and expect excitement from any of the customer base? That's a bit nuts.
> 
> Off-topicness aside, I'm not really sure what GW has planned for the Sisters, but if they are doing a WD release of some kind for Sisters I'm keen to see what it'll be.


Its just something I can't see the m doing thats all. It would be a bad move on their part, but at the same time it wouldn't if they really are experiencing a delay on new models for the sisters it would help sate those fans that have been waiting so long , but waht they should is exactly what you said give us e some damn insight on whats going on within the company. Thye make everything look as if they are infalliable and don't make mistakes. Like this new finecast stuff. We the consumers all know the switch was to help produce models cheaper, but the tell us oh its because we can give you a better quality product. Really, did they really think the public is that stupid. They remind of a corrupt government in a way. They would torture and kill and opposing member in society and they claim of he just went on a long long vacation, just to make it look like everything is peachy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If Sisters are in Nov then we should get some info at Games Day UK, since I'm going there I will be digging around for information like I did last year. If Sisters are really scheduled for a full release in Nov then they should be the army on display at GD UK with codex and a few sprues on display like they did with Dark Eldar last year.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If Sisters are in Nov then we should get some info at Games Day UK, since I'm going there I will be digging around for information like I did last year. If Sisters are really scheduled for a full release in Nov then they should be the army on display at GD UK with codex and a few sprues on display like they did with Dark Eldar last year.


----------



## Kettu

A week after the UK GD is the Aus GD.

I was going to go, burrow my brothers hidden camera and micro voice recorder and wrangle anything and everything I could out of people but I'm really hard-pressed to justify the $75 price tag. _(Supa Nova, Australia's largest Anime and Pop-culture convention, is only $50 itself for a full weekend, with a further $10 off if you buy in advance. GW even use to be there till about three years ago)_ 

And besides, all the new things are only ever shown at the UKGD, I wouldn't be surprised if the Aus one didn't even have what was revealed at the UK one already.

As I live a $5 train trip away from Sydney anyway, I can't even justify it to myself as part of, say, a weekend away holiday. I migrate further each day just to go to TAFE.


----------



## Kettu

A week after the UK GD is the Aus GD.

I was going to go, burrow my brothers hidden camera and micro voice recorder and wrangle anything and everything I could out of people but I'm really hard-pressed to justify the $75 price tag. _(Supa Nova, Australia's largest Anime and Pop-culture convention, is only $50 itself for a full weekend, with a further $10 off if you buy in advance. GW even use to be there till about three years ago)_ 

And besides, all the new things are only ever shown at the UKGD, I wouldn't be surprised if the Aus one didn't even have what was revealed at the UK one already.

As I live a $5 train trip away from Sydney anyway, I can't even justify it to myself as part of, say, a weekend away holiday. I migrate further each day just to go to TAFE.


----------



## TheSpore

When is GD UK anyway...


----------



## TheSpore

When is GD UK anyway...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

September 25th, cost me about €150 last year in travel costs, seems to be a bit more expensive this year but should still be cheaper than €200 in travel costs.

All in all I will probably spend €300 on travel, food and 1 or 2 things at GD. Not really worth buying anything there since you can get GW models cheaper elsewhere.

Kinda silly you have to pay to get in to pay normal costs for models... no swag bag or anything like that either.... Should be a model called Castellan Greed based on the GW sales policy team...GREEEEEEEEEED...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

September 25th, cost me about €150 last year in travel costs, seems to be a bit more expensive this year but should still be cheaper than €200 in travel costs.

All in all I will probably spend €300 on travel, food and 1 or 2 things at GD. Not really worth buying anything there since you can get GW models cheaper elsewhere.

Kinda silly you have to pay to get in to pay normal costs for models... no swag bag or anything like that either.... Should be a model called Castellan Greed based on the GW sales policy team...GREEEEEEEEEED...


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Kinda silly you have to pay to get in to pay normal costs for models... no swag bag or anything like that either.... Should be a model called Castellan Greed based on the GW sales policy team...GREEEEEEEEEED...


INDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED...

Bastard multi-national companies :ireful2:


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Kinda silly you have to pay to get in to pay normal costs for models... no swag bag or anything like that either.... Should be a model called Castellan Greed based on the GW sales policy team...GREEEEEEEEEED...


INDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED...

Bastard multi-national companies :ireful2:


----------



## Maidel

I worked once at games day on the retail stand. I will never to this day understand why so many people buy so much stuff that they can pick up any day of the week in GW for the same price.

Now, when they used to prerelease stuff at games day - well that was worth buying because you generally got it a month in advance.


----------



## Maidel

I worked once at games day on the retail stand. I will never to this day understand why so many people buy so much stuff that they can pick up any day of the week in GW for the same price.

Now, when they used to prerelease stuff at games day - well that was worth buying because you generally got it a month in advance.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Noticed thread hit 50 pages so did a bit of cleanup. Every time a rumours compilation hits 50 pages I will save the last 10 pages and move the others to rumours round-up.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> Noticed thread hit 50 pages so did a bit of cleanup. Every time a rumours compilation hits 50 pages I will save the last 10 pages and move the others to rumours round-up.


ahhh saving space a must need


----------



## Bindi Baji

Maidel said:


> I will never to this day understand why so many people buy so much stuff that they can pick up any day of the week in GW for the same price.


Indeed, however pre-ordering forgeworld goodies and not having to pay for postage is always a plus


----------



## Azezel

Ghost21 is saying that Sisters will absolutely be 5/box. Not 5/sprue, which sounded fine, 5/*box*.

I don't see how he could be that certain unless things are very far along the production track. And he does sound certain, for all that we can never 100% believe any rumour.

Now, funny thing is - I still cannot see how there are any plastic Sisters right now unless Jes was flat out lying in November, or he's a flat out Wizard (as in 'has magic powers' rather than 'very good at his job').

HOWEVER, if plastic Sisters _do_ exist now, that increases the likelyhood of an actual codex, rather than a WD update.

It also increases the likelyhood of Jes Goodwin turning me into a frog for doubting him. At least he'll make me a good looking, highly detailed frog. That's how he rolls.


----------



## SGMAlice

I'd go with lying, being all sneaky like, but either way i like the way it sounds.
New Codex and 5 to a box! WooT!

SGMAlice


----------



## hungryugolino

5 per box for troops when you're going to take ten per squad? Has to be true, since this is GW we're talking about. (Knights, remember?)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

ghost21 seems to have access to the production process or something like that.
As far as rumours go his track record is 0 when it comes to 40k since his first rumours on that front were for Necrons and Sisters. How credible he is is a bit hard to determine atm but once we get either Necrons or Sisters we will know for sure.

5 Sisters per box sounds retarded, unless all Sister squads are now 5-10(20 for Battle Sisters). It could be 3-4 sprues per box or he could be looking at Seraphim & Celestian sprues. Then again it would make sense for GW to make 1 box for all 5 types of Sisters but the amount of excess bits would be silly as you would have to put 20-25 different weapon options into the box. A complete waste of sprue if you ask me, Dark Eldar got 2 boxes with 10 models so why couldn't Sisters get 1? For GKs it makes sense since they are such a small model count army and GW want's to maximise profits but with Sisters it would be nothing but greedy... just in line with GW policies then...


----------



## mahavira

In defence of GW, Grey Knights are somewhat a special case: they explicitly state that the line infantry of a GK army is expected to be terminators, and that Grey Knights in Power Armor are primarily specialist troops (Purifiers, interceptors etc.). Every other army in the game can buy base line troops in groups of 10 (before anyone brings up wracks, bear in mind that they are actually an elite choice that can be made troops, not base troops like warriors or wytches). Unless Sisters of Battle are due to be made a much more elite army than we have been led to believe (purged the Rainbow Warriors and got home before dinner?) a 5 member box for troops seems improbable.


----------



## Kettu

To C&P my comment on Warseer:
Which brings to question if there is so many extra bits in the box that all you need is just five more torsos to make ten, then *Why Not* just include those ten extra torsos?

It does sound to me that GW has gotten lazy, they don't want to do a thorough job on the Sisters, just a quick one.


----------



## Synack

5 per box sounds like crap, when the squad sizes can go up to 20.


----------



## Grogbart

Isn't there a 5-man box of IG, with easy to build, but only one pose possible models?
And wasn't there a rumour about difficulties with Sister Robes and posing possibilities?
This is wild Speculation, but could this 5 Sisters box be something similar to the 5 man IG box. The no posing feature making it possible to be produced while other Sister Sets suffer Robe-posing issues. Possible? Opinions?


----------



## andrewm9

Synack said:


> 5 per box sounds like crap, when the squad sizes can go up to 20.


You have to remember though that in the current codex all the other squds that this box would make the sqaud minimum is 5. Even if its 33 dollars US per box like grey Knights its still a savings compared to current prices assuming we get all the options. As we currently pay around 90 dollars US for 10 models with options.


----------



## hungryugolino

It's GW. Anything's possible.

Mind you, the Rainbow Warriors thing might be interesting. What if they did bring back that aspect? Not as their main role, but having them purge the odd renegade chapter would make them seem that much more...elite?


----------



## Azezel

hungryugolino said:


> It's GW. Anything's possible.
> 
> Mind you, the Rainbow Warriors thing might be interesting. What if they did bring back that aspect? Not as their main role, but having them purge the odd renegade chapter would make them seem that much more...elite?


Never going to happen.

Remember, GW actually _brought back_ the Rainbow Warriors. It was pretty much the Sisters' only cannon victory, and they retconned it out.

In these modern times, no-one gets to fight marines and win. Especially not the Sisters.


----------



## hungryugolino

When did they do that?


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Never going to happen.
> 
> Remember, GW actually _brought back_ the Rainbow Warriors. It was pretty much the Sisters' only cannon victory, and they retconned it out.
> 
> In these modern times, no-one gets to fight marines and win. Especially not the Sisters.


I never even heard of this


----------



## ashikenshin

I remember a picture of a sister shooting a rainbow warrior. But, I don't know where I saw it.


----------



## Azezel

hungryugolino said:


> When did they do that?


Whenever 5e was released with Prism, homeworld of the Ranbow Warriors chapter there on the galactic map. I believe it's also in the smurf codex. No word about the chapter being extinct or purged. So far as the book shows, it's a perfectly extant, healthy chapter.

EDIT: Oh, and I seem to recal seeing one on GW's website last year?

DOUBLE EDIT: Yup, here it is: Linky



ashikenshin said:


> I remember a picture of a sister shooting a rainbow warrior. But, I don't know where I saw it.


That picture accompanied the very first mention of the Sisters, back in Rogue Trader days.

Let me dig it up. Here we go:


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, they got it half right...


----------



## Shandathe

Was the Rainbow Warriors being purged actual canon? I don't think there was ever more than that picture about it...


----------



## mahavira

Page 30 of the 5E Marines Codex has Prism on the map but says Record Deleted. The purge is quite possibly still canon - there are no rainbow warrior paint jobs in the book (might be in How to Paint Space Marines, mind). Which is good - it is cosmically required that an army with the Fleur de Lis as a symbol destroyed the Rainbow Warriors.


----------



## Kettu

Hate to inform you about the Red Templars then.


----------



## Kettu

However, on the subject of Marine Purging, they should really have the Sisters wipe out a pre-established chapter, one with at least two paragraphs written about them previously.

You know, permanently alter part of the established mythos and back-story.


----------



## mahavira

Kettu said:


> Hate to inform you about the Red Templars then.


I know them (briefly considered using the color scheme before it occurred to me I have no skill at freehand). In any event, the Rainbow warriors still appear pretty purged so hopefully the future codex has a victory to mention.


----------



## Zion

Heck if they aren't going to let them kill off a Codex chapter the next best thing would obviously be [at the very least] killing off a Chaos war band of some kind or stemming insurrections and problems greater than "heretical uprisings". It's nice fluff but there really isn't a good way to represent that in the game unless they popped a Traitor Guard Legion or something.


----------



## Kettu

Sorry, Zion.
You'll never hear about the Sisters fighting against Chaos because Chaos has a secret and unbeatable weapon.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> Sorry, Zion.
> You'll never hear about the Sisters fighting against Chaos because Chaos has a secret and unbeatable weapon.


You mean the same weapon that could potentially wreck a Chaos Marine army [seriously I don't get the whole crazed table since the fluff says these guys want to die in battle since they're unwillingly entombed in the Dreadnought bodies...so shouldn't they only basically be pulling a Holy Rage and running at the enemy lines at the worst?]?

Anyhoo, I was just tossing out ideas. I'm rather prone to doing that. Either way I did notice the only real fluff I could see [thanks GW for not leaving it in the downloadable codex you twits!] was Sisters beating up heretics and going on long campaigns to purge them. Nothing on ANYBODY else. Which is sad since that makes sisters the only codex I've ever read where they don't even win against the other armies in it.


----------



## Azezel

What Kettu is refering to is the time when a single CSM Dreadnought murderised an entire Shrine World, inlcuding hundreds of Sisters and a Living Saint. As I recall it shrugged off Exorcist missiles, Meltas, Meltabombs and god alone knows what else, but was destroyed when a Space Marine threw an unpowered thunderhammer at it.

Of course, back in the day, the Sisters had their own Dreads.



















(Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't like to see Sororitas dreads return, I just thought it was worth pointing out the historical facts.)


----------



## andrewm9

Azezel said:


> What Kettu is refering to is the time when a single CSM Dreadnought murderised an entire Shrine World, inlcuding hundreds of Sisters and a Living Saint. As I recall it shrugged off Exorcist missiles, Meltas, Meltabombs and god alone knows what else, but was destroyed when a Space Marine threw an unpowered thunderhammer at it.
> 
> Of course, back in the day, the Sisters had their own Dreads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't like to see Sororitas dreads return, I just thought it was worth pointing out the historical facts.)


What do ya know? I have never seen that before. Where on earth was that orginally found? I assume in the bowels of some forgotten WD.

As for that bit of fluff about a Chaos Dread killing a shrine world. What story is that in?


----------



## Kettu

Fireborn

Oh, and the Living Saint didn't die (The only Sister not to), she just lost her divinity.:headbutt:


----------



## Shandathe

Sisters suffer from the Worf Effect a lot...


----------



## andrewm9

Kettu said:


> Fireborn
> 
> Oh, and the Living Saint didn't die (The only Sister not to), she just lost her divinity.:headbutt:


<Sigh> Unbelievable. And really how does a Living Saint lose her divinity? Its not like its some piece of wargear they carry around and can lose. It seems like there is this passive conspiracy to make Sisters look bad or go away since they are always getting killed or beat up in every peice of fiction. I can accept that Sisters will lose and will die to the last Sister before giving up but can they win sometimes too? Even in IG fiction they lose too


----------



## Azezel

andrewm9 said:


> What do ya know? I have never seen that before. Where on earth was that orginally found? I assume in the bowels of some forgotten WD.


Few people have. Despite what it says, Ephrael Stern was never interred in a Dreadnought - in fact, canonically, she's still alive and kicking, albeit hunted by the Inquisition for reasons too stupid to explain.

S'far as I know, the Sororitas Dreadnought was never anything but a limited edition some time in the mid-to-late nineties. Tracking down the details is very difficult.



Kettu said:


> Fireborn
> 
> Oh, and the Living Saint didn't die (The only Sister not to), she just lost her divinity.:headbutt:


Ah, I had forgotten the details.

Or perhaps repressed them. Sacrificing one's divinity indeed. It baffles the imagination.


----------



## Zion

....I can't really describe how annoyed I am that some writer expects people to believe that some Chaos Dreadnought could do all that but the Sisters could do nothing to stop it.

That's just a horrible way to treat them. Makes me really glad I don't read the Black Library books even more.


----------



## andrewm9

Zion said:


> ....I can't really describe how annoyed I am that some writer expects people to believe that some Chaos Dreadnought could do all that but the Sisters could do nothing to stop it.
> 
> That's just a horrible way to treat them. Makes me really glad I don't read the Black Library books even more.


Seriously a squad of sisters woudl just grab melta bombs and clamber all over it to explode themselves just to win against the enemy (especially one like that).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ephreal Stern is the protagonist in the Daemonifuge paperback comic, it was part of some short stories published in Warhammer Monthly or something like that. Then it was compiled into the 3 Daemonifuge paperback comics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_comics#Daemonifuge

There was a limited edition diorama which now sells for $100 on ebay.









The bad thing about the comic is that it ends in a cliffhanger, the story was never finished and it was really awesome. It basically shows how ignorant and spiteful the imperium can be.

Basically some Sisters and SM go to a planet, as they drop a Slaneesh cultist sabotages their ship, to find out what happened to some research team. The research team was studying ways defeat chaos or some such, they found out some really awesome stuff that would beat the shit out of chaos and compiled it into a book called Daemonifuge.
Of course something went wrong and all the scientists were sown together into thing called the screaming cage. Chaos is given knowledge about the book and set out to get it but the "good" guys get there first. Since there is no time for them to read the book to defeat the chaos forces the scientists forces the information into Stern.
Long story short she basically becomes a Living Saint hunted by chaos for the knowledge of the book and hunted by the Imperium because she has been deemed a witch.

I wont spoil it but it's a really awesome story but as I said it ends in a cliffhanger with her going to fight a Culexus assassin.

The Stern Dreadnought I had no idea existed.


As for Fireborn the girl isn't a Living Saint, she is referred to as a Living Relic. She has the ability to know the names of Daemons simply be being near them, for those that know about the power knowing a daemons name brings can understand that she is EXTREMELY valuable. If they can get her off the planet and into the hands of the Ordo Malleus they could basically secure the victory over every greater daemon in existence.

There is one catch though, she loses the ability if she ever speaks. Since it was already revealed that she loses her powers it's safe to say that she speaks the name of a daemon.

Fun fact about the Fireborn audio drama is that it's correct in all statements about wargear, codex grey colours etc except for one thing. It says that the sisters Immolators have flamestorm cannons which is something they do not have atm.
I commented on this in the old rumours thread.



andrewm9 said:


> Seriously a squad of sisters woudl just grab melta bombs and clamber all over it to explode themselves just to win against the enemy (especially one like that).





Zion said:


> ....I can't really describe how annoyed I am that some writer expects people to believe that some Chaos Dreadnought could do all that but the Sisters could do nothing to stop it.
> 
> That's just a horrible way to treat them. Makes me really glad I don't read the Black Library books even more.


Not sure what you are on about but the I'm guessing you think it was a regular dreadnought in Fireborn that went on a rampage. They describe it as a daemon engine and I get the impression it grew bigger and bigger, at it's peak being a similar size to a small Titan, a Knight Titan or similar.
It was also immune to basically everything, one sister slaps a melta bomb on it but nothing happens. Guess it's got a 2+ inv save


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> As for Fireborn the girl isn't a Living Saint, she is referred to as a Living Relic. She has the ability to know the names of Daemons simply be being near them, for those that know about the power knowing a daemons name brings can understand that she is EXTREMELY valuable. If they can get her off the planet and into the hands of the Ordo Malleus they could basically secure the victory over every greater daemon in existence.
> 
> There is one catch though, she loses the ability if she ever speaks. Since it was already revealed that she loses her powers it's safe to say that she speaks the name of a daemon.


Thus, you know, rendering this entire plot point nothing but one massive shaggy dog story, and as a side effect, rendered all of the audiosnuffficlet Fireborn, nothing but a Shaggy Dog Story.:alcoholic:



MadCowCrazy said:


> Not sure what you are on about but the I'm guessing you think it was a regular dreadnought in Fireborn that went on a rampage. They describe it as a daemon engine and I get the impression it grew bigger and bigger, at it's peak being a similar size to a small Titan, a Knight Titan or similar.
> It was also immune to basically everything, one sister slaps a melta bomb on it but nothing happens. Guess it's got a 2+ inv save


First of all, probably to late but anyway 
*SPOILERS!*
Ok, so the Dreadnaught confusion was my fault and I apologise but really, the 'daemon engine' isn't really ever described as being much greater then a Dread anyway, it wasn't even that much taller than the Exorcists that fired several salvos each at it. (Didn't even scratch it)
And the fact that it shrugs off Meltas, Melta Warhead Exorcist Missiles, Inferno Pistols, Multimeltas and even a Melta Bomb strapped to the bloody thing itself (Which killed the Canoness who couldn't escape it's 'blast radius') :headbutt: yet is effortlessly destroyed by a Space Marine throwing his Thunderhammer at it. (Why couldn't he just throw the F-ing thing in the first place before it massacres its way across a Shrine World is beyond me)

And if Chaos Space Marines can just deploy one of these things willy-nilly then why wasn't there groups of them on Cadia? Armageddon? Medusa V? TERRA? Honestly, instant, bloody, Galactic Curbstomp!

Also Chaos's plan was to capture the Saint alive for ritualistic sacrifice. With a machine that's idea of subtly is Kool-aid man.
Well, it probably would have gotten most of her back to base camp.:sarcastichand:

This story did nothing, serves no purpose and could have been just as easily set on an abandoned hulk with only the Marines, Chaos and the Saint now a literal relic in the form of a grimoire or similar.

The fact that the author chose a Shrine World full of Sisters and then had to introduce some entirely self-inconsistent God Sue villain just to avoid the hole he had now written and then promptly fills said hole in the bodies of a faction who would have been far better served by just not introducing them in the first place leads to this story to be one of the worst in BL history.


----------



## Shandathe

Kettu said:


> The fact that the author chose a Shrine World full of Sisters and then had to introduce some entirely self-inconsistent God Sue villain just to avoid the hole he had now written and then promptly fills said hole in the bodies of a faction who would have been far better served by just not introducing them in the first place leads to this story to be one of the worst in BL history.


Yet one that only has positive customer reviews! Oh, let's not forget the Space Marine is just a n00b...


----------



## Zion

Please tell me there are some nice rumor bits floating around because I could use a nice pick-me-up after hear about that trash they called a book.


----------



## Kettu

All those reviews are from people that listened to it for marines. Kinda clear with the


> ...A must for any Salamaders and Space Marine fans.





> ...makes you think you are there with the Space Marines.





> ...if you love/hate tsugan like most, you're REALLY gonna love this...





> ...If you have read any of Kyme's Salamander stories...


Granted, language wise it is good, context wise, yeah...:headbutt:

And I have never seen a negative review on BL site either.
Just saying...


----------



## Shandathe

The fact that there aren't any new rumor bits is probably the good news. The lack of new rumors that make me wish to burn down GW HQ in a grand cleansing inferno... as the violence of my rage results in a level of destruction previously only seen in cheesy 90s disaster movies!!!

... err... 

Well, at any rate, no news is good news?


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> Please tell me there are some nice rumor bits floating around because I could use a nice pick-me-up after hear about that trash they called a book.


Let us see...

Rumoured Sisters of Battle plastics are only five per box? No wait, had that...
The leaked codex was a fake? hmmm... Not even a rumour...

Oh wait, heres one.

Sisters will be (And I can't stress this word enough) _*Allegedly*_ revealed at GDUK!

Source is three different people, one 'knows' someone from GWHQ, One is rather high up in the Australian GW hirachy (Position and name will not be given) and the third is the manager of my local. 
I heard this yesterday but didn't think to post it at first. Not good sources, I know. I'll probably have to go shopping later for enough salt but anyway, it's something (and all I have).
---
So, MadCow, please be on the look out.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I called the reveal at GDUK weeks ago  Does that make me a good rumours monger?

Basically I drew that conclusion on that if Sisters are due in November then they will be at GDUK because last year Dark Eldar were on display and they were the November release.


----------



## Angelus Censura

MadCowCrazy said:


> I called the reveal at GDUK weeks ago  Does that make me a good rumours monger?
> 
> Basically I drew that conclusion on that if Sisters are due in November then they will be at GDUK because last year Dark Eldar were on display and they were the November release.


Sounds about right to me, unless they make all the current SoB and Witch Hunter minis Finecast and throw some rules into a WD and call it a day. In which case...I'll shit!


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> I called the reveal at GDUK weeks ago  Does that make me a good rumours monger?
> 
> Basically I drew that conclusion on that if Sisters are due in November then they will be at GDUK because last year Dark Eldar were on display and they were the November release.


Who is a good rumourmonger? Yes you are, yes you are, here, take a cookie


----------



## Zion

Angelus Censura said:


> Sounds about right to me, unless they make all the current SoB and Witch Hunter minis Finecast and throw some rules into a WD and call it a day. In which case...I'll shit!


I'm not up to snuff with current slang...is that good or bad?

That aside I can't say I look forward to a White Dwarf release BUT I am thinking that that might be old news that has only recently made it's way through the grapevine assuming that the idea was proposed back when Sisters were in limbo due to model issues.

At least that's my hope. Games Day UK might help clarify things for us a bit, or it might not if GW really is tightening that release info noose [which seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again I'm not a big, international company....or am I?*].

I've got mixed feelings about the whole 5 model box made of a mix of Sisters and Seraphim but who knows exactly what's going on there. From what I've been reading a lot of the rumor stuff has been vague. So vague in fact that I'm starting to wonder if GW is drumming up some of these rumors to gauge customer reactions first so they can avoid as much negative backlash as possible [like claiming the boxes will be sets of 5 to see if we'd buy them, or what would make us buy them and using it for marketing data].

Could that just me being blindly optimistic? Perhaps. Would I love to get some at least semi-solid info from Games Workshop [like a planned release order for the stuff that's pretty much almost ready, maybe them sharing some new stuff with us, like the changes to the fluff we're going to see, or new models/characters would be nice and wouldn't take more than an article on their sight or in White Dwarf to drum up some interest for those of us who've been itching to see what's coming next]. I don't know if they'll ever do it, but I'd LIKE to see something come out from their PR department other than the constant strings of walking advertisements for the models that just came out. Yes their nice and look pretty sweet but unless you're a sales catalog we want to see more than advertisements.

*No I'm not.


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> [like claiming the boxes will be sets of 5 to see if we'd buy them, or what would make us buy them and using it for marketing data].


If that's the case, all the GW apologists make me weep.:alcoholic:


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> If that's the case, all the GW apologists make me weep.:alcoholic:


Mind you that is just a theory that has little to no standing. I was just looking at a thought why such information would be leaked and what they would have to gain if it was intentional. I don't know GW's internal business model but I do know if I was looking to do some free market research and wanted some risk-free feedback letting slip a rumor like that wouldn't be a bad plan. The 40K community isn't exactly hard to find and we tend to talk topics like the 5 Sisters to a Box thing to great length [at least from what I've seen].


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Found some concept pictures of the new Seraphim jumppacks, look awesome!


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> Found some concept pictures of the new Seraphim jumppacks, look awesome!


You...:headbutt:

I´m listening the ad from GW in my mind: "Always thinking on the enviroment, our new miniature will support the new forms of energy"


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Sexy, no?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Anyone know if that model was actually ever released or was it early concept or something?




ghost21 said:


> this will be one of my last posts for abit so thanks for the defending there guys
> 
> honestly i saw some things sometimes there cads sometimes there sprues, i have seen sprues for sisters/ repentia n a penitent as already stated by myself
> 
> i asked 3 times about sisters bieng in a box of 5 i got a yes 3 times
> 
> sisters will be a phonomanal release so good in fact I'm just waiting for them instead of getting cron force


----------



## Sworn Radical

_Phonomanal ?_ Does it have something to do with my old record player ?

D'uh ... that's not even a word. And even if that guy meant _'phenomenal'_, how serious would you take so-called rumours from someone with these spelling habits. Ah, I guess the internet will ruin grammar, spelling and the finer forms of written articulation in due time, no kidding.

No, honestly. GW's becoming more and more tight-arsed about releases, so I doubt anything we heard thus far besides the 5 per box (maybe the voices just meant 5 per sprue ?) _'rumours'_ might be correct. 
Me ? I'll just sit back and wait. I still own 60+ metal sisters from the days of old and am mostly anticipating the new codex, not the miniatures.


----------



## AlexHolker

Ghost21 has said, "i asked 3 times about sisters bieng in a box of 5 i got a yes 3 times," so there's no leeway: if he's not lying, it's really a 5 Sister box.

I'm tending towards the former: anyone who would call GW somehow managing to make the Sisters of Battle _more expensive_ "phenomenal" is not to be trusted.


----------



## Azezel

I've been pointing out Ghost21's illiteracy for months now, and counciling that it is a poor sign.

I've also pointed out that those High Elf rumours of his that I was able to discover were proven wrong.

However, he seems to have too much endurance to be a common troll.


----------



## SilverTabby

Note he doesn't say who he asked. It could have been redshirts, who 99% of the time know nothing solid.


----------



## Kettu

Oh Look... BoLS is repeating BoK again.:russianroulette:



BoLS said:


> Little birds are chirp chirping through the hot spring nights. Here's what been out there on the rumor wires...
> 
> 
> No details on contents here, (that will come soon enough) but timeframes are said to be:
> 
> 
> Sisters of Battle in July-August timeframe (in White Dwarf, same as Blood Angels were)
> 
> Necrons in the October-November pre holiday timeslot (same slot as Dark Eldar were)
> 
> And in another "Mystery Box" situation like Space Hulk was, a special something is apparantly coming in October from GW (may be 40k related - maybe not).


I do love how The most complete collection of Sister rumours currently on the Internet. (Right here) Is at odds with BoLS own version. You think they'd cross-check what's being said with here first.


----------



## gen.ahab

Kettu said:


> I do love how The most complete collection of Sister rumours currently on the Internet. (Right here) Is at odds with BoLS own version. You think they'd cross-check what's being said with here first.


It could very well be that they have more reliable information and that we are wrong.


----------



## Kettu

Considering sometimes you can have several different rumour-mongers all saying something different how does one know what is reliable?


----------



## gen.ahab

Kettu said:


> Considering sometimes you can have several different rumour-mongers all saying something different how does one know what is reliable?


Well, you would probably have to have direct contact with a person from GW, and by person I mean a higher up or someone in the studio. IOW, someone who is suppose to know what the fuck is going on, but then again it could just be a load of rubbish, IDK.


----------



## Zion

gen.ahab said:


> Well, you would probably have to have direct contact with a person from GW, and by person I mean a higher up or someone in the studio. IOW, someone who is suppose to know what the fuck is going on, but then again it could just be a load of rubbish, IDK.


Well we'll know for sure next month, won't we?


----------



## Vhalyar

Kettu said:


> Considering sometimes you can have several different rumour-mongers all saying something different how does one know what is reliable?


Exactly. So what makes you think that what's here is more reliable than what BOLS - without even knowing who's their source - posted? Based on what you posted, that's the pot calling the kettle black :biggrin:


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> Well we'll know for sure next month, won't we?


:secret: That's what we thought LAST month...


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> :secret: That's what we thought LAST month...


Right but we also know July is the latest that this can happen. But with it being the Fantasy version of Apoc [or so I've heard] I will admit I am rather skeptical.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I take it this whole summer of fliers thing might not happen either, most likely if they have made fliers for the most popular factions we should see it next month. If not then the rumour about them being split up into actual race releases might be true.

Either way this months WD should offer allot of insight into what we can expect, if there is any truth at all to the WD release before Necrons it would be in this months WD.
If there is any truth to the rumour that Sisters and Necrons switched slots so Sisters got the August release we should know with this WD.

Funny, I'm actually looking forwards to a WD yet I'm not looking forwards to any articles or shit like that but the possibility of there being Sisters news in it... something that only happens every few years.


----------



## Shandathe

With Fantasy getting the rather skeptically anticipated Magic thing, I'm not at all sure there's room for anything 40K-wise other than perhaps a couple models in July (there were still those Tau rumours, weren't there?). I'd rather not set foot on the Road to Disappointment for at least another month. Unlike July, August seems like a decent bet for 40K at least.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> I take it this whole summer of fliers thing might not happen either, most likely if they have made fliers for the most popular factions we should see it next month. If not then the rumour about them being split up into actual race releases might be true.
> 
> Either way this months WD should offer allot of insight into what we can expect, if there is any truth at all to the WD release before Necrons it would be in this months WD.
> If there is any truth to the rumour that Sisters and Necrons switched slots so Sisters got the August release we should know with this WD.
> 
> Funny, I'm actually looking forwards to a WD yet I'm not looking forwards to any articles or shit like that but the possibility of there being Sisters news in it... something that only happens every few years.


I feel that we will find something out really soon about about necrons and the sisters... Soon my friend soon!


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> I feel that we will find something out really soon about about necrons and the sisters... Soon my friend soon!


I have to agree. With the conflicting timelines of the Sisters release [running anywhere from July 2011 to March 2012] and the fact we know that Necrons are sometime before the year ends something has to give here shortly. The only question is which army will it be?

It's times like this I wished GW would just say "This army is next, here's some concept sketches and fluff we've been working on, and a sneak peek at a new model/codex page/the bottom of the sculptors shoe/SOMETHING" instead of this hush-hush almost Cold War mentality they have with sharing things with us. They aren't fighting Communism for crying outloud, they're a capitalist company that is failing to capitalize on the interest of it's customers in the hobby it has created.

That out of my system [again [no really, this is a pretty big gripe of mine and the only real one I have with GW in the long run]], I hope we get some kind of nod soon. That or I'm going to get some pushpins, a cork board and strong so I can start making some kind of crazy-person-conspiracy-theory-wall next to my computer so I can try and work this out.

I'm sure it'd lead to some kind of conclusion like this:
_"Alright, Robin had tacos with extra hot sauce today. And only a man who is looking for something to spice things up would use that much hot sauce. And as we all know the only thing that brings that much heat in 40K is Sisters of Battle so they must be ready to be released!"_

And for the love of god ignore that as being fact. I don't want to end up on Blood of Kittens later or Bell of the Lost Soul and see that insane troll logic there being pushed as a real rumor.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> I have to agree. With the conflicting timelines of the Sisters release [running anywhere from July 2011 to March 2012] and the fact we know that Necrons are sometime before the year ends something has to give here shortly. The only question is which army will it be?
> 
> It's times like this I wished GW would just say "This army is next, here's some concept sketches and fluff we've been working on, and a sneak peek at a new model/codex page/the bottom of the sculptors shoe/SOMETHING" instead of this hush-hush almost Cold War mentality they have with sharing things with us. They aren't fighting Communism for crying outloud, they're a capitalist company that is failing to capitalize on the interest of it's customers in the hobby it has created.
> 
> That out of my system [again [no really, this is a pretty big gripe of mine and the only real one I have with GW in the long run]], I hope we get some kind of nod soon. That or I'm going to get some pushpins, a cork board and strong so I can start making some kind of crazy-person-conspiracy-theory-wall next to my computer so I can try and work this out.
> 
> I'm sure it'd lead to some kind of conclusion like this:
> _"Alright, Robin had tacos with extra hot sauce today. And only a man who is looking for something to spice things up would use that much hot sauce. And as we all know the only thing that brings that much heat in 40K is Sisters of Battle so they must be ready to be released!"_
> 
> And for the love of god ignore that as being fact. I don't want to end up on Blood of Kittens later or Bell of the Lost Soul and see that insane troll logic there being pushed as a real rumor.


I agree why do they act so hush hush about things. Its not a flippin matter of national security. If that was the case then the UK got some real issues going on over there. 

These rumours are starting to get a lil odd lately and very inconcise.Next thing you know there is gonna be a rumour about sisters and necrons sleepin togethere and the tau like to watch. The sad part is some one is gonna read this and its gonna get repeated somewhere in wornderful world of the internet.


----------



## Grogbart

At times like these, I just can't help thinking, that GW is just as curious as we are, on what they might do next!?


----------



## TheSpore

Grogbart said:


> At times like these, I just can't help thinking, that GW is just as curious as we are, on what they might do next!?


\

I think that all the time but I trust that they do have a plan. You don't get to be as successful as they have without a thought of what your next move will be.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> I'm sure it'd lead to some kind of conclusion like this:
> _"Alright, Robin had tacos with extra hot sauce today. And only a man who is looking for something to spice things up would use that much hot sauce. And as we all know the only thing that brings that much heat in 40K is Sisters of Battle so they must be ready to be released!"_


Awesome, just awesome  Have some rep :crazy:


----------



## Grogbart

Well, obviously GW Finance Department has a plan. Question is, are GW successful because they adhere to that plan or despite they adhere to that plan!?! And does the rest of GW know of that plan?

I know, I'm getting silly now, but what can a SoB player do these days, other than hoping or getting crazy?


----------



## Zion

Thanks for the rep!

A little off-topic but I used the contact Tom Kirby regarding GW and why it would benefit the company to be more open with it's customer base. I'm waiting to see what he says [assuming he even bothers replying at all....maybe I need to buy a share of the company then email him again?].

Back on topic I hope the new codex includes some more fun church-themed items [and vehicle panels!] for the army. Like perhaps a deploy-able building that doubles as a bunker that deep strikes like a drop pod to represent the flat-packed churches they have.

That and perhaps another varient tank [like a Land Raider that can be armed with twin-linked multi-meltas or heavy-flamers [with the Immolator move 12" and still fire rule for the flamers]] or perhaps some kind of APC? Oh and dropping plasma pistols in favor of Flamer Pistols or the Inferno Pistol for all the Sisters Superiors. Making all the units faithful would be nice too, but I'm not looking to be greedy.

I don't want to get too nuts mind you with the things I hope to see, but I do love a good excuse to get new/more models. I got 14 Repentia and a Mistress from a buddy of mine just because he wasn't using them [and I might field them for fun, and to scare people when they see a large block of nubile women with Eviscerators running their way]. 

I really hope though that the Sisters get some good, fluffy stuff to help expand their codex. I don't have too many good ideas on what the girls should have since I'm still reading/researching their fluff [to a greater degree than I have any of the 40K armies I've played to date to give you an idea on how much I like these girls. They are one of the more interesting armies to date. And with Space Marine saves but Imperial Guard stats [mostly] they make for a nice way to expand into playing non-Marine armies for anyone who is too used to playing those statlines of "4"s.



Grogbart said:


> I know, I'm getting silly now, but what can a SoB player do these days, other than hoping or getting crazy?


I'm all in favor of the crazy plan! Just let me fetch my tinfoil hat before we get started.:grin:


----------



## mcmuffin

Zion said:


> Back on topic I hope the new codex includes some more fun church-themed items [and vehicle panels!] for the army. Like perhaps a deploy-able building that doubles as a bunker that deep strikes like a drop pod to represent the flat-packed churches they have.


*Special Rule* flatpacked churches: You may forgo your shooting phase in order to have your sisters nip down to Ikea and get the screws that they forgot to include in the box :mrgreen: Note, this church only lasts for one turn as that flat-packed shit is never good quality anyway.

anyway, joking aside, i would also prefer if GW were more open with their fanbase, including giving a beta rules testing for any hiccups, RAW or RAI problems and any improvements that could be made for balance, points cost etc, then make changes. I hate the whole corporate-nazism that GW have going. If they told us what was coming up and released some developer diaries, concept art etc. people could then save well in advance for a new army. What is the idea that giving news early will affect sales? Sure, maybe for two months, but that means that people will save and probably splurge whenever the models are released, generating more profit than buying a single thing over three months and then buying one or two of the new releases. For example, with necrons, i have not bought anything and have nothing put aside for when they are released. If they gave us some hints, then i might have gone out and bought some warriors and maybe a lord, but not now. With this attitude they have, i am not sure that i will even be interested in starting a new army, because by the time they are released, my initial interest in the army has almost evaporated.

sorry for the rant.


----------



## Azezel

Zion said:


> Back on topic I hope the new codex includes some more fun church-themed items [and vehicle panels!] for the army. Like perhaps a deploy-able building that doubles as a bunker that deep strikes like a drop pod to represent the flat-packed churches they have.


Kudos, most people have never heard of the Ecclesiarchy's orbit-insertable cathedrals. Indeed, I cannot recal where I read about them. Remind me?

Anyhoo, Warhammer Fantasy has something very similar, the Folding Fortress. As cool as it would be I cannot see it apearing in 40k, since in Fantasy the folding fortress has a reputation as extremely exploitable and rather cheesy.



Zion said:


> That and perhaps another varient tank [like a Land Raider that can be armed with twin-linked multi-meltas or heavy-flamers [with the Immolator move 12" and still fire rule for the flamers]] or perhaps some kind of APC? Oh and dropping plasma pistols in favor of Flamer Pistols or the Inferno Pistol for all the Sisters Superiors. Making all the units faithful would be nice too, but I'm not looking to be greedy.


Please, no Land Raiders.

We're well covered for APCs/IFVs (although the points could come down a touch), and we have an excellent self-propelled gun, but we lack any kind of tank.

I think we do need one, ideally with good all-round armour and the meltacannon off the Devil Dog.

Speaking of vehicls, I'd also like to see all of our vehicles get increased rear AV, since we are always working in amongst the bad guys.


----------



## Zion

Azezel said:


> Kudos, most people have never heard of the Ecclesiarchy's orbit-insertable cathedrals. Indeed, I cannot recal where I read about them. Remind me?
> 
> Anyhoo, Warhammer Fantasy has something very similar, the Folding Fortress. As cool as it would be I cannot see it apearing in 40k, since in Fantasy the folding fortress has a reputation as extremely exploitable and rather cheesy.


Magic of the internet actually. I've been reading the 2nd edition and full 3rd ed codices but haven't seen it yet. Still a building that must be inserted via deep strike would be perfect for the Sisters. And would also make for a neat terrain piece on the side.




Azezel said:


> Please, no Land Raiders.
> 
> We're well covered for APCs/IFVs (although the points could come down a touch), and we have an excellent self-propelled gun, but we lack any kind of tank.
> 
> I think we do need one, ideally with good all-round armour and the meltacannon off the Devil Dog.
> 
> Speaking of vehicls, I'd also like to see all of our vehicles get increased rear AV, since we are always working in amongst the bad guys.


You got a point. Giving us a Rhino with 11 all round couldn't be THAT much of a game changer. 

Pentinent Engines moving to FA and getting scout and fleet wouldn't be bad to be honest. Put yes, with 5th being so armor heavy, and our main ways of cracking it being 12" or less [to include close combat] or loading up on Hunter-Killers I agree we need something with a bit more bite to it. And whatever it is I feel should be unique to the sisters. It can be based on a Rhino or Chimera, sure. But it shouldn't looks like them exactly either. The sisters aren't your ordinary Imperial force and the differences our vehicles have reflect that, and I think it should stay that way too.

That said I do like that our Rhinos and Immolators are different but I'm confused where the pintel mounted Stormbolters are supposed to go exactly. I've been assuming they fire from the same site as the front hatch/turret but don't know how to model it exactly.

More of the panels would be nice though [like on the Exorcist] for our other vehicles. I think they add a nice touch to the army.


----------



## Azezel

Zion said:


> You got a point. Giving us a Rhino with 11 all round couldn't be THAT much of a game changer.


Actually, it _would_ be a game changer, that;'s why I want it. We are a short-range army and our vehicles are always right in amongst the bad guys. I swear, the number of times I've had my Rhinos glanced to death by smurfs knocking on the back door... so yeah, AV 11 at the back would make a big difference.



Zion said:


> I'm confused where the pintel mounted Stormbolters are supposed to go exactly. I've been assuming they fire from the same site as the front hatch/turret but don't know how to model it exactly.


Er, they're included in the kit. If you look at the cupola supplied in the Immolator kit, it has a slot in it, and there is a tab on the storm bolter which fits into it.

Personally, I don't glue the stormbolters on, I know they'll snap off as soon as my back is turned, but that's where they're supposed to go. Mind you - I play with a friendly bunch who will take my word for it when I tell them that 'those Rhinos have stormbolters and they shoot from there.'



Zion said:


> More of the panels would be nice though [like on the Exorcist] for our other vehicles. I think they add a nice touch to the army.


Hell yes.


----------



## Grogbart

With the Rhino, the Immolator and hopefully the Repressor it sure will be quite cramped in the Dedicated Transport Department. Especially if they as similar as now. I could well imagine the Immolator with front and side armour twelve (if only to diversify it from the Razorback) both as a dedicated transport and additionally as a HS or FA choice, dropping the transport ability for side sponsoon weapons and of course all the weapon options we have collected here, earlier!
Although I have a slight issue with the melta cannon, comparing it to the multi-melta. A melta's prime target are tanks, I don't have the actual math, but my guts tell me, the odds of BF 4 hitting directly are better than landing a Blast on a vehicle. The rest is all the same, range, strangth, AP. Sure such a Blast on a freshly deep striked Termie-squad is nice, but is it (or will it) be worth the price? I'm not opposed to the melta cannon being an option, just not sure I would take it.

@Zion
Did you ask about the standard Stormbolter that comes free with the Rhino or the additional one for +10 points?

By the way, is it anywhere officially mentioned, outside the Instruction manual in the actual box itself, that the Immolator can also be build as a Sisters Rhino?
Just curious!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As for tank they could simply give the Immolator and Exorcists the option to take more options and side sponsons. I'd personally give them turret and side sponson twin linked Assault cannons and auto cannons together with Blessed Ammo. The sisters are a close range army but do lack some ranged anti tank. I guess making the Exorcist 2D3 or give it side sponsons that add +2 to the result could help but then you are forced to take exorcists if you want AV.

Best way to fix it would be through act's of faith imo, there could be one that gives 2D6 armour pen to any shots and close combat attacks by the unit. Similar to the GK Might of Titan psychic power the lib has. This way you could give Retributors, Immolators and the Exorcist Auto Cannons and that would be good enough AV for the Sisters. For those that remember my acts of faith system I posted some weeks ago I suggested the rending rule, this would be enough when tied together with Blessed Ammo. This would give you a bigger chance to do damage.
So Auto Cannons and Assault Cannons with Blessed Ammo and an Act of Faith that gives Rending = AV problem solved and forces you to strategically spend your Faith Points.


----------



## Shandathe

Azezel said:


> Er, they're included in the kit. If you look at the cupola supplied in the Immolator kit, it has a slot in it, and there is a tab on the storm bolter which fits into it.


Well, that's the Rhino's NORMAL Storm bolter armament. You're allowed to add a pintle-mounted one as well, but much like Zion I'll be damned if I know where it is in the kit or where to fit the thing.


----------



## Zion

Grogbart said:


> =Did you ask about the standard Stormbolter that comes free with the Rhino or the additional one for +10 points?
> 
> By the way, is it anywhere officially mentioned, outside the Instruction manual in the actual box itself, that the Immolator can also be build as a Sisters Rhino?
> Just curious!


I was refering to the additional one.

A Sister's Rhino is an Immolator with the Storm Bolter turret. That's about it.



Shandathe said:


> Well, that's the Rhino's NORMAL Storm bolter armament. You're allowed to add a pintle-mounted one as well, but much like Zion I'll be damned if I know where it is in the kit or where to fit the thing.




Exactly my point. For the Exorcist I like to pretend the organist sister has one stashed under her keyboard. Can't really explain away the others though.

Now don't get me wrong, I love our weird little one-turret Rhino varient but since the rear hatch is just that I can't really stick the extra Storm Bolter there. I'm half tempted to hull mount it to the front of the vehicle by cutting a hole in the front armor and sticking it through but that might look silly.


----------



## Azezel

Ah, I misunderstood.

If you're paying 10 points for an additional stormbolter on a 50 point vehicle that should always be moving 12 inches, you have bigger problems than where to mount it, Old Man. That's all I can offer, sorry.


----------



## Zion

Azezel said:


> Ah, I misunderstood.
> 
> If you're paying 10 points for an additional stormbolter on a 50 point vehicle that should always be moving 12 inches, you have bigger problems than where to mount it, Old Man. That's all I can offer, sorry.


The Exorcist -shouldn't- be moving more than 6" and the Bolter there would be a defensive weapon to help add the hurt there against groups who are getting, or are getting too close.

The Immolater -should- be moving 12" but doesn't always have a reason too and can still be immobilized as easy as a Rhino [happens a lot to me too].

The Rhino should be rushing forward 12" as well but if/when it gets immobilized [again, I end up with a lot of static pillboxes] then it's better to use it as a true pillbox and try and maximize the hurt from it before the enemy pops it for real.

And of course for all of them it's an additional weapon to allow you to keep going if they pop your other ones and immobilize you.

Mind you that's just my point of view on this, and why you'd take an additional Storm Bolter. Now do I typically purchase them? No, but still knowing where they should be would be nice. Just sayin'.


----------



## Shandathe

True enough. If they drop the Rhino price to 35 but keep Extra Armour for Sisters at 5 I'd be at least as ecstatic as for an increased AV on the back. As for mounting it... In a recent 750 points game both my Rhinos got immobilized because I could only take off the one SB and the second Weapon Destroyed had to go somewhere. It's expensive enough as it is, true, but I'm half-tempted to spring for the added pintle-mounted SBs next time anyway.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

For a Battle Tank, my thoughts on it were effectively a Predator that got Immolator-themed turret/sponson weapons.


BANISHER
BS: 4
FAV: 13
SAV: 11
RAV: 10
Weapons: Flamestorm Cannon
Options: 
*May replace Flamestorm Cannon with an Inferno Cannon, Long Barrelled Melta Cannon, Centurion Gatling Bolter or Magna Melta.
*May take one of the following Sponson Weapons (one for each side): Multi-Melta, Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer.

The guns are all listed elsewhere (LB Melta-Cannon is a longer ranged version of the Devil Dog's? Melta Cannon, Magna Melta is off the Caestus Assault Ram) except Centurion Gatling Bolter, which would be something like: Range 48”, S6 AP4, Heavy 6, Twin Linked, Rending


----------



## MadCowCrazy

But isn't that just an Exorcists with new weapon options? I would rather the Exorcist or Immolator get options like that instead of a new vehicle entry. Reason being that it's a wasted vehicle slot that could be used for something else.

Also I think all the flame based weapons should be handled by the Immolator, heck I'd love to see a turret mounted twin-linked Inferno Cannons and side sponson Inferno Cannons :crazy: Also when a it's wrecked it explodes, when exploded is rolled it's an automatic 6" S5 AP- because of all the promethium onboard :crazy:


----------



## rasolyo

If they stay true to the theme of bolter/flamer/melta being the sisters' primary weapons, then maybe we could see our Troops choices being a variation on those (triple shot bolters/heavy flamers or meltas for everyone?).

Or something like that.


----------



## Grogbart

Well on the topic of mounting a second stormbolter onto a Sisters Rhino: 
don't glue in the back Hatch and exchange it for a second stormbolter-turret (which you might have left over from Exorcist boxes) when needed.

@rasolyo
Dominions as troop choice! Something in that direction?

As for additional vehicles. What I would love to see, is some kind of heavy-flamer-stat big blast from some heavy-incendiary-shell-firing mortar or something similar. I'm not even sure we actually need something like that, but I want it, simply because I think it would fit! (And if the Inquisition drops out we need something new to have at least one blast weapon!!!)


----------



## TheSpore

Grogbart said:


> Well on the topic of mounting a second stormbolter onto a Sisters Rhino:
> don't glue in the back Hatch and exchange it for a second stormbolter-turret (which you might have left over from Exorcist boxes) when needed.
> 
> @rasolyo
> Dominions as troop choice! Something in that direction?
> 
> As for additional vehicles. What I would love to see, is some kind of heavy-flamer-stat big blast from some heavy-incendiary-shell-firing mortar or something similar. I'm not even sure we actually need something like that, but I want it, simply because I think it would fit! (And if the Inquisition drops out we need something new to have at least one blast weapon!!!)


I am having a vision: I see A flamestorm cannon!!!

I just wanna see SoB models that don't look so manly


----------



## Irbian

Ok, some google foo provide me this, but I haven´t heard about it before, so Im asking your opinion here.



> This/next year codex plan:
> 2011
> June-october - flyers expansion
> June-July - more IA for Eldar and SWolves
> August-October - Necron
> After the new year - Sisters of Battle or Black Templars
> 
> 2012
> 1 Quarter
> 
> 1st wave of SoB/BT
> 2nd wave od Grey Knights
> 
> 2-3 Quarter
> New Eldar Codex (95% ) or new Tau codex (5%)
> 
> 
> Developing:
> SoB - are ready
> BT - are ready
> Dark Angels - about 60% ready
> Eldar - in concepts
> Tau - nothing other than wish-wash, several sketches and unreliable gossips. Tau will be Empire no more and become some sort of Interxeno Alliance, focus will be on different xeno races. And also some sht about that Tau will be no more codex army, and will share the fate of Kroot Mercenaries.





> The source of information - a fat troll named Dr. Darog from the main russian WH community(confirmed Tau hater due to lack of grimdarkness and stuff). The problem is, that this guy really got some GW contacts and spends a lot of time abroad on foreign WH summits and tournaments. And his information was valid almost always before.


Source


----------



## Azezel

The Summer of Fliers has rumour has already been staked through the heart (and good riddance), and the chances of seeing Eldar before Tau are slim.

the rest looks plausable enough to be pure guesswork.

business as usual, folks, tinfoil hats on standby.

(I'm constructing a tinfoil Sabbat-Pattern Helm, myself.)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem is that we have so many conflicting rumours flying about right now. There are 3 armies that are said to be pretty much done right now.

BT = 100% done
Necrons = 100% done
Sisters of Battle 100% done

Then we have conflicting release dates, in any order pretty much but consensus seems to be either Sisters or Necrons and then Black Templars or Tau.
One of the voices in my head told me that the starter set for 6E will be Black Templars vs Chaos Daemons. Apparently BT have been done for a very long time, they just haven't decided on when to release them or save them up incase there is a delay some place else.

Then we have this whole WD debacle, it is said to be before Necrons.

Then we have the GW hating rumour mongers so they switched the release dates to prove them wrong.
Basically Sisters of Battle in August and Necrons in November.
This does fit in with the SoB before Crons but will it be a WD or proper release?

ghost21 says it will be a proper release as he claims to have seen the codex cover ("best codex cover of the year") and Battle Sisters 5 girl sprue, Repentia 10 girl sprue and Penitent Engine sprue.

Then we have the 2nd wave Finecast release said to be in August, amongst the models is Karmazov. Will he appear in the SoB dex as well? if yes then that would fit with a Aug release for Sisters as a SC model. Fantasy has a few armies with the same units in them so why can't 40k? Then again one could argue that all SM dexes have the exact same units with different iconography and a USR sprinkled on top.

Let's see...are there any more? We have the Vespid and Pathfinders in plastic for Tau rumour, sometime this autumn. I'd be willing to bet that we could see them as finecast in August since the 2nd wave of finecast rumour seems to be lacking quite allot.

Tyranids get finecast Venomthropes in Aug so they might throw in some of the other rumoured Tyranid models in there.

A WD release makes sense in Aug if they will focus on finecast and other releases but it seems highly unlikely.

Either way this months WD should reveal quite allot for us. Someone please post the details asap!


----------



## Zion

Azezel said:


> The Summer of Fliers has rumour has already been staked through the heart (and good riddance), and the chances of seeing Eldar before Tau are slim.
> 
> the rest looks plausable enough to be pure guesswork.
> 
> business as usual, folks, tinfoil hats on standby.
> 
> (I'm constructing a tinfoil Sabbat-Pattern Helm, myself.)


I've been thinking that the conflicting rumors might have some kind of twisted sense if it pertains to multiple waves of things. Say first wave Necrons are August and second wave are November. First wave Sisters are November second after the new year.

It seems to solve the problems of conflicting information and validates most of what we've been hearing. It actually makes TOO much sense in my book.

Which means it's probably TOTALLY wrong.

Well it seems it's time for me to put on my tinfoil hat. 

On the flip side I do hope I'm right about this because that'd be pretty sweet.


----------



## coke123

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Centurion Gatling Bolter, which would be something like: Range 48”, S6 AP4, Heavy 6, Twin Linked, Rending


48" range? If you want that, expect to pay for it; that's a suped-up assault cannon, which already costs an arm and a leg when tled.


----------



## Shandathe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Either way this months WD should reveal quite allot for us. Someone please post the details asap!


I will, but I'm willing to place money on all it reveals being that there's no Sister presence in it.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> I will, but I'm willing to place money on all it reveals being that there's no Sister presence in it.


I'm betting the same personally. Well only three more weeks until we know for sure.

I could really go for some solid visual stuff right now. A picture of part of a codex page, a model on sprue, heck something would be better than the lack of info right now.

Mostly I want to know what they're planning on doing to expand the Sister's Heavy Support slot, or if they do at all.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Source

A lot has been said recently, and talked about, whether or not Sisters or Necrons will be here first. While we do not have any announcement, the rumors that Sister's will slip into July/ Sept seems like it was pulled out of thin air. Today we have yet another rumor about the timeline, declaring Necrons the next codex.

We all really know its necrons next, so here is another source declaring that we will see a huge "dark eldar" style release the first week of September. Do not fear Sisters players, your codex will be here before years end.

Like all rumors, take with a grain of salt.

via GrottoKnight

Necrons drop fist week of Sept. They could push up to last week of August. July white dwarf backside and sneaks inside. August release issue. All models redone entirely. Warriors new package and option but same mold. Think Dark Eldar launch.


----------



## Shandathe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Do not fear Sisters players, your codex will be here before years end.


Given the WDex rumours, I actually fear that more than anything. :scare:


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Given the WDex rumours, I actually fear that more than anything. :scare:


If the codex is a free mini-dex packaged with the WD and contains at the LEAST updated rules and points costs in our favor I could live with it. Anything else wouldn't work for me and I'd stick with the old codex.

That aside I must say I'm still skeptical of this release period since next month is Storms of Magic's release and with White Dwarf being 95% filled with articles about how awesome the new stuff is I can't see it happening. Now granted I could be wrong and they could do a double issue or something but there as been no one claiming to see the WD in question with the mythical release yet. 

Infact with all the claims of seeing an actual codex this one is just about debunked as far as I'm concerned but we'll know for sure next month.


----------



## Shandathe

I thought it debunked last month... but this damn WDex rumour keeps coming back. It's the frakking Energizer Bunny of rumours.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> I thought it debunked last month... but this damn WDex rumour keeps coming back. It's the frakking Energizer Bunny of rumours.


Well, it's pretty obvious why isn't it? It's the same deal as with the Red Rage the Sisters get each month. No matter what you do it will still happen each month....


----------



## Synack

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, it's pretty obvious why isn't it? It's the same deal as with the Red Rage the Sisters get each month. No matter what you do it will still happen each month....


Oh my god, they should totally make that a rule. :laugh:


----------



## ashikenshin

i shall only play my sisters the 20th of each month


----------



## Zion

Synack said:


> Oh my god, they should totally make that a rule. :laugh:


Roll a D6 for each unit in your army at the start of the game and each unit that rolls a 1 gains 1 extra attack per model base, becomes fearless and relentless?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Red Rage: Models with the Red Rage rule have the Preferred Enemy rule vs all male models and if combat is lost the models are treated as being Stubborn and forced to do a Hit & Run test, if successful the unit will run away 5D6 and then immediately Go to Ground for a turn while they cry and comfort each other before coming to the conclusion that all males should be purged in the Emperors name as he is the only one worthy of their faith.
The unit receives Holy Rage, Furious Charge, Stubborn and Preferred Enemy rule vs all male models for the rest of the game. If a male priest is part of the unit the Sisters will immediately kill him gaining an extra D6 movement that turn (normal movement + 2D6 for Holy Rage and killing the priest), they also gain the Fanatical Fury special rule which allows them to reroll to wound rolls as well.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> Red Rage: Models with the Red Rage rule have the Preferred Enemy rule vs all male models [SNIP]


So...

How do you work that out vs. Eldar?

By the Bye...

Warseer is copying us. I say we follow GW's example and sue for copy-write infringment.:drinks:


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> So...
> 
> How do you work that out vs. Eldar?


It only works on non-Wraithguard and models who don't have a busty appearace? ....Or maybe it works there too. :wink: </Rule 34>


----------



## Shandathe

Easy.

All Banshees on the table join the Sisters. :biggrin:


----------



## Creon

And gets Hatred?


----------



## Azezel

And people wonder where gamers get our rep for being sexist girl-repellant. Think we could try and keep it a little classier in here, gentlemen?


----------



## Zion

Azezel said:


> And people wonder where gamers get our rep for being sexist girl-repellant. Think we could try and keep it a little classier in here, gentlemen?


I'll fetch my top hat, monocole and cup of tea immediately!

On a more serious note, is anyone else itching to see pictures of some of these claims as much as I am? Even a blurry cellphone snapshot would be nice since it'd be some kind of verification of SOMETHING.*

*Especially the whole Codex vs White Dwarf net arguement that seems to keep occuring.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> And people wonder where gamers get our rep for being sexist girl-repellant. Think we could try and keep it a little classier in here, gentlemen?


Awww, have a fluffy Battle Sister :crazy:


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy - Is that a Power Lollipop or a regular one?


----------



## hungryugolino

Heresy in a Battle Sister thread? Fetch the flamers.


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Awww, have a fluffy Battle Sister :crazy:


And I thought I had to much free time on my hands.


----------



## TraceofToxin

Azezel said:


> And people wonder where gamers get our rep for being sexist girl-repellant. Think we could try and keep it a little classier in here, gentlemen?


My girlfriend finds this joke funnier than I do.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> MadCowCrazy - Is that a Power Lollipop or a regular one?


Can't you see it's a Blessed Weapon? It has a purity seal on it ffs!



hungryugolino said:


> Heresy in a Battle Sister thread? Fetch the flamers.












Heresy in the making! From this Deviantartist
































There is no story on the web greater than THIS!










There, is that enough Heresy for one day? :crazy:

Yes I'm bored, trying to spice up this thread a bit while we wait for this months WD.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Can't you see it's a Blessed Weapon? It has a purity seal on it ffs!


Sorry! I didn't know. Almost all of the Sisters weapons seem to have about a kajillion purity seals on them.

Nice Heresy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Sorry! I didn't know. Almost all of the Sisters weapons seem to have about a *kajillion purity seals on them*.
> 
> Nice Heresy.












Need I say anything....


Yes, I've been spending too much time on 4chan it seems....


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Need I say anything....
> 
> 
> Yes, I've been spending too much time on 4chan it seems....


Let me guess....Purity Marines?

I don't know, some of these Sisters models might give him a run for his money.


----------



## Shandathe

Actually, including the one on her Blessed Weapon, my Canoness has 'only' 8, and I think she's got more than any other model... well, without gluing more to them.


----------



## rasolyo

hungryugolino said:


> Heresy in a Battle Sister thread? Fetch the flamers.


Brother Mongler.

Sister Suisei.

Let's roll.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm not sure what's worse. The furries or the 4chan.

... probably the furries, but the 4chan tends to be harder to remove.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> I'm not sure what's worse. The furries or the 4chan.
> 
> ... probably the furries, but the 4chan tends to be harder to remove.


Nah worse would be furry Sisters inspired by 4chan and written by Ward.


----------



## rasolyo

Zion said:


> Nah worse would be furry Sisters inspired by 4chan and written by Ward.


They would probably hop on a Penitent Engine and aim the flamers/spinning blades at themselves.


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> They would probably hop on a Penitent Engine and aim the flamers/spinning blades at themselves.


...only to fail and be finished off by a rookie Space Marine who throws a de-powered Thunder Hammer.


----------



## rasolyo

Zion said:


> ...only to fail and be finished off by a rookie Space Marine who throws a de-powered Thunder Hammer.


The Hammer was actually aimed at a Daemon of Chaos lurking behind the sister.

It missed and hit the sister instead.

You're welcome, Matt Ward.


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> The Hammer was actually aimed at a Daemon of Chaos lurking behind the sister.
> 
> It missed and hit the sister instead.
> 
> You're welcome, Matt Ward.


Are we sure that was a Space Marine and not Kharne the Betrayer?

So yeah, ANYWAYS. On a different note, with the latest Necron rumors I feel fairly secure that White Dwarf won't have anything. The evidence against it seems to be much greater than for it.

On a side note, ignoring the WD rumor gives us a release window of between November and next March. Much smaller [and better] window to work with.

I don't get the rumors that GW is trying to push Fantasy more. I've always thought it was the slower moving and updating game compared to 40K but I could of course be wrong. 

Oh well, while I wait for the new codex I'm going to work on my Sisters Super Heavy.


----------



## Shandathe

I did some math in the supporters forum that suggested that, giving each army equal attention, GW can update them about once every six years under it's current release cycle. Aside from the fact that 40K has an additional army in that cycle, Fantasy and 40K update at roughly the same pace. 

Slow as molasses.


----------



## SilverTabby

Why the hate for Matt and what he wrote in the 40K rulebook about Sisters? He wrote even less about the Grey Knights and no-one seems bothered about that...


----------



## Shandathe

The above posts were actually largely aimed at a Black Library title. Matt Ward got brought into it because of his tendency of having the Sisters get beat up in his every Codex.


----------



## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> The above posts were actually largely aimed at a Black Library title. Matt Ward got brought into it because of his tendency of having the Sisters get beat up in his every Codex.


Getting beat up in fluff is not the province of Matt Ward alone. Nearly evry piece of writing concerning Sisters has them being killed, mind controlledd, etc. That is unless it is an actual book about Sisters then then just half of them get killed with them barely winning.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> Are we sure that was a Space Marine and not Kharne the Betrayer?
> 
> So yeah, ANYWAYS. On a different note, with the latest Necron rumors I feel fairly secure that White Dwarf won't have anything. The evidence against it seems to be much greater than for it.
> 
> On a side note, ignoring the WD rumor gives us a release window of between November and next March. Much smaller [and better] window to work with.
> 
> I don't get the rumors that GW is trying to push Fantasy more. I've always thought it was the slower moving and updating game compared to 40K but I could of course be wrong.
> 
> Oh well, while I wait for the new codex I'm going to work on my Sisters Super Heavy.


Have you seen the next finecast roll out their is more for fantasy than 40k and LOTR...
Fantasy has always gotten way more attention... Not sure why maybe its because it is the orignal GW game or something.


----------



## SilverTabby

andrewm9 said:


> Getting beat up in fluff is not the province of Matt Ward alone. Nearly evry piece of writing concerning Sisters has them being killed, mind controlledd, etc. That is unless it is an actual book about Sisters then then just half of them get killed with them barely winning.


Well, to be fair they are just very pious guardsmen in power armour... :wink:


----------



## Azezel

TheSpore said:


> Fantasy has always gotten way more attention... Not sure why maybe its because it is the orignal GW game or something.


It's because Games Workshop _have_ to stay on the ball with Fantasy.

The world and his brother make model elves and dwarves and knights and skeletons etc. The only way for GW to encourage you to buy _their_ model elves and dwarves and knights and skeletons is by making sure they are the best, and that means constant updating.

That's not the case with 40k. with the exception of Imperial Guard, if you want to collect a 40k army you're essentially stuck with GW. No-one else makes Space Marines or 'nids or even Eldar. Not in the quantities that you'd need to build an army.


----------



## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> Getting beat up in fluff is not the province of Matt Ward alone. Nearly evry piece of writing concerning Sisters has them being killed, mind controlledd, etc. That is unless it is an actual book about Sisters then then just half of them get killed with them barely winning.


Yes but Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for their "innocent blood" to protect themselves from a Bloodthirster is all Ward. And that was their PLAN A. [It's on Page 15 of the Grey Knights Codex by-the-way]. What was Plan B, the blood of children?:angry: Seriously. These guys are supposed to be nigh-untouchable by Daemons as a start so why did they need the blood from the Sisters?

Gah!


----------



## Kettu

Lets just quote myself then.



> Well, as it stands the Sisters of Battle codex needs to have them Purge a Chapter, not just a made-up-on-the-spot chapter but one with at least a paragraph or two written about them.
> Needs to have them kill some Grey Knights.
> Needs to have them win at something for one in their entire existence without them all dying.
> 
> What we will get though, will be...
> Canoness McIdie
> Canoness McMartyr
> Living Saint Gotnuked
> And the lovely tales about how they almost won at the battle of shaggydog, almost survived the scouring of Rocksfalls, Almost did something in the purging of Pointless and
> theybeatupsomehereticsafewyearsback


Anyway, I have nothing useful to share at the moment so I'll just leave this clutter.


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> Yes but Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for their "innocent blood" to protect themselves from a Bloodthirster is all Ward. And that was their PLAN A. [It's on Page 15 of the Grey Knights Codex by-the-way]. What was Plan B, the blood of children?:angry: Seriously. These guys are supposed to be nigh-untouchable by Daemons as a start so why did they need the blood from the Sisters?
> 
> Gah!


And that is the Justification for the small GK force I'm working on, Chaos Grey Knights.

When anyone questions or rages about the army I'll just direct them to page 15 and simply reply that my force simply ran out of Sororitas.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> And that is the Justification for the small GK force I'm working on, Chaos Grey Knights.
> 
> When anyone questions or rages about the army I'll just direct them to page 15 and simply reply that my force simply ran out of Sororitas.


Excuse me while I go off and laugh manically about this idea.





*ahem*

Okay. I feel better now. That's pretty awesome. 

I don't ask much of my background fluff. It just needs to make sense and needs to not contradict itself.

Though I guess this sets the groundwork for the Sisters being MORE PURE [and innocent] than the Grey Knights. Awesome. :biggrin:


----------



## Irbian

Kettu said:


> And that is the Justification for the small GK force I'm working on, Chaos Grey Knights.
> 
> When anyone questions or rages about the army I'll just direct them to page 15 and simply reply that my force simply ran out of Sororitas.


That. Is. Awesome. Maybe some GK so awesome that conquer some legions? Have we the real angry marines...?


----------



## Shandathe

If I might make a suggestion?  

Kharn should be the perfect model to be an Inquisitor with Daemonblade :grin:


----------



## Kettu

Well, that would certainly allow Daemon Hosts to be included but I was mostly planning it to be a small force, no larger then thirty minis or so.

I should have it all done by years end assuming no real Money or Time problems along the way.
Once I start in earnest I may even have a running blog on my progress. (No promises though, my Apathy and Procrastination tend to take priority:biggrin


----------



## Kettu

Le Sigh...



M'ichal said:


> Sisters are confirmed for August 2011, got my WD today (yes, I subscribe; I still like it but the lack of good painting articles is starting to pi$$ me off). By the small note at the back cover, it seems that it might be a WD codex cause it says sth like this:
> 
> "First part of Codex: Sisters of battle. We explore the background..." Can't recall the exact words, can post a pic when I get home.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> Le Sigh...


Wait. White Dwarf no longer comes in the mail until the week AFTER the stores get it [the first Saturday]. How's he got a copy of July's already? I already have the one for June [got it Monday, the week after the store copies hit]. 

I'm calling Bull**** [yes, capitalized for how full of it I find this] until we can see some solid evidence otherwise.

EDIT: I'm thinking this guy is just a troll. Look at his join date and number of posts. As of the time of me writing this he's got TWO posts and only joined this month.

Also:


> Yes, I got the August issue. I'm in Canada and I was also really surprised, this is the earliest it came EVER.
> 
> I will post pics after getting home. There are also official Cities of Death rules and scenarios, so this is cool I guess.


 (Source)

How does he have the one for AUGUST in JUNE? July's hasn't even come out yet!:angry:


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> Wait. White Dwarf no longer comes in the mail until the week AFTER the stores get it [the first Saturday]. How's he got a copy of July's already? I already have the one for June [got it Monday, the week after the store copies hit].
> 
> I'm calling Bull**** [yes, capitalized for how full of it I find this] until we can see some solid evidence otherwise.


My thoughts and sentiments exactly.

None the less, I just pass on what I see.

---

Wait a second...

No Failcast, No minis at all any more, 'Get you by WDex'...

Ummm...

Something doesn't add up here. At all.


----------



## Shandathe

I too call BS. Especially since the poster there only just joined and only has 2 posts to his name. There's only so much coinkydink I'll accept.


----------



## Zion

So this doesn't get missed by the page change:



> Yes, I got the August issue. I'm in Canada and I was also really surprised, this is the earliest it came EVER.
> 
> I will post pics after getting home. There are also official Cities of Death rules and scenarios, so this is cool I guess.


 (Source)

How does he have the one for AUGUST in JUNE? July's hasn't even come out yet!:angry:

Yeah. I smell a troll.

EDIT: He just changed his post to say he got the WD for July. I'm not editing my quote of his post because I can't see how someone would botch that if they had the WD in question in their hand.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> So this doesn't get missed by the page change:
> 
> (Source)
> 
> How does he have the one for AUGUST in JUNE? July's hasn't even come out yet!:angry:
> 
> Yeah. I smell a troll.
> 
> EDIT: He just changed his post to say he got the WD for July. I'm not editing my quote of his post because I can't see how someone would botch that if they had the WD in question in their hand.


I smell it as well gather the towns people and a lynchen we will go


----------



## Shandathe

Also... Cities of Death? Srsly? Battle Missions I'd accept (obvious lack in Sisters there), Planetstrike might make some sense, but Cities of Death?


----------



## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> Also... Cities of Death? Srsly? Battle Missions I'd accept (obvious lack in Sisters there), Planetstrike might make some sense, but Cities of Death?


Given their current army builds Sisters excel at urban pacification but not long ranged fights like the IG do. 

On another note this if true is is probably the death knell for Sisters as an army. They will likely get no new units to speak of few if any of their issues will be addressed. It probbaly means no new models other than a possible plastic troop box which covers almost all the units they currently have and they will Finecast the rest.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> Wait a second...
> 
> No Failcast, No minis at all any more, 'Get you by WDex'...
> 
> Ummm...
> 
> Something doesn't add up here. At all.


Makes perfect sense to me, Old Man.

GW want to kill the Allies rules, but they don't have any plastic Sisters, and don't want to wait. (And can't be arsed to support the army) White Dwarf update, Q.E.D.


----------



## TraceofToxin

andrewm9 said:


> It probbaly means no new models other than a possible plastic troop box which covers almost all the units they currently have and they will Finecast the rest.


Honestly that'd be fine by me. I'd way rather get that than nothing and have to fork out 5-10 bucks for a special/heavy weapon *model*.


----------



## TheSpore

andrewm9 said:


> Given their current army builds Sisters excel at urban pacification but not long ranged fights like the IG do.
> 
> On another note this if true is is probably the death knell for Sisters as an army. They will likely get no new units to speak of few if any of their issues will be addressed. It probbaly means no new models other than a possible plastic troop box which covers almost all the units they currently have and they will Finecast the rest.


I honestly believe this to be false for man many reasons. The poster has no credability, cities of death is old as dirt and most of the rules are in the current 5th ed. BRB, 

Unless the fool owns a time machine or has unlocked the secrets to making his own flux compacitor there is no way in hell he got a copy of July's WD much less one that hasn't even been concieved yet.


----------



## Shandathe

uhrr... Trace, chances favor that means the Heavy weapon Sisters, at least, will be Finecast.

As in, probably more expensive.


----------



## Zion

After reading some of the new posts over on Warseer I have to say I appreciate whomever pointed out that it might be a preview to a full codex. 

IF this thing pans out to be legitimate I pray to the Emperor that is what this is and not a WD codex release.

EDIT: I'd really like to not have Finecast models. I'm sure they're going to improve in quality and all that, but I'm just too much of a spaz for resin. I knock at least three or four models off the table a week and I'm afraid I'd shatter them (teach me to not deploy so near the board edge...or not since I keep doing it).


----------



## Shandathe

Resin's fairly sturdy. Plus, less chance of paint chipping than on metal? 

Pfft. I still don't believe. We'll see what photoshops show up on Warseer later today, I guess.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheSpore said:


> I honestly believe this to be false for man many reasons. The poster has no credability, cities of death is old as dirt and most of the rules are in the current 5th ed. BRB,
> 
> Unless the fool owns a time machine or has unlocked the secrets to making his own flux compacitor there is no way in hell he got a copy of July's WD much less one that hasn't even been concieved yet.


WD is worked on just over three months in advance. They will currently be putting finishing touches on septembers issue, and be halfway through octobers preliminaries. Either way, even if this chap works for the US WD team, he will only just have gotten the files for august to tweak for the US market, and would get the sack for releasing its contents online.

So yeah, very unlikely he's got the August WD...


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Resin's fairly sturdy. Plus, less chance of paint chipping than on metal?
> 
> Pfft. I still don't believe. We'll see what photoshops show up on Warseer later today, I guess.


Eh, I'm still a complete spaz. I like plastic models a lot since they're not very likely to be damaged when I oafishly knock them over.


----------



## Shandathe

GW resin's pretty close to plastic. More so that FW deathresin, anyway.


----------



## TraceofToxin

Shandathe said:


> uhrr... Trace, chances favor that means the Heavy weapon Sisters, at least, will be Finecast.
> 
> As in, probably more expensive.


"possible plastic troop box which covers almost all the units they currently have "

With the 5 to a box rumors in mind, I thought 5 sisters bodies with bits for heavy/special weapons or seraphim.


----------



## Shandathe

Uhrrr... Please think about that 5 Sisters-a-box rumour logically for a second. If everything was in there, with the current rules, in order to build 5 Sisters with all the options required to be normal Sisters, Celestians, Retributors, Dominions AND Seraphim, in weaponry alone you're looking at:

5 Bolters, 4 Meltaguns, 4 Flamers, 5 Stormbolters, 4 Heavy Bolters, 4 Multi-Meltas, 10 Bolt pistols, 4 Hand Flamers, 4 Inferno Pistols, a Plasma pistol, a CC weapon, a Power Weapon, 5 backpacks (with support to make them into Jump variety), a variety of grenades, melta bombs... and I'm probably forgetting a couple things. 

It'd be like GW declaring it'll rain free Imperial weaponry.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

For those screaming about it being the August WD that's a misinterpretation as the last page of the WD we get this month will have the August cover on it and that is probably what he was looking at. or I could be wrong...

Anyways once we get some pics it might become clear if it's fake or not.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> For those screaming about it being the August WD that's a misinterpretation as the last page of the WD we get this month will have the August cover on it and that is probably what he was looking at. or I could be wrong...
> 
> Anyways once we get some pics it might become clear if it's fake or not.


That's my hope. Though I'd like to say "If we get some pics" because if this is just some troll trying to bring our hopes up only to leave us hanging....well considering it's the internet I wouldn't be too suprised.


----------



## Zion

So yeah. I'm officially depressed now. I'm hoping this is more of a sneak preview in the August WD than a full dex. Only time will tell for sure.

Source


----------



## Shandathe

... I'm inclined to offically call Bullshit now. That's the cover artwork of the current VC codex. Armybook. Whatever. And it's only like 3 years old.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> ... I'm inclined to offically call Bullshit now. That's the cover artwork of the current VC codex. Armybook. Whatever. And it's only like 3 years old.


I saw that too. But then again this wouldn't mark the first time GW has been lazy either.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> I saw that too. But then again this wouldn't mark the first time GW has been lazy either.


Im sure Ive seen old art work reused in the back cover of white dwarf before.


----------



## Zion

Maidel said:


> Im sure Ive seen old art work reused in the back cover of white dwarf before.


That's the problem for me. I only own three issues so I can't be sure how often they do it. I'm rather lost since my ability to debunk this is left adrift. Hence the depressed feeling.


----------



## Shandathe

It's fairly rare nowadays. There's also the fact that the font used for Warhammer is too large in the upper center (though it might be an American edition difference), and the picture has been cut out to avoid anything outside it... that, and I can't believe their biggest announcement (as in, cover story) for August is a VC monster.

Especially not with July being Warhammer already. August should be a 40K release... a real one.


----------



## Zion

I joined and posted asking for a couple more pictures...like the cover of that WD or the start of the Storms of Magic section. Because that one lone image just isn't enough to be verification by itself. At least not to me.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> I joined and posted asking for a couple more pictures...like the cover of that WD or the start of the Storms of Magic section. Because that one lone image just isn't enough to be verification by itself. At least not to me.


Added my voice to your querie.


I feel all dirty posting on whineseer again....


----------



## Zion

Maidel said:


> Added my voice to your querie.
> 
> 
> I feel all dirty posting on whineseer again....


Appreciated. I didn't want to join but someone had to be the voice of reason instead of jumping to conclusions like they do over there.


----------



## Shandathe

Proof is a picture of that alleged White Dwarf held in front of a monitor, showing a recent post behind it.

Something else... background and the _bestiary_? Methinks someone copied the wrong fluff bit.

Also, if it IS legit (and shouldn't someone else have received a WD by now too then?), there's an obvious bright side in that we just beat the fucking Necrons to an update.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Proof is a picture of that alleged White Dwarf held in front of a monitor, showing a recent post behind it.
> 
> Something else... background and the _bestiary_? Methinks someone copied the wrong fluff bit.
> 
> Also, if it IS legit (and shouldn't someone else have received a WD by now too then?), there's an obvious bright side in that we just beat the fucking Necrons to an update.


I'm in the US and -my- copy didn't show up today. I'm skeptical as all hell on a normal bases but this caught me so off-guard at first that I was floundering for a minute. Thankfully my rational brain caught up to my irrational one and kicked it's wrinkly backside back in line.

That said, there is a lot of context missing on this one little blurb [assuming it's real]. And with the GW site pumping out no real worthwhile content it's hard to know what's going on right now.

EDIT: This guy is all over Warseer all of a sudden posting promises for pictures. 12 posts so far....and only 1 uploaded image. If he's not fake he's definitely wearing a big sign that says "NOTICE ME".


----------



## Shandathe

As I said... Worst thing that can happen - and that should probably be used pretty loosely - is that we actually get an update. Finally.

Sure, it'll mostly be removed units - bye Allies, see ya Inquisition, don't let the door hit you on your way out - which will, overall, place us... well, where we've always been. 

An update AT LAST to Codex: Sisters of Battle. Sure, it took 14 years and a side trip to Witch Hunters (which only got us an Exorcist), but then you've got... well, probably nothing but updated point costs?

Emperor, deliver us...


----------



## rasolyo

Good enough for me.

Still waiting for those functional dozer blades.


----------



## Shandathe

If it's good enough for you, and it happens to be true... can I borrow some torches and pitchforks?


----------



## Shandathe

Aaand there's additional pictures from Storm of Magic.


----------



## rasolyo

I shall lend you some blood of the innocent. About a convent's worth.

And after reading the announcement again: What do they mean by "background and bestiary"? We're going to get beasts?

Urgh. Save me some of that blood.


----------



## Katie Drake

A Bestiary is just a list of the units available to the army.

Seriously guys, relax. A White Dwarf update isn't the end of the world, you should be excited, because you're _finally_ getting an update and this WD Codex won't be permanent. My guess is that it'll last roughly as long as the Blood Angel one did which came out in late 4th edition. It wasn't _too_ long a period, not as long as a normal Codex update.


----------



## Shandathe

True, it's not like we get stuck with this after the Dark Eldar and Grey Knights got great glorious relaunches, with the Necron one waiting in the wings.

Oh wait :laugh:

Ah well, as I said, it'll be an update - if likely a very small and highly disappointing one - so it's better than nothing. I still feel we're getting screwed over by GW *AGAIN*, though.


----------



## Zion

Katie Drake said:


> A Bestiary is just a list of the units available to the army.
> 
> Seriously guys, relax. A White Dwarf update isn't the end of the world, you should be excited, because you're _finally_ getting an update and this WD Codex won't be permanent. My guess is that it'll last roughly as long as the Blood Angel one did which came out in late 4th edition. It wasn't _too_ long a period, not as long as a normal Codex update.


If it's as bad as the Blood Angels one even existing for a second is too long.


----------



## Katie Drake

Am I to understand that Battle Sister players would prefer no update?



Zion said:


> If it's as bad as the Blood Angels one even existing for a second is too long.


It wasn't that bad until 5th edition, then it was pretty awful.


----------



## Necrosis

Here is how I see it: We get an update and then soon after 6th edition comes out and then we get a full Codex. Or would you rather get a codex now and then 6th edition comes out and we get screwed over.


----------



## Katie Drake

Necrosis said:


> Here is how I see it: We get an update and then soon after 6th edition comes out and then we get a full Codex. Or would you rather get a codex now and then 6th edition comes out and we get screwed over.


Thank you, someone with sense.


----------



## Shandathe

Given the quality of the admittedly small sample size of White Dwarf 'dexes we've seen... Yes, actually, I'd prefer not to have an update until an actual Codex comes along. It'd hurry that process along a bit at least. 

The Witch Hunters Codex may be creaking of old age, but I don't trust this thing at all. Chances are more will be removed than added (Note the Inquisition units have jumped to the GK codex already, and Allies WILL be gone). So we'll get some updates on points, with luck see some old SCs return, 'streamlining' of some units that'll decrease effectiveness (Prediction: Seraphim will end up with USR Hit and Run instead), and see nothing actually new at all. 

Well, that's not entirely correct. I expect Sister fluff to get completely screwed up. Given the rumours of 10-box Repentia and 5-box Sisters, plus what's happened to the Sisters in other codices... I'm inclined to think this will, at BEST, be a repeat of the Blood Angels Experiment in all it's technicolor gore.


----------



## Katie Drake

Shandathe said:


> Given the quality of the admittedly small sample size of White Dwarf 'dexes we've seen... Yes, actually, I'd prefer not to have an update until an actual Codex comes along. It'd hurry that process along a bit at least.


So you're willing to risk Battle Sisters becoming the Chaos Daemons of 6th edition? Okay then.



> The Witch Hunters Codex may be creaking of old age, but I don't trust this thing at all. Chances are more will be removed than added (Note the Inquisition units have jumped to the GK codex already, and Allies WILL be gone). So we'll get some updates on points, with luck see some old SCs return, 'streamlining' of some units that'll decrease effectiveness (Prediction: Seraphim will end up with USR Hit and Run instead), and see nothing actually new at all.


I'm not sure that being updated to work with the current edition of the game is a bad thing.



> Well, that's not entirely correct. I expect Sister fluff to get completely screwed up. Given the rumours of 10-box Repentia and 5-box Sisters, plus what's happened to the Sisters in other codices... I'm inclined to think this will, at BEST, be a repeat of the Blood Angels Experiment in all it's technicolor gore.


I'd expect Sister fluff to be almost entirely ignored if the Blood Angel WD Codex is any indication of what to expect. It was a few paragraphs and that's it. I wouldn't expect a "full" Codex with artwork, photographs of models and so on. It'll be a little bit of background and then the rules and precious little else.


----------



## Necrosis

The one thing I do like about this is that they say Ecclesiarchy and not Inquisition and the fact they call it the Codex: Sisters of Battle.


----------



## Shandathe

Oh, I've posted a few times that I'd like to have SOMETHING, but...

Thing is, for all that we're in a sorry state as is, Witch Hunters still works with the current edition. For all that I want to believe the only way is up, I'm sure a way to make things worse can be found. 

If GW had any kind of decent track record concerning the Sisters, I'd be more optimistic - I WAS - but... ever since the GK Codex... Blegh.

I'll withhold judgment until I have the entire thing in hand. We'll see. As Necrosis said, there's some small bits of light in the dark.


----------



## Kettu

Katie Drake said:


> My guess is that it'll last roughly as long as the Blood Angel one did which came out in late 4th edition. It wasn't _too_ long a period, not as long as a normal Codex update.


So... Three years then?

Whilst that isn't as long as a 'normal' update cycle, it really is. 
WD dexes never add anything to the army, it simply removes options and readjusts points and rules.

It'll bring the worse of things in line, nerf the good, drop some and really, have achieved sweet-FA in the end.

So getting a WD 'hold you over' dex isn't an update but a sign that there is no update any time soon.

To add to this, there is no SoB Failcast coming, I don't eve know IF you can order metals anymore and they have never released new minis to go with a WDex. So, yeah...


----------



## AlexHolker

Kettu said:


> ...they have never released new minis to go with a WDex.


Not true. While they're old examples, both the Necrons and Kislev got WD army lists and (metal) miniatures at the same time.


----------



## Synack

Meh. I would have prefered Necrons to be next, simply because I've just spent a whole bunch of money on upgrading my GK army, I can't afford to do the same with SoB.


----------



## Kettu

AlexHolker said:


> Not true. While they're old examples, both the Necrons and Kislev got WD army lists and (metal) miniatures at the same time.


Necrons were in 2nd ed, different way of doing things back then.
Kislev was also an attempt to make them a vaild army, it didn't work for what ever reason. (Probably to do with the Ogres. As I understand it, they didn't sell as well as GW thought it would)

Valid points but neither applies in the end.


----------



## Azezel

Shandathe said:


> Oh, I've posted a few times that I'd like to have SOMETHING, but...
> 
> Thing is, for all that we're in a sorry state as is, Witch Hunters still works with the current edition. For all that I want to believe the only way is up, I'm sure a way to make things worse can be found.


This is how I feel. Flawed as it may be, the current 'dex works - I still win more often than I loose, even against fifth edition armies.

Same with Models - I have all I need and they are still nice models, even after 15 years.


A new codex would be nice, it'd expand the army, give me additional units and tactics to explore. A White Dwarf update is unlikely to do either of those things. Chances are it will simply excise the Inquisition and Allies rules (A good thing, but irrelevant since I never use =][= or Allies anyway).

So, given that it's unlikely to make the army better, all that's left is to make it worse by, for example, closing our hit and run loophole. A small enough thing, but still not exactly good news.


----------



## coke123

A mate just texted me confirmation of a WD SoB codex in August- is this true?

Sorry to seem lazy, but my laptop just crashed and it's a pain to check through this thread on my phone.


----------



## Maidel

Yes

4567890


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, is it a bad sign that I'm beginning to look forwards to this WD dex? Does this mean I've basically given up? Surrendered my soul to the will of GW?
Entered a life so pathetic it can be compared to someone who has to fake orgasm when masturbating just to get a tiny fragment of satisfaction?

From the picture I get the impression there wont be any rules in the August issue, just fluff and such and then the rules in the Sep one.


----------



## Grogbart

Well, I hope the changes make it worthwhile to get these WDs and not just tempt to cross out things and replace point costs in your printout of the curret PDF-Codex.

On the Subject of OBVIOUS changes:
Back in 2007 when I started Sisters, German printed Codices have already run out and so I got me the first (of three) German Online-Codices. One of the first mistakes I noticed (apart from a misspell on the very Cover!) was the missing stats for the Multilaser of the inquisitorial Chimera. As a Reference page was missing altogether, I looked into a printed copy once I had the chance to and nothing there, too. Same in the English and any other languages too?

Then came the switch to PDF for everyone, my second PDF-Codex, this time including a Reference page, but still no Multilaser stats! They didn't even care to remove weapons not present in the Codex anymore (mortar, autocannon, heavy stubber...).
The third PDF-Codex came shortly after, when realizing the (supposed) main goal of removing allies failed, because they missed a little box right next to Lord Inquisitor. Other than that no changes again.
I don't know many errata GW did for the WH Codex, but they never solved this particular problem either.

If they continue to treat the Sisters with the same amount of 'care' in the upcoming WDex...


----------



## coke123

Maidel said:


> Yes
> 
> 4567890


Cheers.

That's sort of... lame. I don't play Sisters myself, but if I did, I'd rather wait and get a proper nice one... Oh well.


----------



## TheSpore

Thisn is bullshit for the smount of time ive waited for a new dex we get a few pages of nothing mor etha bull shit. excuse the language but ts true they can update the DE after so many years but they cant give the SoBs the same respect. Utter BULLSHIT


----------



## Azezel

Grogbart said:


> On the Subject of OBVIOUS changes:
> Back in 2007 when I started Sisters, German printed Codices have already run out and so I got me the first (of three) German Online-Codices. One of the first mistakes I noticed (apart from a misspell on the very Cover!) was the missing stats for the Multilaser of the inquisitorial Chimera. As a Reference page was missing altogether, I looked into a printed copy once I had the chance to and nothing there, too. Same in the English and any other languages too?


No, the multilaser stats aren't in either of the printed English codices or the .PDFs.


Question: Will this WD update replace the printed 'dex, or will it still be legal?


----------



## Synack

multilaser stats aren't in the current GK codex either ^.^


----------



## Shandathe

You know Azezel, that's a good question. Sure, with an update to a Codex it's *implied* previous version(s) shouldn't be used anymore, but...

And no MCC, I think that's just natural optimism


----------



## Grogbart

With the GK Codex the Multilaser is not in the Reference page, but on page 51, within the chimera entry. Nothing for GW to be proud of, but at least somewhere within the Codex!

Edit: And the GK Codex has not been rereleased three times already with the same mistake!


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Here is how I see it: We get an update and then soon after 6th edition comes out and then we get a full Codex. Or would you rather get a codex now and then 6th edition comes out and we get screwed over.


Grey Knights, and everything that follows it, is 6th Ed compatible. New editions of 40K rulebooks are written over the course of about 2.5 years, and everything released in the year preceding it's release is compatible. There may be minor discrepancies as last minute changes are made, but you don't need to worry about huge things changing and making anything invalid. 

And anyway, even if a WD update comes around you aren't forced to use it, unless you're using WH in a Tourney or have particularly anal GW staff running your local shop. 

Also, for everyone saying "bye bye Inquisition"... they didn't remove them from GK, why would they remove them from a Sisters Codex? The Sisters do work with the Ordo Hereticus a lot, after all. That Inquisitor should get more options than the other two in this one, as the Malleus one seemed to get more options in the GK Codex. They just won't feature as heavily as they once did, and your big Character is likely to be chap in a Chair of Doom...


----------



## Shandathe

Minor discrepancies? Sisters Codex had always been last before a new Edition before, and if you'll look in Witch Hunters you'll find such gems as having complete protection from minor psychic powers. Which in the Edition immediately following it, did no longer exist. There's more like that. Invalidating Sisters of Battle things in a following edition is a tradition 

Concerning the Inquisition, unlike the GK the Sisters of Battle already had a perfectly good allegiance without the Inquisition, and most Sisters players never WANTED the Inquisition cluttering things up. The entry of Karamazov instead of Helena and Praxedes *sucked*. It didn't make any sense in the first place to mix Psykers into the Sisters, but removing Sisters for them was just meh - especially since all the Sisters themselves got was the Exorcist.

Characters are generally restricted to a single Codex, so that'll likely be the end of Karamazov's involvement (mind you, I don't think GK players like him any better). Yes, there'll probably be a token Hereticus entry, but overall I expect the Inquisition to be gone.


----------



## The Sullen One

Katie Drake said:


> A Bestiary is just a list of the units available to the army.
> 
> Seriously guys, relax. A White Dwarf update isn't the end of the world, you should be excited, because you're _finally_ getting an update and this WD Codex won't be permanent. My guess is that it'll last roughly as long as the Blood Angel one did which came out in late 4th edition. It wasn't _too_ long a period, not as long as a normal Codex update.


Strange word to use, bestiary. After all it's a list of beasts, so unless Sisters are going to get Thunderwolves or Jokaero Cardinals (or maybe even the Space Pope) why use it?

As for a White Dwarf update, of course we've got a right to be unhappy. Can you imagine the scenes where other players have their nice, printed, codices and we have a copy of White Dwarf with a vampire on the front? Or multiple copies so we've got all the rules in front of us. Worse yet, just imagine having to play against or near kids and all the snide comments they'll be making. Sorry, but this seems like a 'Frak you very much' from GW if it's true. To me, the only way this would be a good thing was if the update was similar to the get-you-by army book for Chaos Warriors that was avaliable in WD 342. If that's the case (and the release of Grey Knights may support this argument, since Karamazov is now in two codices), then this is okay. Otherwise...


----------



## Azezel

Shandathe said:


> You know Azezel, that's a good question. Sure, with an update to a Codex it's *implied* previous version(s) shouldn't be used anymore, but...


Well, I don't doubt that my club will let me carry on using Codex: Witch Hunters, which I very well might do. Hell, I'm not even sure that I could buy a copy of White Dwarf on this island if I wanted to, but unless it adds aditional options for Sisters, there seems little impetous to 'upgrade', at least in the short term.


On the other hand, I can't seem to stop myself from buying anything with a Battle Sister in it, so why should this be any different...

Hell.


----------



## Zion

I love how many people who don't play Sisters are saying "Be happy! You're getting updated!"

Here's my problem with that line of thought:

1. No new models are likely to come with this update. No new models means no new players. No new players means GW doesn't make any money which means we don't see another update since we're "risky".

2. The last codex that got one of these updates didn't see a new codex for three years and got horribly screwed over by the new edition to the point that die-hard Blood Angels players were using the Vanilla Marines codex to represent their army. The possibility of this ALONE makes this bad news.

3. It's not your codex that's getting hit with the "F---- You" stick so stop trying to smooth over the whole issue. Those of us who play the army have more of a right to worry and complain about it than you do to tell us not too.

4. We get to carry around a White Dwarf as our codex. Looks REAL good, don't it? No. It looks just as bad as running around with a printed off net-dex that looks like you pirated the thing.

4. The worst case scenario is that my pessimism will be right and I'll avoid the White Dwarf rules like the pox they're likely to be. Best case scenario I end up suprised and enjoy playing the new rules. 

In the end, this comes down to what really comes out in the next update. Personally I'm curious but at the same time dreading the possibilities and bracing for the worst.


----------



## mcmuffin

Zion said:


> I love how many people who don't play Sisters are saying "Be happy! You're getting updated!"
> 
> Here's my problem with that line of thought:
> 
> 1. No new models are likely to come with this update. No new models means no new players. No new players means GW doesn't make any money which means we don't see another update since we're "risky".


who says? there haven't been that many WD codices, blood angels and necrons (testing the water) are the only ones i can recall, and necrons got models. i can see a small release a lá space wolves (without the codex) with a bulk out to come with the full codex in a year or so



> 2. The last codex that got one of these updates didn't see a new codex for three years and got horribly screwed over by the new edition to the point that die-hard Blood Angels players were using the Vanilla Marines codex to represent their army. The possibility of this ALONE makes this bad news.


 i think GW realised what a fuck up this was and will not make the same mistake again. i expect this is more like an erratta to bring them up to date and keep them playable in 6th ed also



> 3. It's not your codex that's getting hit with the "F---- You" stick so stop trying to smooth over the whole issue. Those of us who play the army have more of a right to worry and complain about it than you do to tell us not too.


i am not saying not to complain in my post, merely that this is something rather than GW pretending sisters don't exist at all



> 4. We get to carry around a White Dwarf as our codex. Looks REAL good, don't it? No. It looks just as bad as running around with a printed off net-dex that looks like you pirated the thing.


good point on that one


> 4. The worst case scenario is that my pessimism will be right and I'll avoid the White Dwarf rules like the pox they're likely to be. Best case scenario I end up suprised and enjoy playing the new rules.


see, it could end up that the rules are nicely done, and with the disaster that was BA, i think that GW realise they will have to do something


> In the end, this comes down to what really comes out in the next update. Personally I'm curious but at the same time dreading the possibilities and bracing for the worst.


I think that if this release is done well, it could work, but we cannot judge what we don't have yet.


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> I think that if this release is done well, it could work, but we cannot judge what we don't have yet.


That's what it comes down to right there. And if it's good I'll be nice and happy. But it's a big wait and see right at the moment.

I'm just sick of seeing the 800+ posts on the internet from people who can't seem to remember that GW is famous for making VERY bad decisions and expect people who play Sisters to be overly ecstatic about something they haven't seen yet.

EDIT:

I do like the healthy skepticism over on Warseer by some of the posters regarding that possible update page. We haven't seen anything proving it's not a Photoshop job, and it's been pointed out that it'd only take someone mildly good at Photoshop to pull it off. Not to mention that it'd be a good place to hide a fake is by giving some truth too. So that's a small ray of hope for those of us who'd rather just sit tight and wait for a real codex I guess.


----------



## oiad

SilverTabby said:


> ...
> 
> Also, for everyone saying "bye bye Inquisition"... they didn't remove them from GK, why would they remove them from a Sisters Codex? The Sisters do work with the Ordo Hereticus a lot, after all. That Inquisitor should get more options than the other two in this one, as the Malleus one seemed to get more options in the GK Codex. They just won't feature as heavily as they once did, and your big Character is likely to be chap in a Chair of Doom...


It's do with the appearance of Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors and Karamazov in C:GK that's done it. Its very doubtful that Karamazov would appear in two different codices.

As for the lack of a role for the OH Inquisitor, you could say it's typical edition changing. OH Inquisitors were more useful in previous editions to OM Inquisitors. Personally, I don't think they should have differentiated between the Ordos; e.g. What if I want an Inquisitor from one of the minor Ordos?


----------



## Shandathe

Let me make a few obvious predictions about this WDex:

1. No more Allies.
2. Faith will be streamlined. Expect this to mean individual Acts of Faith will be less powerful, but you'll get more of them.
3. Armoury goes bye-bye. Units only get specific upgrades, meaning you can forget grabbing that Meltabomb for the VSS that just might come in handy.
4. Standardization on USRs. Seraphim get standard Hit and Run (bad), Repentia get Feel No Pain instead of armour save (good) and Rage (not so good, but hell, they're useless at the moment anyway), and so on.
5. Standardization of point costs to SM levels. Rhino 35 (with EA +15), Retributors can pick between Multi-Melta and HB both at +15, and so on. This is mostly a good thing.
6. Certain units that are now highly overpriced will be reduced some (Repentia, Penitent Engine). This'll either be too much (and drastically change their roles from fluff) or too little (and keep them overpriced).
7. The vast majority of Inquisition gets shown the door - a token presence will be left, but they're mainly pushed into the GK Codex already. I consider this a good thing, YMMV. 
8. Aside from possibly the return of Helena/Praxedes, nothing new is added. Should anything be added, models for such will be missing in action.


----------



## Shandathe

mcmuffin said:


> I think that if this release is done well, it could work, but we cannot judge what we don't have yet.


Done well would require a full Codex and new models. A grand re-release a la Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

It's not being done well. That's essentially the problem.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Done well would require a full Codex and new models. A grand re-release a la Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.
> 
> It's not being done well. That's essentially the problem.


Agreed. That's why I'm hoping that instead of a WD release that the issue will actually be drumming up hype for a new [FULL] Sisters Dex release and they're doing this because Sisters are so rarely seen these days.

Granted I've been wrong before but I think it'd be the best outcome that could come from this news to be honest.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Let me make a few obvious predictions about this WDex:
> 
> 1. No more Allies.
> 2. Faith will be streamlined. Expect this to mean individual Acts of Faith will be less powerful, but you'll get more of them.
> 3. Armoury goes bye-bye. Units only get specific upgrades, meaning you can forget grabbing that Meltabomb for the VSS that just might come in handy.
> 4. Standardization on USRs. Seraphim get standard Hit and Run (bad), Repentia get Feel No Pain instead of armour save (good) and Rage (not so good, but hell, they're useless at the moment anyway), and so on.
> 5. Standardization of point costs to SM levels. Rhino 35 (with EA +15), Retributors can pick between Multi-Melta and HB both at +15, and so on. This is mostly a good thing.
> 6. Certain units that are now highly overpriced will be reduced some (Repentia, Penitent Engine). This'll either be too much (and drastically change their roles from fluff) or too little (and keep them overpriced).
> 7. The vast majority of Inquisition gets shown the door - a token presence will be left, but they're mainly pushed into the GK Codex already. I consider this a good thing, YMMV.
> 8. Aside from possibly the return of Helena/Praxedes, nothing new is added. Should anything be added, models for such will be missing in action.


Wow, you are really optimistic about this update! All I expect is the removal of Inquisition, IST, Henchmen, Allies rules, Karmazov. That's it, nothing more, no points reductions, no fixes, no new rules, no new models, no new fluff or anything one could desire. Basically the PDF we can download now but with the removal of all of the above.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Wow, you are really optimistic about this update! All I expect is the removal of Inquisition, IST, Henchmen, Allies rules, Karmazov. That's it, nothing more, no points reductions, no fixes, no new rules, no new models, no new fluff or anything one could desire. Basically the PDF we can download now but with the removal of all of the above.


I'm expecting a giant middle finger [or rather the British "V" fingers] in the middle of the White Dwarf right next to the words "F*CK Sisters of Battle! Play Space Marines You Pansies!"

So anything else would be an improvement over that I guess.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here are some more rumours.

Source
We are all shocked by the Sisters of Battle coming out as a White Dwarf release, but perhaps there is something in the future besides a pdf release. There is a lot of talk about how bad this will be and how GW promised they would never do another White Dwarf (pdf) codex. But, here we are......

Of course this also sounds like a little bit of wish listing, but perhaps there is some truth to it. We did hear originally that Sisters of Battle will be getting a codex in November, so could this just be a prelude?

These are more speculation than rumor. So please take these as possibilities, not rumors.

via Polaria
WD Codex will come out at the same time with 1 or 2 plastic sets and some finecast stuff. The WD codex will not, however, 'push' back, 'delay' or 'be the death of' Sisters of Battle as a line. A full Codex and the full-size release will come out in 2012. Think of this as prelude wave. Or a sneak peek.

there was the mysterious comment by Stickmonkey saying "Sisters love their rides", which some people interpreted as Sisters of Battle bikers and others as something totally different... (repressors)


----------



## Shandathe

It's not so much optimism, it's me expecting GW to be as lazy and sparse as possible. An USR is easier than writing down something with exceptions. They're well aware of what SM costs are and won't be willing to spend the time and effort to figure out different ones for the Sisters, and so on.

The armoury thing will take someone half a day, but again they can largely borrow from the SM (and the remaining point costs from the current one), and it fits their current codices far better than letting people have free reign. Note quite a few bits of kit are likely to disappear on us here.

Faith will be the token actual effort, as in "Look, we *changed* something, really". It'll be somewhat streamlined compared to the current model. But it won't be playtested


----------



## gen.ahab

Zion said:


> I love how many people who don't play Sisters are saying "Be happy! You're getting updated!"
> 
> Here's my problem with that line of thought:
> 
> 1. No new models are likely to come with this update. No new models means no new players. No new players means GW doesn't make any money which means we don't see another update since we're "risky".


The ENTIRE reason that you are getting a WD STOPGAP is because they are WORKING on the models, but they aren't ready YET. Iow, once the models are ready and stocked, the codex will probably be realeased for 6th edition with a new range of models, or at least several new boxes. So sayith my man.


----------



## Shandathe

Gen.ahab, let's pretend we don't know that. Because we don't. It's not been confirmed, it *won't* be confirmed, and the last stopgap lasted 3 years.


----------



## Maidel

gen.ahab said:


> The ENTIRE reason that you are getting a WD STOPGAP is because they are WORKING on the models, but they aren't ready YET. Iow, once the models are ready and stocked, the codex will probably be realeased for 6th edition with a new range of models, or at least several new boxes. So sayith my man.


Tell that to the fantasy chaos dwarfs - they got a wd 'codex' and then promptly got dropped - about 15 years later forge world do the models...


----------



## gen.ahab

Shandathe said:


> Gen.ahab, let's pretend we don't know that. Because we don't. It's not been confirmed, it *won't* be confirmed, and the last stopgap lasted 3 years.


Don't need to pretend, because, as you said, we don't. Truth is that you are right and we won't till GW says as much, however, I can say that I can trust that to be the case.



Maidel said:


> Tell that to the fantasy chaos dwarfs - they got a wd 'codex' and then promptly got dropped - about 15 years later forge world do the models...


This isn't the reason that this line is getting a WD. The reason, least what I have heard, is that they are pushing them back because the robes are being a royal pain in the ass. These very well could go the way of CD, but I doubt it.


AGAIN, this is just going off what I have heard; all of this could very well be a great steaming load of horse shit.


----------



## Zion

gen.ahab said:


> The ENTIRE reason that you are getting a WD STOPGAP is because they are WORKING on the models, but they aren't ready YET. Iow, once the models are ready and stocked, the codex will probably be realeased for 6th edition with a new range of models, or at least several new boxes. So sayith my man.


Until it comes from GW's mouth it's as unconfirmed as everything else and can't be treated as fact. As I said, it's wrong to try and force people to accept something they haven't seen. In fact I find it distasteful and offensive really. Would you be so excited to be told your next codex was coming out in a magazine and there was no sign of a real update in sight?

Yeah. I don't think so.

So can we stop the posturing already and focus on finding out more before we try to cram a new codex down someone's throat when no one has seen it yet already?


----------



## Maidel

gen.ahab said:


> This isn't the reason that this line is getting a WD. The reason, least what I have heard, is that they are pushing them back because the robes are being a royal pain in the ass. These very well could go the way of CD, but I doubt it.
> 
> 
> AGAIN, this is just going off what I have heard; all of this could very well be a great steaming load of horse shit.


At the time that wasnt the reason why chaos dwarfs got a wd release - apparantly that was because they ran out of time in the studio to take on a full army release and did it in wd because it was quicker (bit like they said with blood angels).

And then, because no one bought the models (Which were already old at that point) they 'killed them off' and didnt bother continuing the range.

Blood angels already have a pretty damn good following so they had no worries, the sisters, well they were already an under developed army with little following.

Heres hoping...


----------



## gen.ahab

Zion said:


> Until it comes from GW's mouth it's as unconfirmed as everything else and can't be treated as fact. As I said, it's wrong to try and force people to accept something they haven't seen. In fact I find it distasteful and offensive really. Would you be so excited to be told your next codex was coming out in a magazine and there was no sign of a real update in sight?
> 
> Yeah. I don't think so.


No, I probably wouldn't be excited, but then again I wouldn't be running around like chicken little screaming that the sky if falling the fuck down. Did I say you should be happy? No. Did I say you should be excited? No. Did I even say you should treat it as absolute fact? Not really, though maybe I should have been more clear. All I said that was that what I was hearing was that this is just a stopgap and that it (the codex) would come out once the models were finished. So, in summation, calm the fuck down, skippy. k:



Maidel said:


> Heres hoping...


Indeed.


----------



## Zion

gen.ahab said:


> So, in summation, calm the fuck down, skippy. k:


You may not know this, but I am calm. I'm just asking for people to stop telling me to like what's coming when it's not here yet. I've been scouring the net trying to find some more information [and waiting for Blood of Kittens to grow up and post whatever it is they claim to know] and I'm seeing it EVERYWHERE. The basic issue is that most of the people who are saying it don't play the army, don't know much about the army and think anything is better than nothing [after playing Chaos Marines for a while now, I can definitely say it's not].

We're dealing with a Lady or the Tiger situation, and with luck we don't get the tiger [or end up in a situation where either outcome is a tiger].


----------



## SilverTabby

I'll just say for the record that I could have found out all the answers to these questions on wednesday, and been sure that it was 100% accurate. However, I didn't ask and he didn't say, for one very good reason. 

Those who actually know the answers will not say. They like their jobs. Every single rumour on here comes secondhand at best, and the best you will get is conjectre based off snatched glances where glances shouldn't have happened. I never believe rumours, no matter how plausible, until I see what actually comes out because I had far too long on the other side giggling at some of the random rubbish and wild guesswork that came up on forums. 

In short, calm down, don't let rumourmongers rile you up. Getting upset won't change anything. Be patient and bitch after the fact :wink:


----------



## Zion

Source

TastyTaste's hint at whatever it is he's going to tell us later this weekend. 

I've spent a little time trying to figure it out and either stuff is getting the cut or stuff is being tied together into a different format...or something. Honestly I can't recognize half the clues he used [namely the woman and the group of guys] so I can't make heads or tails of this thing.

EDIT: Just to clarify I'm only including this blasted thing for the sake of completeness.


----------



## Shandathe

Let's see... 

We have
1. A toy fortress (Plastic soldiers!)
2. Not sure who she is, though I feel I SHOULD. 
3. I'm told that's 50 Cent ( Got me there)
4. Henchman no. 21 ( And there. EDIT: Minion of the Monarch, wasn't he? Close enough to the Emperor... )
5. The torture of Sisyphus (Okay, that's appropriate in terms of us never getting a break)
6. An HTML merge ( bringing it all together? )
7. Stitches ( ... in a Frankenstein kind of way )


----------



## Vhalyar

As an added note, when he first posted that picture he said there were two rumors being referenced in it.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Let's see...
> 
> We have
> 1. A toy fortress (Plastic soldiers!)
> 2. Not sure who she is, though I feel I SHOULD.
> 3. I'm told that's 50 Cent ( Got me there)
> 4. Henchman no. 21 ( And there. EDIT: Minion of the Monarch, wasn't he? Close enough to the Emperor... )
> 5. The torture of Sisyphus (Okay, that's appropriate in terms of us never getting a break)
> 6. An HTML merge ( bringing it all together? )
> 7. Stitches ( ... in a Frankenstein kind of way )


1. From what I hear that's the GI Headquarters from the 80s
2. No idea either
3. I don't know about this one either.
4. Yeah, a Henchman of the Monarch.
5. I feel that the clue might be more about the fact that the rock is heavy?
6. Yeah, I couldn't figure that out exactly either
7. Stitches [as in something being fixed?], or cuts [as in something is going away?]?

Supposedly the placement and order of the pictures have some significance but I don't see it.


----------



## gen.ahab

She is the chick from The Legend of the Seaker. Not sure what the hell her pic means, but I think it has something to do with awesome boobs.

So, my guess is that the next SoB codex is going to have something to do with a heavily fortified strip club filled with nun strippers with awesome tits, frequented by rich black guys, run by bug people and owned by a naked weightlifter..... Ya.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I hate it when shittytaste posts things like this, it's fucking retarded!
Even if we do figure it out there is no way of knowing until he reveals it anyways.
It's a complete waste of time and all it does is aggravate people who come up with the wrong conclusions.

It's a prison, where Tastytaste dreams about women, but all he gets are black guys, now he has become their bitch, working their balls all day, 4 people violate his ass every night and now he needs stitches to sew his ass back together... am I close?

Gonna go post this on his blog


----------



## Shandathe

My guess: He was going to the store to buy more terrain pieces. Then he was distracted by a beautiful woman!

... shortly after which, he met her boyfriend. And his friends.

Now he's in a hospital, the morphine makes the nurse look kind of weird and orange, but without it, he'd feel tortured like Sisyphus. At least they managed to put him back together, though it took a lot of stitches.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I hate it when shittytaste posts things like this, it's fucking retarded!


Maybe you should calm down and just ignore him, if it gets your blood boiling this badly? 

It's pretty childish and worse than his hit-baiting, no offense.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate his rumours but I just hate the way he presents them.

It's never clear cut, you literally have to try and translate his posts afterwards and even then you can't be sure of what he meant.

I take it he has some good sources but it's just the way he posts stuff. Come to think of it he posts rumours in the same way GW would be likely to if they did. Maybe he's Matt Ward or something?


----------



## Shandathe

Well, if Matt Ward were writing the Sister WDex...

...

Actually, I'd have more confidence in the thing if I knew that to be the case. Best of both worlds. Matt-Ward-rules and not enough room for Matt-Ward-fluff


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

Tried to read the last couple pages of this gaint ass thread to see if this has been posted yet but gave up.

Saw this on a blog a look at every now and then, it pretty much confirms a WD release for Codex: Sisters of Battle.

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/

For my part I'm happy for an update, only thing I'm sad about is the probable death of Allies all together. Was hopin' to use the C:WH Allies for another year or so, Oh well.

Edit: Sorry, just ignore me. Should've looked at the update on the 1st page.


----------



## stenographer

Hello everyone. I have been lurking since you guys started rounding up the sisters rumors. I have been interested in playing a sisters force since I began reading about and ultimately playing wh40k, but I have been holding out for plastics. Though I am not too keen on the notion of a WD army list, I'm trying to keep positive. Hopefully we will see some new models sooner as opposed to later. Either way, in light of recent events, I thought I would throw my two cents in.

Though the BoK "rumormatrix" is a royal pain, I took a look at it and I think I have a pretty good idea of what it means.

The seven images broken into two groups:

Group 1
1. (GI JOE) Headquarters
2. (50 Cent and G-)Unit
3. Mother Confessor (Kahlan Amnell form Legend of the Seeker)
4. Henchman (21)

Group 2
5. Sisyphus
6. Condense/Combine?
7. 2 Cuts

Ignoring the portions in parentheses, group 1 gives us the suggestion of a confessor HQ unit, possibly female, with henchmen of some kind.

Group 2 is a little more difficult. I don't quite know what to make of Sisyphus in particular. One possibility is that it isn't Sisyphus at all, but a reference to the powers of faith (IE: moving mountains). In this case, group 2 seems to suggest that faith powers are going to be slimmed down and two of the powers may be cut entirely.

Just some idle considerations.


----------



## Zion

stenographer said:


> Hello everyone. I have been lurking since you guys started rounding up the sisters rumors. I have been interested in playing a sisters force since I began reading about and ultimately playing wh40k, but I have been holding out for plastics. Though I am not too keen on the notion of a WD army list, I'm trying to keep positive. Hopefully we will see some new models sooner as opposed to later. Either way, in light of recent events, I thought I would throw my two cents in.
> 
> Though the BoK "rumormatrix" is a royal pain, I took a look at it and I think I have a pretty good idea of what it means.
> 
> The seven images broken into two groups:
> 
> Group 1
> 1. (GI JOE) Headquarters
> 2. (50 Cent and G-)Unit
> 3. Mother Confessor (Kahlan Amnell form Legend of the Seeker)
> 4. Henchman (21)
> 
> Group 2
> 5. Sisyphus
> 6. Condense/Combine?
> 7. 2 Cuts
> 
> Ignoring the portions in parentheses, group 1 gives us the suggestion of a confessor HQ unit, possibly female, with henchmen of some kind.
> 
> Group 2 is a little more difficult. I don't quite know what to make of Sisyphus in particular. One possibility is that it isn't Sisyphus at all, but a reference to the powers of faith (IE: moving mountains). In this case, group 2 seems to suggest that faith powers are going to be slimmed down and two of the powers may be cut entirely.
> 
> Just some idle considerations.


Huh. That actually makes a lot of sense. And since two of the powers are pretty useless [I hope those are the ones getting cut at least. It'd REALLY suck if they cut the good ones. Nice work there.


----------



## Katie Drake

stenographer said:


> Hello everyone. I have been lurking since you guys started rounding up the sisters rumors. I have been interested in playing a sisters force since I began reading about and ultimately playing wh40k, but I have been holding out for plastics. Though I am not too keen on the notion of a WD army list, I'm trying to keep positive. Hopefully we will see some new models sooner as opposed to later. Either way, in light of recent events, I thought I would throw my two cents in.
> 
> Though the BoK "rumormatrix" is a royal pain, I took a look at it and I think I have a pretty good idea of what it means.
> 
> The seven images broken into two groups:
> 
> Group 1
> 1. (GI JOE) Headquarters
> 2. (50 Cent and G-)Unit
> 3. Mother Confessor (Kahlan Amnell form Legend of the Seeker)
> 4. Henchman (21)
> 
> Group 2
> 5. Sisyphus
> 6. Condense/Combine?
> 7. 2 Cuts
> 
> Ignoring the portions in parentheses, group 1 gives us the suggestion of a confessor HQ unit, possibly female, with henchmen of some kind.
> 
> Group 2 is a little more difficult. I don't quite know what to make of Sisyphus in particular. One possibility is that it isn't Sisyphus at all, but a reference to the powers of faith (IE: moving mountains). In this case, group 2 seems to suggest that faith powers are going to be slimmed down and two of the powers may be cut entirely.
> 
> Just some idle considerations.


Wow, holy crap. Nice work. +rep


----------



## gen.ahab

Nice work, rather well done. However, I prefer my strip club idea.


----------



## mahavira

Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the art on the so-called cover of the WD Dex isn't just recycled cover art from the VC Codex, it's also recycled from a WD. While I know they are lazy enough to recycle art in general, this strikes me as unusually lazy. Also, the one question I can't think of an answer to is this: how does a webdex help them sell models? With the exception of Russian Oligarchs, no human being is going to start a sisters of battle army in the current "at best blister packs of 3" mode, and anyone who plays sisters is unlikely to expand until there are new models (or old models available in sane prices and/or numbers). Rereleasing the metals as finecast probably wouldn't help, except maybe for Seraphim (the reduced weight would make them less tippy and make the backpacks falling off a bit less likely).

If the goal is just to kill the ally rules, that is more easily achieved through the faq/errata page: just say "the ally rule, and inducted IG/Marines are no longer allowed." and be done with it, just like they got rid of "armored fist squads" from the inducted IG list.

If the goal is to serve as a preview, why would they want to do that and leave them with nothing to talk about when they release an actual codex?

If the goal is to serve as a stopgap/throw us a bone, a) why now? and b) why bother? With the recent Dark Eldar and Grey Knights releases, it seems more likely to aggravate people (see comments above) than cause us to roll over to have our collective bellies scratched, and will do absolutely nothing for sales for the reasons stated above. Leaving a more or less sleeping dog to lie seems wiser. But then again, this is a company that apparently pulled all the squad boxes from shelves before even starting work on new models.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the art on the so-called cover of the WD Dex isn't just recycled cover art from the VC Codex, it's also recycled from a WD.  While I know they are lazy enough to recycle art in general, this strikes me as unusually lazy. Also, the one question I can't think of an answer to is this: how does a webdex help them sell models? With the exception of Russian Oligarchs, no human being is going to start a sisters of battle army in the current "at best blister packs of 3" mode, and anyone who plays sisters is unlikely to expand until there are new models (or old models available in sane prices and/or numbers). Rereleasing the metals as finecast probably wouldn't help, except maybe for Seraphim (the reduced weight would make them less tippy and make the backpacks falling off a bit less likely).


Actually there are a few of us out there who will start a Sisters army even in these current prices [compared to a Guard leafblower army I saved at least $900 USD! :biggrin:], but I'd just gotten a small bonus and had grown tired of waiting to start an army I've been wanting to play for a few years now [I had a desire to start them the same time GW stopped stocking over half the product line ] But yeah, I agree the average person isn't going to start an army of Sisters right now without new kits.



mahavira said:


> If the goal is just to kill the ally rules, that is more easily achieved through the faq/errata page: just say "the ally rule, and inducted IG/Marines are no longer allowed." and be done with it, just like they got rid of "armored fist squads" from the inducted IG list.


Hm. Good point, that's something they could have done years ago.



mahavira said:


> If the goal is to serve as a preview, why would they want to do that and leave them with nothing to talk about when they release an actual codex?


That's actually just my wishing that the WD article is a teaser to start teasing us up for the new stuff. And they're still releasing Dark Eldar articles with every new kit release so I can't imagine them running out of things to say to be honest.



mahavira said:


> If the goal is to serve as a stopgap/throw us a bone, a) why now? and b) why bother? With the recent Dark Eldar and Grey Knights releases, it seems more likely to aggravate people (see comments above) than cause us to roll over to have our collective bellies scratched, and will do absolutely nothing for sales for the reasons stated above. Leaving a more or less sleeping dog to lie seems wiser. But then again, this is a company that apparently pulled all the squad boxes from shelves before even starting work on new models.


Again you make a valid point. Something else that bugs me is that from what I understood after the outcry regarding the Blood Angels WD/Web-dex that GW wasn't going to do that again because of how bad the reaction was. So why do it again?

The questions you've raised echo some of my own and are why I'm still on the fence about this. Either way neither side [real codex and WD dex respectively] has been able to produce any pictures validating their claims [and from the claims both should be at a stage where such pictures could be obtained] and even then they'd be hotly disputed on how real they are.

Lets face it, we won't know what's going on for another two weeks, then we'll see if it is. And on the off-chance it is, then another four from there to see what GW has in mind.


----------



## Grogbart

Concerning that bloody Kitten-Rumour.

I am not good with riddles, but I figured the easiest way to get pictures to make one: Google picture search!

searched for 'Confessor' and got her pic.
searched for 'Unit' got that g unit pic.
searched for 'Henchman' got the pic.
same for 'Sisyphus' and perhaps most interesting to those wanting to decipher this rumour I found those stiched cuts by searching for 'Wounds'. 

As for HQ and those HTMLs with the 'A' underneath, no idea.
For the HQ I suspect he already had that pic in mind, or he made a really thoroughly search to find something thats not a corporate Headquaters Building picture.


----------



## SilverTabby

Technically GW has already gotten rid of allies and inductees for WH. You can't buy the hardback codex in stores any more, so you have to download the pdf, which has all trace of those rules removed.

So printing a WD dex simply to do what they've already done would be redundant. If I recall correctly, WD dexes and rules have always been optional anyway...


----------



## AlexHolker

Grogbart said:


> As for HQ and those HTMLs with the 'A' underneath, no idea.


The HTMLs and so on is part of this picture, describing the HITS algorithm. (Thanks, Tin Eye!)

In other words, those last two pictures are "Hits" and "Wounds".

The Sisyphus picture might mean "Reroll".


----------



## Katie Drake

SilverTabby said:


> So printing a WD dex simply to do what they've already done would be redundant. If I recall correctly, WD dexes and rules have always been optional anyway...


Except in cases where there are official updates, like back before GW put FAQs on their website or in the cases of entire Codex revisions like the Blood Angels and now the Battle Sisters.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

{HQ} {Unit} {Confessor} {Henchman} {Reroll} {Hits} {Wounds}.


----------



## Doelago

Wait, I have read through the whole thread now, and I feel like declaring myself a heretic and proceed with burning myself to death? What the fuck? :headbutt:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Doelago said:


> What the fuck? :headbutt:


My sentiments exactly


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Technically GW has already gotten rid of allies and inductees for WH. You can't buy the hardback codex in stores any more, so you have to download the pdf, which has all trace of those rules removed.


Not only that, but some events (Throne of Skulls) aren't allowing players to use the old print codex. So this just raises more questions. :/



SilverTabby said:


> So printing a WD dex simply to do what they've already done would be redundant. If I recall correctly, WD dexes and rules have always been optional anyway...


I have a feeling that if it's true, it won't be optional very quickly. Most likely the online dex we have now will be pulled and then tournament play for GW will start requiring it. Not a problem if you have the net dex saved and don't play GW events (like me) but a problem for new players getting in, assuming the new dex is bad.



MadCowCrazy said:


> {HQ} {Unit} {Confessor} {Henchman} {Reroll} {Hits} {Wounds}.


So the Confessor would be like a better version of the the Space Marine Chaplain then? If that's the case this could be pretty good. 

I must say after seeing this latest stunt by Tasty I'm honestly glad I'm not in the rumor gathering business. I've seen it done well, but I've also seen it done poorly online. I think I'll just stick to working on my army, my conversions and putting up less controversial information on my tiny blog. :biggrin: 



Doelago said:


> Wait, I have read through the whole thread now, and I feel like declaring myself a heretic and proceed with burning myself to death? What the fuck?


Don't worry about it too much, Sisters have that effect on the unclean. A nice Promethium bath and you'll be right as rain. :grin:


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

MadCowCrazy said:


> {HQ} {Unit} {Confessor} {Henchman} {Reroll} {Hits} {Wounds}.


What about two wounds?

I think it means: New HQ choice, the Confessor, has 2 wounds, re-roll hits and unlocks henchmen as troops.

OR New HQ choice, the Confessor, re-roll hits and wounds and unlocks henchmen as troops.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It's hard to tell and as I've said it's rather pointless since we wont know until he actually tells us.

It could be re-rolls to wounds, or has 2 wounds, or each wound causes does 2 wounds, it could just as well be Feel no Pain.

The picture of the scars thing is from fake tattoos.


----------



## stenographer

I am curious how much of the WD stop-gap decision was fueled by the model design problems that were mentioned around a year ago. IIRC it was something about posing limitations resulting from exposed hair and robes. Further, I wouldn't be surprised if it is also related to GW's new approach to release publicity. Though it seems counter intuitive to further restrict the amount of development info that reaches the fan base, it should also be noted the amount of publicity WD has gotten in the last couple of days.

The upshot here is that new rules for the army will essentially be beta-tested by the community. If GW intends to release a proper codex for the sisters in the near future (likely after the release of 6e) they will have a healthy body of playtest-data to use in the redesign process.

However, in holding such an optimistic outlook there are few troubling facts that I still can't effectively reconcile. The message that a WD army list sends to the player base that just watched two comparatively old armies get stunning new ranges and exciting rules updates is overwhelmingly negative. Similarly, I agree with the above mentioned 'sleeping dog' opinion. Though the rules are old, C:WH remains pretty solid even in 5e.

I think my real reason for remaining positive here is related to this sleeping dog though. The BoK rumors of a confessor HQ with henchmen etc. suggest that, even though GW's primary objective may be the removal of allies, they intend to add things as well. There may be a reason to wake the dog after all, especially considering there is still reason to believe our new range is on the way, if running a little behind.

This whole ordeal has been a bit of a curve ball. Until recently, the common opinion was that solid, crunchy sisters rumors were not even expected until after the necron release. Though I don't support the policy itself, the fact that the WD list managed to sneak up on us like this makes me think GW's new approach to release-hype might have a trick or two up it's sleeve.

tl;dr - There might be some light at the end of the WD tunnel.


----------



## Shandathe

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an incoming train.


----------



## stenographer

Shandathe said:


> The light at the end of the tunnel may be an incoming train.


It's true. I just think there are enough interesting details here (like the proximity of a 6e release and rumblings of model design snags) that this situation warrants some consideration.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The big question is if we will get any kits with the WD release. Some have been mentioned like the 5 sister box, repentia, penitent engine and priest kit. This would be enough for 90% of the current codex.


----------



## gen.ahab

From what I have heard, the battle sisters aren't ready yet; I doubt we will see any plastic sisters models. I hope we do, I would really like to start on some, but I don't see it happening.

However, if we do, I don't see any point in only releasing 5.... just seems odd to me.


----------



## Vhalyar

Here you go.



TastyTaste said:


> Sorry for the delay real life got in the way for once. Before we get started just want to drop two cents to some comments made in my last post: the only reason I could come off as gloating or soap boxing about rumor vindication is because the instant I post a group of rumors across the Internet on forums elsewhere they are quickly discounted (which is fine), but many times it pretty venomous and my attitude is just a little way of defending myself; by pointing out who was right and who was wrong. So sorry to everyone that just wants rumors and no ego every time I post something, it is only directed at the certain naysayers and shouldn’t be taken as me trying to tell you how awesome I am. I am not always right, but for the most part I am pretty damn close so let us leave it at that.
> 
> Ok, with that said let us get on with why you are really here some SoB rumors.
> 
> As always let us start with the easy ones that pretty much everyone figured was going to happen.
> 
> Allies gone
> Inquisition gone
> Faith streamlined
> USRs updated to 5th
> Cheaper Unit costs
> Inquisition elements gone
> 
> So let start with the big one and perhaps most controversial change to Sisters of Battle: Faith
> 
> I am amazed reading around the Net how quite few people had great guesses on how the new faith works. One caveat about the faith rules: I only have most of the story so let us hope someone else can pluck the rest from the aether. The only thing that really stays the same is only faith producing units can use faith. Gone is the over and under rules based on model count and gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.
> 
> So for instance Repentia Act of Faith allows them to always land an attack even if they are killed before they can swing. They are little bonuses like re-rolling to wound and hit, no USRs. Now this if fine and dandy if you just pop a faith point and bam! power goes off, but not so fast. Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate . This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?
> 
> Random tidbits
> 
> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
> Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
> Karamazov gone
> Priests in, pretty much same as before.
> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters
> 
> Specifics
> 
> Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special Characters
> 
> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.
> 
> Confessor: Takes the slot of the old Inquisitors. Cheap HQ (Warboss). Can create a henchman band using most of the henchman found in the GK codex. What makes the Confessor extra deadly is the ability for it to re-roll hits and wounds for her and the squad. This is the translation of the rumor matrix. So think for one second about her and the Death Cult together?
> 
> Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports
> 
> Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.
> 
> Exocists: Pretty much same as before.
> 
> This is it for now gents and dames. If you have any questions let me know I can see if can get them answered sometime this week with another post.


----------



## Azezel

> gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.













Err, moving on.



> Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate . This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?


Sounds similar to Fantasy's Magic rules... Could be good or bad. 5+ on one die is very rough.

Random tidbits



> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save


The hell? Permenantly? One one hand, that means we can pretty much kiss Spirit of the Martyr goodbye - on the other hand, everybody will be rolling their eyes and calling us cheesy. Not good on any hand.



> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
> Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
> Karamazov gone
> Priests in, pretty much same as before.
> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters


That all sounds good. I hope BoK is right about the nixing of =][= nonsense.



> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.


No idea how thawn works, but that sounds like an increase in CC and a nerf everywhere else.



> Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports


If that's it, then still too expensive for a unit that will never make it across the table.



> Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, didn't you say one AoF per unit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exocists: Pretty much same as before.
> 
> 
> 
> Genuine surprise - I fully expect a nerf or increase in cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Katie Drake

Very interesting, I like a lot of these rumors and I hope very much that the Immolator has a transport capacity of 10... that would be sweet.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> If that's it, then still too expensive for a unit that will never make it across the table.


I think you are being to hard, first even if they don't have a transport you can probably lend them one. Sort of like Mephiston. Also even if they can't they still have feel no pain. So by using cover, you get a 4+ followed by another 4+.


----------



## stenographer

Azezel said:


> Wait, didn't you say one AoF per unit?


I interpreted it as specific powers being restricted to specific units but they could be be provided more than one.

Like so:
Battle Sisters have powers A and B
Repentia have power C
Seraphim have powers A and D

This could allow for a larger number of powers and more specialized powers without feeling clunky. I like it. Also, the faith pool as described would suggest, to me at least, that you could essentially ante faith points for dice to throw on an attempt to activate the power. "Having faith" being represented by anteing fewer points. If true you can probably only make one attempt per unit per phase.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea how thawn works, but that sounds like an increase in CC and a nerf everywhere else.
Click to expand...

The GK dude comes back on a roll of 4+, if you fail you can retry next turn.


----------



## rasolyo

Vhalyar said:


> Here you go.


Welp, so much for my metal ISTs.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Big question now is what AoF will be available.

I would expect Celestians and Seraphim to get one that makes them good in CC, probably the +2S and +2I slapped into a single AoF with no negative side effects.

Divine Guidance for Retributors seem pretty obvious.

Battle Sisters and Dominions I'm not sure what I would give, the relentless rule?

ICs could probably be able to use most of the new AoF and benefit the whole group with it.


----------



## Shandathe

Well, I already guessed most of those changes as obvious, so... *shrugs* I'm willing to believe most of this? Or at least, not doubt as much as I normally would.

As for Celestine, that's actually pretty much the way she's now, though with improved WS/BS (... though I don't think she actually has any way to USE BS, so if that's actually cuonted in the point cost it seems silly). No mention of special rules, which she presumably does have... 

I mean, we're technically still not sure she didn't survive a point-blank nuking. Eternal Warrior is a gimme 

If she returns on 4+, that's a slight nerf, but apparently a slight drop in (base) cost as well. We'll see.


----------



## SlamHammer

stenographer said:


> I interpreted it as specific powers being restricted to specific units but they could be be provided more than one.
> 
> Like so:
> Battle Sisters have powers A and B
> Repentia have power C
> Seraphim have powers A and D
> 
> This could allow for a larger number of powers and more specialized powers without feeling clunky. I like it. Also, the faith pool as described would suggest, to me at least, that you could essentially ante faith points for dice to throw on an attempt to activate the power. "Having faith" being represented by anteing fewer points. If true you can probably only make one attempt per unit per phase.


Very much like Grey Knights. Each units have a specific power associated with them.


----------



## Necrosis

So if A canoness joins a squad, will the squad now roll 2d6 for faith? (1d6 for the squad and 1d6 for the canoness)


----------



## Dawnstar

Necrosis said:


> So if A canoness joins a squad, will the squad now roll 2d6 for faith? (1d6 for the squad and 1d6 for the canoness)


I would have thought something like that would have been 1 faith test for the squad, and the results apply to the entire squad


----------



## Necrosis

Dawnstar said:


> I would have thought something like that would have been 1 faith test for the squad, and the results apply to the entire squad


I was talking about generating faith.


----------



## Shandathe

Meh, best to wait for the WD in question for the specifics, I think. Speculating's all well and good, but there's a point where it becomes useless and likely to lead to disappointment.

Well, more disappointment.


----------



## Zion

I took some time to reread this a few times and gather my thoughts and felt it was best to address them directly at each portion they came up. I'm going to go ahead and reply as if each of these bits of information where 100% correct, so no niggling over the possibilities of things, just straight up addressing the rumors as presented. So here goes:



> Originally Posted by TastyTaste
> Sorry for the delay real life got in the way for once. Before we get started just want to drop two cents to some comments made in my last post: the only reason I could come off as gloating or soap boxing about rumor vindication is because the instant I post a group of rumors across the Internet on forums elsewhere they are quickly discounted (which is fine), but many times it pretty venomous and my attitude is just a little way of defending myself; by pointing out who was right and who was wrong. So sorry to everyone that just wants rumors and no ego every time I post something, it is only directed at the certain naysayers and shouldn’t be taken as me trying to tell you how awesome I am. I am not always right, but for the most part I am pretty damn close so let us leave it at that.


Not really related to the thread or the rest of this post, but I feel he'd get less flack if he cut the attitude especially when he's right. Just sayin'.



> Ok, with that said let us get on with why you are really here some SoB rumors.


Only about 36 hours from the initial post promising more news. Definitely not how to win friends or fans online.



> As always let us start with the easy ones that pretty much everyone figured was going to happen.
> 
> Allies gone
> Inquisition gone
> Faith streamlined
> USRs updated to 5th
> Cheaper Unit costs
> Inquisition elements gone


No surprises there. Though I hope we keep some of what makes our army special instead of losing it to USRs [the ability to ignore Psychic Powers targeted at Sororitsa Units being a big one though would be sad to lose, especilly with no Psychic Hoods available since we don't have Psykers].



> So let start with the big one and perhaps most controversial change to Sisters of Battle: Faith
> 
> I am amazed reading around the Net how quite few people had great guesses on how the new faith works. One caveat about the faith rules: I only have most of the story so let us hope someone else can pluck the rest from the aether. The only thing that really stays the same is only faith producing units can use faith. Gone is the over and under rules based on model count and gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.


Okay, first the good. Faith isn't getting overhauled too much and that means it won't end up being exactly like psychic powers, and it might get easier to remember how to use the powers. And the bad being that gone is the list of abilities that could really help out during the game [3++ invul saves anyone?] and instead we get a power or two to aid the unit. I don't know how to really feel about that since it means more to keep track of in terms of who has what.



> So for instance Repentia Act of Faith allows them to always land an attack even if they are killed before they can swing.


If that's true, that'd be pretty awesome.



> They are little bonuses like re-rolling to wound and hit, no USRs. Now this if fine and dandy if you just pop a faith point and bam! power goes off, but not so fast. Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate .


Not just granting generic USRs is good. 5+ is bad. 2/6 chance of success isn't good. A 4+ would be better unless these are some real game changing powers we're talking about.



> This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?


Those aren't the only questions I've got. Are Imagefiers being carried over into the new codex? Will they continue to aid in our faith tests? Will there be characters or upgrades that let you get Faith off on a 4+ or a 3+ or perhaps give you extra free dice to roll each time you test or more dice per squad? 

Additionally I rather miss the idea of an army-wide faith pool and Martyrdom. I just feel it represents them better, but who knows, I may be swayed differently when the new stuff hits in a couple months. That put the pressure on the Sister's list to use the points wisely and kept it balanced. I'm curious to see how this will play out in terms of us being seen as the new cheese-dex.



> Random tidbits
> 
> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save


That's worse than Daemons but better than nothing. I wonder if this can be improved. And will Superiors still have the ability to take Rosarius? 



> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos


Does this mean a squad size increase for the number of models that ride in an Immolator or the inclusion of a Combat Squad type of rule? Will the Immolater get to keep it's 12" move and fire? Will it stay twin-linked or go back to firing two heavy flamer templates like it did in 2nd edition(I don't think it's likely but I do think it's worth addressing)?



> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)


Personally I don't feel any loss here since I don't use assassins. They're just too cost heavy and don't contribute faith points for my list.



> Wargear with the same names as GK war gear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)


Wait, does this mean the Confessor will function as a kind of Inquisitor who can take them? Or will they become more widely available throughout the army?



> Karamazov gone


No surprises there. He is both an Inquisitor and in the Grey Knights codex.



> Priests in, pretty much same as before.


I see a points drop to make them more useful and maybe a couple small tweaks personally but no real surprise either. They're not too bad as is. I just hope they don't stay a requirement to field certain parts of the codex.



> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters


Good to hear, and not really a surprise. Changing that would probably cause a lynch mob to storm GW headquarters.




> Specifics
> 
> Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special Characters


More HQs is good (I hope).



> St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.


Why does she need a BS upgrade? Unless she's getting a new ability or weapon to let her shoot I don't see the need for it. The rising back from the table itself instead of coming back on from reserves I feel is much more in line with her fluff, so that's good. Does the Power Weapon count as poisoned for determining wounds so that if it were to wound on say, 3s it would get rerolls? Is she keeping her Hit and Run?



> Confessor: Takes the slot of the old Inquisitors. Cheap HQ (Warboss). Can create a henchman band using most of the henchman found in the GK codex. What makes the Confessor extra deadly is the ability for it to re-roll hits and wounds for her and the squad. This is the translation of the rumor matrix. So think for one second about her and the Death Cult together?


So she's an Super Chaplain that doubles as Inquisitor? This could end up being kind of cool I guess. Is she faithful or not though?



> Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports


The lack of the ability to take a vehicle stinks, I would rather hope they get to Scout Marine points costs over Tactical Marines. Rage isn't as good as Holy Rage was and makes them less predictable than before (since you could occasionally not suffer from Holy Rage and when you did end up with it you got an extra D6" movement in the movement phase). They really need to be fleet though. There isn't an excuse to restrict a unit from embarking on a transport, not giving them an armor save and NOT giving them fleet. Move Through Cover would also be nice, but that's probably pushing it a little I guess.



> Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.


I don't see this working unless Immolators get a transport upgrade, Sisters get a variant of Combat Squads, or there is some bad information here. 

As for Multiple acts of Faith, perhaps there is a short list they have access to [Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr for examples] that they can use?



> Exocists: Pretty much same as before.


Seeing as if they changed this GW would have a riot on their hands since it's one of the best tanks in the game without being too overpowered (the Heavy 1D6 acts as a nice balancing point because you average 3.3 shots per round of firing, don't get templates which means you average only 3 kills, and without the melta rule you have to do more firing to penetrate most vehicles anyways). I see a points shift, and the inclusion of at least smoke launchers and searchlights for free. Maybe even a storm bolter if they're feeling nice.



> This is it for now gents and dames. If you have any questions let me know I can see if can get them answered sometime this week with another post.


Yeah, can we have the next update in a more reasonable manner please? News posts to announce news is silly, aggravating and a great way to lose readers.

--

Alright, no more response stuffs on the specifics and more of a general wrap-up now.

I think this is going to end up being interesting to see and if GW ends up with a lot of positive feedback from this it'll probably end up being carried over to the next real codex. If that's what they plan to do more often as a whole I'm open to see more White Dwarf codices since that could lead to a lot of strong books with lots of good options that don't feel mandatory to play.

On the other hand (to play my own Devil's Advocate here) if this ends up being some kind of long term bandage that doesn't really fix any of our short comings (namely survivability up close since things we like to get CLOSE to our targets when we start purging. I'd like to see some kind of way to let us hit T4 and 5 critters more often and actually do wounds more regularly. After playing two games against Space Marines (one Vanilla and one Space Wolves today(who actually kept running AWAY from parts of my Sister's army instead of charging me and wiping my squads in close combat...it was surreal)) I feel that's one of the things that hurts the effectiveness of the army the most. 

Don't get me wrong, 3+ saves are nice but when bolters are wounding you on 3s and you can't bring enough bodies to mitigate the effects (Guard), or enough stuff that can either outshoot or outfight (Eldar..and maybe Tau on the shooting with a decent shooting list and a good player) you end up not really being able to survive for long once your units take too many casualties (or gets stuck in combat) from what I've seen. But that might be just me and the fact that I got crushed by a bike/drop pod list in a Spearhead deployment game today (he got first turn and locked me in that corner and I wasn't able to shoot my way out of there in the least before he started crumpling my transports and troops inside).

The Book of Saint Lucius needs to stay in the codex though. Don't even change the points cost. It's perfect as is. So is seeing the look on my opponent's face when they find out how it works ("You want to see my army list before the game starts?" "Nah, it's cool" *LATER* "Wait...how does that work?" *explanation* "Let me see the FAQ on that........You have this in all of your squads?!?" "Yes. :biggrin:" ). It won't be a deal breaker for me if it doesn't but it's one of our strengths, especially when dealing with bikes and units with jump packs.

This little bit of information has definitely piqued my curiosity to see more and where the new stuff will take the Sisters, but at the same time some of the changes have me a little worried that they'll end up getting bogged down with annoying special rules that almost require a checklist to keep track of (granted the current Faith Powers can be like that at times, especially when your opponent isn't used to you doing things on their turn but it's manageable). Hopefully we start to see a little more information as we get closer and maybe even some info on what's really going to happen to the Sisters on a whole (namely when we're getting new models *couchPlasticExorcistscough*), and were GW is at on with producing the full codex for us. I'm hoping for a Warriors of Chaos timeline that gets us one by next March but we all know we could end up being the next Blood Angels dex too. :/

EDIT: Sweet Jimminy Christmas this post is long! For the TL;DR crowd: "Ooo shiny! Oh that looks confusing. I wish that was clearer. And I've got my fingers crossed." So business as usual.


----------



## Shandathe

... wait, you don't consider Priests as being bad?

"Must Assault" and "Always counts as moving" kinda utterly suck for an army that's not designed for CC and rather likes being able to fire bolters beyond 12". The only logical place to stick him is with a Repentia squad, but nobody ever fields one... Which leaves Celestians as the unit he can screw over the least. 

Seriously, the only reason to bring one is that you want to have Arco-Flagellants (exceedingly rare occasions) or Penitent Engines (highly overpriced but sorta usable). If you've found a way to make a Priest a useful addition - instead of a paid-for liability - I'd love to hear about it.


----------



## AlexHolker

Giving Repentia Rage pushes them in exactly the wrong direction, IMO. I wanted them to be _heroic_, not Leeroy Jenkins.


----------



## Shandathe

I agree, but remember they're already GOT Rage... well, not fully, but until someone's kind enough to shoot at them and you can nominate the Mistress as the first to die, Repentia are pretty close to uncontrollable as it is.


----------



## Synack

One thing we can take from this, is that this WD update is looking like it isn't just a "fix", looks like it'll give them a decent update.


----------



## Synack

I wonder if 2 SoB count as 1 for transport purposes, cause they so small. Kind like how termies count as 2.

Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Necrosis

Synack said:


> I wonder if 2 SoB count as 1 for transport purposes, cause they so small. Kind like how termies count as 2.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


No, cause guardsmen are smaller and they still count as 1.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Necrosis said:


> No, cause guardsmen are smaller and they still count as 1.


But guardsmen dont ride rhinos or immolators


----------



## Grogbart

Synack said:


> I wonder if 2 SoB count as 1 for transport purposes, cause they so small. Kind like how termies count as 2.


Two to one is a bit exaggerated comparing SM to SoB or IG, but still a good point. If you can cram 10 Marines into a Rhino, it should be possible to fit 12-15 Sisters as well. Would be nice to have a basic mechanised squad, which could be joined by an IC.

And two points of wonderment:
no Repressors?
no Fleet for Repentia?


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> ... wait, you don't consider Priests as being bad?
> 
> "Must Assault" and "Always counts as moving" kinda utterly suck for an army that's not designed for CC and rather likes being able to fire bolters beyond 12". The only logical place to stick him is with a Repentia squad, but nobody ever fields one... Which leaves Celestians as the unit he can screw over the least.
> 
> Seriously, the only reason to bring one is that you want to have Arco-Flagellants (exceedingly rare occasions) or Penitent Engines (highly overpriced but sorta usable). If you've found a way to make a Priest a useful addition - instead of a paid-for liability - I'd love to hear about it.


Repentia are the only place I've seen to put him as well, but depending how/if they tweak him they might end up being better. Celestians, Dominions and Retributors are the only squads I know of that have room in their transports for the Priests, but they aren't served well there. So yeah, Repentia is about it. 

I obviously was being too nice about the Priest as a whole, but without scrapping him I don't see much use for him outside of being a cheap Chaplain wannabe.



MadCowCrazy said:


> But guardsmen dont ride rhinos or immolators


And if they did it'd have to count as open topped since they don't wear Power Armor.


----------



## TheSpore

My priest used to run around with power armour, Plasma Pistol, and a power weapon... (its was just funny when people had to face him.)

I also used to always max out the arcos and take three exos. This was such a deadly combination but now im feeling I have wasted money on my 18 arcos... since they seem to be given away to the GKs and they got totally nerfed oevr there by taking away all the things that made them awesome.

I love the sisters army it was always fun and quite challegning to play and yielded a different kind of game most the time.


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## Zion

TheSpore said:


> My priest used to run around with power armour, Plasma Pistol, and a power weapon... (its was just funny when people had to face him.)
> 
> I also used to always max out the arcos and take three exos. This was such a deadly combination but now im feeling I have wasted money on my 18 arcos... since they seem to be given away to the GKs and they got totally nerfed oevr there by taking away all the things that made them awesome.
> 
> I love the sisters army it was always fun and quite challegning to play and yielded a different kind of game most the time.


That actually gives me an idea. Normal Sisters have Bolters, and when you Rapid Fire you can't assault. So potentially a Priest could be a decent way to buff your Celestine squads as long as you keep one Boltgun wielding Celestine alive.

Risky, but potentially a good way to help them in close combat when they get drug into it with the rerolls and hitting (most things) on 3s.


----------



## Shandathe

That'd only work if the Priest's presence and his rule that you must charge overrides the fact that you're not allowed to. No, when I said Priests *utterly suck* I meant it, and if anything, I was being friendly. Guess what's in the Witch Hunters FAQ?



> Q. How does Righteous Fury work with rapid fire weapons?
> A. The rules for Priests state that the unit always counts as moving, and must always charge. To clarify, this rule effectively means that units with an attached Priest may never fire a rapid fire weapon if they are within charge range of an enemy, as to do so would preclude them from charging. If there are no enemies within charge range, they can still fire at targets up to 12" away, but not beyond, as they always count as moving.


EDIT: If that doesn't clarify my feelings, at 40 points the Priest's only role appears to be to SCREW YOUR ARMY OVER.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> That'd only work if the Priest's presence and his rule that you must charge overrides the fact that you're not allowed to. No, when I said Priests *utterly suck* I meant it, and if anything, I was being friendly. Guess what's in the Witch Hunters FAQ?
> 
> 
> 
> Some Twit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Q. How does Righteous Fury work with rapid fire weapons?
> A. The rules for Priests state that the unit always counts as moving, and must always charge. To clarify, this rule effectively means that units with an attached Priest may never fire a rapid fire weapon if they are within charge range of an enemy, as to do so would preclude them from charging. If there are no enemies within charge range, they can still fire at targets up to 12" away, but not beyond, as they always count as moving.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: If that doesn't clarify my feelings, at 40 points the Priest's only role appears to be to SCREW YOUR ARMY OVER.
Click to expand...

Wow. Never paid any attention to that and now that I've seen that I can say that is not only a horrible ruling on anything but is the worst ruling I've seen in a FAQ to date. It completely negates the purpose to take a Priest [strong assault or decent counter assault since rerolls increase your odds of hitting tremendously] and completely negates any reason to take a Priest in many of the units [namely anything that can and does shoot in order to not die]. Whomever decided that was a good idea was...well a moron. I think most of us could have lived with the 12" rapid fire only since you're usually close enough to shoot with flamers and/or meltas anyways so you'd still get to fire, but to completely take it away....

Yeah, I can't see that staying the way it is. It takes a decent upgrade option and makes it...almost completely useless.

So yeah...Repentia and that's it since our Arco Flagellants are "Dangerous to Know" and you can't attach one to a Pentinent Engine Formation. And since you can't take a Priest by itself that means you can't have a lone Priest running up behind the Arcos to help them out.

Honestly that FAQ just blew my mind. Someone deserves to be smacked for that.


----------



## TheSpore

Look by attaching a priest to a celestian squad your not nerfing them.

Celestians are meant to get in close and shoot the ever livin piss out of something. If you just keep the outside the charge range you unload on the target. They will most likely never get the chance to fir e at 24" simply because you wanna mount these chicks in a rhino and go. With a pirest if they wind having to charge its not a big dealy Celestians can hold really well in CC and the faith points options can make these chicks really nasty. The priest can just add to the nastiness.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> Look by attaching a priest to a celestian squad your not nerfing them.
> 
> Celestians are meant to get in close and shoot the ever livin piss out of something. If you just keep the outside the charge range you unload on the target. They will most likely never get the chance to fir e at 24" simply because you wanna mount these chicks in a rhino and go. With a pirest if they wind having to charge its not a big dealy Celestians can hold really well in CC and the faith points options can make these chicks really nasty. The priest can just add to the nastiness.


That's a lot of ifs to base that around. Yes I'm sure Celestines can survive being forced to charge like that, but when you like to run them in Immolators and kitted out to try and bring as much pain as possible with your tiny units, a Priest making them plunge headfirst into combat isn't really a good thing. 

Thinking of kitting things out, I do hope that Veteran Superiors will have access to the Inferno Pistol. Being able to bring extra melta into a fight [even if it's just to deal more wounds, or cause instant death from time to time] is always nice.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> That's a lot of ifs to base that around. Yes I'm sure Celestines can survive being forced to charge like that, but when you like to run them in Immolators and kitted out to try and bring as much pain as possible with your tiny units, a Priest making them plunge headfirst into combat isn't really a good thing.
> 
> Thinking of kitting things out, I do hope that Veteran Superiors will have access to the Inferno Pistol. Being able to bring extra melta into a fight [even if it's just to deal more wounds, or cause instant death from time to time] is always nice.


Let me say I use to run the sisters 

I always took a cannoness with PP, PW, Rosairius, and Cloak of St. Aspiria
Max the arcos or 2 full arco units and a callidus(the callidus I always felt was just the better of the 4) 

I would use celestians as the bodygaurds for the cannoness(i think you could buy the back then as bodyagurd if not I would just drop the calli or one of the Arcos to get them) mount them all in a rhino.

the 2 10 woman sisters sqauds with bolt guns and 2 storm bolters along with just the plain old vet. upgarde just to get the faith poin.

For my fast it was always a toss up between two to three dominions or seraphims (depends on how I feel at the time) the dominions would always have 10 to a sqaud and 4 melta in a rhino. If serphims not weapons upgrades but I would bring a vet with at least a PW and field them in 10s as well.

Finally 3 Exos with Ex. Armour. these three units were about 420 pts. 

I just never cared much for Immolators. It limits your unit sizes too much. Retributors though have some nice fire power are cool but nothing that can match up to the use of 3 exos.IMO oh yeah I would include the pirest I mentioned earlier.

With this setup I could easily take on a any army including a Horde army. I almost never use flamers. To me the flamer does nothin but hamper you down. I can score more hits and wound with bolters than with flamers and the faith iptions make this army deadly.

Also for a tactic. I never ever split my fire with the exos. I always focused them on the top threats.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> Let me say I use to run the sisters
> 
> I always took a cannoness with PP, PW, Rosairius, and Cloak of St. Aspiria
> Max the arcos or 2 full arco units and a callidus(the callidus I always felt was just the better of the 4)
> 
> I would use celestians as the bodygaurds for the cannoness(i think you could buy the back then as bodyagurd if not I would just drop the calli or one of the Arcos to get them) mount them all in a rhino.
> 
> the 2 10 woman sisters sqauds with bolt guns and 2 storm bolters along with just the plain old vet. upgarde just to get the faith poin.
> 
> For my fast it was always a toss up between two to three dominions or seraphims (depends on how I feel at the time) the dominions would always have 10 to a sqaud and 4 melta in a rhino. If serphims not weapons upgrades but I would bring a vet with at least a PW and field them in 10s as well.
> 
> Finally 3 Exos with Ex. Armour. these three units were about 420 pts.
> 
> I just never cared much for Immolators. It limits your unit sizes too much. Retributors though have some nice fire power are cool but nothing that can match up to the use of 3 exos.IMO oh yeah I would include the pirest I mentioned earlier.
> 
> With this setup I could easily take on a any army including a Horde army. I almost never use flamers. To me the flamer does nothin but hamper you down. I can score more hits and wound with bolters than with flamers and the faith iptions make this army deadly.
> 
> Also for a tactic. I never ever split my fire with the exos. I always focused them on the top threats.


Most of that looks all fine and dandy save for the Assassin. Where is your mandatory Inquisitor you have to field to take it?


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> Most of that looks all fine and dandy save for the Assassin. Where is your mandatory Inquisitor you have to field to take it?


Must hav forgotten about that its been a long time since I ran the sisters. though after the new WD I will be pulling these lovely ladies out and dutin them off and begin the repainting process of them.

Just thought i would share how I use to run them because I always felt it was a more unconventional way.


----------



## Shandathe

Ooookay, I can't believe it's necessary, but let me add a couple arguments to the case for Priests utterly sucking... This time specifically attached to Celestians. 

1. Your bolter range is halved because they're always moving. Then halved again because 6" is charge range, leaving you only able to fire bolters at 6" to 12". Please note you're not allowed to measure how far from an enemy you are until you're actually firing on him, so in actuality assume 7" to 11" for a safety margin. Which brings me to

2. If you're planning to use your Bolters at well, (Heavy) Flamers are near the edge of their range, and you can't use them to full effect. You can fire these (and Meltaguns) from within 6" before you get into CC however, as they're Assault weapons.

3. Speaking of assaulting, remember you still need to pay for those Frag Grenades.

4. Because you count as moving, kiss the Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta options goodbye. 

5. No matter how you slice it, short of Hand of the Emperor (with it's accompanying Initiative 1), you're still going to be Strength 3. As only the Superior can have a pistol and CCW, they all also only have one base attack. Yes, they get an additional one for charging, but many armies are going to laugh at you simply because while you'll get a decent number of hits, you're not going to do great on Wounding.

6. The Passion and Spirit of the Martyr, which you may well need depending on what you're charging into, are made harder by the Priest's presence.


----------



## SilverTabby

A few things: 

The 'opentopped if not in power armour' rule no longer exists in 5ed. 

If you bear in mind that the Grey Knight codex is the 6th ed template, it isn't surprising at all that faith would take the suggested route of one per squad, with characters having access to a suite that the squad will also benefit from if joined by said character. To be honest, this approach would please me. I've been playing Sisters since they got their first codex, and I've found this editions Faith method to be clunky and awkward to remember, and in places unclear. I like specific units having specific rules, it helps define their role rather than everything being able to do everything in a subpar way. 

Priests - never really used them. But then, I only really take characters because I have to. Sisters characters can't hold their own against most other tooled-up HQs, so I don't waste points trying. The addition of a Confessor who might actually be good in CC would potentially change my stance there.

Still not going to judge anything on rumours though, no matter how plausible-sounding. All my previous comments on info getting out of the Studio are still true.


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> Ooookay, I can't believe it's necessary, but let me add a couple arguments to the case for Priests utterly sucking... This time specifically attached to Celestians.
> 
> 1. Your bolter range is halved because they're always moving. Then halved again because 6" is charge range, leaving you only able to fire bolters at 6" to 12". Please note you're not allowed to measure how far from an enemy you are until you're actually firing on him, so in actuality assume 7" to 11" for a safety margin. Which brings me to
> 
> K I'm just saying the preist can hamper them down yes but it still stands to this . Celestians are capable shootin the hell out of something. If you main focus is using that 24 " single bolt gun shot then no don't place that priest in there... Though I have found it more effecive to get in close and let er rip. also remeber disembarking form a rhino prevents you for performing a charge thus you now can rapid fire allowing you next turn to rembark and gettin out of the way so that another unit can finish them off.
> 
> 2. If you're planning to use your Bolters at well, (Heavy) Flamers are near the edge of their range, and you can't use them to full effect. You can fire these (and Meltaguns) from within 6" before you get into CC however, as they're Assault weapons.
> 
> The only thing the flamer is ever good at is swarms and cover. Ok so if they get a cover save whatever they are still (most the time) gonna have to roll 3s. Look at this way if you need that priest somewhere its a much better place for him than in a celestian squad with the cannoness.
> 
> 3. Speaking of assaulting, remember you still need to pay for those Frag Grenades.
> 
> never pay for em... You may find that ill advised but keep in mind, I'm not focused on charging Im focused on shootin and you can easily before your shooting phase be able to estimate their distance to away. remember to you just need the bolters to be within the range. As long as you stay at least 7 or 8 " aways you can fire like mad at them.
> 
> 4. Because you count as moving, kiss the Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta options goodbye.
> 
> Why would you bring those to celestian or any squad for that fact. Sisters are a mobile force with mostly med. range weaponry. HB and MM still have to get into range therefore in many cases you will be foregoing at least a couple turns without shooting them . Also if you reall really need the melta that is why you have the dominions they can bring 4 meltas and have a Immoltor or Rhino (your choice) In order for the SoBs to work you have to be able to move and shoot Heavy weapons just bog down your mobility which is the ony way to survive with the SoBs.
> 
> 5. No matter how you slice it, short of Hand of the Emperor (with it's accompanying Initiative 1), you're still going to be Strength 3. As only the Superior can have a pistol and CCW, they all also only have one base attack. Yes, they get an additional one for charging, but many armies are going to laugh at you simply because while you'll get a decent number of hits, you're not going to do great on Wounding.
> 
> I never said they would live. I did however say they can hit hard take many with them on their way out the door. S 3 isn't that big of a deal considering the number of attacks you get on a charge. Look at daemonettes, sure they have the rending ability but typically they don't roll too many 6s but they get so many strikes to roll on and well remember one gaurdsman w las gun don;t do didley, gaurdsman unit full streghnth thats a whole lotta didley.
> 
> 6. The Passion and Spirit of the Martyr, which you may well need depending on what you're charging into, are made harder by the Priest's presence.
> 
> how so the faith only goes how many sisters are in the unit the priest just doesn't count


Im not attacking you Im just tring to explain a different way of lookin at it


----------



## andrewm9

> I never said they would live. I did however say they can hit hard take many with them on their way out the door. S 3 isn't that big of a deal considering the number of attacks you get on a charge. Look at daemonettes, sure they have the rending ability but typically they don't roll too many 6s but they get so many strikes to roll on and well remember one gaurdsman w las gun don;t do didley, gaurdsman unit full streghnth thats a whole lotta didley.




Daemonettes have 4 attacks on the charge and are initiative 6 whereas Battlesisters and all their similar untis have 1 base attack (even Seraphim and Celestians) and will be initiative 3 or 4 even (at least in the current incarnation). Their number of attacks will never be high so at most you may get 30 attacks from a expesnive 10 Seraphim on the charge. Unless you get lucky you don't do a lot of damage to T 4 models. The only real beefy hth units in the codex are the Canoness and St Celestine.

Dominions as they stand now cost a ridiculous amount of points to field that many special weapons. 5 Dominions with 4 meltas, a veteran, and a rhino cost almost 180 points. They are not very cost effective IMO.


----------



## TheSpore

andrewm9 said:


> Daemonettes have 4 attacks on the charge and are initiative 6 whereas Battlesisters and all their similar untis have 1 base attack (even Seraphim and Celestians) and will be initiative 3 or 4 even (at least in the current incarnation). Their number of attacks will never be high so at most you may get 30 attacks from a expesnive 10 Seraphim on the charge. Unless you get lucky you don't do a lot of damage to T 4 models. The only real beefy hth units in the codex are the Canoness and St Celestine.
> 
> I used the daemonettes as a small example at how a unit can be effective and still have a S of 3. Tis true you won't get no where near as many attacks with them, but they hav holy hatred which will allow you to score more hits than a standard WS 4 SM lokced with anything a 4 or higher. He is still rolin 4s you roll 3s... Yes you will need 5s to wound most the time. Celestians Im saying again can benefit from a priest. The fanatical rule only improves on their CC ability by allowing failed re-rolse in the hits department. As I said THE FOUCUS IS NOT TO LOCK INTO CC but they can survive and hit hard if the need should arise.
> 
> Dominions as they stand now cost a ridiculous amount of points to field that many special weapons. 5 Dominions with 4 meltas, a veteran, and a rhino cost almost 180 points. They are not very cost effective IMO.


Oh well its all up to you what you wanna field. You can try seraphims but they can be pricey if not more pricey... To field a good list you have to put in the points and not be afraid to spend them. You ust find where you can cut corners and see what is needed and what isnt needed. For exaple I may spend the points to get the Vet. for the faith pool, but im not giving here anything special she just has a cool new title. I may even forego the vets in other squads as well dpending on how mow I have already in my pool. Sure take the Exos but maybe skip on a few upgrades. It all depends on how you are gonna manage it and how you wnat them to play.


----------



## Shandathe

Between people that have actually thought about it, different views are good  Unless people start attacking each other, discussing things means both parties can walk away with a better understanding in the end.

Anyway, overall the Priest utterly kills your shooting except for special circumstances (ie. disembarking). Losing the single long-range bolter shot does hurt. Once your transport gets broken, it may well be a good option to take the single shot instead of legging it forward and taking an additional turn of fire or having to approach CC troops. 

While it depends on playstyle a bit, Flamers, especially Heavy ones are wonderful toys when you get up close. With enemy models being within 2" of each other to maintain coherency, you should be able to position the model with flamer to get at least 4 hits with one (and no need to roll for them). Works on Space Marines just well as it does on swarms  A better result than a Bolter can give you (though the bolter obviously does have the better range). 

The Priest's only real contribution is to CC and he's pressing the squad to that, so you'd need the frag grenades if you ever want to take advantage of him (will probably get those for free with the update).

The HB and MM on the Celestian squad are the cheapest way to get your hands on either of those in the Codex - Retributors and Immolators pay far, far more - and those guns have a pretty good range. 

Celestians can't really hit hard in CC. You'll get a good number of attacks the first turn (22 if you maxed the unit size for a Rhino and they're all still alive), most of which will hit. But that's only an average 11 wounds against T3, or 7 against 4), and just about every unit will be able to apply it's Armour save to reduce casualties to below even that. That's assuming I4 is enough to go at least simultaneously  It works for mopping up, but shooting's always the better choice. Andrew already made the point somewhat beyond that.

The Priest actually counts toward unit size (Note, he's the single exception in the Codex that's not Faithful, can be attached and still allow the squad to use Acts of Faith AT ALL).


----------



## TheSpore

Well like I said all in how you wanna run them. IMO if you take reg. gbattel sisters to help back up the celestians then the celestians can do some double tappin and the the back orw of battle sisters can sweep up the rest.

Yo make valid points just with the way I ran the SoBs it just wored form me thats all.


----------



## SilverTabby

The benefit of giving Celestians Heavy Weapons in this edition is that they don't replace the standard Bolter. Virtually no option you take for any squad will replace the standard Bolter, which means even if you have to move your Retributors they can still shoot the boltguns tucked under their skirts. I personally find small squads of 5 Celestians with a MM or HB tucked in it is a very versatile little unit, and doesn't require a Vet to be Faithful. 

However, you can guarantee any update will address this abuse. Similarly, at present you can keep going through the full list of Acts until one sticks, no need to declare beforehand. 

I will welcome any tidying up of the Faith system. I do wonder though - with the suggested changes, will all Sororitas units be automatically Faithful, rather than requiring a Vet Sister? Because the price reduction implied by that change could be a good reason why the Acts could be harder to pull off.


----------



## Zion

Breaking out the multi-quotes to get caught up!



SilverTabby said:


> The 'opentopped if not in power armour' rule no longer exists in 5ed.


It's still mentioned in a few codices though, which is why I brought it up in the first place. 



SilverTabby said:


> I will welcome any tidying up of the Faith system. I do wonder though - with the suggested changes, will all Sororitas units be automatically Faithful, rather than requiring a Vet Sister? Because the price reduction implied by that change could be a good reason why the Acts could be harder to pull off.


I do hope that the Sororitas will be faithful. That's a defining characteristic of their fluff that separates them from normal humans (Guard for example).

I wouldn't mind if the Battle Sisters came faithful with the Superior and then a Veteran Superior upgrade that had more wargear accessible (or grant a bonus to her squad) to her than the normal Superior, along with a stat line to represent her experience (perhaps she can use a second faith power in addition to the squads own, or makes the Squad stubborn, or something useful). But there I go being hopeful again.

Can you tell I spend too much time thinking about this stuff?


----------



## Zion

Double post with expanded rumors! Some of this we've already seen from Blood of Kittens but there are a few more tidbits here.

*SOURCE*



Jared van Kell said:


> Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.
> 
> Basic Composition
> 
> The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
> Assasins are gone.
> All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
> Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.
> 
> Acts of Faith
> 
> Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
> Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
> Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
> Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.
> 
> Units
> 
> Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.
> 
> Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.
> 
> St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.
> 
> Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.
> 
> Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
> Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.
> 
> Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
> may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.
> 
> Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.
> 
> Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.


I like the clarification on some of this stuff [Repressors!].


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Although I find some of these rumors a bit unnerving...



> Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate


 [:shok: Those better be some mind blowing Acts of Faith to have such a high fail rate. Granted, when I started playing my SoB army I kept forgetting to use Acts of Faith and still scraped a few ties.]



> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save


 [With the added AoF that upgrades it to 3++, right? Right?]



> St. Celestine... you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+...


 [No more Hit-n-Run? Will she get a Bolter besides the Ardent Blade? If so, I chose a bad time to do the conversion I did to mine...]

... it doesn't sound as bad as I imagined it. It's mostly incomplete; but if it's more than just a rumor, and the rest of the WD-Dex complements this well; the Sisters might not get as nerfed as I dreaded.


----------



## Shandathe

... where'd the Immolators go? 

Anyway, not to point out the obvious, but I'm going to point out the obvious. Unless Repentia have their current point cost just about halved they'll remain in their near-useless state. 

They can be baited to whatever target the opponent feels like (most likely a dedicated CC squad, but faraway guns also work. They're slow in the current mechanized environment). 

They'll always strike last (Init 1, anyway), and the Act of Faith that lets them strike back despite being killed only works once in every three attempts... 

FNP might keep them a bit more survivable, but still. I'm not going to spend 20 points each on them.


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Zion said:


> I like the clarification on some of this stuff [Repressors!].




Oh yes, I don't need excuses to buy more tanks.


----------



## Zion

Inquisitor_Win said:


> Although I find some of these rumors a bit unnerving...
> 
> [:shok: Those better be some mind blowing Acts of Faith to have such a high fail rate. Granted, when I started playing my SoB army I kept forgetting to use Acts of Faith and still scraped a few ties.]


A couple of the Acts of Faith are listed there [Sisters and Repentia specifically]. No idea how deep it goes exactly though.



Inquisitor_Win said:


> ... it doesn't sound as bad as I imagined it. It's mostly incomplete; but if it's more than just a rumor, and the rest of the WD-Dex complements this well; the Sisters might not get as nerfed as I dreaded.


It's a little more complete than BoK's original rumor release. Some of the stuff is a lot clearer, like each faith test is 1D6.



Shandathe said:


> ... where'd the Immolators go?


I have a feeling they're still there, but there is some confused cross-talk on who gets what at the moment going on between the informants and the people posting.



Shandathe said:


> Anyway, not to point out the obvious, but I'm going to point out the obvious. Unless Repentia have their current point cost just about halved they'll remain in their near-useless state.
> 
> They can be baited to whatever target the opponent feels like (most likely a dedicated CC squad, but faraway guns also work. They're slow in the current mechanized environment).
> 
> They'll always strike last (Init 1, anyway), and the Act of Faith that lets them strike back despite being killed only works once in every three attempts...
> 
> FNP might keep them a bit more survivable, but still. I'm not going to spend 20 points each on them.


I'm with you that they need some help to be viable in this mech based game. Who know how that'll work out exactly though. We haven't seen everything yet so I wouldn't get too get too worked up over points cost just yet.



Inquisitor_Win said:


> Oh yes, I don't need excuses to buy more tanks.


I don't need an excuse myself. But it helps. :wink:


----------



## mahavira

Damn work, missed my chance to join in saying how terrible priests are (you guys missed one thing: due to the minimum squad size, in a mech list they can't be put with anyone but your elites, so as to maximize the damage they do to your side). There is one use for them other than repentia, however: they are a vital part of a full Trogdor squad: 5 dominions in immolator, 4 flamers, Veteran superior with combi flamer, and priest with a brazier of holy flame. Points efficient, not even remotely, but 6 flamer templates with the possibility of getting them to rend?

My recollection is that Blood of Kittens had a terrible reputation, rumorwise. Has this changed?

In any event, I have difficulty believing that there will be a rules release, WD or not, without a model release, and most sources seem to say the models will be a while yet because of the sleeves. If and when they do a release, I shall be interested to see the interview with the authors/artists/sculptors, if only to see if they have anything to say to people who have wasted hundreds of dollars on inquisition models they can no longer use, particularly after the GK codex showed inquisition units that were actually potentially useful.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> Damn work, missed my chance to join in saying how terrible priests are (you guys missed one thing: due to the minimum squad size, in a mech list they can't be put with anyone but your elites, so as to maximize the damage they do to your side). There is one use for them other than repentia, however: they are a vital part of a full Trogdor squad: 5 dominions in immolator, 4 flamers, Veteran superior with combi flamer, and priest with a brazier of holy flame. Points efficient, not even remotely, but 6 flamer templates with the possibility of getting them to rend?


That could be entertaining to try once, maybe twice when people don't expect it.



mahavira said:


> My recollection is that Blood of Kittens had a terrible reputation, rumorwise. Has this changed?


A broken clock is right twice a day. And what I posted collaborates some of what he said. Hilariously on DakkaDakka BoK has a great rep but Stickmonkey has a horrible one. Guess it's all a matter of where you hang out. Personally I'm not picking sides, I'm just looking at all the rumors as if they were true. That way I can't be dissapointed when the bad ones turn out to be true, and I can be happy when the good ones come true.



mahavira said:


> In any event, I have difficulty believing that there will be a rules release, WD or not, without a model release, and most sources seem to say the models will be a while yet because of the sleeves. If and when they do a release, I shall be interested to see the interview with the authors/artists/sculptors, if only to see if they have anything to say to people who have wasted hundreds of dollars on inquisition models they can no longer use, particularly after the GK codex showed inquisition units that were actually potentially useful.


I've been hearing two sides to the models thing and some of them are saying yes, some of the models are ready and that they've seen them. Others are saying that they're a long way off and have been saying that since last year.

Obviously they both can't be right or things have changed. Supposedly the Dark Eldar have helped fix the sleeve issue, so if that's true and that was the only thing holding the models back who know

If I recall the usual GW press release they'll probably be so proud of themselves for letting you use those Inquisitorial Henchmen with the "fancy new" Confessor! And you don't want to use the new Confessor model or want to wait for one? Just reuse your old Witch Hunters Inquisitor model!

Oh, and how they're trying to listen to the fans more and that's why the Inquisitorial troops are gone which will lead to in-fighting on if they should have been there or not.

At least that's my prediction.


----------



## Zion

Spent a couple hours dredging the net to see what else I could turn up for Sisters rumors and 90% of the recent postings are all about Tasty's post (thinning out the results related to him and the WD leak got me down to only 130 results out of a few hundred thousand to comb through). 

Needless to say I didn't find much. But Jared van Kell over on Librarium had another tidbit that I found interesting. For the sake of clarity I'm leaving off the part of his post that doesn't apply to Sisters (you can find the original post here if you're curious).



Jared van Kell said:


> Oh and yes apparently there are new models on the way according to one very descriptive source.
> 
> *JvK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Obviously we all know they're coming eventually but I'm thinking that he's implying that they're coming sooner than we might be expecting (perhaps Ghost21's sighting of the 5 Sister boxes is right?)

Granted, it's just speculation, but I felt the possibility is worth including since we know GW wants to make money and not releasing some kind of plastic kit would be financial suicide. I wouldn't put it past them to do an Assault on Black Reach style starter kit and move on to real models with the real codex later to be honest.

For such an "exciting" rumor wave that hit....there really wasn't much. Just Tasty and Jared as far as I can tell who put out anything in the last few days on the White Dwarf codex and what's coming in it. It'll be interesting to see how close this is, and how everything fits together.


----------



## Grogbart

Concerning Repentia cost:

I would have loved to see them exploit their current fluff entry, where it says Repentia are equipped with ceremonial Eviscerators (in a 'ceremonial' = 'not fully-fledged' sense). Instead of S6, PW, I1, 2D6 AP those Ceremonial Eviscerators could be S4, normal Ini (preferably 4) and Rending and of course the option to upgrade to a proper Eviscerator.
This would have solved quite a few Issues for me.
Repentia could be cheaper, no longer Ini 1 only (leaving the Mistress aside) and it would explain those supposed to be oversized Eviscerators coming out really short on the current models (meaning a really large Chainblade would be enough to distinguish non-ceremonial from ceremonial Eviscerators).

A second base Attack would be nice also, but I'm not quite sure if that would drive the Repentias' cost up too much again?

As for the updated romours, still no fleet on the Repentia!?


----------



## Shandathe

Grogbart said:


> it would explain those supposed to be oversized Eviscerators coming out really short on the current models (meaning a really large Chainblade would be enough to distinguish non-ceremonial from ceremonial Eviscerators).


I'll say, the damn Eviscerator on the Repentia is shorter than the normal Chainsword (on for example the Seraphim Superior or Canoness. Unless you want to claim THOSE are Eviscerators.)


----------



## Biellann

Zion said:


> I like the clarification on some of this stuff [Repressors!].


Looking at what was quoted, if you replace Repressors with Immolators, it makes more sense. Especially this part:



> Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith


Considering that Repressor's squad size is the same as a Rhino's, hence doesn't need to change, while an Immolator's does.


----------



## Zion

Biellann said:


> Considering that Repressor's squad size is the same as a Rhino's, hence doesn't need to change, while an Immolator's does.


Very true. I'll be interested where they set its points cost, rules and most importantly model kit if this is true. 

Too expensive and it'll be useless to field, if it keeps it current rules that'd be good (especially the fire points), and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being another Rhino variant model kit.

Actually all things considered, they could have replace the Rhino completely with the Repressor and I wouldn't be too upset. All my Rhinos are made from the Immolator kit so I've got the extra Immolator turret pieces (plus cooler looking Rhinos than the Space Marines!).


----------



## Synack

From LO, most of it is reposted, but thought I would post it for comepleteness
Post here


Jared van Kell said:


> Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.
> 
> Basic Composition
> 
> The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
> Assasins are gone.
> All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
> Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.
> 
> Acts of Faith
> 
> Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
> Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
> Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
> Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.
> 
> Units
> 
> Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.
> 
> Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.
> 
> St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.
> 
> Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.
> 
> Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
> Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.
> 
> Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
> may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.
> 
> Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.
> 
> Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.
> 
> *JvK B)*


----------



## TheSpore

Synack said:


> From LO, most of it is reposted, but thought I would post it for comepleteness
> Post here


sounds like a good update but the faith thing sounds a lil messed up now...

5+ sux it should be something like maybe a morale test or the roll gets better as the squad dies off. 6+ inv is cool but thats kinda odd that GW would go with that kinda save very rarely do they set a save that high. other than that it doesn't sound too bad im satisfied at least


----------



## Synack

TheSpore said:


> sounds like a good update but the faith thing sounds a lil messed up now...
> 
> 5+ sux it should be something like maybe a morale test or the roll gets better as the squad dies off. 6+ inv is cool but thats kinda odd that GW would go with that kinda save very rarely do they set a save that high. other than that it doesn't sound too bad im satisfied at least


The vindicare would like to disagree with you and talk to you about his 6+ FnP save


----------



## TheSpore

Synack said:


> The vindicare would like to disagree with you and talk to you about his 6+ FnP save


lol i forgot about that


----------



## Dagmire

I will be pissed if my faith tests are moved to a 5+ die roll. Bollox to that!


----------



## TheSpore

Dagmire said:


> I will be pissed if my faith tests are moved to a 5+ die roll. Bollox to that!


I will as well... Though the orirginal faith system needed a lil bit of a change but I think the whole 5+ plus thing just makes it too random and difficult.


----------



## Synack

I won't mind the 5+, so long as we can roll more than one dice, ie: you choose how many dice you want to use to roll from your faith pool. Then it should work fine.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> I'll be interested where they set its points cost


Since it is the exact same thing as a Razorback with the turret at the front instead of the back I would guess they are around that price point. Only difference is that the Razorback can take more weapon options iirc.



Dagmire said:


> I will be pissed if my faith tests are moved to a 5+ die roll. Bollox to that!


schadenfreude on Dakka have a very interesting post that might be of interest and grounds for clarification regarding Faith rules.
So is this a likely way the new Faith system works?

Here is his post:


> It’s a bit early, but I’m going to call it when it comes to faith points. Units will be able to burn multiple faith dice on a single roll.
> 
> I’m going to use a sisters army with 8 faith generating units as an example (just call it 2 HQ, 2 elites, 4 troops)
> 
> Fist off let’s look at the # of faith points generated per turn. 1D6 per unit may seem really random at first, but it’s not. 1D6 is a very random # with 1 hardly being any faith points and 6 being more than the average unit needs. That being said faith points won’t be very random at all because 8D6 from 8 units will consistently produce approximately 27 faith points per turn give or take 8 points resulting in 35 being a feast and 19 being a famine. Rolls such as 8 or 64 are statistically possible, but highly improbable (1,679,616 to 1 odds to be exact). Faith generated per turn will be very steady and consistent as long as there are a lot of faith producing units.
> 
> Now that we’ve established that 8 faith generating units will generate a somewhat reliable average of 3.5 faith points how the hell are they going to burn 3.5 faith dice per turn if they can only use 1 faith die per test? How is having 8 units make 27 faith tests per tun making faith tests “more streamlined”? 27 faith tests per turn would be completely silly and devoid of any skill. SoB players would just activate 1 faith die every chance they get, and hope they can actually burn all their faith points per turn. In short they need to be able to burn more than 1 die per test to use up all those faith points.
> 
> My guess is that squad upgrades, HQ units, wargear such as imagifers, and maybe casualties (say being below half strength as a squad) would allow squads to burn additional dice on a single test. Once squads can burn more than 1 die per test a 5+ faith check becomes far less unreliable.
> 
> 1D6=33.3% chance of success
> 2D6=55.5% chance of success
> 3D6=70.4% chance of success
> 4D6=80.25% chance of success
> 5D6=86.8% chance of success
> 6D6=91.3 chance of success
> 
> Diminishing returns really starts to kick in at 4D6, so if sisters can burn 3 faith points for 3 dice at a chance to succeed faith would be reliable.


It does make sense if you generate anywhere between 1 and 100 faith points per turn depending on how many faith generating units you have. Big question is which units can provide faith points? Regular Battle Sisters, Dominions, and Retributors are not faithful currently without a VSS. So do you need to take one in order to make them faithful?
What about Imagifiers? Allows you to make the test on a 4+?
Litanies of Faith still in?


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Synack said:


> I won't mind the 5+, so long as we can roll more than one dice, ie: you choose how many dice you want to use to roll from your faith pool. Then it should work fine.


That sounds reasonable. Also it would complement the "Each Faithful Unit rolls a 1D6 and add that many points to the Faith pool for that turn."


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> I will as well... Though the orirginal faith system needed a lil bit of a change but I think the whole 5+ plus thing just makes it too random and difficult.


One one die, sure. If we can throw as many dice as we want into trying to get the Faith powers off it'd get pretty silly pretty quick, but we'd get a lot more effects off successfully. 

I wonder if we roll each game turn, or each player turn? How long do the powers last? If it's only in that phase then it'd explain why we're getting so many points to burn. Especially if it's each Game Turn they regenerate (and we roll for bonus points) it'll still involve the management of said points in a fairly tactical manner.

But it's a big wait and see.

One thing I'd like to see is the Sarrissa being something given to all the Battle Sisters who have Boltguns, and make it so they wound on 4+ with it or give us rerolls to wound. It'd keep us from being horribly slaughtered in combat with T4+ threats, only benefit the Sisters who have the Boltguns, making them more important to keep around too instead of sacrificing all of them to protect your special/heavy weapons (especially if you're about to get slammed into combat by a more CC oriented group). The 4+ option means we aren't wounding any better against T3 which helps keep balance (since it'd only help us wound higher toughness units more often), but the reroll option would let us wound everything more often.

EDIT: After looking in the codex again (as I'm still trying to memorize more of it) I see the Sarrissa grants rerolls to Characters who purchase one (costing as much as our Extra Armor) but it's only available to a select few models on the board who can get better options. Yeah, the standard Sisters should have this instead since I could see them fixing nasty spiked bayonets onto their Bolters to better penetrate their enemy's armor to kill Heretical PDFs, and even heretic or chaos tainted Space Marines. *coughSpaceWolvescoughandcoughGreyKnightscoughespeciallycoughcough*

I'm not saying we need uber-killy Sisters in combat (though a unit of those would be nice *COUGHBETTERREPENTIAPLEASEHINTHINTGW!!!!COUGH*, but they need something to keep them from being Imperial Tau in Power Armor. We don't have the numbers Guard do, so getting hit in close combat hurts us more than it does a large unit of Guard [or Nids...or Orks] who can bog down a Space Marine unit and weather them down in combat. And if we do large numbers of Sisters to help balance that out we suffer from not being fast enough to catch faster lists.


----------



## rasolyo

Synack said:


> From LO, most of it is reposted, but thought I would post it for comepleteness
> Post here


"Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards."

If I might be anal for a bit: aren't they going to be removed _anyway_?

Or is this an act of faith that makes you decide before they make saves/take unsaved wounds?


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> "Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards."
> 
> If I might be anal for a bit: aren't they going to be removed _anyway_?
> 
> Or is this an act of faith that makes you decide before they make saves/take unsaved wounds?


Probably when the assault phase occurs. Or at the start of each turn?

I think it's to allow you to get your I1 attacks without being torrented to death first in close combat. Since all regular Repentia are equipped the same I think you'd probably just have to keep track of how many failed armor saves you have and pull that many models afterwards. 

Granted that's just my assumption on how that'd work.


----------



## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> Big question is which units can provide faith points? Regular Battle Sisters, Dominions, and Retributors are not faithful currently without a VSS. So do you need to take one in order to make them faithful?


Don't 5th edition codices include Veteran Sergeants as standard?



Zion said:


> One thing I'd like to see is the Sarrissa being something given to all the Battle Sisters who have Boltguns, and make it so they wound on 4+ with it or give us rerolls to wound. It'd keep us from being horribly slaughtered in combat with T4+ threats, only benefit the Sisters who have the Boltguns, making them more important to keep around too instead of sacrificing all of them to protect your special/heavy weapons (especially if you're about to get slammed into combat by a more CC oriented group). The 4+ option means we aren't wounding any better against T3 which helps keep balance (since it'd only help us wound higher toughness units more often), but the reroll option would let us wound everything more often.


That seems rather an illogical rule to me. I don't see any relationship between "has a spiked bayonet" and "wounds Wraithlords on a 4+".

The role I suggested for the weapon is to be given to Celestians as standard and make Bolters count as Assault weapons for the purposes of charging. This would mean a Celestian squad would get four attacks in the first round of close combat: two bolter shots and two melee attacks.


----------



## Zion

AlexHolker said:


> That seems rather an illogical rule to me. I don't see any relationship between "has a spiked bayonet" and "wounds Wraithlords on a 4+".


Think of hitting someone with a baseball bat then think of that baseball bat with nails in it. The spiky one hurts more. :biggrin:

Seriously though, it was just a short brainstorm on a way to help Sisters keep from being completely useless in close combat. Keeping the reroll wounds that the current Sarrissa has would be fine, it just needs to be given to more Sisters than just the characters and Vet Sisters who wield Bolters.



AlexHolker said:


> The role I suggested for the weapon is to be given to Celestians as standard and make Bolters count as Assault weapons for the purposes of charging. This would mean a Celestian squad would get four attacks in the first round of close combat: two bolter shots and two melee attacks.


I don't see the Boltgun profile being changed since that would confuse too many people who are used to the Space Marine version. And since Sisters' have the Holy Trinity of Bolters, Flamers and Meltas I don't see Celestians taking a different weapon to do that either.


----------



## AlexHolker

Zion said:


> I don't see the Boltgun profile being changed since that would confuse too many people who are used to the Space Marine version.


I didn't say it would change the Boltgun profile, I said it would let you ignore the rule that says you can't fire a Rapid Fire weapon and charge in the same turn.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

Maybe there can be a Sisters power for Celestians that gives Relentless. It seems that is what you are going for Alex. It would be a nice gift to them making multi-meltas and heavy bolters not be a hindrance on the squad.


----------



## Shandathe

I'd be happy if they just give us the Book back, which effectively made us Stubborn...


----------



## Zion

Kharn said:


> Maybe there can be a Sisters power for Celestians that gives Relentless. It seems that is what you are going for Alex. It would be a nice gift to them making multi-meltas and heavy bolters not be a hindrance on the squad.


That would work pretty well actually and would benefit the army quite nicely. Plus it'd give you a reason to be lugging around a Melta/Multi-Melta combo across the board when your transport pops [assuming you're not running foot Sisters].


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

It would make the HF not be the go to choice on Celestians IMO.

I like being able to have some variance in my squads for utility.


----------



## Kettu

In regards to the Sarrissa. Sisters of Battle are trained in some form Martial Art that is unique to them and is, supposedly, one of the best combat styles a normal human could learn, making them the best unaugmented human combatants in the galaxy.
Mayhaps the Sarrissa is related to this?

Anyway, Dark Heresy book, Inquisitors Handbook mentions that the Sarrissa is a massive blade with which the bolter counts as a Mono-axe and seems more similar to an Ork Choppa then just a bayonet.

---

Meanwhile about Repentia.

I, awhile ago, tested Repentia a fair few times with varied rules.
I found in the end FnP, no armour save, Stike in I order if the Repentia charge and get to still strike even if killed before hand and 12-15 points worked best.

As it stands, the rumoured Repentia changes keeps them useless. They lost points (Not enough) and their vaguely more useful Rage rule for the USR useless one and an Act Of Faith???

Sorry, isn't the reason they are Repentia in the first place because they *LOST THEIR FAITH?!*

---

And ok, GW introduces Faith mechanic, found small easily spammable faith wasn't fitting, realistic or special and thus ramps up their ability but massively lowers the faith count as well as introduces the over-under system to curtail to much abuse.
Now they seemed to have flip-flopped back to their earlier small-but-spamable style.

I'm going to have to dig out my old WD and see who wrote the first Sisters list, see if that's the reason.

But also, if they wanted to mimic the WFB magic system, then why not go the whole hog and have several acts going from mundane to game breaking and you have to roll anywhere from 3+ to >9000?

Wouldn't the ability for a whole squad to just get back up again after a turn, Saint Celestine Style, be great?


----------



## Zion

Kharn said:


> It would make the HF not be the go to choice on Celestians IMO.
> 
> I like being able to have some variance in my squads for utility.


It'd also make the Priest's "YOU MUST ASSAULT" rule a lot more useful. Perhaps that's where they could stick the "gives Relentless" rule to make it an actual useful ability that could benefit more kinds of units?


----------



## Kinglopey

MadCowCrazy said:


> It does make sense if you generate anywhere between 1 and 100 faith points per turn depending on how many faith generating units you have. Big question is which units can provide faith points? Regular Battle Sisters, Dominions, and Retributors are not faithful currently without a VSS. So do you need to take one in order to make them faithful?
> What about Imagifiers? Allows you to make the test on a 4+?
> Litanies of Faith still in?


What if the new FP system works more like marker lights where the more you spend the easier the roll is?

That would make more sense with a pool that rolling multiple dice, no?


----------



## gally912

So reading that faith rules, is anyone else seeing the similarities between that and the Fantasy Battle magic system?


----------



## TheSpore

Kinglopey said:


> What if the new FP system works more like marker lights where the more you spend the easier the roll is?
> 
> That would make more sense with a pool that rolling multiple dice, no?


thats what I was thinking as well


----------



## AlexHolker

gally912 said:


> So reading that faith rules, is anyone else seeing the similarities between that and the Fantasy Battle magic system?


Yeah. Coming from the guy who gave Gargoyles WHFB poison instead of 40k poison, I'm starting to notice a trend.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

Zion said:


> It'd also make the Priest's "YOU MUST ASSAULT" rule a lot more useful. Perhaps that's where they could stick the "gives Relentless" rule to make it an actual useful ability that could benefit more kinds of units?


I hope they get rid of that Holy Rage nonsense and make it not counter-productive. Relentless would fix it a little, but I still find it and Rage annoying.

I would like to see Righteous Zeal become a USR. Tweaked a little maybe, but it would make sense on Repentia and some other Ecclesiarch units.


----------



## Shandathe

We'll see I guess. Until GW sends out the August WDs, it's still all pure speculation.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> We'll see I guess. Until GW sends out the August WDs, it's still all pure speculation.


But unless something's changed we won't have the point costs for everything until September (or alternatively we'll get HALF the codex in August and the rest in September!?).

I'm still trying to work out how this could be a smart move to split it in half. Unless all the fluff and how to paint articles are in August and the rules and points are in September, but even then you're not going to be able to really sell the army since no one can play it until September.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> I'm still trying to work out how this could be a smart move to split it in half. Unless all the fluff and how to paint articles are in August and the rules and points are in September, but even then you're not going to be able to really sell the army since no one can play it until September.


Thats what they did with blood angels - fluff and stat lines in month 1, army list in month 2.


----------



## Shandathe

The 'smart' in this is that you'll need to buy two White Dwarfs, instead of one.

Oh, you wanted a reason that didn't involve GW getting more of your money... err... with the armylist being in only one, you don't actually have to carry the second one along? 

On the bright side, we get two issues of White Dwarf in which it's actually acknowledged we EXIST.


----------



## Maidel

Sensible reason why its split over two editions:

If it was all in 1 then it would probably take over 1/2 of the magasine, and thats not what they like to do as it doesnt leave them enough space for all the other things.


----------



## andrewm9

Maidel said:


> Thats what they did with blood angels - fluff and stat lines in month 1, army list in month 2.


Rules for the units and fluff stuff (short as it was) were in one issue and stats/army list were in the next.


----------



## Creon

No, you'll need both WDs. Because the special rules will be in Section I, and the points in Section II. No one will allow you to tell them what Faith does without the army book entries in Section I.


----------



## AlexHolker

Maidel said:


> Sensible reason why its split over two editions:
> 
> If it was all in 1 then it would probably take over 1/2 of the magasine, and thats not what they like to do as it doesnt leave them enough space for all the other things.


Oh really? Devoting half the magazine to [del]advertisements[/del] articles for the new FotM seems like standard operating procedure to me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maidel said:


> Sensible reason why its split over two editions:
> 
> If it was all in 1 then it would probably take over 1/2 of the magasine, and thats not what they like to do as it doesnt leave them enough space for all the SPHEEEZEE MAAHREEENEE things.


Fixed that for you :crazy:


----------



## Zion

Maidel said:


> Sensible reason why its split over two editions:
> 
> If it was all in 1 then it would probably take over 1/2 of the magasine, and thats not what they like to do as it doesnt leave them enough space for all the other things.


So they don't want give up their precious space to shill product and have two page articles about how awesome their products are (I'm looking at you 'Standard Bearer')?

Honestly it'd be less of a loss for them to go full out and do an expanded issue, or cut out the ads and actually devote the White Dwarf to the Sisters. That way they could push new products, units and really get people hyped about playing the Sisters (which is what I'm assuming they want to do so they can make as much money as possibe). 

But then again, when I compare my marketing ideas for pushing these new products and armies (like say showing people how to paint one of the new models in your White Dwarf to both show off the model and give people useful tips?) to GWs I sometimes feel like I might be the crazy one because it seems so obvious how it could be better.


----------



## Shandathe

Standard Bearer is like the ONE spot in WD where they're NOT immediately trying to sell you things all the time.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

Shandathe said:


> On the bright side, we get two issues of White Dwarf in which it's actually acknowledged we EXIST.



LOL you make Sisters players sound like Nevernudes.

"There are dozens of us. DOZENS OF US!"

(If you have not seen Arrested Development, I apologize)


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Standard Bearer is like the ONE spot in WD where they're NOT immediately trying to sell you things all the time.


You didn't read Jervis' recent articles about the things he'd like to have with him if he was stranded on a desert island have you? It was four total pages with him endlessly gushing about models (like Metiphiston) and kits (Land Raiders) and how his luxuary item would be their massive paint kit.

It was completly dedicated to shilling their products.


----------



## Zion

More posting by Jared Van Kell over on Libarium Online. SOURCE



Jared van Kell said:


> Well quite easily actually. At the begining of the turn you roll however many D6, depending on how many "Faithful" units you have to determine how many faith points you get for that turn. You choose whether you want to use a faith point to activate a particular Act of Faith ie: re-roll to hit in shooting, roll to see if it works, if it does you get to use the Act of Faith if it does not then you don't.
> 
> I'm sure the average Sisters of Battle player is not stupid and can work out how to understand rules when they are written down in front of them as each Act of Faith will describe when it can be used. In addition to this I believe you can use more than one Act of Faith per turn, per unit, which justifies the 5+ to use them because the Sisters of Battle would likely be overpowered for their points costs if every one of the "faithful" units could easily re-roll to hit in both shooting and combat every turn.
> 
> JvK


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Damn ninjas


----------



## Maidel

andrewm9 said:


> Rules for the units and fluff stuff (short as it was) were in one issue and stats/army list were in the next.


No, sorry, I have it in front of me here - part one was fluff and the 'unit entries' which includes the stat lines and all the special rules

Part 2 was just the army list.



Zion said:


> You didn't read Jervis' recent articles about the things he'd like to have with him if he was stranded on a desert island have you? It was four total pages with him endlessly gushing about models (like Metiphiston) and kits (Land Raiders) and how his luxuary item would be their massive paint kit.
> 
> It was completly dedicated to shilling their products.


Have you read any of the other standard bearers? Because most of them are on non-sales things like 'fair play' and 'dice' and all manner of random stuff that has nothing to do with purchases.



Zion said:


> Honestly it'd be less of a loss for them to go full out and do an expanded issue, or cut out the ads and actually devote the White Dwarf to the Sisters. That way they could push new products, units and really get people hyped about playing the Sisters (which is what I'm assuming they want to do so they can make as much money as possibe).


Why would they do that? They are effectively giving away a £20 codex for the price of two white dwarfs. They arent going to be selling many models off the back of it (hell half of the units arent even available!), and they arent doing this in stead of other releases, rather along side them.

The blood angels WD codex was 15 pages from two white dwarfs (30 pages over all). Thats a heck of a lot of space to give over to them.



AlexHolker said:


> Oh really? Devoting half the magazine to [del]advertisements[/del] articles for the new FotM seems like standard operating procedure to me.


Yes, but they arent the army of the month - they arent using wd to actually sell any models because there is a 99% chance there wont be any new models at all.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Fixed that for you :crazy:


Well they are in power armour - its HALF way there.


----------



## Zion

Maidel said:


> Have you read any of the other standard bearers? Because most of them are on non-sales things like 'fair play' and 'dice' and all manner of random stuff that has nothing to do with purchases.


No I have not. I've only recently started to pick up the White Dwarf magazine, but if that is the way Jervis is starting to go with Standard Bearer from where you mention he came from...well that'd be just sad.


----------



## Shandathe

It was just a series of two articles. Seriously, Standard Bearer is whatever Jervis feels like talking about, and if that's four pages of waxing poetically about some of his favourite models, that's what's in the column


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> It was just a series of two articles. Seriously, Standard Bearer is whatever Jervis feels like talking about, and if that's four pages of waxing poetically about some of his favourite models, that's what's in the column


Fine and dandy unless he starts doing it every single month. If he does then I'll start skipping that section.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> No I have not. I've only recently started to pick up the White Dwarf magazine, but if that is the way Jervis is starting to go with Standard Bearer from where you mention he came from...well that'd be just sad.


I think it was a 'one off' - sure he mentions GW products all the time, but many of them are about 'gaming' or tournaments or many other things.

Im sure you can 'read into' each of them and find advertising in each, but I seriously dont think thats the intention.


----------



## mahavira

Don't think this has been mentioned yet: Hammer and Anvil (novel featuring sisters and Necrons) has been pushed back to December, but there's a new audio drama in October (Red and Black) (both by Jack 'you mean characters need personalities as well as names?' Swallow, more's the pity). May not mean anything - certainly the timing of black library stuff isn't often related to the timing of anything else.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It's been mentioned a few months back. I asked James why it was pushed back from September to December and the reply I got was that it's to "incorporate the new Necron fluff". He would not reveal what type of fluff but with the latest Necron rumours saying they have basically broken free from the C'tan I guess that has allot to do with it.


----------



## Kettu

> Well quite easily actually. At the begining of the turn you roll however many D6, depending on how many "Faithful" units you have to determine how many faith points you get for that turn. You choose whether you want to use a faith point to activate a particular Act of Faith ie: re-roll to hit in shooting, roll to see if it works, if it does you get to use the Act of Faith if it does not then you don't.
> 
> I'm sure the average Sisters of Battle player is not stupid and can work out how to understand rules when they are written down in front of them as each Act of Faith will describe when it can be used. In addition to this I believe you can use more than one Act of Faith per turn, per unit, which justifies the 5+ to use them because the Sisters of Battle would likely be overpowered for their points costs if every one of the "faithful" units could easily re-roll to hit in both shooting and combat every turn.
> 
> JvK


Well that's all well and good but whilst we are generating an average of 10-30 faith points per tun (As opposed to the 8-12 per game we previously had) what will all our excess points go towards?


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's been mentioned a few months back. I asked James why it was pushed back from September to December and the reply I got was that it's to "incorporate the new Necron fluff". He would not reveal what type of fluff but with the latest Necron rumours saying they have basically broken free from the C'tan I guess that has allot to do with it.


Considering the very original blurb given was that it would be the Massacre of Sanctuary 101 and not return to, I think the book has gone through several rewrites by now.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

> because the rules suck for anyone that has seen them . +6inv is nothing when sobs are close range shoting list and cover everywhere is+4 and in hth they just die and double re-roll to celestines doesnt help here because you need to glue an HQ to them and they cost 16 pts each . which is not ok for a str 3 model , re-rolls or not .
> 
> the faith works too random too and for some units it doesnt make sense . dominions one buffs flamers , but why would you be runing them with flamers when what a sob list needs is anti tank [as sob dont have long range support units in other slots like sm have with dreads , speeders or attack bike]. the serafin one is nice because it works like the old one and with the twin linke re-rolls you ger more chance for rending , but they cost 22 pts and cant use it when you join a non seraf HQ with them [which means your runings a str 3 T 3 unit with 12" range without proper support] .
> there is just no unit synergy between the units . but worse are the "tac" sob who cares they get a a faith power for every occasion when A the chance to get it are avarge [50/50 stuff sucks] and the faith doesnt realy make them like tacticals . because tacticals are t4 str 4 with chapter tactics which buffs them [or they are GH/RAS for BA and we are talking about something cheaper and better at the same time].
> 
> 
> the good change happened to repentia . I told it many times that just giving them FNP or lowering the points cost [unless it was to something like 8 pts each] would not be enough . GW did both making them , well not good , but at least they are not the worse unit in the game anymore . Would be nice sob players could get more units then one [2x12 would be not good but enough for those "fluffy"/fun lists . one unit of 16-18 still kind of a sucks] . the almost auto cast on power when misstress is alive is nice too .
> 
> 
> I wish that exorcist were given GK fortiude because they are still the only viable hvy support [for all round lists of course. I can imagine someone wanting to piss off his green tide friend and playing a 3x4 hvy bolters +3ximolator with hvy bolter set up] .
> 
> lost of book is going to be huge for sob players . Sure one can take the saint ,the banner a unit of serafs or an all celestian army[which imo will suck] but thats 500pts+ for getting a 12" bubble of almost ATSKNF . well one just can hope the sob rhinos will die less or something [and that sob player will never have to play against a shoty lists like razors spams or IG or SW] .
> 
> The WD dex aint bad [unless someone liked to use inq stuff or assasins or was very lucky with faith] , but 35 pts rhinos do not make an army viable when it becomes random . GK with their psychic powers are awesome , very hard to play against with armies without psychic defense . But GK without those psychic powers are good too . Sob be it with the dex we have now or the WD dex cant play without faith . And faith IMO is too random in the WD dex . 50/50 chance to get a power off is not good.


-The Jeske (Bolter and Chainsword)

Don't know where he is getting his info, almost seems he has seen the dex as I hadn't seen anything about the dominions having a flame based act of faith elsewhere. (and despite his opinion I think 4x flamer dominions are oh so necessary....BURN)

Also note the contradiction, as he says 50/50, but others have said 33% chance.

also claims the book of st. Lu is gone.

an all-celestian force.

He seems to say that seraphim get the new "Divine Guidance" but the rumor from BOK said Rets get that one.


Either he has seen it, or a different set of rumors than I've come accross, or misinterpeted a few things/ changed in playtest.


Boreas had posted a small rumor from him before about GK's that was (mostly)accurate in December. Detailing that only one of each type of special weapon would be included, and lamenting the sheer amount of heraldry in the box. There was also something about different types of nemesis weapons that was too hard for me to understand due to his broken english.

I think he's seen it.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

If 50/50 is bad for getting the powers off, then the amount of faith points generated should make up for it right? Rumours said there would be a lot of faith point generation within the army. So if there is only a 50% chance of getting a power off the plethora of faith points that we supposedly get should make up for it.

Now the all of the powers on squads being unique is just plain annoying. Having a basic list and maybe some specialist powers is fine on a unit basis. However, from what we are hearing if Seraphim can twin-link their guns and Dominions only get a flamer power that is _kind _of lame. 

I will reserve my judgment until I see the damned thing, but so far the book sounds like its been "siphoned" of all its variety and has some bad design decisions placed on it.


----------



## Necrosis

Kharn said:


> If 50/50 is bad for getting the powers off, then the amount of faith points generated should make up for it right? Rumours said there would be a lot of faith point generation within the army. So if there is only a 50% chance of getting a power off the plethora of faith points that we supposedly get should make up for it.
> 
> Now the all of the powers on squads being unique is just plain annoying. Having a basic list and maybe some specialist powers is fine on a unit basis. However, from what we are hearing if Seraphim can twin-link their guns and Dominions only get a flamer power that is _kind _of lame.
> 
> I will reserve my judgment until I see the damned thing, but so far the book sounds like its been "siphoned" of all its variety and has some bad design decisions placed on it.


His rumor seems to contradict the other rumor. So I'm going to assume that BoK is right and everything he written is false.


----------



## Synack

I'm personally hoping all squads and vehicles get access to psybolt ammo. I could be liking the idea of 4 retributors with psybolt ammo in a immolators with h-bolter and psybolt ammo.


----------



## Kharn the Betrayer

Necrosis said:


> His rumor seems to contradict the other rumor. So I'm going to assume that BoK is right and everything he written is false.


I can not really trust either. So its going to be a "wait and see" kind of attitude. If any rules pop up I have no problem with reading them and digesting them, but I won't take it as the LAW. 

They sound interesting to say the least.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Could you please post a link to the thread on BC because I could not find it.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Could you please post a link to the thread on BC because I could not find it.


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=231798&view=findpost&p=2791981


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More from BoK, I really hope he keeps this type or rumours posting up because it's allot better than it used to be. I might start to like BoK if they stop the arrogance 

Sad news about Repressors, I would have expected them to be in if anything, same with Arbites tbh. I guess it's too early to tell but I'm getting the impression the WD dex is pretty meh.



> What is not in the Codex
> 
> Repressors
> Arbites
> 
> The Units (some more information than others)
> 
> Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.
> 
> Repentia: Forgot to mention they have fleet
> 
> Celastians: Cheaper than a Marine, but not really anything going for them (that I know of)… extra attack. Re-roll hits for act of faith
> 
> Sister Battle Squad: Can still get a Heavy Flamer
> 
> Shraphim: They are pretty amazing. Cheaper than a Space Marine you get a Jump Packing, Hit and Running, and an act of faith that has them re-rolling wounds. You can also upgrade them to run with double hand flamers and melta pistols. They act both as an extra close combat weapon and become assault 2 instead of being twin-linked. So that means Assault 2 melta weapons.
> 
> Dominion Squads: Still get 4 special weapons. Act of Faith twin-linked.
> 
> Retributor Squads: Pretty fantastic. CHEAP! Talking under Long Fang cheap to fully kit out. Expect the return of the Heavy Bolter with these. Act of Faith is Rending.
> 
> Penitent Engines: Again fantastic. Same statline (Walker). No Scout or Infiltrate. Cheaper and can be a squadron aka 9 Engines. They still get the 1D6 attacks, but any wounds generate additional attacks (don’t know if they work like Blood Talons). 6+ Invul (don’t know if they generate faith)


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> More from BoK, I really hope he keeps this type or rumours posting up because it's allot better than it used to be. I might start to like BoK if they stop the arrogance
> 
> Sad news about Repressors, I would have expected them to be in if anything, same with Arbites tbh. I guess it's too early to tell but I'm getting the impression the WD dex is pretty meh.


Im drooling now and can't wait until I go home this weekend my sister are comin out the closet(no really they are chillin in a closet right now.)


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Sad news about Repressors, I would have expected them to be in if anything, same with Arbites tbh.


GOOD!

We don't want Arbites. They no more belong in the Sisters' list than they do in Marines, Guard or frelling 'nids.

And the Repressor was never that good. Flamer and firing ports are almost irrelevant on a vehicle that should be moving 12" at all times.


Sad news about the Canonness, though.


----------



## Zion

Huh. Look interesting. Glad to see Tasty putting this up with no real fuss. 

I'd still like to find out what GW's plan is to get people to buy models is.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Interesting question is can you really take 9 Penients in a single squadron? or does he mean 3 walker squadrons per slot like they are now.

In the Blood of Martyrs book it's said they are usually deployed in groups of 3 or more.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Interesting question is can you really take 9 Penients in a single squadron? or does he mean 3 walker squadrons per slot like they are now.
> 
> In the Blood of Martyrs book it's said they are usually deployed in groups of 3 or more.


Maybe a 0-1 selection, or you really can field three full slots of them (I guess 27 Pentinent Engines should in theory to get through to the enemy lines _eventually_).

I'd like to see them being MCs like the Dreadknights too. But if they're getting squadron rules that probably won't happen.

I hope the Canoness is good too. I don't want to end up with her being the new Space Marine Captain. D:


----------



## andrewm9

Color me underwhelmed by these rumors. 

Heavy Bolters are really only good for anti-infantry. I'm not sure I'll trade using Exorcists for retributors. 

Dominions seem to have no real improvement and without Divine Guidance they really aren't all that useful. Space Marines will laugh at 4 flamers. Its not the same as getting hit by 15 burna boyz.

I have mixed feeling about Penitent Engines. Becuase of their weight I have yet to assemble my 3. They only see the table as 3 bases. Maybe if they are cheap enough both in points and dollars I migth buy enough to do some damage. Currently they kind of suck currently. A 6+ invuln save is not going to save them much trouble.

Cheaper Seraphim is good but I'm wondering how long they will last with Faith changed so much.

I seriously hope Sisters have some kind of morale rules to benefit from as they will wilt under assault pretty fast without them much as Necrons currently do.

The comments on the Canoness make me weep as the Canoness is the cornerstone of the army. I need the Leadership 10 buffin my units and her ability to actually do some woudns in close combat makes a huge difference. 

My comments are assuming this is all correct.


----------



## Synack

andrewm9 said:


> Heavy Bolters are really only good for anti-infantry. I'm not sure I'll trade using Exorcists for retributors.


You're forgetting that psybolts is in the WD codex, which means those H-bolters will be S6 rending, which in my book, is pretty damn nice. If they're as cheap as you say and table to take a immolator as a transport with a nice gun, you've got a pretty nice unit.


----------



## andrewm9

Synack said:


> You're forgetting that psybolts is in the WD codex, which means those H-bolters will be S6 rending, which in my book, is pretty damn nice. If they're as cheap as you say and table to take a immolator as a transport with a nice gun, you've got a pretty nice unit.


Who says Sisters are getting psy-bolts?


----------



## Voldrak

You cant have played with Repressors to believe they are not worth it in a sister of battle army.

They outclass and out perform the Rhino on so many levels it's not even funny.

Having the ability to keep your troop inside of a tank and yet still fire 6 boltguns and a heavy flamer or meltagun from the top is insane. with the additional stormbolter and flamer provided by the tank, you basically have your entire squad shooting as if they were not being transported, but are immune to battle cannon blast or anything that could seriously thin down your numbers.

not to mention the dozer blade that comes with it has saved me from many an immobilize as I drove through terrain to claim an objective.

If the rhino gets lowered to 35 points, I'll consider using it as mobile terrain or as a cheap objective holder, but if my opponent consents, ill keep using repressors.


----------



## Maidel

Voldrak said:


> If the rhino gets lowered to 35 points, I'll consider using it as mobile terrain or as a cheap objective holder, but if my opponent consents, ill keep using repressors.


Last time I checked, transports cant claim objectives...


----------



## Voldrak

Obviously not, but you would not be taking a rhino in the first place if you did not have a battle sister squad to get inside it.

If you are going to stay back to hold an objective, might as well make it cheap.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

andrewm9 said:


> Who says Sisters are getting psy-bolts?


BoK
But Psy-bolt doesn't make the weapons rending, it's just +1S. Divine Guidance seems to give them AP1 or Rending so S6 AP1/Rending shots would be what you'd get from Retributors.



> Random tidbits
> 
> All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
> All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
> Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
> Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
> Karamazov gone
> Priests in, pretty much same as before.
> No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters


Question I care more about is if they can get Blessed ammo, that would be scary ignoring cover saves. Ofc you would not be able to use Blessed and Psy-bolt at the same time, that would be silly good.


We have received 2 rumours for the Retributor AoF, one says it's the old Divine Guidance giving AP1 on 6s and the other that they get Rending.

What would make them scary is Psy-Bolt ammo that it's said Sisters will get as well. This would mean Heavy 3, S6 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending.

Another question is if they will get Blessed Ammo, then you would have Heavy 3, S5 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending, Ignore Cover saves.

Both of these would be rather scary imo.


----------



## Shandathe

... 

Psybolts.

In Heavy Bolters wielded by Sisters of Battle. Which is guaranteed to be about as psyker-free a force as it's possible to get.

Yeah, suuuuure they'll get Psybolts.

I hear they'll also be riding to battle on peacocks.

Or it might've been ducks that are on fire


----------



## Katie Drake

Shandathe said:


> ...
> 
> Psybolts.
> 
> In Heavy Bolters wielded by Sisters of Battle. Which is guaranteed to be about as psyker-free a force as it's possible to get.
> 
> Yeah, suuuuure they'll get Psybolts.
> 
> I hear they'll also be riding to battle on peacocks.
> 
> Or it might've been ducks that are on fire


It could be the same upgrade under a different name, blessed ammunition perhaps?


----------



## Synack

They got psybolt in the last codex.


----------



## Azezel

No, Inquisitors (who are all psykers in the codex) got Psybolts.

Sisters didn't and shouldn't.


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> ...
> 
> Psybolts.
> 
> In Heavy Bolters wielded by Sisters of Battle. Which is guaranteed to be about as psyker-free a force as it's possible to get.
> 
> Yeah, suuuuure they'll get Psybolts.
> 
> I hear they'll also be riding to battle on peacocks.
> 
> Or it might've been ducks that are on fire


Im sure it was flaming ducks


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Isn't psy-bolts anti psyker ammo? or do you need to be a psyker to be able to use it?
If it's anti psyker ammo it fits the sisters pretty well if you ask me...


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Isn't psy-bolts anti psyker ammo? or do you need to be a psyker to be able to use it?
> If it's anti psyker ammo it fits the sisters pretty well if you ask me...


I think they're just psychically charged bolter rounds. I don't think one needs to be a psyker to wield them.


----------



## Shandathe

According to the GK Codex, when fired Psybolt ammunition "becomes imbued with a portion of the GK's innate psychic power".

They're not anti-psyker ammunition, they're psyker ammunition. It's always been limited to Psykers.


----------



## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> According to the GK Codex, when fired Psybolt ammunition "becomes imbued with a portion of the GK's innate psychic power".
> 
> They're not anti-psyker ammunition, they're psyker ammunition. It's always been limited to Psykers.


Psycannon bolts from the 3rd edition codex were psychically charged but did not need to be wielded by a psyker. They were imbued metal and made that way. They ignored invulnerable saves.


----------



## Katie Drake

andrewm9 said:


> Psycannon bolts from the 3rd edition codex were psychically charged but did not need to be wielded by a psyker. They were imbued metal and made that way. They ignored invulnerable saves.


Yeah, this is what I was talking about, not the GK psybolts.


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. True, though I don't think any non-Psykers actually had access to them.


----------



## mahavira

Zion said:


> Maybe a 0-1 selection, or you really can field three full slots of them (I guess 27 Pentinent Engines should in theory to get through to the enemy lines _eventually_).
> 
> I'd like to see them being MCs like the Dreadknights too. But if they're getting squadron rules that probably won't happen.
> 
> I hope the Canoness is good too. I don't want to end up with her being the new Space Marine Captain. D:


You can take units of 3 Carnifexes, so they could still be MCs (not sure what you'd call a group of "monstrous creatures" that are actually mechanical exosuits other than a squadron, mind).


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> You can take units of 3 Carnifexes, so they could still be MCs (not sure what you'd call a group of "monstrous creatures" that are actually mechanical exosuits other than a squadron, mind).


Huh, good point. That would make them a LOT better. Especially if they get a decent (a 3+ or 4+) armor save in addition to that 6++.


----------



## Kinglopey

Why would Penitent Engines get the 6++ they aren't faithful or Sortias... they psychers or criminals being punished, similar to arco's but worse...

I must have missed the rumor of up to 9 that is some serious overkill, even if half make it to their target...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kinglopey said:


> Why would Penitent Engines get the 6++ they aren't faithful or Sortias... they psychers or criminals being punished, similar to arco's but worse...
> 
> I must have missed the rumor of up to 9 that is some serious overkill, even if half make it to their target...


True but they might have it because they suck? Kinda like a free shitty version of the flickerfield all dark eldar vehicles can get.


----------



## Kinglopey

MadCowCrazy said:


> True but they might have it because they suck? Kinda like a free shitty version of the flickerfield all dark eldar vehicles can get.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to turn down a free Inv Save... LOL... Not even one I'd have to throw a few pts into...

I've got 6 Engines, wanted to get another 3 but they're hard to come by, E-bay's usually only got "Master Painted" engines for over $100... I did get a good deal on 3, just have to keep my eyes open...

I really am looking foward to the WDex release if only because the models should be available again... I love the WH vehicles... The decorative bits were great...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have 9 engines I'm going to sell, hmm, maybe I should put up all my SoB metal stuff for sale as I just can't stand metal.
Everything is still in boxes, I've only take some of it out and put on bases for a few games. I've removed mold lines from some kits but not much more than that.


----------



## SilverTabby

Sisters wouldn't use Witch-bullets. Psychically charged bullets havebeen sullied by psykers.

And its not flaming ducks, it's Krullian Flying Flaming Ponies :wink:


----------



## Katie Drake

Like I said earlier in this thread (I think it was this one at least...), Sisters may have the same upgrade under a different name. Blessed Ammunition exists currently in the Witch Hunter Codex and it would be easy for GW to make Blesssed Ammunition have the same rules as the Grey Knight psybolts.

Use your imaginations, guys.


----------



## TheSpore

Katie Drake said:


> Like I said earlier in this thread (I think it was this one at least...), Sisters may have the same upgrade under a different name. Blessed Ammunition exists currently in the Witch Hunter Codex and it would be easy for GW to make Blesssed Ammunition have the same rules as the Grey Knight psybolts.
> 
> Use your imaginations, guys.


imaginantion whats that?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> imaginantion whats that?


When I try to express mine....


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> imaginantion whats that?


I think it tastes purple?


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> I think it tastes purple?


funny you say purple Thats exactly the main color of my sisters army


----------



## Shandathe

TheSpore said:


> funny you say purple Thats exactly the main color of my sisters army


Pics or it didn't happen


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> Pics or it didn't happen


You Don't wanna see what they look like right now they are all kinds of jacked up, but I am gonna begin the resurection process very soon. By soon I mean like tomorrow


----------



## Moriarty

TheSpore said:


> but I am gonna begin the resurection process very soon. By soon I mean like tomorrow


Tomorrow, tomorrow and tomorrow's tomorrow.


----------



## Shandathe

Serve the Emperor *today* for tomorrow you may be dead!


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> Serve the Emperor *today* for tomorrow you may be dead!


Well I would start today but my whole sisters army is in Virginia Beach. I live damn near Washington DC during the week.


----------



## Maidel

TheSpore said:


> Well I would start today but my whole sisters army is in Virginia Beach. I live damn near Washington DC during the week.


And?


Sheesh, it just shows an utter lack of committment.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> funny you say purple Thats exactly the main color of my sisters army


I'm shooting for bone armor and red cloth myself [Boltgun accents and trim], though I may tweak it a little. I'm still working on the test model at the moment.

Only 6 weeks to go to see what was put into August's White Dwarf!

That seems like forever when you're dying to see what's been done to an army.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> That seems like forever when you're dying to see what's been done to an army.


And then its a 50/50 chance you wish it had never been printed. :grin:


----------



## ashikenshin

I want to paint my sisters like the protectorate colors from Warmachine. That way I can include whatever cool stuff they have in there and use it as a count as   and paint it the normal protectorate colors since I like them Oh so much.


----------



## Zion

Maidel said:


> And then its a 50/50 chance you wish it had never been printed. :grin:


You must have missed how fast I was screaming "FAKE" when that the WD leak hit. I was positively livid. I've calmed down since then but I'm still dreading seeing what those pages bring. 

Needless to say I'm reserving my hatred for when I actually see it. I wonder how more many millions of dead Sisters the fluff will add to the body count. I swear they have use die like Guardsmen every time we appear.


----------



## TheSpore

Zion said:


> I'm shooting for bone armor and red cloth myself [Boltgun accents and trim], though I may tweak it a little. I'm still working on the test model at the moment.
> 
> Only 6 weeks to go to see what was put into August's White Dwarf!
> 
> That seems like forever when you're dying to see what's been done to an army.


I almost went that direction with them and ive tested some other idea lately and none of which have swayed me away from my original scheme so Im just stick with that and do what hollywood does and reboot them.

For the record I will be committing my time towards both The Soulless and my SoBs which I have so noteble dubbed the Forgotten. (no they arnt chaos ladies though I considered making them vampires).

My original fluff back in the day when I had no flippin imagination was that at Santuary 101 the sisters were having akegger and invited the necrons. A fight broke out which turned into an all out war. Not gonna use that retardedness again


----------



## Shandathe

Zion, whatever else you do, I'd suggest against doing what I'm doing. Martyred Lady scheme looks striking, but the Blood Red is an utter BITCH of a paint in terms of using it as a base color, especially over black undercoat. 

And that's after trying several non-GW Blood-Red-like paints as well. I've no idea how Ferrari does it, though I'm guessing that having it done by robot makes the sheer amount of layers needed easier to stomach.


----------



## Maidel

Want suggestions as to how to do blood red?

And just having a quick look the martyred lady has very little red in it - bloody rose is the red one.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> I almost went that direction with them and ive tested some other idea lately and none of which have swayed me away from my original scheme so Im just stick with that and do what hollywood does and reboot them.
> 
> For the record I will be committing my time towards both The Soulless and my SoBs which I have so noteble dubbed the Forgotten. (no they arnt chaos ladies though I considered making them vampires).
> 
> My original fluff back in the day when I had no flippin imagination was that at Santuary 101 the sisters were having akegger and invited the necrons. A fight broke out which turned into an all out war. Not gonna use that retardedness again


I'm shooting more for an Order that not only celebrates the sacrifices of their martyrs but seeks to emulate their examples. That way I'm completely in like with GW's fluff of "Okay....Sisters of Battle fluff...let's have them die...again" and giving them something more than being female Imperial Guard in Power Armor (like the Order's first Canonness dying while driving a Blesses Weapon through the heart of a Bloodthirster).



Shandathe said:


> Zion, whatever else you do, I'd suggest against doing what I'm doing. Martyred Lady scheme looks striking, but the Blood Red is an utter BITCH of a paint in terms of using it as a base color, especially over black undercoat.
> 
> And that's after trying several non-GW Blood-Red-like paints as well. I've no idea how Ferrari does it, though I'm guessing that having it done by robot makes the sheer amount of layers needed easier to stomach.


I'm looking at starting with Mechanicus Red and blending it up to Blood Red for the highlights by mixing the two in different ratios and layering each progressively. I think the minimum I'd need to get a decent look would be about 7 layers (adjusting the ratios from pure Mechanicus to 3:1, to 2:1 to 1:1, to 1:2, to 1:3 to pure Blood Red). I could double that by doing the same with Blazing Orange for my highlights but I'd probably go insane....er.

I've played with using Washes to effect how the color looks but I don't really like the end result. I'm tempted to do wet blending, but I've got no real practice with it so that might be too hard for me to pull off.


----------



## Shandathe

Sure. Mind you, my complaint isn't so much that I can't make it look good, I've got a handle on that. I want a variety of Blood Red that doesn't take at least 2 layers (or 3, but that's only after a layer of Mechrite, it's a good 5 over black) before the color underneath stops shining through.


----------



## TheSpore

Maidel said:


> Want suggestions as to how to do blood red?
> 
> And just having a quick look the martyred lady has very little red in it - bloody rose is the red one.


Try mechrite red for the base then you can very easily move to blood red or you can build it up using a darker shade up to blood red 

Orange is nice choice of a highlight or even pink



Zion said:


> I'm shooting more for an Order that not only celebrates the sacrifices of their martyrs but seeks to emulate their examples. That way I'm completely in like with GW's fluff of "Okay....Sisters of Battle fluff...let's have them die...again" and giving them something more than being female Imperial Guard in Power Armor (like the Order's first Canonness dying while driving a Blesses Weapon through the heart of a Bloodthirster).


I always liked the idea of an order that is secret and no one speaks of because of something very odd that they do which why I considered the whole vampire type idea. They wouldn't be corrupted by chaos but say the planet thye are from might have a virus or disiese that makes them have to drink blood to sustain them and the atmoshpere makes them very senstive to solar rays


----------



## Maidel

Shandathe said:


> Sure. Mind you, my complaint isn't so much that I can't make it look good, I've got a handle on that. I want a variety of Blood Red that doesn't take at least 2 layers (or 3, but that's only after a layer of Mechrite, it's a good 5 over black) before the color underneath stops shining through.


I use a white undercoat for pretty much all models.

But this works for white or black.

examples:


----------



## Maidel

TheSpore said:


> Try mechrite red for the base then you can very easily move to blood red or you can build it up using a darker shade up to blood red
> 
> Orange is nice choice of a highlight or even pink


 
Heh - I was offering suggestions, not asking for them. :grin:


----------



## Shandathe

Looking at the advice posted by TheSpore and Maidel both and comparing it to what I posted as already doing, I can only conclude I'm being told to accept it and suffer in silence


----------



## Maidel

Shandathe said:


> Looking at the advice posted by TheSpore and Maidel both and comparing it to what I posted as already doing, I can only conclude I'm being told to accept it and suffer in silence


Far from it - I only use 1 coat of blood red.


White (Black)

Scab red (or mechite red if done over black)

Brown ink

scab red

Red Gore

Blood red.


----------



## TheSpore

anytime I use red over black i always start with mechrite red unless im goin darker then I start with brown and then a coat of P3 sanguine base.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is some awesome to pass the time


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

:shok: (2:55 video 1) I want a chainsword like that!

The Repentia looked nice, but that was not a legal model. According to WYSIWYG, that was not an Eviscerator :crazy:


----------



## Shandathe

These people take their cosplay seriously...


----------



## Katie Drake

Shandathe said:


> These people take their cosplay seriously...


Is there any other way?


----------



## Shandathe

...

That depends.

Google for "Sailor Bubba" and tell me whether you think he's taking it seriously :biggrin:


----------



## gen.ahab

Good God, was that singing? If that was, I wasn't aware a human being could even create such an annoying noise. It was like they were trying to rape my ear drums. 

Nice work on the costumes though.

EDIT: Though, to be fair, that could just be the recording device.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Inquisitor_Win said:


> :shok: (2:55 video 1) I want a chainsword like that!
> 
> The Repentia looked nice, but that was not a legal model. According to WYSIWYG, that was not an Eviscerator :crazy:


Yeah, one of them even had hair and Repentia shave their heads!!! GASP!!!


----------



## Purge the Heretic

> None of what I said actually HAS to be true, it's just what I told. I'd be happy with new plastic sets, I just wanted to make people aware of the possibility that they may not be out that soon.
> (referring to plastics with WD release ie not happening)
> 
> Not far away as in not that far away. Remember Warriors of Chaos, who had a WD List for about 6 months?
> (referring to when a full codex will follow the WD...approximately)


-Bramgaunt


----------



## Kettu

Heretic Purger, could you please point out where in Netsville this came from?

[EDIT]Doesn't matter. I found it[/EDIT]

I was unaware Gaunt was a rumourmonger to tell the truth. I haven't got a clue if what he said is really even a rumour or just a statement of opinion


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Bramgaunt goes by many names....he's been reliable for me in the past.


----------



## Shandathe

Jives with what we know - models are unlikely to be ready short of Jes becoming a god - and what we hope - WDex won't last too long.


----------



## Zion

I don't think this counts as a rumor but it does make an interesting point (SOURCE):



The Madman said:


> Its going to be just like the warriors of chaos WD codex, its a temp fix for a codex that shared/had similar unit to a codex that has been updated. there probably won't be any new models until the new codex is released. its what happens when two codexs share/have simliar units to each other and one gets updated, the other gets a temp list till the next book is out.
> 
> anyway it'll only be like six months to the release of the proper one.


I think he makes a good point. When Chaos Warriors lost the combined Chaos codex and their stuff was whisked away to a new codex, GW gave them a White Dwarf codex instead of an Errata, so I feel this maybe why it's being done. Honestly that makes me feel a lot better about the situation.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, if this is true then Sisters would be the first release next year. It kinda does make sense as we've heard allot of conflicting rumours about the SoB codex release, some said this year and some said first codex next year. It might just have been because the rumour sources didn't know there would be a WD update and vice versa.

Then again why would GW make a WD update if the real codex is just 6 months away? It's really hard to place the Sisters right now as there are rumours about plastic kits but would GW release some with a WD update and if the dex was just 6 months away why bother?

From what I remember there were some releases with the Blood Angels WD update weren't there? I guess a 5 sister box would make sense for a WD update? Question is price point, will the still be the most expensive army in 40k? Will I really have to buy 20 boxes to get a 100 sister strong army?


----------



## KhainiteAssassin

gen.ahab said:


> Good God, was that singing? If that was, I wasn't aware a human being could even create such an annoying noise. It was like they were trying to rape my ear drums.
> 
> Nice work on the costumes though.
> 
> EDIT: Though, to be fair, that could just be the recording device.


the song she was singing is one i liked. but that was just a TERRIBLE singer.





 skip to 1:10 for the song to really start. its a good song when done with the Black Symphony. the video's sound is abit off but.


----------



## fox-light713

Zion said:


> I don't think this counts as a rumor but it does make an interesting point (SOURCE):
> 
> 
> 
> I think he makes a good point. When Chaos Warriors lost the combined Chaos codex and their stuff was whisked away to a new codex, GW gave them a White Dwarf codex instead of an Errata, so I feel this maybe why it's being done. Honestly that makes me feel a lot better about the situation.





MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, if this is true then Sisters would be the first release next year. It kinda does make sense as we've heard allot of conflicting rumours about the SoB codex release, some said this year and some said first codex next year. It might just have been because the rumour sources didn't know there would be a WD update and vice versa.
> 
> Then again why would GW make a WD update if the real codex is just 6 months away? It's really hard to place the Sisters right now as there are rumours about plastic kits but would GW release some with a WD update and if the dex was just 6 months away why bother?
> 
> From what I remember there were some releases with the Blood Angels WD update weren't there? I guess a 5 sister box would make sense for a WD update? Question is price point, will the still be the most expensive army in 40k? Will I really have to buy 20 boxes to get a 100 sister strong army?



Well It might be a bit of a stretch but if the SoB codex is amongst the codexes for next year going off of the Warriors of Chaos of when they got a wd then a full codex. Along with rumors of the 6th ed coming out next summer possibly coming out with GW's 25th anniversary. The 6th ed starter box could be SoB vs Necrons for a remake of Sanctuary 101. Though the chances of that happening are so small it probably won't happen. Just some thoughts and brain storming, though i could be looking into it to hard.


----------



## Grogbart

A few questions on the WD Fantasy comparison. 
Did I get right, there was a combined Book, which got split and one fraction got its own Book while those chaotic warriors got a WD, till they got their own book too, some six months later? 

Did it also take nearly half a year between the release of the book that initiated the split and the WD for the Chaos warriors? 
(GK April -> finished SoB WD September)


----------



## Azezel

On the 16th of this month, someone in Canada modified the 40k codex page of Wikipeadia to say that Codex: sisters of Battle would be released in august or September.

That's about as weak as a rumour can get and still count as a rumour, right?


----------



## The Sullen One

Grogbart said:


> A few questions on the WD Fantasy comparison.
> Did I get right, there was a combined Book, which got split and one fraction got its own Book while those chaotic warriors got a WD, till they got their own book too, some six months later?
> 
> Did it also take nearly half a year between the release of the book that initiated the split and the WD for the Chaos warriors?
> (GK April -> finished SoB WD September)


What happened was that there used to be a Hordes of Chaos book which covered warriors, marauders and daemons. However when the Daemons of Chaos book was released, Hordes become invalid, so in White Dwarf 342, they released a get you by list before the Warriors of Chaos codex was released five months later.

However that get you by list was released only a month after Daemons of Chaos came out, whereas it's been two and a half months at least since Codex: Grey Knights hit the shelves. Given that it'll be at least August before we see this Sisters WD codex, it seems unlikely it's just a get you by list, though I'm hoping that's the case.


----------



## Zion

The Sullen One said:


> What happened was that there used to be a Hordes of Chaos book which covered warriors, marauders and daemons. However when the Daemons of Chaos book was released, Hordes become invalid, so in White Dwarf 342, they released a get you by list before the Warriors of Chaos codex was released five months later.
> 
> However that get you by list was released only a month after Daemons of Chaos came out, whereas it's been two and a half months at least since Codex: Grey Knights hit the shelves. Given that it'll be at least August before we see this Sisters WD codex, it seems unlikely it's just a get you by list, though I'm hoping that's the case.


Huh. I knew the general history but not the actual timeline. Good to know. Thanks.

I know it's not 100% likely but I can't rule it out since GW has to work with the fact that the last White Dwarf codex was not well recieved and the White Dwarf's popularity and overall reception isn't as high as it used to be that GW probably had to take some time to make sure this WD-dex was at least decent, and that the White Dwarf option would work the best.

At least assuming that they took so long because they forgot about the shared units until the eight million questions if Codex: Witch Hunters was getting updated to use the new Assasain, Arco-flagellants, Henchmen, and Inquisitor stats.


----------



## TheSpore

Personally Im a lil stoked about a WD dex coming, but I have an issue with it as well because I kind of would rather had just waited until they redid the whole line and gave them a actual proper codex release.


----------



## Grogbart

Thanks Sullen One!

So, last release Sisters were mixed into the Inquisition to promote some Inquisitor game.
And this time (to me it seems), they are used as guinea pigs in an experiment to bring back some meaning into White Dwarf (aka: to sell more).

The only thing that keeps me from thinking, GW is deliberately trying to annoy SoB players, is, that I don't deem them capable of developing or realizing a plan, as well thought out and sophisticated as that!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

fox-light713 said:


> The 6th ed starter box could be SoB vs Necrons for a remake of Sanctuary 101.


This will not happen as one of the voices in my head says it has seen the starter set and it's Black Templars vs Chaos Daemons.



Azezel said:


> On the 16th of this month, someone in Canada modified the 40k codex page of Wikipeadia to say that Codex: sisters of Battle would be released in august or September.
> 
> That's about as weak as a rumour can get and still count as a rumour, right?


Well it has pretty much been confirmed that we will get the WD update in August and September. Once the WD arrives this week or next we will know for sure if Sisters will indeed be in the Aug and Sep WDs.


----------



## Shandathe

Grogbart said:


> The only thing that keeps me from thinking, GW is deliberately trying to annoy SoB players, is, that I don't deem them capable of developing or realizing a plan, as well thought out and sophisticated as that!


Annoy? I've always thought it was an experiment in despair more than annoyance


----------



## Doelago

I dont want a Sisters Codex in White Dwarf... Or not on the pages of it... I mean, I would be happy if they included a separate booklet which is the Codex with the magazine itself, but I dont want it to be in the middle of the pages of a magazine that I want to see filled with bollocks, adverts and battle reports. 

I mean, the WD version is like free for all intents and purposes, but I would prefer to pay 20€ for a proper codex.


----------



## Creon

Wait a month after the 2nd WD and it'll be a PDF.


----------



## Grogbart

Shandathe said:


> Annoy? I've always thought it was an experiment in despair more than annoyance


To be honest 'annoy' was just a substitute I settled on, after I coudn't find a suitably vulgar translation of the German 'verarschen' during the heat of the rant. 
I found some suggestions now, but they all seem to miss the spot.
Is there something above "to fool sb." in terms of vulgarity, without resorting to linguistic excrement?


----------



## Shandathe

Meh, some vituperation is good for the soul.

And doelago, I've said something like that before... Agree 100%


----------



## SilverTabby

fox-light713 said:


> Well It might be a bit of a stretch but if the SoB codex is amongst the codexes for next year going off of the Warriors of Chaos of when they got a wd then a full codex. Along with rumors of the 6th ed coming out next summer possibly coming out with GW's 25th anniversary. The 6th ed starter box could be SoB vs Necrons for a remake of Sanctuary 101. Though the chances of that happening are so small it probably won't happen. Just some thoughts and brain storming, though i could be looking into it to hard.


If the Dex was coming out to coincide with GWs 25th anniversary, we'd've all been very happy bunnies years ago... :wink:


----------



## Doelago

Shandathe said:


> And doelago, I've said something like that before... Agree 100%


Aah, then you must also want to join on a quick visit to the GW headquarters? 

The Sisters want to burn something, and I wont deny them their joy.


----------



## Shandathe

Mhmm. I'll bring the torches if you bring the pitchforks.


----------



## Doelago

Shandathe said:


> Mhmm. I'll bring the torches if you bring the pitchforks.


Deal. 

Let the fun begin.


----------



## Oz Tra Ya

> Well it has pretty much been confirmed that we will get the WD update in August and September. Once the WD arrives this week or next we will know for sure if Sisters will indeed be in the Aug and Sep WDs.


The Australian edition of White Dwarf 379 (July) turned up in my mailbox today, it says on the inside back cover (bottom left corner)...

CODEX: SISTERS OF BATTLE
Exclusively in the next issue of White Dwarf, we present the first part of Codex: Sisters of Battle. You will find the background and the bestiary for the devoted warriors of the Ecclesiarchy.


The magazine also has a Cities of Death (40K) article with some official new stratagems, including one for Sisters of Battle on pg 87 (top right corner)...


*Sisters of Battle: Consecrated Shrine*

_Key Building Stratagem_

The shrine houses a relic of great importance. The Sisters of Battle will stop at nothing to protect this revered artefact, finding fresh reservoirs of faith to call upon and defeat their foes.

* Any Sisters of Battle units within a Consecrated Shrine count as having a Simulacrim Imperialis. In addition, if a Sisters of Battle unit within the building successfully makes an Act of Faith, roll a D6: on a roll of a 5 or 6 your army immediately gains a Faith point (see next issue for more details).


No Sisters of Battle pictured anywhere in the issue either, in case anyone was wondering.


----------



## Zion

Oz Tra Ya said:


> The Australian edition of White Dwarf 379 (July) turned up in my mailbox today, it says on the inside back cover (bottom left corner)...
> 
> CODEX: SISTERS OF BATTLE
> Exclusively in the next issue of White Dwarf, we present the first part of Codex: Sisters of Battle. You will find the background and the bestiary for the devoted warriors of the Ecclesiarchy.
> 
> 
> The magazine also has a Cities of Death (40K) article with some official new stratagems, including one for Sisters of Battle on pg 87 (top right corner)...
> 
> 
> *Sisters of Battle: Consecrated Shrine*
> 
> _Key Building Stratagem_
> 
> The shrine houses a relic of great importance. The Sisters of Battle will stop at nothing to protect this revered artefact, finding fresh reservoirs of faith to call upon and defeat their foes.
> 
> * Any Sisters of Battle units within a Consecrated Shrine count as having a Simulacrim Imperialis. In addition, if a Sisters of Battle unit within the building successfully makes an Act of Faith, roll a D6: on a roll of a 5 or 6 your army immediately gains a Faith point (see next issue for more details).
> 
> 
> No Sisters of Battle pictured anywhere in the issue either, in case anyone was wondering.


Huh. 5+ to GAIN Faith Points? Interesting.

Now if someone could just get their hands on White Dwarfs 380 and 381 a little early I'd be happy (or at least my curiosity would be satisfied).

EDIT: I'm glad to hear that the Sisters are getting some kind of Cities of Death addition. I'm really hoping we get a neat looking kit for that too. If not I'm sure I could get some of the existing kit stuff (and flooring sections) to make something I guess.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

What I find interesting is that the simalcrum imperialis still exists in the WD dex...


----------



## Kinglopey

Well the WD Dex does come out a month later... the description of the Cities of Death Stratagem seem a bit odd with the D6 per Faithful unit rumor, it would be pretty stupid and a slap in the face if this Cities of Death Stratagem is invalidated next month with the WD Dex...


----------



## Zion

Purge the Heretic said:


> What I find interesting is that the simalcrum imperialis still exists in the WD dex...


Me too. I think it means that either the Simalcrum Imperialis changes something regarding how faith is used (like rolling an extra die, like it does now or some other positive effect for having it) or makes it easier for us to gain faith points (perhaps increasing the number of dice rolled to determine the size of the pool?).

I've got a theory regarding the faith system but I've got no real backing for it. Needless to say our current understanding of it may end up being wrong due to the lack of the full information.

I'd actually be pleasently suprised if everything we need to play the new army is in one White Dwarf issue and some hobby articles, or new fluff or similiar fun stuff is in the other. Especially if it's Rules then Fluff for the release order.


----------



## Shandathe

How about: Build an arbitrary number of Faith points over the course of the game and your Canoness is Raptured! :biggrin:


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> How about: Build an arbitrary number of Faith points over the course of the game and your Canoness is Raptured! :biggrin:


Let me guess, she becomes a living saint who gains wings, a lance shooting ability (that auto-hits, pens and explodes anything she looks at) that is assault 6 (can be fired at different targets), and Holy Rage along with a 2++, and she doesn't get a points adjustment from now?

Wait....Cruddance is writing the codex, not Ward. That won't happen.


----------



## Shandathe

With our luck, it'd probably mean 'taken off the board and allowed to join a better army'


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> With our luck, it'd probably mean 'taken off the board and allowed to join a better army'


Removed from the game and gives all local Grey Knight armies a 2++ against Daemons for the rest of the game?


----------



## hungryugolino

Hm...that is about the only way GW could screw the Sisters over. Random roll-based disappearances of your units to "balance" Faith...


----------



## Shandathe

hungryugolino said:


> Hm...that is about the only way GW could screw the Sisters over. Random roll-based disappearances of your units to "balance" Faith...


You are *so* underestimating GW's creative minds.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> With our luck, it'd probably mean 'taken off the board and allowed to join a better army'


I'd give you rep but have already give you


----------



## mahavira

Adepta Sororitas Special Rule: Favoured Prey: Sisters of Battle must reroll successful armor saves against any attack by a Blood Angel.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> Adepta Sororitas Special Rule: Favoured Prey: Sisters of Battle must reroll successful armor saves against any attack by *any Space Marine, regardless of chapter.*


Fixed it for you.

EDIT: Between the small scraps of information we've gotten (which I'm starting to think more and more that some of this _MIGHT_ be intentional. There is a lot of highly specific information. And if GW is clamping down on what they're admitting too, and only relying on fan-hype (since we're known for getting into a frenzy over what color dice that are coming out next month) and SMALL teasers (like the Cities of Death thing) I will admit that the time waiting just to LOOK AT August's White Dwarf is going to be torture for me and I'll be spending even MORE time searching here and other places on the net (already got a Google Search saved that checks for "Sisters of Battle" rumors that are 24 hours or less old) than I do now just to see if we can get something concrete.

This is the first time I've had a chance to be excited to see what's coming next so I hope I don't end up feeling victimized later (don't get me wrong, I'm still expecting wallet-rape from GW and broken hearts but if this codex is at minimum _playable_ I'll be pretty happy in the end).

ADDITIONAL EDIT: How is it with all the news on what's coming in terms of Sisters models and kits we haven't gotten one picture of SOMETHING that people have claimed to see? I'd love to at least to see a blurry cellphone camera picture of one of these neat little detail bits we've heard about (like the lace on the boots or the new Sister's heads). Anyone else?


----------



## mahavira

Zion said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> EDIT: Between the small scraps of information we've gotten (which I'm starting to think more and more that some of this _MIGHT_ be intentional. There is a lot of highly specific information. And if GW is clamping down on what they're admitting too, and only relying on fan-hype (since we're known for getting into a frenzy over what color dice that are coming out next month) and SMALL teasers (like the Cities of Death thing) I will admit that the time waiting just to LOOK AT August's White Dwarf is going to be torture for me and I'll be spending even MORE time searching here and other places on the net (already got a Google Search saved that checks for "Sisters of Battle" rumors that are 24 hours or less old) than I do now just to see if we can get something concrete.
> 
> This is the first time I've had a chance to be excited to see what's coming next so I hope I don't end up feeling victimized later (don't get me wrong, I'm still expecting wallet-rape from GW and broken hearts but if this codex is at minimum _playable_ I'll be pretty happy in the end).
> 
> ADDITIONAL EDIT: How is it with all the news on what's coming in terms of Sisters models and kits we haven't gotten one picture of SOMETHING that people have claimed to see? I'd love to at least to see a blurry cellphone camera picture of one of these neat little detail bits we've heard about (like the lace on the boots or the new Sister's heads). Anyone else?


You're assuming it's actually ready. If there were any meaningful number of miniatures ready, we wouldn't be getting a white dwarf 'dex. I'll bet we get a couple of finecast and that's it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> You're assuming it's actually ready. If there were any meaningful number of miniatures ready, we wouldn't be getting a white dwarf 'dex. I'll bet we get a couple of finecast and that's it.


The only thing I'm expceting is maybe those old Kyrinov and Uriaha guy being turned into finecast. I dont expect them to even make the canoness into finecast.


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> The only thing I'm expceting is maybe those old Kyrinov and Uriaha guy being turned into finecast. I dont expect them to even make the canoness into finecast.


Seraphim: they'd at least benefit from it. They'd be light enough they wouldn't tip over so badly.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> You're assuming it's actually ready. If there were any meaningful number of miniatures ready, we wouldn't be getting a white dwarf 'dex. I'll bet we get a couple of finecast and that's it.


I'm not assuming anything. I was purely stating that based on the number of different people online who claimed to have seen physical sprues of plastic sisters you think we'd have at least a blurry cellphone picture by now, and I'd love to see it if such a thing existed.

I'm not hedging my bets either way on the models. I'm hoping for a plastic release but can wait if need be. I've got a fair number of models (though my points count for what I own will surely adjust with the new dex) and can wait for plastics. When they hit I'll be building/painting those a unit at a time to swap out with what I got (which I'll save for really big games and Apoc).

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate our current models outside of their rather boyish jaws and Madonna-esk traffic-cone chests. If anything I want the new kits so I can have a characterful Sisters army of posed models and the ability to paint down in the hard to reach sections without frustration since parts of the current models make fine detail work very hard.


----------



## JaqTaar

Zion said:


> ... number of different people online who claimed to have seen physical sprues of plastic sisters...


Was that actually the claim? I seem to remember that only some models had been spotted, but not actual finished sprues.


----------



## Grogbart

I'm still baffled as to what GW is trying to achieve with this WDex. There has to be a plan behind it, even if its only an experimental one!
(Assuming its a WD with no new models)

Trying to sell the old metal models would be a blatant act of desperation, especially after just starting those finecasts.

Releasing Finecasts of current Sisters and trying to counter even less sales caused by cost increase. Why bother now, Sisters have been neglected long enough to not make a difference.

Just to say all 3rd Eds have been updated. Poor excuse, but not to be counted out, according to my picture of GW!

Just to sell some WDs?

To work out the exact relation on whats more damaging to sales, no plastics or no current rules?


There are so many things to consider and since its GW, you can't even rule most of them out for being stupid!!!

But being a hopless optimist, I also have a dream:
GW take SoB seriously and have come up with a really really brilliant idea for the Sisters and faith, with 6th Ed in mind. The only thing is they can not make that concept work in 5th Ed. In addition to this models will take a little longer than anticipated and thus it was decided to postpone SoB to 6th Ed. But since people working on the SoB are so exited about them, they seized the opportunity presented by the WD-Resurrection-Plan, to put some of their leftover ideas into a WDex and try out some Sister-Player-Preferance details, relevant to putting a final touch on the upcoming Codex.

I know this one has two major flaws in the first sentence alone ('SoB taken serious' and 'GW having a brilliant idea'). But what else is there besides thinking: 
'New SoB rules with minimal to no model releases, might be the perfect time to sell my Sister army'!?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Got my WD today, gotta love this line:

"Codex: Sisters of Battle

Exclusively in the next issue of White Dwarf, we present the first part of Codex: Sisters of Battle. You will find the background and the bestiary for the devoted warriors of the Ecclesiarchy."

Exclusively? Just to make sure we dont think Unseen Lurker would contain the Sisters codex or the local news paper?

GW WD writer1: How can we make it seem more exiting so people forget the fact they will be receiving a watered down place holder codex while we update another SM codex instead?
GW WD writer2: Just make the article "Exclusive" to WD!
GW WD writer1: But isn't it that anyway?
GW WD writer2:


----------



## aboytervigon

Meh I'd like to see the rules for the penitent cause I entered in in cheese's cup for LOl's.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm curious about the rules for Sister Repentia and Penitent Engines as those are my favourite units in 40k. I really hope they become viable!


----------



## Shandathe

So do I. Moreover, I hope everything else REMAINS that way.


----------



## Azezel

fox-light713 said:


> The 6th ed starter box could be SoB vs Necrons for a remake of Sanctuary 101. Though the chances of that happening are so small it probably won't happen. Just some thoughts and brain storming, though i could be looking into it to hard.


I promised to let MadCowCrazy have his way with me if that happened, and even that would not completely spoil my elation.

Never happen, though.


----------



## Shandathe

Massacre at Santcuary 101? Well, Assault on Black Reach already gave the SM a 100 point or so advantage... In that spirit, I'm sure they could fit a Monolith into that box somehow.


----------



## Azezel

The bx has cut-out dotted lines printed on the inside so you can make it into a papercraft Monolith*

And since the original Massacre at Sanctuuary 101 gave the 'crons a full 1'000 point advantage, one Monolith would actually be an improvement.

I'd still be happy to see that as the starter kit, though.


*Actually, that's not a bad idea, in all serriousness. Why shouldn't the next starter box have dotted lines to cut out and make some terrain, or a proxy vehicle?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> *Actually, that's not a bad idea, in all serriousness. Why shouldn't the next starter box have dotted lines to cut out and make some terrain, or a proxy vehicle?


Because then GW wouldn't be able to sell their plastic terrain and they would put ideas into ppls minds that you can actually get terrain without buying it from GW.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Massacre at Santcuary 101? Well, Assault on Black Reach already gave the SM a 100 point or so advantage... In that spirit, I'm sure they could fit a Monolith into that box somehow.


What, no Megalith?*





*For those who never saw it, Beasts of War had a April Fool's video detailing this (imaginary) monstrosity on YouTube. It's no longer available due to BoW's account being removed from YouTube and the video not being reposted.


----------



## Shandathe

... Actually, they're already at 'vehicle'. The Dread in AOBR classifies for that section of the rulebook.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> ... Actually, they're already at 'vehicle'. The Dread in AOBR classifies for that section of the rulebook.


It's been nice if the Orks had gotten a Killa Kan or three to balance that out too.

But they're not at "tank" yet. Granted 60-75% of the tanks in the game are built around either the Rhino or Chimera chassis so it wouldn't be hard to slip some sprues in these days. Just need a slightly bigger box (and price tag).

Or......they could make a special quick assemble Rhino (comes in three parts, two half-hulls and a top plate and it's done!). That'd be amusing.


----------



## mahavira

Grogbart said:


> I'm still baffled as to what GW is trying to achieve with this WDex. There has to be a plan behind it, even if its only an experimental one!
> (Assuming its a WD with no new models)
> 
> Trying to sell the old metal models would be a blatant act of desperation, especially after just starting those finecasts.
> 
> Releasing Finecasts of current Sisters and trying to counter even less sales caused by cost increase. Why bother now, Sisters have been neglected long enough to not make a difference.
> 
> Just to say all 3rd Eds have been updated. Poor excuse, but not to be counted out, according to my picture of GW!
> 
> Just to sell some WDs?
> 
> To work out the exact relation on whats more damaging to sales, no plastics or no current rules?
> 
> 
> There are so many things to consider and since its GW, you can't even rule most of them out for being stupid!!!
> 
> But being a hopless optimist, I also have a dream:
> GW take SoB seriously and have come up with a really really brilliant idea for the Sisters and faith, with 6th Ed in mind. The only thing is they can not make that concept work in 5th Ed. In addition to this models will take a little longer than anticipated and thus it was decided to postpone SoB to 6th Ed. But since people working on the SoB are so exited about them, they seized the opportunity presented by the WD-Resurrection-Plan, to put some of their leftover ideas into a WDex and try out some Sister-Player-Preferance details, relevant to putting a final touch on the upcoming Codex.
> 
> I know this one has two major flaws in the first sentence alone ('SoB taken serious' and 'GW having a brilliant idea'). But what else is there besides thinking:
> 'New SoB rules with minimal to no model releases, might be the perfect time to sell my Sister army'!?


More likely reason: they have said that every army is to be updated prior to the release of 6th edition, but either the timelines don't work (perhaps relating to technical difficulties on the models that Jess Goodwin has referred to) or they just don't want to do the work involved in an actual update to certain armies, and they really don't want to back off on the boast. I mean really, the codex is the easiest part of the process. I'm half of a mind to write Standard Bearer to demand an explanation, but I suspect any answer would translate roughly to "be glad we allocated any time and resources to your third rate army when we would have gotten better profit and pleased more fans by applying it to redoing Black Templars, Dark Angels, or Chaos Marines. Complain any more and we'll have Matt Ward and Sandy Mitchell collaborate on a SoB novel."


----------



## Shandathe

mahavira said:


> Complain any more and we'll have Matt Ward and Sandy Mitchell collaborate on a SoB novel."


As long as Matt Ward handles the relative strengths of the people involved in fights, and Sandy handles the actual writing, that honestly sounds like it might be BEAUTIFUL. :laugh:


----------



## Kettu

To further drift off topic (Please tell me when we get back to topic) in a rhetorical (and mythological) S101 starter set which side would be the Swarm and which the well trained few?
Rumours have both Sisters and Necrons becomming more Horde like in their function.


----------



## sybarite

Shandathe said:


> As long as Matt Ward handles the relative strengths of the people involved in fights, and Sandy handles the actual writing, that honestly sounds like it might be BEAUTIFUL. :laugh:


keep dreaming, it seems matt ward hates SoB for some reason. l think we can all name some case's where he has done this *cough* GK codex pure blood *cough*. Also Mat is rumour to be doing necron's l hope there not that short on staff there making one guy do every codex.


----------



## mahavira

Kettu said:


> To further drift off topic (Please tell me when we get back to topic) in a rhetorical (and mythological) S101 starter set which side would be the Swarm and which the well trained few?
> Rumours have both Sisters and Necrons becomming more Horde like in their function.


We'll presumably get back on topic when a new rumor comes out or the next WD comes out. As to horde vs trained few, if it's to be S101, it would make sense to have the necrons have the numbers as it looks more appropriate to have numberless hordes of metal skeletons advancing relentlessly against a ragged few defenders. It gives both sides a cool image to go with, as opposed to the Terminator in the Police Station look of a few necrons slaughtering bunches of sisters - great for necrons, not so much for sisters.



sybarite said:


> keep dreaming, it seems matt ward hates SoB for some reason. l think we can all name some case's where he has done this *cough* GK codex pure blood *cough*. Also Mat is rumour to be doing necron's l hope there not that short on staff there making one guy do every codex.


And Sandy Mitchell most definately hates sisters.


----------



## Kettu

sybarite said:


> l think we can all name some case's where he has done this


Don't forget the entire fluff sections of the 5th ed book wherein the Sisters recive two paragraphs, little over a hundred words, written about them.

And it was wrong.


----------



## sybarite

on a real note do we have any idea who is doing the rules for them yet?

it seem like SoB is the plague over at GW, nobody want's to touch or doing anything with them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sad thing is I'm guessing no one will receive an early WD like what happened this month, so we might actually have to wait for the dex to end up in our hands before we get to see the actual rules 

I'm looking forwards to this dex, I will be cutting the shit out of my WDs to save the pages for scanning and then proper printing. Sure a PDF will be coming but it's not like I save the WDs I have for anything.

The Necron codex will probably contain a 10 page slaughterfest about Sanctuary 101 where they go into detail about how the new Necron units completely and utterly annihilated the Sisters.

In the Victories of the Sisterhood section in the WD fluff section there will be just one line stating that with the combined firepower and faith of the 10 000 sisters at Sanctuary 101 they managed to destroy 1 Necron warrior, that then proceeded to successfully roll for Will Be Back...


----------



## Shandathe

sybarite said:


> on a real note do we have any idea who is doing the rules for them yet?


Robin Cruddace, I believe. I've seen that name come by more often than others, anyway.


----------



## Nuns With Guns Fan

I seriously doubt that there are any new models. People just do not wander through GW headquarters at their own will, especially not the development areas.

I do see a return of the squad boxes. But these will be a reissue of the current metal models in Finecast. I base this on the fact that pre-Finecast metal miniatures that were similarly packaged to the squad-sized boxes, i.e. Plague Marines and BT Sword Brethren, have had the same treatment.

I'm very much looking forward to the WD release. Not because I think the Sisters are a weak force...they work well even in 5th edition if wielded correctly. I'm only looking for an update to force organization costs. I don't expect GW to make them on par with BA or Wolves, or any of their other favorites, like Eldar. But I don't anticipate the rules being any worse. Just a process of learning how to play them.


----------



## Zion

Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> I seriously doubt that there are any new models. People just do not wander through GW headquarters at their own will, especially not the development areas.


Don't forget that the rumors regarding the models are coming from either sources that are known for working for/with GW (like Stickmonkey) or have been confirmed to work there by others who have a solid track record (ghost21). 

Actually if I recall correctly, ghost21 might actually be working in either packaging or with/near the plastic processing plant. He's said that he's seen the real codex already, and new models so it's really up in the air I guess.



Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> I do see a return of the squad boxes. But these will be a reissue of the current metal models in Finecast. I base this on the fact that pre-Finecast metal miniatures that were similarly packaged to the squad-sized boxes, i.e. Plague Marines and BT Sword Brethren, have had the same treatment.


Honestly, if this happens I won't be picking up any of the Finecast models of the Sisters. Redoing an existing mold in Finecast doesn't make for new models, it makes for the same models in different materials. And I'm waiting for new models before I start running around buying up large amounts of Sisters.



Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> I'm very much looking forward to the WD release. Not because I think the Sisters are a weak force...they work well even in 5th edition if wielded correctly. I'm only looking for an update to force organization costs. I don't expect GW to make them on par with BA or Wolves, or any of their other favorites, like Eldar. But I don't anticipate the rules being any worse. Just a process of learning how to play them.


That's the best we can hope for, and what I'm looking forward to as well.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> I'm very much looking forward to the WD release. Not because I think the Sisters are a weak force...they work well even in 5th edition if wielded correctly. I'm only looking for an update to force organization costs. I don't expect GW to make them on par with BA or Wolves, or any of their other favorites, like Eldar. But I don't anticipate the rules being any worse. Just a process of learning how to play them.


Welcome to the forums.
I agree that Sisters aren't that weak in 5E but that's only if you Immolator spam and that's the problem with the codex atm.
There are basically no options for you, you use 1-2 Canonesses with book, cloak, armour and either a blessed weapon or eviscerator. Then you spam 3 Celestians squads in Immolators, 3 Dominion squads in Immolators and 3 Exorcists. Throw in as much Melta as you can but keep the flamers on the Immolators. That's it, no more and no less. It works but it's quite boring.

What I'm hoping for is a reason to take Sister Repentia and Penitent engines, heck the Henchmen will cover the sisters lack of CC units but it all depends on how you can field them. If it's 1 squad per Confessor it will be quite meh unless it's true that the new Canoness sucks donkey balls. This would also mean that the Sisters need a SC that makes henchmen troops...

I hope confessors are like Haemonculi, that you can take 1-3 per HQ slot.

The Seraphim rumours sound really cool with assault 2 melta and flamers though if the hand flamers are the S3 versions that BA got then no one will take them.

I hope Retributors become good, if the Divine Guidance is now Rending and you can give them Blessed Ammo I would consider taking 4 Heavy Bolters, S5 Rending with no cover saves would be pretty good. I do hope they get something else as well though, like Assault Cannons or Auto Cannons.

When I wrote to Robin he replied that he agreed that sisters should not get plasma, lascannons or missile launchers. So at the least we can expect them not to become Brothers of Battle.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> So at the least we can expect them not to become Brothers of Battle.


Well at least until they get new models they will just be the drag queens of battle 

Sorry GW seems to have anissue with making feminine models (with the exception of lelith) I mean look at the DE wyches, tell me they don't look like drage queens.


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## KhainiteAssassin

TheSpore said:


> Well at least until they get new models they will just be the drag queens of battle
> 
> Sorry GW seems to have anissue with making feminine models (with the exception of lelith) I mean look at the DE wyches, tell me they don't look like drage queens.


well, its more that all the DE look like a mix between male and female, mostly because they are not as different for how their males and females look as, say, humans.


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## Nuns With Guns Fan

Sorry, no offense to the gentlemen supplying rumors of new models, but I do have to question the veracity of their claim for having access to the same. In this day and age when everyone carries phones which almost all have cameras, they can't get a shot of a frame...a codex cover? 

Second, given that GW is very intent on protecting their products, I seriously doubt that someone would jeopardize a job over posting some wishlistings on an internet site. Not only would someone lose their job for posting "secrets", but under an NDA, I would bet they would also face some stiff fining for breaking a contract.

As to their alleged "track records"...where is it? I've read where such attribution of rumor accuracy has been discounted. Remember one claim was that we would have real codex. And that has been proven incorrect so far, hasn't it? 

(Well, maybe not...not until I actually see the alleged WD purporting a covering of Sisters in August/September.)


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## Zion

Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> Sorry, no offense to the gentlemen supplying rumors of new models, but I do have to question the veracity of their claim for having access to the same. In this day and age when everyone carries phones which almost all have cameras, they can't get a shot of a frame...a codex cover?


Honestly I feel the same way about that, but that extends to all rumors, not just these. Then again things have been faked before too (see the 1 April "Sisters of Battle" test-dex shots that were faked).



Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> Second, given that GW is very intent on protecting their products, I seriously doubt that someone would jeopardize a job over posting some wishlistings on an internet site. Not only would someone lose their job for posting "secrets", but under an NDA, I would bet they would also face some stiff fining for breaking a contract.


You may remember the Grey Knights codex leak from a few months back where an employee lost his job due to releasing the entire playtest-dex online. 

The people who bring us these rumors do so because they play 40K too, and also can't stand GW's stance on not sharing information with it's customer base. An act of protest against something they don't agree with, I guess you could say. Agree with it or not, it's going to continue happening until GW is more open about what they're doing.



Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> As to their alleged "track records"...where is it? I've read where such attribution of rumor accuracy has been discounted. Remember one claim was that we would have real codex. And that has been proven incorrect so far, hasn't it?


They release information about a product in progress. Things change so it can invalidate some of the rumors (remember the Grey Knight's Warding Staves outcry? That changed before the actual codex released) but a a fair number of these sources have about 85%+ correct about the things they share. You'll have to do some digging to confirm how right they tend to be, but that's because they can't really just keep a resume about it all.



Nuns With Guns Fan said:


> (Well, maybe not...not until I actually see the alleged WD purporting a covering of Sisters in August/September.)


The White Dwarf codex is confirmed (I've seen about ten or so posts confirming that the back cover for next month's White Dwarf advertises the Sisters of Battle codex part one release). It's just a matter of time before we can see it.

Remember, these are just rumors. They can be right, they can be wrong but until the real deal comes out all we're doing is entertaining the possibility of what might end up being.


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## Grogbart

MadCowCrazy said:


> I do hope they get something else as well though, like Assault Cannons or Auto Cannons.
> 
> When I wrote to Robin he replied that he agreed that sisters should not get plasma, lascannons or missile launchers. So at the least we can expect them not to become Brothers of Battle.


I know its mostly a question of preference, but what is it exactly, that makes giving the Sisters Assault Cannons less space-marinating, than giving them Missile Launchers?
(Assault cannons being SM only / Missile Launchers not being much different from the Hunter-Killer Missiles SoB vehicles may equip)

If you ask me, either Sister should keep to their holy trinity with no exceptions (and create options though Faith and blessed this 'n that) or include other weapons throughout all the FOC.
I prefer the first but would also accept the second.
The worst for me, would be making just one or two exceptions to just one or two units (or something like the pistols only exception for plasma weapons they have now!)

What I'd like the Retributors to get, is the option for four heavy Flamers!

As for weapons additions for the Sisters, how about Sororitas-Pattern Grenade Launchers in addition with Combi-Grenade Launchers and some sort Heavy Grenade Lauchers for the Retributors. Would at least be something partially new, quite exclusive to the Sisters and (if you take the Missile Launchers stats for the Heavy Grenade Lancher only at 36 Inch Range) would even keep the lower range feel of the Sisters. And with Incediary- (or phosphor-) grenades also the purging feel!

This being only my opinion and some spontaneous Suggestions, as always!


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## Kettu

But even within the 'Holy Trinity' we could have Vulcan Mega Bolters, Volcano Canons and those massive anti-Titan Flamers at the upward end of the spectrum so it doesn't have to be just HBolters, HFlamers and MMeltas.

Could you imagine an tank with Twin-Linked Hellhound Flame Guns? (Forgot their names)
Long ranged Melta Artillery?

Holy Trinity just restricts if you want it to.


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## Zion

Grogbart said:


> I know its mostly a question of preference, but what is it exactly, that makes giving the Sisters Assault Cannons less space-marinating, than giving them Missile Launchers?
> (Assault cannons being SM only / Missile Launchers not being much different from the Hunter-Killer Missiles SoB vehicles may equip)
> 
> If you ask me, either Sister should keep to their holy trinity with no exceptions (and create options though Faith and blessed this 'n that) or include other weapons throughout all the FOC.
> I prefer the first but would also accept the second.
> The worst for me, would be making just one or two exceptions to just one or two units (or something like the pistols only exception for plasma weapons they have now!)
> 
> What I'd like the Retributors to get, is the option for four heavy Flamers!
> 
> As for weapons additions for the Sisters, how about Sororitas-Pattern Grenade Launchers in addition with Combi-Grenade Launchers and some sort Heavy Grenade Lauchers for the Retributors. Would at least be something partially new, quite exclusive to the Sisters and (if you take the Missile Launchers stats for the Heavy Grenade Lancher only at 36 Inch Range) would even keep the lower range feel of the Sisters. And with Incediary- (or phosphor-) grenades also the purging feel!
> 
> This being only my opinion and some spontaneous Suggestions, as always!


I don't know, missiles could easily be made to work in a way that would fit the fluff. Give them a fire-able flame template (much like the Flamestorm cannon, but keep it S4, AP5) and Melta missiles (say....36" range, S8, AP1, 2D6 armor pen and Heavy 1?) so that the Sisters aren't breaking the Trinity, they get some unique toys that fit their fluff (and don't make Exorcists an auto-include since the weapons would add some needed variety to the Sister's forces).

Something I think that should be done is that for every five Sisters in a squad you get one special and one heavy weapon. It'd make Foot Sisters a LOT more fun to use (and not make them auto-lose against fast armies), add in some extra firepower to the lists so that you have some redundancy, separate them from the Space Marines so they don't just act like Space Marine-Light variants, even at the 10 Sister squad level.

Granted this is just some wish-listing and biased fan-wankery but I think it'd fit the Sisters pretty well.


----------



## Grogbart

Kettu said:


> Holy Trinity just restricts if you want it to.


Same old story as ever, I want them (and the rest of the armies too) to be flexible enough to be fun and competitive in several differently approached builds, but restricted enough to make em a unique and distinct army!

As for Inferno Cannons (that's the name you were seeking, I think), Flamestorm cannons and some fitting Ordinance weapons. I'm expecting them so much, I occasionally take them for granted! 
And primarily talking about Retributors, I don't see them as viable options for hand held weapons (other than a SC former Retributor Canoness with a Flamestorm cannon and relentless, maybe!)


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## Kettu

Of course, saying all that I forgot the most important fact here.
Although the Trinity need not be restrictive, it'll all be GW's call in the end and face it, GW have sever trouble thinking of anything new for the Sisters here.
Any eventual Codex, I bet, will be nothing more then a cut down Marine Codex with the evident lack of options and Faith mechanics (No matter how nerfed) to separate it.


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## Zion

Kettu said:


> Any eventual Codex, I bet, will be nothing more then a cut down Marine Codex with the evident lack of options and Faith mechanics (No matter how nerfed) to separate it.


I really hope that won't be the case, but I honestly won't be surprised if it is.


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## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> I know its mostly a question of preference, but what is it exactly, that makes giving the Sisters Assault Cannons less space-marinating, than giving them Missile Launchers?
> (Assault cannons being SM only / Missile Launchers not being much different from the Hunter-Killer Missiles SoB vehicles may equip)


To me it'd be the fact that not many SM units can take Assault cannons, afaik you can't take 4 with devastators, or even 1 with normal troops.

It's not really the weapon itself it's the statline. Sisters are a shooty army and mainly use flamer, melta and bolter. I'm sure you could make a 48" melta cannon but if I use weapons currently in the game as examples it doesn't seem as much wishlisting as it does good suggestions/ideas.

Allot of people complain about sisters lacking in the long range anti tank department and if they got rending auto cannons that problem would be solved or if they got a 48" melta cannon but the problem there is the 2D6 pen on half range. So it'd have to be called something else.

What can you put on a regular Battle Sister, Celestian, Seraphim, Dominion or Retributor that can kill a tank up to 36"+ away? Currently there is nothing for these units. The act of faith system I sent to robin suggested giving sisters a bonus in inches up to 3x their BS for weapons, this would give them 36" Multimeltas for instance if they were successful in the level 3 act of faith.

The only long range anti tank Sisters have is the Exorcist and honestly I dont expect them to get anything else. I would be pleasantly surprised if they got Diaz patter meltagun with longer range or some such.

My fear is they will simply solve all the sisters shortcomings through the henchmen.

Playerbase: We dont have long range anti tank?!
GW: Just use the lascannon servitor henchmen....
Playerbase: Sisters suck in CC!?
GW: Just use the Death Cult henchmen....


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## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> The Seraphim rumours sound really cool with assault 2 melta and flamers though if the hand flamers are the S3 versions that BA got then no one will take them.


 Did you forget to take in account the act of faith? If you do the math, s3 with a re-roll is better then s4, not to mention it also fires twice. Hell I would even say it is a good as a heavy flamer (if not better). The only disadvantage is it's ap6. I'm still going to be using them.


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## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> Playerbase: We dont have long range anti tank?!
> GW: Just use the lascannon servitor henchmen....
> Playerbase: Sisters suck in CC!?
> GW: Just use the Death Cult henchmen....


They won't solve all teh problems that way unless they do some new stuff in there. Sisters don't just lack long range anti-tank they lack long range weapons period. teh two weapons that have a range greater than 24" in the codex are the heavy bolter and the Exorcist missile launcher. That's it.

The heavy bolter can only be carried by the Immolator for the cost of 30 points more than a Razorback, the Retributor (competes with the Exorcist), and a Celestian sqaad. The Celestian Squad may carry a single heavy bolter in a unit meant for primarily counter-assault. Since we are losing Inquisitors I'm discounting Gun servitors unless for some odd reason teh Confessor gets them.

Everything else is 24" or less. There are exactly 3 standard weapons in the codex with a range of 24" and they are the bolter, stormbolter, and the multi-melta. The bolter units will almost always be moving until assaulted for maximization of effect so they are more less a 12" gun. The Multi-melta has the sames issues as the Heavy Bolter in the army. The stormbolter is 10 points or more for each instance of one that you can take. Only the Dominion sqauds can take more than 2 of them. I hardly call 24" long range either.

There are instances of single models carrying additional weapons with similar ranges but for the current price they tend not to be worth it. So really the only things Sisters have more than 24" tend to be found in the Heavy Support chioces. Most codexes have long range weapons on units outside of just one Force Org slot.

Sisters need more shots at longer ranges in multiple force org slots in order to function better as an army. GK can currently outshoot them despite having less models with just stormbolters and psycannons. They also need blast templates and reserve manipulation to name a few things.


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## Grogbart

Well, we all have different dreams/preferences/plans for the Sisters. (or at least mine are different!) And its not like I'm totally opposed to Sisters getting some Squad-based hand-held long-range anti-tank weaponry. 

Its just that I quite like the close-quarter-shooting character of the Sisters, and would rather prefer things like, all Sisters being raised to WS4 and getting the option to equip defensive grenades or phosphor grenades that make enemy units assault as if in difficult terrain or anything along those lines, that makes Sister-units a less inviting and comforting place to take close-combat-cover in.

But I guess GW will find a way, to disappoint us all equally!

And to make it clear, I really enjoy discussing things with you people here!


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## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> They won't solve all teh problems that way unless they do some new stuff in there. Sisters don't just lack long range anti-tank they lack long range weapons period. teh two weapons that have a range greater than 24" in the codex are the heavy bolter and the Exorcist missile launcher. That's it.
> 
> The heavy bolter can only be carried by the Immolator for the cost of 30 points more than a Razorback, the Retributor (competes with the Exorcist), and a Celestian sqaad. The Celestian Squad may carry a single heavy bolter in a unit meant for primarily counter-assault. Since we are losing Inquisitors I'm discounting Gun servitors unless for some odd reason teh Confessor gets them.
> 
> Everything else is 24" or less. There are exactly 3 standard weapons in the codex with a range of 24" and they are the bolter, stormbolter, and the multi-melta. The bolter units will almost always be moving until assaulted for maximization of effect so they are more less a 12" gun. The Multi-melta has the sames issues as the Heavy Bolter in the army. The stormbolter is 10 points or more for each instance of one that you can take. Only the Dominion sqauds can take more than 2 of them. I hardly call 24" long range either.
> 
> There are instances of single models carrying additional weapons with similar ranges but for the current price they tend not to be worth it. So really the only things Sisters have more than 24" tend to be found in the Heavy Support chioces. Most codexes have long range weapons on units outside of just one Force Org slot.
> 
> Sisters need more shots at longer ranges in multiple force org slots in order to function better as an army. GK can currently outshoot them despite having less models with just stormbolters and psycannons. They also need blast templates and reserve manipulation to name a few things.


I agree, but with the Sisters tending to be nerfed-Space Marine duplicates I feel that this may not change too much unless the kinds of weapons we recieve change (storm bolters on all the Sisters perhaps?), or the Sister's rules do (Relentless on all of them so they can fire Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas on the move).

Actually a rule I'd like to see come the next edition (or at the very least, given to the Sisters) is the ability to move and fire a Heavy Weapon (namely ones that fire with the heavy profile) but at a lower ballistic skill to show that it's harder to hit consistantly while doing so. I know from experiance it's possible to move while firing a rapidly firing weapon, but it becomes harder to hit consistently. To not let models fire at all seems silly since things like Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters should be pretty effortless to fire from the hip, but would be harder to hit with them. Missile Launchers on the other hand I could definitely understand since those aren't the kinds of thing you'd fire from the hip.

Back to the topic of how to handle Sisters and keeping them inside of their Holy Trinity of weapons, I think the prospect of different weapons that fall into the same family might be the trick (like Telion's Stalker Pattern Bolt Gun). Give them varients of the weapons that work the same but have a better range, or different firing profile (like perhaps a flamer that can fire burning balls of promethium, or Bolters with a 36" range, or Meltas with an 18" range) for the Battle Sisters, and then borrow some of the weapons from other armies to modify the tanks with.

For example a Predator (since the Exorcist uses the same armor facings as the Predator I think it's justified) with a Vulkan Megabolter (no sponson options since it'd EAT a lot of ammo the tank should only get just the bolter) with a 30" range and Heavy 12 profile (to represent it being scaled down to fit) with the same strength and AP (to allow it to glance AV12, pen AV11, and murder 3+ save models whom we normally have trouble hurting as effectively) to start with would be nice. 

Long range melta would be outstanding but since that isn't likely to happen, Autocannons would be nice since, and would fit with the Sisters pretty well (it breaks the trinity but isn't an energy based weapon like the plasma cannon or lascannon which I feel is too much of a departure of how they operate).

A varient of the Sentinel would be a nice touch too. A sort of lightly armored gun platform the Sisters can use for dealing with stubborn, or heavilly armed opposition (give it the ability to take a Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Hurricane Bolter or Autocannon along with a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon (for extra points of course (pumped it to S8 so it's only on par with a Space Marine Powerfist, but an improvement over the standard Eviscerator)) with the ability to get an extra D6 on vehicle pen (since it's essentially a chainfist) and you have something I'd be willing to field on my side, or shoot against (especially if it was Squadron'd).

That or give the Pentinent Engine more options on the kinds of weapons it can bring (like two Meltas that count as twin-linked until you lose an arm, or two heavy bolters that act the same) for cheap so we can tailor it more towards the kinds of tasks we'd want to use it for (drop Rage though, random walkers suck harder than a vacuum pump. I should know, I've play Chaos Marines ).

Giving the Sisters either their current Blessed Ammunition (for a few points a model) to help thin out hordes in cover, or the Grey Knight's Psybolts (under a different name perhaps?) to make their weapons more effective would be a nice change too.

Actually...if anyone wants I'm willing to layout the changes I'd personally make if I were writing the next Sisters of Battle codex.


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## Grogbart

Zion said:


> (drop Rage though, random walkers suck harder than a vacuum pump. I should know, I've play Chaos Marines ).


Chaos Marines have vacuum pumps?

Sorry coudn't resist!


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## Zion

Grogbart said:


> Chaos Marines have vacuum pumps?
> 
> Sorry coudn't resist!


You forget that Slaneeshi Cultists can and will partake in fetishes that are commonly seen as too weird, or indescribable for a normal person to partake in.

So yes, they have vacuum pumps. Now what they DO with said pumps I will not say as that would pale in comparision to the things that I'm sure many people here could come up with. :wink:


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## TheSpore

Zion said:


> You forget that Slaneeshi Cultists can and will partake in fetishes that are commonly seen as too weird, or indescribable for a normal person to partake in.
> 
> So yes, they have vacuum pumps. Now what they DO with said pumps I will not say as that would pale in comparision to the things that I'm sure many people here could come up with. :wink:


Why am I reminded of A Scary Movie?

Im sure the slaaneshy cults got bored with that rather fast


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## Grogbart

Zion said:


> Actually...if anyone wants I'm willing to layout the changes I'd personally make if I were writing the next Sisters of Battle codex.


If you dare the homebrew section is avalible, hope you'll get more understanding than I did, but I'd defiantly be interested!


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## Zion

Grogbart said:


> If you dare the homebrew section is avalible, hope you'll get more understanding than I did, but I'd defiantly be interested!


Duley noted. Never tried to write a homebrew dex, so it might be fun I suppose.



TheSpore said:


> Why am I reminded of A Scary Movie?
> 
> Im sure the slaaneshy cults got bored with that rather fast


Ah, but they could have suction pumps that manage all sorts of things, especially when you take in account the effects of the warp.

Body part enlargement through swelling due to engorgement of blood(and with the warp that can get all sorts of weird), flesh removal, sensations you don't normally feel (such as the vacuum of space), finding creative ways to use them, use them as a restraint device, using them not unlike the way some people use clothespins (namely to inflict a small level of pain in a variety of places....yes some people are into it).....

Yeah, I've been exposed to some parts of the internet that I'm sure are followers of Slaneesh....you suffer some corruption from this sort of thing sadly.

On the other hand the corruptions my mind has suffered does make playing the forces of Chaos more entertaining to me than it is to most.


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## andrewm9

Zion said:


> Duley noted. Never tried to write a homebrew dex, so it might be fun I suppose.


I have and it was fun but challenging. Trying to plug the holes in a Sisters codex while not making them good at everything was a nice balancing act. I built units that were accomplished at CC without being as good or better than some other dedicated close combat units. I also tried to create balanced and fluffy units to round out the other sections of the codex. I certainly appreciated the dilemmas that codex writers must grapple with.


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## Shandathe

Hrmm. That might be an interesting project... Everyone makes a homebrew dex and we compare notes afterwards. Necrosis is exempt due to an already excellent effort


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## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Hrmm. That might be an interesting project... Everyone makes a homebrew dex and we compare notes afterwards. Necrosis is exempt due to an already excellent effort


And depending on what the White Dwarf codex looks like and your local play group, you may have an alternate way to play that would allow for some fun and interesting games.


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## Necrosis

Shandathe said:


> Hrmm. That might be an interesting project... Everyone makes a homebrew dex and we compare notes afterwards. Necrosis is exempt due to an already excellent effort


No Fair!

I'm not even done yet, I will be adding two new units. Arch Celestians and Arch Seraphims. Arch Seraphims is going to give sisters something totally new that we have not seen before. Also I'm getting rid of Venerable Seraphims and biker sisters.


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## Shandathe

You're still exempt from having to make one, as you've already gone through that process


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## MadCowCrazy

Argh! Someone receive their WD already, I NEED to know the new rules now!


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Argh! Someone receive their WD already, I NEED to know the new rules now!


That or *bleep* it online for *bleep*load. 

MadCowCrazy: Even though I agree completely I think the GW vultures would take offence :crazy:


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## Kettu

Whilst we all ponder our navels, who wants to help me with my navel searching?


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## Azezel

Those of you who have the recent WD... the one with new Cities of Death bits.

Is it true there's a stratagem for the Grey Knights which involves marking buildings with the blood of the pious? If so, is this what it sounds like?


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## mahavira

There is and it is precisely what it sounds like.


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## Maidel

andrewm9 said:


> I have and it was fun but challenging. Trying to plug the holes in a Sisters codex while not making them good at everything was a nice balancing act. I built units that were accomplished at CC without being as good or better than some other dedicated close combat units. I also tried to create balanced and fluffy units to round out the other sections of the codex. I certainly appreciated the dilemmas that codex writers must grapple with.


A few years ago I did a combined inqusitorial codex - its around here somewhere in the home-rules section.

The irony was despite getting lots of positve feedback (and my first +rep) the main complaints I got on this site and others was that it wasnt 'fluffy' enough and that it was over powered (eg - I gave all grey knights power weapons).

Ironically, when the codex came out what did we find - Dreadknights, draigo and all grey knights having bleedin force weapons!


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## hungryugolino

You're joking about the City of Death stratagem. Right?


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## VaUgHaNy86

Nope, it really does say that


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## Zion

VaUgHaNy86 said:


> Nope, it really does say that


Chaos Knights!

Actually that could be kind of awesome (as mentioned before). Maybe after I finish my other projects.


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## Maidel

Zion said:


> Chaos Knights!
> 
> Actually that could be kind of awesome (as mentioned before). Maybe after I finish my other projects.


If you dare I will come and hunt you down.


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## Zion

Maidel said:


> If you dare I will come and hunt you down.


Well right now on my project list I've got a Dark Mechanicus Guard army, a Sisters of Battle Super heavy and (whenever we get new Sisters models) a Sisters army to update. So in about three or four years I'll get around to it? 


Oh and I'm working on my fandex just in case. Don't think I'll do any SCs though. At least not initially. Got to get all those basic rules out of the way first.


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## mahavira

hungryugolino said:


> You're joking about the City of Death stratagem. Right?


Quote:

"Hexagrammatic Wards
Key Buildings Stratagems
The Grey Knights have prepared the battlefield inscribing sacred sigils with the blood of the pious. Such sigils act as powerful wards, creating a sanctuary from Daemons and Psykers."

End quote prior to rules mechanics in hopes of GW not suing me.


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## Zion

mahavira said:


> Quote:
> 
> "Hexagrammatic Wards
> Key Buildings Stratagems
> The Grey Knights have prepared the battlefield inscribing sacred sigils with the blood of the pious. Such sigils act as powerful wards, creating a sanctuary from Daemons and Psykers."
> 
> End quote prior to rules mechanics in hopes of GW not suing me.


I wonder if Ward wrote this one. Either way it means that Grey Knights apparently carry the blood of members of the Ecclesiarchy, mostly likely any Saints and Sisters that happen to be in the area.

And as I imagine that they don't just hold a blood drive every once in a while I don't think the manner in which they obtain this blood is...well pleasant.

*COUGHKHORNEKNIGHTS!COUGH*

Well in any case if this is the road GW wants to go down I think Sisters should get a 3+ (4+ at worst) protection from Psychic Powers (or a 5+ to stop any psychic power used within 12" of an Adeptus Sororitas unit as their faith and piety is able to keep the Psykers from being able to manipulate the energies of the Warp) and render Force Weapons only usable as close combat weapons that provide stat line modifications (if they provide any).


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## Lastik

Zion said:


> I wonder if Ward wrote this one. Either way it means that Grey Knights apparently carry the blood of members of the Ecclesiarchy, mostly likely any Saints and Sisters that happen to be in the area.
> 
> And as I imagine that they don't just hold a blood drive every once in a while I don't think the manner in which they obtain this blood is...well pleasant.
> 
> *COUGHKHORNEKNIGHTS!COUGH*
> 
> Well in any case if this is the road GW wants to go down I think Sisters should get a 3+ (4+ at worst) protection from Psychic Powers (or a 5+ to stop any psychic power used within 12" of an Adeptus Sororitas unit as their faith and piety is able to keep the Psykers from being able to manipulate the energies of the Warp) and render Force Weapons only usable as close combat weapons that provide stat line modifications (if they provide any).


I'm okay with the Grey Knight (matt) ward so as long as the sisters get a ward against douchebagery based on cripto-runes inscribed with the blood of GKs :laugh:

Seriously I can understand the savagery of caos, but the douche attitude and fluff ward gave the GKs is just plain exasperating (and I really hope the sisters get a full codex in addition to the WD article as well as a model revamp, otherwise it's a huge slap in the face).

Though now that I think of it.. it would be awesome for the 6th edition and fluff progression if the GKs would be deemed renegades and heretics for their bloodthirsty methods and a religious war initiated in the empire.


----------



## JaqTaar

Something that occured to me only now: Why don't the Grey Knights use their own blood for these wards and rituals?


----------



## Necrosis

JaqTaar said:


> Something that occured to me only now: Why don't the Grey Knights use their own blood for these wards and rituals?


Cause they need blood of female virgins. That or Matt Ward is simply not smart enough or hates sisters and wants them to die. Maybe a combination of all 3.


----------



## Maidel

Zion said:


> *COUGHKHORNEKNIGHTS!COUGH*


Thats it!

Im comming to get you. The states are a really big place to find someone - but Im comming!


----------



## Zion

JaqTaar said:


> Something that occured to me only now: Why don't the Grey Knights use their own blood for these wards and rituals?


Because you'd have to be pure to do it. They're too busy killing millions of innocent people to kill one Daemon.




Maidel said:


> Thats it!
> 
> Im comming to get you. The states are a really big place to find someone - but Im comming!


I'll give you a clue: Upstate New York. If you see Frost Giants you've gone too far.

Look! I found some new offical Grey Knights artwork!












In all honesty I wouldn't mind so much about the Grey Knights if they didn't pointlessly slaughter the Sisters just to kill one Bloodthirster.


----------



## AlexHolker

Lastik said:


> Though now that I think of it.. it would be awesome for the 6th edition and fluff progression if the GKs would be deemed renegades and heretics for their bloodthirsty methods and a religious war initiated in the empire.


No, it wouldn't. Wards work should be incinerated and forgotten, not left to fester.


----------



## Grogbart

Lastik said:


> Though now that I think of it.. it would be awesome for the 6th edition and fluff progression if the GKs would be deemed renegades and heretics for their bloodthirsty methods and a religious war initiated in the empire.


Knowing GW, its more likely all Astartes will get emergency bottles of Sororitas-blood Body Lotion, which help against chaos, pimples and itching in rather inaccessible areas under their Power Armour.


----------



## Azezel

Given that the blood of Sororitas is apparently solvent against chaos in all its forms, one has to imagine that we will get some very impressive anti-psyker/daemon/chaos defenses come August.

I'm thinking at the very least the equivalent of the 'nid's Acid Blood against all psykers, Daemons and anything from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Either that or a sidebar pointing out that Sororitas blood's almighty protective powers only work when the blood is smeared on something else by Grey Knights wearing suspicious looking hats.


EDIT: Actually, that wouldn't work. If Sororitas blood burned Psykers on contact, the Grey Knights would presumably be a little bit less cavalier about splashing it all over the shop...


----------



## Shandathe

You know, I'd be happier if nobody ever mentioned that particular fluff debacle again... but since I can't have that, making fun of it is probably the next best thing 

As it stands, I simply hope we can still get our hands on some of those nice anti-Psyker toys in the upcoming Codex... I'd love to wield a Power Stake against Draigo


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> You know, I'd be happier if nobody ever mentioned that particular fluff debacle again... but since I can't have that, making fun of it is probably the next best thing


I don't think GW _wants_ us to forget. :shok:


----------



## mahavira

JaqTaar said:


> Something that occured to me only now: Why don't the Grey Knights use their own blood for these wards and rituals?





Necrosis said:


> Cause they need blood of female virgins. That or Matt Ward is simply not smart enough or hates sisters and wants them to die. Maybe a combination of all 3.


Or as psykers their blood wouldn't work. They may have sufficient training and will to resist possession, but they are still windows into the warp.


----------



## Lastik

Seriously, the emperor forbid the use of magics because it was too unstable and corruptible even for primarchs (as in Magnus), to the point of ordering the disbandement and arrest of the legion, then there's these guys who specifically say in the codex that they base their power on sorcery because science can't be trusted, whose home planet (well moon actually), was hidden in the warp and made safe with sorcery from a human, 

But hey it's alright because we're GKs and we're more awesome than primarchs and stuff and like we can go against every known policy from the emperor vecause we're like awesome and stuff, and like we can never be currupted by caos even though we do stuff just as bad if not worse because we're awesome and stuff...

Though I must say, Mr. Ward codexes have been most excelent in my dieting. If I read them during my meals I don't keep anything in my stomach 

/nerdrage mode 

And sorry for the sidetrack, few things set my nerd mode off like that.

On topic I've a IG army and am considering my options for a second army, and I always loved the gothic feel of the sisters. If they make new models or at least make plastic models of the old ones I'll probably take them on


----------



## Doelago

People still bitching about the fact that the GK`s needed the Sisters blood? Wow, people, just wow. You need to watch more of those old witch/daemon hunter movies.


----------



## Shandathe

No, we're still bitching about the fact that the way it was written went completely against previously established canon. If they'd killed the Sisters because they'd seen too much or because they suspected the Sisters had been tainted I'd have been fine with it (well, I'd only have whined about it happening to the Sisters AGAIN, anyway).

However, the supposedly purest of the pure killing innocents and defiling themselves with their blood - and somehow becoming more pure in the process - will have me annoyed until the next Codex pulls something worse on us.


----------



## The Sullen One

I'm guessing the idea behind the GKs killing the sisters is to show how uncaring the Imperium is about collateral damage when it comes to fighting Chaos, after all what are the lives of a few sisters when you're destroying whole worlds?

That said, it still made me dislike the GKs, thinking about all those poor Guardsmen and Sisters who are killed for doing their duty to the Imperium and doing it well (hmm, could this be the real reason their killed? Because the GKs showed up too late to do any fighting and didn't want anyone to know about it?). I remember reading the Grey Knights omnibus by Ben Counter and it was interesting in that the main character, Alaric, is something of a maverick, just like Uriel and Pasanius in the Ultramarine books, or Naaman in the Purging of Kadillus. Why is it that all the interesting Space Marines are the ones who break the rules?


----------



## AlexHolker

The Sullen One said:


> I'm guessing the idea behind the GKs killing the sisters is to show how uncaring the Imperium is about collateral damage when it comes to fighting Chaos, after all what are the lives of a few sisters when you're destroying whole worlds?


Of course it fails at that, because being uncaring of collateral damage is only an option when that collateral damage doesn't sabotage your chances for victory anyway. The only thing stopping Ward's sorcery-using, blood-sacrificing, arrogant not-Grey Knights from failing utterly is Ward's god-modding.


----------



## Katie Drake

I dunno guys, I think that the Grey Knight's use of sorcery is a wonderfully grimdark thing. People are always complaining about how 40K is becoming more kid friendly and so on, but what isn't grimdark about the Grey Knights essentially being the ultimate hypocrites and using the enemy's weapons against them while utterly despising anyone else who attempts to do the same?

Try to remember that the Grey Knights are so far above common humanity (and indeed any non-so-common human) that they don't see themselves as subject to the same rules or laws. The Knights do what is necessary to combat Chaos, even if it isn't always the nice thing to do.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Blergh ... when I got back into 40k last winter (after my 12 year absence) I was truely surprised by the neat treatment the Dark Eldar got, for example. 
But this latest tidbit is a literal violation of fluff and everything that's been established before - and I somehow really, really dislike the route GW is taking with their own line of products, the background to the game world (let's see what a load of goat s**t 6th ed. will throw our way) and especially their service to their customers. Gimme a frickin' time machine that'll take me back to the days when you could still order every single last bit or part you'd need from the mail order (at a reasonable price at that) and you would not need to be afraid to have your very own zone of privacy violated by a Redshirt upon entering one of their stores. Yeah, take me home to the days of Genestealer Cults and Codex Sisters of Battle ... :angry::biggrin:


----------



## Grogbart

The problem is GW has two sensible paths to take, going child friendly or grimdark, but allways seems to choose a third path of going incomprehensible.

I mean Grey Knights having to rely on Sororitas blood being available on such a very VERY special occasion as fighting a deamon!?! (What's the GKs primary job again?)

Same with Rules, by the way. Its either going easy or going more comprehensible. But nooo, GW is just going senseless.

And making Grey Knights more mindless than Necrons isn't exactly helpful either, I think. 

If you want ruthlessly slaughtering Space Marines performing atrocious rituals, I'd say that's what Chaos Space Marines are for!!!

The other part of Sisters being everyones favorite victim, has been thoroughly mentioned here already!


----------



## Azezel

AlexHolker said:


> The only thing stopping Ward's sorcery-using, blood-sacrificing, arrogant not-Grey Knights from failing utterly is *Ward's god-modding.*






Katie Drake said:


> I dunno guys, I think that the Grey Knight's use of sorcery is a wonderfully grimdark thing. People are always complaining about how 40K is becoming more kid friendly and so on, but what isn't grimdark about the Grey Knights essentially being the ultimate hypocrites and using the enemy's weapons against them while utterly despising anyone else who attempts to do the same?


I can fully see your point, Katie - and I'd even agree with you if Ward and GW collectively had the testicular fortitude to cop to it.

The Grey Knights are flat-out heretics. Chaos Space Marines - the greatest of all Chaos Space Marines. They are fratricidal, deamon-binding, Warp-roaming sorcerers. Fine, that's grimdark as all hell. But for the fluff to pretend that they are all of these things and still loyalist is what annoys us.

It's the massive gap between what they are shown to be and what we are told they are.

Maidel was upset when Zion thought about building a Renegade GK army because Maidel, and GW, doesn't realise that the cannon _GK are as renegade as anyone can be without actually being Horus._


And for my part, I had let the blood thing drop, and was going to continue ignoring it right up until I heard that this Planettrike update had wheeled it out again. It's as though they're proud of this terrible, terrible fluff and the utter contempt, loathing in fact, that Gammes Worrkshop have for my army.

Hell, that reminds me...



Mahavira said:


> The article was written a bit wierdly - his exact quote was "By the same token, if slaying their Battle Sister allies provides the pure blood needd to enact a banishing ritual against warp-spawn, then a Justicar may well order it." The article continued: Putting aside teh Grey Knights' pragmatism for a moment (*Mat spoke with a little too much relish when extolling the previous example*)...
> 
> I am not a charitable person, so I interpret it to mean *he's pretty pleased with himself regarding the story and wanted to be sure everyone knew about it.*


Ward is actually proud of what he's done. Of course we're going to hear more about it.

Ye gods!


----------



## Maidel

Did I forget to put my post in orange...

Damn!


Ps- they aren't heretical. That bits not me being funny.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem isn't that the GKs killed the Sisters, the problem is that they had to do it to protect themselves from the blood tide while some of the Sisters were pure enough to withstand it's influence. This is proof that the purest army in all of 40k are the Sisters of Battle, even purer than the Grey Knights. It is said that no GK has ever fallen to chaos but this bit of fluff proves that this is just based on luck. If there are no Sisters present the next time a daemon decides to use a blood tide then the GKs are fucked.
The biggest slap in the face though is this line:
In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood.

Should have redeemed the knights a little if the Sisters willingly would have sacrificed themselves (as that is something I could actually see them do) and it would have read : the selfless sacrifice of the Sisters of Battle.

I really hope Sisters become the best anti psyker army in the game, a direct anathema vs the GK codex. Every squad leader getting a free Psyochulum and a 4+ save to resist any psyhic power cast within 24" would be enough.

In all seriousness the Witch Hunters and the Sisters of Battle are on the forefront of fighting Psykers so they should be even better against the GKs than the GK codex is vs itself.

I know WH are not in the dex but I'm pointing out that these 2 factions main job is to kill or capture psykers.

The Sisters focus on 3 things; Witchcraft, Heresy and Mutation

They should have some of the best tools to fight psykers and heretics in the game.

Sisters of Silence in the codex would be awesome. Any psyker within 12" is unable to cast or use any psyhic powers/wargear.


----------



## Azezel

Sisters of Silence (besides being a really bad idea) have only been mentioned pre-Heresy as the chamber militant of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

Besides having the word 'Sisters' in their name they've no connection to the Sororitas, nor should they.

I'm not sure that the Sororitas could field Blanks in any event. Blanks are, remember, mutants and we all know how the Sororitas feel about mutants. (They aren't fans)


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> The problem isn't that the GKs killed the Sisters, the problem is that they had to do it to protect themselves from the blood tide while some of the Sisters were pure enough to withstand it's influence. *This is proof that the purest army in all of 40k are the Sisters of Battle, even purer than the Grey Knights. *It is said that no GK has ever fallen to chaos but this bit of fluff proves that this is just based on luck. If there are no Sisters present the next time a daemon decides to use a blood tide then the GKs are fucked.


I put the most important part in bold font. :biggrin:

Seriously though, I agree with the Psyker defense. Being able to shut them down on the table would be awesome. I mean, Fantasy has Dwarves for the big anti-magic army, why can't we have Sisters be the big anti-psyker army? It's part of what they do, even without Inquisitors.




Maidel said:


> Did I forget to put my post in orange...
> 
> Damn!
> 
> 
> Ps- they aren't heretical. That bits not me being funny.


We *know* they're not *supposed* to be heretical Khorne loving blood spilling Psychic Marines (especially since Khrone hates psykers) but it's *far* more entertaining to joke about them being so than to just simply accepting the poorly written and badly contrived fluff. You don't have to agree, but quit raining on everyone's parade just because you don't.



Azezel said:


> Sisters of Silence (besides being a really bad idea) have only been mentioned pre-Heresy as the chamber militant of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.
> 
> Besides having the word 'Sisters' in their name they've no connection to the Sororitas, nor should they.
> 
> I'm not sure that the Sororitas could field Blanks in any event. Blanks are, remember, mutants and we all know how the Sororitas feel about mutants. (They aren't fans)


Hm, nice point. But I think a sort of proxy-Sisters of Silence would still have a chance to exist in the order, be they actual Blanks (because I don't know if Sisters do genetic screening on their order or only go after visual mutations, it's never specified), or Sisters who are trained in how to channel the power of the Emperor's will into snuffing out psychic energies as it manifests (think of them as a living conduit for the Emperor. They most likely won't live long lives due to the energies wearing them out much faster than normal aging would, but they would be seen as a special blessed few whom the Emperor enforces his will personally). Either way limiting them to either being an IC or a retinue option would be a good way to get a sort of psychic hood on the table. Perhaps using a similiar rule that the Pariahs have by severely lowering a Psyker's leadership and making them need to test to use their abilities?


----------



## Azezel

Remember, the Grey Knights explicitly practice the six chants of denial, the seven words of life and death, the eight songs of battle and the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick.

Damn, can anybody remember what the Chaos gods' sacred numbers and domains are. There's something familiar about the Grey Knight's methods, but I can't quite seem to put my finger on it...

Oh well, it's probably nothing.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> I'm not sure that the Sororitas could field Blanks in any event. Blanks are, remember, mutants and we all know how the Sororitas feel about mutants. (They aren't fans)





Zion said:


> Hm, nice point. But I think a sort of proxy-Sisters of Silence would still have a chance to exist in the order, be they actual Blanks (because I don't know if Sisters do genetic screening on their order or only go after visual mutations, it's never specified)


Ok, The Imperium have technology that can give DNA scans, Complete Body Scans. Warp Signature Scans etc... And these are all pretty common place. It would be reasonable to expect that the Sisterhood would run these tests on all potentials to make sure they were not setting up a trap with their own name on it for later.
Going by Dark Heresy, making a Sister character you can *NOT* have any mutations, corruption points or Psyker abilities before hand. (I don't even think you can have hidden psyker abilities) So this does support this idea.

However, Blanks are not included on the list of mutations. Hell, most the time you won't even know they are a blank unless you specifically test for it. They just come off as being someone you don't want to know. They smell bad or all your hair stands up on the back of your neck when you are near them.

You can have a Blank Sister of any Order, Militant or otherwise.

There is a kink in all of this though.
Back when Black Industries, a Black Library subsidiary, was handling the Sisters of Battle (Inquisitor's Handbook) their Faith Powers, similar to Codex Witch Hunters, are minor effects that could be passed off as a state of mind, really good training and the such.
When the Radical's Handbook came out (BI had been folded at this point but the book had already been written. Fantasy Flight Games cleaned it slightly and released it with no real change) the Sisters were given their first major Faith Power. A Sister gains the ability to objectively judge the purity of people just by looking at them. Here's the catch...
They get seen as Psykers and are tortured by their own Order until they die or an Inquisitor whisks them away to join his merry men.
:headbutt::headbutt::headbutt::crazy:

Now, not only does this fly in the face of Sisters current fluff who have the Faith Ability to *SHOOT LASERS OF PURITY* (Blood of Martyrs) but also in regards to the many items that allow you to assess someone's psyker ability in an instance without torture.

By the looks of things Fantasy Flight Games has been trying to fix up and make the universe pretty consistent in regards to the idiocy that happen with the earliest books but none the less, there is that. 
FFG can't just outright declare early books non-canon.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> Remember, the Grey Knights explicitly practice the six chants of denial, the seven words of life and death, the eight songs of battle and the nine terrible spells that form the basis of all magick.
> 
> Damn, can anybody remember what the Chaos gods' sacred numbers and domains are. There's something familiar about the Grey Knight's methods, but I can't quite seem to put my finger on it...
> 
> Oh well, it's probably nothing.


Pity I haven't had the money yet. Chaos Grey Knights call to me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Pity I haven't had the money yet. Chaos Grey Knights call to me.


Heck Purifiers would be perfect for some sort of Nurgle Plague Marines, instead of Cleansing Flame (the wound on 4+ anything that assaults) you could easily just rename it Nurgles Rot. It's basically the exact same thing but better and you have to do a psychic test.

Paladins could be Tzeentch marines with Holocaust being some dark shooting magic.

Terminators would be khorne

Which only leaves Strike and Interceptors as Slaanesh.

Henchmen could easily be Heretics of different kinds.

Of all the dexes I'd say the GK one is the easiest one to turn into a Chaos codex.

Sure BA is easy for Khorne but not much else while the GK fits all the Chaos gods.


Question, will Sisters get any psychic hood things at all? You have to be a psyker to use one, think Sisters will keep their 5+ dispel psychic powers thing?

I am expecting to see the Psyoculum as a choice for many units, or wargear with similar effects (BS 10 vs any unit containing a psyker). Heck something that gave both WS and BS 10 vs any unit with psykers would fit them more.
Then again this is just me wishing Sisters get upgrades that make GK players refuse to play you because they are so OP!


----------



## Lastik

Like so many said here it's not just the blood bit.

-They make extensive use of sorcery to the point of saying it's more reliable than technology, something the emperor himself forbade because not even magnus the most knowledgeable and powerfull of all primarchs on that matter could control or avoid it's side efects.

-On that matter, their order and base was founded by a human psyker who took the whole of Titan out of its orbit, anchored it in the warp for hundreds of year and made everyone forget about it. Did I mention he was a human?

-The Imperium is xenopobic, the Inquisition even more so, so what do the "pure and awesome" GKs do? Go to Malantai, kill the demons there (so far, so good), and babysit the freaking spirit stones untill the eldar come to reclaim it!

-Like others mentioned here before, it's not the using of blood to ward of the demons that we're oposed. I can perfectly see a Cannoness/ Inquisitor using bottles of blood extracted from the Martired Order of St Whatever fallen in battle at the Shrine of Holly Whatchamacallit. Heck I'm a IG player, I'm more than used to see my guys getting killed so the SMurfs can look good, however the deliberate killing of the pure to use the blood in rituals is as caos as you can get.


----------



## TheSpore

Lastik said:


> Like so many said here it's not just the blood bit.
> 
> -They make extensive use of sorcery to the point of saying it's more reliable than technology, something the emperor himself forbade because not even magnus the most knowledgeable and powerfull of all primarchs on that matter could control or avoid it's side efects.
> 
> -On that matter, their order and base was founded by a human psyker who took the whole of Titan out of its orbit, anchored it in the warp for hundreds of year and made everyone forget about it. Did I mention he was a human?
> 
> -The Imperium is xenopobic, the Inquisition even more so, so what do the "pure and awesome" GKs do? Go to Malantai, kill the demons there (so far, so good), and babysit the freaking spirit stones untill the eldar come to reclaim it!
> 
> -Like others mentioned here before, it's not the using of blood to ward of the demons that we're oposed. I can perfectly see a Cannoness/ Inquisitor using bottles of blood extracted from the Martired Order of St Whatever fallen in battle at the Shrine of Holly Whatchamacallit. Heck I'm a IG player, I'm more than used to see my guys getting killed so the SMurfs can look good, however the deliberate killing of the pure to use the blood in rituals is as caos as you can get.


So what we are saying here is exactly what Ive always thought was the GK worship chaos and pretend thats its not chaos. Technically they use chaos to fight chaos and they claim they are pure and holy, when in truth they are no better than their taritor bretheren. 

Am I right so far


----------



## Kettu

On a vaguely on-topic note, Allegedly Failcast, sorry, Finecrap... Damn, can't seem to spell it right, oh well. Allegedly FC is getting it's second wave release in August.

There was a list posted a little while ago somewhere by someone of what would be on it and whilst Inquisitor, the amazing Chairman is on it, there is no Sister related stock.

And the number of people saying, stating, guessing and declaring that the rumoured plastics are not coming with the WDex (Like every WDex to this point) starting to outnumber the opposing opinion, It would seem that GW does not even intend to see if people wish to play the army at all.

It all tends to support the 'So GW can claim with a straight face that ALL 3rd ed dexes were updated for 5th ed' camp here.

Mad Cow, When you go to GD, please find out why GW hates the Sisters of Battle.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I already know the answer, GW hates women, it's that simple. They have provided nothing to get women into the game for god knows how many years now. Everyone with gf who play the game and girl gamers I know have either come into the game playing Sisters of Battle or been recommended to play Sisters as it's a girls army. The price point is just too steep for most people and the fact the army is so date and the lack of support means it's not worth starting them.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I already know the answer, GW hates women, it's that simple. They have provided nothing to get women into the game for god knows how many years now. Everyone with gf who play the game and girl gamers I know have either come into the game playing Sisters of Battle or been recommended to play Sisters as it's a girls army. The price point is just too steep for most people and the fact the army is so date and the lack of support means it's not worth starting them.


I'm sure GW doesn't hate girls, they're just awkward and frightened by them. Maybe if GW got out more and took the occasional shower, and tried talking to them it might do better. GW just needs more experience with them. :biggrin:

Anyways, I don't think there is anything such as a "girl's army" in any game. Now hear me out. Sure Sisters are the only army that is made OF completely women but you could get creative with Eldar/Dark Eldar and have that, too. If you think creatively there are ways to introduce her to, and help generate that interest that will bring her into the hobby. Maybe not 40K-per say but maybe Warhammer (I know a gal who is working on a Skaven army, and is insisting she won't field it until she's got all 2K of it painted and based, and it's her first army!). 

Let's be honest here. There is plenty in 40K that can interest anyone, assuming of course that there is someone who can link the person's existing interests to the game. That takes someone who is a player who knows the material and the other person well enough to do this AND is willing to take the extra time to help the other person be able to develop that interests *COUGHADDICTIONCOUGH* as well.

Part of our problem is that outside of those of us who play there isn't much advertisement of the game so it's reliant on the people who play to pitch the game, and let's face it, a good portion of us are nerds/geeks who end up scaring people off from stuff like this because we get too excited about the minutia of the hobby. If you're dating, or are married to someone who isn't into that sort of thing, bogging them down with the entire history of Ultramar isn't the right way to get them into the game.

Now some players CAN generate that interest by linking the non-player's existing hobbies or favored media to the game without causing the overload. And sometimes she'll end up wanting to play (we have two females in my local gaming club. One plays Nids, the other Blood Angels), others she'll want to paint and will just paint your army while your gaming (I've seen that too and it's not a bad thing. It lets her be involved in your hobby, gives you something to work on together, and if you hate painting then she's actually doing you a HUGE favor) and other times she won't get into the hobby, and that could be anything from who you game with, to the fact that she sees your gaming time as your chance to get out and do something without her, to her just liking other things more than war gaming. Not every 40Ker dates someone who can dig the sort of hobby we have. It involves more time and patience than most the average person is willing to give and I'm okay with that.

Besides I'm sure there is a flip-side to this who thing too, were some of the gals who play who've dated guys who couldn't get into the hobby for some reason or another. Not nearly as many I'm sure as the other way around, but considering the number of people who play this game world wide it's had to have happened.


----------



## TheSpore

Im sure GW is gonna be doing something new to the sisters soon enough. Its seems they are attempting to see if there is still an appeal for them.


----------



## andrewm9

TheSpore said:


> Im sure GW is gonna be doing something new to the sisters soon enough. Its seems they are attempting to see if there is still an appeal for them.


That may be true, but I'm not seeing how the plan is going to take effect unless somethign changes in the current way they sell models for the army. There is no other army in the game that has packaged its basic troops in blisters of 3.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I already know the answer, GW hates women, it's that simple. They have provided nothing to get women into the game for god knows how many years now. Everyone with gf who play the game and girl gamers I know have either come into the game playing Sisters of Battle or been recommended to play Sisters as it's a girls army. The price point is just too steep for most people and the fact the army is so date and the lack of support means it's not worth starting them.


I keep insisting that Games Workshop as an institution does not have a thing about women, and that if any of their employees do, they keep it to themselves. Games Workshop sometimes make it hard for me to defend that position, but I stand by it.

Games Workshop and its employees hate is Sisters of Battle. Their gender is, I believe, irrelevant.


As for women in the hobby, could it possibly be that there are few women in the hobby for the same reason that there are few women in my fencing club, and not many blokes (one, in fact) in my friend's knitting group?

For a combination of reasons, not all of them simple or changeable, some hobbies just appeal more to one gender or another. Whilst there will always be men who like knitting (I can knit, fairly well, actually, but I don't like doing it) and women who like toy soldiers neither hobby will ever have 50:50 gender parity.

Unless your gaming club has a Calvin & Hobbes style 'no girls allowed' signs then I don't think it's time to start wringing your hands and calling yourself and your hobby sexist.

Although you probably _are_ sexist if you assume that Sisters are the ideal army for a woman, based solely on gender. I'm just sayin'.



Zion said:


> (I know a gal who is working on a Skaven army, and is insisting she won't field it until she's got all 2K of it painted and based, and it's her first army!).


Ooh, I like her a lot! I've never fielded an unpainted model and I keep telling people that it can be done.


----------



## boreas

I knew a restaurant like that. It would make a great steak. And then leave it on the counter for a few weeks. Then roll it under the fridge. 

They do not serve steak anymore, because their clients apparently didn't like steak. 

Of course, there will be that WD codex and I'm happy. But how will GW test the interest when no one will buy minis (are they even for sale anymore)?

Phil


----------



## Creon

I'm hoping this is "placeholder 5th" and that a full 6th edition codex is in the works, just not ready enough to go when they had the models ready.


----------



## TheSpore

I'm willing to bet that even if they don't give them any new models at all they may just re release the olds ones anyway.

Who says the sisters are for girls only anyway, I knew a girl who ran a all worldeaters army and another that was all about the daemons...


----------



## Zion

Azezel said:


> I keep insisting that Games Workshop as an institution does not have a thing about women, and that if any of their employees do, they keep it to themselves. Games Workshop sometimes make it hard for me to defend that position, but I stand by it.
> 
> Games Workshop and its employees hate is Sisters of Battle. Their gender is, I believe, irrelevant.
> 
> 
> As for women in the hobby, could it possibly be that there are few women in the hobby for the same reason that there are few women in my fencing club, and not many blokes (one, in fact) in my friend's knitting group?
> 
> For a combination of reasons, not all of them simple or changeable, some hobbies just appeal more to one gender or another. Whilst there will always be men who like knitting (I can knit, fairly well, actually, but I don't like doing it) and women who like toy soldiers neither hobby will ever have 50:50 gender parity.
> 
> Unless your gaming club has a Calvin & Hobbes style 'no girls allowed' signs then I don't think it's time to start wringing your hands and calling yourself and your hobby sexist.
> 
> Although you probably _are_ sexist if you assume that Sisters are the ideal army for a woman, based solely on gender. I'm just sayin'.


I'd go a step further and say that part of the problem comes from the fact as players a lot of us aren't good at introducing the game to people who might want to learn to play. Compounded with some of the people in our hobby who basically scare off the average person (e.g. everyone in the hobby who is WAAC ALL the time, fails to bathe regularly, thinks shouting is an communication skill when they're standing next to you, or insist on spouting every trivial fact about the universe every thirty six seconds). It gets worse for women who aren't used to dealing with the more socially-maladjusted, without other women there. It's not exactly a friendly environment when you're the only girl there and all the guys are hovering around you like vultures.

There are large parts of our community that fail to make this game more accessible to new players of both sexes and that makes me sad because the new blood is what keeps the game from stagnating. New players bring new ideas, and new ways to play. Maybe it's as simple as bringing foot Orks, or Nids to a mech heavy environment and making the local meta change to deal with it, and thus bringing variety back into the local game, or maybe someone who turns out to be a skilled painter and their awesomely painted army makes you try harder. Without those players coming into the game, how can we hope for this hobby to expand, to improve or even continue?



Azezel said:


> Ooh, I like her a lot! I've never fielded an unpainted model and I keep telling people that it can be done.


She's going with a rather hard list to build up to as well, with a large amount of Skaven Slaves.


----------



## Galldrian

So I take it there is no new models out for this WD codex


----------



## TheSpore

Galldrian said:


> So I take it there is no new models out for this WD codex


That is what the rumours are suggesting, I honestly think this is a way for WD to gain some poularity back rather than it being a huge advertisment for whatever new models they are releasing


----------



## Zion

Galldrian said:


> So I take it there is no new models out for this WD codex


I've seen a lot of guessing, but it seems the majority of the bets are on 'no'. We'll see in a couple of weeks though if things starting going on preorder!


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> I've seen a lot of guessing, but it seems the majority of the bets are on 'no'. We'll see in a couple of weeks though if things starting going on preorder!


Preorders are now only within the final week before they get released proper. We won't know until the final week of July or first week of August.


----------



## TheSpore

we should have some kind of clue at the begininning of July or the middle. The thing is GW is going to more than likely advertise like hell about a new model release or or what not.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Allot of failcast is scheduled for August, the list was rather short though so we might see some of the henchmen in restic, like arcos and death cult. If we were to get anything it would be failcast, an IC or SC unless they are planning on resculpting everything.

I dont think we will get anything but if we did I'd bet my money on henchmen that are in both the GKs and SoB codex.


----------



## Azezel

Instinct tells me we'll not see anything before Games Day - and in fact, that we won't see anything at Games Day (my gut says 'crons at Games Day).


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> Allot of failcast is scheduled for August, the list was rather short though so we might see some of the henchmen in restic, like arcos and death cult. If we were to get anything it would be failcast, an IC or SC unless they are planning on resculpting everything.
> 
> I dont think we will get anything but if we did I'd bet my money on henchmen that are in both the GKs and SoB codex.


Honestly I still see a rerelease of at least the cannoness and the battle sisters box. Or it may be true with 5 all in one box as well.

Look the whole idea that they won't get anything rereleased or new just sounds odd. Why publish a rules update and not provide anything to up the hype of the army for the future. Lets think aout yes we do believe that what we have been seeing in the past with WD dexes is that they suck adn that they don't do anything to current line. Now if we all havnt noticed alot of things have been changing laetely and GW has been making some extremely bold moves as well. Look at it a price hike and embargo and the switch to resin as well. all very bold moves for a company to make esspecially all at once. Just think about it for a minute. 

Now we have a the sisters which hasnt had any kind of support in the past few years then suddenly BAM there is a new WD dex coming out. If they were going to try and generate sales at all they would be stupid to not do anything for the current line of models at least.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm going to put my money on getting a token release with the White Dwarf dex. Most likely a Finecast of an old model. Furthermore, the amount of models we get will be directly proportional to the amount of time it takes to get to a real Codex - the more models we get, the longer the wait will be.

Seriously, anything short of a full release to put us completely back into the boxed (instead of just blisters) business is pointless.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> Preorders are now only within the final week before they get released proper. We won't know until the final week of July or first week of August.


Storms of Magic went on pre-order last week with a release date of the 11th of next month if I read correctly.

Either way I'm trying this 'optimism' thing for a change. Failing that I'm working on my Fantasy army (yay Daemons!:biggrin.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> Just think about it for a minute.


If GW intended to release any models we would have gotten a proper release. Why release models for a WD release only to have that less a number of models for the real codex release?

If anything an old model in failcast like the Canoness or Saint Celestine, other than this I can only see the henchmen as a possible candidate.

We have rumours stating they are making plastic sisters, priest kit, repentia and penitent engine. This is basically enough for a first wave release, at the least when it comes to sisters as they haven't received anything for years unless you count that new WD stratagem thing no one will ever use.

I would be very happy if we saw these kits release with the WD dex but why would they do it this way? For WD sales?

It also doesn't make much sense from a business perspective not to release anything unless they are retarded enough to think this WD will induce enough hype that people will actually spend £80+ just for 2 troops and 1 HQ. I think it was around £40 for a single legal troop with a special weapon, VSS and Icon. So if you want special weapons on your troops you are looking at £100+ minimum.
If they redid them in finecast they would no doubt increase the price by 10-25% so £110-£125 just for the bare bones.

This entire thing just seems like another retarded move from GW but I honestly dont expect anything less at this point. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forwards to this WD dex just to see in what direction they are taking the sisters but that's mostly because I'm desperate enough for anything at all at this point.

If they do come out with finecast I still have 90% of my army still in blisters as I hate metal so I guess I could easily just go turn it in at the GW store in Stockholm.

I have loads of blisters I'm going to go exchange as soon as more "fine"cast models come out.


Small rumour:


Captain Ventris said:


> Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
> Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested... Two waves of Necrons are supposed to be released the weekends of Nov. 12 and Dec. 3rd. What models will be in what release is still being discussed, obviously the codex is in the first wave, but he also mentioned that warriors were getting re-cut with the scarabs removed and options added in their place. Scarab swarms are apparently going to a multi-part finecast kit that is more dynamicly posed than just scarabs hovering in place (I'd already done something similar where my scarabs are actuallt bursting from the ground)
> 
> Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
> 
> Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. Going with my normal setup, 2 x 10 Sisters including VSS, Meltagun and Heavy Flamer. Going purely by prices on the GW website:

1 Canoness: £8,20
2 x Sister Superior: 2 x £7,70 = £15,40
2 x Sister with Meltagun: 2 x £6,15 = £12,30
2 x Sister with Heavy Flamer: 2 x £8,70 = £17,40
Need 14 SoB with Bolter to fill out the ranks = 5 x 3 (1 left over) = 5 x £10,75 = £53,75


Total: £107,05

Note that it gets worse in other currencies. Taking what's probably the worst case it's 289 AUD, for instance, which according to Google is £188,57.

KA-CHING! unish:


----------



## Grogbart

Well, if they indeed bring out this WDex just so they can say, all 3rd Eds have been updated, they might as well bring out that Sisters of Battle Shrine as FC, just so they can say, every army recived FCs.

Now that I typed this, it doesn't feel so much as a joke anymore, but rather bad feeling!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If we use the pricing of the new DE Scourges we might get a price point for the Sisters 5 girl box, it is very similar in contents to what is rumoured to be in the SoB box. It has all the DE special weapons, backpacks (things you connect wings to) and wings.

For the same setup as above you would need:
1 Canoness: £8,20
4x Boxes of Sisters 4 x £15,50 = £62
So £70,2 for a bare minimum legal list, this is more than all Battleforces cost last I checked.

Just to waste time lets do a price comparison for minimum legal standard list.

Space Marines: £37 for 280pt
£14 Space Marine Commander
£23 Space Marine Tactical Squad
HQ: Space Marine Captain 100pt
Troops: 5 Tactical Squad x2 for 90pt each

Blood Angels: £37 for 280pt
£14 Space Marine Commander
£23 Space Marine Tactical Squad
HQ: Captain 100pt
Troops: 5 Tactical Squad x2 for 90pt each

Space Wolves: £37 for 250pt
£14 Space Marine Commander
£23 Space Wolves Pack
HQ: Space Marine Captain 100pt
Troops: 5 Tactical Squad x2 for 75pt each

Dark Eldar: £27,50 for 150pt
£9.50 Archon
£18 Kabalite Warriors
HQ: Archon 60pt
Troops: 2x 5 Kabalite Warriors for 90pt

Imperial Guard: £33.50 for 110pt
£15.50 Command Squad
£18 Shock Troops
HQ: Company Command Squad 50pt
Troops: 2x 5 Platoon Command Squad for 60pt

Orks: £48.30 for 180pt
£12.30 Warboss
£18 x2 Ork Boyz
HQ: Warboss 60pt
Troops: 2x Ork Boyz for 120pt

Tyranid: £72 for 270pt
£36 Hive Tyrant
£18 x2 Gaunts
HQ: Hive Tyrant 170pt
Troops: 2x 10 Gaunts for 100pt

I can't be bothered with the rest, did most 5E dexes except for GKs.
A bit of pointless math for you to dig your teeth into, rather interesting results though :crazy:
As you can see we end up next to the Tyranids in cost yet they get a MC.
I would hope to end up close to SM or Dark Eldar cost but how knows.
Do take into consideration that the Sisters minimum atm is 10Battle Sisters per troop, if they go down to 5min you can remove £31 from the cost.


----------



## Shandathe

Unlikely. 5 Sisters is a Celestian Squad


----------



## mahavira

It seems to me that new models for SoB (which I doubt exist, but whatever) would be more likely to come out in September than August - remember this is a two month deal, and the standard bearer for August is some new VC thing (having been a fan of the Necroscope books I actually mildly look forward to this). September's WD might even have a SoB cover (unlikely, but stranger things have happened).


----------



## SGMAlice

MadCowCrazy said:


> I already know the answer, GW hates women, it's that simple. They have provided nothing to get women into the game for god knows how many years now. Everyone with gf who play the game and girl gamers I know have either come into the game playing Sisters of Battle or been recommended to play Sisters as it's a girls army. The price point is just too steep for most people and the fact the army is so date and the lack of support means it's not worth starting them.


I started with Orks and have never left them. I did branch out into SM, Tau, IG and Chaos at one point but have dropped all but the IG as they never really appealed to me. I have wanted a SoB force for a while, admittedly beacause they are an all Female force.

I wouldn't say GW are biased against Female gamers or the Female gender as a whole, just that the majority of their player base is going to be Male so they play to what makes them the most money. We all know GW loves Money.

SGMAlice


----------



## MadCowCrazy

That's the truth isn't it 
You would think they would at least have one army that is more tailored towards the girl gamers.

Oh, thanks for linking me to your sig picture. I added a little to it when I sent it to Robin Cruddace regarding my faith system idea and general sisters idea.


----------



## Shandathe

I don't think the armies are tailored to boy gamers, actually... Not much, anyway. They're armies, they have heroes, they fight. Space Marines are GWs posterboys and they canonically can't be female... So other than increased Equal Opportunity Employment in, mainly, the Imperial Guard, I don't think you *can* tailor an army to girl gamers all that much. 

Unless you think Squad Chippendale led by Sergeant Beefcake fits the setting.


----------



## hungryugolino

Blood Angels.


----------



## Shandathe

It's not Twilight unless they sparkle dammit!

... and no, that was not an invitation for you to pull out a picture of Blood Angels with sparkling paint. Some horrors are not meant to be seen by mortal eyes.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Shandathe said:


> It's not Twilight unless they sparkle dammit!
> 
> ... and no, that was not an invitation for you to pull out a picture of Blood Angels with sparkling paint. Some horrors are not meant to be seen by mortal eyes.


Mines sparkles .... and dances :so_happy:










Burn out them eyeballs boooooyyyyyyyzzzzz.


----------



## Shandathe

Oh how I loathe thee, let me count the ways...


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> I don't think the armies are tailored to boy gamers, actually... Not much, anyway. They're armies, they have heroes, they fight. Space Marines are GWs posterboys and they canonically can't be female... So other than increased Equal Opportunity Employment in, mainly, the Imperial Guard, I don't think you *can* tailor an army to girl gamers all that much.
> 
> Unless you think Squad Chippendale led by Sergeant Beefcake fits the setting.


If you feel creative and are willing to annoy fanboys everywhere though you could create an army of females in large, bulky armor and play them as count-as Space Marines. :biggrin:

Let the nerd-rage begin. :so_happy:


----------



## HereticHammer01

hungryugolino said:


> Blood Angels.


+1

Will the announcement about it being a WD dex affect the number of plastic kits coming out? You'd think if they thought sisters of battle were going to sell they'd release a full codex.


----------



## Shandathe

Assume no models at all, as stated earlier in the thread. They're not believed to be done, though a token (finecast re-release or terrain) model or two might be added to the WDex release.

Also note that the more models we get now, the longer the wait for an actual codex can be expected to be.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Shandathe said:


> Assume no models at all, as stated earlier in the thread. They're not believed to be done, though a token (finecast re-release or terrain) model or two might be added to the WDex release.
> 
> Also note that the more models we get now, the longer the wait for an actual codex can be expected to be.


Well in that case I hope they take even more shit off the shelf and go door to door and remove them from peoples houses. That way we can get the codex even quicker!!!


----------



## Shandathe

No, that wouldn't help  Reasoning is that a real Codex would be accompanied by a good number of models, so if they're not giving us new models now they're saving them for the real Codex (and thus, giving themselves less time for one). 

If we're getting new things now, chances are this placeholder is going to have to last us a while...


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> No, that wouldn't help  Reasoning is that a real Codex would be accompanied by a good number of models, so if they're not giving us new models now they're saving them for the real Codex (and thus, giving themselves less time for one).
> 
> If we're getting new things now, chances are this placeholder is going to have to last us a while...


*sniff sniff* I smell logic! Everyone out of the internet!

On a more serious note, I do like this theory.


----------



## Shandathe

Caveat emptor. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. :grin:


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Caveat emptor. Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. :grin:


Hmmmm....so what you're saying is to get the right answer we need to use some kind of anti-logic?

.....BRILLIANT!

In that case I think I know how we can figure out what GW's real plans are. But first we need to find someone who thinks with the same sort of logic as an Ork and then remove half their brain. THEN we'll be close.


----------



## Shandathe

What I'm saying it that while I firmly believe my theory's right, it's based on my logic, and thus may be wrong, as GW logic seems... a little off. Your method for figuring out their real plans may be the correct one


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. Picked up a WD today... The Cities of Death stratagem for Sisters is interesting. If we get Faith Points for each faithful unit each turn, as rumoured, it seems rather weak. For a workable Stratagem, I'd think Faith Points would need to be more potent and rarer than said so far.


----------



## TheSpore

Well now a new breakdown on all the hubub... How about them sisters I wonder if GW is gonna do anything to support the army for once when that WD dex is out


----------



## Shandathe

Nope. But at least we're likely to get some better unit point costs and a WD batrep out of it.

... Am I paranoid for thinking that I suddenly know why for the past year or so the new army is allowed to LOSE in those?


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> Nope. But at least we're likely to get some better unit point costs and a WD batrep out of it.
> 
> ... Am I paranoid for thinking that I suddenly know why for the past year or so the new army is allowed to LOSE in those?


Who knows when it comes to the secret squirells at GW... Anytime they do something odd I just well thats GW again, Freakin weirdos!!!

IDK I have a feeling there gonna do something with the SoBs in the next couple of months, and I don't mean fluff raping either...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

All we can do is Pray and have Faith in the Emperor... ironic isn't it :crazy:


----------



## Shandathe

I have Faith in the Emperor. 

I have a problem being asked to have Faith in GW though. Though I guess I really should give them a chance to do something positive...


----------



## TheSpore

well in there case hopefully several worngs might make a right


----------



## Kettu

Two wrongs don't make a right, But three rights make a left.

---

Way back in third ed, the Sisters came out after Three entirely new armies came out.
With the current Hrud and Chaos Legion rumours, it appears it'll be the same thing all over again.

Sorry, I don't have anything useful to share.


----------



## Doelago

For the love of the Emperor, could anyone confirm to me whatever the hell we will be getting new plastics or old metals turned into finecast with the Sisters?

And fuck, why a WD update? They deserve better...


----------



## Vhalyar

Doelago said:


> And fuck, why a WD update? They deserve better...


Because it's a stopgap measure until they can get their full book.


----------



## Shandathe

Or so we're told by people who are not actually part of GW.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I can answer some of that.

Why WD update? Rumour is that the Necrons were delayed, they were scheduled for September but due to being pushed back there was now an empty 40k slot that needed filling. As the Sister were still in mid production and playtesting they decided to put the rules they had written so far into a WD split over 2 issues.

The WD rules may or may not be final but will most likely not contain the rules for any new units other than henchmen though most of them are just copy paste from the GKs updated versions of them (aka Death Cult, Arco, probably Crusaders and throw in the minor ordos as well with Hospitallers, Dialogus etc).

As for models I would not expect us to get anything Sister specific as that would be counter productive as that leaves no models for the real codex release early next year.
What we might get though are finecast Arcos, Death Cult and the rest of the GK Henchmen that may be used in both dexes.
A failcast Canoness or other HQ could be expected but I personally doubt it, there is no reason for GW to provide anything for the Sisters players yet.

As for when the real dex comes out you can expect plastic Sisters, Repentia, Priest and Penitent Engines. Probably some new kit as well or we might just get the a Sister specific Valkyrie or some such. Failcast Exorcist might rear an ugly head but there arn't really any rumours about this unit yet.

This is all we have so far to go on, we should get the first WD rules leaks at the end of next week or the week after. Until then all we can do is wait.

If you dont like this move by GW you can always send them a letter to tell them how you feel...


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> If you dont like this move by GW you can always send them a letter to tell them how you feel...


:rofl: Someone should go and do that right now.


----------



## Azezel

Speaking of writing to people.

Last week I contacted Matthew Farrer, Auther of the Shirra Calpurnia serries and the only BL author who's both heard of the Sororitas and doesn't hate them.

(And if you're unfortunate enough to have never read Crossfire, go and do that now. I'll wait.)

He was kind enough to reply, finishing his massage with the following:



Matthew Farrer said:


> Thank you also for the vote of confidence on more Sisters stories. Somewhere in the metaphorical trunk I have an outline for another story about Sister Romille, but I’m afraid I can’t make any predictions about whether anything will become of it.


Sister Superior Aurean Romille is a Celestian of the Order of the Sacred Rose - she has a modest role in Crossfire and is portrayed as devout, intelligent and entirely competent. A class act.

As tenuous as that is, damn I am actually excited.


Farrer also said that it was he who invented the sarissa (in the 40k sense) - which is cool. Of course, in his books it's a spike-bayonette with a power-field, which would be nice to have in-game, but there you go.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> finishing his massage with the following


Where exactly did you meet him? I didn't know he ran a massage parlour as well...


I'd say James Swallows is one of the few authors to actually acknowledge the sisters. He is the only author I know of who has actually written a book entirely dedicated to the Sisters of Battle with Faith and Fire which was the first BL book I ever read. I have the culpura omnibus infront of me but have so far only read like 50 pages. Need to work my way through it it seems.

Swallows has an audio book coming in October and the Sanctuary 101 book coming in December. They were both scheduled for September initially but had to be postponed due to fluff changes to the necrons.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I have the culpura omnibus infront of me but have so far only read like 50 pages. Need to work my way through it it seems.


Hell yes you do.

Anyway - I contacted Farrer through his website. I suppose it couldn't hurt for more people to express interest in a putative Farrer Sisters novel. Don't nag the man, though.


As I said, Swallows' _Faith & Fire_ was not an unqualified success with Sisters fans but I, for one, will forgive him almost anything for trying, and shall buy both the novel and audio thing as soon as they are released.


----------



## Shandathe

Faith and Fire suffered because it tried to explore too many facets at once, I feel. I have good hopes for the Sanctuary 101 book (except for the eventual inevitable outcome, obviously) I'll see about picking up Crossfire.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Faith and Fire suffered because it tried to explore too many facets at once, I feel. I have good hopes for the Sanctuary 101 book (except for the eventual inevitable outcome, obviously) I'll see about picking up Crossfire.


From what I understand it's not the actual Sanc 101 massacre but they are trying to rebuild but the grumpy Necron neighbours can't stand the noise so they rally once again :crazy:


----------



## Shandathe

So on the one side, we've got the Necrons, who are about to get a new Codex which always results in GW promoting an army's awesome level. They've been a nigh-unstoppable force in nearly every book they appear in as well.

In the second corner, we've got the Sisters of Battle, who already lost this battle once, are known for being martyred by GW as well as dying in a plethora of ways in every book they appear in.

No, inevitable outcome sounds about right


----------



## Azezel

Sooo... When does white Dwarf normally fall off the back of lorries?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Last month around this time on WD ended up in the hands of a guy. Doubt GW will make the same mistake again. Kinda ironic that it's the month before the WD dex that gets delivered too early, it should have been this months WD.


----------



## Tahiri

Not having a subscription and not paying much attention to White Dwarf other then to glance through it occasionally for battle reports, which issues exactly are our stuff showing up in?

The "August Issue," which would be #379? and would supposedly be on sale probably around July 30th?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tahiri said:


> Not having a subscription and not paying much attention to White Dwarf other then to glance through it occasionally for battle reports, which issues exactly are our stuff showing up in?
> 
> The "August Issue," which would be #379? and would supposedly be on sale probably around July 30th?


Yes, the issue that arrives this month will contain the first part, fluff and unit entries. Next months issue will probably contain wargear and points costs so you will need both issues to be able to play.

It wouldn't surprise me if what we get isn't even playable until we get the Sep issue. Were you able to use the BA WD dex with the first issue? It was 2 part as well right?

So we will all wonder for over a month if the updated rules are any good because we wont know the points costs? Sounds like something GW would do :crazy:


----------



## The Sullen One

I think the BA dex was all one issue Madcow and you're probably right in that we'll have to wait till September for something playable.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Nah the BA one was split thus. In the first one (June) it had the lis of all the units and some fluff. The second issue (July) was the points cost for everything and the wargear.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Argh! Someone receive the WD already and post all the information! This waiting is really frustrating!


----------



## Necrosis

Indeed, the lack of rumors is killing me.


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> Indeed, the lack of rumors is killing me.


Indeed. One would think there would be more rumors as we neared the release date, not less.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Another weekend with no rumours... at least we are on the home stretch now, 19 days to go so we should get most of the info this week...hopefully 

GAH! Someone send me the damn info! :crazy:


----------



## turel2

So then...

Coffee anyone?:boredom:


----------



## jannypan

For a workable Stratagem, I'd think Faith Points would need to be more potent and rarer than said so far.


----------



## SGMAlice

Patience my friends. It will come 

SGMAlice


----------



## TheSpore

SGMAlice said:


> Patience my friends. It will come
> 
> SGMAlice


Patientce whats that!!!


----------



## Dawnstar

TheSpore said:


> Patientce whats that!!!


You should probably ask someone who's played Dark Eldar for a while that question


----------



## jaysen

I heard from a friend that the WD codex is going to be somewhat of a dissappointment as far as uberness goes, but have some nice fluff and artwork.

I've also heard a rumour that the full blown codex and new models won't be out till next year.


----------



## TheSpore

jaysen said:


> I heard from a friend that the WD codex is going to be somewhat of a dissappointment as far as uberness goes, but have some nice fluff and artwork.
> 
> I've also heard a rumour that the full blown codex and new models won't be out till next year.


as if I didn't see this coming. There are two armies GW trully hates above all its chaos and sisters. Sisters more so


----------



## Synack

Honestly, I'm not going to judge the SoB codex fully, till 6th ed comes out.


----------



## TheSpore

Im gonna judge it like crazy until they get the proper release they deserve. If the damn DE can get some justice then there is no reason the SoBs cant get some justice either. As of now I feel like I have wasted hundreds of dollars on an army that hasn't had an update in god knows how long. 

Sorry I might sound a lil bitter but it does anger me when armies like DE and the GK can get so much attention but armies like Chaos, SoBs, Tau, and the Necrons get nothing esspecially when there dexes are as old as they are.


----------



## Synack

TheSpore said:


> Im gonna judge it like crazy until they get the proper release they deserve. If the damn DE can get some justice then there is no reason the SoBs cant get some justice either. As of now I feel like I have wasted hundreds of dollars on an army that hasn't had an update in god knows how long.
> 
> Sorry I might sound a lil bitter but it does anger me when armies like DE and the GK can get so much attention but armies like Chaos, SoBs, Tau, and the Necrons get nothing esspecially when there dexes are as old as they are.


I feel your pain, SoB is my first army and I'd love to play them again and dust off my models.


----------



## TheSpore

Synack said:


> I feel your pain, SoB is my first army and I'd love to play them again and dust off my models.


Yep Ive had them since 2005 or 6 cant remember and I use to love the Army


----------



## Azezel

Synack said:


> I feel your pain, SoB is my first army and I'd love to play them again and dust off my models.





TheSpore said:


> Yep Ive had them since 2005 or 6 cant remember and I use to love the Army


Then play them, now.

I'm serious, there's nothing stopping you.


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Then play them, now.
> 
> I'm serious, there's nothing stopping you.


they need a massive overhall and a a repaintiing just havnt decided on if i wanna use the orirginal scheme or a tottally new scheme


----------



## Synack

Azezel said:


> Then play them, now.
> 
> I'm serious, there's nothing stopping you.


I don't have the model count and I'm not buying new SoB in blisters of 3. I'll wait for the new dex and *hopefully* new models.


----------



## andrewm9

Synack said:


> I don't have the model count and I'm not buying new SoB in blisters of 3. I'll wait for the new dex and *hopefully* new models.


This sort of statement isn't uncommon which is why I think the WD dex is a big fail. For every one person I see say they can't wait for a new WD dex I've seen 2 or 3 who say the current price structure for the army is impeding them from playing Sisters. There is no other army whose basic troops ahve been in blisters of 3 as long as this one. Its ridiculous. Though I reserve judgement on its effectiveness until i see the final product I can't see how GW would feel this will ever be a win for them.


----------



## TheSpore

Its called sating the fans so we will shut up


----------



## andrewm9

TheSpore said:


> Its called sating the fans so we will shut up


Then I hope its good as Sisters' players seem pretty vocal given the amount of posts any rumors topic produces. Becuase if its bad, we really won't shut up about it. Which will probbaly annoy many other posters


----------



## TheSpore

andrewm9 said:


> Then I hope its good as Sisters' players seem pretty vocal given the amount of posts any rumors topic produces. Becuase if its bad, we really won't shut up about it. Which will probbaly annoy many other posters


We gamers were never known to go quietly in the night


----------



## Shandathe

The problem is that the Codex can't sate us because the problem is MODELS. I've said it before, Codex: Witch Hunters can be worked with (for all that it's showing it's age), but due to the pricing of the current blister-only status, I'd rather save up for new models - or use it on other systems - than spend it on expanding my Sister army. My conscience has dictated me to warn people on the forum about starting a Sisters army under current financial conditions... Which is NOT a good thing.


----------



## Grogbart

The only thing I can see, the upcoming WD (being only part one of two) do, is to grant the Sisters' players a token of goodwill by setting straight some of the fluff-rape the SoB had to endure in recent years and regain them some of their repute and honour.

That as a first step, followed by a decent WDex completion in the second part and GW might actually get back to zero with all the Sisters' fans, once they release a good Codex and proper models for the Sisters.

Anything less and GW will once again, prove themselves unworthy of the faith, sisters' players have set in them for so many years, as some GW's most loyal customers.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

You know what I really want to see in the next Sisters Codex? A snippet of how the Sisters came across a small cabal of Ultramarines that were falling to the darkside and had to give them the Emperor's Mercy, or fry them up with some melta weapons ... just so that it is broken off in Mat Ward's ass. Fuck, I am hateful towards him.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Hello.

I was really happy when I saw the last page of this month WD. But I'm becoming sad and impatient: we'll have 2 hard months ahead! 

*July:* waiting for August WD, but it will only be the background, armoury and special rules. ("*I want my SoB codex now!*" phase)​
*August:* We'll be jumping and singing happily but soon we'll become impatient because the list with FOC options and points will be in the next September WD. ("*What? I want the list and points of my SoB codex now!*" phase)​
Then until september WD we'll cant play ours sisters armies with the next codex. TWO MONTHS MORE! :ireful2:

I hate the fact of a codex in 2 deliveries. :angry:


----------



## Azezel

OIIIIIIO said:


> You know what I really want to see in the next Sisters Codex? A snippet of how the Sisters came across a small cabal of Ultramarines that were falling to the darkside and had to give them the Emperor's Mercy, or fry them up with some melta weapons ... just so that it is broken off in Mat Ward's ass. Fuck, I am hateful towards him.


Perhaps you should try to look out a short story by Ben Counter called _Daemonblood_. It concerns an Ultramarine who becomes a champion of Nurgle and a Seraphim called Sister Aescarion who hunts him down.

Spoilers:

In short, the smurfs and Sisters are both fighting on some planet the name of which escapes me, and Aescarion & one Marine encounter a greater (in every sense of the word) Daemon of Nurgle. Said Daemon attempts to seduce both, and succeeds in the case of the Marine. Aescarion resists and escapes by blowing up her jumppack and hunts the Marine on and off for several decades.

In the end, she doesn't simply find him, but _redeems_ him. In this case, his redemption is to be implanted with a big bomb and carry that to the Daemon, killing both.



Counter (like all BL authors) has mistreated the Sisters at times, but it is a good read.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

While we wait for the leaks here is a Sisters of Battle Terminator :crazy:


----------



## Azezel

Ye gods! And I thought the Red Marines had bad nipples.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> While we wait for the leaks here is a Sisters of Battle Terminator :crazy:


You know Im not much of a chubby chaser but I think something like this would be a cool addition to the sisters army


----------



## Irbian

this... is awesome! Without the weird boobs it could be a nice GK character


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> this... is awesome! Without the weird boobs it could be a nice GK character


Says the guy with a sister scalp on his avatar :crazy:

Technically shouldn't Sisters have some sort of Terminator armour? In the age of apostasy or whatever it was called when Vandire took in the Daughters of the Emperor it does say in the fluff that the Sisters received the best gear the Ecclesiarchy could get their hands on or some such.

Shouldn't they have some sort of poor mans terminator armour? Like 2+ save and S&P but with no Inv save? Then again the new rules would give them a 6+ inv as standard.


----------



## Irbian

its a camouflage hat 

about the terminator armour... I think is for the size. do you imagine a sister inside a terminator armour? Comparing the size of a sister next to a space marine...


----------



## TheSpore

I say why shouldn't we have a terminator type armour hell even the squats had that stuff


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Says the guy with a sister scalp on his avatar :crazy:
> 
> Technically shouldn't Sisters have some sort of Terminator armour? In the age of apostasy or whatever it was called when Vandire took in the Daughters of the Emperor it does say in the fluff that the Sisters received the best gear the Ecclesiarchy could get their hands on or some such.
> 
> Shouldn't they have some sort of poor mans terminator armour? Like 2+ save and S&P but with no Inv save? Then again the new rules would give them a 6+ inv as standard.



No for two reasons.

a) We're not Space Marines and I'd like our new 'dex to increase the differences between Sororitas and Astartes gear, not shrink it.

b) As I understand it, Terminator Armour hasn't been manufactured in quantity since the Heresy. The technology to do so is known to only a few Magos on a few Forge Worlds, if that. Possibly it is known to Mars alone.


----------



## Irbian

I dont know what are you talking about. Sq=]Censored by Inquisition[=ts? I know no army with that name sir


----------



## andrewm9

Azezel said:


> No for two reasons.
> 
> a) We're not Space Marines and I'd like our new 'dex to increase the differences between Sororitas and Astartes gear, not shrink it.
> 
> b) As I understand it, Terminator Armour hasn't been manufactured in quantity since the Heresy. The technology to do so is known to only a few Magos on a few Forge Worlds, if that. Possibly it is known to Mars alone.


While its not terminator armor, I could see Sisters having some sort of artificer type armor. After all its finely made from the best materials. In my fan-dex I called it Blessed armor and gave it a 6+ invuln save but nothing says its has to have an invuln save to go with it.


----------



## Grogbart

TheSpore said:


> I say why shouldn't we have a terminator type armour hell even the squats had that stuff


Indeed, the answer is already present in the question. I mean, look at how far the squats got with them!

Besides, I'd like to think, that by taking their faith into account, a Sister of Battle is actually better protected by an ordinary set of power armour, that has been blessed by having been worn by some remarkable fellow sisters, than being clad in the finest of creations of some Machine God worshiping tech-priest. Alternatively some sanctified cloak is in order too, for that matter, like the St Aspira one, we currently have as an artificer armour substitute. Only thing I don't like about it, is the specific name for a piece of wargear you may have twice in your army. I once played an army like that and had to endure some silly jokes about "women attending the same party in identical dresses". 
So why not call it 'sacred cloak' or even better have some "sacred armour" and reserve 'Cloak of St Aspira' to some special cloak worn by some Special Character?

An while I'm at it, I'd love to see something similar for master-crafted weapons, as well. 
It's not in the rulebook, so its got to be included anyway. And as far as I know, none of the "master-crafted" rules currently out there, work on template weapons!:biggrin:


----------



## TheSpore

Grogbart said:


> An while I'm at it, I'd love to see something similar for master-crafted weapons, as well.
> It's not in the rulebook, so its got to be included anyway. And as far as I know, none of the "master-crafted" rules currently out there, work on template weapons!:biggrin:


I take your are refering to my old master crafted heavy flamer joke You know the flamer that re-rolls misses.


----------



## Azezel

andrewm9 said:


> While its not terminator armor, I could see Sisters having some sort of artificer type armor. After all its finely made from the best materials. In my fan-dex I called it Blessed armor and gave it a 6+ invuln save but nothing says its has to have an invuln save to go with it.


I quite agree. In fact, while mechanically my Canonness wears the cloak of St. Aspira, I've always considered her to be wearing Artificier Armour in fluff terms.

I've also said in this thread that Celestians should come stock with AA.



Grogbart said:


> So why not call it 'sacred cloak' or even better have some "sacred armour" and reserve 'Cloak of St Aspira' to some special cloak worn by some Special Character?


That's what it was, originally. Worn by St. Praxedes.



Grogbart said:


> An while I'm at it, I'd love to see something similar for master-crafted weapons, as well.
> It's not in the rulebook, so its got to be included anyway. And as far as I know, none of the "master-crafted" rules currently out there, work on template weapons!:biggrin:


My own suggested fix was to include Sisters Pronatus as an option. The Orders Pronatus deal with sacred relics and should certainly be able to supply some funky guns to their Militant Sisters

Attach a Sister Pronatus to a squad and all the weapons in that squad count as blessed/twin-linked/master-crafted/sparkly/whatever.

Or possibly a named Sister Pronatus who carries some god-tier archaotech Sacred Gun of Arse-Kicking+5 and makes all 'trinity' weapons funky. She'd be like a cross between a Master of the Forge and Vulkan He-Man.

The possibilities are endless, but I'm guessing we'll get nothing of the kind.


----------



## Grogbart

TheSpore said:


> I take your are refering to my old master crafted heavy flamer joke You know the flamer that re-rolls misses.


Sorry, no. Was it in this threat?

And while I'm at it:

Sorry, andrewm9 to coincide with you, on the artificer armour thing!
As for your fan-dex, wanna see, wanna see, wanna see!!! Do you have it available somewhere?


----------



## Matheau

TheSpore said:


> I say why shouldn't we have a terminator type armour hell even the squats had that stuff


Squats also traded with Orks and Eldar, refused the Adeptus Mechanicus access to technology, hoarded STCs, used alien technology, refused to acknowledge the Emperor as a God, and had their own religion. The Imperium was fine with all of those things, despite them wiping out anyone else that did so much as one of those things.

I wouldn't really mark Squats as a gold standard for what anyone should have fluff wise.


----------



## andrewm9

Grogbart said:


> Sorry, no. Was it in this threat?
> 
> And while I'm at it:
> 
> Sorry, andrewm9 to coincide with you, on the artificer armour thing!
> As for your fan-dex, wanna see, wanna see, wanna see!!! Do you have it available somewhere?


I posted it to the Sisters of Battle yahoo group a few months ago but I can send you a copy if you want to contact me privately. It was a labor of love still in progress but I stopped when I heard about the new WD codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If anyone is interested in feathered scourge wings for their Seraphim I have a total of 20 sets I'm looking to trade or sell. I would prefer to trade them for the bat wings that come in the scourge boxes.

So what conversion ideas do you guys have?
As my armies are all based on the Ordo Sepulturum and a rather undead theme I'm going for as much death and undeath as I can with them.


----------



## Azkaellon

MadCowCrazy said:


> If anyone is interested in feathered scourge wings for their Seraphim I have a total of 20 sets I'm looking to trade or sell. I would prefer to trade them for the bat wings that come in the scourge boxes.
> 
> So what conversion ideas do you guys have?
> As my armies are all based on the Ordo Sepulturum and a rather undead theme I'm going for as much death and undeath as I can with them.


Those wings also would work great for making custom Swooping Hawks or Neat Blood Angel Chars. 

Back on topic though i can't wait to see the new sisters stuff, I honestly hope they keep the allies rule since converting them to sisters of silence would be amazing!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Allies rule will be 100% gone, that's what the henchmen are for now afaik. I never liked the allies rules simply because it felt more like a crutch than a cool feature. Heck most people just allied in a DH Inquisitor to get a board wide psy-hood any mystics. There were pretty much no reason to ally in from the WH codex, a friend of mine allied in some sister repentia as a bullet magnet for his IG but that's a damn expensive bullet magnet.
Then again since the latest IG codex there has been no need to ally in them any more.

Sure Sisters could ally in some platoons and sometimes that felt necessary to get some long range AV.

GAH!!! Give me that damn info now?! I've been waiting for so damn long....


----------



## Azkaellon

MadCowCrazy said:


> Allies rule will be 100% gone, that's what the henchmen are for now afaik. I never liked the allies rules simply because it felt more like a crutch than a cool feature. Heck most people just allied in a DH Inquisitor to get a board wide psy-hood any mystics. There were pretty much no reason to ally in from the WH codex, a friend of mine allied in some sister repentia as a bullet magnet for his IG but that's a damn expensive bullet magnet.
> Then again since the latest IG codex there has been no need to ally in them any more.
> 
> Sure Sisters could ally in some platoons and sometimes that felt necessary to get some long range AV.
> 
> GAH!!! Give me that damn info now?! I've been waiting for so damn long....


Don't worry you will be waiting only another 6 - 18 months


----------



## Troublehalf

I can't wait either. Both the GK and SoB are my favourite armies in both looks and fluff. I always wanted them updated and when the GK got their updated I had a nerd-gasm and was tempted to buy a huge army of them. I have not collected 40k for 12-15 years. I have a huge Lizardmen army and always wanted to go back to 40k to play with my mate (due to my illness I can't walk very far so can't go to GW for games).

I loved SoB in DoW: SoulStorm, they were a fun addition to a primary male dominated galaxy. I loved their armor apperance and the machines they had. I did wish they got a Predator type tank model, but they didn't... they might have one in rules but I've never read them.

I always wanted to make an squad of Repentias, but completely naked. This is because I saw the fluff around them makes them seem like the punishment of going into battle completely naked would inspire them even further to do the Emperor proud. They are basically naked in the models now, save for the cloth tabard, but that's how I always pictured them. A bit like the Penitant engine, same goes for that. I also saw that as a sort of pseudo-sexual thing, at least in the game the noise the unit made when you moved them sounded like a female orgasm and it was very strange to hear as they wade in to smash people up.

Still that's just me. Either way is fine. I just heard/read that SoB are the whipping girls of the 40k universe. They are like the red shirted guy in Star Trek, always dying and loosing the glory to some other Imperium army. In the GK fluff, it says the GK killed thousands of Sisters just to create a magic spell thing to kill a daemon. If that isn't being mean to them in terms of fluff I don't know!

I hope they are good... I love them purely because they are different, not the same. I hope GW can see that, but I doubt it.


----------



## jaysen

TheSpore said:


> I say why shouldn't we have a terminator type armour hell even the squats had that stuff


Umm, because Sisters don't have the black carapace implant required to control terminator armor? I agree they should have some sort of 2+/5+ type of upgrade, but it should be of a different sort than SM tactical dreadnought armor.


----------



## TeDasCuen

jaysen said:


> Umm, because Sisters don't have the black carapace implant required to control terminator armor? I agree they should have some sort of 2+/5+ type of upgrade, but it should be of a different sort than SM tactical dreadnought armor.


This is wrong. You don't need the skin implant to wear a power armour or a terminator armour: Inquisitors can wear power armours and Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can also wear terminator armours and none of them have Astartes implants. 

The skin implant for Astartes is only an "interface" to use the "extra features" of the armour.

Terminator armours are rare and valuable, this is why only few organizations can dispose of them: Ordo Malleus, Astartes chapters... And this last usually don't have enough for his all first company veterans.

Really I don't care if SoB can wear terminator armours, to have faith in the Emperor is the only I need. icknose:


----------



## Grogbart

jaysen said:


> Umm, because Sisters don't have the black carapace implant required to control terminator armor?


Do Ordo Malleus Inquisitors require a black carapace to operate terminator armour?

Also, I think there is no need for some new terminator-style armour for the Sisters (or actual terminator armour itself). 
For ICs there is some artificer armour substitute (St Aspira-style cloak, sacred/blessed/holy armour or something alike) and a (hopefully) standard Rosarius. Including ICs normally don't get heavy weapons, the only difference gamewise would be, not being allowed to do sweeping advances and MAYBE being allowed firing a bolter at full range while moving and assaulting after firing it, IF a bolter should be allowed on such armour, which isn't the case on normal TA!

As for whole units, there are tons of alternatives available. You want relentless, make it an act of faith or screw around with slow and purposeful (I could very well picture Sisters, slowly marching, firing their weapons to the fullest, while reciting ancient prayers or singing some ecclesiarcal hymns!)
If you want a unit with 2+ Armour saves, I could see a Celestian Retinue having the regular option on AA-substitutes, while I also like Azezel's idea of a Sister Pronatus, suppling a whole squad of Sisters with a set of 'funky' relic armours.

But of course, that's only my preference!


----------



## Kettu

On the subject of Termi armour, people do realise there is suits of them on every ship in the Imperium?

Termi Armour is more or less modified body armour worn by people that need to work on and spot repair Plasma Reactors whilst they are turned on.


----------



## Troublehalf

Kettu said:


> On the subject of Termi armour, people do realise there is suits of them on every ship in the Imperium?
> 
> Termi Armour is more or less modified body armour worn by people that need to work on and spot repair Plasma Reactors whilst they are turned on.


This. Terminator Armor was originally made to operate saftly in Plasma Reactors. Some were just modified to become armor used in battle, that is why they are so valuable, its because while there are plenty of "Work" suits there are not many "War" suits. At least, that is what I believe.... as they lost the blueprints to build the modified Terminator armor, they only had the remaining few thousand suits left.


----------



## TeDasCuen

The terminator armour have its origin in the engineers working suits for hostile environments. 
The current terminator armour is an adaptation for battle purpose from the Great Crusade, so that's not exactly the same. icknose:
They are expensive in materials and time of development.

For a more accurate details: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_armour :read:


----------



## SGMAlice

MadCowCrazy said:


> While we wait for the leaks here is a Sisters of Battle Terminator :crazy:


That is Awesome. The word 'Madonna' should be worked into its name some how XD

However, as people have already said: The Sisters have Artificer Armor and other items that give them comparable protection/stats so i don't see a need to put Tactical Dreadnought Armor into the new Codex.

Artificer Armor and a Rosarius gives better protection if i recall correctly: 2+/4++

As for having squads of Sisters with that equipment just like there are squads of Terminators... Some sort of Veteran Sister Squad akin to Sternguard...?

SGMAlice


----------



## Synack

Celestians could fill a vets sort of roll where you can kit out each model differently. All "current" codexes allow you to do that with the elites. Look at GK paladins and purifiers.


----------



## GrizBe

I'll point out that sister don't have terminator armor as they aren't altered with the various implants etc that marines have, so don't have the technological connection ports in their bodies to be able to properly interface with such an armor.

That said, since they are meant to be 3rd in tech gear behind The GK's, then normal marines... you think that Sisters would have something advanced like TA.


----------



## oiad

They don't... yet. But that's not to say it isn't possible to provide such a change in the fluff. Think this has been noted before but Inquisitors have long be using Terminator Armour wherever they can get their hands on it. As with Power Armour, you don't necessarily need to be a speesh mahreen. Still it probably would involve undergoing some kind of augmentative procedure.


----------



## GrizBe

Yeah.. what inquistors i can remember that wear PA and TA in fluff are noted as having bionic implants.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I know I've read somewhere that the Sisters received the best gear that could be afforded by the Ecclesiarchy but I'm not sure if this was during Vandires reign and it was on his behalf they were equipped this way or if it was in regards to the more resent fluff. Is it more a question of cost than availability perhaps?

Then again the power armour that the Sisters wear might be state of the art as well since it's power armour for the average Joe. I'm sure you could fit the same type on any Imperial guardsman, heck I'm sure there has to be some HQ, Commissar or similar that can wear it.

Then we have the Godwyn-Deaz Pattern bolters, these must be rather advanced tech as they can be wielded by the Sisters, I'm sure the power armour helps but afaik they are not as large as the standard SM equivalents. They just fire the same type of ammo.

I guess it could be argued that these bolters could have other properties, like being assault 2 instead of rapid fire or perhaps longer range. Allot of them come with scopes but these are just for looks afaik, heck there is a model wielding a flamer with a scope for some long range flamethrower sniping?









Celestians are the elite of the elite when it comes to the Sisters (or were Seraphim even more so?) so one could assume them to having amongst the best gear the Sisters can get. I wouldn't mind them being like sternguard or whatever those SM guys who can take combi weapons for 5pt each are called.

I think this sums up how I'm feeling at the moment
in regards to the Sisters of Battle​


----------



## SGMAlice

:laugh: Sniper Flamer. Burning Head Shot 

Celestian/Seraphim, all with Artificer Armor and a Rosarius? Combi Weapons? = Terminators of the SoB.

Who knows. We will find out soon enough. Patience.

SGMAlice

Edit: Wasn't quite clear about the correlation between Terminators and the Celestian/Seraphim.


----------



## Azkaellon

SGMAlice said:


> :laugh: Sniper Flamer. Burning Head Shot
> 
> Celestian/Seraphim, all with Artificer Armor and a Rosarius? Combi Weapons?
> 
> Terminators of the SoB.
> 
> Who knows. We will find out soon enough. Patience.
> 
> SGMAlice


Oh God NO! Flamer snipers makes me brain hurt >[email protected] , As would SOB terminators D:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SGMAlice said:


> Who knows. We will find out soon enough. Patience.


This logic is flawed!


----------



## Irbian

You know what? I dont find silly at all a sniper with flaming bullets 

What about penitent engines with flamestorm cannons?

Better then... celestian with flamestorm cannons!

Even better... hand flamestorm cannons!!!


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I know I've read somewhere that the Sisters received the best gear that could be afforded by the Ecclesiarchy but I'm not sure if this was during Vandires reign and it was on his behalf they were equipped this way or if it was in regards to the more resent fluff. Is it more a question of cost than availability perhaps?


With the possible exception of the Adeptus Terra the Ministorum is certainly the wealthiest outfit in the Imperium. Vandire set the Sororitas up with the best gear possible and that at least has not changed. If it can actually _be_ bought, then the Sisters have it.

However, given the proverbially rocky relationship between the Ministorum and the Mechanicus, the things which cannot be bought are much harder to secure.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Then we have the Godwyn-Deaz Pattern bolters, these must be rather advanced tech as they can be wielded by the Sisters, I'm sure the power armour helps but afaik they are not as large as the standard SM equivalents. They just fire the same type of ammo.


It's never been stated explicitly, but it is strongly implied, that the Godwyn-De'az boltgun is almost identical to the Astartes Godwyn boltgun. It's likely that the sole difference is a human-sized handgrip and trigger assembly.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I guess it could be argued that these bolters could have other properties, like being assault 2 instead of rapid fire or perhaps longer range. Allot of them come with scopes but these are just for looks afaik,


History will show that I am not a Marine fanboy, but let's be honest the Sororitas have no business weilding better boltguns than the Marines. As-good-as? Fine, but not better.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Celestians are the elite of the elite when it comes to the Sisters (or were Seraphim even more so?) so one could assume them to having amongst the best gear the Sisters can get. I wouldn't mind them being like sternguard or whatever those SM guys who can take combi weapons for 5pt each are called.


I agree. I'd like to see a bluid-your-own-Celestian buffet sort of thing. Each model in the squad being able to select unique wargear including Artificier Armour, Rosarius, Combi-Weapon, Power Weapon, Eviscerator, dual-pistols (bolt/plasma/flamer/inferno) you name it.

That'd truelly reflect their elite status and allow us to kit out a squad for almost anything.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The rumours are saying that Celestians come with 2A base and reroll to hit faith, I would rather have seen reroll to wound as it is their strength that will be their limiting factor and not the ability to hit.

If they can get 2 CCW then they will basically be T3 orks with 3+ save, if there is a way to increase strength to 5 like before they might be really good in CC but that's still to be seen.


----------



## jaysen

I'd like to see build your own uber-elite squads also, but they will have to come with a hefty pricetag. And, I don't agree with giving an entire squad a Rosarius. In the fluff, the Rosarius is made with lost technology, so there are a very finite number. Also, a 4+ invulnerable save that doesn't take a weapon slot, such as a storm shield, should be reserved for those unique leaders of formations.


----------



## The Sullen One

MadCowCrazy said:


> While we wait for the leaks here is a Sisters of Battle Terminator :crazy:





SGMAlice said:


> That is Awesome. The word 'Madonna' should be worked into its name some how XD
> 
> However, as people have already said: The Sisters have Artificer Armor and other items that give them comparable protection/stats so i don't see a need to put Tactical Dreadnought Armor into the new Codex.
> 
> Artificer Armor and a Rosarius gives better protection if i recall correctly: 2+/4++
> 
> As for having squads of Sisters with that equipment just like there are squads of Terminators... Some sort of Veteran Sister Squad akin to Sternguard...?
> 
> SGMAlice


Sisters of Battle Terminators, yes please! Unfortunately as much as I'd like a Sisters Terminator army, with say 2+/4++ (or should be that be Feminators?:laugh, and as cool as that drawing is, the whole nipple chain thing is providng encouragment to my sceptical nature.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

NEWS NEWS NEWS!!!
I've got some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that I've got no information regarding the Sisters yet  The good news is that I finally managed to get that annoying piece of dirt out of my bellybottom! It tasted kinda funny but still allot better than the things I found under my toe nails... :crazy:

This message was brought to you by: HERPA DERPA :crazy:


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> NEWS NEWS NEWS!!!
> I've got some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that I've got no information regarding the Sisters yet  The good news is that I finally managed to get that annoying piece of dirt out of my bellybottom! It tasted kinda funny but still allot better than the things I found under my toe nails... :crazy:
> 
> This message was brought to you by: HERPA DERPA :crazy:


Sure get my hopes up, make think something cool was about to be read , but noooooooo we get stuff about your belly bottom.

I guess we must all wait until the end of the month


----------



## MadCowCrazy

ARGH! But I have no patience 

Here is something awesome while we wait... on the plus side we should get the info this week.


----------



## TheSpore

A battle of wits yes the Orks will triumph over the nids today


----------



## Grogbart

Salamanders get their own Codex and that's their new MC unit?


----------



## Tanarri

I would play any army that had that in it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From what I heard the 4th Jurassic Park movie would be something like that or akin to that toy collection from the 80s with dinosaurs with guns all over them...


----------



## Tahiri

MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I heard the 4th Jurassic Park movie would be something like that or akin to that toy collection from the 80s with dinosaurs with guns all over them...


You mean like tihs?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tahiri said:


> You mean like tihs?


Nah, more like this...


----------



## Synack

I remember that program.


----------



## TheSpore

damn that brings back memories


----------



## Kettu

Tell me, are we even attempting to keep it vaguely on topic this time?

If not, then I shall join this Nostalgia Pleasure Cruise!











And to keep things on topic


----------



## SGMAlice

XD Awesome! Dino Riders!

Used to love that program. 1988, i was 3 :laugh:

SGMAlice


----------



## TheSpore

SGMAlice said:


> XD Awesome! Dino Riders!
> 
> Used to love that program. 1988, i was 3 :laugh:
> 
> SGMAlice


Damn I feel old now


----------



## Cowlicker16

Wanna feel old? I wasn't born till 90, I have never seen any of these things


----------



## TheSpore

Cowlicker16 said:


> Wanna feel old? I wasn't born till 90, I have never seen any of these things


ooooooo now that one hurts well I guess its to shady oaks I go.


----------



## Synack

I have all the robotech on DVD. 80's children are the best!


----------



## TheSpore

god sometimes I miss the 80s


----------



## ashikenshin

zomg dino riders!!!!! i had completely forgotten about that one. I wanted those toys so bad when I was a kid.


----------



## TheSpore

ashikenshin said:


> zomg dino riders!!!!! i had completely forgotten about that one. I wanted those toys so bad when I was a kid.


Me too my parents would never get them for me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I remember seeing the dino rider toys at a toystore here and I remember some of my friends having a few kits but I was never given any myself.

On the other hand I got one of those large space ship toys, it had small switches on it, one to open to cockpit, one to open the second cockpit, one that opened the back slowly where you could store one of the smaller ships but it came with this orange carge thing you could have 6 dudes sitting on. There was this thing you could rotate to lower or raise the landing gear. There were also magnets on the wings and on top of it where you could place guys. On the top you could also place the same small ship you could keep in the back.
The guys were also fully articulated so you could rotate their arms and legs. I just can't remember what these were called, not sure if they had their own cartoon but there was a comic series about them you got with each kit, the comics were in "3D" with those blue and red line art. As I dont have stereoscopic vision I could never enjoy it nor can I enjoy todays 3D 

Lol at She-Ra, a Heman clone if I ever saw one. Was it by the same company?

Now that I think about it there was another toy collection I wanted but never got, I did get one kit but it was too complicated for me so we returned it to the store and I got the above space ship I mentioned.

These toys had a cartoon and they were all driving cars that you could open up and stuff. The one I got had a trailer of some sort and when you pushed a button a boat launched out of it. I could never put the toy back together. I think I was around 5 or 6 at the time so back in 1985ish.

If I remember correctly there was a black van similar to the one from A-Team in the cartoon. I might be mixing up the series but I believe some of them were monster trucks.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lol at She-Ra, a Heman clone if I ever saw one. Was it by the same company?


She-Ra was a spin-off. She was his long-lost sister.

I know little about most 80s cartoons, even though I was a child at the right time.

When I was a boy the only English-Language cartoons broadcast were _He-Man_ and _My Little Pony_. So obviously, I watched both religiously. Everyone did, regardless of gender.

The current 'Brony' thing was interesting to me simply because, without realising it, I was an old school brony back in the day...


----------



## VaUgHaNy86

MadCowCrazy said:


> Now that I think about it there was another toy collection I wanted but never got, I did get one kit but it was too complicated for me so we returned it to the store and I got the above space ship I mentioned.
> 
> These toys had a cartoon and they were all driving cars that you could open up and stuff. The one I got had a trailer of some sort and when you pushed a button a boat launched out of it. I could never put the toy back together. I think I was around 5 or 6 at the time so back in 1985ish.
> 
> If I remember correctly there was a black van similar to the one from A-Team in the cartoon. I might be mixing up the series but I believe some of them were monster trucks.


I believe you may be talking about M.A.S.K here, i had some of these also when i was younger, i believe the space ship thing you are referring to may be kenners mega force series?
Chris


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yes, this is the toy series I was thinking of, M.A.S.K :grin:
Lol, when looking at this picture I just realised I had that bike in the top left corner, you could pull a switch and the tires became like engines or something so it could fly. It also had this rope thing that came out the back with a hook you could lift things with.









Here is a picture of the ship I had, strange how I remember it looking allot cooler than this when I was a kid...
The red things are bombs, you put them in the revolver like thing at the back, when you twisted it they fell down :grin:









When I was a kid there was a TV channel called Sky, not sure if it's still around. It had the coolest cartoons but they were all in english, I learnt allot of english watching this channel. I remember there were 2 kids shows, one was called DJ Kat and the other one GOON or something, I know it had 2 big OO in it and in the intro they were painted as eyes.
I liked the show because he had the same initials as me, DJK :grin:









Now that I think about it there was this live action kids show about lazer tag or something, some guy got sucked into another dimension or something where his lazer tag gun actually shot real laser shots kinda like star wars and they fought these weird monsters or something...
Found it  I remember this shit used to give me nightmares together with Dr Who





Speaking of Dr Who, there were 2 episodes that gave me horrible nightmares. One was about some sort of slim slug, of what I can remember the thing hit a guy on his hand and he slowly turned into a slime monster.
The other one that really scared the shits out of me was about some sort of really fast moving monster, if it was a car or something I dont know. It basically looked like a load of cloth was slapped onto it and it went around. I think I remember ppl trying to run away from the thing but I'm not sure.

Yes, I know this is all off topic put I need something to occupy the voices in my head while we wait for the information to come...


----------



## Lastik

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a picture of the ship I had, strange how I remember it looking allot cooler than this when I was a kid...
> The red things are bombs, you put them in the revolver like thing at the back, when you twisted it they fell down :grin:


Oh man, I had that ship when I was a kid too! I also had a smaller black triangular one with a similar cockpit, that when you pushed a button the wings would spread forward and the side sponsoons would open at the end revealing two cannons! I loved that ship soooooo much!! :gimmefive:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Lol, I'm sure I have it in a box or something at my moms place, she never throws shit away. Voidraven count as if I ever saw one, it even drops bombs! :crazy:


----------



## Lastik

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lol, I'm sure I have it in a box or something at my moms place, she never throws shit away. Voidraven count as if I ever saw one, it even drops bombs! :crazy:



Aye, that must be it! Those things where full of magnets also IIRC, those drop bombs have some on the back. :grin:


----------



## Lastik

I remember my dad had gotten the white ship with a discount at the store because it was the model at the window during the fall and winter so the white got bleached. Man that was one of my best christmas :santa::gamer2:


----------



## jaysen

I remember this one boutique game store, in Weatherford, Oklahoma, that had these really expensive japanese robot toys in the window (circa 1982). Me and my brother would stare at those things for hours, never got one. I think they were Voltron.


----------



## Necrosis

I know there are no new sister rumors but lets get back on topic guys. Sorry for being the party pooper but were way off topic.


----------



## Lastik

Necrosis said:


> I know there are no new sister rumors but lets get back on topic guys. Sorry for being the party pooper but were way off topic.


Aye sorry, but nostalgia has a wicked pull :laugh:

When is the first part of the codex due, August?


----------



## Necrosis

Lastik said:


> Aye sorry, but nostalgia has a wicked pull :laugh:
> 
> When is the first part of the codex due, August?


The next white dwarf.


----------



## Grogbart

Well, let's try some 'on topic' diversion then, to make the time go past!?

What are you expecting or wishing the Penitent Engine to be like?
For me, right now it's just expensive and fragile. But I see various ways to go with it:
- making it cheap, around ork killa kans in pricing
- make it less fragile, e.g. giving it a permanent cover save for being hasty and unexpected in its movement, removing 'open topped' or anything else along those lines
- make it into a monstrous creature, since its not much different than a dreadknight

Holy rage probably being replaced by fleet and rage, is almost certain I think. But other things aren't, like:
- moving them into fast attack slot
- giving them scout
- applying the BA blood talons effect on them (would fit the PE's circular saws much better than those manicured Dreadnought arms!)
any other ideas? 

Which general direction do you prefer for the Penitent Engine, cheap and expendable or rather expensive but worth its points?


----------



## AlexHolker

I don't like either the Repentia or the Penitent Engine as GW sees them. It's not just a problem of being underpowered, it's a lack of synergy. A melee unit that you can't control does not work well with an army that specialises in close-range firefights, because you don't want them shouting "Leeroy Jenkins" and fouling your lines of fire.

If it was me:
- Repentia would be a counter-charge unit. They'd lose rage and gain the ability to let Sisters units Hit & Run during the Repentia's first round of melee. This ability to hold off the enemy while their Sisters regrouped would be suitably heroic, IMO.
- Penitent Engines would become more of a "Knight Errant" unit. They'd serve a similar role to kamikaze deepstriking melta squads in other armies: find the biggest, deadliest thing on the enemy roster and rip its heart out.


----------



## Azezel

Grogbart said:


> Which general direction do you prefer for the Penitent Engine, cheap and expendable or rather expensive but worth its points?


Expendable murdersaurus rex.

I'd like something fairly cheap, and not too hard to destroy, but utterly brutal. I want to use it as a bullet magnet that forces the enemy to shoot at it for one or two turns so that my Sisters can get into range.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> Well, let's try some 'on topic' diversion then, to make the time go past!?
> 
> What are you expecting or wishing the Penitent Engine to be like?
> For me, right now it's just expensive and fragile. But I see various ways to go with it:
> - making it cheap, around ork killa kans in pricing
> - make it less fragile, e.g. giving it a permanent cover save for being hasty and unexpected in its movement, removing 'open topped' or anything else along those lines
> - make it into a monstrous creature, since its not much different than a dreadknight
> 
> Holy rage probably being replaced by fleet and rage, is almost certain I think. But other things aren't, like:
> - moving them into fast attack slot
> - giving them scout
> - applying the BA blood talons effect on them (would fit the PE's circular saws much better than those manicured Dreadnought arms!)
> any other ideas?
> 
> Which general direction do you prefer for the Penitent Engine, cheap and expendable or rather expensive but worth its points?


PE and Repentia are my favourite units in the whole of the game, love the models and love the concept but hate the execution.

I would love to see PE around the 50pt mark, fleet, scout and a 5+ cover save from shooting. Keeping Holy Rage as it is but Battle Frenzy has to go or be changed to something else. Being just in rage to assault but because of this shitty rule having to flame the target to they remove units so you can no longer assault is just fail. I would also like to see them act independently when in squadrons as the Rampage rule is completely useless as that's the bonus for being in a squadron.

I see them as desperate murder machines that rush into battle to die which is basically what the fluff says. I'd expect them and Repentia to be the first to enter battle and probably the last to exit as they desperately try to find a way to redeem themselves.

Scout rule fits both PE and Repentia in my opinion as I'd expect them to blindly run into battle ahead of everyone else, be it by scout move or outflank as they rushed off to kill something else where. Open topped I can accept if they had an inv save or cover save.

The same thing can basically be said about the Repentia, cheaper points cost, FNP, fleet and scout rule with holy rage and the rest of their current rules.


It does however seem that Holy Rage is being replaced with Rage and Fleet, this sucks donkey balls in my opinion. Some people say it's an improvement when in fact it's a nerf.
Holy Rage lets you move 7-12", Run 1-6" for a max of 18"
Rage and Fleet lets you move 6", Run 1-6 for a max of 12"

But you can fleet and then assault 6", why didn't you add that to the equation?!

Because with holy Rage you can move 7-12" and assault 6" for 18" threat range
With Rage and Fleet you can move 6", run 1-6" and assault 6" for 18" threat range.

So in total you lose an extra 6" movement which is something you desperately want with a unit you have no control over.
With Holy Rage and fleet the threat range would be 24" which is pretty standard for most assault units.

I want both units to basically be something I put on the table and then leave to do what it is they do best, if my opponent ignores them he suffers greatly but then can't focus on my scoring units or other things.

I'd like Repentia to be Troops and Penitent Engines to be Fast Attack.


----------



## Necrosis

I think 50 points for a Penitent Engine might be to cheap. To be honest I would like it to become a monstrous creature. T6, S6, W3, 4+ armour save with feel no pain.

Remember back in the days when everyone kept saying how the Sisters, Grey Knights and Inquisition was all going to be put into one book?


----------



## Tahiri

Necrosis said:


> I think 50 points for a Penitent Engine might be to cheap. To be honest I would like it to become a monstrous creature. T6, S6, W3, 4+ armour save with feel no pain.
> 
> Remember back in the days when everyone kept saying how the Sisters, Grey Knights and Inquisition was all going to be put into one book?


 
Making them Monstrous Creatures like that Grey Knight MC would be great. Would love to see them as MCs in groups of 1-3 and FNP. Vehicles just become useless so quickly with the amount of anti vehicle spam out there, at least if they were MCs they would hopefully survive a turn or two. If they where elites choices that would be best as other similar dreadnaughts are elites and SoB do not have a single unit worth taking as an elites choice at this point.


Love your avatar btw Necrosis.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'd love to see them as MCs as well but rumours says they are still Walkers. Walkers suck, at least when it comes to CC compared to a MC. You'd think a Walker vs a MC would be a pretty fair and epic battle but the Walker has literally no chance to win unless it strikes first and kills the MC, if it doesn't it's pretty much guaranteed to be dead (at least if it's a Penitent Engine).


----------



## Lastik

But wouldn't making it a MC susceptible to ID? (for example with that double strenght + bonus the GKs have, which makes it 10 str + 2 or something)?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Lastik said:


> But wouldn't making it a MC susceptible to ID? (for example with that double strenght + bonus the GKs have, which makes it 10 str + 2 or something)?


Not if they were T6 or had Eternal Warrior, there are however things that simply remove models from the board, most of these dont affect walkers or vehicles.
Force weapons would also kill MCs easily.


----------



## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> With Holy Rage and fleet the threat range would be 24" which is pretty standard for most assault units.


Most assault units have jetpacks or bikes, or are simply beastlike aliens. A 24" move for a bunch of humans on foot is ridiculous.



> I'd like Repentia to be Troops and Penitent Engines to be Fast Attack.


Repentia with Rage or Holy Rage are not a Troops-type unit. They cannot perform the tasks required of a Troops unit, and are inherently limited in numbers by the method of their creation and their high mortality rate.


----------



## Grogbart

Necrosis said:


> I think 50 points for a Penitent Engine might be to cheap.


Compared to a Killa Kan, which is cheaper by a fifth in its most comparable armament, I think MCC did a really good estimate. Killa Kans may have inferior stats and only one DCCW, but they share the same armour values AND a Killa Kan is NOT open-topped and it doesn't have rage!

PE as MC is appealing, as you wouldn't need, all this 'Ignore shaken and stunned', 'move through cover' and so on, as extra special rules. As would it spare some PEs, the most pitiful of destinies for them, being immobilized! (the poor things ) 
The only concern I have is point costs. I had a (albeit incomplete) look at some MCs and they're quite expensive. Too much, I think, for an expandable unit, that's raging around uncontrollably!



AlexHolker said:


> Repentia with Rage or Holy Rage are not a Troops-type unit. They cannot perform the tasks required of a Troops unit, and are inherently limited in numbers by the method of their creation and their high mortality rate.


0-1, non-scoring Troops with rage. Why shouldn't that be possible for Repentia, BA Death Company is treated exactly the same!

And thanks for all the input!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Killa Kan 35pt (40pt minimum)
2/3/5/2/2 11/11/10
- No Special Rules

Penitent Engine 80pt -Open Topped
4/2/5/3/D6 11/11/10
- Rampage: Ignore Shaken and Stunned
- Holy Rage: 6+D6 movement and Rage Rule
- Battle Frenzy: Must fire it's flamers able to do so (which in turn often leads to the unit you wanted to charge getting a few models removed so you are no longer in charge range).

Scout Sentinel 35pt -Open Topped
3/3/5/3/1 10/10/10
- Scout
- Move Through Cover

Armoured Sentinel 55pt
3/3/5/3/1 12/10/10
- Extra Armour standard

A Penitent Engine is pretty much the same thing as a Armoured Sentinel but assault oriented instead of shooting but with less survivability.

A Killa Kan, Scout Sentinel and Armour Sentinel all have 50% chance to hit with their ranged attacks, a PE has 50% chance to hit against most armies with the exception of IG, Tau and Sisters.

Open Topped is the downfall of the PE, an AP1 pen (melta anyone?) needs a 2+ to destroy a PE that's in a Squadron.

To me 50pt, Scout, Fleet and remove open topped would make the PE a desirable unit. It would basically be the same thing as a close combat oriented Sentinel but with the Rage rule.

We are 13 days from the release of the WD, how the hell aren't we getting any rumours? We basically knew the whole GK codex 2 months before release...


----------



## korbaton

I remember reading somewhere around here that GW was going to put the kibosh HARD on any future rumors. It wouldn't surprise me if the threat of termination had spread around; though I don't know how the British economy's doing compared to ours, the loss of a job is no good payment for leaking information, no matter where you live.

Just my two pence. That said, I think I would like to start building a Sisters army, depending on if plastic and Finecast accompany this new codex. Has anything been said about new models?

And a Pentient Engine probably will have to be open-topped, considering the squishy bit of it is right out there in front.


----------



## Tahiri

I really hope they make Penitent Engines usable (mainly not Heavy). I have always thought they were one of the better looking SoB models (not that hard we do not have that many).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

No rumours what so ever about models being released with the WD, there are rumours that there are plastic 5sister box, 10 plastic repentia box, plastic penitent engine, plastic priest kit.
There is also a rumour about plastic repressors but rumours also says there wont be repressors in the WD dex.

I dont have high hopes for any models, if anything there might be finecast deathcult, arcos and the other henchmen found in the GK codex. It's rumoured that SoB will be able to use some of them.


----------



## SGMAlice

As Korbaton has said: GW has said it will be putting its foot down on rumours being floated around too early or even at all. Too much for GW employee's to be risking their job in this economy.

Patience is key here, despite the protestations of illogical thought. God knows i am just as annoyed at this delay as you all are.

Patience my friends  We will see what we want soon enough. And i can finally have my SoB force and my female Space Marines.

SGMAlice


----------



## Kettu

Thing is, lack of rumours does not make me more likely to buy product, but less likely. I have no means to know what is coming out, no reason to become excited about it myself, will have nothing saved for purchases...

Come on GW; Apple, the very Poster Boy of Evil Empires doesn't even do this.


----------



## Necrosis

GW New Employee: "Hi guys I think we should start hyping our products so they sell better, instead of keeping everything so secretive."
GW Marketing Team: "Yes and lets go crap rainbows and ride unicorns while were at it."
GW New Employee: "I'm serious, look at Star Wars the Old Republic, Starcraft 2 and the Apple Ipad, just to name a few."
GW Marketing Team: "You can take your silly ideas out the door, cause your fired."


----------



## TheSpore

I suppose that GW feels that it is a matter of International Security if we were to know shit early...


----------



## rasolyo

Just been reading through TastyTaste's rumour mill again.

I noticed his comment of Celestians being cheaper than a Marine.
WHUT.

Aren't they already cheaper than a Marine? Will they be more expensive than now?

Also, a disturbing lack of any description of Battle Sister Squads' act of faith. I'm hoping he just hasn't been given any information and not that BSS's don't get faith at all.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Celestians are 13pts now, they would have to become allot better if their price was to increase. From what the rumour mill is saying they do get +1A base for a total of 2A standard. They will basically be BS4, T3 orks with a 3+ save. What options they will get remains to be see.

If we dont get the info this week I will be highly surprised! :crazy:


----------



## SilverTabby

The trouble in the miniatures / codex-based market is that if info gets out before the finished product is ready and copywrited, there is a window (however small) for others to get in with their own products. I know that sounds both unlikely and spurious, but on the inside it is a legitimate concern.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> The trouble in the miniatures / codex-based market is that if info gets out before the finished product is ready and copywrited, there is a window (however small) for others to get in with their own products. I know that sounds both unlikely and spurious, but on the inside it is a legitimate concern.


----------



## FatBoyFat

that picture is nasty.. but that post does deserve it!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

FatBoyFat said:


> that picture is nasty.. but that post does deserve it!


Your name + That Picture = :crazy:


----------



## rasolyo

Then celestians should get a Hand of the Emperor-like act of faith.
Rerolling to hit is bollocks when you're at S3.


----------



## tu_shan82

MadCowCrazy said:


>


Hey Mad Cow, where did you find that picture of me?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

rasolyo said:


> Then celestians should get a Hand of the Emperor-like act of faith.
> Rerolling to hit is bollocks when you're at S3.


Exactly, maybe each group of sisters has a specific AoF tailored to them and then there is a pool with others that all sisters can use?



tu_shan82 said:


> Hey Mad Cow, where did you find that picture of me?


4Chan, where else :crazy:


----------



## SilverTabby

Hmmm. Thinking back to a game played recently in WHW, I'd say the following things are likely true about new Acts of Faith. 

1) The names are very similar, if not the same. 
2) What they do is -very- similar. 
3) You can't just keep trying over and over if you fail a test, picking a different Act if the last attempt fails, phase allowing (as you currently can). I'd say one per unit per phase is the most likely. 

Not gospel, but musings based on my opponents reactions to use of the current Acts. :wink:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think it will just be copy paste of how the GKs work. Movement phase specific AoF, Shooting specific and Assault specific AoF that can all stack.

Like Quickening is used in the movement phase if I remember it correctly while purifying flame is use in the assault phase with Astrail Aim in the shooting phase.


----------



## Lastik

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think it will just be copy paste of how the GKs work.


Does that mean we get to grind GKs bones to bless our most holy flamers? :spiteful:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well, technically that would be cursing our items with psyker filth but the grinding of GK sounds good.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, technically that would be cursing our items with psyker filth but the grinding of GK sounds good.


I'm sure their Aeigus (Blah! Spelling?) Armour could be used in parts or ground-up, and surely those Hexagramic etched bones of theirs would work a treat.

At the very least the Sisters can reclaim the blood and 'talismans' of their fellow Sisters to be properly interred with full respect.

However, unlike the SPASS MAHREENS_TM_, which GW feels they *MUST* have fight everyone just to prove something, the Sisters will, sadly, never get the same treatment. Any and all fluff that may appear in the probably never gonna happen SoB codex detailing adversity between the two groups will inevitably be written with the Marines in the right, winning, outright butchering or, more than likely, all of the above. :blackeye:


----------



## Mathai

Necrosis said:


> GW New Employee: "Hi guys I think we should start hyping our products so they sell better, instead of keeping everything so secretive."
> 
> GW Marketing Team: "Yes and lets go crap rainbows and ride unicorns while were at it."
> 
> GW New Employee: "I'm serious, look at Star Wars the Old Republic, Starcraft 2 and the Apple Ipad, just to name a few."
> 
> GW Marketing Team: "You can take your silly ideas out the door, cause your fired."






And make sure that when reading this, the GW Marketing Team sounds like Cave Johnson in your head.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Mathai said:


> And make sure that when reading this, the GW Marketing Team sounds like Cave Johnson in your head.


And he looks like this...










Come on already, where are the damn rumours?


----------



## rasolyo

That bear reminds me of Neon Genesis Evangelion, when the Eva-01 would go into berserk mode.
The mouthpiece of her helmet was welded shut, so in berserk mode she tore the thing open with her own jaws just to scream.

RAWR!

>:3


----------



## Grogbart

This might be highly off topic, but I seem to notice a considerable rate of Anime-Fans (or at least people in the know) among the Sisters of Battle players here.

rasolyo just mentioned Neon Genesis Evangelion
(and by the way you're right, the bear really does remind me of Unit-01)

MadCowCrazy has an 'Elfen Lied' profile picture and got his first warning before being banned from Warseer for posting a Anime related picture, IIRC.

Kettu has an 'Serial Experiment Lain' profile picture.

And I'm sure, there were a few more occasions, where Anime-stuff was mentioned here. 
And I assume there are more people here, who haven't 'revealed' themselves as Anime-Fans, than just me! (Well obviously, I have now!)

Am I right, or am I suffering delusions again?


----------



## gen.ahab

Grogbart said:


> This might be highly off topic, but I seem to notice a considerable rate of Anime-Fans (or at least people in the know) among the Sisters of Battle players here.
> 
> rasolyo just mentioned Neon Genesis Evangelion
> (and by the way you're right, the bear really does remind me of Unit-01)
> 
> MadCowCrazy has an 'Elfen Lied' profile picture and got his first warning before being banned from Warseer for posting a Anime related picture, IIRC.
> 
> Kettu has an 'Serial Experiment Lain' profile picture.
> 
> And I'm sure, there were a few more occasions, where Anime-stuff was mentioned here.
> And I assume there are more people here, who haven't 'revealed' themselves as Anime-Fans, than just me! (Well obviously, I have now!)
> 
> Am I right, or am I suffering delusions again?


There are simply a great many 40k fans who also happen to enjoy anime. I doubt the percentage is noticeably higher among this subset.


----------



## Necrosis

*is anime fan*


----------



## mahavira

Also an anime fan. Actually, girls with guns/power armor/chainsaws are not that uncommon in anime, so it would not be entirely surprising for there to be slightly more overlap in the SoB fanbase.


----------



## TheSpore

Im actually an anime fan as well though I only recently got into it. My all time fav anime was the old cowboy bebop and trigun

oh and MadCow that bear is just plain scary and I will have nightmares for the next two weeks thanks to you


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I like allot of anime but have a fetish for cruel and brutal anime with girls in them that suffer greatly yet overcome the hurdle in the end, like Elfen Lied, Gunslinger Girls and Full Metal Panic the 2nd Raid. I also like really messed up anime like Excel Saga (was the first ever anime I saw and since then I was hooked).

Claymore is another one I really like and a thousand other animes.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> I like allot of anime but have a fetish for cruel and brutal anime with girls in them at suffer greatly yet overcome the hurdle in the end, like Elfen Lied, Gunslinger Girls and Full Metal Panic the 2nd Raid. I also like really messed up anime like Excel Saga (was the first ever anime I saw and since then I was hooked).
> 
> Claymore is another one I really like and a thousand other animes.


I enjoyed claymore quite aa bit as well and oddly I got addicted to XXX holic I have no clue why either. I typically enjoy the dark animes that normally deal with demons and evil stuff. I enjoyed the corpse princess (i think that what it was called )


----------



## SGMAlice

I'm in there too. Been enjoying Anime/Manga for years. 21 years infact.

Preference varies with me, i enjoy a wide spectrum: from Sailor Moon and Chobits to GitS and Dominion Tank Police.

GitS and Chobits are my favourite. Sailor Moon, Speed Racer and Astro Boy were some of the first i saw. I particularily remember the Manga film called Metropolis; it fascinated me immensely.

SGMAlice


----------



## Synack

Surely a WD has fallen off a truck by now?!


----------



## Kettu

And been promptly run over.:laugh:



Grogbart said:


> Kettu has an 'Serial Experiment Lain' profile picture.


Wow, someone else knows of Serial Experiments: Lain. :shok:
That took me by surprise, to be honest.

Lain is the top of my list of best Anime.
Followed by Ghost in the Shell and Osamu Tezuka's Metropolis.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here are some gifs I threw together a few years ago, some I used as my avatar while the others I posted on forums to give people an idea of what those animes were about. Good times 

There is a second season of Dokuro Chan as well 
Bah, can't upload the Dokuro chan one as I can't find a reliable file sharing site that allows 3Mb files... ah well :crazy:
Ebichu, NSFW or ppl under 18



















And just for all you otaku ppl out there who understand this joke 










If you are really bored waiting for the information you can always watch Gundarr 





Dick Figures is also pretty good 





Trailer Trash is pretty funny as well... :crazy:


----------



## TraceofToxin

You should all be ashamed... and purged. By fire.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TraceofToxin said:


> You should all be ashamed... and purged. By fire.


Strange, that's something I'd expect an Ultramarines player to say? :crazy:


----------



## Grogbart

Kettu said:


> Wow, someone else knows of Serial Experiments: Lain. :shok:
> That took me by surprise, to be honest.


Well, having watched it, I certainly won't forget it!
In fact, it is one of those series that left me feeling, sort of tainted for life!



MadCowCrazy said:


> There is a second season of Dokuro Chan as well


Yeah, Dokuro Chan!
The Series, that gave a 5 second answer to a question that usually took me hours of talking my tongue off, to reply.





And since we're at it:
Some of my favorites (at least those not mentioned here already), anime-wise Black Lagoon, Lucky Star and FLCL.
Manga-wise its Appleseed and Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind.


----------



## Azezel

I think you mean


----------



## TraceofToxin

MadCowCrazy said:


> Strange, that's something I'd expect an Ultramarines player to say? :crazy:


Indee-dily-doo-dily.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Synack said:


> Surely a WD has fallen off a truck by now?!


Of course, problem is it's fallen into the hands of a Spheeze Mahreene player...










Anyone else been spending an unhealthy amount of time in /d/ whilst waiting for the information to leak? :crazy:
It's research, I promise....for a slaneeshi type army :crazy:


----------



## Doelago

Cant wait for next months White Dwarf...


----------



## Kettu

Grogbart said:


> Well, having watched it, I certainly won't forget it!
> In fact, it is one of those series that left me feeling, sort of tainted for life!


Tainted, you say?

Have you seen Texhnolyze by the exact same four guys?
It's like watching a horrific train-wreck in slow motion. It truly disturbed me.

(Just to put things in perspective, the writer, Chiaki Konaka, wrote SE:L as he was falling into depression. He then wrote Texhnolyze whilst he was in the Hospital itself being treated.)

--

In other news, and I found this funny, one of my local GW's is running a promotion at the moment, whenever you buy a codex you get a nice, high-quality, uncropped art-slip of the artwork used on the cover.

They have them for all armies including Codex Witchhunters.

When I asked about it the employee had no clue himself how they are going to be shifting the Witchhunters one, nor the Necron one for that matter unless he starts forced selling a book that will be invalid in a month or two.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As dark and twisted as this?


----------



## Kettu

:rofl:

That's Twisted Funny, Texhnolyze is more insidious-malevolent with the final few episodes really hitting home as all those small niggling side points that have been left hanging up till now all come together.


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> As dark and twisted as this?
> I Kissed a Spawn


The Emperors Inquisition approves of this video.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Doelago said:


> The Emperors Inquisition approves of this video.


Dark Sexy Rituals Tonight for the win eh :crazy:


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> Dark Sexy Rituals Tonight for the win eh :crazy:


What have you done!? Now that video is suddenly the ringtone on my phone! 

Um, got any other dark and twisted videos or something similar?


----------



## Irbian

So.... thats why I saw that bear with human teeth here? you were lurking tg? 

You aren´t the only one who is google fooing, but... is like the white dwarf is more like a invisible dwarf.


----------



## Kettu

Whilst we all wait, here's some... 



 ...to tide us over.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> So.... thats why I saw that bear with human teeth here? you were lurking tg?
> 
> You aren´t the only one who is google fooing, but... is like the white dwarf is more like a invisible dwarf.


Yupp, every few hours I take a look over at tg, when I find nothing there I head over to /d/ to try and find something that can calm me down... :crazy:

Just saw this... if they start adding things like this maybe they will add some spheeze mahreeenez as well.... (yeah yeah, just added this line so I could still claim on topic :crazy


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Seems someone has gotten their WD yet nothing new has been revealed? I'm sceptical to this information, seems like trolling to me and not much else.



Drachnon said:


> So I bought the new White Dwarf today (not sure if its early over here) with the sisters of battle.
> After reading it once I gave it to a friend who actually plays sisters since he can't study it. Even so I think its time to discuss what we think so far.
> 
> My thoughts:
> The new faith system:
> All units and IC's only have 1 power and you roll a D6 to determine how much points you have each turn. I didn't see any mention of increasing the number of faith points per turn which means sisters will probably get less effective in bigger battles as you'll be starved for faith points even without a bad roll. (hopefully we'll see an answer to this with the next installment of the codex).
> To activate no more leadership test just a D6 with a couple of possible bonuses (like veteran sister as squad leader or having taken a casualty) and it works on 5+ which seems ok to me.
> The powers themselves all seem to be pretty good, nothing broken but I couldn't see any faith powers that seemed completely useless.
> 
> Armor of faith:
> Gives entire almost the army a 6+ inv save even vehicles. I can't think of any downsides to this and seems like a good thing to add a slight bit more survivability.
> 
> The units:
> The entire inquisition/IG part is now gone and the sisters look like they'll have to fend for themselves. I didn't see any new units so you won't have much choice when selecting units (I don't think there'll be more then 2 choices in any FOC section)
> Wargear options will be in the next white dwarf but from what I remember all sister squads except the sisters repentia now have frag and krak grenades.
> 
> So anyone else who has the new WD?





Drachnon said:


> thade said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to their "this unit's armor save is invulnerable for the turn" power? Did that get axed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before all units have only one power each, I haven't memorized them all but I don't think any made their armour invunerable. Keep in mind that now all sisters have a 6+ inv save all the time.
> 
> These are the ones I do remember (though I might be wrong on some points):
> Canonness: +1 initiative and fearless
> Sister battle squad: used in shooting or assault - Reroll 1's to wound (or maybe to hit)
> Sisters repentia: If a model is killed in close combat during higher initiative it can still attack back though with only 1 attack.
> Special weapon squad: Twin linked iirc
> I have no clue about the others.
> 
> I didn't see any new units (also no terminator armor) though I'm not sure about the special characters.
> 
> If the Blood Angel White Dwarf codex was any indication there isn't much hope for new stuff in the next white dwarf, only the points costs for the units given in this white dwarf.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Drachnon said:


> I already addressed that in my first post and yes you only have a D6 per turn the problem seems to be that its always a D6 regardless of the size of the army. So a 500 points army has the same D6 as a 2500 points army meaning there will be 500 points game where you roll 6 and have to much to spend and other time in 2500 points you roll 1 in the turn you really need it for multiple units.


----------



## SGMAlice

D6 per turn!  no fricking way!
Given that they may just as well have left the SoB's as they were and not bothered at all with this update.

1 power per unit isn't too bad i suppose. Few were actually worth using.

No, something isn't right with this, not right at all.

SGMAlice


----------



## Necrosis

Well I guess I will have to finish my homebrew codex.


----------



## Katie Drake

It's quite possible that there's more to things. I wouldn't worry too much just yet guys.


----------



## AlexHolker

Speaking of homebrew codices, would anyone be interested in a fanlist for Warpath? Does Heresy Online have an appropriate place to post it?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

AlexHolker said:


> Speaking of homebrew codices, would anyone be interested in a fanlist for Warpath? Does Heresy Online have an appropriate place to post it?


Don't think we have yet, I'm sure a subsection for it will be made at some point though.

After spending the night thinking about the D6 FP per turn it does seem a bit lacklustre but not if you look at it like this.

WH codex:
2 Canoness = 6FP
6 Troops = 6FP
3 Elite = 3FP
3 Fast Attack = 3FP
3 Heavy Support = 3FP
21 max Total Faith Points with a theoretical max of 42 as your units die

WD codex:
D6 x 5 Turns = 5-30FP with a theoretical max of 42 if games goes to turn 7

A normal WH army would have about 12-15FPs (2 Canoness, 2 Troops, 3 Elite and 3 Fast Attack if you went with Immolator spam) at the start of the game, that would go up to a total of 20+ as you started taking losses.

WD codex will stay 5-30 + 2-12 if you go turn 6 and 7.

So far the new system seems like an improvement when it comes to the theoretical number of FP you can have.

Now if we start looking at using AoF the new system starts to crumble pretty fast. From what was stated the basic test is on a 5+ that can be modified by VSS and casualties, I wouldn't be surprised if a Simulacrum Imperialis added a +1 and an HQ +2 to the roll.
You will most likely give all your units a VSS with Evicerator or perhaps a combi weapon of sort so most of the time you will be rolling on 4+ and that's still a 50% chance to make it.
The problem is you now also have to take this chance into consideration in regards to how many FP you really have. The number suddenly dropped from 5-30 to 2.5-15 for your average 5 turn game, and when you apply the average number of 3 you will statistically be rolling the number goes down to 1.25-7.5.

So basically if you rolled a 3 every single turn which is the most likely outcome at a rate of 50% chance (yes you could also claim that you have 50% chance to roll a 4 but I digress) and then the most likely average of having to roll a 4+ to be successful with your Test of Faith you end up with a 25% average usefulness of a single Faith Point.

Then we have the problem of when you would use your FP. With the WH codex you have a stockpile so you can move into position and then launch an all out attack and burn all your FP in a single turn to causes the most amount of damage. With this new system you will average a little less than 1 successful AoF per turn... wow.... that's game changing...

I'm sure my math is flawed on allot of levels and if anyone cares to do the proper math go ahead.

Anyways from my flawed math you can basically say that statistically only 1 in 4 FP generated will result in a successful AoF.


Finally we have the Acts of Faith themselves...
Nothing I've seen so far has screamed OP at me, most of them seem pretty meh to be honest. Most seems to be centered around re-rolls, the only good ones so far imo are the Dominion Twin-Linked and Retributor Rending ones.
Re-rolling to hit and wound is pretty meh, especially in Assault with WS3 and S3 models. If my math isn't too flawed it it gives you an added 23% to your rolls, meaning you do wounds as if you were a tiny bit better than S4 and hit as if you were a tiny bit better than your opponent with hitting on 2.8+ instead of 3+.


To me it seems that Acts of Faith will become something trivial you can't really rely on, kinda like markerlights for Tau, awesome when you get it but most of the time it's not something you can rely on.


I really hope I'm wrong and that the new system is full of win, perhaps that HQ models add +1-3 FP per turn or something like that. It's too soon to cry foul just yet until we get confirmation and even then we might not know anything as it's likely there will be no points costs or anything like that in part 1 of the WD dex. So we will basically have 1 month to bicker about how much the WD dex sucks before we will know for sure :crazy:

Who knows, maybe a normal Battle Sister is just 8pts now with Celestians at 10pt and Seraphim at 12. I doubt it but it wouldn't surprise me either.


----------



## Azezel

Well, they said the Canonness had taken a hit in effectiveness. Oh wow, Init 5 and takes extra wounds in combat.

They also said that these rules hadn't been playtested, but I sort of assumed that someone had at least thought them through. Ye gods.

Oh, and no mention of the Shield of Faith.

Looks like I'd better paint up a few more High Elves since without a Canonness, Spirit of the Martyr or Divine Guidance my Sisters have just become useless.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Hi.

Hmm, I don't know if the new or the old (current) AoF check is better than other. But I can show an example:


Current:
10 SoB + veteran sister. Disembark from Rhino and use Divine Guidance:
Check probability of success = 91.666%​

New:
Whatever.
Check probability of success = 33.333%​

The probability of success of each change...


Current while miniatures going fall:
10 SoB = 91.666%
09 SoB = 83.333%
08 SoB = 72.222%
07 SoB = 58.333%
06 SoB = 41.666%
(...)​

New system (adding bonus):
5+ = 33.333%
4+ = 50%
3+ = 66.666%​
Current (old) system is highly reliable.


On the other hand we need to see if an AoF that give you AP1 (or ignore armour) is better than re-roll to hit.

Re-roll with BS4 is always prob hit + (prob. fail 1st x prob hit 2nd): 2/3 + (1/3 x 2/3) = 2/3 + 2/9 = 24/27 -> 88.888% hit probability per shot.

The AP1 (or ignore armour) is most hard to see, depends of prob. to hit, prob. to wound and the armour of objective.

--------------

Now let's to see what AoF is better for a SoB troop squad. 
*10 SoB + veteran sister, disembark from Rhino:*


Current system shooting against an SM:
Success AoF = 91.666%.
Fail AoF = 8.334%
Kill an SM with AoF [2/3 (to hit) x 1/3 to wound (roll a 4 or 5) x 1/3 (to fail Sv. 3+)] + [2/3 (to hit) x 1/6 to wound (roll a 6) x 1 (no Sv. for AP1) ] = 2/27 + 1/9 = 18.518% to kill an SM.
Kill an SM without AoF [2/3 (to hit) x 1/2 to wound (roll a 4+) x 1/3 (to fail Sv. 3+)] = 1/9 = 11.111% to kill an SM.

All together = [prob(success AoF) x prob(to kill an SM with AoF)] + [prob(fail AoF) x prob(to kill an SM without AoF)] = [11/12 x (2/27 + 1/9)] + [0.08334 x 1/9] = *17.9%* to kill an SM.



New system shooting against an SM:
Success AoF = 50% (assuming a 4+ for bonus to have a Veteran Sister (+1)).
Fai AoF = 50% (assuming a 4+ for bonus to have a Veteran Sister (+1)).
Kill an SM with AoF [2/3 (to hit) x 1/2 to wound (roll a 4+) x 1/3 (to fail Sv. 3+)] + [1/6 x 2/3 (to fail 1st hit rolling '1' x to hit 2nd) x 1/2 to wound (roll a 4+) x 1/3 (to fail Sv. 3+)] = 1/9 + 1/54 = 12.962% to kill an SM.
Kill an SM without AoF [2/3 (to hit) x 1/2 to wound (roll a 4+) x 1/3 (to fail Sv. 3+)] = 1/9 = 11.111% to kill an SM.

All together = [prob(success AoF) x prob(to kill an SM with AoF)] + [prob(fail AoF) x prob(to kill an SM without AoF)] = [1/2 x (1/9 + 1/54)] + [1/2 x 1/9] = (6.481 + 5.555)% = *12.036%* to kill an SM.



Results against SM shooting:
*current AoF = 17.9% > 12.036% = new AoF.*

Well, I redone the calcule, I forgotten to add the case when you fail de AoF.
The prob. difference fall a bite but still is worse, also this difference will be less against weaker enemies than a MEQ.


----------



## SilverTabby

According to WHW, stores don't get WD til next weekend (last saturday of the month) in the UK. So right now we're entirely reliant on a subscriber getting it early, or a member of studio staff being willing to spill the beans (though they only get it a day or two before the stores - store staff get it on delivery day which tends to be a thursday). 

Foreign copies - I can't say when those come in, but they're foreign :wink:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here you go 
Now lets see if we can decipher these...

As posting the pictures themselves is a violation here is a link instead

Click me


----------



## SilverTabby

Well, Penitent Engines just got a survivability boost...  Boltgun-proof (unless you place badly) and immune to most non-special CC attacks by dint of armour 11... And with two heavy flamers. I don't have my BRB to hand, can walkers fire all weapons? And bonus attacks... they aren't Talos or Dreadknights by any means, but hopefully this means their price will bottom out. I may finish my conversions at last!


----------



## TheSpore

Im not sure what to think about the faith ystem this time around


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here you go
> Now lets see if we can decipher these...
> 
> As posting the pictures themselves is a violation here is a link instead
> 
> Click me


Decipher? They're in plain English!


----------



## Azezel

Canonness: Actively harmful Act of Faith, but an extra point of WS, overall downgrade. Let's face it, without a 2++ those stats and Fearless will get her killed in one turn by anything worth fighting.

Battle Sisters: Nigh-worthless Act of Faith, but at least they finally have Grenades and Bolt Pistols. Overall downgrade.

Celestians: Still not worth fielding. Initiative 3 (and no _The Passion_) makes them not even a speedbump, even with three attacks (4 on the charge).

Immolators: Lost the sole thing that makes them distinct from Razorbacks (apart from costing more and having inferior weapons), The fire point. Also, no longer ablee to move 12" and fire.

Retributors: Actually, an improvement. Rending makes them a legitimate threat to almost anything.

Celestine: Modest upgrade, gets a boatload of attacks but still not worth 200 points, hope that she costs less. No Hit and Run, no Assualt Phase move. Doesn't appear to have an Act of Faith, despite having the rule.



Conclusion: Let's be honest here, we lost Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr, and that means we lost the only things keeping the army competative.

Most of those Acts of Faith are scarcely worth rolling for, one is a real hinderance, the sort of thing you'd try to _avoid_.

Also, please note, absolutely *ZERO* psychic defence.

Unless there has been a giant slash in points costs (talking ~9pts for a Battle Sister) we're sunk.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> And with two heavy flamers. I don't have my BRB to hand, can walkers fire all weapons? And bonus attacks..


They can move and shoot all weapons 



Azezel said:


> Loads of stuff


I'd have to agree, but it will all come down to points costs. With those stats and AoF I'd say 8pt for a Battle Sister, 10 for Celestian, Dominion and Retributor and 12pt for Seraphim.

Sister Repentia and Penitent Engines are my most favourite units in the game and they seems to have received a HUGE buff. Base 2A for Repentia so 3 on the charge and PE with 3-8 attacks on the charge that generate additional attacks :crazy:
I guess only space marines are 1337 enough to generate additional attacks from the additional attacks...

It will all come down to points cost, I'm guessing 12-14pt for a Repentia and 50pt for a Penitent Engine.


----------



## Winterous

Wait, Arco-Flagellants are S4 now?
I certainly hope that's a typo, they're mediocre enough as is, compared to the all-raping Death Cults!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dominions with Scout rule can be pretty nasty I'd say 



Winterous said:


> Wait, Arco-Flagellants are S4 now?
> I certainly hope that's a typo, they're mediocre enough as is, compared to the all-raping Death Cults!


Has to be, they have BS3 as well, what exactly are they going to shoot with? Then again Sisters Repentia has BS4...


----------



## TeDasCuen

Winterous said:


> Wait, Arco-Flagellants are S4 now?
> I certainly hope that's a typo, they're mediocre enough as is, compared to the all-raping Death Cults!


I agree. It's weird, in GK codex they have S5 and I don't know why for SoB they lose 1 S and gain BS3. BS+2? BS+2?... :shok:


By the way... Jacobus + some Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins can be nice.


----------



## Kettu

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
:laugh:
Oh god, read the Exorcist Fluff...
The little part about 'Tempermental Machine-Spirit does not Malfunction'

The Exorcist...
IS GETTING NERFED!:rofl:


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> The little part about 'Tempermental Machine-Spirit does not Malfunction'
> 
> The Exorcist...
> IS GETTING NERFED!:rofl:


I'm inclined to believe that that is simply the d6 shots thing, same as always.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Question: Acts of Faith and the bonuses.
+1 if the unit has taken at least 1 casualty + Note that all modifiers are cumulative.

So if I have lost 5 models in a unit does that mean the AoF is automatically successful? They bonuses all have the "at least one" in them, this should mean that if I have 2 Canonesses in a unit I would get +1 for each Canoness, right? And if it is this way does that mean the same for models lost in a unit?
If this is indeed the way it is I can understand the new system perfectly as it does make sense from a fluff perspective that the Sisters fight on harder and with more resolution as their fellow combatants fall in battle.
This is how I would read it as RAW...


----------



## Tahiri

MadCowCrazy said:


> Question: Acts of Faith and the bonuses.
> +1 if the unit has taken at least 1 casualty +Note that all modifiers are cumulative.
> 
> So if I have lost 5 models in a unit does that mean the AoF is automatically successful?
> This is how I would read it as RAW...


 
No. It means the +1 for having a Vet, +1 for having taken atleast 1 wound and the +1 for having a Special Character. Are cumulative for a +3. The +1 for taking a casualty does not go higher.


----------



## Tanarri

MadCowCrazy said:


> Question: Acts of Faith and the bonuses.
> +1 if the unit has taken at least 1 casualty + Note that all modifiers are cumulative.
> 
> So if I have lost 5 models in a unit does that mean the AoF is automatically successful? They bonuses all have the "at least one" in them, this should mean that if I have 2 Canonesses in a unit I would get +1 for each Canoness, right? And if it is this way does that mean the same for models lost in a unit?
> If this is indeed the way it is I can understand the new system perfectly as it does make sense from a fluff perspective that the Sisters fight on harder and with more resolution as their fellow combatants fall in battle.
> This is how I would read it as RAW...


I read it as if you have 1-1 million cannonesses you get +1 if you lose 1-1 million wounds you get +1. So if you have all three things in the unit you are at a 2+ but you would need the IC one of the champion upgrades and
a wound to be at 2+. Just having 3 wounds would put you at a 4+. Now I hope I am wrong and you are right but that is how I read it.


----------



## TeDasCuen

The rule is clear "_+1: [...] at least 1 casualty._".
"At least 1" is like "1 or more".

And the same for IC. 2 IC get only +1.

The modifiers are accumulative between they and give you a maximum of +3, that is like to roll a 2+ (you know... '1' always is a fail).


I'm intrigued for the Dialogus sister and the Simulacrum Imperialis rules.


----------



## Tahiri

Hugely disappointed with this release. So many things to rant about...

Two new special characters both of are male and and not even that good compared to so many other factions independent characters. Celestine needs to be dropped down to like 150-175 points

Faith getting totally nerfed into the ground. The only thing that made SoB competitive was the ability to get your Cannoness to 2++ and on higher initiative then other independent characters. But now she can not get either of those and reduced down to a 3+ save (which maybe you can still buy her a 2+ in wargear). 

They even nerfed Seraphims down to 3 Initiate so you have to take a Cannoness with them and then get two 66% chances in assault to go on the same initiate as marines...

Love how everything is 1 Initiative lower then Marines, even the Penitent Eng is 1 Int lower then a Dreadnaught...

You only get a D6 faith points a turn, so if you have a 500 point army that is great but if you have 2500 you are screwed? They are also lost at the end of “your” turn so you do not even get them during your opponent’s turn...

So faith in summary has completely changed from the old faith in a not good way, in old faith you typically had more faith points then you could use in a given turn, and now you do not have nearly enough faith points a turn to use.

I guess they did make Repentia a little better by giving them FnP as a base rule, but they well still die before they ever get into melee.

Immolaters no longer having the special rule of being able to shot its flamers after moving 12, and not being fast, and not getting any sort of bonus to armor makes them pretty much useless now.

Exorcists, from the fluff it says can 'destroy a whole squad in one salvo'. Anyone think they well change exorcists missiles. Make them like S8 Ap1, or S4 A5 or something alone the lines of normal missiles?

I suppose we could also still hold out hope that all squads can be upgraded with “Blessed Ammo” akin to “Psybolt Ammo.”


It well all come down to the point costs of things and how much gear you can give each squad. But as it stands now your best bet is probably running Canonesses with Command Squads for relentless heavy weapons with FnP.



Oh yeah and 6++ save across the board is easily the must useless thing ever...


----------



## Sworn Radical

Dude, those characters aren't new, they've both been in the 2nd ed. codex Sisters of Battle.
Well, it's certainly nice to see Kyrinov and Jacobus back in action, but ...

Only three different types of models to chose from for the so-called _'Battle Conclaves'_. = Epic Fail *I*

No Frateris Militia or Zealot units of any kind. = Epic Fail *II*

Until now, this supposed army list looks rather boring and pretty one-dimensional - unless the Sept. WD spices things up a (big) notch. Disappointment here you come ...


----------



## SGMAlice

From what i can see it looks like some of us are going to have to get very creative with list building...
Otherwise our SoB's are going to be nothing more than pretty ornaments on a shelf.

I can see myself completely disregarding this and continuing to use the current Codex. Lets hope next month brings better news.

SGMAlice


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Lets do an in-depth scrutinisation of what has been revealed.

Sororitas Command Squads
Orders Dialogous 
-skilled orators whose amplified voices can embolden the spirits of nearby troops

Question: Have these become the new Books of St. Lucius? Granting a 6" Stubborn bubble around them?

Orders Hostpitaller
-the medical ministrations from a Sister Hostpitaller can staunch the bleeding from wounds and purge man lethal poisons from a warrior's bloodstream, allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grievous injuries.

Question: Does this mean the unit will get some sort of protection from poisoned attacks? Like Poison 4+ becomes 5+? or perhaps cc poison attacks aren't allowed to be re-rolled even if the attacks S is higher than the units T?

Laud Hailers: A few models are equipped with them like Sisters Dialogus and Kyrinov.
In the WH codex they gave tank shocked units -1 to their Ld for the subsequent Morale check.

Question: I guess it's pretty safe to assume there is no -1 LD from them but rather a bonus to your own units near them? Basically same question as asked above, does it now give Stubborn or Fearless in a 6" bubble.

Death Cult Assassins: "Though many Death Cults are Chaos-spawned, other are fanatically dedicated to the Imperial Creed and offer up those they slay to the Emperor"

Well, if you ever needed a fluff reason for a heretic Death Cult army here you go :crazy:

New Penitent Engine fluff: "Many of the unfortunates sentenced to pilot a PE were once members of the Ecclesiarchy; Priests fallen from grace or Battle Sisters who have, through failure of duty or faith, caused the deaths of their fellows. A multitude of wires and chemical injectors are implanted into the pilots spines, and when they are not ripping through the ranks of their enemies, lances of pain and images of guilt shoot directly into their brains, reminding them of their sins. Driven by their pilot's frantic need for forgiveness, PEs charge towards the foe heedless of danger, knowing that only in death, their or the enemy's, can forgiveness finally be earned.
Penitent Engines often charge into battle beside the ranks of the Orders Militant. The Sisters of Battle consider it their sacred duty to witness these great machines in the fires of combat, observing the actions of their fallen brothers and sisters as they atone for past sins."

Pretty neat if you ask me, should mean you no longer require a priest to field them :crazy:

New Battle Sister fluff: "The vast majority of the Orders Militant is made up of Battle Sisters. Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth by the Schola Progenium to believe in the righteousness of their cause."

So to become a Battle Sister you have to first be an orphan and raised from birth? So a mother gives birth to a daughter and she is immediately handed over to the Schola Progenium? so do they steal babies it fill the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy? 
Here is perfect fluff for my Ordo Sepulturum if I ever needed it :crazy:

Celestian fluff: "Celestians harness this ardour in battle, and it lends them the strength to split the skulls of alien savages in a single blow and smite hideous Daemons back into the Warp."
Yeah....S4 if you are successful with your AoF... lots of skull splitting to be done with that... Then again they are basically the same thing as orks now. Wonder if you can take squads of 20? Then again they dont have a CCW so they only have 3 attacks on the charge.

Seraphim fluff: "As befits veterans of such standing, Seraphim Superiors wield some of their Order's most vaunted weapons, from golden-bladed power swords inscribed with litanites of faith (Blessed weapons?) to sacred pistols once wielded by Living Saints (new inferno pistols that were spotted on the Battle Sister plastic sprue?), irreplacable artefacts and revered heirlooms all.

Retributor fluff: "Finally, completing the holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melta, Retributors are also adept at wielding deadly multi-meltas."

So I guess it's pretty safe to say Retributors can only get Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas. Lets hope they can get Blessed ammo for their heavy bolters :crazy:

Immolator fluff: "Sisters of Battle favour bolters, flamers and meltas to eradicate their enemies - the so-called "Holy Trinity" of weapons. As a result, some Immolators are armed with a pair of multi-meltas instead of heavy flamers, whilst others mount heavy bolters loaded with deadly incendiary rounds."

Well, this pretty much confirms that Blessed Ammo is still in, in some form at least.
Lets hope for side sponson weapons for the Immolators as that would make them nasty :crazy:

This is basically all I have to comment on in regards to the WD dex so far.


Question: It's pretty obvious this isn't the full codex, there are just too few units in it.
Both the Rhino and Immolator has the like "can not transport terminators", does the rhino say that for armies that dont even have terminators?
Does this mean we might get sisters in terminator armour? or am I simply hoping for something new?

To me this smells like the Tyranid codex, all the old units becoming shit so they can sell you some new kits. Sure they will turn the current range into plastic but that doesn't mean they will sell as most SoB players already have everything they need. So in with some new kits that are so good you will look at what's in the WD dex and say "Sisters sure have allot of Mandrake wannabe units"....


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lets do an in-depth scrutinisation of what has been revealed.
> 
> Sororitas Command Squads
> Orders Dialogous
> -skilled orators whose amplified voices can embolden the spirits of nearby troops
> 
> Question: Have these become the new Books of St. Lucius? Granting a 6" Stubborn bubble around them?
> 
> Orders Hostpitaller
> -the medical ministrations from a Sister Hostpitaller can staunch the bleeding from wounds and purge man lethal poisons from a warrior's bloodstream, allowing a Battle Sister to return to the fray despite grievous injuries.
> 
> Question: Does this mean the unit will get some sort of protection from poisoned attacks? Like Poison 4+ becomes 5+? or perhaps cc poison attacks aren't allowed to be re-rolled even if the attacks S is higher than the units T?
> 
> You're over-thinking things. Just FNP.
> 
> Laud Hailers: A few models are equipped with them like Sisters Dialogus and Kyrinov.
> In the WH codex they gave tank shocked units -1 to their Ld for the subsequent Morale check.
> 
> Question: I guess it's pretty safe to assume there is no -1 LD from them but rather a bonus to your own units near them? Basically same question as asked above, does it now give Stubborn or Fearless in a 6" bubble.
> 
> Death Cult Assassins: "Though many Death Cults are Chaos-spawned, other are fanatically dedicated to the Imperial Creed and offer up those they slay to the Emperor"
> 
> Well, if you ever needed a fluff reason for a heretic Death Cult army here you go :crazy:
> 
> New Penitent Engine fluff: "Many of the unfortunates sentenced to pilot a PE were once members of the Ecclesiarchy; Priests fallen from grace or Battle Sisters who have, through failure of duty or faith, caused the deaths of their fellows. A multitude of wires and chemical injectors are implanted into the pilots spines, and when they are not ripping through the ranks of their enemies, lances of pain and images of guilt shoot directly into their brains, reminding them of their sins. Driven by their pilot's frantic need for forgiveness, PEs charge towards the foe heedless of danger, knowing that only in death, their or the enemy's, can forgiveness finally be earned.
> Penitent Engines often charge into battle beside the ranks of the Orders Militant. The Sisters of Battle consider it their sacred duty to witness these great machines in the fires of combat, observing the actions of their fallen brothers and sisters as they atone for past sins."
> 
> Pretty neat if you ask me, should mean you no longer require a priest to field them :crazy:
> 
> New Battle Sister fluff: "The vast majority of the Orders Militant is made up of Battle Sisters. Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth by the Schola Progenium to believe in the righteousness of their cause."
> 
> So to become a Battle Sister you have to first be an orphan and raised from birth? So a mother gives birth to a daughter and she is immediately handed over to the Schola Progenium? so do they steal babies it fill the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy?
> 
> 'Orphan' means that both parents are dead. The Ecclesiarchy don't have to steal babies, the Imperium is fully capable of generating scads of orphans. there is only way, you know. The Sororitas have always come primarily from the Scholas.
> 
> Here is perfect fluff for my Ordo Sepulturum if I ever needed it :crazy:
> 
> Celestian fluff: "Celestians harness this ardour in battle, and it lends them the strength to split the skulls of alien savages in a single blow and smite hideous Daemons back into the Warp."
> Yeah....S4 if you are successful with your AoF... lots of skull splitting to be done with that... Then again they are basically the same thing as orks now. Wonder if you can take squads of 20? Then again they dont have a CCW so they only have 3 attacks on the charge.
> 
> They have Bolt Pistols.
> 
> Seraphim fluff: "As befits veterans of such standing, Seraphim Superiors wield some of their Order's most vaunted weapons, from golden-bladed power swords inscribed with litanites of faith (Blessed weapons?) to sacred pistols once wielded by Living Saints (new inferno pistols that were spotted on the Battle Sister plastic sprue?), irreplacable artefacts and revered heirlooms all.
> 
> Again you're putting too much thought into this (more thought than the writer). Just regular power weapons. They may be able to take Inferno Pistols, but since those sprue rumours are almost certainly false there's little reason to bring them up again.
> 
> Retributor fluff: "Finally, completing the holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melta, Retributors are also adept at wielding deadly multi-meltas."
> 
> So I guess it's pretty safe to say Retributors can only get Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas.Lets hope they can get Blessed ammo for their heavy bolters :crazy:
> 
> Immolator fluff: "Sisters of Battle favour bolters, flamers and meltas to eradicate their enemies - the so-called "Holy Trinity" of weapons. As a result, some Immolators are armed with a pair of multi-meltas instead of heavy flamers, whilst others mount heavy bolters loaded with deadly incendiary rounds."
> 
> Well, this pretty much confirms that Blessed Ammo is still in, in some form at least.
> 
> No, it just means there may be a special kind of incendiary round, or there may not, it is probably just fluff text.
> 
> Lets hope for side sponson weapons for the Immolators as that would make them nasty :crazy:
> 
> We are not getting new units in this codex. That includes anything which would reqire a new model, such as sponsons on an Immolator.
> 
> This is basically all I have to comment on in regards to the WD dex so far.


You're reading far far too much into mere fluff text, Old Man.

Do we know who wrote this update? The fluff text smacks of 'I skimmed Lexicanum on my lunch break, now I am writing down what I remember'.

That is to say, there's nothing that one could call new fluff (such as the way GK fluff changed) but it's just subtley different enough to not tally with what's gone before. As though someone had heard the current fluff, but didn't know it well.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> You're reading far far too much into mere fluff text, Old Man.
> 
> Do we know who wrote this update? The fluff text smacks of 'I skimmed Lexicanum on my lunch break, now I am writing down what I remember'.
> 
> That is to say, there's nothing that one could call new fluff (such as the way GK fluff changed) but it's just subtley different enough to not tally with what's gone before. As though someone had heard the current fluff, but didn't know it well.


Hmm, I CHALLENGE YOU WITH: Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth

To be raised from birth means you were literally handed over to the Schola Progenum the same moment you took your first breath of air.

Sure, there would probably be millions of orphans in the 40k universe but to be raised from birth is very different from being picked up at age 5 and thrown into the Schola Progenum.


Yes yes, I'm reading waaaay to much into this but I figured I'd have a nice piece of background fluff that would explain why my Sisters of Battle have extensive body modifications and things like that. My Ordo Sepulturum guys aren't too picky when it comes to the "sacred human form" which normal battle sisters worship.



Next month we will have the Sisters fighting the Tyranids, if things are as bad as it seems I guess it's fitting to have 2 mediocre armies fighting each other, wouldn't surprise me if the Sisters lost or by some fluke barely managed to get a tie.


----------



## SilverTabby

Tahiri said:


> Hugely disappointed with this release. So many things to rant about...
> 
> Two new special characters both of are male and and not even that good compared to so many other factions independent characters. Celestine needs to be dropped down to like 150-175 points
> 
> Faith getting totally nerfed into the ground. The only thing that made SoB competitive was the ability to get your Cannoness to 2++ and on higher initiative then other independent characters. But now she can not get either of those and reduced down to a 3+ save (which maybe you can still buy her a 2+ in wargear).
> 
> They even nerfed Seraphims down to 3 Initiate so you have to take a Cannoness with them and then get two 66% chances in assault to go on the same initiate as marines...
> 
> Love how everything is 1 Initiative lower then Marines, even the Penitent Eng is 1 Int lower then a Dreadnaught...
> 
> You only get a D6 faith points a turn, so if you have a 500 point army that is great but if you have 2500 you are screwed? They are also lost at the end of “your” turn so you do not even get them during your opponent’s turn...
> 
> So faith in summary has completely changed from the old faith in a not good way, in old faith you typically had more faith points then you could use in a given turn, and now you do not have nearly enough faith points a turn to use.
> 
> I guess they did make Repentia a little better by giving them FnP as a base rule, but they well still die before they ever get into melee.
> 
> Immolaters no longer having the special rule of being able to shot its flamers after moving 12, and not being fast, and not getting any sort of bonus to armor makes them pretty much useless now.
> 
> Exorcists, from the fluff it says can 'destroy a whole squad in one salvo'. Anyone think they well change exorcists missiles. Make them like S8 Ap1, or S4 A5 or something alone the lines of normal missiles?
> 
> I suppose we could also still hold out hope that all squads can be upgraded with “Blessed Ammo” akin to “Psybolt Ammo.”
> 
> 
> It well all come down to the point costs of things and how much gear you can give each squad. But as it stands now your best bet is probably running Canonesses with Command Squads for relentless heavy weapons with FnP.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah and 6++ save across the board is easily the must useless thing ever...


Yes, there are things you can rant about if you were pinning your hopes on a new Dex quality release. However, I am happy enough with this as its pretty much what I expected, and will explain why...

1) "No new units - where're my Frateris?"
They were unlikely to ever be in a WD Dex, along with anything that isn't a current unit. This is actually a good thing, and points towards new figs and units in a later Dex. Putting something new in a WD Dex means lots of people buying or using counts-as models. Net result? When the new models get released, fewer people buy them as they already have appropriate ones. 

2) "D6 Faith per turn? That sucks..."
For larger armies, maybe. However, you could always houserule D6 per 1k, so at 2k you'd get 2D6...
Also, I can see why they did it and it's a good game-balance reason. With a set pool, it's all too easy to hoarde them til the end, then burn them all in a huge orgy of invulnerable saves on objectives and rallying all your last 1-girl squads to deny kill points. This way, use of AoF are not game-defining, but an extra, and their use is spread across the whole game. 

3) "Limited AoF? But I want everyone to be able to do everything..."
You don't send a Retributor to do a Seraphim's job. Specific AoF make each squads roles better defined. Retributors shoot things. Battle Sisters are fire support and run away a lot. Celestians are best as bodyguards for Canonesses (I rarely took them as anything but). And even in the old Codex, relying on AoF to win was a bad idea. They were always an extra. 

4) "A 6+ invulnerable save? Utterly useless..."
No, no save at all would be utterly useless. I prefer a 1/6 chance of stopping a lascannon shot to a 0/6 one. And the tanks get it too. Plus I prefer that to the 5+ never-got-used-ever psychic defense... Also don't forget we have yet to see wargear. There may be ways to improve that save. Laud Hailers, maybe?

5) "They are all I3 now..."
Sisters were always Guardsmen in Power Armour. It is entirely thematicly correct that only the very best could hope to match a marine in Initiative, and only the girl right at the top could beat one. I agree that it sucks, but it's in keeping with the rest of the universe. At least there -is- still a way to be faster than a Guardsman...

6) "Immolators suck"
We haven't seen their options yet. Yes, the fire points are gone. You may be able to take Holy Promethium or equivalent that allows move'n'fire though, or have 2 heavy flamer sponsons for extra toasty goodness... Though access points on the sides may mean Immolators are just Rhinos with a gun now. 

In all, I have to read it all a bit more, but I'm not unhappy with this, and if costs have come down then this may prove a good stop-gap list...


----------



## TeDasCuen

Isn't a bite weird that a Living Saint doesn't have AoF? Sta. Celestine only can gain the effects of the AoF of the unit were she joined. I cant imagine a Saint that cant done herself AoF.


----------



## Katie Drake

I think the idea is that Celestine is to have the same Act of Faith as a normal Cannoness (which would make her pretty vicious).


----------



## Doelago

Tahiri said:


> Love how everything is 1 Initiative lower then Marines, even the Penitent Eng is 1 Int lower then a Dreadnaught...


And why the hell should they be Initiative 4? They are not immortal super humans with a shit load of inplants, so why should they be equal? 

They should not. That`s what. 

At least it wont stop me from starting a new army.


----------



## Necrosis

Doelago said:


> And why the hell should they be Initiative 4? They are not immortal super humans with a shit load of inplants, so why should they be equal?
> 
> They should not. That`s what.
> 
> At least it wont stop me from starting a new army.


Super Humans are also S4 and T4. We don't want S4 and T4. We want our Elite and best train to be I4. A guardsmen with furious charge is also I4 (not to mention s4 to). I'm really disappointed that Seraphim's and Celestine are I3. Also disappointed how acts of faith work now. All in all I'm disappointed.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think this video sums it all up pretty well... if you imagine the Heavy being any colour of Spheeeze Mehreeeene


----------



## Tahiri

SilverTabby said:


> Yes, there are things you can rant about if you were pinning your hopes on a new Dex quality release. However, I am happy enough with this as its pretty much what I expected, and will explain why...
> 
> 1) "No new units - where're my Frateris?"
> They were unlikely to ever be in a WD Dex, along with anything that isn't a current unit. This is actually a good thing, and points towards new figs and units in a later Dex. Putting something new in a WD Dex means lots of people buying or using counts-as models. Net result? When the new models get released, fewer people buy them as they already have appropriate ones.
> 
> Lets just hope we actually do get a proper new codex, new models and such in the near future, would like to keep playing SoB and not fully change to DE like I have been leaning for a while.
> 
> 2) "D6 Faith per turn? That sucks..."
> For larger armies, maybe. However, you could always houserule D6 per 1k, so at 2k you'd get 2D6...
> Also, I can see why they did it and it's a good game-balance reason. With a set pool, it's all too easy to hoarde them til the end, then burn them all in a huge orgy of invulnerable saves on objectives and rallying all your last 1-girl squads to deny kill points. This way, use of AoF are not game-defining, but an extra, and their use is spread across the whole game.
> 
> We should not be forced to house rule balance issues. Looking at that from anyside just seems so badly designed.
> 
> 
> 3) "Limited AoF? But I want everyone to be able to do everything..."
> You don't send a Retributor to do a Seraphim's job. Specific AoF make each squads roles better defined. Retributors shoot things. Battle Sisters are fire support and run away a lot. Celestians are best as bodyguards for Canonesses (I rarely took them as anything but). And even in the old Codex, relying on AoF to win was a bad idea. They were always an extra.
> 
> I dont really mind that they made specific acts for each unit that does make a lot more sense. It just seems that every squad should still be able to rally with the old Light of the Emp, as that was the most fluffy (but rarely used) AoF.
> 
> 4) "A 6+ invulnerable save? Utterly useless..."
> No, no save at all would be utterly useless. I prefer a 1/6 chance of stopping a lascannon shot to a 0/6 one. And the tanks get it too. Plus I prefer that to the 5+ never-got-used-ever psychic defense... Also don't forget we have yet to see wargear. There may be ways to improve that save. Laud Hailers, maybe?
> 
> Its only useful for vehicles, which I am surprised they actually gave it to. If it was not on the vehicles and even now that it is, I would still rather take the 5+ ignore psychic powers. (And I rarely play against psychers...)
> 
> 5) "They are all I3 now..."
> Sisters were always Guardsmen in Power Armour. It is entirely thematicly correct that only the very best could hope to match a marine in Initiative, and only the girl right at the top could beat one. I agree that it sucks, but it's in keeping with the rest of the universe. At least there -is- still a way to be faster than a Guardsman...
> 
> Assualt trops with Jump Packs should not be religated to I3... Serpahims and Celestians both took hits from 4 to 3. Rest of the Universe... laugh.. All Eldar are 4+, nearly all DE are 5+, even Nids are 4+
> 
> 6) "Immolators suck"
> We haven't seen their options yet. Yes, the fire points are gone. You may be able to take Holy Promethium or equivalent that allows move'n'fire though, or have 2 heavy flamer sponsons for extra toasty goodness... Though access points on the sides may mean Immolators are just Rhinos with a gun now.
> 
> I did not even notice they took its firepoint away...
> 
> In all, I have to read it all a bit more, but I'm not unhappy with this, and if costs have come down then this may prove a good stop-gap list...


 
See purple.


----------



## Necrosis

Also to add, Seraphim's having hit and run at Int 3 is pretty bad.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Katie Drake said:


> I think the idea is that Celestine is to have the same Act of Faith as a normal Cannoness (which would make her pretty vicious).


If you look the scan, Saint Celestine has the _Acts of Faith_ rule but none AoF, as Ecclesiarchy characters. In the Acts of Faith rule page doesn't appear any AoF list. 

Perhaps in the September WD, in the list options we can see something like: 

:angel: [...] Saint Celestine can use the AoF: _The Passion_, _The Emperor's Deliverance_...​
Like psi-powers list available for Librarians appears in the 5th edition codexs. :dunno:


----------



## Tahiri

Katie Drake said:


> I think the idea is that Celestine is to have the same Act of Faith as a normal Cannoness (which would make her pretty vicious).


Only that she does not, or she would have "The Passion" in her special rules with a reference to the Canoness page.

So only way she can actually use faith is to join a group. And she would realy only ever join a Seraphim squad, thus giving a twin leaked flamer... oh boy that is great...


I wonder if the Hospitaller and Dialogus well actually have things that affect an area or if it that well be limited to its own squad. I would not put much hope on it being AoE as that is only reserved for SM...


----------



## Necrosis

That problem with attaching Saint Celestine with a Seraphim Squad is that they would no longer be able to use hit and run cause Saint Celestine no longer has it. Then again at Int 3, you have a 50% of failing it.


----------



## Tahiri

Necrosis said:


> Also to add, Seraphim's having hit and run at Int 3 is pretty bad.


 
50% which yes is bad, but at least its not as bad as Kopptas and there 33% chance...


----------



## Katie Drake

Jeez, you guys are such downers. This army is going to be vicious on the tabletop.

I can't be 100% certain on anything of course, but I'm generally quite good at making predictions and here's how I see it.

Uriah Jacobus - Will be extremely popular for his Faith-boosting abilities, let alone his ability to buff a single unit with +1A and FNP. Think about a unit of Celestians with that guy in tow charging into combat. With the Celestians Act of Faith they'll be WS4 S4 A4 with Feel No Pain. When you factor in a Superior's close combat wargear I can see them doing some pretty significant damage to most units of infantry.

Cannoness - The cheap HQ choice. Will likely be popular in armies that are heavily mech because she won't cost a lot, will have access to a decent range of gear and buffs any unit she joins considerably with an Act of Faith. +1I and Preferred Enemy will be devastating alongside Celestians, especially if the Celestians can trigger their own act.

Battle Sister Squad - Will probably be quite good in a Rhino parked in the midfield firing their multi-melta out of the top hatch at targets of opportunity and perhaps scooting forward to deliver a volley of bolter and flamer fire at infantry that expose themselves.

Dominions - Will be crazy popular in mech armies. 5 of them in an Immolator moving forward 12", disembarking and firing 4x meltaguns at tanks or 4x flamers at infantry with twin-linked will spell death for anything unlucky enough to get shot at. Even should the Act of Faith fail I think we can agree that 4 flamers or meltaguns will make a mess of almost anything.

Seraphim - GW sort of messed up by giving them I3 since Hit and Run is dependent on Initiative, but it's possible that Hit and Run will change in 6th so this might just be a temporary rough patch. Even still, being able to fire all their weapons twice with potential for re-rolling failed to wound rolls is vicious. Sure, Seraphims aren't super assault units, but they shouldn't be - Sisters are humans with excellent equipment and the power of faith.

I think a lot of people in this thread (and probably on every other site) are going through a knee jerk reaction and are utterly freaking out over nothing. The fact is that nobody here knows:

1) How many points things cost.
2) What wargear options are available.
3) What certain upgrades that we know exist can do.

People, relax. Look for ways to utilize the new rules rather than spending time bitching and moaning about things lost.


----------



## Synack

D6 faith per turn sucks bad tbh. The rest looks okay, I just not liking the D6. If it had been per squad, that would have been awesome... oh well, we'll see.


----------



## Necrosis

Okay guys, I came up with a nasty combo. Use a squad of death cult assassins and throw in Jacobus. Now they have feel no pain and 5 attacks on the charge rerolling failed to hit.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Necrosis said:


> Okay guys, I came up with a nasty combo. Use a squad of death cult assassins and throw in Jacobus. Now they have feel no pain and 5 attacks on the charge rerolling failed to hit.


As I posted before, add to this some Crusaders and you'll have a really nice unit. :wink:


----------



## FatBoyFat

thing that disappoints me the most.. no new models!


----------



## TeDasCuen

This is a "temporal" codex, that is an adaptation to 5th edition rules. It cant to include new units because don't exist currently new miniature releases, then they only can make a codex adaptation with the current miniatures.

Don't worry for that, with the real next codex we'll have got a lot of new stuff. :wink:


----------



## SilverTabby

Tahiri said:


> See purple.


Re: The issues you raise with other armies initiative:

The thing you seem to be missing is that Sisters are _human_, and gun-bunnies. They are not a CC specialist army like Nids, nor hugely fragile but super-agile and expensive elves. They are guardsmen in power armour. 

Yes, Hit and Run suffers with Seraphim. But one special rule needing good initiative doesn't make a higher I balance out ith all the other instances where I is a factor. 

To others saying it should be D6 Faith per unit:
Why? 
Acts are a seasoning, not the meat. They are something that should happen occasionally, to add to the fight. A Miracle that happens on demand, repeatedly, is not a miracle. 

Besides, sometimes even the Emperor just wants to put the answerphone on and chill in front of the tv for a while. :wink:


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> Re: The issues you raise with other armies initiative:
> 
> The thing you seem to be missing is that Sisters are _human_, and gun-bunnies. They are not a CC specialist army like Nids, nor hugely fragile but super-agile and expensive elves. They are guardsmen in power armour.
> 
> Yes, Hit and Run suffers with Seraphim. But one special rule needing good initiative doesn't make a higher I balance out ith all the other instances where I is a factor.
> 
> To others saying it should be D6 Faith per unit:
> Why?
> Acts are a seasoning, not the meat. They are something that should happen occasionally, to add to the fight. A Miracle that happens on demand, repeatedly, is not a miracle.
> 
> Besides, sometimes even the Emperor just wants to put the answerphone on and chill in front of the tv for a while. :wink:


Guardsmen are human yet they can reach I4 by having creed yell at them or just by being close to Straken (not to mention s4). We aren't taking about regular sisters, were talking about the Elite, the ones meant for close combat. Also there not guardsmen in power armour there more like storm troopers in power armour. I mean look at death cult assassins, there human and yet they are I6. They put space marines and even eldar to shame.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> The thing you seem to be missing is that Sisters are _human_, and gun-bunnies. They are not a CC specialist army like Nids, nor hugely fragile but super-agile and expensive elves. They are guardsmen in power armour.


I wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't for the fact their their Act of Faith is only useful in assault...

So what you are saying is that they are no meant for CC and that the Acts of Faith are seasoning that shouldn't be relied upon yet it is the only thing that makes the Sisters of Battle special and each unit only gets a single AoF specifically tailored for them and in Celestians case it's a CC oriented power for a phase they are not meant to be in from the get go....

Yeah that makes sense, it's does, it's GW we are talking about :crazy:


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yeah that makes sense, it's does, it's GW we are talking about :crazy:


Explains everything. Who wrote the rules anyway?


----------



## Necrosis

That is a good question, who did write the rules. I want to say matt ward but I know he didn't cause if he did we would have way better rules.


----------



## Grogbart

Anyone else got the feeling GW let an apprentice do this WDex?

Or does including 'no TA in Immo' in an army that hasn't access to TA (allies gone!) mean in reverse, that in a two-on-two game units of the same team get to use each others transports and thus, Terminators can hop into Wave Serpents or Devilfish???

Is all that downgrading a desperate attempt to get SoB players to buy at least some Blistered Sisters? (downgraded stats-> cheaper point-costs -> more models needed for same-sized games)

But as mentioned before, most things need to be seen in relation to the second part of the dex, or even 6th Ed.

Maybe in 6th Ed, Initiative won't be the primarily deciding stat in close combat anymore!? Maybe a BF of 7, will have some effect on template weapons...

Now, to end on a more conciliatory note, I like the Canoness having WS 5.


----------



## Doelago

Necrosis said:


> That is a good question, who did write the rules. I want to say matt ward but I know he didn't cause if he did we would have way better rules.


I thought people have been saying that he hates the Sisters and that he would give them deep shit rules if he wrote them.


----------



## Necrosis

It doesn't matter, its Matt Ward, he would probably turn them into female space marines.


----------



## Creon

I think the no TA in Immolators is for Apok games where you can have allied armies using each other's stuff. Or it's just something they're gonna start putting in everything for completeness. 

I think D6 faith is not the best, but I also think it's gonna work fine. My sisters are busy dusting off their Power Armor, and the Death Cult and Crusaders will stop marking time over with the Grey Knights  Now if only the Land Raiders hadn't disappeared with the ]I[ folk...


----------



## oiad

SilverTabby said:


> Re: The issues you raise with other armies initiative:
> 
> The thing you seem to be missing is that Sisters are human, and gun-bunnies. They are not a CC specialist army like Nids, nor hugely fragile but super-agile and expensive elves. They are guardsmen in power armour.


Ugh, the whole I3 argument so far sounds like typically laughable, SM-fanatic bullcuss. You don't see Inquisitors getting and reduction on their I4 for armour upgrades and Celestine for all her Saintliness rapes much of the SM army lists in Initiative terms - yet she's just a S3/T3 human weakling in a PA variation too. Just accept it for what it really is - an arbitrary decision made by the writer to suit his concepts for the codex. For what it's worth Sororitas players (as a MEQ player firstmost) I feel the I3 nerf was a bad decision. Despite all the first impressions of this release I hope the army still remains a fair challenge.


----------



## Azezel

Faith took a big hit, but d6 points/turn doesn't matter since most faith powers aren't actually worth bothering with. Only dominins and Retributors have Acts that mean anything, the Canonness has an actively harmful Act*

There are really two ways next months conclusion can go, both disturbing.

Either point costs are similar to what they are now, in which case we're sunk, or point costs are drasticly cut, in which case most of us will no longer have enough minis to put together an army, and we can't realistically buy more.

So yeah, looking grim.



*Do you ever get the feeling that GW writers don't realise that Fearless is a _bad thing_. They seem to think the rule is an an advantage, not a flaw that makes the unit worse.


----------



## Necrosis

I think your getting the Canoness act of faith mix up with the Celestian one. The canoness is plus 1I and preferred enemy, Celestians is plus 1 strength and fearless. I like the canoness act of faith cause it allows use to strike at i4.


----------



## TheSpore

Azezel said:


> Faith took a big hit, but d6 points/turn doesn't matter since most faith powers aren't actually worth bothering with. Only dominins and Retributors have Acts that mean anything, the Canonness has an actively harmful Act*
> 
> There are really two ways next months conclusion can go, both disturbing.
> 
> Either point costs are similar to what they are now, in which case we're sunk, or point costs are drasticly cut, in which case most of us will no longer have enough minis to put together an army, and we can't realistically buy more.
> 
> So yeah, looking grim.
> 
> 
> 
> *Do you ever get the feeling that GW writers don't realise that Fearless is a _bad thing_. They seem to think the rule is an an advantage, not a flaw that makes the unit worse.


Finally someone agrees that Fearless is a penalty and not an award!!!! Its more a double edge sword witha an extra sharper edge on one end, Im so tired of watching greater daemons and DPs, or anyof of my daemon army killing itself just because they lost a round of combat, it makes no sense why I take double wounds just because I lost combat when combat has ended...

Anayway why do Celest.s have I 3 and not 4 and why do they gain extra S. That really nerfs that unit since besides serahims they were the best CC unit we had.


----------



## Zion

TheSpore said:


> Finally someone agrees that Fearless is a penalty and not an award!!!! Its more a double edge sword witha an extra sharper edge on one end, Im so tired of watching greater daemons and DPs, or anyof of my daemon army killing itself just because they lost a round of combat, it makes no sense why I take double wounds just because I lost combat when combat has ended...


You take extra wounds because someone mixed up "fearless" and "suicidal". A person who is fearless wouldn't break and run, sure. But it doesn't mean they'll allow themselves to mindlessly be trampled underfoot.

It's like the rage rule making units into mindless beserkers. You can be filled with inhuman fury and still be rational (the trope 'Tranquil Fury' comes to mind from tvtropes). I'd much rather rage giving free rerolls to hit AND to wound during the first round of combat with the addition that they get a bonus to their normal movement during the movement phase because their anger drives them further and faster. So say, +d3" movement (a nice bonus, but hardly game breaking), with the rerolls during the first round of combat. 

But then again I'm not a game designer. I'm just mentioning what I think would make the game more interesting and the units that have said rules be more fun to use.


----------



## Katie Drake

Sisters can afford to be bad at close combat, Death Cult Assassins led by a Priest will solve all your melee-related problems.


----------



## Grogbart

Katie Drake said:


> Sisters can afford to be bad at close combat, Death Cult Assassins led by a Priest will solve all your melee-related problems.


 Seems like the old GW pattern of 'nerf the old to get the new ones sold', which would make Finecast Acro-Flagellants, Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins a bit more likely to come with the second part, isn't it?


----------



## mahavira

Fearless is not a huge issue unless you a) have no armor to speak of or b) routinely lose melee by a lot, and even if you lose melee by a lot it's still better than being caught in a sweeping advance, no?. In the meantime you ignore pinning and breaking due to being shot up, and only one in 3 of those extra wounds actually does anything to you. Celestians now have 2 attacks (we'll see whether wargear options in the army list allow changing to pistol and ccw), and with their act of faith finally S4. They only take a couple of wounds from attacking a tactical squad once armor is factored in, then dish out a similar number if their AoF kicks off, more potentially more if they have special weapons or an upgrade char. Can they attack vanguard veterans and win? I would hope not, actually. Will they take the charge of a mob of boyz? Probably not (damn nob with powerclaw), but they'll certainly make more of an impression on one than they used to, and they can now charge a trukk sized unit of boyz and win, which was not an option before.

Repentia: an extra attack, fnp (which we've all been asking for forever), and I don't see any rule preventing them from getting into transports anymore. What exactly is the problem here? Granted they are probably going to lose out to squads of death cultists and acro flagellants (we used to have substandard land raiders, now just substandard acroflagellants?), and an assault transport would be nice (not that we had one even when we DID have LRs) but at least they're now no worse off than many other armies' close combat troops, and a unit of FNP eviscerator (aka chain fist) troops who can still make an attack even if killed before they go doesn't sound too bad to me.

Not knowing point costs or wargear options/rules (though the picture of the sister superior with a plasma pistol at least suggests all my VSS models are still legal) it's impossible to say whether this is a usable update, but I can't say I object to anything on its face (other than having my ordo assassinorum assassins and inquisition models rendered unusable, and maybe the init loss for celestians and seraphim). Hell, they even came up with a change that made dominions actually different: scouts and the ability to go TL?

The changes to how to do acts of faith: I for one hated keeping track of a constant pool over the course of the game, and often found myself needing an act of faith that the unit could no longer do reliably because of unit size, so the d6 modified by various factors sounds fine to me.


----------



## Katie Drake

mahavira said:


> Fearless is not a huge issue unless you a) have no armor to speak of or b) routinely lose melee by a lot, and even if you lose melee by a lot it's still better than being caught in a sweeping advance, no?.


No, because it's almost always better to break and die so that the offending enemy unit can be shot up than to stay in a losing fight for a second round and end up losing in your own turn.



> In the meantime you ignore pinning and breaking due to being shot up, and only one in 3 of those extra wounds actually does anything to you.


Pinning rarely happens and few units with Ld9 will break from shooting causalities because there are almost never any Ld modifiers from shooting.



> Celestians now have 2 attacks (we'll see whether wargear options in the army list allow changing to pistol and ccw), and with their act of faith finally S4. They only take a couple of wounds from attacking a tactical squad once armor is factored in, then dish out a similar number if their AoF kicks off, more potentially more if they have special weapons or an upgrade char. Can they attack vanguard veterans and win? I would hope not, actually. Will they take the charge of a mob of boyz? Probably not (damn nob with powerclaw), but they'll certainly make more of an impression on one than they used to, and they can now charge a trukk sized unit of boyz and win, which was not an option before.


Exactly. I honestly think Sisters players were spoiled by the last Codex and got the idea that they're supposed to be able to stand against assault specialists and win when the Battle Sisters have always been primarily a close ranged shooting army. The ability to become Fearless on a whim, activate an excellent Invulnerable save, increase Strength or Initiative to beyond Space Marine levels or make Attacks rending-lite has made Sisters players feel entitled to defeating basically anything if they can activate their Faith powers. I really wish that Witch Hunters had kept Faith more toned down because now we have to put up with months, if not years of moaning about how Sisters have been nerfed etc.



> Repentia: an extra attack, fnp (which we've all been asking for forever), and I don't see any rule preventing them from getting into transports anymore. What exactly is the problem here? Granted they are probably going to lose out to squads of death cultists and acro flagellants (we used to have substandard land raiders, now just substandard acroflagellants?), and an assault transport would be nice (not that we had one even when we DID have LRs) but at least they're now no worse off than many other armies' close combat troops, and a unit of FNP eviscerator (aka chain fist) troops who can still make an attack even if killed before they go doesn't sound too bad to me.


Repentia are great, but I don't think it will be wise to take more than a single unit. Ideally, these girls would want to steal the ride of a squad of Retributors or something and find a high priority target to assault. If they can assault a worthwhile target, that target will probably die even if all the Repentia die first as long as the Faith power goes off (which it should more often than not).

I agree that a Land Raider-esque ability to assault from a moving transport would be great, but it isn't strictly necessary for the unit to be successful (I do it all the time with my Flesh Tearers). Repentia are actually fairly resilient with a 6+ Invul and then Feel No Pain so they should be able to weather a single round of shooting so long as they aren't eating assault cannon (or similar) shots.



> Not knowing point costs or wargear options/rules (though the picture of the sister superior with a plasma pistol at least suggests all my VSS models are still legal) it's impossible to say whether this is a usable update, but I can't say I object to anything on its face (other than having my ordo assassinorum assassins and inquisition models rendered unusable, and maybe the init loss for celestians and seraphim). Hell, they even came up with a change that made dominions actually different: scouts and the ability to go TL?


Dominions are going to be flat out retarded. It's going to be awesome. Dominions with 4x meltaguns are going to be able to annihilate any tank with ease and I would imagine that Retributors with 4x heavy flamers and Rending can kill... um, anything, basically.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Someone said that Celestians now have 4 attacks on the charge, I still think it's only 3 as they dont have a CCW. They only have a single bolt pistol but with their stats I wouldn't be surprised if they could swap out the boltgun for another pistol or a CCW. Heck why not a power weapon for all of them while we're at it?

Fearless for Celestians is rather useless, simply because it only lasts your own assault phase. It should have been Stubborn instead of Fearless but I guess we will have some way to enforce a Stubborn bubble.
I guess the point is that you are fearless in your own turn so that you dont get over run but then in your opponents turn you fail the ld and get run down leaving your target open for shooting.

So far Dominions seems the best unit we've got, 4 special weapons with scout rule is pretty neat. Let's hope we get a good transport to put them in once the real dex comes out.

This dex just seems like a way for them to sell off the last of their metal stock, every single unit in the codex has a model, a metal model...


----------



## SilverTabby

MadCowCrazy said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't for the fact their their Act of Faith is only useful in assault...
> 
> So what you are saying is that they are no meant for CC and that the Acts of Faith are seasoning that shouldn't be relied upon yet it is the only thing that makes the Sisters of Battle special and each unit only gets a single AoF specifically tailored for them and in Celestians case it's a CC oriented power for a phase they are not meant to be in from the get go....
> 
> Yeah that makes sense, it's does, it's GW we are talking about :crazy:


Context is everything, dear. I said Sisters aren't a CC specialist army in relation to their I issues. They do have troops more suited toCC, but even then Celestians aren't by any stretch of the imagination combat specialists. They're just a little better at it than a regular Sister. Their primary weapon is a boltgun and they have one cc weapon. That says fire support with emergency charging bonuses to me...


----------



## Grogbart

I truly admire your confidence in Dominions still being able to take four Special Weapons. With all the 'little surprises' in part one, I brace myself for some more of that in part two.


----------



## Katie Drake

Grogbart said:


> I truly admire your confidence in Dominions still being able to take four Special Weapons. With all the 'little surprises' in part one, I brace myself for some more of that in part two.


Don't worry, assuming Sisters players can stop whining long enough, I'm sure they'll enjoy blowing the crap out of vehicles with 4 twin-linked meltaguns.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Saw this over at Dakka and it made me laugh :crazy:



> I also noticed Celestine's resurrection ability is triggered when she is removed as casualty and not when she loses her last wound. If Daemons of Chaos turns her into a spawn using Boon of Mutation (in which chase she is removed as casualty), then she can resurrect again.


Is the same true if she is turned into a Squig by old zogworts?


----------



## TeDasCuen

Hmmm I didn't noticed this about Celestine. But that would be very rare, she would be the unique character immune to "_remove the miniature from the table_" rule. 

In my opinion, I don't guess that the rule would to make a reference to this, else to that if Celestine die (normal casualty, losing last wound, as you want name it) then place a mark...

But the question is "_[...] removed as a casualty..._", is whatever type of death? she can come back to life whether she is riddled with boltgun fire as if she suffers any attack that remove from the table? If this is true... This is amazing!!!! :yahoo:

I need any clarification about this rule. :dunno:


----------



## hells

TeDasCuen said:


> Hmmm I didn't noticed this about Celestine. But that would be very rare, she would be the unique character immune to "_remove the miniature from the table_" rule.
> 
> In my opinion, I don't guess that the rule would to make a reference to this, else to that if Celestine die (normal casualty, losing last wound, as you want name it) then place a mark...
> 
> I need any clarification about this rule. :dunno:


in the new grey knights codex they have juticator thawn with the same rule, but hes not as bad ass as a living saint.

on a side note am i the only one here that thinks battle sisters are going to roll over everyone now? everything seems so much better, powerfull, seraphim can get rerolls on thier invuns :O well next ttourney im at in late sept should be interesting but probably one sided D: like the new grey knights : /


----------



## AlexHolker

hells said:


> on a side note am i the only one here that thinks battle sisters are going to roll over everyone now?


Yes.



> everything seems so much better, powerfull, seraphim can get rerolls on thier invuns :O


And? It's still slightly worse than a 5++. Compared to the 3++ that was possible with the old Spirit of the Martyr, that's not that much of an improvement.


----------



## TeDasCuen

hells said:


> in the new grey knights codex they have juticator thawn with the same rule, but hes not as bad ass as a living saint.
> 
> on a side note am i the only one here that thinks battle sisters are going to roll over everyone now? everything seems so much better, powerfull, seraphim can get rerolls on thier invuns :O well next ttourney im at in late sept should be interesting but probably one sided D: like the new grey knights : /


True, Justicar Thawn rule is written equal (except that Celestine back with 1D3 wounds). But can Thawn back to life if lost his last wound AND if he is removed from the table? 
I'll go to see the FAQs.


----------



## hells

AlexHolker said:


> And? It's still slightly worse than a 5++. Compared to the 3++ that was possible with the old Spirit of the Martyr, that's not that much of an improvement.


a 3++ that isnt garantued and only used once per turn dont forget, each has its strengths and weaknesses and having a permanant invun seems a tad more usefull sometimes. 

on thawn, i havent read too much into him so im not sure hes exact roll on life but i know the living saint would be so much better, especially if shes unkillable :/


----------



## TheKingElessar

Hrmm, well, the loss of Fire points on the Immolator is a kick in the ...er...teeth, I guess.

No new units also seems sad/unlikely.

As ever, this '6th Ed before giving all Codexes a 5e book' rumour scares the pants off me. 

EDIT: Hells, if having Cover 'all the time' like everyone claims everything does, isn't enough for Marines to ALWAYS winzorz, then their T3 compatriots are hardly going to sweep all before them either.

Let's see points costs before we make grandiose claims, huh?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here's a conundrum :crazy:

Old Zogworts curse says you replace the target model with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent.

In this case Celestine would be replaced with a Squig as she is technically not removed as a casualty and as no kill point is rewarded for doing this.

Now, if the Squig is then killed she is removed as a casualty.

Conundrum: Zogworst curse says "It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an IC that counts as Infantry". So if she is killed as a Squig do you take into consideration her normal rules or the new rules as a Squig?

My personal guess would be that she is simply killed and unable to come back as she was replaced by a model that has no special rules.


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> Context is everything, dear. I said Sisters aren't a CC specialist army in relation to their I issues. They do have troops more suited toCC, but even then Celestians aren't by any stretch of the imagination combat specialists. They're just a little better at it than a regular Sister. Their primary weapon is a boltgun and they have one cc weapon. That says fire support with emergency charging bonuses to me...


Then whats the point of taking close combat orientated troops? Celestiens are made for close combat but they can't even beat space marine tactical squad then there is a problem. Hell even guards close combat troops can beat tactical marines in close combat (rough riders and ogryns) but ours can't? Why take Celestiens at all then? Tell me? They suck in close combat and they cost more points then a battle sister and they don't score? So why should I ever take them instead of a battle sister squad?


----------



## Tanarri

MadCowCrazy said:


> Conundrum: Zogworst curse says "It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an IC that counts as Infantry". So if she is killed as a Squig do you take into consideration her normal rules or the new rules as a Squig?
> 
> My personal guess would be that she is simply killed and unable to come back as she was replaced by a model that has no special rules.


She should come back as a Squig


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rules Lawyering Time!
Act of Faith system: "The unit immediately gains a bonus and/or special rules until the end of the phase."

Sororitas Command Squad: "This Act of Faith is used in the MOVEMENT phase. If successful the unit gains the Relentless and MTC USR until the end of the turn."

I'm sure an asshole would claim that since the rules for acts of faith state they only last 1 phase that this AoF would only last the movement phase 

Force Org question.

Gw usually has their force org organized like this: HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Special Characters

So does this mean :

*HQ*
Canoness
Sororitas Command Squads
Ecclesiarchy
Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves

*Elite*
Sisters Repentia
Penitent Engine

*Troops*
Battle Sisters
Celestian Squads

*Fast Attack*
Dominion Squads
Seraphim Squads

*Heavy Support*
Retributor Squads
Exorcists

I know I've read from one of the rumours leakers that there would only be 2 units per force org slot.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Rules Lawyering Time!
> Act of Faith system: "The unit immediately gains a bonus and/or special rules until the end of the phase."
> 
> Sororitas Command Squad: "This Act of Faith is used in the MOVEMENT phase. If successful the unit gains the Relentless and MTC USR until the end of the turn."
> 
> I'm sure an asshole would claim that since the rules for acts of faith state they only last 1 phase that this AoF would only last the movement phase


And they'd be right.


----------



## Hurricane

For you all to enjoy! SCANS!

http://s1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff379/Drachnon/

Found on another site. If these are not allowed I will remove the link asap.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Already posted 10 pages back and all the info is on the first page. I was amongst the people to ask the guy to put up the scans on B&C.


----------



## Hurricane

Ah apologies then. I don't keep up with SoB rumors, but I should have known you enthusiasts would have gotten to it first :biggrin: .


----------



## Necrosis

I just realize Repentia only make 1 attack per model when they die using the act of faith instead of there full attacks. That being said I still plan on using them, just give them a transport (or get them to borrow someone elses) and send them towards the enemy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just saw this, any thoughts?



SabrX said:


> I don't see anything stopping a unit from using the same Act of Faith more than once. +6 strength Celestians anyone?


----------



## TeDasCuen

Another case problematic for the Celestine back to life:

Is a _jump infantry_, then She can make a _deep strike_. What if when doing a _deep strike_ goes out of the table or over a miniature and in the error deep strike table is destroyed by rolling '1' or '2'? :laugh:


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Then whats the point of taking close combat orientated troops? Celestiens are made for close combat but they can't even beat space marine tactical squad then there is a problem. Hell even guards close combat troops can beat tactical marines in close combat (rough riders and ogryns) but ours can't? Why take Celestiens at all then? Tell me? They suck in close combat and they cost more points then a battle sister and they don't score? So why should I ever take them instead of a battle sister squad?


Seraphim are cose combat oriented troops. Celestians are Battle Sisters with an extra attack and slightly more chance of surviving combat than a regular Sister. Seriously, viewing them as the army's CC option isn't a good idea. They hold parts of the battlefield better than regular troops, and are likely to have better gun options, but stop wishing they could match other armies CC troops, because that's not what they do best. Celestian Retinues are where you look for better chances in CC, but even then you're missing the point of the army.

_Sisters are a gun-bunny army, not a CC one._ Play to the armies strengths, rather than bemoaning its failings.


----------



## Grogbart

MadCowCrazy said:


> Force Org question.
> 
> Gw usually has their force org organized like this: HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Special Characters
> 
> So does this mean :
> 
> *HQ*
> Canoness
> Sororitas Command Squads
> Ecclesiarchy
> Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves
> 
> *Elite*
> Sisters Repentia
> Penitent Engine
> 
> *Troops*
> Battle Sisters
> Celestian Squads
> 
> *Fast Attack*
> Dominion Squads
> Seraphim Squads
> 
> *Heavy Support*
> Retributor Squads
> Exorcists
> 
> I know I've read from one of the rumours leakers that there would only be 2 units per force org slot.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Looking at the Grey Knights Codex, any order they might have had in the force org, is no more. So my humble guess would be:

*Elite*
Celestian Squads
Sisters Repentia

*Troops*
Battle Sisters
Dominion Squads

*Fast Attack*
Seraphim Squads
Penitent Engine

*Heavy Support*
Retributor Squads
Exorcists


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> Seraphim are cose combat oriented troops. Celestians are Battle Sisters with an extra attack and slightly more chance of surviving combat than a regular Sister. Seriously, viewing them as the army's CC option isn't a good idea. They hold parts of the battlefield better than regular troops, and are likely to have better gun options, but stop wishing they could match other armies CC troops, because that's not what they do best. Celestian Retinues are where you look for better chances in CC, but even then you're missing the point of the army.
> 
> _Sisters are a gun-bunny army, not a CC one._ Play to the armies strengths, rather than bemoaning its failings.


Seraphims are I3, they will still get there ass handed to them by space marines and won't even be able to use hit and run well. Celestians are the close combat sisters, it even says so in the codex, hell there act of faith is done in the close combat phase for close combat. So why give them an act of faith for close combat if there not a close combat troop? We don't view them as a close combat army. We just want our close combat troops to be decent in combat, we want to be able to kill a space marine tactical squad when we assault them. Do I want my close combat troops to be able to defeat the space marine close combat troops? No. I want my close combat troops to be able to defeat a devastator squad, not a vanguard or even assault squad, just a devastator squad but no we won't be able to even do that. Close combat is what 40k is all about. Have you even read the Codex, seraphims are the ones who are going to get the nice guns, not celestians. You say there going to hold the battlefield better then other troops? No there not, cause there going to lose combat, fail leadership and get run down.

You want to talk about playing this army strengths? Instead of it's weakness? Lets take a look at it's weakness.

Leadership, seeing how the canoness has stubborn that means book is now gone. Meaning we don't have a way to deal with leadership. What's that you say I can regroup using faith? But wait weren't a whole bunch of people, including the person who wrote this said, don't rely on faith? So I guess we can throw that idea out and not all units have a way to regroup.

Long range (both anti tank and anti infantry), all we have is the excorist and retributor squad for long range. Everything else is for 24 inch range. Immolator no longer has fire point and can't move 12 and still shot.

Limited Weapons, can only use flamers, bolters and meltas, no plasmas, no missile launchers, no lascannons or any other Imperial weapon. Just stuck with those 3 types of weapons which limits us on the battlefield.

Movement: We can only move 12 at most (expect seraphims if they run). Every 5th edition army can move faster then this. Space marines have bikes (and some have Storm Ravens), Guard have Valkyries and vendettas and some fast tanks to. Dark Eldar, do I even have to talk about them? Tyranids have the monsterous creature that comes out of the ground, they also have beasts which has an assault threat of 19 to 24.

No Psychic Defense.

And as you said, close combat.

So that's 6 weakness. So what is these army strength, shooting? Not really if you think about it. With divine guidance now gone, sisters of battle can't shot that well. It's not bad but it's not really something to get excitied about either. So this army has 6 weakness and no powerful strengths.


----------



## Necrosis

On a different note, anyone else notice that there nothing stopping you from using the same act of faith more then once? I5 Command Squad, S6 Celestians?


----------



## TeDasCuen

We need to wait for 2nd part of codex. The unit options and wargear description can give us many surprises like:

*Twin-linked heavy flamer*
_Description_
Range___F AP Type________________________________________________________
Template 5 4 Assault 1, twin-linked, mounted on vehicles can move 12" and shoot.​


Each unit can have a list of AoF that this unit can use. Example:

*CELESTIAN SQUAD*

*Special rules:* 

Acts of Faith
Shield of Faith
*Acts of Faith:* 

Hand of the Emperor
Light if the Emperor
*Options:*

Can replace...


I guess than higher been the rank of the unit, it will be access to more AoF. Think a bite on this example: Celestians are "veterans", they must to have been regular Sisters of Battle (troop) time ago and keep their old AoF. 
Hmmm, I think that I can explain it best: if regular SoB troops can immediately regroup using an AoF, "veterans" (Celestians) Sisters don't cant? 
Or with other words: a regular SoB troop that lose more of 50% of sisters and retreat can regroup using an AoF but honorable and legendary Celestians and Seraphims cant? Have no sense. icknose:


----------



## Necrosis

I wonder what the banners will do? They might be like the space marine banners, where it's plus 1 to combat resolution and reroll failed leadership. Might simply just give angelic visage (seraphims) or maybe, just maybe they might give us furious charge which would explain why they lowered Seraphims and Celestians to I3. Come on Furious Charge Banner!


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

TeDasCuen said:


> We need to wait for 2nd part of codex. The unit options and wargear description can give us many surprises like:
> 
> *Twin-linked heavy flamer*
> _Description_
> Range___F AP Type________________________________________________________
> Template 5 4 Assault 1, twin-linked, mounted on vehicles can move 12" and shoot.​
> 
> 
> Each unit can have a list of AoF that this unit can use. Example:
> 
> *CELESTIAN SQUAD*
> 
> *Special rules:*
> 
> Acts of Faith
> Shield of Faith
> *Acts of Faith:*
> 
> Hand of the Emperor
> Light if the Emperor
> *Options:*
> 
> Can replace...
> 
> 
> I guess than higher been the rank of the unit, it will be access to more AoF. Think a bite on this example: Celestians are "veterans", they must to have been regular Sisters of Battle (troop) time ago and keep their old AoF.
> Hmmm, I think that I can explain it best: if regular SoB troops can immediately regroup using an AoF, "veterans" (Celestians) Sisters don't cant?
> Or with other words: a regular SoB troop that lose more of 50% of sisters and retreat can regroup using an AoF but honorable and legendary Celestians and Seraphims cant? Have no sense. icknose:


Well Celestians become fearless, and I am sure you can take a Cannoness with JP so Seraphim can be Stubborn. 

Cheers.


----------



## Necrosis

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> Well Celestians become fearless, and I am sure you can take a Cannoness with JP so Seraphim can be Stubborn.
> 
> Cheers.


Despite all my ranting this is actually a good idea, not only does the Canoness give them stubborn but also if she gets the act of faith off, preferred enemy and I4. Let's just hope gw allows the Canoness to still take a jump pack.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Necrosis said:


> Despite all my ranting this is actually a good idea, not only does the Canoness give them stubborn but also if she gets the act of faith off, preferred enemy and I4. Let's just hope gw allows the Canoness to still take a jump pack.


Well I was just perusing through it and until I see the Armylist section and Wargear section I can not say a word.

I have a bad feeling in my gut that Seraphim and Dominion squads weapons are going to be horribly expensive. They just scream that to me with the abilities they possess.

Again we have to wait, but there was a lot of nice streamlining even though I feel Faith was kicked in the pants a little.


----------



## rasolyo

Adding to what Necrosis said, the strengths that I feel can be addressed by the second half will be:

- how cheap our units will be, and
- how many of our FOC slots will be able to field anti-tank.

Faith now scales badly in higher-point games, and 6++ is just a cop-out replacement for what Spirit of the Martyr previously did.

I used to be able to contest objectives against entire mobs of Boys with a single Celestian and the auto-pass for Spirit of the Martyr. The staying power of faithful units, if anything, was what defined our Codex. Never mind that we couldn't take out units in CC, but god could we really tie shit up.

I used to argue against Sisters being called Guardsmen in power armour. I guess I won't have to any more.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Well there may be wargear that buffs the Shield of Faith ability who knows. There is probably a vehicle upgrade to do such a thing. 

We just need to pray that we get something like that when we are privy to the wargear section (pun intended).


----------



## TheKingElessar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Force Org question.
> 
> Gw usually has their force org organized like this: HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Special Characters


Uh...Special Characters aren't separate anymore. :wink:


----------



## Grogbart

TheKingElessar said:


> Uh...Special Characters aren't separate anymore. :wink:


I think, you refer to the Army List (points, options, etc.), while MCC referred to the so called Bestiary (fluff, rules, etc.).


----------



## TheKingElessar

Grogbart said:


> I think, you refer to the Army List (points, options, etc.), while MCC referred to the so called Bestiary (fluff, rules, etc.).


Maybe, from 'Force Org question' I assumed otherwise, but even so - in my experience the Bestiary is rather haphazardly laid out, seemingly at random.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> I think, you refer to the Army List (points, options, etc.), while MCC referred to the so called Bestiary (fluff, rules, etc.).


You are both correct actually.

What I'm comparing the WD to is the army list thing with all the points costs.

Dark Eldar:
SC, HQ, Elite, Troops, Fast Attack, Dedicated Transports, Heavy Support
Grey Knights:
SC, HQ, Elite, Troops, Dedicated Transports, Fast Attack, Heavy Support
Imperial Guard:
SC and HQ mixed, Elite, Troops, Dedicated Transports, Fast Attack, Heavy Support
Tyranids:
SC and HQ mixed, Elite, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy Support

So if we take this into consideration when looking at the WD we can see a pattern.

Canoness, command squad, Ecclesiarchy and Battle Conclaves.

Sisters Repentia, Penitent Engines

Battle Sisters, Celestian Squads

Dominion Squads, Seraphim Squads

Retributor Squads, Exorcists

Rhino, Immolators

Special Characters


To me it is pretty obvious they have grouped up units from the same force org slot. There was also the rumour that there wouldn't be much more than 2 units per slot.

Maybe Celestians are our new Assault troops? Their stats does seem to indicate this. Question is if they can be given jump packs and another CCW.


----------



## TheKingElessar

But it isn't like that - Special Characters don't belong to a different FoC slot, and it irritates me (still <3 you, ofc MCC) when people act like they aren't a 'normal' part of the army.

Especially since people always ignore the Emperor's Champion in their irrational distaste for Unique Independent Characters.


----------



## Numero-Uno

With the seperation of the GK and now what looks like the SoB, does that mean Games-Workshop are calling these White Dwarf rules the Sisters of Battle Codex and dropping the "Witch Hunters" name?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Most likely


----------



## Creon

Fully expected. Witch Hunters will be gone, I am fully confident.


----------



## vetsgtnamaan

Not too sure what to make of this. I am wondering why they would put something obviously written without playing testing and lacking in seeming any concept of Game design. They would have been better served just staying the course and continue ignoring that section of their product line. Faith is what attracted me to the Army in the first place so changes to the core aspect of the army will of course affect my desire to play it. We do not have point causes though to be honest if it turns out that this is a pile of garbage update I will just ignore it and continue to play with the older Witch Hunters codex. The tournament scene in my area has died so more casual events like a 2nd edition campaign are flourishing. I have may not have bought anything from GW in a long time but it does not mean I have given up playing it. It will be the same with this new Codex.


----------



## Grogbart

Just finished the second version of my SoB Fandex, but I can't decide whether I should bother posting it in the homebrew section, with the WDex half out now. What do you guys think? Anyone interested?


----------



## Katie Drake

Grogbart said:


> Just finished the second version of my SoB Fandex, but I can't decide whether I should bother posting it in the homebrew section, with the WDex half out now. What do you guys think? Anyone interested?


It can't hurt to post it up in the homebrews section, that's what it's there for after all.


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Seraphims are I3, they will still get there ass handed to them by space marines and won't even be able to use hit and run well. Celestians are the close combat sisters, it even says so in the codex, hell there act of faith is done in the close combat phase for close combat. So why give them an act of faith for close combat if there not a close combat troop? We don't view them as a close combat army. We just want our close combat troops to be decent in combat, we want to be able to kill a space marine tactical squad when we assault them. Do I want my close combat troops to be able to defeat the space marine close combat troops? No. I want my close combat troops to be able to defeat a devastator squad, not a vanguard or even assault squad, just a devastator squad but no we won't be able to even do that. Close combat is what 40k is all about. Have you even read the Codex, seraphims are the ones who are going to get the nice guns, not celestians. You say there going to hold the battlefield better then other troops? No there not, cause there going to lose combat, fail leadership and get run down.
> 
> You want to talk about playing this army strengths? Instead of it's weakness? Lets take a look at it's weakness.
> 
> Leadership, seeing how the canoness has stubborn that means book is now gone. Meaning we don't have a way to deal with leadership. What's that you say I can regroup using faith? But wait weren't a whole bunch of people, including the person who wrote this said, don't rely on faith? So I guess we can throw that idea out and not all units have a way to regroup.
> 
> Long range (both anti tank and anti infantry), all we have is the excorist and retributor squad for long range. Everything else is for 24 inch range. Immolator no longer has fire point and can't move 12 and still shot.
> 
> Limited Weapons, can only use flamers, bolters and meltas, no plasmas, no missile launchers, no lascannons or any other Imperial weapon. Just stuck with those 3 types of weapons which limits us on the battlefield.
> 
> Movement: We can only move 12 at most (expect seraphims if they run). Every 5th edition army can move faster then this. Space marines have bikes (and some have Storm Ravens), Guard have Valkyries and vendettas and some fast tanks to. Dark Eldar, do I even have to talk about them? Tyranids have the monsterous creature that comes out of the ground, they also have beasts which has an assault threat of 19 to 24.
> 
> No Psychic Defense.
> 
> And as you said, close combat.
> 
> So that's 6 weakness. So what is these army strength, shooting? Not really if you think about it. With divine guidance now gone, sisters of battle can't shot that well. It's not bad but it's not really something to get excitied about either. So this army has 6 weakness and no powerful strengths.


OK, let's take this one point at a time. 

You want your Celestians to be able to take out tactical marines or devastators. Under the old rules, a full strength squad could possibly, on a good day, take out a combat squad on the charge. Against a full 10-man squad, in my experience (and I've been playing Sisters seriously since 1997) the best they could do was bog them down for a few turns, burning Faith like there was no tomorrow, and wait for more units to arrive to help out. Stat-wise, they simply couldn't hack it. Shooting however was always the great equaliser. Equal BS, same weaponry, less points so more guns available. In a fistfight, they suffered horribly, even on the charge. Shooting, they did just great. You say they can't shoot well without Divine Guidance: I say they shoot just as well as any Marine armed with the same guns. 
Close Combat is not "what 40K is about". 40K is a skirmish game, in which two armies fight according to their best abilities. For some, that's shooting, for others it's close combat. Sisters excel at close to mid-range shooting. 
You also say Seraphim will get the 'good guns' - they've always just had boltpistols, hand flamers and inferno pistols (which were horribly expensive and so short range as to be almost useless). Celestians had a far bigger range to choose from, including Heavy weapons. They have more diversity, which means yes - they will hold the field better than shortranged pistol-wielders. If you are smart, they won't need to get into combat, and their leadership is the same as the rest of the army so if they will "fail leadership and get cut down" then so will every other unit in your army. 

You cite leadership as a weakness. If you take Superiors, it's 9 across the board, 10 for your Canoness. That's as good as marines, and better than many other armies. Marines and Nids are the only other armies with a guaranteed rallying rule - truth be told we've been spoilt with our AoF and Book. Now we're in the same place as most other armies. Not a weakness, just the way the rules work and the removal of an overpowered strength. 

Long range weaponry: If you play straight Sisters, there's never been any long range weaponry. It's part of the army's fluff and play-style. Yes, we can't take Inducted Missiles and Lascannons any more, but then including them made the army an allied force, not a Sisters army. If you've played the army as long as I have, that's something you learnt to deal with a long time ago. Yes, the Immolator no longer has a fire-point, but that's irrelevant as it was a charge-forwards tank, not something you sat back with and had a heavy weapon fire out of. And the Flamers are still a short-range weapon as you had to be in template range to fire it, so it wasn't a long range weapon either. 

"Limited Weapons" - again, it's the fluff about the Holy Trinity. Always been that way. You want an army that uses other weapons? Play Guard. It's limiting, but you learn to work within that limitation. 'Limitation' isn't the same as 'weakness'. 

Movement: Sisters are just as fast as the majority of Marines. You want manouverability? Take Rhinos. Take Seraphim. You can't compare what is effectively a foot-slogging gun-army with superfast combat armies like the DE and Nids, and expect that arguement to be taken seriously. Sisters aren't supposed to be fast. Yes, others move faster than us. _They're supposed to_. And I do believe that the word 'Fleet' has been introduced to our repetoire now, so we do have troops that move quickly...

No Psychic defense: And? I've been playing them for years, and never once used that save. And I wouldn't be surprised if the wargear section is now brimming with anti-psyker gear...

Close Combat: Yes, Sisters mostly suck at close combat. The way I found to deal with this? Lots of girls. Lots. And positioned so if one unit gets charged, several more can charge in to help next turn. Or better still, position the Wall Of Bolterfire so anyone wanting to charge you has to face the huge amount of firepower a Sisters army can muster before hitting home. And with this update, there are actually more ways of dealing with the CC suckiness than before. Like a single Penitent Engine being able to hold up a unit of powerfistless Marines indefinately due to the armour buff, til more units can get in there to help out. 

One thing I learnt whilst playing Tyranids - when using your army, no unit should be looked at in isolation. Look at how they hold together as a force, and complement each other. Look at how they will work together on the battlefield. Yes, a couple of units have been slightly nerfed. But the buffs on others mean they will work better than ever together. Immolators can't go 12" and fire? Fine, but fill a rhino with 4 Heavy Flamer Retributors (as the fluff implies are returning), and it's better...


----------



## Shandathe

Things I CAN say älready without the other half of the Codex

"This official Codex for the Sisters of Battle, written by Robin Cruddace and Mat Ward" - this made me go 'Well, win or fail, it's going to do one of them to an *extreme*'. 

*Fluff*: I could swear I've read this history before... two or three times... with barely a word being changed. 

---

*Events*: 

San Leor Massacre: Loss, but avenged with overwhelming numbers (seriously, consider the number of actual enemy SM actually involved... against 9 Orders Militant). 

War for Piety: Draw, but claimed as a victory. Actual problem solved by the Grey Knights instead.

Defence of Dimmamar: Might be a victory, but most likely a loss. That's what always happens when you think you score a win over the Eldar.

Slaughter of Sanctuary 101: Loss.

Promethean War: Loss. Bailed out by the Emperor tossing in a pokeball containing St. Celestine - who is now officially more of an Unliving Saint. 

Martyrdom of Praxedes: Loss, but objective achieved. And at least she's properly dead. Note loss of Saint status - at the very least she didn't live to see it.

---

*Army Special Rules*:

All _Acts_ nerfed to hell. Loss of (especially) old-style Spirit of the Martyr and Divine Guidance is going to vastly change the way the army behaves. You'll likely have more Acts, but they're far less reliable (with Sister Superior alive, 50%), nor as likely to change the game.

_Shield of Faith_: Yay armywide invulnerable save. No protection from Psykers at all, but it might be in the Armoury somewhere... Almost has to be.

---

*Units*:

_*Canoness*_ gained +1 to her WS, but given that she's still S3 and T3 I don't really see how she's supposed to USE it. The Passion further improves her (and her unit's) chances to hit... but seriously, HITTING wasn't ever the problem before. Wounding and Surviving were. 

Mind you, piling on hits will get you wounds eventually. Still, a Priest is a more reliable way to get a similar effect when charging... Which makes one wonder, can you get more than one re-roll using both?

*Ecclesiarchy Priest*: They're not counterproductive anymore. That's all I really wanted in one.

_*Repentia and Penitent Engines*_ are remarkably unchanged, though the additional Heavy Flamer is nice. Definitely need second part to see what's happening here in terms of viability.

_*Battle Sisters*_: Likely to suffer most in performance overall. Their Act of Faith is... Plain meh, but at least it's a decent way to use leftover faith points.

*Celestians*: Mixed feelings. Additional attack and Act of Faith seem to suggest CC role (much like Holy Hatred did before) but I still don't think they can truly pull it off. 

_*Seraphim and Dominions*_: These looks decidedly tasty. Something I'm sure we'll see in their point costs - but seriously, Seraphim already were pretty expensive anyway. Init nerf for Seraphim is painful, can hopefully be fixed with wargear.

*Retributors*: Added Heavy Flamer option makes me smile widely. Act especially nice for said Flamers and the old reliable HB. Still potentially worth a shot for MM at range, too.

_*All vehicles*_: Having the 6+ Invulnerable save on all vehicles might prove interesting. 

*Rhinos*: Two fire points. Finally.

*Immolator*: I swear, Canoness, I left the Immolator _right here_. I've no idea where this Razorback came from! 

*Kyrinov and Uriah*: Well, they're the SCs I wanted, but welcome back anyway. Kyrinov looks kinda lame (Fearless, bah). Uriah looks like he'll fit right in, as long as he's cheap - the Banner is decent if you know CC isn't avoidable, and Protector of the Faith may give you an FP or two more occasionally (or LESS).

*St. Celestine*: Holy anti-infantry, Batman... she can't carve through Rhinos anymore, but daaaaamn. Heavy stat upgrades all around. Loss of Hit and Run is unfortunate, but okay. Weapon upgrade is very nice - Ardent Blade now not only always wounds on 4+, but it went from Flamer to Heavy Flamer. Krak grenades as best anti-vehicle... annoying, but I've got others to take up the slack there.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Noticed the lack of weapon description rules for the Penitent Engine. If it suffers 2 weapon destroyed does it still have D6 attacks? With 1 weapon destroyed it loses the +1 in the profile but even with both arms destroyed will it still do D6 S5 non power weapon attacks?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Noticed the lack of weapon description rules for the Penitent Engine. If it suffers 2 weapon destroyed does it still have D6 attacks? With 1 weapon destroyed it loses the +1 in the profile but even with both arms destroyed will it still do D6 S5 non power weapon attacks?


It doesn't need to describe the rules, because they're standard across all models. If it loses the second combat weapon, its attacks are a standard D6. If it loses the second one too, it has no special close combat weapon so it reverts to its normal strength and no longer ignores armor, as you said.


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> OK, let's take this one point at a time.
> 
> You want your Celestians to be able to take out tactical marines or devastators. Under the old rules, a full strength squad could possibly, on a good day, take out a combat squad on the charge. Against a full 10-man squad, in my experience (and I've been playing Sisters seriously since 1997) the best they could do was bog them down for a few turns, burning Faith like there was no tomorrow, and wait for more units to arrive to help out. Stat-wise, they simply couldn't hack it. Shooting however was always the great equaliser. Equal BS, same weaponry, less points so more guns available. In a fistfight, they suffered horribly, even on the charge. Shooting, they did just great. You say they can't shoot well without Divine Guidance: I say they shoot just as well as any Marine armed with the same guns.
> Close Combat is not "what 40K is about". 40K is a skirmish game, in which two armies fight according to their best abilities. For some, that's shooting, for others it's close combat. Sisters excel at close to mid-range shooting.
> You also say Seraphim will get the 'good guns' - they've always just had boltpistols, hand flamers and inferno pistols (which were horribly expensive and so short range as to be almost useless). Celestians had a far bigger range to choose from, including Heavy weapons. They have more diversity, which means yes - they will hold the field better than shortranged pistol-wielders. If you are smart, they won't need to get into combat, and their leadership is the same as the rest of the army so if they will "fail leadership and get cut down" then so will every other unit in your army.
> 
> You cite leadership as a weakness. If you take Superiors, it's 9 across the board, 10 for your Canoness. That's as good as marines, and better than many other armies. Marines and Nids are the only other armies with a guaranteed rallying rule - truth be told we've been spoilt with our AoF and Book. Now we're in the same place as most other armies. Not a weakness, just the way the rules work and the removal of an overpowered strength.
> 
> Long range weaponry: If you play straight Sisters, there's never been any long range weaponry. It's part of the army's fluff and play-style. Yes, we can't take Inducted Missiles and Lascannons any more, but then including them made the army an allied force, not a Sisters army. If you've played the army as long as I have, that's something you learnt to deal with a long time ago. Yes, the Immolator no longer has a fire-point, but that's irrelevant as it was a charge-forwards tank, not something you sat back with and had a heavy weapon fire out of. And the Flamers are still a short-range weapon as you had to be in template range to fire it, so it wasn't a long range weapon either.
> 
> "Limited Weapons" - again, it's the fluff about the Holy Trinity. Always been that way. You want an army that uses other weapons? Play Guard. It's limiting, but you learn to work within that limitation. 'Limitation' isn't the same as 'weakness'.
> 
> Movement: Sisters are just as fast as the majority of Marines. You want manouverability? Take Rhinos. Take Seraphim. You can't compare what is effectively a foot-slogging gun-army with superfast combat armies like the DE and Nids, and expect that arguement to be taken seriously. Sisters aren't supposed to be fast. Yes, others move faster than us. _They're supposed to_. And I do believe that the word 'Fleet' has been introduced to our repetoire now, so we do have troops that move quickly...
> 
> No Psychic defense: And? I've been playing them for years, and never once used that save. And I wouldn't be surprised if the wargear section is now brimming with anti-psyker gear...
> 
> Close Combat: Yes, Sisters mostly suck at close combat. The way I found to deal with this? Lots of girls. Lots. And positioned so if one unit gets charged, several more can charge in to help next turn. Or better still, position the Wall Of Bolterfire so anyone wanting to charge you has to face the huge amount of firepower a Sisters army can muster before hitting home. And with this update, there are actually more ways of dealing with the CC suckiness than before. Like a single Penitent Engine being able to hold up a unit of powerfistless Marines indefinately due to the armour buff, til more units can get in there to help out.
> 
> One thing I learnt whilst playing Tyranids - when using your army, no unit should be looked at in isolation. Look at how they hold together as a force, and complement each other. Look at how they will work together on the battlefield. Yes, a couple of units have been slightly nerfed. But the buffs on others mean they will work better than ever together. Immolators can't go 12" and fire? Fine, but fill a rhino with 4 Heavy Flamer Retributors (as the fluff implies are returning), and it's better...


Leadership 9 is utter crap without something to back it up like stubborn. It utter shit compared to marines. You want to know why its utter shit compared to marines. Simply they have the special rule called "They shall know no fear." That makes them immune to sweep advance and allows them to auto regroup even if they are below half. Guard have orders and commissars (which is stubborn with a reroll). Ork have mob rule and bosspole, Nids have synapse. Now you may say what about dark eldar? Well dark eldar has two weakness, they can't take punishment and there leadership. For every 1 weakness they have it is made up with 2 strengths, there fast, there good in close combat, there good at shooting and they have pain tokens (which can negate there weakness).

You say we shouldn't get in close combat. Well guess what, its a short range shooting army. You know what that means we will get in close combat. Why cause we have to get close to the enemy to shot them or they have to get close to us to shot them, which means we will get in close combat. Before we could deal with by using divine guidance and getting two squads to shot at one squad but we would still get in close combat. If your a short range shooting army you will get in close combat. There is no denying it.

Your using what you learn from nids? Everyone agrees that army sucks. It is the worst 5th edition codex out there. Using retributors with heavy flamers in a rhino? Congrulations you just gave up using retributors with heavy bolters and rending for anti thank or a slot for an Exorcist tank which is need for long range anti tank.

Sisters may be as fast as the majority of marines but they have nothing that allows them to move faster. All marine armies (and every other army out there), has a way of going faster then 12. This may be bikes turbo boosting or having some other fast vehicle moving over 12 (like land speeders). Guards have lots of ways to go over 12. In the end rhino moving 12 isn't enough mobility. In the end they are restricted to 12, while other armies easily have other ways of going faster. Also tell me when did repentia become troops? In the end Repentia are going to be put in transports or else they will get shot and die.

Psychic defense wasn't big two years ago but it is now. Psychic powers are getting better and better and defense is now required. Look at the space wolves, blood angels and Grey Knights. As new Codexes come out psychic defense will be needed. As for me I have used that save often. It really help verse lash of submission. Also we did lose access to our psychic hood. I wouldn't have mind that if we still kept our shield of faith. Also I don't think we will be getting any wargear that deal with pskyers thanks to the grey knights who have them all now. If your expecting sisters to get some kind of anti pskyer wargear you are going to be disappointed. Our wargear will simply be bare bones.

The rest of your argument is "sisters are suppose to be like that" or "that's part of the sister fluff." I can understand that for like 1 or 2 weakness if it is made up by many other strengths but the fact is they have to many weakness. When you have limited weapons, little long range anti tank, poor leadership, crap close combat, no psychic defense, your army will fall apart an the excuse that's there fluff just doesn't cut. Cause right now Fluff be damned, I want an army that is fun to play. Everyone complains about matt ward, at least he writes rules that are fun to play with, yes his fluff sucks but he writes codexes that are fun to play with. Does this codex look like its fun to play with or will perform well? No. This is simply marine lite now.

Lets look at 5th edition army strengths and weakness:

Sisters Strengths:
Maybe close range shooting
Can Field lots of models

Sisters Weakness:
Leadership
Close Combat
Long Range Weapons
Stuck with 3 types of range weapons
No special rules that you can rely on


Space Marines Strengths:
Jack of All Trades
They shall know no fear
Combat Tactics

Weakness:
Cost lots of points


Imperial Guard Strenghts:
Excellent Tanks
Lots of Cheap Models
Good Morale (due to commissar and orders)
Orders

Weakness:
Suck in close combat


Dark Eldar Strengths:
Fast
Poison weapons
Good in close combat
Pain Tokens
Can Field lots of models

Weakness:
Fragile
Leadership (aside from pain tokens they have no ways of dealing with leadership)


Tyranids (don't know them that well) Strengths:
Lots of models
Good in Close combat
Lots of Monstrous creatures

Weakness:
Lacks long range anti tank
(correct me if I am wrong by Tyranids)

I'm not going to include space marine variants cause it would be very similar to space marines but with a few changes here and there. As you can see every army has more strengths then weakness expect for sisters of battle. That's my problem they have to many weakness and not enough strengths to make up for it.


----------



## SGMAlice

No. Just No. I'm afraid i'm going to have to throw my lot in with the whiners here, without the whining. Nothing short of a miracle is going to be able to save them now.
To much has been changed for the worse.

I'm sticking with the current Codex.

SGMAlice


----------



## Necrosis

I think you need to change your signature SGMAlice.


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## SGMAlice

Yeah, to something ranting at GW for screwing us over PFFT!!

FU GW!

SGMAlice


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## TheKingElessar

Nids don't only suffer for a-t at range. *Cue some moron saying that 4 S6 Attacks in CC is good...*

You also didn't mention the multiple colours of marines, which all play differently - that's what justifies them having different books. :wink:

Ld9 isn't TOO bad, at least outside of CC, which we ALL (should) know T3 models will always suck at. In addition, Troop Sisters get that funky regroup - unreliable, but since the only reason I see to take the other squads is because you already have 6 Troops choices, you will find it used a fair bit.

Beyond that, how can I argue?

This Sisters book looks like trash, it needs a LOT to change, or points to be stupid low. Like, crazy nonsense lol, 8 points a Sister or something. (And, by the way guys - 11 points for a Sister in the CURRENT book wasn't overcosted at all. Seraphim, yes, but not Battle Sisters.)


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## MadCowCrazy

Has anyone received their WD yet? I'd like to know what's on the last page, if anyone knows where a picture can be seen please send me a pm.
If not please write down what's on the last page about what will be coming next month.


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## Sworn Radical

*And in next months White Dwarf:* Games Workshop proudly announces their new customer tracking system which will totally make sure that a host of friendly employees will come to visit you in the privacy of your own home to confiscate all old (_read: good or at least better_) books, codices and all of your miniatures which aren't current range (or Whinecast).


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## Zion

I read a few 40K blogs (to include some I don't agree with, but I read them to try and see somethings from another point of view). And as of today I get to say for the first time that I agree with Stelek regarding the Sisters of Battle (Article here).

Sisters of Battle: bring the community together through their fail. That's something I guess.


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## Shandathe

The thing is the true failure is yet to come.

You see, I'm expecting the point costs for Sister units to go down significantly (though likely not by enough). It's the only way this mess can be in any way competitive.

*HOWEVER.* That means you need to field more models, and those *still* aren't available in anything but blisters... So the monetary cost for playing Sisters (which was *already* the highest around) is going to go UP.

Screw you, GW. Just... screw you.


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## Creon

I hate to go against the grain of the hate and discontent, but I'm looking forward to playing these rules. Yes, the I:3 is irritating, and the "no more 3++" very frustrating. Acts of faith are entirely different. But, all vehicles get a 6++ save. Interesting. I hope that with play they ranting will reduce, as perhaps we see why choices were made. But then again I'm an incurable optimist.


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## Shandathe

Assuming point costs come down enough that this mess becomes playable, you're apparently also a very rich optimist


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## MadCowCrazy

Ohhh, I get it now... The new design philosophy behind the new Faith system. GWs design is to get you to pray for success as that's what you will be doing when attempting them! GENIUS!


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## SGMAlice

GW now think they are a Deity.
With their pompous arrogance it wouldn't suprise me.

SGMAlice


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## Creon

I have been anticipating this for some time, actually. 

I have 40 Sisters already painted and available, plus 15 "working on". Full squad of Celestians, 2 full squads of retributors, 10 dominions, a Penitent Engine and 2 Exorcists. I have four Canoness', one with Stake Crossbow, Full Death Cult and Crusaders, and Eight Repentia w/command. This should be sufficient to get me to 1850 if points come down significantly. So, It's more I'm standing on a large amount of current stock. I was at like 2500 before.


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## vetsgtnamaan

If nothing else the impending craptacular new codex has made me appreciate the old list so much more


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## Inq_Eljer

Just curiously asking a question here...what could be contained in the Beastiary that would help compensate for what I percieve to be almost a fatal nerfing?

- Sarrissa: Adds +1A - can be taken by any sister with a bolter for 1 pt?

- Army wide acts of faith not disclosed in part 1?

- Priests can attach to any Faithful unit as an upgrade?

- Penitent Engines can squadron?

- Exorcists - I'm afraid they're nerfed too and the we haven't seen the extent of that yet.

Serious question though, what revisions to points and unit upgrade options can off-set what I think we all know to be a fairly severe / drastic set of changes?


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## Necrosis

Inq_Eljer said:


> Just curiously asking a question here...what could be contained in the Beastiary that would help compensate for what I percieve to be almost a fatal nerfing?
> 
> - Sarrissa: Adds +1A - can be taken by any sister with a bolter for 1 pt?
> 
> - Army wide acts of faith not disclosed in part 1?
> 
> - Priests can attach to any Faithful unit as an upgrade?
> 
> - Penitent Engines can squadron?
> 
> - Exorcists - I'm afraid they're nerfed too and the we haven't seen the extent of that yet.
> 
> Serious question though, what revisions to points and unit upgrade options can off-set what I think we all know to be a fairly severe / drastic set of changes?


I rather see Sarrissa do reroll failed to wound. I would also like to see a banner that Celestians can take that gives them Furious charge.


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## Azezel

Things we'd need to see in the next part of the 'dex in order to save this thing from being a colossal waste of paper:

Off the top of my head.

*Tinfoil Hat of Psyker ignoring*: Any model or unit equipped with this item is impervious to Psychic powers & Force Weapons.

This is huge. We _have no psychic defence_! None at all! The quintessential anti-psyker armmy is completely defenceless against warpcraft.

*Blessed Ammunition*: Bolt Weapons loaded with Blessed Ammunition have the Rending USR.

*Holy Promethium*: Flame Weapons loaded with Holy Promethium have the Rending USR.

*Sanctified Armour*: Models equipped with Sanctified Armour have an Invulnerable Save equal to the Armour's normal Armour Save.

*Book of St. Lucius*: If you don't know what this does, hand over your army.

I think the above would solve most problems, provided they are cheap enough.

There are some things it'd be nice to have...

*Artificier Armour*
*Combi-Weapon*
*Power-Sarissa*
*Codex of St. Cruddace*


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## andrewm9

Inq_Eljer said:


> Just curiously asking a question here...what could be contained in the Beastiary that would help compensate for what I percieve to be almost a fatal nerfing?
> 
> - Sarrissa: Adds +1A - can be taken by any sister with a bolter for 1 pt?
> 
> - Army wide acts of faith not disclosed in part 1?
> 
> - Priests can attach to any Faithful unit as an upgrade?
> 
> - Penitent Engines can squadron?
> 
> - Exorcists - I'm afraid they're nerfed too and the we haven't seen the extent of that yet.
> 
> Serious question though, what revisions to points and unit upgrade options can off-set what I think we all know to be a fairly severe / drastic set of changes?


In order

1) Maybe but I woudl prefer +1 STR in clsoe combat. That would sarissas worth taking for everyone along as they weren't too expensive.
2) doubtful as these should have been included in the army special rules
3) probably true, but their buff we be of limited utility since most units will be unable to assualt much since the army relies on rapid fire to win the day against infantry
4) this is already true so I'd bet that it still is.
5) Lets hope not, but I bet they become AP3 so that we have no chance of stopping AV 14 tanks before the game ends.

OK that last part was overly cynical. :biggrin: If I were changing it I would make it heavy 4 STR 8 AP 1 or ordnance barrage STR 6 AP 3 large blast with the option to do both but based on the flavor text its still probably a d6 shots still.

Well perhaps if Simulacrum IMperialis gave a further +1 to faith attempt rolls they'd get a bit more reliable. I was kind fo hoping the preacher woudl do so as well but they dont' count as one fo the characters listed.I'm betting Laud Hailers add +1 to Leadership rolls within 6". I seriously doubt they add stubborn. I saw an odd reference to some kind of holy relic in the command sqaud listing. That coudl have some CC boosting potential or add some other act of faith or perhaps even give a free act each turn.

Please note I am just speculating on these last parts and they have no basis in actual fact other than what I read from the given deascriptions. I also expect some piece of wargear to hand out eternal warrior to the Canoness and potentially the Confessor as they potential to be insta-gibbed in CC to big for a large investment of points.


----------



## Necrosis

The reason the Excorists missile is S8 AP1, is cause its a melta missile and thus still falls in the holy trinity (bolter, melta, flamers).


----------



## andrewm9

Necrosis said:


> The reason the Excorists missile is S8 AP1, is cause its a melta missile and thus still falls in the holy trinity (bolter, melta, flamers).


Actually now the new fluff lists them as explosive and armor piercing. 

BTW if any vehicle kit needed repalcing this is one of them with that ill fitting pipe organ on the back. It atkes so much work to make thme fit, but the end result is always worth it as they look gorgeous.


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## WallWeasels

Necrosis said:


> The reason the Excorists missile is S8 AP1, is cause its a melta missile and thus still falls in the holy trinity (bolter, melta, flamers).


That or, you know, the holy trinity is pretty open to discussion. Combi-Plasmas are not covered by the holy trinity (yeah they are bolters, but they are also plasmas) and yet appear as options for sisters. AP1 doesn't define it as melta, the exorcist is allowed because its a giant mobile relic. 
Overall, "son I am disappoint" utlimately shows my feelings towards these rules so far. As I have told poeple before on this topic...even if the points somehow turn out amazing and we end up the most OP force in the universe...I don't like how we got there. Really low point sisters? So we've been demoted to meat-grinder troops? What happened to sisters being the shining beacon of mankinds hope? The elite troop of faithful warriors who protect the imperium using the emperors most holy tools (power armor + trinity)?

Seems to me the only way points will these crap rules will be to make us into what IG are meant to be: an army based around the Zapp Brannigan Kill-Bot theory. I mean the enemy HAS to reach a certain amount of kills before it self-destructs right?

AndrewM9: I actually was writing a fandex ages ago (I stopped because I had huge writters block :/) that had celestians have a specialized bolter called a "sarissa pattern bolter" that counted as a CCW in addition to being a bolter...and all sisters had bolt pistols so you bolter + ccw + pistol all into one  

Most likely Simulacrum Imperialis will most won't be a reroll or a flat +1. Seraphim already get a reroll rule and its not called that and I doubt GW would make two of the same rules in the same codex and not call it the samething. I say no to +1 because with a casuality + IC + Superior + Simulacrum you would pass on a roll of a 1. Although the faith doesnt have a "1 is a fail" option that is usually how GW does these things. 

Most likely the banners will give +1 faith or allow a certain amount of faith per turn to be carried over to the next turn if it isn't used.

Also no one really seems to mention in this thread that Acts can't be used in the opponents turn?  It makes unit abilities like celestians +1str and repentias "attack back" ability can't be used unless we assault :/

edit: also first post, hi everyone :x signed up finally to actually add in my thoughts


----------



## Creon

It's a placeholder for the 6th edition codex, so the Crap, which I fail to see yet, is only going to stink for a few months. And who can say what imagifiers do. I think we can't judge until all information is in.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just saw this :


Kroothawk said:


> Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):
> 
> The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.


So maybe Ward wrote the unit stats and special rules and Cruddace did the wargear?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just saw this :
> 
> 
> So maybe Ward wrote the unit stats and special rules and Cruddace did the wargear?


If anything, Cruddace did the rules and Ward did the fluff and other non-gaming related stuff. This does not, in any way, shape or form, feel like something that Ward would write. People hate on him all the time, but he's quite good at making books a lot of fun to play with a lot of options, which this book will not have (due in part to not being a full book).


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just saw this :
> So maybe Ward wrote the unit stats and special rules and Cruddace did the wargear?


Doubt they'd do such a split on how they wrote it...but we can all have for a "ridiculous cruddace" set of wargear :laugh:



Creon said:


> It's a placeholder for the 6th edition codex, so the Crap, which I fail to see yet, is only going to stink for a few months. And who can say what imagifiers do. I think we can't judge until all information is in.


Well saying its a "placeholder" is hardly an excuse for a bad ruleset. Do we really have valid reason to think we'll be getting a replacement soon enough? Most of the placeholder WD codexs tend to be to patchfix some problem. Like chaos warriors was because the soon to come daemons book would kind of invalidate the need for their mixed mortal+demon book. 
So this is to just "fix" allies by removing it? Well they did that by releasing the PDF online and literally removing it. So *shrugs*


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Actually the rumours now say that the Sisters of Battle proper codex with be one of the first after 6E is released. This puts the codex around November next year.


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Leadership 9 is utter crap without something to back it up like stubborn. It utter shit compared to marines. You want to know why its utter shit compared to marines. Simply they have the special rule called "They shall know no fear." That makes them immune to sweep advance and allows them to auto regroup even if they are below half. Guard have orders and commissars (which is stubborn with a reroll). Ork have mob rule and bosspole, Nids have synapse. Now you may say what about dark eldar?  Well dark eldar has two weakness, they can't take punishment and there leadership. For every 1 weakness they have it is made up with 2 strengths, there fast, there good in close combat, there good at shooting and they have pain tokens (which can negate there weakness).
> 
> You say we shouldn't get in close combat. Well guess what, its a short range shooting army. You know what that means we will get in close combat. Why cause we have to get close to the enemy to shot them or they have to get close to us to shot them, which means we will get in close combat. Before we could deal with by using divine guidance and getting two squads to shot at one squad but we would still get in close combat. If your a short range shooting army you will get in close combat. There is no denying it.
> 
> Your using what you learn from nids? Everyone agrees that army sucks. It is the worst 5th edition codex out there. Using retributors with heavy flamers in a rhino? Congrulations you just gave up using retributors with heavy bolters and rending for anti thank or a slot for an Exorcist tank which is need for long range anti tank.
> 
> Sisters may be as fast as the majority of marines but they have nothing that allows them to move faster. All marine armies (and every other army out there), has a way of going faster then 12. This may be bikes turbo boosting or having some other fast vehicle moving over 12 (like land speeders). Guards have lots of ways to go over 12. In the end rhino moving 12 isn't enough mobility. In the end they are restricted to 12, while other armies easily have other ways of going faster. Also tell me when did repentia become troops? In the end Repentia are going to be put in transports or else they will get shot and die.
> 
> Psychic defense wasn't big two years ago but it is now. Psychic powers are getting better and better and defense is now required. Look at the space wolves, blood angels and Grey Knights. As new Codexes come out psychic defense will be needed. As for me I have used that save often. It really help verse lash of submission. Also we did lose access to our psychic hood. I wouldn't have mind that if we still kept our shield of faith. Also I don't think we will be getting any wargear that deal with pskyers thanks to the grey knights who have them all now. If your expecting sisters to get some kind of anti pskyer wargear you are going to be disappointed. Our wargear will simply be bare bones.
> 
> The rest of your argument is "sisters are suppose to be like that" or "that's part of the sister fluff." I can understand that for like 1 or 2 weakness if it is made up by many other strengths but the fact is they have to many weakness. When you have limited weapons, little long range anti tank, poor leadership, crap close combat, no psychic defense, your army will fall apart an the excuse that's there fluff just doesn't cut. Cause right now Fluff be damned, I want an army that is fun to play. Everyone complains about matt ward, at least he writes rules that are fun to play with, yes his fluff sucks but he writes codexes that are fun to play with. Does this codex look like its fun to play with or will perform well? No. This is simply marine lite now.
> 
> Lets look at 5th edition army strengths and weakness:
> 
> Sisters Strengths:
> Maybe close range shooting
> Can Field lots of models
> 
> Sisters Weakness:
> Leadership
> Close Combat
> Long Range Weapons
> Stuck with 3 types of range weapons
> No special rules that you can rely on
> 
> 
> Space Marines Strengths:
> Jack of All Trades
> They shall know no fear
> Combat Tactics
> 
> Weakness:
> Cost lots of points
> 
> 
> Imperial Guard Strenghts:
> Excellent Tanks
> Lots of Cheap Models
> Good Morale (due to commissar and orders)
> Orders
> 
> Weakness:
> Suck in close combat
> 
> 
> Dark Eldar Strengths:
> Fast
> Poison weapons
> Good in close combat
> Pain Tokens
> Can Field lots of models
> 
> Weakness:
> Fragile
> Leadership (aside from pain tokens they have no ways of dealing with leadership)
> 
> 
> Tyranids (don't know them that well) Strengths:
> Lots of models
> Good in Close combat
> Lots of Monstrous creatures
> 
> Weakness:
> Lacks long range anti tank
> (correct me if I am wrong by Tyranids)
> 
> I'm not going to include space marine variants cause it would be very similar to space marines but with a few changes here and there. As you can see every army has more strengths then weakness expect for sisters of battle. That's my problem they have to many weakness and not enough strengths to make up for it.


Just out of curiosity - as almost all the weaknesses you cite were there before this update, why do you play an army you obviously think is really quite fatally flawed and rubbish? 

Leadership 9 is one point below the maximum you can get. I'd hardly call that "utter crap". Try playing an army with Ld7 almost across the board some time, or Ld 5 like much of a Nid army ends up being when an experienced opponent takes out all your synapse in turn 2. Then you'll understand utter crap Ld values :wink:

To be honest, I really can't see what all the bitching is about. I've played Sisters for a very long time. As someone who regularly forgot that Acts were even an option in the middle of a game, and who relied on the troops themselves rather than their funky extras _ and still had fun and regularly won games_, I'm not that upset by what I've seen so far with this. I'm willing to wait and see what the Wargear section and prices bring. Yes, I'll mourn the loss of the Book of St Lucius, but I'll live. 

Seriously people, quit bitching about the changes and have some fun thinking up ways to make them work. So you can't do things the way you could before: well, adapt. It's what humans do best. 

And it's not like you can't just keep using the old Codex anyway if you so choose. Even in Tournaments, at least until September. They can't make you use a list that doesn't have costs...


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> Actually the rumours now say that the Sisters of Battle proper codex with be one of the first after 6E is released. This puts the codex around November next year.


Worse off that puts us with this book for another year+ ;/ Where was this?  Last I heard was a "maybe" to start of 2012


----------



## MadCowCrazy

WallWeasels said:


> Worse off that puts us with this book for another year+ ;/ Where was this?  Last I heard was a "maybe" to start of 2012


In those Chaos Legion rumours.

Basically rumour says that Chaos Legions will be one of the first armies next year and Black Templars to follow as the starter set armies for 6E is said to be Chaos Legions and Black Templars.

It does make sense as this would have both armies updated for 6E. It was also said that Tau would be after Black Templars and this would put Sisters after Tau which would put Sisters in the November slot next year or around there.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> In those Chaos Legion rumours.
> 
> Basically rumour says that Chaos Legions will be one of the first armies next year and Black Templars to follow as the starter set armies for 6E is said to be Chaos Legions and Black Templars.
> 
> It does make sense as this would have both armies updated for 6E. It was also said that Tau would be after Black Templars and this would put Sisters after Tau which would put Sisters in the November slot next year or around there.


Yeah I remember as much. Sad to see really although Tau rightly deserve a nice update. I expect Black Templars will have right done redonkulous rules involving prayer and hating witches that'll put us to shame


----------



## Grogbart

WallWeasels said:


> So this is to just "fix" allies by removing it? Well they did that by releasing the PDF online and literally removing it. So *shrugs*


And it took them two attempts to do it! (at least in the German version they accidentally missed one box next to the Inquisitor Lord, I assume elsewhere it was the same) Which just shows an apparent lack of care.

For this WDex, many reasons have been rumored, WD buff, Necron delay, no 3rd Ed Dexes left before 6th Ed, fully cram Inquisition into GK...

What I am wondering about is, why they didn't seem to bother, back with the PDFs, to even include some of the most obvious issues (e.g. Rhino point costs).
But now, instead of just leaving the Sister stuff (apart from apparent issues) and removing the Inquisition stuff, they actually went quite deep with changing stats and going beyond 'just streamlining' rules. Which makes me doubt this WDex is just a short-lived placeholder.

It might be GW didn't dare to leave the Sisters unchanged again after the PDFs and desperately forced these changes into them?

Maybe they really want to field-test something?

Or somehow the current Faith System wouldn't have worked or fitted with the upcoming 6th Ed? (Or worst for GW, it would have worked brilliantly for the Sisters!)

PS: Will we ever see a Codex for the Sisters of Battle, where the Sister-Characters outnumber the Non-Sister-Characters?


----------



## WallWeasels

Grogbart said:


> And it took them two attempts to do it! (at least in the German version they accidentally missed one box next to the Inquisitor Lord, I assume elsewhere it was the same) Which just shows an apparent lack of care.
> 
> For this WDex, many reasons have been rumored, WD buff, Necron delay, no 3rd Ed Dexes left before 6th Ed, fully cram Inquisition into GK...
> 
> What I am wondering about is, why they didn't seem to bother, back with the PDFs, to even include some of the most obvious issues (e.g. Rhino point costs).
> But now, instead of just leaving the Sister stuff (apart from apparent issues) and removing the Inquisition stuff, they actually went quite deep with changing stats and going beyond 'just streamlining' rules. Which makes me doubt this WDex is just a short-lived placeholder.
> 
> It might be GW didn't dare to leave the Sisters unchanged again after the PDFs and desperately forced these changes into them?
> 
> Maybe they really want to field-test something?
> 
> Or somehow the current Faith System wouldn't have worked or fitted with the upcoming 6th Ed? (Or worst for GW, it would have worked brilliantly for the Sisters!)
> 
> PS: Will we ever see a Codex for the Sisters of Battle, where the Sister-Characters outnumber the Non-Sister-Characters?


Personally when Blood Angels came out I felt it looked like a "beta test" for the marine codex that they just strapped on some BA characters and death company and called it "bam Blood angels PDF!". Now I know someone is going to say "derp this is only half of it so far" but these rules seem to be just lacking. Like something feels missing in the whole mixture. 
This is why I want to see the full WD when I can. Because if GW has some comment about how they set up the rules or what they expect, then I can apply proper commentary to it. Context is very important for the "Whys" of major changes and without them it just leads to wild speculation, usually negative, against the writers. The usual blah blah GW hates sisters etc etc

But yeah if the 6th rumors were true then we'd probably be pretty silly. Although without FAQs I bet there will be conflicts with all codexs


----------



## Necrosis

WallWeasels said:


> AP1 doesn't define it as melta, the exorcist is allowed because its a giant mobile relic.


If you read Apocalypse 2, it specifically states they are metla missiles



SilverTabby said:


> Just out of curiosity - as almost all the weaknesses you cite were there before this update, why do you play an army you obviously think is really quite fatally flawed and rubbish?
> 
> Leadership 9 is one point below the maximum you can get. I'd hardly call that "utter crap". Try playing an army with Ld7 almost across the board some time, or Ld 5 like much of a Nid army ends up being when an experienced opponent takes out all your synapse in turn 2. Then you'll understand utter crap Ld values :wink:
> 
> To be honest, I really can't see what all the bitching is about. I've played Sisters for a very long time. As someone who regularly forgot that Acts were even an option in the middle of a game, and who relied on the troops themselves rather than their funky extras _ and still had fun and regularly won games_, I'm not that upset by what I've seen so far with this. I'm willing to wait and see what the Wargear section and prices bring. Yes, I'll mourn the loss of the Book of St Lucius, but I'll live.
> 
> Seriously people, quit bitching about the changes and have some fun thinking up ways to make them work. So you can't do things the way you could before: well, adapt. It's what humans do best.
> 
> And it's not like you can't just keep using the old Codex anyway if you so choose. Even in Tournaments, at least until September. They can't make you use a list that doesn't have costs...


You don't understand my argument about leadership. You seem to be utterly ignoring my points. Ld9 is all good until you start taking negative modifiers. If you have nothing to negate these negative modifiers, then your leadership is crap regardless of how high it is. Nids at least have synapse, also stop comparing nids, the codex sucks. Comparing sisters to nids is comparing crap to crap.

Sisters before the white dwarf Strengths:
Close Range Shooting
Can Field lots of models
Best Special rules (due to acts of faith)
Leadership (due to book and act of faith that lets all squads regroup)
Able to take allies to make up for other weakness (you can ignore this one if you want)

Sisters Weakness:
Close Combat
Long Range Weapons
Stuck with 3 types of range weapons


Compared to:
Current Sisters Strengths:
Maybe close range shooting
Can Field lots of models

Sisters Weakness:
Leadership
Close Combat
Long Range Weapons
Stuck with 3 types of range weapons
No special rules that you can rely on (even says so in the codex)

As you can see the previous sisters had more strengths then weakness.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> *Blessed Ammunition*: Bolt Weapons loaded with Blessed Ammunition have the Rending USR.


Unlikely, since Retributors have their AOF which does the same thing.


----------



## Necrosis

From Dakka Dakka, fluff about sisters:



> Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.
> 
> - Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
> - A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
> - Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
> - Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
> - The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
> - Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.


To my surprises sisters have actually gotten some victories.


----------



## Grogbart

Shandathe said:


> *Events*:
> 
> San Leor Massacre: Loss, but avenged with overwhelming numbers (seriously, consider the number of actual enemy SM actually involved... against 9 Orders Militant).
> 
> War for Piety: Draw, but claimed as a victory. Actual problem solved by the Grey Knights instead.
> 
> Defence of Dimmamar: Might be a victory, but most likely a loss. That's what always happens when you think you score a win over the Eldar.
> 
> Slaughter of Sanctuary 101: Loss.
> 
> Promethean War: Loss. Bailed out by the Emperor tossing in a pokeball containing St. Celestine - who is now officially more of an Unliving Saint.
> 
> Martyrdom of Praxedes: Loss, but objective achieved. And at least she's properly dead. Note loss of Saint status - at the very least she didn't live to see it.


So, THIS was actually from the new White Dwarf and I don' need to be ashamed of myself for only ever having heard about two of these events?


----------



## TheKingElessar

One thing I don't get is this bitching about I3.

I mean, it's a downgrade, yes, and it makes HnR worse, very true.

But why the fuck did you ever deserve it in the first place??!!

Load of bullshit - you aren't superhuman, you're just excellent and pure examples of humanity. I4 is Space Marines, or Ork Warbosses, or basic Eldar - no fucking way regular Sisters deserve to be that fast.

Also, please stop calling Rending a USR, it isn't one.

It's a weapon special rule. World of difference. You don't call Sniper, Ordnance or Melta USRs...

If you get Immolators for ~60 points with a TL Multi-Melta as Dedicated Transports, you will be perfectly Competitive, just dull. Or, maybe 65 points with AV12 front, bridging the Razor-Pred gap, instead of being a Razorback with a woman driver.

Oh, and since we don't know what Laud Hailers do, what if they re-roll Acts of Faith you fail?

That'd be pretty good, yes?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheKingElessar said:


> One thing I don't get is this bitching about I3.
> 
> I mean, it's a downgrade, yes, and it makes HnR worse, very true.
> 
> But why the fuck did you ever deserve it in the first place??!!
> 
> Load of bullshit - you aren't superhuman, you're just excellent and pure examples of humanity. I4 is Space Marines, or Ork Warbosses, or basic Eldar - no fucking way regular Sisters deserve to be that fast.


EXACTLY! I4 is reserved for super humans like Ecclesiarchy Confessors, Preachers, Inquisitors and the super human Ratlings!
I3 units with the Furious Charge rule dont count since they are I3 base and only become I4 when charging, like the Penal Legion Troopers with Psychopaths rule.
Death Cult Assassins with I6 dont count either as even though they are human they spend their entire lives training, yes I know the Sisters also do this but they take breaks for prayers and other duties and the Power Armour obviously doesn't slow them down.


----------



## andrewm9

TheKingElessar said:


> One thing I don't get is this bitching about I3.
> 
> I mean, it's a downgrade, yes, and it makes HnR worse, very true.
> 
> But why the fuck did you ever deserve it in the first place??!!
> 
> Load of bullshit - you aren't superhuman, you're just excellent and pure examples of humanity. I4 is Space Marines, or Ork Warbosses, or basic Eldar - no fucking way regular Sisters deserve to be that fast.


So Marbo is superhuman or Sergeant Kell? How about the Inquisitors from Grey Knights are they? The answer is no they are examples of the pinnacle of humanity. Why shouldn't Seraphim or Celestians whose martial skills are so great they appear miraculous (or at least they were). Oddly enough Confessors and Preachers in this new dex also have a 4 Initiative. They clearly aren't superhuman either. The fact of the matter is that was an arbitrary change (and nerf at that).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is next months blurb









Hmm, on the page with Celestine it says "We also pich the Adepta Sororitas against Hive Fleet Leviathan in a battle report." and this last page of the WD says "Codex author Robin Cruddace also puts the army through their paces as they try to liberate a shrine world from the clutches of the Orks."

So will we be getting 2 battle reports or is this just another miss by the WD team?


----------



## TheKingElessar

It's hardly a nerf when your models were always shit in CC, now they're worse at something they were never good at - nerfs require you to lose a strength.

Death Cult Assassins ARE superhuman, just not in the Spess Mehreens sense. They are psycho-conditioned whackjobs with nothing they can do but fight. Sisters aren't.

Marbo and Kell are Special Characters - and, shock horror, those tend to be pretty Unique and powerful individuals. Ratlings are Abhuman, not superhuman - but their dexterity and different martial 'skills' make that perfectly acceptable.

Sisters don't have a Black Carapce, and therefore the armour SHOULD slow them down - if they should even be able to use it!

Confessors and Preachers are clearly on a permanent adrenaline high with the opportunity to smite the foes of the God-Emperor, and Inquisitors are genetically enhanced in most cases, and even the ones that aren't are still Heroes of the Imperium, not line troops, or even 'elite' troopers.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Sisters don't have a Black Carapce, and therefore the armour SHOULD slow them down - if they should even be able to use it!


The Black Carapace is a neural interface with the armour, it allows the body to tell the armour what it's doing directly.
Without that, the armour has to rely on sensors which watch how the person inside is moving, and try its best to move with them, much less responsive than the armour effectively being an extension of your body.

In short, yes, they should be able to wear it, any person could pick up a suit of power armour designed for non-Marines and wear it, but it would be sluggish as hell and possibly even unresponsive unless you are physically strong.


----------



## andrewm9

Winterous said:


> The Black Carapace is a neural interface with the armour, it allows the body to tell the armour what it's doing directly.
> Without that, the armour has to rely on sensors which watch how the person inside is moving, and try its best to move with them, much less responsive than the armour effectively being an extension of your body.
> 
> In short, yes, they should be able to wear it, any person could pick up a suit of power armour designed for non-Marines and wear it, but it would be sluggish as hell and possibly even unresponsive unless you are physically strong.


Actually according to the fluff that some people are so fond of throwing around power armor only ehances the reflexes of the wearer or at least the Sorortias power amor does. Thats from the Cain books where both the Velestian and the trainees move a lot faster


----------



## BattleSisterSaga

The initiative rant is rubbish, of course an elite unit of an elite human fighting force could have I4 since there are as mentioned above lots of other non marine humans running around with it.

I won't pass any judgement on the new codex before I have both WD parts myself and have tried it out properly, I am glad though that the sisters finally get some attention.


----------



## andrewm9

TheKingElessar said:


> It's hardly a nerf when your models were always shit in CC, now they're worse at something they were never good at - nerfs require you to lose a strength.
> 
> Death Cult Assassins ARE superhuman, just not in the Spess Mehreens sense. They are psycho-conditioned whackjobs with nothing they can do but fight. Sisters aren't.
> 
> Marbo and Kell are Special Characters - and, shock horror, those tend to be pretty Unique and powerful individuals. Ratlings are Abhuman, not superhuman - but their dexterity and different martial 'skills' make that perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Sisters don't have a Black Carapce, and therefore the armour SHOULD slow them down - if they should even be able to use it!
> 
> Confessors and Preachers are clearly on a permanent adrenaline high with the opportunity to smite the foes of the God-Emperor, and Inquisitors are genetically enhanced in most cases, and even the ones that aren't are still Heroes of the Imperium, not line troops, or even 'elite' troopers.


There weren't that bad. They were good enough to go a few rounds of assualt. Yes I am talking about Celestians and Seraphim. I regularly do it every game against dedicated assault units from the Blood Angels and other armies. I'm not saying I'm winnign teh assaults, but I'm not being wiped out either. Without stubborn or the ability to possibly go at the same time or before assautl troops that option vanishes. As a close range shooting army Sisters need a way to control the way people assault them. Seraphim were it and now they likely aren't since they will be unable to Hit and Run very well assuming they survive contact with the enemy. In 5th edition it always better to assault than be assaulted.

No Inquisitor I have ever read about including Eisenhorn and Ravenor has ever been genetically modified. Lets face it was arbitrary and its as simple as that. It has nothign to do with fluff. There is no way Marbo should be initiative 5 as a normal human except to hopefully make him useful in assault. Thats as fast as Space Marine Captain or a death cult assassin.


----------



## TheKingElessar

No question - Sisters are a close range army, and without a way to prevent/reduce/control assault are in trouble if on foot. Absolutely.

However, Seraphim under the WH rules are complete bollocks - and if you manage to go a few rounds with souped-up Sang Guard, TH/SS, Vanguard, Nid Warriors, DC, or even Howling Banshees, then I wonder wtf kind of bizarroworld you live in.

If that isn't what you meant, then we have different definitions of Dedicated Assault Units - because BA ASM aren't that. They are a close-range unit akin to Sisters, only without the double-tap, and with Furious Charge sometimes.

Marbo probably shouldn't be I5, fine. Though that helps to represent his sudden unexpected assault. 

What else?
Hardly a 'rant' by anyone's standards, let alone my own. I'm sure someone will agree that my ACTUAL rants tend to much more...elaborate.

A bunch of Independent Characters does not compare to a unit of normal humans (Celestians) I have seen rumoured as possibly Troops.

Winterous - exactly.

Andrewm9 - please refresh my memory, who wrote the Cain novels?


----------



## andrewm9

TheKingElessar said:


> No question - Sisters are a close range army, and without a way to prevent/reduce/control assault are in trouble if on foot. Absolutely.
> 
> However, Seraphim under the WH rules are complete bollocks - and if you manage to go a few rounds with souped-up Sang Guard, TH/SS, Vanguard, Nid Warriors, DC, or even Howling Banshees, then I wonder wtf kind of bizarroworld you live in.
> 
> If that isn't what you meant, then we have different definitions of Dedicated Assault Units - because BA ASM aren't that. They are a close-range unit akin to Sisters, only without the double-tap, and with Furious Charge sometimes.
> 
> Marbo probably shouldn't be I5, fine. Though that helps to represent his sudden unexpected assault.
> 
> What else?
> Hardly a 'rant' by anyone's standards, let alone my own. I'm sure someone will agree that my ACTUAL rants tend to much more...elaborate.
> 
> A bunch of Independent Characters does not compare to a unit of normal humans (Celestians) I have seen rumoured as possibly Troops.
> 
> Winterous - exactly.
> 
> Andrewm9 - please refresh my memory, who wrote the Cain novels?


Why don't they compare? For the same 'fluff reason' they shouldn't have it at all. Inquisitors are just as human the rest of the Imperium they are just a little more driven and lucky

Sandy Mitchell wrote the Cain novels. They were fun to read but I hardly hold them as shining examples of 40k fluff background. Cain rather handily defeats a lot of stuff that he shouldn't like a Hive Tyrant or Ork warboss in CC. Better lucky than good I say.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheKingElessar said:


> No question - Sisters are a close range army, and without a way to prevent/reduce/control assault are in trouble if on foot. Absolutely.


So how should this be balanced? Sisters have to get within the 12" range to be at maximum efficiency but unless they wipe the enemy to the last they will get stuck in combat which they will either lose or get held up in long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Blessed ammo for everyone would help ws armour 4 and up but it's against MEQ that an army has to compete with to be effective. All Sisters bolters being S5 AP3? This would help a little bit but it still doesn't prevent the enemy from assaulting.

The only way I can see the new Sisters being effective is if they are allot cheaper, 8pt for a basic sister and 10pt for Seraphim and Celestians, and can carry more special weapons than any other army in 40k.
If/When the Sisters get within the 12" range they have to be able to whipe out whatever is there. Basically IG that can only do damage at 12" or lower.

I wouldn't be surprised if Celestians would be able to get Furious Charge and everyone can replace bolter with a power weapon. Their current stats with 2 power weapons at around 13pt is reasonable when Death Cult has superior stats at 15pt.


----------



## Azezel

The obvious solution* would be to allow us to shoot when charged. Special rule, wargear, Act of Faith, don't care, it'd solve the problem.


*In fact, the game would be vastly improved if everyone could do that.


----------



## WallWeasels

TheKingElessar said:


> No question - Sisters are a close range army, and without a way to prevent/reduce/control assault are in trouble if on foot. Absolutely.
> 
> However, Seraphim under the WH rules are complete bollocks - and if you manage to go a few rounds with souped-up Sang Guard, TH/SS, Vanguard, Nid Warriors, DC, or even Howling Banshees, then I wonder wtf kind of bizarroworld you live in.
> 
> If that isn't what you meant, then we have different definitions of Dedicated Assault Units - because BA ASM aren't that. They are a close-range unit akin to Sisters, only without the double-tap, and with Furious Charge sometimes.
> 
> Marbo probably shouldn't be I5, fine. Though that helps to represent his sudden unexpected assault.
> 
> What else?
> Hardly a 'rant' by anyone's standards, let alone my own. I'm sure someone will agree that my ACTUAL rants tend to much more...elaborate.
> 
> A bunch of Independent Characters does not compare to a unit of normal humans (Celestians) I have seen rumoured as possibly Troops.


You seem to honestly be a little mad about this...for really little reason.
Regardless, your logical is basically saying that since they aren't amazing at combat, they have to be completely crap at it. I suggest making all non-combat units WS1 and I1 to relate to how little they know in combat. Just saying Celestians sucked before doesn't mean they should suck forever. Especially since this codex tries to show context that Celestians not only are experienced enough to be in combat, but also pro-actively want to bash your skull in. Seraphim have always been trained to use their bolt pistols in combat and I have always been surprised that seraphim were not the first unit to use pistols literally in combat. 

However you merely make poor excuses to human examples of higher iniatives than 4. Really? Out of the entire sisters army the only ones adrenaline charged are Confessors and Priests? Death Cultists may be fanatics but that doesn't make them faster. Stat profiles can sometimes imply the "average" of the army. THis is why generally special characters can be higher because the INDIVIDUAL limits of the human are higher than the AVERAGE limits of the human. in 40k the "real" human is WS2/BS2 I3 and LD5-6. Guard "train" to be slightly better than this and other armies in the Imperium train more. 

Power Armor is not slowing. No ruleset in, even individualist games, has slowed users using power armor. You realize that "power armor" means "powered armor", it literally helps you use it. Regardless, just read the snippet in C:WH about Sororitas Power Armor:


CodexWitchHunters said:


> The power armour used by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to deadly effect to utilise its abilities to the full."


Then, even more so if you go to the armory section that describes power armor again it says


CodexWitchHunters + Every Codex that has an armory section for power armor I could see said:


> "Made from thick ceramite plates and electronically motivated fibre bundles that replicate and enhance the movements of the wearer, power armour is among the best protective equipment the imperium can provide."


enhances the movements of the wearer? That doesn't sound slowing at all. Infact it sounds like it backs up the claim in the Cain series that power armor helps. This is usally the consensus of all writers and even codex's write this into the descriptions of power armor. 

Now if you want armor that slows, you are looking at Terminators...who oddly are I4. Strange, since all actual fluff about terminators imply they suffer form significant stress to perform at just normal levels and that they always remark that they feel more sluggish. Yet despite this handicap they can be trained to use it to full effect and compensate. For example, since I recently relistened to it, in Fireborn (audiobook) one terminator is ordered to run while shooting. It says he is unused to this, yet learns to compensate for it. Yet all forms of terminator armor are described as "cumbersome" and thus they don't get to sweeping advance, just merely "consolidate" aka move up. Notice that distinction? whats important between cumbersome and, as wintersous put it, "sluggish". 
One effects reactions and one doesn't.
Why is this important?
Look at the BGB:


BGB said:


> "Initiative (I): How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its initiative."


 Alertness? Reaction? Well the movement speed terminators are capable of moving at apparently isn't a reduction in either of these two, yet "powered armor" is? 
Although I dislike quoting lexicanum its section on sororitas power armor is has this to say: "The Adepta Sororitas use a version of power armour designed for the human shape and size. This armour increases the strength of the user, but not enough to match the strength of the Space Marines...Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged." Its sources used are Dark Heresy and C:WH. I'll have to check into the dark heresy commentary later (my friend has my books :|)

Long story short: Your argument is just pure bollocks. Sisters from day 1 are said to be trained in the martial styles of the original daughters of the emperor, which were skilled fighters from all the basic recounts. Stat profiles generally are more balance than fluff and although sometimes they can recount accurately what may be the average for their type, sometimes it all comes down to GW maybe trying to balance something out. Stormtroopers may be "Elite" but they are not especially trained in combat (like hand to hand I mean) similar to sisters are. I find it easy to accept that Battle Sisters can be written off as "trained in combat, but not amazing at it due to lack of experience" but celestians have the training, and the experience. Hell seraphim are all about that as having two pistols pretty much puts you in the face of the enemy and are trained to work with that.

[edit]So really, what is it you want sisters to do? Since clearly combat is never, ever, going to be an option. Yet as MadCow says...how is this balanced? Unless you literally kill anyone you come in close contact with, you just die. Although it could change with wargear, atm it appears morale is the weakest its ever been. Oh boy did you take Kyrinov? Oh well atleast you pased that test but now you die from fearless wounds instead. So far two models are stubborn: Canoness and Jacobus. The first will most likely end up in its own command squad anyway and the latter most likely in battle conclaves. So how does this help the generic sister?


----------



## Necrosis

Grogbart said:


> So, THIS was actually from the new White Dwarf and I don' need to be ashamed of myself for only ever having heard about two of these events?


I think someone needs to actually post the actually sentences instead of there own personal view of it. Cause if your compare your source to my source they are describing the same battles. They just have a different view on them.


----------



## Grogbart

Necrosis said:


> I think someone needs to actually post the actually sentences instead of there own personal view of it. Cause if your compare your source to my source they are describing the same battles. They just have a different view on them.


Well, my "Source" was Shandathe's post from a few pages back!:wasntme:


----------



## Katie Drake

I'm not sure why we're arguing fluff. Fluff does not equal rules.

Sisters are I3 because the games designers said so. Priests are I4 because the writers want to reflect the fact that Priests are meant to be characters that are superior to line infantry. Death Cult Assassins are I6 because that's what the writers decided they needed for the Assassins to fulfill their intended role as assault specialists. Referencing background material that is more prone to change between editions, Black Library novels and more than some people's underwear is pointless and sort of hilarious to watch.


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not sure why we're arguing fluff. Fluff does not equal rules.
> 
> Sisters are I3 because the games designers said so. Priests are I4 because the writers want to reflect the fact that Priests are meant to be characters that are superior to line infantry. Death Cult Assassins are I6 because that's what the writers decided they needed for the Assassins to fulfill their intended role as assault specialists. Referencing background material that is more prone to change between editions, Black Library novels and more than some people's underwear is pointless and sort of hilarious to watch.


Or GW just screwed up like they did with arco-flagellants. Who for some reason are S4 instead of S5. Also if priest are suppose to be character superior to line infantry then why are they ws and bs 3? All in all the I4 really hurts the sisters close combat troops. Also the whole argument just use faith, well as said before faith cannot be relied on and faith can also only be used in your turn. So during your opponent turn all your special rules become null.


----------



## Katie Drake

Necrosis said:


> Or GW just screwed up like they did with arco-flagellants. Who for some reason are S4 instead of S5.


So you're saying that Celestians and Seraphim have I3 rather than I4 due to a typo, because I'm positive that's what happened to the Arco-Flagellants.



> Also if priest are suppose to be character superior to line infantry then why are they ws and bs 3?


Because the designers chose to give them better Initiative rather than WS or BS?


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> So you're saying that Celestians and Seraphim have I3 rather than I4, because I'm positive that's what happened to the Arco-Flagellants.
> 
> Because the designers chose to give them better Initiative rather than WS or BS?


I'm just saying its a possibility, one that is not to unlikely. Remember when blood angels vindicators didn't shot blast templates. GW makes mistakes, whats to say this wasn't a mistake to. I'm not positive that it is but I'm just saying it could easily be a mistake.

Your argument was that the Designers decided to make them better then your line infantry cause there characters. Yet they have a low ws and bs which seems to contradict your argument.


----------



## Katie Drake

Necrosis said:


> Your argument was that the Designers decided to make them better then your line infantry cause there characters. Yet they have a low ws and bs which seems to contradict your argument.


Then explain why they were given I4 at all if not to be better than line infantry? Clearly, the writers didn't feel that increased WS and BS were appropriate for whatever reason, so they didn't give them that. Instead they gave them increased I.


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> Then explain why they were given I4 at all if not to be better than line infantry? Clearly, the writers didn't feel that increased WS and BS were appropriate for whatever reason, so they didn't give them that. Instead they gave them increased I.


Simply they were not meant to be better then line infantry, instead Seraphims and Celestians should have been I4.


----------



## andrewm9

Katie Drake said:


> So you're saying that Celestians and Seraphim have I3 rather than I4, because I'm positive that's what happened to the Arco-Flagellants.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the designers chose to give them better Initiative rather than WS or BS?


Arco-flagellants were made into crap in both Grey Knights and Sisters. The profiles are still different though in the 2 codexes. Grey Knight ones have S5 instead of STR 4 like in Sisters, but Sisters ones have BS 3 (why?) over the Grey Knights. Maybe they get guns?

For whatever reason they lowered the initiative to 3 and removed the 4+ invuln save and repalced it with feel no pain. The toughness also dropped alot from 5 to 3. attacks were smoothed out from 1d6 to 4 which is an improvement until you realize they lost their power weapons. With the initaive nerf and no grenades is unlikley they will be killing most units in assault which is sad since its their only purpose. Maybe they can go beat up some guardsmen. They also got slower since they no longer have holy rage. Also they are no longer Fearless so those nearly mindless killing machines can run away now. All of this is true in both codexes. Its just a nerf to make Grey Knights look good and focus on the new models. I suppose its a blessing that they don't have the rage USR.

The designers chose to do those things but I wonder why since overall they became dreadful compared to what they used to be. before anyone asks I woudl gladly pay the 35 points for what they used to be as I thougth they were aweseome aside fromt eh god awful priest rules. Though tht was manageable.


----------



## Katie Drake

andrewm9 said:


> Arco-flagellants were made into crap in both Grey Knights and Sisters. The profiles are still different though in the 2 codexes. Grey Knight ones have S5 instead of STR 4 like in Sisters, but Sisters ones have BS 3 (why?) over the Grey Knights. Maybe they get guns?


That's exactly what I'm saying, though - the difference between the Grey Knight and Battle Sister Arcos is only there due to a mistake on the part of the writers and that they'll be S5 after a fix.



> For whatever reason they lowered the initiative to 3 and removed the 4+ invuln save and repalced it with feel no pain. The toughness also dropped alot from 5 to 3. attacks were smoothed out from 1d6 to 4 which is an improvement until you realize they lost their power weapons. With the initaive nerf and no grenades is unlikley they will be killing most units in assault which is sad since its their only purpose. Maybe they can go beat up some guardsmen. They also got slower since they no longer have holy rage. Also they are no longer Fearless so those nearly mindless killing machines can run away now. All of this is true in both codexes. Its just a nerf to make Grey Knights look good and focus on the new models. I suppose its a blessing that they don't have the rage USR.


Yes, I'm acutely aware of what the old rules were.

They were changed because, frankly, the old Arcos were garbage that nobody took in lists intended to win games. The new Arcos have had their role changed a bit from an "uncontrollable, run at the enemy flailing about and almost inevitably being shot down, accomplishing nothing and costing a ton of points" to a model that is used to tank wounds for Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins and unleash a flurry of high Strength attacks to help the unit better deal with hordes of cheap infantry.

Intentionally nerfing the Arcos just to make the Grey Knights look better is... well, that's the most interesting thing I've heard so far today.



> The designers chose to do those things but I wonder why since overall they became dreadful compared to what they used to be. before anyone asks I woudl gladly pay the 35 points for what they used to be as I thougth they were aweseome aside fromt eh god awful priest rules. Though tht was manageable.


The designers chose to do this because the old Arcos were crap. It's as simple as that.


----------



## andrewm9

Katie Drake said:


> The designers chose to do this because the old Arcos were crap. It's as simple as that.


They certainly hit better than the junk we have now. Ws 4, S 4, I 4, T 5, 1d6+1 attacks on the charge with a 4+ invuln save. They are somewhat controllable since they can't run over your own rhinos. I sometimes held them in reserve to use them as counter assault in later turns to protect my Exorcists from death by grenade or retributors when I fielded them in Apoc.


----------



## Katie Drake

andrewm9 said:


> They certainly hit better than the junk we have now. Ws 4, S 4, I 4, T 5, 1d6+1 attacks on the charge with a 4+ invuln save. They are somewhat controllable since they can't run over your own rhinos. I sometimes held them in reserve to use them as counter assault in later turns to protect my Exorcists from death by grenade or retributors when I fielded them in Apoc.


I'm aware of the old rules.

They were controllable if you didn't switch off their pacifier helms too, but that didn't make them a good unit. 35 points per model is an awful lot and you could buy other, much better stuff for those points that was more reliable and... well, not bad. The new Arcos are fine and have much more practical applications.


----------



## Necrosis

Arco use to suck. Here is why:

1: They need a priest to be fielded. Don't even get me started on how that guy was bad.

2: They can't be transported

3: You can't control them due to holy rage

4: There 35 points each, unless your fighting terminators they won't make there points back.

5: Unpredictable, you don't know how fast or how many attacks each of them will get and if you roll a 6 they kill themselves.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Let's do some math hammer just for the hell of it. I've seen a few people trying to do some math hammering but most get it wrong. So lets take a look at averages and in this the most common outcome of a battle.

As the hot topic is Celestians I will face them off vs Assault Marines as Celestians seems to be more assault focused than shooty (we wont know for sure until we see wargear though. I'm guessing you can equip them with 2 PW weapons for cheap).

Celestians are 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++ (both Celestians and Superior have same stats)
Act of Faith: +1S and Fearless
Special Rules: Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith
Wargear: PA, Boltgun, Boltpistol, frag and krak

So they have 3 attacks on the charge, they do not have 2 pistols or 1 pistol and CCW. You will most likely be able to trade the boltgun for a CCW or another pistol.

Assault Marines are 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+ Sergeant has +1A and +1Ld
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics
Wargear: PA, CCW, Boltpistol, frag, krak and jump pack

As we dont know the options for Celestians they will all use base gear.

There will be 10 Celestians vs 10 Assault Marines, they will both get to shoot and charge from 6" distance.

*Assault Marines get to assault*
10 Celestians shooting Tactical Marines with Boltguns



Celestian
Shots:	20 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	13.333 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	6.667 
Saved Wounds:	4.444 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.222 
Models Killed:	2.222 

Wounds:Chance
0 : 9.483%
1 : 23.708%
2 : 28.153%
3 : 21.115%
4 : 11.217%
5 : 4.487%
6 : 1.402%
7 : 0.351%
8 : 0.071%
9 : 0.012%
10 : 0.002%

Assault Marines 
Hits:	13.333
Wounds:	6.667
Saves:	4.444
Wounds Lost:	2.222


Models Lost:	2.222 / 10 (22.2%)

8 Assault Marines shooting Celestians with Boltpistols




Assault Marines
Shots:	8 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	5.333 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	4.444 
Saved Wounds:	2.963 
Unsaved Wounds:	1.481 
Models Killed:	1.481

Wounds:Chance
0 : 19.43%
1 : 35.327%
2 : 28.101%
3 : 12.773%
4 : 3.629%
5 : 0.66%
6 : 0.075%
7 : 0.005%

Celestians 
Hits:	5.333
Wounds:	4.444
Saves:	2.963
Wounds Lost:	1.481


Models Lost:	1.481 / 10 (14.8%)

8 Assault Marines assault the Celestians




Assault Marines
Attacks:	25 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	12.5 
Wound Chance:	66.67% 
Wounds:	8.333 
Saved Wounds:	5.556 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.778 
Models Killed:	2.778 

Wounds:Chance
0 : 5.262%
1 : 16.445%
2 : 24.668%
3 : 23.64%
4 : 16.252%
5 : 8.533%
6 : 3.555%
7 : 1.206%
8 : 0.339%
9 : 0.08%
10 : 0.016%
11 : 0.003%

Celestians 
Hits:	12.5
Wounds:	8.333
Saves:	5.556
Wounds Lost:	2.778
Models Lost:	2.778 / 9 (30.9%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:4	2.778

6 Celestians hit back at I3




Celestians
Attacks:	12 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	6 
Wound Chance:	33.33% 
Wounds:	2 
Saved Wounds:	1.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.667 
Models Killed:	0.667

Wounds:Chance
0 : 50.364%
1 : 35.551%
2 : 11.502%
3 : 2.255%
4 : 0.298%
5 : 0.028%
6 : 0.002%

Celestians 
Hits:	6
Wounds:	2
Saves:	1.333
Wounds Lost:	0.667
Models Lost:	0.667 / 8 (8.3%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:3	0.667

So in a turn where the Celestians shoot the Assault Marines with Boltguns and then get assaulted they will on average kill 3 (2 from shooting, 1 in assault) Assault Marines and the marines will kill 4 (1 from shooting, 3 in assault) Celestians. From here on the Celestians will on average get wiped out.



*Celestians get to Assault*
10 Celestians shooting Assault Marines with Boltpistols




Celestian
Shots:	10 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	6.667 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	3.333 
Saved Wounds:	2.222 
Unsaved Wounds:	1.111 
Models Killed:	1.111

Wounds:Chance
0 : 30.795%
1 : 38.493%
2 : 21.652%
3 : 7.217%
4 : 1.579%
5 : 0.237%
6 : 0.025%
7 : 0.002%

Assault Marines 
Hits:	6.667
Wounds:	3.333
Saves:	2.222
Wounds Lost:	1.111


Models Lost:	1.111 / 10 (11.1%)

10 Celestians with successful Act of Faith assaulting 9 Assault Marines
Assault Marines hit first




Assault Marines
Attacks:	18 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	9 
Wound Chance:	66.67% 
Wounds:	6 
Saved Wounds:	4 
Unsaved Wounds:	2 
Models Killed:	2

Wounds:Chance
0 : 12.002%
1 : 27.005%
2 : 28.692%
3 : 19.128%
4 : 8.966%
5 : 3.138%
6 : 0.85%
7 : 0.182%
8 : 0.031%
9 : 0.004%

Celestians 
Hits:	9
Wounds:	6
Saves:	4
Wounds Lost:	2
Models Lost:	2 / 10 (20%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:4	2

8 Celestians hit back




Celestians
Attacks:	24 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	12 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	6 
Saved Wounds:	4 
Unsaved Wounds:	2 
Models Killed:	2

Wounds:Chance
0 : 12.39%
1 : 27.033%
2 : 28.262%
3 : 18.841%
4 : 8.992%
5 : 3.27%
6 : 0.941%
7 : 0.22%
8 : 0.043%
9 : 0.007%
10 : 0.001%

Assault Marines 
Hits:	12
Wounds:	6
Saves:	4
Wounds Lost:	2
Models Lost:	2 / 9 (22.2%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:3	2

8 Celestians left to 7 Assault Marines
Next turn, no S4 on Celestians as you can't use the AoF in opponents turn
7 Assault Marines attack




Assault Marines
Attacks:	15 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	7.5 
Wound Chance:	66.67% 
Wounds:	5 
Saved Wounds:	3.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	1.667 
Models Killed:	1.667

Wounds:Chance
0 : 17.089%
1 : 32.042%
2 : 28.036%
3 : 15.186%
4 : 5.695%
5 : 1.566%
6 : 0.326%
7 : 0.052%
8 : 0.007%
9 : 0.001%

Celestians 
Hits:	7.5
Wounds:	5
Saves:	3.333
Wounds Lost:	1.667
Models Lost:	1.667 / 8 (20.8%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:4	1.667

6 Celestians hit back




Celestians
Attacks:	12 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	6 
Wound Chance:	33.33% 
Wounds:	2 
Saved Wounds:	1.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.667 
Models Killed:	0.667

Wounds:Chance
0 : 50.364%
1 : 35.551%
2 : 11.502%
3 : 2.255%
4 : 0.298%
5 : 0.028%
6 : 0.002%

Assault Marines 
Hits:	6
Wounds:	2
Saves:	1.333
Wounds Lost:	0.667
Models Lost:	0.667 / 7 (9.5%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:3	0.667

There are now 6 Celestians left vs 6 Assault Marines

Next turn with successful AoF
6 Assault Marines hit




Assault Marines
Attacks:	13 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	6.5 
Wound Chance:	66.67% 
Wounds:	4.333 
Saved Wounds:	2.889 
Unsaved Wounds:	1.444 
Models Killed:	1.444

Wounds:Chance
0 : 21.628%
1 : 35.146%
2 : 26.359%
3 : 12.081%
4 : 3.775%
5 : 0.849%
6 : 0.142%
7 : 0.018%
8 : 0.002%

Celestians 
Hits:	6.5
Wounds:	4.333
Saves:	2.889
Wounds Lost:	1.444
Models Lost:	1.444 / 6 (24.1%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:4	1.444

5 Celestians hit back




Celestians
Attacks:	10 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	5 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	2.5 
Saved Wounds:	1.667 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.833 
Models Killed:	0.833

Wounds:Chance
0 : 41.89%
1 : 38.082%
2 : 15.579%
3 : 3.777%
4 : 0.601%
5 : 0.066%
6 : 0.005%

Assault Marines 
Hits:	5
Wounds:	2.5
Saves:	1.667
Wounds Lost:	0.833
Models Lost:	0.833 / 6 (13.9%)


Kills in initiative order:
I:3	0.833

There are now 5 Celestians left vs 5 Assault Marines but the Celestians are slowly losing because they dont have S4 every turn.

All in all I'd say that Celestians are just under Assault Marines in effectiveness. From these numbers it's likely they would win vs Tactical Marines on a similar numbers basis.


----------



## WallWeasels

Well you may have to consider the fact that the celestians may have already ran due to losing by 1. Although an 8 test is fairly good chances to succeed, running would end the combat and most likely kill them due to I3 vs I4. Also faith would be a 50% chance to and with the next. So chances are if they failed, we'd see...well less assault marines dead on that first assault  They got whomped on the "assault marines assault" question and since most cases will be an "18" inch assault they may not of even gotten a chance to kill 2 assaulties before they assaulted ;-; Net result: more dead

Plus well...being equal to assault marines still results you being basically crap. Since how popular are assault marines? Well...that answers that <_< Although certainly its a hard comparison because despite being combaty celestians have shooty. Functionally they could be a shooty geared squad and perform the same. Doubt Celestians will get a ccw option I think. They may get a power-sword "special weapon" option like you said, but I dont think it'll have a replace entire squad option. Included that Assault Marines do cost more than the celestians in the first place one could easily argue celestians "win" since it would start off like 10 celestians to 6~7 assault marines. Regardless, not impressive results for a unit thats profile says will "easily smash skulls" 

edit: just a tad depressing really.


----------



## Necrosis

Your also assuming that you pass the act of faith each turn.


----------



## Katie Drake

So what we can take away from this is that Battle Sister elites (not necessarily Elite choices, but elite troops) lose to another army's assault specialists, which makes sense to me.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> So what we can take away from this is that Battle Sister elites (not necessarily Elite choices, but elite troops) lose to another army's assault specialists, which makes sense to me.


Could argue it makes sense until celestians end up funcftionally being "combat" in nature. Their faith is combat based, their profile is more combat inclined than the standard sister (A2+WS4 and all) and yeah. Whats sad is that our more "assault" capable of sister so far is weak against one of the weaker space marine "assault" units. :laugh:

edit: exceptions of course being blood angels whom would make a quick wipe of the unit based on the fact that they'd probably be charging (faster afterall) and therefore strength 5 ;-;


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> You don't understand my argument about leadership. You seem to be utterly ignoring my points. Ld9 is all good until you start taking negative modifiers. If you have nothing to negate these negative modifiers, then your leadership is crap regardless of how high it is. Nids at least have synapse, also stop comparing nids, the codex sucks. Comparing sisters to nids is comparing crap to crap.


You seem to be of the belief that ways to negate the negative modifiers that *every army* faces when taking leadership tests are a common thing. The Book of St Lucius was pretty much unique and _hugely_ overpowered, and even Games Developers wince when facing armies with it in every unit. Stubborn isn't as common as you seem to think. Most armies have maybe one unit that can ignore negative modifiers, if that. Even marines take those modifiers, they just rally afterwards (which can be a downside if you do it right). 

Every army takes these negative modifiers, and starting with a high Ld makes you more capable of taking these modifiers than armies that start at a lower value. 

Sisters have been spoilt with the Book, and now the system shock of having to take what every other army takes is causing a lot of annoyance. Personally, I'm shrugging my shoulders and thinking it was nice while it lasted but have accepted that it was *never* going to survive a new Dex. 

And regarding the Nid Codex - it isn't "crap". Challenging to use properly yes, but not crap. Tyranids are my second army, and again, I play a lot with them and have huge amounts of fun, and win quite a lot. I guess I'm just a sucker for armies that actually require some thought to utilise right, rather than ones you can cookie-cutter with, or have special rules that make it easy to play without bothering to work out how to win without said special rules.

I dislike it when people say "you must have this thing in your army or you will lose / are doing it wrong". I have won games without ever making a single AoF roll. I only started using the Book in the last couple of years. I dislike using Rhinos. Yet somehow, I do ok. Could it possibly be that working with what you have and adapting accordingly rather than bemoaning what you don't and struggling to find substitutes to make you work like other armies is the way forwards? No, that can't be right...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just did a Vassal test, and the only conclusion I can come to is that it will be the luck of the dice that determines who wins.




<MadCowCrazy> rolls 10 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound...
* 6 out of 10 dice hit (4+) = (5,5,5,4,4,4,3,3,1,1)
* 4 out of 6 dice wound (4+) = (6,5,4,4,2,2)
* Amounting to 4 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 4 dice, 3+ to save...
* 3 out of 4 dice save (3+) = (6,4,3,2)
* Amounting to 3 saves, being 1 wound.
<MadCowCrazy> - Celestians kill 1 Assault Marines from shooting their Boltguns
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 19 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound...
* 8 out of 19 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,5,5,4,4,4,4,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1)
* 5 out of 8 dice wound (3+) = (6,5,4,3,3,2,1,1)
* Amounting to 5 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 5 dice, 3+ to save...
* 2 out of 5 dice save (3+) = (6,4,2,2,1)
* Amounting to 2 saves, being 3 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Assault Marines kill 3 Celestians at I4
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 21 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound...
* 9 out of 21 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,6,5,5,5,5,5,5,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1)
* 7 out of 9 dice wound (4+) = (6,6,6,5,5,4,4,3,2)
* Amounting to 7 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 7 dice, 3+ to save...
* 4 out of 7 dice save (3+) = (6,5,4,3,1,1,1)
* Amounting to 4 saves, being 3 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Celestians kill 3 Assault Marines at I4
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 13 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound...
* 5 out of 13 dice hit (4+) = (6,5,4,4,4,3,2,2,2,2,1,1,1)
* 3 out of 5 dice wound (3+) = (5,5,4,2,1)
* Amounting to 3 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 3 dice, 3+ to save...
* 2 out of 3 dice save (3+) = (6,4,1)
* Amounting to 2 saves, being 1 wound.
<MadCowCrazy> - Assault Marines kill 1 Celestian at I4
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 12 dice, 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound...
* 6 out of 12 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,5,5,4,4,3,3,3,2,2,2)
* 2 out of 6 dice wound (5+) = (6,5,2,2,1,1)
* Amounting to 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 2 dice, 3+ to save...
* 0 out of 2 dice save (3+) = (2,1)
* Amounting to 0 saves, being 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Celestians kill 2 Assault Marines at I3
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 9 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound...
* 4 out of 9 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,5,4,3,3,3,1,1)
* 2 out of 4 dice wound (3+) = (4,4,1,1)
* Amounting to 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 2 dice, 3+ to save...
* 0 out of 2 dice save (3+) = (1,1)
* Amounting to 0 saves, being 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Assault Marines kill 2 Celestians at I4
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 8 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound...
* 5 out of 8 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,5,5,4,3,3,1)
* 2 out of 5 dice wound (4+) = (5,5,3,2,2)
* Amounting to 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 2 dice, 3+ to save...
* 0 out of 2 dice save (3+) = (2,2)
* Amounting to 0 saves, being 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Celestians kill 2 Assault Marines at I3
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 5 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound...
* 3 out of 5 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,5,1,1)
* 0 out of 3 dice wound (3+) = (2,1,1)
* Amounting to 0 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Assault Marines fail to do wounds at I4
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 8 dice, 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound...
* 4 out of 8 dice hit (4+) = (5,5,4,4,3,3,3,1)
* 2 out of 4 dice wound (5+) = (6,5,3,2)
* Amounting to 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> rolls 2 dice, 3+ to save...
* 0 out of 2 dice save (3+) = (2,2)
* Amounting to 0 saves, being 2 wounds.
<MadCowCrazy> - Celestians kill 2 Marines at I3 and wipe the unit
<MadCowCrazy> - 4 Celestians remain





> Also faith would be a 50% chance to and with the next


The first turn it would be on 4+ (+1 Celestian Superior) , the next turn and from then on 3+ (+1 Celestian Superior and +1 Casualty).



> Your also assuming that you pass the act of faith each turn.


Yes, if I did not they would lose more likely than not and we already know this, I just wanted to compare them to each other with active AoF.

Heck, why aren't Acts of Faith simply a Ld test that works in the same way as psychic powers but without perils. With so many shitty faiths that seems in line with the power level of the GKs psyhic powers.


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> Could argue it makes sense until celestians end up funcftionally being "combat" in nature. Their faith is combat based, their profile is more combat inclined than the standard sister (A2+WS4 and all) and yeah. Whats sad is that our more "assault" capable of sister so far is weak against one of the weaker space marine "assault" units. :laugh:


Celestians are close combat in nature like Sternguard are. Sternguard get A2, have access to a special close combat weapon, Ld9 (which is good for close combat) and similar, but their other abilities (special ammo, being able to take lots of special, heavy and combi-weapons) make them more of a shooting unit than an assault one, just like how Celestians have access to more special and heavy weapons than a normal Sister squad.

So instead of being a close combat unit, Celestians are a shooting unit that is more solid in combat than the line troops, just like Sternguard.

Naturally I'm making some educated guesses on how Celestians will work in the new rules, but I feel that they'll be accurate.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> Celestians are close combat in nature like Sternguard are. Sternguard get A2, have access to a special close combat weapon, Ld9 (which is good for close combat) and similar, but their other abilities (special ammo, being able to take lots of special, heavy and combi-weapons) make them more of a shooting unit than an assault one, just like how Celestians have access to more special and heavy weapons than a normal Sister squad.
> 
> So instead of being a close combat unit, Celestians are a shooting unit that is more solid in combat than the line troops, just like Sternguard.
> 
> Naturally I'm making some educated guesses on how Celestians will work in the new rules, but I feel that they'll be accurate.


Decent enough comparison but I doubt it'll end up that way. Sadly it'll most likely end up more like "marines and scouts" just with the same armor type. 
Since both are going to be troops this means most likely battle sisters will be 10-20 models, have only 1 or 0 heavy weapon options (or just 1 heavy flamer option and no H.bolter/M.melta) and celestians will be 5-10 models with a second heavy weapon option at 10. Sternguard are a good comparison but functionally the two units do have different implications of what they should do. Special Ammo is entirely geared to shooting but they can be geared to be better at combat (and with pedro 2A base and 1 bonus + 1 charging can be scary). 
On the other hand celestians have a combat power and, so far, no real "shooting" ability other than weapon options. now they could have some silly special ammo to buy or blessed ammo making them S5 bolters or something...but I'd imagine that would be in their unit profile somewhere in the bestiary. Since faith can only be used in your turn you have to charge to use it or charged and survive a turn. So far pistols + flamer of some sort may be slightly superior to the shooting, it won't be an option against an actually "good" combat unit.

edit: Pardon the text decided to make it a url, not sure how exactly I achieved this as I didnt click anything or intend to bold it. I meant Heavybolter + multi-melta


----------



## MadCowCrazy

What's with the "http://h.bolter/M.melta" link? You can use bold text to achieve the same thing as a link? or did you mean to like to some website? The current one doesn't work.


Question: When exactly do you do your faith test for the Celestians?

Act of Faith rule says: An AoF can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the Shooting phase, or strike blows in the Assault phase.

So RAW I should be able to move my units into assault and then do the test of faith, right?
This can be huge as what if you only have 1 Faith Point but 2 units that will assault in a phase but have to move through difficult terrain. What if one of them doesn't make it into assault, the one you used your Act of Faith on...

But from the AoF rule I take it that I can do the difficult terrain tests and if I get into combat I can chose to attempt the AoF or not.


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> Decent enough comparison but I doubt it'll end up that way. Sadly it'll most likely end up more like "marines and scouts" just with the same armor type.
> Since both are going to be troops this means most likely battle sisters will be 10-20 models, have only 1 or 0 heavy weapon options (or just 1 heavy flamer option and no H.bolter/M.melta)


I think normal Battle Sisters will be able to take one of any of the three heavy weapons, but that's just my opinion. 



> and celestians will be 5-10 models with a second heavy weapon option at 10.


Yeah, I'm thinking it'll be that they truly will Sternguard out and have the ability to spam combi weapons and take either two specials or heavies regardless of unit size.



> Sternguard are a good comparison but functionally the two units do have different implications of what they should do. Special Ammo is entirely geared to shooting but they can be geared to be better at combat (and with pedro 2A base and 1 bonus + 1 charging can be scary).
> On the other hand celestians have a combat power and, so far, no real "shooting" ability other than weapon options. now they could have some silly special ammo to buy or blessed ammo making them S5 bolters or something...but I'd imagine that would be in their unit profile somewhere in the bestiary. Since faith can only be used in your turn you have to charge to use it or charged and survive a turn. So far pistols + flamer of some sort may be slightly superior to the shooting, it won't be an option against an actually "good" combat unit.


Sternguard aren't a perfect comparison no, but it was the best one I could think of as the two units share a lot of similarities. Maybe Chaos Chosen would be slightly more apt, though I guess they're more similar to Dominions... I did hear rumors of a "psybolt" like upgrade for some units, so I wouldn't be shocked to see Celestians get S5 bolters. Either way though, I agree that Celestians won't be able to tackle "good" combat units, but that's because Sisters are a shooting army and I still don't consider Celestians to be a close combat unit, despite leaning that way some in characteristics and special rules.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> What's with the "http://h.bolter/M.melta" link? You can use bold text to achieve the same thing as a link? or did you mean to like to some website? The current one doesn't work.
> 
> 
> Question: When exactly do you do your faith test for the Celestians?
> 
> Act of Faith rule says: An AoF can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the Shooting phase, or strike blows in the Assault phase.
> 
> So RAW I should be able to move my units into assault and then do the test of faith, right?
> This can be huge as what if you only have 1 Faith Point but 2 units that will assault in a phase but have to move through difficult terrain. What if one of them doesn't make it into assault, the one you used your Act of Faith on...
> 
> But from the AoF rule I take it that I can do the difficult terrain tests and if I get into combat I can chose to attempt the AoF or not.


Sorry somehow my "multi-melta/heavy bolter" shortening turned into a url...
Anyway it says on the army special rules page "an act of faith can be attempted IMMEDIATELY before a sisters of battle unit acts during a phase. e.g immediately before the unit moves in the movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the shooting phase or strikes blows in the assault phase."
That implies assault phase ones are done before they strike. 
So yes if its an assault power you may use it before you strike. Sad that seraphims can't be used in the assault phase, just shooting. 

Katie: I dunno I am really doubting a troops choice (I mean a real one, not a "special troops choice" ) will have combi-weapon spam. That will just HUGELY side towards celestians. Take 3-4 rhinos of, as rumored, fairly inexpensive celestians and have a billion combi weapons melt face? doubt it >_>

Anyway...I think psybolts will be on Retributors or vehicle upgrade mostly. Although I remember hearing early early rumors of celestians getting "ammo" types. So maybe that was the fact that celestians got psybolts? A bit hazy really but possible. However you are quick to say sisters are a shooting army. Considering the very radical changes already in these rules from the "standard" we had...Id question saying anything is possible now. Sorry, by that I mean anything is possible when you have "Nun-Soup" Ward on your side with his co-pilot Cruddace. Silly points asides, I think an army that has good close range shooting has to have some decent combat functions. Certainly you won't be charging genestealers or howling banshees...but if the unit had a few models left then you might considering BP then charge. But if it was a choice between shooting or charging tac-marines then you might always choose BP + charge as you are superior in that regard. Battle Conclaves are the only real combat unit we have and we have yet to see full tale on them. They appear okay now, but there might be a deal-breaker in there somewhere. Well, hell, thats pretty much the entire book so far. So much can hinge on being a complete deal-break or complete "zomg OP" based on wargear. OP or not I don't like the methods done to get there so I'll mostly have a fluff/feel problem with everything they do


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> You seem to be of the belief that ways to negate the negative modifiers that *every army* faces when taking leadership tests are a common thing. The Book of St Lucius was pretty much unique and _hugely_ overpowered, and even Games Developers wince when facing armies with it in every unit. Stubborn isn't as common as you seem to think. Most armies have maybe one unit that can ignore negative modifiers, if that. Even marines take those modifiers, they just rally afterwards (which can be a downside if you do it right).
> 
> Every army takes these negative modifiers, and starting with a high Ld makes you more capable of taking these modifiers than armies that start at a lower value.
> 
> Sisters have been spoilt with the Book, and now the system shock of having to take what every other army takes is causing a lot of annoyance. Personally, I'm shrugging my shoulders and thinking it was nice while it lasted but have accepted that it was *never* going to survive a new Dex.
> 
> And regarding the Nid Codex - it isn't "crap". Challenging to use properly yes, but not crap. Tyranids are my second army, and again, I play a lot with them and have huge amounts of fun, and win quite a lot. I guess I'm just a sucker for armies that actually require some thought to utilise right, rather than ones you can cookie-cutter with, or have special rules that make it easy to play without bothering to work out how to win without said special rules.
> 
> I dislike it when people say "you must have this thing in your army or you will lose / are doing it wrong". I have won games without ever making a single AoF roll. I only started using the Book in the last couple of years. I dislike using Rhinos. Yet somehow, I do ok. Could it possibly be that working with what you have and adapting accordingly rather than bemoaning what you don't and struggling to find substitutes to make you work like other armies is the way forwards? No, that can't be right...


Once again you seem to have miss the point. You seem to believe that ld9 is good without anything to back it up. Nids have synpase, Space marines have they shall know no fear, guards have commissar and stubborn, orks have mob rule and boss pole, Chaos and Daemons have lots of fearless unit. Space marines lose combat and get run down, wait they have they shall know no fear so now they are fearless which is better then getting run down. They also auto regroup and can regroup when below 50 percent. I'm not talking about book, I'm talking about 40k in general. Every 5th edition army (and some 4th edition armies) has a way to back up there leadership, sisters of battle no longer do. They have no rerolls, no stubborn, no fearless. Unless you want to say acts of faith but we shouldn't rely on them and not all units can use them to regroup, not to mention you can also easily fail the act of faith. Your whole argument is about the book was to good. Forget the book, just look how other armies can deal with leadership. Also when is marines regrouping bad? Remember when marines regroup they can move up to 9 inches due to the FAQ (3 for the regroup and then 6 for there normal move). 

Armies that can have more then one unit stubborn: Space marines, take a special character and now the entire army is stubborn (some space marines players consider this a disadvantage). To be honest I consider the space marine special rule to be better then stubborn. Guard, Penal Legion, Commissars (who can go into lots of different squads and give you a re-roll just in case you fail), Lord Commissar, Ogryns.

See the sisters have nothing to fall back on. No Stubborn, No Fearless, No LD reroll, no regrouping bellow 50%. If they had one of these then there leadership wouldn't be bad but they have none of them. That's my point. You assume I'm angry cause sisters lost book. I'm not angry that we lost book, I'm angry that we lost book and got nothing to help out leadership.

You also don't use rhinos? Have you ever played a guard players who uses tanks? Have you played space marines players who uses vindicators? Enjoy your pie plates which will utterly destroy your squads. About nids they do suck "but wait if I'm smart I can win games with them." True assuming your opponent is using a cookie cutter list as you just said but what happens when you get to the competitive level where other players start being smart with there armies to, well then you begin to see your nids fall apart. Just in your previous post you were complaining on how you lost all your synapse by turn 2. As for that game that you won without using a single act of faith, where you just playing against orks? Cause I have beaten orks without using an act of faith, I got lucky but I still won. Yet when your facing space marines who are using powers weapons, you will be using those acts of faith.


----------



## TheKingElessar

In order to stay polite, I will have to ignore a lot of the posts since my last. 

However, I pretty much agree with everything Katie says here.

I see Celestians in the mould of Sternguard, and I think that you have overlooked the possibility of army-wide Def 'Nades to help a Sister out.

I don't remember off-hand, but was Warp Quake listed in Interceptor Squads' Bestiary page? Even if so, it's eminently possible that ALL SoB units get the regroup thing in addition to other abilities, it's just written poorly (although it isn't a Phil Kelly book, so unlikely) - and that Laud Hailers do what I said and grant a re-roll to Faith, or maybe even an Auto-Faith a turn.

Celestians getting Rending Ammo, or S5 Ammo, or Poison Ammo, or AP2 Ammo, or whatever is all possible.

As is, of course, the thing you're all overlooking - that, like all 5e armies bar Nids, they are designed as primarily a Mechanised force (welcome to 5th Edition) and will be using Firepoints to unleash the Emperor's Wrath - or more likely Immolator Turrets, from the relative safety of behind an AV11 wall of steel.


----------



## WallWeasels

TheKingElessar said:


> In order to stay polite, I will have to ignore a lot of the posts since my last.
> 
> However, I pretty much agree with everything Katie says here.
> 
> I see Celestians in the mould of Sternguard, and I think that you have overlooked the possibility of army-wide Def 'Nades to help a Sister out.
> 
> I don't remember off-hand, but was Warp Quake listed in Interceptor Squads' Bestiary page? Even if so, it's eminently possible that ALL SoB units get the regroup thing in addition to other abilities, it's just written poorly (although it isn't a Phil Kelly book, so unlikely) - and that Laud Hailers do what I said and grant a re-roll to Faith, or maybe even an Auto-Faith a turn.
> 
> Celestians getting Rending Ammo, or S5 Ammo, or Poison Ammo, or AP2 Ammo, or whatever is all possible.
> 
> As is, of course, the thing you're all overlooking - that, like all 5e armies bar Nids, they are designed as primarily a Mechanised force (welcome to 5th Edition) and will be using Firepoints to unleash the Emperor's Wrath - or more likely Immolator Turrets, from the relative safety of behind an AV11 wall of steel.


Note: 2 fire points. which means 80% of the rhinos squad is useless. Also note: Immolators no longer have a fire point and yeah...

Regardless not sure about warp quake but you are right for the most part on wargear. However, when it comes down to it unless battle sisters have comparable gear (or significantly lower cost than celestians) then I doubt a troops choice celestian will have as dramatically radical gear as sternguards ammo or warp quake.

[edit]From the sounds of it you seem to almost want sisters to just end up being razorback spam. Which, ultimately, they won't do better than any other force and most likely do it worse. Which means why bother? With most of the faith changes I can't seem to overly note anything we can do that someone else can't do equally, or better.


----------



## TheKingElessar

You DO realise that Tactical Squads don't give a shit that 80% of their unit can't fire, because only the guy with the MM/ML is actually taking part in the battle??

I said Immolator Turrets - you know, just like a Razorback functions, or a DAVU Wave Serpent. Guys deploy/move inside, tank does all the fighting, with a cheap Scoring Upgrade added, and a free bonus unit to do stuff if Gretchin wander within 14", or if the vehicle gets popped.

By 'behind' I mean 'inside the tank, and therefore behind the AV111 front and side plates that prevent them taking literally any damage and make their statline and abilities largely irrelevant'

Bear in mind, ye who disparages Ld9 without a bonus, that although your words have some merit - Ld9 prevents Pinning when your Transport gets asploded, a large majority of the time. That's all you really need, even though replacing the Book would've been great.


----------



## WallWeasels

TheKingElessar said:


> You DO realise that Tactical Squads don't give a shit that 80% of their unit can't fire, because only the guy with the MM/ML is actually taking part in the battle??
> 
> I said Immolator Turrets - you know, just like a Razorback functions, or a DAVU Wave Serpent. Guys deploy/move inside, tank does all the fighting, with a cheap Scoring Upgrade added, and a free bonus unit to do stuff if Gretchin wander within 14", or if the vehicle gets popped.
> 
> By 'behind' I mean 'inside the tank, and therefore behind the AV111 front and side plates that prevent them taking literally any damage and make their statline and abilities largely irrelevant'
> 
> Bear in mind, ye who disparages Ld9 without a bonus, that although your words have some merit - Ld9 prevents Pinning when your Transport gets asploded, a large majority of the time. That's all you really need, even though replacing the Book would've been great.


Which, largely speaking just implies "why play sisters because you'll just play like the rest, but not as equals"? If we play like razorback spam I'd rather play the armies that'll do it well.


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## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> Which, largely speaking just implies "why play sisters because you'll just play like the rest, but not as equals"? If we play like razorback spam I'd rather play the armies that'll do it well.


There's nothing to imply quite yet that Sisters won't do mech lists just as well as other armies.


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## TheKingElessar

Umm, most Marines would LOVE to get TL MM turrets on thier Razors, like you probably will be using in 15-17 slots at 2k if they're cheap enough.

5 Sisters with a HF, and an Immolator with a MM.

Plays like Xenos, looks like Marines. Best of both?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

TheKingElessar said:


> Umm, most Marines would LOVE to get TL MM turrets on thier Razors, like you probably will be using in 15-17 slots at 2k if they're cheap enough.
> 
> 5 Sisters with a HF, and an Immolator with a MM.
> 
> Plays like Xenos, looks like Marines. Best of both?


Fuck-an-A tweetie bird ... that is why my Thunder Guppy always has the TL MM on its lil pug nose ... 200 point rhino that has extra shit that can fire. Razorbacks with that set up?!? I would LOVE to have that on the field.


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## WallWeasels

TheKingElessar said:


> Umm, most Marines would LOVE to get TL MM turrets on thier Razors, like you probably will be using in 15-17 slots at 2k if they're cheap enough.
> 
> 5 Sisters with a HF, and an Immolator with a MM.
> 
> Plays like Xenos, looks like Marines. Best of both?


Yeah...plays like xenos...looks like marines...nothing like sisters :laugh:


----------



## TheKingElessar

At the minute, Sisters don't HAVE a unique place in playstyle.

At least, not a _truly _unique niche.

Fuck, they don't even truly have a Codex to call their own, they're more like guest stars that completely outshine the host...


----------



## WallWeasels

TheKingElessar said:


> At the minute, Sisters don't HAVE a unique place in playstyle.
> 
> At least, not a _truly _unique niche.
> 
> Fuck, they don't even truly have a Codex to call their own, they're more like guest stars that completely outshine the host...


And yet more unique in C:WH than they will be in a month or so time. C:WH was always secretly C:Sisters of battle. No amountof patheticly balanced and created inquisition units would change that. There is a reason why Daemon hunters was still commonly called "Grey knights" and why you would hear more witch hunter players say that they play Sisters, not witch hunters.


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## MadCowCrazy

Celestian stats are 4/4/3/3/1/3/2/9/3+ 6++
Celestian Superiors have the exact same stat. Is it just me or have they probably messed up the stats and it should be 1A and Ld8 for normal Celestians?
A Celestian Superior should have 3A base if they followed the normal rules for squads.
Are there any other units in 40k where the sergeant and members have the exact same stats?


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## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Are there any other units in 40k where the sergeant and members have the exact same stats?


Terminators, Veterans etc..


----------



## Grogbart

TheKingElessar said:


> Fuck, they don't even truly have a Codex to call their own, they're more like guest stars that completely outshine the host...


True, but is that the way you want the Sisters to be, or do you agree GW has treated them very badly?

Most of us seem to think GW did it again! Although we don't know what the second part will bring, the first part clearly laid out a general direction. Either screwed to a various degree, depending on wargear options or our former 2500 points armies will just be 1500 points armies in a month.

Faith (which at least some of us agree is the Sisters' main feature), has gone from hideously complicated but decisive to unreliably unreliable but hardly having any effect worth betting on! That's my opinion so far.

However, I want to try some of that optimism too:
Simulacrum Imperialis might be adding a Faith Point per turn to at least slightly even out Faith in higher point games.
The book might still be in, streamlined into granting Stubborn only to the bearers unit instead of bubbled and instead of auto-including the book with the canoess, they simply gave her Stubborn directly, as Stubborn is one of the few rules that automatically expands to joined units.
Possible or optimism overdose?

Off to lunch then, before I decide to let my pessimism run wild!:spiteful:


----------



## TheKingElessar

Oh, GW has sold them short in the past, no question. And this is hardly a step up, even though they rightfully become the headline act again.

Problem is, a LOT of players couldn't care less about Sisters - and by that, I mean the true GW target audience, the 12-20 cash cows. Most kids starting the game couldn't give two shits about martial arts nuns with guns when they have genetically engineered supersoldiers with useless genitals, instead of unused ones. Failing that, they ahve spiky supersoldiers, an army practically made up of tanks (although, as good players know, in 5e practically EVERY good army is made up of tanks...) or green alien monsters that can rip a man in half with their bare hands. On a 4+. If he has no armour save.

Sisters, like everyone else who has a current Codex, deserve better than a WD 'Dex' - but that doesn't mean they necessarily _deserve_ half the things SOME Sisters players tend to think.

And just because they won't function now the way you think they maybe should, doesn't mean they won't be competitive. If you quit Sisters because of it, and no-one really takes them up, they may never get a new proper Codex. Perhaps this is a way to test the water before dropping them for Legions, or Blood Ravens, or even Mechanicus - armies that would probably all sell more.

As for getting 'screwed' by having 2500 turn into 1500 overnight? Seriously? You NEED a huge drop in points across the board if you don't get some seriously great wargear.

Try the hardships of my Orks, who almost went to half as many points overnight, and in many respects (Burnas, for instance) got worse too - while all my lovingly converted Guntrukks had to have the Guns ripped off to make Big Gunz again, and the Trukks then got supplanted by a far better new model a couple months later anyway.

Or my beloved Eldar, where (iirc) 6 units' points costs changed.

Six. Out of about 28. We got one new unit, and it became a mono-build in days, that lasted until 5e came out, and we had a radically different list to build...although at least we had our greatest variety at that point...


----------



## andrewm9

TheKingElessar said:


> Oh, GW has sold them short in the past, no question. And this is hardly a step up, even though they rightfully become the headline act again.
> 
> Problem is, a LOT of players couldn't care less about Sisters - and by that, I mean the true GW target audience, the 12-20 cash cows. Most kids starting the game couldn't give two shits about martial arts nuns with guns when they have genetically engineered supersoldiers with useless genitals, instead of unused ones. Failing that, they ahve spiky supersoldiers, an army practically made up of tanks (although, as good players know, in 5e practically EVERY good army is made up of tanks...) or green alien monsters that can rip a man in half with their bare hands. On a 4+. If he has no armour save.
> 
> Sisters, like everyone else who has a current Codex, deserve better than a WD 'Dex' - but that doesn't mean they necessarily _deserve_ half the things SOME Sisters players tend to think.
> 
> And just because they won't function now the way you think they maybe should, doesn't mean they won't be competitive. If you quit Sisters because of it, and no-one really takes them up, they may never get a new proper Codex. Perhaps this is a way to test the water before dropping them for Legions, or Blood Ravens, or even Mechanicus - armies that would probably all sell more.
> 
> As for getting 'screwed' by having 2500 turn into 1500 overnight? Seriously? You NEED a huge drop in points across the board if you don't get some seriously great wargear.
> 
> Try the hardships of my Orks, who almost went to half as many points overnight, and in many respects (Burnas, for instance) got worse too - while all my lovingly converted Guntrukks had to have the Guns ripped off to make Big Gunz again, and the Trukks then got supplanted by a far better new model a couple months later anyway.
> 
> Or my beloved Eldar, where (iirc) 6 units' points costs changed.
> 
> Six. Out of about 28. We got one new unit, and it became a mono-build in days, that lasted until 5e came out, and we had a radically different list to build...although at least we had our greatest variety at that point...


Gw has shorted us again any why should get any less than what we had.

You say that about the number of Sisters players, but I have met 6 times the number of Sisters players than Grey Knights' one. Well that was true until they got a new codex out with lots of cool toys. Sure I haven't met any kids playing sisters but the number of players is still valid. Sisters don't sell well becuase there is nothing more to buy for those people who play. We've had 8 years to collect all our stuff and due to price and lack of support no one else is buying. if marines got that same kind of (lack of) support then no one woudl buy them either.

The problem with a huge points drop is the price tag. A unit of Retributors with 4 heavy weapons and a vet is $60.25 (5 models), Dominions with 4 special weapons and a vet is $41.85, 20 battle sisters with no special weapons of a vet is almost $91, and we haven't even gotten to the tanks yet. orks don't really compare to a huge increase in price as they had plastic troops already.

What do you think we deserve then? What do you think we don't deserve? Its not liek anyone has asked for a 2+ invuln save on a bunch of troops or anything as that would be over the top. We are asking for tools to accomplish the job with the fluff we have. The old faith system wasn't that awesome. It was good to be sure, but it wasn't broken. Lots of people think that sisters could always rend and have a 3+ invuln which isn't true but maybe once a game thanks to a 20 point piece of wargear. For a purely shooting army need something to last in assault if not necessarily win. 

Contrary to popular belief Sisters can win assaults with certain units in the current codex. It just requires a committed amount of resources to do so. My canoness and her retinue with a priest could rip up some units. It takes some skill too.

Orks are suffering no hardships with their current codex IMO, so i have no sympathy. No other army in the game can pump out 15 flamer templates from a single unit for as cheap as Orks do onto a unit as effectively. Lootas are awesome for an Elite choice too.

Eladr I can sympathize with, but they have some tricks for the unsuspecting opponent so they aren't helpless. They are an aging codex too so I get that.


----------



## Grogbart

TheKingElessar said:


> Problem is, a LOT of players couldn't care less about Sisters - and by that, I mean the true GW target audience, the 12-20 cash cows.


And THAT is supposed to be a valid reason for GW to annoy the little number of Sister-fans they actually have, by changing their codex into something most of them don't agree with? (Never will each and every single one of us, be completely satisfied by any given ruleset, that much is certain, too!) I mean, who is it they want to address with this WDex, anyway?

Now, I'm not a chief of statistics, but I suspect most Sisters players DO in fact care about Acts of Faith! And even though we pretty much all agreed, Faith would have to be changed (despite of we wanted it or not), the System we have seen so far, displeased pretty much every Sister-player here, with the exception of those, that don't care about faith. (I'm fine with people playing Sister without considering Faith at all, but stop preaching everyone else should do so, too!)



TheKingElessar said:


> As for getting 'screwed' by having 2500 turn into 1500 overnight? Seriously? You NEED a huge drop in points across the board if you don't get some seriously great wargear.


Granted, that was an exaggeration (hopefully!). But the point remains the same: anyone wanting to upgrade or start an army, is faced with buying hideously expensive blistered metal Sisters.



TheKingElessar said:


> Try the hardships of my Orks, who almost went to half as many points overnight, and in many respects (Burnas, for instance) got worse too - while all my lovingly converted Guntrukks had to have the Guns ripped off to make Big Gunz again, and the Trukks then got supplanted by a far better new model a couple months later anyway.
> 
> Or my beloved Eldar, where (iirc) 6 units' points costs changed.
> 
> Six. Out of about 28. We got one new unit, and it became a mono-build in days, that lasted until 5e came out, and we had a radically different list to build...although at least we had our greatest variety at that point...


Again, I don't disagree with you, that GW also screws around elsewhere.
But just because they did things wrong with other armies, is no reason to get it wrong with our's too!


----------



## Creon

I'm wondering why everyone assumes the book is gone. It's wargear, and will be in part 2, if it exists. The fluff almost always ignores wargear.


----------



## Numero-Uno

How long was it between the BA WD codex & them getting a real printed Codex btw? Just trying to get a picture of the time frame between WD codexs & "real" ones.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Numero-Uno said:


> How long was it between the BA WD codex & them getting a real printed Codex btw? Just trying to get a picture of the time frame between WD codexs & "real" ones.


I'm not sure, I've heard 2 numbers. One says 3 years, the other 6 months.
Either way I dont remember ever getting a WD with the Blood Angels rules and I've been a WD subscriber for 1.5 years now.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm not sure, I've heard 2 numbers. One says 3 years, the other 6 months.
> Either way I dont remember ever getting a WD with the Blood Angels rules and I've been a WD subscriber for 1.5 years now.


-snip-
[edit]lexicanum says WD:BA were released in 2007 so it is fair to say about 3 years.[/edit]

Regardless people need to stop considering that this WD won't last "long". It is poor for discussion and breeds the attitude that just because it is a WD codex means it has to be crap. Seriously this isn't a play test, this isn't "testing the waters" since GW REALLY doesn't do that. Blood Angels actually was a legimate "test" the waters WDdex because GW, before then, had a policy of "no rules in WD" and ended chapter approved content. Since then GW has warmed up to bringing in content and rules back to WD. sometimes WD codexs can be a temporary fix while they release the book but C:WH is at no immediate risk of being invalidiated by upcoming rules. 6th edition is an -entire- year away. This isn't like Warriors of Chaos were the Daemons release kind of made their codex redundant. GK doesn't make us redundant and they "already" removed allies in the online PDF so that was not an issue. 

Anyway...this ruleset is here to stay for awhile unless GW really shocks me by releasing it during christmas or early spring. But that still means dealing with it for several months.

Creon: Wargear could save the book, no one is denying that, so I fail to see what your point is. But people have a pretty good reason to be bias on the wargear section considering how poorly written most people consider the first half.


----------



## Numero-Uno

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm not sure, I've heard 2 numbers. One says 3 years, the other 6 months.
> Either way I dont remember ever getting a WD with the Blood Angels rules and I've been a WD subscriber for 1.5 years now.


Done some digging and it seems like it was afew years back... I'm just trying to see it from a GW business point of view. Why spend 2 WD's publishing/updating the Witch Hunters? Possibly they just want to test the water in relation to sales after this update, or maybe they have alot of old metal witch hunter stock to clear and this is the best way to do it. But still, why update them this way if they know they'll be releasing a new codex+plastics etc... next year?

Maybe they think they just needed an update real bad to hold em over or perhaps it was just a need to write some articles for 2 WD's as mere space filler.

Not sure what GW is trying to achieve by doing this update this way.

Edit: Read Wallweasles post after this was posted, must have both been typing our posts at the same time. 

My question still stands, why did GW do it this way?


----------



## WallWeasels

Numero-Uno said:


> Done some digging and it seems like it was afew years back... I'm just trying to see it from a GW business point of view. Why spend 2 WD's publishing/updating the Witch Hunters? Possibly they just want to test the water in relation to sales after this update, or maybe they have alot of old metal witch hunter stock to clear and this is the best way to do it. But still, why update them this way if they know they'll be releasing a new codex+plastics etc... next year?
> 
> Maybe they think they just needed an update real bad to hold em over or perhaps it was just a need to write some articles for 2 WD's as mere space filler.
> 
> Not sure what GW is trying to achieve by doing this update this way.


Testing the waters means nothing if they don't release any models for it. What? Do they really expect a WD update to rules to sell 45 dollar all metal kits in todays world of armies? Heck no. Its doomed to fail from the start. So unless they plan to release some finecast models (oh boy that'll be a price hike) then this WD won't be huge on the sales department. 
It is very confusing what GWs motives is but most likely? Just crack a few sales of WDs and bring up total subscriptions under the premise that WD might start containing more rules updates again I guess. Hell if I was told that chapter approved would be back they can have my money for more white dwarfs.

This edition said nothing about models. Maybe the next WD will contain some models? But where would the "HEY PRE-ORDER THIS" stuff be? Releasing a newsletter online? They'd put up pre-orders for models for an update of a codex...and yet there are none up so far. *shrugs* I could not really imagine releasing a white dwarf ruleset doesn't take less than maybe 30~40% of the time/money it takes to write up a codex for full. So I don't think this ruleset is purely to "fix" anything and more just a cheap cop-out "update" so they can call us 5th edition.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dark Heresy: Church of the Damned is out for those who are into that.
So is this the new Penitent Engine design? Kinda reminds me of that contemptor pre heresy dreadnought armour from forgeworld.


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm not sure, I've heard 2 numbers. One says 3 years, the other 6 months.
> Either way I dont remember ever getting a WD with the Blood Angels rules and I've been a WD subscriber for 1.5 years now.


3 years was for the blood angels, 6 months was for warriors of chaos (fantasy).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Numero-Uno said:


> Why spend 2 WD's publishing/updating the Witch Hunters?


Actually this is not an update to the WH codex, it's a replacement codex for it. Basically going back and updating the 2E Sisters of Battle codex.

Pg. 90
Chapter Approved
This official Codex for the Sisters of Battle, written by Robin Cruddace and Mat Ward, will be presented in two parts, and stands as a REPLACEMENT for the published Codex: Witch Hunters. You will only need these two issues of White Dwarf, the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and a collection of Sisters of Battle models to field an army.

Sigh... so now that we have to wait another month to find out if the dex is any good or not how are we to waste time fast and efficiently?
I guess I better go watch this movie as it's the only good movie this summer...


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Once again you seem to have miss the point. You seem to believe that ld9 is good without anything to back it up. Nids have synpase, Space marines have they shall know no fear, guards have commissar and stubborn, orks have mob rule and boss pole, Chaos and Daemons have lots of fearless unit. Space marines lose combat and get run down, wait they have they shall know no fear so now they are fearless which is better then getting run down. They also auto regroup and can regroup when below 50 percent. I'm not talking about book, I'm talking about 40k in general. Every 5th edition army (and some 4th edition armies) has a way to back up there leadership, sisters of battle no longer do. They have no rerolls, no stubborn, no fearless. Unless you want to say acts of faith but we shouldn't rely on them and not all units can use them to regroup, not to mention you can also easily fail the act of faith. Your whole argument is about the book was to good. Forget the book, just look how other armies can deal with leadership. Also when is marines regrouping bad? Remember when marines regroup they can move up to 9 inches due to the FAQ (3 for the regroup and then 6 for there normal move).
> 
> Armies that can have more then one unit stubborn: Space marines, take a special character and now the entire army is stubborn (some space marines players consider this a disadvantage). To be honest I consider the space marine special rule to be better then stubborn. Guard, Penal Legion, Commissars (who can go into lots of different squads and give you a re-roll just in case you fail), Lord Commissar, Ogryns.
> 
> See the sisters have nothing to fall back on. No Stubborn, No Fearless, No LD reroll, no regrouping bellow 50%. If they had one of these then there leadership wouldn't be bad but they have none of them. That's my point. You assume I'm angry cause sisters lost book. I'm not angry that we lost book, I'm angry that we lost book and got nothing to help out leadership.
> 
> You also don't use rhinos? Have you ever played a guard players who uses tanks? Have you played space marines players who uses vindicators? Enjoy your pie plates which will utterly destroy your squads. About nids they do suck "but wait if I'm smart I can win games with them." True assuming your opponent is using a cookie cutter list as you just said but what happens when you get to the competitive level where other players start being smart with there armies to, well then you begin to see your nids fall apart. Just in your previous post you were complaining on how you lost all your synapse by turn 2. As for that game that you won without using a single act of faith, where you just playing against orks? Cause I have beaten orks without using an act of faith, I got lucky but I still won. Yet when your facing space marines who are using powers weapons, you will be using those acts of faith.


Wow, not only are you making a LOT of assumptions given we haven't seen the Wargear section yet, you also seem to be willfully misreading my comments, my discussions of style of play, and quite frankly insinuating I know nothing of 40K, am crap at playing and am - in some instances - outright lying. If you are going to use something I said in a previous post, please get both the context and content right (re. Turn 2 synapse loss, for a start). 

Apologies to everyone else for the slight off-topicness here, but this was straying dangerously close to personal. Given how I get about 20minutes of online time a day if I'm lucky, I'd rather not spend it correcting misreading and defending against insinuation. Necrosis, we can continue this privately if you really want.

God, sometimes I hate forums. 
/sleep-deprived bitching mode


----------



## SilverTabby

Creon said:


> I'm wondering why everyone assumes the book is gone. It's wargear, and will be in part 2, if it exists. The fluff almost always ignores wargear.


You can learn more from watching someones reactions than by outright asking questions in a game. When your opponent's reaction to an item of wargear in every squad is a wince, followed by "I'm sorry, it does what now?", when they've been helping playtest the new list for the last few months, then it's a fairly safe bet that said item was either cut out or nerfed...


----------



## andrewm9

SilverTabby said:


> You can learn more from watching someones reactions than by outright asking questions in a game. When your opponent's reaction to an item of wargear in every squad is a wince, followed by "I'm sorry, it does what now?", when they've been helping playtest the new list for the last few months, then it's a fairly safe bet that said item was either cut out or nerfed...


Thats kind of like saying that Space Marine special character is broken too since he allows space marines of all stripes to exchange combat tactics for stubborn. They don't even lose it if he dies. Nobody says he is broken but one little book whose benefit goes away after the model dies and everyone is all up in arms. Thats ridiculous.


----------



## WallWeasels

andrewm9 said:


> Thats kind of like saying that Space Marine special character is broken too since he allows space marines of all stripes to exchange combat tactics for stubborn. They don't even lose it if he dies. Nobody says he is broken but one little book whose benefit goes away after the model dies and everyone is all up in arms. Thats ridiculous.


or psychic powers that literally "remove from play" your units
or base infantry with power weapons at I6
or army of entirely fast vehicles
or squadrens of AV14 tanks
or the many other extremely silly rules that pop up in 40k that make you double take :laugh: Hell the effect is exactly the same as the Commisar although it is obvious why the comparison isn't 100% strong. One is a 5 point upgrade and one a...what? 80 point HQ? But functionally "aoe leadership aura" and "functionally stubborn" are not exactly unknown in 40k. It, even for the time, didn't just magically make some new rule out of no where. At the time guard had the 12" leadership command bubble and stubborns always been around. 


Also Tabby do you honestly expect GW to have elaborately play-tested this? Yet somehow let so many spelling mistakes and even that stupid "sister with heavy bolter" that happens to be carrying a multi-melta in there? How many people noticed this the FIRST time they looked over the scans? Since I did :x Can't imagine to many people not seeing it if they gave it a good read over on the first viewing.


----------



## Katie Drake

andrewm9 said:


> Thats kind of like saying that Space Marine special character is broken too since he allows space marines of all stripes to exchange combat tactics for stubborn. They don't even lose it if he dies. Nobody says he is broken but one little book whose benefit goes away after the model dies and everyone is all up in arms. Thats ridiculous.


It's not even close to the same thing.

The Book costs 5 points, spreads to units within 6" of the bearer and can be turned off at will. Pedro or Lysander make all Marine units Stubborn which can be a massive disadvantage and cannot be switched off at any point, so your units can easily become stuck in fights that they cannot win, even when you'd really much prefer that they fall back and go back to doing something they're good at (like shooting). Yes, the Book's ability goes away if the bearer dies, but since it costs almost nothing and can be taken in essentially every squad in the army it's very easy to have a Bookless unit in range of another unit with a Book, so it works out just fine. Marine squads may not pay more points for Chapter Tactics, but the cost of the Chapter Tactic ability is included in the cost of the character who grants it.


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> It's not even close to the same thing.
> 
> The Book costs 5 points, spreads to units within 6" of the bearer and can be turned off at will. Pedro or Lysander make all Marine units Stubborn which can be a massive disadvantage and cannot be switched off at any point, so your units can easily become stuck in fights that they cannot win, even when you'd really much prefer that they fall back and go back to doing something they're good at (like shooting). Yes, the Book's ability goes away if the bearer dies, but since it costs almost nothing and can be taken in essentially every squad in the army it's very easy to have a Bookless unit in range of another unit with a Book, so it works out just fine. Marine squads may not pay more points for Chapter Tactics, but the cost of the Chapter Tactic ability is included in the cost of the character who grants it.


We can keep arguing this till 6th edition comes out. So lets all just agree this was a rush codex, that was not play tested (or not well played tested) or proof read. I'm not saying it's a bad codex here (although I have previously said that), I'm just saying GW didn't give it much attention. Cause I think everyone here is getting tried of arguing this.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> It's not even close to the same thing.
> 
> The Book costs 5 points, spreads to units within 6" of the bearer and can be turned off at will. Pedro or Lysander make all Marine units Stubborn which can be a massive disadvantage and cannot be switched off at any point, so your units can easily become stuck in fights that they cannot win, even when you'd really much prefer that they fall back and go back to doing something they're good at (like shooting). Yes, the Book's ability goes away if the bearer dies, but since it costs almost nothing and can be taken in essentially every squad in the army it's very easy to have a Bookless unit in range of another unit with a Book, so it works out just fine. Marine squads may not pay more points for Chapter Tactics, but the cost of the Chapter Tactic ability is included in the cost of the character who grants it.


Although this actually kind of goes against my own argument: remember that the BosL uses the fun word "may". Unlike stubborn which is "always" and provides no choice like you raised above. However that, if widely considered to be broken as hell, is just a simple matter of balancing said function. The issue being, people don't think the book will survive in a remotely similar form purely because the Canoness, the one who gave the most benefit being the only LD10 model on the field, is automatically stubborn. So it seems weird that GW would give a "book that gives effective stubborn" to a model that already has it. It may purely be in just as a "gives people around you your leadership".

Anyway it isn't the best comparison but his point that similar effects exist, which in addendum is also my point above, is still mostly true. Personally it is why I think people are also bothered. What we wanted was small changes here and there to make units better and maybe some new stuff as codexes always tend to make new units/weapons up. 
Of course that is mostly what everyone wants, but for the most part redesigns tend not to go to far off the army style or idea. especially surprising since if you try to consider what the inquisition units could do (even if they did it crappy) then what replaced their functions? etc, blah blah, etc. 
Do you personally feel sisters were broken because of their leadership staying power? I don't think I have met anyone who outright said so to me >_>; I have had people go "ooo thats annoying" but I think I have, over time, heard more "ooo thats annoying/cool" from SotM than BosL


Necrosis: damn it I forgot to check if people posted during my time writing this  I agree and I don't think many will claim this wasn't a rushed job. Which I accept as a good reason for my own feelings of disappointment in the content. I do not, personally, think WD releases have to be natively bad...while most just use that as a fallback ("what did you expect? its just a white dwarf release" blah blah). Nor is it okay to release bad rules or justify them by having its replacement soon to come. Notice videogames that do this? They release a halfassed or broken game and fix it later on? Yeah not many manage to live long enough to have a working population by the time its fixed (talking to you Brink!). I wouldn't expect many players who have two armies or more to be playing C:SoB for long if they have another option to play with :/*

*: if the wargear doesn't rock our socks off somehow.


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> Do you personally feel sisters were broken because of their leadership staying power? I don't think I have met anyone who outright said so to me >_>; I have had people go "ooo thats annoying" but I think I have, over time, heard more "ooo thats annoying/cool" from SotM than BosL


Broken? No, I don't think that Sisters were overpowered due to the Book. I do believe that the Book in its current form is a crutch and is a no brainer choice due to its cost which is bad games design and therefore bad for the army as a whole.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> Broken? No, I don't think that Sisters were overpowered due to the Book. I do believe that the Book in its current form is a crutch and is a no brainer choice due to its cost which is bad games design and therefore bad for the army as a whole.


I would entirely agree on the premise of no-brainers being lame for game design. But I would prefer having a crutch when I needed it than having no replacement for it when I do


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> I would entirely agree on the premise of no-brainers being lame for game design. But I would prefer having a crutch when I needed it than having no replacement for it when I do


Well sure, who wouldn't like having a 5 point item that bails them out of trouble? I just think that Sisters players should instead have to rely on player skill to avoid those sticky situations.


----------



## TheKingElessar

andrewm9 said:


> Gw has shorted us again any why should get any less than what we had.
> 
> You say that about the number of Sisters players, but I have met 6 times the number of Sisters players than Grey Knights' one. Well that was true until they got a new codex out with lots of cool toys. Sure I haven't met any kids playing sisters but the number of players is still valid. Sisters don't sell well becuase there is nothing more to buy for those people who play. We've had 8 years to collect all our stuff and due to price and lack of support no one else is buying. if marines got that same kind of (lack of) support then no one woudl buy them either.
> 
> The problem with a huge points drop is the price tag. A unit of Retributors with 4 heavy weapons and a vet is $60.25 (5 models), Dominions with 4 special weapons and a vet is $41.85, 20 battle sisters with no special weapons of a vet is almost $91, and we haven't even gotten to the tanks yet. orks don't really compare to a huge increase in price as they had plastic troops already.
> 
> What do you think we deserve then? What do you think we don't deserve? Its not liek anyone has asked for a 2+ invuln save on a bunch of troops or anything as that would be over the top. We are asking for tools to accomplish the job with the fluff we have. The old faith system wasn't that awesome. It was good to be sure, but it wasn't broken. Lots of people think that sisters could always rend and have a 3+ invuln which isn't true but maybe once a game thanks to a 20 point piece of wargear. For a purely shooting army need something to last in assault if not necessarily win.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief Sisters can win assaults with certain units in the current codex. It just requires a committed amount of resources to do so. My canoness and her retinue with a priest could rip up some units. It takes some skill too.
> 
> Orks are suffering no hardships with their current codex IMO, so i have no sympathy. No other army in the game can pump out 15 flamer templates from a single unit for as cheap as Orks do onto a unit as effectively. Lootas are awesome for an Elite choice too.
> 
> Eladr I can sympathize with, but they have some tricks for the unsuspecting opponent so they aren't helpless. They are an aging codex too so I get that.


If Spess Mehreens got the same level of support as Sisters, then GW would have ceased trading years ago...
Sisters are largely unpopular because the range isn't plastic - no doubt! But it's hardly the only reason.
Orks had a huge price increase when you suddenly had to get the new Bikes to replace your old shit, new Trukks too. Buying a couple AoBR boxes just for Deff Koptas isn't ideal - and Burna Boyz are shit because Burnas no longer get 2d6 Penetration, and they compete with Lootas - the ONLY good ranged unit the Orks get. Orks, in general, are shit and perform well against only good players or unlucky ones.

No hardships in their Codex is a hilarious fallacy.

Of course Sisters could win combats if they threw enough bodies at it. Doesn't matter, that's not how they should be fighting.


Grogbart said:


> And THAT is supposed to be a valid reason for GW to annoy the little number of Sister-fans they actually have, by changing their codex into something most of them don't agree with? (Never will each and every single one of us, be completely satisfied by any given ruleset, that much is certain, too!) I mean, who is it they want to address with this WDex, anyway?
> 
> Now, I'm not a chief of statistics, but I suspect most Sisters players DO in fact care about Acts of Faith! And even though we pretty much all agreed, Faith would have to be changed (despite of we wanted it or not), the System we have seen so far, displeased pretty much every Sister-player here, with the exception of those, that don't care about faith. (I'm fine with people playing Sister without considering Faith at all, but stop preaching everyone else should do so, too!)
> 
> Granted, that was an exaggeration (hopefully!). But the point remains the same: anyone wanting to upgrade or start an army, is faced with buying hideously expensive blistered metal Sisters.
> 
> Again, I don't disagree with you, that GW also screws around elsewhere.
> But just because they did things wrong with other armies, is no reason to get it wrong with our's too!


On the contrary - when GW screws some armies, it's only FAIR they screw the others.

Buying the metal ones is HORRIBLY expensive, no argument - but since they are no longer sold in GWS, that isn't even a real option. In fact, I don't think they're even on the Website anymore.

As for the fluff - nonsense argument, it changes all the time, often arbitrarily. GW will TELL you what way the army you collect are meant to play, based on whoever is in the Design Team's views at the time...and the money-men's input.

You don't get the option of rejecting fluff because it's new and distasteful - you think Wolves players took kindly to the bullshit of Huron Crapheart turning some of their Chapter from the Light of the Allfather to the Dark Side?

Remember the furore over the Silent King allying with Dante??

Fluff evolves and changes over time - things you like today can be retconned out tomorrow with no warning. It will always rest with GW what way armies are 'supposed' to function.

At the end of the day, the Codex will probably be competitive, even if a vocal number of Sisters players dislike the end product.

So fuck?

GW will still sell the army - or they won't, and they'll drop them from the range. No printed Codex, no expensive playtesting phase, no expensive entire new range? GW wins either way.

Either you buy Sisters, or GW Squats them.

Not liking this or thinking it's fair (it isn't) is irrelevant.

I, for one, hope they stick around long enough for me to buy into the army...but then the 6e rumours that won't go away may see that kill my love for the game, and save me several grand. Who knows?


----------



## Souba

i seriously start to wonder how people come to the idea that stubborn on the canoness may be a indicator for losing the book of st lucius. have you ever looked into the witch hunter book what a inquisitor lord grants for his unit ? iron will is by far better than stubborn or the book of st lucius, still the book was in. sure he wasnt the choice but the canoness aint either right now if you look at uriah for example.


----------



## Necrosis

Souba said:


> i seriously start to wonder how people come to the idea that stubborn on the canoness may be a indicator for losing the book of st lucius. have you ever looked into the witch hunter book what a inquisitor lord grants for his unit ? iron will is by far better than stubborn or the book of st lucius, still the book was in. sure he wasnt the choice but the canoness aint either right now if you look at uriah for example.


Uriah is also stubborn.


----------



## mahavira

I think people who are expecting a huge price drop pointswise are likely to be disappointed. Consider Guard Veterans: 7 points base with flak armor, lasgun, frag and krak grenades, and lower leadership. They can have carapace armor for another 3 points (or melta bombs, or defensive grenades and camo cloaks). Battle sisters have improved leadership, 2 points better armor, a weapon with higher strength AND ap, and bolt pistols, not to mention a 6+ invulnerable save and an act of faith.

Guard vets have limited access to orders (only from company command squad), but up to 3 special weapons and the ability to take a heavy weapon squad.

I just can't see a base battle sister at less than 11 points. Dominions will have to be more than that due to gaining scout and a superior act of faith. I have difficulty thinking Celestians will be less than their current cost. Seraphim, who knows, they've changed rather a lot and were outrageously expensive before.

Vehicles should go down in price, but I wouldn't count on the infantry units doing so.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> I think people who are expecting a huge price drop pointswise are likely to be disappointed. Consider Guard Veterans: 7 points base with flak armor, lasgun, frag and krak grenades, and lower leadership. They can have carapace armor for another 3 points (or melta bombs, or defensive grenades and camo cloaks). Battle sisters have improved leadership, 2 points better armor, a weapon with higher strength AND ap, and bolt pistols, not to mention a 6+ invulnerable save and an act of faith.
> 
> Guard vets have limited access to orders (only from company command squad), but up to 3 special weapons and the ability to take a heavy weapon squad.


This is a common mistake people make. Veteran guardsmen are 6 points each. Remember you are paying 10 points for the Sargent (unless your grey knights). So the squad which cost 70 points - 10 points for the Sargent and then divided by 10 equals 6 points per model.


----------



## Souba

Necrosis said:


> Uriah is also stubborn.


as well as both of the possible lord inquisitors.


----------



## WallWeasels

Souba said:


> as well as both of the possible lord inquisitors.


Im sorry...who? I don't know what this "Lord Inquisitors" are. Who are they and why are you talking about them in C: Sisters of Battle? :laugh:

Seriously though, there is no Inquisitors in the Bestiary. Do you mean the Confessor/Preacher? Since they are not stubborn, Celestine is fearless and Kryinov is fearless (+fearless aura). The reason why, I personally, beleive the book is "gone" in terms of giving stubborn+ is the fearless aura on Kryinov, and Stubborn on two base HQ models who are meant to join units. Which is a lot more than just the previous C:WH having two Inquisitors (one who couldn't even join any unit of sisters, not that you'd want him too) who had the option to choose to pass/fail. Oh also The Toilet of Justice had a fearless aura (or was it reroll leadership? can't remember of the top of my head.). So there are more "fearless/stubborn" base options in this new book.

So if book still exists its just going to convey the leadership of the holder to someone nearby. Which, well, is kind of only useful on the LD10 models, which are all HQs, or possibly elites if confessors are elite.


----------



## Grogbart

mahavira said:


> I think people who are expecting a huge price drop pointswise are likely to be disappointed. Consider Guard Veterans: 7 points base with flak armor, lasgun, frag and krak grenades, and lower leadership. They can have carapace armor for another 3 points (or melta bombs, or defensive grenades and camo cloaks). Battle sisters have improved leadership, 2 points better armor, a weapon with higher strength AND ap, and bolt pistols, not to mention a 6+ invulnerable save and an act of faith.
> 
> Guard vets have limited access to orders (only from company command squad), but up to 3 special weapons and the ability to take a heavy weapon squad.
> 
> I just can't see a base battle sister at less than 11 points. Dominions will have to be more than that due to gaining scout and a superior act of faith. I have difficulty thinking Celestians will be less than their current cost. Seraphim, who knows, they've changed rather a lot and were outrageously expensive before.
> 
> Vehicles should go down in price, but I wouldn't count on the infantry units doing so.


I wouldn't even try, making sense of point costs in relation to each other!
Looking at the GK Codex the closest to a Sister would be 15 points for a Warrior Acolyte with boltgun an power armour. For the same guy you could also take a storm shield for +20 points, but on the very same page there is also the Crusader, model + storm shield + power weapon for 15 points.
So point cost consistency is another one of GWs not-so-strong-points! 



TheKingElessar said:


> On the contrary - when GW screws some armies, it's only FAIR they screw the others.
> 
> Buying the metal ones is HORRIBLY expensive, no argument - but since they are no longer sold in GWS, that isn't even a real option. In fact, I don't think they're even on the Website anymore.
> 
> As for the fluff - nonsense argument, it changes all the time, often arbitrarily. GW will TELL you what way the army you collect are meant to play, based on whoever is in the Design Team's views at the time...and the money-men's input.
> 
> You don't get the option of rejecting fluff because it's new and distasteful - you think Wolves players took kindly to the bullshit of Huron Crapheart turning some of their Chapter from the Light of the Allfather to the Dark Side?
> 
> Remember the furore over the Silent King allying with Dante??
> 
> Fluff evolves and changes over time - things you like today can be retconned out tomorrow with no warning. It will always rest with GW what way armies are 'supposed' to function.
> 
> At the end of the day, the Codex will probably be competitive, even if a vocal number of Sisters players dislike the end product.
> 
> So fuck?
> 
> GW will still sell the army - or they won't, and they'll drop them from the range. No printed Codex, no expensive playtesting phase, no expensive entire new range? GW wins either way.
> 
> Either you buy Sisters, or GW Squats them.
> 
> Not liking this or thinking it's fair (it isn't) is irrelevant.
> 
> I, for one, hope they stick around long enough for me to buy into the army...but then the 6e rumours that won't go away may see that kill my love for the game, and save me several grand. Who knows?


Sorry if my English is letting me down here, but where the hell did I mention fluff? 
I can only assume you misread faith for fluff, in which case I hope I don't insult you, by labeling that part of your argument as 'beside the point' and ignore it.

Of course I would also like the Sisters to stick around, but there is some point in messing around with the Sisters, I have to say that's no longer Sisters to me and that's when I quit 40K! For me, that point isn't reached so far, but at the same time I don't feel, GW is even trying to get the Sister away from it.
For Sister to sell, the opinion of those interested in buying Sisters is important, not that of the overall majority of GW customers. I may only speak for myself here, but competitiveness wasn't the reason I started the Sisters.

Furthermore, with this whole 'Sisters unpopular -> no plastics/ no plastics -> Sisters unpopular' circle, GW seems to actively avoid clearing up what's cause and what is effect in this matter, like they are actively afraid Sisters might turn out to be popular.

So while for me, this first part of the WDex is moving the Sisters only a little toward the point I quit. The fact GW has jet again, let slip past a opportunity to give the Sister a real fighting chance, is actually moving the point I quit, a long way towards where the Sisters currently stand!

Should GW then dare, to justify squatting the Sisters of Battle on the basis of unpopularity due to lack of sales after the WDex, they're dead to me.

Maybe thats their plan all along, squat the least popular army every year, until only Space Marines remain. If they are still selling well, by that time, then the 40K community wasn't the thing for me anyway!

PS: Calling something fair at the beginning of your argument and stating fairness to be irrelevant in the end isn't helpful when trying to take your argument seriously!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Fluff = what you think Sisters should be. Eg - having only the Trinity of weapons etc.

The 'fairness' comments are unrelated - you stated Sisters shouldn't be screwed just because others were - I disagree, as screwing everyone equally is the only fair way to proceed.

The second comment is that GW will do what they want whether or not the Community sees it as wise or fair. It _wouldn't _be fair for GW to Squat SoBs because of low sales when they have done so little to help the issue - but that (the fairness) has no bearing on whether or not it will happen, and is thus irrelevant.


----------



## Shandathe

If we were screwed equally, we'd find the number of units in our army list at least doubled.


----------



## Grogbart

TheKingElessar said:


> Fluff = what you think Sisters should be. Eg - having only the Trinity of weapons etc.


Pardon me then, I always thought 'fluff' was just the story-background upon which an army's rules are based. Nonetheless I don't see any relation to my former post?



TheKingElessar said:


> The 'fairness' comments are unrelated - you stated Sisters shouldn't be screwed just because others were - I disagree, as screwing everyone equally is the only fair way to proceed.


So army C, should be screwed because A and B got screwed,
A should be screwed because B and C got screwed, and so on... just to be fair!
It might be a far fetched idea, but how about trying to get it right for everyone? That would be fair, too!



TheKingElessar said:


> The second comment is that GW will do what they want whether or not the Community sees it as wise or fair. It _wouldn't _be fair for GW to Squat SoBs because of low sales when they have done so little to help the issue - but that (the fairness) has no bearing on whether or not it will happen, and is thus irrelevant.


You're right here. GW can do what they want, but only to a certain degree. If they were to change things as drastically as to scare off the whole community, they'd be left with no customers!

The day may come, when we have to see, GW can no longer satisfy the gamers needs, but it is not this day! An hour of raped fluff and silly rules, but it is not this day! This day, we just hope GW will get it right eventually.
(Sorry, got inspired by your Avatar:biggrin

Let's just hope GW will do a decent job, with 6th Ed rules and a (hopefully coming) Sisters of Battle Codex.


----------



## Tanarri

As someone who has been waiting a long time to collect sisters the thing that is stopping me is that the entire range is metal models. There are really 2 reasons but they both equate to it being metal models. While sometimes the metal models look cool, occasionally I will pick metal over plastic because they look that much cooler, I hate working with metal models. Second and most importantly its too expensive to start a sisters army but that is because the whole range is metal. Unless GW comes out with plastic models, or somehow finecast works out to be less like it did for ushabti for the tomb kings in fantasy, the only way i will be starting a sisters army is if someone dumps theirs on ebay for cheap.


----------



## Numero-Uno

Tanarri said:


> As someone who has been waiting a long time to collect sisters the thing that is stopping me is that the entire range is metal models. There are really 2 reasons but they both equate to it being metal models. While sometimes the metal models look cool, occasionally I will pick metal over plastic because they look that much cooler, I hate working with metal models. Second and most importantly its too expensive to start a sisters army but that is because the whole range is metal. Unless GW comes out with plastic models, or somehow finecast works out to be less like it did for ushabti for the tomb kings in fantasy, the only way i will be starting a sisters army is if someone dumps theirs on ebay for cheap.


Hey Tanarri, Yeah I've also been waiting some time now to start them & was hoping this WD codex would have meant those rumoured new plastic sisters were on their way. It's looking like it might be another year before that happens now. Still, I'm thinking that's plenty of time to start gathering up a small force of SoB, even if they are all metal. I plan to just buy a blister at a time & give them a real good paint job and watch them grow slowly. I think it'll be more cost effective that way & pleasing with the final result. Looking forward to grabbing my copy of WD tomorrow! :grin:


----------



## Tanarri

Numero-Uno said:


> Hey Tanarri, Yeah I've also been waiting some time now to start them & was hoping this WD codex would have meant those rumoured new plastic sisters were on their way. It's looking like it might be another year before that happens now. Still, I'm thinking that's plenty of time to start gathering up a small force of SoB, even if they are all metal. I plan to just buy a blister at a time & give them a real good paint job and watch them grow slowly. I think it'll be more cost effective that way & pleasing with the final result. Looking forward to grabbing my copy of WD tomorrow! :grin:


I thought about that. I might do it; I am a really slow painter so that might be the best thing for me.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Actually, I hope 6th is at least 18 months away. I find it disgraceful that they would even contemplate (not that it has been confirmed) releasing ANOTHER new Edition of the game without having all the Codexes caught up to the CURRENT Edition.

FFS, it's barely over half.


----------



## Tanarri

Does anyone else think that with Vampires getting a rules update in WD and a few models that when the second part of the sisters update comes out that there will be plastic sisters models released too?


----------



## WallWeasels

Tanarri said:


> Does anyone else think that with Vampires getting a rules update in WD and a few models that when the second part of the sisters update comes out that there will be plastic sisters models released too?


Doubtful. We have pictures of armies on the table that the same models as now. If anything they MIGHT be fine-cast...but nothing at all mentioned along those lines so far.


----------



## lemage

WallWeasels said:


> Doubtful. We have pictures of armies on the table that the same models as now. If anything they MIGHT be fine-cast...but nothing at all mentioned along those lines so far.


i would seriously doubt them getting new fine cast, if there not getting a codex , there not getting new models.


----------



## WallWeasels

lemage said:


> i would seriously doubt them getting new fine cast, if there not getting a codex , there not getting new models.


Oh indeed I doubt it as well. Although it begs the question of "why make the rules?" This doesn't specifically fix any problems that come up and I doubt this is to give this book function in 6th edition either. *shrugs* Doubt we'll ever find out either.


----------



## Necrosis

WallWeasels said:


> Oh indeed I doubt it as well. Although it begs the question of "why make the rules?" This doesn't specifically fix any problems that come up and I doubt this is to give this book function in 6th edition either. *shrugs* Doubt we'll ever find out either.


The rules were made to eliminate conflict between witch hunter codex and the Grey Knights. Right now there are lots of duplicate units that have different stats and rules such as:

Inquisitors, Crusaders, Death Cults, Acolytes/warriors, Arcos, Rhinos, Chimeras, Land Raider.

Not also to mention the witch hunter codex directly contradicts the Grey Knight one.


----------



## WallWeasels

Necrosis said:


> The rules were made to eliminate conflict between witch hunter codex and the Grey Knights. Right now there are lots of duplicate units that have different stats and rules such as:
> 
> Inquisitors, Crusaders, Death Cults, Acolytes/warriors, Arcos, Rhinos, Chimeras, Land Raider.
> 
> Not also to mention the witch hunter codex directly contradicts the Grey Knight one.


As if thats uncommon between Codexs or GWs history of releases >_>;


----------



## Shandathe

The problem is that they've decided to (pretend to) put in effort rather than just say 'Yeah, these units are gone and so is the Allies rule. In compensation, have this 35 point Rhino with two fire points'.

Which was really all that would've been needed to hold us over for another year, and I don't think anyone would've complained about it much.

EDIT: Or AS much, anyway.


----------



## SilverTabby

WallWeasels said:


> Also Tabby do you honestly expect GW to have elaborately play-tested this? Yet somehow let so many spelling mistakes and even that stupid "sister with heavy bolter" that happens to be carrying a multi-melta in there? How many people noticed this the FIRST time they looked over the scans? Since I did :x Can't imagine to many people not seeing it if they gave it a good read over on the first viewing


Let me explain, from firsthand experience, why spelling mistakes don't equate to no playtesting. 
Games Dev write the list. It goes through multiple versions, often getting tested by anyone else in the Studio who also has that army. Its a shame Andy isn't there any more, as he was the writer with a huge Sisters force. Once it has been tested for a few months (or however long management allows) the list (which is stats and fluff) goes to Repro to be written and laid out prettily, and have photos added. That is all checked internally, and not always by people who play, let alone play that army. Games Dev are lucky if they see a final high-def scan before its sent to print. It's the same as in 'Eavy Metal, it took years of complaining and bitching to get to see scans (even low def ones) of colour sections before they went to print, so that stupid mistakes and bad colour-balancing could be pointed out and corrected. Even then, the corrections suggested were often ignored as it was "too close to deadline". 

Bad practice? Absolutely. Result of horribly tight deadlines imposed by management? Absolutely. The writers fault? Nope...


----------



## TheSpore

after reading this first half ass dex it doesnt seem that bad and would appear that they are just seeing where to take the army , its seems that the dex will work as adecent stand in for the old one and it seems they put some good thought in it, but upsets me is that they ut this dex and its not really mentioned on the cover nor is featured as being there really in any way at all.Basically I take it as hey check all these cool new daemonsand vampire stuff we are puttin out and yeah look at the coule of cool DE models and oh theres a SoBs dex in back you know nothing real secial just some shit slapped together for the fuck of it all


----------



## SilverTabby

TheSpore said:


> after reading this first half ass dex it doesnt seem that bad and would appear that they are just seeing where to take the army , its seems that the dex will work as adecent stand in for the old one and it seems they put some good thought in it, but upsets me is that they ut this dex and its not really mentioned on the cover nor is featured as being there really in any way at all.Basically I take it as hey check all these cool new daemonsand vampire stuff we are puttin out and yeah look at the coule of cool DE models and oh theres a SoBs dex in back you know nothing real secial just some shit slapped together for the fuck of it all


There's a big black and white banner announcement that the SoB Codex is in this WD, just above the bit on the front cover where it says "White Dwarf". If that's not mentioning it on the cover, I don't know what is... :wink:


----------



## hells

SilverTabby said:


> There's a big black and white banner announcement that the SoB Codex is in this WD, just above the bit on the front cover where it says "White Dwarf". If that's not mentioning it on the cover, I don't know what is... :wink:


i think he means its barely mentioned X3 youd think releasing half a new codex for an army would be more important then a few new models for the vampire peoples, then again as the guy at the local store they advertise the stuff they expect to sell on the front cover/front of the magazine.


spending more time reading through all the rules and stats i can say if anything the faith is most dissapointing, its nothing special really, doesnt stand out as anything special as id like it to be, that and bieng unable to use in the other players turn feels kinda pointless. 

living saint, she seems like pure filth with how much damage she can sow, 5 attacks base I and WS 7 and the fact you kill her shell just get back up charge another squad and hack them to death seems so strong, i know what ill be rolling as my HQ from now on >:3 now to hope penitent engines get a lot cheaper and are elites so i can field heaps of them with exorcists ;3


EDIT: forgot to add, at the local club today it was suggested to use the new rules with old costs/wargear to get a feel for what itll be like, i didnt do so since i wanted a decent chance at the campaign match i was playing (ended horribly, tourney style nid list that could outshoot and out cc me, lossing all my penitent engines straight up wasnt good either ><) so next week ill give it a try, maybe some others can try it see how they play outs


----------



## SilverTabby

So what you're saying is the banner on the front cover isn't _big_ enough? 

The dragons are going to sell more. It's a new plastic kit, and people love dragons. Fact of life, I'm afraid. But the fact also remains that it _was_ advertised on the front cover, in big black letters, in a spot where the artwork won't hide or obscure it. You can't say that isn't advertising it's presence, or 'barely mentioning' it.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I actually agree - diluting it's importance by making it second fiddle to "OFFICIAL VAMPIRE COUNTS UPDATE INSIDE!!!!!!!" is a clear indication of their opinion of the Sisters' profitability.

As is the lack of model support.


----------



## Shandathe

And of course, the second half plays second fiddle to the new Ogres book... though at least we get a Battle Report there, too, which is a large upgrade in attention over the past half dozen years.


----------



## Lastik

I love how Inquisitor Karamasov is on the Warhammer fantasy pre-order section and not on the 40k part. How would he be OP in a fantasy setting :laugh:


----------



## WallWeasels

Lastik said:


> I love how Inquisitor Karamasov is on the Warhammer fantasy pre-order section and not on the 40k part. How would he be OP in a fantasy setting :laugh:


So he is...oh my :laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well there was this whole Storm of Magic thing and he is a Witch Hunter Inquisitor so it does make sense in a GW sort of way...


----------



## Ratvan

Karamasov = Arch lector on Altar of Sigmar?


----------



## Troublehalf

Inquisitor Karamazov.... a name people can't remember how to spell.... I had to look this one up lol 

The new characters for Sisters of Battle are pretty cool. Love how GW love crazy names begining with K... the new Sister of Battle character is called Arch-Confessor Kyrinov. The other one is Ariah Jacobus, he has an awesome shotgun called "The Redeemer" which is awesome.

By new I mean, new rules... they are not new models or additional models.... but they are new rules and stuff.

Arch-Confessor Kyrinov has been renamed from Imperial Confessor Kyrinov. Ariah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith has been renamed from Witch Hunters Imperial Missionary Jacobus.

Thing is, they still use units from the old Witch Hunters army.... these units also are used by Grey Knights: Arco-flagellant, Crusader, Death Cult Assassin..... seems a bit strange... perhaps it's to "bulk" up the army options.

My opinion is: Not worth getting them unless you like metal models. However I DO know a website that still sells the box of 10 Battle Sisters.... which I might use for a group of 10 of each 'type'. Celestine is still pretty powerful. The rules of Kyrinov and Jacobus are pretty cool. The Immolators "bubble" dome is pretty cool as well. I still love the Shotgun that Jacobus uses  He is awesome.

Question: When it says "Units with X character in gets +1 attack while he is in the squad" does the attack only apply to melee? Or does it also allow an extra shot of a certain item.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Troublehalf said:


> Question: When it says "Units with X character in gets +1 attack while he is in the squad" does the attack only apply to melee? Or does it also allow an extra shot of a certain item.


It's only for the Attack stat which in turn is only for assault. If he were to give for guns it would specifically say so. Example would be the Culexus Assassins anti psyker weapon.


----------



## lemage

i hate what theyve done with the SoB. not that many people plyed with them so there effectivly trying to push the army away. but i swear less people played dark eldar .


----------



## TheKingElessar

Uriah. :wink: Correcting spelling, huh?


----------



## stenographer

I may have missed it but I was just curious if there are any rumors/prevailing theories as to how the simulacrum will function? I assume that they intend to include it based on the the design scheme of the update thus far (that is, a general tendency to stick the existing model/unit range in C:WH).

What was that Cities of Death stratagem for witch hunters released in July's WD? I remember it pertaining to the simulacrum and it would make sense that it would be designed to function with the new C:SoB. It's wording may provide some insight as to how it will function. Given the structure of the new faith system, I assume it will be something like a reroll or an extra die (take the highest). Being that it isn't listed in the bonuses with ICs, superiors, and causalities, I assume that it doesn't provide a simple +1 bonus to the roll. Also, a forth possible bonus would give some units the ability to succeed at the test on 1+, which is unlikely.

On this note, is there anything about other wargear options that may be available?


----------



## rasolyo

If you'll read the entry for the sister dialogous and kyrinov, i believe (wd not in hand atm), they are listed as having laud hailers.

Laud Hailers were previously vehicle upgrades that reduced tank shocked units' leadership by 1.

Knowing GW, they'll probably make it so it'll give opposing units -1 to their leadership for morale tests after losing combat.

Personally, i'm hoping that it's something that will actually be of use.


----------



## Vicktimization

**sigh**

I am not sure what to think of this whole update thing, really. On one hand, they are getting attention and this pretty much guarantees that they're not going to kill the army (and we SHOULD get new models eventually!). There was someone taunting me at my gaming club for months now that they would just discontinue it, and it sure was nice to shove the WD issue in their faces, and then stomp on them with my OUTDATED USELESS army.

On the other hand, I am a little worried about this temporary codex. Faith points feel like they've been watered down and that really is a shame, because that was what defined Sisters as an army, in my opinion. That, and all the glorious meltas and flamers. And all the obscure rules that baffled and aggravated every opponent.

I have about 4000 points of Sisters, by the way. I have all the priests, Repentia, Assassins, Kyrinov (even though he was just a priest in 3rd), and pretty much everything else. I have two special cases with straps to carry it in, because it is all metal and weighs a ton. I have been playing them since 2003, and boy do I miss the glory days of Arco-flagellants chain-consolidating and mowing down squad after squad, and Celestine ruining everyone's day. Though, perhaps with her new updates, she may rise again.

Even before this update was even mentioned, I was still playing Sisters. I have a few builds that I have been running. I have 13 tanks, and sometimes run a mecha-sisters, which is quite good as long as I am careful with bottle-necking. I also have a speed-sisters list that I run, where everything is jump or in a tank, and scrappy in CC (eeeeeviscerators!). I made a list for a tournament where I fielded as many flamers and meltas as I could for a team planetstrike, and I single-handedly won us the game by breaking every single bastion, flaming everyone inside, and using Seraphim to break three major tanks. I also have 1000 points of Imperial Guard that I splice in with Sisters to give it a great long range and 40 conscripts to hide everything behind (with an Inquisitor in there!). The Imperial Guard really balance out Sisters nicely, I found.

I guess where I am going with this is that Sisters WERE still competitive! Hard as hell now to collect, though (I bought almost everything from eBay back in the day, and converted what I could not get). It remains to be seen if they really can capture the flavour of the army in their new update. But I am sorely going to miss my obscure little rules, my Inquisitor with his rangeless Psychic Hood, my 3+ invul. save, my Imperial Guard buddies, and all the little things that kept me playing all these years despite the mockery and incredulity that I received.

It drove the point home how few people still play Sisters still when I called, asking about the WD issue, and the GW people knew me by my voice and used my name when I had only been in their store less than a dozen times.

My heart goes out to those that have not been able to collect the army because it was metal and has to all be special-ordered (eBay can be your friend!). It is a really tough gig to be a regular Sisters player sometimes, and I definitely feel underpowered against high strength, high toughness powerhouses that have become the posterboys of many armies. But, this update should at least make the army more accessible eventually. They HAVE to update all of the 3rd Ed. armies, I've heard, because of how the 6th Ed. ruleset is supposed to be. 

So, it's likely that we will have a true codex sometime near when the new ruleset lands. And if the second part of this WD codex turns out to be ugly, just remember that it is not set in stone. From what I have heard, the Blood Angels WD codex was TERRIBLE when it came out, and look at those guys now!

Fight on, my Sisters!


----------



## rasolyo

Vicktimization said:


> I have about 4000 points of Sisters


I WOULD LIKE TO BE YOU SOMEDAY.


----------



## The Sullen One

Well the revised army doesn't seem too bad so far. While I'm not happy about only a 6+ invulnerable save (when most units with an invulnerable get a 5+) I suppose I can't complain too much seeing as how it's army wide. As to faith points, they don't seem too bad in that you're getting upto six a turn, while the test itself doesn't seem too punitive (if worded very strangely).

Actually my only complaint so far is that Celestine only gets a 4+ invulnerable save. She's suppossed to be a living saint, the flying arse-kicking embodiment of the Emperor's will, so why has she only got a 4++ when Terminators, who are just fat blokes in fancy suits, get a 3++?


----------



## Katie Drake

The Sullen One said:


> Actually my only complaint so far is that Celestine only gets a 4+ invulnerable save. She's suppossed to be a living saint, the flying arse-kicking embodiment of the Emperor's will, so why has she only got a 4++ when Terminators, who are just fat blokes in fancy suits, get a 3++?


Because she doesn't fucking die?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vicktimization said:


> Loads of stuff


Welcome to the forums.

Sisters have always been competitive and I dont understand people who say they aren't. The problem for me has always been variety as there are so few choices you can take that are actually good.
In todays "meta" you can start by throwing Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia, Arco-Flagellants and Death Cultists down the drain. They are all niche but too unreliable, points heavy or give too many kill points.
If you dont do Immolator spam with as much melta and flamer as possible with some Exorcists thrown in you are just preparing to fail.

I really hope Penitent Engines and Sisters Repentia become viable as those are my favourite units in all of 40K. I also hope the 9 PE in a single squadron rumour is true because that would just be funny, especially if it's not a 0-1 choice which means you could field 27 Penitent Engines in a single army  I doubt this rumour is true as BoK can be so obscure sometimes but I digress.

I really hope the wargear and points costs makes up for the new faith system, or that perhaps Simulacrum Imperials makes all friendly units within 6" benefit from another units Act of Faith (if Retributors make their Faith Test and have a SI all Sisters units within 6" gets the Rending rule).
Something like this would explain the new watered down Faith system and more than make up for it in my opinion but I doubt it, GW doesn't exactly have a reputation for making Sisters players happy.

It's going to be a loooong month...

I'm going to GD UK again this year, if I get my sweaty palms on Cruddace or Ward I will be sure to interrogate them regarding the new Sisters and WHY, just WHY it is the way it is.


----------



## oiad

The Sullen One said:


> Actually my only complaint so far is that Celestine only gets a 4+ invulnerable save. She's suppossed to be a living saint, the flying arse-kicking embodiment of the Emperor's will, so why has she only got a 4++ when Terminators, who are just fat blokes in fancy suits, get a 3++?


She should do quite well against them... ...until the hammernators hit back. I don't mind that she doesn't get a 3++, as cool as it would be if SoF was cumulative with other inv' saves. EW would have been preferable though. 

Also, as such an inspiring figure, some kind of unit-wide/army-wide utility would have been helpful.


----------



## WallWeasels

I have been debating with someoen that the use of "act of faith" in battle sister and repentia may be intensional while the rest of the codex uses "acts of faith". Some people say its just traditional "GW copypaste" work but then why would they copypaste out an "s"?  I sure hope it implies that units may have more than one AoF <3
Nice on the banner though. Notice how ALL the faith powers do not require the unit in question? They all use "The unit" instead of "dominions get twin-linked." Although the fluff description says the units name, the actual rule is very general. The fact that the only power that overlaps is Battle sisters and Dominions (reroll 1s vs twin-linked). But battle sisters power allows rerolling 1s in combat and also the regrouping part...so its not that it entirely overlaps.

But oh god you got me a flicker of excitment there. 20 Battle sisters gaining rending from retributors? Why? WHY did I imagine 18 bolters exploding a 12 vehicle...*cough*
Also I really doubt GW would allow Celestine to come back to life AND have eternal warrior


----------



## Winterous

oiad said:


> Also, as such an inspiring figure, some kind of unit-wide/army-wide utility would have been helpful.


At just a guess, it's possible that she makes Celestians into Troops, or something, I wouldn't be surprised at all.


----------



## AlexHolker

The Sullen One said:


> Actually my only complaint so far is that Celestine only gets a 4+ invulnerable save. She's suppossed to be a living saint, the flying arse-kicking embodiment of the Emperor's will, so why has she only got a 4++ when Terminators, who are just fat blokes in fancy suits, get a 3++?


Personally, I would have gone all out and given her a 1++. _That_ would put the fear of the God-Emperor into the enemy!

Think _Preacher_'s The Saint of Killers.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I think it more likely she makes Seraphim Troops, since she is one...


----------



## The Sullen One

TheKingElessar said:


> I think it more likely she makes Seraphim Troops, since she is one...


That would be a nice option, might even tempt me into trying to buy more than one unit.


----------



## hells

TheKingElessar said:


> I think it more likely she makes Seraphim Troops, since she is one...


if that is true i would be collecting a few more squads of seraphim ;3 always liked them its just my horredous luk with them leads to early deaths (only unit i have that consitently fails amour saves as if they were guardsmen)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheKingElessar said:


> I think it more likely she makes Seraphim Troops, since she is one...


As far as I know she isn't one.
From what I know she was a Sisters Repentia who found a former saints armour (the armour of Saint Katherine) and thus gaining repentance as well as becoming a saint herself.
The only thing she has in common with Seraphim is that she has a jump pack.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> As far as I know she isn't one.
> From what I know she was a Sisters Repentia who found a former saints armour (the armour of Saint Katherine) and thus gaining repentance as well as becoming a saint herself.
> The only thing she has in common with Seraphim is that she has a jump pack.


To your point about hoping that Simulacrum's will allow units to gain the benefit of your faith when you use it...sadly it wont happen. Nor will Laud hailers be a stubborn aura like people hope...

Reason? Its called "Fucking Kyrinov". 
He counts as having a Simulacrum and a Laud Hailer, so the effect has to be something he can provide. IE since he has no AoF he can't provide his AoF effect to nearby units. Maybe it might be unit he joins...but confessors are kind of hinted to be with Battle Conclaves, not sisters. Since he has a fearless aura, and is fearless himself, his laud hailer can't give stubborn since thats just not compatible. 
This effectively forces Simulacrums effect to be "+1 to faith" or something like that. Since it won't be a reroll to faith-tests (because seraphim have this effect and it isn't called a Simulacrum)...it basically HAS to be +1 to faith rolls or something. :| However Having an additional +1 to faith means that a "roll of a 1 is a success" scenarios can occur as the max number of bonuses is +4. Since GW almost uses "1 is fail" as a system I really doubt that faith will be "auto-pass" in any situation... and yes even if it doesn't exclude rolls of 1 to be auto-fail thats just genrally how GW writes their rules :angry:
[edit]Although it does not stop that being a possibility


----------



## Creon

Ahh, but a "1+" to wound in Fantasy is an autosuccess. So there is precedent for the 1+ roll is in existence. I believe the Laud Hailer will increase LD in a bubble, and the Simulacrum will either add to the faith pool or add 1 to the AoF roll.


----------



## WallWeasels

Creon said:


> Ahh, but a "1+" to wound in Fantasy is an autosuccess. So there is precedent for the 1+ roll is in existence. I believe the Laud Hailer will increase LD in a bubble, and the Simulacrum will either add to the faith pool or add 1 to the AoF roll.


I think the laud hailer will be a debuff to enemy LD similiar to what it is now. Is a 1+ to wound in fantasy auto-wound? Hmm odd.

So maybe there is a possibility, but it would definitely be new to 40k I think. Plus laud hailer reducing enemy leadership would kind of go with Kyrinov being a crazy loud confessor.Dialogus have always been written as helpful to allies just as much as she is meant to be scary for enemies in how she speaks. So...guess its a toss up really.


----------



## stenographer

WallWeasels said:


> This effectively forces Simulacrums effect to be "+1 to faith" or something like that. Since it won't be a reroll to faith-tests (because seraphim have this effect and it isn't called a Simulacrum)...it basically HAS to be +1 to faith rolls or something.


It's worth noting that seraphim in C:WH did not have the option to take the simulacrum (the superior afforded the same bonus). On the assumption that this is still the case, it's possible that the simularcum's effect has been rolled into angelic visage. Point being, the seraphim's ability to reroll the faith check isn't necessarily redundant if the the simulacrum happens to do the same thing.

Though purely speculation on my part, when considering the obvious shortfall of the new faith system for large SoB armies, it could also make sense for the simulacrum or another piece of wargear to add 1 to the faith point total per turn. The higher unit count of larger armies would mean more faith points to spread around.


----------



## SilverTabby

Vicktimization said:


> Huge long post


Welcome! And I must say, it's lovely to welcome someone who writes with punctuation and correct grammar. A long post that isn't a headache to read? You can stay... :biggrin:

I must say I empathise with many of your points. I have enough figures to make several thousand more points of Sisters (but not the time to assemble them - currently), enough Immolator sprues to outfit a dozen or more rhinos, and at least 1000 points of Inducted Guard... Yet the changes that stripped out Guard from my list haven't upset me that much. 

Beating people with an outdated Codex is a lot of fun. It's also immense fun (at least I find it so) when you can do it without utilising half of the special rules and so-called 'must-have' units or vehicles. But then, I'm strange like that. 

I'm really looking forwards to testing out the new WD-dex. It looks like it will be challenging, and that's much more fun than "my codex has all the new insta-win rules, you may as well just not set up" :wink:


----------



## SilverTabby

On Force Organisation...

It may well be that Celestians are now troops choices. Either them or the battle enclaves, and I doubt power-weapon wielders will get that slot. Also, in a pure SoB list, non-SoB getting a Troops choice doesn't sit right with me.

Elites will be full of Repentia, possibly Penitent Engines (upto 16 attacks on the charge? Gotta love that idea) and likely the Battle enclaves. 
Fast Attack will be Dominions (likely to still have a compulsary tank) and Seraphim.
Heavy Support will be the tanks, Retributors and maybe the Penitent Engine (but that slot would stop most people taking it).

So, my thoughts are that Celestians will now be Troops, just costing a little more than regular girls. It would add more versatility, kind of make up for their AoF that many consider sub-par, and address the problem that C:WH had, which was virtually no Troops other than Battle Sisters worth a damn. And it would be nice, in a game where Troops are all-important.

Of course, I could be wrong. :wink: Thoughts?


----------



## andrewm9

stenographer said:


> It's worth noting that seraphim in C:WH did not have the option to take the simulacrum (the superior afforded the same bonus). On the assumption that this is still the case, it's possible that the simularcum's effect has been rolled into angelic visage. Point being, the seraphim's ability to reroll the faith check isn't necessarily redundant if the the simulacrum happens to do the same thing.
> 
> Though purely speculation on my part, when considering the obvious shortfall of the new faith system for large SoB armies, it could also make sense for the simulacrum or another piece of wargear to add 1 to the faith point total per turn. The higher unit count of larger armies would mean more faith points to spread around.


I think you may be assuming facts not in evidence yet. I seriously doubt we are going to get a huge point break on models. In order for the codex to change into a horde army the point break woudl have to be significant. Getting an extra bolter or two for the points we were paying for 10 is not a big change in my opinion. Thr points cost for different weapons might make a difference as each weapon is pointed for 2 editions ago. Currently Sisters are about 5 points less than marine tac squad. With the old faith its almost right, but not quite. We'll have be 70 points cheaper per squad for it really to matter and thats including the ride.


----------



## Azezel

SilverTabby said:


> Beating people with an outdated Codex is a lot of fun. It's also immense fun (at least I find it so) when you can do it without utilising half of the special rules and so-called 'must-have' units or vehicles. But then, I'm strange like that.


I have lost exactly twice this year (had a few draws too), and I'm not running either of the Sisters power lists - also, a pure Sisters army won the throne of Skulls a few months back. The current book isn't as lame as some make out.

(That said, I suspect my win record has less to do with my army or my own skill as it has to do with the lack of variety in my opponants, nothing but Marines as far as the eye can see)



SilverTabby said:


> I'm really looking forwards to testing out the new WD-dex. It looks like it will be challenging, and that's much more fun than "my codex has all the new insta-win rules, you may as well just not set up" :wink:


Thing is, I want to be able to challenge my friends, and this White Dwarf abortion does not seem likely to do that.

The last game I played (Draw Vs Space Woofs) almost every move I made was accompanied by 'I won't be able to do that soon' or 'They got nerfed' or 'Goddamn Initiative 3 everywhere soon' or 'The new 'dex has zero psychic defence'*.

To start with my opponant seemed happy because Sisters always seemed to strike him as somewhat of a dickery-based army - but as things went on you could clearly see him wondering if it'd even be worth playing me in two month's time. I'm not suure that it will.




*You can immagine how a Space Wolf player's eyes light up upon learning that I'm loosing the shield of Faith... He's a gentleman so it won't be four wolf-priest time, but I'm betting Jaws and Living Lightning will start to appear in his list.


----------



## Tanarri

WallWeasels said:


> Is a 1+ to wound in fantasy auto-wound? Hmm odd.


1+ to wound isn't auto wound you still fail always fail to hit or wound on a 1 however if you have some special ability give you +1 on your to wound roll any 1 you roll is now considered a 2.


----------



## stenographer

andrewm9 said:


> I think you may be assuming facts not in evidence yet. I seriously doubt we are going to get a huge point break on models. In order for the codex to change into a horde army the point break woudl have to be significant.


I think you may have misunderstood. I was merely noting that 1d6 faith points per turn is not very many for a 2,000 point army, even at the current point costs. Wargear that increases faith point generation could be included for larger armies to abate this problem. However, this was simply speculation

As for my assumption about the seraphim not being able to take the simulacrum, I am basing that on the design approach we have seen in the WD codex. The new C:SoB is designed to use every existing sisters model without adding demand for new ones by including units not already represented. This is accompanied by a general preference to 'update' or 'patch' the old rules/units in order to bring them up to snuff instead of fundamentally reworking them like we saw with DE or GK. 

The existing seraphim models do not include a seraphim imagifer carrying a simulacrum. Following the above logic, it would make sense that the approach taken in C:WH is being rolled over to the new C:SoB. Since the simulacrum was formerly not a wargear option for seraphim but an innate bonus, it follows that the same is true about current seraphim.


----------



## TraceofToxin

I've got a positive win record with Sisters vs every army except Eldar, where I'm 50/50.


----------



## Creon

Tanarri said:


> 1+ to wound isn't auto wound you still fail always fail to hit or wound on a 1 however if you have some special ability give you +1 on your to wound roll any 1 you roll is now considered a 2.


Q: Does a To Wound roll of a 1 always fail to Wound? (p42, 51)
A: No. Though it is very rare for a model to be able to Wound
on a 1+.

Warhammer FAQ, Pg. 6. 1 does not always fail to wound. So there is precedent, but in another game system.


----------



## Shandathe

One nice thing is that it appears that the SCs are actually - for the moment - canonically alive. 

Well, with her appearing where needed (and disappearing after) Celestine has joined the ranks of the Legion of the Dead and the Sanguinor and is more of canonically un-dead, but... Hrmm. She was in a White Dwarf with Vampire Counts... And those lips in said WD loko awfully blood red...


----------



## Vicktimization

Thanks for welcoming me to the forums, first off, everyone. :biggrin:

Seraphim did have a Simulacrum Imperialis, because as long as you upgraded to the Veteran Superior it was included with her (so long as she lived).

Some of you already noted this, and I will bring it up as well. It feels like the defenses of Sisters has been stripped down a lot. Without Inquisitors it's very unlikely that we will have any psychic hood (let along the infuriating unlimited range one, hahahaha). There also is no mention of that little rule of psychic powers being nullified on Adeptas Sororitas on 5+ so far (so many people forget that rule!). In fact, that 5+ defense was called Shield of Faith as well, so it's been replaced altogether by the 6+ invulnerable save. And I don't care what anyone says, 6+ overall invulnerable save is worse than the 3+ one even though the 3+ was not for everything. I always took care to get my tanks a cover save anyways, or the units that did not have an invulerable save. It'll be a lot harder to tarpit, that's for sure!

What really bothers me so far with the faith is they took a lot of the tactics out of it. I always was very specific in my squad sizes, so that as the game progressed I could estimate, based on likely casualities, how my faith would go. Now I feel like I just mash some squads together regardless of size. It's good and bad. 

I really hope the wargear and points balance this out. I will, for the most part, reserve my judgement for now. Though, I am dusting off my 40 Repentia as I type this! Mwahahahahaha!


----------



## WallWeasels

Yeah despite that Seraphim had a "counts-as" Simulacrum through the veteran they still had one. Angelic Visage was just the +1LD bonus while now it is reroll AoF and SoF. So yes, it is possible Simulacrum might be a reroll...but I think it will side towards +1 faith point for each. Since right now the lack of army scaling is one of the largest problems...other than the one-power-per-unit boringness


----------



## mahavira

I clearly should never have gotten into SoB as an army. I hated the old faith rules and like the new ones. With the exception of removing inquisitors and officio assassinorum operatives (and the fact of a wd update) I quite like what I'm seeing so far (wargear options and point costs remain to be seen of course).


----------



## Meshakhad

mahavira said:


> I clearly should never have gotten into SoB as an army. I hated the old faith rules and like the new ones. With the exception of removing inquisitors and officio assassinorum operatives (and the fact of a wd update) I quite like what I'm seeing so far (wargear options and point costs remain to be seen of course).


I'm with you. I'm an optimist, but I'm happy with these changes.

- 6+ Invul save? Sounds stupid, but there will be times that it changes the course of a battle, because your Exorcist survived that one lascannon hit.
- I3. Sucks, but as people have said, Sisters are a close-range shooty army, not a melee army. We're midway between Marines and Guard.
- Acts of Faith. Yes, the acts are weaker, but now we will be using them all the time. Superiors will be considered mandatory, so they will go off at least half the time. They won't be reliable, true, but heretics will learn to hate them.
- Seraphim. Major boost, and they will only get nastier if certain rumors about 6th Ed are true (namely, that jump pack infantry will be harder to hit). They have the best Act of Faith in the game, and Angelic Visage is pure cheese.
- Penitent Engines. Still fragile, but it will the Wrath of the Emperor Himself when it gets into melee.

Here's what I'm hoping for in part 2:
- Loads of antipsychic wargear. Because they used to be called the frakking Witch Hunters for a reason.
- Blessed Ammunition/Holy Promethium wargear.
- Initiative boosting wargear.

And the one I pray for, but don't have high hopes for:
Battle Sisters
Squad Size: 4-19 Battle Sisters and 1 Sister Superior

Because that will once again make the Wall O' Immolators a viable strategy.


----------



## rasolyo

I remain a positive pessimist (as opposed to being a cautious optimist?), and maintain that some good will come of this WD dex in spite of what has been given so far (and that's putting it lightly) be it in the coming wargear section or a true codex/new model release in the near future.


----------



## Meshakhad

Also, the OP mentioned plastic models. Is there a source for this?


----------



## oiad

Meshakhad said:


> I'm with you. I'm an optimist, but I'm happy with these changes...
> - I3. Sucks, but as people have said, Sisters are a close-range shooty army, not a melee army. We're midway between Marines and Guard...


At the risk of going around in circles, while you did correctly hit the lot of the perks this one is a little off. Firstly close-range shooting pretty much invites the inevitable of being drawn into close-combat. So it's helpful that your troops can at least hold out in this phase. Secondly, despite the macho profiles and fluff, the general Space Marine army isn't a close-combat army foremost either but and all-rounder army. They can do assault-based builds but they can also excel in other areas too, depending on what you want out of them.

Otherwise, I hope your right about what we could be getting in part two.


----------



## Numero-Uno

Meshakhad said:


> Also, the OP mentioned plastic models. Is there a source for this?


Ok i'm not sure if this is even true, but the information in this link suggests someone has already seen the plastic SoB models.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-sisters-of-battle-details.html

It basically says this:

_"via stickmonkey today:
*Part 1*
I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck. 

The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be. 

The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.

I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.

*Part 2* 
The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.

The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.

the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.

the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.

the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.

there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.

I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...

Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....

I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.

I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.

Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.

And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.

Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.

I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
Cheers."_

Remember, all of this is hear-say and rumors.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If you want something to read while you wait for Sep WD then I would suggest this.
It seems Daemonifuge is now print on demand over at BL, it's a really awesome series and I really enjoyed it and will be making my own screaming cage at some point.
As far as I know there is no real ending to this series though, it ends with a cliffhanger and I doubt this print on demand book will be any different.


----------



## Revarien

MadCowCrazy said:


> If you want something to read while you wait for Sep WD then I would suggest this.
> It seems Daemonifuge is now print on demand over at BL, it's a really awesome series and I really enjoyed it and will be making my own screaming cage at some point.
> As far as I know there is no real ending to this series though, it ends with a cliffhanger and I doubt this print on demand book will be any different.



Wow... I have a copy of that in my game closet! My Lt Ed. Epheral Stern is actually sitting on my paint desk right now... I really ought to finish her.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Revarien said:


> Wow... I have a copy of that in my game closet! My Lt Ed. Epheral Stern is actually sitting on my paint desk right now... I really ought to finish her.


DAMN YOU! I've tried to get my hands on that mini but it's very hard to get a hold of.

Was there an actual model for this one though?


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> DAMN YOU! I've tried to get my hands on that mini but it's very hard to get a hold of.
> 
> Was there an actual model for this one though?


God that makes me feel old


----------



## Revarien

MadCowCrazy said:


> DAMN YOU! I've tried to get my hands on that mini but it's very hard to get a hold of.
> 
> Was there an actual model for this one though?



Be sure you get documentation with it, if you get it (and are somewhat of a collector...). It is recast often.

As far as your Sister-Dread. Yes. I've seen it once. The guy wanted [I think it was] 400$ (though that was his initial and I got him to go as low as 350...) for it though. While I died inside a bit due to the price, I passed: it was just too much.


----------



## hells

Seraphim Pistols: Any model in a Seraphim squad that is armed with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase. If they do so, they can fire no other weapon that turn.

i may be wrong but the way im reading this rule is any seraphim with 2 pistols may fire both, and inferno pistols are pistols :3 so that means we get to fire both of them? its just how im interupeting this rule atm and yes im assuming they still get twin inferno pistols in the amoury X3


----------



## rasolyo

Certainly sounds that way. I think TastyTaste implied that as well back when we had those rumours.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hells said:


> Seraphim Pistols: Any model in a Seraphim squad that is armed with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase. If they do so, they can fire no other weapon that turn.


The red part is the interesting bit I think. Does this mean they can take 2 handed ranged weapons? Like a flamer or heavy flamer perhaps? I'm probably reading too much into this but that line sure is curious.


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> The red part is the interesting bit I think. Does this mean they can take 2 handed ranged weapons? Like a flamer or heavy flamer perhaps? I'm probably reading too much into this but that line sure is curious.


I thought that as well since last I remember the serphims only had the twin pistols in the first place unless the vet. had her CC blade.


----------



## Doelago

Wait, wtf. Is this a fluff re-con or what? 

Uriah Jacobus, I thought he was dead. Died while imprisoned by some heretics or something. 

And Saint Celestine? I thought she died in a nuclear explosion! Has she joined the ranks of the Legion of the Damned or something!? 

Just wondering, since the new fluff seems to indicate that both of them are very, very much alive.


----------



## WallWeasels

Doelago said:


> Wait, wtf. Is this a fluff re-con or what?
> 
> Uriah Jacobus, I thought he was dead. Died while imprisoned by some heretics or something.
> 
> And Saint Celestine? I thought she died in a nuclear explosion! Has she joined the ranks of the Legion of the Damned or something!?
> 
> Just wondering, since the new fluff seems to indicate that both of them are very, very much alive.


GW realized that we dont actually have any special characters. Instead of having a codex of entirely dead characters they just made them alive again.


----------



## Revarien

Doelago said:


> Wait, wtf. Is this a fluff re-con or what?
> 
> Uriah Jacobus, I thought he was dead. Died while imprisoned by some heretics or something.
> 
> And Saint Celestine? I thought she died in a nuclear explosion! Has she joined the ranks of the Legion of the Damned or something!?
> 
> Just wondering, since the new fluff seems to indicate that both of them are very, very much alive.


It's just that timelines mean little to boardgames with little painted people.

I looked back at the fluff on all the older sisters of battle special characters and found that they pretty much all died or were presumed dead. Their death or the time frame still fits in, they just omitted it.

IMO, this is similar to people's outrage to Draigo being fielded in a game when his fluff expressly says he gets thrown into the warp for the next 1000 years or so. In the timeline of the Grey Knights, it expressly states that he gets sucked into the warp towards the end of the 41st millennium... the end of the 40k-verse (at the moment at least), yet we get fluff on what happens after - it just doesn't list the dates like the old books seemed to do so often.

In fact, I'd go as far to state that the older codices tended to put more dates in to quantify their entire timeline, where the current codices tend to be more open and broad. I don't think they want the players to feel confined based on fluff, yet still be able to base their games around it.

Just my 2 cents though.

*EDIT*


MadCowCrazy said:


> DAMN YOU! I've tried to get my hands on that mini but it's very hard to get a hold of.
> 
> Was there an actual model for this one though?


Ok... so I'm really glad I didn't buy the mentioned offered dread now... because I got determined to find the thing again (thinking the person was still selling it, most likely at that price) and I made a discovery.

I found a much larger, higher res pic of the one you posted and found that it is actually a cobbled-together dreadnought (the front of the sarcophagus was from the older sister rhino that had a metal front bit). All those skews are associated with different bits that used to be order-able back when the bitz service was in full swing by GW. So... yeah... it's actually just a kit-bash dread. That they gave a data-card for.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/MCP1/1301846508083.jpg <--High res pic


----------



## mahavira

TheSpore said:


> I thought that as well since last I remember the serphims only had the twin pistols in the first place unless the vet. had her CC blade.


Just speculating but I suspect it's something to do with how they treat two hand flamers. If they just call it a flamer, they might have people thinking they can shoot a bolt pistol and a flamer.


----------



## hells

TheSpore said:


> I thought that as well since last I remember the serphims only had the twin pistols in the first place unless the vet. had her CC blade.


yeah that parts got me and the other guy, im just ignoring it cause im assuming gw just fails XP but if we can fire the c weapon in the shooting phase that would be lulz



Revarien said:


> Ok... so I'm really glad I didn't buy the mentioned offered dread now... because I got determined to find the thing again (thinking the person was still selling it, most likely at that price) and I made a discovery.
> 
> I found a much larger, higher res pic of the one you posted and found that it is actually a cobbled-together dreadnought (the front of the sarcophagus was from the older sister rhino that had a metal front bit). All those skews are associated with different bits that used to be order-able back when the bitz service was in full swing by GW. So... yeah... it's actually just a kit-bash dread. That they gave a data-card for.
> http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/MCP1/1301846508083.jpg <--High res pic


now that ive seen that closer up ive seen it before, a week or so ago on ebay a sisters army for 350 pounds (good deal just worried on shiping X3) and it had a battle sisters dread with hombrew rules, but by the looks id say it was that, models look the same to me, shame i didnt buy it now


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Saw this over at Dakka just moments ago. I've marked the interesting ones in red.
Are we looking at getting "Finecast" or just restocked metals?



skrulnik said:


> Just got this email today. An order I placed last week is just being filled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> We are currently packing the order you placed with Games Workshop. However; one or more of the item(s) you ordered are currently out of stock and will be on the list that follows. This is a list of all items on back order and when they are due to arrive into our warehouse.
> 
> Please note that not all of these items are on your order. This list is provided to you, for your convenience, incase you wanted to place an order for other items that may be out of stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 99060103129 Ork Boss Snikrot 12-Aug-11
> 
> 99060110022 Necron Lord and Resurrection Orb 12-Aug-11
> 
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> 99060301026 Epic: Space Marine Drop Pod 02-Sep-11
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> 99140113005 Tau XV88 Broadside Battlesuit 02-Sep-11
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> 99110104096 Eldar Warp Spiders Aspect Warriors Squad 16-Sep-11
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> 99110104113 Eldar Harlequin Troupe 16-Sep-11
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> 99060108073 Witch Hunter Henchmen Dialogus 23-Sep-11
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> 99060108086 Sister Superior with Power Maul 23-Sep-11
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> 99060207032 Vampire Counts Black Knight 23-Sep-11
> 
> The item(s) have been cancelled off your order, and you will not be charged for them. Please reorder them at your convenience.
> 
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> 
> _edit for format_
Click to expand...


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## TheSpore

wow what a sisters release two whol chara. model woo hoo. This is gonna be the best army roll out ever


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## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> wow what a sisters release two whol chara. model woo hoo. This is gonna be the best army roll out ever


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## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> DAMN YOU! I've tried to get my hands on that mini but it's very hard to get a hold of.
> 
> Was there an actual model for this one though?


If you recal, MCC, I originally posted that, along with a pic of the model itself.










I don't actually want Sororitas dreads to make a comeback, but do we think there's any chance of getting a Dominica Pattern Drop Pod in this hypothetical new codex that has been rumoured?


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## Doelago

I have come to the conclusion that I prefer the new Codex over the old one. Makes me want to start an proper army... I wants new models...


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## AlexHolker

Azezel said:


> I don't actually want Sororitas dreads to make a comeback, but do we think there's any chance of getting a Dominica Pattern Drop Pod in this hypothetical new codex that has been rumoured?


No. It's a terrible idea anyway. Drop Pods shouldn't be available to anyone except Space Marines, and the Sisters should get new stuff that actually fits the army, not just unfluffy SM knockoffs.


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## MadCowCrazy

If we look at what the Sisters have right now we can get some idea of what they might be getting.

First obvious choices are more Special Characters, probably the revival of the 2E ones as they've already resurrected 2 of them. Stickmonkey said about a year ago that he saw a green if a female model with a stormbolter on each arm, he thought it was a new Grey Knights SC but there were no female SCs in the GK codex.

Other than this a flier is pretty obvious, every new codex has contained one so the Sisters will no doubt get one. I'm guessing sometime similar to the Valkyrie if not the valk model itself with an upgrade sprue for Sisters decals and decorations.

There are a few other things missing, like more Ecclesiarchy units. Even though I prefer an all Sisters army they will no doubt get a few more slots.
In Troops I'm pretty sure we'll get Zealots or Frateris Militia if not both.
I'm willing to bet that the Ecclesiarchy will get at least 1 unit entry in each FOC slot.

Unless the Conclave is HQ we already have the Elite slot filled which leaves FA and HS.
Adeptus Arbites could easily fill those slots but I dont think we will see any of those in the Sisters codex.

So what is left then?

As the Immolator seems to have been reduced to a dedicated transport only we have a free FA vehicle slot unless our flier ended up in there which seems unlikely as none have so far. A new HS tank or uber Penitent Engine?
As GW seems to like huge models on the new 120mm oval base we will probably get something that uses it.

I'd love to see a Land Raider sized tank that uses the Hellstorm template or whatever it's called from Apocalypse. There is a forgeworld tank that uses it and I'd love to see it in the Sisters army but that's because I love flame templates.


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## oiad

MadCowCrazy said:


> First obvious choices are more Special Characters, probably the revival of the 2E ones as they've already resurrected 2 of them. Stickmonkey said about a year ago that he saw a green if a female model with a stormbolter on each arm, he thought it was a new Grey Knights SC but there were no female SCs in the GK codex.


Yep, no female SCs... ...except for Inquisitor Helynna Valeria. 

Of course she's equipped with a Las-pistol and the 40k version of the Noisy Cricket, not two hefty Stormbolters.


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## Grogbart

Suggestions?!

Rename the Conclave into Fratris Militia Warband and make it a proper copy of the Henchmen Warband. 
Include Zealots as Warrior Alcolyt substitutes with less options. 
Redemptionists with Eviscerators and some kind of Fanaticism Special Rule, giving the whole unit something on a roll of a D6 (0 nothing, 2-3 Stubborn, 4-5 Martyrdom (explained later), 6 fearless). 
Instead of Servitors there could be Zealot Weapon teams, basic weapon sniper, up to three may exchange it for heavy stubber, heavy flamer, multi-melta or auto cannon.
As for the monkey I don't think it can be replaced properly, but my best guess would be a Sister Fabulous, calling in a Favor from her appointed governor or rich merchant (opening their private armouries or sending their own personal bodyguards). Rolled like the Jokaero customisation rule the effects would be something like, zealots get carapace armour, have BF4, get defensive grenades or camo cloaks.
And of course a Special Character to make them Troop choices!

Furthermore, if they had to make AoF unit-specific, they could have divided Celestians into a CC-unit, basic armament chainsword & BP and a shooting-unit with boltguns. Each with an AoF to suit them.

As additional FA choice for Sisters I'd have a non-transport version of the Immolator with side-sponsoons. For HS I'd like a Griffon heavy mortar fitted into a Rhino chassis, firing incendiary instead of high explosive shell (heavy flamer stat big blasts)

Generally, I'd prefer all Sisters to have WS 4, they woudn't hit most targets any better, but not each and everything would hit them on a 3+!
Also I'd like to have a Martyrdom Special Rule for the Sisters: Instead of a Ini comparison, Sisters always retreat successfully, but receive a number of wounds, they lost the combat by. Added by giving all Sisters Stubborn, as to not make them run ALL the time!

Finally all Sister units having the options to replace their frag grenades with defensive grenades (might as well call em phosphor grenades) would also be helpful!


----------



## Sworn Radical

No, thank you. I'd rather prefer the ecclesiarchical Conclave and the Frateris Militia to remain very much different things. The Frateris Militia (or the so-called _'Zealots'_ from 3rd ed.) should remain what they were meant to be, a low-cost troop choice with the options for maybe one or two gimmicks (read: a flamer or heavy stubber etc.) and a tendency for mean religious frenzies.

Redemptionists would be nice to see though, I still keep those old Necromunda models somewhere, and a little bit of flame and evisceration sure go a long way. They'd most likely be elites which would be _'unlockable'_ as a troop choice by taking some sort of Redemptionist special character.

An ecclesiarchical henchmen warband apart from the aforementioned Conclave would sure be a sweet thing to see, but I really doubt it's going to happen. 
And, God-Emperor forbid, I rather don't wanna see some substitute for that foul-smelling orange monkey. They should've left the Jokaero where they belong ... back in the RT rulebook.


----------



## WallWeasels

I actually would agree. I actually really like Crusaders as bodyguards to confessors. I mean it makes sense really...although DCA and arcos do not really.

Regardless I really did not like DCA as "lone ranger" troops just because they don't work well like that. I could tolerate DCA being with Crusaders as a bodyguard unit but Arcos should be in a squad of their own, possibly with a 'Handler' of sorts who'd use the trigger word when they needed to be unleashed. 
I agree really on trying to make confessors be mock-inquistors. They should be characters of their own right. I wouldn't really see them being the ones to have henchmen with heavy weapons and sit back out of the fight. Confessors and preachers have always been shown in the front, with the troops. 

Militia do not really need to come back purely because we don't want to seem like guard...and they were basically guardish. Zealots? Well slap some jury-rigged weapons and WS3/BS3, or even BS2 to show how untrained they are, as a meat shield unit and that would be fine. 
Redemptionists? Maybe as a unique unit to show that "not zealots are like this". Maybe have a special character for Zealots that "turns" them into Redemptionists in some form? That or have an elite slot zealot unit called Redemptionists and have The Redeemer as a SC HQ option who makes them troops. OH god I got a little excited at the possibly of a 40k Redeemer :laugh:

[edit]Regardless...really what I want to see is more sister units. However it is VERY hard to make up a sister unit that doesn't sound weird. I personally would love to see sisters in crusader gear (there are mentions of female crusaders with Fleur De Lys' and even in power armor in Fireborn). Sadly sisters have been a departmentalized army so we can't really just magically make units without stepping on another units toes. We really can't have "novice" sisters as they'd just be crappy battle sisters and they would be wearing power armor as all "sisters in training" fluff we have show them in power armor from day 1. Can't have a "heavy armor" sister as...the only heavier armor in the imperium is artificer and terminator armor. Although artificer is NOT specific to marines, it certainly wouldn't be something sisters would have commonly (as I could see). Basically you have to look at marines. How many "types" of marines are there?
Tactical Marines, Novice Marines (scouts), Heavy Marines (devs), Jump Packs (a.marines), "elite" marines (veterans), heavy armor marines (terminators), bodyguard marines (command squad/honour guard), and biker marines. Space Pups replace novice scouts with blood claws and make scouts veteran but ultimately thats it.
So what can we do here? How about a "vanguard" veteran idea? Seraphim are kind of weird for us. By fluff they seem like veterans but they do not seem "above" or equal to celestians in important. So why not make a Vanguard Seraphim? Make them better equipped and more like celestians with jump-packs? *shrugs* I always had issues thinking of new "sister" units. But including most previous echlessiarchy stuff + SC sister characters who might change how sisters "play" would be fine by me >_>


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## mahavira

Well, other than the perennial cavalry vs bikes debate, the only troop type I can see remaining to Sisters themselves is stealthy/infiltrating sisters (cue the picture of the "Cherubim" sniper...) like IG storm troopers. Cameoline cloaks, the ability to take sniper rifles or other specialized equipment.

To be honest, I think it's vehicles where the SoB line of battle is lacking. The exorcist has to try to be both artillery and main battle tank, and there's nothing faster than a rhino. While I don't suggest that Sisters should be as mech intensive as IG, the range is a little too thin.


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## Vicktimization

So, I have run across a few interesting things, both confirmed and rumors.

Confirmed: * Am I the only one that noticed that ALL the Sororitas in the WD codex now have bolt pistols as well? That is so awesome! Gone are the days where we have to choose between firing the rapid fire weapons OR assaulting. Bolt Pistols are only 12 inches, but still!*

Rumors: I revisited the "leaked" pages of the April codex that was supposedly going to be released but never was. I am not saying the leak pages are true, but there sure is some interesting ideas in there.

Firstly, the regular Battle Sister is 10 points. I'm horribly biased, but I think that is a good cost (especially with less available types of faith powers and no more 3+ invul save or 5+ psychic defense). Celestians were kinda listed as a Troops choice in our WD codex, and I think that would make sense, considering there's not really a proper place for them anymore if Penitent Engines end up as an elite (which they should!). 

Adeptas Arbites are listed in the leaks as another troops choice, who are more melee and poor at shooting, and from the quick glance I took, tarpitty. I think that would be a neat addition, all fluff discrepancies aside.

I also saw a page that listed some of the special weapons. Looks like regular Battle Sisters could get something called an Arcaballista, that seems to be like a sniper rifle. That'd be quite nice for Dominions with their Scout, and Battle Sisters as well.

And, there's another tank in the leaks, called the Redeemer (from Forge World). It would not be too bad in the Codex, I guess. With taking away Celestine's deep strike and considering what they gave everyone else, I am guessing we'll get something to get us closer, like a Valkyrie or something. That'd be nice.


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## Kettu

The problem with the 'leaked' codex is it was leaked on April 1st.
That and a little while after someone confessed it was an April Fools joke and even showed how they did the scan distortions and talked about the other little tricks as well.


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## Kinglopey

My 2 cents on the new WD Dex is along the lines of many other posters. It seems to bland, granted we only have the 1st half, but I'm a bit disappointed. I was hopping for Zealots and the Repressor, in addition they removed the Assassins. It seems like the selections are actually less in this update.

If the sisters cost get lowered, 1K Son players should expect a price reduction too... They've added a few cool things to the list but I'm really hoping they make up some ground in Wargear, since there's nothing that makes Seraphim troops... :/


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## WallWeasels

Yeah that codex was faked and arbites really won't be in any sisters book for awhile. 

Also Pistols, Krak and Frag were expected and pretty much "paid for no cost" upgrades to any 5th edition codex of half-decent troops. Useful, but hardly required to most sister units as most are not geared towards assault. Krak grenades are a repreave since its, technically, better than hand of the emperor in situations when it comes to punching tanks.

Battle sisters at 10 points still would be a sellout for what they lost compared to what they got. However I cannot see them being cheaper than 10 and nor do I really want to just appear like a useless 3+ power armor horde. I think we'll probably see Celestians being the core troop thats used. Most likely because they will have better weapon options for probably a small gain in points cost over BSS. Regardless...meh

[edit]Kinglopey that seems to be most poeples problems...and mine. I am just really not excited by any content provided so far. Literally and I read every codex that comes out and go ":0 ooo shiny". Hell I read the vampire counts rules and was more excited than these :/


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## Sworn Radical

Vicktimization said:


> ... I the only one that noticed that ALL the Sororitas in the WD codex now have bolt pistols as well? That is so awesome! ...
> 
> And, there's another tank in the leaks, called the Redeemer (from Forge World). It would not be too bad in the Codex, I guess ...



Well no, you're not the only one. Maybe it didn't strike us others as that awesome. They also included grenades you know. :wink:

And they should've rather included or at least updated the stats for the Repressor. Many SoB / WH players use(d) that little darling and it'd have been nice to see it in the new army list.

I highly doubt we'll see additional units in the second part of the list though, GW is going to wait and see if and how the Sisters will sell after the WD _'codex'_ and maybe just maybe might be releasing a bigger codex with new / updated units once we'll see 6th edition 40k. Predictable, sales will be lousy though, given the fact they're only selling sisters in blisters of three apiece (and all metal at that) and considering most stores don't even stock them anymore. I could swear we're going to see a kit of Whinecast Sisters in the not-so-far future though, new models or not.

Here, so much for my early-sunday-mornin'-depression ... :smoke:


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## Revarien

At 9 points a model for regular sisters, I'll play with a base 120 SoB troops (6 slots, assuming they still can take 20/choice) and at 10 points a piece I'll play 100...

Otherwise, if they come back in at 11 points each, I'll just have to redo my current list... and make sure I have more stuff on the board than is killable in 4-5 rounds >.> lol. That's how I've played this current codex (just have more stuff than is killable with 3++ faith powers), but now it just requires more sisters to do that.


----------



## WallWeasels

Revarien said:


> At 9 points a model for regular sisters, I'll play with a base 120 SoB troops (6 slots, assuming they still can take 20/choice) and at 10 points a piece I'll play 100...
> 
> Otherwise, if they come back in at 11 points each, I'll just have to redo my current list... and make sure I have more stuff on the board than is killable in 4-5 rounds >.> lol. That's how I've played this current codex (just have more stuff than is killable with 3++ faith powers), but now it just requires more sisters to do that.


Prepare to face ALOT of "lost combats, ran at -5 LD and sweeped" situations to come up from this. Although possibly changed by wargear options to come, but I highly doubt the book is like it is now, right now leadership is our biggest issue. Fearless is a crutch and a bad one to hang on too (Kyrinov) and the canoness only provides stubborn to one unit. Sister hordes will most likely fail for this reason.

[edit]Also to add to my list of "potential units I may make into my 'currently on hold' fandex: Sisters with "stalker" pattern bolters. Not really "sniper" sisters but certainly the stalker pattern provides most of the effects in what it can do. Not that it terribly fits, but given things in 40k are "made to fit" the existing fluff that doesn't terribly matter. Nothing wrong to imply sisters might require some recon work or potential wet-work now that we are seperated from the INQ again (with means no assassin support or really cool tools like that).


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## SilverTabby

Celestine has 'lost' deep strike? She has a jump pack. Doesn't that give her the rule automatically? I haven't got my BRB to hand. 

Also, on 'losing' Repressors. They weren't in the old codex, they were forgeworld. So if you were using a tank that wasn't in the old book with that book, why would you stop because it isn't in the new one?


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## Sworn Radical

SilverTabby said:


> Celestine has 'lost' deep strike? She has a jump pack. Doesn't that give her the rule automatically? I haven't got my BRB to hand.
> 
> Also, on 'losing' Repressors. They weren't in the old codex, they were forgeworld. So if you were using a tank that wasn't in the old book with that book, why would you stop because it isn't in the new one?



Celestine is equipped w. a jump pack and thus has the Deep Strike USR, it's that easy.

As for Repressors, IMHO they should be included in the new Sisters list because lots of players actually *did *use them. Not the other way 'round ...


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## AlexHolker

mahavira said:


> To be honest, I think it's vehicles where the SoB line of battle is lacking. The exorcist has to try to be both artillery and main battle tank, and there's nothing faster than a rhino. While I don't suggest that Sisters should be as mech intensive as IG, the range is a little too thin.


I've got a few ideas. For unique vehicle upgrades, you've got the Command Pulpit (replace the pintle mount with an extra transport slot, the occupant of which can shoot or use the BoSL as normal) and the Urban Survivability Kit (adds more armour and a riot plough). For vehicles, so far I've got the Samaritan (a Hospitaller field ambulance) and for Apocalypse the Basilica Command Crawler (a small church on tracks as a one-of-a-kind relic, so far using the rules for the Stormlord).


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## Kettu

On the subject of wish-listing I have a few, reading the fluff, they mention more, now then they used to, that Sisters would sooner die then lose a step to the enemy.
SO, Stubborn, not an act of faith, just stubborn all round. An Entire Army of stubborn.
Face it, BoSL was pretty much this anyway.

Also, in relation to acts, how about less points over all but far more powerful. Not just a rending act and a fearless act, but you get to reroll all dice in that phase for that unit.

Other ideas, a Sniper unit with those sniper bolt guns (Maybe even sniper-flamers?:biggrin
Fire-pikes?
Two-team Sisters lugging an Inferno Cannon?

Tanks, I started thinking when Madcow posted that FW tank two or so pages back.
Guard get the Leman Russ an Chimera frames, Marines the Rhino and Land Raider frames, why not give the Sisters a new and unique tank frame so they have Rhino and -?-, maybe something big and full of weaponry, or, like the picture MCC gave, basically a massive tracked gun.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Sisters of Battles main job is to purge witchcraft, heresy and mutation. They used to have a really good anti psyker shield and in the fluff they hunt and capture/kill psykers regularly.
They should in all aspects be the strongest army in the game vs psykers with wargear that nullifies them or outright kill psykers more easily. I wouldn't be surprised if they get options for nullrods and psyocculums for VSS or at the least every HQ. Bolter-stake crossbows as an option of every member of a Celestian squad wouldn't surprise me either.


----------



## hells

Grogbart said:


> Finally all Sister units having the options to replace their frag grenades with defensive grenades (might as well call em phosphor grenades) would also be helpful!


or we could get holy water to throw in the eyes of charging heretics to show them whos boss 



on a more serious note, i was wondering the other day for something unique for battle sisters, what about shrines?

could work like this, doesnt take up a slot (so maybe each canoness you take of something) its immobile, treat it like a veichle, so say av 12/13 allround and bassiclly any battle sister squad withen 24 inches reieves special rules like
- feel no pain : the sisters fight on despite grevious wounds that would fell them to protect the shrine
- furious charge : angered by the hertics acts to defile the holy shrine the sisters anger stregthens their blows

sorta something like that /shrug it suits the army and is something fresh and diffrent from what other armies have, plus you could see some awesome shrines made up :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> Finally all Sister units having the options to replace their frag grenades with defensive grenades (might as well call em phosphor grenades) would also be helpful!


I'd like to see it so that anyone charging a sisters squad with phosphorous grenades treating all terrain as difficult and dangerous. Basically running through a field of phosphor burning at a few thousand degrees can't be all too healthy. Heck some sort of phosphor, napalm and thermite grenade mix. S8 vs vehicles but without 2D6 pen, and if assaulted enemy treats all terrain as dangerous and difficult. When assaulting you opponent halves their I as the incinerating flames makes them hesitate.

If GKs can get over the top grenades why shouldn't the sisters :crazy:



hells said:


> or we could get holy water to throw in the eyes of charging heretics to show them whos boss


Nah, to show them who's boss we should get Jarate - The Jar Based Karate!
It does make sense as if the GKs can use the Sisters blood as haemorrhoid ointment then the sisters themselves should be pissing pure faith!


----------



## SilverTabby

MadCowCrazy said:


> The Sisters of Battles main job is to purge witchcraft, heresy and mutation. They used to have a really good anti psyker shield and in the fluff they hunt and capture/kill psykers regularly.
> They should in all aspects be the strongest army in the game vs psykers with wargear that nullifies them or outright kill psykers more easily. I wouldn't be surprised if they get options for nullrods and psyocculums for VSS or at the least every HQ. Bolter-stake crossbows as an option of every member of a Celestian squad wouldn't surprise me either.


Actually, at their very core the Sisters are the standing army for the Ecclesiarchy. They kill what the Ministorum tells them to. They couldn't take much, if any, of the anti-psyker gear in the last book, that was the domain of the Ordo Hereticus. The Shield of Faith was anti-psychic powers, but gave no actual assistance in hunting and killing psykers. We're likely to get some anti-psyker stuff, but I'm expecting a faith-based selection rather than hereticus one.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> Actually, at their very core the Sisters are the standing army for the Ecclesiarchy. They kill what the Ministorum tells them to. They couldn't take much, if any, of the anti-psyker gear in the last book, that was the domain of the Ordo Hereticus. The Shield of Faith was anti-psychic powers, but gave no actual assistance in hunting and killing psykers. We're likely to get some anti-psyker stuff, but I'm expecting a faith-based selection rather than hereticus one.


I'm sure it says somewhere in the WH codex that either the Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy deals mainly with witches, heretics and mutations. They even added it into a slogan for the Canoness in Soulstorm.


----------



## Grogbart

Happy suggestion time!

I'm more on the side of Faith, being many little effects, which only really appear miraculous, when accomplished in rapid succession!

Tests of Faith (one D6) depending on rank: basic Sisters 5+, Celestians and Seraphim 4+, Canoness and Saints 3+. 
And these Tests could also be used for other things besides AoF, e.g. instant kill tests for special weapons (much like Force weapons), Shield of Faith like anti-psyker saves, sacred cloaks averting instant kill on a successful Test...

Furthermore I would prefer AoF to not be limited by faithpoints. Just allow any available AoF to be attempted only once per phase. Using two AoF in the same phase makes the Test of Faith more difficult by one (5+ -> 6+).

Then I'd like Acts of Faith to be more modular and entangled with the Sisters' wargear. And make em effect not only some of the available wargear (Divine Guidance on power weapons!).
All SoB units have a basic AoF to let them regroup (fearless) in your movement phase. (maybe added with rage to make it interesting)
Additional Acts of Faith can be added by certain unit upgrades:

-Brazier of holy Fire (in form of a torch or backpack-mounted) grants the Squad Superior to fire a Flamer template per battle and adds an Act of Faith to the unit, which grants +1 Str and +1 Ini in melee. 
(Seraphims would have this AoF for free)

-Sarissas (or other similarly processed weapons for Sisters not equipped with boltguns) could grant something like rerolling to wound rolls on charge (or grant the boltguns to be fired as bolt pistols when assaulting, IF Sisters hadn't recived the Space Marine all inclusive packet!!!) additional to making a 'Divine Guidance' like AoF available. Rending against non vehicles in melee, power weapons may additionally reroll failed to wound rolls.
(Celestian Close Combat Squads would have this AoF for free)

-Blessed Ammunition would grant two AoF. 
One being 'Divine Guidance' like again, this time for shooting. Making Bolt weapons rending against non vehicles, Flame weapons -1 to their AP and Melta weapons reroll failed to wound or armour penetration rolls.
The other one would make Bolt weapons ignore cover, Flame weapons +1 to Str and Melta weapons require any saves to be rerolled against them.
(Celestian Shooting Squads would have both of these for free)

-Special purity seals grant 'Spirit of the Martyr', which I would tone down to only giving a 4++, except for models with a Rosarius or similar, then its 3++ or even 2++ (can't make up my mind considering not spending Faithpoints, 3+ Test of Faith and so on...)

Garnish the whole thing with wargear options like:
-Simulacrum Imperialis, allowing Tests of Faith for Acts of Faith to be rerolled
-Litany of Faith, allowing to combine two acts of Faith without penalty (HQs only)
...


And you have pretty much, what I dream Faith to be like


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm sure it says somewhere in the WH codex that either the Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy deals mainly with witches, heretics and mutations. They even added it into a slogan for the Canoness in Soulstorm.


Wow...I actually read that in her voice :laugh: 

I dont think Equipment should add AoF personally. However what would be kind of cool is buying squads "unlocks" their faith for the army. Celestians have Furious Charge as an AoF? Okay well buy one unit and the entire army can use it. Personally faith should be done as leadership as more an act-of-will rather than an act of "sorry the emperor rolled a 3...you cant do that."
That or, if you wanted to add more complexity by making modifiers for each act of faith. Spirit of the Martyr? LD test at -2  Personally if you were to use a random dice off for it, rather than a specific stat-test, I'd like to see a "40k casting" style of bidding dice.


But when it comes to faith I think it should run down like this: Acts should be easy to perform but when spammed you'll run out quickly. By giving faith MORE options in more viabile situations you force CHOICE and TACTICS rather than "oh I fired my bolters I better use DG to kill shit". You should have to make a viable choice between charging that unit with a +S AoF or shooting with DG or even combing two strong combat ones to possibly wipe them out. You didn't kill the squad after busting two points? That was sure a waste *tut tut*. So really acts either have to go a few ways"
Small effects that are basically 100% reliable and unlimited: effects will be used always and thus undermine their role in the army and just be like "constantly activated USR"
Massive effects that are completely unreliable and unlimited: To random to be competitive and will only go off when you already overkilled the unit.
Strong effects that are limited in quantity but reliable enough to be functional: the marriage between the two and balanced because they are, in essence, limited in how often you use them. This is what the previous codex tried to be...but faith was unbalanced because you really only used about 2 powers a game...with 1-2 powers being used occasionally (hand of the emperor to punch tanks and light of the emperor to regroup) and some never. This is why I still liked the Chapter Approved Sisters of Battle faith because despite not amazing (although I loved the old passion) it was reliable as fuck. 
But faith needs to be balanced that it is not a catch-22 in all situations because faith CANNOT be stopped by the opponent. It is, basically, a psychic power that can't be stopped. However, smart opponants could prevent usage of some. If you used a SotM to 3++ a 20 blob of sisters...and there was another target to shoot at. Who will the player kill? the stormshield sisters or the rhinos/other sisters?  SotM was balanced because it had to be used preemptively to protect a unit.

[edit]Grogbart: despite your powers are interesting they read to blocky. Defining each weapons effect ends up seeming messy and hard to understand at face value. You'll end up preaching to an opponent to explain each powers exact function for that unit just to get them to understand it. DG is simple: 6 to wound = AP1/PW. Due to balance reasons it really can't be "rending" because that gives a bolter a plausible penetration value of up to 13. So really just saying AP1/PW is fine. 

Originally my fandex had each unit having a special unique power and then the global list of powers for the entire army. [edit2]-snip- I dont want this to get to "fandex discussion" rather than "rumors about sisters". So I'll gladly talk to anyone in PM form or another thread. I think I still ahve the PDF of what I had done so far on my fandex before stopping from like 2 months of writters block :| I thought it looked pretty snazzy (but I am abit bias)
[edit3]My god I just realized how many errors I had in this. Kind of makes me forgive some mistakes GW does :laugh:


----------



## mahavira

Alas, if you look in the 'new fluff' there is no reference to fighting witches in particular. I think psychic defense will be way down (perhaps not as far down as IG, but down).


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## WallWeasels

mahavira said:


> Alas, if you look in the 'new fluff' there is no reference to fighting witches in particular. I think psychic defense will be way down (perhaps not as far down as IG, but down).


Well their jobi s more indirectly to kill psykers. Apart from commonly being seen on blackships the church doesn't like psykers...and thus sisters do not either. In terms of sisters being geared to kill psykers? Not much on this...but mostly since we don't have much on sisters anyway. Which is our exact problem fluff-wise...we are never really mentioned much


----------



## Troublehalf

I read through the codex again..... and I started to weep.

They still seem pretty meh. I just hope when the proper codex is released they buff them.... I've always wanted a small Sisters of Battle army.

Sisters Repentia.... no armor save at all.... 6+ Ward Save only thing keeping them alive. 

Jacobs has a great buff when in a unit.... throw him in with a Cannoness and some other squad and they'll be pretty good!

The Celestine Command Squad.... how does that work? Do you only get to have one of each, or could you make a bigger one? Can they join squads with the Cannoness? I also didn't seem to find any info on what the Hospitaler and Laud Hailer do :\


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## WallWeasels

Troublehalf said:


> I read through the codex again..... and I started to weep.
> They still seem pretty meh. I just hope when the proper codex is released they buff them.... I've always wanted a small Sisters of Battle army.
> 
> Sisters Repentia.... no armor save at all.... 6+ Ward Save only thing keeping them alive.
> 
> Jacobs has a great buff when in a unit.... throw him in with a Cannoness and some other squad and they'll be pretty good!
> 
> The Celestine Command Squad.... how does that work? Do you only get to have one of each, or could you make a bigger one? Can they join squads with the Cannoness? I also didn't seem to find any info on what the Hospitaler and Laud Hailer do :


1/ Repentia have FNP and a 6++ so they do have "a save" and it's better than the flat 4+ they had before...although still not amazing.
2/ Yes throw two characters in a unit and it might do damage...or just pop Jacobus in a conclave with 4Crusaders and 5 DCA and roll out 25 attacks from the DCA alone.
3/ It would be a retinue, so the canoness can join the squad or not join the squad...thats your choice. Hospitaller will, guaranteed, give FNP to the unit and the Laud Hailer...we don't know. My best guess is it will confer Aoe Furious Charge. Most likely you will be able to buy one Command Squad per Canoness bought.

however yes, it is quite meh. It is boring and fairly unoriginal. But from what we have heard this is just a "lay away" until 6th edition (next summer). We might even see a codex in early 2012 so...have some hope this crap won't last long.


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## MadCowCrazy

As mentioned above

1: FNP and 6++ for Sisters Repentia is a HUGE boost compared to their old 4+ armour save. Now they get saves from AP3+ with the FNP and you get to do the 6++ before.
S6 will still bone them though but most S6 weapons have AP4 or better afaik so it's still a huge boost.

2. We dont use SC at my local club (something I'm trying to change) but Jacobus does indeed have some really good buffs and abilities. Personally I'd go with Celestine though but it will all depend on the points cost. Celestine is rumoured to be around the price of a Grand Master so around 180pts. It will all come down to how nerfed the Canoness is, from the rumours it seems she isn't exactly something you'd want to take.

3. We simply dont know yet, it could be similar to an IG command squad (does SM have them too?) and their Act of Faith sure makes it seem like it. You will for sure be able to throw in some heavy weapons in there (why else would their AOF be Relentless? So they can move and fire 1 shot with their bolters?), how many remains to be seen though.

All in all this wd dex can be summarized with one word: "Meh"
I'm going to GD UK again this year and I will try to get my sweaty paws on Cruddace and/or Ward to get their side of the story.
I will be taking questions to ask them once we have digested the Sep issue of WD with all the points costs etc.


----------



## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> As mentioned above
> 
> 1: FNP and 6++ for Sisters Repentia is a HUGE boost compared to their old 4+ armour save. Now they get saves from AP3+ with the FNP and you get to do the 6++ before.
> S6 will still bone them though but most S6 weapons have AP4 or better afaik so it's still a huge boost.


You know what negates feel No Pain on Repentia? The humble Mutlilaser and Scatterlaser amongst a few other weapons. Both are AP 6 yet neatly get around Feel No Pain being Strength 6. Its not a complaint really since Hotshot Las Pistols/Guns would have gotten around the 4+ armor save they had but don't ignore Feel No Pain. To me its 6 of one, half dozen of the other.



MadCowCrazy said:


> 2. We dont use SC at my local club (something I'm trying to change) but Jacobus does indeed have some really good buffs and abilities. Personally I'd go with Celestine though but it will all depend on the points cost. Celestine is rumoured to be around the price of a Grand Master so around 180pts. It will all come down to how nerfed the Canoness is, from the rumours it seems she isn't exactly something you'd want to take.


I don't really get that mentality since thier are whole slices of armies you can't field when you do that but to each his own I guess. I'm betting that Sisters will need at least one of thiers to stay remotely competetive.



MadCowCrazy said:


> 3. We simply dont know yet, it could be similar to an IG command squad (does SM have them too?) and their Act of Faith sure makes it seem like it. You will for sure be able to throw in some heavy weapons in there (why else would their AOF be Relentless? So they can move and fire 1 shot with their bolters?), how many remains to be seen though.


The Sororitas Command Squad isn't really like the IG command squad as the Company Commander is not an IC and is actually part of the squad. Unless they left their brain totally behind when they wrote this new codex I don't think it sgoign to work that way. Even Dark Eldar don't have a retinue for their T 3 IC. I think retinues are a thing of the past.



MadCowCrazy said:


> All in all this wd dex can be summarized with one word: "Meh"
> I'm going to GD UK again this year and I will try to get my sweaty paws on Cruddace and/or Ward to get their side of the story.
> I will be taking questions to ask them once we have digested the Sep issue of WD with all the points costs etc.


Good luck with that and I look forward to seeing what either of them has to say whether the codex is good or bad as I don't think we are going to get the designer diary articles that Blood Angels or Dark Eldar had.


----------



## Winterous

andrewm9 said:


> You know what negates feel No Pain on Repentia? The humble Mutlilaser and Scatterlaser amongst a few other weapons. Both are AP 6 yet neatly get around Feel No Pain being Strength 6. Its not a complaint really since Hotshot Las Pistols/Guns would have gotten around the 4+ armor save they had but don't ignore Feel No Pain. To me its 6 of one, half dozen of the other.


But those weapons generally aren't taken in large numbers.
S5 or less weapons with Ap4 or better are MUCH more common than S6 or more weapons with worse than Ap4.
Their durability has been hugely improved.


----------



## andrewm9

Winterous said:


> But those weapons generally aren't taken in large numbers.
> S5 or less weapons with Ap4 or better are MUCH more common than S6 or more weapons with worse than Ap4.
> Their durability has been hugely improved.


How many Chimeras do you see on the table for an Imperial Guard list? Every one of those has a multilaser on it as basic equipment. The running joke around my FLGS is that a Guardsman's armor save is 12/10/10. I can easily fit 8+ on a 2000 point list for them. They are good enough and cheap that there are very good reasons for taking them.

Again I am not complaining about it. I'm not seeing the huge difference in survivability when it comes to raw shooting though. Most small arms won't ignore either save. The 6+ invuln save is nice don't get me wrong but I think we'll be saving a model or two so where we weren't before depending on terrain.


----------



## Shandathe

You're missing something big though andrewm9... there is - right now, at least - no rule in the WDex that keeps Repentia from being in a transport. While 6++ and FNP is something of an upgrade, *that* is the main reason I believe they might actually make it to something juicy for once.

Mind you, I still want a damn price break in point cost


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> You're missing something big though andrewm9... there is - right now, at least - no rule in the WDex that keeps Repentia from being in a transport. While 6++ and FNP is something of an upgrade, *that* is the main reason I believe they might actually make it to something juicy for once.
> 
> Mind you, I still want a damn price break in point cost


Was just about to post the same thing.
Now if we could just get some fast transports, scouting a Vendetta or Valkyrie and then jumping out 12 Sisters Repentia or however many they can transport could be a pretty nasty combination.
Now if we could just get the old +2S faith back for S10 Repentia, that would be fearsome indeed!

Perhaps they could stretch the Repressor out so you can put 20 models in it and call it the Bang Bus crazy: for anyone who knows this reference).


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

Shandathe said:


> there is - right now, at least - no rule in the WDex that keeps Repentia from being in a transport


Which was my first thought when I read their rules. I had such a big grin, my friends were a bit worried I had snapped. 

I went over the new stats and rules with my friend who got me into Warhammer 40k and he believes that the Sisters were actually toned down to the level of current codices [his reasoning being that Sisters had too much synergy, and the Book of St. Lucious has always bothered him].

I personally don't think all the changes were that bad. I get to field my Dominios with Scout and Retributors with Rending [I love Retributors, it pains me to lose the third Exorcist, but I just love to field those girls with heavy bolters]. I knd of like all of my Celestians having 2 attacks [not that I expect them to survive much in CC, but still, it's a better chance than 1A] but I3 is kind of a harsh price for that little blessing.

Sure, we don't get Faith as we all knew it, but the new system will have me trying to use it more [it's up to 6 tries per turn, not 8 per game [in a 1500pt list], I mean]; sure we can be unlucky and have an "all 1 roll" [Dice Gods do have a nasty sense of humor, you know]; but all in all form a mostly heretical point of view [I rarely used Acts of Faith, I must admit ] I think they can still fight.

I still have to wait and see what comes in the September Issue to finally form an opinion, but so far I only see that it's going to be a bit more challenging to play an Army wich, by admision of several members of several boards I've introduced myself in, was NOT a beginner's army to begin with.


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## MadCowCrazy

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you move a transport 12", jump out within 2", fleet D6 and assault 6 for a new threat range of max 26" for the Repentia? Their old Threat range was 18" so it's a little boost isn't it?


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## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you move a transport 12", jump out within 2", fleet D6 and assault 6 for a new threat range of max 26" for the Repentia? Their old Threat range was 18" so it's a little boost isn't it?


You're wrong. This is only possible using assault ramps or open-topped transport, neither of which are available to the Sisters.


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## mahavira

One reason I always kind of wanted Land Raider Redeemers for sisters (that and it isn't fair that all the really cool flamer stuff belongs to other armies when sisters should be the flamiest).


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## WallWeasels

Shandathe said:


> You're missing something big though andrewm9... there is - right now, at least - no rule in the WDex that keeps Repentia from being in a transport. While 6++ and FNP is something of an upgrade, *that* is the main reason I believe they might actually make it to something juicy for once.
> 
> Mind you, I still want a damn price break in point cost


The lack of rule still doesnt mean they get a transport option. Nor really can I see that unit thats stripped of all its equipment being able to request a transport vehicle  

Regardless fleet doesnt allow a unit to charge out of a non-open topped vehicle. So their effective charge range is 13-18 inchs when on foot.


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## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> You're missing something big though andrewm9... there is - right now, at least - no rule in the WDex that keeps Repentia from being in a transport. While 6++ and FNP is something of an upgrade, *that* is the main reason I believe they might actually make it to something juicy for once.
> 
> Mind you, I still want a damn price break in point cost


No I'm not really missing it. Believe me. I thought the same thing until I realized that the first time I get one blown up Im probably losing 2 or 3 of the girls then they get assaulted and die before getting to strike blows since its not my turn. If by chance I get out after having stopped (assuming I live a turn to stand the transport still), I'm still striking last with 9 power weapons. They still lose to most dedicated assault units. Oh they do damage alright but I will have to see if its worth it based on their cost. I bet they are still 20 points each, but perhaps I am letting my pessimism get the best of me. I will resevr final judgement until i see the 2nd half. Maybe they are going to dramatically change the Eviscerator though I kind of doubt it.


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## WallWeasels

Bad news everyone 

GW now has sisters on the army list as "sisters of battle" and...


HQ: Conclaves units are under this section
Elites: Battle sisters are under this section so celestians are probably still elite
Troops: just battle sisters (no surprise here)
FA: seraphim/dominions (none here either)
Heavy: Penitents still heavy? Ugh well there goes that idea 

Although it is worthy to note that the units have not updated their profiles and thus could just be remnants of previous stuffs selections. As, I think, INQ units were under HQ because of the INQ lords and penitents were obviously heavy and celestians elite. So maybe just a flub for now...I hope :V


----------



## Creon

Conclaves are under HQ, but Preachers are under Elite. So we're in a bit of a quandry right now as to where they apply. Note the Immolator is a dedicated transport


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## WallWeasels

Well we knew the immolator was a dedicated transport.
Preachers may not be able to take conclaves (they are just 1W after all) but Confessors might. Although there is no "direct" model for confessors so I am assuming thats why they are not listed there. 

Oddly units have had their fluff updated but not their rules (despite we know their rules + statlines already). So could just be a general GW website cock-up...which isn't uncommon given Karamazov was a fantasy pre-order for around a month


----------



## andrewm9

Creon said:


> Conclaves are under HQ, but Preachers are under Elite. So we're in a bit of a quandry right now as to where they apply. Note the Immolator is a dedicated transport


It was one before also. It just had the dubious honor of being able to be taken as Heavy Support without people inside.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is the complete products list for the "new" Sisters of Battle. If this will be the final layout for the Sisters remains to be seen but this is what we've got so far.

Sisters of Battle Product List

HQ
Saint Celestine
Arch-confessor Kyrinov
Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith
Sisters of Battle Canoness
Sisters of Battle Dialogus
Sisters of Battle Hospitaller
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Blessed Banner
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Crusader 1
Crusader 2
Death Cult Assassins
Arco-Flagellants

Elites
Sisters of Battle Sisters Repentia
Sisters of Battle Mistress of Repentance
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Preacher with Chainsword
Preacher with Laspistol
Preacher with Sword
Missionary with Chainsword
Missionary with Plasma Gun

Troops
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2

Dedicated Transports
Space Marine Rhino
Sisters of Battle Immolator

Fast Attack
Sisters of Battle Seraphim Superior with Power Sword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Seraphim 1
Sisters of Battle Seraphim 2
Sisters of Battle Seraphim with Hand Flamers
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Battle Sister with Storm Bolter 2
Battle Sister with Flamer 1
Battle Sister with Flamer 2
Battle Sister with Meltagun 1
Battle Sister with Meltagun 2

Heavy Support
Sisters of Battle Exorcist
Sisters of Battle Penitent Engine
Battle Sisters
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter
Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Battle Sister with Multi-Melta
Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Maul
Sisters of Battle Superior with Power Sword and Bolter
Sisters of Battle Superior with Bolter

Bitz
Sister of Battle Shrine


----------



## SGMAlice

I have just noticed this change myself.
A lot of them are repeated multiple times, particularily Battle sisters; having an entry in every FoC slot on the lists.
You would think they would have gotten it right before putting them up.

SGMAlice


----------



## WallWeasels

SGMAlice said:


> I have just noticed this change myself.
> A lot of them are repeated multiple times, particularily Battle sisters; having an entry in every FoC slot on the lists.
> You would think they would have gotten it right before putting them up.
> 
> SGMAlice


This is because battle sisters "box" is what ALL sisters come from...so the online store can't really call them "celestians" when they are the "battle sister" boxset.

Also they posted the new getting started page and a thing on cruddace's sisters so far. Notes I can take are:
-dominions can take 2 special weapons per 5 models
-celestian command squads can get up to 10 models
-retributors confirmed to take heavy flamers
-GW thinks I3 and 2 attacks makes celestians combat specialists
-6++ save = combat is no problem. Literally not joking..."Whilst Battle Sisters lack the genetically enhanced toughness of a Space Marine, they are still encased in power armour and all have a 6+ invulnerable save." They also act like I3 S3 A1 sisters charging with a priest makes them good at combat :V


----------



## Creon

There are no preachers in a SOB army, either. I'm assuming THEY are the Ecclesiarchy models.


----------



## Grogbart

WallWeasels said:


> Also they posted the new getting started page and a thing on cruddace's sisters so far. Notes I can take are:
> -dominions can take 2 special weapons per 5 models
> -celestian command squads can get up to 10 models
> -retributors confirmed to take heavy flamers
> -GW thinks I3 and 2 attacks makes celestians combat specialists
> -6++ save = combat is no problem. Literally not joking..."Whilst Battle Sisters lack the genetically enhanced toughness of a Space Marine, they are still encased in power armour and all have a 6+ invulnerable save." They also act like I3 S3 A1 sisters charging with a priest makes them good at combat :V


...
-GW seems to have forgotten they included parts, to also build Rhinos from the Immolator-box! Or is there other reason for the SM Rhino being listed?


----------



## TheSpore

Grogbart said:


> ...
> -GW seems to have forgotten they included parts, to also build Rhinos from the Immolator-box! Or is there other reason for the SM Rhino being listed?


If you build the immolater correctly you can use it as both, it can essentially be two kits in one just dount glue all the parts down


----------



## andrewm9

Grogbart said:


> ...
> -GW seems to have forgotten they included parts, to also build Rhinos from the Immolator-box! Or is there other reason for the SM Rhino being listed?


So they can sell more Space Marine rhinos?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

An interesting thing is that you can fine Heavy Bolter, Flamer and Multi-melta in Troops, Elite and Heavy Support.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the listing before we get the WD, they could simply just have copy pasted everything in from the old sections and added a bit too much.
I still hope PE are Elite or FA as I dont want them to compete with the Exorcist.

Priest in Elite could mean they are just like in the WH dex, a 0-5 slot dude you can put into different squads.

Henchmen under HQ has me a bit worried, the entry said they keep the squads small as to the rule of no men under arms. Does this mean we get a max of 0-6 in a squad?
I hope not but it wouldn't surprise me to be honest.


GW has a SoB article up as well for today which only purpose is to promote the miniatures... Gotta love how they have 7 Battle Sisters in the picture for the Battle Sisters blister yet you only get 3...


----------



## Grogbart

TheSpore said:


> If you build the immolater correctly you can use it as both, it can essentially be two kits in one just dount glue all the parts down


Pardon me, if my English might not be sufficient enough to realise the error myself, but where exactly did I state something contrary?


----------



## Creon

Rhino added because it's two dollars cheaper. In case you really didn't want sisters icons on your rhinos.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There is also a new Getting Started article.

It answers a few questions.

"The Exorcist is the longest ranged weapon in the Battle Sisters arsenal - able to fire D6 Strength 8 missiles a turn up to 48"."
So the Exorcist is still 48" D6 S8, most likely AP1 as before.

"Sister Dialogus to spread the word of the Emperor and make his foes quake with fear."
They come with Laud Hailers which lowered the opponents Ld by -1, so I guess it's safe to say they will do the same now.

"To enable them to fulfil this role, their choice of weapons in the army list allows them to take two special weapons for every five Dominions."
BOOOOOOO!

"thanks to their heavy bolters. But for more close up power, Retributors can also be armed with heavy flamers and multi-meltas."
So they can now take Heavy Flamers, would you really waste a HS slot on 4 heavy flamers?

"Ecclesiarchy Priests will often accompany the Orders Militant into battle and when they do so, they frequently bring a Battle Conclave with them. These groups are formed of Arco-flagellants, Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins to make excellent counter-attacking squads."
Question is how many of each they are allowed to take and if Elite or not...


----------



## Midge913

MadCowCrazy said:


> "To enable them to fulfil this role, their choice of weapons in the army list allows them to take two special weapons for every five Dominions."
> BOOOOOOO!


That is the nail in the coffin for me. Looks like my Sisters are going to get stuffed in a box for the foreseeable future.


----------



## andrewm9

Midge913 said:


> That is the nail in the coffin for me. Looks like my Sisters are going to get stuffed in a box for the foreseeable future.


Why does it have to be the nail in the coffin? Its just one sqaud. Everything else appears to have a better wargear selection than before with what little we know so far. I base this on the fact that heavy bolters, heavy flamers, and multi-meltas seem to be available all over the place along with the usual special weapons. There are also grenades and bolt pistols if we were looking for options (small consolation I know).


----------



## Sworn Radical

So, it's two melta guns or flamers per five Dominions ? 
How generous, really.
If this proves to be true then there'd be absolutely no reason to field Dominions any longer ... hooray for cutting down on people's options in favor of more mech-hammer ... uke:


----------



## Katie Drake

Sworn Radical said:


> So, it's two melta guns or flamers per five Dominions ?
> How generous, really.
> If this proves to be true then there'd be absolutely no reason to field Dominions any longer ... hooray for cutting down on people's options in favor of more mech-hammer ... uke:


Two meltaguns in a five man squad of potentially 10 (or so) point models is pretty good when said models Scout and have BS4.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> Two meltaguns in a five man squad of potentially 10 (or so) point models is pretty good when said models Scout and have BS4.


It'll just mean immolators won't be used much at all now. >_>


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> It'll just mean immolators won't be used much at all now. >_>


Probably not, at least not for the heavy flamers, but I can see multi-melta Immolators being quite popular. I know Marine armies would kill to have twin-linked multi-melta Razorbacks.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> Probably not, at least not for the heavy flamers, but I can see multi-melta Immolators being quite popular. I know Marine armies would kill to have twin-linked multi-melta Razorbacks.


What marines want is hardly a concern in a book that lacks everything else marines do have.


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> What marines want is hardly a concern in a book that lacks everything else marines do have.


That's a pretty pessimistic view.

Sisters can do lots of things Marines can't do... I think you know that, too.


----------



## Revarien

I just hope the seraphim keep their infernus pistols... there is no mention of them at all in the 'getting started' blurb on them, but they mention the flame pistols and bolt pistols.... I'll be sorely disappointed without those.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> That's a pretty pessimistic view.
> 
> Sisters can do lots of things Marines can't do... I think you know that, too.


Not really. The only thing sisters can do that marines cannot is faith, the exorcist, and that's about it. The rest, and even faiths effects in themselves, can be granted through other means that are superior or equal. The only real "bonus" sisters have is a lower points per model at the cost of WS/S/T/I stats.

Be as optimistic as you but this is a poorly written ruleset from the get-go. The only players acting like anything in this extremely interests them are people who don't play sisters in the first place. The rest are just dealing with it.


----------



## Katie Drake

WallWeasels said:


> Be as optimistic as you but this is a poorly written ruleset from the get-go. The only players acting like anything in this extremely interests them are people who don't play sisters in the first place. The rest are just dealing with it.


That's a really bold statement when you haven't seen the second half of it.


----------



## WallWeasels

Katie Drake said:


> That's a really bold statement when you haven't seen the second half of it.


and it'll be fun putting words in my or your mouth depending on the results of it. But the first half leaves little hope that they suddenly decided to pick it up in part 2. There are not just problems with rules, its the design concept behind it...and that'll show in the rest of the rules too.


----------



## Revarien

Btw... when will we see the second half? The week of the 22nd or the 29th?


----------



## WallWeasels

last saturday of the month is the 28th. We should see "previews" and scans up to a week before hand.


----------



## Necrosis

After reading the GW article, I think GW has not even played a single game of 40k.

GW: Sisters are awesome at long range, they have the Exorcist Tank. Sisters are also excellent in close combat cause Celestians have two attacks and can use an act of faith to become S4!

So effectively GW wants use to rely on one type of tank to solve all our long range problem and think Celestians are good in close combat despite being I3, T3 and having to rely on a rule that the Codex itself says that you shouldn't rely on.


----------



## andrewm9

Katie Drake said:


> That's a really bold statement when you haven't seen the second half of it.


There are few things we don't have much information on since we pretty much know all the weapons we are likely to get. The few things we have to guess at are the Simulacrum Imperialis, Laud Hailers, Sacred Banner, Neural whips, the relic reference from the Sororitas Cmd Squad, and of course point values. There might be a few more things like some holy ammo and incendiary ammo for heavy bolters. For the vast majority of things we pretty much know what to expect. I'm talking abotu the usual suspects liek Eviscerators, bolters, meltas, flamers, and power swords. Thats about 90% of all weapons that Sisters wield aklong with the occasional plasma pistol. I doubt the few items I have mentioned will radically change the codex unless the models get extremely cheap. Lowerng the point cost to 10 and dropping Rhinos to 40 points (remember we have 6+ invun save now) isn't a huge help unless the additonal gear is also similarly cheaper. I'm hopeful but realistic.


----------



## Necrosis

I will be disappointed if rhinos are 40 points each due to the 6+ invu save. I really don't want to pay 5 points for a 6+ invu save.


----------



## Midge913

Necrosis said:


> After reading the GW article, I think GW has not even played a single game of 40k.
> 
> GW: Sisters are awesome at long range, they have the Exorcist Tank. Sisters are also excellent in close combat cause Celestians have two attacks and can use an act of faith to become S4!
> 
> So effectively GW wants use to rely on one type of tank to solve all our long range problem and think Celestians are good in close combat despite being I3, T3 and having to rely on a rule that the Codex itself says that you shouldn't rely on.


My sentiments exactly. The only thing, in my opinion, that they haven't taken a shat on is the excorcist. The Acts of Faith system, that used to be the bread and butter of the SoB, is now just a bunch of generic tripe that takes them from being a little more than crap, to just about mediocre. 

Celestians used to be my favorite unit, now with craptacular stats, no more preferred enemy special rule, and no ability to up their combat prowess, other than to make them strenght 4, they may be able to hold their own against Imperial Guardsmen. 

Dominions used to be swanky with the ability to take 4 special weapons right off the bat. Now you have to take 10 sisters to get that many. No more 4 meltagirls rolling around in an Immolator, which incidentally has lost any and all value. 

To me they took an army that had a lot of character and flexibilty and turned it into a dull and bland version that lacks any sort of uniqueness. 

I will be more than happy to eat my words if the second half of the 'codex' give us something spectacular as far as the mechanics of building a list, but until that time I am in the camp of the severely disappointed. 

Its a good thing my gaming group will have no issues with me playing the third edition codex.


----------



## andrewm9

Necrosis said:


> I will be disappointed if rhinos are 40 points each due to the 6+ invu save. I really don't want to pay 5 points for a 6+ invu save.


Grey Knight rhinos are 40 points thanks to Fortitude which can inflict a penetrating hit to them if they roll badly so why not pay for a 6+ invuln save too. I'm not saying it will be good but thats what I expect.


----------



## Necrosis

Everything that made sisters unique and different is now gone. I feel like I'm playing space marine lite now. I feel like blood angels are more unique from space marines then sisters of battle are now. There is nothing in these army that makes me excitied or looks fun to use. Also I'm not saying this army is bad, I'm just saying it looks uninteresting and boring.


----------



## Rakaziel

From what I read here I wonder if the new codex is even worth buying. 
Currently I play my sisters as GK henchmen list with dreadknights as pentient engines or as Salamanders (the explanation for the S4 T4 stats of the latter is the replacing of their muscles with bionics and reinforcing their bones with metal during initation - without anesthesia, as a test of faith)

They made the same mistake with the SoB codex as they did with the CSM codex. 
40K without fluff rules is like decoffeinated coffee.


----------



## andrewm9

Rakaziel said:


> From what I read here I wonder if the new codex is even worth buying.
> Currently I play my sisters as GK henchmen list with dreadknights as pentient engines or as Salamanders (the explanation for the S4 T4 stats of the latter is the replacing of their muscles with bionics and reinforcing their bones with metal during initation - without anesthesia, as a test of faith)
> 
> They made the same mistake with the SoB codex as they did with the CSM codex.
> 40K without fluff rules is like decoffeinated coffee.


I wouldn't give up with seeing the next half of the codex. Sisters players are a gloomy lot. I know because I am one of them, but give it chance before throwing the idea away just yet. The current WH codex is good. I'm not sure this will be an improvement, but its what we will have to work with.


----------



## SilverTabby

WallWeasels said:


> Bad news everyone
> 
> GW now has sisters on the army list as "sisters of battle" and...
> 
> 
> HQ: Conclaves units are under this section
> Elites: Battle sisters are under this section so celestians are probably still elite
> Troops: just battle sisters (no surprise here)
> FA: seraphim/dominions (none here either)
> Heavy: Penitents still heavy? Ugh well there goes that idea
> 
> Although it is worthy to note that the units have not updated their profiles and thus could just be remnants of previous stuffs selections. As, I think, INQ units were under HQ because of the INQ lords and penitents were obviously heavy and celestians elite. So maybe just a flub for now...I hope :V


You're assuming the Sales Webteam have access to the army lists before they become widely available... :wink: 

I wouldn't put too much faith in these changes. We won't know for sure until the WD actually comes out.


----------



## Shandathe

andrewm9 said:


> I wouldn't give up with seeing the next half of the codex. Sisters players are a gloomy lot. I know because I am one of them, but give it chance before throwing the idea away just yet. The current WH codex is good. I'm not sure this will be an improvement, but its what we will have to work with.


In our defense, we have lots of reasons to be gloomy. Barring some serious surprises, the next half will make sure it's not an improvement - and I'm not planning on working with it, thank you very much. Witch Hunters has served me well for far too many years and it's looking like it'll serve me for quite a few more.


----------



## Troublehalf

Looks like I'm going to go Grey Knights after all.

I liked SoB because of the uniqueness... but it seems to of gone. I don't see why they couldn't of boost them but keep the uniqueness.

So.. at least stat wise the Grey Knights are different... have unique weapons and abilities, which is what I like! Their fluff has been fucked... but I love their look and uniqueness.

So... I shall be buying a GK army and then a small SoB (maybe 500-1000) for the sake of it. Shame I 1. Suck at painting and 2. Seriouslly ill..... I'll never be able to paint the GK well.

Still need to count my Lizardmen and get my friend to fix the colours up.


----------



## ufoturtle081

Rakaziel said:


> From what I read here I wonder if the new codex is even worth buying.
> 
> Currently I play my sisters as GK henchmen list with dreadknights as pentient engines or as Salamanders (the explanation for the S4 T4 stats of the latter is the replacing of their muscles with bionics and reinforcing their bones with metal during initation - without anesthesia, as a test of faith)
> 
> 
> They made the same mistake with the SoB codex as they did with the CSM codex.
> 
> 40K without fluff rules is like decoffeinated coffee.


When the Dark Eldar codex came out, I thought: GO GW FOR TRANSFERING FLUFF INTO THE ACUTUAL GAMEPLAY. Power from pain was a great idea that helps bring the game to life and keep it interesting. I really hoped GW would keep making unique fluff related rules but oh well, GW fails. 

No wonder why I primarily play Warmachine/Hordes now. Tons of fluff related rules and endless list-building in which many builds per faction are competive as well as all factions are equally competitive and updated.


----------



## WallWeasels

Troublehalf said:


> Looks like I'm going to go Grey Knights after all.
> 
> I liked SoB because of the uniqueness... but it seems to of gone. I don't see why they couldn't of boost them but keep the uniqueness.
> 
> So.. at least stat wise the Grey Knights are different... have unique weapons and abilities, which is what I like! Their fluff has been fucked... but I love their look and uniqueness.
> 
> So... I shall be buying a GK army and then a small SoB (maybe 500-1000) for the sake of it. Shame I 1. Suck at painting and 2. Seriouslly ill..... I'll never be able to paint the GK well.
> 
> Still need to count my Lizardmen and get my friend to fix the colours up.


Sisters have had their unique stuff taken and used by other armies for awhile. Its pretty much been standard since day 1 :laugh:


----------



## mahavira

andrewm9 said:


> No I'm not really missing it. Believe me. I thought the same thing until I realized that the first time I get one blown up Im probably losing 2 or 3 of the girls then they get assaulted and die before getting to strike blows since its not my turn. If by chance I get out after having stopped (assuming I live a turn to stand the transport still), I'm still striking last with 9 power weapons. They still lose to most dedicated assault units. Oh they do damage alright but I will have to see if its worth it based on their cost. I bet they are still 20 points each, but perhaps I am letting my pessimism get the best of me. I will resevr final judgement until i see the 2nd half. Maybe they are going to dramatically change the Eviscerator though I kind of doubt it.


Eviscerators are in the IG codex as an option for priests, and there they are chainfists, same as before, so almost certainly not.


----------



## mahavira

Oh, and anyone want to take bets as to whether acro flagellants have S4 or 5 in the army list?


----------



## rasolyo

S4. Just because they're SoB arcos.

If the new website is of any indication, then there should be some viable form of immolator spam to emerge from the new dex, although since immolators lost their magic, it'll probably be a rhino and melta spam variant.


----------



## TheSpore

Given the nature of the game currently I see nothing but melta melta melta. Who really use flame weapons anyway, though I think I might just for the shear craziness.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> Given the nature of the game currently I see nothing but melta melta melta. Who really use flame weapons anyway, though I think I might just for the shear craziness.


/me raises hand...

I guess I will have to run some Retributors with heavy flamers if I want to be somewhat evil...

I drive up in my Immolator, jump out with my 5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers! I line them up over those pesky Grey Knights! Ahh, 4 GKs under each template! I use Divine Guidance and fucking fail the test!!! I kill 1 GK and get ASSaulted like a skinny guy in prison...


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> /me raises hand...
> 
> I guess I will have to run some Retributors with heavy flamers if I want to be somewhat evil...
> 
> I drive up in my Immolator, jump out with my 5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers! I line them up over those pesky Grey Knights! Ahh, 4 GKs under each template! I use Divine Guidance and fucking fail the test!!! I kill 1 GK and get ASSaulted like a skinny guy in prison...


lol actually thats a very well though out idea just I dont think it will work too well against the GK, anyway I never use the immolator, If Im gonna transport a unit I am not taking only six to the unit especially when I have something like retruibutors, I need to be able to allocate some woulns to keep those MASTER CRAFTED heavy flamers on the board, remeber they re-roll misses when they is master crafted. Sorry its an old joke ma and a few old friends had.


----------



## Tzeen Qhayshek

Is this what the SoB is going to be now? A forgotten army that just gets WD updates now and again? Is an actually codex ever going to be on the table?


----------



## WallWeasels

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Is this what the SoB is going to be now? A forgotten army that just gets WD updates now and again? Is an actually codex ever going to be on the table?


Whats new? C:WH did little to "update" Sisters except some faith changes and upgrade to BS4. The rest of C:WH was the addition of non-sister units. We've been pretty abandoned by GW since second edition because they've never had enough faith to place a plastic model set out.


----------



## SilverTabby

WallWeasels said:


> Whats new? C:WH did little to "update" Sisters except some faith changes and upgrade to BS4. The rest of C:WH was the addition of non-sister units. We've been pretty abandoned by GW since second edition because they've never had enough faith to place a plastic model set out.


OK, speaking from firsthand experience now. GW are not lying when they - Jez in particular - say there are problems making Sisters in plastic. 

Simply from a posing perspective : If you want multipart, posable figures, what direction do you have the cloth on the arms hang in? What about the skirts? How do you arrange it so you can put more than one set option with any other? 

Unless you want plastics that are effectively just copies of the metals and about as convertible, they need to fix this. And given how stupidly tight the sculptors deadlines are, they won't even get started unless they know a workable solution.


----------



## WallWeasels

And I will figure that out the moment you start paying me a salary. But this is moot because we already have heard plastics sprues have been seen in-company. Complaining that the work is hard is nice and all, but not going to mean "nope nothing new ever." It is a delay tactic and that is all it is. Any plastics wouldn't be nearly as restricted as the metal and you know it. Even if you had to fill in some gaps or move work it is better than permanently fixed arms :| I'd rather an army of slightly changable "gun facing forward, arms barely movable, plastics" than a "3 poses on 3 different models one piece metal."

Really to say they would be EXACTLY the same as the metals is just flat out cock-n-balls crazy. This wouldn't be the case IF the metal models had "metal" robes that you placed on in fixed positions on the model. But no, sisters are one piece model with a backpack stuck on in one position and thus any attempt to plastic the model would result in multi-part models that you still glue together. Which is infinitely easier than hacking off the fixed-on-bolterarm to attempt to greenstuff-cover all the hack marks up after placing marine hands on the weapon >_>;


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> /me raises hand...
> 
> I guess I will have to run some Retributors with heavy flamers if I want to be somewhat evil...
> 
> I drive up in my Immolator, jump out with my 5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers! I line them up over those pesky Grey Knights! Ahh, 4 GKs under each template! I use Divine Guidance and fucking fail the test!!! I kill 1 GK and get ASSaulted like a skinny guy in prison...


If it makes you feel better, a unit of 5 or 6 would probably fail divine guidance under the old rules too.

Am I alone in wishing next month's battle report was with the Rainbow Warriors?


----------



## Vicktimization

I'm glad that I am not the only one feeling like this is a really watered-down version of the Sisters. I am really tempted to try to continue running with my old codex until a new one is made.

I will say this, though. If the new ACTUAL codex ends up being anything like this current one (or at least the way it is tending so far) in terms of blandness, I'm going to sell off my 4000 points of sisters and buy like Imperial Guard or Tau or Blood Angels or something. :suicide:

I'm trying to remain optimistic but it is difficult. I think that they will add a ton of stuff to the codex when we actually get a real codex. Really, they have to. They simply can't release a garbage codex with almost no models without the entire 40k community looking down on them. It would hurt them and the players. They want to make money by making spiffy new models and a strong codex so fad-players pick up the army. It's how it works. So, I am optimisitic for the future of Sisters in the long run.

We'll see about the short run though...


----------



## Tzeen Qhayshek

I'd be interested in seeing what armies pull in the most money (40k wise) for GW, and if that factors into what they are doing right now.


----------



## hells

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I'd be interested in seeing what armies pull in the most money (40k wise) for GW, and if that factors into what they are doing right now.


not us, i know out of my 3k points of sisters only 1k came from gw and the rest from ebay, too expensive to buy directly from gw since when we have the most expensive basic troop box and thats before you replace 2 of the models for another 2 which cost an ass load, and im referring back to the days when you could buy a box of 10 sisters :/





Vicktimization said:


> I will say this, though. If the new ACTUAL codex ends up being anything like this current one (or at least the way it is tending so far) in terms of blandness, I'm going to sell off my 4000 points of sisters and buy like Imperial Guard or Tau or Blood Angels or something. :suicide:


i know how you feel, a decent list for battle sisters for me used to be canness, celestians, sisters and a few tanks, was really bland and same old. ive found they get more fun when you include penitent engines and repentia, awesome models and when you reach combat your like a lil kid giggling cause you know it will be fun X3 but mostly cause they are awesome models.

although i wont sell my battle sisters i may pick up another army once i finish painting all my current models up since i have no reason to gather any more battle sisters for what looks to be another year or so : /


----------



## AlexHolker

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I'd be interested in seeing what armies pull in the most money (40k wise) for GW, and if that factors into what they are doing right now.


Space Marines are first (unsurprisingly when they get almost as many plastic kits as every other army put together) and I've heard that both Tyranids and Chaos took a real beating when their respective codices screwed everything up. Apart from that, I couldn't tell you.


----------



## Kettu

I do have to ask, People keep saying the Sisters are getting a full codex early 2012.
But from what I remember of the rumours *THIS* WD update is the alleged update that was coming and now Sisters have vanished off the rumour chart for the time being.

Did I miss something or is this all just lots of wishful thinking?


----------



## Wingman

I heard that this was going to be a "test" codex to see how the rules went and that a real codex would release later after they are satisfied. 

Maybe it's just to see if test codexes in WD would be popular or not.


----------



## TheSpore

Kettu said:


> I do have to ask, People keep saying the Sisters are getting a full codex early 2012.
> But from what I remember of the rumours *THIS* WD update is the alleged update that was coming and now Sisters have vanished off the rumour chart for the time being.
> 
> Did I miss something or is this all just lots of wishful thinking?


From all the rumours Ive seen in the past and all that I gone over looking at the way GW has been doing things I have a single assesment towards this issue.

First I asess that this to see if there is still a good enough demand for the sisters...

Too Many rumours point to there being issues with working out the kinks iin converted them over to plastic, which makes an asessment of this WD dex being a way to sate the fans temporarily until they will be able to comply with demand, Finally this may also be a way to test the grounds to see what direction to take the army since they havn't really been off on their own in quite some time, also bear in mind they are more than likely seeing what the players' opinions will be on the new rules so they figure out what else will need to be done with them as well.


----------



## Suijin

A unit I'm interested in seeing the points cost on is the Missionary with Plasma gun in the elites slot. If that is a priest with upgraded wargear, priests are independant characters, and how many we can take overall in that slot, then we may be able to get 9-15 plasma guns in the army to place wherever we want them. He is in the elites slot on the web page, and in the first half of the codex in the picture on page 91 (on the stairs).

2 good places I see are in: regular sisters troops that with sucessfull faith get a reroll of 1s, and in any unit that gets FNP (like Uriah Jacobus or probably command squad with hospitaller).

I think if anything makes this codex reasonable it is going to be things like that that make it viable. Overall, having a bunch of priests with plasma guns making the army competitive wouldn't be my first choice if I designed the army though. I wouldn't think the points cost to be insane either with a Grey Knights henchman with plasma gun being fairly low and the old warrior henchman veteran guardsman with plasma gun and better stats being an ok price.

On another note, I will be quite sad if they removed inferno pistols from seraphim though. Also be interesting to see if hand flamers are still considered pistols with repect to them getting to fire both and the faith to reroll wounds. I'm beginning to think they meant to write you can fire 2 bolt pistols in the shooting phase, removing option to fire the flamers or anything else, though it is badly worded if meant that way.

The 2 things about the old faith I'll miss most is the +2 I for assaults and the 3++ save of course, both made us actually good in CC. I have killed a hive tyrant losing only 1 of 5 seraphim, and an HQ + 5 terminators losing most of a Canoness and battle sisters troop in CC using these basics. It really helps to hit first if you are going to have issues wounding due to low strength.


----------



## gen.ahab

Kettu said:


> I do have to ask, People keep saying the Sisters are getting a full codex early 2012.
> But from what I remember of the rumours *THIS* WD update is the alleged update that was coming and now Sisters have vanished off the rumour chart for the time being.
> 
> Did I miss something or is this all just lots of wishful thinking?


This was a stopgap measure which was put in place to tide fans over till the next codex comes out. I don't know if it will be in 2012, but it should be coming relatively soon, as far as codices go.


----------



## TheSpore

Ahab I gotta say though its off topic that avatar is flippin awesome


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Suijin said:


> Stuff


Welcome to the forums. I too am quite curious about the Ecclesiarchy units, will they be 0-5 like in the old dex that you can hand out to different squads or will they simply be HQ or Elites? Perhaps 1-3 taking up a single Elite slot that you can then hand out to different squads? or perhaps like Haemonculi being the same but in HQ? or like the old that they dont count as an HQ or take up an HQ slot?

The new fluff says: "Ecclesiarchy priests often accompany the Orders Militant into battle and it has even been known for them to lead Wars of Faith."

To me this sounds exactly like the Haemonculi entry. That you can take 1-3 Preachers for 1 HQ slot and upgrade one of them to a Confessor.

Then again they are pretty meh states wise and their special rule isn't exactly good for a Sisters army. Id rather put a Canoness in a unit and give them +1I and Preferred Enemy than just getting to reroll misses. Then again if you can take a ton of these guys they might make the Sisters somewhat respectable in close co.....AHAHAHAHAHAHA... I can't say that with a straight face!!...

Just like everything else their wargear will make or break the usefulness of them.


----------



## Necrosis

So lets see the different priest theories:
Like Blood Angels, where the confessor would be an HQ while priest are elites (I think it's unlikely but would not rule it out)
Like Guard, where they are an HQ but don't take up any force organization expect the Confessor.
Like Dark Eldar where you can take 3 per slot and one of them can be a confessor.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> Welcome to the forums. I too am quite curious about the Ecclesiarchy units, will they be 0-5 like in the old dex that you can hand out to different squads or will they simply be HQ or Elites? Perhaps 1-3 taking up a single Elite slot that you can then hand out to different squads? or perhaps like Haemonculi being the same but in HQ? or like the old that they dont count as an HQ or take up an HQ slot?
> 
> The new fluff says: "Ecclesiarchy priests often accompany the Orders Militant into battle and it has even been known for them to lead Wars of Faith."
> 
> To me this sounds exactly like the Haemonculi entry. That you can take 1-3 Preachers for 1 HQ slot and upgrade one of them to a Confessor.
> 
> Then again they are pretty meh states wise and their special rule isn't exactly good for a Sisters army. Id rather put a Canoness in a unit and give them +1I and Preferred Enemy than just getting to reroll misses. Then again if you can take a ton of these guys they might make the Sisters somewhat respectable in close co.....AHAHAHAHAHAHA... I can't say that with a straight face!!...
> 
> Just like everything else their wargear will make or break the usefulness of them.


Well Combat is already not a problem, what with our power armor and 6++ invun-:laugh:


----------



## Suijin

Oh I was never expecting the preachers to make assaulting that much better, I was wondering about the plasma guns. Potentially 15 plasma guns for about 210-300 points embedded with FNP could be a decent unit. They should be able to shred most things, although that medicore BS 3 (likely) would kill it some.

I would almost rather not even have an invulnerable save of 6++, that way we would not be paying points for it or have people say we have good units or some kind of benefit from it. Even a 5++ is pretty marginal on a make this roll or die thing, 6++ is rarely going to make much difference in an end result of being shot and even less in a final assault result (especially in a unit with subpar CC skills).


----------



## Inq_Eljer

*GW Customer Service response*

Hi all, 

Here is a copy/paste of an email from GW Customer Service I received in response to my initial email expressing concerns and support for the Sisters of Battle:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

_"Thanks for writing in to us and expressing your support and concerns for the Sisters of Battle. As a Sisters player myself (I collect The Order of the Bloody Rose) I understand how passionate you can get about your favorite army._

_The article in the magazine is part one of the Sisters article. The next issue of White Dwarf will have all the details for the army list itself with all the points costs and weapons options etc. While these articles can in no way compare to a full blown codex, I feel that they will provide an adequate stop gap so that Sisters players such as us can play their army in the 5th edition of Warhammer 40,000 until a new codex can be written (along with new plastic miniatures being made ). As you mentioned, the Witch Hunters codex was originally published in early 2004 for the 3rd edition of the game and doesn’t play or handle as well two editions on. We did exactly the same thing with the Blood Angels army which got an army list published in White Dwarf across two issues back in 2006. This allowed existing players to play with their army in the game until the new codex was published in February 2010._

_I hope this gives you a little insight into why the new codex article has been written, and what the future may hold for the Sisters. I’m not too sure when a full codex will be written for them, but keep the faith that they haven’t been forgotten about."_

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My 'reading between the lines' and conspiracy theories lead me to suspect that our beloved Sisters will need to get used to this WD whack-job codex for 2 to 4 years while they update the usual suspects following a 6th edition release. I'd get used to being underpowered now.

Sincerely,
_Inquisitor Eljer_
=][=


----------



## Suijin

Guess we will just have to wait 2 weeks to see. Overall, I don't think anything in it will surprise me too much, they aren't going to do anything radical.

Seems like the cheap retributers with multi-melta, TL multi-melta immolators, and plasma gun priests might be our best bets (maybe seraphim too, have to see).


----------



## Tahiri

andrewm9 said:


> Grey Knight rhinos are 40 points thanks to Fortitude which can inflict a penetrating hit to them if they roll badly so why not pay for a 6+ invuln save too. I'm not saying it will be good but thats what I expect.


 
Fortitude is only about 1000x better then a 6+ invuln save...


----------



## WallWeasels

A few things I noticed that are somewhat promising at least:

From the battle sister with Simulacrum description:
"Squads of Battle Sisters will often carry a Simulacrum Imperialis into battle - a holy icon or piece of scripture that shows their dedication to the Emperor. When carried aloft, this sacred symbol will lend strength to the Battle Sisters nearby and encourage them to perform even greater Acts of Faith."
Usage of GREATER faith implies it gets better in effect (of course). Now of course this is the fluff description and not the in game effect, but it is definitely interesting. Most likely the icons will give +1 faith points or +1 to roll or rerolling faith...but that still isn't "greater" feats persay

from the "sister with blessed banner:
"When the Canoness of the Order Militant marches to war, she will often be accompanied by a Command Squad - a retinue of veteran Battle Sisters who have fought for many years at her side. Among these warriors, one Celestian will be picked out to carry the Blessed Banner, a revered relic of aeons past that exudes such influence over nearby warriors that they will not falter in the face of the enemy and will fight on even after horrendous losses."

Hopefully this means something other than "fearless" and more like "reroll leadership test" or "Stubborn" :V If its fearless then...ugh

Also priest with plasmagun is still buyable, which means he wll have that option. Given their crappy profiles I wonder how viable spamming BS3 plasma gun preachers will be :laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Since it's GW and they dont want to not disappoint it probably wont be something too good.

I would have expected the Simulacrum to perhaps give +1 to the roll but if this was the case then the AoF rules would probably have said something like "If the cumulative bonuses makes it so you need a roll of 1 or less the AoF is auto successful".

+1 Faithpoint could be really good but it's GW we are talking about so I doubt it.

Most likely is a re-roll for the faith test but even this sounds too good for something GW would do. Then again Seraphim gets to re-roll and they have always counted as having a Simulacrum. They also get to re-roll their failed 6++ which would be the worst of the above options. So perhaps it will allow you to re-roll any failed 6++ saves.
Then again a 6++ re-rollable is similar to a 4.8++ save if my math is not too far off.

Blessed banner gave fearless in the old codex so it wouldn't surprise me if it did the same now.
Then again Kyrinov counts as having both laud hailer and simulacrum AND his Icon of Chiros gives all friendly units within 6" fearless so the blessed banner can't give fearless as well.

My personal guess would be that the Librarium has misplaced all the Books of St. Lucius so now the sisters have to look upon the blessed banners for their stubborn bubble or it's the same as the old one with the 12" fearless.
I hope it's a 12" stubborn bubble but that would be a positive thing and GW can't have that...


----------



## Voldrak

Fielding priests with plasma guns, if the price is right and they can still be attached to squads, might be an option if:

-you can combat squad sister of battle units
or
-the minimum squad size is 5.

Could see myself choosing 4 priests with plasma guns and adding them to 5-6 sisters in a Rhino.

With their act of faith allowing them to reroll 1s, it would make for a decent anti TEQ unit.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I doubt this. If the Sisters could combat squad it would have been in their army specific rules in this months WD. At most 1 priest per unit but most likely 3-5 per army.


----------



## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> I doubt this. If the Sisters could combat squad it would have been in their army specific rules in this months WD. At most 1 priest per unit but most likely 3-5 per army.


I bet the minimum squad size will be 5. and Preachers will 1- 3 per elite slot or something like that or take no slots at all. They don't add a lot so its not overkill or anything.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> -snip-.


I agree with you that +1 to the roll seems doubtful as GW usually goes by the motto of "one always fails" and a 2+ to roll is already possible. 

-+1 faith points would be pretty good but yeahhh its GW <_<

-If they got angelic visage...well that would be pretty good. Rerolling is nice and a slightly better 5++ is also decent. 

-Kyrinov doesn't have a blessed banner (which is seperate from a simulacrum). So he doesn't actually prevent an aura for the blessed banner...not sure I want 12" fearless though :| Its better than being routed but then you just die from wounds anyway.

Also the min squad size will still be 10. Especially if we cost "less" than now (which we know we do)


----------



## rasolyo

Frankly I'd be happy enough if a Troop squad costs the same, the difference only being the cost of a veteran superior.

And free meltas.


----------



## TheSpore

well I finally found my scheme to repaint my siters in.

(sorry had to break from topic some) Is it bad that my wife gets a chuckle everytimes I say I am paint my sisters or when I go to strip the paint on them I say well i gotta strip my sisters


----------



## Mokuren

TheSpore said:


> (sorry had to break from topic some) Is it bad that my wife gets a chuckle everytimes I say I am paint my sisters or when I go to strip the paint on them I say well i gotta strip my sisters


I'd get weird looks if I were to say that out of context, so I think your wife's reaction is already quite an improvement.

The part that worries me the most is not the fact that this WD Codex looks like it was made in a rush by someone who doesn't care, but that I probably won't be seeing new sister models in a long while.

I had planned to humbly start a Sisters army in quite a while, but until not much ago I was still a rather destitute student/young worker with not even barely as much disposable income as I was going to need. Now that I actually can, and I think I found a colour scheme that satisfies me, it seems like I'll have to start collecting metal only miniatures that are not just ridiculously expensive, even for Warhammer standards, but that are also going to be a pain to find.

And with no indication whatsoever as to when the new miniatures will come out, let us just say my enthusiasm is already telling me to switch to other games.

This thursday I'll be going to a store in a nearby town with some friends; I'll see what comes out of that.


----------



## TheSpore

Mokuren said:


> I'd get weird looks if I were to say that out of context, so I think your wife's reaction is already quite an improvement.
> 
> The part that worries me the most is not the fact that this WD Codex looks like it was made in a rush by someone who doesn't care, but that I probably won't be seeing new sister models in a long while.
> 
> I had planned to humbly start a Sisters army in quite a while, but until not much ago I was still a rather destitute student/young worker with not even barely as much disposable income as I was going to need. Now that I actually can, and I think I found a colour scheme that satisfies me, it seems like I'll have to start collecting metal only miniatures that are not just ridiculously expensive, even for Warhammer standards, but that are also going to be a pain to find.
> 
> And with no indication whatsoever as to when the new miniatures will come out, let us just say my enthusiasm is already telling me to switch to other games.
> 
> This thursday I'll be going to a store in a nearby town with some friends; I'll see what comes out of that.


The issue is not that there is no new models its the fact that GW is making you basically buy the army almost one mini ata time which is insanely expensive, if this to see if the sisters will sell more then they are doing it wrong and in the dumbest way ever. Also why did they decide to put the SM rhino on the sisters section when the Immolator is built to make both vehicles. Anyway Im just one of those fortunate to have already built an army of them before GW made this years dick move.


----------



## Suijin

Well the command squad looks to be 5 sisters, so you can join the priests there and likely get FNP, relentless, and move through cover. Now you can toss them in a rhino, or buy an immolator to just run around as a mobile weapons platform.

I also got an army about 1.5-2 years ago, looked around for deals and such. I do notice they are more expensive now on ebay.


----------



## SilverTabby

WallWeasels said:


> And I will figure that out the moment you start paying me a salary. But this is moot because we already have heard plastics sprues have been seen in-company.


And I can confidently say that 999 out of 1000 quotes of "I saw these plastics being made" are balony. The only place you can see works in progress like that is inside the Studio itself. The security on getting in there is much tighter than people seem to think. Anyone who says "my mate works in there and showed me around" is either lying or about to get his 'mate' sacked. 

There are 80-odd staff who work in the Studio. The chances of a random poster on a forum knowing anyone in there are slim. If the poster lives outside Nottingham, it becomes virtually non-existent. Overseas... not a chance. 
Even if you know someone inside, 90% of staff there are not allowed to let any non-studio staff in. Not even those they know and trust not to talk online. There have been recent leak-related dismissals. 

So, bearing this in mind and that the described sprue layouts are dubious at best - I'd say no, we don't know that plastics exist yet.


----------



## Suijin

SilverTabby said:


> And I can confidently say that 999 out of 1000 quotes of "I saw these plastics being made" are balony. The only place you can see works in progress like that is inside the Studio itself. The security on getting in there is much tighter than people seem to think. Anyone who says "my mate works in there and showed me around" is either lying or about to get his 'mate' sacked.
> 
> There are 80-odd staff who work in the Studio. The chances of a random poster on a forum knowing anyone in there are slim. If the poster lives outside Nottingham, it becomes virtually non-existent. Overseas... not a chance.
> Even if you know someone inside, 90% of staff there are not allowed to let any non-studio staff in. Not even those they know and trust not to talk online. There have been recent leak-related dismissals.
> 
> So, bearing this in mind and that the described sprue layouts are dubious at best - I'd say no, we don't know that plastics exist yet.


Well I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have done some plastic SoB sprues. I believe they were sighted before all the extra secrecy, and maybe the cause of some of it, so that's another reason to believe they exist in some form.

Now obviously they aren't selling them to us all, so what does that mean? They like to release the plastic with the codex, and with the WD codex we have they aren't ready for that release, so that is one reason. They also probably aren't done with all the different plastic units, otherwise they would likely get the codex done and release it all to make money.

None of this actually means they will ever release any of it, that is up to them. It would be hard to believe they would abandon the army, but it has happened before with squats. It is likely they will finish up on the work they need to do with SoB, when they aren't finishing the other armies, and then set and release. At least we are getting something, and can hope they listen to anything we say about the new rules as they publish them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> (sorry had to break from topic some) Is it bad that my wife gets a chuckle everytimes I say I am paint my sisters or when I go to strip the paint on them I say well i gotta strip my sisters


Personally I prefer to say I want to "play" with my Sisters this weekend or similar.



Suijin said:


> Well the command squad looks to be 5 sisters, so you can join the priests there and likely get FNP, relentless, and move through cover. Now you can toss them in a rhino, or buy an immolator to just run around as a mobile weapons platform.
> 
> I also got an army about 1.5-2 years ago, looked around for deals and such. I do notice they are more expensive now on ebay.


What would be the point is all I can ask?
It will all depend on how many special or heavy weapons they can get. If they are anything like the old Celestians then 1 Heavy Bolter will be max. I guess 1 Multi Melta would be good but will it be worth taking this squad for 1 special or heavy weapon?
Unless you can take 2-3 special weapons or 2 per 5 Celestians I dont really see a point with this squad.

Relentless hints that they should be a mobile firing platform but unless they can take allot of heavy weapons it just wont be worth it.

Lets hope for 4 special weapons if you have 10 Celestians! Then again the only Heavy weapons the Sisters have are Multi-melta and Heavy bolters.


----------



## WallWeasels

Suijin said:


> Well I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have done some plastic SoB sprues. I believe they were sighted before all the extra secrecy, and maybe the cause of some of it, so that's another reason to believe they exist in some form.
> 
> Now obviously they aren't selling them to us all, so what does that mean? They like to release the plastic with the codex, and with the WD codex we have they aren't ready for that release, so that is one reason. They also probably aren't done with all the different plastic units, otherwise they would likely get the codex done and release it all to make money.
> 
> None of this actually means they will ever release any of it, that is up to them. It would be hard to believe they would abandon the army, but it has happened before with squats. It is likely they will finish up on the work they need to do with SoB, when they aren't finishing the other armies, and then set and release. At least we are getting something, and can hope they listen to anything we say about the new rules as they publish them.


They wouldn't release models with a WD codex because they know the reasons why they are releasing it. This really is NOT a "5th edition update" like they are spouting in replies to emails. Again if that was GWs priority this would of happened -ages- ago. Yet randomly 3 years later and after several "gaps" in 40ks releases we get a strung together WD? You know, several months after necrons are told to be delayed again? 

People also need to stop acting like Squats was tanked because of poor sales. It was tanked for legal reasons for the most part. GW will not just drop a codex and models it has now-a-days. Fact is codexs get plastics and sisters will get plastics when they get a codex. Before the necron delay was rumored sisters had more than enough people stating late 2011 and early 2012 as a release window. Yet, suddenly, after necron rumors started of delays...sisters were pushed forward to mid-late 2011 and shortly after that to just be demoted to a WD codex without any more rumors of models. 
To me that marks a sudden 360 from what we had heard and rumors tend to be "wrong, but close enough" rather than "codex with models" to "even earlier, white dwarf hackjob with no model support or even re-releases."


----------



## Suijin

MadCowCrazy said:


> Personally I prefer to say I want to "play" with my Sisters this weekend or similar.
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the point is all I can ask?
> It will all depend on how many special or heavy weapons they can get. If they are anything like the old Celestians then 1 Heavy Bolter will be max. I guess 1 Multi Melta would be good but will it be worth taking this squad for 1 special or heavy weapon?
> Unless you can take 2-3 special weapons or 2 per 5 Celestians I dont really see a point with this squad.
> 
> Relentless hints that they should be a mobile firing platform but unless they can take allot of heavy weapons it just wont be worth it.
> 
> Lets hope for 4 special weapons if you have 10 Celestians! Then again the only Heavy weapons the Sisters have are Multi-melta and Heavy bolters.


Not celestines, but the command squad (I guess they borrowed from SM who have a similiar thing), they get to take things like all plasma guns, or melta guns and an apothecary (FNP), I don't have the codex on me right now but that's what I remember. In SM at least for each HQ you take you can also take a command squad, doesn't really occupy a FoC slot as it is part of the HQ you already took, but they don't have to be combined on the table.


----------



## Suijin

WallWeasels said:


> They wouldn't release models with a WD codex because they know the reasons why they are releasing it. This really is NOT a "5th edition update" like they are spouting in replies to emails. Again if that was GWs priority this would of happened -ages- ago. Yet randomly 3 years later and after several "gaps" in 40ks releases we get a strung together WD? You know, several months after necrons are told to be delayed again?
> 
> People also need to stop acting like Squats was tanked because of poor sales. It was tanked for legal reasons for the most part. GW will not just drop a codex and models it has now-a-days. Fact is codexs get plastics and sisters will get plastics when they get a codex. Before the necron delay was rumored sisters had more than enough people stating late 2011 and early 2012 as a release window. Yet, suddenly, after necron rumors started of delays...sisters were pushed forward to mid-late 2011 and shortly after that to just be demoted to a WD codex without any more rumors of models.
> To me that marks a sudden 360 from what we had heard and rumors tend to be "wrong, but close enough" rather than "codex with models" to "even earlier, white dwarf hackjob with no model support or even re-releases."


I just took it to mean they had issues and/or timing with other things that were going better, and are going with releasing other stuff first. I did say they were likely to release all the stuff, but that they wanted everything done before doing so.

I do think they are "testing" this codex however, but that is only my opinion. Also, think they wanted to get rid of the last ally codex hanging around.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Suijin said:


> Not celestines, but the command squad (I guess they borrowed from SM who have a similiar thing), they get to take things like all plasma guns, or melta guns and an apothecary (FNP), I don't have the codex on me right now but that's what I remember. In SM at least for each HQ you take you can also take a command squad, doesn't really occupy a FoC slot as it is part of the HQ you already took, but they don't have to be combined on the table.


Well, the Battle Sisters in the Command squad are Celestians.
Celestian, Dialogus and Hospitaller.

The Sisters will only have 3 weapon types; melta, flame and bolter.
So if they are like the SM ones then perhaps they can all take multi-melta or heavy bolters as those are the only 2 weapons the sisters can wield that are Heavy.

Then again it wouldn't be too surprising if the only reason GW made their AoF Relentless is so that they could move and fire their bolters once at 24" range...


----------



## WallWeasels

How can you "test" anything without asking for opinions on it? what measurement system are they using to determine its "success?" Model sales? WEll thats an auto-failure.
Also the "allies" were effectively removed when GW stopped selling the codex in stores and put up the PDF online that removed allies. :| 
Regardless, something cannot be tested without actually testing something. Nor will the WD sales show you accurately how many people "want" the sisters.

Well yes they are celestians...but just call them Celestian Command Squad or just "command squad" saying celestians is misleading to what unit you might be referring too. Regardless, yep...equipment wise you cant be to surprise about what weapons they'll have >_>


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sorry, I figured people would understand I was referring to the command squad as that was what we were talking about...


----------



## WallWeasels

oh I mean just in general >_>

[edit]on another note: did you know that black library is doing TWO new sister works? Ones the book we already know about and one is about celestian Miriya is back  








http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/red-and-black.html
Given that shes now shown up in two books, makes me wonder if in a "real" codex she'd appear as a character 

[edit2]Also James Swallow sure loves sisters >_> 2 books and an audio-book. I'd get this man to write a sisters codex (or atleast the fluff).


----------



## mahavira

WallWeasels said:


> They wouldn't release models with a WD codex because they know the reasons why they are releasing it. This really is NOT a "5th edition update" like they are spouting in replies to emails. Again if that was GWs priority this would of happened -ages- ago. Yet randomly 3 years later and after several "gaps" in 40ks releases we get a strung together WD? You know, several months after necrons are told to be delayed again?
> 
> People also need to stop acting like Squats was tanked because of poor sales. It was tanked for legal reasons for the most part. GW will not just drop a codex and models it has now-a-days. Fact is codexs get plastics and sisters will get plastics when they get a codex. Before the necron delay was rumored sisters had more than enough people stating late 2011 and early 2012 as a release window. Yet, suddenly, after necron rumors started of delays...sisters were pushed forward to mid-late 2011 and shortly after that to just be demoted to a WD codex without any more rumors of models.
> To me that marks a sudden 360 from what we had heard and rumors tend to be "wrong, but close enough" rather than "codex with models" to "even earlier, white dwarf hackjob with no model support or even re-releases."


I think you have the relationship between codices and plastics backwards: Sisters will get a codex when plastics are done or at least going to be done in the forseeable future. Jess Goodwin said on an interview on the GW website earlier this year that there was a major problem with sisters in plastic they hadn't solved (and to be honest I'm not sure it's soluble so long as sisters retain the loose sleeves). Unless there's been a huge breakthrough (or they've given up and redesigned the sisters look to have tight sleeves so they don't look wierd when the arm is posed in different positions), the rumors of a plastic sprue are probably false (the only possible exception would be a plastic cannoness or priest designed like the plastic heroes that came out with Storm of Magic) or rather than a sprue someone saw a prototype sculpt or something.

Finecast of existing models is conceivable (and would make penitent engines much easier to build, and seraphim probably less tippy) and costmetic changes like cutting off the seraphim hands and having a bunch of different weapon hands is conceivable but I doubt it.


----------



## oiad

Indeed, I too remember those rumours awhile back where GW stated they were having trouble finalising the moulds for the Sisters' models. I expect the reason why we now have a WD codex and not a full release is because of this. As it stands recent rumours say the new models are now in (or near) completion. However after completion it will still take a 1 year upwards for GW to haul them out into a release. I wouldn't expect an immediate release after 6th. More likely it will be a few releases or so in, or even halfway through - similar to the Blood Angels.

----------


----------



## MadCowCrazy

WallWeasels said:


> on another note: did you know that black library is doing TWO new sister works? Ones the book we already know about and one is about celestian Miriya is back


----------



## WallWeasels

Interesting enough  Didnt know you had a video of that. I'd look forward to any other videos if you are going to make one...although I can' remember when the next GD is 

Also you will now be mentally known by me as "MadCowTracy"  Silly James Swallow.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I dont make many videos, mostly when I find something interesting like InstantMold and things like that. I will be going to Games Day UK again this year and it's on September 24th.

I only go to GD for Sisters of Battle rumours so I will try to get my dirty claws on Cruddace and Ward if they are anywhere to be found there.

Could everyone keep an eye out for next months WD, it should be arriving next week to different stores. If someone could get their hands on it please send me a pm.


----------



## hells

MadCowCrazy said:


> Could everyone keep an eye out for next months WD, it should be arriving next week to different stores. If someone could get their hands on it please send me a pm.


and me, pick me :3 

on a side note, been playing old points new rules, isnt too bad so far still not sure how it goes, 6++ is pretty cool, saved a engine and some sisters with it, just remembering is the main problem now. engines if they get cheaer are going to be horribly nasty X3 repentia chewed up a lot of stuff  overall it seems to be ok X3

prob more when i get back from work


----------



## Dagmire

I think Jacabus ~(spelling) is going to be a must for all sister: stubbon, re-rolls ones AND faith points. Who wouldnt want this guy?


----------



## Katie Drake

Dagmire said:


> I think Jacabus ~(spelling) is going to be a must for all sister: stubbon, re-rolls ones AND faith points. Who wouldnt want this guy?


Not to mention +1A and FNP.


----------



## krigervarg

*when oh when*

when will we see a real workable sisters codex and new models in plastic i really what to start a stisters force but worried about there treatment by GW


----------



## hells

ok back, ill give a bit of a recount on the matches i had

game 1 vs necrons 1650

was over in 2 turns really, he turbo bossted 9 wraths and a lord in front of my entire army which rolled a 6 for faith, so my 3 penitent engines, 2 exorcists, 2 battle sister squads and seraphim with living saint killed all but a 3 wraiths an a lord, seraphims rerolls on wounds is nasty when they take multiple flames and the living siants h flamer. battle sisters rerolls of 1 were ok, didnt really add too much to the damage.

assualt phase the engines and repentia chargerd with the priest, my god the repentia put out a lot of attacks, about 20 after the few died and faith act, cut down the lord and the wraiths, basiclly other guy gg'ed there, he had 2 warrior squads left and id lost 3 repentia, wasnt much he could do.



game 2 vs dark eldar 1500

well it was definatlly interesting. first turn he lanced one of my exorcists and 4 missiles from his new flying thing took about 7 casualties, my turn got one of is barge things.

his second turn lead to both my squads getting hosed down, 1 was left with 3 sisters but failed thier leadershi and started fleeing. my turn i generated 1 faith point which went to regrouping my battle sisters, about where i found the main weakness in the faith system, in a turn i was about to get busy i got 1 faith which went to a squad just to regroup them. repentia charged a barge thingy, well we resolved a third of the attacks that hit and there wasnt much left of it, if they get a harge on a vehicle all i can say is its shredded like paper. engines charged another barge but it moved flatout so all they did was shake it up and rip off a gun. saint and seraphim charged a mandrake squad killing one, was rather lousy effort ><

turn 3 lead to flying disks charging the engines killing one, engines got 2 disks and the barge in retaliation while the repentia were shot up a bit and charged by a talos which slaughtered them, living saint killed another mandrake :/ and the engines were slaughtered while my last exorsist had its turrent blown off, my turn my saint and seraphim which was all that was left bassiclly finally kill the last mandrakes and advaned on the middled

turn 4 the seraphim died horribly but the saint flamed one squad and charged finihing off the surviours, turn 5 she was charge, and taken down by the talos after taking 2 wounds off it, in my turn she got up charged and flmed the disk guys, they fled from her wrath and got cut down.

after this game how strong she can be became apparent, she can soak up a fair amount of firepower, flame and charge a squad normally killing it, die, get back up and do it again, rather nasty.




after the games i can say new rules dont seem to bad really, the faith is definatlly weaker but if the points drop they should be able to cope ok, the living saint, pure filth shes too strong for her just get back up rule, unless shes uber expensive and then i wont take her X3 repentia are plain nasty with a priest on the charge and im waiting on point costs before i see how death cult assasians, crusaders and jacobus coupled near repentia will fare other then lol rofl stomp

lastly on loss of stubborn from book, i think it may fare better for us maybe, if we get charged and the squad flees we can still live regroup next turn and shoot again, if we survive go fearless and prob stay the next tirn then break in enemies phase, at least we wont break in our phase so they can recharge, off course we also now cant hold up a demon prine for a whole game with 3++ and stubborn, so its sorta a win lose i guess

sorry on long post, hope it helps some people out a lil /shrug


----------



## krigervarg

what do you think about the update i think we need full codex and new models


----------



## Winterous

krigervarg said:


> what do you think about the update i think we need full codex and new models


...No! Really?


----------



## TheSpore

its been long enuff!!! this lil dex is only been pissing others off I wonder at times what the hell is going on at GWand whta the reasoning is to so much of what they do.


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

hells said:


> ok back, ill give a bit of a recount on the matches i had...



Thank you hells; I was planning on doing something similar, but I don't like fielding unpainted Sisters and my Seraphim Squad + Celestine are still a WiP.

I might have them ready for the release of the second part. I'm willing to give the WD-dex a try. After a few games, who knows, maybe I'll agree with the dissaponted crowd, but for now I'll just wait for the whole thing to come out.


----------



## krigervarg

well what suggestions do people have for new additions or rules i miss the book i used to have as it had all the colour scemes in it and i used to do sisters from the order of the bloody rose (i like red)


----------



## SilverTabby

krigervarg said:


> well what suggestions do people have for new additions or rules i miss the book i used to have as it had all the colour scemes in it and i used to do sisters from the order of the bloody rose (i like red)


This thread has 66 pages of people's suggestions for additions and rules, both before and after the first half of the WDdex was released. I would suggest a few hours of reading it, rather than asking for rehashing :wink:


----------



## Suijin

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, the Battle Sisters in the Command squad are Celestians.
> Celestian, Dialogus and Hospitaller.
> 
> The Sisters will only have 3 weapon types; melta, flame and bolter.
> So if they are like the SM ones then perhaps they can all take multi-melta or heavy bolters as those are the only 2 weapons the sisters can wield that are Heavy.
> 
> Then again it wouldn't be too surprising if the only reason GW made their AoF Relentless is so that they could move and fire their bolters once at 24" range...


Wouldn't surprise me either. From the picture on page 91 it looks like the command squad can have a meltagun, heavy flamer, imagnifer, power sword (on squad leader), the hospitaller, and the sister dialogus. The line about safeguarding a sacred relic may reference the shrine bitz next to that squad on the stairs, so it will be interesting to see what that actually is/does.

Out of those squad members shown, only? the imagnifier with the bolter would benefit in any way from having relentless.


----------



## mahavira

3E celestians could have a heavy bolter or multi melta. If they're like IG command squads they might be able to take multiples. Even one multimelta that can move would be pretty nice.


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## WallWeasels

If they are elite (all signs point to elite now), then they might have 2 heavies once at 10 models.

They will most likely be:
1 heavy and 1 special no model restrictions
1 heavy + 1 heavy at 10 models.

What I hope is it battle sisters gain another weapon for 15 or 20 models  Might make 20 sized sisters somewhat useful


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## Suijin

Well one thing that would make faith more efficient is having larger units of 15-20 models.

I've never found in the current edition an issue with taking a 20 model base troop SoB. In fact I kind of prefer them, although I can't say there is really any benefit either (other than for faith point usage efficiency, and having a really hard unit to kill).


----------



## elmir

Suijin said:


> Well one thing that would make faith more efficient is having larger units of 15-20 models.
> 
> I've never found in the current edition an issue with taking a 20 model base troop SoB. In fact I kind of prefer them, although I can't say there is really any benefit either (other than for faith point usage efficiency, and having a really hard unit to kill).


Indeed, the added benefits to faith and the rumoured points cut could make sisters of battle one of the fiercest foot / hybrid armies possible. That in it's own right would be a welcome refreshment in the current mech heavy meta.


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## Suijin

I've noticed SoB have a hard time with AV 14. A friend of mine plays necrons and the monolith is a bitch to deal with, but I've also noticed it with land raiders.

Other armies have lance, S 10 ordance, lascannons, haywire, psychic powers, etc., but we basically just have melta, penitent engines, and maybe eviscerators. Which isn't bad in most cases but is shorter range, somewhat costly points-wise, and various vechicles have rules against getting an extra D6 penetration from melta.

I'll be curious if we get more stuff along the lines of orbital strike relay, special grenades (not for AV 14, but assault combats), any kind of psychic defense, etc. I guess we will see in a bit with the next half.


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## TheSpore

I tried to do some digging and there is nothing out there in the pipline as far news goes on the sisters. It trully appears that they GW has done a hell of a job at locking things tight on rumours and leaked information.

With there being the second and last half of the codex being released this month and GW now sectionsed them off on the web-site, sadly adding nothing new nor not even an atempt top make building a new SoB army even affordable or even a plausible idea has left me to an asessment, 

GW may satrt boxing the models up in to sqaud boxes like they used to be when the dex is finally out.

This is trully a trial and error way of seeing what direction to take th army for a future codex. 

Or GW has trully smoked themselves retarded and released a new set of rules and fluff for an army but giving people very limited ways to build it.

Im leaning towards retarded!!!!


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## Katie Drake

TheSpore said:


> I tried to do some digging and there is nothing out there in the pipline as far news goes on the sisters. It trully appears that they GW has done a hell of a job at locking things tight on rumours and leaked information.
> 
> With there being the second and last half of the codex being released this month and GW now sectionsed them off on the web-site, sadly adding nothing new nor not even an atempt top make building a new SoB army even affordable or even a plausible idea has left me to an asessment,
> 
> GW may satrt boxing the models up in to sqaud boxes like they used to be when the dex is finally out.
> 
> This is trully a trial and error way of seeing what direction to take th army for a future codex.
> 
> Or GW has trully smoked themselves retarded and released a new set of rules and fluff for an army but giving people very limited ways to build it.
> 
> Im leaning towards retarded!!!!


White Dwarf updates are always aimed at existing players, not so much new ones. This is just a tide-over until they can make a proper Codex.


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## mahavira

My real question is "what brought this on?" I can't imagine there's any actual interest in SoB on the part of the GW designers, or they'd have had strategems in Planetstrike, missions in battle missions, and the like. In the last year there's been a lot more rules stuff in WD, wondering if this is less to do with Sisters and more to do with responding to fans who complain that WD is just advertising (certainly if their goal was to get SoB players to calm down, mission very much not accomplished as negative chatter seems to be dominating positive by a wide margin).

Btw, just noticed this: in the description of the Immolator they refer to heavy bolters firing "deadly incendiary rounds". Could this be a heavy bolter equivalent of dragonfire rounds (SM ammo type which ignores cover)? Never seen bolter rounds described as incendiary in any other context. Now wouldn't that be a nice squad upgrade for celestians or retributors...


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## Biellann

mahavira said:


> Btw, just noticed this: in the description of the Immolator they refer to heavy bolters firing "deadly incendiary rounds". Could this be a heavy bolter equivalent of dragonfire rounds (SM ammo type which ignores cover)? Never seen bolter rounds described as incendiary in any other context. Now wouldn't that be a nice squad upgrade for celestians or retributors...


Could simply be referring to Blessed Ammunition, which used to make the Immolator's Heavy Bolters ignore cover.


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## Katie Drake

mahavira said:


> My real question is "what brought this on?"


Same as every other time they've done a WD update - for one reason or another, Witch Hunters is no longer suitable to keep around due to some sort of rules change on the horizon. It's better to fix the Sisters now than it is to try to make a non-compatible book (in this example Codex: Witch Hunters) work with a new set of rules that are too radically different from the ones that the book was originally intended for.

With the Blood Angels, it was done because Codex: Space Marines 5th edition wasn't too far off and since the previous Blood Angel book required a Space Marine Codex to use, GW gave the Angels an update so that they'd be self-sufficient. The only reason the Space Wolves weren't given similar treatment is because 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves was largely self contained with reference to only a (relative) few things from Codex: Space Marines (mostly just vehicle rules and a couple pieces of wargear).

With the Warriors of Chaos WD update, it was done due to Daemons of Chaos becoming their own distinct army book entirely separate from the mortal servants of Chaos - it would have created confusion to have both Hordes of Chaos (which contained both Mortal and Daemon units) as well as Daemons of Chaos (which would have been quite different from the Daemons in Hordes).

For the Sisters, there are two probable explanations. First is that due to the Witch Hunter book sharing a number of units with the new Codex: Grey Knights GW wished to avoid confusion (since all of the Henchmen have entirely different rules between Witch Hunters and Grey Knights) just like they did with Hordes of Chaos a few years ago. Alternatively or perhaps even additionally, 6th edition is coming soon and 3rd edition books may be too outdated to keep around for what some rumors say will be a radical change in how the game functions.


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## TheSpore

Katie Drake said:


> Same as every other time they've done a WD update - for one reason or another, Witch Hunters is no longer suitable to keep around due to some sort of rules change on the horizon. It's better to fix the Sisters now than it is to try to make a non-compatible book (in this example Codex: Witch Hunters) work with a new set of rules that are too radically different from the ones that the book was originally intended for.
> 
> With the Blood Angels, it was done because Codex: Space Marines 5th edition wasn't too far off and since the previous Blood Angel book required a Space Marine Codex to use, GW gave the Angels an update so that they'd be self-sufficient. The only reason the Space Wolves weren't given similar treatment is because 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves was largely self contained with reference to only a (relative) few things from Codex: Space Marines (mostly just vehicle rules and a couple pieces of wargear).
> 
> With the Warriors of Chaos WD update, it was done due to Daemons of Chaos becoming their own distinct army book entirely separate from the mortal servants of Chaos - it would have created confusion to have both Hordes of Chaos (which contained both Mortal and Daemon units) as well as Daemons of Chaos (which would have been quite different from the Daemons in Hordes).
> 
> For the Sisters, there are two probable explanations. First is that due to the Witch Hunter book sharing a number of units with the new Codex: Grey Knights GW wished to avoid confusion (since all of the Henchmen have entirely different rules between Witch Hunters and Grey Knights) just like they did with Hordes of Chaos a few years ago. Alternatively or perhaps even additionally, 6th edition is coming soon and 3rd edition books may be too outdated to keep around for what some rumors say will be a radical change in how the game functions.


Very well thought out, The old WH dex was really showing its age when we started seeing rhinos costing only 35 pt. per tank and that is true some of the units that are shared with the GKs have had totally new rew rulles thrown on them such as the Arcos. The thing is your talking about a dex that is so old now that I swear Jesus even once had a sisters army. Sure the BA dex made some people angry but ultimately you could still run a nilla SM army and still be ok with it, the siters however are just not the same way and there is still a demand out there for this army, I can't name how many people i see online and at the shops daily that complain that they want to build a sisters army but just don't wanna fork out that kinda of money and for the most part I can fully agree.


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## Kettu

In retaliation to Irbian's avatar, I shall now share a picture I just discovered.


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## Irbian

heresy! 

for the lulz!


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## SilverTabby

In response to the comment of 'negative comments outweigh the positive': That's not necessarily true. It's more that those who feel negative towards it are more likely to speak out than thos who are either happy or ambivilent. There are many more Sisters players out there than the handful that frequent this - and other similar - forums.


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## WallWeasels

SilverTabby said:


> In response to the comment of 'negative comments outweigh the positive': That's not necessarily true. It's more that those who feel negative towards it are more likely to speak out than thos who are either happy or ambivilent. There are many more Sisters players out there than the handful that frequent this - and other similar - forums.


Out of all the armies that stand a chance to be players who frequent forums...i'd of said sisters would be one of the higher numbers. From my local store, and the two other local ones, most people feel its rather a joke. Generally speaking most of the players who support or like it tend to be non-sister players who barely know the codex exists already 

Although I agree with you in context that the Internet provides mostly a haven for those who hate something, rather than like it. If you've ever tried to look for apartments anything above 3/5 stars is a 5/5  Since most people who rate apartments...tend to be the ones who had a bad time :x


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## SilverTabby

Well, I guess I'll just have to settle for being one of the very few out here in forum-land that is both a 10+ year Sisters player, and one who is not unhappy with this list so far. 

I'm also happy this evening as I've discovered I have the correct bits to make a second converted Penitent Engine, and found my inspiration for converting Celestine. I think it's safe to say this update has got me wanting to model again. I might even put together some of my rhinos whilst I look for suitable dinosaurs. 

Of course, this is all when I get a break from the toddler and 8-week old, that is...


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## mahavira

While Sisters are my main 40k army, I play so infrequently (and it was my first army, not a wise choice) I guess I count as a non-player, but I also like the changes. I never found the old acts of faith especially useful - most of the time they weren't applicable or couldn't be used when needed because of squad size.


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## [email protected]

*Regarding the update*

Well, my ID says it all, if you'd like to win a game of 40K, play me. That said, I haven't played since 3rd ed., and the new update has me interested enough to dust off the old minis and have a go of it. 

I have read, here and elsewhere, about the overwhelmingly negative response to the update, but I agree negative posters tend to outweigh positives in general, just as in real life; people don't often speak up when things went properly.

I do think, however, that we might be overlooking some fairly advantageous aspects of the new list. One of the main tenets of tactical planning in 40k is to give your opponents dilemmas, not problems. They can solve problems. (I read that in some tactica, but I forget where, so sorry for the lack of credit due). Given that faith is semi-unreliable, don't forget that you can use that to your advantage. Imagine that your opponents can choose to face a 50/50 rending 4xHB Retributor squad or not. He'll never know. The best assassin is one that doesn't know he is, because it's just as much a surprise to him. I think that never quite knowing how effective a unit will be is going to make fighting the Sororitas a little harder than most other armies, where you kind of know what you're getting. 

Some posters have suggested building lists and not planning on faith. I think that needs a twist. I think the key to a quality Sororitas build will be to leverage the unpredictability of faith to make your opponent act in a way that is advantageous to you. Faith has the nearly unique advantage of being portable amongst units at your desire. It's not like Lascannons can be mystically teleported across the field as the player likes. Faith can be used when and where you need it, odds aside. 

The biggest pain will be keeping the enemy from forcing you to use Faith when you would rather not. One might see the fallback-regroup as a great crutch to shore up a fleeing unit, but I see it as a red herring. Avoid getting into that situation, and you save faith for the more important issues. That one might save a game or two here and there, but save that faith for what you intend to use it for, a looming threat. 

Lastly, the toning down of the Immolator seems pretty negative, but I think Immolators just became the new decoy. It's the Sisters in the Rhinos that they truly need to be worried about; when it comes to transports, it's what's in them that should make you worried. Let the Immolator draw all the fire it can, it's certainly to be respected, but make sure those Rhinos use it to draw fire off of them. Once you drop off the squad, the true impact of the army comes to bear. If they happen to ignore the Immolator, that's not that bad either; now, you've got a roving MM that they aren't shooting at. I think now the MM makes more sense, in order to make them want to shoot it more.

Regardless, points costs will make a big difference, but we're all guessing at around 10 pts. What will make the big difference is the special squads. Normally it's fairly wise to run "all" troops, but I'm hoping that special units have more appealing costs to get more on the table.


J
Hands down, the worst 40k player you'll ever defeat.


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## AlexHolker

mahavira said:


> I never found the old acts of faith especially useful - most of the time they weren't applicable or couldn't be used when needed because of squad size.


And now, because you've lost 5/6ths of your choices per squad, it's easier to find a useful Act of Faith?



[email protected] said:


> I do think, however, that we might be overlooking some fairly advantageous aspects of the new list. One of the main tenets of tactical planning in 40k is to give your opponents dilemmas, not problems. They can solve problems. (I read that in some tactica, but I forget where, so sorry for the lack of credit due). Given that faith is semi-unreliable, don't forget that you can use that to your advantage. Imagine that your opponents can choose to face a 50/50 rending 4xHB Retributor squad or not. He'll never know. The best assassin is one that doesn't know he is, because it's just as much a surprise to him. I think that never quite knowing how effective a unit will be is going to make fighting the Sororitas a little harder than most other armies, where you kind of know what you're getting.


There is only one case where a 50% chance is better than a 100% chance (when you want to lure the enemy close _and_ you successfully make your coin flip) and two where it's worse (you want to scare the enemy into keeping its distance, or they approach and you want a better chance of activating it). Dilemmas are not an inherently good thing. What you see as a dilemma, your opponent might see as you letting them pick the best option.



> Faith has the nearly unique advantage of being portable amongst units at your desire. It's not like Lascannons can be mystically teleported across the field as the player likes. Faith can be used when and where you need it, odds aside.


Again, that is not inherently an advantage - yes, you can move Faith around to power various abilities, but other armies don't _need_ Faith to power theirs. It might be less like teleporting lascannons than two Predator Annihilators that you're not allowed to fire at the same time.


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## [email protected]

AlexHolker said:


> And now, because you've lost 5/6ths of your choices per squad, it's easier to find a useful Act of Faith?
> 
> 
> There is only one case where a 50% chance is better than a 100% chance (when you want to lure the enemy close _and_ you successfully make your coin flip) and two where it's worse (you want to scare the enemy into keeping its distance, or they approach and you want a better chance of activating it). Dilemmas are not an inherently good thing. What you see as a dilemma, your opponent might see as you letting them pick the best option.
> 
> 
> Again, that is not inherently an advantage - yes, you can move Faith around to power various abilities, but other armies don't _need_ Faith to power theirs. It might be less like teleporting lascannons than two Predator Annihilators that you're not allowed to fire at the same time.


I think it might arguably be easier to use Faith. Before, it was a fundament of the list/build, somewhat forcing or at least heavily encouraging the player to maximize it's impacts. Now, it will occasionally turn situations the player has constructed well into exceptional results, and poorly executed or bad luck situations into recoverable ones. 

If I can make my opponent think something, I'm winning. I hope he does think I'm letting him pick, because I'm actually not. The faith point goes where I want it to. He can choose between facing the HB's or facing, as an example, Relentless MM's. I'm being a little loose with the concept, but that's faith in a nutshell: I can empower the unit of my choice, meaning both choices for the opponent are potentially bad ones.

Granted, this hinges on me playing well, but that's a trait outside the scope of any one army discussion. 

I think what I'm trying to say is that so many posters say what you managed to distill so nicely, namely that most people look at faith as _needed;_ I'm suggesting that the approach to faith is treating it like a Lascannon and shouldn't be. I'm trying to see it as something a little bit sideways, like an invulnerable save. Good, not reliable, but always makes your opponent consider what _might_ happen. Using up his brain cycles is good, it distracts him from playing better. 

I think there's a danger in equating armies' powers as well. We're not really sure what we're paying for the Faith abilities. Other armies don't need faith to power their abilities, but MEQs (for example) are generally more expensive. Talking from the standpoint of playing a pre-5th GK army, I know firsthand what happens when you put big, expensive models on the board. :biggrin: It's just more points per kill leaving the table. (Again, _very_ generally speaking.)

Don't get me wrong, I think it is easy to see Faith as MeltaBombs or a Rosarius. You buy something, and it works. However, that's what actually got me started on this thought. Nothing burns more than great wargear letting you down. 2+/4++? Eat some Lascannon and fail that save. Sigh. Been there. :angry: 

The power to Faith is that I can move that proverbial wargear to any unit in need. Paid-by-the-point wargear sticks to that model/unit. So I see it as discount wargear, bought at a fractional price, but not always on the unit either. I agree that you could see faith as some guns you can only fire one of, but if that gun can also move where needed on demand? Hotness. Yes, it's chancy, but there are good ways to make it work better, like the VSS. Keep an IC nearby, and you've got good odds. Take a wound, it's only better.

Perfect? No. Tricky? Yes. I think, though, it will make the Sisters a harder opponent and keeps them from being too much like MEQs. A lot of players I see think of them as IGs in power armor, and they'd be wrong to do so. (Was that too big a leap from MEQs to IG? Watch me go.) <-And that's not supposed to sound snarky, I just realized I kind of went in two directions at once.

J


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## [email protected]

..and should we move this to the Tactics forum?

J


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## WallWeasels

I don't really see your point. You just spent a long time basically to say "its a special rule". It really isn't impressive.

Honestly the powers aren't worth being unpredictable and that format will breed badly designed powers that are either to powerful (and thus the unit will be 'balanced' and crap normally) or to weak and thus useless to plan around. You preach a lot about tactics blather that mostly doesn't occur in 40k. Threats are threats and a unit that sometimes can kill a model but other times won't...is LESS of a threat than one who will always kill your models. Globally the faith powers are less effective and thats coming from the fact that I already thought the C:WH faith was unbalanced and "broken" because of it. Due to the fact that only 2 powers were realistically used and the others were "occasionally to rarely" used. Instead GW just said "heres a single power that most armies get always for a unit'. Its a global loss in rules for little gain and just reducing cost only worsens the image of the "power" of each unit. 
Although people expect pretty big reductions I am hardly holding my breath.

Also please use the edit function rather than double posting.


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## [email protected]

WallWeasels said:


> I don't really see your point. You just spent a long time basically to say "its a special rule". It really isn't impressive.
> 
> Honestly the powers aren't worth being unpredictable and that format will breed badly designed powers that are either to powerful (and thus the unit will be 'balanced' and crap normally) or to weak and thus useless to plan around. You preach a lot about tactics blather that mostly doesn't occur in 40k. Threats are threats and a unit that sometimes can kill a model but other times won't...is LESS of a threat than one who will always kill your models. Globally the faith powers are less effective and thats coming from the fact that I already thought the C:WH faith was unbalanced and "broken" because of it. Due to the fact that only 2 powers were realistically used and the others were "occasionally to rarely" used. Instead GW just said "heres a single power that most armies get always for a unit'. Its a global loss in rules for little gain and just reducing cost only worsens the image of the "power" of each unit.
> Although people expect pretty big reductions I am hardly holding my breath.
> 
> Also please use the edit function rather than double posting.


Let me try to re-approach this. I'll try to address each of your points, so help me out if I go off in strange areas or fail to communicate the point.

1. Unpredictability. I meant to equate it's unpredictability to the unpredictability of wargear, as a direct reply to the previous posts re:Lascannons/Predators, not as a general support of faith.

2. Planning around faith. I'm trying to say I suggest not doing so at all, and that doing so leads to exactly the things I've seen you and other deliver spot-on commentary on. A list planned on _execution_ of faith is very likely what you point it out to be. I want to try to say that using faith is more abstract than choosing meltas or flamers for a squad. 

3. Preaching Tactics. Sorry about that. Sometimes I get all ramped up and go into Televangelist mode. YMMV, but our group tend to execute a fair degree of tactics in the games they play, or at least, it seems that way to me. What I wanted to say here is that faith changes the approach to those tactics, creating a more nebulous and unsure item that monkeywrenches normal 40k thought processes.

4. Global rule loss. I tend to agree that losing a global rule hurts, but we shouldbe seeing improvements in cost to compensate. We trust GW, right? :laugh: What I wanted to say here is that it might be good for the player's approach to his army to be more able and comfortable to avoid using faith to hold up what should be an otherwise decent army. I think C:WH made players too excited to try to cram faith into the army, rather than build a good list and THEN consider how faith HELPED it. That's what I see in the list now.

Sorry about the DP faux pas!

J


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## MadCowCrazy

Welcome to the forums [email protected], hope you enjoy your stay.

So anyone managed to snag next months WD yet? It should be popping up in some stores about now.


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## asianavatar

> new plastics or old metals turned into finecast with the Sisters


Most likely not new plastics. There might be a chance we get finecast stuff. But more expensive finecast sisters or same price old metals seem like crappy options to me.


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## Vicktimization

SilverTabby said:


> Well, I guess I'll just have to settle for being one of the very few out here in forum-land that is both a 10+ year Sisters player, and one who is not unhappy with this list so far.


I understand your feelings. I picked up Sisters in 2002 or 2003 (I don't remember anymore), and they are still my favorite army. I need to test this new update before I am going to decide if I am happy with the changes or not, and I am waiting to test until the next WD comes out. 

There's definite potential, to be certain. And I agree with some of the previous posts as using the threat of faith to assist with messing with people's heads and distracting from the game at hand. As a female player, I tend to have people not take me seriously, and so this may assist with them having trouble sizing me up. Haha.

No matter what happens, I love what they did with Repentia. I already snatched up another box at this gaming store nearby that still has Sisters buried in the back of the store (It was even on sale!).

If they make stuff cheaper and give us enough wargear love, it should be quite good. And I will join you, then, SilverTabby, as one of the happy old dinosaurs that still have the short rhinos and other old-school models.


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## SilverTabby

[email protected] said:


> 2. Planning around faith. I'm trying to say I suggest not doing so at all, and that doing so leads to exactly the things I've seen you and other deliver spot-on commentary on. A list planned on _execution_ of faith is very likely what you point it out to be. I want to try to say that using faith is more abstract than choosing meltas or flamers for a squad.


Hear hear. I never took Faith into account when writing army lists. It was an added bonus, that occassionally came in handy, but most of the time I either forgot to use it or the rolls were the wrong way around to be useful to me. 

Knowing what each units' strengths are now with only a few AoF being available to them is actually better for writing lists, and gives them definate battlefield roles. Even if the AoF doesn't go off, or (like me) you forget they have it, they are in a position that works to their strengths, rather than every unit being considered Jacks of all Trades and being put in situations that don't necessarily suit them. 

I am keeping my fingers crossed for good points values, cleaning up the bits for my next Penitent engine and eying up a box of Wyches to represent Repentia...


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## mahavira

AlexHolker said:


> And now, because you've lost 5/6ths of your choices per squad, it's easier to find a useful Act of Faith?


Yes actually. The new acts of faith are almost always useful (except rending, which would require more MEQ enemies than I have to be great) and have roughly the same odds of working regardless of your squad size. The old powers were highly situational both in usefulness and in the ability to trigger them.

It's also not a sure thing that all squads only have one - we may well see on the army list that most squads have light of the emperor, it was just listed the once to avoid duplication in the limited space they have, and the command squad could easily have the celestian power as well. d6 faith points a round averages to 18 a game, which is well more than I could manage at 1500 points even with martyrdom. Seraphim reroll faith checks, so it may be that imagifers do too, which makes odds of success pretty good.


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## [email protected]

@SilverTabby Boo for leaving out this old C:WH player.  Just because I lost nearly every game and haven't played them since C:WH, is no reason to exclude people from the Ye Olde Olde Sisters club. LOL

@mahavira I'd caution a reconsideration of Rending. Even against non-MEQs. I'm so droolingly excited about that AoF. I'm thinking Orc Trukks, and BBEGs. If de-mech is the order of the day, Rending HB's will be very good at it, plus pick up anti-infantry when needed. I've been looking at a little mathhammer (ugh, I know) comparing the ~10 girl HB squad to an Exorcist. They come out pretty equal in a lot of ways. Both have ups and downs, but I'm thinking I might run some HB squads and see what shakes loose. But, like Exorcists, I think you need to go all they way or not at all. One Exorcist, or one HB squad will not cut it. Either bring 2-3 or take the other option.

J


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## andrewm9

mahavira said:


> Yes actually. The new acts of faith are almost always useful (except rending, which would require more MEQ enemies than I have to be great) and have roughly the same odds of working regardless of your squad size. The old powers were highly situational both in usefulness and in the ability to trigger them.
> 
> It's also not a sure thing that all squads only have one - we may well see on the army list that most squads have light of the emperor, it was just listed the once to avoid duplication in the limited space they have, and the command squad could easily have the celestian power as well. d6 faith points a round averages to 18 a game, which is well more than I could manage at 1500 points even with martyrdom. Seraphim reroll faith checks, so it may be that imagifers do too, which makes odds of success pretty good.


You might be able to attempt more Faith per game in smaller games, but I am fairly certain I almost never ran out of faith points in most games at or or over 2000 points even running St Celestine.


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## TheSpore

Well Im happy they at least got some sort of update I can't wait bring my old girls out of the closet, they were always fun to paint and fun to play.(Gawd that sound weird)


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## Revarien

So are we expecting an early 'preview' of this new White Dwarf this weekend or next? Kinda wondering if I should be excited... dreading...etc


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## MadCowCrazy

It should have hit some stores today and a few others tomorrow but the problem is finding someone who lives in an area where they arrive early and put on shelves early.

The guy who posted last months scans I've not been able to get a reply from so I dont know if we can count on him this month. So if anyone finds a store that has it on sale early please pick it up and send me the info 

My own WD should arrive next friday or the monday after so that's not early at all.


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## hells

i for one hope its soon, id love to fully try new rules and amoury this sunday at the club if its doable :3


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## WallWeasels

thought GW said they "deliver" on the last Saturday of the month? Not that I think GW would ever be able to keep a consistent schedule though


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## MadCowCrazy

Official GW stores put them on sale then, but private retailer put them up when they get them sometimes.


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## WallWeasels

Ah, didnt think of rogue traders :x Hmm well we should see something pretty soon I bet


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## Hurricane

So I figured this would be the place to post some of my personal questions since it involves SoB, the new codex, models, etc and you all are probably the most knowledgeable on the subject.

Someone is currently offering to trade me a lot of unpainted SoB metal models and I'm somewhat interested in trading a bunch of my Dark Eldar for them. I currently play Grey Knights and I thought the SoB could also serve as a cool Inquisitorial force or I could use their own codex so I would essentially have two armies for the price of one. So here are my questions to you all because looking through 70 pages of discussion takes forever. Thank you!

- I've heard from some people that the new SoB codex sucks, but the point values have not come out yet. What is your opinion of the new codex? Also, I see that the actual codex may come along in 2012, but does anyone have any timeframe as to when?

- Are there any major rumored changes to the model line? I imagine there will be plastic boxes, but what I mean is that will the overall theme of the SoB change? Will the armor look majorly different, will the hair be drastically different, etc? I would take the DE example as a yes to the above, but I think the SoB armor already looks pretty cool.

- I understand the trade is my own choice and in the end I will make the final decision, but does DE for metal SoB sound like a decent trade at this time? They are the new DE, but I thought this would be a good chance to pick up a bunch of models before they started selling for much more after the update.

Any help is appreciated! 
-


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## WallWeasels

Well I will answer your questions in the order you asked them:

-So far it does "suck" and its rather boring. The points values haven't come out but that won't inspire you to play sisters anymore. So far the first half is boring, uninspiring, and adds nothing because it has nothing to add on. This is closely tied with the models question in that...no models = nothing new. So we get a revamped, and ultimately worse (and this is coming from a pretty sloppy list of faith to begin with) faith system...with less rules, stat reductions and the hint that we're just a "horde armor in power armor". Currently my BIGGEST concern is leadership and I don't think its going to be magically remedied in the second half. Hordes cannot function without an ability to not run and so far...we have nothing to help that. All we have to hope for is a banner giving fearless and honestly...from what we had to fearless is a giant slap to the face. 

-No! None! Nope! Never! You imagine there will be plastics because you think this is an actual release; because it isn't. Its a shim-sham WD codex for reasons unknown. Although GW states its to "update to 5th edition" well thats a joke and a half. Really I can't see plastics ever being bad for sisters except possibly more "man-face" women (which GW has gotten better at not doing). 

-No its a pretty poor choice to me. Sure in "money value" you might be getting more models for the base cost but the quality difference from nice plastic dark eldar to entirely metal clunkers? Is pretty big. Honestly they wont be selling for much more after the update and will probably be selling for more before it. This update really won't inspire many sales from GW. 

To be honest your avatar is exactly what GW does to sisters in almost every release and this time they decided to go anal without lube :\

[edit] I will add that I am rather, noticeably, pessimistic about this release. This is mostly because its pretty bad so far and I find it laughable that people straggle onto hope that some amazing new wargear will save the day. As I have mentioned before in this thread: Even if, somehow, this codex becomes godly broken and ends up having 5 point models that somehow dominate the field...I really don't like the direction its going. Really dropping sisters below 10 each will significantly drop the "elite" image the army is supposed to have. When madmen priests are better in combat than "elite" sisters, I think we have a problem in how the rules are written. 

So my final advise is:
If you want to trade the sisters then wait as long as you can until we start hearing about the actual second half. You are going to feel like a damned fool if you jump on ship only to find its a burning wreck. Wonder why the person is actually getting rid of their sisters right after the first half of the update ships? Yeah...he thinks its as bad as I do. 
So I dont know what models this comes with but if it is JUST sisters (as in no rhinos, immolators or exorcists) then its a pretty bad trade. Although i really can't tell you if its a "good deal" without knowing the models being traded. since "a lot" and "a bunch" don't really say what they have and what you have to give :V 

Regardless, so far it appears as if the sisters are breaking up with the Ordo Hereticus as Matt Ward decided the INQ purely manages storm troopers and grey knights. We are "watched" by the inquisition (well more the ministorum is) and that seems to be. Seems the days of being the ordos militant of the Hereticus is gone.


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## MadCowCrazy

When doing any sort of trade I look at the monetary value. How many DE do you have to trade for a single Sister? If it's on a 1 for 1 bases then by all means go ahead. Sisters are too expensive to start for most people as they are ridiculously overpriced.
If you are trading at an equal value I'd say its a bad trade as the sisters are so overpriced for what you get. It all depends on you though, if you think it's a fair trade.

As for the codex the first part is very boring and doesn't really excite any of us old Sister players. It will all come down to the points cost if the army is viable or not but as for the units and stats it's a pretty boring codex. The Acts of Faith are rather boring as well, they could have just given the units a special rule instead of the AoF. Another problem is that the AoF only work in your turn and not your opponents, I guess the point is for you to do as much damage as you can in your turn and then die in your opponents turn if in assault so you can shoot them with bolters before they assault you and wipe out another unit.

So what we have so far is a codex full of units that are pretty bland, nothing to get over excited about, special rules that are pretty meh and Acts of Faith that are only good on some units.
It will all come down to the wargear and points costs, personally I'd say 8pt for a Battle Sisters, 10pt for a Celestian, Dominion or Retributor, 12pt for a Seraphim or Sisters Repentia and 50pt max for a Penitent Engine (40pt I'd price them at personally).

I'm probably wrong and they have similar points costs as before with a few tweaks here and there.

The wargear itself will somewhat make or break the army in aspects of fun and competitiveness. 1 Special weapon per 5 sisters at a minimum, we do know Dominions get 2 per 5 and Retributors will probably have 4 per 5 as all heavy support do.
As we lost our psychic defence I'm hoping nullrods will be handed out like cupcakes or perhaps a nullzone piece of wargear.

What the banners and laudhailers do I'm very curious to know but it's probably nothing too inspiring. I doubt there will be any new Sister specific weapons but if there was it would follow the bolter, flamer and melta trinity.

As GW is prone to let you down in everything they do in regards to the Sisters I'm fairly sure the wargear will be bland and boring as well.
As it stands right now Sisters have become crappy Spheeeze Mehreeenez and unless their wargear offers something unique and inspiring they will remain that way.


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## AlexHolker

Hurricane said:


> - I've heard from some people that the new SoB codex sucks, but the point values have not come out yet. What is your opinion of the new codex?


Points can make a codex competitive, but they can't make it good. A good codex should have things that make you think "that's so cool!" and this one doesn't.


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## SilverTabby

Strictly speaking, the Sisters units available in this dex are the same as were available in the previous one. So if you're running a pure Sisters force (like I do) then complainig that the choices are bland means you've always felt that way.

What they've done is move the special rules around. As I don't feel that special rules make the army, I'm fine with what we've got so far. In fact, now Retributors have Heavy Flamers again I'm happier than I was before. 

Wargear is a nice add-on, but the core, which we currently have the rules for, is perfectly workable with. With the rumoured points drop to bring costs in line with 5th / 6th, I'll be a very happy bunny.

As for WD delivery - most GW stores have a weekly delivery on a wednesday or thursday. WD would arrive with that, giving the staff a chance to read it cover to cover before release on the final saturday of the month.


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## hells

SilverTabby said:


> Strictly speaking, the Sisters units available in this dex are the same as were available in the previous one. So if you're running a pure Sisters force (like I do) then complainig that the choices are bland means you've always felt that way.


untrue, i think the new dex is bland because its essentially the same thing as before with a few minor tweaks/ to me a new dex for your army should have some cool new things something that gets you excited.

when i read the new dex there wasnt much, if anything the repentia got me a little excited cause they are now dangerous with thier new rules and i will be able to field them without worrying about how they would do, and thats really it in all honesty.

yet for other armies when i skim a white dwarf and see the new models they are getting it seems to be rather cool most times, tomb kings had me tempted cause those giant statues looked awesome as, greyknights werent too bad, all the fancy stuff seemed pretty awesome, admitadly the inqusition part was a tad disapointing for its smallness again but hey. :grin:


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## mahavira

They're saving the new stuff for a real codex when they've got plastics to release with it. To be honest, the changes they made to many of the existing units are interesting in my mind. Seraphim now have the equivalent of a bolter with assault 2, and that's without faith (reroll wounds?! Ouch). I can actually tell why Dominions are fast attack (and twin linking their weapons? Again, ouch). The different units are now genuinely distinct: even the non heavy/special weapons models in a unit are not the same as a regular battle sister - I think the army was MORE bland before. 

I will actually try repentia now they have 2 attacks and the ability to attack even when they die. Wargear may also address many current questions/complaints: if an imagifer gives sister units teh ability to reroll faith checks or their invulnerable save, for example, that may change people's tune a bit (particularly the faith), and it's very possible given that the old ability of Seraphim was identical to having an imagifer. If Celestians have the option of substituting a bolter for an additional hand weapon, they become potentially threatening in melee. How many special/heavy weapons can a command squad have? For that matter how big can such a squad be?

I can see why people who were successfully using the old rules might resent the changes, but barring a disaster in the army list and wargear I see a lot to like.


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## MadCowCrazy

I think the reason people like me who've been playing Sisters are a bit disappointed is because Faith for us was what defined the army. You won or lost based on Faith in allot of cases, you could compete with the best of them and it made us feel competitive.

Now the Faith is a big let down, if you could chose from any of the AoF available on any unit then yes, the new system would be pretty good. Army priority will be Rending, Twin-Linked and after this hope to god you dont need to use the other ones.

Sure Celestians will probably be our CC Sisters but I think most would rather take Death Cult than Celestians, more attacks, hits first in allot of cases, power weapons and good WS and average Strength. I seriously doubt Celestians of equal points could stand up to Death Cults or even Arco-Flagellants Act of Faith or not. They'd probably die faster if they used their AoF.

As for command squads I'm guessing 1 special or heavy weapon per 5, max 2. Seraphim bolt pistols have a range of 12" and you wont kill much with bolter fire unless you catch someone with armour 5 or higher out in the open and even then there will probably be too many of them to make a dent with bolt pistols. Flamers on the other hand might be good, but it will all come down to how many special or heavy weapons you can get and at what points costs.


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## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think the reason people like me who've been playing Sisters are a bit disappointed is because Faith for us was what defined the army. You won or lost based on Faith in allot of cases, you could compete with the best of them and it made us feel competitive.
> 
> Now the Faith is a big let down, if you could chose from any of the AoF available on any unit then yes, the new system would be pretty good. Army priority will be Rending, Twin-Linked and after this hope to god you dont need to use the other ones.
> 
> Sure Celestians will probably be our CC Sisters but I think most would rather take Death Cult than Celestians, more attacks, hits first in allot of cases, power weapons and good WS and average Strength. I seriously doubt Celestians of equal points could stand up to Death Cults or even Arco-Flagellants Act of Faith or not. They'd probably die faster if they used their AoF.
> 
> As for command squads I'm guessing 1 special or heavy weapon per 5, max 2. Seraphim bolt pistols have a range of 12" and you wont kill much with bolter fire unless you catch someone with armour 5 or higher out in the open and even then there will probably be too many of them to make a dent with bolt pistols. Flamers on the other hand might be good, but it will all come down to how many special or heavy weapons you can get and at what points costs.


Death cultists and acro flagellants can't shoot. Celestians are at least above average in combat and can shoot and actually have an armor save- naturally the death cultists and acro flagellants are and should be better. As to the hating on their faith power, if you're attacking and losing by so much that fearless is costing you wounds even with a 3+ save, well, you deserve what you get and at least you don't break in your turn, so they have to finish you off in their turn and will be open to being shot.

Seraphim: go from twin linked bolt pistols to 2 shots (I make the wild guess that rather than 2 S3 flamer templates they'll get one regular flame template) so their shooting output is similar to a regular sister squad in 12" range and they can assault afterwards which regular sisters cannot. They lost a point of initiative and went down to standard hit and run, but I see nothing to complain about. The weak point I always found with Seraphim is S3, but the ability to reroll wounds (and the faith is minumum 75% for them) makes them roughly S4 and they're attacking a unit that's more weakened than they would have before. Also very curious to see what paired inferno pistols cost now that you are shooting both of them.

Command Squad: Space marine command squads allow any of the members to use a special weapon including things like power swords or combi weapons. IG command squads allow any of the members to use a special weapon. It seems unlikely that a sisters command squad would be much different (cost on the other hand could be an issue). A regular celestian squad will likely have the restrictions you give, but no analogous unit to a SoB command squad is that limited.


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## WallWeasels

2 S3 I3 attacks doesnt make you above average at combat. Otherwise you are calling storm guardians above average >_> They are no way near the level of combat ablity of deathcultists and lack the defensive qualities of crusaders. He is refering to the AoFs usefulness compared to BosL from before. Fearless is better than running, but with its own disadvantage. 
Seraphim's faith cannot be used in combat and thus they are fixed at S3 always. Buff in shooting, loss in combat. Seraphim provide very little content to the army. They will be overshadowed by dominions even on an anti-infantry role.
Expecting any sister unit to "be like space marines" is setting up for disappointment. Given our previous command squads have always been generic celestians with a new name and the tagged on command-only units...we can expect a duplicate of celestians. But yeah :V


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## mahavira

WallWeasels said:


> 2 S3 I3 attacks doesnt make you above average at combat. Otherwise you are calling storm guardians above average >_> They are no way near the level of combat ablity of deathcultists and lack the defensive qualities of crusaders. He is refering to the AoFs usefulness compared to BosL from before. Fearless is better than running, but with its own disadvantage.
> Seraphim's faith cannot be used in combat and thus they are fixed at S3 always. Buff in shooting, loss in combat. Seraphim provide very little content to the army. They will be overshadowed by dominions even on an anti-infantry role.
> Expecting any sister unit to "be like space marines" is setting up for disappointment. Given our previous command squads have always been generic celestians with a new name and the tagged on command-only units...we can expect a duplicate of celestians. But yeah :V


Celestians are above average for the army, and unlike storm guardians at least have WS 4 and the ability to have S4.

My bad on the seraphim act of faith, though to be honest I still think with their increased shooting damage they'll be attacking a further weakened unit and are at least no worse off then before. 

Re: the command squad, is there a reason to think they'll be worse equipped than IG command squads? Even platoon command squads can have any of the members given a special weapon.


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## WallWeasels

The command squad in guards sake are fixed at 5 models and designed with that in mind. However IF they were like guard (and fixed at 5) you'll end up replacing celestians with the upgrade units. What good is a relentless squad of 5 models? This with the general images we've seen (Cruddaces SoB army to be had a command squad of 10) mean it'll just be a celestian squad with a banner option, medic and dialogus, and lack a superior (which means they rely on the canoness to act as one, thus making their faith power only EVER possible on a 3+ at best). 

I doubt I will use seraphim because dominions are to "no duh" choices due to scout. Celestians still won't excel at combat. The worst part about their AoF is its very punishing. You have to use it before you charge in the assault phase. This means you need to be able to charge...meaning you didn't shoot your bolters at all. Now of course to assault you needed to not fire your bolter...but if you chose to do so under the idea that you'd have your 3 attacks at S4...and now are S3 and base 9LD, thats a big blow to your assault.


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## mahavira

WallWeasels said:


> The command squad in guards sake are fixed at 5 models and designed with that in mind. However IF they were like guard (and fixed at 5) you'll end up replacing celestians with the upgrade units. What good is a relentless squad of 5 models? This with the general images we've seen (Cruddaces SoB army to be had a command squad of 10) mean it'll just be a celestian squad with a banner option, medic and dialogus, and lack a superior (which means they rely on the canoness to act as one, thus making their faith power only EVER possible on a 3+ at best).
> 
> I doubt I will use seraphim because dominions are to "no duh" choices due to scout. Celestians still won't excel at combat. The worst part about their AoF is its very punishing. You have to use it before you charge in the assault phase. This means you need to be able to charge...meaning you didn't shoot your bolters at all. Now of course to assault you needed to not fire your bolter...but if you chose to do so under the idea that you'd have your 3 attacks at S4...and now are S3 and base 9LD, thats a big blow to your assault.


You maybe don't have the full shooting, but you still have your flamer/heavy flamer and bolt pistols before your assault (an option that didn't exist before - say what you like about bolt pistols but they're better than nothing). We can't say with certainty that imagifers don't allow you to reroll faith checks, so regular celestians may well have 4+ reroll, which is reasonably reliable, and the command squad can be relentless and you roll that in the movement phase, so whether they're shooting bolters or heavy bolters or multimeltas they can assault too. Are they the assaultiest troops in the game, not by a long shot, but I'd be a lot happier assaulting now than I would have been under the old rules - I can actually imagine willingly declaring an assault and even winning it.

Dominions are certainly a good choice, though I'm not 100% sure I'd say one should never take seraphim (let's see point costs and wargear options before judging that) as they will be dishing out a similar level of fire to a regular battle sister squad with greater mobility, potential rerolls to wound on the shooting, the ability to assault afterwards, and fairly close to a 3+/5++ save (rerolling 6's isn't quite as good as 5+, but it's pretty close). I'll make the wild guess that dominions are going to be more expensive than they currently are and seraphim will be less expensive.

Given that they didn't really have a major release for august, it's really annoying they didn't release the entire codex already - I'm sure the ogre guys would like a fully dedicated WD, and they could easily have fit the SoB army list and wargear descriptions - for all we know half of the complaints are addressed by wargear.


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## Revarien

mahavira said:


> ...I'm sure the ogre guys would like a fully dedicated WD, and they could easily have fit the SoB army list and wargear descriptions - for all we know half of the complaints are addressed by wargear.


Speaking as both an Ogre owner and a Sisters of Battle owner... I've seen far less support of Sisters of Battle (by a LOT) than of Ogres, as in they're never in a White Dwarf, and from my perspective would wish they'd put MORE coverage on SoB... but that's just me.

As far as the wargear... yeah, I sure hope so... a hell of a big list of nice shiny things (I'm looking at you psychotropic gernades!) would make this army decent, but I'm more concerned with point costs and prerequisites to take other units (I'm calling it right now... 0-1 on battle conclave units! ).


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## Zion

Having given myself some time to sit back and think about the changes that were made so far I'm not too upset with them. In fact some of them are downright wonderful (WS5 Canoness is a great thing!) and I do like some of the faith abilities. And I'll admit giving the vehicles a 6++ isn't a bad thing. Sure it's not a great save, but they get it versus anything and sometimes that's all that matters.

I will say the unit specific faith abilities in the end seems to be moving away from what GW seems to be trying to do by making all the special rules USRs now (so long Holy Rage. Thanks for getting me a 2nd Turn assault/destruction of a Venerable Dreadnought!). Instead of a short list of general powers we now have one per unit and have to keep track of what each one gets?

Why does this make me feel like Ward wanted the USRs for ease of play and Cruddance wanted the special rules and this is how they split the difference?

EDIT: I know that last bit probably didn't make as much sense as I meant it to, but what I'm saying is the rules seem a little bipolar. On one hand you're streamlining all the special rules you can to USRs, but on the other every unit gets it's own special faith ability that is unique to that unit type. It almost seems like things weren't really meshed well.

And has anyone tracked down White Dwarf 280 yet? I rather want to give the new 'dex a try this upcoming weekend but I can't if I can't get point totals and wargear.


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## Suijin

WallWeasels said:


> The command squad in guards sake are fixed at 5 models and designed with that in mind. However IF they were like guard (and fixed at 5) you'll end up replacing celestians with the upgrade units. What good is a relentless squad of 5 models? This with the general images we've seen *(Cruddaces SoB army to be had a command squad of 10)* mean it'll just be a celestian squad with a banner option, medic and dialogus, and lack a superior (which means they rely on the canoness to act as one, thus making their faith power only EVER possible on a 3+ at best).
> 
> I doubt I will use seraphim because dominions are to "no duh" choices due to scout. Celestians still won't excel at combat. The worst part about their AoF is its very punishing. You have to use it before you charge in the assault phase. This means you need to be able to charge...meaning you didn't shoot your bolters at all. Now of course to assault you needed to not fire your bolter...but if you chose to do so under the idea that you'd have your 3 attacks at S4...and now are S3 and base 9LD, thats a big blow to your assault.


Which image shows a comand squad of 10??? I went back and looked and didn't see any in the WD or the getting started part on GW website. I did see a 6 model command squad in the getting started and the last page in the WD that must have the Canoness included in it.

I expect the imagnifiers to give a reroll of the faith roll, since that is what the seraphim get. I like the mechanics of the new faith system (I do miss the invulnerable and the +2 initiative of course), except for only being able to use it in your turn. This especially hurts the celestians and the repentia. If your repentia get charged in the opponents turn then they are totally gone, and will not likely get many attacks back at I1. Other than that a unit of 19 repentia + 1 mistress would be really scary on the field.


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## SilverTabby

Revarien said:


> Speaking as both an Ogre owner and a Sisters of Battle owner... I've seen far less support of Sisters of Battle (by a LOT) than of Ogres, as in they're never in a White Dwarf, and from my perspective would wish they'd put MORE coverage on SoB... but that's just me.
> 
> As far as the wargear... yeah, I sure hope so... a hell of a big list of nice shiny things (I'm looking at you psychotropic gernades!) would make this army decent, but I'm more concerned with point costs and prerequisites to take other units (I'm calling it right now... 0-1 on battle conclave units! ).


Just a note on wargear: 

1) Don't expect many, if any, weapon options that aren't already available on a model, or are pouch-sized. No new models means WYSIWYG will feature in the writers minds.

2) Leading on from (1), don't expect much new wargear. Whatever new shinies they give us now have to be guarunteed to make it into the proper codex, so they will likely err on the side of caution and only include what they *know* is going to stick. 

Which does unfortunatly mean they may well limit Inferno pistols to Seraphim superiors. There is a plasma pistol model that can stand in for it, and a canoness hand that can be chopped in, but no trooper armed with them...


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## MadCowCrazy

Anyone checked their local rogue trader for next months WD?


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## Zion

Nothing at mine but he tends to get it the same time the GW stores do.


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## WallWeasels

Suijin said:


> Which image shows a comand squad of 10??? I went back and looked and didn't see any in the WD or the getting started part on GW website. I did see a 6 model command squad in the getting started and the last page in the WD that must have the Canoness included in it.
> 
> I expect the imagnifiers to give a reroll of the faith roll, since that is what the seraphim get. I like the mechanics of the new faith system (I do miss the invulnerable and the +2 initiative of course), except for only being able to use it in your turn. This especially hurts the celestians and the repentia. If your repentia get charged in the opponents turn then they are totally gone, and will not likely get many attacks back at I1. Other than that a unit of 19 repentia + 1 mistress would be really scary on the field.


It is from this: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=17700021a 

Which was posted shortly after the change to "sisters of battle" on the GW website and clearly shows a heavy flamer + melta + dialogus + hospitaller and 9 sisters (10 including celestine). Not amazing proof of anything sine its hardly a full "army" but its a decent shot at the general, and fairly unsurpsing, choices the command squad gets.


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## Suijin

Interesting for sure to have the command squad possibly 10 models. With relentless and maybe some nice heavy weapons it would be a nice squad, but those didn't show anything but assault weapons on the models besides the usual bolters.

It will be interesting to see if we get blessed amunition for the base sisters (or the vechicles still) to ignore cover. Personally I would still say it is a long shot, but it is one way that the wargear may make the army much better than it appears now.


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## MadCowCrazy

Suijin said:


> Interesting for sure to have the command squad possibly 10 models. With relentless and maybe some nice heavy weapons it would be a nice squad, but those didn't show anything but assault weapons on the models besides the usual bolters.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if we get blessed amunition for the base sisters (or the vechicles still) to ignore cover. Personally I would still say it is a long shot, but it is one way that the wargear may make the army much better than it appears now.


If they gave Blessed Ammo to regular Sisters I think they would revamp it somewhat. +1S like GKs or if they wanted to keep the ignore cover theme then perhaps -1 or -2 to Cover Saves. So a 4+ would become a 5+ or 6+ save.

I'd love to see Retributors with Blessed Ammo though and 4 Heavy weapons per 5 Sisters with a unit size of 5-20 :crazy:
S5 Ap4 Rending AoF and Ignore Cover would be pretty good, it would still suck vs Vehicles but it would make up for the Sisters lack of Long Range AV.
Why? Well it would be deadly vs most transports and units that need cover to survive, we would still need to get close with out Meltas and Multi-Meltas but at least we could soften them up pretty good.

Someone bringing 30 missiles launchers vs you? With this you would have a good chance to simply wipe them off the table. Vehicles and Dreads could still be a problem but something like this would make Sisters pretty unique.
This is why it will never happen... :crazy:


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## Katie Drake

I'm really hoping that the Sisters' special bolter ammunition is a flat +1S instead of ignoring cover, because ignoring cover is only useful in some situations, whereas +1S is _always_ good.


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## WallWeasels

Like +1S option for almost all units? I really doubt it, although it would be nice. I doubt much will give psy-bolts effects while having another name. If fire ammo = no cover then blessed could be...reroll armor saves (please )


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## [email protected]

Katie Drake said:


> I'm really hoping that the Sisters' special bolter ammunition is a flat +1S instead of ignoring cover, because ignoring cover is only useful in some situations, whereas +1S is _always_ good.


 
I tend to agree, with the caveat that ignoring cover might help to de-mech opponents per haps a little more than +1S. Even at +1S, won't you need to still be hauling a heavy weapon in order to glance/pen a transport? (I ask, because there's a very good chance I'm ignorant of something, see handle). I think it might be very nice to have cover ignoring HB's. Everything out of power armor now _fears_ that HB squad. 

Let me see what I can figure out here, vs AV11:
4xHB's 
12 x .66 hits x.167 6's x No cover x.167 Immobilize= ~22%
12 x .66 hits(at S6) x .33 5-6's x ~.33 to Immobilize x .5 lost to cover = ~43%
Seems you might be correct...didn't include Rending at all here.

Exorcist
3.5 x .66 hits x (.167 (3's) x .167 to Immob + .5 (4+'s) x .5 to Immob) x .5 lost to cover = ~32%

Somebody make sure I didn't mess all that math up.

J


----------



## Zion

I think Blessed Ammo would probably give the firer some kind of bonus (rerolling hits and/or wounds being the most likely), assuming it stays in.

Either way it'll be interesting. It honestly looks like Ward did most of the unit stat work (which is nice since he -can- produce some strong unit lists) and Cruddance wrote the Faith rules and probably the background information (being more familiar with the Sisters that's no shock there that he'd do it over Ward). So the real question comes down to who set the points cost (Cruddance has trouble doing a good job with that) and the wargear (again, Cruddance suffers a bit here).

As much as I'm sure the net will hate me for this but I hope Ward did both portions. That'd give us cheap Sisters with some nice Wargear options that could really make us dangerous on the table again. I'm not hating on Cruddance, and I hope that Cruddance continues to improve as a codex writer because he has some really neat ideas, but when it comes to writing things that do a good job at killin' stuff, Ward does it better. 

And before the internet gets all mad at me and stops returning my phonecalls or going to the movies with me: All I'm saying is that he can write some solid army rules without needing a plethora of army specific rules to do it (he rarely uses new special rules and when he does it seems to only be for covering anything that doesn't exist in some fashion as a USR). That said I am still not a fan of all his fluff work. Who knows, maybe with the update he'll knock off the constant Sister smiting (I do have a theory that he was doing it because he saw the army as weak and was doing it as a form of protest, or he got trounced back in 2nd or 3rd edition a lot by a Sisters army at his FLGS. Either way I wouldn't be surprised to know that GW made him do this to stem the "Ward is a Sister hater!" statements that are so popular.).


----------



## mahavira

Zion said:


> I think Blessed Ammo would probably give the firer some kind of bonus (rerolling hits and/or wounds being the most likely), assuming it stays in.
> 
> Either way it'll be interesting. It honestly looks like Ward did most of the unit stat work (which is nice since he -can- produce some strong unit lists) and Cruddance wrote the Faith rules and probably the background information (being more familiar with the Sisters that's no shock there that he'd do it over Ward). So the real question comes down to who set the points cost (Cruddance has trouble doing a good job with that) and the wargear (again, Cruddance suffers a bit here).
> 
> As much as I'm sure the net will hate me for this but I hope Ward did both portions. That'd give us cheap Sisters with some nice Wargear options that could really make us dangerous on the table again. I'm not hating on Cruddance, and I hope that Cruddance continues to improve as a codex writer because he has some really neat ideas, but when it comes to writing things that do a good job at killin' stuff, Ward does it better.
> 
> And before the internet gets all mad at me and stops returning my phonecalls or going to the movies with me: All I'm saying is that he can write some solid army rules without needing a plethora of army specific rules to do it (he rarely uses new special rules and when he does it seems to only be for covering anything that doesn't exist in some fashion as a USR). That said I am still not a fan of all his fluff work. Who knows, maybe with the update he'll knock off the constant Sister smiting (I do have a theory that he was doing it because he saw the army as weak and was doing it as a form of protest, or he got trounced back in 2nd or 3rd edition a lot by a Sisters army at his FLGS. Either way I wouldn't be surprised to know that GW made him do this to stem the "Ward is a Sister hater!" statements that are so popular.).


I have trouble imagining they care whether fans think Ward hates sisters.

As to blessed ammunition, if it denies cover save it'll probably be renamed (it's essentially the same as dragonfire rounds). Never really understood blessing to change cover saves - now negating invulnerable saves is a whole other story (and one I would understand blessing having something to do with). I also hope blessed prometheum (if they keep the name) does something other than the hugely illogical 'extra scary to people who shouldn't care or even be able to tell the difference'.


----------



## Katie Drake

[email protected] said:


> I think it might be very nice to have cover ignoring HB's. Everything out of power armor now _fears_ that HB squad.


That's the issue, though. Cover ignoring makes stuff inside power armor... not care, at all. Imagine Retributors with S6 HBs that could activate Rending with an Act of Faith - that unit could absolutely eat vehicles and infantry (of all sorts) alive, whereas cover ignoring S5 heavy bolters aren't nearly as scary (though Rending would make them better, of course).

I personally only expect a couple of units to be able to take special ammunition (Retributors, Immolator, possibly Celestians as well, depending if they end up as Troops or Elites).


----------



## Zion

Oh! I was just flipping through the codex pt 1 again trying to get and the Immolator mentions one of the varients is "heavy bolters loaded with deadly incendiary rounds". Anyone else hoping for some nice hellfire rounds?


----------



## [email protected]

Katie Drake said:


> That's the issue, though. Cover ignoring makes stuff inside power armor... not care, at all.


Sorry, that's actually what I meant to say! 

Sure, MEQs are still going to not care, but they didn't care all that much to start with. Ye Olde 4+ saves now have nowhere to hide, literally. Then again, if I really want to ignore cover, I should just take me some flamers like a good sister should. :biggrin:

I was just thinking that, in terms of de-meching, it really @#$%'s to have that rending hit or decent pen roll negated by cover. Most people are probably going to have their mech in some kind of cover, so negating that makes them more vulnerable. With HB's they are already deadly to infantry anyway, albeit more so with S6. Or am I overlooking something?

J


----------



## Synack

I'm hoping for +1S myself tbh. I'm also hoping immo's can swap their flammers to HB's and can take the ammo too, if it +1S.


----------



## [email protected]

Synack said:


> I'm hoping for +1S myself tbh. I'm also hoping immo's can swap their flammers to HB's and can take the ammo too, if it +1S.


Now that, I'd like to see. I think it'd make the Imm's pretty decent anti-transport, if still not anti-tank, leaving your girls to deal with the heavier AV. A good supporting fire for anti-infantry as well. I'm not liking the flamers too much; I think the mobile range is too important to the sisters. I.e., it's better to have foot-slogging anti-infantry than foot-slogging anti-tank. Figure once the sisters are dropped off, the Imm is still a threat to pretty much everything on the board with MM or HB, given that combat has likely collapsed to the objectives or local superiority contests.

J


----------



## WallWeasels

Zion said:


> I think Blessed Ammo would probably give the firer some kind of bonus (rerolling hits and/or wounds being the most likely), assuming it stays in.


Depends on what they imply by blessed. It isn't like its "holy water vs demons" or anything, its just "faith in a bullet". Nothing to say you couldn't make it "opponents reroll successful saves" or something along those lines. Negating cover alone is rather...specific :laugh:

oh any +1S always is better than negate-cover. As mentioned this is purely because cover is situational...strength is not. Sure I be tthere would be tons of situations you might go "damn i wished I ignored cover" and thats why you like the idea...but when you keep rolling 2s instead of those 3s to wound  you'll more likely be wishing for the +1S. Also S6 heavy bolters increases the tank hunting potential of heavy bolters with rendning.


----------



## [email protected]

WallWeasels said:


> ...any +1S always is better than negate-cover. As mentioned this is purely because cover is situational...strength is not.


Doesn't it depend on who you're fighting? At least in terms of infantry? I mean, armor 4+ and cover 4+ just means ALL your wounds land, versus losing half to cover. Against power armor, I'm sold on S6, since more saves means more fails, means more dead guys. 

I'm seeing:
12HB = 8 hits = ~5 wounds. No armor or cover = 5 dead guys.
or
12HB = 8 hits = ~7 wounds (S6), but 3-4 lost for cover saves. 

Granted, this excludes power armour and vehicles, but those are arguably 'situational' as well. Note, I don't intend any sarcasm or pickiness here, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as I don't see it your way, and figure I must be wrong. :biggrin:

J


----------



## WallWeasels

Yes it does vary on infantry but we also have to be realistic. 
MEQ are the most common force you'll seein 40k and this is why we always text numbers off a T4 3+ save model...since it's common. There are more infantry purposes to 6s than than for no cover. S6 also gives t3 instant death ability for most nonMEQ armies. So, if you gave people a choice she writing a list, I would bet S6 would comeup significantly more often than those who'd pick no cover.


----------



## Suijin

Yeah I guess ignoring cover vs vechicles could be quite nice, but it doesn't help much against infantry.

Even 4 HB aren't amazing even at S6 and rending:
12 shots at BS4
8 hits
6.66 wounds versus T4, with ~1.3 rending
~ 3 dead MEQ

10 sisters rapid firing bolters
20 shots at BS4
13.3 hits
6.66 wounds
1.6 dead MEQ

So not really all that in either case. Even against vechicles the rending will only get you 1 or 2 glance/pens.

Some of this comes from me being underwhelmed in general by most shooting in the game.


----------



## WallWeasels

Uh not sure how reliable this is (as its here-say from here-say) but from warseer someone said:



> Not really sure where to put it so that thread is as good as any other I suppose. Some info on the SoB pricing started to pop on a french forum.
> 
> - Overall some units are costlier than before but not that much (Regular Sisters, Celestian, Dominion, Retributor).
> - Some are less costly (Repentia, Seraph but pistols are costly, especially the melta ones cost more than a Fist)
> - Special character are relatively cheap, nothing above 120 pts, multiple below 100.
> - Heavy weapons cheaper than before (MM cost cut more than in half).


If this is true...:|


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Regular Battle Sisters more expensive than before? Wtf? Why? Because they got frag, krak and a bolt pistol? I'd rather not have any of those if it made them 3pt cheaper as I would hardly ever use them!

If this is true then there is something seriously wrong going on here.

Source



Google Translate said:


> Good level of costs (seen on the WD), so I'll try to tell me the most without taking the wrath of the moderation
> 
> Overall the units are more expensive than before.
> 
> Units higher than before: Celeste, SOB base (which are the only choices of troops), Dominion, Retributors. Bcp not generally
> Cheaper units: repentias, Seraphines (but much cheaper pair of rather expensive especially gun melting than a gauntlet + energy)
> 
> The characters are Spé gifts for their stats and bonuses. None of them exceeded 120 points. And several are in - 100 points
> 
> Heavy weapons are much cheaper than before and including the MF, which sees more than its price divided by 2
> 
> That's basically, if there are questions that have more, I hear you


- Overall some units are costlier than before but not by that much (Regular Sisters, Celestian, Dominion, Retributor).
- Basic Sisters are the only troop choice. They start at 9 + Sister Superior and apparently no free special/heavy weapons based on number (unlike SM tactical).
- Some are less costly (Repentia, Seraph but pistols are costly, especially the melta ones cost more than a Fist)
- Special character are relatively cheap, nothing above 120 pts, multiple below 100.
- Heavy weapons cheaper than before (MM cost cut more than in half, dear god the time it required me to understand that MF = Multi Fuseur = Multi Melta in French).
- Penitent Engine is indeed HS, 0-3 per slot

Found this:


> Basic sister is 12 points.
> 
> Full squad of 10 starts at 125 points.


----------



## Necrosis

None of the characters are above 120 points? So Saint Celestine is 120 points? WTF? She should be more expensive I was expecting her to be 175 points or even higher.

Also battle sisters are now 12 points a model? WTF? Wow, GW, congratulations if you have ruined the army. I was expecting them to be 10 points a model, not 12. And before you make the argument "They got frag, krak and a pistol", let me remind you so did guardsmen and there point cost went down, not to mention they got orders while our acts of faith got nerfed.


----------



## mahavira

Always the idea that the price of a base sister was going down was wrong. Basic battle sisters are too much better than an IG veteran to be even 10. 10 is an IG veteran with a lasgun and carapace armor. A sister with a bolter and power armor HAS to be more than that.


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## Necrosis

All troop choices were going down in price. Also 9 points is an Imperial Veteran with lasgun and carapace armour (also its an expensive upgrade that not worth it, if we want to compare terrible upgrades let me pull out the grey knight codex with warrior henchmen). If your wonder how I got to 9 it is cause you have to pay 10 points for your Sergeant.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Always the idea that the price of a base sister was going down was wrong. Basic battle sisters are too much better than an IG veteran to be even 10. 10 is an IG veteran with a lasgun and carapace armor. A sister with a bolter and power armor HAS to be more than that.


To this argument I point to Crusaders with power weapon and stormshield for 15pts, I guess if you removed the power weapon and stormshield you would end up at -15pts.

Heck with the above arguments a normal space marine should be 20pt and a GK 30pts.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> All troop choices were going down in price. Also 9 points is an Imperial Veteran with lasgun and carapace armour (also its an expensive upgrade that not worth it, if we want to compare terrible upgrades let me pull out the grey knight codex with warrior henchmen). If your wonder how I got to 9 it is cause you have to pay 10 points for your Sergeant.


You can't not have a sargeant so it's the same difference.


----------



## Necrosis

I really hope that guy who originally posted that info is just a french troll.


mahavira said:


> You can't not have a sargeant so it's the same difference.


But then a battle sister would be 11 points per model (10 for the sisters +1 for the superior). Or 10.5 now (since the superior is an extra 5 points).


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> To this argument I point to Crusaders with power weapon and stormshield for 15pts, I guess if you removed the power weapon and stormshield you would end up at -15pts.
> 
> Heck with the above arguments a normal space marine should be 20pt and a GK 30pts.


Crusaders are an elite that a) has no gun, b) can't be taken unless there is also an inquisitor in the army.

Not exactly sure how you come to your costs for a regular space marine or grey knight so I can't comment.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Crusaders are an elite that a) has no gun, b) can't be taken unless there is also an inquisitor in the army.
> 
> Not exactly sure how you come to your costs for a regular space marine or grey knight so I can't comment.


Look at the warrior hencemen, to give him power armour and a bolter it would cost him 15 points. So a space marine who has the same thing but better stats must cost even more points thus they must be 20 points. And a grey knight who even has better wargear then the space marine must cost 30 points.

As for your orginal point, just take coteaz.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> I really hope that guy who originally posted that info is just a french troll.
> 
> 
> But then a battle sister would be 11 points per model (10 for the sisters +1 for the superior). Or 10.5 now (since the superior is an extra 5 points).


Not seeing how that's an argument that a S4 AP5 gun vs a S3 AP - gun and 3+ vs 4+ armor save shouldn't be meaningfully more expensive, forgetting the 6+ invulnerable save (you may not like it but it's there and has to be accounted for) and faith rules (which unlike IG vets are part of the base unit - orders are paid for with the unit that can give them - IG vets can only get it from HQ command squads). Sorry, I can't see a price cut, and there is a reasonable argument for a price increase. To my mind it was never the sisters themselves that were overpriced (other units in the army, and all vehicles, absolutely). Consider that in the 3E book to have a battle sister with frag and krak grenades she was 14 and couldn't even have a bolt pistol.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> Look at the warrior hencemen, to give him power armour and a bolter it would cost him 15 points. So a space marine who has the same thing but better stats must cost even more points thus they must be 20 points. And a grey knight who even has better wargear then the space marine must cost 30 points.
> 
> As for your orginal point, just take coteaz.


So you spend 100 points for the privilege of taking multiple warbands - that impacts what cost they have to be.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> So you spend 100 points for the privilege of taking multiple warbands - that impacts what cost they have to be.


Oh but you totally ignore the rest of my post. Also coteaz is a great deal for his points.


----------



## Necrosis

Also veteran have access to 3 different special weapons and can take a heavy weapon, they can also ride in a chimera which allows them to shoot all there special weapons without getting out. Also have access to more wargear. Carapace armour in the end is a terrible overpriced upgrade which should never be add into an equation/argument.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> Oh but you totally ignore the rest of my post. Also coteaz is a great deal for his points.


If you prefer me to specifically address it, I agree that working out the points for a warrior henchman comes up with strange results. I was just taking a base troop type with a similar statline to the SoB base troop type, noting the clear superiority of the SoB base troop type and assuming that clearly the SoB should be more expensive. Similarly comparison to tactical marines suggests they have to be less than 16, probably by a fair bit (strength and toughness being expensive stats). Not being a game designer, that is the extent of my argument.


----------



## mahavira

Necrosis said:


> Also veteran have access to 3 different special weapons and can take a heavy weapon, they can also ride in a chimera which allows them to shoot all there special weapons without getting out. Also have access to more wargear. Carapace armour in the end is a terrible overpriced upgrade which should never be add into an equation/argument.


You buy a chimera separately, so it's hard to gague what effect that should have, and they are more expensive than a rhino (also better). If you can suggest a point cost for the superior transport option, I will listen with interest.

If you prefer to compare non-carapace veterans, you are down to a 5+ (aka non existent against a great many common weapons) armor save and still have a lasgun. More and broader special/heavy weapon options count for something, but I'm still seeing a big gap.

EDIT: Just checked my 3E dex: 10 battle sisters with a veteran superior was 124. If as MCC posted a squad of 10 battle sisters with a superior is 125, this isn't even an increase in price.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> If you prefer me to specifically address it, I agree that working out the points for a warrior henchman comes up with strange results. I was just taking a base troop type with a similar statline to the SoB base troop type, noting the clear superiority of the SoB base troop type and assuming that clearly the SoB should be more expensive. Similarly comparison to tactical marines suggests they have to be less than 16, probably by a fair bit (strength and toughness being expensive stats). Not being a game designer, that is the extent of my argument.


Was a SOB overpowered? They were good for there point cost but they were not OP. Now GW decides to nerf there rules and make them more expensive and you say "It's okay." Also you have to compare the rest of the codex. Guard have great tanks, can mass tons of infantry. Space marines are good at everything. At 12 points there is only a 3 point difference between a battle sisters and a space wolf.

I can't see myself having fun or winning games with sisters at 12 points per model, unless the dice gods intervene.


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## Shandathe

Sounds like it's time to gather the pitchforks and torches... Good thing I started on that after last month...


----------



## WallWeasels

The issue of comparing stats vs points vs codexs is that the argument means nothing. Veterans cost what they cost because total weapon options (regardless of weapon choices/cost), what they provide for the army, and the composition in the army. I would assume if guard had a 3+ unit it would not cost 15 points a model like a marine would. 

I dunno if GW does this on purpose...but its usually how their rules work out. Generally good troops choices have less amazing elite/heavy choices...and bad troops have better support. *shrugs*


----------



## [email protected]

Well, can we hope it a conversion from metric to standard that's making it look so bad? 

Despite what could potentially lead me to abandon playing and sell all my GW if things are as they seem, I can see troops not diving in price for a few reasons. They are the game winning items, so GW seems to price them a little higher than they might for just their gear. I think taking pricing from the standpoint of gear/stats alone doesn't address the game currency exchange inside the mechanics of the win condition. 

12 points does sound awfully high for a basic sister, especially when so many limitations are placed on them, like min unit size, etc. However, I think that opinion is based more from my inability to properly use the unit than much else. For me, it's easy to see how to use some units in the game, but troops, especially sisters, have always been too weak to use like the more specialized units, and too many points to risk. It creates a mental block for me that makes me lose games. 

My new, masterfully crafted, epic scope plan is to field a ton of troops. Shocking, I know. I'm going to have some specialists, for sure, but I'm looking to see if I can win with 'all' troops, instead. 

So, 12 points isn't too bad. It's also harder and harder to shave points the farther down you go. Each point becomes more and more valuable as the model cost approaches proverbial '0'. If the game designer wants a model to cost a point or two less at 50 points, it isn't likely to unbalance the game much, but if he shaves that point on a 10 point model, he's just given the player a 10% increase in resources. Additionally, when it comes to commonly used units, especially 'forced to take' units like Troops, a reduction in 1 point would give you basically two more models, a 10%+ increase in forces. That's probably how they weighted it, looking at larger scales. If they really got fancy, they could point cost it based on total army size or %'s. For example, we all know one Exorcist is ok, but 3 is better, so why not make each one slightly more expensive to put in? I'm not suggesting we go and make it all not fun and what not, but small point size games do suffer from a higher per capita % impact. 

J


----------



## WallWeasels

Because increasing the cost of the exorcist implies it needed a higher cost to compensate for its power (didn't). Sure changing a tank from 135 to 140 might not change much, but it implies a lot of the image of the authors intents. While changing a model from 11 to 12 points does impact the game when you need a minimum of 20. One might say that "veterans made the untis cost 125 to begin with" and this is true...but not hugely important because the "points per model" in 5th edition standard punishes (or emphasizes) making units larger in price. This means for every sister above 10, you are punished 1 point per model more for little reason other than "cruddace wrote it". If anything you should encourage (given the lack of use of 11+ squads already) the use of larger squads...not discourage it.
It, as a sign of development, is a pretty bad idea.

Sadly we wont hear much more from the frenchies until tomorrow...given that it is around 3am there


----------



## Necrosis

To be honest I'm pretty sure the guy was trolling, there no way Saint Celestine is going to be 120 points and the other characters are going to be below 100 points.


----------



## mahavira

WallWeasels said:


> Because increasing the cost of the exorcist implies it needed a higher cost to compensate for its power (didn't). Sure changing a tank from 135 to 140 might not change much, but it implies a lot of the image of the authors intents. While changing a model from 11 to 12 points does impact the game when you need a minimum of 20. One might say that "veterans made the untis cost 125 to begin with" and this is true...but not hugely important because the "points per model" in 5th edition standard punishes (or emphasizes) making units larger in price. This means for every sister above 10, you are punished 1 point per model more for little reason other than "cruddace wrote it". If anything you should encourage (given the lack of use of 11+ squads already) the use of larger squads...not discourage it.
> It, as a sign of development, is a pretty bad idea.
> 
> Sadly we wont hear much more from the frenchies until tomorrow...given that it is around 3am there


Perhaps they'll get the rest of the point costs to us so the army as a whole can be judged - if the Rhino goes down to 40, for example (35 base +5 for inv save) mech lists actually save points. If Seraphim and repentia become a lot cheaper, the extra cost of a large unit of regular sisters becomes easier to bear.

If the exorcist went up in price, it's probably a) because of the save and b) to make other HS choices better by comparison. Seriously, how often did you see an army without at least 2 of the HS slots being exorcists?


----------



## rasolyo

My guess is that Repentia will be able to embark on vehicles, but not have dedicated transports. Still not a reason to take them, though.

And with scouting Dominions in a transport, why take Seraphim?

I don't see the concept for the army changing much. You are still going to take the same number of units, give or take a squad or two. The glaring omission being the lack of 3++. They didn't really do anything to compensate for that. And we really need the extra bodies now that we're not as hardy.


----------



## Tyrs13

I had something written but in the end ... troll troll booo no rules.


----------



## WallWeasels

mahavira said:


> Perhaps they'll get the rest of the point costs to us so the army as a whole can be judged - if the Rhino goes down to 40, for example (35 base +5 for inv save) mech lists actually save points. If Seraphim and repentia become a lot cheaper, the extra cost of a large unit of regular sisters becomes easier to bear.
> 
> If the exorcist went up in price, it's probably a) because of the save and b) to make other HS choices better by comparison. Seriously, how often did you see an army without at least 2 of the HS slots being exorcists?


and that isn't the fault of the exorcist and more the fault of those units in question. Namely penitents costing 120 each (well the first costs 120 due to the 40 point priest) and being as survivable as a grot in an open field...and retributors provide absolutely nothing to the army that you can't already do...while the exorcist is a decently costing tank with 13 front and the only weapon above 36 inch range (and you wont take any 36ers anyway).


----------



## Synack

some point cost up on BOK rumours group, but I can't access from work, could someone repost.


----------



## WallWeasels

to repost from BoKs hub thingy



pathtyphon said:


> Some little point teasers from the Sisters Second White Dwarf.
> Regular Sisters 12 pts each
> Cannoness 75 pts base
> Coffessor 55pts base
> St. Celestine 175 pts
> Repentia 90 pts 4 + 1 Mistress
> Celestian & Sheraphim 15 pts each
> Retributer 85pts for max heavy bolters
> that is all I got for now. enjoy


Thanks for pointing that out Synack...I swore I checked that like 2-3 hours ago :x


----------



## Sworn Radical

With the new points costs and the '_loss_' of Inquisition units and Zealots both, my army will most likely see their points value halved, lol.
Guess it'll be roughly 1.200 now instead of 2.100 ... :angry:

Ah well, maybe this will finally be the reason for me to focus more on my Dark Eldar or to totally switch to WHFB for good. Or I'm simply going to start an army of _Matt Knights _and melt down my sisters in one unholy offering to the chaos gods. That way I'd still be able to use the Inquisition Henchmen, plus there's some old RT Grey Knights somewhere in my cellar ... :laugh:  :headbutt:


----------



## [email protected]

Back in the rumors list somewhere, they had a remark about Celestine equating in points to a grand master, does that 175 match up?

J


----------



## Katie Drake

[email protected] said:


> Back in the rumors list somewhere, they had a remark about Celestine equating in points to a grand master, does that 175 match up?
> 
> J


Yup, that's correct.


----------



## Synack

I could deal with the point increase if the min squad size is dropped to 5 for immo spam.
Also, I want do see decent upgrades, so I'm still not gonna rage... yet.


----------



## [email protected]

Well, then I'm inclined to believe the post, thanks for squashing my last pearl of hope. :biggrin:

So we're looking at ~155 points for a basic squad of 10 in their ride? I can't say I'm impressed, but is there a way to make it play well? If I read it right, and to be fair, I might not be, it looks like its running about 3/4 the cost of a marine squad with rhino. Are the sisters really that good? The more I think about it, the more I think they might be, being basically as good at shooting, lousier in the assault, but getting a freebie 6++, plus occassional extra hits.

J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> Well, then I'm inclined to believe the post, thanks for squashing my last pearl of hope. :biggrin:
> 
> So we're looking at ~155 points for a basic squad of 10 in their ride? I can't say I'm impressed, but is there a way to make it play well? If I read it right, and to be fair, I might not be, it looks like its running about 3/4 the cost of a marine squad with rhino. Are the sisters really that good? The more I think about it, the more I think they might be, being basically as good at shooting, lousier in the assault, but getting a freebie 6++, plus occassional extra hits.
> 
> J


Well that's honestly not too bad then. I'll still have more room in my lists for more "toys" thanks to an overall points reduction. I'm rather looking forward to trying the new stuff and seeing how it goes.

I saw some comments on Warseer regarding VSS but they aren't listed in the bestiary so I'm a bit doubtful on them existing as an upgrade.

Anyone know if anyone has anything to say about the wargear yet?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Blessed ammo - does not exist in the White Dwarf Codex (WDC) Inferno bolts come as standard with immolator Twinlinked heavy bolter weapon choice and allow the heavy bolter to reroll wounds
Laud Hailer - When any sister of battle unit within 12 inches of the laud hailer successfully get off an act of faith you roll a d6, on a six you immediately get 1 additional faith point. As far as I can see laud hailers can only be taken by the Sororitas command squad Dialogus
Sarissas - no longer exists.

There are only 18 pieces of gear total for the army - this includes Dozer Blade, EA, Hunter killer missile, Storm bolter and Search light upgrades for vehicles.

Question - whether there are special units that give an additional Troops option (similar to Dante et al),

Answer - No there are not. You do need to a generic confessor or Kyrinov or Uriah to unlock Battle conclave, but there is no unit or character that allows the unlocking or recatergorising of other units.

On a side note Battle conclaives are unit size 3-10 all members cost the same amount as each other (think old school dominion melta gun) and the Arco flagilent got a strenght bost to 5 ( thats from last month when he was only strength 4.

Sororitas Command Squads are maximum size 5

The Simulacrum Imperialis, alows you to reroll failed act of faith tests


----------



## Zion

Ooo, thanks!



MadCowCrazy said:


> Blessed ammo - does not exist in the White Dwarf Codex (WDC) Inferno bolts come as standard with immolator Twinlinked heavy bolter weapon choice and allow the heavy bolter to reroll wounds


I like that. It makes the HB Immolator a very nice option. Sadly both of my Immolators are made with the Heavy Flamer. I made them back before the Heavy Bolter was a good option.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Laud Hailer - When any sister of battle unit within 12 inches of the laud hailer successfully get off an act of faith you roll a d6, on a six you immediately get 1 additional faith point. As far as I can see laud hailers can only be taken by the Sororitas command squad Dialogus


Ooo that's nice. I wonder if the Laud Hailers will still be an option for the vehicles.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Sarissas - no longer exists.


Eh, they weren't really a great option since only the HQs could get them and there were better options.. I was hoping they'd be an upgrade though.



MadCowCrazy said:


> There are only 18 pieces of gear total for the army - this includes Dozer Blade, EA, Hunter killer missile, Storm bolter and Search light upgrades for vehicles.


Wait....Search Lights are still separate upgrades? I thought those were standard for Imperial vehicles. :/




MadCowCrazy said:


> Question - whether there are special units that give an additional Troops option (similar to Dante et al),
> 
> Answer - No there are not. You do need to a generic confessor or Kyrinov or Uriah to unlock Battle conclave, but there is no unit or character that allows the unlocking or recatergorising of other units.


Not really surprised to be honest.



MadCowCrazy said:


> On a side note Battle conclaives are unit size 3-10 all members cost the same amount as each other (think old school dominion melta gun) and the Arco flagilent got a strenght bost to 5 ( thats from last month when he was only strength 4.


While I'm not really sure I'll be running those guys but I like the upgraded strength anyways. Though that means we may see other last minute changes too I guess.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Sororitas Command Squads are maximum size 5


Well that sucks. I'd rather liked the possibility of being able to run them 10 deep to give me some extra survivability. GW instituted mini-death stars instead I guess.



MadCowCrazy said:


> The Simulacrum Imperialis, allows you to reroll failed act of faith tests


Okay, with a possibility of a 2+ but more likely a 3 or 4+ in most situations that'll help a lot. I approve of this a lot.

Any sign of scans yet MadCowCrazy?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Any sign of scans yet MadCowCrazy?


Still searching, but I'd like to remind everyone that posting the actual scan pictures is against the rules. Links to where they can be found should be ok though.

If anyone finds anything please send me a pm

"Blessed banner - unit within 12 rerolls failed moral and pinning tests, while bearer is alive unit counts as having scoured one extra wound in combat.

Chain sword - NC
Churgeons tools - FNP to unit
Combi Weps - NC
Condemnor Boltgun - sounds cool , is actually just the bolter stake crosbow combi weap from C:WH S5 Assault 1
Evicerator NC
Frag grenades NC
Nural whip - Strenght 8 but tests against Ld not T - still acts as a power wep
Rosarius - NC but at least we get to use it
Storm shield - NC 3+ invuln no 2 hand wep bonus

In the battle report Cruddace's dominions squad is pictured as 5 Dominions, four with flamers and a vss with PP and chainsword - The list was not actually put up as a part of the battle report only the army group shot and the photos throughout the battle report so it may be a case of the guys who set the photos up just got it wrong, maybe there were only 2 flamers in his list while the photographers took photos of 4 - but if this is a stuff up - it is the writter of the list breaking his own nerf - if the writter cant get his army selection right what hope the rest of us."


----------



## rasolyo

75 base for a canoness? what in holy hell could she be having to increase her cost by 30?

Also, note the irony: the boost in the Simulacrum Imperialis compared to the nerfing of acts of faith.


----------



## Zion

From Warseer (starting here)



n4345444 said:


> Cannoness went up in cost and now cannot take a junp pack - profound sadness. Eviserator cost NC. Cannoness can get chainsword, Storm bolter, PSword, Combi wep, Plaspistol, Inferno Pistol, Eviserator, rosaruis, and melta bombs - that is an exaustive list. And no she cannot take a storm shield.
> 
> There is also a preacher model on the SoB webstore with a plasma gun, do we get that too? - Confessors can still get Plas gun , shot gun bolt gun, Storm Bolter, combi wep, PSword - they come with Chainsword and las pistol as standard
> 
> Confessor and Battle conclave count as a single HQ choice





n4345444 said:


> Good... well not bad news
> 
> Battle conclaves can take either rhinos or immolators and multimelta now are quite reasonable (thing the old CWH BSister Squad melta cost reasonable)
> 
> Repentia can not take dedicated transports but it looks like you can buy a transport seperate and then load them into it during the first turn - provided that they dont run screaming at an enemy that they can see - Im looking at you ork deth coptas


 SOURCE



n4345444 said:


> Immolator cost is NC


 SOURCE



n4345444 said:


> No Blessed Weapons at all. Heavy Flamer is now double the cost of a MultiMelta


 SOURCE



n4345444 said:


> Executioner NC, no cloak, same high cost of the Heavy flamer is across the board for bss,cs,ds and rs. All of the above except ds can take mm and hb


 SOURCE (I think they mean Exorcist)



n4345444 said:


> Squads have to be purchased with the Sister superior, They have a base cost for 4 sister and a SSuperior with an option to purchase more sisters for x amount. THe exception is the BSS which come with 9 BS and 1 SS with an option to buy an additional 10 sisters. They cost the same as a CWH heavy flamer with the cost of the first 10 models being ten heavy flamers and a storm bolter in the CWH costs.
> 
> Light of the Emperor is BSS only


 SOURCE

That's all I could get through for now. Work prevents me from staying on Warseer and continually refreshing for more.


----------



## rasolyo

So it isn't even 120 points for a Battle Sister squad.

It's a hundred and thirty.
And say goodbye to immolator spam.

Goddamn.

We don't even have flamey death to call our own anymore.
AND WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY MAKE MULTI-MELTAS CHEAPER. YOU STILL DON'T HAVE A REASON FOR TAKING THEM.


----------



## hells

welllll, i may shelve my sisters after this tournement, wait on the tau dex, see how they look and might roll into them, the amoury looks horrible and i honestly expect to get the wooden spoon for most losses with the new setup

/sigh


----------



## rasolyo

Before Zion's post I was still editing a possible list using the rumored points.

Now I guess it's all just kinda pointless.


----------



## Lordgimpet

Hi There, long time lurker first time poster here. While I have been following this thread and many others on a simallar topic on other forums. I must say here is a much calmer place despite the mixed views, most forums on sisters remind me of that youtube vid of the guy crying "leave Brittney alone", least its not so bad here.

As a last Hoorah for the WH dex I used them in a tournament on the weekend, did well and event smashed a GK, Ordo Xenos/Crowe purifier spam list. What I did notice was I only used 3 faith for the whole battle, in the last turns where I boosted the Cannoness to solo kill a squad. That said I am kinda looking forward to this WD release, this became cemented in my mind as I played the games. actually wishing i had that 6+ on the tanks or this and that.

I don't see the 12pts an issue either, When you begin to add things up it ends up cheaper, even just comparing 9bss and 1 ss for a total of 120~125 is cheaper than the same ting in the WH dex once you add the cost for frags and krak, bolt pistols are a bonus. 35 pt rinos over 50 (54 if counting smoke and SL)

175 for St Celestine is pure win Imho, so annoyed at the 201 cost why the 1 point made lists a pain. Repentia are back on my painting table, Though it does not mention it I assume they still wont be able to at least buy transports and I hope they fix the Arcos. Anyhow I have rambled on enough I'm sure there will be scans soon.


----------



## andrewm9

The problem comes in for battle Sister Sqauds when we have to pay for the other options like the rumors are telling us. Meltagun for 5 to 10 points and a heavy flamer for 20 points and a Rhino. for 35 points. Thats 190 points. Thats only 15 points less than a SM Tactical sqaud with a flamer and missile launcher and a Rhino. That same sqaud has +1 WS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 I, ATSKNF, and the to combat sqaud for 15 more points. I sure hope that those rumors are wrong becuase Sisters used to be ~ 200 points with options (5 poitns less) now they are only slightly less than before. Thats not really much of an improvement for 5th edition. Sisters' players take another on the chin. Yay!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The hell do they mean with NC?


----------



## Synack

Not/Nothing Changed was the first thing that came to mind


----------



## Suijin

rasolyo said:


> My guess is that Repentia will be able to embark on vehicles, but not have dedicated transports. Still not a reason to take them, though.
> 
> And *with scouting Dominions in a transport*, why take Seraphim?
> 
> I don't see the concept for the army changing much. You are still going to take the same number of units, give or take a squad or two. The glaring omission being the lack of 3++. They didn't really do anything to compensate for that. And we really need the extra bodies now that we're not as hardy.


I don't have all the rules mastered, but I thought I read somewhere that units with scout don't make a dedicated transport scout, the transport needs to already have that property.


----------



## Winterous

Suijin said:


> I don't have all the rules mastered, but I thought I read somewhere that units with scout don't make a dedicated transport scout, the transport needs to already have that property.


If someone said that, they were wrong.
A unit that has Scouts which is mounted in a Dedicated Transport that they own, at the start of the game, confers the rule to the Transport.


----------



## WallWeasels

So warseer has had a big "question and answer" thing going on and this is what I took from it:


----------



## Suijin

Winterous said:


> If someone said that, they were wrong.
> A unit that has Scouts which is mounted in a Dedicated Transport that they own, at the start of the game, confers the rule to the Transport.


Ah I found out where I thought it came from: The GW 40K rules FAQ page 6, "_
Q: Does a unit with the​​​​​​​​​*Scout *special rule pass it on to
any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)​
_A: No."

pg 76 does say it does confer to dedicated transports. Is it even possible to have a unit in a transport that is not dedicated to it at the time when deploying so that the scout rule would ever even possibly apply???

Maybe only an Independant Character joined to a unit?


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> Before Zion's post I was still editing a possible list using the rumored points.
> 
> Now I guess it's all just kinda pointless.


Sorry about that. I was just trying to share the info with those who don't want to drudge through Warseer's many (and I do mean MANY) posts complaining about how Sisters are ruined forever (seriously, nearly 90% of the posts I saw where filled with nerd-rage).


----------



## WallWeasels

Um yes you can in the case of a bought transport like a land raider (as a heavy slot). They can deploy inside of the vehicle and thus might be able to scout. However that is now stated to be a big "no".

edit: At least they have reason to rage about it. You can tell this was written during Cruddaces bathroom breaks.


----------



## Zion

BoLS just put up a list of the products that are slated to hit next month.

No prizes for guessing what's not on the list.


----------



## rasolyo

Zion said:


> Sorry about that. I was just trying to share the info with those who don't want to drudge through Warseer's many (and I do mean MANY) posts complaining about how Sisters are ruined forever (seriously, nearly 90% of the posts I saw where filled with nerd-rage).


Didn't mean it to come off like that. Thank you for the effort of sifting through all that, even if the news isn't all that good.


----------



## Suijin

Yeah thanks for the work, I certainly wouldn't like to sort through all that.

Mostly I don't think the thing as a whole is that bad. The biggest change I would like to see is to be able to use faith in the opponents turn also.

For some reason I bought another 24 repentia + 2 mistresses, so I have 33 + 3 now, heh. I do like those models so overall I'm OK with having them. Gonna have to bubblewrap them with crusaders or a vechicle or something though, otherwise they are just going to die. All that foot slogging to get anywhere for the killing is going to hurt too.


----------



## Shandathe

Some thoughts, and correcting a few things now that I have the WD in question: 

Wargear is interesting in that every squad that has access to a weapon buys it at the same price in points. Consistency is nice I suppose, but still... Heavy Bolters and Flamers are 5 points, Storm Bolters 3, Meltaguns and Multi-Meltas are 10, Heavy Flamers are sold at 20. Every Sister Superior/leadertype in the army that isn't Celestine can take Meltabombs at 5 points, which is nice.

:hq: 

Celestine is not 175 but 115, which makes her the only female HQ choice worth her points.

Canoness is 65 sans upgrades, and as noted can't take the Jump Pack anymore... Which makes her only use the addition of the Command Squad she can bring along (not as Retinue, that's important!).

Speaking of those Command Squads, it has the Sister Dialogus who is your only way of getting some more Faith Points into a turn. Her Laud Hailer gives you an additional faith point if a squad within 12" successfully makes an Act of Faith... and you roll a 6. Gee. That's certainly worth it.  On a brighter side, the 3 Celestians in there can all bring a weapon of your choice, and the Hospitaller will keep them alive with FNP. At a 115 points plus upgrades, I still don't think it's worth it.

:elites:

Celestians: I can't for the life of me figure out why they'd be worth 15 points a model with 90 for the Squad (for reference: Tactical Space Marines are only 1 point/model more). Curious fact: Apparently having an extra melee attack is expensive, no matter the fact that you don't want to be in melee.

Repentia... Sigh. 17 points a model, 90 for a squad of four plus a Mistress that actually got nerfed. Instead of striking at +1 Init, Neural Whips are now Power Weapons that strike (against non-vehicle units) at Strength 8 against Leadership. I'm sure it'll be ever so useful because we all know people who wear heavy armour tend to be sucky in that department... Oh wait.

:troops: 

Basic Battle Sister Squad with no upgrades isn't 130, is 125 (So apparently the Sister Superior is only 5 points more than a basic Sister), with the same numbers possible as before. 

:fa:

Seraphim, a bit of light in a WDex of darkness. 80 points for the initial 5 and 15/model more. Upgrades are pricey at +20 for hand flamers and +30 for inferno pistols, but overall they're both stronger and cheaper. Go figure.

Dominions went up to 13 points, 70 for the initial squad of 5. 

:hs:

Retributors weigh in at 65 points for the initial squad, with 12 for each ablative wound. 

Exorcists are the same as they ever were, but with free Smoke (which you'll never use anyway as firing the main gun is far too much fun).

Penitent Engine went up to 85... dammit. 

Very much missing in the HS section is the Immolator, which has been demoted to purely being a dedicated transport... and losing functionality there as it no longer has the fire point nor the ability to fire the flamer while moving. Fortunately, it makes up for that somewhat by letting you exchange the flamers for HBs that re-roll wounds for free. The Multi-melta would add 15 points to the initial 65 but Immolators are far less worth taking overall now.

Curiously, we still have to pay 1 point/searchlight... Probably in a nod to the fact that all vehicles now have a 6+ Invulnerable save. Sounds like a good deal to me.


----------



## Necrosis

If you look at blood angel codex and the grey knight ones, they also have to pay for search lights to.

Are eviscerators 15 points or 25?


----------



## andrewm9

Sadly though Blood Angels pay 10 points less for their Razorbacks with twin linked heavy flamers and they are fast. What was Ward or Cruddace smoking? Heck I'd probbaly pay the larger cost if it was fast. Immolators are way overpriced for what they do now.


----------



## Revarien

This might be wishful thinking, but is there a 'fire selector' wargear option for the retributioners to split fire? I'm thinking a heap of 4-5 heavy bolters with rending could be in the realm of goofy, but if I were to take Multimelta, I'd want them to be able to split fire.


----------



## WallWeasels

Revarien said:


> This might be wishful thinking, but is there a 'fire selector' wargear option for the retributioners to split fire? I'm thinking a heap of 4-5 heavy bolters with rending could be in the realm of goofy, but if I were to take Multimelta, I'd want them to be able to split fire.


No, not at all. They are also capped at 4 weapons. This list, more or less, confirms that Sisters cannot have any fancy space marine things :laugh:


----------



## Revarien

WallWeasels said:


> No, not at all. They are also capped at 4 weapons. This list, more or less, confirms that Sisters cannot have any fancy space marine things :laugh:


Ew,... mmm that's all sorts of terrible. What're the points costs in that group?

Also points on priests and loadouts possible? >.> I'm thinking a 20 sister blob with Uriah Jacobus and a priest may very well own face...


----------



## WallWeasels

Not to sure on weapon options really or their costs. 
But a 20 sister blob? Thats a base cost of 245 points without weapon options...and Jacobus is around 100 from what i have heard. So around 350~375 for a unti that can't really...do much


----------



## Revarien

60+ attacks on the charge (getting +1 for each model in the squad due to Uriah), with 3+, FNP, 6++ (and 2 4++ saves in there with the priest and Uriah), being able to reroll hits (due to the priest), is stubborn and can regroup easily... I'd say that's pretty damned gross for 350 ish. >.>


----------



## TheSpore

I pass no judgment until I actually get to see the dex itself 

*AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT*


----------



## Shandathe

Necrosis, Eviscerators are 25. Only available on Canoness, Ecclesiarchy Confessor, Ecclesiarchy Preacher and Seraphim Superior.


----------



## TheSpore

Im rully worried about point costs, I can play with the points consistantly and do all kinds of weird things with the army. My concern is well they perform, even then I'm not that worried because I know if I can win with a daemon army I'nm sure I turn the old ladies into winners as well.


----------



## Suijin

[


Revarien said:


> 60+ attacks on the charge (getting +1 for each model in the squad due to Uriah), with 3+, FNP, 6++ (and 2 4++ saves in there with the priest and Uriah), being able to reroll hits (due to the priest), is stubborn and can regroup easily... I'd say that's pretty damned gross for 350 ish. >.>


I don't know. For one you aren't hardly ever going to get the full 60+ attacks as you will almost always go last, unless the enemy only has powerfists and thunder hammers.

Since assault winning is determined by how many models you lose, having cheap, so-so large units aren't helping you. I agree though that the 3+, 6++ FNP might be enough to enable you to live to strike back.


----------



## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> Necrosis, Eviscerators are 25. Only available on Canoness, Ecclesiarchy Confessor, Ecclesiarchy Preacher and Seraphim Superior.


Another failure from the codex especially since Guard priests only pay 15 for theirs. The only one that can hide in a unit is the Seraphim Superior. So basically if a walker hits a Sisters' unit they are screwed unless they are fortunate enough to have one of the few models with an eviscerator Melta bombs and krak grenades don't really cut unless you get lucky. Against SM dreads you need 2 6's in a row from a single attack to make a difference at all with krak grenades. Melta bombs still need the 6 to hit as well. As upgrades go melta bombs are very situational.


----------



## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> Another failure from the codex especially since Guard priests only pay 15 for theirs. The only one that can hide in a unit is the Seraphim Superior. So basically if a walker hits a Sisters' unit they are screwed unless they are fortunate enough to have one of the few models with an eviscerator Melta bombs and krak grenades don't really cut unless you get lucky. Against SM dreads you need 2 6's in a row from a single attack to make a difference at all with krak grenades. Melta bombs still need the 6 to hit as well. As upgrades go melta bombs are very situational.


So for tl;dr: Avoid close combat with walkers and shoot them instead.


----------



## Necrosis

andrewm9 said:


> Another failure from the codex especially since Guard priests only pay 15 for theirs. The only one that can hide in a unit is the Seraphim Superior. So basically if a walker hits a Sisters' unit they are screwed unless they are fortunate enough to have one of the few models with an eviscerator Melta bombs and krak grenades don't really cut unless you get lucky. Against SM dreads you need 2 6's in a row from a single attack to make a difference at all with krak grenades. Melta bombs still need the 6 to hit as well. As upgrades go melta bombs are very situational.


I was just about to say that.

Fail Codex is Fail. They should put this codex on failblog.


----------



## andrewm9

Zion said:


> So for tl;dr: Avoid close combat with walkers and shoot them instead.


Sure becuase that is always possible, because meltaguns never miss or fail to do appreciable damage. This is doubly true of monstrous creatures who might have a toughness of 6 and 6 wounds. They will shred sisters who can't really fight back against them since most of them will ignore 2/3 of all wounds done to them which need a 6 to wound since melta bombs and grenades can't be used.

I sure hope 6th edition or a new codex comes along and saves this codex becuase it looks like Sisters will be sucking for about a year or more.


----------



## hells

zion, just seen your sig and it made me remeber the people complaining 3k of sisters will be worth 2k, well good news is thier 3k is now prob 4k  /sarcasm


----------



## SGMAlice

Hands up all those still using 3rd Ed. Until 6th...

SGMAlice


----------



## Kraban

And what do you think about replacing old Dominion squad with m-meltas armed command squad?


----------



## WallWeasels

SGMAlice said:


> Hands up all those still using 3rd Ed. Until 6th...
> 
> SGMAlice


*raises hand*

I think this'll spark me to continue working on my fandex :x


----------



## SilverTabby

_Please feel free to moderate this post if I've put numbers in that I shouldn't_

I have the White Dwarf in my hand (no access to a scanner though. Sorry.), and briefly perused it before dinner. My heart fell as I saw what appeared to be price hikes across all the major units I use. 

Emphasis on _appeared_. I thought about it as I ate, then as I put the kids to bed, then sat down with pen and paper and did some sums. 

End result? Well, let's put this in hard figures...

*C:WH*
10 Battle Sisters, with Sister Superior and no upgrades: 124. With grenades: 154
20 Battles Sisters: 234 / 294
Rhino: 50

*New Dex*
10 Battle Sisters, Superior included, no upgrades: 125 
20 Battle Sisters: 245
Rhino: 35

End result? Better armed Sisters with a cheaper ride. They are only more expensive if you take a unit of 20, and with the extra toys are still cheaper than the old ones (albeit you _have _to take the toys, which I never did. And they can shoot before making a charge, if they have to. Plus their weapon options are better - hooray for Heavy Weapons!

*Result:* Win for the new dex at base level.

The result was very similar for Celestians: They are slightly more expensive than before, but cheaper than if you had armed them with all the toys they have now. And the bolt pistols will prove very useful as the ability to shoot before making that forced-into-it charge will make a big difference. 

Repentia were cheaper across the board, and have better rules and new toys like grenades. Differences are no 0-1, but also units are limited to 10 in size. 

Seraphim: massive price drop, but upgrades hurt. But not as much as you'd think: Even with 2 inferno pistol girls, a unit of 10 is still cheaper than an old unit of 10 without a Superior or upgrades. 

I haven't looked at the Dominions in detail yet, but I'd imagine they will similarly balance out.

I was most sad at the increase in the cost (and same Force Organisation location) of Penitent Engines. But the possibility of 16 attacks apiece on the charge means I'll still take them, if only to see my opponents expressions on the day when I get that maxed-out roll and bring the pain...

I haven't looked into the HQs in detail yet. Again, I'd imagine that when looked into in number-crunching detail they will balance out against their older counterparts in a similar fashion. 

So, with this in mind, and the fact that the options are all still there for me to field my army as it is (barring the lack of Book of St Lucius) wargear-wise, I feel that with a little bit of readjusting I will end up quite happy with this WDDex, and may even branch out into new units to add in, until we get our full Codex.


----------



## andrewm9

SilverTabby said:


> End result? Well, let's put this in hard figures...
> 
> *C:WH*
> 10 Battle Sisters, with Sister Superior and no upgrades: 124. With grenades: 154
> 20 Battles Sisters: 234 / 294
> Rhino: 50
> 
> *New Dex*
> 10 Battle Sisters, Superior included, no upgrades: 125
> 20 Battle Sisters: 245
> Rhino: 35
> 
> End result? Better armed Sisters with a cheaper ride. They are only more expensive if you take a unit of 20, and with the extra toys are still cheaper than the old ones (albeit you _have _to take the toys, which I never did. And they can shoot before making a charge, if they have to. Plus their weapon options are better - hooray for Heavy Weapons!


Are you really going to take Sisters with no upgrades? Rumor has that a meltagun/heavy flamer will add 30 points to that cost plus the Rhino is anotehr 35. Thst 190 right? A tactical sqaud is 15 points more than that with its weapons and a Rhino.


----------



## Kraban

SilverTabby said:


> _
> Better armed Sisters with a cheaper ride.
> _


_

Do you really used grenade options for you squads in older codex? In adition they lost partially useful Eviscerator and gained almost useless due to "heavy" type heavy flamer alternatives.



SilverTabby said:





The result was very similar for Celestians: They are slightly more expensive than before, but cheaper than if you had armed them with all the toys they have now. And the bolt pistols will prove very useful as the ability to shoot before making that forced-into-it charge will make a big difference.

Seraphim: massive price drop, but upgrades hurt. But not as much as you'd think: Even with 2 inferno pistol girls, a unit of 10 is still cheaper than an old unit of 10 without a Superior or upgrades. 



Click to expand...



Well, here you may be right, Celestians and Seraphims squads look nice now.



SilverTabby said:





I haven't looked at the Dominions in detail yet, but I'd imagine they will similarly balance out.



Click to expand...



Dominion squads are now forced to take 2 special weapons for 5 models and it doesn't look very nice.

In edition Canoness lost most of wargear opions and Immo is now almost useless.

Oh, and don't forget that we lost old AoF!_


----------



## Suijin

Another thing not included in just looking at old vs new cost is the loss of the 3++ save and no more +2 I to go first in assault.


----------



## hells

SilverTabby said:


> *C:WH*
> 10 Battle Sisters, with Sister Superior and no upgrades: 124. With grenades: 154
> 20 Battles Sisters: 234 / 294
> Rhino: 50
> 
> *New Dex*
> 10 Battle Sisters, Superior included, no upgrades: 125
> 20 Battle Sisters: 245
> Rhino: 35
> 
> End result? Better armed Sisters with a cheaper ride. They are only more expensive if you take a unit of 20, and with the extra toys are still cheaper than the old ones (albeit you _have _to take the toys, which I never did. And they can shoot before making a charge, if they have to. Plus their weapon options are better - hooray for Heavy Weapons!
> 
> *Result:* Win for the new dex at base level.


i dont really agree, sure our rhinos cheaper, but it should of been that way for ages, secondly the squads cost the same as before bassicly but are weaker, yes we have frag grenades (never used them cause i never charged) we have bolt pistols (will probably never use them because charging with battle sisters is so bad on so many levels unless the enemy can outshoot you, but chances are they can out do you in cc anyway)

our faith was nerfed from a watered down rending to reroll ones and a semi decent 6++, so in short, we were given upgrades that we wouldnt take if we had the choice, then got nerfed in our shooting ability and we now cost more /sigh it doesnt sound like its a fair trade, an old sisters squad could out do the new one i bet, might even go do some numbers to see which one can do more damage


----------



## Shandathe

andrewm9, I did post wargear point costs before. Storm Bolter 3, Flamer or Heavy Bolter 5, Multi-Melta or Meltagun 10, Heavy Flamer 20 points. Battle Sister Squad still effectively has 'one special weapon, one heavy weapon or a second special' but it's more verbose 

The problem is the loss of staying power (No more book, no more Spirit of the Martyr), flexibility (with old Divine Guindance, ANY unit was potentially a danger) and wargear options. Especially the Canoness is screwed compared to how she was before (she's armed like any other Sister at her base 65(!) points, and may only take a different weapon loadout, a Rosarius and Melta Bombs). If I ever use this WDex I strongly suspect I'll end up fielding Celestine as my HQ of choice and leave the Canonesses at home.

Meanwhile, I'll raise my hand for SGMAlice.


----------



## Suijin

On the positive side about penitent engines:
Old
1 heavy flamer
D6 base attacks for 2 DCCW
need priest

New
2 heavy flamers
D6+1 base attacks for 2 DCCW
extra attacks for unsaved wounds
6++ save

To get the rerolls on unsaved wounds compares loosely with the Furiso Dreadnought with blood talons, but those are at S6 instead of the Penitent Engine's S10. Penitent is also cheaper and has lower armor though (although they have 6++ save now), heh.

Just saying it's not all bad.

Can they still be taken as a squadron?


----------



## Kraban

SGMAlice said:


> Hands up all those still using 3rd Ed. Until 6th...
> 
> SGMAlice


Well, I'm really depressed with new codex, but still I'm tied of the old one.

Meanwhile, I think that they print this "update" only to stop "alliance" practice, not to make us happier.


----------



## Suijin

Any wargear provide any protection from psykers?

And anything about the relics carried by the command squad?


----------



## SilverTabby

andrewm9 said:


> Are you really going to take Sisters with no upgrades? Rumor has that a meltagun/heavy flamer will add 30 points to that cost plus the Rhino is anotehr 35. Thst 190 right? A tactical sqaud is 15 points more than that with its weapons and a Rhino.


I'm not comparing Sisters to Marines, I'm comparing them to Sisters. 

The base comparisons I posted were bare basics vs bare basics. Let's do the comparison you wanted, vs old Sisters rather than Marines.

10 C:WH Sisters, with Meltagun and Heavy Flamer, and Rhino: 196pts
10 WD Sisters, with meltagun and Heavy Flamer, and Rhino: 190pts

Result? Cheaper, with more toys and still with additional rules in the form of 6++ and AoF. 

Yes, the AoF have been changed, but as I've said all the way through this thread, that doesn't bother me as I've always played with them as a nice added bonus, not something that makes or breaks my force. When I win, it tends to be with the army, not the special rules.


----------



## Kraban

Oh, almost forgot. Do we still have Brazier of Holy Fire for our superiors?


----------



## Sworn Radical

Any info yet if they'll be re-releasing any of the old metals in Failcast ? _*snickers*_

Can someone enlighten us about the wargear options for the '_generic_' confessor maybe ?


----------



## Grogbart

This is just sad!

Anyone interested in creating a joint Fandex?


----------



## Suijin

I never thought the base sisters squads were that great before, and I view the new codex as nerfing them.

Nerfed:
Base sisters
Canoness (more expensive and less options)

Buffed:
Penitent Engines (be good if you can get them anywhere alive)
St. Celestine (mostly due to cheaper)


I'm undecided on others till I have the next WD and think more on it, but I don't think it is the end of the world. I also don't think they did us any favors rules-wise, and we certainly won't be FotM. Maybe they did us a favor after all???


----------



## Shandathe

Suijin, yes, can include two additional Penitent Engines.

Kraban, no more Braziers. Some Combi-weapons, though.


----------



## Kraban

SilverTabby said:


> I'm not comparing Sisters to Marines, I'm comparing them to Sisters.
> 
> The base comparisons I posted were bare basics vs bare basics. Let's do the comparison you wanted, vs old Sisters rather than Marines.
> 
> 10 C:WH Sisters, with Meltagun and Heavy Flamer, and Rhino: 196pts
> 10 WD Sisters, with meltagun and Heavy Flamer, and Rhino: 190pts
> 
> Result? Cheaper, with more toys and still with additional rules in the form of 6++ and AoF.
> 
> Yes, the AoF have been changed, but as I've said all the way through this thread, that doesn't bother me as I've always played with them as a nice added bonus, not something that makes or breaks my force. When I win, it tends to be with the army, not the special rules.


Well, you may be right. Still I'm completely upset with new Canoness and Immo. St Celestine is good, but I hate when somebody pushes my hand.


----------



## SilverTabby

*Laud Hailer:* Successfully using faith within 12" gives a 1/6 chance of getting another Faith Point.
*Hospitalier:* FnP

No Braziers, but the option for Combi-flamers. I never took Braziers personally, as I prefer to shoot than fight and it cost the same as a combi-flamer, but wasn't as useful.
And every Superior can take a Condemnor Boltgun - a one-use Stake-Crossbow upgrade that causes wounded psykers to suffer Perils of the Warp. 

And the Blessed Banner gives a boost to Ld, in the form of rerolls to Morale and Pinning tests (in addition to +1wound in combat). I'm fairly sure the odds of rolling two ld tests at a slightly lower ld roughly equates to one attempt at a fixed higher ld. So whilst it's not the Book, it's something at least.


----------



## Shandathe

Sworn Radical, normal Ecclesiarchy Confessor comes with Flak Armour, Laspistol, Chainsword, Frag and Krak grenades and a Rosarius (so he's got a better Invulnerable than Armour) at 75 points. Options: 
Replace laspistol and/or chainsword with 
-Shotgun, bolt pistol or boltgun 2 points
- Storm bolter 3 points
-Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta, -plasma 10 points
-Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol 15 points
-Eviscerator 25 points.
May take Plasma gun for 15 points
May take Melta Bombs for 5 points


----------



## Sworn Radical

Thanks a bunch !


----------



## Shandathe

I've made sure MCC has all the info so it should make it into the thread sooner or later. Much easier when everyone's on the same page, so to speak


----------



## Revarien

2 things, if you have the time:

What is the preacher's cost? (I saw that you had the confessor @75, but I'm wondering if the other is cheaper)

And what is the back page of the White Dwarf? Necrons?


----------



## Shandathe

Preacher's 45 points. Same base equipment, same options except he can't take a Plasma Gun. The 30 point difference is fully in his profile (might I add that I would *really* like to know why a highly-trained Seraphim can only have Initiative 3 while Joe Randomly Ordained can still act at Initiative 4?)

Back page... doesn't actually have next month on it, but a bunch of Ogres.


----------



## WallWeasels

Shandathe said:


> Preacher's 45 points. Same base equipment, same options except he can't take a Plasma Gun. The 30 point difference is fully in his profile (might I add that I would *really* like to know why a highly-trained Seraphim can only have Initiative 3 while Joe Randomly Ordained can still act at Initiative 4?)
> 
> Back page... doesn't actually have next month on it, but a bunch of Ogres.


Whats the special Condemnor Bolter do? For 15 points it better be fairly nice >_>


----------



## Necrosis

WallWeasels said:


> Whats the special Condemnor Bolter do? For 15 points it better be fairly nice >_>


S5 Ap-, Range 24, Assault 1. Psi Shock*

Psi Shock: Any pskyer suffering an unsave wound takes perils of the warp on top of any other effect.


----------



## WallWeasels

So a single piece of gear that hints towards actually hunting witchs? how fun...and totally not worth 15 points.


----------



## Shandathe

WallWeasels said:


> Whats the special Condemnor Bolter do? For 15 points it better be fairly nice >_>


Which is why it's not! It's an altered Bolter-Stake Crossbow combi-weapon. 

The Stake portion now is Assault 1 (used to be 2), S5 AP- (used to be S3 AP5) and against Psykers, on an unsaved Wound causes Perils of the Warp in addition to other effects (used to Wound on 2+, no Armour save allowed). 

So should you with a single attack manage to get a wound into a Psyker(doubtful), it's good (if that hadn't killed him already ANYWAY) but overall you're probably more likely to kill him with a Combi-Melta to the face


----------



## WallWeasels

Oh yes I gathered it was a replacement for the stake-crossbow...and its definetly worse than it used to be. Perils of the warp is a nice way to wound something...but not if it has to successfully wound the psyker in the first place. How many S5 AP- shots would it take to actually CAUSE a wound to a real psyker? Plenty  

Is it actually STILL a bolter or is it only S5 AP-? :| Man I would of probably taken a few crossbows if they were more reasonably priced too.
Well the one "new" piece of wargear we get is complete trash, how surprising.


----------



## Shandathe

It's a combi-weapon. So it's a bolter, and ONCE in the game you can fire it as a stake instead. One lousy attack, that has to get to Unsaved Wound before doing anything else, at a Psyker that potentially doesn't exist.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Hi.

I was excited for the second part of the codex next Saturday, but today after reading the thread I'm really sad. Tones of equip and options have gone, troop SoB without Divine Guidance, rhinos continue been expensive (you must to add the new cost of the Extra Armour), etc.

I can only see a poor crying Sister of Battle under the boot of a laughing Grey Knight carrying piggyback to M*tt W*rd, both with a troll face.

:cray:


----------



## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> Sure becuase that is always possible, because meltaguns never miss or fail to do appreciable damage. This is doubly true of monstrous creatures who might have a toughness of 6 and 6 wounds. They will shred sisters who can't really fight back against them since most of them will ignore 2/3 of all wounds done to them which need a 6 to wound since melta bombs and grenades can't be used.
> 
> I sure hope 6th edition or a new codex comes along and saves this codex becuase it looks like Sisters will be sucking for about a year or more.


No need to be cross about it. I'm not Cruddance. I was just offering the summary of what was said. Which coincidently echos what people tell me I should only do with Sisters (namely shoot and never assault and that somehow makes you win).

I've had more luck being the person launching the assault at times (when facing Berserkers and Death Company especially) than recieving it. But then again when you can end up taking a LOT more attacks BEING assaulted at times, well sometimes it's best to be the aggressor. It's all situational though of course.



SGMAlice said:


> Hands up all those still using 3rd Ed. Until 6th...
> 
> SGMAlice


*puts hand down* I'm a firm believer in either sucking it up or shelving it if it doesn't work. Who knows, I may find a way to make it work for me that makes them better than expected. Or I may get frustrated and paint them here and there and leave them at home until a nicer dex comes along.


----------



## LordWaffles

I love how GW streamlined sisters like they did Chaos Marines.

I feel unending joy that they like to ream your buttholes as much as they did ours, that's reassuring. We should actually not bother discussing how angry the codex makes us, and instead start going to therapy for this rape.


----------



## Suijin

So what do you take??

75 Confessor or other SC Confessor
765 9 Penitent engines
balance Battle conclaves with rhinos dedicated transport

Then you have a very assault oriented Sisters of Battle Army without a single sister in it, Yea. While probably a strangely strong force, I don't know if you could win consistently with it, the no shooting is going to hurt alot.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> So what do you take??
> 
> 75 Confessor or other SC Confessor
> 765 9 Penitent engines
> balance Battle conclaves with rhinos dedicated transport
> 
> Then you have a very assault oriented Sisters of Battle Army without a single sister in it, Yea. While probably a strangely strong force, I don't know if you could win consistently with it, the no shooting is going to hurt alot.


Now I got to say that it'd be an interesting force. I'd try it if I didn't need to essentially buy a second army just to field it.


----------



## WallWeasels

Suijin said:


> So what do you take??
> 
> 75 Confessor or other SC Confessor
> 765 9 Penitent engines
> balance Battle conclaves with rhinos dedicated transport
> 
> Then you have a very assault oriented Sisters of Battle Army without a single sister in it, Yea. While probably a strangely strong force, I don't know if you could win consistently with it, the no shooting is going to hurt alot.


Well you lack troops...so you can't even take it. Conclaves are "retinue" HQs that are only accessible through the confessors/jacobus/kyrinov, they don't make them troops.

ion: I think ultimately the point is "if you could keep the old one...would you?" rather than "are you going too use the old one". At least, that is how I take it. However with most of the fun stripped from this ruleset I can't honestly say WHY I would play sisters (other than the sake of playing sisters).

I have posed this question to others and most can't give an exceptionally put out list of "whys":
You are a redshirt (well in America its just 'store operator' now ) and you are asked to go through all the armies of 40k. You pass over each force and give some pros and cons of the army and move onto the next. What do you say for sisters? What do sisters do better than another force in the imperium? What do they do worse? How do they "fit" into the scheme? 
Because honestly...I can't think of many pros for this armylist that cannot be, more effectively or equally effectively, done by another list in the Imperium. Hate to sound like "powerplayer best army is what I play" but really it is a fairly hard sell.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So lets do a round up shall we.

Blessed Banner: 12" re-roll morale and pinning, as long as bearer is alive Command Squad counts as scoring 1 extra wound in cc for assault results.

Chirurgeon's Tools: Feel No Pain to the unit.

Condemnor Boltgun: Combi-stake crossbow. 24" S5 AP- Assault 1, Psi-shock
Psi-shock: Any psyker that takes an UNSAVED wound suffer Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

Laud Hailer: 12" bubble, any successful AoF, Roll a D6 and if result a 6 you gain 1 Faith Point.

Neural Whip: Power weapon, vs non vehicles count as S8 and roll to wound against the opponents unmodified LD instead of T.

Simulacrum Imperialis: Unit re-rolls failed AoF tests.

Vehicles
Immolator
Inferno Bolts: Re-rolls to wound


Wargear options, items listed after each other cost the same.

HQ
Canoness
Replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltun, plasma pistol or inferno pistol
Eviscerator
May take Rosarius
May take Melta bombs

For every Canoness you may take 1 Sororitas Command Squad, does not count as HQ
Only 5 member, 3 Celestians, 1 Hospitaller and 1 Dialogus
One Celestian may take either:
Simulacrum Imperials
Blessed Banner
Any Celestian may replace her boltgun with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
Can take Rhino or Immolator

Ecclesiarchy Confessor
May Replace laspistol and/or chainsword with:
Shotgun, bolt pistol or boltgun
Stormbolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Eviscerator
May take plasma gun
May take melta bombs

For every Confessor, Confessor Kyrinov or Uriah Jacobus you may include 1 Battle Conclave.
3-10 models in any combination, does not count as HQ
Same costs are GK ones
Can take Immolator or Rhino

Elite
Ecclesiarchy Preacher
0-5 choice, does not use up FOC slot but are treated as Elite.
Each Preacher may replace laspistol and/or chainsword with:
Shotgun, bolt pistol or boltgun
Storm bolter
Power sword, combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Eviscerator
May take melta bombs

Celestian Squad
4 Celestians and 1 Superior, can include up to 5 additional Celestians
One may replace boltgun with:
Stormbolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
One may replace her boltgun with:
Stormbolter
Flamer
Meltagun
One may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace her boltgun and/or boltpistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword, or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Sisters Repentia
4 Repentia and Mistress, may include up to 5 additional Repentia
Mistress may take melta bombs

Troops
Battle Sister Squad
9 Sisters and Superior, may include up to ten additional Sisters.
One Sister may replace her boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Heavy bolter or flamer
Multi-melta or meltagun
Heavy flamer
One Sister may replace her boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Flamer
Melta
One Sister may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Fast Attack
Seraphim
4 Seraphim and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Seraphim
Up to 2 Seraphim may replace their bolt pistols with:
Two hand flamers
Two Inferno pistols
Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with:
Chainsword
Power sword
Eviscerator
Superior may replace her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Dominion Squad
4 Dominions and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Dominions
For every 5 models in the squad, up to two Dominions may replace their boltgun with:
Storm bolter
Flamer
Meltagun
One Dominion may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Heavy Support
Retributor Squad
4 Retributors and Superior, may include up to 5 additional Retributors
Up to 4 Retributors may replace their boltgun with:
Heavy bolter
Multi-melta
Heavy flamer
One Retributor may take Simulacrum Imperialis
Superior may replace her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
Chainsword
Storm bolter
Power sword or combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma
Condemnor boltgun or plasma pistol
Superior may take melta bombs

Exorcist
Searchlight
Dozer blade
Storm bolter
Hunter-killer missile
Extra armour

Penitent Engine
Unit Composition 1 Penitent Engine
Options:
Include an additional two Penitent Engines

So lets start with looking at the retardedly bad wargear.
-Any model that may replace bolt pistol with chainsword.
Why the hell would you do this? A Bolt pistol counts as a CCW in assault so there is absolutely no reason what so ever to do this. Sure it's free for any model that can do this but WHY?!?!?! You lose the ability to shoot before an assault and gain NOTHING!!

Now for the so bad it has to be a mistake wargear.
-Condemnor boltgun
I understand the point of this weapon but why such shitty rule for Psi-shock?
Must me shitty editing as spelling errors and other problems can be found in allot of places.

Grey Knight Condemnor Boltgun
Psi-shock: Any psyker HIT by the stake crossbow shot suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

Sisters of Battle Condemnor Boltgun
Psi-shock: Any psyker that takes an UNSAVED wound from the stake-crossbow shot suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

Now for some missing wargear choices.
Celestian Squad
Where is the option for every member to replace their boltgun with a chainsword? The only unit in the army where you would consider doing this and you can't do it. The Command Squad Celestians can so why not the regular ones? So what is the point of the Celestian squad? Why the hell do they cost 15pts each? Grey Hunters cost 15pt each and come with +1S +1T +1I the same amount of attacks base (they come with CCW and Bolt pistol) but Ld8 instead of Ld9.
So you are telling me +1Ld is worth the same as +1S +1T and +1I?
They also get their flamer for free and their meltagun costs 5pt while ours cost 10.

But Celestians may sometimes have +1S and Fearless and have a 6++ save!!
/facepalm, sit down and shut the fuck up you Spheeze Mehreene fanboy!

Blessed Ammo
Where has this gone? Why wasn't there any special ammo in our list?

Now for some "wtf?" wargear.
Any unit that can take either a multi-melta or a regular melta, they both cost 10pts. I guess for the Command Squad you'd always take Multi-meltas over meltas as your AoF gives Relentless.

Seraphim Squad
Two hand flamers cost 20pts per model
Two Inferno pistols cost 30pts per model

This looks expensive but the Seraphim pistol rule says they can fire both pistols separately. Does this mean you can fire each hand flamer and inferno pistol? The points cost would suggest this.

Now for the "Good" parts of the codex.
Saint Celestine
At 115pts she is a real bargain, probably one of the best SC for the points cost in the game. Is this another one of those Cruddace Valkyrie units?
As it's common for Cruddace to have low points costs (compared to other units in the same FOC slot) for new kits (Valk and Trygons) does this mean GW has an abundance of Saint Celestine models they want to get rid of? Most likely is the answer to this...

Now for "It could have been good but in the end fails to deliver"
Sororitas Command Squad
You can give each Celestian a special or heavy weapon and their act of faith gives Relentless amongst other things but in the end the unit will rarely be useful. Reason is there are no models in the unit you want to assign wounds to. If you give the Celestians heavy weapons and put them in terrain the Hospitaller or Dialogus will be the first to die, if you dont give them special weapons the Celestians will be the first to die. For the bonuses they provide the unit is rather useless for combat, the turn you get shot at is the turn you will lose this unit. If anything you would put them in a transport and keep them close for the Laud Hailer bonus or a Banner bonus but other than this the unit is pretty bad. Perhaps 1 meltagun so you can use the vehicles firing port.

Penitent Engine
At 85pts each they are way to expensive, they will never make it into combat because they are too easy to destroy and Rage makes them predictable. At 50pt I would have considered them because they have less survivability than a killa-kan.

Unit Composition says 1 Penitent Engine, options say: Include an additional two Penitent Engines
It does not say anywhere that the PE are in a squadron like it did in the old codex, does this mean that each PE is independent of the others? This would have been a huge boost to them but they will still never make it into combat.


Conclusion
This codex is rushed, it lacks in pretty much every department. Heck even the WD itself seems rushed with spelling errors and other mistakes in almost every unit entry. This seems like something the WD team was told to throw together the day before the issue was to be sent to the printers. It doesn't explain the spelling errors in the 2nd part though.

All in all the codex is shit, you may try to convince me otherwise but unless the FAQ makes some huge changes, as in a complete rewrite of the codex I see no hope for it. The army lacks variety, every single Sister entry is copy paste of the last with a slight change. Units and wargear is too expensive to be useful, most of the AoF are useless and doesn't scale with the size of your army. Allot of choices seems to point towards a close combat army but you NEVER EVER want to end up in CC with your Sisters. I get the impression that Cruddace thought he was writing rules for a Space Marine army and not units with human stats.


----------



## Suijin

WallWeasels said:


> Well you lack troops...so you can't even take it. Conclaves are "retinue" HQs that are only accessible through the confessors/jacobus/kyrinov, they don't make them troops.


Ah you are right I guess, don't have the next WD yet myself.

Well guess you would have to "burn" some points on some sisters then heh.

I have 20 models for the Battle conclaves and 3 penitent engines. I might try something along those lines. Although I am short some rhinos, but could convert immolators I guess, heh.


----------



## andrewm9

Zion said:


> No need to be cross about it. I'm not Cruddance. I was just offering the summary of what was said. Which coincidently echos what people tell me I should only do with Sisters (namely shoot and never assault and that somehow makes you win).
> 
> I've had more luck being the person launching the assault at times (when facing Berserkers and Death Company especially) than recieving it. But then again when you can end up taking a LOT more attacks BEING assaulted at times, well sometimes it's best to be the aggressor. It's all situational though of course.


Sorry about that. I didn't mean to sound so nasty. The written medium is not my strong suit sometimes. I know what you mean about assaults. I've pulled off more than a few successful assaults myself with sisters before, but that seems a lot less possible now than before. We will have to rely on the non-sisters units for decent assault.


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> So lets do a round up shall we.
> 
> 
> Condemnor Boltgun: Combi-stake crossbow. 24" S5 AP- Assault 1, Psi-shock
> Psi-shock: Any psyker that takes an UNSAVED wound suffer Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.


The GK FAQ gives the same rules for this, so it's equally useless to both armies for what it's worth.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> The GK FAQ gives the same rules for this, so it's equally useless to both armies for what it's worth.


Ah, that solves that problem. From shitty to completely useless piece of wargear.


----------



## Suijin

So the good are:
St. Celestine
Confessors
Battle Conclaves
??? at a loss to really be jazzed about too many others

I'll probably take Seraphim as I like them fluffly-wise and they aren't horrible rule-wise

I could see the Command squad riding in a rhino shooting 2 MM out of the hatches being good after moving with relentless, but still only 2 MM there at a time, probably expensive points-wise too. Oh and you need to take the Canoness, that's weird saying that, as that was the best choice in HQ by far in the old codex (cheap too points-wise).


----------



## SGMAlice

Zion said:


> *puts hand down* I'm a firm believer in either sucking it up or shelving it if it doesn't work. Who knows, I may find a way to make it work for me that makes them better than expected. Or I may get frustrated and paint them here and there and leave them at home until a nicer dex comes along.


So you would rather shelve them than just continue to use the old Codex?
 Whatever floats your boat.

4 Yea's (Including mine)
1 Nay

Hoping to get some kind of concensus here, within Heresy's SoB player community; so if you could all, you know, add your vote?

SGMAlice


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> *ROLLUP SNIP*quote]
> 
> So the sum-up I'm getting is that WARD (who is imfamous for his Bloodtide fluff bit these days) put more effort into his stuff for this WD-Dex than CRUDDANCE (who actuall PLAYS Sisters).
> 
> Is GW run by Bizzaro by chance?
> 
> 
> 
> andrewm9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry about that. I didn't mean to sound so nasty. The written medium is not my strong suit sometimes. I know what you mean about assaults. I've pulled off more than a few successful assaults myself with sisters before, but that seems a lot less possible now than before. We will have to rely on the non-sisters units for decent assault.
> 
> 
> 
> It's cool, it happens to the best of us at times.
> 
> And I'll probably still field Repentia here and there for support. Given a good set-up (and occasionally dumb luck) they can be pretty decent under the 3rd Ed rules (this last weekend in an escalation tournement my squad of 8 Repentia, a Mistress and a Priest suffered a holy rage result (got a 6 for a 12" move!) MURDERED a Veteran Dreadnought during the assault phase, and on his turn he shot off half the squad with a Land Raider (who got cover saves from it) who then failed their leadership test, ran into the Land Raider and popped it in the following assault phase). A unit that cost me a little less than a Land Raider managed to kill roughly 450 points of stuff.
> 
> Now I know that kind of awesome is rare and won't be likely to happen again, but I'll definitely be trying to see if I can make them work. After all, Death Company can be made to work, why can Repentia? And if nothing else they could probably be made into a decent counter-assault unit by wrapping a larger unit of BSS around them (say in a Foot list). Would it be feasible? Not likely, but it could still be fun. :biggrin:
Click to expand...


----------



## rasolyo

I'd say that I'd want to keep using Codex: WH, but we have to move on.

There has to be a decent list in the new codex somewhere!


----------



## mahavira

SGMAlice said:


> So you would rather shelve them than just continue to use the old Codex?
> Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> 4 Yea's (Including mine)
> 1 Nay
> 
> Hoping to get some kind of concensus here, within Heresy's SoB player community; so if you could all, you know, add your vote?
> 
> SGMAlice


Nay. I hated the old faith system and most everything else is either fine by me or an improvement.


----------



## SGMAlice

rasolyo said:


> I'd say that I'd want to keep using Codex: WH, but we have to move on.
> 
> There has to be a decent list in the new codex somewhere!


You can if you want to but i will take that as a 'Nay'

4 Yea's
3 Nay's

SGMAlice


----------



## Zion

SGMAlice said:


> So you would rather shelve them than just continue to use the old Codex?
> 
> Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> 4 Yea's
> 
> 1 Nay
> 
> Hoping to get some kind of concensus here, within Heresy's SoB player community; so if you could all, you know, add your vote?
> 
> SGMAlice




I'm a weird sort of nut who is a firm believer in playing the rules provided or not playing. Can I really say I was playing fairly if I shirk my current Chaos Marine codex to use the older one just so I can field Basalisks in an Iron Warriors army? Personally I don't feel so, and the same goes here. If I can't have fun with it, I don't use it. I'm not selling my army or abandoning ship, and it'll allow me to work on getting all that naked metal painted if that's the case (I only got into the army this year and spent about $850 USD to get where I am now with them. 



Previously I'd been wanting to play them since about the same time they were discontinued as an item you could get outside of GW's site (and FLGS that don't return unsold stock (I managed to get one of the last (still in shrink wrapped plastic) 10 packs in existance that way)). And after a stint with Necrons (because they were cheaper), Nids (because I liked the models and the MASSIVE swarm army) and Chaos Marines (I was trying to play a pure Death Guard army for a while there in an enviroment that is VERY anti-vehicle and thus great at killing Plague Marines (High S, Low AP weapons make Nurgle cry)) I finally gave in and started collecting. 



When the rumors came out the army was getting an update I was rather excited. For one, it meant a real codex (or so I thought at the time), and two maybe some nice plastic models (I like to do a little custom work on my models from time to time as my converted 3-armed Chaos Marine can attest to) and maybe even an Exorcist that was plastic to boot? I not only started to collecting but bought everything my FLGS had (save for one Shrine, a Priest and a Repentia Mistress), and spent a ridiculous amount of money ordering direct from GW (I'm too lazy to spend my time stripping models) and even got quite a few from a buddy of mine who had gotten them from someone else and had already stripped the paint off of them (so this makes them 3rd hand models??). With my decently sized force I will admit I was crushed by the idea of the WD-dex. 

But I started to come around with some of the changes (though taking all my Eviscerators away makes me very sad and that'll take some time to warm up to). 



Now am I excited by all these changes? Not really. Some of them seem counter-intuitive (USRs replacing almost all the special rules for streamlining purposes but we give each unit type it's own unique faith power that we have to keep straight?), and the wargear options don't seem paticularly good, but some of the updates are pretty sweet, the stats on some of the units are looking a lot more appropiate for Sisters (at least to me) and some of what we got it pretty good.



The real question will come to this for me: is it fun? Yes, I do play to win (afterall, it's not a game if you aren't working towards that end goal), but I can't enjoy the trip towards the goal if it isn't enjoyable. And if that's the case, then I can't see myself playing them until they're fun again. So I've got my fingers crossed for this weekend and we'll see I guess.


----------



## Suijin

Nay.

I'll look for some way to play them with the new rules.

Look at it this way, if you take a bunch of units without faith then you have way more faith to use on the others.

Any master-crafted items?


----------



## Necrosis

Suijin said:


> Nay.
> 
> I'll look for some way to play them with the new rules.
> 
> Look at it this way, if you take a bunch of units without faith then you have way more faith to use on the others.
> 
> Any master-crafted items?


Nope, there are none.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Best SoB army? That's really easy with the new dex.

HQ
Saint Celestine: 115pts

Uriah Jacobus: 90

Battle Conclave
9 Death Cult Assassins: 135pt
-Rhino Transport: 35

Troops
2x Battle Sister Squads 250pt
-4x meltagun 40pt or 2x melta and 2x flamer 30pt
-2x Rhino 70pt

Fast Attack
3x Dominion Squad 70pt
-6x meltagun 60pt or flamer 30pt
-3x Immolator 195

Heavy Support
3x Exorcist 405pt

Total: 1425 - 1470pt

This is the most likely army setup you will face if you go up against Sisters, which you wont because this codex sucks.

-But shouldn't you be happy you received something at all after spending 8 years without getting anything?

If a homeless man with nothing asks you for some money but instead you beat him down and take a large diarrhoea shit on his face, do you think he will be happy to receive something when he had nothing?


Best way to sum up the codex?


----------



## Necrosis

Are you going to be running the death cults without putting Jacob in the squad?


----------



## Zion

Nothing personal MCC, but can we leave the griping to Warseer? They seem to be doing enough today for the entire 40K community as it is. Yes the new codex is uninspired in most places and really seems to make no sense for it to be written by someone who claims to love the army (maybe Cruddance is secretly into emotional S&M and is getting off on this whole thing?) but I don't think we really need to stoop to the same level as the rest of the internet just because GW phoned this in so hard they probably called collect.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Necrosis said:


> Are you going to be running the death cults without putting Jacob in the squad?


Remove 1 Death Cultist and put him in the Rhino with them, might make for a good assault unit.



Zion said:


> Nothing personal MCC, but can we leave the griping to Warseer? They seem to be doing enough today for the entire 40K community as it is. Yes the new codex is uninspired in most places and really seems to make no sense for it to be written by someone who claims to love the army (maybe Cruddance is secretly into emotional S&M and is getting off on this whole thing?) but I don't think we really need to stoop to the same level as the rest of the internet just because GW phoned this in so hard they probably called collect.


----------



## SGMAlice

Graphic... very graphic  But accurate.
@MCC: Methinks thats a Yea?

5 Yea's
4 Nay's

SGMAlice


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If by Yea you mean the codex sucks then you are correct.

All in all I'm sure there is 1 or 2 lists you could make that are semi competitive but overall the codex is just so uninspiring, there is nothing that makes you go "WOW! I want that". It's the exact same thing as before but this time you replace your Canoness with St Celestine instead.
Immolator spam will be the way to go with 3 Exorcists as usual.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Remove 1 Death Cultist and put him in the Rhino with them, might make for a good assault unit.
> 
> 
> 
> You Can't Handle the Truth - YouTube
> House - You can't handle the truth - YouTube


I can handle the truth just fine. I just think that Heresy is a more mature board that most of the internet and shouldn't be degrading itself by acting like a bunch of whiny 12 year olds who were just grounded from Facebook. There are plenty of mature and adult ways about voicing our displeasure with the product we're getting, but graphic descriptions about deficating on the homeless isn't one of them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You are right of course but that's just my way of venting frustration. I will see if I can get my hands on Cruddace at Games Day, from what I heard Ward will be leaving GW shortly and perhaps Cruddace is to follow.

This codex is rushed, that's very obvious so perhaps Cruddace could offer some insight into what the real Sister dex will be like. Going by GWs track record it isn't looking good though.

I just can't see the niche of the army, it used to be Faith but it's been toned down so much they could have just made the AoF special rules instead.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> You are right of course but that's just my way of venting frustration. I will see if I can get my hands on Cruddace at Games Day, from what I heard Ward will be leaving GW shortly and perhaps Cruddace is to follow.
> 
> This codex is rushed, that's very obvious so perhaps Cruddace could offer some insight into what the real Sister dex will be like. Going by GWs track record it isn't looking good though.
> 
> I just can't see the niche of the army, it used to be Faith but it's been toned down so much they could have just made the AoF special rules instead.


Perhaps the niche he was shooting for was watered-down female Guard in power armor? It sure seems like that's what we got.

And I've been forgetting to mention it, but I am disappointed in these "S vs Ld" weapons (I recently spotted one in one of the Fantasy army books I read (OK I think)). The average leadership in 40K is what, 9+? That means the Nueral Whip needs to hit most things on a 5 or 6 to wound them. Sure it'll work great against certain kinds of armies, but who is REALLY going to be charging Repentia into those units (Nid swarms, Ork mobs, ect) when they'll be outnumbered by much cheaper models and won't be able to win the combat without being wiped out first? The whole idea of using the S vs Ld in 40K is silly. In Fantasy it may work because the adverage leadership is lower (about 6-7) so you can do more wounds that way, but here, it's lost. If Cruddance wanted it to tie into leadership he should have made it so that it modifies the enemies leadership by a signifigant amount (say -3 or -4), even if they're Stubborn and makes Fearless units test as normal (because it's actually harming the opponent's mind with each strike). THAT is how you make something cool and representive of it doing something unusual.

That or by going a more mundane route make it do double wounds against Psykers (since Sisters hate those and they're pretty popular). And make it so it auto-glances a any vehicle with psychic powers (Librarian Dread, Grey Knights transports) if it hits (even if it fails it's pen roll, but if it manages it's pen roll then it can pen as normal). AND keep it S8. Grey Knights would hate it, and it'd even make it so the Repentia would be able to more easilly handle other Psychic units (like Lash Princes).

EDIT: I know it's a silly idea to suggest the idea that the Sisters be GOOD at something (namely purging Heretics, of which Psykers are among) but I think if anything an army with fluff that characterful should be embracing it harder than it currently is. The army (based on the fluff and concept) has the potential for some very cool rules, effects and models, but for the most part it seems we don't get much of that (at least some of the models are cool).

DOUBLE EDIT: I may sitdown this weekend and see if I can crack out a small fandex with some of the ideas I have of where the army should have gone. Will I play test it? Just as much as GW did (not at all). I won't actually use it, but I think I can knock out an acceptable codex with the same sort of general guidelines this book falls under (no using anything there aren't models for, bring it in line with 5th Ed, and do it FAST).


----------



## WallWeasels

Thats my point MCC...try "selling" this army to someone. There is nothing this army can do better than another in the Imperium. :| I am sad the "acts of faith" and "act of faith' was just a typo


----------



## hells

on the using new rules or not, not sure, atm im trying them, they were bearable with old points and wargear, but a lot of thats gone now and more expensive so chances are it wont go well :/ if it fails horribad i would drop back or try a fandex


----------



## [email protected]

Well, I hope my LGS has the WD when I drop in tomorrow, but until then:

It feels to me like we got the sisters cousins. Meaning, the old sisters army worked one way, and these, while sharing similar backgrounds, work differently. I think the pain is coming from them being expected to work similarly. Looking at it from my perspective, as virtually re-starting from scratch rules-wise, it feels like they basically just gave me a whole new set of rules to try out. Trying to shoehorn in old expectations just doesn't work and makes me grumpy, whereas not using preconceived notions is working well for my approach. Granted, old SoBs, heh, should have love of their fluff and army, so don't think I'm saying that you should all bail on your loves, but if _anyone_ needed a reboot, it was SoB.

We all know that they crammed out this codex because they needed to fill space in WD due to other delays, we all knew new models weren't coming, and we all know they had to make the codex work for existing models and help move items like Celestine off the shelf. 

And, I secretly think Zion _is_ actually Cruddace trolling the forums. 


J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> And, I secretly think Zion _is_ actually Cruddace trolling the forums.
> 
> J


If that's the case GW owes me some money for this rag that they're calling an update. I'll let you know if they send me a check.


----------



## mahavira

Are exorcists still d6 shots? Don't think anyone's mentioned and despite being Canadian I don't read French.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Are exorcists still d6 shots? Don't think anyone's mentioned and despite being Canadian I don't read French.


Exorcist are the same aside from having smoke and a 6+ invu save.


----------



## Kraban

Zion said:


> And I've been forgetting to mention it, but I am disappointed in these "S vs Ld" weapons (I recently spotted one in one of the Fantasy army books I read (OK I think)). The average leadership in 40K is what, 9+? That means the Nueral Whip needs to hit most things on a 5 or 6 to wound them. Sure it'll work great against certain kinds of armies, but who is REALLY going to be charging Repentia into those units (Nid swarms, Ork mobs, ect) when they'll be outnumbered by much cheaper models and won't be able to win the combat without being wiped out first? The whole idea of using the S vs Ld in 40K is silly. In Fantasy it may work because the adverage leadership is lower (about 6-7) so you can do more wounds that way, but here, it's lost. If Cruddance wanted it to tie into leadership he should have made it so that it modifies the enemies leadership by a signifigant amount (say -3 or -4), even if they're Stubborn and makes Fearless units test as normal (because it's actually harming the opponent's mind with each strike). THAT is how you make something cool and representive of it doing something unusual.


Well, as I remember they still make an instant death to T4 unit. Besides, Ld of a common marine is 8 giving us 4+to wound. Marine sergeant has ld 9, but here works rule for most common stat.

Are Sister Hospitalier and Dialogus fixed in command squad or we can replace them with celestians?


----------



## Zion

Kraban said:


> Well, as I remember they still make an instant death to T4 unit. Besides, Ld of a common marine is 8 giving us 4+to wound. Marine sergeant has ld 9, but here works rule for most common stat.
> 
> Are Sister Hospitalier and Dialogus fixed in command squad or we can replace them with celestians?


The problem with Instant Death is that it only helps if you're trying to negate FNP or dealing with multi-wound models. Most multi-wound models (that I can think of at the moment) have leadership at 9 or better. And with it being a Power Weapon you're really just getting something that might as well have been made into a S4 Power Weapon for what it does (though it's S8 against vehicles which IS nice, why not just give us that, or are they worried the ONE model in the squad who would hit with or immediately after their unit doing a couple of wounds really going to turn the tide of battle that much?). Or are there a bunch of high T low, Ld models I can't remember?

It just comes off as a weak gimmick that could have really been something cool if a little thought was put into it. It doesn't even do anything to the opponent's leadership (from what's been said here at least) to make the S vs Ld good.

EDIT: Actually I just thought of something. Since it's against the Ld not the T doesn't that mean it DOESN'T cause Instant Death except in Ld4 units? Or am I being thrown of by RAW vs RAI?


----------



## mahavira

The Neural whip actually represents an improvement against most basic marines - used to be S3 vs T4, now is a 4+ as has been mentioned. Damn wierd way of going about it, and has strange side effects for who/what it's good against (wounds a trygon on 4+, a carnifex on a 3+, and raveners on 2+, and those are actually fair targets for repentia), but not actually a downgrade and really her point is to make the act of faith more likely rather than her personal combat prowess.


----------



## Kraban

Well, This weapon may have "wound against ld" rule, but it's still S8. Callidus neural shreder inflicts instant death as I remember.

Even a 6+ chance for model with 3 attacks is enough to force your opponent to think twice and is really deadly against some units, for example Ork Nobs. Add that in old codex mistress had 3S, so as most models have T4 and Ld9 we will see little change.

Neural whip doesn't work against vehicles.


----------



## Synack

Is there a H-Flamer/Multi-melta upgrade for the Immolator and what is the cost. I think I missed it.


----------



## Kraban

Shandathe said:


> Very much missing in the HS section is the Immolator, which has been demoted to purely being a dedicated transport... and losing functionality there as it no longer has the fire point nor the ability to fire the flamer while moving. Fortunately, it makes up for that somewhat by letting you exchange the flamers for HBs that re-roll wounds for free. The Multi-melta would add 15 points to the initial 65 but Immolators are far less worth taking overall now.


Here are Immo's rules.
Still, It seems more easy to pay 35pts for rhino, 20 for HF, 5 for flamer instead of Immo's 65, and fire from top hatch=)


----------



## rasolyo

So is the rhino at 35? Or is it at 40 like we've been speculating?

I'm still reeling from the 20 point Heavy Flamers. So much for the flamer part of "Bolter, Melta, and Flamer" eh?


----------



## Kraban

What is point cost for Imagifer?


----------



## Sworn Radical

@ SGMAlice: Personally I'd just love to continue using the old WH codex, but with all the rules-lawyers and gaming-fetishists around these days I'll most likely be forced to use the new _'codex'_ when playing at my FLGS, GW store, etc.


----------



## Shandathe

Rhino is 35 (free 6+ save, which suddenly makes it a nice feature). 
Simulacrum Imperialis is +20, and makes a lot more of a difference than it used to given the general unreliability of AoFs.


----------



## Winterous

Suijin said:


> Ah I found out where I thought it came from: The GW 40K rules FAQ page 6, "_
> Q: Does a unit with the​​​​​​​​​*Scout *special rule pass it on to
> any vehicle it is embarked in? (p76)​
> _A: No."
> 
> pg 76 does say it does confer to dedicated transports. Is it even possible to have a unit in a transport that is not dedicated to it at the time when deploying so that the scout rule would ever even possibly apply???
> 
> Maybe only an Independant Character joined to a unit?


Thread jumped like 10 pages overnight, FUCK READING THROUGH IT ALL!
Anyway, that FAQ is only to specifically state that NON-Dedicated Transports can't get Scouts from their riders.
It says "any vehicle it is embarked in.".
Now this could be interpreted in two ways, any meaning any individual, or any meaning all individuals.
If they wanted to contradict the BRB by it meaning all individuals, they would say so specifically, not in such an ambiguous way.

An example of what I mean.
"Can I sit anywhere?"
It can either mean:
"Can I sit wherever I want?"
Or:
"Is there anywhere I can sit?"

See what I mean? :>


----------



## Mokuren

SGMAlice said:


> Graphic... very graphic  But accurate.
> @MCC: Methinks thats a Yea?
> 
> 5 Yea's
> 4 Nay's
> 
> SGMAlice


My main problem is that, aside from the fact that I do not like this codex one bit and am absolutely abashed that not only nothing got added but what good there was was either removed, increased in price and many options were lost... Well, the main problem is that I still can't get into the army.

See, whoever said this is an update for those that are already playing is right; regardless of whether it's a good change or not (I sincerely believe it was farted out between bathrooms break as it blatantly shows no care about the army and no understanding of neither how it works nor what it's supposed to do). And that's the problem: with no new models, there is absolutely no chance to do anything new or creative or to actually put a proper direction to the codex that isn't "Space Marines with -4 strength" as this update blatantly is. I believe the Cruddace Time Sale on St. Celestine is all the proof we need about the actual priorities they had when making this.

But I digress...

Back to my main point: I am one of those "potential" players that really dug the army and like the look and style but had no disposable income to get in the hobby until very recently, and this means all I have is a standard bearer that I have painted to practice and to try and find a decent colour scheme... But that's it.

That model was 7.5€ back when I bought it, but now everything is special order only and there is nothing below 11,50€. Wonder how I feel about collecting an army where every single model costs 11,50€ or more? It means I would have to spend, at the very least, 230€ for troops only, assuming no upgrades whatsoever, plus something for a HQ that might range between another 11,50€ and 17,50€, and that's for the sole purpose of fielding an army that satisfies the bare minimum requirements to be called such. And it'd be what, about 300 points?

Sorry, I'm not spending the equivalent of over 360$ for an army with which I can probably, possibly barely play 500 points skirmishes, and horribly suck at them on top of that. I frankly do not even care much about the latter, it's the price gate that is simply outrageous: That amount of money would earn me at least 1000 points of any other army, possibly much more if I buy used.

I think it's time to fall back on Dark Elves, I had bought a few of them on impulse back when I was a fickle teen during a summer vacation but only got to paint them... Now, which is 12 years later. Seems like it's time to get into fantasy if I actually want to play the game.

Call me when there'll be new models and a proper release. Even if it comes around in 2014, I'll hopefully be still around.


----------



## SGMAlice

6 Yea's
4 Nay's

Are there really only ten of us playing SoB's on Heresy? I can't see it.

SGMAlice

Edit: This is just because i am intuiged to know, no one has to add their vote to it if they don't want to.
for those who missed it: The original question:


SGMAlice said:


> Hands up all those still using 3rd Ed. Until 6th...
> 
> SGMAlice


----------



## [email protected]

Well, if I'm not in that list, I might count. I'm going to try to play. At least once or twice. Granted, either the Orks or Chaos or Vanilla Marines are gonna kick my sorry hide back to Ophelia, but I'm gonna try for the god-emperor one more time. 

J


----------



## Bodo1260

SGMAlice said:


> 6 Yea's
> 4 Nay's
> 
> Are there really only ten of us playing SoB's on Heresy? I can't see it.
> 
> SGMAlice
> 
> Edit: This is just because i am intuiged to know, no one has to add their vote to it if they don't want to.
> for those who missed it: The original question:


Mine's a Yea too,

I'm only a lurker, but i'm mightily pissed off by this. *goes away and sobs with the SoB's*


----------



## Grogbart

count me nay then!

Although I like the old rules sightly better, I am more than through with them.
Its more or less always the same list, against pretty much always Space Marines at my FLAGS (occasionally Necrons, which is even less fun rather than a welcome alternative) and nearly every game, the same face-palms over the current general rules.

I will play one game with the new rules sometime, to earn my right to complain!
But other than that, its probably "See you!" till 6th ed comes out and THAN I will decide whether its even worth waiting for the full Sister Codex!

I won't imply, everyone has over red my earlier question, but just in case:
Is there really nobody interested in a joint Fandex, to counter this uninspiring piece of WDex?


----------



## TheSpore

Bodo1260 said:


> Mine's a Yea too,
> 
> I'm only a lurker, but i'm mightily pissed off by this. *goes away and sobs with the SoB's*


You can make that 11

Been runnin them for years just recently had to strip em alland now Im working getting them back in the fight.


----------



## Voldrak

After reading the white dwarf, the codex itself is pretty bad. Everything has been massively watered down.

Wargear seems to have been adjusted to what can be currently purchased from their available items. I am surprised as a result that seraphims kept their Inferno pistols.

You have to admit however that from a business standpoint, this codex is almost pure genius.

While the codex is bad, the August and September issues of white dwarf will likely have sold really well and once they get around to selling the real codex it will be nearly impossible to make it worst than this one which means it will also sell really well if only to get rid of our white dwarf codex.

Hopefully it will be released shortly after 6th edition comes out.


----------



## TheSpore

Voldrak said:


> After reading the white dwarf, the codex itself is pretty bad. Everything has been massively watered down.
> 
> Wargear seems to have been adjusted to what can be currently purchased from their available items. I am surprised as a result that seraphims kept their Inferno pistols.
> 
> You have to admit however that from a business standpoint, this codex is almost pure genius.
> 
> While the codex is bad, the August and September issues of white dwarf will likely have sold really well and once they get around to selling the real codex it will be nearly impossible to make it worst than this one which means it will also sell really well if only to get rid of our white dwarf codex.
> 
> Hopefully it will be released shortly after 6th edition comes out.


naaa they will just keep punchin out more new DE models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Voldrak said:


> After reading the white dwarf, the codex itself is pretty bad. Everything has been massively watered down.
> 
> Wargear seems to have been adjusted to what can be currently purchased from their available items. I am surprised as a result that seraphims kept their Inferno pistols.
> 
> You have to admit however that from a business standpoint, this codex is almost pure genius.
> 
> While the codex is bad, the August and September issues of white dwarf will likely have sold really well and once they get around to selling the real codex it will be nearly impossible to make it worst than this one which means it will also sell really well if only to get rid of our white dwarf codex.
> 
> Hopefully it will be released shortly after 6th edition comes out.


You are too optimistic, from what I've read the BA WD codex was pretty much exactly the same as the official codex released.
So what we will get will most likely be exactly the same as now but with new kits (if there are any) thrown in that are allot better and cheaper than anything else.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> You are too optimistic, from what I've read the BA WD codex was pretty much exactly the same as the official codex released.


That's not true, it was actually very different.
I mean, I don't still have it, but I think I remember that their vehicles weren't Fast, for a start.
I mean they're Marines, their Assault Squads were still Troops, but other than basic things like that I don't think there were any real similarities.

No Elite Chaplains, no Priests, etc..


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> That's not true, it was actually very different.
> I mean, I don't still have it, but I think I remember that their vehicles weren't Fast, for a start.
> I mean they're Marines, their Assault Squads were still Troops, but other than basic things like that I don't think there were any real similarities.
> 
> No Elite Chaplains, no Priests, etc..


So there is still hope? Yay... then again it's Sisters and GW so that's still a great hurdle to get over...


----------



## AlexHolker

SGMAlice said:


> 6 Yea's
> 4 Nay's
> 
> Are there really only ten of us playing SoB's on Heresy? I can't see it.


I'd _like_ to be a SoB player, but won't be as long as the only models are overpriced, Direct-only, decade old metals blocked by a trade embargo.

If not for that, I'd definitely use C:WH (or a fandex) rather than this new rubbish.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here's a question.

Battle Sister Superior
May replace her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with
Chainsword
Storm bolter
power sword or combi-flamer, melta or plasma

So does this mean I can exchange my boltgun for say a Storm bolter and my pistol for a combi-flamer? or why not go all out and take a combi-flamer instead of boltgun and combi-plasma instead of bolt pistol?

Sisters dual wielding combi bolters ftw :crazy:

This should also allow you to replace the boltgun with a power weapon and the bolt pistol with a power weapon? Still wont make a difference with S3 but it's an option for a single model :crazy:


----------



## jimbo1701

MadCowCrazy said:


> So there is still hope? Yay... then again it's Sisters and GW so that's still a great hurdle to get over...


They were very different luckily, in many ways:

1. New special characters (astorath, sanguinor etc)
2. Death company - no longer one free for every squad, now they're a different unit that is 0-1 and takes up a troops slot. 
3. New units from the SM codex i.e vanguard/sternguard to replace veteran assault marines and also included scout bikers
4. Baal predators in a different slot with a new weapon. 
5. Most vehicles now fast rather than random extra movement for a few vehicles.
6. Land raiders as dedicated transports and can deep strike.
7. Librarian dreadnoughts and other upgrades for furiosos previously unavailable. 
8. sanguinary priests as a 1-3 choice per elite slot. 
9. Reclusiarchs (pimped chaplains) as HQ, normal chaplains as elite. 
10. Stormravens as a new heavy slot.
11. Death company dreads as a troops choice; 1 for every 5 DC taken.
12. New sanguinary guard unit
13. reworked red thrist rules.

By no means an exhaustive list but if only a fraction of this kind of shuffling goes into an eventual SoB codex release then it should please a lot of players. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Revarien

I play SoB... ( for the person that thinks only 11 here play)...

I'm still on the fence honestly. I guess you can count me as using the new dex... but just not too happy about it. I feel like I had a bunch of stuff taken away from me without gaining much in return. I sorta feel like us SoB players are being treated like children being punished for something... and I don't know what... like we had the audacity to ask for a codex and activated GW's snide side: "Oh... you want a codex? That's so good for people like you! Here... here is a 'codex'."

But then I feel like there is potential... but that I'll be forced to use special characters to have that potential (and that activates sooooo much ire and angst around here - dunno why... people just seem to scream* that I should've asked permission).

*not really scream, just get all broody that I didn't ask... I've never seen this rule, in the current edition... and then when I do ask (to be polite), they get all angry that I'm using a named character... *sigh* the stuff I put up with to play a game at times...


----------



## boreas

Sisters were my first army, 8 years ago. To them' Ive added GK, 7 years ago. With the tremendously cool update that was Codex: Grey Knight, i just can say that this WD Codex: Sisters of Battle is less than "meh".

Even without new models, they could have added very nice things to the codex and still kept some "bang" for a future release.

Now, I feel as excited as I'd be by trading a '97 white Corolla for a '99 beige Corolla. 

I'll be back in a year when then deal is getting closer (if it is, after Necrons, Tau, CSM, Black Templars, Dark Angels, 6th ed.....). Make that 2 years...

Phil

ps. Kudos to all those of you that manage keep excited!


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

I am a SoB player and I tried playing with the new rules [with limited old wargear assuming the worst] and I must say I did have a lot of fun playing. Retributors with Rending did their thing; they even assaulted a SM Veteran Squad and won! [OK, it was 10 Sisters vs 2 Marines, but for sucky units in cc, they made me proud].

The highlight of the night was the flurry of Shield of Faith my Exorcist and Immolator did [the exorcist survived 3 deadly attacks and the Immolator rolled 6 twice to be bothersome for a few more turns.]

I understand the disapointment of most players; the whole mechanics of the army is diferent, but I activated acts of faith in every turn and that's more than I can say for what I did with the old rules.

Is the WDex better than C:WH? No, not in a million years.

Are the Sisters of Battle so nerfed that the only option is not to play them with the new rules? I don't think so.

In short, I will play with the new rules.


----------



## Zion

Inquisitor Win- I'm glad to hear that the test game you played went well. 

Personally I'm anxious to try the new rules out. If nothing else it'll be good to actually try them before I give up on them.


----------



## Suijin

Mokuren said:


> My main problem is that, aside from the fact that I do not like this codex one bit and am absolutely abashed that not only nothing got added but what good there was was either removed, increased in price and many options were lost... Well, the main problem is that I still can't get into the army.
> 
> See, whoever said this is an update for those that are already playing is right; regardless of whether it's a good change or not (I sincerely believe it was farted out between bathrooms break as it blatantly shows no care about the army and no understanding of neither how it works nor what it's supposed to do). And that's the problem: with no new models, there is absolutely no chance to do anything new or creative or to actually put a proper direction to the codex that isn't "Space Marines with -4 strength" as this update blatantly is. I believe the Cruddace Time Sale on St. Celestine is all the proof we need about the actual priorities they had when making this.
> 
> But I digress...
> 
> Back to my main point: I am one of those "potential" players that really dug the army and like the look and style but had no disposable income to get in the hobby until very recently, and this means all I have is a standard bearer that I have painted to practice and to try and find a decent colour scheme... But that's it.
> 
> That model was 7.5€ back when I bought it, but now everything is special order only and there is nothing below 11,50€. Wonder how I feel about collecting an army where every single model costs 11,50€ or more? It means I would have to spend, at the very least, 230€ for troops only, assuming no upgrades whatsoever, plus something for a HQ that might range between another 11,50€ and 17,50€, and that's for the sole purpose of fielding an army that satisfies the bare minimum requirements to be called such. And it'd be what, about 300 points?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not spending the equivalent of over 360$ for an army with which I can probably, possibly barely play 500 points skirmishes, and horribly suck at them on top of that. I frankly do not even care much about the latter, it's the price gate that is simply outrageous: That amount of money would earn me at least 1000 points of any other army, possibly much more if I buy used.
> 
> I think it's time to fall back on Dark Elves, I had bought a few of them on impulse back when I was a fickle teen during a summer vacation but only got to paint them... Now, which is 12 years later. Seems like it's time to get into fantasy if I actually want to play the game.
> 
> Call me when there'll be new models and a proper release. Even if it comes around in 2014, I'll hopefully be still around.


Not sure where you are getting your prices at, if they are really that much there or not. Base sisters are only $6 new, repentia $5, arcos $4?. I have also seen some go on Ebay for about $3/model. If you buy a good size army you can get them almost for sure at about $3/model. Most stores at least here in US you can get at least 15% off the new prices too.


----------



## WallWeasels

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here's a question.
> 
> Battle Sister Superior
> May replace her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with
> Chainsword
> Storm bolter
> power sword or combi-flamer, melta or plasma
> 
> So does this mean I can exchange my boltgun for say a Storm bolter and my pistol for a combi-flamer? or why not go all out and take a combi-flamer instead of boltgun and combi-plasma instead of bolt pistol?
> 
> Sisters dual wielding combi bolters ftw :crazy:
> 
> This should also allow you to replace the boltgun with a power weapon and the bolt pistol with a power weapon? Still wont make a difference with S3 but it's an option for a single model :crazy:


Whatever do you mean, space wolves with double storm shield are one of the best units in the game :laugh:


----------



## Revarien

WallWeasels said:


> Whatever do you mean, space wolves with double storm shield are one of the best units in the game :laugh:


I'm a big fan of double Thunderhammer Space Marine Chapter Master


----------



## Mokuren

Suijin said:


> Not sure where you are getting your prices at, if they are really that much there or not. Base sisters are only $6 new, repentia $5, arcos $4?. I have also seen some go on Ebay for about $3/model. If you buy a good size army you can get them almost for sure at about $3/model. Most stores at least here in US you can get at least 15% off the new prices too.


Sorry, my bad, you actually have a point: I forgot about the 3-sisters blister pack, for 13,50€ (~19.50$), this really cuts down the army point total... Assuming I'd need at the very least 7 for 21 models to use as troops, plus one HQ that, assuming a canoness, is 10,50€ (~15$), that means that, in order to have a fieldable army, I would only need to pay... 105€ (~150$), of course this is assuming 1 HQ and 2 troops of 10 sisters each with no upgrades whatsoever, but it's still a third of what I had first imagined.

... It still horribly, terribly sucks forever and ever: Assault to Egressus Ater, the starting set, comes at 78€ (~112$) and it includes- Well, you can go check the official GW site to see what it includes. Spoiler: it's *two* fieldable armies, that include one HQ, two troops, and two more specialized units for each faction.

Moral: I can either choose to start _two_ armies, one of which is *SPACE MARINES*, the best, the most powerful and the most supported in the entire line, or... Spend _more_ and end up with the bare minimum requirements for a SoB army.

Of course, this is all by GW pricings, which are of course very high, but see... The italian wargaming scene isn't as thoroughly developed as you might be used to thinking, in order to find an official GW shop I need to move to another town, and the local gaming store not only basically runs on the blood of M:tG players but is also run by a complete and utter asshole with a history for ripping people off and underpaying his employees.

Okay, maybe I'm just not lucky at all, still, my point stands: if I am to buy all new I need to make a trip (but that's pleasant, plus I get to take friends and the guys at the store next town are pretty cool) and spend way more than I would with any and every other army out there (not cool at all).

I could buy from other stores, but that means only shopping on the internet, and barring my distrust for eBay it's... Still very difficult to find good offers related to SoBs (I tried looking, yes). As for other online stores... I did ask a couple, but that was back when no SoB model could be found at all and we were still deep in rumourland, I might actually have some chances now. Assuming the shipping doesn't rape me, which means that to mitigate I'll have to decide flat out whether to spend a huge chunk of cash in one piece or give up and go with a less frustrating army.


----------



## Suijin

Everything you said is true. I have noticed a tendency for Ebay sellers not liking to ship to Italy (the only country most don't ship to, problems with stuff stolen in the mail I guess). So it might be hard for you to get an army from there it's true. You also have to look over weeks/months to find good prices and/or what you want. Generally it is trustworthy to buy from there and you can get your money back if you never give in to Ebay. Just need to file a claim by their timeline and wait for your money.

And it still ends up fairly expensive it is true.


----------



## Kraban

Well, it seem in the end a bit boring, but fieldable army (though I am still depressed with new canoness), so I'll vote for new codex.

P.S. Are infernos ap 2 as was in C:WH, or ap 1 as in Blood Angels one?


----------



## SilverTabby

I am going to use the new rules. Tonight I'm finishing my second Penitent Engine (despite the price hike - the chances of 16 attacks and the look on my opponents face are just too good to pass up on), I'm ordering my Wyches to convert to Repentia and I'll be writing lists to try out. My basic play style hasn't been altered by this list, and I'm even considering including rhinos now they're cheaper. My seraphim will come out of retirement too. 

Truth be told, this new list has actually reignited my keen. Sure, there's little to no new stuff, but what there is is more options now specialists are cheaper. My death cultists are cheaper too. I can continue to run the same army I did before, but with added bonuses  

Whether I still ever win is another matter, but I'm in it for the fun of the game, and losing well can be just as much fun as winning...


----------



## WallWeasels

I am not sure Tabby who I feel more sad for: You for using penitent engines...or your opponents who are bad enough to let them do anything


----------



## SGMAlice

10 Yea's
11 Nay's

It seems the new Codex it winning. Though not by much. A few undecided and atleast three who are 'going to give it a go' so several could go either way.

I'll get some sort of Conclusion up when a few more people, if any, have their say about this.

Good Luck to all those who have upcoming games using this abomination of a Codex 

SGMAlice


----------



## WallWeasels

It isn't "really" winning though. Most of the nays are ":| Like I can play it at my store anyway, so i'll just deal with it". Also I just noticed your signature changed Alice lol


----------



## SGMAlice

WallWeasels said:


> It isn't "really" winning though. Most of the nays are ":| Like I can play it at my store anyway, so i'll just deal with it". Also I just noticed your signature changed Alice lol


Either way, they will be using the new one.

Not 'Just' no, I have had this one for three weeks or so now.

SGMAlice


----------



## WallWeasels

SGMAlice said:


> Either way, they will be using the new one.
> 
> Not 'Just' no, I have had this one for three weeks or so now.
> 
> SGMAlice


I think i only didn't notice because I see the same overall look and breeze over it  Other than that, they will be and most people who hate the crap out of it will be too. Not many gaming groups will just flatout accept using an older ruleset. I'd enjoy seeing a few people try to say they want to use the previous CSM book :laugh:


----------



## SGMAlice

WallWeasels said:


> I think i only didn't notice because I see the same overall look and breeze over it  Other than that, they will be and most people who hate the crap out of it will be too. Not many gaming groups will just flatout accept using an older ruleset. I'd enjoy seeing a few people try to say they want to use the previous CSM book :laugh:


Indeed, that is not likely to go down too well, even given all the rabid fan boys complaining so much, i however will be and have been since the first WDex was out in stores.

SGMAlice


----------



## WallWeasels

Indeed. I never quite understood the hatred for WDex hate...other than recently being crap. I quite enjoyed the old days of CA stuff and then a yearly CA book  I would like to see WD have more rules in it...just more along the quality of the Vampire Counts stuff (which was pretty decent from what I saw) and not like what we got (or BA got). 
Infact...I would probably say BA got a better treatment than we did :|


----------



## SGMAlice

I have never had any problem with WDex's, only badly written ones, such as this.
yes, i think even BA got a better 'fill in' than SoB's have.

Chapter Approved XD I think i have the 2003 Edition lying about somewhere, the one with the Kroot Mercenaries and Feral Orks lists.

And a Plasma Cannon weilding Terminator... Boo! I want one!

SGMAlice


----------



## Zion

SGMAlice said:


> And a Plasma Cannon weilding Terminator... Boo! I want one!
> 
> SGMAlice


Chaos has those. They're called "Obliterators".


----------



## SGMAlice

Woopee! for Chaos 

I want Terminators with Plasma Cannons
And Kroot with genetic enhancements from chowing down on the enemy.

SGMAlice


----------



## Zion

SGMAlice said:


> Woopee! for Chaos
> 
> I want Terminators with Plasma Cannons
> And Kroot with genetic enhancements from chowing down on the enemy.
> 
> SGMAlice


The Kroot one is easy. Use the Dark Eldar codex and focus on units with Pain Tokens for a count-as army!


----------



## SGMAlice

Zion said:


> The Kroot one is easy. Use the Dark Eldar codex and focus on units with Pain Tokens for a count-as army!


Or just use the Kroot Mercenary Codex from CA - 2003...

Though that is an interesting idea.

SGMAlice


----------



## Zion

SGMAlice said:


> Or just use the Kroot Mercenary Codex from CA - 2003...
> 
> Though that is an interesting idea.
> 
> SGMAlice


And it'd have the bonus of being in the current edition too!


----------



## WallWeasels

SGMAlice said:


> Or just use the Kroot Mercenary Codex from CA - 2003...
> 
> Though that is an interesting idea.
> 
> SGMAlice


I have 3 of the CA books. I actually don't dislike CA:SoB all that much. I would certainly prefer playing that version than the new one :x 2002/2003/2004
Oh god even the armoured company list *shudder* and even the ork hunter "they can have shootas and sluggas" IG list :laugh:
Although you'd have to deal with every sister (but celestians) being BS3 and having to buy 10 point preachers in order to be faithful :x But you'd get I6 4 attacking seraphim on the charge though


----------



## SilverTabby

WallWeasels said:


> I am not sure Tabby who I feel more sad for: You for using penitent engines...or your opponents who are bad enough to let them do anything


What can I say, I'm a sucker for the fluffy option :wink:

And in my current gaming circle, only one of my opponents will look at the Engines, smile knowingly and deal with them accordingly, namely stringing them up by their underpants and hanging them out to dry. The newbies will catch on quickly, but not until I've had a couple of games where they will do horrific (hopefully) damage... Plus I'm having fun making them 

I imagine my Repentia will meet a similar fate, but again - I like the models I'm using, so making them will make up for losing with them :grin:

This game has always been more about the hobby than the winning for me. Doesn't matter how much the Nid codex apparently sucks, I love gribblies with big teeth and claws. Doesn't matter that this update is widely considered to suck, I love the Sisters models and look/feel of the army. I don't collect armies because their rules are good. I collect because I like the army


----------



## Lordgimpet

Put me down as a Nay, and a long time sister player.
I'm not willing to judge this until I have used it at least 3 times to make sure it does fail or I just fail as a commander, I will even try the list MCC posted a few pages back but add 2 more troops to make its 1750ish, though I will use my repentia as DCA as I'm not going to buy more of those.

The BA dex was fail just like this one appears to be however I'm starting to think the mass disappointment is more as a result of the time it has taken to get even this, as well as how good the last few codes releases have been have set the expectation bar far higher compared to when the BA, WD release came out.



> This game has always been more about the hobby than the winning for me. Doesn't matter how much the Nid codex apparently sucks, I love gribblies with big teeth and claws. Doesn't matter that this update is widely considered to suck, I love the Sisters models and look/feel of the army. I don't collect armies because their rules are good. I collect because I like the army


I'm in that same boat there


----------



## WallWeasels

Well more or less your opinions on the ruleset are pretty moot. You'd stomach any and anything just to play your sisters because, as you said, you just like the models. I'd like to say this but I also see 40k as a game (because it is). It is both a hobby and a game. Thus, as a game, I prefer to not gimp myself for the sake of liking something and to this degree I'd like to play my sisters...but I also don't want to play my sisters. Rules-wise there is nothing spectacular about it. I personally feel the new faith, as a mechanic, really strips out the heart of the "feel". Its boring and fairly unoriginal and leaves faith powers in the seat of "oh they felt better so they did it" rather than actual forces of change. 
They might stay as an "unserious" army but be shelved at the point when any real competition comes around.


----------



## rasolyo

I hate to add to the already grim atmosphere, but does this mean that the SoB Rumours Roundup is going to be removed? I mean, the codex _is_ out already for some, and soon for the rest.

We could probably move this to General Discussions and change this to "Codex: Sisters of Battle Support Group".


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> I hate to add to the already grim atmosphere, but does this mean that the SoB Rumours Roundup is going to be removed? I mean, the codex _is_ out already for some, and soon for the rest.
> 
> We could probably move this to General Discussions and change this to "Codex: Sisters of Battle Support Group".


But what about living in denial about this update and collecting the next codex's rumors?


----------



## boreas

What update? Any mention of an update will be smacked by my real copy of Codex: Witch Hunters 

Phil


----------



## ashikenshin

Yeah, didn't like this update too much. Gonna use witch hunters codex instead.


----------



## rasolyo

And I quote from Cruddace's win in the WD matchup against Nids:

"Thanks to their faith in the Emperor, and some very jammy dice rolls, the Sisters of Battle have salvaged a little pride for me after having lost to Jeremy earlier on with my Tomb Kings. However, it was by no means a certain victory."

Wow, so I guess if I want to ensure future wins with the new codex, I'd have to acquire some of the aforementioned jammy rolls.

Christ, I don't think he even knows how to use the army.

:suicide:


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> And I quote from Cruddace's win in the WD matchup against Nids:
> 
> "Thanks to their faith in the Emperor, and some very jammy dice rolls, the Sisters of Battle have salvaged a little pride for me after having lost to Jeremy earlier on with my Tomb Kings. However, it was by no means a certain victory."
> 
> Wow, so I guess if I want to ensure future wins with the new codex, I'd have to acquire some of the aforementioned jammy rolls.
> 
> Christ, I don't think he even knows how to use the army.
> 
> :suicide:


Wait....you want the codex's author to actually know how to use the army? :shok:

I'm just kidding of course. I know that he didn't understand the army well based on how he wrote the codex.


----------



## WallWeasels

Oh whats more hilarious...in the battle report his dominions have 4 flamers (with 5 models)...that later are turned into meltas....then later into heavy flamers. *cough* I sure hope my copy of the WD allows for dominions to do this too.


----------



## Sworn Radical

WallWeasels said:


> Oh whats more hilarious...in the battle report his dominions have 4 flamers (with 5 models)...that later are turned into meltas....then later into heavy flamers. *cough* I sure hope my copy of the WD allows for dominions to do this too.


Oblitosistas ?!?!


----------



## WallWeasels

Basically yes. Also I just noticed GK's FAQ made their condemnor bolter into our shitty version. So at least we didn't get the crappy version and they got the fairly decent one. The battle reports army list was pretty hilarious to say the least.


----------



## Suijin

One mark of a good codex is the ability to build a couple different types of lists from it:
Mech
Dreadnought
Foot
Deepstriking
First turn assault
Shooting
etc.

One list is what? a razorback spam equivalant? Immolators are more expensive, fewer weapons, shorter range, not fast, and I'm not sure how many you can actually take in an army rules-wise.

A foot slogging list is definitely possible, but range and wasted turns moving are going to kill it's effectiveness.

Seems like not really any choice in HQs either here, you take St. Celestine and Jacobus.

My views right now on units
Good Units:
St. Celestine (Good and cheap)
Uriah Jacobus (Cheapish and good rules +1A, reroll hits in assault, and FNP)
Battle Conclaves (DCA with S4 5A/model on a charge with Uriah Jacobus)
Rhinos (SM cheap and 6++ save)
Dominions (Scout, TL weapons)
Seraphim (reroll wounds on shooting, 2 pistol shots)
Retributors (Semi-cheap, good weapons and rending)
Exorcists

Bad Units:
Priest (too expensive, and no real benefit)
Canoness (too expensive)
Command Squads (need to take Canoness)
Celestians (Expensive)

OK Units, but very hard to use effectively:
Penitent Engines (Very good in assaults and with 2 heavy Flamers, but foot slogging and easily killed)
Sisters Repentia (you need to get the charge in an assault, and you need to keep them from dying by being shot)

Neutral Opinion:
Immolators (OK units, but expensive)
Arch Confessor Kyrinov (Mostly just due to 3rd choice in HQ)
Battle Sisters troops (meh, not bad, not good, OK price)
Confessor (expensive but may be worth getting another Battle Conclave)


I guess I feeling pretty limited is by biggest concern by the 2 HQ choices and then the only troop choice possible. After that you get to pick from the other "good" units, or try to get something else going. Other armies get other troop choices based on HQ type or just actually having more choices of troops.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I will probably move this thread over to the rumours roundup once I've been to GD UK and interrogated Cruddace if he dares to show his face there. It will all depend on whether or not I can get an answer to if we will be seeing the real sisters codex within a year. I seriously doubt it to be honest, perhaps Sisters will beat the DE with fewest releases in the history of 40k.


----------



## WallWeasels

Yep. Will be great to see anything you find at this years GD. If you put up another series of videos I'll certainly watch them 

Personally I hold by my theory on the necron delay + suddenly sisters rumors changed to "WDex" from "plastics + codex" = rushed "codex" to fill gap. Which makes me certainly hope we get a replacement soon...but I bet GW will milk this "new content" and "update to 5th edition" until 6th at minimum (next summer to match anniversary).


----------



## [email protected]

Well, I got my wd yesterday and appaarently no one plays 40k at my flgs anymore. Sigh. 

one of our founding players is going to bring orks next thurs to play me so ill try to sound off on the result.

J

Posted from phone sorry bout typos. I gots fat thumbs.


----------



## Inq_Eljer

Sisters were my very first official army back in 2004 with the Witch Hunter codex. I'll stick with that until I actuallly get around to taking pics and selling the army. I think I've had enough GW "fun" and I'll be moving along to another system. No way I'm using the abomination they call an update.

If I get the nostalgia bug I'll keep my Grey Knights for an occasional side game. 

Now selling sisters, tau and Iron Warriors.


----------



## Majere613

Well, this is all very depressing. I've not had the pleasure of the new WD yet, but by the looks of it the most fun I'll be having is playing 'spot the mistake in the Battle Report'.

It's a real shame that the Command squad is capped so small and the Canoness is so meh, since the idea of Relentless Multi-Meltas is actually sort of fun. I'm sure that if I get the rest of my old Sisters painted, I'll be trying to sic a couple of Penitent Engines on people, probably by using some sort of Rhinowall shenanigans, because lets face it, if they do get hold of something, comedy will ensue.

Does seem like we got Cruddaced, though. At least I can set Celestine on the bloody Doom. BTW, with my group 'nids win a hell of a lot, not least because of that thing. I bounced a Deathwing Terminator Squad, a Vindicator and an entire Crusader off it for two turns in my last game and did precisely nothing to it. CRUDDAAACE!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I still have about 30 blisters of sisters models, I will be bringing them all to Games Day to return them for money. I have tons of blisters I will be bringing there, most to exchange for finecast but other metal models because I simply hate metal.


----------



## WallWeasels

Can you do that?  Thats a ton of blisters lol


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If they are still unopened and I can provide a receipt there should be no problem.


----------



## WallWeasels

Ah receipt. Wow, diligent receipt keeping  Please record their faces when you do this


----------



## hells

battle report was interesting, love the exorcist firing all 6 missiles hitting and wounding with all, some amazing luck i never get :/

on the dominions, they were fielded in a rhino, and when they shot at the trygon it said meltas and flamers so it is rather confusing what is in the squad since the pic shows 5 sisters 4 with flamers /shrug

part i love is how they advertise the repressor from forge world but didnt give it rules in the codex, how hard is it really to put the rules into the codex? most of the dex was copy pasta anyway so he would of been used to it :/


----------



## Synack

anyone else notice that in the unit the summary, the St Celestian has the IC rule, but in the army list section, she doesn't.

What a crap crap attempt at a codex


----------



## boreas

hells said:


> battle report was interesting, love the exorcist firing all 6 missiles hitting and wounding with all, some amazing luck i never get :/
> 
> on the dominions, they were fielded in a rhino, and when they shot at the trygon it said meltas and flamers so it is rather confusing what is in the squad since the pic shows 5 sisters 4 with flamers /shrug
> 
> part i love is how they advertise the repressor from forge world but didnt give it rules in the codex, how hard is it really to put the rules into the codex? most of the dex was *copy pasta* anyway so he would of been used to it :/


This post is full of truths. My exorcists are known to never shoot 6 missiles when needed, but always when I'm shooting at some single model...

Adding the repressor would have been a very nice thing, so GW made sure they didn't put it in :wink:

And yes, that document-that-not-my-new-dex feels like a pile of pasta!!! :laugh:

Phil


----------



## Majere613

So, having now got the WD, updated thoughts:

Not putting the Repressor in the WD list was fail, but not fatal fail. They do at least point you at the FW website, and Imperial Armour Vol 2 has a free PDF update with the Repressor in it. A six-fire-point Rhino with a pintle flamer adds a fair amount of utility to Sisters.

I'm interested in the Command Squad. The Canoness is clearly overpriced, but the Command squad with three potentially Relentless Multi-Meltas is quite cheap. The Canoness and Dialogus are your first wound-sponges, and you could also add a Preacher or two to the squad, though a 45-point model with 1W is a pricey soaker at best. Assuming Acts can be used by embarked squads, a Command Squad in a Repressor can potentially put out a fair bit of fire. (This assumes a Relentless squad could fire the MM out of a moving Repressor. I see no reason why not)

They've [redacted] Heavy Flamers in the eyesocket, in general. Way too expensive for the risk in using them and the Immolator has lost its 12" move with them. Only a Scouting Dominion Immolator or possibly a Penitent Engine is likely to get much use out of them now.

Removing Blessed Weapons and Jump Packs for the Canoness, coupled with uber-cheap Celestine, seems to be a blatant attempt to sell more Living Saints. Just field your Jump-Packing Canoness as a Saint, don't give GW any more money for that play please.

I'm not yet as convinced as some as to the practicality of the Jacobus+DCA unit. Yes, it kicks ass, but no assault transport means at least one turn of horribly vulnerable hanging about on foot. It seems best used as a counter-assault support unit.

Rage still kills Repentia, since they can't start in a transport. Could you 'make' them get into an empty transport by placing it within 2" of the end of their move, and closer to the enemy? Seems iffy.

Finally, that 'battle report' is an abomination. No army list, clearly breaks at least one of the rules (too many flamers in the Dominions) and boneheaded decisions (Jacobus with Arco-Flagellents? WTF?) 

About the best thing about all this is that it does feel like a stop-gap list. Hopefully a proper Sisters book will happen when they figure out the plastics problem.


----------



## Kraban

Well, my exorcists very often shoot 6 missiles, but when they do, they score about 2 hits that fail to wound:biggrin:

I still think repressors are overpriced. I tried them couple of times and decided that they are almost no better then common rhino. 

If St. Celestine is indeed not IC, it is the unswer, why she is so cheap and why she has "fleet" special rule.

Relentless m-meltas are good, but stil you don't have Imagifer or sergeant, so you will have unreliable single 4+ roll.


----------



## Kraban

Majere613 said:


> I'm not yet as convinced as some as to the practicality of the Jacobus+DCA unit. Yes, it kicks ass, but no assault transport means at least one turn of horribly vulnerable hanging about on foot. It seems best used as a counter-assault support unit.


You are right, but sisters lack counter-assault unit. In the same time it is rather cheap and not that vulnerable with 5++ and FNP


----------



## Majere613

Kraban said:


> I still think repressors are overpriced. I tried them couple of times and decided that they are almost no better then common rhino.


Really? For 15 points more than a Rhino, you get a pintle Heavy Flamer, seven Fire Points and a 'dozer blade. That sounds like a bargain to me. There is a minor issue in that the IA update says six of the Fire Points are for 'basic weapons' which may preclude firing meltaguns out of them, and certainly seems to rule out Heavy Weapons. But even then it's nice and IMHO kicks the shinola out of the new Immolator.



Kraban said:


> Relentless m-meltas are good, but stil you don't have Imagifer or sergeant, so you will have unreliable single 4+ roll.


True enough, though you can take a Simulacrum for the re-roll. The omission of a Superior sounds like Cruddace falling asleep at the keyboard again.


----------



## Kraban

Majere613 said:


> Really? For 15 points more than a Rhino, you get a pintle Heavy Flamer, seven Fire Points and a 'dozer blade. That sounds like a bargain to me. There is a minor issue in that the IA update says six of the Fire Points are for 'basic weapons' which may preclude firing meltaguns out of them, and certainly seems to rule out Heavy Weapons. But even then it's nice and IMHO kicks the shinola out of the new Immolator.


I hate new Immolators too). May be it is my game style, but I've never got chance to fire from repressors HF or fire points. They have too thin armour to serve as fortresses, only as walls. I'd better spend that points and by HF to fire from rhino or simply fire with two flamers. Still it is only my opinion. 



Majere613 said:


> True enough, though you can take a Simulacrum for the re-roll. The omission of a Superior sounds like Cruddace falling asleep at the keyboard again.


Well, as I understand, command squad consists of 5 models only, so you have dialogus, hospitalier, and 3 m-meltas or 2 m-meltas and imagifer. Do you think that's enough fire power?

In addition, for the same points you can take for example seraphims with 5 infernos for squad.


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## Majere613

Kraban said:


> Well, as I understand, command squad consists of 5 models only, so you have dialogus, hospitalier, and 3 m-meltas or 2 m-meltas and imagifer. Do you think that's enough fire power?
> 
> In addition, for the same points you can take for example seraphims with 5 infernos for squad.


The HQ entry doesn't mention an Imagifer, only that 'One Celestian' can have a Simulacrum/ Blessed Banner and 'Any Celestian' may replace her Bolter with another weapon. So one Celstian can have the banner and the MM 

Sadly, Seraphim are limited to only two Seraphim with IP, the Superior can't get one. Mind you, that's still four shots, or two IP and two Hand Flamers. Seraphim certainly seem like one of the better units in the new 'dex, I must say.


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## WallWeasels

As if you want to pay those points :| Delicate squad thats function is unreliable at best.


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## Kraban

Majere613 said:


> Sadly, Seraphim are limited to only two Seraphim with IP, the Superior can't get one. Mind you, that's still four shots, or two IP and two Hand Flamers. Seraphim certainly seem like one of the better units in the new 'dex, I must say.


That leaves us with only 4 pistols, but we still have a c-melta option. As a result squad with IP loses only in range (about 3") then compared to old dominions. And with re-rollable hand flamers it is even better. In addition squad has 2 wounds with bolt pistols. In addition it is rather hard to hide forcely disembarked troops in HTH with seraphims due to low number of models and "hit an run" USR.

Yesterday melt down two battlewagons with them and like them now even more:biggrin:


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## Majere613

WallWeasels said:


> As if you want to pay those points :| Delicate squad thats function is unreliable at best.


Do you mean for the Seraphim, or for the Command Squad? I wouldn't say either was all that expensive, given the amount of melta that's available. You don't need to shoot up many tanks or Terminators before you've made your points back.

As far as reliability goes, the Seraphim are pretty reliable with their re-roll and Superior, especially if you load up on two pairs of one weapon. You have to add the Simulacrum to the command squad to get a re-roll there, of course, but if you fail at a critical point there's nothing to stop you spending another point and trying again. (I assume this is the case- I've seen nothing that says otherwise)

And of course, the test for Endless Crusade is taken before the squad moves, so if it doesn't come off you can always decide not to move at all.


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## TeDasCuen

Hi all!

If you don't want read complains and rants, please don't continue reading this post. I'm sad, frustrated and I don't have any other place to say what I feel.

Many people already wrote the new SoB codex problems but I wanted to wait to get the WD and read it calmly.

Yesterday I gone happily to take my WD copy to my GW local store and I thought:

"I will not judge the codex with everything seen at forum, I'll read it and I will draw my own conclusions."

It started bad; the magazine article of codex was full of errata and some parts that had not been translated from English into Spanish.

"Why they forgot to translate this?"
"You know, it's summer, people are on summer break, thinking in beach and girls…"

Suddenly an errata catch my attention, at the beginning of the codex they refer to Sisters of Battle as the Necron army list.

"Necrons? Says Necrons! Seriously, what the hell are these people thinking about?" (facepalm)

In all the SoB units along the codex in the wargear options appear:
-Bolter or heavy flamer… X points
"Oh! What a cheap heavy flamer! A moment, below heavy flamer appears again? How expensive!"
When must be:
-Heavy bolter or flamer… X points


Let's continue.
Canoness:

I started reading the Canoness wargear options. I read and reread them many times, but as more I read, the Blessed Weapon would not appear, as already read here in the forum. But I refused to believe it.

"Why? If the Canoness act of faith is thinked for CC, Why there are no CC weapons?"

Let me explain: you can put an energy weapon, but with only S3 is not a useful option; you can put an Eviscerator, but then… an act of faith that gives I+1? Useless.

"Maybe they have made the Canoness act of faith thinking in Celestian Sisters of the Command Squad if you get pistol and chainsword. Oh no, wait. But if they have an act of faith that gives them relentless, so get heavy weapons ... Hmm, makes no sense. I don't understand."
"If I want to play a CC Canoness I must to get Saint Celestine?"

"And, Where are the Letanies of Faith, the Cloak, the…? Where is everything?" (sadness)


Let's continue.
Confessors:

15 points less than Jacobus and also you must to buy his wargear, while Jacobus is already equipped and gives extra rules to his unit.

"Who goes to put a Confessor that isn't Jacobus?"



Ecclesiarchy Preacher:

Nice copy&paste from IG codex.

"Oh! But He has 1 more point of I than that the IG!"
"Oooh! But He has more wargear options than that the IG"
"One moment! The Eviscerator is more expensive! Is it because it's 'better' to use an I1 weapon having I4 than having I3?" (facepalm)
"Why I will get a Preacher with Eviscerator, W1 and A1 if for fewer points I can get 4 more sisters Repentia with A2 each?"



Celestian Squad:

"Without CC wargear options and an act of faith that gives S+1… The fearless should be for the unit to die more quickly in CC. So the game is faster." (facepalm)



Inmolator

"What? I don't go to get a vehicle with only capacity 6, AV11, that now can't move 12" and fire and that plus Extra Armour costs as a Retributor Squad with 3 or 4 Heavy bolters or as a Penitent Engine."

"Wait a moment. But if the Blood Angels Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy flamers plus Extra Armour is cheaper, fast vehicle and you can move 12" and fire!!!!!!!!!!!! Ward Marines" (facepalm)



Seraphim Squad:

Here is the funny part of the codex, not everything was going to be sad.

"I can change one pistol of the Superior sister by a chainsword FOR FREE! Great! CALL NOW!" (Epic-facepalm!!)



Miniatures:

I started buying miniatures during the "long" era of the C:WH 3ed.

First came the Web codex PDF trim: I couldn't use my GK, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors and their retinues.

A few days later the second trim, a Web codex PDF update: I couldn't use my GI.

And finally came the WD Codex and suffered a third trim of figures: I couldn't use my Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, half of the retinue miniatures, my 4 Officio Assassinorum Agents and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.

"No! My loved Callidus!"

What I do now with so many miniatures that I can no longer use?

"Use the C:GK", some will think. But… NEVER! Thanks to the great work for Matt Ward done backgrounds who happily kill Sisters of Battle, I have put aside the codex and I will not use GK never.

And I will not buy Jacobus and none "new" figure for the new SoB codex. I'll use the "counts as…" and put any Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor like Jacobus and my Callidus and other Officio Assassinorum Agents as Death Cult Assassins.


Well, I'm tired. perhaps I make a second complains part. 


So I can only say goodbye and to thank to the quality control department of GW without them we couldn't buy expensive WD magazines full of erratas and untranslated parts as well as Finecast miniatures that never should have left the factory. Thanks to Matt Ward for contributing with his backgrounds to the elimination of SoB army. Thanks to Cruddace, because otherwise it could not sell GW all these miniatures of Saint Celestine and Jacobus catching dust in warehouses, and to make easier for everyone mono-list codices, as well as we don't have to bother deciding which units or not to get for our armies. Thanks to WD magazine and their great work month after month with battle reports where the army that is promoted always wins with each time less subtle cheats; and… well who cares, the pictures are beautiful.


----------



## Kraban

Your words are full of sad truth, but still now I see more variants for my army (not to mention that old variants were tested many many times). I don't like that GW spend so little time on the codex, but still it seems playable after all.

P.S. Why you don't want to buy a miniature after you used it's picture as avatar?


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## Kraban

Oh, just noticed that in IA Razorback with linked m-meltas costs 40 points. And we have the same stuff for 80 pts. Nice)


----------



## WallWeasels

Majere613 said:


> Do you mean for the Seraphim, or for the Command Squad? I wouldn't say either was all that expensive, given the amount of melta that's available. You don't need to shoot up many tanks or Terminators before you've made your points back.
> 
> As far as reliability goes, the Seraphim are pretty reliable with their re-roll and Superior, especially if you load up on two pairs of one weapon. You have to add the Simulacrum to the command squad to get a re-roll there, of course, but if you fail at a critical point there's nothing to stop you spending another point and trying again. (I assume this is the case- I've seen nothing that says otherwise)
> 
> And of course, the test for Endless Crusade is taken before the squad moves, so if it doesn't come off you can always decide not to move at all.


No retrying faith is currently a pretty wonky loophole that will be FAQ'd (as per BA getting updated when put online). Despite that, I do not think it is possible because you can only attempt an AoF before you have acted. By trying an act of faith, you are performing an action with the unit and thus possibly losing the ability to retry the same act. 

Regardless, the commands quad is mediocre for what it does and I'd rather not pay 20 points for a "please kill me" model. You see the issue with the ocmmand squad is that it has no wounds to give. No models are not important when you upgrade the base celestians. The command squad, really, is just a walking 12" reroll LD banner that will do nothing the rest of the game. Any other use is just hampering for ineffective units for their cost.
Jacobus + DCA/Crusaders + Celestine will be the "functional" HQ for any remotely "competitive" Sisters list.

edit: please do not double post :x
[edit2] TeDasCuen: pretty easily summarizes my problems. Although I would add:
Faith: lolwut? Turn a pretty consistant (for the past 3 editions) army mechanic isn't an individual squad mechanic while also reducing the effects
6++: I love how units costs actually "reflect" our special rule. Its like space wolves and blood angels don't pay for their tactical squads to have their army-wide special rules...yet our BSS are 1 point more (with increased costs on top of that) and worse! As if a 6++ will save me from anything important. I've already heard people give reports were a "6++ saved my ____!!!" and just sigh. 
Penitents: Oh boy cruddace strikes again. Another "should cost less" unit gets a buff and cruddace actually increases ts points cost. Despite not fixing the already inheriant problems, nerfs its movement speed at the sametime...and still heavy? What a joke
Repentia: Still crap, rage is a useless mechanic that GW thinks is workable because they play it rather casually instead of strict (as it should be). Their AoF is useless because it cannot be used defensively (when charged).

I laugh my ass off at the immolator. More proof GW only kept the name so they can gimp its rules while not "being a razorback". if it was a razorback they'd have to try to make it useful.

[edit3]on a note of seraphim: while pretty useful they'll ultimately only exist to hope celestine doesn't prematurely die. I will never consider taking more than one squad at a time and the rest of the FA should be dedicated to 5 to 10 man squads of dominions. If you aren't taking Seraphim then you will be taking 3 squads of dominions...pretty much always.


----------



## Meshakhad

I was disappointed by the codex. The lack of wargear (especially for the Canoness) and _increasing_ the point value of Battle Sisters really irritated me.

That said, it's still playable. It isn't horribly broken. I still plan to build a Sisters army.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Kraban said:


> Your words are full of sad truth, but still now I see more variants for my army (not to mention that old variants were tested many many times). I don't like that GW spend so little time on the codex, but still it seems playable after all.
> 
> P.S. Why you don't want to buy a miniature after you used it's picture as avatar?


Hi Kraban. Thanks for read.

I like Saint Celestine and I have the miniature for some years. About my "I don't want to buy miniatures", I mean to all the "new" entries of the "new" codex. I don't have Jacobus and Kyrinov, and I only have one priest that I never used. I have all the miniatures for all the options of the C:WH 3ed. Now tones of useless metal.

Why I don't want to buy Jacobus?

Is metal.
Is an old metal miniature.
Do I said already that I hate metal miniatures?
And because I'm really hurt by GW for make this *********** trimmed codex. In my opinion: A codex made for a guy that don't know nothing about SoB and that has transform them in IG with power armours and boltguns.
I don't want to waste more money in a company that mistreat my SoB army because isn't Space Marines or Eldars.

I prefer don't play special characters in my games. A SoB force leaded for a Canoness encouraging to her sisters to fight in name of the Emperor is really awesome for me.

I hold Saint Celestine for "special occasions", a living saint is hard to see. In each game, special characters full the table like an all stars party: Eldrad, Dante, Mephiston, The Sanguinor, Logan and a really big etc. And think that the W40k missions are "little" confrontations, perhaps of a big battle. I usually say: what the hell are doing Mephiston and Eldrad in a 1500 point objective mission? The objective can be a lost spark plug of a dreadnought!!! (facepalm). I prefer to see epic heroes in epic battles, Apocalypse in example.


----------



## Kraban

TeDasCuen said:


> I prefer don't play special characters in my games. A SoB force leaded for a Canoness encouraging to her sisters to fight in name of the Emperor is really awesome for me.


New canoness was a hard blow for me either. I always thought that special characters have their own point of view  and never added them.

Nevertheless I'll buy Jacobus, but not because of new dex, just because it is funny old man, whom I want to see in my collection :biggrin:


----------



## boreas

I highly recommend the Uriah Jacobus mini, even if metal. It's just an awesome model. I was fielding him has a priest with a shotgun in my WH armies. Useless, but so cool! Plus, there's never enough occasion to say "This is my BOOMSTICK!".

Phil


----------



## Majere613

WallWeasels said:


> No retrying faith is currently a pretty wonky loophole that will be FAQ'd (as per BA getting updated when put online). Despite that, I do not think it is possible because you can only attempt an AoF before you have acted. By trying an act of faith, you are performing an action with the unit and thus possibly losing the ability to retry the same act.


I think we're starting to get well outside of the remit of the thread now, so I'm off to other pastures. But I will say that I disagree with this interpretation. It very clearly states when each AoF is attempted, and attempting one is not considered any sort of 'action'. So long as it's the Assault Phase and you have a Faith Point, you can try Hand of the Emperor. (For example) You fail, you blew the point. That doesn't change it being the Assault phase, so if you have points left there's no reason why you can't try again. Same goes for every other Act. The Faith Points provide the limiting factor and prevent any abuses.


----------



## Azezel

WallWeasels said:


> the rest of the FA should be dedicated to 5 to 10 man squads of dominions. If you aren't taking Seraphim then you will be taking 3 squads of dominions...pretty much always.


Okay, I'll bite.

Why would I ever take Dominions now, when basic Battle Sisters carry just as many special weapons, are cheaper and Scoring? And don't say 'twin linked' because we both know that's not worth ten points and Scoring status.

I'm not saiyng Seraphim are good, they're clearly mediocre at best (Where the hell are my meltabombs!?). I'm just saying that Dominions aren't worth it at all now.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> Why would I ever take Dominions now, when basic Battle Sisters carry just as many special weapons, are cheaper and Scoring? And don't say 'twin linked' because we both know that's not worth ten points and Scoring status.
> 
> I'm not saiyng Seraphim are good, they're clearly mediocre at best (Where the hell are my meltabombs!?). I'm just saying that Dominions aren't worth it at all now.


Cause Battle Sisters need to be taken in squads of ten while dominions can be taken in squads of 5 and have scouting, give them two melta guns and a combi melta.


----------



## Majere613

Azezel said:


> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> Why would I ever take Dominions now, when basic Battle Sisters carry just as many special weapons, are cheaper and Scoring? And don't say 'twin linked' because we both know that's not worth ten points and Scoring status.
> 
> I'm not saiyng Seraphim are good, they're clearly mediocre at best (Where the hell are my meltabombs!?). I'm just saying that Dominions aren't worth it at all now.


10 Dominions can have 4 Special Weapons, plus a Superior with a Combi-Weapon, and have Scouts. Their Act works just fine on the bolters too, making them a pretty versatile unit. Now that Seraphim can have 4 Inferno Pistol shots, there's less need for Meltabombs, though the Superior can take them.

I think we need to take a little step back here and see this new 'Codex' from the other direction. If we think it's bad because of the options we've lost and the odd costings, think what it's going to look like to the people we play against if we embrace the Cruddace Consolation Prizes.

Imagine, for example, the reaction of a Blood Angels player in a Kill Points game, who has Celestine butcher his Sanguinary Guard, eat his Death Company for seconds, and then finally die only to get up the next turn and go over and dice his Devastators. Consider what he's going to say when he sees that model cost little more than 5 Tactical Marines. It won't be 'Oh, you got a rough deal with that new Codex, old chap.'

This is the real problem with Cruddexes- if you take the whole army list as a challenge to make the ultimate list o' death, using every nasty broken little trick it has, it works just fine. Remove the units which on their own are clearly broken, and you tend to end up with a seriously sub-par army. The Doom of Malan'tai and Celestine are direct counterpoints to Tyranids that can't assault into cover, and borked, non-fast Immolators.

Here's hoping his remaining time at GW is brief, and his successor is handy with a wrench.


----------



## WallWeasels

Because Dominions still have the same amount of weapons...just not at 5 models. Which is fien considering you want those weapons to live more than 1 wound before you lose a melta. Battle sisters are pretty mediocre with DG and they'll just be spamming wounds in order to kill anything anyway.


----------



## Zion

I played my first game (1,500 Points) yesterday and while I won (I was the only one holding an objective and nearly tabled my opponent's Blood Angels army) it was largely due to my opponent not having enough anti-tank in his list to kill my Exorcists (I ran two) or shut down my Immolaters (tried out the Heavy Bolter ones but found I was missing the Heavy Flamers when his Death Company was mobbed up near one of them). My opponent also had some less than perfect wound allocation usage (on the few times I managed to give him melta/rending wounds with normal ones), and made some bad prioritization choices. Add in some dang fine lucky rolls on my part with some horrible ones on his and that's pretty much how I managed to eke out a win on this one. It was less about the awesomeness of my army list and more about dumb luck in the end for me.

Anytime I got into combat with anything but my Repentia (which helped wipe a squad of his Blood Angels) the unit was toast. Granted him running a unit of Death Company (with Limartes), and both of his tact squads succumbing to the Red Thirst don't help any, but even outside of combat with massed shooting I was looking at needing two squads worth of fire power to drop one 10 man squad. And honestly that just isn't points effective. 

As for Faith Points, I got them off less than half the time. Any unit that took casualties usually died the same turn, or had so many wounds laid on it that the Superior had to take multiple armor saves along with the squad, which means she also died. So I was usually testing on a 4+. Even with the Simulacrum in my troops I often failed the rerolls. The turns I needed faith, I didn't get enough to go around, and the turns that I got a lot of points I found myself not using them all. For a system that generates a fair amount of points a turn (roughly 15 in a 5 turn game on average) I found most of the powers to be nice bonuses, but nothing to rely on. So anyone who wants to run Command Squads, don't bother relying on that Relentless. It won't get you anywhere if you do.

Overall I found the new rules to be playable, but I'm going to need a new army now for league and tournament play so that I can actually run the chance of winning against my opponent's harder lists.

I had a friend offer the idea that the new 'dex is GW stripping the Sisters down to their base mechanics and it'll be the core of what we're likely to see in the future, which might not be so bad with some tweaks in the future. Namely army wide faith powers need to come back (Divine Guidance needs to be army wide or else we stand no real chance against TEQ heavy lists, especially ones with Storm Shields), something to bump survivability of the army up, perhaps one that temporarily improves I saves in a unit by 2), the ability to use faith during the entire turn (not just mine) is sorely needed with the close combat faith powers to make the useable and a way to boost faith point production is sorely needed. At 1,500 points 6 faith points a turn (when you roll it) isn't too bad, but add in another 500 points worth of units and it runs dry too quickly.

The loss of Eviscerators in most of my army didn't hurt too much but to have effective anti-tank/anti-walker on the field at the moment you might as well fill your Elite slots with Repentia to get enough to effectively pop those vehicles and Dreadnoughts. I'm not saying we can't shoot them off the table (I did that today to a Rhino and two Baal Dakka Preds) but against mech heavy armies we're going to be hurting. And against FAST mech heavy armies I just don't see a good answer outside of Exorcist spam.

But then again I'm not an uber player either. I will admit to losing a lot of games. But then again I tend to play old, outdated, and often bland, codices (I have a habit of falling in love with models or fluff and choosing armies around that, then getting my backside handed to me until I'm sick of it, then moving on).

EDIT: I apologize if this post was a bit rambling. I woke up at three in the morning and couldn't sleep so I thought I'd try and post my feelings on the new dex having given it a try.

TL;DR: New dex is okay, but I'm not hinging winning any league or tournament games on it.


----------



## JelloSea

Considering you could put a melta gun in every squad and assuming we still get str 8 ap1 rockets I dont think teq will be that big of a deal.


----------



## Zion

JelloSea said:


> Considering you could put a melta gun in every squad and assuming we still get str 8 ap1 rockets I dont think teq will be that big of a deal.


Even with that in my old lists large numbers of those units can and do survive impressive amounts of firepower. Additionally, storm shield/thunder hammer TEQs make the issue worse for us with the 3++.

Furthermore, when you roll 1D6 shots on the Exorcists, sure you average 3-4 shots a turn over a large number of games but you're just as likely to roll a 1 as you are anything else, and I've had plenty of turns were low number of shot rolls have led to little to no effect with TEQs because the volume of fire just isn't there to make them fail enough Invul saves.

To make matters worse now you can't rely on attempting to get the invunl save faith power off to get decent protection from weapons that decimate your armor to keep the squad from getting wiped.

As I said before, it's playable, but it is a long shot from being able to handle TEQ heavy armies, Grey Knights, Deathwing, and adding to that list anything better than us in CC. And yes, when faced with a properly tooled CC army list, you WILL be in close combat with them and you WILL die.


EDIT: For the record a lone Melta per squad might kill 1 TEQ per squad shooting assuming everything goes in your favor. That means you need to roll to hit, to wound, and they need to fail an Invul save. Even if you kill that one though, there are usually a fair number left who just shoot and assault you the next turn anyways. Oh look, dead Sisters squad.


----------



## [email protected]

Zion said:


> EDIT: For the record a lone Melta per squad might kill 1 TEQ per squad shooting assuming everything goes in your favor. That means you need to roll to hit, to wound, and they need to fail an Invul save. Even if you kill that one though, there are usually a fair number left who just shoot and assault you the next turn anyways. Oh look, dead Sisters squad.


I might consider just going dakka-dakka on TEQs. Seems like, although the 2+ would be that much worse, you're already in it to win it with them. May as well just lay on thick bolter fire. You get more shots, means more saves to take. This might be where HBs come into play much more.

J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> I might consider just going dakka-dakka on TEQs. Seems like, although the 2+ would be that much worse, you're already in it to win it with them. May as well just lay on thick bolter fire. You get more shots, means more saves to take. This might be where HBs come into play much more.
> 
> J


Maybe. I know in the past I've unloaded 2 Melta Shots (one was an Inferno Pistol), 7 Wounds from a Heavy Flamer, and 14 Bolter Shots (with only 9 wounding). Divine Guidance made maybe 4 of these wounds Rending. I killed one Terminator. The assault killed my Sisters over two turns thanks to me getting the Invul save Faith Power off. 

Now a days since you can't rely on the faith to keep you alive, or force invul saves. So we're looking at relying more heavily now on the opponent rolling 1s than before. 

EDIT: I apologize if I come off as unnecessarily negative about this, but TEQs where a problem for my army before in the local meta, and now they look nigh impossible to deal with. :/


----------



## Majere613

Zion said:


> Maybe. I know in the past I've unloaded 2 Melta Shots (one was an Inferno Pistol), 7 Wounds from a Heavy Flamer, and 14 Bolter Shots (with only 9 wounding). Divine Guidance made maybe 4 of these wounds Rending. I killed one Terminator. The assault killed my Sisters over two turns thanks to me getting the Invul save Faith Power off.


I can well believe it, but this is one of those things that just happens sometimes. I've so far *never* killed the Doom, despite hitting it with umpteen Krak missiles, Dread CC weapons, Melta shots, a Demolisher, massed bolter and assault cannon fire etc. Those 3++ rolls just keep coming up. Doesn't change the fact that it should have died, nor that I was going the right way about killing it.

That is, imho, one of the problems with the number of invulnerable saves going about these days- except in an increasingly rare number of cases all you can do about them is drown them in dice and hope.


----------



## Zion

Majere613 said:


> I can well believe it, but this is one of those things that just happens sometimes. I've so far *never* killed the Doom, despite hitting it with umpteen Krak missiles, Dread CC weapons, Melta shots, a Demolisher, massed bolter and assault cannon fire etc. Those 3++ rolls just keep coming up. Doesn't change the fact that it should have died, nor that I was going the right way about killing it.
> 
> That is, imho, one of the problems with the number of invulnerable saves going about these days- except in an increasingly rare number of cases all you can do about them is drown them in dice and hope.


I don't mind invunerable saves so much, when they work with the model and the model's fluff (like Terminator armor), but when you're running an army that can't be close combat monsters, can't act like a defensive block, can't levy insane amounts of firepower into enemy units, and is easier to wound than dish out wounds, well it hurts. It's one of the things I'm hoping Sisters get in the next codex, a dedicated CC unit that while not Lighting Claw Terminators or Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators can bring some pain for those sorts of units. Maybe a unit of 5-10 Crusaders with Power Swords and Storm Shields. That'd be pretty awesome and give the army a nice unit that can handle monsterous creatures, independant characters and TEQ units without butting into the Repentia's anti-armor abilites and allowing some overlap between the two units.

Plus Crusaders fit wonderfully with the whole "Church" theming of a Sisters army. For added bonus making them an Elite with the option to make 0-1 of them in an army Troops would give the Sisters a rock hard objective sitter/taker that can wipe fleeing units (unlike Terminators).

Hm. I think I may sit down and do a fandex when I have a little time this week. Nothing big, just something that could bring some extra usage out of some of the units that folks have sitting around and balancing out the army as a whole.


----------



## Dagmire

Well,
Having gone through the "new" codex I decided to try and make my old style army with the new points ect. I tried to get the new list as close as I could to the old army list I played. The list I used to run was a good list and did well against most armys all things concidered.
Clearly we have lost all our cool faith ablities so let glaze over the fact that my normal battle sisters are now not as good with faith as they used to be but for 1 more point per sister I get frag and krack nades as well as a bolt pistol

So lets start with my HQ
for 20 points more I get the nades and stubbon. No need to buy the Book of st lucius
I save 25 points over all on the cannoness.I lose a 2+ save and the inv so i bought the Rosarie. I used a blessed weapon so i decided to buy the power weapon, no S5 but its pointless taking a evisorator if my AoF give me +1I :s
Over all the cannoness is weeker in my opinion. She used to be my Hammer unit, now... blugh.

Ok so troops.
Base unit cost 1 point more 
As i ran 3 squads of 10 battle sisters with the BoSL a melta and a Heavy flamer. The 20 points for a Heavy flame is a fucking joke. Over all it cost me 4 points more with no stubborn (no BoSL) for each squad 
To give them all a rhino I save 8 points on each and get that 6+ save so thats not too bad 

Next up is the fast attack.
I ran a squad if dominion sisters with 4 flamers a holy braizer and a power weapon. These were all mounted in an immolator and joined to the cannoness. with Lits of faith and 4-5(holy brazier) rending flamer templates they were nasty.
With the new dex I save 30 points but lose 2 of the flamers  and with no devine guidance its debatable wether I take them......
The immolator saves me 3 points but I lose holy promethium AND the ability to move 12" and flame something. If you will also notice we have lost a firing port so no firing out of the immolator 

Next I will move to the heavy support.
I ran 2 exorcists at 150 points with additions. The new dex is 10 more points over all. For this 6+ save?

At this stage I am at 
1230 over all saving 270 points but I am missing
5 storm troopers an inquisitor and an assassin which cost 220 giving me a total saving of 50 points for bog standard sisters of battle 

Take a bog standard troop choice at 125 to give me the 4 scoring units I want and 
This gives me 145 points to spend on elites.

Over all ..... Well its workable but not great. 50 points saved is not toobad but I dont thinkhe over all performance is not going to be what i used to play, the loss of 6 faith points and all the tricks I used to be able to pull is not going to equait to 50 points i dont think.
We will see.
D

Ps note my sub par canonnes cost the same as St Celestine. For fuck sake


----------



## The Sullen One

Dagmire said:


> Ps note my sub par canonnes cost the same as St Celestine. For fuck sake


Possibly the worst aspect of the new sobdex. Having read the lists myself, I tried working out a decent 1'500 point army. Here's what I came up with:

HQ - Bare bones Cannoness with nowt but a Chainsword. Yes I could take an Eviscerator but I'm wary of giving characters weapons with initiative penalites, while a 4++ invulnerable save seems redundant given the outcome of any combat against Marines, Terminators or hordes. Celestine's tempting, but she'll be targeted by everything in range and against certain armies, such as IG, that's too much firepower for her to live through, even if she can resurrect herself.

Troops - 3 squads of Battle Sisters, each with a Multi-melta, a flamer and a Simulacrum Imperialis. I don't even see the point of a Rhino here, given how easy they are to destroy. Sadly given the unholy trinity of S3, T3 and I3 it seems to make more sense tactically to hang back and let the enemy come to you.

Fast Attack - 2 squads of Seraphim with an Eviscerator for the superior and one set each of hand flamers and inferno pistols. Used for short but vicious counterattacks and stalling actions.

Heavy Support - 3 Exorcists. Seriously what else would I bother taking?


----------



## WallWeasels

Few points:
Celestine and Jacbous are the only two HQs worth their own points costs. 

Battle sisters with a stationary heavy weapon is just destined for failure. They won't do their job if you won't let them. The rhino is purely a delivery device for our now, fairly mediocre, battle sister. However trying to take "pot shots" with a stationary 24" weapon is not a good idea and significantly less effective. You are also paying for a banner that, ultimately, you won't use their AoF much for anyway. 

Seraphim also cannot reall "stall" anything. They are LD9 without stubborn or fearless and thus even IF you succeed your rerolling 6++ (only way to "tank" any wounds they have) you'll run pretty quickly...and then get caught due to their nerfed I3. 

the list requires: more dominions, more rhinos and possibly jacobus+DCA/Crusaders. Sadly larger BSS squads were not effective before, but they are even less effective now (because they cost more). This, sadly, means rhinos are the 'only' option. Which, as I have mentioned several times, puts us at the level of "mediocre rhinospam army" which is easily squashed by IG/GK/BA/SW due to great shooting capabilities.

Zion: Sounds like two poorly optimized forces clashed to be honest. fairly laid back games are a generally bad way to "test" anything. Even you say that for tournaments you'd want another army (which means it isn't playable, in my opinion). Most people/myself, and even the WD report (they got something right for once), have remarked that "I get faith when I dont want it, and when I want it I dont get it." Really there is just NO reason to play sisters apart from "I like sisters." We cannot do anything another army can do equal or better. Very sad day. 

However I might agree this "stripped out" many things of sisters...but it seems it had no intension to bring them back. I lol so hard that people act like "ZOMG SMALL UNITS CAN GET 3++" then tell me their 3++ unit has FNP, or 3++ and 2w/ET blah blah. Faith was hardly broken and those complaining "having to keep track" how is an individual amount of points per turn ANY easier to track? What about pain tokens in DE? Oh boy you get to keep track of EVERY UNITS INDIVIDUAL TOKENS~! Since thats less of a bother right? Oh you used tokens? how about you USE TOKENS FOR FAITH POINTS :V
Regardless, I feel a standard real codex would bring back faith. I think GW is in a right position to "trampoline" us...because right now we are about as low as we can go...so if we come back we should bounce pretty high  However I have a proposition for everyone: 

I want to test something (and just doing it myself isn't going to show to much as I am just one man ). Try using the current ruleset but with C:WHs faith system. I have tested this twice so far and the results were...fairly nice. However there are obvious problems with it still, as tanking wounds with a 3++ means nothing if you are just going to run away from combat. But it makes units like the command squad fairly resilient with 3++ on demand and FNP. So at least they can provide rerolls. I plan to tweak it around a bit and "fandex" the merger slightly. Should be somewhat interesting to see the results of more people trying it out


----------



## Zion

WallWeasels said:


> Zion: Sounds like two poorly optimized forces clashed to be honest. fairly laid back games are a generally bad way to "test" anything. Even you say that for tournaments you'd want another army (which means it isn't playable, in my opinion). Most people/myself, and even the WD report (they got something right for once), have remarked that "I get faith when I dont want it, and when I want it I dont get it." Really there is just NO reason to play sisters apart from "I like sisters." We cannot do anything another army can do equal or better. Very sad day.


Honestly, due to a lack of models on my part to cover the new units left me unable to really try things out (heavy bolter Sisters, and Jacob for example) so I built a list based on my available models from what worked in the old 'dex.

Really I do like Sisters, I really do, which is why it pains me that they perform so poorly on the table. They're best served as a close-range shooting unit, but even in that niche they have trouble levelling wounds on a lot of models in the MEQ or better category without relying on luck to be effective. Without giving some units Relentless to allow them to move and fire Heavy Bolters or Multi-Meltas to make them more effective on the table, or giving the Sisters some kind of solid boost (which a 6++ is not. It's a nice nod, but nothing substantial for the army) they aren't going to be the solid army I wish they were. The peices are there, but there are just too many holes for them to be good enough to win even semi-consistantly without the same basic list which is still filled with holes that can be punched through with some prior thought. Now don't take me wrong, Sisters aren't on the lowest tier at the moment (Tau and Necrons currently beat them out in at least my local meta) but I wouldn't put them above bottom-middle right now. They function, but if you don't have the right units, or don't like fielding special characters all the time, they're abilities are severely limited, and that honestly sucks.


----------



## Kraban

Well, may be due to my inability to roll 3+ save (for example two days ago I lost 7 sisters in rhino explosion) I don't miss invulnerable saves much :biggrin:

Still I don't think that it is that match weakness, because opponent simply can't hide in HTH. Lost seraphim squad? Avenge!:laugh:

To wipe out TEQ squads you still have exorcists supported with assasins, IP seraphim and new retributors. And you can try not that cheap, but deadly, HF retributor squad.

Using new rules and old faith system in my eyes makes sisters too powerful) it may be fun once or twice but such victories have no cost I think.

And Rhinos are not only transport, they are walls that shock and cut enemy army in two parts giving you local advantage.


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## WallWeasels

Zion said:


> Honestly, due to a lack of models on my part to cover the new units left me unable to really try things out (heavy bolter Sisters, and Jacob for example) so I built a list based on my available models from what worked in the old 'dex.
> 
> Really I do like Sisters, I really do, which is why it pains me that they perform so poorly on the table. They're best served as a close-range shooting unit, but even in that niche they have trouble levelling wounds on a lot of models in the MEQ or better category without relying on luck to be effective. Without giving some units Relentless to allow them to move and fire Heavy Bolters or Multi-Meltas to make them more effective on the table, or giving the Sisters some kind of solid boost (which a 6++ is not. It's a nice nod, but nothing substantial for the army) they aren't going to be the solid army I wish they were. The peices are there, but there are just too many holes for them to be good enough to win even semi-consistantly without the same basic list which is still filled with holes that can be punched through with some prior thought. Now don't take me wrong, Sisters aren't on the lowest tier at the moment (Tau and Necrons currently beat them out in at least my local meta) but I wouldn't put them above bottom-middle right now. They function, but if you don't have the right units, or don't like fielding special characters all the time, they're abilities are severely limited, and that honestly sucks.


Which basically says its unplayable. According to stats from the prelims of 'Ard Boyz WH had only ONE person advance, while necrons and tau had 2 and 3 :laugh: and thats with our previous rules...I really doubt it will get much better in this.
But Cruddace is extremely hit and miss...given his 1/3 "good to not good" record now


----------



## [email protected]

WallWeasels said:


> But Cruddace is extremely hit and miss...given his 1/3 "good to not good" record now


So Cruddace's rules writing save is 5+? Or does he Wound players on a 3+?

J


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## Zion

[email protected] said:


> So Cruddace's rules writing save is 5+? Or does he Wound players on a 3+?
> 
> J


He wounds players on a 3+ but then has to take a 5+ armor save because the mental effort to do so injures him.



WallWeasels said:


> Which basically says its unplayable. According to stats from the prelims of 'Ard Boyz WH had only ONE person advance, while necrons and tau had 2 and 3 and thats with our previous rules...I really doubt it will get much better in this.
> But Cruddace is extremely hit and miss...given his 1/3 "good to not good" record now


With the Meta for my local gaming community, I'd say it's pretty much unplayable. I'll still keep them and bring them for fun games, but not for league or tournament play.


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## MadCowCrazy

Got my WD today, last month I ripped it open and ogled all over the Sisters parts (giggity) but this month I didn't bother opening it until late in the day. I got pretty much what I expected, a steaming pile of fail...

When reading the battle report I noticed 2 funny sentences.

P.96
Nevertheless, Robin was up for taking the Battle Sisters for a test run and even felt confident he could take on the many gribblies present in the Tyranid army list.

Taking them for a test run? A TEST RUN?! The hell do the mean by that? This the first game Cruddace has ever played with the new rules? Oh, and he feels "confident" he could take on the nids... Yeah cause so many 5E armies shake in their boots when going up against the nids. Sure the nids can be really competitive but I think everyone with a 5E dex is confident when faced with nids.

P.97
Robin: The Sisters of Battle excel at short-ranged firefights...

Oh really? What exactly is it they can do at short-range that makes them "excel" at it? Could it be that since they only have weapons with a max range of 24" (Exorcist is a vehicle so doesn't count ) this basically rules out all other ranges which in turn means that since they only have short ranged firepower they "have to" excel at it...:crazy:

Battle Report was pretty meh, Penitent Engine was pretty useless killing a single Warrior all game. I would have loved to see that thing getting into combat with genestealers, it would have been taken down before it even got to swing.

To me it seems they chose 1 shitty codex vs 1 mediocre codex and threw in some random units hoping for a close game.

Sisters vs Grey Knights/Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard would have ended with the Sisters getting wiped off the board by turn 3 or 4.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Got my WD today, last month I ripped it open and ogled all over the Sisters parts (giggity) but this month I didn't bother opening it until late in the day. I got pretty much what I expected, a steaming pile of fail...
> 
> When reading the battle report I noticed 2 funny sentences.
> 
> P.96
> Nevertheless, Robin was up for taking the Battle Sisters for a test run and even felt confident he could take on the many gribblies present in the Tyranid army list.
> 
> Taking them for a test run? A TEST RUN?! The hell do the mean by that? This the first game Cruddace has ever played with the new rules? Oh, and he feels "confident" he could take on the nids... Yeah cause so many 5E armies shake in their boots when going up against the nids. Sure the nids can be really competitive but I think everyone with a 5E dex is confident when faced with nids.


You mean you didn't hear the rumors that this "gift" of a codex wasn't play tested?


----------



## gally912

Zion said:


> You mean you didn't hear the rumors that this "gift" of a codex wasn't play tested?


Maybe this is just a beta run of the ruleset that way they can put out a player-play-tested codex by the end of the ye-

oh, I can't even say that with a straight face.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just had my first 2000pt game with the WD dex.

Annihilation, Dawn of War deployment

My SoB vs DE Wych spam list.
Got my ass handed to me, 10 kill points for me to his 17.
All I had left was an Immobilised Rhino with no weapons and Saint Celestine who died 3 times but got back up every round 
Didn't know I was fighting DE so didn't have enough flamers in my army.
He basically just went from battle to battle and whiped out my units as they came on the board. I put everything in reserves, outflank or deepstrike as his shooting would have destroyed me if I had had anything on the table.

HQ
Saint Celestine: 115pts

Uriah Jacobus: 90

Battle Conclave
9 Death Cult Assassins: 135pt
-Rhino Transport: 35

Troops
2x Battle Sister Squads 250pt
-4x meltagun 40pt
-2x Rhino 70pt

Elite
Sisters Repentia
9 Repentia 175pt
1 Mistress
-Melta Bomb 5pt

Sisters Repentia
9 Repentia 175 pt
1 Mistress
-Melta Bomb 5pt

Fast Attack
3x Dominion Squad 70pt
-6x meltagun 60pt
-3x Immolator 195
-3x Multi Melta 45pt

Heavy Support
1x Exorcist 135pt

3x Penient Engine 255pt

Retributors
10 Retributors 125
-4x Heavy Bolter 20pt

1995pts

Lelith 175 Points

9 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 1 hydra gauntlet and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 200 Points

10 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 2 hydra gauntlets and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 220 Points

10 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 2 hydra gauntlets, grenades, and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 240 Points

10 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 2 hydra gauntlets, grenades, and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 240 Points

10 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 2 hydra gauntlets, grenades, and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 240 Points

10 Wyches with Hekatrix with agoniser, 2 hydra gauntlets, grenades, and raider with Shock Prow and Chain-Snares 240 Points

3 Reavers with Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops 98 Points
3 Reavers with Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops 98 Points
3 Reavers with Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops 98 Points

Ravager with Flickerfield 115 Points
Ravager with Flickerfield 115 Points
Ravager with Flickerfield 115 Points


----------



## WallWeasels

Thats pretty much as I would expect...although not taking the 3x penitent engines might of helped.


----------



## Kraban

What a strange army... 3 petients, 2 repentia squad with m-bombs... no flamers at all...

You think you'd have a chance to win with such army using old dex?)


----------



## Kraban

Didn't want to post my first game on the new rules because it was 1000 battle against ork test army on the smaller table, but thought that it can boost morale)

I used

Jacobus with 8 dca mounted in rhino

2 bss with double flamers mounted in rhino

2 5 seraphim squads with 2 dbl inferno

and exorcist

against

doc grotsnik with 10 cyber burnaboyz mounted in looted vagon

19 boyz with nob with claw mounted in battlevagon

14 cyberlootas

and gretchin squad.

We played 3 objectives. Game lasted 6 turns and in the end I had two of them.

Ork player had in the end fleeing wounded nob from boyz squad and gretchins hiding on 3-d objective, while I had

Jacobus with 6 or 7 dca, 3 seraphims, 6 sisters and 3 sisters (this squad lost rest 7 ladies in rhino explosion as I mentioned some posts earlier)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I know, my army list sucked, problem was that I had to fill up points with something. A 1500pt list I can fill out no problem, but 2000pts with the new codex is harder.
After you fill out the Fast Attack, Heavy support and HQ what left is there to take that's worth the points? Nothing in Elite and Troops are pretty meh.

Funny thing is my Penitent Engines killed more than the rest of my army together. They were brutal to say the least causing nearly 100wounds in the 2 rounds they got to do something. Pathetically easy to destroy but fun vs things that can't fight back.
I basically wanted to try everything out so that's what I did. Penitent Engines and Celestine were the most successful parts of my army.
In the picture I posted there are some blocks with 1 in it, that's where my units where wiped out.

The 6++ was quite interesting, nothing you can rely on but hilarious when I made it. I made 3 6++saves that would have destroyed my left side Immolator. Quite allot of 6++ saves were made but nothing that would have changed anything.


----------



## WallWeasels

Well I can't see how the penitents weren't wiped out fast given the army played...but meh. Just can't see myself wanting to pay 255 points for it. ;|


----------



## Zion

WallWeasels said:


> Well I can't see how the penitents weren't wiped out fast given the army played...but meh. Just can't see myself wanting to pay 255 points for it. ;|


I'm going to guess that they assumed they were worthless and found out the hard way that they weren't as worthless as previously thought. Or bad shooting and penetration rolls.


----------



## Kraban

Well, I think that double flamer bss is not that bad for 170 pts including rhino. Without guidance they are weaker, but cheaper. Especially against DE)


----------



## Voldrak

How did you play those Penitent Engines?

Nowhere in the new rules does it mention that they are a squadron, yet you can take 3 per heavy slot.

If they can be played independently of each other, it does make them a little more durable as you can only shoot at one of them at a time, assault one and they do not suffer from an immobilized = wreck.


----------



## Zion

Voldrak said:


> How did you play those Penitent Engines?
> 
> Nowhere in the new rules does it mention that they are a squadron, yet you can take 3 per heavy slot.
> 
> If they can be played independently of each other, it does make them a little more durable as you can only shoot at one of them at a time, assault one and they do not suffer from an immobilized = wreck.


That idea suddenly makes them a LOT cooler. I bet they'll get nerfed in an FAQ or tweaked PDF copy when it goes online.

EDIT: Actually I think I just spotted while it can't work. 

In the Pentinent Engine army list section it mentions Unit Comp is 1 Pentinent Engine, however if you look under options it states that you can "Include an _*additional*_ two Pentinent Engines" (emphasis mine) for xx points each. I believe that is supposed to modify the initial unit comp.

Now smart writing would have said unit comp was 1-3 Pentinent Engines at xx points each and kept this from being an issue. 

Then again I could always be wrong and Cruddance intended to unnerf Pentinent Engines by allowing us to take 9 to run wild separate from each other for the sake of moving a model (something it seems he hasn't been above doing in the past, but I digress).

So who else thinks this thing already needs to be FAQ'd less than a week out of the gate?

ADDITIONAL EDIT:

Rumor is starting to circulate over on Bolter and Chainsword of a mythical GW Regional Manager who has pictures of the new Sisters models on an iPad and is showing them at the stores under his control. Take it with salt.


----------



## Voldrak

Old witchhunter codex did mention they were a squadron and as thus were subject to squadron rules.

Every other units so far that I've seen that can have multiples in one slot make mention of the unit being a squadron (codex IG being the best example).

I don't think there's anything that covers this rule when it comes down to vehicles. If it does not mention it's a squadron, then it's not subject to it's rules and should normally be able to function independently.

Mind you, at 80 points a piece, it's going to be costly to run 9 of those.

What you quoted from the codex itself can be interpreted as squadron (RIA), or that they have to remain together.. but how to do you do that if they're not a squadron? There is no precedent for it.

Until a FAQ comes out, I will be playing it the way it's written.


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## WallWeasels

Ah yes the old "a manager told me" stories. Well those have barely held up with time and at this point...I am less likely to believe it. The concept of a manager just going around to show people this stuff baffles me enough as it is :x


----------



## Kraban

Voldrak said:


> What you quoted from the codex itself can be interpreted as squadron (RIA), or that they have to remain together.. but how to do you do that if they're not a squadron? There is no precedent for it.


In old C:WH Death Cult assassins could be taken 1-3 in one slot, but act independently during the game. How ever, it was literally written in codex.

I suppose until FAQ will be written we are free to do as we please, so enjoy.:biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

WallWeasels said:


> Well I can't see how the penitents weren't wiped out fast given the army played...but meh. Just can't see myself wanting to pay 255 points for it. ;|





Kraban said:


> In old C:WH Death Cult assassins could be taken 1-3 in one slot, but act independently during the game. How ever, it was literally written in codex.
> 
> I suppose until FAQ will be written we are free to do as we please, so enjoy.:biggrin:


I wanted to play them as independent as that's how I read the rule.

The old dex said Unit Composition: 1-3 PE while the new one says Unit Composition 1 PE and you have to option to buy 2 more.
My opponent said they were still in a squadron though so we played them as such.

The turn he shot at them I lost 2 right off the bat, the last one killed the Ravager that killed his buddies and went towards the nearest Wych squad, he rammed it from behind in his turn killing it.

They basically came in from reserves on turn 3, flamed his Wych squad with Lilith causing 37 wounds of which Lylith and a single Wych survived, I then assaulted and caused 5 wounds killing Lilith and then caused another 1 wound which the Wych survived with it's damned 4++ but it fled and I couldn't catch up. Next turn he shot at them with 1 Ravager killing 2 and from there on my lone PE killed 3 units before he rammed it with his raider killing it with the shock-prow.

If anyone wants to play a game on Vassal let me know, my next list will be all infantry or a drag race list.


----------



## Kraban

Can you tell me how many points cost storm bolter for superior or it is forbidden?

I ordered WD on weekend so with some luck I'll get it in three weeks


----------



## hells

Kraban said:


> Can you tell me how many points cost storm bolter for superior or it is forbidden?
> 
> I ordered WD on weekend so with some luck I'll get it in three weeks


sent a message  pretty sure that isnt against rules X3

well the new rules seem usable, definatlly nothing exciting unless the repentia get a charge or your command squads wondering the map with relentless multimeltas :3

close combat is extreally lacking, necrons were slaaughtering through my squads, at least the managed to flee most the time when they broke but against higher inititave armies theyll just get run down, its a shame we dont have anything to protect us, even grey knights have ways to stop the enemy charging and grey knights are decent in close combat.

actually had a random idea while trying to sleep the other day for sisters bieng charged

martyrdom: when your oponent declares a charge on a squad you make make an inititave test on a member in the squad, if sucsesfull the model hurls herself foward to take the charge while the rest of the squad moves D6 away from combat

could be a decent defense for us and its not that hard to concieve a battle sister hurling herself at the enemy to allow her squadmates to pull back /shrug boredom


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kraban said:


> Can you tell me how many points cost storm bolter for superior or it is forbidden?
> 
> I ordered WD on weekend so with some luck I'll get it in three weeks


Why would you ever take a stormbolter? Is there something I'm missing or is it actually worth taking a stormbolter?
Should be 3pts if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Kraban

MadCowCrazy said:


> Why would you ever take a stormbolter? Is there something I'm missing or is it actually worth taking a stormbolter?
> Should be 3pts if I'm not mistaken.


Well, I thought it is not that bad in HB retributor squad, giving additional rending attack in 12''-24''. At least it worths 3 points.


----------



## Vicktimization

Only have a few moments to add to the forums before I run off to college.

I got to GW at 10am on release day to get the second half in my hot little hands and sat there in the store after purchasing it to read it all through.

I am happy with Celestine, the Repentia, and Seraphim. Exorcists are still good, too.

The other stuff that I am upset about has been listed by everyone else... the faith-watering, the weird new Celestians, Penitent Engines being heavys and still a lot of points for an easily kited unit. And so on.

Also, for everyone who wanted to play the old WH codex: the WD codex says that this is a *REPLACEMENT* for the other one in the first half... meaning that in tournaments and at GW stores you will be very likely forced to run with this new one.

Am I happy about it? Not really. But, I want to still be able to go in tournaments. 

We can still mow down swarm armies (the ones that are left) with glorious fire. Celestine is much better (and she was my fav HQ anyways), and with MM's in reg battle sister squads we have a little longer range for popping tanks and big stuff. I'm going to make this codex work, and already have my lists made up. I still love my sisters, and will continue to wait patiently for a PROPER, WELL-MADE codex to come out (because they took away rather than adding, and ithis is very badly-made), with shiny new models and renewed glory.

Keep faith, my Sisters. We will wait, as before, for the golden days to return.


----------



## WallWeasels

hells said:


> sent a message  pretty sure that isnt against rules X3
> well the new rules seem usable, definably nothing exciting unless the repentia get a charge or your command squads wondering the map with relentless multimeltas :3
> close combat is extremely lacking, necrons were slaughtering through my squads, at least the managed to flee most the time when they broke but against higher initiative armies they'll just get run down, its a shame we dont have anything to protect us, even grey knights have ways to stop the enemy charging and Grey knights are decent in close combat.
> 
> actually had a random idea while trying to sleep the other day for sisters bieng charged
> 
> martyrdom: when your opponent declares a charge on a squad you make make an inititave test on a member in the squad, if successful the model hurls herself foward to take the charge while the rest of the squad moves D6 away from combat
> 
> could be a decent defense for us and its not that hard to conceive a battle sister hurling herself at the enemy to allow her squadmates to pull back /shrug boredom


Its "usable" but hardly competitive. I would of loved to of seen 'Ard Boyz results of this army list, but it was just a few months to late. It is a sad day when necron warriors are beating you in combat. Combat, Leadership, and Faith are my biggest dislikes about this ruleset and will be the shining issues that remain from day 1 to day 9999. 
The issue of sisters is this grey area between "shooting" and "combat". 
The grey area is "how to balance an army that requires close range to shoot". If you only get, lets say, one turn of shooting before they can charge you...how do you balance this? Funny enough space wolves "tried" this. Wolves, I think, were designed around the premise of "move up, shoot bolters, get charged and counter-attack". Not exactly how it worked out in the end, but its not terribly far off :laugh: 
So how do you balance an army around close range shooting? They can't just blow away anything within 12" or they'll never be charged...so how? Well general its tarpitting. Being stubborn enough to not die instantly to combat to allow reinforcements to help win the combat, or to isolate combats so others can shoot the opponent after winning. C:WH sort of did this...
In terms of my own writing I had considered tons of methods to delay or inhibit combat. My original book ended up having sisters equipped "phosphorus" grenades (stolen courteously from the only thing I liked of Soulstorm) that counted as frag and defensive grenades. This alone hindered charges and increased charge-resistance. Combined with stubborn and faith for a 4++ (nerfed from 3++ in testing) made blobs of sisters quite tough to crack. Infact to the point that, as I said, I had to nerf SotM to 4+ and debated on making the grenade purchasable, rather than stock (that or increase the base cost of units). I also had an AoF (althogh it was designed to be an AoF only usable by a Palatine) that gave Counter-attack and I believe something else (can't remember). My point was to create more uses of faith while remaining a total cap on how many can be used. 
However it seems more likely that GW, even in a real codex, will stay with faith-generation with possible increases to total amount. Regardless I don't want to get to "me me me" in here :laugh:

[edit]Vicktimization: im still not happy with repentia and, to me, seraphim are overshadowed by dominions. We all know this is a replacement, the point is more "fuck this im protesting" than anything else  Nor would I advise anyone walk into a tournament and expect to win with almost any list you can make with this ruleset. If you do win, well I hope its because you were the best general in the world rather than your opponents being that bad  There is, as a point, no reason to take this "codex". It is nothing it can do remotely better than another Imperial choice.


----------



## wickedchild

Has anyone noticed in the WD battle report that the army is not even legal ?
They managed to run 5 dominions with 4 special weapons :clapping:
That and the fact that they did not even bother writing the list shows how much "love" was put in this so-called codex :angry:


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## WallWeasels

Well the WD is pretty crammed, what with all the important ogre stuff. Not like anything else was coming out the same time  *cough cough*
But yes, dominions with 4 weapons that also seemed to change to flamers at somepoint in the battle...


----------



## Zion

Well in an attempt to stay positive I've decided to work out and paint a complete, valid 2000 point list with the new codex. As much as I'm not paticularly excited about some of the changes I'll still play this thing, and if I'm going to do that I might as well stop putting off painting the old models in hopes of new ones being released. I can always do one-for-one replacements for them later and save the metal ones for Apoc games later anyways.

I'm still on the lookout for rumors for anything in the future, but of course it's quieter than Christmas Eve night right now. If I see anything of course I'll keep you guys in the loop (assuming you don't beat me to it by posting it first ).


----------



## rasolyo

Alright, question:
When does rolling for the new Divine Guidance occur?
Is it before selecting targets, or after?
This makes a world of difference when you decide to take pot shots at AV12 and higher.
The rules aren't clear about this either, saying that you test before shooting.


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## Vicktimization

Wallweasels: Interesting ideas you have there. And you are totally right, there is not a reason in the world to play this army anymore unless you like the models and/or already own them. Or the fluff. They don't have anything really distinctive, rules-wise, that gives them a true advantage over the other armies. I guess I stick with it because I have for so long, and can't bring myself to sell them and pick up something else.


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## WallWeasels

rasolyo said:


> Alright, question:
> When does rolling for the new Divine Guidance occur?
> Is it before selecting targets, or after?
> This makes a world of difference when you decide to take pot shots at AV12 and higher.
> The rules aren't clear about this either, saying that you test before shooting.


The rules are very clear...it states before the unit acts.
This means:
attempt faith
pass? shoot vehicle (or anything)
fail? shoot not-vehicle
It is done before targeting choices (or any choices). It isn't required to be done the start of the turn, just before a unit acts.


----------



## rasolyo

Ah, didn't realize that selecting targets was part of it. Thanks.


----------



## Zion

This may seem silly, but I was just looking at the rules for the Battle Conclave since I'm looking at adding them to my army (a block of Crusaders and Jacobus in a Rhino to go mess up Tact Squads with power weapons and a 3++/4+FnP save setup....I can dig it!) and I noticed something. No one in the Conclave has any kind of grenade.

Now I can understand the Arco-flagellants not having any (though they really should get a rule that lets them act like they have them anyways), but are we really supposed to believe that Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders can't/don't/won't use grenades? They're close combat specialist units, why WOULDN'T they use grenades?

*sighs* Well I better not ever use Death Cult Assassins to charge Marines in cover, that I6 would be -worthless- if I did that.


----------



## Katie Drake

Zion said:


> They're close combat specialist units, why WOULDN'T they use grenades?
> 
> *sighs* Well I better not ever use Death Cult Assassins to charge Marines in cover, that I6 would be -worthless- if I did that.


There are lots of deadly assault units that lack grenades - not having grenades is what keeps them cheap (relatively speaking). All Khornate Daemons, Assault Terminators (lightning claws only of course), Incubi, Orks of all kinds (though most can buy grenades if they want), basically every Tyranid worth noting and more.


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## Zion

Katie Drake said:


> There are lots of deadly assault units that lack grenades - not having grenades is what keeps them cheap (relatively speaking). All Khornate Daemons, Assault Terminators (lightning claws only of course), Incubi, Orks of all kinds (though most can buy grenades if they want), basically every Tyranid worth noting and more.


One point less than a standard Tact Marine each isn't something I call "cheap". Especially with most of their stat lines (I3 for the Crusaders means he can't hit before the Space Marines do anyways). If you're going to price a model with normal human stats but price him like he came out of C:SM the least that could have been done was tossing in some Frag Grenades so they would go before the Power fists/Thunder hammers you're likely to get stuck in with. But I'm probably thinking too hard about this.

I'm still going to use them, I'm just going to be more aware about what I'm doing with them than before is all I guess.


----------



## Katie Drake

Zion said:


> One point less than a standard Tact Marine each isn't something I call "cheap". Especially with most of their stat lines (I3 for the Crusaders means he can't hit before the Space Marines do anyways). If you're going to price a model with normal human stats but price him like he came out of C:SM the least that could have been done was tossing in some Frag Grenades so they would go before the Power fists/Thunder hammers you're likely to get stuck in with. But I'm probably thinking too hard about this.
> 
> I'm still going to use them, I'm just going to be more aware about what I'm doing with them than before is all I guess.


Really? =/

15 points buys you either a super cheap storm shield carrying wound marker (that happens to carry a power weapon on top) or one of the most deadly close combat fighters in the game, pound-for-pound. They cost like Space Marines do because they can beat the crap out of almost anything and can tank wounds well on top of it. Not having frags keeps those units fair. If even just the Death Cult Assassins and none of the other models in the unit had frags, we might have a serious problem on our hands as far as balance goes.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Katie Drake said:


> Really? =/
> 
> 15 points buys you either a super cheap storm shield carrying wound marker (that happens to carry a power weapon on top) or one of the most deadly close combat fighters in the game, pound-for-pound. They cost like Space Marines do because they can beat the crap out of almost anything and can tank wounds well on top of it. Not having frags keeps those units fair. If even just the Death Cult Assassins and none of the other models in the unit had frags, we might have a serious problem on our hands as far as balance goes.


Pop them in a Crusader and they count as having frag when assaulting from it 
But that's a SM vehicle so of course the sisters can't have something like that.


----------



## Vicktimization

In the next codex they should write some fluff where some Sisters find some Space Marines who are defying the Emperor or something, and so they take some of their nice things after killing them with a cleansing fire. I'd love to have some of their things. Or better yet, have our OWN things like wargear and cool vehicles that let us do things like assaulting from vehicles or tearing people down or keeping them from charging us...

If only we had actually gotten a true codex. I am really wondering how long they intend for us to get by with hastily-made garbage. One year? Two years? More?

I'm probably going to have to pick up another army to play with when the sisters frustrate me too much.


----------



## TheSpore

Vicktimization said:


> In the next codex they should write some fluff where some Sisters find some Space Marines who are defying the Emperor or something, and so they take some of their nice things after killing them with a cleansing fire. I'd love to have some of their things. Or better yet, have our OWN things like wargear and cool vehicles that let us do things like assaulting from vehicles or tearing people down or keeping them from charging us...
> 
> If only we had actually gotten a true codex. I am really wondering how long they intend for us to get by with hastily-made garbage. One year? Two years? More?
> 
> I'm probably going to have to pick up another army to play with when the sisters frustrate me too much.


Don't give up on them I'm sure if we work this new "codex" we can all make them winners.


----------



## Zion

Katie Drake said:


> Really? =/
> 
> 15 points buys you either a super cheap storm shield carrying wound marker (that happens to carry a power weapon on top) or one of the most deadly close combat fighters in the game, pound-for-pound. They cost like Space Marines do because they can beat the crap out of almost anything and can tank wounds well on top of it. Not having frags keeps those units fair. If even just the Death Cult Assassins and none of the other models in the unit had frags, we might have a serious problem on our hands as far as balance goes.


I'd pay for frags in this case. Those three units are the only ones in the codex who can really justify needing them in the first place, so it might be why I was going "WTF" when I saw that. And even with frags two of those units only go at I3, the same as Guard, and after Marines, but before Power Fists and Thunder Hammers (which would have made them great for dealing with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer termies and Thunder Hammer wielding Grey Knights!), only one of them goes at I6, and those don't last in a sustained fight against MEQ or TEQ anyways and -need- the first hit in combat to be effective.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Pop them in a Crusader and they count as having frag when assaulting from it
> But that's a SM vehicle so of course the sisters can't have something like that.


That'd be pretty neat (especially having Crusaders come assaulting out of a Land Raider Crusader ("Yo dawg, I heard you like Crusaders! So I put Crusaders in your Crusaders so you can crusade while you crusade!" ) but I think Sisters need a varient of their own. Or maybe AV14/13/13 (lower armor since it uses less to fit more people?) with the ability to hold 15 or so models and assault out the front ramp with grenades. We could even call it a War Altar and give it some kind of special rule to fit into the army.

But THAT would be too cool to do I guess.


----------



## Winterous

Zion said:


> But THAT would be too cool to do I guess.


Or, you know, too out of character...
I think the best the Sisters deserve is a Rhino with Assault Ramps, maybe AV12 on the front and sides; no Frag Launchers, that'd be heaps too good.


----------



## andrewm9

Winterous said:


> Or, you know, too out of character...
> I think the best the Sisters deserve is a Rhino with Assault Ramps, maybe AV12 on the front and sides; no Frag Launchers, that'd be heaps too good.


Well it wouldn't be out of character for the Sisters to get some AV14 in their army. They are currently the only Imperial Army without some in it.


----------



## Zion

Winterous said:


> Or, you know, too out of character...
> I think the best the Sisters deserve is a Rhino with Assault Ramps, maybe AV12 on the front and sides; no Frag Launchers, that'd be heaps too good.


Rhinos have "Assault Ramps", they don't do anything. So congrats, that idea doesn't give them anything but hybrid Rhino/Chimera vehicles.

Additionally, it's not out of character since the Sisters haven't been given much character to start with. They have a little history, most of it has been tweaked a bit to add, then remove Inquisitorial units, but that's it. There is plenty of room for expansion from "crazy religious cult", or at least expanding the army to stop treating Sisters so poorly.


----------



## LordWaffles

Zion said:


> One point less than a standard Tact Marine each isn't something I call "cheap". Especially with most of their stat lines (I3 for the Crusaders means he can't hit before the Space Marines do anyways). If you're going to price a model with normal human stats but price him like he came out of C:SM the least that could have been done was tossing in some Frag Grenades so they would go before the Power fists/Thunder hammers you're likely to get stuck in with. But I'm probably thinking too hard about this.
> 
> I'm still going to use them, I'm just going to be more aware about what I'm doing with them than before is all I guess.


What the hell are you doing.

No really, that's crazy talk. Just don't be dong-tarded about where you charge them and you'll be fine, hell with the 5+ invul you'll survive long enough to strike and kill all the marines at I1.

Did you even -read- that statline, can you even comprehend how absurdly powerful the assassins are at all times? They're rigoddamndiculous.

They get to be faster than bloodletters, have the same amount of attacks, hit more often, and with rad grenades they hit as hard as a bloodletter can, charging or not. They are -wildly- op, and there is a REASON every Coteaz list has the crazed buggers.

If you don't like t3 you could bring four arcoflags, suddenly the entire group(With techmarine for gk, I haven't seen what doodoo they gave sisters yet) you're now t4 majority, and ws5 majority.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

They could make a new Repressor model that's basically 2 Rhinos in length and instead of 6 sisters being able to shoot out with bolters 12 could and 4 special weapons. Troop capacity 20 models, you could nickname it the "Bang Buss"... I wish...


----------



## Zion

LordWaffles said:


> What the hell are you doing.
> 
> No really, that's crazy talk. Just don't be dong-tarded about where you charge them and you'll be fine, hell with the 5+ invul you'll survive long enough to strike and kill all the marines at I1.
> 
> Did you even -read- that statline, can you even comprehend how absurdly powerful the assassins are at all times? They're rigoddamndiculous.
> 
> They get to be faster than bloodletters, have the same amount of attacks, hit more often, and with rad grenades they hit as hard as a bloodletter can, charging or not. They are -wildly- op, and there is a REASON every Coteaz list has the crazed buggers.
> 
> If you don't like t3 you could bring four arcoflags, suddenly the entire group(With techmarine for gk, I haven't seen what doodoo they gave sisters yet) you're now t4 majority, and ws5 majority.


What Rad Grenades? Are you even looking in the Sisters codex? They don't get those here. They aren't even in the Sisters codex. Try reading the Sisters of Battle codex before you go telling me how they do in a different codex. These aren't the same things. Same STATS but not the same UNITS.


----------



## Suijin

I'm confused???

Confessors have frag grenades, so what's the problem? They work for the whole unit, correct?


----------



## WallWeasels

Suijin said:


> I'm confused???
> 
> Confessors have frag grenades, so what's the problem? They work for the whole unit, correct?


Nope. Grenades work for the models holding them.


----------



## andrewm9

Suijin said:


> I'm confused???
> 
> Confessors have frag grenades, so what's the problem? They work for the whole unit, correct?


No they don't only models equipped with grenades do not suffer the penalty, so the Confessor woudl not be fighting at initiative 1 with whatever weapon he is carrying but the rest of the squad will unless it an Eviscerator.


----------



## Kraban

I vote for arming sisters with holy trinity bolter - combi-weapon with which squad can fire once per game with meltas and once per game with flamers.:laugh:

Well, may be they should also add sarissa to it


----------



## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> No they don't only models equipped with grenades do not suffer the penalty, so the Confessor woudl not be fighting at initiative 1 with whatever weapon he is carrying but the rest of the squad will unless it an Eviscerator.


Pretty much my problem with not getting the Frag Grenades. Without the snazzy wargear options from other codices to put into our lists (like the previously mentioned Rad Grenades) giving us Frag Grenades in our Conclaves would have been throwing us a much needed bone. 

Additionally, can we stop comparing this WD Dex to every other one out there? On a competative level we now probably rank behind the old Necron codex as it is, and trying to compare our limited army selection to other newer armies is just insulting. We lack large amounts of wargear, we fall second to other armies for most close ranged mass shooting (unless we run foot lists, but I think Guard with "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" can probably still out shoot us when run in foot blobs, and they still get their vehicles when you build them that way). We're an older army that runs T3 with 3+ saves, some sweet icongraphy and models (some of which need to be updated (Can someone tell me with the Repentia Mistress is impersonating Madonna?)) and some faith powers to help buff the weaker portions of the army (but requiring tactical flexibility because unlike psychic powers we have a limited pool to draw from each turn we use them). We aren't MEQ, GEQ or TEQ. We are SEQ (Sister Equivelant ). So let's stop trying to justify why things in our list aren't as good, or aren't as awesome, because there isn't any reason for it other than a rushed set of rules that didn't get proper playtesting and weren't even fully implemented at the time the Battle Report was originally written, okay?


----------



## WallWeasels

Yeah sisters are in a very weird position...not GEQ, not really MEQ. really are SEQ  or I suppose kind of like most eldar units really. Even strking scorpions are not MEQ (despite 3+). So there is a gap in the 'types'. 
Also repentia mistresses are madonna because...I dunno. To be honest I like their model and I have a canoness thats converted from the mistress model  She is one of the "largest" sisters in terms of model size...and I bet she'd be rather scary outside that armor D: 
Regardless, people justify the poor rules already: its a WD list
They expected crap from the get-go and others were just in denial :x


----------



## Zion

WallWeasels said:


> Yeah sisters are in a very weird position...not GEQ, not really MEQ. really are SEQ  or I suppose kind of like most eldar units really. Even strking scorpions are not MEQ (despite 3+). So there is a gap in the 'types'.


That's entirely my point, comparing them to these other codices doesn't work since they aren't like these other armies. They shoot and save like Marines but die like Guard, how can you honestly compare them to either fairly?



WallWeasels said:


> Also repentia mistresses are madonna because...I dunno. To be honest I like their model and I have a canoness thats converted from the mistress model  She is one of the "largest" sisters in terms of model size...and I bet she'd be rather scary outside that armor D:


I'm going to guess she's...in shape. Like female bodybuilder in shape. You'd have to be to be able to wrangle feverant women with massive chainswords who are trying to charge the nearest thing that looks heretical ("Look a chaos influenced bunny! Purge it for the Emperor!"). Otherwise she'd likely to be overpowered by her squad (or killed because they decide to NOT try and redeem themselves and fall to Chaos instead. Which would also be bad). With that flaming helmet though she must be a bit hotheaded. *rimshot*




WallWeasels said:


> Regardless, people justify the poor rules already: its a WD list
> They expected crap from the get-go and others were just in denial :x


It's a rushed WD list from the looks of it too. And while a lot of people expected crap, I just expected....better. I knew it was likely to be bad but I was honestly hoping that they'd put some serious thought into this with Cruddance being a Sisters player himself and knowing how much we cared about this. Also I think he owes someone a candy bar.

Also, anyone else feel like the Repentia must have raided all of the Eviscerators out of the Armory or something?


----------



## WallWeasels

Cruddace really isnt a sisters player...he hasn't even finished the same force he had YEARS ago. Yeah he could of be busy being a writer and all...but its quite obviously not his real force 

But I agree...but people are comparing the quality mostly, or the power of the codex. It is one reason why I liked sisters...one of the few armies that actually USED their default weapon. Other than...like Dire Avengers, Tau (mostly due to a lack of choice), Necrons (same story as tau), and thats kinda it. Other than, lets say bolt pistols on CC troops. I mean yeah marines and guard use their bolters/lasguns but they still do most of their jobs through special/heavy weapons and other things. I liked how sisters combo'd DG to make bolters functional.

It is sad that bolters with DG nearly double its killy potential :x


----------



## Winterous

Zion said:


> Rhinos have "Assault Ramps", they don't do anything. So congrats, that idea doesn't give them anything but hybrid Rhino/Chimera vehicles.
> 
> Additionally, it's not out of character since the Sisters haven't been given much character to start with. They have a little history, most of it has been tweaked a bit to add, then remove Inquisitorial units, but that's it. There is plenty of room for expansion from "crazy religious cult", or at least expanding the army to stop treating Sisters so poorly.


No, they don't have Assault Ramps, since that's a rule, and they're also mounted on the front of the vehicle rather than the back.

It is out of character, because Sisters are a SHOOTING army, and giving them a heavy assault transport is not even nearly in character.
That's why I said a light assault transport, an AV12 Rhino with Assault Ramps for like 80 points would, in my opinion, be pretty damn good; and if it had an option to take a Multi-Melta that would be REALLY good.
All you'd need then is an Assault unit to suit the Transport, ie: Death Cult Assassins.


----------



## Zion

Winterous said:


> No, they don't have Assault Ramps, since that's a rule, and they're also mounted on the front of the vehicle rather than the back.
> 
> It is out of character, because Sisters are a SHOOTING army, and giving them a heavy assault transport is not even nearly in character.
> That's why I said a light assault transport, an AV12 Rhino with Assault Ramps for like 80 points would, in my opinion, be pretty damn good; and if it had an option to take a Multi-Melta that would be REALLY good.
> All you'd need then is an Assault unit to suit the Transport, ie: Death Cult Assassins.


They're a shooting army NOW, but what about later, say when we're more Ecclesiastical based units? We're already seeing it now, and with massive fluff revisions hitting previously limited armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons (basing this off rumors, but still) it's not really a surprise if the Sisters get some serious changes in their next update. Don't limit the army based on information that's been floating around since 2nd Edition since it's not really a true reflection of what they may become with this more religious themed units we're returning too.

Besides, by saying "that's not right with this army" you're saying that the army isn't allowed to expand or improve. You're saying the Sisters can't look at their previous battle strategies and change or improve to better handle the shifting field of battle. And that's not how REAL armies work at all. In my little dice rolling war simulation I like my armies adapting and improving from their limited roles to being actual forces on the table. 40K shouldn't be rock, paper, scissors but rather each army a solid representation of the force, filling the necessary holes in their lists to provide a good challenge for their opponent and each trying to out think each other. We preach tactics but unless each army can bring their own versions of things and potentially meet on the table on mostly equal footing then the game isn't about tactics it's about trumping people with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer Termies or Draigowing or whatever the power combo of the month is.

And as long as we hold the thinking that armies can't be adapted or improved to make them stronger or more versitile on the table we fail. We fail and we ask the designers to fail since we demand the same out of them. Should every army play the same? No. But they should be able to offer their own solutions to any problem we pose them instead of "shoot and hope it dies and if it doesn't shoot it some more".


----------



## Winterous

Zion said:


> They're a shooting army NOW, but what about later, say when we're more Ecclesiastical based units? We're already seeing it now, and with massive fluff revisions hitting previously limited armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons (basing this off rumors, but still) it's not really a surprise if the Sisters get some serious changes in their next update. Don't limit the army based on information that's been floating around since 2nd Edition since it's not really a true reflection of what they may become with this more religious themed units we're returning too.
> 
> Besides, by saying "that's not right with this army" you're saying that the army isn't allowed to expand or improve. You're saying the Sisters can't look at their previous battle strategies and change or improve to better handle the shifting field of battle. And that's not how REAL armies work at all. In my little dice rolling war simulation I like my armies adapting and improving from their limited roles to being actual forces on the table. 40K shouldn't be rock, paper, scissors but rather each army a solid representation of the force, filling the necessary holes in their lists to provide a good challenge for their opponent and each trying to out think each other. We preach tactics but unless each army can bring their own versions of things and potentially meet on the table on mostly equal footing then the game isn't about tactics it's about trumping people with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer Termies or Draigowing or whatever the power combo of the month is.


You're right, but I'm not saying they shouldn't change at all, I'm saying that the focus of their army shouldn't change.
Sisters are, first and foremost, a close-range shooting army.
That's SISTERS, not the guys that are with them; it makes sense for them to have allied units which are competent at melee.
I'm saying that Land Raiders belong with Space Marines, the elite, if Sisters are to get something along similar lines then I'd much rather it be very different.
*edit* And also, you know, not a really-dedicated-getting-guys-to-the-enemy-to-fuck-them-up transport, just a decent Assault vehicle which can also be used for other purposes.


----------



## WallWeasels

I agree, we do not ever need a "land raider" type vehicle or any heavy vehicle. To be honest I'd think a real ecchlessiarch codex might look quite similar to empire in fantasy. I'd definitely be able to see a guy preaching on top o a giant mobile alter  

Personally I would like to see the rhino and immolator almost gone from the army. WEll rhinos could stay as they are the imperial mainstay...but the immolator just needs to go. It ties us WAY to close to space marines in terms of just being "a different named razorback". The repressor, especially an AV12 front one, would greatly divert sisters to being unique and have an added image to make the army look more unique. 

However I don't want the next sisters book to just expand the fanatic/church side, but also expand the sisters themselves. Although making up ideas for a "new" sister is rather hard, since we are very specialized in the first place. But, I'd probably be able to come up with some if it was my job 

When it comes to our "combat" troops, they'd either be sisters (celestians and seraphim), or more religious fanatics (repentia, arcos, priests and mobs)...so the chances of the latter group having their own personalized transports is slim. We'll be foot slogging combat hordes if they run it remotely like it "should".


----------



## Kraban

WallWeasels said:


> I agree, we do not ever need a "land raider" type vehicle or any heavy vehicle. To be honest I'd think a real ecchlessiarch codex might look quite similar to empire in fantasy. I'd definitely be able to see a guy preaching on top o a giant mobile alter
> 
> Personally I would like to see the rhino and immolator almost gone from the army. WEll rhinos could stay as they are the imperial mainstay...but the immolator just needs to go. It ties us WAY to close to space marines in terms of just being "a different named razorback". The repressor, especially an AV12 front one, would greatly divert sisters to being unique and have an added image to make the army look more unique.
> 
> However I don't want the next sisters book to just expand the fanatic/church side, but also expand the sisters themselves. Although making up ideas for a "new" sister is rather hard, since we are very specialized in the first place. But, I'd probably be able to come up with some if it was my job
> 
> When it comes to our "combat" troops, they'd either be sisters (celestians and seraphim), or more religious fanatics (repentia, arcos, priests and mobs)...so the chances of the latter group having their own personalized transports is slim. We'll be foot slogging combat hordes if they run it remotely like it "should".


Well I like Immos and I think that old flamethrower Immo was not that close to razorback with its unique ability to deliver sister unit close and cover it with HFlamers.

I believe rumors that in next sisters' codex will appear adeptus atribes squads. And I think that these squads will be defensive (def grenades, shields or even counterattack USR) melee units rather than assault. I don't think that even assasins will be still with us. So there will be no need in assault vehicles there (and no background reason).

P.S. Why do you say that sisters don't have heavy tanks? GW Exorcist is much heavier than a LR! With green stuff it is more then 750 gramms!:biggrin:
I think it is even heavier than baneblade.:wink:


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## WallWeasels

Arbites were a massive shoe-in personally. Although I would love to see a book for them (they'd basically just be guard in carapace + shotguns anyway ), I doubt they'd be put in ours again. The only real similarity is the repressor (which was designed for use by the arbites in city situations) and that sisters commonly "defend" more than attack. Although I can see how they might work out...ultimately having "guard-like" troops is not a great way to go for appearences. Its why fanatics are fine because the yare just so radically different. Hell the only thing they "appear" like is concripts...and they are still functionally guard (in appearence). 

Well old immolators "are" razorbacks now, just BA razorbacks. It isn't a very special vehicle now that it lost the "inferno cannon" name to its weapon. That or I'd like to see a "heavy" immolator with no transport ability but more weapon options/total weapons.


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## MetalHandkerchief

I'm surprised that many didn't see Cruddace coming on this project. After his extremely popular (and horrendously imbalanced) IG codex I had it pegged as a foregone conclusion he would be the sisters writer.

Mat Ward being mostly a smurf lover, but with a secret nerd-on for Necrons - is obviously on Necrons.

And Phil Kelly on Tau with his emphatic love for anything sleek, fast or stealthy. This was all obvious to me.

But be nice to Cruddace, he's a bit of a red shirt, very inexperienced but I think he can evolve his writing, unlike Ward.


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## Kraban

WallWeasels said:


> Arbites were a massive shoe-in personally. Although I would love to see a book for them (they'd basically just be guard in carapace + shotguns anyway ), I doubt they'd be put in ours again. The only real similarity is the repressor (which was designed for use by the arbites in city situations) and that sisters commonly "defend" more than attack. Although I can see how they might work out...ultimately having "guard-like" troops is not a great way to go for appearences. Its why fanatics are fine because the yare just so radically different. Hell the only thing they "appear" like is concripts...and they are still functionally guard (in appearence).


It WAS that way. Nothing stops GW from adding new atribes units. Also it seems logical and they aren't used anywhere else.



WallWeasels said:


> Well old immolators "are" razorbacks now, just BA razorbacks. It isn't a very special vehicle now that it lost the "inferno cannon" name to its weapon. That or I'd like to see a "heavy" immolator with no transport ability but more weapon options/total weapons.


I know what they've done to them. Still I have hope that Immos wil be back. 

In the same time "Heavy" Immo seems just a copy of Baal or Banewolf.


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## Zion

An actual rumor update! LINK



40K Nation Insider said:


> Alright guys many of you who always wanted to have a sister army but just never got around to it because of the metal minis are in for a break. 40k Nation has many friends on the inside and we are coming to you with a confirmation on leaked info for the new Sister of Battle Box Sets.
> 
> Thats right you heard it hear first at 40k Nation if you do talk about it make sure to shout out that the inside scoop was from 40k Nation, a general new Sisters of Battle Box set confirmation, and a Sisters of Battle Seraphims Box Set Confirmation. Plastic Kits not Finecast.
> 
> There are a couple rumors we couldnt get confirmations on though from our friends inside and one is that GW has done a quick rip job of the forgeworld repressor kit to make there own for a box set.


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## TeDasCuen

_Sisters are a SHOOTING army... Sisters are a SHOOTING army... Sisters are a SHOOTING army... Sisters are a SHOOTING army..._ :wacko:


AAAAAAH! What the....! Sisters are a SHOOTING army? Really? Perhaps is most correctly to say: "Sisters are a *REALLY SHORT RANGE* SHOOTING army...", isn't?

Sisters are 12" real shooting range. This mean:

Your turn: you shoot.
Enemy turn: he assault you, you DIE!
Your turn: you shoot.
Enemy turn: he assault you, you DIE!
[...]
End game: all your Sisters are dead.

Without defensive Acts of Faith, SoB units are dead in only one assault fase.

Without shooting offensive Acts of Faith (like old _Divine Guidance_), SoB units can't defeat NOTHING in his only one shooting phase before they die in the next enemy assault phase.


[EDIT1] 
I want to add something about the grenades discussion: the Empire now gives assault grenades to all no-assault dedicated units? IG have frag grenades for free; SoB have now frag grenades for "free"... But all the assault dedicated units don't have frag grenades and there aren't "nothing" to give them it or similar.

Why IG and SoB have now frag grenades? Easy, to have or not to have frag grenades for them are the same. 99% of times you'll attack in last.
[/EDIT1]


Maah!!! I'm really angry. Sorry.


----------



## WallWeasels

Kraban said:


> It WAS that way. Nothing stops GW from adding new atribes units. Also it seems logical and they aren't used anywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> I know what they've done to them. Still I have hope that Immos wil be back.
> 
> In the same time "Heavy" Immo seems just a copy of Baal or Banewolf.


Debatable. A sisters codex requires enough new models...id rather he not include more units to redo with arbites  They would be cool but part of arbktes brink c:wh was...witch hunters. Inquisitors do work with local forces, sisters mostly could care less. Now that we've lost the INQ portion...I'd just expect to see mostly Echlessiarch units only. Sadly a heavy immolator does cut the line, but it would be easy to make it their own. There isn't much tha can be done to make the immolator unique while BA still exist. :/ not spess mahreens taking everyones ideas? That's never happened 

40knation: and? This says nothing. No real info, no dates, just the same crap we've heard. Plastics wont come without rules and GW skipped our actual release to fill necrons gap from their delay.


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## Zion

WallWeasels said:


> 40knation: and? This says nothing. No real info, no dates, just the same crap we've heard. Plastics wont come without rules and GW skipped our actual release to fill necrons gap from their delay.


We got rules. Not GOOD rules, but we have rules. And unlike most of those previous plastic kit mentionings this is the first one I've seen that came out after the codex hit (the actual posting on their site was from 28 Aug 2011). Now how good is their information? No idea since I haven't seen their rumors in the past. Either way, it's more than what I found doing my daily check of the internet for Sisters rumors lately(I've got a search set up in my favorites I use that has had decent results before).

Either way, it's a rumor. Take it with salt. And as with all things GW: hope for the best, but be ready for the worst.


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## SilverTabby

If the plastics were ready, a full codex would have been done, not this WDDex. 

Plus these rumours state sprues are 'confirmed' - not that they are made. Any Sisters Codex would have to have those two units in plastic, so I'm sorry, but the words in that rumour are fairly meaningless.


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> If the plastics were ready, a full codex would have been done, not this WDDex.
> 
> Plus these rumours state sprues are 'confirmed' - not that they are made. Any Sisters Codex would have to have those two units in plastic, so I'm sorry, but the words in that rumour are fairly meaningless.


Mind you, I'm not defending the rumor but looking at this from another point of view: Sisters ended up in a position much like the old Chaos Warriors when GW updated Grey Knights. Now I wouldn't be surprised if the possibility of an errata was put forth as a solution but was probably shot down due to the fact they would basically have to redo the codex anyways to make up for the lost units (namely the HQ options it seems). Add the need to push the Necron release back and the idea of putting for a WD codex probably seemed like a good idea. After all, they're showing that they still care about supporting the Sisters as an army, are doing something most of the Sisters players wanted anyways (going back to being pure Sisters) and fixing a lot of rules so they are just covered by the USRs instead.

Honestly I think the REAL codex isn't ready, but they felt the need to do SOMETHING so we got what we got. Now this doesn't mean we will or won't get new models to support it (after all GW is a "model company first" (or so they say) and is primarily interested in pushing models. We may end up seeing a surge of Sisters in plastic in the semi-near future so they can try and push this army a little and see how popular it really is with better model support, or they may hold onto these models for the actual release. 

If it's the latter then we may not be as far off as we think.

But again, this is all supposition and I'm just trying to look at it from their point of view instead of the point of view of a dissapointed fan/player/customer. As much as we bag on GW and act like their a malicious entity, we all know their not. They're a company that is trying it's best while using some really antiquated thinking and buisness models but they're trying. This is just one of those times they stumbled a bit and hopefully they eventually learn that rushing something doesn't show they care or support something, it just shows they were unprepared and got caught with their trousers down.

EDIT: To clarify I don't think models being ready had anything to do with this as much as I don't think the RULES are ready as this rush job showed us. Even if the models are there for new units, if they haven't worked out new rules then obviously there isn't anything to use to play them. I have a feeling that at times the fluff, models and art is the first things they create with new units then the rules to try and fit those other things. Yes there is a fluff/rules difference but for the most part it seems the rules TRY to fit the fluff (at least in a good codex).


----------



## AlexHolker

Zion said:


> They're a shooting army NOW, but what about later, say when we're more Ecclesiastical based units?


There _are_ no more Ecclesiastical based units. The Sisters are the only military force the Ecclesiarchy has.



> Besides, by saying "that's not right with this army" you're saying that the army isn't allowed to expand or improve. You're saying the Sisters can't look at their previous battle strategies and change or improve to better handle the shifting field of battle. And that's not how REAL armies work at all.


That's precisely how real armies work; some advances are dead ends that for one reason or another aren't worth the hassle. The Boulton Paul Defiant is one example; battleships are another. When you're a bunch of humans and the enemy is a bunch of superhuman freaks with acid for blood, at some point you have to acknowledge that trying to beat them at their own game is more costly than doing something else.


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## Zion

AlexHolker said:


> There _are_ no more Ecclesiastical based units. The Sisters are the only military force the Ecclesiarchy has.


Again, see my point about fluff being rewritable. And even then there is room to add different kinds of Sisters into the mix. Say.....Terminator Armor Sisters. And with additions that we got like being able to take units of Crusaders (I'd really love to see this to be an Elite choice and Repentia become the Sisters "Death Company" option. Namely a 0-1 Troop choice that can't hold objectives). 




AlexHolker said:


> That's precisely how real armies work; some advances are dead ends that for one reason or another aren't worth the hassle. The Boulton Paul Defiant is one example; battleships are another. When you're a bunch of humans and the enemy is a bunch of superhuman freaks with acid for blood, at some point you have to acknowledge that trying to beat them at their own game is more costly than doing something else.


Even then they still TRY to find ways to advance things. Additionally we're talking about 40K, where the most insane things are common place. Because of this accepting defeat isn't really an option for ANY of the armies (because it's out of character or would result in their race being completely destroyed). As a whole GW even tends to push the armies expanding and improving their options (though we do see some units get screwed because of it too. (Tyranids)). To say that Sisters can't do the same or can't be rewritten to expand things is rather short sighted since every real codex we've seen so far in 5th Edition has done just that. They take the preexisting army, add options, add new fluff (or adjust the old stuff to make it better) and for the most part they've come out better for it (sorry Nids, you came out about the same, but worse for some of your more classic builds!). When we finally get a full Sisters book that's about what I figure we'll finally get ourselves instead of what we've got now.

And yes I'm overly optimistic but that's because I really like the army and WANT them to be even more awesome. To hope for less just seems like we're selling them short.


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## Suijin

I would make it fairly simple:
Give them a repressor transport (lots of "shooting" included with it)
Make the basic Battle Sisters troops a little cheaper, like 5-10 points
Make Celestians troops choices with more options for taking more meltaguns, or maybe better yet storm bolters (these would end up a good bit more expensive by adding all these options)

Mostly I think if we are a shooting army, with crap assault, then we need to do more damage with our shooting before we die in assault. Something like plasmaguns would be perfect from a rules-mechanics point of view, but I would prefer to keep it to the bolter/melta/flamer trinity, although there are a good number of plasma pistols spread throughout this and previous codex.

The army needs more punch due to lacking ordnance, haywire, lance, etc., and if our thing is melta/bolter/flame then let us have more of those per troop to make up the difference. This is especially true if we are also lacking any fast type transport, so we can only plod across the field getting shot up before we get in range to unload the pile of hurt.


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## WallWeasels

Eccclesiarchy can have units without having an "army". We already have enough fluff to say they have some military or the INQ wouldn't bother to continue monitoring numbers of male forces.
I don't think the Decree Passive will be removed through retcons as it is about as "codex astartes" for SoB as you can get. What we need is a leader...and the seat of Abbess has been empty for years in the lore. Without her we have no one on the high lords, and thus no real representation in the Imperium.
Personally, I fear no force in the Imperium that has no way to move. Yes, sisters have a fleet vaguely mentioned in 2nd edition to be basically fast merchantile transports (oh boy thats scary)...but that's not very military now is it? I know most people are not in the favor of the sisters also being the ordos militant of the WH, but I personally think we should take the position of the "witch hunter" army in 40k. The one step I can think that would improve that presence...blackships are ours. Yes it fucks the telepathica (because people care about wings that'll never get a codex...or much mention at all ever :x), but I don't honestly care. the Inqusition already has its own blackships, why not transfer that to Sisters? 

What I want to see in sisters lore is mostly:
A/ How Orders vary from each other.
B/ What functions do the minor orders provide? Are they military forces or just strict utility? For the sake Hospitalliers have their own wing...and they do much more than fight with just sisters as they work medical missions for the imperium in general. So do orders ask to take them with them or do orders keep their own "apothecarys" on standby, etc?
C/ Get a damned Abbess :x
D/ Define more clearly our "role" in the Imperium. As it stands without being part of the INQ we are just shrine-defenders that happen to hate witches/mutation/heresy. Guard have a pretty solid position in the Imperium: defenders and attackers. Marines are strike force units capable of destroying planets within days. They don't defend things other than their own as its usually left to guard/PDF forces. Sisters without the Inqusition are fairly hard to answer the "what do you want to do for the Imperium" on their job resume  
and thats pretty much it fluff-wise. I would love to see us expanded and I am very curious how they would do this...but in the same way fear excessive changes leading to a change of context. However, I feel my gun has no where to point when playing sisters. Yeah, I hate chaos...yeah, I hate witches...but what do I "do"?

[edit]Suijin it is a bad idea to make battle sisters cost LESS. You are only justifying bad troops by making them cost less. Sisters in C:WH are pretty worth it at 11 points. It is other units that do not make the cut. I will not pay 13 points for a model with SLIGHTLY better combat values...thats identical in other aspects to my troops choice...but can't score objectives. BSS squads are quite good at shooting when you factor DG

IF celestians are troops (and I am not saying this is a terribly bad idea), how are they veterans? what marks them above battle sisters? Hell what sister take place of the elites choice catagory? Repentia? Ew  You either have to nerf battle sisters down to "novice" troops (which defames their function and is an excuse to make a crap unit) and then demote celestians to the "basic" sister...and I would rather not do that. I could see something like celestians being long beards...take one BSS and you can take one celestian unit. Then have a proper elite "Veteran" sister above that. Hell, Dark Heresy has a few good names for ranks of sisters and I wouldn't advise most of them  
I could easily see an "elite" version of seraphim as well. Right now seraphim are very unclear in how they "rank" as sisters. It seems the yare equal to celestians, but celestians in fluff are seemingly higher rank. Yet seraphim are viewed as angelic and holy over celestians. So could easily put a "celestian seraphim" of sorts...although that is kind of "Vanguard Seraphim" in a sense.
Plasmaguns won't make it into sisters. Honestly I don't want them, and I don't want to see them. Plasma pistols are in the book because we had no other pistol choice in 3rd and the superior model has them equipped...so GW is stuck with them. Same with the plasma gun on the priest lol


----------



## Suijin

I see your points WW, I agreed not to have plasmaguns in the army, I said rules-wise they would fit as very shooty/killy to fill a hole in our army. I wanted to stick with melta/stormbolter/flamer on individual models to up our kill power. I feel that we lack overall firepower shooting especially considering our lack of assault, speed on the field, psychic defense, etc.


----------



## WallWeasels

Suijin said:


> I see your points WW, I agreed not to have plasmaguns in the army, I said rules-wise they would fit as very shooty/killy to fill a hole in our army. I wanted to stick with melta/stormbolter/flamer on individual models to up our kill power. I feel that we lack overall firepower shooting especially considering our lack of assault, speed on the field, psychic defense, etc.


Pretty much. Close range armies are VERY hard to balance. Because you can't just wipe out all units within your range...or assault is underpowered against it and long range is the only option. Sorry I seemed to skip the second part that said you'd rather keep the trinity. 
I think sisters can be given a pretty big bump in firepower purely through the use of 40k's fluff "weapon mods" :laugh: Bolters, including heavy, all have many variants and ammo types and sisters shouldn't be excluded from that. I'd love to see a unit that included all stalker pattern bolters that were psuedo-snipers. Give them infiltrate and maybe a weapon option or two (stalker heavy bolter ) and I'd consider it for a decent price. 
Hell it would easily allow for an expansion of unit types because of it. 
Seraphim being able to gun-kata their pistols in combat would allow for a "S4" melee human, with power weapons being covered by flamer/melta pistols (although maybe flamers = power weapon and melta = powerfist). Add a retributor and celestian unit-upgrade SC and you can give them some fancy cool rule(s) to expand options. 
Be interesting if there was an "ex-mistress, now canoness" SC who made the army more into a pentitent crusade filled with repentia (as troops), arcos, pentient engines and preachers :biggrin: Because, well, from what I could tell in fluff Mistresses were actually very high ranking sisters (and honored for what they do).


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## Suijin

A very salty rumor about 6th ed. is to allow using the strength of the pistol in assault for determining wounds. This would provide a much needed bump to sisters overall since they have bolt pistols on the basic troops and the Seraphim can have IP and the others either a plasma pistol or still bolt pistols.

So maybe some of this codex is forward thinking and well planned out (HAHAHAHAHA) for changes that are coming up in 6th ed.


----------



## andrewm9

When I was designing my fandex for Sisters, I gave Celestians of all stripes something I called the Ophanim pattern bolter which is essentially assault 2 with a 12" range (this is similar to the Angelus pattern boltgun), but I also made it so they gave them +1 Strength in close combat because of the attached sarissa in addition to giving them a 2nd attack. The unit is suitably expensive. For options I gave them the ability to swap the gun out for a bolt pistol/chainsword combo for any model or the ability to buy 1 power weapon attachment per 3 models in the unit. Of course I had them keep the 4Initiative/WS too along with the hitting on 3's against most models. Further options included some assault weapon additions and the Superior got access to infernus pistols, hand flamers, power weapons, and eviscerators. The whole unit had frags and kraks as well.


----------



## Kraban

May be it would be more interesting to turn celestians in some kind of sterngard veterans, giving them ammo choice instead of faint increase in melee combat?


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## Suijin

For the love of the Emperor, priests need a point cost reduction or something. They have to be the worst choice out of the entire codex, but hey you can take an infinite amount of them, and they don't take up a FOC slot, not that I feel the real need or want to have anything but SoB in an army.

They are almost like giving the demonettes of slaanesh a character for 40 points that gives them a reroll to shooting attacks.


----------



## Shandathe

Suijin said:


> For the love of the Emperor, priests need a point cost reduction or something. They have to be the worst choice out of the entire codex, but hey you can take an infinite amount of them, and they don't take up a FOC slot, not that I feel the real need or want to have anything but SoB in an army.
> 
> They are almost like giving the demonettes of slaanesh a character for 40 points that gives them a reroll to shooting attacks.


Oh come on, they used to be completely counterproductive. Now instead of shooting your army in the foot they're actually contributing something you'll rarely if ever want to use and you're STILL not satisfied?


----------



## WallWeasels

The only "useful" priest was in the chapter approved sisters...and that was because he was 12 points with a ccw/bp and you had to get him to make any non-seraphim/unit-led-by-canoness to be faithful (he also gave +1 faith). He really wasn't required and thus removed from that function in C:WH...and then he was useless. What C:WH priests needed to do was give a chance to gain (or just flatout gain) holy rage...or atleast the movement bonus from it. Then you could ATLEAST hope to footslog a sister horde with h.rage + run


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## Troublehalf

I have to say, I doubt it will be Necrons in October. This is because last year October was pretty quite.... a few daemon models. However, in November they released Dark Eldar, which was huge.... just on preorders alone, they outsold Blood Angels and Space Wolves COMBINED PRIOR to the preorder release order option. So, I say Necrons in November to mimic last years Dark Eldar. You have to look at this not as "What needs updating" but as a buisness model, they are not going to suddenly release stuff in October when they did it in November before.

Also, Brettonians have very little they can add which is 1. Big and 2. Is relevant to their background..... So, they need to find something big to mimic the big releases, such as Warphinx and the Orc Spider, Terrorgiest and stuff. But they will be updated, soon, cause they are currently the oldest army in Warhammer, in terms of codexs. Followed by Wood Elves. However Bret work well in 8th and Wood Elves are easy to think up big models... like this one (Not a GW model, but is so cool!).


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## WallWeasels

That is one amazing model  But the point was all rumors pointed to necrons being this year around...now. But early~mid summer we recieved some rumors of a delay and pushback...then literally within about 2-3 weeks of that we got wind of a WDex for sisters...which to me is what I follow by. We had sisters rumors for plastics christmas/early-2012 and then POOF gone...replaced by Wdex after the necron rumors


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## Troublehalf

Oh I don't disagree Necrons will be updated. I just mean it's most likey will be November and not October


----------



## WallWeasels

Troublehalf said:


> Oh I don't disagree Necrons will be updated. I just mean it's most likey will be November and not October


Probably, it is soon for sure. I am really bagging for sisters to last a short time with this wdex :/ Its honestly killed all my inspiration to play my sisters. Well congrats GW, you successfully made want to actually finishing painting models. Because fuck all if im playing with this crap.


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## MadCowCrazy

I need a complete list of the different Ordos related to the Sisters of Battle.
The ones I know from the top of my head are:
Orders-Militant which comprises all the different Sisters of Battle Ordos.

Then we have the three Non-Militant:
Hospitaller
Famulous
Dialogus

Then we have the Orders Minoris
Order of the Eternal Gate for are responsible for finding relics and such for the Ecclesiarchy
Order of the White Rose who's task in unknown
Order of the Golden Light which is a minor Orders Militant.

There any other than these? I need all the info I can get on them.


----------



## TeDasCuen

Hi.

@MadCowCrazy:

*Order Sabine:* Work with the _Missionarus Galaxia_ (the missionaries organization). These sisters infiltrate into new discovered planets at the limit of known galaxy. Live together the local human civilization. Can promote the Imperial Creed clandestinely or uprising rebellions against the local creed, being considered prophets. Basically they prepare local people for the arrival of the missionaries.

*Order Pronatus:* I'm not sure if the Order of the Ethernal Gate belong to this no militant Order type. They recover, preserve, study and repair valuable items for the Ecclesiarchy: relics from Saints, too dangerous or important artifacts recovers by the Imperial Forces. Other task is preserve and bless Standard and Icons of other Orders and even of some Astartes Chapters.


If you want, I can prepare a more detailed post with extra information about Sororitas and Ecclesiarchy hierarchy. But this plus the Order types that you have written are all that I guess exist.


----------



## Suijin

Don't the Arcos have Strength 5? The second half of the codex has them there and the GK codex has them at S5 also.

From your list:
Arco-Flagellants 5/3/4/3/1/3/4/8/-


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## MadCowCrazy

They are S3 in the unit entry and S5 in the army section. Kinda like Celestine has IC in the unit section but not in the army section if I remember correctly.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> They are S3 in the unit entry and S5 in the army section. Kinda like Celestine has IC in the unit section but not in the army section if I remember correctly.


Yeah, when you corner Cruddance could you ask him about that? 

Personally I'm counting Celestine as an IC (matches the Acts of Faith rule for her granting ) and the Arcos as S5 (to match their other varients) and my opponents are okay with that, but yeah....within a week of release and it already needs an Erratta? Is that a record?

I've actually had some decent success with this book. 1 Win and 1 Tie versus Blood Angels (only two games so far and both have been decently close). They definitely lend themselves more to a "One-Two Punch" sort of usage. I found the Battle Conclave to be pretty strong (I'm currently considering running 3 of each with Jacobus (Crusaders to supply the staying power and low initiave Power Weapon wounds, Death Cult Assasains to provide some initial first strike Power Weapon hits, and the Arcos to help wreck vehicles and help throw some massed wounds to help overwhelm larger units/units with good saves). Bubblewrapping Jacobus with the other members of the squad helps of course too.

Anyone else hoping they become an actual Elite choice in the next codex?


----------



## mahavira

Don't know that this is the right venue, but is there any chance of renaming the "Witch Hunters" army list forum "Sisters of Battle"?

I will be putting my first battle in this Sunday vs DE.

Good work on taking out the Blood Angel trash, btw, Zion, I hate them more than any other kind of variant marine.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> Don't know that this is the right venue, but is there any chance of renaming the "Witch Hunters" army list forum "Sisters of Battle"?
> 
> I will be putting my first battle in this Sunday vs DE.
> 
> Good work on taking out the Blood Angel trash, btw, Zion, I hate them more than any other kind of variant marine.


Heh, thanks. Honestly this codex is looking more solid than it did before. I'm by no means an AWFUL player but I'm hardly a GREAT one so I know some of the additional success is coming from some of the changes in the codex.

I also made one 6++ on Sunday much to my amusement (it was on a Battle Sister).

And I wouldn't harp on the Blood Angles too much. That's were I get my Inferno Pistols from to put on my Seraphim (Thanks Death Company Blood Angles Space Marine! Sorry I had to cut your hands off to do it!). I wanted to go with the more musket-pistol looking one, but seeing as there aren't any of those just floating around I'll take what I can get.:biggrin:

EDIT: Thinking about forum renaming, could we get the Witch Hunters tactics one renamed too? And I don't know if anyone else is, but I'm taking my best shot at writing a series of tactics articles for the units, and the army as a whole based on what's been working for me (suggestions are welcome as well! Credit will be given of course too!).

EDIT Part Dues: Rhino + Heavy Flamer + Fire Points = Cheap Immolater. Think about it, it's only slightly less effective than the Twin-Linked Immolater, moves the same speed and is 10 points less. :biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

How much is the 6++ worth? From my calculations it should be worth 2pts per Battle Sister. I base this on that you make 1 in 6 and a BS costs 12 points so that should mean it's worth 2pts per Battle Sister, the more the model is worth the more it should be worth.


----------



## AlexHolker

MadCowCrazy said:


> How much is the 6++ worth? From my calculations it should be worth 2pts per Battle Sister. I base this on that you make 1 in 6 and a BS costs 12 points so that should mean it's worth 2pts per Battle Sister, the more the model is worth the more it should be worth.


You don't always get a 1 in 6 reduction in casualties. Against anything with AP 4 or worse it provides no reduction in casualties at all. It also doesn't provide other benefits of greater numbers: primarily, greater damage output.


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## Revarien

Hey, MadCowCrazy... would you do me a favor and suggest making the theme of fire and purging more prevalent? I mean, in all the fluff I've read (and I've gotten most of it down), that is alllll the lasses are about.

My big suggestion is some fiery piece of wargear... or incendiary grenades that make people take dangerous terrain tests when they charge... amazing crap like that they just totally overlooked for the sisters... or witch-finders that lets you target psykers or psyker squads and on a hit, the psyker must take an initiative test or lose psychic powers for a turn or something off the wall... just give us our damned unique crap back...

Sorry MCC, not nerd-raging at you... just hate that they took the flavor out of these gals, of which I have over 120 normal sisters (IN METAL *COUGH*), and all the tanks and heavy weapons that could fill out the entire force org chart.

Just wish they would pay attention to what they're doing... and stop screwing us over.

*edit* another thing: maybe an 'prometheum strike'... like a swath of flame templates that can scatter, but since it's done at low altitudes, it only scatters D6... or something... I mean... yeesh! they could do ANYTHING and they missed opportunities like they were nothing!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Revarien said:


> Hey, MadCowCrazy... would you do me a favor and suggest making the theme of fire and purging more prevalent? I mean, in all the fluff I've read (and I've gotten most of it down), that is alllll the lasses are about.
> 
> My big suggestion is some fiery piece of wargear... or incendiary grenades that make people take dangerous terrain tests when they charge... amazing crap like that they just totally overlooked for the sisters... or witch-finders that lets you target psykers or psyker squads and on a hit, the psyker must take an initiative test or lose psychic powers for a turn or something off the wall... just give us our damned unique crap back...
> 
> Sorry MCC, not nerd-raging at you... just hate that they took the flavor out of these gals, of which I have over 120 normal sisters (IN METAL *COUGH*), and all the tanks and heavy weapons that could fill out the entire force org chart.
> 
> Just wish they would pay attention to what they're doing... and stop screwing us over.
> 
> *edit* another thing: maybe an 'prometheum strike'... like a swath of flame templates that can scatter, but since it's done at low altitudes, it only scatters D6... or something... I mean... yeesh! they could do ANYTHING and they missed opportunities like they were nothing!




Most of what you have mentioned I have already compiled into a compilation I hope will make it to Cruddace. I suggest 2 grenades, Promethium Grenade and Refined Promethium Grenade.
Just checked, the entire document is 51 pages long. I hope it will make it to Cruddace and that perhaps he might take some of the things into consideration.

If I find him at Games Day UK I will see if he is willing to do a small interview, most of the game devs do not agree to this though so I doubt he'd be willing to answer questions. People who make artwork etc are more willing, just check out my vids from last year and you will see what I mean. I tried to get a small interview at every booth there from developers, sculptors etc and what I have in my 2 vids is what I got.

I should start a bribe paypal account where ppl could donate money and I would offer it to the people at Games Day in exchange for an interview. It does make sense since it's a convention you pay for to get into to pay full retail prices on the company products...


----------



## Revarien

Thanks MCC.

I can't really hate on the game devs... I mean, I obviously hate what they made, but they're only given so much freedom, I'm sure... that's why I have a hard time understanding the 'Mat Ward Hate' and the 'Cruddace Hate' that go on on the internet... 

So it's not an issue of 'because so and so wrote it, I hate it/him'... in fact, I'm grateful that they have some semblance of continuity in this incarnation of 40k... though, that's the thing wrong with sisters: they don't really match the fluff that's out there... the sisters may be a fanatical bunch, but they're calculating (cannonness' don't do anything without a thoroughly thought out plan), intelligent (familuous' long term plans are like a web of intrigue!) and heavily armed/equipped (the ecclessiarch is only dwarfed in tech by the mechanicus! Because the church keeps all the powerful ancient tech for their own!)... THIS is what makes them a dangerous army, not JUST faith. Sure they're faith and fire, but they are also smarts and equipment... this is not reflected at all in this 'codex'... Hell... I'm sure half of us (the SoB players... we don't play this army because we want to power-game after all) could have come out with a dex with 3 times the flavor than this thing...

'course, I'm such a fan of the army, it didn't stop me from taking these pages and getting them lamented and spiral bound into some shambling form of a book.

All this said and I wanted to thank you MCC for talking to him... if ya can... just: thanks for the effort!
Ok... done n-raging for the day, lol. I'll go back to my normal calm self, lol.


----------



## Grogbart

Revarien said:


> 'course, I'm such a fan of the army, it didn't stop me from taking these pages and getting them *lamented* and spiral bound into some shambling form of a book.


That's a good one!k:
If it was intended and IF my English isn't letting me down.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Yeah, he probably meant *laminated* ... :security:

But ... I have a weak spot for the Lamenters ... I admit. :blush:


----------



## Kettu

Revarien; you forgot the most incoruptible force under Grey Knights.
&
Most elite force under Space Marines.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Revarien; you forgot the most incoruptible force under Grey Knights.
> &
> Most elite force under Space Marines.


Doesn't the Blood Tide fluff bit in the GK codex prove that the Sisters are less corruptible than Grey Knights? The Grey Knights needed blood of innocents to protect themselves while some of the Sisters could just walk through the stuff without being corrupted.

From a correct point of view I'd say sisters are less corruptible than all SM chapters and supposed to be the most elite fighting force after SM, this however is not really portrayed that well on the tabletop.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Doesn't the Blood Tide fluff bit in the GK codex prove that the Sisters are less corruptible than Grey Knights? The Grey Knights needed blood of innocents to protect themselves while some of the Sisters could just walk through the stuff without being corrupted.
> 
> From a correct point of view I'd say sisters are less corruptible than all SM chapters and supposed to be the most elite fighting force after SM, this however is not really portrayed that well on the tabletop.


You got to love that BLOOD is what you need to protect yourself from a BLOODTHIRSTER no less.

But yes, better protection from psychic powers would be nice (say a 4++ against psychic powers instead of the normal 6++ and immunity against force weapons (like we used to have)?). 

Actually now that I think about it I think that instead of offensive anti-psychic tricks (like Grey Knights) I think the Sisters should go the other way and be more defensive against them. That puts them on the opposite end of the spectrum from Grey Knights in more than one way (no psykers, more troops, all girls, and defensive abilities that protect them from psychic powers instead of making them more powerful against them offensively).


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> Actually now that I think about it I think that instead of offensive anti-psychic tricks (like Grey Knights) I think the Sisters should go the other way and be more defensive against them. That puts them on the opposite end of the spectrum from Grey Knights in more than one way (no psykers, more troops, all girls, and defensive abilities that protect them from psychic powers instead of making them more powerful against them offensively).


Like getting to roll against any power targeting or affecting them (either helpful or hurtful) and if you roll a 5+ then the power is negated?


----------



## Suijin

Kettu said:


> Like getting to roll against any power targeting or affecting them (either helpful or hurtful) and if you roll a 5+ then the power is negated?


*Brilliant!!!!* Where did you come up with such a concept??? Maybe they could include that rule with the "Shield of Faith" rule SoB have.






Yes, I have been nicknamed Sarcastro as my superhero name.


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## Kettu

Suijin said:


> Yes, I have been nicknamed Sarcastro as my superhero name.


Now that's a hero I could get behind.

They could take a few bullets for me.:laugh:


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> Like getting to roll against any power targeting or affecting them (either helpful or hurtful) and if you roll a 5+ then the power is negated?


Make it a 4+ so it actually matters (increasing the odds from roughly 30% to 50%). That 5+ never seems to come around when I need it. Or make it a 5+ and failing that the Sisters get a 4++ against anything that would inflict wounds instead of the 6+ (they're faith is powerful enough to stem the psyker's abilities from inflicting them harm).


But yes, bringing back some of the old special rules would be nice, especially since Sisters are one of the few armies that have no psykers or psychic defense and would benefit the most by getting some defense rolled up into the list. The Sisters have enough trouble taking volumes of wounds, it's just adding insult to injury to leave them so open to being torn apart by psychic powers.


----------



## Revarien

Haha, yeah, I meant 'Laminated', but it was a accidentally clever error [read: maybe subconscious? ] to lament the 'new codex' too... lol!

As for incorruptibility, yeah, it would be nice to have some mechanic for it like the old dex, but even re-rolling shield of faith when dealing with psychic powers or getting a reroll to any test involving psychic powers (e.g. negating), would be nice.


----------



## Azezel

So, now that the dust has settled, has anyone managed to make a Sisters list that flies?

I've been trying and I just don't see how I can keep my head above water without abusing the non-Sororitas units.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I've only played 2 games so far, got pretty much wiped of the table. First list was just to try almost everything, the other was a foot army with 82 Sisters at 1500pts vs Tyranids, got wiped out by round 4.

As for psychic things in the suggestion document I've made I suggest that Null Rods, Power Stakes and Psyocculums should be available to more units.
I made a unit entry I call Representatives and it works like the priest does, 0-5 in an army and in it I put Hospitaller, Dialogus, Priest, Pronatus, Sabine and Witch Hunter/Finder. The Witch Hunter/Finder idea was basically that it's someone from the Ordo Hereticus that is not a psyker but has access to psyker hunting gear like the 3 mentioned above. This would give some protection and killing potentials of psykers to the Sisters as that's one of the things the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy likes.

Fluff says that Confessors in particular love to start witch hunts on worlds so I gave the 3 options to them as well.


----------



## Zion

I've played two games as well (the first one was a fun list one against a Blood Angels player who also played a fun list (non-optimized) where I nearly tabled him at the end of Turn 7, the second he played an improved version of his 2K tournament list and I fought him to a draw in Annihilation (Celestine failed one too many saves that turn and gave him an extra KP)).

My 2K list had 3x BSS Squads (Power Swords, Combi-Meltas and Melta Bombs on the Superiors) in Rhinos with Meltas and Heavy Flamers, a Seraphim Squad of 6 with Melta Pistols, a Repentia Squad of 9 and a Priest (they used one of the BSS Rhinos), Celestine, Jacobus (who worked with a Battle Conclave of 4 Crusaders, 3 Death Cult Assassins and 2 Arco-Flaggelants VERY nicely. Seriously, these things need to be an Elite choice because otherwise I'm running more Repentia Squads but that means more Grand Theft Rhino) and three Exorcists (which he couldn't manage to kill...at all).

Overall, it's not a bad list, but most people's are going to look something like that. The differences seem to be if you take Dominions or Seraphim, Exorcists or Retributors and how many Meltas you take in your BSS squads. The basic ideas are still the same, and the general tactics are the same. Kill the big, ultra-killy things your opponent fields first, then work on mopping up from there.


----------



## [email protected]

Zion said:


> Kill the big, ultra-killy things your opponent fields first, then work on mopping up from there.


 It seems to me that the basic tactic across all 40k is this, and the SoB just have a very finite, static list format that points it out really well. This brings to mind something that maybe they should be working on. Finding ways to make smaller things turn into mas uber-things for some, hopefully, rational reason. 

J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> It seems to me that the basic tactic across all 40k is this, and the SoB just have a very finite, static list format that points it out really well. This brings to mind something that maybe they should be working on. Finding ways to make smaller things turn into mas uber-things for some, hopefully, rational reason.
> 
> J


Pretty much. If you're not working on target prioritization and backing up your Sisters with units that can handle a little close combat better than the more shooty squads, then well, you're going to lose a lot. Even then, you'll suffer from anyone who can level mass shooting on your troops, or move faster than you can. You can win with the army, but some of it's going to be based your opponent's skill level, how well you play and plain luck with the dice.


----------



## mahavira

Doubt this means anything, but an immolator I ordered arrived and it had no box, just a ziplock bag marked games workshop, and no instructions. Maybe working on a new kit?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Every Exorcist I've ordered have come in a brown cardboard box without instructions.


----------



## Azezel

Zion said:


> 3x BSS Squads (Power Swords, Combi-Meltas and Melta Bombs on the Superiors)


My reading of the army list is that that is no-longer legal. It's power weapon OR combi-weapon. 

Your list does back up my own feelings rhat the new rules require a lot of non-Sororitas units to be effective, though.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Every Exorcist I've ordered have come in a brown cardboard box without instructions.


True, but for the most part I didn't find the Exorcist to need assembly instructions, just trimming to get some things to fit (metal shrinks when it cools in the mold so it's usually JUST too small to fit onto that Immolator top plate). You can find instructions online of course, and I do recommend learning how to pin models if you don't know how.



Azezel said:


> My reading of the army list is that that is no-longer legal. It's power weapon OR combi-weapon.
> 
> Your list does back up my own feelings rhat the new rules require a lot of non-Sororitas units to be effective, though.


Since the Superior can replace her boltgun *and/or* bolt pistol she can take both. But by taking the combi-melta she isn't doubly armed and thus doesn't get an extra attack she desperately needs in close combat to try and kill things that charge the squad. It's a hard trade off, a one shot melta gun and no extra attack, or keep the bolt pistol and suck it up (times like this I wish the bolt pistols could be combi-weapons).


----------



## [email protected]

Zion said:


> But by taking the combi-melta she isn't doubly armed and thus doesn't get an extra attack she desperately needs in close combat to try and kill things that charge the squad. It's a hard trade off, a one shot melta gun and no extra attack, or keep the bolt pistol and suck it up (times like this I wish the bolt pistols could be combi-weapons).


That's why, at least so far, my feeling is to take the combi-flamer. She's going to do more damage with that in the pre-assault, AT aside for a moment, but YMMV. 

J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> That's why, at least so far, my feeling is to take the combi-flamer. She's going to do more damage with that in the pre-assault, AT aside for a moment, but YMMV.
> 
> J


I don't usually assault with my BS squads personally, but I do see the point. One of the things I like doing now is taking Heavy Flamers and firing them out of the hatch of my Rhinos. It's pretty effective, cheaper than an Immolator, and has the added bonus of being still there (most of the time) if the Rhino gets popped.


----------



## [email protected]

Zion said:


> I don't usually assault with my BS squads personally, but I do see the point. One of the things I like doing now is taking Heavy Flamers and firing them out of the hatch of my Rhinos. It's pretty effective, cheaper than an Immolator, and has the added bonus of being still there (most of the time) if the Rhino gets popped.


I meant to say in the pre-counter-assault. 

I only assault if I can lock, avoid fire, have no choice, or win/wipe out the unit. Which, come to think of it, are the only reasons BSS should be assaulting. 

I forego the Heavy Flamers due to cost. I don't have my *ahem* codex handy, but aren't they kind of pricey?

J


----------



## Zion

[email protected] said:


> I meant to say in the pre-counter-assault.
> 
> I only assault if I can lock, avoid fire, have no choice, or win/wipe out the unit. Which, come to think of it, are the only reasons BSS should be assaulting.
> 
> I forego the Heavy Flamers due to cost. I don't have my *ahem* codex handy, but aren't they kind of pricey?
> 
> J


True but for ten points less than the current Immolator and the ability to carry 5 more models (though you lose Twin-Linked goodness there) it's not a bad deal to stick one in a Rhino.


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> Every Exorcist I've ordered have come in a brown cardboard box without instructions.


Interesting, mine came in an official box with instructions: must vary by country/continent.


----------



## SilverTabby

Azezel said:


> So, now that the dust has settled, has anyone managed to make a Sisters list that flies?
> 
> I've been trying and I just don't see how I can keep my head above water without abusing the non-Sororitas units.


So far I've written 4 lists I'm happy with, and have tested one. All are in the Witch Hunter lists section. I'm playing either a 1k or 1.5k game this wednesday, so will be fielding one of those again or an expanded one vs Dark Eldar. I'll let you know how it goes...


----------



## Zion

Phased out a foot Necron list at 2K today. Those 6++ on the vehicles become pretty useful when you have to make a lot of them.

Table Quarters and Denied Flank Deployments really help the army.


----------



## Suijin

Bah, forum ate my post.

Anyway, I heard that they made the WD codex the way they did for reasons, but that is like saying water is wet.

So there is probably hope for the sisters yet.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> Bah, forum ate my post.
> 
> Anyway, I heard that they made the WD codex the way they did for reasons, but that is like saying water is wet.
> 
> So there is probably hope for the sisters yet.


I'm always game to hear more about GW's design philosophy. Did you hear anything specific or was it a general sort of statement?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The rumour that the WD release was poor so it wouldn't compete with the Grey Knights? That the codex will get the real overhaul in a year or two?

This is the latest I've heard but it's also the same thing I've heard for the past few years...


----------



## Grogbart

Suijin said:


> So there is probably hope for the sisters yet.


What's hope?!? GW failing at deliberately failing the next Sister Codex so it accidentally becomes good?

I've had my second game with the WDex today and both games went so horribly wrong, they didn't teach me anything!

First game against Dark Eldar began with a bit of luck. One of my Battle Squads got shot by some 40 shots, received a total of 19 wounds, of which I managed to only fail three armour saves! Great! But three out of twelve models was enough to force a moral check upon them, which of course failed. Also failed the Act of Faith to regroup them next turn and off of the board they went, in an eleven Inch move!
St Celestine did assault an enemy unit with an joined HQ (WS6 I6, perfect target I thought!). Six attacks, four wounds, all of which were saved. In return the enemy HQ did two wounds against which I only had 4++, failed one of them, the joined unit did one wound, against which I failed my armour save, and since St Celestine is fearless I had to save two further wounds and again I managed to roll a one. So St Celestine was dead and she didn't manage to get up the rest of the game!
Acts of Faith weren't successful when I needed them (even with Seraphim able to reroll) and the ones I did succeed (from getting rid of leftover Faithpoints) I managed to roll only twos to hit with my Battle Sisters!

The game today against Blood Angels went pretty much the same, except for there was no lucky bit. Miscalculated the reach of an enemy jump unit and St Celestine was kill second turn by a infernus pistol. This time she managed to get up again (on turn five!) with one wound (what else!), right next to a five man Assault Marine unit. One heavy flamer, six attacks on the assault and she didn't do even one kill. The Assault Marines on the other hand caused one wound and guess what I rolled for that armour save... (game ended that turn!)
The Ecclesiarchal Enclave, with Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders and Jacobus in a Rhino, did at least do their job: completely wipe out an enemy unit of your choice and get wiped out the turn after. What left a bitter taste today, was that my Conclave was pretty much wiped out (all but one Assassin) by just two flamers and four bolt pistols shared by two enemy units. Can you imagine the many failed Feel no Pain rolls? The left over Assassin tried to assault a four man Assault Squad afterwards, didn't do a single wound and got killed (again) by a single wound. 
My opponent (buddy) on the other hand... first round he had three shots to cross the distance to my army: two lascannons (from LasPlas Razorbacks) and a Hunter-Killer Missile. Lascannon against my first Exorcist: three, six, five, destroyed. Lascannon agaisnt my second Exorcist: four, five, three, weapon destroyed. And the Missile also exploded a Rhino. I used the very same dice as him! Yet I wasn't able to kill a single Assault Marine from shooting at it with two whole Battle Squads (22 Sisters, including a Multi-Melta and two meltaguns) and two Rhinos (granted, he had a Sanuinary Priest in that unit).

As you might tell, I'm quite depressed right now, so please forgive the whining, the lack of further insight into the new WDex and the complete waste of time reading my post! I just needed to let it out somewhere and people outside the hobby tend to lack a certain sympathy, to be a good shoulder to cry on. So again, sorry and good night!


----------



## Suijin

Well mostly a general comment, but with actual knowledge behind it. No specifics as to what would make them better with rules changes or whatever.

Overall it is super secret squirrel with GW play testing. I did not get this rumor from the www.


----------



## Suijin

That's insanely bad luck there Grogbart, but it does happen. I had 2 exorcists destroyed in one turn by one melta shot each, and they had their smoke launchers activated but failed to cover save.

You not getting many kills using power weapons is pretty abnormal, but again does happen. I can see the BSS thing about losing LD after being hit in shooting phase being an issue for us. I guess the only defense we would have really would be Arch Confessor Kyrinov, or mearly meching up. Not really that good a choice either way.

I agree that LD is a big weak point for us as an army, along with other things.


----------



## SilverTabby

Suijin said:


> I can see the BSS thing about losing LD after being hit in shooting phase being an issue for us. I guess the only defense we would have really would be Arch Confessor Kyrinov, or mearly meching up. Not really that good a choice either way.
> 
> I agree that LD is a big weak point for us as an army, along with other things.


As there are no negative modifiers on 99% of morale checks following shooting, there's really little you can do about Ld tests for shooting. Stubborn doesn't help. St Lucius never helped. Everyone hates Fearless for the negative aspects in combat (though having Kyrinov nearby would be useful for shooting and you can move him away for combat...). 

It was always an issue before, as we had nothing to help with it then either. The AoF that made you rally worked the same way back then. The only difference was that everyone could use it, but the odds of pulling it off changed, rather than being a set 3+ (so long as your Vet is alive).

If you're looking for positives about running away from shooting, it does mean that you're on an auto 3+ for the Act to rally in your next turn (and Simulacrums aren't affected by being broken), and unit size isn't an issue like it would be for almost every other army... :wink:

In my experience of playing, I only ever used the rallying AoF in C:WH twice. Ever. Every other time I was simply wiped out, or ran off the board before getting the chance to rally. 

@Grogbart: It sounds like you have had terrible dice luck more than anything. It seems that those who are trying to take their older WH tactics and apply it to this new WDDex are having a hard time. Maybe if you try writing a list that ignores the old codex and takes this one at it's strengths (it really does have some, I promise!) you may have some better luck?


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> @Grogbart: It sounds like you have had terrible dice luck more than anything. It seems that those who are trying to take their older WH tactics and apply it to this new WDDex are having a hard time. Maybe if you try writing a list that ignores the old codex and takes this one at it's strengths (it really does have some, I promise!) you may have some better luck?


I have to agree. I played a little of the Codex: Witch Hunters and have had to change how I approach the army a bit. 

For the record I really do miss the defensive possibilities you could crank out with the old list (being able to take Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer termies in close combat and occasionally win (by luck) was pretty awesome).


----------



## Suijin

BoSL would help some before as you could use your Canoness LD many times for that roll, so a 10 vs a 9. Not a big difference, but a good bit in odds of failing (7 out of 36 vs 3 out of 36).

Yeah, I never used the regroup faith power either much.

Yeah, I have yet played a game with the new codex, but I am certainly throwing out any stategies from the previous codex. I am torn between taking a plasma pistol or eviscerator for the Seraphim superior. She can shoot both pistols or just the one and then have the eviscerator for melee.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> BoSL would help some before as you could use your Canoness LD many times for that roll, so a 10 vs a 9. Not a big difference, but a good bit in odds of failing (7 out of 36 vs 3 out of 36).
> 
> Yeah, I never used the regroup faith power either much.
> 
> Yeah, I have yet played a game with the new codex, but I am certainly throwing out any stategies from the previous codex. I am torn between taking a plasma pistol or eviscerator for the Seraphim superior. She can shoot both pistols or just the one and then have the eviscerator for melee.


I've been giving my Superiors Bolt Pistols and Power Weapons to help bail the unit out of combat, or at least drag some wounds out of the assaulting unit before I crumble completely. Then again I'm not a real big fan of plasma pistols since I would like to keep my LD9 models alive to keep from insta-losing a unit from scattering like rabbits.

Out of everything I've seen in the book, I'd say I miss Eviscerators and Inferno Pistols in my squads the most. I1 wounds were great because it keeps wound allocation shenanigans from occurring (like sticking it on an unimportant model who has to make a bunch of saves it'll likely fail anyways), and that S6 REALLY helped when you needed to do some damage to some T4 models (the vehicle popping abilites were well worth the points, even if they were rather high to field).

But with that gone, Power Weapons have been my stand-by.


----------



## mahavira

Actually, for regular squads plasma has a whole new lease on life: if you're using the act of faith you reroll those pesky gets hot 1's, and between that and your 3+ save you should almost never lose a superior (provided you have a faith point handy for that unit). I'm going to test combi plasmas on basic sister superiors to see if they're better than pistols (I rarely got more than one shot with the plasma pistol, so two shots when it matters and a bolter for the rest of the time looks good).

For seraphim, it occurs to me that as a unit they're already admirably good at shooting for jump troops, and a bit more oomph in cc when you move in to finish off the unit may be what you need.


----------



## Zion

mahavira said:


> Actually, for regular squads plasma has a whole new lease on life: if you're using the act of faith you reroll those pesky gets hot 1's, and between that and your 3+ save you should almost never lose a superior (provided you have a faith point handy for that unit). I'm going to test combi plasmas on basic sister superiors to see if they're better than pistols (I rarely got more than one shot with the plasma pistol, so two shots when it matters and a bolter for the rest of the time looks good).
> 
> For seraphim, it occurs to me that as a unit they're already admirably good at shooting for jump troops, and a bit more oomph in cc when you move in to finish off the unit may be what you need.


I'm actually starting to use them to soften units up for Celestine. With her heavy flamer, and their ability to bring some nice shooting I'm looking as making them her support unit (though assaulting with just her and not keeping her in the squad to ensure that I don't lose her to a bad moral check and the inability to regroup resulting in her running off the board) to do massed shooting against the unit she's aiming at hitting so she stands a better chance at wrecking it's face. :biggrin:

Actually a lot of my current tactic involves using one unit to do the initial softening of a unit before slamming into it with a more CC dedicated unit (Battle Conclaves, Repentia or Celestine namely) and it's been working pretty good. It protects the regular Sisters from being shot and assaulted by the wounded unit (providing it survived and didn't break) and in more extreme situations the Battle Sisters can charge in to add another weight of attacks on the next turn if the close combat is still going. If I for some reason get wiped we just shoot them again and hope we're not in charge range. :wink:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm starting to prepare for Games Day UK, I will try to find Cruddace and have an interview with him. If there is anything you'd like me to ask him send me a pm with the question.
If there is anything you'd like me to ask any of the developers send me a pm with:
Persons Name: Question you'd like me to ask.

I can't guarantee the person you want me to ask the question will be at Games Day UK or that I will find him/her but I'll try.

I can't really ask insulting questions like : Cruddace why are you such a retard, why is the Sisters WD codex such a pile of shit, why dont you just go die in a fire so someone else might get your job.
I can't walk up to him and punch him either, perhaps if I get a £5000 donation but that's not likely to happen.

I wont ask any questions posted in this thread, if you want me to ask something then PM me the question. I need your questions by Friday next week.


----------



## shaantitus

MadCowCrazy said:


> I can't walk up to him and punch him either, perhaps if I get a £5000 donation but that's not likely to happen.


Sounds like you are a hitman. But only non-fatal hits. Cool


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I can't really ask insulting questions like : Cruddace why are you such a retard, why is the Sisters WD codex such a pile of shit, why dont you just go die in a fire so someone else might get your job.
> I can't walk up to him and punch him either, perhaps if I get a £5000 donation but that's not likely to happen.


I'm not sure that's the kind of behavior any of us should be participating in anyways. From what I can tell that's the kind of stuff that turned GW off from dealing with it's customer base directly in the first place and doesn't correct anything but just reinforces that negative thinking on both ends.

If it's going to be negative I think the questions should be constructive, or at the very least offer him the chance to explain himself. 

From what I can gather I don't even think he had long to work on this codex, and probably had to work within the confines of what already existed (so nothing new), so I doubt everything is his fault. Hate the guy or not I just don't think he deserves to be demonized for what he did. 

I mean Christ, the guy is a person just like the rest of us, and deserves to be treated like one. Golden rule people.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The questions I've received so far are actually really good and constructive. Keep em coming, I will post a list with the questions I've gotten next week so if there is anything missing you can add to it.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> The questions I've received so far are actually really good and constructive. Keep em coming, I will post a list with the questions I've gotten next week so if there is anything missing you can add to it.


That's good.

Sorry for the rant people, I just can't stand how over the top people act about this. These guys aren't coming to the house and kicking your puppies, they're doing their job as best they can with the crap they have to take from the top (be it stupid design ideas, new models to push, short deadlines, whatever) and sometimes it doesn't go so well. Give them the benefit of the doubt until they come to your house and kick your puppy THEN nerd-rage about it (because puppy kicking is a dick move), until then try and relax a little, okay?


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> I can't really ask insulting questions like : Cruddace why are you such a retard, why is the Sisters WD codex such a pile of shit, why dont you just go die in a fire so someone else might get your job.


Not interested then 


> I can't walk up to him and punch him either, perhaps if I get a £5000 donation but that's not likely to happen.


Mmm, considering that


----------



## Kettu

Irbian, if you have that kind of money to donate just for some fisticuffs, how about you just bribe GW instead?

None the less, if violence is the answer, someone film it and upload it please.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> None the less, if violence is the answer, someone film it and upload it please.


Something like this perhaps?


----------



## Revarien

Hey madcow, can you also add something to my previous questions (to Cruddace)?... Why was the Valkerie, the Arvas Lightner, or the Land Raider left off the vehicles list for the Sisters? Fluff has certainly showed their use in the past. Also, with the ecclisiarch having access to the more ancient [read: rare]and powerful tech (keeping it for their own use, why was that not reflected in this codex? Are their plans to put it in the next codex? Obviously the point cost would reflect it's rarity... but it is in current fluff.

One last thing: James Swallow had some really nice ideas with how the Sisters reacted to threats and were portrayed and obviously a new book by Mr. Swallow (and audio drama!) is coming out soon, as well as the Fantasy Flight Games' Sister of Battle fluff...: will there be direct correlations to his writing and the FFGs' writings and the fluff and rules in the next codex, as there will be more time allowed to compile it?

Whew*, lol


----------



## Suijin

I expect the most logical reason we didn't get new vechicles is they have something in mind but no model to release yet (as in they are going to release all the models at one time, or in waves, with the real codex). Also they didn't want to give us anything that would be taken away in the real codex. There also wasn't enough knowledge/time/finished codex to know within those 2 guidelines whether they could give us anything else.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

They couldn't release new models with this release even if everything was ready as they need it for the proper codex.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm going to ask the obvious one... On the one hand, for all that it creaked with old age, Witch Hunters still worked. On the other hand, we've been an army purely in blisters for over a year and a half now (and mail order only for a good part of it). It seems obvious to me that any problem with sales here is in the models... so why on earth did they decide they needed to 'fix' the Codex instead?


.
.
.

Where 'fix' is indeed kind of like 'fixing' a dog...


----------



## Sworn Radical

Shush, isn't it obvious ? Because one or more of those GW bums are actually reading these forums and thus decided that with all us enthusiasts out and about, it might be worth to put forth an _'updated'_ WD codex to milk the cow some more before it's dead and of course trying to make us believe that there might be a _'real'_ codex in the future sometime, which there won't. :mrgreen:


----------



## hungryugolino

But they're not milking the cow, they're sodomizing it with a length of lead piping...


----------



## Tahiri

I am tired of the crap they did to Sisters and the complete lack of effort they put into this update. Think I am going to change to Warmachine, certainly not going to spend anymore money on this mess and maybe one day when Sisters get a real update come back...


----------



## Zion

Okay, guys, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, knock it off. The codex has been out for around a month now and I've seen only a couple people besides me even claim to have USED it since then, but a LOT of people who won't try.

We didn't get raped with this update (seriously, can we stop equating this to something that is an emotionally traumatic event for the victim which usually requires a lot of therapy afterwards?), nor did we get Squatted.

You know what we DID get? We got a book that took Faith to a "it's nice when it works" status (as a few people I know think it should be to match the fluff), got some decent bonuses (those 6++ saves on your Rhinos and Exorcists were FREE by-the-way, infact they seem to be free for most of the army), they got Sisters back in line with BEING Sisters and not being the lapdogs of the Inquisition. If you want an Inquisition army that bad, suck it up and play Grey Knights and stop bitching about it here. We KNOW. We've known for TWO MONTHS now that Inquisition was no longer a viable option. You just look ignorant by still whining about it.

You know what's wrong with this book? Rules wise it's pretty bland, and the units have little in the way of protecting themselves from being hit in close combat. But here's a shock: it CAN and WILL win if you play it RIGHT. Infact, going from the overcosted Witch Hunters book to this one has made my army BETTER because I can fit in and army and do more with it despite some of the badly priced options (I'm looking at you Heavy Flamer). Sure it's bland like I'm playing Chaos Marines or Necrons with the limited choices but considering how bad it COULD be I can't understand the complaints. This is a NEWS and RUMOR thread. Being butthurt about a codex that's been out for a month is not news anymore so get over it or get another army already.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Wow, stop ranting please, would you ?

I didn't say a bloody thing about the WD _'codex'_, right ? I was merely hinting at just _why_ those GW people gave us that glorious update instead of pushing out a real book for the SoB yet. 
And thus it's all about their (sometimes blatantly stupid) business schemes.

Personally, I do use the new army list, because I want to be _'up to date'_ and really don't give a dime about the _power level _involved, nor the metagame going on. End of line.

If _other_ people want to vent - just let them - as long as they aren't violating any forum rules. 

Peace.


----------



## Zion

Sworn Radical said:


> Wow, stop ranting please, would you ?
> 
> I didn't say a bloody thing about the WD _'codex'_, right ? I was merely hinting at just _why_ those GW people gave us that glorious update instead of pushing out a real book for the SoB yet.
> And thus it's all about their (sometimes blatantly stupid) business schemes.


Then what I said wasn't levied at you, was it? I was talking about everyone who spends all their time crying about the codex being raped and only posts about them going to play Warmachine now. That's not news, especially not a month after the fact. You want to cry about the codex go start a topic in General Discussion for that.



Sworn Radical said:


> Personally, I do use the new army list, because I want to be _'up to date'_ and really don't give a dime about the _power level _involved, nor the metagame going on. End of line.


And that makes you one of maybe four or five (even counting me) who does.



Sworn Radical said:


> If _other_ people want to vent - just let them - as long as they aren't violating any forum rules.
> 
> Peace.


I have no problem with venting, but this isn't the place to be doing it. This is a forum section dedicated to discussing new releases and rumors. Hell the only reason this thread even exists anymore is because we're waiting for MadCowCrazy to go to Gamesday UK and come back. You want to rant about how shite you think the codex is, doing it in a more appropriate location.


----------



## Creon

Well, I've got my new pointed and configured Sisters in the car, and will get them running at some point. I like the new rules, barring some lacks I regret. The major one is there is no defense against Psykers. No hoods, no army wide save. Other than that, my army didn't change much, so I'm content. Now to get some Simulacrums, cause there I don't have any. Anyone got rumors on the new FineCast Sisters, if any?


----------



## Kettu

*Pouts* But I like crying!:cray:

I've been mostly quiet on the subject myself, I kinda packed my Sisters away awhile ago and lost track of where I put them.


----------



## SilverTabby

As someone who is happy with (and playing with) the new dex, withın the next half hour or so my latest tested list is going up in the Witch Hunters army lists section. And the rematch on my last one will be happening this week. 

I do totally agree with the rant though. Having played it, and had a few friends take it to pieces, I firmly believe that this list is actually better than the old one. Entire units armed with power weapons, backed up by marine-quality cheap shooting? Thank you...


----------



## Zion

Creon said:


> Anyone got rumors on the new FineCast Sisters, if any?


I've been keeping regular tabs on the internet and Sisters rumors (thank you Boolean Searching on Google for making that easy!) and there hasn't been a peep. I'm actually thankful because I'd rather get new kits over remolded old ones for the Sisters.

I am poking around to see if anyone knows anything regarding what GW is considering for the Sisters, but nothing yet.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If anyone dares face me on Vassal I'm up for a game 

Oh yeah, it's my birthday today as well...


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> I do totally agree with the rant though. Having played it, and had a few friends take it to pieces, I firmly believe that this list is actually better than the old one. Entire units armed with power weapons, backed up by marine-quality cheap shooting? Thank you...


Not just that, we actually have a non-rage based CC unit choice! Now if we could just get one as troops (shoot with one unit assault with the other) we'd be pretty set.

Well that and I want Sisters on Motorcycles with TL Bolters (since there ARE two Bolters on those bikes). Give them a reroll wounds faith power and your set!

I've got a few other ideas but I'll save those for some other time.....save for one....

Who else thinks Celestine should be a Monstrous Creature to represent the true power of a Living Saint?



MadCowCrazy said:


> If anyone dares face me on Vassal I'm up for a game
> 
> Oh yeah, it's my birthday today as well...


Happy Birthday!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Worst part is that my birthday is on the official speak like a pirate day.... ninjas ftw damn it!


----------



## andrewm9

I notice that some of you are calling this codex better and I believe you are entitled to your opinion, I happen to disagree with you. I won't say its worse either. Its about the same with the exception that Sisters die in close combat like Necrons (perhaps worse since they are T 3).

The codex definetly has some high points like Battle Conclaves and Dominions but I feel that they are the bright spots amidst the sea of darkness. The codex doesn't plug any of the holes of the previous codex (of which there are many). In my opinion its easily the weakest of the 5th edition codices. I really woudln't compare the codex to WD Blood Angels except in terms of blandness. The BA Wd dex was competetive even in 5th edition and more so than this Sisters codex is.

I just wish that I wasn't forced to take yet another non-sisters unit shoe-horned into the codex to make the list survivable. I'm not really cryign over spilled milk becuase I am playing with the codex and will continue to play. Any victory I earn with it or even any loss will inevitably make me a a better player as I learn to make do with less where other players have far more. Plus I totally get to rub it into thier face if I win. :biggrin:


----------



## mahavira

Having finally cornered someone to play a game or two, I can say with certainty that I like the new rules better in the field. I used the acts of faith about 3 times more often than before, took advantage of the bolt pistols to charge an enemy unit once...can't complain. While I'd LIKE a real codex with new units and plastic sisters (though if they get scaled to 28mm like everyone else they'll tower over my existing army) but this got my sisters out off the shelf and will keep them off (I'd started playing IG in despair of ever winning a game). Maybe it's because I never reached the level of skill required to actually win with the old dex, but none of the things people complain about losing ever helped me much, and a lot of the new abilities are a lot of fun on the table.


----------



## Suijin

I wouldn't say the WD codex is horribly bad so much as limited. Some of this comes from no other troops choice, only 1 scout choice, no infiltrating forces, no possibility of other scoring units, fewer overall units choices, limited options within a unit, etc.

The army also potentially has leadership issues, no psychic defense, no scalable faith to number of points, and no use of faith in the opponent's turn. I am setting up for some games here in the near future to try the various units out. I am also writing a tactics article that I will revise with learned info from games, but I think Zion has the right of it for some of the strategies for winning games. So there will be a steep learning curve with the new codex, and it won't be overpowered.

I can ultimitely wait and see what they come out with in the future, and play the current codex as it is.


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> I wouldn't say the WD codex is horribly bad so much as limited. Some of this comes from no other troops choice, only 1 scout choice, no infiltrating forces, no possibility of other scoring units, fewer overall units choices, limited options within a unit, etc.
> 
> The army also potentially has leadership issues, no psychic defense, no scalable faith to number of points, and no use of faith in the opponent's turn. I am setting up for some games here in the near future to try the various units out. I am also writing a tactics article that I will revise with learned info from games, but I think Zion has the right of it for some of the strategies for winning games. So there will be a steep learning curve with the new codex, and it won't be overpowered.
> 
> I can ultimitely wait and see what they come out with in the future, and play the current codex as it is.


I can definitely agree the codex is limited. In some ways I'd say it reminds me of the old Necron codex. One troop choice, limited options (less that are really effective) and special rules that help the army but aren't something you should be building the entire crux of your list around.

I appreciate the nod. I can't say I've mastered the army, but I think I'm getting some good ideas that'll work. This is definitely an easy-to-learn, hard-to-master sort of book.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So I figured I'd post the questions I've received so far, as I said I will only ask questions sent to me by pm so if there is something not on this list you want me to ask send me a pm with the question. Last date for sending in questions will be on friday as I have to leave on saturday morning. I will have to trim some of these down and I doubt I will be able to ask more than a few questions before I get thrown out but I'll try. If someone knows the 100% accurate answer to some of these then by all means go ahead and post it, but if it's not 100% accurate and your own guesswork please refrain for dumbing down the questions asked by others.

In no particular order atm, will organise them on friday.

Questions about the Sisters of Battle
1. Are there any plans to move the Sisters forwards in 40K, mainly a fluff question.
2. Why no faith usage in the opponents turn?
3. Why isn't faith scalable to the points size of the army?
4. Why is there no psychic defence of any kind?
5. Is there definitely a full actual codex in the works?
6. Will there be more Sister Special Characters than non Sister Special Characters in the codex?
7. General direction of the Sisters? IG Vets with SM Equipment or will they be more unique?
8. Will the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta be taken seriously meaning plasma and combi-plasma removed as options for Sister models?
9. Will the codex contain a faith point based faith system?
10. About the WD dex, why was the Immolator downgraded to a Razorback but received no points drop? Why no Eviscerators or Inferno pistols for all squad Superiors? Why no Jump pack for the Canoness?

Questions to Cruddace
1. What is his design philosophy, why he has decided on some of things he did.
2. Why has the Inquisition and Ordo Assassinorum assassins been removed from the Sisters dex?

Questions to the design team
1. Why did the Sisters of Battle only receive two paragraphs within the 5E book where's all other armies received a four page spread?
2. Why the Sisters of Battle got nothing when the Dark Eldar and Grey Knights got full ranges of miniatures, WD dexes historically means there is nothing for the army for the next three years or so, and why not even fincast miniatures?
3. Was the WD an attempt at getting feedback for the army? Would they take feedback seriously?
4. The Sisters community feels very unwelcome not only by Games Workshop but in the hobby as well because of all the games and armies GW produces the Sisters have received the least amount of fluff, expansion additions and support over the last 8 years.


----------



## rasolyo

Number 5 should be the first question you ask, no argument there.

EDIT: And some feedback on the new dex. I've actually bought new sister models and immolators from GW in spite of it. I know it's crap, but that won't stop me from trying to get by with the army list and start winning with it. And besides, I only learn from losing.

My general builds will be focusing on full heavy slots with heavy bolter retributors and full fast attack slots with scouting multi-melta immolators. I'm trying to work on celestians as counter-assault support for my Troops, but that's mainly because I'd rather buy Sister models than assassins/crusaders/arcos.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I will probably have to dumb it down to 5 questions in total, if I walk up to him and ask if he wouldn't mind answering 20 questions he might get put off.

Best way would be to combine questions where it's possible.

Is there definitely a Sisters codex in the work? If so will their fluff be moved forwards and what will their feel be like? Say compared to IG Veterans with bolters and power armour?

I honestly dont think he will want to be asked about the WD, simply because that's probably what most people will be asking him, if they do their question will most likely be something like "Why was it such a steaming pile of shit?!".

Personally I dont care about what we have at the present, I want to know about the future!


----------



## Zion

rasolyo said:


> Number 5 should be the first question you ask, no argument there.
> 
> EDIT: And some feedback on the new dex. I've actually bought new sister models and immolators from GW in spite of it. I know it's crap, but that won't stop me from trying to get by with the army list and start winning with it. And besides, I only learn from losing.
> 
> My general builds will be focusing on full heavy slots with heavy bolter retributors and full fast attack slots with scouting multi-melta immolators. I'm trying to work on celestians as counter-assault support for my Troops, but that's mainly because I'd rather buy Sister models than assassins/crusaders/arcos.


Personally I prefer Exocists over Retributors because they're durable, deal quite a bit of damage and my opponents focus on trying to kill them over the rest of my army, which allows me to get closer faster. Plus I can reach out and touch the enemy first turn and wreck even AV14 pretty fast to shut down Land Raiders, Monoliths and other metal containers filled with cheesy goodness.


----------



## Creon

And Multimelta Command Squads are better than Retributors with MM, due to Possible Relentless. Exorcists are Fantastic pieces, and a must-buy, I think.


----------



## Zion

Creon said:


> And Multimelta Command Squads are better than Retributors with MM, due to Possible Relentless. Exorcists are Fantastic pieces, and a must-buy, I think.


The problems with the Command Squad though can be summed up thusly:
-No synergy with Canoness (she's built to work with a CC unit)
- No ablative wounds
- Immolator doesn't have firepoints
- Forces you to take a Canoness (who only works with Repentia (who get cheaper rerolls from Priests and don't benefit from the +1I) and Battle Conclaves (assuming they can benefit from her faith abilities since the don't have the Acts of Faith rule))


----------



## Suijin

MadCowCrazy said:


> I will probably have to dumb it down to 5 questions in total, if I walk up to him and ask if he wouldn't mind answering 20 questions he might get put off.
> 
> Best way would be to combine questions where it's possible.
> 
> *Is there definitely a Sisters codex in the work? If so will their fluff be moved forwards and what will their feel be like? Say compared to IG Veterans with bolters and power armour?*
> 
> I honestly dont think he will want to be asked about the WD, simply because that's probably what most people will be asking him, if they do their question will most likely be something like "Why was it such a steaming pile of shit?!".
> 
> Personally I dont care about what we have at the present, I want to know about the future!


Yeah that question and then something about if finecast models are coming out anytime in the next year.

I agree that most of the WD codex questions should probably just be left alone. Another good question would be whether there will be other transports besides the Rhino and Immolator available to SoB.


----------



## andrewm9

Suijin said:


> Yeah that question and then something about if finecast models are coming out anytime in the next year.
> 
> I agree that most of the WD codex questions should probably just be left alone. Another good question would be whether there will be other transports besides the Rhino and Immolator available to SoB.


I think I'd like to know the overall design goal of this codex from his perspective (Cruddace as the designer) was. It would be interesting and possibly enlightening because frankly this dex is not very competitive. 

Like I said before its got its high points, but after awhile people will be able to easily handle it becuase frankly its a one or two trick pony army without much of a real spine. Our troops just fold to easily in close combat which is a gross oversight considering how the army must fight. I really want to know how the designer thought this army should work. This army is 95% pure shooting but can't bring the pain like a Guard army can at even close range. That is unless I am missing something.

I wonder what the planned utility of the Celestians. Their ability is close combat oriented but they lack any close combat power at all. They can't even take an Eviscerator. Why was this dropped from all units except the Seraphim? If sisters coudl have kept that close combat might not be so deadly for them since they could mitigate the morale penalty by scoring 1 or 2 wounds back from the Superior with her strength 6 power weapon.


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> The problems with the Command Squad though can be summed up thusly:
> -No synergy with Canoness (she's built to work with a CC unit)
> - No ablative wounds
> - Immolator doesn't have firepoints
> - Forces you to take a Canoness (who only works with Repentia (who get cheaper rerolls from Priests and don't benefit from the +1I) and Battle Conclaves (assuming they can benefit from her faith abilities since the don't have the Acts of Faith rule))


You are also starting from a base cost of 180pts (5 basic command + the Canoness required to take them) before you even add any multimeltas, as opposed to 105pts _including_ 4 multimeltas from Retributors. In my opinion, for the possibility of Relentless it's simply not worth it, given Rending is more useful as it makes popping AV14 that much easier (a MM still needs a 6 to glance unless you're stupidly close*). Especially as the Command Squad has the worst chance in the entire army of actually pulling off their AoF (no option for a Superior, so no auto +1 there). 

That aside, for all that people say Sisters suck in CC, this WDDex has actually given them a huge boost over how they were before. One simple addition: Bolt Pistols On Every Model. When left with no option but to assault or die, the ability to shoot beforehand has been great. 

*Which is the same as an Exorcist, yet people still say they're better. Other than the range, I disagree, but that's another arguement.


----------



## Azezel

andrewm9 said:


> I think I'd like to know the overall design goal of this codex from his perspective (Cruddace as the designer) was.
> 
> ...


I don't think we should be blaming Cruddace.

We knew before it was released that the 'codex' had almost no playtesting and was a rush-job. (the word on the street was that 'crons had a delay and GW needed something to fill the gap that resulted).

It certainly looks like Cruddace was given a weekend to throw some damn thing together and hope it'd fly.

He's always done right by the Sisters before (at least, so far as anyone has since Andy Hoare left) and he's on of the better codex writers out there.

'Nid players might argue that, but the sole real complaint there is 'too many cool elites' - my heart bleeds. Actually - if you look at his real codices ('Nids & Guard) you find that both are extremely flavourful, with special rules which support that flavour.

That too is an indication that Cruddace is not to blame. It seems very clear that he was not given the time or resources to do anything close to what he could have.

It seems plain that, things like the Canonness losing her Jump Pack were simple oversights.

To answer the question, I think his design goal was 'hash something out on my lunch break and hope it doesn't suck'.


----------



## mahavira

RE: the point cost of immolators, just checked my base Marines codex, and a razorback with twin linked heavy flamers costs the same as an immolator, and doesn't have an invulnerable save, so I don't think we can really complain too much (possibly the heavy bolter option with inferno bolts is too expensive, can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> You are also starting from a base cost of 180pts (5 basic command + the Canoness required to take them) before you even add any multimeltas, as opposed to 105pts _including_ 4 multimeltas from Retributors. In my opinion, for the possibility of Relentless it's simply not worth it, given Rending is more useful as it makes popping AV14 that much easier (a MM still needs a 6 to glance unless you're stupidly close*). Especially as the Command Squad has the worst chance in the entire army of actually pulling off their AoF (no option for a Superior, so no auto +1 there).
> 
> That aside, for all that people say Sisters suck in CC, this WDDex has actually given them a huge boost over how they were before. One simple addition: Bolt Pistols On Every Model. When left with no option but to assault or die, the ability to shoot beforehand has been great.
> 
> *Which is the same as an Exorcist, yet people still say they're better. Other than the range, I disagree, but that's another arguement.


Personally for me it's the price we pay for that Predator chassis and 48" range. For 30 points less than a tri-las Predator we get something that not only makes tanks fall to it's volleys but threatens TEQ, MEQ, and Monstrous Creatures at a good long range without scatter. And it now comes with a free 6++ save (it's saved me a few times thus far) and free smoke launchers (great for the turns you're inevitably shaken or stunned). It's just a really good deal on such a potent tank.

Plus being a giant organ mounted on a tank that shoots missiles is cool in my book. :biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> RE: the point cost of immolators, just checked my base Marines codex, and a razorback with twin linked heavy flamers costs the same as an immolator, and doesn't have an invulnerable save, so I don't think we can really complain too much (possibly the heavy bolter option with inferno bolts is too expensive, can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).


Personally I think the SM, SW and GK Razorbacks are bad comparisons to the Immolator, or at least to what it used to be.

I'd say the best Razorback to compare it to would be the Blood Angels Razorback as the Immolator used to be able to drive 12" and still fire it's heavy flamer.

The Blood Angel one costs 55pts and can change the TL-Heavy Bolters for TL-Heavy Flamers for free. It's also a Fast vehicle.

This is what the Immolator should be, the Immolator cant take las or plas cannons. It has the HFlamer, MM and HBolter options. It should by all rights have the Inferno Cannon as well as it has that in the audio book Fireborn and the Hellhound is based on the Immolator design.

If they wanted to make it a shitty Razorback then why not lower the points cost, it can't take the same weapons as a Razorback. The ability to re-roll to wound sure as hell isn't worth 25 points though as that's what you pay for it compared to a normal Razorback.

The Immolator should be a fast vehicle with allot more options, starting at 55pts with a TL-Heavy Flamer.

Then again that's just my opinion...


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Personally I think the SM, SW and GK Razorbacks are bad comparisons to the Immolator, or at least to what it used to be.
> 
> I'd say the best Razorback to compare it to would be the Blood Angels Razorback as the Immolator used to be able to drive 12" and still fire it's heavy flamer.
> 
> The Blood Angel one costs 55pts and can change the TL-Heavy Bolters for TL-Heavy Flamers for free. It's also a Fast vehicle.
> 
> This is what the Immolator should be, the Immolator cant take las or plas cannons. It has the HFlamer, MM and HBolter options. It should by all rights have the Inferno Cannon as well as it has that in the audio book Fireborn and the Hellhound is based on the Immolator design.
> 
> If they wanted to make it a shitty Razorback then why not lower the points cost, it can't take the same weapons as a Razorback. The ability to re-roll to wound sure as hell isn't worth 25 points though as that's what you pay for it compared to a normal Razorback.
> 
> The Immolator should be a fast vehicle with allot more options, starting at 55pts with a TL-Heavy Flamer.
> 
> Then again that's just my opinion...



Not a bad opinion either.

The old Inferno Cannon it used to have (I've got a 3rd Ed Core Rulebook which has the stats for the Sisters' 2nd Edition stuff) was a S6, AP4, Heavy 1 Template that made units who took wounds from it *automatically* fall back _as if_ they had just failed a morale check.

My interpretation of that is that they fell back even if they wouldn't normally be required to make morale checks. Which is pretty awesome. Now I'm not saying we SHOULD get that back...but it'd be kind of nice.


----------



## Grogbart

mahavira said:


> ..., can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).


Our multi-meltas are 40 points more, compared to the heavy bolters on a Razorback. Is that anyway near the usual price difference between heavy bolter and multimelta? 
Dreaghtnoughts, Land Speeders, Stormravens, Hellhounds, Leman Russ'?

Imperial Armour 2 has syn. multi-melta options for razorbacks and they're free!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is a snippet of what I've added to my document I'm going to give to Cruddace and anyone else from the design team I can find.

A way to make the Immolator unique from the Razorback would be to bring back the 2E Twin Heavy Flamer or an option to fire it as such. The Twin Heavy Flamer rule was basically 2 flame templates next to each other, perhaps something like.
Focused Muzzle: The Heavy Flamer counts as being Twin-linked
Widespread/Open Muzzle: You place two flame templates next to each other but otherwise treat the weapon as a Twin-linked Flamer.

This concept is interesting but also flawed by it's own design, the reason being that unless both are twin-linked you would never use the other. Both can't be Heavy Flamers as that would just mean you used the widespread one.

You could make it a feature of the Immolator, a reason for it's name rather than just being a razorback with worse weapon options.
If you took a Flamestorm Cannon for the main weapon and you could fire it normally with S6 Ap3 or place two templates next to each other and fire them as Twin-linked Heavy Flamers.


----------



## Suijin

From a balance point of view if you get 2 templates then they will not be twin-linked. So likely options are twin-lnked heavy flamer 1 template or 2 templates of regular flamer not linked. It would be nice to have an upgrade to a flamestorm cannon also for more points of course. Also for sure craziness a flamestorm cannon and then side sponsons of heavy flamers, heh that would be some flaming fun.

Or for your example of the flamestorm cannon S6 AP3 or place 2 templates next to each other counting as heavy flamer but not twin-linked.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yeah, I've been contemplating this allot.

For the Flamestorm to 2 Heavy Flamer templates it works ok, but from a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer to 2 Regular Templates it doesnt work because the twin allows you to reroll wounds while 2 regular flamer templates might cover more but have a lower chance to wound. What this means is that you are more likely to cause wounds with the TL heavy flamer than you are with 2 normal flame templates to a point.

Heavy Flamer
Shots:10 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit 
Hit Chance: 100% 
Hits:	10 
Wound Chance:	88.89% 
Wounds: 8.889 
Saved Wounds: 5.926 
Unsaved Wounds: 2.963 
Models Killed: 2.963 
Options:
Reroll Wound, Auto Hit

Shots:15 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit 
Hit Chance:100% 
Hits:	15 
Wound Chance: 50% 
Wounds: 7.5 
Saved Wounds: 5 
Unsaved Wounds: 2.5 
Models Killed: 2.5 
Options:
Auto Hit

Shots: 20 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit 
Hit Chance: 100% 
Hits:	20 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds: 10 
Saved Wounds:	6.667 
Unsaved Wounds: 3.333 
Models Killed:	3.333 
Options:
Auto Hit

Basically you need to hit twice as many targets for the dual flamer to be useful, something that will rarely happen. On models where you would wound on 2+ and they get no save it's better with 2 Heavy Flamer templates than 1 Flamestorm but going from a TL template to 2 lower S templates it's not quite as good unless you can hit twice as much.


----------



## Zion

While we're talking about changes we'd like to see made I've got a few I'd like to share that I'd like to give GW if they're interested in idea submissions:

Add in a close combat geared troop choice (WS4/BS3 to represent their dedication to the sword over the gun) with two close combat weapons (or a close combat weapon and a bolt pistol) and the possibility to exchange one of those for a shield that improves their invulnerable save to a 5+ (or just maybe give them the shield and chainswords) and the faith ability to re-roll wounds since re-rolling hits is already pretty easy to work into a list. That'd bring some solid close combat units into an army without unbalancing the power of the army.

The second one is to give ALL of the unit Superiors WS/BS4. These women are the veterans of their orders, responsible for raising their unit like a sort of family, and leading them in training so it only makes sense they'd be some of the best all-round fighters the Order has to offer.

The third is to bring the Eviscerator back to the squads, as well as give us the Exterminator option for them.

Dominions should have Tank Hunters. It's not an often-used USR but it's a good one, and putting it on what is essentially used as a suicide unit means that we're not going to get a lot of chances to really use it.

Sisters on Motorcycles. I know some people aren't really fond of this but consider this. T3(4) Sisters, with TL Bolters, the ability to take special weapons, an Eviscerator and some good mobility mixed in. Mix in an Attack Bike option and it's not a bad deal.

Give Repentia a transport option.

Lastly change the units so all the troop options are 5-20 with an extra special/heavy weapons for every x number of Sisters above 10 on top of the ones they already have.

That's all I got for now. It's some ideas for new units for GW to make (I know I'd play this stuff and I know some others who dig the ideas too).

EDIT: I just thought about this, since the Psybolt rule basically makes an Autocannon a kind of Uber-Bolter, does this mean we can get the Autocannon too?

ANOTHER EDIT: 75 point Pentitent Engines sound fair, right?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Add in a close combat geared troop choice (WS4/BS3 to represent their dedication to the sword over the gun) with two close combat weapons (or a close combat weapon and a bolt pistol) and the possibility to exchange one of those for a shield that improves their invulnerable save to a 5+ (or just maybe give them the shield and chainswords) and the faith ability to re-roll wounds since re-rolling hits is already pretty easy to work into a list. That'd bring some solid close combat units into an army without unbalancing the power of the army.
> 
> In my document Ive made Celestians close to what Sternguards are, each member can be equipped for close combat, shooting or both if you are willing to pay the points. For assault they can all take power weapons, power stakes, eviscerators and so forth. They have the Holy Hatred rule so they always hit on 3+. I made Shield of Faith an Act of Faith that allows the unit to re-roll failed armour save and the unit also gains a 5++ inv save. Hand of the Emperor I made so it re-rolls To Hit and To Wound/Pen.
> Each unit can only do 1 Act of Faith per turn though so you have to chose, but if you have an IC or two in a unit you are allowed to perform 1 extra AoF per IC with the Adepta Sororitas rule.
> 
> I also added Zealots and Frateris Milita, made Seraphim able to survive CC with the redone AoF and I added some Adeptus Arbites to provide some pure assault units.
> 
> The second one is to give ALL of the unit Superiors WS/BS4. These women are the veterans of their orders, responsible for raising their unit like a sort of family, and leading them in training so it only makes sense they'd be some of the best all-round fighters the Order has to offer.
> 
> This is a good idea I hadn't thought about, adding it to my document now.
> 
> The third is to bring the Eviscerator back to the squads, as well as give us the Exterminator option for them.
> 
> I made Eviscerators available to all models of Superior or higher rank, an option of 1 per 5 Zealots and Celestians can all take 1 each if they so wish.
> Lowered the cost of the Eviscerator to 15pts as that's what it was changed to when Chapter Approved Zealots came, the price for Priests in the IG codex and the price for Banishers in the GK codex. Why they thought Sisters should have to pay 25pts when everyone only has to pay 15pts is beyond me.
> I made Exterminators an option for Zealots and Frateris Militia but renamed them "Promethium Filled Bottle", same effect as before but hits on 4+ rather than based on how many models you have in a unit.
> 
> Dominions should have Tank Hunters. It's not an often-used USR but it's a good one, and putting it on what is essentially used as a suicide unit means that we're not going to get a lot of chances to really use it.
> 
> With the Acts of Faith, lower points costs and rebalances I've made this might increase their price or simply make them over powered for their points cost. My goal was to make all Sister units cheap and customisable because that way you can chose to make them expensive or keep them very plain.
> 
> Sisters on Motorcycles. I know some people aren't really fond of this but consider this. T3(4) Sisters, with TL Bolters, the ability to take special weapons, an Eviscerator and some good mobility mixed in. Mix in an Attack Bike option and it's not a bad deal.
> 
> Added as an option, though as I have Adeptus Arbites in the example dex and they make use of bikes that may not leave room for sisters to take some. I made the suggestion that only 1 kit would be needed and give the option to swap the torso of the biker so both armies could use them.
> 
> Give Repentia a transport option.
> 
> I allow Repentia to take any dedicated transport in the army but with the rule that once they leave one they may never enter one again for any reason. In Faith and Fire they were deployed by Rhino but after this ran around killing until they were all killed if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Lastly change the units so all the troop options are 5-20 with an extra special/heavy weapons for every x number of Sisters above 10 on top of the
> ones they already have.
> 
> Ive made it so you can take 1 special weapon for ever 5 models or 1 heavy weapon for every 10 models. Limit is 4 Special weapons in the unit or 2 Special and 2 Heavy.
> 
> That's all I got for now. It's some ideas for new units for GW to make (I know I'd play this stuff and I know some others who dig the ideas too).
> 
> EDIT: I just thought about this, since the Psybolt rule basically makes an Autocannon a kind of Uber-Bolter, does this mean we can get the Autocannon too?
> 
> Autocannons and Assault cannons dont fall under the Holy Trinity I'm afraid even though they are ballistic weapons.
> I added Holy Promethium and Blessed Ammo, it forces all successful saves to have to be re-rolled and if the unit takes 1 wound it has to take a leadership test as if it had suffered 25% casualties.
> 
> For it to Ignore Cover Saves would have made it too good combined with rending bolters than can re-roll to hit and to wound if you are successful with your Acts of Faith.


Making the final touches to my document now, will need to have it printed today so I can get it spiralbound tomorrow. Hoping to give one to each of the game devs at games day.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Making the final touches to my document now, will need to have it printed today so I can get it spiralbound tomorrow. Hoping to give one to each of the game devs at games day.


Sounds pretty good. I'd like to keep the army towards the more religious fanatic side of things (namely the Sisters, the Ecclesiarchy and any tag-a-long-fanatics) but if you think Arbites should be included offering them can't hurt (guess that's another use for Imperial Guard models?).

I added another afterthought to my previous post I'll repeat here:

75 point Pentinent Engines (points based on current rules and what would be fair, if you're changing it a lot I'll defer to your judgement).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is my Penitent Engine entry and my problem with the WD Penitent Engines.
You need to remember that at a melta in range will almost always pen and kill a penitent engine on 3+, if it's in a squadron melta kills on a 2+. In todays game play there is allot of melta on the board. It's very easy to manipulate the Penitent Engine to go towards it's own demise. Heck all you have to do is wait. My changes are meant to make it a unit you would actually consider. Something cheap that the opponent has to deal with, it is very unlikely that the PE will ever reach assault and if it does it will most likely get killed before it even gets to swing but as your opponent has to shoot them your other units may advance more safely. If your opponent on the other hand decides to shoot your transports and what not the PE might make it into combat it large enough numbers to actually do something.
Almost all weapons that pen kill a Penitent Engine on 4+, 3+ if in a squadron. If the weapon is Ap1 it's even easier to kill one. With AV 11 the PE is VERY easy to pen, open-topped is what makes it such a vulnerable unit and the reason it should be cheap. Heck an Armoured Sentinel or Killa Kan has more survivability, the only walker in the game with less survivability are Scout Sentinels with AV10 and open topped, but they are designed for shooting so can stay back and shoot. The PE has rage so has to run towards the closest enemy.

The Problems
Too expensive for what you get, it has less survivability than a Killa-Kan and suffers from Rage so it's very easy to manipulate forcing it to go towards units you might not want it to attack. It's similar to a Killa-Kan and Scout Sentinel except those are made for shooting and the Penitent Engine for Assault, it's only saving grace is the number of attacks it can do but with I3 it will get to hit last in most cases, this together with open-topped makes it very unlikely for it to even get to attack at all. If it makes it into combat there will more than likely be a power fist or some kind of krak or melta bomb in the squad all of which are sufficient to kill it. In either case it is highly unlikely for the Penitent Engine to survive until the next turn. A Scout Sentinel is 35 points and a Killa-Kan a minimum of 40 points so it should be priced around there. There are too few units it is good against, it's too predictable, too slow, low survivability and too expensive. It needs a 50% price cut and some options.
The new unit composition is unclear, it says "Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Engine" with the option to buy 2 more, the old codex said "Squadron: Penitent Engines are fielded in squadrons of 1 to 3 models." Does this new unit composition mean you can field 3 PE per Heavy slot and they act independently of each other? With it's low survivability and predictability this is the way it should be, you should be able to buy 3 PE per Heavy slot and they should act independently of each other and be deployable independently of each other.

My suggested solution
Penitent Engines
Cost: 50 points with additional Penitent Engines costing 50 points each, max 3 Penitent Engines per Heavy Support slot.
4/2/5(10)/3/D6+1 11/11/10
Unit Type: Walker, Open-topped
Special Rules: Holy Rage
Unstoppable Rampage: Penitent Engines ignore any crew shaken and crew stunned results on the Vehicle
Damage tables.
Battle Frenzy: Every unsaved wound inflicted in close combat generates an additional attack.
These extra attacks do not generate further additional attacks.
Frantic Need for Forgiveness: Pilots of Penitent Engines understand little in the forms of strategy and formations once they have been let lose on the opposing forces. All Penitent Engines act independently of each other.
Wargear: 2 DCCW with built in Heavy Flamers. Note that the bonus for being equipped with 2 DCCWs is
already included in the PEs profile

Each Penitent Engine may take any of the following:
Holy Icon
Head Start: Every Penitent Engine gains the Scout rule and may perform a Scout move at the start of the game or outflank.

I added a rule that makes them act independently of each other, lowered the points cost to what is more reasonable, added a way to give them a save from attacks so that they might actually get to attack and gave them a way to get into combat quicker or surprise your opponent with outflanks. As for points cost I'm not sure, either 25 points per PE or 50 points for the entire unit to get the scout rule. The Dreadknight can get a 30" move for 75 points so it should be around half that. Should Penitent Engines even be in Heavy Support? Their frantic behaviour and suicidal rushing towards the enemy suggests to me that they should be a Fast Attack option instead. With the changes I'm suggesting they could compete with Exorcists and Retributors for a slot but as they are extremely easy to kill the Exorcist and Retributors seem like a much more viable option. If they took up no force org slot or if you could take 1-3 instead of a troops choice for every Confessor or Canoness in your army similar to Big Meks with Deff Dreads then perhaps they would be more desirable. With the changes I'm suggesting the problems with the unit are lessened but the competition with the other options in Heavy Support are still there. One solution would be that Penitent Engines are a 
0-1 Heavy Support choice and that you could take 1-9 Penitent Engines. This would allow you to take the same amount as you could before but it would not compete for a slot in the way it used to.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is my Penitent Engine entry and my problem with the WD Penitent Engines.
> You need to remember that at a melta in range will almost always pen and kill a penitent engine on 3+, if it's in a squadron melta kills on a 2+. In todays game play there is allot of melta on the board. It's very easy to manipulate the Penitent Engine to go towards it's own demise. Heck all you have to do is wait. My changes are meant to make it a unit you would actually consider. Something cheap that the opponent has to deal with, it is very unlikely that the PE will ever reach assault and if it does it will most likely get killed before it even gets to swing but as your opponent has to shoot them your other units may advance more safely. If your opponent on the other hand decides to shoot your transports and what not the PE might make it into combat it large enough numbers to actually do something.
> Almost all weapons that pen kill a Penitent Engine on 4+, 3+ if in a squadron. If the weapon is Ap1 it's even easier to kill one. With AV 11 the PE is VERY easy to pen, open-topped is what makes it such a vulnerable unit and the reason it should be cheap. Heck an Armoured Sentinel or Killa Kan has more survivability, the only walker in the game with less survivability are Scout Sentinels with AV10 and open topped, but they are designed for shooting so can stay back and shoot. The PE has rage so has to run towards the closest enemy.
> 
> The Problems
> Too expensive for what you get, it has less survivability than a Killa-Kan and suffers from Rage so it's very easy to manipulate forcing it to go towards units you might not want it to attack. It's similar to a Killa-Kan and Scout Sentinel except those are made for shooting and the Penitent Engine for Assault, it's only saving grace is the number of attacks it can do but with I3 it will get to hit last in most cases, this together with open-topped makes it very unlikely for it to even get to attack at all. If it makes it into combat there will more than likely be a power fist or some kind of krak or melta bomb in the squad all of which are sufficient to kill it. In either case it is highly unlikely for the Penitent Engine to survive until the next turn. A Scout Sentinel is 35 points and a Killa-Kan a minimum of 40 points so it should be priced around there. There are too few units it is good against, it's too predictable, too slow, low survivability and too expensive. It needs a 50% price cut and some options.
> The new unit composition is unclear, it says "Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Engine" with the option to buy 2 more, the old codex said "Squadron: Penitent Engines are fielded in squadrons of 1 to 3 models." Does this new unit composition mean you can field 3 PE per Heavy slot and they act independently of each other? With it's low survivability and predictability this is the way it should be, you should be able to buy 3 PE per Heavy slot and they should act independently of each other and be deployable independently of each other.
> 
> My suggested solution
> Penitent Engines
> Cost: 50 points with additional Penitent Engines costing 50 points each, max 3 Penitent Engines per Heavy Support slot.
> 4/2/5(10)/3/D6+1 11/11/10
> Unit Type: Walker, Open-topped
> Special Rules: Holy Rage
> Unstoppable Rampage: Penitent Engines ignore any crew shaken and crew stunned results on the Vehicle
> Damage tables.
> Battle Frenzy: Every unsaved wound inflicted in close combat generates an additional attack.
> These extra attacks do not generate further additional attacks.
> Frantic Need for Forgiveness: Pilots of Penitent Engines understand little in the forms of strategy and formations once they have been let lose on the opposing forces. All Penitent Engines act independently of each other.
> Wargear: 2 DCCW with built in Heavy Flamers. Note that the bonus for being equipped with 2 DCCWs is
> already included in the PEs profile
> 
> Each Penitent Engine may take any of the following:
> Holy Icon
> Head Start: Every Penitent Engine gains the Scout rule and may perform a Scout move at the start of the game or outflank.
> 
> I added a rule that makes them act independently of each other, lowered the points cost to what is more reasonable, added a way to give them a save from attacks so that they might actually get to attack and gave them a way to get into combat quicker or surprise your opponent with outflanks. As for points cost I'm not sure, either 25 points per PE or 50 points for the entire unit to get the scout rule. The Dreadknight can get a 30" move for 75 points so it should be around half that. Should Penitent Engines even be in Heavy Support? Their frantic behaviour and suicidal rushing towards the enemy suggests to me that they should be a Fast Attack option instead. With the changes I'm suggesting they could compete with Exorcists and Retributors for a slot but as they are extremely easy to kill the Exorcist and Retributors seem like a much more viable option. If they took up no force org slot or if you could take 1-3 instead of a troops choice for every Confessor or Canoness in your army similar to Big Meks with Deff Dreads then perhaps they would be more desirable. With the changes I'm suggesting the problems with the unit are lessened but the competition with the other options in Heavy Support are still there. One solution would be that Penitent Engines are a
> 0-1 Heavy Support choice and that you could take 1-9 Penitent Engines. This would allow you to take the same amount as you could before but it would not compete for a slot in the way it used to.


Some interesting thoughts there. I don't really have a good answer without some play testing (which means I'd need to proxy or spend about $315 USD for 9 Pentinent Engines ), but I do like the points raised. 

I do agree that the Pentient Engine is wasted in the Heavy Support slot. I'd have to say making them Heavies (but not take Org slots) or Fast Attacks would make people more likely to take at least a couple.

And I like the rule that lets them work independently. It makes sense that they are too frantic about trying to redeem themselves (and escape their tortured existance either through suicide by enemy or the hope they will be eventually freed from their punishment if they try hard enough) to bother with formations and the like.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Telling Penitent Engines to walk in formation is like asking Orks to aim properly...


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Telling Penitent Engines to walk in formation is like asking Orks to aim properly...


I don't know. I've been playing Space Marine and they have Orks who aim!

Though it reminds me that I want to do some conversions for aiming Orks (scopes mounted backwards, or strapped seperately to their heads like some kind of telescoping monocle, or on the side with the Ork holding the Shoota sideways....). 

Back to the Sisters though: I'm curious what your solution for Faith was. Scaling based on units or based on points?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I first made it based on game size. You got 1 FP per 250pts of the game size played.
So a game of 1500 would give you 6 FPs per turn. Then I added the rule if the points cost for the game was above 125pts of the previously earned FP you would get an additional one.

So a game at 650 points would give you 3 per turn, this was to offset weird points values like 1850 or 2450.

Then I was struck by the thought that if you only had 1 unit of sisters and tons of Arbites you could potentially have 10 FP to spend per turn on 1 unit so I added the limit of 1 AoF per turn per unit.

Now I basically have it at 1 FP per 250pts of the game points size.
Its not a perfect system but it does work.

Personally based on the games point size is the best way to do it but I also ask the question if there should be FPs to begin with? Then again with 5 different acts of faith that would be rather unfair compared to psychic powers as almost every unit in the codex can use them.
Arbites and some Ecclesiarchy units can't use them, the rest can either perform or benefit from them.

This is something that would have to be playtested.

Best solution would probably be 1 per 500pts and 1 per Canoness or similar. That way you could keep the AoF powerful as you wouldn't be able to perform many of them.

I also have a price of failure rule.

Price of Failure
If the Test of Faith is unsuccessful the Sisters faith has been severely shaken, the unit and any Independent Character joined to that unit is reduced to Leadership 7, any special rules or wargear that affects Leadership or Morale Tests (such as The Book of St Lucius, Stubborn and Fearless) are also lost and the unit may not benefit from any effect that allows for re-rolls of such tests until the start of your next game turn.
The unit also loses any previous benefits from successful Tests of Faith and no more Acts of Faith may be attempted this game turn.


----------



## Zion

I like hearing other people's solutions to these sorts of problems.

I personally was thinking of a points basis (again, not perfect but it works) but was looking at faith powers that were useful, but weren't overly powerful (a lot of re-rolls of hits or wounds, and the like that improve how the Sisters work but don't make them break them. But giving a unit one use of faith a player turn but a power that works in any of the three phases (much like the BSS's Light of the Emperor) might work. It'll give the units the abilities to use faith but at the same time not let them be running amuck with their powers.

I've been considering the balance of letting Sisters use the faith abilities on opponents turns, and since there are psychic powers that work on the enemy's turn I have to say that it can't be too harmful.


----------



## Grogbart

Some suggestions

WS4 for all Sisters, we'd still hit pretty much hit anything on 4+ like it is now, but not absolutely anything will be hitting us on a 3+.

Tests of Faith, one D6:
- Battle Sisters, Dominions, Retributors 5+
- Celestians, Seraphims, Palatines 4+
- Saints, Canonesses 3+

Tests of Faith could be used elsewhere than just Acts of Faith, e.g. psychic saves

No more Faith points!

Failed AoF rolling 1s for ToF cause penalties (e.g. BS3 in the shooting phase, loosing Stubborn Fearless or Martyrdom in the Assault phase, ...)

Regroup AoF for all Sisters.
Additional AoF through equipment:
- Blessed Ammunition: rending, ignoring cover, +1 Str, or else (free on Celestian Squads)
- Brazier of Holy Fire: +1 Str and Ini, reroll to wound hits in CC, or else (free on Seraphim Squads)
- Anointed Blades/Sarrissas: rending against non-vehicles in CC, poisoned weapons, or else (free on Celestian Assault Squads)
- Litany of Faith/BoSL: stubborn AoF, ...
- Purity Seals/Sigilum Sanctum: some defensive AoF
That way, Acts of Faith could be balanced more easily, as they can be given point costs directly. And players can decide how much Faith they want in their army.

Martyrdom Special Rule for all Sisters
Upon failing moral checks in CC, Sisters automatically retreat successful (without Ini comparison), but receive wounds like in the "no retreat" rule.

Declare Archenemy Special Rule for e.g. Confessors
Enemies declared 'Archenemy of the holy Emperor' are forced to reroll all saves (or something along those lines) AND units with the rage USR may choose the Archenemy as nearest visible enemy.


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## MadCowCrazy

I added this as an army special rule, Book of St Lucius is also an army special rule.

Martyrdom
When assaulted the Superior and D6 Sisters of your choice may detach and Counter-Attack the assaulting unit. If the roll is the same or above the size of the unit they simply stand their ground and don't gain the Counter-Attack rule. These models will die at the end of the assault phase regardless of the outcome as they throw themselves at the assaulting unit in a desperate attempt to buy their fellow Sisters more time. Only when all models from the original unit has been killed is a kill point rewarded.


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## Revarien

Personally, I think if sisters are supposed to be queens of short-range shooting, they should have the ability (maybe on a leadership test) to 'Stand and Shoot' if being assaulted...or something along those lines... I know that is fairly fantasy, but it really works with this army.


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## Zion

Revarien said:


> Personally, I think if sisters are supposed to be queens of short-range shooting, they should have the ability (maybe on a leadership test) to 'Stand and Shoot' if being assaulted...or something along those lines... I know that is fairly fantasy, but it really works with this army.


Or at the very least add a point of strength to their regular attacks during the first round of combat to represent them using their new bolt pistols when assaulted (perhaps on a leadership test kind of like the Space Wolves counter-attack rule).

EDIT: I was considering for a while that I'd like to see Sisters in Terminator Armor, but really a squad or two of Celestians in Artificer Armor and geared for close combat or shooting would be pretty sweet too.


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## Kettu

I normally jump right into wishlisting but with the change of seasons my allergies not make me think so good.

However, with the PE, I have always more liked the idea of it becoming a MC rather then remaining a walker. Staright away, most the problems associated with it's survivability are solved rather cleanly.

And face it, MC Walkers are not exactly a foreign concept.


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## Zion

Kettu said:


> I normally jump right into wishlisting but with the change of seasons my allergies not make me think so good.
> 
> However, with the PE, I have always more liked the idea of it becoming a MC rather then remaining a walker. Staright away, most the problems associated with it's survivability are solved rather cleanly.
> 
> And face it, MC Walkers are not exactly a foreign concept.


You got a fair point there, and it wouldn't be unfair to do that (save for the Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons being useless and would probably need to be adjusted to work with that). If they got adjust to at LEAST S8 Monstrous Creatures that'd be good.


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## MadCowCrazy

Last chance to add to the questions, I will have to get ready in 1 hour so if you dont have your questions submitted by then I wont know you wanted me to ask it.

Here is a list of all asked questions. At the bottom I will compile the questions I will ask, 5 questions in total max but I will have them all with me incase someone is talkative.


1. Are there any plans to move the Sisters forwards in 40K, mainly a fluff question.
2. Why no faith usage in the opponents turn?
3. Why isn't faith scalable to the points size of the army?
4. Why is there no psychic defence of any kind?
5. Is there definitely a full actual codex in the works?
6. Will there be more Sister Special Characters than non Sister Special Characters in the codex?
7. General direction of the Sisters? IG Vets with SM Equipment or will they be more unique?
8. Will the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta be taken seriously meaning plasma and combi-plasma removed as options for Sister models?
9. Will the codex contain a faith point based faith system?
10. About the WD dex, why was the Immolator downgraded to a Razorback but received no points drop? Why no Eviscerators or Inferno pistols for all squad Superiors? Why no Jump pack for the Canoness?

Questions to Cruddace
1. What is his design philosophy, why he has decided on some of things he did.
2. Why has the Inquisition and Ordo Assassinorum assassins been removed from the Sisters dex?

Questions to the design team
1. Why did the Sisters of Battle only receive two paragraphs within the 5E book where's all other armies received a four page spread?
2. Why the Sisters of Battle got nothing when the Dark Eldar and Grey Knights got full ranges of miniatures, WD dexes historically means there is nothing for the army for the next three years or so, and why not even fincast miniatures?
3. Was the WD an attempt at getting feedback for the army? Would they take feedback seriously?
4. The Sisters community feels very unwelcome not only by Games Workshop but in the hobby as well because of all the games and armies GW produces the Sisters have received the least amount of fluff, expansion additions and support over the last 8 years.



Question 1: Is there a proper Sisters of Battle codex in the work? If so how far along in development is it, how will they differ from other armies and will their fluff be expanded upon to flesh them out more?

Question 2: The design philosophy behind the Sisters, why did some of the things end up the way they did? Will the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta be taken more seriously meaning Combi-Plasma and plasma weapons removed as options for all Sister models?

Question 3: It says in the WH Codex that "The duties exercised by the Adepta Sororitas make them the ideal Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus" and that "The ancient charters established at the conclusion of the Age of Apostasy, at the very founding of the Ordo Hereticus, allow the Witch Hunters to demand the services of the Adepta Sororitas at any time".

Will the Ordo Hereticus make an appearance in the book and if so how will they differ from codex Grey Knights? What about the Ecclesiarchy? How big a role will they get? Adeptus Arbites? Have they been squatted or is there hope for those who'd like to see them as a playable army again?

Question 4: As there were no model releases with the WD, not even finecast, does this mean that the entire range is getting redone? Jervis has been quoted to saying that there has been problems with the Sister molds, the cloth pieces under their shoulder pads to be precise. Have these problems been solved and if so when can we expect to see a proper Sisters of Battle release? How many plastic kits? Will they get the DE treatment?

Question 5: The White Dwarf codex seemed extremely rushed, there were spelling errors and stat errors in allot of places. There was an apparent lack of Sisters only wargear and as one of their duties is to hunt and kill psykers why where they not given the tools to do so and protection needed to defend themselves against psychic powers? Was the WD codex a test to see if there is any interest in the Sisters of Battle? Are you looking for feedback from the community in regards to what we think the Sisters should be?


These are the 5 questions I will ask so far, if anyone has anything they think is WAAAY more important or something that could be expanded upon in the questions hurry up and post it now. I will be leaving in an hour or so.


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## Zion

Looks pretty good, save #4 for the design team looks more like a complaint than question.

Good luck MadCowCrazy! I hope you're able to get the answers you're (and we're) looking for!

Also, IF they have Sisters kits (I doubt it, but you never know!) there could you please, Please, PLEASE bring back pretty pictures?


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## MadCowCrazy

Sure, I will do the same as last year and bring my shitty camera and record some interviews etc. I only ever go to Games Day for Sisters information which I got a bit of critizism for last year when I was asking too many questions about the Sisters of Battle in my videos :crazy:

My response is an obvious one, if you want to hear about Spheeze Mehreenez then go anywhere else on the web. If you want to hear about Sisters of Battle then look at my videos as that's the only thing I care about.


Thanks everyone for your questions, without you this would still have been possible but thx anyways :crazy:

I will be back home late Monday night, more like Tuesday night. I will arrive at 22:00 GMT +2 plus summer savings time. If anyone cares to be awake I will start posting what I've got an hour or two after this. It depends on how tired I am though, I will have to go 3 days without much sleep. Busses, ferry, trains and airplanes will be my only chance to get some sleep.


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## Revarien

Thanks MCC! You're awesome! I know I've only been posting as of late, but I've been following yer awesome work for a while... thank you so much for this!


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## oiad

Have to agree with Zion about #4 to the design team. How about instead asking why the Sisters of Battle never received a full codex release over the last two editions, when some armies have even received two?

Some of the other questions could probably be figured out with a bit of deductive reasoning but it would be good to get the official answers anyway, e.g.: The lack off ][ units, etc...

Good work otherwise.


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## rasolyo

Be safe, MCC.


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## Kettu

Have a fun time away :bye:
Bring us back some souvenirs. :biggrin:


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## WallWeasels

Hmm seemed I missed some discussion  GL at games day MCC.


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## MadCowCrazy

Bah, my post didn't go up.

Anyways I'm back, pretty much nothing to report. Not much on the Sisters front, devs were not allowed to do recorded interviews. Robin Cruddace wasn't there, found Matt Ward, asked him the 5 questions but got pretty much nothing out of him.

They can't accept submission at Games Day but I did get to talk to Ben (something) how is head of the design team (or something, too tired to think) and he did accept my document. He said he might go through it on monday (today). I will have to post my remaining 2 documents to Jervis and Robin Cruddace tomorrow, or whatever day I wake up on as I'm tired as shit.

Do I have anything on the Sisters?
This thing is a IG and Sisters unit in the Apocalypse 2 book. Has some weapon options now as well but can only fire them if in hoover mode as it's not a military vehicle. Can transport 12" guys.

Apocalypse pg. 41 had the rules for the last Lighter, it was also in Imperial Armour 4. Had no weapon options in either but could now take basic IG weapons like multi laser, auto cannons and such.

Does this mean a plastic kit is coming? Only GW knows and they weren't tellin shit :crazy:

As I couldn't record any interviews I didn't record much but I did record the entire design seminar where they showed next years white dwarf mini. Think it was a pirate dwarf or something like that. I will go through my material tomorrow and start working on having it uploaded.


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## Azezel

We appreciate you going to all the trouble (and spending a lot of money) for us, MCC.

No surprise that there was no Sisters news - nothing was expected.

If I were you, I wouldn't bother next year. If you aren't allowed to record the staff and there's nothing on display but whatever Forgeworld have crapped out this week it's hard to justify the expense, I should think.

All the same, thank you for trying.


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## MadCowCrazy

Games Day is a horrible event to go to, the event lasts for 8 hours but this year if you wanted to actually by something you had to spend 3-4 hours in a queue to the shopping area. Last year they had the forgeworld section opposite the GW section and then there was a 3rd BL section, all three were in the big area where they announce the winners for the contests. This year someone had the brainfart to put it up in the small section where they showed the trailer for ultramarine last year. Yes, they put the FW, BL and GW sales sections all in the same place. They queue went through the entire second hall and I was told it would take at least 3 hours if not more just to get inside. I was lucky as there were 2 queues at the start and I was the last person to be allowed into the second queue. There was only meant to be one queue so they tried to get rid of the smaller one I was in first, still had to queue for 1 hour though.

Why the hell do ppl go to Games Day to buy regular shit you can buy in any GW store at any time of the year? Standing in line for 3 hours to buy your kid a tactical marine box doesn't some smart. I saw allot of kids getting very disappointed when they tried to enter the queue behind me and were told they'd have to enter the real queue and their parents basically said no.

Even though last year was horrible it was still allot better than this year, mainly do to how they organised the sales. They shouldn't sell anything at GD except for stuff that hasn't been released yet, the only ones to do so however are FW and BL. Why you'd pay 40£ to get inside and buy regular GW stuff at regular retail price is beyond me but I'm crazy, not retarded...

Will I go next year? Probably, I'm a glutton for punishment I guess but it's the only place to try and dig out some good Sisters rumours but with the blackout on rumours I dont really see a point in going there any more.

When I upload the seminar thing you will get allot of insight on how GW operates regarding releases. You will tell yourself "WTF? That doesn't make any sense?!" but it's the way GW works...


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## Zion

Thanks for the new info. I look forward to what you have to share!


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## MadCowCrazy

Ok, had 16 hours of sleep, walked the dog for 1 hour, taken a shower and now have some food in front of me. Time to start seeing what's on my camera, with my luck it might have burnt up as it was getting quite hot during the seminar. It's a camera and not a video camera so it's not exactly designed for long sessions of recording.


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## Revarien

Thanks MCC!!! 

Kinda wish I woulda thought to have you ask the Forgeworld folks if they had plans on making any new sisters of battle stuff... prob coulda got a straight answer out of them... but then their customer service folks tend to be fairly candid.


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## MadCowCrazy

The only Sisters of Battle info I managed to get from Games Day was the entry in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition book.

Arvus Lighter
In non-Apocalypse games, or where the Flyer rules are not being used, treat the Arvus Lighter as a Fast Skimmer instead. 1-3 Arvus Lighters may be taken as a Fast Attack choice for Codex Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle or Vraksian Renegade army. These Lighters do not need to form a squadron and are treated separately in the game.

BS 3 10/10/10
Transport: 12 or 6 models on 40mm bases or in terminator armour
Fire Points: None
Weapons and Equipment: None
Special Rules: Improvised Weapons Mounts (Can only fire a mounted weapon if in Hoover mode. Hover mode: Model loses the Flyer rule and becomes a Fast Skimmer instead. So currently this rule wouldn't matter in normal games of 40k if you were allowed to use this model).

Any model may take any of the following:
Flare/Chaff launcher: One use only. If Immobilised from a shooting attack may re-roll the damage roll but must apply second roll.
Armoured Cockpit: If stunned or shaken, roll D6 and on 4+ it is ignored.
Ilum Flares: One use only. During Night fight a vehicle spotted by the vehicle may be illuminated with the flares so other vehicle may shoot it. This with searchlight basically allows you to light up 2 vehicles during night fighting games.
Searchlight

May take 1 weapon for the Improvised Weapons Mounts:
TL- Multilaser
Two Hellstrike Missiles
TL-Autocannon
Two TL-Heavy Stubbers

Cost is just over that of 2 Rhinos. Neat little vehicle but I'd rather see the regular Valkyrie or Vendetta available to the Sisters of Battle as they use those in some BL books where they are mentioned.

Perhaps there are more entries allowing Sisters to use the vehicle but this is the only one I've see so far. Plastic kit for this perhaps? Not sure what the point would be but it's not impossible. Perhaps we would see a Summer of Fliers thing with 6E as the Flyer rule is rumoured to be included as a new Vehicle type.

Other than this I got pretty much nothing from Games Day, the developers didn't want to talk about it as they are bound by the NDA signed to GW. During the Seminar it was said that GWs goal was to make ppl excited about their products and that's the reason behind the rumours blockout but I think it's having the opposite effect and that it's basically killing the online community as there is almost nothing to talk about any more.

The people who provide rumours are one of the few things keeping the community alive. This is just my opinion though and only relates to the rumours and news section rather than painting, gaming etc.

Saving and uploading my first video now.


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## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> The only Sisters of Battle info I managed to get from Games Day was the entry in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition book.
> 
> Arvus Lighter
> In non-Apocalypse games, or where the Flyer rules are not being used, treat the Arvus Lighter as a Fast Skimmer instead. 1-3 Arvus Lighters may be taken as a Fast Attack choice for Codex Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle or Vraksian Renegade army. These Lighters do not need to form a squadron and are treated separately in the game.
> 
> BS 3 10/10/10
> Transport: 12 or 6 models on 40mm bases or in terminator armour
> Fire Points: None
> Weapons and Equipment: None
> Special Rules: Improvised Weapons Mounts (Can only fire a mounted weapon if in Hoover mode. Hover mode: Model loses the Flyer rule and becomes a Fast Skimmer instead. So currently this rule wouldn't matter in normal games of 40k if you were allowed to use this model).
> 
> Any model may take any of the following:
> Flare/Chaff launcher: One use only. If Immobilised from a shooting attack may re-roll the damage roll but must apply second roll.
> Armoured Cockpit: If stunned or shaken, roll D6 and on 4+ it is ignored.
> Ilum Flares: One use only. During Night fight a vehicle spotted by the vehicle may be illuminated with the flares so other vehicle may shoot it. This with searchlight basically allows you to light up 2 vehicles during night fighting games.
> Searchlight
> 
> May take 1 weapon for the Improvised Weapons Mounts:
> TL- Multilaser
> Two Hellstrike Missiles
> TL-Autocannon
> Two TL-Heavy Stubbers
> 
> Cost is just over that of 2 Rhinos. Neat little vehicle but I'd rather see the regular Valkyrie or Vendetta available to the Sisters of Battle as they use those in some BL books where they are mentioned.
> 
> Perhaps there are more entries allowing Sisters to use the vehicle but this is the only one I've see so far. Plastic kit for this perhaps? Not sure what the point would be but it's not impossible. Perhaps we would see a Summer of Fliers thing with 6E as the Flyer rule is rumoured to be included as a new Vehicle type.
> 
> Other than this I got pretty much nothing from Games Day, the developers didn't want to talk about it as they are bound by the NDA signed to GW. During the Seminar it was said that GWs goal was to make ppl excited about their products and that's the reason behind the rumours blockout but I think it's having the opposite effect and that it's basically killing the online community as there is almost nothing to talk about any more.
> 
> The people who provide rumours are one of the few things keeping the community alive. This is just my opinion though and only relates to the rumours and news section rather than painting, gaming etc.
> 
> Saving and uploading my first video now.


The Arvus is neat but its not a military vehicle really. We were already able to use this before since it is an IoM vehicle. Its not that good really since you have to buy any guns for it and they can't fire while in flyer mode so you can only shoot one or two of them at a time. I guess it is an improvement over how it was before, but I want my Sisters to have a real military dropship vehicle. In Apoc I have taken to using Valkyries for my Sisters already.


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## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> Saving and uploading my first video now.


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> The only Sisters of Battle info I managed to get from Games Day was the entry in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition book.
> 
> Arvus Lighter
> In non-Apocalypse games, or where the Flyer rules are not being used, treat the Arvus Lighter as a Fast Skimmer instead. 1-3 Arvus Lighters may be taken as a Fast Attack choice for Codex Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle or Vraksian Renegade army. These Lighters do not need to form a squadron and are treated separately in the game.
> 
> BS 3 10/10/10
> Transport: 12 or 6 models on 40mm bases or in terminator armour
> Fire Points: None
> Weapons and Equipment: None
> Special Rules: Improvised Weapons Mounts (Can only fire a mounted weapon if in Hoover mode. Hover mode: Model loses the Flyer rule and becomes a Fast Skimmer instead. So currently this rule wouldn't matter in normal games of 40k if you were allowed to use this model).
> 
> Any model may take any of the following:
> Flare/Chaff launcher: One use only. If Immobilised from a shooting attack may re-roll the damage roll but must apply second roll.
> Armoured Cockpit: If stunned or shaken, roll D6 and on 4+ it is ignored.
> Ilum Flares: One use only. During Night fight a vehicle spotted by the vehicle may be illuminated with the flares so other vehicle may shoot it. This with searchlight basically allows you to light up 2 vehicles during night fighting games.
> Searchlight
> 
> May take 1 weapon for the Improvised Weapons Mounts:
> TL- Multilaser
> Two Hellstrike Missiles
> TL-Autocannon
> Two TL-Heavy Stubbers
> 
> Cost is just over that of 2 Rhinos. Neat little vehicle but I'd rather see the regular Valkyrie or Vendetta available to the Sisters of Battle as they use those in some BL books where they are mentioned.


Huh. Interesting set up I suppose. I'm not big on the "improvised weapon mount" rule personally. I just don't see the Sisters, an organization that roots out Heresy in it's many forms, often leading it to the front lines of conflicts and crusades, using something that -isn't- able to handle combat.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Perhaps there are more entries allowing Sisters to use the vehicle but this is the only one I've see so far. Plastic kit for this perhaps? Not sure what the point would be but it's not impossible. Perhaps we would see a Summer of Fliers thing with 6E as the Flyer rule is rumoured to be included as a new Vehicle type.


Hm. Maybe. I'm still not 100% convinced we're going to have fliers in 6th Edition but it's not impossible I guerss.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Other than this I got pretty much nothing from Games Day, the developers didn't want to talk about it as they are bound by the NDA signed to GW. During the Seminar it was said that GWs goal was to make ppl excited about their products and that's the reason behind the rumours blockout but I think it's having the opposite effect and that it's basically killing the online community as there is almost nothing to talk about any more.


That's a bummer really. I was hoping that people would be willing to slip some vague statements we can spend the next three years deciphering what they really meant only to get it wrong and get something else instead (I'm being conservative with my estimate on how soon/late the full codex will be).



MadCowCrazy said:


> The people who provide rumours are one of the few things keeping the community alive. This is just my opinion though and only relates to the rumours and news section rather than painting, gaming etc.
> 
> Saving and uploading my first video now.


Hm. It's a good point you're making. A lot of the blogs I see are heavilly based around news and without news....well there isn't anything to talk about. :/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Part 1 of the seminar is up now


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## mahavira

Very interesting thus far, though I have to wonder where on earth they got good feedback on the SoB webdex, as 85%+ of the chatter I've seen has been not only negative but melodramatically so.


----------



## Doelago

mahavira said:


> Very interesting thus far, though I have to wonder where on earth they got good feedback on the SoB webdex, as 85%+ of the chatter I've seen has been not only negative but melodramatically so.


Does that not leave 15%- left to like it? 


Cant wait to get home and watch that with a good cup of coffee.


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## Grogbart

"... we didn't want the Dark Eldar to feel, like something we haven't touched in ten years and then we came back and did the book and we'll never do it again..." Part 1, 10:27

Unlike an other army, which didn't get its own part in battle missions, didn't get a full fledged book and they didn't even care enough to remove its old Errata after release!
If you don't know which army I mean, I'll give you some hints: 
-Apart from one vehicle box it's all metal
-The only army (I know of) presented on GW's website only half painted
-One army (of two) they didn't bother to do even one Finecast of
-An army neglected enough they forgot they packed the Rhino option in its only Box and thus present two types of Rhinos in its Product List
...

"...received some lovely letters from people, thanking him for his work on Sisters of Battle..." Part 2, 4:29

I'm not too familiar with everyday use of English, so I ask, is it just me, to feel the "lovely" here is out of place? 
Sounds like Irony to me, but then again, I'm a very unhappy Sisters fan right now!
If not, it seems like GW blockade is working both ways, not only do no rumours leak from GW, also customer opinion no longer gets in. Not that they ever cared about it, anyway!

"Is it acceptable to have to wait ten years for a codex...?"
Answer: Yes, in order to get it right!

Right?!? As in a new Codex does not need Errata just after release!? Doesn't seem to work out if you ask me!



Well, thanks to you, MadCowCrazy for your relentless efforts and my commiseration to GW's miserable cooperation!

By the way, no one answering questions about future plans, I can understand, that's their policy now, but did they really not even answer questions about the just released WDex?


----------



## SilverTabby

Heh, one possible reason for not wanting to answer questions on Sisters is that the proper Dex is being worked on, and answering questions could lead to confusion and slip-ups. I've known that to happen before :wink: I played 40k recently with someone who'd been working on 6th ed for over a year, and he had to keep looking up old rules and occasionally did something I really wasn't expecting, then looked surprised when I went "what?"


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## Zion

Thanks for the videos MadCowCrazy!

I'm a little surprised how much that guy could talk without actually saying anything useful. 

I can understand that GW takes as long as it takes to put out what they consider a polished product (it'll never escape erratas and FAQs because let's face it, players will always have questions), but the comment that Sisters may not get an update until after he was dead...well that was obnoxious.

While I'm happy the codex got some of the things they needed (namely some decent close combat support) I do wish the codex had gotten some real focus instead. 

And some real new models. Christ, I would love some plastic kits (I'd even like some Finecast if they kept it to the Penitent Engine, and the characters, and maybe the Seraphim (to make them less top-heavy and add in some Inferno Pistols as an options). 

You know it's sad when the fan base clambers for any attention and even offers to throw money at the company, and free ideas and the like and still don't get even a little bit of recognition or love back. :/


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## MadCowCrazy

Grogbart said:


> By the way, no one answering questions about future plans, I can understand, that's their policy now, but did they really not even answer questions about the just released WDex?


I asked the guy to the far left of the seminar, who happens to be responsible for the quality of the WD release, about it and he was very defensive about it. As I had handed over what was basically a CV I did not want to end up on the wrong foot with them by asking difficult questions.

I will tell you guys one thing I learnt though.

Consider this:
If the WD dex would have been balanced and really awesome, great rules and competitive units. However the new kits were not ready and finecast would have been a huge "waste of money" so nothing would have been released.
As the current models are too expensive for most people the only realistic option would have been competitors products.
Competitors would have seen the need for models and within a month or two there would have been resin models popping up on quite allot of places like what happened with SW wolves and Spore Pods for Nids.
So after long considerations the best option was to make a "sub par" codex that would generate little interest and with models available no competitor would make models as the demand would have been so low.

I'm not saying someone might have let something like this slip :crazy: but just think about it for a bit.


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## Revarien

So they made it intentionally crummy so competition didn't want to compete?

Isn't that kinda like shooting your own foot just to prove you could?

But hey, thanks a BUNCH for that seminar video and the walking around games day vid... was fairly enlightening. I got out of it that while the folks are trying to make good products, they're definitely run by 'corporate heads': not the people that really are hobbyists... The big reason I don't see it run by anyone that is a hobbyist, is that any hobbyist will tell ya that they have a budget for their hobby (otherwise it's not a hobby to that person and something entirely different... or they don't have to budget anything). And anyone on a budget would like to know what is in the future so they can plan to purchase their items... 

In fact the only reason I purchased Dreadfleet was because I had some semblance of an idea it was coming out... there would have been no way I was gonna drop $115 USD if I had a week notice: thankfully the rumor mills (such as heresy and dakka) had the low-down.

This is the biggest problem I have with them doing this 'hidden release' scheduling, is that it caters to outlets and resellers (especially with limited releases), while the common hobbyist is left out.


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I asked the guy to the far left of the seminar, who happens to be responsible for the quality of the WD release, about it and he was very defensive about it. As I had handed over what was basically a CV I did not want to end up on the wrong foot with them by asking difficult questions.
> 
> I will tell you guys one thing I learnt though.
> 
> Consider this:
> If the WD dex would have been balanced and really awesome, great rules and competitive units. However the new kits were not ready and finecast would have been a huge "waste of money" so nothing would have been released.
> As the current models are too expensive for most people the only realistic option would have been competitors products.
> Competitors would have seen the need for models and within a month or two there would have been resin models popping up on quite allot of places like what happened with SW wolves and Spore Pods for Nids.
> So after long considerations the best option was to make a "sub par" codex that would generate little interest and with models available no competitor would make models as the demand would have been so low.
> 
> I'm not saying someone might have let something like this slip :crazy: but just think about it for a bit.


...That's actually a little TOO plausible, but I can see the logic, and to be honest it's a little frustrating to think that the codex might have been hampered -intentionally- just to ensure profits. If it IS true, the smarter answer would have been to errata the Witch Hunters codex (again) and finish the real thing ASAP.


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## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> So after long considerations the best option was to make a "sub par" codex that would generate little interest and with models available no competitor would make models as the demand would have been so low.
> 
> I'm not saying someone might have let something like this slip :crazy: but just think about it for a bit.


Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Or, in this case, simple lack of time and will.


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## andrewm9

Ok, I watched a bunch of the videos on that and I had to chuckle at a lot of the statements, particularly about the Sisters. Let me take a moment here from diatribe to thank MCC for his work in bringing this to us. Its much appreciated.

They liked to use phrases exciting, new tools and well recieved. teh White dwarf codex is none fo those things though exciting is in the players mind so I can only speak for myself in that regard. The part I found really hilarious is that this codex brings Sisters in line with Grey Knights. It does nothing of the sort as Codex: Grey Knights really stomps on Sisters very well. The Sisters player cannot have any streaky Exorcists shots or bad dice rolling against Grey Knights. "New things to do." as a catch phrase for the new dex is also rather funny as there is nothing really new about the codex since the only unit that might remotely be considered new is the Battle Conclave and that is a Grey Knight 'hand me down'. 

I feel a bit insulted by the speaker becuase tis clear that GW did not have any intention of giving us anything real with this codex. The only thing I think that is looking up for us is that at least they are paying some attention at the moment since we finally have some Battle Missions and love in Cities of Death. Maybe we will get some useful Apoc formations in the future.


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## Suijin

Kinda hard for GW to complain about competitors releasing things like SW Thunderwolves when GW hasn't even released one. Realistically they aren't losing any money to anyone because they haven't even bothered to show up. Mostly it maybe points more to them releasing more models faster, but I'm sure that's easier for me to say than for them to do.

I understand they didn't have models ready for release of a SoB codex, and that is ultimitely why there was no real codex. They make the most money off the models and if they aren't ready to sell then there is no release. Still would have made more sense to just modify the existing Witch Hunters codex some to something acceptable to them.


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## Creon

That's exactly what this Sister's release is. Killing Witch Hunters. It's the same codex, rationalized for the current game. Grey knights got the ]I[, Sisters got the shaft. They trimmed and modified it so that existing armies can play semi-competitively while they make new models and a new edition codex.


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## andrewm9

Creon said:


> That's exactly what this Sister's release is. Killing Witch Hunters. It's the same codex, rationalized for the current game. Grey knights got the ]I[, Sisters got the shaft. They trimmed and modified it so that existing armies can play semi-competitively while they make new models and a new edition codex.


I've said it before and I will say it again thats a dumb reason. It doesn't bring Sisters in line with 5th edition. The stated philosophy in design according to the seminar is to bring fun, new, and exciting stuff to 40 with each release. I think this fails on all counts. Its not new for sure since the codex contains nothing innovative and all units existed before for the most part. Battle Conclaves are repackaged from Grey Knights and thats not really new as they were already there but skinned differently. Exciting is relative of course. My excitement was short lived after I read the rules.


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## Zion

Azezel said:


> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Or, in this case, simple lack of time and will.


I'd still leave the option open for malice. Or in the case of this possibility putting the £ before the player base (which is why I think it might ring a little _too_ true).



Creon said:


> That's exactly what this Sister's release is. Killing Witch Hunters. It's the same codex, rationalized for the current game. Grey knights got the ]I[, Sisters got the shaft. They trimmed and modified it so that existing armies can play semi-competitively while they make new models and a new edition codex.


I can't really say Sisters got the shaft. They didn't become unplayable, just different. They aren't just the close ranged shoot-things-to-death army anymore (still possible, you just need to put 2-3 Battle Sister Squads onto a unit of Tact Marines to do well that way, or run units of 20 and double up on them to do enough wounds to make them even think of breaking).

Personally I've found the best tactic involves pairing a unit that is pretty solid in close-combat with one of the shooting units (say Celestine and Seraphim with hand flamers), shoot the heck out of the target unit with the shooting unit and smash into the target unit with the close-combat unit. Basically it's the same kind of thing Eldar players do: shoot with the units that shoot well and assault with the units that assault well. 

Sisters: Shoot and save like Marines, fight and deal/take wounds and leadership test like Guard and work like Eldar with no psychic powers. 

So basically they're the ultimate hybrid army with only some of the perks and all of the disadvantages of the armies they take attributes from.


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## Azezel

Zion said:


> I'd still leave the option open for malice. Or in the case of this possibility putting the £ before the player base (which is why I think it might ring a little _too_ true).


Games Workshop is a publicly traded company, not Father Christmas. They don't exist to make toys for good boys and girls. They exist to make money for their shareholders. The directors have a legal responcibillity to try and do that to the best of their ability.

We can complain about a lot of things, but not that.

Now I personally believe that Games Workshop could make a lot more money if they didn't let all other armies go hang in favour of Marines. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. But they _are_ making a profit, and they are making a profit from a luxury product in a hell of a recession. Can't nobody fault them there.

I also believe that Sisters of Battle have the potential to make a fortune for Games Workshop. We've all seen dozens of people, online and in RL who've said "I'd collect Sisters if they were plastic".

In 2002 GW ran a poll asking what models people most wanted in plastic. Sisters won by a significant margin. The top four were Sisters, Valhallans, Red Corsairs and Cadians in that order . In 2003 we finally got those plastic Cadians that everybody was clamouring for...

_However_ I can also understand that, right now, Sisters are by far the least popular army and currently, are nothing but a drain on GW's profitability.

I _think_ GW could increase its profits by throwing a little love our way.

I _Know_ GW could increase their proffits by squatting the army.

GW know that too. And in these harsh economic times, I can fully see why they do what they do.

It's not malice. I think the WD codex was equal parts incompetence and indifference, but GW's whole approach to Sisters is simply sound, low-risk policy.


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## MadCowCrazy

Some Games Day information here, it confirms what I was told at Games Day as well. We are in for a long wait it seems.
Source


kitch102 said:


> - Necrons are not far off, though no specific launch date stated, no information on models etc. Some of what was said in the seminar hinted at a launch style similar to that of the DE (wave 1, wave 1.5 mini release, wave 2, followed by fillers etc). One interesting point was as soon as you could finish saying "Nec..." the staff shut up like a threatened murder witness. Could this mean that something is nearing fruition? Pure speculation on my part, but there was a MASSIVE lack of necron items aside from those brought by the staffs gaming tables, that would say to me that they're getting ready for an announcement. I quizzed one of the 'eavy metal guys on why the 'cron 'dex was no longer on the site and was given the "we're working on many..." lines (again), I think you 'cron players will be happy very soon but have no facts to back this up, just my gut feeling.
> 
> - The SoB WD codex was released purely as a stop gap to bring them in line with the grey knights release, they haven't neglected you SoB players and wanted to give you something as quickly as they could that was playable and relevant to the current game.


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## SilverTabby

Azezel said:


> _However_ I can also understand that, right now, Sisters are by far the least popular army and currently, are nothing but a drain on GW's profitability.
> 
> I _think_ GW could increase its profits by throwing a little love our way.
> 
> I _Know_ GW could increase their proffits by squatting the army.
> 
> GW know that too. And in these harsh economic times, I can fully see why they do what they do.


How exactly would it profit them to squat the army? They don't cast and box up any new product until orders come in for it, and if no new orders are coming in then they aren't wasting money on it...


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## MadCowCrazy

Oh yeah, Matt Ward said that the Sisters 100% will not get squatted. So that idea can be rubbed against your ring muscle and thrown in the trash :crazy:


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh yeah, Matt Ward said that the Sisters 100% will not get squatted. So that idea can be rubbed against your ring muscle and thrown in the trash :crazy:


Well there's one bright spot in my day at least.

Honestly I don't know how squatting Sisters would _MAKE_ them money. Perhaps prevent them from _losing_ money, but seeing as GW has stated that not only do they want to keep working on the armies they have, they have no intentions of dropping any of them I don't see them being dropped. 

I DO see them pulling a Dark Eldar on us though. Eventually we'll get new models and GW will start seeing a LOT of money rolling in from the dedicated Sisters players who want to update/expand their armies and everyone who even thinks the idea of nuns with guns being cool (and anyone who wants them for female space marine conversions ).

We the players know there is a market out there for Sisters (hell give me a plastic release of them next week and I'll be broke before my paycheck has even cleared the bank!) but the real question does GW? 

Or is it that they know but they don't know how to please it since it's almost like a niche group when compared to the other players who have codices that fall into more conventional molds of play and strategy.

I mentioned it earlier: Sisters are like Sisters. We are a blend of several things (the big three to me being Marines, Guard and Eldar) which make us unlike how the other armies play. Add in the Faith system (mostly minor, uncounterable abilities that do, at times, make a big difference to how the turn unfolds). 

I can see why GW is having problems with updating the Sisters and expanding the army. They suffer similar issues that the Dark Eldar did. They're only like themselves and without any real inspiration or new ideas the army is...rather stuck at the moment. Someone probably has some ideas kicking around somewhere, but they might not be enough. Who knows? It's hard to tell what's going on behind that silent front GW has going for it, but I'm sure something is. I'm just hoping it'll be even better than anything I can think of.


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## MadCowCrazy

Listening to Red & Black now. They just said that the Arvus landed....
Another hint that the Sisters will get Arvus Lighters?


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## mahavira

Hadn't heard of Arvus landers when I listened to it, so didin't catch that. Otherwise not a lot to say, other than Miriya continues to lack any semblance of personality and the henchnuns continue to be names attached to bolters. Hammer and Anvil will probably be more informative (assuming Swallow actually knows anything about what's coming).


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## Shandathe

Huh... I'd honestly have expected the Lightning, given the way Soulstorm's fliers have been appearing... An Arvus would be a flying transport though, and especially if it has an assault ramp it might be a good thing to have.


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## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Huh... I'd honestly have expected the Lightning, given the way Soulstorm's fliers have been appearing... An Arvus would be a flying transport though, and especially if it has an assault ramp it might be a good thing to have.


As it's not a military vehicle it wont come with anything special like assault ramps and such. Heck even the weapons are pretty meh.
It's nothing more than a fast transport, not sure what you would to deliver with it. Death Cultists perhaps or something like that but as for Sisters I'm not sure. It's not like you want to rush in with your Sisters as you'd get shot to pieces pretty fast or assaulted.
At 75pts each I'd rather take an immolator to be honest.


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> As it's not a military vehicle it wont come with anything special like assault ramps and such. Heck even the weapons are pretty meh.
> It's nothing more than a fast transport, not sure what you would to deliver with it. Death Cultists perhaps or something like that but as for Sisters I'm not sure. It's not like you want to rush in with your Sisters as you'd get shot to pieces pretty fast or assaulted.
> At 75pts each I'd rather take an immolator to be honest.


Agreed.

Rather than rehashing old units I'd love to get my hands on some new/unique stuff. Things the rest of the Imperium doesn't use due to the Ecclesiarch being the only ones who have it in any significant number.


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## OIIIIIIO

Zion said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Rather than rehashing old units I'd love to get my hands on some new/unique stuff. Things the rest of the Imperium doesn't use due to the Ecclesiarch being the only ones who have it in any significant number.


The Sisters already have that ... we call them bOObs.


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## Zion

OIIIIIIO said:


> The Sisters already have that ... we call them bOObs.


Not really what I meant. Good try though. I meant that I think that the Sisters should be packing a little more unique tech to work with. Unfortunately I don't really have any -real- suggestions off hand, but expanding the options the girls can take would be nice at least (Stalker Pattern Bolters perhaps (Sniper Sisters!)? Celestines with Artificer Armor and the ability to take Eviscerators and Storm Shields? Just some random thoughts I just had....).


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## MadCowCrazy

Eviscerators are 2 handed weapons so that with Storm Shields wouldn't work if that is what you meant.

In my document I made it so every single Celestian could take a Eviscerator if they wanted to do so. It did make them cost 30pts each but I figured they could be nasty together with Uriah receiving 4 attacks on the charge with re-rolls and feel no pain.


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Eviscerators are 2 handed weapons so that with Storm Shields wouldn't work if that is what you meant.


Eh, then Eviscerators and Rosarius and keep it less than Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer termies.


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## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> As it's not a military vehicle it wont come with anything special like assault ramps and such. Heck even the weapons are pretty meh.
> It's nothing more than a fast transport, not sure what you would to deliver with it. Death Cultists perhaps or something like that but as for Sisters I'm not sure. It's not like you want to rush in with your Sisters as you'd get shot to pieces pretty fast or assaulted.
> At 75pts each I'd rather take an immolator to be honest.


Maybe it doesn't have assault ramps (or maybe it does, in the sense that the means of entry/egress happen to naturally resemble them), but what about grav chute entry like a Valkyrie? Not that this is necessarily a huge benefit, just thinking out loud.


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## MadCowCrazy

Got the latest WD today, the Sisters get 3 Battle Missions in it.
Purge the Arch-Heretic
Recover the Relics
Defend the Shrine

There is also a 2 page battle report if you can call it that. It's basically a 2 page picture of some sisters and some orks. Battle report part is a side blurb. If they played the game at all I personally doubt as it just seems like made up gibberish.

Other than this the new citadel cleanup tools are listed no less than 3 times in the WD getting full page spreads to show them. There is a painting guide for pretty much every ship from Dreadfleet.


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Got the latest WD today, the Sisters get 3 Battle Missions in it.
> Purge the Arch-Heretic
> Recover the Relics
> Defend the Shrine
> 
> There is also a 2 page battle report if you can call it that. It's basically a 2 page picture of some sisters and some orks. Battle report part is a side blurb. If they played the game at all I personally doubt as it just seems like made up gibberish.
> 
> Other than this the new citadel cleanup tools are listed no less than 3 times in the WD getting full page spreads to show them. There is a painting guide for pretty much every ship from Dreadfleet.


Sooooo.....Battle Missions are pretty much the only good thing then?


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## MadCowCrazy

Just read the battle missions and the second battle mission revealed something interesting.
The mission is to collect artefacts and you roll on a table when standing next to an objective and trying to recover an artefact. On a roll of a 5 you find a Blessed Weapon, it includes the rules for one saying its a Power Weapon that always wounds on 4+. So it's worse than before when fighting T5 or lower but better vs T6 and up.
I'd honestly rather take +2S than always wounds on 4+ but that's because I face more T3 and T4 than I do anything else.

So this is probably the way Blessed Weapons work now. So Saint Celestine has a Blessed Weapon. If you could use all BW as a Heavy Flamer in the shooting phase I'd love the change.


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## mahavira

Maybe it's just me, but the "defend the shrine" scenario looks nearly impossible to win unless sisters go first (and even then, pretty unlikely) - enemy assault specialists can deploy 6" away from the outer edge of your deployment zone.

Some stratagems for planetstrike, cities of death, and apocalypse would be nice (I think WD has over the years put out a grand total of 1 for planetstrike and 1 for cities of death), but probably have to wait for a real update.

One thing I am noticing is that I need more rhinos than I used to. Have to decide whether to go through the time of ordering an immolator kit or just using leftover parts to ecclesi-ize a SM rhino.


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## oiad

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'd honestly rather take +2S than always wounds on 4+ but that's because I face more T3 and T4 than I do anything else.


Not to turn this into another Ward-hate thread but it seems to me the writers caught on to how successful Blessed Weapons and NFWs were. Next thing you know, Space Marines suspiciously have the same item and the Sororitas and Grey Knights end up with something different instead. Sounds like another paranoid conspiracy, I know...

...but yeah, otherwise agreed - her Sword isn't quite so helpful now. Luckily she has a cheaper tag.


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## MadCowCrazy

As I dont think we will be hearing anything new about the Sisters for the next few years it might be time to close this thread down. Unless someone knows something that would keep this thread alive for a few more months I will be closing it down on Friday.


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## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> As I dont think we will be hearing anything new about the Sisters for the next few years it might be time to close this thread down. Unless someone knows something that would keep this thread alive for a few more months I will be closing it down on Friday.


Its a damn shame, but its probably true. At least we getting some attention with new Cities of Death and Battle Missions. Hopefully we get some Apocalypse formations in the near future also.


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## Kettu

Would it be a breach of NDA if a rumour monger was to tell us simply an eta in months or quarters _*(Or years)*_, when the new codex would arrive?

No delicates, just a vague three month or so date?


----------



## andrewm9

Kettu said:


> Would it be a breach of NDA if a rumour monger was to tell us simply an eta in months or quarters _*(Or years)*_, when the new codex would arrive?
> 
> No delicates, just a vague three month or so date?


Here we are already looking for a new codex.  You'd think no one was paying attention to us and got nothing. :grin: Seriously though I am of the same mind. Its the worst codex for 5th edition by far. I think its worse than Tyranids even. Like I said before though, we have tis codex for awhiel at least. Lets make the most of it. Think of the bragging rights if you thoroughly kick somebody's but with the worst of the 5th edition codices especially if its Space Wolves.


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## Zion

andrewm9 said:


> Here we are already looking for a new codex.  You'd think no one was paying attention to us and got nothing. :grin: Seriously though I am of the same mind. Its the worst codex for 5th edition by far. I think its worse than Tyranids even. Like I said before though, we have tis codex for awhiel at least. Lets make the most of it. Think of the bragging rights if you thoroughly kick somebody's but with the worst of the 5th edition codices especially if its Space Wolves.


I agree and disagree with this statement. It's worse in terms of actual effort but not in actual ability. 

I think what is making everyone mad (or at least is garnering most of the complaints overall) is the removal of ALL of the non-Ecclesiarchy based units. Those units (and allies) where what made Sisters more potent, they covered the flaws the Sisters innately have with how they were designed. Without them, the codex looks weaker and requires more effort to play well, as well as needing more initial thought into what you take in an army. 

But can it win? Yes. Yes it can. But unfortunately the road to winning with this codex doesn't leave much room for creativity in how you build an army.


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## mahavira

Matter of opinion, I guess. I'm getting much better results and having much more fun than I did with the Witch Hunters 'dex.


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## andrewm9

Zion said:


> I agree and disagree with this statement. It's worse in terms of actual effort but not in actual ability.
> 
> I think what is making everyone mad (or at least is garnering most of the complaints overall) is the removal of ALL of the non-Ecclesiarchy based units. Those units (and allies) where what made Sisters more potent, they covered the flaws the Sisters innately have with how they were designed. Without them, the codex looks weaker and requires more effort to play well, as well as needing more initial thought into what you take in an army.
> 
> But can it win? Yes. Yes it can. But unfortunately the road to winning with this codex doesn't leave much room for creativity in how you build an army.


Strangely I am not finding that the case. I never used allies or really any non Ecclesiarchy units except occasionally in Apocalypse games. Making allies work detracted too much IMO from the spirit of the army as it limited Faith. I'm not saying I haven't had success with the new codex, but many units really crumble in HTH combat now whereas before I could have a fighting chance. It was rare that I suffered a sweeping advance unless I wanted to. Now it happens almost every time I lose a combat just about. Though perhaps my seeming inability to make a power armor save doesn't help.  (for example my Rhino blows up and I lose 3 sisters to the explosion regularly. Inexplicable I tell you.) I also seem to fail more faith attempts now than ever before. My dice must just hate me.

I could care less about the removal of non-Ecclesiarchy units. They never figured into my wins with the WH codex ever. I care about losses of wargear such as the Eviscerator on my superiors, Blessed Weapons, and the Cloak of St Aspira amongst some things. i care about the downgrade of Faith and that I can only use it in my turn. Imagine if Blood Angels could only activate the ability to have Feel no Pain on a 4+ for a unit and then it only worked on thier turns. Sisters suffered through changes which were unneccessary. This codex is not an improvement in my opinion which it shoudl have been. I suppose Tyranid players migth sya the same thing. What other 5th ed codex went trhough similar changes/losses?


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## Azezel

Zion said:


> I think what is making everyone mad (or at least is garnering most of the complaints overall) is the removal of ALL of the non-Ecclesiarchy based units. Those units (and allies) where what made Sisters more potent, they covered the flaws the Sisters innately have with how they were designed.


I strongly disagree.

I never uses any non-Sororitas unit in the old dex and had no trouble winning regularly, even against Space Woofs and the new GK.


The new 'dex though. Jesus. How am I expected to get a tac-squad off of an objective without Divine Guidance? How am I supposed to hold an objective against a tac squad without the book of St. Lucius? I don't know.

No doubt certain things got better in the WD 'dex. 6++ vehicles and real rending for Retributors are occasionally useful tricks, but that's all they are. The things we actually need to win games got much much worse.

A friend of mine pointed out that I was hamstringing myself by not loading up on confessors and Ecclesiarchal riffraff, and that these units were what's supposed to win me games now. I suspect he's right but that's not a good thing. Particulalry since the codex has the phrase 'Sisters of Battle' built right into the title.


So yeah... Speaking only for myself, the thing that made me mad is not the removal of non-Sisters stuff - it's the requirement that I use non-Sisters stuff.


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## rasolyo

Like =I= troops in the GK codex?
I wouldn't be surprised if the full codex does it to Sisters.


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## SilverTabby

The only non-sisters units I used to take were inducted Guard. I can safely say I'm doing better with this list than the old one. My units are better in combat due to having both frags, kraks for tanks and bolt pistols for if I really have to charge. I do miss the book, but crying over spilt milk won't win me games - adapting will. 

There is nothing wrong with this dex that creative thinking won't fix. Get over it, it's here to stay until we get a full book.


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## Suijin

One Question I have for other people is what models have you not been able to order from GW?

I was not able to get Uriah Jacobus, this was about a month ago.

I was able to get St. Celestine, and I have Arch Confessor Kyrinov on order, I'll see if I get him.


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## Grogbart

SilverTabby said:


> The only non-sisters units I used to take were inducted Guard. I can safely say I'm doing better with this list than the old one. My units are better in combat due to having both frags, kraks for tanks and bolt pistols for if I really have to charge. I do miss the book, but crying over spilt milk won't win me games - adapting will.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this dex that creative thinking won't fix. Get over it, it's here to stay until we get a full book.


I'm glad for you, that the new WDex suits your taste. But if you want to start a career as a GW suppository, please do so, without telling us what we should like, what we should discuss about, and certainly not, by telling us to adapt to every piece of dump GW scat before us!

I'll admit this WDex is still quite a bit off of what I'd deem unacceptable and from a strictly competitive view its neither better nor worse to me, some things got better (Rhinos, ...), some got worse (AoF, missing options, ...).

However, there are many little things with this WDex, that make it a huge let down for me. First and foremost the use of Sisters as guinea pigs for something GW had failed before. The apparent lack of care shown by presenting a half painted army, the many incomprehensibilities in the codex and the WH errata still listed on their website.
Add to that my not-so-objective issues with the feel and the style of play of the new WDex, as well as the direction it's leading the Sisters.
Not even mentioning general issues about miniatures.

It seems we will be stuck with this WDex for quite some time and it might as well be true, that neither complaining nor discussing the problems will change that or the upcoming Codex. But not discussing it and pretending to be happy with it, won't change anything for certain!

PS: Guess what SilverTabby, some of us do not just play the game to win, some of us play, to have the kind of fun you can enjoy even if you lose:wink:


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## Zion

Grogbart said:


> I'm glad for you, that the new WDex suits your taste. But if you want to start a career as a GW suppository, please do so, without telling us what we should like, what we should discuss about, and certainly not, by telling us to adapt to every piece of dump GW scat before us!
> 
> I'll admit this WDex is still quite a bit off of what I'd deem unacceptable and from a strictly competitive view its neither better nor worse to me, some things got better (Rhinos, ...), some got worse (AoF, missing options, ...).
> 
> However, there are many little things with this WDex, that make it a huge let down for me. First and foremost the use of Sisters as guinea pigs for something GW had failed before. The apparent lack of care shown by presenting a half painted army, the many incomprehensibilities in the codex and the WH errata still listed on their website.
> Add to that my not-so-objective issues with the feel and the style of play of the new WDex, as well as the direction it's leading the Sisters.
> Not even mentioning general issues about miniatures.
> 
> It seems we will be stuck with this WDex for quite some time and it might as well be true, that neither complaining nor discussing the problems will change that or the upcoming Codex. But not discussing it and pretending to be happy with it, won't change anything for certain!
> 
> PS: Guess what SilverTabby, some of us do not just play the game to win, some of us play, to have the kind of fun you can enjoy even if you lose:wink:


For the love of Christ. While I can sympathize with the sentiment that the WD dex sucks (which no one will deny that it's not as good as what we SHOULD have gotten for Sisters instead) launching verbal assaults on people because they don't agree with you is ridiculous. This isn't Warseer or DakkaDakka, if you want to do that crap take it back there. 

Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win. You're trying to complete more of a particular objective by whatever means necessary given a points limit, codex and models. If you're NOT playing to win then you're obviously just painting armies and never fielding them. To claim that you never "play to win" is a load of crock anyone with half a brain knows it. 

And by the way, YES you can play to win without being a cheating douchenugget or bringing some uber-rock list to crush your opponent with. 

And YES you can in fact play to win AND be a good sport.

If you can't be a good sport and at the same time bring fun, challenging lists and play well enough to make it a good game (or teach your opponent where they're failing so THEY become better so they can be more of a challenge against you and not end with you continually tabling them) then maybe your in the wrong hobby. Just saying.

And before the whole idea of "playing for the fluff" gets tossed into the mix, consider this: Is it in the codex? Then guess what! IT'S CANON AND THEREFORE "FLUFFY". GW wrote the codex, and therefore determines what is "fluffy" not the internet. If you can't stand that, well, I can't help you there.


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## Azezel

Whilst I agree that Grogbart's comment was ungentlemanly (and was going to point that out myself) I have to take issue with this statement:



Zion said:


> Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win.


The _objective_ of the game is to win. The _point_ of the game is to have fun with my mates. There is a world of difference.

If the point of the game is to win then logically, any game you do not win was pointless - and that's not a good thing.


Which brings me on to the WD 'dex (funny that...). It's less fun. there, I said it.

I have my doubts about its competativeness, but don't much care about that. I care about the fun, because that's the damned point of the game.

It's less fun because it's taken away most of the things that were cool and replaced them with a small number of things that aren't. Or things which, more accurately, might be cool in a vacuum, but are not the things most of us love(d) the army for.

SilverTabby is half right. We're stuck with this 'dex (Well, you are, I'm still using the old one, but you know what I mean....) but we don't have to like it, and we don't have to get over it. Rage, rage against the dying of the light, y'know.

MCC is also right, I think this thread is no longer needed.


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## Zion

Azezel said:


> Whilst I agree that Grogbart's comment was ungentlemanly (and was going to point that out myself) I have to take issue with this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> The _objective_ of the game is to win. The _point_ of the game is to have fun with my mates. There is a world of difference.
> 
> If the point of the game is to win then logically, any game you do not win was pointless - and that's not a good thing.


Fair enough on the difference there. I was misleading with what I meant there. I don't mean that the only point in playing is to win, but that is the intent of both players. 

And any game you lose isn't pointless, it serves as a way to learn and improve. And in campaigns it adds layers to an overall story (as does winning but sometimes losing makes things more interesting).


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## Grogbart

Zion said:


> For the love of Christ. While I can sympathize with the sentiment that the WD dex sucks (which no one will deny that it's not as good as what we SHOULD have gotten for Sisters instead) launching verbal assaults on people because they don't agree with you is ridiculous. This isn't Warseer or DakkaDakka, if you want to do that crap take it back there.
> 
> Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win. You're trying to complete more of a particular objective by whatever means necessary given a points limit, codex and models. If you're NOT playing to win then you're obviously just painting armies and never fielding them. To claim that you never "play to win" is a load of crock anyone with half a brain knows it.
> 
> And by the way, YES you can play to win without being a cheating douchenugget or bringing some uber-rock list to crush your opponent with.
> 
> And YES you can in fact play to win AND be a good sport.
> 
> If you can't be a good sport and at the same time bring fun, challenging lists and play well enough to make it a good game (or teach your opponent where they're failing so THEY become better so they can be more of a challenge against you and not end with you continually tabling them) then maybe your in the wrong hobby. Just saying.
> 
> And before the whole idea of "playing for the fluff" gets tossed into the mix, consider this: Is it in the codex? Then guess what! IT'S CANON AND THEREFORE "FLUFFY". GW wrote the codex, and therefore determines what is "fluffy" not the internet. If you can't stand that, well, I can't help you there.


First point, I do not want to start any personal arguments.
I did allow myself to let a bit of my temper dye my post, to signify my annoyance of the topic in question, within what I deemed 'still civil'.
I'm not the kind of person, who goes to the football stadion, sitting calm the whole game and wondering why the people around me are making such a fuss, cheering their team, booing at bad referee decisions and rejoicing goals. To me that is passion and living it out is very much a part of why I play 40k.
If my picture of being civil does not apply to the one the community has, I'll gladly accept that, if I'm being told so by a moderator.

Second point, a) read my posts properly! 
I do not have anything against people with differing options.
I did complain about being told what to do or think, ala "Get over it!".

b) read my post fully!
Just because I do not play *just* to win, doesn't mean I do not try to to win at all. (Or did I put the 'just' in my original post so wrong? I wasn't really sure were to put it in that sentence to be honest)

c) don't read anything into my post I haven't written!
Where the hell did I say anything like "You couldn't play to win without cheating...!"?

Now back to discussing!
"...the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win." So, spending a joyful evening with your buddies playing a game of 40k is completely pointless just because you lose?!? You can't be serious! If you are, you're a very pitiful human being.

On the 'What GW writes is law'-thing. You're right, GW can write any fluff they want (Orks being pacifists, Black Templars being cowards, Dark Eldar being kind-hearted, Space Wolfs being shaved, ...) but there are borders as to how far we, the community (the "internet", the players, the customers) are willing to follow. No community, no customers (nearly none, some will always buy anything!) no sales! 
The opinion of the community is shaped by the opinions of its members. GW doesn't seem to care about our opinion and your very right in assuming, that I can't stand that! But why the hell do we have forums like this, if not to hear other opinions, enabling us to get a picture of what the rest of the community thinks and feels?

Damn I could argue all night but I have to get some sleep (and sorry for not fiddling out everything being clarified by posts in the meantime), so good night and (since this threat is closing on Friday) thanks to all you mates, its been fun participating in this lively threat and special thanks to MCC!


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## jaysen

Grogbart said:


> On the 'What GW writes is law'-thing. You're right, GW can write any fluff they want (Orks being pacifists, Black Templars being cowards, Dark Eldar being kind-hearted, Space Wolfs being shaved, ...)


What? Is Matt Ward writing more codices? Shaved Space Wolves sound fun. Dark Eldar volunteering at the retirement home, passing out skim milk and crackers, what a lovely addition to the grimdark!


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## SilverTabby

Grogbart said:


> I'm glad for you, that the new WDex suits your taste. But if you want to start a career as a GW suppository, please do so, without telling us what we should like, what we should discuss about, and certainly not, by telling us to adapt to every piece of dump GW scat before us!
> 
> I'll admit this WDex is still quite a bit off of what I'd deem unacceptable and from a strictly competitive view its neither better nor worse to me, some things got better (Rhinos, ...), some got worse (AoF, missing options, ...).
> 
> However, there are many little things with this WDex, that make it a huge let down for me. First and foremost the use of Sisters as guinea pigs for something GW had failed before. The apparent lack of care shown by presenting a half painted army, the many incomprehensibilities in the codex and the WH errata still listed on their website.
> Add to that my not-so-objective issues with the feel and the style of play of the new WDex, as well as the direction it's leading the Sisters.
> Not even mentioning general issues about miniatures.
> 
> It seems we will be stuck with this WDex for quite some time and it might as well be true, that neither complaining nor discussing the problems will change that or the upcoming Codex. But not discussing it and pretending to be happy with it, won't change anything for certain!
> 
> PS: Guess what SilverTabby, some of us do not just play the game to win, some of us play, to have the kind of fun you can enjoy even if you lose:wink:


First, I do not play to win. Never have, and have never advocated playing purely to do so. None of my posts have ever advocated that, in fact they've railed against it in many cases. What I have issue with here, is everyone who complains that "this Dex is s**t, you _can't_ win with it", which is pure rubbish. Hence my comments of "use creative thinking".

Second, the words "get over it" are not "stop discussing it". I mean stop whining about things you can't change and discuss ways of working with what you've got instead of throwing sulks as several posters are. :wink: I have a 2year old daughter who throws less tantrums than some Sisters players on this forum. 

And I'm afraid that yes, you do have to adapt to what GW gives you unless you only play with mates at home. It's the nature of the game that it changes, and GW dictates those changes. As someone who has been playing a lot with this new list of late, I do object when folk refer to it as "scat". It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, _more_ balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.

And what on earth are people talking about, "half-painted army"? Page references and specific pictures, please?

Please note, the uses of the word "you" in this post are not aimed at one person, but intended in the general plural. Forums and the English language do not always mix in the intended fashion, and this is not aimed at one person.


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## Sworn Radical

Some people seriously need some changes to their medication ... 

Outright ridiculous how folks can get this upset over a discussion about a tabletop game (and not even the game itself at that). :shok:


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, _more_ balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.


My thoughts exactly. Heck it's _easy_ to build a list with 30+ Power Weapons in it. You can even go over 50 in a single list with some creative building!


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## Suijin

It is possible to win with the codex. I just did versus Necrons, but my issues are more the flexibility of the codex and tactics. These are:

No Reserves roll modification
Only Seraphim and St. Celestine can deepstrike, and only dominions can outflank. They are both in the fast attack slot. Also we have no infiltrators.
No psychic defense
No ordnance, blast, or barrage
No options for other troops based on HQ taken
Most of our heavy hitters in assault have Rage
No stealth
No faith usage in opponents turn
No fast movement
Almost all short range weapons
Lacking many LD modifications
No one of these is that bad, and many codices have some of these, but we have all of them. I realize most of these come from an incomplete WD codex vs. a full release, but that doesn't change the above points.
I'll still play this dex as it is my primary army and you can win with it, but there is no denying it is incomplete/unfinished/wanting.


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## Grogbart

SilverTabby, I'm sorry for accusing you to play only to win! What led me to believe so, was this comment:


SilverTabby said:


> ... crying over spilt milk won't win me games - adapting will.


And congratulations on achieving something I could not: staying calmk:



SilverTabby said:


> First, I do not play to win. Never have, and have never advocated playing purely to do so. None of my posts have ever advocated that, in fact they've railed against it in many cases. What I have issue with here, is everyone who complains that "this Dex is s**t, you _can't_ win with it", which is pure rubbish. Hence my comments of "use creative thinking".
> 
> Second, the words "get over it" are not "stop discussing it". I mean stop whining about things you can't change and discuss ways of working with what you've got instead of throwing sulks as several posters are. :wink: I have a 2year old daughter who throws less tantrums than some Sisters players on this forum.
> 
> And I'm afraid that yes, you do have to adapt to what GW gives you unless you only play with mates at home. It's the nature of the game that it changes, and GW dictates those changes. As someone who has been playing a lot with this new list of late, I do object when folk refer to it as "scat". It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, _more_ balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.
> 
> And what on earth are people talking about, "half-painted army"? Page references and specific pictures, please?
> 
> Please note, the uses of the word "you" in this post are not aimed at one person, but intended in the general plural. Forums and the English language do not always mix in the intended fashion, and this is not aimed at one person.


There are more than just two opinions about this WDex, mine for example is "this Dex is s**t, _even though_ you can win with it".

Adapting my strategies and style of play to new circumstances, is something I am very much able to (if my brain is up to it!).
But whether I can enjoy a game/my army has almost nothing to do with adapting to anything. While I can't change what GW released, I can decide to stop playing 40k. But that's a decision I won't take lightly, as I have spent considerable amounts of time and money into my models. Furthermore the thing with emotions is, they are very subjective, sometimes a usually fun thing to do isn't just because I have a bad day. So it's either playing the new dex month after month to make sure those bad days don't ruin my ability to judge OR inform myself how other players feel. (Of course paying attention to the fact, that people happy with something, usually don't run to internet just to state they have nothing to complain about and thus the general image shown is always a bit darker than it should!)

On the other hand, having to wait a long time for an update and receiving this WDex can be a bit of a trauma! Talking about it and finding people who feel the same as you can be quite relieving. What you may call whining, is something others may call therapy!:grin:

As such I still see the "get over it!" part critically, because it's still ordering people what to say and what not. And that's a moderators job, I think.

Finally, the requested link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/we/dont/care/about/sisters.jsp?aId=17700021a


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## TheKingElessar

There's a debate?

Really??

This Dex is inferior to the other 5e ones, even Nids.

It has fewer options, fewer units, fewer weapons, more overpriced stuff, and less of a Competitive edge to the one build you can make, nevermind multiple builds.

I wrote an army list I was happy with, and felt could compete with my other armies at 2k.

It came to 2546 points.

'Nuff said.


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## Zion

TheKingElessar said:


> There's a debate?
> 
> Really??
> 
> This Dex is inferior to the other 5e ones, even Nids.
> 
> It has fewer options, fewer units, fewer weapons, more overpriced stuff, and less of a Competitive edge to the one build you can make, nevermind multiple builds.
> 
> I wrote an army list I was happy with, and felt could compete with my other armies at 2k.
> 
> It came to 2546 points.
> 
> 'Nuff said.


That's odd because I've made lists that have served quite well at the same point total as my opponent. Do I wish I had more toys? Sure, who doesn't want to try some of those extra shiny things? But I've made do without and do quite nicely so far.

Quite honestly with this army the "secret" is to levy your strengths to their weaknesses. It can and does win quite nicely just because of the extra girls you have on the table (thanks to things getting overall cheaper) meaning you can soak up more wounds overall.

EDIT: Just redid my 2K list and realized I've been using a 1750 one instead. And that tied once against a 2K list (Blood Angels in KP) and beat 2K of Necrons.


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## Suijin

*TheKingElessar* may have a point if you are talking about the most competitive lists out there, like say GK purifier spam. I can't imagine being competitive with that army at the same points level. Repentia will be cut down due to the power weapons and cleansing flame, so aren't going to be as effective (due to no FNP vs power weapons). DCA should still do well, but 1 unit can't carry the whole army, unless you are playing only a 350 point game or something.


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## MadCowCrazy

Suijin said:


> It is possible to win with the codex. I just did versus Necrons........


Not to spoil the mood but beating the most outdated codex in the game isn't exactly hard to do. Sure there are some builds with Necrons that can be very competitive like destroyer spam but it comes short vs every 5E codex. Sisters I do not count as a 5E army though, as it's worse (my opinion) than the 3E one.

I will be closing this thread in a few hours so unless I can get some new rumours or anything it's time to say goodbye to this thread for now.


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## SilverTabby

Just a quick note on that provided link, given I'm on my phone and not a computer.

That is a hobby article, based on Robin's personal army. Did you read what was written underneath? The bit that was unpainted was one unit, added in recently, that he specifically explains he hasn't painted yet as it's new. 

If it was an actual tactica or WD article with unpainted figures I'd understand, but this is an online hobby article, which explains itself. This is nothing new, and not the personal insult many seem to be taking it as...


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## Grogbart

SilverTabby said:


> Just a quick note on that provided link, given I'm on my phone and not a computer.
> 
> That is a hobby article, based on Robin's personal army. Did you read what was written underneath? The bit that was unpainted was one unit, added in recently, that he specifically explains he hasn't painted yet as it's new.
> 
> If it was an actual tactica or WD article with unpainted figures I'd understand, but this is an online hobby article, which explains itself. This is nothing new, and not the personal insult many seem to be taking it as...


It was on GW's official homepage and it's not like they didn't manage to present EVERY other release with a fully painted army. 
It being a hobby article, to me, just seems like GW didn't bother, doing a proper article (although I admit, not being the most objective mind on that matter).

And not having finished painting because it was new!?! What a stupid excuse is that!! 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those models are old. The only thing left for me to believe is nobody at GW has bothers even the slightest about Sisters and certainly no one playing/having/painting sisters in all the years since the WH Codex.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you wrote, but there is always more than one way to see things! Ours are obviously different.


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## Suijin

Ah will be sad to see this thread closed, one of the few things on the internet worth reading.

The only thing I thought might be interesting to still figure out is which models they aren't selling anymore to gauge the possibility of them actually getting the real release all done and scheduled. Them having old models still on the shelf presents no incentive for them to get busy with the new ones to sell.

I couldn't get Uriah Jacobus.

I did get St. Celestine. 

These were both about a month ago. I can also contact a store I know who ordered more SoB stuff some of which he said he didn't get in to figure out more. That's all I had though.


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## Zion

Suijin said:


> Ah will be sad to see this thread closed, one of the few things on the internet worth reading.
> 
> The only thing I thought might be interesting to still figure out is which models they aren't selling anymore to gauge the possibility of them actually getting the real release all done and scheduled. Them having old models still on the shelf presents no incentive for them to get busy with the new ones to sell.
> 
> I couldn't get Uriah Jacobus.
> 
> I did get St. Celestine.
> 
> These were both about a month ago. I can also contact a store I know who ordered more SoB stuff some of which he said he didn't get in to figure out more. That's all I had though.


Jacobus has been out of stock for a while. I know I'd gotten an email when I last attempted to order him that he'd be in on the 30th of September but I haven't tried ordering him again just yet.


----------

