# The founding Grey Knights (new lore and spoilers)



## Brother Lucian

In the just released Pandorax theres new information about the founding members of the Grey Knights

Character Spoiler


Ephimetheus is a Grey Knight whom have laid in a sus-an coma on Pandorax, watching the Damnation Cache for Ten Thousand years, being 1 of the 8 founding Grey Knights. His original geneseed removed and replaced with material drawn from the Emperor's own biology that granted him prodigous psychic power. And its strongly hinted during the novel, that he was originally of the Dark Angels, and heavilly implied to being one of the Fallen Angels. A potent psyker, his abilities cited as off the scale.



Story spoiler


It turns out that Epimetheus is the true reason for Abbadon's presence on the world, and he finally corners him and quizzes him to his identity, asking if he was the ultramarine, but no, and also confirming he didnt belong to any of the traitor legions, and declaring he definitely wasnt his erstvile brother as he had watched him die. (Though one can argue if Abby was refering to his currently known battle with Loken in galaxy of flames, or a future rematch at the siege of terra) But eventually claiming he was a brother of 10 that would become a brother of 8, and that Azrael and his whelps would tear the planet apart if they knew whom he were. The hint for his origin as a Dark Angel being reinforced at an earlier encounter with Huron Blackheart, claiming he was a Da.. As well Epis severe reluctance to join up with the Imperial forces due to the major presence of the Dark Angels.

So it will be interesting to see if Malcador recruits a Dark Angel in one of the comming heresy stories, a Fallen Angel even.


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## Iraqiel

Sweet, that's a nice little pickup. It doesn't mean huge changes to things overall, but it's always nice to flesh out the Grey Knight story a bit. Especially if it leads to the question being asked as to whether the other seven founding members are similarly disposed protecting critically important areas...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Brother Lucian said:


> His original geneseed removed and replaced with material drawn from the Emperor's own biology that granted him prodigous psychic power.


This paves the way for non-psykers (Loken being the obvious example) to become founding members, I guess.


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## Brother Lucian

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This paves the way for non-psykers (Loken being the obvious example) to become founding members, I guess.


Grimdark spoiler, dont read if you want to be suprised.


And Abbadon's plan? Epitmetheus gets a horrible fate at the hand of the despoiler, his potent genetic legacy harvested to be perverted as a tool in Abbadon's unending war to bring down the imperium. Epimetheus blinded, muted and delimbed and having a blank grafted onto his body.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

The storyline also does an excellent job adding to the tragic and confused storyline of the DA. 

Having one of the Fallen Angels being selected by Malcador as a GK and actually elevated in power by the Emperor 
 Grimdark indeed.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Brother Lucian said:


> Grimdark spoiler, dont read if you want to be suprised.
> 
> 
> And Abbadon's plan? Epitmetheus gets a horrible fate at the hand of the despoiler, his potent genetic legacy harvested to be perverted as a tool in Abbadon's unending war to bring down the imperium. Epimetheus blinded, muted and delimbed and having a blank grafted onto his body.




Wow, I imagine Fabius is on speed dial to see if he can actually corrupt anyone with the Emperor's gene seed. On the other hand, it would be a hoot if the Despoiler is destroyed by a corrupted psyker who finds religion (pun intended) when implanted with the Emperor's own geneseed :laugh:


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## Brother Lucian

Considering what Fabius is up to in Black Tide, then we know he got plans, big plans. And -this- might just be the bits he is missing to fulfill it. And yes, Abbadon namedrops Fabius as part of his scheme during Pandorax, even if never appears.


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## piemelke

I have not read the book, but it seems abbadon is again getting what the wants the and the loyalist losing another strong asset, gets really boring, 
pretty curious about the rest of the book,
any updates on the asrael vs kharn thing ?


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## Brother Lucian

piemelke said:


> I have not read the book, but it seems abbadon is again getting what the wants the and the loyalist losing another strong asset, gets really boring,
> pretty curious about the rest of the book,
> any updates on the asrael vs kharn thing ?


the story


The Pandorax story is an imperial victory, but abbadon achieved his true objective. He did not care for this particular battle.


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## Lord of the Night

It gets worse when you read between the lines, not just the book but also the afterword, and it becomes obvious just _who_ Epimetheus actually is.




Epimetheus is the only Dark Angel character that it would matter if we knew his identity. He isn't Cypher because Cypher is his own character, he isn't Luther because Luther is in the Rock and he isnt Nemiel because the Lion killed him. So there's only one left. Zahariel El'Zurias. That's who Epimetheus is. It's the afterword that clinches it, when Dunn thanks Mitchel Scanlon and Mike Lee for "what should be obvious by now." Creating Zahariel.





Brother Lucian said:


> (Though one can argue if Abby was refering to his currently known battle with Loken in _Galaxy in Flames_, or a future rematch at the Siege of Terra)


Actually you can't argue that. How would Abaddon even know that Loken was a part of that group if he believes Loken died at Istvaan? I think he met Loken again, and what followed is obvious.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian

Good point there, LotN, i realized that Abby had to know Loken as a part of the GK, and thusly surviving their first battle.

And yep, I thought Epi was Z too, a pretty sad end to a likeable character tho. :/


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## piemelke

mh indeed a logical conclusion, on the one hand great that they have some consistency this way on the other hand, I really like the chum, seeing him in the situation explained above is indeed very grimm and again shows that chaos is certainly in the lead in the time of ending setting.


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## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> It gets worse when you read between the lines, not just the book but also the afterword, and it becomes obvious just _who_ Epimetheus actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epimetheus is the only Dark Angel character that it would matter if we knew his identity. He isn't Cypher because Cypher is his own character, he isn't Luther because Luther is in the Rock and he isnt Nemiel because the Lion killed him. So there's only one left. Zahariel El'Zurias. That's who Epimetheus is. It's the afterword that clinches it, when Dunn thanks Mitchel Scanlon and Mike Lee for "what should be obvious by now." Creating Zahariel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you can't argue that. How would Abaddon even know that Loken was a part of that group if he believes Loken died at Istvaan? I think he met Loken again, and what followed is obvious.
> 
> 
> LotN


Holy shit! That's a huge thing! Well then we know what happened to him at least! Also, isn't implied they came looking for something on Caliban in one of the later Garro-stories?


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## Angel of Blood

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually you can't argue that. How would Abaddon even know that Loken was a part of that group if he believes Loken died at Istvaan? I think he met Loken again, and what followed is obvious.


Hmmm, I hope not. I imagine Abaddon is bound to find out at some point that Loken is still alive, and be suitably shocked, as will Aximand when I wager Loken kills him. But I don't really want to see a rematch between the two, if the result is just Loken losing again and being killed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm, I hope not. I imagine Abaddon is bound to find out at some point that Loken is still alive, and be suitably shocked, as will Aximand when I wager Loken kills him. But I don't really want to see a rematch between the two, if the result is just Loken losing again and being killed.


All this does is remind me how much of a shite decision it was to have Loken survive Isstvan III. :headbutt:


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## locustgate

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Loken survive Isstvan III.


I think letting any loyalist on the planet live is terrible it make the massacre seem less...terrible and less like a massacre.


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## shaantitus

It was still a massacre, just more selective.


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## piemelke

I completely agree that "walker" Loken was a crap idea,
did Abaddon take him with him or leave him (not Loken)?


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## Brother Lucian

piemelke said:


> I completely agree that "walker" Loken was a crap idea,
> did Abaddon take him with him or leave him (not Loken)?


Yes to your question, he did. He is screwed.


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## Deadeye776

I think the tragedy of having Loken lose everything he's ever loved, honored, and cared for as well as to be betrayed by his father and his brothers is a tragedy. The true tragedy however is the fact that living through it is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. At least if he had died (and had his soul destroyed by daemons in the warp like everyone else) he would know the peace of oblivion. However, he will have to live with only his new chapter and their brothers as well as have the shame of, unlike the others from traitor legions, having his father being the leader of the Heresy.


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## Thyr

Deadeye776 said:


> I think the tragedy of having Loken lose everything he's ever loved, honored, and cared for as well as to be betrayed by his father and his brothers is a tragedy. The true tragedy however is the fact that living through it is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. At least if he had died (and had his soul destroyed by daemons in the warp like everyone else) he would know the peace of oblivion. However, he will have to live with only his new chapter and their brothers as well as have the shame of, unlike the others from traitor legions, having his father being the leader of the Heresy.


This is exactly how I feel about it. To me Loken surviving is much more tragic than him having died.


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## oiad

He's a strong-minded lad. *If* he does indeed survive long enough to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster and drop his old heritage to adopt their legacy then I'm sure he'll have as good a reason as any to overcome any remaining 'shame'.


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## emporershand89

Thyr said:


> This is exactly how I feel about it. To me Loken surviving is much more tragic than him having died.


This is true sadly. However I feel that if he has the heart of burning vengeance(Provided the Writers give him thus) he will find a way to bring Honor back to his Brothers. For a short, and indeed very short, time Sarpeon of the Soul Drinker's managed to bring Honor back to his stricken Chapter that was plagued by mutation. Perhaps he can too.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

Thyr said:


> This is exactly how I feel about it. To me Loken surviving is much more tragic than him having died.


I agree with you, Loken is "Cursed". What makes it even worse is that he is /still/ alive in 40k. The Undying amongst the dead. He just can't catch a break. The moment he joined the Mournival, he was doomed.


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## Brother Lucian

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I agree with you, Loken is "Cursed". What makes it even worse is that he is /still/ alive in 40k. The Undying amongst the dead. He just can't catch a break. The moment he joined the Mournival, he was doomed.


I think you mixed up something there. We have no confirmation of Loken's fate, except for Abbadon claiming he saw his brother die.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

Brother Lucian said:


> I think you mixed up something there. We have no confirmation of Loken's fate, except for Abbadon claiming he saw his brother die.


Yeh, we have no confirmation but I want to be on the record as saying it is so.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

So, did Abaddon take Epimetheus with him? 

If so it seems that Epimetheus is the "psyker of prodigious strength" that Abaddon turns over to Fulgrim to become the avatar of Slaanesh...


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## Brother Lucian

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So, did Abaddon take Epimetheus with him?
> 
> If so it seems that Epimetheus is the "psyker of prodigious strength" that Abaddon turns over to Fulgrim to become the avatar of Slaanesh...


He did indeed. And now what is this bit about an Avatar for Slaanesh?


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## piemelke

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If so it seems that Epimetheus is the "psyker of prodigious strength" that Abaddon turns over to Fulgrim to become the avatar of Slaanesh...
> __________________


I sincerely hope this is not the case, and Epimetheus can be freed or something, it just gets boring, chaos takes second largest gene stock, chaos takes blackstone fortress, chaos turns one of the founding GK, chaos kills Eldrad, chaos... blablabla and the IOM/Eldar are just sitting there, sucking it all up, pansies


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Brother Lucian said:


> He did indeed. And now what is this bit about an Avatar for Slaanesh?


The events of _Pandorax_ are also covered in _Codex: Black Legion_:

"...Before the portal closed, however, Abaddon took with him a psyker, rumoured to be of prodigious strength and the bearer of a unique gift that would aid the Warmaster in his forthcoming Black Crusade."

"From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god."

It's not exactly conclusive, but if Epimetheus was the psyker that is being referred to then it opens up some interesting avenues. 




piemelke said:


> I sincerely hope this is not the case, and Epimetheus can be freed or something, it just gets boring, chaos takes second largest gene stock, chaos takes blackstone fortress, chaos turns one of the founding GK, chaos kills Eldrad, chaos... blablabla and the IOM/Eldar are just sitting there, sucking it all up, pansies


"The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch."


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## Primarch Tolu

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The events of _Pandorax_ are also covered in _Codex: Black Legion_:
> 
> "...Before the portal closed, however, Abaddon took with him a psyker, rumoured to be of prodigious strength and the bearer of a unique gift that would aid the Warmaster in his forthcoming Black Crusade."
> 
> "From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god."
> 
> It's not exactly conclusive, but if Epimetheus was the psyker that is being referred to then it opens up some interesting avenues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch."*


Yeah, I'm starting to realise this as well which is really disappointing.

Constantly reading stories of evil triumphing over good (particularly the way the BL do it)is not only kind of depressing it a little perverse IMO.

Not sure how long I can continue reading this stuff, I love the potential of the 40K universe for grand story telling but the constant grim dark and "bolter porn" novels are getting boring.

I liked Pandorax, but thought the ending sucked. It was a typical BL horrific end to a pretty good character.


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## Brother Lucian

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The events of _Pandorax_ are also covered in _Codex: Black Legion_:
> 
> "...Before the portal closed, however, Abaddon took with him a psyker, rumoured to be of prodigious strength and the bearer of a unique gift that would aid the Warmaster in his forthcoming Black Crusade."
> 
> "From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god."
> 
> It's not exactly conclusive, but if Epimetheus was the psyker that is being referred to then it opens up some interesting avenues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch."



Hrm, interesting. But will probably end unresolved, due to the frozen timeline for the 13th Black Crusade.

And yes, hope died long ago with the Emperor.


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## piemelke

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch."


indeed, you correctly state "humanity", for me that is on both sides of the fence, not just one, if you remember the conversation Talos had with Abaddon in soul hunter, that was very refreshing for me, from that discussion it seemed on both sides of the fence humanity is losing the fight, this is not the perception I have as of late, it seems there is an overcompensation for the failbaddon perception.
I admit, I am a little biased towards the IOM, but not enough to not appreciate Chaos, I really enjoy chaos characters such as Talos, Ahriman,Lucius, Xarl..., and the more cunning chaos strategies, e.g. the crimson path and the astropath killing by Talos, or the gene seed thing by the IW, immense blow to the IOM.
The problem I have is that there is no balance on the IOM. I would like to see some more interesting initiatives from the IOM side towards chaos, not just sent the GK and the IG. 
I have the feeling that the author's with most imagination on this behalf are mainly writing 30K or chaos oriented, the most obvious example of which is ADB.

I do mind the IOM is going down, but they should go down kicking at least some arse, now it seems there is hardly any challenge for the opponents of the IOM,


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## Karthak

Primarch Tolu said:


> Yeah, I'm starting to realise this as well which is really disappointing.
> 
> Constantly reading stories of evil triumphing over good (particularly the way the BL do it)is not only kind of depressing it a little perverse IMO.
> 
> Not sure how long I can continue reading this stuff, I love the potential of the 40K universe for grand story telling but the constant grim dark and "bolter porn" novels are getting boring.
> 
> I liked Pandorax, but thought the ending sucked. It was a typical BL horrific end to a pretty good character.


I agree with this *so damn much*.

That is why the Tau are my favorite faction. Screw this "everything just gets worse and worse" stuff. Without hope of a better tomorrow, what's even the point?


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## MEQinc

Primarch Tolu said:


> Yeah, I'm starting to realise this as well which is really disappointing.


You're only just starting to realize that "Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods." is not the tagline to a hopeful story of success and goodness? 40k has never tried to hide its darkness, it wears it very proudly, I don't know how you could've been expecting anything else.



piemelke said:


> indeed, you correctly state "humanity", for me that is on both sides of the fence, not just one, if you remember the conversation Talos had with Abaddon in soul hunter, that was very refreshing for me, from that discussion it seemed on both sides of the fence humanity is losing the fight, this is not the perception I have as of late, it seems there is an overcompensation for the failbaddon perception.


There is no humanity on the other side of the fence. Abaddon isn't human and his victories, and those of Chaos and in general, are just as much defeats for humanity as the military losses the Imperium suffers, if not more so.



> The problem I have is that there is no balance on the IOM. I would like to see some more interesting initiatives from the IOM side towards chaos, not just sent the GK and the IG.


Then look at the Gaunts Ghosts or Macharius novels. Cain also regularly triumphs over the forces of evil. Further most Space Marine novels end with them winning the battle, even if Abaddon still manages to advance his ultimate goal. The problem your having is that M999.41 is the eve of the 13th Black Crusade and is therefore the Imperium's darkest hour, they can't be winning in their darkest hour.



Karthak said:


> That is why the Tau are my favorite faction. Screw this "everything just gets worse and worse" stuff.


You haven't been reading the most recent Tau fluff have you  The more exposure the Tau get to the rest of the galaxy the darker they become. Because that's what 40k is. Its dark and its grim and its ultimately hopeless. Its not the bright shining promose of Star Trek, that's why i love it. That's what makes the IoM heroic, their only redeeming feature in my mind, their completely suicidal refusal to give up, even though they recognize how ultimately useless it all is.


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## Words_of_Truth

The game is meant to be fun however. I dunno things like this do depress me, I don't think there should be cut and dry victories and losses in 40k. 

The IOM is stagnant and the story will never progress to the point it's wiped out otherwise there's no game, so victories at the cost of something are good, cut and paste "this guy is epic, he did this and did this massively important thing without repercussions" is kind of poor writing to me. 

I think it was also a very bad idea to put a character from the HH into the book when the HH itself hasn't made clear whose his allegiances are to yet.

It's stuff like this and Alpha Legion infiltrating an entire chapter via the simple use of psychic graffiti that's kind of crappy. I mean when ever you see good space marines do anything it's at the sake of an entire company, losing a very important individual, sacrificing themselves, which is good (although you do get the ocassional "Blood Angels wtfpawned these dudes etc..) but Chaos, Chaos never seems to suffer from this, especially the big characters. 

The most successful chaos figures that people like to read about such as Talos and Ahriman are those who succeed but only at the cost of something important to them. Abaddon being made to look like the big mofo all of a sudden due to literally doing what he achieves without a problem, doesn't make him interesting for me, it does the opposite. It turns me off want to know more about him.


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## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The events of _Pandorax_ are also covered in _Codex: Black Legion_:
> 
> "...Before the portal closed, however, Abaddon took with him a psyker, rumoured to be of prodigious strength and the bearer of a unique gift that would aid the Warmaster in his forthcoming Black Crusade."
> 
> "From Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children, the Despoiler was gifted with the favour of Slaanesh in exchange for the Pythosian psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Fulgrim's god."
> 
> It's not exactly conclusive, but if Epimetheus was the psyker that is being referred to then it opens up some interesting avenues.
> 
> "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch."


When does this book take place?


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## Phoebus

A little less than four decades prior to the launch of the Thirteenth Black Crusade.


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## Reaper45

Karthak said:


> I agree with this *so damn much*.
> 
> That is why the Tau are my favorite faction. Screw this "everything just gets worse and worse" stuff. Without hope of a better tomorrow, what's even the point?


So you didn't read the farsight fluff then?

It's fairly clear that the ethereal's have another purpose in mind for the tau.


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## piemelke

MEQinc said:


> There is no humanity on the other side of the fence. Abaddon isn't human and his victories, and those of Chaos and in general, are just as much defeats for humanity as the military losses the Imperium suffers, if not more so.


Well I regard all chaos worshiping and following humans/astartes as humanity or at least its legacy, being on the other side of the fence, a future for mankind under the yoke of chaos (I am not sure but this is prob what abaddon wants for mankind) is a fair possibility for mankind, I liked the idea that the other side of the fence is equally fckd. It is not because Abaddon is non-human anymore that all chaos worshippers have no human affiliation anymore, a lot of NL for example are very close to the original astartes template, 



MEQinc said:


> Then look at the Gaunts Ghosts or Macharius novels. Cain also regularly triumphs over the forces of evil. Further most Space Marine novels end with them winning the battle, even if Abaddon still manages to advance his ultimate goal.


I have not read those books to be honest, and the IOM indeed triumphs often wins but often a pireas victory where again and again they lose ground. Give me an example of a IOM victory with the same gravity as what honsou did with the gene-seed storage, Talos did with the Astropaths, Honsou at ultramer, Abaddon with the GK, the only I can think of now are the destruction of the dies irea (or somethin like that), or Alaric, the former I do not regard nearly as significant, the later not so sure how to position Ben his GK nowadays,



MEQinc said:


> The problem your having is that M999.41 is the eve of the 13th Black Crusade and is therefore the Imperium's darkest hour, they can't be winning in their darkest hour.


, Again, I do not mind the IOM is going down, it is like seeing a boxing match, I just want to see a cool fight, not what is suggested in the recent lore, I want it to be undecided until the 10 th round.


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## Reaper45

piemelke said:


> Well I regard all chaos worshiping and following humans/astartes as humanity or at least its legacy, being on the other side of the fence, a future for mankind under the yoke of chaos (I am not sure but this is prob what abaddon wants for mankind) is a fair possibility for mankind, I liked the idea that the other side of the fence is equally fckd. It is not because Abaddon is non-human anymore that all chaos worshippers have no human affiliation anymore, a lot of NL for example are very close to the original astartes template,
> 
> 
> I have not read those books to be honest, and the IOM indeed triumphs often wins but often a pireas victory where again and again they lose ground. Give me an example of a IOM victory with the same gravity as what honsou did with the gene-seed storage, Talos did with the Astropaths, Honsou at ultramer, Abaddon with the GK, the only I can think of now are the destruction of the dies irea (or somethin like that), or Alaric, the former I do not regard nearly as significant, the later not so sure how to position Ben his GK nowadays,
> 
> , Again, I do not mind the IOM is going down, it is like seeing a boxing match, I just want to see a cool fight, not what is suggested in the recent lore, I want it to be undecided until the 10 th round.


Have you read the ultramarine series? That goes along with the iron warrior series?

Two ultramarines destroy honsou's fortress, wipe out most of what he was building and is pretty much stated that honsou loses a massive portion of his army.

Should I also go into detail about the banishing of angron, the loss of that warp device in the cain series or a host of other things?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

piemelke said:


> , Again, I do not mind the IOM is going down, it is like seeing a boxing match, I just want to see a cool fight, not what is suggested in the recent lore, I want it to be undecided until the 10 th round.


Chaos struck the first blow over 10,000 years ago! The Imperium, against all the odds, has endured for 10,000 years! If that doesn't correlate to lasting 10 rounds in your boxing analogy I don't know what would.


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## piemelke

Reaper45 said:


> Have you read the ultramarine series? That goes along with the iron warrior series?
> 
> Two ultramarines destroy honsou's fortress, wipe out most of what he was building and is pretty much stated that honsou loses a massive portion of his army.
> 
> Should I also go into detail about the banishing of angron, the loss of that warp device in the cain series or a host of other things?


I red those books and to be honest the IW did it mainly to themselves at least the warsmiths (re-introduced in angel exterminatus) did, I would not overestimate the contribution of Uriel and his posse.
Another example is the BL fight in the first ADB NL books, there also an example of how chaos inflicted a defeat upon themselves, 

The banishing of Angron (you forget Magnus and the candle in the eye accident), I think you pass the point that there are still former primarchs active on the chaos side (Angron, Magnus and Mortarion (small reference in Pandorax), do not know about Alpharius and Omegon), taking the fight to the IOM, the last time a loyalist primarch did this was ...Dorn and he got blown to bits.
I can't recall how many GK got killed in the banishing, but a significant amount

@ COTE: I do not pressume to have the same knowledge over the entire 30k- 40k as you have, but absorbing punches would be the most appropriate description,


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## Reaper45

piemelke said:


> I red those books and to be honest the IW did it mainly to themselves at least the warsmiths (re-introduced in angel exterminatus) did, I would not overestimate the contribution of Uriel and his posse.
> Another example is the BL fight in the first ADB NL books, there also an example of how chaos inflicted a defeat upon themselves,
> 
> The banishing of Angron (you forget Magnus and the candle in the eye accident), I think you pass the point that there are still former primarchs active on the chaos side (Angron, Magnus and Mortarion (small reference in Pandorax), do not know about Alpharius and Omegon), taking the fight to the IOM, the last time a loyalist primarch did this was ...Dorn and he got blown to bits.
> I can't recall how many GK got killed in the banishing, but a significant amount
> 
> @ COTE: I do pressume to have the same knowledge over the entire 30k- 40k as you have, but absorbing punches would be the most appropriate description,


Keep in mind that only magnus and angron were the only ones to actively do things.
Roughly 95 grey knights were killed to banish angron. Keep in mind that they could only get 100 at such a short notice. If they would have had more things would have been different.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

Call me the optimist but I see a light at the end of the Grimdark tunnel. Things always seem the darkest before the dawn after all. From the start of the game, when I first laid eyes on the cover of Rogue Trader, I saw a desperate stand were at least one marine lived to tell the tale. Yeh, is was sad that most would die but survival can be a victory. Take Isstvan III. Most I think would say that Horus won this war. I think it was a Loyalist victory, because I think Horus needed to kill all of the loyalists to win. The fact that the Loyalists drug the war out for as long as they did was good enough but to have survivors that make it back to Terra to tell the story and give up inter legion secrets is just icing. To take this topic back to the OP I think the Grey Knights are the spark that could light the new dawn. But that's probably just me being a Loken, Fan boy, optimist.


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## Reaper45

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Call me the optimist but I see a light at the end of the Grimdark tunnel. Things always seem the darkest before the dawn after all. From the start of the game, when I first laid eyes on the cover of Rogue Trader, I saw a desperate stand were at least one marine lived to tell the tale. Yeh, is was sad that most would die but survival can be a victory. Take Isstvan III. Most I think would say that Horus won this war. I think it was a Loyalist victory, because I think Horus needed to kill all of the loyalists to win. The fact that the Loyalists drug the war out for as long as they did was good enough but to have survivors that make it back to Terra to tell the story and give up inter legion secrets is just icing. To take this topic back to the OP I think the Grey Knights are the spark that could light the new dawn. But that's probably just me being a Loken, Fan boy, optimist.


For who? The billions they kill just to hide their existence and the existence of daemons? 

They aren't the white knights in shining armor. They are knights treading a fine line. Between evil and good.


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## Demious

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually you can't argue that. How would Abaddon even know that Loken was a part of that group if he believes Loken died at Istvaan? I think he met Loken again, and what followed is obvious.


Or maybe he wasn't referring to Loken but another Luna Wolf who also went on to become a member of the Grey Knights.


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## Lux

Yes...Horus


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## Brother Lucian

Lux said:


> Yes...Horus


Well Iacton Quruze is a known member of the Knights errant. And theres Severian from the Outcast Dead whom also where nabbed by them.


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## Lux

Yes however in particular I am stating that one of the most prominent of the founding grey knights members was Horus.


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## Brother Lucian

Lux said:


> Yes however in particular I am stating that one of the most prominent of the founding grey knights members was Horus.


Surely you mean Little Horus Aximand? And wheres the source for it?


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## Lost&Damned

Not sure if I or some-other has written this previously, but im pretty sure Loken and Janus (first supreme grandmaster) are the same person, Janus was two faced god, right?
and Loken has split personalities, i think it makes sense.
inb4 comparing me to Lux


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## Brother Lucian

Lost&Damned said:


> Not sure if I or some-other has written this previously, but im pretty sure Loken and Janus (first supreme grandmaster) are the same person, Janus was two faced god, right?
> and Loken has split personalities, i think it makes sense.
> inb4 comparing me to Lux


People have thought its him, as it seems the first Grey Knights are changing their name.


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## Lux

Brother Lucian said:


> Surely you mean Little Horus Aximand? And wheres the source for it?


I mean Horus Lupercal, at the climax of the duel between the Emperor and Horus a most profound event occured. Horus's soul had been utterly eradicated, the Emperor then imparted a portion of his own "power" into Horus. Horus then gained a "new" "soul", it was from there that Horus became one of the founding members of the Grey Knights as it was Horus's genetic template that created the Grey Knights. The source is from black library novels, books, and gamesworkshop codex's as well as forgeworld books.


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## Brother Lucian

Lux said:


> I mean Horus Lupercal, at the climax of the duel between the Emperor and Horus a most profound event occured. Horus's soul had been utterly eradicated, the Emperor then imparted a portion of his own "power" into Horus. Horus then gained a "new" "soul", it was from there that Horus became one of the founding members of the Grey Knights as it was Horus's genetic template that created the Grey Knights. The source is from black library novels, books, and gamesworkshop codex's as well as forgeworld books.


Ok, that is a wee bit far fetched. Sorry to say it, but completely unfounded, Lux.


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## Lux

Brother Lucian said:


> Ok, that is a wee bit far fetched. Sorry to say it, but completely unfounded, Lux.


Not unfounded at all Brutha Luscious


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## Brother Lucian

Lux said:


> Not unfounded at all Brutha Lucius


Id certainly love to see where you found that kind of fanon.


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## Lux

Brutha Luscious said:


> Id certainly love to see where you found that kind of fanon.


I am not a fan of fanon, in fact I despise fanon and thus I only go by the legitimate documentation provided by an official imperial distributor.


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## Brother Lucian

Lux said:


> I am not a fan of fanon, in fact I despise fanon and thus I only go by the legitimate documentation provided by an official imperial distributor.


You have to come up with a LOT more proof than just obscure references. Its long been established that Horus Lupercal's soul was eradicated, and the Black Legion took his corpse. Worshipped it until Fabius made off with it. So Abby got pouty, went and destroyed it and all the mini-me's of Horus he found. End of story.


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