# New nids unit summary



## gawbo005 (Jul 19, 2008)

After going through the new codex I am noticing a lot of pros and cons. But overall I love the new codex I wanted to give a summary of what I think the units are like. But Im a so so skilled player so many of you will spot thing I miss so feel free to edit. 

First point I want to make is the increased cost for the tyrant and fexes. I was very angry to see how expensive they are but with much lowered point cost on a lot of other units like gaunts and gargoyles it seems to balance itself out a bit in the larger picture. This will allow more people to still field MC armies but it also allows swarm armies to be much more of an option since we can field more easily.

Shadow of the warp will tear psyker units apart. I look foward to taking on lash princes and see how it goes.

So here is my little summary. feel free to insult my logic

Hive Tyrant

This unit can be very strong on the initial assault with bonesword and talons, plus if you use his template weapons beforehand you can soften up the enemy beforehand. With the new bonesword and lash whip buffs it can take on elite units or MC with ease. the psychic powers he has are very strong and the leech ability and the regen biomorph he gained will help his survivability more. you can give it 12 str 6 shots with reroll misses with the deviorors, its a nerf compared to the old version but it is still a very strong combo. 

If you want to make him an assault unit I would recommend having him keep the bonesword and lash whip but also giving him thorax swarm of you choosing, old adversary, armor shell, and toxic miasma. That way he can take on weaker swarm units a little easier and elite units with not to much difficulty. 


Swarmlord.

not much needed to saw about this guy other then HOLY CRAP WHAT A MELEE NIGHTMARE (just expensive). From the looks of it and from reading Katie Drakes odds bs abbadon he will hurt all he approach. the downside to him is he can be easly kited and concentrated fire can slowly take him down fast enough. also because of his cost only viaible in high point games.

Tervigon

or the mamafex as I nicknamed it. Good MC and it can be taken as a troop choice which helps the force organization chart. The buffs he can give his spawned termagaunts can make them very powerful melee units as well as decent ranged units. Using catalyst on a unit of gaunts will also help their approach. It is one of the most powerful gaunt support units in the codex and I plan to have a list or two that use him. A downside to the gaunt production is it can be easy to roll doubles on the 3d6 roll which can lead to a sad unit if you roll low because its potential is corrilated with how many gaunts it can produce. 

Tyranid Prime

The answer to warriors being no longer an HQ. this unit is the only cheep HQ the nids have and will be used a lot in low point games. the buff he can give to a warrior squad though will greatly help what is usually the warriors legendary inaccuracy to make them decent ranged units. Not to many negatives to this unit because it can fill both ranged and melee roles very well.

Parasote of Mortrex

this unit can ruin an army that has low toughness because he can spawn so many rippers. He has wings so he can quickly move to the enemy and spawn rippers to help with subsequent assaults. Making outflankers potentially take a ripper base can hurt deployment by holding down a unit for at least one turn. Downside to him is he spawns rippers. Granted they are a little better in this game but for his cost and what he does I think there are other options for the points.

Hive guard brood.

I can imagine seeing a lot of these units being fielded by a lot of tyranid players. They have the strength and toughness of a tyrant guard and they have 2 extremely strong S8 shot. for 150 points you can field three of them and get 6 shots. enough to ruin any squads day.

Lictors

This unit finally got a good point cut and their abilities mostly stayed the same or got better. they lost the ability to assault as soon as they deep strike but they gained flesh hooks which still gives them the ability to snipe artillery units. Removing the need to be near cover to deep strike also helps. the Pheromone trail still helps with reserve units and this will help to more accuratly deep strike snot pods

Deathleaper

Ahh this guy will be fun to play with. he is a strong lictor that is very good at getting rending attacks. Since he can be hard to shoot at times he will have a better chance to get into close combat. I think we will be seeing him more then once in a game. 

Venomthrope Brood.

This unit is a probably the second strongest support unit after the tervigon because he is able to give units a 5+ cover save. this will greatly improve the chances of getting a CC swarm into melee. He is also not a bad melee unit himself. the downside to this model is he is kinda easy to kill with his 5+ armor save. I cant see him surviving to many rounds in CC. 

Zoanthropes

FINALLY this guy is a good anti tank. I was not sure about his ability until I saw that the str 10 shot was also a lance (making it the practically the STRONGEST anti tank weapon in the game). with the snot pod he can deep strike into enemy area and snipe tanks with no problem since it glances on a 2 pens on 3+. 

Doom of Malan'tai

I plan on using this guy on several lists for several reasons. First for what he can do 90 points seems like a good investment. he can heal himself at a very fast rate and his large pie plate he can drop the shot on himself if the situation calls for it provided he does not have 8+ wounds. two things can happen with this guy. Either you get his wound count really high and cause 
bloody harm to the enemy or the enemy gets a lucky krak missile shot and his reign of terror never starts. Either way I think he will make up his points very fast and is worth taking.

Pyrovore

This is a heavy flamer template unit that can deep strike. It has potential to cause a lot of harm to the enemy and the point costs are not to bad. Overall I am not impressed with this unit. I can see where it is useful but I can think of better used for the points.

Ymgarl Genestealers

This is a very versatile CC unit with its alter form ability allowing it to change its stats to suit the needs of the assault. and the ability to ambush units and assaulting the turn they appear can ruin a sniper squad in cover any day. im just picturing a T5 unit with 4+ save charging into a squad of harlequins, i think it would be a pretty good match up. Downside is they are pretty pricey. 

Tyranid Warrior. 

These guys will be VERY fun to play with in this edition. They are very versatile to suit the needs of the army for ranged attacks and melee power. They got three wounds in this new codex so they will be very tough to take down. You can also change the weapons for all the units so it will allow even wound allocation. Sadly the loss of EW makes instant death a large counter for this squad. They do get pretty pricey so it can be easy to see where some points can be spent elsewhere. But with synapse being very important in this version they are a good addition.

Genestealers

Ahh the bread and butter of my old army. Thankfully they are still nearly as powerful as they used to be and with the broodlord upgrade I think I finally will get use it. They can still get the rerolls to hit by adding scything tallions but I have to experiment to see if this is a useful upgrade since its only on 1s now. These guys are still very nice units and I plan to field a lot of them. 

Termagaunt

ahh 5 point gaunts. I am dusting off all of my little bugs as we speak. Since there was a general nerf of most of the ranged weapons for nids in this edition the guns are still fairly useful in the hands of gaunts. with their low cost and their cost effective weapons We can expect to see of lot of these guys getting fielded. Im doing the math and for 100 points you can get 20 of these critters. The whole unit will require a lot of focused fire and if you also have a mamafex behind them to buff them they can be very strong and very tough to kill.
The expensive route to take with these guys is adding devourer for an extra 5 points doubling their value. the only way I would play this route is with catylist. but even if you loose half of a full squad 15 of these guys close to the enemy thats 45 str 4 shots. with FnP their odds of reaching the enemy with higher numbers is better. 

Hormagaunts

The other part of the great swarm. With their now lower point cost and their greater chance to run faster with bounding leap. They have two upgrades that can make them even more useful in melee depending on the type of player you are. Adrenal glands give the unit furious charge putting them on par with orc boys in their CC ability and the toxin sacks allow the hormies to take on higher toughness units by giving them 4+ poison attacks. full squad of 30 is 180 points. 240 with one of the upgrades. 

their two base attacks gives a full squad around 60 attacks 90 on a charge.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Great summary there mate. Your pretty much echoing what I'm thinking, in that lots of critters will now be in Tyranid armies rather than a small number of big gribblies.


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## gawbo005 (Jul 19, 2008)

i am changing what I wrote about the hive tyrant. After examining a little further I have a different idea about him


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## gawbo005 (Jul 19, 2008)

ok now im not sleepy here is the rest of my summery. 

Tyranid Shrikes

for an extra 5 points a model the tyranid wings. Their melee power now with the long move range makes this unit a must take for melee warriors. I plan to use these guys for every melee warrior i make. Plus this would allow me to keep synapse closer to my faster units. 

Raveners

They are still very fast, they can deep strike and they got 4 attacks which you can reroll because they have two scything talons. They are cheep at 30 points a model and they have three wounds so unless they have instant death weapons they have better chances of getting to the enemy. 

I plan to try a squad of of three one with a spinefist and the other with a devourer for 100 points. This way I can distribute wounds easily giving them an even better chance to reach the enemy.

Gargoyles

Another unit that we will be seeing a lot more. Their point cost makes them easy to run full squads of 30 and their blinding venom makes it good in melee. their upgrades are cheep and this would allow them to either get furious charge or a poisoned attack. Since they dont really any ranged options this is a melee unit. I am going to run a good sized squad of these and give them furious charge to make the rest of their hits land better.

Carnifex

I am very disappointed in these guys in this codex. Their point cost has nearly doubled and their biomorphs have not changed all that much. Running nidzilla with a lot of these guys is a thing of the past. I am not to disappointed about not getting a 2+ armor save option since I never really used it anyway. 

There are still a lot of good things about the fexes. They can get 12 str 6 shots with TL devourers which still makes them an effective gun platform. Now a big boost they received is their ability to deep strike with the snot pod. 

Crushing claws becomes much more of an option in this edition. Since scything talons dont add attacks anymore the claws will always be a benefit. 

Old one eye

Fex on steroids. This guy is going to be very tough to kill with the ability to regenerate and the number of attacks be can get can be staggering, he has a maxinum potential to get 16 str 10 attacks attacks. I have not had to much of a chance to playtest this guy but he looks like he will be a terror if you want to invest all the points. 

Biovore

Now that spore mines no longer cause victory points this may be a unit to consider playing on occasion. its a str 4 large blast barrage. with three in the squad they can cover a lot of ground. their range is helpful to keep them from getting shot and their mines can be used even if they miss. they are unreliable to get the mines to get where you want them but it can still cause a lot of pain to others. worth trying these guys. 

trygon

This guy is a lot of fun. He has a lot of wounds and the trygon prime get a decent 18" gun that fires 12 str 5 shots as well as becomming a synapse creatre. also his burrow allows other units to come in right where you need em. 

He is very strong in melee and is the only monstrous creature that I know of that also has fleet. If you give him furious charge he will probably be able to strike first and the scything talons let him reroll. He will be seen quite often on the battlefield and definetly a fire magnet because of his power on the battlefield


Mawloc

one word for this unit USELESS. I dont like this guy at all. His melee power is horrible and the blast template is strong but he will die before he ever makes back his points. 

If i HAD to use him I would deploy him regularly NOT in reserve so on turn 1 he can burrow and then deep strike right away on turn 2. then I would have him burrow again to keep using the template

tyrannofex
He has a lot of ranged weapons making him a pretty decent ranged unit. He has a lot of plus sides to him. He has a lot of guns and can be given two template weapons which can be deadly to any squad. he can also take on infantry decently with fleshboarer hive. He is also the only other tyranid unit that has the 2+ armor save making him really difficult to kill.

The problems with this guy is he is very expensive making him not possible in small point games. He is also only effective in short range requiring him to get in close before he can do any damage. Any skilled player will kite this guy around making sure he never gets in range.


well thats all I got, please add to this everyone, I know I missed stuff so please let me know.


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Hey there, looking good. A couple of issues-

Hive Tyrants cannot take both a thorax swarm and armored shell.

Raveners must be equiped with the same thorax weapon in a brood.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

gawbo005 said:


> Hive Tyrant
> 
> This unit can be very strong on the initial assault with bonesword and talons, plus if you use his template weapons beforehand you can soften up the enemy beforehand. With the new bonesword and lash whip buffs it can take on elite units or MC with ease. the psychic powers he has are very strong and the leech ability and the regen biomorph he gained will help his survivability more. you can give it 12 str 6 shots with reroll misses with the deviorors, its a nerf compared to the old version but it is still a very strong combo.
> 
> ...





gawbo005 said:


> ok now im not sleepy here is the rest of my summery.
> 
> 
> Raveners
> ...


A solid reveiw, you did miss Rippers and the Harpy, but that doesn't matter 
Keep up the good work!


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## bakoren (Nov 16, 2009)

Rippers: They get stepped on, but they distract the guy

Harpy: The pigeon who poops death!

Just my opnion though.


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## gawbo005 (Jul 19, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Genestealers
> 
> 
> Toxin Sacs are a must on Genestealers, the re-roll to wounds mean more rends! Scything Talons is a personal choice, they are slightly more effective per point than buying extra Genestealers, but don't add the extra wounds. It really is a balanced choice whether to take the talons or not, and comes down to how your army plays and what exactly do you need the Genestealers to do.
> Keep up the good work!


toxin sacs dont let you reroll wounds they have you wound on a 4+, which most of the time thats what they will be wounding on anyway. A good upgrade for them would be adrenal glands, having S 5 on a charge will wound a MEQ on 3s


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

gawbo005 said:


> toxin sacs dont let you reroll wounds they have you wound on a 4+, which most of the time thats what they will be wounding on anyway. A good upgrade for them would be adrenal glands, having S 5 on a charge will wound a MEQ on 3s


Actually, they do; toxin sacs make your attacks poisoned, and poisond attacks let you re-roll failed to wound results if your strength is equal or greater than the targets toughness.

Between the two, the re-roll is generally a better choice because it ups the odds of success by a fair amount more than the boost to strength.


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## bakoren (Nov 16, 2009)

I take both, but I am Genestealer Heavy. They are my win con.


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## Traitor (Jul 29, 2008)

Genestealers are much better against MEQ with toxin sacs

10 Genestealers without TS: on the charge, 30 attacks, 20 hits, 20/6 rending wounds plus 20/3 non-rending wounds, of which 2/3 get saved leaving 20/6 rending plus 20/9 failed saves, totalling 50/9 unsaved wounds, or 5.555.... wounds

10 Genestealers with TS: on the charge, 30 attacks, 20 hits, 20/6 rending wounds plus 20/3 non-rending wounds plus 10 rerolls giving another 10/6 rending wounds plus 10/3 non rending wounds, so 10 saves taken and 10/3 failed, meaning a total of 25/3 unsaved wounds or 8.33333... 

So taking toxin sacs at an extra 3 points per model grants an extra 25/9 or 2.777... wounds

17/14 X 100 = 121% increase in cost
25/3 / 50/9 X 100 = 150% increase in unsaved wounds vs MEQ

Obviously you lose the benefit of an extra two wounds per 10 better genestealers, but with the amount of cover available and catalyst from Tervigons I think it's better to take toxin sacs. Not to mention that they will be improved almost 200% against MCs, since you basically reroll all non-rends if you need 6s to wound.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

gawbo005 said:


> Mawloc
> 
> one word for this unit USELESS. I dont like this guy at all. His melee power is horrible and the blast template is strong but he will die before he ever makes back his points.
> 
> If i HAD to use him I would deploy him regularly NOT in reserve so on turn 1 he can burrow and then deep strike right away on turn 2. then I would have him burrow again to keep using the template.


Hmm.... I have to say that your summary is right for the most part, but there is one useful part of a Mawlocs powers that you have to consider. The ability to move a unit, and if it can't move, to destroy it. Surround a LR with a unit of gaunts, deep striking units in mycotic spores/from trygon holes or whatever, and a lucky mawloc hit will destroy it and it's passengers, with no save of any kind, as the model can't be moved out of the way of the attack. It won't come up very often, but it could be a useful manoover. Better yet If a guard player surrounds his tanks with infantry to try to stop you assaulting them, the tank in the middle makes an easy target, using his own men to destroy the tank.

Even though it takes quite a bit of luck to get this to happen, the very thought of losing an important model will cause most enemy's to avoid putting their tanks in the middle of ruins/other impassable terrain bits, or other models, just incase, which would make it more difficult for them to get cover saves.

Also works for popping vehicles out of cover, or closer to your other units, so they can be shot at/assaulted, or shuffling over a unit so that they're in difficult/dangerous terrain. Hitting a vehicle dead on allows you to move it about 5" to the side, assuming you don't destroy it. 

Still, that ability makes them at least worth looking at, thought the trygon is just more nasty in most circumstances. Special abilities like the mawloc though cost alot, because, on occasion, they can do alot. It takes a lot of luck to actually use them, but the effect they would have on an enemy general might make up for that somewhat 

Plus, I wonder how this would work in terms of apocalypse and super-heavy tanks :shok:

Edit: note, this post assumes you can deepstrike onto models, so don't worry about that debate, we'll keep that in the other mawloc thread


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

maddermax said:


> ...Plus, I wonder how this would work in terms of apocalypse and super-heavy tanks :shok:


I played Apoc yesterday on a Tyranid team vs IG with Deathwing support. The Trygon owner in our team said, on this subject, that DSing on superheavies will mean trouble, so I suppose it misshaps or something similar if that happens:wink:


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> I played Apoc yesterday on a Tyranid team vs IG with Deathwing support. The Trygon owner in our team said, on this subject, that DSing on superheavies will mean trouble, so I suppose it misshaps or something similar if that happens:wink:


Trygons are different from Mawlocs, they have the same deepstriking rules as anyone else, so if a trygon ends up under a super heavy, it will have troubles. Now, if a Mawloc turns up underneath, then I know of nothing in the rules that would stop the superheavy being moved over as any other unit. If he was talking about a Mawloc (I realise that might be what you meant ), perhaps he meant "trouble for the other side", or "trouble when the opposing player sees what I've done to his baneblade and beats me around the head with a rulebook" :laugh:.

Yes, its a bit rich, so hopefully they do something to FAQ it (for appocalypse games at least). And while they're at it, they need to FAQ the hierophant, as it's now a gargantuan creature with a 3+ invulnerable save apparently...


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

White Dwarf mentioned something about new Tyranid Datasheets in Febuary, so hopefully that will fix it up


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

maddermax said:


> Trygons are different from Mawlocs, they have the same deepstriking rules as anyone else, so if a trygon ends up under a super heavy, it will have troubles. Now, if a Mawloc turns up underneath, then I know of nothing in the rules that would stop the superheavy being moved over as any other unit. If he was talking about a Mawloc (I realise that might be what you meant ), perhaps he meant "trouble for the other side", or "trouble when the opposing player sees what I've done to his baneblade and beats me around the head with a rulebook" :laugh:.
> 
> Yes, its a bit rich, so hopefully they do something to FAQ it (for appocalypse games at least). And while they're at it, they need to FAQ the hierophant, as it's now a gargantuan creature with a 3+ invulnerable save apparently...


No, we were talking about the Trygon (since our 3d member was asking "where, how, what" about it). Sad that the Mawloc might be broken beyond all kinds of bounds (baring one) until the FAQ...
I should probably point out that we used a "Subterrainian Brood" for the Trygon (and 3x3 raveners), this might have something to do with the detail of which rule that counts and which not. At least this forced the Imperial Line to open up a 6inch clear ground which looked very interesting to say the least 

The Hierophant has indeed a 2+ save and Warp Field. Combine that with T9 W10 and Reg and you get one immortal GC for a meagre 1250 pts. In the last codex the Warpfield gave the Hierophant the 2+save and a shitty IVsave but since the save is written down as 2+ in the statline this indeed becomes an Assault Terminator in Gargantuan Creature form now.
Its by far easier killing a Warlord Titan then this GC now....

Looking forward to those datasheets. All of them needs redoing one way or the other...


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## Pedro (Jan 29, 2010)

It is also worth noting explicitly that the Hive Guard does not need line of sight to shoot its weapon and that it does not grant a cover save unless the hit unit is inside area terrain. It is their unique ability and can screw you easily.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Traitor said:


> Genestealers are much better against MEQ with toxin sacs
> 
> 10 Genestealers without TS: on the charge, 30 attacks, 20 hits, 20/6 rending wounds plus 20/3 non-rending wounds, of which 2/3 get saved leaving 20/6 rending plus 20/9 failed saves, totalling 50/9 unsaved wounds, or 5.555.... wounds
> 
> ...


Little bit hard to understand your mathhammer when you use fractions. Better to stick with large common denominators.

24 Genestealers = 72 attacks on the charge
48 hit
8 rend + 16 wound
Re-roll 24 misses for 4 rend and 8 wound
Total of 12 rend and 24 wound
8 failed 3+ saves from the 24 wound
This makes 20 dead marines from 24 genestealers on the charge
Which means 5 dead marines for every 6 genestealers

So basically, you do NOT need the broodlord, and you dont want to be running more than 10 genestealers in a squad.

Running 9 genestealers in a squad will kill 7.5 marines on average on the charge, allowing them their 2.5 attacks back (or 5 if armed with 2x ccw). Next turn you will wipe them out, consolidate, and be able to have your turn and charge another unit.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> Little bit hard to understand your mathhammer when you use fractions. Better to stick with large common denominators.
> 
> 24 Genestealers = 72 attacks on the charge
> 48 hit
> ...


Fractions are more accurate and can be easily applied to any number of models charging. Also, fractions help when dealing with numbers that don't have common denominators.

Also, you have to remember casualties. Sure a 9 string unit will do exactly what you want _if they charge at full strength_. In order to charge, the Genestealers must be within at least 18". This will mean Space Marines will be able to hit you with Rapid Fire. 1 from Bolt pistol, 14 from bolters. That's 5 dead Genestealers right there.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Fractions are more accurate and can be easily applied to any number of models charging. Also, fractions help when dealing with numbers that don't have common denominators.
> 
> Also, you have to remember casualties. Sure a 9 string unit will do exactly what you want _if they charge at full strength_. In order to charge, the Genestealers must be within at least 18". This will mean Space Marines will be able to hit you with Rapid Fire. 1 from Bolt pistol, 14 from bolters. That's 5 dead Genestealers right there.


Firstly, how are fractions more accurate?
My calculations are 100% accurate.

Also, if you outflank the genestealers you should be able to charge something on the turn they come in, if you play it right.
If not, then you should have something as a bigger target priority for the opponent.
Move things up the middle of the board forcing your opponent to go wide, then outflank them.
Seriously, i have not had a single genestealer die to shooting before it got into close combat. If your genestealers are dying, then you need to re-think your tactics.

A squad of 10 genestealers with TS is perfect.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> Firstly, how are fractions more accurate?
> My calculations are 100% accurate.
> 
> Also, if you outflank the genestealers you should be able to charge something on the turn they come in, if you play it right.
> ...


In that case, yes you were 100%. Now do it with only 23 or 17 Genestealers and you'll see what I mean

Your not always going to have something within 13" (If you Fleet 1") of a Board edge. I'll admit it is uncommon, but it does happen.

You say that if I lose a Genestealer to shooting, I must have bad Tactics. Thats a pretty big call mate. If I take a few more Genestealers so that they can charge a second unit further in the board after they outflank, kill a unit and get shot at and still be strong enough to tear a second unit down, do I have poor Tactics? Hardly.

Then theres the case that outflanking isn't the _only_ way of using Genestealers. I often use a unit of Genestealers to move up behind my Gaunt Screen. They often get shot at, but have a 4+ cover save, so they only take a couple of casualties, yet they have a couple extra models, so that when my Gaunt screen is charged/destroyerd, I can charge straight into one of their more dangerous units and cit it down to size. The process involves some Genestealers dieing, so it is a bad Tactic? 

You say your opponent will have bigger target prioties. Now sure, you'll have big Montrous Creatures they will be shooting, buts that with high strength weapondry. What about their small arms? Genestealers are one of the juiciest targets for small arms. I've used Genestealers to great effect and my opponents gun for them alot. If you opponent doesn't shoot them, they must not be very scared of them. And I'm the one who needs to re-think my Tactics? I will admit Genestealers aren't target prioty number one, but if they come on and and threaten an opponents army, they will be shot at 9 times out of 10.

Also, you assume that if you go up the middle, the opponent will have to go wide. That doesn't always happen. Gunlines don't move for anybody. Other armies can stay in the middle too. If they focus their troops in the middle, and you put significant numbers in for outflanking, then should stand a good chance at holding back your main wave without straying too close to the board edges.

10-12 Genestealers is a great number, but only because it takes only 7 Genestealers to wipe out a Tactical squad in 2 turns and six will do it 4(which is still ending during your opponents turn).


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## bugsftw (Nov 18, 2009)

i really like genestealers in my army, i use one unit of 15 base and another unit of 15 with talons and adrenal glands, and i outflank with them and use the hive commander ability on the tyrant to bring in a unit of warriors with a strangler for synapse. the furious charge really helps if you're going after armor near the sides of the table, and destroys in the table quarter deployment.


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> Move things up the middle of the board forcing your opponent to go wide, then outflank them.
> Seriously, i have not had a single genestealer die to shooting before it got into close combat. If your genestealers are dying, then you need to re-think your tactics.





Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Also, you assume that if you go up the middle, the opponent will have to go wide. That doesn't always happen. Gunlines don't move for anybody. Other armies can stay in the middle too. If they focus their troops in the middle, and you put significant numbers in for outflanking, then should stand a good chance at holding back your main wave without straying too close to the board edges.


Skoll is right, most of my ork armies will charge straight down the middle, back at you. Leaving nothing on the edges, or the back line. forcing your outflanking units to run towards the middle too. Never take for granted that an army will do what you want it to.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

bugsftw said:


> i really like genestealers in my army, i use one unit of 15 base and another unit of 15 with talons and adrenal glands, and i outflank with them and use the hive commander ability on the tyrant to bring in a unit of warriors with a strangler for synapse. the furious charge really helps if you're going after armor near the sides of the table, and destroys in the table quarter deployment.


I'd still say go for Toxin Sacs over Adrenal Glands. Adrenal Gland wounds more against T3 and below, but gets less Rends. Against T4, Toxin Sacs get both more wounds and more Rends. Above T6, Toxin Sacs get more wounds.

Against most vehicles (ie, rear armour 10) Adrenal Gland simply lets you glance on a 5.

Also, you should be destroying the transport using other stuff first, you shouldn't be giving unit upgrades to solely compensate for the rest of the army failing


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## bugsftw (Nov 18, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I'd still say go for Toxin Sacs over Adrenal Glands. Adrenal Gland wounds more against T3 and below, but gets less Rends. Against T4, Toxin Sacs get both more wounds and more Rends. Above T6, Toxin Sacs get more wounds.


that's true. rerolling wounds on anything t4 is pretty handy, but i don't really wanna kill the whole unit of marines by killing them with my 30 attacks so they can get shot up on the opponents turn.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Toxin sacs are always better/same unless you are wounding on 2+ or 3+ before upgrades... and if you are fighting T2-3 enemies with stealers then the fight is already over anyway so no need to worry about it.

Something I want to try is infiltrating my stealers- I am constantly hoping for the chance to set up inside 18" (especially with first turn) or for an opponent to reserve their force. i think I'll infiltarte quite often in DoW games (especially if going first).

So far with the 5th dex Ive been outflanking stealers supporting the swarmlord... its a great combo, and the stealers have been winning me games: 24 outflanking stealers (no broodlords yet) for 408pts is awesome, especially when you have an 89% chance of turning up on the flank you want.
Ive been finding that I am taking plenty of return fire but that I have enough models to weather it and carry on- I had 4 stealers charge into a tac squad and hold it up (plus killing a rune priest) for a few turns- so long as you are getting support heading their way to draw some fire away and to surround the enemy they work pretty well (I wouldnt want to issolate them though).


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> Toxin sacs are always better/same unless you are wounding on 2+ or 3+ before upgrades... and if you are fighting T2-3 enemies with stealers then the fight is already over anyway so no need to worry about it.


If you would normaly wound on better than a 4+, with Toxin Sacs you wound on a 4+ with re-rolls. You DON'T wound on 3+ with Re-rolls. Thats why Toxin Sacs on Montrous Creatures is bad


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Toxin Sac's are still better than wounding on 3+ without rerolls. Toxin Sac's give you a 75% wound rate against same or lower toughness vs strength. Strength 4 vs toughness 3 you wound 66% of the time. So for 'Stealers wheere you're basically never going to be 2+ to wound they are always better. 

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Thats what I was saying.

Natural 6+ (17%)
Toxin 4+ (50%)
Adrenal Gland (17-33%)

Natural 5+ (33%)
Toxin 4+ (50%)
Adrenal Gland (50%)

Natural 4+ (50%)
Toxin 4+ reroll (75%)
Adrenal Gland (67%)

Natural 3+ (67%)
Toxin 4+ reroll (75%)
Adrenal Gland (83%)

So adrenal only has the advantage when you would be wounding on a natural 2+ or 3+. Stealers/hormogaunts rarely basically never wound on a 2+, and if its a 3+ then they'll pump out so many wounds wither way for it not to matter.
MCs should often be wounding on a 2+ so toxin really shouldnt ever be taken on them... the 1 exception being on tervigons where their own attacks are less important then the termagants around them.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Oh right, I miss interpreted your post :wink:


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