# Commissars = military police?



## Duke_Leto (Dec 11, 2010)

Hi all - a fluff question for you...

Are Commissars the military police in the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy?

I know they are "political officers" - which in a theocracy like the Imperium means they are also like religious police, but do they also serve a role equivalent to our 20th Century Military Police


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Somewhat. They mete out jurisdiction over matters of competence and faith, or, rather, the lack of either; usually consisting of a summary execution.

The police, however, is filled by the Arbites on the civilian side, and on the military side, either by Commissar's, or by other Schola Progenium heavies - notably Storm Troopers on naval vessels, although Armsmen (as seperate from chaingangs/press ratings) are known to help NCO's in this matter. I've yet to find a reference to the equivalent of Red caps in 40K, although I could be mistaken.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't know much about how the MP operate but i would say yes. In the gaunts ghosts novels and the Ciaphus Cain books there are several instances where troopers have gotten out of line and it is the Commisars who are left to deal with punishment. In one of the GG books a civilian murder leads to inquiry and trial all of which is led by the local Commisars. In one of the CC books a troopers is picked up by the local Arbites and held until he can be turned over to Caine for punishment duties.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I'd say there isn't a standing legion of MPs _in_ the Guard itself, it seems to be somewhat self-regulatory, NCOs and officers report troopers, who are disciplined by the Commissar. The Commissar him/herself is a political officer, at least in title, not largely a judiciary authority, though that's the most recognizable part of the job. Most political officers are more situated to enforce party values and ensure there isn't any dissent among an army- like the political commissars in the Soviet Red Army.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Commissar are Commissar. there not MP.

there base, if i put a guess done, on the fact that the old Sovet unions Red army had Commissars, and they did the whole no retreate, i shoot you as well. Political commissar are associated with the Soviet Union where the Russian Provisional Government of 1917 introduced them to the military forces to ensure the government’s political control. In the event, after the October Revolution, the political commissar remained in the Red Army until 1942.

In the Red Army and the Soviet Army, the political commissar existed only during the 1918–24, 1937–40, and 1941-42 periods; not every Red Army political officer was a commissar. The political commissar held military rank equalling that of the unit commander to whom he was attached; moreover, the commissar also had the military authority to countermand the unit commander’s orders when required. In the Red Army historical periods when political officers were militarily subordinate to unit commanders, the political commissar institution did not exist in the Red Army.

Thank you wikipeida.

in eassence Commissar are Commissar there unique.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

They take on some of the roles of modern MP, following inquires, enforcing laws, ect. On the other hand, they don't manage traffic or do anything with riot or crowd control (unless it's with a single bolt to the head to keep everyone else in line).

In short, no, they're not really military police. They're something unique.




Vaz said:


> The police, however, is filled by the Arbites on the civilian side, and on the military side, either by Commissar's, or by other Schola Progenium heavies - notably Storm Troopers on naval vessels, although Armsmen (as seperate from chaingangs/press ratings) are known to help NCO's in this matter. I've yet to find a reference to the equivalent of Red caps in 40K, although I could be mistaken.


Storm Troopers don't police anything. They're elite combat troops used to exploit weaknesses in enemy lines, as a rapid relief force for holes in friendly lines, or used for behind enemy line sorties (deep recon, assassination, ect). I'm not quite sure where you got that they were some sort of police force.

I'm not sure naval armsmen are used for policing either. They're usually used to escort or guard prisoners on the ship or to enact or repulse boarding actions. I think the closest thing I've heard about naval police would be the provosts in the first Cain book.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes, they do.

What do they do when not repelling boarders? Storm Troopers are on Naval Vessels, and are the one truly reliable resource a Commissar or senior representative of the Imperium's forces has.

There's a relative lot of information about Naval combat in the Gothic War series.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Armsmen and Storm Troopers being used to police ships seems reasonable to me- if nothing else because they'd just be sitting on their hands. And if there's one thing I've learned in my life it's that soldiers sitting on their hands is a bad, _bad_, *bad* idea.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Commissars are political police, they served the same role as real-life commissars did in the Soviet Army 1917-1946. Just as the Soviets, I imagine the Imperial Guard/Navy operate a separate corps of police as the Commissars would be too overwhelmed with work otherwise.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Yes, they do.
> 
> What do they do when not repelling boarders? Storm Troopers are on Naval Vessels, and are the one truly reliable resource a Commissar or senior representative of the Imperium's forces has.
> 
> There's a relative lot of information about Naval combat in the Gothic War series.


Why on Earth would an *Imperial Guard* unit have any authority on a naval vessel? There has been a strict distinction between the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy since the Horus Heresy. 

And what else would Storm Troopers do on a naval ship while in transit? Anything else an Imperial Guardsman is supposed to do: pray to the Emperor, maintain his kit, drills, and try to pass the time in any way (drugs, gambling, ect.) they can without the commissars jumping down their neck.

I myself have not read the Gothic War series. I'll probably go out tonight and snag myself a copy of them. In the mean while, please cite where Storm Troopers are the go to men in _standard_ naval circumstances. Nothing out of the ordinary where their unique skills are required (say, assassinating the leader of a shipwide mutiny). Something mundane that MP are expected to do. Manage the loading and off-loading of gear, checking for contraband, operating and guarding the brig, and routine security checks.

Because from everything I've read so far, Storm Troopers are not used for these menial tasks.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

So, basically; you're refuting it, because you've not personally seen it? I'm guessing you think that the world's flat then?

They aren't Imperial Guard. They're Schola Progenium, like the Commisar.

As to citing my source; I've already told you. Gothic War.

Policing the ship? It'll sort itself out. They don't patrol the gantry's, fucking hell. That'll get them killed. No, they are close protection for the officers, and the reliable resource through which a commissar can enforce his will.

I've not said that ST's do any of that. So I don't know why you're bringing it up. MP/Red Caps are mostly Close Protection in a military role. Derp De Fucken Derp.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

As Vaz has stated, the ST component aboard Naval Ships is there for specific purposes including protection of senior officers. The gothic wars stuff leads us to these conclusions.

As has been stated too, the role of Arbites is to patrol and enforce Imperial Law upon those worlds that are under Imperial Protection. Note that most worlds have their own law enforcement agencies to deal with internal matters. The arbites are there to enforce Imperial Law, nothing more, but nothing less. 

As for MP.

Way back in RT era days. There is a rank for MP. Its a single line of fluff and it from memory would have appeared in either the Compendium or BRB of the RT era. Basically all it shows is a arm rank badge. In the old RT era, Lt. Commander etc were all ranks common in the Astrates. One particular graphic has 3 crimson fist arms from memory and one of the ranks shown is MP. This to my knowledge is the first and last apperance of it.

The role of MP in the Astrates is one which is really taken up by the Chaplain for all purposes of enforcing will and why the unit is fighting. It is the Chaplain who is the representative of the Emperor and the Imperium. Hence;

1). They have a Rosarius to show their link (NO MATTER HOW LIP SERVICE the link is) to the Adminstratum and the Eccelisarchy.

2). They wear black armor to represent the dead Emperor on the throne or semi dead... same with the entire skull motif to inspire fear in their enemies.


The Chaplain is not there to police the Astrates over mundane matters, but to enforce the will of the Emperor and ensure the Astrates are compliant with the Imperium. But you have to recognize they are marines of the Chapter first... so the likely hood of them being in that role is more over matters of Heresy or over deviation from the Imperial creed or Codex Astrates more than anything else. The modern fluff has them more as inspirational leaders than their first role.... but the echo's in the fluff are there.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> So, basically; you're refuting it, because you've not personally seen it? I'm guessing you think that the world's flat then?
> 
> They aren't Imperial Guard. They're Schola Progenium, like the Commisar.
> 
> ...


They are not Schola Progenium. They grew up and trained there, but there are Imperial Guard. Come to that matter, Commisars are as well, but they're outside the chain of command.

And I think this...disagreement, is based upon your understanding of what military police do. If you think they're some sort of elite bodyguards then, hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Then again you think the Schola Progenium alumni form some sort of unique organization outside both the Navy and Guard.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm fully aware of what MP's do. MORE THAN fully aware.

And no, the Schola Progenium is autonomous as are those in its ranks. 

Where exactly does it say that they're Imperial Guardsmen?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

From the Imperial Guard Codex, fifth edition. I'll take some quotes:

"Storm Troopers form the Imperial Guard's best fighting force. They are ruthless, proficient killers whose combat skills within the Imperial Guard are second to none."

This is important as it says that they're part of the Imperial Guard.

"...Storm Troopers are better armed and armored than regular Guardsmen." 

This implies that there are other Guardsmen who are better armored than normal guardsmen--Storm Troopers, for example.

"Storm Troopers are constantly moving from one warzone to another and are amongst the most experienced units in the Imperial Guard."

It says explicitly that they're part of the Imperial Guard there.

This isn't to say that Storm Troopers can not be seconded to individuals or other Imperial bodies: the Inquisition, for example.

I think this disagreement stems from one misconception you're holding. Storm Troopers may have some duties that they share with military police--guarding important officials or positions behind the lines. But as you said, Storm Troopers do not do many of the duties expected of MP. Which is fair, since they're different.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Basically, "legal authority" is tied to rank authority. Punishments are meeted out by higher ranking officials. In IG units, the final authority on crimes because he has the final authority on any given soldier of any rank.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> This isn't to say that Storm Troopers can not be seconded to individuals or other Imperial bodies: the Inquisition, for example.
> 
> I think this disagreement stems from one misconception you're holding. Storm Troopers may have some duties that they share with military police--guarding important officials or positions behind the lines. But as you said, Storm Troopers do not do many of the duties expected of MP. Which is fair, since they're different.


That's true, and neither did I say they were MP's, neither did I say they were limited to sitting on the hands during conflict on ships.

For example, IA3 - they protected the stores and made sure that the Transports got off safely.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> The police, however, is filled by the Arbites on the civilian side, and on the military side, either by Commissar's, or by other Schola Progenium heavies - notably Storm Troopers on naval vessels...


You explicitly said that Storm Troopers are a police force. On a naval vessel, nonetheless.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> The police, however, is filled by the Arbites on the civilian side, and on the military side, either by Commissar's, or by other Schola Progenium heavies - notably Storm Troopers on naval vessels, although Armsmen (as seperate from chaingangs/press ratings) are known to help NCO's in this matter


You need to read again sunshine.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I would love to hear you keep digging. Do explain. For slow people like me.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Tell me where, I said, that Storm Troopers were purely used for Police duties on naval vessels?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

You said they were used as police. They clearly are not, as they do not do all the duties required of police. Or even close to all the duties.

Imagine a venn diagram. There are two circles, a Storm Trooper and Military Police circle. There is some overlap, say, 10% or so.

Yes, there is overlap. Saying that Storm Troopers are used as a police force on Naval ships would be insane.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Fucking hell, you really are pathetic.

The army is used as firefighters on occasion, does this make them firefighters? No does it fuck. I fight alongside American's, does this make me American? Does it fuck.

Didn't realise I was talking to a fucking lawyer here, best watch my words. I was using it in a loose term, as you can tell be myself not going into an in depth answer, as unless you're too retarded to note, we're not dealing with Storm Troopers. I merely made the correlation that on Naval Ships, Storm Troopers are used in the same manner that Arbites, Commissar's, and Armsmen are used.

Christ on a fucking bike, for someone who puts across as being highly intelligent, you're extremely thick when it comes to it.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Fucking hell, you really are pathetic.
> 
> The army is used as firefighters on occasion, does this make them firefighters? No does it fuck. I fight alongside American's, does this make me American? Does it fuck.


My point exactly. I'm glad you came around and accepted it.



Vaz said:


> Didn't realise I was talking to a fucking lawyer here, best watch my words. I was using it in a loose term, as you can tell be myself not going into an in depth answer, as unless you're too retarded to note, we're not dealing with Storm Troopers. I merely made the correlation that on Naval Ships, Storm Troopers are used in the same manner that Arbites, Commissar's, and Armsmen are used.


No, you said that Storm Troopers fulfilled the role of [military] police on Naval vessels. I disagreed. Thankfully you withdrew that comment and we now both agree that Storm Troopers are in fact not a policing force.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

*IG - Military Police?*

OK, I guess from all the arguing and missing the point completely, we never actually got the answer.
So, as I need to know for a story I am writing, and as it is a few years later... are there Military Police (MP's) in the Imperial Guard?

If not... and let me stress this, we are not on board ships here, we are on dry land, let's say a planet and in a garrison town. Who keeps an eye on the Guard when they are off duty and letting their hair down in the bars and other less-desirable hostelries???


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Oh god


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Commissars are Political and _Morale_ officers.

I'd say regiments/brigades would have dedicated Provost units etc as the Storm Troopers are too elite to be used picking up drunken Guardsmen on a Friday night :good:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There have been mentions of provost troops and commisariat troops as well in various IG novels. They would be the same as MPs. 

Seriously though, you're better off starting a new thread than necroing one three and a half years old.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Actually, I ran a search and came up with this thread. It went nowhere, so I 'woke it up' so-to-speak.
I guess I will never get the definitive answer on here, so I will make it up, without opening up a new thread.

And thanks to *Nacho libre's* input... that was MOST helpful icknose:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ciaphas Cain mentions commissarial provosts used in the manner as MPs in For the Emperor, so I guess at least the more junior commissars are like that like e.g. cadet commissars as Ibram Gaunt seemed to slip into that area as stern and reasonable just like Cain. So I would guess the more reasonable commissars would act like MPs.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ciaphas Cain mentions commissarial provosts used in the manner as MPs in For the Emperor, so I guess at least the more junior commissars are like that like e.g. cadet commissars as Ibram Gaunt seemed to slip into that area as stern and reasonable just like Cain. So I would guess the more reasonable commissars would act like MPs.


Thanks for that, most helpful. :victory:


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

So anyway... this is what I ended up putting in my story...


Brother Emund said:


> Ó Báire had just laid out two Commissarial Provosts, one after the other in rapid succession, and had now positioned himself on a stool by the door, so he could welcome the rest of them when they came in.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Heh, I was an argumentative cunt back in the day.

Happy to see nothing's changed.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Heh, I was an argumentative cunt back in the day.
> 
> Happy to see nothing's changed.


Never change Vaz, never change. :good:


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