# Thought on Raven Guard and Raptors Chapter *Contains Spoilers for Deliverance Lost*



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I've been re reading Deliverance Lost and I noticed a couple of things have while reading all available info on the Raptors Chapter (as I can't find much on the Revilers or the Black Guard).

It's stated in Index Astartes IV that the Raven Guard's geneseed was irreparably damaged by Corax's experiments which we know were tampered with by the Alpha Legion. However we do know that some of the Raven Guard "raptors" received the new modified geneseed prior to Omegon's tampering and they were superior to the standard Raven Guard. I'm taking a leap and thinking some of these uber Raven Guard survived the heresy (although there is insufficient evidence one way or the other on this)

I wonder if these became the Raptors Chapter as in the fluff for the Raptors there is no mention that the Raptors' geneseed is even slightly damaged let alone irreparably damaged. Of course this could be an oversight or a gap in the fluff but it could be that the Raptors have maintained their uber Raven Guard geneseed from Deliverance Lost.

If this is true I wonder if it could be used to save the original Raven Guard, but then again Corax bred secrecy into all his marines and so maybe the Raptors haven't told the Raven Guard, or maybe they don't even know.

If other people have discussed this already I'm sorry but I couldn't find a link.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well the altered geneseed allowed them to produce more marines at the time and they where only a little better in all around physique etc.

This could potentially explain why the Raptor's Chapter is a lot hardier than most other chapters if you go by their accomplishments in the forgeworld badab book.

I'm not entirely sure whether he would of told the rest of the chapter but I don't think enough pure geneseed would of survived through the heresy as well as into 40k so who knows.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well the altered geneseed allowed them to produce more marines at the time and they where only a little better in all around physique etc.
> 
> This could potentially explain why the Raptor's Chapter is a lot hardier than most other chapters if you go by their accomplishments in the forgeworld badab book.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure whether he would of told the rest of the chapter but I don't think enough pure geneseed would of survived through the heresy as well as into 40k so who knows.


Yeah, this is my conundrum as well. I wouldn't have made the link at all if it wasn't for the fact that the Raptors are not mentioned as having any problems with their geneseed when their parent Chapter does which is just plain weird. I can't think of any other examples where this is the case (apart from the Lamenters who's geneseed was deliberately altered in the 21st founding and in any case the Lamenters do have problems, just different problems to the Blood Angels).

I thought the parent Chapter (ie the first founding Legion-Chapters like the Raven Guard, Blood Angels etc) would have the "purest" geneseed of the Primarch they are descended from. I.e. They would have the closest to the original geneseed from their associated Primarch - The Imperial Fists geneseed would be purer Rogal Dorn geneseed than the Black Templars, the Blood Angels geneseed would be purer Sanguinius than the Flesh Tearers etc etc.

I might be wrong however.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It really depends on how they look after the geneseed. 

All geneseed descends from the first legions but theres a number of ways they can deteriorate or remain pure:- 

- They have been deliberately altered, like they did with the cursed founding. 

- Some geneseed is mis-managed or damage during previous implantation into subject and this could be much broader if it continues.

- Some Geneseed could be handled very very well such as in a sacred object like the Blood Angels do, or what the Crimson Fists did before their Monastery blew up.

- Some, like the Silver Skulls Chapter could be unknown and not even know whether it was pure or not.

- Most geneseed has defection in it as known, some are vague problems like the changing colour of the skin that the Raven Guard and Salamanders have where as others are extreme like Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

If Geneseed is lost etc it's replaced by some from Terra.

The Raptor's geneseed is most likely a replacement from Terra or it's parent chapter since it supposedly had it's original home world near the eye of terror destroyed during the 3rd or 4th black crusade, so it should be pretty pure but more than likely not the same geneseed the actual geneseed of the original experiment raptors, but who knows that's just an idea.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I think that the Raptors chapter isnt the dexcendant of the modified gene seed. I think the Charcharodon Astra are. I dont have the background book that talks about them. BUt from what ive heard, they havent been heard from in a long time, they stayed out of the Imperiums borders, they have almsot exclusively Heresy Era gear, really pale skin, all black eyes and I think one of their captains or their chapter master is described as having multiple rows of teeth, suggesting gene seed mutation. 
If they were mutants and Corax wanted to get rid of them, but not kill them as he talks about in the end of deliverence lost, why not just send them away from the Imperium to operate outside its borders where they wont be noticed? This with the black eyes pale skin, Heresy Era gear, and potential gene seed mutations suggests this to me. 
Just a thought.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Hmm, very nice idea.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

doofyoofy said:


> I think that the Raptors chapter isnt the dexcendant of the modified gene seed. I think the Charcharodon Astra are. I dont have the background book that talks about them. BUt from what ive heard, they havent been heard from in a long time, they stayed out of the Imperiums borders, they have almsot exclusively Heresy Era gear, really pale skin, all black eyes and I think one of their captains or their chapter master is described as having multiple rows of teeth, suggesting gene seed mutation.
> If they were mutants and Corax wanted to get rid of them, but not kill them as he talks about in the end of deliverence lost, why not just send them away from the Imperium to operate outside its borders where they wont be noticed? This with the black eyes pale skin, Heresy Era gear, and potential gene seed mutations suggests this to me.
> Just a thought.


Excellent idea, + rep


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

One thing to comment on as well is that the First Founding Legion chapters woul not necessarily have the purest of all gene-seed. While the logic for that argument is there you have to remember that Second Founding Chapters were basically the same thing as their parent Legions. To me, First and Second Foundings are the same for all intents and purposes. You could honestly say that even the 'title bearer' chapters (Blood Angels, Iron Hands, ect) are actually Second Founding, taking into account their dissolvement as a Legion and refounding as a Chapter.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I cant find the quote about the rows of teeth on one of Charchardons, perhaps someone else would know where it is, I think it might be a side blurb or something on the IA books. Perhaps someone more knowledgable could locate it or knows it?


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Are ya'll tallking about Tyberos the red wake?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyberos#.T8QxQ9W0yyo


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## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

Wait in deliverance lost the first batch of raptors werent affected it was only the second Were "Navar hef" was in was affect so the raptors maybe decendents the ones that werent mutated on the gene seed experment


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

cragnes417 said:


> Wait in deliverance lost the first batch of raptors werent affected it was only the second Were "Navar hef" was in was affect so the raptors maybe decendents the ones that werent mutated on the gene seed experment


Yeah, this is what I meant in my original post.


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