# Magical Defence - how does one make the most of it?



## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Greetings, fellow Heretics! I've got a few questions for you. No right or wrong answers here; it's all a matter of opinion, and I'm curious about yours. These are all from the point of view of a 2,000 - 2,250 point "take all comers" list, so read as such.


*Staff of Sorcery* - How many DD are required to it worthwhile? Personally, I'm inclined to say five or so, but what do you think?


*Dispel Scrolls* - At what point do they become redundant? Some would say never, but I reckon once you've got seven or eight DD, you can pretty much stop what you want to. Except for IF, of course, but Scrolls don't help there anyway.


*Snipers* - Hochland Long Rifles, suicide Scouts, targeted spells, cannons, et cetera. Given the means to take out enemy Wizards early on (and with a degree of reliability), do you feel safe easing off the "proper" magical countermeasures?


*Alternative methods* - MR, Drain Magic, Ring of Hotek, Greatskull, all that good stuff. How do these factors change things? Are the any substitute for the good old Scroll Caddy?

Feel free to bring up whatever else you feel like; these were more or less just off the top of my head. This is meant as a discussion, rather than a hard and fast "Q&A". Thoughts? Opinions? What say you?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Greetings, fellow Heretics! I've got a few questions for you. No right or wrong answers here; it's all a matter of opinion, and I'm curious about yours. These are all from the point of view of a 2,000 - 2,250 point "take all comers" list, so read as such.
> 
> [*]*Staff of Sorcery* - How many DD are required to it worthwhile? Personally, I'm inclined to say five or so, but what do you think?


I personally wouldn't take it for less than a 2500-3000 point list, after which it would become invaluable. That would be 6-8 DD dice for me, plus plenty of magic resistance. At that point, its about the equivalent of an extra dice (or two) a turn, and very worth it. Lower than that and 2 dispel scrolls are are better option (especially when you mess up their 4/5 dice spells)




Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> [*]*Dispel Scrolls* - At what point do they become redundant? Some would say never, but I reckon once you've got seven or eight DD, you can pretty much stop what you want to. Except for IF, of course, but Scrolls don't help there anyway.


Never, at least against strong magical armies. Against weaker magic armies, then yeah, once you have nearly as many DD as they have Power dice. Being able to stop even one major spell that could mess up your army is important. For take all comers lists, I would always advocate having at least one scroll, if you can manage it, for when anyone busts out some power stones or similar. Its very very worth it.

Looking at larger battles, 2500+, PD go up faster than DD, so against any decent magical army, they will always have more PD than your DD, and scrolls will always have a use. So, if you can pull out a scroll at the right time, it can be a life saver. Scrolls become far more potent, as you're more likely to face lord level casters - who can use up to 5 PD per spell. A handful of points to take out 4/5 PD? hells yes!




Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> [*]*Snipers* - Hochland Long Rifles, suicide Scouts, targeted spells, cannons, et cetera. Given the means to take out enemy Wizards early on (and with a degree of reliability), do you feel safe easing off the "proper" magical countermeasures?


Wizard sniping is useful, but never expect that it will always work - fail to take them out, and you'll be hurt badly in the magical phase for being unprepared. cannon sniping, especially at 2000 points and lower, is very unlikely to succeed, and you miss out on having your cannons shoot at where they could do the most damage.




Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> [*]*Alternative methods* - MR, Drain Magic, Ring of Hotek, Greatskull, all that good stuff. How do these factors change things? Are the any substitute for the good old Scroll Caddy?


MR - usually they'll just avoid casting against that unit, so it only makes a difference the first time they cast (and find you adding a few extra DD to your attempt). It is hugely useful though for protecting your super unit, but not as an overall magic defence strategy. As a bretonnian, I'm pretty lucky, all my wizards have MR 1, so I just put one (very cheap) one in each major lance of knights, and boom, extra DD every time they cast.

Others - not too sure of their effects, so I'll let others handle them. Brets do have an item that works as a scroll, and inflicts an auto st.6 hit on the wizard who cast it, but quite simply its far better to carry 2 scrolls, than one of that item.


For an all comers list, 2000 points or so, at least 5-6 DD are good, and a couple of scrolls. More DD are good, but a scroll can still be useful in a pinch.

Posting individual points costs is against forum rules - squeek


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Mycurrent Empire army has no wizards at all just an arch lector and a warrior priest and I have yet to lose a game because of magic (poor generalship and stupid movement don't count as magic do they?) 
The only army that I take specific magic defence for is undead but as a rule even magic heavy armies don't do enough magical damage to worry although a few of the new Chaos spells are really evil they do take a bit of luck to get the best result.
I'd rather have the extra troops and slightly more offensive characters than an expensive unarmoured wizard.
As for long rifles I have 4 in my list and so far in the 4 games I've played I have killed 3 wizards and reduced an arch lector on popemobile to 1 wound which I consider worth the points.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

neilbatte said:


> Mycurrent Empire army has no wizards at all just an arch lector and a warrior priest and I have yet to lose a game because of magic (poor generalship and stupid movement don't count as magic do they?)
> The only army that I take specific magic defence for is undead but as a rule even magic heavy armies don't do enough magical damage to worry although a few of the new Chaos spells are really evil they do take a bit of luck to get the best result.
> I'd rather have the extra troops and slightly more offensive characters than an expensive unarmoured wizard.
> As for long rifles I have 4 in my list and so far in the 4 games I've played I have killed 3 wizards and reduced an arch lector on popemobile to 1 wound which I consider worth the points.


This sounds like a case where different armies have different magical defence needs. I suppose playing brets, where a good bit of magic can decimate expensive knight units, I get stuck in thinking about stopping as much magic as possible. Whereas, if you have more of an infantry heavy/hoard army, a few spells getting at them mean very little, plenty more where they came from.

Also, it sounds like your hockland long rifles are pretty handy for wizard sniping. I haven't played against them since my friends empire army in 5th ed. Sounds like they're still a bitch of a thing to go against!


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

maddermax said:


> This sounds like a case where different armies have different magical defence needs...


That would definatly be the case, but its also a matter of _how_ your army is composed. 
A mounted army of heavy hitters will most likely only need to survive 1-2 turns of enemy magic before it hits CC and this can many times be done by a single scrollcaddy alone.
A defensivly built list with much fragile shooting will most likely require some additional protection.

Regarding Scrolls Id say that having 1 is never redundant, there will most likely come a situation where you simply _not_ want to roll double 1's, or extremly shitty:no:
_- I cast "The Wolf Hunts" on my HELord and his Stardragon to charge your Chaos knights in the flank and start the flank-rolling:grin: 
Roll: 12
- No worries, I take 5 dice and dispel it! 
Roll: 1,1,6,4,6(or 2,1,3,2,2 or similar shit) yay 6's, uhm wait, wtf:ireful2:_
Having 4 in an army with 8 DD on 2k pts will be redundant however, once again its down to army-construction:wink:

Mage-hunting/sniping units are always good! Goblin Wolf Charriots spring into mind here very fast, totally expendable thanks to their cheap price and many attacks which will secure the few needed wounds to kill a lvl 2 mage!
Sure some mages are elusive, flying ones mostly, but they can also be pressed to stay away from a certain area to give you some respite from short range spellsk:

Some armies have other things to stop or redirect enemy spells yea, most dominant is the Ring of Hotek ofc. All of these will require carefull planning of the army to get out max effect of the item(s). And there are always downsides, Ring of Hotek for example isnt very effective against lots of 2 dice casted spells, and against OK magic its beyond useless


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nothing like going against a Chaos Sorceror, and having it cut down by a Greatsword Champion. Bah. Although having a 3 attack, MR(3) Stubborn Mage is good fun - at least until he pops it.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

i use a single runesmith with MroBalance and a spellbreaker rune. 6 dd and 1 ds- handy aganist balanced armys, but i tend to lose out against magic heavy armys- such as slann + 3 skink priests magic heavy. or a wood elf army whose mage has a staff that can cast tree singing mutilple times, and then casts fury of the forest 4 times a turn with 2 mages. i lost 20 ironbreakers in 2 turns. not fun.


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