# Chapter Master vs Chapter Master



## Terminus Decree

Everyone loves a vs's thread and I've seen plenty of primarch ones and other ones like Gaunt vs Cain and whatever else but I'd like to see one focusing on Chapter Masters but only from the main chapters which for me anyway include
Ultramarines
Blood angels
Dark angels
Space wolves
Imperial fists 
White scars
Iron hands
Raven guard
Salamanders 
Crimson fists
Black Templars 
Grey knights
Doom eagles
Blood ravens
So I guess my question is of all the chapter masters from these chapters ( I trust you know who they are) who do you believe is the greatest and why and who would win in a fight which featured all of them at once???


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## Archon Dan

The Lord of Baal, Commander Dante. He has the wisdom of age on his side, having organized campaigns before many of the others' great grandfathers were birthed. He may not be the strongest but he is cunning and clever as well as politically astute; something many Chapter Masters lack. In a complete free-for-all, he would bide his time, letting the strongest destroy and weaken each other, possibly uniting some of the others to a temporary alliance. Those of great strength would be too arrogant to ally. Lastly, Dante has the advantage of flight. Few other chapter masters use Jump Packs and none would be as skilled. 
From the books I've been reading about the Blood Angels, it would probably take one of their successors' chapter masters to bring Dante down in single combat. Even then, he would be patient and let his foe weaken himself, fighting in a defensive retreat.


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## Terminus Decree

I agree in that I think that Dante would hold an advantage in that he makes use of a jump pack but I wouldn't put it past the raven guard chapter master to also make use of one and haeron from the doom eagles to also use one. So just say these two were to combine forces for a time just to eliminate Dante do you think that Dante could manage to defeat the two of them at the same time??


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## Eva

Archon Dan said:


> The Lord of Baal, Commander Dante. He has the wisdom of age on his side, having organized campaigns before many of the others' great grandfathers were birthed. He may not be the strongest but he is cunning and clever as well as politically astute; something many Chapter Masters lack. In a complete free-for-all, he would bide his time, letting the strongest destroy and weaken each other, possibly uniting some of the others to a temporary alliance. Those of great strength would be too arrogant to ally. Lastly, Dante has the advantage of flight. Few other chapter masters use Jump Packs and none would be as skilled.
> From the books I've been reading about the Blood Angels, it would probably take one of their successors' chapter masters to bring Dante down in single combat. Even then, he would be patient and let his foe weaken himself, fighting in a defensive retreat.


My, that is rather presumptuous of you.


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## Magpie_Oz

It is laughable to suggest that anyone other than the Son of Vulkan the Honoured Chapter Master Tu'Shan of the Salamanders would prevail in any trial you would care to submit.

Even Commander Dante says as much

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tu`Shan#.UOPKoeSsh8E

While Dante is without doubt without peer, Tu'Shan is much younger yet has a wise head on those young shoulders.


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## Archon Dan

Terminus Decree said:


> I agree in that I think that Dante would hold an advantage in that he makes use of a jump pack but I wouldn't put it past the raven guard chapter master to also make use of one and haeron from the doom eagles to also use one. So just say these two were to combine forces for a time just to eliminate Dante do you think that Dante could manage to defeat the two of them at the same time??


That is intriguing. I guess the flip of what I said could mean that Dante is viewed as the biggest threat and targeted early. Respect could easily flip to fear. Could he withstand an early 2-on-1 fight? Maybe. He's fought Greater Daemons and lived. But the question presented was rather tough. I went with my gut. In a series of one-on-one fights, Dante could certainly meet his match, even with the Jump Pack and tactical experience.



Eva said:


> My, that is rather presumptuous of you.


Which part? This really is an opinion based situation. I favor Dante. Who would your money be on? You really shouldn't just indicate I'm "wrong" and not put your support behind another candidate.

My conclusion is reached by what I know of the fluff. Perhaps there is a detail about another I am unaware of. But like many Blood Angels I may just be arrogant; as the Flesh Tearers put it anyway. But as this is about the fluff(I'll leave it to Terminus to decide whether or not to ask the thread be moved.), we are not all going to agree. I merely ask that if you challenge my opinion that you present one of your own.

EDIT: Can you provide the source for Dante saying that, Magpie? I'd love to know more. Reading Red Fury, I have this sense that Dante is always in control. Even when meeting with his advisers, he has a plan in mind but guides them to suggest it instead of just commanding it.


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## Hellados

I'm afraid you get another vote for Dante here too, I haven't read a lot about the other chapters, especially not the chapter masters as from what I remember they're normally mentioned then the author moves on. Dante however we have heard/seen/read of fighting toe to toe with things that tore a (Venerable) Dreadnought Chapter Master apart after out witting and controlling the Flesh Tearers in a debate.

He also ran a war of Armageddon (but Logan ran the first one).

I would love to hear some fluff about the other chapter masters though.


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## Terminus Decree

Supporting evidence or whatever can come from fluff or BL novels, when it comes to warhammer 40k I'm insanely engrossed in the books more so than gaming, at last count I own roughly 150 BL novels give or take but I'm happy to see people base their opinions on fluff


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## normtheunsavoury

Moved to 40K Fluff

I'd have to go for Dante too, he's the best, plain and simple.

(I do love the BA so I'm probably biased and cannot base my argument on anything other than favouritism!)


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## Terminus Decree

Nobody thinks supreme grand master lord kaldor draigo??? Can't believe that people!


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## Protoss119

Well, the Blood Ravens Chapter Master, be it Kyras or Cap'n Gabe, could just steal everyone else's relics and then claim they were "gifted" to them...


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## ckcrawford

I'd say Dante or Grimnar. 

Of course we could say Calgar, though Calgar's triumphs can be questioned, if _Iron Warrior_ and _The Chapter's Due_ have taught us anything.


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## gen.ahab

Grimnar. Logan has decapitated one Grand Master already, so I don't see Grey Knights being a huge issue. I mean, come on, the man teleported onto a Grey Knight ship and executed a Grand Master for breaking the law. Badass incarnate.


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## TRU3 CHAOS

Calagar unless Matt Ward gets fired. He seriously needs to get fired, before he writes another Space Marine codex where every chapter master kisses Dante's and Calagar's ass. 

The thread question is a difficult one to answer but I'd say Grimnar and his war on Armagedon against 50000 Bezerkers was pretty badass. Grey knights only had to deal with the blood thirsters, Grimnar had to face both.


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## Magpie_Oz

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Calagar unless Matt Ward gets fired. He seriously needs to get fired, before he writes another Space Marine codex where every chapter master kisses Dante's and Calagar's ass.


Where does it say that?


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## spanner94ezekiel

Azrael?... I reckon he'd survive until near the end due to supreme tactical insight, but I would have to say that perhaps his hand to hand skills don't quite match that of Grimnar or Dante. That said, Dante's an old man - maybe his back would give in half way through. 
I reckon the Minotaurs' Chapter Master would give a decent challenge also, but perhaps lacks the same status as some of the others.


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## ckcrawford

Magpie_Oz said:


> Where does it say that?


His deeds are written quite remarkably in the Space Marine Codex. Siege of Zalathras for example where he held a whole ork force at bay by himself, him apparently ripping a Daemon Prince and an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands. As I said, its entirely possible that much of his records have been corrupted with lies. 

Thats stuff that's been complained much before, and just the way it will be unless GW thinks another Chapter can attract other fans into the game. But to deny it is something else.


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## ckcrawford

As a side note, I hope GW never kills off Dante. I always liked his fluff. I remember they killed of Chaplain Xavier for the Salamanders, since them, I know they are capable of killing off or producing anything.


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## Terminus Decree

I think we are all forgetting the exploits of draigo, firstly he spends every moment of his life in the warp without becoming corrupted, as a mere battle brother he banished M'kar the daemon prince, he slayed the bloodthirster Kar'voth, killed the six daemonettes of slaanesh, set fire to the gardens of grandfather nurgle, destroyed the domain of the lord of change m'kachan and finally he manages to carve the name of his predecessor into the daemon primarch mortarions heart. None of these r easy feats by any standards but to live for so many years in the warp and not be corrupted in any way shows fortitude above the rest of the chapter masters.


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## Magpie_Oz

ckcrawford said:


> His deeds are written quite remarkably in the Space Marine Codex. Siege of Zalathras for example where he held a whole ork force at bay by himself, him apparently ripping a Daemon Prince and an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands. As I said, its entirely possible that much of his records have been corrupted with lies.
> 
> Thats stuff that's been complained much before, and just the way it will be unless GW thinks another Chapter can attract other fans into the game. But to deny it is something else.


I'm missing the bit where every other chapter master is kissing his arse?


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## Angel of Blood

Terminus Decree said:


> I think we are all forgetting the exploits of draigo, firstly he spends every moment of his life in the warp without becoming corrupted, as a mere battle brother he banished M'kar the daemon prince, he slayed the bloodthirster Kar'voth, killed the six daemonettes of slaanesh, set fire to the gardens of grandfather nurgle, destroyed the domain of the lord of change m'kachan and finally he manages to carve the name of his predecessor into the daemon primarch mortarions heart. None of these r easy feats by any standards but to live for so many years in the warp and not be corrupted in any way shows fortitude above the rest of the chapter masters.


No none of us are forgetting him, we're choosing to ignore him. Vital difference. 

Yes, yes we get it, you seem to be rather attached to the Grey Knights and Draigo and somehow don't see how awful is fluff is. But e don't count Draigo because he's a Grey Knight, who aren't in the same league as the rest of the astartes. That and by in large everyone despises The Supreme Grand Master Mary Sue's lore and would be much more comfortable putting it down to myths or a bad dream.


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## Terminus Decree

I don't recall saying that he'd win amongst the rest of the chapter masters I'm saying that his exploits should be taken into consideration before making a decision, being in the same league as the other chapter masters or not. It is obvious I'm keen on the grey knights but I'm not biased in my decision because I don't think draigo would come out on top, personally I think it would come down to either Tu'shan, Calgar or Dante


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## Terminus Decree

And dw I can understand why you think his fluff is awful


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## Doelago

My vote will have to go to Dante. Ultimate badass in my eyes ever since the, uh, -98 codex in my eyes. Logan Grimnar is close in my eyes though. As much as I hate the scene where he kills the GK Grand Master, the rest of his lore is still awesome.


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## darkreever

Terminus Decree said:


> personally I think it would come down to either Tu'shan, *Guilliman* or Dante


Considering Guilliman is a dead primarch, and not a chapter master, I don't think he would come anywhere near the top.

And for those unable or unwilling to get the spelling right ; its Calgar not Calagar (just like its Lorgar not Logar, and Omegon not Omegron.)


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## Lemanruss27

Doelago said:


> As much as I hate the scene where he kills the GK Grand Master, the rest of his lore is still awesome.



You mean Logan grimnar ?,Do tell,i wasn't aware that he killed a GK Grand Master,could you give me the source,i didn't notice that on Lexicanum's page about him..............


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## Hellados

Yeah it was after the first war of Armageddon, SWs were trying to be nice and the GK got pissed off at them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Logan_Grimnar#.UORfXORLNu0

Grimnar was brought aboard a Grey Knights ship to negotiate his "surrender", where he instead cut down Grey Knights Grand Master Joros for his breach of the laws of parlay before teleporting away to safety.


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## Lemanruss27

:blush:,oh !,now i remeber,shame on me for forgetting such epicness,thanks brother.


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## warsmith7752

Grimnar gets my vote, space wolves are the emperors executioners, in an astartes v.s astartes situation space wolves win every time. They are supposed to that's why they were made.

This however does not mean I think Grimnar is the best Chapter Master in general. Either Dante or Calgar are the most overall badass Chapter Masters.


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## High_Seraph

Azreal would sit back in the first few slugfests and come in and kill the remaining who have battered themselves bloody.


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## Archon Dan

Protoss119 said:


> Well, the Blood Ravens Chapter Master, be it Kyras or Cap'n Gabe, could just steal everyone else's relics and then claim they were "gifted" to them...


You can have Dante's Axe Mortalis, when you pry it from his dead hands. Of course, you must then contend with his executioner, Astorath and lapdog, Mephiston, in order to keep it. Which is interesting; the BAs have more than just Dante. Many of their senior battle-brothers could crush a chapter master. But I suppose that is true of other chapters too.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Azrael?... I reckon he'd survive until near the end due to supreme tactical insight, but I would have to say that perhaps his hand to hand skills don't quite match that of Grimnar or Dante. That said, Dante's an old man - maybe his back would give in half way through.
> I reckon the Minotaurs' Chapter Master would give a decent challenge also, but perhaps lacks the same status as some of the others.


Dante's back give out? HERETIC!! May the God-Emperor smite you, whelp. :grin:
In all seriousness, Dante may be ... high in years, but he is no weak old man. 
Even before reading what others have said, Grimnar was my close second choice. Of course, Blackmane has the far more interesting background. 



ckcrawford said:


> His deeds are written quite remarkably in the Space Marine Codex. Siege of Zalathras for example where he held a whole ork force at bay by himself, him apparently ripping a Daemon Prince and an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands. As I said, its entirely possible that much of his records have been corrupted with lies.
> 
> Thats stuff that's been complained much before, and just the way it will be unless GW thinks another Chapter can attract other fans into the game. But to deny it is something else.


Didn't Calgar sucker-punch the Avatar? I have no question that he is a great leader but his skills as a warrior seem embellished. Unless it lies within Ultramar, it seems The Lord McCragge more often opts to Exterminatus a planet. 



Terminus Decree said:


> I think we are all forgetting the exploits of draigo, firstly he spends every moment of his life in the warp without becoming corrupted, as a mere battle brother he banished M'kar the daemon prince, he slayed the bloodthirster Kar'voth, killed the six daemonettes of slaanesh, set fire to the gardens of grandfather nurgle, destroyed the domain of the lord of change m'kachan and finally he manages to carve the name of his predecessor into the daemon primarch mortarions heart. None of these r easy feats by any standards but to live for so many years in the warp and not be corrupted in any way shows fortitude above the rest of the chapter masters.


But as you said, Draigo is stuck in the Warp. His exploits, if true, are great but he is, quite literally, out of touch with the Imperium. I often wonder how he can still be Grand Master. How does he issue orders? 
The other chapter masters can quite easily reach a place of challenge. But what of Draigo?


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## Hellados

High_Seraph said:


> Azreal would sit back in the first few slugfests and come in and kill the remaining who have battered themselves bloody.


I disagree, I reckon he'd see no fallen so leave to go home and get stabbed in the back by Logan as he doesn't like a fair fight (see stabbing the GK dude while under parley) :wink::wink:


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## MidnightSun

Azrael would probably do pretty well as he's not only Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, but also rules over all of their Successors as well due to his status as Grand Master of the Inner Circle into which all Successor Chapter Masters are inducted. The Masters of the Knights of the Covenant, Sons of Caliban, Angels of Redemption, and all the others, still answer to Azrael even moreso than other Successors answer to their First Legion. Dark Angels are, essentially, still a Legion, as far as I'm aware.

Midnight


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## Terminus Decree

Haha sorry I meant Marneus calgar not roboute guilliman


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## MontytheMighty

gen.ahab said:


> Grimnar. Logan has decapitated one Grand Master already, so I don't see Grey Knights being a huge issue. I mean, come on, the man teleported onto a Grey Knight ship and executed a Grand Master for breaking the law. Badass incarnate.


For shame...
1) He didn't "decapitate" the Grand Master. Get your facts straight
2) It was hardly a fair duel. Grimnar suddenly initiated the first (and final) attack 

The element of surprise was clearly on Grimnar's side. Y'know...like when the Lion knocked Leman Russ the fu** out. Is that evidence of how super-awesome the Lion is in CC? I mean, that lout Russ should've expected a blow...clearly, surprise was not a factor at all and the Lion just had a huge speed advantage


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## gen.ahab

MontytheMighty said:


> For shame...
> 1) He didn't "decapitate" the Grand Master. Get your facts straight
> 2) It was hardly a fair duel. Grimnar suddenly initiated the first (and final) attack
> 
> The element of surprise was clearly on Grimnar's side. Y'know...like when the Lion knocked Leman Russ the fu** out. Is that evidence of how super-awesome the Lion is in CC? I mean, that lout Russ should've expected a blow...clearly, surprise was not a factor at all and the Lion just had a huge speed advantage


Boo I say to your facts, mine are better. 

LIES AND BETRAYALS!


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## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> boo i say to your facts, mine are better.
> 
> Lies and betrayals!


finish him!


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## Terminus Decree

I don't think any of the chapter masters would stay back and let the others destroy themselves, I'm sure the other chapter masters would notice what they are doing and would therefore force them into combat. No chapter master would be stupid enough not to notice what the other is planning in staying away from the combat, in fact they would be slain first so that the rest can focus on each other. Except possibly Logan who in his blind rage would mistake it for cowardice, despite the fact astartes know no fear, the sw are fools, so narrow minded and as such always a step away from conflict with the inquisition.


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## Phoebus

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but couldn't this topic be thought out a bit better? We're talking about just a massive free-for-all between a bunch of Chapter Masters? Where? When? Outdoors? Indoors?

I don't think any one Chapter Master is so powerful that one could reasonably say argue he would win this bout _every time._ There are too many unknowns and variables to come to a reasonable conclusion. I'm assuming the OP wanted an answer that goes beyond "I like this Chapter Master the best!" If that's not the case, though, and we're just talking about good-natured fun...

In no particular order:
1. Whoever the current Chapter Master of the White Scars is. Why? Because he probably has some amazing version of a bike, landspeeder, etc. This gives him very good mobility, probably better protection, and definitely more firepower.
2. A Chapter Master with a jump pack. This gives him excellent mobility, including the opportunity to disengage as needed. If we're going to go by common sense (as seen in the Dawn of War II and novels), it also gives him a devastating melee attack.
3. A Chapter Master that is also a Librarian (as per the Blood Ravens). Enough said.
4. A Chapter Master who happens to be a Dreadnought. Enough said.
5. Marneus Calgar, if only because he combines powerful ranged attacks with powerful close combat attacks.

*Side note:*
I don't have a problem with Draigo for the same reason I don't have a problem with Calgar. Just as the last Ultramarines showed us that Calgar's deeds were embelished (and not for the purpose of boosting his ego or making his Chapter look better), I have no doubt that Calgar's deeds in fact different than those from his legend.


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## MidnightSun

Phoebus said:


> 5. Marneus Calgar, if only because he combines powerful ranged attacks with powerful close combat attacks.


As does Dante, as does Azrael, as do any number of Chapter Masters.

I still think Azrael would be the most likely candidate as he's Master of the Inner Circle and because he has the Watchers in the Dark taking an interest in him. No psyker, Space Marine or otherwise, can match the psychic power displayed by the Watchers (as far as I know, Librarians can slow their enemies down so it appears they move more quickly, but they cannot stop time completely. The Watchers can do this, as well as being invulnerable and excellent tailors).

Midnight


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## Doelago

MidnightSun said:


> I still think Azrael would be the most likely candidate as he's Master of the Inner Circle and because he has the Watchers in the Dark taking an interest in him. No psyker, Space Marine or otherwise, can match the psychic power displayed by the Watchers (as far as I know, Librarians can slow their enemies down so it appears they move more quickly, but they cannot stop time completely. The Watchers can do this, as well as being invulnerable and excellent tailors).


Azrael just got disqualified for cheating. :wink:


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## MidnightSun

But how can you accuse him of cheating if the Watchers _disappear_, Mr. Anderson?

Midnight


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## Reaper45

My vote is for Grimnar 

Respects his human allies and treats them are equals. Willing to defy the Ecclesiarchy will put his forces in harms way for things that he views as wrong. Told the inquistion and the grey knights where to shove it.

Will fight anyone to defend the innocent.


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## seermaster

i guess were not talking rules although it would look pretty epic imagine the greatest leaders of every army vect vs swarmlors vs gazgul etc who would win rules wise putting everyone on the table and just having a royal rumble so to speak


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## Jackinator

Terminus Decree said:


> I don't think any of the chapter masters would stay back and let the others destroy themselves, I'm sure the other chapter masters would notice what they are doing and would therefore force them into combat. No chapter master would be stupid enough not to notice what the other is planning in staying away from the combat, in fact they would be slain first so that the rest can focus on each other. Except possibly Logan who in his blind rage would mistake it for cowardice, despite the fact astartes know no fear, the sw are fools, so narrow minded and as such always a step away from conflict with the inquisition.


Someone doesn't know much about the Space Wolves at all...


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## Angel of Blood

Jackinator said:


> Someone doesn't know much about the Space Wolves at all...


Quite.


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## GabrialSagan

Logan Grimnar. He cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master, proving he can out Mary Sue Matt Ward's second favorite spank material.


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## Jackinator

GabrialSagan said:


> Logan Grimnar. He cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master, proving he can out Mary Sue Matt Ward's second favorite spank material.


Except as many people have pointed out Logan had the advantage of surprise which is all the Great Wolf needs to cut down a Grand Master, any other Chapter Master would have the same advantage. He can't out Mary Sue Draigo because the fact of the matter is Draigo's fluff is possibly the worst I've ever seen, this is widely accepted, even by Terminus who brought Draigo into the discussion in the first place


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## MontytheMighty

GabrialSagan said:


> Logan Grimnar. He cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master, proving he can out Mary Sue Matt Ward's second favorite spank material.


You guys are really milking that incident for more than it's worth

I see it as little better than Jonson's sucker punch to Russ' face


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## Magpie_Oz

GabrialSagan said:


> Logan Grimnar. He cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master, proving he can out Mary Sue Matt Ward's second favorite spank material.


Logan Grimnar cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master before whom he had come to surrender, without allowing him the honour of even drawing his weapon in defence and he did this because he didn't agree with an order from the Emperor himself. He then proceeded to turn and flee like a dog via teleport. 

Displaying hubris, rash judgement, dishonour and maverick vigilantism all of which make him the very last of any who might seek to be call the Master of Masters.


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## Malus Darkblade

Magpie_Oz said:


> Logan Grimnar cut down a Grey Knight Grand Master before whom he had come to surrender, without allowing him the honour of even drawing his weapon in defence and he did this because he didn't agree with an order from the Emperor himself. He then proceeded to turn and flee like a dog via teleport.
> 
> Displaying hubris, rash judgement, dishonour and maverick vigilantism all of which make him the very last of any who might seek to be call the Master of Masters.


You do realize the Emperor has not been giving orders for around ten thousand years right?

The High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition simply _speak on his behalf_.

Not sure we read the same book but if we did then you should know he didn't flee like a dog...he cut down a Grandmaster Grey Knight and like five others in Terminator armor (if I am not mistaken about the armor) and tactically retreated given the fact he was surrounded by 100 enemies.

And about the honor bit, you do realize the Grandmaster Greyknight opened fire on the Space Wolves ship despite the fact that both agreed to a brief ceasefire in order to begin negotiations? 

If anything, the Wolves were the honorable ones about that whole war between the two chapters seeing as how they sacrificed their own lives to save countless innocent lives.


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## MontytheMighty

Joros was portrayed as an arrogant, self-righteous individual. He didn't think Grimnar would dare to strike him down during parlay. He expected Grimnar to end his defiance and submit to Inquisitorial/GK authourity. 

Unfortunately for Joros, Grimnar made the first move and the grandmaster didn't react quickly enough. I doubt Dante or Azrael couldn't have killed Joros in the same manner.

As I've been trying to point out over and over again, it's really really hard to guard against a sucker punch. Just ask Russ


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## Magpie_Oz

Malus Darkblade said:


> You do realize the Emperor has not been giving orders for around ten thousand years right?
> 
> The High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition simply _speak on his behalf_.
> 
> Not sure we read the same book but if we did then you should know he didn't flee like a dog...he cut down a Grandmaster Grey Knight and like five others in Terminator armor (if I am not mistaken about the armor) and tactically retreated given the fact he was surrounded by 100 enemies.
> 
> And about the honor bit, you do realize the Grandmaster Greyknight opened fire on the Space Wolves ship despite the fact that both agreed to a brief ceasefire in order to begin negotiations?
> 
> If anything, the Wolves were the honorable ones about that whole war between the two chapters seeing as how they sacrificed their own lives to save countless innocent lives.


The "war" wasn't between to chapters. 

The GK's are not a chapter for a start but the war was between the Inquisition, the highest authority in the Imperium and a breakaway Space Marine Chapter who didn't have the strength of character to realise that the deaths of millions of IG and civilians who had to die because of the Daemon incursion onto Armageddon would have saved Billions. Billions who ended up dying because the Space Wolves interfered when they should have obeyed.

He killed the GM without warning, the Inquisitor in command told the assembled Knights NOT to cut him down as they would have been justified in doing. He then tried to flee via Teleporter but the GK's drew him back via their mastery of the warp. 

They were then held by psychic power, rather than exterminated as the long haired heretics they are but again rather than submit to the agents who answer only to the Emperor they decided to continue their resistance and shot the Justicars(in power armour and without helmets I mean it was a meeting not battle or so they thought), who also could not defend themselves as they were engrossed in psychic binding rather than just killing them, and they could then flee.

Then rather than pursue the Lord Inquisitor AGAIN allowed them to go on their way.

Grimnar = Dishonourable cur who thinks he is outside the law and desperately needs a shave, haircut and a wash.

Vulkan is the better man by far.


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## Malus Darkblade

Magpie_Oz said:


> The "war" wasn't between to chapters.
> 
> The GK's are not a chapter for a start


They are known as Chapter 666.



Magpie_Oz said:


> but the war was between the Inquisition, the highest authority in the Imperium and a breakaway Space Marine Chapter who didn't have the strength of character to realise that the deaths of millions of IG and civilians who had to die because of the Daemon incursion onto Armageddon would have saved Billions. Billions who ended up dying because the Space Wolves interfered when they should have obeyed.


Both chapters think differently. 

The Grey Knights deal with the metaphysical almost exclusively so they know more so than any other chapter about the dangers of Chaos.

The Wolves are more familiar with the physical realm and things that can be cut and killed by their swords. With that said, if billions were affected by an incurable plague virus then I'm certain the Wolves would have accepted their deaths as a safety precaution.

The Grey Knights were assuming the survivors/some of them were tainted, it was a big 'what if' scenario. The Wolves argued 'what if they aren't?'. It's hard to disagree with the Wolves logic. Yes, there are countless trillions in the Imperium but still, losing a million/billion veteran troops is still a big deal. 



Magpie_Oz said:


> He killed the GM without warning, the Inquisitor in command told the assembled Knights NOT to cut him down as they would have been justified in doing. He then tried to flee via Teleporter but the GK's drew him back via their mastery of the warp.


Reread the book. The Grey Knights opened fire on the wolves and killed many of them during a supposed ceasefire. Grimnar only retaliated after that by doing the same thing only face to face.

Keyword: retaliated. 



Magpie_Oz said:


> They were then held by psychic power, rather than exterminated as the long haired heretics they are but again rather than submit to the agents who answer only to the Emperor they decided to continue their resistance and shot the Justicars(in power armour and without helmets I mean it was a meeting not battle or so they thought), who also could not defend themselves as they were engrossed in psychic binding rather than just killing them, and they could then flee.Then rather than pursue the Lord Inquisitor AGAIN allowed them to go on their way.


Being a first-founding chapter, they have *a lot* of sway. I'm quite certain more chapters would align with the Wolves than the Inquisition if a full-out war were to ever happen between the two.

So there is a reason why the Inquisitor opted to restrain them as opposed to killing them outright. An insane amount of bad things would happen to the Imperium if the Wolves were ever wiped out or crippled beyond repair.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Grimnar = Dishonourable cur who thinks he is outside the law and desperately needs a shave, haircut and a wash.
> 
> Vulkan is the better man by far.


You're too biased. At least be subtle about it.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

What ceasefire? As was said the Lord Inquisitor suspected treachery from the wolves and he was right to do so given their behaviour after Armageddon and was later proved more correct by the cowardly attack on the GM.

Subtle ? From Space Wolves? Now there's a LOL. BTW it was Inquisition that made the war on the Wolves, the Grey Knights simply followed orders as the Wolves should have done


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Magpie_Oz said:


> What ceasefire?
> 
> Subtle ? From Space Wolves? Now there's a LOL. BTW it was Inquisition that made the war on the Wolves, the Grey Knights simply followed orders as the Wolves should have done


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Ah yes now Bill Cosby would make a fine grand master


----------



## Loli

As nice as this Idea is, it's rather flawed in that there is barely any information on many of the Chapter Masters. My beloved Iron Hands for example don't have a Chapter Master - despite what the Vanilla dex says I'm convinced Kardon Stronos was added as an after thought. Until the varying chapters get a dex with more background on each CM, the choices are limited. So since Draigo and Calgar are disregarded imo that leaves Logar and Dante, Tu'Shan and Azreal, I'm siding with Tu'Shan by a country mile to slaughter them all.


----------



## Lost&Damned

dante, since he is meant to stay alive till the Emperor needs him in his throne room.


----------



## LordIchor

Helbrecht, total boss k:

Helbrecht declared a Crusade against the
Cythor Fiends of the Ghoul Stars, taking the fight into this
desolate region of space, from which no expidition had
ever returned. Within eight years, the xenos population
of the'outlying systems had been exterminated and the
Crusade pushed onwards to the aliens' homeworld, but
upon reaching the cure systms, they were found to be
- eerily empty. No trace could be found of the aliens.

Then after all the he came and totally bossed Armageddon....

and he would kick ass in a fight


----------



## Angel of Blood

Magpie_Oz said:


> What ceasefire? As was said the Lord Inquisitor suspected treachery from the wolves and he was right to do so given their behaviour after Armageddon and was later proved more correct by the cowardly attack on the GM.


Your kidding right? The Wolves had been nothing but honourable up till that point. They allowed themselves to be fired upon without firing back, only concerned with protecting the men and women of the Imperium. A hell of a lot of Grey Knights even agree with the Wolves and even start conspiring to kill the Inquisitor for his handling of the situation. The Wolves wouldn't have betrayed that ceasefire, not for a minute.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Angel of Blood said:


> Your kidding right? The Wolves had been nothing but honourable up till that point.


There is nothing honourable about disobeying orders and passive aggressive resistance to the ones trying to carry out those orders.

The Space Hippies sit all high and mighty behind their false notions of "caring" for the humans but they show a spinelessness in their lack of character to do the short term bad to serve the long term good. Who knows how many billions their weakness condemned ?

Grimnar knew full well what the result had to be for the humans right from the very moment he called in the Grey Knights to fight the fight that was beyond his abilities. Yet call them down he did because he knew he had no other option, he condemned the populous as much as anyone else did.

Full of threat and bluster when they out numbered the Inquisition only to cry foul when the tables when turned. They actively impeded what the Inquisition was required to do and then tried to veil their heresy under some naive code of honour. Too pissweak to have the courage of their convictions to actually fire first they use guile to leave the Inquisition no choice but to take that step.


----------



## Lost&Damned

no offense but i think the 2 of you should start a new thread.
also i think both sides were just as wrong and retarded as each other.
also the inquisition is paradoxical, they work against and for each other, i dont think they represent what the emperor would do anymore.


----------



## Protoss119

The Great Chapter Master Dickwaving Contest continued for days on end. Then on the sixth day, all the Chapter Masters involved woke to find that their weapons of choice, powerful relics of their chapters, were gone from the armories. In their places was a note that said,

"Thank you for this generous gift to our chapter - Blood Ravens"

And upon reading the note, as one, the Chapter Masters screamed...

*"BLOODY MAGPIES!"*

Meanwhile, in the Aurelia subsector, Chapter Master Kyras lied upon a massive pile of relics, laughing maniacally while Steel Rehn was commenced in the background...


----------



## Phoebus

Magpie_Oz said:


> There is nothing honourable about disobeying orders and passive aggressive resistance to the ones trying to carry out those orders.


Uhm... *I beg to differ.* Some of the most honorable acts in warfare have been to disobey absolutely illegal and immoral orders. Just because the Imperium is a frightening dystopia whose greatest champions are genetically modified killers doesn't mean there never needs be someone who will stand against authority in the name of what is right.



> The Space Hippies sit all high and mighty behind their false notions of "caring" for the humans but they show a spinelessness in their lack of character to do the short term bad to serve the long term good. Who knows how many billions their weakness condemned ?


Sacrificing people in the name of "the greater good" has been the tactic of the worst, most oppressive regimes since time immemorial. Any attempt to morally justify the excessively murderous and paranoid actions of the Imperium fly in the face of the paragraphs that introduce the reader to each and every 40k novel:



> _"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable."_


Did the Imperium become so cruel and bloody in a vacuum? Of course not. There are reasons for this, which the Inquisitors used to justify their decisions in "The Emperor's Gift". Problem is, just because you cite something to justify your actions _doesn't really mean your actions are justified._ The Inquisitors (and you) make it out to be as if them sacrificing millions of brave soldiers was "the hard decision", but the fact of the matter is that they made the *easy* decision - the one that makes the Imperium "the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable." When you no longer give a damn about human life, it's _easy_ to just kill off people and not worry about the consequences.



> Grimnar knew full well what the result had to be for the humans right from the very moment he called in the Grey Knights to fight the fight that was beyond his abilities. Yet call them down he did because he knew he had no other option, he condemned the populous as much as anyone else did.


No, what condemned the populace was a combination of Angron and a horde of daemons, Chaos Space Marines, etc., invading Armageddon and the Inquisition deciding that the only way to handle the witnesses of said invasion was to kill them off one way or another.

Fact of the matter is, even a handful of minutes worth of introspection could produce any number of alternative solutions. The Inquisition just showed their uniquely grimdark combination of simplicity, violence on an extravagant scale, and a fundamental lack of concern for human life. They are a great example of what happens when one's moral compass only focuses on the macro scale.

Beyond that, calling fictional entities names never struck me as a valid critique/argument. :wink:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Lost&Damned said:


> no offense but i think the 2 of you should start a new thread.


I agree.


----------



## Lost&Damned

one day Phoebus, i'll be like you and bitch slap people with logic and words.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Lost&Damned said:


> one day Phoebus, i'll be like you and bitch slap people with logic and words.


Take it to another thread and I'll show you a bitch slap :grin:


----------



## Reaper45

I always wondered if lux was a second account. I guess I know what his main account is now.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Let's keep it on the tongue in cheek, fictional situation, debate and avoid trying to make it personal shall we?


----------



## Phoebus

Seconded. We can all disagree on this fictional universe, but let's keep it classy!


----------



## LordIchor

So Helbrecht wins :victory:


----------



## Reaper45

Magpie_Oz said:


> Let's keep it on the tongue in cheek, fictional situation, debate and avoid trying to make it personal shall we?


Sorry couldn't resist. 

That being said I want proof of your words. The fluff I read makes the grey knights the bad guys.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Reaper45 said:


> Sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> That being said I want proof of your words. The fluff I read makes the grey knights the bad guys.


A particular book you read makes one or two of them bad guys, overlooking the fundamental principal that a few million must die to save many billions.


----------



## Phoebus

That's not a "fundamental principle" in exercise. That's just an excuse used by the group in question. Again, five minutes of introspective thought could arrive at solutions better than "kill them all".


----------



## Rems

Phoebus said:


> That's not a "fundamental principle" in exercise. That's just an excuse used by the group in question. Again, five minutes of introspective thought could arrive at solutions better than "kill them all".


Unfortunately though we're dealing with Chaos in this situation; the Great Enemy. Chaos corrupts and the Inquisition can't risk that corruption to spread. By letting all those soldiers go they may well allow Chaotic cults to spread and flourish. We know this is all too likely a scenario, how many people, how many worlds have been taken by the Dark Gods? 

If the inquisition had been able to eliminate all those exposed then they would have been the sole casualties; an unfortunate but necessary sacrifice for the greater good. Because of the Space Wolves interference many more died than should of, as the Inquisition was forced to hunt down those escapees and urge not just them but those they had been in contact with. The Space Wolves by their actions damned more people than were originally going to die. 

The Imperium is fighting for the survival of the human race, sometimes hard, unpalatable choices have to be made.


----------



## Phoebus

Sometimes? Sure. The automatic approach, though? Of course not.

For instance, who says the only other choice is to let them go? I'd sail them to a temperate, uninhabited planet. I'd then force them to disembark. Since when in the history of the Imperial Guard has that ever been suspect? Then, I'd force the crews of the ships to disembark on the planet as well. I'd leave nothing but servitors on there - or Inquisitorial crews.

Orders would be read to the soldiers: "Good job on vanquishing the hordes of Chaos, to include a freaking primarch. Your reward: retirement and the right to do whatever you want on a liveable planet - much better than your original prospects, which were 'fight until you die.' Here's the catch, though: any attempt to break orbit will be interpreted by the servitors aboard the ship as an excuse to initiate planetary bombardment. Have a wonderful life!"

A Guard regiment has all the equipment it needs to survive in a wilderness environment... and none of the equipment it needs to fly off a planet. Problem solved.

Heck, for added bonus (if you like your Grimdark sometimes cynically disguised as happiness), drop them off on a Maiden World. That should set the Eldar off, and their semi-idiotic attempts to reclaim their ancient playground should distract them from their latest attempt at re-directing a Waagh at a hive world so that it won't accidentally destroy one of their gardens.

That's just one idea, right off the top of my head. That Inquisitor wasn't making a hard choice? He's just so emblematic of the cruelty and oppression of the Imperium that he didn't bother to think of an alternative. :wink:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

It would be a colossal waste of resources though in terms of keeping Inquisitors. If not Inquisitor sentries, they would still need to be guarded at all times with something that isn't a robot.

Also, what if that planet turned out to have a use later on? A natural resource, a stable warp rift close to its atmosphere, etc.

And if some of the population was in fact tainted, I'm sure they'd keep a low profile while somehow alerting some Chaos warband to their location and bam, a planet of Chaos followers with equipment, etc.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

There are a million different options that you could try, however the Imperium has chosen the one detailed above by Rems. It's how we roll in the 41st Century.

Besides there are no "spare" planets and the support effort to maintain a planet in the middle of nowhere would be colossal.
We need our naval ships fighting the enemy not corralling people 
People are the cheapest resource in the Imperium.


----------



## Serpion5

So we are in agreement, Logan Grimnar wins? :laugh:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Serpion5 said:


> So we are in agreement, Logan Grimnar wins? :laugh:


Don't make me hurt you baw ! :threaten:

( :grin: )


----------



## gen.ahab

Logan Grimnar is the commander of all Imperial forces combating the 13th Black Crusade, therefore he is best. It is known.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

"Space Wolves have had numerous clashes with the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy and this has lead to the accusations of heresy and treason."

Is all I am going to say.


----------



## Rems

gen.ahab said:


> Logan Grimnar is the commander of all Imperial forces combating the 13th Black Crusade, therefore he is best. It is known.


To be fair there aren't any other big name chapter masters involved (excluding Azreal but the Unforgiven are off doing their own thing).


----------



## Chompy Bits

If it's Goto writing, Gabriel Angelos takes everyone else out with a multi-laser, right after wowing them all into submission by throwing on some terminator armor and break dancing to the beat of the astronomicon. 

In all seriousness though, I gotta go with Dante as well. The guy is a badass who's been at it for over a millennium. Pretty sure he's been in any and every type of combat situation you can think of.

I just wanna know why so much Calgar hate. Sure he has some 'apparent' pretty ridiculous feats, and _The Chapter's Due_ shows us that not all of them might be totally accurate, but people seem to forget that when he does actually throw it down in that novel he's pretty hardcore. Tigurius, while watching him, even describes his combat abilities as bordering on the supernatural.

I also think Pedro Kantor deserves a mention, considering he took on the Arch-Arsonist Snagrod, one of the oldest and most powerful Orks around, and not only beat him, but nearly ripped off his arm and sent him running. And this was after Kantor had been busy with months and months of constant fighting already.


----------



## Phoebus

Malus Darkblade said:


> It would be a colossal waste of resources though in terms of keeping Inquisitors. If not Inquisitor sentries, they would still need to be guarded at all times with something that isn't a robot.


Call it whatever you want. It doesn't have to be an Inquisitorial force. Bottom line, it's a well known fact that even escort vessels can devastate a planet's surface. If the Inquisition was willing to destroy that many vessels murdering the Guardsmen, then they can't very well call it a waste of resources to have the same ships guarding the planet.



> Also, what if that planet turned out to have a use later on? A natural resource, a stable warp rift close to its atmosphere, etc.


Those questions don't even occur to the Inquisition in a million other scenarios, so I'm not sure that you can play both angles in this one. Fact of the matter is, there's no shortage of habitable planets out there - where our galaxy in the 40 universe is concerned, anyways.



> And if some of the population was in fact tainted, I'm sure they'd keep a low profile while somehow alerting some Chaos warband to their location and bam, a planet of Chaos followers with equipment, etc.


Again, I disagree. The Imperium already takes great pains to ensure the division of forces between the Guard and the Navy. That directly translates into the (lack of) capabilities of a Guard Regiment. They have no way of transporting themselves off a planet. They have no long-range communications. They have no Astropaths.



Magpie_Oz said:


> There are a million different options that you could try, however the Imperium has chosen the one detailed above by Rems. It's how we roll in the 41st Century.


I get that. I'm just pointing out the obvious - which is that just because that's what they do, it doesn't mean it's justified.



> Besides there are no "spare" planets ...


Uhm, let's just agree to disagree on that. 40k is rife with planets that left in feral or otherwise undeveloped states for [insert random reason here]. Seriously, from the easliest editions of the fluff, it has been *qualified* that a significant percentage of the worlds of the Imperium fall under this category. I can try to find that citation for you, if you'd like. 



> and the support effort to maintain a planet in the middle of nowhere would be colossal.


No, quite the contrary. I assure you that real-world armies have been successfully foraging and hunting their way through wilderness for a good 3,000 years or so now. Never mind science fiction armies with trained doctors and laser guns. I don't anticipate anyone lifting a finger to help them once they get dropped off.

Would there be losses? Sure. Would they eventually die out? Probably, because of the seemingly low number of women in most Regiments. Either way, Swiss Regiment Robinson sounds like a much better deal than, "Surprise, explosion!!!"



> We need our naval ships fighting the enemy not corralling people
> People are the cheapest resource in the Imperium.


Or don't guard it all. Who cares? Without a means of getting off the planet or contact anyone, what's going to happen? Is Chaos going to send a fleet to pick up the retired Guardsmen? At that point, you might as well rather address the billions of other possibilities involving a million other worls that these same Inquisitors aren't able to address on a daily basis.

Bottom line, 40k is obviously Grimdark because of decisions like that. No issues there. I like Grimdark. That's how this setting should be. But let's also call a spade a spade. Just because it's Grimdark doesn't mean it's justified. Don't try to paint the easy cruel choice as being somehow difficult. When you don't give a shit about humanity, killing a bunch of humans because just a matter of giving an order and logistics.


----------



## DarthMarko

MontytheMighty said:


> For shame...
> 1) He didn't "decapitate" the Grand Master. Get your facts straight
> 2) It was hardly a fair duel. Grimnar suddenly initiated the first (and final) attack
> 
> The element of surprise was clearly on Grimnar's side. Y'know...like when the Lion knocked Leman Russ the fu** out. Is that evidence of how super-awesome the Lion is in CC? I mean, that lout Russ should've expected a blow...clearly, surprise was not a factor at all and the Lion just had a huge speed advantage


1.Yes he did (he bitch slapped him)
2. Not only that - he teleported onto a GK flagship and made a stu out of GK justicars while RUNNING IN A TERMIE ARMOR - ALONE
3. Grimnar is no.1


----------



## Magpie_Oz

@Phoebus Marooning hundreds of thousands of people in deep space and leaving them to fend for themselves, particularly with the real threat of Daemonic corruption in their midst is merely postponing their execution and turning from a quick death to a long slow exile of agony.

@DarthMarko
1. He hit him with an Axe ?
2. He didn't shoot all the Justicars, the other traitors he brought on board did.
3. Yeh, Public enemy #1



Phoebus said:


> Uhm... *I beg to differ.* Some of the most hono*u*rable acts in warfare have been to disobey absolutely illegal and immoral orders.


Name one ?


----------



## DarthMarko

Magpie_Oz said:


> @Phoebus Marooning hundreds of thousands of people in deep space and leaving them to fend for themselves, particularly with the real threat of Daemonic corruption in their midst is merely postponing their execution and turning from a quick death to a long slow exile of agony.
> 
> @DarthMarko
> 1. He hit him with an Axe ?
> 2. He didn't shoot all the Justicars, the other traitors he brought on board did.
> 3. Yeh, Public enemy #1


1. Yes (you know "which one of you whoresome fired on my ship" and then bitch slap the ward prick)
2. No ,after rampaging through them SW (Bjorn) stopped him from going further
3. Public friend No.1 - also Ecclesiarchy are No.1 heretics and they would burn in Emperor's time


----------



## Lepaca

Magpie_Oz said:


> @Phoebus Marooning hundreds of thousands of people in deep space and leaving them to fend for themselves, particularly with the real threat of Daemonic corruption in their midst is merely postponing their execution and turning from a quick death to a long slow exile of agony.
> 
> @DarthMarko
> 1. He hit him with an Axe ?
> 2. He didn't shoot all the Justicars, the other traitors he brought on board did.
> 3. Yeh, Public enemy #1
> 
> Name one ?


It is wonderful to see two of my most hated enemies going at each other! :so_happy:
(By this I of course mean the Inquisition and the Space Wolves not you two personally)

As to the orignial question: I'd bet that Calgar would Mary Sue his way to victory backed up by the unbearable cheese that is Ward.

But I'm hoping that all the Chapter Masters would unite against Draigo and make him into smooshie paste if he were to appear at this battle royale. :grin:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

You need to do a bit more research Marko


----------



## DarthMarko

Magpie_Oz said:


> You need to do a bit more research Marko


I've read EG 2 times - also I'm in the warhammer for about 15 years,read every book, and I'm pretty certain on some things

also GK did had some embarrassing loses in that battle (insert red hunters who crashed on Fenris too ), but wolves didn't went all badass - they relented on a priciple...which was lose, lose in the end...Also this is from author...Cheers


----------



## Magpie_Oz

"Logan Grimnar’s *axe* of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat,"

Not a "bitch slap" ?


"when Jarl Grimnar’s storm bolter barked a single cry. *His three Wolf Guard fired with him, each in different directions*. The explosive bolts smashed against ceramite in a chorus of detonation, preceding a moment of gruesome silence. Four knights crashed to the decking...."

Logan + 3 others ?


----------



## DarthMarko

Magpie_Oz said:


> "Logan Grimnar’s *axe* of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat,"
> 
> Not a "bitch slap" ?
> 
> 
> "when Jarl Grimnar’s storm bolter barked a single cry. *His three Wolf Guard fired with him, each in different directions*. The explosive bolts smashed against ceramite in a chorus of detonation, preceding a moment of gruesome silence. Four knights crashed to the decking...."
> 
> Logan + 3 others ?


Kysnaros tied his long blond hair into a ponytail, keeping any stray strands from his face. ‘Enough of this. The Imperium’s woes will not bide while we stand here and make superstitious promises. Chapter Master Grimnar, you will surrender as agreed, and your Wolves will stand down.’
Jarl Grimnar gave us his canine smile again, showing wet fangs. ‘That,’ he said, ‘will not be happening.’
II
Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated.
The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. *A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.*
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop.
Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain. That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.


It was a proper "bitch slap",also here is the sum of the whole battle:
GK&RH offer surrender to the SW
SW kick their arse
SW offer them surrender (in terms that they don't show their arses on Fenris,NEVER )
GK - ok + "I" plotting after


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Great, pushing copyright and totally irrelevant to the debate.


----------



## DarthMarko

Magpie_Oz said:


> Great, pushing copyright and totally irrelevant to the debate.


My point is simple : LOGAN = ULTIMATE 40k badass
Rest irrelevant...
Now go summon Draigo or something....


----------



## DarthMarko

Sorry DP - fething browser...


----------



## Reaper45

Magpie_Oz said:


> "Space Wolves have had numerous clashes with the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy and this has lead to the accusations of heresy and treason."
> 
> Is all I am going to say.


I fail to see how this is a problem? The administratum is far removed from the emperors imperium And the ecclesiarchy is the pinnacle of everything the emperor stood against.

It only makes sense that the wolves are the only chapter who still stands for what the imperium was. After all Bjorn is around to ensure they never forget.


Now why don't you go back to your ultramarine footie jammies and your grey knights bed set and just admit you're wrong.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Reaper45 said:


> ... ultramarine footie jammies ...


YOU sir go too far !

I am Salamander


----------



## Archon Dan

Let's all bare in mind that characters are written a certain way to express a point. As said 40K is grim dark and the Imperium views its populace as a resource. People are an incredibly cheap resource at that. Right and wrong from our perspective have no place in this universe. We are not faced with the threat of Chaos and cannot say how we would react if our soldiers could bring the taint home with them. From our standpoint, both sides should appear childish and perhaps that was the author's point. Many authors lace their work with messages more applicable to the readers' world than the one they created. So argue for your favorite master but stop turning this into a morality debate. All the candidates are killers and in many cases would be war criminals by our standards. 

To Magpie, there are cases where not following orders have led to noble and heroic acts. They are rare and certainly there are more cases of disobeying orders resulting in a worse situation. Unfortunately, the only cases I can currently think of where disobeying was good fall under a banned topic in these forums. 

Back on track. I have one final example for Dante, as it is no secret I support him. In his great wisdom, he has called the Blood Angel successors together on occasions and gotten them to agree unanimously to aid each other. Bare in mind that the chapters spawned from the IX Legion Astartes are not like the Ultramarines and their kin. Where Calgar need say a word and his "legion" would reassemble, the Sons is Sanguinus are quite divided. Many chapters have rivalries with each other and some(Flesh Tearers for example) openly hate their parent chapter. But Dante can still persuade them to his cause.


----------



## DarthMarko

Magpie_Oz said:


> YOU sir go too far !
> 
> I am Salamander


 No, you're not - you might be a "salamander fan" perhaps - but since the Salamanders are sympathetic towards common folk equaly like SW are - they would do the same in Armaggedon, perhaps,even go further...


----------



## Reaper45

DarthMarko said:


> No, you're not - you might be a "salamander fan" perhaps - but since the Salamanders are sympathetic towards common folk equaly like SW are - they would do the same in Armaggedon, perhaps,even go further...


The salamanders fought in the 3rd armageddon war. As I recall at helsreach they refused to follow the black templar in a suicide charge in order to defend civilians.


----------



## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras

Logan kills off Chapter Master Tu'shan with a toaster [now there's irony]. Finishes off everyone else with his tea cup?

Not so epic. I can see this novel becoming a best seller...


----------



## Phoebus

Magpie_Oz said:


> @Phoebus Marooning hundreds of thousands of people in deep space and leaving them to fend for themselves, particularly with the real threat of Daemonic corruption in their midst is merely postponing their execution ...


Depends on who you ask. Put in a similar situation, I would much rather take my chances with the equipment I am deployed to war with.

And then, let's up the ante given the context provided by the Gaunt's Ghosts novels: many Regiments are also accompanied by their "camp follower" families, to include actual spouses and children. So by all means, ask the average veteran if he'd rather that he and his family be "mercifully exploded" by a fanatical Inquisitor with a dearth of imagination... or a tough exile with the tools, know-how, and man-power needed to survive. I can tell you what the stereotypical American answer would be. :wink:



> and turning from a quick death to a long slow exile of agony.


Again, depends on your opinion. The average Regiment has trained medics, engineers, proven leaders, etc. No offense, but I think you're vastly overstating your case. It's far from "certain death or long, slow, exile of agony".


----------



## Battman

*Howl* Logan Grimnar he put the beat down on Daemon Prince Aragon (the emperors gift of something that was in). also could you count bjorn he was chapter master at one point then retired, to who ever was next


----------



## Angel of Blood

Battman said:


> *Howl* Logan Grimnar he put the beat down on Daemon Prince Aragon (the emperors gift of something that was in). also could you count bjorn he was chapter master at one point then retired, to who ever was next


Angron*. He never even met Angron actually. What he did do was call in one hundred and nine Grey Knights to meet Angron.


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## Magpie_Oz

Angel of Blood said:


> Angron*. He never even met Angron actually. What he did do was call in one hundred and nine Grey Knights to meet Angron.


Just like I said, got the GK's to do the heavy lifting then had a big sook about the consequences.


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## BlackGuard

Draigo. Mainly because I base my opinions off what I'm reading at the moment (Grey Knights Omnibus) and also because Logan Grimnar might have called in Grey Knights to face a primarch but ...

To my knowledge Draigo did rip out Mortarion's heart, carve his name in it, and leave it in his broken hands. That, assuming its both right and still in the fluff, is simply epic.


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## Gromrir Silverblade

Phoebus said:


> Call it whatever you want. It doesn't have to be an Inquisitorial force. Bottom line, it's a well known fact that even escort vessels can devastate a planet's surface. If the Inquisition was willing to destroy that many vessels murdering the Guardsmen, then they can't very well call it a waste of resources to have the same ships guarding the planet.


First off this is a bad ass piece of fluff as it shows the inherent flaws in the imperium and how far they have come from the Emperor's ideal. Do they need to be like this to survive, who knows? If they tried to save every possibly tainted guardsman would the Imperium survive, I can't say.

Bottom lines are these:
The Space Wolves try to save humanity.

Humanity is grouped under the Imperium.

Right or wrong the Imperium has S.O.P's (standard operating procedure) for dealing with this kind of thing.

If every chapter went around doing their own thing all the time humanity wouldn't last very long. Regardless of honour (and no I will spell it in English, silly Google spell checker), or duty or the right action, united they stand, fractured they fall.

If you don't like what the Imperium does, go rogue or join the Tau.


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## Voicesinmyhead

Magpie_Oz said:


> It is laughable to suggest that anyone other than the Son of Vulkan the Honoured Chapter Master Tu'Shan of the Salamanders would prevail in any trial you would care to submit.
> 
> Even Commander Dante says as much
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tu`Shan#.UOPKoeSsh8E
> 
> While Dante is without doubt without peer, Tu'Shan is much younger yet has a wise head on those young shoulders.


I am inclined to agree. Also he puts the safety of the imperium of mans citizens first. Salamanders are the most awesome loyalist chapter IMO.


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## Voicesinmyhead

BlackGuard said:


> Draigo. Mainly because I base my opinions off what I'm reading at the moment (Grey Knights Omnibus) and also because Logan Grimnar might have called in Grey Knights to face a primarch but ...
> 
> To my knowledge Draigo did rip out Mortarion's heart, carve his name in it, and leave it in his broken hands. That, assuming its both right and still in the fluff, is simply epic.


 . Sanguinius killed a bloodthirster with some difficulty. So Primarchs are stronger then bloodthirsters in "regular" humanish form. Yet draigo owned Mortarion... a Daemon prince primarch... Maybe the emperor should just die already and let Draigo lead lol. Seriously though, Draigo besting a Daemon Prince Primarch is flat out ridiculous.


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## darkreever

BlackGuard said:


> To my knowledge Draigo did rip out Mortarion's heart, carve his name in it, and leave it in his broken hands. That, assuming its both right and still in the fluff, is simply epic.


Well then your knowledge is quite a bit off.

Draigo did not rip out Mortarion's heart and he did not farve his name in it. He simply battled the primarch, beat him down, and carved the name of the previous grandmaster (who Mortarion who had just killed after fighting) into the heart.

Though I do love how people go at that one as him being so powerful. There is no mention of where that battle took place, for all anyone knows it was on some world where the veil between material and warp was simply thin. In that case, a powerful superhuman armed with anti daemon gear fought a daemon primarch who had just killed another powerful superhuman armed with anti daemon gear.

Its like saying the Grey Knights who fought Angron did so at the height of his power..


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## Shattertheirsky

Just gonna chuck it out there.... Jubal Khan??

Fast, tactical, probably on some fast-as jetbike/bike that he can ride.
The rest would have trouble catching him.
Claim to fame: Trashing an ork brigade without them even firing a shot


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## Khorne's Fist

Grimnar and Dante are the only 2 worthy of the title. Both have commanded massive campaigns the result of which the future of the Imperium may have depended on. By all current fluff they have been kicking ass and taking names for centuries longer than any other current chapter master, and thus would be held in awe and highest regard by the young whipper snappers lagging behind.

While I am an unapologetic SW fanboy, I don't think I could call between either of them for the title though.


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## Stephen_Newman

I am throwing a new name in here. 

I nominate Lord Tyberos the Red Wake of the Space Shar... I mean Charcharadons! 
When you have a chapter that is designed to fight over marine chapters and said chapter leaves other loyalist marine chapters almost shitting themselves says something to me about their reputation.

Also throw in Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs for similar reasons.


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## Protoss119

Stephen_Newman said:


> I am throwing a new name in here.
> 
> I nominate Lord Tyberos the Red Wake of the Space Shar... I mean Charcharadons!
> When you have a chapter that is designed to fight over marine chapters and said chapter leaves other loyalist marine chapters almost shitting themselves says something to me about their reputation.
> 
> Also throw in Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs for similar reasons.


Fuck yeah. I second both of these, Tyberos on account on being a rapetastic murder machine, Moloc on account of pissing off the Ultramarines and their fellows and not giving a damn.


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## Magpie_Oz

Cursed 21st founding and 23rd founding ? oh pl-ease


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## Battman

Stephen_Newman said:


> I am throwing a new name in here.
> 
> I nominate Lord Tyberos the Red Wake of the Space Shar... I mean Charcharadons!
> When you have a chapter that is designed to fight over marine chapters and said chapter leaves other loyalist marine chapters almost shitting themselves says something to me about their reputation.
> 
> Also throw in Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs for similar reasons.


On thing Tyberos is a Captain isnt he? Just commanding the Charcharadons in the badab war maybe acting Chapter master or not even that thinking about the story he is just a liaison with the inquisitor legaite


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## Stephen_Newman

Battman said:


> On thing Tyberos is a Captain isnt he? Just commanding the Charcharadons in the badab war maybe acting Chapter master or not even that thinking about the story he is just a liaison with the inquisitor legaite


Kind of. None of the Astartes on the loyalist side are sure. It is hinted and referred in his fluff that he is likely to be the Chapter Master as well as being able to take Honour Guards in game. However if it turned out he was not then how psychopathic IS the REAL Chapter Master?


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## Battman

You'd be right there actually what happens if he is actually the most calm of a chapter of nutcases that why he's the liaison? I thnk that's an interesting idea


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## BlackGuard

darkreever said:


> Well then your knowledge is quite a bit off.
> 
> Draigo did not rip out Mortarion's heart and he did not farve his name in it. He simply battled the primarch, beat him down, and carved the name of the previous grandmaster (who Mortarion who had just killed after fighting) into the heart.
> 
> Though I do love how people go at that one as him being so powerful. There is no mention of where that battle took place, for all anyone knows it was on some world where the veil between material and warp was simply thin. In that case, a powerful superhuman armed with anti daemon gear fought a daemon primarch who had just killed another powerful superhuman armed with anti daemon gear.
> 
> Its like saying the Grey Knights who fought Angron did so at the height of his power..


Lol. Calm down there tiger. If it makes you feel any better, then I apologise for being wrong.


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## MontytheMighty

Stephen_Newman said:


> I nominate Lord Tyberos the Red Wake of the Space Shar... I mean Charcharadons!
> When you have a chapter that is designed to fight over marine chapters and said chapter leaves other loyalist marine chapters almost shitting themselves says something to me about their reputation.
> 
> Also throw in Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs for similar reasons.


One thing I couldn't stand about the generally good Forge World books is how they blatantly wank some chapters over others. 

There's no reason for Minotaurs, Carcharadons, and Executioners to be as superior to other marines as they're portrayed to be. Apparently, the authours had a hard-on for these chapters and decided to make them these Mary Sue-ish anti-Astartes mysterious bad asses who steamroll marines of other chapters. Quite lame if you ask me


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## Lux

Are the Carcharodons a successor chapter to the Night Lords? I only ask because of how savage and brutal they are in combat, in combination with the fact that they all have pure liquid black eyes with deathlike pale skin.


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## Angel of Blood

Whilst I don't know the Carcharadons founding Legion/Chapter, it wouldn't be the Night Lords. All of the traitor legions gene stock was destroyed due to the Heresy and the obvious reasons. That and with the Night Lords well on there way to renegade status before the Heresy even began, they would probably be one of the least likely Legions to be founded from.

With the White Skin and Black eyes though, I would speculate that they are founded from the Raven Guard.


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## Lux

I thought they still use/d traitor primarch gene stock, or at the very least did not destroy it but kept it locked up?

Night Lords Gene seed is noted as being one of the most pure, if not the most pure of gene seed out of any primarch as well as its extreme resistance to the warp and mutation even after all these thousands of years.

My whole point is, seems a waste not to utilize the traitor gene stock to make new chapters that could help you.


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## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> I thought they still use/d traitor primarch gene stock, or at the very least did not destroy it but kept it locked up?
> 
> Night Lords Gene seed is noted as being one of the most pure, if not the most pure of gene seed out of any primarch as well as its extreme resistance to the warp and mutation even after all these thousands of years.
> 
> My whole point is, seems a waste not to utilize the traitor gene stock to make new chapters that could help you.


That's nice but it doesn't jive with what we know about how the Imperium views traitor geneseed 

NL geneseed _might_ be resistant to mutation (I say _might_ because NL raptors are highly mutated), but in the eyes of the Imperium, it's prone to producing mentally unstable traitors/renegades

Anyway, "pale skin and black eyes" sounds more like RG


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## Lux

I don't think the geneseed produces traitors, rather their environment, circumstance, and upbringing does.

I see no reason why a chapter founded on Curze geneseed would turn traitor when chapters founded on Ultramarine primarch geneseed has.

I think it just has to do with their environment, not from who it comes from. Afterall all the primarchs were "pure" in the beginning.


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## Angel of Blood

I think your wildly underestimating how paranoid the Imperium can be. They aren't going to take the chance.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> I think your wildly underestimating how paranoid the Imperium can be. They aren't going to take the chance.


Ah I see, have their ever been any chapters founded on traitor primarch geneseed that we the readers know about?


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## spanner94ezekiel

Blood Ravens are supposedly Thousand Sons.


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## Angel of Blood

No, nothing conclusive or stated. There is a lot of speculation on the Blood Ravens, some will even tell you that it's outright stated. It isn't anywhere however. Despite all the little hints and nods you see or want to see, I still don't buy it. I don't think the Imperium would use any of the traitors gene stock and the Thousand Sons gene seed in particular is meant to be devastatingly unstable and rife with mutation, yet the Blood Ravens don't seem to have any more than usual.


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## soonergold

Angel of Blood said:


> I think your wildly underestimating how paranoid the Imperium can be. They aren't going to take the chance.


On the flip side, we don't really know? The high lords allow many things that are against what the Emperor intended in the name of the Emperor. You have 8 foot tall super humans running around, do you really think they haven't rolled the dice on occasion? It is absolutely more logical and possible that they would attempt a lot with traitor geneseed. Why wouldn't you? If you are wrong, I still have numbers on my side to squash it.

The IOM weighs currency in numbers, I have more than you.


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## BlackGuard

I think the real fear would come from if the Chapter ever learned what it was. Once one of the Traitor Legions learned of Chapter's being of its gene-seed it may attempt to particularly destroy it (and the Imperium cannot afford to protect Chapters) or in the worst case show it what it is. At which point their pride would be devestated and they would feel lied to and thus the doors to heresy open. 

The Imperium does weight things in numbers most of the time but it cringes everytime a Chapter falls from grace and goes heretical cause the devestation and ruin it will bring to the Imperium is usually in the form of a raiding warband, which tends to be hard to crush with numbers. Warbands usually strike at seemingly random planets/spaceports/asteroids, causing great damage before either leaving or fortifying themselves which takes countless Imperial resources to purge them -- assuming they don't have some way out and manage to escape and cause the cycle again.

Or you run the risk of the Abyssal Crusade syndrome. If that Saint, whose name I cannot recall, were to do what she did but to Traitor Gene-seed chapters it would hand Chaos 30,000 more traitor legionnaires, from their own gene-seed.


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## MontytheMighty

Really dumb how FW has these pet chapters they're intent on elevating above other chapters.


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## Malus Darkblade

Two year old thread mate.


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## SoL Berzerker

If we are talking a progressive 1 vs 1 tournament of all the Chapter Masters, I would probably give this to Tyberos, The Red Wake. I'm going to compare him to Angron. It was always questionable as to if Angron could best Horus or Sanguinius in single combat, even though I would say Horus and Sanguinius were the better swordsman. The rage and unpredictable nature of an enemy is easy to counter, but when an enemy has both of those traits AND is highly skilled, he can match fighters of greater skill. 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyberos

However, if we are talking about a free-for-all fight with everyone in a single pit, then I would give the fight to Kayvaan Shrike, who is in fact the new Chapter Master of the Raven Guard. Shrike would most certainly use stealth and precision to the best possible effect in such a fight. 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kayvaan_Shrike



EDIT: Hahaha, just saw the most recent post about this being a two year thread. I read the first couple pages not looking at the date and then posted.


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## ntaw

At least a lot of the people who were talking on this thread are still active on Heresy. 

My vote lies with Dante. What other Chapter Master attacks at AP2/I6/S6 (I7/S7 on the charge)? Don't worry other guys, being murderated by the oldest living Space Marine is an honour even if you're dead before you get to attack.


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## darkreever

If we count still living ex chapter masters than Bjorn comes to mind. Albeit at a lower initiative buy higher strength.


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## Beaviz81

darkreever said:


> If we count still living ex chapter masters than Bjorn comes to mind. Albeit at a lower initiative buy higher strength.


Who hired you to be a MOD? I just wonders.


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## Battman

As to your comment, Bjorn the fell handed took over the leadership of the legion when leman russ left, therefor technically he is a chapter master. Well before i think he stepped down when he was entombed in the dreadnaught


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## darkreever

Beaviz81 said:


> Who hired you to be a MOD? I just wonders.


Rather strange way to ask, I mean a six month old thread and your adding nothing to it..

To answer you, that would be Jezlad who made me a member of the staff and then Jez again who made me a senior staff member.

In the future, you can PM something like this.



Battman said:


> As to your comment, Bjorn the fell handed took over the leadership of the legion when leman russ left, therefor technically he is a chapter master. Well before i think he stepped down when he was entombed in the dreadnaught


That's why I mentioned him last year, but only if we are counting former chapter masters.


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## Battman

Yeah just was clarifying your point thats what i thought Bevis was on about. but more likely the thread necromancy as you've mentioned.


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## Titan84

Dante hands down.

But honestly Mephiston would wreck every chapter master easily. He could probably take on 4 or 5 of them at a time and still win.


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## Gorthol

Dante is badass! No question for me!!

Out of interest is it bad joojoo to breathe life into an old thread like this?


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## Fallen

As long as it contributes to the thread its usually fine - use your own discretion if you think Necro-ing a thread is positive to the forum or not.

If the thread is no longer relevant to the game or the answer has already been provided, usually best to leave it alone.


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## ntaw

As long as it's a vote for Dante it's still a relevant post :laugh:


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## Gorthol

@ntaw well I'll rest easy now then haha 😂


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