# What's the point in NOT giving ork Boyz shootas?



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Hey guys

Not sure where to place this, so just put it here...

Basically, my question is concerned with kitting out Ork Boyz. They come standard with a choppa and slugga. Now, what I wanna know is, why _wouldn't_ you give them a shoota?

As far as I know, their CC wouldn't change. And instead of a slugga you get a much superior weapon. 

In short, they would still have the same WS, S, T, A, I if they have choppa/slugga or if they have a shoota. So is there any reason _not_ to give them shootas?

Thanks

Jack.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

The main one that comes to mind is points, though I'm not sure what the points cost is. Another might be for fluff reasons. A final one might have to do with their being too few shootas in the ork packs.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

They are a free upgrade!

Ignore fluff in your reasonings, I wanna look at it purely from a gaming standpoint  Should ahve said that my bad.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

because you prefer the look of sluggas and choppas?, looks are a gaming standpoint.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> because you prefer the look of sluggas and choppas?, looks are a gaming standpoint.


Hmm, I guess that would be a reason for some people. 

In terms of damage output, or just giving them better weapons.

I am correct in thinking that giving them a shoota doesn't change their CC ability yes? 

If so, then giving them a shoota which has better stats that a slugga for free sounds like it should be done competitivly! Am i making sense at all? lol


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Shoota boyz have less attacks and don't seem to last as long in combat as Slugga boyz.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> Shoota boyz have less attacks and don't seem to last as long in combat as Slugga boyz.


Could you give me a referrence please mate?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

of course you could just go 50/50 on slugga and shoota boys, you'll get flak from "competetive" gamers, but hell to them.


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## 18827 (Oct 23, 2009)

choppas are a cc weapon so give you a +1 attack, so you get 3 attacks and you get 4 attacks per boy on the charge.

with shootas you get the standard 2 attacks and 3 on the charge


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Oh ok. Didn't know that. Thanks mate!

Now, does that apply to every CC weapon? Even for differetn races (sorry been a while since I last played)

So, say a Space marine captain has 3A, if you give him a power sword does he get 4? If not, then I'm a bit confused :S lol


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## OrkByTheGraceOfGork (Jun 9, 2010)

What Gunn said. Shootas for Footsloggin and Sluggas/Choppas for transports.

OBGOG


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Ultra111 said:


> Oh ok. Didn't know that. Thanks mate!
> 
> Now, does that apply to every CC weapon? Even for differetn races (sorry been a while since I last played)
> 
> So, say a Space marine captain has 3A, if you give him a power sword does he get 4? If not, then I'm a bit confused :S lol


The Power Sword is his first CC Weapon therefore already incorproated into his base A of 3.
If you give him a Lightning Claw or Thunder Hammer as well as the Power Sword then he gets an extra 1A.

SGMAlice


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> The Power Sword is his first CC Weapon therefore already incorproated into his base A of 3.
> If you give him a Lightning Claw or Thunder Hammer as well as the Power Sword then he gets an extra 1A.
> 
> SGMAlice


Unfortunately, he does not, as that is considered 2 complex weapons, and does not get an extra attack.


OP, the rule is:

You get base attacks with whatever weapon you are carrying. (Ork boy has 2) If you have 2 close combat weapons, you get an extra attack. A pistol weapon counts as an extra close combat weapon. So your Ork boy, armed with a CCW and a Pistol (His choppa and slugga), gets an additional attack. (Bringing his attacks to 3)

If you give the Ork Boy a shoota, he looses his two CCW's, and thus only gets 2 attacks.


For more information, see page 37 of your Big Rule Book.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

> If you give him a Lightning Claw or Thunder Hammer as well as the Power Sword then he gets an extra 1A.


Can you do that?! 

Please give me a page reference in the BRB I can look this shit up! 

EDIT - Thanks Gally!


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

gally912 said:


> Unfortunately, he does not, as that is considered 2 complex weapons, and does not get an extra attack.
> 
> 
> OP, the rule is:
> ...


I know this, It was merely to demonstrate the addition of a second weapon. Possibly done slighty wrong...  ah well 
@Ultra: No you can't, As Gally said; its two complex weapons. Though i am sure i've seen it done somewhere... ah well

SGMAlice


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> Can you do that?!
> 
> Please give me a page reference in the BRB I can look this shit up!
> 
> EDIT - Thanks Gally!


See the bottom right of page 42 for different weapons. You need 2 Lightning Claws/Powerfists/Thunderhammers to get the extra attack.


@SGMAlice, 
I figured that, just though I'd clarify. And posting simultaneously makes me sound like a jerk, lol


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

but really, there is not reason to not take shoota boyz. Being assault weapons, you can still charge after firing them and the additional shot makes up for the loss of one attack. Especially when you are out of charge range.


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## ArchangelPaladin (Jul 7, 2010)

> If you give him a Lightning Claw or Thunder Hammer as well as the Power Sword then he gets an extra 1A.


That's not right. I don't have by rule book on me but check the section on weapon types in the assault chapter and then you see that power fist or thunder hammers don't confer an extra attack unless you have two of the same weapon. So if you give him a Power sword and TH then you only get to use the Thunder Hammer and the power sword offers no benefit. 

You can however replace his bolter with a power sword and keep his bolt pistol to get the extra attack, and then even the extra attack from the pistol ignores armor.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

gally912 said:


> @SGMAlice,
> I figured that, just though I'd clarify. And posting simultaneously makes me sound like a jerk, lol


Yeah thanks :gimmefive: I boo boo'd a little methinks XD

@ArchangelPaladin: We have been through this, Read all post in future please.

SGMAlice


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## Balord (Sep 22, 2010)

personally, i LIKE the shoota. it still gives you 2 shots at 5 bs, but if you have a maxed out unit, thats a LOT of shots, and so a LOT of chances to wound. even if one turn it doesn't shoot so well, you can still charge with either a- that same unit or b- the other-unit-of-boys-that-you-took-in-case-of-a-fail-turn-like-this....
in other words, big risk, big reward.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Don't you mean BS 2? They need to roll 5+ to hit.

I think you guys may have just opened my eyes with CC weapons, but that is only if I got this right...
In the Sm codex it says replace bolter and/or chainsword. Now does this mean I can give him 2 power swords (one replacing the chainsword, the other replacing the bolter) and get the extra attack? Or not.

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I ALWAYS take choppas and sluggas, even in Footsloggers. You'd be surprised how many times those extra cc attacks saved our asses! I make them run anyway, so I don't see the need in taking off an extra attack for a gun we won't even use.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Ultra, you COULD take both powerswords, but why..? Your paying points to get the same effect. So the second is useless. What your missing there is that it doesnt replace his *Bolt Pistol* thus, 2 CCW, so +1 attack


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## Evil beaver2 (Feb 3, 2009)

gally912 said:


> See the bottom right of page 42 for different weapons. You need 2 Lightning Claws/Powerfists/Thunderhammers to get the extra attack.


Wait, Is there actually a unit that can use two thunder hammers?!?! If there is, someone tell me because I need it.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Evil beaver2 said:


> Wait, Is there actually a unit that can use two thunder hammers?!?! If there is, someone tell me because I need it.



what the hell would two thunder hammers acoomplish? Use your brains people.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Evil beaver2 said:


> Wait, Is there actually a unit that can use two thunder hammers?!?! If there is, someone tell me because I need it.


Any Vanilla Marine Chapter Master or Captain can take two thunder hammers, assuming they take Terminator Armor.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> what the hell would two thunder hammers acoomplish? Use your brains people.


How about reroll your missed hits?  Vulkan He'Stan. The solution to all your Flamer/melta/Thunder Hammer needs!


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Yes, but Vulkan gives you that. NOT dual hammers. They dont double your hammer rape, or add a buff you wouldnt get for cheaper or free, I.E. Bolt pistol


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

While having no overt benefits; It would certainly look cool 
...ooo... Spare Captain... ooo... two spare Thunder Hammers...*Light Bulb Over Head!*

This hobby is about fun and imagination too you know. I regularily create models that would be of little to no use within the game.

SGMAlice


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Oh I know. But if you actually *read* the posts to which I responded, 

"Can you really do that?" Cause I need it" I highly doubt he was talking about his local modelling comp.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

I have read this entire thread actually, and if you 'read it', You will find that i started the whole '2 Thunder Hammers' thing in the first place  my poor wording is to blame.


> I highly doubt he was talking about his local modelling comp.


Probably not but you seem to be getting just a little too irate at it.

SGMAlice


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Not really, but its a pretty obvious answer to a useless question.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Two thunder-hammers gives you +1 A for two CCW, which you can't get with a thunderhammer from any other source. No pistol, no CCW- nothing gives you an extra attack with a tunderhammer other than a second.

So, if you took a Captain with Two TH along with vulkan, you would get 5 TH attacks on a charge that would re-roll to hit.

As opposed to 4 attacks from having just one TH.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

On topic....

Personally i like Choppa/Sluggas better for my Battlewagons.

More often than not im declaring my Waaagh on turn 2, and need that fleet move to get into close combat.
If i cant shoot, then taking Shootas will considerably drop the effectiveness of the unit by quite a bit.

If i am able to have a round of shooting, Shootas will allow me to have 1 extra shooting attack, but 1 less attack in close combat.
With both being S4, the only real difference is that the close combat attack will hit most things on 4's or 3's, where as the shooting attack will be hitting on 5's.
While it looks like a no-brainer to take Slugga/Choppa Boyz when you look at it this way, you also have to take into account that you will likely be striking last in combat, and being able to get that extra attack in the shooting phase can kill a couple of models thus meaning you will suffer less casualties in combat.
If feel that this pretty well balances out, unless you are attacking something like TH/SS Termies in which case Choppas are much more effective.


However, as far as Orks on foot go, it should be Shootas all the way.
Sure you are going to be running the first few turns, but being able to sit on an objective late-game with a 24" threat range with a LOT of shots is quite effective.


But basically, Choppa/Slugga in assault-based transport units, and Shoota in foot sloggers or "drive-by" mech lists.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks for all the help guys, your answers have been very helpful to me


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

This thread has far too many posts in it for such a simple question, caused by a lot of people being wrong about the rules for CCW.
Basically, you have the rulebook (presumably), someone should have given you a reference in the first few posts, you should have read that, and understood how it works, since the rules are pretty damn easy to understand.

There are 3 kinds of Close Combat Weapons.
Standard, which confer no special bonuses, just your base S/I/A etc. All Pistols count as a standard CCW.
Special, which confer some kind of special bonus, these include Power Weapons, poisoned weapons, Whichblades, etc. Most of these are specific to a codex.
And then there's the 'heavy' weapons, which are like special weapons, but cannot be used in combination with a CCW of a different type. Note that they aren't necessarily heavy, but it's just a convenient label for this explanation. These include Power Fists, Lightning Claws, and Thunder Hammers; not exclusively, there are codex-specific ones as well.

There are two 'sizes' of weapons.
1-handed: These can be used in combination with another CCW to grant a bonus attack in melee (not in the profile of the model, you add it on to that).
2-handed: These cannot be used in combination with another CCW, you cannot get the bonus attack for having 2CCW if you're using one of these.


The rules for gaining the bonus attack are as follows.
If you have 2 standard CCW, you gain the bonus attack.
If you have 1 standard and 1 special weapon, you gain the bonus attack.
If you have 2 of the same special weapon, you gain the bonus attack, but you would never actually do this as an option (since it's a waste of points, a pistol does just as well).
If you have 2 different special or heavy weapons, you cannot gain the bonus attack, even if you have a spare CCW; this is a penalty for having so many fancy gadgets, in a way.
A heavy weapon can never be used to gain the bonus attack unless you have 2 of the same heavy weapon, like a pair of Lightning Claws, or a pair of Power Fists (like Shrike and Calgar, respectively).


While writing this, I realised that Calgar technically doesn't get the bonus for having 2 fists, because he also has a Power Sword, and so he has two different special weapons, preventing him from gaining the 2CCW bonus.
LOL, NICE ONE GW!


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Winterous said:


> While writing this, I realised that Calgar technically doesn't get the bonus for having 2 fists, because he also has a Power Sword, and so he has two different special weapons, preventing him from gaining the 2CCW bonus.
> LOL, NICE ONE GW!


Actually, he has a Pair of Powerfists (as per the description of "Gauntlets of Ultramar") and a power sword.

Meaning he can choose between using 2 powerfists, a power first and powersword, or just the powersword. 

The first option gives him the +1 Attack, the second option gives him no bonus whatsoever, and the third lets him strike with a power weapon at his initiative.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dual Thunder Hammers is the only true way to run your Death Company. 30 Death Company with Jump Packs, Dual Wielding Thunder Hammers lead by Lemartes. A snip at 3000 points. 120 S9 Thunderhammer attacks on the Charge, rerolling to hit and wound. 

Anyone who says this is not an AWESOME use of points is a liar. 

Also the rules for Calgar are boned, no one know what he does as he doesn't have two special close combat weapons, he has three. You could say having three counts as having 2 but then having 2 could just as easily count as having 1 so why bother with the rules. 

Aramoro


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> what the hell would two thunder hammers acoomplish? Use your brains people.


+1A and +10 to badass rating


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## Evil beaver2 (Feb 3, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> +1A and +10 to badass rating


My thoughts exactly.



Aramoro said:


> Dual Thunder Hammers is the only true way to run your Death Company. 30 Death Company with Jump Packs, Dual Wielding Thunder Hammers lead by Lemartes. A snip at 3000 points. 120 S9 Thunderhammer attacks on the Charge, rerolling to hit and wound.
> 
> Anyone who says this is not an AWESOME use of points is a liar.
> Aramoro


Blood angels, here I come!!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

gally912 said:


> Actually, he has a Pair of Powerfists (as per the description of "Gauntlets of Ultramar") and a power sword.
> 
> Meaning he can choose between using 2 powerfists, a power first and powersword, or just the powersword.
> 
> The first option gives him the +1 Attack, the second option gives him no bonus whatsoever, and the third lets him strike with a power weapon at his initiative.


Oh wait, reading over it again; it's a little poorly written, but yeah, that's how it works.
Silly me, I read it as: if you HAVE two different special weapons, you can't get the bonus.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Unfortunately Calgar doesn't have two special weapons, he has 3 special weapons so he is eaten by a Grue. 

Aramoro


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Winterous said:


> This thread has far too many posts in it for such a simple question, caused by a lot of people being wrong about the rules for CCW.
> Basically, you have the rulebook (presumably), someone should have given you a reference in the first few posts, you should have read that, and understood how it works, since the rules are pretty damn easy to understand.
> 
> There are 3 kinds of Close Combat Weapons.
> ...


Perfect answer mate, I understand fully now. Thanks, +rep for the well thought-out answer 



Evil beaver2 said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> Blood angels, here I come!!


After reading that I'm thinking the same lol


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> Perfect answer mate, I understand fully now. Thanks, +rep for the well thought-out answer


Heaps welcome :>
Just remember, I was wrong about the two different special weapons thing; you can't use two separate special weapons TOGETHER, but having two different ones doesn't restrict you gaining the bonus with a proper weapon combination.


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