# Points limits: Exact or close?



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

When you're playing someone, do you mind if their list is over by a couple points?

I've never bothered with tourney play, but I assume they're rather strict about it, so how about you? I've found myself making lists these days (thanks to the lack of 'filler wargear') that I either have to give up 5 or 10 points (and be under) or hope the enemy doesn't mind me coming up with 1502 points...it's frustrating!

I know I don't care so long as it's within 5 points or so, but what about everyone else?


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Most people I play with dont seem to mind my list is say 10 points over. The problem is due to the cost of upgrades now there is nothing I can take out that is 10 points so I would need to redo my list to be under. But as I said most people dont mind as long as its not massively over or if they look at my list and see someone has a twinlinked bolter which is 10 points and I am 10 points over. As a twinlinked bolter is not crucial to a game it is just filler they will ask if I could remove it to be on the point limit.
If I play against someone who is over the limit I wont mind as long as its around 10 points over when you get any more than that, I am sure there is something you could take out.


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## NurglingStomper (Jan 31, 2009)

As long as my opponent doesn't go past ten points then who cares. It's just a game after all. As long as we have fun. Besides after I beat him I can then say you had _extra_ points and I still beat you... bwahahaha :laugh:


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Aye, a few points doesn't matter to us, the only thing we have is the points must not be able to be removed by simple wargear removal. Thus our lists are rarely more than 5pts over anyway if at all. 

I generally aim to be spot on, LVix with her Tyranids is nearly always spot on as she can point the nids down to the last point. I think the worst total I've ever had was 9pts over as the cheapest wargear item I could remove was 10pts.


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

I and my club go on the assumption that if you're going to give someone a ten point leeway, you might as well give them the ten points as part of the limit.

Most games I don't care, but we have a player in the club who is infamous for not knowing the rules and being over the limit, grossly. Last time I played him the limit was 1000 points, I brought 1000 and since we have random draw and a list required, we played and afterwards I looked at his list and found it to be 1085 points. Now, I'm pretty sure that would qualify as sketchy in any book.

Either way, the main idea I get is that both players have an agreed upon limit, leeway or no, and they use as much of that limit as possible, trusting that the other player will abide by that limit. Parody is what is important.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

We had a similar topic in the Fantasy section recently, it is surprising how views vary. I personally aim to hit spot on, but up to 5 points out is no problem as far as I am concerned. This is the norm with my opponents as well.

If you know people will go a few points over with awkward points costs, you can always have an idea of something to bump your points up a little to match them. That way it is 'fair' all round, let's face it unless in a tournament the points limit is pretty arbitrary anyway, for all it matters you could play a 1507 points match without noticing the difference.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Your thread actually got me thinking about it in 40k, Squeek...that and bloody Sgt Telion already having a cammo cloak and mesisng up my points on a scout list I was toying with.

I always aim for spot on or under, but sometimes you just can't help but be a couple points over, especially if you're a symmetry freak like me. Unless the squad has a special purpose, I don't like having two units with wargear or numbers that aren't the same. 

It just seems sloppy to me to have, say, 2 assault squads, one with 1 flamer and 1 with 2...that just bugs the hell out of me. Either they both have 1 or they both have 2.

Yes, I'm even like this for orks. My trukk mobs are always the same unless one has a specific purpose and reason to be different. I'm just weird like that.

But still, I draw my own personal line at 5 points or less. If you're at +10 there's bound to be something that can go. If someone shows up with +10 I'll still play them but I aim for +5 or less and appreciate when others do the same


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

When we all play together, we normally don't allow over 10 pts over the limit. But when all of the group gets together (the more strict ones), then it's agreed that it won't go over 5 pts, they believe 'even 5 is pushing it'. I too believe that 5 is pushing it, and I get disappointed if I have a list that even goes one point over. When playing with lists, I prefere to have my lists right on or below, never above. 

However, a couple of times I have gone over 10 pts. Basically when I was trying out the Deathwing (with a command squad, ahh that was a good battle).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm a complete bastard with this. I agree to play a game that follows rules. One of those rules is a point limit. By challenging me, you are agreeing to a set points value. If you go over, why bother playing the game if you can't follow rules you've set down.

Friendly or not, Fun game or not, I'll request that you play a list exact or under. You are 1 Pts over, and the cheapest thing that you can lose in your list is 10pts? Tough Titties. It goes.

You can always make a list in the limit. Otherwise, it's not a legal list. If you're playing a 1500 points game, but play with 10pts over, why the fuck isn't the Limit 1510? Makes more sense that way, because by definition, limit is well, the Limit.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

I say spot on or under. My solution is to always play games at 1490...but you can go up to 10 points over. :so_happy:


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Friendly games are supposed to be just that; friendly. No point arguing before you've even rolled any dice.

I think we normally play to about 1% over; i.e. 1500 = 15 points over, although it's not normally a problem as the group I play with are all good at making lists almost spot-on.


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## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

I aim to be spot on,. but at the local shop there is normally a 5 point window of being over. 

I am shour we have all made a list at least once that ended up being just over the max with nothing we could remove that would put us back under and make us have to go back and relook at everything. 

And I don't think 5 points has ever won anyone the game ^^

The most difference was last Monday when a m8 and I where playing his first game, didn't count points so he ended up way over (by about 500 points) but it was ok because he needed the learn how to run his units and I don't mind taking a loss when it works to encourage new players to keep playing because they just "Beat up that old vet" ^^


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There is always something that you can take out that still allows your army to be legal, unless it's a 200pt Army.

Still, there is a difference between encouraging new players to join, or a fun game, and then on the other hand, there's a game in which it's pick up and go.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

If it's a casual game we usually play +5 points - Generally though we try to stay spot on or under. As some of us are tourney players, your lists generally need to be spot on or under so I strive for that. I mean if you 5 points over and your cheapest wargear is 10 points, whats wrong with being 5 points under for once?


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

5pts or 10pts and make a HUGE difference to a list. Some items, units and wargear can totally change an army.

e.g. I have a 1,500pt list that is exactly right, would you mind if I upgrade my Destroyer Lord so he has a Warscythe for 10pts and can get that extra AP dice vs your tanks and dreds and can ignore all your saves in CC (even inv. saves)?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Personally, if its no more than five over I won't bat an eyelash or say a thing; but if its any more than that I will say something especially if its over ten. Like bishop5 I used to do the 1% leeway, rounding up for those odd point totals, but felt that anything over ten was just to much.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

really and trully you should be on or under the points limit, otherwise the criteria of the challenge haven't been met. but that's easily resolved by saying that the points limit for the game is 1510pts, rather than 1500pts.

i believe it was Confrontation that used to work on a system that said no player was entitled to go over the points limit by more than half their cheapest model, which seems entirely fair. 10pts might not seem like much, but when it was the extra needed to by an Obliterator then its not very sporting (not that i'm suggesting an Oblit is 20pts, just illustrating the point).


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Personally I'd say it depends on what codex your opponent is using. I would let a BA player go +5 points over because their codex is an absoloute bitch when when it comes to building a list to an exact point value, where as on the other hand if someone was playing a BT army I would be less inclined to be as generous, as it actually quite easy to write a list that falls within a set points value. Having said that though, I've managed to write two DA lists, one at 1500 pts the other at 2000ts, and both have come out at exact point values to avoid this problem and it wasn't that hard to do, just took a lot of shuffling things around until I got there. So really you can write lists to an exact point value, it might not be easy, but it can be done.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

This does seem like a no brainer to me; it's a point *limit*. What's the point of a limit if everyone is going to go over it? What's the point of a line marking out of bounds if peoples feet go over by an inch? Are we just going to start ignoring football players who casually run a foot off the line when heading for the end zone? 

5pts can make a huge deal; not because it's 5 points, but because those 5 might be a small portion of 100pts, which makes more of a difference. If I have enough spares to squeeze another obliterator, there's an issue.

And of course, if you can't abide by a points limit, what else will you 'fudge' the rules on ever so slightly in your favor?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Reev seems to be of the same mind as me. Five or less and it doesn't even matter, ten and I start asking if there's anything they can drop, but I won't complain if they don't. More than that and there's a problem.

Forcing someone who's 2 points over to drop a 10 point upgrade, to me, is much worse than that same person asking if you're ok with them being 2 over. It's ok to force them to play 8 points under, but it's a serious crime if they play 2 over? Shouldn't you have to cut out 8 points now, to make it fair?

"I'm sorry, because of the crappy way your codex is laid out, your scouts have to give up their potentially game-turning rocket launcher because that douchebag Telion already comes with a cammo cloak so you had to buy 9 for the squad instead of an even 10...oh, you only got Telion because you wanted that infiltrating rocket launcher to be effective? Oh, well...sucks to be you." yeah, that makes you so much better than them 

At least with the old SM codex there was always SOMEPLACE you could trim 1 or 2 points from...that character doesn't really need grenades, who ever uses searchlights? The new one randomly sticks you with 2 and 3 point discrepancies but has no items less than 5, so you're kinda fucked if you don't manage to pull off the 'buy 10 of everything' deal

Literally, the list I set up recently had zero options that were less than 10 points (except the free ones which won't make a difference). There was nothing I could change to take away those 2 extra points that wouldn't put me 8 under and give up a huge part of a particular unit's effectiveness.

Can't drop a man because then you can't split the squad, can;t drop a cloak or two because they're all or nothing and the snipers need them. Can't downgrade a powerfist because the army already lacks anti-tank and an assault squad without a fist is useless to me, etc


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I'm a tournament orgainser here and leader of the club so I take on both ways. for tourneys it's strict because everything else is. in friendly games if they want to try out a new set up go on ahead if it's a small bit over but don't make a habit of it. Personally I love playing under the points. they have something more than me and It's a challenge. I won a 450pt combat patrol using 435pts.... But going over all the time is a no no...... And as a BA player I make lists to the point or less and with such an expensive army why can't everyone else?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Reev seems to be of the same mind as me. Five or less and it doesn't even matter, ten and I start asking if there's anything they can drop, but I won't complain if they don't. More than that and there's a problem.
> 
> Forcing someone who's 2 points over to drop a 10 point upgrade, to me, is much worse than that same person asking if you're ok with them being 2 over. It's ok to force them to play 8 points under, but it's a serious crime if they play 2 over? Shouldn't you have to cut out 8 points now, to make it fair?
> 
> ...


Maybe I chose to do the same when I came up with my 1502 Point List.

To be fair, the Space Marine Codex has all the upgrades (other than the Storm Bolter) are Multiples of 5, so you can always drop that upgrade here and there.

You're 5 Points over? Let's see, you have 5 Men in that Vanguard squad all with meltabombs? Sorry, but one has to lose his bomb.

Later on in the game, The 5 Man Vanguard charge a Land Raider, and use all their Meltabombs. They have 4 Hits, Blow off all it's Weapons, and Immobilise It. This is when my opponent starts ranting and raving that my Land Raider could be destroyed right there and then if I wasn't such a dick about letting just a Little over the list.

Maybe I am a dick. Feel free to insult me, but either be happy in the knowledge that if you chose to take more points than me you would have won (ooh get you), or that you chose to take equal, and you lost because a) you're not capable of playing properly, with what amounts to cheating, b) can't count, c) I'm just a better player.

Usually, it's the first one, because certainly at 40K, I'm nowhere near as skilled as I am at Fantasy (strange that the easier system is harder to convert skills across).


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## Cabagepatch (Feb 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I'm a complete bastard with this. I agree to play a game that follows rules. One of those rules is a point limit. By challenging me, you are agreeing to a set points value. If you go over, why bother playing the game if you can't follow rules you've set down.
> 
> Friendly or not, Fun game or not, I'll request that you play a list exact or under. You are 1 Pts over, and the cheapest thing that you can lose in your list is 10pts? Tough Titties. It goes.
> 
> You can always make a list in the limit. Otherwise, it's not a legal list. If you're playing a 1500 points game, but play with 10pts over, why the fuck isn't the Limit 1510? Makes more sense that way, because by definition, limit is well, the Limit.



this guy had it spot on^ ! k:

~This isn't the highway going from your house to work, or whatever. Its a game, so for once the rules were made *to be *followed and *not* broken/bent (for playing against noobs its a little different.)

lol cheers! :good:


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

I think its one of those questions that leaves little room for middle ground to be honest, alot like the 'playing with tinboyz' question that comes up now or again. 
I can respect folks who go by the letter, heck if I'm honest my wargear dropping thing probably means nine times out of ten I'm spot on or just under anyway, but I don't get bent out of shape if someone is just over. 

Although I should also note I'd not go to 'neutral' territory and play over the line, my wargear thing involves friends/family only. I know in a neutral place like a gaming store bumping into someone who would take offence is almost 50-50, so not worth the hassle.

Mind you after saying all that I really do think saying 5pts over is cheating is a little bit of a stretch of the imagination. Some armies are odd to build lists for, if I'm 15pts under as I can't add anything to the list, does that mean I was cheated by someone playing with 15pts more than me? I really don't think 15pts or less really makes any difference to the fairness of the game. 

Although oddly I've beaten someone who had 300pts more than me in fantasy with my Druchii, in a competetive game as well. I don't know what you'd call that. :grin:


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## Marshal Balian (Apr 25, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Maybe I chose to do the same when I came up with my 1502 Point List.
> 
> To be fair, the Space Marine Codex has all the upgrades (other than the Storm Bolter) are Multiples of 5, so you can always drop that upgrade here and there.
> 
> ...


Bingo. This is where I have to be a dick as well. All the codex's still have a wargear section but it is now in the list. 5pts can always be trimmed from a character or a particular squad or vehicle. 

My armies are either dead on (which is rare) or 3 pts under(such as 1997, or 1497). And I preach this onto the other's in our group. If I can manage it so can they. Cause I would sure love to give all my characters melta bombs too.


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## keytag33 (Apr 20, 2008)

The group that I play with is a pretty casual group, if it's reasonable we'll let people use it. But we have a +5 -15 pts limit. The reason we have a bottom is to stop the "but you had X number of points above me. It sounds stupid but it has happened.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

I try to make my lists fairly spot on, I rarely (if ever) go over the limit, but when it comes to my opponent I don't really care. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as some people do. 

I played 1000pts of Tau against 1,500pts of Imperial Guard just last weekend, it wasn't a fuck up either, I just wanted to see how my outnumbered and outgunned army would go in such a situation. As you could probably guess, in the end my forces were overrun and slaughtered, but my men went to their deaths against impossible odds in the name of the greater good, and it was a really fun game. I'm not saying I would play like that all the time, because even I like to win every now and then (or at least have a chance), but it was one of the more memorable games I've played recently, especially for the couple of turns when it looked like I might even come out on top. 

Anyway, I don't really care either way, if my opponent is 5 or 10 pts over, cool, let's go. If my list was 5 pts over (which it never is I might add) and my opponents insisted I drop something, fine, it's done, let's go.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Vaz said:


> Maybe I chose to do the same when I came up with my 1502 Point List.


I'm not quite sure what you're saying with this.



> To be fair, the Space Marine Codex has all the upgrades (other than the Storm Bolter) are Multiples of 5, so you can always drop that upgrade here and there.


Not in the list I quoted. The example I gave was a very tight scout list where no options cost less than 10 point and there was nothing that could be dropped without crippling a unit



> Maybe I am a dick. Feel free to insult me, but either be happy in the knowledge that if you chose to take more points than me you would have won (ooh get you), or that you chose to take equal, and you lost because a) you're not capable of playing properly, with what amounts to cheating, b) can't count, c) I'm just a better player.


Or you're so petty that you force other players to play against you at a handicap because you can't stand the thought of them being 2 points over 

Seriously, if you force me to play at an 8 point handicap in a list that can afford no downgrades, how is that more fair than me having 2 points on you? Hell, you can even go and buy yourself 2 points worth of wargear to make up for it if you want. I'm magnanimous, you can even go to 5.

I'm not saying that people don't need to abide by the rules, I'm just saying I'm not such a petty dick that I force people to cripple themselves to play against me. And this is coming from me, an admittedly petty, rules lawyering dick. I'm not going to throw a fit over someone who is less than 0.13% above the accepted margin. I'll go to the mat over a lot of rules, but an eighth of a percent? That's too petty even for me. Especially if the other guy is level with me about it.

Besides, as my little brother pointed out to me when I mentioned this subject to him, it is an infinite bonus for face-saving and bragging rights. If you lose you just say "Yeah, only because you had extra points." and if you win you say "Ha! And you even had extra points!"

That's the kind of petty dickery I can get behind


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Just remember, the point of this poll is to see what our opinions on the matter are. Some of us will be like Vaz and Cabagepatch, who are going to be dicks and sticklers about maintaining the limit or staying under; while there will be just as many like Gal and myself without a problem of being a few points over.

We can't, won't, and shouldn't all agree; its the point of varying play-style and this poll.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

True, but as established, I'm kind of petty and dickish and can't leave a disagreement without a fight 

But good point, probably shouldn;t turn it into a debate


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Tournament or play testing for tournament needs to be spot on, friendlies I like being exact but if the opponent is a few points off then idk. If its a younger kid I don't care enough to do that, I just play for them to enjoy the game more then anything.

Cheers,

Chaosftw


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## Akat (Feb 3, 2009)

For the most part I don't mind. Generally when we get together we yell across the room "any one mind if I'm 7 points over?" as we enter. Mind you all my games are with and borrowed army of a friend. I am a really cheep bastard I know.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

I am laughfing so hard I can barely type! This is not even a question for me, my last game was somthing like 1501 to 1565. I really dont care what your points value is, I'm playing the game to blow some imaginary space shit up not to knit pick over points values. If my oponent has that extra tactical squad, that just meens there is more stuff on the board to have fun with. 

Now if its a tournament or a campaign its diferent, there is a matter of cause and efect but for a random game, let them take the extra shit! It'll make the game more interesting. (Now, if they have like, an extra land raider thats just taking fun out of the game, but you get my point)


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

It depends on how many points the battle is to me. If it's a 1000 point battle I don't mind people going over by up to 20 points, but if it was a 3000 point game I don't mind if they go about 100 points over, depending on the situation. If they have 150 points spare but want a Land Raider I wouldn't mind, but if they went 100 points over and had 100 points of bonuses, I would tell them to get rid of at least half of it, or just get me another dreadnought.


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## Cabagepatch (Feb 4, 2009)

Zondarian said:


> It depends on how many points the battle is to me. If it's a 1000 point battle I don't mind people going over by up to 20 points, but if it was a 3000 point game I don't mind if they go about 100 points over, depending on the situation. If they have 150 points spare but want a Land Raider I wouldn't mind, but if they went 100 points over and had 100 points of bonuses, I would tell them to get rid of at least half of it, or just get me another dreadnought.


....crazyness...  (lol, all imo! ~i love this forum :laugh:!)


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

what we do is set a limit, get close to it and if one of us is slightly over we both upgrade till we are even


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Point on or under!

Having played quite some WHFB tournaments the limit is set as a limit in my eyes, and my whole gaming group has the same view(thankfully)


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## Trandoshanjake (Jul 22, 2008)

Spot on or under, if at all possible, otherwise +5, granted to both sides. Keeps the game even and there is no "IZZ NAH FAYR JOO HAD 2 MOAR PTS DEN ME!!!1" That stuff really gets on my nerves.


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## Fugital357 (Jan 19, 2009)

I'll allow ten points. I figure since me and my buddies are ****ing anal about WYSIWYG. Since models with upgrades on them are can be fairly hard to stand in, and that can add to confusion, well... We just go with it. 

After all, its not like its a tournament.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm pretty casual about points as long as things aren't too excessive. And if it does get excessive but they just can't cut some points and still play a list they're excited about, I'm always happy to add something to my list.

I just don't see the point limit as an immutable, fixed wall, but rather a guideline that we both agree upon to make the match up fair.


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

I allow extra points only for themed armies like Galahads scout army as they often already have some handicapping limits and I wouldn't want to break their army and make the game easier.
but for all general lists I would say spot on or under, there is definitely skill in making an effective force within a certain points limit


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## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

I really don't mind how many points my opponents over by, I usually am my self, and I'm usually playing with a small circle of friends who don't mind. A good example of this is an army list I made a while back, 400 points, necrons. I had 360 points worth of necron warriors, leaving me with 40 points. I wanted a wraith which is 41 points....
I :ireful2: hate necrons!


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## Suntalon (Apr 9, 2008)

A limit is a limit.


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## Mivarlocht (Jan 26, 2009)

My OCD dictates that my army must be _exactly_ the point limit. As for other people, as long as it's not more than five or ten above mine, I'm fine with it. If that grace is abused, it's retracted. No one's abused yet, however.


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## marcch (Apr 1, 2008)

When we play friendly games our group will tolerate a few points either way. When playing with strangers or in a tournament I agree that the points limits must be respected. I personally don't mind playing against a slightly overpointed list. If I beat them I know what I can take on and still have a chance of winning...besides it's fun at times to be the underdog. 
As far as points values goes I feel that some units in any given army may be overpriced in so far as their abilities go resulting in the player's opponent having an advantage anyway. Not all armies and their codex are created equal.


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## beeny13 (Mar 30, 2008)

i would never play a list that is over points, i think that it is presumptuous and puts the other player in a bad spot when you plan to break the agreed upon rules from the start.

that being said i don't care if my opponent is over. if he is over a significant amount, like 50 points i will just adjust my list and add an attack bike or something.

i played someone on vassal the other day, they were playing sisters, no priests, didn't want to use faith points, had arco flagellants, didn't really list their upgrades. it was about 20 minutes of negotiating their list before we even started. i think they were at least 60 points over, so i just added a bike and said lets go.


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