# How long will the heresy series last



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

So I remember hearing somewhere that the heresy series will be about 50 books. We are 30 books done.
Now, the current pace seems to be 2 novels a year. Will the heresy series really last for 10 more years?
Ps I love the heresy so this doesn't bother me.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Never heard the fifty books in the series one before, any idea where that might have come from?

At this point, there are not many known elements of the Age of Darkness left to write (that I can recall anyway.) The Blood Angels and White Scars still need to arrive on Terra, the Death Guard still need to be trapped in the warp and Mortarion forced to make his pact with Nurgle, and Magnus needs to finally commit the remnants of his legion.

Some of those, notably the coming of the Blood Angels and White Scars, are more than likely something that can be handled in a novella or two, while the transformation (and damnation) of the Death Guard is likely to be a book in and of itself.


I personally don't think more than another dozen books, the Siege itself included.


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

darkreever said:


> Never heard the fifty books in the series one before, any idea where that might have come from?
> 
> At this point, there are not many known elements of the Age of Darkness left to write (that I can recall anyway.) The Blood Angels and White Scars still need to arrive on Terra, the Death Guard still need to be trapped in the warp and Mortarion forced to make his pact with Nurgle, and Magnus needs to finally commit the remnants of his legion.
> 
> ...


I believe that the bl authors are expanding on the old lore. Aaron dembski sbow den hS said that the ultramarines for instance will be getting at least another novel, as the ultramarines won't just be sitting around like the old lore suggests. We also have the war in the webway and I'm guessing some legions that haven't had much spotlight will get a novel


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> I personally don't think more than another dozen books, the Siege itself included.


I strongly disagree, especially considering books with plots such as _The Damnation of Pythos_ are still being released. Also, if _Vengeful Spirit_ is anything to go by, we may see quite a few other additional books (alongside the known events you already mentioned) included in the Age of Darkness arc - eg. Russ attacking Horus. There is still the Secret War to cover as well. The continuation of the Caliban (Zadkiel, Luther etc) arc. The Lion's justification for not defending Terra (and his secret warp device). The Alpha Legion's continuing schemes post-Alaxxes Nebula. The Knights Errant (Inquisition/Grey Knights) plot. Battle of Paramar (maybe). Lorgar and the Word Bearers post-Shadow Crusade. Perturabo after his fiasco with Fulgrim. Etc. 

The Imperium Secundus plot needs also tying up - Sanguinius has just been proclaimed Emperor, the story needs telling how he abandons Guilliman and makes for Terra. I think there is a big-plot bridge to cover before the Siege of Terra gets underway. Most Legion needs 'repositioning' from their 'current' positions in order for the Siege to get underway. 

@Loken: No one has ever definitively stated how many books the series will contain. Personally, my guess would be quite a few more than 50. My estimate would be nearer 75, if not more.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No one has ever definitively stated how many books the series will contain. Personally, my guess would be quite a few more than 50. My estimate would be nearer 75.


Oh that's a beautiful number.


LotN


----------



## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Before Damnation of Pythos, I would've guessed 50... now, it could be anything. 

30 novels in and we still haven't gotten a novel focused on the DG, IF, or NL. Novellas... but not full novels to truly flesh out these legions and how they're different. 

CoTE's list of events seem pretty good...that's still a LOT of stuff to cover... and that's all before the siege.

I would add the Lion saving Russ from the AL. That needs a novella at least. 

Agreed that most Legions need repositioning. Some seem like they're (almost) ready to go. After Scars, I don't think another novel is really needed for the WS. Their arrival on Terra can be a small part of another novel. Of course, an entire novel can be written about the WS's actions on Terra.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Personally I wish they'd hurry the fuck up with it. If we have to put up with more shit like Vengeful Spirit to get to the end, I don't know if I have the will to hang on till the end. 

They could probably do it in ten books, but that ain't going to happen. I'm just sick of all the novellas and audios you have to try and keep up with to stay current. I think a dose of Heresy fatigue is setting in. 

@Child-of-the-Emperor, don't forget we still have to see the conclusion of the war on Mars as well. Hopefully McNeill will do a similar job as he did with Mechanicum, and make up some of the ground he lost with VS.

Something else just occurred to me writing this. There was always the question of where the SWs were for the battle on Terra. We thought they were held up by the AL, but this is no longer the case. We now know they got to Terra, but left again in an attempt to kill Horus. This is obviously going to be unsuccessful, and Horus makes it to Terra. I'll be interested to see where they now leave Russ while Terra burns.


----------



## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Too long, with all the novellas limited editions, audios, trade paperback before regular paper back it is getting quite boring, I used to avidly await a new heresy novel, now it seems like a chore to sit down and read one and then the is the level of varied quality! However that aside, I can see the series being dragged well over 50 books


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I myself was thinking of start read the HH books from the beginning not to long ago. I thought i was like 5 books. Then I realised it was well over 20 and that it was not finished! Now I've decided to skip the HH series altogether.


----------



## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

Moriouce said:


> I myself was thinking of start read the HH books from the beginning not to long ago. I thought i was like 5 books. Then I realised it was well over 20 and that it was not finished! Now I've decided to skip the HH series altogether.


Mistake! Many of them are truly excellent! Try the initial trilogy at least.


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

That is the problem. I looked at BL but could not understand in which cronological order they where. Must say that BL site was all other than user friendly. Are there anywhere all the books are put in order?


----------



## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

I will be the first to admit, I am waaaaay beind in the HH series (the last book I read was the First Heretic) but with the release of numerous novellas and audio books, I am utterly lost.

Plus the likes of Battle for the Abyss and Nemesis were so terrible, I don't want to buy a book that I will end up hating (and I really hate those two...)


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Dude, cronological order isn't massively important in the series. After the first 3 some are set before or after each other and many stand alone. I'm sure there is a rough frame work out there somewhere though.


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Okey! So I'll try the first trilogy. Which are? Horus rising, false gods? 

I liked the sound of the plot of Flight of the Eisenstein. Is that a freestanding book or part of a trilogy?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are the original trilogy as it were. Flight of the Eisenstein and Fulgrim both neatly follow. The original trilogy is needed for Flight and Fulgrim, and really all the others. The first three are essential reading.


----------



## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I dont understand why some people want simply more and more, considering how poor some of books in series are. Third of books i can say are good, half maybe average at most and rest just bad.

Feels that people dont care about overall quality, more quantity is what they want. Some reviewers even are quite blind to this.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Moriouce said:


> I myself was thinking of start read the HH books from the beginning not to long ago. I thought i was like 5 books. Then I realised it was well over 20 and that it was not finished! Now I've decided to skip the HH series altogether.


As LazyG said, huge mistake. Some of the best novels BL have put out are in this series. _The First Heretic, A Thousand Sons, Know No Fear, Betrayer_ and _Scars_, to name but a few. If you start now and read two or three a year, the series might have come near the end by the time you catch up.



Moriouce said:


> I liked the sound of the plot of Flight of the Eisenstein. Is that a freestanding book or part of a trilogy?


In a strange, Douglas Adams sort of way, it's like the fourth part of a trilogy. Definitely one of my favourites in the series. Garro is one of the better characters in the series.



Roninman said:


> I dont understand why some people want simply more and more, considering how poor some of books in series are. Third of books i can say are good, half maybe average at most and rest just bad.


There is a lot of merit in this. However, we are now so invested in it we want to see it through, however frustrating it proves to be. For every _Battle for the Abyss_ or _Fallen Angels_ there's a _Fulgrim_ or _Know No Fear_. Some have proved not to live up to their potential, like _Fear To Thread, Unremembered Empire_ or _Vengeful Spirit_, and some have pleasantly surprised us by going far beyond expectations, like _The First Heretic_ and _Scars_.


----------



## Paceyjg (May 12, 2011)

I think the vast majority of the HH are good, only the Dark Angels additions have been a struggle to read for me. On that basis I will continue to read as many as they publish!

That being said I am only sticking to the novels and ignoring the limited editions and novellas etc.


----------



## evanswolves (Jun 16, 2013)

Theres an upcoming boxset of the first 12 books coming out in Oct
http://www.waterstones.com/watersto...rus+heresy+box+set3a+volumes+1+-+12/10973668/


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

I really hope they also make more graphic novels. I loved macragges honour and would gladly spend the money on more. Being a ultramarines fan, anyone know what future battles they will take part in?


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think I stopped reading after Battle for the Abyss, not because of the quality of that book in particular but because of the pace of the overall series and that I could see what it was becoming: a cash cow: Novels, Limited Edition Novels, Audio Dramas, Limited Edition Novellas, Novella's, Event Exclusive Novellas, Comics, Limited Edition Comics and god knows what else, I seriously wonder if there is anybody who at the end of it will have been able to get every single part of the story (and if they have whether they have a savings account).

Yes there is a lot of ground to cover and a lot of events going on but not all of it is 100% vital to the events leading up to Terra. I would have preferred it if they had smashed out that main story line (Horus's betrayal and the push for Terra) in say 10 books early on in the piece (bear in mind it was originally supposed to be 3, I think it was?) and then gone back and filled in the "blanks" with trilogy's (SW/TS conflict, UM/WB's, Fall of the Dark Angels etc).


----------



## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Moriouce said:


> That is the problem. I looked at BL but could not understand in which cronological order they where. Must say that BL site was all other than user friendly. Are there anywhere all the books are put in order?


The BL site can definitely be a little confusing and should really contain some type of list page rather than recently published which takes into account new hardcovers etc of older novels which doesn't help.

The general order of the novels and anthologies can be found here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Series#.U6kCXJSSzE0

I enjoy being up to date with the novels - the multitude of short stories and audiobooks are another story though..


----------



## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

I think the novellas and limited editions are all skippabale. They add some colour and depth but aren't required reading for the series as a whole. Sticking to the general release novels and short story collections is fine.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

LazyG said:


> I think the novellas and limited editions are all skippabale. They add some colour and depth but aren't required reading for the series as a whole. Sticking to the general release novels and short story collections is fine.


Agreed, but _Aurelian_ is worth it. It's the only novella that actually gives you something new and important to the overall story. The rest are dross.


----------



## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

True, Aurelian does make the transition from First Heretic to Betrayer and the Primarchs novellas make a lot more sense. The rest have been thin for sure.


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Alright then, I'll give them a try. Atleast the first four. Maybe Fulgrim but we'll see when I get so far. Does Fulgrim inclued his campaign against the Lear and his meeting with Eldrad?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes it does.


----------



## johnnype (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi All! New to the forums. First post. I've been reading the HH for the last couple of years (I'm a slow reader). I've read most of the short stories but haven't found them all. I'm about half done with Vengeful Spirit and boy it's been one long strange trip. 



Scrad said:


> The general order of the novels and anthologies can be found here:
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Series#.U6kCXJSSzE0


Yep, I reference that Lexicanum page at least once a week. Well worth bookmarking. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> Agreed, but _Aurelian_ is worth it.


 Yep, Aurelian is a must read.

I'll add that if you like Flight of the Eisenstein (I really enjoyed it) you'll probably want to dip into the audio dramas as well.


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

johnnype said:


> Hi All! New to the forums. First post. I've been reading the HH for the last couple of years (I'm a slow reader). I've read most of the short stories but haven't found them all. I'm about half done with Vengeful Spirit and boy it's been one long strange trip.
> 
> Yep, I reference that Lexicanum page at least once a week. Well worth bookmarking.
> 
> ...


vengeful spirit is a great read


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Garviel loken. said:


> vengeful spirit is a great read


This is probably the funniest thing I have read all night.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Doelago said:


> This is probably the funniest thing I have read all night.


How so?


----------



## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> vengeful spirit is a great read


Actually its about average at best.


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Roninman said:


> Actually its about average at best.


I loved the loken parts tho. I mean its not as good as know no fear, galaxy in flames, horus rising, unremembered empire, but still great


----------



## johnnype (Jun 28, 2014)

For what it's worth, I asked Chris Wraight on twitter. His response to my question about how long the HH series is going to be: "I don't think anyone know just how far there is to go... A long way yet, I'd guess."


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I have nothing against quantity...as long as quality is maintained. I think there are only a few talented authours on the HH team. The rest are medicocre to bad.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

its far too much of a cash cow for GW to end any time soon, i stopped reading about ten or so books in as i felt the progression was far too slow and the rate of release too high.


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

johnnype said:


> For what it's worth, I asked Chris Wraight on twitter. His response to my question about how long the HH series is going to be: "I don't think anyone know just how far there is to go... A long way yet, I'd guess."


interesting. Would you be able to ask chris a few questions for me? 1st- will we see ventanus in future heresy novels? 2nd- What is his next novel


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I have nothing against quantity...as long as quality is maintained. I think there are only a few talented authours on the HH team. The rest are medicocre to bad.


I agree wholeheartedly.



Garviel loken. said:


> interesting. Would you be able to ask chris a few questions for me? 1st- will we see ventanus in future heresy novels? 2nd- What is his next novel


Ask him yourself. :laugh:


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

My thoughts in short on each of the Heresy team:

Dan Abnett - Very Good, sometimes Great. Example, Legion = Good. Know No Fear = Great.
Graham McNeill - Good, usually Great, sometimes Excellent. Example, Mechanicum = Good. Angel Exterminatus = Great. A Thousand Sons = Excellent.
James Swallow - Good, sometimes Great. Flight of the Eisenstein = Good. Fear to Tread = Great.
Chris Wraight - Very Good.
Rob Sanders - Very Good
David Annandale - Sometimes Good, sometimes Bad.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden - Always Exceptional.
John French - Very Good, usually Great.
Gav Thorpe - Good, usually Very Good.
Nick Kyme - Very Good, occasionally Great.


LotN


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> My thoughts in short on each of the Heresy team:
> 
> Dan Abnett - Very Good, sometimes Great. Example, Legion = Good. Know No Fear = Great.
> Graham McNeill - Good, usually Great, sometimes Excellent. Example, Mechanicum = Good. Angel Exterminatus = Great. A Thousand Sons = Excellent.
> ...


lol


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> lol


Such a well thought out response.

Yes I like Gav Thorpe, James Swallow, Nick Kyme and Graham McNeill. You don't like them. But where you make comments like that, I don't call you out for constantly ragging on them. It would be decent of you to pay me the same courtesy.


LotN


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> Such a well thought out response.
> 
> Yes I like Gav Thorpe, James Swallow, Nick Kyme and Graham McNeill. You don't like them. But where you make comments like that, I don't call you out for constantly ragging on them. It would be decent of you to pay me the same courtesy.
> 
> ...


To me (then again it's hard to see how anyone would disagree with this viewpoint) what defines a good author is whether or not their works generate discussions, debates, etc.

None of that has happened with 95% of the authors you mentioned, or at least on this site.

Top of my mind, Thorpe's Soulforge generated zero threads despite being being a HH title.

BL is being supported on the shoulders of three men. That's very problematic.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> To me (then again it's hard to see how anyone would disagree with this viewpoint) what defines a good author is whether or not their works generate discussions, debates, etc.
> 
> None of that has happened with 95% of the authors you mentioned, or at least on this site.
> 
> Top of my mind, Thorpe's Soulforge generated zero threads despite being being a HH title.


Well to me what defines a good author is whether or not their works are enjoyable to me. I don't care what other people think of the books I like, I like them and that is what matters to me. I don't disagree that when a book generates debates and discussions it's a good sign for the book, but that doesn't define an author's quality for me.

Irrelevant to me.

I don't care. Whether or not a book generates discussion doesn't define it's, and by extension the author's, quality. Using your example I thought Soulforge was a fairly enjoyable novella with interesting insights into Corax's character and the kind of stealth action and guerrilla warfare that we don't see enough of when it comes to the Raven Guard. (Not as good as George Mann's Ninja-Ravens in The Unkindness of Ravens, but definitely second place.)


LotN


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Lord of the Night said:


> Well to me what defines a good author is whether or not their works are enjoyable to me. I don't care what other people think of the books I like, I like them and that is what matters to me. I don't disagree that when a book generates debates and discussions it's a good sign for the book, but that doesn't define an author's quality for me.
> 
> Irrelevant to me.
> 
> ...


Good point lotn. Personally I have yet to be dissapointed by the heresy so far(no I have not read them all) but I will always look up reviews of what other people thought of the book I just read. I have discovered I care not for there thoughts, because there will always be someone who has to complain about a book.


----------



## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Well to me what defines a good author is whether or not their works are enjoyable to me. I don't care what other people think of the books I like, I like them and that is what matters to me. I don't disagree that when a book generates debates and discussions it's a good sign for the book, but that doesn't define an author's quality for me.


This is how I choose to look at novels, and by extension movies, games, etc.

For example, I enjoyed Deliverance Lost whereas the majority of readers here didn't seem to at all. I didn't mind Nemesis as a book. Same with Angel Exterminatus. 

Its all down to personal opinion.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Dan Abnett - Very Good, sometimes Great


Abnett is good to great, sure 



> Graham McNeill - Good, usually Great, sometimes Excellent.


Usually terrible, sometimes good. Combing through his work is like trying to find a few gems (one gem really) in a mountain of dung 



> James Swallow - Good, sometimes Great. Flight of the Eisenstein = Good. Fear to Tread = Great.


Mountain of dung completely devoid of gems. His dung isn't as offensive as C.S. Goto's 



> Chris Wraight - Very Good.


Yes 



> Rob Sanders - Very Good


I wouldn't put him one the same level as Wraight. Probably just "good" 



> David Annandale - Sometimes Good, sometimes Bad.


Yeah...probably 



> Aaron Dembski-Bowden - Always Exceptional


He is tied with Abnett and Wraight in my eyes. I'm not quite as gushing about him as some other posters on this forum...but he's generally excellent, yes. Miles ahead of guys like Swallow, Kyme, Thorpe 



> John French - Very Good, usually Great


I would say usually good, sometimes very good. I think he's a rising star



> Gav Thorpe - Good, usually Very Good.


Usually bad, occasionally mediocre 



> Nick Kyme - Very Good, occasionally Great.


LOLOLOLOLOL no 

Fall of Damnos was acceptable...even enjoyable. Everything else by him has been excruciatingly bad


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> My thoughts in short on each of the Heresy team:
> 
> Dan Abnett - Very Good, sometimes Great. Example, Legion = Good. Know No Fear = Great.
> Graham McNeill - Good, usually Great, sometimes Excellent. Example, Mechanicum = Good. Angel Exterminatus = Great. A Thousand Sons = Excellent.
> ...


I would *strongly* disagree that every single contributor to the Heresy series is at least good, and most very good. 

To be more diplomatic than Malus: I haven't come across anyone else, on forums or otherwise, who has the near-universally positive opinions of the Heresy authors as you do (I can't remember reading any criticisms from you - constructive or otherwise). And that's fine, it's your opinion, obviously. This isn't a criticism, merely an observation. 

From my perspective: there are only a trio of authors whose work I have consistently enjoyed, and they are Abnett, Dembski-Bowden and Wraight (with an honourable mention for John French). I generally find Kyme to be the worst, I heavily dislike Swallow's interpretation of the setting in his novels and I find Mcneill frustrating in that he can produce such great novels such as _A Thousand Sons_ and tripe like _Angel Exterminatus_ and _Vengeful Spirit_.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To be more diplomatic than Malus: I haven't come across anyone else, on forums or otherwise, who has the near-universally positive opinions of the Heresy authors as you do (I can't remember reading any criticisms from you - constructive or otherwise). And that's fine, it's your opinion, obviously. This isn't a criticism, merely an observation.


That's why we like you CotE. You're always diplomatic. 

I do actually have criticisms of the Horus Heresy novels and series as a whole. I just prefer to talk about what I like rather than what I don't like so I don't really post about them. And there have been Heresy books I didn't care for; Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels, Battle for the Abyss, Legion, The Outcast Dead, the Tallarn novella(s), Promethean Sun, and some short stories.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> From my perspective: there are only a trio of authors whose work I have consistently enjoyed, and they are Abnett, Dembski-Bowden and Wraight (with an honourable mention for John French). I generally find Kyme to be the worst, I heavily dislike Swallow's interpretation of the setting in his novels and I find Mcneill frustrating in that he can produce such great novels such as A Thousand Sons and tripe like Angel Exterminatus and Vengeful Spirit.


From mine: there are a few authors whose work I consistently enjoy in the Heresy series, and those are Aaron Dembski-Bowden, James Swallow and Graham McNeill (With the exception of Outcast Dead). In Abnett's case I found Legion to be lacking in the Alpha Legion area and much preferred The Serpent Beneath as a true Alpha Legion story, whereas Legion to me was a story featuring the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Army. For Wraight and Thorpe who have each only written one novel in the series I can't really say I have consistently enjoyed their work since enjoying one novel is not consistently enjoying their work in my opinion. John French I do enjoy but I found Templar to be anti-climactic and his Tallarn novella was far too short and like Part 1 of a wider novel rather than one novella in a series of novellas.

Annandale has only written one book, his best one yet in my opinion, but still only one in the series and it didn't handle any of the wider series characters. So time will tell if he can do them as well as the others. Sanders has said he will write a novel in the HH series in the future and as I find his depiction of Chaos to be one of the best in Black Library, Top 3-level, I am really looking forward to his series debut, and I seriously hope it is about the Alpha Legion because his depiction of them in The Serpent Beneath is the best of them all. And in Kyme's case I enjoyed Vulkan Lives and Scorched Earth quite a bit, whether or not i'll consistently enjoy his Heresy novels has yet to be seen as he hasn't written more than one.

The list I posted above reflects my opinion of the author in general rather than specific works.


LotN


----------



## Sevatar (Aug 21, 2013)

Lord of the Night said:


> Well to me what defines a good author is whether or not their works are enjoyable to me. I don't care what other people think of the books I like, I like them and that is what matters to me. I don't disagree that when a book generates debates and discussions it's a good sign for the book, but that doesn't define an author's quality for me.
> 
> Irrelevant to me.
> 
> I don't care. Whether or not a book generates discussion doesn't define it's, and by extension the author's, quality. Using your example I thought Soulforge was a fairly enjoyable novella with interesting insights into Corax's character and the kind of stealth action and guerrilla warfare that we don't see enough of when it comes to the Raven Guard. (Not as good as George Mann's Ninja-Ravens in The Unkindness of Ravens, but definitely second place.)


Another problem with generating discussion is the staggered release of the new novels plus the scattering of the plot accross audiobooks, e-shorts and the like.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Sevatar said:


> Another problem with generating discussion is the staggered release of the new novels plus the scattering of the plot accross audiobooks, e-shorts and the like.


Different mediums/expansion of literature is not a/the problem.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Different mediums/expansion of literature is not a/the problem.


Bad writing is the problem. Promethean Sun anyone?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I do actually have criticisms of the Horus Heresy novels and series as a whole. I just prefer to talk about what I like rather than what I don't like so I don't really post about them.


That might be why, because of the list you posted:



Lord of the Night said:


> And there have been Heresy books I didn't care for; Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels, Battle for the Abyss, Legion, The Outcast Dead, the Tallarn novella(s), Promethean Sun, and some short stories.


A quick search revealed that (at least from your Founding Fields reviews) you haven't reviewed any of the novels in that list. :wink:

If you care to know, I'd be interested in reading a review of yours that is primarily critical. I want to hear the negative criticisms and annoyances rather than just the gushing positives.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> A quick search revealed that (at least from your Founding Fields reviews) you haven't reviewed any of the novels in that list. :wink:
> 
> If you care to know, I'd be interested in reading a review of yours that is primarily critical. I want to hear the negative criticisms and annoyances rather than just the gushing positives.


Well that's mainly because I only started reading/reviewing the series at _A Thousand Sons_ and I didn't feel like going back to the beginning. But fair point. I can do that, and I will in the near future.


LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I just prefer to talk about what I like rather than what I don't like so I don't really post about them


You seem to have adopted the same approach for your reviews

I remember buying _Fear to Tread_ based on your gushing praise. After reading it, I was rather shocked that a novel of such mediocre quality could garner such a glowing review. Perhaps you could point out negatives while adding something along the lines of "this reviewer was able to enjoy the novel despite its numerous flaws such as blah blah blah". Outright ignoring negatives is rather strange if you're doing a review.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> You seem to have adopted the same approach for your reviews
> 
> I remember buying _Fear to Tread_ based on your gushing praise. After reading it, I was rather shocked that a novel of such mediocre quality could garner such a glowing review. Perhaps you could point out negatives while adding something along the lines of "this reviewer was able to enjoy the novel despite its numerous flaws such as blah blah blah". Outright ignoring negatives is rather strange if you're doing a review.


That post assumes that I read the book, hated everything about it that you did and then decided to praise it anyway. Whatever you considered bad about that book, I obviously did not. Thus I praised it. For example I am pretty sure you hated the Junk-Daemon scene, whereas that and the extended scenes in the haunted city are one of my favourite group of scenes in the entire Heresy.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

What I think Monty is suggesting, and I would generally agree with him, is that some of your reviews are not very balanced. The vast majority praise the novel you are reviewing and you often give scores of 9 or 10 out of 10, and I rarely see any significant criticisms of BL novels despite, I would say, it generally being accepted that BL churns out some utter trash. I will generally only buy HH or AD-B BL novels, and that is only because I remain captivated by the 30k/40k setting. 

Having said that, I still read your reviews now and again. But I won't buy a novel based on your praise because I know your reviews are usually positive and that we often don't agree on what is a good book and what isn't. 

Again, this is just an observation, not a criticism of you or your reviews.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What I think Monty is suggesting, and I would generally agree with him, is that some of your reviews are not very balanced. The vast majority praise the novel you are reviewing and you often give scores of 9 or 10 out of 10, and I rarely see any significant criticisms of BL novels despite, I would say, it generally being accepted that BL churns out some utter trash. I will generally only buy HH or AD-B BL novels, and that is only because I remain captivated by the 30k/40k setting.
> 
> Having said that, I still read your reviews now and again. But I won't buy a novel based on your praise because I know your reviews are usually positive and that we often don't agree on what is a good book and what isn't.
> 
> Again, this is just an observation, not a criticism of you or your reviews.


Perhaps but again, I do think it does come down to a case of what one person considers to be a flaw, another may not consider that a flaw. So when you read one of my reviews and see something you disliked being praised by me, it's simply a matter of opinion on whether or not that particular aspect is good or bad. Take the Junk-Daemon scene in _Fear to Tread_, most people here despise that scene yet it's one of my all-time favourites in the Heresy, the reasons for which I posted here;

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1373509&postcount=19

I do try to balance my reviews by talking about what annoyed me or what I outright didn't like, but because I enjoy the four authors that are the most mixed in reception, (Kyme, McNeill, Swallow and Thorpe), I will inevitably enjoy more of the Heresy series than most, and I have no problem with how any of them write so I don't consider what some call flaws to actually be flaws. It's all opinion and personal taste. Admittedly I don't like any of those authors more than ADB, Wraight, Sanders or French; but I still like them enough that I look forward to what they put out.

Also for your considering, you said you wanted to see me write a review on a book I dislike. Here are two of them;

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/07/black-library-review-horus-heresy.html

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/07/black-library-review-horus-heresy_4.html

My reviews for _Legion_ and _Battle for the Abyss_, a popular HH book that I personally didn't like and a generally disliked book that I too didn't care for, and the reasons why for both. However I have also pointed out what aspects, either good parts or small silver linings, of the books that I did like. I hope whoever reads them find them interesting.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm with CotE here. I occasionally read your reviews, but with such a high quantity of 9's and 10's, it makes the score lose its meaning somewhat to me. It's the same for any reviewer, there are some critics on the AV Club that offer almost unanimous A's for their reviews. As a result I lose my interest. There are some shows I love beyond criticism, that other people may hate, but I can still find negatives.

Legion, Betrayer, The First Heretic, Horus Rising, Know No Fear, Scars, Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. These are the novels I consider to be the best of the Heresy series, the gems amongst was is becoming an increasing amount of annoyance and disappointment. No surprise that the majority are Abnett and ADB, with Wraight making an obvious appearence and McNeill an rare one(but hey if you will sit enough monkeys infront of typewriters for long enough...). They are all excellent, thoroughly enjoyable books, and yet if I was to review any of them, I could still find negatives(yes even Legion!) and would strive to make them known in the book. 

On a similar note, if I was reviewing Battle for the Abyss, Fear to Tread, Nemesis, Descent of Angels, Vulkan Lives and the others. It would be mostly negative admittedly, but I would note down the positives as well(Fear to Tread might be hard), such as Mhotep in BftA.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i would just like to say for the record that Decent of Angels sucked huge donkey balls, i have read upto and including Prospero burns after which i threw in the towel with the series. Im not sure what i expected to happen with the series but i suppose i should have suspected it was going to spawn loads of books when the first 4 or so books started showing up in best seller lists, personally i was expecting a more focused story about the rise and fall of Horus, maybe 10 to 15 books solely focused on him,his actions and his plans like in the first three books, Decent of Angels felt like they had shoe horned a DA origin story book into the wider story of the heresy just to cash in on the popularity of the "Horus Heresy", alot of the books after the initial 4 releases felt like fluff and filler and cash cows if im honest, very little mention if any of the warmaster other than in passing and none of them really moved the main plot along, but have said this many times before, i should skip a few books and check out some of the new titles and find out if they have any content i want to read about.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm with CotE here. I occasionally read your reviews, but with such a high quantity of 9's and 10's, it makes the score lose its meaning somewhat to me. It's the same for any reviewer, there are some critics on the AV Club that offer almost unanimous A's for their reviews. As a result I lose my interest. There are some shows I love beyond criticism, that other people may hate, but I can still find negatives.


Well one thing that I think affects the score is exactly what the reviewer considers the score to mean. For me a 5/10 is Average; 6/10 is Above Average; 7/10 is Good; 8/10 is Very Good; 9/10 is Great; and 10/10 is Excellent. And the .0-9 rankings equate exactly how far something is along that scale. Something can be Good but falls short of Very Good by a few things, that should be reflected in my opinion.

I do agree with you and I do try to establish in my reviews both the positive and negative aspects, but it does come down to what one considers a negative aspect. And in some books, though I do try and think about it, I can't think of an aspect to them that I didn't like. Admittedly there are some books that on reflection and thought I wouldn't have scored as high, _Angel Exterminatus_ as one example. (That said I wouldn't score it low, just not quite as high as I did.)



Angel of Blood said:


> Legion, Betrayer, The First Heretic, Horus Rising, Know No Fear, Scars, Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. These are the novels I consider to be the best of the Heresy series, the gems among what is becoming an increasing amount of annoyance and disappointment. No surprise that the majority are Abnett and ADB, with Wraight making an obvious appearance and McNeill an rare one (but hey if you will sit enough monkeys in front of typewriters for long enough...). They are all excellent, thoroughly enjoyable books, and yet if I was to review any of them, I could still find negatives (yes even Legion!) and would strive to make them known in the book.


For me it's _A Thousand Sons, The First Heretic, Know No Fear, Fear to Tread_ and _Betrayer_*. I consider them to be the finest HH books with the rest, and yes if pressed I can find negatives among them as well.

In _A Thousand Sons_ there's the first third that drags and feels unimportant when compared to the rest of the novel. In _Fear to Tread_ there's the noticeable similarities between the key characters and others being underdeveloped, and those that were truly awesome (Amit) weren't used enough. In _Know No Fear_ there's the lack of uniqueness about Ventanus, he feels a bit too much like an Uriel Ventris expy, and the truly interesting character Aeonid Thiel doesn't get enough page-time in my opinion. In _Betrayer_ there's... well I actually can't think of any in _Betrayer_ or _The First Heretic_ at the moment. Excellent stories in both, characters were superb, action scenes powerful and engaging, easy to enjoy pace, great endings that really stick with you. Would need to re-read both.



I suppose Argel Tal's death in _Betrayer_ was a minus for me. But that's because I *REALLY REALLY* didn't want him to die. :cray:


*(Honourable mentions to _Prince of Crows_ and _The Serpent Beneath_ which both rank among the best HH pieces in my opinion.)



Angel of Blood said:


> On a similar note, if I was reviewing Battle for the Abyss, Fear to Tread, Nemesis, Descent of Angels, Vulkan Lives and the others. It would be mostly negative admittedly, but I would note down the positives as well (Fear to Tread might be hard), such as Mhotep in BftA.


Completely agree about Mhotep in BftA, he was the one real positive aspect about that book. My review says as much. Him and the sense of sacrifice and unknown heroism in the ending, and as of _Betrayer_ the futility that comes from the fact that the heroes sacrifice was completely pointless.


LotN


----------



## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

Lord of the Night said:


> My thoughts in short on each of the Heresy team:
> 
> Dan Abnett - Very Good, sometimes Great. Example, Legion = Good. Know No Fear = Great.
> Graham McNeill - Good, usually Great, sometimes Excellent. Example, Mechanicum = Good. Angel Exterminatus = Great. A Thousand Sons = Excellent.
> ...


I don't post here much, but this thread frustrated the hell out of me. I completely agree with your views on the authors. Though i'd go a little further, as the only author I have ever had any struggle to fully enjoy was Andy Hoare. 



MontytheMighty said:


> Abnett is good to great, sure
> 
> 
> Usually terrible, sometimes good. Combing through his work is like trying to find a few gems (one gem really) in a mountain of dung
> ...


I think you need to realize that people have different opinions than you. I like those authors as well. In fact, McNeill is by and far my favourite author. I'm more excited about Vengeful Spirit and Crimson King than ADBs Master of Mankind(which I am also extremely excited about). 
You can't say he is wrong, just because you think something different about the authors he enjoys.
Well, I suppose you CAN say he is wrong, but it doesn't make you right 



MontytheMighty said:


> You seem to have adopted the same approach for your reviews
> 
> I remember buying _Fear to Tread_ based on your gushing praise. After reading it, I was rather shocked that a novel of such mediocre quality could garner such a glowing review. Perhaps you could point out negatives while adding something along the lines of "this reviewer was able to enjoy the novel despite its numerous flaws such as blah blah blah". Outright ignoring negatives is rather strange if you're doing a review.


I usually write my reviews, which are just on goodreads and only read by a tiny handful of individuals, the same way. I mostly write what I liked, and try and mention what I think took away from the book. In some cases, the books earn a perfect 5 stars, and there are no negatives(FOR ME), and my reviews reflect such. I really don't give two shits what YOU think about _____ novel by ______ author. What you might think is bad, I might love. Plus, as many reviews as I read, I like to make my own opinions.



Lord of the Night said:


> That post assumes that I read the book, hated everything about it that you did and then decided to praise it anyway. Whatever you considered bad about that book, I obviously did not. Thus I praised it. For example I am pretty sure you hated the Junk-Daemon scene, whereas that and the extended scenes in the haunted city are one of my favourite group of scenes in the entire Heresy.
> 
> 
> LotN


I like your reviews, keep writing them as you like to. I also enjoy Abhinav's(his name on here has something to do with Corax..?) reviews.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What I think Monty is suggesting, and I would generally agree with him, is that some of your reviews are not very balanced. The vast majority praise the novel you are reviewing and you often give scores of 9 or 10 out of 10, and I rarely see any significant criticisms of BL novels despite, I would say, it generally being accepted that BL churns out some utter trash. I will generally only buy HH or AD-B BL novels, and that is only because I remain captivated by the 30k/40k setting.
> 
> Having said that, I still read your reviews now and again. But I won't buy a novel based on your praise because I know your reviews are usually positive and that we often don't agree on what is a good book and what isn't.
> 
> Again, this is just an observation, not a criticism of you or your reviews.


You know the saying "no offense" right after saying anything offensive?
This seems to me, to be you pretty much saying he doesn't write reviews "correctly" and that his opinions are wrong. He writes his reviews(keywork there: his). That means his opinions(again: his) about what are good, or bad, or mediocre, or disappointing, etc. about the book are what he writes.
If you find a reviewer that doesn't match your exact taste, find a new one to base your purchases off of. I like to read a fair amount of reviews, barring as many spoilers as possible, to get a lot of different opinions. And many, many times, I find that despite reading numerous reviews, I still have a different opinion or take on any given release than those many reviews's authors. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't make me wrong. People enjoy different things. People dislike different things.

As I said earlier. I like 99% of what I have read, and I even enjoyed most of the 1 novel that I struggled with. I would wholeheartedly disagree with everyone who thinks that BL puts out utter trash. I mean, if you really think that, why the hell even bother? 
I do think that I am just an easy to please reader. But shit, if that means that I enjoy 99% of the stuff I read? Fuck yeah. Since reading(both BL and otherwise) is my favourite past-time? Fuck yeah again. I don't get the whole negativity thing. I mean, is it cool to say Kyme sucks or something? I mean, some of you one here have been doing nothing but post stuff bitching and moaning about anything that isn't abnett or adb(both of which, I do enjoy, but not any more than some of the other authors). Which is completely fine too. If those are the ONLY authors you like, good for you. I feel kinda bad for ya, since you are limiting what you enjoy and only getting a tiny fraction of the enjoyment people like me or LotN are getting out of BL. But hey, if you want to hate everything, that's cool too. 
I have a buddy who does the same thing with video games. Every single video game is shit that isn't made by _____. And I enjoy many more games than my friend, and spend a lot less time complaining


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

The Scion of Chemos said:


> I think you need to realize that people have different opinions than you.


I think you need to realise that I do...



The Scion of Chemos said:


> I usually write my reviews, which are just on goodreads and only read by a tiny handful of individuals, the same way. I mostly write what I liked, and try and mention what I think took away from the book. In some cases, the books earn a perfect 5 stars, and there are no negatives(FOR ME), and my reviews reflect such. I really don't give two shits what YOU think about _____ novel by ______ author. What you might think is bad, I might love. Plus, as many reviews as I read, I like to make my own opinions


Umm...OK? 

Why are you getting so worked up? Are you Lord of the Night's sock puppet? 

If you're not a sock puppet, I "don't give two sh*ts" about your reviews because I've never read them. How are your reviews relevant to this discussion?

Lord of the Night publishes his reviews on sites for Black Library reviews. His style of reviewing is one the reasons I don't read Founding Fields reviews any more. However, I do think Bellisarius is a great reviewer, though I think he's a bit too critical. However, he at least covers both pros and cons.


----------



## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

I agree that all the novellas, audio dramas etc etc are too much, and I'm really not a fan of the short stories books either, but I think there is a lot that isn't covered in the heresy so far, and I would like to see it continue for quite some time.

I used to read dragonlance books and had a LOT of their books, but the more it goes on the poorer the work seems to get as they run out of ideas. I don't think we are there yet with HH but silly little tangent lines are annoying.


----------



## Kuat (Aug 11, 2014)

can anyone please explain what a "Novella" is ?

is it a small book? is it graphic book (comics)?

how is it different from regular books from the series?


----------



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Kuat said:


> can anyone please explain what a "Novella" is ?
> 
> is it a small book? is it graphic book (comics)?
> 
> how is it different from regular books from the series?


A novella is essentially longer than a short story but smaller than a novel. Usually they run at a hundred pages or so


----------

