# The worst scrap in the Heresy (Outcast dead spoilers)



## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

Tagore and Uttam. 

Absolutely ridiculous. I know this is a universe where man travel across the stars to fight with swords, but please...this is a custodian?! The Emperors Finest! And we was torn a new one by a legion Sergent. 

Almost ruined the book which I thought was one of the best of the whole series (Kai was a really good character, with a bit of subtly rarely seen)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

thebinman said:


> Tagore and Uttam.
> 
> Absolutely ridiculous. I know this is a universe where man travel across the stars to fight with swords, but please...this is a custodian?! The Emperors Finest! And we was torn a new one by a legion Sergent.
> 
> Almost ruined the book which I thought was one of the best of the whole series (Kai was a really good character, with a bit of subtly rarely seen)


Well in Blood Games by Dan Abnett, it's clearly stated that custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Astartes and that attempting to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes would be foolish 

ADB has said that Vendatha (from The First Heretic) is very elite even for a custodes 

furthermore, *the physical prowess of the custodes killed by Tagore is just below the minimum for frontline duty*
(admittedly, the custodes has the advantages of being armed and armoured...perhaps McNeill got carried away?)


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

Also didn't like the way Uttam was presented as some sort of loser Custodes, thats why he goes and looks after the most dangerous prisoners on Earth....these men are supposed to be superhuman, you wouldnt keep a 99% perfect specimen. Abnett could have just had the three of them dishing out the slaying, not just one. 

...Abnett tried to explain it away saying the cream were on their way to Prospero but then how did they manage to keep the webway shut if only the dregs were left (could have been the sisters I suppose) 

The 1000 sons character was pretty cool.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

thebinman said:


> Also didn't like the way Uttam was presented as some sort of loser Custodes, thats why he goes and looks after the most dangerous prisoners on Earth....these men are supposed to be superhuman, you wouldnt keep a 99% perfect specimen. Abnett could have just had the three of them dishing out the slaying, not just one.
> 
> ...Abnett tried to explain it away saying the cream were on their way to Prospero but then how did they manage to keep the webway shut if only the dregs were left (could have been the sisters I suppose)
> 
> The 1000 sons character was pretty cool.


Abnett?


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Abnett?


, McNeill of course.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was actually quite surprised at how Custodians had been portrayed thus far. They almost erase the idea, that they are almost equals.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

For me Custodians went off with a kick-arse start in _Blood Games_ as befitted their reputation, but in some other novels have been made almost comically bad. They were good again in _The First Heretic_ but even then i was disapointed in Aquilons death for how anti-climactic it was, though Sythran made up for it with his Crowning Moment of Awesome exit soon after. 

_The Outcast Dead_ however was possibly the worst instance of them going. I realise Uttam was _just_ under frontline duty standard and that Tagore was a World Eater sergeant complete with the butchers nails, but ffs Uttam was fully armoured and armed with his Guardian Spear. I've heard it reasoned out in many ways now as people attempt to explain it, but all of them just sound a bit limp really. Saturnalia similarly was a bit shit, one minute he's holding the two World Eaters off, then when he managed to bring it down to just one, he gets brought down pretty damn easily. 

On another note, am I the only one who thought it odd that the field holidng the prison platform afloat wasn't cut the moment Uttam died. They thought about the possibilty of the guards being taken out enough to have all the guns in the walls unleash hell if they were killed, but didn't think to cut the power to the island at the same time. 

Meh, the book in general was just full of clumsy mistakes and questionable scenes.


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## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> _The Outcast Dead_ however was possibly the worst instance of them going. I realise Uttam was _just_ under frontline duty standard and that Tagore was a World Eater sergeant complete with the butchers nails, but ffs Uttam was fully armoured and armed with his Guardian Spear. I've heard it reasoned out in many ways now as people attempt to explain it, but all of them just sound a bit limp really. Saturnalia similarly was a bit shit, one minute he's holding the two World Eaters off, then when he managed to bring it down to just one, he gets brought down pretty damn easily.


I agree with this. It was completely ham handed and stinks of retcon. We even had the comment that Constatin Valdor has unsheathed his sword which sounds like it is more of an event to marvel than just a passing comment. Even the quote above, about slightly larger and stronger...why are we having a problem predicting who would win again? They were breed and meant for different things. Shouldn't the personal protectors the emperor of mankind be the greatest fighters in the galaxy? Of course they should, the retcon and portrayal is just foolish at this point. :angry:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Custodian in question suffered from a drawback that went beyond a simple "below front line standards" bit. His weakness was in his reflexes. Add to that the fact that it was already qualified that a Custodes is not necessarily stronger/tougher, and you're talking about more than being slightly sub-par.

Yes, he was armored. But Tagore was acting in a berserk frenzy, to a point where he was virtually immune to pain.

I don't think Tagore _beating_ Uttam was the problem... it was perhaps the whole _punching through ceramite_ bit - reinforced bones or not. Had Tagore been using a valid melee weapon, though? I would not have batted an eye - given everything the authors have been telling us (in- and out-of-story) thus far.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree with Pheobus, Tagore (or indeed any suitably skilled/experienced/berserk) astartes defeating a 'sub par' Custodes in no way shocks me. The over the top nature of his defeat though and the fact that Tagore was unarmed whilst Uttam was fully armed and armoured is the problem and stretches my suspension of disbelief. 

Hell, why didn't he just shoot the berserk astartes charging right at him?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

when I asked for the source of the claim that custodes to SM is as SM to guardsman, another member kindly pointed out that it was an old White Dwarf blurb 

Blood Games (Tales of Heresy) is fairly recent. I suppose Abnett "retconned" the above concept. In a way, I think Abnett's quote




> They were not like custodes at all. Like cousins, perhaps, like kin from the same bloodline, the custodes and the Astartes were similar but distinct. The custodes were the product of an older, formative process, a process, some said, that had been refined and simplified to produce the Astartes en masse. Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.
> The greatest differences lay in the mind. Though custodes shared a familial bond through the circles of their order, it was nothing like the keen brotherhood that cemented the Legions of the Astartes. Custodes were far more solitary beings: sentinels, watchmen, destined to stand forever, alone.



makes more sense. I believe primarchs to SM are as SM to guardsmen. Custodes should be somewhat above SM. If I must draw a ratio, I'd say 1.5-2 SM = 1 custodes. 

Anway, I think Abnett's idea is that the greatest difference between custodes and SM is in mindsets. Mentally, SM are instinctive teamplayers (wolves), whereas custodes are solitary hunters (lions). 

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal could never beat Aquillon in sparring (except once). However, the main reason could've been difference in skill, rather than any inherent superiority of custodes. After all Lokken could never beat Lucius (except once).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

How about how the mortals were able to fight on even grounds with the SM? Even if they were injured. Even if they had the advantage of being a blank, that still doesn't make sense. It should have been over in half a second. A SM's strength is so overwhelming you would have no chance in parrying (much less blocking) an attack. And they're fast enough to overwhelm any mortal's defense. Made me sick.

That and all the Custodes getting owned in full battle plate against a bunch of half-armed SM and I was pretty miffed about how the fights rolled out.

The self-pitying, weak main character didn't help either.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> How about how the mortals were able to fight on even grounds with the SM? Even if they were injured. Even if they had the advantage of being a blank, that still doesn't make sense. It should have been over in half a second. A SM's strength is so overwhelming you would have no chance in parrying (much less blocking) an attack. And they're fast enough to overwhelm any mortal's defense. Made me sick.
> 
> That and all the Custodes getting owned in full battle plate against a bunch of half-armed SM and I was pretty miffed about how the fights rolled out.
> 
> The self-pitying, weak main character didn't help either.


I don't know. To be honest, I kind of liked the World Eaters getting a boost in the Heresy. 

Let's think about this, the World Eaters are bread to be the best close combat warriors of the astartes. However, thats pretty much about it. Especially since putting in the "Butcher's Nails." And though they may have no equal in close combat, they lack for it in many other levels. For example, they lack a lot of battle tactic and effectiveness. Because they are so head strong, they often lose a lot of their astartes because their tactic is just to charge at the enemy, no matter the casualty rate.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'd be willing to wager that the biggest difference between Astartes and Custodes - when it comes to effectiveness - is the amount of time that is put into training each of them.

An Astartes might go some decades before earning enough experience to become a Sergeant. A Custodes probably goes through a similar amount of time before being considered a true companion of the Emperor.

Tagore was NOT just a Sergeant. Remember, he is ALREADY a Sergeant when Angron was found. Guess who he has an encounter with? A young _warrior_ (note the lack of rank) named Skraal... Who in "Battle for the Abyss" has reached the rank of _Captain._ Tagore might have been a nut-job, but he had put serious time in the Astartes. One can assume that, had he not been with the Crusade Host, he, too, would have been Captain - or more!

Conjecture follows.

Uttam is compromised by his reduced reflexes. He manages to wound Tagore, but I think it goes without saying that if the Storm-Sergeant been properly armed and armoured, Uttam would have been dispatched with far greater ease.

Similarly, while it's clear that Saturnalia is superior to either Subha or Asubha (though not both at the same time), he possesses a clear advantage in that the World Eaters lack armour. The hits he dishes out against the twins are against unarmoured (though still enhanced) flesh and bone. The hits they unleash on him are mitigated by his armour (on three different occasions). I don't think Subha OR Asubha alone could have taken out a Custodian of such superior experience, but had they been wearing their Mk IV power armour... I seriously doubt Asubha would have felt the need to kill Saturnalia while in the process committing suicide (leaving himself open for the kill).

All this, IMHO, goes right in line with what Mr. Abnett proposed in "Blood Games".


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't know. To be honest, I kind of liked the World Eaters getting a boost in the Heresy.
> 
> Let's think about this, the World Eaters are bread to be the best close combat warriors of the astartes. However, thats pretty much about it. Especially since putting in the "Butcher's Nails." And though they may have no equal in close combat, they lack for it in many other levels. For example, they lack a lot of battle tactic and effectiveness. Because they are so head strong, they often lose a lot of their astartes because their tactic is just to charge at the enemy, no matter the casualty rate.


I disagree with the World Eaters lacking strategy. It's a matter of weighing benefits differently.

The Iron Warriors with 1000 Space Marines may take 3 months to take a fortress with the loss of 8 Space Marines.

A thousand World Eaters would take the same fortress in a day and a half and lose 60 Space Marines.

Which is better? Depends on your lines of logistics and how much man power you're able to expend. 

Different Legions for different situations.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I liked the outcast dead. And I found myself wondering if perhaps a certain Natharn Durme, was reborn as Malcador the Sigillite.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

thebinman said:


> Also didn't like the way Uttam was presented as some sort of loser Custodes, thats why he goes and looks after the most dangerous prisoners on Earth....these men are supposed to be superhuman, you wouldnt keep a 99% perfect specimen. Abnett could have just had the three of them dishing out the slaying, not just one.
> 
> ...*Abnett* tried to explain it away saying the cream were on their way to Prospero but then how did they manage to keep the webway shut if only the dregs were left (could have been the sisters I suppose)


McNeil did not say the cream of the Custodes were on their way to Prospero, only _Signifcant levels of the Legio's operational strength_. There would still be very capable guardians left to protect the Emperor.

I don't think that Uttam was presented as a loser. Remember, before Amon Tauromachian Leng's attempt in _Blood Games_, Uttam got the closest to the Emperor. That makes him pretty damn good in my book! 

Tagore was a worthy opponent for Uttam. Prior to his capture, he had apparently killed three hundred and fifty nine men (until the pile of bodies overwhelmed him!! :laugh. That skill and violence mixed with battle stimms and his veteran status makes him a very tough character indeed.
Whether he could punch through Custodes armour... well that is a matter for another debate. I thought it was highly unlikely, but, I think that Tagore could have beaten a Custodes in a fist fight.

I agree with a previous post. As soon as the bells started to ring, the island should have been dropped into the abyiss.

A damn fine book so far though


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Rems said:


> Hell, why didn't he just shoot the berserk astartes charging right at him?


He was probably in the mood for Berserker-kebab with his spear. Nah, I've gotta read the book before I can judge a Custodes' appetite.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

This book was a bit this and that for me. I really liked the fact that it was not pure bolter porn, and instead had a lot on stuff like Astropaths, but I bloody hated the portrayal of the Custodes. In my book they are above how they performed in this one.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

A World Eater being able to punch with more penetrative force than a kraken or vengeance bolter round is the least of that book's problems. 

Good to know it can be done tho, they should use his gene-seed to make a legion of dudes they just thow at the enemy naked and unarmed, think of all the money you spare not giving them equipment. Shame for all the out-of-work lascannon gunners tho.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Doelago said:


> This book was a bit this and that for me. I really liked the fact that it was not pure bolter porn, and instead had a lot on stuff like Astropaths, but I bloody hated the portrayal of the Custodes. In my book they are above how they performed in this one.


I agree. The Custodes don't come off well in this one. It has sort of blown the myth for me.

And is it just me, but who proof-read this book? Whoever did should be sacked. The numbers of mistakes are incredible. I stopped reading at one point and checked where McNeil came from, thinking his native language was NOT English. ‘Says’… ‘Said’.

Good book though…


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Mob said:


> A World Eater being able to punch with more penetrative force than a kraken or vengeance bolter round is the least of that book's problems.
> 
> Good to know it can be done tho, they should use his gene-seed to make a legion of dudes they just thow at the enemy naked and unarmed, think of all the money you spare not giving them equipment. Shame for all the out-of-work lascannon gunners tho.


I just looked at the numbers in Black Crusade, its pretty easy for Tagore to punch through armor. Getting 1D10+15(before even adding in whatever is rage cybernetics do) isn't difficult. Call it full value of 25+ against armor 8 & toughness 8, still doing 9 wounds. Not a earthshattering amount but take 2 or 3 of those and no ones getting up again. If you used any previous game system it would result in another D10 of damage being done, so that hit is "just perfect" & gets another 10 followed by a 6. Now you are looking at 41 damage total, with 22-28 wounds no one is going to be okay after that. 

Nathan


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Please don't try and apply game rules into fluff, it just doesn't work and is daft.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Another factor could possibly be is that the Custodian is trying to take in the full situation, he's got to see how many enemys are coming and what they're doing. This is a World Eater he's fighting, he is solely focused on killing this man, it may only take a half second distraction for the custode to fully get his bearings but we always read about marines using that tiniest of little distractions.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

@Cowlicker16

I really doubt that. It is more likely that the author used the Custode in order to show the World eater's strength. I mean before I started seeing the Custodes in HH novels I believed the incorporated the best of all the legions in them.

By no means I expected all the Custodes to take on a Legion by themsleves but I believed they put a fight worthy enough that the legion will not even dare consider it as their victory.

What I expected was every Custode, no matter who it is, to be on par with any astarte except maybe a few of them in one-on-one, irrespective of the field of contest.


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Please don't try and apply game rules into fluff, it just doesn't work and is daft.


So dismiss a logical argument with a passing insult? LONG LIVE PHYSICS!!!!! 

How this for "fluff"? Lucien!!! He could out fight a top-tier custodes with a sword, fighting a high end world eater(while a sargent that was only cause he was Terran, he was already a sargent when angron was found) would destroy bare handed an unimportant & reduced functioning custodes would violate every piece of fluff ever written in over 30+ years bout the world eaters. All this space marine custodes is very new on the other hand
Nathan


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

zuul88 said:


> So dismiss a logical argument with a passing insult? Go thumb your palm, d-bag!!!!!!!!!
> 
> How this for "fluff"? Lucien!!! He could out fight a top-tier custodes with a sword, fighting a high end world eater(while a sargent that was only cause he was Terran, he was already a sargent when angron was found) would destroy bare handed an unimportant & reduced functioning custodes would violate every piece of fluff ever written in over 30+ years bout the world eaters. All this space marine custodes is very new on the other hand
> Nathan


Stop, take a moment and cool down. This is fluff, so game mechanics are irrelevant to almost every discussion, including this one. 

Lashing out at other members for pointing out what is obvious will not end well, I assure you. Personal attacks are a violation of the forum rules, and you are not far off it.

So leave it at that, and lose this attitude for future posts.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

I've been away for a while, engaged in a furious battle with real life. It's good to be back though.

Let me say, since I was away when it happened, _*CONGRATULATIONS*_ *Serpion5* for being made a mod! You deserve it! :biggrin:


*BOT:*
I too had a problem with Uttam and Tagore. Not that Tagore won, but that he punched a hole through Custode battle armor with his bare fist while unaugmented. I think the Abnett quote graciously provided by *MontytheMighty* puts to rest the argument of who's better. On average (there are always exceptions) a Custode is reasonably equal to an Astarte. 

Tagore had the butcher's nails and Uttam was damaged and unfit for front line duty. It makes sense that he could take him, except for one small problem. I'm not a physics major, but how strong would someone's bones need to be (especially the easy to break bones located in the hands and wrist) to withstand being driven through armored battle plate? 

Just seems far fetched to me. Since when is bone (even awesome genetically enhanced Astartes bone) stronger than armored plate? Wouldn't a punch with that amount of force behind it simply have resulted in Tagore shattering every bone in his hand, wrist, and forearm? 

To me this seems to be a bit of sloppy writing, in an otherwise highly entertaining story. I think it would have made infinite more sense to have had Tagore incapacitate Uttam through some other means, rip off his chest plate, punch his hand through Uttam's unprotected gut, and rip out his spine predator style in a roar of victory!












.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Agreed with much of comments. Re-read this today. As others have said, I have no problem with a an Astartes beating a Custodian in a duel but the combination of Tagore punching through such "artificer-forged plate" armour and having no weapons or armour himself kinda stretches it beyond belief. If he had gone for something less protected (maybe the neck?) that would be more passable, and still allowed Atharva to have gotten up to his tricks.

As for Saturnalia battle with Subha and Asuhba, more believable as the ways they were killed aren't quite so controversial and it described how both brothers tried to go about penetrating the armour and create a weak point. That the brothers out-number the Custodian was kinda balanced by his vastly superior equipping.


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Stop, take a moment and cool down. This is fluff, so game mechanics are irrelevant to almost every discussion, including this one.
> 
> Lashing out at other members for pointing out what is obvious will not end well, I assure you. Personal attacks are a violation of the forum rules, and you are not far off it.
> 
> So leave it at that, and lose this attitude for future posts.



So he can call me daft & that's not an insult or attack?!?!? So he can call me stupid & unthinking, but I use an actual 40k "fluff" expression w/ a censored adjective, n get my post edited & reprimanded?!?!?!?

Bunch of Nurglites!!!!!!


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I would like to chime in. I myself found it a little disagreeable that Tagore punched threw the battle plate. However, as other people have said not only was Tagore a super badass astartes, who was stated to be larger and more muscular then the other IRRC, but he also had the Butchers NAils. 
I think in this instance, Tagore with the Butchers Nails could be compared to those people you hear about who are on PCP and have to be restrained by like 6 people even though they weigh in at like 130 lbs, or who lift cars and perfom crazy feats of strength. If I where to compare it to real life, iwould say Tagore in full battle mode is like a person on artificial adrenaline, speed, cocaine to numb senses and pain, and pcp, also steroids, with the addition of being Super strong and skilled in close combat. Assuming that this person didnt jsut die automatically from so much stuff courseing through their system, they would be insane in close combat i wouldnt doubt that a person like that could punch through some insane stuff that isnt humanly possible normally.


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

doofyoofy said:


> I would like to chime in. I myself found it a little disagreeable that Tagore punched threw the battle plate. However, as other people have said not only was Tagore a super badass astartes, who was stated to be larger and more muscular then the other IRRC, but he also had the Butchers NAils.
> I think in this instance, Tagore with the Butchers Nails could be compared to those people you hear about who are on PCP and have to be restrained by like 6 people even though they weigh in at like 130 lbs, or who lift cars and perfom crazy feats of strength. If I where to compare it to real life, iwould say Tagore in full battle mode is like a person on artificial adrenaline, speed, cocaine to numb senses and pain, and pcp, also steroids, with the addition of being Super strong and skilled in close combat. Assuming that this person didnt jsut die automatically from so much stuff courseing through their system, they would be insane in close combat i wouldnt doubt that a person like that could punch through some insane stuff that isnt humanly possible normally.


Exactly, everybody's been saying he was unaugmented(at least equipment) but he still had the butchers nails, the Emperor reprimanded Angron & told him to stop using them. He didn't listen of course but they were truly powerful implants. As for as "bones breaking against battle plate" look at martial arts. The more you do it the harder your bones become through the healing of the micro-fracturing. The 2 brothers who hold almost all the Guinness book of world records for Breaking (ice, bricks, concrete) also have the record for hardest bones in the world. They did a whole show on Fight Science about them, there's bones are almost 4 times as dense as a average persons.

So how strong would a World Eater space marine who been in the Crusades for two centuries be? That's there specialty, Close Combat, getting involved with one can only end in your death. Even with massive handicaps Tagore would still be so much better then the custodes its laughable that anyone would think he shouldn't/couldn't win.

Nathan

P.S. Am I allowed to use actual physics on the application of force & the effects on the anatomy that training in specific areas will produce in the "fluff" forum or does that make me DAFT as well?


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

zuul88 said:


> So he can call me daft & that's not an insult or attack?!?!? So he can call me stupid & unthinking, but I use an actual 40k "fluff" expression w/ a censored adjective, n get my post edited & reprimanded?!?!?!?
> 
> Bunch of Nurglites!!!!!!


*zuul88,* I see you're rather new here to Heresy, so let me extend the hand of greeting and welcome you. Just a piece of advice, it's always good to listen to a moderator. Here's a link to the list of all the forum's moderators. You can normally always tell a moderator by the color of their name as it appears above their avatar. Yellow = moderator, Orange = senior moderator, and red = site administrator. 

As a modeerator, *Serpion5* has been given authority on this forum to make sure it runs properly and follows the forum rules. So when he asks you to take a moment to "stop and cool down," it would be wise to take his advice. Calling names and making personal attacks are against forum rules. You're calling names, not to mention ranting and yelling (using multiple exclamation points "!!!!!!" or "!?!?!?" etc.) in a second post right after you've been warned about your previous post, is a sure fire way to get into trouble.


At no point did *Angel of Blood* call you stupid or unthinking. He kindly asked you to please not apply game rules in a conversation about fluff. He then said that doing such a thing "doesn't work and is daft." Note that he called the process of applying game rules to a fluff conversation daft, not you yourself. So telling *Angel of Blood* to "Go thumb your palm, d-bag!!!!!!!!!" and then yelling at and calling both *Angel of Blood* and *Serpion5* (a moderator) a "Bunch of Nurglites!!!!!!" is a bad idea. 

Besides, both *Angel of Blood* and *Serpion5* are not only long standing members who've both contributed tons over the years (*3,101* posts w/ *1589* reputation and *6,732* posts w/ *2272* reputation respectively), but they're both really nice guys. So maybe someone who's just starting on this forum with *24* posts and *1* reputation, can cut them a little slack and show them some respect. 

Perhaps a kindly worded question back to *Angel of Blood *such as, "I don't understand, why do you think it's silly to apply game rules to a conversation about fluff? I personally feel it's very relevant." would have been more in order.



*BOT*


zuul88 said:


> Exactly, everybody's been saying he was unaugmented(at least equipment) but he still had the butchers nails, the Emperor reprimanded Angron & told him to stop using them. He didn't listen of course but they were truly powerful implants. As for as "bones breaking against battle plate" look at martial arts. The more you do it the harder your bones become through the healing of the micro-fracturing. The 2 brothers who hold almost all the Guinness book of world records for Breaking (ice, bricks, concrete) also have the record for hardest bones in the world. They did a whole show on Fight Science about them, there's bones are almost 4 times as dense as a average persons.


I have absolutely no doubt that Astartes bones are strong, but if you think about it, if they were as strong as battle armor they would have no need to wear battle armor. Their fused rib cage could go unprotected and survive being shot by anything their battle armor could survive... or in the case of Uttam, anything his artificer armor could survive. Now clearly you're not saying an Astartes bones are stronger than battle plate (again in this case, artificer quality battle plate), but they would need to be to penetrate that armor. 

Even in martial arts there are limits to what a man can do. This is why they break wood, ice, and plain unreinforced cinder blocks. You never see them punching/kicking through solid steel, or cinder blocks after they've been properly reinforced with concrete and steel rebar. Why? Because they would bust every bone in their hands and feet. 

Does an Astartes have limits set much higher than mortal man? Absolutely, it's one of the very basic tenets of the 40K universe. However, even then, there are still limits to what the physical body of an Astartes can and couldn't do/can and couldn't handle. It's why they still wear power armor into battle, why they have to be transported via space craft in outer space, and why they can be killed. It is these limits being discussed in the battle between Tagore and Uttam (i.e. could Tagore have punched his bare fist through Uttam's artificer armor or couldn't he?). 






zuul88 said:


> P.S. Am I allowed to use actual physics on the application of force & the effects on the anatomy that training in specific areas will produce in the "fluff" forum or does that make me DAFT as well?


I'd say yes and no. 

Science fiction often includes situations, realities, weapons, devices, etc. that could potentially someday become reality. Genetically engineered super soldiers, portable handheld guns that fire pop can sized rocket propelled munitions, mankind spread out all over the galaxy on life supporting planets could all very much become reality. 

However, sci-fi often also includes elements which (most likely) do not and will not exist. An alternate mirror dimension in which our emotions coalesce into sentient beings, special naturally occurring mutations that allow trained individuals to create powerful shields, pulp an opponents internal organs, and shoot fire/lightning from their finger tips, are all a bit fantastical. However, while it is precisely these kind of things that make science fiction so entertaining, trying to apply actual science to them (for the most part) would seem a bit (as we say on this side of the pond  ) silly. 

Concerning Tagore and Uttam however, I think a discussion of physics would be just fine. Genetic engineering, chemical stimulants, heightened reflexes, and body armor are all things we know and understand today, and unless the author explains how the laws of physics have been suspended (i.e. Tagore picked up a device from one of the mind controlled prison guards that allowed his fist to phase through Uttams armor and grab his spine, etc.) we assume they are in existence and relevant. 

I think this is at the heart of the OP's frustration (or at least part of it anyway). He feels the author didn't exercise due diligence in writing this battle sequence and ignored reality without telling us how it could be ignored (i.e. a special device or the world eaters experimenting with bonding super metals to bone which allows them to punch bare fists through armor, etc.).





.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I think Tagore and around 30 well trained guardsmen fighting Uttam and in the end Atharva exacting a little psychic restraint to slow down if not bind Uttam as he about to kill Tagore and Tagore taking this chance and killing Uttam is what I would have liked to happen.


I believe they should make a collection of short stories ( like Age of Darkness ) with the Point-of-View of the Custodians in all the settings we have seen them till now. This can actually paint a brighter picture and satisfy many.

I am a DA fan myself and I really have no problem with a single Custode killing at least a handful of Astarte before getting killed not because of some lapse in defence or judgement but due to the sheer number of Astarte. I have always believed Custodian to be far better than Astartes; Else why will the Emperor even bother making them his personal guard ?


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

@uberork- yeah I flew off the handle a little yesterday, I was wrong. I had to sit through some **** and had to be semi-civil. I can on here & ranted which was childish.

But back to the OPs point, is tyranid chitin "harder" the power armor? I was just pointing out first w/game mechanics then the martial arts reference that there's more to it then just how "hard" something is. Its about the proper application of force as well, a bolter round thrown at power armor isn't going to penetrate it, but will if it's shot. I agree that The Emperor's Children probably couldn't do but that a World Eater could. But that could just be how I want to see the World Eaters shown, just as the OP doesn't want even a defective Custodes to be shown. Maybe Khorne gifted him with that w/o his knowledge, since by existing outside of time as we know it they see all time.

Nathan


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

To the above point made by uber ork about not needing power armor because their skin and bones are already armor iahve several points. 
1) Certain armors have certain properties. Example, modern SAPI plates are clay, and have been reportted to stop 7 7.62 mil round fired from close range from a PKM in some of the tests of the plates. However, in the military u are told and taught not to drop these plates as they will easily shatter or develop hairline fractures that will make them a lot less effective. So it stands to reason that repeated blows can puncture said armor even though it will stop fairly large caliber rounds. The point being that in SM armor and Custodian armor must stop more than jsut physiacal damages types, they must stop heat based weapons as well and lasers, which might be the same as the above, providing more general all around protection at the cost of being more fragile in the case of physical blunt damage through fists or feet or w/e else.
2) Old school flak armor from vietnam or the gulf war where designed to stop frag and light caliber bullets but where fairly asily punctered by knives and other sharp objects and also though it is a lot harder you could aslo deliver blunt trauma through them, ir punch and kick and the person receinvg would still take damage.
3) in the case of Space Marine and Custodian armor, it serves a purpose more than jsut protection, it has clips and mag plates to hold weapons and ammo and gear, protects against environmental factors, and is NBC capable, as well as boosting strength. Even if it didnt have ANY protection value in terms of enemy weapons, it would still be very usefull to have. Its an added bonus that it also protects from enemy weapons fire.
4) I do not remeber where I read this, perhaps someone else knows or maybe i am misremembering, but IRRC somewhere it said that the black carapace and such could realy only stop a limited number of human style weapons, ie. autogun ammo, limited las fire, ect. but not Astartes style weapons. my point being that both that they would still need armor, and that they have super tough parts of the body.
5)Lastly there are both Muay Tai practitioners and shaolin monks who can perfom crazy feats of breaking. Inthe case of muay tai they can KICK through INCHES thick banana trees. There are similar stories of monks doing similar feats with spears and weapons and armor. A SPace Marine would be able to do this to the nth degree, and then you add on top of that a World Eater, who is not only bigger and larger and more muscular than most Space MArines( I am referring to Tagore), but also IRRC says he only respects strength and so whereas other SM might work to be more well rounded than just the biggest and strongest and most badass, he does not. His only focus is to become the strongest and best at close combat. Add this to the Butchers nails, the fact that he self professes that he believes he will die anyway after killingg Utam and hates him normally on top of whatever craziness the Butchers Nail adds, and he is going to give it 120%.

on a related note, it jsut occured to me that there have been severla threads about how Powered Armor has weakness at the stomach and lower sternum regions in order to allow movement of the body, perhaps this where he punched through? I cannot recal exactly from the story. i do remember he pulls out Utams spine ala Predater action which even if over the top is an awsome image. He could have punched through the weaker belly or lower sternum armor and reched through to the spine from the lower abdomen, as opposed to when i initially thought about it i picted him punching through the breastplate.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I loved this fight, yes Tagore was lucky to have won, but remember they mentioned that the cust' was injured so his reactions were slower.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Personally, I had no issue with Tagore's victory. I've offered my thoughts on this before, but on the issue of him punching through Uttam's armour, I'd like to offer a couple of points.

1. Here is the text from Codex: Angels of Death on protective properties of MkVII Power Armour. To my knowledge, nothing as definitive has been shown in a subsequent Codex.



> _The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium._


Even in terms of fluff, I think it's fair to accept that Astartes don't just rely on their power armour to remain invincible - that's more the realm of Terminator armour. It's a combination of their superhuman reflexes, their enhanced speed, their body's ability to shrug off/heal debilitating wounds, and their devastating weaponry - in conjunction with their power armour - that allows them to survive. But again, in terms of fluff, we routinely see Astartes armour being compromised by the "lucky" lasgun shot or what have you.

With that in mind...

2. Tagore possesses enhanced strength, "a tremendously strong and fast-healing skeleton", and a neural/cybernetic implant that's giving him berserker rage and allows him to ignore pain.

Given all this, I can see how in close combat an exceptional Astartes' strongest blow might have effects equivalent to something approaching a small arms caliber's impact.

3. To answer Uber Ork's question, power armour is still necessary because an Astartes could still be quickly crippled, regardless of protection offered by their skeletal structure. Their musculature, eyes, ears, tendons, ligaments, etc., are all still exposed. Power Armour, which can counter most of the effects of even direct hits by bolters, lasguns, etc., will protect (probably completely) by the "secondary" harmful effects of the battlefield: concussion, shrapnel, etc.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

zuul88 said:


> @uberork- yeah I flew off the handle a little yesterday, I was wrong. I had to sit through some **** and had to be semi-civil. I can on here & ranted which was childish.


No worries, that kind of stuff happens to us all. 





zuul88 said:


> I was just pointing out first w/game mechanics then the martial arts reference that there's more to it then just how "hard" something is. Its about the proper application of force as well, a bolter round thrown at power armor isn't going to penetrate it, but will if it's shot.


Don't you think using a comparison of power armor verses ammunition designed to penetrate armor, is a bit different than artificer armor verses an Astartes bare fist? That seems like comparing apples to oranges to me. I think an apples to apples comparison would be to look at different types of armor verses different types of armor piercing weaponry, or... different individual's bare fists verses different individual's bare chests.

Force can drive a bullet shot from a high powered rifle strait through a house (depending on what it hit on its way through), but not through an armored vehicle. I'm not a physicist, and I know I'm oversimplifying things, but even if you could produce enough force... somethings would never have enough "hardness" to penetrate armor. For instance, could you ever produce enough force for a marshmallow, toothpick, gummy bear, or green pea to penetrate even the most rudimentary suit of medieval armored plate? Never. And why is that? For the same reason a martial artist will never (with his bare fist) be able to punch through a solid piece of steel. 





zuul88 said:


> I agree that The Emperor's Children probably couldn't do but that a World Eater could. But that could just be how I want to see the World Eaters shown, just as the OP doesn't want even a defective Custodes to be shown. Maybe Khorne gifted him with that w/o his knowledge, since by existing outside of time as we know it they see all time.


I can understand that. You have in your mind's eye what the world eaters are capable of. I think we all have a vision of what we think they should be like. For me, I would tone it down a bit from where you have it. 

As I said in an earlier post, I have absolutely no problem with Tagore beating Uttam. I simply don't see how him punching his bare fist through a Custode's artificer armor could be done. In the normal world of physics, it can't. Unless the author gives some reasonable explanation of why the laws of physics should be suspended (i.e. "Khorne gifted him w/o his knowledge," he had a special piece of technology, or something else) they'd still be in effect for the 41st millennium. In keeping with the laws of physics, I would have much preferred Tagore to...


Uber Ork said:


> incapacitate Uttam through some other means, rip off his chest plate, punch his hand through Uttam's unprotected gut, and rip out his spine predator style in a roar of victory!












Sorry... had to post that image again. It's just so awesome! 






*@ doofyoofy*


doofyoofy said:


> To the above point made by uber ork about not needing power armor because their skin and bones are already armor


Just to be clear, I wasn't saying their bones or fused rib cage is as strong or stronger than power armor. I was saying most definitely they are not. I was attempting to explain this by pointing out, if their bones were stronger than power armor, they would need to wear it for protection. It was simply my attempt at hyperbole to show why an Astartes would never go into battle without his power armor (unless like the Outcast Dead of course, they had no choice). The fact is, power armor (and even more so artificer armor) offers greater protection and is more resilient than an Astarte's enhanced skeletal structure. Logic clearly dictates this, or they wouldn't bother to wear it into battle. 






doofyoofy said:


> 1) Certain armors have certain properties. Example, modern SAPI plates are clay, and have been reportted to stop 7 7.62 mil round fired from close range from a PKM in some of the tests of the plates. However, in the military u are told and taught not to drop these plates as they will easily shatter or develop hairline fractures that will make them a lot less effective. So it stands to reason that repeated blows can puncture said armor even though it will stop fairly large caliber rounds.


Ok, I get what you're saying, but doesn't it also stand to reason that repeated blows would also be damaging (even more so) to the bones in Tagore's hand and wrist? Doesn't it stand to reason that Tagore's bones would give out long before Uttam's artificer armor (designed to stop, mind you, all but the most powerful weapons)? 





doofyoofy said:


> 2) Old school flak armor from vietnam or the gulf war where designed to stop frag and light caliber bullets but where fairly asily punctered by knives and other sharp objects and also though it is a lot harder you could aslo deliver blunt trauma through them, ir punch and kick and the person receinvg would still take damage.


Yes, this is one of my two points. The first of which is, I believe it would be physically impossible to ram flesh and bone strait through artificer armored plate (which is what happened... Uttam didn't die from blunt trauma, but from having Tagore punch his fist strait through his armor and rip out his spine), and second, that Tagore's bones in his hand and wrist would have given out long before Uttam's armor. I agree Tagore wouldn't have felt the pain (due to the butcher's nails and normal Astarte pain blocking physiology), but his hand would have been mush and unable to punch through Custode armor, much less be useful any longer for grabbing Uttam's spine and ripping it out.





doofyoofy said:


> 3) in the case of Space Marine and Custodian armor, it serves a purpose more than jsut protection, it has clips and mag plates to hold weapons and ammo and gear, protects against environmental factors, and is NBC capable, as well as boosting strength. Even if it didnt have ANY protection value in terms of enemy weapons, it would still be very usefull to have. Its an added bonus that it also protects from enemy weapons fire.


True, but soldiers were strapping extra ammo clips to their utility belts long before power armor was invented, and space marines are physiologically immune to most toxins (the pre-heresy death guard drank poisons just for fun). And remember, the entire scout company goes into battle without wearing helmets (not to mention really cool heroes :wink: ). For the really nasty stuff that would kill scouts or unhelmeted heroes, simply wearing a helmet and a specially designed/protective body glove would help. The strength boost is a good point. However, that's only one reason behind power armor as listed in the codex...


> *Space Marine Codex pg 102
> Power Armour*
> Power armour is the standard protection for Space Marine
> warriors and its distinctive outline casts fear into the enemies
> ...


The best protection the imperium can provide of course, is terminator or artificer armor (which Uttam was wearing). The other reason behind power armor, is that it provides "protection." Just like I can't deny that one of power armor's functions is to "enhance the movements of the wearer," you can not deny that power armor provides "protection for Space Marine warriors." If they didn't need it, they wouldn't use it.

Consider this. Since scouts don't use power armor, but instead have have thick carapace armor covering key parts of their body, how do they survive chemical biological warfare? Furthermore, why do they even wear this less protective armor at all? Looking at the description in the codex for scout armor we see this...


> *Space Marine Codex pg 102
> Scout Armour*
> Scout armour is formed of thick plates of carapace armour,
> easily capable of stopping a bullet. Less cumbersome and
> ...


They wear it because even though it's not as good as terminator, artificer, or power armor, it still gives them protection in the form of "stopping a bullet." For the scouts, it is a matter of protection balanced with greater freedom of motion. Again, "easily capable of stopping a bullet," but is "less cumbersome" and "allows a greater freedom of motion."


If marines weren't after or needing the protection of their armor, they wouldn't wear it. They do desire it though, because it protects them and (to simplify things) is "harder" than their fused bones, etc. are.






doofyoofy said:


> 5)Lastly there are both Muay Tai practitioners and shaolin monks who can perfom crazy feats of breaking. Inthe case of muay tai they can KICK through INCHES thick banana trees.


Inches thick wood, not armor. Once again, the power armor description...


> Power armour is.... Made from thick ceramite plates and... offers some of the
> best protection the Imperium can provide


Breaking wood is one thing, punching through steel (or in this case something even better... "thick ceramite plates") is something else entirely. 





doofyoofy said:


> There are similar stories of monks doing similar feats with spears and weapons and armor.


What kind of armor? Steel plate? 





doofyoofy said:


> A SPace Marine would be able to do this to the nth degree, and then you add on top of that a World Eater, who is not only bigger and larger and more muscular than most Space MArines( I am referring to Tagore), but also IRRC says he only respects strength and so whereas other SM might work to be more well rounded than just the biggest and strongest and most badass, he does not. His only focus is to become the strongest and best at close combat. Add this to the Butchers nails, the fact that he self professes that he believes he will die anyway after killingg Utam and hates him normally on top of whatever craziness the Butchers Nail adds, and he is going to give it 120%.


I fundamentally agree with you on this, it's just to what degree would or wouldn't a space marine be able to punch his bare fist through something? You guys say Uttam's artificer armor... I say no way. I think we all agree there is a limit to what a space marine can punch his bare fist through. A land raider? No. A titan? No. Battleship hull plating? No. And the list goes on. It's just going to be where each of us draws the line. 

Saying a monk can punch through inches thick banana tree wood, and then using that to say a space marine who's "nth" degree better than a monk (i.e. stronger, faster, etc.) could punch through artificer armor is a stretch for me. A better comparison would be to say that because a monk can punch through "X" inches of banana wood, and the marine is "nth" degree better, he can punch through "X" more inches of banana tree wood. Wood just does not translate to armor for me. 





doofyoofy said:


> on a related note, it jsut occured to me that there have been severla threads about how Powered Armor has weakness at the stomach and lower sternum regions in order to allow movement of the body, perhaps this where he punched through? I cannot recal exactly from the story. i do remember he pulls out Utams spine ala Predater action which even if over the top is an awsome image. He could have punched through the weaker belly or lower sternum armor and reched through to the spine from the lower abdomen, as opposed to when i initially thought about it i picted him punching through the breastplate.


That would make sense if that's what actually happened, however, that's not at all what happened. The section in question reads...


> *The Outcast Dead, bottom of pg 242 and top of pg 243*
> His bloodied fist hammered into Uttam's chest, driven by rage and betrayal. Ceramite shattered, adamantium buckled and bone broke. Tagore bellowed in atavistic triumph as his power, momentum and strength drove his fist deep into the Custodian's chest.


It's pretty clear he punched through the chest not the belly/lower abdomen. He "shattered" ceremite, "buckled" adamantium, and drove his fist strait through Uttam's chest to grab his spine. 


Here's what the space marine codex has to say about artificer armor...


> *Space Marine Codex pg 102
> Artificer Armour*
> Though the two are superficially similar in appearance,
> artificer armour is as far beyond power armour as power
> ...


It is "far beyond power armor." I'm sorry, but I still feel like this is very unrealistic. Maybe we'll just have to agree, to disagree.  





*
@ Phoebus*


Phoebus said:


> Given all this, I can see how in close combat an exceptional Astartes' strongest blow might have effects equivalent to something approaching a small arms caliber's impact.


I couldn't agree more. Impact force and kinetic energy would be transfered just like someone getting shot who was wearing a bullet proof jacket. However, penetrating and "shattering" artificer armor... I just don't think so.



.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

The problem with the fight is not the fight itself, but inconsistency with how writers are handling custodians. They need to get together, and settle on clear guidelines as to the minimum capabilities and strengths/weaknesses of a custodian before the confusion gets any worse.

For example, just over the last few heresy books, we've seen custodians get mind controlled, duplicated by alien assassins, beat up by astartes in one on one fights, and even to the point where two full squads get casually wiped out without problems. Considering that they are protecting the most important human in the galaxy, and the imperium invests so much in training just one of them, it seems implausible that they can be so weak. It seems that the writers are struggling with the superman effect.

My interpretation of the custodians is that that they are the total badasses of the imperium - like the stamford bridge viking beserker or miyamoto musashi. Having 3 or 4 astartes able to kill one custodian just seems silly.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

I think you've definitely hit on one of the problems. I still think there's the problem of physics and whether Tagore could have punched his bare fist through the artificer armor of Uttam's chest, however, I've already covered that ad nauseum. 

The authors do seem to skip around a bit on this issue and for sure these latest portrayals are a far cry of the invincibility that used to surround the custodes. I myself prefer the older version. There was just something so cool to having something even badder than a space marine around. 

I would prefer that a Custode = 3-4 normal marines. Graham McNeill could have easily achieved this by having Atharva free all the marines detained in the prison, and then having the Custodes dispatch a good number of them before meeting their doom. Or, in the case of Uttam due to being unfit for front line duty equaling 2-3 marines.

However, as the current fluff stands, I believe Graham McNeill was well within his rights to have Tagore defeat him.



.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

I would also add that due to the fact that the outcast dead has the three big bad "c"'s of writing - contradictory, convoluted, and confusing - it would perhaps be best if we don't rely too heavily on that one book for fluff accuracy.

Its not just the nature of the custodians that suffers in it, the book also makes a mess of the timeline of events of the heresy, and other issues.


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## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Uber Ork said:


> I think you've definitely hit on one of the problems. I still think there's the problem of physics and whether Tagore could have punched his bare fist through the artificer armor of Uttam's chest, however, I've already covered that ad nauseum.
> 
> The authors do seem to skip around a bit on this issue and for sure these latest portrayals are a far cry of the invincibility that used to surround the custodes. I myself prefer the older version. There was just something so cool to having something even badder than a space marine around.
> 
> ...


 Ceramiteis a form of ceramic material, used in higher-end types of Imperial armour such ascarapace armour,power armourandTerminator armour. Ceramite conducts almost no heat, making it especially heat-resistant and effective against energy-based weapons.1

Not to discredit anything you spent all that time explaining, but it wasn't adamantium. It states in your previous quote(I need to figure out that multi-quote) it says, after repeated hits the ceramite fractures. So Targon broke the ceramic plates, then punched through the fractured pieces. The adamantium is "buckled" so its merely bent out of the way. So he didn't go through adamantium just around. I've personally witnessed a man not on his meds in a psychotic rage beat on a old 70s truck. Its rolled steel that he was deforming without breaking any bones.

Nathan


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

zuul88 said:


> Not to discredit anything you spent all that time explaining, but it wasn't adamantium. It states in your previous quote(I need to figure out that multi-quote) it says, after repeated hits the ceramite fractures. So Targon broke the ceramic plates, then punched through the fractured pieces. The adamantium is "buckled" so its merely bent out of the way. So he didn't go through adamantium just around.


All I did was quote The Outcast Dead word for word...



Uber Ork said:


> > *The Outcast Dead, bottom of pg 242 and top of pg 243*
> > His bloodied fist hammered into Uttam's chest, driven by rage and betrayal. Ceramite shattered, adamantium buckled and bone broke. Tagore bellowed in atavistic triumph as his power, momentum and strength drove his fist deep into the Custodian's chest.
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear he punched through the chest not the belly/lower abdomen. He "shattered" ceremite, "buckled" adamantium, and drove his fist strait through Uttam's chest to grab his spine.


It was Graham McNeill who connected adamantium to Tagore punching through Uttam's chest, no me. I merely was quoting what the author wrote... "ceramite shattered, adamantium buckled," etc. 





zuul88 said:


> I've personally witnessed a man not on his meds in a psychotic rage beat on a old 70s truck. Its rolled steel that he was deforming without breaking any bones.


Denting a truck is one thing. Punching your fist strait through it is another. As a teenager, I dented the hood of a car once by jumping up on it. My issue isn't with with armor denting or deforming, but Tagore being able to punch his bare fist completely through it. 

Seeing that artificer armor is capable of routinely stopping krak missiles, Grahm McNeill is basically saying that Tagore's bare fist has the armor penetrating power of a lascannon. It wasn't like he punched through a week point like a joint, but strait through one of the strongest parts of the armor. Strait through the chest.



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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

> The authors do seem to skip around a bit on this issue and for sure these latest portrayals are a far cry of the invincibility that used to surround the custodes. I myself prefer the older version. There was just something so cool to having something even badder than a space marine around.


Is it really an older version though? Or is it more we're looking through different glasses, from a time far in the distant future where everything way back when.... maybe Custodes really weren't that powerful, but legend made them out to be.

Reminds me the quote from Braveheart, about William Wallace 7 feet tall, slaying hundreds, with fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse.

And in BattleTech, the Lyran's had this cruiser, the Invincible. Story made it out to be some badass ship that held off fleets, but when the stats were published it was meh. 

So maybe Custodes really aren't up to legend. But that's only because we're now seeing them in their "prime". Just some thoughts.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

COMPNOR said:


> Is it really an older version though? Or is it more we're looking through different glasses, from a time far in the distant future where everything way back when.... maybe Custodes really weren't that powerful, but legend made them out to be.
> 
> Reminds me the quote from Braveheart, about William Wallace 7 feet tall, slaying hundreds, with fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse.
> 
> ...


The thing is irrespective of Legends they would really make a poor praetorian guards for the Emperor in their current state as potrayed in the books.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

@ uber ork
In response to ur highlighting my second point in yellow, i ment the person inside the armor would still take damage despite wearing it, and not the person inflicting the damage.

For your point on gummy bears and such, I would ask that you look up stories and pictures of stuff after hurricanes and tornados. There are stories where STRAW the plant and I believe straws the drinkign tube kind punch into and sometimes through trees! 2 of the wimpiest objects punching through some insane stuff.


After looking this thread over i am on the fence 50/50 i think. lol
Also just looking over the portion in question it does mention that pain only makes Tagore stronger and crazier, lol. Also doesnt mention any bones being broken or Tagore really suffering an significant damage at all.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Nashnir said:


> The thing is irrespective of Legends they would really make a poor praetorian guards for the Emperor in their current state as potrayed in the books.


Eh, I dunno. Even the most loyal, even the most "indestructable" can still be fallible. But hey, what do I know.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

COMPNOR said:


> So maybe Custodes really aren't up to legend. But that's only because we're now seeing them in their "prime". Just some thoughts.


That's possible. I was just stating my preference... I guess I prefer the myth.  However, *Nashnir*'s point is well taken as well, you would think the Emperor's personal body guard would be the best.





doofyoofy said:


> For your point on gummy bears and such, I would ask that you look up stories and pictures of stuff after hurricanes and tornados. There are stories where STRAW the plant and I believe straws the drinkign tube kind punch into and sometimes through trees! 2 of the wimpiest objects punching through some insane stuff.


Partially into trees yes, through trees has been disproved by mythbusters. Once again we're comparing apples to oranges. One fibrous material being partially embedded into (not punched all the way through mind you) another fibrous material is one thing. Fibrous material punching through solid steel is completely another. I would have had no problem with Tagore punching his fist of flesh and bone through Uttam's unprotected flesh and bone. That would have been like fibrous material on fibrous material. However, that's not at all what happened, Tagore punched his bare fist through highly advanced armored plate. 





doofyoofy said:


> After looking this thread over i am on the fence 50/50 i think. lol
> Also just looking over the portion in question it does mention that pain only makes Tagore stronger and crazier, lol. Also doesnt mention any bones being broken or Tagore really suffering an significant damage at all.


The passage in question only says "ceramite shattered, adamantium buckled and bone broke." It doesn't clarify who's bone. For sure we know it refers to Uttam as the first two of those three descriptions can only apply to him (he was the only one wearing armor), and so it stands to reason by the pattern the author established that the third element in the description also applies to him. However, it doesn't negate the fact that Tagore's bones broke too.

Whatever the case, even if his bones did break... they didn't break enough for his hand to become useless (either in grabbing and then ripping Uttam's spine out, or in using his hand, wrist, and arm throughout the rest of the book). If they didn't break... that only makes this story even more outlandish than it already is (i.e. Tagore's fist is so much stronger than artificer armor, that not only is it capable of penetrating it, but can do so without breaking).



.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

One of two things needs to happen in respect to custodians....

1) They are clearly defined as being vastly superior in strength and capabilities to space marines, and their numbers are kept small (original fluff)

OR

2) The are made to be just slightly better than regular space marines, and their numbers greatly increased (new interpretation)

The current norm is unacceptable as the way that they are currently portrayed isn't logical. If your super troopers that take immense amount of resources to produce are only slightly better than the average space marine, you would just mass produce the average space marine and just give them better weapons so that they could do the job effectively. 

Again, unless there is a serious retcon in the future, the only reason why you would invest so much resources and be limited in numbers as a result is if custodians were truly capable of holding their own against masses of astartes (just as an astartes is capable of holding their own against masses of humans)


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

@ mbatemplar
I dont think thats necessarily true in regards to your point about custodians being above space marines i nteh same manner as SM are to humans.
1) Could be tradition. THe custodes where there before the SM where created, and so The Emporer kept them, if its not broke dont fix it.
2) In the Outcast Dead it says that a Custodians mind is far different and from an SMs IRRC, the passage where the Thousands Sons character is peering into everyones heads. The difference could just be a mainly mental one, the physical aspects of being 1.5 SM just a bonus. Also i belive Blood games mentions that they are mentally different to their "cousins" the SM.

to use uber orks saying, its liek comparing apples to oranges, both have different jobs and are designed and trained in different manners. The overlap in capabilites being in the combat department.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

So I havent read all posts in this thread, but wanted to contribute with someone. We can all agree *McNeill* fugged up pretty much with the chronological order of things, but I have re-read the first books in the series and found some interesting aspects. I'm writing this only to make sense of things and continue without having plotholes and stuff like that. This post is mostly for my own sake, to rend up my thoughts and make a chronological sense in what the hell actually happened. You guys might not agree, which is understandable.

*We know that*:
- Magnus tried to warn Horus in _False Gods/A Thousand Sons_ before Horus full corruption.
- Magnus tried to warn the Emperor afterwards as that failed, but its chronological impossible to know when the warning arrived due to different sources.
- The Wolves were unleashed to upprehend Magnus and his Legion and bring him back to Terra/kill him and destroy his Legion.
- Horus mentions that he had swayed Russ to kill, rather than bring back alive. Don't remember which source though.
- At the end of Issvan III it is said Russ had performed his duty and Prospero has burned, and Magnus is a sure ally to them.

*What we don't know is*:
- Who sent the order to Russ to go to Prospero.
- When the warning to the Emperor arrived.
- When the battle of Prospero took place.

So after re-reading Fulgrim once more, I found this interesting, the character Ormond Braxton, a representative of the Adminstratum comes to Fulgrim to say that Magnus has broken the decree of Nikaea and Russ has been sent to deal with him (p. 320). This takes place before Fulgrim visits Horus at the end of _False Gods_. It is also mentioned the massacred onboard the _Vengeful Spirit_ when the Warmaster is brought back from Davin. Weeks before is the meeting with the Eldar, which I think I don't have to retell you guys about.

So my theory was that after Magnus tries but fails to save Horus, Horus sent a message to the Emperor, telling that he has broken the rules and should be dealt with, as Magnus showed allegiance to the Emperor. One problem solved and Horus considered him to be removed out of the way. In _ATS_ Magnus pretty much only minutes after talking to Horus, tries to contact the Emperor and ruins his Webway project and let's daemons invade the Imperial Palace, meaning long before Russ would arrive there. This is fugged up then in the _Outcast Dead_, which takes place _*after*_ Isstvan V.

So rewinding, we come downs to this:
*1)* Magnus tries to save Horus, he fails.
*2a)* Horus contacts the Emperor to get rid of Magnus and Russ at the same time. Since its hinted Russ has been used before, Horus knew this would be the sollution this time again. This can however be contracted since Horus is surprised to hear of Magnus fall when Fulgrim arrives at the final stages of the Auretian Technocracy at the end of _False Gods_ (p. 339). My idea is that he is just acting, so Fulgrim won't notice he already knows.
*2b)* Alternative, Horus contacts the Emperor, finds out that Magnus is in trouble from Fulgrim, contacts Russ to kill him instead of letting him live.
*3)* Isstvan III is destroyed, the Emperor hears of this and Dorn send loyalist Legions which gets destroyed.
*4)* The warning which Magnus sent to Emperor, is known by the Chaos Gods would ruin his project and weakened him, and as we all know, time is irrelevant in the Warp, they prolounged his warning so Horus could do his planning at Isstvan without the Emperor knowing. Its kind like to blow on all sides at the same times. First loyalists in the Traitor Legions + 3 loyalist Legions are purged, then 2 Legions (TS and SW) almost destroys each other + taking out the communication network (Astropaths) on Earth.
*5)* When the loyalist are already weakened, the warning is allowed to come through, ruing the entire Imperial Palace, weakened the Emperor, and kills of his entire Astropath staff, making Terra pretty much blinde and mute. As we saw in Aurelian, a Lorgar from the years 165-something meets a Magnus from year 204 of the Great Crusade in the Warp so it is entirely possible.
*6)* Magnus sees what he has done, his warning was all but for nothing, Russ is already on his way to reprimand him, Horus is victorious in Isstvan and he destroyed the project. He is about to face his doom until the final moment at the battle of Prospero.
*7)* Then we have the contradictions of Outcast Dead that it appears it wasn't until after Isstvan V that Russ was sent. My theory is that Russ was sent in secret, but after Magnus smashes into the Palace, that secret could no longer be held at bay and the regular people finally found out that Magnus is in trouble and Russ is already on his way.

The only problem is perhaps to fit in Valdor here.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

A slightly different question, but pertains to this novel:

Who were the other Space Marines locked up? The Thousand Sons guy had only those whose legions had turned released. I'm assuming it was no Imperial Fists, but were other loyalists locked up as a safety measure until it could be determined who was who?


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

An interesting thoery forkmaster, I personally like most of it. except the Chaos gods holding the message back, but not sure how that would work in if soemthign like that didnt happen.

@COMPNOR IRRC Outcast dead says they are from legions whos loyalty is in question still, like White Scars, who were out of contact with everyone, for at the time of the book. ALso any other legions who THe Big E and Dorn werent sure of yet.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

That's kinda what I thought, but don't even remember Chapters being named, so I wasn't sure.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

COMPNOR said:


> A slightly different question, but pertains to this novel:
> 
> Who were the other Space Marines locked up? The Thousand Sons guy had only those whose legions had turned released. I'm assuming it was no Imperial Fists, but were other loyalists locked up as a safety measure until it could be determined who was who?


I wondered that as well - the only clue we have to their identity was that he only freed space marines from legions that had already rebelled. Meaning that marines from the traitor legions yet to rebel were not released and were thought to be still loyal. I should also add that I'm making the assumption that the crusader host would have representatives from all of the legions -yet - the imperium demanded all of the crusader host to surrender. This might be explained that there was a fear that the traitorous taint could have spread to the marines that lived there - an opinion that was mirrored later on when the troops killed innocent civilians in the temple of woe.

Sigh - I suspect they'll have to write another book post outcast dead just to rectify all of the mistakes found in that one book.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Also, wanted to add, I read from a post on Facebook from a guy who met Graham this weekend who said this inconsistency is deliberate on his behalf and will return in a future novel apparently, kinda like _The Outcast Dead_ explained some of what had happened in _The Dark King_ which still was unexplained.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Awsome, good to know forkmaster.

I wonder though are u referring to the time inconsistancies or the fact that The Crusade Host was imprisoned or both?


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