# The Horus Heresy as a Failure of Leadersip/Parenting



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

I have a background in the Military, as a junior NCO, and I have studied warfare and military leadership. I also know my mythology well enough to have seen some epically poor choices made vis-a-vis parenting. 

In reading the Heresy novels, i cannot help but see everything negative that happened as a direct result of the Emperor being a really crappy military leader in the sense of handling his subordinates and a literally epically poor parent.

A few examples;

Angron;

The Emperor basically steals him away from his final battlefield with his rebellion, then just dumps him on The Warhounds and walks away.

-He's the Emperor, he could have/should have easily joined his son in battle and turned the tide fighting side by side with him.
-He cares enough about Angron to save his life by abducting him, but he's not enough of a leader/parent to use his super-skillz(TM) to remove the butcher's nails against his will and then rehab him for a little while. Because the utter butchers the World Eaters became is a better option?

Horus;

After the Triumph at Ullanor, the Emperor leaves Horus in charge and basically high-tails it to Terra with nary a word.

-Besides this being perfectly encapsulated in a webcomic I saw once; "Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"
-Also; the turning over of the Empire to civilian functionaries was a sore point which alienated many Primarchs and could have been handled better. This is a recurring theme in history and is always a problem, the Emperor should have known better.

Magnus;

The entire Concil of Nikea was stupid. The issue of magnus should have been better solved by A) treating him like an adult, B) sharing his plans, C) bringing Magnus and his legion in on what was going on, in general.

Essentially The Emperor knew Magnus well enough to predict how he would react to limited information and secrets. What occured was totally foreseeable. I'd even argue that given his potential, the threats at hand and the plans for him, Magnus and his legion should have been brought inside as the Terran legion over the Imperial Fists. Magnus certainly needed more direct tutoring and more trust. 


Now obviously, these are just a few examples and some of this needed to happen to make/explain a more interesting(?) game universe. But from a different standpoint, what do you think? Of individual incidents and other examples and of my general thesis, if that is the right word, that the Horus Heresy is basically down to the Emperor's failings as a Parent and a Military Leader.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

I do agree with you, had the same thinking. that's why I worship Chaos and not the feebleminded emprah. 
Honestly he did everithing wrong. Maybe its hard to be a communion of psykers souls, an ubermensch and just act in a human way. he was too focused on his goals and just treated his own sons like pawns. He was the king, they where servants, in his mind. Also, writers at gw have no real idea of what is a credible social interaction and a proper dialogue. see this again:


Marauderlegion said:


> "Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"


A skizophrenic could have made more sense out of a sentence...


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Regarding Angron and indeed almost all of the primarchs,we have to understand that we are reading the books through a character or characters, and whatever they subjectively interpret,we read.
Angron for instance, who other than angron supports his narrative?

Regarding the butchers nails, im 90% sure they are khronate (chaos) is nature, they bite harder the stronger the psychic intrusion, so the Emperors psychic power is worse than useless, they also tried other ways to remove them, but they would have all ended in Angrons death.

Regarding Horus, again, whos perspectives do we see?not the Emperors, i agree with the Emperor, a superhuman godlike being (im talking about horus) should be able to deal with abandonment issues, the fact he couldnt evidently shows he shouldnt have ever told him about the webway.
the whole point of the imperium was to empower humanity, not give it to the superhumans, they were custodians, not dictators.

And regarding Magnus, the one who was drowning in his own vanity, destroyed the imperium, enslaved his sons and deflected everything with cool air of dignity and arrogance, lets be serious, the Emperor did pretty good given the hand he was given.
Let us also remember that Magnus had fallen LONG before Nikea, indeed he fell almost at the beginning of the crusade, when he bargained with Tzeentch for his sons.

Heres a quote by the Emperor of man "it pains me, but I will have to leave you all when you need me the most. I’ll try to watch over you when I can"

IMO, the biggest mistake the Emperor made was giving anyone the authority of warmaster.


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

This all falls back to the tree hugging liberals. If the Emperor would have been allowed to spank his children when they behaved badly, this whole heresy thing wouldn't have happened. 
Seriously though, the Emp should have taken a stronger interest in the dealings of the empire. He could have handled his leaving a whole lot better than he did.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> -He's the Emperor, he could have/should have easily joined his son in battle and turned the tide fighting side by side with him.


Every time a Primarch bonded with a group of humans, they were generally allowed to join the Legions. Russ's merry band of men. The Lion's brothers from the Order. Corax's freedom fighters. Generally these guys were honorable and noble to one degree.

What would Angron's have brought to the table? A bunch of mentally broken killers. So rather than risk having the Warhounds poisoned by the ex-gladiators, the Emperor conveniently takes them out of the equation...

Is my theory. I can't think of any other logical explanation. I'm guessing the Emperor hoped that Angron would get over the issue. Better the chance that Angron would come around than the guarantee of screwing the Warhounds with thousands of psychotic killers. 

(Yes, this happened to the Night Lords, but when the Emperor arrived on Nostramo it was a peaceful, productive world under Curze's control.)



Marauderlegion said:


> -He cares enough about Angron to save his life by abducting him, but he's not enough of a leader/parent to use his super-skillz(TM) to remove the butcher's nails against his will and then rehab him for a little while. Because the utter butchers the World Eaters became is a better option?


He was beyond Imperial science. The mechanism controlling Angron's emotions came from ill-understood technology from the Dark Age. They could not remove it without killing him.



Marauderlegion said:


> -Besides this being perfectly encapsulated in a webcomic I saw once; "Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"


Yeah, major screw up here. Dunno...maybe when we see _The Master of Mankind_ come out, we might get a reason.



Marauderlegion said:


> -Also; the turning over of the Empire to civilian functionaries was a sore point which alienated many Primarchs and could have been handled better. This is a recurring theme in history and is always a problem, the Emperor should have known better.


I don't think this was a wrong move. The execution may have been rough, but the idea is sound.

Many of the Primarchs were warlords first and last. You weren't going to see the Perturabo or Russ founding civilizations. They weren't going to enrich the societies they brought to compliance. They needed someone else to manage the worlds. To help them grow and to ensure these worlds are supplying the Great Crusade to the best of their abilities.

Thus enters the Administratum. Let most of the Primarchs focus what they are good at, battle, and let the civilians do the nitty gritty work.



Marauderlegion said:


> A) treating him like an adult,


The Emperor did. Notice the pass tense?

He warned Magnus that there were dark things out in the universe. Things you don't want to talk with, much less strike bargains with. Magnus and his Legion ignored this and went along its merry way.

The Emperor had to bring the hammer down before something drastic happened.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lorgar...let's talk about Lorgar

There was really no better way of handling Monarchia?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Lorgar...let's talk about Lorgar
> 
> There was really no better way of handling Monarchia?


The way I see it, for centuries the Emperor failed to dissuade Lorgar of his beliefs, all the while Lorgar's lagging behind compared to his brothers' progress in the Great Crusade (due to erecting temples, converting the newly beaten populace, etc.) and the Emperor's just about had it.

What better way to teach an overly melodramatic, emotional and delusional son then to take a drastic, unnecessary measure?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> There was really no better way of handling Monarchia?


_Massacre_ suggests that the Emperor confronted Lorgar earlier and told him that "if [Lorgar] persisted he would have to suffer the consequences."

I think this is another Magnus style disciplinary action. If you don't listen to my stern warnings not to touch the fire, then I'm going to have to step it up a notch.


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## PlayingWithHammers (Nov 7, 2013)

"Hi boys, today's lesson is on the warp, Chaos and the 4 major aspects of Chaos that form powerful sentient entities"

"Lorgar, this is the reason i immediately killed Lorgar, Erebus and destroyed Colchis as worship of these Chaos entities was intrinsic to their culture"

"Angron, I know you are glad we rescued your gladiator army and I personally dedicated my time to removing the implants from your head, you are so much calmer now"

"Konrad, again, i just wanted to say I love you" ***hug***

"All, this is my last lesson before I return to Earth to work on a Terran gateway to the eldar webway network. This will also explain we have strengthened the librarian programme, in order to make you more prepared for the dangers that lie out in the galaxy and why we need a new means to travel and communicate that is not warp dependent."

and so was ushered in a new age, the age of Brighthammer, and all was well.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

The problem is the emperor wanted to move away from psykers, his plan was to remove humanities dependance on the warp as much as possible. Therefore depriving chaos of power.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

You know actually, not warning the primarchs about Chaos was another thing that stuck in my mind. I think that so far every Heresy book has at least one of those WTF moments.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The problem is the emperor wanted to move away from psykers, his plan was to remove humanities dependance on the warp as much as possible. Therefore depriving chaos of power.


I thought that his plan was to prepare humanity for its destiny as a fully psychic species. Human evolution is inexorably speeding them towards a future where if the species survives, almost all humans will be psykers.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> You know actually, not warning the primarchs about Chaos was another thing that stuck in my mind. I think that so far every Heresy book has at least one of those WTF moments.


This thread may be of interest to you.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Karthak said:


> I thought that his plan was to prepare humanity for its destiny as a fully psychic species. Human evolution is inexorably speeding them towards a future where if the species survives, almost all humans will be psykers.


If that was the case why even try and breach the webway?

The emperor is capable of killing chaos if it was weak enough, however the only way for it to be weakened is by starving it if it's primary food source.

Human emotions. By having an imperium governed by logic and reason most of the power they gain is gone.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> If that was the case why even try and breach the webway?


Because having more psykers, if anything, just makes warp travel (and existence in general) even more dangerous.



Reaper45 said:


> Human emotions. By having an imperium governed by logic and reason most of the power they gain is gone.


Promoting logic and reason does not remove human emotions from the equation. And it is emotion which is the primary source of the gods' energy.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

I guess i really overlooked the obvious here; what ARE the emperor's actual motivations?

I had always taken for granted that the emperor's goals involved ushering in mankind's new psychic age. But I also used to take for granted, pre-heresy novels that the emperor was a god and everybody saw him that way and he endorsed it.

I'm not 100% sure what the Emp's views on psykers were because there is so much contradiction and flip-flopping.

Another theory is that the Emp saw the heresy and all that followed coming and made it all part of his plan. sort of a fundamentalist view if you will, but there it is. Even makes all the boondoggles have a sort of sense from a certain light.


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## kharn130 (Dec 7, 2013)

from what ive read, heard, seen, what caused the heresy to start was the emporer/ultramarines destroying the 'perfect city' as this is what caused lorgar to go and discover the truth about the gods of chaos, and inspire the other primarchs to rise against the imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

kharn130 said:


> from what ive read, heard, seen, what caused the heresy to start was the emporer/ultramarines destroying the 'perfect city' as this is what caused lorgar to go and discover the truth about the gods of chaos, and inspire the other primarchs to rise against the imperium.


The destruction of Monarchia was the cause of the Horus Heresy just as much as the 'Pig War' (between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia) was the cause of the First World War.

As in, it was one (amongst countless) important factor(s) but wasn't _the_ cause (or even _the_ catalyst).


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

What do you guys think of the Emperor possessing forknowledge of the heresy?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Angron was fucked from the start. He was the least charismatic and was the only Primarch to not raise his planet up from the ashes. These technogladiators were nothing special; the Chaos beings on Mortarions world produced poisons strong enough to hurt a Primarch, while Vulkan defeated the Dark Eldar: there isn't much more advanced than that. Yet he stayed in the dirt.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

So why waste a legion on Angron then? Based on what i've read, the Warhounds seemed a fine legion as they were. Making them the scions of a martyred primarch would have only made them more driven in that case.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

kharn130 said:


> This is what caused lorgar to go and discover the truth about the gods of chaos, and inspire the other primarchs to rise against the imperium.


You mean get fooled by the lies of Chaos, don't you? It is obvious to the omniscient observer i.e. us that he is being played for a fool. It is his ego and pride that he make him think he has discovered "truth"


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because nepotism. 

The Emperor knew the capabilities of his sons; he had designed them as such. It's like a parent who has a bright kid at Primary School, but when he goes to secondary school and gets in with the wrong crowd, and begins to fuck up. The easiest way to "fix" it is to remove the influence of the wrong crowd.

Oddly, just checked Horus Heresy; Betrayal and it said he had a fearsome charisma, but at the same time, has rarely exhibited it. The Bloodlust of the Primarch already exhibited itself within the legion prior to being reunited, but together, it was unshackled.

He is still a Primarch however as well. They are a weapon designed to operate the legions with maximum efficiency and capability in warfare and combat, while being deadly in combat themselves; he is stated to be the greater than many of his other fellow primarchs.

Perhaps the Emperor tried to have the two reign each other in; or perhaps he just needed to "lcry havoc and lets slip the dogs of war" every once in a while.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> So why waste a legion on Angron then? Based on what i've read, the Warhounds seemed a fine legion as they were. Making them the scions of a martyred primarch would have only made them more driven in that case.


I bet the World Eaters (after discovering Angron) forced more compliances than the War Hounds would have done (if Angron hadn't been discovered).



randian said:


> You mean get fooled by the lies of Chaos, don't you? It is obvious to the omniscient observer i.e. us that he is being played for a fool. It is his ego and pride that he make him think he has discovered "truth"


But, in a way, he did discover the truth. He discovered the gods, for good or ill.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I bet the World Eaters (after discovering Angron) forced more compliances than the War Hounds would have done (if Angron hadn't been discovered).
> 
> 
> 
> But, in a way, he did discover the truth. He discovered the gods, for good or ill.


the second part is inarguable, but for the first, there is an argument to be made for the damage Angron's forces did to the reputation and cohesion of the crusade.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> there is an argument to be made for the damage Angron's forces did to the reputation and cohesion of the crusade.


The same argument can be made for several Legions.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

While the Nightlords must certainly be in the running (and the relegation of necromo to Imperial administration is another serious error), i should think that the World Eaters would be the front runners in the "bad for PR" racket.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> While the Nightlords must certainly be in the running (and the relegation of necromo to Imperial administration is another serious error), i should think that the World Eaters would be the front runners in the "bad for PR" racket.


All of the Legions committed monumental atrocities. The Night Lords, Space Wolves, White Scars, Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers were all Legions (you could also make the case for one or two others, the Alpha Legion perhaps) that, for varying reasons, could have given the Great Crusade just as negative an image as the World Eaters may have done.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll give you the Night Lords, CotE, precisely because the same qualifiers are provided for them as of the World Eaters: worlds surrendering rather than wishing to fight them. And I'll certainly grant you that _any_ war of a global (never mind galactic) scale will inevitably involve atrocities.

That having been said, I think you overreach when you try to equivocate the _intentional pursuit of atrocity_ with atrocities that result from collateral damage that. This, especially when, in many cases, other primarchs have qualified such losses as unfortunate and unwanted. Intent plays a huge role here. We _know_ it does because, even in an Imperium that was predicated on unity via war, the Night Lords and the World Eaters - the most extreme, violent, and sadistic legions - were the ones to face sanctions. In Curze's case, he was even arrested before the Heresy even kicked off.


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## AshArtKing (Nov 27, 2013)

Lost&Damned said:


> IMO, the biggest mistake the Emperor made was giving anyone the authority of warmaster.


I disagree. My quote is a good example of who could have handled the title Warmaster. I honestly believe Sanguinius was by far the most pure in faith and honor. He was the most loyal of the Emperor's sons and most like him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'll give you the Night Lords, CotE, precisely because the same qualifiers are provided for them as of the World Eaters: worlds surrendering rather than wishing to fight them. And I'll certainly grant you that _any_ war of a global (never mind galactic) scale will inevitably involve atrocities.
> 
> That having been said, I think you overreach when you try to equivocate the _intentional pursuit of atrocity_ with atrocities that result from collateral damage that. This, especially when, in many cases, other primarchs have qualified such losses as unfortunate and unwanted. Intent plays a huge role here. We _know_ it does because, even in an Imperium that was predicated on unity via war, the Night Lords and the World Eaters - the most extreme, violent, and sadistic legions - were the ones to face sanctions. In Curze's case, he was even arrested before the Heresy even kicked off.


Yep, I'll give you that. But, for other reasons, several other Legions would have also given the Great Crusade "bad PR" (in _MarauderLegion_'s words). Look at how much opposition the Thousand Sons drew for their sorcerous dabbling for example. Or the Word Bearers and their cult-worship. Given, these things aren't "bad PR" because of genocide or similar atrocities, but they were still widely condemned. 



AshArtKing said:


> I disagree. My quote is a good example of who could have handled the title Warmaster. I honestly believe Sanguinius was by far the most pure in faith and honor. He was the most loyal of the Emperor's sons and most like him.


Sanguinius was tainted, and too "ethereal". He wouldn't have successfully managed the mantle of Warmaster.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yep, I'll give you that. But, for other reasons, several other Legions would have also given the Great Crusade "bad PR"


Well, the key point of "PR" is the *public* portion. I don't think the Thousand Sons or Word Bearers gave the Great Crusade bad PR.

The Thousand Sons seemed to be learned and polite to the humans they met. To my knowledge, they completed compliances without any undue damage expected of a military take-over.

The Word Bearers were liked even more by the people they took. They definitely stuck around to build and nurture the worlds they took. Yes, they received condemnation--but only from above. The people were fine with the Word Bearers.

I'll agree with the Night Lords, World Eaters, Space Wolves, possibly the Iron Warriors (with their nasty array of weapons), and the Alpha Legion (since they seemed to wage war unilaterally--this urks their fellow commanders).

I'm curious why you put the White Scars up there. What'd they do? I haven't read _Scars_, so the only impression of them from a human point of view I have is from _Prospero Burns_ and that one seemed positive.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Well, the key point of "PR" is the *public* portion. I don't think the Thousand Sons or Word Bearers gave the Great Crusade bad PR.
> 
> The Thousand Sons seemed to be learned and polite to the humans they met. To my knowledge, they completed compliances without any undue damage expected of a military take-over.
> 
> The Word Bearers were liked even more by the people they took. They definitely stuck around to build and nurture the worlds they took. Yes, they received condemnation--but only from above. The people were fine with the Word Bearers.


I agree with that. But the Thousand Sons drew huge amounts of condemnation for their practices - whilst not genocidal or brutal, were possibly even more dangerous given humanity's fear of psykers/witches in the post-Age of Strife era - so much so that it seems, at least from certain viewpoints, that the Emperor's hand was forced into sanctioning the Council of Nikaea (effectively the trial of Magnus the Red and his Legion). Also remember that at least four other Legions (including the Imperial Fists IIRC) refused to campaign alongside the Thousand Sons. 

I would argue that this could have been just as bad 'PR' for the Great Crusade as the genocides of the World Eaters or Night Lords. People feared and despised psykers after all. That the Great Crusade contained an entire Legion of psykers dabbling in sorcery was surely as bad, if not worse, than a Legion or two of warriors who were willing to commit extreme brutality or genocide if they were opposed, in the eyes of some anyway. 



hailene said:


> I'll agree with the Night Lords, World Eaters, Space Wolves, possibly the Iron Warriors (with their nasty array of weapons), and the Alpha Legion (since they seemed to wage war unilaterally--this urks their fellow commanders).
> 
> I'm curious why you put the White Scars up there. What'd they do? I haven't read _Scars_, so the only impression of them from a human point of view I have is from _Prospero Burns_ and that one seemed positive.


Mainly from their portrayals in _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and _Scars_. People feared and mistrusted them, they were wild, savage and unpredictable. They were even put under special measures (see _Brotherhood of the Storm_) by the Imperium in an attempt to control them and bring them back under Imperial command. The Khagan openly admitted that he believed the Emperor to be a tyrant and that he generally had a very low opinion of the Imperium. Their perceived savagery, barbarism and lack of control and accountability is probably enough to make a case on their behalf in this regard.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Now the scars sound awesome.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Now the scars sound awesome.


I recommend both _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and _Scars_ - two of the best instalments in the Heresy series in recent times.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree with that. But the Thousand Sons drew huge amounts of condemnation for their practices - whilst not genocidal or brutal, were possibly even more dangerous given humanity's fear of psykers/witches in the post-Age of Strife era - so much so that it seems, at least from certain viewpoints, that the Emperor's hand was forced into sanctioning the Council of Nikaea (effectively the trial of Magnus the Red and his Legion). Also remember that at least four other Legions (including the Imperial Fists IIRC) refused to campaign alongside the Thousand Sons.
> 
> I would argue that this could have been just as bad 'PR' for the Great Crusade as the genocides of the World Eaters or Night Lords. People feared and despised psykers after all. That the Great Crusade contained an entire Legion of psykers dabbling in sorcery was surely as bad, if not worse, than a Legion or two of warriors who were willing to commit extreme brutality or genocide if they were opposed, in the eyes of some anyway.


Sorry, I have to remain in disagreement with you on this.

*First,* when it comes to the reputation of the Thousand Sons in regards to the rest of the Imperium we have next to no evidence that the planets they brought into Compliance were disposed against them after the fact (anymore so than other Legions that is). I doubt it's an accident that we know for a fact that people were terrified of the Night Lords and the World Eaters, but that no such mention is made for the Thousand Sons.

To this, I'd add the purely theoretical: Astartes warfare has been repeatedly qualified as shocking, extreme, and devastating in nature. We're talking about orbital bombardments that are equivalent to nuclear detonations or to fire bombings of extreme scale, Titans and super-heavy tanks that can level buildings with every strike, and Space Marines who dispatch their opponents in the most gruesome ways: their chainswords eviscerate and amputate, their bolters explode bodies from the inside out, their punches and kicks collapse torso and skull alike, etc. What am I getting at with this? Absent truly obscene displays of psychic power (and we don't get to see this even in the Shrike campaign, in _A Thousand Sons,_ which we know to have been heavily contested), I sincerely doubt that the overt abilities used by the Thousand Sons (telekinesis, pyromancy, etc.) would have made a significant impact on conquered populations - save, of course, for those with the most virulent anti-psyker traditions.

*Second,* the Council of Nikaea was predicated on the ideological differences between a minority of the Primarchs. There's a huge difference between a parallel to an ecumenical council with hostile overtones and being recalled to Terra to be relieved of command. Before Magnus breached the wards of the Imperial Palace, there was no talk of sanctions as with the other two legions we're talking about.

Where the White Scars are concerned, I haven't read 'Brotherhood of the Storm' but the feeling I got from 'Scars' is that they're simply perceived as roguish and too independent. I never got the vibe that I did from 'Prospero Burns', where human officers qualify their fear of the Vlka Fenryka and their utter ruthlessness. Rather, they're not seen as all that dependable - presumably because they dance to their own tune and sail where they choose. In this, though, I think they're far more like Jeb Stuart of American Civil War fame (that is, doing his own thing instead of reporting to Lee right before and during the pivotal battle of the war) than, say, an SS Panzer Division stomping through France (executing prisoners of war, terrorizing the local population, etc.).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm going to do an about face on the Thousand Sons. I was flipping through _Thousand Sons_ and stumbled upon this quote between the Thousand Sons captains at the beginning of the novel:

"“You know why,” said Phosis T’kar angrily. “Half the Imperium wished us dead not so long ago. They fear us.”

So with this new evidence, I think the Thousand Sons deserve to be up there with the rest in terms of PR damage.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

yeah, but that never made sense to me either; in Thousand Sons Magnus sees in his father's mind all he planned for him ruined because of what his breaching of the imperial palace caused.


This is weird for two reasons; 1) it's totally inconsistant with the council of Nikea in general. The Council was very much a sanction against magnus and his forces, so...why still include him, in your ultimate plan? 2) Why not take Magnus aside and tell him about your plans after or during the council. 3) The Emperor is supposed to be a greater psyker than anyone, yet he cannot know/see what magnus has done and steer him right? Why is the leader of mankind reduced to the passive aggressive communication skills of a bitter, senile aunt?

Inherantly, it's always bothered me that the emperor made (or had made) his sons and their legions and is then unable to either correct their defects or actually council them in any significant way. I know he's a busy God (or not), but your top 18-20 guys have to be a priority, along with their armies.

You show up on a world and confront your Son (Cruze), he's all kinds of messed up, leading a world and speaking like a drugged-up Goth-groupie whose mom just found his stash to the God-emperor of mankind, who blinds people who look at him. Do you care? nope! here's an army: Know how to use it? No? You'll figure it out. Bye son! things to do! (tousel's greasy hair).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> I'm going to do an about face on the Thousand Sons. I was flipping through _Thousand Sons_ and stumbled upon this quote between the Thousand Sons captains at the beginning of the novel:
> 
> "“You know why,” said Phosis T’kar angrily. “Half the Imperium wished us dead not so long ago. They fear us.”
> 
> So with this new evidence, I think the Thousand Sons deserve to be up there with the rest in terms of PR damage.


I struggle to see how they do, unless you read T'kar's words completely literally. You can't, though. Phosis T'kar is among the most belligerent of the Thousand Sons officers and is clearly exaggerating for effect here. More to the point, he's not talking about ill-will earned by his legion's _actions,_ so much as he's referencing the fall-out of their flesh-change mutation. He clearly can't speak for half of the Imperium.

And again, we don't actually see evidence of lasting damage from this problem. To compare this to using cybernetic devices that turn soldiers into uncontrollable psychopathic killers, or to a recruitment process that systematically focused on sociopaths, murderers, and rapists, is to miss the point. It's incredibly telling that the Emperor _did_ eliminate *two* Primarchs, that he removed their legions from the official record, that he had demanded for a third to report for sanctions, and that he was sending assassins after a fourth _before the Heresy even started_... but we have no evidence that sanctions were ever going to be leveled against Magnus and his Sons. Not until a minority of Primarchs including a future traitor and Russ, who was manipulated to his position, called for the Council of Nikaea, that is.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> And again, we don't actually see evidence of lasting damage from this problem.


That's the funny thing about PR, you don't actually need to do damage in order to get bad PR. Or do good to get good PR.

It's all about perceptions. The Space Wolves got shit done, but they still (at least from the few perspectives we've seen on the matter) were viewed unfavorably by the citizens of the Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Sorry, I have to remain in disagreement with you on this.
> 
> *First,* when it comes to the reputation of the Thousand Sons in regards to the rest of the Imperium we have next to no evidence that the planets they brought into Compliance were disposed against them after the fact (anymore so than other Legions that is). I doubt it's an accident that we know for a fact that people were terrified of the Night Lords and the World Eaters, but that no such mention is made for the Thousand Sons.
> 
> To this, I'd add the purely theoretical: Astartes warfare has been repeatedly qualified as shocking, extreme, and devastating in nature. We're talking about orbital bombardments that are equivalent to nuclear detonations or to fire bombings of extreme scale, Titans and super-heavy tanks that can level buildings with every strike, and Space Marines who dispatch their opponents in the most gruesome ways: their chainswords eviscerate and amputate, their bolters explode bodies from the inside out, their punches and kicks collapse torso and skull alike, etc. What am I getting at with this? Absent truly obscene displays of psychic power (and we don't get to see this even in the Shrike campaign, in _A Thousand Sons,_ which we know to have been heavily contested), I sincerely doubt that the overt abilities used by the Thousand Sons (telekinesis, pyromancy, etc.) would have made a significant impact on conquered populations - save, of course, for those with the most virulent anti-psyker traditions.


Yes, and despite all of that, there was some measure of general acceptance that most of the Legiones Astartes were vital to the war effort and were honourable warriors and unleashed their ferocity only as a last resort. However, regardless of what the individual worlds whom Magnus brought into compliance (and thus had direct dealings with the XV Legion) thought, the vast majority of the Imperium hated and feared psykers, there is no escaping that fact. The Thousand Sons were a Legion of psykers whom even several of the Primarchs condemned, and eventually the Emperor brought to trial and sanction. 

I don't think it matters exactly what the Thousand Sons did - whether they produced "truly obscene displays of psychic power" or not, people perceived them as being witches dabbling in sorcery and thus I still think they would have produced similar amounts of (if not more) "bad PR" than the World Eaters or Night Lords.



Phoebus said:


> *Second,* the Council of Nikaea was predicated on the ideological differences between a minority of the Primarchs. There's a huge difference between a parallel to an ecumenical council with hostile overtones and being recalled to Terra to be relieved of command. Before Magnus breached the wards of the Imperial Palace, there was no talk of sanctions as with the other two legions we're talking about.


Actually, there was. The Night Lords and World Eaters were recalled to Terra to, maybe, be relieved of command or otherwise sanctioned. Yet the Thousand Sons (before Magnus was discovered) were apparently (rumoured) close to being purged. For example, in Ahriman's words:

"They [Mortartion, Corax & Dorn] feared what we could do, and spread their lies to anyone who would listen that we were witches practising unclean sorcery. Little did any of them realise they were condemning the very powers that allowed them to travel between the stars or spread the malicious rumour-mongering."

"...but more and more of us were falling prey to it [the flesh change] and the voices of our persecutors were growing ever more strident. There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history."

From re-reading the passage in _A Thousand Sons_, it doesn't seem that the Flesh Change debacle was played out privately or in secret, the wider Imperium was seemingly aware of it and condemned the Legion at every opportunity (apparently not helped by "rumour-mongering" and people of influence spreading such rumours to "anyone who would listen"). It's not necessarily about exactly what the Thousand Sons did or whether they produced obscene/enviable displays of psychic power, they were a Legion of witches who had almost been wiped out due to warp-corruption and who drew huge amounts of condemnation along the way. People hated and feared them because of what they were, regardless of what they did. Thus people's perceptions of them, I would argue, created "bad PR" for the Great Crusade. 

For example, a newly compliant world who has just been rescued from the psychic depredations of Old Night joyfully embraces the Imperial Truth and the Emperor's rule. Yet, they learn that one of the eighteen Legions that are spearheading this Crusade to free humanity are themselves a coven of psykers, who this world (and indeed most of the Imperium) perceives to have caused Old Night in the first place. I imagine in this scenario, the Thousand Sons would have been condemned to a greater extent (especially after the Flesh Change debacle which effectively proved that they were unstable and corruptible) than the rumoured atrocities/genocide committed by two of the other Legions. The issue of witches and psykers was one much more prominent given the events of the Age of Strife than of a band of warriors trying to slip the leash and commit a few genocides here and there. Most human worlds in the galaxy had only recently suffered because of rampant psykers (or at least they perceived to have suffered because of psykers - because they blamed the Age of Strife on them) and thus I would suggest this was a much greater issue and cause for "bad PR".


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The "Trial and Sanction" is according to Magnus, he sees the castigation as a foregone conclusion; Nikaea was meant to be discussion into it, but his own bullish stubborn ways didn't help him.

Yes, there was politicing done by Mortarion et al, but Nikaea was, in theory, done with good intentions. I think if the Emperor could have foreseen a way in which Psykers could be used safely, he'd have done so. But he's effectively told a drug user to stop doing drugs; drug user said "no, drugs are ace, look I can fly", and then he realised that drug user was a lost cause, and would likely die of an overdose/get possessed by Chaos.

Have you ever seen a girlfriend leave a controlling, abusive boyfriend? Or if they, they continue to choose that same kind of guy? Have you ever seen a drug user (deep end, habitual, reliant) voluntarily give up their "dependence" on it? 

The Emperor chose to nip it in the bud, because Magnus was the naughty teenager who could not be trusted.


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## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

So why then use or keep that hopeless addict as the keystone of your golden throne/webway project?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because a father's fallible? I'm no t saying that the Horus Heresy was the greatest tale of Love and family ever created, but the Primarch's were the Emperor's Sons, and he loved them a great deal. He was prepared to give Horus the chance at Redemption (or so far, that's the current tale; later Heresy novels should expand on why he didn't just obliterate Horus at the earliest opportunity during the final battle) even after all he had caused; the Emperor was not infallible and believed he could still turn his Son's to good; indeed his very ideal of a future required his Sons to all play their parts.

It seems harsh, but as an NCO, you know yourself that you'd have some more capable at doing some jobs than other; Land Nav, Field-routine, stag, etc. You might not like the guy, but you'd need him to do his job.

Magnus was loyal to the Emperor, in a way similar to how Lorgar was loyal to the Emperor. But when he started to flex his fatherly muscles, and said "stop smoking that shit it's bad for you", Magnus initially followed, but then broke that rule. Drugs are possibly a bad analogy as it's not useful.

Think instead about playing with matches/fire

Emperor says don't put your hand in the fire.
Magnus asks why?
Emperor says trust me.
Magnus does at first, but then gets pissed off, who is he to tell me what to do, because fire makes me nice and warm, so does it in secret.
Then winter comes, and the Emperor gets cold, so Magnus makes a nice big fire, which nearly burns down what little shelter the Emperor/Imperium had. Emperor gets mad, and sends his dog to bring Magnus home and give him a little spanking - although I personally question the choice of Legion; but Magnus runs away and hates Daddy, because Daddy was cruel to him.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> That's the funny thing about PR, you don't actually need to do damage in order to get bad PR. Or do good to get good PR.
> 
> It's all about perceptions.


Exactly. And while we have concrete evidence of the perceptions both within and without the Legiones Astartes regarding the Night Lords and the World Eaters, we have a quote by a single emotional individual that is clearly exaggerated for effect.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, and despite all of that, there was some measure of general acceptance that most of the Legiones Astartes were vital to the war effort and were honourable warriors and unleashed their ferocity only as a last resort. However, regardless of what the individual worlds whom Magnus brought into compliance (and thus had direct dealings with the XV Legion) thought, the vast majority of the Imperium hated and feared psykers, there is no escaping that fact.


And yet we don't see this hatred and fear manifesting at any level even remotely matching that which was reserved for the Night Lords and the World Eaters.

My personal theory of this is that even the _idea_ that large segments of the Imperium knew about the special powers of the Thousand Sons is exaggerated. I have no doubt this was common knowledge among the Imperial Army and Navy personnel that followed the XV Legion. I have no doubt that a number of high-ranking commanders from other Expeditionary Fleets, who had direct contact with the XV Legion, also knew about this. I have no doubt that rumors of this trickled down among various regiments, ships, etc. I seriously doubt that such information was in any way a common commodity, though. We know it wasn't anywhere near as common as "The World Eaters are frothing genocidal butchers who will kill everyone on a planet that resists" or "The Night Lords are sadistic murderers who torture and skin alive innocents just to make examples to anyone who would resist". We know this because the behavior displayed to those two legions is never used with the Thousand Sons.



> Actually, there was. The Night Lords and World Eaters were recalled to Terra to, maybe, be relieved of command or otherwise sanctioned. Yet the Thousand Sons (before Magnus was discovered) were apparently (rumoured) close to being purged. For example, in Ahriman's words:
> 
> "They [Mortartion, Corax & Dorn] feared what we could do, and spread their lies to anyone who would listen that we were witches practising unclean sorcery. Little did any of them realise they were condemning the very powers that allowed them to travel between the stars or spread the malicious rumour-mongering."
> 
> "...but more and more of us were falling prey to it [the flesh change] and the voices of our persecutors were growing ever more strident. There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history."


The former doesn't represent a consensus, though - far from it. I could just as easily argue that those three and Russ were a minority opinion that opposed a project that originally had _the Emperor's_ blessing. I could argue that, just as the Emperor's acceptance of psykers (Astropaths) and mutants (Navigators) led to at least tacit acceptance of those groups among mainstream Humanity, so did the Emperor's acceptance of battle-psyker Space Marines ensure the majority of the Imperial Army and Navy accepted the Thousand Sons as well.

And the latter is referring to a different time altogether. The Night Lords and World Eaters were facing sanctions and worse, and were not looking to recover from that. The Thousand Sons were facing being wiped out at a time when their numbers were already being exterminated by the flesh-change. When Magnus reversed that, the threat went away.



> From re-reading the passage in _A Thousand Sons_, it doesn't seem that the Flesh Change debacle was played out privately or in secret, the wider Imperium was seemingly aware of it and condemned the Legion at every opportunity (apparently not helped by "rumour-mongering" and people of influence spreading such rumours to "anyone who would listen").


You'll have to help me with some citations, man. I'm already facing the daunting project of re-reading the whole series to make sure I'm keeping all the context in mind with the latest releases. I can't afford to jump into the middle of the series right now! :biggrin:



> For example, a newly compliant world who has just been rescued from the psychic depredations of Old Night joyfully embraces the Imperial Truth and the Emperor's rule. Yet, they learn that one of the eighteen Legions that are spearheading this Crusade to free humanity are themselves a coven of psykers, who this world (and indeed most of the Imperium) perceives to have caused Old Night in the first place.


But here you're arguing that a _hypothetical_ somehow equates to (or even exceeds) what the Night Lords and World Eaters were doing, compliance after compliance. You can't escape from the fact that what those two legions did was bad enough that planets that they had a reputation and received a response from potential victims that is never attributed to the Thousand Sons.



> I imagine in this scenario, the Thousand Sons would have been condemned to a greater extent (especially after the Flesh Change debacle which effectively proved that they were unstable and corruptible) than the rumoured atrocities/genocide committed by two of the other Legions.


That's apples and oranges, though. The Emperor was prepared to bring them back and lock them up because their bodies were turning on them, not because of what they were doing. The flesh-change would have been their executioner, not the Emperor. By contrast, the Emperor was absolutely willing to take out Konrad Curze, would have had to take absolutely extreme measures to undo the catastrophic moral degeneration of the Night Lords, and would almost certainly have been willing to see killed all those World Eaters with the Butcher's Nails if they couldn't be removed.


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## kharn130 (Dec 7, 2013)

randian said:


> You mean get fooled by the lies of Chaos, don't you? It is obvious to the omniscient observer i.e. us that he is being played for a fool. It is his ego and pride that he make him think he has discovered "truth"


its truth because the Emperor insisted that there was no gods, but in fact there are, and he even used their help to create the primarchs.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

kharn130 said:


> its truth because the Emperor insisted that there was no gods, but in fact there are, and *he even used their help to create the primarchs.*


I don't honestly ever remember reading that. Where is it stated?

And Chaos is... Chaos. Chaos lies; the gods may just be extremely powerful daemons. They are only gods because they call themselves gods.

The Eldar have "gods", and yet they were created by the Old Ones, so how can they have gods, unless they refer to those ones in a manner to Olympian/Hellenic pantheons, in which they were allegorical myths intended to scare children and a naive populace into a more profitable lifestyle, giving them a reason to do things etc.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Vaz said:


> I don't honestly ever remember reading that. Where is it stated?
> 
> And Chaos is... Chaos. Chaos lies; the gods may just be extremely powerful daemons. They are only gods because they call themselves gods.
> 
> The Eldar have "gods", and yet they were created by the Old Ones, so how can they have gods, unless they refer to those ones in a manner to Olympian/Hellenic pantheons, in which they were allegorical myths intended to scare children and a naive populace into a more profitable lifestyle, giving them a reason to do things etc.


Erebus hints at it to Horus in False Gods that the Emperor dealt with the chaos gods in order to create the primarchs, and so does Ingrethel the Ascended to Lorgar. As well the daemon speaking to Corax in that shortie book which's name in eludes me. Daemons and chaos are liars, but they are not above speaking the 'truth', or fragments or shadows of it when it benefits them. But as said in the past, chaotic entities are not the most exactly credible truth witnesses.

But the Night Lords have one of the most apt nomers for the Imperium, 'The Throne of Lies'. If we are to take Mechanicum for Truth, then the Emperor founded the Grand Lie of Mars in the distant past, planning for the rise of their technophile cult in the far future. Lies upon lies upon lies, in geological strata.

It is little wonder that the Seekers of Truth became insane, turning into the Scourged when they heard all the lies the Imperium was built upon.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Scourged


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

So a man following daemons orders and a daemon itself. 

While I'm not saying the Emperor didn't lie about things, I just love how quick people are to defend chaos and say "look, the emperor lied", when all we have is self serving propaganda for the daemons.

It's one of those big "well shit" things that the 40K universe is founded on; who the two missing legions are, were the primarchs forged by chaos, how ork technology works, and why Horus was chosen as warmaster outside of "because i said so".


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> So a man following daemons orders and a daemon itself.
> 
> While I'm not saying the Emperor didn't lie about things, I just love how quick people are to defend chaos and say "look, the emperor lied", when all we have is self serving propaganda for the daemons.
> 
> It's one of those big "well shit" things that the 40K universe is founded on; who the two missing legions are, were the primarchs forged by chaos, how ork technology works, and why Horus was chosen as warmaster outside of "because i said so".


I think what they were referring to originally was not the Emperor's (supposed) hypocrisy concerning treating with daemons/gods, but actually his denial of their existence. 

That is, after all, the main revelation that Lorgar discovered during his pilgrimage. As the conversation between Argel Tal and Cyrene went:



'But what if were being lied to?'

It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.

But Argel Tal said none of this. He was weary of such explanation.

'I remember your words after Monarchia died in the Emperor's fire. You told me it was the day you truly began to believe that gods were real, once you had seen such power unleashed. I felt the same when I saw the power at work in this storm. Can you understand that, Cyrene?'

'I understand.'


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think the Heresy was a failure of trust, faith, and planning. Trust because the Emperor should have shared his vision with more of his sons to let them know what the hell was going on. Faith because the Emperor thought that his with holding this information was would be beneficial as well as leaving his favored son in charge of a group of emotionally maladjusted demigods. Planning because this whole Heresy shows that with one guy being turned, the whole Imperium was fucked. This guy was on the verge of building a new future for humanity. He'd already dealt with an episode requiring primarchs to get sanctioned so them being infallible wasn't a thought. For a genius it seems like a pretty simple idea to not let something so important be taken over so easily.


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## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I think the Heresy was a failure of trust, faith, and planning. Trust because the Emperor should have shared his vision with more of his sons to let them know what the hell was going on. Faith because the Emperor thought that his with holding this information was would be beneficial as well as leaving his favored son in charge of a group of emotionally maladjusted demigods. Planning because this whole Heresy shows that with one guy being turned, the whole Imperium was fucked. This guy was on the verge of building a new future for humanity. He'd already dealt with an episode requiring primarchs to get sanctioned so them being infallible wasn't a thought. For a genius it seems like a pretty simple idea to not let something so important be taken over so easily.


Perhaps that was his intention in the first place? The Emperor cannot be the big daddy that's around forever, and if this is what Humanity will become in order to survive, is it even worth preserving?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

For the preservation of the race, humanity in terms of warp use are at best pre-pubescent children. Very few who understand the warp remain loyal to the Emperor and humanity. So his presences is still very necessary.


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