# Let Your Mind Wander Outside the Box, If Only For a Moment..



## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

OK, so after reading for hours and hours each day on this website, as well as others, one starts to notice redundancy in many threads. I am mainly hinting at army composition and lists. I know this is continually brought up, and people incessantly argue about whether or not it should be done. To get directly to my point, I grow tired of seeing so many people giving the same advice, i.e. Vulkan, Assault Terminators, Lash Princes, Obliterators, Eldrad, etc. I am not arguing that these units are not useful, or should be left behind in lieu of "fun" or "fluffy" units. On the contrary, these units are all extremely powerful, and there is a reason people suggest them. The purpose of this thread, however, is for people to suggest alternatives, ways to incorporate less commonly fielded units(to good effect, or just for the potential to have an enjoyable gaming experience), suggest unorthodox tactics, and the list goes on. I encourage players from all factions of 40k to participate. However, seeing as most of the experience I have(which, is to be honest, somewhat limited) is with space marines, I will start off the thread with information pertaining to them. I hope this thread will grow to thrive, and please feel free to leave any comments, ideas, etc.

-Using Varro Tigurius
As many people know, librarians are a rather common sight amongst space marine armies, and for good reason. They can help the army in various ways, depending on how the player equips them. The exception to this is with the Chief librarian of the Ultramarines, Varro Tigurius. Upon first glance, it is quite understandable why this is the case. He is the second most expensive character in the space marine codex(if memory serves me correctly), has a less than desirable statline, and the worst part, no invulnerable save. However, I suggest that you look past these weaknesses(do not completely disregard them, just take an objective stance for a minute), you will find that he does have some unique, and I personally believe, quite powerful and unique abilities. 
1. He has access to every space marine power. The key point in this is that he is able to fill in any particular role a librarian might be called upon to undertake. As a matter of fact, he can go a step beyond, which leads me to my second point.
2. He can use three powers a turn. Surely one can easily see the potential with a third power at their disposal. One that immediately stuck out in my mind is to hunt a MC, or straggling HQ. By using the powers listed in the following order: The Quickening, Might of the Ancients, and the final power on the force weapon. I know he is fragile, but imagine an HQ with fleet, initiative 10, strength 6, and a master-crafted force weapon. Somebody is going to die, more than likely(If someone is willing to math-hammer this against various opponents to either support or refute my theory, that would be swell!). 
3. With his power Gift of Prescience, one gains much more control over their reserves. LZ(i.e. objective) still hot, and need to keep the drop podding tactical squad in orbit another turn so you can clear it? Well, you are going to have a much better chance of doing so if you are able to re roll the reserve roll, to negate a roll that would have them arriving. Perhaps a delayed(bravo?) strike? Once the enemy has begun to wear thin, imagine his face when multiple fresh units arrive! 
I am sure that there are many more potential uses for him, these are just off of the top of my head. Now, as far as what squad to pair him up with(lets face it, he needs to be with a squad, or he is going to face a most gruesome death), I am going to suggest another less than popular unit. The Legion of the Damned. My reasoning behind this is that:
1. They provide a wonderful 3+ invulnerable save, which should help divert any potential dangerous incoming fire from killing off our subject prematurely. Also, with a full squad, that is a pretty good amount of ablative wounds(admittedly expensive, however..)
2. They have enough attacks to theoretically save him from becoming tarpitted easily(Although this is not foolproof. Not likely saving you from 30 boyz...).
3. Due to their Slow and Purposeful, they can be equipped in a fashion similar to whatever you are currently tasking Tigurius for. Monstrous Creatures an issue? Lascannon(or whatever suites your fancy), plasma gun, and the previously mentioned power combination, if you will. Hordes? Flamer, heavy flamer, and Varro can use the Avenger. Tank hunting? Multi-melta, melta gun, and Vortex of Doom. Also, once they have accomplished their current objective, he can Gate them over to another area they could be put to good use.
4.Most will point out will point out that the Legion of the Damned must deepstrike in, and that Tigurius may not deepstike alongside them. This is true; however, with the afore mentioned Gift of Prescience, the player is more likely to get them into action sooner. I am sure someone would point out that he is vulnerable in the meantime. I would propose that he be attached to another squad in the meantime, and Gate over to them when they arrive.
In closing, I want everyone who reads this to be fully aware that I know that this is NOT a super competitive, crush everyone and their grandmother type of tactica I have laid out above. The suggested units involved are quite expensive points wise, perhaps prohibitively so to some. It is, however, to my knowledge, an unconventional and interesting idea that I think would be a breath of fresh air to a lot of people's tables. Which is exactly what I am aiming fork: So, let's hear the comments, ideas, complaints, etc!


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Too much information to take in and respond to? Haha I did not intend to create a wall of text, just had a whole lot to say, I suppose:grin: Is my theory at least logical? Or feasible?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

On many levels, i wholeheartly agree. Powerlist schmowerlist. The purpose is to have fun your way.
I have also tried to make my comments on armylists (although mostly in the fantasy forums) less cookie cutter and more inspirational. Aka, suggestions to improve lists while still sticking to the theme of the army (unless they ask for a tourney viable army). 

However, I don't think we shouldn't mention these cheasy tactics at all. Sometimes newer players asking for don't always know how to ask the right questions. So we might make their army a lot more fluffy/experimental even when they just wanted to know more about the balance of the game and their race (what's good, what's not and why).

While I don't have any comments on your list specific ideas (other than: Play them! And gives us a battle report!) I do like your point.
I'd like to return with some "inefficient" tacticas myself. Just have to try things out first. :so_happy:


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for responding! I agree with you, people should suggest many ideas to newer players, not just powerlists that crush the opponent. It just puts people on a single track mindset, and I feel that people should be creative in their list building. As they say, variety is the spice of life!


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

viva la chaos lord con a bloodfeeder y la dreadnaught de chaos! yay spanglish!


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I think creativity is key to building lists. And so is having fun and trying to stay within a theme. But it takes away all the fun to see your army continually thrashed, beaten, and broken by other armies that are streamlined to win. Yes, it does lead to cookie cutter armies sometimes but I think the creativity is then thinking "How do I stop this very successful list?" or "How do I build a better one?". 

No new player should be led down the garden path to buy models and armies that he/she may later regret or find utterly useless. I'd call it irresposible by the people that do this to them. And more often than not that leads to bitter players who quit the hobby. I think it's best to explain to them and show them proven lists and then let them build upon them or alter them to suit their desires. That's both creative and competitive. Having fun is still the ultimate goal but who has fun while being continually tabled? Especially since this hobby can be a considerable financial investment so retooling your army can get very expensive.

When I first entered the hobby in 3rd Ed a GW store employee pushed me to buy Ultramarines. Being the kind of guy I was I asked "Who are all the spiky guys? They look way cooler!". From then on it was CSM for me. If I had bought those Ultramarines I would have quit the hobby in a very short time. He tried to lead me to believe they were exactly what I was looking for as a CC army. It angered me so much later to find out what he was presenting me wasn't the best course of action to achieve my goal. Thank-the warp I found Khorne! He did this to one of my other friends at the same time who took his advice and now has a $500 army sitting in his basement he'll never field.

So yes, be creative, but be honest about what is proven to work. Wow, what a rant!:laugh:


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Uilleam, I do agree with you about not giving them poor advice. On the contrary, as doing so would make people want to quit. However, what I am suggesting is suggesting multiple list/unit possibilities, and explaining to them about how some units are better, but to not rule out any unit that does not consistently destroy anything it comes across. Let them know what all of the units do, why they are good, or perhaps are best not used if the only goal is to win. The main goal should be to suggest units that the player will enjoy using. Some people enjoy watching berzerkers kill just about anyone they cross blades with, while others get a kick out of the randomness that is the shock attack gun. It just all depends.


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Also, jesse, I forgot to respond to your post. I have witnessed a bloodfeeder in action, as my brother uses one on a mounted lord... good heavens can that thing get a lot of attacks! And as far as chaos dreads go, I just bought two forge world thousand son dreads, so we will see how that goes:grin:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The problem is that most of the feedback you're seeing is on the internet. How people talk online is very different to how people talk in person.

It's a rare person indeed who, upon seeing a "What do I buy next" post, immediately embarks upon a thorough review of the entire codex, suggests multiple list types that the player might be interested in, and reviews every special character in the book. Most people can't be bothered to do all that (myself included) so they just make the same "power list" suggestions and leave it at that. However if you sat down in a room with someone and spoke face-to-face, then I'm sure that you would have a much more wide-reaching discussion.

For example:

Last week at my club we had a new player turn up, who plays Eldar (!). This is exciting for me, because previously I have been the only Eldar player we have. I started getting into a discussion with him about how he could expand his army, and generally I said "Add tanks". However he then replied with "I don't really want to play Mech though". So I chewed that over for a while and then asked "Well what style of list would you like to play?" and he said "Something hit-and-run." We then proceeded to have a fairly comprehensive conversation about the pros and cons of Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks and Vyper jetbikes, all of which I consider to be sub-par at best. However we managed to beat out a general theme of a double-autarch army that uses deep striking spiders and outflanking war walkers with Ranger support and a couple of grav tanks. If this had been online I would probably have said "Take Eldrad" and left it at that.

TL, DR: It's not that everyone *wants* to give the same advice, it's just the internet that creates stratification of army lists.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

There is also the fact that some units are just better. When asked for advice, people naturally list the best units and leave it at that. There is also the friendly vs competitive aspect. When listing for a tournament or competitive play, you will see the best of the best, streamlined lists and units. I'll give an example with Swooping Hawks.

They are generally considered to be a sub par unit and I agree with that. I do not think it is possible to include this unit in a true streamlined competitive list. The unit will simply be wasted points. You can talk about all the great strategies, ideas, etc you want. At the end of the discussion it comes down to points cost vs usefulness and these guys do not stack up with other units in the Eldar codex and so will not be used in competitive lists.

However, in a friendly list this unit is tons of fun. I use a 10 man squad quite often when I play with my friends. Sometimes they do really well when I get to play my friends IG or Orks army, but if I draw against a marine or CSM army, they usually bite the dust without doing much. (Usually, every now and then they pull one of those "oh my god, I can't believe they just killed that" moments)

I would say almost every unit in most codexs has a place in friendly play. Not every unit has a place in a streamlined competitive list and most people on here will give the units designed for competitive play only, hence why you only see certain units being suggested.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree with the OP. 

However, there are some problems. Playing balanced lists is fun, and there are a few armies which can do it well. A friend of mine uses a very balanced Tau list to good effect. 

On the other hand, many armies suffer from a balanced list. WH I know from experience suck when used in balance, because none of their units in particular stand out as tremendously good. But, many of their units are very bad. So to make up for it, you have to have a lot of something that is decent and use it's strength to try and overcome. 

5th edition IMO supports the spam list because of troops being the only scoring unit. Naturally it is thus important to spam troops if possible. This is why you see Green Horde armies with Kustom Force Fields wrecking people. It's just how 5th ed makes the game. 

Think of it this way. A balanced army is slightly good at A, B and C and is slightly weak against A, B, and C. Then someone makes a spam army which completely focus on B and is extremely strong against A and B but very weak against C. The first army cannot field enough C to deal with the second army's weakness, but since the first army is slightly weak against B and the second army has so much of it, the second army crushes them. After this pattern, we unfortunately see a lot of spam. 

Sure, I could crush an army that was only good at A and B but completely weak to C by making my own army extremely strong at C, but then I would get beat by everyone else. 

Personally I have never ran a "tourney" list and never plan to. The closest I may ever come is a full Leman Russ or full Immolator list, but just for the fun of painting and fielding all the tanks.


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone. Arcane, you have a good point about how a lot of armies that spam a certain ability/characteristic have a certain advantage. I want it to be clear that in making this thread, I was not suggesting people use units that are sub par. I am suggesting that people find new uses for units, some of which may be have been previously thought less than spectacular. I am trying to get people to break the monotony that is present in so many armies(Arcane, again I understand that some armies are not able to this, but quite a few are, as they have a plethora of units to choose from).


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I like what most people have written here. I could easily field a stock standard Mech army list for my IG if I so wanted, but I refuse to use a tank.... they are awful things and I refuse to allow my guardsmen near them.

That said. I wish this game was more like fantasy in which your almost unaware of what your opponent has at some times such as characters lurking in units etc. 40k seems to be very upfront about I am seeing your list totally and fully and want to know your mothers maiden name before I play you and did you wash your hands before you touched the table thankyou very much...That leads to people creating tailor made kill that lists.... thats a pure development of rules lawyering and the grossly over opinionated local games pros...

The tournament scene in general is to blame for it. Most even "friendly games" I see now compared to 2nd edition are a lot more RULEZ LAWYERZ than there were before. You simply need to walk into a GW with a black case.... and stand quietly and look slightly aloof and within 10 seconds of a "click" your case is open the store LAWYERZ and greatest I am ZE SUPERIORZ CRITICIAL TYPEZ PERSONAS come rushing over to examine what you have painted and if its the in thing..... for whatever army you have. They then normally if they think your selection is bad, snub you.... or give you the down the nose lecture of what they would have done. If you happen to be a superior painter and your list is the rage, they will immediately call every other minion of the cause over and then question you to see if you are acceptable material to join their in group. (Note the ring leader of this, will have 17 armies all painted a huge GREY NOT EVEN UNDERCOATED look to them).

I have often turned up at a GW, watching all this and then watch the poor bugger 13 year old who really does not know his ultramarines that well, and I ask him what he plays and he sheepishly says marines and I ask to see his figures and they usually are not in codex configuration and some even look like they were vomitted on. But I always smile and say hey good work and ask him what he is going to do with them and what his plans are. (Which usually are when I get my pocket money... I am gunna..!) I remember one kid about 2 years ago..... was sitting in GW miserable as hell as he couldn't paint a figure like his mates, I sat there and tried to help him but it was a bit hard and being an older male, the last thing you want to do is start showing too much attention to young teenage boys in shopping complexes..... so I opened my case and handed him an old space marine sgt that was in some stupid pose I had always hated. I gave it to him and said their you go son, go show your brother that....

I saw him about three weeks ago, and he remembered me and he had gone ahead and kept his interest in the hobby and even painted an entire chapter worth of Ultramarines and gotten a hell of a lot better and he had used the old figure I had given him as his vetran sgt ever since. I was completely chuffed at this, as it meant something to me.

I wish their were more players like that around now..... and players who were more interested in actually beer and chips playing or spending an evening playing a good game instead of working out how the latest doomrolla was going to completely DESTROY EVERYTHING AND THE SKY WOULD FALL IN ZOMG HALP KITTY HALP!
A good player will shrug and then say... ok fine, now how would i contend with it. A rulez lawyer will have to post 20 times how they disagree with it.

Oh dear.... I have waffled...

As for a funky list.... the easiest way to do it.

Pick a theme and then do the list and use it for a few months.... vs a variety of opponents and see if you get better.

Pick an ALL INFANTRY GUARD ARMY, not 1 Chimera.... you learn a LOT more about movement and placement and cover saves than you EVER WILL WANT TO AGAIN.

Pick an ELDAR ARMY based around only 1 aspect. Make it Banshees and tool everything to support them...

Design a Tau army that uses an ethereal only as its HQ.

Design an Ork army that is based solely around storm boyz in WW1 style assualt fashion with burna boy support and zero trucks.

Design a full cavalry army............ IG with nothing but RR and two squads of support. Watch it as it streams towards the necron advance and smile and see what happens.

Thats how you come up with qurikly combinations and learn more from a tactical point of view than you EVER will following ZOMG MY LIST FROM HERE PWNZ YOU.

With a swirl of his black jacket Commissar Alexious, thinks of designing a full Mordian army as Commissar cadets and Storm Troopers.... just because it would look awesome, and departs for the gaming table... DUM DUM DAH!!!!!

LOL... Cheers All.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

i think this also comes down to people make an army for fun and stick in stuff that they think looks awesome, it may not be the best unit or character for a given situation BUT IT LOOKS AWEZOMEEEE!!!

personally with some thing like PF-ing units, i do it cause a huge crackling pimp slap to the enemy appeals to me, the fact that it is effective is a bonus :grin:

Strange army layout:
-SM army with only Scouts as Troops and Assault Marines as FA, with a Suicidal Terminator Chaplain, with all possible wargear 

my 2cents (unfortunately they scrapped the 1cent coin in AUS so it'd be rounded to 5 cents)


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## Darkblade (May 10, 2009)

Alexious said:


> I saw him about three weeks ago, and he remembered me and he had gone ahead and kept his interest in the hobby and even painted an entire chapter worth of Ultramarines and gotten a hell of a lot better and he had used the old figure I had given him as his vetran sgt ever since. I was completely chuffed at this, as it meant something to me.


This kind of people makes the hobby a nice social type of hobby, you Alexious, are awesum


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Strange army layout:
> -SM army with only Scouts as Troops and Assault Marines as FA, with a Suicidal Terminator Chaplain, with all possible wargear


Well done, you just described my Scout army, except I have Shrike and the Chaplain goes with the Assault marines! :laugh:


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for the posts, guys! Alexious, just wow! A goldmine of information there. I liked the story about your sgt motivating the kid, and the alternative army ideas are great! I know what you mean about the rules lawyers, my brother is one from time to time... It really just sucks the fun out of the game. I am glad you shared so many ideas. Thank you! WarlordKaptainGrishnak, powerfists do look awesome, no argument here! I love mine on assault marine sgts. As far as the scouts army goes, I have actually heard of a few people that run those, to rather good effect to boot.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Alexious said:


> That said. I wish this game was more like fantasy in which your almost unaware of what your opponent has at some times such as characters lurking in units etc. 40k seems to be very upfront about I am seeing your list totally and fully and want to know your mothers maiden name before I play you and did you wash your hands before you touched the table thankyou very much...That leads to people creating tailor made kill that lists.... thats a pure development of rules lawyering and the grossly over opinionated local games pros...
> 
> The tournament scene in general is to blame for it.


Your conclusion in no way follows from your premise. The nature of tournament play is to utilise a single take all comers list. The rest of your vitriol appears to be directed at how tournament play has destroyed the hobby...



Alexious said:


> and stand quietly and look slightly aloof and within 10 seconds of a "click" your case is open the store LAWYERZ and greatest I am ZE SUPERIORZ CRITICIAL TYPEZ PERSONAS come rushing over to examine what you have painted and if its the in thing....


You were in a GW store. That alone is 99% accurate proof that those inside won't have the first clue what they are talking about (especially staff). These people are not tournament types, they are idiots. A subtle distinction I'm sure. For what it's worth i've had considerably more problems with store LAWYERZ than I've ever had at a major tournament.



Alexious said:


> I wish their were more players like that around now.....or spending an evening playing a good game instead of working out how the latest doomrolla was going to completely DESTROY EVERYTHING AND THE SKY WOULD FALL IN ZOMG HALP KITTY HALP!
> A good player will shrug and then say... ok fine, now how would i contend with it. A rulez lawyer will have to post 20 times how they disagree with it.


My fun is more fun than your fun. A member of another forum summed up this attitude by calling it "the casual gaming mafia". Heres how it really is- you are not a good player until you start trying to compete against good opponents. You are not a great player until you play against great opponents. The best players are found at the top tables of major tournaments, so if you want to be a great player play in major tournaments. I was once a big fish in a tiny pond. I thought I was awesome at the game because I never lost. I now lose about 50% of my games. I've found better opponents. I also threaten the podium in any major tournament I attend (I generally walk any local tournaments).

A successful tournament scene has dramatically increased the amount of debate, thought and conjecture surrounding the game of warhammer 40k. The game has benefitted massively as a result.

The question may be why is being good at the game important? Surely it's the taking part thats fun? Good question OddJob. The answer is that is true for a lot of people but not all. Why oh, why do those who choose not to play hard (or more often are incapable of it) feel they have some kind of moral superiority. If anything those who play at a high level have the superiority as they can dumb down their game to play cinematically (as I often do with my 20 Grey Knight Terminators).

The casual gaming mafia's passive aggressive moral superiority arguement annoys me no end, as you can possibly tell from my wall of anti-rant rant.

In summary, any wargame is only as good as your opponents. If you aren't enjoying yourself find better ones, but don't try a strawman arguement against tournament gaming.

Back on topic, and stickign with the OPs marine theme:

Whenever I field my marine army, which isn't often, I like to go with a drop pods and vanguard theme. All of my pods have locator beacons so the heroicly interventing vanguard can be totally accurate on the way in. IIRC my Hq was a librarian with gate to allow terminators to jump round the board.

The game becomes a game of whack-a-mole as my opponent tries to destroy my beacons while more arrive from reserve. Fun? Aye. Effective? Hell no!


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Haha nice oddjob, I like the idea of the opponent not knowing who is going to pop up next. That being said, I have to disagree with what you said about the people who want to play against lists that are not tournament grade. I would not necessarily blame it on tournament players as the win-at-all-costs type. The problem is that the latter usually use lists created by the former. I watched my brother who got about three friends into game make them quit after only a month or two by being an ass and just being ruthless. He would use his Khorne CSM army, and just demolish them, every time. Even only told them about the annihilation mission, so that he could just table them over and over. Quite sad, really. Yeah, it can be fun to have an army that hits like a freight train, but if you are the opponent of said list, it can get old. Especially when multiple people are running that same list. A person shouldn't need to tailor a list just to win a friendly game.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I agree that Tourny Players ruin some of the fun, as they are the 1st to scream rules in your face, and they break those same rules to help them win. All Tourneys do this and the Refs are just as bad as they make the calls on UNCLEAR or UNDEFINED rules as how they see it. I however try to play Competetive as possible as well to better understand the rules and form "winning" list. I still have no problem with Non Cookie cutter list as I Refuse to buy another Lash DP, I use one and only one :angry:, or a Sorceror. I dont like being tabled everygame either :ireful2:. My friend made a superb Dakka Army with SMs and beat me alot. instead of winning i made a slightly more Cookie Cutter / Tailored list and had fun pulling draws or winning :biggrin:. If you continued to loose to better players you have yourself to blame, dont play those kinds of people :nono:. 

Anyway my next to worthless 2 cents. Here is the Dakka SM list my friend made. Master of the Forge, 3 Dreads with Lascannons and ML, 10 or so Stern Gaurd, 1 Squad of 5 Devies with 4 MLs, a Thunder Cannon, and 5 Squads of 5 Tac marines with Lascannons/HB Razor Backs. As you can see its very Dakka and has blown my Transports and Troops away with ease. Not a standard list from what Ive seen either.

I myself run a non Cookie Cutter lists that works very well for CSMs. One is CC beast that deals well with Mech Armies. Termie Lord with MoK and DW, 4-5 Termies with Combi Weapons and 1 HF, 6 Chosen with 4 Meltas in Rhino, 3 Squads of 10 CSMs (with Icon, 2 Meltas, and PF Champ) in Rhinos, 2 squads of 2-3 Oblits, and a LR with Huron and 10 KBs to roll over a flank. I have a special Character that other than Kharn that is good at rolling thru Light/Heavy Infantry in a squad of CC monsters. My Melta Chosen Outflank to pop all the armore. My CSMs are decked out for Dreads, MCs, and Armore as well. The Termie Lord with his Termies has killed 10 man Squad of GK Termies on the charge. I use 1 cookie list unit, Oblits. No Plague Marines, no Double Lash.


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Warlock, that space marine list sounds like two tons of fun! I am seriously going to give that a try. And as far as the terminator lord with the bloodfeeder, I have no idea why more people do not use it; I have had my brother decimate entire squads with that thing. Consistently.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I agree that Tourny Players ruin some of the fun, as they are the 1st to scream rules in your face, and they break those same rules to help them win. All Tourneys do this and the Refs are just as bad as they make the calls on UNCLEAR or UNDEFINED rules as how they see it.


I think you're being unfair to people who play in tournaments. I think you're labelling everyone with a ridiculously huge post-it note as "Assholes" when you yourself have not sampled enough of the population to get an accurate image of how tournament players behave.

Generally speaking, the tournament players I know are;

- Quiet and friendly.
- Knowlegeable of the rules 100% and will sort out any questions with a minimum of fuss.
- Good opponents who teach you new ways of playing your own army, highlight mistakes you made so you don't repeat them and will offer good advice on improving your list/play.

Just because they play 20 Nob bikers doesn't mean they're complete blowhards who jeer at your substandard list and scream at you when you do something wrong.

I would appreciate it if sometimes they stopped playing Nob bikers, and tried something a little less "hardcore" but I'm not about to label them as the scum of the earth. That label is reserved for the jerk-off who stands next to the table and touches my models during the game, without asking. Often moving them out of position/cover/coherency. :stabbity death:


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Your conclusion in no way follows from your premise. The nature of tournament play is to utilise a single take all comers list. The rest of your vitriol appears to be directed at how tournament play has destroyed the hobby...
> 
> Not at all, you have misunderstood my post completely then. The tournament scene unfortunately has become the be all and end all of what is seen to be successful as a GW player period by a larger and larger segment of the gaming population. Take a look at what section of the forum posts here are taken up with fluff or modeling or giving constructive input into the hobby comparatively to army lists or rules. But as soon as Wolf Lord sets up a metagame forum... it remains blank empty, where did all the experts run too? How many posts does it require in the NEW GW DEATHROLLA rules in our own forums here for you to come to any other conclusion. One poster had to post over 8 times how wrong GW were even AFTER the fact.
> 
> ...


 I did like your theme though for your army. Nice touch.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

OddJob said:


> The game becomes a game of whack-a-mole as my opponent tries to destroy my beacons while more arrive from reserve. Fun? Aye. Effective? Hell no!


I think you really missed the point Alexious was trying to make.

Or maybe you didn't, but somehow, you felt it offended you, which is just silly. 

He made very good points.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

My response to your post is based around your initial conclusion:



Alexious said:


> The tournament scene in general is to blame for it.


A commonly held view, but a view I believe to be totally wrong.



Alexious said:


> Not at all, you have misunderstood my post completely then. The tournament scene unfortunately has become the be all and end all of what is seen to be successful as a GW player period by a larger and larger segment of the gaming population. Take a look at what section of the forum posts here are taken up with fluff or modeling or giving constructive input into the hobby comparatively to army lists or rules. But as soon as Wolf Lord sets up a metagame forum... it remains blank empty, where did all the experts run too? How many posts does it require in the NEW GW DEATHROLLA rules in our own forums here for you to come to any other conclusion. One poster had to post over 8 times how wrong GW were even AFTER the fact.


And so what if it has? Is your fun more fun than their fun? Tournament players by their very nature take the game more seriously and invest more of their time into the outcome of a game. They wish to debate and discuss issues around the playing of the game more than a casual gamer and as such have a much higher representation on forums such as this. 

I'll quote myself from the response I gave before:
"You are not a great player until you play against great opponents. The best players are found at the top tables of major tournaments, so if you want to be a great player play in major tournaments."
What you want is a great hobbyist. Subtle distinction.

It's the casual gamers that make rules debates go on for so long rather than those who understand the rules. Even then, don't confuse forum debate with the real world. One is a medium designed to produce opinion and structured debate and the other is a forum (/jk, but only a little). I have engaged in myriad long winded rules debates on forums that will have little to no bearing on any game just to improve my understanding of the rules as a whole. This in no way dictates how I go about playing a game.



Alexious said:


> As for being in a GW store, yep I go there a lot. I support and pay cash to the company that provides me with the basis of my hobby. I pay for it, I tend to get what I need and what I am interested in, chat a bit, then take off. I don't think that in itself is bad. Would I be more comfortable going down there and the environment being less store rulez lawywerz and more about the hobby itself? Yes.... and thats what I am driving at. Where do you think this group developed or it came from? It came from the focus on the tournament scene rather than the game/hobby itself. Monopoly and Scrabble amongst other games have a tournament scene too, in fact much larger than GW's footprint ever can be. But you don't see a sub culture developing that is elitisit about it or it stops people from actually enjoying their hobby or giving up on it because of it, as others have commented here.


What you describe are assholes with few social skills. Our hobby tends to attract them, and as such they are present in all walks of the hobby. Their aspiration to be a tournament king should not be confused with any actual ability to do so, or representation of the tournament scene as a whole.



Alexious said:


> I disagree, a great player... a truly great player is more than a I win. They are an amabassador for game, a teacher, an educator and are open to assisting other players in their development and pushing the boundaries of the hobby forward not just in gaming but in painting or modeling also. Not just their own I win in so many of my local games... The hobby should be as much about that as the focus is on winning the game.


A great hobbyist is what you describe. A great player pretty much is the 'I win'. A surprisingly small number of the great players lack social skills as described above and can therefore win in an acceptable manner.

Is being a great Hobbyist a loftier goal than being a great player? I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but you have to be able to indulge in the army list or rules debates effectively to be a great player.



Alexious said:


> When the nature of game comes down to nit picking almost to the point of a legal argument over a sentence, then I think thats where the benefit has stopped. Take the top 5 forums and look at the Doom of Mal entries. People are arguing like its before the High Court or Privy Council... its not and after every rulez lawyer has chimed in with their thoughts and nit picking any learner to the game walks away after reading 30 posts NONE the wiser then how has that helped? It certainly and I am sure you will cede the point seem not the change the opinions of anyway from GW in development and rules as they still take forever to make a ruling on anything.


Don't confuse forums with real life. The internets biggest boon is also it's biggest curse- everyone gets to stick an oar in. A lot of those who do so don't have a scooby and it takes a certain level of experience to sort the wheat from the chaff. A beginner can't do this, but why does that matter? 99% of the issues do not matter to casual gamers anyway. 



Alexious said:


> Incapable of it? There would be a lot more capable players if the trend was toward more friendly gaming and education in the local gaming place or GW store than the rulez lawyer factions. Your argument appears to be, I am superior as I can win vs the local tournament scene. You have missed my point again, I beleive the tournament scene is good, maybe I didnt make that clear, its that psuedo tournament nature of how even friendly games have become at the local GW or hobby store.


With respect, I havn't missed your point. Read again the first quote in this post. Your point has morphed from an anti-tournament gamer arguement to an anti-pseudo-tournament gamer arguement. That is a mentality I can fully support.

My arguement is that competition breeds better players. Tournaments are competition. A vet without social skills pwning a nOOb is not competition.

As to capability, I have two analogies I like to use when my mates take the piss for me still playing toy soldiers:

I played rugby when I was 12. Now that I am 27 I am still playing rugby but it is a completely different game to that which I played at 12 with infinately more to consider in order to be successful. When I was younger I had the good fortune to play junior international rugby where every detail was analysed and considered, understood and acted upon. Most GW regulars never get past the 12 year old stage. Many vets achieve the 27 year old stage. Very, very, few ever manage the junior international stage and it requires constant work to maintain. 

Poker is a relatively simple game with a basis in luck. Yet despite this surface observation the same people keep arriving on the final table of the big tournaments. 40k is very like this. Just because most people can't see the subtle gambits and tactics does not mean they aren't there.



Alexious said:


> Sorry you feel that way, but at the end of the day its the casual gaming mafia as you put it, that keeps the coffers of GW full and producing items, not the tournament hard core players. For every minature you buy, legions of 16 and 17 year olds grab an AOBR boxed set and then half will give it away as they face what I have described. Would you be happier as a gamer if every year you faced a growing multitude of growing and learning players rather than half of them stop playing due to the experience they have in their local games store. Their is room for both Oddjob, its just I see a negative sub culture developing from a desire of people to be seen as elitist. Its probably not the true tournament players, and I know a few who are awesome and great too, I would hope if your as good a player as you suggest to us that you are, that you offer advice, help and be constructive with it, whether your gaming at the local club or with your mates or when you do happen to grace the local GW.


It's casual gamers that fill the coffers, not the casual-gaming-mafia (CGM). They are not the same thing. The CGM are the polar opposite of your pseudo-tournament-eliteists, hobby eliteists that are disgusted that others want to debate intricate rules, the effect of GW rulings on army lists, metagames and other tournament specific schenanigans. They are two sides of the same coin and equally repugnant. I doubt that you are really in this bracket as you have taken the time to respond in a coherent manner, but your initial post smacked of the CGM.



Alexious said:


> As i have stated, the argument is not against tournamnet gaming... I enjoy it myself and I do ok, have even won a few in my time and a few painting comps etc back in the day. But it riles me that a sub culture of elitism at the Local GW seems to be growing and as you rightly point out.... they don't really know what they are doing or are contributing to the positive aspects of the hobby. Its not a beat up on the strategist or the tournament player, hell have more of them. its a beat up on what shall we call it? the "I am so pro" gamer.


I sentiment I fully support.

I quite enjoy such a frank exchange of views. I am aware that my spelling is fairly painful on the eye.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I love it when we get multiple replies "Agreeing in a confrontational manner". Well, that's about the best way I can describe it, anyway.

*cheers from the sidelines*


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I think you're being unfair to people who play in tournaments. I think you're labelling everyone with a ridiculously huge post-it note as "Assholes" when you yourself have not sampled enough of the population to get an accurate image of how tournament players behave.


Tourney Players play tourneys to win, they are not all assholes, but most want to win no matter how they do it. Those that enter Painting Competetions are nice, helpful, ect. becuase their not Battling someone directly to win. 

Edit: I thought I should also add this is my experiance, I don't travel the world at mutiple events, just my experiance as the Casual Gamer :wink:


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## Spider (Feb 17, 2010)

I think that Might of the Emperor had a good theme for a thread here and I think that Alexious built on that. We would do well to get back to that.

Oddjob - I have to say you just hijacked the whole thing. Your abusive views of various people eg idiots, assholes just seem to bear out some of the stereotypes that people were raising about tourney players. And views such as 'my fun is more fun than your fun' speak for themselves.

Isnt the point here that we all need to have a bit of respect for each other and how we want to play the game. Particularly if people are playing newbies, junior players etc.

I think that we are all in it for a bit of fun and in many cases that comes from winning and excelling.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

Spider said:


> I think that Might of the Emperor had a good theme for a thread here and I think that Alexious built on that. We would do well to get back to that.
> 
> Oddjob - I have to say you just hijacked the whole thing. Your abusive views of various people eg idiots, assholes just seem to bear out some of the stereotypes that people were raising about tourney players. And views such as 'my fun is more fun than your fun' speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


What he said.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

sooo....haha random armies aye unconventional tactics aye, yes nice thread.. (yes attempting to pull this thread back from the brink of dead-ism)

what about....A random Ork list with 2 Weidboyz as HQ, 3 squads of 15 Tankbustas, 6 squads of 30 Gretchin, 3 squads of 20 Stormboyz, and 3 squads of 10 Flash Gitz....yeah hell random list...who in their right mind would take 180 Grots as Troops choice..but hey thats they point, unconventional-ist lists :biggrin:

WKG


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Hey thanks for steering this back on track, Spider and WarlordKaptainGrishnak. Ha I actually have considered making a grot army, if only for the pure shock of somebody actually doing it, to the point of currently owning a plastic baggie full of them. Not sure if I will follow through, but it would be an amusing site to behold... Here is another idea, I believe this has been mentioned before, but how about a massive SM alpha strike? Has anyone actually tried it? Sternguard and/or vanguard show up to kill the VIPs, scouts/landspeeder storms and dreads for the armour. Some type of heavy support? I do not know, perhaps someone could expand upon it? I put here because I have never seen it done, but it is unquestionably characteristic of the space marines. What about the new Battle Missions book? Any cool army lists or units that stand out for certain missions?


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

Okay, here's a question. Has anyone ever taken Guardians in Wave Serpents? I haven't tried it yet, but some day I am going to deposit a squad of ten Guardians with a scatter laser and (maybe) destructor/singing spear warlock right next to <enemy unit/tank> and <enemy unit/tank> is going to cry like baby. Possibly including a guide/doomseer, who will stay in the tank when they get out.
Total unit cost: 95 for guardians, 123 or maybe 133 with the warlock.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Eh, I'd rock storm squad guardians and take flamers instead. Not because it's better, but because if you're going to suicide a bunch of civilians into a horde of guants you had damn well better have the good grace to pass out the flamethrowers.

In regards to the thread: excellent. It could have so easily become an utter fucking trainwreck if people had just been a teensy bit quicker on the draw, but instead it was a really great read.

A lot of it comes down to playing to goof off versus playing to win. I actively enjoy just fucking around some games. Combat patrols in particular can be good for this. At the same time, that's a magical little side game that is related to 40k but is not, in fact, 40k proper. As someone who would rather that the other guy tried his damnedest within the rules to beat me, whether it was in 40k, starcraft, magic or scrabble (I). The tier list in the Smash games may be a depressing fact, but playing the best you can against the best someone else can with high-tier characters is immensly satisfying...

I once beat my then-girlfriend at scrabble by deliberately ditching the Q after using and blocking off the last U and any other outs, timing it properly to go out shortly afterwards. I had... about a 1/3 or perhaps 1/4 chance of pulling the Q, but I knew I'd win as long as I missed it. Devious? Oh hell yes. Did she enjoy the game more in the future knowing that the odds of her stomping me were smaller than she used to beleive? Well, she dumped me, I mean of course she did.

But that doesn't prevent me or anyone else from screwing around and having fun having a lark. 40 in 40 is, honestly, better for this, since that's the only way it even remotely works. They're both perfectly legit. It's just that I at least have the good grace to admit we both have valid ways enjoying things, even if "your" way involves making up a bunch of rules about origionality that have no actual basis in the rules of the game itself.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

yeeesss templates mwhahahaha


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Dude! If the Queen asked a bunch of australians at complete fsking random to save the commonwealth from Xenomorphs, with the completely valid rational that only the Kiwis would survive if she didn't, wouldn't making sure you guys had plenty of fire the only decently royal thing to do?

Cause... that's the kind of completely random times of crisis crap that results in Guardians hitting the field.

edit: with appologies to any Kiwis out there. I <3 you too.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

haha give the kiwi flamers as well cause everybody knows new zealand is just the offspring cell of Australia, when it copied itself using cell division... Cleanse the Xenomorphs with holy fire :biggrin:


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

It won't work. The xenomorphs are cunningly disguised as sheep.

Wait, what?


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

oh no this means new zealand is filled with human-xenomorph hybrids, created through reproduction...


NZ is awesome btw...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Eh, I'd rock storm squad guardians and take flamers instead. Not because it's better, but because if you're going to suicide a bunch of civilians into a horde of guants you had damn well better have the good grace to pass out the flamethrowers.


Eh, but it is better... I always use one in my 1500+ Mech armies for final turn objective clearing or Horde control. Someone outflanked 20 Gaunts with all the trimmings on me, and these guys roasted them like marshmallows on a stick. They have also killed understrength Marine squads fairly regularly. An average of 10 Flamer hits and 5 Heavy Flamer followed by 30 attacks is nothing to sneeze at, although it's a toss up as to whether you go for Enhance or Destructor (the WS4 and I5 is very tasty).


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

I prefer Enhance, just to keep my guys alive for a bit longer, at I5 you are going before the marines and so any casualties that you can cause will keep the poor sculptors alive for longer 

I did a whole foot slogging marine army that worked ok. Footslogging tac squads supported by Dreadnoughts, Typhoons and a 10 man infiltrating Assault Termy squad + Shrike. My opponent was realy caught off guard by this because everyone expects teh power ov teh mechzorz!!!!111 It was just an experiment into footslogging and I think it's something I would look into more.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

I certainly love the idea of experimenting with units. I am currently thinking about ways to field Lucius the Eternal in a way that will make him potent. One idea I've got that sticks out is to attach him with a squad of 5-6 chosen with IoS, two power weapons and two powerfists and the stick them in either a rhino or LR. If it works so much the better, if it doesn't then back to the drawing board. I am sure there are plenty of ways that fun can be had with the Emperor's Children :grin:


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Ha a good point about how fun can be had with the emperor's children. I have always wondered how Lucius would fare on the table. As far as the footslogging marines, I imagine that would catch many people off guard, and cause their anti armour to lose efficiency.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Yeah I've always wondered that too, except everyone on the forums hates him because Kharn can do the same things as Lucius but better for only 5 extra points. I am also considering Fabius Bile if Lucius doesn't work.


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Well, by all means, take the path less traveled and give them a try! That is what this thread is about, after all..:grin:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

My showcase army (underway now that my Raven Guard are finished) has both Lucius and Fabius in as my 2 HQs (pre-heresy Emperor's Children). All the vanilla marines are upgraded with Fabius to make them S5, I5 and Fearless Assault Marines with Boltguns as well! I have no idea if it'll work or not, but at least it'll look good (all of the upgraded marines are truescale)!

Something I thought of was simply splitting Lucius off from his escort as soon as you get in assault range, and attack 2 different squads. Against a marine squad Lucius will get 5 Power Weapon attacks striking first, take 1-2 armour saves against normal attacks (hopefully killing another marine) and then you just need to worry about the 1 attack that the powerfist gets against you. If whatever you're attacking doesn't have a powerfist then it's all gravy.

Fabius Bile just heads for the nearest monstrous creature and laughs as he gets 7 S5 attacks on the charge, and instant-kills them if they fail a save...


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Sethis, that army sounds pretty fun! The more I think about it, Lucius sounds like a downright fun character to play with, and what's more, sounds quite deadly. Like you said, as long as you can keep him from things that would ID him, he would make for quite the nasty HQ.


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