# The inevitable Pre-chaos moan



## warrior-of-hope (Dec 20, 2006)

Damn if i'm not already fed up with the pre-chaos moan. Lash is broken...yet can be stopped by a free piece of wargear librarians have and other races can put the dampener on it too i.e. tyranids and eldar.
All armies can have 9 oblits, all armies can mix troops, they can have vindicators etc....

Then theres the other camp....you need 10 man squads to take heavy weapons, the wargear options are limited, daemons are generic.

Can't people wait till a few games have been played Before they start the codex bashing??


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Nids can put a damper on it? How?

I agree but notice that the majority of the moaning is from the powergamer min/max crowd. Some from the uber fluff nuts as well but not nearly as much. The rest of us actually dig the new book.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Wont knock it much, until i read it, but the whole shape of my army just went tits-up cos I use 8 man, 2 melta weapon infiltrating marine units. Just have to adapt I suppose.


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I used one of those units and two with plasma guns as well. It isn't so bad really as you can actually do that and better with chosen now.


----------



## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I don't particularly care for the new Possessed rules...but the models are kool. I might simply collect Nurgle for the kick-ass look, and play my Loyalists.

-Dirge


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I am seriously considering selling off my current csm's in order to build an army based on those possessed models. To my mind, THAT is exactly what csm's should look like.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Have had a read, and honestly, I cant say anything really sucks about the dex.Sure, stuffs been taken out, added, all the usual nerfy shite, but, all in all, pretty good. I sense Slaaneshii followers appearing quite heavy in my army. All the moaning about taking away background is fair, but antbody could make a fluffy army out of it if they put their mind to it.


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> I agree but notice that the majority of the moaning is from the powergamer min/max crowd.


Yea and they always bitch and moan about everything.


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

MMMM Come to me my Chirdren of sensual pleasures.

Yep from what I have seen and heard the ranks of Fulgrims followers will soon swell to epic proportions.

As to the moaning: it always happens before the release of a book and goes away after a couple of months. (I seen this every time since 1st Ed.) The only time it did not was the third Ed balls up when we got two Codex Chaos co the first one was rap with a capiltal C.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Seeing the rules for possessed, they not actually that bad. Not looking forward to getting new ones, cos cant use ones I have, cos champ git power fist. Do people reckon I could use them as chosen? They pretty mutated like.


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

They are defintly fancy enough to be used as chosen. 

Use they as you like man. As long as you tell me clearly at the start of a game I have no problem with it.


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

i can't see a good reason why you wouldn't be able to use them, as long as they look mutated and its obvious to your opp what they are meant to be.


----------



## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

its true i see no point in bashing the rules until i get my models on the table and finding out for oneself... but if they do suck oh then its on.


----------



## Red couisars (Sep 2, 2007)

go ahead use um :roll:


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

firewolf said:


> >> Wont knock it much, until i read it, but the whole shape of my army just went tits-up cos I use 8 man, 2 melta weapon infiltrating marine units. Just have to adapt I suppose.


Just use the new Chosen instead, 3 squads of 8-10 chosen with up to FIVE assault weapons (or 4 and a heavy, or 1 heavy/assault and 4 guys with PW, PF, LC, etc), and Infiltrate, should be pretty handy for you.

As to the whining...
Man oh man, I've been on the B&C chaos boards and it's just nothing but bitching. Anyone who tries to find a positive way to go at it is getting assaulted. Even the mods are getting in on the whining and turning a blind eye to the jerks bashing on the people trying to spin it.

Ironically, most of the whining seems to be in the form of unimaginative veterans who're crying about actually being GIVEN options.

The idea of Word Bearers including a unit of berzerkers, for example, is like a slap in the face. I said, "Well, what if you just said they were normal WBs who;re so wrapped up in the frenzy of worship that they become frenzied like berzerkers, but without the association with khorne?" and I got screamed at for making up fluff in order to powergame.

I actually had a mod lay this brain-warping line on me:


> Emperor's Children - How can I play emperor's Children under the new rules? I can't. I can have The Mark of Slaanesh on my Lord. And then Icons of Slaanesh in other groups, and some Noise Marines. I don't get Slaanesh Daemons, but I can get a Slaanesh mount.
> 
> So does that make them Emperor's Children?


How does that NOT make them Emperor's Children?! Hell, the new dex even has a picture of ECs with bolters and says "Not all members of the emperor's children become noise marines..."

Likewise, I hear Khorne players laughing that they can put IoK on Havocs.
Put the fuckers in a rhino and give them meltas and flamers. How is that not Khorne?

The whining is coming from a vocal bunch of unimaginative, stubborn veterans who just simply don't want to use it because it's new.

There's no reason whatsoever why you can't play any of the old legions under the new rules. In fact, they should be excited about the chance to use new units in their old lists. Khorne with Raptors? Hell yeah! Nightlords with Berzerkers? Why the hell not!

All it takes is the ability to accept change and adapt fluff. Except for the 1k sons, all the cult troops have had their legion associations loosened (not all Berzerkers are World Eaters, not all Plague Marines are Deathguard, etc) and anyone can have the icons. And even if you insist that Zerks are WE and Plagueies are DG, they also went and fractured those legions so there are wandering bands of berzerkers, 1k Sons sorcerers with ruberic bodyguards, etc all looking to be brought into a warband, regardless of its affiliation. 

And people have even pointed out fluff from novels that says IW and WB have used cult troops (specifically 'zerks) during battles.

People are only upset with this dex because they WANT to be upset with it.

All it takes is just a shred of creativity.


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

> The whining is coming from a vocal bunch of unimaginative, stubborn veterans who just simply don't want to use it because it's new.


 Every Edition, every Codex this happens ( although with the first CSM Codex in third edition it was valid.) Some people just don't like change.

Im surpirised you havn't found a quote of some poor Alpha Legion Player bemoaning the fate of cultist, I had 120 of the blighters so I feel a certian leeway is allowed if I want to whine.

That said, Im just Getting on with it and making do. What you have said Galahad is pretty much right and I agree with you.

Heres my Upbeat thoughts on the new dex ( I have posted a version of this in Hands on chaos codex.)

This dex heralds a time of the common trooper, with less conversion to do on DPs and such, Im seriously looking at converting each basic guy in the army.

Make your own special characters, take the stats of your favourite SC and make your own model for it. Weird and wonderful options but then 'oh he is Typhus really and the that big chainsaw is his Manreaper.'

I have to be positive, Im not going to throw away 20 odd years of gaming experiance and fond memories just because GW have made it harder to be original with selections from the codex.


So forward my twisted and corrupted companions in Chaos use your imaginations and we will march on to dominion over these pawns of the false emperor. :twisted:


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Viscount Vash said:


> Every Edition, every Codex this happens ( although with the first CSM Codex in third edition it was valid.) Some people just don't like change.


Quoted for sheer ironic troops. Nobody hates change more than chaos, it seems.



> Heres my Upbeat thoughts on the new dex ( I have posted a version of this in Hands on chaos codex.)
> 
> This dex heralds a time of the common trooper, with less conversion to do on DPs and such, Im seriously looking at converting each basic guy in the army.


Sounds fun. Hell, I almost want to start an IW army, just so I can convert some berzerkers as raging combat cyborgs with chainsaw hands. Maybe some teched out noise marines with converted weapons (perhaps use some of my leftover tau bits), some plague marines done up as bloated, lobotomized zombies...maybe even get ambitious, do thousand sons as daemonic androids lead by a squad leader with high tech weaponry, or perhaps some obvious brain implants

There's a guy on B&C who plans to redo his entire army using possessed minis (obviously with some gun arms and such), because he feels THAT is how chaos marines should look.
I applaud him.



> Make your own special characters, take the stats of your favourite SC and make your own model for it. Weird and wonderful options but then 'oh he is Typhus really and the that big chainsaw is his Manreaper.'


Every Blood Angels player knows that one well. "I'm taking Lemartes because for 5 more points than a JP chaplain I get an extra wound, extra leadership, death mask, etc...but Lem has a fucking hideous mini, so we're calling him Father O'Malleus."



> I have to be positive, Im not going to throw away 20 odd years of gaming experiance and fond memories just because GW have made it harder to be original with selections from the codex.


Exactly. The EC player I quoted told me rather than change his list, he;s just going to stop playing them until 5th edition codex rolls around and hope they get it right then. That's pretty damned sad.



> So forward my twisted and corrupted companions in Chaos use your imaginations and we will march on to dominion over these pawns of the false emperor. :twisted:


Don't forget the not-so twisted renegades ;-)


----------



## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

I personally kinda like how you can twist the new fluff since its mainly scattered warbands, i play word bearers and i mean... they worship all 4 gods as a panthenon, why wouldnt each god give them their gifts, such as zerkers, plague marines, niose marines and sorcerers? i mean it actually does make fluff sense, and in a 2000 pnt match, ive got a really cheep lord to go with my chosen or CC orientated marines and imusing my dark apostle model because hes got almost everything he had before, and hes cheeper and better for the points he cost me then in the last dex! and im throwing around 10 lesser daemons, you pop them into play, charge them and hey look theres friggen 30 attacks with marine stats for 13 points/model!


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

> Don't forget the not-so twisted renegades


Their just corrupted. :twisted:


----------



## hephesto (Feb 24, 2007)

Good points here guys, though I do not agree with all the changes I've found the codex to be pretty good. In fact my only real problem is with the disappearance of cultists and variation in daemons. Two sub-armies have effectively been killed off.

Beyond that the use of icon can really help you do a lott of cool things, galahad's Khornate flamer/melta havocs are a good example. Beyond that things look pretty damn good for us chaos boys, especially with all those shiny new kits and bits!

Personally I'm sticking with my Iron Warriors and will be attempting a fluffy army so no icons for me. Though the lure of the chaos spawn was to great...will just have to convert them into cyberspawn :wink:


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Expect to see cultists and daemons getting their own codex printed here soon, so fret not.


----------



## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I think one of the universal truths is that people always complain. There are always those folks who will whine at something. Doesn't matter how cool something is (a subjective assessment of course) there will be those that bemoan it.

Chaos could have jetbikes and daemons with 2d6 attacks, and I guarantee people would complain. :mrgreen: 

Honestly, IMO the best answer is apathy. 8) 
Seriously. The games we play change, and if we want to continue playing it, we need to evolve. Like it or lump it, we could always play Confrontation 

I like some of the changes, dislike some as well (IMO the BA dex could have been way better written), either way, I'm still playing the game, so I'm forced to warm up to the idea of things changing, or take up another hobby. :lol: 

When the daemon codex comes out, I'm certain many of the complaints will be resolved, but I firmly believe that people will find something wrong with it. :roll: 

Meh. 

I think it's kind of a human nature-thing. Not specifically a gamer thing, or even a 40k gamer or even powergamer thing really. People just complain. Every group has em. :roll:


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Threres always something wrong with everything, or so we are led to believe. Imo, its just peeps who cant handle having to change tactics or having to think about army lists. Adapt people, and all will be good. Moaning pricks.(Not peeps on here of course.  )


----------



## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I can be a moaning prick too. Believe me.


----------



## joecool (Sep 11, 2007)

A questions on behalf of a friend. A good friend of mine played a World Eaters army. His army was based on some tricked out possessed (furious charge, mark of khorne, and rending claws) ina land raider and 2 units of bloodletters he could summon from any squad and charge you with daemonic nastiness.

Now that possessed cannot be relied on (since you have to roll to see how good they are) and his bloodletters are reduced to generic lesser demons, what would you suggest he does? He likes his chaos army to be a wild rush down the field as he feels that that is the right way to be khorne-like.


----------



## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Get lots of Berserkers, and Chaos Space Marines with a Mark of Khorne, and charge em across the field of battle in wild abandon!
Maybe even close combat Termies and a Termie Lord w/ Lightning Claws and a symbol of Khorne.

Add a greater daemon (khornate) and maybe lesser daemons.

Skip the vehix, just a horde of axe wielding death!


----------



## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Always fun to do that elch :lol: but yeah, lots of berserkers, they are still really nice, 3 PP a squad with ws 5 and furious charge, possesed with any of the abilities are good, just maybe not particularly for khorne, but they're still very usefull, khorne marked marines are very usefull now as well get the extra attack, 10 strong with the heavy weap, or 2 specials running around the field, power fisted champs, and lesser daemons may not be bloodletters, but they have almost the same stats and the same number attacks, -1 S power weap and 3+armor save, buuuuuut they're half as many points as bloodletters, meaning you may not have brutish daemons anymore, but you can overwhelm them with sheer numbers and overwhelming number of attacks!, as well you can still say they're bloodletters with the axes and all, just same statline as other daemons and greater daemon for 100 points, pretty broken imo even footslogging its a MC with great stats wondering around for 100 points!?


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

yeah beserkers in rhinos[or landraiders] raptors with MOK and termies are all viable options. Berserkers are pretty sweet, the only issue is how to get them into cc quickly


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Don't forget Chosen!

8-10 infiltrating chosen with up to 5 special weapons, (or one and up to four special close combat weapons). Icon of Khorne, a flamer or melta and four sets of lightning claws, or four powerfists, or power weapons if you're cheap, or a mix and match thereof. Pure nasty.

Mounted berzerkers, as mentioned. Marked raptors. Havocs with flamers and meltas and a powerfist champ all crammed into a rhino.

The daemons aren't as great as bloodletters, but they're CHEAP. Buy a couple units of them and throw them at the enemy to soften them up for the zerks


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I never really got why World Eaters couldn't get Raptors. Never really understood it. 

The other advantage of the new deamons is that they don't take up FOC slots. Sure with Apoc that an't huge but for other games it is.


----------



## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

This is the Khorne army i'm building under the new dex:

DP - Khorne, wings,

8 x Beserkers inc champ - fist
Rhino - EA,

8 x Beserkers inc champ - fist
Rhino - EA,

8 x Raptors inc Champ - fist, Khorne,

2 x Spawn,

2 x Spawn,

Defiler - 2x CCW,

Defiler - 2x CCW,

Defiler - 2x CCW,

Choppy, choppy. choppy! Yarrrrr!


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Jacobite said:


> I never really got why World Eaters couldn't get Raptors. Never really understood it.
> 
> The other advantage of the new deamons is that they don't take up FOC slots. Sure with Apoc that an't huge but for other games it is.


Old restrictions said cult armies could only field units that can bear their mark. Raptors were originally their own little group, not beholden to any god, hired mercs for the other armies. Like Obliterators.

Now they're just jump troops. Which I like better.
And now there's nothing that says culties can't take unmarked units. Which I also liked.

As to new daemons, the rules for them are a lot better too. No more instability, no more scatter. The icon is a teleport homer and the daemons are fearless. Rock it.


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Strange thing is that the army which fluffwise would make use of the Raptors the most is the Night Lords - which orginally were affiliated with Khorne - little bit of random infomation I picked up somewhere.


----------



## lt_sparky (Aug 26, 2007)

What is the story with the whole demon codex coming out next year and what does it do to chaos any ideas?


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

All just rumours at the moment but heresay would have us believe that the daemon codex will be out early next year and would give rules for using daemonic legions or allies for csm similar to witchhunters etc.... All just random rumour though as all gw have said is that there will be a codex.


----------



## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

World Eaters are probably too crazy to work a jump pack properly.

My legion of the undead has now reached almost 4500 points, Nurgle shall rise again! 

I even spent a fortune on that Greater Demon of Nurgle from FW. Lord Botchulaz will lead my army, I liked his style from Ragner's Claw.

What really gets me going is the sheer variety of the new dex'. Before, I had one list for my Nurgle hordes. Now, I have six. One for each army I'm likely to face at good old GW Orland Square. I have one for Chaos, weedy beakies, weedy fish eads', weedy tin eads', weedy bugz, and weedy pointy ead's.

AKA Chaos, SM, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and Pointy Headed Eldar.

-Dirge


----------

