# Abaddon / Kharn /Ahriman / Lucius



## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

I hate to start a vs thread but as I read Talon of Horus I started thinking of these during heresy era as well as 40 k era. I don't play the game but am fairly well versed on the fluff of 40 and intimate with the heresy books. How do you think these guys were fair against each other during the heresy as opposed to 40 k? Its easy to say Abaddon would crush any of them but how would a fight go between any pairing? Would Ahrimans sorcery stand a chance? Would Lucius best Kharn or vice versa? Do they work together in 40 k?

In Heresy, I put abaddon 4th in this lineup in martial prowess but 1st on 40k. How close or far is the separation between them or is it situational. Just random musings I had but I would love to hear discussion.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I stopped reading the Heresy novels a while back, but I'll have a go at this. 

Lucius is a master swordsman, but his duel with Loken makes it apparent that he fares less then favourably in a more open brawl. In that regard I put him as losing to Kharn. 

Abaddon likewise is a formiddable warrior. Also a Luna wolf, so like Loken less bound by duelist etiquette. I'd probably put him above Lucius at this time as well. But against Kharn, I'm not so sure. The same resourcefulness that defeats Lucius' finesse could also outfight Kharn's ferocity. But I wouldn't put a bet on that one. 

As for Ahriman, given what we know him to be capable of as a psyker, I'd put him above all of these guys at this point. Given that this happens before any blessings of the Blood God, even Kharn would probably be put down before he could do much. 


That's my take.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Even during the Heresy I would put Abaddon above Lucius and Khârn. 

Ahriman is a bit of a wild card given his psychic prowess and may well have managed to defeat all of them.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

The one I'd love to see against any of these during the heresy is Sigismund.

Kharn vs Sigismund or Abaddon vs Sigismund = I would pay money to watch that fight.

Really hope that Sigismund is the one who "kills" Kharn at Terra before Khorne rezzes him when the World Eaters retreat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Abaddon vs Sigismund = I would pay money to watch that fight.


Spoiler for _Talon of Horus_:



Well, we know that is going to happen post-Heresy. :wink:


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for the input. I think Ahriman wins out during heresy...especially how we have seen pyskers perform. Yseugi comes to mind. 40k is where I am really a novice at this point.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Spoiler for _Talon of Horus_:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we know that is going to happen post-Heresy. :wink:


Oh wow, cannot wait to read that book now 

Thanks for the info COTE


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> I stopped reading the Heresy novels a while back, but I'll have a go at this.
> 
> Lucius is a master swordsman, but his duel with Loken makes it apparent that he fares less then favourably in a more open brawl. In that regard I put him as losing to Kharn.


And yet, later, Lucius would pretty much wipe the floor with Loken as I read it. He might have lost the once (which considering that Lucius went in expecting a sword-fight, and Loken "cheated" - which was a valuable lesson. In a situation outside of a training ring, I wouldn't expect he'd be so easily defeated, which along with the oversaturation of how much of an obnoxious cunt Lucius is portrayed as, is simply an easy device for which you can get attached to Loken (playing to the heart strings of upper versus lower class socialism etc - I've read a book on character/author psychology recently).

A Boxer turning up to a World Championship fight and then going up against an MMA fighter where the MMA fighter can use his rules is not going to prove the better fighter. A Goldfish measured by its ability to climb a tree and all that.

Kharn we have yet to really see fight - he's not exactly fought against a "quality" opponent yet from what I can recall. He was hardly the most brutal or best fighter/commander in the World Eaters. He held the title of equerry, and captain of the 8th company, rather than First Captain, like Raldoron, Abaddon, or Sigismund. He's not even noted as being all that capable outside of his position as equerry. He could take a beating, of course (After De'shea? I think where he survived a battering by an enraged Primarch), but there's little in the text which states he is that powerful. The World Eaters and Warhounds before them were noted as putting rank etc as little worth, but it's ridiculous to think that the Legion would not make note of their most capable legionary.

It doesn't need to be ostentatious, and he's clearly capable - he's a Company Commander in the Heresy of one of the most brutal chapters, but if you compare his descriptions and attention paid of him, compared to other notable characters of rank and capabilities, there's little which marks him out as being all that special (outside of toughing it out with angryron). A Legion which represents strength and has advancement by ritual combat is of course going to mark him out as capable, do not get me wrong, BUT he hasn't been recognised as the greatest in the legion - and so far, there's little other attention paid to the other notables in the Warhounds/World Eaters.

For example, some legions have capable commanders, but also have other capable soldiers who are noted as being the best at what they do, often heading bodyguards should they not be the First Captain - Raldoran and Azkaellon (Blood Angels), or Lamiad and Gage (Ultras), Eidolon and Lucius (Emperor's Children), Corswain and Luther (Dark Angels).



> Abaddon likewise is a formiddable warrior. Also a Luna wolf, so like Loken less bound by duelist etiquette. I'd probably put him above Lucius at this time as well. But against Kharn, I'm not so sure. The same resourcefulness that defeats Lucius' finesse could also outfight Kharn's ferocity. But I wouldn't put a bet on that one.


I'd hazard that Abaddon is the most capable, by virtue of his Terminator Armour. Obviously the rules pay little attention to the fluff, and vice versa, but that "Invulnerable Save" (artificered terminator armour engineered for him personally) is going to make him tougher. Maybe slower, but he could take the battering.

Outside of armour, possibly, but that's pretty much never going to happen.



> As for Ahriman, given what we know him to be capable of as a psyker, I'd put him above all of these guys at this point. Given that this happens before any blessings of the Blood God, even Kharn would probably be put down before he could do much.
> 
> 
> That's my take.


Ahriman was obviously a master of psychic powers, and could probably make use of the explosive battle powers of the Pyrae or whatever should the need take him, but he's going to make more use of the Divination powers - which might make him better in a duel - but considering that the Philosophy of the Thousand Sons is less on might, and despite leading the Sekhmet, Ahzek Ahriman is possibly less combatant focused than someone like those other focused characters.

My take is Abaddon>Lucius>Ahriman>Kharn, personally. That's obviously not saying much, as that's like saying Messi is greater than Pele is greater than Maradona is greater than Ronaldinho, or that Ali is better than Tyson, or the like.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Yeah, Lucius learned a valuable lesson against Loken, one he takes with him into the later books. Personally even Heresy era I think Abbadon has them. Armour, skill, strength, self belief and a force of will and ferocity that the others just don't have in equal amounts.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Kharn we have yet to really see fight - he's not exactly fought against a "quality" opponent yet


He faces Orfeo in _Betrayer_. Though Kharn doesn't defeat him, he manages to hold his own for a while.

Orfeo also mentions that Kharn has a reputation as a warrior known amongst the Legions, too.

Argel Tal also, when talking about Kharn and his own sub-fighting in the World Eaters' arena, mentions that while their fighting may be poor in the arena, Kharn's name is "is known throughout the Legions." Keep in mind the context of the conversation is about fighting prowess.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

hailene said:


> He faces Orfeo in _Betrayer_. Though Kharn doesn't defeat him, he manages to hold his own for a while.
> 
> Orfeo also mentions that Kharn has a reputation as a warrior known amongst the Legions, too.
> 
> Argel Tal also, when talking about Kharn and his own sub-fighting in the World Eaters' arena, mentions that while their fighting may be poor in the arena, Kharn's name is "is known throughout the Legions." Keep in mind the context of the conversation is about fighting prowess.


 
Sigismund and Kharn duel in the First Templar and Kharn cannot beat him. He does indicate though that it might be different in a different situation..


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Been a while since I read Betrayer, I'll have another look through it, cheers! Suppose it would have made sense to look through that, though haha.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

theurge33 said:


> Sigismund and Kharn duel in the First Templar and Kharn cannot beat him. He does indicate though that it might be different in a different situation..


I think Kharn mentions it himself in one of the books that he was never a great duelist, and only really came into his own in the heat of battle. Besides, I think Sevatar is the only one that came close against Sigismund, and that ended in a stalemate after 13 hours, or something like that.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

hailene said:


> He faces Orfeo in _Betrayer_. Though Kharn doesn't defeat him, he manages to hold his own for a while.
> 
> Orfeo also mentions that Kharn has a reputation as a warrior known amongst the Legions, too.
> 
> Argel Tal also, when talking about Kharn and his own sub-fighting in the World Eaters' arena, mentions that while their fighting may be poor in the arena, Kharn's name is "is known throughout the Legions." Keep in mind the context of the conversation is about fighting prowess.


Kharn efffortlessly DESTROYED Erebus a guy who was able to last 15 minutes against Lucius in the world eater arena.

Lucius has lost against almost every legit fighter he has faced at least once.

Lost the first time to loken 

Lost against his friend Saul Tarvitz

Beaten by Nykona Sharrowkyn

The best of the best acclaimed by most every legion are Kharn Sigismund Argel Tal Sevatar and Amit,

Lucius is a strong gate keeper.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Nykona Sharrowkyn beats them all. 

But in all seriousness, Abaddon is mentioned as one of the top guys in the one Dark Angels short story, but Little Horus recalls him getting his ass handed to him quite handily by some Ultramarines Captain. But then he has a pretty decent showing in _Vengeful Spirit_, so it's hard to gauge where he stands.

Lucius gets hyped up a lot, but most of the noteworthy fighters he encounters end up beating him or getting the best of him. He has honestly been extremely disappointing so far, in his portrayals.

With regards to Kharn, it's interesting. After what happened with Erebus and Argel Tal, people remark that Kharn has become a totally different beast. Much more deadly than he was before. And even before then he was already well known amongst the legions as a dangerous combatant.

So out of those 3, I am inclined to back the World Eater.

Where it gets interesting is with Ahriman. The Thousand Sons were known as the scholars amongst the Legions, but that does not mean they couldn't dish it out in a straight fight. I don't know where some people seem to be getting this idea. We have an example in _Prospero Burns_ of a Son taking a Wolf on in melee and getting the best of him, before the Wolf receives assistance. We also have guys like Khayon shown to be able to hold their own against World Eaters when dueling them. 

And in _Ahriman: Exile_, we see how useful precog in fact is, when a weak Ahriman who hadn't used his powers in possibly centuries easily slaughtered multiple renegade marines at once, through a combination of his precog and combat prowess. But then, if he has any kind of warp abilities similar to Khayon (and Khayon seems to imply that Ahriman was his superior) it won't matter. If he cuts loose with psyker powers, the other 3 are fucked.


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