# Let's build the most competitive CSM build (1x FOC, only CSM, perhaps CD Allies))



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Good morning all,

The new codex brought a lot of both joy an confusion to many. This thread is not just about numbers and building a list, but it's also about debate on which units are the most competitive, their synergy (major issue for me so far, lots of great units on their own, tricky to have them synergize though).

Let's start on the 1500 field to make a basis, and then raise it up to 1750 and 2000.

First off, the HQ.

Prime Choices for that are either a killy Khorne Lord with Axe (either on a bike to be escorted by bikers, or on a Juggernaut to be escorted by Spawn), or a Nurgle Lord on a bike (to be escorted by bikers), either with Fistclaws or The Burning Brand and a Power Fist (being T6 means usually he will live to attack with his fist).

The Khorne Lord is sheer killyness, no matter his escort. 4 unmarked Spawn will keep a bit fluffiness (8/2=4, a number related to Khorne's Sacred Number, and the spawn can be modelled as warhounds accompanying a lord on a Juggernaut) and are cheaper than 8 Bikers. A Biker Lord + Spawn is not advisable, as he can be focus fired (he still gets LOS, but still, not worth the risk).

The most competitive Lords being Khorne and Nurgle, makes our second HQ choice sort of limited.

Daemon Princes, although hell choppy, lack Eternal Warrior and are hell expensive.

Sorcerers are nice. I have found the use of a Slaanesh Sorcerer along with Noise Marines, but all other uses I have thought of are midfield support roles (eg. camping him with a blob of cultists or a Plague Marine unit in the midfield, casting Nurgle or Tzeentch powers).

So, the second HQ slot is to be discussed.

The Troops? Hell of confusion!

The units standing out are Cultists and Plague Marines (if the Lord is a Nurgle one). 1 or 2 10-man Cultist squads in Reserve sounds good. One or two small Plague Marine squads for midfield Objectives are nice as well. Am I missing something? I've failed to find any Troop configurations that are cost effective for aggressive capturing. Are there other competitive options?

All three Fast Attack options are a no-brainer. 2 Baleflamer Heldrakes, and either a unit of Bikes or Spawn to escort the Lord (depending on his Mark and either Steed or Bike).

The Heavy Support options are a bit confusiong as well though. Havocs with flakk missles are expensive for simple Marines that die like marines. 4 Autocannon Havocs are cheap, but can't threaten any AV14, and in my opinion, they are overkill against a transport. Nurgle Obliterators are not too expensive compared to last codex, but lack anti-air. Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, even taking 3 still is lack of anti-air, while presenting too few armoured threats to the enemy-they will be swiftly destroyed.

Regarding Allies, I am thinking about Tzeentch Daemons a lot, but they are too expensive, and they can be quite competitive on their own, rather as allies.

A solid choice in my opinion are Plaguebearers. Hard to kill, can deep strike on forward objectives and not let go easily. I was thinking about 7-man squads, 1 in each wave.

The Masque is an option to be discussed. She is not an IC indeed, but she has a 3++, making her not-so-easy to kill by shooting, can be deployed in the midfield and line up enemy troops for baleblaming, or bring enemy special weapons to the front line in order to get shot. The moment she helps neutralize 1-2 Power Klaws and render those units practically useless, she has made her points back.

So, your opinions?


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## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

well i reckon typhus is a good choice for plage zombies and sorcs really stand out 2 level 3 in whatever squads forge and maulers are pretty good as are hell drakes thats what i would go with


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

AngelofHope said:


> Regarding Allies, I am thinking about Tzeentch Daemons a lot, but they are too expensive, and they can be quite competitive on their own, rather as allies.
> 
> A solid choice in my opinion are Plaguebearers. Hard to kill, can deep strike on forward objectives and not let go easily. I was thinking about 7-man squads, 1 in each wave.
> 
> The Masque is an option to be discussed. She is not an IC indeed, but she has a 3++, making her not-so-easy to kill by shooting, can be deployed in the midfield and line up enemy troops for baleblaming, or bring enemy special weapons to the front line in order to get shot. The moment she helps neutralize 1-2 Power Klaws and render those units practically useless, she has made her points back.


The problem with the Masque is that she's not an IC, so she can't join a squad--she's a loner who will be boltered to death by a combat squad of space marines (let's crunch this: 10 shots, ~6.6 hits, ~4.4 wounds, ~1.45 wounds--okay, there's about a 45% chance they'll inflict 2 wounds. Still, an easy kill). Plus her being able to fire Pavane 3 times but only at one target who can only be moved once just means that she gets to fire again at the same unit if she misses...twice, if need be. I'd say get a selection with more wounds and combat killiness: a Slaaneshi Herald w/ Pavane in 5 Daemonettes, for only 40 more points, if you're going that route. You can also try a flying DP of Slaanesh w/ Pavane, for 180, if you like.

Screamers and Flamers are nice. Bloodthirster is expensive, but dead killy, if you want Plaguebearers as an objective camper instead of fragile Slaaneshi Daemonettes Pavane-ing (and to fill your obligatory HQ+Troops for allies).

+

The rest of the list:

The choice between Nurgle or Khorne Lord is quite important. The Khorne Lord is a squad-killer, but the Nurgle Lord (and his retinue biker squad, importantly) has the edge in survivability. More importantly, though, the Khorne Lord only lets Berzerkers be troops, while the Nurgle Lord gives us those still drool-worthy Plague Marines as troops. I think we're going to have to go with a Nurgle Lord here, folks.

I'd say bikes over spawn for the bikers' special weapons. Throw on a flamer and a melta, perhaps, plus a combi-melta on the champ and meltabombs on the champ and lord, and the BBoS on the Lord, and you have a durable, fast, anti-horde and anti-armor squad. A bit pricy, but for so much damned killiness, I think it's quite worth it.

The DP/Wings/tBM is a nasty combo, but I don't know if it's competitive. If we want 2 Heldrakes, a CD: Bloodthirster and winged Pavane Prince, we might as well go for FMC saturation, though.

Haven't playtested Sorcs yet, so can't vouch along those lines yet.

Something to consider for Heavy Support: 2 squads of Havocs (say, 1 with lascannons and 1 with autocannons or 2 AC, 2 ML) w/ MoT, both on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 3++ woo! I don't think we'll need much anti-air with 2 Heldrakes plus who knows how many FMCs swooping around.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> Plus her being able to fire Pavane 3 times but only at one target who can only be moved once just means that she gets to fire again at the same unit if she misses...twice, if need be.


Quick nitpick on this, but the masque is able to target 3 seperate squads with her pavene in a single shooting phase. Rest of your points are spot on :victory:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

You know what the best thing about the Chaos Dex is? There is no single build. Vanilla CSM, Plaguies and Noises, Cultists and Zombies are all viable scoring units. Terminators and Chosen are viable Elites. Bikes, Spawn, Raptors, Drakes all viable FA. Havocs, Oblits, Fiends and Vindicators are decent HS. Lords and Sorcs and a couple of special characters are viable, even a DP depending on loadout.

The thing about a good list isn't which choice you make, but what tools you include. Provided you have some speed, some resilience, some anti-AV and some melee threat it doesn't matter what specific unit you take.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Well, here are my thoughts on the units you seem to have dismissed.

HQ:
While a lord on steed (with wheels or not) is awesome at killing things a chaos sorceror is excellent at playing the midfield control role. I have had quite some succes with a naked lvl 3 sorceror joining a standard CSM squad in a rhino. The key to using him is to forget all about marks, and just use the 110 points of value he is. 
Where he seems to be best is if you make him your warlord (since he isn't the "get stuck in" type of character) and to take all his spells from the Telepathy lore. At least I found all the spells to be somewhere between cool utility and backbreaking tactical advantage. The lore really helps out your troops and the only awful spell (the one which makes things cause fear) can always be replaced by the quite useful signature.

I have also tried using a lvl 3 in termie armour with biomancy, joining a termie unit but only with moderate succes. I have to test him out still as he always seem to be incredibly unlucky. The only game where he didn't turn up waaayy too late (turn 4 or 5 seems to be his favourite time) him and his unit always died to their own awful dice rolls. I won't count him out just yet, but so far he has only been amazing once.

Troops:
I think you are severely underestimating the bog standard CSM. For 13 points with bolters, 2 special weapons (any choice) and in a rhino you get some amazing utility. The are, after all, still marines, but because you can have them for cheap, they can cause all kinds of trouble by showing up in large numbers. 4 units of these only costs you about 770 points (depending on loadout of course) and there really are few things these guys can't handle.

Secondly, Noise marines: When giving the champs a Doom Siren and a power sword/maul and the whole unit extra CCW these guys are a pretty mean and cheap scoring unit (at least they should be) who specialises in putting marines out of their misery. Give them Icon of Excess and these dudes are also pretty tough. Because in case noone noticed, Initiative 5 is pretty sweet.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> Quick nitpick on this, but the masque is able to target 3 seperate squads with her pavene in a single shooting phase. Rest of your points are spot on :victory:


Looked again; wait, you're right. She does have the Tzeentchi "We Are Legion" power after all. Hmmm, that makes her much more worthwhile, for a single-turn defanging of much of the enemy battle line (before she gets splattered).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> The thing about a good list isn't which choice you make, but what tools you include. Provided you have some speed, some resilience, some anti-AV and some melee threat it doesn't matter what specific unit you take.


However, in almost all Codices there is a standout unit for all categories, which is simply a better choice than the alternatives (9 times out of 10 you'll want an Assault Terminator squad over a Vanguard Squad, for example, or Terminators over Legion of the Damned. They're just more efficient at what they do).

3x5 Havocs with Mark of Nurgle and 4 Autocannons is *the* Heavy Support to go to, I think. They're simply rude against anything without AV13, knocking off unreal amounts of hull points and being difficult to deal with. Heldrakes with Baleflamers are the Fast Attack choice of preference. I imagine Slaanesh Sorcerors and Lords with Burning Brand are going to be the emergent HQs for Chaos. Cultists with Fearless or CSM as Troops and boom, army done.

Daemons is easy. Still a Tzeentch Chariot HQ and a unit of Plaguebearers and a squad of Horrors with the Changeling as Troops. Add as many Flamers and Screamers as you physically can. Flamers are disgusting as a ranged threat and melee - anyone wanting to charge a Flamer unit takes 9D3 hits that kill on 4+ unless you have an invulnerable or multiple wounds. Softening them up's a bitch, with 2 T4 wounds and a 5++ apiece. They're just nasty.

Midnight


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

@Mossy: Exactly what I was meaning, having WAL means she can deepstrike in (even right in the face of the enemy), Pavane the juicy models to the front, and shoot the crap out of them. It's worth the extra 50pts compared to a basic Herald in my opinion (or the 20 extra points compared to an upgraded herald).

@MidnightSun: What about AV13-14 though? (and anti-flier as well). We got individual solutions to each category, but how will they be combined in a tournament list?

@AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH: I guess an unmarked Sorcerer might do the trick, being cheaper than a marked one, indeed. As for the "vanilla" CSM, I feel that they need to be upgraded in order to fulfil various roles, in which case their points difference is small compared to the cult troops.

For example:
10 CSM, Icon of Vengeance, 1 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Combi-plasma (I like to have versatility in the weapons of my troops, to be able to deal with a variety of enemies in a tournament environment): 190

7 Plague Marines, same weapons: 193pts

They got a 3 points difference, and still, the Plague Marines can't have their Fearless sniped, they got Poisoned weapons, got T5 (the VSM squad would need to pay 30 more points for that), and FnP. Also, they don't need to be 10 for 2 special weapons, and got Blight Grenades as well. Their only downside compared to regular CSM is lower Initiative, but well, they are so much more survivable that they make up for it.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

On the sorceror, why do you even want the mark in the first place? The Tzeentch and Nurgle Lores are pretty lackluster and even the Slaaneshi one aren't that much better? So it's not so much (to me at least) about saving points (although that is nice) as it is the CSM lores are very meh.

At the same time, the sorceror makes the vanilla CSM much, much better. And, if I may be honest, your CSM loadout makes me think you don't quite understand what makes them awesome. Again, they should be bareboned. Like this:

10 CSM, 2 Melta/Flamer/Plasma (I, unlike you, like them specialised. But I also take more dudes for redundancy), Rhino: 195

Forget Icons, forget the champion, take only what's needed (and I really think you need the transport) and drown the opponent in bodies. Marine bodies. The sorceror(s) acts as a force multiplier to the CSM and helping them deal with troublesome enemies. 

Also, due note that I am in no way dismissing Plague marines. I am merely pointing out the usefulness of the standard CSM. Another useful feature is that you can include 2 sorcerors, maing them even better. Whereas cult troops demands a marked lord if you want them to be scoring (and you really, really want that).


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

So, to summarize so far:

HQ
Nurgle Biker Lord (unlocks Plague Marines, is more durable then Khorne Lords)
Sorcerer (Unmarked)

TROOPS
Cultists
Plague Marines

FAST ATTACK
2x Heldrakes, Baleflamer
Nurgle Bikers
(would also add Nurgle Spawn, but since 2/3 of F.A. are taken by "Double Dragon", and the last remaining choice is Bikers to escort the Lord, I leave them for Tally lists, or different setups).

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x5 Havocs, 4x Autocannons


Before moving on to Allies, I will address a few issues I would like us to discuss:

1. What about Anti-AV14s? (Even with Daemon Allies, I don't know if a Screamer unit can solve the problem)

2. Purchasing a Defense line with a Quad Gun and Heldrake Vector Strikes will be adequate anti-air protection? I feel we might need more than that, but that can be done either by sacrificing the precious Baleflamers, or kitting 1 of the 3 Havoc Squads with Skyfire Missle Launchers.

3. Regarding Troops, for sure putting 1 or 2 10-man Cultist squads in reserves is a fine backfield scoring strategy, for sure a Plaguemarine squad is good midfield work, but what about forward objectives? How would you manage/kit out your Troops, keeping them cheap enough so the rest of the codex goodies are afffordable?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

AngelofHope said:


> HQ
> Nurgle Biker Lord (unlocks Plague Marines, is more durable then Khorne Lords)
> Sorcerer (Unmarked)


Sorceror isn't helping this list. Nurgle Lord should be on Penguin or on Foot with Burning Brand of Skalathrax, and then stuck in a Plague Marine unit.



AngelofHope said:


> TROOPS
> Cultists
> Plague Marines


3x7 Plague Marines in Rhinos with 4 Meltaguns/2 Plasma Guns (if that's legal, dunno the new Chaos book too well) and 10 Cultists to sit on an objective. 4 Scoring Units is more than adequate.



AngelofHope said:


> FAST ATTACK
> 2x Heldrakes, Baleflamer


Solid, combined with Burning Brand this list is starting to seriously beat up shitty CSM spam lists and scouring the board of any disembarked MEQs.



AngelofHope said:


> Nurgle Bikers
> (would also add Nurgle Spawn, but since 2/3 of F.A. are taken by "Double Dragon", and the last remaining choice is Bikers to escort the Lord, I leave them for Tally lists, or different setups).


Drop completely due to lack of Bike Lord.



AngelofHope said:


> HEAVY SUPPORT
> 3x5 Havocs, 4x Autocannons


Good.



AngelofHope said:


> 1. What about Anti-AV14s? (Even with Daemon Allies, I don't know if a Screamer unit can solve the problem)


9 Flamers is more than up to the problem. Sure, you have no chance of penetrating, but a full unit of Flamers removes 4.5 Hull Points per turn with a 19.9" threat range.



AngelofHope said:


> 2. Purchasing a Defense line with a Quad Gun and Heldrake Vector Strikes will be adequate anti-air protection? I feel we might need more than that, but that can be done either by sacrificing the precious Baleflamers, or kitting 1 of the 3 Havoc Squads with Skyfire Missle Launchers.


A Defence Line is a good idea for Cultists protection, but Havocs with Autocannons fill the sky with bullets to knock off the odd hull point before S7 Vector Strikes go ahead. Struggling against Vendettae, but at least once the Heldrakes are down the Vendettae become a much lesser threat, having a low rate of fire.



AngelofHope said:


> 3. Regarding Troops, for sure putting 1 or 2 10-man Cultist squads in reserves is a fine backfield scoring strategy, for sure a Plaguemarine squad is good midfield work, but what about forward objectives? How would you manage/kit out your Troops, keeping them cheap enough so the rest of the codex goodies are afffordable?


3x7 Plague Marines (all in Rhinos if you have points, Meltaguns in Rhinos and Plasmas on foot if not) for midfield and the one with Lord to contest very distant objectives, 10 Cultists in a Defence Line backfield. Objectives in the enemy deployment zone are cleared by Heldrakes, but they don't need to be taken - if you clear the enemy from their objectives and claim 2 or 3, you're still winning by 2 or 3. Claiming all objectives is needless and overkill and spreads your forces too thin.

Daemon Allies provide anti-tank for a reasonable cost. Flamers beat just about anything, with 9 templates killing hordes decently and 9 '4+ to glance' rolls is horrendous against vehicles, whilst also being rather tough with T4 and 2 wounds with a 5++, and Jump Infantry movement. Screamers likewise - kill vehicles nastily, along with Monstrous Creatures. The Daemons don't need to kill infantry that well, as that's done adequately by the Heldrakes/Lord/Havocs/Plagues.

Midnight


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Can you tell us why you prefer a steed/on foot lord instead of a biker lord, and compare the two? In my calculations, a mobile T6 unit that can put some good hurt in med-short range fire, or be fast enough to avoid assaults and flame from afar would be more favorable to a footslogging unit.

Moreover, indeed, Daemons would add to such a list. They seem to fill gaps this codex presents.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

A Nurgle Lord on Bike with Nurgle Biker bodyguards is a very expensive Heldrake with 3 twin-linked bolters, less raw speed, less punch and less survivability. They're tough, yeah, but no more so than Thunderwolves, and they require a rather large investment of points to make them scary (like Thunderwolves, but less so).

Spending the points on Plague Marines (equally tough) or Flamers (a staggering offensive output and equally fast) seems to be the much better option.

Midnight


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Indeed, points-wise it seems more eficient, but isn't it also efficient to run a biker lord with T6 spawn in that sense? What would also be a slogger lord's (and PM retinue) tactics? Can you give an example on the gearing/numbers on the squad?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Lord with Mark of Nurgle and Burning Brand of Skalathrax, with a unit of 7 to 9 Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns in a Rhino (I only assume that you can still take 2 specials per 10, I don't know the spec in the new Codex). They roll up, get out, and reliably cripple a Tactical Squad in one phase (a Torrent AP3 template and 2 Plasma Guns in Rapid-Fire do a lot of damage). You can fire the Brand and a Plasma out of the top hatch of the Rhino to mop up a distinctly unthreatening squad if you so wish.

It's more versatility and firepower than the Bike unit whilst retaining their survivability (more bodies and FnP in place of 1 point of Toughness).

Midnight


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

But having only 1 Rhino (or even 2) means it/they will be blasted apart in turn 1, since all the enemy A-T fire will focus on them :/ If the enemy gets to play first, there will most probably be no Rhino to roll up, I fear 

PS: Yes, you can have 2 special weapons even in the basic 5-man PM squad.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

*Bikes*

I did some math-hammering the other day and surprisingly Slaanesh bikers with FNP are more resilient than Nurgle bikers in most cases. The breakdown is as follows:

Against S3 and below (any AP): Slaanesh 
Against S4 (any AP): Nurgle but only by a little
Against S5 (any AP): Tie
Against S6 and above (any AP): Slaanesh

So really Slaanesh is the way to go for the bikes if you want resiliency and combat potential (I5 helps) *unless* you want to unlock Plague Marines as troops.

So for bikers:

Maximum combat damage output: Khorne bikers
Maximum survivability with decent output: Slaanesh bikers
Medium survivability with decent output but Plague Marines: Nurgle bikers (and Lord)


*Daemon Allies*

Chaos Daemons are pretty weak comparatively to CSM for anti-tank capabilities. They keep getting mentioned as anti-armor support for the CSM but Daemons specialize in anti-infantry, in my opinion, so that's how I would use them if I had to have them. You don't really need to, however, because CSM are just as good at anti-infantry (see Baleflamers, Burning Brands, mass Bolter/Autocannon capabilities,etc). I really don't see Chaos Daemons as necessary for CSM to be _most_ effective. They really just take away points from the main army.


*The Most Competitive Build*

I honestly think that 100 CSMs would be the most competitive. It's only 1350 for, let me say that again, *One-hundred Space Marines!!!*. You can't stop that in 6 turns. I don't care how much ordinance you've got. Now, obviously this would take a bit of fine tuning because you need to fit in your anti-armor and anti-air arsenal but you've got the anti-infantry covered with the ridiculous amount of bolter fire. 

I would use Huron as one of the HQs to give D3 units Infiltrate. Which means up to 60 Marines at 18'' away. Then I would take a Lvl 3 Sorceror and roll on Pyromancy and hope for Fire Shield (50% chance)(which grants a 4+ cover save against most shooting attacks) to further increase survivability. If you don't get Fire Shield then attach the Sorceror onto a squad that could benefit from his assault based psychic powers.

So if you get 3 units to Infiltrate you're gold but that's not always going to be a guarantee so you need a guarantee unit or two to get across the board. I would go with one or two units of bikes with Melta guns most likely. And probably a Heldrake to help with anti-air. I might actually go one squad of bikes and two Heldrakes for the anti-air issue. They would probably even benefit from the Hades in this case because you really don't need any more anti-infantry and the Hades Autocannon can at least fire at Flyers.

I would bring an Aegis and drop one to 10 men instead of 20 to sit behind and fire the Quad Gun. 

So let me see if I can make a list out of this:

Huron (160)
Sorceror (110) rolls on Pyromancy

15x CSM w/ 2x Flamers (215)
15x CSM w/ 2x Melta Gun (225)
15x CSM w/ 2x Plasma Gun (235)
15x CSM w/ 2x Plasma Gun (235)
10x CSM w/ Lascannon, Flamer (165)

Heldrake w/ Hades (170)
Heldrake w/ Hades (170)

6x Bikes w/ Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2x Melta Guns, Power Sword

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun (100)

Total: 1997


So this is my optimized version of the idea. It still looks to me like it needs fine-tuning but there it is. It's only got 78 MEQs unfortunately, although that's nothing to laugh at. But I still think that an army with 100 MEQs would wash over pretty much anything. So another idea would be.

Huron (160)

15x Marines w/ 2x Melta Guns (225)
15x Marines w/ 2x Melta Guns (225)
15x Marines w/ 2x Melta Guns (225)
15x CSM w/ 2x Plasma Gun (235)
15x CSM w/ 2x Plasma Gun (235)
15x CSM w/ 2x Plasma Gun (235)

Heldrake w/ Hades (170)
Heldrake w/ Hades (170)
Heldrake w/ Hades (170)


Not a lot of tactical flexibility, but it's just so many Marines. Anyways just an idea. Kind of hard to test though, because it looks boring as all hell to play. 

P.S. I do think that you're limiting your effectiveness by limiting yourself to no allies or only Daemon allies. For example, what do the CSMs really lack? Anti-air? Then bring Guard Allies. No synergy? Then bring Necrons. Etc.


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## tinytim84 (Mar 5, 2010)

I would have to say oblitorators are a better option than havocs for there pts. Yes there more expensive but they are also much more versatile. They can take on AV14, terminators, Large blob units, Mid and long range targets. About the only thing they struggle with is flyers.


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## KahRyez (Sep 7, 2010)

The issue with oblitorators is they have to change weapons every turn, making them slightly unreliable if needed in a pinch, sure you could have two sets of them swapping fire each turn, but they would still have to be much closer to the fight than the havocs would be.

Also the havocs are dirt cheap compared to the Oblitorators.


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