# Unorthodox Tau Doctrine



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi everyone, I just joined the forums today. I was hoping to get some feedback on my fluff. Pretty much it tells how Tau forces became tainted with Chaos and broke away from the greater good. I recently changed my Tau army to this "Chaos Tau" army. 

Commander Y’Miurnum (Swift Strike)


Coming from the Tau World of Vior’la known for its harsh training in the Fire Warrior programs. Commander Y’Miurmun quickly rose through the ranks due to his vast courage and fierce fighting style. He was chosen by the Ethereals to attend further training under Commander Puretide. Training along such heroes as Shadowsun and Farsight he learned the secrets of battle. He refused to take on a Battle Suit thinking that they are too big and get in the way. Preferring to fight along side his troops on foot, he gains the hearts of the troops under his command.

He was first called into battle to defend the Tau world of Vor’la from the Imperium. He was given command of a Tank Hunter Cadre and a large number of ground troops. As was custom, several Ethereals were sent along to oversee operations and report back on their progress. The Damascus Crusade was a brutal and long battle on Vor’la as Swift Strike stopped the Imperial Guards advance into the Tau Empire.

The fighting continued on Vor’la for several months with neither side gaining a foot hold. One night that the Ethereals were having their meetings to send back their progress report. The council requested additional forces be sent to turn the time of battle. The meeting was wrapping up when an artillery round struck the compound and killed the Ethereals. The Cadre was in panic and looked to Y’Miurnum for leadership and guidance. 

The Imperial Guard knew that the Tau forces were weak and made a push against the line. They broke through and gained the upper hand, Tau forces withdrew to a final line of defense. Sensing that Swift Strike was weak from a shrapnel wound, Khorne with his silver tongue talked to him and struck a bargain with him. He agreed to serve him and in return he was given powers of Chaos and aided with daemons sent though the warp. They were able to repel the Imperial Forces off the planet. Swift Strike and his Cadre turned to chaos and broke away from the Tau Empire. 

When the Tau reinforcements that the Ethereals had requested finally arrived, they walked into a trap. Iron Fist welcomed them onto the planet where they were slaughtered by their once friendly friends. Iron Fist now wishes to destroy the Imperium of Man for the death of his Ethereal Leaders. He wages his own war driving deeper into Imperial Space with rage and the thirst for revenge . 

Any thoughts, questions, smart remanks, or critisism is welcome.


----------



## Madeem (Oct 29, 2008)

Welcome here!

The background is very nice. Can I assume that Swiftstiker changes his name 2 Iron fist after he turned? there is a small problem with your chaos god however, since Khorne hates ranged combat. Slaanesh or Nurgle would be the only options since Tau dont't have psykers Cheenboy is not an option.

I would change the kroot for deamons otherwise keep it roughly the same.

Hope to read more details about them.


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Swift Strike does not change his name at the end. I has to go back and change his name, it could get confusing with the Iron Fist Legions. Swift Strike was chosen because Tau stratagy calls for the Cadres to always be on the move. They don't perfer to stay in one place and dig it.

The idea behind Khorne chosing him is in the fluff that i didn't post. The reasons are the following:

The Imperial Guard were dug into their trenches were it was hard to get a good shot. The Ethereals decided to send in the Kroots hoping to destroy them in the close corners of the trench system with the close combat skills. It was a slaughter as the Kroots were cut down in their advance. Word had reached Swift Strike of Commander Farsight teaching his Fire Warriors close combat skills while facing the Orks. He decided to do the same with his army, this may change the tide of battle to their favor.

Under the cover if night, the Hammerheads fired a barrage at the treches covering the advance of Swift Strike and his forces. He had taught them that the bonding knife could be effective, and using the pulse rifle butt to smash the humans' helmets in. The first attack did not fair well as they were cut down with chain swords and power swords.

Learning his lesson, he furthur studied the Imperial tactics and how to counter them. He decided to have another try. The same plan was tried, it was more effective as the Fire Warriors dogded their blows and cut the Cadian Troops down. Then they came into contact with shock troops and tried to avoid their blades. Swift Strike saw this, as his warriors ran away. Seeing that they were retreated he lead the charge to take them out. Little did he know that there was no one behind him in his charge, he took on the lead officer by himself.

Both sides were stunned at such a stupid action, how could he survive? With a loud yell he drew his blade and swung and missed. The officer struck back and caught his helmet leaving a scratch. Fury and madness filled Y'Miurnum as his vision turned red and he cut off the enemies legs and stabbed the blade into his chest. This resulted in his weapon breaking off stuck inside the dead body. He saw the power sword that he had dropped, picked it up, and took out the rest of the shock troops. 

With his new blade, he led several more charges against the enemy line. His warriors quickly became better fighters, taking chain swords and other close combat weapons from the dead. One day in a Imperial Bunker, Swift Strike was assaulting the heavy bolter battery inside. He cut down the men but he hadn't noticed that one had pulled the pin on a grenade. It then went off wounding him in the arm and chest. He was pulled off the front lines.

This is how Khorne came to chose him, he chose close combat over ranged shot. This leads to his power sword he aqquires in battle. One of only two Tau leaders to use close combat.


----------



## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Wrong area, It's a good idea, but how will you do Khornate Tau? They specialise in long range combat but you're going to make them frothing berzerkers swinging their railguns around? Cmon...

Edit: ok you explained it but it still seems a bit... might I say dumb?


----------



## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

So close-combat Tau?

While I can sort of accept it fluff-wise, though they'll always be poor close combat soldiers as Tau have inferior bodies compared to humans, poor eyesight is the only example I can remember and all of their technology and tactics developed ever is geared to shooting, but how do you intend to do this game-wise? Is this just an idea for an army you'll never do anything with, or will just make models for or what?


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

I have made a model of Commaner Swift Strike, I am working on Fire Warrior conversion. I have been making rules for a playable army, not quite done yet. I have stats for Swift Strike but the need fine tuning.
View attachment 1593


View attachment 1594


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

*i agree and disagree*

i think that your army plans though very aspiring are in the end going to fail to the main cause all the people have stated here tau though are a formidable foe in long range are short work in close combat i believe that you have a great idea but as what happened against burt at our last battle your swift strike will get smited by any real close combat unit... sorry.:nono: So in short leave the close combat to the professionals.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

i think that slaanesh would make more sense, as the switch to close combat is extreme, like suddenly deciding that you no longer want to be vegan, and immediately switch to eating meat. 

slaanesh would giv e a minor boost to close combat ability( extra init), but would encourage them to become the best marksmen there are. otherwise, the force is a little,"noobish," adding khornate elements to a formidable ranged opponent is like adding accurate arty to orks, no matter how good the fluff is, it still reeks of munchkinitis.


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I like the idea of Tau being converted to Chaos, though many don't. The standard response is "Tau have no psychic signatures: why would Chaos care about them?" - personally, I don't think Khorne cares where the blood comes from, as long as there's lots of it.

I do think you need to work out how you're going to represent this though, rules wise. That to me is a bigger barrier than the fluff or modelling. Sure you could give your Tau close combat weapons and charge them in, but they'll die, horribly. So, using this army with the Tau rules is out.

On the other hand, I can't really see how you could use the Chaos Marine rules with Tau minis, that just doesn't seem right. How come, in short, they're equal to a Space Marine, in terms of armour, combat skill and toughness, but still look like a Fire Warrior? So I don't think that would work either.

I can't see a way out of it using one or other codex. There are then three potential ways forward. One would be to use a _third_ codex - maybe Eldar, as a fragile, lightly-armoured but still hard-hitting army with decent CC units; the second way is to mix'n'match with elements from the Tau and Chaos Marine codices; and the third is to write your own codex.

I favour using the Eldar codex personally... but then I have been known to take the pointy-eared ones out for a spin now and again so maybe I'm biased.

But anyway, some stuff for you to think on. I hope some of it's of use.

:wishing you luck cyclops:


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

So i should change the storyline, no close combat, and slaanesh instead of khorne? I haven't done much looking at slaanesh, I'll make sure to look into him. 

All this info is really useful so I can make my fluff more believable. Thanks guys!


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

Awwwww Muffin Lord I WUV YOU!!! lol and ill lend you my codex at the next game lol


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks you, what I'm going to do is change the storyline to have Slaanesh instead of Khorne. Still keeping the daemons in the army. I'll post the new fluff when it's finished.


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

remember if you are changing to slaneesh then you definately dont want to paint your bloodletters red unless you wanna take em back and sell them and get the actual greater daemon and lesser daemons of slaneesh but if i were you id just paint the bloodletters in the paint scheme of slaneesh or tzeench which ever one you decide...k:


----------



## Casual_T (Jan 2, 2008)

The thing is that while Khorne may not care where the blood comes from, he has no way to communicate this to the Tau and turn them to chaos because they don't have a psychic presence. In fact, he may not even know Tau exist, if he only knows the immaterium.


----------



## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Casual_T said:


> The thing is that while Khorne may not care where the blood comes from, he has no way to communicate this to the Tau and turn them to chaos because they don't have a psychic presence. In fact, he may not even know Tau exist, if he only knows the immaterium.


thats like saying Khorne doesnt know Grey Knights exist...


----------



## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

While fluffwise, it is most likely that Tzentch would be the one to corrupt Tau... your fluff does give a really good excuse for them to be Khorne. the mini's look pretty cool, so I would say dont trash Khornate yet; if you are gonna try to make a new 'dex, post it here, and we could give you some C&C, it is a viable idea, and Red Ork gave you some good alternatives... but dont trash your idea yet, it has some pretty cool places it could end up...
good luck!


----------



## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Dessel_Ordo said:


> While fluffwise, it is most likely that Tzentch would be the one to corrupt Tau... your fluff does give a really good excuse for them to be Khorne. the mini's look pretty cool, so I would say dont trash Khornate yet; if you are gonna try to make a new 'dex, post it here, and we could give you some C&C, it is a viable idea, and Red Ork gave you some good alternatives... but dont trash your idea yet, it has some pretty cool places it could end up...
> good luck!


Tau worshipping Khorne does sound cool, as in they would all be dead very soon. 

Also your fluff says they worship Khorne because whatever his name is picked up a power sword and led a charge, I really think it should be changed. Tzeentch most likely, maybe Slaanesh, maybe Nurgle, but definetly not Khorne...


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Casual_T said:


> The thing is that while Khorne may not care where the blood comes from, he has no way to communicate this to the Tau and turn them to chaos because they don't have a psychic presence. In fact, he may not even know Tau exist, if he only knows the immaterium.


Doesn't matter. The psychic scream of all those slaughtered individuals has rent the immaterium.

An ancient device buried deep in the planet's surface acted as a psychic amplifier/beacon alerting Khorne.

The 'powersword' that the Tau Leader found was in fact a daemonic blade that communicated its satisfaction to Khorne using its own psychic power.

Khorne was looking when it happened.

A passing daemon flitting about its immaterial business happened to notice.

One of the dead was a powerful psyker who was in the process of being possessed by a daemon when he was killed, and the daemon took up residence in the nearest host, who in that instant of blood-lust and frenzy was 'visible' enough to immaterial beings to attack. Not being psychic meant he had no _defence_[ against the daemon...

There's usually a half-way plausible justification if you take a couple of seconds to think of it. After all, this is a game with spartan religious fish-men and angry mushrooms battling undead robots and hoverbike riding space-tree people.

ossibility-generating cyclops:


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> thats like saying Khorne doesnt know Grey Knights exist...


But Grey Knights are _all_ psykers. Not psychic nulls. 

He should EXTRA know they exist, especially since they're always kicking his boys asses :biggrin:


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> Tau worshipping Khorne does sound cool, as in they would all be dead very soon.
> 
> This is true, but Khorne wants the blood to flow even if it's his followers.
> 
> ...


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

KHORNE WILL NOT WORK FOR YOUR STORY LINE AND YOU CANT MIX GODS only abaddon can do so lol it doesnt matter what sword you use you cannot have and or mix to chaos gods powers it will be incorrect gamewise and storywise!!!:angry:


----------



## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

KiwackaBear said:


> ...YOU CANT MIX GODS only abaddon can do so lol it doesnt matter what sword you use you cannot have and or mix to chaos gods powers it will be incorrect gamewise and storywise!!!:angry:


Oh yeah? Read Codex Chaos Space Marines. Mixing gods gives us the versatility we sometimes lack.

Muffin Lord--As for this, "Khornate Tau," idea, it's your army, do what you will. However, what it *sounds* like (and I say this to everyone who tries this sort of thing) is that you're trying to plug the lack of melee ability hole by hybreeding a tau army with a daemon army. Just to be fair, and to save you some hassle down the road, this sort of concept is very often considered, "Munchinism." Just so you know.


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

What is this "Munchinism" that you speak of? I don't know what this term means.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Munchkinism is the practice of taking a shooty army, and adding elements that are close combat orientated and then adding heavy tanks, and loads of fast attack, but also not having any drawbacks, and....

essentially it is exactly the process here, tau are crap in close combat, but ace in shooting, by adding even the daemons, you see an improvement, with little in the way of a drawback, the tau are still tau, the daemons are still just as bloodthirsty and great in close combat. there isn't any drawback, unless the fluff is respected, which would invalidate the entire army.

That was why i suggested slaanesh, you can still have the bloodthirsty daemons, but it is toned down enough that it isn't so "beardy" and still has the chaos flavor, and a little boost to their hth potential.


----------



## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

It makes no sense! Tau are frail and would look stupid if they were made into Khornate warriors, unless you were a master sculpter and could add extreme detail they would look crap... Khornate Tau, dumb da dumb dumb dumb....


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

It makes no sense because it doesn't look right.

That's not actually a very good argument, is it?


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

I've thought it through, done my research and looked the facts over. The Unorthodox Tau Doctrine shall follow Slaanesh. It makes more sense for many reasons.

1-Slaanesh has abilities that play in favor of the Tau. The Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (Keeper of Secrets) can cause an enemy unit to engage it in CC or run away. This could help the Fire Warriors stay out of CC and fire more rounds into the enemy. 

2-The whole munchinism thing is right. An army with good ranged and close combat skills is too strong. 

3-Switching from a strickly ranged combat fighting style to bloody hand to hand combat is a hard right turn for an army to take.

4-The slight boost in HTH goes along with the story. The Tau want to get in the trenches and take on the Imerpial Guard, Slaanesh helps them out a little bit. Although they'll still probably get slaughtered.

Swift Strike will be keeping his power sword, much like Farsight has his Artifact Blade.


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

So how are you thinking of doing this rules-wise? Are you planning on using units from both the Tau and Daemon codices? Because that's precisely the process people are objecting to.

Perhaps a better way to go would be to invent a Tau special character who had greater close-combat potential than usual. Then you'd only really be changing one thing, instead of crunching two armies together to make up for their weaknesses.

:a bit concerned cyclops:


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

The original idea was that the break away Tau would be helped by daemons summoned from the warp. Swift Strike would grant the following abilities:

*Aided by Chaos*: In order to fight the forces of the Imperial Guard, Slaanesh sent daemons through the warp. Forces under commander of Swift Strike can have 0-2 squads of daemons, and 0-1 greater daemons of Slaanesh. If Swift Strike is killed, the daemons are pulled back into the warp. 

*Studied Tatics*: Through many battles against the Imperial Guard, Swift Strike has learned how to counter their fighting moves. Forces under his command are granted the Preferred Enemy rule when facing Imperial Guard.

*Breakaway Faction*: Swift Strike has turned his back on the greater good and now seeks only his personal revenge. No Ethereals, or Commanders Farsight or Shadowsun may be included in his forces.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Muffin Lord said:


> *Breakaway Faction*: Swift Strike has turned his back on the greater good and now seeks only his personal revenge. No Ethereals, or Commanders Farsight or Shadowsun may be included in his forces.


I might also add a restriction on certain units, such as either limiting the battlesuits or heavy armor, such as the sky ray or hammerhead, to represent the lack of resources due to being a breakaway faction and making the preferred enemy only in effect when the special character is present. otherwise, it seems pretty good.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> I might also add a restriction on certain units, such as either limiting the battlesuits or heavy armor, such as the sky ray or hammerhead, to represent the lack of resources due to being a breakaway faction and making the preferred enemy only in effect when the special character is present. otherwise, it seems pretty good.


seconded. not sure how exactly to declare the cut even, but a decrease in suits/tanks would be fair... sub in a daemon-tau mix to fill the suits spot (not as good, but something to fill the FOC spot with, as losing suits and tanks outs most HS and FA options).


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

To me, this appears to be an attempt to shore up the CC weakness in Tau while losing none of the strength of the army. I also assume that you face Imperial guard forces more frequently than other forces, or at least have more trouble with them - hence the addition of the Studied Tactics special rule. Again, I would have to say that you are attempting to shore up weaknesses that you see in your play. Instead of trying to change the rules, I'd change tactics. If you absolutely must mess with the rules and the game balance, I suggest the following changes (my are underlined):

*Aided by Chaos:* In order to fight the forces of the Imperial Guard, Slaanesh sent daemons through the warp. Forces under commander of Swift Strike can have 0-2 squads of daemons, and 0-1 greater daemons of Slaanesh. If Swift Strike is killed, the daemons are pulled back into the warp Though Slaanesh has sent his forces to aid Swift Strike, they are NOT a cohesive force. No special rule for Tau may be used to aid the Daemons forces (such as marker lights) nor may Daemon special rules be used to aid the Tau (such as deepstrike deployment).

*Studied Tatics:* Through many battles against the Imperial Guard, Swift Strike has learned how to counter their fighting moves. Forces under his command are granted the Preferred Enemy rule when facing Imperial Guard. This specialization has a price however. Their single minded focus on the forces of the Imperium has left them vulnerable to the varied tactics of other forces. Before a game against any non-Imperial Guard force that faces a Tau army led by Swift Strike the opponent rolls a D6. On a 4+ result, that army gains the Preferred Enemy: Tau special rule.

*Breakaway Faction:* Swift Strike has turned his back on the greater good and now seeks only personal revenge. As a result he lacks the support that Tau commanders have come to rely upon. Any army using Swift Strike may take no other named character (including named daemons) or Ethereal. Swift Strike's army may include 0-1 Hammerhead; no Broadsides Units may be used.

*The Price of Chaos:* The aid of a being such as Slaanesh doesn't come for free. Each turn Commander Swift Strike is in reserve or on the board, turn nominate 1 squad and roll a D6 for that squad. On the result of 1 that unit has their souls devoured by Slaanesh, remove them from the board - no save or special rule of any kind may save them at this point; on the roll of a 6 the nominated squad mutinies, and fires their weapons at Commander Swift Strike. Their weapons fire at maximum rate and neither range nor cover apply. If he is slain, the Daemons immediately leave the board and the Price of Chaos special rule's effect ends. Further, Tau are not used to the horrible corruption that is Chaos. Any Tau unit within 12" of a consumed squad OR a daemon ally must make a moral test. If failed the unit routes and falls back as normal.

Even this, I don't particularly like, but its better. I'd just skip it and learn to play Tau. They're one of the best forces out there, easily competitive with any other force.

EDIT: As one last thought, this probably belongs in the Houserules and Homebrew section. Moderator . . . ?


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Quite a lot to chew on there Daneel2.0, your thoughts and suggestions are greatly needed. I agree with you on a few things you said, but disagree on some as well. 

Though Slaanesh has sent his forces to aid Swift Strike, they are NOT a cohesive force. No special rule for Tau may be used to aid the Daemons forces (such as marker lights) nor may Daemon special rules be used to aid the Tau (such as deepstrike deployment). True, the daemons have no idea what a markerlight system is or how it works. Do they even has ranged weapons? 

This specialization has a price however. Their single minded focus on the forces of the Imperium has left them vulnerable to the varied tactics of other forces. Before a game against any non-Imperial Guard force that faces a Tau army led by Swift Strike the opponent rolls a D6. On a 4+ result, that army gains the Preferred Enemy: Tau special rule. This is not possible, in order to gain the Preferred Enemy rule your army requires extensive battle exsperience fighting a single army. You learn how to fight them overtime. If i fight an Eldar army they were to use this rule and gain Preferred Enemy, where is the fighting exsperience coming from? If the Swift Strike army facing any other foe than Imperial Guard they just don't get the special rule.

a result he lacks the support that Tau commanders have come to rely upon. Any army using Swift Strike may take no other named character (including named daemons) or Ethereal. Swift Strike's army may include 0-1 Hammerhead; no Broadsides Units may be used. This is something that I have been working on. Much like Farsight, he lacks getting better units if his are destroyed. Forces include: No Kroots, 0-2 Hammerheads, 0-1 Broadsides, No Skyrays, 0-3 Crisis Suits.

The Price of Chaos, seems too.... extreme? Since the Tau are not fearless, if any Tau unit fails a leadership test they automatically take X number of wounds equal to the number you went over your leadership. Much like the rule for Daemon units. *Or*, if the unit fails the leadership test then their souls are taken, no saves of anykind are allowed.


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Muffin Lord said:


> True, the daemons have no idea what a markerlight system is or how it works. Do they even has ranged weapons?


Some of them do. And I wasn't talking about just markerlights, although certainly that system too. I'm talking about all of the Tau systems and all the Daemon special rules. So no getting shield drones for your Daemons, no mounting Berserkers in Wave Serpents, etc.



Muffin Lord said:


> This is not possible, in order to gain the Preferred Enemy rule your army requires extensive battle exsperience fighting a single army. You learn how to fight them overtime. If i fight an Eldar army they were to use this rule and gain Preferred Enemy, where is the fighting exsperience coming from? If the Swift Strike army facing any other foe than Imperial Guard they just don't get the special rule.


Right, however this isn't a bonus to the enemy so much as a penalty to the Tau. Think of it like an anti-Preferred Enemy if you like. The Tau are so used to fighting Imperial Guard, they move wrong and fight wrong against everyone else. For example, if you strike and then duck to the left when fighting IG to avoid their counter strike, you may end up putting your head directly in line with an Eldar's counter strike. Now, since you have Preferred Enemy to only 1 army, I felt it would be too big a penalty to give it to all other enemies fighting you, but a 4+ on a D6 is a reasonable compromise.



Muffin Lord said:


> This is something that I have been working on. Much like Farsight, he lacks getting better units if his are destroyed. Forces include: No Kroots, 0-2 Hammerheads, 0-1 Broadsides, No Skyrays, 0-3 Crisis Suits.


Agreed, like Farsight you lack the support that Tau commanders enjoy. The benefits that your army and Farsight's army are different though. Since you chose to have the CC benefit from Daemons, you need to lose some of the ranged benefit from Tau. The easiest way to do this is to limit the number of Rail guns you have access to. Makes sense from fluff too as they would be VERY complex field pieces requiring specialized maintenance units to cope with. 



Muffin Lord said:


> The Price of Chaos, seems too.... extreme? Since the Tau are not fearless, if any Tau unit fails a leadership test they automatically take X number of wounds equal to the number you went over your leadership. Much like the rule for Daemon units. *Or*, if the unit fails the leadership test then their souls are taken, no saves of anykind are allowed.


I included this as a single rule, but could in fact be 2 different ones since they are to cope with 2 different situations. The first is that Swift Strike must have offered something to Slaanesh to entice him to send help. Since Slaanesh has such a penchant for Eldar souls I thought he might like to branch out into Tau. So he says to Swift Strike, "I'll give you a hand, but I'd like to see how some of your units taste". What he didn't count on was how hard it is to effect Tau, since they have such a small presence in the Warp. Thus, he only gets to consume a unit on a roll of 1. To compound that, Tau forces aren't used to working with Daemons, so even if their personal loyalty to Swift Strike is enough to get them to leave the Tau empire in his favor, it may not extend that far. To represent this, I have them rebel and try to Frag him on a roll of 6. What this means in actual terms is that in a standard 6 round game you are likely to lose 1 unit and make 1 batch of saves with Swift Strike (and remember, the unit shooting him would have to roll to hit and wound as normal, so if you choose the correct unit to sacrifice, he may not take any damage at all) 

The second situation that I deal with has to do with their inexperience in dealing with Chaos on such close terms. To represent this, they take Leadership tests. Again well supported fluff wise, since having Slaanesh eat a fellow unit, or having a unit of daemons run up and help me, might just make me reconsider the direction my life is going as well. Notice that I didn't say they couldn't regroup, so even if they run, they may not stay running.

All told, I think the disadvantages I give almost balance out the benefit that you get from the inclusion of Daemons in your list. You are still a bit beardy, but not nearly as bad as you were.


----------



## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

For The Price of Chaos I would say regular range restrictions should still apply... they still shoot at Swift Strike... which is a loss in and of itself (wasted shooting) and it makes Swift Strike trickier to feild, as you need to keep him away from bigger units, lest he be gunned down by freindly fire.

Breakaway Faction the numbers still need some refining. Personally, I would say only 1 railgun unit is fair, as a hit will garuntee a pen on most vehicles (50% chance worst case scenario). You could take XV8's down to a 0-1 or 0-2, but let fire warrior squads take 1 'special weapon' aka hardwire a suit weapon... maybe count some as heavies... to balance out the ammount of the weapon types universally enjoyed (high AP, template, blast...). You still get the guns, but not anywhere NEAR to them being as well delivered, used, and mobile. And with the way the FOC and XV8's work out... you still wont get as many guns as you would using suits.


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Some of them do. And I wasn't talking about just markerlights, although certainly that system too. I'm talking about all of the Tau systems and all the Daemon special rules. So no getting shield drones for your Daemons, no mounting Berserkers in Wave Serpents, etc.

I agree with this, the daemons don't know how Tau items and weapons work, so therefor do not benefit from them. They're only able to get upgrades and weapons avaible to the Daemons from their own codex.

Right, however this isn't a bonus to the enemy so much as a penalty to the Tau. Think of it like an anti-Preferred Enemy if you like. The Tau are so used to fighting Imperial Guard, they move wrong and fight wrong against everyone else. For example, if you strike and then duck to the left when fighting IG to avoid their counter strike, you may end up putting your head directly in line with an Eldar's counter strike. Now, since you have Preferred Enemy to only 1 army, I felt it would be too big a penalty to give it to all other enemies fighting you, but a 4+ on a D6 is a reasonable compromise.

I can see a point in your logic, but the odds are a little too in the enemies favor. I'd say a roll of 5+ on a D6. The reduces the odds from 50% down to 33%. It's still a good possibility that they might get the Preferred enemy rule, but it would only count against Tau units not the Daemons.

Agreed, like Farsight you lack the support that Tau commanders enjoy. The benefits that your army and Farsight's army are different though. Since you chose to have the CC benefit from Daemons, you need to lose some of the ranged benefit from Tau. The easiest way to do this is to limit the number of Rail guns you have access to. Makes sense from fluff too as they would be VERY complex field pieces requiring specialized maintenance units to cope with. 

Limiting the number of rail guns is a good idea, it also fits with the fluff of them breaking off from the empire. Also trimming back the number of seeker missles he's allowed to have since he's unable to replace the ones that he has used. If I were to include a Skyray, it would only have 3 seeker missles instead of the 6 it would have.

The Price of Chaos still seems too much, there's a 1/3 chance everyturn of a unit going bad or disappearing. Since Tau are not fearless, they must take a leadership test correct. If they fail, the player rolls a D6 for that squad for the following affects.

1: Devour souls- Slaanesh is displeased that the Tau are running away from the battle rather than die with honor. Slaanesh then eats the souls of the squad, no saves of anykind are allowed.

2-4: Mutany- The Tau forces question the path that they are taking and decide to turn on their leader. They shot at Swift Strike at full range, they role to hit and wound. Saves may be taken as normal.

5-6: Fall back- The leadership test is failed as normal, they fall back as normal.

Thanks Daneel2.0 for the ideas, it's good to have ideas bounched around.


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, it's your choice of course, but I can tell you that without some significant drawback, you would be hard pressed to get a game in my local shop with the army. If you can get your opponent to agree to it, I suppose you could mount a rail gun on each and every individual trooper, but I don't think that doing so would be all that interesting a fight.

The way I have it written, there are a couple of obvious drawbacks, the possibility for an opponent to play with a rule they probably don't get the opportunity to play with much and you still get your daemon CC bonus.

But like I said earlier, if it were me I'd just adjust my tactics. I'm not really a big fan of making this kind of change to army lists. It always seems like cheating to me (not saying it is, just that it feels like it to me).

And your welcome for the ideas. They're free :biggrin:


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

The numbers still need some refining. Personally, I would say only 1 railgun unit is fair, as a hit will garuntee a pen on most vehicles (50% chance worst case scenario). You could take XV8's down to a 0-1 or 0-2, but let fire warrior squads take 1 'special weapon' aka hardwire a suit weapon... maybe count some as heavies... to balance out the ammount of the weapon types universally enjoyed (high AP, template, blast...). You still get the guns, but not anywhere NEAR to them being as well delivered, used, and mobile. And with the way the FOC and XV8's work out... you still wont get as many guns as you would using suits.

I like this idea, it gives it a hint of what the other armies troops have. That's one thing that I've never liked, Fire Warriors get only two choices of weapons, heavy weapons given to them sounds good. It would give me 3 heavy weapons. (In the foc there's only 3 Fire Warrior groups). This would more than compensate for the loss of suits.

Anymore thoughts for the Price of Chaos, Daneel2.0 has something going there. It just needs a little adjustment. Here's an idea: you role 2 D6, if either of them is a 6 they turn and fire on Swift Strike. Double sixes they get two shot, and two ones results in Souls Devoured.

How do you quote people with the little box around their text. Haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

what if you get double ones i think if you get double ones you lose the squad then anything within a d6 roll is sucked into the warp...


----------



## KiwackaBear (Nov 13, 2008)

Make sure not to stretch your fluff to thin and to also remember that a Soulgrinder no matter how cool or tempting it is is NOT i emphasizeNOT!a greater daemon and you cannot substitute khorne bloodletters for your slaneeshian daemonettes no matter how hard you try i will not adress them as a model and when on field i will ignore anything you think you will do...or treat them as moving terrain or something like that... but just so you remember one more time...A SOULGRINDER IS NOT A GREATER DAEMON AND YOUR UNORTHODOX TAU DOES NOT YIELD OR WIELD IT!


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Dessel_Ordo said:


> For The Price of Chaos I would say regular range restrictions should still apply... they still shoot at Swift Strike... which is a loss in and of itself (wasted shooting) and it makes Swift Strike trickier to feild, as you need to keep him away from bigger units, lest he be gunned down by freindly fire.


I was thinking of a completely different situation actually. Something like: 

*Price of Chaos:*After deployment and before movement on the first turn, and before movement on subsequent turns, designate a single Tau unit not engaged in CC and roll a D6. On the result of 1 that unit is consumed by Slaanesh as its price for aid. On a result of 6 that unit fires its weapons at Commander Swift Strike for making his foul bargain. Resolve shooting immediately as if the unit was stationary and ignoring intervening terrain to represent the Tau unit's ability to get close to Commander Swift Strike w/o suspicion. If, during the game, Swift Strike is shot at again the Tau find him on his guard. The nominated unit still shoots at Commander Swift Strike, but range and terrain are NOT ignored. Any Tau unit that shoots at Commander Swift Strike act normally during the remainder of the turn and may move and shoot at enemy units as normal.

*Darkness Rising* Tau are unused to daemon allies, and the corruption they bring with them. Any non-fearless Tau unit w/in 12" of an allied daemon unit or a unit consumed by Slaanesh must make a leadership test or fall back. If they are eligible, they may attempt a regroup as normal next turn. 



Muffin Lord said:


> I like this idea, it gives it a hint of what the other armies troops have. That's one thing that I've never liked, Fire Warriors get only two choices of weapons, heavy weapons given to them sounds good. It would give me 3 heavy weapons. (In the foc there's only 3 Fire Warrior groups). This would more than compensate for the loss of suits.


Absolutely not. Tau Fire Warriors *SHOULD NOT CHANGE* from the codex. They don't get a heavy weapon. The fact that they already have the best infantry rifle in the game (with the possible exception of guass flayer) not withstanding, you don't make changes you don't have to when you are already making objectionable changes in the first place. *especially when the additional change you want to make destroys Tau game balance by itself*



Muffin Lord said:


> Anymore thoughts for the Price of Chaos, Daneel2.0 has something going there. It just needs a little adjustment. Here's an idea: you role 2 D6, if either of them is a 6 they turn and fire on Swift Strike. Double sixes they get two shot, and two ones results in Souls Devoured.


You are still trying to get something for nothing. There is a 1:3 chance that something will happen the way that I've written. In a standard 6 turn game that means you will probably lose 1 designated Tau unit, and have to take some saves on Commander Swift Strike. This is not too hard a price to pay for 3 units of daemons. I have toned it down somewhat, allowing for cover and distance to play a roll after the first. This should mitigate the effects for your commander at least. 



Muffin Lord said:


> How do you quote people with the little box around their text. Haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.


You use the "quote" button on their post. If you want to quote multiple people, you use the "multi quote" button on all but the last which you use the "quote" button on.

As to the inclusion of a Soul Grinder, my understanding was that you wanted troops and a single HQ. If you want to include elite, fast or heavy choices, they you need to consider why Slaanesh would give up such valuable units. And the price you need to pay for them needs to be MUCH higher. 

Also, are you planning on including the Daemons in your FOC, or are you putting them outside it like in the Chaos Codex?


----------



## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

good points Daneel. Thinking of it, I didnt really think that suggestion thru all the way. I do beleive the way you spun Price of Chaos works pretty well, this could be an interesting list to play once the last of the kinks are gone.


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks  I appreciate that.

I still say he should stick to Tau, or buy Daemons though:laugh:


----------



## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

To be honest, I can't imagine anyone agreeing to play against this army. The best shooty units in the game combined with the best melee units in the game with such very little drawback? Wow... My suggestions would be as follows:

1.) If you want to play Tau, play Tau.
2.) If you want to play Daemons, play Daemons.
3.) If you want to play both, play them together (using the rules as outlined in each of their own respective codeci) in Apocalypse.

So far from what I've seen in this topic, it seems like a classic case of, "I want it ALL." Which, is understandable (to an extent), as there are some very powerful units in each codex. However, mixing and matching is one quick way to make sure that finding a game is very, very difficult aside from perhaps those in your immediate group of friends.


----------



## Muffin Lord (Nov 12, 2008)

Seeing as how there's too much contravery with the Tau Chaos alliance, I'm abandoning the project. It had a good run, but what works for some doesn't work for others. 

Sticking with a Tau army from now on. Thanks for all the input guys.


----------

