# Konrad Curze > all other primarchs: Respect Thread



## Lux

Konrad Curze is the most powerful of all the primarchs, and has been labeled as the most dangerous of all the primarchs including Horus. Several characters in the lore have stated that Curze's destruction far eclipses anything, and everything Horus has done, even making Horus seem like a child.

In this thread I shall cite every feat of Konrad curze, and explain why it is to be praised as well as why it contributes to his superiority over every other primarch. 

*Mastery of psychology*
1. Played with the Lion's mind for 16 weeks out of pure sadistic pleasure, fractured the Lion's composure and stressed him out beyond limitation. Curze mentally broke the Lion so bad by torturing him with mind games for 16 weeks in the dark, that the Lion truly believed that he was a English colonial era hunter that was hunting his "Quarry" an actual living rock.

- Unremembered Empire

*Mastery of Tactics, and strategy*
2. Curze utterly destroy the Dark Angels Legion single highhandedly, even though the Dark Angels had a living warp engine that allowed them to warp their entire legion unified to a single precise location. The Lion upon Reaching Ultramar stated that his entire legion was with him, and that he had a total of about 20k Dark Angels. Curze eradicated 80,000 dark angels during the Thramas crusade, seeing as at the beginning of the thramas crusade the Lion had the full strength of his 100k legion. 

A. Curze only lost roughly 1/3 of his legion due to the lion's supposed ambush via living warp engine, however the lion lost 80k, so Curze's visions likely allowed him to see it in advance. This demonstrates how superior Curze was as a primarch, and as a general in warfare.

-Unremembered Empire
-Shadows of Treachery

*Precognition*
3. Curze had 24/7 active pre-cognition which played out constantly in his minds eye, this allowed him to see everything that would happen, could happen, and was happening (only vulkan appearing on ultramar was not seen). 

A. Curze used this pre-cognition to actively count the bolter rounds mid air before they fired at him by dark angels astartes, he then knew exactly where each bolter round would land and promptly and effortlessly blocked each one with a shield or side stepped them. 

-Unremembered Empire

*Mastery of fighting prowess, superior fighting ability*
4. Curze fought Guilliman and the Lion in a 2 versus 1 melee, Curze utterly stomped both primarchs into the ground. Curze suffered two wounds during the entire fight, the first was when Guilliman slashed Curze's abdomen with his gladius, the second was when the Lion cut his cheek open. 

A. Contrastingly Curze stabbed the Lion through his neck with a full talon of his lightning claw, then Curze stabbed guilliman through the chest with 4 complete lightning claw talons. Both the Lion and Guilliman were increasingly losing as the fight went on, and if Curze had not detonated the building he would have killed them in melee. 

B. The Lion and Guilliman only survived their encounter with Curze due to an ancient necron living warp beacon transporting them across the galaxy, which if it wouldn't have they both would have incinerated from the explosion.

-Unremembered Empire

*Absolute invisibility*
5. Curze is able to become completely, and absolutely invisible both physically as well as psychically. In Unremembered Empire Curze is able to become a living shadow that is undetectable by astartes helmets, eyes, and by a psyker. Grammaticus even states at the end of the novel that Curze is psych invisible whenever he wants to be, and that he cant be detected if he doesn't want to be detected. 

-Unremembered Empire
-Dark King

*Intangibility*
6. Curze is able to become intangible whenever he wants, demonstrated throughout the unremembered empire Curze could transform instantly into smoke. Even in rooms where there is no darkness, no smoke, he was able to become smoke and reappear somewhere else in the room without being detected at hyper sonic speeds. He did this to the Lion as well as Guilliman during their fight multiple times, and he did to a plethora of astartes both in the light and darkness.

A. When inside the ultramarines fortress Curze was in the middle of a small room that was filled with 10 space wolves, it is stated that Curze instantly appeared in the middle of the room out of nowhere "as if he slipped out of a crack in the wall or a curtain". This is after it is stated that Curze is a massive, extremely tall menacing figure.

-Unremembered Empire

*Telekinesis*
7. Curze possesses telekinesis as he is able to at will make ceilings collapse, and lights explode.

-Unremembered Empire
-Dark King

*Produce unpredictable darkness*
9. Curze is able to produce darkness wherever he is, and this darkness is not normal as both astartes and psykers state that they are unable to pierce it with their enhanced vision, wargear, and or psychic senses. 

-Unremembered Empire
-Dark King


Overall Curze possesses *pre-cognition*, *telekinesis*, *teleportation*, *tangible invisibility*, *psychic invisibility*, *intangibility at will by turning into smoke*, * able to produce unnatural darkness that cannot be seen through*, * fighting ability that surpasses both the lion, and guilliman*.

I will add more later.


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## Angel of Blood

Bored now.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> Bored now.


If you have nothing to contribute to the respect thread, please do not post. This is at thread to honor, promote, and bring divine awareness of Konrad Curze's superiority to all other primarchs.


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## Loki1416

Vulcan can't die. He fell from orbit and still lived. That makes him the strongest.
Magnus once got a paper cut while looking through an ancient tome. That makes him the strongest.
Really, this isn't an argument that can be won.


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## Lux

Loki1416 said:


> Vulcan can't die. He fell from orbit and still lived. That makes him the strongest.
> Magnus once got a paper cut while looking through an ancient tome. That makes him the strongest.
> Really, this isn't an argument that can be won.


Vulcan can die



the lightning infused blade removed his immortality at the end of unremembered empire.


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## Nacho libre

fuck it man, lorgar is the boss. he bitch slapped rowboat gulliman.


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## Reaper45

Lux said:


> Vulcan can die
> 
> 
> 
> the lightning infused blade removed his immortality at the end of unremembered empire.


And again you read it wrong.

John sacrificed his own immortality to save vulkan. It did not remove anything.


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## Lux

Reaper45 said:


> And again you read it wrong.
> 
> John sacrificed his own immortality to save vulkan. It did not remove anything.


It removed John's, and Vulkan's immortality.


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## Lux

Nacho libre said:


> fuck it man, lorgar is the boss. he bitch slapped rowboat gulliman.


To be precise he first used a telekinetic push against Rowboat, then he swung his large mace with such speed that it shattered the sound barrier straight into Rowboat's head. The narration stated that Rowboat would bear that scar till the day he died, thus the swing was so powerful and psychically charged that it forever maimed Rowboat on a psychic level.

If you notice that after that battle Rowboat was never the same mentally, he was broken, paranoid, schizophrenic.


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## Nacho libre

Lux said:


> To be precise he first used a telekinetic push against Rowboat, then he swung his large mace with such speed that it shattered the sound barrier straight into Rowboat's head. The narration stated that Rowboat would bear that scar till the day he died, thus the swing was so powerful and psychically charged that it forever maimed Rowboat on a psychic level.
> 
> If you notice that after that battle Rowboat was never the same mentally, he was broken, paranoid, schizophrenic.


im talking about the purging of monarchia.


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## Lux

Nacho libre said:


> im talking about the purging of monarchia.


Ah yes that punch floored rowboat, and kept him unconscious for two weeks straight.


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## revan4559

As good as Konrad is, he isnt the greatest of all the primarchs. In a way they were all created more-or-less equal with strengths and weakness's.

If he came down to him fighting each one of the other primarchs there are definately a few who would quite easily kill him:

Angron wouldn't care on how many wounds he'd take to get at Curze because as soon as he has Curze thats it he is dead, likely going to have his head removed.

Magnus the Red is second in psychic power only to the Emperor and I highly doubt that The Night Haunter is going to withstand the Crimson King simply crushing his mind and leaving him a dribbling mess.

Lion, Sanguinius, Fulgrim and The Khan are said to be the greatest swordsmen of all the primarchs. If we are looking at the Lion as the basis for all four then its quite obvious that the other three will be able to beat Curze as the Lion vs Curze record shows that its 1 Draw, 1 Win to the Lion and the third time Konrad ran away so the record is definately in the Lion's favour.

Sanguinius himself is perhaps one of only two primarchs who can evenly match Angron in a fight, the other being Horus so if Sanguinius and Horus can beat Angron then its obvious that they can beat Curze. Sanguinius also has the 'Sight' so it counter-acts Konrad's. Also Sanguinius can fly and as far as i know Shadows cant fly or be anything other than '2d'.

There are probably a few other Primarchs who can beat Curze such as Mortarion, Ferrus, Russ and Vulkan however they are mainly from savagery and being alot tougher than the Night Haunter. The reason that Dorn isnt in that list is because as we see in Dark King / The Lightning Tower (cant remember which one at the exact moment but i believe its the latter) Dorn himself is scared of what Curze can do.

We can debate how good or bad the Primarch of the Eighth Legion is all day however there is one piece of evidence that shows in the end he wasn't the best of all the primarchs and here is one:

Horus - Killed by the Emperor
Sanguinius - Killed by Horus
Ferrus - Killed by Fulgrim
Vulkan - Killed(?) by Curze
Alpharius - Killed by Papa-Smurf

Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter - Killed by an Assassian, who after all was just a human. Yes M'shen may of been an augemented and highly trained assassin but after all she was still HUMAN, not a near-immortal demi-god made from science and the warp.


As for what your saying about Moricharia, you clearly havent read the chapter which its in properly. Guilliman is on the floor for a matter of moments before he stands up again and tells him that the Custodes are going to accompany Lorgar and his Word Bearers. He was not unconscious for two weeks.


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## Jacobite

*Wonders if a picture of a variety of adult toys with Nighthaunter's face on them would be inappropriate to post and a link so Lux can buy them and finally fulfill his obsession with the character. Decides it would be*

Have fun kids.

*leaves*


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## Angel of Blood

I think it would be Jaco.


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## Khorne's Fist

I don't think I've ever come across anyone with such a hard-on for a fictional character, and that includes my teenage neighbours who were practically ramming themselves with copies of the Twilight books. 

Seriously man, get some help.


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## Tawa

Khorne's Fist said:


> I don't think I've ever come across anyone with such a hard-on for a fictional character, and that includes my teenage neighbours who were practically ramming themselves with copies of the Twilight books.


Papercuts..... :laugh:


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## gothik

Tawa said:


> Papercuts..... :laugh:


for a book like that.....dickmarks instead of bookmarks more like:wink:


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## Lux

Konrad Curze in Unremembered Empire, a fitting addition for the respect thread of him.


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## gothik

there are some awesome pictures of Curze around, i have seen more than one on the warhammer groups on Deviant Art, but Lux, to be fair Curze was a homicidal maniac in Primarch form. He was shaped by the world he was raised on and he became the master of fear, but there are other Primarchs who raise above him in every aspect. He was plagued by nightmares and waking visions of the future and his death, he was unstable and whilst he is one of my favourite Primarchs, i wouldnt go so far as to raise him above the likes of Horus or Sanguinius, Dorn or The Lion.


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## Lost&Damned

Id actually say that all the primarchs except maybe ferrus are better than him by about the length of a head.


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## Angel of Blood

I agree. Roboute and the Lion were clearly just trolling him, not a single one of the astartes Curze thinks he killed are actually dead, and now in the Imperium Secundus, they are all just watching a gag reel of Curze failing around Macragge as the loyalists sing 'Trolololol' Stupid Curze, so many disillusion in his fractured mind, that he actually thought all of that was happening. Funny, yet tragically sad.


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## Lux

Everyone! Robot Gullimang himself stated that Curze was the greatest threat the galaxy had ever know, and that his destruction would eclipse anything Horus would do. 

The Lion himself was also cracked and mentally destroyed by curze, Curze had the Lion thinking he was an actual english huntsman who was hunting live animals in his ship for 16 weeks.


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## Lux

Konrad Curze after he utterly beat down, humiliated, and defeated Corax on the fields of Istvaan. Here we can see Konrad hold a feather that he ripped out of Corax's head.


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## Angel of Blood

I take it you didn't read the part where Roboute was smirking and everyone else was trying not to laugh as he said that.

That's actually got written on it "I love you" He fled, and Curze didn't kill him, because they were in fact, in love.


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## Brother Lucian

Regarding Lionel Johnson in the Unremembered Empire. He cant have had his whole legion with him, as the Fallen Angels to be and Luther was still left behind at Caliban. Luther and company was after all frothing at the bit to see action, hence them attacking upon the return of LeJ and the legion fleet.


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## Lux

Brother Lucian said:


> Regarding Lionel Johnson in the Unremembered Empire. He cant have had his whole legion with him, as the Fallen Angels to be and Luther was still left behind at Caliban. Luther and company was after all frothing at the bit to see action, hence them attacking upon the return of LeJ and the legion fleet.


Luthor had a single company with him for recruiting purposes, the entirety of the Dark Angels legion was with Johnson for the Thramas Crusade. Johnson stated he had his entire legion with him when he arrived at Ultramar, and he stated that it consisted of 20,000 astartes.

Konrad Curze utterly destroyed Johnson's legion during that crusade.


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## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> Konrad Curze after he utterly beat down, humiliated, and defeat Corax on the fields of Istvaan. Here we can see Konrad hold a feather that he ripped out of Corax's head.


You must have read a different book to the rest of us. He saved Lorgar from Corax, halting the killing blow Corax was about to land. He certainly didn't beat him down and humiliate him. As for the feather from Corax's head, Corax didn't have feathers anywhere on him, especially not his head. Long black hair, sure, but no feathers.


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## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> You must have read a different book to the rest of us. He saved Lorgar from Corax, halting the killing blow Corax was about to land. He certainly didn't beat him down and humiliate him. As for the feather from Corax's head, Corax didn't have feathers anywhere on him, especially not his head. Long black hair, sure, but no feathers.


Corax most certainly did have feathers all over his body, that is pretty well established in the lore. Curze even says to Corax after he has humiliated him "No where to fly away to, little birdie"


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## Khorne's Fist

Where is it established? For once, please, corroborate that statement with a direct quotation from the novels about Corax having feathers!


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## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> Where is it established? For once, please, corroborate that statement with a direct quotation from the novels about Corax having feathers!


Okay first off I am insulted, this entire thread was built upon direct citations. I cited every feat that I mentioned in the OP, I listed the exact book and para-quote it came from.

So please at least acknowledge that, you know how hard that was to go through each book?


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## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> Okay first off I am insulted, this entire thread was built upon direct citations. I cited every feat that I mentioned in the OP, I listed the exact book and para-quote it came from.
> 
> So please at least acknowledge that, you know how hard that was to go through each book?


Stop dissembling and answer the fucking question. Where in any novel, on any page, does it state that Corax had feathers anywhere on him? You have made a statement of fact that it is long established. Back this up with a direct quotation.


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## SoL Berzerker

Not once in Deliverance Lost does it say that Corax has feathers. 

On Istvaan, I'm fairly certain that Corax says he could have killed both Lorgar and Curze. On the drop ship during his retreat from Istvaan he begins to have deep regret for not staying back and finishing them off.


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## Stig'sPrimarchCousin

Lux said:


> Corax most certainly did have feathers all over his body, that is pretty well established in the lore.


HAHAHAHAH that is the dumbest thing I've read all week. He certainly did not. His jump pack had feathers, thats it.



Lux said:


> Johnson stated he had his entire legion with him when he arrived at Ultramar, and he stated that it consisted of 20,000 astartes.
> 
> Konrad Curze utterly destroyed Johnson's legion during that crusade.


Yes Jonson had 20k astartes with him at Ultramar, but the rest of his legion was in the hands of Corswain. 



Lux said:


> Everyone! Robot Gullimang himself stated that Curze was the greatest threat the galaxy had ever know, and that his destruction would eclipse anything Horus would do.
> 
> The Lion himself was also cracked and mentally destroyed by curze, Curze had the Lion thinking he was an actual english huntsman who was hunting live animals in his ship for 16 weeks.


The first part was a joke to his men...and as for the second he was not mentally cracked or destroyed at all. He was irritated and annoyed it was taking so long to deal with Kurze, that's it. _Vulkan_ was mentally cracked and destroyed. There's a vast difference in their mental states. Oh and I'm suprised I even have to explain this to you but The Lion did not think he was an English hunter, that was just the author's description of the event.


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## Khorne's Fist

Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> His jump pack had feathers, thats it.


And they were hand made steel feathers capable of taking heads off.


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## ntaw

opcorn:


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## Angel of Blood

I don't understand why people are arguing anymore. Just troll right back, it's more fun.


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## Khorne's Fist

I'm just waiting for the Corax's feathers citation. He has been on since then, but seems to have chosen to ignore the thread now.


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## Moriouce

Hold! This has gone on long enough! Everyone has the right tha have their opinion. If you want to object do so with established fluff and don't redicule. I the person don't listen to argument just let it be. Those people aint worth the time and effort.


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## Nordicus

Moriouce said:


> Hold! This has gone on long enough!


Have to agree with this. 

If he is a troll, as many of you claim, then report him and have the post removed. 
If he isn't then the thread is borderline bullying - Regardless of history. And bullying is never ok, fun or remotely acceptable.

Play nice.


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## Angel of Blood

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm just waiting for the Corax's feathers citation. He has been on since then, but seems to have chosen to ignore the thread now.


Why? He has never once, ever provided a citation, why do you think he will change now?


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## scscofield

If you people do not like Lux 's threads then stay out of them. No one is forcing you people to be douchebags.


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## Tawa

Nordicus said:


> Play nice.


This.


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## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> Stop dissembling and answer the fucking question. Where in any novel, on any page, does it state that Corax had feathers anywhere on him? You have made a statement of fact that it is long established. Back this up with a direct quotation.


*-First Heretic
-Ravens Flight
-Deliverance Lost*



Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> Yes Jonson had 20k astartes with him at Ultramar, but the rest of his legion was in the hands of Corswain.


Entirely untrue, at the end of Shadows of treachery the Lion states that he has set course straight for Ultramar with the entirety of his legion. The Lion is planning to fight Guilliman, and if necessary kill him if he assesses him as a traitor who is conspiring for the throne. 
*-Shadows of treachery*

Guillima asks the Lion how many warships, and astartes that Lion has brought with him to Ultramar. The Lion replies that he has with him just about the entirety of his legion, which he then states consists of about 20,000 astartes.
*-Unremembered Empire*


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## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> *-First Heretic
> -Ravens Flight
> -Deliverance Lost*


Not good enough I'm afraid. You made such a big deal about being accurate in your citations in the OP. Follow that up with page and paragraph citations for Corax being described as having feathers.


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## Moriouce

Lux said:


> *-First Heretic
> 
> -Ravens Flight
> 
> -Deliverance Lost*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entirely untrue, at the end of Shadows of treachery the Lion states that he has set course straight for Ultramar with the entirety of his legion. The Lion is planning to fight Guilliman, and if necessary kill him if he assesses him as a traitor who is conspiring for the throne.
> 
> *-Shadows of treachery*
> 
> 
> 
> Guillima asks the Lion how many warships, and astartes that Lion has brought with him to Ultramar. The Lion replies that he has with him just about the entirety of his legion, which he then states consists of about 20,000 astartes.
> 
> *-Unremembered Empire*


 @Lux

Please, you need to heed those who object to your statements. They ask for direct quotations. Not just a source. Cite what is written, page and book so they easily can look it up themselves. You can't just state that you know this and that from that book. Your own understanding is little proof, so is everyones else's when they argue back. But you Lux started this thread and you need to put your proof on the table first.


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## Lux

Moriouce said:


> @Lux
> 
> Please, you need to heed those who object to your statements. They ask for direct quotations. Not just a source. Cite what is written, page and book so they easily can look it up themselves. You can't just state that you know this and that from that book. Your own understanding is little proof, so is everyones else's when they argue back. But you Lux started this thread and you need to put your proof on the table first.


Your kindness, polite demeanor...and respect for me as a human entity has moved me deeply. I will heed your request, and do so.


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## Moriouce

Lux said:


> Your kindness, polite demeanor...and respect for me as a human entity has moved me deeply. I will heed your request, and do so.



You are welcome!


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> *Entirely untrue, at the end of Shadows of treachery the Lion states that he has set course straight for Ultramar with the entirety of his legion. The Lion is planning to fight Guilliman, and if necessary kill him if he assesses him as a traitor who is conspiring for the throne.
> -Shadows of treachery
> 
> Guillima asks the Lion how many warships, and astartes that Lion has brought with him to Ultramar. The Lion replies that he has with him just about the entirety of his legion, which he then states consists of about 20,000 astartes.
> -Unremembered Empire*


*

Incorrect

Unremembered Empire. Chapter 10.
"Beloved Corswain was commanding the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm."*


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> Incorrect
> 
> Unremembered Empire. Chapter 10.
> "Beloved Corswain was commanding the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm."


Corswain was commanding a *very* small fraction of what remained of the legion, in unremembered Empire the Lion told Guilliman that he had about the entirety of his legion with him.


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## emporershand89

Seems to me that you are all fans of Choas-panzy Primarchs because the novel writers make them to be invincible Gods of destruction. If that is so then why they no Masters of the Imperium of Man right now? Why do they sulk in their caves in the Warp or are tools for the pleasures of the Chaos Gods.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> Corswain was commanding a *very* small fraction of what remained of the legion, in unremembered Empire the Lion told Guilliman that he had about the entirety of his legion with him.


No he doesn't. Not once. Fuck why am I bothering again.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> No he doesn't. Not once. Fuck why am I bothering again.


Angel of Blood, you need to calm down. Once I get home I will get the sources to cite where the Lion states that he has almost his entire legion with him at ultramar, and that it is 20k marines.


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## Lux

emporershand89 said:


> Seems to me that you are all fans of Choas-panzy Primarchs because the novel writers make them to be invincible Gods of destruction. If that is so then why they no Masters of the Imperium of Man right now? Why do they sulk in their caves in the Warp or are tools for the pleasures of the Chaos Gods.


Curze is just the most powerful Primarch, he was designed to evolve beyond what the Emperor was and become even more powerful.


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## Words_of_Truth

Does anyone think that the one considered the weakest Primarch could of ended up being the most powerful i.e Lorgar.


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## Lux

Words_of_Truth said:


> Does anyone think that the one considered the weakest Primarch could of ended up being the most powerful i.e Lorgar.


I completely agree, I believe that the two most powerful primarchs were Konrad Curze and Lorgar.

Curze and Lorgar embodied the largest portions of the Emperor's soul.


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## hailene

Lux said:


> Curze and Lorgar embodied the largest portions of the Emperor's soul.


Actually, I think it's actually pretty clear in the fluff that when Lorgar had stumbled upon the Eye of Terror, the Emperor switched places with Lorgar.

The Emperor, now more knowledgeable about the existence of the True Gods, sought to over throw the Imperium in worship of them. Lorgar disagreed, and still heartily supported the idea of the Emperor as the only god worthy of worship.

Makes sense. I mean, how did Lorgar power up so suddenly?

Also, why was the "Emperor" so reluctant to see anyone on Terra...it was because "He" was actually Lorgar!

So I would agree, that "Lorgar" definitely held the largest portion of the Emperor's soul...since Heresy-era Lorgar was in fact the Emperor.

(Man, writing this junk is surprisingly easy. I know how Lux feels now.)


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## Nacho libre

hailene said:


> Actually, I think it's actually pretty clear in the fluff that when Lorgar had stumbled upon the Eye of Terror, the Emperor switched places with Lorgar.
> 
> The Emperor, now more knowledgeable about the existence of the True Gods, sought to over throw the Imperium in worship of them. Lorgar disagreed, and still heartily supported the idea of the Emperor as the only god worthy of worship.
> 
> Makes sense. I mean, how did Lorgar power up so suddenly?
> 
> Also, why was the "Emperor" so reluctant to see anyone on Terra...it was because "He" was actually Lorgar!
> 
> So I would agree, that "Lorgar" definitely held the largest portion of the Emperor's soul...since Heresy-era Lorgar was in fact the Emperor.
> 
> (Man, writing this junk is surprisingly easy. I know how Lux feels now.)


my mind just shat itself. thank you.:suicide:


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## Lux

Please everyone stay on topic, this thread is about respecting and or acknowledging the amazingness of Konrad Curze.


This Konrad Curze during the events of the "Dark King" novel/audio.


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## Einherjar667

-deleted-


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## emporershand89

Lux said:


> Curze is just the most powerful Primarch, he was designed to evolve beyond what the Emperor was and become even more powerful.


Sadly I must disagree mighty Lux; Savior of Mankind. I feel that Cruze, while powerful, is no more than an evolved product of the Gene experimentation that the Emperor was conducting. Any one of the Primarchs could have evolved in the same way, and it seems interesting to me to note how different Primarchs gradually evolved beyond their designed capabilities. 

All we need to do is look at Vulcan, or Horus, or Sanguinius and see how they evolved beyond their designs and became Ultra-Humans in a time of Super-Humans. It is my opinion, mind you, but I just cannot agree with Cruze being the most powerful. Besides he allowed himself to become the very thing he sought to destroy, and gave into the Assassin that eventually would take his life (if you believe the stories).


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## Scrad

That last Curze pic is a bit too Marilyn Manson'esque for my liking.


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## hailene

Lux said:


> Curze is just the most powerful Primarch


I disagree! Lorgar (in the guise of the Emperor) was able to control the Astronomican without any severe adverse effects...and he did this for FIVE DECADES. Remember, the Sigillite managed this for maybe a handful of hours before turning to DUST.

This would suggest his psychic might exceeds that of human capability...perhaps matching Magnus and the Emperor...with enough room to exceed them!

Also, it was Lorgar who blasted Horus into non-existence. True, Lorgar received many fatal wounds that led to his interment on the Golden Throne, but remember Horus was suped up on the power of four Chaos gods. Plus, Lorgar was probably holding back due to their brotherly bonds in the preceding years of the Great Crusade.

Even after his fight with Horus, Lorgar was still able to convince Dorn he was the Emperor, even wounded as he was. Lorgar's last whispered commands have kept the Imperium standing, with moments of great expansion, these past 10,000 years.

Surely there's no greater Primarch!

Physically, psychically, or even mentally, no one can hold a candle to the Urizen!


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## Scrad

Did Lorgar-cum-Emperor have any feathers, Hailene?


----------



## hailene

Scrad said:


> Did Lorgar-cum-Emperor have any feathers, Hailene?


Very possible. I would not put it past him. So far, we have seen no real limits to his psychic abilities.

I would hazard that at one point a Sister of Silence or another Blank has entered his presence since his fall. It would make sense that he actually _physically transformed_ into the likeness of the Emperor.

Given this new fact, I can say without a doubt that the Lorgar-Emperor could have had feathers...if he wanted.


----------



## revan4559

Lux said:


> Angel of Blood, you need to calm down. Once I get home I will get the sources to cite where the Lion states that he has almost his entire legion with him at ultramar, and that it is 20k marines.



Lux and AoB you are both right and wrong. Lux is correct that it is only 20k marines with and Angel of Blood is correct in that the Lion but the REST are with Corswain on the otherside of the galaxy fighting the night lords.

Lux you are thinking of it being Sanguinius who turns up with his ENTIRE legion in Unremembered Empire, not the Lion. So you are mixing up Sanguinius and the Lion when they speak of their respective legions.

And here is the page numbers for all of the above, Lux this is what you need to do when you post and say things like this.:

Unremembered Empire - Chapter Eighth, Page 107.

"The ship came out of the darkness, and within its darkness an endless hunt played out. It was a human ship, an imperial ship, a battleship, a flagship, but it was unnaturally propelled through the miasma of the warp by means whose origins and nature would have been deemed heretical to the machinesmiths and forgefathers of mankind. Behind the battle ship following in its way came its fleet. Within those storm battered hulls twenty thousand warriors awaited word of a destination, a safe haven. They were twenty thousand of the greatest warriors in the imperium. The were the First, and the First Among Equals."

Unremembered Empire - Page 163.

"The lion emerged from his lander stony-faced and bareheaded, his long golden hair trailing in the wind. So beautiful, so deadling, so empty so unreadable. He carried his war-helm under his left arm and marched with the same perfect discipline that his men displayed. To each side of him came his voted lieutenants in identical step. *Beloved Sorswain was command the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm, *so the Lion was braced by Holguin and Fairth Redloss."

Unremembered Empire - Page 178

"From Signus prime" Sanguinius Responded, His voice was, as ever, like music, but Guilliman could sense pain deep within it. "From a bloody fight and hard betrayal. I fear my fleet has been adrift in the warp for a long time since, and only your strange light has shown us our way out."

"What strength are you" asked The Lion.

"To all sensible purposes, my entire legion." Sanguinius Replied.


----------



## Angel of Blood

How am I wrong? And the others were left with Corswain to find Russ and tell all that has transpired, though they then split the rest of the Legion into their Orders to expand the search. Clearly at least one of the Orders were successful, as Russ says it was the First Legion that came to their aid against the Alpha Legion.


----------



## Nacho libre

Lux said:


> Please everyone stay on topic, this thread is about respecting and or acknowledging the amazingness of Konrad Curze.
> 
> 
> This Konrad Curze during the events of the "Dark King" novel/audio.


looks a bit weird, you know?. with those rapey eyes and creepy smile. pro tip when around this guy: clench.


----------



## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> How am I wrong? And the others were left with Corswain to find Russ and tell all that has transpired, though they then split the rest of the Legion into their Orders to expand the search. Clearly at least one of the Orders were successful, as Russ says it was the First Legion that came to their aid against the Alpha Legion.


Just accept that you were wrong angel of blood, and move on with your progression as an Imperial remembrancer. The pain will only worsen if you follow the path of Fulgrim with focuses upon false perfection, remember Angel of Blood that there is no such thing as perfection only ever lasting disdain.



revan4559 said:


> Lux and AoB you are both right and wrong. Lux is correct that it is only 20k marines with and Angel of Blood is correct in that the Lion but the REST are with Corswain on the otherside of the galaxy fighting the night lords.
> 
> Lux you are thinking of it being Sanguinius who turns up with his ENTIRE legion in Unremembered Empire, not the Lion. So you are mixing up Sanguinius and the Lion when they speak of their respective legions.
> 
> And here is the page numbers for all of the above, Lux this is what you need to do when you post and say things like this.:
> 
> Unremembered Empire - Chapter Eighth, Page 107.
> 
> "The ship came out of the darkness, and within its darkness an endless hunt played out. It was a human ship, an imperial ship, a battleship, a flagship, but it was unnaturally propelled through the miasma of the warp by means whose origins and nature would have been deemed heretical to the machinesmiths and forgefathers of mankind. Behind the battle ship following in its way came its fleet. Within those storm battered hulls twenty thousand warriors awaited word of a destination, a safe haven. They were twenty thousand of the greatest warriors in the imperium. The were the First, and the First Among Equals."
> 
> Unremembered Empire - Page 163.
> 
> "The lion emerged from his lander stony-faced and bareheaded, his long golden hair trailing in the wind. So beautiful, so deadling, so empty so unreadable. He carried his war-helm under his left arm and marched with the same perfect discipline that his men displayed. To each side of him came his voted lieutenants in identical step. *Beloved Sorswain was command the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm, *so the Lion was braced by Holguin and Fairth Redloss."
> 
> Unremembered Empire - Page 178
> 
> "From Signus prime" Sanguinius Responded, His voice was, as ever, like music, but Guilliman could sense pain deep within it. "From a bloody fight and hard betrayal. I fear my fleet has been adrift in the warp for a long time since, and only your strange light has shown us our way out."
> 
> "What strength are you" asked The Lion.
> 
> "To all sensible purposes, my entire legion." Sanguinius Replied.


Excellent Post Revan, I fully agree with your points and thank you for clarifying Angel of Bloods earlier errors while incorporating sources for me.


----------



## Lux

emporershand89 said:


> Sadly I must disagree mighty Lux; Savior of Mankind. I feel that Cruze, while powerful, is no more than an evolved product of the Gene experimentation that the Emperor was conducting. Any one of the Primarchs could have evolved in the same way, and it seems interesting to me to note how different Primarchs gradually evolved beyond their designed capabilities.
> 
> All we need to do is look at Vulcan, or Horus, or Sanguinius and see how they evolved beyond their designs and became Ultra-Humans in a time of Super-Humans. It is my opinion, mind you, but I just cannot agree with Cruze being the most powerful. Besides he allowed himself to become the very thing he sought to destroy, and gave into the Assassin that eventually would take his life (if you believe the stories).


Ah how right you are Emperorshand89, truly all of the primarchs are shards of infinite potential of which each is reflecting a different spectrum of light. All of the primarchs are capable of near infinite heights, evolutionary greatness, and the ability to transcend the Emperor.

Curze for example had gained mastery of reality itself, he was able to see every outcome of reality possible and actively choose which one would happen next. Was he perfect in this? Not yet but he was becoming increasingly so with each passing moment, as seen in "Unremembered Empire". Curze had gained the ability to shape the very essence of reality, such as when Curze needed explosives to appear all around him in order to kill the Lion and Guilliman. Thus Curze imagined it in his minds eye and saw it, of which then grenades were strapped to every inch of the church. 

Contrastingly Guilliman equally as infinite as Curze had manifested the power of auditing, and thus transcended the Emperor in regards to accounting abilities. Guilliman could see every financial sheet across the Imperium simultaneously, he could balance finances in a fraction of a picto second. Because of this Guilliman was able to raise an Empire unlike any other, one built upon solid financial practices and flawless auditing to ensure effective controls were in place.

The Lion on the other hand had gained the power of delusion, he was able to at will enter himself into a deep self-consuming delusion. In particular the Lion was able to convince himself that he was an ancient colonial English hunter, and that all his enemies were his quarry. This allowed the Lion to gain the skills, expertise, and grit of an ancient colonial English hunter. He used this self-consuming delusion increasingly as the heresy went on, however he went so deep into his delusion that he eventually lost his connection with reality and fell into a coma. This is why he was entombed in the "Rock", because he never woke from his colonial English huntsman dream where he forever hunts his brothers as an assortment of animals.


----------



## gothik

is actually begining to wonder if Lux is David Icke...with the wierd and wacky threads......


----------



## Lux

gothik said:


> is actually begining to wonder if Lux is David Icke...with the wierd and wacky threads......


Not sure who that is.

However, as I sit here conducting financial analysis upon several balance sheets/income statements I do so ponder something in particular. When one conducts financial analysis as well as auditing procedures, is one in fact channeling the very conceptual construct of that which is Guilliman?


----------



## gothik

David Icke was a british TV Sports presenter most notably on Grandstand back in the 1980s....since then he declaired himself to be the son of god and other such wierd things since....and a little over zealous in his words.

with all due respect i am not about to compare my day to day life with a fictional character and little plastic models.


----------



## Lux

gothik said:


> David Icke was a british TV Sports presenter most notably on Grandstand back in the 1980s....since then he declaired himself to be the son of god and other such wierd things since....and a little over zealous in his words.
> 
> with all due respect i am not about to compare my day to day life with a fictional character and little plastic models.


You do not dream of great wars, and inter dimensional disasters? Every night I dream of such disaster, destruction, and doom. 

You do not dream of the primarchs in battle, witnessing countless worlds locked in war as the primarchs "liberate" them? I weep for you.


----------



## gothik

weep for me as much as you like, I like the idea of the warhammer world, both 40K and Fantasy, but when i close the book that is how it is, i do not dream of any such thing, and whilst i like Konrad Curze and find him an interesting character i do not lawd him above all others.....and why am i even bothering?

Lux you are either a very clever wordplayer who takes the shit and turns it into something totally bizarre and crazy or you just thrive on controversy, either way i am done.


----------



## Lux

gothik said:


> weep for me as much as you like, I like the idea of the warhammer world, both 40K and Fantasy, but when i close the book that is how it is, i do not dream of any such thing, and whilst i like Konrad Curze and find him an interesting character i do not lawd him above all others.....and why am i even bothering?
> 
> Lux you are either a very clever wordplayer who takes the shit and turns it into something totally bizarre and crazy or you just thrive on controversy, either way i am done.


It is so very odd that you do not dream of the primarchs, I find them to be archetypes of human nature. Social constructs embodying particular aspects of the spectrum of human ideals, fears, and disappointments. 

While I am awake I witness luminescent lightning irradiate my surroundings, and at other times I perceive living shades of darkness shrouding my being.

I have dreamed of Konrad Curze as well as other several other primarchs sieging an earth like world, as they search for the Emperor who was separated from them in battle. It was beautiful for it had such meaning, such significance in their very existence. It brings me joy to know that they are free of the mundane, not doomed to experience the deep despair of never ending drear. Even if humanity is worth nothing, at least they embody the hope of what humanity can one day be. More importantly they represent the significance that humanity can one day hold.


----------



## Nacho libre

Bend over...


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> Just accept that you were wrong angel of blood, and move on with your progression as an Imperial remembrancer. The pain will only worsen if you follow the path of Fulgrim with focuses upon false perfection, remember Angel of Blood that there is no such thing as perfection only ever lasting disdain.
> 
> Excellent Post Revan, I fully agree with your points and thank you for clarifying Angel of Bloods earlier errors while incorporating sources for me.


This is now a warning Lux. Cut that shit out right now.


----------



## revan4559

Angel of Blood said:


> This is now a warning Lux. Cut that shit out right now.


Now that ive re-read the stuff, i dont see any errors in Angel of Blood's logic, sorry about that AoB! Am i forgiven?


----------



## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> This is now a warning Lux. Cut that shit out right now.


I was going to argue with you but it would be pointless, I'll just say that I am sorry and that I was wrong.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> and that I was wrong.


About Corax having feathers? Still waiting on the citation for that one.


----------



## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> About Corax having feathers? Still waiting on the citation for that one.


Stating I was wrong was merely done to avoid having a pointless argument with angel of blood, who was imposing a threat with his modship over a disagreement on the fluff. It was getting to the point that Angel of Blood's threat caused Revan to turn heel and admit he was wrong, when he was zealous in his conviction that Angel of blood was wrong. No point in arguing with that, it wasn't over fluff anymore just ego.

Not about the feathers that is entirely true, even Guilliman touched on it in Unremembered Empire referencing Corax as our "Feathery friend".

Also in Deliverance Lost when the scientist are analyzing the gene samples given by the Emperor they note that each sample is unique, that one has wolf dna, bird like, one is missing growth hormones, one is made with no pain receptor.


----------



## Angel of Blood

No you're being a dick and you know it, everyone knows it. And Ego? I provided you with an exact quote, with chapter references, what I said is utterly indisputable, Corswain has multiple orders with him, left under his command by the Lion. And yet would you look at that, you continue to insist that the Lion has his entire Legion with him at Macragge and therefore insist that Curze destroyed 60,000 Astartes.

You cannot prove what you've said, you cannot disprove what I have said. Everyone knows it, some people are indulging you like they would a child, others are getting exasperated, more are ignoring you and some are getting outright annoyed.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> Not about the feathers that is entirely true, even Guilliman touched on it in Unremembered Empire referencing Corax as our "Feathery friend".
> 
> Also in Deliverance Lost when the scientist are analyzing the gene samples given by the Emperor they note that each sample is unique, that one has wolf dna, bird like


Neither of these describes Corax as having feathers. Calling him a feathery friend has more to do with the fact he commands the _Raven Guard_. In any BL product that he features in there has never been a third person physical description of him having feathers, as you stated he had, and used a piece of fan art to try and prove. 

AoB has caught you out in a mistake, as have I. An intellect as superior as yours should know that admitting a mistake is the best way to handle this situation. We can all then move along and leave you to your wankfest.


----------



## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> No you're being a dick and you know it, everyone knows it. And Ego? I provided you with an exact quote, with chapter references, what I said is utterly indisputable, Corswain has multiple orders with him, left under his command by the Lion. And yet would you look at that, you continue to insist that the Lion has his entire Legion with him at Macragge and therefore insist that Curze destroyed 60,000 Astartes.
> 
> You cannot prove what you've said, you cannot disprove what I have said. Everyone knows it, some people are indulging you like they would a child, others are getting exasperated, more are ignoring you and some are getting outright annoyed.


Then tell me angel of blood why do you continue to post in this thread if you have no care for it? I stated that Curze destroyed a majority of the Dark Angels fleet during the thramas crusade. 

This is supported by several facts from the fluff, the first is that at the end of shadows of treachery the Lion states to have the legion head for Ultramar in order to deal with Guilliman if he has turned traitor. The Lion knows that Ultramar is heavily defended, and is home to the very large Ultramarines legion. The Lion at this point also believes that Guilliman is conspiring for the throne, and actively believes that he is as traitorous as Horus. It was not until the end of Unremembered Empire that the Lion admits that he then believes that Guilliman was not a traitor.

The Lion would not, and did not hand a majority of the Legion to Corswain because the Lion needed near the full might of his legion to fight and kill Guilliman's legion in their home star system. The lion clearly stated that he had 20k astartes with him, and we know that the lion intended to bring his legion with him not a small fraction of it. Corwswain did have a piece of the legion, if you want to be precisely exact he had one order with him. Which at this point in the fluff would mean he had 1/6th of the legion with him. 

So even if we assume that the lion suffered 0 losses during the thramas crusade, (which is silly as it is stated that the dark angels suffered a loss for every victory they achieved prior to the ambush) then the Lion would have had 5/6's of the legion with him at Ultramar. This means that if we go by what is stated in the fluff for legion sizes the dark angels would have been about 150,000, 5/6's of that would 125,000 astartes. The Lion states that he had about 20,000 marines with him when he arrived in force at Ultramar, which means Curze eliminated 105,000 (125,000-20,000) dark angel marines at the bare minimum during the Thramas Crusade. However, it is far more likely that Curze eliminated even more dark angel astartes than that due to that we know they did suffer an equal number of strategic losses during that war, this then means that Corswains 1/5th of the legion would be less than 25,000 due to losses.

So Yes Angel of Blood it is about Ego for you, you didn't like that multiple users told you that you were wrong in their opinion. This ruffled your feathers and you retaliated by threatening with a mod statement (red text reserved for mods only), yet your warning was completely unjustified and only executed because you were emotionally hurt.

For the record you were wrong (my opinion, I am entitled to that), and other users (who I wont name but we all know if we read the thread) thought you were wrong to. It was only when you issued a warning as a mod that they apologized, please be more mature angel of blood. Am I going to get warned/banned for this post too? Guess I can't have an opinion of you being wrong.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> This ruffled your feathers...


Shit, AoB has feathers now as well?


----------



## Nacho libre

Khorne's Fist said:


> Shit, AoB has feathers now as well?


What else has feathers?.:laugh:


----------



## Lux

Nacho libre said:


> What else has feathers?.:laugh:


Primarily just Corax, and the Crowfen sons of his that were mutated due to the Alpha Legion involvement.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Wow, you actually posted, if only vaguely sources. Progress. But no, Corswain had more than one order with him. And no, you were wrong, you claimed that the Lion told Guilliman that he had his entire Legion with him. He says this at no point. You're correct in that he has 20k Astartes with him, but he never once says his entire Legion, Sanguinius however, does. When you(and Revan) said I was wrong, I hadn't even mentioned how many men Corswain had with him, only that you're quote about the Lion, was false, and that Corswain had men with him, ergo, not the entire Legion went to Ultramar.

Let's break it down more simply.

*What you said:*


> Guillima asks the Lion how many warships, and astartes that Lion has brought with him to Ultramar. The Lion replies that he has with him just about the entirety of his legion, which he then states consists of about 20,000 astartes.
> -Unremembered Empire"


This is incorrect, as I said, the Lion never once says he has his entire Legion with him, only the number.



> Corswain was commanding a very small fraction of what remained of the legion, in unremembered Empire the Lion told Guilliman that he had about the entirety of his legion with him.


Same as above. Nothing is ever mentioned of how small Corswains force is, but it is several orders.

*What I said.*


> Unremembered Empire. Chapter 10.
> "Beloved Corswain was commanding the First Legion elements on the other side of the Ruinstorm."


Which is correct, hence, not the entire Legion is at Ultramar.

Despite what Revan originally said. Nothing I said there was incorrect. Nothing. You claimed the Lion said he had his whole legion with him, he doesn't, find me a direct quote that says otherwise, because I combed through the novel to find it, and it isn't there. I also said Corswain had elements of the Legion with him, via a direct quote from the novel. Again, this is all true, nothing there is wrong.

Nothing in the warning was aimed at Revan, look back, it's not a matter of opinion if I am right or wrong. It's fact, I've proved it with quotes. It doesn't get any more factual than that. 

Your assumptions about how many Curze eliminated is utter speculation, there is nothing to say how many men Corswain had, other than he has an unspecified number of orders under his command, which he then splits apart again, taking just one order with him. You are assuming Curze killed all the others that aren't with the Lion. That's fine, make assumptions, speculate, we all do. But don't say it's fact, don't cite it as reasons for Curze being awesome without stating that it is only speculation. 

I'll find the direct quotes if you would like, that states Corswain has more than one Order with him after the Lion departed for Ultramar. Why won't you do the same for Khornes Fist or others? If you just provided just one direct quote on anything you claim, people would take you more seriously and not get annoyed with you. But you won't, you just dodge the questions or ignore them. 

That last post there, is the closest I have ever seen you to making a proper reasoned post. But you still lack any sort of quotes or citations. 

So no, it's still not ego. Explain why I was wrong regarding what Revan said. Show me the direct quote of the Lion saying he has his whole legion, and disprove other elements of the Legion are with Corswain.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Khorne's Fist said:


> Shit, AoB has feathers now as well?


Nope, I have scales actually. Hydra bitches.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Angel of Blood said:


> Nope, I have scales actually.


I'm gonna need proof. Page and paragraph.:grin:


----------



## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm gonna need proof. Page and paragraph.:grin:


Agreed, if you are teaching about proper citation then you should be leading by example. Thus as Khorne's fist stated, page and paragraph please.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> Agreed, if you are teaching about proper citation then you should be leading by example. Thus as Khorne's fist stated, page and paragraph please.


Still waiting on the same from you for the feathers proof. Don't know why, you'll just ignore this post and keep trolling, and thinking you're playing a funny little game with the lower intellects you choose to try and enlighten. When in fact all you're being is a massive dick. Nothing new there though.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Pg 945, Paragraph 8 of my book 'Why I'm fucking awesome and how I always win'. Balls in your court now.


----------



## Lux

Khorne's Fist said:


> Still waiting on the same from you for the feathers proof. Don't know why, you'll just ignore this post and keep trolling, and thinking you're playing a funny little game with the lower intellects you choose to try and enlighten. When in fact all you're being is a massive dick. Nothing new there though.


The state of being a "dick" is entirely subjective, and heavily depends upon the societal norms as well as expectations of a particular environment. Furthermore, to perceive another entity as a "dick" speaks volumes of that individuals own self perceived character. For it demonstrates what they define as "dick like", and more importantly demonstrates their conviction in that they believe they know what is as well as what is not a "dick".

Overall your statement highlights your own "dick like" behavioral patterns more so than anything else, labeling another as such only projects characteristics of your own self.



Angel of Blood said:


> Pg 945, Paragraph 8 of my book 'Why I'm fucking awesome and how I always win'. Balls in your court now.


I read the book "Why I'm fucking awesome and how I always win" of which the author was too consumed in their own hubris to present any objectively based argument, and or effectively persuade their target audience. Overall a 2/10, an entertaining read if you like irony and have free time to spare.

Angel of Blood can't we all just get along? Can't we all just acknowledge the superiority of Konrad Curze, and agree in peace?


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Lux said:


> The state of being a "dick" is entirely subjective, and heavily depends upon the societal norms as well as expectations of a particular environment. Furthermore, to perceive another entity as a "dick" speaks volumes of that individuals own self perceived character. For it demonstrates what they define as "dick like", and more importantly demonstrates their conviction in that they believe they know what is as well as what is not a "dick".


Still no citation...



Lux said:


> Overall your statement highlights your own "dick like" behavioral patterns more so than anything else,


What can I say, you bring out the worst of me.


----------



## gothik

Lux said:


> The state of being a "dick" is entirely subjective, and heavily depends upon the societal norms as well as expectations of a particular environment. Furthermore, to perceive another entity as a "dick" speaks volumes of that individuals own self perceived character. For it demonstrates what they define as "dick like", and more importantly demonstrates their conviction in that they believe they know what is as well as what is not a "dick".
> 
> Overall your statement highlights your own "dick like" behavioral patterns more so than anything else, labeling another as such only projects characteristics of your own self.
> 
> 
> 
> I read the book "Why I'm fucking awesome and how I always win" of which the author was too consumed in their own hubris to present any objectively based argument, and or effectively persuade their target audience. Overall a 2/10, an entertaining read if you like irony and have free time to spare.
> 
> Angel of Blood can't we all just get along? Can't we all just acknowledge the superiority of Konrad Curze, and agree in peace?


seeing as you are so hyped over people providing proof, then provide the proof that Corax had feathers, instead of deflecting the question to what other people are saying. You say about people needing to back thier words up, and are quick off the mark when the shoe is on the other foot but now you are deflecting away from it.

AOB has already stated the quote direct from Unremembered Empire, he has stated facts with citations to back up his words, you however are refusing to show a page or a paragraph that backs up what you are saying either on the Corax feathers, you have not backed up your claims about the Lion, instead preferring someone else to do the leg work whilst you sit back and take the acculade. 

You seem ready to berate others for being aggressive, but in reality you post remarks that will make people retaliate in that way. AoB had every right to mark that in red, he had not reacted to your posts, so to continue the arguement you pick up on a quote and then decide to use his name to continue an arguement that you are unable to win. 

You are continually delfecting Khornes Fist and AoB questions to continue your arguement so it looks like you are being ganged up on. Either be the bigger person and admit that you can't or someone lock the thread cause you are content to have peoples hackles up and its getting aggivating.


----------



## scscofield

scscofield said:


> If you people do not like Lux 's threads then stay out of them. No one is forcing you people to be douchebags.


.....


----------



## Lux

gothik said:


> seeing as you are so hyped over people providing proof, then provide the proof that Corax had feathers, instead of deflecting the question to what other people are saying. You say about people needing to back thier words up, and are quick off the mark when the shoe is on the other foot but now you are deflecting away from it.
> 
> AOB has already stated the quote direct from Unremembered Empire, he has stated facts with citations to back up his words, you however are refusing to show a page or a paragraph that backs up what you are saying either on the Corax feathers, you have not backed up your claims about the Lion, instead preferring someone else to do the leg work whilst you sit back and take the acculade.
> 
> You seem ready to berate others for being aggressive, but in reality you post remarks that will make people retaliate in that way. AoB had every right to mark that in red, he had not reacted to your posts, so to continue the arguement you pick up on a quote and then decide to use his name to continue an arguement that you are unable to win.
> 
> You are continually delfecting Khornes Fist and AoB questions to continue your arguement so it looks like you are being ganged up on. Either be the bigger person and admit that you can't or someone lock the thread cause you are content to have peoples hackles up and its getting aggivating.


Your post and its very content only functions to incite further aggression in the population of Heresy forums, you should be ashamed of your devious actions.

Please do not derail this thread any further with your intentions to incite conflict gothik, thank you.

Now to put this thread back on track, let us applaud Konrad Curze for yet another on of his amazing accomplishments, being the most intimidating of all the primarchs.


----------



## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> Wow, you actually posted, if only vaguely sources. Progress. But no, Corswain had more than one order with him. And no, you were wrong, you claimed that the Lion told Guilliman that he had his entire Legion with him. He says this at no point. You're correct in that he has 20k Astartes with him, but he never once says his entire Legion, Sanguinius however, does. When you(and Revan) said I was wrong, I hadn't even mentioned how many men Corswain had with him, only that you're quote about the Lion, was false, and that Corswain had men with him, ergo, not the entire Legion went to Ultramar.
> 
> Let's break it down more simply.
> 
> *What you said:*
> 
> This is incorrect, as I said, the Lion never once says he has his entire Legion with him, only the number.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above. Nothing is ever mentioned of how small Corswains force is, but it is several orders.
> 
> *What I said.*
> 
> 
> Which is correct, hence, not the entire Legion is at Ultramar.
> 
> Despite what Revan originally said. Nothing I said there was incorrect. Nothing. You claimed the Lion said he had his whole legion with him, he doesn't, find me a direct quote that says otherwise, because I combed through the novel to find it, and it isn't there. I also said Corswain had elements of the Legion with him, via a direct quote from the novel. Again, this is all true, nothing there is wrong.
> 
> Nothing in the warning was aimed at Revan, look back, it's not a matter of opinion if I am right or wrong. It's fact, I've proved it with quotes. It doesn't get any more factual than that.
> 
> Your assumptions about how many Curze eliminated is utter speculation, there is nothing to say how many men Corswain had, other than he has an unspecified number of orders under his command, which he then splits apart again, taking just one order with him. You are assuming Curze killed all the others that aren't with the Lion. That's fine, make assumptions, speculate, we all do. But don't say it's fact, don't cite it as reasons for Curze being awesome without stating that it is only speculation.
> 
> I'll find the direct quotes if you would like, that states Corswain has more than one Order with him after the Lion departed for Ultramar. Why won't you do the same for Khornes Fist or others? If you just provided just one direct quote on anything you claim, people would take you more seriously and not get annoyed with you. But you won't, you just dodge the questions or ignore them.
> 
> That last post there, is the closest I have ever seen you to making a proper reasoned post. But you still lack any sort of quotes or citations.
> 
> So no, it's still not ego. Explain why I was wrong regarding what Revan said. Show me the direct quote of the Lion saying he has his whole legion, and disprove other elements of the Legion are with Corswain.


You are assuming you are correct and that I am incorrect, yet no where in the lore does it state that Corswain held a majority of the legion. It is entirely rational and logical to assume that the Lion would have the majority of his legion to ultramar, this is because the Lion clearly states at the end of shadows of treachery that he is going to ultramar to potentially kill Guilliman if he assesses him as a traitor. 

You are guessing that Corswain had more than 20,000 astartes with him, you have nothing to back up how many astartes he had with him. The fluff favors the notion that the Lion took with him the majority of his legion to Ultramar to make war with Guilliman, which means Corswain had less than 20,000 marines with him.

Ultimately this means that Konrad Curze killed over 110,000 dark angel space marines during the thramas crusade (Lion has 20,000 while Corswain has less than 20,000 thus a total of less than 40,000 dark angels alive.)


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## Serpion5

Three times in a circle and we're losing traction. Okay. We're done. 

Closed.


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