# Grey knight codex= bland?



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Well colour me disappointed, I have never really had any strong feelings towards the grey knight as a chapter, i used to own a number of the original models from back in the realm of chaos days and i didnt think much of the daemon hunters codex or the range of models other than the 3 or 4 metal terminators were nice enough and so were the marines but on the whole i thought the army lacked variety.


Well after reading the new codex i pretty much feel the same way, apart from the dreadknight, its not much to get excited about, very little if anything new as far as i can see and the list lacks loads of possibilities that could have been included.

the thing i think im most disapointed about is the lack of future releases for the codex, the "norm" for other codex much to the dismay of many players is to include codex entries for future wave release models, granted to some that will be a blessing but i have always been of the mind that im in this for the long haul so i want to buy stuff for my army in the future,i get the feeling that the codex was knocked out pretty quickly and the models were almost just a straight swap to save on production costs, the model kits are great and full of great stuff and detail but they are marines after all and nothing on the sprues of the termiantors or marines is really cutting edge.

the only area i can possibly see future model released are in the warrior accolyte/henchmen area but past that i think the army is pretty well represented model wise and the codex is just a rehash and jiggle to bring it up to date.


Im not saying it cant win games or goes against its fluff, i just think the army could have been expanded on more as i expect the grey knights to turn up to battle with things other chapters only dream of, missed opportunity to add character and make some original models in my opinion.



on the flip side the three new plastic kits are excellent, the dread knight is far more complicated than i gave it credit for, the legs alone take up almost an entire sprue as they are in so many parts, its one of the few kits i have had to open out the instructions to work out how to assemble it and in turn divide it up into its component parts, GW have also been very clever and made its weapons modular, also very detailed and multi part, i was also impressed as the model has some very good articulation though i think the arms could have been better, he legs,torso and weapons are exellent but the arms and pilot are not great but do work well enough.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I felt much the same.

I'm happy for it though. No waiting around to see what comes out in the second wave, realise it's all shit, and curse for not starting sooner.

I hate the Dreadknight - the SM Ven Dread kit has to be my favourite in the new range though. Joking aside, there's plenty of scope for improvement and kit bash between the other SM ranges. Marneus Calgar will be used in my army as a GK GM, etc.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Matt Ward can't write worth shit is my problem with the codex. He writes like a 16 year old kid trying to explain what his favorite guys are like; he makes them seem so over the fucking top awesome that one wouldn't be surprised if the next sentence included a snippet on how they can jizz lightning as fuck thunder. 

However, the rules seem fine and most of it seems fairly balanced.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i can see many people making plastic converted librarians for there armies using the kits, and i can see huge swathes of grey knight parts been used to convert standard marines to veterans and such.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Matt Ward can't write worth shit is my problem with the codex. He writes like a 16 year old kid trying to explain what his favorite guys are like; he makes them seem so over the fucking top awesome that one wouldn't be surprised if the next sentence included a snippet on how they can jizz lightning as fuck thunder.
> 
> However, the rules seem fine and most of it seems fairly balanced.


To be honest i never really pay much attention to who wrote the codex, i dont think they have that much freedom with the brief, i will say though its the numbers that get me, i was reading about the training of a grey knight and basically its like 1 in a million recruits that becomes a knight and the rest if i read it right die? (if i read it right) well why do they have to die? couldnt they just fail? its always the same when it comes to numbers and imperial fluff, pluck a large number of of thin air and tht will do, death isnt that grim dark when the lives of most people are shite anyway,it would be far worse if the failed trainees were forced to become Asda/Walmart night shift workers.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> To be honest i never really pay much attention to who wrote the codex, i dont think they have that much freedom with the brief, i will say though its the numbers that get me, i was reading about the training of a grey knight and basically its like 1 in a million recruits that becomes a knight and the rest if i read it right die? (if i read it right) well why do they have to die? couldnt they just fail? its always the same when it comes to numbers and imperial fluff, pluck a large number of of thin air and tht will do, death isnt that grim dark when the lives of most people are shite anyway,it would be far worse if the failed trainees were forced to become Asda/Walmart night shift workers.


im with you here, the authors name is irrelevent to my enjoyment of a codex/book. if its good its good, you know? also theres the amount of freedom a breif will give, being a concept artist in uni, im having to get used to this very quickly. often the writer of the breif will already have an idea of what they want, they just someone to actualy 'do' it.

maybe their bland aftertaste could be down to, after you get past the fact they are bread to kill deamons, there isnt much too them. they are a group made for once purpose, and specialise in it. kind of like micheal cera, hes bred to be the nrevous white geeky kid, thats his sole purpose/talent, you tire of that and your tired of micheal cera 

the 1 in 1million this is probably to emphisise how unimagionably big the entire imperium is. we, with out 6/7billion fellow humans cant posably fathom sacrificing 1million people to find one person. but in this fictional future where billions could be commited to a single battle, 1 million casulties doesnt seem like alot.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Tbh, it adds to the "mystique". For example, if going for SF training and you fail, you are RTU'd - returned to unit. There you get the shit ripped out of you, and then you tell them of all the techniques and skills you learned.

Killing them is a practical way, I suppose of keeping some secrets secret, while, death sounds a bit more final than "get fit and reapply in 24 months".


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Tbh, it adds to the "mystique". For example, if going for SF training and you fail, you are RTU'd - returned to unit. There you get the shit ripped out of you, and then you tell them of all the techniques and skills you learned.
> 
> Killing them is a practical way, I suppose of keeping some secrets secret, while, death sounds a bit more final than "get fit and reapply in 24 months".


true, tho i was under the impression the training killed them, not the imperium. all to keep secrets


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Im not so arsed about them getting killed, its the its so hard you will die trying bollocks, a million lives to get one dude is a waste, they should be better at selecting in my opinion lol, plus who would want the job?, its like being on the apprentice with a million other people and Alan sugar wants you to be the best, but the job at the end is fighting the horrors of the warp until certain death or getting killed to qualify, if the grey knight recruiters came to my home planet i would hide in the shed till they piss off.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

even if they promised you free cookies?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Alsojames said:


> even if they promised you free cookies?


they could promise me 10 minutes alone with megan fox and i would still stay in my shed


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't dislike the writing simply because it is written by Ward, rather, I dislike the writing because it is poor writing.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

i cant imagine many recruits being volunteers, after all, how do you sign up for an organisation you dont know exist. 

all these trainees were probably abducted. like most chapters, from tribal worlds. they will be champions that have a reputation of being the best on a planet, then et abducted by the grey knights as he 'might have what it takes'

it says in the gk that they have no recolection of their lives before their training, so whos to say really? 

life is cheap in the 41st millenium. the rate of attrition is probably higher in the imperial guard to be honest, since the average life expectancy is 15 hours for a guardsman


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> they could promise me 10 minutes alone with megan fox and i would still stay in my shed


What about a combination of the two?


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> What about a combination of the two?


10 minutes, megan fox in my shed? thats just asking for an ass full of splinters


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

the-ad-man said:


> 10 minutes, megan fox in my shed? thats just asking for an ass full of splinters


I was obviously talking about Megan Fox with cookies, why you jump to the shed conclusion when that combination(cookies and sexy chick) was up in the air is beyond me. :laugh:


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I was obviously talking about Megan Fox with cookies, why you jump to the shed conclusion when that combination(cookies and sexy chick) was up in the air is beyond me. :laugh:


what can i say? i love my shed  haha


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I'm sorry, any background which includes the line (and i paraphrase because i can't be bothered to type the whole thing); 'Some Grey Knights are so psychically powerful they can resist Death itself' just smacks of teenage fan-fiction. 

The fact is without juxtaposition things quickly become boring. While normal marines are capable of all too human failings, Grey Knights are so pure they burn daemons just by looking at them, their teeth are probably all perfectly straight and white, and their shit can be used as air freshener. Where's the fun in perfection? It leaves much less scope for the player to individualise their army.

And the DreadKnight still looks like a Transformer with a baby pouch. The concept is good, but the design could've been much better.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Yeah, perfection is boring.
Fair enough they are "Elite", but every army should have flaws (from a fluff perspective, not gaming).
An armies goal is to try to use their strengths and avoid their weakness.
If an army has no weakness then it has nothing to achieve, besides the *pointless* objective of killing an unlimited number of Daemons.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

surely their imperfection is that there are only 1000 of them, desporately fighing on all fronts without the manpower to truely prevail?

i havent read much of the codex (just the rules bits) so i dont know how 'rah rah unstoppable killing machine' they are said to be in this codex


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I wasn't disappointed at all by the new GK fluff. I assume anything written by Ward will be complete and utter fanboy shit, that way I'm never disappointed and one day I may even get excited about something he writes.

Grokfog and KingOfCheese have gone straight to the heart of the matter for me. I often find that an armies weaknesses are the most interesting part of it. Sure, the Imperial Guard have kick-ass tanks, but I find that the lowly and poorly equipped guardsman facing off against the horrors of the universe to be a much more interesting concept.

The Eldar's arrogance and self-proclaimed superiority, the self destructive nature of Chaos, and the utter mindlessness and lack of individuality of the Necrons and Tyranids, just to name a few. These are what I really enjoy reading about in the 40k fluff, not how Calgar tea-bagged 30 Bloodthirsters.

An army (and characters too) without weakness is boring and one-dimensional.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Exactly. Take for instance the portrayal of Alaric in the Grey Knights novels by Ben Counter. The main character is pure, but resists chaos through his formidable willpower and faith, yet has the fear that he may be the first Grey Knight to fall to chaos. By confronting that fear and using it to drive himself onwards, he reaches the level of purity and force of will necessary to defeat anything against him. His purity is less of an aspect of him from before he was born, and more a shield built up through training, faith, willpower and the harnessing of his human emotions. Thus you make a character worth taking note of. The latest background seems to state that Grey Knights are pure 'Cos we say they are' rather than because they sacrifice everything that makes them human and reinforce that through unwavering faith, discipline and willpower hardened through unimaginable training and hardship.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I think what I rolled my eyes about the most was how silly GW did some stuff.

A). Lets do an Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos Inq, without giving them their troops!

The GK have always been since RT days an Ordo Malleus their to fight the demon. I applaud GW for actually bothering to adknowledge the Ordo Xenos for the first time in forever.... but to do so, and not have to say Corteaz is actually an Ordo Xenos for this game or give the ability to field sternguardish type Marines amazes me! It would have been 2 entries on the list, which could have increased sales dramatically for them.

They have the Deathwatch stuff already sitting there ready... they could have easily said, special Inq character... can take this or that as troop types only. Cannot use GK...

2). Really disapointed of the lack of Inq love. Although this really falls to the part of some of us love the idea of Inq armies a lot as a second army and not just grey knights. Coteaz is a nice choice... but really? thats all we have to use? And then create what ammounts to be IG veterans that have orange monkeys hanging about to add flavour? Doesn't sit well, and for a design process, could have been handled better and increased sales of the stormies and cadian stuff that is sitting there already.


3). Lack of another troop type! GK are elite, but surely some one could have come up with something better than just flavors of GK to take.


Oh well, end rant.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Grokfog said:


> The latest background seems to state that Grey Knights are pure 'Cos we say they are' rather than because they sacrifice everything that makes them human and reinforce that through unwavering faith, discipline and willpower hardened through unimaginable training and hardship.


What? it says right on page 9 of the codex that:



> Most important of all, he must preform the many Rituals of Detestation that will harden his heart against the whispered temptations of Chaos.


It doesn't sound to me like they were born pure, but rather molded to resist the power of chaos.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> What? it says right on page 9 of the codex that:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound to me like they were born pure, but rather molded to resist the power of chaos.


Yes, and in the very next line it states 'To wade in the stuff of damnation and walk away without the slightest blemish on the soul requires the most resolute will AND THE PUREST HEART'

Or did you miss that bit?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm going to do this again and put something in bold:



> Most important of all, he must preform the many Rituals of Detestation *that will harden his heart* against the whispered temptations of Chaos.


Considering what you quoted comes after my quote it's a safe bet that they are not deemed pure until their trials are over and they have recited all the required rituals.

I think you're talking the term Pure of Heart in the wrong way, as plenty of evidence shows that the Grey Knights are forged to be the way they are, as opposed to being born that way.


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## razcalking (Jul 14, 2008)

Ignoring fluff, it is a rather bland Codex. Some interesting new abilities (the teleport shunt, some of the psychic powers), but nothing truly new like Power From Pain. Basically an entire army of combat librarians, which is fun enough if nothing mind-bending.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> I'm going to do this again and put something in bold:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it was possible to 'forge' recruits to be pure, don't you think their intake would be higher than 1 in a million? The body can be trained, willpower can be strengthened, but the soul is either corruptible or its not. Nothing changes that, all that can be changed is how hard it is to corrupt.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I think most of the problems with Grey Knights are with the fluff and aesthetics. The appearance of the units all seem either bland or ridiculous (techno monkeys and robots with the pilot strapped to the outside?).

The rules are all pretty well balanced though, with great powers and shooting balanced by higher costs, making them a more 'elite' brand of marines.

I'm not impressed by the Dreadknight either. It's a good close combat unit, but virtually every unit in the army is great in close combat. You're much better off with Dreads and Purgation squads for your heavy support slots, to give you more anti-vehicle shooting.

Inquisitors and Inquisitorial henchmen are nice, but I have a feeling that virtually everyone who uses them will be using Corteaz, rather than any other type of inquisitor.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Grokfog said:


> If it was possible to 'forge' recruits to be pure, don't you think their intake would be higher than 1 in a million? The body can be trained, willpower can be strengthened, but the soul is either corruptible or its not. Nothing changes that, all that can be changed is how hard it is to corrupt.


No. You can't train a 5'2" tall person with a bum leg to be a championship runner. It takes a truly exceptional individual to even be inducted into the ranks of the Grey Knights in the first place. You need to be championship material to become a champion.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> No. You can't train a 5'2" tall person with a bum leg to be a championship runner. It takes a truly exceptional individual to even be inducted into the ranks of the Grey Knights in the first place. You need to be championship material to become a champion.


I belive this is what Hitler thought about with his concept of a perfect human race. Yes? I mean I belive Almost ANYONE (Minus Down Syndrom, Paralegics, and Coma Victims) can be forged into a champ if they want it enough. Like Chief Brashear in Men of Honor. He lost his Leg and YET he was still better than most on RUNS. Why? Cause he wanted it. Im just saying....


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> No. You can't train a 5'2" tall person with a bum leg to be a championship runner. It takes a truly exceptional individual to even be inducted into the ranks of the Grey Knights in the first place. You need to be championship material to become a champion.


Thats... Kinda my point. :/ Only from the spiritual sense, rather than the physical sense.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> I belive this is what Hitler thought about with his concept of a perfect human race. Yes?


Did... did you just pull the Hitler and Nazi card only four pages into a thread?


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

Its to easy to put Nazism and Communism into the Imperium.

At this point in human history I'm pretty sure that concept of genetic superiority is widely accepted for the extreme good of the Imperium and mankind's survival. At least psychers for example and referred to almost being bred. So do the guys that control the titans.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Did... did you just pull the Hitler and Nazi card only four pages into a thread?


well, its an unwritten rule that as soon as someone brings up hitler or the nazis you can declare the thread over... :/


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I belive this is what Hitler thought about with his concept of a perfect human race. Yes? I mean I belive Almost ANYONE (Minus Down Syndrom, Paralegics, and Coma Victims) can be forged into a champ if they want it enough. Like Chief Brashear in Men of Honor. He lost his Leg and YET he was still better than most on RUNS. Why? Cause he wanted it. Im just saying....


This is not actually true, wanting something does not make up for lack of ability. Don't mistake triumph though adversity as the same as making up for lack of talent. Brashear would have been better with 2 legs. 

Space Marines are called Space Nazi's for a reason you know. It's because they're Nazi's IN SPAAAAAACCCEEEEEE.



> well, its an unwritten rule that as soon as someone brings up hitler or the nazis you can declare the thread over... :/


Godwin's Law written down


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

On topic though. 

I really like the Codex, picked up my copy and it only stung for a moment. 

That said I just want to play Inquisition and i'll be buying very few GW miniatures. I think I'll be looking at Urban Mammoth and the like to fill out my warbands. In fact I might start a thread to that effect looking for good alternatives.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> On topic though.
> 
> I really like the Codex, picked up my copy and it only stung for a moment.
> 
> That said I just want to play Inquisition and i'll be buying very few GW miniatures. I think I'll be looking at Urban Mammoth and the like to fill out my warbands. In fact I might start a thread to that effect looking for good alternatives.


i hope you do, i could do with finding some alt. models to represent an inq warband


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

What the hell happened to the ally portion where you can take a squad of GK termies with imperial guard? Or they can induct guard/space marines... the GK come off as assholes in this codex...


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Medic Marine said:


> What the hell happened to the ally portion where you can take a squad of GK termies with imperial guard? Or they can induct guard/space marines... the GK come off as assholes in this codex...


it was probably too complicated to balance for tourney play. its much simpler to keep codecies seprate.


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

the-ad-man said:


> it was probably too complicated to balance for tourney play. its much simpler to keep codecies seprate.


Despite how much sense that makes I'm still pissed, now I have to buy a whole damn army.... I liked deep srikeing in a squad of termies and people pissing and moaning it was fun. :so_happy:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

A Whole 2K army in GK's can be 16 Models if you want. It'll still costs ~£200 RRP (although cheaper likely if bought in together from online retailers), but it's a bit cheaper than forking that out for ~600pts like you have to do with Guard.


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

This is true, They can be a third project after the damphyrs are done and the imperial shield company is done too. No rush I got plenty on my plate.


Still liked that rule.....


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the GK should send the failed recruits to the black ships 

most of the failed recruits are probably pretty strong psykers, but I suppose the trials are so tough failure means death...really inefficient if you ask me


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## Kinglopey (Sep 10, 2008)

*Pro's:* The GK fluff had some interesting points, like they deal with anything including Xeno's to stop chaos. Also that they were behind Dante's one-on-one fight with the GD and they mind wammied them into thinking Dante did it solo, it never sat well with me before.

*Con's:* Talk about butchers... 1 Million to get 1, murder millions to save billions, Sacrifice SOB's for Purity Rituals, Only they have the strength to handle the Sorcery (What about Magnus and 1KSons they got disowned, yet GK were apparently sanctioned by the emperor)... that I didn't like, as others have mentioned. The Fantastic Voyage into the Warp is a bit silly to me... still reading the fluff on some of the other SC and Inquisition.

Rules wise, the thing that hit me was the Assassins aside from the Vindicare were all nurfed, even the Vindicare lost his spy mask, which I thought was cool...
Poor poor Arco's... I want to play them in my SOB army now until their codex is jacked up...


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