# 2 FOC.. whattacrap!



## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm a Nyds user.. at begining i tought.. GREAT! MORE ELITE FOR MY CRAPPY CODEX.. but after i used my brain more..
OMMAGOD!
just take a look at this and comment
http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/07/2-foc-is-bad-you-retards/
bit buff for my nyds, but overOPED for other already-OP armies..


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

so basically we're going to be seeing a lot of 1999 point games


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

the problem is not he uberness of thoose lists, but the crappyness of SOME codexes on others.. and i really think 2FOC maximize it


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

2 FoCs really mess the game up in my experience. Whereas normal games (1999 or less) tend to be close, hard fought battles. 

2 FoCs usually means the amount of firepower both armies have is bordering rediculous and just comes down to who gets the first turn.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

More of a bad thing can magnify how OPed something is. So 2 FOCs is likly to make cheesy lists even cheesier. Personally I wont be using 2 FOC armies as I rarely play over 1500 points currently, and certainly never more than 1800.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

XT-1984 said:


> 2 FoCs really mess the game up in my experience. Whereas normal games (1999 or less) tend to be close, hard fought battles.
> 
> 2 FoCs usually means the amount of firepower both armies have is bordering rediculous and just comes down to who gets the first turn.


totally agree


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

So dont play over 1999 simples


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Or don't make retarded lists that don't actually add up to greater than 1999.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Or you could agree with your opponant not to use two foc.

But in the end - you get the same points. If someone is absolutely spamming something to 'win at all costs', then that should tell you something about who you are playing.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

i'm not talking about what i could do, or the idiotic spamming-fire-list, i'm talkin about the fact that 2 FOC actually can easily ruin the game, just it..


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

yostu said:


> i'm not talking about what i could do, or the idiotic spamming-fire-list, i'm talkin about the fact that 2 FOC actually can easily ruin the game, just it..


well any number of things can easily ruin a game, next time you play get up on the game board, drop your trousers and curl out a Mississippi steamer atop of a bastion, that will ruin the game pretty quickly too, but as was pointed out, the game is and always been what you make it, if you allow 2 FOC spam then you cant complain if someone exploits it.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> drop your trousers and curl out a Mississippi steamer atop of a bastion


:gimmefive:
rofl

I'm just telling that there will be some armies that will be spamming imba OP lists.. and others, like nyds, that will get a little bit buff from 6 elites.. just that.. and i know in warhammer there are unbalanced things at the base and new codecies have to be imba to be selled and bla bla bla bla..

mine was just a consideration :wink:


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

TyraNIDS

not 

tyraNYDS


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Double FOC is a way to allow bigger games to be more impressive. There are a lot of armies that can fill all their FOC very quickly between 2K and around 3.5K, allowing them a second FOC sooner than before allows them the ability to play a bigger army in these games.

Now can it be used for cheese Stelek style? Sure. But that's not the point of it and everyone knows it. If anyone does that to you, don't play them. 

As for tournaments, I've already heard of a lot of them that are preventing this by playing 1999 or "1999+1" (2K but 1 FOC) so I wouldn't worry about those.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> TyraNIDS
> 
> not
> 
> tyraNYDS


i think you will find its TyraNARDS.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> i think you will find its TyraNARDS.


wooot?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So flood the board with 360 termagaunts, go lawls you have guns, look I own all objectives.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Are there even any 'official' tournements that go over 2k? Ard boyz is gone.....nova and most indy GTs are between 1500-1850. I don't see this being an issue at all.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Tyranids got a massive buff to their base monstrous creatures - the ability to take more of them simply makes them stronger.

HQ = 320
Tervigon
Tervigon

Elites = 410
Deathleaper
Hive Guard
Hive Guard
Hive Guard
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

Troops = 590
10 Genestealers
10 Genestealers
10 Genestealers
10 Genestealers
3 Ripper Swarms

Fast Attack = 780 170x3 510
3 Raveners
3 Raveners
Harpy, TL Heavy Venom Cannon
Harpy, TL Heavy Venom Cannon
Harpy, TL Heavy Venom Cannon

2K

That's not spam, that's damn powerful.

Alternatively, I could go with 4 Preferred Enemy Aura Flyrants, 4 Harpies, and 4x 5 Genestealers for around 2K.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

two FoCs is the only real way to get an effective nids list above 2000pts. i played a lot of 2500 pt games in the past and the nids codex fell apart at around 2100+. you just could not get the units in the lists that you needed due to our elites and heavies being super crowded. 

as to those lists, i believe in the 'save my nids' thread, someone posted that those lists were illegal. 

we got mighty screwed in 6th for traditional nid lists, but two FoCs was not one of the things that hurt us.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Tyranids got a massive buff to their base monstrous creatures - the ability to take more of them simply makes them stronger.
> 
> HQ = 320
> Tervigon
> ...


not a bad idea but i am looking at play testing this when i get back to canada:

FoC1

HQ
Tyrant
Old Advesary
TL MC Devourers
TL MC Devourers
Leech Essense
Paroxsym
Armored Shell

265

Elites

Hive Guard 2 

100

Troops

Termaguants 23

Termaguants 20
Devourers

200

Heavy

Tyranofex
Rupture Cannon

265

Tyranofex
Rupture Cannon

265

FoC2

HQ
Tyrant
Old Advesary
TL MC Devourers
TL MC Devourers
Leech Essense
Paroxsym
Armored Shell

265

Elites

Hive Guard 2 

100

Troops

Tervigon 
Toxin Sacs
Adrenal Glands
Psychic Power

195

Termaguants 20
Devourers

200

Heavy

Tyranofex
Rupture Cannon

265

Tyranofex
Rupture Cannon

265

2500


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Try Biomancy, instead of Nid Powers. Also, if running Footrants, try and get in a couple of Tyrant Guard.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

I used to but they got rid of wound allocation. So, i want to playtest as2. 32 as 2 wounds strikes me as awful amusing given power weapons are ap3. Going testing out the range of powers. Just didnt have book on hand. 

Great thing bout nids is no hull points. a tfex is now better than a landraider.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

The prob is ap4 and ba3.
50% hit, semi-sure penetrate, and no bonus on damage chart..
for 265pt
or 260pt with anti-infantry weapon
for 1.665 dead marine (not considering cover save)


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Could be. I had great luck in 5th with similar builds and from what i see, this wont change much. I will post a battle report once i test it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

2+ T6 monsters are not that resilient - Plasma and Lascannons are making a comeback, Monstrous Creatures are one of the most resilient counters (ironically) to Monstrous Creatures, Heavy Destructors, Railguns (Tau are amazingly good in this edition), massed Rending (and Snipers), are all making their mark locally. Power Weapons were never really this issue either - after all, for the most part, you only wounded on a 6 with Power Weapons.

The Tyrant Guard weren't to abuse Wound Allocation, but simply to give extra wounds to the Tyrant, as well as Lash Whips to give your Tyrant additional punch and resilience in CC.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

I play a lot of nids. This is very similar to my tournaments lists. I think this would actually be a pretty hard list... bit spamy... but good. 

The other point of this list is to only CC on my terms. 

It may or may not work but I think it will.

Heavy weapons are move and snap fire and two tfexs, from experience, wreak heavy weapons platforms. Two tfexs was a dead vehicle a turn on average.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

2 fexes are -2hull points a turn, but not sure at 100% to destroy a vehicle  they are 2 rolls on the vehicle damage chart, and having AP4 it means no bonuses on it


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm laughing pretty hard at that Ork List from the link...

If you're going to max out your Elites with Lootas, don't take 6 five man squads... you take 90 of those, and laugh as your opponent dies to Ork shooting.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You have 4, so 8 BS3 shots, 4 hits, Typical Armour 12, 4 possible results (75%), so 3 penetrates, with 2 possible destroyed results, not including cover saves.

1060pts to realistically destroy a single vehicle a turn? If it's about getting it in CC, might as well go for multiple Fexes (with Bio Plasma thanks to new Blast rules) or Trygons.

@Da Joka - Too Right. However, to do the list proper I'd prefer 3K.

At 2K though, here's How I'd do it.

HQ = 170
Big Mek, KFF = 85
Big Mek, KFF = 85

Elites = 510
6 Lootas = 90
6 Lootas = 90
6 Lootas = 90
6 Lootas = 90
5 Lootas = 75
5 Lootas = 75

Troops = 780
30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas = 195
30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas = 195
30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas = 195
30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas = 195

Heavy Support = 540
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90
3 Big Gunz, Zzap Guns = 90

18 Strength 2D6 Shots? YES PLEASE.

I


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You have 4, so 8 BS3 shots, 4 hits, Typical Armour 12, 4 possible results (75%), so 3 penetrates, with 2 possible destroyed results, not including cover saves.
> 
> 1060pts to realistically destroy a single vehicle a turn? If it's about getting it in CC, might as well go for multiple Fexes (with Bio Plasma thanks to new Blast rules) or Trygons.


St 10 shots. the hive guard are st 8. 

Hit on 4+ and reroll 1s.

It is a 33% chance to fail per shot and an 16% to glance an av 12 both due to preferred enemy iirc.

Add the 120 shots from the guants and 12 from the tyrants.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

CC got hit in the nuts this edition due to overwatch and fleet and removing from the front. Nids codex has some hard as nails alternatives to the CC army that hasnt existed since 4th edition codex and even then was only so-so.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Well, all the lists from the link in the OP are illegal. A second FOC means a second HQ, which none of those lists have. They're also crap in 6th ed, since vehicles can't claim or contest objectives any more. Light armor spam isn't going to get the job done anymore, and small squads are going to get shot off the board in no time flat. Whoever made those lists isn't familiar with the 6th ed rules, and is just complaining about the double FOC.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

ohiocat110 said:


> Well, all the lists from the link in the OP are illegal. A second FOC means a second HQ, which none of those lists have. They're also crap in 6th ed, since vehicles can't claim or contest objectives any more. Light armor spam isn't going to get the job done anymore, and small squads are going to get shot off the board in no time flat. Whoever made those lists isn't familiar with the 6th ed rules, and is just complaining about the double FOC.


And yet the person who made those lists claims he's had the rulebook for 6th since the start of the year.

Needless to say there is a reason why I only go to Stelek's site occasionally, and that's because he's usually so off the mark it loops past not funny into being funny again.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Stelek's a prick who struck lucky with one list and has since gained a notoriety thats completely disproven - calling a tournament winning list "shit", which then went on to clean sweep, and promoting crap builds.

He was simply stressing that 2FOC is poor, but going about it the wrong way. He maxed every slot (because too many people are complaining OHMYDAYS 6 Manticores/Medusa, 6 Fire Dragons, 6 Sternguard etc), simply to prove the point - however, instead of looking at utilising the 2 FOC's minimally (such as by using a fourth slot where there was none before).

And Ohiocat, small squads still work, and work well, especially scoring ones in 2FOC's. Not only is it the only way you can fit in the squads, but when everyone else is taking 4 huge squads, and you can keep the mobility, you're much stronger.

For example, Dual FoC Blood Angels with 12 5 Man Jump Pack Assault Squads, Dual FoC Dark Eldar with 12x Venom Warriors, Dual FoC Nids with 12x Genestealers - at around 900pts, 1320pts and 840pts respectively, you still have plenty of room to play with. 

You have the mobility, and the application of firepower, and in general, flexibility.

A Spam Nid list?

HQ = 320
Nid Prime, Scything Talons and Rending Claws = 80
Nid Prime, Scything Talons and Rending Claws = 80
Nid Prime, Scything Talons and Rending Claws = 80
Nid Prime, Scything Talons and Rending Claws = 80

Elites = 660
2x Hive Guard = 100
2x Hive Guard = 100
2x Hive Guard = 100
2x Zoanthropes = 120
2x Zoanthropes = 120
2x Zoanthropes = 120

Troops = 672
8 Genestealers = 112
8 Genestealers = 112
8 Genestealers = 112
8 Genestealers = 112
8 Genestealers = 112
8 Genestealers = 112

Fast Attack = 340
Harpy, Twin Linked Venom Cannon = 170
Harpy, Twin Linked Venom Cannon= 170

= 1992 pts MSU, for speed, multi-charges, flexibility...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

lokis222 said:


> as to those lists, i believe in the 'save my nids' thread, someone posted that those lists were illegal.


That makes quite a bit of sense, or does to me as long as when the rulebook says you can take another primary detachment (that standard FOC we use) you have to include the base requirements in order to gain access to the additional slots.

So correct me if I am wrong, but every one of those lists is illegal based on the fact that the second primary detachment does not have an HQ. [That would be every list in the link, not the ones posted here.]


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

darkreever said:


> That makes quite a bit of sense, or does to me as long as when the rulebook says you can take another primary detachment (that standard FOC we use) you have to include the base requirements in order to gain access to the additional slots.
> 
> So correct me if I am wrong, but every one of those lists is illegal based on the fact that the second primary detachment does not have an HQ. [That would be every list in the link, not the ones posted here.]


You are correct.

And this is why you always double check what other people post online because it can be very wrong.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

It is spamy but it just isnt good. Harpies, in spite of being flying MC, are fragile. 

Genestealers are pretty ass now.

Zoans were never great.

Primes are a waste like that. 

About the only decent unit there as is are the hive guard.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Pardon me, but, I don't exactly understand where the 2 FoC is coming from. I have yet to buy and read 6E yet so that is probably where my confusion is coming in.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

at 1999 pts it's 1 FOC. At 2000pts+ you can now take two - but that means taking a minimum two extra troops and a hq.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

At 2000 points, you can get a second foc as long as you meet the base reqirements. ie hq/two troops.

The book will clear things up.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh, ok. I thought that was just for allies.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Really? Harpies fly around, Venom Cannoning Hull Points off vehicles, Spore Cyst Bombing Runs, And Sonic Screaching into CC against Archons etc. Also they counter Flyers.

Genestealers are the one consistent counter to Terminators in any army. Mobbing a unit with 2-3 units of Stealers is a decent way of cutting them apart.

Zoans ass? Really? Destroy any vehicle on a 3+?

Primes can either hunt IC's or run for lone enemy heavy weapons squads like Devastators or Sternguard etc.

Stop looking with 5th edition eyes.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Vaz said:


> And Ohiocat, small squads still work, and work well, especially scoring ones in 2FOC's. Not only is it the only way you can fit in the squads, but when everyone else is taking 4 huge squads, and you can keep the mobility, you're much stronger.
> 
> For example, Dual FoC Blood Angels with 12 5 Man Jump Pack Assault Squads, Dual FoC Dark Eldar with 12x Venom Warriors, Dual FoC Nids with 12x Genestealers - at around 900pts, 1320pts and 840pts respectively, you still have plenty of room to play with.
> 
> You have the mobility, and the application of firepower, and in general, flexibility.


I was talking more about the spammy 3-man GH and SW squads he was using. 5-6 man squads in Razorbacks should still work well enough, although they will be more vulnerable given changes to shooting and cover (all infantry will be).


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Really? Harpies fly around, Venom Cannoning Hull Points off vehicles, Spore Cyst Bombing Runs, And Sonic Screaching into CC against Archons etc. Also they counter Flyers.
> 
> and one st 10 shot and they die
> 
> ...


the list you posted would have trouble with pretty much anything shooty and most things CC. nothing personal, but have you played nids?


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

lokis222 said:


> It is spamy but it just isnt good. Harpies, in spite of being flying MC, are fragile. News flash, every flyer is Fargile... that's why you need 6's to hit them.
> 
> Genestealers are pretty ass now. Don't assault a unit that has Flamers, and you'll be fine.
> 
> ...


Nids are still fine, you just have to play them a little different. Anyways Orks took a much bigger hit in 6th then Nids did, and are still fine.

Anywho anyone who as read the book knows that they don't care about tournaments anymore... Every other page talks about Narrative gameplay, and making the game more fun.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Enough times.

S10-non blast weapons shots - such as from where? Railguns? Zoanthropes? Hitting on a 6, followed by a Dive?

Stealers can Infiltrate. And with Fleet for a 6" Move, and 2D6 assault range for and average 10" run+assault, with your 6" move for an average 16" threat (with potential 24"), I really don't know what you're on about.

And yet you have 6 Zoanthropes on a vehicle that is only ever going to be coming closer to you? 

13" average threat, instead of a 12" threat? WHAT?

Nothing personal, but have you played/read the 6th edition book?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

You can't run an assault anymore.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Mindfart, yeah.

But still, you're typically threatening a 13" radius with potential 18" (8-18 radius, as opposed to 13-18"). There's a minor difference.

Also, you don't have to run Stealers either. Run 6 Units of 22 Termagaunts. Don't have to run your Primes either, run 2 Tervigons. 

2 Tervigons
3x2 Hive Guard
3x2 Zoans
6x22 Termagaunts
2 Harpies, Venom Cannon


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

What you, and the person who made those lists, fails to realize, is that not only is the FOC doubled but so are its requirements, aka, you need 2 HQs and 4 Troops. He only has one HQ in all those lists.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> Nids are still fine, you just have to play them a little different. Anyways Orks took a much bigger hit in 6th then Nids did, and are still fine.
> 
> Anywho anyone who as read the book knows that they don't care about tournaments anymore... Every other page talks about Narrative gameplay, and making the game more fun.
> i play competative 40k... so, yeah not sure what to make of this yet.


i think nids will work fine. i don't think CC nids stand a snowflakes chance in hell in anything beyond casual fun.

orks are one of my other armies. still haven't had a chance to look at them vs 6th yet. was only looking at necrons and nids.

thought your idea of 90 lootas was hilarious. probably mean as hell too.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> 13" average threat, instead of a 12" threat? WHAT?
> 
> Nothing personal, but have you played/read the 6th edition book?





aboytervigon said:


> You can't run an assault anymore.


:laugh:

yes, i have.


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## yostu (Feb 19, 2010)

love that list!  with some gargolles will be great!


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> But still, you're typically threatening a 13" radius with potential 18" (8-18 radius, as opposed to 13-18"). There's a minor difference.


sorry about the multiple responses.

13 average vs 15.5 average is significant. especially if you factor taking casualties from the front from overwatch/snap fire.

also, people are going on about how awful flyers will be because you hit them on sixs. i am not sure that will be such a huge factor. smart play will probably end up mitigating that pretty easily. given they are usually light weight (necron av 11, dark eldar 10, orks 10, marines... 12?) and as such, weight of fire stand a good chance of wreaking them. good counters out of my armies are lootas, devourers for rear armor, mc devourers, and necrons have the tesla cannon which iirc is skyfire. 

personally, i would be happy to see harpies because i know how many points my opponent just wasted.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

lokis222 said:


> i think nids will work fine. i don't think CC nids stand a snowflakes chance in hell in anything beyond casual fun.
> 
> orks are one of my other armies. still haven't had a chance to look at them vs 6th yet. was only looking at necrons and nids.
> 
> thought your idea of 90 lootas was hilarious. probably mean as hell too.


Yeah 90 Lootas would be awesome... to bad I only own 12 

Slightly off topic I went to look at the price of the Loota/Burna kit to show you the reason why I haven't done that yet... but the Kit seems to be missing from GW's website. I guess their getting new models :victory: I just hope the new kit comes with more then four.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Sure 2 FOC's is a little ridiculous, but has anybody thought about how much more money GW is gonna make now?


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Gonna be collecting a new force and I don't see it passing 1500 points in the near future. I'm safe.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Hey, since we are in a stelek thread, I would like to take a moment to make fun of him.


Basically, this guy takes 40k way too seriously. Just look at the kind of language he uses in that article that OP posted. This guy is an absolute tool. 

I don't care if he's better at 40k than the emperor himself, It doesn't give him rank to refer to other human beings in the way that he does. Everyone that empowers or respects this guy is a total sheep. He's a d-bag of titanic proportions, and his extreme arrogance that seems to stem from being good at a recreational miniature wargame is downright embarrassing. I love 40k too, but I don't walk around with a cock up my ass telling everyone that they are a total fucking retard if they think that 2 focs will be a good idea. (Also, I don't think that 2 focs is a good idea, but I think that it won't make as big a difference as people are suggesting).

All this is amplified when you see a video or a picture of him and you are made aware that this guy is the prototypical basement dwelling virgin neckbeard.

Don't take this guy seriously. There are plenty of good blogs out there written by people with great skill in 40k that you can take advice from who won't influence you towards being a nerdraging shutin.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

So sick of Nid players whining. Last Tourney my FLGS had, Nids went undefeated. 1st turn assaults, 2nd turn assaults by 30+ models... cmon people, Nids didn't get hurt, they just got balanced out. Not to mention you have a better chance of night fighting this edition, which means even safer nids.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

How did nids get a first turn assault?


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> How did nids get a first turn assault?


infiltrate


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Arcane said:


> So sick of Nid players whining. Last Tourney my FLGS had, Nids went undefeated. 1st turn assaults, 2nd turn assaults by 30+ models... cmon people, Nids didn't get hurt, they just got balanced out. Not to mention you have a better chance of night fighting this edition, which means even safer nids.


That is not most Nids player's experience. Good for that Nid's player though. Most nids player build without considering the codex that they were given and that is why they are considered underpowered. 

That and venomspam hurt Nids a lot. I can deal with most armies, but that still gives me fits.


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## AresXero (Dec 6, 2008)

Da Joka said:


> infiltrate


infiltrators cannot assault on the 1st turn now


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

AresXero said:


> infiltrators cannot assault on the 1st turn now


Which ruins the Warboss Slingshot trick some Ork players used to advocate.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Zion said:


> Which ruins the Warboss Slingshot trick some Ork players used to advocate.


And genestealers


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> And genestealers


No, they were hurt by the change to the reserves rules.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Mindfart, yeah.
> 
> But still, you're typically threatening a 13" radius with potential 18" (8-18 radius, as opposed to 13-18"). There's a minor difference.
> 
> ...


As stated by others, it's not just the threat range (which with fleet, averages out to about 15/16" assault range, so about the same as before). It's the additional rules, overwatch fire and removing casualties from the front, which reduces charge distance. Plus the fact that Move Through Cover gives you no benefit if you have to pass through difficult terrain, and greatly reduces charge ranges now.
The army looks fun, although I shudder the idea of buying and trying to paint 150+ Termagants...



Iron Angel said:


> What you, and the person who made those lists, fails to realize, is that not only is the FOC doubled but so are its requirements, aka, you need 2 HQs and 4 Troops. He only has one HQ in all those lists.


I think people are being a bit pedantic regarding those armies. Yes, they aren't correct, as they are missing a second HQ, but they illustrate some of the abuse a second FOC can offer.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Scotty80 said:


> As stated by others, it's not just the threat range (which with fleet, averages out to about 15/16" assault range, so about the same as before).


reread fleet


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Zion said:


> No, they were hurt by the change to the reserves rules.


depending on terrain, infiltrating genestealers was very powerful. they were hurt by both reserves and infiltrate rules.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Just a quick question that came up. Since the topic of genestealers came up. The elite version of genestealers has the ability to appear in terrain from reserves. In their actual codex rules it says they can charge the turn they show up. So since Codex > BRB it seems like this is an exception....correct?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

I would say yes.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Scotty80 said:


> I think people are being a bit pedantic regarding those armies. Yes, they aren't correct, as they are missing a second HQ, but they illustrate some of the abuse a second FOC can offer.


Actually I don't think they're being that pedantic as you're only showing a failure to pay attention to the rules when you ignore those requirements.

Additionally that means those lists actually total more points than they claim since they didn't factor in the 2nd HQ, thus limiting the amount of spam available.

Either way, those lists are stupid and people would find to nuke them within 5 games. They have redundancy, sure, but no sense of balance. They suffer from being overwhelmed by obvious counters (say a longer distance shooty army, or one that brings templates, or relies on superior movement speed and skirting enemy ranges (Tau, Guard and Dark Eldar in that order) and by armies that are built the play the missions better.

In other words Stelek fails at proving a point because he abuses the copy and paste function and thinks that's all you need for a strong or good list in this edition. From what I've been reading 6th Edition needs a strong, balanced list not some spam crap to win. Will there be ways to abuse the rules, I don't think the 5th Edition mentality of "spam shit to win" will work anymore.



asianavatar said:


> Just a quick question that came up. Since the topic of genestealers came up. The elite version of genestealers has the ability to appear in terrain from reserves. In their actual codex rules it says they can charge the turn they show up. So since Codex > BRB it seems like this is an exception....correct?


Yes, because the BRB says that they can't charge when entering from reserves_ unless they have a rule that says otherwise_. And since they have a rule that says they charge, they charge.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

AresXero said:


> infiltrators cannot assault on the 1st turn now


That's the point if you read my post.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

'oh no x army is totally illegal as it has not taken an additional 35 pt character in favour of a snotty pfist sergeant'. Pedantry at its finest. Admitedly, yes illegal, but not above showing possible abuses.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Vaz said:


> 'oh no x army is totally illegal as it has not taken an additional 35 pt character in favour of a snotty pfist sergeant'. Pedantry at its finest. Admitedly, yes illegal, but not above showing possible abuses.


Actually I was thinking of Stelek's spam lists which always include some ridiculiously tooled up HQ choices. 

Either way I've yet to meet a spam army that can win every single game like the internet claims they can. I've seen better results using smarter, balanced lists than any sort of "rule abuse" list.

Heck I'm still waiting to see one of these Stelek armies win any big event like his little community believes they should.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Wasn't stelek the leafblower guy? Whose self admitted path to victory was paved with the bones of bad luck (subjectively, anyway), and noobs? Which since got meta'd into oblivion about a month later when someone else tried the same.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Wasn't stelek the leafblower guy? Whose self admitted path to victory was paved with the bones of bad luck (subjectively, anyway), and noobs? Which since got meta'd into oblivion about a month later when someone else tried the same.


I don't know honestly, but if the only reason you win a tournament is you get lucky, and not that you had an actual sound strategy or that you played well...how can you even count that?

Either way he's basically been preaching Leafblower for every army in some form for all of 5th Edition, and if it didn't last long then, how's it going to last long now?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ugh, Stelek. I don't read his blog, because it's like 3++ but a lot worse and Stelek's a bit of a dick.

Anyone who will go and buy 11 Night Scythes to win at a game of toy soldiers needs to think very hard about their other hobbies.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Ugh, Stelek. I don't read his blog, because it's like 3++ but a lot worse and Stelek's a bit of a dick.
> 
> Anyone who will go and buy 11 Night Scythes to win at a game of toy soldiers needs to think very hard about their other hobbies.
> 
> Midnight


3++ is at least moving towards more general tactics and strategy, Stelek is tooting the same horn he was three years ago.

But yes, I agree, anyone who does buy 11 Night Scythes (or really tries to abuse the rules to spam anything for the sake of attempting to gain an "easy win") DOES need to rethink their life.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Has anyone played against Night Scythe spam yet? I wrote a 9 scythe list in 5th just because I liked the fluff for one of the characters but never got around to bulding more than 4. With flyer having specific ways they can move I don't see you being able to target everything you want to properly, or without very specific planning and flying. I just honestly don't see scythe spam as an instant win army, because every other turn you'll have them flying off the board or pointed at nothing worth shooting.
4 Command Barges and 6 Annihilation Barges on the other hand...


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Sothot said:


> 4 Command Barges and 6 Annihilation Barges on the other hand...


people already dislike playing my necrons. :laugh: if i tried that no one would ever play me again. i took a fifth ed version of that to a tournament and rofl-stomped everyone for first as it was. there were huge cries of cheese then. can't imagine what the upgrade would be called.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> people already dislike playing my necrons. :laugh: if i tried that no one would ever play me again. i took a fifth ed version of that to a tournament and rofl-stomped everyone for first as it was. there were huge cries of cheese then. can't imagine what the upgrade would be called.


Moon Cheese?


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