# The Fluff that Should Not Be



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

We've all been there. You're reading your new BL book, freshly minted codex, or just browsing through lexicanum...

and you read something that totally doesn't jive with your understanding of 40k. 

Maybe it's something small, like the description of a battle that just doesn't mesh with the way you think a faction fought. Or maybe it's an entire book series, while being cannon, is just written in such a way that you discount it entirely. "There is no way the Ultramarines would do THAT..."


So, what are your Fluff Nightmares? What stands out to you as something that goes against your 40k? Why?



I'll start with the rather infamous Blood Raven book line, with a specific instance being the "Make a Marine in a few days" story line. At least for me, there is no way you can just slap all the organs in and call it a day.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

There's already a dodgy fluff thread that was created fairly recently. You should check that one out. It shouldn't be hard to find.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I find any space marine article where the few face the thousands since in game 20 ork boyz are enough to mug a 10 man tac squad.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I find any space marine article where the few face the thousands since in game 20 ork boyz are enough to mug a 10 man tac squad.


This is what is known as balancing the game so its never truly one sided. If you ever play something like inquisitor, a space marine has strength and toughness easily four/five times greater than regular characters.

Think about it, as alien as an ork, wearing heavy armour and wielding armour piercing weapons vs an ork with cobbled together gear and next to no armour. Seems pretty reasonable that in a straight fight, a ten man squad of marines can deal with a mob twice that size.


As for the thread, for me its something you tend to see more in fan made stuff. What really makes me roll my eyes or cringe would be when you see some captured loyalists escape the eye after years, or some traitors turning loyal, and then going on to join a chapter, or to even form their own chapter, like its no big deal.

I mean come on, new chapter requires a founding, which requires the sanction of the high lords; and at this time there is no doubt they would sooner destroy a potentially tainted marine than give him authority over a thousand more marines. At least they wouldn't even consider listening or trusting him until a number of stringent, likely fatal, purity tests.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Pretty much every mention of marneus calgar, such as killing an avatar, something Fulgrim had great difficulty in doing and even then required a deamon blade


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, but Calgar is the God of War!


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

The blood angels dex and that cron thing.


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

it anoyes me how one laser shot can blow up a ship that has about the same size as the moon oops wrong universe:headbutt:


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

yep, those pissing wookies, still surviving


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Sometimes... inacurate depictions certain battles. For me, the worst one was the Iron Cage in Lexicanum and I've also seen this in other 40K wiki's shows that it was a battle that depicted the strife of Rogal Dorn. Though his forces got destroyed and they used their own brothers as literal human shields... and Perturabo got elevated to a Daemon Prince... and Rogal Dorn lost all those geneseed to the Iron Warriors, the Imperial Fists triumphed. To me at least, it makes more sense to deny it ever happened then to lay claim to a lie thats just crying out BULLSHIT.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually that would be Ewoks. But they are still awesome.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Pretty much every mention of marneus calgar, such as killing an avatar, something Fulgrim had great difficulty in doing and even then required a deamon blade


Yup, Fulgrim needed a cheap shot to take down an avatar. Though, for a manifestation of a god, that avatar was pretty fuckin' stupid. I mean, Fulgrim basically used a modified version of the old 'look behind you' trick and the ginormous flaming moron fell for it. That right there seems like some bad fluff to me. Sure it was a daemon blade, but you'd think a being such as an avatar of khaine would be above falling for such a lame-ass ploy.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Which if anything makes Calgars defeat of it even more absurd. Tbh its just the Ultramarines in general for me. They just can't do anything wrong, every other major chapter i can think of has had major defeats or really shitty things happen to them or are flawed in some way. Not the smurfs though, literally everything they do is perfect, evrythings a win, fuck guilliaman died yet they still HAD to add a little tid-bit in that some believe hes healing, sure he's not but the very fact that it exists pisses me off


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Bloody hell, not the Calgar-Avatar thing again; could you bother to read the fluff? The Avatar has walked through the combined fire of most of the Chapter, shrugged off the attacks by countless Marines and is already damaged. Calgar does the only thing he can do, as it has just cut a swathe through his battle brothers, and goes out to attack it and try to stop it before it, single-handedly, wins the battle for the Eldar. Here, as well as capitalising on the damage already done, he gets his ass kicked.
It comes down to a last second, do-or-die attack that finally kills the Avatar (thanks only to the fact he wears a Primarch's Gauntlets) but leaves Calger almost dead. The rest of the Chapter gather around him and protect him until they can get him away; it's so close that killing the Avatar almost kills Calgar. It wasn't some easy, stroll in the park victory, a living metal god killed with one punch. It was a fight that was only won because of the damage already done to the Eldar God, and the Gauntlets Guilliman used to wear.
The Avatar is used to show the strength and heroics of the Marines- taking one down is almost impossible and this is shown in the story. Only 40k fans could take the opposite message away, that Avatars are easy to kill.

GFP


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At AoB,
Except for a major defeat against both the Emperor's Children and the alpha legion, the loss of 90% of their number during the scourge, the loss of their home-world during the first tyranic war, and the steady loss of worlds due the continued tyranid incursions into the ultramar.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well in the fluff it explicitly states that the terminators efforts and the heavy weapons did nothing but make it angry, it shrugged off the terminators attacks and didn't slow it at all, it doesn't say its been damaged at all, and it wasnt the entire chapter shooting it, they had alot of other eldar to shoot aswell.

And yet i dont see any other chapter masters or chapters doing these uber heroic deeds comparable to the primarchs themselves


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

When he bitch slaps a bloodthirster and mind-fucks a Titan, maybe, you will have a case, but at this point your just getting bitchy for no reason. He won by the skin of his teeth and only because of the gauntlets of the ultramar.

And I believe, at some point, Grimnar fought of Magnus the Red.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ah sorry the Alpha Legion, 1. The Emperors children encounter had never gone into any detail other than Guilliman finally did somethin wrong. The Tyranid wars are still shown as huge victories, Macragge wasnt lost either. And where is this that they lost 90% of their chapter?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Bitchy for no reason? the entire point of this thread is to vent which fluff you don't like, and many, many others have a problem with the Avatar fight


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

During the scourge they took huge casualties trying to hold the imperium together. The tyranic war was only a victory because they got backup. 

And yes, bitchy. I, and it would seem GFP, don't think there is a valid point to your argument. If you feel something is wrong you should at least be able to prove it to some degree.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

They didnt lose 90% though, neither did they suffer horendous casualties, they lost peanuts compared to the other legions. Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, White Scars all suffered massively, almost all of them utterly devastated, then the Fists suffered horribly in the iron cage, the dark angels took huge casualties and had a inter legion civil war, and the Wolves lost massive numbers on Prospero not being an overly large Legion anyway and lost an entire great company. The Ultramarines had it quite nice and cushty by comparison


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, after the heresy they lost most of their number in the fighting.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I have proved it?! i just looked over that entry, like i said, it doenst mention anything of the Avatar being injured, it even says that it just got more angry. Calgar gets beaten up a bit sure, but even so, Fulgrim, a fucking primarch had a huge drawn out battle with it and in the end had to trick the avatar to kill it and use a deamon blade. And i hardly see an Avatar without a sword as being defencless, they can do plenty of damage with their hands alone.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Source for losing 90% or most of their number?

edit: infact the space marine codex lists them as *gaining* numbers after the heresy, not losing them


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't recall the source, but I am sure Baron can confirm it. I believe it was the collected visions.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The Avatar is used to show the strength and heroics of the Marines- taking one down is almost impossible and this is shown in the story. Only 40k fans could take the opposite message away, that Avatars are easy to kill.


Who said Avatars are easy to kill. The whole point I was trying to make was that even a primarch had to fight dirty to beat one. My only problem was the fact that the avatar for a god of war fell so cheaply (exactly because they're not supposed to be easy to kill) which is why I said that that particular bit of fluff was a bit weak to me. If you think logically, the moment Fulgrim threw his sword in the air the Avatar should have stabbed him. There, fight over and they could have destroyed the blade afterwards. 
Frankly, I don't give a fuck about Calgar. If you take away his bionic limbs and power armour, Marneus Calgar is nothing but a giant, howling pillow.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

The whole Draco trilogy......somewhere between dreadnaught encased assassins, titan highjacking, reincarnating dead assassins into new bodies and stasis freezers this set of books just leaves me with a perpetual feeling of wtf.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Ultramarines did didly squat during the heresy. They were too far away to do anything. In many ways it was the reason that they were the legion most intact after the heresy that let Guilliman become "Lord Commander of the Imperium." Also probably a good reason why the legions that didn't want to break down their legions did eventually.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Point? The more than made up for with their actions after the heresy.

Sorry, thought you were taking a different tone then you were. Lol


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Which if anything makes Calgars defeat of it even more absurd. Tbh its just the Ultramarines in general for me. They just can't do anything wrong, every other major chapter i can think of has had major defeats or really shitty things happen to them or are flawed in some way. Not the smurfs though, literally everything they do is perfect, evrythings a win, fuck guilliaman died yet they still HAD to add a little tid-bit in that some believe hes healing, sure he's not but the very fact that it exists pisses me off



I don't think I've heard this story, however, it could be that Guilliman lied about it or at least the fluff around it hyped it up to were perhaps the Avatar was actually more or less crippled before his fight with Calagar... He did lie about killing Daemon Prince M'Kar....

By the way Angel of Blood, I suggest you not read the book _The Chapter's Due_. I think if it pissed me off, it would set you over the edge. lolz.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And I believe, at some point, Grimnar fought of Magnus the Red.


It wasn't Grimmnar but it was a previous great wolf called Harek Ironhelm. According to fluff he fought and badly wounded Magnus, but was killed in the attempt, and to be honest I can see it happening. 

We all know Magnus is a complete pansy.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> The whole Draco trilogy......somewhere between dreadnaught encased assassins, titan highjacking, reincarnating dead assassins into new bodies and stasis freezers this set of books just leaves me with a perpetual feeling of wtf.


I'll second the Inquisition War trilogy...

and raise you Soul Drinkers. I find the whole premise rather absurd.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> What really makes me roll my eyes or cringe would be when you see some captured loyalists escape the eye after years, or some traitors turning loyal, and then going on to join a chapter, or to even form their own chapter, like its no big deal.


Aye. One prominent example being Uriel Ventris' adventures on Medrengard, that pissed me off.



gen.ahab said:


> I believe it was the collected visions.


No, the Scouring isn't included in the _Collected Visions_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh an i'll get this out the way before anyone else does:

C.S.Goto


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Scouring.... Well that was a fucking brainfart. Kept calling it the fucking scourge.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

gally912 said:


> I'll second the Inquisition War trilogy...
> 
> and raise you Soul Drinkers. I find the whole premise rather absurd.


Renegade staying loyal....I can see happening...mutated by tzentch....they had to be epic to overcome the corruption....but it's fing awesome series.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh an i'll get this out the way before anyone else does:
> 
> C.S.Goto


Oh god not that mother fucker


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Face the fluff that should not be! _HEAVY RIFFAGE Followed by Cliff Burton playing the bass_

Sorry'bout that. Anyway, back to the OP... Dante spliting a blood thirster in half... who happened to be the second greatest champion of Khorne, and yet not complains about that absurd victory.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Look, Rhinos. RHINOS! Our enemies hide in METAL BOXES, THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS! WE...we should take away...their METAL BOXES...!

Although, to be honest, Soulstorm doesn't so much piss me off as it leaves me guffawing.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> Look, Rhinos. RHINOS! Our enemies hide in METAL BOXES, THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS! WE...we should take away...their METAL BOXES...!


WHAT COWARDS FOR HIDING IN THEIR MEHTAL BAWKSES MEN! GET INSIDE OUR PIMPED OUT MEHTAL BAWKSES(razorbacks) AND BEAT THEM!


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## BearsofLeon (Feb 6, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> They didnt lose 90% though, neither did they suffer horendous casualties, they lost peanuts compared to the other legions.


Although true, the Ultramarines did lose all their Veterans during the Tyrannic Wars. The entire 1st company, (battle company mind you) was lost.

However. This is only 1 battle company. And how many of these fit into a great company? like 10. So I do see your point. Plus, Guilliman isnt dead yet...they caught him in the moment of death. his mind is gone, but the heart is in mid beat.


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## gundamboy195 (Aug 17, 2010)

lol every time i hear metal boxes i laugh.:laugh:


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Renegade staying loyal....I can see happening...mutated by tzentch....they had to be epic to overcome the corruption....but it's fing awesome series.


Not to mention they're slowly getting worn down to nothing plus their own Chaplin is probably plotting Bad Things for the survivors.

Plus they're already chaos-mutated so they can't really fit in anywhere.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> We all know Magnus is a complete pansy.


Well, say that to his face... I mean faces... ah fuck, never mind.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

BearsofLeon said:


> Although true, the Ultramarines did lose all their Veterans during the Tyrannic Wars. The entire 1st company, (battle company mind you) was lost.
> 
> However. This is only 1 battle company. And how many of these fit into a great company? like 10. So I do see your point. Plus, Guilliman isnt dead yet...they caught him in the moment of death. his mind is gone, but the heart is in mid beat.



What? Wrong part, man. We were talking about the scouring..... during which the UM lost most of their legion.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Frankly, I don't give a fuck about Calgar. If you take away his bionic limbs and power armour, Marneus Calgar is nothing but a giant, howling pillow.


Can I sig that? :biggrin:

I agree with what everyone says about Soul Drinker. It's stupid and I think a poorly written book (Im not a big fan of Ben Counter).
I mean c'mon wouldn't a daemon of Tzeentch be a little more subtle in turning them to chaos then just ripping the roof off of there fucking spaceship, to make sure that they, I don't know try to kill him? Oh and the end I found quite funny, it's something like "and they still served the emperor, not because of the Imperium, but because of the good principals he laid down," Really? What good principals died the Emperor lie down? I mean he wasn't like Jesus, he was a galactic conqueror! I've never heard of any of these anyway.

"eh spider legs, defiantly the emperor's blessing,"


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

I always thought 'well we're already damned, why not go about stomping the everloving frak out of the enemies of humanity while we're at it.'


Could be written better tho, won't say I could do better lest I suddenly get everyone on a 'why this fic sucks' response in my thread, but it COULD be done better... .


The basic idea of a traitor chapter that gave chaos the middle finger I like.


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## Good Minton (Sep 1, 2010)

Just a thought, but with the complaints about the fluff, and what with this being a close knit community as such, has anyone ever asked the authors where their inspiration came from to write what they did?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

For the Ultramarines is because it sells. Some like me, may have an issue with a chapter/legion with few if any flaws and always perfroming these massive acts of heroics that the others barely seems to do. But to those entering the game, young gamers in particular(no offence, but from my experience of gaming its true) it sells alot more. You make the Ultramarines the literal poster boys, on all the boxes/codexs/games etc and be almighty superior marines then people are going to buy them. Its economics 101. Then you add the Space Wolves, now the majority will go for the poster boys, but theres always some who like the a rebel while still wanting the 'good' side, Space Wolves give you that. The you've got the mysterious ones(dark angels) for those who like that, and the flawed ones(blood angels) for that audience.


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

Friend of mine brought htis point up, since they read more fluff than me. Smurfs arne't all that unique, at least when you compare them against other pet/named chapter/legions in how wtf their doings tend to get. Plus the whole Avatar thing, apparently, was perfectly doable according to game mechanics.


Still the idea of a Mary Sue chapter.... would make me go screaming and baying for blood along with the Khornites too.

Edit: Angel of Blood hit the nail squarely on the head. Kudos, now how the frak do I add reputation to them?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malak Falco said:


> Angel of Blood hit the nail squarely on the head. Kudos, now how the frak do I add reputation to them?


If you wanna give someone rep, look at the top right corner of the box of their post, the option is in between quote and report. From there it's fairly straightforward. Click on the +rep option, select how much rep you wanna add, give a reason (though this isn't required) and then confirm.


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

> how the frak


You know this has no actual meaning do you?

And lets delete the ultramarines from all records just like the two other legions.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

cain the betrayer said:


> > how the frak
> 
> 
> You know this has no actual meaning do you?


Col. Tigh disagrees


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Source for losing 90% or most of their number?
> 
> edit: infact the space marine codex lists them as *gaining* numbers after the heresy, not losing them





gen.ahab said:


> I don't recall the source, but I am sure Baron can confirm it. I believe it was the collected visions.


The Ultramarines went from a strength of 250,000 at their height to just about 24,000 when the Legions broke up- the only Legions to suffer to the same degree were the Raven Guard and Salamanders.

Even if you believe the UM only had 100,000 Astartes at their peak it's still a 75% loss by the end of the Scouring.

When you compare Calgar and Fulgrim taking down an Avatar you seem to forget a very important point- Fulgrim did it with his bare hands, he smashed the thing's head in with his fist. Calgar had the weapons of a Primarch and he still almost got owned.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Ultramarines went from a strength of 250,000 at their height to just about 24,000 when the Legions broke up- the only Legions to suffer to the same degree were the Raven Guard and Salamanders.
> 
> Even if you believe the UM only had 100,000 Astartes at their peak it's still a 75% loss by the end of the Scouring.
> 
> When you compare Calgar and Fulgrim taking down an Avatar you seem to forget a very important point- Fulgrim did it with his bare hands, he smashed the thing's head in with his fist. Calgar had the weapons of a Primarch and he still almost got owned.


Hail to the :king:. :laugh:


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Ultramarines went from a strength of 250,000 at their height to just about 24,000 when the Legions broke up- the only Legions to suffer to the same degree were the Raven Guard and Salamanders.
> 
> Even if you believe the UM only had 100,000 Astartes at their peak it's still a 75% loss by the end of the Scouring.


Something fishy is going on with this stuff.

Collected Visions provides the figure of 250k

Codex Spacemarines 5th Edition gives us the second founding info (in a vague way) that leads us to conclude that the UM's were down to 24k only 7 years after Horus' defeat.

Then, in between these things we have the scouring which we know very little about. What we do know (other than the above) doesn't lead us to believe that the UM's got a particularly big hammering during that time.

Something isn't right.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

increaso said:


> Something fishy is going on with this stuff.
> 
> Collected Visions provides the figure of 250k
> 
> ...


You work with what you've got.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> The whole Draco trilogy......somewhere between dreadnaught encased assassins, titan highjacking, reincarnating dead assassins into new bodies and stasis freezers this set of books just leaves me with a perpetual feeling of wtf.


I agree totally. I bought this trilogy because i wanted more Inq fluff. After i finished it i wished i haddn't.



Chompy Bits said:


> Who said Avatars are easy to kill. The whole point I was trying to make was that even a primarch had to fight dirty to beat one. My only problem was the fact that the avatar for a god of war fell so cheaply (exactly because they're not supposed to be easy to kill) which is why I said that that particular bit of fluff was a bit weak to me. If you think logically, the moment Fulgrim threw his sword in the air the Avatar should have stabbed him. There, fight over and they could have destroyed the blade afterwards.
> Frankly, I don't give a fuck about Calgar. If you take away his bionic limbs and power armour, Marneus Calgar is nothing but a giant, howling pillow.


Here is one point that everyone overlooks. The sword is the source of fulgrim's corruption. Eldrad saw that and so could the avatar. Destroy the sword and the corruption of the Emps children would be stopped. Thats why the avatar was fixated on the sword. And the sword, being sentient knew it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Agreed, theres something definetly wrong with that Ultramarines fluff if thats the case. To lose 200 thousand marines with no particular mention as to why seems a bit odd at the very least. I dont see it


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Great Scouring would probably do it. From the codex:

"As a result, the Ultramarines had come through the terrible wars [of the Horus Heresy] largely unscathed. Yet even these mighty warriors were stretched to the limit in buying time for other loyalist forces to regroup and rearm."

Shouldering the responsibility of keeping the Imperium together for a decade or so would take a terrible toll.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It wasn't just them though, they would have had legions of guardsman at their command, the remaining legions still had strength to fight. And even then 200k casualties is just unbelievably large, most loyalist legions casualties combined didn't come to that and, hell both combined Istvaan massacres didnt even come close to that.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Orks being fungus. Explains there being loads of them, but it just seems totally stupid to me! Fungus... It's the equivalent of the latest Marine codex saying 'They are genetically implanted with the WIN gland'.



BearsofLeon said:


> However. This is only 1 battle company. And how many of these fit into a great company? like 10. So I do see your point.


Out of curiosity, how are the set up now. Mentally my brain is still in the compendium and compilation so I always work off Chapter 1,000 men, Company 100 men. Has this changed now (or possibly sometime in the last 15 years?! ). I honestly don't know so any pointers would be good!

Edit: Think this was the original post heresy numbers, orignally they were meant to have 10,000 in the Chapter, which was split into ten 1,000 strong chapters after the heresy (haha, thinking about it, the horus heresy would be naff with so few troops, thank Hasslehoff they upped the numbers!  ).


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It wasn't just them, but it was *mainly* them. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Dark Angels didn't take part in the Scouring in any great amount, the Space Wolves and Imperial Fists were on a vengeance crusade that only nominally aided the Imperium.
The Blood Angels, and I presume the Iron Hands, were in turmoil reorganising their Legion after losing the Primarch and a lot of veteran troops- and as soon as the White Scars returned home to recoup they began their own hunt for the DE who stole thousands of tribesmen from their homeworld, resulting in the Khan's disappearance (again with most of the Legion's veterans), though his actual disappearance occurred after the Legion's split.

7 years of shouldering the burden in a fight that would have been more consistently intense than the Heresy is going to result in a hell of a lot of casualties- the fact that any Ultramarines survived at all is a testament to Guilliman.


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> Orks being fungus. Explains there being loads of them, but it just seems totally stupid to me! Fungus...


Fungus = badass


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

You're lookingfor logic and sense where orks are concerned?


The smeg is wrong with you?

Anyway Orks were, as I remember, whipped up by the Old Ones as a weapon against the Necron. I guess by that point they were losing \badly and wanted to make sure they had something in place that not only would survive and thrive without anythingapproximating education or training, but would be difficult, at best, to eradicate.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Malak Falco said:


> You're lookingfor logic and sense where orks are concerned?
> 
> 
> The smeg is wrong with you?
> ...


Not looking for logic, I just think it's stupid!  haha I know all the fluff surrounding it, I'm an ork player, but fuck, fungus?!

I remember a time when orks weren't fungus, and necrons didn't exist! 

Thems were teh days


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

It does a good job in explaining why Orks are able to reproduce pretty fast. Otherwise, yes I agree it kind of is stupid. Maybe they will change the fluff around it like they've done before where its able to still have a good explaination and still make sense. If they do, I bet a lot of people will be like, do you remember ten years ago back in the day orks were fungus? LOL


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> Here is one point that everyone overlooks. The sword is the source of fulgrim's corruption. Eldrad saw that and so could the avatar. Destroy the sword and the corruption of the Emps children would be stopped. Thats why the avatar was fixated on the sword. And the sword, being sentient knew it.


Firstly, the blade wasn't the sole reason for the EC's corruption. The temple on Laeran also had a major influence on their corruption. This is proven by the fact that only Fulgrim ever wielded that blade but he wasn't the only one that turned into a pervy fruitcake, all the other marines who accompanied him into that temple suffered similar sypmtoms. 
As for the Avatar recognising the threat of the daemon blade, a God of War must have had the basic deductive skill to figure out that if you wanna make the blade vulnerable, take out its wielder. I mean, the blade was evil and everything but, on its own, it's still only a fucking sword. It's not like it could fight the Avatar on its own. Which again is why I say the Avatar should have killed Fulgrim first and destroyed the blade when he was sure he could take the time to do it properly. 
Plus, even if they had destroyed the blade, I'm pretty sure Fulgrim still would have told them to fuck off. He didn't trust them from the beginning, they told him something about one if his closest siblings that he had a hard time believing to say the least, plus they attacked him and would have destroyed his newest toy. So sword or no sowrd, he probably still wouldn't have warned anyone about the heresy, thinking that the Eldar were merely trying to sow dissent within the ranks of the Imperium.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Grins1878 said:


> Not looking for logic, I just think it's stupid!  haha I know all the fluff surrounding it, I'm an ork player, but fuck, fungus?!
> 
> I remember a time when orks weren't fungus, and necrons didn't exist!
> 
> Thems were teh days


Tell us of these ancient days, oh wise one.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> It wasn't just them, but it was *mainly* them. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Dark Angels didn't take part in the Scouring in any great amount, the Space Wolves and Imperial Fists were on a vengeance crusade that only nominally aided the Imperium.
> The Blood Angels, and I presume the Iron Hands, were in turmoil reorganising their Legion after losing the Primarch and a lot of veteran troops- and as soon as the White Scars returned home to recoup they began their own hunt for the DE who stole thousands of tribesmen from their homeworld, resulting in the Khan's disappearance (again with most of the Legion's veterans), though his actual disappearance occurred after the Legion's split.
> 
> 7 years of shouldering the burden in a fight that would have been more consistently intense than the Heresy is going to result in a hell of a lot of casualties- the fact that any Ultramarines survived at all is a testament to Guilliman.


So in other words it's yet again showing something only the almighty Guilliamn and Ultramarines could accomplish. More intense fighting than the heresy that managed to decimate the majority of the Legions yet the Ultramarines still pull through. Links me right back round to my orginal point of the Ultramarines having fuck all flaws and able to fight a war (mainly on their lonesome) and survive intact that the was more intense than the war the other 8 legions combined got fucked in. Hmmm so i'll add this to my list of fluff that doesn't sit well


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How is it a stretch that they held with a marine count that probably would have outnumbered the loyalist legions even if they were at full strength?


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> So in other words it's yet again showing something only the almighty Guilliamn and Ultramarines could accomplish. More intense fighting than the heresy that managed to decimate the majority of the Legions yet the Ultramarines still pull through. Links me right back round to my orginal point of the Ultramarines having fuck all flaws and able to fight a war (mainly on their lonesome) and survive intact that the was more intense than the war the other 8 legions combined got fucked in. Hmmm so i'll add this to my list of fluff that doesn't sit well


No, the Ultras didnt fight very much in the heresy, just a few clashes with the word bearers and so were still at almost full strength during the scouring so they were the only legion lare enough to do the job of holding the imperium together, dont forget that they were mostly retaking worlds that Horus had claimed which were mostly manned by *Humans* not Astartes so therefore it stands to reason that they did not do to well actually.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So in taking worlds held by humans they suffered these horendous loses? still doesn't add up. And yes the Ultramarines were big, but they still lost men at Calth, and even then they werent as big as the other 8 combined. It's just unbelievable that they survived a war that was worse than another war that 8 other legions at full strength and with their primarchs leading them got utterly fucked in


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Of the Loyalist Legions it was only really the Raven Guard and Salamanders that were properly decimated during the Heresy, the Space Wolves took a battering and I'm sure that relatively heavy losses were suffered by those Legions who defended Terra but they were certainly still extremely potent military forces and they all contributed in some manner to the Scouring.

When I say the Scouring was more consistently intense I mean that it was 7 years of unremitting warfare whilst the Heresy had lulls- the most apocalyptic battles of the Heresy (Prospero, Terra, Istavvan III & V etc) over shadow anything in the Scouring but they were major events whereas the fighting post-Heresy was constantly brutal, no chances to take a breath, step back and recoup.

The Ultramarines lines were stretched thin, and considering how burnt and broken the Imperium was once the fires were doused I think Guilliman had to make some hard choices about exactly which parts of Mankind's Empire was worth saving- they saved the Imperium as an institution but they didn't save all of humanity's worlds.


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> So in taking worlds held by humans they suffered these horendous loses? still doesn't add up. And yes the Ultramarines were big, but they still lost men at Calth, and even then they werent as big as the other 8 combined. It's just unbelievable that they survived a war that was worse than another war that 8 other legions at full strength and with their primarchs leading them got utterly fucked in


We get it. You hate the Ultra Marines.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I think the argument is just a symptom of new fluff trying to include everyone where old fluff didn't. In old fluff, the Ultramarines had conquered so many worlds and spread themselves out in such a manner that they were unable to respond to the Heresy with any measure of effectiveness. Of course, also in old fluff, Horus bombed Istvaan III, set up shop on Istvaan V, had a successful drop site massacre, and then blitzed for Terra. None of this waiting years bull crap. Hell, in the original Horus Heresy board game, the siege of Terra is only like 5 days (each turn was a day) at which point the traitors lose if they don't either hold all of the spaceports or kill the Emperor because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves show up on day 6 of the siege. That is how little time the was for the traitors to actually win in the old fluff.

Not to sound like a crotchety old man (which, at 30, I am certainly not, although my attitude might say otherwise sometimes) where things were always better 'back in my day', but the Heresy seems that way from time to time for me. I liked the events being shrouded in mystery, and I think that, while exceptional stories in most cases, the Collected Visions, the Horus Heresy CCG, and the Books all create some problems where there were none before.

The Ultramarines are just the best example of that. Where they should have survived virtually intact just because they were unable to respond to a totally unexpected betrayal, they now have to have either survived in greater numbers than their obstacles should have presented, or had such a ridiculous marine count going into the Heresy that they outnumbered the next most numerous legion by a count of 5 to 1 or more. I know they were the largest legion, but that is pushing even my willingness to suspend disbelief.

Plus I like that Guilliman, the master of logistics, had spread himself far enough and thin enough that he put himself out of the most important fight in the history of mankind. It helps give his character further depth when you start to question his motives for needing to be 'The Guy' post-Heresy.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would like to think that somehow their was a huge battle that totally devasted the chapter. Perhaps the Ultramarines blowing up Olympia and suffering in return the consequences with their bretheren. That would make Perturabo and me smile. :laugh:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Justindkates said:


> We get it. You hate the Ultra Marines.


Sorry for double posting, but just read this.

I believe that the mystery around this big number disapearing after the Heresy is indeed something that should be pointed out. 

And I also believe that its not that people "hate" the Ultramarines. If there is hate it is often a misplaced hatred. At least to me, I think that the Ultramarines background fluff is well enough to where it could be one of the GWs most favored chapters. However, with all these over-glorifying stories about how fucken awesome they are, where an Ultramarine pulls an awesome knife out of his ass to make a daemon prince go "poof" and roaming around the eye of terror being completely fine, and the rest of the smurf crap thats being shoved down fans throats, its just like... :shok:... okay I get it. You can stop now.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

space cowboy said:


> I think the argument is just a symptom of new fluff trying to include everyone where old fluff didn't. In old fluff, the Ultramarines had conquered so many worlds and spread themselves out in such a manner that they were unable to respond to the Heresy with any measure of effectiveness. Of course, also in old fluff, Horus bombed Istvaan III, set up shop on Istvaan V, had a successful drop site massacre, and then blitzed for Terra. None of this waiting years bull crap. Hell, in the original Horus Heresy board game, the siege of Terra is only like 5 days (each turn was a day) at which point the traitors lose if they don't either hold all of the spaceports or kill the Emperor because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves show up on day 6 of the siege. That is how little time the was for the traitors to actually win in the old fluff.


I don't know it's been this way for at least 10 years now, I only joined the hobby in '98 so I can't speak for the times before then, but in the Index Astartes which were published years before Collected Visions the Ultramarines were the largest legion by a significant margin (and it's 2 times larger than the next largest legion- the Word Bearers- not 5) who were ambushed at Calth by Lorgar's legion after receiving orders to assemble there from Horus, the Siege of Terra took place over 55 days, and the Heresy as a whole lasted years.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I don't want to repeat myself, but i think it's worth making my angle clear.

I wouldn't go as far as to uncategorically state that the Scouring was not the cause of the Ultramarines losing 90% of their pre-heresy numbers, but i feel that a loss that great should be given a mention in the fluff and it simply isn't.

The Scouring fluff, that i am aware of, doesn't describe dramatic losses and these losses were indeed dramatic.

Oddly (and as was pointed out earlier) it appears, from IA, that the UM's actually grew in number during the Scouring.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Sorry for double posting, but just read this.
> 
> I believe that the mystery around this big number disapearing after the Heresy is indeed something that should be pointed out.
> 
> And I also believe that its not that people "hate" the Ultramarines. If there is hate it is often a misplaced hatred. At least to me, I think that the Ultramarines background fluff is well enough to where it could be one of the GWs most favored chapters. However, with all these over-glorifying stories about how fucken awesome they are, where an Ultramarine pulls an awesome knife out of his ass to make a daemon prince go "poof" and roaming around the eye of terror being completely fine, and the rest of the smurf crap thats being shoved down fans throats, its just like... :shok:... okay I get it. You can stop now.


Hitting the nail on the head their. Sure i don't like the Ultramarines, i won't deny that, hate no though. It's just like crawford said though and as i have been saying. They literally can do no wrong. Hell i really like the Tyranid war the Ultramarines fought, it's interesting and a good bit of a fluff, i like alot of the fluff that the UM have. 

What i don't like is the fact that they have no fething bad points. Not one. All the other chapters/legions have sufffered massively with no silver lining. The UM don't have that. The scouring takes away a hefty part of their legion, yet its still shown to be how tactically brilliant Guilliamn is and how awsome they are that they survived and pulled it off at all, so no flaw their, just more uber fluff. They lost their 1st company at Macragge sure, but it was a valiant and meaningful last stand giving the rest of the UM time to regroup on them, still a victory with silver lining despite the losses. Guilliaman dies, and while we all know that he's dead the moment that stasis field is lifted they still HAD to add in that little rumour of him healing, yes its crap but theirs always going to be some who choose to believe it. It goes on and on and on. 

Like i said, its not the Ultramarines fully, its more that i can't stand the lack of flaws. I would love to see them get massacred somewhere, like other chapters have, tricked or duped or make some massive error of judgement or something. They are simply infalable, and that's why i don't like them.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Tell us of these ancient days, oh wise one.


The days when GW released books like SPACE MARINE, featuring three young gangers from Necromunda through their training, when there were squats, imperial guard were bloody awful and Genestealers had cult armies. Oh, and until sometime around the time of advanced space crusade, there weren't any tyranids ;-) Not really relevent though, fungus is the bit of fluff I don't like all the same 

Ooooh, you were being sarcastic right?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

space cowboy said:


> The Ultramarines are just the best example of that. Where they should have survived virtually intact just because they were unable to respond to a totally unexpected betrayal, they now have to have either survived in greater numbers than their obstacles should have presented, or had such a ridiculous marine count going into the Heresy that they outnumbered the next most numerous legion by a count of 5 to 1 or more. I know they were the largest legion, but that is pushing even my willingness to suspend disbelief.


But even in the current fluff they were too far away to help from an unexpected betrayal. Current fluff has Horus ordering Guilliman's Legion away form the main Heresy deliberately.



increaso said:


> I don't want to repeat myself, but i think it's worth making my angle clear.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as to uncategorically state that the Scouring was not the cause of the Ultramarines losing 90% of their pre-heresy numbers, but i feel that a loss that great should be given a mention in the fluff and it simply isn't.
> 
> The Scouring fluff, that i am aware of, doesn't describe dramatic losses and these losses were indeed dramatic.


Considering the sheer scale of fighting and the fact that the Ultramarines only divided into 23 chapters it stands logically to reason that they would have taken heavy losses.

Of course, when the Scouring fluff was writen it was before the ''hunderds of thousands'' of Legion sizes was introduced.



Angel of Blood said:


> What i don't like is the fact that they have no fething bad points. Not one. All the other chapters/legions have sufffered massively with no silver lining. The UM don't have that. .


The seige of the Star Fort Indomitable? The Ultramairnes losing half of their 5th Company and a Daemon Prince is released? Cold Steel Ridge? The Ultramarines being beaten in the field by the Tyranids? (And before you say that they won the Tyrannic War, that was the whole war in the end. I was referring to the single battle, not the Space War were it was decided)

Well to be honest, how many other chapters really get beaten on a regular basis? I can count one of two major defeats for each Chapter. And even then for most chapters they have some ''silver lining''. Fact is Codices will have more victories than defeats for chapters.



Angel of Blood said:


> The scouring takes away a hefty part of their legion, yet its still shown to be how tactically brilliant Guilliamn is and how awsome they are that they survived and pulled it off at all, so no flaw their, just more uber fluff.


I'm afriad I don't see how that peice of fluff is uber. It would be uber if the Ultramarines were depicted as doing it with ease, but the Scouring was always presented as something huge and difficult for the loyalists.



Angel of Blood said:


> Like i said, its not the Ultramarines fully, its more that i can't stand the lack of flaws. I would love to see them get massacred somewhere, like other chapters have, tricked or duped or make some massive error of judgement or something. They are simply infalable, and that's why i don't like them.


The Indominatable? The loss of Prandium? Cold Steel Ridge?

Look hard enough and you will find it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

increaso said:


> I don't want to repeat myself, but i think it's worth making my angle clear.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as to uncategorically state that the Scouring was not the cause of the Ultramarines losing 90% of their pre-heresy numbers, but i feel that a loss that great should be given a mention in the fluff and it simply isn't.
> 
> ...


I read the IA article you suggested and to me it suggests that the UM's recruitment rate was simply greater than the other Legion's (unsurprising considering they recruit from 8 systems), they were relatively undamaged by the Heresy, and the other Legion's also lost Astartes during the Scouring.

In fact it points towrds the other Legions nearing the point of extinction (relative to their pre-Heresy numbers) rather than the UM growing.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

You know, I'm starting to look at the Horus Heresy books as akin to the Star Wars Prequels. 

Sure, they might be cannon, but that doesn't mean they haven't destroyed a good part of the mythos for me.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I love it how every thinks that Marneus Calgar killing a Avatar is incredibly unrealistic, but Dante killing Skarbrand is completely logical.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Too true. Lol


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> I love it how every thinks that Marneus Calgar killing a Avatar is incredibly unrealistic, but Dante killing Skarbrand is completely logical.


His fanboys will of course answer that his experience is what allowed him to defeat one of Khorne's more powerful servants...experience but less powerful weaponry.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> I love it how every thinks that Marneus Calgar killing a Avatar is incredibly unrealistic, but Dante killing Skarbrand is completely logical.


Then we should probably also mention Njal Stormcaller bitch-slapping another bloodthirster (not to mention the fact that it was killed by a psychic attack, something that the brass armour of khorne is supposed to render it immune to). Man, for the god of rage, death, war etc. khorne's most powerful servants are certainly portrayed as a bunch of pussies.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

To be fair they probably know they are going back to the warp anyway. Probably just destroying crap till they died. Its like playing call of duty Modern Warfare 2. Your killing nubes left and right. Your too tired as you exhausted yourself. Then the nubest of the nubes finds some stupid way to kill you, like camping and waiting for me, or some stupid predator missle. 

So in all fairness, neither Dante or Guilliman were nubes. I think the idea that the Daemon Prince and the Avatar where both exhausted over their previous engagements before encountering these heros that finished them as more likely.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Daemons don't get tired.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

We hear about one group of Astartes doing a great deed. We should take that deed and extrapolate it out to all other Chapters of Astartes, them being made up of some of the greatest heroes to fight for Humanity, who can and do also perform said great deeds. But no, if we don't get the words on a page in front of us, it can't have happened.
We get a story about Calgar beating on an Avatar. If the entire Chapter was there, then there were at least 20 Devestator squads, plus whatever heavy weapons the Tac squads carried, plus whatever Plasma/Melta the Assualt squads carried, plus Attack bikes, plus Scout heavy weapons, plus whatever vehicles/air support the Chapter has. No damage to an Avatar that has to walk all the way through that? But worse, is to get the idea that no other Chapter will have experienced something to this. Maybe not these exact circumstances, but some similar and, at times, even harder to overcome.
Go to the list of Chapters on Lexicanum. Pick on, any one. This Chapter can, has, does and will do anything the Ultras have done, just as well or better. They have heroes just as great as Telion and Sicarious and Cassius and even Calgar. The only reason, in-universe, we don't hear about them is that the Ultras are a First Founding Legion with an incredible past that spans almost all of Imperial history, whose territory of Ultramar is an important part of the Imperium. These other Chapters may be younger, further out from the political centre of the Imperium, or just more insular.
In real life, the Codex is shown to be a really important part of the Astartes and the Ultras are shown to hold the Codex as a central part of their life; to pick ANY other Chapter as the representative of this would dilute the importance of the Codex.
As for fluff that shouldn't be, I'm not sure I've read any. The 40k verse is huge, and about anything can, would, could and has happened. Although, maybe C S Goto's books could be placed in the Imperial Webway- for 'safe keeping'.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@AoB: No flaws? Read the latest UM book. Sicarius is revealed as a pompous fuckwit, and Calgar is revealed as a liar in front of all his top captains. They have character flaws just like any other. 

Even the main protagonist Uriel is outshined several times by his subordinates, in matters that a captain is supposed to excel in. 

Aggeman and Tigurius having a bitchfest was funny too.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Daemons don't get tired.


I... want to maim kill burn all niiiiiight... and party every day!


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

there are a number of things in the latest Blood Angels book that really tick me off, but the thing that gets me the most is the nonsensical inclusion of the Lamenters as a 'successor' chapter. this is a pretty appalling reworking of the background, not least because, as a 21st (or Cursed) Founding chapter, they may well share some genetic traits with a previous chapter, but they are an attempt to entirely re-create the SM, not simply to perpetuate them. so in that sense they are not 'successors' at all.

bad as that is, its not the most annoying thing. the thing that most grinds my gears about the whole thing is that like many authors Matt Ward has some favourite words that he likes to use over and over again. one of his particularly favourite words is 'invariably', which he misuses on several occasions as a synonym for 'commonly' rather than 'always'. for the most part this doesn't matter, but when discussing the 'successor' chapters an their structure he flat out states that they 'invariably' maintain their own Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, which if he includes the Lamenters as a successor chapter we know to be blatantly false. worse still in the following sentence he contradicts himself (thus giving away that he doesn't really know what the word means) by offering an example of a successor chapter that does vary in its structure.

i don't mind deliberate changes and attempts to move the background forwards or expand its boundaries. but what Matt Ward has done is change the background by ignorance, which doesn't make for anything like as satisfying a 40kiverse.


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

Well what do you expect? They're unholy abominations. They don't obay sensacle and reasonable things like fatigue.

Maybe it's just me but this thread seems to be majorly slanted towards smurf hate. Can we... uh kinda chill there? Just a little? It seems almost like asking for a pyromaniac to walk into a room full of gasoline to bring them up.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> I... want to maim kill burn all niiiiiight... and party every day!


Knights In Slaanesh's Service?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

> I love it how every thinks that Marneus Calgar killing a Avatar is incredibly unrealistic, but Dante killing Skarbrand is completely logical.


As with all historical things there's no context to the achievement. Did Calgar go toe to toe one on one with the Avatar, no probably not that would be retarded. But under sustained attack the Avatar is banished and Calgar was there, Calgar killed the Avatar. Just as Alexander the Great conquered, he didn't do it by himself but it's always written that HE did it. 

It even mentions in Dante's backstory that killing the Bloodthister is gone in folklore and he refuses to confirm or deny it, preferring to allow the common man to have heroes to believe in. 

Aramoro


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> Knights In Slaanesh's Service?


Ah yes, good acronym there. They DO wear makeup...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> As with all historical things there's no context to the achievement. Did Calgar go toe to toe one on one with the Avatar, no probably not that would be retarded. But under sustained attack the Avatar is banished and Calgar was there, Calgar killed the Avatar. Just as Alexander the Great conquered, he didn't do it by himself but it's always written that HE did it.
> 
> It even mentions in Dante's backstory that killing the Bloodthister is gone in folklore and he refuses to confirm or deny it, preferring to allow the common man to have heroes to believe in.
> 
> Aramoro


On the contrary, the majority of the battle is detailed and Calgars fight with the Avatar is well detailed, toe to toe is exactly what he did. The rest of the UM with him were quite busy with the other Eldar, the ones that did fire at the Avatar did little damage. The Dante one however is entirely open to myth and interpretation and i for one hope it is a warped acount of what happened. I love the Blood Angels and Dante but that would be worse than the Avatar fight, cutting a Bloodthirster in half with one blow with a weapon that wasn't even a Primarchs.


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> Davidicus 40k said:
> 
> 
> > I... want to maim kill burn all niiiiiight... and party every day!
> ...


Any objections to me sigging this?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> On the contrary, the majority of the battle is detailed and Calgars fight with the Avatar is well detailed, toe to toe is exactly what he did. The rest of the UM with him were quite busy with the other Eldar, the ones that did fire at the Avatar did little damage. The Dante one however is entirely open to myth and interpretation and i for one hope it is a warped acount of what happened. I love the Blood Angels and Dante but that would be worse than the Avatar fight, cutting a Bloodthirster in half with one blow with a weapon that wasn't even a Primarchs.


Hey Calagar could also be a lieing sack of shit as stated before. You watch the next of Uriel's adventures will be an Avatar escaping his shackles from underneath the temple of Calagar! Just like the lie of M'kar, Uriel must find the "shard of Khain" and poke the Avatar with it so that it blows up like a balloon! :training:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ok, I still don't see why we are still on about calgar. Really nothing wrong with what he did other then win. Also, it isn't as though he won because of some form of badass skill; he punched it in the gut with a piece of ancient weaponry used by one of the greatest of the primarchs, ain't like he did a backflip while spewing lighting from his ass and killed it with a spork.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I don't know it's been this way for at least 10 years now, I only joined the hobby in '98 so I can't speak for the times before then, but in the Index Astartes which were published years before Collected Visions the Ultramarines were the largest legion by a significant margin (and it's 2 times larger than the next largest legion- the Word Bearers- not 5) who were ambushed at Calth by Lorgar's legion after receiving orders to assemble there from Horus, the Siege of Terra took place over 55 days, and the Heresy as a whole lasted years.


My first purchase of a 40k product was in 1993, and my first foray into 40k 'for real' was in 1995, when the first Codex: Ultramarines was released (for second edition.) Around that time GW had a cardboard chit game released called 'Horus Heresy' that was basically a vastly simplified version of the current FF game. My basis in the fluff is from that time. I don't remember anything about Calth. The only thing I remember about the Ultramarines was that Horus, prior to becoming a traitor publicly, had ordered them to far away locations to prosecute their duties in the crusade.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> His fanboys will of course answer that his experience is what allowed him to defeat one of Khorne's more powerful servants...experience but less powerful weaponry.


Experience at complaining about how sad he is about Sanguinius's death?


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

BA dancing kumbaya with Necrons I just laughed out really loud when I read that one....


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Experience at complaining about how sad he is about Sanguinius's death?


To be fair, Dante is by far the most experienced Chapter Master and argueably one of the most experienced marine alive apart from Bjorn(and apparently some ancient Salamander from the salamander book i've not read)

But even then it's still ridicolous. I've said so above. Calgar killing an Avatar is just bollucks no matter how you try and justify it imo, that's my opinion and im fully entitled to it. But i still agree that Dante killing a bloodthirster is just as bad if not worse considering it says one blow, but then that account isn't confirmed, it specifically states they don't know whether that really happened at all, its all folklore and legend.


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## Hialmar (Feb 19, 2008)

The funny thing about this thread is that people either complain about things that other Chapter's characters can do or supposedly did, or complain that their own Chapter's characters should be able to do the same things. 

Seems like less of a problem with the fluff and more of a whine that their own guys should have been the ones to do it, and because someone else did they don't like it. 

The biggest fluff issue I ever saw was probably how deadly and brutal the simple lasgun is when wielded by any IG trooper Dan Abnett ever wrote about. On the other hand I could see the neccesity for this, as nobody wants to read page after page about the IG firing volley after volley of shots to drop a couple of Chaos Marines. A certain degree of poetic license is required to make the backstory entertaining.

In my opinion part of the problem is that the fluff and the rules will never really jive with each other. Usually the game play comes first so that there is an interest in the backstory. So if a reader has played the game for a while and seen how pathetic the IG lasgun can be, it makes it difficult to read a novel showing how deadly they are. Same thing with Ork shooting or any other area where the game does not seem to match the fluff.

Based on the previous hate for Marneus Calgar I almost hate to mention this but I had a BT trooper with a Power Fist in 3rd edition kill an Avatar in combat with this squad in HTH combat. Does this make him better than all the Primarchs and the equal of Calgar? No, he got very lucky and had some guys around to take ablative wounds as he punded on the Avatar. Now if I wrote a fluff piece and had this same BT trooper take the head off of an Avatar in combat everyone on here would cry foul, yet in the game it happened and it should be able to happen in the fluff as well, especially when you change the facts to make my BT Trooper into someone like Calgar.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Hialmar said:


> The biggest fluff issue I ever saw was probably how deadly and brutal the simple lasgun is when wielded by any IG trooper Dan Abnett ever wrote about. On the other hand I could see the neccesity for this, as nobody wants to read page after page about the IG firing volley after volley of shots to drop a couple of Chaos Marines.


The only good fluff I've ever read about chaos beyond "Legion" was in deathworld. A bunch of guardsmen are around a campfire telling harrowing tales(I got out of an exploding chimera! I killed a single ork with help from two other guys!) and the most badass of them all was this scarred veteran. His claim to fame?

He avoided a chaos marine.

He didn't shoot him, he didn't stare him in the eye, the veteran hid and prayed to the emperor that the chaos space marine didn't find him. He survived being within twenty feet of one.

Meanwhile in the dawn of war books, HUNDREDS of chaos space marines die to simple mundane shuriken pistol fire. Or to las fire. They just die. Such a trash novel.


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## Hialmar (Feb 19, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> The only good fluff I've ever read about chaos beyond "Legion" was in deathworld. A bunch of guardsmen are around a campfire telling harrowing tales(I got out of an exploding chimera! I killed a single ork with help from two other guys!) and the most badass of them all was this scarred veteran. His claim to fame?
> 
> He avoided a chaos marine.
> 
> ...


I thought that both Lord of Night and Storm of Iron provided pretty good depictions of Chaos Marines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hialmar said:


> In my opinion part of the problem is that the fluff and the rules will never really jive with each other. Usually the game play comes first so that there is an interest in the backstory. So if a reader has played the game for a while and seen how pathetic the IG lasgun can be, it makes it difficult to read a novel showing how deadly they are. Same thing with Ork shooting or any other area where the game does not seem to match the fluff.
> 
> Based on the previous hate for Marneus Calgar I almost hate to mention this but I had a BT trooper with a Power Fist in 3rd edition kill an Avatar in combat with this squad in HTH combat. Does this make him better than all the Primarchs and the equal of Calgar? No, he got very lucky and had some guys around to take ablative wounds as he punded on the Avatar. Now if I wrote a fluff piece and had this same BT trooper take the head off of an Avatar in combat everyone on here would cry foul, yet in the game it happened and it should be able to happen in the fluff as well, especially when you change the facts to make my BT Trooper into someone like Calgar.


I know your not comparing the game to actual 40k fluff. The game is absolutely something entirely different as the rules were made to create balance and keep a game from going more than two hours.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Hialmar said:


> The biggest fluff issue I ever saw was probably how deadly and brutal the simple lasgun is when wielded by any IG trooper Dan Abnett ever wrote about. On the other hand I could see the neccesity for this, as nobody wants to read page after page about the IG firing volley after volley of shots to drop a couple of Chaos Marines. A certain degree of poetic license is required to make the backstory entertaining.


I don't recall many Dan Abnett book where the guard actually take on more than one csm at a time. They come across a couple, i seem to remember one in an earlier book (the one where they travel on the maglev lines to the enemy artillery base) and then i don't recall any until traitor general. They do fight a couple of dreadnaughts but these are put down with heavier weapons then a lasgun. Admittedly the marines in traitor general get ruined by the ghosts but there are only five csm and they are also under fire from a whole heap of tribals (which get pretty badly messed up by the whole affair). For the most part the ghosts fight other humans or mutants, csm are a very rare occurance in the books. Each time a csm or nasty enemy rears it's head people tend to die horribly in most of the dan abnett books i've read.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

it's in the Traitor General. Gaunt, his squad of a dozen or so people, and a bunch of natives take out 5 Chaos Space Marines. Admittedly they came in cocky as hell, but there were some movie cliches at work. How one of the Chaos Space Marines was spraying his bolter at Criid and not hitting her, for example.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

hailene said:


> it's in the Traitor General. Gaunt, his squad of a dozen or so people, and a bunch of natives take out 5 Chaos Space Marines. Admittedly they came in cocky as hell, but there were some movie cliches at work. How one of the Chaos Space Marines was spraying his bolter at Criid and not hitting her, for example.


But it could also be argued that the CSM were doing a hell of a lot of damage to the natives considering that there were only 5 of them. I know CSM can put out a lot of fire on their own but these guys pretty much destroyed a village single handedbefore they were taken down. Yes it is cliche for the ghosts to come out unscathed and probabley it would have been a decent death scene for one of the named ghosts (better then Caf getting stabbed by a kid at least) but if you're going to argue that it would take serious time for 12 guardsmen to shoot down 5 marines in games terms consider how long it would take 5 csm to shoot down nearly a village worth of civies.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

BL books are never cannon.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Yeah...40 (it explicitly says 40) natives killed. It's funny because as Gaunt sees the CSM, he mentions that entire brigades (a modern brigade has somewhere between 3000-5000 men) would quit the field at the sight of a few Chaos Space Marines.

True, it wasn't exactly a stand up fight, but it beggars belief.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The the ghosts. They are like a company of John-117s; they just won't fucking die.


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## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

In _Traitor General_ they did kind of use a massive explosion of raw promethium to take a couple, one with tube charges while he was killing civvies, and Gaunt's power sword. No lasgun over-power there lol

As for the whole Space Marine heroes/Chapters issue, the Ultramarines 1 are the poster boys of 40k so they're designed to have bragging rights if we like it or not, 2 have a whole mess of deviant successors they're not so proud of (Doom Eagles are thought as dour, Mortifactors as downright depressing/debased), and 3 they're one of the Chapters with the best record keeping. Pays to own an entire sector of the galaxy.

What bothers me is when I read books that contradict established canon. For example, in _Rynn's World_, the majority of the Marines accompanying Kantor survived, while C:SM 5th says more than half of them died in the journey. I also felt that the way Drakken's fall is described in the book kind of pales compared to his older fluff.

As for the things I particularly didain, The Dawn of War books were just too far out there. Too many stretches. I also liked the forgotten-dark-ages feel of the Heresy before the HH series started up. I've avoided reading the series after reading the Alpha Legion and Death Guard novels. Both kind of clashed with my view of the core 40k mythos.

And perhaps I'm a hypocrite (since I play them) but the Tau completely destroy the 'grim, dark future' theme by being idealistic, functional communists. Even the attempt to paint the ethereals as secret manipulators didn't dampen that for me. It also explains why I've switched my focus a bit more to my SM army and started playing a bit o' CSM :chuffed:

Also, I expect Baron Spikey might have an answer to this, on page 243 of _Let the Galaxy Burn_, there is mention of the Primarch Rubinek :secret:. Generally I tie him into my whole angst over the "lost Legions." I don't particularly care about what actually happened to them, who their primarchs were, or what made them disappear. I _would love_ to know which turned to Chaos and which didn't though!  I also know people will tell me "silence! they're meant to be that secret!" So if you're gonna say it, make it at least sarcastic enough not to bug me :grin:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Rubinek even though referred to as a primarch was probably just a chapter master. But I think they deliberatly did that so people would go "aha!"


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rynn's World seemed a bit hit and miss with me, as well.

Though as the chapter master and his posse assaulted the rear of the Orks to enter the city at least 4 of his men fell, with perhaps a fifth skewered on a warboss's powerklaw (though this nameless marine may be one of the 4 that were said to be dead). And that was by no means an official headcount nor the end of that particular scrape. So anywhere between, say, 4-8 marines may have been dead. Which is half of 16.

And I for one see the Tau as investment. Sure, right now they're happy and willing to accept everyone. They've had the benefit of being protected by warpstorms and their inherent lack of reflection in the warp has prevented any sort of daemonic influences from affecting them. Let's see how their Greater Good deals with all the horrors of the galaxy. Let's see them become jaded and unsure. I think their welcoming of the Necrons that defeated a Tyranid Hivefleet only to be destroyed by the Necrons was pretty good.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> BL books are never cannon.


 
That's a joke right?


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

i'm actually inclined to agree.

they usually do more harm to the background than good.

as this thread really hasn't developed beyond talking about Marneus Calgar and how space marines are 'teh bezt' or 'nuh ur'. i think i'm definitely going to be taking this of my subscribed list.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I don't recall many Dan Abnett book where the guard actually take on more than one csm at a time. They come across a couple, i seem to remember one in an earlier book (the one where they travel on the maglev lines to the enemy artillery base) and then i don't recall any until traitor general. They do fight a couple of dreadnaughts but these are put down with heavier weapons then a lasgun. Admittedly the marines in traitor general get ruined by the ghosts but there are only five csm and they are also under fire from a whole heap of tribals (which get pretty badly messed up by the whole affair). For the most part the ghosts fight other humans or mutants, csm are a very rare occurance in the books. Each time a csm or nasty enemy rears it's head people tend to die horribly in most of the dan abnett books i've read.


Agreed. Whenever I see a CSM or something similarly "badass" in one of Abnett's books, I still think "Oh SHIT!" instead of "Oh, well I'm sure <insert protagonist(s) here> will kill it very easily, with no losses whatsoever."


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

BL books ARE canon though, shit they make up a good chunk of the fluff


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Pretty much is cannon. Not sure whats going on... sounds heretical in my opinion. Why would it not be canon?


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> That's a joke right?


I hope so.
If BL isn't canon you better chuck a whole shitload of fluff into the toilet, including most of what we know...in fact almost all of what we know about anything pre-heresy.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> I hope so.
> If BL isn't canon you better chuck a whole shitload of fluff into the toilet, including most of what we know...in fact almost all of what we know about anything pre-heresy.


I'm ok with that. 

Actually, I'm going with that as my official position: All Horus Heresy books are non-cannon. Bam. Done. Now my world is that much better. No more wangsty space marines, no more retcons, no more butchering the mystic of the Emperor or Horus. 

I like it.


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

I won't bother mentioning my one remaining Ultramarine left in a Tac Squad getting a lucky bolter shot this weekend and taking down a Daemon Prince's last wound.

To Simon the Ginger haired Space Marine... I Salute you.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I always thought that it was very idiotic of Fulgrim to first attack Ferrus Manus, knowing that he would retaliate back and Horus would be furious with him, but instead he left him there not killing him. WTF?


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

gally912 said:


> I'm ok with that.
> 
> Actually, I'm going with that as my official position: All Horus Heresy books are non-cannon. Bam. Done. Now my world is that much better. No more wangsty space marines, no more retcons, no more butchering the mystic of the Emperor or Horus.
> 
> I like it.



I'm not going to say that BL is or isn't official canon. But here's the question... If BL isn't canon then... What is?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Imperious Rex said:


> I'm not going to say that BL is or isn't official canon. But here's the question... If BL isn't canon then... What is?


I'll go out on a limb and say Codexes... and... err... pictures by BL artists...?... and... Codexes.... and... whatever the guys at the GW stores tell you...?...!!!! Yeah.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I always thought that it was very idiotic of Fulgrim to first attack Ferrus Manus, knowing that he would retaliate back and Horus would be furious with him, but instead he left him there not killing him. WTF?


From the way i read it Fulgrim wasnt fully corrupted by the blade yet and couldn't bring himself to kill Ferrus just yet, hell he very almost killed Horus and co soon after. Even on Istvaan he could barely bring himsefl to kill his brother


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> From the way i read it Fulgrim wasnt fully corrupted by the blade yet and couldn't bring himself to kill Ferrus just yet, hell he very almost killed Horus and co soon after. Even on Istvaan he could barely bring himsefl to kill his brother


Yes i understand your reasoning and it is logical to an extent but I still think that it is...whats the word, unlikely. IDK I just thought it wasnt very realistic in a sense.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That a man wouldn't want to kill his favorate brother?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

It just seemed to me that he was already begining to be corrupt and taint with Chaos and he was under the allegiance of Horus so I thought he would just have finished him there and be done with it. 

Oh well thats my opinion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fulgrim was still clearly conflicted at that point. He had no intention of going there to kill Ferrus, he seemed to believe he would willingly join Horus. Like i said he was still so conlifcted he almost considered trying to destroy the Vengful Spirit for a moment


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

You're probably right, I think I was looking at the persepective that Fulgrim was 100% Chaos. My bad 

One thing that I thought was strange was the fact that when reading Descent of Angels, they had VERY similar technology even though they had not been introduced to the Imperium. An example would be that they fought with chainswords and had very similar weapon and armor. Its not a big issue i just thought it was unnecasasry.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Androxine Vortex said:


> You're probably right, I think I was looking at the persepective that Fulgrim was 100% Chaos. My bad
> 
> One thing that I thought was strange was the fact that when reading Descent of Angels, they had VERY similar technology even though they had not been introduced to the Imperium. An example would be that they fought with chainswords and had very similar weapon and armor. Its not a big issue i just thought it was unnecasasry.


Chainswords, Bolt weapons and the proto-power armour used are obviously STC designs, a system used by most of humanity.

There you go, perfectly plausible fluff explanantion.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Ok, I still don't see why we are still on about calgar. Really nothing wrong with what he did other then win. Also, it isn't as though he won because of some form of badass skill; he punched it in the gut with a piece of ancient weaponry used by one of the greatest of the primarchs, ain't like he did a backflip while spewing lighting from his ass and killed it with a spork.


but Gen...he's calgar he can do anything i bet he can even cure dantes boys with a wave of his power fist from thier blood rage and get the BA's back to normal.....can you just see the sarcasim here...hell i wouldn't be surprised if someone suddenly said Calgar walked up to the papa smurfs shrine, did a gorgamel and hey presto he's alive and awake such is his power bleh!!!!!!


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Fulgrim was still clearly conflicted at that point. He had no intention of going there to kill Ferrus, he seemed to believe he would willingly join Horus. Like i said he was still so conlifcted he almost considered trying to destroy the Vengful Spirit for a moment


i actually thought for a moment that he relished the fight with Ferrus in his sanctum and the phoenix guard killing the bodyguard outside and i thought for a bit that he was totally corrupted until that is i got to the fight on Istvaan and i thought it was so well written, Fulgrim didn't want to kill Ferrus even at the end of it although i think Ferrus was too far gone in his quest for vengeance to realise that his brother was not himself.
i always thought he was a thinker, his temperment aside and i wouldhave liked to have seen him questioning why his brother had done this a bit more, put a bit more charcter into the primarch of the Iron Hands instesad of having him as bad tempered as Angron...that i would have expected of him in my honest opinion.


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