# TSM vs CSM



## Dwarfy2k (Aug 17, 2008)

I've read the new 5th eg SM codex and after reading the new tactical squads I could only think one thing.....they have less options then CSM but at the same time it pretty much forces you to use 10 man squads so my question is. Which do you find a better deal the 5th ED tactical squads or the CSM squads(not the marked units)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dwarfy2k said:


> I've read the new 5th eg SM codex and after reading the new tactical squads I could only think one thing.....they have less options then CSM but at the same time it pretty much forces you to use 10 man squads so my question is. Which do you find a better deal the 5th ED tactical squads or the CSM squads(not the marked units)


I'd say that Chaos Space Marines are still the better deal after the Codex update. It's a great strength that Chaos Marines aren't straitjacketed into taking ten man units without wasting points spent (as Space Marines are a tiny bit more expensive than before). It kinda sucks that the only way that the loyalist Marines can emulate the Chaos Marine unit of 5 or 6 with a meltagun in a Rhino is to give their Sergeant a combi-weapon.

That is however what makes armies different. Tactical Squads may be more limited in options than Chaos Marines unless you take a full ten man unit but there are plenty of other things in the army list that are undoubtedly superior about the loyalist book.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Good question.

Considering the squad itself I'd say that the CSMs are best by some considerable margin. Their 2 CCWs is a big deal, as is their more flexible squad size and armament. 10 CSMs get two special weapons if they want, which is always going to be a better option than a special and a heavy in a 10 man squad, in my opinion - certainly for them with their CCWs. A 5 man squad with a special wep is a reasonable choice as a cheap scoring unit if that's what you're looking for. You also don't have to pay for a champion if you don't want to with the CSMs.

Chaos have marks, which are quite good. I tend to think that if you're paying to mark a squad you may as well have cult troops, but it can be a good option.

To partially counter this, a marine squad split in half gives you both an efficient 5 man squad with a heavy wep and a 5 man squad with sergeant and special that you can send off towards the enemy. That is efficient and gives you a lot of scoring units. Chaos have no way to get a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon but the marines get a 5 man squad with a *free* heavy weapon.

Marines also have more stuff they can do with their squad. They can get in a drop pod, a rhino or a razorback, which gives you a nice cheap mobile heavy weapon. Arguably, a razorback with twin assault cannons taken as troops is a better option in an army than a Baal predator taken as heavy support, now that the latter can't fire its sponson guns on the move anyway. Deep striking troops with serious rapid fire damage as they arrive are cool, especially as they can split into combat squads after landing. A serious plus for the marines vs the chaos marines then, as the CSMs only get rhinos.

Some of the marine special characters also buff the marine squad in ways that the chaos guys don't get buffed - which roughly balances out with chaos getting their marks. Note that I'm not trying to equate the two of these, but they are of comparable power.

Marines certainly have better morale. The option to flee can make an enormous difference, getting out of a locked combat and rapid firing into the enemy on your turn, or shooting pistols and charging back in if you want, is nice. A squad that stays locked is often condemning itself to dying in its own CC phase and then leaving the enemy free to charge someone else, so preventing that can effectively give you two squads you would otherwise have lost. People are going to be doing this a lot, and their CC enemies are going to be unhappy about it.

I find that I end up liking the imperial marines slightly more. They seem kind of fun and the squad actually seems "right" fluff wise for the first time since 2nd edition. I am glad that the era of 6 man las/plas squads is well and truly over, and that the thing we have instead is actually both better and cooler than they were. Squads are back.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Space Marines are pretty damn good. Sure it costs 190 points for a lascannon and plasmagun now, but that's good as it was too cheap before. They can get razorbacks really cheap, and you can split the squads up into heavy weapon and mobile squads. Space Marines remain a shooting army that has excellent counter assault. The option to flee a combat so you can shoot it up in your turn is fantastic. Drop pods are still great.

It is difficult to compare units across codecies, sure CSM are better than Space Marines, however I personally believe Space Marines fill an important roll for the Space Marine army, while CSM do not fill an important roll.

CSM are a very efficient squad that doesn't do anything. Space Marines cost a little more but a vital to the army's success.


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## fool injected (Sep 14, 2008)

Another vote for CSM. They come w/ bolt pistol and ccw! 2 attacks base. Marines still only have 1 attack base. I like being able to have a variable number in my squad instead of the mandatory 5 or 10.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

fool injected said:


> Another vote for CSM. They come w/ bolt pistol and ccw! 2 attacks base. Marines still only have 1 attack base. I like being able to have a variable number in my squad instead of the mandatory 5 or 10.


You don't have to take 5 or 10 with Codex Marines either (since we're talking about the new book), only the Blood Angels and Dark Angels do.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

I like chaos space marines the best as you can change the stats.A unit of I 5 or A 2 chaos marines are way better than loyalists!


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## Dwarfy2k (Aug 17, 2008)

After Reading the codex some more I have to put my vote for CSM as you can beef up a CSM squad(t5 anyone?) And fill multiroles(although I like what you can do with the new marines) also when they come out I'll be going with a Scout based SM army(I know cool idea SM hoard army )


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## tigurius666 (Aug 11, 2008)

I prefer the new loyalist marines as the ability to have a free heavy and special weapon in a 10 man squad is a huge bonus, the ability to fleee from combat is a nice addition, its effectivey a low power hit and run:victory:


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## Minion_1981 (Dec 20, 2007)

it seems you're all forgetting ATSKNF and the ability to split squads and the ability to break from combat if they wish, that is Immensly powerful, that CSM can't even touch. If you beat standard CSM in CC, and they break, they get sweeped, Space marines are like, whatever we just take an armor save lol



tigurius666 said:


> I prefer the new loyalist marines as the ability to have a free heavy and special weapon in a 10 man squad is a huge bonus, the ability to fleee from combat is a nice addition, its effectivey a low power hit and run:victory:


and that too lol. that is a TON of bonuses.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Personally, I think they're both quite nicely balanced and keep fairly fluffy. 

Space marines being very tactical (hence the name) with the whole fall back, shoot and then finish them in combat. Rinse repeat. Or just plain shoot from afar with a lascannon.

Chaos Marines are more die hard and kamikase in their tactics. Charge forward shooting everything, then finish in combat with a brutal 3 attacks on charge.

Space marines are obviously slightly more survivable as a result, and I feel that has been adequately compensated for by the increase in points cost. 

Personally I prefer CSM rules wise, but SM in terms of fluff.

Whether the army is balanced is obviously another matter. Just in terms of troops space marines can take razorbacks and drop pods now, but CSM can be getting specialized troops such as deathguard or T-sons as well as giving their basic blokes marks. However, space marines also have a cheaper troop option, as well as a specialized transport specifically for them. 

I still prefer CSM though, even taking all this into account. It's the marks that do it for me.


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Rules-wise, the benefits of ATSKNF, combat squads, and combat tactics are huge. I prefer chaos marines for fluffs, marks, and flexibilities, but the loyalist SMs have rules that make them better in the event of failed morale, and match their fluff.


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

One thing I haven't heard mentioned is that Chaos Champions can no longer be given a Inv. save. In the countless CC battles were sergeants and champions make the outcome, I've found this to be a real draw back for the chaos player. Get your champion hit with a powerfist or weapon, he's dead like the regular guy standing next to him.


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## MindFreaky (Jan 24, 2008)

Testarosa said:


> One thing I haven't heard mentioned is that Chaos Champions can no longer be given a Inv. save. In the countless CC battles were sergeants and champions make the outcome, I've found this to be a real draw back for the chaos player. Get your champion hit with a powerfist or weapon, he's dead like the regular guy standing next to him.



Mark of Tzeentch Gives an Invulnerable Save of 5+ unless you have an Invul Save already, in which case it improves it by one. Pretty Useful.

I haven't really thought about the whole TSM vs CSM argument, mostly because I don't really use CSMs, preferring the Cult Troops myself.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i believe that they are both balanced out very nicely and that the balances fit into their fluff. i love the CSM options because i use the tactic of shooting and then charging into combat, and the CSM are tailored for this. if done right it works out very well. they both fit their "fluffy" personalities.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

When my current army is finished I will have 17 squads of CSM, so I gues you could say I like them.

However I am still waiting for my SM codex to study.


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## Untitled401 (May 12, 2008)

CSMs are armed to the teeth with war gear. They are a very flexible unit, even more so than TSMs. I think one of their strong points is in combat and the added ability to take an icon of khorne for example, boosts their efficiency. 

An icon that i use the most in my army, that not many people use is the icon of slaanesh. Being able to strike first with more attacks may not seem like a big advantage, but it gives you a slight edge over the opponent that may give you victory in the long run. The icons are not just for the CSM unit, its also available to almost all units in the codex. On top of that, icons can also be used as homing beacons for chaos units that are deep-striking. This gives chaos a wider range of tactics in their arsenal.

Thanks to 5th ed. my chosen flank attack and annihilate your tanks hiding in the corner. On top of that, their icon allows me to deep-strike my terminators, obliterators, daemons etc. into the heart of your battle lines where you may be quite vulnerable.


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