# Warpath - Mantics Sci-Fi rules



## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

This weekend, baring any last minute issues, Mantic will be releasing an alternative 40k style rule set called 'Warpth'. It will be free to download along with its army lists - should be Orks, 'Squats', Eldar and Humans.
Once the GW gravy train has been ridden, they should then be releasing more unique army lists. Models will be a few months away though.
I will post a link once I get it!


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the information. Hopefully they won't use the same ugly body shape for the Eldar that they did for the Elves.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

this a good news, you can just use your 40k minis to play mantics free rules !! then when they release new models you can just carry on using your GW minis that you have already paid for because they will no doubt fit the game system....

seriously though i do wish the small indies would try to do something original for a change rather than just scraping the bottom of GW's extremely well scraped barrel, im starting to gain respect for PP at least they took an idea and went out on limb with it, i dont think it was a good idea (steam punk) but they damn well stuck with it and are still doing well after 10 years.


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

I disagree bits and kits, Mantic is trying to capitalize at just the right time, especially with the restrictions on overseas purchases and shipment by GEE-DUB.

If they can create a decent Universe of fluff, alongside efficient rules, they are positioned to make inroads into the Australian market specifically because people will be able to use existing models.

As the prices for GW products get even more ridiculous for the southern hemisphere blokes, they can start buying up Mantic....and so far the sci-fi stuff all looks decent.

I know the special snowflake in me said "SQUATS?!???!? ME WANT" -alas no money or time atm...haven't worked on my sisters in 6 months XD.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Purge the Heretic said:


> I disagree bits and kits, Mantic is trying to capitalize at just the right time, especially with the restrictions on overseas purchases and shipment by GEE-DUB.
> 
> If they can create a decent Universe of fluff, alongside efficient rules, they are positioned to make inroads into the Australian market specifically because people will be able to use existing models.
> 
> ...


So what part do you disagree with ?


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

WEEEE! 

i shall try the mantic sci-fi rules! 
the fantasy ones seem simply but takes what fantasy 8th missed from early editions.

i hope mantic sci-fi NON-APE aliens.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Hrmm. This is probably what Mantic's mail about tonight's Beasts of War was about... should probably go find out...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> This weekend, baring any last minute issues, Mantic will be releasing an alternative 40k style rule set called 'Warpth'. It will be free to download along with its army lists - should be Orks, 'Squats', Eldar and Humans.
> Once the GW gravy train has been ridden, they should then be releasing more unique army lists. Models will be a few months away though.
> I will post a link once I get it!


 
HAHA - no they bloody wont be. Eldar and Ork are both GW trademarks...


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

That's pretty lame.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ashikenshin said:


> That's pretty lame.


Whats lame? The fact that another company are basically ripping off GW, or that GW actually trademarks its intellectual property?


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

Was referring to the second half, 



bitsandkits said:


> seriously though i do wish the small indies would try to do something original for a change rather than just scraping the bottom of GW's extremely well scraped barrel, im starting to gain respect for PP at least they took an idea and went out on limb with it, i dont think it was a good idea (steam punk) but they damn well stuck with it and are still doing well after 10 years.


While more diversity is good in general, in this instance, I think the stars are aligning for Mantic and similar is good.





Maidel said:


> HAHA - no they bloody wont be. Eldar and Ork are both GW trademarks...


"Orcs" and "The Elders" then...lol...you can only trademark so much of a fantasy stereo-type, especially when you pillaged it from literature in the first place.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Purge the Heretic said:


> "Orcs" and "The Elders" then...lol...you can only trademark so much of a fantasy stereo-type, especially when you pillaged it from literature in the first place.


They will bloody well try....

They have copyrighted many thing that they didnt invent:

Black library
'The chaos device'
City of the damned (??)
Eldar
Fanatic
Inquisitor


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/leaked-mantic-sci-fi-pictures/


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Mantic will make any similar races sufficiently different to not breach copy right - after all they already have Orcs, Dwarves, Elves and Abysal (Chaos Dwarves) in the fantasy range with no copy right issues. Its really just the fluff and game system GW can enforce copy right on, and invented words like 'Eldar' etc.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Appears their first army will in fact be Space Dwarfs.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

i dont think GW can copyright "Eldar" as the word has been used in loads of fantasy books like tolkien's lord of the rings and raymond e Fiest's Riftwar series as well as other game systems. GW may be alble to Copyright "ORK" but doubt they can copyright "ORC"


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

fynn said:


> i dont think GW can copyright "Eldar" as the word has been used in loads of fantasy books like tolkien's lord of the rings and raymond e Fiest's Riftwar series as well as other game systems. GW may be alble to Copyright "ORK" but doubt they can copyright "ORC"


Too late - check the trademark section on their website.

And yes - they have trademarked ORK not ORC.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

tbh, im looking forward to see what mantic does with there rule set and range of models, and i also like there approch to the game by getting us, the gamer involved with ideas and testing the rules, and haveing affordable models, maybe another company should take the hint about prices and getting the gamer involved.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

To be honest, i don't think they're jumping on the back of GW at all. How many other companies have been pumping out orc, human, dwarf, etc armies for years without issue. How many fantasy realms are there? Bloody loads (official figure). Besides I love the orc, undead and abyssal dwarf figures, they are truly stunning, the minis seem to be improving with each new army.

Look at all the other companies making sci-fi minis, there's hundreds, but none appear to have made as much in such a small space of time (I'm not talking money, I mean, from the first mini's I saw from them to now). I hope they do really well from it. Their minis are great, they have great customer service, decent prices, it's win, win. I'm not going to be paying 2-300+ for a decent sized fantasy army from GW when I can go with Mantic and get hundreds of blokes for far less.

Futuristic humans in space, faazands of 'em!

Can't wait to see what they bring out


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

Elldar!!

10char


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Synack said:


> Elldar!!
> 
> 10char


Or simply 'space elves' , which is what they have always been in reality.


I dont really get the whole 'jumping on the gw bandwagon' thing really, space battles , laser guns, space armour , aliens all existed a very long time before Rick Priestely and Andy Chambers came up with Rogue Trader.

It seems a little asinine to claim everything space related after 1987 is ripping them off, they didnt originate it, and any sort of competition in the arena is good, for both customers, and indeed, for GW itself, complacency seems rife within the game authors these days.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

nogginthenog said:


> Or simply 'space elves' , which is what they have always been in reality.
> 
> 
> I dont really get the whole 'jumping on the gw bandwagon' thing really, space battles , laser guns, space armour , aliens all existed a very long time before Rick Priestely and Andy Chambers came up with Rogue Trader.
> ...


Nobody is claiming GW invented Scifi, far from it, but GW did invent warhammer and 40k, face up to the fact mantic are unlikely just to pump out a "scifi wargame", they will and many others have since 1987 have tried desperately to emulate 40k, not emulate scifi,not emulate star wars/buck rogers/Geiger or Arthur c clarke in a war game, mantic will release a 40k "clone" thats clear from the choice of races alleged from the reports floating around, space dwarves is jumping on the band wagon so much the bearded little buggers are driving the wagon.

Also back in 87 didnt GW produce a scifi wargame based on "fantasy" archetypes? such as space elves and dwarves etc? and im fairly certain they were the first to do that and even if they were not the first people to do that, they were the only one that was successful, and they have been successful with that format to the point were mantic are now jumping on the band wagon.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Nobody is claiming GW invented Scifi, far from it, but GW did invent warhammer and 40k, face up to the fact mantic are unlikely just to pump out a "scifi wargame", they will and many others have since 1987 have tried desperately to emulate 40k, not emulate scifi,not emulate star wars/buck rogers/Geiger or Arthur c clarke in a war game, mantic will release a 40k "clone" thats clear from the choice of races alleged from the reports floating around, space dwarves is jumping on the band wagon so much the bearded little buggers are driving the wagon.
> 
> Also back in 87 didnt GW produce a scifi wargame based on "fantasy" archetypes? such as space elves and dwarves etc? and im fairly certain they were the first to do that and even if they were not the first people to do that, they were the only one that was successful, and they have been successful with that format to the point were mantic are now jumping on the band wagon.


But again, if every single sci fi game is disparaged as 'emulating 40k' then its no wonder we are in the mess we currently inhabit, as customers we deserve it.

Being of the same type of game shouldnt be a negative, take videogames, if everything post doom was disparaged for being a fps clone, how many truly fantastic games would have been missed in the last 20 years?

GW dont own the hobby, nor did they create it.

Someone releasing a sci fi wargame should be something anyone who enjoys the hobby itself welcomes, not pours negativity over, because the only way the hobby is going to gain is through expansion of choice.

GW have shown they cannot grow the hobby further, their actual customer base is shrinking, their financials show it, thus the endless critcicsm of anything new is just hurting the hobby as a whole.

If ONE person starts miniature wargaming because of Mantic, thats a good thing, and I despair if people cannot see that.
Its a social hobby that relies on others to enjoy, more people is better, and I for one couldnt give a toss how they get into the hobby.

Its ironic you use space dwarfs an example of why this game is going to be a copy of 40K.
I hope you dont need an explanation as to why.

Me? I've never even seen a mantic mini outside of the pictures on beastsofwar, I think they are variable in quality, but they seem to improve with each release, and offer decent value for money.

The 'resin is so much cheaper we are doubling the number of minis for the same price' schtick is pretty much marketing genius at this time, and people , even staunch GW supporters, should be applauding it.
Anything that puts pressure on GW to stop treating customers with contempt is good for everyone.

Now, I havent seen the rules, so I dont know how this game will play, I'd much rather see a game similar to 40K second edition in terms of game size and scope than a copy of current 40k, and reality is I probably will never buy a mantic product in my life, but I welcome the fact people are putting money into the hobby I enjoy , because I'll benefit indirectly at some point.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> But again, if every single sci fi game is disparaged as 'emulating 40k' then its no wonder we are in the mess we currently inhabit, as customers we deserve it.


But every sci fi game DOESNT have to emulate 40K.

40K is typified by 10 man squads with a sergeant (not across the board, but most commonly groups of 10)

40K has psychic powers

40K has 'grim dark'

And lots of etcs there.

I will give you an example. Look at 40K and Star wars. If you line them up side by side as a universe there are very few similarities. 40K is fantasy in space, star wars is 'aliens'. 40K has 'the warp', star wars has hyperspace and the force as very different things. Star wars has droid armies, clone troopers, 1 person fighter craft - 40K has eldar, nids, transports etc etc etc

They are VERY different universes with very different structures. Again, I could make the comparason with Star Trek - again, all three universes are VERY different (some more pure science than others), and lets look at battle tech - again, a completely different concept for a sci fi universe (and its a wargme as well!) - but the problem is anyone who puts 'elves in space' and 'dwarves in space' AND 'orcs in space' is simply ripping GW off entirely - rather than taking the more difficult (But in the end much more rewarding route) of making their OWN universe and their own game.



> Being of the same type of game shouldnt be a negative, take videogames, if everything post doom was disparaged for being a fps clone, how many truly fantastic games would have been missed in the last 20 years?


Well quake was just a doom rip off. The difference is, the other games may well have been 'first person shooters' - which is no different to saying 'wargame' - but they are all very different games with different universes (sci fi, fantasy future, modern day, world war etc etc).


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> But every sci fi game DOESNT have to emulate 40K.
> 
> 40K is typified by 10 man squads with a sergeant (not across the board, but most commonly groups of 10)
> 
> ...


So now 10 man squads is GW(TM)

Do you not see how ludicrous that is, or are you suggesting the UK military (squad size 10 led by an NCO) copied GW.

They didnt invent this stuff, they took fantasy archetypes they stole from tolkein et al and applied military organisation to it.

If you truly want 40k to be a better game, then you would welcome others in the arena, not disparage them.Competition will improve the hobby for us all, a mantic sci fi game , to me, means 40K 6th will be better than it would be without that mantic game, because GW will have to make the effort, especially if they see a hit to sales, they will have no choice.
Thats a positive, not a negative.

The idea that GW 'owns' squad based sci fi seems utterly ludicrous to me, given, space marines aside, there is nothing original in the entire game makeup in the first place.

I love 40k, thats why I want competition, it shouldnt be viewed as a threat, it should be welcomed, 40k will get better because of it.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree with Noggin, Mantic being a success can only be a good thing. 
If they are successful then one of two things will happen, GW will completely ignore them and will finally vanish up their own arses or they will buck up their ideas and try and take them on in the only way they can, a price war. 
Mantic's biggest selling point at the moment is proving that wargaming doesn't need to be as expensive as we have been led to believe, the minis could be better and they may well be a GW clone game wise, I don't care. If I can play a decent game that doesn't require a mortgage to get into then I will give it a go. 
At the moment GW are in the very cosy position of being a huge fish in a tiny pond, wargamers have little option but to use their product, as Mantic grows and improves GW's position becomes less secure meaning they will have to take a good look at their business model. 
Competition is good for the consumer, GW will actually have to start _trying_ rather than relying on the fact they have a near monopoly on wargaming.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> So now 10 man squads is GW(TM)
> 
> Do you not see how ludicrous that is, or are you suggesting the UK military (squad size 10 led by an NCO) copied GW.


Sigh... :headbutt:

That is clearly NOT what I said. What I was trying to say, and showing you with examples, is 3 other universes (two which are RPGs and other a full blown wargame) all of which DONT follow the same pattern. Star wars doesnt have fixed squads, star trek teams are generally 4 or 5, battle tech lances are 3. None are the same as GW with their (fairly) rigid) squads of 10.

Its not a single thing - GW dont have the IP to enforce people using 'powered armour' - however when you have bioengineered 'Marines' running around in 'Powered armour' firing 'RPGs' fighting 'space elves' on 'bone constructs' and 'space dwarfs' on 'trikes' - you are simply left with someone NOT using their imagination and copying GW but using different words - and this is what has been tried in the past.



> The idea that GW 'owns' squad based sci fi seems utterly ludicrous to me, given, space marines aside, there is nothing original in the entire game makeup in the first place.


Sorry???

The emperor
Space Marines
Chaos gods
Tau
Necrons
Nids
Eldar (Everything except the name)
Primarches
Chaos legions

Do you want me to go on - that list could get bloody long very fast with very original GW ideas and backstory.


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

Copying GW is pretty lame if you ask me, why go with the copycats when getting the real thing is so much better.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

GW dont have a competitor in mantic, when mantic has hundreds of stores all over the world and its own original systems then they can be taken seriously as a competitor, till then they are just pretenders copying GW, i think they get too much credit for what they do, yes they produce minis for alot less than GW which is a great positive but they have to be cause they are not level pegging with or better than GW minis,but thats pretty much the end of the story, the models are not as good, there is less choice,less units,less choice on the sprue. I would be surprised if they have even 1% of the GW turn over.If your a gamer first and your models are simply gaming tokens and you dont want to invest a lot of money then Mantic are an idea company for you,but that does not make them a competitor, and if GW really thought they were a competitor they would buy them out, chuck a few million at them and they would soon go away.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> , and if GW really thought they were a competitor they would buy them out, chuck a few million at them and they would soon go away.


Or, 'sack' a lot of their staff and model designers would would then apply for jobs at manic, wait for themselves to become invaluable to the company and then all quit enmass and get re-employed back at GW.

Because that hasnt happened before.... :laugh:


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Well remember that MANTIC was up to make cheaper miniatures to use in ANY game you play; they started without a game system with an alternative of elves for the people that player high Elves or even Dark elves with some convertion. 

With sci-fi there would be the same, maybe not a copy-cat maybe with crazy-simple rules, but with miniatures that you could field in a 40K game to complete your armies or have modeling choices. 

As far as i concerned (i have mantic skeleton and zombies) they have pretty different scale, cause GW is more cartonish. 

With mantic i expect XENO enemies, more than space marines; they could make orcs, shooting blue prune face aliens, space elves; but no space marines as we know... but hope a space guard (humans with rifles) that could fill your imperial guard needs. Easily they could make demons, maybe not tyranids but something alike between Alien xenomorph (you know from the sigoney weaver movie) and tyranids, maybe some starship troopers. 

At first they look to come with the forbidden SQUAT as a space dwarf, great! many people would be happy to collect them again, but this won´t really make them come to GW WH40k rules or a new codex. 

I won´t like if they come with a particular new alien type like space chimps.... they are cool but common!


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Sorry???
> 
> The emperor
> Space Marines
> ...


So, taking aside space marines, that I pointed out were original, you have evil gods, which are not unique, aliens and robots.

None of which are unique.

You seem to confuse fluff with game.

If you are going to argue that making a 10 man squad is copying, then dont shift the argument to fluff when it suits.

In terms of games, robots (battletech precedes 40k), aliens , elves are not unique.

Note: I never said the fluff was not unique, but you are claiming the game (that you havent seen) is a copy of 40K.

In game, space marines aside, the weapons, aliens, robots , laser guns, is not unique to 40k, all existed before it, so claiming another game that has robots laser guns and aliens is somehow a rip off seems , again , ludicrous.

And once again, why disparage something that will benefit the hobby?
More choice is good, its good for consumers, and its good for the companies involved.

The worst thing that happened to GW was becoming 80% of the market with no one to challenge and push them.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Seriously - I need this again...

:headbutt:


Nope - that wasnt enough:headbutt::headbutt:

Are you intentionally misunderstanding me, or am I typing in a foreign language?



nogginthenog said:


> So, taking aside space marines, that I pointed out were original, you have evil gods, which are not unique, aliens and robots.


When you break it down NOTHING is original - EVERYTHING has been done before. ITs not what you have, its how you put it all together that makes it original.

If you read books on script writing and novel writing you will find there are something like 7 stories that can be told in an infinate number of ways. And those 7 stories fit any book or film ever made.

So, space marines are not 'original' either - there are plenty of things that pre-date 40K that have element of space marines in them, that when combined produce the space marine that we have now.

so please, dont say that, is just a useless arguement.





> None of which are unique.
> 
> You seem to confuse fluff with game.
> 
> If you are going to argue that making a 10 man squad is copying, then dont shift the argument to fluff when it suits.


I will spell this out in PLAIN ENGLISH (which I thought I had already done)


1) IT is NOT individual things that make a game 'unique'. WOW has elves, LOTRS have elves - they are BOTH very different elves.

2) I did not say that GW have some 'god given right' to be the sole users of 10 man squads - what I did say is that it typifies GW games. Therefore, other games that use 10 man squads AND (and that AND is all important) use lots of other similar things from the 40K universe are copying GW. Just using 'space elves' is not copying GW - using space elves, orcs and dwarves is.




> Note: I never said the fluff was not unique, but you are claiming the game (that you havent seen) is a copy of 40K.


No, I didnt. I have never ONCE mentioned the rules for the game. I think you are adding that in for me (love it when people put words in my mouth for me, saves me the effort of talking, or typing in this case).

What we know about the game is that they are going to produce armies for humans (Well thats obvious), space elves (ok), space orcs (erm...) and space dwarves (ah...).

Thats where the 'copying' tag comes in.


And, for the record - the rules of the game and the fluff are infinately connected - when you talk about one, you talk about the other (Accept in RAW/RAI arguements obviously).


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

As we say with mantic fantasy rules it would be

..."is like 40k but with simplier rules"....

warpath


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

I just wish they had copy heavy gear instead, but the size of wh40k. That way I could have tau battlesuit replacement. Heavy gear battlesuits are so small


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Seriously - I need this again...
> 
> :headbutt:
> 
> ...


I see, when someone points out errors, try to belittle them.

I've noticed you do it before.

I'll ask again, in plain english.

You said the game was a rip off of 40k

You havent seen it, you know nothing about it, other than it has space dwarves and space elves, only one of which 40k has, and off you go like its some bad thing.

Again, why do you think more than one sci fi squad based wargame is a bad thing?

As a consumer, you should relish it.


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

didn't 40k had space dwarves? 

I think for the consumer variety is better, things like what privateer press is doing. Not this IMO


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

ashikenshin said:


> didn't 40k had space dwarves?
> 
> I think for the consumer variety is better, things like what privateer press is doing. Not this IMO


It did have space dwarves.

It doesnt now.

that is why suggesting space dwaves is somehow a blatant copy is ironic.

All we know about this game is it has space elves, space dwarves, and vehicles.

Nothing else.

To conclude that is somehow a rip off of 40K is, to be polite, jumping the gun somewhat.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Actually, I take offence at that. I dont 'belittle' people at all - I am extremely SARCASTIC to people who accuse me of saying things that I simply havent said.

I tend to find that nicer than simply accusing them of lying - but if you prefer that, I can do that instead.



nogginthenog said:


> You said the game was a rip off of 40k


Yes, and here is your plain and simple answer. (which I have said many times in this thread already so I am simply repeating myself now.)

If you are using SPACE ELVES, SPACE ORCS and SPACE DWARVES then from a very superficial perspective it is impossible to look at that and say they ARENT ripping GW off.

If the game comes out and the space elves are short lived, 2' tall people with wings and the space orcs are intelligent thoughtful and peaceful race and the space dwarves live on top of mountains and fly kites - THEN I shall retract everything I have said and praise them for the their originality.

Pigs will turn blue, fly and mate with hippos before any of that happens.



> Again, why do you think more than one sci fi squad based wargame is a bad thing?
> 
> As a consumer, you should relish it.


Why?

When babylon 5 came out I called it for what it was - a rip off of deep space 9. Why should I do anything else?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

nogginthenog said:


> You said the game was a rip off of 40k
> 
> You havent seen it, you know nothing about it, other than it has space dwarves and space elves, only one of which 40k has, and off you go like its some bad thing.
> 
> ...


We dont know its going to be a rip off 40k,but the rumours have mentioned the fisrt four races and 3 of those races are fantasy races, which is exactly how 40k started in 87,by taking fantasy races and then making them scifi fantasy, add to this that when mantic entered the games market they took warhammer fantasy and copied it, now i know your argument that those races were copied by GW etc etc, but when you produce very obvious high elf clone minis including naming them in a way that is an obvious nod to the opposite units in warhammer fantasy, basing them the same, giving them the same weapon loads outs and command squads and even similar colour schemes and then they hire a GW staff writer to pen the rules, this is the reason why Mantic is jumping on the band wagon.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@ Maidel - I half agree with your train of thought through this thread. GW did essentially pillage the best sci-fi, fantasy, and history to make their background. Granted, GW's synthesis over time has become increasingly unique. In that way I agree with you.

On the other hand, simultaneously claiming:
A) That nothing is (or can be) new and it has all been done before
and
B) A given synthesis of backgrounds is totally unique
. . . seems mutually exclusive.


Other side . . . 
I make no guesses about the exact nature of Mantic's game, it is likely irrelevant. And further, I have absolutely no problem if they are marketing to GW's gamers. Mantic has identified a need - cheaper viable miniatures, and they're trying to meet that need. As a company it behooves them to meet that need in as generic a way as possible to ensure they do not step on any IP-legal toes.

Also I agree that PP seems to be in a good direction. Previous companies who have tried to 'out-warhammer' games workshop or compete directly have typically lost. And staking out a separate but vaguely similar market area isn't a bad idea. PP is almost certainly marketing to the same people who play 40k, or because it is different enough to people who hate 40k - of which there is no small contingent.

And example of trying to function the same way as GW was Target Games' Warzone and Chronopia franchises. They were parallel games to 40k and fantasy. They were based in the Mutant Chronicles future universe and an original past/fantasy setting, had nothing to do with the GW style of scifi/fantasy. And while they made good models and awesome games, they weren't sustainable. 

It makes more business sense for a game company starting out to market to the dominant company's audience. That audience already wants the product, and of course wants it cheaper. The strength of the bigger co. (GW in this case) is almost working for the marketing wing of the smaller co.



And as it has been pointed out a few times . . . *THAT* is how to spur companies on to make better more affordably-priced products.

Cheers,
Kreuger



p.s. - Just to be a pain in the ass, because i love pointing out where GW get their ideas . . . 



. | .
*GW's IP*
|
*Source Material*

. | .
The emperor|Dune + The Bible
Space Marines | Starship Troopers' Mobile Infantry
Chaos gods | Michael Moorecock's Dukes of Hell from the Elric of Melniboné series
Tau | Anime-bots + new agey space aliens
Necrons | T-800s + Egyptian design
Nids | Giger's Alien + Starship Troopers' bugs
Eldar (Everything except the name) | Space elves + Gaelic mythology
Primarches | Biblical Archangels + Starship Troopers' Mobile Infantry
Chaos legions | Evil + Starship Troopers' Mobile Infantry
_Chaos Star_
| Michael Moorecock designed and first used it as the symbol of the forces of Chaos with a capital C
_The Imperium_
| Mix equal parts Star Wars empire (think early 80's before any of the droid armies and clones) with the
_Mote in God's Eye_
(feudal space faring empire) or dune here too
_The Warp/Realm of Chao_
s | Straight out of Michael Moorecock's books
Daemon Weapons | Elric's sword StormBringer - also straight out of Michael Moorecock's books
. | .


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Every car after the Model T is a copy of it and every company that sells cars just jumped on the bandwagon. How many of you drive Fords?

Compition keeps prices down & quality up. It's good for most other industries, why not miniture wargaming?

I love GW & WH40K as much (if not more then) the next guy but I appreciate what Manitc is trying to do. Don't like they're minis, don't buy them. Bow down & worship the almight god company GW, only buy their products, in their stores, for their prices. If you like lots of models and are willing to take a step down in quality for fill out your rank & file troops, Mantic may be an option for you.

I like options :victory:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> @ Maidel - I half agree with your train of thought through this thread. GW did essentially pillage the best sci-fi, fantasy, and history to make their background. Granted, GW's synthesis over time has become increasingly unique. In that way I agree with you.
> 
> On the other hand, simultaneously claiming:
> A) That nothing is (or can be) new and it has all been done before
> ...


You indavertedly made my point for me.

No story is unique, no idea is unique, no concept is unique - everything is built standing on the shoulders of greats (some famous scientist said it, sure it was newton or einstien).

Basically what I am saying is that EVERYTHING borrows ideas from different places, but its what you do with those ideas and how you combine them that makes them 'feel' unique.


EG - fantasy story about a small bloke and a ring with elves and dragons. Rip off of the lotrs.

Fantasy story about a small bloke and dragons and elves and a lance or two - not ripping off lotrs.

Im not sure I am making my point very well - its FINE to use similar concepts and ideas, its fine to 'base' your work on someone elses (its bloody hard not to). But basically 'copying' the flavour of the month isnt ok.

Does that makes sense?

And the reason why your table made my point for me (and showed me a few things to look up later!) is that although they borrowed from different places, its the combinations that make them unique.

EG - are the 'tau' just battle tech/gundam/anime rip offs? Hell no - who in those is blue, or has weird beaked mercs working for them, or goes on about the greater good, or has any of the transports and space craft they do. Answer is, none - therefore the tau are a 'unique' concept for GW, but the individual parts are not unique.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Actually, I take offence at that. I dont 'belittle' people at all - I am extremely SARCASTIC to people who accuse me of saying things that I simply havent said.
> 
> I tend to find that nicer than simply accusing them of lying - but if you prefer that, I can do that instead.
> 
> ...




You are tying yourself in knots.

you agreed with me two posts ago that aliens, elves, and space isnt original to GW.

Now you are saying space elves and space orks proves its a 40K copy.

There are no space dwarves in 40K in case you havent noticed.

We are talking about a game you have no insight into, have no idea about its rules, and claiming its a rip off of 40k, because it shares one race with that game.

There is no foundation for claiming its a rip off of 40k because it is a sci fi game, you are basing this one absolutely no data at all.

More products in the market is a good thing because competition is what breeds innovation.



GW are resting on their laurels because thats all they have to do.

Alternatives benefit everyone in the hobby, more bodies involved in a social hobby, more innovation from the manufacturers, better products for us.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> You are tying yourself in knots.


No, Im not, Im not going to argue with you - you are simply twisting everything I say in an attempt to discredit my point of view.




> you agreed with me two posts ago that aliens, elves, and space isnt original to GW.


Read my post above.




> Now you are saying space elves and space orks proves its a 40K copy.


Read my post above.


> There are no space dwarves in 40K in case you havent noticed.


their current absence does not mean that everything GW wrote about the squats simply doesnt exist anymore.



> There is no foundation for claiming its a rip off of 40k because it is a sci fi game, you are basing this one absolutely no data at all.
> 
> More products in the market is a good thing because competition is what breeds innovation.
> 
> ...


Are you a marketing spokes person for either the competition comission, or for mantic?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> EG - fantasy story about a small bloke and a ring with elves and dragons. Rip off of the lotrs.
> 
> Fantasy story about a small bloke and dragons and elves and a lance or two - not ripping off lotrs.
> 
> ...


But Dragon Lance has Elves and Dwarfs and Halflings and so on and so forth in a fantasy setting with magic, so it is a rip off of LOTR, it even has half elves the rip off bastards!

Mantic using fantasy races in a futuristic setting is nothing new, as we all know as 40K fans. It's what they then do with that setting that will make the difference. Maybe they will have a clear cut good vs. evil approach? Maybe they will have the races divided amongst themselves, all trying to carve out their own small empires, maybe it will all be set within a single solar system.
Just using the races they are doesn't make them any bigger rip offs than anyone else, by your own reasoning.

(Dragon Lance vs. LOTR really was a poor example!)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> But Dragon Lance has Elves and Dwarfs and Halflings and so on and so forth in a fantasy setting with magic, so it is a rip off of LOTR, it even has half elves the rip off bastards!
> 
> (Dragon Lance vs. LOTR really was a poor example!)


OK - if you say things like this one more time I will simply report you as a troll. You cannot be either that incapable of reading, nor am I that incoherrant.

A RIP OFF is where you do nothing but copy another person work.

Dragon Lance is NOT a rip off of lord of the rings - it uses many similar 'fantasy' elements, but the stories are completely different, the only similarity is some of the races that they use (And they are far from being identical!)

Not to mention that a good 50% of the dragon lance books revolve around gods, and In LOTRS the is utterly no religion at all (that was intentional as Tolkien and CS lewis were very good friends and the Lion the witch and the wardrobe was a metaphor for christianity).


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Heh, I understand your point completely, and on that topic I was agreeing. The table wasn't an attempt to disprove you. It was more because I enjoy reminding people where this stuff comes from. And I agree, changing the proportions in the recipe changes the whole flavor (To carry the metaphor to an extreme). Where I disagree and maybe I didn't elucidate this well, was that if somebody else comes along borrowing from the same sources and comes up with something similar in flavor that isn't 'stealing' or 'jumping on the bandwagon', its forming a genre. Granted, I don't think that is Mantic is doing - but on principle, that's where I disagree with you. The recipe sets the flavor not the content.

If a company decided to make a background where there was a star spanning empire of Germanic Nibelung dwarves I doubt anyone would raise an eyebrow, but I can understand the eyebrows ratcheting up at Assyrian influenced evil fantasy dwarves. That's pretty specific.

If somebody was trying to reproduce the whole flavor and call it original that would raise some skepticism.

Though this is leading inevitably in the direction that, if you rip-off enough other people's concepts and mash them together, eventually the new melange will be original, or at least feel that way. I find that distressing. ( . . . Perhaps that's the core of Post-modern angst.)

Cheers,
K


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Heh, I understand your point completely, and on that topic I was agreeing. The table wasn't an attempt to disprove you. It was more because I enjoy reminding people where this stuff comes from. And I agree, changing the proportions in the recipe changes the whole flavor (To carry the metaphor to an extreme). Where I disagree and maybe I didn't elucidate this well, was that if somebody else comes along borrowing from the same sources and comes up with something similar in flavor that isn't 'stealing' or 'jumping on the bandwagon', its forming a genre. Granted, I don't think that is Mantic is doing - but on principle, that's where I disagree with you. The recipe sets the flavor not the content.


Good good. Glad we are on the same page. And, in fact, I do agree with the second part. If (as I said pages before) if they turn out with elves that are short lived and fat, and short but thin dwards that like music and dancing and intelligent orcs - AND THEY MAKE IT WORK - then fantastic - I was utterly wrong and will appologise profusely.

But I think we both agree that they wont do that 




> Though this is leading inevitably in the direction that, if you rip-off enough other people's concepts and mash them together, eventually the new melange will be original, or at least feel that way. I find that distressing. ( . . . Perhaps that's the core of Post-modern angst.)


Ok - you lost me at post-modern... but other than that, I 'think' I agree with you. If you took 1 bar of music from 100 songs and fitted them together in a way that works, then is that 'new' or simply ripping 100 people off - hard to say.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Maidel said:


> No, Im not, Im not going to argue with you - you are simply twisting everything I say in an attempt to discredit my point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you have nothing to add.

You know nothing about the game, barring it shares a single race (so far) with 40K but its a rip off.

And now we move on from attempted belittlement to trying to imply someone is a shill.

Good debating skills there. 

Or are you actually going to explain the detailed insider knowledge of this game you must have to make such assumptions.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> So, you have nothing to add.
> 
> You know nothing about the game, barring it shares a single race (so far) with 40K but its a rip off.
> 
> ...


I have pointed out that all of this is based on SUPERFICIAL assumptions. At least 3 times.

AND I have said 3 times that if I am wrong I will appologise - hell - you can hold me to this - if it turns out that I am wrong - I wll not only write to mantic to appologise - I will start a thread named 'ASSUME made and ASS out of U and ME'.

Im so confident of that fact - how confident are you that the game wont be a GW rip off?


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm fairly sure it will borrow heavily from GW. I think the game itself will be irrelevant to the miniatures, other than as a pretext to avoid a lawsuit.

As for post-modernism, its not terribly descriptive unless it is qualified, but broadly it espouses that everything is relative and everything has been done before. There is a ton written on the subject(for instance the wikipedia entry is quite long). In context of this wargaming discussion, I'm pointing a finger at that as a mode of thinking.

Applying that broad school of thought to wargame development, there is nothing intrinsically new to be created - we can now only remix the ideas that came before in different proportions, and attempt to make a new flavor by juxtaposition or ingredients.

The idea that nothing is new and nothing is objectively meaningful is quite a cause for reaction, especially in politics and religion. And I guess by extension the geo-political economics of wargame miniature companies.

*Shrug* It's something to think about.

Kreuger


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> OK - if you say things like this one more time I will simply report you as a trollReally?. You cannot be either that incapable of reading, nor am I that incoherrant.
> 
> A RIP OFF is where you do nothing but copy another person work.
> 
> ...


What I was trying to point out is that all Mantic has done is use the same races, well, two of them anyway. 
So, other than using two races which are constants within the fantasy genre how have they ripped off GW?
Have Mantic said they are going to be using a GrimDark setting?
Have Mantic said they are going to develop a setting where a dying Emperor rules over an Empire of religious insanity?

Yes there are similarities, they are plain for all to see, but as you said yourself its what they do with the setting that will make all the difference. 
Just having space elves is not enough for me to start screaming rip off.

(Does that get me reported?)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> What I was trying to point out is that all Mantic has done is use the same races, well, two of them anyway.


THREE of them, just because GW killed the squats does not mean it wasnt in their IP first.




> So, other than using two races which are constants within the fantasy genre how have they ripped off GW?


THREE races - and you made my point for me. You name another mainstream SCIFI world that uses FANTASY races as its starting point?



> Just having space elves is not enough for me to start screaming rip off.


Where was I SCREAMING anything?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok then, so all that makes GW unique is fantasy in space?

I think there's a bit more to it than that. 
Going back to your Dragon Lance/LOTR comparison. Early on, when the setting was in development anyone looking in could have been forgiven for thinking it was a rip off of LOTR. The setting had everything that LOTR had, the now classic fantasy races of human, elf, dwarf, halfling, orc, goblin and dragon. 
What they then went on to do with the setting changed that, they gave it their own depth, put their own spin on what is still essentially Tolkien's work. 

Now, fast-forward a decade or two and we have Mantic, a company that has decided to put fantasy races in space, an idea GW had ages ago. they could just copy GW, having a dystopian empire slowly dying due to threats from within and without or they could do what TSR did and take an existing idea and run with it, take it in a new and unique direction. 
Fantasy in space was done by GW but they did so much more than that, they created a a huge setting that is not reliant on space elves alone. 

As for the screaming, I never said you did, I said it wasn't enough for *me* to start screaming rip off.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Guys it's important to remember here that we don't know anything about the game system, other than it will be a circular based game (round bases ala gw) 

What we do know about the setting is that there will be humans and dwarfs and elves and orcs in space. But you're forgetting there will be at least 8, and as many as 12 races in this game, including some mantic are claiming as unique. 

So it could transpire that in the warpath universe, space lamas are the ruling race and they have legions of cybernetic turkeys to fight their wars against the dwarfs, who are only so small because they come from a radioactive planet. 

The point is, until it is released, you _cannot_ say it is a 40k rip off. Yes, it is clearly aimed at the 40k players, but that is because GW is continually alienating people due to their price rises or their fluff changes (Matt ward) 

If you were a car maker who noticed a town dominated by a single car manufacturer that produced cars, while a high quality, were not so high a quality that it justified their near extortionate prices. Wouldn't you want to fill the gap in the market by providing cheap cars, that may not be as high quality but are more than adequate for the job?

And as pointed out before, yes, mantic does not have the quality of GW at the moment, but they have not been around as long, don't have the resource to put in to production like GW do at the moment. Look at Krudger. Here you've got a fantastic orc hero, along with two other great little models, for less than the price of this shit.

Mantic are a definite competitor to GW. At their young age they have accomplished a great deal, and the fact that such passionate discussions about them (and their rivaling GW) are in existence, it should serve to prove that GW should take notice of Mantic.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Ok then, so all that makes GW unique is fantasy in space?
> .


:headbutt:

Yes - thats exactly what I said.


Sigh.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Speaking as someone who has helped play test Mantics fantasy game, Kings of War, (and hopefully getting in on the play testing of Warpath) KOW has a very different play style to Warhammer and I am expecting the same for Warpath v 40k.
Sure, the concept will be similar - futuristic battles in space with people shooting at each other - but the mechanics will likely continue to revolve around the accumulation of 'nerve' as seen in KOW. Also it is likely to be defined by it's simplicity - KOW rules are about 8 pages long.
This is merely educated speculation, but both systems will have conceptual similarities but will likely feel and play very differently I am sure (anyone who plays warhammer and KOW are likely to agree).


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> :headbutt:
> 
> Yes - thats exactly what I said.
> 
> ...


I am sorry for you then, I would recomend some of the great books that Black Library have released, the Horus heresy ones are very good. Do a little digging and you will find that there is quite a lot more to GW IP than Fantasy in space, they've had 30 odd years to work on it after all.

With such a narrow view of what makes 40K the setting it is I'm not really suprised that you would see Mantic as such a threat.


Sigh (not sure why that's there but hey, when in Rome!)


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

Woot then, Warpath is going to be totally original ...

on another note, isn't cavattore responsible for the total stinker that is the c: chaos space marines? If he is then I don't know why anyone is excited about this.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I am sorry for you then, I would recomend some of the great books that Black Library have released, the Horus heresy ones are very good. Do a little digging and you will find that there is quite a lot more to GW IP than Fantasy in space, they've had 30 odd years to work on it after all.
> 
> With such a narrow view of what makes 40K the setting it is I'm not really suprised that you would see Mantic as such a threat.
> 
> ...


OH COME ON.

Look - that was quite obviously me being sarcastic - I put the 'headbutt wall' smilie and the 'sigh' at the end of it.

Seriously - you are just looking for an arguement - and Ive had enough.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Seriously - you are just looking for an arguement - and Ive had enough.


I never thought I'd see the day.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> OH COME ON.
> 
> Look - that was quite obviously me being sarcastic - I put the 'headbutt wall' smilie and the 'sigh' at the end of it.
> 
> Seriously - you are just looking for an arguement - and Ive had enough.


No one is looking for an argument and I think everyone has had enough. 

I'll repost what I put up in the thread I started that hasn't already been said here because that thread is dead:

Warpath, Mantic's sci-fi game will be released in October!

A Beta will be released in the summer for public testing.

Beasts of War will have a Warpath week coming soon.

B.O.W Backstage pass members will get a few weeks of Alpha testing.

3 Armies will come with the public beta.

The scale confirmed at 28mm (of course)

Warpath will be a big battle game, in line with Mantic's ethos. But it will be able to scale, you will be able to play with 2-3 units, or massive armies. This follows what they've done with K.O.W.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Mantic are a breath of fresh air imo, 
we can hope anything that challenges GW is only is going to make them better and maybe curb the hungry cash beast tendencies they have been displaying since achieving sector dominance .

I wish Mantic well and look forward to watching them evolve and move on to a unique and interesting path of their own making.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

ashikenshin said:


> Woot then, Warpath is going to be totally original ...
> 
> on another note, isn't cavattore responsible for the total stinker that is the c: chaos space marines? If he is then I don't know why anyone is excited about this.


Yep, but now he is free from the direction imposed on him by GW and free to think, he has also invented 'Kings Of War' - a fun game system - well worth a play - and you can get the rules for free from the Mantic website!k:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> OH COME ON.
> 
> Look - that was quite obviously me being sarcastic - I put the 'headbutt wall' smilie and the 'sigh' at the end of it.
> 
> Seriously - you are just looking for an arguement - and Ive had enough.


No, I was disagreeing with you and refusing to back down at the threat of being reported as a troll just for not sharing your opinion.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

How about everyone take a deep breathe, leave things where they are and stay on topic? Remember kiddies, play nice :grin:

On topic though. I'm hoping to see some sci fi civilians released for Warpath. I think a plastic civilians kit is something that, while not everyone would see the point in, would definitely set mantic apart from other companies.


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## ashikenshin (Mar 25, 2010)

Yup civilians would rock, maybe add something to protect or collateral damage.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

nogginthenog said:


> So now 10 man squads is GW(TM)
> 
> Do you not see how ludicrous that is, or are you suggesting the UK military (squad size 10 led by an NCO) copied GW.


I've only ever been in sections of 8 ;-)

I'm looking forward to it, after all, variety is the splice of rope!

edit:

40k is massively like starwars though, one human emperor, leading a huge army of lightly armoured imperial army (IG) and his legions (yes legions) of stormtroopers, humans in armour, trying to conquer the galaxy and keep it under their rule. They dislike aliens intensely too, which is why they're all human, and also, they're all English... Much like the emperor in 40k.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> I've only ever been in sections of 8 ;-)
> 
> I'm looking forward to it, after all, variety is the splice of rope!
> 
> ...


You're almost correct. In the later years of the empire the stormtrooper corps began accepting non humans into their ranks


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

It's been a while since I read any star wars stuff ;-) I'm a little rusty! Would love to have seen space marines kick the piss out the ewoks though!


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

I am very open minded about this whole thing and am eager to see what Mantic have to offer. I really don't understand why certain individuals are getting so steamed when there is only scant information available. Speculation is just that so until the facts are known it would be nice if folk could stay on topic and not fill numerous pages with pointless bickering. Amusing as it may be to see you verbally beating each other up it is, quite frankly, very off-putting when you have to wade through pages of bitching to get some solid information.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> It's been a while since I read any star wars stuff ;-) I'm a little rusty! Would love to have seen space marines kick the piss out the ewoks though!


That would have been most epic!

I'd also finally like to see some decent female sculpts, I probably wouldn't use the, but its another gap in the market they could fill.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Just got my hands on the Warpath Alpha rules. 

First impressions - 

Rules are a little longer, 19 pages.

*Seems quite similar to K.o.W:*
Uses the IGOUGO system. The stats are essentially the same except units individual ranged attack distance is included in the profile, and the "to hit" stat has been combined into one stat for melee and ranged attacks.

It uses the same nerve system as K.o.W for damage.

Models are formed into ranks. "Team", "Section" and "Platoon" replace troop, regiment and horde. 

*Unit types are: *

Infantry
Heroes/Monsters
Aircraft
Armour
Ordnance

Some other things to note:

Armour has it's own nerve system. 

Two lists exist at the moment. These are called the Forgefathers and the Marauders

Feel free to post any queries and I'll do my best to find out the answers.


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## BeastsofWar (Apr 1, 2009)

So far my favourite part of the rules is the simplicity vs completeness.

Alessio seems to have nailed that pretty well.

Its also quite fast to play (less flicking through rulebooks) so in theory should scale up well.

And the fact that it already covers all classifications of vehicles, this really is what the Apocalypse rules should have been.

Will be interesting to see how it shapes up over the summer!

BoW Warren


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Two current confirmed army lists for this system so far are:

*ForgeFathers* (space dwarves) and the list includes:
TROOPS:

Steel Warriors 
Grizzlers
ForgeGuard
Hel Valkyr 
Scrappers

ARMOUR:
Light Drakkar
Heavy Drakker
Fire-Wyrm

AIRCRAFT:
Rook

HEROES/MONSTERS:
Iron Ancestor
Huscarl
Chief Scrapper

ORDANANCE:
HailStorm Cannon
Heavy Heat Cannon
*
MARAUDERS* - (Orks)

INFANTRY:
Grunts
Rifle Grunts
Heavies
Jumpers
Stunts
Stunt Bots

ORDANANCE:
Big Shells Gun
Big Tank-Killer Gun

ARMOUR:
Attackster
Grunt Shifter

AIRCRAFT:
Fighter

HEROES/MONSTERS:
Captain
BattleBot

Make of it what you will - looking forward to seeing the models!

Also other hinted races are:

The Corporation
Rebels
Asterians
The 8th Race


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm looking forward to the models, but I most likely won't play the game as I'm not sold on the rules as of yet.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

I will be proxying up some of my GW stuff and see how this plays. I have enjoyed KOW so hoping for good things!


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Like I said earlier, I am open minded about this and as Slaneeshy says you are going to be able to proxy the models if Mantics kit isn't to your taste. Say what you will about GW's rules, prices and all the other shit that is happening with them at the moment you have to admit, their plastics range is probably one of the best on the market and great for converting.

Keep the info coming Slaneeshy. When are they releasing the rules to joe public?


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> Like I said earlier, I am open minded about this and as Slaneeshy says you are going to be able to proxy the models if Mantics kit isn't to your taste. Say what you will about GW's rules, prices and all the other shit that is happening with them at the moment you have to admit, their plastics range is probably one of the best on the market and great for converting.
> 
> Keep the info coming Slaneeshy. When are they releasing the rules to joe public?


I *think* around August?


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Yep, no later than August for the rules to be made available for general download from Mantic (but possibly as early as mid-July). Beast of War have arranged some sort of deal and they are already available from them if you subscribe to the back stage area (or are otherwise involved in the play testing). I don't want to upset Mantic or break any forum rules by posting them at this stage...but they are different enough from 40k to make fans of 40k think they are playing something different. It is important to note these rules are the early version and the exciting thing about being around at the birth of a new wargame is that Mantic are genuinely interested in the feedback (some of our clubs suggestions for KOW and the army lists have already been adopted for the next rule phase).

There will also be a physical 50 page rule book available to buy next year once play testing is done with fluff and background etc. Unclear if all the army lists will be included or if there will be a Codex style book to buy/download. I imagine they will deliberately price it at around half the cost of the 40k rule set, and the box set is going to be ForgeFathers and Mauraders.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

View attachment 13555


A piece of concept art for the ForgeFathers. If this translates into the models - i'll be very excited!


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

Steampunky dual gatling pistols? Thete's nothing I don't like about that =D


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> Just got my hands on the Warpath Alpha rules.
> 
> First impressions -
> 
> ...


Reaper, I have never played KoW or know anything about the IGOUGO system...could you sum these things up in a nutshell for the uninitiated? 

Cheers


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> Reaper, I have never played KoW or know anything about the IGOUGO system...could you sum these things up in a nutshell for the uninitiated?
> 
> Cheers


In an IGOUGO system, one player does everything, (moving, shooting, assault) and the other player doesn't have any action. Then it switches.

One of the biggest things about K.o.W is nerve. Damage isn't done like it is in 40k. In K.o.W units accumulate damage points instead of wounds. These are then used to test nerve, which represents the troops morale, overall strength of numbers and their prowess. It is tested like so like so:

Nerve Test = 2D6 + number of Damage points inflicted – Nerve (a stat for each unit) ± Modifiers (things like banners, and special rules)

There is then a chart for the results:


Result Effect
7 or less Steady (fight as normal)
8 to 9 Wavering (can't do anything the next turn)
10 or more Rout! (Get removed from play)


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Yep, individual models don't get removed - the entire unit stays until it is routed when it loses it's nerve - so no messing about with individual armour saves etc - simples!


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Cheers guys.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

For those interested, the Beta rules are going to be released next friday - 1st July, baring any last minute problems.
Mantic are keen to get feedback so let them know if you have any ideas on the system!
August should see the release of the first wave of The Marauders, followed by The ForgeFathers.

"The Marauder civilization are a relatively new race of space-faring Orx that spend their time raiding other systems, practicing space piracy, and above all selling their services as mercenaries to anybody that is willing to hire them."


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

The next friday is June 24? Ah well, friday next week, then. Things sound interesting enough to at least try once...


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Next Friday, as in not this Friday!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Hrm, interesting... signed up for the newsletter so I get a copy of the Beta rules. Hopefully I'll be able to give these a go.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

I finally managed to play their fantasy rules a few weeks ago and really liked them so hopefully when I get a chance to play warpath I'll like that too. 

And for anyone who hasn't seen (I don't recall seeing it on heresy yet) here's a concept sketch of some artillery:










Also, mantic will be releasing the first images of the forgefather minis once they reach 3000 likes on Facebook, at the time of writing they only need 70 likes so get over there and give them a click. Hopefully they will live up to the hype and not look gash :S


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

heh heh, Thudd Gun if ever I saw one.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> heh heh, Thudd Gun if ever I saw one.


For sure! I really like the treads rather than wheels. Hopefully it'll be easily converted for all those IG players out there. 

I'm really excited to see the minis now. Everything I've heard from people who've seen them in person praises the sharpness and detail of the sculpts so hopefully we won't be disappointed!


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