# Lorgar not sure whether primarchs can die?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Read this post on another forum...really interesting. What do you guys think? 



> So, have listened to Butchers Nails about 5 times throught now, and something struck me on here after reading another post in the BN thread.
> 
> Lorgar is corrected by Angron that Primarchs CAN die, after he was theorising about it, using Ferrus as the example. Now, this may be massive conjecture, but this would mean that 2nd and 11th hadn't been killed in the traditional sense, otherwise it would have come as no surprise to Lorgar.
> 
> I know we get a lot of threads about 2nd and 11th, but thought this was interesting.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Another theory is that they were gotten rid of in a way Lorgar wasn't there to see.

Magnus talks to Mortarion about how the last time 9 brothers gathered together was for the (supposed) extermination of one of their brother Legions. Mortarion tells Magnus to be quiet because they were supposed to never speak of it again.

Perhaps this all happened before Lorgar was found? Or after he was found, but for one reason or another, Lorgar wasn't able to make it to the destruction of the 2nd/11th's Legion and Primarch.

To be fair, though, I haven't listened to Butcher's Nail. I'm getting on it now.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I haven't listened to Butcher's Nail but it makes sense that Lorgar doesn't know as I imagine the 2nd and 11th legions records were wiped from existence for whatever reason and even the primarchs wouldn't know.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The conversation is very...odd. I'll write out the conversation here. They're talking about Angron's butcher's nail.

Lorgar: They [the Butcher's nail] can not be removed without killing you. I have no intention of trying. Even if it is possible for us to die, you will die with those wretched things in your skull.

Angron: You know we can die. Ferrus is dead.

Lorgar: I keep forgetting that. Events are proceeding so very quickly, are they not?
~~~~~

I find it very odd that Lorgar isn't unsure about Primarchs being able to be killed, while just two sentences before he says that removing the Butcher's nail will kill Angron.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Interesting. I remember reading in The First Heretic, I believe, about when Argel Tal and some of his marines are taken to the past into the vaults where the primarchs were kept in their pods. One of them mentioned something about ending the 2nd and 11th and saving a whole lot of trouble in the future and saving Lorgar a lot of grief.

I'd imagine, they possibly weren't killed. Just banished to some god, oop sorry, I mean Emperor-forsaken place that no one knows about besides the Emperor himself.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I'd imagine, they possibly weren't killed. Just banished to some god, oop sorry, I mean Emperor-forsaken place that no one knows about besides the Emperor himself.


If that was true, they must have done something absolutely crazy.

After all, the Emperor recalled the Night Lords to supress Horus and his 4 Legions. Keep in mind the Night Lords just _blew up their planet_ and were under censor for being absolutely crazy.

So if the missing Legions were hiding in some corner you would have thought the Emperor would have used them? Unless they did something even crazier.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I've not heard the audio drama, but do you think it has anything to do with Lorgars interpretation of death?

Hes a religious zealot, to him people have souls, therefore an implied afterlife. Is he implying that the nail has become such a part of Angron that even his soul now carries the scars? The conversation also implies that Ferrus's soul still is floating around, and would add credence that when the emperor killed Horus he obliterated his soul.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Like try and rape a load of silent sisters? They wouldn't have been heard...


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Barnster said:


> Is he implying that the nail has become such a part of Angron that even his soul now carries the scars?


Is there any doubt of that? Lorgar grew to like the Nails, he felt comfort in unrepressed rage. That's some serious spiritual damage in my opinion.

I still don't understand how they even worked, a Primarch's brain doesn't work like a human's. At best they should have had some effect other than their designed effect, at worst they should have left him a vegetable. It makes me wonder if there was some Chaotic influence here. The gladiator planet is certainly Khornate in appearance, though it is not explicitly said to be Khornate in actuality.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

randian said:


> Is there any doubt of that? Lorgar grew to like the Nails, he felt comfort in unrepressed rage. That's some serious spiritual damage in my opinion.
> 
> I still don't understand how they even worked, a Primarch's brain doesn't work like a human's. At best they should have had some effect other than their designed effect, at worst they should have left him a vegetable. It makes me wonder if there was some Chaotic influence here. The gladiator planet is certainly Khornate in appearance, though it is not explicitly said to be Khornate in actuality.


In the audio book, Lorgar says that the nails had reshaped Angron's brain's cartography. 

Maybe the slavers snagged him young enough that his brain matured and grew around the nails? Like how some landscappers grow trees around molds?


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## N U R G L E (May 17, 2012)

That is interesting. I theorize something will come from the lost legions. With a lot of fluff being butchered, it would only make sense to see them actually use the lost legions. NO ONE CARES about making a new legion. Its sooo boring, and those kids that usually do them quit within the first month anyway.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

hailene said:


> The conversation is very...odd. I'll write out the conversation here. They're talking about Angron's butcher's nail.
> 
> Lorgar: They [the Butcher's nail] can not be removed without killing you. I have no intention of trying. Even if it is possible for us to die, you will die with those wretched things in your skull.
> 
> ...


I thought it was just Lorgar showing his new understanding of the universe. He has come to understand what the warp means and (as occaisionally stated in the fluff) that human souls have no form in the warp, being devoured by it, unless they are tied to a string enough idea to 'assert' a presence. 

This is why he turned to worshipping chaos. The Emperor was destined to become a god, but not a god who will fulfill mankinds potential, only one that would enslave them to the Emperor's soul. With Chaos, emotions are played up, giving a presence in the warp. The worship of chaos allows the possibility if the human sould to continue functioning based around the emotions of the person. These emotions feed the chaos gods, but also ensure the survival of a humans warp presence. Chaos is worht worshipping because it presents the possibility of freeing mankind through the emotions it produces. The Emperor can only enslave mankind by getting it to feed his warp presence.

The bit about Primarchs not dieing is Lorgar believeing that the primarchs already have a strong enough warp presence and independence nto to simply be devoured. 

However the 'Butchers nails' encourage just a single emotion and no thinking, potentially destroying this. It is only when Lorgar realises that Angron is destined to be Khornes prince (or did the audio say son?) that he realises the Butchers nails are not killing Angron but focusing his most powerful emotions. He then stops saying that the implants are goign to kill his brother. He see's them as building Angron to something greater.

This is also the reason why Angron enters a trance adn dreams in combat. he is enterign the higher state of his pure emotions being freed from hsi body and showing his warp self. It is proof that angrons warp presence is powerful enough not to be just devoured, through the power of his emotions.

I doubt everyone will agree with this post, but the implications are that Lorgar does not see Ferrus as being dead but livign on in the warp, even though his mortal self is dead. He see's that Ferrus' warp self, created by the fact that Ferrus is partly a creature of chaos and the fact that he was a great and charismatic leader, would of forged a strong warp echo. it there for continues to survive. Lorgar believes all the primarchs have the potential to live on in the warp and this is true life, while mortal life is simply a moment that is to be used by an individual to form and develop their potential as an echo in the warp.

A similair thing happened with Fulgrim. The daemon believed he had banished Fulgrim, but the emotions of Fulgrim, exagerated through the warp meant that Fulgrims warp presence/soul was able to reclaim his body.

Basically he believe's, like most religions, that your actions as a mortal willl lead to everlasting life. Chaos actually gives this potential and so is somethign to be worshipped and embraced.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

The phrase used was "blood god's son". It's not clear that Lorgar has any idea at this time that personal daemonic ascension is possible, all the fluff so far only refers to his ideal of daemonic possession. Perhaps he thinks that Lorgar is destined to be a super-powered Gal Vorbak, and that the daemon will heal Angron's body like they do the bodies of the Gal Vorbak.

It was said that Angron couldn't sleep. In humans, that induces psychosis. No wonder Agron was a raging, violent SOB. Angron is delusional, however, when he thinks that the dream state he experiences, which is the only time he's free of the Nails, is a _benefit_ of them. I agree with Lorgar, the Nails would have eventually killed him.

I think it's clear that Lorgar's notion that the gods don't want their daemons totally possessing human hosts is supreme self-delusion.

I don't believe that anything less than Magnus-level psychic potential will allow a spirit to remain coherent in the warp without help. Even if he could, Ferrus would have been instantly beset-upon by packs of greater daemons eager to curry favor by killing him. I doubt he could have survived that, much less survive without being corrupted by the Chaos that is the essence of the environment he finds himself in.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I do believe Ferrus Survived, I also believe the primarchs in the Warp are nothing compared to how they are in the physical realm.

Immediately post of Ferrus death, the very fabric of reality was torn open and hands made of horrifying psychic energy clawed at Fulgrim to pull him into the void. However the Laer sword intervened and was able to protect Fulgrim.

It is my belief that the warp hole opened was done by Ferrus in his rage, and that the hands that proceeded from that hole were Ferrus. But it just goes to show how different Ferrus warp form was from his physical form, horrifying psychic claws came out of that hole.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

So not a papier mache head this time then?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, when Magnus's warp form when he busted into the Emp's basement seemed to be very daemonic looking in form. IIRC everyone but the Emperor was freaking out at the site of him.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> So not a papier mache head this time then?


Paper mache head? What, are you crazy or some thing?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lux said:


> Paper mache head? What, are you crazy or some thing?


Current speculation around the imperium stating that Ferrus is still alive in his mortal body, just with a mechanicum made head. I believe that is where he was getting the paper mache head.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

DeathJester921 said:


> Current speculation around the imperium stating that Ferrus is still alive in his mortal body, just with a mechanicum made head. I believe that is where he was getting the paper mache head.


Tell me more...this is...fascinating.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lux said:


> Tell me more...this is...fascinating.


You can look it up on lexicanum. I believe thats where I read it. Compiled from codexs and other sources, though I would take it with a grain of salt. Its the kind of site that is like wikipedia, so who knows who has typed what there.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Current speculation around the imperium stating that Ferrus is still alive in his mortal body, just with a mechanicum made head. I believe that is where he was getting the paper mache head.


LOL what?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> LOL what?


If you read my last post, you'd likely know where I got that.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, when Magnus's warp form when he busted into the Emp's basement seemed to be very daemonic looking in form. IIRC everyone but the Emperor was freaking out at the site of him.


Pretty standard for what warp entities (not necessarily Chaos entities, if Magnus proves the rule) look like manifesting in the Materium.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> LOL what?


My sentiments exactly, sounds like fan-fiction to me. Please list the book title along with the page numbers so I know where to look to verify if this is true (Regarding Ferrus being alive), he was decapitated by Fulgrim in the Novel "Fulgrim".


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lux said:


> My sentiments exactly, sounds like fan-fiction to me. Please list the book title along with the page numbers so I know where to look to verify if this is true (Regarding Ferrus being alive), he was decapitated by Fulgrim in the Novel "Fulgrim".


Wasn't a book dude. I told you. Looked it up on lexicanum. It may have been changed since then. I don't know, its been a while since I was last on Lexicanum. Has no one read my post before Monty's post?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

the Index astartes states that they (the iron hands) dont know what happened to their Primarch, it also says that some believe that the "wrecked" body of the Primarch was rescued and restored (in mars) though this is refuted by the iron hands themselves.

the Lexicanum says that Ferrus was beheaded (concurring to what the novels say), and so its pretty much definite that Ferrus is dead, especially with the fact horus saw the head.

i really doubt they have anything that could even remotely compare to the Emperors genious, especially given the fact that the mechanicum has long since devolved into superstition and the fact that mars wars nearly destroyed because of the heresy.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> the Index astartes states that they (the iron hands) dont know what happened to their Primarch, it also says that some believe that the "wrecked" body of the Primarch was rescued and restored (in mars) though this is refuted by the iron hands themselves.
> 
> the Lexicanum says that Ferrus was beheaded (concurring to what the novels say), and so its pretty much definite that Ferrus is dead, especially with the fact horus saw the head.
> 
> i really doubt they have anything that could even remotely compare to the Emperors genious, especially given the fact that the mechanicum has long since devolved into superstition and the fact that mars wars nearly destroyed because of the heresy.


Actually, on Lexicanum, I saw it under Iron Hands. Not Ferrus Manus. Still nice to see that Lexicanum got it from something.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> the Index astartes states that they (the iron hands) dont know what happened to their Primarch


I wonder how Ferrus got so far away from his troops that nobody saw his fight with Fulgrim. I suppose none of the witnesses survived the Massacre.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

The Blood Angels are a good example of the idea that all primarchs have a continued warp after their mortal forms are destroyed. The spirit and trauma of Sanguinius is continually re-manifested through the death company. The presence of the Sanguinor also suggests something of a warp presence manifesting in the real world.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

It be great if Ferrus was alive but he is dead. From all the other novels it's been stated that he is dead but I think I know why some people would think he is alive. In the book "fulgrim" , it wasn't really stated if that was actually Ferrus head or not. It was a head but unrecognizable I think.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> It be great if Ferrus was alive but he is dead. From all the other novels it's been stated that he is dead but I think I know why some people would think he is alive. In the book "fulgrim" , it wasn't really stated if that was actually Ferrus head or not. It was a head but unrecognizable I think.


No, it was his head. Horus himself reflected on that, saying to himself that he just wanted his brother dead, not mutilated. His head was partially caved in on one side, and his eyes were plucked out. It was Ferrus's head though.


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