# 13 Black Crusades - Is Abaddon really THAT much of a threat?



## Duke_Leto (Dec 11, 2010)

I've often wondered that if Abaddon is THAT much of the threat to the Imperium then why has he launched 13 Black Crusades that appear to not have had any lasting and devastating effect on the Imperium.

We know that time passes at a different pace within the Warp/Immaterium/Eye Of Terror (ie it might be that 10 millennia has passed since the HH in realspace but only maybe a century for the Traitor Legions).

I know this isn't the way it works but I always liked the idea that...

Time within the Warp/Immaterium/Eye Of Terror does not correspond to the linear timespan in realspace. This would mean that while there may have been 13 Black Crusades that to the Imperium came one after the other, they were not actually launched in the same order by Abaddon - meaning to the Imperium they appear somewhat random and unconnected but if reordered as per the design of Abaddon they make more strategic and tactical sense.

If indeed what I wrote just made sense!!!!


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

I can't remember which novel its in and im sure someone on here will find it and quote it but it is said that the first 12 crusaders were JUST crusades into the imperium that didnt have any real meaning or goal and that the 13th black crusade actually had a goal which was to break open the Cadia gate which in some part Abbadon did succeed. The Imperium knows that Abbadon is a threat but in the 41st millenium they also have orks, necrons and tyranids to deal with so they can't really focus on just him.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well, technically other than the Tyranids he's problem the greatest threat because of what's behind him:Chaos. The Crusades may be lead by the CM but they are sponsored by the Gods. They create the warp storms, easy travel, safe haven, and daemon hordes that make these things possible. If Abbaddon wins, unlike Horus, the galaxy will burn and at no point in his insanity will he think he was mistaken. Horus, according to xenos sources, would have eventually destroyed humanity after seeing the error of his ways.I don't think Abbaddon will reach the same conclusion. 

The Necrons represented an equally horrifying doom as wanting to shut off the warp from the materium to allow their gods to feast on mortal life forces. Fortunately for the Imperium, that's no longer an issue. Now it's just the Tyranids and Abbaddon.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On this note, I would argue that the Black Legion as it stands (as a loose coalition made up of countless warbands) is probably actually larger than several pre-Heresy Legions. We know that the Black Legion currently outnumbers the entire Word Bearers Legion by about 10:1 (based on _Dark Creed_). So even assuming the Word Bearers Legion now only numbers 10,000 (which is I suppose is a realistic, yet conservative estimate given thats only a fraction of their pre-Heresy strength - it could much easily be quite a lot more numerous though), that makes the Black Legion strength at roughly 100,000 (although it could be many more). Which of course is about the same size as the pre-Heresy Legions (bar a few).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Isnt it stated in the new csm codex that the crusades were just a gathering of resources to fight the war that would come after breaking cadia? so theyre not failures just a process


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## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

I feel like Abbadon is only growing in strength while the imperium is loosing it slowly. The imperium is having to fight more and more aliens to defend its border, while Abbadon has got his eye solely focused on terra. Every time he launches a crusade he is damaging the dwindling resources of the imperium. That is my thought with the blackstone fortress. That is a weapon the imperium can never replace and as such the defence is far weaker. 

In conclusion I believe that Abbadon is not a failure and perhaps is the gravest threat to humanity.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

We have to look at this from another perspective. 

Chaos as a whole is hidden from the imperium. The inquisition is perfectly willing to slaughter billions to hide it and stop the taint. ex the months of shame. 

Abaddon can launch as many crusades as he wants. They could all fail but for every crusade he launches more find out about chaos. 

Chaos cares not for time. Eventually the galaxy will burn.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

That about sums up my opinion on the matter.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to this situation. 

That guy should really write a book about 40k fluff. And just how we can interpret and how we should read it. 

In the world governed by CotE no one comes out particularly badly, all is just and fair. 

Basically, CotE should just be the new head of fluff management at GW.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not every crusade had the objective of breaking the Imperium. 

Not every crusade was even led by Abaddon.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Not every crusade was even led by Abaddon.


No, but Abaddon has led thirteen black crusades in those ten thousand years, last I recall that is why they are numbered at all (the thirteenth would actually be Abaddon's thirteenth black crusade.)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> No, but Abaddon has led thirteen black crusades in those ten thousand years, last I recall that is why they are numbered at all (the thirteenth would actually be Abaddon's thirteenth black crusade.)


I see. Understood.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

The situation for the empirium is not grimm dark, it is pitch black, the 13th black crusade being one of many threats, 
I am not sure why the 13th black crusade is such a succes for Chaos ? they gained a foothold on Cadia but their fleet has been devestated ?
But the thing I really like is the discussion between Talos and Abbadon in soul hunter, it basically comes down to the fact that both the empirium and the chaos SM are screwed big time, all humanity is not the just the emp lovers,


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

A simple questione for my first post on this board:

Foothold on cadia...can't the Imperial Navy just bomb/lance them into oblivion?

Or cant cant imperials just land some siege engine of doom and macroshell them back into the warp?

Btw, Im Romanov. Been lurking for a while, I really like this board.
Never played tabletop, but I red lots of BL publications.
Imperial guard fan and imperial supporter all the way


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Romanov77 said:


> A simple questione for my first post on this board:
> 
> Foothold on cadia...can't the Imperial Navy just bomb/lance them into oblivion?


This is actually what the end fluff of the 13th Black Crusade World Wide campaign said. By the end of it the Imperial Navy had regained space superiority and was in the process of supporting beleaguered imperial strongpoints and mopping up earth bound chaos forces. 

Cadia itself is a different story however as there is still orbital fighting going on there. I would also assume that Chaos forces had taken at least some of the ground to orbital defences which would no doubt blanket Cadia.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

piemelk said:


> they gained a foothold on Cadia but their fleet has been devestated ?


No, if memory serves most of the chaos fleets are largely intact. However when Abaddon lost the black fortresses (Talismans of Vaul) he did pull his forces back into the eye. 

He had managed to gain a foothold on Cadia, one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium; an act that no other chaos warlord (other than himself) has actually accomplished.

Even without Cadia under the control of chaos, countless other worlds were lost, meaning the grasp held by Imperial forces on the Cadian gate is weakened. This in turn will allow chaos ships greater opportunity to escape the eye and cause havoc.



Romanov77 said:


> Foothold on cadia...can't the Imperial Navy just bomb/lance them into oblivion?
> 
> Or cant cant imperials just land some siege engine of doom and macroshell them back into the warp?


No, because much of the fighting would have been taken to the various Kasr's. These are the city-states, major population centers, of Cadia and a fair majority of that is within urban sprawl or underground. The Kasr's are also fortresses, designed to withstand siege from the likes of orbital or ground forces, meaning that bombardment is useless and a direct siege will be resource consuming.

The thing about Cadia is that its greatest strength, that it is a fortress world, is also its greatest weakness. It is designed to be near impossible for someone to succeed in attacking, but if someone does than Imperial relief then has to go up against those same defenses, and any damage they inflict means that they have less to work with when they retake locations.


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

darkreever said:


> No, if memory serves most of the chaos fleets are largely intact. However when Abaddon lost the black fortresses (Talismans of Vaul) he did pull his forces back into the eye.
> 
> He had managed to gain a foothold on Cadia, one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium; an act that no other chaos warlord (other than himself) has actually accomplished.
> 
> ...


Are there really fortifications capable of surviving the Navy bigger shots or the massive planet shattering nuclear charges the Imperium undoubtly possess?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Romanov77 said:


> Are there really fortifications capable of surviving the Navy bigger shots or the massive planet shattering nuclear charges the Imperium undoubtly possess?


Yes, as a start I would point you to the planets of Krieg and Tallarn; the first which underwent atomic bombing (to the point where there is no way to sustain life out in the open) and the second which was virus bombed by the Iron Warriors and the only people who survived were within shelters.

Beyond that, there are a great many places that are void shielded in order to offer protection against the likes of orbital bombardment or siege. Void shields are mostly seen only on space faring vessels, titans, and the most important or heavily defended of cities (in fact the void shield of a city might be the equivalent of the void shield of a battleship or space station.)


This is actually why gaining some sort of foothold on Cadia is such a big blow. Because even with Abaddon and his forces falling back to the eye, it will take the Imperium years, to retake any fortified positions they previously lost. And that means tieing hell knows how many resources into such an effort. That foothold has effectively weakened the surrounding systems, not just the one world.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I consider the Black Crusades a success. Their goal was to spread Chaos and discorde. They did this quite well. Even as Chaos forces retreated, they left destruction, distrust, desolation and even Daemons behind. They were driven back at a huge cost to the Imperium. Entire worlds, though reclaimed, were then destroyed by the Inquisition for fear of Chaos taint. Each Crusade further strains the Imperium, drawing resources away from other battle zones. Abaddon is like a serpent. Each bite injects more venom, which slowly weakens and can eventually kill. Think of it like Guerilla tactics on a huge scale.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

We can't really say the thirteen Black Crusades had no lasting devastating effect on the Imperium. I quite certain that the Imperium would be in a much healthier state had these crusades not happened


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

redmapa said:


> Isnt it stated in the new csm codex that the crusades were just a gathering of resources to fight the war that would come after breaking cadia? so theyre not failures just a process


That is correct. The new codex puts much more emphasis on the Thirteenth Black Crusade by suggesting the previous twelve were waged as mere precursors in preparation.



piemelke said:


> But the thing I really like is the discussion between Talos and Abbadon in soul hunter, it basically comes down to the fact that both the empirium and the chaos SM are screwed big time, all humanity is not the just the emp lovers,


Take into account that conversation occurred _before_ the Thirteenth Crusade.



Romanov77 said:


> Foothold on cadia...can't the Imperial Navy just bomb/lance them into oblivion?
> 
> Or cant cant imperials just land some siege engine of doom and macroshell them back into the warp?


This quote from the final newsletter of the Eye of Terror Campaign answers your question: 


> The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate - perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.


The Eye of Terror has surged forward, engulfing huge swathes of the Cadian Gate within the tides of the immaterium. The Imperial Navy cannot reach Cadia in sufficient numbers to challenge the forces of Chaos, even with the intended redeployment of "almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar." 



piemelke said:


> I am not sure why the 13th black crusade is such a success for Chaos ?


The Eye of Terror campaign was a victory for the forces of Chaos; Cadia is largely in their control, as is orbit around the fortress world. Abaddon has breached the Cadian Gate and total war engulfs Segmentum Obscurus. The Imperial Navy may still be in control of the space lanes, but there seems no chance of resealing the gates at Cadia.

But the real success lies in the campaign's future potential: Abaddon's intention is to "tear open the gates of hell" and unleash the Daemonic Legions upon the Imperium. Realising that a direct assault on Terra is all but impossible with his mortal Legions, he intends to forge the "Crimson Path" in order to sustain the Daemonic hordes indefinitely and expand the boundaries of the Eye of Terror to engulf every world he conquers. Terra is still the ultimate objective of the Thirteenth Black Crusade.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But the real success lies in the campaign's future potential: Abaddon's intention is to "tear open the gates of hell" and unleash the Daemonic Legions upon the Imperium. Realising that a direct assault on Terra is all but impossible with his mortal Legions, he intends to forge the "Crimson Path" in order to sustain the Daemonic hordes indefinitely and expand the boundaries of the Eye of Terror to engulf every world he conquers. Terra is still the ultimate objective of the Thirteenth Black Crusade.


Do you think alien intervention will ever occur now that Cadia has been breached? 

Perhaps the Imperium wouldn't consider asking but perhaps the Eldar would take it upon themselves to sway the tides in the Imperium's favor?

Or maybe even the Necrons seeing as how the pylons are their creation.


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

Wasnt Cadia still "unbroken"?

You know, that awesome Guard novel...


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Do you think alien intervention will ever occur now that Cadia has been breached?
> 
> Perhaps the Imperium wouldn't consider asking but perhaps the Eldar would take it upon themselves to sway the tides in the Imperium's favor?
> 
> Or maybe even the Necrons seeing as how the pylons are their creation.


As far as i am aware, Abaddon, indeed the gods themselves were aware of the threat posed by the Eldar (albeit, limited in nature, they have been on the brink of extinction for 10,000 years) Abaddon if i remember correctly ordered the Night lords to nullify their threat.

regrading the Necrons, they are split, they are only just awakening and they basically arent in any position to hold back the tide, they might also not know or even care.

Abaddon's threat poses a problem primarily because it comes at the most inopportune time, the pylons are breaking/broken, the marines are few and far between, the mechanicum has regressed to a bunch of blithering idiots, Ultramar is threatened by an alien horde etc......

EDIT: anyone know what happened to the book that was stolen from the cave in "Mechanicum"?its meant to show up in 40k.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I disagree with you on the Necrons not posing a threat due to them slowly waking up.

By now many billions of Necrons have already woken up, joined up with other dynasties and have achieved many victories against pretty much all the races (the same with the Eldar).

I mentioned them specifically because they clearly knew about Cadia's importance hence why they dotted its surrounding area with many warp-stunting pylons. 

With them being destroyed, I'm quite certain they would (or should) be rushing to fix them.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Do you think alien intervention will ever occur now that Cadia has been breached?
> 
> Perhaps the Imperium wouldn't consider asking but perhaps the Eldar would take it upon themselves to sway the tides in the Imperium's favor?
> 
> Or maybe even the Necrons seeing as how the pylons are their creation.


Both the Necrons and Eldar showed up during the same space battle. One of Abaddon's Blackstones (and its attendant fleet) was in orbit around Cadia, firing at the Imperials, vapourising whole cities. 

An Imperial fleet hastily assembled was joined by the Eldar of craftworld Ulthue, led by Eldrad- who hoped to recapture the blackstone and free it of chaos corruption. Of course he failed and a Slaanash daemon ate his soul. 

During the engagement necron ships showed up, attacking the blackstone directly, hoping to destroy this valuable eldar weapon. They failed to destroy it but did cause it to disengage.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

My bad I meant in general not one particular battle/crusade.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> My bad I meant in general not one particular battle/crusade.


The eldar, or at least Ulthue were involved the whole way through the war. Whilst there was no formal alliance as such the eldar strike forces did attack chaos held planets and armies throughout the war. You could call it a mutually beneficial armstice.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chaos has always been the greatest threat to the Imperium. 

Is Abbadon really that much of a threat? Now more than ever I would say yes. But contrary to what he has done with his 13th Black Crusade, it is more of what legacy this leaves to Chaos. I said it before, if Abbadon fails this Black Crusade then it would be a huge set back to Chaos.

Now, the thousands of warriors of other legions and warbands that wanted nothing to do with Abbadon will directly or indirectly lend their support to his cause. The biggest problem with Abbadon's current force is the fact that he is perceived as a lunatic and a failure by many warbands. This and the fact that warbands are very limited to what they can be. I believe its fair to say that after every deployment, a warband's strength is rarely ever the same it was before. The armor, weaponry, and man power has always needed to be scavenged by all the Chaos Warbands.

Abbadon needed not only to show some kind of success with this crusade but also to make sure his losses during this crusade could be made up his success. I would say that this definitely did it.

However, I will say that I don't think Abbadon can remain in Cadia too long. He doesn't have control and is essentially surrounded. I'm not sure what to make about none of Abaddon's crusades being failures. I guess you can view anything chaos does by a means to an end. However, I don't think it has ever been the interest of the Chaos Gods for Abbadon to be completely successful. It is my opinion that they enjoy his tormented soul just the way it is. The fact that he is trying with all his might to be successful is something that probably amuses the Chaos Gods. 

I think that Abbadon's victory was only to make sure Abaddon's status quo in the current realm remained. Had Abbadon failed this crusade we could project many things, but I really don't think Abaddon would be able to maintain himself as Warmaster of the traitors. Honsou and other warbands seem to be representations of warbands going off on their own to seek true success.


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## Voicesinmyhead (Mar 6, 2013)

Rems said:


> An Imperial fleet hastily assembled was joined by the Eldar of craftworld Ulthue, led by Eldrad- who hoped to recapture the blackstone and free it of chaos corruption. Of course he failed and a Slaanash daemon ate his soul.


Maybe Eldrad just stuck in the warp Draigo style.... I am not a fan of Eldar trickery but i gotta admit, Eldrad is awesome.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The biggest problem with Abbadon's current force is the fact that he is perceived as a lunatic and a failure by many warbands.


That is the nature of Chaos. No one likes Abaddon, most of his own Legion probably despise him. The vast majority, if not all, of Chaos Lords probably think they could do better or that they deserve the title of Warmaster. I imagine that has always been the case and is not a new phenomenon with the onset of the 13th Crusade.



ckcrawford said:


> Abbadon needed not only to show some kind of success with this crusade but also to make sure his losses during this crusade could be made up his success.


Abaddon's strategy revolves around the establishment of the "Crimson Path" with it explicitly stated he doesn't care how many of his warriors or devotees are killed achieving that.



ckcrawford said:


> Had Abbadon failed this crusade we could project many things, but I really don't think Abaddon would be able to maintain himself as Warmaster of the traitors. Honsou and other warbands seem to be representations of warbands going off on their own to seek true success.


Why? If, as you say, many other warbands perceive him as having failed on numerous occasions before and undoubtedly despise him, why have they followed him for so long and continue to follow him? Why would they have suddenly renounced their support if the 13th Crusade had been turned back?


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

I think hes done a pretty good job of what a numerically inferior force needs to do when confronting an established enemy. Hit and run, fade back when resistance gets heavy so you dont take losses you cant absorb. Nathaniel Green used pretty much the same playbook in the Carolinas.


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