# How Tall is a Primarch



## Ardias26

On the cover of the new thousand sons book magnus is shown as absolutely huge in comparison to the space marines, are all the primarchs like that, with normal humans being like knee high to them. Has it ever said how big they all were.


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## hailene

Well, generally humans are about 75% as tall as Space marines (assuming the average human is 5'10 and Space Marine is then 7'7), and supposedly space marines are in the same proportion to a Primarch, that'd make them about 10'4. Apparently the Primarchs themselves vary, as Alpharius was close to his extremely tall (for a regular Space Marine) First Captain. So I'd wager somewhere between 9'3 for the small ones, and up to 12 feet for the tallest ones.


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## darkreever

The cover of the novel your speaking of would be having Magnus project himself as an image, the image allowing him to appear larger than he actually is. Kinda a useful ability to lead or address a very large number of your forces in the defense of your homeworld. (Probably not a bad thing in putting fear into most non astartes foes either.)


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## Baron Spikey

As hailene pointed out it would vary from Primarch to Primarch, again as he pointed out Alpharius is known to be of similar stature to a large Astartes- so anywhere from 9ft (or just under) for the smallest to about 10-10.5ft for Magnus the tallest.


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## Chaosrider

And it depends, pre-heresy i suppose your talking about, thats covered. but if its post heresy talking of the daemon primarchs then they get way taller, angron is 20 foot. not sure about magnus post heresy, but most likely similar?


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## dark angel

As already said, it is not actually Magnus but rather a manifestation of him. If he was that big, do you seriously think that Russ, as seen on the cover of Prospero Burns, could lift him above his head and break his back?


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## Chaosrider

he could be an ant!!! in the terms of lifting 8 times own body weight, he would really be a tank then 
and is that after he is a daemon prince?


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## randian

Chaosrider said:


> but if its post heresy talking of the daemon primarchs then they get way taller, angron is 20 foot.


Angron is as tall as he wants to be in the Materium, one of the benefits of not having a corporeal body. In the Warp, of course, height is meaningless.

As for Magnus, he is noted as being unusually tall. I'd say the average Primarch was ~10 feet tall, so I'd peg Magnus at 11-12.


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## Chaosrider

oh, i wanna be one of them, daemon titan 

.... that is silly, but would be sweeet


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## LordLucan

Going by the artwork, Horus is only a head taller than Abaddon, and Leman Russ is virtually equal in height to some of the Space Wolves under him.

Magnus the Red is specifically referred to as a giant, even by his fellow primarchs. That is why he is so very humungous.


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## hailene

Keep in mind that Abby is huge. People commented that he couldn't fit into a suit of termy armor.


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## randian

LordLucan said:


> Magnus the Red is specifically referred to as a giant, even by his fellow primarchs. That is why he is so very humungous.


That cover shows him to be at least 20 feet tall. I don't think he was supposed to be that tall naturally. Sorcery, as noted, probably accounts for it.


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## forkmaster

Who would be the shortest Primarch then?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

forkmaster said:


> Who would be the shortest Primarch then?


Havn't read _Legion_ in a while, but isn't Alpharius Omegon noted to be relatively small for a Primarch?


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## Masked Jackal

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Havn't read _Legion_ in a while, but isn't Alpharius Omegon noted to be relatively small for a Primarch?


Yes, several other people have commented on that, he's apparently largish space marine sized.


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## Baron Spikey

Ferrus Manus was a head taller than Vulkan and Corax*, so whilst he wasn't quite as large as Magnus he was definitely one of the tallest Primarchs- and it isn't just that Corax and Vulkan are small Primarchs as Corax is described as being tall as well.


(*Fulgrim Pg.454)


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## LordLucan

randian said:


> That cover shows him to be at least 20 feet tall. I don't think he was supposed to be that tall naturally. Sorcery, as noted, probably accounts for it.


The Primarchs aren't natural though. Magnus is a mutant. Always has been. If you look in Visions of Heresy, he is consistantly portrayed as twice the height of a terminator at least.

hailene: Horus, Abaddon and most of the terminators at his side in the visions of heresy book are a similar height, as is Maloghurst the Twisted, and Erebus. Incidentally, that corrupt Fabricator General Dwarfs Horus. The image showing Fulgrim doesn't make him look especially tall.

Remember guys, the power of the primarchs comes not from their muscles alone...

I prefer the Primarchs too be rather average size, but their 'presenses' are vast, if you get my meaning. They can fill a room with their charisma and gravitas, giving the impression they are titanic. While only Magnus is literally vast.


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## LordLucan

Masked Jackal said:


> Yes, several other people have commented on that, he's apparently largish space marine sized.


As are most of the Primarchs, going on the artwork I've seen in Visions of heresy...


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## Chaosrider

that would suck for russ. shorty, and he should be massive


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## randian

LordLucan said:


> The Primarchs aren't natural though. Magnus is a mutant. Always has been. If you look in Visions of Heresy, he is consistantly portrayed as twice the height of a terminator at least.


By "natural" I meant "not enhanced by psychic powers or sorcery; normal biological size".


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## Chaosrider

by what you guys are saying, if they showed up on earth, people would piss them selves


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## gen.ahab

At maximum I would put a primarch at around maybe 4.5-4.6 meters and at the lower end of the spectrum I would say 3-3.1 meters.


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## hailene

Sweet Jesus, you think some of the Primarchs were a little over 15 feet tall!?!

Please give me some basis for this.


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## Chaosrider

that is pretty damn tall....


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## Baron Spikey

I think LordLucan has it right, it was the presence and charisma of the Primarchs that made them seem so incredibly huge (not that they weren't large anyway). 

If anyone has read any of the Druss books by David Gemmel you'll know what I'm getting at, Druss isn't especially tall- there are severall other characters much taller than him- but he has such force of character and an indominatable personality that everyone who met him considered him a giant.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> I think LordLucan has it right, it was the presence and charisma of the Primarchs that made them seem so incredibly huge (not that they weren't large anyway).
> 
> If anyone has read any of the Druss books by David Gemmel you'll know what I'm getting at, Druss isn't especially tall- there are severall other characters much taller than him- but he has such force of character and an indominatable personality that everyone who met him considered him a giant.


Totally Agree. Hence why a recurring theme from the Heresy Novels is both Astartes and Humans being extremley nervous, honoured, overcome and simply worried about meeting Primarchs. Its not because they are slightly taller than Astartes, its because their presence literally consumes all those in the immediate vicinity. They radiate some form of aura which quite simply (for lack of a better word) dominates those around them.


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## gen.ahab

Lol no man the only primarch that I would put at that hight is magnus the red and that's the absolute tallest I would say he could have been. 3.5-3.6 feels good for the norm though. Lol


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## Baron Spikey

Personally I'd go with 9-10ft being a broad average (thats 2.7-3m), with some Primarchs being as short as 8.5ft (2.5m) or in the case of Ferrus Manus and Magnus being a max of 10.5ft (3.2m) and 11ft (3.4m) respectively.


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## kaled

Well, according to the guys at the GW studio, an average marine is about 7' to 7' 6"tall (it's at about 27 minutes into this podcast). We know Alpharius is not so tall that he can't be mistaken for a marine, so I'd say he'd be about 7' 6" - the top end of the scale for a marine. Horus is described in _Horus Rising_ as being to a marine, as a marine is to a man - so if we assume an average human is around 6' and a marine is about 7', then about 8' sounds pretty reasonable for Horus. Therefore I'd say the Primarchs generally being between 7' 6" and 8' 6" with Magnus possibly being a bit taller.

Of course, if you want your marines to be taller then you'd have to increase all those heights, but personally I'm happy to go with Jes Goodwin's height for them as he's been designing marines for a long time...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

kaled said:


> Well, according to the guys at the GW studio, an average marine is about 7' to 7' 6"tall (it's at about 27 minutes into this podcast). We know Alpharius is not so tall that he can't be mistaken for a marine, so I'd say he'd be about 7' 6" - the top end of the scale for a marine. Horus is described in _Horus Rising_ as being to a marine, as a marine is to a man - so if we assume an average human is around 6' and a marine is about 7', then about 8' sounds pretty reasonable for Horus. Therefore I'd say the Primarchs generally being between 7' 6" and 8' 6" with Magnus possibly being a bit taller.
> 
> Of course, if you want your marines to be taller then you'd have to increase all those heights, but personally I'm happy to go with Jes Goodwin's height for them as he's been designing marines for a long time...


Sounds Reasonable to me


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## gen.ahab

Personaly, I would think they would be larger. 7.5 feet isn't that tall. Reasonable for a space marine is 8-9 feet. Magnus is suppose to be a giant even for a primarch so 13-15 I believe would fit. 9-12 feet maybe for the rest.


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## kaled

What makes you think marines are so tall when the GW designers say that they're 'just' 7' to 7'6"?


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## Helvron

kaled said:


> What makes you think marines are so tall when the GW designers say that they're 'just' 7' to 7'6"?


Who are these GW designers? the modelers, or the writters?


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## kaled

Jes basically designed Space Marines - they're his baby, as it were. Jervis has written loads of the games. These aren't just some designers for hire - these are some of the head honchos at the GW studios and know what they're talking about.


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## Masked Jackal

kaled said:


> Jes basically designed Space Marines - they're his baby, as it were. Jervis has written loads of the games. These aren't just some designers for hire - these are some of the head honchos at the GW studios and know what they're talking about.


Debatable, but they are a good source for what's canon or not.


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## gen.ahab

Well I suppose it has everything to do with who you choose to get your info from. The height changes depending on the authers.


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## Baron Spikey

[Edit- Graham McNeill seemingly supports Jes' idea, as he has one or two human characters in his novels who are as tall as Space Marines, at 7ft that would be in the realms of plausibility, not so at 8ft+. And he was a games developer before he was an author ]


So if we were to make a list of Primarchs in height (hey we tried it for the discovery order of the Primarchs ) it might go something like this:

In order of shortest to tallest-

Alpharius/Roboute Guilliman* 
Horus/Dorn/Angron
Ferrus Manus
Magnus the Red

*in the Alpha Legion IA article it states that Guilliman and Alpharius are of similar stature


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## Iistaan Venturian

As far as I'm aware, the Primarchs that were on the short end of the spectrum were, like, twelve foot tall bodybuilders. Magnus the Red was supposed to be in the twenty to thirty foot range or something, being the "giant among Primarchs."

Even so, anyone's guess could very well be correct; we won't know anything for sure unless Games Workshop releases concrete data about such a thing. Considering that it's a relatively petty subject, I can't see that happening.


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## XxDreMisterxX

Angron is a beast!! he's like 18ft++ tall!!

or am i exaggerating a little? lol

his daemon prince form is 22ft++!


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## gen.ahab

I wouldn't exclude the existance of an 8ft tall human in the 40k universe given the frequency of extencive genetic aswell as bionic modification.


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## Baron Spikey

Angron is the same height as Horus (according to Galaxy in Flames), he's much broader though- when he's 22ft+ tall it's because he's a Daemon Prince and his form is no longer bound by the pettiness of plausibility.

A 20-30ft tall Magnus would be absolutely ridiculous, he'd be 2-3 times bigger than a Dreadnought!

@gen.ahab- looks like it's another of those time where we'll have to agree to disagree, I don't believe any Primarch was much over 10ft (and then only Magnus or Manus being close to that).


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## gen.ahab

Acceptable. :biggrin: there is no set height so this is only a matter of opinion.


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## XxDreMisterxX

Haha, Touche Baron Spikey! :biggrin:


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## kaled

It is only a matter of opinion, but at least I've presented evidence supporting them being around 7'6" to 8'6". Does anyone have any evidence for the larger heights they're suggesting or are they pure speculation?


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## hailene

Men standing next to Space Marines are repeatedly mentioned to stand about chest high. That makes them about 75% as tall as a Space Marine. 

Just grabbing some numbers out of the air, the average American man is 5'10. Using the 75% number, Space Marines would be about 7'7. There are also several times when Space Marines are in similar proportion to Primarchs as men are to Space Marines. Putting Space Marines at 7'7, that'd make Primarchs 10'4. Some are taller, some are shorter, but 10 1/2 feet ought to be pretty solid.


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## gen.ahab

It's been awhile since read it but in Dan Abnett's legion he puts space marines at 9 feet. In one of the ghosts books a chaos marine is said to be 10 feet tall or so I am told. Of course if it makes you feel any better these aren’t as definite as yours. :biggrin:


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## hailene

gen.ahab said:


> It's been awhile since read it but in Dan Abnett's legion he puts space marines at 9 feet. In one of the ghosts books a chaos marine is said to be 10 feet tall or so I am told. Of course if it makes you feel any better these aren’t as definite as yours. :biggrin:


I don't remember either of those occurrences happening. Could you cite some page numbers? I don't believe he has ever defined Space Marine height as a definite measurement.


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## gen.ahab

I would have to reread the legion novel and for the second I got that info from my friend so I would have to ask him. Do a search for it may be included in a book review of some sort. It’s possible I miss remembered though so it’s not a definite as I stated. I would agree with the 8.5 feet that kaled mentioned but I don't exactly know where that came from since he previously stated that his source put it between 7 and 7.5 feet.


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## Baron Spikey

I believe kaled is saying that the Primarchs are between 7'6" and 8'6", not Space Marines. 

It's really reached that point now where some people are in the 10"+ camp for Primarchs OR the 8-10" camp. We're obviously not convincing each other so maybe we should let anyone who wanders upon this thread to draw their own conclusions


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## gen.ahab

Agreed, it’s similar to a political dispute..... no one ever truly wins.


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## kaled

One thing I find curious is that a lot of people claim that BL novels are not canonical (not me I might add), but then prefer to take them as a basis for the height of a marine over what the studio say; whereas the rest of the time BL is dismissed as not being true. Incidentally, if you listen to that podcast you can hear Jes & Jervis talking about the novels getting marines height wrong...


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## Iistaan Venturian

I think that it would be a safe bet to put Primarchs within the 12-15 foot range, with larger ones like Angron and Magnus being in the 20-25 foot range. It would make sense, I mean, why wouldn't you make them incredibly tall? It adds to the point that the Primarchs are the rulers and fathers of their Space Marines. For some reason, I just can't see them being relatively the same height; it just doesn't have the same imposing effect.

Then again, perhaps I misjudge their hubris. The Emperor himself was said to not be all that ostentatious a man, trying to show that he was the _leader_ of humanity, not its _god_. This would place everyone, Emps himself included, in the 7-9 foot range with Magnus coming out at 15 or so. 

I do remember seeing a picture of Sangunius where he was shown to be about half the size of his wings, which were like 30 feet long each, making him around 15 or so feet.

Damn, contradictions aplenty. It's like trying to find an accurate map of the planet Earth, with every country that produces a map making their country slightly larger, disallowing any sort of accurate depiction. I would assume that individual chapters and legions would do the same about their Primarchs, and each artist is subject to their own opinions about the person that they're drawing.

Frak, this sucks, doesn't it.


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## Baron Spikey

Angron wasn't actually that tall- no taller than the majority of Primarchs, in Galaxy in Flames it's stated he's the same height as Horus just a lot broader. So he'd be incredibly imposing because of his physicality and general brooding, violent charisma.

There's more than one way to interpret the imposing stature of the Primarchs. Yes they were larger than their Astartes but I don't think it was by much, no more than 1-2ft (with the exception of Magnus and to a lesser extent Ferrus Manus who both probably touched the gigantic 10ft barrier). It was, as has been stated originally by LordLucan and then myself and Child, their incredibly forceful personalities that projected the idea that they were much larger than they were.

The whole 'giant' thing- I think someone who is 7ft now is gigantic, so a giant amongst the Primarchs (men used to being the largest and most physically impressive presence in any situation) might only need to be a mere foot taller than his brothers. To put it in perspective a Dreadnought is 4m(13ft) in height, and I'm sure than none of the Primarchs were as broad or tall as one of those mighty machines.


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## Iistaan Venturian

Given, yes, there is room for misinterpretation, especially with how wonderful and charismatic the Primarchs were, but I think that you may underestimate them, noble Baron.

They were the sons of the Emperor, were they not? If so, then why couldn't they be 12-15 feet tall? The children, more accurately clones of the God-Emperor should only be so grand. I think that they could _easily_ have been just as tall, if not taller than a dreadnought.

I myself am of relatively short stature and even I don't consider people who are seven feet tall to be "giants." On the issue of Magnus, I think that being a giant among the children of a god deserves a bit more than ten or so feet, just a few meager feet taller than the Astartes, who are supposed to be represented as their children.


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## hailene

Baron, do you have some solid references to believe that Primarchs are only a foot or two taller than a Space Marine? Throughout the Horus Heresy series the marines are said to only reach up to the Primarch's chest. And occasionally the comparison between man and Space Marine is similar to Space Marine to Primarch. Is there a factual basis in your belief?


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## Baron Spikey

Well the difference between your chest and top of your head is about 12-18 inches (it's never said where on the chest a man comes up to, and yes I measured). So using that somewhat shaky explanation you can extrapolate the height of Primarch to be rough 3ft or so over a man.

The books that describe a Space Marine's or Primarch's size also contradict each other a lot, as kaled said Jes and Jervis talked about how the BL novels occasionally got their facts wrong....they 'might' be canonical in the most part but that doesn't mean the books aren't wrong when it comes to the details.


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## hailene

I'm extrapolating by comparing a man to a Space Marine then a space marine to a Primarch. 

Let's go with your average for chest to head. 15 inches. If a man stands 5'10, or 70 inches, that means the difference from his chest to his head is 21.4% (15/70). That means the difference from a Space Marine's chest to his head is roughly 18.21 inches (1.214*15 inches). Adding that to 70 inches puts it at 88.21 inches. or about 7'4 for a Space Marine.

Again, if the difference from a Primarch's chest to his head follows the same ratio, that'd make the difference 22.1 inches. Or adding it to the 88.21 inches of the Space Marine, makes it 110.03 inches. Or about 9'2.

I'm a pretty short guy, but the difference between my pecs and top of my head is closer to 17 inches. Someone actually 5'10 would probably sit around 18 or so.

Using 18 inches as the difference instead of 15 would give us 92.6 inch tall (7'8 marines) and 121.4 inch or 10'2 Primarchs.

From what I've read, Primarch sizes have been pretty consistent. Space Marines go to the chest, men to the stomach. Could you list some examples where they say otherwise?


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## Baron Spikey

Just a second...your extrapolation of my 'evidence' supports the view point of the 8-10ft camp, a camp I hasten to add which includes Jes Goodwin and Jervis Johnson. 
Edit- which in fact I now realise you pretty much stated way back at the start of the thread, d'oh
[to clarify my measurements I measured from the top of my pectoral, below the collar bone]


Regarding Primarch size- other than the obvious example of Alpharius who was of a similar dimensions to that of a large Astartes nothing I can reference off the top of my head springs to mind. I'll do a slow read through of all the novels I own that contain references to a Primarch's height but I would like to use the Horus Heresy:Collected Visions artwork 'Hands of the Emperor' and 'Blades of the Traitor' as support as both pieces are extremely clear on relative height between the Emperor and his Custodians and Horus/Fulgrim and the assembled Astartes respectively.

In 'Hands of the Emperor' Constantin Valdor, Chief Custodian, is clearly level with the Emperor's collar bone- with a Sister of Silence coming up to the Custodians chest in height- and in 'Blades of the Traitor' Abaddon's head is level with the underside of Horus' chin with Ahriman (similar to Constantin) level with Fulgrim's collar bone. 

Now Abaddon is known to be an extremely large Astartes warrior accounting for the reason Horus is a head taller than him rather than head and shoulders, and I've referenced the Emperor/Custodian artwork because the Emperor is said to be of similar stature to the Primarchs and the Custodians similar to that of the Astartes.

What is remarkable about these pieces of art is that they are consistent in their scales when comparing Astartes/Custodians and Primarch/Emperor- now that could be dismissed because they're both created by the same artist (Sam Wood) but it's rare that a 40K artist is *so* consistent in his use of scale.


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## hailene

In the Tales of Hersey book, it does state that Custodians are taller than their Space Marine cousins. So I'd be wary of any direct comparisons between Primarchs and Custodians.


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## Baron Spikey

Actually in Tales of Heresy (I presume your referring to 'Blood Games') it states that Custodians are generally larger and more powerful but in the same paragraph on the next page (pages 29-30) it says 



> but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases


So if an Astartes warrior was, say, 7'4 then having a Custodian be 7'5 wouldn't skew the comparison that greatly 

Edit: plus the inclusion of the Sister of Silence next to both the Emperor and Custodian helps to put it into a more 'human' scale.


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## forkmaster

Funny enough from the artwork Ive seen of the Emperor Ive always pictured as shorter than the primarchs reaching up to their shouders for some reason. Please dont take this as serious, just how Ive pictured him in my head.


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## XxDreMisterxX

For arguments sake. space marines 8'4"-9'5"! primarchs 10-13'!! The tallest man in the world is about 8' so i would say space marines are just a little bit taller then him. going over 14' would be comparing a primarch to a small tree or building. lol


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## gen.ahab

10 feet dre. lol


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## hailene

Okay, let's get away from "ALL RIGHT, I THINK THEY'RE 450 FEET TALL AND ENGAGE TITANS IN CLOSE COMBAT!" sort of comments. At least try to support your numbers with more than "Well, I think..."


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## gen.ahab

Believe what you want to believe it is irrelevant. There is no real set number games workshop has come out with and officially set the bar at. If you want them to be 30 feet tall then believe it, it's your prerogative.


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## XxDreMisterxX

I like to believe in common sense and reasonable limits. lol


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## gen.ahab

As I told you in class common sence isn't common. Also The fact remains that there still is no official height given by games workshop for a space marine or the primarchs.


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## XxDreMisterxX

But speculating is soo much fun!!  and we gotta go off something if people arent willing to accept that they are below 8ft. and there is some GW reference to this in the books and through that podcast that was posted earlier.  and doesnt the Codex: Space Marines say anything about this??? it would be a very big neglect on their part if they didnt.


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## gen.ahab

That was just two dudes from GW. Until they come out with published doc that say it I won't accept anything and no the codex doesn't mention specific size.


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## XxDreMisterxX

If only they did that for alot of things in the fluff. lol
less digging around in the dark for barely legible and credible info.


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## Helvron

hailene said:


> Okay, let's get away from "ALL RIGHT, I THINK THEY'RE 450 FEET TALL AND ENGAGE TITANS IN CLOSE COMBAT!" sort of comments. At least try to support your numbers with more than "Well, I think..."


Is it ok if i believe in the "I THINK THEY'RE 450 FEET TALL AND ENGAGE TITANS IN CLOSE COMBAT!" thing?


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## Chimaera

Personally if for some reason GW did revive Primarchs and introduce them to the game I wouldn't want to see them that much taller than a SM. How the hell would you transport them. GW would need to redesign all existing transports to accomodate them, one drop pod per Primarch LOL Ooooo wait heres an excuse for GW to replace/re-sell their whole SM vehicle range. Seriously I don't think the Primarchs should be over 9ft otherwise things start to get very complicated in the detail.


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## gen.ahab

At 12 they would still fit in a drop pod and in landraiders. They already don't fit in rhinos so I can't see them being a problem at 12.


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## Chimaera

gen.ahab said:


> At 12 they would still fit in a drop pod and in landraiders. They already don't fit in rhinos so I can't see them being a problem at 12.


I look at a Terminator now against a Landraider and think it must be awkward exiting the vehicle. I can't imagine an even bigger Primarch exiting. Would just look silly in my opinion. Unless that is a Terminator is almost 12ft tall.


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## gen.ahab

Thats was suppose to be the largest of the Primarchs imo. A terminator armored sm is probably 9 feet. I would put most primarchs around 9 or 10. And ya it would be a bitch of a fit but I could see it.


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## Chimaera

gen.ahab said:


> Thats was suppose to be the largest of the Primarchs imo. A terminator armored sm is probably 9 feet. I would put most primarchs around 9 or 10. And ya it would be a bitch of a fit but I could see it.


If a Terminator is 9ft then a Primarch circa 10ft would be do able but any taller would mean a Primarch would be foot based or need their own transport in my opinion. Even a drop pod would need special fittings to accomodate one maybe knocking the space out for another passenger. I suppose you could get even crazier with the whole thing like could a Primarch use a standard bolt pistol if they were 12ft tall, would their fingers be too big LOL. Going even crazier would they need their own crapper on board ship? I think you can see where I am going


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## gen.ahab

12 feet would be magnus. And they would probably need special fitting I could see it but I also believe they would be more proportionate than a sm so they might be of comparable girth.


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## hailene

The model themselves could positioned in an aggressive crouch or something. And I'd doubt that they'd need special weapons. There's plenty of room on the trigger. You don't see special weapons today for 7+ foot or extremely obese people, do you?

Plus in the end of Horus Rising, Horus picks up a chain sword and bolter from a dead space marine and goes to town with'em.


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## gen.ahab

hailene said:


> The model themselves could positioned in an aggressive crouch or something. And I'd doubt that they'd need special weapons. There's plenty of room on the trigger. You don't see special weapons today for 7+ foot or extremely obese people, do you?
> 
> Plus in the end of Horus Rising, Horus picks up a chain sword and bolter from a dead space marine and goes to town with'em.


Ahhhhh.... good time my friend good times. :good:


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## Chimaera

hailene said:


> The model themselves could positioned in an aggressive crouch or something. And I'd doubt that they'd need special weapons. There's plenty of room on the trigger. You don't see special weapons today for 7+ foot or extremely obese people, do you?
> 
> Plus in the end of Horus Rising, Horus picks up a chain sword and bolter from a dead space marine and goes to town with'em.


Posing them in a crouch position would seem an odd way to portray a primarch but horses for courses I guess. Really the obese thing you mention would have no bearing in general (although I can't see an obese person sprinting around Helmand) but size/height most certainly would have a bearing on using standard weapons/equipment. If you look at the standard Tommy he is probably circa 5'11". Now the British army probably now this as most things seem designed for around this height. Now if you take a look at the worlds tallest man past and present you will very quickly notice their limbs and appendages are scaled up generally for their height. The worlds tallest man was 8'11" which means if he joined the British army he would not fit into any light transport, soak up more space in larger transport, have great difficulty using the standard issue weapon and would find it hard to operate most equipment. Now we are talking about an individual potentially 3ft taller. He pretty much couldn't be effective in any army, even the American one. All the kit would need to be redesigned to accomodate one individual. I just couldn't see that happening.

I think your last paragraph is most relevant as it would probably suggest Horus was not as gigantic as we may like to think and Primarchs in general were not too far off SM's


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## XxDreMisterxX

You guys are being extremely silly. Primarchs would have their own transports and honor guard and what not. they wouldnt need a regular LR or Drop pod. And comparing a primarch on the table top to fluff is even sillier because both are VAStly different.


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## gen.ahab

Chimaera said:


> Posing them in a crouch position would seem an odd way to portray a primarch but horses for courses I guess. Really the obese thing you mention would have no bearing in general (although I can't see an obese person sprinting around Helmand) but size/height most certainly would have a bearing on using standard weapons/equipment. If you look at the standard Tommy he is probably circa 5'11". Now the British army probably now this as most things seem designed for around this height. Now if you take a look at the worlds tallest man past and present you will very quickly notice their limbs and appendages are scaled up generally for their height. The worlds tallest man was 8'11" which means if he joined the British army he would not fit into any light transport, soak up more space in larger transport, have great difficulty using the standard issue weapon and would find it hard to operate most equipment. Now we are talking about an individual potentially 3ft taller. He pretty much couldn't be effective in any army, even the American one. All the kit would need to be redesigned to accomodate one individual. I just couldn't see that happening.
> 
> I think your last paragraph is most relevant as it would probably suggest Horus was not as gigantic as we may like to think and Primarchs in general were not too far off SM's


You are trying to compare modern military standards to an army of "Man Mountains." You must also remember space marines are incredibly disproportionate. For their girth they should be much taller and primarchs are described as proportionate. It is possible that their hands wouldn't be that much larger than a normal space marine and seeing as how a terminator carries the same weapons a normal sm carries it would seem that the weapons aren’t exactly small, when you are talking about beings that are upwards of 8 feet an extra 2 or 3 feet isn't exactly all that much.


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## Baron Spikey

XxDreMisterxX said:


> You guys are being extremely silly. Primarchs would have their own transports and honor guard and what not. they wouldnt need a regular LR or Drop pod. And comparing a primarch on the table top to fluff is even sillier because both are VAStly different.


Source please. As far as I'm aware other than actual master-crafted wargear the Primarchs used the same transports and what not as their Astartes troops.

I still think the average Primarch wasn't that much larger than the average Astartes warrior, maybe no more 12-18 inches taller (with Ferrus somewhere between 18-24 inches and Magnus 24-30 inches).
The idea that they *should* be taller because they were sons of the Emperor and the Astartes were their children makes no sense- adult children are often just as tall as their parents.


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## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> Source please. As far as I'm aware other than actual master-crafted wargear the Primarchs used the same transports and what not as their Astartes troops.
> 
> I still think the average Primarch wasn't that much larger than the average Astartes warrior, maybe no more 12-18 inches taller (with Ferrus somewhere between 18-24 inches and Magnus 24-30 inches).
> The idea that they *should* be taller because they were sons of the Emperor and the Astartes were their children makes no sense- adult children are often just as tall as their parents.


It’s actually completely different. A child is a blank slate, with the space marines you're simply adding modification to an existing frame so it’s not the same thing. Think of it this way....... were the thousand sons red?


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## Baron Spikey

I'm not arguing the different ways that Primarchs and Astartes come into their 'heritage', what I disagree with is this blind, unfounded argument that Primarchs were so much vaster than their warriors because...just because- doesn't seem to be any actual statement other than that really.
The idea that because they are the Emperor's children and share his genetic makeup would make them so incredibly tall is weird, why would they be 12ft+ tall? the Emperor has never been presented as that tall and most of the Primarchs were of a simlar stature to him.


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## hailene

Chimaera said:


> Posing them in a crouch position would seem an odd way to portray a primarch but horses for courses I guess. Really the obese thing you mention would have no bearing in general (although I can't see an obese person sprinting around Helmand) but size/height most certainly would have a bearing on using standard weapons/equipment. If you look at the standard Tommy he is probably circa 5'11". Now the British army probably now this as most things seem designed for around this height. Now if you take a look at the worlds tallest man past and present you will very quickly notice their limbs and appendages are scaled up generally for their height. The worlds tallest man was 8'11" which means if he joined the British army he would not fit into any light transport, soak up more space in larger transport, have great difficulty using the standard issue weapon and would find it hard to operate most equipment. Now we are talking about an individual potentially 3ft taller. He pretty much couldn't be effective in any army, even the American one. All the kit would need to be redesigned to accomodate one individual. I just couldn't see that happening.
> 
> I think your last paragraph is most relevant as it would probably suggest Horus was not as gigantic as we may like to think and Primarchs in general were not too far off SM's


I wasn't speaking so much about transports. Someone mentioned earlier that a Primarch may have trouble firing a bolt pistol because it'd be too small. 

I'm not saying the Primarch should be sitting in a squat, but if you're ever in a fight you don't be want to be standing up straight. It's too difficult to shift your weight and it telegraphs your movement. Bent knees are the way to go. I suppose a fighting crouch would be a better description. And this is purely for the table top. This would allow a Primarch model to fit into a Rhino, for example.

Even outside the tabletop, though, even in a Rhino or Land Raider, I imagine the Primarch could deign to bend his knees and curl his neck. Or heaven forbid, even sit.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> I'm not arguing the different ways that Primarchs and Astartes come into their 'heritage', what I disagree with is this blind, unfounded argument that Primarchs were so much vaster than their warriors because...just because- doesn't seem to be any actual statement other than that really.
> The idea that because they are the Emperor's children and share his genetic makeup would make them so incredibly tall is weird, why would they be 12ft+ tall? the Emperor has never been presented as that tall and most of the Primarchs were of a simlar stature to him.


Totally Agree Baron. People seem to be picking numbers out of the air simply because that is how they envision the Primarchs, and not basing their assumptions on precedents we have from various sources.


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## gen.ahab

I didn't say they would be 12 feet tall. I said Magnus, the giant, might be that tall. I believe most would probably be around 9 to 10 feet tall. a large terminator is probably 9 feet tall and Horus was suppose to be larger than Abaddon. Who, I might add, would be considered a rather large fellow. Therefore I believe 9-10, for the vast majority of them, would be reasonable and possibly 12 for the "giant."


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

On a side note, regarding Magnus' height:

(Spoilers for _A Thousand Sons_):



'Magnus's stature had always been one of variable proportions, but his rage had made him huge.' (_A Thousand Sons_ Page 229)




'Magnus filled the library with his presence, though he appeared to be no bigger than Ahriman' (_A Thousand Sons_ Page 290)




Throughout _A Thousand Sons_, Magnus is shown to be able to adjust his stature depending on requirement, situation or his feelings. Or at the very least a projection of his self.


Also Regarding the height of the Custodes:



'They were tall, as tall as the Astartes, though their armour was nowhere near as bulky...' (_A Thousand Sons_ page 260)


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## XxDreMisterxX

Haha, Sorry Baron i was just speculating. Also i would go off of Marnaeus Calgar's personal landraider also shown in the SM 5th edition codex. now if a chapter master could have that why not a Primarch? lol 

Also a interesting thing i just thought up: You all remember the primarch relics right? well they seem to be in use among the Chapter masters of their respective chapters, but they are in USE! so that means that whatever there primarchs body proportions were they were VERY similar to their own space marines. Example: Abbadon using Horuses Lightning claws, Vulkan Artifacts, Lion El Johnson's equipment being used by Azrael, etc.


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## gen.ahab

True dre, but as I said I believe the primarchs would be more proportionate than space marines so that could happen even if they were taller.


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## hailene

A caveat, though. In Battle for the Abyss, the World Eater Captain isn't able to heft Angron's former weapon. Per the book, "The weapon was far too heavy and unbalanced for Skrall to wield."


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## XxDreMisterxX

But isnt there a reference of Angron giving kharn one of his two Chain axes, Gore Child and Gore Father?

and though Angron may be a primarch, i believe his Strength is way more then anyone his size! his anger feeds it and helps him grow stronger.

like a ant being able to lift things 3 times his own weight and size.


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## hailene

Gorechild and Gorefather are designed to be used in one hand. Though since Kharn can use his...plasma pistol? and Gorechild together...Perhaps GC and GF were designed particularly light by Angron's standards? Or Brazentooth particularly heavy? Who knows.

Then again Kharn *is* thoroughly blessed by Korne. On the TT he does have an extra strength point on the average marine. 

And the ant is strong because it has physics on its side. You take an ant and make him Primarch sized and he wouldn't be able to support himself.


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## XxDreMisterxX

With Angron's above average strength, i wouldnt be surprised if his weapons weighed a whole lot more then they should, because with the added weight his weapons are significantly stronger if you can wield them effectively with the added weight. 
haha. srry for the verbatim.
But for Kharn to wield GC like it was nothing, it must be pretty light. and for Angron that must have felt like holding a tooth pick. lolz

and i do agree on the ant thing. center of gravity increases alot when your size goes up and seems to multiply the bigger you get.


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## gen.ahab

Center of gravity has nothing to do with it and delete you pm box dre.


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## XxDreMisterxX

or something like that. lolz 

the bigger the object the heavier it will be right? but if you were to be bigger and the object were to get bigger, you would have a harder time lifting it then before your size changed and its size changed.


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## Baron Spikey

Now on this topic I fully support the differences between Astartes and Primarch and how they mature- I can only presume that alongside the Primarch's greater bulk they had a more efficient and powerful musculature. 

Not just 'they've got bigger biceps' but the way those muscles interact with the rest of their body and how they're placed. The Space Marines are somewhat constrained by the fact that they have to work from a human template so the placement of muscles and tendons is already a fact which they simply supplement.

Primarchs have no such petty concerns and it's entirely plausible for the Emperor to have engineered their bodies to be much stronger than even their size would suggest.

Well that's one of my theories anyway...


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## XxDreMisterxX

I like it! +1 rep baron spikey! good explanation. here's a neat link i found concerning one of the writers of Black Library and i think it might help this topic if you read it: http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Biology.shtml


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## kaled

gen.ahab said:


> Also The fact remains that there still is no official height given by games workshop for a space marine or the primarchs.


On that subject, the 3rd Ed. Rulebook says that marines stand over 7 feet tall. Now you could argue that 9 feet is over 7 feet, but if they were that tall why say 'over 7 feet' rather than 9 feet? I'd also suggest it implies they're nearer to 7 feet than 8, otherwise you'd say 'nearly 8 feet'. Also, the scale pics in Imperial Armour show marines as about 7 feet tall. These, combined with the conversation in the podcast suggest that GW have a fairly consistent idea of the height of an Astartes - around 7' to 7' 6".

Thus I stand by my earlier suggestions about the height of the Primarchs...


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## Nosediver

kaled said:


> Well, according to the guys at the GW studio, an average marine is about 7' to 7' 6"tall (it's at about 27 minutes into this podcast). We know Alpharius is not so tall that he can't be mistaken for a marine, so I'd say he'd be about 7' 6" - the top end of the scale for a marine. Horus is described in _Horus Rising_ as being to a marine, as a marine is to a man - so if we assume an average human is around 6' and a marine is about 7', then about 8' sounds pretty reasonable for Horus. Therefore I'd say the Primarchs generally being between 7' 6" and 8' 6" with Magnus possibly being a bit taller.
> 
> Of course, if you want your marines to be taller then you'd have to increase all those heights, but personally I'm happy to go with Jes Goodwin's height for them as he's been designing marines for a long time...


Sounds very reasonable. Remember, all the primarchs became leaders of the people they were raised by, but if they were something like 12-15 feet tall I find it hard to believe people could really accept them in the way they did the likes of Russ, Guilliman or Dorn, who became heroes amongst their people. Somebody that size IMO would have to rule like Night Haunter.

Where as 8-10 ft tall, while still truly massive, would be far more accessible than somebody more than twice the average height, where a normal person would barely be able to look him in the crotch. Nothing says tyrant more than rubbing your massive bits in the smaller man's face.


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## kaled

Just a couple more points - in _Visions_, there's a picture of Horus standing next to a marine, now if we assume the marine is tall, 7'6" *, then Horus is roughly 8' 3". Doing a similar thing with Magnus puts him at about 10' 4". These estimates are pretty rough, and of course all artists draw people slightly differently but it gives us a reasonable estimate of the relative heights of marines and Primarchs.

* I'm going to use Jes Goodwin's heights again, he designed Space Marines after all so even if you don't consider what he says to be 'canon', I'd still say that it's a more informed opinion than that of the rest of us.


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## LordLucan

Incidentally, in 'A Thousand Sons', Magnus is shown to be capable of altering his height at will (as is Russ oddly...)


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## Chimaera

LordLucan said:


> Incidentally, in 'A Thousand Sons', Magnus is shown to be capable of altering his height at will (as is Russ oddly...)


Thats an interesting tidbit especially that Russ also has the ability which you would sort of associate with Chaos really.


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## LordLucan

Why would you associate biomancy with chaos? Warp powers are warp powers.


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## Iistaan Venturian

Hmm... According to observing our own genetics, we've seen that people 10,000 years ago were much much smaller than they are now.

Given the 10,000 year difference between when the Primarchs kicked ass and took names and present 40k workings, we know pretty much bugger all beyond estimates and theories, backed up only by the fanatical "mine's bigger" arguments between respective Space Marine chapters.


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## Chimaera

LordLucan said:


> Why would you associate biomancy with chaos? Warp powers are warp powers.


This probably highlights a gap in my 40k knowledge but I thought Sorcery and all that jazz was outlawed. The thought of a Primarch boosting their size at will just seemed a bit Chaos orientated to me. You know big anger, invoke your god kind of stuff. Anyway I await to be brought up to speed.


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## LordLucan

Iistaan Venturian said:


> Hmm... According to observing our own genetics, we've seen that people 10,000 years ago were much much smaller than they are now.


Well, that's not strictly true...


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## hailene

Also it's not so much genetics that helped us grow the extra 10 inches. It's the improvement in our diet.

In fact, did you know that during the dawn of the industrial revolution, when people moved from the countryside to the cities, the average height actually dipped? The terrible environment and poor nutrition affected people's heights.

Also keep in mind, evolution-wise, 10,000 or 40,000 years is absolutely nothing.


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## Chompy Bits

This is quite an interesting argument as I have also wondered about their sizes.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in Decent of Angels it states that the Lion was just under 3 metres tall


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## Thorin Hubertson

I think during the past 10,000 years the Primarchs grew in size - at least in people's remembering. I always imagined the Primarchs being stronger and larger than other people, but not double the size of a "normal" citizen. Just imagine someone who is one or two heads larger in size than you. That is an impressive sight, but still acceptable (otherwise you would just be afraid...).
The daemon Primarchs are another problem, of course, since the corrupting power of chaos will have manipulated their bodies.


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