# Grey knights paladin cheese



## your master (Jun 14, 2008)

Ok so a regular grey knight player has started using paladins carrying nemesis falcons and psycannons on the same model!!!!!??? 
I've read the codex and it doesn't say you can't. I don't think they can what do you lot think?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Don't see why not, he could give it a warding stave if he wanted.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Yep, replace storm bolter with psycannon, replace NFW with falchions. Odd but allowed.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

your master said:


> Ok so a regular grey knight player has started using paladins carrying nemesis falcons and psycannons on the same model!!!!!???
> I've read the codex and it doesn't say you can't. I don't think they can what do you lot think?


The words "paladin" and "cheese" should never be used in the same sentence, because pallies blow. but yeah it is a legal move, though why you would want an extra attack over striking at I6 is beyond me.


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> pallies blow.


Yeah, wound allocation shenanigans on TEQ models totally isn't a powerful tactic. /sarcasm


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Its only normal knights that must give up their cc weapon for a better gun. Normal terminators can do it too.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Every time I pick up the GK book I hate it all the more. 

Here's hoping sixth cuts the nuts off of the codex like eighth FB did for Daemons.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Wax said:


> Yeah, wound allocation shenanigans on TEQ models totally isn't a powerful tactic. /sarcasm


When the unit can move 6" per turn if it wants to shoot, has only leadership 9 (tank shock) and is instagibbed by most anti-tank weapons, it is shit. If you want a combat unit take purifiers, they can fit in a rhino.

Best solution ever to paladins: Ignore them and kill all the other stuff.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> Best solution ever to paladins: Ignore them and kill all the other stuff


If the entire army is paladins...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

asianavatar said:


> If the entire army is paladins...


If the entire army is Paladins, then when you finish laughing, start Tank Shocking. Shoot the Solodins, and take the Objectives, because the Paladins can't take them all.

If it's Kill Points...Tank Shock and Smoke. Easy.

Nemesis Falcons are amazing.

Falchions, not so much.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Well at least you can use your paladins to do a Falchion Punch.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Went to see if anyone had done a Falchion Punch meme and found this gem instead. I think it works just as well :-D


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> When the unit can move 6" per turn if it wants to shoot, has only leadership 9 (tank shock) and is instagibbed by most anti-tank weapons, it is shit. If you want a combat unit take purifiers, they can fit in a rhino.
> 
> Best solution ever to paladins: Ignore them and kill all the other stuff.


Because you can't put pallys in a LR, because pallys can't deepstrike close to an objective, because a squad can't conga-line between two objectives, because every army has s8+ templates (and ap2 at that), because every list will take said templates, because the GK won't have vehicles for you to shoot your AT at, because passing tank shock 83% of the time is bad, because according to your justification basically every unit in 40k is shit.

Sure, I've played morons who stick their pallys in the middle of the board and don't move them. I've also played people who are fucking aggressive and _make_ you deal with them.


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

+ Rep for that find scscofield!


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

DeathKlokk said:


> Every time I pick up the GK book I hate it all the more.
> 
> Here's hoping sixth cuts the nuts off of the codex like eighth FB did for Daemons.


Could have sworn I'd seen a quote of yours floating around that labeled "Cheese!" as the cry of the unprepared :biggrin:


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Wax said:


> Because you can't put pallys in a LR, because pallys can't deepstrike close to an objective, because a squad can't conga-line between two objectives, because every army has s8+ templates (and ap2 at that), because every list will take said templates, because the GK won't have vehicles for you to shoot your AT at, because passing tank shock 83% of the time is bad, because according to your justification basically every unit in 40k is shit.
> 
> Sure, I've played morons who stick their pallys in the middle of the board and don't move them. I've also played people who are fucking aggressive and _make_ you deal with them.


I hope you understand that i am looking at this from a purely competitive standpoint, maybe in casual games pallies are good, but in tournaments they are not

Well, armies without both AP2 weapons and S8 and tanks are generally shit (there may be some exceptions), but i will break this down for you. Also, Melta is paladins worst enemy along with lances, most competitive armies have an abundance of one or the other

1.) A Paladin unit, let's just assume 5 rather than the even worse unit of 10. So, you are paying around the 375 pts mark for a unit of 5 paladins, which in itself is a ridiculous points sink for a unit that will generally never achieve the common internet goal of "making their points back", because they will be fed a sacrificial cheapass unit and then hosed to death with massed S8 firepower. This is called bubblewrapping and is a pretty common and well known tactic. 

2.) By putting them in a Land raider, you are now paying over 600 points for a single unit, also wasting one of your heavy support choices on the shitty land raider. Land raiders that are not Crusaders have no idea what their purpose is, they are like some confused teenager. It is a long range gunboat that is vulnerable to melta, yet it is designed to be an assault transport. So once it delivers its load of paladins it WILL die. A better option is a chimera, because it is dirt cheap, however that makes it nice and easy to Stunlock, so it is a bit of a lose-lose situation with paladins in transports

3.) Ignore them. If someone hasn't taken a Land Raider for them, which is generally a wise idea, then you just bloody ignore them and dismantle the rest of the army. Like I said before, Paladins have a threat range of 30" maximum, and that is with their shooting, with a maximum 12" threat range in assault. They therefore rely on you drifting into their threat range or trying to force your valuable units towards them. In an era of mech, you simply take out the dreadnoughts by focussing fire in the first turn then drive around the paladins in your Rhinos/ Razorbacks/ Venoms/ Raiders/ Chimeras blaring "Can't Touch This" on the radio

4.) Leadership. Ld9 is in no way bad, but when paying around the 400 point mark for a unit, a 1/4 chance of running away from a tank shock is pretty woeful. So once again, you draw them in and feed them a bubble wrap squad, then hit them with a bunch of tank shocks (most armies have about 6 tanks, a lot of armies have a lot more). So once they fail one, every time you tank shock them again they will automatically continue running. Then once you cause 2 casualties in the unit they will continue fleeing again. It is very easy to make them stroll off the board.


So, Paladins are not awesome enough to justify their ridiculous points cost and are dealt with just as easily as most TEQ units.

I hope this has illustrated my point a little clearer


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

And yet I've seen one squad of paladins destroy an entire wraithwing Necron army. More than once. They are still competitive (Draigowing), regardless of your opinion and 'justifications'.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

don_mondo said:


> And yet I've seen one squad of paladins destroy an entire wraithwing Necron army. More than once. They are still competitive (Draigowing), regardless of your opinion and 'justifications'.


How many GTs or large tournaments has a Draigowing ever won? Wraithwing is not a very good build either, so that is really as much of a muchness, wraiths are not a "Good" cc unit, they are decent, but they serve as more of a tarpit and durable unit, designed to take out the like of tactical squads.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

don_mondo said:


> And yet I've seen one squad of paladins destroy an entire wraithwing Necron army. More than once. They are still competitive (Draigowing), regardless of your opinion and 'justifications'.


Don, I respeck'cha, and I'mma let you finish - but using an anecdote to try to counter a post full of well defined and explained reasons?

Wraithwing isn't a good way to play Necrons, it's a rock army, like Paladins. ANY army with a hard counter like that is unbalanced and a bad choice for a tournament.

Being a bigger rock, especially when your army is DESIGNED to take on things like Wraiths (ohai, you're now T3, I'm I3 despite Whip Coils, and I'm S6, so don't need to use the Bro Banner - I also has a 2+ and am fully complex, so your scattered Rends mean nothing kthnxbai) in close combat is completely meaningless.

Are Paladins the worst unit in the game or Codex? No. Are they the worst build from the Codex? No. Are they as good as Purifiers, Strike Squads or (the good) Henchmen? Not even close.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

OK, let's just say I disagree with him and let it go at that. Not worth arguing about.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

The new edition is probably going to change all this. If PWs really are ap3 and units can assault off the DS then Paly and Mordrak lists are goiing to be very popular/powerful. I run a list with 6 Meltas and 5 MM but am still not looking forward to facing TEQ in the rumoured 6th ed.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I got a GK player to ragequit after two turns. Doubled up on Doomsday Arks and killed an entire unit of ten with two shots, after twin linking from the Stalker. Two S9 AP1 large blasts meant a lot of dead Paladins. He immediately declared Doomsday Arks overpowered and left.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

I happened to play against Draigowing at SCHOOL LEAGUE of all places  (Only 600pts total). I played mech IG with only ONE command squad wielding 4meltas and a Plasma Pistol (in a mehtal bawks, no less), and i kinda wiped his army with that unit alone (and i think i made him cry because i introduced his "durable" army to my even more "durable" army, despite frequently apologising for having an OP build :L ). Meltavets, Medusas (equally as effective as DDArks), Vendettas and even Devil Dogs love Pallies - i would treat them similarly to AV13+ Battle Tanks in terms of target priority and resource allocation. Plus a smattering of Psycannons is not that scary (and if you go for a big hatestomp (vs draigowing, i would take on the largest unit first, ideally outside of 12" range) unit, you will die to armour saturation) to AV12 (you still Pen on a 6, so rending is wasted), compared to a larger force. Pallies are a great way to annoy hordes who rely on quantity rather than quality of attacks (nids/orks, even with the PK Nob), but against anything that spams meltaguns is set to lose (and points efficiency per kill is SOOOOO low, given that IG meltavets have to get ~2 Pally kills to make their points back, roughly the same with a DD or a Vendetta also).
My 2p worth
Antonius 
Sorry about the slight threadomancy (I always love a pally rant). Nice Meme there Iron Angel .


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> If PWs really are ap3 and units can assault off the DS then Paly and Mordrak lists are goiing to be very popular/powerful.


Sup marines, daemons turn baby.

Better cross your fingers the latter isn't true.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Wraithwing isn't a good way to play Necrons, it's a rock army, like Paladins. ANY army with a hard counter like that is unbalanced and a bad choice for a tournament.





Iron Angel said:


> I got a GK player to ragequit after two turns. Doubled up on Doomsday Arks and killed an entire unit of ten with two shots, after twin linking from the Stalker. Two S9 AP1 large blasts meant a lot of dead Paladins. He immediately declared Doomsday Arks overpowered and left.


I agree that a pure Wraithwing is not very good. But Wraithwing backed up with Doomsday Arks, is very deadly, and how I run it.










Also. I love this image.


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## kain1989 (Dec 1, 2009)

I wouldn't say that draigo wing is terrible or great. I think it gets a bad rap because like mephiston, some armies simply can't deal with them. I've never been afraid of them, but I run a kan wall, and walkers love some paladins. But when you see them against a "battleforce army" they are difficult to deal with.


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## paddlepop lion (Apr 7, 2011)

Mc muffin do you want to have the same argument again where you end up agreeing that pallies are NOT what you though they were and decide to actually test them instead of theorising badly???

Pallies are eccelent even from a compettetive standpoint. Sure they suck when a noob plays them and walks within 12" of a wall of 8 tanks without karamazov. 
Sure they can be ignored when some dingbat forgets he has 4 PSYCANNONS (best gun in the game) and sure they are pretty ordinary when you dont combat sqauad against an army of 25 units of 5 T3 dudes with no armor 

But a good player, playing them right can do horrible horrible things to the game. I have on mulitple occasions watched whole guard armies do everything in thier power to kill 10 pallies, draigo and karamazov and just get tabled. Im not talking some retard either im talking a multiple tournament winning guard list run by its multiple tournament winning pilot. 
Necrons almost cant beat them, you need to tailor a list and not have the imortant bits shot up.
Dark eldar is its worst matchup and even they struggle to get through them before taking too much damage to win the mission.

Tank shocking is a wing and a prayer even without karamazov but with him it doesnt even work. People talk alot of smack about pallies and how crap they are but i bet NONE of you have actually put them through a decent trial.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

paddlepop lion said:


> Mc muffin do you want to have the same argument again where you end up agreeing that pallies are NOT what you though they were and decide to actually test them instead of theorising badly???
> 
> Pallies are eccelent even from a compettetive standpoint. Sure they suck when a noob plays them and walks within 12" of a wall of 8 tanks without karamazov.
> Sure they can be ignored when some dingbat forgets he has 4 PSYCANNONS (best gun in the game) and sure they are pretty ordinary when you dont combat sqauad against an army of 25 units of 5 T3 dudes with no armor
> ...



You'll not that my comments were made BEFORE we had our little discussion.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Since there hasn't been a legitimate Rules question in a few pages...


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