# Horus....not his fault?



## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

Been reading the first few books of HH and I must admit Im a little disappointed in how "easily" Horus apparently fell into Chaos.

I was totally going with the flow of pride and jealousy and all that, but when we got to Horus's wounding and subsequent 'voodoo-healing' I had to stop and think.

Honestly it makes it look like the whole falling to the dark side bit is a result of demonic corruption or brainwashing from his illness.

It seems as though Horus didn't slowly become a reluctant rebel, but took a quick 180 degree about face into full-on murderous savagery that I can only conclude that it wasn't his doing at all but rather some sort of demon possession from the healing ritual.

it isn't just that he rebelled...its that his whole character seemed to change overnight which leads me to think that Horus's 'soul' isn't home anymore.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

I think you are 100% right on that part.

It has everything to do with that "healing" ritual.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

LordNecross said:


> I think you are 100% right on that part.
> 
> It has everything to do with that "healing" ritual.


It was a healing ritual. It healed his diseased heart that believed in the emperor:crazy:.

He was enlightened to the primordial truth!.


-random mouth frothing-


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

According to the old fluff, when the Emperor struck down Horus, the dark gods fled his body and the full horror of what he had done settled on him. The Emperor hesitated to finish off Horus, but realized that due to his severe mauling that He would not be there to do the deed should Horus survive and be corrupted again.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

It's as Guiiliman said to the Lion in _The Unremembered Empire_:

"Our brothers, even the Lupercal, have not turned against us. They have been turned [by Chaos]."

Though according to Inquisitor Ravenor, Chaos only unlocks what is already within us.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Best way to describe what happened is that Chaos used half truths and manipulations to get horus to do what they wanted.
The first book made it a point to show that Horus was a political player he was concerned with self image and wanted to be shown as a good guy.

That's the Reason why Loken was the one who had to suggest sending the legion to help the imperial army with that siege, Horus wanted to do it, but by suggesting it he would have been made out to be a brutal leader, instead of a benevolent one.

The entire interex incident is an example of horus failing in negotiations and knowing perfectly well that he should have been able to solve that without bloodshed.

I think that's the main two instances, and I'll admit that my horus history is rusty the basic point is that horus fell because there was an inkling of self doubt, Chaos showed him a future where he was forgetten and then left it up to him to think of reasons why that would have happened.

he started down the path with the best of intentions but he lost himself in it.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I blame Erebus.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

True. But Chaos just unlocks things you would never act on. It just destroys your personality and moral filter. It destroys what makes you, you. Saying it unlocks anything is just an oversimplification and wording to make it seem beneficial.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The entire interex incident is an example of horus failing in negotiations and knowing perfectly well that he should have been able to solve that without bloodshed.


More like "Erebus kicking up a shit-storm so large there was no going back".

Once Erebus took the anathema the Imperium, in the Interex's eyes, was tainted by Chaos. There'd be no negotiations from that point on.


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## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

Good points, but I don't buy the fact he was in control of his thoughts,

Seriously its a huge leap to go from "_Im politically ambitious and I think I could do a better job than the current guy_" to "_I think I'll conduct vile body-violating experiments and virus bomb an entire planet to achieve my political goals"_



Realistically, instead of killing the planet (and thereby turning even more marines against him), Horus could have just sent his enemies down to the surface....and then warped out. He could have been on the way to Terra and no one would have any clue where in the galaxy the lost legions were....or even to know to look for them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJ95 said:


> Realistically, instead of killing the planet (and thereby turning even more marines against him), Horus could have just sent his enemies down to the surface....and then warped out. He could have been on the way to Terra and no one would have any clue where in the galaxy the lost legions were....or even to know to look for them.


Never would have worked. Not all Loyalists could have been sent down for various reasons (look to the Eisenstein and Saul Tarvitz as examples).

And why would you leave them there? On the chance they were discovered before Horus had defeated the Emperor, that's 30-50,000 Loyalists he could have swept from the board for basically free.

If Angron hadn't decided to roll down and party with 5000 of his warriors, Horus probably could have salvaged the situation even after Saul's warning.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Angron so loved to party. Love that Angron.


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## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

hailene said:


> Never would have worked. Not all Loyalists could have been sent down for various reasons (look to the Eisenstein and Saul Tarvitz as examples).
> .


 
True...but consider the fact that without the bombing, The Eisenstein would have never made its escape.

Horus could have basically shown up on the Emperors doorstep completely unannounced and Rogal Dorn would have still been stranded in the warp and thus unable to protect Terra. (Since the Eisenstein never detonated its engines)

We can nit pick strategy....however my main point is that Horus's switch to violence...._extreme obscene violence_ points to something beyond mere political ambition and thus some form of possession.


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## el_machinae (Nov 17, 2014)

It's a major theme in the view of the _inhabitants_ that Chaos feeds upon weaknesses of the soul and that a 'victim' isn't so much of a victim but willing participant. This is really mostly not true. Chaos is an external influence, or at least quite heavily so.

Now, some people specifically open themselves to Chaos, but it would probably be an error to say that the majority of victims do. It would be like blaming someone for being addicted to heroin if they were held down and forcibly injected. Or someone's behaviour changing because of a brain tumor. Sure, there's an aspect of 'will' involved, but the influence has a heavy exogneous component.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJ95 said:


> True...but consider the fact that without the bombing, The Eisenstein would have never made its escape.


And when the crew of the _Eisenstein _was like "Hey, why aren't we picking up our men?" Horus just shrugs his shoulders and they move on?

And also remember, the likelihood of the Loyalists on the planet calling for help is probably pretty high. The Librarians haven't been recalled at this point, so there's probably some of them down there. Furthermore, without the total annihilation of the planet's population, there's probably several surviving astropathic choirs on the Istvaan III.

It was a lot of coincidences that allowed the Loyalists to survive the way they did.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Never would have worked. Not all Loyalists could have been sent down for various reasons (look to the Eisenstein and Saul Tarvitz as examples).
> 
> And why would you leave them there? On the chance they were discovered before Horus had defeated the Emperor, that's 30-50,000 Loyalists he could have swept from the board for basically free.
> 
> If Angron hadn't decided to roll down and party with 5000 of his warriors, Horus probably could have salvaged the situation even after Saul's warning.


You'd think Horus would have realized Angron was going to do it personally. Angrons sense of honor made him go down to give those men a chance to kill him.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Angrons sense of honor made him go down to give those men a chance to kill him.


I find this doubtful. If he was worried about that, he'd landed before the virus bombing. Perhaps he would have fought his men while they were still on-board his vessels.

I think the likelier reason (based upon Angron's actions in _Betrayer_) is the Nails started ticking and that got the best of him.


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## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

hailene said:


> And when the crew of the _Eisenstein _was like "Hey, why aren't we picking up our men?" Horus just shrugs his shoulders and they move on?


 

Sure. Why not?

The crew was barely..._barely_...willing to commit what they saw as mutiny based on the blatant mass murder of tens of thousands of allied troops at the hands of their commander.

Dial it back several magnitudes to..._oops we got an emergency distress call and gotta boogie...we'll be back to pick you up later_....and the crew wouldn't bat an eye.


I'm willing to bet the troops on the surface wouldn't either...._you go get them sir...don't worry about us. We got these blokes on the ground._


All Horus needed was a bit of time to sneak up on Terra unannounced. So what if the guys on the planet did call for help...what would they say?...._ummm Horus took of to handle some emergency but he hasn't been back for awhile....we therefore interpret his as an attempt to form a coup and someone better warn the Emperor...evidence? No, no evidence but.....hello?....Hello anyone still on the line?_


Or more likely:

_Yeah he told us to wait for a bit....but its been a month or so and we were wondering if anyone was coming to pick us up....oh really?....Conquered Terra three weeks ago? Emperor Horus the First?....Well gosh darn...didn't see that one coming._

:laugh:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> I find this doubtful. If he was worried about that, he'd landed before the virus bombing. Perhaps he would have fought his men while they were still on-board his vessels.
> 
> I think the likelier reason (based upon Angron's actions in _Betrayer_) is the Nails started ticking and that got the best of him.


Both interpretations fit his character, One of the major things about Angron is that he's mad that he never got to die with his gladiator army back on his planet, the emperor took that from him. Perhaps in Angrons mind seeing his sons die to orbital bombardment was too much, there was a book where Angron was talking to a wounded terminator on the surface of isstivan he was fairly civil considering what he just did.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJ95 said:


> The crew was barely...barely...willing to commit what they saw as mutiny based on the blatant mass murder of tens of thousands of allied troops at the hands of their commander.


They were barely willing to commit mutiny _before_ Horus virus-bombed the planet. Afterwards most of them were willing to run. There were a few wondering if Horus was right. 



CJ95 said:


> All Horus needed was a bit of time to sneak up on Terra unannounced.


You make it sound like showing up Terra's doorstep would be the end. The Imperial Fists were already fortifying the planet and were there in strength.

Wiping 30,000-50,000 Loyalists at minimal cost is an advantage Horus could not afford to miss. Even if Horus somehow managed to conqueror Terra via surprised attack, someone else--probably Guilliman or the Lion--would be at his throat. Having half a Legion of troops on Isstvan ready for righteous vengeance against their traitorous kin is probably something Horus would like to avoid.

And, remember, according to the original plan, that's exactly what Horus would have done. He would have virus bombed the planet and immediately moved towards Terra. Have his cake and eat it, too.

If only Saul's warning hadn't reached the Loyalists on the planet.

If only the Eisenstein hadn't escaped.

If only Angron hadn't decided to rock and roll on the planet.

If only the Loyalists hadn't managed such a brilliant and successful defense that lasted months instead of days.

If if if if if.



Reaper45 said:


> there was a book where Angron was talking to a wounded terminator on the surface of isstivan he was fairly civil considering what he just did.


You're talking about the short story "Lord of the Red Sands." He didn't seem terribly impressed with his sons. Described them as "...an army fattened by centuries of easy slaughter, and they cheer him the way his masters once cheered when he butchered beasts for their entertainment."

Angron fights for what he believes is freedom. That's why he wants to kill the "tyrannical" Emperor.

Judging by Angron's decisions in _Betrayer_ he just wanted to kill.

Again, if he worried about giving his sons an honorable death, he wouldn't have agreed to have them virus bombed.


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## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

hailene said:


> They were barely willing to commit mutiny _before_ Horus virus-bombed the planet. Afterwards most of them were willing to run. There were a few wondering if Horus was right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On the first point, better re-read that. Until the order came through for the bombing, Garros and the rest had no inkling what was up other than Horus had some odd tactics.

On the second point...no the Imperial Fists were not on Terra yet. They were 'becalmed' in the warp and it was only when Eisenstein detonated her engines that they had a beacon to escape.

(This whole discussion is far from my original point, but vey interesting)


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

venomlust said:


> I blame Erebus.


Erebus is a massive tube and needs a bolt round up his nose.....


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJ95 said:


> On the first point, better re-read that. Until the order came through for the bombing, Garros and the rest had no inkling what was up other than Horus had some odd tactics.


Negative. They knew about it because of the warning from Saul. This was before the order to ready the Life-eater bombs and before the Traitor Captain (I've forgotten his name) on the Eisenstein received orders to deal with Garro.



CJ95 said:


> On the second point...no the Imperial Fists were not on Terra yet


I stand corrected. I reviewed a few sources and it seems the majority of the Imperial Fists were stranded with Dorn.

Still, the idea of just leaving half a Legion of men on a planet while some "emergency" happened seems beyond believable.

And remember the plan was to drop the Loyalists, virus bomb them, and head directly to Terra. Angron screwed that up, but I think Horus took the opportunity Angron offered (by slowing down the Isstvan III operation) to cook up Isstvan V.


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## CJ95 (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, the point is moot, and I will make allowances for my own incomplete knowledge.

I've only begun the HH series myself and am only calling things as I see them so far.

(I literally finished _FULGRIM_ about 15 minutes ago and thus only now learned what Istvaan V was)


That said, let me return to the original point of this post: demonic possesion and resposibility for ones deeds.

Learning now that Fulgrim repented at the last moment but is now possesed against his will, does this leave open the possibility for his redemption?

Forgive me if this is answered in later books, but its a tantalizing idea.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJ95 said:


> Learning now that Fulgrim repented at the last moment but is now possesed against his will, does this leave open the possibility for his redemption?


There's a bit of a spoiler about that, but it'll probably leave you pretty angry.

The direction they took Fulgrim upset a lot of the users on the board (myself included!)


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> According to the old fluff, when the Emperor struck down Horus, the dark gods fled his body and the full horror of what he had done settled on him. The Emperor hesitated to finish off Horus, but realized that due to his severe mauling that He would not be there to do the deed should Horus survive and be corrupted again.


Considering what we now know about illuminati, there's a strong chance that Horus would have become one since he had been cleansed by the Emperor.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Pretty much what has been said about half truths. 

I don't believe Horus was the weak one. Besides the fact that the warp has the ability to actually warp any concept or physical thing, I believe Horus was the only candidate able to lead the Heresy.


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