# Taking Down A Dreadknight With CSM



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

The title says it all really. How would one kill the new monsterous creature hunting_, S7 T7 W4 2+/4+ Grey Knights Dreadknight _using a chaos space marine army? (Based on the leaked dreadknight stat line ofc )

Im having difficulty thinking of way, lascannon it to death with obliterators maybe...?

Any Suggestions??


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Where do you get T7 and 4++ save from? I just read the codex today, and that isn't in there. Basically, it isn't much more difficult to kill than a Carnifex. Keep in mind that it has to DS though.


----------



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

:O Do you mean the leaked codex or the real thing? Ive only seen the leaked pages which says it has T7 and 2/4+ save

I wasn't aware the real codex was available to read yet >_<


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

like with anything, autocannon havocs, lascannons, melta guns....massed rapid fire bolt guns.


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Not surprising the S7T72+/4++ was a _wee bit too good_ for 130 pts. Go figure...

Shoot it just like everything else with MC stats in the game and be done with it. The main difference here is that its got a 2+ save which makes normal bolters less effective so use them at other targets. Failing that Berzerkers are always an option...


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lash it. It can't do anything if it's being whipped around the field.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

whats its I does anyone know


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah, I saw the actual codex, and am getting an army . The stats say S6, but it's got an ability that makes it S7. Then you can give him a Thunder Hammer (Nemesis Hammer), but that's kindof a wast of points imo. A Greatsword, now _there's _a cc beast!


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Even better, you can Scout move D3 of them 30" across the table, and they move like Jump Infantry after that. I hope you brought a lot of bubblewrap units...


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

...its called plasma.

Well more realistically lots of plasma, but you get the picture. 

Ps. all my CSM builds have 5-10 plasma gun equivalents so I am not overly concerned.


----------



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

So basically, Nuke him with plasma cannons and/or lascannons? 

What about tackling him in CC?

I was thinking of maybe using a daemon prince of khorne or nurgle but i dont know whether thats such a good idea with him being a daemon and all


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

...yah CCing the bugger is not really a good idea....however if you really want to just take a unit of 7-10 tzeentchian terminators with just fists. You get the same save, and your to wound roll is just a bit worse then his, yet you get 14-29 - 21-30 attacks to his 4-6?


----------



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

As much as I <3 the sound of that many power fist attacks... its probably going to be cheaper and safer to stand back and blast'em with everything I have. 

However, I use tzeentchian termy's so I will give them some fists just in-case he decides to deep strike them near me


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On the plus side you know he is coming to you so no need to deep strike.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

cc is a bad idea, if you plan to use a Psyker (DP included ), because GK get preferred enemy against Daemons and Psykers. Also before you assault, check what weapon he's got. A sword means he rerolls hits and wounds, while a hammer is a TH in all respects (but it doesn't lower his initiative sadly ). But yeah, Plasma guns came to mind against the army as a whole, seeing how few of them there'll be.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Why hasn't anyone said a chaos lord with a Nurgle daemon weapon yet?

It's like he was made for such an opponent.
What's the transformer-wannabe's initiative?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

...it has a 4+in with 4 wounds, and depending on its build will instant kill a lord that's why no one has suggested a nurgle lord.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

As utterly _fantastic_ as that sounds Luke, it doesn't answer my question.

I never said the lord would survive, but wounding a high-toughness creature is what the plaguebringer should be used for. Maybe you should think before posting?

In theory most of the lords attacks should miss, but considering that he can have a potential 11 attacks, there's a very large room for error, which could go either way.

After having a look through my chaos codex again I thought about using a bloodfeeder too. The sheer amount of attacks (I think the highest potential is close to twenty) at least a good chunk should wound, even if that's only on a six.

Also, you wouldn't have to consider any advantages of taking a juggernaut either, as it'll hit on a six regardless of whether the lords strength is four or five. So you'd have to go with a bike, jump pack, or transport to get him there, which is much faster than a steed. 

I think the bloodfeeder would handle this situation better actually now.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah, but Bloodfeeder is very risky to use: a single 1 will cause a wound, and disallow you to attack. Also, the fact that you agreed that the Nurgle Lord will die is proof enough not to take him against such an opponent: Why take a 150pt model+retinue to attempt to kill a 130pt model, if the chances of surviving is very slim? A single wound will insta-kill him, due to force weapons. Also, keep in mind the Dreadknight has a 4++ save.

Therefore, although it may kill it, is it worth taking the chance?


----------



## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Does anyone know what the dreadoughts other psychic power, "Dark Excomunication" does?
It says on the GW website that it removes "gifts of chaos to even the odds"?


----------



## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

OrdoMalleus said:


> Does anyone know what the dreadoughts other psychic power, "Dark Excomunication" does?
> It says on the GW website that it removes "gifts of chaos to even the odds"?


Yeah it makes all daemonic gifts useless for a turn. It doesn't affect CSMs though


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It's a 4-wound T6 Terminator. The leaked codex has incorrect stats.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

^ This has been mentioned already .


----------



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

What about a Nurgle daemon prince with warp time? It would even the fight out as the DP would have S6 T6. 

I havn''t seen the rules the GK's get against daemons and psykers yet, so i am not 100% sure on whether it would be a good idea :scratchhead:


----------



## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Against dreadknights psykers are at -4 (maybe 3) Ld. So warptime would still go off about 50% of the time. God help you if there are other Gks in combat though. The prince would get owned. They have a ton of stuff against daemons and psykers


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually the only single 1vs1 contender CSM have against the dreadknight (besides abbaddon) is typhus. He auto passes his force weapon check, and will on average generate 6 attacks, and only one has to get through to kill the dreadknight. Still if you biff your attack roll you will lose abbaddon.

Really if you want to CC it the only reasonable choice is the same for any marine army facing MC's....Pf terminators.


----------



## Steaknchips (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd. Like to point out the leadership penalty for psycic tests only applys if the power targets a grey knight unit. Things like warptime are uneffected in this respect. Also the penalty is only -1.


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Just shoot the bugger with Oblits.

TL Plasmaguns will make mincemeat of it, just like they do with every other 2+ model in the game.


----------



## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Steaknchips said:


> I'd. Like to point out the leadership penalty for psycic tests only applys if the power targets a grey knight unit. Things like warptime are uneffected in this respect. Also the penalty is only -1.


Yes, its only-1 if your against the dreadknight. The -4 is only if your power has any effect within 12" of a dreadnought.

Out of Intrest, If you can get 2 Dreadnoughts within 12" of a psyker with LD 8 or less does that make them automatically fail all Psychic tests?


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Just shoot the bugger with Oblits.
> 
> TL Plasmaguns will make mincemeat of it, just like they do with every other 2+ model in the game.


Assuming you have 6 Oblits in Rapid Fire range (unlikely), you get 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 4 of them unsaved. You just manage to kill it. You just spent all of your HS slots shooting at it, so the Knights player is probably happy about burning 130pts that way. Assuming that he doesn't have two more, and any that do live are in your deployment zone turn 1 if he plays silly buggers with Scout moves.


----------



## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

btw typhus doesnt auto pass his force weapon only his psychic powers.

You could always shoot it to bits with plasma then have a nurgle lord finish it off without the risk of losing him (it's I4 right?)


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I still am exited about this new codex, finally I can justify my mentally unstable 20 Plasma gun list......hurray for excess (There will also be cake, and rhino pie for all the GK's in attendance).


----------



## OneBulletAtATime (Mar 11, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> I still am exited about this new codex, finally I can justify my mentally unstable 20 Plasma gun list......hurray for excess (There will also be cake, and rhino pie for all the GK's in attendance).


20 Plasma Guns :O 

20 times the chance melt your own face xD that is mentally unstable like chaos should be


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Assuming you have 6 Oblits in Rapid Fire range (unlikely), you get 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 4 of them unsaved. You just manage to kill it. You just spent all of your HS slots shooting at it, so the Knights player is probably happy about burning 130pts that way. Assuming that he doesn't have two more, and any that do live are in your deployment zone turn 1 if he plays silly buggers with Scout moves.


I agree Oblits alone aren't gonna cut the ice, but remember their plasma guns are twin-linked. They're gonna hit a bit more than that.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Forgot the twin linked, my bad. :fool:


----------



## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

i don't know all the rules about dreadknights, but how would kharn fare? 

he is s6 I6 on the charge, and he ignores all force and psychic abilities. i don't know what the dreadknights weapon strength, so we may have to worry about kharn being insta-killed, but other than that it seems a charge with kharn and zerkers may be able to take him out on the first go. 

have we found what the dreadknights actual initiative is?


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

uber said:


> i don't know all the rules about dreadknights, but how would kharn fare?
> 
> he is s6 I6 on the charge, and he ignores all force and psychic abilities. i don't know what the dreadknights weapon strength, so we may have to worry about kharn being insta-killed, but other than that it seems a charge with kharn and zerkers may be able to take him out on the first go.



Kharn and zerkers might be good, though with the thing's high T it's a bit of a crap shoot. If only chaos had Digital weapons. 

But given that a zerker squad with Kharn can throw out 4 plasma pistol shots before the charge, it's not impossible. 

4 plasma shots = 3 hits = between 1-2 wounds.

Kharn = 7 attacks = 5-6 hits = 3 wounds

Zerks (8) = 33 attacks = 21 hits = 8-9 wounds.

So a charge on it would mean around 5 wounds that need to be saved on his inv, and 8 saved on the termi 2+ save. Encouraging, but I've seen more one-sided assaults fail!

Also, all that plasma on the zerks gets expensive.


----------



## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

it just seems really unbalanced to have the ability to move a unit like a dreadknight 12 inches after a forward deployment in addition to such amazing CC abilities.

it's like you will get one shot to take it out before it charges, and then you are screwed.

and if he's fielding 3 of them....say goodnight.

there has to be some catch, otherwise it is seriously unbalanced.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> there has to be some catch, otherwise it is seriously unbalanced.


I admit, its stats are very impressive, but it isn't impossible to kill. Kharn and the Zerkers would work well, because a 5+ inv save won't protect it from much harm, and it's only In4, so the 'Zerkers would go first. The problem is the T6 and WS5, paired up with the fact that he'll most likely be carrying a Great Sword, which allow him to reroll hits and wounds, and obviously counts as a Force Weapon.

Just keep in mind that these things always Deep Strike, so long-range weaponry isn't an option, and his guns are powerful enough to cause major damage if you aren't careful. Plasma guns and Melta guns seem like the most viable option to me.


----------



## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

since it has to DS, we should be able to focus massive melta and plasma on it from our troops while saving our HS fire to go down table.

can these things charge off the DS? if they can't then following a smart deployment we should be able to wound from shooting and finish off on the charge before it ever gets to do anything. the fact that GKs have no artillery means our boys will be safe afterwards to go find cover again.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still still advocate using PF termies if your really scarred of GK's. However this may be more in line with fighting fire with fire. However last time I checked CSM terminators are cheaper, and almost just as effective so its a win win against GK....not many other armies but GK's but still.


----------



## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

terminators would probably be good. since mark of nurgle would be pointless, I'd go with either mark of Tzeentch/Khorne (probably Tzeentch). then give them all combi-meltas/plasmas and powerfists. that Dreadknight (if all goes well and the dice don't hate you) should die.
plasma: 5 guys, 10 plasma shots (4+ to wound and no armor save)
melta: 5 guys, 5 shots (3+ to wound and no armor save); less likely to hit

fry him with plasma then punch the shit out of him in close-combat.


----------



## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I SO want to turn one of these into Chaos Spawn with a Sorcerer 

:victory:


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

uber said:


> since it has to DS, we should be able to focus massive melta and plasma on it from our troops while saving our HS fire to go down table.
> 
> can these things charge off the DS? if they can't then following a smart deployment we should be able to wound from shooting and finish off on the charge before it ever gets to do anything. the fact that GKs have no artillery means our boys will be safe afterwards to go find cover again.


No, they don't charge off Deep Strike, but it's a waste to Deep Srtike them. Grand Stratergy can give D3 of them scouts and with Teleporters, that's a 30" Scout move +12" Jump Pack Move + 6" Assault.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Let them get the codex out first and people can give you ACTUAL answers as opposed to speculation (however accurate the answers may turn out to be).


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Epidemius said:


> terminators would probably be good. since mark of nurgle would be pointless, I'd go with either mark of Tzeentch/Khorne (probably Tzeentch). then give them all combi-meltas/plasmas and powerfists. that Dreadknight (if all goes well and the dice don't hate you) should die.
> plasma: 5 guys, 10 plasma shots (4+ to wound and no armor save)
> melta: 5 guys, 5 shots (3+ to wound and no armor save); less likely to hit
> 
> fry him with plasma then punch the shit out of him in close-combat.


only T6. Plasma wounds on a 3 & melta on a 2. so that much more effective...




Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> No, they don't charge off Deep Strike, but it's a waste to Deep Srtike them. Grand Stratergy can give D3 of them scouts and with Teleporters, that's a 30" Scout move +12" Jump Pack Move + 6" Assault.


with the jump pack they are 205 points each without any other upgrades. If you're fielding 3 at 1500 points you have 1100 points left. Throw in minimum 200 point troops (5x terminator grey nights - again, no upgrades) - following the 1 troop for every 500 pointss, and another 200 point HQ gives you a whopping

(1) grey night HQ
(3) 5-man terminator squads
(3) dreadknights

Nothing has any upgrades (beyond the personal teleporters) & you're at 1350+ points with 19 models. If you are playing Chaos you dakka the hell out of (1) dreadknight & charge a sacrificial squad into another one. It'll most definitely tear through your squad - but if you're cult troops you'll be fearless & with a squad size of 6-9 you should last the magical 2 rounds of combat before being annihilated in HIS turn. Dakka the next one turn 2.

I like the berserker plasma idea posted earlier. (2) squads of zerkers in rhinos w/ (3) plasma guns each can easily tie up the dreadknights. AND have a decent possibility of ruining them in a single turn. Of course the zerker squads are costly but when their finished with the dreadknight they are still scoring units that will never flee...


----------



## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

i think i would run

kharn w/ 8 zerks in a rhino (3 PP)

chosen with 5 PG

8 PM w/ 2 MG
8 CSM w/ MG and IoCG

defiler
2 oblits

despite how scary some of their stuff is, i think we will find that the versatility of CSM will be more than enough to handle such a specialized codex.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here is the list I plan to take against GK's

Chosen 6X2 IcG, PGX4, Rhino+CB
Kharn
CSM 10X2, IcG, MeltaX2, Rhino
Havocs 6X2 MLX3, ACX3 (I just like AC's ok)
Oblitorators 3

Wish I had my codex on me, but the list is under 1500.


----------



## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

my buddy who is a space wolf player called me to crow that chaos was in big trouble.

of course GK has some great units for dealing with some of our stuff, but we have enough winning builds that we can accommodate the new threats. i wonder how long it will be before one of the players in our club brings them to play.


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

GKs will fall to the same thing Chaos uses against any real threat: Obliterators.

GKs are severely lacking in S8/AP2 firepower, so they have no efficient way to Insta-kill our Oblits from range. We can just blast them using the standard Lascannon>Plas Cannon>TL Plasma flow-chart like we have always done.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

just laugh at the model and at your opponent, belittle them for making the choice to buy such a shit model and being so moronic as to bring such an insult to the eyes out on the table, once they have begun to cry really rub it home as to what a pathetic excuse for a human being they are for having an optimusbayknight in there army that eventually they remove it from the table, or better yet smash it against the wall.

job done, optimusbayknight defeated

this should easily be implemented by competetive players, as they spend most of there gaming time belittleing opponents for choices they make anyway.


----------



## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Chaos will be just fine. You guys have tons of options and it'll only get easier once the playtesting begins. And as one guy pointed out the GK shit is still fairly expensive and oblits are assmazing. I bet the guy who plays the Lash list and wins all the tourneys up here will continue to do so.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Champion Alaric said:


> Chaos will be just fine. You guys have tons of options and it'll only get easier once the playtesting begins. And as one guy pointed out the GK shit is still fairly expensive and oblits are assmazing. I bet the guy who plays the Lash list and wins all the tourneys up here will continue to do so.


Maybe, but I don't play a lash list on my chaos droogies and I really don't want to be forced to!

Also, being a psyker (at least the kind without psychic defenses, like CSM) around GKs is usually a very poor idea. 

I don't see CSM as being -particularly- boned by the new codex. That honor goes to Chaos Daemons. 

But lists with either 3 teleporting/scouting Dreadknights, 1-3 amazingly accurate S8 rifleman dreads and exotic force-weapon users being served into assault by a stormraven with a 30' range bones pretty much everyine, I think, except some uber-power IG builds.


----------



## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Sephyr said:


> Maybe, but I don't play a lash list on my chaos droogies and I really don't want to be forced to!
> 
> Also, being a psyker (at least the kind without psychic defenses, like CSM) around GKs is usually a very poor idea.
> 
> ...


well put and agreed. but generals win armies in my experience not lists. and no Im not saying lists don't win it either but you should know what i mean..i hope lol. Its alot like DE were imho people were lik"OMG we're gonna die!!!" and I whooped em with my old DH 9 times outta 10.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> I SO want to turn one of these into Chaos Spawn with a Sorcerer


I think I remember seeing a rule, saying that they're immune to that...


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Champion Alaric said:


> well put and agreed. but generals win armies in my experience not lists. and no Im not saying lists don't win it either but you should know what i mean..i hope lol. Its alot like DE were imho people were lik"OMG we're gonna die!!!" and I whooped em with my old DH 9 times outta 10.


True, but good armies insulate bad generals from mistakes, to a degree. I know because it's happened to me.

A couple of weeks ago I goofed and disembarked by Berserkers out of their LR for a change. Except my mental measuring was wrong and they didn't have range. So they spent a turn being shot at by everything the SW rival could point at them (thankfully there was a building betweem them and his Long Fangs!). However, casualties were still light enough thanks to T4 and the ever-nifty 3+ armor save. I only lost three models. The remaining ones charged next turn into the enemy home objective, wiped out the enemy and I still won.

Had I done the same mistake with DE? He could have killed that unit with 1/4th of what he threw at my zerkers.


----------



## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

I have yet to see the new grey knights codex, but I would say force weapon it, and if that doesn't work just go to town with Kharn/Daemon prince and a squad of berserkers


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> Maybe, but I don't play a lash list on my chaos droogies and I really don't want to be forced to!
> 
> Also, being a psyker (at least the kind without psychic defenses, like CSM) around GKs is usually a very poor idea.
> 
> ...


That list could only exist in apoc, as it would require a lot of points/foc slots, so it isnt a threat for chaos, as you can then take things that make the matchup a matter of who plays better. 
Seriously people, this is just a new codex, there isn't anything to worry about, within two weeks of the codex being released, people will be whining about how the codex id underpowered.


----------



## Acid Trip (May 2, 2011)

Same Rules for taking out a dreadknight would also apply to a GD so whats the big deal or carnifex in that matter
I would be more scared of a wraith lord...


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Acid Trip said:


> Same Rules for taking out a dreadknight would also apply to a GD so whats the big deal or carnifex in that matter
> I would be more scared of a wraith lord...


Dreadknights have a 2+/5+ save. That makes them a lot tougher to deal with, especially over non-inv save monstrous creatures.


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Dreadknights have a 2+/4+ save....


Isnt it 2+/5++ save?


----------



## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

MaidenManiac said:


> Isnt it 2+/5++ save?


Correct. Also, kill them like you kill any type of Terminator. With a Personal Teleporter you are in the 200pt range, so just try and get your points back against it. The way it is designed and moves (Jump Infantry) expect to lose a unit before killing it. In the end though, its very much a 1 for 1 trade (points wise).


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Woops sorry guys, typo there. Still, my comment applies. Unlike most Monstrous Creatures, high strength weaponry isn't going to take them out too quickly.


----------



## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

the guard have light bulbs, but enough flashes and things fall down, the eldar have flowers and everything falls down, chaos have enough variety in the codex to take these things down. The models look pretty, well sculpted, but a few meltas, plasma guns orlascannons and they go down. The nids look big and scary, but eventually they stop eating....although this might be because they broke a tooth on my berzerkers armour


----------

