# Ogres or Lizardmen?



## Freemer (Aug 3, 2011)

Hey guys, so I've been away from Fantasy for a long time (last time I played was in 6th edition) and have recently begun playing again. Some friends bought the island of blood set and I played with that. Now here comes my dilemma. Both my friends have started High Elves and Skaven because of that box and I am left without an army, after looking through the books and talking to some people I have decided it's either going to be Lizardmen or Ogres. What I would like to know is how are both armies? Are they easy to play/learn? And are they easy to build and paint? 
Any other help you could give me over this would be appreciated, thanks


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Both are good armies and both are relatively easy to paint. Ogre's being larger models are more forgiving detail wise to paint, and since their an elite army, will take less time too as you'll be painting less models. Also, with being larger models, you'll have far less fiddly bits to stick together. That said, Lizardmen can be painted pretty quickly too with their simple, almost two colour paint scheme, but you will be painting many more models with them. They too are pretty easy to build so you won't have any trouble with them.

Ogre's are pretty easy to learn, mostly they're point and smash, but have alot of nifty little tricks you can try with them. It can be difficult points wise to fit in characters for them in low points games, but if you get them into combat they are hard hitting. The same can be said for lizardmen, hard hitting and pretty forgiving for a beginer player. With a Slann leading though, you can dominate with magic as they're probably the best mages in the game.

In most ways, it boils down to how you want to play. Ogre's are a tough close combat army, but with the new book have some rather devistating shooting too, Plus mournfangs are the most destructive heavy cavalry in the game right now. However, in magic, their low iniative means they'll suffer against certain spells, but they've got access to a good range of augments to toughen them up. Lizardmen are tough in combat, and will slaughter in Magic. They have decent shooting and are a pretty good all rounder army.

Also, Ogre's even if you buy the big gribbles for them, are still one of, if not still the cheapest army cash wise to field. A battalion box, a character, and a special, and you've easily got 1000 points for £100.

If you can't tell, i'm an Ogre player, so maybe slightly biased towards them, but Lizardmen are a good choice too. If you don't want to paint alot, Ogre's. If you love magic, Lizardmen. If you want to squish most anything in combat, Ogres. If you want an army that can hold its own in any situation, Lizardmen. If you want something thats not going to cost much, Ogre's.


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## Freemer (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks for that, I think I am swinging more towards Ogres, however is their low initiative a big disadvantage? As i said before the main armies I will be playing against are High Elves and Skaven so can Ogres stand against those armies?


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Well... if you can get the charge off, you get your impact hits which take place before any other hits, which can help take out a few models. They may hit after both high elves and skaven in most cases, especially with High Elves 'always strikes first rule', but when they do hit they hit hard, and will take quite a few with them. Plus, being monsterous infantry, they get stomp attacks, which can take a few more out at the end too. 

Soo, low initiative isn't always a disadvantage for them. Just have to learn how to get around it. 

Ogre's are capable of beating both armies, I've witnessed it myself with my local gaming group.


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## MidnightKid333 (Feb 2, 2011)

I suggest Lizardmen. The Saurus warriors are so good, they're broken and the slaan mage priest shows no mercy with its magic abilities. Ogres look like fun aswell, since their models have such high toughness and multi-wounds, means you simply shrug off the hits and make it into combat with no problem.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think dinosaurs are cooler than Ogres so I say choose Lizardmen.


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## Saulot (May 25, 2011)

Lizardmen are a great choice for a beginner army. 

Being able to participate during all phases of the game and having varied troop types available to you means you can grasp the rules better and can be exposed to different strategies in each phase of the game. They are also very forgiving to mistakes because of their good toughness / armour plus leadership / cold-blooded and points cost (more minis to field). 

Plus of course, as Stephen_Newman said above, dinosaurs are way cooler than ogres.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

Jurassic Park the Army is too fun to pass up.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I go with Ogres as they're easier to paint up to a gaming standard quick. Leeezards are a more numerical unit army. But fun, naetheless.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

We have both armies at home. I would recommend both armies right now as two of the most flexible and competitive armies to play and both being fun to play with and against (other than maybe the Slann). It would not be close if it were a choice between the old Ogres book and Lizardmen.

Right now, Lizardmen are a top tier army because they have some of the best magic offense and defense in the game with the Slann, have multiple units worth playing and cover all aspects of the game. Beyond the Slann (probably the best single general/character in the game) you have relatively cheap skirmish units that can march and shoot (poisoned shooting with skinks and scouts and poison with chameleons), stout (but not undercosted) core infantry with saurus, a stubborn and tough special unit in Temple Guard, flexible monsters with stegadons (although cannons and pit of shades is a problem in 8th edition for these), a good lord character in the oldblood if properly equipped (my son runs an oldblood and a reduced cost slann at 2500 very effectively, went 4-1 at two recent Indy GTs), decent fightin heroes in Scar-Vets, a good hero caster in the skink priest (with lore of heavens being underrated), and one of the best rare choices in units of salamanders (march and flaming shooting can devastate horde infantry units even if well armoured). Kroxigors are modestly over-priced but can be very effective in the second rank of a mixed unit with skink troops with shields and javelins due to their speed (M6) and ability to give supporting attacks without being attacked. The army book is newer, so it is less likely to be rewritten in the near term, giving you an advantage in 8th edition. 

With the new army book, Ogres look to be top tier now. I saw results of a recent tournament of top US players in the Northeast and Ogres were consistently winning and went 5-0. By lowering the points costs for core ogres and ironguts and removing some of the restrictions in army construction, core units can now be better customized. Gnoblars can be used effectively as steadfast tar pit units or as small units with trappers to serve as cheap speed bumps and diverters to protect leadbelchers. They also lowered the cost of leadbelchers and made them more effective in shooting by giving them the ability to move and shoot and suffer no multi-shoot and move and shoot penalties. They made it such that sabrecats can be taken as cheap war machine hunters and interference/divertion models to redirect opposing units. Then they gave wizards normal magic rules and a decent lore in Maw and access to some of the common lores (death, beasts,...). Finally, they added a hard-hitting special cav unit in mournfang (D3 impact hits and S5 mounts mean that the mounts are almost worth the points cost without riders), substantially lowered the point cost of and made more flexible maneaters (+1S, +1 LD and +1 attack over ogres with options for heavy armour, ogre pistols and great weapons and the ability to choose two special rules like scouts, skirmish, poison, ITP, stubborn, and vanguard) and added new rare units in the ironblaster. The ironblaster's ability to move and shoot is a huge advantage for a cannon, the greater number of wounds and fighting ability of the model makes the ironblaster harder to kill with shooting or by being charged, and the cannon gets to roll twice for the bounce and choose the better bounce which substantially increases the reliability of the cannon (almost as good as the dwarf cannon with rune of forging in hitting a model 10 inches from the target point and better odds of hitting models 12 and and 14 inches behind the target point) and increases the number of things the cannon can hit on the bounce on average. Additionally, the ironblaster's ability to move and even charge as a chariot means that it can better avoid threats and serve a potent role in combat when the time comes or if the cannon is lost in a misfire. The firebelly castor is widely used now and the hellheart magic item is beign complained of (banned in one upcoming tourney). The only nerf was increasing the cost of the slaughtermaster and tyrant such that most are now just running the slaughtermaster as the only lord at 2500 points. Thus, Ogres now have better options and are more points efficient than before and, with the new 8th edition rules benefitting monstrous infantry, have advantages over other armies. Ogres, like lizardmen core, are vulnerable to initiative-based magic spells like pit of shades and purple sun and are vulnerable to heavy warmachines shooting (cannons and doom diver and a grudge thrower with boosted strength) and to certain shooting (lower armour saves and T4 means they can get shot up) with their relatively high cost per model. But now they at least have options for magic defense and are fast enough to limit the shooting and magic damage before getting into combat. The biggest advantage you have with Ogres is the assurance of buying and building an army that you know will likely be very competitive for a number of years with a new edition and new army book and yet has enough variation in choices to allow you to play different combinations and not get bored with the army. Also, you have fewer and bigger models which can make that army easier to build and paint, as well as to do some interesting conversions and themes. 

I'd suggest reading a lot on the Lustria web site that focuses on Lizardmen and the Ogres web site that focuses on Ogres and decide what style you would like to play. At least now with Ogres, you have a lot of viable options for good, fun, and competitive army builds. Also, the box bat. set is an excellent purchase option unless you do not plan to play ogres with ironfists (they are under-rated, run as a horde with ironfists they become very resilient with ogre magic and can be boosted by beasts or fire lores and hit hard on the charge with the impact hits and stomps).


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

The Ogre Stronghold Is the best all round Ogre site on the web. Good forums too with very active and helpful players. Great for lots of different ideas on how to use Ogre's too.


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## Freemer (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you all so much for the help, I like how both armies are really good. After buying and reading both army books today, both armies would suit me fine but I just prefer the models of Lizardmen so I think that will be what I start. I'm looking forward to starting them and will get a battalion box tomorrow.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

2 battalions and a slann is a great start for an army. Saurus and TG are great. The Cold Ones can be converted to salamanders (since the metal models were pulled) and the skinks are incredibly versatile.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Good choice. Recommended Base collection for standard army of 2400 to 2500 points to shoot for:

Characters:
1 Slann on Pal.
1 Oldblood on foot/can be second scar vet
1 Scar vet on Foot
1 skink priest on foot
Core:
30 min to 80 max saurus warriors (depends on running temple guard or not, if not running temple guard then consider 80 saurus)
20 min to 50 max skinks (consider whether javelins or blowpipes and if shields, running skinks in ranked units with javs and shields may be worthwhile and cheaper than skirmishers for certain functions of redirection and diversion and can be steadfast for one turn if charged by single characters or monsters in some instances)
Optional 3 Kroxigors if considering a skink and Krox unit (Skrox unit)

Special:
20 min to 40 Temple Guard (you will find at 2400 to 2500 points and above, that TG units need to be bigger to fully protect the Slann or else use the TG as saurus with HW and shield)
min 10 to 30 chameleon skinks (ability to scout and march and shoot is huge and reduce BS by -2 due to special rules)

Rare
4 to 6 salamanders (consider one unit of 2 or 3 and max of 2 units of 3 each) with extra skink handlers
Optional ancient stegadon (allow skink priest to sit on as engine of gods)


Other items to consider:
a unit of terradons (now out of favour but can be useful with drop rocks attacks and ability to fly and bait and flee)
a unit of up to 3 razordons (some prefer them to salamanders for stand and shoot and protection of flanks, but most feel "sallies" are better overall especially with massed infantry in play in 8th edition)
a second skink priest
a unit of cold one cav with a mounted scar vet or oldblood (generally too expensive for what they do but playable, especially in friendly games)
a second ancient stegadon (if a lot of terrain or special rules or fewer war machines, then two stegs, both EOTG or one EOTG and the other just ancient, still is and was a decent strategy, especially at 3000+ points)


GW has so over-priced Temple Guard that the battalian box is almost worthwhile just for the TG and saurus and skinks but you are often better off getting discounts on the regiment boxes if you do not intend to run cold ones. 
I never thought of converting the cold ones into salamanders. I still prefer the sallies if one can afford them and want to eventually play in tourneys where painting and stuff if judged.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

What I find difficult with Lizardmen is I can never picture them actually facing other armies, while Ogres will fight anything and everything.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

Lizzys are easy. A prophecy said to attack them, they target army is not acting according the will of the Old Ones, etc.


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## Freemer (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks olderplayer that has really helped me narrow down what to take in my army. I am planning on using everything from the battalion box and will definatley get a slann at some point. The games we are playing will start off small at 1000 points then as we get used to our armies we can build from there.


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## Raizer Sabre (Nov 8, 2010)

definately get yourself more saurus, skinks and tg too. i myself am in need of more skinks as the 12 i have from the battalion alone aren't always enough. saurus are great in blocks of 20 minimum and as for your slann, the recommended lores to go for are life or light. but definately try and work up to 1500 points so you can give your slann focus of mystery, becalming cogitation and focussed rumination, all of which are very helpful indeed


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Good point. Because of the Slann, LM armies are most competitive at and above 2000 points but playing at lower point totals will force you to learn how to use the skink skirmishers, sallies, and core infantry blocks better. At 1000 points, you can run a decent oldblood as a general (can be fit in under the lord 25% limit and provide a really tough fighting general to lead your saurus unit), a scar vet or skink chief (runs around with skirmishers to avoid combat and provide leadership re-rolls as needed) BSB, and one or two skink priests. If you run two skink priests in order to more fully use the winds of magic rolls and give you some magic defense, then consider one as a level 1 and one as a level 2 with plaque of tepok and then add a cheap skink chief as the bsb or no BSB. The skink skirmishers can march and shoot and use their free reform abilities and movement to get around and hide and shoot or avoid combat as needed. You might simply run one lvl 2 skink priest with the plague so that it has three spells to cast. Without the Slann, Temple guard do not make a lot of sense, so consider just using them to fill out the saurus units. 

It is not hard with some epoxy puddy (what they call green stuff at GW but can be bought cheaper in hardware and hobby stores) and sprue bits and creativity to convert skinks into a skink chief BSB (that can serve as a standard bearer when you begin to play larger battles) and priests and convert saurus or temple guard models into scar vets or an old blood. You will probably want to get at least a regiment box of skinks and a regiment box of saurus to complement what you already have. Convert the cold ones into proxy salamanders and use some skinks as skink handlers for the sallies. Then you can run one decent unit of saurus core, some skink skirmisher units to hide your skink priests and BSB and provide poisoned shooting at really tough stuff, and a unit of at least two sallies for your rare unit slot. You can play the cold ones in the batt. box, as they will run over some stuff at 1000 points but you will find the stupidity an issue and the need for leadership/BSB to deal with stupidity will use up too many points to make the army worth playing. 

An oldblood with armour of destiny, a shield and crown of command, biting blade and luck stone gets a (1+ AS and 4+ ward save and can re-roll one failed armour save) and will be stubborn, which is tough to deal with if the BSB remains in range and with cold blooded (roll three dice for the LD test and choose the two lowest). Other set-ups (if not expecting killing blow attacks or greater than S6 attacks) include light armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone and crown of command and possibly a magic weapon (great weapon would negate the shield) for a 1+ armour save that is re-rollable and a 6+ ward save in hth combat. Most 1000 point armies cannot field a fighting general to match up with such a character. The reason for crown of command is to allow the old blood to charge out by itself and take on something the rest of your army can't beat and allow your saurus unit to stand and fight (they can lose combat due to lower weapon skill and initiative, especially if the old blood is in a challenge against something tough to kill).


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Oldblood on a Carny. Dinosaur riding a dinosaur leading dinosaurs into combat? Pure awesome.


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## MidnightKid333 (Feb 2, 2011)

Just thought I'd throw this out there, but my lizardmen army consists of a skink priest with an engine of the gods, 126 skink skirmishers, 13 saurus warriors, a saurus scar-veteran and 3 Salamanders. 

I try to have fun with my lizardmen.


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