# Are Deathco Relevant in the new BA list?



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The death company is synonymous with Blood Angels...in some editions it was a game breaking nightmare, in others a ball and chain attached to the list.

Now they seem to have become...is 'blandiose' a word? Sort of grandiosely bland?

They're cheaper at base than they once were, but their jump packs are insanely expensive. They no longer rend, but they picked up relentless. They were given a sweet upgrade character in the form of lemmy, but you'll never see him because of the price of fielding JP deathco. They were given the chance to upgrade their weapons, but again cost becomes an issue. They were made troops but cannot score (and unlike when they were 'elites' in the past, they burn a slot now).Most importantly though, they now always rage, even in the presence of a chaplain.

Meanwhile, the new Sanguinary Priests (who are cheap ICs and can be bought three to an elides slot) give out furious charge and feel no pain (the two big things DC have ging for them) too every friendly within 6"

So in a list where your whole army can become, effectively, a controlled DC, do you think the deathco will remain a part of most blood angel lists?

Things DC has going for it over normal troops in range of an SP: Relentless, +1A, +1WS, special melee options, 30 man max size, only +4 points per model over tacticals, allow access to DC dreads.

Things they have against them: Rage, 17 points per model (with JPs) over assault squads, can't score


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## Jono (Feb 2, 2010)

I wont take them

I also wont be taking Honor guards, seeing as Sang guards do it all, better, for about the same amount. 

Probably won't be taking much in the book to be honest. Just Assault marines with a JP priest, 300 points of FNP furious charging goodness. Throw in sang guard within 12" and sanginator within 6" and you have 10 man assault squad rolling 50 str 5 attacks on the charge. that sounds like fun ... if its effect, I dunno, but I dont care, it looks like fun


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I originally planned to take them on merit. Just for being DC.

However, if you look at the nooks and crannies, a SP led assault squad lives up to what a DC is. Just it's cheaper and you can keep a leash on them.

Granted, they take the fight to KBs who have a WS supierority over our marines, but if Vanilla marines can cope, so can blood.

It's also difficult to find a good role for them that another unit can't do better. Yes, they have relentless and bolters...meaning good advancing firepower. But would you ever run these guys on foot with no transport?
Yes, they can cause damage up close, but so can the SanGuard, who, in the general picture, are better, especially with a SG and Dante.

Astaroth is better protected by assault marines, who can join him on his kamikaze style of attack and you wont feel the points drop when you marines die on the way.

You can buy 1.5 DC for the cost of a thunder hammer, which is only 5 points more than the fist, so, upgraded to anti MC/armour CC costs a small gold mine. Something that a cheapo assault sergeant with fist can accomplish for less.

It's a sad decision, but DC will play no part in my 'tuned' list.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Orochi said:


> Yes, they have relentless and bolters...meaning good advancing firepower. But would you ever run these guys on foot with no transport?


Doesn't Rage mean that units can't shoot? Or do DC have a special version of it?


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

You can't shoot if it'd prevent you from assaulting. Or maybe the priest rules just specifically barred it. :shrug:

With relentless making you immune to the whole "shoot rapid-fire weapons prevents you from assaulting" thang it's a bit of a nonissue.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

So basically DC are a unit that must always move and assault at the nearest enemy? This sounds like an easy unit to manipulate, especially if you have a Land Raider or Monolith to keep them permanently occupied.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

I've only skimmed the 'dex, but having DC does open up the option of having Troops Dreadnoughts. I would have to look again, but it never states that the DC Dreads cannot score, so the inability to score by the DC may be counterbalanced by scoring Dreads. Although these Dreads are crazy, but in a better way than Chaos.

For those of you who have had more time with the codex, is the scoring Dreads valid under the codex?


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

no rulebook states under scoring units that they cannot be vehicles


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

DC Dreads can't score because vehicles can't score. Very simple, and does not need to be spelled out in the codex.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It does, however, require people to actually read the rulebook... so expect debates about it for the next few months.

I think that they designed Death Company first, and then made Priests later on in the design cycle, and just didn't notice that the priests made all your other units DC, but better. Um. The only thing I can see is a unit of 5 with Jump packs and a Fist, just so you can take a DC dread without eating an Elites choice.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks for the thinly-veiled ad hominem attack on my ability to read the rules guys, appreciate it.

If I purchase 5 DC, then I can buy a Dread (vehicle) for a Troops slot
If I buy a Dread (vehicle) in this manner, then it scores
I purchase 5 DC
I have a scoring Dread (vehicle)
A Dreadnought is a vehicle
If it is a vehicle, then it cannot score - p90, brb

Look look! A contradiction! It is invalid, and cannot possibly happen!

To continue the purpose of this thread, if the Death Company with Jump Packs are really 17 points a model, why wouldn't you take them en masse? I pay 21 per Zerker, and I couldn't care less if the DC score or not, these guys will be my hammer. Flying, FnP, cheap Zerkers? Please!


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

he said 17 points ABOVE regular assault marines


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Ishamael said:


> To continue the purpose of this thread, if the Death Company with Jump Packs are really 17 points a model, why wouldn't you take them en masse?


Yeah, Death Company with packs ring in at only a few points less than a vanilla Marine Terminator without upgrades, so a sizable unit of them ain't cheap.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Personally, I don't see the gigantic unit as a positive for them, I don't see it as much of anything for them beyond a waste really. I mean take 30 death company, before upgrades of any kind you just ate up more than 500pts on a non scoring unit. It will be able to butcher just about anything it touches, but thats still a lot of points.


Though I do plan on trying a unit of them in my third company list as it moves up in its point totals, either in the 1250 or 1500 range. When fielding them, its not only a matter of finding a spot for them in your army, as the priest can make their buffs less useful when he gives a few of them to others. Personally, I like the idea of of six with a pair of fists in a razorback or rhino. Overall its cheap, in the area of 195 or 200 transport pending, but packs a fair punch.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ishamael said:


> If I purchase 5 DC, then I can buy a Dread (vehicle) for a Troops slot
> If I buy a Dread (vehicle) in this manner, then it scores


No, it doesn't.



> I purchase 5 DC
> I have a scoring Dread (vehicle)


No, you don't.



> A Dreadnought is a vehicle
> If it is a vehicle, then it cannot score - p90, brb
> 
> Look look! A contradiction! It is invalid, and cannot possibly happen!


No, it's not. It's not a contradction, it's an explicitly stated exception to the rule.



p90 said:


> An army’s scoring units are all the units that come from
> its Troops allowance. The presence of other units may
> deny an objective to the enemy, but only Troops can
> control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a
> ...


No contradiction, no implication that DC dreads should score.



> To continue the purpose of this thread, if the Death Company with Jump Packs are really 17 points a model, why wouldn't you take them en masse? I pay 21 per Zerker, and I couldn't care less if the DC score or not, these guys will be my hammer. Flying, FnP, cheap Zerkers? Please!


You misread me. They're 17points *over* the cost of an assault marine. Basically, they cost twice as much.

Anyway, moving along: While I don;t see much room for DC anymore, I do think Honour Guard have their place.

First off, they can take meltaguns and plasma guns en masse
Secondly, they come with a free SP (or at least the grail)
Thirdly, they're (a tiny bit) cheaper, way cheaper without packs (but why bother?)

Don't think of the HG as an elite assault squad, think of them as a run and gun DSing strike force.

Compared to a handfull of sternguard with combis and a pod, 5 JPing HG are way cheaper, more effective, and able to quickly redeploy and hit multiple targets...AND they have FNP and FC

Take a 4 plasgun HG unit, drop in and melt a whole squad of terminators into slag (FNPing the rare gets hot wound to boot)
Take a 4 Melta HG unit, drop in and blow the holy fuck out of a tank (throw in a fist too, just in case). use FNP to survive any return fire then jet over to the next juicy target.

HG have their place, even compared to the nippleguard.

That said, I think I might be converting my deathco to HG. Pretend the mini-SP is a chappy and that they;re old-fashioned controllable DC and just pretend ;-)


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Liking to think outside the square for just a moment.... going back to Gal's first post.

As you state they are relentless, they have +1ws and +1A and are going to cost me 4 points more than a tactical marine.

Ask most SM players hey dude... these are my home brew rules, can I have relentless, +1ws ad +1A and they take a tactical slot, but to compensate they get rage and they can't score.

I think 90% of opponents will say no bloody way.... thankyou very much, thats way overpowered dude.

Remember I am taking it out of context, and I am aware of the comparisons everyone is making, but is it a fair comparison.

I think you have to consider what your looking at and looking for and why. Have we all become so use to the mechanized nature of 5th, that even a semi decent assualt unit is dismissed out of hand, as the standard assualt marines have been relegated like my own to the shelf at the back, never to see the light of day?

We have all become use to assualt units that are either super power nids, or termies with hammers rushing out of land raiders.... But take a step back and look at what your getting for the points, without the JP. Is it because we think, there is no room left for an assualt force that moves across the board anymore? unless its a horde? 

Terrain and cover saves have become so silly in this edition, its almost as if I was standing behind that sheet of glass I get a 5+! cover save! However lets consider the fact that as a unit, this unit if used smartly, and tactically... yes that means driving around in rhino's or chimera's and saying MELTA.... has become rather tactically bland if effective... is it possible to use this unit and actually use it as it could be with some smart thinking, a hard hitting relentless force of marines, that will with rage, cut into anything short of a Swarmlord and cut it a new one? With the rules for reserves, DS, and so many missions where you can now start with different abilties, its been a month since release of battle missions... and I can see the dawn of most play even tournament play devolving into ok.... hell its a random dice roll mission and I have to be prepared for 66 of the buggers... They may find a use in a force yet.

I don't fight anyones math here, and as Gal rightly points out their are cheaper options out there which will do similiar things. What suprizes me, is that we are collectively just comparing blood angels to blood angels, instead of saying.... I am taking a 10 man death company... I wonder what happens if I charge that group of 10 ork nobs? What happens then? What happens against 10 genestealers? against 20 hormies or even 40 IG being led by a commissar? 

Nice discussion as always guys!

Alexi.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

if its in the codex of course its relevant, why would it be there otherwise.

I'd certainly take some, 10 with bolters and jump packs should be fun, and thats all that really matters, who cares if there are units that are cheaper and can do better, who cares if its not the most competitive choice available, who cares if its costs allot of points, and seriously who really cares about rage (the one negative ability thats pretty pointless and has no effect as long as your not a muppet and spam assault squads and actually use a list capable of dealing with distraction units). 

plus its the first time in years GW has released SM models that are interesting.

I will use them happily, and listening to all the local players round my area so will all of them, thats including the overly competitive ones.


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Took a bit of a break from the forums, not from the hobby though. I have a weird attention span when it comes to lurking forums. I'm only capable of lurking one or two forums at a time and recently started up my own (unrelated to 40k). I was never enough of a presence before so I'm sure I wasn't missed.

I've been looking forward to the BA 'dex for sometime. I know many of us speculated back around the time we heard Space Hulk was being (re)released that a new 'dex wouldn't be far off. Games Day Spain 2009 helped fuel our resolve that new BA 'dex was on the horizon. I, myself, won a bet amongst friends as for when the BA 'dex would be released. I was worried they'd castrate the army I've loved since reading the angels of death 'dex back in the day (as a pre-teen) when deciding which army I'd play against my friend and his older brothers. I was more than a little disappointed when I caught a peak at the new codex and saw what they did to the DC. The lack of rending doesn't bother me since, hey, they didn't always have it - I was kinda happy to see PWs become accessible to them again (even though they're a bit expensive). Them not being compulsory I had mixed feelings. The thought of lists just not having them from now on is a little offensive; on the other hand you'll see more variance in BA lists though. I find relentless superfluous for the most part - I didn't catch the equipment options in full (a lot of non-BA players came outta the woodwork to chase the power creep, and/or hope that they'd be the new FOTM army to play that kept me from looking at my FLGS's copy of the 'dex for more than a brief skimming) but if they had a few heavy weapon options, even a ML I'd feel better about it. I was rather enraged at the JP cost for them though. I took one look at it and said, "yep, not going to be buying those anymore."

I have a special place in my heart for the DC and will probably run them anyway. Also I'd like to run a DC dreadnought so I'll probably end up taking the 5 DC marines. I have a personal apprehension to units of 5, so they'll end up a unit of ten or larger than that (once I get to hammer out point costs). As much as I hate it, I won't be putting JPs on them. (Which basically feels dirty since my current modeled DC have JPs and always have).

The other 'at glance' assessment I made (in addition to my JP statement above) was to make them viable you'll be needing a transport. I'm more than happy with the new BA Rhino rule (anything with the Rhino chassis Rule I should say), pay for fast => win. I'm not sure about other BA faithful but I have notoriously bad rolls for my transports and have a history of statistically improbable numbers of stalls per game. Last game I had 8/10 stalls... I was basically ready to vomit rage.

Overall I feel positive about our new Codex... we'll see how the DC operate in the new list. Like anything I think we need to see how the list operates and interacts with each other overall rather than focus in on one unit and immediately disregard it. For instance, how good is a DC Dreadnought in the army vs. our spiffy librarian dreadnoughts? Is it worth buying 5 (or 10) minimally tooled out DC? I really do think there is merit to them if you buy a transport instead of JPs though. Maybe GW REALLY wanted us to put both them and that DC dread in the new skimmer (It can hold both a Dreadnought AND some infantry!!!) we got...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The DC dread is not really much better than the Furioso. It has a point less front AV, a point less WS, but I think one more attack. It has similar options (no harpoon, I think), but ignores shaken and stunned and has Rage...kind of a mixed bag.


Another uncontrollable raging non-scoring unit eating up your troop slots.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Death company dreds do have the grapple as an option in addition to their extra attack and ability to ignore shaken/stunned.

I was thinking about using one of them, but after realizing that the Furioso and death company dreds cost the same with the loadout I intended, I think I'll be using that elite slot instead. Who knows though, maybe that extra attack and ability to ignore shaken/stunned will prove to be better than the additional weapon skill and front armour?


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Don't forget the potential for open ended attacks too with the blood talons or whatever...

The DC dred is beside the point I was attempting to make. I look at the new DC as rather comparable to Zerkers. A bit cheaper for an extra rule and the annoyance of the Rage rule. They can't capture which is annoying but I'd rather devote a troop slot that I wasn't going to use than an elite slot I would to them. The point I was really trying to make though: is keep them cheap, toss 'em in a transport and see how they play out. The transport will control them and add some resilience to them while keeping comparable speed (though not necessarily mobility).


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

furiosos get blood talons too though, so again, not much advantage for one over the other.

Anyhow, I do agree that cheap transported DC make the most sense for implementing them, but is that really a much better option than having a flying assault squad with a SP, or a transported assault squad for cheaper?


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

I suppose that's not something we can answer just yet. I look forward to trying it out though. I actually agree when it gets down to it. I'm not too happy with the way the DC were implemented in our new codex. I guess I'm trying to see the glass half full and try to discern what new role they may fill. Our list has opened up a great deal in terms of potential builds. Having another unit fill the DC's job is part of that flexibility, though it seems at the expense of the DC losing their former function. You still have the higher WS and additional attack with the DC over a Sang'd Assault Squad... that's worth noting. 

When it gets right down to it I really don't get the presence of relentless in the DC over a more applicable rule (CA perhaps?) or at least an option to make them not crazy. Heck if they weren't raging I'd consider handing them bolters and telling them to "have fun" but that just... isn't what the DC should be. Their (the DC's) role certainly has changed in the new 'dex and other units have stepped into the big shoes they left behind from previous editions. I can't imagine them being entirely superfluous though or little more than a throwback that GW left in to keep us from nerd-raging that the DC disappeared.


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

I intend to play my first game with DC with a 12man drop pod armed with boltguns/ 2x fists (or a fist and a hammer) dropped right up in my ork opponents backfield. Hopefully they make a mess of his deployment zone and draw the attentions of his nasty deathrollas and uber-nobz while the rest of my BA move in for the kill.

If that is a shit-bomb I'll go with 10man in a rhino for the next game.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Amra_the_lion said:


> I intend to play my first game with DC with a 12man drop pod armed with boltguns/ 2x fists (or a fist and a hammer) dropped right up in my ork opponents backfield.


Remember that Blood Angel Drop Pods can only carry 10 models, just like the Space Wolf ones.


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

Good to know
well then thats 2 DC suicide men I wont have to pay points on, and no wasted extra men if the rhino is the better choice. I don't have the book till tomorrow when the GW shipment gets in.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

Galahad, I used the wrong terms in the post I made over those rules. That sequence is actually invalid, even though my first instinct was to say contradiction, as contradictions happen when one tests it for validity after the sequence is complete. It can't go anywhere, and the entire statement is false. I hope you weren't taking is as an idiot attempt to argue for scoring Dreads when the book says it can't.

In regards to Troops slots, depending on your army and build, couldn't one just set three slots aside for scoring units, one for a DC squad, then maybe one for a Dread, and be fine with that? I don't have the points in front of me, but I would enjoy using a small DC squad with a fist to be a real annoyance in a fast Rhino, or I'm wrong in thinking of using them like Zerks.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

I dont care if they arent mathamitcly that great a unit compared to other BA units. I dont care if they can be manipulated.

I love the fluff for them, i love the whole concept, thats why when i go down to Birmingham in a week or so and start my Death Company orientated army im buying a few Death Company models. I think there awesome and hoesntly im not much for the Sang Guard or any standard Blood Angels, regarding the models, the unit options or the points.

The game for me is about fun, not winning, and if i have to sacrifice a mathamaticly correct army, that has a high chance of winning for an army that i get alot of fun out of regard fluff and models i will do =.

And if anything if Death Company do turn out the be the least best choice in the army compared to Sangs then ill just try my damned hardest to get as good with Death Company as i can.

So yeah Death Company will have a place in my army especialy over Sangs


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

SpacedGhost said:


> Maybe GW REALLY wanted us to put both them and that DC dread in the new skimmer (It can hold both a Dreadnought AND some infantry!!!) we got...


I was thinking of that being a way to implement them. It would be expense, but would give you a great reason to make the new Stormraven decked out in DC icons and such :mrgreen:

Anyway, as a non-BA player from the outside looking in and only just scanning through the codex so far at my local hobby shop, I've found that to me the only reason why I would take DC is to gain a DC Dread. The BA Dreads themselves is one of my favorite things about the new dex so far, also the rhino chassis being fast moving as well. Now whether or not it could be worth having 10 DCs with the ability to take 2 DC Dreads seems kind of much for me within the confines of a 1500 - 2000 pt list, still yet to be determined. 

Overall I do think the new dex will definitely cause the DC to be taken way less than they were before, being that now they do take up a troop slot in FOC, but arent scoring and the higher cost in points to either control them as much as possible while keeping them safe (transports) or get them to where they wanna go faster without caring too much about controlling them (jump packs).


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

You can always paint one of yoru assault squads black, pretend they;re a deathco, then inform your opponent in no uncertain terms that they are really just an assault squad with an SP


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I really wanted to wait until I had seen the codex before commenting anymore on the new BAs and now that I have read it all, I'm willing to make a guess on DC. 

It seems to me that the best way to run a DC squad now will be the minimum size of 3 models with jump packs and one thunder hammer (or PF, your choice). This comes out 5points over a 5 man RAS with thunder hammer (or PF). So for 5 points more you lose 2 models and gain furious charge, fearless, rage, relentless, feel no pain, and extra WS and Attack on the models you do have. Bolters or bolt pistols as you see fit. My guess is bolter on the hammer, pistols on the other two.

I see this small squad working for two reasons...one its small enough to not represent a huge target for your opponent and is roughly as survivable as the same costed RAS. Two, it can still put out the hurt on just about anything it runs into for a fairly small number of points.

I can see the fun in a ten man squad in a rhino or landraider too, but I'd stay away from too many special weapons. Maybe a fist or two and thats it. Shame you don't get the 35 point transport discount like a RAS though.


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## beeny13 (Mar 30, 2008)

i see two ways to take them-rhino or pod
and might as well throw in a chaplain, i'm not that sure that he is worth the points, but the death company was designed with him in mind.
a drop pod with 9 and a chappie. i see 2 infernuses, 2 power weapons, a fist as a good way to arm them. the whole thing comes out to 400 which is a hell of a lot. only 300 without chappie, but that seems like you are missing out on a lot. use the pistols to pop a vehicle first turn, then wreak havoc in the opponents's deployment zone. also i would take a dc dread in a pod.
as long as they have the 1/2 first turn rule i would want to choose which one has a better chance of surviving.

however every time i look at the points cost i start comparing them to other choices, especially since at 400 points you are just shy of spending 530 and getting a land raider crusader with assault terminators and a priest.


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