# Command Squad - What have I done wrong?



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey,

My SM Command Squad is underperforming. Don't know why, but it's not doing so well. I've tried to gear it up to be an anti-TEq squad, here it is:

Command Squad
Company Champion
Company Standard
Power Weapon
Storm Shield
Lightning Claw

with attached

Captain
Relic Blade
Meltabombs
Plasma Pistol

In a 

Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

Now, the Captain does nicely, chopping up plenty of Terminators (1-2 a turn), but the Command Squad is somewhat lacklustre. Is this because I'm pitting them against the wrong units? Should they be killing basic infantry instead where I can make use of FnP? Or have I got the wrong equipment? Or is it just bad dice? I thought of having two more Storm Shields and throwing in another Power Weapon, but I don't know whether that'll help. Advice?

I have 5 unbuilt Veterans models, with a couple of Power Weapons, three Power Fists, a Combi-Melta, all three Special weapons, two or three Plasma Pistols, loads of spare Melta Bombs, and a Watcher in the Dark that I could feasibly use as a squad-encompassing-minus-Apothecary-for-some-reason Storm Shield (My reasoning is that the Lion Helm is projecting the force field like it does in Codex: Dark Angels). So, any ammendments that could be made using those models would be appreciated.

Midnight


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

So to confirm you're using your Command Squad to tackle more elite targets, right?

If so, that's probably what's going wrong. Command Squads can take a lot of fancy gear but don't have enough models to absorb many casualties, so when you fight for example Terminators they're going to die very quickly since Feel No Pain doesn't help them against things like power fists. If you want to tackle these sorts of targets I'd suggest taking at least two models with storm shields (give them to models that are already unable to get an additional attack for having two weapons - like the model with the lightning claw). Also, having at least one model with a power fist or similar can be really helpful to dealing with things like Monstrous Creatures that the Captain can't take down by himself.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Katie..I am missing something about feel no pain? I thought it let you take failed saves why wouldn't it help against terminators?

Thanks,
Doc


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

docgeo said:


> Katie..I am missing something about feel no pain? I thought it let you take failed saves why wouldn't it help against terminators?
> 
> Thanks,
> Doc


Feel No Pain doesn't work against attacks that ignore armor saves and the only kinds of weapons that Terminators carry are the ones that ignore armor saves... thus, Feel No Pain is worthless against Terminators in close combat.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Feel No Pain doesn't work against attacks that ignore armor saves and the only kinds of weapons that Terminators carry are the ones that ignore armor saves... thus, Feel No Pain is worthless against Terminators in close combat.


Just what she said. Power weapons, thunder hammers, lightning claws, etc--all ignore FnP.

Just ask my Plague Marines how they feel about Grey Knights...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the swift and excellent replies. So, should I use them to pick off shooty units? Like Havocs (Ha, like people use them), Devastators, Lootas, Obliterators etc. or deal with stuff like Storm Troopers, Chaos Marines and Tyranid Warriors? I'm attracted towards a power fist, although striking last is inconvenient the high strength would be good for insta-gibbing T4, multi-wound enemies (I'm thinking Nobz and Tyranid Warriors). So, that gives me:

Command Squad
Champion
Standard
Power Weapon
Lightning Claw
Power Fist
3 Storm Shields.

Clocks in at 245pts, more expensive than a 6 Assault Terminators with Hammers and Shields, which would have better armour, more invulnerable saves, more wounds, the I1/Crew Shaken Thunder Hammer trick and mostly higher strength. However, they have no FnP, can't run units down, all of them always strike last or simulataneously, they don't have the WS5 Champion, they don't give the Morale boost, and they can't get into most transports. Fair trade off, I guess.

Do you think that I'd be allowed to use a Watcher in the Dark to represent Storm Shields? In my area the WYSIWYG rules are quite... flexible, and I think I have a fair justification for it, but better to err on the side of caution.

Midnight


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> Clocks in at 245pts, more expensive than a 6 Assault Terminators with Hammers and Shields, which would have better armour, more invulnerable saves, more wounds, the I1/Crew Shaken Thunder Hammer trick and mostly higher strength. However, they have no FnP, can't run units down, all of them always strike last or simulataneously, they don't have the WS5 Champion, they don't give the Morale boost, and they can't get into most transports. Fair trade off, I guess.


Now that I really take the time to look over the unit (I went too fast last time, my apologies) I think you need to dump off a little bit of the extra wargear. I think the standard should probably go (though I doubt it'll cost you any games should you decide to keep it). I only say this because the unit is getting very expensive which may prove to be a problem for the rest of your army. If you want to keep it I won't blame you. I really love the Standard Bearer for my Honor Guard too. :grin:



> Do you think that I'd be allowed to use a Watcher in the Dark to represent Storm Shields? In my area the WYSIWYG rules are quite... flexible, and I think I have a fair justification for it, but better to err on the side of caution.
> 
> Midnight


Personally I wouldn't mind and if your group is as flexible as you say then I doubt they will either. The only thing I'd suggest is that you attempt to make sure that the model who is carrying the storm shield rules-wise isn't carrying two weapons (since the shield counts as a weapon and all, it may confuse some people).


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ive found that if you want a CC command squad with a captain (with the wargear youve mentioned - id change the plasma pistol for artificer armor, and if he doesnt have a SS he needs one) is that you need 1 model with dual LCs (reroll wounds at I4) a thunder hammer (to reduce their I to one and double toughs T4 units) and lastly a PF. the final member can be changed to do whatever you want - i usually take a melta gun.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Feel No Pain doesn't work against attacks that ignore armor saves and the only kinds of weapons that Terminators carry are the ones that ignore armor saves... thus, Feel No Pain is worthless against Terminators in close combat.


I'm an idiot...thanks! It was 2AM where I am stationed in Iraq and my brain was on autopilot....lol

thanks,
Doc


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I would use command squads either as a cheap wound-soaker for my captain + FnP, or give them a dedicated role. The one role they can't be effectively dedicated is to counter elite assault units, or MCs. They are best at heavy infantry killing, and clearing troops off objectives. For this role I use:
company champion
2 x power sword
meltagun
power fist
maybe throw some combat shields in there

I don't find the banner worth it as SMs rarely fail morale checks. Just stay away from low AP firepower as they don't do that well, or things like Paladin deathstar.

In all honesty (as you play DA), I would use vets over a command squad, as they're more versatile and you can have 10, unless you're looking for light infantry duties, where you want the FnP.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> In all honesty (as you play DA), I would use vets over a command squad, as they're more versatile and you can have 10, unless you're looking for light infantry duties, where you want the FnP.


I use the SM Dex, more units and better wargear.

For models, I have:
Veteran with PW and SS
Banner (I love the banner, it's awesome but I do need to paint a design on it)
Apothecary
Veteran with Lightning Claw/Bolt Pistol (They have Bolt Pistols standard and don't lose them when they take a SS so that configuration's ok)
Champion

With 5 unbuilt vets with various weapons (I have four spare power fists! I only have one in my 1250pt army). I've cut down the squad as much as I really want to, just working on tactics alone now. So, the 245pt 3+/3++/4+ FnP anti-MEq squad is go! I plan to use them as counter-attackers, holding the line between my two Tactical Squads (Transports on standby to whisk them away just in case) to make full use of the banner, and then charge anyone that gets too close.

Midnight

EDIT:
Got all the models for my 245pt Death-to-the-Armour-Saves unit done, and they end up like this:

Apothecary
Standard Bearer with Power Fist and Storm Shield (He costs a fuckload! Last one to die excepting Apothecary if I get to allocate wounds onto who I want)
Veteran with Power Weapon and Storm Shield
Veteran with Lightning Claw and Storm Shield
Champion

So, a dude costing 35 (Assuming Apothecary is a 15pt upgrade), a dude costing 60pts (Standard Bearer, he's 1.5 times more expensive than a Terminator), two dudes costing 50pts each, and one dude costing 45 (Champion, weirdly). So, if I get to allocate wounds I take a wound on the Captain first, and then a wound on the PW/SS guy, then LC/SS guy, then Champion, then Banner, then Apothecary. Excess wounds go on Captain, PW and LC.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> My SM Command Squad is underperforming. Don't know why, but it's not doing so well. I've tried to gear it up to be an anti-TEq squad, here it is:
> 
> Command Squad
> Company Champion
> ...


What you are doing wrong is taking a command squad in a foot-CC role. The comparison to do is this

6x TH/SS terminator = 240pts

Your squad = ~360pts + 75pts for the ride.

Your squad will usually be out-fought by the six terminators (don't argue, take it to mathammer), but more to the point I could have

10x TH/SS terminators at that price, with 35pts over.

Your squad will not beat 10xTH/SS terminators, or be in any way be meaningfully better than them in CC. Your squad does have a ride, but at the same points you are spending those ten terminators can DS on, or drop four men and get a chimera plus five extra troops, or take a DP, or drop two men and take a librarian in terminator armour with null zone and gate of infinity, or drop four men and get a Crusader with MM by spending just 65pts extra. Is a Crusader with MM for 65pts better than a laserback? Why yes, yes it is.

Solution. Take TH/SS terminators.

Command squad are for four things. When you want good CC on bikes, when your elite FOC slots are full, when you want plasmaguns, or when you want to max out your FOC slots in an MSU list by taking the squad with no bling and a laserback (a decent deal, because for just 25pts more than a 5-man tax you gain FNP and all vets, can even be worth adding the CC in this setup).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

vonklaude said:


> What you are doing wrong is taking a command squad in a foot-CC role. The comparison to do is this
> 
> 6x TH/SS terminator = 240pts
> 
> ...


Comments in Green. As to your point of 10 TH/SS Terminators will always beat a Command Squad, think again. I need to do one more casualty then you for you to make a LD test. If you fail Leadership, I should run you down no problem.

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Vonklaude, midnight is asking for constructive criticism about the setup of his command squad, not just telling him to screw it and get a different unit which he clearly doesn't want to do, so can you please not be a dick about it....

Anyway, on foot, the command squad shouldn't be used for targeting CC elites like termies. Try and give them a specific role to fulfil at not too high a cost, but with the ability to fend off unwanted attention. E.g. :

banner w/ power weapon
apothecary w/ power weapon
melta
melta
power fist and storm shield.
Around 205 I believe, with a razor and can be used for anti-armour roles, but with the attacks to fend off grunts, and high strength attacks to fend off walkers and MCs. 

Just try not to get sidetracked by targeting units which your command squad isn't designed to deal with. Leave enemy elites to be dealt with by firepower and termies, while the command can take out expensive high value units or annihilate enemy troops so he can't capture objectives. 

Just don't let them get isolated - target saturation!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the criticism Ezekiel. My decided loadout is

Command Squad
Champion
Standard
Power Weapon
Lightning Claw
Power Fist
3 Storm Shields.

Comes in at 245pts. 4 models with Invulnerables (The Company Champion makes an ungodly amount of 6+ Combat Shield saves) and FnP, only one model has no power weapon. Aims to kill MEq equivalents (So, that's Troops in other Power Armoured armies or Elites in IG/Xenos armies, generally.)

It's not that I don't want TH/SS Terminators, I just think that sending them into squads of MEqs puts them at needless risk and wastes the Hammers and Shields. They're also worse against Orks/Tyranids/Guard grunts due to the amount of attacks made against them before they get to attack. This is my unit to solve that dilemma (As Vanguard Veterans are crap).

Midnight


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## Grinnsira (Jan 5, 2010)

I have looked at all of your points and load outs. You are wanting an assault unit so why not go with Thunder hammer terminaters? LOL sorry could not resist. On a serious note I think the honor guard would be cheaper and more effective. Just a suggestion. 

I think the command squad would be better fitted as a plasma squad to just range down TEQ's.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Grinnsira said:


> I have looked at all of your points and load outs. You are wanting an assault unit so why not go with Thunder hammer terminaters? LOL sorry could not resist. Grrrr... On a serious note I think the honor guard would be cheaper and more effective. Honour Guard suck, because you have to buy a Chapter Master for them and can't take an Apothecary. The Champion's better but not better enough. Also, they're UNGODLY expensive. Just a suggestion.
> 
> I think the command squad would be better fitted as a plasma squad to just range down TEQ's.I have a Plasma-maxed squad of Tacs already (Never fail me... too badly. The benefits outweigh the risks.) to down the TEqs.


Green (for Dark Angels) comments.

Midnight


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

I'm sorry to have mistaken your intent. Your thread is titled 'What have I done wrong?' so I thought frank appraisal was asked for. You seemed to want a squad that is strong in CC, or at least that is how I understand your OP. If not please clarify and I can direct critique more at your goals. Focussing on that however, do I have your setup correct here?



> Command squad @320pts
> Apothecary
> Vet - company champion
> Vet - PF, SS
> ...


So assuming we want CC it really is flat better to buy something like this



> 5xInq. Stormtroopers [WH] w. 2x MG, Chimera, EA, Hull-HF @160pts
> 5xTH/SS Terminators @200pts
> Librarian, Null Zone, Avenger @100pts
> =460pts


Here we have eleven guys. Two of them have MG. Five of them are TH/SS termies, who have a chimera to ride in so they can chase things and what not. They have a librarian to debuff things or melt hordes and MEQ. They get a free multilaser and a cheap heavy flamer. Will the command squad above stand up to these guys or do more? The critical thing the command squad have - the only thing really - that gives these guys any sense of trouble is the lasback, but you could have had that like this



> Command squad @205pts
> Apothecary
> 3xVets
> 1xChampion (he's a bargain so why not)
> ...


This will be just as effective against those horde units that the command squad might be as good as the termies against, and by avoiding spending points on bling leaves you points for more other stuff.

Finally think about it this way



> 1xVet, TH, SS @70pts
> or
> 1xTermie, TH, SS @40pts


FNP is a wash for 2+ armour, so at bottom the comparison is this simple.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

vonklaude said:


> I'm sorry to have mistaken your intent. Your thread is titled 'What have I done wrong?' so I thought frank appraisal was asked for. You seemed to want a squad that is strong in CC, or at least that is how I understand your OP. If not please clarify and I can direct critique more at your goals.


What he wants is to have a Command Squad that's strong in close combat. I don't think he's interested in using a squad of Terminators to fulfill this role, even if it'd win him more games.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think that the command squad need to switch targets. I personally use a company champion, banner and 2 flamers. They work well at killing numerous infantry. The captain has twin lightning claws and the company champion allow for them to be able to stand up to stuff like terminators for a couple of turns. Best of all they only cost 155 points. Excluding transport.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> What he wants is to have a Command Squad that's strong in close combat. I don't think he's interested in using a squad of Terminators to fulfill this role, even if it'd win him more games.


Possibly so. There's nothing wrong with favouring a unit and liking to see it on the table. In the OP it says the goal for the squad is to be good against Teq and in that role it is presently underperforming. So perhaps he's not thinking competitive level, but he does want to do better. So working within the constraints of

*a)* must be a command squad
*b)* must be good against Teq

Let's see. First I think you want an Assback rather than a Lasback. An Assback is going to kill you more Teq than a Lasback. A Plasmaback would also be more effective. Even an Bolterback would be better than the Lasback. 3++ is 3++ no matter how hard you hit it, so hit it more often. I'm going with Bolterback because it's cheap. Second we need to beat the Teq initiative, that's their weakness, so no PF or TH. It's worth circumventing their 2+ so PW and LC looks good. They're identical in performance against Teq, so I'm liking more attacks over rerolling wounds. PW it is. Finally, how do we feel about their attacks? FNP is no help here, so it's either fork out for SS or be mulched. SS it is.

Now the captain. MB is irrelevant to Teq so dropped. Relic blade does no better against Teq than LC, while paired LC is better at the same price. So captain goes with LC, LC.



> Command squad @260pts
> Apothecary
> Champion (PW, CS)
> Vet PW/SS
> ...


In order to 'do better' we need to understand what they will face in terms of their chosen enemy. 400pts will be say 10xTH/SS termies. Tactics are to hopefully kill one model with shooting, and then assault them. I added DW so that it is near-certain the captain will get a kill in the first round, which could be critical. In the charge this group has decent chances of dropping three Teq before any attacks are made against them, leaving only six swinging back, and more importantly forcing a LD test that is likely to be at -1 or -2. The termies will probably hang in there, at which point the outcome could go either way.

So I guess either the above, or choose a different target as *Stephen_Newman* recommends, in which case you could go to something like



> Command squad @170pts
> Apothecary
> Champion (PW, CS)
> 3x Vet
> ...


Because against those horde-eq smaller guys your chainswords will do.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

vonklaude said:


> Possibly so. There's nothing wrong with favouring a unit and liking to see it on the table. In the OP it says the goal for the squad is to be good against Teq and in that role it is presently underperforming.


And following the *useful* advice given by other posters more helpful than you, I have changed them to be anti-MEq. Read the rest of the thread.

Midnight


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> And following the *useful* advice given by other posters more helpful than you, I have changed them to be anti-MEq. Read the rest of the thread.
> 
> Midnight


Heh. I read the rest, but it's easy to miss things. Meq it is then. You have



> Command squad @320pts
> Apothecary
> Champion (PW, CS)
> Vet - PF, SS
> ...


Against Meq both PF and Relic Blade are less effective than PW or LC, and now it is worth looking at plasmaguns. Plasmaguns are _ideal_ against Meq. The standard is honestly not needed. Space marines have good LD. So that leads to



> Command squad @295
> Apothecary
> Champion (PW, CS)
> Vet PW/SS
> ...


Meq do not all carry armour bypassing weapons, so fewer SS are needed. Double LC is very strong against Meq. Note that the Champion retains his BP. The above group might expect to meet something like



> 10-man marines, flamer, MM, PW, rhino @220pts
> 10-man marines, flamer, MM, PW, rhino @220pts
> =440pts


The ride will be melted, but using smoke I think you'll get to assault range (ish). On the charge the squad equipped as I suggest should kill seven or so models. They'll safely go on to butcher the rest, if they hang around, I should think. Any PW hits are taken on the SS or the Captain's halo. All the models are differently equipped so you can put them where you like. Equipped as described will also be a decent match against Teq. Worst case they can stay in the plasmaback. You might worry about the Meq not emerging from their tin-cans: TLPG/LC takes care of that, and captain has MB just in case.


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## Big Bad Willy P (Jan 8, 2010)

First?

where is the war gear placed? the reason I ask this is for saving throws, you dont want the man with a storm shield taken a 3 plus invulnerable when he should be holding the plasma pistol in the other hand?


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Big Bad Willy P said:


> where is the war gear placed? the reason I ask this is for saving throws, you dont want the man with a storm shield taken a 3 plus invulnerable when he should be holding the plasma pistol in the other hand?


You can differently equip for saving throws just by choosing which of BP or chainsword you give up in exchange for PW. Like this



> Vet PW/SS, BP
> Vet PW/SS, chainsword


Or any vet can take MB, so you can move that from the captain if you want to keep both BPs. All through I've tried to be conscious of overspending, but it is true that plasma pistols will make this squad nastier. If you go that route then perhaps this



> Command squad @315pts
> Apothecary, BP, chainsword
> Champion (PW, CS), BP, flamer
> Vet PW/SS, flamer, MB
> ...


So yes, the right answer to '_Shall I give my Meq hunting Command Squad plasma pistols?_' is: flamer x3. :biggrin:


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

So in summary, setting up a foot (or mech) command squad for Teq is a terrible idea. Use TH/SS Terminators. This analysis is as simple as



> TH/SS Terminator @40pts
> TH/SS Command Squad @53pts


FNP is a wash with 2+. Setting up a foot (or mech) command squad for Meq is not quite such a terrible idea, but still pretty bad. A decent bet is



> Command squad @305pts
> Apothecary, BP, chainsword
> Champion (PW, CS), BP, flamer
> Vet PW/SS, flamer
> ...


Which will be readily defeated in play against any reasonably spent equivalent points in Meq.

Command squad used correctly are for 

Close combat rock in an all biker list, if you want one. 
With no trimmings as a decent 1+1 addition.
Plasma carrying due to FNP.
You like the models and want to see them on the table.


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