# Dark Creed *Spoilers*



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Just finished reading the third installment in the Word Bearers Series, and quite simply 'Wow!' - What a fantastic book, and in my opinion the best of the trilogy, Anthony Reynolds has really outdone himself on this one!

Im still really trying to formulate a solid theory about the ending, where it was stated that, Erebus: "There are some who feel that Abaddon is not worthy of bearing the title of Warmaster any longer... Some feel the time approaches for him to be... relieved of the position... There is much work to be done."

The only theory I can bring myself to formulate is that Lorgar himself seeks the title of Warmaster and overlordship of the Chaos Forces. Firstly because Erebus knows of the plot, this implies that it is a member of the Word Bearers - in my opinion unlikely to be Erebus who seeks the title, even he knows thats beyond him. Again with Kor Phaeron, it is above him and he was too tied up trying to Purge the Word Bearers via the Brotherhood.

This had led me to speculate that Lorgar (having meditated isolated for millenia within the Templum Inficio) thinks himself as the true Warmaster, the Messiah, and true son of Chaos and therefore should lead the Chaos Forces. After all he is a Daemon Primarch 

Aside from that although its implied that the Grand Apostle Ekodas is who orchestrated the death of the Black Legion sorcerer, maybe this ties in with the plot to usurp Abaddon. Although if it was Ekodas, that would suggest that Kor Phaeron and the Brotherhood were ultimately behind it and thus maybe Kor Phaeron who is trying to usurp the Warmaster, unless it was Lorgar himself who ordered it and thus it was actually the Urizen who reformed the Brotherhood for the third time to challenge the Dark Council and ultimatley claim the title of Warmaster... hmm... :scare:

The revelation of Wormholes and how they effect Warp Travel was fascinating I thought.

Aside from all that, it can be seen as a bit of an Anti-Climax towards the end, The Prophecies came to nothing, The Necrons vanished, The Nexus was destroyed and the Imperials would have reconquered the Boros Gate, although the system was arguably irevertibly corrupted.

Just wondered your thoughts on the subject (and the book in general) if you've read the book!


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

hhmm after i finish this GK omnibus i might get into the word bearers saga, sounds pretty sweet. but ive still got the Soul Drinkers omnibus sitting here unread but... damn. good little (mini) review COTE. thats 3 word bearers novels right? omnibus should be just around the corner! sweet. we need more chaos SM novels IMO.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

My copy hasn't arrived yet. It'll be here either tomorrow or Saturday, can't wait to read it.

Didn't read your post though Child of the Emperor, dont want anything spoiled for me. Ill give my thoughts on it once I finish it.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Well I got the book at 10.30am this morning and finished it at 6.30pm give or take. It was amazing. Definitely worth every single penny I spent for it.

I think that Kor Phaeron's scheme was just to weed out the traitors within the XVII legion, though it may be something bigger then that. We'll find out in the next Word Bearers novel


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I think that Kor Phaeron's scheme was just to weed out the traitors within the XVII legion, though it may be something bigger then that.


What traitors? Kor Phaeron reformed the Brotherhood because he thought Erebus was bending the legion to his will, and he was losing out on the power. Erebus explains that because him and Kor Phaeron are essentially the highest ranking Word Bearers bar the Urizen, they always have scraps and plots at one another for power grabbing reasons and to keep the other in check, especially after Lorgar's absence.

What really interests me though is the plot at the end about someone usurping Abaddon, which I can only assume is Lorgar himself. What did you think about that bit?



Lord of the Night said:


> We'll find out in the next Word Bearers novel


I assumed there wouldn't be any more novels, I thought it was a trilogy? Although I may well be wrong, the Ultramarines got more than 3 after all!


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I meant the Word Bearers like Burias and Khalaxis who 'could' turn on the Dark Council and the legion would be identified and crushed while Word Bearers like Marduk and Kol Badar were loyal would be fine.

Lorgar usurping Abaddon. Would be interesting, I dont think that Lorgar is that interested though. I think its Erebus or Kor Phaeron who want to take Abaddon's place, of course if they try they'll both end up dead.

I hope so, besides there is still a lot left to be told. Marduk's new responsibility as a council member, the repercussions of Inshabael's death and the plot against Abaddon. That and I would like to know what Marduk did with Burias, I assume Burias is in the Basilica of Torments.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I thought that Burias was OP "over powered" Im glad hes dead. I was like holly shit, he was blown to pieces a hundred times and was able to heal. He pwned so many good warriors including a chapter master, and I was like... okay Burias thats too much. I can understand if Marduk owned him but you? But who knows he might have been able to kill him too. He almost killed Kor Phaeron hadn't Marduk incenerated him with the melta gun.

I was impressed by the white eagle/ or blue eagle... the last of the white counsels left on the planet, I was glad there was some hope for the empyream left in the end though I know it was a chaos book. But those word bearers were just pwning everyone! Which leads me to last point.

I thought the book was awesome, but I preferred the first one a little more... just thought the battle scenes where more detailed. However, I thought a lot less about the word bearers after this book. After the necrons basically came in and made the whole planet a free for all, I was like wow... thats what happens when you play with things that don't belong to you Word Bearers. Throughout the series you hear all about the hard struggles of the word bearers all to end up with a disaster leaving the Word Bearers legion in ruin. Marduk is the only Apostle with a small retinue of warrior left from the disaster to get away. And even they start purging there own ranks! After reading this book I was like... I haven't READ a book with such a devastation to a legion since the Istavaan Drop Sit Massacre.

An open question that i had was whether chaos is turning against itself. If the Word Bearers are ever able to reforge their former strength, how far will they go to purify the ranks? Will they try to do so over all the legions?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I meant the Word Bearers like Burias and Khalaxis who 'could' turn on the Dark Council and the legion would be identified and crushed while Word Bearers like Marduk and Kol Badar were loyal would be fine.


Well thats loyalty to the Dark Council, not necessarily the Urizen himself. Kor Phaeron is the keeper of faith, but not a member of the council. The Dark Council could have just grabbed power following Lorgar's absence, no where does it say that Lorgar put the Dark Council in charge, thus Kor Phaeron may have been doing the right thing as far as loyalty to the legion/Lorgar goes. Heck Lorgar may have even ordered the reforming of the Brotherhood who knows.



Lord of the Night said:


> Lorgar usurping Abaddon. Would be interesting, I dont think that Lorgar is that interested though. I think its Erebus or Kor Phaeron who want to take Abaddon's place, of course if they try they'll both end up dead.


Well I doubt its Erebus or Kor Phaeron that are planning to usurp Abaddon. I think they both know its beyond them both, they are both utterly loyal to Lorgar and do you think they would both be willing to take power that would in a sense elevate them above their Primarch? To me it seems obvious that its Lorgar.

* He has been meditating for millenia, isolated. Thus could have been instructed to (by the gods) or decided himself that Abaddon is a failure and needs usurping. Or that he is the rightful Warmaster of Chaos given that he instigated the Heresy and is the favoured son of Chaos, being a Daemon Prince en all. 
* Hes a Primarch, he would think himself above Abaddon in every way.
* Erebus knows about the plot to usurp Abaddon, meaning that its likely that its a Word Bearer who wants to usurp the title of Warmaster.



ckcrawford said:


> I thought that Burias was OP "over powered" Im glad hes dead. I was like holly shit, he was blown to pieces a hundred times and was able to heal. He pwned so many good warriors including a chapter master, and I was like... okay Burias thats too much. I can understand if Marduk owned him but you? But who knows he might have been able to kill him too.


I disagree. Burias was the champion of a Dark Apostle, Icon Bearer of a host and a possessed Astartes. He had mastered his possession and thus could summon the powerful daemon at will. Overpowered because he killed a chapter master who was a 'normal' astartes, when he was possessed and has had almost 10,000 years experiance of war? Nope I dont think so 



ckcrawford said:


> He almost killed Kor Phaeron hadn't Marduk incenerated him with the melta gun.


You mean Kol Badar right? 



ckcrawford said:


> Throughout the series you hear all about the hard struggles of the word bearers all to end up with a disaster leaving the Word Bearers legion in ruin. Marduk is the only Apostle with a small retinue of warrior left from the disaster to get away. And even they start purging there own ranks! After reading this book I was like... I haven't READ a book with such a devastation to a legion since the Istavaan Drop Sit Massacre.


Well theres more than 5 Dark Apostles y'know? Marduk isn't the only one in the legion left, there are dozens of hosts in the legion, 4 got destroyed in the dark crusade, a felt loss i imagine, but no way near fatal to the legion as a whole.



ckcrawford said:


> An open question that i had was whether chaos is turning against itself. If the Word Bearers are ever able to reforge their former strength, how far will they go to purify the ranks? Will they try to do so over all the legions?


Well the attempted third purge of the Legion ended in failure, and Kor Phaeron cut all ties with the Brotherhood. It was just a fail-safe on the part of Kor Phaeron, trying to make sure Erebus didn't grab too much power and tilt the balance of power in his favour. The cleansing of their ranks ended with the book, all supporters of the brotherhood (bar Kor Phaeron) were put down and the Legion is 'pure' again, well from the perspective of the Dark Council anyway.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well thats loyalty to the Dark Council, not necessarily the Urizen himself. Kor Phaeron is the keeper of faith, but not a member of the council. The Dark Council could have just grabbed power following Lorgar's absence, no where does it say that Lorgar put the Dark Council in charge, thus Kor Phaeron may have been doing the right thing as far as loyalty to the legion/Lorgar goes. Heck Lorgar may have even ordered the reforming of the Brotherhood who knows.


Maybe but I doubt it. Lorgar wont have had any contact with anyone, its not the kind of thing you could hide or keep secret.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well I doubt its Erebus or Kor Phaeron that are planning to usurp Abaddon. I think they both know its beyond them both, they are both utterly loyal to Lorgar and do you think they would both be willing to take power that would in a sense elevate them above their Primarch? To me it seems obvious that its Lorgar.
> 
> * He has been meditating for millenia, isolated. Thus could have been instructed to (by the gods) or decided himself that Abaddon is a failure and needs usurping. Or that he is the rightful Warmaster of Chaos given that he instigated the Heresy and is the favoured son of Chaos, being a Daemon Prince en all.
> * Hes a Primarch, he would think himself above Abaddon in every way.
> * Erebus knows about the plot to usurp Abaddon, meaning that its likely that its a Word Bearer who wants to usurp the title of Warmaster.


Maybe Lorgar isn't interested and Erebus and Kor Phaeron are acting in the interests of the XVII Legion.

No argument that Abaddon is a failure, thirteen freaking crusades and the only achievement he has to show for it is control of Cadia's ground.. while the Imperial fleets bomb his troops right back to Chaos.

Thats true, even Erebus thinks so.

Most likely its him, he is more qualified. Its his manipulations that started the whole heresy.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree. Burias was the champion of a Dark Apostle, Icon Bearer of a host and a possessed Astartes. He had mastered his possession and thus could summon the powerful daemon at will. Overpowered because he killed a chapter master who was a 'normal' astartes, when he was possessed and has had almost 10,000 years experiance of war? Nope I dont think so


Definitely. Most Possessed are controlled by their Daemon or die during transformations. Burias was a master and the Chapter Master was no match for him. It took Kol Badar, someone with far more experience in battle to kill him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Maybe but I doubt it. Lorgar wont have had any contact with anyone, its not the kind of thing you could hide or keep secret.


I don't see why not.



Lord of the Night said:


> Maybe Lorgar isn't interested and Erebus and Kor Phaeron are acting in the interests of the XVII Legion.
> 
> Thats true, even Erebus thinks so.
> 
> Most likely its him, he is more qualified. Its his manipulations that started the whole heresy.


I disagree that hes more qualified than Abaddon. Firstly the Black Legion is ten times larger than the Word Bearers, Abaddon has unified elements of all the Chaos Legions on more than one occasion - thus he has the necessary influence, and is favoured of the gods.

Erebus on the other hand really only has influence among the Word Bearers, and even then its challenged by Kor Phaeron. Erebus wouldn't make a very successful Warmaster no doubt about that.



Lord of the Night said:


> No argument that Abaddon is a failure, thirteen freaking crusades and the only achievement he has to show for it is control of Cadia's ground.. while the Imperial fleets bomb his troops right back to Chaos.


Now there I strongly disagree. Abaddon is certainly not a failure, but I fear it will go radically off-topic if I start arguing that case here :cray:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

If Lorgar had contact with any Word Bearer then they would cherish the memory, the imprint it would leave is something any psyker would be able to detect. That and somebody as smart as Erebus would be able to deduce it.

I didn't say the Word Bearers were more qualified, I said Erebus is more qualified. He is smarter then Abaddon, stronger although Abaddon has a much better weapon, he is far more charismatic, he swayed two Primarchs to his side, and has had more successes, successes that lasted and made differences, then Abaddon.

Off-topic doesn't seem to truly matter. Plus a debate is very fun. No success of Abaddon's has lasted or made a real difference. Abaddon's only worthwhile, lasting achievement is the formation of the Black Legion. Every Black Crusade has ended in abject failure and the current one is turning against Chaos rapidly.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I didn't say the Word Bearers were more qualified, I said Erebus is more qualified. He is smarter then Abaddon, stronger although Abaddon has a much better weapon, he is far more charismatic, he swayed two Primarchs to his side, and has had more successes, successes that lasted and made differences, then Abaddon.


I know you said Erebus and not the Word Bearers legion as a whole, but Erebus' influence only really extends as far as the Word Bearers legion, not much further. Abaddon on the other hand has influence across all the legions and can muster a sufficient force to launch Black Crusades. Erebus couldn't hold together a force the size required for a Black Crusade. Even Erebus recognised the extent of the Warmaster's power:




Dark Disciple Page 406 said:


> 'You will extend him all the courtesies that such an esteemed envoy demands in the coming Crusade,' Lord Erebus had said. 'He is the emissary of the Warmaster, and although Abaddon is but a pale shadow of Horus, we must show the requisite respect...'


Erebus may not like the fact that Abaddon is the Warmaster of Chaos, and may be a part of the plot to usurp him - But he still recognises the power and influence of Abaddon, and realises it would be foolhardy to challenge him directly.


Aside from that how is he smarter or stronger than Abaddon? Also Abaddon maintains the loyalty of the vast majority if not all of the Black Legion, which in and of itself outnumbers the Word Bearers 10:1. He also maintains influence in all of the other legions, including even the Word Bearers. Do you think the Black Legion would follow Erebus if Abaddon was usurped? I highly doubt it, the legion and infact any resemblence of a unified army of Chaos would be shattered.



Lord of the Night said:


> Off-topic doesn't seem to truly matter. Plus a debate is very fun. No success of Abaddon's has lasted or made a real difference. Abaddon's only worthwhile, lasting achievement is the formation of the Black Legion. Every Black Crusade has ended in abject failure and the current one is turning against Chaos rapidly.


Abaddon has led several Black Crusades. It is obvious why he hasn't reach Terra yet, he didn't have the strength, influence, allies or element of suprise as Horus had, and aside from that hes confined to the Eye of Terror which is guarded and surrounded by one of the most, if not the most heavily defended sector in the entire galaxy. But with what resources available to him he has achieved tremendous successes. Just because he hasn't conquered Terra and thrown down the False Emperor doesn't mean hes a failure.

He is blessed by the Gods and bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and wields the mighty Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus, marking him as Horus' successor. He is the only individual who can wield the influence necessary to loosely unite the Traitor Legions. If Abaddon was usurped by Erebus, it would be great for the Imperium, Black Crusades would no longer occur in such strength, ferocity and frequency.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that Erebus recognizes the strength of the Black Legion rather then Abaddon. Anyone who crosses the Black Legion is dead, no question. But Abaddon himself, I think many of his lieutenants would support Erebus, mainly because they hate and fear the Despoiler.

Abaddon maintains the Black Legion's loyalty through fear, if he was removed the Legion could grow to like their new leader and admire him, like the Word Bearers do with Erebus. The same goes for the other legions, fear. They are all petrified of him because to say no to him is basically committing suicide.

The Daemon Prince Doombreed led the 5th Black Crusade and killed two Astartes chapters totally, the Warhawks and the Venerators. And much much much more, not clarified but its pretty obvious that billions of guardsmen, hundreds, even thousands of ships were crushed, entire systems razed. That was the most successful crusade. The others have all been subpar and barely made it out of the Eye. Doombreed did it, granted he is the most powerful Daemon Prince of all, but if Abaddon is truly the Warmaster he should be able to do that. Perhaps Doombreed would be a better prospect.

The Chaos Gods are fickle in their affections, one moment you are their chosen and the next you are Chaos Spawn at the feet of their next chosen. Its happened too many times to count. He stole the Talon of Horus, no inheritance there, and only claimed Drach'nyen because the Deceiver led him to it, plus if he ever loses control for a second the blade will void him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I think that Erebus recognizes the strength of the Black Legion rather then Abaddon. Anyone who crosses the Black Legion is dead, no question. But Abaddon himself, I think many of his lieutenants would support Erebus, mainly because they hate and fear the Despoiler.


The Black Legion _is_ Abaddon, and visa versa. The Black Legion is a loosely unified 'legion' of warbands that all owe allegience to Abaddon. Without Abaddon, the Black Legion falls apart - years, decades, possibly even centuries of infighting would follow as seperate captains/lords/lieutenants would fight for power. Erebus wouldn't be able to carve out the influence and power needed to become Warmaster.

Abaddon's influence in the other Chaos legions is largely maintained through fear though yes, as long as he is the lord of the Black Legion (The largest and most powerful Chaos Legion) then he will remain the Warmaster of Chaos.



Lord of the Night said:


> Abaddon maintains the Black Legion's loyalty through fear, if he was removed the Legion could grow to like their new leader and admire him, like the Word Bearers do with Erebus. The same goes for the other legions, fear. They are all petrified of him because to say no to him is basically committing suicide.


Not necessarily through fear exclusively, but at least partly yes. The main problem there though is that how would Erebus gain the allegience of the entire Black Legion? There are countless warlords and captains that would try to fill the shoes of Abaddon if he were removed, how would Erebus triumph over all of these warlords? Heck, I imagine there are some Warbands that are ruled by Black Legion lords that rival the size of the entire Word Bearers legion (given the entire Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10:1). Erebus wouldn't be able to place himself in a position where he could rule over the Black Legion, even if he had the entire XVII legion at his command (which he probably wouldn't given that Kor Phaeron would oppose him).

Also who said that the Word Bearers admire Erebus? If anything the Dark Council rules through fear in a similar way as Abaddon does. 



Lord of the Night said:


> That was the most successful crusade. The others have all been subpar and barely made it out of the Eye. Doombreed did it, granted he is the most powerful Daemon Prince of all, but if Abaddon is truly the Warmaster he should be able to do that. Perhaps Doombreed would be a better prospect.


The 12th Black Crusade led by Abaddon made it to the Gothic Sector. Over half way across the galaxy from the Eye, hardly just barely making it outside the Eye. 

Each Black Crusade led by Abaddon has gained more power and favour for him. Each one brings the Imperium closer to breaking point, Abaddon is in no rush, he has all the time in the world, one day he will break the Cadian Gate completley and the road to Terra will be wide open.

Doombreed's crusade may have been very destructive, but the point remains that Abaddon is the only individual that maintains the influence across the entire Chaos Forces to mould together such vast armies as those present during the 13th Black Crusade (which was the largest mobilisation of Imperial and Chaotic Forces since the Horus Heresy itself). 



Lord of the Night said:


> The Chaos Gods are fickle in their affections, one moment you are their chosen and the next you are Chaos Spawn at the feet of their next chosen. Its happened too many times to count.


Well hes managed to mantain their blessings and favour for 100 centuries, if the gods percieved him as a failure he would have gained spawndom a long time ago.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I have to say, this book has everything I like & don't like about black library fiction in it...

My biggest problem with this novel is how many stupid mistakes there are in the editing! How many times did the author mix up characters? I believe that Khalaxis (the berseker champion) and Kol Badar (the terminator champion) were confused at least twice. The icon bearer & the first acolyte were also mixed up at least once! If the author doesn't care enough about his characters to ensure they're not mixed up, why the hell should we care?


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## karim =) (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm doubtful the whole of the council of sicarus could kill Abaddon.


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## Anomagnus (May 24, 2010)

I loved Dark Creed. It ended a little fast, but to be honest, there was a lot happening, and i can forgive that. A brilliant description of how the word bears corrupt a world

I'm afraid i am a big fan of the good guys winning, and as much as i like the story, part of me wanted Marduk to get his just rewards for his heretical ways.

Regarding Lorgar becoming the Warmaster, i'm not sure. I think by becoming Daemon Princes of such stature, i think they've been left slightly disconnected from reality. Would they even care about bringing about the end of the Imperium anymore? Its a breeding ground for war, intrigue, decay, disease, cults, and magic. Being daemon princes, being scions of the gods of chaos, i had an image of their perception wildly altered, seeing the past and the future, and eddies of fate. I personally thing that the Daemon primarchs are too detached any more to want something as mundane as warmaster.

I think this is why Abbadon has turned down repeated offeres of deamon princehood. He doesn't want to relinquish his hatred, he can never forgive the Imperium, and doesn't want any 'gift' that might alter his goal of burning the imperium down.

I also think this wouldnt sit well with Angron, and might explain his attempt at destroying armageddon. A last ditch attempt to reclaim some part of his old life, to deliver slaughter and war in the way he was designed and built to deliver it.

But bringing it back, i can't see Lorgar as warmaster, because it just wouldnt interest him. I also think that Kor Phaeron and Erebus would much prefer to be the power behind a throne, and they're moving Marduk into a postion of power.

It would be a much more interesting story to have marduk vs abbadon than lorgar vs abbadon. More of an even match.

Anyway, great book


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## karim =) (Aug 30, 2008)

Marduk would get om nomed nomed. Read what he does to Talos in soul hunter. He shoots talos a single time in the chest, talos not registering the movement. The bolt cracks Talos' breastplate, but that's not what brings him down. A burst of black daemon-mist ejects from his weapon and bypasses Talos' helmet grille and chokes him. OWNT


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Personally I hated this book, what Reynolds did with the others was he made the Word Bearers beliveable. All the space marine novels were about one company killing a thousand chaos marines and I was sick of it. Here they were balanced enough to be unstopable but not invincible.

However, in this book it was a return to the days where chaos turns on one another and ends up loosing far more than the imperium. After two books I was hoping for something good, not like the end of the imperium but maybe they let the Necrons take the sector and start a war that would cost the imperium.

Instead all we got was the chaos marines loosing hundreds, either cut down on landing, fighting marines, escaping from necrons who were more powerful than perhaps any other incarnation and loosing the sector and the device before a needless war in the legion where thousands will die in power struggles of no consaquence that will likely continue.

I loved the Word Bearers as they were united, they fought the imperium and managed to hold their own in the books. Here it all fell apart for me. they lost thousands of men, will loose thousands more and achived nothing. I mean it nothing, the conflict will go on, the power struggles won't end here and Lorgar didn't return.

It was well written but not what I wanted from a series that finally let the Imperium take a beating and chaos have one full victory in a world where the chapters seem to rival traitor forces triple their size due to "faith in the Emperor" and oppose all logic. Although I finally found a book willing to give them a 1:1 kill ratio it broke down what i loved about the legion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> Personally I hated this book, what Reynolds did with the others was he made the Word Bearers beliveable. All the space marine novels were about one company killing a thousand chaos marines and I was sick of it. Here they were balanced enough to be unstopable but not invincible.
> 
> However, in this book it was a return to the days where chaos turns on one another and ends up loosing far more than the imperium. After two books I was hoping for something good, not like the end of the imperium but maybe they let the Necrons take the sector and start a war that would cost the imperium.
> 
> ...


That seems more of a criticism of the continuing 40k plot, rather than just this particular novel? 

As for the Word Bearer's disunified nature. Well their Chaos, its part of the package - and their actually one of most unified Chaos Legions. The Boros Gate Crusade seems to not have only been an attempt to gain control of the wormholes, but also an opportunity pursued by Erebus to unearth the Brotherhood plotters and thwart the threat to the Dark Council. In fact its plausable that this was the main reason for the Crusade, and the inclusion of the particular Dark Apostles.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Yea I know what you mean but my heart sort of sank when I learnt the value of their target. Something of lesser importance, that would have had no great bearing on the story would have been great as we could have won and walked away. Instead we lost and are in a civil war with power struggles that, forgive me if I'm wrong, was little more than an old rivalry and disagreement over how things should be run that won't be resolved any time soon. To me it was the end of something that separated the Word Bearers out, they were brothers with only personal feuds that didn't weaken the legion to any degree.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> Yea I know what you mean but my heart sort of sank when I learnt the value of their target. Something of lesser importance, that would have had no great bearing on the story would have been great as we could have won and walked away.


Maybe, but then what would have been the point of mustering huge amounts of resources and hosts together just to attack a random planet/system/sector which would have had no effect on the Long War ultimately?

There seems to be some sort of consistency in Chaos Astartes novels these days - in that a fair few of them are based around particular Legions and factions acting on behalf of or sponsored by Abaddon, to achieve particular objectives in the build up to the 13th Black Crusade. _Soul Hunter_, _Storm of Iron_, and _Dark Creed_ are just three examples. Which goes some way to justify the Boros Gate Crusade. The capture of the Wormholes would have obviously been devastating for the Imperium.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Ok, my point is this. If they had struck at a Titan foundry they could have won and gotten away with it as Titan legions are written off easily in the book. However, having struck at a vital staging point it was doomed to fail for the 40k story to carry on.

My other point is "What was the good that came out of the brotherhood plot?". I liked the legion for being united on a legion level but now they've had a full scale conflict with only word bearer casualties and no benefit. The legion isn't any stronger because of it, Lorgar isn't back and the leader of the rebellion is beyond reprisal and will probably stage future coos. 

I fail to see the gain and I really want to. I seem to be the only one to feel this way so I really hope to be missing something. Am I?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> Ok, my point is this. If they had struck at a Titan foundry they could have won and gotten away with it as Titan legions are written off easily in the book. However, having struck at a vital staging point it was doomed to fail for the 40k story to carry on.
> 
> My other point is "What was the good that came out of the brotherhood plot?". I liked the legion for being united on a legion level but now they've had a full scale conflict with only word bearer casualties and no benefit. The legion isn't any stronger because of it, Lorgar isn't back and the leader of the rebellion is beyond reprisal and will probably stage future coos.
> 
> I fail to see the gain and I really want to. I seem to be the only one to feel this way so I really hope to be missing something. Am I?


Maybe but then their victory would have been assured if it were some random target. Rather the Boros Gate is a target vital enough to warrant the Word Bearers interest but important a target that the battle could go either way. There was no guarantee the Imperium would be victorious and no guarantee that the Word Bearers would be victorious.

However the Word Bearers loss isn't accurate. This is a good victory for them. They have devastated a large and important area for the Imperium, an entire Space Marine Chapter is crippled and will require centuries of rebuilding, and they have rooted out many amongst them who's faith is weak. True Kor Phaeron is alive and may try this again but will he find any to follow him?, its likely the entire Brotherhood has been wiped out and thus the Word Bearers are pure and loyal again. Maybe some rebellious elements are there but they will be dealt with eventually, Erebus and the Dark Council are the rulers of Sicarus in the Urizen's absence, not Kor Phaeron.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Fair enough, traitors are the price of chaos and its more than worth it. And the numbers aren't important. New brothers will rise and fall but the Imperium has lost a key world and will never be the same again as well as irreplaceable technology (the space station).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> I fail to see the gain and I really want to. I seem to be the only one to feel this way so I really hope to be missing something. Am I?


The general point regarding the attempted third purge of the Brotherhood was that it was a conflict of principles - a power struggle which would determine which individual was the dominant character of the XVII Legion throughout Lorgar's continued absence. Ultimately I think the internal conflict between the Dark Council and the Brotherhood was the most important factor of the Boros Gate Crusade (even more important to the Word Bearers than capturing the Wormholes), and I believe the conflict has/had something to do with the plot to usurp Abaddon.

On a side note personally Erebus' admission and explanation to Marduk at the end, I interpreted as the power struggles that occur between the Dark Council and the Master of Faith keep the Word Bearers on track, pure of mind and purpose and aligned with the purpose and faith of their Primarch and Legion. These internal conflicts although potentially far-reaching and revolutionary, are necessary to maintain the purity of the Legion. Just my thoughts anyway.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

So anyone willing to avert their gaze from chaos to personal ambition instead of serving chaos and the legion should be killed and replaced with two new recruits to the legion. The brotherhood was probably a ploy to weed out all those willing to betray the legion and destroy them.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Maybe, it is intruiging to see all the differnet factions within the Word bearer legion. Im inclined to think the same way as COTE. 

Maybe the newer members of the legion have different lying loyalties?


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I am currently reading Dark Creed, and I must admit, it is one of the best potrayls of Chaos Marines (All of the series that is...) bar the Dragon Warriors from the Tome of Fire. I was a bit pissed off that Sarabdal dies so early on, I really liked him, the tensions between Burias and Marduk has been good thus far; along with the White Consuls ranking system, although that is a bit confusing at first. Shall certainly post a review here, so far it is the best book I have read out of my new order however!


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The White Consuls have one thing that makes them unique from all other Space Marine chapters, except the two chapter master thing. They believe in and worship the God-Emperor. Other then that I liked them, was tough to root for the Word Bearers but I still did :grin:.

Though I preferred Burias in _Dark Disciple_ when he was confident and cynical, in _Dark Creed_ he became whiny and unappreciative of what he had. He was the best warrior in the host, better then both Marduk and Kol Badar, and he bore the Icon of the host which is a huge honour. And he still wanted more, greedy.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I reckon he'll be back in some crazy daemon form to wreck some form of vengance.

However it would be nice if he stayed dead, meltagun to the face and all that.

Does show how willing they are to fuck eachother up though!


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