# Imperator Titans and their horrible track records



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Is it me, or do Imperators get it worse than CSM in a Space Marine novel?

In the 6 books I can recall off the top of my head that have had Imperators, 5 of them had the Imperator destroyed.

I'm finally realizing why they're so rare. They're sent out to battle alone without a real screening force of super-heavys or other Titans!

Edit: Ah, I just remember a 7th book an Imperator was in. That one was destroyed, too.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Proably right there i can think of two books with Imperators "Wrath Of Iron" and "Blood Quest" in blood quest the Chaos Imperator dies to a melta bomb to the knee, havn't finished the "Wrath Of Iron" book so not sure how the Imperator fairs


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Helsreach has one. The Black Templars activate it, and it lives through the novel.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Helsreach has one. The Black Templars activate it, and it lives through the novel.


No, that's one of the five novels in which the Imperator dies.

They do manage to resurrect part of an Ordinatus Armageddon, though.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

It's the Worf effect. When you have to show how deadly something is you have it lay the smackdown on the toughest thing around. 

For the Imperium it's the Imperator titan, for the Eldar the Avatar, for Chaos a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

DeathJester921 said:


> Helsreach has one. The Black Templars activate it, and it lives through the novel.





hailene said:


> No, that's one of the five novels in which the Imperator dies.
> 
> They do manage to resurrect part of an Ordinatus Armageddon, though.


 
This ^^ , Hailene has it right . The Imperator dies to the Mega ork god slayer , then the newly activated Ord/armageddon destroys the Ork titan .
:victory:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

arlins said:


> This ^^ , Hailene has it right . The Imperator dies to the Mega ork god slayer , then the newly activated Ord/armageddon destroys the Ork titan .
> :victory:



I dislike how the Orks constructed a titan killer in a matter of days using scrap metal from the very planet they were on. 

In general I dislike their ability to create titans of their own at all so quickly/cheaply but I suppose it is necessary for them fluff/table-top-wise to compete with the other races.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The one in _Betrayer _went down pretty easily. I know warhounds are formidable in their own right, but that was just ridiculous. An Imperator is a god amongst god machines, but it seems that BL authors use their destruction as a handy plot device to boost the prowess of whichever element achieves it.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Rems said:


> It's the Worf effect. When you have to show how deadly something is you have it lay the smackdown on the toughest thing around.
> 
> For the Imperium it's the Imperator titan, for the Eldar the Avatar, for Chaos a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince.


It can pretty much be summed up here. Bad thing is that if authors use it too much it starts to make some things ridiculously weak, like the Imperator-class titan. In reality they're probably the single most expensive, destructive, well armored, well protected piece of equipment mankind has ever assembled, and probably one of the biggest machinations made by any sentient species.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> It can pretty much be summed up here. Bad thing is that if authors use it too much it starts to make some things ridiculously weak, like the Imperator-class titan. In reality they're probably the single most expensive, destructive, well armored, well protected piece of equipment mankind has ever assembled, and probably one of the biggest machinations made by any sentient species.


I used to be a God-Machine, but then I took a melta-bomb to the knee.....


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Tawa said:


> I used to be a God-Machine, but then I took a melta-bomb to the knee.....


You son of a bitch...


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> You son of a bitch...


You rang? :laugh:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The one in Betrayer went down pretty easily.


This one I'm actually more willing to forgive. There were 30 Warhounds. And the WBs and WEs were making it hell to land troops and support for the UMs. It makes more sense that the Imperator would be isolated and overwhelmed.

Plus it takes a bit of time for a titan to get warmed up and that's when the Warhounds nabbed it.

Still, it would have been nice for the text to mention that the Imperator should have had an escort of other titans and superheavies but X came up and prevented it. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> I dislike how the Orks constructed a titan killer in a matter of days using scrap metal from the very planet they were on.


Yeah, apparently it only took the Orks 30 days to build it. Compared to decades if not centuries for any other titan. Even building a scout titan from scratch in 30 days would be a bit much.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

hailene said:


> No, that's one of the five novels in which the Imperator dies.
> 
> They do manage to resurrect part of an Ordinatus Armageddon, though.


My bad. Was thinking of the Ordinatus Armageddon.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

How good is the quality of Ork equipment though? I know it runs better if the WAAAGH! of the horde is higher, so if it all hits the fan and the main leadership falls, leaving the Orks in a panic, do their machines just turn to crap? I've wondered that about Orky things for a while now.

I think if it took a month to make a Warhound-class titan, things would be a tad bit more fair towards the Imperium's side of things.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> How good is the quality of Ork equipment though? I know it runs better if the WAAAGH! of the horde is higher, so if it all hits the fan and the main leadership falls, leaving the Orks in a panic, do their machines just turn to crap? I've wondered that about Orky things for a while now.


I don't believe it works that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ork technology doesn't work better the better the WAAAAGH! gets. Not directly.

The more powerful a WAAAGH! the more mekboys it'll attract. The more mekboys, the larger and more elaborate their creations become. So in a way they're connected, but not really directly.



Ddraig Cymry said:


> I think if it took a month to make a Warhound-class titan, things would be a tad bit more fair towards the Imperium's side of things.


It took them a month to build a titan capable of absolutely wrecking a Warlord Titan in single combat, destroying a warhound in a single hit, and taking on a battle weary Imperator with 2 supporting Reavers without much issue.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> I don't believe it works that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ork technology doesn't work better the better the WAAAAGH! gets. Not directly.
> 
> The more powerful a WAAAGH! the more mekboys it'll attract. The more mekboys, the larger and more elaborate their creations become. So in a way they're connected, but not really directly.
> 
> ...


Considering the fact that orks aren't exactly concerned with things like safety and praying to the omisari before they scratch their butts it makes sense.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

hailene said:


> I don't believe it works that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ork technology doesn't work better the better the WAAAAGH! gets. Not directly.
> 
> The more powerful a WAAAGH! the more mekboys it'll attract. The more mekboys, the larger and more elaborate their creations become. So in a way they're connected, but not really directly.


That makes MUCH more sense then, thank you!



hailene said:


> It took them a month to build a titan capable of absolutely wrecking a Warlord Titan in single combat, destroying a warhound in a single hit, and taking on a battle weary Imperator with 2 supporting Reavers without much issue.


I was talking about if the Imperium could build a Warhound-Class in a month. I am well aware of the Orks superhuman ability to fashion machines of death in a short amount of time lol


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Is it me, or do Imperators get it worse than CSM in a Space Marine novel?


CSM usually do OK in SM novels, unless they're Word Bearers 




Khorne's Fist said:


> The one in _Betrayer _went down pretty easily. I know warhounds are formidable in their own right, but that was just ridiculous. An Imperator is a god amongst god machines, but it seems that BL authors use their destruction as a handy plot device to boost the prowess of whichever element achieves it.


The one in _Betrayer_ suffers from the illusion of going down like a chump. 

In fact, I think this is a genuine problem with Aaron's writing. He describes loyalist deaths in graphic detail but only mentions loyalist kills in passing. 

As I recall, the Corinthian (the loyalist Imperator in question) destroys quite a few Warhounds:


> Below, racing through the streets of the burning city, thirty Warhounds came on in a rush of crude mechanical precision. World Eaters and Word Bearers units raced with them, as did skitarii troop transports and skimmers in the Legio Audax's dark red and black.
> 
> Ultramarines met the oncoming horde. Oberon skitarii, recently spilled from landers, joined their Macraggian allies. Enemy Warhounds lurched at Corinthian's heels, raising weapons of their own.
> 
> ...


Presumably, the traitor Warhounds outnumber the loyalist Warhounds by a considerable margin (more than enough to compensate for the presence of a loyalist Imperator). Nevertheless a dozen traitor Warhounds are destroyed. Most of that number likely go down to the Imperator's defensive fire. 

However, since all we get is one sentence "Audax [traitor] Titans went down...", the illusion is that the traitors steamrolled the loyalists. 

The same problem crops up in Aaron's NL series. It's not that the Blood Angels don't inflict casualties upon the NL. It's that none of them are described. Aaron graphically describes how Talos and friends decapitate, disembowel, dismember hapless BA, but NL casualties inflicted by the BA receive only one sentence in a post-battle report. 

*The result is that the actual battle might be far from lop-sided, but the lop-sided nature of the narrative has a tendency to skew our perception.*


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

MontytheMighty said:


> Presumably, the traitor Warhounds outnumber the loyalist Warhounds by a considerable margin (more than enough to compensate for the presence of a loyalist Imperator). Nevertheless a dozen traitor Warhounds are destroyed. Most of that number likely go down to the Imperator's defensive fire.
> 
> However, since all we get is one sentence "Audax [traitor] Titans went down...", the illusion is that the traitors steamrolled the loyalists.
> 
> ...


+Rep, I don't think anyone could have solved this thread any better, well done!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> +Rep, I don't think anyone could have solved this thread any better, well done!


Ha thanks

It's really a nitpick I have with Aaron's writing. His battles are rarely one-sided, but his descriptions usually are. It would've nice to read a few graphic descriptions of how Corinthian destroys three or four traitor Warhounds, rather than just "they went down"

In general, I enjoy his work despite this little flaw of his


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Rems said:


> It's the Worf effect. When you have to show how deadly something is you have it lay the smackdown on the toughest thing around.
> 
> For the Imperium it's the Imperator titan, for the Eldar the Avatar, for Chaos a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince.


Why is it called the Worf effect?


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

Because Star Trek established that Worf was not some to mess with. Then every time they needed to show that the villain was a real threat, Worf would get beaten by that villain. Thus the Worf effect.


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## Nazrax (Apr 23, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> CSM usually do OK in SM novels, unless they're Word Bearers
> 
> 
> The one in _Betrayer_ suffers from the illusion of going down like a chump.
> ...




Oh man, you nailed it. As soon as you said that it was like getting smacked in the face. It is so seemingly obvious now and I completely missed it, lol. I always _felt_ that there was something not quite right, I just never could see what it was. ADB is a great writer( perhaps the best BL has to offer) so I feel that I must have been either unknowingly ignoring it or just too enamored of the overall story and writing. 
Now of course everything I read from him from now on will be tainted by this wake up call and I will just not be able to see his work in the same light(hopefully not)


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

I have a back up explanation, they weren't utilizing the tactical genius of Ursarkar E. Creed. Bam.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Nazrax said:


> Oh man, you nailed it. As soon as you said that it was like getting smacked in the face. It is so seemingly obvious now and I completely missed it, lol. I always _felt_ that there was something not quite right, I just never could see what it was. ADB is a great writer( perhaps the best BL has to offer) so I feel that I must have been either unknowingly ignoring it or just too enamored of the overall story and writing.
> Now of course everything I read from him from now on will be tainted by this wake up call and I will just not be able to see his work in the same light(hopefully not)


The narrative is sort of like a camera. Aaron's prose is a pleasure to read but sometimes I wish he'd point the camera at the loyalists when they're kicking arse. If you read carefully, the loyalists in his battles almost always inflict significant casualties. Sadly, it just happens off-screen, which can be frustrating to loyalist fans.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Although I haven't read Betrayer yet, I would still find the concept of a bunch of Warhound Titans bringing down an Imperator jumping the shark... Even if its 30 working together. In Titanicus, it takes what, about two dozen Warlord Titans riskily networked together to bring down the Daes Irae Chaos Imperator... When it's already ten millennia old. I just finished Age of Darkness and in The Iron Within the only thing that stops an Imperator is having a mountain dropped on top of it.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Although I haven't read Betrayer yet, I would still find the concept of a bunch of Warhound Titans bringing down an Imperator jumping the shark... Even if its 30 working together. In Titanicus, it takes what, about two dozen Warlord Titans riskily networked together to bring down the Daes Irae Chaos Imperator... When it's already ten millennia old. I just finished Age of Darkness and in The Iron Within the only thing that stops an Imperator is having a mountain dropped on top of it.


Hmm...I was not aware of this. Does seem rather inconsistent with _Betrayer's_ take. 

However, keep in mind that the BL authours have adopted this "everything is canon/nothing is canon" attitude _a la_ "every authour's work is just a unique take on the 40K universe". I don't agree with this attitude at all. I view it as a rather lame excuse to ignore consistency but unfortunately I think it's the official stance at BL


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Although I haven't read Betrayer yet, I would still find the concept of a bunch of Warhound Titans bringing down an Imperator jumping the shark... Even if its 30 working together. In Titanicus, it takes what, about two dozen Warlord Titans riskily networked together to bring down the Daes Irae Chaos Imperator... When it's already ten millennia old. I just finished Age of Darkness and in The Iron Within the only thing that stops an Imperator is having a mountain dropped on top of it.


Wasn't the Imperator in Betrayer taken down before it could become fully active? If I recall correctly it was mentioned that if it had had time to fully charge its plasma cannon the traitors would have been wiped out in one or two shots.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Karthak said:


> Wasn't the Imperator in Betrayer taken down before it could become fully active? If I recall correctly it was mentioned that if it had had time to fully charge its plasma cannon the traitors would have been wiped out in one or two shots.


It's true. The Impeartor was still getting its main weapons online.

Still, the fact that 30 warhounds would have been capable of downing an Imperator's shields is at odds with what they had to do in _Titanticus_ in order to down that Imperator's shields.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

hailene said:


> It's true. The Impeartor was still getting its main weapons online.
> 
> Still, the fact that 30 warhounds would have been capable of downing an Imperator's shields is at odds with what they had to do in _Titanticus_ in order to down that Imperator's shields.


Unless you assume that they bring the weapons and shields on-line synchronously, then the shields wouldn't be up to full power either.... Granted, that would seem *stupid* but is it better to be protected but unable to fire, or have limited protection and firepower?


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