# Primarch's responses to the Heresy?



## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

What do you think the individual Primarch's responses were, based on their character? It wasn't as simple as 'Horus is wrong, Emperor is right', surely. Each Primarch was unique in character so that makes me think they all had their own thoughts on the rebellion. For Dorn, I get the impression that it was a duty to defend against Horus no matter what his personal thoughts. And for Russ, it was purely loyalty it seems, considering they had already bloodied themselves for the Emperor in the past... Other Primarchs?

k:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Well I mean the loyalists stayed loyal out of a sense of loyalty (isn't that a useful sentence). But for the most part their reaction seems to be "WTF is Horus/other traitor Primarch doing!?!"


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

I'd imagine Alpahrus and Konrad would have done it out of a sense that they can now do what they wanted, rather then be pushed around by the Emperor.

I thought for Dorn it would have been that AND he can finally test Perturabo.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Mindlessness said:


> I'd imagine Alpahrus and Konrad would have done it out of a sense that they can now do what they wanted, rather then be pushed around by the Emperor.
> 
> I thought for Dorn it would have been that AND he can finally test Perturabo.


Eh, I'd disagree with the part about Alpharius. The Alpha Legion was never told to stop what they were doing by the Emperor, it was all the other Primarchs(minus Horus) who thought what they were doing was wrong. The AL was loyal even as they joined Horus, though what happened to their loyalties in the years afterward is still up for debate.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Thats confusing. I know they joined to prove themselves against fellow space marines, and they like the Night Lords, dispise chaos. But still loyal during the Heresy is strange.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Mindlessness said:


> I'd imagine Alpahrus and Konrad would have done it out of a sense that they can now do what they wanted, rather then be pushed around by the Emperor.


That statement makes more sense for Angron more than the two you mentioned. In Ravens Flight Corax even made the assumption that what angron got out of betraying the emp was freedom from restraint.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Konrad still didn't want the shackles of the emperor on him. I'm sure Cruze wanted to sow terror and fight battles the way he wanted, rather than the emperors.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> "WTF is Horus/other traitor Primarch doing!?!"


This.

The Primarchs (generally) were not stupid, the majority of them must have attempted to apply reason to Horus's rebellion. But in the series we havn't really seen anything apart from: "I don't believe it!", "Rawwwr! I'm going to kill him!", or something along those lines.

Primarchs like Guilliman or Sanguinius must have attempted to justify Horus's rebellion to themselves. It would be interesting to see how they attempted such a feat.



Mindlessness said:


> Thats confusing. I know they joined to prove themselves against fellow space marines, and they like the Night Lords, dispise chaos. But still loyal during the Heresy is strange.


You sound like you havn't read _Legion_.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Not since 08' I'm re-reading the whole series as we speak, good sir. :grin:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Mindlessness said:


> Konrad still didn't want the shackles of the emperor on him. I'm sure Cruze wanted to sow terror and fight battles the way he wanted, rather than the emperors.


Except that Night Haunter explictedly believes that his way and the Emperors are the same. It's not creative differences leading to the split, it's a distinct lack of respect given to Curze that sends him over the edge. His rebellion seems to be more of a tantrum and clearly marks the point where his mind began to deteriorate badly. He loses his purpose in the rebellion becoming an agent of terror, rather than justice. It is only in his eventual assassination that Curze reclaims his purpose and proves (at least in his mind) that the Emperor is just as bad as he is. He didn't want the freedom to act, he wanted the Emperor to recognize his actions.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Yeah thats what I mean, how interesting it would be to see the Primarchs apply some reason to the whole situation. Thats what the Heresy doesn't really go into as much. We don't really have any sign of how the Primarchs would break it down and think of reasons. 

Its also interesting because some like Gulliman and others like Corax will have little understanding of chaos in the terms that Magnus or Lorgar would. So therefore their reasoning will be more of a hard-facts nature. I.e they will see Horus' jealously at maybe Dorn for his praetorians? Or the fact he wasn't Emperor. Even though thats a main reason Horus turned we know its due to a great deal of persuasion and deal-making with the Chaos Powers. 

And would the Loyalists have seen that all the traitor Primarchs were following Horus out of loyalty to him or would they see them as an individual traitors each as bad as each other? Thats the feeling I get from the books, that therE is a general 'ultimate hate' for Horus, more than the rest.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

If anything I would say Magnus and Lorgar misunderstood Chaos the most out of their brothers. The former thought Chaos was altruistic at first and that he could control it and the latter thought they want to protect humanity.

inb4 'but is chaos really _bad_ '


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> Thats what the Heresy doesn't really go into as much. We don't really have any sign of how the Primarchs would break it down and think of reasons.


To be fair we also haven't had very much from the perspective of the loyalist Primarchs and what we have had has been mostly 'heat of the moment' type stuff.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I really don't think Dorns relationship with Perturabo would have anything to do with his loyalty staying firm to the Emperor, he's not that kind of personality, the same cant be said for Perturabo however. That and Perturabo wasnt even a known traitor when Dorn decided to remain loyal. Though for Dorn, much like most of the other primarchs, it wasn't even a conscious decision really, such was their loyalty and love for the Emperor that they didn't even consider joining Horus.

I'm personally looking forward to Sanguinius the most, not only would Horus betrayal be hard for him being as close as they were, but Horus even sent him to his death at Signus, something I'm hoping very much that Counter explores in Fear to Tread.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Well in Flight of the Einstein (I think it is) Keeler tells Garro that they broke a brothers heart when they told Dorn about Horus.
I think it would have been a similar response from Sanguinius seeing how close they were.
The rest I think it would be shock, and anger like has been said.


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## Callistarius (Aug 17, 2010)

In regards Sanguinius, I believe he would have thought he might be able to redeem his brother Horus. Codex:AoD (p20) shows him (as well as having the power of prophesy) as being an altruist - he joined the Great Crusade for "a better life for all mankind and an end to the strife brought on by the collapse of human civilisation at the end of the Dark Age of Technology." 
That kind of visionary/altruist would at least try to redeem his brother, not just go all Hulk Smash. After his attempts were rebuffed, however, would be a different story...


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

The thing is for some primarchs, I don't think it was so much of a "what is Horus doing?" so much as a "how can we deal with this?"

For example, Magnus found out Horus was going to betray the imperium and instead of going "whats he doing or why is he doing this" he thought "how can I stop him" and I find it hard to believe that several other primarchs would not have thought similarly, especially those not close to Horus. The Khan comes to mind, as of yet I have no prior knowledge of him being overly close to any of his brothers, aside from the small fact that he and Sanguinius helped Magnus create the first librarium. But thats about it.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

I think Perturabo's response would be the one that interests me the most as there is very little written about him or his reasons for actually joining the heresy (And the fact I am rather biased towards the IW:biggrin.

What would his reasons be? Could it be to do with the massacre on Olympia where he might've lost control of himself because of the daemonic hammer Horus gave him manipulated his emotions and when he came around regret flooded in because of the murder of his people by the hands of his legion? and he knew that the Emperor could not forgive him for what he had done so he felt that he had no choice but to join Horus to protect his legion.

Or maybe Perturabo was just an introverted and sick bastard that felt he can finally "let loose" in the Heresy and his first call of action was the killing of his people. To sort of excercise his newfound, twisted "freedom".

I would prefer my first reason but I sort of don't care as long as I get an IW book and it is written well (I would personally like ADB to write it) and we also get to finally see Perturabo's true character then I would be the happiest man on earth.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Callistarius said:


> In regards Sanguinius, I believe he would have thought he might be able to redeem his brother Horus. Codex:AoD (p20) shows him (as well as having the power of prophesy) as being an altruist - he joined the Great Crusade for "a better life for all mankind and an end to the strife brought on by the collapse of human civilisation at the end of the Dark Age of Technology."
> That kind of visionary/altruist would at least try to redeem his brother, not just go all Hulk Smash. After his attempts were rebuffed, however, would be a different story...



Whilst i see what your saying about Sanguinius personality, I can't see even someone like him thinking he could redeem Horus after he deliberatly sent him to die. Again i'd like to see how Sanguinius deals with the way Horus sent him to his death.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm guessing the "Rawrrr, I'm gonna kill him" was Russ's response. Curze didn't throw any "tantrum" or anything so juvenile. Again it seems people can't understand his motivations.Curze saw the Imperium being built on idealistic bullshit that would eventually lead to corruption and betrayal........ before the heresy occured. The idea that worlds would be compliant out of benevolence he saw as iditotic and weakness of an inexcusable kind. He rebelled because he saw the Imperium becoming as corrupt and decadent as it was now. Yes, he saw himself starting to become the monster he fought and so according to his code he knew he should be killed. The thing is instead of honorable combat or a trial by jury the Imperium sent assassins. He knew that tactics like these though originally tried with Horus (Nemesis), was adopted again to avoid much bloodshed. The light of the Imperium was a facade. The heresy showed the truth of the Emperor's Imperium.


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## Callistarius (Aug 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst i see what your saying about Sanguinius personality, I can't see even someone like him thinking he could redeem Horus after he deliberatly sent him to die. Again i'd like to see how Sanguinius deals with the way Horus sent him to his death.


I'd forgotten that he didn't know prior. He may, initially, have thought that being sent was just some kind of mistake, like an intelligence screwup. Sanguinius seemed to have a driving personality goal of redemption & things being made better, thats why I thought he'd try to redeem Horus (perhaps he'd even try later - kinda like Luke with Vader in ep VI).

However, if he determined that Horus did in fact intentionally try to kill Sanguinius and the BAs, the collective noun "a rage of angels" would seem entirely appropriate.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

lions response seemed to be "Yay! maybe now i'll get to be in charge. Here perturabo, have all the guns. vote for me!"


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst i see what your saying about Sanguinius personality, I can't see even someone like him thinking he could redeem Horus after he deliberatly sent him to die.


The Emperor seems to have thought he could redeem Horus and Sanguinius is likely one of his most caring sons (and has a deep bond with Horus). I could easily see him trying, or at least considering, to redeem Horus (even if only through death).



Deadeye776 said:


> Curze didn't throw any "tantrum" or anything so juvenile. Again it seems people can't understand his motivations.


Assuming this is directed as me, I understand his motivations. What you have to see though is that those motivations don't mesh with his actions. What he says he's doing and what he's actually doing are not the same. His argument is illogical and contradictory, being both 'the Imperium is idealistic bs' and 'the Imperium is corrupt and monsterous'. His own behaviour is illogical and contradictory. That's why I called it a tantrum, he's pissed off and he's not going to take it anymore, damn the consequences. The rebellion of the Night Lords is not the measured, reasoned betrayal of the WB or Horus, it's the aggressive venting of a confused and abused man. It's a tantrum (an emotional outburst), writ large.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

How is idealism and corruption mutually exclusive and/or illogical and contradictory?

After all, was the Emperor not the exact same - the nepotism over elevating Horus to the role of Warmaster is completely nonsensical when the brothers were essentially equal - each little quirk making one better than the other at a particular task. Surely granting the one son over the other an official title and role on such a scale (How pissed off are you when parents prefer your own brother over you, especially when you've done the same?) would engender jealousies that even notoriously magnanimous primarchs like Vulkan, Fulgrim and the Khan were unable to ignore.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Vaz said:


> How is idealism and corruption mutually exclusive and/or illogical and contradictory?


My point was that Night Haunter's accussations were illogical because he was accusing them of being both ordered and corrupt, of being idealistic and monsterous. That's not to say that there isn't some good points in what he's saying (I personally agree with his position) just that he isn't reasoning it through very well, because he's pissed off (throwing a tantrum) and letting his anger cloud his judgement.



> After all, was the Emperor not the exact same - the nepotism over elevating Horus to the role of Warmaster is completely nonsensical when the brothers were essentially equal - each little quirk making one better than the other at a particular task. Surely granting the one son over the other an official title and role on such a scale (How pissed off are you when parents prefer your own brother over you, especially when you've done the same?) would engender jealousies that even notoriously magnanimous primarchs like Vulkan, Fulgrim and the Khan were unable to ignore.


By all the evidence we have Horus really is the best to lead them. Note that I didn't say he was the best, but the best leader. Others may have been better fighters, better tactians, etc but Horus was the best diplomat, the leader. This is just another example of the Emperor treating the Primarchs as warriors and not as sons. And most of the Primarchs did get over it, including notably hostile ones like Russ. Perhaps this wasn't the right decision but it certainly wasn't illogical.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Emperor seems to have thought he could redeem Horus and Sanguinius is likely one of his most caring sons (and has a deep bond with Horus). I could easily see him trying, or at least considering, to redeem Horus (even if only through death).


Whilst it's obviously not a given, an Imperial Fist in _Deliverance Lost_ seems to believe Sanguinius will be enraged by Horus betrayal, going so far as to bet that he will be the one to kill Horus, with Dorn even calling Sanguinius the 'Angel of Death'


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