# Horus Heresy: Master of Mankind by Aaron Dembski-Bowden



## Lord of the Night

Thought i'd repost this, from ADB himself on B&C talking about the role of the Emperor and a bit about his next HH novel.



ADB said:


> For what it's worth, I'd never do a novel from the Emperor's point of view. I'm probably the most... conservative (little C) of the team. That's not a criticism of the other guys - especially Dan, who is plainly the least conservative in terms of lore changes - but as a personal angle, I don't like to make that many huge revelations and I change as little of the lore as I can. I don't like to alter Legions' famous roles or positions. Changing stuff and going for revelations makes for some hugely popular novels and some of the coolest moments in the series, but it's not my style and I'm too stubborn to change. I like to show more detail of a famous event, or show that same event from another character's point of view. As far as I'm concerned, that's the main part of my mandate. That, at least for the Heresy, is a big part of my job.
> 
> Yes, there'll be some changes, alterations, updates and so on, but I'm of the mind that the lore has rocked for 25 years already, and it's the lore that got us all into the 40K setting. I can tell it in my voice without wanting to change things too drastically. Not because I don't have ideas, and not because I think all changes are evil - it's purely that in terms of the Heresy, I want to write the stuff I've loved for two decades, no differently from how many comic writers aspire to, maybe one day, get to be the in-house writer for Spider-Man or Batman. You work hard to contribute to the famous part of the mythos.
> 
> So that's why I don't change much, but I do put it in my (writing) voice and see things on the ground level through the eyes of various characters who we may not have known much about before. In Betrayer, f'rex, the World Eaters are the World Eaters, Angron's lore is Angron's lore, but I tried to show how it felt for him to return home, how he felt about abandoning his home in the first place, and how it felt to mutilate yourself to emulate your primarch, with why you'd actually consider do it. Simialrly, The First Heretic has no real revelations. Everything "factual" in it was already in the series or mentioned in the lore, but we saw some of it through different eyes, or a major event was reshaped a little to make more sense. Lorgar, for example, changing everything in his life (including his Legion's tremendous sense of shame and bitterness) was previously based on a conversation - a simple chat - that happened off-screen. That's just not convincing. So we had A Legion Kneeling. That's about the biggest change I can think of, and compared to Legion changes on the scale of the Space Wolves, the Ultramarines at Calth, the Alpha Legion, and various others, it's not much of a change at all. But I don't want to get bogged down in specifics; I'm just trying to make a general point.
> 
> It's the Emperor. If something's mentioned about him in the lore, it'll be fair game to include in Master of Mankind. The big man himself has a lot of apparent inconsistencies that need justifying and vindicating, but a book from his POV where he walks around apologising or justifying all his decisions would be a thin veneer over a pointless story. I don't want to see inside his head. I don't care what he's thinking, or why. I don't think we deserve to know, or that we could understand it if we did know.
> 
> What I care about is his impact on the nascent and emergent Imperium, his impact on his sons, and what it's like to be one of those nearby him. What's it like to fight alongside the Emperor of Mankind? What's it like to see shadows and suggestions of his arcane/alchemical/magical/mechanical plots, schemes, and plans? What's it like to have a conversation with him? What would he say? Would you hear what he's really saying, or would your mind filter it into something comprehensible on a mortal level?
> 
> This is a man that was almost strangled by an ork, yet whose corpse is powerful enough to scream psychically for ten thousand years and cut a blade of light through the Warp itself. This a man who has seen eras begin and end; cultures rise and fall; who has conquered the cradle-world with techno-barbarians and then conquered the galaxy with supersoldiers constructed with technology reclaimed from a near-forgotten Golden Age by implanting certain aspects that same technology into children and adolescents. He has lied to his sons, and acted in ways that - to all intents and purposes - look like the worst father ever imaginable. He's made decisions that, to us, look like raw madness given the capabilities of the beings he was trying to deceive. Telling the most psychic creature in the galaxy (except himself) "Hey, Magnus, leave the Warp alone now."
> 
> And so on.
> 
> Like I said, I don't care about seeing things from his point of view. He's the Emperor. His point of view will never enter into things when it's me setting pen to paper, or fingers to keys. What I'm interested in is how others interpret his presence, and how they interpret what they believe is his point of view. I'm interested in how others see him, and what he chooses to share with them. What it's like to live in the Age of the Emperor, and fight at his side. People who - hopefully - see the logic in his decisions, or at least accept it, rather than being wholly mystified by them. A little context, a little light shone on the ignorant, rather than essays of explanation.
> 
> If the novel ends up vindicating or justifying a few of his decisions, then that's great. If it raises a few more questions while answering several others, then that's even better.


Sounds freakin' epic.


LotN


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## Nacho libre

this guy is amazing.


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## Vitarus

He's a clown.


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## Lord of the Night

Vitarus said:


> He's a clown.


Doesn't mean he isn't amazing.


LotN


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## Vitarus

Dead? Blue?


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## Lord of the Night

Vitarus said:


> Dead? Blue?


He's an amazing frozen zombie clown.


LotN


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## Tawa

Vitarus said:


> Dead? Blue?


Don't worry, I was paying attention :laugh:


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## Vitarus

Tawa said:


> Don't worry, I was paying attention :laugh:


Thank you! :biggrin: Perhaps my first post should have included: (See what I did there?)


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## nioveratus

This book can't come soon enough..


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## Garrak

Agreed.

However I'm going to have to wait several months once it comes out since I only buy the mass market paperbacks (otherwise the series won't properly fit into the shelf it's on) so yeah. I'm still waiting on Vulkan Lives, Unremembered Empire, Scars and Vengeful Spirit (the last two will be out next year I expect). Sigh.


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## Tawa

Vitarus said:


> Thank you! :biggrin: Perhaps my first post should have included: (See what I did there?)


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## HamsterExAstris

Garrak said:


> However I'm going to have to wait several months once it comes out since I only buy the mass market paperbacks (otherwise the series won't properly fit into the shelf it's on) so yeah. I'm still waiting on Vulkan Lives, Unremembered Empire, Scars and Vengeful Spirit (the last two will be out next year I expect). Sigh.


_Scars_ will probably be around November of this year, with Vengeful Spirit around February 2015.


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## Angel of Blood

Vitarus said:


> He's a clown.


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## Lord of the Night

It's a reference? Oh.



Vitarus said:


> He's a clown.













LotN


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## Angel of Blood

Really?.......Really???


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## gen.ahab

Lord of the Night said:


> It's a reference? Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN












Dead.Blue.Clown was (is?) his username on this site. 

As far as the book goes, it sounds like it's going to be a fucking blast.


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## forkmaster

This supports the theory that the stories he has written often is hint at the main character in question and how he thinks of the Emperor. Lorgar thinks of him as _the first heretic_. Angron thinks of him as a _betrayer_. So it would seem this is a perfect title on the novel as it will be from the loyalist point of view.


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## Lord of the Night

gen.ahab said:


> Dead.Blue.Clown was (is?) his username on this site.
> 
> As far as the book goes, it sounds like it's going to be a fucking blast.


Is that it?? I thought it was a pop-culture reference that went over my head, not a nod to his forum handle. I got that right away, Angel saying he got the reference though made me think it was more than that.


LotN


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## Vitarus

Just Dead.Blue.Clown. I'll leave my sparkling wit at home from now on.


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## pookie9121

Garrak said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However I'm going to have to wait several months once it comes out since I only buy the mass market paperbacks (otherwise the series won't properly fit into the shelf it's on) so yeah. I'm still waiting on Vulkan Lives, Unremembered Empire, Scars and Vengeful Spirit (the last two will be out next year I expect). Sigh.


I am in the same boat. We have to wait 9 months after the hardbacks come out but its ok. I've got a lot of other stuff to read. 

Cheers,
Erik


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Vitarus said:


> Just Dead.Blue.Clown. I'll leave my sparkling wit at home from now on.


Teehee!


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## Mossy Toes

Official seal of approval: now included.


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## Vitarus




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## Brobaddon

Can't honestly wait for this. Was it said if the novel is going to be limited edition only or not? Eh, probably too early to know anyway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

LordOftheNight said:


> Can't honestly wait for this. Was it said if the novel is going to be limited edition only or not? Eh, probably too early to know anyway.


No, it'll be a 'normal' HH novel.


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## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, it'll be a 'normal' HH novel.


...and it can't come soon enough!


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## Stig'sPrimarchCousin

MontytheMighty said:


> ...and it can't come soon enough!


Truer words have never been spoken!


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## MontytheMighty

I've heard that a Blood Angel will be one of the main characters in MoM

Does anyone have any idea why that is?


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## piemelke

because the BA urgently need some real love


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## Anakwanar

Oh yes - they indeed need some love. I hope after the creation of such a great character as Sevatar - our beloved Dead.Blue.Clown will show us his death, and will not left it to our imagination :grin:


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## Svartmetall

Can't fucking wait to read this.

And his Black Legion stuff too...


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## piemelke

depends, except for the FT short ADB his portrayal of BA is not above par, I hope he can create a BA that has a solid character as he has done with several other characters, Sevatar and talos being the prominent example, that does not mean the BA should be invincible or anything like that, just more than the 2-D portraits we have seen so far from David and James (although I prefer David and found the recent blood drinker description (Guy I think) also not that bad).


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

piemelke said:


> depends, except for the FT short ADB his portrayal of BA is not above par


Isn't that literally the only time I've portrayed them? Apart from in the Death Company dataslate, maybe, where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

I mean, there's a fight in _Soul Hunter_, I guess? Where:

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them.

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.


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## Kreuger

It's nice to have the provenance of the topic on hand to settle these questions. =)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Isn't that literally the only time I've portrayed them? Apart from in the Death Company dataslate, maybe, where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.
> 
> I mean, there's a fight in _Soul Hunter_, I guess? Where:
> 
> - The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.
> 
> - A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them.
> 
> - The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.


I get frustrated for you that you have to constantly explain yourself, especially because what you're explaining is so darn obvious! :scratchhead:


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## Phoebus

I think there was a misunderstanding here. piemelke's opinion - right, wrong, or indifferent - was about how well Aaron writes the Blood Angels. I'm not sure it had anything to do with how well the Blood Angels acquit themselves in battle in his works.

Which is to say, Aaron's first paragraph cuts to the heart of the matter (it's kind of odd to arrive at a man's contribution to something when he's only offered a single sampling). I don't think he should have ever bothered to defend his record of impartiality/objectivity in how he handles factions winning/losing. There's zero need for it. The people he would need to defend himself against are not looking for objectivity.


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## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I mean, there's a fight in _Soul Hunter_, I guess? Where:
> - A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them.
> 
> - The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.


I don't think anyone takes issue with how well you portray the character of the Blood Angels. That is to say...even if an entire novel by you is about my favourite faction being slaughtered, I can still count on your prose to be vividly descriptive and wholly engaging 

piemelke is likely referring to how well the BA fare against the NL in _Soul Hunter_. I've read over the BA vs. NL engagement more than once...because my first impression was that the BA died like chumps, and I realise that first impressions can be wrong. 

Well...upon more careful reading, I've come to the realisation that although the BA do inflict major damage, almost all of that damage is inflicted off-screen...whereas when Nigh Lords butcher (like literally butcher) Blood Angels, it occurs on screen (i.e. it's described in graphic detail). 

This is what I call the "camera-bias effect". The Night Lords could be losing the war, but if you keep the camera on First Claw (who generally win their small-scale squad vs. squad encounters), it gives the false impression that the NL as a whole are doing better than they actually are. 

I remember in _Soul Hunter_, it's clearly stated that the Blood Angels "butcher" hundreds of crew and "almost thirty of our [NL] warriors". That's like one line though...it's easily missed. In the NL series, your battles aren't biased in favour of the Night Lords, but your camera is "biased". I'm not even saying that's a bad thing because First Claw consists of the novel's main protagonists and it's only natural for the camera to follow them. You don't have to include a bunch of graphic descriptions of how the Blood Angels "butcher" almost thirty Night Lords just to please BA fans...but you might wanna consider the value of throwing in 1 or 2. My 2 cents.


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## Phoebus

I just don't even understand how this is even an issue for anyone.

If a book is about the Night Lords, no one should be shocked if the focus is on them (this is not directed at you, Monty). No one should be shocked if the Night Lords win, or if their Pyrrhic victory makes them look badass, or of they lose with a lot of style points. The important thing is that they win, lose, or draw in a way that makes sense within the greater context of the setting. And, well, that it happens in a well-written story with engaging characters, etc.

Meaning:

1. Someone is upset that the last Blood Angel turned tail and ran. The lack of any other Blood Angels fiction easily identifiable as being by Aaron Dembski-Bowden leads them to believe he doesn't right them well. Alright, that's at least a conversation starter.

2. Someone is upset that a boarding party of Blood Angels didn't do well against an enemy that's almost certainly more experienced, has prepared the battlefield, and doesn't fight fair. That someone just doesn't have a leg to stand on - in my humble opinion.

It's not like Talos, Uzas, and company formed a bolter line, vowed to not take one step back against the Blood Angels, and selflessly faced down the enemy so that their loyal serfs could escape to safety (or whatever)! :wink:


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## MontytheMighty

Phoebus said:


> No one should be shocked if the Night Lords win, or if their Pyrrhic victory makes them look badass, or of *they lose with a lot of style points*.


It is the Night Lords series...not the "Night Lords get mercilessly slaughtered by the mighty Blood Angels" series

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say they lose with a lot of style points. Losing with a lot of style points can easily be misinterpreted as winning. First Claw is an elite squad compared to your average nameless, faceless squad of "mook" marines. They could be doing great but for all we know, other NL squads are being ripped apart. 

The only suggestion I could offer is that showing a few NL squads being ripped apart might serve to drive home the "Pyrrhic Victory" aspect. I think it would also make novels with Chaos/Traitor protagonists more appealing to loyalist fans as there'd be some graphic scenes highlighting what deadly enemies the loyalists are.

This isn't a gripe as I think the Night Lords series is finely written and some of the best "pro-Traitor" fiction BL has to offer. I can't really think of anything better to recommend actually. You like Traitors...the NL series is for you. I'm simply giving my opinion from the perspective of a loyalist fan.


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## Phoebus

To me, it just comes down to how well the scenes are actually written. I don't need or even want a scene showing my favorite faction doing well just for the sake of catering to my tastes. That's pandering. If the characters/factions are written well enough, that's good enough.

Take me, for instance. I like the Dark Angels. I don't care if the Dark Angels always win. I just want them done justice. I want them to be honorable but flawed, with leaders and champions who are knightly but sinister. I want them to be driven to capture the Fallen, but to not be stupid about it. I want them to have to make tragic decisions in the name of the Hunt, not do stupid shit just to emphasize how important secrecy or catching Fallen is to them. Where their portrayal in conduct is concerned, I don't care whether they win or lose (the story dictates that), but whether a very simple rule is followed: each Space Marine is a superhuman soldier roughly analogous to (and I'm kind of joking here, but you get what I'm saying) Captain America wearing 70s-era Iron Man suits, minus the flight and built-in weapons. They should be portrayed as such. They should be shown fighting as such, and dying as such.


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## MontytheMighty

Phoebus said:


> I don't need or even want a scene showing my favorite faction doing well just for the sake of catering to my tastes. That's pandering.


The thing is...the Blood Angels did do well. We know they did well based on the Night Lords' post-battle casualty assessment. Why not show the BA doing well? I would much prefer to be shown how well the Blood Angels did during the battle than to be told that they did well after the battle. 

If you're writing a scene as a "Pyrrhic Victory" for the NL, you might want to actually show damage being inflicted by the BA. What I mean by "show" is to actually describe it in as much detail as you're describing the damage being inflicted by the NL. A passing mention of the casualties caused by the BA isn't as powerful as actually showing the BA matching and defeating the NL in an engagement or two. 

I really don't think that I'm advocating pandering. Pandering would be to have one side do well _against logic_, simply for the sake of appeasing that side's fans. I'm not advocating that. 

I'm not Aaron's editor. He could totally ignore my opinion and still be one of the best authours working for BL. Everyone praises him and rightfully so...but this is my attempt at some constructive criticism, which other people might disagree with.


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## piemelke

Phoebus said:


> I think there was a misunderstanding here. piemelke's opinion - right, wrong, or indifferent - was about how well Aaron writes the Blood Angels. I'm not sure it had anything to do with how well the Blood Angels acquit themselves in battle in his works.


indeed thanks, for me a good presentation of BA does not require them winning or dying glorious, it would just have to be solid 3-D characterisation with specifics that could be attributed to them being sons of Sanguinus, making them different from red ultramarines. I would just like to seen an author (ADB being a good candidate) to relieve us from the 2-D portraits offered by previous authors. E.g. ADB gave the NL , the WB (although I also like the work of Anthony ) and the WE a soul, Dan the same for UM and the SW. We can understand them better now, what drives them, why they are who they are... I would just like to see this happening also for other legions, being a BA fan, certainly also for the BA as I feel James could have done better (euphemism). 
the same goes (as far as I go, but since it is a forum I can give my opinion, else why have a forum) for other legions, e.g. RG 
I am not saying ADB cannot do this or presents the BA as whimps, rather that he (or another author) still needs a book to do so.


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## MontytheMighty

piemelke said:


> I am not saying ADB cannot do this or presents the BA as whimps, rather that he (or another author) still needs a book to do so.


You should rest easy then as ADB's Flesh Tearers are already leagues above Swallow's BA. 

There's no reason to believe he won't be able to do the same for the BA once he gets his hands on them. I believe Master of Mankind will feature a BA main protagonist? ADB could you kindly confirm?


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## piemelke

MontytheMighty said:


> You should rest easy then as ADB's Flesh Tearers are already leagues above Swallow's BA.
> 
> There's no reason to believe he won't be able to do the same for the BA once he gets his hands on them. I believe Master of Mankind will feature a BA main protagonist? ADB could you kindly confirm?


Hi Monty
regarding the FT you are right as I also mention in the first message,
I fully agree that he (or another writer) is able to do the same for the BA, however it still needs to be done,
kumbaya


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