# Imperial guard Doctrines



## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

i don't know what to say about them some are useful some are not , some are free while some arn't . One thing i would like to know are some of them worth it and if they are removed in their upcoming release will they be missed?


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

I will miss them. I like having +4 Svs. I like having a fully deep-striking army.

However, what will be in the new Guard codex? We don't know yet.


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

I heard they're replacing doctrines with platoon upgrades (the whole platoon may take carapace armour/deep strike/chimeras for x points), but that's just a rumour.

I'll miss the +1 WS. Few guard players actually want to charge into CC, but I have more powerfists than you can shake a stick at in my army, so that extra WS really helps.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Hmm... that doesn't sound too good. That means I'd have to pay to use Deep Strike. Perhaps they'll lower overall model costs.

Maybe you can still use Hardened Fighters?


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

honestly did not use em much. i liked lots of cheep troops.

but i did like how it flavored guard armies. a force using carpice was vastly diffrent than one without it.

I fear this will no longer be true.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

I'll miss them keenly.

My Guard don't play like the big piles of massed infantry backed by tanks.

Sharpshooters, Light Infantry... Tossed in Rough Riders, Ogryns and Ratlings.

Very much an irregular force.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> I'll miss them keenly.
> 
> My Guard don't play like the big piles of massed infantry backed by tanks.
> 
> ...


if the platoon upgrades are the way that the new dex goes, I think that you will still be able to do this, as it isn't that far off of what you could do with the main dex as it has been since the first IG dex


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

The rumors I've heard speak of "artillery" and "lots of new tank variants"

They can keep them, if such proves to be true.

And if the platoon doctrines prove to be special character-reliant, as Space Marine Chapter tactics are?

Yeah.

Not happy.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

i get the feeling they would probably just put all of the rstricted troops in as normal stuff for everyone . Ive alwasy prefered cheap guard too but i think they will keep drop troops as its sort of one of those things a lot of guard players make use of but i think it may now come as a price


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

You know guys, you don't _have_ to play by the new Guard Dex if you don't like it. It's unrealistic too. Think of it this way

OKAY! All you Drop Trooper regiments, Light Infantry regiments, pre-blackpowder regiments, Death World regiments, Mechanized regiments, yeah, all you; GTFO or become generic! 

No. Just, simply, no.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Well now my list can take say carpace on some units, and then lgiht infantry on others.

so now my list has more variety but every list will be more the same.

I liked the rule that it had to apply to the entire list.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't think that has been confirmed though.

But it'd make more sense. Wouldn't a world raise all kinds or regiments? Like today's contemporary armies.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Keep your logic away from my 40K :grin:


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

I won't stop until Imperial Guard squads get fire teams, I tell you, fire teams!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

KellysGrenadier said:


> I won't stop until Imperial Guard squads get fire teams, I tell you, fire teams!


you mean combat squads?


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Nope. Fire teams, consisting of half the complete squad size, that move independently, and are paid for when you buy a squad.

Example, you have a squad of Guardsmen. The squad consists of 2 Fire Teams of 5 men that have a 12'' unit cohesion bubble. Fire Teams are not in Conscript Squads. That'd be cool.

If that's the same as the Marine unit then cool.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

it is essentially the same thing, without a 12 inch coherency requirement.

While it is a neat idea from a fluff/real world representation perspective, I think that this would not only serve to defeat the canon regarding how imperial guard fights( as a whole, as opposed to specialist regiments), and serve to feed vp's to opponents, as guardsmen are fragile, and would be eaten alive when taken that piecemeal.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Mayhaps, but because Imperial Guard regiments are so varied, the only standardization is the Lasgun, flak armour, and organization. Even that isn't always so standard. 

And, if they get whomped, well, chances are they would if they were a 10-man squad or 5 man Fire Team. It's up to the player to decide how they maneuver. Maybe the victorious player would get the Victor Points if both Fire Teams were destroyed/falling back.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

ulitmately, it is like iron warriors players wanting bassies, it is something that another army has, and should stay that way, especially since it would remove one of the advantages of playing that army.

also, consider that the real world force that uses fire teams are elite forces,such as the U.S. marine corps,which are much better trained than imperial guardsmen, the majority of which are not even given training equivalent to basic combat training, let alone the advanced individual training that supplements basic. The real world forces, such as the marines are trained beyond that, and are constantly training, which allows them to use such methods of warfare.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

But it wouldn't really remove any advantages from the Marines, would it? Both armies (the Marines and Guard) would just have the advantage of Combat Squads/Fire Teams. The Marines wouldn't really lose anything.

And I think erroneous to say that 'Imperial Guardsmen do not receive the quality training of *contemporary military outfit here*'. 

We have plenty of examples to suggest that many regiments are little more than militia. Conscripts come to mind. The narrator says in the PS2 video game WH40k: Fire Warrior; 'The Imperial Guard are sometimes little more than armed rabble'.

However we also have plenty of examples of the Guard as a highly trained and disciplined force. Case and point the Tanith 1st, who have been depicted to have a masterful grasp of tactics. 

This is why I suggest, should fire teams make an appearance (and I really hope they do), that only standard Infantry Squads, Veterans, and Kasrkin/Stormtrooper squads should have the ability, and not conscripts.


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## Indoctrinator (Jun 6, 2008)

I hope they don't get rid of grenadiers, I like my storm troopers counting as troops, especially with 5th edition.


Indoctrinator


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

KellysGrenadier said:


> But it wouldn't really remove any advantages from the Marines, would it? Both armies (the Marines and Guard) would just have the advantage of Combat Squads/Fire Teams. The Marines wouldn't really lose anything.
> 
> And I think erroneous to say that 'Imperial Guardsmen do not receive the quality training of *contemporary military outfit here*'.
> 
> ...


 you are kidding, right? if imperial guard were to have combat squads, the advantage of having all of the inexpensive heavy weapons would be magnified, as only half of the squad would need to remain stationary to use the heavy weapon, and the other half would be free to move about as they wish.

you are using the exception to the rule as an example of the rule. The tanith are an elite force, made up by veterans. the average imperial guard regiment is made up of troops that have had only a few weeks of training, and the training has focused on which end of the lasgun is the end you point at the enemy. 
conscripts have almost no training, and that is why they are so lousy.

this idea is the classic example of wishing your army had things that another had. It seems nice, but it ends up with two results, either every armyends up with the exact same things, and the difference is paint, or every army ends up as a collection of overpowered ubermunchkins toting nukejockey tactical weapons systems, clad in urban-land-battleship armor, and accompanied by their bikini-clad cheerleader girlfriends.

The game is better served by accepting the flaws of your army as a good thing, one that helps give it character, and the limitations that those flaws create as a challenge, and not as a hardship.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Well there's also the Volpone Bluebloods, the Cadian regiments, the Catachan regiments, the Terrax Guard, and any grenadier regiment that are an example of the more professional Imperial Guard regiments.

And while the Tanith troops are veterans now, they were green at the time of their Founding. Their training helped them survive the numerous wars they fought.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

KellysGrenadier said:


> Well there's also the Volpone Bluebloods, the Cadian regiments, the Catachan regiments, the Terrax Guard, and any grenadier regiment that are an example of the more professional Imperial Guard regiments.
> 
> And while the Tanith troops are veterans now, they were green at the time of their Founding. Their training helped them survive the numerous wars they fought.


Again those regiments are the exception not the rule, that is why they are exceptional regiments. the catachan and cadian regiments recieve training equivalent to modern day BCT and AIT, but not the training required to use a specialized skillset such as fire teams. the vast majority(90%) of regiments recieve very little in the way of training.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Please, where does it say this? Where is it the rule to say that the Guard aren't thoroughly trained and drilled? Why is that the rule? Why can't it easily be said that all Guard regiments are trained professionally, but their enemies to be far more nefarious than such methods to combat as effectively? How does it make sens that the Guard can make use of mechanized formations and drop troop regiments, but can't grasp the idea of fire teams?

I know that a lot of Guard regiments -- I don't know about the majority -- are little more than armed militia. But there's a difference between conscripts and professionally trained Infantry Squads, which is reflected in fluff and their stat lines.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

I dont buy that an Imperial Guard officer would allow a unit to go into combat untrained. Especially if said unit is covering his ass. Hell even conscripts get some training by are by no means special forces grade.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

pchandler43 said:


> I dont buy that an Imperial Guard officer would allow a unit to go into combat untrained. Especially if said unit is covering his ass. Hell even conscripts get some training by are by no means special forces grade.


the training they get is equivalent to the training that soldiers got during wwI and WWII, which is about six weeks for a standard trooper and more for specialists. currently, a typical soldier is given at least fourteen weeks of training and on the job training before they are deployed. imperial guardsmen are often trained as they are en route to a warzone. 

conscrpits don't get training, that is why they are conscripts, they are meat for the grinder.

imperial guard regiments (three or so battalions) are huge, a modern battalion is around 500 personnel, staff and auxiliary personnel included.
an imperial guard company is at least three times that, and there are at least four companies to a battalion, and three to five battalions in a regiment.
this means that at a minimum an imperial guard regiment is nine times as large as a modern force of the same strategic level. so yeah the commander would not care if his troops were trained, as long as they fought.


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## pchandler43 (Nov 28, 2008)

Need to be trained on how to use the equipment, could give a 10 year old a M2 50 cal machine gun and say "You're in the Army now....go that way!" doesnt mean he'd be able to operate it without training.

If you're speaking of actual training time for soldiers, trust me, I already know...I am one.
Hell for awhile the Iraqi National Guard were conscript and they still recieved training.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Most of the guard in the fluff could be consider cadian equivelent.

Cadians live for war, they are trained since they can walk to fight, the conscripts are kids. the troops fully trained combat ready men....the vets are rare.

So i would not say most guard are untrained, thats the pdf.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> the training they get is equivalent to the training that soldiers got during wwI and WWII, which is about six weeks for a standard trooper and more for specialists.


Uh... no.

Cadians know they're going into the Guard from BIRTH.
Death Korps... yeah.
Catachans _grow up_ on a Death World- ditto for Valhallans. While that isn't _formal_ training, they pick up useful skills just to survive.
Armageddon has been at war for so long you can't tell me its troops are under-trained. The Hive Gang militias, sure, but not the actual Steel Legion.
The Tallarn are Fremen knock-offs.


And not ONE of those is Dan Abnett's pets, nor a home-brew Regiment.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> *the training they get is equivalent to the training that soldiers got during wwI and WWII, which is about six weeks for a standard trooper and more for specialists. currently, a typical soldier is given at least fourteen weeks of training and on the job training before they are deployed. imperial guardsmen are often trained as they are en route to a warzone. *
> 
> conscrpits don't get training, that is why they are conscripts, they are meat for the grinder.
> 
> ...



this. Wartime training in all wars up till Desert Storm had about 6 weeks of basic training. We get plenty of examples in Armour of Contempt, Guns of Tanith, and the Eisenhorn trilogy about on-the-job training guardsmen receive en route to a warzone. Keep in mind, unless these guys are being invaded, they are going to have a few weeks in transit.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> Uh... no.
> 
> Cadians know they're going into the Guard from BIRTH.
> Death Korps... yeah.
> ...


how about a regiment that isn't a famous regiment.

using the exceptions to the rule only proves my point.

Every regiment you cite are V E T E R A N S 

they are not the vast uncounted masses that are given a prayer book, flak armor and a commisar, and then told to move forward.
conscripts are even less trained than that.

As for you could have a ten year old man a M2, that is exactly what a conscript squad is, look at their ws , bs, and ld that is a completely untrained soldier, bereft of any training other than basic instructions on how to operate his equipment. They do not have marksmanship training, only instructions on which end to point at the enemy.

no matter how badly people want to think that the IG is trained to the level of modern, real-world military, they, with a very few exceptions, are most definitely not. there are too many things that members of the modern military have to be proficient at for that to be true. 

Even the cadians are only equal to real world military in terms of marksmanship. their tactics are still reminiscent of WWI style mass charges. this is due to the simple fact that the imperial guard is an organization so massive that to require the standards that the modern military has would be impossible.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> how about a regiment that isn't a famous regiment.
> 
> using the exceptions to the rule only proves my point.


Funny, then, that the Cadians are considered the model for "standard" Imperial Guard.



> no matter how badly people want to think that the IG is trained to the level of modern, real-world military, they, with a very few exceptions, are most definitely not. there are too many things that members of the modern military have to be proficient at for that to be true.


And this is based upon what, exactly? A copy of the entirely-for-humor "Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer?"

Because it sounds to me more like you're putting forth your opinion as fact, particularly when you consider the amount of evidence to the *contrary* in any number of sources.

So I have to ask, what is it that offends you so much about the notion?

Certainly, given the vast size of the Imperial Guard, sweeping generalizations of any kind are hard to support, but the fact, is people think the Guard suck because "everyone else is better."

Might just be that the best-trained solider around can't quite stand up to, say, a biologically engineered killer species...

Now, their TACTICS are also varied, but the truth is, yes, they're archaic.

And Space Marines fight with friggin' SWORDS instead of calling close-in air support.

What of it?


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