# So how many Sons of Horus survived the Legion Wars?



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

So I've read the short _Extinction_ by ADB and I've heard that many of the Sons of Horus died on Maleum at their last strongpoint prior to the rise of the Black Legion. But how many of them could have survivied since then? This picture hints at them fighting back the Emperor's Children after they stole Horus body.


----------



## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

I'm about to say that they lost a third of the remaining forces, but that's entirely wild guess.

Between the great scouring, the rampant mutations and the killing between brothers, and the eventual defection, I think they should be for about to 30,000 to 50,000 son of horus left.

And don't forget that recruitement wasn't really that good, since chtonia was presumably one of the first world to be wiped out in the Horus Heresy and the logistic and formation of new marines would have touch an all-time low.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Doom wolf said:


> I'm about to say that they lost a third of the remaining forces, but that's entirely wild guess.
> 
> Between the great scouring, the rampant mutations and the killing between brothers, and the eventual defection, I think they should be for about to 30,000 to 50,000 son of horus left.


I'd guess it's significantly less than that, if we're talking about actual Legionnaires who took part in the GC/Battle of Terra.

I mean, these were forces that purged all of their loyalist-leaning members, then mounted a frontal assault on one of the most heavily defended planets in the galaxy, _lost_, then were hounded back to the Eye of Terror, and _then_ got into a civil war with their fellow traitors.

If 10% of the Sons of Horus survived the Heresy, it would probably be only because of plot armor, lol.

The Traitor Legions would have been shattered by the end of the Heresy. Which makes sense, given that they've been able to do fuck-all since then over the last 10,000 years.


----------



## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

my personal estimate based on mostly Talon of Horus and the general background would be less than 5000 surviving Sons of Horus when the black legion was founded (and many of them didn't join Abandon at all. We really don't have any official numbers though.


----------



## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> I'd guess it's significantly less than that, if we're talking about actual Legionnaires who took part in the GC/Battle of Terra.
> 
> I mean, these were forces that purged all of their loyalist-leaning members, then mounted a frontal assault on one of the most heavily defended planets in the galaxy, _lost_, then were hounded back to the Eye of Terror, and _then_ got into a civil war with their fellow traitors.
> 
> ...


Aaaaw, you made a point, but I was trying to be optimist, here.:biggrin:


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The Traitor Legions would have been shattered by the end of the Heresy. Which makes sense, given that they've been able to do fuck-all since then over the last 10,000 years.


Other than all the worlds, legions of soldiers, and fleets they have laid to waste. Care to elaborate, 'cause I always love hearing people back up this one.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

The Great Crusade conquered an entire galaxy in 200 years. 13 Black Crusades have conquered...


That's the reality of the 40K Universe a lot of fans don't understand. The Fall to Chaos is a long, endless road of bitterness and futility. It's not about taking sides, or fanboyism. It's literally about looking at the simple facts laid out by the universe. Chaos promised Horus and his followers power and glory, and what they got was 10,000 years of imprisonment in the Eye of Terror in exchange for fleeting moments of glory and the role as pawns in an endless war. Heck, even the Macharian Crusade brought in a thousand new worlds in seven years.

"all the worlds, legions of soldiers, and fleets they have laid to waste" are tiny drops in a giant bucket of fuck all. Meanwhile, they always end up pretty much right where they began. Trapped in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. 

But, in my opinion, that should be the _appeal_ of the Chaos factions in 40K, not some kind of failure that would make one look down upon the army for. If Chaos was successful, 40K would be boring.


----------



## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

I always thought the SoH didnt take part in the actual siege of the imperial palace but were being held back in reserve? (some what foolishly it would seem).


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The Great Crusade conquered an entire galaxy in 200 years. 13 Black Crusades have conquered...
> 
> 
> That's the reality of the 40K Universe a lot of fans don't understand. The Fall to Chaos is a long, endless road of bitterness and futility. It's not about taking sides, or fanboyism. It's literally about looking at the simple facts laid out by the universe. Chaos promised Horus and his followers power and glory, and what they got was 10,000 years of imprisonment in the Eye of Terror in exchange for fleeting moments of glory and the role as pawns in an endless war. Heck, even the Macharian Crusade brought in a thousand new worlds in seven years.
> ...



And how many Black Crusades had the goal to conquer the galaxy? None of what I know. It is like compare athletes that run 100 meter with those who completed in long jump and say the later are all failed cause they didn't run 100 meter.


----------



## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

thebinman said:


> I always thought the SoH didnt take part in the actual siege of the imperial palace but were being held back in reserve? (some what foolishly it would seem).


No, absolutely not.

The first reason would be that Horus wanted glory and some kind of immortality, how could he be achieving that by letting his guys sitting in rear ? 

The second reason is that the main things that the other legion were complaining about is that the Son of Horus were giving up as soon as they knew their Primarchs was gone.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Moriouce said:


> And how many Black Crusades had the goal to conquer the galaxy? None of what I know. It is like compare athletes that run 100 meter with those who completed in long jump and say the later are all failed cause they didn't run 100 meter.


Ahh yes. Abaddon has been playing the long game by choice, rather than necessity.

:taunt: Come on now. We're all adults here.


----------



## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Ahh yes. Abaddon has been playing the long game by choice, rather than necessity.
> 
> :taunt: Come on now. We're all adults here.


Yup, that's the most contrived retcon GW pulled those last years...


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Ahh yes. Abaddon has been playing the long game by choice, rather than necessity.
> 
> Come on now. We're all adults here.


Lets just run down the list here real quick:

1st Black Crusade - traitor forces attack thousands of worlds and Abaddon obtains the daemon blade Drach'nyen. Though the attempt at wiping out so many worlds would imply bringing the Imperium to its knee's (and failing to do that), theres little overall goal or planning in this one beyond slaughter and get the daemon sword.

2nd Black Crusade - this one is a full fledged failure, Abaddon attempted to wipe out the defences of Cadia and break fleets through the Cadian gate. After a five year siege his forces were pushed back. No contest here, he failed. (Though take note that his aim was the destruction of Cadia which would allow his forces to leave the eye freely.)

3rd Black Crusade - Abaddon tricks a greater daemon into attacking Cadia so he could attack a shrineworld. In the end he attacks said world, desecrates the tomb of an imperial saint, and the daemon on Cadia slaughters millions. Not seeing topple the Imperium as the objective here.

4th Black Crusade - Abaddon again uses an attacl on Cadia as a distraction so he can take the bulk of his forces elsewhere. An absolutely bat-shit insane tactical decision (go slaughter the populace wholesale and give our enemies time to regroup) leads to the crusades failure. This was an attempt to topple the Imperium and failed.

5th Black Crusade - Abaddon sets a trap which results in the wiping out of two chapters to a man. Chaos win, and not topple the Imperium.

6th Black Crusade - Abaddon launches a crusade against the Imperium so he can betray and kill a rival. Can anyone find topple the Imperium in that one?

7th Black Crusade - Abaddon leads an army of Khorne berzerkers and massacres Blood Angel forces, various chaos fleets break out of the eye and harass Imperial worlds before going back to the eye. Abaddons goal doesn't appear to be topple the Imperium here.

8th Black Crusade - Abaddon goes on a crusade to appease Tzeentch and gain the gods favour. No topple the Imperium here, also he succeeds.

9th Black Crusade - Abaddon aims to bleed Imperial navy fleets dry, over the course of nearly twenty years he does just that. Can't find much about toppling the Imperium here.

10th Black Crusade - Abaddon leads his Black Legion and the Iron Warriors to the Iron Hands homeworld and lays siege to their planet in the name of Perterabo. Same idea as number 9.

11th Black Crusade - Abaddon enslaves a daemon in an effort to find another route out of the eye, ends up fighting a three way war against the Imperium and a WAAAGH. Maybe the original intention was topple the Imperium, but that seems to have changed once the three way war began.

12th Black Crusade - The Gothic war, this is a straight up no in toppling the Imperium. Abaddon had an entire sector cut off from the Imperium so that he could capture six blackstone fortresses, each capable of destroying a planet while two could destabilize a star and destroy a system, in addition to testing out the planet killer. Abaddon left the Gothic sector with his planet killer tested and at least one blackstone fortress under his control.

13th Black Crusade - Retconned to have not occurred yet, but going with the old fluff we have Abaddon gaining a foothold on Cadia, space around the planet contested (allowing chaos free reign to get out of the eye), and Typhus plague has crippled elements of the segmentum fleet. The Segmentum's defences are severely weakened, which appeared to be the goal.


So yeah, not all of his Black Crusades have been topple the Imperium. In fact, discounting number 13, a full eight or nine were not aimed at toppling the Imperium. Meaning they were in fact the Despoiler plying the long game (and for the record, information regarding the Black Crusades comes from a variety of sources including the 3.5 codex and at least one liber chaotica.)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Regarding the Black Crusades - the latest lore more than implies that the first 12 Black Crusades were effectively mere precursors to the 13th. Across ten millennia Abaddon was consolidating his power and support in preparation for the 13th Black Crusade. The 13th is _the_ one. The end of the road. What everything has been leading to.


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Case closed it seems.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Regarding the Black Crusades - the latest lore more than implies that the first 12 Black Crusades were effectively mere precursors to the 13th.


I know, but you know it bothers me when anyone tries to claim the Black Crusades are either all failures or have just been mountains of failure. Hell a good bit of what I know about them is from what you've said to prove others wrong in the past.:biggrin:


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Did my thread just turn into a Failbbadon-discussion? I can't believe people still hold on to that fact. All the latest lore, the author ADB who has GW behind and his latest novel Talon of Horus points in the immidiate direction.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Did my thread just turn into a Failbbadon-discussion? I can't believe people still hold on to that fact. All the latest lore, the author ADB who has GW behind and his latest novel Talon of Horus points in the immidiate direction.


I take it you don't visit 4chan much?

Never underestimate a dedicated fan's stubborn refusal to accept any lore that doesn't fit with their narrow interpretation of the 40k universe.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Gree said:


> I take it you don't visit 4chan much?
> 
> Never underestimate a dedicated fan's stubborn refusal to accept any lore that doesn't fit with their narrow interpretation of the 40k universe.


I am very well aware of it. Yes I know that is the downside with all hobbies and fan-cultures.


----------

