# Asdrubael Vect vs Ursarkar E. Creed



## Gold170492 (Feb 12, 2008)

We have all seen the "Damn You Creed!!!!!" pics and have heard how Vect just kick's ass, so my question is thus. 

Who would win?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Vect would naturally be superior in a physical fight between the two, but he will be killed long before the fight occurs due to a baneblade being concealed aboard the Dais of Destruction. 

'Wait, how did that get there?! It must have taken a tactical ge-' 

...

'CREEEEED!'


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

This is a tough Q, they're both my favorite of their respective armies 

Vect would win in CC, but would be killed long before he got there by the vast ranks of guardsmen he'd have to chop his way through.


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

Vect, i mean if Creed is gonna have his army with him, why wouldn't vect?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Vect is Crazy Prepared and Creed is a Tactical Genius. If Creed attacks Vect (or Vect manipulates him into attacking him) then Vect will win. If Vect attacks Creed he will win because he wouldn't attack if he couldn't. Vect's forces are fast enough to escape if he thinks he'll lose and Creed isn't capable of forcing Vect to fight him (he has nothing Vect wants that he can't get elsewhere for less).


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

Huh, I think this is easy enough. Both are good at what they do, only Vect is an eldar and thus about 12 times older (I don't know, older anyway), more experienced and intelligent. Vect wins.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Creed would invite him to a pool party with hot dark eldar chicks and then...








Case closed.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

In a straightup 1 on 1 fight I'd say Vect takes it pretty handily, Eldar have significant physical advantages over humans.

Now if it came down to a battle, then we'd have a CREEEEED!


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I have a feeling, that if an engagement of forces was well, forced, Creed would win due to superior numbers. Vecht does command a pretty large force of Dark Eldar, but not enough to challenge the swarms of the Imperial Guard. Besides, if Vecht is forced into a confrontation like that, he's already lost. He should be smarter than that!

In a straight-up fight, either with relatively equal forces, or just themselves, Vecht would win both times I believe. He has thousands of years on Creed, Tactical Genius be damned, and his troops are fast and lethal enough to take advantage of that experience.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

He did not see it coming, and he can see the future. Well, how could Vect see it coming?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

If Creed can keep Abbadon from winning with his Black Crusade, then What Chance does Vect have? Seriously what can DE throw at them that Chaos couldnt? Now 1 on 1 is a whole different story, Vect for pwn.



Edit.: Fix the Black CRUSADES to Black CRUSADE. Sorry if I suk at typing.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Shooting Vect doesn't really do anything as his Dais of Destruction has a very very powerful forcefield around it that keeps him from harm while he sits there doing nothing.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Lol i cant keep the image of Creed sneaking a titan up on Vect out of my head... its too comical.

"Vect, i must say, these scones are delicious"
"yeas... they have been kept over night in the blood of the... "
Imperator titan pokes head above Vects Back hedge
"Is that an Imperial Titan?"
What?! Of course not. The sign says Slavery delivery"
"but today is Tuesday. they only deliver on thursdays"
Imperator Titan atomizes Vect with his Plasma destructor thingie. 
"well theres your problem!" Creed shouts... "CREEEEEEED!"


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> If Creed can keep Abbadon from winning with his Black Crusades, then What Chance does Vect have? Seriously what can DE throw at them that Chaos couldnt? Now 1 on 1 is a whole different story, Vect for pwn.


Firstly Creed was only present during the 13th Black Crusade. And that resulted in a minor Chaos victory, so that kinda throws what you just said out the window!

And secondly Abaddon isn't exactly a tactical genius. 

Vect against Creed? In any situation Vect triumphs hands down.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly Creed was only present during the 13th Black Crusade. And that resulted in a minor Chaos victory, so that kinda throws what you just said out the window!
> 
> And secondly Abaddon isn't exactly a tactical genius.
> 
> Vect against Creed? In any situation Vect triumphs hands down.


Oh give me a break, Like any idiot knows Creed is only arount the 13th. I swear to god some people read so much into what is typed. My Bad. Disregard all I said. Also u saying Abbaddon not a Tatical savy commander? Really? Seriously? I guess he was Horus right hand man cause of his personality. I guess him leading what remaine of Sons of Horus inot the biggest Legion in the Eye of Terror is a fluke? I cant belive you posted that. Granted Vect is on another lvl in tactical and better than Creed in a game of chess, but Crred still is a GREAT tactitician and has WAY more resources, manpower, and tools at his disposal. DE arnt cloning themselves cause they have a population problem.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

"I guess he was Horus right hand man cause of his personality" - Warlock in Training


Actually more to do with his amazing charades skills.


2bh in terms of the game the ability to make 12 lascannons per turn twinlinked would probably own Mr Vect pretty well?!

In the fluff I envisage vect popping through a warp portal behind creed and shishkebabing him. (I say this as a guard player)

There most likely a baneblade lurking in a nearby bush however


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Oh give me a break, Like any idiot knows Creed is only arount the 13th. I swear to god some people read so much into what is typed. My Bad. Disregard all I said.


You said he had combated Abaddon's crusades, I merely pointed out that he had only challenged one - one which had resulted in a Chaos victory. I don't see the problem.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also u saying Abbaddon not a Tatical savy commander? Really? Seriously? I guess he was Horus right hand man cause of his personality.


He was First Captain because he was a fantastic warrior. He has never been noted as a tactical genius, the Heresy series alone shows this.



Warlock in Training said:


> I guess him leading what remaine of Sons of Horus inot the biggest Legion in the Eye of Terror is a fluke?


No, not at all. He rose to command of the Black Legion through his legacy as First Captain, Mournival member and heir to Horus. His possession of the Talon of Horus. His will to keep the Legion intact in worship of Horus and then through his destruction of Horus' body and radical change in his Legion's philosophy. Also through sheer might and his capabilities as a warlord. But most of all via the favour of the gods. None of that really perscribes him as a tactical genius.

And I never said he was tactically inept, merely not a tactical genius. 



Warlock in Training said:


> I cant belive you posted that. Granted Vect is on another lvl in tactical and better than Creed in a game of chess, but Crred still is a GREAT tactitician and has WAY more resources, manpower, and tools at his disposal. DE arnt cloning themselves cause they have a population problem.


Why can't you believe that I posted what? That Vect would clearly trump Creed? Seems fairly clear-cut to me.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why can't you believe that I posted what? That Vect would clearly trump Creed? Seems fairly clear-cut to me.


Well its pretty obvious fluff wise that Vect would beat Creed but its the whole comical thing were people always choose Creed for his awesome character, like the people that say Chuck Norris or Mr.T are immortal and can win against everything :laugh:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You said he had combated Abaddon's crusades, I merely pointed out that he had only challenged one - one which had resulted in a Chaos victory. I don't see the problem.
> 
> And if you look at my first post I corrected that issue. Also Chaos didnt win. They took the planet and lost the Space. Hows that a win exactly?
> 
> ...


No. This is what Im saying, Vect and his Entire Kabald vs Creed and ALL of Cadia. Vect wins easily how? He would trump Terra if he wins that.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> No. This is what Im saying, Vect and his Entire Kabald vs Creed and ALL of Cadia. Vect wins easily how? He would trump Terra if he wins that.


The thing is that Vect would never just launch an all out attack against Cadia, for the obvious reasons that he would lose and has no reason to. Vect will only ever attack if he feels he will win. That's the kind of guy he is. Now, Creed has no ability to force Vect to engage him; nothing Vect wants and no way to take the fight to him. This means that in any engagement between the two Vect will be setting the terms and those terms will favour him so heavily as to completely negate Creed's ability to pull a Titan out of a pool.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly Creed was only present during the 13th Black Crusade. And that resulted in a minor Chaos victory, so that kinda throws what you just said out the window!
> 
> And secondly Abaddon isn't exactly a tactical genius.
> 
> Vect against Creed? In any situation Vect triumphs hands down.


Finally a sane answer!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> And if you look at my first post I corrected that issue. Also Chaos didnt win. They took the planet and lost the Space. Hows that a win exactly?


I suggest you read the Eye of Terror Campaign conclusion. The 13th Black Crusade resulted in a _"minor Chaos victory"._ Im just quoting the facts.



Warlock in Training said:


> Where did I ever say he was a tatical genious? Hes good enough to lead thats for sure or he be dead and Legion Shattered.


I know you didn't. I was merely pointing it out.



Warlock in Training said:


> No. This is what Im saying, Vect and his Entire Kabald vs Creed and ALL of Cadia. Vect wins easily how? He would trump Terra if he wins that.


As _MEQinc_ said, Vect would never attack Cadia (without assurance of victory) and Creed has no capability to challenge Vect or nothing Vect wants to lure him into battle. 

Creed is a tactical genius and did very well to hold off Abaddon's Crusade for as long as he did. But Vect is just in a whole different league, to the point where some now speculate he is challenging himself (in a manner) because he tires of success...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah someone whose been around before the fall of the Eldar > a human commander just by virtue of age and the experience/wisdom that comes with it alone.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Vect would win.

Dark Eldar Archons especially the likes of Vect lay down such extravegent and complicated plans they take hundreds even thousands of years to complete. So if Vect did decide to take Creed out by the time his plans are complete Creed would have died of old age!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

effigy22 said:


> Vect would win.
> 
> Dark Eldar Archons especially the likes of Vect lay down such extravegent and complicated plans they take hundreds even thousands of years to complete. So if Vect did decide to take Creed out by the time his plans are complete Creed would have died of old age!


Now this I can stand by.

The whole Vect wouldnt attack unless he can win and Creed cant attack him is a cop out for this disscussion. I belive the whole point of A vs. B disscussion is as in Vect is put in a match where he has no choice but to fight Creed no? 1 on 1 Vect wins. Creed and all he has vs Vect and all he has leads to Vect being crush by the numbers of Creed. Now if this disscussion is Vect wnated to take Out Creed, would it happen? Ofcourse it would, Vect lives forever it seems and Creed is a old man. Vect wins via time.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/Cred.jpg

what is this, i don't even?

But i think Vect would win. The DE always only attack with surprise, and only when they have a massive advantage and... "where did that baneblade come from?"
assassins CREEEEEEEED!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Now this I can stand by.
> 
> The whole Vect wouldnt attack unless he can win and Creed cant attack him is a cop out for this disscussion. I belive the whole point of A vs. B disscussion is as in Vect is put in a match where he has no choice but to fight Creed no? 1 on 1 Vect wins. Creed and all he has vs Vect and all he has leads to Vect being crush by the numbers of Creed. Now if this disscussion is Vect wnated to take Out Creed, would it happen? Ofcourse it would, Vect lives forever it seems and Creed is a old man. Vect wins via time.


You make it sound like Creed has the entire Imperium at his disposal which he clearly does not.

And it's not like the IG or any unaugmented human, including Cadian troops, are that efficient in comparison to the warriors of alien races.

A Dark Eldar _grunt _is worth like twenty or more Imperial Guardsmen in terms of efficiency, durability, speed, experience, morale, etc hence the creation of the Astartes to even the odds.

And as I mentioned, while Creed is perhaps a brilliant tactician, he in no way compares to Vect who, I must stress this again, witnessed the fall of the Eldar which makes him older than the Emperor and humanity (if I haven't messed up my timeline) and thus he knows a lot in just about anything from war to baking cookies.

So no Vect doesn't just win because of his immorality.

Vect's Kabal/entirety of the Dark Eldar vs the whole Imperium is another topic all together. But like Chaos, I don't think it's in Vect's best interests to wipe out humanity who to the Dark Eldar, are easy ways of maintaining their immorality and keeping Slaanesh at bay vs enslaving Orks, Tyranids, etc. loltau


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Darkblade I think that you have mucked up the timeline (not that it undermines your argument)

So far as I am aware the fall of the Eldar was around m.29 as it was the creation of the eye of terror that calmed the warp storms isolating Terra effectively launching the Great Crusade

as I say this does not in fact undermine your argument; 10,000 odd years is a lot of experience


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah I figured as much. *hangs head in shame


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And as I mentioned, while Creed is perhaps a brilliant tactician, he in no way compares to Vect who, I must stress this again, witnessed the fall of the Eldar which makes him older than the Emperor and humanity (if I haven't messed up my timeline) and thus he knows a lot in just about anything from war to baking cookies.


Older than the Emperor? You sure about that? I have for a long time been under the impression that the Emperor would timeline vise be alive right now, in the 21st century.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> which makes him older than the Emperor and humanity (if I haven't messed up my timeline)





demonictalkin56 said:


> Darkblade I think that you have mucked up the timeline (not that it undermines your argument)






Malus Darkblade said:


> Yeah I figured as much. *hangs head in shame





Doelago said:


> Older than the Emperor? You sure about that? I have for a long time been under the impression that the Emperor would timeline vise be alive right now, in the 21st century.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Creed and all he has vs Vect and all he has leads to Vect being crush by the numbers of Creed.


Im not so sure it would be that clear-cut. The Dark Eldar are a numerous sub-species of Eldar, far outnumbering the Craftworlders and Exodites. With their vastly superior technology and warriors, and being led by an individual whose minds complexity has been likened to the Maze of Tzeentch would probably trump Creed and his billions of Guard in my opinion.



demonictalkin56 said:


> So far as I am aware the fall of the Eldar was around m.29


M31. According to the new Dark Eldar codex.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

ah cool so the eldar fell and the emperor said "mwha ha ha" and went on his intergalactic jolly?

I thought he had to go through all the Primarch creation and what-not first; it's almost like he knew....


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> The whole Vect wouldnt attack unless he can win and Creed cant attack him is a cop out for this disscussion. I belive the whole point of A vs. B disscussion is as in Vect is put in a match where he has no choice but to fight Creed no?'


How is it a cop-out to suggest that Vect's ability to out-maneuver Creed at the most basic level gives him an advantage? If Vect is put in a match where he has no choice but to fight Creed then someone (someone with skills beyond those of Creed or indeed any mortal) has done some serious planning to screw with Vect. And I still think his abilities and the superior mobility and tech of the DE give him more than a fighting chance in this scenario. 



> Creed and all he has vs Vect and all he has leads to Vect being crush by the numbers of Creed.


Vect controls the entirety of the Dark Eldar race, which as CotE has mentioned is quite numerous. All Creed technically controls is the Cadian Shock-troops. Leaving aside the fact that it is actually possible that this leaves Vect with a numbers advantage (unlikely but without actual numbers we can't say for sure) Vect has superior mobility (Creed doesn't control the Naval forces required to move his force off-world nor does he have anything that can match the DE for sheer speed), superior tech (some of the rarer stuff the DE have access to is straight crazy) and superior troops (a kabalite being easily superior to a grunt IG while wyches and Incubi are easily the equal of Kasrkin).So I'd say Vect's odds are still pretty dang good.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not so sure it would be that clear-cut. The Dark Eldar are a numerous sub-species of Eldar, far outnumbering the Craftworlders and Exodites. With their vastly superior technology and warriors, and being led by an individual whose minds complexity has been likened to the Maze of Tzeentch would probably trump Creed and his billions of Guard in my opinion.


I was under the impreesion that DE numbers were as large as Craftworlds numbers. The Eldar Exodites and Craftworld Eldar had the advantage of escaping destruction were DE is what very little is left of the Fall Survivors that fled last second into the Webway. I have the Old DE dex and all the Eldar ones, but only skim the new DE Dex, is this in the new one?



MEQinc said:


> How is it a cop-out to suggest that Vect's ability to out-maneuver Creed at the most basic level gives him an advantage? If Vect is put in a match where he has no choice but to fight Creed then someone (someone with skills beyond those of Creed or indeed any mortal) has done some serious planning to screw with Vect. And I still think his abilities and the superior mobility and tech of the DE give him more than a fighting chance in this scenario.


Im saying in a VS match with nothing to go on but Vect vs. Creed then Im looking at it in different Scenarios. 
1) Vect 1 on 1 with Creed. Vect Wins.
2) Vect and Creed fight with no Prep with all they have. IMO Creed.
3) Vect vs Creed with Prep for Vect. Vect EZ.
4) Vect vs Creed with Prep for Creed. Creed thanks to his Imperial Titans popping out of mailed pakages, or likely waiting in ambush by a Webway.
5) Prep for both Sides. Vect still wins this.

So only saying Vect wins due to prep is only one of the many types of scenarios that I can think of. Vect wins IMO 3 of the five but Creed still wins 2 of these.



MEQinc said:


> Vect controls the entirety of the Dark Eldar race, which as CotE has mentioned is quite numerous. All Creed technically controls is the Cadian Shock-troops. Leaving aside the fact that it is actually possible that this leaves Vect with a numbers advantage (unlikely but without actual numbers we can't say for sure) Vect has superior mobility (Creed doesn't control the Naval forces required to move his force off-world nor does he have anything that can match the DE for sheer speed), superior tech (some of the rarer stuff the DE have access to is straight crazy) and superior troops (a kabalite being easily superior to a grunt IG while wyches and Incubi are easily the equal of Kasrkin).So I'd say Vect's odds are still pretty dang good.


First off from Fluff I read is that Vect controls and ONLY controls the Black Heart. Theres ALOT of other DE Cults, Kabalds, and Corsairs that hate Vect and dont work with him. As for Tech/Speed DE have the better deal, but IG win victories thru Numbers and good enough Tech to blow up anything the DE have.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Creed wins purely on the fact of the ridiculous (yet awesome) meme of being able to hide a titan behind anywhere (apparently even from behind a emptied clip of a boltgun?!?). Hell for Vect, after he supposedly is about to deliver the killing blow against Creed's Cadian forces, finds a Warlord Titan hiding behind his command chair or what Creed did to Abbadon (look down at pic  )










In all seriousness though yeah Vect would probably win. A human noted for tactical strategy vs. a guy who lived since the fall of the eldar and is numero uno of the Dark Eldar, one of the most dog-eat-dog race of the galaxy? Yeah, no competition.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I was under the impreesion that DE numbers were as large as Craftworlds numbers. The Eldar Exodites and Craftworld Eldar had the advantage of escaping destruction were DE is what very little is left of the Fall Survivors that fled last second into the Webway. I have the Old DE dex and all the Eldar ones, but only skim the new DE Dex, is this in the new one?


The majority of the Eldar around the time of the fall were in the hedonistic cults if I am not mistaken.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I was under the impreesion that DE numbers were as large as Craftworlds numbers. The Eldar Exodites and Craftworld Eldar had the advantage of escaping destruction were DE is what very little is left of the Fall Survivors that fled last second into the Webway. I have the Old DE dex and all the Eldar ones, but only skim the new DE Dex, is this in the new one?


Yeah the new codex has altered a few things. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Im saying in a VS match with nothing to go on but Vect vs. Creed then Im looking at it in different Scenarios.
> 1) Vect 1 on 1 with Creed. Vect Wins.
> 2) Vect and Creed fight with no Prep with all they have. IMO Creed.
> 3) Vect vs Creed with Prep for Vect. Vect EZ.
> ...


The above is where the difference in opinion is coming from. If you get chance check out the new codex, Vect really is amazing. And trumps Creed in _all_ aspects.



Warlock in Training said:


> First off from Fluff I read is that Vect controls and ONLY controls the Black Heart. Theres ALOT of other DE Cults, Kabalds, and Corsairs that hate Vect and dont work with him. As for Tech/Speed DE have the better deal, but IG win victories thru Numbers and good enough Tech to blow up anything the DE have.


He does, but he effectively controls the entire Dark Eldar faction as Lord of Commorragh.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Looks like I need to to get the new DE dex. Vect seems to have gone Super Sayain since the last Eldar Dex. Ill read in depth when I get it.


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## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

It seems that the general consensus is that vect would win easily... So perhaps a tad off topic, but on an tactical level, are there any characters that would be superior to vect on a tactical level? For example, Roboute Guilliman, whom i beleive was the greatest strategist of the primarchs.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Guilliman was so awsome that he stoled every other primarchs battle strategies and threw them in a Codex with his name written all over it.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

It is true that vect would be able to choose the place of the fight but there would be no way that he would have a numerical advantage. Worst case scenario Creed doesnt have any Titan/baneblade support.

Here is the thing though, Creed will most likely have thousands of leman russ tanks under his command and hundereds of millions of soldiers. Fluff wise that puny las gun doesnt have much trouble getting through eldar armor.

Shot for shot a las gun kills a dark eldar warrior with ease and vise verse.

The same thing happens with their skimmers vs the Russ tanks. Russ tanks can blow them to pieces but lances will treat Russ armor like butter.

In the end both commanders are quite smart, one is considered the greatest general in the imperium and the other leads a race that is known to coup. Still the Imperial guard will have waaaay more tanks and soldiers than the dark eldar. There is a reason why dark eldar raid helpless planets and dont attack armies. 

Commander vs Commander Creed wins. Single combat 90% chance vect 10% chance a bolt round finds vects head.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> It is true that vect would be able to choose the place of the fight but there would be no way that he would have a numerical advantage.


Superior mobility allows Vect to achieve local numerical superiority. He can bring the bulk of his forces to bare on a small section of Creeds forces and then disappear before even Creed can respond with the force he needs.



> Worst case scenario Creed doesnt have any Titan/baneblade support.


Worst case scenario Creed is assassinated and half his forces are dead before anyone realizes the DE have opened a portal. Oh wait, that's the most likely scenario.



> Here is the thing though, Creed will most likely have thousands of leman russ tanks under his command and hundereds of millions of soldiers. Fluff wise that puny las gun doesnt have much trouble getting through eldar armor.
> 
> Shot for shot a las gun kills a dark eldar warrior with ease and vise verse.
> 
> ...


It is much harder to maneuver that many men and tanks. The DE on the other hand have superior, faster and more mobile infantry and especially vehicles. A lasgun wielding guardsmen is no where near as deadly as a splinter rifle armed kabalite and will require numbers to achieve success. Surprised the IG has a noted tendency to deploy poorly and not even Creed can totally overcome the massive logistical problems in mobilizing a planet. 


> There is a reason why dark eldar raid helpless planets and dont attack armies.


And that reason is because it's easier, faster and more economical to do so. The DE are not afraid of anything the Imperium possesses and generally believe the humans to be nothing more than sport.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

13illfred said:


> It seems that the general consensus is that vect would win easily... So perhaps a tad off topic, but on an tactical level, are there any characters that would be superior to vect on a tactical level? For example, Roboute Guilliman, whom i beleive was the greatest strategist of the primarchs.


To find this answer, we would have to organise a game of Chess! 



Warlock in Training said:


> Guilliman was so awsome that he stoled every other primarchs battle strategies and threw them in a Codex with his name written all over it.


And their greatest students, the Ultramarines, were outwitted by the Swarmlord. :so_happy: 

Take that Calgar! :laugh:


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> And their greatest students, the Ultramarines, were outwitted by the Swarmlord. :so_happy:


That's what you get for sleeping in class, Ultramarines!


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

for the record (I think something to the lieks of this was mentioned early in the thread) Chaos has nothing on the dark eldar in terms of strategic wits at least, and enither does any human.

Vect would defintiely win for all the reasons those in support have already mentioned. It seems foolsih to believe, based on the fluff, that an imperial commander could outwit the dark eldar who went form being a slave to the ruler of Commorragh, which as someone already mentioned is a world filled with little beyond back stabbing, assassinations, and simple murder. Not only did he get there but he has stayed there so long he appears to be getting bored with the whole ordeal (according to new codex).

He would find a way to get someone right behind creed to assassinate him and even if there was a bandblade in the bush it would merely kill the assassin, Vect wouldnt do it himself. Once there great commander was gone the IG would fall even faster. There is even a cutout section in the new codex that says something similar was done to an inquisitir once. The Inquisitor was bale to foresee the coming of the DE raid and the orbital defenses seemed to cause the DE fleet a defeat as they turned to flee. But then they found the inquisitor splayed all over the room he had been in.

they may have been unsuccessful with the raid but they killed the biggest threat to them so when they come back later he wont be there to warn the populace of their arrival.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Guilliman was so awsome that he stoled every other primarchs battle strategies and threw them in a Codex with his name written all over it.


Adapting and learning new tactics is what you _do_ in war. It's a basic element of warmaking.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

whos to say Creed doesnt have a callidus assassin?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> whos to say Creed doesnt have a callidus assassin?


Would it matter? Vect has outwitted and outplayed the most cunning Dark Eldar assassins, a Callidus would prove mere sport. If that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> To find this answer, we would have to organise a game of Chess!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Niiiiice....:laugh:

Also real quick alot of the supporting argument leans to IG cant mobilise or manouver as fast as the DE in a regimant size or larger. How ever it seems alot belive the MASSIVE amount of Backstabbing, Plotting, and Assassinating DE will move as one? does that not seem flat out wrong? At least the IG are working together under Creed, Vect with all of Commoragh at his back will likely get alot of Archons wanting to be top dog. Just saying. They're both going to have mobilisation or Reinforcement issues. IG have Logistic problems, and DE have everyone not wanting to be a Team Player. Thought that was a valid point.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Also real quick alot of the supporting argument leans to IG cant mobilise or manouver as fast as the DE in a regimant size or larger. How ever it seems alot belive the MASSIVE amount of Backstabbing, Plotting, and Assassinating DE will move as one? does that not seem flat out wrong? At least the IG are working together under Creed, Vect with all of Commoragh at his back will likely get alot of Archons wanting to be top dog. Just saying. They're both going to have mobilisation or Reinforcement issues. IG have Logistic problems, and DE have everyone not wanting to be a Team Player. Thought that was a valid point.


The DE might have a fair deal of trouble getting totally organized for a battle, the thing is though that while they are organizing they're not in any danger. And once they hit the battlefeild they will act with one apparent purpose and several more hidden ones. Vect however is smart enough to remain one step ahead of all of them and as such will be able to foil their plans. This means that while the DE are infact infighting and plotting the whole time, what the Imperium will see is a concentrated and organized group.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

sorry warlock, but Creed is completely outclassed by Vect, and fluff wise, the DE completely outclass the IG in every way.

the DE have superior speed, weaponry, numbers.

the current DE dex mentions how the Dark city of commorragh is really just all the pocket dimensions all rolled into one, each dimension is as big as a craftworld. Vect, has control over, pratically EVERY DE living in commorragh. so bringing 'everything' each one could bear, it would not even be funny.

the current Book does talk about a massive influx of breeding on the DE part, but this is more due to the fact they all kill eachother and die on the battlefield all the time, so to combat this without going completely extinct, they make half-breeds which are spawned in a fraction of the time of a trueborn, the more wealthy eldar get the haemonculi to regenerate their bodies aswell (most all archons have this luxury after dieing, if they ever do) 

As to the person who was talking about haveing a ton of leman russ battletanks... even on the table top game, how many leman russ battle tanks will creed have compared to EVERY RAVAGER, VOIDRAVEN, and RAIDER that the DE race as a whole have access to. it only takes one shot from a well placed Dark lance to take out Leman russ battletanks, and even in a full on game, i bet i could field more Ravagers then you could battletanks at any level of play.

(in 6000 points, with heavy bolters, a las cannon and the battlecannon, a leman russ battletank is what, 165 points? you can field 36 in the said 6000 points. I can field, with flicker fields, 52 Ravagers.)


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

and the heavy bolters would be about useless in range and strength where as all three dark lances on each ravager wouldnt be. 36 tanks with one effective weapon against 52 ravagers with 3 effective weapons. (if they were facing each other).


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I highly doubt creed would have any units placed in a area where they could be taken advantage of by simple out maneuvering. Not to mention fluff shows that a massive dark eldar force, that ill admit was being led by a much worse commander than Vect) was beaten(also over time) by a force of only a few space marines. (which had their ship blown up so they had to fight.)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Fluff also shows that a single space marine can fight a whole horde of orks charging him, completely alone, without a helmet on, and come out unscathed. fluff wise, Space marines are pratically gods.

point is, thats SPACE MARINES, not regular joe Imperial guard who are more shown as cannon fodder then mighty unbeatable gods like the space marines.

there is also many MANY things in the fluff that shows the Space marines easily losing to the dark eldar, so one or two instances of the eldar losing due to poor leadership is needed so they do not look like gods like space marines.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Actually I always seen Eldar/DE losing to... well.... everyone Fluff wise. Only in your Codex do they ever win EZ battles. Just Saying.

Also if you play a Game of 2000 Points of IG vs DE, well the DE get OUT TANK every time. Theres a reason IG are said to have many, many, many, MANY tanks. They can field 8 Leman Russes and 6 Chimeras with Vets Squads and CCS compared to what Raiders? Raiders have 1 shot vs Battlecannons, Heavy Bolters? Multi Lasers with Heavy Bolters? Raiders are dead. 5+ save doesnt cut it. IG Leafblower almost everytime.
Game shos that.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

game has also shown that leafblower lists are far too Overpowered in their easy wins thanks to the ability to field so much without massive restrictions that DE and CE are plagued with called the FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART (and I do not mean that the IG dont follow the chart, but their army lists can easily maneuver around it, to allow 8 leman russes with 6 chimeras with vets)

Go play your leaf blower list in a non FoC but GW model restricted fight against Dark Eldar, i bet you the IG list would lose to the mass of ravagers that would magically appear in said list all sporting 3 dark lances. 

the only fluff we see outside of codex fights though, are the books, NONE of which EVER, EVER, EVER have DE as the protagonist, because of their evil ways. that plus the fact that pratically every fluff codex will talk about the positive exploits of an army, and they do not dwell on the negative.

Point is: Ig leafblower lists are pure cheeze on the tabletop, and should never have been allowed, the fact that the codex magically allows that much of... anything within the FoC, thus making the FoC pratically non existant for them, proves that no one proof reads the damn codex's at GW HQ, and no one there truly cares about balance in the game.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why the fuck is game stats and rules even playing a MINOR role in this? This is the fluff section, game rules play no part it in.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> game has also shown that leafblower lists are far too Overpowered in their easy wins thanks to the ability to field so much without massive restrictions that DE and CE are plagued with called the FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART (and I do not mean that the IG dont follow the chart, but their army lists can easily maneuver around it, to allow 8 leman russes with 6 chimeras with vets)
> 
> Go play your leaf blower list in a non FoC but GW model restricted fight against Dark Eldar, i bet you the IG list would lose to the mass of ravagers that would magically appear in said list all sporting 3 dark lances.
> 
> ...


So what your saying IG are unfair cause they're better than your DE and shouldnt represent in the game what they do in the fluff... outnumber your favorite race.... thats a sad argument.



gen.ahab said:


> Why the fuck is game stats and rules even playing a MINOR role in this? This is the fluff section, game rules play no part it in.


Thats right and every Fluff I read other than the DE dex shows DE getting beaten by everyone.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Thats right and every Fluff I read other than the DE dex shows DE getting beaten by everyone.


Thats generally because the Dark Eldar are almost always the antagonists, and the protagonists always have to win. The other codicies are not going to show the Dark Eldar trumping the race featured in the codex. You cannot seriously use that as an argument.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

There are no noteable DE victories on a grand scale because generally speaking they do not participate in warfare on that level. They are raiders and pirates.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Oh I will. Case in point is the Soul Drinkers and Word Bearer Boooks like to paint a picture of DE being sneaky, but as soon as a direct confrantation happen, its over. BTW in the Word Bearer novel the WBs had to flee the Nids and Necrons (mutiple times for Necs), and yet DE were outright beaten and devoured. So no its not because the they have to lose, alot of writers wirte them up as Pirates and Slavers more so than mighty warriors.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats generally because the Dark Eldar are almost always the antagonists, and the protagonists always have to win. The other codicies are not going to show the Dark Eldar trumping the race featured in the codex. You cannot seriously use that as an argument.



Yes he can use that as a argument, you just dont like it because it rips your argument apart. 

Dark Eldar lose often whey they fight against a organized military. There is a reason they are raiders. They use Gorilla tactics because they cant win open warfare. They dont settle because if they do they could be attacked and if they are attacked by a organized military, even the Guard, they have a great chance at losing.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> Yes he can use that as a argument, you just dont like it because it rips your argument apart.


I can tell your new here. 

Do you honestly think by _Warlock_ stating that in certain codicies and novels the Dark Eldar are defeated means that the Dark Eldar always lose in such circumstances? Don't be absurd, it hardly _"rips my argument apart."_



JelloSea said:


> Dark Eldar lose often whey they fight against a organized military. There is a reason they are raiders. They use Gorilla tactics because they cant win open warfare. They dont settle because if they do they could be attacked and if they are attacked by a organized military, even the Guard, they have a great chance at losing.


They can triumph in open warfare (against an organised military force)... easily. Not in all circumstances no, but claiming they _"cant win open warfare"_ is absurd. The reason they don't commit to open warfare very often is obvious, firstly because of the increased mortality rate (and the fate that awaits each Dark Eldar if killed), and because they have no reason to - they don't fight for territory or honour - and what resources they do require (slaves) they can easily harvest by avoiding open warfare.

Now, does this mean they are inept at open warfare or against an organised military force? Not at all. It just means that committing forces against organised militarys is pointless (in most circumstances) for the Dark Eldar.

However, if a significant Dark Eldar force came up against an organised armed force willing to resist, I would still argue that more often than not the Dark Eldar would emerge victorious. Because it means that the Dark Eldar had committed themselves aware that they would face armed resistance (therefore meaning the Dark Eldar stood a high chance of emerging victorious for the simple fact that they had committed themselves). I am not suggesting the Dark Eldar cannot be defeated, because of course they can. But more often than not this will be due to poor leadership, internal strife, or miscalculated anomalies rather than their inability to face organised resistance.

This is compounded by the fact that they have the massive advantage of being near-untouchable in the webway, and thus will generally only emerge to harvest the one resource they require (slaves), or for sport of some kind. The mere fact that their enemies cannot follow them back to Commorragh or enact pre-emptive strikes (generally speaking) means that the Dark Eldar simply do not need to committ themselves against organised resistance (unless they wish to do so for sport) simply because there is no reason whatsoever to do so. But as I said, that doesn't mean they would automatically fail if they came up against organised resistance.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

CotE its impossible to argue with warlock, hes just got a DE hate on and anyone who sides with the DE is automatically a fanboy in his mind. he just cant face the truth that the DE outthink his silly honor bound armies that fight for territory


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> I highly doubt creed would have any units placed in a area where they could be taken advantage of by simple out maneuvering.


The fact is that Creeds forces are large and spread out by necessessity. This means that units will definitely be placed in areas where they can be outfanked. This is especially true against the DE because they don't manovuer in a conventional manner. You can't tell where they're goint to come from. You could turtle around one objective, and you would definitely be able to hold it, but the DE wouldn't care as their objective is the civilians anyways. As soon as you begin to move your forces you expose them to ambushes, seperation and out flanking. This is especially true of a force facing an opponent who is faster, smaller and smarter. 

[/quote]Not to mention fluff shows that a massive dark eldar force, that ill admit was being led by a much worse commander than Vect) was beaten(also over time) by a force of only a few space marines. (which had their ship blown up so they had to fight.)[/quote]

I really hope you're not refering to that peice of crap SW-wankfest in _Tales of Heresy _though if you're not I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the story you're refering to. 

But to show the how useful using a single fluff peice as a reference is I'll point to a piece of fluff in the old DE codex where they attack a fortress guarded by the Imperial Guard and overrun it in a matter of moments. Clearly this shows that the DE can never be beaten in sieges. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Oh I will. Case in point is the Soul Drinkers and Word Bearer Boooks like to paint a picture of DE being sneaky, but as soon as a direct confrantation happen, its over. BTW in the Word Bearer novel the WBs had to flee the Nids and Necrons (mutiple times for Necs), and yet DE were outright beaten and devoured. So no its not because the they have to lose, alot of writers wirte them up as Pirates and Slavers more so than mighty warriors.


The DE were beaten in the WB novels because they encountered things for which they were not prepared. They were not prepared for Marduk (or whoever it was) plot armour or his ability to suddenly manifest a huge horde of daemons. They were not prepared to fight Space Marines in either of these novels, so they left, they weren't 'soundly beaten and devoured' they fled. It's what they do. He who lives and runs away lives to fight another day. 

Unfortunely for Creed he isn't capable of manifesting these surprises and Vect is more capable of anticipating them then the other commander.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can tell your new here.
> 
> Do you honestly think by _Warlock_ stating that in certain codicies and novels the Dark Eldar are defeated means that the Dark Eldar always lose in such circumstances? Don't be absurd, it hardly _"rips my argument apart."_


Yes dont Defend me, Im sort of the guy that always pick a flaw or likes to argue my point of view even if it doesnt matter. Like the rest of us here. 

Also (as always MOST of the time) CotE is spot on.



KhainiteAssassin said:


> CotE its impossible to argue with warlock, hes just got a DE hate on and anyone who sides with the DE is automatically a fanboy in his mind. he just cant face the truth that the DE outthink his silly honor bound armies that fight for territory


Good one Khanite, childish but good one. Im open minded and already posted out of the 5 SCENARIOS of Vect vs Creed, Vect wins 3 of them. So not only are you the "Fanboy" here but your not good at reading. De have awsomeness, and by the way I play Eldar. But you wouldnt know that cause your a blind fanboy. 



MEQinc said:


> But to show the how useful using a single fluff peice as a reference is I'll point to a piece of fluff in the old DE codex where they attack a fortress guarded by the Imperial Guard and overrun it in a matter of moments. Clearly this shows that the DE can never be beaten in sieges.


Well again every Dex paint themselves up as the baddest mofos around. Outside the dexes......



MEQinc said:


> The DE were beaten in the WB novels because they encountered things for which they were not prepared. They were not prepared for Marduk (or whoever it was) plot armour or his ability to suddenly manifest a huge horde of daemons. They were not prepared to fight Space Marines in either of these novels, so they left, they weren't 'soundly beaten and devoured' they fled. It's what they do. He who lives and runs away lives to fight another day.
> 
> Unfortunely for Creed he isn't capable of manifesting these surprises and Vect is more capable of anticipating them then the other commander.


Again shows that DE are a Prep type and good at the sneaky rout. However when face with a war of attrition or large scale battle, they crack. Too many variables for them. Also Creed has face the most Unpredictable foes in Chaos and still stands... so how is lesser than that "other commander"?


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can tell your new here.
> 
> Do you honestly think by _Warlock_ stating that in certain codicies and novels the Dark Eldar are defeated means that the Dark Eldar always lose in such circumstances? Don't be absurd, it hardly _"rips my argument apart."_
> 
> ...



You can tell im new here because guess what?!? It shows how many posts I have next to my name. It, however, does not shows how versed I am in the fluff. The fact that I own over 40 novels should show that. Did you know that? No, but did it stop you from trying to call me a noob that doesnt know what im talking about? Also no.

You have no idea what your talking about. Your trying to infer things about me when to infer you need to make a educated guess and you dont have enough knowledge about me to do that.

Even using your argument against you, I could say oh DE are bad in massive scale battles because they usually attack weak populations that cant fight back so they dont have "real" military experience. Im I saying this? No, because I know that they are experts in Gurilla warfare(which on a side note is a tactic often used by the losing force in our actual worlds history)

Fluff wise, Dark eldar would not win against a force dedicated to killing them in planet warfare... However, If the battle started in space, I would admit I would expect the DE to win as I believe their space capable ships are much better than anyone elses. Still we are not talking about fleet vs fleet battles.

The difference between you and I is simple. I see both sides of the argument, where as you only see your side and refuse even take into account the things other people say as valid. If it in anyway goes against what you believe, you cast it out as it cant possibly be correct. This will, in the end, be the cause of you to lose many arguments and is a equivalent to a child putting his fingers in his ears and shouting "LALALALALALALALALA"


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Jello, you have 40 books, thats nice, a few things get neglected in books to make them all good stories.

1. Novels rarely show a massive win for the antagonist side, without some come from behind victory, if the antagonist won there would be problems. the DE, unfortunately do not have much selling value on the protagonist side as they are villians through and through.

2. you speak of a force Dedicated to killing dark eldar, if you are so knowledgeable with the fluff, you would know that the Dark Eldar do not wittingly walk into traps, nor do they march upon an enemy that knows they are coming. occasionally they will end up within a crossfire, or miscalculate an enemies power (either in numbers or in variables not prepared for, like attacking an encampment for easy slaves and end up having to face an inquisitor with a force of grey knights passing through the sector who decide to come help) which usually results in a tactical loss and the dark eldar will retreat. 

and Gurilla warfare is used to quite a good success in our worlds history, its not used by the Losing side, but the underdog side, that might not win a face to face battle, as it is tactically better then rushing head first into enemy fire. Best way to win a war is to not get shot.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> but the underdog side, that might not win a face to face battle


That’s not necessarily true, in many cases it has been used by forces who wouldn't otherwise win a head to head battle which would mean that it is used by the "underdogs" relatively frequently.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

if you read it all gen, I did just say that its used by the underdogs.

its almost always used as a defensive situation when you dont have access to heavier artillery, or against superior numbers, especially when you know the terrain better then your opponent.

One thing that i would like to point out from the DE dex though: is that the DE have the technological means to build advanced vehicles like the eldar, this means they have the means to build heavier tanks, but they choose not to.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The way you worded it made me think something different. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> if you read it all gen, I did just say that its used by the underdogs.
> 
> its almost always used as a defensive situation when you dont have access to heavier artillery, or against superior numbers, especially when you know the terrain better then your opponent.
> 
> One thing that i would like to point out from the DE dex though: is that the DE have the technological means to build advanced vehicles like the eldar, this means they have the means to build heavier tanks, but they choose not to.



Now the question is, do the DE get to take the time to make those vehicles in this scenario? We could say that they do because they wouldnt attack otherwise, but at the same time we could say that we are talking in the "now" in which case they dont have those heavy tanks.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> You can tell im new here because guess what?!? It shows how many posts I have next to my name. It, however, does not shows how versed I am in the fluff. The fact that I own over 40 novels should show that. Did you know that? No, but did it stop you from trying to call me a noob that doesnt know what im talking about? Also no.
> 
> You have no idea what your talking about. Your trying to infer things about me when to infer you need to make a educated guess and you dont have enough knowledge about me to do that.


You misunderstand me. I was not making assumptions about your knowledge (or lack of) at all.



JelloSea said:


> Even using your argument against you, I could say oh DE are bad in massive scale battles because they usually attack weak populations that cant fight back so they dont have "real" military experience. Im I saying this? No, because I know that they are experts in Gurilla warfare(which on a side note is a tactic often used by the losing force in our actual worlds history)


But then what is _"real"_ military experience? The Dark Eldar have always engaged in warfare of their choosing and by their own methods. Logic and reason dictates it as such, as does their inherent arrogance. Just because they don't conform with conventional Imperial military procedures doesn't mean they lack military experience. 

And that is hardly using my argument against me. You presume that because the Dark Eldar for the most part don't engage in large scale conventional warfare they would fail against large scale organsied opposition. Such an argument is beyond flawed. And beyond that you have not pointed out any other reason to support your case.



JelloSea said:


> The difference between you and I is simple. I see both sides of the argument, where as you only see your side and refuse even take into account the things other people say as valid. If it in anyway goes against what you believe, you cast it out as it cant possibly be correct. This will, in the end, be the cause of you to lose many arguments and is a equivalent to a child putting his fingers in his ears and shouting "LALALALALALALALALA"


Bit arrogant without reason arn't you? And by what your saying you obviously don't know me as well as many do on these fluff forums. 

What have I not taken into account you have said? Nothing. What have you not taken into account I (and many others) have said? Almost everything.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Perhaps we misunderstood each other then. But I still think you are overestimating the DE. Yes a lot of their weapons will vaporize a guardsmen, but your average guardsmen with a lasgun will punch through most all DE armor. Your DE have tanks that can destroy a Leman with 1 shot, but that same Leman can 1 shot that tank also.

In the end it comes down to tactics vs numbers and the number are so heavy in creeds favor I believe victory basically impossible to attain unless the battle raged for 30 years.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

JelloSea, theres another thing your missing, the DE would not come unprepared against creed and the DE under Vects control are MASSIVELY heavier in numbers over a single planet as cadia.

we are not overestimating the DE, you are underestimating vect, and/or you are taking game rules into account, in which is stupid and annoying because the IG have been built in a way to superceed the FoC with their tanks.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Well again every Dex paint themselves up as the baddest mofos around. Outside the dexes......


Outside the dexes they are always the villians. My point was that one source doesn't represent absolute results.



> Again shows that DE are a Prep type and good at the sneaky rout. However when face with a war of attrition or large scale battle, they crack. Too many variables for them.


I would say the DE would do very well in a war of attrition. Why? Because they have superior mobility and an untouchable base of operations, never mind semi-immortality and drastically extended lifespans. 



> Also Creed has face the most Unpredictable foes in Chaos and still stands... so how is lesser than that "other commander"?


I wasn't saying Creed was inferior to the other DE commander, merely that Vect was vastly superior. Meaning that the mistakes made by this commander are unlikely to be repeated by Vect.



JelloSea said:


> Now the question is, do the DE get to take the time to make those vehicles in this scenario? We could say that they do because they wouldnt attack otherwise, but at the same time we could say that we are talking in the "now" in which case they dont have those heavy tanks.


Of course they wouldn't make the tanks. His point wasn't that they could if they wanted. It was that they *choose* not to; meaning that they fight the way they do by choice, not necessity. 



JelloSea said:


> But I still think you are overestimating the DE. Yes a lot of their weapons will vaporize a guardsmen, but your average guardsmen with a lasgun will punch through most all DE armor. Your DE have tanks that can destroy a Leman with 1 shot, but that same Leman can 1 shot that tank also.


1) CotE's argument doesn't even mention the skills of an individual warrior or their weapons. Instead it focus' on their superior mobility and planning.
2) A lasgun will punch through a kabalites armour 2/3's of the time. This is not 'most all DE armour'
3) Your tank is sitting there unprepared for the Ravager, then must track a highly mobile target and hit it with very inaccurate ordinance fire. 



> In the end it comes down to tactics vs numbers and the number are so heavy in creeds favor I believe victory basically impossible to attain unless the battle raged for 30 years.


We actually don't know how heavily the numbers favour Creed as we don't know how many DE there are. Further the superior mobility of the DE allows them to make far more effective use of their numbers. Finally, Vect doesn't need to kill every single guardsmen. He needs to cripple their fighting ability (easily achieved via decapitation strikes and outflanking maneuvers) so that he can achieve whatever his real objective is.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm not taking into account the table top. Space Marines would destroy everyone one with 100 points if that were the case lol(sure its a stretch but you get the idea) The cadian guardsmen are amongst the best guardsmen in the galaxy and I am led to believe that there are more Cadian guardsmen than Eldar and more Eldar than Dark Eldar

We also have to factor in that if Vect decided to attack Cadia, a lot of his brethren would not like that decision making it all the more likely of a coup. So he would most likely have to deal with the double chance of getting killed by his own men.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

there are more cadian guardsmen then a craftworld of the Eldar, not the whole race, the DE have, what the new dex leads me to believe, a far superior number then the Eldar. the old 3rd ed DE book the DE were small in numbers, the new book, shows a far more logical number for a race thats mating all the time when they are not killing something.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

"correction I did have sex with Katy" - Charlie Murphy


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

I dont think any DE would have any issue with attacking Cadia, in fact, i could surmount that alot of DE would relish the chance even. Vect is basically the ultimate Dark Eldar, some might disagree, but he is, at the very least, at the top, and stays there for good reason, and he is, essentially a living embodiment of everything DE aspire to be, if the DE were to hold any kind of loyality, it would be to vect, seeing as how doing otherwise openly has gotten whole Kabals Wiped out, with vect still in control at the top.


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

Asdrubael Vect _versus_ Ursarkar Creed? No, no, no... they're the original odd couple! And they fight crime!


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Vect is basically the ultimate Dark Eldar, some might disagree, but he is, at the very least, at the top.


Nay, Vileth is the greatest Dark Eldar! He was so arrogant alive taht he became the dark mus eof arrogance! he must be the bestest! Well, he thinks so anyway... 

But seriously yeah, there's only one Dark Eldar that comes close to vect, and that's Malys. Even then, I don't think she could beat him in the end.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> your average guardsmen with a lasgun will punch through most all DE armor.


Stopped reading there.


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