# Naval battles in 40k.



## Supremehydra (Nov 20, 2009)

Aren't there any? You see space marines unit, super strong and stuff. But only on land. (I bet they'll all drown if dropped in the middle of the ocean)

Chaos? same thing. 

Tau? um.. no.

Orks? Hell no. 

Eldar? No seas on craftworlds (is that an excuse?)

Tyranids? Maybe, never seen any tho.

Even for imperial guard. Not a single ship. What if there's an xenos underwater colony in a sea-planet? How would they fight?


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## Phrazer (Oct 14, 2008)

I know for a fact SM are fine underwater, which probably means CSM are as well. Ive heard of Orks using submarines in the past and will all their fishy ways id be very surprised if Tau couldnt manage something ocean based but ive no proof of that.

I guess with all the flying/hovering vehicles out there as well ships might be slightly redundant??


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## Supremehydra (Nov 20, 2009)

really? can space marines just walk into water and fight for 3-4 days? They do need oxygen sooner or later


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

I would quote from the codex but I can't be bothered, it says the multi lung can be turned on and they can breath toxic fumes or even water.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Undersea stations/cities always have some sort of access to the world above. You just can't produce enough air downstairs for that many people. And that means ventillation shafts, which means that should the surface fall to the enemy, they can infiltrate the facility with relative ease. Dark Disciple has a situation like this, though a bit more complicated. :grin:


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## Supremehydra (Nov 20, 2009)

if they have their own generators. who knows. the point is, how an army in warhammer 40k (especially the Imperium, coz they hate xenos) can attack a civilization that lives, eats and breathes underwater, without boiling the whole world. 

Oh, and back to the point, is there any naval warfare? Or, if thousands of troops need to be transported to a continent just ahead, but across the sea. I wouldn't be worth it to call down a huge battleship from space, or to transport them using small crafts (that exist in 40k so far). ships would be far easier


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## Major Strombardt (Feb 22, 2009)

Would it not be cool to have a D-Day type invasion battle? I mean IG and SM trying to gain a beachhead v. Chaos or any other race like orks??? Sounds better the more I think about it!

The sea battle could take place before the landings...lot of potential here...


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Space wolves current codex lists a underwater battle - spacewolves vs tau. The Tau having been undetected for a decade on the ocean floor of an imperial planet, not a small outpost apparantly a whole city - presumably generating their own oxygen from the seawater. 

The spacewolves sent their landraiders down full of terminators, the terminators were fully capable of operating even at great depth. They fought in the water no problem at all.

I would wonder how much affect water resistance would have on bolter shell velocity though, it slows regular bullets down far more than air :shok:

As far as full on over the water battles go, Im not sure they are really necesary, thunderhawks should be able to handle both transport and over sea assault far more efficiently than a sea faring ship.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

And lets not forget that even a sea can be bombarded from orbit, making naval forces completely useless unless we're talking about a planet thats 100% water. But who gives a damn about an aquarium planet anyway?


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

fishmen do...fishmen do.


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## Major Strombardt (Feb 22, 2009)

Fuel beds on the bottom would be a reason...

and would stop things like orbital bombardment if the land was important for extraction...

AND the Orky Submarine I am building could get a good run out...

I suppose this thread is like a novel...not constrained by the rules...but is not the game to play like the books and vice versa??


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## Supremehydra (Nov 20, 2009)

yea.. thunderhawks can drop marines in the middle of the ocean. then how can they retrieve them back? 

oh, and how can a terminator breathe underwater really? with a third lung? a little ridiculous to me.


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## Lord Castellen (Jun 29, 2009)

everyones forgetting the biggest advatage of sea fleets! GIGANTIC MOBILE ARTILLARY! one battle ship, with like 5 earthshakers and like 35 hydra flak guns could rip through most armies! and i think it would play into the game as a off board ability, like the master of ordance or a more advanced version of DS that drops units from gunships off aircraft carriers, or something along those lines. i think it would be a cool idea.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Major Strombardt said:


> Would it not be cool to have a D-Day type invasion battle? I mean IG and SM trying to gain a beachhead v. Chaos or any other race like orks??? Sounds better the more I think about it!
> 
> The sea battle could take place before the landings...lot of potential here...


Drop pods sort of make beach landings a bit pointless. 

And ships that can fly sort of make _boats_ a bit pointless...


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Supremehydra said:


> yea.. thunderhawks can drop marines in the middle of the ocean. then how can they retrieve them back?
> 
> oh, and how can a terminator breathe underwater really? with a third lung? a little ridiculous to me.



Both power armour (from Mk2 onwards) and terminator armour are designed for use in the vacuum of space! Under water - not much more of an issue.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

On second thoughts, this wouldn't be awesome. We would end up with SM Dolphins and CSM Octopuses and it'd feel like some retarded game that revolves around blue and red tanks shooting at each other.


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## Major Strombardt (Feb 22, 2009)

Concrete Hero said:


> Drop pods sort of make beach landings a bit pointless.
> 
> And ships that can fly sort of make _boats_ a bit pointless...


In a game that is about imagination...your "lack of" holds you back my friend!!

k:


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## Madshaw (Oct 8, 2009)

I think it would probabally end up like a game of battlefleet gothic, i'm sure those rules could be used for most kinds of naval gameplay


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## Fire Lord (Feb 15, 2009)

In Soul Drinker, the tech marines had to fit boats with engines from their thunderhawks, as the marines were unable to attack the island directly. There was a small battle at sea, followed by a beach assault. Could there be a sea battle, sure. However, I feel marines prefer to keep their feet on dry ground.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

The thing about ships makeing sea battles obsolete is a good one, but what abou this:

Marines/INQ: I got nothin, they'll do whatever they freekin want
Guard: What? come down from orbit? But we dont care about you...
Orks: Our ship was a flying rock... how are we going to get cross this ocean now?
Eldar: Grav-tanks=boat equivalent, coss the water, eh whats this? Those dumb guardsmen made a boat?
CSM: We teleport onto your ships and stab you to death. Then we eat your soul. 
Tau: Absolutely. They have ships because they can. 
Nids: Hey theres food down there! Lets get it!
Chrons: Were at the botom. Hold on a sec, were comeing...
DE: BOATS ARE NEW AND AWSOME!!! RAPE BOAT!!! FUCK YEAH!!!

As far as beach asaults, yeah sure. I think they had one in Gaunts Ghosts. Most races would probly just turn it into an orbital drop/teleportation assault though.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Ive just been thinking some more on this, and realised that of course not every world of the imperium is at the same level technology wise. Thinking of the fenrisian's they spend their lives on the seas, fighting at sea etc. Not perhaps "Naval" but maritime battle for sure. 

I seem to remember that many planets are very backwards, its quite likelly that some are still in a similiar tech level to our history. Its also not impossible for an Imperial planet to have plenty of infighting. A post black powder Feudal world may well see human on human Naval activity.

Also out there theres quite likelly to be human worlds without imperium contact who may have full on Naval battles.

I dont think there are many "main stream" naval battles though, technology really renders them obsolete.


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## Treewizard648 (Feb 4, 2009)

In the Halo 3 Mythic map pack, if you look out into the distance on the map "Longshore" there is a massive UNSC aircraft carrier. Therefore even in Halo they still use ships for something even though the UNSC has a similar tech. level as the Imperium.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Damnit why is everyone talking about Halo after one little quip about MJLONIR?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

In Planet Strike Codex theres also a tale of the SWs dropping there troops in the Ocean to assault a Beach, the Tau sent Manta Rays filled with Battle Suits to counter and they fought like animals underwater till the beach was red with the fallens blood.... something like that..... The Taus ships and Thunderhawks were quiet capable to go underwater. It was a major Planet Strike battle. 40K Naval warfare.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

how the f would a thunderhawk work underwater!?


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## warmaster36 (May 15, 2008)

the thunderhawk like power armour can work in space so why not underwater


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I was reading Fulgrim and there is alot of battles fought on deep ocean beds against the Laer by the Emperors Children. They were lauch in capsuls to the bottom.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

warmaster36 said:


> the thunderhawk like power armour can work in space so why not underwater



Underwater isn't like space, the engines it could use to fly in space would be useless underwater, and a thunderhawk isn't streamlined, so drag would be immense.

I like the idea of naval fleets in 40k, on a planet like ours where there is alot of ocean, fortifying it would be helped by the presense of a large selection of battleships, aircraft/troop carriers, and missile subs. 
Think about it, if the enemy make planetfall on an undefended continent, you're buggered unless you can deploy huge amounts of firepower and troops to that region. Flyers have a hard time due to enemy AA guns, and you can't put a russ in a valk can you?


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Yeah i think they happen, and there is a need for beach assualts when you think about it. Many people would think that space landings be the most dangerous form of attack and so if on a island would build up AA weapons. So what do you do, drop off some amphibious vehicles, like the chimera, and go ahsore to knock out the AA weapons allowing the rest of the army to come in.

So that's why you don't hear about them because the naval operations are little more the breeching assaults for the main force.


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## ultramarine v2 (Nov 11, 2009)

there is a chapter of space marines that specialises in underwater tactics
the emporers spears! no fluff but it does say it on iron hands!
also the space wolves codex does mention an underwater battle,
Also in the landraider fluff in codex marines it says the landraider drove along the sea bed to attack a tau (i think) force.
sorry if the info is hazy just remembered it all!


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## welshboy600 (Dec 22, 2009)

In one of the gaunts ghosts books there is a major sea landing and loads of the ghosts drown while assaulting the beach head as they get dropped in too deep. So there are landings but it was done via airborne assault rather than from the sea.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I love the idea of naval battles in 40k... however like the modern Navy... they are a little silly when you consider what really happens. BFG suffers the same way. We are at the tech level where the battleship is redundant... Thanks to the Aircraft Carrier and range of planes and their payload. 

Simply put why do a USS Missouri when it can be sunk by one aircraft strike or missile strike from great range. (Hence why they mothball them or they are reduced to shore bombardment duty when they know the enemy can't field greater air power). They days of the Ironcald, Dreadnaught and broadsides are long over. BFG is interesting certainly, but why bother with super sized ships when you can give the firepower to a heap of smaller support craft which are smaller and easier to build...

That said, as a supporter of naval warfare in that style... I see no reason why you cant put most stuff on water and call it whatever u want. In fact I think Landing craft made from Chimera's just reveresed would be cool, with turret at the rear and the crew part open topped facing the beach.


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## JDMJapan (Jan 3, 2010)

Hmmmmm....... In an old white dwarf mag someone says somthing about how they are building a d-day map with chimeras tearing up the beach........ But I can see SM down there with underwater jump packs, and tau in their suits. As for actual boats, I am building a catchan inflatable w/ 2 flamers and a heavy bolter...... sick!


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Alexious said:


> ...why bother with super sized ships when you can give the firepower to a heap of smaller support craft which are smaller and easier to build...


Tech Heresy!

Burn him for he advocates Change!


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Supremehydra said:


> Aren't there any? You see space marines unit, super strong and stuff. But only on land. (I bet they'll all drown if dropped in the middle of the ocean)


Space Marines can operate just fine underwater. When battling a foe who was located underwater, space wolves converted their thunderhawks to work underwater, and battled the enemy directly. When they were done, the marines simply walked along the sea floor until they reached land.

Incidentally, what use is a wet navy, when the Imperium can use giant anti-grave transports and attack craft, as well as aircraft and bombers, etc.

Your big bad water battleships can still be boarded by space marines in thunderhawks. They will then kill your crew, and sink your boat.

Chaos? same thing. [/QUOTE]

My replies above count here too.



> Tau? um.. no.


Their tech all hovers. Seas are no problem.



> Orks? Hell no.


Except for ork submersibles, which were used to great effect in the third war for armaggedon...?



> Eldar? No seas on craftworlds (is that an excuse?)


Firstly, there are seas on craftworlds. They are complete biospheres.

Secondly, all their vehicles hover. Water is no obstacle. Also, I reckon eldar craft would work underwater too.



> Tyranids? Maybe, never seen any tho.


Read the new codex. Tyranids have the oceans covered...



> Even for imperial guard. Not a single ship. What if there's an xenos underwater colony in a sea-planet? How would they fight?


Destroy the colony from orbit? Or drop megatonne depth charges onto said colonies?

I have a question: what will an Imperial water navy do when tasked with storming a non-water world? emember, an Imperial crusade needs to be versatile.


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

As someone already pointed out the Emperor's Children campaigned rather well against the Laer on the bottom of the ocean. Power-Armour, unless its MK1, is an utterly self-contained enviroment able to survive in space, it has oxygen recylers in it and such. 

Naval battles may seem rather obsolete but then so does any sort of land battle when you consider space faring vessels can just park up in high orbit and quite easily pinpoint target locations on the surface for destruction.


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

The planetstrike book also talks about an eldar invasion of an "imperial" world. What i think they did was saim-hann bikers came down from orbit above the seas on the planet and made their way inland to avoid air defences or something. Its slightly different but still could count as a naval battle. 

Also yes the eldar codex says its vehicles are pressurised so they can fly in space. Cant see why water would be much different. (and they are streamlined enough to go through water).

I can't see much use in 'on' water battles but I think below water battles would be pretty awesome. Space marines with aqua-jump packs and tau battlesuits with special weapons modified for use in water. Could be some interesting rules to go with how the water affects different weapons.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> Naval battles may seem rather obsolete but then so does any sort of land battle when you consider space faring vessels can just park up in high orbit and quite easily pinpoint target locations on the surface for destruction.


Umm, you still need land battles. You need to capture and HOLD territory. Just like you can't win a battle with just artillery, or just air power.

However, naval warfare is a specifically irrelevent element within planet-based battles (for the reasons mentioned in my previous post)


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

LordLucan said:


> Umm, you still need land battles. You need to capture and HOLD territory. Just like you can't win a battle with just artillery, or just air power.
> 
> However, naval warfare is a specifically irrelevent element within planet-based battles (for the reasons mentioned in my previous post)


Which highlights the point i was making  What if you need to capture and hold a beachead or a deep sea platform or somesuch, or extract something from said locations.
Aquatic operations are largerly irrelevent but still called for in very specific circumstances.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> Which highlights the point i was making  What if you need to capture and hold a beachead or a deep sea platform or somesuch, or extract something from said locations.


Beach heads can be taken by the vast ammount of aerial/anti-grav assault vehicles and transports. Deep sea platforms; well that's fair enough. However, as you say, it is a very specific situaiton. An Imperial Crusade can't waste space with a fleet of submarines and such, just in case there are underwater platforms on an enemy world.




> Aquatic operations are largerly irrelevent but still called for in very specific circumstances.


Indeed. I agree.


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