# The C'tan (New Fluff)



## ckcrawford

Based on the new Necron's Codex, it is my understanding that the C'tan were tricked into making themselves shards, and are somehow controlled their tomb world.

I find this interesting, because until now, the C'tan were the most powerful beings in the Galaxy. How does this change current fluff? Most importantly, would the Void Dragon still be considered a shard? Or is it the only C'tan to be whole? 

I don't understand what the hell is going on. And I don't understand why GW had to go extreme in changing the fluff about the C'tan. Not so much about the Necrons. But in my opinion the new C'tan fluff is bullshit, considering, recent fluff like the Heresy Novel _Mechanicum._


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## Warlock in Training

I guess the badass Emperor is not so uber when he fought the Void Dragon, it was just a shard after all :wink:.

The Shard thing works, like the AoK is a simple shard of the Bloody handed God so is the Nightbringer and Deceaver now. Make fighting them not impossible now. Even a chump like the Emp can take a Shard. All makes sense now :laugh:


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## Malus Darkblade

Doesen't matter if the C'tan was at the height of it's power. They are weak to psykers and the Emperor is the most powerful one to have ever existed.

His goal was to entomb the C'tan on Mars and enslave it for eternity which is what he did, the power level of the C'tan at the time was not relevant because it was going to happen no matter what.


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## Warlock in Training

In the fluff 40k the Emp does seem to have that power. Void Dragon that eats stars and master of the Material Universe gets a stern look by the Emp and is imprison. The Emp wanted to claim a Galaxy of monsters and badasses, so he lifted a finger and claim most the known Galaxy before getting bored and head back to terra. Chaos empowered Horus who beat on the Emp like he had a pair was killed with a yawn from the Big E. Hell he sits on his golden toilet and plays god for kicks now. 

Matt Ward couldnt done better job on the Emps establish fluff :laugh:


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## SoulGazer

The C'tan are not weak to the Warp, just able to be hurt by it. If they were weak to it they probably woulda got beat by the Old Ones. Also, the Dragon may or may not be a C'tan anymore. The Codex basically says that anything the Imperium thought was a C'tan probably wasn't. They retconned everything having to do with C'tan in a single paragraph. It was fun. Not really, but, that's life. I don't blame Ward for this one, actually, I think GW was going to retcon it all anyways to make way for the rise of Chaos in 6th edition.


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## Warlock in Training

All about the Chaos. Cant wait!


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## Malus Darkblade

SoulGazer said:


> The C'tan are not weak to the Warp, just able to be hurt by it. If they were weak to it they probably woulda got beat by the Old Ones. Also, the Dragon may or may not be a C'tan anymore. The Codex basically says that anything the Imperium thought was a C'tan probably wasn't.


The Talismans of Vaul were created with the sole purpose of combating the C'Tan indicating that yes they are without a doubt weak to the Warp.

'_The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp-spawned magicks. The C'tan's empire of destruction was sent reeling: the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed, they could not stay the Old Ones' relentless advance_.' (Codex: Necrons, Page 26)

'_They instigated a great warding, a plan to forever defeat the magicks of the Old Ones.._.' (Codex: Necrons, Page 26)

They are not weak to the Warp but they get hurt by it? That's the very definition of being weak to something and for being masters of the material universe, undoubtedly nothing physical could hurt them hence why the Warp scares them because it is not a physical force at all.

The Old Ones were winning the war thanks to the creation of their psyker races but eventually were wiped out indirectly by the very success of their creations, the Enslaver plague.

And no the Dragon is also without a doubt a C'tan. Where in the Codex does it say otherwise?


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## Serpion5

No Malus, the C`tan are not weak to the warp. 

Let's look at history. Yes the eldar made weapons using warp energy to kill the c`tan. We have one example of them using this technology. Did it succeed? No, it did not. 

The Eldar and their Gods were brought forth to battle the c`tan and necrons. The Old Ones themselves were amont the strongest of psyker capable races, yet none of them could succeed in slaying a star god. 


TO THIS DAY only one thing has succeeded in outright killing a c`tan, and it's not warp based anything, it was necron technology that destroyed it. Even then it cost them dearly, for this c`tan in its final moments cursed their race forever with the flayer virus. 

So, while they may be VULNERABLE to warp based attacks, remember that technically, so are daemons.  But that in no way means a particular weakness. 

You might as well say kangaroos are weak against sedans.


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## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> No Malus, the C`tan are not weak to the warp.


Yes they are.



Serpion5 said:


> Let's look at history.


Ok lets.



Serpion5 said:


> The eldar made weapons using warp energy to kill the c`tan. We have one example of them using this technology. Did it succeed? No, it did not.


We don't know if it was meant to kill the C'tan since they cannot be destroyed by conventional means, only consumed. But did it weaken them? Yup or at least just the Dragon of Mars. 



Serpion5 said:


> The Eldar and their Gods were brought forth to battle the c`tan and necrons. The Old Ones themselves were amont the strongest of psyker capable races, yet none of them could succeed in slaying a star god.


We don't know if the Old Ones were psykers or powerful ones since they had to resort to creating a lot of psyker-races. Why not simply clone themselves if they were?

And they were in a war of survival, to push the invading Necrons/C'tans back by resorting to the desperate decision to create entire races. Their complete superiority over the unaided Necrons allowed the combined threat of the Necrons/C'tan to catch them completely off guard. 

Perhaps once they were given breathing room they could have devised a way to destroy the C'tan but they got owned by the Enslavers.



Serpion5 said:


> TO THIS DAY only one thing has succeeded in outright killing a c`tan, and it's not warp based anything, it was necron technology that destroyed it. Even then it cost them dearly, for this c`tan in its final moments cursed their race forever with the flayer virus.


The C'tan were not destroyed. They were separated into shards. And you forget the Necrons only struck at the C'tan when they were exhausted. So much for the Necrons being all powerful.



Serpion5 said:


> So, while they may be VULNERABLE to warp based attacks, remember that technically, so are daemons.  But that in no way means a particular weakness.


Everything is vulnerable to the Warp. It is the way of things. Especially for beings who only know of the material realm and the laws of physics that inhabit it hence their fear and weakness towards a realm full of beings that laugh at such concepts.


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> Yes they are.


No they're not.  



> Ok lets.






> We don't know if it was meant to kill the C'tan since they cannot be destroyed by conventional means, only consumed. But did it weaken them? Yup or at least just the Dragon of Mars.


It was written in the fluff as being designed to kill the c'tan. It was written in the old dex, it was written in the EoT campaign, it was written in several BL novels including DoW Ascension and it has not been retconned by anything in the new book. 



> We don't know if the Old Ones were psykers or powerful ones since they had to resort to creating a lot of psyker-races. Why not simply clone themselves if they were?


We know that their knowledge of the warp was unparalleled, they built the webway after all and they had the ability to create races of such resilience as the orks, eldar and jokaero to name a few. One does not make servants with free will and give them more power than yourself. Based on what little we know, I would venture a guess that they found using lesser races to fight preferable to consigning large numbers of their own to gruesome deaths in war.



> And they were in a war of survival, to push the invading Necrons/C'tans back by resorting to the desperate decision to create entire races. Their complete superiority over the unaided Necrons allowed the combined threat of the Necrons/C'tan to catch them completely off guard.


The necrontyr began the war out of a need for unity. They were not in any way expected to win. Once they became the necrons, the tides changed. You are citing old fluff here where the Old Ones were on the verge of winning... 



> Perhaps once they were given breathing room they could have devised a way to destroy the C'tan but they got owned by the Enslavers.


...but in the new fluff the Old Ones were defeated by the c`tan and necrons as much as they were hindered by the Enslavers.



> The C'tan were not destroyed. They were separated into shards. And you forget the Necrons only struck at the C'tan when they were exhausted. So much for the Necrons being all powerful.


I was referring to one c`tan in particular: Llangdu`dor tha Flayer. He was not splintered like his brethren, but instead was utterly obliterated. The Flayer virus was his parting gift to the necrons. And never were the necrons considered all powerful, nor did I infer that. Trillions of necrons were destroyed forever to see the c`tan defeated. It was by no means a simple feat. 



> Everything is vulnerable to the Warp. It is the way of things. Especially for beings who only know of the material realm and the laws of physics that inhabit it hence their fear and weakness towards a realm full of beings that laugh at such concepts.


You are confusing hatred for fear. They despised what they could not control and sought to deatroy it. But never were they described as being truly afraid of the warp, in fact they were always depicted as being quite confident in their own superiority.


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## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> It was written in the fluff as being designed to kill the c'tan. It was written in the old dex, it was written in the EoT campaign, it was written in several BL novels including DoW Ascension and it has not been retconned by anything in the new book.


Maybe I am wrong but a quote or two would be nice. 



Serpion5 said:


> We know that their knowledge of the warp was unparalleled, they built the webway after all and they had the ability to create races of such resilience as the orks, eldar and jokaero to name a few. One does not make servants with free will and give them more power than yourself.


The whole point besides creating the other races was out of desperation not because they were lonely. The threat of death erases all rationale. And they probably built a kill-switch in each of the races, to be activated only after they won against the Necrons/Ctan.

And the Webway is a tunnel through the Warp. If their understanding of it was so intricate, they could have come up with something similar to Geller Fields as opposed to creating a back alley route. 

They could have easily found ways of dealing with the denizens of the Warp like the Imperium has and yet they didn't as though they were not that adept with using the Warp against itself or simply afraid of the things that lurk within it given their inability to defend against them.



Serpion5 said:


> Based on what little we know, I would venture a guess that they found using lesser races to fight preferable to consigning large numbers of their own to gruesome deaths in war.


They were a benevolent race- supposedly. I don't see how cloning themselves or copies without souls/whatever was not a priority.



Serpion5 said:


> The necrontyr began the war out of a need for unity. They were not in any way expected to win. Once they became the necrons, the tides changed. You are citing old fluff here where the Old Ones were on the verge of winning...


The new codex changed several things mostly our understanding of the Necrons and their history but not everything. 

If the Old Ones were not on the verge of winning then why did the Necrons not go in for the death stroke? Surely they had plenty of time to do so prior to the Enslaver plague.



Serpion5 said:


> ...but in the new fluff the Old Ones were defeated by the c`tan and necrons as much as they were hindered by the Enslavers.


I can't control + F my copy of the Necron codex so again quotes would be nice.



Serpion5 said:


> And never were the necrons considered all powerful, nor did I infer that.


:shok:



Serpion5 said:


> You are confusing hatred for fear. They despised what they could not control and sought to deatroy it. But never were they described as being truly afraid of the warp, in fact they were always depicted as being quite confident in their own superiority.


Perhaps not a fear of the Chaos powers themselves but their own survival? The C'tan seem to be just like the Dark Eldar in that regard only bigger and more powerful.


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## Serpion5

Bear with me for a while while I gather some sources. In the meantime, here's a quote for you: 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Sorry I take everything you say as canon.


What happened with that huh?


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## Malus Darkblade

I've been told my sarcasm sounds German. lol.

I await...


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## Serpion5

Codex: Necrons (5e) Page 7 said:


> Glutted on the life force of the necrontyr, the empowered C'tan were nigh unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality warping powers of the star gods. Necron legions finally broached the webway and assailed the Old Ones in every corner of the galaxy. They brought under siege the fortresses of the Old Ones' allies, harvesting the life force of the defenders to feed their masters. *Ultimately beset by the C'tan and the calamitous Warp-spawned perils they had themselves mistakenly unleashed, the Old Ones were defeated, scattered and finally destroyed.*





Codex: Necrons (3e) Page 31 said:


> It has even succeeded in locating the potent *Talismen of Vaul, great weapons forged by the Eldar to destroy the C'tan if they rose again.*



And as you are no doubt aware, the Talismen of Vaul are of course also known as the Blackstone Fortresses, of which twelve were employed and failed to kill the Void Dragon, bringing me back to my point of warp based weapons having never succeeded in slaying a star god.


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## Malus Darkblade

Beset. That word alone is indicative that the C'tan were not as instrumental to the fall of the Old Ones as the Enslavers were. Assuming no other fluff existed other than that particular sentence, then yes we are to assume that both threats were equal but because other fluff exists, we know this is not the case.

If the Enslavers didn't pop up, I do not think the combined threat of the Necrons/C'tan would have cemented their defeat.

"_....to destroy the C'tan if they rose again_' implies that the talismans succeeded in their duty of keeping the C'tan at bay. 

Otherwise, how were the Talismans of Vaul forged to destroy something capable of rising again?


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## Serpion5

Context. The fact that it was written in the necron codex is suggestive enough. A victory written in the IG codex is rarely attributed to the workings of a farseer or Tzeentch now is it? 

The structure of the sentence in no way implies that it was ever successful, it simply implies that the eldar believed the C'tan could return from wherever they had vanished to.


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## Malus Darkblade

If anything the fact that it comes from the Necron codex suggests that from their eyes, it was a weapon meant to destroy their masters. 

They would not know the truth of it and their enemies would most likely try their hardest to make the Necrons/C'tan think it was deadlier than it really was.

We can either agree to disagree, argue until the end of time, or await the council of Child of the Emperor lol.


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## Doelago

Malus Darkblade said:


> If anything the fact that it comes from the Necron codex suggests that from their eyes, it was a weapon meant to destroy their masters.
> 
> They would not know the truth of it and their enemies would most likely try their hardest to make the Necrons/C'tan think it was deadlier than it really was.


A Codex is fact.

A book like "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" is from the eyes of the faction that it is all about.


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## Serpion5

CotE is not the be all and end all of the 40kverse, even HE will admit that.  

Your call, we can agree to disagree or I can keep saying how wrong you are.


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## Malus Darkblade

Doelago said:


> A Codex is fact.
> 
> A book like "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" is from the eyes of the faction that it is all about.


To the Necrons, the ToV were meant to kill the C'tan. They wouldn't know its true purpose since the only time they were near one was when it was activated/fired.



Serpion5 said:


> CotE is not the be all and end all of the 40kverse, even HE will admit that.


Such heresy. He will not openly proclaim his divinity which in fact makes him divine.

_From the Book of Malus
_



Serpion5 said:


> Your call, we can agree to disagree or I can keep saying how wrong you are.


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> To the Necrons, the ToV were meant to kill the C'tan. They wouldn't know its true purpose since the only time they were near one was when it was activated/fired.


Right. So what was its true purpose? And a quote and source would be nice.  



> Such heresy. He will not openly proclaim his divinity which in fact makes him divine.
> 
> _From the Book of Malus
> _


Wat? He rubs his _"Divinity"_ in my face every chance he gets.  



>


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## SoulGazer

This thread is making me hot...

Also Malus, there is never one mention of anything having to do with Mars in the new Cron dex. The Void Dragon is mentioned in passing along with a few other C'tan, but that's it. In the 3rd Ed. codex there was a whole blurb about Failbaddon getting a daemon to show him what was in the Noctis Labyrinth, which for a long while now was heavily implied to be holding the Dragon. Also, in the timeline in 3rd Ed. is a little excerpt about the Necrons attacking and setting foot on Mars. That is absent in the new timeline. Also there were several short stories about Tech Priests denying they served Chaos but served another power instead. All gone. (Makes me sad.)

In the description for the C'tan it is said that the Imperium would have no idea what a C'tan was and would probably confuse it with something else. They did not explicitly state that the Dragon was not a C'tan, no, but they made it even more vague and got rid of the previous evidence from the last codex.

Why would they have done this after all the heaps of hints they gave everyone? Probably so they can make it into a daemon later on. All the descriptions of power related to the Dragon in _Mechanicum_ can also be attributed to the effects of the Warp. I'm not any more happy about it than anyone else, but they would not have made it so vague for no reason at all. Again, GW is getting rid of the Crons and C'tan as galactic threats so there can be more focus on Chaos for 6th edition.


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## ckcrawford

I assume that the Void Dragon somehow was able to escape the Necrons plan to make him into shards and went to Terra where it lived in Banishment. And many years later he becomes the Emperor's bitch and is made as a pet on Mars.


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## Deadeye776

I don't know if I'd give the Emperor that much credit. The Dragon was serverly weakened when he fought the Emperor who was healthy and at full power. Actually I think it said he was crawling and flying at the same time. If they'd stuck to the fluff imprisoning the Dragon may have been the second most dangerous thing the Emperor has done next to investigating web portals on his own homeworld. There's a reason no one wants nuclear facilities near them. It's dangerous if things go wrong.


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## Malus Darkblade

The most powerful psyker ever known versus a being weak to the Warp = doesn't matter how weak or strong the Dragon was at the time.


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## Deadeye776

The dragon defeated the Talismans of Vaul.......so let's not go calling it a night. The Emperor has almost been killed many times. I think Horus saved his life on many occasions. So being an ultra powerful pysker may be a great asset but it defintely isn't the equation for an automatic V. You know what the Emperor weakness is? Common sense.


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## Malus Darkblade

Deadeye776 said:


> The dragon defeated the Talismans of Vaul.......


???



Deadeye776 said:


> The Emperor has almost been killed many times. I think Horus saved his life on many occasions.


Once in a manner that I would say is identical to when Curze had the Lion on the ropes, a temporary setback.



Deadeye776 said:


> So being an ultra powerful pysker may be a great asset but it defintely isn't the equation for an automatic V.


It pretty much is actually unless you're a Pariah with a bolter.


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## Deadeye776

The Story of the talismans of Vaul hint that they were unsuccessful against the Dragon.The Emperor was almost killed by a huge Ork warboss who wasn't a pariah and I'm going to assume he wasn't rocking a bolter. As someone who has had his life saved before in the military I can tell you there'sa huge difference between on the ropes and getting your life saved. People save your life when your about to die. Kind of indicative in the phrase "saving life." On the ropes is getting hit with a good shot and getting your bell wrung. Want an example? Sanguinius could have used someone to "save his life" as he was not on the ropes but being strangled by them.


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## Malus Darkblade

_"The Story of the talismans of Vaul hint that they were unsuccessful against the Dragon"
_
They were successful at keeping them away.

_"The Emperor was almost killed by a huge Ork warboss who wasn't a pariah and I'm going to assume he wasn't rocking a bolter."
_
Barely any details were given but something as petty as a random warboss posing an actual threat to the Emperor is laughable. Horus was an egotistical man. What better boast is there to tell his brothers other than saving the life of the Emperor and their father?

_"As someone who has had his life saved before in the military I can tell you there'sa huge difference between on the ropes and getting your life saved. "
_
Real life + WH40k = Oil + Water


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## SoulGazer

The Dragon was not killed by gigantic warp cannons. The C'tan are not weak against the warp. If they were weak against it, he would have been obliterated. Instead, it merely weakened the Dragon to the point where it still almost killed the Emperor.

I see no evidence of actual weakness here, actually more like it's resistant to the warp. Anything else would just die from the Blackstone Fortresses, but not the Dragon. He took the shots, they didn't kill him, then fought the Emperor, who also couldn't kill him. Weak against the warp my butt, they can't kill this thing with the most powerful warp manipulators ever created, obviously he's not weak to the warp.

As I recall, the only Warp-related thing that actually beat a C'tan besides the Emperor was Khaine. Ok, so, you need a warp god to beat these things; and the Nightbringer was at full power at the time and still corrupted Khaine when he exploded. That's some weakness right there.


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## Serpion5

The Nightbringer lost the fight because his necrodermis shell was breached by Khaine's sword but did not truly harm his essence. In return he corrupted Khaine and inflicted the fear of death upon the eldar according to legend. 

The true specific accounts of those time are impossible to know for sure, but what we can confirm is that the C`tan won the war agains the Old Ones with the aid of the necrons, the necrons then shattered the C'tan and imprisoned most of them. 


Regarding the Void Dragon on Mars, remember that the necrons do not have a complete tally on every single shard out there and it would not be beyond the ken of such a being to hide on a backwater planet like Earth was at that time. The codex also alludes to the fact that the shards minds were as fractured as their essence was, so assuming the Emperor faced a Void Dragon shard it is likely that its limited mind was outwitted. 

Because I know Malus will ask for a quote...  



Codex: Necrons (5e) Page 40 said:


> Whilst no individual C'tan shard has full recollection of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far more puissant being. Though a C'tan shard has the power to reduce a tank to molten slag with but a gesture, it might simply not occur to it to do so, as its gestalt primogenitor would have tackled the situation through other means, ...


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## BrainFreeze

Meh changed, seemed overly arguementive.

It would be fair to say that C'Tan are as weak against warp energies as any other being that would be able to be attacked by ALL of the talisman of vaul and still be alive in the aftermath.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

In regards to the _"are the C'tan *weak* against warp energy?"_ debate:

The key word upon which you lot are hinging the debate is _*"weakness."*_ The lore suggests that the C'tan can be effected by warp energy, but whether this implies a weakness or not entirely depends on individual perspective. Some people would suggest that where an entity such as a C'tan is involved, by it simply being effected by warp energy would suggest a weakness (seeing as though it can't really be effected by anything else - bar the weaponised _"energies of the living universe"_ which the Necrons used to shatter them into shards). Whilst others will use examples of failed attempts to destroy a C'tan with devices that utilised warp energy to claim the C'tan bear no such weakness. Those two points pretty much sum up what has been argued thus far.

It all depends on how you define _"weakness"_ in this context. But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, the C'tan can be effected by warp energy and are anathema to it - that is the point.


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## LukeValantine

I prefer to interpret the current fluff on warp energies vs c'tan as meaning that only warp energy can permanently ignore or affect a c'tan as destroying their physical shell does nothing. So by weakness I take it they mean the only thing that can possibly ever hurt them. Kind alike ethereal units being weak to magic, in that only a magic weapon or attack can actually do any permanent damage.

Also for all we know many lesser c'tan were killed in the war in heaven, but they were not important enough to mention. Just because they won doesn't mean a single c'tan wasn't destroyed.


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## Serpion5

The C`tan are part of the very fabric of the universe and thus all but impossible to destroy. 

The necrons succeeded once, and it is likely that this was a mere fluke since it was never repeated. 

Even now as shards, it is implied that they cannot be destroyed, but are far more manageable than the original gods themselves.


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## Deadeye776

Okay let's flesh this whole thing out. The backstory says that the talismans of Vaul were created as a weapon against the C'tan and it alludes to specifically being utlilized for the Void Dragon and that they were unsuccesful. Like superman has got a weakness to kryptonite but he still defeats whoever's using it. Also if you look at the early Horus Heresy novels it states that Horus saved the Emperor's life on as many as several occasions. The last being on Ullanor against a giant ork warboss who was about to kill the Emperor. Also, as to the "all powerful" Emperor. It states in the Mechanicus that even though he didn't want to because of his plans, the Emperor was incapable of killing the Void Dragon even in it's severely weakened state and it still almost killed him. 

As for the shards now I think it's a ridiculous idea but whatever. I've said before with the forces arraying against the Imperium it didn't make sense they still existed.Pure chaos,the traitors, tyranids,orks,eldar,dark eldar,and the tau. The Imperium coudln't stand against all that alone.......unless Draigo was freed from the warp written by Matt Ward to hand Abbaddon his ass. The truth is I think they depowered the C'tan so they weren't another "ultimate evil" like Chaos.


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## Serpion5

They depowered the c'tan because the fluff was tired and monotonous. 

Having the necrons defeat their own gods did several things: 

1: It allowed for more customization in the army, as players can now create their own necron characters, their own c'tan shards, and their own flavour of army itself.

2: Yes, it removed the necrons as a severe threat giving the spotlight back to the tyranids and Chaos. 

3: It left gaps for future plot potential. The whole situation with the pariah gene is no longer attributed to the necrons, meaning gw can drop a huge bombshell at any moment. My guess is the pariah gene will be rewritten as having something to do with the Emperor. 


In any case, it was a good change. It was needed.


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## Malus Darkblade

I am surprised you feel they are no longer are a threat equivalent to the Tyranids and mostly that you're ok with it


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## Serpion5

Originally, I liked necrons for the imagery more than the fluff itself. I was making homebrew shit up for ages that probably wouldn't have made sense but I pushed the boundaries anyway. 

Now, most of what I had written in the past is credible. So yes, I am extremely fucking happy. The imperfections in their character and ambitions, as well as their abilities, is what makes them interesting now. And much more fun to write about.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> It states in the Mechanicus that even though he didn't want to because of his plans, the Emperor was incapable of killing the Void Dragon even in it's severely weakened state and it still almost killed him.


It also states in _Mechanicus_ that all of the information we were given in regards to the Emperor's battle with the Void Dragon was based on the Dragon's incomplete perspective. The Dragon admitted itself that much of it could have been wrong.


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## Davidicus 40k

Serpion5 said:


> Now, most of what I had written in the past is credible. So yes, I am extremely fucking happy. The imperfections in their character and ambitions, as well as their abilities, is what makes them interesting now. And much more fun to write about.


Now they're faceless robots... with faces! :biggrin:

I get what you mean, and I agree, that's a good thing. Keep Tyranids as the mindless killing *machines* (pun intended), and give the Necrons more... *organic *flaws, such as personality and ambition. I think Chaos should be the most immediate threat, because while Tyranids are frightening, they just aren't here in full force (yet) and we don't know if they'll ever be. They could be lurking just outside the fringes of the galaxy, or they could be in the eastern half of the universe.


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## Deadeye776

While yes it is the Dragon's memory that dictates the fight there's nothing to refute the Emperor possessing the might to destroy the Dragon even if he wanted to. The battle seems to be objective in it's story as it's not really biased towards either fighter. Also I believe both of you are right about the Necron story. My thing is that since it hasn't progressed really in years for the threat they were supposed to represent they were depowered. The C'tan were introduced almost at the physical equivalent of the Gods.

The Nightbriner's awakening and the Decievers machinations was it. The story originally prohibited the Necrons from making their own way. Was this new recap necessary? Hell no. They could have brought back the Outsider and returned the NIghtbringer to full power. The Dragon's release seems a bit like the end of the story so I can see why they wouldn't want. While the story could have been grand and fantastic with the return of power of the C'tan with twist is now how you progress a story without changing the status quo. Basically in my opinon the Necrons have been depowered. They are no longer the imposing threat they use to be. They can be negotiated with and reasoned.Before they were silent unstoppable death.


----------



## LukeValantine

The new fluff is the bees knees I sayeth!


----------



## Serpion5

The release of the Dragon on Mars is also reduced as a threat. 

Because if it does wake up, it will be a shard easier to deal with rather than a very confused and angry full powered star god.  

So that whole endgame scenario is not so game ending anymore.


----------



## Deadeye776

Exactly where as before it would have been the apocalypse now it's a bunch of it's a bunch of mars priests like "Who's that asshole?" I'm guessing that they were depowered as previously stated to bring them down as the only real apocalypse level threats are firstly Chaos and then the tyranids, warp and xenos. To have another xenos threat I guess they thought would be too redundant. Obviously this is speculation. I however liked the original terror of the C'tan and the backstory,but whatever.


----------



## the-ad-man

I don't know how the necrons are any less of a threat, they are waking up on worlds that have been inhabited by other races for millennia, rather than warring factions being kept at boarders of war, you have these new, angry robots popping up almost anywhere! to me, it seems to be a threat on the same level of a daemon incursion; one day everything is fine, then the next day there's this strange obelisk in the middle of town spewing out metal skeletons and green lightning. 
hell, it wouldn't surprise me if there a good few hive cities that have 'haunted lower levels' where the humans have accidentally trespassed into a sleeping tomb where only the caretakers are awake.

the way I think of necrons now is: imagine the imperium is a normal looking wooden chair, then one day, BAM! one of the legs has snapped, revealing a hive of woodworm(or necrons, in this case). 

and on the subject of reasoning with them, are the phearons not bent to be hilariously arrogant and senile? even more so than most imperial governors? 


on the subject of c'tan being weak to the warp, i think it is less like superman and kryptonite as others say. a weakness suggests that the c'tan's power is diminished in the presence of a psyker, or warp based weapon. like how superman couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag near those little green crystals.
to me it seems that warp based weaponry is the only thing that can hurt the c'tan, their performance isn't diminished, but they can be actually wounded by it. 

and unless im wrong, only one c'tan has been reported to be utterly dead; the one who gave the flayer virus.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

the-ad-man said:


> I don't know how the necrons are any less of a threat, they are waking up on worlds that have been inhabited by other races for millennia, rather than warring factions being kept at boarders of war, you have these new, angry robots popping up almost anywhere! to me, it seems to be a threat on the same level of a daemon incursion; one day everything is fine, then the next day there's this strange obelisk in the middle of town spewing out metal skeletons and green lightning.


Half the time they wake up and are like 'dude where's my gauss rifle', thanks to almost an eternity of slumber frying their circuits.

Also the new fluff, some of the awakened tomb worlds wake up and prefer to head back to their founding dynasty to reunite as opposed to destroying everything in sight upon awakening and risking losing many of their own.



the-ad-man said:


> and on the subject of reasoning with them, are the phearons not bent to be hilariously arrogant and senile? even more so than most imperial governors?


All their leaders are rational and not incompetent like your average imperial govna'


----------



## the-ad-man

Malus Darkblade said:


> Half the time they wake up and are like 'dude where's my gauss rifle', thanks to almost an eternity of slumber frying their circuits.
> lack of authority, unexpected civilisation on your turf = many an angry metal skeleton
> Also the new fluff, some of the awakened tomb worlds wake up and prefer to head back to their founding dynasty to reunite as opposed to destroying everything in sight upon awakening and risking losing many of their own.
> I haven't heard of any tomb worlds ignoring 'new' settlers, it seems to be 'GTF off my planet, oxygen breathers!'
> 
> 
> All their leaders are rational and not incompetent like your average imperial govna'
> you can be irrational and competent, their attitude is that of 'we are new masters now, obey or perish, bitches' after all, they claim ownership of all the known galaxy and fuck everyone that stands in their way.


----------



## Deadeye776

Here's my thing. If you look at the Primoridal Chaos powers you know their can be no true "victory." Containment and vigiliance is the closest you can get. You really can't "fight" Chaos physically as the real battle has to be in the warp where their power has only ever been challenged by the Emperor. The Necrons before represented with the C'tan a force equal to that of Chaos (in my opinion) that you could easily see destroying everything. They didn't want a kingdom or any mortal concerns. The star gods wanted prey and followers just like the Chaos Gods. You couldn't reason or talk to them as they were like the Terminator. Now? They can be talked to. Yeah they'll probably be about killing you anyway but you maybe be able to team up with them against something else.

Their ultimate evil in the materium position is what's gone. With the star gods reduced to shards the necrons are totally defeatable. If they don't have the Nightbringer and Void Dragon backing them up, I'll put them up with with the same level threat of an okr,eldar,and just under the tyranid threat. Whle any battle with chaos in the materium inadvertantly fuels Chaos one way or the other, you can beat the necrons. So yeah, to me they are now to be included in the normal xenos threats faced by the imperium. I don't see them as a special case anymore.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

ive just had abit of a look at some new necron fluff and to be honest it seems like they just took WF stuff and applied it to the necrons. now for me this is just sloppy and from what ive seen makes the necrons totally non-necron and mess's with the whole 40k universe. i mean these guys always seemed uber potent but kept under wraps because they just seemed random and sleepy. now im reading whole planets taken over by flayed ones and individual necrons ruling over small empires and all kinds of stuff that blots the 40k universe and in a negative way too.

for me the necrons were better when they were the unstoppable, uncaring foe that they were and the threat of uber-powerful necron gods roaming free in the galaxy gave a sense of a unseen, untraceable threat that could spring up anywhere. now you have necrons behaving almost humanlike and not being necrony i feel the whole 40k universe has been flipped on its head in the sense they needed to stay buried and their full power not being brought to bear so that we always get that feel that they are a unstoppable foe. now i feel they just like any other threat the imperium faces and with so many foes its getting unfeasiable for the imperium to last any longer with so many foes circling them and the imperium having pretty much the worst tech besides orks its getting unrealistic to look at mankind being able to have a galaxy spanning empire.

for me, 40k is hitting abit of a rocky road and unless GW is thinking of bringing back certain special characters to address the balance and create something to boost the imperiums power then im starting to believe GW is losing the plot abit with how it portrays its franchise.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Unknown Primarch said:


> for me, 40k is hitting abit of a rocky road and unless GW is thinking of bringing back certain special characters to address the balance and create something to boost the imperiums power then im starting to believe GW is losing the plot abit with how it portrays its franchise.


:shok: GW has a plot? Seriously when did the wankers ever gave a fuck about a storyline? They have not advance it since 3rd edition. Its all retcons at this point. For the past 10 years its been retcons.


----------



## SoulGazer

Tomb Kings.... In _SPAAAAACE!_


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## Sothot

The story doesn't need to advance because 40k is a setting... Not a story!


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## Deadeye776

Actually it's both. There's is a story to this and he's right. It hasn't advanced, merely been changed multiple times. They haven't taken a step forward in a decade. Only thing being accomplished is explaining the past and then changing it. I wasted my time reading Mechanicum. Who knows what the deal really is now with the Dragon. The set up stories and situations and never resolve them. I'm pretty sure Cypher has been working his way to terra for the better part of 20 years, out time. Here are a list of situations and characters BL have done nothing with:

Kharn The Betrayer
Lucius The Eternal
Typhus the Traveller
Kaldor Draigo ( I know but I've got a feeling we won't see this resolved ever)
The Primarchs
The Emperor's malfunctioning chair
Ephrael Stern 
The Hive Fleet
Armageddon


Those are the ones that just come off the top. The just introduce new plot after plot and the rarely if ever resolve anything.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Just another reason why Warmachine is so appealing these days. It has a Moving Story which is nice.

Doesnt Warhammer have a moving Story? I know at least LotRs has a resolved story which is nice. Even Flames of War has a set outcome and resolve history. Not 40k.


----------



## Deadeye776

I don't think BL is intersted in moving anything forward. 40k seems to do nothing but explain the story first told a quarter of a century ago. The Heresy novels seem to be the main focus. While some factions (Grey Knight,Nightlords,Blood Angels,Space Wolves,White Scars,and Ultramarine). I'm not saying it should be resolved like LOTR but any conflict has an ebb and flow and this one has been a stagnant pond for a long time. Even with the introduction of the Tyranids,Necron,and the C'tan, the Imperium really hasn't done shit as far as change or collapse.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Actually it's both. There's is a story to this and he's right.


40k is a setting, not a progressive storyline - that has always been the case. Ever since 40k was envisioned the Imperium has been upon the precipice of destruction. Obviously things have changed since the late 80's, but the principle remains the same. All new information that has been revealed (The failing of the Golden Throne and the Time of Ending for example) is maintained to have always been the case but only been revealed recently. We are stood at the end of M41 looking back into the 40k setting.

Besides, GW has ten millennia of history to explore without having to push beyond M41. Just accept that 40k will never advance further than M41, the Emperor will never fully die/be revived, the Primarchs will never return Et cetera. The sooner people accept that, the more they can get out of the setting.



Deadeye776 said:


> I wasted my time reading Mechanicum. Who knows what the deal really is now with the Dragon.


Why? Not much has truly changed. The Dragon of Mars is (presumably) now just a _shard_ of the Void Dragon rather than the _whole_ Void Dragon. That doesn't really change anything - the shards are still immensely powerful entities.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

i think the key thing would be to have something significant happen with the high command of the imperium. i mean why hasnt there been another figure like vandire or thor come along and do something that might put abit of excitement into current novels without actually having to be about that individual.

the more i read BL novels the more its pretty much the shame rehash of a story with nothing that has much meaning beyond the actual story its telling. none of them ever give you something that makes you think about in another novels unless its part of a trilogy or something like that. i think they need to get you start thinking how certain things might have implication to other things even if they seem unrelated in that story. alot of the time i think we need wider intrigue to actually make 40k that bit more exciting.
like others have said, why have such great characters (some of the best in any sci-fi) and not develope them into central characters in wider story arcs through several different series's.

me personally i think the top people who pull all the strings at BL are scared to do anything because of a sense that advancing the universe abit might have to spell the end somehow. (which it doesnt) im probably wrong but thats my sense on things and im sticking to it until official denials are posted or the legions of chaos spew out of the eye on a dark crusade. neither im expecting any time soon


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 40k is a setting, not a progressive storyline - that has always been the case. Ever since 40k was envisioned the Imperium has been upon the precipice of destruction. Obviously things have changed since the late 80's, but the principle remains the same. All new information that has been revealed (The failing of the Golden Throne and the Time of Ending for example) is maintained to have always been the case but only been revealed recently. We are stood at the end of M41 looking back into the 40k setting.
> 
> Besides, GW has ten millennia of history to explore without having to push beyond M41. Just accept that 40k will never advance further than M41, the Emperor will never fully die/be revived, the Primarchs will never return Et cetera. The sooner people accept that, the more they can get out of the setting.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Not much has truly changed. The Dragon of Mars is (presumably) now just a _shard_ of the Void Dragon rather than the _whole_ Void Dragon. That doesn't really change anything - the shards are still immensely powerful entities.


now while i fully understand what your saying i think people are of a different mindset now compared to the 80's. people want fast info and new trends all the time and to try and make things feel as stangnant as the imperium isnt good business really. while adults will accept how the story has been set for 20yrs, trying to get new fans (kids) involved in something like this will only be harmed by taking this standpoint. kids will look back at 20yrs worth of lore in a short time, think they know all they need to know and want the next part of the saga where as adults have been getting sort of dripfed the lore and they are more acclimatised to how GW works. and when all is said and done, kids are always gonna be the core demographic to GW's business. how many adults can justify buying new models when they have mortgages and families to finance.

like i said i understand what your saying but times have changed since 40k first came out.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Unknown Primarch said:


> now while i fully understand what your saying i think people are of a different mindset now compared to the 80's. people want fast info and new trends all the time and to try and make things feel as stangnant as the imperium isnt good business really. while adults will accept how the story has been set for 20yrs, trying to get new fans (kids) involved in something like this will only be harmed by taking this standpoint. kids will look back at 20yrs worth of lore in a short time, think they know all they need to know and want the next part of the saga where as adults have been getting sort of dripfed the lore and they are more acclimatised to how GW works. and when all is said and done, kids are always gonna be the core demographic to GW's business. how many adults can justify buying new models when they have mortgages and families to finance.
> 
> like i said i understand what your saying but times have changed since 40k first came out.


BAM this is how I feel. I understand the whole setting thing, but that doesnt fly with the majority of the fan base these days. Also the Story has progress when they did the Campaigns for Armegeddon and 13th Black Crusade. Both live events that dictate how the Story unfolds base on Battle Scores and Reports from mutiple games. Since then...... nothing. Boring. Flash Back battles get old when in the overall scheme of things to most people. Retconing is also a terrible solution as it leads (ALWAYS) to problems in character devolopment, place, and actions. Ctan were Star Gods that couldnt be touch. No there AoK that can get 1 punch by Calgar in C:SM 6th edition. Same as Orks use to have females, now they're genderless spore drifting plant monsters. WTF! Then we have Squats, these guys gave the Crusade such trouble that the Imperium sayed fuck it lets be allies. What happens? Nids eat them. Same Nids to be pwn by 1000 strong UM Chapter. How the hell did the Squats survive 100,000 SMs during the wars?!


----------



## Deadeye776

It's a setting? Then why do they have the Black Library? They tell stories. The 13th Black Crusade saw the death of Eldrad Ulthran. That's a story. He was around in 30k. Now he's not around anymore. That's not something that always was, it's a development. Kaldor Draigo being trapped in the warp is a new development. They keep introducing new components of their "setting" without resolving anthing of the past. Even Marvel eventually told you Wolverine's origin after 30 or so years. 40k the game is a setting but the Black Library is a story my friend. I want the STORY to progress. All we are saying is that while the Heresy series are good, we'd like the setting to change with plot progression not changes. 


Oh, what you said about the Dragon. If you read the description of the Void Dragon you know it's not a shard. Shards don't crawl and fly at the same time. I'm sure if they've turned it (by they I mean the new fluff) into a shard then the Dragon in Mechanicum can't be a shard so then that's a huge waste of time reading it. The shards are a freaking stupid idea and now the Necrons look totally defeatable. I agree completely they've been reduced in stature and so has the Dragon.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> It's a setting? Then why do they have the Black Library? They tell stories.


Yes, Black Library do tell stories... but within the setting and always (from our perspective) via looking into the past. We (as the onlookers) are stood at the immediate end of M41 (or early M42) looking back at the setting which is frozen at 999999.M41. When seemingly new developments occur (Eg. 13th Black Crusade), technically they are just being revealed and have actually already happened.

AD-B says as much himself (Link).

PS. I know AD-B has made more insightful posts about the topic, but can't be arsed to find them right now.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Well hopefully this changes with new people in charge of the franchise in time. Nothing that sit stagnant ever last long in the markets of the West. Thats if PP doesnt start giving GW a run for their money in the near futur.


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## Deadeye776

I'm sorry, what's PP?


----------



## Warlock in Training

Privateer Press


----------



## Rems

Warlock in Training said:


> Well hopefully this changes with new people in charge of the franchise in time. Nothing that sit stagnant ever last long in the markets of the West. Thats if PP doesnt start giving GW a run for their money in the near futur.


D&D would argue otherwise. (Or the Call of Duty series for a non table top example and immensely successful) D&D much like GW's games are comprised of various settings and expansions rather than any ongoing story. 

I don't see any need to further the timeline in 40k when there's 10,000 years of galactic history to play with. At the very least flesh out some more of the major events like the Age of Apostasy before moving on. 

If GW did move the setting on there would be a lot of disgruntled fans. Look at all the rage whenever codex fluff changes, now imagine that for every codex all at once.


----------



## CardShark

i own the new cron codex and i feel like a lot of the fluff on the C'tan you guys are talking about isn't in there where would Igo to find more fluff on C'tan?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

CardShark said:


> where would Igo to find more fluff on C'tan?


-----------------



CardShark said:


> the new cron codex


----------



## Serpion5

Necron codex is about all we have on c'tan shards at the moment. 

There is a brief list of names in this month's white dwarf, but other than that I imagine they are leaving it reasonably vague to allow for a lot of homebrews.


----------



## Deadeye776

Okay the thing is is that we've already heard the stories of the 10k of history within BL setting. They keep changing the history over and over again. Things we new to be true keep changing and not in good ways. Discovering something you thought to be true is a cool change. Finding out that the story has been completely changed and retconned get's annoying. The original story is that the C'tan are Gods to the Necrons who gave them the edge to defeat the Old Ones. Now it seems that the Necrons had the ability to defeat the C'tan. So then why hell even bother with them. If they had the tech to not only defeat beings like the Outsider,Nightbringer,and Void Dragon but imprison them as well why not use that to defeat the Old Ones. Does it make sense a race that powerful couldn't defeat the Old Ones? The C'tan were primordially ancient and incomprehensibly powerful. They fed on stars and were around from the beginning predating the Old Ones. 

With this your telling me that not only could they not travel away from the sun that was killing them but they didn't have the tech to bring a legit battle to the Old Ones. That's what pisses me off about this new fluff. Originally it was a tale that made a deal with an ancient power to defeat a powerfully warp attuned race. Before the Primarchs were supposed to be the closest thing in power to the Emperor. Now a Grey Knight can not only defeat one (and a daemon primarch at that) but humilitate him as well. These changes in what we thought we knew are getting annoying. The description of the Void Dragon isn't what the new fluff is. That's why Mechanicus is a waste of time reading. Go and read it again. You actually think the Emperor's fighting a shard? The book Nightbringer in the Ultramarine series. Does what Ventris and Pasanius confront on that planet sound like a shard? That's why I'm pissed off. If it's a setting, stop telling me lies. If the Nightbringer is a nightmare creature of immeasurable power and terror then leave him like that. Turning him into a shard is bullshit. Same thing with the Void Dragon. You can't read Mechanicus and think this is a shard the Emperor is fighting. The description of it alone negates this. The new fluff is stupid and insulting. Us fans made Mechanicus a high selling book and then you let these ass clowns change one of the coolest secrets we've ever discovered. That's why I'm less than happy with the new story.


----------



## Rems

So because you personally are not happy with some of the recent fluff changes (though it's no where near as dramatic as you have portrayed it as) BL and GW should stop trying to add more to the setting?

C'tan shards are still monstrously powerful. What the Emperor fought, what Uriel faced could easily be shards and not conflict with those stories at all. Perhaps they were rather than one shard, an accumulation of several shards or larger than normal shards? Those two are after all the two most powerful of the C'tan. It stands to reason they would be immensely powerful, even as shards. The new C'tan fluff does not invalidate previous stories on them. 

It was still the C'tan who enabled the Necrons to defeat the Old Ones, read the Codex again. The Old Ones previously held the advantage due to the WebWay and their mastery of the warp. The C'tan could be 'defeated' by the Necrons as they where now more powerful than they had ever been before and the C'tan were purely beings of the materium.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> The original story is that the C'tan are Gods to the Necrons who gave them the edge to defeat the Old Ones.


This hasn't changed. The Necrontyr could not have hoped to defeat the Old Ones by themselves, and were soundly beaten before the C'tan arrived. The C'tan gave the Necrontyr the edge needed to be able to triumph in the War in Heaven. The arrival of the C'tan not only brought the transformation of the Necrontyr into the Necrons but also massive boons in terms of technology, unity and purpose. So whilst the Necontyr could not have (and did not) defeat the Old Ones alone, they probably could not have defeated the C'tan as the Necrontyr either. It took the transformation into the Necrons (and the other boons that allegience to the C'tan brought) to be able to turn upon their allies and shatter them.

On a side note it is even plausable that the Old Ones had defeated the C'tan in ages past (which the Deceiver claims to have been the case).



Deadeye776 said:


> Things we new to be true keep changing *and not in good ways.*


That is entirely your opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the views of others. 



Deadeye776 said:


> With this your telling me that not only could they not travel away from the sun that was killing them but they didn't have the tech to bring a legit battle to the Old Ones.


They could have and did travel away from their homeworld's sun, in fact they colonised much of the galaxy. But it was not a simple case of moving away from the sun and then being free of the morbid existence that had ever plauged the Necrontyr, presumably the negative effects of their homeworld were encoded in their DNA (or something to that effect). Also, yes they did have the legitimate technology to make war upon the Old Ones. They just got soundly beaten.



Deadeye776 said:


> That's what pisses me off about this new fluff. Originally it was a tale that made a deal with an ancient power to defeat a powerfully warp attuned race.


I think you need to re-read the new lore, because that is still the case.



Deadeye776 said:


> Before the Primarchs were supposed to be the closest thing in power to the Emperor. Now a Grey Knight can not only defeat one (and a daemon primarch at that) but humilitate him as well.


Again, that is generally still the case. Grey Knights defeating a Daemon Primarch is not unprecedented: The First War for Armageddon.



Deadeye776 said:


> These changes in what we thought we knew are getting annoying. The description of the Void Dragon isn't what the new fluff is. That's why Mechanicus is a waste of time reading. Go and read it again. You actually think the Emperor's fighting a shard? The book Nightbringer in the Ultramarine series. Does what Ventris and Pasanius confront on that planet sound like a shard? That's why I'm pissed off.


I don't see the issue with them just being shards. Shards are still beings of _"near-unlimited power"_ as the new lore states. I don't get your issue.



Deadeye776 said:


> You can't read Mechanicus and think this is a shard the Emperor is fighting. The description of it alone negates this. The new fluff is stupid and insulting. Us fans made Mechanicus a high selling book and then you let these ass clowns change one of the coolest secrets we've ever discovered. That's why I'm less than happy with the new story.


The description of the Dragon does not negate it being a shard whatsoever. The shards of the C'tan are not some pathetically weak and beatable entities, they are incredibly powerful and (i'll quite from the codex once again) beings of _"near-unlimited power"_...

Honestly, I don't think that any of your above arguments are valid. Especially as you seem to be so oppossed to changes within the existing lore, yet simultaneously argue that you wish to see the entire lore drastically changed/furthered.


----------



## Serpion5

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This hasn't changed. The Necrontyr could not have hoped to defeat the Old Ones by themselves, and were soundly beaten before the C'tan arrived. The C'tan gave the Necrontyr the edge needed to be able to triumph in the War in Heaven. The arrival of the C'tan not only brought the transformation of the Necrontyr into the Necrons but also massive boons in terms of technology, unity and purpose. So whilst the Necontyr could not have (and did not) defeat the Old Ones alone, they probably could not have defeated the C'tan as the Necrontyr either. It took the transformation into the Necrons (and the other boons that allegience to the C'tan brought) to be able to turn upon their allies and shatter them.
> 
> On a side note it is even plausable that the Old Ones had defeated the C'tan in ages past (which the Deceiver claims to have been the case).
> 
> 
> 
> That is entirely your opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the views of others.
> 
> 
> 
> They could have and did travel away from their homeworld's sun, in fact they colonised much of the galaxy. But it was not a simple case of moving away from the sun and then being free of the morbid existence that had ever plauged the Necrontyr, presumably the negative effects of their homeworld were encoded in their DNA (or something to that effect). Also, yes they did have the legitimate technology to make war upon the Old Ones. They just got soundly beaten.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to re-read the new lore, because that is still the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that is generally still the case. Grey Knights defeating a Daemon Primarch is not unprecedented: The First War for Armageddon.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see the issue with them just being shards. Shards are still beings of _"near-unlimited power"_ as the new lore states. I don't get your issue.
> 
> 
> 
> The description of the Dragon does not negate it being a shard whatsoever. The shards of the C'tan are not some pathetically weak and beatable entities, they are incredibly powerful and (i'll quite from the codex once again) beings of _"near-unlimited power"_...
> 
> Honestly, I don't think that any of your above arguments are valid. Especially as you seem to be so oppossed to changes within the existing lore, yet simultaneously argue that you wish to see the entire lore drastically changed/furthered.


:goodpost: 

CotE, I have never loved you as much as I do right now. :biggrin:


----------



## Deadeye776

Okay I'll take it from the top again. The new lore is pretty much after the war, the Necrons got hip to the plans of the C'tan becoming slaves and rose up and defeated them. The shattered the Necrodermis of the C'tan into shards which can now be utilized for power.With that everything else you said is negated. The C'tan shards are weapons just like the Avatars of Khaine utilize his essence to become more powerful. The shards do not go around on worlds like Pavonis confronting Uriel Ventris. If you read Nightbringer you know when he woke up he had a few Necrons with him and they sure as shit didn't seem like they were there telling him what to do. Why would they need to utilize a Nightbringer shard when confronted with two non-psyker SM's which they could have easily handled? Answer is that the Nightbringer was not a shard and so that makes the book completely retconned. Next we have Mechanicus. You hear a story of the Emperor from the Dragons dreams dreaming about crawling and flying at the same time. Does that sound like something a fragment or shard does? They give in the description of it everything but the one word that would make it relevant to the new fluff. Oh,by the way it was a shard. It was a creature of immense power,not an imprisoned entity. So either our medevil times were directly after the War in Heaven or this whole story is moot as the Void Dragon should have been a shard the Emperor discovered and utilized. 

You discuss that the C'tan are still immensly powerful? Really? What race in 40k has ever defeated their native gods? Orks? no. Eldar? No, even the greatest hero Eldanesh fell before Khaine.Chaos? Nope, Skarbrand was owned when he took a swing at Khorne. So this dying race looking for vengance encounters primordial energy beings who give them the edge they need because before that their war effort was as dismal as the world economy and out of nowhere they defeat them? Before the story was the star gods were tricked into turning on each other since their power at the time was literally at their peak. The only beings to take them on were Eldar Gods and Old Ones. So out of nowhere the Necrons rise to this level?Bullshit. The tech they had before was thanks to the Void Dragon. So now what? They just up and defeated creatures that defeated beings they previously coudn't stand against?That is Matt Ward (my new word for bullshit). 

Oh you want to talk about GK's taking on Angron? It was a full freaking COMPANY OF GREY KNIGHTS IN TERMINATOR ARMOR and the majority of them died doing it. To add to that Space Wolves I'm sure weren't just sitting back and drinking meade. You compare that to ONE GK not only defeating the Daemon Primarch one on one, but holding him down to carve his previous GK's name inot this bastards heart? Where the hell does that Matt Ward come from? When has a Primarch ever been defeated by ONE space marine? Ragnar? He threw the spear of Russ at Magnus,a weapon made by the Emperor. This new fluff makes absolutely no sense. Gods being defeated and imprisoned by a race with no previous abilities in this vacinity. If they had been smashing the Old Ones and then imprisoned the C'tan I would be like yeah, Chaos number one but to be honest the Necrons are close to if not tying them. But the fact they needed help and then became ultra powerful is Matt Ward and deep down when the door closes at night you know it's Matt Ward too.


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## Serpion5

All I can see is butthurt with _not even an attempt_ to glean something positive. 

You have a very one sided view, and have refuted several perfectly valid arguments simply because you personally didn't like the change. 

I could argue the point with you Deadeye, but frankly I'd only be repeating what myself and several others have already said. 


Have a nice day.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Im gonna try a little longer _Serp_. :clapping:



Deadeye776 said:


> Okay I'll take it from the top again. The new lore is pretty much after the war, the Necrons got hip to the plans of the C'tan becoming slaves and rose up and defeated them. The shattered the Necrodermis of the C'tan into shards which can now be utilized for power.With that everything else you said is negated.


I don't quite see how.



Deadeye776 said:


> The C'tan shards are weapons just like the Avatars of Khaine utilize his essence to become more powerful. The shards do not go around on worlds like Pavonis confronting Uriel Ventris. If you read Nightbringer you know when he woke up he had a few Necrons with him and they sure as shit didn't seem like they were there telling him what to do. Why would they need to utilize a Nightbringer shard when confronted with two non-psyker SM's which they could have easily handled? Answer is that the Nightbringer was not a shard and so that makes the book completely retconned.


When _Nightbringer_ was written, the shard-lore did not exist. Therefore Mcneill wrote the book with the _actual_ Nightbringer as part of the plot. However, the new shard-lore can easily be applied to the novel _Nightbringer_. 

The novel was from the perspective of the Astartes, and the Astartes were not aware of what the Nightbringer was. How would they know whether it was a C'tan, a C'tan shard, or just some random xenos creature? They didn't, and thats the point. So applying the new shard-lore to the novel _Nightbringer_ is no problem whatsoever. 



Deadeye776 said:


> he had a few Necrons with him and they sure as shit didn't seem like they were there telling him what to do.


The new lore suggests that the C'tan shards do not exactly do the bidding of the Necrons, rather they are unleashed upon their foes. Or in the case of the Nightbringer shard, it was likely just released accidently or otherwise when the Ultramarines came upon it.



Deadeye776 said:


> Next we have Mechanicus. You hear a story of the Emperor from the Dragons dreams dreaming about crawling and flying at the same time. Does that sound like something a fragment or shard does?


Does it not? I'll repeat myself yet again: The C'tan shards are beings of _"near-unlimited power."_ You don't seem to be grasping that concept.



Deadeye776 said:


> They give in the description of it everything but the one word that would make it relevant to the new fluff. Oh,by the way it was a shard. It was a creature of immense power,not an imprisoned entity. So either our medevil times were directly after the War in Heaven or this whole story is moot as the Void Dragon should have been a shard the Emperor discovered and utilized.


The new lore leaves wiggle room to suggest that not all C'tan shards were actually imprisoned. Therefore a shard of the Void Dragon could have been afoot in the galaxy, and eventually ended up on Terra where it was confronted by the Emperor. See? With a bit of common sense we've solved the problem!

Oh, and our Medieval era was millions of years after the War in Heaven. 



Deadeye776 said:


> You discuss that the C'tan are still immensly powerful? Really? What race in 40k has ever defeated their native gods? Orks? no. Eldar? No, even the greatest hero Eldanesh fell before Khaine.Chaos? Nope, Skarbrand was owned when he took a swing at Khorne. So this dying race looking for vengance encounters primordial energy beings who give them the edge they need because before that their war effort was as dismal as the world economy and out of nowhere they defeat them?


Yes, the C'tan are still immensley powerful in the new lore (both as _whole_ entities and as _shards_). It is more of a testament to the power of the Necrons than a sign of weakness for the new-lore C'tan that they were shattered.

And its not as if the C'tan were shattered with ease, the rebellion against the C'tan ensured that the Necrons could not have stood against the rising civilisation of the Eldar, which speaks volumes in itself.



Deadeye776 said:


> They just up and defeated creatures that defeated beings they previously coudn't stand against?That is Matt Ward (my new word for bullshit).


You are overlooking an integral part of this tale: The transformation of the Necrontyr (who couldn't have defeated the Old Ones or C'tan) into the Necrons (who alongside the C'tan were able to defeat the Old Ones, and who managed to shatter the C'tan with the advantages the C'tan granted them).



Deadeye776 said:


> Oh you want to talk about GK's taking on Angron? It was a full freaking COMPANY OF GREY KNIGHTS IN TERMINATOR ARMOR and the majority of them died doing it.


It is still a precedent. The Daemon Primarchs are not unbeatable, that was my point.



Deadeye776 said:


> When has a Primarch ever been defeated by ONE space marine?


Well as far as we know, never before. But Draigo is hardly just _"one space marine."_ Look, im not exactly Matt Ward's biggest fan, but the lore he has written is justifiable.



Deadeye776 said:


> But the fact they needed help and then became ultra powerful is Matt Ward and deep down when the door closes at night you know it's Matt Ward too.


When they were the Necrontyr and fought the first War in Heaven they did need help and could not defeat the Old Ones. In the second War in Heaven when they become the Necrons, they became much more powerful and eventually did defeat the Old Ones (obviously with the aid of the C'tan, but their transformation into a more unified, driven, technological and immortal race should not be overlooked). This was the case in the old lore as well by the way.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Was I once that naive and misinformed CoTE before my new codex came out? >.<


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## Sothot

You should reread mechanicus and afterwards ask yourself "if this was just a shard, what would the unbroken c'tan be capable of?" And allow yourself the religious dread and awe that accompanies that statement. I only play Necrons, and i'm stoked with the new fluff. I never wanted to play c'tan before because frankly, "zomg god power" was lame when it died turn one. With the shard lore, I can happily and fluffy enjoy a c'tan on the table. And laugh more easily when it dies turn 1.


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## Davidicus 40k

I can understand how "shard" may inherently suggest fractured, fragmented power - and it does - but if I have a shard of a C'Tan, I have something of _near-unlimited power_. That probably means if I were able to collect the other shards of a C'Tan, I'd have _unlimited unlimited power, waaay over 9,000_, but that will probably never happen. Still, the idea of switching to shards in no way invalidates any of the old lore, and it may create new opportunities. CotE explained it well, as always.


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## Deadeye776

I'm not going to go around in circles. In no way was it ever said that what the Emperor and Uriel Ventris faced were shards. I know the shard lore didn't exist with this. What I'm saying is that what they faced were not shards. Shards didn't exist when those books came out. That changed. Originally Kaela Mensha Khaine shattered the Nightbringer.Either that didn't happen or the Nightbringer was defeated twice and shattered. The shards are described as weapons that can be uitlized with different properties:

Manifestations of Power

The shards of the C'tan have several reality-warping powers, trough each shard is severely limited in the powers they can use, among them are:3
Entropic Touch - The C'tan shard's rotten grasp decays metal on contact. 
Gaze of Death - The C'tan shard drains the life from all in the vicinity, with eyes blazing with dark energies.
Grand Illusion - By weaving a glamour of deception, the C'tan shard prevents the foe from seeing the true disposition of his allies.
Lord of Fire - The C'tan shard is a being of living flame, capable of controlling the fires of the enemy.
Moulder of Worlds - The C'tan shard showers his enemies with boulders of tortured rock.
Pyreshards - The C'tan shard conjures specks of blazing black matter and directs them against his enemies.
Sentient Singularity - The presence of the C'tan shard destabilises gravitational forces, and disrupts engines, teleport beams and warp jumps.
Swarm of Spirit Dust - The C'tan shard is hidden from the gaze of his enemies, by a cloud of swirling darkness.
Time's Arrow - The C'tan shard mutates the flow of causation and remoulds the temporal stream, to send his foe into the darkness from before time was time.
Transdimensional Thunderbolt - From the outstretched palm of the C'tan shard, a bolt of crackling energy is projected.
Writhing Worldscape - The presence of the C'tan shard revolts the natural world, the very ground writhing and shaking as the physical laws holding reality together are undone.

So with this the description of the Nightbringer and Void Dragon in both the aforementioned books no longer fit the current fluff. THAT's what I'm saying. There's no way what the Emperor faced was the Void Dragon's shard. The shards can be picked up and utilized. While some may be difficult to control and maybe impossible to destroy the battle the Emperor went through doesn't fit the new description of the shards. The Dragon in the Noctis remembers roaming the stars and feeding on them for countless eons. The shards apparently don't remember anything about their previous lies. If you enjoy the new fluff, good for you. Some people like Matt Wards stuff as an example, so to each his own. But there's no way you can't tell me that the new fluff makes the stories written in the past a waste of time to read. The characters have changed. Why the hell would the Emperor imprison something that ALREADY BEEN IMPRISONED? Like I said the shards are weapons that can be utilized. The Emperor fought something that WASN'T imprisoned and was preying on humans. I don't see how you think what he fough was a shard. The description of these things reads like they are weapons of massive power.




p.s. If you believe that with the rationalization that one grey knight is the eqivalent to an entire war effort is justifiable then this is my last post in the matter. In terms of LOTR that's like in the first movie where you see an army of elves and men take on Sauron and barely win. Then in the next and final scene Aragon kicks the doors into Mordor,grabs the eye, and defeats it and carves "Boromir and Theoden" in his ass. That seem justifiable?


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## SoulGazer

I dunno, my Shard of the Nightbringer tends to dice up Space Marines pretty well on the tabletop, same as in the books. I love that guy. :victory:

As for the lore, I think it's possible for the Emperor to have defeated a Shard of the Dragon. It wasn't easy, as _Mechanicus_ indicates, and it's probably true that the Emperor could not have destroyed the essence of the C'tan since that's really hard to do. However, I also think he didn't want to shatter the Necrodermis since he wanted the Dragon for his own purposes. The Necrons are perfectly capable of defeating and enslaving the C'tan Shards, so the Emperor could probably do it too, if on a more limited scale.

Also, it's entirely possible that this particular Shard of the Void Dragon _only has_ the far away memories of the entire C'tan itself. If this shard remembers traveling the stars, perhaps it's the only thing he really can remember and is constantly distracted by it, unable to concentrate on fighting something like the Emperor or perhaps lacks the part of the Void Dragon that cares that much about being free.

I'm not a fan of how vague the new C'tan fluff is, however they did leave it open enough to where we can make our own assumptions. My only fear is that when the community finally comes to a consensus on certain things, like that current status of the Dragon, GW will simply retcon it to something more to their liking at the time.


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## Deadeye776

Okay then. I liked the old C'tan fluff,but I guess it was just me. I think they had a lot of potential with the original story.


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## Unknown Primarch

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay then. I liked the old C'tan fluff,but I guess it was just me. I think they had a lot of potential with the original story.


agreed. and im quite enjoying how the others are saying they giving perfectly reasonable answers with their views but mocking yours because its not how they see it. 

this shard business is lame and is the chinese copied dvd of a bluray avatar of khaine. pretty unimaginitive to be honest. i like the new necrons characters but some of their fluff is abit stupid (owning thors head?!) but this shard thing doesnt make sense.

how do you have a shard of the deciever roaming around doing whatever it wants when they are supposed to be controlled or at least able to be harnessed by a necron lord. if they somehow broke their necrodermis, which would mean the ctan not having control of its living body, how the hell did the deciever absorb that assassins dagger. 

by all means add something new to the necrons but having their gods under the control of the minions is just absurd. can you imagine khorne being the bitch of one of his daemons?! no f**king chance. think about guys!


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## SoulGazer

Unknown Primarch said:


> by all means add something new to the necrons but having their gods under the control of the minions is just absurd. can you imagine khorne being the bitch of one of his daemons?! no f**king chance. think about guys!


Actually daemons do occasionally try to usurp the Chaos gods. This was described in the 3rd Grey Knights book, I think. I could be wrong but I do remember a war being mentioned when someone tried to overthrow Khorne. They were not successful.(Duh)

The Chaos gods are nothing but jumped-up daemons anyways.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm not going to go around in circles. In no way was it ever said that what the Emperor and Uriel Ventris faced were shards.


But then (if I remember correctly) no where was it clearly stated that they faced a C'tan... it certainly wasn't the case in _Mechanicum_ - the word C'tan did not appear at all.

You said it yourself, it wasn't implied or stated they were shards because the shard-lore did not exist then. When the novels were written, an _actual_ C'tan was a part of the plots (I have already acknowledged that by the way). But now that the new lore has been released, it has invalidated the potential of those entities in _Nightbringer_ and _Mechanicum_ being _actual_ C'tan. Instead we now know that they were _shards of C'tan_, which does not pose any lore issues whatsoever - it fits perfectly into the plots of both books.



Deadeye776 said:


> So with this the description of the Nightbringer and Void Dragon in both the aforementioned books no longer fit the current fluff. THAT's what I'm saying. There's no way what the Emperor faced was the Void Dragon's shard. The shards can be picked up and utilized.


The C'tan shards can be _"picked up and utilized."_ Where are you getting that from? Within their necrodermis shells they appear exactly how the _actual_ C'tan of the previous _Codex: Necrons_ appeared. In fact even the same models are used on the TT.



Deadeye776 said:


> While some may be difficult to control and maybe impossible to destroy the battle the Emperor went through doesn't fit the new description of the shards. The Dragon in the Noctis remembers roaming the stars and feeding on them for countless eons. The shards apparently don't remember anything about their previous lies.


Actually, they do remember things from their previous existence (as a _whole_ C'tan). It's right there in the codex:

_"...Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - *and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed*..."_ - _Codex: Necrons, page 40._

Its right there in black and white.



Deadeye776 said:


> Why the hell would the Emperor imprison something that ALREADY BEEN IMPRISONED? Like I said the shards are weapons that can be utilized. The Emperor fought something that WASN'T imprisoned and was preying on humans. I don't see how you think what he fough was a shard. The description of these things reads like they are weapons of massive power.


You obviously did not read my last post, because I have already covered this:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The new lore leaves wiggle room to suggest that not all C'tan shards were actually imprisoned. Therefore a shard of the Void Dragon could have been afoot in the galaxy, and eventually ended up on Terra where it was confronted by the Emperor. See? With a bit of common sense we've solved the problem!


There ya go. Problem solved. Not all of the C'tan shards were actually imprisoned by the Necrons.



Deadeye776 said:


> p.s. If you believe that with the rationalization that one grey knight is the eqivalent to an entire war effort is justifiable then this is my last post in the matter. In terms of LOTR that's like in the first movie where you see an army of elves and men take on Sauron and barely win. Then in the next and final scene Aragon kicks the doors into Mordor,grabs the eye, and defeats it and carves "Boromir and Theoden" in his ass. That seem justifiable?


Again, you have overlooked a critical factor. It was not an Imperial army (including Grey Knights) against Angron. It was an Imperial army (including Grey Knights) against a vast daemonic horde, a significant amount of Khorne Berserkers and Angron.

Whilst we don't know the specifics of the fight that brought Mortarion and Dragio together, it is not outside the realms of possibility for the Grand Master of Grey Knights (therefore likely the most powerful and knowledgable daemon hunter in the galaxy) to defeat a *Daemon*.


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## Serpion5

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm not going to go around in circles. In no way was it ever said that what the Emperor and Uriel Ventris faced were shards. I know the shard lore didn't exist with this. What I'm saying is that what they faced were not shards. Shards didn't exist when those books came out. That changed. Originally Kaela Mensha Khaine shattered the Nightbringer.Either that didn't happen or the Nightbringer was defeated twice and shattered. The shards are described as weapons that can be uitlized with different properties:


Time of publication shouldn't be a factor. CotE has given perfectly valid reasons as to why the new lore can be applied and it shouldn't take a super genius to figure that out. 

And on Khaine vs the Nightbringer; yes Khaine did win, but he did not shatter the Nightbringer itself, he only shattered its necrodermis shell. The Nightbringer reformed into a new body afterwards just as strong as it ever was. This seems to be a misinterpretation on your part. 

It wasn't until the necron rebellion that the Nightbringer's essence was shattered as with the other c'tan. And presumably one such shard came to be contained on Pavonis.


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## Lux

This brings up an interesting time line question, did the battle with Khaine happen prior or post of the necron rebellion?

As far as I know, the Necron army pushed the Old Ones back to their most deepest fortresses, and during this period of necron dominance is when the rebellion occurred (or in older fluff when the star gods feasted upon one another).

The battle of which Khaine and the Nightbringer fought one another in, its never given a objective date is it?


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## Serpion5

Lux said:


> This brings up an interesting time line question, did the battle with Khaine happen prior or post of the necron rebellion?
> 
> As far as I know, the Necron army pushed the Old Ones back to their most deepest fortresses, and during this period of necron dominance is when the rebellion occurred (or in older fluff when the star gods feasted upon one another).
> 
> The battle of which Khaine and the Nightbringer fought one another in, its never given a objective date is it?


No, but we would assume it happened before the necron rebellion, as the Nightbringer was fighting alongside the necrons during that battle.


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## Lux

I thought once the rebellion occurred, the necrons forced the shards to do their bidding, thus it could have been post rebellion as well going by the fact that it fought along side the necrons.


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## Warlock in Training

I say post too since Eldar defeated the Necs and Khain beating the Shard of the Night Bringer explains the Necs not being able to hold their own and being beaten back.


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## Sothot

The codex also states that not all shards were imprisoned and accounted for. Presumably, if a shard is destroyed in battle (tabletop) it's essence escapes to whereabouts unknown and behold, another shard roaming the galaxy of it's own accord. The Necrons are badass enough to imprison their gods, it's not an insult to the c'tan as it is testament to the necrons capability. 
Also, Aragorn did kick down the doors of mordor and proclaim manliness over Sauron. Good timing thanks to some hobbits, sure, but weak example is weak.


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## SoulGazer

Warlock in Training said:


> I say post too since Eldar defeated the Necs and Khain beating the Shard of the Night Bringer explains the Necs not being able to hold their own and being beaten back.


The Eldar did not defeat the Necrons, the Necrons were just too weak to fight them after suffering tremendous losses in their rebellion against the C'tan. The Necrons went into stasis because they knew they could simply outlast the Eldar and didn't have to fight them at all.

And Khaine didn't actually do any damage to the Nightbringer itself, just blew up one of it's shells, which it had many of.

Since the Nightbringer had to have been whole at the time to even fight Khaine, I'd say this took place before the rebellion, possibly at the end of the Old One's reign when the Eldar were becoming more powerful but had yet to control most of the galaxy. The Necrons were still the top power in the galaxy at the time. Perhaps Khaine defeating the Nightbringer gave the Necrons the idea that the C'tan could be beaten in the first place? The Necrons would have seen for the first time that their gods were not invincible. That would be interesting.


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## Serpion5

I am saying pre-rebellion simply because otherwise would be akin to greater daemons fighting chaos gods, and we already have an example of how that would go down.


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## Deadeye776

Okay, So the Nightbringer was defeated twice being shattered once by Khaine and one by the Necrons into shard. How can you look at that and not say it diminishes the C'tan. You think being taken by a God and then getting your ass kicked by your own minions is a come up.Don't give me that bullshit by saying Khaine didn't really hurt the Nightbringer because it was just his shell that was shattered. Getting your ass kicked is getting your ass kicked. Just because you don't die doesn't means it's not an L. Oh, by the way, I seem to remember that's how Khaine later got his own ass kicked by Slaanesh by having his body shattered. Now he's stacking skulls at the bottom of Khorne's throne. 

While yes I'll admit they aren't picked up and uitilized there's no way you look at this new fluff and don't think it's completely destroyed the C'tan fluff. Besides being incredibly stupid have fragments roam around with fractious memories (what's the point of this anyway, they might as well have destroyed them) it's really done nothing for the Necrons. Before this change the Necrons technologically were already above the other races in 40k. They've just switched that instead of being mindless with some have limited brain function this has instead been given to the C'tan. So apparently instead of the Old Ones being a galactic power and dominant the Necrons were running things and were jealous of the Old Ones. They tried to start a fight and got owned like a Michael Vick pitt bull. So now the empire of the Old Ones has been diminished and that's 2 races now that have been diminished so the Necrons could be dominant.

So originally they were some race living on planet getting poisoned by their sun who went after the Old Ones out of jealousy and contempt. They teamed up with the C'tan who weren't aware of life yet as they'd been feeding on stars when the Necrons discovered them and offered a deal once the C'tan started slaughtering them that the Old Ones offered a more delectiable life force. From this now it's been changed to an intergalactic power that was looking for an external threat to unify them and found the Old Ones for whatever reason,oh yeah they were immortal. They lose and then the Deciever says that the C'tan to have been defeated by the Old Ones so that they should team up,because the C'tan needed the help as well. Getting hip to the C'tan's ultimate plans the Silent King unleashes unimaginable power that even the c'tan couldn't handle (why this didn't happen against the Old Ones originally who knows) and destroys them into shards which now roam the galaxy with partial memory of who they are and specific powers. 

The new fluff makes absolutely no sense and deep down everyone knows it. It's a stupid as SPOILER ALERT FOR OUTCAST DEAD The Emperor taking out the Thunder Warriors because he wanted the credit for unifying earth.Like the citizens were going to be like "oh yeah screw the emperor,let's elect a thunder warrior to the throne." The new fluff being created is being done ridiculously and destroying the characters and story. You say that it's now a precedent Kaldor Draigo taking out a Primarch. Even if it would have been possible for a chaplain to take out a Normal Primarch your talking about a Thousand Year old Daemon Primarch in good with Nurgle himself. When Angron was defeated the entire GK terminator squad engaged him and almost all of them died doing it. Your saying that it makes sense one not only beat him but was able to humiliate him as well? These new changes in the fluff are becoming ridiculous. 

Oh by the way. The last scene in LOTR with Aragorn definitely the only thing weak is your memory Sothot. He was about to die if the ring hadn't been destroyed. It wasn't even Sauron he was fighting but a large troll. So yeah it's a good example.


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## Serpion5

> Okay, So the Nightbringer was defeated twice being shattered once by Khaine and one by the Necrons into shard. How can you look at that and not say it diminishes the C'tan. You think being taken by a God and then getting your ass kicked by your own minions is a come up.Don't give me that bullshit by saying Khaine didn't really hurt the Nightbringer because it was just his shell that was shattered. Getting your ass kicked is getting your ass kicked. Just because you don't die doesn't means it's not an L. Oh, by the way, I seem to remember that's how Khaine later got his own ass kicked by Slaanesh by having his body shattered. Now he's stacking skulls at the bottom of Khorne's throne.


Getting your body destroyed means nothing if you can just form a new one later. Any victory conceded is hollow and temporary at best. And Khaine is not stacking skulls, his fragments lay dormant in the craftwoprlds until the exarchs and farseers awaken them. How the hell did you come to that answer?



> While yes I'll admit they aren't picked up and uitilized there's no way you look at this new fluff and don't think it's completely destroyed the C'tan fluff. Besides being incredibly stupid have fragments roam around with fractious memories (what's the point of this anyway, they might as well have destroyed them) it's really done nothing for the Necrons. Before this change the Necrons technologically were already above the other races in 40k. They've just switched that instead of being mindless with some have limited brain function this has instead been given to the C'tan. So apparently instead of the Old Ones being a galactic power and dominant the Necrons were running things and were jealous of the Old Ones. They tried to start a fight and got owned like a Michael Vick pitt bull. So now the empire of the Old Ones has been diminished and that's 2 races now that have been diminished so the Necrons could be dominant.


The c'tan are fractured, but far from mindless. A rogue shard is still capable of untold devastation. Previous lore about the c'tan is testament to this, we have a Nightbringer shard that threatened a Dark Eldar kabal and an Ultramarines strike force, we have a Deceiver Shard that has potentially infiltrated the mechanicum, we have a Dragon Shard that shaped the Mechanicum itself, we have (maybe?) another Deceiver shard that potentially engineered the rise of Abaddon the Despoiler. 

All the previous lore attributed to the workings of c'tan can be attributed now to their shards. Never before in 40k have they gone on a massive orgy of destruction so the direct power comparison isn't an issue. What we've read is well within the capability of a c'tan shard. Despite their fragmented personalities, they are far from being described as stupid or mindless. 



> So originally they were some race living on planet getting poisoned by their sun who went after the Old Ones out of jealousy and contempt. They teamed up with the C'tan who weren't aware of life yet as they'd been feeding on stars when the Necrons discovered them and offered a deal once the C'tan started slaughtering them that the Old Ones offered a more delectiable life force. From this now it's been changed to an intergalactic power that was looking for an external threat to unify them and found the Old Ones for whatever reason,oh yeah they were immortal. They lose and then the Deciever says that the C'tan to have been defeated by the Old Ones so that they should team up,because the C'tan needed the help as well. Getting hip to the C'tan's ultimate plans the Silent King unleashes unimaginable power that even the c'tan couldn't handle (why this didn't happen against the Old Ones originally who knows) and destroys them into shards which now roam the galaxy with partial memory of who they are and specific powers.


To clarify for perhaps the billionth time, neither the c'tan nor the necrons could defeat the Old Ones on their own. 

The c'tan, energy vampires with limited numbers and a tangible grasp on the workings of the warp. 

The necrontyr, a short lived race with advanced technology but no understanding of the warp. 

As you can see, neither of them could defeat a galaxy spanning empire of powerful psykers with warp based weaponry and technology on their own. 

When they team up however, they became: 

An immortal race of unliving undying warriors with the knowledge of the gods at their command and the gods themselves at their side. Suddenly the upper hand has switched sides. Afterward, the necrons decide that they don't want to live under the rule of their gods and why should they? 



> The new fluff makes absolutely no sense and deep down everyone knows it. It's a stupid as SPOILER ALERT FOR OUTCAST DEAD The Emperor taking out the Thunder Warriors because he wanted the credit for unifying earth.Like the citizens were going to be like "oh yeah screw the emperor,let's elect a thunder warrior to the throne." The new fluff being created is being done ridiculously and destroying the characters and story. You say that it's now a precedent Kaldor Draigo taking out a Primarch. Even if it would have been possible for a chaplain to take out a Normal Primarch your talking about a Thousand Year old Daemon Primarch in good with Nurgle himself. When Angron was defeated the entire GK terminator squad engaged him and almost all of them died doing it. Your saying that it makes sense one not only beat him but was able to humiliate him as well? These new changes in the fluff are becoming ridiculous.


The new fluff makes perfect sense and deep down you know it (or maybe it's just massive failure of imagination on your part). The Emperor created the Thunder Warriors for one purpose and there was no need to keep them. The astartes were his true soldiers. 

And it isn't unprecedented for a GK squad to banish a daemon prince. It is what they were fucking made to do, so it isn't hard to believe that the best of them couldn't do it alone! Remember Draigo was cursed to wander the warp for eternity, for all we know Tzeentch engineered Mortarion's fall into the bargain. 

I will say it again, you simply refuse to see anything positive here simply because all you want is to complain. And yet, the fact that you still stick with this hobby seems to point to what exactly? :scratchhead: Hmm, perhaps the fact that you know this is still better than any other game system's fluff? :wink:


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> Getting your body destroyed means nothing if you can just form a new one later. Any victory conceded is hollow and temporary at best. And Khaine is not stacking skulls, his fragments lay dormant in the craftwoprlds until the exarchs and farseers awaken them. How the hell did you come to that answer?
> 
> 
> It's stated that not all of the eldar gods are actually dead specifically Isha,Khaine,and Cegorach. While Nurgle claimed Isha after hearing her cries and defeating Slaanesh. Khaine then defeated Slaanesh claiming Khaine spirit for himself thinking that no warrior should be under some he/she skank's thrall but he was driven into the material realm in the battle and that's how the shards of him came about. So yeah, more than likely he's stacking skulls on the throne for his new boss while his physical shards are utilized by the eldar avatars. It's in the Eldar Codex. The part about him stacking skulls is just what I figure he's doing these days.
> 
> 
> The c'tan are fractured, but far from mindless. A rogue shard is still capable of untold devastation. Previous lore about the c'tan is testament to this, we have a Nightbringer shard that threatened a Dark Eldar kabal and an Ultramarines strike force, we have a Deceiver Shard that has potentially infiltrated the mechanicum, we have a Dragon Shard that shaped the Mechanicum itself, we have (maybe?) another Deceiver shard that potentially engineered the rise of Abaddon the Despoiler.
> 
> 
> All the previous lore attributed to the workings of c'tan can be attributed now to their shards. Never before in 40k have they gone on a massive orgy of destruction so the direct power comparison isn't an issue. What we've read is well within the capability of a c'tan shard. Despite their fragmented personalities, they are far from being described as stupid or mindless.
> 
> Never before have they gone on an orgy of destruction? You mean like the Nightbringer imprinting his image of terror to inspire the fear of death. That's a capability of a shard?Taking on the emperor one on one even though losing but being incapable of being destroyed by the most powerful psyker in the universe when you couldn't defeat the old ones in complete form is now the capability of a shard? Yeah how does that make sense,pal. Your telling me a weakened "shard" can take on the most powerful psyker in the universe and still not be destroyed, only imprisoned as it says in Mechanicus destroying it wasn't a possibility but when it was at full power it still couldn't take the Old Ones?
> 
> To clarify for perhaps the billionth time, neither the c'tan nor the necrons could defeat the Old Ones on their own.
> 
> To clarify originally the C'tan didn't give a crap about defeating anoyone they were star vampires. The only became aware of living creatures in dealing with the Necrontyr and then in turn becoming aware of the Old Ones. The power of the c'tan caused the old ones to create the races of the eldar,kork, as well as other warp sensitive races.
> 
> The c'tan, energy vampires with limited numbers and a tangible grasp on the workings of the warp.
> 
> The old Ones hardly seemed in control because they had vast numbers. It was about power from the beginning. The Old Ones were more powerful than any other sentient race in the galaxy. The c'tan didn't need any grasp on the warp as not only did it not pertain to their existence they don't have a presence in the warp. They were sentient in the beginning of our universe which would predate any warp creature. Their understanding of technology (the Void Dragon) and eventually the sentient races minds (The Nightbringer imprinting fear of death on almost everything) shows that in the materium they reigned supreme.
> 
> The necrontyr, a short lived race with advanced technology but no understanding of the warp.
> 
> Well orignally sun poisioning was the reason they were short lived. I'm guessing now this means normal mortality.
> 
> As you can see, neither of them could defeat a galaxy spanning empire of powerful psykers with warp based weaponry and technology on their own.
> 
> In the new fluff it says that they targeted the Old Ones because they needed an external enemy to unite them. THEY were the galactic spanning empire with techcnology of gods.
> 
> When they team up however, they became:
> 
> An immortal race of unliving undying warriors with the knowledge of the gods at their command and the gods themselves at their side. Suddenly the upper hand has switched sides. Afterward, the necrons decide that they don't want to live under the rule of their gods and why should they?
> 
> First off let's just say undying. Their essences were transferred into living metal bodies. They were still alive,just undying. Next let me see if I could get this right. The Necrontry can't defeat the Old Ones and neither can the C'tan. The Nec's posess tech and the C'tan the power. They combine. The Necrontryr are given the living metal bodies that the C'tan apparently now have from.....the Necrontyr. I guess. Now everybody is an imortal of varying power and tech. They take on the Old Ones. The C'tan now are defeated by Necrons.My issue with this fluff is the depowering of the C'tan. They were the ones who defeated the C'tan. Not the talismans of Vaul could stop them or even the Eldar Gods completely destroy them. Now, they are shattered by the C'tan after teaming up with them because they couldn't defeat the Old Ones. So what, did Khaine shatter a shard into a splinter?
> 
> The new fluff makes perfect sense and deep down you know it (or maybe it's just massive failure of imagination on your part). The Emperor created the Thunder Warriors for one purpose and there was no need to keep them. The astartes were his true soldiers.
> 
> I never disputed this fact. Failure of imagination. I can't believe you think the Emperor killing his own warriors because he wanted to all the credit for conquering Earth was imaginitive.Really? So they Necrontyr can't defeat a race of ultra powerful pyskers and when they get living metal bodies and tech from I'm guessing the C'tan they all of a sudden can take out the C'tan who have been said to be able to control technology (Void Dragon)?Oh and the power of the living universe implies something other than warp energy, which the C'tan are pretty much made from the living energies of the materium so how'd that take them out and shatter them? They said that the c'tan couldn't handle it and that's why? Beings who were around before anyone knew that they could speak and fed off of the energy of stars suddenly can't handle energy of tech they helped make?
> 
> And it isn't unprecedented for a GK squad to banish a daemon prince. It is what they were fucking made to do, so it isn't hard to believe that the best of them couldn't do it alone! Remember Draigo was cursed to wander the warp for eternity, for all we know Tzeentch engineered Mortarion's fall into the bargain.
> 
> That was my argument. First a squad is like 6 to 7 guys. It was a company of 300 GK's in terminator armor. Huge difference. This was the first time I'm aware of a Daemon Primarch being banished. So that's the precedent. They almost all of them died. The last part of what you said made absolutely no sense. M'Kar did it as revenge. The Mortarion thing happened because Draigo was pissed. What led to his entrapment was his battles with M'kar, Mortarion getting owned had absolutely nothing to do with it. Two seperate instances. One space marine even a GK is not going to be able to take down a daemon primarch. I'm sure if it was possible the guys at Armageddon would have done it.
> 
> I will say it again, you simply refuse to see anything positive here simply because all you want is to complain. And yet, the fact that you still stick with this hobby seems to point to what exactly? :scratchhead: Hmm, perhaps the fact that you know this is still better than any other game system's fluff? :wink:


 
 Before the Emperor was a benevolent leader who began to make colder and more emotionless decisions and play his motives close to the vest. Now? He's a glory hog who sacrifices his own men for credit. Yeah the astartes are his soldiers. So are the Imperial Guard,Navy,Assassins, and Inquisition. He's got a lot of warriors. He sacrifices them for the better of the Imperium and they are glad to lay down their lives for his dream. His dream, not his ego. The Emperor protects is the phrase. He does what he does including sacrificing life for the betterment of mankind,not to stroke his ego. The new fluff for him makes him look lke a douchebag. The C'tan were a fearful race that had never really known defeat and enslaved an entire race. I guess so the Necron army could have special characters they were sacrificed. I don't see how you needed the shard thing to do this. It could have easily been the same thing with the C'tan still being missing or sleeping. The Void Dragon can never wake up or it's a wrap for Mars and very likely earth in the original context. The Nightbringer is serverely weakened and will need time to build his strength. The Deceiver doesn't really have the power on his own, IMO, to dominate all the necrons. With the lack of leadership you could have introduced all these new characters and made them independant of the C'tan while still keeping the original story. The kids woke up without any parental advisory and now it's their turn. Simple. That's real imagination. An enslaved race waking up in immortal bodies to discover their masters no longer dominate the universe which is now up for grabs. It's any body race.


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## Serpion5

> It's stated that not all of the eldar gods are actually dead specifically Isha,Khaine,and Cegorach. While Nurgle claimed Isha after hearing her cries and defeating Slaanesh. Khaine then defeated Slaanesh claiming Khaine spirit for himself thinking that no warrior should be under some he/she skank's thrall but he was driven into the material realm in the battle and that's how the shards of him came about. So yeah, more than likely he's stacking skulls on the throne for his new boss while his physical shards are utilized by the eldar avatars. It's in the Eldar Codex. The part about him stacking skulls is just what I figure he's doing these days.


Khaine was driven from the warp forever. He exists only as the Avatars, there is nothing left of him in the warp. 



> Never before have they gone on an orgy of destruction? You mean like the Nightbringer imprinting his image of terror to inspire the fear of death. That's a capability of a shard?Taking on the emperor one on one even though losing but being incapable of being destroyed by the most powerful psyker in the universe when you couldn't defeat the old ones in complete form is now the capability of a shard? Yeah how does that make sense,pal. Your telling me a weakened "shard" can take on the most powerful psyker in the universe and still not be destroyed, only imprisoned as it says in Mechanicus destroying it wasn't a possibility but when it was at full power it still couldn't take the Old Ones?


When the Nightbringer imprinted the fear of death on the eldar he was whole, that was following his battle with Khaine and before the necron rebellion. I would not attribute that to a shard.

And yes actually. The shard fought a lone mortal. Very powerful, but still a lone mortal. The full c'tan was pitted against an army of warp capable beings quite possibly stronger than the Emperor. Your comparison isn't really a valid one here. 



> First off let's just say undying. Their essences were transferred into living metal bodies. They were still alive,just undying. Next let me see if I could get this right. The Necrontry can't defeat the Old Ones and neither can the C'tan. The Nec's posess tech and the C'tan the power. They combine. The Necrontryr are given the living metal bodies that the C'tan apparently now have from.....the Necrontyr. I guess. Now everybody is an imortal of varying power and tech. They take on the Old Ones. The C'tan now are defeated by Necrons.My issue with this fluff is the depowering of the C'tan. They were the ones who defeated the C'tan. Not the talismans of Vaul could stop them or even the Eldar Gods completely destroy them. Now, they are shattered by the C'tan after teaming up with them because they couldn't defeat the Old Ones. So what, did Khaine shatter a shard into a splinter?


Are you even reading our fucking replies? Khaine fought the full Nightbringer! Before the necron rebellion! 



> I never disputed this fact. Failure of imagination. I can't believe you think the Emperor killing his own warriors because he wanted to all the credit for conquering Earth was imaginitive.Really? So they Necrontyr can't defeat a race of ultra powerful pyskers and when they get living metal bodies and tech from I'm guessing the C'tan they all of a sudden can take out the C'tan who have been said to be able to control technology (Void Dragon)?Oh and the power of the living universe implies something other than warp energy, which the C'tan are pretty much made from the living energies of the materium so how'd that take them out and shatter them? They said that the c'tan couldn't handle it and that's why? Beings who were around before anyone knew that they could speak and fed off of the energy of stars suddenly can't handle energy of tech they helped make?


The c'tan were arrogant in the extreme. They empowered the necrons believing they would always be in charge. With the knowledge of the gods at their disposal and weapons of similar power, yes I believe the c'tan could be fought on reasonably even terms. 

Remember, trillions of necrons were lost during the rebellion to destroy what power the c'tan had seized. It's not as if it just happened hunky dory. 



> That was my argument. First a squad is like 6 to 7 guys. It was a company of 300 GK's in terminator armor. Huge difference. This was the first time I'm aware of a Daemon Primarch being banished. So that's the precedent. They almost all of them died. The last part of what you said made absolutely no sense. M'Kar did it as revenge. The Mortarion thing happened because Draigo was pissed. What led to his entrapment was his battles with M'kar, Mortarion getting owned had absolutely nothing to do with it. Two seperate instances. One space marine even a GK is not going to be able to take down a daemon primarch. I'm sure if it was possible the guys at Armageddon would have done it.


One primarch is not equal to another, daemon or not. And when did I link those two events? It is entirely possible for a specialist daemon hunter to defeat a daemon. I fail to see your argument here.


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## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> he full c'tan was pitted against an army of warp capable beings quite possibly stronger than the Emperor.


Warp capable beings who created more warp capable beings instead of cloning themselves - entities quite possibly stronger than the Emperor.

Everything else I agree with. Why Serpion.. why


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> Warp capable beings who created more warp capable beings instead of cloning themselves - entities quite possibly stronger than the Emperor.
> 
> Everything else I agree with. Why Serpion.. why


Because if the c'tan were willing to acknowledge that the Old Ones had defeated them in the past, then I'm assuming the Old Ones had some psychic badassery going their way.


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## Malus Darkblade

Or the Old Ones, technologically superior than the Necrons, owned them in the past like how the Necrons owned them after the Old Ones lost.

Also it was probably a lie. Wasn't it the Deceiver who told the Silent King?


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> Or the Old Ones, technologically superior than the Necrons, owned them in the past like how the Necrons owned them after the Old Ones lost.
> 
> Also it was probably a lie. Wasn't it the Deceiver who told the Silent King?


Both of these are possible.


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## Cowlicker16

Whew,after getting through 10 pages of back of forth I finally get to come in. At first hearing of C'tan shards it did sound ridiculous to me but that is because when someone says "shard" I imagine a tiny little piece like a rock or a big splinter. But now being described as exactly as they were with slightly less but still untold amounts of power I'm onbard with it.

And with the Mortarion/Draigo fight we do remember that a demon,even a demon-primarch, while in the material universe is much weaker then its normal self.


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## gally912

Shards are cool with me. A full C'tan shouldn't be on the tabletop, really. 

But yo, what about the enslaver plague?

Also, are there any necrons who still worship the C'tan? Circa last codex?


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## SoulGazer

gally912 said:


> Shards are cool with me. A full C'tan shouldn't be on the tabletop, really.
> 
> But yo, what about the enslaver plague?
> 
> Also, are there any necrons who still worship the C'tan? Circa last codex?



I agree about the full C'tan thing. Also, the enslavers aren't specifically mentioned, but they were there along with many daemons and whatnot that came through the warp when the Old Ones had been using the warp too often as a weapon. So it was an all-around Chaos plague, really, but it mostly killed off the few remaining Old Ones. The Eldar weren't hit so hard by it, since they just kept getting stronger after that.

The Newcron lore leaves many things open, so while it is not specifically stated, yes, it is possible that there are Tomb Worlds that still serve the C'tan in one way or another. Whether they're just insane, reprogrammed, or malfunctioning is for you to decide. k:


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## Lux

I think regarding the whole khaine versus nightbringer, if it was a shard or not is entirely up to subjective opinion. There just isn't any concrete dates given to accurately indicate when the fight took place, and if it took place at all.

In my opinion I believe the necron rebellion took place first, the nightbringer was split into shards and then the necrons forced the shard of the nightbringer to fight Khaine at the forefront of their siege.

Now as to why I believe it was a shard and not the full nightbringer?
1. The C'Tan were complete masters of real space, they were made out of "living energies of the materium", the laws of physics and reality did not apply to them.

2. The battle between khaine and the nightbringer likely took place in the materium due to that the C'Tan have never been mentioned being able to go into the warp, and even if they can it says they hate (not due to weakness but due to not being master over it in the way they are over everything else).

3. With that said, if Khaine fought the full nightbringer in real space, I in no way see Khaine being victorious over a entity that is absolute master over real space in every dimension of it.

Thus I conclude for the moment that what Khaine fought was a shard of the nightbringer, which attest to how strong the C'Tan were in their full forms considering a shard was able to battle Khaine. And even though it lost the fight, the Necrons in that particular battle defeated the Eldar and drove them back.


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## SoulGazer

Lux said:


> I think regarding the whole khaine versus nightbringer, if it was a shard or not is entirely up to subjective opinion. There just isn't any concrete dates given to accurately indicate when the fight took place, and if it took place at all.
> 
> In my opinion I believe the necron rebellion took place first, the nightbringer was split into shards and then the necrons forced the shard of the nightbringer to fight Khaine at the forefront of their siege.


There was no siege after the Necrons rebelled. They took such hard losses after the C'tan were beaten they just went into stasis knowing they couldn't beat the Eldar in a war at the time.

Also Khaine could beat the Nightbringer because lolwarpgod. It is also not affected by physics and doesn't care what power over the materium anyone has. The warp beats anything except guns and swords apparently. For some reason just shooting and slicing warp entities seems to keep them back enough to have them not take over the galaxy instantly.


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## Malus Darkblade

A shard would pose no threat to Khaine. 

It was the full C'tan guaranteed. Khaine is a warp entity while the C'tan are not. 

He is an Eldar deity, a being worshiped by an entire race of potent pskyers so being in the material realm would not diminish its powers as it would with a regular daemon who is but a small portion of one of the Chaos powers.


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## Deadeye776

.......I never envisioned the C'tan as being a table top component as it seemed like someone putting The Emperor or Khorne on board. Originally. The laws natural laws of the universe didn't apply to them as they commanded the natural energies of the material realm as well as feeding off of them including star power and life force. Originally. With that description I never thought something that dominant would be fair on the board. They had the Nightbringer as basically crippled in his power and he still was apocalypse level. I always thought the Necrons to be the central characters of this faction. I however took it as the same as chaos. When you feild a Chaos army I'm more than certain no one puts Slaanesh or Nurgle at the forefront. Their gods. They have minions to fight. 

Just because they are minions doesn't diminish the army. Warriors of terrifying power populate Chaos armies and the same could have been done for the Necrons and still keep their Gods as powerful entities still sleeping. You could have had individual armies set up dedicated to each C'tan. Some trying to awaken (Void Dragon) their god or bring him back (the Outsider). Maybe launching quests to gain him more power (Nightbringer) or just trying to screw the others out of power (The Deciever). The Chaos forces engage in such internal games and outer warfare. Obviously they never achieve their ultimate goals. The Void Dragon can never be freed or the Imperium would have fallen. However that's just me. I was just voicing my displeasure with it among other things. 

Most of the new fluff doesn't make sense but whatever. I'm done aruguing about it. It has bought up something of note. If Slaanesh's battle shattered Khaine by pushing him into the material realm,and the material realm is the only place the Nightbringer can exist as he has no warp presence, Then where the did the Nightbringer fight Khaine? Khaine couldn't come into the material universe and the night bringer can't come into the Warp. So where'd they fight?


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## Lux

SoulGazer said:


> There was no siege after the Necrons rebelled. They took such hard losses after the C'tan were beaten they just went into stasis knowing they couldn't beat the Eldar in a war at the time.
> 
> Also Khaine could beat the Nightbringer because lolwarpgod. It is also not affected by physics and doesn't care what power over the materium anyone has. The warp beats anything except guns and swords apparently. For some reason just shooting and slicing warp entities seems to keep them back enough to have them not take over the galaxy instantly.


The old fluff states that the Necron forces drove the old ones back to their deepest bastions, it was during this time of necron dominance that the ctan began to feed on one another. When the old ones resurfaced they found only 3 CTan remained. The C'Tan did not retreat from the eldar due to being to weak from feeding on one another, in the original fluff they went to sleep due to that their wasn't enough life left in the known galaxy to sustain them. The enslaver plague killed off most of the known life, it posed no threat to the C'Tan directly.

The Eldar took control of the galaxy only because the C'Tan and their necron followers went into hibernation due to their food supply vanishing, they would have died due to starvation not due to threat from the eldar.

With the new fluff, it changes it slightly in that during the time of necron dominance the Necrons enslaved their former masters and turned them into shards of which they were able to control to their own ends. This doesn't change the fact that the NightBringer shard could have been used by the Necrons to fight the Eldar and their avatar of Khaine, it all fits with the fluff. 

Additionally being a "Warp god" means nothing, a warp god in the materium is far weaker then they are in the warp, and as show with the "chaos gods
, the more warp based you are the weaker you are in the materium to the point you are unable to enter the materium directly at all. Khaine had to have not been very ominipotent in the warp seeing as you are inferring he was roaming freely in the materium to fight the Nightbringer.

You also claim the materium can do nothing to harm a warp being? That is entirely inaccurate, the new codex directly states the Necrons bartered with the imperium to give them technology and devices capable of entirely destroying and imprisoning warp entities. IE they gave the Grey Knights the devices used to destroy, imprison and banish greater daemons with ease.

Furthermore how can you claim the materium is unable to harm warp beings? The C'Tan have such power over the materium it extends beyond anything psykers or warp based power can do in the materium. They have the power to completely seal off the warp from the materium, if Khaine fought the full nightbringer in the materium of where it has absolute mastery and control, I doubt Khaine would have survived. 

Warp energy is the one thing the C'Tan are unable to have absolute mastery over in manipulation, however it has not once shown to be effective against them. Can it harm them? Yes. Has it shown to be highly effective? No. All twelve vaul stone cannons, the greatest conduits of warp energy ever made, fired on the void dragon simultaneously, consecutively. What did this accomplish? It angered the void dragon and the accompanying necron army into destroying a majority of the vaul stone fortresses during that skirmish as well as driving back the eldar.

It is why I believe Khaine only fought a shard of the nightbringer, the C'Tan in their full forms were written as parallels to the four chaos gods. The C'Tan were set up as the four "chaos gods" of the materium, to mirror the chaos gods of the warp. In no way were the Eldar "gods" ever written to be the omnipotent beings, the top of the food chain for either the warp or the materium.


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## Davidicus 40k

Lux said:


> The C'Tan were set up as the four "chaos gods" of the materium, to mirror the chaos gods of the warp. In no way were the Eldar "gods" ever written to be the omnipotent beings, the top of the food chain for either the warp or the materium.


That... is an interesting point, one I hadn't considered before.


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## SoulGazer

Lux said:


> The old fluff states


That's just it though, the old fluff is gone. Most of it is not even mentioned in the new dex. Think like GW here(Hard to think like a madman, I know.) There is no mention at all of most of the stuff in the last dex. All the stuff about the C'tan, the Mechanicus, the Void Dragon, the Cadian Pylons being part of some plot to seal off the immaterium, all of it gone. Not to mention both the C'tan and the Necrons have been reduced to galactic trolls, not really a threat on the scale of Chaos or the Tyranids.

Nevermind that much of this stuff makes no sense when you look at it. The C'tan are materium gods that can affect the warp in some ways, but the Necrons somehow developed in a way that they can't understand the warp? The materium and the warp were so close at the time of the War in Heaven that they were almost one dimension, and yet somehow the Necrons can't handle the warp. Ah, but they can destroy omnipotent materium gods by using *even more materium power than gods*. Somehow. Derp.

So Khaine was at full power and able to fight the Nightbringer at full power. The thing is, the C'tan have to be shown to be weaker than the warp now, they can't be the equal of the Chaos gods because they're not supposed to be a threat anymore. That's just GW being douches and has nothing to do with what "should" be more powerful.

As I've stated before, the Necrons should be invincible. There should be nothing that can even touch them other than Chaos because they *overpowered gods*. Overpowered gods. They shattered the Nightbringer who was defeated by Khaine. The Necrons should be able to blow anything they want to hell and back whenever they feel like it.

But, sadly, they can't be as much of a threat as Chaos. So therefore, they are trolls and weaker than the warp. Because GW.


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## Deadeye776

Lux said:


> The old fluff states that the Necron forces drove the old ones back to their deepest bastions, it was during this time of necron dominance that the ctan began to feed on one another. When the old ones resurfaced they found only 3 CTan remained. The C'Tan did not retreat from the eldar due to being to weak from feeding on one another, in the original fluff they went to sleep due to that their wasn't enough life left in the known galaxy to sustain them. The enslaver plague killed off most of the known life, it posed no threat to the C'Tan directly.
> 
> The Eldar took control of the galaxy only because the C'Tan and their necron followers went into hibernation due to their food supply vanishing, they would have died due to starvation not due to threat from the eldar.
> 
> With the new fluff, it changes it slightly in that during the time of necron dominance the Necrons enslaved their former masters and turned them into shards of which they were able to control to their own ends. This doesn't change the fact that the NightBringer shard could have been used by the Necrons to fight the Eldar and their avatar of Khaine, it all fits with the fluff.
> 
> Additionally being a "Warp god" means nothing, a warp god in the materium is far weaker then they are in the warp, and as show with the "chaos gods
> , the more warp based you are the weaker you are in the materium to the point you are unable to enter the materium directly at all. Khaine had to have not been very ominipotent in the warp seeing as you are inferring he was roaming freely in the materium to fight the Nightbringer.
> 
> You also claim the materium can do nothing to harm a warp being? That is entirely inaccurate, the new codex directly states the Necrons bartered with the imperium to give them technology and devices capable of entirely destroying and imprisoning warp entities. IE they gave the Grey Knights the devices used to destroy, imprison and banish greater daemons with ease.
> 
> Furthermore how can you claim the materium is unable to harm warp beings? The C'Tan have such power over the materium it extends beyond anything psykers or warp based power can do in the materium. They have the power to completely seal off the warp from the materium, if Khaine fought the full nightbringer in the materium of where it has absolute mastery and control, I doubt Khaine would have survived.
> 
> Warp energy is the one thing the C'Tan are unable to have absolute mastery over in manipulation, however it has not once shown to be effective against them. Can it harm them? Yes. Has it shown to be highly effective? No. All twelve vaul stone cannons, the greatest conduits of warp energy ever made, fired on the void dragon simultaneously, consecutively. What did this accomplish? It angered the void dragon and the accompanying necron army into destroying a majority of the vaul stone fortresses during that skirmish as well as driving back the eldar.
> 
> It is why I believe Khaine only fought a shard of the nightbringer, the C'Tan in their full forms were written as parallels to the four chaos gods. The C'Tan were set up as the four "chaos gods" of the materium, to mirror the chaos gods of the warp. In no way were the Eldar "gods" ever written to be the omnipotent beings, the top of the food chain for either the warp or the materium.


 

Finally. This was all I was trying to say. The C'tan were originally written as I took it to be the Gods of the Materium. It's kind of ironic that in the end there were only 4 mirroring the Gods of the warp. I never thought of the C'tan being table top characters. These things were supposed to be the word in power when they were first created. Out of nowhere now the Necrons basically do the equivalent of a daemon not only defeating but enslaving one of the Chaos Gods. Y'know the Chaos Gods. The Gods that created the daemons with their own power rising up and defeating them. That's what seemed so outlandish with this new fluff.The laws of the universe don't apply to the C'tan, so how hell did the Necron create materium based energy tech that could destroy them? People keep saying that they haven't been depowered but I don't see how you look at it and say that it's not the case. Would it make sense if a daemon used massive amounts of WARP energy to destroy Khorne or Nurgle? I bet there would be an uproar over bullshit like that. The C'tan are made from the life energies of this universe. The can bend space and time to their will. The oly power they could never grasp was warp energy which is why the Old Ones presented a challenge. Now they are reduced to shards. Again the last point you made I ask again. If Khaine fought the Nightbringer where the hell did this happen. If Khaine was shattered due to his phyiscal form entering the materium that he can't have fought him in the materium. If the NIghtbringer being a C'tan can't go into the warp as they have no presence there then he couldn't have fought him in the immaterium. Where did they fight?


----------



## Lux

SoulGazer said:


> That's just it though, the old fluff is gone. Most of it is not even mentioned in the new dex. Think like GW here(Hard to think like a madman, I know.) There is no mention at all of most of the stuff in the last dex. All the stuff about the C'tan, the Mechanicus, the Void Dragon, the Cadian Pylons being part of some plot to seal off the immaterium, all of it gone. Not to mention both the C'tan and the Necrons have been reduced to galactic trolls, not really a threat on the scale of Chaos or the Tyranids.
> 
> Nevermind that much of this stuff makes no sense when you look at it. The C'tan are materium gods that can affect the warp in some ways, but the Necrons somehow developed in a way that they can't understand the warp? The materium and the warp were so close at the time of the War in Heaven that they were almost one dimension, and yet somehow the Necrons can't handle the warp. Ah, but they can destroy omnipotent materium gods by using *even more materium power than gods*. Somehow. Derp.
> 
> So Khaine was at full power and able to fight the Nightbringer at full power. The thing is, the C'tan have to be shown to be weaker than the warp now, they can't be the equal of the Chaos gods because they're not supposed to be a threat anymore. That's just GW being douches and has nothing to do with what "should" be more powerful.
> 
> As I've stated before, the Necrons should be invincible. There should be nothing that can even touch them other than Chaos because they *overpowered gods*. Overpowered gods. They shattered the Nightbringer who was defeated by Khaine. The Necrons should be able to blow anything they want to hell and back whenever they feel like it.
> 
> But, sadly, they can't be as much of a threat as Chaos. So therefore, they are trolls and weaker than the warp. Because GW.


Contrary to the strong dislike some may have for the new necron codex, it in no way alienates or invalidates the older fluff. It adds depth to it, but in no way invalidates it, if you could show me how it does and where it does specifically I would be happy to debate why it does not.

The C'Tan still are complete masters "gods" of the materium, that in no way was disputed, all that changed was they were stated to be depowered in the "Current" timeline for balance sake.

Khaine fighting a full powered nightbringer is no where confirmed or stated, nor is it stated he fought a shard, it is all speculation purposely left open by GW for fan interpretation so as not to throw off faction balance by openly favoring one over another.

It is all tied to marketing.

I have stated why I believe it was a shard he fought, and you have your opinion why it was the complete nightbringer, this is exactly what GW intends for fans to do, to debate as it generates interest and subsequently sales.


----------



## LukeValantine

Yah for blind speculation. In fact their are enough holes in the necron fluff still to justify lots of crazieness.


----------



## HUMYN HYBRID

Davidicus 40k said:


> Now they're faceless robots... with faces! :biggrin:
> 
> I get what you mean, and I agree, that's a good thing. Keep Tyranids as the mindless killing *machines* (pun intended), and give the Necrons more... *organic *flaws, such as personality and ambition. I think Chaos should be the most immediate threat, because while Tyranids are frightening, they just aren't here in full force (yet) and we don't know if they'll ever be. They could be lurking just outside the fringes of the galaxy, or they could be in the eastern half of the universe.


just a thought... if the full force of the tyranids were in the eastern part of the universe. then wouldnt that mean that the tau are pretty much doomed... id be pissed if so as im a massive tau fan... besides, the closest tyranid force is the hive fleet colossus. which isnt really that big when you compare the size of that to say... kraken.... also, just want to put in that on other threads, they are saying that there isnt much necron force left.... my threads have been ignored as far as im concerned, but i am curious, if the tyranids have appeared from other universed beyond the current, what is to say there arnt any tomb worlds outside in other universes as well? for all we know (by we, i mean me.... ) the necrons could far outnumber the tyranids in other universes (perhaps another reason why the tyranids fear them((old fluff) just a thought... please comment, and if you could, message me your views on this, so that i actually recieve other peoples thoughts... cheers all!!!


----------



## SoulGazer

Deadeye776 said:


> Would it make sense if a daemon used massive amounts of WARP energy to destroy Khorne or Nurgle?


Well yeah, how else are they gonna do it? That's exactly what would happen, lol.




Deadeye776 said:


> The oly power they could never grasp was warp energy which is why the Old Ones presented a challenge.


Except that the Burning One could force his way into the Webway and the Nightbringer tainted Khaine.



Deadeye776 said:


> Again the last point you made I ask again. If Khaine fought the Nightbringer where the hell did this happen. If Khaine was shattered due to his phyiscal form entering the materium that he can't have fought him in the materium. If the NIghtbringer being a C'tan can't go into the warp as they have no presence there then he couldn't have fought him in the immaterium. Where did they fight?


As I've stated, the materium and immaterium had a very thin veil between them at the time. They were later more permanently separated, but at this time it was possible for the deities of both sides to physically fight. They were technically in both and neither. :wacko:


----------



## SoulGazer

HUMYN HYBRID said:


> another reason why the tyranids fear them((old fluff) just a thought... please comment, and if you could, message me your views on this, so that i actually recieve other peoples thoughts... cheers all!!!


The Tyranids don't "fear" them per say, but the Tomb Worlds have this thing called Null Field Matrices that block the warp... somehow... Even though the Crons aren't supposed to be able to mess with the warp... Whatever, in any case, this shadow produced by the Tomb Worlds also messes with the Hive Mind, says it has a "deleterious effect" on Tyranids. That's why they go around the Tomb Worlds normally. I have no idea if these are active on dormant Tomb Worlds but I'd say no since in the new codex some Tomb Worlds have been eaten by Nids. Probably cause they were dormant and had mortal races colonizing them at the time.

Also they may or may not have these things on every Tomb World, or maybe they take time to power up, cause I can't recall any mention of Psykers not being able to use their abilities in any of the lore while on Tomb Worlds.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

SoulGazer said:


> Nevermind that much of this stuff makes no sense when you look at it. The C'tan are materium gods that can affect the warp in some ways, but the Necrons somehow developed in a way that they can't understand the warp? The materium and the warp were so close at the time of the War in Heaven that they were almost one dimension, and yet somehow the Necrons can't handle the warp. Ah, but they can destroy omnipotent materium gods by using *even more materium power than gods*. Somehow. Derp.


Not sure about the whole issue with Khaine, but as I understand it, it was the C'tan who couldn't comprehend the Warp, not the Necrontyr. That's why the C'tan sought to close off the Warp, and also because the much-hated Old Ones were psychically adept and drew their power and technology from the Empyrean, which, at that time, was barely separate from the Materium. The Necrons were only able to overpower their devious and manipulative gods because the C'tan were weak from a lack of feeding, due to the Necrons' conquest and the Enslaver Plague. Using the "energies of the living universe" to shatter the C'tan is worded a bit strangely (who knows what it's supposed to really mean?), but this is 40k.

Necrons, I think, were never meant to be invincible, only to be *portrayed* that way. The soulless skull-masks, the frighteningly advanced technology, the slow march which quakes the ground with every step. All of that is in stark contrast to the Tyranids and Chaos: fast-moving, aggressive, chaotic, driven by emotion and instinct. It doesn't make the Necrons any less of a threat.


----------



## HUMYN HYBRID

SoulGazer said:


> The Tyranids don't "fear" them per say, but the Tomb Worlds have this thing called Null Field Matrices that block the warp... somehow... Even though the Crons aren't supposed to be able to mess with the warp... Whatever, in any case, this shadow produced by the Tomb Worlds also messes with the Hive Mind, says it has a "deleterious effect" on Tyranids. That's why they go around the Tomb Worlds normally. I have no idea if these are active on dormant Tomb Worlds but I'd say no since in the new codex some Tomb Worlds have been eaten by Nids. Probably cause they were dormant and had mortal races colonizing them at the time.
> 
> Also they may or may not have these things on every Tomb World, or maybe they take time to power up, cause I can't recall any mention of Psykers not being able to use their abilities in any of the lore while on Tomb Worlds.


ahhh. well this explains the theory much more clearly and makes more sense... than what i was originally told anyways...


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## SoulGazer

Davidicus 40k said:


> Necrons, I think, were never meant to be invincible, only to be *portrayed* that way.


Huh, well, this is 40k, so I guess that works no matter what you put there...



Davidicus 40k said:


> Ultramarines, I think, were never meant to be invincible, only to be *portrayed* that way.





Davidicus 40k said:


> Tyranids, I think, were never meant to be invincible, only to be *portrayed* that way.





Davidicus 40k said:


> Chaos, I think, was never meant to be invincible, only to be *portrayed* that way.


Yeah, that about sums it all up, haha. :so_happy:


----------



## Deadeye776

I guess you can throw in Kaldor Draigo. Not the Grey Knights mind you, just Draigo.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

so how are you shard groupies gonna explain the outsider then?

crazy ass ctan trapped in a dyson sphere because its highly dangerous to all life but new fluff might suggest its just a fraction of the god.

what would be the point of trapping it in there when there could be a ton of other bits of it in the galaxy somewhere? and if the shards contain some past memorys of the ctan then containing abit of it in a prison seems pretty pointless when it can carry on its evil schemes using another piece of its body considering you think they dont always have to be under necron control. but then a god under a minions control just sounds the most dumbest thing ive ever heard. 

pretty much goes for why would the emperor trap the nightbringer in a prison if it was a shard, why not just destroy it because if the necrons can do supreme damage to their god which is highly vulnerable to warp energy and a set of spaceships can kill a full ctan, why couldnt the emperor who can command crazy power not destroy a tiny percentage of the whole. 

when all is said and done you shard groupies just dont want to admit the severity of the plot holes that werent thought out before publication of the codex. like i said before i really like the new necron character stuff but the shard stuff is really sloppy and not even original. 

hell from what ive read in fall of damnos some of the necron highcommand are deranged anyway and the underlings are nearly all mindless too so how any of them had enough about them to rebel, devise a plan to deminish their gods power and actually pull off this plan off just seems absurd. 

and some of you guys laugh at the return of a primarch! pfft!


----------



## Deadeye776

All I'm saying is with the new fluff the Necrons are pretty much unstoppable by anything other than a Tyranid Hive Fleet in it's entirety or a Chaos incursion to include some kind of Avatar of the Gods themselves. The fact that they have tech that could shatter the C'tan and defeat the Old Ones put them in a category where I don't see them as being a fair army on the table top. Even fractured I don't believe any army truly can handle them realistically on the board. They barter and trade with the Imperium? What happened to the xenophobia, these guys represent everything that the Emperor feared from the xenos. Now they are trading with an Empire that makes any xenos threat pale in comparison save maybe for the Tyranids? How does this make sense?


----------



## Lux

Again people state the CTan are highly vulnerable to warp energy, please show anywhere in the fluff where this happened? Because it has never been shown.

It has been shown in the fluff the CTan are the most resilient entities in all the materium to warp energy.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Lux said:


> It has been shown in the fluff the CTan are the most resilient entities in all the materium to warp energy.


So the Emperor and the Dragon of Mars wrestled and he came out on top?


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Lux said:


> Again people state the CTan are highly vulnerable to warp energy, please show anywhere in the fluff where this happened? Because it has never been shown.
> 
> It has been shown in the fluff the CTan are the most resilient entities in all the materium to warp energy.


well considering the blackstone fortresses were built to kill ctan and they link up and harness vast amount of warp energy as their main weapon it would indicate that they are vulnerable to high amounts of warp energy. 

being the most resilent beings to warp energy is only relative to the fact that they are probably the most powerful material beings in the galaxy. so trying to compare other beings resilence compared to a ctan is abit dumb really. 

warp energy seems to be the one thing they actually are afraid of due to their actions in the war in heaven. why seal try and seal off the warp and have beef with a highly warp tuned race if they dont hold some kind of threat to you?!


----------



## SoulGazer

Unknown Primarch said:


> so how are you shard groupies gonna explain the outsider then?
> 
> crazy ass ctan trapped in a dyson sphere because its highly dangerous to all life but new fluff might suggest its just a fraction of the god.
> 
> what would be the point of trapping it in there when there could be a ton of other bits of it in the galaxy somewhere? and if the shards contain some past memorys of the ctan then containing abit of it in a prison seems pretty pointless when it can carry on its evil schemes using another piece of its body considering you think they dont always have to be under necron control. but then a god under a minions control just sounds the most dumbest thing ive ever heard.
> 
> pretty much goes for why would the emperor trap the nightbringer in a prison if it was a shard, why not just destroy it because if the necrons can do supreme damage to their god which is highly vulnerable to warp energy and a set of spaceships can kill a full ctan, why couldnt the emperor who can command crazy power not destroy a tiny percentage of the whole.
> 
> when all is said and done you shard groupies just dont want to admit the severity of the plot holes that werent thought out before publication of the codex. like i said before i really like the new necron character stuff but the shard stuff is really sloppy and not even original.
> 
> hell from what ive read in fall of damnos some of the necron highcommand are deranged anyway and the underlings are nearly all mindless too so how any of them had enough about them to rebel, devise a plan to deminish their gods power and actually pull off this plan off just seems absurd.
> 
> and some of you guys laugh at the return of a primarch! pfft!


I've pointed out several plot holes myself. I agree, there must have been drugs involved during the creation of much of 40k. 

Side note: I would like to see a primarch return, that would mean the story is moving forward. Yay for plot.


----------



## Deadeye776

Unknown Primarch said:


> well considering the blackstone fortresses were built to kill ctan and they link up and harness vast amount of warp energy as their main weapon it would indicate that they are vulnerable to high amounts of warp energy.
> 
> Okay, well seeing how with this new bs created we don't even know if this is any more obsolete than the Mechanicus or Nightbringer novels. They built the Blackstone fortresses because they didn't have anything else to throw at them. Any other type of energy in the materium was controlled by the C'tan (originally,now it seems that's not true). This was literally the kitchen sink being thrown and it's hinted that it didn't work.
> 
> being the most resilent beings to warp energy is only relative to the fact that they are probably the most powerful material beings in the galaxy. so trying to compare other beings resilence compared to a ctan is abit dumb really.
> 
> How so? The fact the new fluff has them in shards speaks to how they now compare. IT's a precedent in itself. In every other tale in 40k only Gods have defeated other gods. Khorne beating Slaanesh. Nurgle Beating Slaanesh. Khaine getting beat by Slaanesh. The Eldar Gods beaing devoured by Slaanesh. This is the first time in a materium that laws they exist above the Necrons create tech that can defy beings who defy the law of physics. That's what's a bit dumb really. So with this tech now, they don't even need to be unified. What army could stand against something like that? None. That's really stupid.
> 
> warp energy seems to be the one thing they actually are afraid of due to their actions in the war in heaven. why seal try and seal off the warp and have beef with a highly warp tuned race if they dont hold some kind of threat to you?!


First they didn't have any beef with anyone. The Necrontyr originally brought this conflict when the introduced them to the succulent lifeforce instead of star energy. With the new fluff apparently they were weaker than the Old Ones to begin with. Also the blackstone fortresses failed to defeat the Void Dragon.


----------



## Sothot

How do we know the outsider is a c'tan? Outsider may not exist at all anymore, that's how I'd guess, considering all the other retcons. Honestly though, here's how I get by: I take what I like and roll with it. I liked the mechanicus story in the 3rd book. Still seems logical that there would be planets that could fall to worship necrons and c'tan, like the story involving the sylvae in the same 3rd book. The new book has necron lords with character, commanding legions of zombified necrontyr. Badass. C'tan have been reduced to shards, kept within boxes to be unleashed at a lord's will. Also badass, and a particularily canny lord might use this to his advantage in commanding respect and worship. Suddenly my army is developing character and it's own story and what not. Dolmen Gates? Fuck that, I still go with the inertialess drives explained via 3rd book. If it doesn't affect the game, imagine it however the hell you please. Getting in a rage over fluffy bits that are only there to help you imagine your toy army men being more than hunks of plastic with paint on them is lame. 
Also, for deadeye: posting in blue on a black background makes annoying posts mour annoying to read.
Aragorn couldn't have been killed by a troll. I may not remember that movie all that well but I do remember that scene very well. As the troll prepares to take out our manly hero a little timer pops up reading dues ex machina in 3...2...1... don't take entertainment so seriously.


----------



## Lux

Malus Darkblade said:


> So the Emperor and the Dragon of Mars wrestled and he came out on top?


If you could show me where it is stated that it was the void dragon, I would appreciate it. The new codex strongly hints it was a daemon of the warp, and in particular states "the imperium does not know what a C'Tan is, nor if they were to see one would they recognize one".

The new codex purposely dismantled the theories about the dragon of mars being a C'Tan, likely to pave a way for the upcoming chaos codex.


----------



## Deadeye776

Well I'm glad you enjoy fantasizes with your little bits of plastic.For those of us who enjoy the fluff and don't play the game this doesn't make sense at all. You've completely sacrificed a great story and even better characters so you can have a more powerful army. Question. Before this change, who exactly had technology that could challenge the Necrons? I mean really. From what I've heard they were pretty much the word in technological dominance in the beginning. Also, now that you have the ability to weild the power of the C'tan apparently, who's a threat to your power? So if I've got this straight you were an already top tier powerful army with a huge edge being immortal and tech advanced. Obviously with these drawbacks being upgraded to weilding the power of your gods seems like what? Fair to the other armies? So why don't the bloodthirsters unite and defeat Khorne and weild his power of the table top. The game is supposed to be competative. Besides chaos, who can call on power like that to challenge you? No one's in a rage pal, we are saying it's annoying the changes. Also aragorn is a half human/elf. If you think that they can't be killed by trolls you don't know anything about LOTR. The Deus Ex Machina is the ring being destroyed before the troll would have killed Aragorn. Go on youtube and look up LOTR 3 Final Fight scene. I hope you enjoyed this message in my favorite entertaining color. Cheers.


----------



## Sothot

My post...


Your head.
Way over. 
The race actually went from cruddy to (dare I say?) Balanced. If you're worried about fairness for a game you apparently don't even play, why is it such a big deal?
And what characters were sacrificed? We were given a huge plethora of characters. We never had named lords before. We have more than 4 c'tan (at least 5 or 6 names in the new book IIRC) as well as a story that doesn't reek of Mary Sue-ism and a constantly shifting status quo for the necrons. It is nothing like daemons rising up against khorne, so quit saying that (especially in blue! rabblerabblerabble). It's like Faust. With gauss.


----------



## SoulGazer

Lux said:


> If you could show me where it is stated that it was the void dragon, I would appreciate it. The new codex strongly hints it was a daemon of the warp, and in particular states "the imperium does not know what a C'Tan is, nor if they were to see one would they recognize one".
> 
> The new codex purposely dismantled the theories about the dragon of mars being a C'Tan, likely to pave a way for the upcoming chaos codex.


Sad but true.


----------



## Deadeye776

Stop the pretentiousness. I understand everything you said. I'm not in some idiotic rage over this. I don't play the table top game. That said I don't think the story I enjoy should be sacrificed for you to enjoy your side of 40k. You would have lost absolutely nothing if they'd created these characters and left the C'tan alone. The books and fluff would still be the same and you'd have more specialized characters to play with. You could have the Silent King and his minions with the other C'tan just the same. Maybe have them try and enact the plyon tech so they would have their gods be ablet to dominate this universe without any foreign energy that they couldn't manipulate. By sacrificing the C'tan to make the Necrons more powerful all you've done is weaken potentially one of the coolest stories BL produced since we heard Ephrael Stern had a sex tape.......okay I made that up.


----------



## Sothot

After this I swear to god I don't want to talk about LOTR anymore... But another point: Sauron was "shattered" by merely losing his ring finger. Why do you accept that but find it impossible that a similar act ( or perhaps a more complex one like "harnessing the weapons of life") could not shatter a c'tan? Me thinks you just like a fight.


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## Deadeye776

........ I'm not answering that.


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## Sothot

Were you going to say it was because he imbued the ring with a measure of his power? Much like nightbringer empowered his ship, as other c'tan were sure to do? Much like Voldemort... Eh, I don't want to go there either.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

SoulGazer said:


> Huh, well, this is 40k, so I guess that works no matter what you put there...


And all of those entities were shown or theorized to have weaknesses, so why should the Necrons be excluded?


----------



## SoulGazer

Davidicus 40k said:


> theorized to have weaknesses


>Ultramarines theorized to have weaknesses
>theorized
>Matt Ward approves


But no seriously, I did include the Necrons in there. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It was meant to be more of a joke, anyways.

This post was also a joke.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Lux said:


> If you could show me where it is stated that it was the void dragon, I would appreciate it. The new codex strongly hints it was a daemon of the warp, and in particular states "the imperium does not know what a C'Tan is, nor if they were to see one would they recognize one".
> 
> The new codex purposely dismantled the theories about the dragon of mars being a C'Tan, likely to pave a way for the upcoming chaos codex.


A daemon would know nothing of technology and even if it did, why would it feed the mechanicum cult with knowledge?

The Imperium or your average joe probably would not know what a C'tan is but the Emperor clearly would. 

And where does it show in the codex that all the theories of the dragon on mars if it being a ctan are false?


----------



## Serpion5

Lux said:


> I think regarding the whole khaine versus nightbringer, if it was a shard or not is entirely up to subjective opinion. There just isn't any concrete dates given to accurately indicate when the fight took place, and if it took place at all.
> 
> In my opinion I believe the necron rebellion took place first, the nightbringer was split into shards and then the necrons forced the shard of the nightbringer to fight Khaine at the forefront of their siege.
> 
> Now as to why I believe it was a shard and not the full nightbringer?
> 1. The C'Tan were complete masters of real space, they were made out of "living energies of the materium", the laws of physics and reality did not apply to them.
> 
> Just like they don't apply to beings of the warp right?
> 
> 2. The battle between khaine and the nightbringer likely took place in the materium due to that the C'Tan have never been mentioned being able to go into the warp, and even if they can it says they hate (not due to weakness but due to not being master over it in the way they are over everything else).
> 
> Except originally, the eldar gods could interact with their children. The War in heaven tells the story of how Asuryan permanently separated the realms to keep the eldar safe from Khaine's wrath. Given that this took place when the necrons role in the war was diminished, I'm assuming Khaine fought the Nightbringer long before this.
> 
> 3. With that said, if Khaine fought the full nightbringer in real space, I in no way see Khaine being victorious over a entity that is absolute master over real space in every dimension of it.
> 
> Unless maybe, I dunno, as a warp entity he had similar reality bending powers?
> 
> Thus I conclude for the moment that what Khaine fought was a shard of the nightbringer, which attest to how strong the C'Tan were in their full forms considering a shard was able to battle Khaine. And even though it lost the fight, the Necrons in that particular battle defeated the Eldar and drove them back.


You haven't thought this through enough. If you read as many sources as you are able to, it starts to make sense. DoW: Tempest gives a flashback to events of the War in Heaven that are quite enlightening. 



Deadeye776 said:


> .......I never envisioned the C'tan as being a table top component as it seemed like someone putting The Emperor or Khorne on board. Originally. The laws natural laws of the universe didn't apply to them as they commanded the natural energies of the material realm as well as feeding off of them including star power and life force. Originally. With that description I never thought something that dominant would be fair on the board. They had the Nightbringer as basically crippled in his power and he still was apocalypse level. I always thought the Necrons to be the central characters of this faction. I however took it as the same as chaos. When you feild a Chaos army I'm more than certain no one puts Slaanesh or Nurgle at the forefront. Their gods. They have minions to fight.


That's because the Chaos gods are permanently comprised of the warp and inseparable from it. That boundary did not exist for the c'tan and so gw attempted to account for it. Remember the lore was very different back then as were game mechanics. 



> Just because they are minions doesn't diminish the army. Warriors of terrifying power populate Chaos armies and the same could have been done for the Necrons and still keep their Gods as powerful entities still sleeping. You could have had individual armies set up dedicated to each C'tan. Some trying to awaken (Void Dragon) their god or bring him back (the Outsider). Maybe launching quests to gain him more power (Nightbringer) or just trying to screw the others out of power (The Deciever). The Chaos forces engage in such internal games and outer warfare. Obviously they never achieve their ultimate goals. The Void Dragon can never be freed or the Imperium would have fallen. However that's just me. I was just voicing my displeasure with it among other things.


The new lore does nothing to disallow necrons still loyal to the c'tan. 



> Most of the new fluff doesn't make sense but whatever. I'm done aruguing about it. It has bought up something of note. If Slaanesh's battle shattered Khaine by pushing him into the material realm,and the material realm is the only place the Nightbringer can exist as he has no warp presence, Then where the did the Nightbringer fight Khaine? Khaine couldn't come into the material universe and the night bringer can't come into the Warp. So where'd they fight?


I explained this above. Read DoW: Tempest if you want more info. Or ask me nicely.  



Unknown Primarch said:


> so how are you shard groupies gonna explain the outsider then?
> 
> crazy ass ctan trapped in a dyson sphere because its highly dangerous to all life but new fluff might suggest its just a fraction of the god.
> 
> what would be the point of trapping it in there when there could be a ton of other bits of it in the galaxy somewhere? and if the shards contain some past memorys of the ctan then containing abit of it in a prison seems pretty pointless when it can carry on its evil schemes using another piece of its body considering you think they dont always have to be under necron control. but then a god under a minions control just sounds the most dumbest thing ive ever heard.


If you worshipped a god for a million years or so, then realized you had the power to conquer it, would you be content to continue worshipping it?



> pretty much goes for why would the emperor trap the nightbringer in a prison if it was a shard, why not just destroy it because if the necrons can do supreme damage to their god which is highly vulnerable to warp energy and a set of spaceships can kill a full ctan, why couldnt the emperor who can command crazy power not destroy a tiny percentage of the whole.


The Emperor trapped a shard of the Dragon, not the Nightbringer. And he trapped it to use it for his own purposes. Further, the lore suggests that even the shards cannot be destroyed, only that they are easier to control than the full gods themselves. 



> when all is said and done you shard groupies just dont want to admit the severity of the plot holes that werent thought out before publication of the codex. like i said before i really like the new necron character stuff but the shard stuff is really sloppy and not even original.


These "plot holes" can be explained. Maybe if you applied as much energy to using your imagination and a bit of logic as you do to complaining you'd see it. I and others have been offering explanations for most of the thread. Did you read it all or are you just latching on to Deadeye's posts?



> hell from what ive read in fall of damnos some of the necron highcommand are deranged anyway and the underlings are nearly all mindless too so how any of them had enough about them to rebel, devise a plan to deminish their gods power and actually pull off this plan off just seems absurd.


Necron warriors are mindless, yes. Immortals and lychguard are of limited intelligence. Nobility and royalty however are fully aware of their desires and thoughts. The Unfleshed was infliced with a virus, and the Undying was descending into madness, accounting for their eccentricities. I will stress however, that these afflictions did not exist at the time of the rebellion, but were brought about from the weight of time.



> and some of you guys laugh at the return of a primarch! pfft!


Depends on the primarch in question mate. :wink:



Deadeye776 said:


> Stop the pretentiousness. I understand everything you said. I'm not in some idiotic rage over this. I don't play the table top game. That said I don't think the story I enjoy should be sacrificed for you to enjoy your side of 40k. You would have lost absolutely nothing if they'd created these characters and left the C'tan alone. The books and fluff would still be the same and you'd have more specialized characters to play with. You could have the Silent King and his minions with the other C'tan just the same. Maybe have them try and enact the plyon tech so they would have their gods be ablet to dominate this universe without any foreign energy that they couldn't manipulate. By sacrificing the C'tan to make the Necrons more powerful all you've done is weaken potentially one of the coolest stories BL produced since we heard Ephrael Stern had a sex tape.......okay I made that up.


There is a very simple way to look at this Deadeye, one I don't think you've considered.

It is not your story to write. It is not your Intellectual property to dictate. It is not your place to say what gw should or shouldn't do with what they own. 

Get over yourself. 

I am content, I am fucking stoked that they would put as much effort into the necron lore as they did. Say what you want, yes the old lore had potential, but the new lore has much more. There are literally hundreds of plotline possibilities involving any number of former star gods, there are equally as many possibilities for creating your own god shards, your own dynasties, unique characters and the myriad of stories you can apply to them. 

You enjoy the lore you say? You think that you shouldn't suffer for gw wanting to keep the gamers happy? 

Newsflash: They're a games company. Their name is GAMES Workshop. The fact that they write better lore than any other TT game company kind of speaks to their dedication wouldn't you say? 

I for one, as an amateur writer and fluff enthusiast, am grateful for what they've done. And I don't think I should suffer limitations on the part of the hobby I enjoy most just to keep people like you happy. 

:victory:


----------



## ckcrawford

We would have to agree to disagree Serpion5. 

As the necron player that you are, I see why you would be more pleased with the fluff. I look at how I would react if someone boosted a codex of my favorite chapter or legion. And even to the extent of great change in fluff, would I agree with GW. However, we saw it with the Grey Knights. Seriously... WTF GW. This shit is really fucked up. In all fairness, what this means to me, is that GW doesn't give a shit about just completely giving a new makeover to any race or army. 

I also think it pokes at the Heresy Fluff, which really annoys me. I guess I shouldn't get too mad because they haven't completely destroyed the fact that the Mechanicum still gets its power from the C'tan. But a shard? The Emperor of Mankind, even pretty much a corpse can prevent chaos from totally fucking terra, but it can't even kill a shard. This is some fucking bullshit.


----------



## gally912

Malus Darkblade said:


> A daemon would know nothing of technology and even if it did, why would it feed the mechanicum cult with knowledge?


Possessed vehicles disagree with you


----------



## Davidicus 40k

ckcrawford said:


> But a shard? The Emperor of Mankind, even pretty much a corpse can prevent chaos from totally fucking terra, but it can't even kill a shard. This is some fucking bullshit.


Perhaps GW shouldn't have used the term "shard" and instead used "clone" or something similar. People think that because the C'tan are now split into _shards of near-unlimited power_, they are somehow gimped losers who can't do anything.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

@serpion5 just to correct myself, i did mean the void dragon but was thinking about ventris at the time so my mistake.

as for the other stuff, its abit rich of you saying im latching on to deadeyes stuff when i had my own opinion when clearly you just trying to suck cote balls because you look up to him in some weird geek forum way. each to their own.

anyway as for what you saying about me having some imagination about the ctan fluff. why would i want to have to make up reasons to believe the new fluff when i think its a load of crap. its not appealing to me, full of reasons to pick it apart and quite frankly if it wasnt such a mishmash of other characters fluff but with different names and it had seemed like it had abit of originality about it id probably like it. 
it not like im disliking it for the sake of it, its because it doesnt make sense, isnt a evolution of old fluff in a way that it makes sense, sounds cool and fits into to other stuff without it creating issues with several other plots.

its like its been made by someone who has just flicked through a detailed layout of ctan lore and made up a story from their own mind without thinking about what has already been laid down.

just because you think its great doesnt mean that anyone that hates it is wrong (which you are pretty much implying) but when you can pick holes through everything, the success of whats laid down as new lore is deminised and just creates a negative impact on 40k as a whole. 

i mean having a necron having the power to destroy their god is on par with a astartes having the power to destroy the emperor and how ridiculous does that sound.

anyway im not trying to convince you to change your mind and you wont convince me about your views so theres no point really carrying on with you on this topic really is there?!

oh and how is one primarch coming back any different to another?


----------



## SoulGazer

Daemons pretty much know everything. The only things they don't know are things that aren't touched by the warp, and there are precious few things that have that ability. Human pariahs and blanks and some rare Necron technology. Not sure what else can do that.

C'tan can be destroyed, one of them was, the one who gave the Necrons the Flayer virus when he exploded. There's no explanation as to why only this one died and the others only sharded. A Shard is not so much a shard of _power_ so much as it is a shard of the C'tan's personality/soul. A Shard still has all the power of a full C'tan, but maybe not the need or desire to use it all. It also might not have the sentience required to rebel. Some shards, however, do indeed retain the need to rebel(but not the memories of all their powers, hence why they don't just blow up all the Necrons around them,) and it's those ones that are hardly ever released cause they might escape and try to reform with the rest of itself.

Also, Lychguard and Praetorians are perfectly sentient. The Praetorians annoyingly so to most Necrons, since they hate the Praetorians' need for honor and whatnot. Vargard Obyron is a good example of a non-royalty Necron who is perfectly aware of what's going on, and he's damn good at what he does.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Davidicus 40k said:


> Perhaps GW shouldn't have used the term "shard" and instead used "clone" or something similar. People think that because the C'tan are now split into _shards of near-unlimited power_, they are somehow gimped losers who can't do anything.


Cultists bond daemons within vehicles, they don't choose a vehicle to possess but even if they did, it doesn't mean they know how it works. 

Being creatures of the warp, they can take over anything.


----------



## Deadeye776

SoulGazer said:


> Daemons pretty much know everything. The only things they don't know are things that aren't touched by the warp, and there are precious few things that have that ability. Human pariahs and blanks and some rare Necron technology. Not sure what else can do that.
> 
> C'tan can be destroyed, one of them was, the one who gave the Necrons the Flayer virus when he exploded. There's no explanation as to why only this one died and the others only sharded. A Shard is not so much a shard of _power_ so much as it is a shard of the C'tan's personality/soul. A Shard still has all the power of a full C'tan, but maybe not the need or desire to use it all. It also might not have the sentience required to rebel. Some shards, however, do indeed retain the need to rebel(but not the memories of all their powers, hence why they don't just blow up all the Necrons around them,) and it's those ones that are hardly ever released cause they might escape and try to reform with the rest of itself.
> 
> Also, Lychguard and Praetorians are perfectly sentient. The Praetorians annoyingly so to most Necrons, since they hate the Praetorians' need for honor and whatnot. Vargard Obyron is a good example of a non-royalty Necron who is perfectly aware of what's going on, and he's damn good at what he does.


 


Daemons pretty much know everything except things that aren't touched by the warp.......Well seeing as how this is a thread about the Necron's and the C'tan's new fluff I can confidently say almost EVERYTHING we're discussing are untouched by the warp as this is the race the originally created pariahs (who knows anymore). The only tech imperium has that in vehicle form has to do with the warp are gellar feilds. While weapons exist here and there that utilize warp power the lion share of it has nothing to do with the warp. The daemons possess vehicles to animate them. Doesn't make them experts, if anything they do it because sitting down at the console and working it like a pro is not a possibility for a creature that is most likely a raving beast. Chaos doesn't know shit about technology. They use daemons to animate things they can't pilot and warp energy (basically psyker magic) to make things go. The only guys who make these tech jumps are the traitor and renegades. Daemons don't sit around innovating shit. This new fluff is stupid and deep down you all know it. Why? If the Necrons have the ability to defeat Gods of power like the C'tan then there is no force in the materium that can defeat them. Even fragmented. 

The example was used about the GK fluff going into Chuck Noris counts to Infinity and talks candidly about Fight Club realm. Who's got tech like these guys? Before this change the Necron army was the most advanced race in 40k with tech no one had seen since.....ever. Now? They have been upgraded from advanced to godlike. They, I mean the entire race is immortal. So a race of immortals with godlike killing technology are now playable characters and in the fluff? Who's or what the hell is stopping that? I mean let's get serious? It's like an entire race of Kaldor Draigo's. Who can stand against something of this magnitude? I'm honestly asking the question to all of you who enjoy this new bullshit. They've defeated the Void Dragon possibly making what the Emperor faced a shard and he couldn't destroy it. They've defeated the Nightbringer. The Deciever. The Outsider. Along with the C'tan they've defeated the Old Ones becoming immortals. Who the fuck else in 40k has this kind of record? You know what, just make them the new protagonists, destroy the Imperium by letting Chaos devour it and then imploding itself and let 40k be the Necrons vs the Tyranids.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Unknown Primarch said:


> so how are you shard groupies gonna explain the outsider then?
> 
> crazy ass ctan trapped in a dyson sphere because its highly dangerous to all life but new fluff might suggest its just a fraction of the god.


Even in the old lore, there was little more than a few sentences of lore on the Outsider. As far as I am aware, there is nothing but very vague implications that suggest anything like a dyson sphere.

But still, if there is a shard of the Outsider within a dyson sphere that poses no problems. The shards are still entities of _"near-unlimited power"_ and pose one of the greatest threats in the galaxy. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> what would be the point of trapping it in there when there could be a ton of other bits of it in the galaxy somewhere?


Try this analogy:

If you have five prisoners escaped from a high-security prison, would you rather recapture and imprison one or recapture none at all?

Would people rather have a shard of a C'tan afoot within the galaxy or imprison it? It makes no difference to it being a shard or not, imprisoning a powerful and dangerous entity is a positive thing. Try not to think of the C'tan shards as shards, think of them as dangerous entities that wield _"near-unlimited power"_ in and of themselves. At one point they just happened to be the sum of a larger part. 

Also, there may have only been a single shard of the Outsider that escaped the Necron Tesseract Labyrinths - which was then isolated within the dyson sphere... who knows?



Unknown Primarch said:


> and if the shards contain some past memorys of the ctan then containing abit of it in a prison seems pretty pointless when it can carry on its evil schemes using another piece of its body considering you think they dont always have to be under necron control. but then a god under a minions control just sounds the most dumbest thing ive ever heard.


There is no evidence to suggest that the C'tan shards are intrinsically linked. One shard cannot control another, even if they once made up the same C'tan. As I said before, try to think of the shards as completley individual entities in themselves, not part of a greater entity. You will be able to get on board easier if you can accept that truth.



Unknown Primarch said:


> pretty much goes for why would the emperor trap the nightbringer in a prison if it was a shard, why not just destroy it because if the necrons can do supreme damage to their god which is highly vulnerable to warp energy and a set of spaceships can kill a full ctan, why couldnt the emperor who can command crazy power not destroy a tiny percentage of the whole.


The Emperor imprisoned the shard of the Void Dragon seemingly because he wasn't able to destroy it utterly and needed it to influence the ideology of the Martians in preparation for the Great Crusade. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> when all is said and done you shard groupies just dont want to admit the severity of the plot holes that werent thought out before publication of the codex. like i said before i really like the new necron character stuff but the shard stuff is really sloppy and not even original.


I am one of the most knowledgable 40k lore enthusiasts on these forums, and I see no plot holes whatsoever with the C'tan shards. Nor have I see any reasoned arguments to suggest that the C'tan shards do not neatly fit into the existing lore.

Whilst the term _"shard"_ does seem to imply (to some people) that the C'tan shards are weak and pathetic, they are not. The shards are entities of _"near-unlimited power"_ and should be considered entities in and of themselves, try not to think of them as shards (despite them being termed such). 



Unknown Primarch said:


> hell from what ive read in fall of damnos some of the necron highcommand are deranged anyway and the underlings are nearly all mindless too so how any of them had enough about them to rebel, devise a plan to deminish their gods power and actually pull off this plan off just seems absurd.
> 
> and some of you guys laugh at the return of a primarch! pfft!


The Necrons rebelled at the directive of the Silent King, that is explained within the new codex.



Deadeye776 said:


> They barter and trade with the Imperium? What happened to the xenophobia, these guys represent everything that the Emperor feared from the xenos. Now they are trading with an Empire that makes any xenos threat pale in comparison save maybe for the Tyranids? How does this make sense?


The Imperium is highly hypocritical. Despite officially being violently xenophobic, certain factions often trade or ally with xenos species.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

A dyson sphere? Is that some kind of 40K super-efficient vacuum cleaner that sucks up C'Tan, but has issues with chinese companies producing knock-off versions of it despite it's galaxy-wide accepted patents?


----------



## SoulGazer

spanner94ezekiel said:


> A dyson sphere? Is that some kind of 40K super-efficient vacuum cleaner that sucks up C'Tan, but has issues with chinese companies producing knock-off versions of it despite it's galaxy-wide accepted patents?


A dyson sphere is a real concept. It is a structure so large it encompasses an entire solar system and gathers energy from the star of said system. It's like harvesting a star, produces infinite energy as long as the star is burning. The C'tan was just trapped in it... somehow... using the energy of the star to.... keep it in there, I dunno, it wasn't a well thought out idea on GW's part. But meh, that's what a dyson sphere is.


----------



## Sothot

Necrons are perfectly capable of dying without the ability to resurrect themselves. In Fall of Damnos, a torture device disallowing self repair is described, and the codex states necrons can be damaged to the point of no return. If you bother to read the lore, you'll see that they aren't godlike by any stretch. The Necrons act like Saturday morning cartoon villains. Imotekh especially. Fragmenting the C'tan cost the Necrons billions of "lives". Also, many of the Necron's constructs did not survive the great sleep. Hardly omnipotent beings, in my eyes.


----------



## SoulGazer

Deadeye776 said:


> The daemons possess vehicles to animate them. Doesn't make them experts


Daemons can know anything and everything a mortal can and more. They know anything they want to know. GW does what it pleases. 

Case in point: a race of undead Egyptian robot god-killers is just as easily beaten by Ultrasmurfs as are an unstoppable, innumerable tide of space insect monsters. Because GW.

All of this nonsense always comes back to them. And then we go back to the stores and buy more of their stuff. Never-ending cycle of derp and lulz.


----------



## Sothot

:goodpost:


----------



## Deadeye776

Before everything began to change they dealt with xenos tech the same way they dealt with chaos items:They picked them up from the dead and defeated corpses of their enemies and studied them. Defeated chaos champions having their weapons taken and reworked or xenos breeds being defeated and having their weapons used against them.That's usually how it happened. Now it's turned into open trade with a species who above the eldar are more dangerous than the dark eldar and orks combined. Maybe only the tyranids approach how insidious the Necron are. Just a new change now. Usually radicals in the Inquisition who do this sort of thing get executed because it starts you down a path where you end up in the enemies pocket. Now it's SOP.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

SoulGazer said:


> Daemons can know anything and everything a mortal can and more. They know anything they want to know. GW does what it pleases.
> 
> Case in point: a race of undead Egyptian robot god-killers is just as easily beaten by Ultrasmurfs as are an unstoppable, innumerable tide of space insect monsters. Because GW.
> 
> All of this nonsense always comes back to them. And then we go back to the stores and buy more of their stuff. Never-ending cycle of derp and lulz.


That's the main flaw with building a great sci-fi universe around a tabletop game. The game (and its balance, and its popularity, and its sales) comes first. It's been this way for 27 years. Not going to change anytime soon. Besides, I was under the impression that people *wanted* Chaos to become the biggest badasses in the galaxy, as it seems that's what GW is paving the way for.


----------



## Serpion5

Unknown Primarch said:


> @serpion5 just to correct myself, i did mean the void dragon but was thinking about ventris at the time so my mistake.
> 
> as for the other stuff, its abit rich of you saying im latching on to deadeyes stuff when i had my own opinion when clearly you just trying to suck cote balls because you look up to him in some weird geek forum way. each to their own.


Actually, I think I was posting my opinions here long before CotE was. Again, did you read the thread? And what makes you think I would want to suck his balls? We both know xenos is my strong point more than his. Further, while he may know more solid lore than I do across more topics, he does not by any stretch have MY imagination.  Besides which, I have long surpassed any need to prove myself to him or anyone else. :smoke:



> anyway as for what you saying about me having some imagination about the ctan fluff. why would i want to have to make up reasons to believe the new fluff when i think its a load of crap. its not appealing to me, full of reasons to pick it apart and quite frankly if it wasnt such a mishmash of other characters fluff but with different names and it had seemed like it had abit of originality about it id probably like it.
> it not like im disliking it for the sake of it, its because it doesnt make sense, isnt a evolution of old fluff in a way that it makes sense, sounds cool and fits into to other stuff without it creating issues with several other plots.


I guess i just have this insane idea that looking at the positives generates more enjoyment than incessant nitpicking because you like what something used to be. And I can't help it if you refuse to see any of the explanations I or others have offered to fill the gaps. It makes sense. Remember that the bulk of this lore happens at points in history where nothing has been cemented and we only have one side of the story in most cases. Again, failure of imagination on your part does not mean that things cannot be explained. 



> its like its been made by someone who has just flicked through a detailed layout of ctan lore and made up a story from their own mind without thinking about what has already been laid down.


As I said before, a c'tan shard may as well be a god compared to most instances that matter. Emperor, Ultramarines, Deus Ex Mechanicus, all of these make perfect sense if you assume shards.



> just because you think its great doesnt mean that anyone that hates it is wrong (which you are pretty much implying) but when you can pick holes through everything, the success of whats laid down as new lore is deminised and just creates a negative impact on 40k as a whole.


I'm not implying that you can't have an opinion, merely stating that your refusal to see any but your own views is to a point ignorant. 

For example, you dislike change because you preferred the necrons as the old implacable immortal killers who serve omnipotent gods right? Wow that's original and fresh... oh wait, it's Chaos by a different name. 

But a race who fought the most powerful race we know of, and then proceeded to overthrow their own gods. That is new to 40k, that is something they can do without rendering their previous lore irrelevant because there was little enough to tie it in.



> i mean having a necron having the power to destroy their god is on par with a astartes having the power to destroy the emperor and how ridiculous does that sound.


No, because the necrons were given the knowledge and technology by the c'tan because the c'tan were confident in their own superiority. The necrons struck by surprise, lost trillions of their own and only succeeded in fragmenting their gods. Many shards are unaccounted for. 

The Emperor on the other hand, did not tell the astartes how to create primarchs, has not enlightened them to the inner workings of physiology and technology to which he alone was privy, hell he didn't even tell the primarchs about the full threat posed by the warp. 

The Emperor kept his winning cards to himself, the c'tan did not.



> anyway im not trying to convince you to change your mind and you wont convince me about your views so theres no point really carrying on with you on this topic really is there?!


Up to you mate. :biggrin: 



> oh and how is one primarch coming back any different to another?


Simple. Some are confirmed dead.


----------



## Nightside

Wow,i suddenly realized something,could be wrong but i didn't see anything about this in the new codex.

If all C'tan are now "shards" what about the Outsider?Wasn't he driven insane before the necrons coup d'état?

Nobody has asked this yet,right?


----------



## Serpion5

Yes. Yes they have.


----------



## Nightside

Serpion5 said:


> Yes. Yes they have.


Snap.And here i thought i finally had an amazing new idea


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> You haven't thought this through enough. If you read as many sources as you are able to, it starts to make sense. DoW: Tempest gives a flashback to events of the War in Heaven that are quite enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because the Chaos gods are permanently comprised of the warp and inseparable from it. That boundary did not exist for the c'tan and so gw attempted to account for it. Remember the lore was very different back then as were game mechanics.
> 
> 
> 
> The new lore does nothing to disallow necrons still loyal to the c'tan.
> 
> 
> 
> I explained this above. Read DoW: Tempest if you want more info. Or ask me nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> If you worshipped a god for a million years or so, then realized you had the power to conquer it, would you be content to continue worshipping it?
> 
> 
> 
> The Emperor trapped a shard of the Dragon, not the Nightbringer. And he trapped it to use it for his own purposes. Further, the lore suggests that even the shards cannot be destroyed, only that they are easier to control than the full gods themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> These "plot holes" can be explained. Maybe if you applied as much energy to using your imagination and a bit of logic as you do to complaining you'd see it. I and others have been offering explanations for most of the thread. Did you read it all or are you just latching on to Deadeye's posts?
> 
> 
> 
> Necron warriors are mindless, yes. Immortals and lychguard are of limited intelligence. Nobility and royalty however are fully aware of their desires and thoughts. The Unfleshed was infliced with a virus, and the Undying was descending into madness, accounting for their eccentricities. I will stress however, that these afflictions did not exist at the time of the rebellion, but were brought about from the weight of time.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the primarch in question mate. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a very simple way to look at this Deadeye, one I don't think you've considered.
> 
> It is not your story to write. It is not your Intellectual property to dictate. It is not your place to say what gw should or shouldn't do with what they own.
> 
> Get over yourself.
> 
> I am content, I am fucking stoked that they would put as much effort into the necron lore as they did. Say what you want, yes the old lore had potential, but the new lore has much more. There are literally hundreds of plotline possibilities involving any number of former star gods, there are equally as many possibilities for creating your own god shards, your own dynasties, unique characters and the myriad of stories you can apply to them.
> 
> You enjoy the lore you say? You think that you shouldn't suffer for gw wanting to keep the gamers happy?
> 
> Newsflash: They're a games company. Their name is GAMES Workshop. The fact that they write better lore than any other TT game company kind of speaks to their dedication wouldn't you say?
> 
> I for one, as an amateur writer and fluff enthusiast, am grateful for what they've done. And I don't think I should suffer limitations on the part of the hobby I enjoy most just to keep people like you happy.
> 
> :victory:


 




If I want to voice my opinions on a story that makes absolutely no sense,pal, feel completely free to ignore. I don't think once in my original messages was I looking for you to validate or comment on an opinion I made. So please,feel free to get over your own ego that thinks that I should be happy with everything that's put out by GW because your ass is. This thread was started to discuss the new fluff and that's what we're doing. Some of you like it, some us don't. Same thing went down with the GK's new codex where a lot of people were upset there was a lone Grey Knight in the warp wiping his ass with the Chaos Gods and their domains. I put out a theory of how I thought this might be possible. For this however this isn't a discovery of new information or a new perspective. It's a damn rewrite to the story. So yes,those of us who liked it the way it was saw no reason for the sake of specialized characters who could have easily have been created in the original fluff to sacrifice the C'tan's dominance. Don't tell me them being in shards from getting there asses handed to them by the Necrons is something that doesn't matter because they are just as powerful. That's bullshit and you know it. What the hell get's split up into shards and retains it's full power?Nothing. That shards of great power crap is bullshit. The term shard itself implies somthing that is fractured and when the being was originally termed as a God among other things yes it is a downgrade. To wrap this up, I don't know who you are or what you do. If your not apart of the BL,GW,or involved in writing character bio's feel free to realize I couldn't care less about your thoughts opinions and you shouldn't care about mine. If your happy with the fluff why do you care what we are discussing? They aren't going to change it because we are unhappy. We are just discussing how it doesn't make sense as far as the universe goes. It's amazing that because a story changed the way some tool wants it, he get's upset when other people aren't happy like a some spoiled brat that's upset kids are pissed he's the only one with a bike.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Unknown Primarch said:


> clearly you just trying to suck cote balls because you look up to him in some weird geek forum way. each to their own.


It's more like we have a mutual respect for each other on this forum because we both know that we have a deep understanding of 40k lore. 



Deadeye776 said:


> because they are just as powerful. That's bullshit and you know it. What the hell get's split up into shards and retains it's full power?Nothing. That shards of great power crap is bullshit. The term shard itself implies somthing that is fractured and when the being was originally termed as a God among other things yes it is a downgrade.


Please quote someone from this thread that has stated that the C'tan shards are as powerful as the C'tan. I guarantee if you respond to this you will not be able to - because no one has said that.

What we have said is that the C'tan shards are still beings of _"near-unlimited power"_ (as per the codex) and are not weak or pathetic as some of your previous posts have suggested.



Deadeye776 said:


> We are just discussing how it doesn't make sense as far as the universe goes.


Myself and _Serpion_ (amongst others) have shown that the new C'tan lore fits in perfectly with pre-existing 40k lore. You may not like it, and that's fair enough. But there is no way you can say it does not co-exist peacefully with previous lore.


----------



## gally912

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Please quote someone from this thread that has stated that the C'tan shards are as powerful as the C'tan. I guarantee if you respond to this you will not be able to - because no one has said that.





SoulGazer said:


> A Shard is not so much a shard of _power_ so much as it is a shard of the C'tan's personality/soul. A Shard still has all the power of a full C'tan, but maybe not the need or desire to use it all. It also might not have the sentience required to rebel. Some shards, however, do indeed retain the need to rebel(but not the memories of all their powers, hence why they don't just blow up all the Necrons around them,) and it's those ones that are hardly ever released cause they might escape and try to reform with the rest of itself.



Although I'm cool with shards. They can be of varying power and personality, and so none of the old fluff is really contradicted. Well, except the "there's only 4 C'tan cause they killed eachother off". I like to imagine the Outsider is still whole and off somewhere being crazy, and leaving the threat of his return.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Okay, I stand corrected on that one! Should have really read _SoulGazer_'s posts more clearly!

EDIT: Although, on closer inspection: No where in _Codex: Necrons_ does it outright state that the C'tan shards are weaker than the original C'tan. The only implication we have of that is: _"C'tan shards are all that remain of the once mighty star-gods. They are echoes of their former selves, splinters of energy that survived the Necrons' betrayal and were enslaved in turn."_

Where as the following could be used to support _SoulGazer_'s statment: _"*C'tan shards are beings of near-unlimited power*... Indeed, *a C'tan shard's abilities are limited only by two things: it's imagination* - which is immense - *and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed*. Whilst no individual C'tan shard has full recall of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far vaster and more puissant being. Though a C'tan shard has the power to reduce a tank to molten slag with but a gesture, it simply might not occur to it to do so, as it's gesalt primogenitor would have tackled the situation through other means..."_

Is that idea more reconcilable with you anti-shardists?


----------



## ckcrawford

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Is that idea more reconcilable with you anti-shardists?


I am still deeply disturbed by this new information.:grin: The necrons firstly have these really cool toys that are able to turn these C'tan into shards. Which not even the Black Fortresses were able to do to one of these C'tan. 

I don't doubt the Necrons probably lost a great amount of themselves during the C'tan purge. But how could they have done that to absolutely all of them? Did they tell them to just stand on a spot that says _AIM HERE!_ and poof, they all turned into shards? I would assume that they would have turned to survival methods of dispersing to all corners of the galaxy, and found some way to fight back against the necrons and their new toys. Maybe even seek the help of other races. 

Basically, the new fluff is too quick to address the fact that they _ALL_ turned into shards. Apparently, the Emperor can't even destroy shard. But the Necrons have the power to take every single C'tan (the most powerful things probably in the galaxy) and turn them into shards which they can control.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> I am still deeply disturbed by this new information.:grin: The necrons firstly have these really cool toys that are able to turn these C'tan into shards. Which not even the Black Fortresses were able to do to one of these C'tan.
> 
> I don't doubt the Necrons probably lost a great amount of themselves during the C'tan purge. But how could they have done that to absolutely all of them? Did they tell them to just stand on a spot that says _AIM HERE!_ and poof, they all turned into shards? I would assume that they would have turned to survival methods of dispersing to all corners of the galaxy, and found some way to fight back against the necrons and their new toys. Maybe even seek the help of other races.
> 
> Basically, the new fluff is too quick to address the fact that they _ALL_ turned into shards. Apparently, the Emperor can't even destroy shard. But the Necrons have the power to take every single C'tan (the most powerful things probably in the galaxy) and turn them into shards which they can control.


Very little is known about the _Silent King's betrayal_. But as to why the Necrons were able to shatter the C'tan in the first place: the Silent King waited until the C'tan were spent and vulnerable after the War in Heaven; the C'tan were too arrogant to realise the danger the Necrons actually posed; the Necrons shattered them by focussing the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe"_; and because of their transformation into Necrons (rather than remaining the Necrontyr) the Silent King had the unwavering allegience of the entire Necron race.

It wasn't an easy rebellion though, countless Necrons were destoryed as was the entire Triarch (bar the Silent King) in the process. The rebellion against the C'tan ensured that the Necrons were not able to challenge the rise of the Eldar, which they easily would have been (even without the C'tan) if they hadn't rebelled.

But in regards to how it was directly achieved, the focussing of the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe"_ could be interpreted to suggest that the Necrons turned the C'tan's own energy against them (and knew how to do so after being allied to the C'tan for a long time). Where as everyone elses attempts to destory a C'tan (Talismans of Vaul, the Emperor et cetera) utilised warp energy instead.

As to whether or not every single C'tan was shattered, we simply don't know. I don't think the codex is explicit either way. It does state though that not every C'tan shard is accounted for and not all are imprisoned by the Necrons.


----------



## Deadeye776

\\


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's more like we have a mutual respect for each other on this forum because we both know that we have a deep understanding of 40k lore.
> 
> 
> 
> Please quote someone from this thread that has stated that the C'tan shards are as powerful as the C'tan. I guarantee if you respond to this you will not be able to - because no one has said that.
> 
> What we have said is that the C'tan shards are still beings of _"near-unlimited power"_ (as per the codex) and are not weak or pathetic as some of your previous posts have suggested.
> 
> 
> No, it wasn't that you were saying they were as powerful. But let's not bullshit each other.If I shattered you into shards, you wouldn't be even half the man you are now. The C'tan have been greatly diminished in ability and intellect and when we brought you all were saying that the shards are powerful as well. Yeah, I wasn't say they were weak per se. I am saying that the C'tan are weak compared to their former selves. There was no need for a downgrade.I enjoyed the Nighbringer the way he was.
> 
> 
> Myself and _Serpion_ (amongst others) have shown that the new C'tan lore fits in perfectly with pre-existing 40k lore. You may not like it, and that's fair enough. But there is no way you can say it does not co-exist peacefully with previous lore.


 
It makes sense to you. In every book that's featured a C'tan, the reason for their weakness has been because of being starved for energy. In Mechanicum when the Emperor fights the Dragon it says Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: In the memories of the Dragon of Mars: He waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. 

This is the reason they were all weak to begin with. Kind of like the Highlander series, they figured through coaxing (whether it was Laughing God or The Deciever is debatable) there should only be one. They fought each other and with the lack of food and the effort they were weakened. In this state is when he fought the Emperor. So yeah, with your new shard bullshit it makes absolutely no sense. In Nightbringer when confronted by Ventris and Pasanius the Nightbringer is simlilarly weakened and trying to get to his ship which Ventris threatens to destroy if he didn't back off and not kill them. The Nightbringer realizes he's too weak to roll without it and gives them a pass and escapes. Why hell would a shard utilize a ship escpecially when it already had Necron "overseers" with it at the time of it's awakening?The truth is that he wasn't a shard and he wanted to get to his ship so he could power up. So again the shard explanation doesn't fit here either. You may think you have explained your new fluff into the old but you can't. It's been retconned, not updated. Huge difference. The books we read and enjoyed are no longer part of the canon. The Emperor didn't face any freaking shard. Nohwere in your codex does it talk about a shard war against other shard to establish shard dominance. The dragons memories, y'know the memories shards are not supposed to have completely, new exactly how it had gotten to where it was and why it was too weak to face the Emperor properly and prevent it's current imprisonment. It offered the new girl unlimited power and showed her memories of it remembering it roaming the universe and devouring stars and being worshiped. That doesn't fit into your codex. So yeah, it's a rewrite. Stop trying to explain how it fits because the whole purpose of this is that the old fluff is out the window. The sacrificed the C'tan badass background in favor of elevating the Necrons when you could have easily had both. That's my argument. 


P.s. If you look at the original description and abilities your realize how stupid that "living energies of the universe" bullshit is. Creatures made from the what? Oh yeah the living energy of the universe are defeated by the living energy of the universe. You can't destroy something by hitting it with what it's made out of. These things are made of and eat the living energy of the universe to include stars and life force. The only energy they don't control is warp energy.If you read somewhere in new fluff the Chaos Gods were shattered into shards by daemons by unleashing unimaginable warp energ it would sound ridculous. The gods are and weild unimaginable warp energy. They would absorb and feed on it. Same thing with the C'tan. The C'tan were created from the initial big bang of the universe and are living energy creatures of the materium. They feed on energy. So that's why the new fluff is moronic to us. If you like it then fine. Being a Necron fan, this is like a huge come up. In truth the Necron's were one of the only factions besides chaos who could utilize Gods at their full power. That's why they went after the Void Dragon on Mars. With the new fluff they could have just traded with it since they are cool with the Imperium. From emotionless phantoms of death representing Gods on par with Chaos to trading partners. The Eldar aren't even that docile.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> It makes sense to you. In every book that's featured a C'tan, the reason for their weakness has been because of being starved for energy. In Mechanicum when the Emperor fights the Dragon it says Mechanicum, Part 3, Chapter 3: In the memories of the Dragon of Mars: He waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra.
> 
> This is the reason they were all weak to begin with. Kind of like the Highlander series, they figured through coaxing (whether it was Laughing God or The Deciever is debatable) there should only be one. They fought each other and with the lack of food and the effort they were weakened. In this state is when he fought the Emperor. So yeah, with your new shard bullshit it makes absolutely no sense. In Nightbringer when confronted by Ventris and Pasanius the Nightbringer is simlilarly weakened and trying to get to his ship which Ventris threatens to destroy if he didn't back off and not kill them. The Nightbringer realizes he's too weak to roll without it and gives them a pass and escapes... The truth is that he wasn't a shard and he wanted to get to his ship so he could power up. So again the shard explanation doesn't fit here either. You may think you have explained your new fluff into the old but you can't. It's been retconned, not updated. Huge difference. The books we read and enjoyed are no longer part of the canon. The Emperor didn't face any freaking shard. Nohwere in your codex does it talk about a shard war against other shard to establish shard dominance... It offered the new girl unlimited power That doesn't fit into your codex. So yeah, it's a rewrite. Stop trying to explain how it fits because the whole purpose of this is that the old fluff is out the window. The sacrificed the C'tan badass background in favor of elevating the Necrons when you could have easily had both. That's my argument.


The shard lore fits into the established lore with a bit of artistic license, and thats the key here. Every single sentence relating to the C'tan in _Mechanicum_ or _Nightbringer_ may not make perfect sense in light of the new lore, but with a simple bit of artistic license the shard-lore can be imported into the plots without too much hassel. It is something that has to be accepted when new lore is introduced, and artistic license is the way to do that.



Deadeye776 said:


> The dragons memories, y'know the memories shards are not supposed to have completely, new exactly how it had gotten to where it was and why it was too weak to face the Emperor properly and prevent it's current imprisonment.


C'tan shards possess memories of it's predecessor, just not complete memories. So its perfectly plausable that a shard of the Void Dragon can vaguely remember feeding on stars and being worshipped.



Deadeye776 said:


> P.s. If you look at the original description and abilities your realize how stupid that "living energies of the universe" bullshit is. Creatures made from the what? Oh yeah the living energy of the universe are defeated by the living energy of the universe. You can't destroy something by hitting it with what it's made out of.


You're taking issue we something we basically have no information about. We have a couple of sentences of information of the Silent King's betrayal, and know only that the Necrons somehow weaponised the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe."_ Beyond that we don't know how the rebellion played out. But it should be taken into account that the C'tan were/are basically impossible to destroy (which the Silent King acknowledged), thus the Necrons somehow employed the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe"_ to shatter (rather than destroy) them.



Deadeye776 said:


> That's why they went after the Void Dragon on Mars. With the new fluff they could have just traded with it since they are cool with the Imperium. From emotionless phantoms of death representing Gods on par with Chaos to trading partners. The Eldar aren't even that docile.


Well that's not exactly true though is it? The Emperor wouldn't have been able to initiate the Great Crusade without imprisoning a shard of the Void Dragon (and thus influencing the ideology/philosophy and technological advancement of Mars). The Emperor wouldn't have been willing to rely all his plans for humanity on the good will of a C'tan shard. 

And it's not exactly all of the Necron dynasties/kingdoms that are willing to trade with the Imperium and other factions, only a handful are.


----------



## Serpion5

As far as trading partners goes, there are far more necrons who have set out to destroy then there are who have set out to trade. 

The likes of Imotekh, Zandrekh, Anrakyr, and the majority of former phaerons and such are out to reclaim their empires first and foremost. Those willing to trade with lesser races are well within the minority.


@Deadeye: Yes we are discussing. Everyone has an opinion and there are disagreements, hence the discussion continues. You keep saying we won't agree, but you keep posting so the discussion continues yes? I'm fine with this.


----------



## Sothot

I am made of carbon particles. I can be killed by carbon particles, if they are shaped remotely like a bullet. It is completely logical that something can be destroyed by what it is comprised of.
Deadeye, we get that you don't like the new ideas gw put out but you have a baseless argument and you keep saying the same thing over and over, that "it's bullshit and we all know it". Now, i'm having a blast upping my post count saying over and over again that the new fluff is awesome and the new codex is the best thing to happen to necrons since... Sharding the C'tan, incidentally! 

If you recall, originally the C'tan weren't even gods. They were aliens who had the power to bend the material to their will, and as such, it was not long before they were perceived and worshiped as gods. From your 3rd edition codex.


----------



## ckcrawford

I think it'd be interesting what Graham McNeill thinks about this, since he wrote the last codex, _Mechanicum_, and the new novel about Mars.

How will he and authors revolve their works around the codex. I really doubt this was talked about with them. But its a good question to ask.


----------



## Serpion5

ckcrawford said:


> I think it'd be interesting what Graham McNeill thinks about this, since he wrote the last codex, _Mechanicum_, and the new novel about Mars.
> 
> How will he and authors revolve their works around the codex. I really doubt this was talked about with them. But its a good question to ask.


The Nightbringer and the Dragon in those novels were shards. This is easy to resolve into the new fluff and doesn't take anything from those stories. The Ultramarines could not have been aware of the true nature of what they fought, and the Dragon having incomplete memories is consistent with the new codex lore.

There is no problem here.


----------



## ckcrawford

Serpion5 said:


> The Nightbringer and the Dragon in those novels were shards. This is easy to resolve into the new fluff and doesn't take anything from those stories. The Ultramarines could not have been aware of the true nature of what they fought, and the Dragon having incomplete memories is consistent with the new codex lore.
> 
> There is no problem here.


We will have to see. I am actually quite interested in the new novel about the Mechanicum, and if it will have anything at all to do with the C'tan. Graham McNeill, seems to be the one championing the C'tan. Now that all his established lore, (PRIMARILY THE OLD CODEX) has no place in the 40k world anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the C'tan stories just end. 

You say, there is no problem because we can just say they are shards, but you forget that, that fluff was created with knowledge (and pretty much the same author Graham McNeill) with a purpose. Am waiting for Mr. McNeill's email. But I really doubt with much time and effort that Mr. McNeill put on the C'tan, that he meant for there to be a shard on Mars.


----------



## Serpion5

If you are referring to the novel Mechanicum, then the lore can be made to fit with no difficulty. 

Regardless of its original intent, nothing is lost in the transition. If it can suit Nightbringer, it can suit Mechanicum. I have read both, and both can be read knowing they are c'tan shards without losing any of the foreboding or danger they represent. 

There are necrons out there who will go to any length to hunt down the missing shards as soon as their presence is discovered. The danger they pose is undeniable, regardless of the technical aspect of whether or not it is a shard or a full c'tan. It worked then, it still works now. 


Make sure you post what Mr. McNeill replies to you.  I await with interest.


----------



## SoulGazer

Ya know... I'm starting to think there might be a bit of a barrier here between beings of each realm. Things having to do with the Warp include daemons and mortal souls. Things having to do with the materium include C'tan and the souless(Necrons first and foremost, dunno what else is sentient but souless.)

It seems to me that each side cannot really harm the other. They can affect each other, certainly, and each realm can wrestle with the other, but can one bring a true end to the other?

Couple of reasons why I thought of this:

1) The Emperor defeated a Shard of the Dragon(supposedly, but let's say for this situation it was a C'tan Shard for certain) but was unable to destroy it. The Emperor was, however, able to utterly obliterate Horus's soul from the warp, something that apparently not even the Chaos gods could fix. Or maybe they don't want to, I dunno for sure.

2)Khaine defeated the Nightbringer, but he did little more than shatter the Necrodermis, which is akin to a Space Marine with a bolter blowing apart a daemon's physical form. The bolter did not actually harm the daemon, just banished it back to the warp. The Necrons, however, were not only able to shatter the C'tan into shards using the power of the materium, but utterly obliterated Llandu'gor, The Flayer(This is in the profile for the Flayed Ones.) That C'tan is very dead now and can't be reformed. The Talismans of Vaul couldn't even shard a C'tan, only piss it off!

I think that the Warp can't actually be used to kill C'tan, just beat them down. Likewise, the Necrons are capable of killing C'tan, but have no means at all of really harming anything of the immaterium. They can block the Warp sometimes, and banish daemons with gauss weapons, but that's about it. 

Hell, I mean, I doubt a daemon can even affect a Necron other than by smashing it. Necrons have no souls to mess with, no crazy desires other than their own screwy program faults. The biotransference technology was, at least in part, a C'tan idea. Perhaps the sentience of a Necron can't be messed with by daemons because it's pure materium with no soul to tie it to the warp. Another interesting parallel is that Tomb Worlds with the Null Field Matrices would great planet-sized voids in the Warp much like a human blank would make(smaller, of course.) As the Eye is a huge Warp tear, perhaps the Tomb Worlds are much like materium tears in the Warp. A daemon can semi-exist inside a Null Field Matrix before it gets blown away by Necrons, just as a Necron can technically exist in the warp just before he gets devoured by daemons. I wonder if a Necron would malfunction in the warp like a daemon can 't exist for long in the materium?


That kinda went on longer than I thought... :wacko:


----------



## Deadeye776

Okay. Let's be honest with each other. The ony problem the Night bringer and Dragon had in those novels was being weakened from lack of sustenance. Your interjecting this shard crap that's not in it. Please quote somewhere in Mechanicum that said in it's memories that it's was shattered, or couldn't remember who it was? Nowhere. In fact it was causing the girl to not remember who she was so it could free her. How do I know this. As I type this I'm looking at Mechanicum and Nightbringer on my desk. Yeah that's right I'm reading them all as I debate this. In this old lore the only thing that has weakened the C'tan was the conflict they came into with each other. Look it up. Nowhere does it say or even leave the door open for the Necron rebellion. The Dragon remembers completely why it was so weak in it's fight with the Emperor and what it is entirely. 

It's trying to seduce the new Guardian by showing it what it could be serving if she played ball and let it out. The only Loss on the Dragon's record is against the Emperor and as previously stated being weak from fighting it's OWN kind i.e. other C'tan. Nowhere in it's complete memories does it say the help got brave and took a shot. Nothing is wrong with this things memories. I've read and re-read the portions and suggest you do too. Even the Nightbringer novel, there is nothing there to suggest they were ever defeated by Necrons.The Necrons present with the Nightbringer pretty much fit the old fluff. 


As stated I'm a huge fan of the Old C'tan. They were gods for those of you who don't think so. Look at there description. They were energy beings who had existed since the beginning of our universe predating the warp gods who were able to bend space and time to there will.They fed off of the energy of suns and stars ( I know the suns a star but it's a larger one) and then eventually the sweeter lifeforce of  sentient life. The were able to Imprint images of the fear of death in almost the entire universe population and could create machines of Godlike power. The only other beings that come close to his description are the Emperor and the Chaos Gods (albeit in their realm). The example used that you are a being of carbon and can be beaten by carbon has one problem. Nowhere in your example did you say you exist beyond the laws of the natural universe, did you? Nowhere in your universe did you say that you can control the forces of this universe and bend them to your will,did you? If you had I doubt that carbon matter would be that much of a threat if any too you. Look up the lore and make a better example.


----------



## Serpion5

DeadEye776 said:


> As stated I'm a huge fan of the Old C'tan.


Really this is the only problem isn't it? If you accept the fact that this lore is gone you will be happier. Or maybe not, but you will at least be one step closer to it. 

I am currently exchanging emails with Mr. Graham McNeill himself on this. Here's our exchange so far. 



Serpion5 said:


> Given the new 40k lore on C'tan shards, what is your opinion on tying them in to your novels Nightbringer and Mechanicum? I am of the impression that they can be explained as shards simply enough, but I am interested to know your thoughts on the matter? Thanks Mr. McNeill, I love your work and await your reply.





Graham McNeill said:


> Hey,
> 
> I've pretty much only just finished reading the necron codex, and while the models are pretty, that's about the only thing I like about it. I think the Nightbringer still works as a shard in the novel, but I'm sticking to my guns in that the Dragon was a full-on C'tan...one that escaped the destruction wrought among its kind in the necron fightback and which went to ground (only to come a cropper when it ran into the Emperor). I don't think a mere shard would have been able to kick start the Mechanicum, after all...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Graham


I have since asked a followup question requesting clarification on a few points. Namely the shard related lore on the Dragon placed in this month's White Dwarf. I will post this half of the exchange once I receive his reply.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

"I don't think a mere shard would have been able to kick start the Mechanicum, after all..."

He should have added 'kick start the Mechanicum or survive an encounter with the Emperor, after all..."

^_^


----------



## SoulGazer

Well that's just damn cool. That's a lot clearer than we usually get from GW or BL. Thanks Serpion, and thanks Mr. McNeil! :yahoo:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay. Let's be honest with each other. The ony problem the Night bringer and Dragon had in those novels was being weakened from lack of sustenance. Your interjecting this shard crap that's not in it. Please quote somewhere in Mechanicum that said in it's memories that it's was shattered, or couldn't remember who it was? Nowhere. In fact it was causing the girl to not remember who she was so it could free her. How do I know this. As I type this I'm looking at Mechanicum and Nightbringer on my desk. Yeah that's right I'm reading them all as I debate this. In this old lore the only thing that has weakened the C'tan was the conflict they came into with each other. Look it up. Nowhere does it say or even leave the door open for the Necron rebellion. The Dragon remembers completely why it was so weak in it's fight with the Emperor and what it is entirely.
> 
> It's trying to seduce the new Guardian by showing it what it could be serving if she played ball and let it out. The only Loss on the Dragon's record is against the Emperor and as previously stated being weak from fighting it's OWN kind i.e. other C'tan. Nowhere in it's complete memories does it say the help got brave and took a shot. Nothing is wrong with this things memories. I've read and re-read the portions and suggest you do too. Even the Nightbringer novel, there is nothing there to suggest they were ever defeated by Necrons.The Necrons present with the Nightbringer pretty much fit the old fluff.


Are you being serious? Obviously that is the case, *because the new shard-lore did not exist then!*

Read my last post clearly. The new lore can be imported into the novels _Mechanicum_ and _Nightbringer_ with a bit of artistic license.



Deadeye776 said:


> predating the warp gods


That statement is paradoxical.


----------



## gen.ahab

With all do respect to Mr. McNeil, I don't think it matters what he thinks on the subject. The necron codex clearly states that each C'tan was sundered into thousands of fragments. That wording doesn't leave much room for interpretation.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The shard lore fits into the established lore with a bit of artistic license, and thats the key here. Every single sentence relating to the C'tan in _Mechanicum_ or _Nightbringer_ may not make perfect sense in light of the new lore, but with a simple bit of artistic license the shard-lore can be imported into the plots without too much hassel. It is something that has to be accepted when new lore is introduced, and artistic license is the way to do that.



wow firstly you and serpion were saying it fits into old lore perfectly but now people have explained away how its doesnt you have had to move onto using artistic license for it to fit in. 

i know we arent getting anywhere with this debate but come on you two, you must deep down know how there is so many plot holes and reasons that the new lore on the ctan just doesnt fit properly into the whole of 40k lore that any positives get outweighed by all the negatives.

by all means if you like it personally thats fine but at least admit that its not been laid out perfectly and there is a few issues with it.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Unknown Primarch said:


> wow firstly you and serpion were saying it fits into old lore perfectly but now people have explained away how its doesnt you have had to move onto using artistic license for it to fit in.
> 
> i know we arent getting anywhere with this debate but come on you two, you must deep down know how there is so many plot holes and reasons that the new lore on the ctan just doesnt fit properly into the whole of 40k lore that any positives get outweighed by all the negatives.
> 
> by all means if you like it personally thats fine but at least admit that its not been laid out perfectly and there is a few issues with it.


It does fit in perfectly. But seeing as people are clinging to merely a few sentences from _Mechanicum_ not exactly harmonising with the new shard-lore, it seems appropriate to utilise a bit of artistic license. Either way, the new lore fits.


----------



## Deadeye776

Okay, so just pertainng to the Dragon, even Graham states that he's under the impression it was a full C'tan. So let's drop the Mechanicum issue unless the codex states that the Dragon is also a shard specifically. The effort of you guys to FORCE this new fluff on the other novels is incredible. So we've already have one book where the author has agreed it doesn't fit. Fine. As for the Shard of the Nightbringer. I'm not some c'tan zealot. I'll concede that there is a possibility that the Nightbringer in his namesake book can be a shard.Though the xenos or history in the book doesn't give anything to this I guess you can insert it into it. The instances we've seen of the Deciever I'm sorry but maybe not from power,but he's actually one of the ones this doesn't fit either. He's probably more than others a fully functioning C'tan manipulating and coaxing races into his plots. This doesn't seem like it fits into the shard lore with him. The reason it's good with the NIghtbringer is sadly there aren't really any displays of power from him or any insight into his mind. You really don't know if he's a complete and weak or shattered and weak. You can say it fits because you want it too. 

I was a fan of the old C'tan because I liked the ultimate evil they represented and the predatory nature they held to. Actually, the only race in 40k that's come up with a definitive way to beat the Chaos Gods were the C'tan. If they had been able to complete the plyons project they would have cut off the warp from real space. Who else has a plan like that. Humanity could still exist without the cabal's intended sacrifice and now it's every faction for itself. Pretty badass. That's out the window now. The Necrons who were once synonomous with silent and inevitable death.Now they are trading partners with the humans.I don't see why everyone likes this new disney fluff. We beat our big bad gods so now we can all be friends!!!!!!! What race that is at odds with humanity in a serious way trades? The tyranids? Traitors/Renegades? Dark Eldar? Chaos? Orks? So to sum this up a faction that was IMO the most serious threat to the Imperium on par with or actually trumping Chaos is now below the Orks in level of danger. Stopping trade is one of the first things you do when you move towards open war. Ridiculous.


----------



## gally912

I don't see how "The C'tan the Imperium advocates thought was a full C'tan was actually a fragment of the whole" is forcing the issue. If anything, it serves to make them more powerful.


----------



## ckcrawford

@ Serpion, he may have just answered your question. As I have not received his reply. 

Thats pretty much my only problem with the lore. Is that a secret kept by the Imperium, and pretty much a legacy of the Emperor, was that he was able to pretty much run the WHOLE Imperium on the most powerful C'tan. I think thats a fascinating idea, and one that I believe wouldn't have been created if it were simply a shard. 

I'm not sure if GW is trying to make a new model or some shit to make a Void Dragon or what not, but now we see, GW whacken off to new fluff while its authors make sensible fluff for its novels get out of whack. I'm telling you right now, I think it will be quite a disapointment, if we do not here much about the C'tan now, that GW has claimed them to be this, and while the people actually writing the lore on novels don't agree and just stop. 

Besides that, the only other problem is how unbelievable it still sounds that they were able to exterminate the C'tan (or so to speak) just eliminate them from being a threat... pretty much _all_ together. Even with the sacrifice of so many C'tan. I'm buying the fact the C'tan are weakened and that the Necron's may have had the powerful means to destroy them(which I'm sure was also very limited). But all together? Even closely and with few exceptions. It sounds really weak. As though the C'tan were rounded up and put into extermination camps.

If the C'tan were weakened, they would not have gone in a all out war against the necrons without regaining their strength.


----------



## Sothot

The C'tan didn't go to war with the Necrons though; they were betrayed at the conclusion of the war in heaven. It's not like there were millions of C'tan. They were a pantheon, which suggests a very finite and limited amount. Not all shards and pieces were accounted for, leaving an opening for future C'tan naughtiness. Honestly though, I can't see them being used as a major plot line anymore, and to that end, the Necrons as well. It seems to me like they put this book out to resolve all the galaxy ending threat represented by the Necrons and not have to update them for another 15 years. 
BL both is and isn't canon. This is generally accepted fact as it isn't written by GW exclusively. They are books written about the tabletop game and subject to change and retcon just as everything else. Aaaall I can suggest for you guys who can't get on board the shard train is not buy anymore books pertaining to Necrons and the C'tan.


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

19 pages of debate, that’s a lot :grin: wanted to read it all before I put in my thoughts on the matter, please note that I have been playing this hobby, reading the fluff for 20 years and I still do not count myself as an expert on the subject, what I say is just my opinion on what I have read and put together, and it’s how I like to see the 40k universe :grin:

My theory is as follows:

Khaine vs Nightbringer
This happened before Asuryan placed the great barrier between mortals and the gods deviding them for all eternity, in fact some stories go that when the Nightbringer was defeated he poisoned Khaine to believe that he would be destroyed by the Eldar Race, and it is because of this and Lileath (Isha’s daughter) dream that he tried to destroy the Eldar before the prophecy could come true, thus why Asuryan placed the great barrier,

The Shards
I like to think of them as the essence of the C’Tan that has been dispersed throughout the galaxy come to rest and gain power again until they reach the potential they had before (I know, no support just think it would be cool, that given time why could they not regain what they had lost) and that they were not in fact destroyed totally (like Khaine is not totally destroyed) 

Void Dragon
I like to think that the Void Dragon was not split into Shards but merely fractured, maybe pieces of his essence broke off into Shards explaining the new White Dwarf article, but the main body of the dragon in its weakened form fled to hide and regain its strength over time, this would explain the weakened state it was in when it fought against the Emperor, 

I have loads more ideas but thought this was enough for now, what do you guys think to my thoughts? Can be as brutal as you want as I always like to know what other people think as it expands my knowledge, and allows me to create new ideas :grin:

***NOTE That my thoughts on the void dragon where before the post above from seripon and the e-mail :grin: this can be seen in my post of thread: "The Necrons created humans (your thoughts?)" where I put some ideas about how Humans fit into the whole story* :grin:


----------



## Warlock in Training

Wow, all this over Shards lore. Seriously between GW raising prices on plastic, writing unbalance rules, still trying to make a buck on LotRs, and suing every fanmade site that uses their logo... is complete Fluff Retcon where we draw the line? Really? 

It fits to a degree, all you can do is write a angry letter to GW and never change anything anyway. I thought Necrons was a horrible race to add anyway to the game.


----------



## Deadeye776

I liked the idea of the C'tan. My thing is I don't like anyone holding the monopoly on power and in 40k for the longest time it was the Chaos Gods. While I do like some traitor legions (Nightlords) and chaos characters (Skulltaker) I thought it was a bit much. Even the tyranids which pose the greatest threat outside the warp are not immune to the taint of Chaos. The C'tan were the one faction that were beyond their touch and while neither could enter the others realm technically they both could eradicate the others. Now with the C'tan in shards the plyon tech and pariah gene storylines are going absolutely nowhere. I would hav liked to see the Chaos and the C'tan forces (ie Necrons) face off at full power against one another. Instead they've been downgraded and housebroken. The new fluff seems the latest step in making the coolest nightmare scifi universe look something like star wars. Next thing they'll form a treaty with Chaos where Angraath the Unbound will be the Ambassador.He'll have a seat on the High Lords table and lobby to legalize drugs.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Deadeye776 said:


> Angraath the Unbound will be the Ambassador.He'll have a seat on the High Lords table and lobby to legalize drugs.


I think Fulgrim more pro Drugs than Angraath.


----------



## Some Call Me... TIM

I don't know how I feel. I'm a bit surprised to be honest. Besides for the rules, many of the more "veteran" necron players in the store along with the other veterans aren't liking the new fiction. I feel it was rushed.


----------



## Serpion5

And with all due respect to Mr. McNeill (no reply yet on my follow up question) it ultimately isn't for him to say but I wanted his opinion regardless. He wrote that with the old lore in mind but if it must be viewed differently then so be it. 

And why would anyone think that artistic license in any way diminishes the validity? There is a whole segment of the hobby dedicated to doing exactly that, as well as several subforums of Heresy. 


As Graham sticks to his guns, I will stick to mine. And I will post his reply as soon as (if) I receive it.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It does fit in perfectly. But seeing as people are clinging to merely a few sentences from _Mechanicum_ not exactly harmonising with the new shard-lore, it seems appropriate to utilise a bit of artistic license. Either way, the new lore fits.



not really, when you have one ctan trapped in a dyson sphere because it was that much of a threat, you have one roaming the galaxy attending to his own plots and schemes, one trapped on mars by the emperor and one just woken from a millenia long sleep, making them a fraction of what they were just ruins what has already been built in the minds of the fans.

now if the necrons had started to take out the ctan during the war in heaven and the shards they used were just from the ones that we dont know are around in the 40k universe it would fit into 40k lore without any problems. 

if they needed something new for the necron codex, surely having the threat of rogue necrons with the power to destroy the other 4 that are left would be ideal seeing as the only other known thing to be able to do this is pretty much out of commision now (blackstone fortress).

so creating the shards with the 4 remaining ctan takes away from the story the need of the blackstone fortresses and makes the loss of eldrad totally pointless thus making the whole gothic war episode pointless.

where before we had a great sense of lost hope now chaos had pretty much destroyed the blackstones, who now cares if chaos corrupted the only weapon that could take out 4 gods of the materium as they arent needed now anyway.

but probably the most craziest thing is that if these shards have near unlimited power anyway whats been created is not the problem of having 4 ctan left in the galaxy but legions of them that can be called on at any time on any battle field which makes the necrons nigh on invincible even after the fact they were crazy powerful techwise anyway.

at least before there was a chance of winning against necrons if you had meltas and a few other tactical advantages. now any necron army could have a shard and its game over but in a totally unbalanced way. 

its like a marine running around the galaxy with the full power of the emperor, it doesnt sit right. then compare the fact people think the emperor is far weaker than any chaos god or ctan or even a shard as could be suggested, the way a necron lord could be roaming about with ctan power is just beyond belief!

some artist license is needed there aint there!


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Some Call Me... TIM said:


> I don't know how I feel. I'm a bit surprised to be honest. Besides for the rules, many of the more "veteran" necron players in the store along with the other veterans aren't liking the new fiction. I feel it was rushed.


think youve hit the nail on the head there mate. its does seem rushed and not thought out. like it been given to someone to write who has only a basic out line of old lore and they have tried to beef it up without thinking of the implications towards previous stories. lazy work or stupid deadlines i think or maybe both.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> And with all due respect to Mr. McNeill (no reply yet on my follow up question) it ultimately isn't for him to say but I wanted his opinion regardless. He wrote that with the old lore in mind but if it must be viewed differently then so be it.


Kinda ballsy to discredit someone who actually comes up with some of the WH lore you reference lol.


----------



## Deadeye776

As we enter the 21st page of this crap I'd like to say this. I understand that everyone feels that the lore can be fit into the old fluff. Thing is is that with a retcon, which is what this is, the old lore wasn't written with this crap in mind. When something is retconned, it negates something or someone from existing. The weakness of the C'tan came from being tricked or desiring more power and attacking each other. After the enslaver plauged dropped the food sources they were at their weakest and went into hibernation. The Outsider apparently had trouble playing well with others (was a dyed in the wool sociopath) and was trapped in a galactic dyson sphere outside the known universe. Like a cosmic time out. These beings were gods of the materium. They existed outside the laws of physics,time,and energy. The could bend reality to their will. The Void Dragon was capable of creating technology bordering on magic and weapons and warriors of terrifying power. The Nightbringer brought terror to all who came into his path and instilled the fear of death into the minds of almost all of the sentient races. He even in his loss to Khaine, he gained a victory in poisoning the eldar gods body. What's happened?

The new fluff is that they were defeated after the war in heaven by their own followers.Utilizing energy that nowhere in the fluff has anyone said they were susceptible to (ie it's bullshit, you could have at least said warp energy) they "shattered" the necrons. Funny thing is the Nightbringer was shattered by a God of War and still was able to come back from it. It seems that the thought and imagination put into this seems almost childish and like the writers didn't read any of the Necron/C'tan backstory.Everything we've been discussing isn't a secret. Your job is writing the codex?Why don't you look up what's been written about your subject and build off that? It would have been so easy to write a codex about the C'tan/Necron. They really haven't been featured in much (codex's,Mechanicum, Nightbringer and a few others) so the research wouldn't have needed to be extensive. I blame the writers for just pumping this shit out without giving a crap about what's already been written. The questions we have and gripes are all legit. It's not like they exposed something like in Thousand Sons or Legion that builds on what's already been written. They went off and negated the past because they didn't care about what's already been established. You look at guys like matt ward and the rest and they are remaking this universe to look like a marvel comics brand or DC maybe. The nightmare hopelessness is slowly going away. Soon we'll be hearing that in the Bright Future there will be peace after the Imperium smashes the Thirsting Gods.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Im still truing to understand how THIS retcon bothers people so much?! I mean GW Retcons ALL the time. Orks use to be Male and Female... now their Fungas Monsters that spread Spores. Squats were powerful enough to resist the Emperor and Crusade to gain independence, now their eaten by Same nids who were beaten by a mere 1000 UMs. Hrud use to be a Space Skaven race that was as powerful Faction as Dark Eldar, now there Swamp Monsters. Hell GK used to be curroptable but never turned yet, now you have Assholes strolling the Warp and carrying DWs like its no big deal.... WTF! Oh but Ctan Shards of uberness (like Avatars of Khain) is suddenly so bad of an Idea? What About the Necrons FTL travel? Oh wait they need Eldars Webway to get somewhere now LOL. Its a simple case of Retcon. Thy're no fun and suck but happen and will happen all the time.


----------



## Serpion5

Everything that has been attributed to a c'tan in previous lore is well within the capabilities of a shard. They are beings of near limitless power, once gods perhaps, but no less deadly for being broken in memory. 

A Deceiver shard is still easily capable of manipulating a sector wide war and engineering the rise of a great warmaster. It was his nature, so it is the nature of his constituents. It would not be a stretch to know that there are a few of them running loose. 

A Dragon shard is capable of influencing a civilization developing around it through subtle dreams and confinement. Further, were it a full c'tan with the power of the cosmos and full cognitive abilities at its disposal, I find it difficult to believe that even the Emperor would have been able to defeat it. This was one of the few gripes I had with Mechanicum, given the shard lore I no longer find it to be an issue (again, no disrespect intended to Graham McNeill).

A nightbringer shard is well and truly able to demolish an ultramarines task force and a dark eldar raiding force. I don't see how any can question Nightbringer's relevance. 

An outsider shard being imprisoned by the eldar within a Dyson sphere is also easy to explain: The eldar did not have access to a tesseract labyrinth, so imprisoned it by their own means. 


Look at that, I explained everything (yet again) through the simple application of logic and a bit of imagination rather than simply whining that my star gods have some imagined dubuff forced on them. It is not productive or worth my time to complain about something I cannot change, so I guess this will have to do.  

Since hardly anyone else is using their imaginations at the moment, are there any further questions? :angel:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> *I* find it difficult to believe that even the Emperor would have been able to defeat it.
> 
> This was one of the few gripes* I* had with Mechanicum.


The Emperor is singular. 

Every species has one or two trump cards at their disposal or several special deities unique only to them. 

Humanity has no deities on their side. Nothing special in their arsenal to help even the odds. 

Except one thing, the Emperor.

So I think you should put aside your bias and come to terms that an entire specie's *one* saving grace can and has bested a fully intact C'tan of which hundreds if not thousands existed.


----------



## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Emperor is singular.
> 
> Every species has one or two trump cards at their disposal or several special deities unique only to them.
> 
> Humanity has no deities on their side. Nothing special in their arsenal to help even the odds.
> 
> Except one thing, the Emperor.
> 
> So I think you should put aside your bias and come to terms that an entire specie's *one* saving grace can and has bested a fully intact C'tan of which hundreds if not thousands existed.


Sorry? How does being the most powerful "human" somehow equate to him being better than a fucking star god, shard or not? 

That isn't bias Malus, that's just looking at it realistically. He is a creature of flesh and blood, the c'tan are beings formed of the energy of the universe itself, and even the shards are of near limitless power. 

I can believe that he would be able to contain a shard if its mind was in some way diminished, I had more difficulty accepting that he could overcome a full C'tan. I once reconciled myself with the idea that it had been wounded by the Talismans of Vaul, but they may not be the case anymore, nor do I feel that it needs to be.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> Sorry? How does being the most powerful "human" somehow equate to him being better than a fucking star god, shard or not?


He is so much more than human. 



Serpion5 said:


> That isn't bias Malus, that's just looking at it realistically.


>.<



Serpion5 said:


> He is a creature of flesh and blood


And yet he is so much more than that.



Serpion5 said:


> The c'tan are beings formed of the energy of the universe itself, and even the shards are of near limitless power.


So is the Emperor a being of near limitless power.

Chaos daemons are also beings formed of the energy of the universe as well or a different universe if you believe the two are not inseparable.



Serpion5 said:


> I can believe that he would be able to contain a shard if its mind was in some way diminished, I had more difficulty accepting that he could overcome a full C'tan.
> 
> I once reconciled myself with the idea that it had been wounded by the Talismans of Vaul, but they may not be the case anymore, nor do I feel that it needs to be.





Serpion5 said:


> That isn't bias Malus, that's just looking at it realistically.


----------



## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> He is so much more than human.


Hence my "quotation marks" indicating the word in question was subject to opinion and debate. I am aware that he is more than a mere human. 



> >.<


Problem?



> And yet he is so much more than that.


I. Know.



> So is the Emperor a being of near limitless power.
> 
> Chaos daemons are also beings formed of the energy of the universe as well or a different universe if you believe the two are not inseparable.


The Emperor is very powerful yes, but you have to accept the fact that he is not on par with a god. 

C'tan have destroyed solar systems. C'tan have extinguished stars on a whim. One of them infused fear into all mortal races. Their power is limited only by what their minds can conjure up.

To my knowledge, I have not seen evidence that the Emperor was capable of such things. It is naive to think that even the Emperor could match those levels of power.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Serpion5 said:


> The Emperor is very powerful yes, but you have to accept the fact that he is not on par with a god.


The C'tan are merely star vampires, malevolent, sentient cosmic dust. They fed on dead/dying stars to sustain them, quite degrading for such powerful beings. You give them too much credit despite having never seen what they could actually do other than toss a few tanks around or enslave a race only to get enslaved themselves.



Serpion5 said:


> C'tan have destroyed solar systems.


Alone or with their slaves who did all the work?

Also plenty of species have done similar things. 



Serpion5 said:


> C'tan have extinguished stars on a whim.


So has the Imperium, quite easily I might add. 



Serpion5 said:


> One of them infused fear into all mortal races.


I recall bringing this up with coTe once and apparently the Nightbringer wasn't responsible or whatever.



Serpion5 said:


> Their power is limited only by what their minds can conjure up.


I don't know where you are getting all this from aside from that overused quote of them having 'near limitless' power.

And for beings that got enslaved by the very same race that were their slaves, them being limited by only their minds doesn't really strike true with me.



Serpion5 said:


> To my knowledge, I have not seen evidence that the Emperor was capable of such things.


It will take me a while to recover from this one lol.



Serpion5 said:


> It is naive to think that even the Emperor could match those levels of power.


And yet he has faced far greater powers than petty star vampires and actually survived and prevailed in one instance.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I recall bringing this up with coTe once and apparently the Nightbringer wasn't responsible or whatever.


I don't recall that?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Eons ago before you turned over to the dark side. 

Or maybe it was someone else.


----------



## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> The C'tan are merely star vampires, malevolent, sentient cosmic dust. They fed on dead/dying stars to sustain them, quite degrading for such powerful beings. You give them too much credit despite having never seen what they could actually do other than toss a few tanks around or enslave a race only to get enslaved themselves.


Cosmic dust? The War in Heaven lore describes some of their feats. Entire systems were extinguished by black holed brought into being by the c'tan's power. This was one example. 



> Alone or with their slaves who did all the work?
> 
> Also plenty of species have done similar things.


With the aid of technology, A FEW races have achieved the same. 



> So has the Imperium, quite easily I might add.


Do you have a source for this? 



> I recall bringing this up with coTe once and apparently the Nightbringer wasn't responsible or whatever.


Then you or he are mistaken. That doesn't sound like something he'd say. 



> I don't know where you are getting all this from aside from that overused quote of them having 'near limitless' power.
> 
> And for beings that got enslaved by the very same race that were their slaves, them being limited by only their minds doesn't really strike true with me.


The codex. Good read. You read it yet? 



> It will take me a while to recover from this one lol.


I assume you will recover sooner than the Emperor will. 



> And yet he has faced far greater powers than petty star vampires and actually survived and prevailed in one instance.


Such as... ?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Eons ago before you turned over to the dark side.
> 
> Or maybe it was someone else.


I think you may be referring to this:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well If im honest, *Personally* i've always been skeptical about that piece of history regarding the Nightbringer. I generally see it as more of a metaphor, but that is of course just me, and may not be what GW intended.
> 
> But if were taking it as literal, I don't see in anyway how it could make them more powerful than the Chaos Gods. The C'tan seem to be able to dabble in some form of genetics, given that they _planted_ the Pariah Gene I believe in the first place. But I highly doubt they would have been able to _seed_ fear in such a way.
> 
> Fear is natural in most, if not all sentient species. This is generally while im skeptical, because if the Nightbringer truly is responsible for fear, what about the Old Ones and whatever lesser races were around prior to that? The Necrontyr even, were they not capable of fear? Maybe the Nightbringer became a personification of that fear, the natural icon or resemblence of fear, but as for _creating_ fear itself, I highly doubt it. So in that regard I personally accept that the Nightbringer had the influence at the peak of his power to _effect_ most lesser races in the sense of maybe becoming the front for fear, but I don't accept that he _generated_ fear itself.


That still generally remains my view, but it isn't really relevant to this thread.

On a side note, I noticed in that thread _Deadeye_ that you didn't seem to be a fan of the lore _Mechanicum_ introduced in regards to the Void Dragon. Perhaps you just don't accept change very easily?


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> Everything that has been attributed to a c'tan in previous lore is well within the capabilities of a shard. They are beings of near limitless power, once gods perhaps, but no less deadly for being broken in memory.
> 
> That's bullshit and you know it. There are supposedly thousands of these shards around. Your telling me there are thousands of near limitless powerful beings roaming with that kind of power in 40K? It's moronic to believe that with so many beings of power the status quo of 40k hasn't changed in their favor yet. Stop with the imagination and use your common sense.
> 
> A Deceiver shard is still easily capable of manipulating a sector wide war and engineering the rise of a great warmaster. It was his nature, so it is the nature of his constituents. It would not be a stretch to know that there are a few of them running loose.
> 
> Obvious the displays of power of this creature really haven't been documented as I said before,not much material in the past. I can't say your right or wrong on this.
> 
> A Dragon shard is capable of influencing a civilization developing around it through subtle dreams and confinement. Further, were it a full c'tan with the power of the cosmos and full cognitive abilities at its disposal, I find it difficult to believe that even the Emperor would have been able to defeat it. This was one of the few gripes I had with Mechanicum, given the shard lore I no longer find it to be an issue (again, no disrespect intended to Graham McNeill).
> 
> YOUR saying a dragon shard is capable of it. An author who is employed for the organization said he doesn't see (obviously he has a better knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes) a shard being capable of surviving against the Emperor and starting the Mechanicum. You talk of imagination? Let's try this. In the new fluff you love, it says that at FULL POWER the C'tan couldn't defeat the the Warp powered Old Ones. At Full POWER. So, we go to Mechanicum. You think that a being that's been shattered and depowered that couldn't stand against a race of psykers would be able to whether an attack from the most powerful single psyker in the known universe? I think your problem Serpion is your imagination is running away with your common sense. How would a shard be able to survive what a full powered C'tan couldn't overcome?Maybe you should ake McNeil's advice because it is valid. If they couldn't defeat the Old Ones, and I'm guessing they attacked en masse, how could a single shard stand against the Emperor of Mankind? Only makes sense with the original fluff that he was and is still a full C'tan and was weakened from lack of food and faced the Emperor. No shard would be able to stand against a Godlike pysker when they couldn't stand against the Old Ones.
> 
> A nightbringer shard is well and truly able to demolish an ultramarines task force and a dark eldar raiding force. I don't see how any can question Nightbringer's relevance.
> 
> So again. This shard lore is getting ridiculous. So how many shards are there with unlimited power? Some are enslaved to the Necrons others are out there doing there own thing. Why would the Necrons need to trade for anything with this kind of power at their beck and call? Doesn't make sense. Like it's been said, with this kind of power how haven't these guys demolished the rest of 40k. Don't give me their fractured bullshit. Who else besides Chaos has something weaponized that can be described as "near limitless power" as these C'tan shards? Who's got tech that can stand against it? The Blackstone fortresses belong to Chaos. The Necrons have the tech to destroy and enslave creatures of the magnitude of Chaos Gods and what? Unity is there problem. Yeah, they said they suffered losses. With the description of these shards,if you had one, you could take over a planet or even a system. Who else has a weapon like that in 40k.There's imagination and stupidity and this leaks to the latter. I use to argue that something needed to change in the Imperium's favor because all of the forces arrayed against it, it didn't make sense it hadn't fallen yet. Now I'm saying with the power the C'tan now weild it doesn't make sense this isn't Necron vs Chaos. Didn't the silent king say he thinks if he can unite his people they can beat the Tyranids. WHO ELSE IN 40K CAN SAY THAT?
> 
> An outsider shard being imprisoned by the eldar within a Dyson sphere is also easy to explain: The eldar did not have access to a tesseract labyrinth, so imprisoned it by their own means.
> 
> Why would you imprison something that can be controlled and utilized within somethin as massive as a galactic dyson sphere? It's like imprisoning one psychopath on a planet by himself. It's not needed. Again, the threat posed by these shards seems to fluctuate and wane with the situation. Some say the shards are used by the C'tan and other say that the shards are roaming around doing.....whatever. If you've got a shard of something, why put it in a dyson sphere. There are thousand other shards out there, so are all of them in there or just one. Thousands of shards of limitless power. This just seems like a comic book storyline.
> 
> Look at that, I explained everything (yet again) through the simple application of logic and a bit of imagination rather than simply whining that my star gods have some imagined dubuff forced on them. It is not productive or worth my time to complain about something I cannot change, so I guess this will have to do.
> 
> Um, while your patting yourself on the back for basically nothing I'd like to ask you a question.Why would you complain about something you obviously like? You wouldn't which your not. Your happy about this retcon, and even when an author of BL said he didn't agree with you you "explained" down his opinion and continue with you vaunted imagination theories. This statement makes absoloutely no sense as "Do you want to change the new fluff?" No you don't,so why would you complain? Look at that, more holes in this that swiss cheese.
> 
> Since hardly anyone else is using their imaginations at the moment, are there any further questions? :angel:


 

Well maybe less imagination and more looking at facts and history. Before the C'tan were creatures where the living creatures of the universe to include the Old Ones were beneath their concerns and notice. The war of the Necrontyr against the Old Ones brought them into it as the Necrontyr discovered one of them eating their sun. Transported across a light bridge into living metal bodies,light years of creature condensed down into a immortal coil. At first delighting in feasting on the Necrontyr the Nec's convinced them that the warp powered Old Ones tasted even better. The old ones created warp sensitive races to combat this new alliance and the warp began to go into CHAOS by the bloodshed and intrigue. Inadvetantly you can say the original fluff was responsible for creating the warp turmoil that birthed the Chaos Gods. 

As a result the Enslaver Plague came out of the warp and fed off of the sentient warp races taken down the population of the universe. Bad news for the C'tan who's basic thirst for power had caused them to turn on one another (for whatever reason) and devour their kin. The Old Ones couldn't capitalize on this as they had succumebed to the Enslaver's. With their numbers down from canabilism and low food sources they had to go to ground for survival. The Necrons did so as well without their masters being active. That is the old fluff. It was awesome. From this now we have the shards where there are thousands of "near-limiltless" shards of the C'tan out there. 


Oh I also have a question for your imagination Serpion. Originally the Necrons went into hibernation as the C'tan did because they were their masters. So in the new fluff where the C'tan are defeated and shattered in shards of "near-limiless" power that the necrons could weild, why'd they go to sleep. Immortals who had just defeated Gods? Who existed in the universe at the time that could take them? They'd defeated the Old Ones, The enslaver plague had decimated the population of the galaxy, and they didn't have to worry about short lives anymore,why leave and give it to the eldar? They won the war in heaven and had united to destroy the C'tan, the eldar didn't have any tech that would be able to stop them at this point and they too as warp sensitive had suffered from the enslavers.Why go away? They were now unitied which in the fluff was the purpose of the War in Heaven (very stupid reason compared to the original) and pretty much had NO COMPETITION. With the power of the shards and their technology who existed in the universe to stop them? Makes no sense at all. Kind of like now, with their position and power of why they aren't unstoppable. I can imagine the table top game:

"Okay you've got one necron left and my Dark Angels army is going to wipe him out you....what the hell is that?"

"It's a shard,bro, y'know what that means. Unless you've got a live and kicking Emperor in that leman russ tank I win." Scene




ps Serpion. The Emperor is probably the furthest thing away from being a human as a human can get. If you read the books you'd know that. The is immortal, doesn't have a image, can utilize the warp as only really the Old Ones could do. He can possess his own followers and speak and move through them. His body is a shell that houses the might,but what the Emperor truly is I believe is anything but human.He's a warp power.


----------



## Deadeye776

COTE, which Thread are you referring to. There's 21 pages so your going to have be specific.


----------



## ckcrawford

holy shit. For some reason that sounds a lot better. Then plainly, the necrons were able to get powerful weapons and with that, the C'tan became necron bitches which we shall now call shards. By the. For those who are more into the lore, lets just say, many billions of necrons died during this. So it sounds more believable. 

MEGA CRAP! WTF!? What the hell is going GW. They obviously don't care about current lore. What's going to happen to other lore, unless the gaming community and BL totally seperate. For some reason, I really doubt ADB is going to write his new Grey Knghts book based entirely on the new codex. INFACT! I could see him deliberately going away from that shit. 

My fear, is that GW doesn't understand that there is some discontent about fluff being totally fucked around with and they continue to create this. The Grey Knights controversy abviously isn't enough for GW.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

ckcrawford said:


> My fear, is that GW doesn't understand that there is some discontent about fluff being totally fucked around with and they continue to create this. The Grey Knights controversy abviously isn't enough for GW.


The new Grey Knights stuff was a stretch, but as we've proven thoroughly, the shard fluff is not that radical and it's certainly not fucking with the fluff. Honestly, the Necrons managed to overthrow the C'Tan, but they couldn't destroy such powerful creatures completely. Big deal? Big surprise? Nope. They used the energies of the living universe to destroy creatures who were masters of the living universe. How could they have destroyed the Star Gods completely?

Really, 98% of the complaints stem from the fact that "shard" is inevitably a derogatory term, which is why GW shouldn't have used it. Doesn't matter how powerful the shard is, as long as people see that distinct word, they freak out.


----------



## Serpion5

> That's bullshit and you know it. There are supposedly thousands of these shards around. Your telling me there are thousands of near limitless powerful beings roaming with that kind of power in 40K? It's moronic to believe that with so many beings of power the status quo of 40k hasn't changed in their favor yet. Stop with the imagination and use your common sense.


Most of which lie in necron possession and are only brought forth in the direst of circumstance. Sounds fine to me. 



> YOUR saying a dragon shard is capable of it. An author who is employed for the organization said he doesn't see (obviously he has a better knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes) a shard being capable of surviving against the Emperor and starting the Mechanicum. You talk of imagination? Let's try this. In the new fluff you love, it says that at FULL POWER the C'tan couldn't defeat the the Warp powered Old Ones. At Full POWER. So, we go to Mechanicum. You think that a being that's been shattered and depowered that couldn't stand against a race of psykers would be able to whether an attack from the most powerful single psyker in the known universe? I think your problem Serpion is your imagination is running away with your common sense. How would a shard be able to survive what a full powered C'tan couldn't overcome?Maybe you should ake McNeil's advice because it is valid. If they couldn't defeat the Old Ones, and I'm guessing they attacked en masse, how could a single shard stand against the Emperor of Mankind? Only makes sense with the original fluff that he was and is still a full C'tan and was weakened from lack of food and faced the Emperor. No shard would be able to stand against a Godlike pysker when they couldn't stand against the Old Ones.


Two points here: 

1: As I said, Mr. McNeill's opinion is not canon, his books are but if the lore changes that is beyond his control. 

2: We only have the Deceiver's word that the c'tan couldn't beat the Old Ones, there is no official evidence that they even tried. The initial communications between the gods and the necrontyr are not detailed, so it is possible that the old lore regarding first contact still holds weight and I will admit that.  



> So again. This shard lore is getting ridiculous. So how many shards are there with unlimited power? Some are enslaved to the Necrons others are out there doing there own thing. Why would the Necrons need to trade for anything with this kind of power at their beck and call? Doesn't make sense. Like it's been said, with this kind of power how haven't these guys demolished the rest of 40k. Don't give me their fractured bullshit. Who else besides Chaos has something weaponized that can be described as "near limitless power" as these C'tan shards? Who's got tech that can stand against it? The Blackstone fortresses belong to Chaos. The Necrons have the tech to destroy and enslave creatures of the magnitude of Chaos Gods and what? Unity is there problem. Yeah, they said they suffered losses. With the description of these shards,if you had one, you could take over a planet or even a system. Who else has a weapon like that in 40k.There's imagination and stupidity and this leaks to the latter. I use to argue that something needed to change in the Imperium's favor because all of the forces arrayed against it, it didn't make sense it hadn't fallen yet. Now I'm saying with the power the C'tan now weild it doesn't make sense this isn't Necron vs Chaos. Didn't the silent king say he thinks if he can unite his people they can beat the Tyranids. WHO ELSE IN 40K CAN SAY THAT?


It is probably true that the balance of power needed to change. I have said so myself in other threads and I won't deny that now. 

On your other points, the c'tan shards still possess much of the personality and arrogance they bore as gods, and to unleash them poses a dire risk. Do you really think any necron would just bring forth such a creature on a whim? Does a Chaos Lord ask petty favours of a Bloodthirster? I think not. To the necrons, C'tan shards are the ultimate double edged sword. Yes they can bring victory, but if control is lost, the necron lord in question is essentially screwed. That is why they do not throw them around on a whim, and I came to this conclusion by simply reading their entry in the codex. 



> Why would you imprison something that can be controlled and utilized within somethin as massive as a galactic dyson sphere? It's like imprisoning one psychopath on a planet by himself. It's not needed. Again, the threat posed by these shards seems to fluctuate and wane with the situation. Some say the shards are used by the C'tan and other say that the shards are roaming around doing.....whatever. If you've got a shard of something, why put it in a dyson sphere. There are thousand other shards out there, so are all of them in there or just one. Thousands of shards of limitless power. This just seems like a comic book storyline.


Not needed? How are you aware of what the eldar were capable of at the time? The necrons perhaps captured most of the Outsider shards and left one or two unaccounted for. The eldar, being far less advanced at the time and depleted by war, did what they could at the time. If that took the form of a giant sphere, then so be it. 



> Um, while your patting yourself on the back for basically nothing I'd like to ask you a question.Why would you complain about something you obviously like? You wouldn't which your not. Your happy about this retcon, and even when an author of BL said he didn't agree with you you "explained" down his opinion and continue with you vaunted imagination theories. This statement makes absoloutely no sense as "Do you want to change the new fluff?" No you don't,so why would you complain? Look at that, more holes in this that swiss cheese.


I`m not sure what you're saying. And if contacting a BL author and using logic to fill dozens of imagined plot holes amounts to nothing, tell me; What has your complaining accomplished? 



> Well maybe less imagination and more looking at facts and history. Before the C'tan were creatures where the living creatures of the universe to include the Old Ones were beneath their concerns and notice. The war of the Necrontyr against the Old Ones brought them into it as the Necrontyr discovered one of them eating their sun. Transported across a light bridge into living metal bodies,light years of creature condensed down into a immortal coil. At first delighting in feasting on the Necrontyr the Nec's convinced them that the warp powered Old Ones tasted even better. The old ones created warp sensitive races to combat this new alliance and the warp began to go into CHAOS by the bloodshed and intrigue. Inadvetantly you can say the original fluff was responsible for creating the warp turmoil that birthed the Chaos Gods.


There is nothing in the new lore to discredit this. As I said, details are very scarce, only the gist of these events is conveyed. 



> As a result the Enslaver Plague came out of the warp and fed off of the sentient warp races taken down the population of the universe. Bad news for the C'tan who's basic thirst for power had caused them to turn on one another (for whatever reason) and devour their kin. The Old Ones couldn't capitalize on this as they had succumebed to the Enslaver's. With their numbers down from canabilism and low food sources they had to go to ground for survival. The Necrons did so as well without their masters being active. That is the old fluff. It was awesome. From this now we have the shards where there are thousands of "near-limiltless" shards of the C'tan out there.


You're actually mistaken here. The c'tan were not forced to go to ground. They chose to simply because there was no food source worth harvesting. With the Old Ones all but destroyed, that was it. The enslavers were never a direct threat. 



> Oh I also have a question for your imagination Serpion. Originally the Necrons went into hibernation as the C'tan did because they were their masters. So in the new fluff where the C'tan are defeated and shattered in shards of "near-limiless" power that the necrons could weild, why'd they go to sleep. Immortals who had just defeated Gods? Who existed in the universe at the time that could take them? They'd defeated the Old Ones, The enslaver plague had decimated the population of the galaxy, and they didn't have to worry about short lives anymore,why leave and give it to the eldar? They won the war in heaven and had united to destroy the C'tan, the eldar didn't have any tech that would be able to stop them at this point and they too as warp sensitive had suffered from the enslavers.Why go away? They were now unitied which in the fluff was the purpose of the War in Heaven (very stupid reason compared to the original) and pretty much had NO COMPETITION. With the power of the shards and their technology who existed in the universe to stop them? Makes no sense at all. Kind of like now, with their position and power of why they aren't unstoppable. I can imagine the table top game:
> 
> "Okay you've got one necron left and my Dark Angels army is going to wipe him out you....what the hell is that?"
> 
> "It's a shard,bro, y'know what that means. Unless you've got a live and kicking Emperor in that leman russ tank I win." Scene


Actually, no. The eldar are describes as having survived the fall of the Old Ones with sufficient strength to threaten the necrons, who had just lost trillions of their number in rebelling against the c'tan. The hibernation was meant to hide them until the eldar had died out. The Silent King allotted sixty million years for the sleep, believing that the eldar vivilisation would have died out by that point. Evidently he was wrong.


Are you even trying anymore?




> ps Serpion. The Emperor is probably the furthest thing away from being a human as a human can get. If you read the books you'd know that. The is immortal, doesn't have a image, can utilize the warp as only really the Old Ones could do. He can possess his own followers and speak and move through them. His body is a shell that houses the might,but what the Emperor truly is I believe is anything but human.He's a warp power.


He has a flesh and blood form, this has been glimpsed beneath the glamour on several occasions, most recently in Deliverance Lost by Corax. 

I never denied he was a powerful psyker. And why do you compare him to the Old Ones, the only race in the universe that we have near zero concrete information on?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> That's bullshit and you know it. There are supposedly thousands of these shards around. Your telling me there are thousands of near limitless powerful beings roaming with that kind of power in 40K? It's moronic to believe that with so many beings of power the status quo of 40k hasn't changed in their favor yet. Stop with the imagination and use your common sense.


You may think it's bullshit, but it's not _Serpion_'s opinion. It is the lore from the new codex.



Deadeye776 said:


> Didn't the silent king say he thinks if he can unite his people they can beat the Tyranids. WHO ELSE IN 40K CAN SAY THAT?


The Greenskins perhaps?



Deadeye776 said:


> So in the new fluff where the C'tan are defeated and shattered in shards of "near-limiless" power that the necrons could weild, why'd they go to sleep. Immortals who had just defeated Gods? Who existed in the universe at the time that could take them? They'd defeated the Old Ones, The enslaver plague had decimated the population of the galaxy, and they didn't have to worry about short lives anymore,why leave and give it to the eldar? They won the war in heaven and had united to destroy the C'tan, the eldar didn't have any tech that would be able to stop them at this point and they too as warp sensitive had suffered from the enslavers.Why go away?


The codex explains why. Because the Necrons were so spent and weakened from their rebellion against the C'tan that they could not have hoped to challenge the rising Eldar. Simple.



Deadeye776 said:


> COTE, which Thread are you referring to. There's 21 pages so your going to have be specific.


Sorry, I meant the thread I quoted myself from. This one. With this being your post I was referring to.



ckcrawford said:


> For some reason, I really doubt ADB is going to write his new Grey Knghts book based entirely on the new codex. INFACT! I could see him deliberately going away from that shit.


Aaron has already come out and said that he has had to change a lot of _The Emperor's Gift_ in order to fit in with the new lore:



AD-B said:


> The practical difficulty was simply that the Grey Knight codex dropped while The Emperor’s Gift was already underway, and the changes in the lore meant that a lot of what I’d written was suddenly invalidated. Some bits needed rewriting, some bits needed scrapping. That’s contributed pretty massively to me missing this deadline, actually – which is weird, as for once the reason isn’t just me fucking around and writing slowly.
> 
> The creative difficulty is a pretty easy answer, too. It comes down to the fact that every single one of the Grey Knights is psychic. You already have the fact none of the Adeptus Astartes interact with humans (or with each other) in “normal” ways. Now you have their absolute bleeding edge elite warriors – the very limits of what you can do to a human body – and have to deal with the fact they’re also psychic.





AD-B said:


> Uh.
> 
> It affected my work “a lot”, in that I had to trash a lot of it. That hurt, but it comes with the territory. I wasn’t even annoyed, just pretty demoralised for a while. It also meant that instead of writing a duology, I decided to do just the one novel, and move on to another project. Some of the rewrites happened because of me making it one story instead of two, but most came about because a lot of the lore simply changed underfoot. You shouldn’t take that as me ragging on the new design philosophy for the Grey Knights, as it’s nothing so blunt and simple. *Stuff changes all the time – you can’t be a baby about it, it’s just the nature of the beast when it comes to working within an established IP.
> *
> As to the “unbeatable” thing, I don’t think it makes them ridiculous, but I can’t speak objectively, really. I can say that (on a personal level) their new incorruptibility diminishes a lot of what I liked about them. It changes a lot of what I found noble about them into something else. There’s a world of difference between “No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos because of their constant effort and absolute purity” and “Grey Knights simply can’t fall to Chaos because of what they are, so they’re free to use the weapons of the enemy if they wish.” I’m not saying one is better than the other. Both are interesting takes on the elite order. They’re just very different in theme, atmosphere and characterisation.


In fact, even the title (_The Emperor's Gift_) comes from the new lore:


AD-B said:


> It’s a nod to a line in the Grey Knight codex. “A Grey Knight’s psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a Daemon’s dark appetites and thus entirely immune to corruption. Such was the Emperor’s gift to the first Grey Knights; a legacy renewed in each new generation of Battle-Brothers.”


----------



## ckcrawford

It sure will be interesting to see how close ADB's new novel will be to the fluff in the codex. I see ADB as pretty "headstrong" in terms of his personality. If he thinks something is bullshit, even if he doesn't/can't admit it, he wont cave into it. 

At least, that how I've seen him react to some of the controversial fluff. Though there are many examples, one off the top of my head would be _Lord of Night_ and how he doesn't like the concept of one thing being able to unite a whole legion.

But who knows, he hasn't written too much for BL yet, so it wouldn't be a surprise to me that he caved into it. (Probably had a discussion with GW about it). He even admits that he's done with the Grey Knights and off to new projects. Think about that for a second. I think we will all be looking at how well he wrote the novel with the rest of his works. I'm sure that much of it was a dissapointment, potential fluff from a good author being destroyed, because GW wants a person who can't control his imagination to write new codex's and to some extent control major pieces of lore.

That brings me up to Graham McNeill. Any other lore being told about the C'tan, with Graham McNeill kind of being their chief creator will be delayed or just completely left untold. 

And as far as ADB. I don't think he gives himself enough credit. I guarantee it was hard to adjust his fluff to a bullshit codex... its even sad if you think that in a couple years its going to change.... again. ADB's untainted fluff is great. The hype of the novel is growing dimmer. I mean I hope the novel is good. I'm sure it will be. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a difference compared to other novels. 

It upsets me in a way. I think GW has to see that its fans are more appreciative of its authors who actually go the distance to create lore. I'm looking at Ward's two pages of what is suppose to be the new... and pretty much only canon history of the c'tan. THATS IT FELLOWS! Thats it! But this is canon. Do I want Matt Ward writing the new Chaos Codex... I think not. But there seems to not be anything stopping GW from being completely redicolous.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

The C'tan changes were necessary if they wanted to re-popularize the Necrons.

They were almost identical to the Chaos powers in every aspect.

I used to be against the changes but after several thought provoking showers, I changed.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

@cote. so what your saying about adb's gk's is he had a perception of what the grey knights were all about then someone went and fucked about with a new codex and brought in stuff that changed the angle at which people looked at grey knights and a author then had to rewrite alot of his novel to even make sense of the stuff he wanted to put in that book.

yet something pretty similar has happened with ctan fluff and you think it fits into old lore without any problems. it just shows you just want to force your point across and overlook what others are saying are the problems with the new lore.

the fact a author has had to totally rewrite his work because someone has changed the lore shows that what is being put out in the codex's is total retcons and not expansions of what is already out there.

im now wondering if there is any authors out there that have had to do the same with their necron work because of these new changes like adb had to. 


on a similar note im wondering if maybe gw are trying to slowly make alterations so they can move away from the darkness of the far future so as to make it more hollywood friendly. maybe its the only next big step left gw has to take to make cash out of their ip before it goes under. how long are people willing to play table top or even follow the ip when it gets so drastically altered to resemble something totally different than what it was. its might sound abit harsh but not impossible, hell for me alone this thread alone has created abit of dislike about 40k just for all the meddling that is happening with the lore and that thing can spread..... just saying


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I don't see how they're even close to trying to hollywoodize the WH40k franchise. 

As I've said, the C'tan were too similar to the Chaos powers, they couldn't touch the Chaos lore because of how intricate it is so they naturally altered the C'tan's almost non-existent fluff.


----------



## Sothot

It's their fucking property, and it's theirs to retcon and change as they please. If changing the story of two models puts you off 40k then you needed another damn hobby anyways. The old lore is still there for you to reread and enjoy. It's like when a sequel you don't appreciate "ruins the original" for you. No. It.s still there, the same as it was. 

But no, blah blah blah butthurt butthurt butthurt.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

A passionate fan is better than an indifferent one.

PS. moar comix


----------



## Sothot

That is very true. You got me there.
I wish I had more time to draw... Between work, raising my two year old son, drawing my own comic, and assembling necrons, my homebrew gets left out for sure... But I do intend to go back to it. There was a story I wanted to tell there


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> It sure will be interesting to see how close ADB's new novel will be to the fluff in the codex. I see ADB as pretty "headstrong" in terms of his personality. If he thinks something is bullshit, even if he doesn't/can't admit it, he wont cave into it.
> 
> At least, that how I've seen him react to some of the controversial fluff. Though there are many examples, one off the top of my head would be _Lord of Night_ and how he doesn't like the concept of one thing being able to unite a whole legion.


As far as im aware Aaron loved _Lord of the Night_. It wasn't simply that he thought the lore of _Lord of the Night_ was wrong or controversial at all. _LotN_ was from Zso Sahaal's perspective, this is a Legion captain who had been absent from the Legion (even galaxy) for ten millennia. Sahaal was deluded to think that he could simply return, recover the _Corona Nox_ and thereby earn the allegience of the VIII Legion - but that was his viewpoint as portrayed in _LotN_. Aaron did not refute any lore from _LotN_ with his Night Lords series at all.

This is what he's said before anyway, i'm not telling him what he does or doesn't like. 

In the quotes I posted in my last post, Aaron stated that he had to change elements of _The Emperor's Gift_ due to the introduction of the new _Codex: Grey Knights_. Aaron has respect for the lore, and if he could help it wouldn't refute any (à la _Codex: Grey Knights_). 



ckcrawford said:


> I'm sure that much of it was a dissapointment, potential fluff from a good author being destroyed...


That's very pessimistic. It should probably be better viewed as potential lore from a good author being reworked to realign with the re-worked Grey Knights lore.



ckcrawford said:


> And as far as ADB. I don't think he gives himself enough credit. I guarantee it was hard to adjust his fluff to a bullshit codex... its even sad if you think that in a couple years its going to change.... again. ADB's untainted fluff is great. The hype of the novel is growing dimmer. I mean I hope the novel is good. I'm sure it will be. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a difference compared to other novels.


The only issue I have with the new Grey Knights lore is the fact that due to the _Emperor's Gift_ they are now wholly incorruptable rather than potentially corruptable but without the precedent of a single Grey Knight having ever fallen to Chaos. Aaron makes note of that change as well in my previous post, although he makes it quite clear that he doesn't think it is necessarily worse, just different.

The Draigo lore is acceptable in my mind (link).



Unknown Primarch said:


> @cote. so what your saying about adb's gk's is he had a perception of what the grey knights were all about then someone went and fucked about with a new codex and brought in stuff that changed the angle at which people looked at grey knights and a author then had to rewrite alot of his novel to even make sense of the stuff he wanted to put in that book.


Pretty much. Aaron said that elements of his novel had to be reworked in order to align with the new codex.



Unknown Primarch said:


> yet something pretty similar has happened with ctan fluff and you think it fits into old lore without any problems. it just shows you just want to force your point across and overlook what others are saying are the problems with the new lore.


There is a major difference between the new Grey Knight lore and the new C'tan lore. Aaron was writing a novel which will no doubt delve into the perspective of the Grey Knights from their own view point - bits of which had to be changed due to the new lore. The new C'tan lore however can easily fit into the existing BL lore with a bit of artistic license - mainly because they have hardly been involved in any. It's not like Aaron is writing about the C'tan's perspective or from their viewpoint, thereby there is no problem and there isn't really a comparison to make in this regard.



Unknown Primarch said:


> the fact a author has had to totally rewrite his work because someone has changed the lore shows that what is being put out in the codex's is total retcons and not expansions of what is already out there.


So whats your point? 



Unknown Primarch said:


> im now wondering if there is any authors out there that have had to do the same with their necron work because of these new changes like adb had to.


I would confidently say no. All the Necron involvement in published BL works thus far with the new lore, so again there is no issue.



Unknown Primarch said:


> on a similar note im wondering if maybe gw are trying to slowly make alterations so they can move away from the darkness of the far future so as to make it more hollywood friendly.


How have any of the alterations of fifth edition made 40k more _"hollywood friendly"_? If anything, fifth edition has made the setting much more grimdark - what with elaborating upon the _Time of Ending_.



Unknown Primarch said:


> how long are people willing to play table top or even follow the ip when it gets so drastically altered to resemble something totally different than what it was.


How has the introduction of incorruptable Grey Knights, Draigo and the C'tan shards drastically changed the entire 40k setting? To claim so is ludicrous.

Look, 40k changes. It always has done. New lore is introduced, or old lore is reworked occasionally. It _has_ to happen. As AD-B has said: _"Stuff changes all the time – you can’t be a baby about it, it’s just the nature of the beast when it comes to working within an established IP."_


----------



## SoulGazer

Bah, can't vote in the poll, need a third option:

"Meh, it's not what I signed up for, but I'll get over it."


----------



## Deadeye776

Eventually we all will until we find out that no only the have the Taudefeated but domesticated and control the entire tyranid swarm through mastering the ability to harness and direct the Hive mind. You've got fire warriors riding carnifex's into combat. Before it seemed bleak and horror filled when you looked at 40k. I believe that subtley it's changing into something else. I use to look at the necrons and think it was a window into seeing what would happen if humanity ever completely lost ot chaos, actually it would be a lot worse than being a robot with green eyes but you get the picture. However now you have the fluff being written with hope and understanding between xenos and humans which would negate part of the opening paragraph. What the hell happened to no one getting along? I know if you pick up any 40k novel tha's one of the things is that they will never unite to fight chaos and the tyranids like they do in fantasy. The Eldar and xenos solution for the ultimate victory against Chaos is to sacrifice humanity. Now we see trade has been opened with the xenos. Who knows, next black crusade maybe they let us use a shard or two.


----------



## Sothot

I sure hope so. After humanity realizes they and Orks can be super best friends like Necrons and Blood Angels, maybe they can all sit around a campfire listening to Eldar tell stories about their heyday while Necrons argue about what it was really like in the time before those young whippersnappers grew up. Aw, Papa Nurgle's getting drunk and handsy!
Man, the far future is awesome!


----------



## Deadeye776

In the far future there is only camping and family bbq's with the laughing of thirsting friends getting together for an intergalactic kegger.


----------



## mob16151

Deadeye776 said:


> In the far future there is only camping and family bbq's with the laughing of thirsting friends getting together for an intergalactic kegger.


And creepy Nuncle Trazyn.


----------



## Serpion5

In the bleak fandom of 40k, there is only pessimism. 











Until we look at the results of the poll it seems.


----------



## saltonno1

um lets all just take a chill pill and calm the fuck down remember non of this stuff is real. if you guys wnt to complain about it then do a game and see who has the last laugh


----------



## Serpion5

saltonno1 said:


> um lets all just take a chill pill and calm the fuck down remember non of this stuff is real. if you guys wnt to complain about it then do a game and see who has the last laugh


1: Welcome to Heresy. :victory:

2: Nobody claimed it was real. :dunno: 

3: Deadeye doesn't game, CotE doesn't game, and I'd rather paint the models than roll dice.  

4: This is the fluff section anyway, so gaming is irrelevant. :scratchhead: 

5: I've had the last laugh. Didn't you see the ponies? I'm pretty sure everyone has moved on at long fucking last. :biggrin:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

saltonno1 said:


> um lets all just take a chill pill and calm the fuck down remember non of this stuff is real. if you guys wnt to complain about it then do a game and see who has the last laugh


----------



## SonOfStan

Honestly, I think the old Necrons were a bit on the boring side. The new fluff turns them into actual characters, rather then just mindless automatons. I'm not a massive fan of the C'tan fluff, but I'll get over it.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

SoulGazer said:


> Bah, can't vote in the poll, need a third option:
> 
> "Meh, it's not what I signed up for, but I'll get over it."


40k only has two gears: Reverse and Drive. *There is no Neutral!!!!!*

Just kidding. The poll is pretty divisive, but meh .


----------



## SoulGazer

Davidicus 40k said:


> 40k only has two gears: Reverse and Drive. *There is no Neutral!!!!!*
> 
> Just kidding. The poll is pretty divisive, but meh .


Hah, you do have a point there. Moderates have no place in the grim darkness of the far future; you're either a heretic or a saint. :drinks:


----------



## Deadeye776

This debate wasn't about winning or losing. It was bringing to light the change in the story of the Necrons and it's effect on the greater 40k universe. The real debate was does it fit nicely or throw off the vibe of the setting. These obviously aren't the same stone cold killer cyborgs from earlier as they have been more humanized by the new fluff. The horror they represented has been shattered into shards so their gods no longer really exist as the Deus ex Machina factor which in truth in the new story they aren't. Originally the C'tan were the ones that gave the Necrontyr the tech to do what they had done along with their power. In this it was an alliance that the Silent King saw turning into slavery so they reneged before it was too late. You can't call it a rebellion as in this new fluff the Necrons were never "working" for but with the C'tan to defeat the Old Ones as apparently no one could. 

Originally the reason the c'tan went to ground was because of the enslaver plague which was caused by the new psyker races warring and making the entities within the warp go predatory which actually is what created the realm of Chaos and ultimately the Chaos Gods themselves.The Old Ones had in effect created the gods by creating these races who had so much presence in the warp. That was the original story. Who knows what the hell the deal is now. The Nightbringer is in shards. Funny that when he was put into shards before, he just went into another body seeing as how he's NOT A PHYSICAL BEING LIKE THE REST OF THE C'TAN he's an energy creature. That's just one thing that doesn't make sense about this new fluff. The Void Dragon's story (his story mind you of his time on earth) in Mechanicus is now being attributed by you guys to be a shard. In the description of the Dragon it says it was incredibly weakened when it faced the Emperor. However all of you on here hae said the shards are beings of near limitless power. Again a contrast in terms. I'm not making this up, go read Mechanicus again. Even Graham doesn't think it was a shard,but you've already discredited his opinion because it doesn't agree with your bullshit explanation. This is resloved by only one thing, you either like the old story or the new reworked story (as the poll shows).Don't bullshit new fans into thinking that they are the same thing because it's not.These books were written with the old fluff in mind. That's why the Nightbringer awoke in Nightbringer the novel with Necron attendants,because he was still their God. Ovcourse you can spin it the other way but it was written for the orignal fluff. All we were saying is that if your going to make books and the game it's not hard to make them flow together. Other franchises do it like Star Wars with it's books and movies they mostly go togther. I don't want to buy books that in a month or so will be proven obsolete and non canon.


----------



## Serpion5

Deadeye776 said:


> This debate wasn't about winning or losing. It was bringing to light the change in the story of the Necrons and it's effect on the greater 40k universe. The real debate was does it fit nicely or throw off the vibe of the setting. These obviously aren't the same stone cold killer cyborgs from earlier as they have been more humanized by the new fluff. The horror they represented has been shattered into shards so their gods no longer really exist as the Deus ex Machina factor which in truth in the new story they aren't. Originally the C'tan were the ones that gave the Necrontyr the tech to do what they had done along with their power. In this it was an alliance that the Silent King saw turning into slavery so they reneged before it was too late. You can't call it a rebellion as in this new fluff the Necrons were never "working" for but with the C'tan to defeat the Old Ones as apparently no one could.
> 
> Originally the reason the c'tan went to ground was because of the enslaver plague which was caused by the new psyker races warring and making the entities within the warp go predatory which actually is what created the realm of Chaos and ultimately the Chaos Gods themselves.The Old Ones had in effect created the gods by creating these races who had so much presence in the warp. That was the original story. Who knows what the hell the deal is now. The Nightbringer is in shards. Funny that when he was put into shards before, he just went into another body seeing as how he's NOT A PHYSICAL BEING LIKE THE REST OF THE C'TAN he's an energy creature. That's just one thing that doesn't make sense about this new fluff. The Void Dragon's story (his story mind you of his time on earth) in Mechanicus is now being attributed by you guys to be a shard. In the description of the Dragon it says it was incredibly weakened when it faced the Emperor. However all of you on here hae said the shards are beings of near limitless power. Again a contrast in terms. I'm not making this up, go read Mechanicus again. Even Graham doesn't think it was a shard,but you've already discredited his opinion because it doesn't agree with your bullshit explanation. This is resloved by only one thing, you either like the old story or the new reworked story (as the poll shows).Don't bullshit new fans into thinking that they are the same thing because it's not.These books were written with the old fluff in mind. That's why the Nightbringer awoke in Nightbringer the novel with Necron attendants,because he was still their God. Ovcourse you can spin it the other way but it was written for the orignal fluff. All we were saying is that if your going to make books and the game it's not hard to make them flow together. Other franchises do it like Star Wars with it's books and movies they mostly go togther. I don't want to buy books that in a month or so will be proven obsolete and non canon.


You've brought these points up time and time again, and I've offered numerous times an explanation for them. 

Here's the thing. You liked the older fluff better. Because of that, you are stubbornly refusing to see any credibility with the new fluff. It's not that you can't find a way to tie the fluff in, it seems apparent now that you simply don't want it to make sense. 

But it does. In spite of your narrow view, it does.


----------



## Deadeye776

No, Serpion it doesn't. The C'tan from the original fluff are not the C'tan in the new fluff.Two completely different beings. Yeah I liked the original.


----------



## Serpion5

Kudos for the best debate I've had in a long time Deadeye. 

You made it interesting. Didn't convince me, but rep for your persistence at the very least. :grin:


----------



## Deadeye776

I just realized this thing is 24 pages..... I must agree this has got to be the longest debate I've ever been involved in. But I will give you one thing, it has been a good one.


----------



## Bringer of the Tide

*Adding my 10 cents in*

Okay, I really like 40k tabletop and fluff wise, and i've been reading up on the necron fluff ever since I started playing these guys which has been for the past 7 years. So I'd like to think that I know somewhat what I'm talking about. Again however this is all just my personal opinion, we can agree to disagree all day. I will however thoroughly defend my opinion if someone is opposed to it. 

About this whole shard thing, gods fighting gods and emperor's, who beat who or kicked whose ass.

Nightbringer vs Khaine: Khaine was using the special swords given to him by F-ing Vaul to help him battle and defeat the near invincible armies of the C'tan & Necrons, because back then they all had the warriors of the Void Dragon with their lightning fields but no guass weaponry. Though due to the unrelenting tide of the Necrons and the one sword with the flaw khaine's warriors started to fall, eventually it came down to a duel between the Nightbringer and Khaine. (I believe it was the Nightbringer at full power, but that's up to speculation) In this duel the Nightbringer was thoroughly kicking the war gods ass. Even said to be toying with him because of his ability to phase in and out, and was picking his shots, wearing khaine down till the Nightbringer would either be tired of toying with him or just wanted to end it, but thanks to the ever interferring laughing god/Deceiver (also very debatable) who mentioned to khaine that the Nightbringer is vulnerable when he phases back into reality to strike, all of a sudden remembered it when he was about to be dealt defeat and when the Nightbringer materialized to deliver the final blow struck! This blow shattered his necrodermis and as a result forever tainted khaine. Also out of the Nightbringers anger of being denied what probably would've been one of his most greatest accomplishments forever imprinted the fear of death on every single race! Except the orcs, cause they are some crazy ass motha'fucka's!
So everyone who has been saying khaine whooped the Nightbringers ass, you were very mistaken.
(And if that happened to just be a shard, then the god-emperor have mercy upon your souls and pray for salvation cause it that was a shard we are all thoroughly fucked if some still faithful crons decide to unite the shards.)

Void Dragon vs Emperor/Vaul/blackstone fortresses: have any of you ever read the description of the Void Dragon? this guy is said to be the most powerful of all the C'tan and have the greatest affinity over the material realm. Let me play out to you how this went down. The Dragon was in space doing whatever the fuck a god of his power does, when Vaul takes to of the blackstone fortresses and uses them at full power and fires up the Dragon. Obviously this is going to have some effect, this would injure any entity/deity ever created if not obliterating many from existence! Then after Vaul took an army and attacked the Dragon, this attack resulted in utter failure btw which Vaul was never heard from again.(originally) i've also read that Vaul's attack just failed and later khaine got revenge on him for jewing him over about the whole sword thing. Either way Dragon still kicked ass by taking a massive attack from two blackstone fortresses and then soundly defeating Vaul and his army. Then the next thing we hear is that the Dragon is on Terra, in a very weakened state due to the fighting and lack of food supply, gets happened to run into the most powerful psyker ever, the emperor, and still the emperor was only just able to defeat this figure of oblivion, wanton destruction and devestation. Still the emperor couldn't destroy it only kind of put it in its already semi coma induced slumber and imprison it on Mars or Moon. I've heard it being Mars to so hey don't bite my head off. 

Also it is never stated that all of the C'tan were there when the Necrons turned on them and made them into shards, those of them such as the Void Dragon and the Outsider may have escaped such fates due to impending or unforseen circumstances.
(If it is stated somewhere by GW though, then by all means prove me wrong.)

I don't hate the new fluff or dislike it, it does give character to the Necrons, which is a good thing, there are many ways the plot can go with them now. Plus what if there are some still loyal necrons to the C'tan, who are trying to collect the shards and bring them together so that the C'tan can become whole again. 

Also I do believe it is possible for the shards of the C'tan to unite back together and become one again, that why the Crons keep them separate from each other.
If it is stated that the shards can't then I believe that is a major plot hole due to the fact that that one assassin group has a C'tan weapon that when close to a C'tan/shard morphs back into it like it was back home and was only missing. So I think it is entirely possible for the C'tan that were made into shards can become one again.




I really hope someone replies, seemed like mostly everyone here was competent and sound on all their arguements and can either add or improve on what I have just stated


----------



## Iron Angel

Warlock in Training said:


> I guess the badass Emperor is not so uber when he fought the Void Dragon, it was just a shard after all :wink:.
> 
> The Shard thing works, like the AoK is a simple shard of the Bloody handed God so is the Nightbringer and Deceaver now. Make fighting them not impossible now. Even a chump like the Emp can take a Shard. All makes sense now :laugh:


----------



## Iron Angel

All this talk just makes me think of how much was lost when GW slapped every Necron player in the face with this sham of a new set of fluff. "Fuck you, we want CHAOS!!!!! to be the big evil guys! Take your legitimate threat and shove it! Have some shards instead, HAHAHAHA! Pariahs? Obelisks? Pffff, you don't get to keep those either. We're trying to completely neuter the Necrons, remember? Oh and by the way, the Dragon on mars may or may not have been a C'tan. Oh and the Machine God isn't the Deceiver any more either. Fuck you all, we hate our xeno fanbase and we just want the Imperium and Chaos Spess Mehrens in the end."

The image on the front of the Necron codex should have just been a big middle finger. Thats why my army's fluff says" fuck you" to GW and keeps the C'tan as important as they once were and retains the pariahs and the obelisks and just claims the rest of the necrons forgot about these works-in-progress to pursue their own petty goals.

The more I think about it, the more I actually want to quit 40k altogether. I have to stop now.


----------



## Serpion5

Bringer of the Tide said:


> Okay, I really like 40k tabletop and fluff wise, and i've been reading up on the necron fluff ever since I started playing these guys which has been for the past 7 years. So I'd like to think that I know somewhat what I'm talking about. Again however this is all just my personal opinion, we can agree to disagree all day. I will however thoroughly defend my opinion if someone is opposed to it.
> 
> About this whole shard thing, gods fighting gods and emperor's, who beat who or kicked whose ass.
> 
> Nightbringer vs Khaine: Khaine was using the special swords given to him by F-ing Vaul to help him battle and defeat the near invincible armies of the C'tan & Necrons, because back then they all had the warriors of the Void Dragon with their lightning fields but no guass weaponry. Though due to the unrelenting tide of the Necrons and the one sword with the flaw khaine's warriors started to fall, eventually it came down to a duel between the Nightbringer and Khaine. (I believe it was the Nightbringer at full power, but that's up to speculation) In this duel the Nightbringer was thoroughly kicking the war gods ass. Even said to be toying with him because of his ability to phase in and out, and was picking his shots, wearing khaine down till the Nightbringer would either be tired of toying with him or just wanted to end it, but thanks to the ever interferring laughing god/Deceiver (also very debatable) who mentioned to khaine that the Nightbringer is vulnerable when he phases back into reality to strike, all of a sudden remembered it when he was about to be dealt defeat and when the Nightbringer materialized to deliver the final blow struck! This blow shattered his necrodermis and as a result forever tainted khaine. Also out of the Nightbringers anger of being denied what probably would've been one of his most greatest accomplishments forever imprinted the fear of death on every single race! Except the orcs, cause they are some crazy ass motha'fucka's!
> So everyone who has been saying khaine whooped the Nightbringers ass, you were very mistaken.
> (And if that happened to just be a shard, then the god-emperor have mercy upon your souls and pray for salvation cause it that was a shard we are all thoroughly fucked if some still faithful crons decide to unite the shards.)
> 
> Void Dragon vs Emperor/Vaul/blackstone fortresses: have any of you ever read the description of the Void Dragon? this guy is said to be the most powerful of all the C'tan and have the greatest affinity over the material realm. Let me play out to you how this went down. The Dragon was in space doing whatever the fuck a god of his power does, when Vaul takes to of the blackstone fortresses and uses them at full power and fires up the Dragon. Obviously this is going to have some effect, this would injure any entity/deity ever created if not obliterating many from existence! Then after Vaul took an army and attacked the Dragon, this attack resulted in utter failure btw which Vaul was never heard from again.(originally) i've also read that Vaul's attack just failed and later khaine got revenge on him for jewing him over about the whole sword thing. Either way Dragon still kicked ass by taking a massive attack from two blackstone fortresses and then soundly defeating Vaul and his army. Then the next thing we hear is that the Dragon is on Terra, in a very weakened state due to the fighting and lack of food supply, gets happened to run into the most powerful psyker ever, the emperor, and still the emperor was only just able to defeat this figure of oblivion, wanton destruction and devestation. Still the emperor couldn't destroy it only kind of put it in its already semi coma induced slumber and imprison it on Mars or Moon. I've heard it being Mars to so hey don't bite my head off.
> 
> Also it is never stated that all of the C'tan were there when the Necrons turned on them and made them into shards, those of them such as the Void Dragon and the Outsider may have escaped such fates due to impending or unforseen circumstances.
> (If it is stated somewhere by GW though, then by all means prove me wrong.)
> 
> I don't hate the new fluff or dislike it, it does give character to the Necrons, which is a good thing, there are many ways the plot can go with them now. Plus what if there are some still loyal necrons to the C'tan, who are trying to collect the shards and bring them together so that the C'tan can become whole again.
> 
> Also I do believe it is possible for the shards of the C'tan to unite back together and become one again, that why the Crons keep them separate from each other.
> If it is stated that the shards can't then I believe that is a major plot hole due to the fact that that one assassin group has a C'tan weapon that when close to a C'tan/shard morphs back into it like it was back home and was only missing. So I think it is entirely possible for the C'tan that were made into shards can become one again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope someone replies, seemed like mostly everyone here was competent and sound on all their arguements and can either add or improve on what I have just stated


Nope. 

From a timeline view, the Dragon came to Earth long after being split into shards. The rebellion happened a long before humanity even existed, so it is reasonable to assume that one such shard came to rest on Earth much much later. 

Khaine vs Nightbringer was both full gods, before the necron rebellion and before the shattering into Avatars. At this point in the timeline, the star gods were still fighting willingly alongside the necrons as their full selves and the Eldar gods were still able to manifest in the materium. Both of these factors have since been made impossible. 

On your shards uniting idea, it is entirely possible that this is the case, and I knw two members of Heresy who run their armies and fluff exactly this way.


----------



## Archon Dan

It is possible that not all C'Tan were sharded. The Flayer, for example was completely destroyed. Some could have survived, though their absence during the Great Sleep is inexplicable currently. Surely a surviving C'Tan would destroy as many tomb worlds as possible and perhaps it did as many are just gone. If you want to keep C'Tan from the last codex, use them as an Apocalypse unit. Perhaps they are a more in-tact shard that the Necron use only in the most extreme emergency.


----------



## SonofMalice

Random question that I have wondered since reading through the codex. So apparently now the necrons can be killed and self destruct in a manner that looks almost exactly like phasing out. Here is my question. In the millions of years since they went dormant many necrons are said to have been destroyed in one way and another, tectonic shifts, exterminatus, what have you. Now that they are waking up their casualties are going to only increase to to all the fighting that they are going to be doing. Now IIRC the Necrontyr that became the necrons did so after a massive war which must limit the number available for the change over. After that they still fought and presumably died until the end of that war. How, in the universe they are in now, are they going to last? They cannot (or at least have not) increased their numbers with new biotransfered creatures. They have a totally negative population growth and no real means of fixing that. Even the Eldar, dying race for the last 15,000+ years, can at least procreate. The Necrons seemed even more doomed than the rest of the galaxy due to this simple fact. Is this actually the case as it stands or am I missing something?

Sorry to break into the shard debate :biggrin:


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

Serpion5;1135137
We know that their knowledge of the warp was unparalleled said:


> They had to be great indeed to create technologically advanced orangutangs.
> 
> As for the original poll question, I liked the C'tan better as star gods. It made my nightbringer seem so much more worth taking thinking he was an unstoppable god on the tabletop. Now, I feel he is more along the lines of a broken piece of glass.


----------



## Deadeye776

SonofMalice said:


> Random question that I have wondered since reading through the codex. So apparently now the necrons can be killed and self destruct in a manner that looks almost exactly like phasing out. Here is my question. In the millions of years since they went dormant many necrons are said to have been destroyed in one way and another, tectonic shifts, exterminatus, what have you. Now that they are waking up their casualties are going to only increase to to all the fighting that they are going to be doing. Now IIRC the Necrontyr that became the necrons did so after a massive war which must limit the number available for the change over. After that they still fought and presumably died until the end of that war. How, in the universe they are in now, are they going to last? They cannot (or at least have not) increased their numbers with new biotransfered creatures. They have a totally negative population growth and no real means of fixing that. Even the Eldar, dying race for the last 15,000+ years, can at least procreate. The Necrons seemed even more doomed than the rest of the galaxy due to this simple fact. Is this actually the case as it stands or am I missing something?
> 
> Sorry to break into the shard debate :biggrin:


 



Something I thought about as well. Originally I figured the C'tan had them like Robots that could "download" their essences into new bodies once destroyed like the Nightbringer did.With the new fluff I have no idea. This is what I was talking about how they've been weakened now and a lot of people disagree with me. Despite the BS Ward just came up with, another reason they allied with the BA was for survival. They are afraid of dying. They have no souls so it's ultimate death when they go. Here's my orginal question to counter this. You asked how are they still around or how long will they last? If they had a weapon that could shatter and destroy beings like the C'tan, how is any faction in the Materium surviving against them. They have the most inconsistent power rating thanks to Ward. On one hand they are defeating Star Gods. Yes they woke up weakened, but there's nothing that says they've lost tech like the humans. Where are these weapons they used? That was my point originally with this post when I said it doesn't make sense. They took out Star Gods with their tech but now can't handle tyranids without Astartes help?


----------



## Iron Angel

Bringer of the Tide said:


> Plus what if there are some still loyal necrons to the C'tan, who are trying to collect the shards and bring them together so that the C'tan can become whole again.


:wink:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1169425#post1169425


----------



## Serpion5

SonofMalice said:


> Random question that I have wondered since reading through the codex. So apparently now the necrons can be killed and self destruct in a manner that looks almost exactly like phasing out. Here is my question. In the millions of years since they went dormant many necrons are said to have been destroyed in one way and another, tectonic shifts, exterminatus, what have you. Now that they are waking up their casualties are going to only increase to to all the fighting that they are going to be doing. Now IIRC the Necrontyr that became the necrons did so after a massive war which must limit the number available for the change over. After that they still fought and presumably died until the end of that war. How, in the universe they are in now, are they going to last? They cannot (or at least have not) increased their numbers with new biotransfered creatures. They have a totally negative population growth and no real means of fixing that. Even the Eldar, dying race for the last 15,000+ years, can at least procreate. The Necrons seemed even more doomed than the rest of the galaxy due to this simple fact. Is this actually the case as it stands or am I missing something?
> 
> Sorry to break into the shard debate :biggrin:


The necrons are indeed a dying race. Most minds can simply be retransferred, but there are cases where a mind is unrecoverable, and hence lost permanently. Keep in mind however, there were at the very least somewhere in the trillions to begin with, and somewhere in the billions currently accounted for apparently. 


As i understand the lore presented in the codex and the issues of White Dwarf released at the same time, every C'tan was shattered (except for the flayer who was destroyed) but not every shard was accounted for.


----------



## Bringer of the Tide

Serpion5 said:


> Nope.
> 
> From a timeline view, the Dragon came to Earth long after being split into shards. The rebellion happened a long before humanity even existed, so it is reasonable to assume that one such shard came to rest on Earth much much later.
> 
> Khaine vs Nightbringer was both full gods, before the necron rebellion and before the shattering into Avatars. At this point in the timeline, the star gods were still fighting willingly alongside the necrons as their full selves and the Eldar gods were still able to manifest in the materium. Both of these factors have since been made impossible.
> 
> On your shards uniting idea, it is entirely possible that this is the case, and I knw two members of Heresy who run their armies and fluff exactly this way.


Okay I'll believe the Dragon could of very well been just a shard, but I also think that my idea of it escaping the sharding be totally possible. However it is just my opinion. But yet still even if it was just a shard or in its weakened state, it almost killed the emperor of mankind, so that's saying something.

On the whole Nightbringer vs Khaine thing I was just trying to prove how it wasn't an ass wooping and that the Nightbringer was indeed winning. In my arguement I don't believe I said either were shards, or not at full power. Actually by stating that they were both at full power it just further helps my argument so thank you! 

and I don't know what you're saying "Nope" to? My whole thing about what happened to the dragon or just the part of ending up on terra?

The part about Vaul attacking the Dragon with blackstone fortresses and then an army, is true. It did happen. Just the part about Vaul's ending I'm not positive on b/c of all the retconning that happens. 
I've read that after attacking the Dragon, Vaul was never heard from again, and I've also heard that Khaine got revenge on him for the faulty sword and chained him to his anvil.

You can definitely throw me in with those two players as well, I run my army and fluff this way to, I was just wondering if this could very well be the case, or if I'm the only one.


----------



## Bringer of the Tide

Serpion5 said:


> The necrons are indeed a dying race. Most minds can simply be retransferred, but there are cases where a mind is unrecoverable, and hence lost permanently. Keep in mind however, there were at the very least somewhere in the trillions to begin with, and somewhere in the billions currently accounted for apparently.
> 
> 
> As i understand the lore presented in the codex and the issues of White Dwarf released at the same time, every C'tan was shattered (except for the flayer who was destroyed) but not every shard was accounted for.


I'm pretty sure that the Outsider wasn't sharded. Considering he went mad after consuming a lot of the other C'tan. Didn't he get put in some sphere thing and placed somewhere out of time and space type deal?


----------



## Serpion5

Bringer of the Tide said:


> Okay I'll believe the Dragon could of very well been just a shard, but I also think that my idea of it escaping the sharding be totally possible. However it is just my opinion. But yet still even if it was just a shard or in its weakened state, it almost killed the emperor of mankind, so that's saying something.
> 
> On the whole Nightbringer vs Khaine thing I was just trying to prove how it wasn't an ass wooping and that the Nightbringer was indeed winning. In my arguement I don't believe I said either were shards, or not at full power. Actually by stating that they were both at full power it just further helps my argument so thank you!
> 
> and I don't know what you're saying "Nope" to? My whole thing about what happened to the dragon or just the part of ending up on terra?
> 
> The part about Vaul attacking the Dragon with blackstone fortresses and then an army, is true. It did happen. Just the part about Vaul's ending I'm not positive on b/c of all the retconning that happens.
> I've read that after attacking the Dragon, Vaul was never heard from again, and I've also heard that Khaine got revenge on him for the faulty sword and chained him to his anvil.
> 
> You can definitely throw me in with those two players as well, I run my army and fluff this way to, I was just wondering if this could very well be the case, or if I'm the only one.


I'm saying nope to your idea that the Dragon could have escaped the sharding process. White Dwarf lists the Dragon as among the shards and provides the upgrades required to field it. And gw's stance is that WD is as Canon as any codex, so this information stands. It is logical to assume that one shard ended up on Terra, this I was not denying. 

The Nightbringer vs Khaine fight was a true clash of gods. Yes, that is quite awesome.  

Vaul now belongs to Slaanesh along with every other eldar god except for Khaine, Isha and Cegorach. There is no reason to believe he could have escaped, especially given that Khaine had crippled him and left him to die.

Khaine commissioned Vaul to make one hundred blades in exchange for Isha's hand. Vaul fell short of time and slipped a mortal blade among the others. Khaine did not discover the deception until Vaul and Isha were far away. We can assume this was during the battle with the Nightbringer as one of the eldar heroes carrying the blades fell. Khaine still defeated the Nightbringer but was permanently tainted. Later on Vaul did finish the last blade and returned to settle the matter with Khaine. This last blade was Anaris I believe, and despite its power Vaul was defeated by Khaine. Khaine chained Vaul to his own anvil and took Anaris for himself. It is the blade his Avatars use to this day. 

Also, I do not recall anywhere that it was Vaul himself who used the Talismans, that I had always attributed to the Eldar. I have never been aware of Vaul's direct involvement. But, on this I could be wrong. 



> I'm pretty sure that the Outsider wasn't sharded. Considering he went mad after consuming a lot of the other C'tan. Didn't he get put in some sphere thing and placed somewhere out of time and space type deal?


The Outsider is among those sharded. The Eldar sphere could be imprisoning a shard that the necrons failed to capture. Keep in mind that the eldar do not have tesseract labyrinths, and so would have to make do with whatever imprisoning they could manage.


----------



## ckcrawford

Serpion5 said:


> I'm saying nope to your idea that the Dragon could have escaped the sharding process. White Dwarf lists the Dragon as among the shards and provides the upgrades required to field it. And gw's stance is that WD is as Canon as any codex, so this information stands. It is logical to assume that one shard ended up on Terra, this I was not denying.


I'm sure that pissed Mr. McNeill off. Poor guy pretty much invented the Void Dragon, and now has to make due with Matt Wards stupid shit.


----------



## Serpion5

ckcrawford said:


> I'm sure that pissed Mr. McNeill off. Poor guy pretty much invented the Void Dragon, and now has to make due with Matt Wards stupid shit.


I actually did contact McNeill on this earlier in the thread, and he reluctantly conceded that the Nightbringer still worked as a shard in his novel. Yet he was adamant that the Dragon was a true c'tan. 

Unfortunately his preferences were not enough to sway the guys who mattered, and the fluff was rewritten regardless. 


I generally try not to favour one writer over another, as they will all have their ups and downs. While I do prefer Ward's version of the necron history to an extent, it hasn't entirely overshadowed McNeill's history of the star gods themselves. Much of what McNeill wrote is still perfectly credible, as well as I infinitely prefer McNeill's portrayal of the Ultramarines over Matt's.


----------



## ckcrawford

_I'm very cranky and wish violence on another human being._

Regardless of who or why, posts of that nature are not needed here. 

- Serpa


----------



## SoulGazer

ckcrawford said:


> I'm sure that pissed Mr. McNeill off. Poor guy pretty much invented the Void Dragon, and now has to make due with Matt Wards stupid shit.


I don't believe it was Ward's fault. GW wanted the C'tan out of the picture so Chaos could continue be the real threat. Them and the Nids, anyways. Ward just did the best he could, and so we got crazy robot trolls.


----------



## BalancedDiet

As much as I try to like it, I just can't bring myself to like the new C'Tan fluff.

Or, for that matter, most of the new Necron fluff.

I liked my perfectly coordinated, practically indestructible soul harvesting deathbots. But, I'll quite readily concede that the new fluff does lend them the customization they lacked beforehand with regards to fluff. I just really can't see the Necrons as a race who could be brought down through attrition, which, from my reading, seems to be what's being implied in the new Codex.

It would be nice to think of the Dragon as the last true C'Tan


----------



## Lost&Damned

Deadeye776 said:


> The Story of the talismans of Vaul hint that they were unsuccessful against the Dragon.The Emperor was almost killed by a huge Ork warboss who wasn't a pariah and I'm going to assume he wasn't rocking a bolter. As someone who has had his life saved before in the military I can tell you there'sa huge difference between on the ropes and getting your life saved. People save your life when your about to die. Kind of indicative in the phrase "saving life." On the ropes is getting hit with a good shot and getting your bell wrung. Want an example? Sanguinius could have used someone to "save his life" as he was not on the ropes but being strangled by them.


i always thought of that as a "on purpose" thing, the emperor put himself in that position so babby horus could feel better about himself.
Reason being, the Emperor saved his life before that, so the Emperor wanted him to not just feel like a ... subordinate, but someone he actually needed. and accoring to the codex the Ork warlord was "struggling to to choke the emeperor" not really "saving" his life.
Also, didnt realise this thread was 26 pages long.......


----------



## Lux

As far as I know it is no where confirmed of when the battle between Khaine and the nightbringer took place, thus it is pure speculation for one to state that the nightbringer was or was not a shard. There is no official statement on this, due to the time lines being left open.

Additionally the fight likely took place in the materium where the CTan are masters of all reality, where they can warp time, space, and reality to their will. Khaine being a warp entity in nature, would in no way have more power or dominance over the materium than a full form and powered CTan.

Thus it leads me to believe that the nightbringer was indeed a shard, and was being forced by the Necrons as a war automaton to fight Khaine.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lux said:


> As far as I know it is no where confirmed of when the battle between Khaine and the nightbringer took place, thus it is pure speculation for one to state that the nightbringer was or was not a shard. There is no official statement on this, due to the time lines being left open.
> 
> Additionally the fight likely took place in the materium where the CTan are masters of all reality, where they can warp time, space, and reality to their will. Khaine being a warp entity in nature, would in no way have more power or dominance over the materium than a full form and powered CTan.
> 
> Thus it leads me to believe that the nightbringer was indeed a shard, and was being forced by the Necrons as a war automaton to fight Khaine.


The alleged confrontation between Khaine and the Nightbringer has been used a lot in this thread, but I think people are putting too much stock in it - after all it is only a myth with only very minute details available.


----------



## Serpion5

Lux said:


> As far as I know it is no where confirmed of when the battle between Khaine and the nightbringer took place, thus it is pure speculation for one to state that the nightbringer was or was not a shard. There is no official statement on this, due to the time lines being left open.
> 
> Additionally the fight likely took place in the materium where the CTan are masters of all reality, where they can warp time, space, and reality to their will. Khaine being a warp entity in nature, would in no way have more power or dominance over the materium than a full form and powered CTan.
> 
> Thus it leads me to believe that the nightbringer was indeed a shard, and was being forced by the Necrons as a war automaton to fight Khaine.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The alleged confrontation between Khaine and the Nightbringer has been used a lot in this thread, but I think people are putting too much stock in it - after all it is only a myth with only very minute details available.


No, it tracks with the timeline just fine. Khaine vs Aza'gorod happens, Khaine is tainted, universe is split by Asuryan, War in heaven concludes, necrons rebel, C'tan sharded. 

The mythology presented in older lore from the previous dex (bearing in mind that none of the War in Heaven mythology has been contradicted and as such can still be considered canon) as well as the history paragraphs in the DoW novel series give enough info for this conclusion to be drawn. Plus the fact that physical evidence of the confrontation exists in the form of Khaine's Reaper Aspect.


----------



## Deadeye776

Hmm, that poll seems to have gotten a LOT closer since I first voted, no? Originally it was a landslide for the new fluff. I guess after examining the facts of it more and more are starting to see the other side of the argument. Maybe next they will have a Tyranid rebellion?


----------



## SoulGazer

Deadeye776 said:


> Maybe next they will have a Tyranid rebellion?


SHHHHH! Don't type that, they might see and make it real! What have you done?! :scare:


----------



## ckcrawford

interested to see what Matt Ward has in store for chaos


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

ckcrawford said:


> interested to see what Matt Ward has in store for chaos


Looks more like it's gonna be done by Phil Kelly


----------



## Lux

Serpion5 said:


> No, it tracks with the timeline just fine. Khaine vs Aza'gorod happens, Khaine is tainted, universe is split by Asuryan, War in heaven concludes, necrons rebel, C'tan sharded.
> 
> The mythology presented in older lore from the previous dex (bearing in mind that none of the War in Heaven mythology has been contradicted and as such can still be considered canon) as well as the history paragraphs in the DoW novel series give enough info for this conclusion to be drawn. Plus the fact that physical evidence of the confrontation exists in the form of Khaine's Reaper Aspect.


No intention of being rude, but that is entirely and purely your perception of it as well as your interpretation of it.

The battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer occured some time during the war of heaven. Did it happen prior to the Necron rebellion or post of the rebellion no one knows, as no date of it has ever been given. 

The Necrons with the backing of the full C'Tan were waging war upon the old ones and their creations for a long time, of which during this period the necrons absolutely dominated the old ones to the point they were pushed back to their last fortresses.

Than the rebellion occures and the C'Tan are reduced to shards, the war didnt end here though, because the war continued until the galaxy was devoid of almost all life. 

The battle between Khaine and The Night bringer could have occurred pre rebellion or post, its entirely objectively unknown at this moment.

Personally I believe the battle between the two entities occurred post of the rebellion due to the fact that the Nightbringer was being used as a weapon against the eldar. Of which once its shell was destroyed the necrons than made it a new one, if it had been infact a full ctan I highly doubt the Necrons would have made it a new shell seeing as they saw it as an enemy to be exterminated (the night bringer).


----------



## Akatsuki13

You do raise a point a valid point Lux however I'm not entirely sure if a fragment of the Nightbringer would be strong enough to taint Khaine as it did. Plus the Codex specifically states that the Silent King betrayed the C'tan after the Old Ones were beaten as he knew the Necrons couldn't win the War of Heaven without the C'tan. So it's more likely that the Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine, tainting him in the process and then had his body rebuild so he could continue the war.


----------



## The_Reaper

Just wondering but are there multiple shards for an individual C'tan like the Nightbringer or Void Dragon? If so would there be multiple Nightbringers or Void Dragons in the WH40k universe?


----------



## Serpion5

Lux said:


> No intention of being rude, but that is entirely and purely your perception of it as well as your interpretation of it.
> 
> The battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer occured some time during the war of heaven. Did it happen prior to the Necron rebellion or post of the rebellion no one knows, as no date of it has ever been given.
> 
> The Necrons with the backing of the full C'Tan were waging war upon the old ones and their creations for a long time, of which during this period the necrons absolutely dominated the old ones to the point they were pushed back to their last fortresses.
> 
> Than the rebellion occures and the C'Tan are reduced to shards, the war didnt end here though, because the war continued until the galaxy was devoid of almost all life.
> 
> The battle between Khaine and The Night bringer could have occurred pre rebellion or post, its entirely objectively unknown at this moment.
> 
> Personally I believe the battle between the two entities occurred post of the rebellion due to the fact that the Nightbringer was being used as a weapon against the eldar. Of which once its shell was destroyed the necrons than made it a new one, if it had been infact a full ctan I highly doubt the Necrons would have made it a new shell seeing as they saw it as an enemy to be exterminated (the night bringer).


Maybe you're not examining it so closely? 

The Necron Codex states that the Eldar fought alongside the Old Ones during the War in Heaven. It also says that following the rebellion, the necrons were weakened to a point where they could not hope to fight the Eldar and so went into stasis almost immediately afterward. 

Looking further into it, this fight between the two happens well before Khaine was shattered by Slaanesh. Ergo, it was Khaine himself rather than an avatar. For this to be possible suggests an earler encounter, as the Eldar Gods were brought forth by the Eldar at the direction of the Old Ones (heavily implied in Liber Chaotica). Also remember that at some point, Asuryan put barriers in place to permanently separate mortals and gods, so this has to have happened before then. 

Before someone points out that I'm citing mythology here, I'd like to remind you that we're talking about a fictional universe, where gods and monsters are very real things. Also bear in mind that eldar mythology includes the c'tan and other gods regularly, and they are clearly present.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The_Reaper said:


> Just wondering but are there multiple shards for an individual C'tan like the Nightbringer or Void Dragon? If so would there be multiple Nightbringers or Void Dragons in the WH40k universe?


Yes on both accounts, each C'tan was shattered into numerous shards (perhaps even thousands).



Serpion5 said:


> as the Eldar Gods were brought forth by the Eldar at the direction of the Old Ones (heavily implied in Liber Chaotica). Also remember that at some point, Asuryan put barriers in place to permanently separate mortals and gods, so this has to have happened before then.
> 
> Before someone points out that I'm citing mythology here, I'd like to remind you that we're talking about a fictional universe, where gods and monsters are very real things. Also bear in mind that eldar mythology includes the c'tan and other gods regularly, and they are clearly present.


I don't disagree with you a lot _Serp_ (not since you learnt your stuff anyway :wink but one thing I've never strictly agreed with you on is your interpretation of the Eldar gods. As you said, you are citing ancient mythology in a fictional universe where these things can and do exist, but it is still half-forgotten mythology within the setting nonetheless. For example, within the mythology Asuryan was said to have erected a barrier between the warp and reality to prevent Khaine waging war upon the Eldar, how much stock can we truly put into this tale as the reason for the warp/reality split? I would say not much, it seeming to simply be the Eldar's justification for the warp being seperate from realspace. That is the kind of thing we are dealing with here - fables, ancient analogies, and quasi-religious tales to describe the Eldar's interpretation of true events.

Do the modern Eldar recall the War in Heaven (as in the conflict between Old Ones and the Necrons/C'tan) or even have record of it? We know that by the time of the Fall the Necrons were only remembered (and the vigil of the tomb worlds maintained) by a vast and outspoken minority. Some of the Eldar mythic cycles themselves refer to the _War in Heaven_ as a conflict between the Eldar gods (and by extension the Eldar themselves) and nothing to do with the C'tan, primarily being caused by Vaul's deception of Khaine. Yet in other Eldar myths (the same ones that portray Khaine's duel with the Nightbringer) Vaul's deception of Khaine has dire consequences of a different nature; the death of Khaine's followers due to the single mortal sword. The myths claim Khaine shattered the Nightbringer's form, (given the new lore) this may be an Eldar myth to explain the shattering of the Nightbringer (and by extension all C'tan), who knows. One version of the Eldar myths has Asuryan erect the barrier between warp and reality prior to the War in Heaven - being the civil war amongst the Eldar gods (due to Khaine's desire to have made war upon the Eldar), yet in another version the barrier is not mentioned and has Khaine leading armies of Eldar against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven. In some Vaul is chained to his anvil by Khaine and in others he is leading the Eldar against the Void Dragon. My point is that most of the Eldar myths are ambiguous and the lore openly acknowledges this, I don't believe they are attempting to portray facts.

As to the nature of the Eldar gods themselves, I think the biggest clues are given in the myths of their destruction:

_"The Eldar say that their gods are dead: Slaanesh destroyed them and stole their power. Nonetheless there remained some ideas and values that were lodged so firmly into the Eldar psyche that not even ultimate degradation could erase them from the racial consciousness. This incorruptible spirit is represented by the most powerful of the ancient Eldar gods."_

In that quoted segment the reference to _"ultimate degradation"_ being unable to erase some ideas from the racial consciousness means there were others that were. This is an oblique reference to the other Eldar gods. Immediately prior to the Fall, the values and virtues represented by the traditional Eldar gods had been eclipsed and ignored by the vast majority of the Eldar population. Just as warp gods such as Slaanesh can grow fat and bloated with power from the fodder of souls, so too can the reverse happen. The traditional Eldar gods would have been starved of power. They may have still existed immediately prior to the Fall but they were likely not the vibrant deities they were previously. What does this tell us? I would argue that the Eldar gods were simply the _"ideas and values"_ that were firmly lodged into the Eldar psyche, thus represented as gods because of the Eldar's innately powerful link with the empyrean. Does that mean these deities were physical entities who literally strode across battlefields and warzones against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven as the mythology would have us believe? I would edge more towards saying no. But then that depends on how much we conclude that the Eldar gods are simply analogies or actually _'real'_ (or a strange mix of the two), as Gav Thorpe said: _"First off we must decide how much of Khaine_ [and the other gods in this context] _ as an entity is a mythological analogy and, because of the funkiness of the warp, how much a reality. At a basic level, as with all myths and belief systems, the Eldar gods are analogies..."_

Regardless, the fall of the old Eldar pantheon and the rise of Slaanesh represents the drastic shift in the _"ideas and values"_ inherent in the Eldar psyche, which was reflected in the warp as the titanic duel between Slaanesh and the Eldar gods. The reason Khaine and Cegorach (and possibly Isha) survived was because the _"ideas and values"_ they represented were so firmly lodged in the Eldar psyche that not even the _"ultimate degradation"_ that Slaanesh (being the _"ideas and values"_ most prominent in the immediately pre-Fall Eldar society) wrought was able erase them from the racial consciousness. I've always found Gav Thorpe's ideas on the subject fascinating: link 1, link 2, link 3.

Kind of went off on a tangent there, but my original point concerning the Khaine/Nightbringer conflict I think stands.


----------



## Lux

Personally I think Khaine never existed, and similarly to what COTE stated the eldar gods were their societal paradigm.

Thus the battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer, and how ultimately the nightbringer infected Khaine may have all been symbolic for the C'Tan forever after influencing the Eldar's paradigm of war.

Perhaps the C'Tan fought so viciously, underhanded and "deceptively" that it forever changed the collective conscious of the Eldar in terms of warfare, and since Khaine is their perception of war it also changed Khaine.

The Eldar had to adapt their honorable ways of combat, to be able to fight and survive against a deceptive, underhanded, ruthless opponent and thus Khaine was "corrupted", for the Eldar began to fight similarly.


----------



## Serpion5

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't disagree with you a lot _Serp_ (not since you learnt your stuff anyway :wink but one thing I've never strictly agreed with you on is your interpretation of the Eldar gods. As you said, you are citing ancient mythology in a fictional universe where these things can and do exist, but it is still half-forgotten mythology within the setting nonetheless. For example, within the mythology Asuryan was said to have erected a barrier between the warp and reality to prevent Khaine waging war upon the Eldar, how much stock can we truly put into this tale as the reason for the warp/reality split? I would say not much, it seeming to simply be the Eldar's justification for the warp being seperate from realspace. That is the kind of thing we are dealing with here - fables, ancient analogies, and quasi-religious tales to describe the Eldar's interpretation of true events.
> 
> Do the modern Eldar recall the War in Heaven (as in the conflict between Old Ones and the Necrons/C'tan) or even have record of it? We know that by the time of the Fall the Necrons were only remembered (and the vigil of the tomb worlds maintained) by a vast and outspoken minority. Some of the Eldar mythic cycles themselves refer to the _War in Heaven_ as a conflict between the Eldar gods (and by extension the Eldar themselves) and nothing to do with the C'tan, primarily being caused by Vaul's deception of Khaine. Yet in other Eldar myths (the same ones that portray Khaine's duel with the Nightbringer) Vaul's deception of Khaine has dire consequences of a different nature; the death of Khaine's followers due to the single mortal sword. The myths claim Khaine shattered the Nightbringer's form, (given the new lore) this may be an Eldar myth to explain the shattering of the Nightbringer (and by extension all C'tan), who knows. One version of the Eldar myths has Asuryan erect the barrier between warp and reality prior to the War in Heaven - being the civil war amongst the Eldar gods (due to Khaine's desire to have made war upon the Eldar), yet in another version the barrier is not mentioned and has Khaine leading armies of Eldar against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven. In some Vaul is chained to his anvil by Khaine and in others he is leading the Eldar against the Void Dragon. My point is that most of the Eldar myths are ambiguous and the lore openly acknowledges this, I don't believe they are attempting to portray facts.
> 
> As to the nature of the Eldar gods themselves, I think the biggest clues are given in the myths of their destruction:
> 
> _"The Eldar say that their gods are dead: Slaanesh destroyed them and stole their power. Nonetheless there remained some ideas and values that were lodged so firmly into the Eldar psyche that not even ultimate degradation could erase them from the racial consciousness. This incorruptible spirit is represented by the most powerful of the ancient Eldar gods."_
> 
> In that quoted segment the reference to _"ultimate degradation"_ being unable to erase some ideas from the racial consciousness means there were others that were. This is an oblique reference to the other Eldar gods. Immediately prior to the Fall, the values and virtues represented by the traditional Eldar gods had been eclipsed and ignored by the vast majority of the Eldar population. Just as warp gods such as Slaanesh can grow fat and bloated with power from the fodder of souls, so too can the reverse happen. The traditional Eldar gods would have been starved of power. They may have still existed immediately prior to the Fall but they were likely not the vibrant deities they were previously. What does this tell us? I would argue that the Eldar gods were simply the _"ideas and values"_ that were firmly lodged into the Eldar psyche, thus represented as gods because of the Eldar's innately powerful link with the empyrean. Does that mean these deities were physical entities who literally strode across battlefields and warzones against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven as the mythology would have us believe? I would edge more towards saying no. But then that depends on how much we conclude that the Eldar gods are simply analogies or actually _'real'_ (or a strange mix of the two), as Gav Thorpe said: _"First off we must decide how much of Khaine_ [and the other gods in this context] _ as an entity is a mythological analogy and, because of the funkiness of the warp, how much a reality. At a basic level, as with all myths and belief systems, the Eldar gods are analogies..."_
> 
> Regardless, the fall of the old Eldar pantheon and the rise of Slaanesh represents the drastic shift in the _"ideas and values"_ inherent in the Eldar psyche, which was reflected in the warp as the titanic duel between Slaanesh and the Eldar gods. The reason Khaine and Cegorach (and possibly Isha) survived was because the _"ideas and values"_ they represented were so firmly lodged in the Eldar psyche that not even the _"ultimate degradation"_ that Slaanesh (being the _"ideas and values"_ most prominent in the immediately pre-Fall Eldar society) wrought was able erase them from the racial consciousness. I've always found Gav Thorpe's ideas on the subject fascinating: link 1, link 2, link 3.
> 
> Kind of went off on a tangent there, but my original point concerning the Khaine/Nightbringer conflict I think stands.





Lux said:


> Personally I think Khaine never existed, and similarly to what COTE stated the eldar gods were their societal paradigm.
> 
> Thus the battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer, and how ultimately the nightbringer infected Khaine may have all been symbolic for the C'Tan forever after influencing the Eldar's paradigm of war.
> 
> Perhaps the C'Tan fought so viciously, underhanded and "deceptively" that it forever changed the collective conscious of the Eldar in terms of warfare, and since Khaine is their perception of war it also changed Khaine.
> 
> The Eldar had to adapt their honorable ways of combat, to be able to fight and survive against a deceptive, underhanded, ruthless opponent and thus Khaine was "corrupted", for the Eldar began to fight similarly.


These views are of course, entirely valid. Given the current setting however I chose to take them a little more literally. Whether or not this is correct is ultimately unknowable. 

In the end however, I believe both sides to be equally plausible.


----------



## Bringer of the Tide

Lux said:


> Personally I think Khaine never existed, and similarly to what COTE stated the eldar gods were their societal paradigm.
> 
> Thus the battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer, and how ultimately the nightbringer infected Khaine may have all been symbolic for the C'Tan forever after influencing the Eldar's paradigm of war.
> 
> Perhaps the C'Tan fought so viciously, underhanded and "deceptively" that it forever changed the collective conscious of the Eldar in terms of warfare, and since Khaine is their perception of war it also changed Khaine.
> 
> The Eldar had to adapt their honorable ways of combat, to be able to fight and survive against a deceptive, underhanded, ruthless opponent and thus Khaine was "corrupted", for the Eldar began to fight similarly.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes on both accounts, each C'tan was shattered into numerous shards (perhaps even thousands).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with you a lot _Serp_ (not since you learnt your stuff anyway :wink but one thing I've never strictly agreed with you on is your interpretation of the Eldar gods. As you said, you are citing ancient mythology in a fictional universe where these things can and do exist, but it is still half-forgotten mythology within the setting nonetheless. For example, within the mythology Asuryan was said to have erected a barrier between the warp and reality to prevent Khaine waging war upon the Eldar, how much stock can we truly put into this tale as the reason for the warp/reality split? I would say not much, it seeming to simply be the Eldar's justification for the warp being seperate from realspace. That is the kind of thing we are dealing with here - fables, ancient analogies, and quasi-religious tales to describe the Eldar's interpretation of true events.
> 
> Do the modern Eldar recall the War in Heaven (as in the conflict between Old Ones and the Necrons/C'tan) or even have record of it? We know that by the time of the Fall the Necrons were only remembered (and the vigil of the tomb worlds maintained) by a vast and outspoken minority. Some of the Eldar mythic cycles themselves refer to the _War in Heaven_ as a conflict between the Eldar gods (and by extension the Eldar themselves) and nothing to do with the C'tan, primarily being caused by Vaul's deception of Khaine. Yet in other Eldar myths (the same ones that portray Khaine's duel with the Nightbringer) Vaul's deception of Khaine has dire consequences of a different nature; the death of Khaine's followers due to the single mortal sword. The myths claim Khaine shattered the Nightbringer's form, (given the new lore) this may be an Eldar myth to explain the shattering of the Nightbringer (and by extension all C'tan), who knows. One version of the Eldar myths has Asuryan erect the barrier between warp and reality prior to the War in Heaven - being the civil war amongst the Eldar gods (due to Khaine's desire to have made war upon the Eldar), yet in another version the barrier is not mentioned and has Khaine leading armies of Eldar against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven. In some Vaul is chained to his anvil by Khaine and in others he is leading the Eldar against the Void Dragon. My point is that most of the Eldar myths are ambiguous and the lore openly acknowledges this, I don't believe they are attempting to portray facts.
> 
> As to the nature of the Eldar gods themselves, I think the biggest clues are given in the myths of their destruction:
> 
> _"The Eldar say that their gods are dead: Slaanesh destroyed them and stole their power. Nonetheless there remained some ideas and values that were lodged so firmly into the Eldar psyche that not even ultimate degradation could erase them from the racial consciousness. This incorruptible spirit is represented by the most powerful of the ancient Eldar gods."_
> 
> In that quoted segment the reference to _"ultimate degradation"_ being unable to erase some ideas from the racial consciousness means there were others that were. This is an oblique reference to the other Eldar gods. Immediately prior to the Fall, the values and virtues represented by the traditional Eldar gods had been eclipsed and ignored by the vast majority of the Eldar population. Just as warp gods such as Slaanesh can grow fat and bloated with power from the fodder of souls, so too can the reverse happen. The traditional Eldar gods would have been starved of power. They may have still existed immediately prior to the Fall but they were likely not the vibrant deities they were previously. What does this tell us? I would argue that the Eldar gods were simply the _"ideas and values"_ that were firmly lodged into the Eldar psyche, thus represented as gods because of the Eldar's innately powerful link with the empyrean. Does that mean these deities were physical entities who literally strode across battlefields and warzones against the C'tan/Necrons during the War in Heaven as the mythology would have us believe? I would edge more towards saying no. But then that depends on how much we conclude that the Eldar gods are simply analogies or actually _'real'_ (or a strange mix of the two), as Gav Thorpe said: _"First off we must decide how much of Khaine_ [and the other gods in this context] _ as an entity is a mythological analogy and, because of the funkiness of the warp, how much a reality. At a basic level, as with all myths and belief systems, the Eldar gods are analogies..."_
> 
> Regardless, the fall of the old Eldar pantheon and the rise of Slaanesh represents the drastic shift in the _"ideas and values"_ inherent in the Eldar psyche, which was reflected in the warp as the titanic duel between Slaanesh and the Eldar gods. The reason Khaine and Cegorach (and possibly Isha) survived was because the _"ideas and values"_ they represented were so firmly lodged in the Eldar psyche that not even the _"ultimate degradation"_ that Slaanesh (being the _"ideas and values"_ most prominent in the immediately pre-Fall Eldar society) wrought was able erase them from the racial consciousness. I've always found Gav Thorpe's ideas on the subject fascinating: link 1, link 2, link 3.
> 
> Kind of went off on a tangent there, but my original point concerning the Khaine/Nightbringer conflict I think stands.





Serpion5 said:


> These views are of course, entirely valid. Given the current setting however I chose to take them a little more literally. Whether or not this is correct is ultimately unknowable.
> 
> In the end however, I believe both sides to be equally plausible.




Okay so about your suggested thoughts of the Eldar pantheon, I don't see how they can be true.... well the whole they might not of ever existed just that the eldar use these supposed myths to translate their ideas of reality and what not...

I don't get it from any codex, not the Eldar, Necron or Chaos one, don't they all state something about the Eldar gods in one version of them?

and I would love to hear your explanation for the Avatar of Khaine then Lux


----------



## Deadeye776

This fluff, more and more are beginning to realize, has drastically changed the Necrons and C'tan. For most it's not in a possitive way. Stories that blew your mind like Mechanicus and Nightbringer have been retconned and the Gods are depowered. Originally the Gods were weak because of a lack of food source. Now? They're recovering from an ass kicking. In no way were the C'tan ever superior to the Necrons in the new fluff. In fact, it was through deceit they were going to make the Necrons slave and not as an alternative to brutal slaughter. The Silent King and the Necrons have dominion over the C'tan now. So how am I supposed to look at them as a valid threat. The poll now reflect more and more people who've really investigated what those of us who orignally debated on this thread. 

How would you like it if the Chaos gods were overthrown by Abaddon using some made up weapon that summoned the forces of Chaos (y'know the same shit they're made of) to turn the gods into energy shards? Basically beings who are beyond the laws of time and physics were destroyed with energy? Doesn't make any sense. The C'tan were birthed from the original big bang that made the universe. So your telling me that the Necrons had the tech to develop that but couldn't handle the Old Ones? I call bullshit. This makes as much sense as Draigo permanently defeating Chaos in the warp. At least they made an explanation on what's actual happening. 

This crap they've created now has thrown the entire setting into disarray. Massive shows of power and then weakness make the new Necron army either the most powerful army in the mortal universe or a dying race of morons. I promise you that Chaos is next. We'll see how accepting you are when the Kharn defeats Angron and beheads Khorne to become the new blood god.


----------



## Iron Angel

Deadeye776 said:


> This fluff, more and more are beginning to realize, has drastically changed the Necrons and C'tan. For most it's not in a possitive way. Stories that blew your mind like Mechanicus and Nightbringer have been retconned and the Gods are depowered. Originally the Gods were weak because of a lack of food source. Now? They're recovering from an ass kicking. In no way were the C'tan ever superior to the Necrons in the new fluff. In fact, it was through deceit they were going to make the Necrons slave and not as an alternative to brutal slaughter. The Silent King and the Necrons have dominion over the C'tan now. So how am I supposed to look at them as a valid threat. The poll now reflect more and more people who've really investigated what those of us who orignally debated on this thread.
> 
> How would you like it if the Chaos gods were overthrown by Abaddon using some made up weapon that summoned the forces of Chaos (y'know the same shit they're made of) to turn the gods into energy shards? Basically beings who are beyond the laws of time and physics were destroyed with energy? Doesn't make any sense. The C'tan were birthed from the original big bang that made the universe. So your telling me that the Necrons had the tech to develop that but couldn't handle the Old Ones? I call bullshit. This makes as much sense as Draigo permanently defeating Chaos in the warp. At least they made an explanation on what's actual happening.
> 
> This crap they've created now has thrown the entire setting into disarray. Massive shows of power and then weakness make the new Necron army either the most powerful army in the mortal universe or a dying race of morons. I promise you that Chaos is next. We'll see how accepting you are when the Kharn defeats Angron and beheads Khorne to become the new blood god.


I know, its almost as if the new fluff was written by Matt Wa-

Oh shit.

Anyway, while I agree with you, I chalk it up to the C'tan themselves being betrayed by one of their own, namely the Deceiver. While that outlook is not necessarily canon, it definitely lessens the view of how weak the C'tan are, and sets up a plotline where the Deceiver, while currently weak, is consolidating power in the shadows so that he, and he alone, will be the ruler of the Necrons as well as the only C'tan.


----------



## Deadeye776

Hmm, Deciever's while they think they want power only crave anarchy and chaos. I don't see him solidifying himself as the only power. Also I really dug the Void Dragon as the prime C'tan. Also dug the Nightbringer and Outsider descriptions and what they represented. The lone figure of the Deciever would not, to me at least, be a substitute for what we've lost in terms of power. Deceit isn't a substitute for the horror of death, madness, or complete oblivion which is what the other three represented. I liked the horror aspect they represented. 

As I've said each of the ultimate dooms represented something primal. Being devoured and absorbed to live on in a biological nightmare of a new lifeform, tyranids. Being slaughtered would be a grace compared to the ultimate fate of having C'tan feast on your very life essence. Having your soul destroyed may also seem more pleasant than living with it warped and imprisoned to be feasted and played with by the Ruinous powers. This new fluff has robbed me of that horror aspect from the Necrons and C'tan. The Deciever's play for power, while interesting, doesn't represent the sociopathic desires of his former kin.


----------



## Serpion5

The point of reducing the necron c'tan threat level was to re-establish Chaos and Tyranids as the two primary threats to the West and East respectively. 

Why they felt the need to reduce the grimdark I do not know, but given that all of Ward's codecies have played into each other, I am curious to see where this eventually leads.


----------



## ckcrawford

Deadeye776 said:


> This fluff, more and more are beginning to realize, has drastically changed the Necrons and C'tan. For most it's not in a possitive way. Stories that blew your mind like Mechanicus and Nightbringer have been retconned and the Gods are depowered. Originally the Gods were weak because of a lack of food source. Now? They're recovering from an ass kicking. In no way were the C'tan ever superior to the Necrons in the new fluff. In fact, it was through deceit they were going to make the Necrons slave and not as an alternative to brutal slaughter. The Silent King and the Necrons have dominion over the C'tan now. So how am I supposed to look at them as a valid threat. The poll now reflect more and more people who've really investigated what those of us who orignally debated on this thread.
> 
> How would you like it if the Chaos gods were overthrown by Abaddon using some made up weapon that summoned the forces of Chaos (y'know the same shit they're made of) to turn the gods into energy shards? Basically beings who are beyond the laws of time and physics were destroyed with energy? Doesn't make any sense. The C'tan were birthed from the original big bang that made the universe. So your telling me that the Necrons had the tech to develop that but couldn't handle the Old Ones? I call bullshit. This makes as much sense as Draigo permanently defeating Chaos in the warp. At least they made an explanation on what's actual happening.
> 
> This crap they've created now has thrown the entire setting into disarray. Massive shows of power and then weakness make the new Necron army either the most powerful army in the mortal universe or a dying race of morons. I promise you that Chaos is next. We'll see how accepting you are when the Kharn defeats Angron and beheads Khorne to become the new blood god.


:clapping:

Very well put. I can't believe this bullshit. And the sad thing is that most people are saying... "oh well... it fits."


----------



## SoulGazer

Yes, Necrons can shard and kill gods but can't defeat Space Marines. Sounds like 40k to me. And while it does sound silly, the Warp works exactly the same way. A daemon may summon enough warp energies to destroy a Chaos god in theory. This coup attempt was spoken of in the book _Hammer of Daemons_. Some powerful daemon tried to overthrow Khorne and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. However, it sounds like it's at least possible for that to happen, so having the C'tan destroyed by huge amounts of materium energy is at least plausible for the universe, if not logically sound. Then again, this is 40k, it's supposed to be awesome, not logical.

The retcons still make me cry, though. I want my star gods back.


----------



## Xisor

I can't agree. I think there's far stronger and more interesting things coming from the revisions than there ever was before. Certainly in my mind, the ideas for the nature of the Outsider and its role in Necron armies is immense. The idea of the Deceiver being many shards cooperating together, having tricked the Necrons into sundering its peers, but it itself having learned to coordinate whilst sharded and thus 'preserve its will'. Delicious.

That is not dead which cannot die.


----------



## Deadeye776

Xisor said:


> I can't agree. I think there's far stronger and more interesting things coming from the revisions than there ever was before. Certainly in my mind, the ideas for the nature of the Outsider and its role in Necron armies is immense. The idea of the Deceiver being many shards cooperating together, having tricked the Necrons into sundering its peers, but it itself having learned to coordinate whilst sharded and thus 'preserve its will'. Delicious.
> 
> That is not dead which cannot die.


 

First of all the C'tan I think I care the LEAST about the Deciever. He seems to have very mortal aims of power and rule which can be reasoned with therefore bringing them back to the mundane threat level. The Nightbringer, Outsider, and Void Dragon represent concepts that cannot be reasoned with. They want nothing but to perpetuate what they are. In that they are like the Chaos Gods and Tyranids. The Deciever I see more of a Cegorach role of a lurker and overall coward. Tricksters will never rule empires for good reasons. No pantheon I'm aware of has ever been effectively ruled by a trickster god. If the Necrons shattered the Void Dragon, Deciever, Outsider, Flayer, and the rest than what the hell is the Deciever going to do?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Stories that blew your mind like Mechanicus and Nightbringer have been retconned and the Gods are depowered.


We've been through this before, but the plots of _Nightbringer_ and _Mechanicus_ are not really effected at all by the new lore. The entities in both those novels are never explicitly stated to be a C'tan, so the fact that we now know both those entities were actually C'tan shards does not really matter. Both of the novels havn't been retconned, an entity known as the Dragon of Mars still resides under the Noctis Labyrinthus and the Ultramarines/Dark Eldar still released/disturbed an entity on Pavonis. Therefore they havn't been retconned.



Deadeye776 said:


> So how am I supposed to look at them as a valid threat. The poll now reflect more and more people who've really investigated what those of us who orignally debated on this thread.


The majority are still in favour of the new lore, but obviously this poll isn't exactly conclusive. Besides that the poll only includes options of either _love_ or _hate_, there is no moderate option. 



Deadeye776 said:


> I promise you that Chaos is next. We'll see how accepting you are when the Kharn defeats Angron and beheads Khorne to become the new blood god.


Chaos will *not* be next. It is generally believed that the C'tan were removed as the near-omnipotent beings they were because it was decided that the spotlight needed to be placed back on Chaos as being the primary antagonist of the setting.

There was also the table-top reasons: the stat-lines for the C'tan hardly reflected their power in the lore.

The Necrons are still an incredible threat to the established powers of the galaxy, if the Dynasties and Tomb Worlds are able to unite then there is a strong possibility of them once again dominating the galactic-scene.


----------



## Serpion5

Part of me wants to lock this thread. I keep hoping it will simply pass away peacefully, but somebody always returns to stir the pot again. And those somebodies are usually the same two or three posters. 

By all means, keep posting though. Go on. 

Tell me more about how a being on Mars with near unlimited power isn't a threat to the galaxy anymore. 

Tell me more about how a god shard orchestrating the Gothic War isn't a valid threat. 

Tell me more about how a Nightbringer shard who knows its primary weapon is in human hands won't be a threat in the forseeable future. And that its current location tying in with an Eldar prophecy of doom is just coincidence. 

Tell me more about how the Emperor defeating a Full Star God makes more sense than Him defeating a shard of the Dragon's mind.

Tell me about how an insane Shard whose return has the Eldar afraid isn't scary at all. 


And tell me that the necrons being in control of potentially hundreds of such beings doesn't equate to a potentially galaxy changing shitstorm for everyone, themselves included? 

Because, honestly, I don't see it? :dunno: :search: :crazy:


----------



## tabbytomo

Serpion5 said:


> Part of me wants to lock this thread. I keep hoping it will simply pass away peacefully, but somebody always returns to stir the pot again. And those somebodies are usually the same two or three posters.
> 
> By all means, keep posting though. Go on.
> 
> Tell me more about how a being on Mars with near unlimited power isn't a threat to the galaxy anymore.
> 
> Tell me more about how a god shard orchestrating the Gothic War isn't a valid threat.
> 
> Tell me more about how a Nightbringer shard who knows its primary weapon is in human hands won't be a threat in the forseeable future. And that its current location tying in with an Eldar prophecy of doom is just coincidence.
> 
> Tell me more about how the Emperor defeating a Full Star God makes more sense than Him defeating a shard of the Dragon's mind.
> 
> Tell me about how an insane Shard whose return has the Eldar afraid isn't scary at all.
> 
> 
> And tell me that the necrons being in control of potentially hundreds of such beings doesn't equate to a potentially galaxy changing shitstorm for everyone, themselves included?
> 
> Because, honestly, I don't see it? :dunno: :search: :crazy:


lol, excellent post. i wish i could contribute on the back of that, but someone with some real answers is going to have to reply to that.


----------



## SoulGazer

Serpion5 said:


> Part of me wants to lock this thread. I keep hoping it will simply pass away peacefully, but somebody always returns to stir the pot again.


Speaking of stirring the pot. :rofl:


----------



## Xisor

Deadeye776 said:


> First of all the C'tan I think I care the LEAST about the Deciever. He seems to have very mortal aims of power and rule which can be reasoned with therefore bringing them back to the mundane threat level. The Nightbringer, Outsider, and Void Dragon represent concepts that cannot be reasoned with. They want nothing but to perpetuate what they are. In that they are like the Chaos Gods and Tyranids. The Deciever I see more of a Cegorach role of a lurker and overall coward. Tricksters will never rule empires for good reasons. No pantheon I'm aware of has ever been effectively ruled by a trickster god. If the Necrons shattered the Void Dragon, Deciever, Outsider, Flayer, and the rest than what the hell is the Deciever going to do?


Not be driven insane by sharding? Be still... competent? Coordinated? Even as shards. Wilful & directed, even if still incomprehensibly vast (we see him as a trickster, he's actually coordinating on a scale far beyond mortality?)

I can't find the 'writeoff' of the Deceiver and Cegorach as holding much weight. Look at the Eldar pantheon: Khaine sharded and shattered, Cegorach... intact.

He's the ruler of the Eldar Pantheon by defeault. He's the only one left intact on a godly level.


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> Part of me wants to lock this thread. I keep hoping it will simply pass away peacefully, but somebody always returns to stir the pot again. And those somebodies are usually the same two or three posters.
> 
> By all means, keep posting though. Go on.
> 
> Tell me more about how a being on Mars with near unlimited power isn't a threat to the galaxy anymore.
> 
> Before the only reason he was defeated was because of starvation. Like a weak polar bear that can't find any food. Now there is a legit technology to defeat the Dragon and his kin. Near unlimited is the same as saying almost undefeatable. Both still have an avenue of it losing again and again in battle. There are no such avenues for the Tyanids and Chaos except for mass suicide or....mass suicide.
> 
> Tell me more about how a god shard orchestrating the Gothic War isn't a valid threat.
> 
> Not that impressive seeing as how normal humans of rank and power have done the same along with eldar Farseer igniting the war for Armageddon. Goge Vandire, rogue Inquisitors, Eldrad Ulthran, I can go on.
> 
> Tell me more about how a Nightbringer shard who knows its primary weapon is in human hands won't be a threat in the forseeable future. And that its current location tying in with an Eldar prophecy of doom is just coincidence.
> 
> He was defeated by mortals once, why not again? They Imperium's got a great track record against things like that. I'm sure the fact that his shards can possibly be utilized against it should also be an avenue for defeat. His shards are not under his control. While he may weild a lot of power, any being that can get and utilize one of his shards may weild that power too. Oh and since the BA and Necrons have worked together under a dire situation, I think the Nightbringer returning would equal that union happening again. Now that the Necrons are rational and all.
> 
> Tell me more about how the Emperor defeating a Full Star God makes more sense than Him defeating a shard of the Dragon's mind.
> 
> Is that a dig at the Emperor or the Dragon? Well seeing as how at no point in the new fluff did the C'tan really "rule" over the Necrons I don't see how either would really matter. Originally it was said it was the most powerful being in the physical universe. Not really possible with the new fluff for them to be that powerful originally. They allied with the Necrons according to Ward to defeat the Old Ones since neither could do it. Originally it was the Necrons begging for help and seeing the C'tan as the only being who could get it done. Kind of puts a new spin on it.
> 
> Tell me about how an insane Shard whose return has the Eldar afraid isn't scary at all.
> 
> Let's be honest bro, what the hell doesn't have the eldar scared in this universe? I'll make a list in case you need it: Death, Slaanesh, C'tan, Tyranids, Human idiocy, Their past, Dark eldar, Chaos incursions, impotency, extinction, the future, and that's just off the top of my head.
> 
> 
> And tell me that the necrons being in control of potentially hundreds of such beings doesn't equate to a potentially galaxy changing shitstorm for everyone, themselves included?
> 
> Like I said, they pretty much are sitting with the equivalent to the "nukes" of 40k with those shards. I don't see why they haven't wrapped up the universe. Even divided no other force in the known galaxy can equal that kind of power. Goes to the uneven power displays I was referring too. That's too much power for one faction. Also the Gods, if you can still call themselves that, are completely neutered at best but definitely not the threat they once were at the least. You can't honestly tell me their past powerlevels and what they are now are comparable. If the Necrons defeated them using some made up tech at full power, why is it implausible to think the most powerful psyker in the universe could defeat a shard or a full powered one. They can be defeated. It's a precedent. No one or being has ever defeated the Chaos Gods. The C'tan were on that level originally. That's all we are saying.
> 
> It would have been easy to add specialization characters that served the Gods and have personalities as well. Each kingdom could have served a different C'tan trying to restore it's power and their dominance. The tech dominion kingdom of the Void Dragon. The crazed sociopaths of the Night bringers legions. The clandestine forces of the Deciever. You can keep this going. If you enjoy this new fluff then fine, but I'm saying it was basically unnecessary. Unlike the tyranids you can have specilized Necron characters like the Chaos Gods do. It's showing in the poll. When I originally voted I think it was me and like 2 to 4 other people who didn't like it. That's when it first came out. Now look at it. Instead of more going for it, it's come down almost to 50/50.
> 
> Because, honestly, I don't see it? :dunno: :search: :crazy:


 

p.s. Cegorach is hardly the "de-facto ruler" of the Eldar Gods. He lives in fear in the webway. Only the harlequins worship him. You know any stories where they hold him in the same regard as Asuryan or even Khaine? Nope. Like I said, trickster don't become king of the gods. He's hiding and will do so until Slaanesh get's him or is destroyed.


----------



## Deadeye776

Xisor said:


> Not be driven insane by sharding? Be still... competent? Coordinated? Even as shards. Wilful & directed, even if still incomprehensibly vast (we see him as a trickster, he's actually coordinating on a scale far beyond mortality?)
> 
> I can't find the 'writeoff' of the Deceiver and Cegorach as holding much weight. Look at the Eldar pantheon: Khaine sharded and shattered, Cegorach... intact.
> 
> He's the ruler of the Eldar Pantheon by defeault. He's the only one left intact on a godly level.


 
Oh yeah and to add to that, look up exactly how Cegoarach was able to stay "intact." Instead of standing like a man he ran. Khaine battled Slaanesh. If he had defeated the Prince of Pleasure he would have been the King in my opinon if anyone. Watching your god take off like a blonde in a horror movie doesn't really inspire reverence. Even the female gods would be more respected. Isha is Nurgle's prisoner and she does more for the Eldar from Nurgles garden. He may be intact, but to the Eldar in general his existence does absolutely nothing for them. If it wasn't for the Black Library and the Harlequins he'd be obsolete.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Cegorach...He lives in fear in the webway.


Why do you think he endures in fear?



Deadeye776 said:


> Instead of standing like a man he ran.


He wouldn't be the Laughing God if he'd faced Slaanesh. He survived because the _"ideas and values"_ of the Eldar psyche that he represented distanced him enough from the corruption of Slaanesh.



Deadeye776 said:


> Watching your god take off like a blonde in a horror movie doesn't really inspire reverence.


Perhaps not, but watching your god consistently outmaneuver and mock the Doom of the Eldar incarnate, whilst also being able to protect his followers from having their souls devoured would inspire reverence.



Deadeye776 said:


> Even the female gods would be more respected. Isha is Nurgle's prisoner and she does more for the Eldar from Nurgles garden. He may be intact, but to the Eldar in general his existence does absolutely nothing for them. If it wasn't for the Black Library and the Harlequins he'd be obsolete.


In fact you could turn it around and argue the exact opposite; that Cegorach and the Harlequins are the only hope for the Eldar race. The Craftworld Eldar attempt to ignore the legacy of the Fall and to maintain the status quo with the rigid path system, the Exodites bury their head in the sand and attempt to turn back the clock by living the lives they believed their pre-hedonistic ancestors did, whilst the Dark Kin attempt to appease the legacy of the Fall by ignoring the lessons of the past and sustaining their existence on a day-to-day basis by appeasing Slaanesh.

But the Fall cannot be ignored, appeased or turned back. That's where the Harlequins come in; as _Codex: Dark Eldar_ tells us "they alone know the secret of how to deny Slaanesh and keep their souls burning bright" and considering they have "loyalty... to the Eldar race as a whole, and they would see it restored" it could be argued that they (and by extension Cegorach) represent the future of the Eldar race.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Serpion5 said:


> Part of me wants to lock this thread. I keep hoping it will simply pass away peacefully, but somebody always returns to stir the pot again. And those somebodies are usually the same two or three posters.
> 
> By all means, keep posting though. Go on.
> 
> Tell me more about how a being on Mars with near unlimited power isn't a threat to the galaxy anymore.
> 
> Tell me more about how a god shard orchestrating the Gothic War isn't a valid threat.
> 
> Tell me more about how a Nightbringer shard who knows its primary weapon is in human hands won't be a threat in the forseeable future. And that its current location tying in with an Eldar prophecy of doom is just coincidence.
> 
> Tell me more about how the Emperor defeating a Full Star God makes more sense than Him defeating a shard of the Dragon's mind.
> 
> Tell me about how an insane Shard whose return has the Eldar afraid isn't scary at all.
> 
> 
> And tell me that the necrons being in control of potentially hundreds of such beings doesn't equate to a potentially galaxy changing shitstorm for everyone, themselves included?
> 
> Because, honestly, I don't see it? :dunno: :search: :crazy:



everyone knows your a shard groupie and cant be reasoned with but to put it simply how can any being be a god if it can be overpowered by it slave minions and whatever power that remains can be harnessed for their own use. 

fair enough they wanted to depower the ctan because some mindless people cant accept gods roaming the galaxy and not being in full control of everything but the fact remains when dealing with gods and they get owned by their own creations, hows that godly thus begging the question whats the point of them in the first place if they dont rule over their own subjects.

would it make sense to you if say doombreed somehow gained dominance over khorne and made him do his bidding for him? its exactly the same situation and it sounds ridiculous. 

im starting to think that you might actually be matt ward!!!


----------



## Serpion5

Deadeye, the c'tan cannot be destroyed by any simple or conventional means. In the old lore, only another c'tan ever succeeded in killing a c'tan. In the new lore, only one was destroyed and that was a fluke on the necron's part. The rest were shattered and captured by means we cannot understand, technology that only came to the necrons via the knowledge that the c'tan themselves shared in their arrogance. 

The reason they don't simply unleash these creatures to do their bidding is because the c'tan shards are in possession of near unlimited power, and should one of them rebel or gain some small recollection of what has happened, it presents a huge risk on the necron's part. Also, to simply destroy it's necrodermic shell is essentially to set it free. To scatter it's essence to the cosmic winds where it is once more beyond the necron's immediate reach. That is why. And I'm pretty sure I've said this at least twice before. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> everyone knows your a shard groupie and cant be reasoned with but to put it simply how can any being be a god if it can be overpowered by it slave minions and whatever power that remains can be harnessed for their own use.


In order to better facilitate the defeat of the Old Ones, the c'tan shared knowledge of the universe with the necrons. Their technology is as powerful as it is now only because the c'tan empowered them. That is how. 



> fair enough they wanted to depower the ctan because some mindless people cant accept gods roaming the galaxy and not being in full control of everything but the fact remains when dealing with gods and they get owned by their own creations, hows that godly thus begging the question whats the point of them in the first place if they dont rule over their own subjects.


Even daemons have the potential to overthrow their gods. It is for this reason that Tzeentch purposely engineers the defeat of Lords of Change before they can challenge him. It is for this same reason he tasked the bickering Blue Scribes to gather the pieces of his staff rather than a more capable servant. 

The concept of "mortals" defeating "gods" is not new or original to the necrons. It has been done before and it has been explained in a justifiable sense. Being a god does not equal automatic win, because if it did there would be no wars of this nature. There would simply be the gods and those they constantly step on. 



> would it make sense to you if say doombreed somehow gained dominance over khorne and made him do his bidding for him? its exactly the same situation and it sounds ridiculous.


Doombreed is an ill example, primarily because we know too little about him to even guess whether he'd attempt to overthrow Khorne in the first place. I'll refer you to my Tzeentch example above, and simply repeat that it is possible, however unlikely. 



> im starting to think that you might actually be matt ward!!!


Hmm, because I'm sure that Matt Ward would spend all of his free time fretting over a few forum members who don't like his lore. :shout: 

But hey, we all know you're a c'tan groupie who can't see reason.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

your clutching at straws there pal. why would a god give the minions the power to destroy them. by all means give them powers to help the cause but power to actually destroy or enslave them?! doesnt really make sense does it! alot like the ctan fluff itself.

explain how a god has been defeated by its minions before the ctan? even if some lame story is avaliable the point of a god getting owed by a minion either makes the minion a god or the god wasnt much of a god in the first place. having a god defeated by a simple minion doesnt make any sense in any kind of way. it strikes me as a rush job in the case of the ctan fluff and is open to so many plot holes its more leaky than the british water system.

how is dooombreed a bad example by the way? he is one of khornes top daemons so potentially has a great chance out of a few at defeating khorne if you wanted to pick any. but the point remains its seems dumb if one of his top daemons could enslave/destroy him. a god as mighty as khorne cant be so mighty if the help can take over so the same should be said about a ctan god unless they arent as godly as what people might think.

nice deflection at the end there serpion but if your not matt ward you must be his manager or something with the protective mentality you have over the ctan stuff. but no im not a ctan groupie but if fluff gets changed and its as dumb as spit but certian people keep going on about how great it is, being this a forum im gonna view my opinion just like people do theres.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Doombreed and actually any demons that are spawned by them (including demon princes) are naught but clones that personify their patron gods albeit in a weaker form, the gods know their true names and they are nothing but a fraction of their power given a degree of autonomy.

Even the fallen primarchs, like Angron loose every aspect of their "self" that dosent have anything to do with his patron gods aspect of chaos i.e. all he now is is wrath incarnate.

Also as far as i remember Doombreed did nothing but put a dent in Khrones armour and tzeentch....is just tzeentch, obviously he would try and betray everything.

the ctan could have been tricked into splitting their forms because they dont know much about the material/mortal way of thinking, unlike the gods who are what mortals think and so, you could say you couldn't trick them into subservience because they know every underhanded trick etc.......


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> Deadeye, the c'tan cannot be destroyed by any simple or conventional means. In the old lore, only another c'tan ever succeeded in killing a c'tan. In the new lore, only one was destroyed and that was a fluke on the necron's part. The rest were shattered and captured by means we cannot understand, technology that only came to the necrons via the knowledge that the c'tan themselves shared in their arrogance.
> 
> Seemed pretty conventional and mundane way to kill a materim god. I don't see where they said it was a fluke. The weapon did exactly what it was supposed to do. Where does it say that the technology to destroy them came from the C'tan?
> 
> The reason they don't simply unleash these creatures to do their bidding is because the c'tan shards are in possession of near unlimited power, and should one of them rebel or gain some small recollection of what has happened, it presents a huge risk on the necron's part. Also, to simply destroy it's necrodermic shell is essentially to set it free. To scatter it's essence to the cosmic winds where it is once more beyond the necron's immediate reach. That is why. And I'm pretty sure I've said this at least twice before.
> 
> ok.
> 
> In order to better facilitate the defeat of the Old Ones, the c'tan shared knowledge of the universe with the necrons. Their technology is as powerful as it is now only because the c'tan empowered them. That is how.
> 
> Again, I didn't read the part where the C'tan gave the necrons the knowledge of weapons that could be used against them. If that's true than you can also blame Matt Ward for making the C'tan inept. Creatures that live and exist off energy wouldn't be able to tell a weapon of their OWN design could be used against them? They just trusted the Necrons to play nice? This is ridiculous. Predatory primordial intelligences got duped into giving away tech that specifically could destroy them? How would you feel if this story was about Chaos?
> 
> Even daemons have the potential to overthrow their gods. It is for this reason that Tzeentch purposely engineers the defeat of Lords of Change before they can challenge him. It is for this same reason he tasked the bickering Blue Scribes to gather the pieces of his staff rather than a more capable servant.
> 
> Your reaching for straws here. NO deamon has even come close to legitimately challenging one of the 4. Skarbrand gave the shot he threw at Khorne everything he had and only opened up a miniscule ***** in his armor. At the time he was the most powerful bloodthirster ever created.Even the Gods aren't stupid enough to make a daemon that powerful and they are all legitimately insane. So the C'tan just walked right into that one right? Please.
> 
> The concept of "mortals" defeating "gods" is not new or original to the necrons. It has been done before and it has been explained in a justifiable sense. Being a god does not equal automatic win, because if it did there would be no wars of this nature. There would simply be the gods and those they constantly step on.
> 
> Really? Horus only challenged the Emperor when he was empowered by all 4 chaos gods and still the Big E was holding back. Eldanesh challenged Khaine with a sword made by Vaul and still lost to him. Skarbrand (not a mortal) was owned by Khorne for challenging him. The Nightbringer before this b.s. was made was only ever defeated by Khaine and that was a pyrrhic victory since he was infected by it, interestingly the Nightbringer reformed after he was defeated by a god but his own servants were to much for him. Khaine was shattered by Slaanesh. So I've done most of the "deity" battles and no Mortal has taken out a legitimate god, ever. Even Draigo has only gone so far as vandalism and beating up on daemons. Before this fluff, no God had ever lost to anything less than another god and the fluff was just fine.
> 
> 
> Doombreed is an ill example, primarily because we know too little about him to even guess whether he'd attempt to overthrow Khorne in the first place. I'll refer you to my Tzeentch example above, and simply repeat that it is possible, however unlikely.
> 
> Doombreed would be brutalized by Khorne like a 155 pound inmate running into big 300 pound Bubba in the prison shower. Anyone on this board that thinks different is trolling or mentally handicapped. I seem to remember something to. The novel Grey Knights, Ghargatoluth is describing his last encounter in Tzeetnch's presences. It was said out of all the greater daemons and deamon princes only he could withstand the words of Tzeentch as all other were destroyed at his words. I'll say this again: The freaking words of Tzeentch could only be heard by one of the most powerful daemons he'd ever created, all other were destroyed. Tzeentch use to be the most powerful, until the other gods fought and brought him down. Slaanesh was defeated by Nurgle and Khorne. They've only ever been defeated by each other, kinda like the C'tan.
> 
> Hmm, because I'm sure that Matt Ward would spend all of his free time fretting over a few forum members who don't like his lore. :shout:
> 
> You may not know this but more and more people are starting to hate the "marvel hero" direction he's taking the codex's. The shit with Draigo, Ultramarines, and now the C'tan. Soon enough things will grow to represent it with this no longer being a horror story but a super hero setting.
> 
> But hey, we all know you're a c'tan groupie who can't see reason.


The opposite has been said of you, however at least my side represented the only other faction than the tyranids . I see your Necrons now more of a Eldar like race. Whereas before they would have never stuped to working with humans now they know it's their only chance. They wanna live and fear things like tyranids. Pretty sad how far they've fallen. Enjoy watching them shit themselves when the full tyranid hive fleet comes to bear with Chaos on the other side. Because of this fluff they could have been the other faction. Now? They right up their with the Eldar on the endangered species list.


----------



## Iron Angel

Except the Deceiver is the sneakiest motherfuck of all. He and Tzeentch measure penises daily for who is the trickiest bastard around. Or at least thats how it used to be anyway. I think the Deceiver would have seen it coming which is why I think the whole thing was done deliberately and engineered by the Deceiver to serve some goal that would benefit him.


----------



## Deadeye776

Iron Angel said:


> Except the Deceiver is the sneakiest motherfuck of all. He and Tzeentch measure penises daily for who is the trickiest bastard around. Or at least thats how it used to be anyway. I think the Deceiver would have seen it coming which is why I think the whole thing was done deliberately and engineered by the Deceiver to serve some goal that would benefit him.


 


I think your reaching here. Never have I read a story that put the Decievre any where near the Level Tzeentch plays at. Tzeentch is manipulating two realms of reality. The Deiciever is trying to hold off his minions and plot his return by your calculations. The fact that he wasn't smart enought to see an enslaved race of immortals might one day turn on him if given the means takes him out of Tzeentch's realm. Tzeentch doesn't trust anyone and for good reason. The Deciever and the C'tan in general have been taken out of that realm by Matt Ward.


----------



## Iron Angel

Or that he knew it would happen, and allowed it for his own purposes, such as depowering the other C'tan so he could defeat them and become the only C'tan. Remember, the Deceiver is one of the weakest C'tan, but if everyone is a shard, he has a much better shot at overpowering them- Especially if he is several shards combined, and his opponent is only a single shard. It would take time to gobble up every shard, but hey, time is what he has in ample amounts.


----------



## Deadeye776

Iron Angel said:


> Or that he knew it would happen, and allowed it for his own purposes, such as depowering the other C'tan so he could defeat them and become the only C'tan. Remember, the Deceiver is one of the weakest C'tan, but if everyone is a shard, he has a much better shot at overpowering them- Especially if he is several shards combined, and his opponent is only a single shard. It would take time to gobble up every shard, but hey, time is what he has in ample amounts.


 

At full power with the rest he couldn't stop the Necrons. Now as a fraction of his sum total he's going to what? Talk them into submission? What is he to rule by the way? It's like Cegorach, I don't see the Necrons as they are now ever dominating the universe unless they can utilize the shards. He might be able too. Fan fiction isn't reality. If he was really "manipulating them" as you say then this would have been the best play. Tell the Silent King before he ascertains it on his own that the C'tan wish to enslave him and his people. Assure him you are their only salvation and then given them the technology that can shatter and enslave the C'tan within the shards.As a back up make your energy signiture immune to imprisonment by the weapon. By this I mean if it's used on you then you won't be trapped but will go back to energy form and can get a new necrodermis. After they finish the C'tan use your knwoledge to subtely lure them into a sense of security over centuries and finally complete the plan of enslavement. 

Being sharded and leaving to chance the possiblity of a resurrection and reunion with your fragments is a reckless moron's gambit. Anything could happen. That's why they call Tzeentch the Architect of Fate. He constructs his own destiny and that of everyone touched by the Ruinous Powers.


----------



## Iron Angel

Unless he knew the Silent King wouldn't buy it.

1 nightbringer versus 1 deceiver = dead deceiver

1 nightbringer shard versus 6 deceiver shards = dead nightbringer

Thats the math here. Its the only way to make the new fluff make any sense, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Unknown Primarch said:


> your clutching at straws there pal. why would a god give the minions the power to destroy them. by all means give them powers to help the cause but power to actually destroy or enslave them?! doesnt really make sense does it! alot like the ctan fluff itself.


You make it sound like the C'tan bestowed the Necrons with a special gun that was able to destroy them and said _"hey, look after this."_ That was not the case at all.

When the Necrontyr became the Necrons and renewed the _War in Heaven_ they were bestowed with great technologies and knowledge by their C'tan allies. It is only logical to assume that the Necrons used some of this knowledge to utilise the "unimaginable energies of the living universe" against the C'tan. The Necrons utilised this technology for their own means, the C'tan were "spent from hard-fought victory" and were arrogant enough to not realise the danger posed by their supposed-allies. That's how the Necrons were able to shatter them, the damage and casualties the Necrons suffered in the process should also not be overlooked. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> explain how a god has been defeated by its minions before the ctan?


Gods being killed/defeated/enslaved by mortals is actually quite a prominent theme in mythology.

But if you're talking strictly in terms of 40k it depends how you look at it. The Eldar indirectly destroyed their own pantheon of gods by birthing Slaanesh. The God-Emperor was laid low and endures as a corpse because of his son Horus. But no, there isn't that many obvious precedents available within 40k lore, but why does that matter?



Unknown Primarch said:


> the point of a god getting owed by a minion either makes the minion a god or the god wasnt much of a god in the first place. having a god defeated by a simple minion doesnt make any sense in any kind of way. it strikes me as a rush job in the case of the ctan fluff and is open to so many plot holes its more leaky than the british water system.


Why doesn't it make sense? "god" (especially in 40k) is an highly ambiguous term, it would do you good to remember that. In 40k, gods are not invincible or omnipotent and can be defeated.



Unknown Primarch said:


> how is dooombreed a bad example by the way? he is one of khornes top daemons so potentially has a great chance out of a few at defeating khorne if you wanted to pick any. but the point remains its seems dumb if one of his top daemons could enslave/destroy him. a god as mighty as khorne cant be so mighty if the help can take over so the same should be said about a ctan god unless they arent as godly as what people might think.


The Necrons betrayal and shattering of the C'tan cannot be compared to a daemon attempting to overthrow a Chaos God. Daemons are inherently part of the gestalt god itself, with the god being capable of reclaiming the power and independence it has given the daemon at any time. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> nice deflection at the end there serpion but if your not matt ward you must be his manager or something with the protective mentality you have over the ctan stuff.


I for one am not the biggest fan of the new C'tan lore, but I will defend to the hilt its plausibility in the face of unreasoned contempt.



Deadeye776 said:


> I see your Necrons now more of a Eldar like race. Whereas before they would have never stuped to working with humans now they know it's their only chance. They wanna live and fear things like tyranids. Pretty sad how far they've fallen. Enjoy watching them shit themselves when the full tyranid hive fleet comes to bear with Chaos on the other side. Because of this fluff they could have been the other faction. Now? They right up their with the Eldar on the endangered species list.


Thats ridiculous. The Necrons are no way near the level that the Eldar exist on, the threat posed by the Necrons hasn't really changed with the new lore. If the dynasties unite, they possess the ability to rule the galaxy - even in the face of the Tyranid incursions.

Also, _@Deadeye_: could you reply like everyone else using seperate quotations please? Otherwise it makes it so much more difficult for anyone replying to your posts.


----------



## Deadeye776

haahhahahahhaaha. Really? They went from being primoridal puppet masters who controlled an undead army of robotic immortals to an inept imprisoned shadow of their former selves. The Necrons are now approachable and will, like the eldar, unite with other forces in the face of death which they now fear. Even the Orks would rather slug it out than unite. Your faction has more in common with the Eldar than ever before. Dead or neutered Gods. A state of diaspora existing throughout their race. The thought that a future might be possible if the can survive the present. Oh and they fear the tyranids enought to unite with the Blood Angels. That's cute.Maybe later we can orgainize a play-date with the Tau.



edit: Your assuming the Night Bringer shard Ventris freed could be defeated by the Deciever. Since we don't know individually the "shard math" of how many you need to do what, your guessing Iron Angel.


----------



## Iron Angel

Really all it is is a change of management. Instead of the C'tan being in charge, the Necrons themselves are now in charge. The Eldar still revere and worship their dead and dying pantheon. The Necrons have cast theirs down and climbed atop their corpses.

While I'm a big fan of the old fluff, saying the Necrons are now a cowering and feeble race like the candy-ass Space Elves is definitely a reach. Matt Ward writes horrible fluff, that's been nailed down already. But nowhere do I get the impression that Necrons are now powerless and futile. They are still immortal. They are still the masters of the material universe. They are still the most ass-kicking skeleton robot motherfuckers around. They just went from being something unique and mysterious to Space Tomb Kings, which I believe is my and everyone else's main issue.


----------



## ckcrawford

Is it just me or does it make sense that the C'tan who roam around sucking on stars would know anything about technology? C'tan are so powerful they have no use for technology. Knowledge? This is so confusing, it really doesn't make any sense.

Pretty much it's being said that C'tan SOMEHOW have knowledge about powers that are more powerful than them... which they don't even use... and gave them to the unlimited numbering Necrons... powerful enough to shard them and chain them up in box's but not kill them. 

I think its pretty obvious, the reason why the fall of the C'tan wasn't elaborated is pretty obvious... Matt Ward did write the reason and everyone reviewing it starred at them with their eye's and mouth's open think wtf is this dude thinking. 

There just isn't any good elaboration. And even if they did, it would be just stupid. I think it's interesting that at least half the people don't think its fucking crazy that Matt Ward turned the C'tan into fucking pokemon. What the heck.


----------



## Iron Angel

I think Crawford pretty much hit the nail on the head.


----------



## ckcrawford

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the Necrons getting a jump in lore. More about the Dynasties and stuff. I fricken bought this expensive codex hoping to get something interesting. But from all that time all the Necron players have been waiting for a new codex... Are they just finally happy it came out? Or are they really enjoying this lore? If they enjoy parts of it then I think that's totally honest. But I just can't believe they would like the C'tan lore. 

It's just crap. Because C'tan lore does effect other part's (races and other stuff) of the 40k world, and Matt Ward should have known better than to just fuck everything right up.


----------



## Iron Angel

>matt ward
>not fuck everything up

invalid claim


----------



## ckcrawford

Graham McNeil Interview

Go to 1:19. Some of his insite. "Its all in the toys"


----------



## Serpion5

Forum member or not, personal attacks against individuals or groups are not tolerated on Heresy. I have issued this warning before. This debate is possible without resorting to that low tactic. 

As such, next person to do it (again) will be taking a break from the boards.


Deadeye; Necrons could be permanently killed before. Nothing in this regard has changed. They knew the concept of fear before. Again, nothing has changed. They "feel" only vague memories of what real emotions are. No change. The difference is only that the new lore makes this far more prominent. Pre 5th ed examples could be found in the Fall of Medusa Campaign and the book _Xenology_. 

Unknown primarch, I was referring to mythologies outside 40k for my examples of mortals defeating gods. 

Nothing else is really worth repeating at this stage.


----------



## ckcrawford

Serpion5 said:


> Forum member or not, personal attacks against individuals or groups are not tolerated on Heresy. I have issued this warning before. This debate is possible without resorting to that low tactic.
> 
> As such, next person to do it (again) will be taking a break from the boards.


What are you referring too? Is what I just said a couple of posts ago really a "personal attack?"


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Serpion5 said:


> Forum member or not, personal attacks against individuals or groups are not tolerated on Heresy. I have issued this warning before. This debate is possible without resorting to that low tactic.
> 
> As such, next person to do it (again) will be taking a break from the boards.
> 
> 
> Deadeye; Necrons could be permanently killed before. Nothing in this regard has changed. They knew the concept of fear before. Again, nothing has changed. They "feel" only vague memories of what real emotions are. No change. The difference is only that the new lore makes this far more prominent. Pre 5th ed examples could be found in the Fall of Medusa Campaign and the book _Xenology_.
> 
> Unknown primarch, I was referring to mythologies outside 40k for my examples of mortals defeating gods.
> 
> Nothing else is really worth repeating at this stage.



I enjoy cake and pie. And having my posts edited for attacking staff members and posting links to other sites.


----------



## Iron Angel

Serp, really, are you upset someone said matt ward wrote terrible fluff? Its basically an established fact. It gets called out a dozen times a day. Calm down.


----------



## Xisor

To be honest, I'm mighty happy with Serp's approach here. The relentless, senseless derision of Matthew Ward as the lone destroyer of everything we know and love as a _unanimous fact_ is pretty damn irritating, in my eyes.

Mainly because I'm actually quite fond of the Necron Codex and see it as a vast improvement over other stuff. Not perfect by any means, but rich & interesting. The relentless invective offered against him is... frankly disturbing.

To that end: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen

Muse at your own leisure.


----------



## SoulGazer

Xisor said:


> To that end: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen
> 
> Muse at your own leisure.


Heh, yeah, GW tends to do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae

Off-topic, I know, but still funny.


----------



## gen.ahab

Unknown Primarch said:


> blah












EDIT: It would actually seem you give an entire paragraph worth of shits. 

Is it just me, or are people starting to take this far too seriously?

I quite like the new fluff. As others have pointed out, it doesn't vastly alter the balance of the universe, I a personally feel that it adds a bit of flavor to the crons. All in all, a good change in my book.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

If the poll is anything to go by, 1.7% of respondents think the new lore is better. Woot!


----------



## Rems

Unknown Primarch said:


> assorted nouns and verbs


I think someone just volunteered for a banning. 

See ya. 

On topic i can certainly see Serp's point. 

The new C'tan fluff has in no way invalidated (most) of the old lore or any of the novels featuring C'tan. Nightbringer, Mechanicum still work. The C'tan shards are still powerful. There are likely shards out there with a mind of their own, you can still have a tomb world led by a C'tan or one who worship C'tan. 

The new fluff is different, not worse. The necrons have arguably grown as a threat now. Are there some things i don't like? Yes, i prefer the old fluff and the old necron theme. However i don't see the need to get all pissy about it and rant again and again. I also like some of the new stuff like the really advanced technology they have now. We've got a proper sci-fi race. 

I too am sick of the relentless Matt Ward bashing. Has he perhaps written some silly things from time to time? Yes he has. However everyone knows what they are by this point and has their own opinion on it. We've heard those opinions, at length. There's no need to bring up how much you hate Matt Ward in every thread relating to him or what he's written again and again.


----------



## Akatsuki13

Here here!

Personally I don't mind Matt Ward's work. Some of it's bad, some of it's okay and some of it is good. And you know what that's how I feel about most Codecs and Armybooks.

Frankly I'm getting stick of the excessive Matt Ward bashing and hatred. It's always the same three or four points out of all that he's written. We get the idea, you don't like those changes. Constantly ranting about it isn't going to change it.


----------



## Gret79

I know that not everyone likes the new necrons fluff, but surely it's better than what it was?

Because they didn't have an awful lot of...well anything. No character, Not enough units. In Dawn of War (pc game) they had to invent extra stuff, like speaking pariah's just to give them something to interact with other races. 

To be honest, nothing much has changed for me. C'tans are still nasty.

I liked the old necron's - emotionless/unfathomable.
But I also like the new necrons and their manipulative ways.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Gret79 said:


> I know that not everyone likes the new necrons fluff, but surely it's better than what it was?
> 
> Because they didn't have an awful lot of...well anything. No character, Not enough units. In Dawn of War (pc game) they had to invent extra stuff, like speaking pariah's just to give them something to interact with other races.
> 
> To be honest, nothing much has changed for me. C'tans are still nasty.
> 
> I liked the old necron's - emotionless/unfathomable.
> But I also like the new necrons and their manipulative ways.


Exactly.

And even if people still prefer the mindless/emotionless Necrons of the old lore the dynasties and example Necron kingdoms given in the codex give enough variation and inspiration to create such Necrons.

Although even in the new lore, the majority of Necrons are still mindless automatons: _"Necron Warriors are in no way autonomous. They are bound entirely to their commander's unyielding will... [are were] stripped... of personality, character and awareness."_ - Necron Warriors being what the common civilians of the Necrontyr became.


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## ckcrawford

I think Black Libary fan base is a legitimate population to work off of. Thats why, if it sounds like I'm bashing Matt Ward, I hope at least I speak for _almost_ half of what people think about Matt Ward. 

If Games Workshop decides to expand to a new direction I hope they do it off arguments like this. The fact is this new direction in fluff is controversal. 

I've mentioned it before, 40k has become more than just a game for little kids to play. Its gone to some successful Video Games, a movie, and a terrific series (Horus Heresy) that has had some of its book become New York Time Best Sellers. Its in this that they have more loyal fan base an legacy. And yet Matt Ward has pushed his ideas to contradict these.

Because we are in the fluff section, I think most of us will agree that the Black Library Authors are the ones that have really contributed its greatest works to Gamesworkshop. Why should they not recieve more credit?

ADB stance is what it is. He said it perfect that basically it just comes with the job (re-doing you work). I respect the guy for not creating conflict with his own community. However, I just can't see how the Authors (the ones we think are pretty conflict ADB, Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett) can really continue to go all out in their writing when they have to write around someone who I believe has too much of an imagination. 

Case and point, (I don't like to look like I'm beating up a dead horse), however, look at the C'tan fluff before Matt Ward... I think it was terrific stuff. Now, its sharded pokemon C'tan. And that's about it. If you look at it as work that took years to create to being what it is. I think its kind of sad.

ADB and his new novel the Emperor's Gift. If we could see his work before the change, how would we compare the two? Something tells me the Emperor's Gift was good enough to do without the change..

Its everything Matt Ward puts his hands on. If we don't talk about it, its not going to change or even give Gamesworkshop and idea of what it's community is thinking.


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## SoulGazer

ckcrawford said:


> Its everything Matt Ward puts his hands on. If we don't talk about it, its not going to change or even give Gamesworkshop and idea of what it's community is thinking.


:goodpost:


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## Sothot

Stop thinking of the C'tan shards as pokemon the Trollcrons use for lulz and try taking them a little more seriously- they are fragments of deities imprisoned beyond this universe in a Hellraiser-esque lament configuration. Since the thread keeps going round and round, i'll say it again; knowing that the Necrons are loathe to release even a fraction of a god shattered into a thousand pieces should speak to the incredible religious terror the C'tan should inspire. The Necron pantheon was sundered and displaced from our universe, however incompletely. If you just look at the tesseract labyrinth part, think "goooo Nightbringer!" and continue your hate on for Mat Ward, you've missed the point.


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## SoulGazer

Sothot said:


> Stop thinking of the C'tan shards as pokemon the Trollcrons use for lulz and try taking them a little more seriously- they are fragments of deities imprisoned beyond this universe in a Hellraiser-esque lament configuration. Since the thread keeps going round and round, i'll say it again; knowing that the Necrons are loathe to release even a fraction of a god shattered into a thousand pieces should speak to the incredible religious terror the C'tan should inspire. The Necron pantheon was sundered and displaced from our universe, however incompletely. If you just look at the tesseract labyrinth part, think "goooo Nightbringer!" and continue your hate on for Mat Ward, you've missed the point.


Hey man, I regularly field 2 C'tan and I love thinking of them as Pokemon. Granted, I am trolling the hell out of people with every silly thing I can(writhing worldscape, Immotekh, tremorcrons, etc.), but why not? It's supposed to be fun, right?

The other problem this presents to the fluff is all this amazing and powerful stuff the Crons have that will never get used because, conveniently enough, the Crons don't want to use them. Mass C'tan shards and the Celestial Orrery, to name a couple, and just think of all the horrifically destructive stuff that more than likely fills Trazyn's museum that he deems as merely "interesting trinkets." I mean, do you think the Crons are ever going to bust out whatever weapon it was they used to shatter the C'tan with? Probably not! They'd be "loathe to unleash its power once again" or something like that. The Newcron fluff loves to go on and on about how advanced and powerful the Necrons are, but at the end of the day, they're still just going to use mass Warriors with gauss flayers and therefore never really beat anything on a galactic scale, especially not Chaos! It's a real pity.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, their points about the fluff are fine, and it's not all bad. I'm just saying that it's silly to say how much stuff the Crons have that would make them auto-win and then say how they just don't want to use any of it. Why bother describing it in the first place?


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## Iron Angel

The celestial orrerry is one of those things that has me scratching my head. Why don't they just blow up terra with it? Wouldn't tat solve almost all of their problems? Emperor dies, humanity collapses inwards, everyone flips out and galactic war like never before explodes, and the Necrons can just mop up.


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## SoulGazer

Iron Angel said:


> The celestial orrerry is one of those things that has me scratching my head. Why don't they just blow up terra with it? Wouldn't tat solve almost all of their problems? Emperor dies, humanity collapses inwards, everyone flips out and galactic war like never before explodes, and the Necrons can just mop up.


My point exactly. Or they could blow up stars in the Eye of Terror(assuming that works), or maybe all the stars with Hive Fleets near them. Problem solved. I mean, you might as well if you're going to lose the galaxy to Chaos or the Nids eventually anyways. But yeah, if Humanity kills itself, Chaos goes with it, and then all that's left to worry about are the Nids. And the Orks, I guess, they'd do some fun stuff with less and less to stand against them.


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## Iron Angel

Orks generally use salvaged tech. No more humans, no more salvage, no more going into space.


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## SoulGazer

Iron Angel said:


> Orks generally use salvaged tech. No more humans, no more salvage, no more going into space.


Ehh, there is a LOT of junk floating around in space and on dead, non-tomb worlds. I think the Orks have enough stuff to keep them going for a long while, not to mention whatever space hulks might suddenly show up. They can also loot Necron tech, can't they?


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## Iron Angel

That usually ends pretty badly for them.


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## SoulGazer

Iron Angel said:


> That usually ends pretty badly for them.


They'll keep trying, like bees to flowers. Good way to blow chunks of them up at a time then, I guess. The Orks have no equivalent to Admiral Akbar, so they'll keep falling for it every time. opcorn:


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## nevynxxx

That's the schism of fiction for a game though isn't it? For the fiction to be interesting, there cannot be balance, you need threat. For the game to be fun, there *must* be balance.


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## SoulGazer

nevynxxx said:


> That's the schism of fiction for a game though isn't it? For the fiction to be interesting, there cannot be balance, you need threat. For the game to be fun, there *must* be balance.


So then don't give one race the implied ability to destroy the entire galaxy in a matter of seconds? Don't write that a race of immortal robots can kill and enslave gods, and that said enslaved gods have "nearly unlimited" power but can be defeated by bolters anyways? Other races have interesting fluff without giving them a dozen "I win" buttons that they'll never use. It's just silly.


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## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> Forum member or not, personal attacks against individuals or groups are not tolerated on Heresy. I have issued this warning before. This debate is possible without resorting to that low tactic.
> 
> As such, next person to do it (again) will be taking a break from the boards.
> 
> 
> Deadeye; Necrons could be permanently killed before. Nothing in this regard has changed. They knew the concept of fear before. Again, nothing has changed. They "feel" only vague memories of what real emotions are. No change. The difference is only that the new lore makes this far more prominent. Pre 5th ed examples could be found in the Fall of Medusa Campaign and the book _Xenology_.
> 
> Unknown primarch, I was referring to mythologies outside 40k for my examples of mortals defeating gods.
> 
> Nothing else is really worth repeating at this stage.


 


The Necrontyr knew those. When the Necrons woke up they were the equivalent to the Terminator series. When the Necron's first came out, you tell me if you thought they would ally with an Astartes chapter for the purpose of survival.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS

I just think its childish to have the pokemon C'tan. I don't understand how it could be just said that the Necrons have the power to pretty much break apart Gods but haven't obliterated every other race in 40k.


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## nevynxxx

SoulGazer said:


> So then don't give one race the implied ability to destroy the entire galaxy in a matter of seconds? Don't write that a race of immortal robots can kill and enslave gods, and that said enslaved gods have "nearly unlimited" power but can be defeated by bolters anyways? Other races have interesting fluff without giving them a dozen "I win" buttons that they'll never use. It's just silly.


I agree.

That said, there's nothing to say that there aren't reasons in the fluff why those weapons can't be used, and that we just haven't seen that fluff yet. Leaving big questions is also good for fluff


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## SoulGazer

The whole issue is GW trying to take out the C'tan's power in respect to Chaos while also trying to keep the Necrons high on the "scary evil thing that is still a galactic threat" scale. Unfortunately, in doing so they just made the whole thing silly by letting you know that the Necrons are all damaged in some way. This is a theme I noticed with both the Crons and the C'tan. The Overlords all have some sort of problem that renders them unable to function properly(letting dangerous enemies go, dementia, Alzheimer's, kleptomania), and the C'tan shards just "don't remember" how powerful they are. So... the entire race has brain damage. Or some sort of personality disorder. A few screws loose, etc. I just... there's no threat here. GW put in the "get out of logic free" card to explain why a race of immortal robots with technology and abilities that dwarf literally everything else in 40k can get beat by... literally everything else in 40k.

I understand the need for balance, just don't make an invincible, inevitable threat and then decide to retcon them later into an army of retirement home tenants.

Ok I'm done raging. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Eldar god/C'tan debates. :read:


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## Deadeye776

NightBringer I choose youuuuu!!!!!!!!!! (hurles shard at the tyranids)


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## Sothot

The Celestial Orrery is far from an auto win button... It is guarded by Necrons who consider themselves keepers of the galaxy, and who refuse to allow it to be used with such reckless and wild abandon. Careful consideration (and in Necron terms, this is certainly decades if not centuries of debate) is put into the pruning of each star. 
As far as C'tan shattering weapons of unstoppable power and other perceived "gg guys" auto wins... "the awakening has been far from precise" and leaves much wanting for the Necrons to reestablish their dominance. In the War in Heaven, they were at their pinnacle power. Now, the 41st mIllennium sees a shadow of the Necron Empire emerging, and it certainly a humbling experience for a race with ten times the hubris of the Eldar.


----------



## Deadeye776

SoulGazer said:


> The whole issue is GW trying to take out the C'tan's power in respect to Chaos while also trying to keep the Necrons high on the "scary evil thing that is still a galactic threat" scale. Unfortunately, in doing so they just made the whole thing silly by letting you know that the Necrons are all damaged in some way. This is a theme I noticed with both the Crons and the C'tan. The Overlords all have some sort of problem that renders them unable to function properly(letting dangerous enemies go, dementia, Alzheimer's, kleptomania), and the C'tan shards just "don't remember" how powerful they are. So... the entire race has brain damage. Or some sort of personality disorder. A few screws loose, etc. I just... there's no threat here. GW put in the "get out of logic free" card to explain why a race of immortal robots with technology and abilities that dwarf literally everything else in 40k can get beat by... literally everything else in 40k.
> 
> I understand the need for balance, just don't make an invincible, inevitable threat and then decide to retcon them later into an army of retirement home tenants.
> 
> Ok I'm done raging. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Eldar god/C'tan debates. :read:


 


Thank you. This has been my issue. The only way to make this crap believable was to make the entire Necron race afflicted with bs. I said before if they could take out the C'tan then nothing, even fractured, should stand against them. That kind of tech NO ONE in the galaxy has. Knowing this they've made the entire faction watered down to show why a race of immortal cyborgs with tech bordering on magic can't ge their act together.


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## ckcrawford

Deadeye776 said:


> NightBringer I choose youuuuu!!!!!!!!!! (hurles shard at the tyranids)


Gotta catch that Void Dragon! 

_Throws pokeball and grins_

Ohh man! Almost had it!


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## Iron Angel

The Emperor wasn't fortunate enough to have pokeba-- Tesseract labyrinths.


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## Serpion5

Iron Angel said:


> The celestial orrerry is one of those things that has me scratching my head. Why don't they just blow up terra with it? Wouldn't tat solve almost all of their problems? Emperor dies, humanity collapses inwards, everyone flips out and galactic war like never before explodes, and the Necrons can just mop up.





SoulGazer said:


> So then don't give one race the implied ability to destroy the entire galaxy in a matter of seconds? Don't write that a race of immortal robots can kill and enslave gods, and that said enslaved gods have "nearly unlimited" power but can be defeated by bolters anyways? Other races have interesting fluff without giving them a dozen "I win" buttons that they'll never use. It's just silly.





Deadeye776 said:


> The Necrontyr knew those. When the Necrons woke up they were the equivalent to the Terminator series. When the Necron's first came out, you tell me if you thought they would ally with an Astartes chapter for the purpose of survival.





nevynxxx said:


> I agree.
> 
> That said, there's nothing to say that there aren't reasons in the fluff why those weapons can't be used, and that we just haven't seen that fluff yet. Leaving big questions is also good for fluff





Deadeye776 said:


> Thank you. This has been my issue. The only way to make this crap believable was to make the entire Necron race afflicted with bs. I said before if they could take out the C'tan then nothing, even fractured, should stand against them. That kind of tech NO ONE in the galaxy has. Knowing this they've made the entire faction watered down to show why a race of immortal cyborgs with tech bordering on magic can't ge their act together.


They don't use their auto win buttons because many are bound by the Codes of Battle which are relentlessly enforced by the Triarch Praetorians. They are honour bound to fight an honourable war. 

Against foes like the orks, tyranids and most likely the c'tan, these codes are put aside. 

The Celestial orrery is barely ever used at all because the necrons controlling it are as close as possible to a neutral faction. They see themselves as caretakers not exterminators. 

Deadeye, when the necron fluff first came out there was barely anything to speak of at all, and bear in mind that was predominantly from an Imperial standpoint. All fluff has been expanded since then, and the necrons' disdainful view of other races can easily account for the lack of communication between early encounters. Again, nothing has necessarily changed.

And the reason so many fractured factions can stand before them is because the necrons are if anything, even more fractured at this stage. Dynasties vie for power while many more continue to sleep. This doesn't mean that they will never be a threat, or can't be in the meantime. 

Actually, why do you WANT them to be so unstoppable?


----------



## SoulGazer

Serpion5 said:


> Actually, why do you WANT them to be so unstoppable?


I've just always liked watching the big bad guys get owned by even bigger and badder guys. Chaos gods, you say? That's nice, we have gods of our own; and they are not impressed. The old C'tan didn't fear the Warp, they actively wanted to get rid of it. They were not afraid, and really didn't care that there were big daemons in the Warp that called themselves gods. Where there is one pantheon, there is always another.

I like the idea of watching gods die, but I don't like the idea of lesser races somehow enslaving their gods and then getting beat anyways by stuff that can't do the same.

Think of it this way, Serpion: If the Imperium marched into the Eye, beat the Chaos gods down, sealed them away, and then marched back out to suddenly have trouble dealing with Orks and Eldar, wouldn't you be just a little confused? And before you say "That could never happen," well, that's what we would have thought a few years ago if someone would have said "Hey, do you think the Necrons could defeat and enslave the C'tan?"


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

Ok I am probably going to get my A** handed to me for this :laugh: but……..

From my Understanding didn’t the the Nectontyr build the physical bodies for the C'tan made from Necrodermis or living metal based on their current Technological level/ knowledge? Then transfer them into these so that they could join forces to defeat the Old Ones together?

If I am right (and am probably wrong, that is where the A** handing is coming in) then wouldn’t the Necrons already have the capability of destroying the physical form of the C’Tan? As I know this is a big argument about some of the new fluff,

What I would have thought the main issue about defeating the C’Tan would be is not destroying the physical form, as when this is done the essence of the C’Tan is dispersed and would still pose as a viable threat to the Necrons, so the options they would be left with was to either

1. Destroy the physical form by shattering it while dispersing the essence across the pieces making them manageable, and controllable by the Necrons
2. Destroy the physical form and somehow defeat the essence of the C’Tan within their true form

On another note around why the C’Tan might share Technology with the Necrons that might one day be used against them we could also take into account the state of mind the C’Tan where in,

At this point it would be easy to assume that they think of themselves as “Gods” with no equal and the rulers of everything, thinking this it would also be easy to assume they went Mad on the Power and thought nothing could destroy them so would not fear anything, in a state of mind like this you would not have second thoughts about sharing things with other beings you think of as lesser being, as even with this they are still only ants….

Anyway let the A** Handing commence :laugh:


----------



## Sothot

No ass handing, that's a very valid point actually. The C'tan necrodermis is a Necrontyr invention, it makes perfect sense for the later Necrons to know all it's inherent weaknesses. 
I am of the opinion that the first codex covered the first few dynasties to rise, and the imperium ay this point would have had only a handful of encounters with these beings. If you look at the second codex as a continuation of the awakening, and told more from the Necron perspective, a clearer picture is formed.


----------



## MEQinc

SoulGazer said:


> I've just always liked watching the big bad guys get owned by even bigger and badder guys.


That can still happen. Its just that Chaos is once again the bigger and badder guys. Do note though that Chaos can and does get smacked around all the time, and probably suffers from inconsistent powers and lack of unity even more than the Necrons.



> The old C'tan didn't fear the Warp, they actively wanted to get rid of it.


They wanted to get rid of it *because* they were afraid of it. You don't devote yourself to the incredibly complex task of severing parallel universes for no reason.



> I like the idea of watching gods die, but I don't like the idea of lesser races somehow enslaving their gods and then getting beat anyways by stuff that can't do the same.


Gods dieing has never happened in the fluff, that I'm aware of. This makes the Necron's act of imprisoning their 'gods' to be a truly unique action in 40k and thus pretty cool.

Further, the technology used to shatter and imprison the C'tan is not a weapon. Their rebellion was not a military coup, per se. There is no reason why having the technology or ability to do this would necessarily equate to them being unstoppable in combat. Look at it this way, Marines are claim-ably the greatest soldiers in existence, and have the record to back such claims up, yet they can still get defeated by the other races, hell rebel humans can kill them with arrows. Does this invalidate the first claim? No. Does it make for an interesting and varied setting where possessing one force does not equal an auto-win? Yes.



> Think of it this way, Serpion: If the Imperium marched into the Eye, beat the Chaos gods down, sealed them away, and then marched back out to suddenly have trouble dealing with Orks and Eldar, wouldn't you be just a little confused?


I'd be very confused, on account of it's not really possible to march in the Eye nor can humanity survive without the warp. On the other hand, Draigo has beat the Chaos Gods down (it was him right, the one that set Nurgle on fire?) and although people (including me) call foul on that one we don't expect it to automatically mean that the Imperium, or even just the Grey Knights, should be unstoppable against every foe. The Orks and the Eldar are not the same as Chaos (shocking I know) and they do not fight the same (another remarkable revelation), just because you can defeat one does not mean you can defeat the others.


----------



## SoulGazer

It's not the part about penetrating the necrodermis that has everyone up in arms, it's that they were able to shatter and contain the essence of the star gods, which the Necrontyr did not create. And then, you know, use them as pokemon.


----------



## SoulGazer

MEQinc said:


> That can still happen. Its just that Chaos is once again the bigger and badder guys. Do note though that Chaos can and does get smacked around all the time, and probably suffers from inconsistent powers and lack of unity even more than the Necrons.


Failbaddon gets smacked around, and various other Chaos plans generally get ruined, but do the gods themselves ever get smacked around? No. They also don't get betrayed the destroyed by their own followers. Well, they get betrayed, sure, but that really doesn't do anything other than amuse them.




MEQinc said:


> They wanted to get rid of it *because* they were afraid of it. You don't devote yourself to the incredibly complex task of severing parallel universes for no reason.


I'd do it for the lulz. :so_happy:




MEQinc said:


> Gods dieing has never happened in the fluff, that I'm aware of. This makes the Necron's act of imprisoning their 'gods' to be a truly unique action in 40k and thus pretty cool.


Pg. 37 of the Necron dex, Llandu'gor, the Flayer, was not merely splintered as were his brothers, but utterly obliterated.



MEQinc said:


> Further, the technology used to shatter and imprison the C'tan is not a weapon. Their rebellion was not a military coup, per se. There is no reason why having the technology or ability to do this would necessarily equate to them being unstoppable in combat. Look at it this way, Marines are claim-ably the greatest soldiers in existence, and have the record to back such claims up, yet they can still get defeated by the other races, hell rebel humans can kill them with arrows. Does this invalidate the first claim? No. Does it make for an interesting and varied setting where possessing one force does not equal an auto-win? Yes.


Pg. 7, Cron dex, "The Necrons focussed the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'tan to endure."

And I don't mind that Necrons can be killed by bolters, they're not invincible, I just think it's silly that they can create weapons to shatter gods and then have to use gauss flayers against everything else.




MEQinc said:


> I'd be very confused, on account of it's not really possible to march in the Eye nor can humanity survive without the warp. On the other hand, Draigo has beat the Chaos Gods down (it was him right, the one that set Nurgle on fire?) and although people (including me) call foul on that one we don't expect it to automatically mean that the Imperium, or even just the Grey Knights, should be unstoppable against every foe. The Orks and the Eldar are not the same as Chaos (shocking I know) and they do not fight the same (another remarkable revelation), just because you can defeat one does not mean you can defeat the others.


Heh, he set fire to Nurgle's jungles, not Nurgle himself(which would have been really funny, admittedly). And yeah, Draigo can march around the Warp all he wants and never stop. This is also silly, but if he can then so can others. Unless he's quite literally unique, but who knows what Ward will think of next? 

And it really doesn't matter that Orks and Eldar are different, mostly because if you can defeat gods, again, you should have no trouble with creatures of flesh.


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

If though they created the necrodermis and the technology to transfer the C’Tan into them then surly with some modifications of the current Technology, plus everything they have learned while in Service to the C’Tan it would not be that farfetched to think that they have the Technology to Shatter their creation while still keeping the essence sealed within

They might not have even intended for the C’Tan to still be alive or aware within the Shards themselves but more dormant for all eternity, the fact that they still retained so much power afterwards could then be attributed to the sheer power that the C’Tan held, but even with so much power you can’t expect to not suffer some side effects, thus the fractured Memories section of the fluff was created.


----------



## Iron Angel

SoulGazer said:


> Failbaddon gets smacked around, and various other Chaos plans generally get ruined, but do the gods themselves ever get smacked around? No. They also don't get betrayed the destroyed by their own followers. Well, they get betrayed, sure, but that really doesn't do anything other than amuse them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd do it for the lulz. :so_happy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pg. 37 of the Necron dex, Llandu'gor, the Flayer, was not merely splintered as were his brothers, but utterly obliterated.
> 
> 
> 
> Pg. 7, Cron dex, "The Necrons focussed the unimaginable energies of the living universe into weapons too mighty for even the C'tan to endure."
> 
> And I don't mind that Necrons can be killed by bolters, they're not invincible, I just think it's silly that they can create weapons to shatter gods and then have to use gauss flayers against everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heh, he set fire to Nurgle's jungles, not Nurgle himself(which would have been really funny, admittedly). And yeah, Draigo can march around the Warp all he wants and never stop. This is also silly, but if he can then so can others. Unless he's quite literally unique, but who knows what Ward will think of next?
> 
> And it really doesn't matter that Orks and Eldar are different, mostly because if you can defeat gods, again, you should have no trouble with creatures of flesh.


Harmonic resonance emitters.

Thats what the Necrons used. They used energy pulses that resonated at the exact same frequency of the C'tan, and used these beams to "overload" the C'tan bodies, causing them to blow up and fracture. Unfortunately, these weapons are useless against anything other than a C'tan.

Thats how I rationalize it.


----------



## SoulGazer

stephen.w.langdon said:


> They might not have even intended for the C’Tan to still be alive or aware within the Shards themselves but more dormant for all eternity, the fact that they still retained so much power afterwards could then be attributed to the sheer power that the C’Tan held, but even with so much power you can’t expect to not suffer some side effects, thus the fractured Memories section of the fluff was created.


The Silent King knew what he was doing and knew it was nearly impossible to destroy them. He had the whole "shatter and imprison them" thing planned out. Again, the fact that they did it is not the what bugs me(Silly though it is), that they did it and can't do it to anything else is the part that bugs me.



Iron Angel said:


> Harmonic resonance emitters.


Along with Inverse Tachyon Beams and Phased Plasma Converters, right? :wink:


----------



## Deadeye776

Serpion5 said:


> They don't use their auto win buttons because many are bound by the Codes of Battle which are relentlessly enforced by the Triarch Praetorians. They are honour bound to fight an honourable war.
> 
> Against foes like the orks, tyranids and most likely the c'tan, these codes are put aside.
> 
> The Celestial orrery is barely ever used at all because the necrons controlling it are as close as possible to a neutral faction. They see themselves as caretakers not exterminators.
> 
> Deadeye, when the necron fluff first came out there was barely anything to speak of at all, and bear in mind that was predominantly from an Imperial standpoint. All fluff has been expanded since then, and the necrons' disdainful view of other races can easily account for the lack of communication between early encounters. Again, nothing has necessarily changed.
> 
> And the reason so many fractured factions can stand before them is because the necrons are if anything, even more fractured at this stage. Dynasties vie for power while many more continue to sleep. This doesn't mean that they will never be a threat, or can't be in the meantime.
> 
> Actually, why do you WANT them to be so unstoppable?


 


They were about as unstoppable as the tyranids and Chaos. The point was that instead of these defeatable opponents you had another faction that could wipe them out. 3 extinction level threats in one setting? Who else had that? It was awesome. I liked the fact that the stakes were so freaking high. So obviously did a lot of other people looking at the poll now that's now come all the way to 50/50, instead of the original overwhelming for it option.

Nothing to speak of? The Nightbringer was one of the most badass characters ever introduced. He was barely ever developed. The idea of the Void Dragon was blowing people away. He was barely developed. The Outsider had people salivating that a lunatic with god-like powers was out there. Again never developed. While the gods could have remained like the Hive Mind or Chaos Gods as grand monsters who used proxy to do their will you could still have your new characters. The Silent King could be the prime proxy of the Void Dragon and doing everything to awaken the imprisoned god. This could also develop stories with Mechanicus charaters and more Deathwatch stories as well. Each trying to stave off this thing alien overlord from getting to mars while they themselves discover the Emperor's dark secret. Other Necron Kings could work for other c'tan and reflect their persona like the daemons in the warp do for their patrons. A lack of imagination is what led to this bullshit that's out now. The blew up primordial energy creatures? To do that they would have to create a machine that produced an energy more powerful than the big bang since that's what birthed the C'tan. Now with that in mind, tell me how the C'tan, with tech, like that haven't destroyed all their enemies. Even fractured they are more powerful than any other force combined in the materium. 

You basically saying they harnessed the natural powers of creation to attack the C'tan. Think about that. Besides the Hive Mind and Chaos Gods who else touts that kind of power? Even weakened and scattered they are more powerful with tech like that then the Imperium and Eldar in their prime combined. I never heard the Eldar wiping out creatures who defied space,time, and the laws of physics. They are barely surviving against Slaanesh, the Necrons wiped out and weakened ALL THE C'TAN. Not just one or two. They've handled them ALL.


----------



## Iron Angel

SoulGazer said:


> Along with Inverse Tachyon Beams and Phased Plasma Converters, right? :wink:


Yes.


----------



## MEQinc

SoulGazer said:


> Failbaddon gets smacked around, and various other Chaos plans generally get ruined, but do the gods themselves ever get smacked around? No. They also don't get betrayed the destroyed by their own followers. Well, they get betrayed, sure, but that really doesn't do anything other than amuse them.


Chaos, as a military force in the material realm, can and does get smacked around. This was my point, not that the Chaos Gods themselves get smacked around, as the Chaos Gods aren't physical beings that you could actually smack around.



> And I don't mind that Necrons can be killed by bolters, they're not invincible, I just think it's silly that they can create weapons to shatter gods and then have to use gauss flayers against everything else.


Hmm. We have atomic bombs, why is it that our soldiers still have to use assault rifles against everything else? One would assume that the devices used to splinter the C'tan are not the kind of easily portable, rapid charging and easy-to-use devices that most small-arms are, for obvious reason.



> Heh, he set fire to Nurgle's jungles, not Nurgle himself(which would have been really funny, admittedly).


My understanding was that Nurgle is his Garden in that fun, warp-y kind of way.



> And yeah, Draigo can march around the Warp all he wants and never stop. This is also silly, but if he can then so can others.


And yet, the Grey Knights can and are overrun by regular old daemons. If Draigo can pimp slap Daemon Primarchs and tp the house of Gods, how can the Grey Knights ever loose? Because they do not all have the abilities of Draigo, just like not all Necrons have access to C'tan shattering weapons.



> And it really doesn't matter that Orks and Eldar are different, mostly because if you can defeat gods, again, you should have no trouble with creatures of flesh.


How do you figure? Do you use an assault rifle to deal with your ant problem? No, because it'd be terrible at it. An even better example, do you use anthrax? No, because ants are actually immune to it. I think we can safely say that humans (very vulnerable to anthrax) are more powerful than, perhaps even godlike in comparison to, ants, yet a weapon that works against people does not work against ants.



Deadeye776 said:


> They were about as unstoppable as the tyranids and Chaos. The point was that instead of these defeatable opponents you had another faction that could wipe them out. 3 extinction level threats in one setting?


The Necrons aren't any less dangerous than they were before hand, indeed the Necrons themselves have become more dangerous. Both codex's paint pictures of high-tech, nigh-unstoppable combat robots whose threat is limited primarily by their lack of numbers. All that's changed is that before they were emotionless and slaved to 'gods' and now they have actual personalities and run their own faction. Yes, the C'tan are no longer the threat they once were but they are still the equal of the most dangerous things the other factions can possess and the Necrons themselves have become only more dangerous. The Necrons are still an extinction level threat. 

Also, sidebar, but I would also consider the Orks an extinction level threat. Their fluff has been quite clear that they possess the numbers and ability to destroy the universe and are stopped by their internal divisions more than anything else (just like Chaos and the Necrons).



> The Nightbringer was one of the most badass characters ever introduced. He was barely ever developed.


Personally I found the Nightbringer's fluff to be overblown. And he still exists if you want him, so... I dunno what the problem is.



> The Outsider had people salivating that a lunatic with god-like powers was out there.


Because 40k certainly lacks for god-like lunatic's *cough* Tzeentch *cough* Chaos *cough* certain interpretations of the Emperor *cough* Alpha-level psykers *cough*



> While the gods could have remained like the Hive Mind or Chaos Gods as grand monsters who used proxy to do their will you could still have your new characters.


But rather than simply make the C'tan material versions of the Chaos Gods (which doesn't work) they chose to do something different with them. And boy did it bite them in the ass.



> This could also develop stories with Mechanicus charaters and more Deathwatch stories as well. Each trying to stave off this thing alien overlord from getting to mars while they themselves discover the Emperor's dark secret. Other Necron Kings could work for other c'tan and reflect their persona like the daemons in the warp do for their patrons.


They can still do all this. The only difference is that the Void Dragon on Mars is not the entire Void Dragon, something that helps explain why it could be defeated and imprisoned and does nothing to detract from the Void Dragon's powers.



> A lack of imagination is what led to this bullshit that's out now.


Originally I was inclined to agree with this opinion but I've changed my mind. See the thing is that the idea of 'soulless killing machines', while unique in 40k is not really a very imaginative one, nor does it allow for players to exercise their imaginations in personalizing their force. But the thing that really got me was that, not only have the Necrons been given new personalities and actual goals and motivations but they've also been given a unique arc with their gods, all without eliminating the possibility of using them exactly as they were before. The thing is that if you can't see how to still play them the old way with the changes the lack of imagination is on your end, not GWs. 



> To do that they would have to create a machine that produced an energy more powerful than the big bang since that's what birthed the C'tan.


That doesn't really follow. The amount of energy that has gone into birthing and sustaining you is far greater than the amount in a bullet, yet that bullet can still kill you. The same is likely true of the C'tan. Never mind the fact that they weren't actually killed but simply had their necrodermis' (built by the Necrons) shattered.



> Now with that in mind, tell me how the C'tan, with tech, like that haven't destroyed all their enemies. Even fractured they are more powerful than any other force combined in the materium.


1) The C'tan don't really have tech of their own.
2) They are clearly not more powerful than any other force in the materium, let alone combined. They lack the numbers, the unity and the will to combat the forces arrayed against them. And until they fix at least some of these problems they will continue to be nothing more (or less) than a looming potential extinction level threat.



> Even weakened and scattered they are more powerful with tech like that then the Imperium and Eldar in their prime combined.


This is nonsense. Not only did the Eldar, pre-peak Empire, battle and win (admittedly not overall) against the Necrons and the (full blown) C'tan but both the Imperium and the Eldar are capable of technological feats beyond the Necrons and both (at their heights) possessed power the Necrons never had.



> I never heard the Eldar wiping out creatures who defied space,time, and the laws of physics. They are barely surviving against Slaanesh, the Necrons wiped out and weakened ALL THE C'TAN. Not just one or two. They've handled them ALL.


Slaanesh and the C'tan are not the same, and Slaanesh is the greater threat. Slaanesh exists across the entire breadth of space and time, in the mind and soul of every living thing. Her birth tore a hole in the fabric of reality and literally sucked the souls out of the Eldar. The C'tan do not defy space, time and the laws of physics; they simply operate on more advanced laws than we currently understand. Conversely there are no such laws in the warp. Slaanesh defies space, by existing everywhere and nowhere; She defies time, by existing before her birth; She defies the laws of physics because where she treads those laws cease to apply, they do not bend for Her, She breaks them. The C'tan are quite possibly the most powerful aliens imaginable but the Ruinous Powers are something so much more. Even a truly powerful alien can be fought and with proper planning, technology and luck can be defeated; but you cannot fight Chaos and it will never go away.


----------



## Serpion5

> They came to us as gods and like fools, we took them at their word.


-Szarek, the Silent King. 

Having access to near unlimited power does not necessarily make one immune to everything and anything. 

Necron science is unparalleled, yet they still fall to enough bolter or lasgun fire.


----------



## SoulGazer

MEQinc said:


> Chaos, as a military force in the material realm, can and does get smacked around. This was my point, not that the Chaos Gods themselves get smacked around, as the Chaos Gods aren't physical beings that you could actually smack around.


The C'tan are also not physical beings, they're pure energy of a different sort. Didn't stop them from getting beat blasted apart, though.





MEQinc said:


> Hmm. We have atomic bombs, why is it that our soldiers still have to use assault rifles against everything else?


This was a question asked many times throughout the Cold War. Why indeed would we need to use rifles and tanks and jets when we have nukes? It was in the off chance enough stuff survived to be worth fighting over once the fallout cleared. IRL, well, we've only got the one planet, so it makes sense for us. However, Exterminatus tends to be a tad more thorough, and they've got more planets. Why would anyone use anything but massive, planet-busting weapons? Who knows? They sure seem to get used often enough as it is.




MEQinc said:


> My understanding was that Nurgle is his Garden in that fun, warp-y kind of way.


I'm not actually certain the jungles and the Garden are the same thing. In the Grey Knights dex is just says "the writhing jungles of Nurgle's domain." Perhaps he's got more than one type of plant-based area? And if Draigo would have been in the Garden, would he have been able to meet Isha? Now that I think about it, that would make for a very interesting story. :shok:




MEQinc said:


> And yet, the Grey Knights can and are overrun by regular old daemons. If Draigo can pimp slap Daemon Primarchs and tp the house of Gods, how can the Grey Knights ever loose? Because they do not all have the abilities of Draigo, just like not all Necrons have access to C'tan shattering weapons.


Draigo fluff makes me cry. And Grey Knights are more often than not portrayed as invincible as the Oldcrons were. They just lose every once in a while, and even when they take huge losses they still take out a Primarch or a DP or something in the process.





MEQinc said:


> How do you figure? Do you use an assault rifle to deal with your ant problem? No, because it'd be terrible at it. An even better example, do you use anthrax? No, because ants are actually immune to it. I think we can safely say that humans (very vulnerable to anthrax) are more powerful than, perhaps even godlike in comparison to, ants, yet a weapon that works against people does not work against ants.


Nope, you use a hose. Or gas. Or poison. There are a myriad of ways to exterminate ants. Do the Necrons only have 2 settings: God-slaying and WWI trench warfare? Eh, I guess in 40k that makes about as much sense as anything else. And if ants start deploying anthrax against people I'm calling GG right away. I for one welcome our new Ant overlords.


----------



## Deadeye776

> And yet, the Grey Knights can and are overrun by regular old daemons. If Draigo can pimp slap Daemon Primarchs and tp the house of Gods, how can the Grey Knights ever loose? Because they do not all have the abilities of Draigo, just like not all Necrons have access to C'tan shattering weapons.


Nice try. First off GK are equal to the a known limit of Chaos forces. That meaning they can deploy 300 GK's (First GK novel) to retake an infected planet. Now if you deployed 300 GK to retake an entire solar system, we would all call bullshit. What your trying to say is that not every necron can be Draigo. Agreed. We aren't even sure if Draigo should be Draigo. But the GK do not possess an a Chaos God killing ray that will, if aimed at the gods, destroy them. As a force the knights can banish with the holocaust techniqe or just kick ass like chuck norris. But the overall force knows it's a battle. They have no deus ex machina device to eradicate their ultimate foe.





> How do you figure? Do you use an assault rifle to deal with your ant problem? No, because it'd be terrible at it. An even better example, do you use anthrax? No, because ants are actually immune to it. I think we can safely say that humans (very vulnerable to anthrax) are more powerful than, perhaps even godlike in comparison to, ants, yet a weapon that works against people does not work against ants.


Yeah, but if ants had a dematerializing ray to conquer the human race, you'd change your tune. 





> The Necrons aren't any less dangerous than they were before hand, indeed the Necrons themselves have become more dangerous. Both codex's paint pictures of high-tech, nigh-unstoppable combat robots whose threat is limited primarily by their lack of numbers. All that's changed is that before they were emotionless and slaved to 'gods' and now they have actual personalities and run their own faction. Yes, the C'tan are no longer the threat they once were but they are still the equal of the most dangerous things the other factions can possess and the Necrons themselves have become only more dangerous. The Necrons are still an extinction level threat.


No and no. I never said the Necrons are less dangerous. The C'tan maybe. The necrons possess god killing weapons. Who's ever defeated a god in 40k that wasn't believed to be one themselves? I'll help you out, NO ONE. From Khaine to even the Emperor they all have defeated beings of great power but were themselves considered gods. The weapon will be able to defeat the combined might of the Imperium and the tyranid threat with enough left over to give Chaos a run for it's money. No help needed. Go back and read the description of exactly what the C'tan are. Then realize what the Necrons did. They didn't just get freed from slavery. They've become gods themselves. Utlilizing those kinds of powers put's them waaaaaaay above anyhthing else in the galaxy. It's ridiculous to think that because they are "fractured" as a society that would stop them. They have the C'tan shards, the weapon that destroyed the C'tan, and the basic weapons are still light years ahead of everyone else. That's their situation now. It's gone to ridiculous with this new fluff. 



> Also, sidebar, but I would also consider the Orks an extinction level threat. Their fluff has been quite clear that they possess the numbers and ability to destroy the universe and are stopped by their internal divisions more than anything else (just like Chaos and the Necrons).


I agree but IMO they haven't really done anything since Armageddon.....



> Personally I found the Nightbringer's fluff to be overblown. And he still exists if you want him, so... I dunno what the problem is.


That's your opinion and your entitled to it. I would consider the new fluff the same. I explained as much with the firepower the Necrons have. 




> Because 40k certainly lacks for god-like lunatic's *cough* Tzeentch *cough* Chaos *cough* certain interpretations of the Emperor *cough* Alpha-level psykers *cough*


Tzeentch and the Outsider are world's apart in characterization. To be honest with you all the C'tan don't really have counter parts with the gods. Think about it, the closest would be the Deciever to Tzeentch.

Nighbringer-Fear
Void Dragon-Oblivion
Outsider- Madness

While some of the Gods of Chaos worshippers can experiance these as a by-product of what their patrons represent these things are not what Chaos is about at all. They were different which is why I liked them. Who's the Chaos god of Fear? Who's the Chaos god of Oblivion? Who's the Chaos God of Insanity?



> But rather than simply make the C'tan material versions of the Chaos Gods (which doesn't work) they chose to do something different with them. And boy did it bite them in the ass.


Not sure where your going with this. They weren't material versions of the Chaos gods. None of the C'tan dealt in wanton blood shed for worship. None of the Warp Gods wanted absolute fear of death or insanity from their subjects as they main emotional sustenance. 




> They can still do all this. The only difference is that the Void Dragon on Mars is not the entire Void Dragon, something that helps explain why it could be defeated and imprisoned and does nothing to detract from the Void Dragon's powers.


You obviously didn't read the part where they said he was starving and already weakened in mechanicus. They aready explained how he was defeated. Read it again. No one guessed at what happened. You imagine a heavy weight fighter who hasn't eaten in more than a week taking on a strong middle weight? The Dragon and the rest of the C'tan were starving due to the Enslaver plauge and low population to feed on. Don't pretend like this wasn't already explained originally. 




> Originally I was inclined to agree with this opinion but I've changed my mind. See the thing is that the idea of 'soulless killing machines', while unique in 40k is not really a very imaginative one, nor does it allow for players to exercise their imaginations in personalizing their force. But the thing that really got me was that, not only have the Necrons been given new personalities and actual goals and motivations but they've also been given a unique arc with their gods, all without eliminating the possibility of using them exactly as they were before. The thing is that if you can't see how to still play them the old way with the changes the lack of imagination is on your end, not GWs.


Doing it my way would have developed characters in the Deathwatch and Mechanicus as well as having your specialized characters in the Necrons. What do you have now? A bunch of retirement home toasters teaming up with the Astartes for help? They could have been system lords and trying to conquer the Astartes, not doing peace treaties. What the hell happened to "There is only War" mantra of 40k. You want to start an Imperial NATO? This pacification of the "soul-less killing machine" mentality means they can be reasoned with. Instead of being like the Borg on star trek or the Terminators in .....Terminator they are more like C3P0. Okay that's a bit far. Still the ressurection and empowerment of the C'tan could have been the goals of the individual empires just like in the warp. Fear, oblivion, Madness, and deciet would be their codes just like blood, manipulation, depravity, and health is for the warp gods. You could have revitalized the Deathwatch and Ordo Xenos series with this new threat on top of the the Tyranids. Why should the Malleus get all the press. The Mechanicus could develop specialized characters as well as the Silent King makes attempts to free the Void Dragon from his prison. The test of loyalty to the Mechanicus when they find out what is really going on would be a great story. Who stays loyal and who turns. That's not imagination compared to the BS fluff you have now?




> That doesn't really follow. The amount of energy that has gone into birthing and sustaining you is far greater than the amount in a bullet, yet that bullet can still kill you. The same is likely true of the C'tan. Never mind the fact that they weren't actually killed but simply had their necrodermis' (built by the Necrons) shattered.


Actually one was killed. Also we are not creatures made out of energy so your explanation doesn't hold to a creature created by the birthing energies of the universe. 



> 1) The C'tan don't really have tech of their own.
> 2) They are clearly not more powerful than any other force in the materium, let alone combined. They lack the numbers, the unity and the will to combat the forces arrayed against them. And until they fix at least some of these problems they will continue to be nothing more (or less) than a looming potential extinction level threat.


1. Read the Void Dragon's original bio. I don't know what they've done to him now.
2. Yes they are. They have the C'tan shards, weapons that are capable of killing a c'tan, and their own technology. Who else has that kind of fire power?
3. Oh so they've given them a thread of the Orks "we can't unite" story. How original. Just like when the Orks "fix" their problems they can too conquer the universe. How original that both have the same freaking problem for different reasons. 




> This is nonsense. Not only did the Eldar, pre-peak Empire, battle and win (admittedly not overall) against the Necrons and the (full blown) C'tan but both the Imperium and the Eldar are capable of technological feats beyond the Necrons and both (at their heights) possessed power the Necrons never had.


Um, first dial it down a bit. The Eldar were apart of MANY races that were created to fight JUST the Necrons and C'tan. They were the only race left standing after, even with the enslaver plague. So don't attribute to much to their badassness. That last statement of your is bullshit. Never did the Eldar possess tech to defeat their own gods. The greatest hero they've ever had,Eldanesh, was defeated by Khaine while wielding a god-made sword. Never have I ever read about a weapon they possessed that would equal what happened to the C'tan. The closest would be the Talismans of Vaul. According to the Void Dragon's story, those came up short against him as well. The C'tan alone have defeated not one or 2 but All the Gods of a faction. Even Slaanesh didn't get all the Eldar Gods. The Necrons have sharded or fully destroyed all the C'tan. That's the best God-ass-kicking record in 40k by miles. Oh and the Talismans were supposedly created by, oh you guessed it, Vaul. Meaning had they worked in Destroying the Void Dragon, it still would have been because another gods intellect and will, not his worshippers.




> Slaanesh and the C'tan are not the same, and Slaanesh is the greater threat. Slaanesh exists across the entire breadth of space and time, in the mind and soul of every living thing. Her birth tore a hole in the fabric of reality and literally sucked the souls out of the Eldar. The C'tan do not defy space, time and the laws of physics; they simply operate on more advanced laws than we currently understand. Conversely there are no such laws in the warp. Slaanesh defies space, by existing everywhere and nowhere; She defies time, by existing before her birth; She defies the laws of physics because where she treads those laws cease to apply, they do not bend for Her, She breaks them. The C'tan are quite possibly the most powerful aliens imaginable but the Ruinous Powers are something so much more. Even a truly powerful alien can be fought and with proper planning, technology and luck can be defeated; but you cannot fight Chaos and it will never go away.


[/QUOTE]


See this is what I'm talking about. Aliens? From what planet? They were energy beings feeding on starts. They were the first sentient beings in creation, which means they technically predate the freaking Chaos Gods. They existed beyond space and time and could manipulate the universe and reality to their will. The Nightbringer impressed the image of itself in the minds of nearly ever sentient creature in the universe to increase it's delight in Fear. The Void Dragon was considered the most powerful creature in the physical universe. Once again, go read exactly what the C'tan were. They aren't aliens. They were in this universe first, before any other creatures could think. They were around before the Old Ones. I'm not taking away from the threat of Chaos, but please don't underestimate the C'tan threat. In truth, before this fluff was written the C'tan were the only faction in 40k with a legitimate way to defeat Chaos without killing every human in the galaxy. Plyons placed all around near warp gates would shut the warp off from the material realm forever. Yeah, who else has a plan that clean to stop Chaos? No one. They deserved better.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

_MEQ_ covered everything I wanted to say on the continued debate.



SoulGazer said:


> I'm not actually certain the jungles and the Garden are the same thing. In the Grey Knights dex is just says "the writhing jungles of Nurgle's domain." Perhaps he's got more than one type of plant-based area? And if Draigo would have been in the Garden, would he have been able to meet Isha? Now that I think about it, that would make for a very interesting story. :shok:


Seeing as the wording is _"the writhing jungles of *Nurgle's domain*."_ It is almost certainly referring to the Garden of Nurgle. As _MEQ_ said, the gods and their realms are as one: _"The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one; both are formed of the same warp energy."_ So in essence, he burned part of the warp energy that constitutes Nurgle.


----------



## SoulGazer

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Seeing as the wording is _"the writhing jungles of *Nurgle's domain*."_ It is almost certainly referring to the Garden of Nurgle. As _MEQ_ said, the gods and their realms are as one: _"The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one; both are formed of the same warp energy."_ So in essence, he burned part of the warp energy that constitutes Nurgle.


And there you have it. 

Draigo can beat anything Chaos, and yet will never truly win. The Necrons can destroy the galaxy instantly, but won't ever use the ability. I sense a pattern here... And the pattern has a name that eclipses all others...




Matt Ward


----------



## Deadeye776

Kaldor Draigo being stuck in a pointless version of hell where he never makes any real impact doesn't apply at all to the C'tans. It would be as if we were talking about Draigo summoning the vast powers of the warp and shattering the gods essences completely and killing Slaanesh in the process. That would make it about even. For the Tyranids the zoanthropes summoned every shred of power they had and shattered the Hive mind.That would be equal.


----------



## SoulGazer

Deadeye776 said:


> Kaldor Draigo being stuck in a pointless version of hell where he never makes any real impact doesn't apply at all to the C'tans. It would be as if we were talking about Draigo summoning the vast powers of the warp and shattering the gods essences completely and killing Slaanesh in the process. That would make it about even. For the Tyranids the zoanthropes summoned every shred of power they had and shattered the Hive mind.That would be equal.


Who said anything about them being equal? They're both equally silly, lol. It's not that Draigo can't win, it's that he can't lose. Against everything in the Warp. At the same time. :crazy: Similar to how the Necrons won't use things like the Celestial Orrery or mass C'tan, but they have them anyways.


----------



## Serpion5

SoulGazer said:


> And there you have it.
> 
> Draigo can beat anything Chaos, and yet will never truly win. The Necrons can destroy the galaxy instantly, but won't ever use the ability. I sense a pattern here... And the pattern has a name that eclipses all others...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Ward


Draigo was cursed by a daemon to be trapped in the warp. Said daemon would not have done this if Draigo was a true threat, which he can never be. 

And the necrons won't destroy the galaxy because their aim is not that at all, their aim is to reclaim it. 

I also see a pattern here. 



Logic.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

What I do like about the new fluff is that they are now believable to reflect the models. After all the old rules did not in my mind represent Gods who devoured stars and destroyed everything.

However the big thing I do not like is that somehow the C'tan were defeated out of hubris. After all one does not simply become a big stupidly powerful God that destroys everything by vastly underestimating your minions.

It also surprises me that after tricking the Necrontyr that not a single C'tan shard thought that said Necrons might be pissed about this and develop some sort of integrated Asimov's laws for robotics into the basic shells so they could never rebel?

There are just too many gaps and I am not happy with the current solutions being volunteered in the fluff.


----------



## Serpion5

Near Unlimited power. 

Not near unlimited intellect. 

An instinctive understanding of the nature of the Universe does not automatically equate to a Master tactician or a Supreme Politician. 

Even when the necrons acted, catching the c'tan by surprise, they lost trillions of their own number to the c'tan's vengeance, as well as being afflicted with the Flayer virus which continues to eat away at their numbers and culture.


----------



## Xisor

Stephen_Newman said:


> However the big thing I do not like is that somehow the C'tan were defeated out of hubris. After all one does not simply become a big stupidly powerful God that destroys everything by vastly underestimating your minions.


The common link, surely, is the involvement not of the Necrons... but the C'tan. 

Or to put it another way: the defeat of the C'tan has to be their hubris. But it can be more than "Oh, the Necrons aren't a threat! Oh snap, turns out they were! How silly are we? Oh no, dead now." As per the old lore, the C'tans had to turn on themselves. The Necron weapons they used against the C'tan might well have been other C'tan.

I've mentioned it a couple of times through the thread and other places - but the idea of 'sharding' C'tan could be a C'tan idea. They're beings whose existence is not measured in millions of years but, surely, billions. 

Again, there's the critical Lovecraftian theme too: that is not dead which cannot die. Or to put it another way: just because the C'tan are currently 'dead', doesn't mean they'll be eternally dead. The text discussing the shards basically says exactly that: the deployment of the shards is a massively useful thing... but also massively dangerous. The possibility of the C'tan reforming is not negligible.

Similarly, and more intriguingly: the idea that the C'tan still persist - that the C'tan know they can survive sharding. Or better yet: some of the C'tan aren't actually 'out of the game'. It's a ruse.

The Necrons are still playing, in part, to the C'tan's tune.

Need a clue?

Orikan & The Deceiver. 

"Pokemon C'tan" must be the most insipid, unambitious, unimaginative and dull take on the current codex possible.


----------



## Iron Angel

Xisor said:


> The common link, surely, is the involvement not of the Necrons... but the C'tan.
> 
> Or to put it another way: the defeat of the C'tan has to be their hubris. But it can be more than "Oh, the Necrons aren't a threat! Oh snap, turns out they were! How silly are we? Oh no, dead now." As per the old lore, the C'tans had to turn on themselves. The Necron weapons they used against the C'tan might well have been other C'tan.
> 
> I've mentioned it a couple of times through the thread and other places - but the idea of 'sharding' C'tan could be a C'tan idea. They're beings whose existence is not measured in millions of years but, surely, billions.
> 
> Again, there's the critical Lovecraftian theme too: that is not dead which cannot die. Or to put it another way: just because the C'tan are currently 'dead', doesn't mean they'll be eternally dead. The text discussing the shards basically says exactly that: the deployment of the shards is a massively useful thing... but also massively dangerous. The possibility of the C'tan reforming is not negligible.
> 
> Similarly, and more intriguingly: the idea that the C'tan still persist - that the C'tan know they can survive sharding. Or better yet: some of the C'tan aren't actually 'out of the game'. It's a ruse.
> 
> The Necrons are still playing, in part, to the C'tan's tune.
> 
> Need a clue?
> 
> Orikan & The Deceiver.
> 
> "Pokemon C'tan" must be the most insipid, unambitious, unimaginative and dull take on the current codex possible.


I agree. The C'tan are not dead. This is just part of a bigger plan.


----------



## Sothot

^ this x100. For those that just can't get behind it, it's like a sequel to your favorite movie you don't enjoy. The original is still there for you to enjoy.


----------



## Deadeye776

SoulGazer said:


> Who said anything about them being equal? They're both equally silly, lol. It's not that Draigo can't win, it's that he can't lose. Against everything in the Warp. At the same time. :crazy: Similar to how the Necrons won't use things like the Celestial Orrery or mass C'tan, but they have them anyways.


 


lol, We have different interpretations of victory. Kaldor Draigo is probably one of the most amusing thing to the Chaos Gods. They are immortal energy creatures who manipulate time and space in their realm. Eventually they feel he will see the futility all his efforts produce and play ball. Everything you see that he's done was repaired immediately if not in a day. He makes no impact in the warp at all. Quick question: If the Necron were on the verge of being massacered, they would rather ally with the Blood Angels then use a weapon that could potentially vanquish the tyranids? So besides emotion they are now complete idiots?


----------



## Serpion5

No faction has a single weapon that could eradicate all the tyranids. Even the Silent King acknowledges it will take no less than the United forces of all Dynasties to win that fight.


----------



## Deadeye776

> "Pokemon C'tan" must be the most insipid, unambitious, unimaginative and dull take on the current codex possible.


[/QUOTE] 


Why? Do you think Mew 2 is a level above the Nightbringer?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Quick question: If the Necron were on the verge of being massacered, they would rather ally with the Blood Angels then use a weapon that could potentially vanquish the tyranids? So besides emotion they are now complete idiots?


The Necron Dynasties do not have a weapon that could wipe out the Tyranids, as _Serp_ said even the Silent King recognises that it would take the unification of the entire Necron race to challenge the Tyranids (hence why he has returned to the galaxy). Also: see _MEQ_'s atomic bomb/assault rifle analogy.

Given the varying personalities of the Necron lords, why is it so implausible for a Necron force to temporary cease hostilities with one enemy to engage another?

I also agree wholeheartedly with _Xisor_, _"Pokémon C'tan"_ is such an unimaginative take on the new lore. He also raises an interesting idea; the codex simply states that the Necrons harnessed the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe"_ to shatter the C'tan, but who is to say this didn't involve another C'tan? Perhaps a C'tan (the Deciever?) was even complicit in the Necron rebellion, after all he was always termed as the weakest and may have desired to use the Necron rebellion and subsequent sharding of himself and his brethren as a method to claim dominion. The concept of numerous (if not thousands of) Deciever shards orchestrating a single plan in collaboration is very appealing. 

Surely that would solve the problem here _Deadeye_ (and align more closely with the old lore in the sense that it took a C'tan to defeat the other C'tan) and you could get onboard?


----------



## Deadeye776

> Child-of-the-Emperor said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Necron Dynasties do not have a weapon that could wipe out the Tyranids, as _Serp_ said even the Silent King recognises that it would take the unification of the entire Necron race to challenge the Tyranids (hence why he has returned to the galaxy). Also: see _MEQ_'s atomic bomb/assault rifle analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> So your saying a faction that at it's basis has technology that trumps everyone else. To add to that they have a weapon that can harness the "natural energies of the universe." No one has that tech anyhwhere, trust me I checked. As a result of that weapon they also have some of the C'tan's shards which can harness a portion of the most powerful creatures in the universe.Tell me again what's holding them back? With an arsenal like that they should be able to destroy solar systems. Unification is there problem? Even fractured no other force can put a weapon that destroys star gods, shards of Star Gods, and all the other tech they have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given the varying personalities of the Necron lords, why is it so implausible for a Necron force to temporary cease hostilities with one enemy to engage another?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because this universe use to have an "every man for himself feel to it" unless it was chaos. Now the Tyranids have that position. The Necron/C'tan could have occupied that position as well. NOw they like the humans and Eldar will ally with survival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also agree wholeheartedly with _Xisor_, _"Pokémon C'tan"_ is such an unimaginative take on the new lore. He also raises an interesting idea; the codex simply states that the Necrons harnessed the _"unimaginable energies of the living universe"_ to shatter the C'tan, but who is to say this didn't involve another C'tan? Perhaps a C'tan (the Deciever?) was even complicit in the Necron rebellion, after all he was always termed as the weakest and may have desired to use the Necron rebellion and subsequent sharding of himself and his brethren as a method to claim dominion. The concept of numerous (if not thousands of) Deciever shards orchestrating a single plan in collaboration is very appealing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your speculating to make this rebellion and the tech and success more plausible. Sadly this won't float because Matt Ward never wrote it. You can think of a bunch of conspiracy theories to make this more acceptable to our side. Truth is is the facts are irrefutable. Matt Ward says that the C'tan and the Necrontyr couldn't defeat the Old Ones. Instead of a dying race looking for revenge the Necrontyr are a galactic empire looking to unite by destroying the Old Ones. The allied with the C'tan to up there levels of arms. The alliance worked, but the Silent king got wind that the immortality they'd been given was making them into slaves. They got their hands on a weapon that "marvel universed" the laws of the universe and sharded or destroyed the C'tan. So from this the C'tan were never really "gods" to the Necrontyr as they were both on equal footing. I don't know how many times I had to say this but these are not the same C'tan. You can't reconcile fluff from a race of dying mortals on a solitary world to close to their sun to an intergalactic empire looking for a cause to unite behind. Those are football feilds apart.
> 
> The fluff changed completely. Stop trying to reconcile it to say it's the same. It's not. The books from Nightbringer and Mechanicus were written for the original fluff. A completely weakened star god awakened after billions of years in hibernation. The Nightbringer still had Necron followers with him when he came to, not as guards but servants. Why? Just accept the fact that they are out of continutity and we are upset about the loss of the original fluff. This new fluff that at one point are destroying entities that could give the Chaos Gods a run for their money can't handle a tyranid attack fleet? Makes absolutely no sense. If they can harness the natural power of the universe as well as utilize the shards they now possess of the C'tan, how can anything stand against them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surely that would solve the problem here _Deadeye_ (and align more closely with the old lore in the sense that it took a C'tan to defeat the other C'tan) and you could get onboard?
Click to expand...


----------



## Xisor

The thing is, Deadeye, the stories in _Mechanicum_ and _Nightbringer_ were widely criticised. Ultramarine Captain defeats stargod by collapsing a cave? Pre-Imperium Emperor fights the Dragon and wins?

You've not got a leg to stand on there - even going way back, the idea was there:



> "I understand,” Dalia told Semyon. “The Dragon… I don’t know what it is, but I know where it is.”
> 
> “Do you?” asked Semyon. “Tell me.”
> 
> “This cavern… everything in it. This is it. *Or at least a sliver of it.*”
> 
> Semyon nodded. “A Tomb and prison all in one.”
> 
> “How?”
> 
> Semyon beckoned her over to the lectern and opened the book. “Look. Know.“


- Page 354, Mechanicum.

How can anything stand against them?

The Necrons aren't fully awake yet. They've not repossessed all their assets. This is a big point, it's been a big point since *before* the last codex (with the BFG list). There's always been speculation that the Necrons have ships which, reports go, dwarfed the largest of Ork Space Hulks.

In every incarnation, there's been a big, massive even, point of saying "The Necrons have stuff that's not in play yet".

So those galaxy-destroying weapons? We know nothing about their power. Do they need to be mounted on a Dyson Sphere? Do you need to be able to transport entire star systems to aim them?

As we know, the Necrons are still in the first few (dozen) millennia of their re-awakening. They're a fractured civilisation who've seemingly 'got something wrong'. For those of us (heretics!) who're happy to read between the lines, it's a very easy case. For those who aren't, it already bloody says: some of the not-yet-awakened Dynasties are sitting on top of the biggest weapons.

In other words: the awakened dynasties are in an arms race to recapture the galaxy-threatening weapons. The 'big chance' for other races is to stop the Necrons recapturing them.

You mean... Matt Ward gave them a dynamic place in the setting rather than "after a while, the Necrons _will_ win"? Shock horror. What a dick he must be.


----------



## Serpion5

> The fluff changed completely. Stop trying to reconcile it to say it's the same. It's not. The books from Nightbringer and Mechanicus were written for the original fluff. A completely weakened star god awakened after billions of years in hibernation. The Nightbringer still had Necron followers with him when he came to, not as guards but servants. Why? Just accept the fact that they are out of continutity and we are upset about the loss of the original fluff. This new fluff that at one point are destroying entities that could give the Chaos Gods a run for their money can't handle a tyranid attack fleet? Makes absolutely no sense. If they can harness the natural power of the universe as well as utilize the shards they now possess of the C'tan, how can anything stand against them?


You're (still) not listening. Nobody's trying to say it's the same. We're saying it still works. The origins of the necrontyr can still be held as canon. 

Going back to the War in Heaven now; it says that Cegorach fooled the Outsider into attacking its brothers. The Deceiver fooled the Nightbringer into doing the same. 

This is old lore, and it still supports the idea of the necrons using _the living energies of the universe_ against the c'tan. After all, if the Deceiver is as far reaching and manipulative as he's always been made out to be, then this works doesn't it? If the necrons have a god shattering weapon of their own it would be far easier to only have to target one or two gods rather than the whole pantheon? 

It could have even been the Deceiver's influence that caused this weapon to destroy the Flayer God rather than shard him like the rest. 

The Outsider could in fact be some amalgamation of shards, accounting for its supposed insanity.

Saying none of this works simply because it's not written is foolish. 40k has _*ALWAYS*_ deliberately left empty pieces of lore for the fans to fill and speculate over. Is Alpharius dead? What befell 2nd and 11th primarchs? And so on. In this case we have a whole race's history to speculate on and all you want to do is say it's crap? 



Xisor said:


> The thing is, Deadeye, the stories in _Mechanicum_ and _Nightbringer_ were widely criticised. Ultramarine Captain defeats stargod by collapsing a cave? Pre-Imperium Emperor fights the Dragon and wins?
> 
> You've not got a leg to stand on there - even going way back, the idea was there:
> 
> 
> - Page 354, Mechanicum.
> 
> How can anything stand against them?
> 
> The Necrons aren't fully awake yet. They've not repossessed all their assets. This is a big point, it's been a big point since *before* the last codex (with the BFG list). There's always been speculation that the Necrons have ships which, reports go, dwarfed the largest of Ork Space Hulks.
> 
> In every incarnation, there's been a big, massive even, point of saying "The Necrons have stuff that's not in play yet".
> 
> So those galaxy-destroying weapons? We know nothing about their power. Do they need to be mounted on a Dyson Sphere? Do you need to be able to transport entire star systems to aim them?
> 
> As we know, the Necrons are still in the first few (dozen) millennia of their re-awakening. They're a fractured civilisation who've seemingly 'got something wrong'. For those of us (heretics!) who're happy to read between the lines, it's a very easy case. For those who aren't, it already bloody says: some of the not-yet-awakened Dynasties are sitting on top of the biggest weapons.
> 
> In other words: the awakened dynasties are in an arms race to recapture the galaxy-threatening weapons. The 'big chance' for other races is to stop the Necrons recapturing them.
> 
> You mean... Matt Ward gave them a dynamic place in the setting rather than "after a while, the Necrons _will_ win"? Shock horror. What a dick he must be.


Absolutely. I personally struggled to reconcile the behaviour of the Nightbringer. He was afraid of being buried, yet following the encounter _he tunneled out of the cavern anyway._ Explain that. 

Same with the Dragon. I never once bought the idea that the Emperor could defeat supposedly the strongest Star God. The new lore also goes a way to better explaining why it came to Earth rather than retreat to a Tomb World.


----------



## Iron Angel

Serpion5 said:


> I never once bought the idea that the Emperor could defeat supposedly the strongest Star God. The new lore also goes a way to better explaining why it came to Earth rather than retreat to a Tomb World.


Well now that its just a shard, I suppose even a chump like the Emperor can beat it, right? :laugh:


----------



## Akatsuki13

Quite right and for that matter we are assuming that the weapons the Necrons used survived the shattering of the C'tan and that they were of Necron origin. For all we know they could have used captured Blackstone Fortresses (aka the Talismans of Vaul) which were weapons to be used on the C'tan.

But ultimately we're talking about a time of legend and myth in the 40k universe which is why much of the actual war has always been vague and unclear even in the Necron Codex.

To me the old Necrons never really felt like a proper army and race when you hold them up against any of the other armies. They just had no personality. And even worse the C'tan in the TT didn't feel like the powerful gods all the fluff billed them to be. Plus I never liked that there were just two of them active and leading the Necrons considering they're spread out across the galaxy.

Frankly I love the new Necron fluff due in large part that they addressed those issues. Sure there are little things I don't particularly care about in the Codex but then I can say that about _every_ army in 40k and WFB. Actually what really annoys me about the Necrons is all this hatred towards them and just how unwilling some people are to accept change. Matt Ward, like him or hate him, gave the Necrons exactly what they needed, personality. Realistically the only way they could have given them more personality was to make them more autonomous of the C'tan. Shattering the C'tan was best way to not only do that but also to balance the C'tan in the TT with the immense powers they have in the fluff. And this idea of the Deceiver orchestrating the event makes a great deal of sense. For those of you those you who scream about the insanity of the Deceiver creating an event that saw his own shattering let me point out that the C'tan are _not_ human. Their rationale and mindsets are utterly alien to us so trying to apply our logic to them is pointless. Plus there is another notion no one seems to be considering, the notion of perhaps someone else helping the Silent King to shatter the Necrons, namely Cegorach. There's story of C'tan cannibalism that has two versions, one with the Deceiver orchestrating the event while the other has the Laughing God doing it. What if Cegorach helped the Silent King in his revenge? Perhaps as I suggested early the weapons used to shatter them were the Blackstone Fortresses and Cegorach showed him how to use them.

One thing I do love about this new fluff is that it gives us enough to tell the story but provides us with plenty of room for own interpretations upon it.


----------



## Iron Angel

The only problem with that is that the Talismans of Vaul were failures that did nothing but piss off the C'tan they were used on.


----------



## SoulGazer

The new fluff allows for the old fluff to _maybe almost kinda sorta_ work. It allows for it to be vague. There is no mention of Mars or anything like that in the new dex. There's a reason for that. They want you to forget it ever happened. I seriously doubt the new Cron dex is a "fluff addition." That's BS. Is there any dex that was merely an add-on to the last dex in terms of fluff? If so I would very much like to know. I'm talking about entirely new fluff that has no mention at all of previous fluff that is a continuation and states that. No vague "it doesn't say it didn't happen" shenanigans. That's either for a reason or VERY lazy writing. Or they're trying to get out of admitting to retcons because the fluff is sacred or something like that.


----------



## Iron Angel

Retcons... Retcrons...

Pure genius. I'm going to start calling them Retcrons from now on.


----------



## Serpion5

SoulGazer said:


> The new fluff allows for the old fluff to _maybe almost kinda sorta_ work. It allows for it to be vague. There is no mention of Mars or anything like that in the new dex. There's a reason for that. They want you to forget it ever happened. I seriously doubt the new Cron dex is a "fluff addition." That's BS. Is there any dex that was merely an add-on to the last dex in terms of fluff? If so I would very much like to know. I'm talking about entirely new fluff that has no mention at all of previous fluff that is a continuation and states that. No vague "it doesn't say it didn't happen" shenanigans. That's either for a reason or VERY lazy writing. Or they're trying to get out of admitting to retcons because the fluff is sacred or something like that.


How about because there's no need to? The c'tan are not the focus of the new necron codex. There's no need to drop subtle hints of their shenanigans at every corner and fluff box. 

There is a brief mention of rogue or unaccounted c'tan shards roaming the galaxy in the new dex, and that is all that is needed to make novels like _Nightbringer_ and _Mechanicum_ work just fine.


----------



## Akatsuki13

Iron Angel said:


> The only problem with that is that the Talismans of Vaul were failures that did nothing but piss off the C'tan they were used on.


Remember in the old the C'tan could be destroyed, they can't now. I even suspect the one that was destroyed lives on through the Flayer Virus and that only his physical form was destroyed but that's getting off topic here. Certainly the Talismans couldn't destroy the C'tan but that doesn't mean they could not shatter the C'tan. Given that the C'tan were vulnerable to the Warp it does make sense to use it to shatter them.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> So your saying a faction that at it's basis has technology that trumps everyone else. To add to that they have a weapon that can harness the "natural energies of the universe."


Do they have such a weapon? The codex states they were able to weaponise the _"living energies of the living universe"_, but that doesn't mean they maintain a big cannon that utilises such power. Who said the energy or technology wasn't expended in the process of the shattering? Or perhaps the C'tan destroyed the technology? How was the Silent King able to weaponise this energy? Did he have help? Who would have helped him? None of these questions are answered in the codex, and this is where the interesting theories and speculation comes in.



Deadeye776 said:


> No one has that tech anyhwhere, trust me I checked. As a result of that weapon they also have some of the C'tan's shards which can harness a portion of the most powerful creatures in the universe.Tell me again what's holding them back? With an arsenal like that they should be able to destroy solar systems. Unification is there problem? Even fractured no other force can put a weapon that destroys star gods, shards of Star Gods, and all the other tech they have.


Both the old lore and the new stressed that as of M41 the Necrons are no way near full-strength. Both editions stressed the future potential of the Necron threat, but were sure to portray the Necrons as a fractured and damaged civilisation rising from a sixty million year slumber; something which caused an incredible amount of problems/malfunctions/destruction/incalculable loss. The Necrons have to overcome these problems first before they can rise on the galactic stage.



Deadeye776 said:


> You can't reconcile fluff from a race of dying mortals on a solitary world to close to their sun to an intergalactic empire looking for a cause to unite behind.


You've got your facts wrong here. The Necrontyr of the old lore were not of a single world, but established a galactic empire just like they did in the new lore.



Deadeye776 said:


> Your speculating to make this rebellion and the tech and success more plausible. Sadly this won't float because Matt Ward never wrote it. You can think of a bunch of conspiracy theories to make this more acceptable to our side. Truth is is the facts are irrefutable.


This is what I mean about a lack of imagination. In terms of actual wording, there is only a sentence or two which narrates the shattering of the C'tan in the codex. Discrediting plausable theories because they arn't explicitly printed in black & white is just plain boring. If you maintain your current attitude I guarantee you'll find yourself moaning about all new editions to the lore. Honestly I don't know how you get anything out of the 40k universe if you remain as narrow-minded.



SoulGazer said:


> The new fluff allows for the old fluff to _maybe almost kinda sorta_ work. It allows for it to be vague. There is no mention of Mars or anything like that in the new dex. There's a reason for that. They want you to forget it ever happened. I seriously doubt the new Cron dex is a "fluff addition." That's BS. Is there any dex that was merely an add-on to the last dex in terms of fluff? If so I would very much like to know. I'm talking about entirely new fluff that has no mention at all of previous fluff that is a continuation and states that. No vague "it doesn't say it didn't happen" shenanigans. That's either for a reason or VERY lazy writing. Or they're trying to get out of admitting to retcons because the fluff is sacred or something like that.


They shouldn't have to regurgitate the same lore over and over again throughout the editions. The Void Dragon/Mars lore is still applicable, why wouldn't it be? 

As _Serp_ said, the Necrons are the focus of the new lore rather than the C'tan (or the _"C'tan did it"_ theories).


----------



## Iron Angel

I liked the C'tan Did It theories. Made me feel good inside knowing all your successes were only possible through the intervention of star gods that will inevitably devour your soul for their leisure.


----------



## Serpion5

Iron Angel said:


> I liked the C'tan Did It theories. Made me feel good inside knowing all your successes were only possible through the intervention of star gods that will inevitably devour your soul for their leisure.


Rogue shards. All the _c'tan did it_ theories still work just fine.


----------



## SoulGazer

Serpion5 said:


> How about because there's no need to? The c'tan are not the focus of the new necron codex. There's no need to drop subtle hints of their shenanigans at every corner and fluff box.
> 
> There is a brief mention of rogue or unaccounted c'tan shards roaming the galaxy in the new dex, and that is all that is needed to make novels like _Nightbringer_ and _Mechanicum_ work just fine.


I started playing Necrons specifically because of the C'tan fluff. I didn't want to play Tomb Kings in Space. The vague references to rogue shards is just a bone they threw the old players, a consolation prize for retconing everything the Oldcron players liked about the army. Just so people could keep saying "It still works" even though, no, it really doesn't. The wording, the way the information on shards is presented, really emphasizes how everything you knew before is false information. "The Imperium has no idea what it's talking about," etc. It makes me a sad souless robot panda. :cray:


----------



## Deadeye776

No you guy's aren't listening. The new fluff doesn't work in conjunction with the old just because your willing to believe elephants can fly. If that didn't make sense to you than you understand our point. Where the hell does it say that we needed this shard crap to make the battle between the Emperor and Dragon? The book Mechanicum explained it completely as did the state of all the weakened C'tan. They were complete but starved for sustenance because of the previous cosmic environment. End of explanation. They were seriously weak.Also the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in 40k. Why does the Dragon need to be a shard to defeated? He gave the Chaos Gods a run for their money. 

This notion that Matt Ward has enriched the universe you guys have is bullshit. The Necrons and C'tan fluff could have expanded this universe by creating another tech and materium based faction. You could have had the xion's of the C'tan taking on Mechanicus adepts and Knights. Character development all around. How many Mechanicum characters are out there? Pretty slim. You could have had that developed as the Necrons tried to free the Void Dragon. There was already a story where they attempted it. The Deathwatch could have come back in their own series against this new ancient threat. Between the tyranids,orks,eldar/dark, and C'tan Necrons you could have a new series coming out. Now?These bastards are compliant. 

Before you had a race of immortals that if developed could have had the same status as Chaos or the tyranids. Now they are a moronic race of robots sitting on great powers. Oh by the way. Who cares if it's a cannon or a water gun? The fact that they utilized the natural powers of the universe means they have the science to make it happen. That combined with the shards puts them on a level that is unfair to any other race. Even if they don't have the C'tan death ray anymore they still have shards. Who else in this universe has anything that can touch those things? The closest would be Abbaddon with the Black Stone Fortresses. Obiously he'd help the Imperium or Eldar if push came to shove.


----------



## Sothot

But Matt Ward HAS expanded the universe- immensely. I'm an Oldcron player and I hated the C'tan. You had 4 flavours, (Actually 2 though, because let's face it, we know exactly as much about those ones as we know about how the C'tan were shattered. It's even starting to look like Mechanicus may have been dealing with some kind of chaos beastie ) each incredibly cliche and insanely over the top. Especially Nightbringer. I read his original fluff entry and counted no less than 8 eye rolls. They reeked of Mary Sue-ism. I never played with a C'tan because I just couldn't get behind them, tabletop and fluffwise.
Now, my army is led by an Oldcron themed Necron Lord. They worship and serve a Star God, gathering fragments of it to return it to power. It's not one of the original 4 because, suddenly, the army has endless possibilities and directions it can go. They aren't invincible immortal Mary Sues who want to kill everything...because...well...Star Gods! 
There were Lovecraftian themes about the Necrons that drew me into them originally. Now, the New C'tan have Lovecraft smeared all over them. The Necron Race has character, and is an alien faction with conflicts, purpose and drives, unlike before. I feel I oughta write Matt Ward a thank you letter, because all I read over here is hate on because things are different. And better.


----------



## Xisor

Deadeye776 said:


> No you guy's aren't listening. The new fluff doesn't work in conjunction with the old just because your willing to believe elephants can fly. If that didn't make sense to you than you understand our point. Where the hell does it say that we needed this shard crap to make the battle between the Emperor and Dragon? *The book Mechanicum explained it completely as did the state of all the weakened C'tan. They were complete but starved for sustenance because of the previous cosmic environment. End of explanation. *


You're still talking nonsense. That works for the Nightbringer because it's stated for the Nightbringer (IIRC) that it's weak on waking, groggy.

That isn't said, at all, in _Mechanicum_. What's said in _Mechanicum_ is, again:



> “I understand,” Dalia told Semyon. “*The Dragon… I don’t know what it is, but I know where it is.*”
> 
> “Do you?” asked Semyon. “Tell me.”
> 
> *“This cavern… everything in it. This is it. Or at least a sliver of it.”*
> 
> Semyon nodded. “A Tomb and prison all in one.”
> 
> “How?”
> 
> Semyon beckoned her over to the lectern and opened the book. “Look. Know.“


- Page 354, Mechanicum.


Sliver/shard. God/deity.

Trotting out "they were weakened!" is no excuse for 'there are only four C'tan, two of them known to be awake, one to be imprisoned by insanity, at least. Also their manifest forms can be destroyed by a few snipers.'

It's no more a flying elephant than 'they were splintered'. The case we're making is that 'they were splintered' not only accommodates the old lore (_Mechanicum_, the Deceiver on Naogeddon, the 'prison' of the Dyson Sphere, the Nightbringer on Pavonis), but it meshes with what people want: not just four, easily defeated by some tanks and a rabble of infantry alleged-Stargods. 

More'n that, it preserves the old state (four tremendous beings groggily re-coalescing their strength after aeons asleep). How? Because _*that is not dead which can eternal lie; and with strange aeons even death may die*_.

(That's the inspiration and theme for the C'tan as they were developed. C'tan/Ruinous Powers/Old Ones...Cthulhu/Elder or Outer Gods/Old Ones.)


----------



## Serpion5

Deadeye776 said:


> No you guy's aren't listening.


:laugh:

EDIT: Okay, I'll at least attempt to be productive with this post by saying everyone in this thread is well listening to everyone else (with maybe one now irrelevant exception).

You make the same argument. We make the same counter arguments. I think we're all familiar with each other's stances on this matter.


----------



## MEQinc

Deadeye776 said:


> Yeah, but if ants had a dematerializing ray to conquer the human race, you'd change your tune.


I'd be immensely surprised yes. However I wouldn't automatically dismiss it as bullshit. Nor, should Ant's ever decide to use biological weapons to destroy humanity I will not automatically assume that will mean they can easily defeat the great might of the Imperium of Cockroach and the fading glory of the Anteater Empire.



> The necrons possess god killing weapons.


The Necrons possess*ed* a device which was used to shatter (and in one instance destroy) a number of beings with immense powers. This device is not necessarily a weapon; the C'tan are oft-called gods but this doesn't really mean anything (as bolters have been used to kill 'gods' like daemons before); and the vast majority of the C'tan were not killed by the device. 



> The weapon will be able to defeat the combined might of the Imperium and the tyranid threat with enough left over to give Chaos a run for it's money.


Again, how does this follow? The Imperium, Tyranids and Chaos are all more numerous and extremely different in nature to the C'tan. A device which works on the C'tan, need not have any effect on the others. The C'tan are energy bound in metal; mortal races are blood bound in flesh. A device capable of causing immense and irreversible damage to computer systems (such as an EMP) may have no effect on living tissue. The two are not comparable.



> Nighbringer-Fear
> Void Dragon-Oblivion
> Outsider- Madness


This is exactly my point. By equating the C'tan with emotions you simply make them new Chaos Gods. True, there is no Chaos God which directly ties with Fear but adding a C'tan to do that does not create a new type of pantheon. Having the C'tan feed off and enjoy certain emotions is the same as the Chaos Gods who feed off and enjoy certain emotions. It does not make them a new and unique pantheon, it makes them an extension of an existing one. By cutting this pretentious tie to the warp the C'tan become a new and unique pantheon, and the universe is better for it.



> None of the C'tan dealt in wanton blood shed for worship. None of the Warp Gods wanted absolute fear of death or insanity from their subjects as they main emotional sustenance.


Yes they did. The Nightbringer imprinted itself onto racial consciousness' because it enjoyed being feared. The Outsider enslaved and tortured its followers to drive them to insanity. The Chaos Gods also do not deal in wanton bloodshed for worship, they strive to create and manipulate a specific emotion or emotional response in mortals, just as the old C'tan did.



> You obviously didn't read the part where they said he was starving and already weakened in mechanicus. They aready explained how he was defeated. Read it again.


I read it and, like many people, didn't understand it. And here's what I don't understand from your position. How can you accept that a God can be starved and weakened, and then scared and defeated; but not that it can be broken? Uriel Ventris, a mere-mortal, can bluff and intimidate the Nightbringer but the Necrons, who helped give him form, can't shard him?



> Doing it my way would have developed characters in the Deathwatch and Mechanicus as well as having your specialized characters in the Necrons.


Aside from the obvious problem that the Deathwatch and Mechanicus are in fact different factions than the Necrons, you can't give the Necrons individual personalities and motivations without weakening the C'tan's hold on them. 

Further, there is nothing preventing them from further expanding the conspiracy with the Void Dragon shard and its influence on the Mecahinum (thereby adding characters) nor the Deathwatch's attempt to combat them. The sharding of the C'tan does not reduce their influence on the other races, indeed it makes it possible for them to appear in a far greater number of stories, and allows for them to lose without it looking like the Necrons are being made into the galaxies whipping boys.



> Aso we are not creatures made out of energy so your explanation doesn't hold to a creature created by the birthing energies of the universe.


Okay... so a bullet has less mass than you and can still kill you (or are humans not made of mass?). I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Creation and destruction are not the same and do not require the same amount of effort/energy/whatever to achieve. Yes, the C'tan were birthed from the energies of the universe, so was quite literally everything, that does not mean it would take a second Big Bang to destroy them.



> 2. Yes they are. They have the C'tan shards, weapons that are capable of killing a c'tan, and their own technology. Who else has that kind of fire power?


Assuming they still have the device and that it is in fact the multipurpose, easy-to-use device you assume it is, no one. Without that device however most races can muster similar firepower, making up for what they lack in technology with superior numbers.



> Oh so they've given them a thread of the Orks "we can't unite" story. How original.


A lack of unity is pretty much one of the defining themes of 40k. No faction can be considered truly singular of purpose or operation, from the sprawling worlds of man and ork to the divided and lost people's of the eldar. Yes, the Necrons are part of that, but its not really a lack of originality (and it's no different from their original state, where the lack of unity was orchestrated by the C'tan instead of the Necrons themselves).



> Um, first dial it down a bit. The Eldar were apart of MANY races that were created to fight JUST the Necrons and C'tan. They were the only race left standing after, even with the enslaver plague. So don't attribute to much to their badassness.


The Eldar, as part of an alliance battled, and achieved military success against, the Necrons and the C'tan. True, I forgot to mention the 'alliance', which I doubt was very unified, but that doesn't take away from the facts. At the very birth of their race the Eldar crafted gods from dreams and fought the Necrons to a standstill. After surviving the apocalypse thus unleashed (one which drove the Necrons into hiding for billions of years) they continued to grow until they became the first galactic empire. By their whim stars lived and died, by their whim were alternate dimensions explored and *settled*, by their whims was a god created and reality itself sundered. 



> That last statement of your is bullshit. Never did the Eldar possess tech to defeat their own gods.


No, but they did possess the ability to create them. Besides which the Necron lack the technology to breach, channel or otherwise effect the warp; a technology which both the Eldar and humans have been quite successful at. Ergo, both these races are capable of feats of technology the Necrons aren't. I'm not saying their tech level is universally higher (it's been explicitly stated it isn't) but that wasn't my point. The Eldar can do things the Necrons can't and their empire in no way was weaker than the Necrons.



> See this is what I'm talking about. Aliens? From what planet? They were energy beings feeding on starts. They were the first sentient beings in creation, which means they technically predate the freaking Chaos Gods.


Aliens don't have to come from a specific planet. The C'tan came from stars, does that make them any less alien? I'd argue that it makes them more so, but it certainly doesn't mean they have to be Gods. Feeding on stars, like plants you mean? So the C'tan are space-borne conglomerations of re-purposed solar energy, they're still aliens. They can be catagorized, defined and understood; the Chaos Gods by their very definition cannot.

And since the warp exists without time, the Chaos Gods are kinda-sorta older than time itself (and possibly the universe, and ... eugh brain-cramp), so while the C'tan's material forms predate (in terms of real-space time) the first accredited appearance of the Ruinous Powers, as they are currently construed, does not make them in any way superior.



> They existed beyond space and time and could manipulate the universe and reality to their will.


But they don't. While they do have an increased ability to manipulate the universe (particularly space) to suit their whims they have no effect on reality and as far as I'm aware, no greater control over time than being to act really fast. Conversely the Chaos Gods, as already mentioned, by their very existence defy 'reality' and any concepts of space and time. That's why warp travel works, that's why the planets in the Eye make so little sense, because it's literally a battle between 'reality' (the materium) and 'imagination' (the warp). 



> The Nightbringer impressed the image of itself in the minds of nearly ever sentient creature in the universe to increase it's delight in Fear. The Void Dragon was considered the most powerful creature in the physical universe.


Khorne is present in the mind of each and every sentient creature (and likely many that aren't fully sentient) from its waking breath to its dying moment. It has no need to imprint itself on the minds of mortals for their minds are already created to accept, contain and sustain it. And while the Void Dragon is amongst the most powerful creature in the physical universe (and still would if it were ever brought together), Khorne is not bound by the limitations of the physical universe. It is a being of nothing more than hate, and yet it is capable of not only sentience (which, given its incomprehensible nature is impressive in and of itself) but also advanced thought, planning and manipulation of mortal races. Unbound by time Slaanesh fueled her own birth, unbound by rationality Tzeentch schemes against itself, unbound by death (something not even the C'tan can apparently escape) Nurgle gives everlasting life, unbound by conservation of mass Khorne's armies are never-ending. The C'tan can do things we are not yet capable of understanding but the Chaos Gods can do things that are provably impossible, because they are not bound by possibility.



> In truth, before this fluff was written the C'tan were the only faction in 40k with a legitimate way to defeat Chaos without killing every human in the galaxy. Plyons placed all around near warp gates would shut the warp off from the material realm forever. Yeah, who else has a plan that clean to stop Chaos? No one. They deserved better.


We have no idea what effect a galaxy full of pylons would have on Chaos or humanity. It's possible that Chaos would still be able to feed on emotions and simply have its ability to interact with and influence the material realm diminished. It's equally possible that human (and most sentient) minds would go with the warp if it were separated, thus causing them all to die. It's also possible that the two universes becoming separated would cause both to destabilize and collapse. So, in effect, we have no idea how 'clean' the C'tan's plan was. We also aren't privvy to the full extent of the Emperor's plan but he certainly seems to think it wouldn't result in the death of all humans. And since when does 40k give a faction what they deserve?



Deadeye776 said:


> Where the hell does it say that we needed this shard crap to make the battle between the Emperor and Dragon?


Maybe you didn't need it, though many felt the explanation given was pretty weak. But the thing is that the 'previous' explanation, that it was starving and weak, *still applies*; it has simply been expanded upon.



> The Necrons and C'tan fluff could have expanded this universe by creating another tech and materium based faction. You could have had the xion's of the C'tan taking on Mechanicus adepts and Knights. Character development all around. How many Mechanicum characters are out there? Pretty slim. You could have had that developed as the Necrons tried to free the Void Dragon. There was already a story where they attempted it. The Deathwatch could have come back in their own series against this new ancient threat. Between the tyranids,orks,eldar/dark, and C'tan Necrons you could have a new series coming out.


Again, all of these things are still possible. Look back over the story ideas you just suggested and tell me: where is the necessity for whole C'tan or completely enslaved Necrons? There isn't one. 



> The fact that they utilized the natural powers of the universe means they have the science to make it happen.


Yes but having the science to make something happen doesn't make it an instantly effective military solution.



> To add to that they have a weapon that can harness the "natural energies of the universe." No one has that tech anyhwhere, trust me I checked.


Well you clearly didn't check very hard because, to be pedantic about it, everything harnesses the natural energies of the universe (and to be less pedantic about it look at the Hadron Collider or an atomic bomb). Besides which, and I consider this to be a more impressive, other races can harness the unnatural energies of another universe, intuitively. 



> As a result of that weapon they also have some of the C'tan's shards which can harness a portion of the most powerful creatures in the universe.


And are thus much like the Avatars or Greater Daemons, which hold a portion of the most powerful creatures in existence (and not merely in our universe).



> With an arsenal like that they should be able to destroy solar systems.


And they can, a fact which makes them no more powerful than pretty much any other faction, who can and do destroy solar systems.



> Your speculating to make this rebellion and the tech and success more plausible. Sadly this won't float because Matt Ward never wrote it. You can think of a bunch of conspiracy theories to make this more acceptable to our side. Truth is is the facts are irrefutable. Matt Ward says that the C'tan and the Necrontyr couldn't defeat the Old Ones.


Matt Ward's statements do not conflict with or contradict the theories put forth in this thread, indeed some of the statements but forth by other (equally qualified) authors do lend weight to the theories. So until someone states explicitly that these theories are not true you are free to believe or not, but you cannot simply dismiss them. The facts are irrefutable but where there are no facts, such as here, logic and reasoning will have to suffice.


----------



## ckcrawford

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is what I mean about a lack of imagination. In terms of actual wording, there is only a sentence or two which narrates the shattering of the C'tan in the codex. Discrediting plausable theories because they arn't explicitly printed in black & white is just plain boring. If you maintain your current attitude I guarantee you'll find yourself moaning about all new editions to the lore. Honestly I don't know how you get anything out of the 40k universe if you remain as narrow-minded.



I don't think thats entirely fair. The funny thing about the C'tan from the beginning was the fact that they were living creatures able to make sense... (to a degree). At least it makes sense in a way a sun can make a black hole type logic. They sucked lots of energy of the sun. And then they started consuming souls. But the biggest reason they were able to maintain themselves and survive was due to their will and freedom. 

Now that has been taken away, and they are described by Matt Ward as creatures of _nearly_Unlimited powers. How is this possible?

They has used much of their energy fighting the Old Ones, then they were betrayed by their own armies. And even most of you guys agree they went up against countless necrons which in itself would use up lots of energy. When the necrons sharded them, I doubt they gave them a glass of souls or sun before they spent an enternity sleeping. Not to mention, they are sharded, they are a fraction from the whole. And now I am to believe these starving creatures have nearly unlimited power? That they can stand against the God Emperor who pretty much slapped chaos in the face and got away with it for a very long time?

It just doesn't add up. 

I doubt that the necrons would let them absorb power again, in fear of one rebelling against them. And if they did due to some "dire need." How long could these creatures run without dieing? I imagine this would require lots and lots of energy.

Most of you think the C'tan have been put down less. But in a sense they have been hypened. They can't be killed... even by living, amazing energies of the universe, and they are just a ticking time bombs waiting to escape their prisons. Sooner or later they will get out. Before our answer was they can be absorbed and drained like all energy. They would fear each other.

So back to that thing with imagination. How much do we have to imagine? I do actually like the fact that many of you are trying to make logical sense of it. We all like filling in the blanks. Lost chapters and legions for example. 

If the C'tan are anything right now, they are something in a codex without a purpose. What is the purpose of keeping these fellows like "Gods?" Why god-like? Why can't they just be like Avatars and Daemons?


----------



## Iron Angel

ckcrawford said:


> But in a sense they have been hypened.


Exactly. I like to think a Shard is as powerful now as a whole C'tan was in the last edition. Which means that whole C'tan are complete BAMFs. And when the Reclaimer faction finally reassembles the Deceiver, he will crush the inferior races of the galaxy, and absorb all the other C'tan shards and gain their power for his own, and be the sole ruler of this galaxy. And there is nothing you can do but watch as this inevitable end draws upon you like a thick sheet which blocks out the light and leaves you whimpering in the dark, wondering when you will be gifted your final breath and set free from glorious servitude to the Great One, the Master of Plots, the Lord of Deceit. To resist is futility. To hope is delusion. Know of his coming and despair!


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## Serpion5

ckcrawford said:


> I don't think thats entirely fair. The funny thing about the C'tan from the beginning was the fact that they were living creatures able to make sense... (to a degree). At least it makes sense in a way a sun can make a black hole type logic. They sucked lots of energy of the sun. And then they started consuming souls. But the biggest reason they were able to maintain themselves and survive was due to their will and freedom.


They never fed on souls. They fed on physical energy, be it the fusion of stars or the bioelectric nerve impulses of mortals, but never on souls. 



> Now that has been taken away, and they are described by Matt Ward as creatures of _nearly_Unlimited powers. How is this possible?
> 
> They has used much of their energy fighting the Old Ones, then they were betrayed by their own armies. And even most of you guys agree they went up against countless necrons which in itself would use up lots of energy. When the necrons sharded them, I doubt they gave them a glass of souls or sun before they spent an enternity sleeping. Not to mention, they are sharded, they are a fraction from the whole. And now I am to believe these starving creatures have nearly unlimited power? That they can stand against the God Emperor who pretty much slapped chaos in the face and got away with it for a very long time?


Each and every shard is still intricately tied to the very fabric of the universe. The codex describes the nature of the shards as still possessing the near unlimited power they always did, however they possess only a fraction of their minds and memories. 

It is entirely possible that many do not even realize the nature of their own existence at this point. Memories of the rebellion may not even be present. 



> I doubt that the necrons would let them absorb power again, in fear of one rebelling against them. And if they did due to some "dire need." How long could these creatures run without dieing? I imagine this would require lots and lots of energy.
> 
> Most of you think the C'tan have been put down less. But in a sense they have been hypened. They can't be killed... even by living, amazing energies of the universe, and they are just a ticking time bombs waiting to escape their prisons. Sooner or later they will get out. Before our answer was they can be absorbed and drained like all energy. They would fear each other.


I don't imagine any necron lord would lose much sleep if a c'tan shard happened to flitter out and die. Considering that many endured for a little over sixty million years, this may not be a factor even worth considering. Many stars can burn for billions of years and the c'tan were said to have fed upon the power of many stars.

Or... 

Perhaps the c'tan don't physically need to feed in order to survive, given the nature of their existence? Perhaps they do it only to quench their desire to be worshipped and flout extra power? 



> So back to that thing with imagination. How much do we have to imagine? I do actually like the fact that many of you are trying to make logical sense of it. We all like filling in the blanks. Lost chapters and legions for example.
> 
> If the C'tan are anything right now, they are something in a codex without a purpose. What is the purpose of keeping these fellows like "Gods?" Why god-like? Why can't they just be like Avatars and Daemons?


As they are now they are a dormant threat. They were defeated because of their arrogance. Perhaps the necrons in turn will be defeated by the same token, and the c'tan will reclaim their dominance? 

The necrons are immortal, but they cannot reproduce. Each one lost is irreplaceable. If the c'tan can play the long game, and we know they can shards or not, then their threat is a matter of when, not how, not if. When. 

Happy Iron A?


----------



## SoulGazer

So as far as I can tell, this debate has two sides:

A) The Newcron codex is so vague that anything you want makes sense if you fill in the logic errors by inferring certain things that can't be disproved due to said vagueness.

and

B) That's retarded. This is just badly written crap designed to sell models and you guys just won't admit it. :angry:


As fun as endless debate loops are, this must end some time. I also count myself among the angry nerd side because, well, I did rage IRL when I first read about my new Tomb Kings in Space army. I was perfectly happy playing anti-Chaos Terminators with Star gods for characters until this crap came along. *Sigh* Still, I'm glad to have been a part of this massive thread that will hopefully be a good read for people in the future. GG guys. :friends:


----------



## Xisor

ckcrawford said:


> If the C'tan are anything right now, they are something in a codex without a purpose. What is the purpose of keeping these fellows like "Gods?" Why god-like? Why can't they just be like Avatars and Daemons?


I'd argue that's precisely what's happened: the only way to 'deal' with them, from a Necron narrative view, is to transform them to be more like Avatars and Daemons. They're in a very strict way: primordial beings. This isn't a huge difference in terminology (though in strict 'scientific' terms they're different) from how the Cabal in the HH talk about Chaos - the Primordial Annihilator.

Khaine only exists inasmuch a manner as this:
- The Craftworld Eldar & Dark Eldar embrace their warmongering, murderous ways. Out of necessity and pleasure.
- Also there's peculiar daemon-things which, when the Young King is sacrificed, wake up and possess giant Iron Statues with immense psychic might.

So how does the Nightbringer exist?
- The Necrons who still are influenced by his... legacy. The dynasties still worshipped him, the C'tan appeared in the form of the Necrontyr's old gods... it doesn't really matter. Stargods is just a name to them: they're the C'tan, they're impossible things...and that's what happened to them. They've left a legacy.
- Also there's these big living metal monstrosities which have untold power over reality but are broadly quite anarchic things to try'n deal with... they lie, they're jealous, they want power, they'll consume your essence...

I'm not willing to say "The C'tan and the Old Ones are the same!" ( :shok: ), but I am willing to entertain the idea that, ultimately, there's a hell of a lot more that unites the pantheons, at least on a symbolic, hand-wavy, semiotic level, than there are things that differentiate them.

If, however, you divide things up like:
- The Old Ones were ancient psychic aliens.
- The Eldar gods are just aspects of the species' beliefs. Avatars are a symbolic tool, not an actual sliver of the god any more than one person's idea is an avatar of the cultural zeitgeist.
- The Chaos Gods are different.
- The C'tan are star-eating aliens.
- The Hive Mind is <whatever>
- The Emperor is a supreme human with immense psychic power, bolstered by the latent psychic mass of humanity. 


You start penning things off and hemming them in, there's not a lot of overlap: what does the Emperor have to do with the Chaos Gods? What are the Old Ones? Are any of them... _needed_? What are the Legion of the Damned... daemons? Emperor's daemons?

I think there's an... angle, that can be obtained, a slant to looking at it that makes it make sense. And it's not difficult, it's not throwing the brain through hoops or micro-reading every little detail to look for a loop-hole.

Much the opposite.

---

*How're the like Daemons and Avatars?*

Because we simply don't know enough about daemons and avatars. They're bits of the warp. The C'tan are bits of reality. The 'god' bit are a nomenclature thing to be appended to massive problems/phenomena, but these phenomena do have peculiarities linking them.

The Deceiver, the Laughing God. The Emperor, Ynnead. 

I find the ... 'lack of purpose' for the C'tan to be happily more akin to the 'lack of purpose' for the Chaos Gods. I mean, what's the point of them?

(The main thrust here is 'what is the connection between the Old Ones and the C'tan'? The Old Ones inadvertently create Chaos. Perhaps they inadvertently 'created' the enmity of the C'tan?)


----------



## Deadeye776

They say I keep making the same arguments only because you all keep vomitting the same rebuttal. Your saying this has enriched the universe. I'm saying it's only enriched one faction at the cost of the characterization of the C'tan. They are no longer Gods and are vast shadows of their former selves. Say what you want at the power they weild now but being the fastest kid at the special olympics is still nothing to brag about. I never compared them to normal characters but to the top tier like the gods or the hive mind. Now that level (whether you had them equal,better, or just below) is gone. Instead you have the newly arisen Necron Empire. Who benefits?

The Necrons before made attacks on Mars. The Adeptus Mechanicus could have been developed as well. Now? That's not an option. Why would they awake an adversary?There was the story with Abbaddon and the daemon who told him about the Dragon.How bad ass would it be to have a joint Deathwatch/Grey Knight task force to stop the Despoiler from awakening the Dragon? I guess Serpion thinks that's a weak story along with Cote and the rest. You guys would rather have stories never told like an Astartes chapter having to join forces with enemies (Necrons) to defeat a greater enemy (tyranids).The Necrons use to represent the greater enemy. Please Matt Ward, give us more ground breaking stories about xenos and astartes teaming up. We've never heard them before. This is such a better direction than the original "The Necrons are the harbringers of the Ultimate Doom of the Awakening Star Gods" plot. Why develop that plot? Does it sound badassed to just give the Necrons the personalities they have now with the same agenda? It did to me. You could have had the personality and the original story all wrapped in one. 

Digging deeper into characterization is what the BL excels at. It's happened with a lot of armies you thought you knew. It takes a book or story to develop it. Now what do we have? A lame story of another broken empire that needs to unite to gain dominance (orks) that has broken or defeated gods (eldar) and is also in a state of decline because of past events (the Imperium). I don't want you guys to think this is bullshit shined up and repackaged to wow you, I want you to know it is. This crap was pieced together and gift wrapped to make you feel it's new. All they had to do to make these guys unique was continue and develop the original story, it wasn't broken it just needed to be developed. Instead you took a fillet mingon and threw it away to hand me left-overs pieced together from meals I've already eaten.Enjoy it. Next time they'll take pieces from the dark eldar, Imperium, and orks to update the Tau. I'm sure when we complain it the same guys will tell us we are being narrow.


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## Iron Angel

Deadeye you silly. Necrons can't be the ultimate evil. Thats reserved for CHAOS! They aren't Chaos Spess Mehrens! They're just dumb xenos! We can't have xenos able to beat SPESS MEHRENS! Get with the program. Seriously.


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## Xisor

Deadeye776 said:


> The Necrons before made attacks on Mars. The Adeptus Mechanicus could have been developed as well. Now? That's not an option. Why would they awake an adversary?


You're talking bollocks here, again.

The Necrons attacked Mars. That's still happened. And could quite possibly be a direct result of _Mechanicum_, just 10k years later. We know that _something_ escapes at the end of the novel - the book. The five Necron Shrouds which made it to Mars are in no-way diminished this time.

We don't know what they did first time around.

We still don't know. That's not changed, the awesome prowess of _an enemy of the Imperium landing troops on Mars_ hasn't been undone.





Deadeye776 said:


> There was the story with Abbaddon and the daemon who told him about the Dragon.How bad ass would it be to have a joint Deathwatch/Grey Knight task force to stop the Despoiler from awakening the Dragon?


Small minded, much? What happened not long after the publication of said quote? 

The Despoiler launched his Thirteenth Black Crusade. Where's it aimed? We don't know. What had the Twelfth Black Crusade acquired? Blackstone Fortresses. What happened during the Thirteenth Black Crusade? Eldrad's Ulthwe forces and the Necrons both went to surprising lengths to disable the damn things. What was Ahriman doing? Trying to break into the Webway and get to the Black Library. 

The trouble is the Necrons have greater enemies now too - themselves, for one. But the Necrons are themselves greater enemies.

The Necrons are still amongst the most potent foes of Chaos - the Null Fields still exist. Necrons are still extreme foes, you get Commissars becoming more human, you get Sisters making chums with folks who've been in close contact with aliens.

What we're contending, I suppose, is that this possibility for awesome stories _hasn't been lost_.

As it happens, both myself and well-regarded game developer and author happen to share *very high praise* for the recent Dark Eldar background changes. Some details significantly changed, some fundamentals a bit altered, some massive expansions made, some bits refocussed. Now they're Khainites, in part.

I enjoyed Necrons, I enjoyed Dark Eldar. I enjoyed _The Emperor's Gift_ which, shock bloody horror, Matthew Ward didn't obliterate. Induced ADB to rewrite his novel, perhaps, but it delivered an utterly stonking novel at the end of it.


----------



## Deadeye776

> Xisor said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're talking bollocks here, again.
> 
> The Necrons attacked Mars. That's still happened. And could quite possibly be a direct result of _Mechanicum_, just 10k years later. We know that _something_ escapes at the end of the novel - the book. The five Necron Shrouds which made it to Mars are in no-way diminished this time.
> 
> We don't know what they did first time around.
> 
> We still don't know. That's not changed, the awesome prowess of _an enemy of the Imperium landing troops on Mars_ hasn't been undone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely nothing you said here seemed to be in reference to anything I was getting at. I don't even know where to begin to respond. I never said it didn't happen. I used it as an example to develop the point I was making. I'm really sittin here wondering how what you said makes sense in regards to what I was talking about. Maybe I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you got what I was saying. My point is that you said everyone was saying that the old fluff was dull and boring. I was trying to use those storeis to say that the plots that had already been laid as a foundation could have been followed without taking it such a cliched direction. With that in mind, why would they follow those stories anymore given the new fluff?
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> Small minded, much? What happened not long after the publication of said quote?
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> The Despoiler launched his Thirteenth Black Crusade. Where's it aimed? We don't know. What had the Twelfth Black Crusade acquired? Blackstone Fortresses. What happened during the Thirteenth Black Crusade? Eldrad's Ulthwe forces and the Necrons both went to surprising lengths to disable the damn things. What was Ahriman doing? Trying to break into the Webway and get to the Black Library.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is Horus's son black crusade aimed at. Everyone on the board, let's take a second. Call in the detectives. Where did Horus, Abbaddon, and by extension the Chaos Gods want to eventually take over. I'm not going to insult you so take a second and figure that one out on your own. The black stone fortresses failed to stop the C'tan's before but they are dangerous. Again your all over the place with the eldar and Ahriman.
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> The trouble is the Necrons have greater enemies now too - themselves, for one. But the Necrons are themselves greater enemies.
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> Click to expand...
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> They were always greater enemies. They always had better tech than anyone in the universe. They always had ancient knowledge about things that predated even the eldar. What's changed? They went from being the most tech advanced race in 40k to the most tech advanced race in 40k. Though the story changed and their status as slaves has they still remain the same type of threat.
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> The Necrons are still amongst the most potent foes of Chaos - the Null Fields still exist. Necrons are still extreme foes, you get Commissars becoming more human, you get Sisters making chums with folks who've been in close contact with aliens.
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> Click to expand...
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> I have absolutely no idea where your going with any of this. My point was they use to be on the same level of an ultimate threat with the tyranids and Chaos. They were the threat to ally against because of their prominence. Now they ally with Astartes against tyranids to pull out a win. Originally you would have never thought they would need anyones help to achieve victory.
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> What we're contending, I suppose, is that this possibility for awesome stories _hasn't been lost_.
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> As it happens, both myself and well-regarded game developer and author happen to share *very high praise* for the recent Dark Eldar background changes. Some details significantly changed, some fundamentals a bit altered, some massive expansions made, some bits refocussed. Now they're Khainites, in part.
> 
> I enjoyed Necrons, I enjoyed Dark Eldar. I enjoyed _The Emperor's Gift_ which, shock bloody horror, Matthew Ward didn't obliterate. Induced ADB to rewrite his novel, perhaps, but it delivered an utterly stonking novel at the end of it.
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> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 
Okay, no idea where you pulling these examples of. I haven't read Emperor's gift and even if it was still the best 40k novel of all time wouldn't have any bearing on this debate. He ruined the C'tan fluff and took a cliche and mundane route to do it. That story didn't blow my mind at all. Obviously I'm not the only one. The debate here is that the route taken has limited the mythos of the C'tan. They were practically undefeatable unless you were a god. With the Eldar Gods and the Emperor gone, who would save us? Now? Doesn't matter, the Necrons have a hold on them. Not only that but the Necrons have been made more human now with emotions and fears. Those things bring a certain amount of weakness to a race that could have been the 40k equivalent to the Borg. 


Okay b


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## Akatsuki13

You keep on ragging on Matt Ward and what he did with the C'tan while saying there were better ways so I say prove it. Give us a clear outline on how you would have done their fluff with two things in mind, raising the necrons to greater prominence in the army and providing us with more variety of C'tan instead of just the two as well as limiting their power so they better match their TT stats. Show us who you think they could have done it better while achieving the same basic result.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm saying it's only enriched one faction at the cost of the characterization of the C'tan.


What characterisation did the C'tan have that they don't have now?



Deadeye776 said:


> There was the story with Abbaddon and the daemon who told him about the Dragon.How bad ass would it be to have a joint Deathwatch/Grey Knight task force to stop the Despoiler from awakening the Dragon?


Even if the old lore still stood that would have never happened anyway because the Despoiler would have never reached the Sol System. So thats irrelevant.

And why can't that still happen with the new lore? The Despoiler is still aware of the _Dragon of Mars_ - which has now been revealed to be a shard of the Void Dragon. Once again, nothing has changed in this respect: your grey knight/deathwatch story is still a potential.



Deadeye776 said:


> The Necrons use to represent the greater enemy. Please Matt Ward, give us more ground breaking stories about xenos and astartes teaming up. We've never heard them before. This is such a better direction than the original "The Necrons are the harbringers of the Ultimate Doom of the Awakening Star Gods" plot.


I don't know why people put so much stock in said alliance (although it wasn't an alliance at all - more a necessary temporary cessation of hostilities) it is hardly a major plot point of the new lore.



Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, no idea where you pulling these examples of. I haven't read Emperor's gift and even if it was still the best 40k novel of all time wouldn't have any bearing on this debate. He ruined the C'tan fluff and took a cliche and mundane route to do it. That story didn't blow my mind at all. Obviously I'm not the only one.


I believe what _Xisor_ was referring to in regards to the _Emperor's Gift_ was that AD-B had to alter things with the book to fit in with the new Grey Knight lore, and (shock) it still made a fantastic story. I believe the point is that the new lore hasn't reduced the potential for great stories. In regards to the Necrons I believe it has only increased said potential.



Deadeye776 said:


> The debate here is that the route taken has limited the mythos of the C'tan. They were practically undefeatable unless you were a god. With the Eldar Gods and the Emperor gone, who would save us? Now? Doesn't matter, the Necrons have a hold on them.


In my mind they are still practically undefeatable, the Silent King admits as much: "Indeed, he had known the C'tan's ultimate destruction to be impossible and had drawn his plans accordingly..." & "Alas, the C'tan were immortal star-spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality and therefore nigh impossible to destroy." The Necrons, with the greatest technology any sentient race has ever achieved, admitted that the C'tan could not be destroyed. If they can't be destroyed and they are immortal perhaps you could argue that the reunification of the shards is only a matter of time. The C'tan are still god-like, they still wield "near unlimited power", and have still had the same effect on the galaxy that their predecessors of the old lore had; creation of the Mechanicum, destruction of the Talismans of Vaul, initiation of the 12th Black Crusade, potentially aided the Despoiler in becoming the Warmaster of Chaos et cetera. Some of these events would suggest that certainly not all shards are accounted for by the Necrons and several are abroad in the galaxy scheming.

Only the Flayer was utterly destroyed in the sharding process and we don't know the specifics of that phenomenon so we can't really comment.

One potential of the new Necrons is to still have Necron factions/dynasties that worship the C'tan. Perhaps they have made it their mission to release as many shards as possible in an attempt to reunite them. Or perhaps during _The Great Sleep_ a shard was able to escape confinement and lord over a tomb world or dynasty. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Not only that but the Necrons have been made more human now with emotions and fears. Those things bring a certain amount of weakness to a race that could have been the 40k equivalent to the Borg.


Only the Necron Lords and other prominent individuals maintain a true sense of consciousness and emotion. Most Necrons (like the old lore) still do not.



Akatsuki13 said:


> You keep on ragging on Matt Ward and what he did with the C'tan while saying there were better ways so I say prove it. Give us a clear outline on how you would have done their fluff with two things in mind, raising the necrons to greater prominence in the army and providing us with more variety of C'tan instead of just the two as well as limiting their power so they better match their TT stats. Show us who you think they could have done it better while achieving the same basic result.


This I second.


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## MEQinc

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm saying it's only enriched one faction at the cost of the characterization of the C'tan.


By enriching one faction, without a loss of characterization amongst the C'tan or any other faction, the entire universe has been enriched.



> They are no longer Gods and are vast shadows of their former selves. Say what you want at the power they weild now but being the fastest kid at the special olympics is still nothing to brag about. I never compared them to normal characters but to the top tier like the gods or the hive mind. Now that level (whether you had them equal,better, or just below) is gone.


They are still gods, their power (in total) has not been diminished. They have been broken into pieces, which limits the total power they can bring to bear at one time but does not reduce the amount of power they possess, indeed by allowing them to be in multiple places at once it makes them potentially even more dangerous. They are still at the level of gods, they just manifest at the level of Greater Daemons, you know exactly like the other gods. And also, completely off-topic, depending on the category people at the Special Olympics can run damn fast and winning medals there is still very much an achievement worth celebrating.



> The Necrons before made attacks on Mars. The Adeptus Mechanicus could have been developed as well. Now? That's not an option.


Why is it not an option? There are still factions of the Necrons which revere the C'tan and all the Necrons recognize the power the shards have, why would they risk one falling into the hands of perhaps their most powerful enemy? The Necron attack on Mars still happened, it has not been removed from canon, and there are still reasons for it to have happened and to continue happening.



> How bad ass would it be to have a joint Deathwatch/Grey Knight task force to stop the Despoiler from awakening the Dragon?


Pretty badass, though highly improbable. 



> I guess Serpion thinks that's a weak story along with Cote and the rest.


No one thinks it's a weak story, we just don't see why it can't still happen (barring the near impossibility of Abaddon actually breaching Sol). This story does not require the Dragon of Mars to be the entire Void Dragon.



> The Necrons use to represent the greater enemy.


The Necrons do represent *a *greater enemy but the thing about 40k is that there are many great enemies. So when faced with two great threats do you try to murder them both or do you *temporarily *aid the only other rational force? The Tyranids do not necessarily represent a greater threat than the Necrons, it simply happened that in one story, one hive fleet posed a sufficient threat to force two former enemies to become temporary teammates. The only thing preventing a reverse scenario, with the Tyranids and Imperium teaming up to defeat the Necrons, is the fact that the Tyranids are mindless beasts.



> Does it sound badassed to just give the Necrons the personalities they have now with the same agenda? It did to me. You could have had the personality and the original story all wrapped in one.


But you can't. In order to give the Necrons personality you have to make them more than slaves and/or mindless robots. In order to do this you have to reduce the control the C'tan have over them. You cannot give the Necrons personalities whilst maintaining the 'serve my gods without question' back-story they had before. 



> All they had to do to make these guys unique was continue and develop the original story, it wasn't broken it just needed to be developed.


It was broken. There was no where further they could've developed it. Mindless robots enslaved to ancient gods who wish to devour all life, that was the entirety of their story. How do you develop it, give it character, when the entire character is spelled out already. Mindless robots cannot be given character because they're mindless. The C'tan still had the option for character but given that there were only four of them that left pretty slim options.



Deadeye776 said:


> My point is that you said everyone was saying that the old fluff was dull and boring. I was trying to use those storeis to say that the plots that had already been laid as a foundation could have been followed without taking it such a cliched direction. With that in mind, why would they follow those stories anymore given the new fluff?


Because, as you say, these plots are potentially interesting. We're not claiming that the old fluff was boring but that the old Necrons lacked character. The C'tan had some interesting stuff going on but the Necrons were little more than bit players in their own codex. The codex would've been better titled The Armies of the C'tan, because that's what it was about. Now Codex: Necrons is actually about the Necrons and provides ways for them to be characterful and interesting without reducing the possibilities for C'tan conspiracies. 



> Where is Horus's son black crusade aimed at. Everyone on the board, let's take a second. Call in the detectives. Where did Horus, Abbaddon, and by extension the Chaos Gods want to eventually take over. I'm not going to insult you so take a second and figure that one out on your own.


The Chaos Gods have little interest in conquering Terra (I assume that's where you were going with this). Abaddon has launched several black crusades thus far and very few of them have been aimed at Terra. Each seems more intent on acquiring rare and powerful weapons than on conquering Terra. So while it's quite possible that Abaddon is aimed at Terra it's equally possible he's aimed somewhere else, perhaps Mars (which happens to be really, really close to Terra anyway) to acquire the Dragon. 



> What's changed? They went from being the most tech advanced race in 40k to the most tech advanced race in 40k. Though the story changed and their status as slaves has they still remain the same type of threat.


So then what's your complaint? That they have personality now? I truly fail to see how having compelling characters makes a narrative poorer.



> He ruined the C'tan fluff and took a cliche and mundane route to do it. That story didn't blow my mind at all. Obviously I'm not the only one. The debate here is that the route taken has limited the mythos of the C'tan. They were practically undefeatable unless you were a god.


The C'tan have not been ruined. They retain exactly the same powers and personalities as they did under the old fluff. They are unkillable and have access to 'near unlimited power', just like before. Now however we can reconcile these abilities with the fact that they can be defeated on the battlefield, a possibility which did exist under the previous lore. Their mythos has not been limited simply because they are not in complete control of their minions, rather it has been given a unique twist and the possibility for some truly shattering revelations (if it turns out the C'tan/Deceiver were behind the whole thing).



> Not only that but the Necrons have been made more human now with emotions and fears. Those things bring a certain amount of weakness to a race that could have been the 40k equivalent to the Borg.


People relate with emotions, its called empathy, and they sympathize with weakness. Its very hard to get people to sympathize with and thus support a race of emotionless killer robots. The Necrons suffered from this by having a relatively small fanbase. GW is a company, they exist to sell people armies and most people don't buy armies they can't relate to. The Borg did not have to be sympathized with, people weren't supposed to like them or care what happened to them, they were ultimately a faceless threat. Something to be fought and killed simply because it existed. Because GW takes the position where all its factions are playable they cannot have faceless threats. Even Chaos, at its highest level completely faceless, has personality and motives that can be understood and sympathized with. I can sympathize with the emotions that would drive someone to Chaos and I can feel what the Traitor Legions feel when they attack the Imperium. I cannot feel what the Necrons feel, because they feel nothing, and so I cannot put myself in their shoes. Maybe that didn't matter to you but it matters to a lot of people. So GW made the Necrons more human so that more humans would accept them.


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## Iron Angel

Ultimately, no matter what anyone thinks of the fluff, it is what it is and bitching won't do anything.

Did I like the old fluff more than the new? You bet your ass. Do I see opportunity in the new fluff though? Absolutely. It boils down to how creative you are with the fluff that GW has given you.


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