# could we take on the imperium military



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

the god emperor thread got me thinking

if the world militaries united against a space invasion by the imperium (full powered) could we last against them?

maybe even defeat them


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I think they'd have us out numbered a bit


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think they'd have us out numbered a bit


We'd run out of weapons & ammo before they ran out of Guardsmen.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

I think out numbered and out gunned in most aspects. But if we had similiar numbers our lesser trained armies vs the gaurd and elites vs the marines and whatnot i think we would still lose


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

We would win, I'd kick the Imperium's ass. I had Taco Bell for dinner so my gas alone could choke and kill the entire Ultramarines chapter.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

Assuming the usual physics problem metaphorical "frictionless in a vacuum" kind of thing, in this case man-to-man, tank to tank, so forth.

I think we'd crush the Imperium's military. Their infantry tactics are singularly terrible (they rely WAY too much on either static defense or overwhelming numbers at the cost of individual prowess aside from Stormtroopers). 

Laser weapons cauterize their own wounds. We don't use bullets because they're super cool, we use them because a hollowpoint round will blow a hole the size of a fist through a dude, and AP rounds will cause a great hole that'll bleed badly. A lasgun won't do that. 

Their air force is big, bulky, and relies on visual range to fight. The last time our jet fighters NEEDED visual range to engage the enemy was Vietnam.

Their armor is hugely ineffective- the Leman Russ' side skirts have an angle of approximately 0 degrees. That means whatever armor they have on it, the Leopard II or Merkeva's will be vastly superior thanks to the angles of the plates. The battle cannon is more of an artillery weapon than a proper tank killer. 

The Imperial Guard only exists to soak up the damage while the Astartes or elite units move into position- without those elements, say battalion to battalion in the middle of Kentucky, they'd get wasted.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Side of a Leo II and Merkava are vertical as well ?

Is Ceramiite inferior to Chobham Armour ?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Is it just me or does this (and another of Emperorguard's recent threads) sound very similar to ones he posted some time ago in Fluff?


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Side of a Leo II and Merkava are vertical as well ?
> 
> Is Ceramiite inferior to Chobham Armour ?



Sure, let's just ignore the 1.38 _meter_ difference in skirt height- as well as the fact that the Russ's front armor isn't particularly sloped either, and has an angular, flat turret, and sponsons that would trap shells, and focus on that. 

And ceramite is a ceramic composite- the lower quality version is used to make Guard flak armor. It's main principle (according to Lexicanum) is it disperses heat very well. It does say it's resistant to shock, but I'd hazard that a sabot round hitting a Russ dead on in it's flat face would go right through it and out the other end.

Oops, also forgot- the Russ's max speed _on_ road is a staggering 35 kph, or around half of what a modern MBT can manage.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Is it just me or does this (and another of Emperorguard's recent threads) sound very similar to ones he posted some time ago in Fluff?


Probably.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Calistrasza said:


> Sure, let's just ignore the 1.38 _meter_ difference in skirt height- as well as the fact that the Russ's front armor isn't particularly sloped either, and has an angular, flat turret, and sponsons that would trap shells, and focus on that.
> 
> And ceramite is a ceramic composite- the lower quality version is used to make Guard flak armor. It's main principle (according to Lexicanum) is it disperses heat very well. It does say it's resistant to shock, but I'd hazard that a sabot round hitting a Russ dead on in it's flat face would go right through it and out the other end.
> 
> Oops, also forgot- the Russ's max speed _on_ road is a staggering 35 kph, or around half of what a modern MBT can manage.


You comparing scales ? lol

Point is there is no frame of reference between real tanks of today and the 40k tanks.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You comparing scales ? lol
> 
> Point is there is no frame of reference between real tanks of today and the 40k tanks.



Look at the size dimensions here.

Then here.

And if you'd like, here.

The Russ is a full 1.38m taller than the Leopard, and 1.72m taller than the Merkeva, the two tanks I initially mentioned. The Lexicanum page also includes the max speed of the Russ, which I mentioned in my second post.

Edit: Not going to clog up this thread with semantics, if you want to continue this, can we do it via private message?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Why would they bother with a ground fight when they can just commit exterminus against us from orbit?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The only things you need to worry about 

Lehman Russ - fictional 
M1 - Reality

So the "tech specs" are really meaningless particularly when you see things like they are the same weight but the LR is twice the volume of the M1.

So all we can go off is the "fluff" descriptions of how the weapons work and try to make a real world comparison based on that. 

Now, from the link you provided 

"The Leman Russ' armour is not the most sophisticated but is practical and rugged, allowing it to weather the harshest environments or enemy fire. A reinforced cast plasteel hull and turret with ferro-steel armour plating combine to make it proof against all but the most deadly attacks. Even impacts powerful enough to lurch the tank several meters sideways will fail to penetrate through its tough hide, though such attacks can damage secondary systems such as the forward scopes and leave the crew stunned."

Now the M1 can resist, just, a frontal hit from an APFSDS round but that hit doesn't move the tank in anyway. 

_Conclusion- Lehman Russ has superior armour._

"The main gun of the Leman Russ is its turret-mounted Battle Cannon, a 120mm smoothbore gun which can equally decimate enemy infantry and tanks. A water-cooled jacket surrounds the cannon while gyrostabilisers ensure accurate targeting while on the move. Aiming the weapon done through a dedicated periscope with a 45° field of vision and is assisted with Targeter gear such as laser-rangefinders. Auspex guidance such as landscape readers and crosswind indicators provide additional information to assist in locating and targeting the enemy. "

_Conclusion - The Leman Russ has a fire control system that is similar to the M1 in all key areas but has the added advantage of a "landscape reader" ....... what ever that might be._

"The Battle cannon is a larger and heavier version of the autocannon, its size restricting its use to vehicles only. It is the primary weapon of the Leman Russ Battle Tank, where its explosive shells can decimate both infantry and other armour"

From the Codex: IG Leman Russ Frontal Armour 14, Battle Cannon S8

Thus like the M1 the Battle Cannon will not penetrate it's own frontal armour,just. (Ignore the Vanquisher Cannon which might actually be a closer match to the M256)
As we have seen the LR armour is superior to the M1 ergo the Battle Cannon can penetrate the M1 frontally and possibly quite easily. I have no idea on the range comparison between the 2 but as well all know the BC has a very long range in comparison to other things on the 40k battlefield.

_Conclusion - The Battle Cannon is a superior weapon to the M256 of the M1 firing "boot"._

"While a slow vehicle the tank's track arrangement means it exerts a low amount of ground pressure which, combined with fine regenerative steering, allows it to perform almost balletic maneuvers"

_Conclusion - The LR has similar mobility to the M1_

So on the balance of it the Leman Russ is likely to be a superior or at the very least comparable weapon to the current MBT's if we take the M1 as a reasonable representation of our best. Of course the vast majority of armour that the world of today can field against the 40k invaders will be considerably inferior to the latest generation MBT's

Overall there for we cannot say with any surety that modern weapons systems are automatically superior to 40k guard and their weight of numbers would be telling.

_Conclusion - they would roll us in pretty short order with both quantity and quality._


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

If you say so.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

You are comparing the Russ to current tanks without accounting for the strength of its alloys or the thickness of its plating.

Sloped armour works because it increases the relative thickness of the plating that a weapon needs to penetrate without increasing weight, its a nifty trick, first seen really on the T-34. But it works because it improves relative thickness, without sacrificing weight or speed. We don't know how thick the Russ armour is, or the metal composition it is made from. If its twice the thickness of modern tanks it has the advantage in armour regardless, before you take in consideration the alloy its made from.

As far as lasguns (Or flashlights) they are more than powerful enough to blow limbs clear off unarmoured opponents, they are better and more reliable than bullet based guns 

I'd think the imperium would win pretty easily, before a few marines or a titan or super heavy became involved


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Barnster said:


> We don't know how thick the Russ armour is, or the metal composition it is made from.


To be fair the link above does provide a thickness for the armour and it is less than the M1.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

Unless you (or Magpie) can offer the specifications, any assumption you make reading into the codex is going to be just that- an assumption. If we _assume_ that the armor's twice as thick as a modern MBT, sure it's going to be better (despite being essentially a box on treads). If we _assume_ that a "landscape reader" is better than GPS and SATNAV, then sure it's going to be at least equal. 

I'll go ahead right on back to the point that whatever the merits of the lasgun, it doesn't do "bleeding out". All you can hope for with a lasgun is structural damage, and humans are fairly durable when it comes to just flat out tissue damage. Autoguns might be more useful against conventional militaries today. 

Either way, I'm going to chalk this one down to ultimately a matter of opinion. Unless someone wants to finance a Leman Russ and we can figure it out for sure, it's late, and I don't think either of us is going to convince the other.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The Lasgun: "The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion"

So we are getting a secondary effect rather than "just" burning a hole clean through, which I'd reckon would be enough to put a man down anyway and don't forget that a laser will defeat modern ballistic vests.


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## darknightdrako (Mar 26, 2010)

Even if the Imperium armed all their guardsmen with pointed chopsticks, they still have better odds of wining against us. Haha


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a misconception about how lasers work on human flesh. Wounds woud not be quarterised. You would get explosive evaporation. Think of is like throwing a spot of water in a boiling fryer. All that blood and fat instantly becoming a gas contained inside a a bag of skin with only 2 very small exit points. It would be messy.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

since even their space marines would outnumber all of todays world effective military, YES and dont forget, Titans, baneblades, orbital bombardments. exterminatus. 


we'd be floored in no time.


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## heretical by nature (Sep 22, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> since even their space marines would outnumber all of todays world effective military, YES and dont forget, Titans, baneblades, orbital bombardments. exterminatus.
> 
> 
> we'd be floored in no time.


actually, im not sure they would, keeping in mind that astartes must adhere to the strict '1000 to a chapter' rule, im pretty sure they would struggle to match china's army let alone the worlds.

however irrelevant of that im pretty sure a military around 40,000 years into the future would have no problem wooping our asses..


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

heretical by nature said:


> however irrelevant of that im pretty sure a military around 40,000 years into the future would have no problem wooping our asses..


I agree, if you look back 40,000 years ago from today you see the height of weapons tech was the slightly sharpened stick and the low chafe loin cloth ..... against body armour and assault rifles.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

As others have said the lasgun is specifically said to cause explosive evaporation. It craters a man's face, blows him limbs off. They're not causing neat little holes. 

As for the Leman Russ, yes it's poorly designed (but then it was designed by fantasy gaming miniature enthusiasts, not hard sci ex military types and is designed with the tone and aesthetic of 40k and the Imperial Guard in mind) but it comes down to how good its armour is. 

Given that they routinely survive lascannons, missile hits and all the varied anti tank weapons of advanced races like the eldar, i think it's safe to assume it's very durable. So what logically is going to do more damage, our modern day tank rounds or the near magic tech of the eldar? 

They can also run on anything that burns, and as it turns out have some rather advanced systems inside, despite the outwards appearance. Check out the 3rd ed rulebook, on one of the flavour tech pages, towards the back. 

Though ultimately it's immaterial how the Imperium Ground forces stack up to ours as they have space ships with ground bombardment capability. They don't even have to land.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

One thought what about the golden age technology? Such as the banblane is ment to be a tractor not to sure if that's right or not but does that change things?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Must be one hell of a veggie patch if you need to plough it with a Baneblade ?


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Calistrasza said:


> Either way, I'm going to chalk this one down to ultimately a matter of opinion.


Or you could be a good sport and just admit you are wrong on almost every point you made. ;-)

Seriously, an army 40,000 years in advance to our own isn't going to lose.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Compared to the "advanced," technological worlds of the Imperium, modern Earth falls somewhere between a Fuedal World and Civilised World classification. In other words, we lack the population, resources and technology to defeat the Imperium. Sure, we could probably take out a Guard Regiment or two but the next wave would be an orbital assault or a couple companies of Space Marines. I'd prefer the former as it would be over fast. 

For those arguing the Russ vs modern tanks, let's remember a few things. The vehicles of 40K were not designed by military engineers. Therefore, its specs will not mesh. As in any sci-fi setting, the materials(plasteel, ceramite, ferrocrete, armourglass, etc.) must all be assumed equal to or better than current technology. But we have to frame of reference for what our weapons can do to these materials. Lastly, the weapons(even lasguns) are superior to most conventional weapons. Assuming you survive the explosive evaporation of a las-wound, the problem is not over. See page 406 of the 6th Ed rule book, under Combat Lifesaver. Sounds grisly. And let's not forget that Plasma weapons would vaporize us and turn steel to molten slag.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Problem with this type of thread every time is fact vs fiction, alot of the technology in 40k isnt actually that great and is flawed to high heaven, it cant be compared because the stuff on the table and rule books is drempt up in a universe where the tech fits the setting and the game,but not our reality.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Exterminatus.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Or you could be a good sport and just admit you are wrong on almost every point you made. ;-)
> 
> Seriously, an army 40,000 years in advance to our own isn't going to lose.


Well they aren't 40,000 years in advance. They haven't done any technical breakthroughs according to the fluff in like 15,000 years...

While a mordern Earth would have stood no chance in the great crusade due to greater tech and numbers, an Imperial guard regiment is what on average, 60,000 men? The US alone has an active/reserve fighting strength of ~3 million men. Even the Siege of Vraks didn't enjoy that many men on the ground at any given point. While Earth would eventually succumb to superior technology, especially from space (They would just bombard the shit out of our major military installations) it wouldn't be like them sweeping us aside as some sort of feudal army.

What he said isn't terribly unreasonable, our tanks could according to the fluff out range the Leman Russ, and stand a reasonable chance of penetrating them, and same with our Jets. They easily out range thunderbolts and lightnings which as stated require line of sight to hit their targets. Our biggest issue would of course be titans and dealing with the larger tanks...we would have very little chance of knocking out even a baneblade with our current weapons. 

We could at best bleed their manpower, but their super heavy vehicles would quickly overwhelm us and destroy our infantry in a short manner, and god help us should the space marines be involved. Space Wolves are probably the only chapter we could deal with since they eschew helmets.

This of course all subjective to opinions and preconceived notions of how Warhammer 40k technology actually works in the real world, and no one here knows...despite what they may think/say.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok, let's assume they don't vaporize the planet with exterminatus
let's assume they don't pour every guardsman in existance onto us
let's assume they don't drop 200+ terminators on us after using the officio assassinorum on our leaders
let's assume they don't whip out their entire armoured might on us or bombard us from space.

Let's look at weapons for instance:
Lasgun/boltgun - if a space marine model is about 1.3 inches high (estimate) and are supposed to be around 8ft tall, that's 2.4m. So if 1.3" is 2.4 meters, I measure that the standard imperial armament can fire somewhere between 50 - 70 meters (my maths isn't great), but each round that hits is pretty much guaranteed to put a man out of action if not kill outright.
We (in Britain at least) have standard rifles that are expected to be effective at between 400 - 600 meters, so we'd get in a lot of shots before they get there, but if we were up against space marines or terminators, we might as well not bother firing. Barring the officers' tendancy to not wear helmets, which would thus be targeted a lot. 

Vs the guard, considering these range distances, we'd make mincemeat of a lot of them in a straight infantry fight, though their armour would protect them against our weapons, but our armour wouldn't stand a chance against lasfire, but, provided we killed the officers first etc. we could have them on the run. But once they pull out tanks, they could quite easily drown us in armour. You are forgetting quite how much weaponry the imperium can bring to bear. In addition, look at psykers, we have literally no defence against that. There are moments in the fluff where hundreds of thousands of tanks are produced in a matter of weeks and literally millions of guardsmen can die without setting back a single campaign, that is an acceptable loss for one battle at times. The force the imperium has at its desposal, without the highly trained, superhuman, bulletproof, grenade-launcher-machine-gun wielding monsters called space marines, would be enough to literally smother the whole of our defences.

However, looking at the rate at which the Imperium 'improves' its technology, if we waited 10-15 more millennia, we'd have more high-tech guns/tanks etc and they would have guardsman companies fighting over a stick with fire on it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Calistrasza said:


> I think we'd crush the Imperium's military. Their infantry tactics are singularly terrible (they rely WAY too much on either static defense or overwhelming numbers at the cost of individual prowess aside from Stormtroopers).


So did the Russians. The Imperium have got bodies to spare.



> Laser weapons cauterize their own wounds. We don't use bullets because they're super cool, we use them because a hollowpoint round will blow a hole the size of a fist through a dude, and AP rounds will cause a great hole that'll bleed badly. A lasgun won't do that.


There's a calculation going around, where it assumes that megathules is a smeerp for Megajoules; a lasgun is a point and aim weapon, unaffected by gravity, coriolis, or wind (although air pressure and moisture could cause reduction in power slightly, but not so binary as it is today). Anyway, it works out that assuming all those bits of energy get to the target (assuming a bit is lost to the environment through light and imperfect conditious), that all the energy imparted would be the equivalent of a 2 ton truck travelling at 40mph hitting you. Being hit with a bullet is like being punched, really, really, really hard. Now, even though that energy is heat, rather than kinetic, it's going to more than "cauterize", it's going to turn your insides to ash. And for comparison, I don't think that Mike Tyson imparts the same force as a 2tonner travelling at 40mile and hour. It's unclear whether or not the lasrifle even "kicks" for rapid accurate placement of follow up shots.

If someone is doped up, on khat, weed, morphine, or just pure adrenaline, a 5.56 will go through. Leave a hole in them, but with body armour, there's no explosive release which causes them holes. Body armour doesn't "stop", it just keeps your guts intact. Multiple "impacts" of a lasrifle is going to be far easier to get through the body armour as well, weakening the glue which holds the kevlar layers together, and just cracking the ceramics under the immense heat.



> Their air force is big, bulky, and relies on visual range to fight. The last time our jet fighters NEEDED visual range to engage the enemy was Vietnam.


Something that has annoyed me slightly, but I must admit as an Infantryman myself, Pilots whether they be Helicopter or Fast Air all sound a little mary-sue when I speak to them, and possibly the same applies to 40K writers. On the other hand, perhaps with Alien technology, the guard equipment has been determined to account for the need to dogfight or be in visual range. I need to read Double Eagle again to double check it, but there might be more stuff in there. Anyhow, I'm fairly confident that in the case of special forces units, like Storm Troopers, or Elysian D-99, that they'd have the technology specialising in countering their own forces with equipment not necessarily available to normal troops.



> Their armor is hugely ineffective- the Leman Russ' side skirts have an angle of approximately 0 degrees. That means whatever armor they have on it, the Leopard II or Merkeva's will be vastly superior thanks to the angles of the plates. The battle cannon is more of an artillery weapon than a proper tank killer.


We are unable to judge the comparisons. Chobham armour is not made publicly available, and according to source, Ceramite is handwavium composite. As for usage of weapons, IA1 has rules to give LRBT's AT rounds, much like prior to the 5th edition codex update, Vanquishers could have both AT and HE without having to purchase Beastkiller rounds. However, regardless of whatever armour we have effective, I sincerely doubt it can keep up with the kinetic force of Ordnance weapons, Lascannon's, or Melta.



> The Imperial Guard only exists to soak up the damage while the Astartes or elite units move into position- without those elements, say battalion to battalion in the middle of Kentucky, they'd get wasted.


Fallacy. While this is a belief commonly held, it's not a correct one. What happens when elite units are not available? I sincerely doubt that a middle of Kentucky "Somme" would occur, and especially while we do not control the high ground, and long with it's Eyes in the Sky, we wouldn't stand a chance.

Not to mention that the Guard would not be deployed in such a location without being able to guarantee mass landings (As on Vraks), they'd likely hit Capitals and Major Centres. It's all well and good in saying "Yeah, 5th fleet is awesome", but when the 5th fleet is tucked away in the Gulf, it's no good when DC is getting buttfucked by a Basilisk.

Talking of Basilisks, never understood why it's so less powerful than a 155mm. Even the AS90's are better than that. 23mm larger round, and the only stated distance is 15km (although it could be larger due to a bigger charge and better elevation, and the figure might well have been explorative). The AS90 can hit 25km, even up to 80km but the project was terminated according to wiki, due to supply issues.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

40k was written by people with a fairly basic understanding of physics and science ,a nd is about a universe that makes about as much sense as a round peg fitting in a square hole. I know people want to compare the two, but its pointless as one system is made up of bullshit, and the other is restricted to the real world laws of physics. Hell half of the shit that allows us to compare the two has come out of later rewrites and desperate attempts by fans to rationalize the often conflicting fictional accounts of how 40k weapons and armor work (Most of the time leading to assumptions that actually completely go against how things are depicted in the fluff).

Now if we where comparing a similar fictional setting or even stuff within the same universe we could apply our understanding of physics and what not on more or less equal terms, but as it is this threads goal is almost incoherent. Its like asking whats stronger Mike Tyson or the hulk. Well obviously the hulk but that's because he is comprised of fictional bull shit that can't possibly exist. For example in real life the technology in a guardsman's las rifle would be far better used to power death machines, or small buildings as the difference between the stubber and a las rifle is simply a matter of maintenance, and realistically the production difficulties in making such a device and the vast amount of rare material used to make such a advanced laser weapon would make it a incredibly rare weapon. They talk about how easy they are to built and maintain but that is fucking retarded as its a simple fact that the more advanced something is the more complicated it becomes and the more impossible it is to fix when it breaks.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> For example in real life the technology in a guardsman's las rifle would be far better used to power death machines, or small buildings as the difference between the stubber and a las rifle is simply a matter of maintenance, and realistically the production difficulties in making such a device and the vast amount of rare material used to make such a advanced laser weapon would make it a incredibly rare weapon. They talk about how easy they are to built and maintain but that is fucking retarded as its a simple fact that the more advanced something is the more complicated it becomes and the more impossible it is to fix when it breaks.


Obviously the technology we have now to produce such things cannot be compared to fictional technology 38,000 years in the future.

40,000 years ago man was tying bits of flint to a stick to hunt. They could not possibly have conceived the complexity of say a modern hunting rifle, which by today’s standard is pretty basic technology.

But you are right these comparisons can be stupid as we have no idea how these things would work, if at all, in the real world. But none the less there is a still a good nerdy discussion to be had about it.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Calistrasza said:


> I'll go ahead right on back to the point that whatever the merits of the lasgun, it doesn't do "bleeding out". All you can hope for with a lasgun is structural damage, and humans are fairly durable when it comes to just flat out tissue damage. Autoguns might be more useful against conventional militaries today.


Have you ever heard of the term full metal jacket? Let me explain a FMJ bullet does not expand it is designed to put a small hole in a target. Yeah that's what military rounds are. So in terms of differences a las round and a FMJ round are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the las rifle has more endurance. can recharge power packs from any heat source. Accuracy based on the user. 

Vs the AK 47. accuracy is based on how many bullets you fire at the target and is limited on ammo.

Finally The IG have the advantage over us. They would view us as nothing more than PDF whereas they can strike anywhere on the planet. 

It takes days to get enough troops to a location. the IG can get men and equipment to any location within hours.

Even if we could calculate where they were landing they could change their site during flight making us waste resources.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

humakt said:


> Obviously the technology we have now to produce such things cannot be compared to fictional technology 38,000 years in the future.
> 
> 40,000 years ago man was tying bits of flint to a stick to hunt. They could not possibly have conceived the complexity of say a modern hunting rifle, which by today’s standard is pretty basic technology.
> 
> But you are right these comparisons can be stupid as we have no idea how these things would work, if at all, in the real world. But none the less there is a still a good nerdy discussion to be had about it.


Yah don't mind me I'm a bit of a kill joy. I know that entire forums exist to make these kinds of caparisons, and pointing out the absurdity of the idea will do little to dis-wade people form doing so in the future. Hell marvel comics has made a number of series entirely based around the concept so its obviously something fans do as a knee jerk reaction.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Have you ever heard of the term full metal jacket? Let me explain a FMJ bullet does not expand it is designed to put a small hole in a target. Yeah that's what military rounds are. So in terms of differences a las round and a FMJ round are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the las rifle has more endurance. can recharge power packs from any heat source. Accuracy based on the user.
> 
> Vs the AK 47. accuracy is based on how many bullets you fire at the target and is limited on ammo.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but no.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

ok, the thing that you guys seem to forget is that the imperium has billions of worlds. the combined manpower from these worlds would obliterate our military. we would run out of bullets before they run out of bodies.

Anyway reasonably small groups of the imperiums military (compared to the whole collective) win wars against Chaos marines, eldar, tau etc. who are much more advanced than we are in every sense. i think they can handle themselves


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Taggerung said:


> Sorry, but no.


The AK fires a FMJ round. It's been standard since the gun was introduced.
Milsurp learn about it.

I also suggest that you read about the elysian drop troops. Who (gasp) specialize in rapid deployment.

I also suggest that you read the novel The traitors hand. 

You'll find that you are wrong.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> The AK fires a FMJ round. It's been standard since the gun was introduced.
> Milsurp learn about it.
> 
> And yet, I mentioned the M16 and it's variants. Did you even read the post before commenting on it?
> ...


You are correct on one point, FMJ and AK rounds usually go through and through due to the steel core and amount of powder in the round (I should know...I own 2 of them), but the point you seem to neglect either intentionally or due to ignorance, is that when these rounds exit a person, they leave quite a large hole out the back. The Afghans were terrified of the AK74 for this particular reason when the Soviets invaded...Someone hit by this round without a steel plate to protect them, usually isn't combat effective anymore. Last I checked, Flak armor isn't designed to stop bullets.

So yea....

Red text is for Mods only. Norm.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Was a medic in Afghanistan, treated a couple gunshot wounds both 5.56 Nato and 7.62 short, and they can exit anywhere depending on what the range was and what bits of your body it hits along the way, all rounds can tumble because they are heavier at the back than the front due to being pointy, does not matter that they have f.m.j.

As to the o.p, the Imperium would annihilate us, nit picking over small arms weapons is pointless, battleships appear in orbit saying surrender or die, we nuke them and watch the nukes fizzle against void shields then cue white flags on earth


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Taggerung said:


> You are correct on one point, FMJ and AK rounds usually go through and through due to the steel core and amount of powder in the round (I should know...I own 2 of them), but the point you seem to neglect either intentionally or due to ignorance, is that when these rounds exit a person, they leave quite a large hole out the back. The Afghans were terrified of the AK74 for this particular reason when the Soviets invaded...Someone hit by this round without a steel plate to protect them, usually isn't combat effective anymore. Last I checked, Flak armor isn't designed to stop bullets.
> 
> So yea....
> 
> Red text is for Mods only. Norm.


No I am fully aware of what a bullet does to a person. 

I am also fully aware of all the people who survived being shot as well.

Secondly the AK 74 rounds tumble on impact. That's what makes them deadly. They still fire FMJ.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I think bullet effects are maybe straying a little from the topic?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think bullet effects are maybe straying a little from the topic?


Topics like this are always going to boil down to the numbers. 

It's what makes these discussions pointless. We can say a las rifle is better than a AK 47. But why it is better? How much thermal energy is required to burn a hole in a human. or take off their arm?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Topics like this are always going to boil down to the numbers.


Yes but those numbers aren't weapons system v weapon system wars aren't decided by that, we need to compare are resources, resolve, logistical support, combat ability and the like.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Yes but those numbers aren't weapons system v weapon system wars aren't decided by that, we need to compare are resources, resolve, logistical support, combat ability and the like.


but the numbers are what decides things on a large scale.

You could have the best trained men in the world but if they are armed with bolt action .22's going against militia armed with AK 47's isn't going to work out well for them is it? 

The point is that you have to know how effective your weapons are in logical scenarios none of this deadliest warrior crap.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> but the numbers are what decides things on a large scale.
> 
> You could have the best trained men in the world but if they are armed with bolt action .22's going against militia armed with AK 47's isn't going to work out well for them is it?
> 
> The point is that you have to know how effective your weapons are in logical scenarios none of this deadliest warrior crap.


It depends on how those bolt action .22's are employed.

The M4 Sherman was inferior on paper to the Pz V Panther yet we all know how that one panned out.

The Argentineans had better weapons on paper than the British in the Falklands and we know how that went.

The Arabs seriously outnumbered the Israelis in 1967 and 73 as did the Communist forces outnumber the UN in Korea.

The match up of particular weapons is really not the deciding factor.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> It depends on how those bolt action .22's are employed.
> 
> The M4 Sherman was inferior on paper to the Pz V Panther yet we all know how that one panned out.
> 
> ...


Am I really going to have to spell it out? a .22 can kill a person. But it requires having a shot enter the brain or heart or other vital area.

An ak fires allot faster has a bigger bullet and requires less training to use. 


That's what I am trying to say. While the equipment isn't the whole story it makes up an important part.

That's why space marines don't use las rifles. They don't pack the same punch as a bolter.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The M4 Sherman was inferior on paper to the Pz V Panther yet we all know how that one panned out.


The Sherman is an inferior tank to the Panther...1 v 1 they will pretty much never win. You are actually proving Reapers point here...The Shermans could take on Panthers, but only with superior numbers...or when the Panthers ran out of fuel.

I don't know the ratios for M4 vs PZ5, but against Tigers the standard plan was to send 6 Shermans against a Tiger and expect to lose 4...so in this example, it's all about Quantity not quality.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

It all depends really on how much the imperium wants us. Our solar system is rich in resources, our star is stable and 7 billion extra people worshiping the emperer never hurt. If the imperium only threw 1 or 2 Ships at us and a few guard regiments we could probably hold our own and win. Heck thanks to our decentrilised leadership we could probably even avoid the space marine kill the leader tactic they so commonly employ. 

However if there dead serious on conquering we as a world would be damned. We have few space worthy craft as it is meaning ICMBs and nukes are our only space defense and they'll do squat against a full fleet or crusade who would find a counter tactic within minutes. Couple this with many guard regiments backed by either the sisters of battle or space marines fighting a ground war and we'd be defeated over the course of a few years. Our only real defense against the imperium is our decentrilised leadership and thousands of langauges that would make immeadite pasification of our world impossible and force a grind which the imperium would eventully win anyway given there sheer number of resource's. Remember in stalemates those with the better economy eventully win and this is the imperium by a mile


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> That's why space marines don't use las rifles. They don't pack the same punch as a bolter.


and thats why guard dont use autoguns, they dont do as well as lasguns


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

1) decentralized leadership is not a problem. And it is not especially decentralized, just nucleated, which is easier to break links between.

Financial institutions have all sorts of failsafes built in, but look how long it took a bit of water to be fixed during the hurricane last year. Imagine Modern Warfare 3 on a large scale. SM just needs to hit such communications, financial, and intelligence assets. While there are your secret bunkers, but destroying symbols of (religious) pride and identity are all valid targets. Throw in major military installations as well. Assume all satellite reliant communications are either compromised or destroyed.

So the White House, Big Ben and Parliament, eiffel tower, the vatican, mecca, pentagon, thames house, gchq, arbroath naval base, the major fleet deployments, etc. All of those would be destroyed.

Destroy the lines of communications, so despite nebulous leadership, if there is no orders, the individual unit commanders have to make their own choices, having lost their own major strike capacity and under the influence of either demoralization or anger.

The leadership does not need to be destroyed, just removed from its real time links and updates.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Just imagine what would happen if the alpha legion was spearheading the op.

We would annihilate ourselves.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Just imagine what would happen if the alpha legion was spearheading the op.
> 
> We would annihilate ourselves.


Maybe thats whats already happening they are preparing for the arrival of the emperor


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

How is this even a question? How has no one brought up Lascannons? Mass-produceable, high-powered, relatively light, easy to maintain, oh yeah, and can BURN HOLES THROUGH BUNKERS. Compare that to our most powerful stationary manned guns, which is essentially a bolter, and you get the picture. One lasgun shot to an M1 and its over.

No one has brought up either how completely ineffective that sloped armor is against laser weapons. The point of sloping armor to increase thickness was to force a ricochet. Yes, it does increase effective thickness, but _lasers don't ricochet_. It will just burn a hole straight through regardless. The reason sloped armor became irrelevant and tanks are boxes in 40k is because you cant force a ricochet with effective thickness and sloping when you are being hit with an energy weapon. Just crank up the output on the weapon and blow a hole through it anyway. You need sheer thickness and heat dispersion. Our modern metal alloys cannot dampen heat and would just boil away if hit by a lascannon. We could always dip our tanks in chrome though.

When a 5.56 round enters a person at point blank, it makes a huge hole. When it enters at further than 100 meters, it makes a smaller hole with a smaller exit wound. When it enters at 250+ meters, you don't even get an exit wound. On the other hand, when a lasgun hits you at point blank range, it causes a huge hole. When it hits you at further than 100 meters, it makes a huge hole. When it hits you at 250+ meters, it makes a huge hole. See what I'm getting at? Lasers don't decrease in velocity, and don't decrease in effectiveness over range. Then theres maintenance. We will burn through bullets like crazy and will eventually run out of ammo. You can throw a lasgun battery in a fire and recharge it. 

Then there's morale, the winner of every war. Our officers, god bless 'em, they do their best. But there's no morale like the kind Commissars serve up cold.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Taggerung said:


> You are actually proving Reapers point here...


No the point that I was making with all the examples I gave is that a comparison of weapons capabilities is irrelevant without the wider context and that is a lot more things than simple numbers.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

I might be mistaken, but according to the fluff isn't the imperium fighting wars and holding it's own against (amongst others) biologically engineered, acid spewing aliens, other technologically superior species that have spent hundreds of thousands of years perfecting the art of war, the robot undead terminator style armies, really angry green mushrooms and fucking immortal daemons?! And, I might have this wrong, but arent they doing this 40 000 years in the future, with weaponry that was supposedly developed over 30 000+ years of that history from the very weapons that we're hypothetically comparing them to? Saya war fleet dropped out of the warp having travelled back in time and they just attacked (ignoring the fact that they'd be attacking holy terra) we might kill a few, but we wouldn't stand a chance.

Nobody's asked why though. Earth would probbably be deemed of value to the imperium, for potential man power alone. So instead of an attack, far more likely would be a subltle subjugation beginning with earth's discovery by a Rogue Trader, a period of not so subtle "negotiation" and then followed by full blown imperial rule.

Anyway, this thread is now far to serious so here's a picture of a dog sitting on a toilet.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Psykers, anyone? Or Terminators, or Dreadnoughts? How about a dose of Exterminatus?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Something else interesting to note.

The leman russ mounts three guns the same calibre as the bradly's main gun.

Think about that. Not to mention the other cool aspects of the Russ.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Something else interesting to note.
> 
> The leman russ mounts three guns the same calibre as the bradly's main gun.
> 
> Think about that. Not to mention the other cool aspects of the Russ.


The Bradley is comparable to a Chimera, not a Leman Russ though.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

With regard to ranges, someone scaled it up that a bolter would have a 50 to 70 metre range but in the first ED rule book it stated that the weapons would all be able to fire further and even had a rule mechanic for it.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

How many points?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

We have land mines that would clearly blow the tracks of any Imperial vehicle, we have ammunition that would cut through Space Marine armour its call depleted uranium and we have some guns that can fire at a rate of 1,000,000 per minute, slicing through up too 400mm of the hardest armour plate on a sloping angle of 35 degrees.

One Imperial Space Marine Chapter would probably last a few weeks at best, but one Imperial Guard Regiment could be wiped out by the New Calendonian Army within a week.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I highly doubt depleted Uranium slugs would pierce Power Armour, let alone Terminator Armour. Adamantium is supposedly the toughest metal in existence (in 40k), so would most likely just laugh the slugs off. Blowing tracks off Imperial Guard vehicles with landmines is probably the least of their concerns. They have more vehicles in a single Regiment than we do landmines - not to mention the after-devastation landmines would cause if we somehow _did_ manage to kick the Imperials back. 

Just think about it - how many billions of men could the Imperium throw at us if they wanted us so bad. I mean, look at Vraks. We don't have the support of Chaos, or Dark Age technology to help us out. I fail to see how anyone could see us not being boned hard. And that's excluding Astartes. Try your hand against the Charcharadons or another equally bloodthirsty chapter - the demoralisation alone would end the war.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

... Exterminatus? Anyone? We forget the Imperium has space technology, a solar panel on a little satellite isn't going to bring down a Battle Barge. What about Titans, and Turbo-lasers? Plasma?!

As nice as it is to try and defend our current state, the Imperium would breathe a whisper and Earth would be engulfed in a hurricane.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

We're also forgetting how well trained guardsmen are. Cadian children are stripping lasguns from ten years old and Catachans have to be at peak physical fitness to survive that long. A single battalion/regiment (can't remember correct name for main force) can contain around 8,000 infantry, APCs for all of them and a metric fucktonne of artillery and armoured support. Say that they all have decent equipment (flak armour, plenty of ammo & supplies etc.) & the grade of training that the Cadians have, they could probably wipe any small country off the map in a couple of months. Give them Astrates support and they could do it in a couple of days, two weeks tops. 

Drop the full might of the Space Wolves/Black Templars/Blood Angels planetside and most military forces would rout within two days of first contact. By the time the campaign had finished, all twelve survivors would be filling our religious sites with aquillas.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

HOGGLORD said:


> By the time the campaign had finished, all twelve survivors would be filling our religious sites with aquillas.


That is a good point; Could we "rely" on all countries of the world to side with "us" and not side with the forces of the Galactic God ?

I know if a Orbit to Surface capable supersonic aircraft landed in my local park and 9 foot tall cool looking armoured dudes got out of it I'd be keen to have them as mates.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I find it almost hilarious how utterly deluded anyone who thinks we could win is. I'm in the forces and I can tell you now, if the Imperium rocked up, I would be collaborating/surrendering/getting the fuck out of dodge in an instant. 

We would be more screwed than Sasha Grey.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I think that most 40k players (barring the stanchest chaos and xenos players perhaps) would instantly join up. We'd also know what (not) to say to keep all our bodyparts inside us and in one piece. I wouldn't be above grovelling or backstabbing if needs be to get me away from the shooty end of the bolter.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

HOGGLORD said:


> I think that most 40k players (barring the stanchest chaos and xenos players perhaps) would instantly join up. We'd also know what (not) to say to keep all our bodyparts inside us and in one piece. I wouldn't be above grovelling or backstabbing if needs be to get me away from the shooty end of the bolter.


Oh GREAT ! now it's a future army + nerds attack !


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> We have land mines that would clearly blow the tracks of any Imperial vehicle, we have ammunition that would cut through Space Marine armour its call depleted uranium and we have some guns that can fire at a rate of 1,000,000 per minute, slicing through up too 400mm of the hardest armour plate on a sloping angle of 35 degrees.
> 
> One Imperial Space Marine Chapter would probably last a few weeks at best, but one Imperial Guard Regiment could be wiped out by the New Calendonian Army within a week.


You do realize that the lasgun is equivalent to a .50 rifle right? Modern assault rifles aren't even going to tickle a space marine.

Also keep in mind that depleted uranium rounds aren't used in all weapons. Planes and tanks (generalization) are the only ones to use them. 

I can see the ultrasmurfs or any girlyman fanboys losing to earth if we got a copy of the codex astartes. But what about the raven guard, Night lords Alpha legion, World eaters, Wolves of fenris? How do you beat them?


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> You do realize that the lasgun is equivalent to a .50 rifle right? Modern assault rifles aren't even going to tickle a space marine.


Erm what? Where does it give this equivalence?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> You do realize that the lasgun is equivalent to a .50 rifle right? Modern assault rifles aren't even going to tickle a space marine.
> 
> Also keep in mind that depleted uranium rounds aren't used in all weapons. Planes and tanks (generalization) are the only ones to use them.
> 
> I can see the ultrasmurfs or any girlyman fanboys losing to earth if we got a copy of the codex astartes. But what about the raven guard, Night lords Alpha legion, World eaters, Wolves of fenris? How do you beat them?


You do talk absolute gibberish, you know that, right?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Taggerung said:


> Erm what? Where does it give this equivalence?


I think it was on /tg/ at one point.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

So your source is 4chan, and you take this "fact" and then lord over someone with it? Seriously?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Achaylus72 said:


> One Imperial Space Marine Chapter would probably last a few weeks at best, but one Imperial Guard Regiment could be wiped out by the New Calendonian Army within a week.


That's such a retarded statement that it almost made my head hurt.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I can see the ultrasmurfs or any girlyman fanboys losing to earth if we got a copy of the codex astartes.





Reaper45 said:


> I think it was on /tg/ at one point.


This is retarded in a whole other way.


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## Corporal Punishment 69 (Jul 8, 2012)

We'd be reduced to ash within hours of the invasion starting, 40K Imperial tech includes lascannons, plasma weapons of all sizes, titans, melta weapons, viral bombs, orbital launched magma torpedoes, lances, nukes, virus bombs beyond anything we could brew up in a lab on earth, not to mention the Astartes, officio asassinorum, Ad Mech etc etc......


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> This is retarded in a whole other way.


Why? everything the ultramarines do is dictated by a single book. If we got ahold of the book we'd know exactly how to beat any strategy they could throw at us.

And let's be honest according to the official fluff a lasgun is a strong as the plot needs it to be. If it's Ig vs necrons then it's capable of killing a necron.

But if the space marine are involved it's little better than a flashlight.

In order for these vs threads to make sense a precedent has to be set. 

I set one based on available information. If you don't like it waste your time and do the math and set your own.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Why? everything the ultramarines do is dictated by a single book. If we got ahold of the book we'd know exactly how to beat any strategy they could throw at us.


A book that is described as being several hundred pages long, and is about three foot by two foot in dimensions; also quite possibly written in a language we would first have to decipher.

Good luck doing all that in time for it to make a difference.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Then there's the issue of actually getting through Power Armour. Great! You know the potential ways in which they could annihilate and subjugate the planet - now you just have to stop them....

God help us if they send the Charcharadons.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

darkreever said:


> A book that is described as being several hundred pages long, and is about three foot by two foot in dimensions; also quite possibly written in a language we would first have to decipher.
> 
> Good luck doing all that in time for it to make a difference.


Well what is imperial gothic? Since all humans came from earth is it the gothic language we know? is it latin? Like I said there has to be a precedent.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I think you're underestimating the Codex Astartes. It's a series of tomes containing the military wisdom of the Imperium's best generals over 10,000 years. You wouldn't be able to read it fast enough to make a difference. 

Besides which it's guidance, not 'in case of x do y'. Even if it was the latter we'd still be boned as any strategies we could think up would be covered in it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Knowing the tactics of an irresistible force doesn't make it any less irresistible.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> And let's be honest according to the official fluff a lasgun is a strong as the plot needs it to be. If it's Ig vs necrons then it's capable of killing a necron.
> 
> But if the space marine are involved it's little better than a flashlight.


proof this.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

darkreever said:


> A book that is described as being several hundred pages long, and is about three foot by two foot in dimensions; also quite possibly written in a language we would first have to decipher.
> 
> Good luck doing all that in time for it to make a difference.


See I always though of the Codex as being more like The Art of War or the Book of Five Rings. If it is actually like those, translating the book is pointless as it's not battle plans but basic fundamentals of strategy and tactics.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Haskanael said:


> proof this.


Every imperial guard/space marines battle novel in existence.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Every imperial guard/space marines battle novel in existence.


This is rather true, though do keep in mind that lasguns can operate under a variety of power settings and shot modes. The strongest settings allow the user to cause a fair amount of damage to power armour in only a few concentrated shots (though this depletes the pack faster.)

Do keep in mind though that there is an intimidation factor involved in engaging astartes to begin with. Something of their size, strength, and speed would likely be enough to stop some in their tracks, more-so if you had witnessed them in action moments before.


As for translating the codex astartes, while the various languages have basis in dialects from Terra it is still a matter of understanding their differences. Coded ciphers are often based on a langauge we can work with, but that does not make them any easier to translate without some understanding of them.

And then there is the fact that the codex astartes was likely not written in gothic or high gothic, but instead whatever language might have been prevalent on Macraage or Ultramarine battle cant (which is either a different language or a ciphered version of gothic depending on legion/chapter.)


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