# DE Cheese



## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

I was going over with some of my friends the ideas of the CSM cheesy units and amazing combos. Since the release of the new DE codex I have been getting mixed ideas on the new cheese of DE. I was wondering what sort of cheesy new combos you guys think are going to be the stable of the new DE or just what are some of the units that you think are pretty cheesy in the DE codex?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I've read the codex, but nothing at all sticks out to me as cheesey or OP.\

no matter how powerful one of their units are, they probably have the equivalent of wet tissue paper for armour. and their vehicles are obscenely easy to blow up. Even with a flickerfield. 

They are strong when used right, and have some cool tricks and units, but no cheese.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> They are strong when used right, and have some cool tricks and units, but no cheese.


^ This. Apparently I need more characters to post this. So there we go.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

There are some combos that are particularly nasty, but all of them have some kind of weakness that can be exploited. DE are about not letting your opponent exploit your units' weaknesses via mobility and firepower.

That being said, venoms are pretty great. I've seen 1850 DE armies that can pump out 108 poisoned shots with 48" threat range on the first turn just from having 9 venoms. That's nuts.

My personal favorite 'cheesy' DE unit is the incubus deathstar. A unit of incubi with an attached haemonculus who doesn't get out of the transport (but the incubi take the haem's pain token with them when they disembark, granting them FNP on top of their 3+ armor), possibly with an archon attached with a phantasm grenade launcher so the incubi can assault into cover at initiative. 21 strength 4, 4 strength 5, and 6 4+ wounding attacks all at WS and I of 5 or better and all ignoring armor usually hammers whatever they're pointed at before the enemy gets to strike. Once they earn a second pain token and get FNP they get really nasty on the charge. The best part is that with 3+ armor and FNP, they shrug off close to 85% of the wounds they take, making them the toughest, killiest thing in the whole codex. The trouble is keeping their raider out of LoS to keep it alive. The fragility of the raider is why it's so important for this unit to be able to take a beating, since they're likely to be thrown on foot. The good news is that typical DE armies have plenty of raiders for them to jump onto.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Nothing really sticks out to me as Cheezy. My buddy has been using the new Codex since the day it released and as far as i can tell there are no OP units or combos.

Some of their stuff would be, but thankfully all their vehicles (and most of their infantry) are armoured with plywood and tinfoil.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

DrinCalhar said:


> I was going over with some of my friends the ideas of the CSM cheesy units and amazing combos. Since the release of the new DE codex I have been getting mixed ideas on the new cheese of DE. I was wondering what sort of cheesy new combos you guys think are going to be the stable of the new DE or just what are some of the units that you think are pretty cheesy in the DE codex?


It's hard to be op when a well-placed space marine fart sweeps aside your entire floatilla of transports.


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

Mmm. I only have one suggestion. The razorwing: 
so, I can deepstrike this thing. Then, on the turn I deepstrike it, I can drop 4 S6 large blasts at 48" (I could also be firing more weapons from it, but whatever). Not OP given the current meta, but I would call it...unfair. Very few armies are hugely affected by it, but some ork/IG armies just cry.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Played DE twice this is what happens .
1st turn OH no so many raiders.
2nd turn More raiders.
3rd turn oh look a raider *glares* *BAM!*
4th turn opponent how come flicker field never works.
5th turn surrender.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Sure, Incubi are really cool, until they get counter assaulted by any Walker.

More opportunity for me to bash the new DE dex...
The reason that all of those Raiders/Venoms, whatever are getting blown to kingdom come is because they are not blowing up the opponent's vehicles. After realizing that Void Lances only come in a pair on the Voidraven, that Heat Lances only come as a single twin-linked on a Talos or in a pair on Reavers or Scourges (and only bust vehicles inside of 9"), and that two of the four remaining S8 weapons are pistols, it can be concluded that DE can only break Vehicles in shooting with Dark Lances or Blasters. Both of which are expensive, have a low shot volume, and (ridiculously) are no better at penetrating AV11 and 12 Vehicles than a single crack missile each. 

DE spend the entire game shooting and slashing the sides of Rhinos with their useless poisoned weapons. There is nothing OP about the dex.


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## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

What about the very cheap Trueborn with two DLs? Cheap and pretty much just like the Ravagers only since most armies max out there heavy with Ravagers and DLs are key to anti armor I would say this cheap Elite has some promise.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

DrinCalhar said:


> What about the very cheap Trueborn with two DLs? Cheap and pretty much just like the Ravagers only since most armies max out there heavy with Ravagers and DLs are key to anti armor I would say this cheap Elite has some promise.


It's pretty good, but far from 'cheese' (even though I hate the term and what it stands for). If you want to talk about highly efficient anti-tank platforms, try Trueborn with 3-4 blasters in a Venom. Those guys are freaking awesome at knocking out all sorts of targets - blasters for tanks and MCs and the Venom's splinter fire for infantry and MCs.


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## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

We all know that there are cheap units and combos out there to help a player do well in games. When talking with other players it is just easier to label these as cheese. We could call certain units amazing Heavys or Great Range or Amazing Anti-tank or deadly in close combat. But if you want a huge term to in compass them all then wouldn't cheesy just work since it is already established in the gaming community.


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## Strange Dude (Jul 15, 2008)

I quite like beastmaster squads specifically 5 beastmasters (1/venom blade) and 10 flocks of razorwings clocking in at about 225pts. Firstly it has a awesome threat range (beasts so fleet and 12" charge), Secondly when it hits it gets 10 poisoned shots before the charge followed by 8 str 3 attacks 2 wound on 2+ attacks and 60 rending attacks. If your opponent gets to hit back you have a 55 wound unit for him to hit use the beastmasters as ID takers and you can still hand out pain the next phase.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

DrinCalhar said:


> What about the very cheap Trueborn with two DLs? Cheap and pretty much just like the Ravagers only since most armies max out there heavy with Ravagers and DLs are key to anti armor I would say this cheap Elite has some promise.


Cheap, yes, but fragile as heck and immobile (if you take 3.) Any army with a multilaser or heavy bolter free is going to wipe these little guys out with negligble effort. Even in cover an average of 6 wounds splatters these guys over the landscape. Heck, even a couple storm bolters is a significant threat to them. If you take more trueborn for ablative wounds, the unit quickly becomes as expensive as a ravager without the mobility.


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## beakerpsych (Nov 12, 2010)

Asdrubel's ability to steal the initiative is rather fromaggio.


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## misinformed (Mar 29, 2010)

beakerpsych said:


> Asdrubel's ability to steal the initiative is rather fromaggio.


Particularly since they called it Master Tactician and Creed no longer has it! That being said, I was fine with them taking it away from Creed, I just didn't expect them to hand it back out.


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## jc40kba (Sep 27, 2010)

iive recently purchased the new dex and have a rough list wrote down yes they do have wet toilet paper for armour lol but i think with the right tactics they could be very lethal one of the units which stands out to me is the reaver jetbikes wots ure thots on them guys? cluster caltrops look gd on paper but wether there effective on the table i suppose is a different matter. also i like the hellions and baron sathonyx wots ure thots on these units ?


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Hellions are...............alright. 5+ save jump infantry arent exactly fantastic. I think dark eldar will just suffer from what they always have, a solid gunline can take them apart.


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

Its the Beastmasters hinted at by Strange Dude but I reckon that you change the unit around.

Take 5 Beastmasters, 10 Khymerae and 6 Razorwings. That's approx 275 ish. When it comes to wound allocation you're laughing. If you're hit by something small splash it onto the Razors until one base drops to 1 wound. Then you hit the Beastmasters with their FNP. If there's anything big (S6 +) or big blasts then throw them on the 4++ Khymerae. There's 10 of them so plenty of soakage.

You're trying to ensure you get as many Razorwings into combat as possible because if you get them all there 36 Rending attacks at I5 is nothing to laugh at. 

If you're looking for extra threat then go with 2 units of 4 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwings and spread those bad boys out. 

I've yet to discover if FNP extends to the beasts or not thanks to Power Through Pain: 

_Whenever a unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it gains a 'pain token'...Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below.
_*Codex DE pg25*

It would appear that as long as the Beastmasters are alive to collect pain tokens the entire unit i.e. Beasts, get to take advantage of them even though the Beasts don't have the Power From Pain rule. Amirite?



> Hellions are...............alright. 5+ save jump infantry arent exactly fantastic. I think dark eldar will just suffer from what they always have, a solid gunline can take them apart.


3+ saves with Re-rolls for Dangerous Terrain, re-rolls for Hit-and-Run and re-rolls for the distance to get away iirc, on top of his +1 to getting the choice of first turn and his combat abilities make the Baron a very good addition to a Hellion unit. Oh, almost forgot: he makes them scoring too. Sold.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The only times Hellions have underperformed for me is when I play with too little terrain on the table. Dark Eldar suffer whenever that happens anyway, but it's worse with Hellions than other units.

Stormbrow: There was a big debate on this when the codex came out, you can dig it up in the rules section if you like. I think the conclusion was that "If you don't have the special rule "Power from Pain" then you cannot benefit from any of that rules properties due to you not having the rule in the first place". I disagree with that for reasons I won't go into, but I think we'll see a FAQ shortly anyway.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Come on, everybody knows that all the cheese is reserved for Space Marines and the various chapters... :biggrin:


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

> I disagree with that for reasons I won't go into, but I think we'll see a FAQ shortly anyway.


I salute your optimism sir. I reckon it'll be the middle of next year before we see a DE FAQ at the earliest. 

Out of curiousity - you're saying you personally agree with what I posted earlier about how PFP affecting a unit works correct? I'll go and dig through the rules discussion from earlier, cheers for that.


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