# Games Workshop vs. Chapterhouse trial underway



## normtheunsavoury

Shamelessly stolen from Bell of Lost Souls!



> The trial is underway in Chicago in open court.
> 
> Trial Location and Schedule
> 
> U. S. District Court
> 219 S. Dearborn St., Chicago, IL 60604
> Tel: 312-435-5684
> 
> Judge Matthew F. Kennelly - Courtroom 2103
> 
> The Court sets aside the following dates for trial in this case:
> June 3, 2013 (a.m. session - jury selection; p.m. session - trial),
> June 4-7, 2013, June 10-11, 2013, and, if needed for closing arguments, the morning of June 12, 2013.
> 
> The trial day typically will extend from 9:45 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. and from 1:30 or 1:45 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., with morning and afternoon breaks. The Court notes that this is longer than its typical trial day. The Court reserves the right to extend any given trial day to 5:30 if warranted in order to complete the trial within the dates set aside.
> 
> Trial Summary
> 
> Jury selection is completed, and the trial is underway. Both sides have completed Opening Statements, and the first witness is on the stand:
> 
> Alan Merrett - Head of Games Workshop IP
> 
> Mr. Merrett's testimony was hours in length, initially focused on explaining Games Workshop's business to the jury. Some highlights from his testimony:
> 
> -A Realm of Battle board was pulled out to show the jury to help explain what wargaming is.
> 
> -Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".
> 
> -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".
> 
> -It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".
> 
> -Warhammer 40,000 was described to the jury as "Warhammer Fantasy in space", along with describing the Eldar as "Space Elfs", along with other "space" factions such as "Space Orcs".
> 
> -The Dark Eldar were described as "spikey, evil, and every other evil cliche".
> 
> -The Tau were described as "modern sci-fi; more traditional sci-fi" in appearance, as opposed to the archaic aesthetic of the other ranges.
> 
> Testimony is ongoing.


I'm really not sure how in touch Alan Merret is with his customers but buying GW products rates pretty low on my list of favourite parts of the hobby, my wallet screaming in pain and wife threatening to leave me for wasting money takes the shine off things.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> Shamelessly stolen from Bell of Lost Souls!
> 
> I'm really not sure how in touch Alan Merret is with his customers but buying GW products rates pretty low on my list of favourite parts of the hobby, my wallet screaming in pain and wife threatening to leave me for wasting money takes the shine off things.


Oooo...I wonder what today will net us.

In Merrett's defense he's trying to he's trying to simplify everything for a jury who may not know anything about GW, wargaming or the kind of impact this could have on the company.

And from what I've heard buying things seems to be largely what Games Day is about. :laugh:


----------



## Loli

Yeah Zion is right, lets be honest we would be lucky if even one of the jury members even knows what Wargaming is let alone actually plays any. So it needs to be heavily simplified what GW is and what they do.

So while buying may not be the highlight, to a few it is, all I see it as is honest lies. - yes I know it's an oxymoron but I couldn't think of a technical term if there is one -. So it's not a matter of being out of touch it's just simplifying beyond layman's terms  

But this will be interesting. I'd love to be a fly on the wall, would be really interesting.


----------



## Doelago

> -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".


He has a funny way of looking at things.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Zion said:


> In Merrett's defense he's trying to he's trying to simplify everything for a jury who may not know anything about GW, wargaming or the kind of impact this could have on the company.


This is absolutely what Merrett was doing. Anybody who takes some form of offence to his simplifications is being stupid and naive, this is a court case not an introductory game.


----------



## Zion

Doelago said:


> He has a funny way of looking at things.


Considering last year's criticism of Games Day was that the lines to buy things were too long, I can't say he's _wrong_ though.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> This is absolutely what Merrett was doing. Anybody who takes some form of offence to his simplifications is being stupid and naive, this is a court case not an introductory game.


I don't take offence at the statement, I just think he could have put his point across in a better way. Buying things is rarely people's favourite part of anything, unless they are addicted to shopping of course. I have to do food shopping from time to time and the queues in the supermarket are often very long indeed, it doesn't mean people are enjoying themselves, I'm certainly not.


----------



## Marneus Calgar

This shit still going on? Christ how long has it been?


----------



## Zion

Marneus Calgar said:


> This shit still going on? Christ how long has it been?


That was all summary judgement stuff. This is now in front of a Jury and should have a verdict by next week.

I'm keen to see how this plays out as if GW loses this it could hurt their IP if they aren't poised to do a rapid re-branding to secure their IP in a better fashion.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Wow, I'll definitely will keep a tab on this thread.


----------



## Chaosftw

normtheunsavoury said:


> -Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being *infinitely customizable".*
> I can see Chapter House using this line right here to their advantage. There is no way GW has the proper patents / legal rights to cover every type of model etc. in an "Infinitely customizable" game.
> 
> 
> -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".
> 
> Uhhhh..... Lying in a court room is a criminal offense


This case will be interesting. I strongly feel there is a lot of "Grey Area" in this case. Unless the judge and jury can really pick through everything with a "fine tooth comb" I don't see this ending soon.


----------



## Zion

Chaosftw said:


> This case will be interesting. I strongly feel there is a lot of "Grey Area" in this case. Unless the judge and jury can really pick through everything with a "fine tooth comb" I don't see this ending soon.


They're actually under a hard deadline with a jury result due by the end of next week.


----------



## Lipsidius1

Sorry to sound out of touch, which I usually am, but what is this trial about?


----------



## bitsandkits

Lipsidius1 said:


> Sorry to sound out of touch, which I usually am, but what is this trial about?


Well a little company called chapterhouse studios decided to produce low quality after market parts that are compatible with gw kits, then proceeded to use gws own terminology to sell them , then they got bolder and produced conversion kits for some codex entries tjat GW had yet to release, so GW sued them,GW pretty much expected them to cave in as tjey were tiny and had no money for a legal defence, but some bright spark at a huge law firm gave them probono defence so this shit has taken two years and a shit ton of money to get to trial.


----------



## Chaosftw

Zion said:


> They're actually under a hard deadline with a jury result due by the end of next week.


Really? uh oh... I see this ending poorly for GW then. I think the jury will not see the entire issue as the models chapterhouse are producing are not exactly the same they are parts to add to the ones GW has produced. I could be wrong but I think Chapterhouse may squeak by in this case.


----------



## Zion

Lipsidius1 said:


> Sorry to sound out of touch, which I usually am, but what is this trial about?


Loooooong story as short as I can:

Chapterhouse Studios is a 3rd party company that makes after market stuff specifically for use with GW products. They also have made things specifically to replace GW models or to act as replacements for models GW didn't have out (namely the Spore Pod and Tervigon for Tyranids).

GW took issue with this, as they are legally required to when concerning anything IP related, and sent a C&D. Chapterhouse told GW to basically go fuck themselves. They have spent the last year or so in a legal battle and are now past the summary judgement phase and at trial by jury.

This trial will affect what GW can defend as IP. If they lose it badly it could cripple the company forcing a re-branding to more protectable terms, images and design elements. It could result in a major shift in 40k as a whole, or not at all as protecting this IP is how GW protects its bottom line and can continue to bring us the games we play.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

normtheunsavoury said:


> -Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".


Considering the "summary" nature of the original post, I wouldn't be surprised if the "buying things" comment was snipped from a larger comment of activities at Games Day. More fun to just clip out that one "sound-bite" though.


----------



## Zion

Zion said:


> Loooooong story as short as I can:
> 
> Chapterhouse Studios is a 3rd party company that makes after market stuff specifically for use with GW products. They also have made things specifically to replace GW models or to act as replacements for models GW didn't have out (namely the Spore Pod and Tervigon for Tyranids).
> 
> GW took issue with this, as they are legally required to when concerning anything IP related, and sent a C&D. Chapterhouse told GW to basically go fuck themselves. They have spent the last year or so in a legal battle and are now past the summary judgement phase and at trial by jury.
> 
> This trial will affect what GW can defend as IP. If they lose it badly it could cripple the company forcing a re-branding to more protectable terms, images and design elements. It could result in a major shift in 40k as a whole, or not at all as protecting this IP is how GW protects its bottom line and can continue to bring us the games we play.


EDIT:


Chaosftw said:


> Really? uh oh... I see this ending poorly for GW then. I think the jury will not see the entire issue as the models chapterhouse are producing are not exactly the same they are parts to add to the ones GW has produced. I could be wrong but I think Chapterhouse may squeak by in this case.


There is still an appeal process in which case it'd go to a higher court and so on, which I expect both side to use, but really if GW loses anything it'll be the ability to protect certain things without changes. So if they lose I see them changing them fast and locking down the new Trademarks as needed to keep their IP solid.


----------



## bitsandkits

Should also be noted GW may also win and its chaptethouse that gets shafted into the dirt and have to pay GW a shit ton of damages and be forced to close, and to be honest this needed to happen, even if GW loose some of its IP it will mean they know how and what to do in the future to protect stuff correctly, personally i think chapterhouse fighting the case has done them a ton of damage in the community and forced GW to re think how they and what they release.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> Should also be noted GW may also win and its chaptethouse that gets shafted into the dirt and have to pay GW a shit ton of damages and be forced to close, and to be honest this needed to happen, even if GW loose some of its IP it will mean they know how and what to do in the future to protect stuff correctly, personally i think chapterhouse fighting the case has done them a ton of damage in the community and forced GW to re think how they and what they release.


+1

It will be very interesting to see what happens "out the other side" which ever way the case goes.

Does Chapterhouse enjoy popular support as the "Dragon Slayers" ?


----------



## Barnster

Isn't this a case of different international law conflicting?

In the uk you can own an idea eg seer on a bike, but in the us I believe that you need to prove that you can and have intention to produce it.

Personally I think GW need a kick up the jacksie, I've been waiting for jetbike seers for 12 years and still no sign their interested in making any. 

Any lawyer worth their salt can tear testimony that includes "infinite possibility" to bits


----------



## Zion

bitsandkits said:


> Should also be noted GW may also win and its chaptethouse that gets shafted into the dirt and have to pay GW a shit ton of damages and be forced to close, and to be honest this needed to happen, even if GW loose some of its IP it will mean they know how and what to do in the future to protect stuff correctly, personally i think chapterhouse fighting the case has done them a ton of damage in the community and forced GW to re think how they and what they release.


Hence why I said that I expect both sides to appeal regardless of the judgement next week.

I'd personally like to see Chapterhouse bite it though. They were intentionally stepping on GW's toes while relying on GW as a means to earn an income. It just reeked of stupid business practices.



Magpie_Oz said:


> +1
> 
> It will be very interesting to see what happens "out the other side" which ever way the case goes.
> 
> Does Chapterhouse enjoy popular support as the "Dragon Slayers" ?


I know Dakka has a major hard-on for them and has been arguing that GW would lose this since _Day 1_. So potentially.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Barnster said:


> Isn't this a case of different international law conflicting?
> 
> In the uk you can own an idea eg seer on a bike, but in the us I believe that you need to prove that you can and have intention to produce it.
> 
> Personally I think GW need a kick up the jacksie, I've been waiting for jetbike seers for 12 years and still no sign their interested in making any.
> 
> Any lawyer worth their salt can tear testimony that includes "infinite possibility" to bits


Copyrights are pretty much the same where ever you go in terms of their basic principles. What does differ is the precedents and the common law applications.

No one can copyright an idea as such, it has to be expressed in some way.


----------



## Zion

Barnster said:


> Isn't this a case of different international law conflicting?
> 
> In the uk you can own an idea eg seer on a bike, but in the us I believe that you need to prove that you can and have intention to produce it.
> 
> Personally I think GW need a kick up the jacksie, I've been waiting for jetbike seers for 12 years and still no sign their interested in making any.
> 
> Any lawyer worth their salt can tear testimony that includes "infinite possibility" to bits


1. Nope. GW holds Trademarks in both the US and England. Plus they operate around treaties that basically make the US IP law the baseline for international IP. It doesn't always work, but it's usually the baseline for this kind of stuff.

2. While I agree GW does need to produce stuff they put into books (and for the most part they are now, outside of some things, like Jetbike Seers, which still don't have a model yet) I think that losing this case will hurt GW more than the wakeup call it initially provided. Image what would happen if shareholders dumped the company because it couldn't protect its IP. Buh-bye GW.

3. Yes, anyone could potentially tear it apart, but considering the number of peices available, you have a pretty damn big number of combinations even if they don't all make sense. It's the kind of hyperbole that isn't without a strong basis at least.


----------



## seermaster

I have no real idea but,would expressing an idea be like rules for it or design sketches prototypes etc.


----------



## Chaosftw

Ummm the USA does not always follow European trademark laws... A good one and more common is France's trademark on the name "champaign". No where else in Europe (at least that's what I read) calls their drink that is practically identical "champaign" they call it something else. The USA however basically said 'f**k that' and called it champaign as well.

Now this may not be the best example but the point I am trying to make is that what is trademark in Europe may not be the same on this side of the pond. The fact that this case is being held in the USA may mess with some of the copyright GW has on their product. Yes GW has reserved rights in the USA but they may have over looked things and their could be more loop holes then they anticipated.

Honestly I am just rooting for the underdog here at the end of the day GW will win. Ether they win out-right and collect money and shut down chapter house OR they lose, have to pay a bunch of money and then just tighten their rights to all the models and everything else so this can't continue.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

seermaster said:


> I have no real idea but,would expressing an idea be like rules for it or design sketches prototypes etc.


Yep it certainly would



Chaosftw said:


> Ummm the USA does not always follow European trademark laws... A good one and more common is France's trademark on the name "champaign". No where else in Europe (at least that's what I read) calls their drink that is practically identical "champaign" they call it something else. The USA however basically said 'f**k that' and called it champaign as well.


That has nothing to do with Trademarks, it's the Treaty of Madrid which is essentially an agreement between vitners. The "fuck that" came from a desire for Californian vitners to continue to product sparkling wine under the name Champagne. More recently how ever there has been an agreement between some vintners in the US and some EU areas to restrict the name usage. 



Chaosftw said:


> Now this may not be the best example but the point I am trying to make is that what is trademark in Europe may not be the same on this side of the pond.


yep that is true however that comes down more to the procedural methods by which trademarks are registered. There may be different levels of proof needed at the registration stage between each system




Chaosftw said:


> The fact that this case is being held in the USA may mess with some of the copyright GW has on their product. Yes GW has reserved rights in the USA but they may have over looked things and their could be more loop holes then they anticipated.


Now we are into copyright which is a very different situation. Copyright does not need to be registered, you merely have to be able to prove that it was your IP in the first instance, that is what the nub of the trial will be.


----------



## Hellados

There is a place in France called champagne an only 'fizzy' wine from the region of Champagne in France can be called Champagne, much like cheddar cheese and a whole ton of other things

The IP law in Europe is there to protect others inventions and designs for example the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, intention does come in to it and on this fact chapterhouse have seriously over stretched what they can and can't do

If the American courts vote in favour of Chapterhouse it'll be a travesty as it would seriously hurt GWs IP, see movies, books, tons of crap that ruins the fluff to no end! (God help us if Hollywood/Disney get hold of the inquisition!

This would also fly in the face of the American courts holding money from gambling websites not based in the US and 'file sharing sites' based I the EU that the US has fined, deported and imprisoned despite the owners never being/have visited or operating directly in the US

Wow I'm talking a lot tonight!!!


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Hellados said:


> much like cheddar cheese and a whole ton of other things


People keep getting this wrong, cheddar can come from anywhere, the west country have been trying for ages to get a Protected Geographical Indication but can't as internationally cheddar is seen as a style of cheese rather than a particular product from a particular area. 

All of which has sweet FA to do with GW taking chapterhouse to court.


----------



## Hellados

Indeed you are right, I just looked it all up (iPhone, tapatalk brought me back, i apologise)


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I thought that 'Toy Soldiers' were not protectable in the UK. Therefore were not noted as toys. In his testimony he called them toys, under oath. This could have bad repercussions back home.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Reckon you're reading WAY too much into that.


----------



## maddermax

I doubt it'll go all for one side or the other. GW have some legitimate complaints, but they've over-reached on quite a few issues, and pulled some legally dodgy stuff in regards to some of it's complaints (claiming it had copyright on shoulderpads when it's application had been rejected by the copyright office, claiming it had the rights to certain art when it actually didn't and trying to compel certain artists to sign over rights after the fact). Basically, GW could have had a quick win had it kept a reasonably narrow focus and kept everything above board, but they decided not to (to be fair, this is probably more related to their chosen consul's, Mr. Moskin, actions than GWs direct influence, but it's definitely not helping them).

As it is now, while GW might "win" and get some damages, it'll probably lose several of the trademarks/copyrights it was trying to claim. It won't kill them by a long long long shot, but it'll probably mean that it's a somewhat Pyrrhic victory for them. 


Here's all the actual legal stuff filed, for anyone interested: Games Workshop Limited v. Chapterhouse Studios LLC (ilnd/250791) - The RECAP Archive


----------



## Fallen

Zion said:


> he's trying to simplify everything for a jury who may not know anything about GW, wargaming or the kind of impact this could have on the company.





Loli said:


> ...Yeah Zion is right, lets be honest we would be lucky if even one of the jury members even knows what Wargaming is let alone actually plays any.


There will not be a gamer who plays GW product, or probably know even a minute depth of GW, on the jury due to the fact that it would a conflict of interests.

Not sure if "selecting" a jury is the same everywhere else, but in the states the prosecution and defense each get a round of questions on the jury members and wean the initial jury count of ~20 to 12 with 2-4 alternates (in case everyone but 1 person believes a certain way - That one person is then removed and replaced with an alternate). The Jury is a collaboration of people that the defense & prosecution both agree on. 



Zion said:


> ...They're actually under a hard deadline with a jury result due by the end of next week.


I will bet that It will become a hung jury, there will likely be too much information and too little time to with 1 week to deliberate on it.

although if there is a winner, my bet is on GW.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Fallen said:


> There will not be a gamer who plays GW product, or probably know even a minute depth of GW, on the jury due to the fact that it would a conflict of interests.


NOt really. It would only be that if the jury member had some form of vested interest in GW. Shareholder, relative of a worker there, friend of a worker etc.



Fallen said:


> Not sure if "selecting" a jury is the same everywhere else, but in the states the prosecution and defense each get a round of questions on the jury members and wean the initial jury count of ~20 to 12 with 2-4 alternates (in case everyone but 1 person believes a certain way - That one person is then removed and replaced with an alternate). The Jury is a collaboration of people that the defense & prosecution both agree on.


In Oz and the UK too I believe there is no interview process at all. Juries are simply picked at random from the community. The jury members themselves are required to show any conflicts of interest.


----------



## maddermax

Yeah, Australia and the UK are just ordinary public members, and the lawyers cannot know anything but what they look like, where they live and their profession. Meanwhile, in the US they get to ask questions of the jurors to get more information. Here's the list of questions asked for jury selection in this case:



> 7. Proposed Voir Dire Questions
> 1. Have you, or a relative or close friend, ever played any miniature war-games?
> 
> 2. Have you, or a relative or close friend, ever collected and/or painted figurines?
> 
> 3. Have you, or a relative or close friend, ever attended any gaming conventions?
> 
> 4. Have you ever heard of Games Workshop, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, or Warhammer 40K?
> 
> 5. Have you ever read a book published under the “Black Library” label?
> 
> 6. Have you ever heard of Chapterhouse Studios?
> 
> 7. Do you have any knowledge about or experience with copyrights or trademarks,including applying for a copyright registration or a trademark registration?
> 
> 8. Have you ever been involved in the creation or selection of a trademark?
> 
> 9. Have you ever been involved in the creation of an artistic work (book, painting, sculptor, etc) that was sold to others?
> 
> 10. Have you, or a relative or close friend, ever made a claim of copyright infringement, trademark infringement, or patent infringement?
> 
> 11. Have you ever considered filing for a copyright, trademark registration, or patent registration but decided not to?
> 
> 12. Have you, or a relative or close friend, ever been accused of infringing another's copyright, trademark, or patent?
> 
> 13. Have you, a relative or close friend, ever worked in sales or marketing?
> 
> 14. Have you, a relative or close friend, ever been a member of a union?
> 
> 15. Have you, a relative or close friend worked for commission, either currently or as part of a previous job?
> 
> Chapterhouse additionally proposes the following jury questions:
> 16. Do you use generic medicine?
> 
> 17. Do you own a smart phone/blackberry/iphone?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

So really each side are doing their level best to stack the jury in their favour.


----------



## Fallen

Magpie_Oz said:


> NOt really. It would only be that if the jury member had some form of vested interest in GW. Shareholder, relative of a worker there, friend of a worker etc.


I shouldn't have said "conflict of interest", it's just that the attorney will not allow anyone who has "insider" info - like most people on Heresy for example - could have already formed an opinion. They are removing those people, so 99% of war gamers will not be selected.



Magpie_Oz said:


> So really each side are doing their level best to stack the jury in their favour.


well, the judge and attorneys basically pick the least "knowledgeable" of the group.

----

for an extreme example in the O.J. Simpson case if anyone worked with OJ (even in the most remote cases, during his film/NFL career for examples, fans, etc) would be removed for being "blind" in their opinions (for example Michael Jackson fans during his "pedophile/rape" case).


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> So really each side are doing their level best to stack the jury in their favour.


As is common for such things, yes.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Fallen said:


> I shouldn't have said "conflict of interest", it's just that the attorney will not allow anyone who has "insider" info - like most people on Heresy for example - could have already formed an opinion. They are removing those people, so 99% of war gamers will not be selected.
> 
> 
> 
> well, the judge and attorneys basically pick the least "knowledgeable" of the group.
> 
> ----
> 
> for an extreme example in the O.J. Simpson case if anyone worked with OJ (even in the most remote cases, during his film/NFL career for examples, fans, etc) would be removed for being "blind" in their opinions (for example Michael Jackson fans during his "pedophile/rape" case).


The only problem with all that is that you're not getting a truly random sampling of a cross section of the community.


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> The only problem with all that is that you're not getting a truly random sampling of a cross section of the community.


That's the thing, they don't want a random cross sampling of everyone, just the subsection who knows the least about the case. That group can be swayed one way or the other more easilly than a group of people who know everything going in and have their own opinions.

Basically they try to pick based on a selection of the people who are the least biased. Everything else is them trying to shuffle people in to support their "side". Because both sides do it though you tend to get a fairly balanced jury _most of the time_.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Zion said:


> That's the thing, they don't want a random cross sampling of everyone, just the subsection who knows the least about the case. That group can be swayed one way or the other more easilly than a group of people who know everything going in and have their own opinions.
> 
> Basically they try to pick based on a selection of the people who are the least biased. Everything else is them trying to shuffle people in to support their "side". Because both sides do it though you tend to get a fairly balanced jury _most of the time_.


Sure I get that, I'm just saying the philosophy is different in Australia (and UK?). The American system is seeking to find out what those 12 people believe, ours is wanting to know what society believes, given court rooms aren't big enough for everybody, we have to take a random sample.

Let's say you had put one of the 9/11 (EDIT HIJACKERS on trial. Would it be a representative jury if no one from New York, or even America was allowed on it, as well as no Muslims ?


----------



## maddermax

Magpie_Oz said:


> The only problem with all that is that you're not getting a truly random sampling of a cross section of the community.


That is the American jury system, yes. Jury selection is a large part of a trial, and excluding those who might be unfavorable to your positions from the outset is seen as right and proper, whereas here we would see it (as you said) as "stacking the jury". We still do this on a much lesser scale, of course, with barristers here able to veto a certain number of jury memebers at their selection, but with limited information (name, their appearance, place they live and occupation). It allows some stacking of the jury, if you're looking for older/younger, male/female, richer/poorer jurors, or trying to exclude people of a particular profession (such as a doctor or nurse in a medical case perhaps). 

Different systems, I think ours gives a bit better cross section of a society, and is simpler (there's a whole profession of jury consultants which don't exist here, one of them is a regular commenter on the Dakka thread of this case), but I could not say that one system is necessarily "fairer" than the other.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

:goodpost:


----------



## Fallen

i do not believe that it says anywhere in the US legal system that the system is truly random, just that you will be judged by your peers.

edit: it doesn't help when one steps away from an "active" thread for a while LOL.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Fallen said:


> i do not believe that it says anywhere in the US legal system that the system is truly random, just that you will be judged by your peers.


Yeh our is much the same. Thing is we vary in how we go about determining that. If a wargamer is on trail maybe it is not unreasonable that it is wargamers who are his peers ?


----------



## Fallen

is it because he is a wargamer that he is on trial? or just a coincidence?

-----

off topic;

is it just me or is Heresy randomly "moving" (seems to be shifting left/right only) at odd intervals in the threads. I do not notice it when i am on the main page...

driving me nuts when I'm reading stuffs.


----------



## Zion

Fallen said:


> is it because he is a wargamer that he is on trial? or just a coincidence?
> 
> -----
> 
> off topic;
> 
> is it just me or is Heresy randomly "moving" (seems to be shifting left/right only) at odd intervals in the threads. I do not notice it when i am on the main page...
> 
> driving me nuts when I'm reading stuffs.


It's the Wayland Ad. The forum is trying to set one width, then adjust for the ad then readjust.


----------



## maddermax

http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.369.2.pdf

A transcript of the pre-trial stuff. I found it suprisingly readable, for a legal document that is, and with some very interesting quotes.




MS. HARTZELL: Those were directed more to the opinion point because these are individuals who say things like, "this is just clearly copyright".

THE COURT: This has got to be a joke, right? I mean, what the hell, "this is just clearly copyright" infringement.

MS. HARTZELL: Correct.

THE COURT: That's one of the things you want to allow in; yes or no?

MR. MOSKIN: Yes.

THE COURT: It's excluded under Rule 403. It's a conclusion about law, not something the jury has to decide.




Zion said:


> It's the Wayland Ad. The forum is trying to set one width, then adjust for the ad then readjust.


Ah, that's what that is. I thought it was a touchpad error resizing the screen for me.


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.369.2.pdf
> 
> A transcript of the pre-trial stuff. I found it suprisingly readable, for a legal document that is, and with some very interesting quotes.


My favourite thus far:



THE COURT: Because that's what people do on the Internet, they just sort of foam at the mouth?

MR. MOSKIN: Well, I don't know that they're all foaming at the mouth.



I wonder if Moskin had to spend time on DakkaDakka reviewing things for this case...

EDIT: Reading deeper it looks like he had to read over a lot of forum posts and the nature of the posts their discussing does sound like Dakka's thread on the matter, so I wouldn't be surprised if he did.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Interesting notion that a spontaneous comment is being given a degree of weight.

also a bit odd for a judge to say "what the hell"


----------



## Rems

I find it interesting that Moskin's focusing on the fact that Chapterhouse's pieces were 'coloured' (pg 20 onwards). He seems to be focusing on the fact that they're infringing on GW as they've been using the same colour schemes on their parts. He says that they wouldn't sell anything if they weren't painted. 

That seems an odd line to take to me. I'd have thought you would argue that the pieces themselves were infringing rather than simply the colour scheme. 

Haven't finished yet but it's interesting reading. Anyone else get the impression that GW and their lawyers are lacking in preparation? The Court seems to be excluding a lot of what they've provided.


----------



## maddermax

Rems said:


> I find it interesting that Moskin's focusing on the fact that Chapterhouse's pieces were 'coloured' (pg 20 onwards). He seems to be focusing on the fact that they're infringing on GW as they've been using the same colour schemes on their parts. He says that they wouldn't sell anything if they weren't painted.
> 
> That seems an odd line to take to me. I'd have thought you would argue that the pieces themselves were infringing rather than simply the colour scheme.
> 
> Haven't finished yet but it's interesting reading. Anyone else get the impression that GW and their lawyers are lacking in preparation? The Court seems to be excluding a lot of what they've provided.


Yes, that line was pretty shocking I can tell you. I mean I can understand why they want the colored images included (and I agree with them), but saying that the copyrights are useless if they weren't painted in appropriate colors is a pretty piss poor way to make your point. Lucky for them, it wasn't at trial, so it won't make a difference in the end, but still....

As I said earlier, the GW team have been quite shocking in their prosecution of this case, as anyone who has followed the case so far can tell you. A certain unpreparedness is par for the course it seems.


----------



## Zion

Rems said:


> I find it interesting that Moskin's focusing on the fact that Chapterhouse's pieces were 'coloured' (pg 20 onwards). He seems to be focusing on the fact that they're infringing on GW as they've been using the same colour schemes on their parts. He says that they wouldn't sell anything if they weren't painted.
> 
> That seems an odd line to take to me. I'd have thought you would argue that the pieces themselves were infringing rather than simply the colour scheme.
> 
> Haven't finished yet but it's interesting reading. Anyone else get the impression that GW and their lawyers are lacking in preparation? The Court seems to be excluding a lot of what they've provided.


From what I gathered the argument is that by painting the models to looks similar, if not identical, to GW minis Chapterhouse was basically trying to cash in on GW's property. Now I could be misunderstanding what Moskin is trying to say there, but that is what I gathered.


----------



## maddermax

After going back to reading some more, I'm down to page 84, and I've just found out that GW took the 8 pointed chaos star from author Micheal Moorcock... but that they're still trying to claim trademark infringement chapterhouse using it, even though they had explicit permission from Moorcock, who created the symbol.




THE COURT: July 8, 2008.
"Dear Mr. Villacci, thanks for writing my agent
regarding the chaos symbol. I will not ask you for a fee but
an acknowledgement, an acknowledgement reading. This symbol
is a recognized trademark of Michael Moorcock in multiverse
ink."
And then there's an email later in the day. It's
clearly responding to something, but I'm not sure what.
Mr. Moorcock says: "Thanks. Yes, that company has
appropriated other people's work as well as mine, and at
present our lawyers are preparing to deal with them."
That company, I assume, is Games Workshop.
"I've never charged for the various symbols and names
I've invented. I have no problems dealing with people who
have the good manners to ask first.



Fascinating.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Thanks guys, as I think I have said before I have tried to pick through the waffle on this and whilst it's not as effective as titanic it does still put me to sleep.


----------



## bitsandkits

maddermax said:


> After going back to reading some more, I'm down to page 84, and I've just found out that GW took the 8 pointed chaos star from author Micheal Moorcock... but that they're still trying to claim trademark infringement chapterhouse using it, even though they had explicit permission from Moorcock, who created the symbol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE COURT: July 8, 2008.
> "Dear Mr. Villacci, thanks for writing my agent
> regarding the chaos symbol. I will not ask you for a fee but
> an acknowledgement, an acknowledgement reading. This symbol
> is a recognized trademark of Michael Moorcock in multiverse
> ink."
> And then there's an email later in the day. It's
> clearly responding to something, but I'm not sure what.
> Mr. Moorcock says: "Thanks. Yes, that company has
> appropriated other people's work as well as mine, and at
> present our lawyers are preparing to deal with them."
> That company, I assume, is Games Workshop.
> "I've never charged for the various symbols and names
> I've invented. I have no problems dealing with people who
> have the good manners to ask first.
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating.


this is one of those things that is prime example of what this case is all about, moorcock claims to have invented the chaos star, but as a quick google search will tell you, the eight pointed start has figured as a religious symbol of gods for a long time before he decided to use it, Besides giving a chapterhouse permission to use your chaos star doesnt automatically give them permission to slap in on a space marine replacement part or a tank door that happens to look exactly like a gw tank door,if it did they wouldnt be in a court room now infront of a jury.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> this is one of those things that is prime example of what this case is all about, moorcock claims to have invented the chaos star, but as a quick google search will tell you, the eight pointed start has figured as a religious symbol of gods for a long time before he decided to use it, Besides giving a chapterhouse permission to use your chaos star doesnt automatically give them permission to slap in on a space marine replacement part or a tank door that happens to look exactly like a gw tank door,if it did they wouldnt be in a court room now infront of a jury.


I agree, it seems to be very much a recurring theme that a Trademark has to be somehow unique. You can register pretty much anything as a trademark, the only restriction is that no one else is already using the symbol as a mark on products that are in the same market as you.

The ownership of a particular artistic rendition of a symbol is between the artist and the person using it without permission, if that is the case with GW and Moorcock.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

bitsandkits said:


> this is one of those things that is prime example of what this case is all about, moorcock claims to have invented the chaos star, but as a quick google search will tell you, the eight pointed start has figured as a religious symbol of gods for a long time before he decided to use it, Besides giving a chapterhouse permission to use your chaos star doesnt automatically give them permission to slap in on a space marine replacement part or a tank door that happens to look exactly like a gw tank door,if it did they wouldnt be in a court room now infront of a jury.


Very good point B&K.


----------



## falcoso

I'm still laughing at the foaming at the mouth line, like we all sit here at our computers going practically rabid when we see new stuff. I do think though that Chapterhouse were a little bit out of line making entire models to fill in missing GW stuff, conversion parts I can understand, as either way it's not going to take away from GW as you still need the basic models in the first place.

But I think the repercussions of this is already being felt in on GW releases, given that the last codex to come out without the every entry in the codex to have a model was necrons, now GW a releasing thick and fast and either bringing out rules with new models or releasing the models with the codexes


----------



## falcoso

I'm still laughing at the foaming at the mouth line, like we all sit here at our computers going practically rabid when we see new stuff. I do think though that Chapterhouse were a little bit out of line making entire models to fill in missing GW stuff, conversion parts I can understand, as either way it's not going to take away from GW as you still need the basic models in the first place.

But I think the repercussions of this is already being felt in on GW releases, given that the last codex to come out without the every entry in the codex to have a model was necrons, now GW a releasing thick and fast and either bringing out rules with new models or releasing the models with the codexes


----------



## bitsandkits

falcoso said:


> I'm still laughing at the foaming at the mouth line, like we all sit here at our computers going practically rabid when we see new stuff.


Well maybe not all of us are rabid and foaming when we see new stuff on the computer.... some of us are rabid and foaming when seeing new stuff on our tablets and phones.

though on reflection some of the chapterhouse stuff has also given me a strong bodily reaction when i have viewed them too....you know when you are sick a little bit in your mouth..that kinda thing


----------



## Barnster

Chapterhouse did something right though, they fixed the storm raven!

Its the only kit I like that they released and the only kit I ever bought from them (They screwed me over postage and tax)


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> After going back to reading some more, I'm down to page 84, and I've just found out that GW took the 8 pointed chaos star from author Micheal Moorcock... but that they're still trying to claim trademark infringement chapterhouse using it, even though they had explicit permission from Moorcock, who created the symbol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE COURT: July 8, 2008.
> "Dear Mr. Villacci, thanks for writing my agent
> regarding the chaos symbol. I will not ask you for a fee but
> an acknowledgement, an acknowledgement reading. This symbol
> is a recognized trademark of Michael Moorcock in multiverse
> ink."
> And then there's an email later in the day. It's
> clearly responding to something, but I'm not sure what.
> Mr. Moorcock says: "Thanks. Yes, that company has
> appropriated other people's work as well as mine, and at
> present our lawyers are preparing to deal with them."
> That company, I assume, is Games Workshop.
> "I've never charged for the various symbols and names
> I've invented. I have no problems dealing with people who
> have the good manners to ask first.
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating.


While he gave them permission, nothing legal was actually set up about this, and as GW points out in the document, the guy used it on the cover of one book and doesn't seem to actually have a real trademark on the design anyways.

Ah, IP law. It's enough to make your head explode.



Magpie_Oz said:


> I agree, it seems to be very much a recurring theme that a Trademark has to be somehow unique. You can register pretty much anything as a trademark, the only restriction is that no one else is already using the symbol as a mark on products that are in the same market as you.
> 
> The ownership of a particular artistic rendition of a symbol is between the artist and the person using it without permission, if that is the case with GW and Moorcock.


Yup. Best Moorcock could _possibly_ have is if GW used it on the cover of their books, because that was the field they both share and I highly doubt Moorcock though to trademark it in every field (or even could) before others could use it.



falcoso said:


> I'm still laughing at the foaming at the mouth line, like we all sit here at our computers going practically rabid when we see new stuff. I do think though that Chapterhouse were a little bit out of line making entire models to fill in missing GW stuff, conversion parts I can understand, as either way it's not going to take away from GW as you still need the basic models in the first place.
> 
> But I think the repercussions of this is already being felt in on GW releases, given that the last codex to come out without the every entry in the codex to have a model was necrons, now GW a releasing thick and fast and either bringing out rules with new models or releasing the models with the codexes


Foaming at the mouth can go a lot of ways as they were talking about the internet and how it's spontaneous reactions without a filter. Out of context it's pretty hilarious though.

This case as been going on since the back half of 2010 when GW sent CHS the first C&D. It really kicked off in 2011 when it became a "We'll see you in court" thing though and you can tell with the releases post that statement. So this has done two things for GW: first, it's changed their design policy so that they stop leaving holes in the codex for a decade or more of without a real model (though some of the Eldar holes are still there, they still try to fill as many as they can along the way too) and secondly it's teaching them everything they'll need to know to deal with cases like this in the future. Even if they only come out of this winning on a couple of things they'll still know how to better approach this in the future, and they've even gotten some things better protected (Space Marine shoulder pads, which due to the size being larger than the bearer's head are protected because that one little detail is enough to warrant a copyright on them (in art and in model form because the art is actually a bit more generic looking, but is directly tied to the model) because it's something that makes them different than the ones that already exist) which gives them better ground to stand on.


----------



## jams

Just chucking it out there, perhaps the reason we've got gaps in the the eldar codex, ie new jetbikes and variations thereof, is down to this case.

Think about it, if GW replace a model line which falls under the remit of the infringement, I.e chapterhouse's awful jetseer conversion based on the current jetbike design, with a new shiny model, it kind of weakens their argument a bit as they would no longer be selling the infringed design


----------



## Magpie_Oz

jams said:


> Just chucking it out there, perhaps the reason we've got gaps in the the eldar codex, ie new jetbikes and variations thereof, is down to this case.
> 
> Think about it, if GW replace a model line which falls under the remit of the infringement, I.e chapterhouse's awful jetseer conversion based on the current jetbike design, with a new shiny model, it kind of weakens their argument a bit as they would no longer be selling the infringed design


Superseding the old design doesn't remove the copyright tho'.

What I reckon it does do, is give GW a bit of "insurance". Even if the Chapterhouse mini was found "not guilty" what do they have? A jetbike that looks nothing like the cool new ones.


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> Superseding the old design doesn't remove the copyright tho'.
> 
> What I reckon it does do, is give GW a bit of "insurance". Even if the Chapterhouse mini was found "not guilty" what do they have? A jetbike that looks nothing like the cool new ones.


That and/or they're waiting for Saim Hann's supplement book to have a double incentive to get people to buy pretty plastic people.


----------



## jams

Magpie_Oz said:


> Superseding the old design doesn't remove the copyright tho'.
> 
> What I reckon it does do, is give GW a bit of "insurance". Even if the Chapterhouse mini was found "not guilty" what do they have? A jetbike that looks nothing like the cool new ones.


true, i just think that the court case might have something to do with the lack of new jetbikes at the mo.

that and what zion said about keeping them back for a possible saim-hann supplement release


----------



## Kreuger

bitsandkits said:


> this is one of those things that is prime example of what this case is all about, Moorcock claims to have invented the chaos star, but as a quick Google search will tell you, the eight pointed start has figured as a religious symbol of gods for a long time before he decided to use it, Besides giving a Chapterhouse permission to use your chaos star doesn't automatically give them permission to slap in on a space marine replacement part or a tank door that happens to look exactly like a GW tank door,if it did they wouldn't be in a court room now in front of a jury.





Zion said:


> While he gave them permission, nothing legal was actually set up about this, and as GW points out in the document, the guy used it on the cover of one book and doesn't seem to actually have a real trademark on the design anyways.
> ...
> Yup. Best Moorcock could _possibly_ have is if GW used it on the cover of wtheir books, because that was the field they both share and I highly doubt Moorcock though to trademark it in every field (or even could) before others could use it.


I'm curious, have any of you ('you' being anyone, but including Bits and Zion) read Michael Moorcock's work _Elric of Melnibone_ or others? 

I ask because the use from Moorcock's writing is very clear. Games Workshop didn't simply 'borrow' the Chaos star they borrowed the concept of gods of chaos living in another parallel dimension plotting to destroy reality and accepting souls in payment for temporal power, also the mutating power of chaos, god's chaos champions, and a lot more. The chaos star representing all of that is pretty darn specific.

I'm neither a lawyer nor corporate strategist, but I suspect GW is going to do poorly here, because what GW is suing Chapterhouse for is analogous to a car manufacturer suing an aftermarket company for making an arm rest-pad, or a set of 'rims', and marketing them as "Rims for [Car manufacturer's make/model!]." If anything I can see Chapterhouse getting penalized for their marketing practices more than the miniatures.

There's a certain irony to this suit. GW makes good games and stellar models, but along the way they have borrowed, stolen, or adapted many, many sources of fiction and sci-fi. 


I think that the best outcome from this trial for the hobby would be a resounding defeat to GW. If the courts here cleared the field for other companies to market aftermarket pieces without fear of reprisal then we might see some really high quality work being done. Especially if that pushed GW to compete more or even create licensing agreement with smaller producers, but where GW perhaps retained the right of refusal to maintain quality.

Anyway, I think competition will be good.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kreuger said:


> Games Workshop didn't simply 'borrow' the Chaos star they borrowed the concept of gods of chaos living in another parallel dimension plotting to destroy reality and accepting souls in payment for temporal power, also the mutating power of chaos, god's chaos champions, and a lot more.


I think the concepts you outline here are pretty much present in nearly any religion or work that talks about the "Gods". Ancient Greek Myths read pretty much like the Chaos Gods.



Kreuger said:


> I'm neither a lawyer nor corporate strategist, but I suspect GW is going to do poorly here, because what GW is suing Chapterhouse for is analogous to a car manufacturer suing an aftermarket company for making an arm rest-pad, or a set of 'rims', and marketing them as "Rims for [Car manufacturer's make/model!]." If anything I can see Chapterhouse getting penalized for their marketing practices more than the miniatures.


Have a look here, the same issues are present in the aftermarket part business.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34559.pdf

_Recent legal controversies have renewed this debate domestically. In In re Certain Automotive Parts,
113 the International Trade Commission held that certain third-party replacement automobile parts, 
designed for use in the 2004 Ford F-150 pickup truck, infringed design patents owned by the Ford Motor Co. 
As a result, the ITC banned the importation of these component parts into the United States.
_



Kreuger said:


> There's a certain irony to this suit. GW makes good games and stellar models, but along the way they have borrowed, stolen, or adapted many, many sources of fiction and sci-fi.


Inspiration comes from a variety of sources for anyone in Sci-Fi. I htink you'd be hard pressed to find any work that doesn't have a parallel in some form elsewhere.

Tyranids could be seen to come from "Alien", "Alien" could be seen to come from "Them!" which are just ants on speed.



Kreuger said:


> If the courts here cleared the field for other companies to market aftermarket pieces without fear of reprisal then we might see some really high quality work being done.


We could also see vast quantities of utter crap and lose sight of what are the true GW products. This would erode our ability to buy with confidence.



Kreuger said:


> Especially if that pushed GW to compete more or even create licensing agreement with smaller producers, but where GW perhaps retained the right of refusal to maintain quality.


They already have that, it is detailed on their website. It when people don't ask that they get shitty, for some strange reason :grin:


----------



## Zion

Kreuger said:


> I'm curious, have any of you ('you' being anyone, but including Bits and Zion) read Michael Moorcock's work _Elric of Melnibone_ or others?


No, but are you familiar with the concepts of extra dimensional beings who exist on a different plane from us, see us as nothing more than annoying insects at best and playthings to amuse themselves with at worst and have bestoyed madness, disease, and even mutations on?

Maybe if I talked about a write called Lovecraft and those who came after him and were all before Moorcock's time?

He's not original, he just spun it differently. Don't play it like Moorecock was the only one to conceive of such beings that would do such things to mankind. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.



Kreuger said:


> I ask because the use from Moorcock's writing is very clear. Games Workshop didn't simply 'borrow' the Chaos star they borrowed the concept of gods of chaos living in another parallel dimension plotting to destroy reality and accepting souls in payment for temporal power, also the mutating power of chaos, god's chaos champions, and a lot more. The chaos star representing all of that is pretty darn specific.


They borrowed the concept just like people following in Lovecraft's footsteps followed him. And the concept of an 8 pointed star isn't even that original. Oh no, GW may or may not have taken similiar elements too someone and applied them to a _different medium entirely_. Just like you can dig back and see other Space Marines before GW's I bet if I really tried I could find most if not all of Moorcock's stuff buried in religious and mythological sources.

For example: gods who empoy people? Greek mythology. Gods who mutate or otherwise transform people? Greek mythology AND Christian Mythology (Pillar of Salt!). Gods who elect Champions? Greek and Christian Mythology (Battle of Troy and David, Solomon, Samson, Noah, Job, ect). This shit isn't new, it's just being told by somone else in a different setting.



Kreuger said:


> I'm neither a lawyer nor corporate strategist, but I suspect GW is going to do poorly here, because what GW is suing Chapterhouse for is analogous to a car manufacturer suing an aftermarket company for making an arm rest-pad, or a set of 'rims', and marketing them as "Rims for [Car manufacturer's make/model!]." If anything I can see Chapterhouse getting penalized for their marketing practices more than the miniatures.


I disagree. Among the things GW gets to bring into the court:


The person who owns the other 49% of CHS and does the sculpting work and lives in Sweden has on record admitted fully to having pirated GW materials on his computer. Yes, he did try to amend that (with the claim that he didn't understand the questions) and GW has to mention it, but the guy speaks better English than most Americans and GW gets that as well.
GW also gets to mention that this person intentionally did not provide any sort of portfolio of what he took his inspiration from, and that he used Google Image Search. You know what I see when I google "Space Marine" (no quotes) for references? 22 (of the first 23) images are GW Space Marines.
GW gets to bring forum posts into this were lay people say that the stuff looks like GW's stuff. This is not hearsay, these are the off-the-cuff remarks of people.
And GW gets the coloured CHS images so they can show them to the jury in comparison to their own and point out how much alike they are.

And that's just the stuff the judge let in outside of anything else (like Alan Merrit being a non-expert deposition and thus providing another lay person's opinion as well about how much alike they are). I really doubt GW are _half_ as screwed as people want to claim.



Kreuger said:


> There's a certain irony to this suit. GW makes good games and stellar models, but along the way they have borrowed, stolen, or adapted many, many sources of fiction and sci-fi.


If GW had legitimately stolen anything they would have been dragged to court over it. Paramount Pictures had to go to court over Alien because it's story was so similar to a writer's novel that he had grounds to sue (they settled out of court).

You need to honestly need to really _read_ how IP law really works. It doesn't matter if I take a rubber duck, make it blue with googly eyes. If it's different from a standard rubber duck, even a _little_ bit I can copyright it, and maybe even trademark it depending on the circumstances. 

People borrow ideas, concepts and adapt things all the time. GW isn't the first and condemning them for doing what every single human being does normally is frankly a lot of bullshit. I've already pointed out Moorcock's stuff echos things that came before him, just like GW's echoes stuff that came before them.

Hell if I made a table top minature game _right now_ chances are that even if I wasn't intending too I'd be borrowing concepts and ideas from some where else. It's just how your brain works. It takes things you've internalized and turns them into other things. It's just what we do. So stop bashing GW for doing what you, I or even Moorcock do naturally.



Kreuger said:


> I think that the best outcome from this trial for the hobby would be a resounding defeat to GW. If the courts here cleared the field for other companies to market aftermarket pieces without fear of reprisal then we might see some really high quality work being done. Especially if that pushed GW to compete more or even create licensing agreement with smaller producers, but where GW perhaps retained the right of refusal to maintain quality.
> 
> Anyway, I think competition will be good.


Again I disagree. I read an article today about a hobby/gaming store that recently partnered with GW because frankly it brings in the most money, offered them a better set-up regarding getting their merchandise for pre-orders and generally was better for the store. My FLGS now and the one I went to in upstate New York both relied heavily on GW's products to bring in the money. 

And when you take sales from GW because of third parties getting to use their hard work for free (remember, GW pays their employees to invent the stuff you enjoy about these games, third parties just take that and use it for free) and undermine them then what's going to happen to GW?

Best case scenario? They rebrand. They change Space Marines to Adeptus Astartes, tweak some names, some design elements and spend thousands of dollars reboxing EVERYTHING.

Worst case? They crumble. They can't rebrand fast enough and are eaten away by people who take what they rightfully paid for, and worked to make and lose it to third party companies who just want a slice of the pie but don't want to work to make their own games.

I'm sorry, but an outcome that kills a game I enjoy by killing a company that I sometimes disagree with is not a solution that I feel should be lauded in any regard.


----------



## maddermax

Magpie: On the 3rd party parts bit, you're using a case about patents, which is a very different beast from trademarks or copyright.

On the Micheal Moorecock bit, don't forget that Moorecock apparently licensed GW to make minis from his works, which included licensing them to use the chaos star for them, before GW started using it for their own works. I would think it would be hard to argue that GW has an (unregistered) trademark on using the chaos star on miniatures when they were licensed to make them for Moorecock, and arguing that it's because they're on a shoulderpad (note, the possible copyright on the shoulderpad is a seperate issue) as opposed to elsewhere on a mini would be difficult. 

Just think, if Nike licensed a car company to make a car with a nike tick on the door, would the car company be able to claim that the tick on a car door is a trademark of their company? Possibly, but we'll have to wait and hear the judgement.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

maddermax said:


> Magpie: On the 3rd party parts bit, you're using a case about patents, which is a very different beast from trademarks or copyright.


Yes I get that mate, I was just pointing out that similar issues in regards of IP, Patent,Copyright, trademark exist in the aftermarket part business, amongst others, in rebuttal to the example which seemed to suggest that such issues do not.


In Moorcock's own words

_It never occured to me to trademark the Chaos sign any more than Tolkien trademarked Orcs.

I could have trademarked it at some point, I suppose, but I wouldn't want to. Games Workshop's lifting from me and Tolkien might have introduced new readers, but it's still irritating! However, there's a certain satisfaction of having added a few bits and pieces to the common culture to the extent that people actually don't know the origins of stuff and ideas they now use casually. None of that bothers me.

To me it was simply a logical sign to represent Chaos, just as the single arrow represented Law. I was looking for a way of dstinguishing the two sides. As I say, the version I prefer (which best represents Chaos) is the asymmetric version drawn by Walter Simonson for MM's Multiverse. I would never have considered trademarking something like that, anyway, since it's such an obvious and simple design._


----------



## bitsandkits

Yes i kruger i have read moorcocks work, it was back in the late eighties mind and i was also an avid stormbringer roleplayer which we bought from our local games workshop funnily enough. I think moorcock has quite alot to be thankful for of GW, many of the fantasy novelists have, had it not been for GW carrying the fabtasy flag and pushing roleplaying games and ofcourse the fighting fantasy book range tjat started all this i doubt we would even know who moorcock was in the uk, we think of GW as this evil empire but they really do deserve some respect for how they grew that empire from nothing.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

I'm going to be upfront on this, before his mention in this thread, I'd never heard of Moorcock before. Which, I have a Bachelor of Arts in Literature... I still find it interesting that I hadn't heard of him. Anyway, being someone who came to this party a couple of years ago I initially had the impression that things like the gods of chaos were borrowed heavily from Mesopotamian myth/literature with some Lovecraft sprinkled in for flavour. They are, after all, very old and archaic as themes for opposing forces go.
The star on the other hand, I thought you had to copyright/trademark those things to even be able to take someone to a legal hearing for rights concerning it... or prove beyond reasonable doubt that its your own original creation.
IMHO, GW hasn't done anything different in borrowing themes than others before them. Whereas as Chapterhouse is simply profiting from standing on GW's shoulders.


----------



## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> I'm going to be upfront on this, before his mention in this thread, I'd never heard of Moorcock before. Which, I have a Bachelor of Arts in Literature... I still find it interesting that I hadn't heard of him. Anyway, being someone who came to this party a couple of years ago I initially had the impression that things like the gods of chaos were borrowed heavily from Mesopotamian myth/literature with some Lovecraft sprinkled in for flavour. They are, after all, very old and archaic as themes for opposing forces go.
> The star on the other hand, I thought you had to copyright/trademark those things to even be able to take someone to a legal hearing for rights concerning it... or prove beyond reasonable doubt that its your own original creation.
> IMHO, GW hasn't done anything different in borrowing themes than others before them. Whereas as Chapterhouse is simply profiting from standing on GW's shoulders.


I admit I haven't heard of Moorcock, nor remember seeing the name anywhere before this trial either.

As for CHS standing on GW's shoulders (and pissing on them from there) I have that feeling about all 3rd parties who are just using GW's IP to make money. 

GW has worked very hard over the years to make the games we play. And they've paid people to help do that (Jes Goodwin, Phil Kelly...ect, they all get paid to help make these universes for use to enjoy) while 3rd parties are just taking the finished product, for free (thus not having to invest anything monetarily in creating anything), using the established design to knock out bits (some new, most not so new frankly) to make money.

CHS of course is the worst offender on my list because not only where they doing this, they were aggressive against GW about it and acted like complete asshats to boot.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Can "asshat" be used in a trial case?

I agree with you. I feel that 3rd parties in most any industry have a tendency to cross lines, but, I've not seen anything like this before. Most ridiculous thing I've seen before this was Ford's C&D to aftermarket and restoration dealers for the use of the name Mustang and other Ford vehicles in the company's name and advertising literature. I don't think that ended well.


----------



## Lipsidius1

Zion said:


> Loooooong story as short as I can:
> 
> Chapterhouse Studios is a 3rd party company that makes after market stuff specifically for use with GW products. They also have made things specifically to replace GW models or to act as replacements for models GW didn't have out (namely the Spore Pod and Tervigon for Tyranids).
> 
> GW took issue with this, as they are legally required to when concerning anything IP related, and sent a C&D. Chapterhouse told GW to basically go fuck themselves. They have spent the last year or so in a legal battle and are now past the summary judgement phase and at trial by jury.
> 
> This trial will affect what GW can defend as IP. If they lose it badly it could cripple the company forcing a re-branding to more protectable terms, images and design elements. It could result in a major shift in 40k as a whole, or not at all as protecting this IP is how GW protects its bottom line and can continue to bring us the games we play.


Ok, maybe it's me, but isn't GW the pot calling the kettle black here? I mean is it me or do some Tyranid models look strikingly similar to the monsters in the Alien movies, as do some vehicles, most noteably the IG Walkers compared to the Star Wars walking thing-ama-bobs and Necrons with Terminators from the Arnold Schwarznegger movies. Huh!


----------



## Septok

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Can "asshat" be used in a trial case?


That would be the funniest thing to be arrested and prosecuted for. I now think we need to forget every world problem except that asshattery isn't a prosecutable crime.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Lipsidius1 said:


> Ok, maybe it's me, but isn't GW the pot calling the kettle black here? I mean is it me or do some Tyranid models look strikingly similar to the monsters in the Alien movies, as do some vehicles, most noteably the IG Walkers compared to the Star Wars walking thing-ama-bobs and Necrons with Terminators from the Arnold Schwarznegger movies. Huh!



There's a huge difference between being inspired by something and ripping something off. We'll take the 'nids as an example, genestealers are clearly inspired by the monster in the Alien films, inspired by, not a copy, they look different enough that anyone could tell that they are not the same thing and instead of being called Xenomorphs they are called Genestealers. 

Now to Necrons, GW could have called them terminators and given them numbers rather than names so, a necron immortal could have been a T-101 and the leader of the Necrons could have been Skynet, a hugely powerful super computer that is hell bent on the destruction of mankind. That would have been GW ripping someone off and they would have been in even more trouble than Chapterhouse are in now had they done that. 

No one has an issue with inspiration, its how things evolve into new things but taking the piss and using other people's hard work and trying to pass it off as your own is a different matter.


----------



## Zion

Lipsidius1 said:


> Ok, maybe it's me, but isn't GW the pot calling the kettle black here? I mean is it me or do some Tyranid models look strikingly similar to the monsters in the Alien movies, as do some vehicles, most noteably the IG Walkers compared to the Star Wars walking thing-ama-bobs and Necrons with Terminators from the Arnold Schwarznegger movies. Huh!


Tyranids started a bit more Alien-eske and GW hates that these days but with 4 arms and no tails on the Genestealers (the ones that get the blame the most) I think it's safe to say that while inspired by Alien, GW has managed to move on and take the idea in a different direction. Plus Xenomorphs have a weird reproductive style that requires a host creature, while Tyranids act more like Space Locusts.

IG Walkers and the AT-AT from Star Wars? Well first you need to consider the scale there. The AT-AT would be closer sized to a knight Titan in 40k and has a crew of several people, a centrally mounted gun and can be killed by teddy bears. The Guard Sentinals are smaller, only have a crew of one, have a gun mounted on the side and are more explicitly a walking gun platform designed to move that weapon quickly than a massive, bipededal tank. Plus just about everything, not just Teddy Bears, can kill the Sentinel.

As for the Necrons, they're robot skeletons. There is only so much you can do to make that different honestly and GW did. They hunched them over, they added symbols and shoulder pads and energy based guns...and gods who were once stars (which should tell you about the universe of 40k where even the STARS want to kill everything). GW took the idea of a skeleton robot and ran with it a different way. That's the difference between what they did and what CHS did. 

CHS took GW's property and without changing it, made models to replace things that GW sold, or to beat GW to the release of their own products (Tervigon). They didn't change anything, they didn't use it as a homage, they made it as close as possible to GW's work to copy them and make money from it. No original thought in how to change things to be different, just a straight carbon copy with the occasional smudge to blur the lines a touch.

EDIT:



Septok said:


> That would be the funniest thing to be arrested and prosecuted for. I now think we need to forget every world problem except that asshattery isn't a prosecutable crime.


I feel Asshattery should be an additional charge for almost every crime honestly. There wouldn't be a punishement, but it'd go on your record. "Guilty of 36 counts of Asshattery? We better bring this Asshat in!"


----------



## Kreuger

Before I begin any sort of rebuttal, I want to say I appreciate the time, effort and thought that went into your post. I don't always appreciate what I perceive as your tone, and we clearly disagree on many topics but I'm open to a good debate. I also appreciate your use of quotes. Far too many members just quote a whole post at once which often does little but stretch out the forum. So I appreciate your thoughtful point by point argument.



Zion said:


> No, but are you familiar with the concepts of extra dimensional beings who exist on a different plane from us, see us as nothing more than annoying insects at best and playthings to amuse themselves with at worst and have bestowed madness, disease, and even mutations on?
> 
> Maybe if I talked about a write called Lovecraft and those who came after him and were all before Moorcock's time?
> 
> He's not original, he just spun it differently. Don't play it like Moorcock was the only one to conceive of such beings that would do such things to mankind. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.
> 
> They borrowed the concept just like people following in Lovecraft's footsteps followed him. And the concept of an 8 pointed star isn't even that original. Oh no, GW may or may not have taken similar elements too someone and applied them to a _different medium entirely_. Just like you can dig back and see other Space Marines before GW's I bet if I really tried I could find most if not all of Moorcock's stuff buried in religious and mythological sources.
> 
> For example: gods who employ people? Greek mythology. Gods who mutate or otherwise transform people? Greek mythology AND Christian Mythology (Pillar of Salt!). Gods who elect Champions? Greek and Christian Mythology (Battle of Troy and David, Solomon, Samson, Noah, Job, etc). This shit isn't new, it's just being told by some one else in a different setting.


My point here isn't that Michael Moorcock is the most original author ever. He is a pretty creative guy. He fantasy mythology bears little resemblance to those that came before. I think you have rightly hit on the closest though. There are a few parts of his mythology that seem close to Lovecraft. To my mind mostly the Chaos Lord Pyaray. 

When I discussed Moorcock in general it was to point out that "Chaos" as we know it GW's mythology is heavily derived from Michael Moorcock's work. And yes, there are elements of other mythologies in Moorcock's work. My point specifically was that Moorcock combined all of the things that we as Warhammer players associate with Chaos: the icon, chaos gods, chaos champions, mutating powers of chaos, the capricious nature of those deities etc. All of that was there in Moorcock's work and it was _called_ "Chaos." 

If slaanesh was touted as hurling thunder bolts, living on a mountain, or turning himself into a golden shower or a bull to get it on with chicks I'd be pointing my finger squarely at Greek mythology too.

(And by the way, I'm not saying Moorcock's books 'the best thing ever' they aren't, but they were very original for the time. Moorcock is generally more creative than the average fantasy author but he was also publishing novels with what reads like very little editing, and there's a lot of dross in there too that should have been edited out. Additionally, the dark elves in fantasy battle are heavily influenced by the Melnibonéans. )



Zion said:


> I disagree. Among the things GW gets to bring into the court:
> 
> 
> The person who owns the other 49% of CHS and does the sculpting work and lives in Sweden has on record admitted fully to having pirated GW materials on his computer. Yes, he did try to amend that (with the claim that he didn't understand the questions) and GW has to mention it, but the guy speaks better English than most Americans and GW gets that as well.
> GW also gets to mention that this person intentionally did not provide any sort of portfolio of what he took his inspiration from, and that he used Google Image Search. You know what I see when I Google "Space Marine" (no quotes) for references? 22 (of the first 23) images are GW Space Marines.
> GW gets to bring forum posts into this were lay people say that the stuff looks like GW's stuff. This is not hearsay, these are the off-the-cuff remarks of people.
> And GW gets the coloured CHS images so they can show them to the jury in comparison to their own and point out how much alike they are.


Honestly, I haven't read the proceedings that closely, but I'm glad other folks here have. So apparently, when it comes to the intent Chapterhouse aren't looking blameless.



Zion said:


> I really doubt GW are _half_ as screwed as people want to claim.


I know significantly more about copyright than the average person walking down the street, but I know little to nothing about Trademarks and other aspects of intellectual property law. I know more about how copyright and usage of works affects higher education in the USA.

In this case I'm not sure that Chapterhouse infringed GW's copyright. Copyright is much more specifically about who can make duplicates of a piece of creative work such as an image or a story. I'm not sure how what CHS did is influenced by that, though it is very plausible that CHS did violate trademarks. But again I know little about them.

I also don't think GW is screwed or will be out of business no matter how this trial shakes out.




Zion said:


> If GW had legitimately stolen anything they would have been dragged to court over it. Paramount Pictures had to go to court over Alien because it's story was so similar to a writer's novel that he had grounds to sue (they settled out of court).


I perhaps used the term _stolen _hyperbolically. Though I am unsure of the actual nature of GW's arrange with Moorcock, from what Magpie posted it looks like it more concerns usage of the star than anything else, but I'm not certain. And Chaos is the content I think is most 'stolen'. Genestealers were pretty close before they introduced Tyranids. I remember hearing they were sued but it seems you may know more about that suit than I do. 



Zion said:


> You need to honestly need to really _read_ how IP law really works. It doesn't matter if I take a rubber duck, make it blue with googly eyes. If it's different from a standard rubber duck, even a _little_ bit I can copyright it, and maybe even trademark it depending on the circumstances.


If this is truly the case then Chapterhouse are in an even better position than I thought they were. Their works are almost certainly different from a standard-space-marine-rubber-duck.



Zion said:


> People borrow ideas, concepts and adapt things all the time. GW isn't the first and condemning them for doing what every single human being does normally is frankly a lot of bullshit. I've already pointed out Moorcock's stuff echos things that came before him, just like GW's echoes stuff that came before them.


Additionally, when I say 'stolen or borrowed' I don't necessarily mean "criminally infringed", more that they leaned heavily on other's concepts. This could be from mythyology, it could be from literature or art that is out of copyright, or it could be current works. I tend to think GW capitalize on other people's ideas without often giving proper due. But I'm not necessarily claiming there is criminal liability.

The stuff you pointed out, wasn't also called "Chaos" and represented by an 8 pointed star. And for the sake of argument, if they had been called the lords of randomness or lords of uncertainty I think the case would be about as strong. But the warping deities of Moorcock's multiverse are lord of chaos.



Zion said:


> Hell, if I made a table top miniature game _right now_ chances are that even if I wasn't intending too I'd be borrowing concepts and ideas from some where else. It's just how your brain works. It takes things you've internalized and turns them into other things. It's just what we do. So stop bashing GW for doing what you, I or even Moorcock do naturally.


I'm not _bashing_ anyone. I suspect you are seeing malice where it doesn't exist. I haven't made a game, and your assertion makes complicit in imaginary IP theft. I feel pretty cognoscente about what GW have included in their games, and I would, were I to make a game of my own avoid everything of GW's for the very reasons we're discussing.

Besides I very much like what GW produces. And all these years later (21 to be precise) I continue to buy it when I can afford to. I really like the melange of borrowed concepts that Games Workshop has adapted into its universe. I often like it _because _they borrowed the best sci-fi fantasy of the last few hundred years and adapted it. I definitely don't always agree with their business practices nor all of their game development ideas. And like every other player I wish it were more affordable, but overall I like what they do. I'm also not contending that they have necessarily infringed the intellectual property of everyone I think they 'borrowed' from. Perhaps its a personal failing of mine, but I would like GW to own up to where they've borrowed in the past. And to Bit's point I don't think they're the evil empire, just a company catering to finicky demographic, and often stumbling between their duty to shareholders and customers.



Zion said:


> And when you take sales from GW because of third parties getting to use their hard work for free (remember, GW pays their employees to invent the stuff you enjoy about these games, third parties just take that and use it for free) and undermine them then what's going to happen to GW?
> 
> Best case scenario? They rebrand. They change Space Marines to Adeptus Astartes, tweak some names, some design elements and spend thousands of dollars reboxing EVERYTHING.
> 
> Worst case? They crumble. They can't rebrand fast enough and are eaten away by people who take what they rightfully paid for, and worked to make and lose it to third party companies who just want a slice of the pie but don't want to work to make their own games.
> 
> I'm sorry, but an outcome that kills a game I enjoy by killing a company that I sometimes disagree with is not a solution that I feel should be lauded in any regard.


We're both guessing at the outcomes either way. As I stated, I think ideally GW should be reaching out and partnering with other companies. Squelching those producers controls the brand but I'm niot sure its actually making them more money or increasing the value of the brand with customers. 

There are plenty of companies producing 3rd party/aftermarket pieces for GW kits. But is GW ever going to make Mexican revolutionary ork heads? Almost certainly not. But I'm glad somebody made those and other niche pieces. Are they eating into GW's "Mexican-revolutionary-Ork-head" demographic? Not even a little bit. But if they sell well, it's a target audience GW can now also market to. And those heads need GW Ork bodies to be used with. And that drives the sale of ork kits for parts, and selling more parts for customization shouldn't be detrimental to GW, it should be beneficial.

I would really like to see a market where companies could produce items "for use with Games workshop's __________" without fear of litigation. I honestly think it is in GW's interest to make those producers team members rather than enemies. Like cultivating little outsourced Forge Worlds. All of those niche markets will often still require a GW product to use or attach to. A set of 'pachyderm armored personal carrier doors' would still require a rhino kit to mount them on, but they could be built entirely on the long tail of GW's marketing and market share. Besides if these other companies act as licensing partners then all of their advertising supports GW as well, and vice versa.

In my opinion all of that would make for a more vibrant and thriving hobby scene. I suspect it could totally change their market penetration as well. GW makes niche luxury goods that can't quite squeek over the hump into the mainstream. If GW supported the creation of those options it would allow gamers the breadth of choice that car enthusiasts have between making a low rider with hydraulics, a fiery sports car, or some mom's minivan. And that might be the impetus GW needs to really take off.

(And of course, selfishly I would hope increased competition would encourage GW to reduces prices to increase sales volume.)

TL;DR - Kreuger and Zion disagree.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kreuger said:


> And of course, selfishly I would hope increased competition would encourage GW to reduces prices to increase sales volume.


Just as a note, if Chapterhouse are sucessful in this then NOTHING good will come from it in terms of competition.

Competition is other vendors in the market place selling alternative products.
Mantic, Infinity, Privateer Press and so on are competitors and they provide alternatives at differing price points for collectors/players of miniatures.

Don't even for a minute think that Chapterhouse is the Evangelist who is leading the crusade against the evil corporation. 

If Chapterhouse is successful all that will happen is than an additional overhead will be placed on GW to maintain it's IP and that overhead will be passed on to us. GW raising it's prices will allow the other manufacturers to raise theirs as they maintain relative price points to GW.

I say again, nothing good will come of this for *us* should Chapterhouse win.


----------



## Zion

Kreuger said:


> Before I begin any sort of rebuttal, I want to say I appreciate the time, effort and thought that went into your post. I don't always appreciate what I perceive as your tone, and we clearly disagree on many topics but I'm open to a good debate. I also appreciate your use of quotes. Far too many members just quote a whole post at once which often does little but stretch out the forum. So I appreciate your thoughtful point by point argument.


Even if I don't agree with you, I've always felt it's best to address what I'm arguing against directly as to prevent confusion about my counter-points at a later time. It's too easy to get muddled in a long post trying to determine what I'm saying in relation to what your saying. 

So I'm glad you appreciate the extra tiny bit of effort breaking it down with quote tags, it's nice to know that I'm doing something people appreciate.

As for my tone, I tend to speak rather flatly. 

Honestly, I tend to go on for too long at times so I aim for brevity which can, thanks to the way written language work, come off as me being flippant or disrespectful because I'm going straight to the point instead of working my way to it. There is rarely any malice or anger when I'm posting, just me being "matter-of-fact" and myself about things.



Kreuger said:


> TL;DR - Kreuger and Zion disagree.


And here's where I'm living this micro-debate because we can continue to kick this horse until eternity and no one would "win". I have strong feelings about what CHS specifically did, and how they crossed the line, and you have feelings the other ways. That's the best way to leave this instead of turning it into a flame war. 

As for the Alien thing, I know about that a bit more because it's been brought up in other topics about this (I've read through Dakka's thread on this and they basically want GW to be legally pounded in on the back door by this.....but a number of the posters still play 40k on a regular basis and don't understand that IP is a slippery slope that can lead to the death of a company if something goes wrong, especially a publicly traded on like GW who needs their investors to have confidence in the company, or they're gone and GW is broke and dead.....it's all very confusing how they think over there) and I've been following this for some time now.

Fun fact: CHS expert witness? He can talk about elements of GW's work that's similar to other things, and how CHS has those same similar elements from similar sources (as a way to claim that CHS copied the same things, not GW) but can't talk about anything pertaining to GW and their ability to claim copyright and/or trademark on anything. That takes quite a bit of wind out of CHS's sails right there as they wanted him to try and talk about how generic GW was and how they shouldn't be able to own these elements....but he can't.


----------



## humakt

And back to tthe main event. How is the case progressing? It looks like they need a few days of next week left for the trial (summing up on the 12th if required.)


----------



## Kreuger

Zion said:


> And here's where I'm living this micro-debate because we can continue to kick this horse until eternity and no one would "win". I have strong feelings about what CHS specifically did, and how they crossed the line, and you have feelings the other ways. That's the best way to leave this instead of turning it into a flame war.


That's fair enough. I suspect I'm no more interested in a flame war than you are.

You have also underscored something else for me. My consideration of this trial and what I think the outcome will be is fairly generalized and it is based on what I perceive as the nature of the IP considerations in the trial. But I'm certainly no expert.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Don't even for a minute think that Chapterhouse is the Evangelist who is leading the crusade against the evil corporation.


To both your points, I don't consider Chapterhouse an evangelist, and I'm not particularly impressed with their work or it's quality. But I think there is also a slippery slope here regarding what sort of 'related' product another company can sell. 

For example, there's a strong parallel between a company selling a new "iPhone case" without Apple's approval, and Apple suing a company for selling said aftermarket product because it infringes on their rights. I could see suing a company trying to sell a competing product and calling it an iPhone. But I'm not sure our commerce laws really support preventing a vendor from selling a product "for use with" a Games Workshop product. 

As I understand our law, it is very important that a company making aftermarket goods clearly market those goods in such a way to differentiate those aftermarket products from those of the main producer. It would not surprise me if Chapterhouse loses or partially loses on the grounds that their labeling and marketing practices were unclear, even if they don't lose on infringement of the actual models. 

For instance, if Chapterhouse did not use the Warhammer terminology in a way that would clearly indicate their product wasn't made by or endorsed by Games Workshop - that is almost certainly actionable if it can be proven to hurt GW brand value, which I don't think would be much of a stretch. However I can't even guess what kind of compensation that would qualify for, thousands of dollars over all? Pennies per model or confusing sales description? Would they have to pay back royalties? That all remains to be seen.


p.s. - Zion and Magpie, I continue to appreciate the civility of our disagreement. =)


----------



## Zion

humakt said:


> And back to tthe main event. How is the case progressing? It looks like they need a few days of next week left for the trial (summing up on the 12th if required.)


No real news at the moment. Dakka has been keeping up on the documents published and nothing from the trial itself has been published. There is a good chance that unless CHS posts something online about the results that we won't know for a couple of weeks.



Kreuger said:


> That's fair enough. I suspect I'm no more interested in a flame war than you are.


Yeah, I'm pretty past wanting to burn down the internet over a petty debate.



Kreuger said:


> p.s. - Zion and Magpie, I continue to appreciate the civility of our disagreement. =)


Hey, as long as people aren't smashing their cocks into the keyboard in an attempt to prove that they have the biggest epeen I don't see what we really need to stray from being civil. 

I'm far more interested in how this case is ruled than who has the biggest dick on the internet anyways.


----------



## bitsandkits

The Iphone case comes up alot as an example, but i dont think its about after market, the iphone example woud be parallel to a KR multicase, so its a product to protect your purchased product and doesnt impact on the sale of the phone.

But for example selling salamander shoulder pads that fit marines or salamander rhino doors, directly impacts on GWs (FW in this case) bottom line, that isnt an aftermarket sale , that is a very direct competitor for a GW product, which i assume is why GW wont let it slide where as apple isnt really bothered by the aftermarket stuff because its not competing with its core business product, but look at apples approach towards samsung (and vice versa)?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kreuger said:


> To both your points, I don't consider Chapterhouse an evangelist, and I'm not particularly impressed with their work or it's quality.


Sorry I didn't really aim that comment at you specifically. I was really wanting to comment on the fair wide spread notion that Chapterhouse will "teach GW a lesson" which I feel is really not thinking through what the out come for we the consumers from this case. I cannot think of a positive.



bitsandkits said:


> The Iphone case comes up alot as an example, but i dont think its about after market, the iphone example woud be parallel to a KR multicase, so its a product to protect your purchased product and doesnt impact on the sale of the phone.
> 
> But for example selling salamander shoulder pads that fit marines or salamander rhino doors, directly impacts on GWs (FW in this case) bottom line, that isnt an aftermarket sale , that is a very direct competitor for a GW product, which i assume is why GW wont let it slide where as apple isnt really bothered by the aftermarket stuff because its not competing with its core business product, but look at apples approach towards samsung (and vice versa)?


That's it in a nutshell as far as I am concerned and kind of what I was getting at with the auto parts.
Making something that can be used with a mini is different to something that is a substitute to a component of the mini.

Also using GW terminology is to my mind being a little misleading, indicating some sort of endorsement of the product.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

On this point I am going to have to chime in .... if you look at my avatar you will see not one but two Jeeps. Switch GW out for Jeep (Chrysler sub company) and you would effectively be telling me that if I wanted to replace the top that I would have to get one through a Jeep dealer. A new soft top is over $800 US if you get it through them.

I got one for under $550 and it is an improved top with tinted soft windows. This top was made by Bestop, and is the tightest fitting aftermarket top there is. What most people do NOT know is that they are the SAME EXACT TOP. I mean like literally, the same top. Bestop has made the soft tops for Jeeps since 1987. The only difference is this: The Bestop has their name stitched in a tag that is right above the rear windows. Why should I pay $250 more for the same thing without tinted windows? 

I understand that not everything that CHS done was right and above board, but I seriously doubt that GW should be able to say "We make the only doors that fit our models, you shall use ours or nothing!" .... this would be wrong in my book. Would I buy anything from CHS? Probably not, but do I like that I have the option to? Abso-fucking-lutely. GW has pulled a vast amount of shady shit prior to this trial and I think that they are going to pay for it now.

Will it shut them down? I honestly doubt it. I do however believe that they are going to get a bloody nose from this though. Things will move on and there will be price hikes, probably double the prices in Australia too. I seriously think that they will not release a Codex without having all of the models for it too .... so there is a bright side to it .... more shiny for us.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

They're not saying you can't put aftermarket parts on your Jeep they are saying you can't put the GW brand on the parts for your Jeep.


----------



## Zion

OIIIIIIO said:


> On this point I am going to have to chime in .... if you look at my avatar you will see not one but two Jeeps. Switch GW out for Jeep (Chrysler sub company) and you would effectively be telling me that if I wanted to replace the top that I would have to get one through a Jeep dealer. A new soft top is over $800 US if you get it through them.


It's not quite the same thing as you are _replacing_ something in the Jeep metaphor. This is about _substituting _the model with 3rd part knock offs before hand. It's like you bought your Jeep from some shady company in China rather than Jeep themselves.


----------



## Zion

Double Posting just so no one misses this through me editing. This is the summary from BoLS, shamelessly borrowed. I'm looking for links to the documents for the interested (and myself ).



> *UPDATE: END OF WEEK 1 Summary*
> 
> Testomony was heard from:
> Alan Merrett (GW head of IP)
> Andy Jones (Head of Licensing/Legal)
> Gil Steveson (GW Chief Council)
> 
> Nick Valluci (Owner of CHS)
> 
> *Alan Merrett Testimony:*
> 
> Merrett outlined a general summary of GW's point of view with several points:
> 
> - GW takes pride in the "quality and originality" of their products. They do not like when any other company makes miniatures that are based on their own product line, viewing many of these to be of inferior quality. Me mentioned the aftermarket for add-ons "makes us jolly-cross indeed"
> 
> *Andy Jones Testimony:*
> 
> Jones laid out many GW points points involving both licensing and financials under questioning:
> 
> -GW latest annual numbers reflect revenue of $54 million USD in North american sales. 50% of that was 40K, the other 50% all other GW products sales combined.
> 
> -GW was described as having licensing agreements with "big companies", and there is a perception that any such "big companies" would be upset by percieved theft of GW IP. He introduced no evidence of licensees becoming upset having actually occurred.
> 
> -GW is concerned that the poor quality of CHS products will rub off or bring down the percieved quality of the GW line in the eyes of licensees. He introduced no evidence of this having actually occurred.
> 
> -GW feels that they should get to decide when a product they invent in print and illustration gets to come to market in the form of a physical miniature. When a company such as CHS introduces a competing miniature that was previously unreleased into the market ahead of GW, they consider this this "poisoning the well". Other companies such Kromlech, Maxmini, Scibor, Hitech were listed by name as being examples this concept.
> 
> -GW considers the following naming schemes to be acceptable for the aftermarket, applying to all products that interact with their own 40K products:
> PRODUCT NAME: "compatible with 28mm science fiction miniatures"
> PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: "compatable with Games Workshop [insert exact GW kit title]"
> 
> -Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"
> 
> -GW Legal has an "IP Protection Group" which investigates allegations of IP infringement and decides whether/how to proceed. They are usually first alerted to alleged IP infringement by GW customers who they consider to be "our first line of defense as it were".
> 
> -GW has 200+ casefiles on organizations and individuals it is investigating for potential legal action against.
> 
> *Nick Valluci Testmony*
> -Mr Valluci was examined by GW council vigorously.
> 
> -CHS disclosed that its total gross revenue before expenses for a roughly 4 year period in question was @$400,000
> -Valluci took home $3000 a month from CHS, while his overseas partner took home $2000 per month.
> 
> *Evidence Brought Before the Jury:*
> 
> The following game product was entered into evidence by the Judge over objections from GW council:
> SPACE MARINES SCIENCE FICTION MINIATURES RULES (1980, Fantasy Games Unlimited)


EDIT: Here is the list of what is specifically on trial:
http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.375.0.pdf

I'm still looking for more.

EDIT 2: Most of the documents are the actual depositions which I'm reading through now. They're here: http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/ The PDFs of June 1st through 9th. 

It's plain to see CHS' planned defence is to pick apart GW's ability to protect terms it's using from what it's asked in the depositions and what it chose to use in the trials.

That said I have a feeling that if GW loses "Space Marine" as a term, come October we'll be seeing "Adeptus Astartes" as our new package deal, and it may infact be why the Marines waited to be updated until 4 months after the trial: to have time to repackage and print all the materials. ...But that's just a theory of mine.


----------



## scscofield

That evidence makes me lawl, is that predating GW?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I don't see what relevance a game from the 80's has on the case ?


----------



## scscofield

If it predates GW, then 'space marine' miniatures isn't a exclusive creation of GW, is what I assume the evidence implies.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

scscofield said:


> If it predates GW, then 'space marine' miniatures isn't a exclusive creation of GW, is what I assume the evidence implies.


That is only relevant if the guys who did that book created a miniature that is identical to GW's.


----------



## scscofield

::shrugs:: is only reason I can think of.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

scscofield said:


> ::shrugs:: is only reason I can think of.


Maybe CHS lawyers have something up their sleeve? Guess we'll as it pans out.

I think GW accepting that "Compatible with Space Marines Tactical Squad" or similar is an acceptable notation to a 3rd party product is interesting.


----------



## Zion

I'll quote myself here so my updates don't get lost:



> EDIT: Here is the list of what is specifically on trial:
> http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/it...0791.375.0.pdf
> 
> I'm still looking for more.
> 
> EDIT 2: Most of the documents are the actual depositions which I'm reading through now. They're here: http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/it...s.ilnd.250791/ The PDFs of June 1st through 9th.
> 
> It's plain to see CHS' planned defence is to pick apart GW's ability to protect terms it's using from what it's asked in the depositions and what it chose to use in the trials.
> 
> That said I have a feeling that if GW loses "Space Marine" as a term, come October we'll be seeing "Adeptus Astartes" as our new package deal, and it may infact be why the Marines waited to be updated until 4 months after the trial: to have time to repackage and print all the materials. ...But that's just a theory of mine.


As for the Space Marine, I believe CHS is trying to chip away at GW being able to protect the term. In one of the depositions I'm reading they double highlighted Robert Naismith stating that he thinks the term may have come from Heinlein's work.

GW is using the parts of how it was designed though, showing that it wasn't just cribbing off of the folks who used "Space Marine" as a term but rather that it had a lot of intentional design elements that tie into history and were designed to make you feel like the model was someone who was a badass.


----------



## humakt

Magpie_Oz said:


> Maybe CHS lawyers have something up their sleeve? Guess we'll as it pans out.


CHS can't have something up thier sleeves. If they have not declared some evidence as part of thier defense I'm assuming they can't use it during the actual trial.

Although we are a biased audience and its the jury's opinion that will matter.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

humakt said:


> CHS can't have something up thier sleeves. If they have not declared some evidence as part of thier defense I'm assuming they can't use it during the actual trial.
> 
> Although we are a biased audience and its the jury's opinion that will matter.


They can't have evidence up their sleeve but perhaps there is some particular spin on the book in evidence that we have not foreseen


----------



## maddermax

200+ case files... well, I'm sure quite a few of those are simply recasters, but the ones named (Kromlech, Maxmini, Scibor, Hitech) should tell you that this isn't an isolated case, but rather GW testing the waters. GW wants to shut down or marginalize anyone who makes compatible bits, Chapterhouse was probably just the easiest test case to set a precedent.



Magpie_Oz said:


> That is only relevant if the guys who did that book created a miniature that is identical to GW's.


I believe the "Space Marine" trademark did come up, as Chapterhouse uses the term by describing it's products as "Space Marine Compatible" parts (and how the products are described was one of the disputes), but GW doesn't want the term used by them (thus the line about "28mm Science Fiction miniatures" being the preferred phrasing).


----------



## Zion

So I've gone through everything posted so far this month in this case, and it's all basically the stuff that is in the trial. So here's what I've taken out of it:

CHS is using their excerpts to set up that Games Workshop is claiming that their protected IP is nothing more than a hodge-podge of generic, pre-existing things. This is being done to specifically weaken the Jury's view of how protectable it is, and thus if CHS was even infringing on it. As this does not come down to actual facts, but rather swaying a group of people this is actually pretty clever of the lawyers.

GW on the other hand is using the evidence they've gained to show that CHS was intentionally trying to mimic them in an attempt to piggyback off of GW's IP. This is covered by excepts of emails and so on that cover that CHS had it's sculptors not directly re-casting GW's products, but they were strongly guided not to make too many changes so that it would be recognizable and be more attractive to CHS' target customers (veteran wargamers mostly). There is even evidence of using GW artwork to guide design details of the specific models.

So where does that leave us as we come upon the second week of trials and the eventual verdict? Basically it's about winning the jury to your side. CHS is paddling their canoe very furiously to try and make GW seem like they have no original ideas, while GW is using their own chosen statements from the same depositions of their employees to point out things CHS is omitting in an attempt to paint GW in a bad light (things like them using Google Image Search, but for specifics like how a lizard's skin folds to give the model some added "realism", not to just use whatever popped up).

Now depending on the jury this could be a close one as both sides have a strong arguement (though personally I'd like to say GW's is stronger because they have the emails in question to CHS' sculptors along with the sculptor's interpretations of those instructions to basically mimic GW, which gives GW the leverage to argue that CHS was stealing money out of their pockets), so it'll really come down to who can sell it better.

Honestly I want GW to win, not just because I'm on their side in this one, but because I want to see all the angry, bitter tears of ultimate sadness from everyone who spent the last 2.5 years claiming CHS had this in the bag from day 1, regardless of anything else that came up.


----------



## Rems

Zion said:


> Honestly I want GW to win, not just because I'm on their side in this one, but because I want to see all the angry, bitter tears of ultimate sadness from everyone who spent the last 2.5 years claiming CHS had this in the bag from day 1, regardless of anything else that came up.


Indeed, their anger will be delicious.


----------



## scscofield

I think it would be better for the hobby if they lost. This whole thing has forced them to release models for the shit in their codexs. If they lost it would mean they would have to improve that to keep the 'quality' they are plugging in the trial. Mutilators should have never gotten released as they are. Those models are horrible and poisoned the well worse than any 3rd party could have.


----------



## Bubblematrix

I would be careful in wishing for GW to lose this one.

If this were to happen I would highly expect GW to tighten down on how it releases things. I would expect less new stuff in codexs and likely "supplements" to include new stuff - that way they don't leave any gaps.

GWs shift to producing more of the stuff from codices is more likely just a shift in how they wanted to produce and not motivated by this case, the FW horus heresy stuff might be a reaction but not sure.

I would also expect some re-branding of the less than watertight iconography, subtle changes to nail it down hard as theirs - which might lead to some odd looking armies as newer models move more towards the tighter icons.

On the other side, the only bad I could see coming from a GW win is that they try and stomp a few of the less open and arrogant independent bits makers, which would hurt the hobby.


----------



## maddermax

I think the best (and most likely) outcome is a mixed result that neither side are happy with. GW are over reaching, CHS has done some shady things in working off GW designs and art. 

If GW wins big, then it'll go after others, spread it's net wider and take on a lot of companies even if they are working at making original designs, but compatible with GW models (and advertised as such), and even without that it will have a real chilling effect on a lot of small time model makers who might be working on sci-fi minis.

If Chapterhouse wins completely, well that will mean that companies can feel free to use explicit designs based directly (not just generally) on primary model producers works. That would affect more than just GW, but a lot of other smaller games companies who are trying to get their own lines and games established, and would have a chilling effect on them. You couldn't release art of a model you were going to release for one thing, without the possibility of someone producing it first.

There are many issues at play here, and I don't think there's any one right way to go.


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

OIIIIIIO said:


> I got one for under $550 and it is an improved top with tinted soft windows. This top was made by Bestop, and is the tightest fitting aftermarket top there is. What most people do NOT know is that they are the SAME EXACT TOP. I mean like literally, the same top. Bestop has made the soft tops for Jeeps since 1987. The only difference is this: The Bestop has their name stitched in a tag that is right above the rear windows. Why should I pay $250 more for the same thing without tinted windows?


This is an excellent example to why CHS is in the wrong for a number of reasons

1. As stated above this is a "Aftermarket" part made for Jeeps by a third party, now to make this different they have "Tinted" the windows and "Put there logo" on this. CHS on the otherhand have used GW's logo's so it appears to be from GW or at least GW approved

2. This is also an approved product by Jeep

3. Carrying on from above, this is also produced by the third pary this is the same as GW getting someone else to produce there paints like they used to, now that company can sell the same shade of paint themselves but they would need to call it a different name, rebrand etc they would not be able to stick the GW logo on and sell direct though

or at least this is how I understand it


----------



## Magpie_Oz

maddermax said:


> I believe the "Space Marine" trademark did come up, as Chapterhouse uses the term by describing it's products as "Space Marine Compatible" parts (and how the products are described was one of the disputes), but GW doesn't want the term used by them (thus the line about "28mm Science Fiction miniatures" being the preferred phrasing).


Yeh fair enough then. Thing is a Trademark doesn't have to be totally unique it simply has to be that no other competing product in the same market has a a same or similar name.

A long for gotten game from over 30 years ago I don't see as eroding GW's claim to be able to use Space Marine as a trade mark.


----------



## Bindi Baji

maddermax said:


> I think the best (and most likely) outcome is a mixed result that neither side are happy with. GW are over reaching, CHS has done some shady things in working off GW designs and art.


This pretty much sums up my feelings, I think I would like GW to win but maybe with a bit of a bloodied up nose


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Bindi Baji said:


> This pretty much sums up my feelings, I think I would like GW to win but maybe with a bit of a bloodied up nose


Why would you like that to be the outcome ?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why would you like that to be the outcome ?



If GW just wins then there is a good chance other companies will feel threatened (any further cases with another company would potentially be more likely to fall in GW's favour imo) and may become more careful and move away from the copying, however if GW win big I don't want them sueing every company that has anything slightly like a GW model.

Bearing in mind my knowledge of the law is only slightly poorer then my ability to recite war and peace whilst riding a unicycle through a minefield


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Thing is tho' GW hasn't gone near most of the miniatures companies out there, not the legit ones. It's only been going after companies that take the piss from what I can see.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Magpie_Oz said:


> Thing is tho' GW hasn't gone near most of the miniatures companies out there, not the legit ones. It's only been going after companies that take the piss from what I can see.


Indeed, but it's more a case of wanting it to stay that way then anything else


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Bindi Baji said:


> Indeed, but it's more a case of wanting it to stay that way then anything else


Why wouldn't it tho?

If there was ever a company that was so blatantly taking the piss it's Mantic so why go after CHS rather than Mantic? Because it does't impinge upon the GW brand is why.


----------



## kickboxerdog

any more news out about this


----------



## Zion

kickboxerdog said:


> any more news out about this


Frankly, not yet. The jury should be voting this week, but we may not hear the verdict until next week assuming the jury doesn't end up taking all weekend on this.


----------



## Chaosftw

Soooo if there is a hung jury or a split vote the jury should have a mega battle and the side that wins the game, wins the trail


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Chaosftw said:


> Soooo if there is a hung jury or a split vote the jury should have a mega battle and the side that wins the game, wins the trail


Sounds like a good excuse to introduce the new Apocalypse supplement.


----------



## maddermax

Some bits of testimony have been coming out, and a few other bits and pieces (there's applications for Directed Verdicts from both sides). You can find the actual documents on the Blood of Kittens link or the Dakka Dakka link (posted by Czzak). There's a bit of overlap with the links, but it's all quite interesting.

From Blood of Kittens





> Oh lord, we finally got some released testimony from the epic GW v. CH case. The case looks more and more groundbreaking and will determine exactly where our hobby will be heading. Regardless of who wins this is the one we will be talking about for years.
> 
> The trial ends tomorrow 6-14-2013.
> 
> In the meantime, we can chew on a few bits that some one decided to share with us. Get ready to dig in deep because there are some amazing testimony by the heads of GW’s IP department that will drop your mouth to the floor.
> 
> gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.386.0
> 
> gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.388.0
> 
> ilnd-1110-merged
> 
> Those three documents illustrate the judgements each side is seeking.
> 
> This main document is hundred pages of transcript and evidence taken from 6-4 to 6-6 2013.
> 
> As a warning it is an incomplete testimony as well and seems designed to only show off the worst GW IP department has to offer.
> 
> GW v. CH Trial Testimony PDF
> 
> Some of my favorite quotes I have found so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q: You can’t state — you can’t testify as to what
> materials the designers looked at for any of these products,
> to design any of the products that are allegedly infringed
> here today?
> A: I can testify that I know what they’re expected to do and
> how they’re expected to do that and what instructions they are
> expected to follow, and I can testify that those instructions
> involve generating original ideas and using Games Workshop
> original ideas as the wellspring and source of all the design
> work they do.
> 
> Q It was not any science fiction that existed within the Tau
> universe — or within the Warhammer 40K universe, you’ve
> already testified, correct?
> A Yes. It is perfectly possible for us to invent something
> from scratch, you know. That’s our stock in trade.
> 
> Q. Now, you understand you don’t get a trademark on a word just
> because you use it first, right?
> A. You get — sorry. Could you rephrase that?
> Q. Yes. There’s some terms that you have on this list that you
> are claiming are your trademarks, right?
> A. Yes. Most of the ones on the list are marks that both
> parties have agreed are our trademarks with Games Workshop
> having prior use. So, it’s not just us asserting that.
> Q. But you understand that just because you use a word first in
> commerce, that doesn’t mean you automatically get a trademark.
> You understand that, right?
> A. No, actually. If I’ve got — I don’t quite understand what
> you’re saying. If I sell a product which has a title on it and
> I’m using that as market trade for several years and
> establishing prior use, then that’s a trademark.
> Q. Let me give you an example that will probably help. If you have a product and it’s a desk, and you sell your desk, and you say this is a desk, that doesn’t mean that you automatically get a trademark on the term desk. You understand that, right?
> 
> Q. And we talked about how the word Mycetic Spore is not on the
> cover of the book, correct?
> A. Correct.
> Q. You showed us earlier that it shows up on Page 54 inside the
> book, correct?
> A. Yes. Quite prominently so.
> Q. But you’re not saying that customers are buying — if we go
> back to the cover, you’re not saying that customers are buying
> this Tyranids book because the term Mycetic Spore appears inside
> of it. You’re not saying that, correct?
> A. Sorry. I don’t understand your question. Say that again.
> Q. So, when customers see this book, they see the title
> Tyranids, right?
> A. Yes.
> Q. They see Warhammer 40,000 on the top?
> A. Yes.
> Q. You’re not saying that customers are buying this book
> because the word Mycetic Spore is used somewhere inside it.
> You’re not saying that, correct?
> A. Well, how can I say why our customers are buying things.
> They buy our products for a whole range of reasons.
> 
> Q. Games Workshop believes that the term jetbike is a valid
> trademark it owns, and no other miniatures company can use that
> term; is that correct?
> A. In tabletop — in terms of tabletop hobby war games?
> Q. Yes.
> A. That’s our belief, yes.
> Q. But jetbike is not Games Workshop’s registered trademark,
> right?
> A. No.
> Q. And you know that other companies besides Games Workshop do
> use the term jetbike in their miniatures products?
> A. Yeah. You kindly brought that to my attention during my
> deposition.
> 
> 
> 
> By far the best and grestest snippet comes from the Chapterhouse lawyers great use of words taking a dig at GW hate of the Internet.
> 
> 
> 
> A. Yeah. I mean, the jury have heard quite a lot about the
> forums that people who are fans of Warhammer 40,000 look at and
> post on, and actually — I know you’re not allowed to look at
> the Internet, but if you were allowed to look at the Internet,
> what you would see is an awful lot of speculation about this
> case, and actually our customers, our staff, and even just
> people who are interested all know about this case and have
> for a very long time. So, the likelihood of there being any
> confusion where there’s such a publicly well known case, it’s
> just not really very likely because people know.
> Q. But, Ms. Stevenson, you haven’t presented any evidence of
> confusion as to the products added in the second phase of the
> case, have you?
> A. No.
> Q. And Games Workshop’s not aware of any complaints about the
> quality of those products, either, is it?
> A. Not from people who buy the products directly, but –
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




And from the Dakka thread:





Janthkin 355433 5735762 1406.jpg said:


> Q So the designers of the Tau race did not draw inspiration
> from the look -- for the look of the Tau from within Games
> Workshop?
> A That's correct. They looked for it inside their own
> imaginations.
> Q You also testified that you wanted to look very sci-fi,
> correct?
> A Yes, probably.
> Q And by sci-fi you were referring to science fiction?
> A As popularly understood, yes.
> Q And specifically science fiction created by third parties?
> A No, I didn't say that.
> Q It was not any science fiction that existed within the Tau
> universe -- or within the Warhammer 40K universe, you've
> already testified, correct?
> A Yes. It is perfectly possible for us to invent something
> from scratch, you know. That's our stock in trade.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh. Tau are completely novel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q. And that's in a sentence that says, "Assault squads are
> equipped with close combat weapons, such as bolt pistols and
> chainswords. Their jump packs enable them to strike hard and
> fast, leaping over difficult terrain to quickly engage the
> enemy." Do you see that?
> A. Yes.
> Q. And you contend that jump pack is a trademark of Games
> Workshop; is that right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In a nutshell, this has always been my problem with GW's TM claims.
Click to expand...




Janthkin 355433 5735824 1406.jpg said:


> Another tidbit:
> 
> 
> 
> A. Yeah. I mean, the jury have heard quite a lot about the
> forums that people who are fans of Warhammer 40,000 look at and
> post on, and actually -- I know you're not allowed to look at
> the Internet, but if you were allowed to look at the Internet,
> what you would see is an awful lot of speculation about this
> case, and actually our customers, our staff, and even just
> people who are interested all know about this case and have
> for a very long time. So, the likelihood of there being any
> confusion where there's such a publicly well known case, it's
> just not really very likely because people know.
> Q. But, Ms. Stevenson, you haven't presented any evidence of
> confusion as to the products added in the second phase of the
> case, have you?
> A. No.
> Q. And Games Workshop's not aware of any complaints about the
> quality of those products, either, is it?
> A. Not from people who buy the products directly, but --
> THE COURT: That's the answer. Thanks. Next question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we turn to PX-1022, please? And let's start at
> page 2.
> Now, Ms. Stevenson, as you recall, you testified that
> this chart was put together at your direction by Games
> Workshop's hobby team, and <b>they painted and posed the Games
> Workshop figures on the right column to look like the colors
> and poses of the Chapterhouse products</b>, is that right?
> A Almost. The hobby team didn't put the chart together, but
> they did build and paint the model.
> Q And you said that you found this confusing when you see
> them side by side like this?
> A I find it compelling.
> Q You said you found it confusing, correct?
> A I said customers could find it confusing.
> Q But you haven't offered any evidence that customers have
> ever been confused by these two products, have you?
> A Well, they haven't seen these two images side by side, so
> they couldn't be.
> Q So that's a no?
> A Um --
> Q Have you offered any evidence that any customers have
> found these two products confusing?
> A I said that I thought it was obvious that they would be
> confusing.
> Q But that's not my question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> (Emphasis added.)
> 
> And finally, the nefarious "customer confusion" emails:
> 
> 
> 
> Q. "Dear sir/madam, I have recently come across this
> website and it provides the URL for a ChapterhouseStudios.com
> page selling conversion bits for Games Workshop kits."
> Do you see that part?
> A I do see that.
> Q And looking at the last sentence of that paragraph, it
> says:
> "I'm looking at their Space Marine shoulder pads
> here, Salamander, Luna Wolves, et cetera, which look
> reasonable enough, but perhaps lack the sharpness and detail
> of, quote, unquote, official Games Workshop products."
> Do you see that?
> A It says "GW," but, yes.
> Q In that last sentence, the person's distinguishing the
> Chapterhouse products that he saw from, quote, unquote,
> official GW products, isn't he?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q Okay. And this email, if we could blow up the email
> portion of the bottom third of the first page, this one is
> also sent to legal U.K.
> I assume that's Games Workshop legal, is that right?
> A That's right.
> Q Okay. And, again, it provides a URL for a
> ChapterhouseStudios.com web page, is that right?
> A That's right.
> Q And the text says:
> "Hi. I've just found this website, and they are
> offering their own resin cast conversion kits for Space Marine
> Rhino and Land Raider."
> Do you see that?
> A Yes.
> Q Okay. And looking back up to the email header, do you see
> the address where it says the email address is at an
> @Yahoo.co.uk?
> A I do.
> Q And I believe a moment ago you indicated that that would
> indicate a U.K. email address, is that right?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Ketara 355433 5735874 14720f7329ed4dce5f88731de37595f8.png said:


> Games Workshop believes that the term jetbike is a valid
> 2 trademark it owns, and no other miniatures company can use that
> 3 term; is that correct?
> 4 A. In tabletop -- in terms of tabletop hobby war games?
> 5 Q. Yes.
> 6 A. That's our belief, yes.
> 7 Q. But jetbike is not Games Workshop's registered trademark,
> 8 right?
> 9 A. No.
> 10 Q. And you know that other companies besides Games Workshop do
> 11 use the term jetbike in their miniatures products?
> 12 A. Yeah. You kindly brought that to my attention during my
> 13 deposition.
> 
> 
> 
> Games Workshop claims to own the trademark for the word 'jetbike'. :facepalm:
> 
> Mr Keener more or less demolishes GW's case for potential confusion in the market, which is interesting.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I think a lot of GWs Trademark claims have gone out the window (perhaps not all of them, but we'll see). The copyright stuff might be more crucial to how things shake out though.

As for the Directed Verdict motions, I believe Directed Verdicts are where the Judge says that under the law one side is correct on a particular issue, and tells the jury that they should rule that way (not a lawyer, so let me know if that's incorrect). So each side is asking the judge to say they're legally right. Both are interesting reading, but (of course) very biased in their presentations.


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> *snip*


I wouldn't read too far into the testimony we're seeing without seeing the whole thing. Those excepts are part of a document that is basically showing that CHS is quoting the testimonies exactly. 

After reading the Directed Verdicts it feels like two different classes of arguement here. GW is using a lot of references to back up points and attack what CHS has put forth while CHS is attacking the testimonies and not referencing half as much.

Frankly I liked GW's more. It's better presented, felt more solid and had a LOT more backing their argument up. But that's just me.


----------



## Djinn24

Without reading it all it seems as if GW is doing very poorly.


----------



## maddermax

Zion said:


> I wouldn't read too far into the testimony we're seeing without seeing the whole thing. Those excepts are part of a document that is basically showing that CHS is quoting the testimonies exactly.
> 
> After reading the Directed Verdicts it feels like two different classes of arguement here. GW is using a lot of references to back up points and attack what CHS has put forth while CHS is attacking the testimonies and not referencing half as much.
> 
> Frankly I liked GW's more. It's better presented, felt more solid and had a LOT more backing their argument up. But that's just me.


I felt quite the opposite actually, and that CHS were more direct about things and addressing the actual issues, especially on the trademark stuff, and reads better. As for the references and backing up of their arguments, you did look past the summary on the CHS motion? I thought CHS backed up their arguments quite well. 

The testimony showed pretty strongly that GW has no evidence of any customer confusion (that is customers thinking they were actually buying GW products), which is needed for trademark claims apparently, so I think CHS will win on those claims. GWs counter argument was that fair use doesn't apply, as they were using the terms in relation to "illegally copied" items, but I'm not sure that will make a difference in the law to the Trademark case itself.

The rest... well, it's anyone's guess.


----------



## Bubblematrix

I never thought I would see this in the case, CHS are using the shitty quality and poor reproduction of their products to defend on the "confusion" part of the case - their lawyers have a nice sick sense of humour there.

As for the trademarks, I think the long list has never been able to hold water, "jetbike" "jetpack" etc are too commonly coined for them to be GW trademarks.
I am interested in whether the more solid trademarks were brought up and whether they were successful when tested.

Still watching this with interest and now also mild amusement.


----------



## maddermax

Bubblematrix said:


> I never thought I would see this in the case, CHS are using the shitty quality and poor reproduction of their products to defend on the "confusion" part of the case - their lawyers have a nice sick sense of humour there.
> 
> As for the trademarks, I think the long list has never been able to hold water, "jetbike" "jetpack" etc are too commonly coined for them to be GW trademarks.
> I am interested in whether the more solid trademarks were brought up and whether they were successful when tested.
> 
> Still watching this with interest and now also mild amusement.


You've got the wrong end of the stick there. They're saying that no one thought that what CHS was selling was GW products - that is to say, CHS didn't pretend it was selling GW stuff.

To put it another way, if someone was selling "Bob's truck rims, suitable for the Ford F-150", no one would think they were getting Ford brand tire rims. The relative quality of Bob's rims is not material to the Trademark case (though perhaps it would be a copyright issue is it ripped off the designs of the official product). Similarly with CHS selling "Shouderpads compatible with GW Space Marine miniatures", but the customers know they're getting CHS stuff, so there's no trademark infringement. If customers might get confused thinking that chapterhouse was selling official parts, that would be a problem. Basically, it's to do with branding. That is a different issue from the copyright of the product itself.

At least, that's what I'm getting from it all.


----------



## bitsandkits

maddermax said:


> You've got the wrong end of the stick there. They're saying that no one thought that what CHS was selling was GW products - that is to say, CHS didn't pretend it was selling GW stuff.
> 
> To put it another way, if someone was selling "Bob's truck rims, suitable for the Ford F-150", no one would think they were getting Ford brand tire rims. The relative quality of Bob's rims is not material to the Trademark case (though perhaps it would be a copyright issue is it ripped off the designs of the official product). Similarly with CHS selling "Shouderpads compatible with GW Space Marine miniatures", but the customers know they're getting CHS stuff, so there's no trademark infringement. If customers might get confused thinking that chapterhouse was selling official parts, that would be a problem. Basically, it's to do with branding. That is a different issue from the copyright of the product itself.
> 
> At least, that's what I'm getting from it all.


but thats exactly why chapterhouse have ended up in court, they were using terms like "eldar farseer on jetbike" and "space marine salamander shoulder pads" which they did purely to get a free ride on GWs IP and is quite misleading if your not aware of GW product ranges and are relying on a websearch and chapterhouse knew that.

when they got sued there legal council told them to change the terminology, Had they done that in the first place they would have avoided the courts like other indies like Sciobor have.

personally i believe chapterhouse have tried to mislead people into thinking there stuff is GW produced or at the very least never really made a significant effort to make it clear that it wasnt until forced, even the company name FFS summons up images of a GW or FW affiliate company, plus matters were made worse by the attitude of the owner and his "fuck you i dont care" attitude,he lost his company a significant amount of good will and custom by not respecting the company he was trying to leech customers from, had he simply played the game he could have carved out a niche that would have been a nice little earner rather than possibly loosing in court and risking his ruin, no little start up venture sculpting parts for space marines is worth that.


----------



## Jezlad

bitsandkits said:


> personally i believe chapterhouse have tried to mislead people into thinking there stuff is GW produced or at the very least never really made a significant effort to make it clear that it wasnt until forced


Honestly? You think they were trying to trick people with a website that looks absolutely nothing like anything GW would use?

They did it purely for search traffic and the resulting "row" made their product pretty well known. I'd probably go as far as to say they made more money because of this case than they would of without it. 

Arbitrage gig going on here. Cause a shit storm - make $XXXX.XX more - pay court fees with $XXX.XX


----------



## Bubblematrix

Pretty much Jez, though to be honest I think in the case of conversion bits - if they are good then they will sell. CHS have certainly got their name out there, but unless they make some pretty nice and high quality kits after this then they will just become known for the case and not their bits.

Having only read the extracts it doesn't look good for GW, but time will tell (not much time).

The risk is still there of GW throwing it's toys from the pram if they lose, they could do some pretty silly things with regards to bits if they wanted, imo their best tactic is what they have done with the HH stuff - just make better kits than the competition.


----------



## bitsandkits

Jezlad said:


> Honestly? You think they were trying to trick people with a website that looks absolutely nothing like anything GW would use?
> 
> They did it purely for search traffic and the resulting "row" made their product pretty well known. I'd probably go as far as to say they made more money because of this case than they would of without it.
> 
> Arbitrage gig going on here. Cause a shit storm - make $XXXX.XX more - pay court fees with $XXX.XX


Honestly? yeah i think they were out to mislead some people that they were part of GW or in some way related to GW in some fashion, they never claimed they were and they didnt clone the GW site design or anything, but for example they could have chosen any name for the company, but they went with chapterhouse,which is a very strong association with the GW brand and its core range, plus everything they make reinforced the association,we didnt see them producing conversion kits for warjacks(though i havent checked lately).

Just because its very clear to you or I and other forum members that CHS are just a poor imitation of FW/GW, doesnt mean that to others who are not as internet savvy or familar with the game range cant be duped by CHS.

Im quite happy with GW response to the whole matter, i think GW are currently putting out a huge amount of quality stuff, no model gaps in new codexes, HH from forgeworld is going down a storm and many of the reasons people used to use as an excuse to buy from chapterhouse(and other indies) are quickly disappearing, GW has been forced to change its methods and likely this law suit even if they loose portions of it will make the company stronger because they will have to do a much better job protecting its IP in the future, that will mean the areas that indies can exploit GW'S IP will be eroded as GW close the holes or make better offical models/bitz , you only need look at the Primarchs as an example, i imagine many people who were toying with the idea of buying an indie produced primarch model have suddenly gone "im gonna save my money and buy the FW one when it comes out" .

End of the day im a picky bastard when it comes to models, nothing CHS has produced up to press has made me think " i would quite like to own that", but some of the things they are selling on the other hand have made me wince to think someone thought that item was good enough to charge money for.


----------



## GrizBe

Reading though that it reads to me that GW are coming out on top. The only 'trade marks' they seem to have lost on are generic terms like 'jet pack'. Everything else seems to have been upheld their way.

Hell... seeing how its going so far, I'd be surprised if CH comes away from this without having to sell off his organs.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Are the full transcripts of the case available anywhere or do they only become available after the case is finished?


----------



## GrizBe

Probably only afterwards... since its ongoing, don't think they'd release everything so people can't influence the jury.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

It would be interesting reading as I doubt very much that what has been released so far is the full story and it all seems to be very biased against GW. If the case was ever likley to go this badly for GW I doubt they would have even taken it to court in the first place.


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> I felt quite the opposite actually, and that CHS were more direct about things and addressing the actual issues, especially on the trademark stuff, and reads better. As for the references and backing up of their arguments, you did look past the summary on the CHS motion? I thought CHS backed up their arguments quite well.
> 
> The testimony showed pretty strongly that GW has no evidence of any customer confusion (that is customers thinking they were actually buying GW products), which is needed for trademark claims apparently, so I think CHS will win on those claims. GWs counter argument was that fair use doesn't apply, as they were using the terms in relation to "illegally copied" items, but I'm not sure that will make a difference in the law to the Trademark case itself.
> 
> The rest... well, it's anyone's guess.


I'm sorry but CHS' cherry picked bits of testimony hardly count as GW losing this one all the way. In terms of an debate standpoint I feel GW was the one with the purer debate and CHS was using ad hominem. 



Bubblematrix said:


> I never thought I would see this in the case, CHS are using the shitty quality and poor reproduction of their products to defend on the "confusion" part of the case - their lawyers have a nice sick sense of humour there.
> 
> As for the trademarks, I think the long list has never been able to hold water, "jetbike" "jetpack" etc are too commonly coined for them to be GW trademarks.
> I am interested in whether the more solid trademarks were brought up and whether they were successful when tested.
> 
> Still watching this with interest and now also mild amusement.


You catch the bit where CHS tried to argue that confusion between products is no longer an issue because of this trial? Yeah, they're kind of insane I think.



maddermax said:


> You've got the wrong end of the stick there. They're saying that no one thought that what CHS was selling was GW products - that is to say, CHS didn't pretend it was selling GW stuff.
> 
> To put it another way, if someone was selling "Bob's truck rims, suitable for the Ford F-150", no one would think they were getting Ford brand tire rims. The relative quality of Bob's rims is not material to the Trademark case (though perhaps it would be a copyright issue is it ripped off the designs of the official product). Similarly with CHS selling "Shouderpads compatible with GW Space Marine miniatures", but the customers know they're getting CHS stuff, so there's no trademark infringement. If customers might get confused thinking that chapterhouse was selling official parts, that would be a problem. Basically, it's to do with branding. That is a different issue from the copyright of the product itself.
> 
> At least, that's what I'm getting from it all.


From the 3 emails sent into GW, one mentioned that they didn't know if CHS had some kind of license, so the argument that confusion could exist (at least in that someone had okayed this officially which would then reflect badly on GW because the products sucked) and still leaves GW room to argue that their brand was being hurt by this.


----------



## Djinn24

bitsandkits said:


> Im quite happy with GW response to the whole matter, i think GW are currently putting out a huge amount of quality stuff, no model gaps in new codexes, HH from forgeworld is going down a storm and many of the reasons people used to use as an excuse to buy from chapterhouse(and other indies) are quickly disappearing,


Please point me in the direction of GWs Farseer or Warlock on jetbike please, I have been waiting years to buy some....


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Please point me in the direction of GWs Farseer or Warlock on jetbike please, I have been waiting years to buy some....


Something they were missing before and might not be updating until we potentially see new jetbikes. 

I'm not saying it excuses the lack of a missing model, but let's not pretend CHS was ever doing things above board either when they went to fill in stuff. Merrit testified that while talking to Jes that the Tervigon that was planned had to be scrapped and redone to keep from looking like they copied CHS.

I do wonder if other conversion kits caused real models to suffer the same fate.


----------



## bitsandkits

djinn24 said:


> Please point me in the direction of GWs Farseer or Warlock on jetbike please, I have been waiting years to buy some....


Well one could argue that the rider on the current jet bike could be a farseer or a warlock as he doesnt look like anything in the current range, but i understand what your point is, the lack of something doesnt grant the right to another company to make it,well i suppose it might after the case but i seriously doubt it.


----------



## ntaw

Just for a moment, lets say CH wins this court case. What would that mean for GW and other miniature manufacturers?

Sorry if this has been addressed, there's a lot of pages to sift through in this thread.


----------



## GrizBe

ntaw said:


> Just for a moment, lets say CH wins this court case. What would that mean for GW and other miniature manufacturers?
> 
> Sorry if this has been addressed, there's a lot of pages to sift through in this thread.


Assuming CH wins... firstly everything that GW couldn't copyright, would change, be completely redone, and would be copyrighted. Soo all those none official chapter shoulder pads etc would be rendered obsolete and useless and your army you've converted them with would no longer be that army you intended it to be used as.

Every model that is in a codex that another company has produced a model for that GW hasn't will probably get written out overnight. 

We'll see a flood of crappy, low quality knock of parts in the market as those people who were worried about copyright issues, no longer held back, will flood the market and we'll end up with a sea of shitty parts and GW banning everything that isn't 100% GW from its stores and tournaments... so no more conversions.

Basically, if CH wins... it would fuck the hobby up completely as GW would be forced to change everything.


----------



## Zion

GrizBe said:


> Assuming CH wins... firstly everything that GW couldn't copyright, would change, be completely redone, and would be copyrighted. Soo all those none official chapter shoulder pads etc would be rendered obsolete and useless and your army you've converted them with would no longer be that army you intended it to be used as.
> 
> Every model that is in a codex that another company has produced a model for that GW hasn't will probably get written out overnight.
> 
> We'll see a flood of crappy, low quality knock of parts in the market as those people who were worried about copyright issues, no longer held back, will flood the market and we'll end up with a sea of shitty parts and GW banning everything that isn't 100% GW from its stores and tournaments... so no more conversions.
> 
> Basically, if CH wins... it would fuck the hobby up completely as GW would be forced to change everything.


Don't forget the massive amount of re-boxing and re-branding we'd likely see as well as the consumers (that's all of us) being stuck with the bill.

Honestly the only ones who win from this are the 3rd party companies who'd be able to shill more openly and freely, everyone one else gets fucked in the wallet.


----------



## Djinn24

Or things continue much as they have been. You guys are forgetting that most of this lawsuit is over the language used on the site, not the product itself. If it was about the bits themselves Scribor would ha e been sued long ago.


----------



## GrizBe

djinn24 said:


> Or things continue much as they have been. You guys are forgetting that most of this lawsuit is over the language used on the site, not the product itself. If it was about the bits themselves Scribor would ha e been sued long ago.


Actually it is the bits too as it was bits using GW trademarked icons that started the case... not just the fact CH was calling them by GW names on its website.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Or things continue much as they have been. You guys are forgetting that most of this lawsuit is over the language used on the site, not the product itself. If it was about the bits themselves Scribor would ha e been sued long ago.


Thanks for assuming that I forgot what I was following for the last 2.5 years. This case has to do with copyrights AND trademarks being used. That applies to models AND language used on the site.

Also BoLS is pending the verdict. Apparently one of their members is in the courtroom. I'll have it up as soon as they do.


----------



## ntaw

djinn24 said:


> Or things continue much as they have been. You guys are forgetting that most of this lawsuit is over the language used on the site, not the product itself. If it was about the bits themselves Scribor would ha e been sued long ago.


Thanks for pointing out Scribor to me; yeah. If it was about models more than just CH would be involved indeed.


----------



## Zion

ntaw said:


> Thanks for pointing out Scribor to me; yeah. If it was about models more than just CH would be involved indeed.


No, GW was after CHS for ripping off their designs too. This was more than just "they used this" language from day 1.


----------



## GrizBe

Thing is though Scribor haven't ever used trademarked icon or names on any of their products, like Ch has done... nore, have they blatently copied designs and have at least attempted to make their own unique models despite trying for a 'space marine' vibe with its sf range.


----------



## ntaw

Zion said:


> No, GW was after CHS for ripping off their designs too. This was more than just "they used this" language from day 1.


So you really feel that the entire hobby will suffer from a CH win?

Hypothetically, of course. I see GW coming out on top.


----------



## Zion

ntaw said:


> So you really feel that the entire hobby will suffer from a CH win?
> 
> Hypothetically, of course. I see GW coming out on top.


I see the customers getting screwed over honestly. We would be paying for GW to repackage and rebrand EVERYTHING that they lost in this trial. You like Space Marines? Get used to Adeptus Astartes instead. That kind of thing.

I think a lot of the pro-CHS crowd forget that. They also forget that while companies like Scribor do make compatible parts with GW's models they aren't using GW designs on everything. CHS was. CHS was using GW's artwork to make actual models of things, and they admitted this. This wasn't a case about after market parts, this was about straight up stealing GW's cookies, adding frosting and trying to sell them down the street.


----------



## GrizBe

ntaw said:


> So you really feel that the entire hobby will suffer from a CH win?


Yes. The thing is, IF CH win, it won't be just GW that's affected... We'll see people starting to sell knock off parts for other system too. They're already out there, but the only thing that'll come of a ruling saying CH hasn't ripped off anything will be lots of blatent copycat shod merchants springing up to exploit the market as much as they can, loosing everyone sales and costing the legitimate buyers more as we foot the bill for all the rebranding etc that'll happen.

However, if GW win, the only looser are the rip off merchants like CH.


----------



## Djinn24

My apologies Zion, I forgot you're the only one who as kept am eye on this since the start. I guess you're working in the marketing department now as well since you 'know' about all the rebranding they will have to do. 

Here's the deal. People have been producing GW compatible kits for years, well before CHS came about. GW has more to worry about from new miniature games then people producing add on kits to their existing kits. Why? Because you have to own the original box sets from GW to add the parts to. 

He'll I have two ideas for accessories to kits that would be nice for gamers. The issue as it stands is I can not put what models the kits are for because of GW since on aftermarket add on.


----------



## Zion

Still pending a final judgement but here was the jury's decision:



> Some initial notes:
> This is a Jury Verdict, and has not yet become a Final Judgement
> 
> Breaking down the counts along the different categories we have:
> 
> Copyright Claims
> 160 claims alleged against CHS
> -GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
> -CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.
> 
> General Trademark Claims
> 9 claims alleged against CHS
> -CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.
> 
> Disputed Trademark Claims
> 21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
> CHS won 11 claims
> GW won 10 claims
> 
> GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
> 61 claims alleged against CHS
> CHS won 35 claims
> GW won 27
> 
> Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
> CHS lost on some individual products including:
> -Doomseer
> -Dark Elf
> 
> CHS won on some individual products including:
> -Jetbike
> -Super-heavy walker model
> -Lizard Ogre
> 
> Damages Awarded:
> CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD
> 
> Both sides may appeal the ruling.
> 
> Thoughts and Implications:
> It's looking like however CHS as an entity comes out of this ruling, the implications for the 3rd party industry are profound.
> 
> -The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
> -Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
> -While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.


----------



## GrizBe

Reading though that... CH has lost, despite winning on several points... most notable the generic stuff... 'jet bikes, jump packs' etc... 

The bad stuff however is the use of trademarks stuff... I can see GW definately appealing those decisions or we'll end up getting a total rebrand of GW stuff to remove all the non copyrighted material.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GrizBe said:


> The bad stuff however is the use of trademarks stuff... I can see GW definately appealing those decisions or we'll end up getting a total rebrand of GW stuff to remove all the non copyrighted material.


It will be interesting to see which trademarks have been ruled valid and which not. I have a feeling that many of the GW claims were based on trade names that aren't registered.


----------



## Djinn24

Glad I have my 2 Doomseers, they maybe collectable now. $25k from what CHS has stated is doable compared to what they made from the publicity this case did for his sales.


----------



## GrizBe

Magpie_Oz said:


> It will be interesting to see which trademarks have been ruled valid and which not. I have a feeling that many of the GW claims were based on trade names that aren't registered.


I'm assuming that this is the generic stuff rather then specific stuff.... IE 'Space Marines' since they appear in so many other sci-fi settings and things like that.


----------



## GrizBe

djinn24 said:


> Glad I have my 2 Doomseers, they maybe collectable now. $25k from what CHS has stated is doable compared to what they made from the publicity this case did for his sales.


Doubt it considering how poorly sculpted and out of scale they were....


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Glad I have my 2 Doomseers, they maybe collectable now. $25k from what CHS has stated is doable compared to what they made from the publicity this case did for his sales.


So you're basically saying you can profit off of someone profitting off of GW? I don't really see that as commendable.

CHS' sales boost is mostly from people who rushed to their defense and have claimed they could do no wrong in this case.

What I want to see is what exactly are the things GW lost out on. That'll tell us a lot more about what to expect going forward.


----------



## Djinn24

GrizBe said:


> Doubt it considering how poorly sculpted and out of scale they were....


They are not horrid, the worst issue was how short the trice be damned legs are compared to the body, oh and the bunny ears, but those can be removed.










The big issue is GW sculpts in heroic and the Doomseer is not, it's why she looks really skinny.


----------



## GrizBe

djinn24 said:


> They are not horrid, the worst issue was how short the trice be damned legs are compared to the body, oh and the bunny ears, but those can be removed.


Translation... as it stands, they're terrible and need modifying.


----------



## humakt

Depending on the full verdict I suspect GW will appeal unless the amount they have won out weights the losses. Either way there will be a severe tightening up of trademarks and copyrights for new models and names.

Also I don't think the pro bono lawyers will be around for any appeal case as they have been paid nothing so far.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> They are not horrid, the worst issue was how short the trice be damned legs are compared to the body, oh and the bunny ears, but those can be removed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The big issue is GW sculpts in heroic and the Doomseer is not, it's why she looks really skinny.


No, the Doomseer is frankly awful. Even taking ignoring her being a different scale she lacks the correct proportions and those rabbit ears are frankly idiotic.


----------



## Djinn24

GrizBe said:


> Translation... as it stands, they're terrible and need modifying.


Translation: it's not terrible and the worst feature some people don't like can be removed with snips and a file in 5 minutes. 

It's comparable to 2nd or 3rd edition pewter models from GW.


----------



## bitsandkits

So if GW have been awarded damages they must have won, ok some points didnt go there way but they still won damages so chapterhouse have done wrong and stolen from GW


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Zion said:


> So you're basically saying you can profit off of someone profitting off of GW? I don't really see that as commendable.


FFS Z, he'd be selling a bloody toy space man, not a teenager to a brothel or nuclear secrets to international terrorists. I'm not sure anyone actually cares whether you find it commendable or not, he wouldn't be breaking the law so what's the issue?


----------



## ntaw

At least once the trial closes 3rd party accessory manufacturers might have better luck marketing their product. Or even new avenues to do so.

Hopefully GW doesn't go on a re-branding spree if they lose the appeal.


----------



## Kreuger

Well, this sounds like a pretty good outcomes all things considered. 

Chapterhouse have to pay for stealing GW's cookies, and 3rd party and bits retailers now have a clear set of guidelines on how to produce items for the market. 

Strange as it may seem this is really how the American justice system is designed to work. People are free to do whatever they want within the laws on the books. When there's an ambiguity it gets to be debated on record, and the outcomes become jurisprudence for the future.

I'm curious to see the details as they're released. But I for one am happy with the results so far.

Zion, thanks for keeping tabs on the proceedings for the rest of us. Though until we know the final tally, let's hold off on moralizing.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> FFS Z, he'd be selling a bloody toy space man, not a teenager to a brothel or nuclear secrets to international terrorists. I'm not sure anyone actually cares whether you find it commendable or not, he wouldn't be breaking the law so what's the issue?


I didn't see the point about bragging about it on the internet like he was going to get a pat on the back, that was my point honestly.


----------



## Djinn24

bitsandkits said:


> So if GW have been awarded damages they must have won, ok some points didnt go there way but they still won damages so chapterhouse have done wrong and stolen from GW


Honestly GW lost more then they won and $25k probably won't even cover their costs for this case.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

ntaw said:


> At least once the trial closes 3rd party accessory manufacturers might have better luck marketing their product. Or even new avenues to do so.


I don't see that 3d party guys have all that much trouble at the moment.



ntaw said:


> Hopefully GW doesn't go on a re-branding spree if they lose the appeal.


GW will have little to no option but to do so.

So long Space Marines.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Honestly GW lost more then they won and $25k probably won't even cover their costs for this case.


You do know that _what_ they lost is frankly more important than _how many_ they lost right?

Example: If they lose the term Bolter, it's not as big of a deal as losing Space Marine.

CHS might have only won on very generic things, or they might have won on some very big things. We don't know yet.

And that $25,000 (unless CHS crowd sources it, which apparently might work from what I've read on Dakka) comes out of CHS' budget. They might not have the money to keep running if they lose that. 

Still waiting for the final judgement by-the-way.


----------



## Djinn24

What I understand of that part of the verdict it doesn't matter what they are called someone can still make a kit being Compatible with Adeptus Astartes or whatever they get renamed. Rebranding will not help.


----------



## bitsandkits

djinn24 said:


> Honestly GW lost more then they won and $25k probably won't even cover their costs for this case.


But they won the case, they got paid damages,what the amount is doesnt really matter, chapterhouse have to find $25k, what happens if the judge allows costs to be added to tjat amount ? Thats when the real pain for the loosing side starts,unless it works differently over there.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I think they'd ony award costs if the case was seen as a bit spurious. Given the number of determinations in CHS favour I can't see costs being awarded.

What will be interesting is to see if the pro bono will continue to the appeal.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> What I understand of that part of the verdict it doesn't matter what they are called someone can still make a kit being Compatible with Adeptus Astartes or whatever they get renamed. Rebranding will not help.


GW mentioned during they case that they don't take qualms with "compatible with". The issue is when people just up and snag their IP for their own models (as CHS did with some of their models).



bitsandkits said:


> But they won the case, they got paid damages,what the amount is doesnt really matter, chapterhouse have to find $25k, what happens if the judge allows costs to be added to tjat amount ? Thats when the real pain for the loosing side starts,unless it works differently over there.


We don't typically do costs here. Each side usually pays their own way honestly.


----------



## Djinn24

I do know that Z, I was speaking on what items we do know has been judged in CHS favor. Right now, like you and everyone I am guessing on what was decided on until the fall verdict is released. 

BnK did you buy a bunch of GW stock because you seem to be rooting very hard for GW to have won this?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

It is possible to support GW without an alterior motive Dij


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> I do know that Z, I was speaking on what items we do know has been judged in CHS favor. Right now, like you and everyone I am guessing on what was decided on until the fall verdict is released.


You got to remember that I'm watching this in 3 places at the time I'm posting this and far too many people are writing this up as a "big" win for CHS and a "big" loss for GW based on how many they won or loss.

It's not the quantity of the IP, it's the quality.

And really that's what I want to see is what specifically was lost so we can guess were things will go from here.


----------



## scscofield

I don't see GW going on a restocking spree, they will just slowly phase anything that they can't protect out. It would cost them more to go hog wild and restock/protect everything than it would to just start cycling the shit out over time.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

One of the advantages of being copied is that it gives you total control over the copier.

For example all GW has to do is bring out a new Tac Squad kit with a lug on it that the shoulder pad keys into. Any after market shoulders will no longer fit.

Same with things like jet bikes etc. All they have to do is make some fundamental change to the rules to make the CHS ones useless.


----------



## Djinn24

Magpie_Oz said:


> It is possible to support GW without an alterior motive Dij


It was simply a joke between friends. I have a personal interest in this as I said above which relied on what's allowed to be said about being an accessory for what. 

I for the most part agree that CHS products are no where near the quality of GW, but for some options there are not a lot of options eg Warlock on jet bikes.


----------



## scscofield

That is why I don't see a massive rebranding coming. There is a lot of stock out right this moment and they have been having stocking issues with the new releases. They just will make some changes and let the old shit phase out over time. The next few codexes will be a good indicator of how much they will react to this case.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> That is why I don't see a massive rebranding coming. There is a lot of stock out right this moment and they have been having stocking issues with the new releases. They just will make some changes and let the old shit phase out over time. The next few codexes will be a good indicator of how much they will react to this case.


I expect that if "Space Marine" came back unprotectable we'd see a huge re-branding in October, but that's the only thing I can specifically see them jumping up to protect like that.

The Final Judgement could throw all this out the window though depending on how the Court rules with the Jury's verdict in.


----------



## maddermax

Ruling seems about right to me. CHS gets a sharp slap on the wrist (25k ruling means they'll probably lose around 1/3rd of their take home pay for a year... but it's far from a death blow, and they'll probably be getting more money after the publicity from the trial), and has to remove some items (Doomseer for instance), but guidelines for 3rd party producers, and what they can do legally, have become more clear, and we'll probably see a lot more 3rd party bitz, especially shoulder pads. Considering the shoulder pads have been denied copyright registration twice, and now been defeated in court, I think they're pretty open to anyone who wants to produce them, as long as they're careful of the logos they use on them.

The end result is that most things will continue on as they have been, GW might rebrand a few things, but not necessarily, if they tried to rename Jetbikes to something else, people would still call them Jetbikes after all, and it might only hurt GWs product recognition.


----------



## scscofield

Makes me wonder if the shoulderpads are about to become part of the arm molds.


----------



## darkreever

Hopefully not since that could very likely limit the poses for the models.


----------



## maddermax

scscofield said:


> Makes me wonder if the shoulderpads are about to become part of the arm molds.


It's a possibility. The combination of power-armoured arm and shoulderpad would probably be more protectable, but it would probably piss off a lot of modellers.


----------



## Djinn24

GW has always been lacking in their shoulder pad selection. If they make them then they can and probably had protected them. If not then they either need to make them out of big they are not losing out. 

Prime example is the soul drinkers. GW never made their shoulder pad. So fit someone who plays them we are screwed, that is until 3rd party makes some ie CHS. Now as a happy player I buy my 3 boxes of tactical Marines and what ever various kits. GW makes $200. Now I want some shoulder pads for them and CHS makes 40 off me. GW has lost nothing. 

Adding things like a tab or building it into the arm does nothing but annoy their players and wastes money on new molds, which run $20k for a cheap one. And any competent modeler will defeat those in short time and just increase my costs more on non GW items. 

Best case GW makes a ton of plastic shoulder pads that look epic, whose case GW did nothing and nothing changes, small companies like CHS fills the gap that is left. 

Another example. I want an air ram hood for my Mustang GT. Ford didn't make one so I have to find an after market producer that folks the gap. So did made $34k off me and Cervini makes $1200.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> GW has always been lacking in their shoulder pad selection. If they make them then they can and probably had protected them. If not then they either need to make them out of big they are not losing out.
> 
> Prime example is the soul drinkers. GW never made their shoulder pad. So fit someone who plays them we are screwed, that is until 3rd party makes some ie CHS. Now as a happy player I buy my 3 boxes of tactical Marines and what ever various kits. GW makes $200. Now I want some shoulder pads for them and CHS makes 40 off me. GW has lost nothing.
> 
> Adding things like a tab or building it into the arm does nothing but annoy their players and wastes money on new molds, which run $20k for a cheap one. And any competent modeler will defeat those in short time and just increase my costs more on non GW items.
> 
> Best case GW makes a ton of plastic shoulder pads that look epic, whose case GW did nothing and nothing changes, small companies like CHS fills the gap that is left.
> 
> Another example. I want an air ram hood for my Mustang GT. Ford didn't make one so I have to find an after market producer that folks the gap. So did made $34k off me and Cervini makes $1200.


CHS wasn't just filling a missing gap though. Iron Hand Shoulder pads exist and they were making knock offs of those. I don't even know what else they were trying to knock off.

My issue with CHS has always been that there are right ways and wrong ways to do this and CHS was consistently doing it the wrong way. They wanted to get as close to GW's IP as possible to sell to those of us who were willing to spend the money. It was never like Scribor who makes stuff that GW never will (Trojan helmeted heads for example) that work with the models or just fit in the setting, it's been a consistent, intentional chipping away at GW's IP and I don't approve of pissing in the well you're trying to dip into.


----------



## Djinn24

Fair enough.


----------



## elmir

Actually, there's just one kit that really interests me, and that's the expansion of the stormraven kit. Any word on that one? I believe that's the best thing that ever came out of chapterhouse... 

I sort of agree that full new models that show too much resemblance to excisting models should be banished, but expansions from third parties? Don't see the issue with that. That happens in many industries... 

Djinn24 already pointed at the carindustry, but this happens in photography as well. Third party lenses and flashes are nothing new to augment the range on an already excisting camera body. I'm pretty sure nikon/canon sales are higher because cheaper lens alternatives excist, rather than the other way around...


----------



## increaso

Not much a win for CHS, but, to the extent that judgment was favourable, an endorsement that CHS's own competitors (that might have been a bit more shrewd) can go a bit further to compete with them.


----------



## bitsandkits

djinn24 said:


> I do know that Z, I was speaking on what items we do know has been judged in CHS favor. Right now, like you and everyone I am guessing on what was decided on until the fall verdict is released.
> 
> BnK did you buy a bunch of GW stock because you seem to be rooting very hard for GW to have won this?


I did actually, it was uploaded to Home : Bits and Kits, The biggest selection of Bits in the world yesterday if anyone is interested,i will always root for GW when its against chapterhouse, had the case been a tad closer i would have shown up at the court wearing a cheerleaders outfit and i would have high kicked and pompomed the fuck out of the chapterhouse defense! :threaten:

Anyway im wondering what this will mean once the dust settles, but not from gws point of veiw, but who elsewill be in there scopes, do any of the rulings mean gw can now go after other indies?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

djinn24 said:


> Another example. I want an air ram hood for my Mustang GT. Ford didn't make one so I have to find an after market producer that folks the gap. So did made $34k off me and Cervini makes $1200.


That's just modeling on a much larger scale. However, I do believe Cervini has a license with Ford for that. Already, I know its a sweet hood without seeing it.



bitsandkits said:


> i will always root for GW when its against chapterhouse, had the case been a tad closer i would have shown up at the court wearing a cheerleaders outfit and i would have high kicked and pompomed the fuck out of the chapterhouse defense! :threaten:


Do incriminating pics exist of you having done this in the past? :shok:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> Anyway im wondering what this will mean once the dust settles, but not from gws point of veiw, but who elsewill be in there scopes, do any of the rulings mean gw can now go after other indies?


They probably can, at least those that take the piss as blatantly as CHS did.
Right from early on the company seemed to be daring GW to have a go.


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> They probably can, at least those that take the piss as blatantly as CHS did.
> Right from early on the company seemed to be daring GW to have a go.


Let's not forget though that this ruling only affects the US, everyone else has to fight their own legal battles with GW.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Zion said:


> Let's not forget though that this ruling only affects the US, everyone else has to fight their own legal battles with GW.


Sure but are there other companies out there that have thumbed their noses so blatantly at GW? I don't think so.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

djinn24 said:


> It was simply a joke between friends. I have a personal interest in this as I said above which relied on what's allowed to be said about being an accessory for what.
> 
> I for the most part agree that CHS products are no where near the quality of GW, but for some options there are not a lot of options eg Warlock on jet bikes.


Ah fair enough :wink:


----------



## Djinn24

BnK lmao, i meant stock as in investment/ownership in the company not a bunch of new kits. Literally laughing over here.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

In the end does it really matter?

You can buy a Samsung Galaxy 2 Ultra Super MaxiPad Pluz for $5000 or you can buy Simshu Pad from a Chinese ebayer for $50.

-Whaa whaa whaa, the quality isn't the same! The chinese knock off sucks!

Then dont fucking buy it!!! Who is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy it?!

Option 1: GW makes some shoulder pads, no other choices are out there. You have to sculpt your own if you want to make your army look interesting. End of story.

Option 2: CHS makes some shoulderpads that are of much worse quality, smell like shit and contain the tears of orphans. They do however look different from what GW makes, they look like pads from artwork GW has done but never have made plastic (AND YOU GOD DAMN KNOW NEVER WILL!!).

No one is to blame for the aftermarket demand other than GW. If GW still sold bits this would remove a large portion of the market. If they opened a new entity that focused on nothing else but alternative bits that would kill off another large portion of the market.

But no matter what GW will only lose money due to GWs own mistakes.
Models are too expensive = Creates need for alternative models, worse quality or not doesn't matter as long as there is demand.
Models all look the same = Creates demand for creativity which in turn results in people buying alternative bits as it's easier than sculpting your own stuff.

There are alternatives in every industry in the world, it's called competition and is the reason innovation happens.

GW doesn't want everyone to play their games, they want the people who can afford to pay the price they want to play their game. They dont want to over saturate the market as that lowers the value of their brand, there are not many industries in which you can get at least 50% back of what you paid for something 10 years after you bought it.

GW offers an elitist hobby for the privileged few and that's they way they want it. They think they are Apple and they are selling Iphones but just as the phone market there are cheaper alternatives out there.

I will always advocate voting with your wallet. If the rules are too expensive then get them some other way, the models are too expensive then proxy. To be honest I'd rather play vs a proxy army than vs a GW army as it might look really cool. Sure someone showing up with green army men might make me feel like I've wasted my time buying, painting and customizing my models but the choice is always with me, I can walk away from the table and not play.

[sarcasm]As we know, this hobby is only for the elitist few[/sarcasm]

In the end it comes down to the consumer, we all feel entitled to be able to play GW games yet buying the actual models might be out of our reach. It's unfair that some people get to drive Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc and I'm stuck with a 1980s Volvo, but in the end I can still get from A to B for 1/1000th the price of a super sports car.

There will always be choice, whether GW wants there to be or not. Remember GW is the company that features conversion articles in their WD yet doesn't want us to be able to buy just the bits to be able to do those conversion. Thanks to people like BnK we can get the bits we need from actual GW kits to do our conversion, the alternative would be not to convert at all or use non GW parts.

There is a reason people say all SM are just SM, because they all look the same just with a different color. People want to make their army special so they want alternative bits, which GW do not provide (not enough of anyway).

It doesn't really matter anyway, in the future you can just download a file and 3D print your shoulderpads...


----------



## bitsandkits

djinn24 said:


> BnK lmao, i meant stock as in investment/ownership in the company not a bunch of new kits. Literally laughing over here.


I know what you meant lol, but figured a cheeky plug for Home : Bits and Kits, The biggest selection of Bits in the world inside one of the threads with alot of traffic wouldnt be a bad idea


----------



## Count_the_Seven

It worked BnK! ;-)


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So does this mean I can use non GW bits in their stores yet or is that still banned?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Words_of_Truth said:


> So does this mean I can use non GW bits in their stores yet or is that still banned?


That will be banned for all eternity, even if you needed said bits to live GW would still ban their use...


----------



## ntaw

Not that I go by my local store for anything but paint, but they maintain that each model has to be 50% GW or something to that effect. If your store is banning use of non GW bits just don't go. Get other people to not go. Tell the store why they have no involvement in events and maybe it will change.


----------



## elmir

That won't work. The only thing you can hope for, is for a reasonable store manager that doesn't mind the odd third party bit. 

The reason it doesn't work, is because too many people are dependant on the GW store to actually play the game. It takes up a lot of space and you need decent terrain etc. That's a luxury I'm sure only a small % of GW players have. 

Second reason it doesn't work, is that stores don't gain any money from you playing there. Deciding not to play there isn't punishing the store in any way. But what about buying in that shop then? 

Doesn't work either. You are going to buy your model elsewhere... Either way, the money is going back to GW and they own a huge chain of stores. Also... quite a few of the younger players are forced to buy from their local shop, because they don't have the mobility or visacard/whatever to order online.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

My local store used to have a battle bunker but due to the reduction in money they couldn't pay the rent and had to move across the street to a much smaller shop. Now they suggest going to the local games club. It does come across as they are having their cake and eating it as games clubs don't mind the use of third party bits but if you then went and used it in the GW store you may be denied despite the store suggesting you go to the games club in the first place.


----------



## ntaw

elmir said:


> That won't work. The only thing you can hope for, is for a reasonable store manager that doesn't mind the odd third party bit.
> 
> The reason it doesn't work, is because too many people are dependant on the GW store to actually play the game. It takes up a lot of space and you need decent terrain etc. That's a luxury I'm sure only a small % of GW players have.
> 
> Second reason it doesn't work, is that stores don't gain any money from you playing there. Deciding not to play there isn't punishing the store in any way. But what about buying in that shop then?
> 
> Doesn't work either. You are going to buy your model elsewhere... Either way, the money is going back to GW and they own a huge chain of stores. Also... quite a few of the younger players are forced to buy from their local shop, because they don't have the mobility or visacard/whatever to order online.


Good points, elmir. I guess I'm just idealistic in that people can change the way businesses are run through abstaining from a product/service/event. I've never liked the way I was treated in store, and it pushed me and my buddy to both get sweet tables at home to play on (not to mention go online for purchases, not that the money doesn't still go to GW). Our group is slowly growing, with both of us hosting weekly games. I've always been of the opinion that we have two options in life, accept the way things are or accept responsibility for the changes necessary to make you happier- good or bad. I play less games against less of a variety of armies, but I have more fun doing it now.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Have any of your lads raised your concerns with GW?

They do listen


----------



## elmir

Words_of_Truth said:


> My local store used to have a battle bunker but due to the reduction in money they couldn't pay the rent and had to move across the street to a much smaller shop. Now they suggest going to the local games club. It does come across as they are having their cake and eating it as games clubs don't mind the use of third party bits but if you then went and used it in the GW store you may be denied despite the store suggesting you go to the games club in the first place.


This has been the business strategy of GW for quite a while now. Not necesarily increasing sales, but cutting costs whenever possible. It can be read in every single quarterly report for the last few years. Smaller (one man run) shops are becoming the norm. 

GW doesn't earn a cent from letting you play at their stores. Only if you buy stuff. Using the local gameclub is smart in that regards. 

If that strategy is going to continue to be viable in the future, remains to be seen... You can only trim off so much fat.



> Good points, elmir. I guess I'm just idealistic in that people can change the way businesses are run through abstaining from a product/service/event.


Sometimes this is only partially true. The largest group of hobbiest are completely reliant on the GW store or games clubs to play. I'm pretty sure only "the lucky few" can really make a full room/table dedicated to playing wargames. 

This is why some GW stores can afford to not always have the best possible relationship with their customers sometimes. For a few reasons:

- The competition (other wargames) is fairly underpresented/in some cases none excistant. 
- Many players need those stores to even play the game they purchased. 
- A large group of young players who are reliant on mommy and daddy to buy stuff for them and without the option to shop elsewhere. 
- All stores are part of a massive chain, so if one individual shop underperforms, there is a financial buffer. 

So unfortunatly, you can have some "asshat managers" who can get away with this sort of crap for quite a while before any real action is undertaken. And it also explains why the focus is so heavy on new players, rather than veterans. Veterans can fend for themselves in terms of playing, so they aren't sucking at the GW-tit for sustenance.


----------



## falcoso

I always thought it was the norm that not GW stuff was allowed in store? And to be honest it is fairly understandable, I mean you wouldn't go to mcdonalds and then eat in Subway (just an example) so it's understandable that GW won't want you using non-GW bits in store, certainly not to build in store anyway, playing there is generally more leeway as it is the occasional bit. My local manager actually explained it pretty well: if someone asks the manager where said bit/model is from they don't want to say it's not from GW as they don't want to lose business


----------



## Iron Angel

-Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop"



HAHAHA Holy shit, really? Emptying my wallet is NOT my favorite part of the hobby. Talk about out of touch.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Iron Angel said:


> HAHAHA Holy shit, really? Emptying my wallet is NOT my favorite part of the hobby. Talk about out of touch.


He's not out of touch at all and the latest insane buying stampedes over the new releases shows that a great many people in the hobby love going and buying a new or the latest greatest kit.


----------



## Hellados

Space Hulk being a perfect example of us wanting to empty our wallets as part of the fun, that and the new rule books and codex (codexes, codex', codexs' wtf is the plural? )


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Hellados said:


> Space Hulk being a perfect example of us wanting to empty our wallets as part of the fun, that and the new rule books and codex (codexes, codex', codexs' wtf is the plural? )


Codicies.


----------



## bitsandkits

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Codicies.


shouldnt it be codexi


----------



## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Codicies.


According to GW, it's "Codexes". Likely because they stole the American way of bastardizing words.


----------



## ntaw

I always thought the plural of codex was...well...codex. Like moose. You don't see a group of mooses, no matter the hilarity of the word when you say it.


----------



## Adramalech

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Codicies.


Codices and Codexes are both correct, because it is a Latin word, but once a word enters use in the English language it is also subject to all the normal pluralization rules for English.


----------



## ntaw

^ google agreed.

I wonder how long it will be until we find out the true and final result of this court case. We've already heard the jury's ruling, but not the judges I think...?


----------



## falcoso

Zion said:


> According to GW, it's "Codexes". Likely because they stole the American way of bastardizing words.


They also have Dwarfs on the army book not Dwarves


----------



## khrone forever

ntaw said:


> I always thought the plural of codex was...well...codex. Like moose. You don't see a group of mooses, no matter the hilarity of the word when you say it.


Well...the plural of moose is moosen, just like ox goes to oxen


----------



## Zion

ntaw said:


> ^ google agreed.
> 
> I wonder how long it will be until we find out the true and final result of this court case. We've already heard the jury's ruling, but not the judges I think...?


No idea at this point. I know I'm eagerly waiting to see how this finally unfolds.



falcoso said:


> They also have Dwarfs on the army book not Dwarves


I'm guessing that's more of a trademark thing? We in the US call them "dwarves" too.


----------



## ntaw

khrone forever said:


> Well...the plural of moose is moosen, just like ox goes to oxen


Really? Well fuck my English. Check out those moosen over there, just hanging out.

It's a shame the Merriam-Webster dictionary doesn't agree with you...notice the red lines under moosen while you're typing?



Zion said:


> I know I'm eagerly waiting to see how this finally unfolds.


I'm sure the moment it hits the web you'll report it, I don't even know why I asked :victory:


----------



## unixknight

ntaw said:


> Really? Well fuck my English. Check out those moosen over there, just hanging out.
> 
> It's a shame the Merriam-Webster dictionary doesn't agree with you...notice the red lines under moosen while you're typing?


That's because, as everyone knows, the TRUE plural of 'moose' is 'meese' just like goose/geese.

:biggrin:


----------



## khrone forever

LIES, ALL OF IT LIES. the moosen shall rule the world not the meese


----------



## ntaw

Moosen is definitely a moosier word than meese, but auto-correct is barely letting me type this sentence.

This thread is in danger of being overrun.

I hope that GW loses some of the weapon terms as opposed to unit/vehicle names, as it may be less of a re-brand and more just 3rd party retailers will be able to say straight up what it's meant to replace. The ambiguous "these models also work as proxies in similarly scaled games" line makes me sad to see.


----------



## Zion

As amusing as it is, if we want to keep talking grammar can we take it to Off Topic? This thread is for the GW vs CHS case, not which made up word works best for when you have more than one Moose. Thank you.


----------



## Zion

Double post because CHS' lawyers put out a press release. Take it with a bit of salt because this is spun a bit to give CHS the best possible look (and I heard claims GW was going to be the ones doing the spinning, looks like not):



> June 17, 2013
> Winston & Strawn Defeats Hundreds of Trademark and Copyright Infringement Claims on Behalf of Pro Bono Client
> 
> Cutting-Edge Decision Protects Industries from Litigation Blocking Add-On Products
> 
> CHICAGO, IL – In a classic David-versus-Goliath battle, Winston & Strawn LLP represented Chapterhouse Studios LLC on a pro bono basis in a cutting-edge federal trademark and copyright dispute in the Northern District of Illinois (Games Workshop Limited v. Chapterhouse Studios LLC 1:10-cv-8103). The verdict of this jury trial, held in June 2013 before Judge Matthew Kennelly, confirms that copyright and trademark law should not be used to block add-on products. Winston & Strawn has litigated the case since 2010, and co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein joined the matter in 2012.
> 
> “This was a classic case of trademark and copyright bullying by a much bigger Plaintiff,” said Jennifer Golinveaux, partner in Winston & Strawn’s San Francisco office. “I am proud of the investment made by the firm, and the many attorneys who devoted themselves to making sure the intellectual property laws were not misused to squash a much smaller player.”
> 
> Games Workshop manufactures Warhammer 40,000, a tabletop battle game that works with armies of miniature figures and vehicles, while Chapterhouse sells customized add-on parts for the figures and vehicles used in the game. The United Kingdom-based Games Workshop, a company with $200 million per year in revenues, alleged more than 200 claims of copyright and trademark infringement against Chapterhouse, a small business run out of an individual’s garage in Texas. Games Workshop argued that it was seeking a complete shutdown of Chapterhouse’s entire business and although Games Workshop initially sought over $400,000 in damages, by the end of the two-week jury trial, the plaintiff dropped its damages demand to only $25,000.
> 
> The jury deliberated for more than two days and found that Chapterhouse could continue to make and sell over a hundred products without fear of copyright infringement. The jury also confirmed that Chapterhouse could continue to use most of Games Workshop’s asserted trademarks when selling compatible parts, including all nine of Games Workshop’s registered trademarks. Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked.
> 
> Imron Aly, lead trial attorney and partner in Winston & Strawn’s Chicago office added, “It was a pleasure to represent a small entrepreneur like Nicholas Villacci of Chapterhouse, who has a passion for his work and wanted to see his business survive.”
> 
> Julianne Hartzell, partner at co-counsel law firm Marshall Gerstein added, “We are proud that we were able to help protect Chapterhouse against the overreaching claims made by Games Workshop in such a substantial trademark and copyright dispute.”


I'd like to note that this claims GW dropped it's demands for damages to $25k, not that the Jury had awarded GW that much in damages. Selective truth perhaps, or a detail we didn't know before?


----------



## Djinn24

Any word on which copyrights and trademarks went to GW and which went to CHS.


----------



## ntaw

Zion said:


> Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products





Zion said:


> and can continue to use 104 words and phrases


mmmm that list. The real curiosity.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Any word on which copyrights and trademarks went to GW and which went to CHS.


Not as far as I know. I haven't seen anymore documents posted nor have I seen any word on the specifics.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

khrone forever said:


> Well...the plural of moose is moosen, just like ox goes to oxen


It is an American Indian (Algonquian) word ... and the plural of it is the same as the singular version.

OT:Am I understanding it correct that the jury has rendered their verdict but the judge can change their findings? 

For example, in theory, the jury awarded GW $25,000, can the judge now come in and say ' That is outrageous, GW is awarded nothing in compensation.' 
Or give them protection on the shoulder pads even though our copyright office says it is not eligible for a CW or TM?


----------



## Djinn24

As far as I understand it yes Jeep.


----------



## maddermax

OIIIIIIO said:


> It is an American Indian (Algonquian) word ... and the plural of it is the same as the singular version.
> 
> OT:Am I understanding it correct that the jury has rendered their verdict but the judge can change their findings?
> 
> For example, in theory, the jury awarded GW $25,000, can the judge now come in and say ' That is outrageous, GW is awarded nothing in compensation.'
> Or give them protection on the shoulder pads even though our copyright office says it is not eligible for a CW or TM?


Not exactly. He can rule on points of law (that is where one side or the other is correct under the law), but he can't outright change the jury verdicts. He'll also be deciding on certain things (like who pays for the trial), and he'll be explaining the verdicts and what it means for case law. I am unsure of his ability to change damages awarded however.

For the question of who pays, I doubt CHS will be liable for legal fees, as GWs claim up until the trial ($400,000 or the entire GROSS revenue of the company) was outrageous, and the verdict was split in CHS favor. Not to mention, of course, that GWs counsel was apparently sanctioned for lying and withholding evidence during discovery, which the judge might hold against them. We'll see however.


----------



## vetsgtnamaan

Good to know i can buy more shoulder pads and jet bikes  Happy day


----------



## falcoso

I still fidn this odd because surely if you have a copyright or trademark, you have to give other people permission to use them which GW haven't done, so why can CHS still use all the copyrighted and trademarked terms and products


----------



## Me-dea

Falcoso not all, GW did win on a few of them and CH must remove few models from theirs range.

We are all now waiting for a full list of what wined who.


----------



## maddermax

Me-dea said:


> Falcoso not all, GW did win on a few of them and CH must remove few models from theirs range.
> 
> We are all now waiting for a full list of what wined who.


Chapterhouse has updated their site to an extent (there might be some changes to come), and removed the Dark Elf Tourturess and Doomseer (both of which we already knew about) along with the Tru-scale marines and Gargoyle wings (which we didn't know about). All the rest is still there. There's also these changes that Czakk on Dakka Dakka noticed:






czakk 533787 5748501 null said:


> Nobody knows yet. No final judgment.
> 
> 
> However, CHS has recently changed their website in that sort of direction. They aren't stepping back at all:
> *Old Version*
> 
> 
> 
> ChapterHouse Studios specializes in the creation of high end resin and metal miniature kits and parts applicable for use in a wide variety of Fantasy and Sci-fi Roleplaying and Wargaming. Our mission is to help address public demand for unavailable parts and iconography with the highest standards possible. As our company grows, so to does our ambition, and in the upcoming months we will be introducing some truly fantastic conversion kits and brand new miniatures! We can’t wait to share our new work with you, so stay tuned!
> 
> 
> 
> *Current*
> 
> 
> 
> ChapterHouse Studios specializes in the creation of high end resin and metal miniature kits and buts applicable for use with a variety of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k models and the games. Our mission is to help address public demand for unavailable parts and iconography with the highest standards possible. The general idea of our company is that every player should be able to add his own style and flavor to the models and armies they own and we aim to help do that.
> 
> 
> 
> SITE UPDATE - The Different styles of Heresy Era Shoulder Pads that are compatible with Games Workshop Terminator models are now back up for sale here!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heresy-Era Shoulder Pads for Terminators Type A - 2 pads
> 
> 
> This is a set of 2 pewter shoulder pads designed to fit on Games Workshops Space Marine® Terminator figures. Each pad is designed in a style that will fit in with Heresy Era collections and the bad itself has draping armored segments flowing down and 3 distinct armored sections on the upper armor.
> 
> This component comes unpainted and is designed to fit on Games Workshop Space Marine® Terminator figures (figure shown for scale and one example of use only).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> This is why you see folks talking about something that on the face of it looks like a win (25k damages, prevailing on some claims) actually ending up being a big loss.
Click to expand...


So after this, while they lost the some of their products, they're not stepping back but stepping it up.


----------



## bitsandkits

lol @ the silly shoulder pads, his heresy era stuff is just laughable, FW are the first and last word now when it comes to HH period stuff.


----------



## jams

Dear lord those shoulder pads look ridiculous...


----------



## Firewolf

>> Just looking at CH's "Star fox" shoulder pads. What GW chapter are they meant to be for? Please dont say Space Wolves. My cat looks more wolfie than those. 

>> Sorry, just looked closer, Luna Wolves supposedly. My above statement satnds.


----------



## ntaw

I wonder if this indicates the terms still owned by GW. Their new (?) bottom of site disclaimer:



> This web site is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited.
> Adeptus Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, Black Flame, Black Library, the Black Library logo, BL Publishing, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Blood Bowl, the Blood Bowl logo, The Blood Bowl Spike Device, Cadian, Catachan, the Chaos device, Cityfight, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, City of the Damned, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Future, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Epic, Eye of Terror, Fanatic, the Fanatic logo, the Fanatic II logo, Fire Warrior, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Inferno, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, Kroot, Lord of Change, Marauder, Mordheim, the Mordheim logo, Necromunda, Necromunda stencil logo, Necromunda Plate logo, Necron, Nurgle, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Talisman, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tomb Kings, Trio of Warriors, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer Historical, Warhammer Online, Warhammer 40k Device, Warhammer World logo, Warmaster, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations, units, illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2010, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. Used without permission. No challenge to their status intended. All Rights Reserved to their respective owners.


----------



## Svartmetall

Those 'shoulderpads' are just _appalling_.


----------



## Zion

Svartmetall said:


> Those 'shoulderpads' are just _appalling_.


Agreed, they look like something stolen from early 90's American comic books.

The scale is off with a normal sized model (maybe they're better on a True-Sized terminator models?), and frankly they don't really "go" with the model they're shown on.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Zion said:


> Agreed, they look like something stolen from early 90's American comic books.
> 
> The scale is off with a normal sized model (maybe they're better on a True-Sized terminator models?), and frankly they don't really "go" with the model they're shown on.


Rob Liefeld comes to mind.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shouldn't all the case files be out by now?


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Shouldn't all the case files be out by now?


I'm guessing no, because the Final Judgement hasn't come out so the case isn't officially "closed".


----------



## Zion

From CHS over on Dakka:



Chapterhouse said:


> Hey Ya'll
> 
> First I want to say thank you for keeping up with the last 30 months. Ive personally read all your post and while I didnt say anything I did appreciate the well wishers.
> 
> Of note I want to say I did everything I could to reach a settlement with GW that was fair. I knew what the outcome regarding trademarks was going to be (its case law) but they did not see things that way and refused to move from their interpretation of the law.
> 
> Secondly, regarding the 25K. It is not an insignificant amount. 2 years ago the company would have been in better shape to handle that cost, but the last 30 months has drained CHS financially and pretty much distracted us from growth. To remedy this I will be releasing a number of products and attempting my first foray into a kickstarter. This will be the defense line terrain pieces and I hope this will help recoup the cost of the last 2.5 years as well as get us back into the competition to release exciting products.
> 
> I was fortunate to have such great attorneys and friends (those two are not mutually exclusive now) and without them the market place would still be stifled (not to mention I wouldn't have a company anymore). I can not say how amazing it was that I took part in a huge federal lawsuit, and experience unto itself, but when I was in the courtroom across from GWs 2 attorneys and 1 inhouse councel (Gill Stevenson) I had a team of at least 6 attorneys and 4 support staff around me the whole time. I made great friends and learned so much.
> 
> Saying that... well just thank you for all your support.
> 
> Nick Villacci
> Chapterhouse Studios LLC


So that $25k will hurt him, but may not kill the company. Interesting to know.

Still no documents or final judgement at this time though. I'm quite interested to see what Nick said under oath and in his depositions (as I haven't seen his yet).


----------



## scscofield

If the ADL he does is even halfway decent he will most likely recoup his costs without issue.


----------



## maddermax

scscofield said:


> If the ADL he does is even halfway decent he will most likely recoup his costs without issue.


Here's the Chapterhouse post on their defense line, but it's in a movie, and the new Tau battlesuit arms. The defensive line lookes like it's meant for Necrons I think.






Chapterhouse 534629 5754397 81713a45da30b6887f93b3d830576a88.jpg said:


> Chapterhouse Studios can now get back to developing new components and now terrain pieces.
> 
> First off I want to show what we are going to release with help from a Kickstarter, "DarkTech" defensive terrain.. it is a movie file teaser.
> http://www.chapterhousestudios.com/Movie.wmv
> 
> I hope to retail these for $45 a set, and that will include 4 short and 4 long defensive barriers as well as 2 weapon emplacement types.
> 
> Also to be added to the website in a couple of days (I need to catch up and ship out orders that came in while I was in trial) are some rail gun arms that are compatible with Games Workshops Tau Battlesuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shooting for a $14 price range on these, they include two type of barrels as well as a plasma gun and missile launcher.
> 
> Chapterhouse Studios LLC


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Interesting to say the least.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

What are the odds on GW appealing the decision? 

If it really has gone that badly for them surely GW wouldn't take it lying down and will be lodging an appeal, I know CH are putting their own spin on this and its probably not as one side as they would have us believe.


----------



## ntaw

I can only imagine an appeal would hurt CH financially. Maybe not moreso, but in addition to the initial ruling. Hopefully it isn't too brutal on them, for all the off looking pieces they make the ones that look cool look really cool. Their foray into Defense Lines has my interest piqued, there was a post a little while ago that had decent ones I can only imagine CH will do a better job. Plus, they sell good looking combi weapons.


----------



## Zion

ntaw said:


> I can only imagine an appeal would hurt CH financially. Maybe not moreso, but in addition to the initial ruling. Hopefully it isn't too brutal on them, for all the off looking pieces they make the ones that look cool look really cool. Their foray into Defense Lines has my interest piqued, there was a post a little while ago that had decent ones I can only imagine CH will do a better job. Plus, they sell good looking combi weapons.


From what CHS posted on TGN:



Chapterhouse said:


> chapterhouse wrote:
> June 19, 2013 at 2:38 am
> 
> There will be an appeal, I am not sure what the outcome will be though I believe there are many points that favor an appeal by CHS. 25K will be rough, Ill admit that, but I am now able to concentrate on new products and components instead of the constant trial looming on the horizon. I have 2.5 years worth of effort to catch-up on. It would have been great if the other 3rd party companies out there would have helped, but thats not how business works. Regardless I am satisfied with the stance CHS took and am satisfied with most of the rulings. Time to get back to the project table now..
> Log in to Reply


...they want to appeal some of the points and strip things back further.


----------



## Zion

Docket information! I put a couple things in bold for emphasis:



> This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Wednesday, June 19, 2013:
> *proceedings will be required regarding plaintiff's request for an injunction. *(mk)MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Nunc pro tunc 6/17/2013: Jury deliberations concluded. Verdict returned in open court. *A judgment will not be entered at this time pending further discussions regarding the form of the judgment given the complexity of the verdict form.* The deadline for filing motions pursuant to Rules 50 and 59 relating to the jury's verdict is 7/15/2013. A status hearing is set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 a.m. to address that point as well as what further


 


> This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Wednesday, June 19, 2013:
> MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Status hearing set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 AM. (mk)


So GW requested an injunction on CHS. I wonder what it is specifically for.

Also we have an answer on the Final Judgement. It's going to be a bit before we find out what exactly it'll say.

Add in the CHS comment that they are appealing some of the judgements (likely the ones they lost) and this doesn't look nearly as over as we thought it would be last week.


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

> I hope to retail these for $45 a set, and that will include 4 short and 4 long defensive barriers as well as 2 weapon emplacement types.


That seem's a lot of money to me, GW sell theres for £18 I think, not sure what that is like in US $$$ but would not have thought that much, correct me if I am wrong (which knowing me I probably am :laugh: )



> There will be an appeal, I am not sure what the outcome will be though I believe there are many points that favor an appeal by CHS


Ok so if I am getting this right CHS are the ones who are going to raise the appeal?
If that is the case maybe things didn't go as well as they had hoped and are letting on in there press release.

This is one time when I dislike GW not putting out press releases, as I know this is something they have never been good at.
I know sometimes it is best to not say anything and just ride out the storm, but with how long this has been going on for, then I would have expected something from them (or hoped anyway)

Also a question for anyone from the US who know this, if CHS raise an Appeal could some of the rulings made in there favour be revoked and it work better in GW favour? if that is the case are they pre-empting a little by anouncing all the new things that they want to do, as it could go against them in another court session?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

It was always unlikely to be over at the first hearing, this will get dragged out by both sides until one of them runs out of money.


----------



## ntaw

stephen.w.langdon said:


> That seem's a lot of money to me, GW sell theres for £18 I think, not sure what that is like in US $$$ but would not have thought that much, correct me if I am wrong


In Canada GW sells the ADL for 35.75, and it only comes with a QG. At ~$45 for the same thing but army specific and including an ILC I'd say it's pretty on par for pricing. Going on eBay seems to be less cost effective for the ILC individually, plus it's pretty specifically Imperial.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> It was always unlikely to be over at the first hearing, this will get dragged out by both sides until one of them runs out of money.


GW has the deeper pockets...


----------



## ntaw

Zion said:


> GW has the deeper pockets...


Does that come down to just the way their pants are made?

Seriously though, at some point CHS will just have to stop...unless they are _really_ coming out on top.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

ntaw said:


> Does that come down to just the way their pants are made? Yes it does.
> 
> Seriously though, at some point CHS will just have to stop...unless they are _really_ coming out on top.


If that's the case then it will probably be GW.


----------



## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> If that's the case then it will probably be GW.


GW doesn't currently seem to have an appeal on the table. They have 30 days to put one in though.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Zion said:


> GW doesn't currently seem to have an appeal on the table. They have 30 days to put one in though.


True, I guess. I'm wondering what this will look like once all the dust has settled.


----------



## ntaw

Jace of Ultramar said:


> True, I guess. I'm wondering what this will look like once all the dust has settled.


Probably in need of dusting.


----------



## maddermax

Zion said:


> Docket information! I put a couple things in bold for emphasis:
> 
> So GW requested an injunction on CHS. I wonder what it is specifically for.
> 
> Also we have an answer on the Final Judgement. It's going to be a bit before we find out what exactly it'll say.
> 
> Add in the CHS comment that they are appealing some of the judgements (likely the ones they lost) and this doesn't look nearly as over as we thought it would be last week.


It could be that it's to do with stopping CHS selling any of the items that were found to be infringing while an appeal is heard. Even though CHS has already taken down the infringing items (doomseer, tourturess, ect), it might be technically possible to sell them if an appeal was lodged because the matter wouldn't be settled. I doubt CHS would sell them any more anyway (as it would only open them up to more liability if they lost the items again on appeal), so it's probably just a technicality more than anything. 

That's just an idle thought on the matter however, I really have no clue.



stephen.w.langdon said:


> Also a question for anyone from the US who know this, if CHS raise an Appeal could some of the rulings made in there favour be revoked and it work better in GW favour? if that is the case are they pre-empting a little by anouncing all the new things that they want to do, as it could go against them in another court session?


The things they're starting work on (the arms compatible with tau and the defense line) have very very little chance of being found infringing, they're not pushing the boundaries with them.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

It would shock me if GW did not appeal some of it. CH SHOULD appeal on the 1/3 that they lost ... they are getting pro-bono legal. I understand that because it is pro-bono that the current law-firm may not wish to continue but they more than likely will for one simple reason ..... TAX WRITE OFF.

I am not real keen on CH stuff but I think that they should be able to continue making things. I understand that they may not have some of the prettiest bits, but they did make some bits that GW does not or will not.


----------



## maddermax

OIIIIIIO said:


> It would shock me if GW did not appeal some of it. CH SHOULD appeal on the 1/3 that they lost ... they are getting pro-bono legal. I understand that because it is pro-bono that the current law-firm may not wish to continue but they more than likely will for one simple reason ..... TAX WRITE OFF.


Well, I doubt CHS would be mentioning anything about appeals if Winston and Strawn weren't on board already. 

I also understand that Pro Bono work is not tax deductible, except for expenses directly incurred - that is if you spend x amount on expenses for the case (travel, materials, postage ect.) that is tax deductible, but the actual work is not, and that is where the majority of costs come in. In general, I think lawyers are recommended by the Bar association to do a certain amount of Pro Bono hours a year for all lawyers anyway, and in a case as novel/important as this that will affect case law, many lawyers would jump at the chance.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

maddermax said:


> Well, I doubt CHS would be mentioning anything about appeals if Winston and Strawn weren't on board already.
> 
> I also understand that Pro Bono work is not tax deductible, except for expenses directly incurred - that is if you spend x amount on expenses for the case (travel, materials, postage ect.) that is tax deductible, but the actual work is not, and that is where the majority of costs come in. In general, I think lawyers are recommended by the Bar association to do a certain amount of Pro Bono hours a year for all lawyers anyway, and in a case as novel/important as this that will affect case law, many lawyers would jump at the chance.


 No arguements there.
I don't know about Pro Bono hours, but, the chance to Rep in a case that can have an impact on certain laws for manufacture of after market parts is something that most any lawyer would probably jump at in order to make a name for themselves after its all said and done.


----------



## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> No arguements there.
> I don't know about Pro Bono hours, but, the chance to Rep in a case that can have an impact on certain laws for manufacture of after market parts is something that most any lawyer would probably jump at in order to make a name for themselves after its all said and done.


From what I understand the firm that defended CHS was already well known, but then again this could be a way to further their name. Afterall, if your team of lawyers (that out numbered GW's team by 2:1 not counting the numerous ones who were dismissed from the case by the firm) could beat a "big mean corporation" then it just looks good for you.

Only reason I highlight the 2:1 part is that by having more people on the case they can dig through more stuff, faster. It stacks the cards for them to get things through first because they have more people working on the problem at any one time. At least that's how I see it.


----------



## maddermax

Zion said:


> From what I understand the firm that defended CHS was already well known, but then again this could be a way to further their name. Afterall, if your team of lawyers (that out numbered GW's team by 2:1 not counting the numerous ones who were dismissed from the case by the firm) could beat a "big mean corporation" then it just looks good for you.
> 
> Only reason I highlight the 2:1 part is that by having more people on the case they can dig through more stuff, faster. It stacks the cards for them to get things through first because they have more people working on the problem at any one time. At least that's how I see it.


Winston and Strawn are actually already one of the premiere ip firms out there, their clients list is a veritible who's who of buisness (Motorola, Dell, Boeing, McDonalds, Microsoft... And a huge number of others). The case was probably about keeping on the cutting edge of IP law, and getting experience/recognition for the lawyers who worked on it, more than beating a big corporation.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

maddermax said:


> Winston and Strawn are actually already one of the premiere ip firms out there, their clients list is a veritible who's who of buisness (Motorola, Dell, Boeing, McDonalds, Microsoft... And a huge number of others). The case was probably about keeping on the cutting edge of IP law, and getting experience/recognition for the lawyers who worked on it, more than beating a big corporation.


 Probably, also, very true.

I hear each lawyer who worked on the case is getting a thank you gift of an armoured Guinea Pig.:shok:


----------



## Djinn24

Guinea Pig of Justice!


----------



## Magpie_Oz

maddermax said:


> The case was probably about keeping on the cutting edge of IP law, and getting experience/recognition for the lawyers who worked on it, more than beating a big corporation.


I certainly agree with that, the press release of their "victory" was VERY quick off the mark.


----------



## Rems

Anyone else get a sour taste in their mouth over the idea of an I.P thief (CHS) launching a kickstarter to make more money off the back of other people's work?


----------



## scscofield

How is it different than any other after market part designed to work with OEM parts?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Rems said:


> Anyone else get a sour taste in their mouth over the idea of an I.P thief (CHS) launching a kickstarter to make more money off the back of other people's work?


I hear where you're coming form mate but TBH I don't see it as too much of a problem.
I looked on the CHS website last night and I see it is packed to the gunnals with acknowledgements to GW. Certainly much more than ever before.

There is even a line that say "We recommend GW arms and guns for these models" or words to that effect for their Female IG models.

So long as credit is being given where it is due all well and good.


----------



## Djinn24

The problem is per the jury they were not ip theirs on a majority of items and they broke speed records on removing the offending items and recieved a fine for the loss of profit. 

Zion can answer this better but I am pretty sure GW got in trouble for lying at the trial and made false claims of trademark eg shoulder pads.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

djinn24 said:


> Zion can answer this better but I am pretty sure GW got in trouble for lying at the trial and made false claims of trademark eg shoulder pads.


Did they get in trouble or was it their counsel ?


----------



## maddermax

djinn24 said:


> The problem is per the jury they were not ip theirs on a majority of items and they broke speed records on removing the offending items and recieved a fine for the loss of profit.
> 
> Zion can answer this better but I am pretty sure GW got in trouble for lying at the trial and made false claims of trademark eg shoulder pads.


Not exactly, they failed to tell CHS' lawyers that they had tried to have the shoulderpads registered during the lawsuit and failed due to the pads being too generic, while trying to convince the judge that they were worthy of copyright. That's an extremely relevant fact that should have been brought up during discovery. The Judge ruled them copyrightable, at which point Mr. Moskin ran straight to the copyright office saying they'd been ruled as copyright in federal court, and trying to appeal the earlier decision (this was all while the suit was already underway, mind you). CHS had to find out this from the copyright office itself, and GW's lawyer, Mr. Moskin, tried to say that he forgot about it... even though he had been emailing the copyright office on the matter just a few days before talking to CHS lawyers about this very sort of thing. He got sanctioned for it.

There were a few other matters of...poor judgement by Mr. Moskin and GW. Failing to mention they didn't actually have rights to certain artwork they were trying to use in the suit, and trying to get artists to sign over those documents during the suit.

It's not the first time he'd done such things in discovery either, and he'd been sanctioned for such behavior before.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Which surely makes it even more likely that GW will appeal the decision, I would if I found out my lawyer was that much of a tool!


----------



## Djinn24

Saying I forgot sounds like a lie to me.


----------



## maddermax

normtheunsavoury said:


> Which surely makes it even more likely that GW will appeal the decision, I would if I found out my lawyer was that much of a tool!


I don't think incompetent representation is a legal justification for appeal in civil suits. Might be wrong on that matter, but since the judge ruled very leniently on the matter, and Mr. Moskin wasn't grossly incompetent (just sleezy), it probably won't be grounds for appeal.


----------



## Djinn24

It's also typically only used for the defense.


----------



## bitsandkits

I dont think the production of after market parts was really the problem, many other indies do that already and are accepted as part of the hobby, it was several things, the blatant use of GW terminology trademarked or not, the arrogance and integrity of the owner towards his potential customer base and the general poor quality of the sculpts.

But you could argue those are also the things that have made him fairly successfully or at the very least got the company name out there,i mean i dont like the guy or his product but i have to tip my hat to him, he has literally put everything into defending the position he believed to be true and was willing to go into court and defend what he believed to be correct,granted im not sure the situation would have been the same had he had to pay for his own defence, plus the flip side of his victory is going to be every future product he ever produces is going to be scrutinised by GW legal and if he so much as thinks about stepping over the line again hes gonna be back infront of a judge faster than a male bbc tv personality from the 70s. 

On the shoulder pad thing, i could see GW redesigning them and looking towards patenting them if possible, after all if they are too generic then they just need to make them not generic to get the patent? then change the core plastic kits to the new pads, the space marines are the best selling range anyway and the vanilla stuff is looking very tired and old hat anyway so the investment wouldnt be wasted as its something they need to do anyway.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> he has literally put everything into defending the position he believed to be true and was willing to go into court and defend what he believed to be correct,


What exactly has he "put in" ? 
No money that's for certain, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.



bitsandkits said:


> On the shoulder pad thing, i could see GW redesigning them and looking towards patenting them if possible, after all if they are too generic then they just need to make them not generic to get the patent? then change the core plastic kits to the new pads, the space marines are the best selling range anyway and the vanilla stuff is looking very tired and old hat anyway so the investment wouldnt be wasted as its something they need to do anyway.


I think with the shoulder pads that if they made such that the items had to fit into a socket or something you would get away from the generic. As it is at the moment the pauldron could go on any model from that has shoulders. If you make it so that it can only go on a Space marine that would mean it is no longer generic.

Of course we lose out there because now we can't swap pauldrons around !

I do agree tho' that the SM's might be due for a modernise..... perhaps that is already in the pipeline ?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

maddermax said:


> I don't think incompetent representation is a legal justification for appeal in civil suits. Might be wrong on that matter, but since the judge ruled very leniently on the matter, and Mr. Moskin wasn't grossly incompetent (just sleezy), it probably won't be grounds for appeal.


I didn't mean that they would appeal on the basis of their lawyer being a dick, even I'm not that slow or naive! 

What I meant was they could probably find plenty of holes in the ruling against them and with the right legal representation they could get a better result. If I had a lawyer that was as hopeless as GW's appears to have been I would have dropped him in a flash.


----------



## bitsandkits

Magpie_Oz said:


> What exactly has he "put in" ?
> No money that's for certain, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.


Well he had his company and his livelyhood to loose if he lost because the legal stance he believed turned out as wrong, im not defending him or his actions all im saying is he stood buy what he believed to be correct despite the threat of legal proceedings, which not many would do in his situation.Im as amazed as the next guy that he ever made a sale, im sometimes left scratching my head at what some people will actually buy for this hobby and how some then complain about some of the things GW produce??? complete double standards, its like "_aww bless him ,hes a dude in his shed lets buy his crap stuff so he doesnt feel bad and tell everyone online how hes the saviour of the hobby and im going to have his babies_ " then on the other hand its " _FUCK YOU GW!!! WE HAVE WAITED A YEAR FOR A PLASTIC KIT FOR THIS CODEX ENTRY AND THIS MODEL YOU WANT ME TO BUY ISNT EXACTLY HOW I EXPECTED IT TO LOOK, SO IM RAGE QUITTING 40K RAAAAGH!_"


----------



## normtheunsavoury

bitsandkits said:


> " FUCK YOU GW!!! WE HAVE WAITED A YEAR FOR A PLASTIC KIT FOR THIS CODEX ENTRY AND THIS MODEL YOU WANT ME TO BUY ISNT EXACTLY HOW I EXPECTED IT TO LOOK, SO IM RAGE QUITTING 40K RAAAAGH!"


I fail to see the issue here, how is this wrong?:laugh:


----------



## maddermax

Magpie_Oz said:


> What exactly has he "put in" ?
> No money that's for certain, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.


GW was suing him for $400,000, the entire gross that his business had ever taken, far more than he had actually taken himself. If he didn't have a limited liability, everything he had put into the business, all the equipment he had ever bought for it, plus potentially personal assets would have been liable. That's not nothing.


----------



## Zion

bitsandkits said:


> Well he had his company and his livelyhood to loose if he lost because the legal stance he believed turned out as wrong, im not defending him or his actions all im saying is he stood buy what he believed to be correct despite the threat of legal proceedings, which not many would do in his situation.Im as amazed as the next guy that he ever made a sale, im sometimes left scratching my head at what some people will actually buy for this hobby and how some then complain about some of the things GW produce??? complete double standards, its like "_aww bless him ,hes a dude in his shed lets buy his crap stuff so he doesnt feel bad and tell everyone online how hes the saviour of the hobby and im going to have his babies_ " then on the other hand its " _FUCK YOU GW!!! WE HAVE WAITED A YEAR FOR A PLASTIC KIT FOR THIS CODEX ENTRY AND THIS MODEL YOU WANT ME TO BUY ISNT EXACTLY HOW I EXPECTED IT TO LOOK, SO IM RAGE QUITTING 40K RAAAAGH!_"


Apparently the dude in his shed gets a free pass because they expect him to be low quality (even if he's charging as much if not more than GW for the same things) but GW doesn't because they're a big company. Consisting of people. People who have aesthetic visions that may clash with our own.

But you know, that's a perfectly reasonable response, I mean to rage-quit a hobby over design differences? _Totally_ reasonable.

The thing that was driving me up the wall is that people were taking CHS' side not based on facts, but based on personal feelings about model design, perceived slights by the company, ect. Sure as the case went on they found their viewpoints strengthened as GW was not 100% right in what they were pushing for, but I still can't stand the fact that people chose to side against GW just because it's GW.

GW's next move is hard to guess since we don't have any word from them. I could understand an appeal (especially on the Shoulder Pads since they've been dying to get those protected), but they may decide to back off on this and keep an eye on CHS while they hit other infringers with a tighter shotgun blast.

Then again that might be waiting for this case to be 100% done so they know where they stand in moving forward.


----------



## maddermax

Zion said:


> Apparently the dude in his shed gets a free pass because they expect him to be low quality (even if he's charging as much if not more than GW for the same things) but GW doesn't because they're a big company. Consisting of people. People who have aesthetic visions that may clash with our own.
> 
> But you know, that's a perfectly reasonable response, I mean to rage-quit a hobby over design differences? Totally reasonable.
> 
> The thing that was driving me up the wall is that people were taking CHS' side not based on facts, but based on personal feelings about model design, perceived slights by the company, ect. Sure as the case went on they found their viewpoints strengthened as GW was not 100% right in what they were pushing for, but I still can't stand the fact that people chose to side against GW just because it's GW.


I think saying people only sided against GW because they're raging is as incorrect as saying people only sided with GW because they're white-knighting fanboys. There are people capable of reasonable thoughts on the matter who think GW did some stupid things in relation to this trial, and it's IP policy in general.

I mean, the spots the space marine thing, the general combative attitude it has with many fans and fan sites, trying to claim even very generic terms as it's own and so on. GW is a 900 pound gorrilla raging around, chapterhouse is a fly that might have annoyed it. I don't hate gorillas, and I don't much care about the fly, but the gorilla still needs to be put back in it's cage for the safety of everyone else. GW over reached seriously, and if it worked, it would have been a travesty for future use of generic sci-fi or fantasy tropes in model making, and that wouldn't have been good for anyone, not to mention gutting ideas of fair use of terms and opening up the gateway for many many other lawsuits and intimidation. 

But I don't hate GW. They have a rich world, with a rich fluff and background, they make good models for the most part, and while I'm not playing any of their games at the moment (well, Warhammer Quest on the Iphone), I do have fond memories of them. Plus, Chapterhouse did do a few things which were pretty brazenly taking on GW, such as the Doomseer. But for all those things it doesn't mean that GW should get it's way on everything, that's not how the world works. I also don't think I'm alone in thinking this way, so characterizing most of the support of CHS in the suit as GW raging is, I think, a little much.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Does this case have any baring at all on what models can be used in GW stores?


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> I think saying people only sided against GW because they're raging is as incorrect as saying people only sided with GW because they're white-knighting fanboys. There are people capable of reasonable thoughts on the matter who think GW did some stupid things in relation to this trial, and it's IP policy in general.


I'm not claiming that everyone did this, but I've been following this since the first shoe dropped and I saw people who specifically stated that they hoped CHS won because they were mad at GW. 



maddermax said:


> I mean, the spots the space marine thing, the general combative attitude it has with many fans and fan sites, trying to claim even very generic terms as it's own and so on.


In GW's defense they -do- have trademarks for Space Marine. In books, minatures/toys (Space Marine toys from the Aliens movie toy line actually acknowledge this _on the package_) and a number of other things, but not in ebooks...in the US. GW was using common law interpretations due to their push into ebooks to secure that, but that only works in the UK. This is the joys of international IP conflicts honestly.

And no, we don't need another debate if they "should" be able to trademark the term because they did. In the 80s. We just have to live with that as is now.



maddermax said:


> GW is a 900 pound gorrilla raging around, chapterhouse is a fly that might have annoyed it. I don't hate gorillas, and I don't much care about the fly, but the gorilla still needs to be put back in it's cage for the safety of everyone else. GW over reached seriously, and if it worked, it would have been a travesty for future use of generic sci-fi or fantasy tropes in model making, and that wouldn't have been good for anyone, not to mention gutting ideas of fair use of terms and opening up the gateway for many many other lawsuits and intimidation.


I'm going to disagree here. People overlook a lot of requirements of IP law to maintain the trademark or copyright that you own. If you don't actively defend it you lose it. Period. GW isn't wildly running around swinging blind, they are doing what they are *legally required to do*. They had even offered to settle with CHS (according to CHS anyways, GW was willing to settle), but CHS turned them down every step of the way. So GW was forced into a position that backing down would automatically cause them to weaken all their claims (as they'd automatically lose) so they went all ten rounds with CHS because they didn't have any other choice. 

Now was every claim GW had correct? No, not really, but they were far from just acting as bullies like is claimed too. They were doing what they were legally required to do to protect their IP. If I was in their shoes I'd done something pretty close to the same (though prepping the company and getting my ducks in a row BEFORE I went for a suit would have been my difference from them).

GW winning it wouldn't have been any different than the way things were 3 years ago with GW, save for GW having better ammo to deal with infringements. 

I never had anything against most 3rd party companies. Scribor, Maxmini...those guys do fine by me. They fill holes that GW legitimately never touches. But CHS was filling holes that already existed (Iron Hands shoulderpads? Seriously? There was a kit that already came with those! Not to mention shoulder pads with arrows and the like which are ALSO things GW already produces.). There is a line between "conversion pieces" and "taking GW's cookies", and CHS was legitimately trying to take GW's cookies a lot of the time.

Hell it came up in the trial that CHS' Tervigon kit delayed the GW one as they had to go back and adjust their original design so it'd stand out more. That's not "filling holes GW will never fill", that's "stuff that GW is going to produce that we can cash in for a quick buck now before they get there".



maddermax said:


> But I don't hate GW. They have a rich world, with a rich fluff and background, they make good models for the most part, and while I'm not playing any of their games at the moment (well, Warhammer Quest on the Iphone), I do have fond memories of them. Plus, Chapterhouse did do a few things which were pretty brazenly taking on GW, such as the Doomseer. But for all those things it doesn't mean that GW should get it's way on everything, that's not how the world works. I also don't think I'm alone in thinking this way, so characterizing most of the support of CHS in the suit as GW raging is, I think, a little much.


You assumed by "people" I meant everyone, which was a little much. People was a generic term to mean a group of "people" (namely a number of folks on Dakka). I didn't mean every single person to side with CHS did so out of spite, just a significant number of them.

EDIT:


Words_of_Truth said:


> Does this case have any baring at all on what models can be used in GW stores?


Not a chance in hell. GW will always only permit you to use only their models in GW stores. 

Best comparison is the idea of taking Burger King into a McDonalds because you want to eat it there instead. You want non-GW models? Better look at playing somewhere else.


----------



## Djinn24

Actually Games Workshop owns the ebook trademark on Space Marine in the UK, they do not own the trademark for printed or ebook in the US. 

That entire deal with Spots the Space Marine was more Amazon's fault then GW. GW requested the book be pulled from the UK Amazon site. Amazon pulled it from all of its servers.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Actually Games Workshop owns the ebook trademark on Space Marine in the UK, they do not own the trademark for printed or ebook in the US.
> 
> That entire deal with Spots the Space Marine was more Amazon's fault then GW. GW requested the book be pulled from the UK Amazon site. Amazon pulled it from all of its servers.


Fair enough. That actually makes GW _less_ of the bad guy honestly. 

The point remains: GW isn't a blind gorilla swinging haphazardly about, but a company doing what they honestly _have_ to do. Painting them as some kind of supervillain is hardly appropriate.


----------



## Djinn24

I agree, I am a GW fan boy but I was rooting on some of these being found in CHS favor, not for them, but for all the 3rd party folks. Maybe this will get GW off their asses to finish some kits, icons, etc that they have been missing for almost 2 decades.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Hell it came up in the trial that CHS' Tervigon kit delayed the GW one as they had to go back and adjust their original design so it'd stand out more. That's not "filling holes GW will never fill", that's "stuff that GW is going to produce that we can cash in for a quick buck now before they get there".


I kind of see that as GW's fault. I mean a model release certainly isn't cheap but when you put something in a book and get around to it "whenever" people are going to be a bit pissed. I know if I played SW I would have had an army of 3rx party Thunder Wolves by the time they actually released them. Not that making a quick buck on Tervigon really seems right either. It just seems that if that's a big deal, you better have models to go with your book, or expect that to happen.


----------



## scscofield

I find the whole tervigon argument to be bullshit. They did not release a model for something they created. They created a demand without supply. They have only themselves to blame for that supply being provided.


----------



## Zion

Karyudo-DS said:


> I kind of see that as GW's fault. I mean a model release certainly isn't cheap but when you put something in a book and get around to it "whenever" people are going to be a bit pissed. I know if I played SW I would have had an army of 3rx party Thunder Wolves by the time they actually released them. Not that making a quick buck on Tervigon really seems right either. It just seems that if that's a big deal, you better have models to go with your book, or expect that to happen.





scscofield said:


> I find the whole tervigon argument to be bullshit. They did not release a model for something they created. They created a demand without supply. They have only themselves to blame for that supply being provided.


I'm going to hit up both of these in one go because they talk about the same thing. Here goes:

The thing about the Tervigon kit is that while it was GW's fault that it wasn't in the initial release that wasn't exactly something new at the time. They often did split releases for things because ideas didn't have models that were ready to go, or due to wanting to stretch out the incoming income from an existing codex by splitting up the codex.

Now regardless of why they did it, or how it was wrong to do so, not selling a model did not give CHS the rights to come in and produce anything to act as that model, conversion kit or not. They were taking something that had existing, copywritten artwork and made it into a model.

As has been discussed to death, that's IP infringement. This has been proven in court when a photographer sued an artist for making a minature sculpture of one of his photographs without permission.

Regardless of the reason why GW did what they did does not automatically excuse CHS on the crap they were trying to pull. I don't care if you did need a Carnifex kit for it or not, they were still blatantly _stealing_ GW's established and protectable IP when they did it and it forced us to wait _longer_ for the real kit to come out because GW had to go back and adjust theirs. 

That is _not_ an acceptable practice in my book, and regardless of the claims I don't believe it's good for the hobby either.


----------



## scscofield

Nope still feel this is bullshit. GW created demand without supply.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> Nope still feel this is bullshit. GW created demand without supply.


Regardless of how bullshit you think it is, it doesn't make it legally or morally right.

GW has been creating demand without immediate supply for over two decades. Their finally knocking that off and what's the new complaint? Not enough new toys. Guess what kids, that's the price you pay when a company is forced to only release stuff they can actually provide models for.

The community did not "win" here. We're getting about the same amount of actual new model kits we were before, only with less new kits to look forward to later. 5 years from now the Tau (for example) will have the same things they have now unless we see GW start to use the WD as more than a new army showcase and put rules in it for new sets on a consistent basis.

Guess what I don't see GW doing. If you guessed utilize the WD to greater effect and potential you guessed right.


----------



## scscofield

I have no issues with their current releases. It is how they should have been doing it. The only reason I do not own aftermarket TWC is because I had dismissed the unit. If I had realized how good they were I would have bought up a pile of aftermarket wolves because GW was busy doing the whole create demand without supply. I also think it is very easy to blame someone your in court with over delays of release since it can't be proved one way or another.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> I have no issues with their current releases. It is how they should have been doing it. The only reason I do not own aftermarket TWC is because I had dismissed the unit. If I had realized how good they were I would have bought up a pile of aftermarket wolves because GW was busy doing the whole create demand without supply. I also think it is very easy to blame someone your in court with over delays of release since it can't be proved one way or another.


Even assuming GW didn't need to delay the release we still have CHS filling in on things they had no legal or moral right doing so. 

3rd part conversion bits to give my guys different guns, or differently designed shoulder pads or backpacks? I can accept that. 

I just can't accept any company who thinks it's "doing the right thing" by taking a codex unit and making models for it to capitalize on the company not getting their first.

That'd be like me selling a 2015 Dodge Ram because Dodge hasn't made it yet, but people wanting it. Not legally or morally right.

And that's been my issue with CHS from the start personally.


----------



## chapterhousestudios

scscofield said:


> I have no issues with their current releases. It is how they should have been doing it. The only reason I do not own aftermarket TWC is because I had dismissed the unit. If I had realized how good they were I would have bought up a pile of aftermarket wolves because GW was busy doing the whole create demand without supply. I also think it is very easy to blame someone your in court with over delays of release since it can't be proved one way or another.


I am not here to sway anyone in their opinions over right vs wrong etc. I do want to add factual evidence that is in the court case. CHS deposed Allen Merrit and his sworn testimony a year or so before the trial was this:

"CHS has had no impact on GW sales or product releases" I am paraphrasing but if you want to look through his earlier deposition it is there in writing.

Now Mr Merrit testified on the stand during the trial, that he "happened" to ask Jes Goodwin 2 weeks prior to the trial if CHS had caused any issue with GW releases. Mr. Goodwin "happened" to say that, "yes the tervigon kit from CHS delayed GWs tervigon kit."

The interesting thing is that Mr Merrit is the right hand to Mr Goodwin and they work together all the time. So my natural thought was how coincidental that there was no harm done to GWs release or sales, until 2 weeks prior to the trial. It just happened to be brought up with Mr. Goodwin 2 weeks prior with an affirmative answer. Even though Mr Merrit testified during his deposition that no affect had occured 2.5 years after CHS Tervigon kit was released and 1 year after GWs kit was released.

Of course Mr. Goodwin made a point of saying this on the stand under oath, along with Ms. Stenvenson claiming she had evidence of confusion and Mr. Meritt and Mr. Jones saying that GWs designers never looked at any sort of reference materials that werent GW books to come up with 40K ideas back in the day (even though John Blanche and Martin Footit and another old designer testified they did).

Seeing how the GW team was full of doublespeak and false bravado on the stand (you guys have only see the Cliffs noted version), I would recommend taking anything they say with a grain of salt, including the fact that CHS caused any delays in their releases. Dont forget that the Eldar Jetbkie Seer and Warlocks have been in the rules for almost 20 years now (2nd edition I think) and they still never released a kit for that model.

Ill head back to lurking (thanks to those who have supported the effort).

Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC


----------



## Djinn24

I would have more sympathy is I have not been waiting 20 years for 2 eldar models that are still not out. And may I point out, it does seem the law thinks its right, making it legal.


----------



## Zion

chapterhousestudios said:


> I am not here to sway anyone in their opinions over right vs wrong etc. I do want to add factual evidence that is in the court case. CHS deposed Allen Merrit and his sworn testimony a year or so before the trial was this:


If you weren't posting to sway opinions you wouldn't be posting this whole thing to prove our opinions/assumptions/ect wrong. Nice bit of doublespeak on your own part.



chapterhousestudios said:


> "CHS has had no impact on GW sales or product releases" I am paraphrasing but if you want to look through his earlier deposition it is there in writing.


Actually, I don't recall reading anything of the sort. Of course it's completely possible we didn't see this, but the fact of the matter is that proving lost sales is a tricky business. People start and stop buying GW products all the time for thousands of different reasons. I'm willing to be GW can't prove that they lost sales to your company, just like you can't disprove that you cost them sales. We'd have to poll everyone who ever bought something from you to do that, and we know neither side did that.



chapterhousestudios said:


> Now Mr Merrit testified on the stand during the trial, that he "happened" to ask Jes Goodwin 2 weeks prior to the trial if CHS had caused any issue with GW releases. Mr. Goodwin "happened" to say that, "yes the tervigon kit from CHS delayed GWs tervigon kit."


Nice use of quotations there, but the fact of the matter is sometimes things don't come up in conversation. I can't prove or disprove that testimony anymore than you can. I'd find it interesting that you're basically saying GW would attempt perjury just to win in court. Generally not a smart move and one I don't see GW trying, but I could be wrong.



chapterhousestudios said:


> The interesting thing is that Mr Merrit is the right hand to Mr Goodwin and they work together all the time. So my natural thought was how coincidental that there was no harm done to GWs release or sales, until 2 weeks prior to the trial. It just happened to be brought up with Mr. Goodwin 2 weeks prior with an affirmative answer. Even though Mr Merrit testified during his deposition that no affect had occured 2.5 years after CHS Tervigon kit was released and 1 year after GWs kit was released.


I always figured Phil Kelly to be Goodwin's right hand man, mostly because they seem to collaborate well on projects. Merritt on the other hand is more like everyone's boss from what I gathered.

And while you want to insinuate GW committing perjury I'm going to play devil's advocate some more and point out that it's a horrible idea to do so, and that coincidences do happen. And seeing as they weren't busted for perjury then you must have no proof, thus are slandering GW. 



chapterhousestudios said:


> Of course Mr. Goodwin made a point of saying this on the stand under oath, along with Ms. Stenvenson claiming she had evidence of confusion and Mr. Meritt and Mr. Jones saying that GWs designers never looked at any sort of reference materials that werent GW books to come up with 40K ideas back in the day (even though John Blanche and Martin Footit and another old designer testified they did).


Merritt and Jones may never have looked at other books, while some designers did. The fact of the matter that's been discussed as that GW taking a small bit here and another bit there doesn't make their ideas unprotectable. Their ideas may be a hodgepodge of things, but the way it's blended and the complete package of something like their interpretation of what a Space Marine is (which has later become a trope of it's own _because_ of GW) becomes protectable even if the individual parts aren't.



chapterhousestudios said:


> Seeing how the GW team was full of doublespeak and false bravado on the stand (you guys have only see the Cliffs noted version), I would recommend taking anything they say with a grain of salt, including the fact that CHS caused any delays in their releases. Dont forget that the Eldar Jetbkie Seer and Warlocks have been in the rules for almost 20 years now (2nd edition I think) and they still never released a kit for that model.


I admit I didn't hear everything they've said to date, but honestly I have no more reason to believe you when you've claimed you did this for the hobby, and not because you wanted to cash in on what they had. I've seen the emails with things with how close you could get to things that existed to still make money on them and not end up in court. I never saw the need for you to fill holes for things that GW already sold (like the tactical shoulder pads, or Iron Hand shoulder pads). I'd found your whole buisness model a lot less pathetic and more admirable if you'd focused on original ideas using the universe, or even filling holes like female heads for Guardsmen over copying the stuff GW already sold.

I may have only gotten parts of this whole case, but frankly they didn't paint you as any kind of saint either.



chapterhousestudios said:


> Ill head back to lurking (thanks to those who have supported the effort).
> 
> Nick Villacci
> Chapterhouse Studios LLC


Since you are here, what about the Tervigon exactly? Did you win on that point?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

chapterhousestudios said:


> I am not here to sway anyone in their opinions over right vs wrong etc. I do want to add factual evidence that is in the court case. CHS deposed Allen Merrit and his sworn testimony a year or so before the trial was this:
> 
> "CHS has had no impact on GW sales or product releases" I am paraphrasing but if you want to look through his earlier deposition it is there in writing.
> 
> Now Mr Merrit testified on the stand during the trial, that he "happened" to ask Jes Goodwin 2 weeks prior to the trial if CHS had caused any issue with GW releases. Mr. Goodwin "happened" to say that, "yes the tervigon kit from CHS delayed GWs tervigon kit."
> 
> The interesting thing is that Mr Merrit is the right hand to Mr Goodwin and they work together all the time. So my natural thought was how coincidental that there was no harm done to GWs release or sales, until 2 weeks prior to the trial. It just happened to be brought up with Mr. Goodwin 2 weeks prior with an affirmative answer. Even though Mr Merrit testified during his deposition that no affect had occured 2.5 years after CHS Tervigon kit was released and 1 year after GWs kit was released.
> 
> Of course Mr. Goodwin made a point of saying this on the stand under oath, along with Ms. Stenvenson claiming she had evidence of confusion and Mr. Meritt and Mr. Jones saying that GWs designers never looked at any sort of reference materials that werent GW books to come up with 40K ideas back in the day (even though John Blanche and Martin Footit and another old designer testified they did).
> 
> Seeing how the GW team was full of doublespeak and false bravado on the stand (you guys have only see the Cliffs noted version), I would recommend taking anything they say with a grain of salt, including the fact that CHS caused any delays in their releases. Dont forget that the Eldar Jetbkie Seer and Warlocks have been in the rules for almost 20 years now (2nd edition I think) and they still never released a kit for that model.
> 
> Ill head back to lurking (thanks to those who have supported the effort).
> 
> Nick Villacci
> Chapterhouse Studios LLC


I don't get the point in even posting on here if you're not trying to sway opinions. 
Besides, I don't think it would be "legally advisable" to discuss such things until this matter is settled and over.
Lurking without comment may have been your best option.


----------



## scscofield

::shrugs:: He came to comment, no need to jump all over him guys. If you don't like his stuff or how he does things, so be it. I personally do not like many of the things he makes, I just happen to not agree with past GW release practices also.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> ::shrugs:: He came to comment, no need to jump all over him guys. If you don't like his stuff or how he does things, so be it. I personally do not like many of the things he makes, I just happen to not agree with past GW release practices also.


I'll keep that in mind for if I actually decide to jump down his throat. 

*That said*, frankly Nick, assuming you're still reading this thread and haven't run off on us, I wasn't impressed by that post. It was the first impression I've gotten of you as a person and that person apparently blames GW for being a big meanie and accuses them of perjury.

That aside, if you want to participate I'm sure those of us following this case would like some actual insight on what has been ruled rather than the snippit summaries we've gotten. Just try to leave the name calling out of it.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Zion said:


> I'll keep that in mind for if I actually decide to jump down his throat.
> 
> *That said*, frankly Nick, assuming you're still reading this thread and haven't run off on us, I wasn't impressed by that post. It was the first impression I've gotten of you as a person and that person apparently blames GW for being a big meanie and accuses them of perjury.
> 
> That aside, if you want to participate I'm sure those of us following this case would like some actual insight on what has been ruled rather than the snippit summaries we've gotten. Just try to leave the name calling out of it.


Ditto.


----------



## scscofield

I think a lot of us are curious as to what the end results of this was if your allowed to comment on them.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

scscofield said:


> I think a lot of us are curious as to what the end results of this was if your allowed to comment on them.


Probably, as a guess, not permissible until such time as the decision and associated documents are available for public view.


----------



## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Probably, as a guess, not permissible until such time as the decision and associated documents are available for public view.


I'm sure there are other things he could talk about. Like why he turned down the settlement offers.


----------



## maddermax

From last night, but just wanted to get a few points in before we moved too far past it.



Zion said:


> In GW's defense they -do- have trademarks for Space Marine. In books, minatures/toys (Space Marine toys from the Aliens movie toy line actually acknowledge this _on the package_) and a number of other things, but not in ebooks...in the US. GW was using common law interpretations due to their push into ebooks to secure that, but that only works in the UK. This is the joys of international IP conflicts honestly.
> 
> And no, we don't need another debate if they "should" be able to trademark the term because they did. In the 80s. We just have to live with that as is now.


Trademarks inappropriately given can be revoked and challenged in court, we do not have to live with it, and that's if they only stuck to where they had registered trademarks (In the UK), which they didn't. I don't have a problem with them having Space Marine as a trademark in miniatures, but in literature it's kind of stupid - it's not a widely used known mark outside of miniatures, and it's a general trope in science fiction. The point is anyway that GW has been shooting first and asking questions later.



Zion said:


> I'm going to disagree here. People overlook a lot of requirements of IP law to maintain the trademark or copyright that you own. If you don't actively defend it you lose it. Period. GW isn't wildly running around swinging blind, they are doing what they are *legally required to do*. They had even offered to settle with CHS (according to CHS anyways, GW was willing to settle), but CHS turned them down every step of the way. So GW was forced into a position that backing down would automatically cause them to weaken all their claims (as they'd automatically lose) so they went all ten rounds with CHS because they didn't have any other choice.


You posted back on p25 quotes to the effect that they would not settle with him, now you say they offered to settle reasonably and he shunned them. Do you have anything to back this up, or are you just making it up?

Anyway, there's a duty to protect your IP, there isn't a duty to claim every term under the sun is your IP, among other things. GW forced themselves into this position, not the other way around. Rather than taking reasonable IP protection measures, they wanted to crush CHS completely.



Zion said:


> Now was every claim GW had correct? No, not really, but they were far from just acting as bullies like is claimed too. They were doing what they were legally required to do to protect their IP. If I was in their shoes I'd done something pretty close to the same (though prepping the company and getting my ducks in a row BEFORE I went for a suit would have been my difference from them).
> 
> GW winning it wouldn't have been any different than the way things were 3 years ago with GW, save for GW having better ammo to deal with infringements.
> 
> I never had anything against most 3rd party companies. *Scribor, Maxmini*...those guys do fine by me. They fill holes that GW legitimately never touches. But CHS was filling holes that already existed (Iron Hands shoulderpads? Seriously? There was a kit that already came with those! Not to mention shoulder pads with arrows and the like which are ALSO things GW already produces.). There is a line between "conversion pieces" and "taking GW's cookies", and CHS was legitimately trying to take GW's cookies a lot of the time.


You realise that Scribor, Maxmini, Hitech and Kromlec were mentioned by name in court, in relation to possible infringment? They went after CHS as the easiest target to start with, but their success when all the dust settles will determine if and when they'll go after those other producers who "do fine by you".



Zion said:


> Hell it came up in the trial that CHS' Tervigon kit delayed the GW one as they had to go back and adjust their original design so it'd stand out more. That's not "filling holes GW will never fill", that's "stuff that GW is going to produce that we can cash in for a quick buck now before they get there".


Now, notice you bringing this subject up, the one that CHS commented on? lets keep this in mind for later...




djinn24 said:


> Actually Games Workshop owns the ebook trademark on Space Marine in the UK, they do not own the trademark for printed or ebook in the US.
> 
> That entire deal with Spots the Space Marine was more Amazon's fault then GW. GW requested the book be pulled from the UK Amazon site. Amazon pulled it from all of its servers.


No, Games Workshop was trying to shut Spots down everywhere, it wasn't just Amazon being region blind. The author communicated specifically with GW lawyers (according to her post on the matter), claiming they had a common law trademark on Spacemarine in literature (which means they weren't talking about their registered trademark in Europe, but trying to get it pulled everywhere). 



Zion said:


> I'll keep that in mind for if I actually decide to jump down his throat.
> 
> *That said*, frankly Nick, assuming you're still reading this thread and haven't run off on us, I wasn't impressed by that post. It was the first impression I've gotten of you as a person and that person apparently blames GW for being a big meanie and accuses them of perjury.
> 
> That aside, if you want to participate I'm sure those of us following this case would like some actual insight on what has been ruled rather than the snippit summaries we've gotten. Just try to leave the name calling out of it.


He came on here to answer a point and put forth his side of an argument that you, yourself, brought up, and you did jump down his throat. If you want to make accusations on behalf of GW don't get so worked up when someone comes on and defends against them.



Zion said:


> That aside, if you want to participate I'm sure those of us following this case would like some actual insight on what has been ruled rather than the snippit summaries we've gotten. Just try to leave the name calling out of it.


This, at least, we can agree on. Both on the wanting more information front, and on the name calling front... though it's not him that I think is the problem in that regard.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

chapterhousestudios said:


> Ill head back to lurking (thanks to those who have supported the effort).
> 
> Nick Villacci
> Chapterhouse Studios LLC


Hi Nick, 

If I can keep you from lurking for just a few more moments 

I'm sure there are a bunch of people, like me, out there that don't really understand the legal side of the case and have seen the result figures but don't really understand them. 

This list is lifted from BoLS so I cannot guarantee its accuracy:



> Copyright Claims
> 160 claims alleged against CHS
> -GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
> -CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.


So what are the implications in regards to the 1/3 of items GW won on? Using the powerfist as an example, does that mean you will have to pull the existing product from sale? Or just re-design? 



> General Trademark Claims
> 9 claims alleged against CHS
> -CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.


So does this mean that in places where you used terms such as tyranid, tervigon and such, you can continue to use the terms freely?



> Disputed Trademark Claims
> 21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
> CHS won 11 claims
> GW won 10 claims
> 
> GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
> 61 claims alleged against CHS
> CHS won 35 claims
> GW won 27


I've no idea about any of this part. But judging by the below list, I assume its more to do with the naming of things. So, for example, will the Doomseer need to be renamed? 



> Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
> CHS lost on some individual products including:
> -Doomseer
> -Dark Elf Arch Tortress
> 
> CHS won on some individual products including:
> -Jetbike
> -Super-heavy walker model
> -Lizard Ogre


The reason I ask specifically is becuase a lot of us are confused by just exactly what the outcome has been so far. We're interested in what this case means for elements of the CHS product line and also for what impact a court ruling on many of these things will have on the wider hobby. 

For example, will everyone now be able to start using the terms you won on for their products without fear of GW coming down with the legal hammer, as there is a legal precedent (is that the term) for their use. 

At the end of the day, we selfish gamers are mostly interested in how it affects us. So if you could shed some light, that would be awesome!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

All I have to say to Nick Villacci is...








I've been on chapterhouses side ever since I heard of this case.

Nick saw a demand and supplied a product, if it's shitty or not doesn't matter as that's just your opinion. Did he go too far? GW thinks so and I think it's very good they actually sued Chapterhouse. GW has always thought of themselves as above everyone else thinking they own the rights to the entire miniatures business and any and all names associated.

This is good for the miniature hobby as it means GW might not sue everyone left and right (If they would have won they would 100% have gone after every single aftermarket bits seller). GW has been bullying allot of people with C&D letters, and people have been to afraid too challenge them so have simply closed down sites or stopped covering GW and started covering other games instead.

Now people might not be bullied as easily as before, which is good for the hobby.


So how will this court case affect the miniature hobby? We might see a few more aftermarket bits sellers pop up which is always good. Will we see too many? Perhaps, but in the end competition creates innovation. If the product doesn't sell the creator will have to innovate by creating better/cheaper products. As in everything businesses will come and go as demand increase and decrease.

Did Nick go too far? That's not for us to judge, no one of us is that familiar with IP and Copyright law that we can make that kind of judgement without knowing all the facts.
The only thing we can say is that it was expected due to chapterhouse being a bit too infringy (if that's even a word).

No matter what this was needed and the sooner the better. You can't deny that GW keeps on making outrageous claims regarding what they think they own in regards to terms and such. Now GW might understand that they didn't create those terms and can't claim IP, TM or Copyright on them. But most importantly this will protect the interests of everyone as a single company can no longer state that they own this generic term and no one else can use it even though the company in question didn't invent the term.

This had to happen, GW had to get their hands slapped and no one is to blame but themselves. I'm curious to know what terms and phrases that GW didn't win the exclusive rights to.

Chapterhouse brought this on themselves but it HAD to happen, sooner or later someone would have had to take a stand vs GW and their bullshit self entitlement.
GW wont change though, they will most likely keep on sending out their C&D letter every week hoping their scare tactics and bullying will keep competitors out of business.
Difference now is that American companies will have some protection from however this case ends up.

We just need GW to sue a european company now to get a judgement here in europe as well.

In the end all I can say is Good Job Nick and a big thanks to your lawyers as well. You have done the miniatures market a huge favour, someone had to take the low blows from GW and you did. What you've done is liberate the miniatures market from a big self entitled bully, to what extent we dont know yet but from the looks of things you've freed a few things from GW greedy clutches.

All you need to do now is innovate, the 3D renders are a good start. Anyone can get anything 3D printed nowdays so making models is really easy and quite cheap as well. You just need to step up your game, use what you've learnt from this lawsuit and dont overstep your boundaries.

Continue to produce stuff, even if some people think it's shit. Sales figures is the only number you need to take into consideration when comparing to what a few people have to say about your products on a forum. There will always be haters, heck I dont like 90% of the stuff you make currently but the ones I have bought (Ymgarl Heads amongst others) I really liked. You need to move over to resin though, the Ymgarl heads I bought (and later sold because they were metal) just make the genestealers fall over.

No one is forced to buy your product, if it's inferior or not doesn't matter. What matters is that the alternative is there, if there was no alternatives people would cry that everything looks the same, and now they cry it's not up to their expected standard.

If GW doesn't want people to create aftermarket models they should supply them themselves. There are allot of ways GW could do this but they wont, the profits are too low or some other factor makes them not want to invest in it, perhaps their lawyer fees are preventing them from gathering the capitol needed....

This is how I see this whole thing, then again I'm crazy so what do I know :crazy:


----------



## Zion

maddermax said:


> From last night, but just wanted to get a few points in before we moved too far past it.


Fair enough



maddermax said:


> Trademarks inappropriately given can be revoked and challenged in court, we do not have to live with it, and that's if they only stuck to where they had registered trademarks (In the UK), which they didn't. I don't have a problem with them having Space Marine as a trademark in miniatures, but in literature it's kind of stupid - it's not a widely used known mark outside of miniatures, and it's a general trope in science fiction. The point is anyway that GW has been shooting first and asking questions later.


Actually GW has a wide range on their Space Marine trademark in the US, and from my understanding it's even wider in the UK. Infact we can see everything it covers in the UK at this moment in time here.

This includes:



> Paper, cardboard and goods made from these materials, not included in other classes; printed matter; bookbinding material; photographs; stationery; adhesives for stationery or household purposes; artists' materials; paint brushes; typewriters and office requisites (except furniture); instructional and teaching material (except apparatus); plastic materials for packaging (not included in other classes); playing cards; printers' type; printing blocks.


In other words books. All books. I think they might be trying to get ebooks too, but that might be already covered under Class 9 goods.



maddermax said:


> You posted back on p25 quotes to the effect that they would not settle with him, now you say they offered to settle reasonably and he shunned them. Do you have anything to back this up, or are you just making it up?


I never said settlements were reasonable, I said they were offered as I gathered from what I've read on Dakka. What I posted on page 25 was not my words, it was Nick's. He'd have to explain things for us.

And no, I don't run around making things up.



maddermax said:


> Anyway, there's a duty to protect your IP, there isn't a duty to claim every term under the sun is your IP, among other things. GW forced themselves into this position, not the other way around. Rather than taking reasonable IP protection measures, they wanted to crush CHS completely.


"Reasonable IP Protections"? I'd love to know what reasonable is because it's pretty clear cut that you have to at least _attempt_ to defend your IP to keep it. That ranges from a C&D to a lawsuit. Someone felt they had the grounds for a suit so they did it. 

They were wrong about being ready for it as we've seen because their ducks were not in a row from the get go.



maddermax said:


> You realise that Scribor, Maxmini, Hitech and Kromlec were mentioned by name in court, in relation to possible infringment? They went after CHS as the easiest target to start with, but their success when all the dust settles will determine if and when they'll go after those other producers who "do fine by you".


I didn't read that they were mentioned as possible infringers, but I did read that GW had 200 other claims (or companies as some people have said, I'd have to reread it to know for sure which) that they were prepared to go forward with after this. That's pretty vague statement either way though and we'll have to wait and see what comes out of this.

And those other companies, for the most part have been pretty good about avoiding mentioning anything they make being specifically made to fit GW things. That'll likely change in the future since GW laid out that the ground work for mention their products correctly though.



maddermax said:


> Now, notice you bringing this subject up, the one that CHS commented on? lets keep this in mind for later...


Yes I did. I replied to it didn't I?



maddermax said:


> No, Games Workshop was trying to shut Spots down everywhere, it wasn't just Amazon being region blind. The author communicated specifically with GW lawyers (according to her post on the matter), claiming they had a common law trademark on Spacemarine in literature (which means they weren't talking about their registered trademark in Europe, but trying to get it pulled everywhere).


Digging back into my memore I believe GW sent a letter to Amazon saying that they weren't 100% on if it infringed and asked for the ebook to be taken down while the research it. That's what happened, nothing else came out of it, the book went back up.

And yes, GW owns Space Marine for books in the US and the UK. The ebook thing is a gray area though.



maddermax said:


> He came on here to answer a point and put forth his side of an argument that you, yourself, brought up, and you did jump down his throat. If you want to make accusations on behalf of GW don't get so worked up when someone comes on and defends against them.


Don't get so worked up when I disagree with someone's post if you want to correct me the same way. I don't sugar coat anything I say, and present it as is. If you feel I'm being too aggressive that's you're interpretation but I can answer honestly for myself that my intent is to be forward and honest, nothing more. 

Now on the other hand if I was angry, there'd be a lot of swearing involved, and I might even use some red mod text. I'm pretty much usually not that angry, even if I am knee deep into someone's post.



maddermax said:


> This, at least, we can agree on. Both on the wanting more information front, and on the name calling front... though it's not him that I think is the problem in that regard.


You can disagree on that point if you want, but this is where I draw the line. End of discussion on how mean or not mean I was. That is off topic and I will delete anymore posts about it.

Now I'd like to hear from Nick some things that he can share. Things preferably that don't involve him taking pot shots at GW who isn't participating in this discussion. We're all adults here, and as long as this stays civil and we don't have any more inflammatory posts aimed at either side we'll be fine.

EDIT: Just to clarify: If you think I was hard on Nick don't post it here. I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic about this case, not about how much you hate me for saying things. If you want to yell at me about what I said to Nick, PM me instead and I'll listen to all your grievances there so we don't end up turning this into an off topic debate. Thank you for your cooperation in keeping this thread alive by not making it about an unrelated topic.


----------



## scscofield

.......


----------



## Zion

It seems there are some who seem to think I have some urge to white knight every single thing GW has ever done. This really isn't true. And since people seem to miss when I say anything mean about GW here's my long list of things I think GW could (and should) have done differently that would have prevented this mess:

1. *Better control over their IP. *
GW has shown that they have very poor control over keeping track of paperwork (such as the original agreements between artists and GW), and has a poor follow through on things such as their dealing with the US Copyright Office. 

Frankly for any business to be so disorganized and to fail to properly follow up on all correspondence quickly, and timely is disgraceful. They were sloppy and it rightfully cost them.

2. *Being better prepared.
*Maybe it's a lack of dealing with anyone who was willing to go ten rounds with them, or maybe it was just never expecting to ever need to go to court but GW dropped the ball on this. If you're planning on having a lawsuit you need to make sure that your house is in order first.

They didn't and that cost them in the discovery.

3. *Clearly define your greivances
*From what I've read GW never really defined _what_ it was CHS was doing wrong for a long time. The claims chart lacked visual evidence, and the C&D (if there was one, Nick would need to clarify there because that's been a grey area of debate I've seen) has been reported to say "stop doing everything".

It was sloppy legal work, and poor planning and that rightfully bit them in the ass too.

4. *Make sure your claims are supported
*Some of GW's claims were good. They were well founded, had strong enough evidence to make it through the Jury and were upheld.

The rest ranged from claiming very generic sorts of things (arrows), to poorly defining what about those things that CHS was violating to basically just throwing random shit at the wall and trying to see what sticks because they weren't even sure if they could defend them.

Frankly it was dumb, sloppy and it cost them too as they lost a large number of claims. I don't know what specifically they lost yet, but that has to hurt at least a bit, even for as big as GW is in our little nice hobby.

5. *Don't put forth claims that aren't legally supported
*Something GW did VERY wrong was trying to argue that CHS couldn't ever use their trademarked terms. That's illegal, and it was dumb for them to try and argue that. Seriously GW, WTF?

6. *Clearly define your IP to others
*Something GW could have done a looooong time ago that would have done everyone a favour was draw the line in the sand sooner. Say what you are willing to accept others doing (like using their trademark correctly to say things are compatible) and what you are not.

Be specific in the nature of what you're doing. Hell set forth guidelines as a downloadable packet so anyone who even _thinks _about making a t-shirt with an Aquila on it knows what they can and can't do. This gives GW a better stance to approach from so they aren't reaching from everywhere, but are attacking from one specific point.

7. *Get more sculptors and fill the goddamned gaps
*Seriously, they've started doing this with FW (but are falling behind due to the Heresy stuff), but if they need to contract out, write some damned contracts and do it. They can afford to do this kind of thing, and it'd help them fill in holes like missing chapter pads, or extra bits.

8. *Bits service or at least a contracted bits service
*Yes the old bits service was a mess. GW either needs to work out a way to bring it back so people can get the stuff they need faster and from the source, or broker a deal with companies that are already doing it for a bit of that pie and cheaper sets to them. Seriously, GW needs to do something here if they really want to say that everyone is taking their pie because this is money their losing because they won't support it.

9. *Be willing to deal with the community
*Yes, we generally bitch too much, and we hate everything they ever make until the newest thing comes along and we can hate that instead. But failing to accept direct feedback from us is hurting the company's image, is making people more willing to look for other model sources and is making the community feel like it's not being respected. That's not a good thing.

10. *Keep doing what their doing with 6th
*I don't know why they didn't do it during 5th or even 4th, but the faster release pace, the more filled in codexes, and the new kits for old things is all good. They need to keep doing it and not skip things like the Farseer option. Even if it's a Finecast conversion set it'd be a major improvement over no model option at all.

11. *Beat people by out performing them, not forcing them to be shut down by the court
*I'm all for GW trying to defend it's IP (though the really need to learn a more friendly way to write those C&Ds at least, and be willing to broker some kind of comprimise), but frankly if GW wants to kill Scribor, or Maxmini or even CHS they need to bring out their stuff faster, and better. Maybe it'll take expanding the departments or hiring sculptors on commisions until they can really get caught up with all the holes they have, but that's how they should be trying to take out the compition, not by bankrupting them in court, but by being better at what they should be doing anyways.

12. *Use some manners
*GW has a habit of sending out really cold, and threatening C&Ds. These do not get people to want to cooperate with you if they feel you're trying to bully them. Take some time to draft up some basic form letters that are politer, treat the recipient as a person not a criminal and stater demands reasonably, and clearly. It'll go a lot farther than what they've been doing in the past.

So there, 12 things off the top of my head that put GW where it is now and what it should be doing instead.

EDIT: If you missed the edit in my previous post, just to make sure it doesn't get missed: This thread is about the case between GW and CHS. If you feel you need to bitch me out because you felt I was too hard on Nick please PM me so this thread can stay on topic. Thank you.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Zion said:


> 1. *Better control over their IP. *
> 
> Standard problem in a company that has been in operation for decades. Besides I'd rather they spent their money of making cool stuff not protecting themselves from leeches.
> 
> 2. *Being better prepared.*
> 
> This is the lawyers problem not GW's
> 
> 3. *Clearly define your greivances*
> 
> No one ever does, having been in legal wrangles before, over contracts mainly, it is a standard practise to not narrow your frame of reference too early, if at all.
> 
> 4. *Make sure your claims are supported*
> 
> Juries are strange animals who knows what they will decide is right or wrong in a case like this. Throw out a heap and it allows them to placate themselves by grant each side a little bit
> 
> 
> 5. *Don't put forth claims that aren't legally supported*
> 
> GW made the conditions underwhich CHS could use there trademarks. I note the CHS website is now formatted in that manner.
> 
> 
> 6. *Clearly define your IP to others*
> 
> GW drew that line in the sand sometime ago. This is the first time someone has challenged the line. GW's IP is blindingly obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 7. *Get more sculptors and fill the goddamned gaps*
> 
> Why? Every company has a finite amount of resources for R&D. I also think that a lot of the "unmodelled" characters were there for flavour and the opportunity for hobbyists to let their imaginations run to come up with their idea of it for converting. It is also great to buy a codex that has room to grow on the mini front, now we are confronted with "Here is you Codex and you Mini's there will be no new ones until the next Codex update. Cheers for fucking that up for us CHS .
> 
> 8. *Bits service or at least a contracted bits service*
> 
> NO OTHER PLASTIC MODEL COMPANY RUNS A BITS SERVICE !!!!!!!!
> Aftermarket is all the rage in the aircraft modelling scene and it is a great way for other companies to make adds and extras. The products of those manufacturers are generally all made under agreement and are labelled "For use with Company X Model Y" which is what GW have said is also fine with them.
> 
> As for GW genuine bits, we can trade them amongst ourselves.
> 
> 9. *Be willing to deal with the community*
> 
> They do. Just because they aren't crapping on endlessly on forums and tardbook that are generally only full of hate anyway doesn't mean they aren't listening to the community. The latest round of FAQ covered a large number of questions we had asked on these very forums. You can send and email to customer support and get a reply on any subject. Most of what I see as "GW not listening to the community" is actually "GW ISN'T LISTENING TO MEEEE !!!! tantrums. GW is the most popular minatures company on the globe and has the greatest following. They have to try to please as many as they can not just the loudest recalcitrant.
> 
> 10. *Keep doing what their doing with 6th*
> 
> Yes the latest barrage of new releases is great. Be prepared for a long "consolidation" after it all tho'
> 
> 11. *Beat people by out performing them, not forcing them to be shut down by the court*
> 
> Rip offs are rip offs and need to be legally slapped down.
> 
> 12. *Use some manners*
> 
> A C&D is not an "ask nicely" thing. They are required to be so under pain of losing what is rightfully theirs if they do not take the hard line.
> 
> Remember this is someone who has to all intent and purposes stolen from them. I doubt many of us would use to many manners with a burglar.
> 
> They don't want cooperation they want it to stop. The time for cooperation is before the items go to market, as per the highly detailed procedures on the GW website.


----------



## Zion

Magpie said:


> 1. *Better control over their IP. *
> 
> Standard problem in a company that has been in operation for decades. Besides I'd rather they spent their money of making cool stuff not protecting themselves from leeches.


GW has also been battling "leeches" for decades. Just because no one went to court with them over it until now doesn't mean they gained the right to be sloppy.



Magpie said:


> 2. *Being better prepared.*
> 
> This is the lawyers problem not GW's


You're right, but I was lumping GW and GW's counsel together into one group.



Magpie said:


> 3. *Clearly define your greivances*
> 
> No one ever does, having been in legal wrangles before, over contracts mainly, it is a standard practise to not narrow your frame of reference too early, if at all.


Common practice doesn't mean smart practice. They had a loooooong list of grievances that they didn't even show pictures of any of it until well after a year into this. And the word is on the letter they sent CHS was that there was no specified complaint other than "stop making EVERYTHING and send us the molds so we can break them".



Magpie said:


> 4. *Make sure your claims are supported*
> 
> Juries are strange animals who knows what they will decide is right or wrong in a case like this. Throw out a heap and it allows them to placate themselves by grant each side a little bit


Better supported claims could have had this wrapped up in the Summary Judgement.



Magpie said:


> 5. *Don't put forth claims that aren't legally supported*
> 
> GW made the conditions underwhich CHS could use there trademarks. I note the CHS website is now formatted in that manner.


They didn't do that at first and for a long time they've been demanding things of people in terms of their IP that were illegal. People have fair use rights of trademarked terms, particularly when they've made some things that fit your things.




Magpie said:


> 6. *Clearly define your IP to others*
> 
> GW drew that line in the sand sometime ago. This is the first time someone has challenged the line. GW's IP is blindingly obvious.


GW's line in the sand was "DON'T TOUCH ANY OF MY STUFF EVER" which wasn't really a strong legal point to come from. They'd been better served by saying, "Here's how to correctly use my trademarks" at the very least.



Magpie said:


> 7. *Get more sculptors and fill the goddamned gaps*
> 
> Why? Every company has a finite amount of resources for R&D. I also think that a lot of the "unmodelled" characters were there for flavour and the opportunity for hobbyists to let their imaginations run to come up with their idea of it for converting. It is also great to buy a codex that has room to grow on the mini front, now we are confronted with "Here is you Codex and you Mini's there will be no new ones until the next Codex update. Cheers for fucking that up for us CHS .


If they want to beat companies like CHS, their best bet is to legitimately beat them: by having all the different official in universe stuff already made and available. Besides, if CHS was making $100,000 a year on their limited catalouge and GW -really- wants a peice of that action that's the better way to do it. 



Magpie said:


> 8. *Bits service or at least a contracted bits service*
> 
> NO OTHER PLASTIC MODEL COMPANY RUNS A BITS SERVICE !!!!!!!!
> Aftermarket is all the rage in the aircraft modelling scene and it is a great way for other companies to make adds and extras. The products of those manufacturers are generally all made under agreement and are labelled "For use with Company X Model Y" which is what GW have said is also fine with them.
> 
> As for GW genuine bits, we can trade them amongst ourselves.


The only other all plastic wargaming model companies I know as this time are either third party companies, or GW. Privateer Press has some kind of plastic resin that's not really a plastic so I can't really count them on this. I don't count in the business models of companies that make model cars, trains, ect because GW has never followed their buisness model.

GW has shown that they don't like other companies stepping in on the bits market, either from sellers online, or 3rd party companies. This falls back to the same point I was trying to make before. The best way for GW to make that money is to outdo the people they feel are taking it from them.



Magpie said:


> 9. *Be willing to deal with the community*
> 
> They do. Just because they aren't crapping on endlessly on forums and tardbook that are generally only full of hate anyway doesn't mean they aren't listening to the community. The latest round of FAQ covered a large number of questions we had asked on these very forums. You can send and email to customer support and get a reply on any subject. Most of what I see as "GW not listening to the community" is actually "GW ISN'T LISTENING TO MEEEE !!!! tantrums. GW is the most popular minatures company on the globe and has the greatest following. They have to try to please as many as they can not just the loudest recalcitrant.


The FAQs have only gotten better in the past year. The fact of the matter is when GW was being beaten up over Spots the Space Marine they shut down their Facebook. When their own forums had too much complaining they shut down.

GW has a habit of not wanting to deal with their angrier customers that frankly doesn't win them any points. Yes they have one of the best customer services I've seen from a company, but they still have issues with how to correctly deal with problems when the customer base gets riled for any reason.



Magpie said:


> 10. *Keep doing what their doing with 6th*
> 
> Yes the latest barrage of new releases is great. Be prepared for a long "consolidation" after it all tho'


Maybe by the time they burn through Fantasy assuming they keep this up. 



Magpie said:


> 11. *Beat people by out performing them, not forcing them to be shut down by the court*
> 
> Rip offs are rip offs and need to be legally slapped down.


Not everything out there are rip offs though. Hell this case has proven that there are things people make GW can't sue people over. If GW really wants them gone they need to release a better product more than drag everyone to court who has ever made a compatible part.



Magpie said:


> 12. *Use some manners*
> 
> A C&D is not an "ask nicely" thing. They are required to be so under pain of losing what is rightfully theirs if they do not take the hard line.
> 
> Remember this is someone who has to all intent and purposes stolen from them. I doubt many of us would use to many manners with a burglar.
> 
> They don't want cooperation they want it to stop. The time for cooperation is before the items go to market, as per the highly detailed procedures on the GW website.


I disagree that it couldn't be done better. Jack Daniels, the whiskey company who moves more product a day than GW ever will, disagrees. There are ways to protect your IP without being an asshole about it. And if being nice doesn't work, THEN be an asshole about it by taking them to task for it. The fact of the matter is the few C&Ds I've seen come out of GW were so harsh and accusatory in nature that people got bent out of shape and were up in arms about it.

And that hurts GW on the PR side, even if it's something we, the online community see more than the rest of them. People accuse GW of bullying and honestly I think this is part of why. 

Look, I'm not saying GW has to do all these things, I'm saying they're all things that could have kept GW from being cast as Snidely Whiplash all the time, would have had more people supporting them and would be better for them in the future. 

The fact of the matter is the 3rd party scene is not going away. Bits sellers aren't going away. And their best defense against both of those is to beat them at their own game. And if, or when, a company starts to use their IP incorrectly they can respond to it first civilly, by stating the problem they have clearly so the recipient can then respond with actual knowledge of what their being accused of, and then only dragging someone to court if they absolutely have to, and only if their ducks are in a row first.

GW make a lot of mistakes in general that created the problems they're facing now. Not every one of them was unavoidable, but frankly they need to at least look at what they did wrong in terms of this trial and fix that before they even try going after anyone else.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

The reason the bits market has been shut down is because traders were abusing the system and where selling super cheap kits

The best way to deal with recalcitrant bullshitters who aren't the slightest bit interested in facts is to shut them down.
GW doesn't run forums and shut down face book because it was overrun by trolls who are useful to no one.

You honestly think that JD pointing out that the label is very similar to a smaller company who sells what is basically a different product is the same as CHS blatantly riding on GW's coattails ?


----------



## Djinn24

The Jack Daniel reference doesn't have anything to do about the product, it has everything to do about how to not be a raging cunt in a CnD, still protect your product, and build respect. GW normally fails at 2 of those, even when dealing with supportive sites. It's part of the reason we don't deal with Black Library much at The Founding Fields anymore.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Magpie_Oz said:


> The best way to deal with recalcitrant bullshitters who aren't the slightest bit interested in facts is to shut them down.
> GW doesn't run forums and shut down face book because it was overrun by trolls who are useful to no one.


The reason their facebook page failed was because they completely failed to understand that people had a right and ability to reply to them. They thought they could use FB as an advertising platform in a similar way to how other companies use TV, they were wrong. People voiced their grievances with GW and they still got no response, GW failed to respond and people got even more pissed off. Anyone who said anything negative about their products got their comments deleted and GW acted like massive twats. I got banned from their page for saying that the new Mongilators looked like they were sculpted by special needs kids, a bit harsh maybe but not really worth a ban. 

On the other hand, Mantic, who I have next to no respect for, actually communicate with their fan base through FB and the like, ask them a question you'll get an answer, they don't even seem to mind you trolling them and step in to inform people of your right to an opinion. GW closing its FB page may have ultimately been due to negative comments and haters hatin' but they have no one to blame for that situation but themselves. 

If KFC can engage with its customer base and answer direct questions about the welfare of their chickens and whether of not their fries are crispy enough GW could and should have been able to answer the criticisms that were levelled at them through FB and other sources, instead they picked up their ball and ran off home because they can't help but act like spoilt little shits in face of controversy.

GW, Miniatures, not as good as they could be
Customer service, outstanding
Public relations, currently lagging somewhere behind herpes and aids. 

Even Xbox managed to pop up and admit they fucked up, GW only need to do the same and a lot of people will congratulate them for it. The haters will still hate but that will never change, they'll hate whatever happens. Those who have genuine grievances ill see the change of heart for what it is, its a win win for GW.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

That's just not true Norm.

The individual shop FB pages are still operational but the main GW one was shut down because of all the hate posts over the Spots bollocks. 

GW issued a "press" release and that wasn't enough to satisfy the pitch fork band wagoners who went insane in typical tardbook style


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Magpie_Oz said:


> That's just not true Norm.
> 
> The individual shop FB pages are still operational but the main GW one was shut down because of all the hate posts over the Spots bollocks.
> 
> GW issued a "press" release and that wasn't enough to satisfy the pitch fork band wagoners who went insane in typical tardbook style


The very fact that they released a press statement was news in and of itself and you didn't see that as remotely unusual behaviour? 

Facebook is a two way street, most companies advertise through FB manage to do it successfully, they engage with their prospective customers, they reply to their concerns, they call bullshit if they see it. GW thought they could use FB to just pump out crap about their products and as usual for GW, we were supposed to be thankful. No, when they release one of their fucking diabolical videos people said they were crap, some just wailed and cried like they always do, others actually put forward constructive criticisms, GW ignored the lot, carried on making shit videos and still act like we should be thankful. It took a net-wide shit storm for GW to actually realise that they should probably say something other than "BUY BUY BUY BUY" to their fans but it was already too late, the damage had been done. GW allows itself to be trolled and does nothing to prevent it, they are the reason their FB page was a failure, if not, why is Mantic's still open, Sphere wars, Dropzone commander, Hell Dorado, Malifaux? 

Because they will engage with their communities, that's why, they answer the negative as well as celebrating the positives and because they are not GW, that's why.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

normtheunsavoury said:


> if not, why is Mantic's still open, Sphere wars, Dropzone commander, Hell Dorado, Malifaux?
> 
> Because they will engage with their communities, that's why, they answer the negative as well as celebrating the positives and because they are not GW, that's why.


That is what will be at the centre of GW's ultimate downfall. It won't be quick. But I think the hobby landscape will be VERY different in 10 years time. With advances in technology and the prevalence of kick starter. Anyone can start a miniatures line and get it off the ground. I think it's already heading there, but the hobby of the future will be many different companies, all successful, filling different areas of the niche, and GW will be crippling beneath the weight of stores they can't afford to keep open. That's just my long term prediction.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

The thing is I don't want to see GW go under, I like the stuff they do, I love the universe and have invested a lot into it. What I hate is the constant accusations that everything GW does wrong is actually the fan's fault, we fucked it up and no one can blame GW for anything. 

I don't claim to understand GW's business practices or their long term plans, I don't work for them, why should I know? But I do have the right to say where I think they are going wrong, to say that X, Y and Z were mistakes, the biggest one being GW's refusal to engage with its fans, treating us like we should be thankful for any small crumbs it throws us. 

If anything it should be the other way round, GW should be thankful that despite the crap they have pulled over the years, despite the insane decisions and arrogant attitude, we are still here, keeping them afloat for the game we love. How much longer we will be here is another matter.


----------



## chapterhousestudios

I cant provide a lot of insight, seeing that the appeal is in motion and there is still a ways to go, but I will do what I can with the facts everyone has access too (since I studied them for 2 weeks while in Chicago and on the stand). Once the rest of the items become public record I will be happy to discuss them.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

chapterhousestudios said:


> I cant provide a lot of insight, seeing that the appeal is in motion and there is still a ways to go, but I will do what I can with the facts everyone has access too (since I studied them for 2 weeks while in Chicago and on the stand). Once the rest of the items become public record I will be happy to discuss them.


That would be cool, thanks man.


----------



## Zion

Glad you could come back Nick. Anything you could share is more than we've got at the moment.


----------



## chapterhousestudios

Anything specific?


----------



## Djinn24

I do Nick, the list of specific infringement and non infringement, is it public and do you have it? 

You're kits have about a 50/50 approval rate. Any chance on rejoin the ones that get ok acceptance now the trial is over? 

Are you accepting donations for your fine? 

Do you do tours of interviews for sites? I am in Texas all the time and would love to do a sit down for Heresy and the podcast I am on.


----------



## Madden

IT would be better if nick keeps quiet untill it's all over for good as info put out to soon could bias any appeals or cause unintended consequences.


----------



## Djinn24

Not talking about tomorrow.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

djinn24 said:


> Not talking about tomorrow.


Day after tomorrow, maybe?


----------



## chapterhousestudios

djinn24 said:


> I do Nick, the list of specific infringement and non infringement, is it public and do you have it?
> 
> You're kits have about a 50/50 approval rate. Any chance on rejoin the ones that get ok acceptance now the trial is over?
> 
> Are you accepting donations for your fine?
> 
> Do you do tours of interviews for sites? I am in Texas all the time and would love to do a sit down for Heresy and the podcast I am on.


I do have a list, but it is not final (as the judge hasnt made rulings yet) and many items are open to appeal. I do not think its public yet.

Not sure I understand on the approval rating question.

I am hesitant to take donations, I want to let the kickstarter be a way for people to show their support though.

My "site" is pretty boring, its a corner of my garage and a room in my home (which is always chaotic due to being worked in). Interviews would be a possibility once this is all over though.

Nick


----------



## Zion

chapterhousestudios said:


> I do have a list, but it is not final (as the judge hasnt made rulings yet) and many items are open to appeal. I do not think its public yet.


I can confirm that it is not. I'm curious as we know you mentioned that you were considering an appeal on some items, is GW as well?



chapterhousestudios said:


> Not sure I understand on the approval rating question.


No idea either.



chapterhousestudios said:


> I am hesitant to take donations, I want to let the kickstarter be a way for people to show their support though.


I do want to point out that anyone who wants to show GW that they agree with the judgement needs to still tell GW that as they won't know why people are supporting the kickstarter, assuming they even pay attention to that. It's hard to see intent in a check afterall.

Anyone who feels like telling GW what's what, I'd recommend writing letters to Kirby and the board of directors about it. But keep it professional so it doesn't just get round filed.



chapterhousestudios said:


> My "site" is pretty boring, its a corner of my garage and a room in my home (which is always chaotic due to being worked in). Interviews would be a possibility once this is all over though.
> 
> Nick


Those could be interesting.


----------



## Djinn24

I figured the juries finding would be public information since the trial was open, my mistake. 

What I meant by approval rating is some people consider certain sculpts to be lacking the full potential that could have been achieved, while others have been acclaimed as sorely need and very well liked. Now that the trial is pretty wrapped up i was wondering if you are going to use improved techniques and technology to make them better. 

Hmmm a way to show support of the judges decision to GW may not be a bad idea. Even as a GW fan boy I have not been able to support the shit they have done this year. I talk about that and the trial on my segment on the Screaming Heretic podcast. 

Depending where in Texas I would love to do a sit down with you. Video and audio. Open up the question pool to the forum with a pre approved list of you like.


----------



## Zion

From PACER:

06/14/2013 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Nunc pro tunc 6/14/2013: Jury deliberations concluded. Verdict returned in open court. A judgment will not be entered at this time pending further discussions regarding the form of the judgment given the complexity of the verdict form. The deadline for filing motions pursuant to Rules 50 and 59 relating to the jury's verdict is 7/15/2013. A status hearing is set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 a.m. to address that point as well as what further proceedings will be required regarding plaintiff's request for an injunction. (mk) Modified on 6/19/2013 (or, ). (Entered: 06/19/2013) 

06/14/2013 JURY Verdict entered in favor of Plaintiff and against Defendant. (Mailed Notice) (RESTRICTED) (td, ) (Entered: 06/24/2013) 

06/19/2013 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Status hearing set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 AM. (mk) (Entered: 06/19/2013) 06/20/2013398 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Status hearing held and continued to 7/15/2013 at 9:30 a.m. Joint Status Report regarding Injunctive Relief is to be filed by 6/26/2013. Draft judgment to be submitted by 6/26/13. Hearing regarding the judgment set for 6/27/2013 at 09:30 AM. (or, ) (Entered: 06/21/2013)


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Zion said:


> 06/14/2013396 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Nunc pro tunc 6/14/2013: Jury deliberations concluded. Verdict returned in open court. A judgment will not be entered at this time pending further discussions regarding the form of the judgment given the complexity of the verdict form. The deadline for filing motions pursuant to Rules 50 and 59 relating to the jury's verdict is 7/15/2013. A status hearing is set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 a.m. to address that point as well as what further proceedings will be required regarding plaintiff's request for an injunction. (mk) Modified on 6/19/2013 (or, ). (Entered: 06/19/2013) 06/14/2013399 JURY Verdict entered in favor of Plaintiff and against Defendant. (Mailed Notice) (RESTRICTED) (td, ) (Entered: 06/24/2013) 06/19/2013397 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Status hearing set for 6/20/2013 at 9:30 AM. (mk) (Entered: 06/19/2013) 06/20/2013398 MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly:Status hearing held and continued to 7/15/2013 at 9:30 a.m. Joint Status Report regarding Injunctive Relief is to be filed by 6/26/2013. Draft judgment to be submitted by 6/26/13. Hearing regarding the judgment set for 6/27/2013 at 09:30 AM. (or, ) (Entered: 06/21/2013)


Is there a version of that available in English or would someone like to translate?


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> Is there a version of that available in English or would someone like to translate?


Sorry about that, it pasted fine when I put it in originally. I've fixed it now.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

Zion said:


> Sorry about that, it pasted fine when I put it in originally. I've fixed it now.


He means what does it all mean?


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

normtheunsavoury said:


> Is there a version of that available in English or would someone like to translate?


Assuming US terms are broadly analogous with UK:

The judgement was too complex to be given at the end of the trial and will be released later (currently by 15 July 2013).

Each side has to submit a report to the court by 26 June 2013 setting out anything they want the other side to stop doing, and whether they are/will stop doing what the other side wants them to stop doing. As a hypothetical example, GW want CHS to stop using a Helbrute for comparison shots, and CHS have to say whether they will/have already stopped using it and if not why they feel the judgement does not prevent them from using it.


----------



## Sethis

So verdict is in favour of GW, but the actual result of that verdict is currently unknown?


----------



## Zion

Sethis said:


> So verdict is in favour of GW, but the actual result of that verdict is currently unknown?


Specifics of the Verdict are currently not available at this time. That said we're mainly waiting on the Final Judgement in which the court will rule specific things, make it all nice and reference-able for future cases, ect.

The court can also levy additional charges (such as court fees) on either side as well.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Cheers Dave, that makes things easier to understand.

So it wasn't quite the resounding victory CHS's lawyers tried to claim then?


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> Cheers Dave, that makes things easier to understand.
> 
> So it wasn't quite the resounding victory CHS's lawyers tried to claim then?


Well of course not. That was a spun press release that failed to mention the damages awarded GW or the things they lost on.


----------



## maddermax

normtheunsavoury said:


> Cheers Dave, that makes things easier to understand.
> 
> So it wasn't quite the resounding victory CHS's lawyers tried to claim then?


Chapterhouse won 2/3rds of the contested points, including important ones for 3rd party bits producers. The parts they lost on, the Doomseer, Tourturess, Shrike wings, possibly other items and some of the terms they were using, count as a verdict for the plaintiff (GW). Had GW won on a single point, and received damages for it, the verdict would have been for the plaintiff.

So basically, it was a mixed ruling, which it was almost certainly going to be from the start. It was a victory for CHS in the fact that their business model has been legitimized and the damages won't destroy them as a business, which was what GW wanted, but certainly not a complete victory.


----------



## maddermax

From Dakka Dakka's Czzak:



czakk 355433 5784699 null said:


> New filings, still reading them. Draft judgments from both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The parties respectfully submit the following joint status report in connection with the
> Court’s request that the parties settle a judgment herein to reflect the jury verdict – prior to entry of
> final judgment with injunctive relief. Games Workshop submits that the Court should enter the
> judgment attached as Exhibit A. Chapterhouse submits that the Court should enter the judgment
> attached as Exhibit B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Main
> 
> GW Proposed Judgement
> 
> CHS Proposed Judgement
> 
> Now we have a list of copyrights / trademarks that were infringed and what was fair use.
> 
> First thing I noticed, there is going to be a fight over costs..
Click to expand...

I'm just going through the lists now.

Edit:

Found this bit interesting:



> Although Chapterhouse agrees that costs may be awarded under Rule 54(d) to the prevailing party, Chapterhouse disputes that Games Workshop is the “prevailing party” in this case or that Games Workshop obtained more “substantial relief” than Chapterhouse. Games Workshop brought 160 copyright claims against Chapterhouse and alleged trademark infringement of 125 alleged trademarks. After extensive litigation, Chapterhouse had prevailed on many of Games Workshop’s claims even before trial began. Under Rule 54(d), “[w]here there is a dismissal of an action, even where such dismissal is voluntary and without prejudice, the defendant is the prevailing party.” First Commodity Traders, Inc. v. Heinold Comoddities, Inc., 766 F.2d 1007, 1015 (7th Cir. 1985) quoting 6 J. Moore, W. Taggart & J. Wicker, Moore's Federal Practice ¶ 54.70[4] (2d ed. 1985).
> 
> At trial, Chapterhouse won on the majority of claims. And although the jury awarded $25,000 to Games Workshop, that was a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of dollars Games Workshop had initially sought. Far from showing it prevailed, the fact that Games Workshop was forced to make a demand for that small amount after years of litigation confirms it did not prevail. If it were otherwise, any plaintiff could simply change its damages request to an arbitrary small amount at trial just to call themselves a prevailing party.


So, basically CHS is saying that because it won on most of the claims, it is the prevailling party, while GW is arguing that because it won on some claims it is the prevailing party.

I also find it funny that GW doesn't want it in the judgement that it was sanctioned for hiding evidence in discovery.


----------



## Jacobite

maddermax said:


> I also find it funny that GW doesn't want it in the judgement that it was sanctioned for hiding evidence in discovery.


Reeeaaalllllly? I'd love to see a link to that bit!


----------



## maddermax

Jacobite said:


> Reeeaaalllllly? I'd love to see a link to that bit!


It's in the main bit, GW aruges it would clutter up the ruling, CHS says it's a part of the wider judgement. The second paragraph of the CHS proposal is all it is, not the details, talking about how GW owes Winston and Strawn (CHS lawyers) $1039 because of sanctions. I think we talked about why the were sanctioned a few pages back, pretending they hadn't been rejected by the copyright office in relation to the shoulderpads. The judge was exceedingly light on them, only fining them the costs of Winston and Strawns investigation and time. Last time Moskin (GW's lead lawyer) got hit for doing similar things, he had a $10,000 fine.


----------



## maddermax

The full list.



> *
> 3. Chapterhouse has been found to infringe Games Workshop’s copyrights with respect to the following forty-nine products (product numbers refer to numbering in Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits 1020 and 1021): *
> 
> *
> Selected Shoulder pads: *
> “Terminator pad for Exorcist Space Marine,”
> “Power Armour Pad for Exorcist,”
> one of the “Sawblade Shoulder Pad & Jewel” pads,
> “Shoulder Pad for Serpent or Iron Snakes – Terminator,”
> “Shoulder Pad for Serpent or Iron Snakes – Tactical,”
> “Shoulder Pad w/ skull and flames - tactical”,
> “Shoulder Pad w/ Studs and Skull for 28mm marine - Tactical”,
> “Shoulder Pads for Chalice or Soul Drinker – Tactical,”
> “Shoulder Pads for Chalice or Soul Drinker – Terminator,”
> “Hammer of Dorn Power Armor Pad,”
> “Hammer of Dorn Terminator Pad,”
> “Power Armor Shoulder Pad for Scythes of the Emperor,”
> “Scythes of the Emperor Terminator Shoulder Pad” (Products 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, 149, 150, 153, 154);
> Assault Shoulder pad with number VII and VIII, Devastator marine shoulder pad with IX and X, Tactical shoulder pad with I, II, III, IV, IV, and VI (Products 46, 47, 51, 52, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62);
> Crested shoulder pad (Product 49);
> “Generic Power Armour Shoulder Pad” and “Smooth Shoulder Pad for 28mm tactical – marine” (Products 54, 55);
> “Banded Tech Pad” and “Banded Armor Pad” compatible with power armor and terminator armor (Products 68, 73, 74);
> Studded rimmed shoulder pad MKV, MK I Heresy Era for 28 mm Marines “Thunder Armor” shoulder pad,
> studded power armor pad for MK 5 (Products 75, 78, 80); Tervigon conversion kit (Product 37);
> 
> 
> Skull or Chaplain Head or Bit for Power Armor (product 3);
> Heresy Era Jump Pack (Product 76);
> Spikey heresy heads (Product 79);
> Wolf Rhino Conversion Kit #1 and Wolf Rhino Conversion Kit #2 (Products 82, 104);
> Iron Snake conversion kit for Rhino (Product 106);
> Doomseer Iyanar Duanna (Product 108);
> Gun Halberd (Product 112);
> Conversion Beamer Servo Harness (Product 113);
> Armana'serq Scorpion Warrior Princess (Product 123);
> Open- Fisted power claws and Closed-Fisted power claws (Products 132, 133);
> TRU Scale Knights Praetorius “Order of the Empress’s Tears” Conversion Kit and TRU-Scale Knight Praetorius Conversion Kit (Products 142, 143);
> “Shrike Conversion Kit” (Product 159); Dark Elf Arch Torturess (Product 160).
> 
> *
> 4. Chapterhouse has been found to infringe the following thirty-eight trademarks of Games Workshop: *
> 
> (i) Adeptus Mechanicus
> (ii) Flesh Tearers
> (iii) Genestealer
> (iv) Howling Griffons
> (v) Imperial Guard
> (vi) Iron Hands
> (vii) Land Raider
> (viii) Predator
> (ix) Rhino
> (x) Salamander
> (xi) Soul Drinker
> (xii) Stormraven
> (xiii) Storm Shield
> (xiv) Techmarine
> (xv) Thousand Sons
> (xvi) Thunder Hammer
> (xvii) Tyrant
> (xviii) Tyranid
> (xix) Flesh Tearer Icon
> (xx) Imperial Fist Icon
> (xxi) Legion of the Damned Icon
> (xxii) Space Marine Tactical Squad Icon
> (xxiii) Space Marine Devastator Squad Icon
> (xxiv) Space Marine Assault Squad Icon
> (xxv) Iron Hands Icon (xxvi) Space Wolves Icon
> (xxvii) Salamanders Icon (xxviii) Blood Ravens
> (xxix) Exorcist
> (xxx) Jump Pack
> (xxxi) Mycetic Spore
> (xxxii) Tervigon
> (xxxiii) Ymgarl
> (xxxiv) Exorcist Icon
> (xxxv) Iron Snakes Icon
> (xxxvi) Soul Drinkers Icon
> (xxxvii) Scythes of the Emperor Icon
> (xxxviii) Hammer of Dorn Icon.
> 
> *
> 5. Chapterhouse has been found not to infringe Games Workshop’s copyrights with respect to the following forty-three products (product numbers refer to numbering in Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits 1020 and 1021):*
> 
> Eagle Thunder Hammer (product 1),
> Shoulder pad with shield and studs (product 2),
> Shoulder pads for blood eagle (products 4-5),
> Shoulder pads for celestial lions (products 6- 7),
> Terminator Shoulder pad for flesh tearers (product 13),
> Shoulder pad star fox or wolf (products 21-22),
> Dragon or salamander power fist (product 27),
> Dragon or salamander thunder hammer (product 31),
> Combi-weapons magnetic kit (product 34),
> Conversion kit for farseer jetbike rider (product 35),
> Conversion kit for warlock jetbike rider (product 36),
> Ymgarl model heads (product 43),
> Super Heavy Assault Walker (product 45),
> Salamanders or Dragon drop pod door (product 63),
> Salamander Dragon skull shoulder pads (products 64-65),
> Salamander or Dragon head bit (product 67),
> Storm combat space tech shield for wolves (product 83),
> “Heresy” armoured drop pod door (product 87),
> Armored door and kit for rhino tank (product 90),
> mycetic spore (product 95),
> Shoulder pads for blood ravens (products 101-102),
> Tru-scale conversion kit for rhino (product 111),
> Death angel doors for land raider (product 114),
> SCAR lasguns (product 117),
> Javelin imperial jetbike (product 121),
> Hotshot lasgun pack (product 128),
> Iconoclast conversion kit for land raider (product 129),
> Magnetic turret kit for storm raven (product 130),
> Pilum imperial attack jetbike (product 134),
> Alternative heads for Tau (products 135-136),
> Heresy-era shoulder pads (products 140-141),
> Lizard-ogre characters (products 144-145),
> Iron Hand Nut shoulder pads (products 146-147),
> Hotshot lasgun pack (product 158).
> 
> *6. Chapterhouse’s use of Games Workshop’s copyrights with respect to the following twenty-four products was found to be a fair use and therefore not infringing (product numbers refer to numbering in Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits 1020 and 1021): *
> 
> Howling Griffon style Shoulder Pad (product 14),
> Assault Shoulder pad plain (product 48),
> Devastator shoulder pad (product 50),
> First squad or I Shoulder pad (product 53),
> Tactical shoulder pad (product 56),
> Salamander dragon hammer (product 66),
> Cog shoulder pad (product 69),
> Dragon or Salamander kit for rhino (product 94),
> Scarab shoulder pad (product 97),
> Starburst shoulder pad (product 98),
> Shoulder pad for mantis warriors (products 99-100),
> Dragon door kit for rhino (product 103),
> Magnetic turret kit for razorback (product 131),
> Heresy-era shoulder pads (products 137-139),
> Winged skull power armor pad (product 148),
> V Power shoulder pads (products 151-152),
> Scaled shoulder pads (products 155-157),
> Heraldic knight shoulder pads (product 163).
> 
> 
> *7. Chapterhouse has been found not to infringe the following twenty-eight trademarks of Games Workshop*:
> 
> (i) Warhammer logo,
> (ii) Games Workshop logo
> (Aquila or Two-Headed Eagle),
> (iii) Alpha Legion,
> (iv) Carnifex,
> (v) Chaos Space Marines,
> (vi) Chimera,
> vii) Death Watch,
> (viii) Devastator Space Marine,
> (ix) Dreadnought,
> (x) Eldar Farseer,
> (xi) Eldar Jet Bike,
> (xii) Eldar Warlock,
> (xiii) Heresy Armour,
> (xiv) High Elf,
> (xv) Horus Heresy,
> (xvi) Land Speeder,
> (xvii) Mk V Armour,
> (xviii) Striking Scorpion,
> (xix) Termagants,
> (xx) Blood Angels Icon,
> (xxi) Tau Empire Icon,
> (xxii) Assault Cannon,
> (xxiii) Iconoclast,
> (xxiv) Power Claw,
> (xxv) Jetbike,
> (xxvi) Tyranid Bonesword,
> (xxvii) Tyranid Laswhip, and
> (xxviii) Howling Griffons Icon.
> 
> 
> *8. Chapterhouse’s use of Games Workshop’s trademarks with respect to the following twenty-six trademarks was found to be a fair use and therefore not infringing: *
> 
> (i) Warhammer,
> (ii) 40k,
> (iii) 40,000,
> (iv) Eldar,
> (v) Dark Angels,
> (vi) Space Marine,
> (vii) Tau,
> (viii) Assault Space Marine,
> (ix) Black Templars,
> (x) Blood Angels,
> (xi) Crimson Fists,
> (xii) Drop Pod,
> (xiii) Gaunt,
> (xiv) Heavy Bolter,
> (xv) Hive Tyrant,
> (xvi) Imperial Fists,
> (xvii) Inquisition,
> (xviii) Legion of the Damned,
> (xix) Librarian,
> (xx) Space Wolves,
> (xxi) Tactical Space Marine,
> (xxii) Terminator,
> (xxiii) Tyranid Warrior,
> (xxiv) Heavy Flamer,
> (xxv) Lascannon,
> (xxvi) Lightning Claw.
> 
> *9. The Court previously found that Chapterhouse did not infringe Games Workshop copyrights in connection with the following thirty-four products: *
> 
> Shoulder Pads for Deathwatch or Dark Angels – Tactical (Product 8);
> Shoulder Pads for Imperial Fist (Tactical and Terminator) (Products 15–16);
> Dragon or Salamander Shoulder Pad (Tactical and Terminator) (Products 25–26);
> Dragon or Salamander Storm Shield (Diamond Scales, Smooth No Skull and Smooth w/Skull) (Products 28–30);
> Salamander, Alpha Legion or Dragon Conversion Kit for Land Raider (Product 32);
> Vehicle Icon for Flesh Tearers (Product 33);
> Lashwhips (Tyrant Size and Warrior Size) (Products 39-39);
> Bonesword Arms for Tryanids (Tyrant and Warrior) (Products 40-41);
> Xenomorph 28mm Head Bits for Tyranid (Product 42);
> Female Heads Imperial Guard 28mm (Product 44);
> Shield for Iron Hands (Product 70);
> Shoulder Pad for Iron Hands (Power Armor and Terminator) (Products 71-72);
> Celtic Wolf Shield for Space Wolves (Product 81);
> Celtic Storm or Combat Shield (Product 84);
> Generic Hammer 2 (Product 85);
> Imperial or Eagle Storm Shield (Product 86);
> Armoured Predator Armour Kit (Side and Center) (Products 88–89);
> Brazier (Dragon/Serpent [2 pieces] and Eagle [2 pieces]) (Products 91-92);
> Mark I Rhino Conversion Kit (Product 93);
> Pre-Heresy Scarab Shoulder Pads – Thousand Sons – Terminator (Product 96),
> Shoulder Pad for Mantis Warriors Marines (Power Armor and Terminator) (Products 99-100);
> Tactical Rhino Doors with Skulls Kit (Product 105);
> 28 mm Spartan Heads (Product 107);
> Rapid Response Wheeled Kit for Chimera (aka Imperial Guards Chimera APC Kit) (Product 109).
> 
> *
> 10. Consent judgment was entered against Games Workshop in this matter and Chapterhouse was found to not infringe Games Workshop copyrights with respect to the following eight products: *
> 
> Masked heresy heads (product 77),
> Proposed expansion product (product 110),
> 
> SCAR and sniper rifle (product 115),
> SCAR drum magazine (product 116),
> Death angel storm shield (product 122),
> Abbithian Banshees guardswoman 28mm (product 124),
> Thunderstrike missile rack (product 161),
> Large ammo belts for heavy weapons (product 162).
> 
> *
> 11. Consent judgment was entered against Games Workshop in this matter and *
> *
> Chapterhouse was found to not infringe Games Workshop trademarks with respect to the following twenty-three marks: *
> 
> (i) Adeptus Mechanicus Cog Icon,
> (ii) Black Templars Icon,
> (iii) Blood Ravens Icon,
> (iv) Celestial Lions Icon,
> (v) Chaos Space Marines Eight-Pointed Star Icon,
> (vi) Chaplain,
> (vii) Dark Angels Winged Sword Icon,
> (viii) Dark Elf,
> (ix) Empire,
> (x) Heavy Weapon,
> (xi) Hellhound,
> (xii) Howling Banshee,
> (xiii) Mantis Warrior Icon,
> (xiv) Plasma Cannon,
> (xv) Thousand Sons Icon,
> (xvi) Ultramarine Icon,
> (xvii) Cadian,
> (xviii) Eldar Seer Council,
> (xix) Games Workshop,
> (xx) GW,
> (xxi) Melta,
> (xxii) MK II Armour,
> (xxiii) Plasma,


Edit: trying to make it a bit more readable.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I see that the courts have now confirmed that GW do in fact hold a valid trademark for "Space Marine"


----------



## GrizBe

Hold it.. that judgements fubar.... At one point is says that CH did infringe on GW trademarks, such as Salamanders stuff, then later it says that they did not infringe on said same product? WTF?

Also... CH did not infringe on using the GW logo and the Warhammer logo? How the fuck can you not infringe on using another companies registered logo?

Also, I'll point out, a lot of the stuff CH did win on, is actually duplicated several times, meaning, overall, they actually won on much less then they're claiming, since IE, 4 of the claims they won, are of the exact same product, meaning its probably a quarter of what they're claiming. 


Seriously, reading through that, its pretty clear that the jury didn't give a crap about the case since they've ruled both ways on several things.... How can CH infringe on Salamanders, then NOT infringe on Salamanders doors? that's just stupid.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I think it depends on HOW the things were used.
If you say "this is mine" then you are infringing, if you say "This is my stuff that goes with GW's XYZ Stuff" then you are not.
From what I see a lot of the judgements weren't along the lines of "GW doesn't have a trademark to that item" but more along the lines of "CHS' manner in which they used those marks was not unfair."

Like you say there do seem to be a lot of double ups on the things that CHS "won"


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

I am actually quite surprised at some of those judgements as they seem to contradict one another on some level “IMO” I could be totally wrong in my interpretation though, 

For example CHS has been found to infringe on the following



maddermax said:


> 4. Chapterhouse has been found to infringe the following thirty-eight trademarks of Games Workshop:
> (i) Adeptus Mechanicus
> (ii) Flesh Tearers
> (iii) Genestealer
> (iv) Howling Griffons


So some chapter/ model names etc, but on the other hand they have been found not to infringe on the same type of material later



maddermax said:


> 7. Chapterhouse has been found not to infringe the following twenty-eight trademarks of Games Workshop:
> 
> (iii) Alpha Legion,
> (iv) Carnifex,
> (xviii) Striking Scorpion,
> (xix) Termagants,


So why would they rule a difference between the two?
from my point of view why would a Genestealer be more tradmarkable (just made up a new word, think I might Trademark that :laugh than Carnifex or Termagants

Or Howling Griffons than Alpha Legion for that matter.


----------



## bitsandkits

Looks like the jury picked what infringed and what didnt by rolling a D6 for each item, can GW appeal the case based on the jury being fucktarded?


----------



## chapterhousestudios

The jury deliberated for almost 2.5 days, I doubt they made decisions randomly. Though I am confused on how they ruled on some things like the Shrike kit on copyright vs the GW Warrior wings considering they look very different and the Shrike kit has multiple other components.

Basically I am saying, the CHS team was confused on some of the rulings as well. This can originate from the courts rulings as well as the verdict sheet that the courts decided to give the jury; many reasons for appealing.

As far as something like the GW Icon, GW tried to say CHS had infringed on it and brought that subject into the case. This does not mean there was an actual case of actual infringement (they threw a lot of junk in there). It just means the jury saw no case of infringement, regardless if there was an actual comparison of it. (FWIW GW tried to say the CHS logo infringed on the WH40K logo, the jury did not buy into that one).


----------



## GrizBe

bitsandkits said:


> Looks like the jury picked what infringed and what didnt by rolling a D6 for each item, can GW appeal the case based on the jury being fucktarded?


Hence my points before about the rulings being fubar. As Stephen said, how is Howling Griffons more tradmarkable then Carnifex?

Whoever the jury was in this case, they clearly didn't take it seriously and I can defiantely see GW appealing and CH loosing even more.... 

Looking at all their double ups, its more like GW won 2/3 of their unique claims while CH only won a third.. massive loss to them.


----------



## Madden

Oh good it Wasn't just me then. I read the list and did a double take half of what Chs "won" is On the lost list, without being a legal person I'd say GW has good grounds for apeal and are the winners.

Also who Pays for the appeals would Chs still get pro Bono.


----------



## Djinn24

How the fuck cab someone be found to infringe on a product that was never made. I thought it was made clear easier that concept art and images was not enough to place hold for a model or component ie Soul Drinker shoulder pads.


----------



## GrizBe

Madden said:


> Also who Pays for the appeals would Chs still get pro Bono.


I'm not sure how it works in the US... I'd think though after loosing this case, CH lawyers wouldn't want to go pro bono again when they stand to loose even more.




djinn24 said:


> How the fuck cab someone be found to infringe on a product that was never made. I thought it was made clear easier that concept art and images was not enough to place hold for a model or component ie Soul Drinker shoulder pads.


It'd come under intellectual property laws which you can just have concept art for etc to cover it.


----------



## maddermax

GrizBe said:


> I'm not sure how it works in the US... I'd think though after loosing this case, CH lawyers wouldn't want to go pro bono again when they stand to loose even more.


CHS already said that they are working on appealing some points. No doubt GW are as well.

Also, they didn't 'loose', nor lose, but they didn't win either. It was a mixed verdict.



Madden said:


> Oh good it Wasn't just me then. I read the list and did a double take half of what Chs "won" is On the lost list, without being a legal person I'd say GW has good grounds for apeal and are the winners.
> 
> Also who Pays for the appeals would Chs still get pro Bono.


Some of the things were split into two parts. The name 'Mycetic spore', for instance, is a claimed trademark of GW, and chapterhouse was found to have infringed upon that. Chapterhouse's model was not found to have infringed upon GWs copyright, which (If I'm understanding it correctly) means the model is fine. So one model, two different outcomes.


----------



## chapterhousestudios

djinn24 said:


> How the fuck cab someone be found to infringe on a product that was never made. I thought it was made clear easier that concept art and images was not enough to place hold for a model or component ie Soul Drinker shoulder pads.


That is one of the driving forces in the appeal... GW didnt even claim copyright on the chalice icon. The claimed its a Trademark. In order to have a Trademark you must use that item to identify a _product that was sold in commerce_. GW claimed because it was part of the illustration of a space marine on the cover of the book they had done that.

Does that mean GW has a trademark on the gun in that picture, or a skull in the picture, or how about that lantern in the corner of the picture... all because it was in a book or on the cover of a book?


----------



## GrizBe

chapterhousestudios said:


> Does that mean GW has a trademark on the gun in that picture, or a skull in the picture, or how about that lantern in the corner of the picture... all because it was in a book or on the cover of a book?


Actually yes. Its part of published material that has been produced by GW.... Anyone willing to recreate a replica of said items is infringing copyright...

Same principle as for instance... If I wanted to produce merchandise featuring one of the new Monsters University characters.... They've not been made yet, and only appeard in imagery... yet, doing so, I'm infringing the IP of the person who has designed it as I'm using it without their permission.

You've really learnt nothing from this case have you?




maddermax said:


> Also, they didn't 'loose', nor lose, but they didn't win either. It was a mixed verdict.



The jury awarded damges to GW... most of the verdict was on duplicate items in CH case whereas all of GW were unique.... like it or not, CH lost.


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> I see that the courts have now confirmed that GW do in fact hold a valid trademark for "Space Marine"


Well I hope so seeing as it's an actual registered trademark in the US.



djinn24 said:


> How the fuck cab someone be found to infringe on a product that was never made. I thought it was made clear easier that concept art and images was not enough to place hold for a model or component ie Soul Drinker shoulder pads.


There was a case (not GW mind you) where an artist was sued by a photographer for making a sculptor based directly on his photo. It was eventually ruled that the sculpture was not transformative work and that making a 3d sculpture of a 2d image was IP infringement if you didn't have the right permission.

So to follow up to this:



chapterhousestudios said:


> That is one of the driving forces in the appeal... GW didnt even claim copyright on the chalice icon. The claimed its a Trademark. In order to have a Trademark you must use that item to identify a _product that was sold in commerce_. GW claimed because it was part of the illustration of a space marine on the cover of the book they had done that.
> 
> Does that mean GW has a trademark on the gun in that picture, or a skull in the picture, or how about that lantern in the corner of the picture... all because it was in a book or on the cover of a book?


If you're making something based directly on their artwork, even if there isn't a model, it can be ruled as IP infringement as you're not making a transformative work. So yes, basically _if_ your intent is to copy the artwork to piggyback off the fact that it's well known then you'll be digging yourself into a hole legally (as I understand it at least).


----------



## Djinn24

I think I am more confused now then before as the ruling seems all over the place.


----------



## ntaw

djinn24 said:


> I think I am more confused now then before as the ruling seems all over the place.


I think that's why there will be appeals.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Zion said:


> Well I hope so seeing as it's an actual registered trademark in the US.
> .


Point is that mark has now been tested and validated in a court of law. You can trademark anything but it isn't secure until it has been tested.


----------



## stephen.w.langdon

Do we know when the appeals need to be in?

Everything seems to have gone quiet as of late


----------



## humakt

The last I heard we were still waiting for some sort of joint statement and also a judgement on costs. Plus I think that both sides are going to appeal.


----------



## chapterhousestudios

Both sides met in front of the judge this morning to get a ruling on the Jurys judgement and to see if any injunction relief would be set.

At this time, the judge has ordered both sides to meet in front of Judge Magistrate Gilbert in 2 months time to try to come to an understanding and middle-ground.

Interestingly enough, Chapterhouse had suggested this because Games Workshop does not seem able to find a middle ground where both sides can meet. Games Workshop did not agree with this decision to have a sort of arbitration in front of the judge magistrate (basically he is one level below the federal judge) and when the court brought up the idea to do so, they objected and where told to do it anyway.

So no injunctions or rulings have been put down yet (which means no fines have been ruled on as of yet), and both sides will meet in September.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Well, I'm going to continue to watch this thread with interest.

@CHS; Do you have any plans of releasing your own miniatures in the future with rules and guidelines for play -OR- are you planning to continue compatible kits for other games?


----------



## bitsandkits

this is quite interesting reading, clearly shows GW are really not giving in about this and i can understand why they have no interest in sitting down and talking about middle ground.
http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.408.0.pdf


----------



## Me-dea

I really advise everyone to read that document, that Bitsandkits linked: http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/it...0791.408.0.pdf 

You can clearly see in that document what is GW trying to do - trademarking Shoulder pads design and stopping everyone else from making shoulder pads.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

No they are seeking to stop people COPYING their shoulder pads.

"no plagiarist can excuse the wrong by showing how much of his work he did not pirate"
Is the key phrase IMO


----------



## bitsandkits

Me-dea said:


> I really advise everyone to read that document, that Bitsandkits linked: http://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/it...0791.408.0.pdf
> 
> You can clearly see in that document what is GW trying to do - trademarking Shoulder pads design and stopping everyone else from making shoulder pads.


Well to be fair to GW thats really what the case is about and i think that is GWs long term goal and likely the reason why they are not willing to compromise or meet chapterhouse half way, the document makes some extremely compelling arguments and its seems to suggest that the jury were mislead about the law certainly regarding the shoulder pad issue, which i think was brought up either here or on another site about how can some items of a certain type be infringing and then others of the same type not be when the item is clearly a shoulder pad /rhino door, if the shape and design is clearly copied from an existing GW part?

Anyway i think we havent seen the end of this case by a long way, i wouldnt be too surprised if GW were going for a mistrial on the grounds that jury clearly had no idea what it was doing/was mislead ,and try and get a do over and learn from there mistakes.

but im biased and a huge GW fan boi and clearly a puppet of the great grey plastic master.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> but im biased and a huge GW fan boi and clearly a puppet of the great grey plastic master.


Really? I thought we were an autonomous collective.


----------



## bitsandkits

Magpie_Oz said:


> Really? I thought we were an autonomous collective.


only on a tuesday:so_happy:


----------



## GrizBe

I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

GrizBe said:


> I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune?


You're fooling yourself.

We're living in a dictatorship, a self perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes are ......


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> You're fooling yourself.
> 
> We're living in a dictatorship, a self perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes are ......


 

And, on that note, we cue the movie.


----------

