# Alpha Legion vs. Thousand Sons



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

There's something about the Alpha Legion that screams Tzeentch followers. I honestly think the AL fits Tzeentch more than the TSons. How do you think these two legions match up? 

Say...
1) Alpha Legion is tasked with subduing Prospero (no Sisters of Silence support, no custodes support)

2) Current Alphas vs. Current TSons


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

1. On one hand, I want to say that the AL could easily infiltrate Prospero. The Thousand Sons seemed, to me, a very human Legion. The AL could have probably slipped in some infiltrators by posing them as scholars, remembrancers, or even refugees from another planet.

On the other hand, I want to say the Thousand Sons are very good (an understatement, I know) with their psychic powers. Finding an infiltrator could be very easy if you could mentally scan everyone entering and leaving your planet.

On the third hand (my mom says I'm beautiful), you could say the Alpha Legion also have some very talented psykers in their force. Both post-human and human. I'm sure they could rig up some sort of psychic mask, much like the one we see throughout the Eisenhorn trilogy.

The Thousand Sons are an arrogant lot, for the most part. If they couldn't find an infiltrator off-handily with their psychic powers, I'd assume they wouldn't dig all that much deeper. Not without one of the higher ups to whip them into diligence.

One way or another, I'd guess the AL would infiltrate the very ranks of the Thousand Sons. Rather than piecemeal infiltration like we saw in _Deliverance Lost_, maybe the replacement of whole units? That would make it much easier to keep the infiltrators away from the real Thousand Sons. So long as their commanding officer gives a valid reason to keep his men away from the actual Thousand Sons, the chance of discovery drops considerably.

From there...well, stuff. Anything is possible. Maybe the planting of life-eater virus in strategic locations. Or vortex missiles. Or a myriad of interesting ways to destroy a planet or society.

Eventually, one way or another, the AL would find a way in, I think.

If all else failed, I'm sure they had a bunch of blanks stored away somewhere. I think they were prepared to fight everyone and anyone. I could imagine they'd have contingencies to fight against a force of very powerful psykers. 

2. That's just a clusterfuck and stuff. The AL fluff in modern times is everywhere. I wouldn't even know where to begin.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

If the alpha legion couldnt infiltrate that Tsons then they could always manipulate them into going to war with other enemies and just grind them until they are nothing, send them into campaigns where they are totally outnumbered, withhold their support and feed them false information regarding the enemy while the alpha legion feeds vital information to the enemy regarding when and where to strike the Tsons


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> There's something about the Alpha Legion that screams Tzeentch followers. I honestly think the AL fits Tzeentch more than the TSons. How do you think these two legions match up?
> 
> Say...
> 1) Alpha Legion is tasked with subduing Prospero (no Sisters of Silence support, no custodes support)
> ...


Hailene pretty well covered part one, as the TSons would be blithely going about their business as the infiltrators were rigging up tunneling melta-torpedoes to hit Prospero's core...

As for part two, I assume we're talking about a straight-up fight between both "current" forces? Hard to imagine, as both seem more geared towards raids and small-scale engagements than massed infantry brawls... I imagine the Alphas would rely on local cultists led by operatives and a handful of Battle Brothers, while the TSons would use cultists, summoned demonic aid, a few squads of rubrics and a handful of sorcerers...

If anything, I'd wager the local inhabitants, if any, wouldn't even know there was a war going on, unless a demonic summoning goes awry...


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I want to say the Rubric Marines alone would give them the edge over the Alpha Legion. Alot of the AL is just power hungry champions fighting amongst each other. The Thousand Sons are guided by purposes, and for all intents and purposes, their Primarch. As we say in the Recent Space Wolves novel he walmost finished off their Fortress Monastery.

Still the Alpha Legion has the numbers, and the cunning to outmanuever their opponent. It would be a very interesting match up indeed.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Now there's a thought; Magnus vs. Alpharius/Omegon...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I was of the opinion that the TSons would be hardest legion to infiltrate...but Magnus and his legion's colossal arrogance is definitely a weakness to be exploited 

Which legion do you guys think would be the hardest for the AL to infiltrate?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

MontytheMighty said:


> I was of the opinion that the TSons would be hardest legion to infiltrate...but Magnus and his legion's colossal arrogance is definitely a weakness to be exploited
> 
> Which legion do you guys think would be the hardest for the AL to infiltrate?


Ones where they would have to act completely insane, so fulgrim's legion/World eaters.
I think simply due to how different the White scars are to everyone else and their shared history and culture that is so different to everyone and integral to themselves means that infiltrating them would be difficult, i would give similar reasoning as to why the Space wolves would be a difficult target to infiltrate.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Which legion do you guys think would be the hardest for the AL to infiltrate?


The World Eaters would definitely be one. I don't know if they could fake the Nails. And even if they managed that, how could they fake the sort of berserker rage? Even when the Nails didn't bite, the World Eaters were a hyper-aggressive Legion.

I don't know if they could both fake the rage adequately AND not suffer horrendous casualties in the process.

Other tricky ones, I'd guess, would be the Night Lords.

Honestly, I would have thought the trickiest one would have been the Raven Guard. They operate so closely with one another and their MO of their tactics is pretty different from the other Legions.

I can imagine trip ups in White Scar and Space Wolves. Each Legion has lore and mannerisms ingrained deeply into each individual. It seems, at least to me, their culture is built around symbols and ideas that a foreigner couldn't readily adapt to without living in that culture.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

These discussions involving the Alpha legion are stupid. they all end in, "eventually the Alpha legion always win!" Bunch of crap.

Anyway, there are too many variables for this to work out. Although I feel with Magnus on hand, any type of infiltration would be lost. Although I'm sure an Alpha fan boy will pop up to reply, with "Yeah but the Alpha legion could use their wiley wiles on Magnus too and get him to do something dumb!" 

I like the Alpha legion too, but they aren't all that special. I like to point at Hunt for Voldorius as an example.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> "eventually the Alpha legion always win!" Bunch of crap.


It's not so much that the Alpha Legion are good (and they are) is that the fundamental situation in advantageous to an infiltrator.

If the TS are content to sit on Prospero, then it's only a matter of time before the AL is able to infiltrate their ranks. There's no way they could maintain the level of alertness to ward off an AL infiltration indefinitely.

The AL are slow, but they get the job done...eventually. There are some drawbacks and advantages to their method of war.



CJay said:


> I like to point at Hunt for Voldorius as an example.


That book was horrible from every view point. Poorly written characters. Bland villains. And the Alpha Legionnaire was so generic as a Chaos champion, it was sad. 

The author either 1. Didn't know how the AL are supposed to act and drew a random traitor Legion for his villain to be in or 2. Is bad.

If you want a post-heresy AL story, I'd suggest reading "The Long Games at Carcharias". That's much more fitting and appropriate. It's a conflict (of sorts) between the Crimson Consuls and the Alpha Legion.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Another question...which primarch, Magnus or Alpharius/Omegon, is worthier of being Tzeentch's champion? 

Magnus has sorcery/psyker powers...but that's about it. Alpharius/Omegon live and breathe subtle convoluted manipulation of events, i.e. "the long game"



Lost&Damned said:


> I think simply due to how different the White scars are to everyone else and their shared history and culture that is so different to everyone and integral to themselves


I just had a funny image of Alphas wearing yellow face and speaking with a bad Asian accent...whereupon the White Scars take offense and massacre them



> means that infiltrating them would be difficult, i would give similar reasoning as to why the Space wolves would be a difficult target to infiltrate.


On top of that, the canis helix is kinda hard to fake

The Space Wolves might simply sniff them out 



hailene said:


> The World Eaters would definitely be one. I don't know if they could fake the Nails. And even if they managed that, how could they fake the sort of berserker rage? Even when the Nails didn't bite, the World Eaters were a hyper-aggressive Legion.


Thing is...would the World Eaters be lucid enough to identify a infiltrators even if those infiltrators fail to do a great job? 

The World Eaters could probably be said to be the least perceptive legion 



> Other tricky ones, I'd guess, would be the Night Lords.


Why? Don't really see why the NL would be especially hard to infiltrate.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Which legion do you guys think would be the hardest for the AL to infiltrate?


Space Wolves or Blood Angels - Space Wolves could detect an Alpha Legionnaire quite easily, in my opinion, and I believe Sanguinius had a connection with all of his sons, and would notice the void where the Alpha Legionnaire was.

Midnight


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

CJay said:


> These discussions involving the Alpha legion are stupid. they all end in, "eventually the Alpha legion always win!" Bunch of crap.
> 
> Anyway, there are too many variables for this to work out.


Right, so you don't much care for these threads, guess that means the rest of us should follow suit and pass them by? Fuck that!

You don't care for them, don't have an answer, don't see the point in them, then why bother posting in them other than to make yourself appear as an ass?



CJay said:


> Although I feel with Magnus on hand, any type of infiltration would be lost.


Personally I would think it depends on how far into the legion you tried to infiltrate. Many primarchs, Magnus included, seemed to deal with the upper command structure of their legions more than any and all marines.

Depending on the objective, it could be possible to ignore/neutralize the threat of Magnus blowing the cover simply by avoiding him. (It would be harder than that, but you get my point.)



CJay said:


> Although I'm sure an Alpha fan boy will pop up to reply, with "Yeah but the Alpha legion could use their wiley wiles on Magnus too and get him to do something dumb!"


So does this make you a Thousand Sons fanboy or something?



CJay said:


> I like the Alpha legion too, but they aren't all that special. I like to point at Hunt for Voldorius as an example.


As hailene said before, your choosing perhaps the worst possible example. Even Bale from Dawn of War was a more subtle and manipulative Legionnaire than Voldarius (who to my knowledge sent several hundred traitor astartes and a super heavy to fight the White Scars on an open field.)


Personally I've always felt that there are three kinds of Alpha Legionnaires. The first is the normal one, barely distinguishable from any average chaos marines (because thats what they are, the grunts.) They are the ones most easily tempted by chaos, and where I would associate Voldarius from.

Then you have the elite; likely stemming from the command structure and thus very limited in number. These are the masters of cunning, who are more than willing to wait centuries to bring down a single chapter, or incite rebellion on a dozen worlds to spread Imperial strength thin in select regions.

And finally you have the above average legionnaire. More elite than normal, but not to the level of those on top. Those like the infiltrators in Deliverance Lost or The Serpent Beneath (at least I think thats the name of the short from The Primarchs.)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Then you have the elite; likely stemming from the command structure and thus very limited in number. These are the masters of cunning, who are more than willing to wait centuries to bring down a single chapter, or incite rebellion on a dozen worlds to spread Imperial strength thin in select regions.


Is it just me or are GW devaluing the Alpha Legion? Because the Red Corsairs do this but better (see the Fall of Vilmus). Alpha Legion feel like they've been reduced to the Nicol Bolas of 40k - they randomly stick their head in and yell 'This is part of our plan!' without any evidence, but nobody can really dispute it.

Midnight


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Is it just me or are GW devaluing the Alpha Legion?



When have GW ever supported them?

They are totally different to the other legions but have never really had time to shine in books or TT

They had a brief surge in 3.5 when infiltrating everything was nasty, then people went iron warriors for extra heavy.

They have been the token bad guys in 3 of the DoW games. Token legion as they could have been from anywhere. In retribution it was never explained how they got there they just sort of appeared. I thought it was a graphical glitch but no seems legit. THe AL in DoW1 and Soulstorm were not well written as AL, though slightly better in the main game. The only character that has come close to an alpha legion was Sindri, but seriously he could have been any sorceror, inc a thousand son. And in all honesty I could never imagine a narcissist like Sindri referring to himself as Alparius

Give FW their due with Arkos the faithless, as they managed to actually do some infiltrating, but then never had an escape plan. As Gorguts would say "always have your tunnels dug in ready". but then he was the smartest of boss 

Their appearance in the HH series is their first bit of real time in the sun and lets be honest most of legion they were not in it and they have barely been in any others. The problem is they just seem to be the Spanish inquisition style character that no-one (other than the reader because some writers are so poor at trying to keep a secret from a reader its painful) expects.

To really do AL justice GW either need an expert writer (I doubt any of the current authors could pull it off) or change the way they write the HH fiction for them to be a lot dryer and grittier


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Why? Don't really see why the NL would be especially hard to infiltrate.


They, like the Space Wolves and White Scars, have an extremely complicated society based on symbols and mannerisms very different from the rest of the Imperium.

Their language is also notably difficult and flowery. Idiomatic in the extreme. We see a Dark Angel attempting to speak it, but even with a Space Marines endemic memory, is accent is absolutely horrible.

Also, at least from _Void Stalker_, the exact sense of cruelty and terror isn't something readily found or created. It's something cultivated in the upbringing of an individual. I think hitting the right balance would be tricky to strike.

Just in my opinion.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Yep Alpha Legion Fan boys...I stick by my guns, Hunt for Voldy is a legit BL novel with the AL as the antagonist. Therefore, I may use it as an example of the current AL's abilities. 
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Oh btw I am not a fan of the Thousand Sons.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

CJay said:


> Yep Alpha Legion Fan boys...I stick by my guns, Hunt for Voldy is a legit BL novel with the AL as the antagonist. Therefore, I may use it as an example of the current AL's abilities.


Warrior Brood is also a legit black library novel, containing back-flipping terminators. Just because its legit does not mean it is good, or a good source.



CJay said:


> Oh btw I am not a fan of the Thousand Sons.


Yeah, sure your not..


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

hahahah really?? You don't know if they can't back flip now do you !!! In a more realistic setting it would be kind of kick ass to see a couple squads of terminators back flipping off a cliff to land midst some enemies would be tight. No form of slowing devise either, just landing like an asteroid.

Also continuing to insinuate I am a TS fan is pretty childish buddy. Never said in my post the TS would win.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> Hunt for Voldy is a legit BL novel with the AL as the antagonist.


It focuses on single Chaos Champion from the Alpha Legion. I haven't read the book in a couple years (for good reason), but is it ever stated that he was part of the original Legion?

Furthermore, how many centuries has Chaos had to change his thought process or decision making?

You can't take a post-heresy Emperor's Children and compare that to the martial perfection that they were pre-heresy. Apples and oranges.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, it's one Legion out of thousands. Furthermore, at the time Voldorius had become a Daemon Prince. Daemonic accession has profound changes, both physical and mental, on a person. 

Using Voldorius as an example of an average a pre-heresy Alpha Legion legionnaire would be crazy.



CJay said:


> Also continuing to insinuate I am a TS fan is pretty childish buddy.


Wow, really??



CJay said:


> Yep Alpha Legion Fan boys...I stick by my guns


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Terminators have done, are doing, and likely will continue to do back flips. If you have an issue with it darkreever, it has to do with you more so than the actual material.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Right, it has nothing to do with terminator being extremely heavy, even by marine standards, and is noted as being slower and less maneuverable.

No, nothing at all to do with that..

Just keep on (t)rolling elsewhere Lux, I doubt anyone wants to hear what your peddling in this thread.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Right, it has nothing to do with terminator being extremely heavy, even by marine standards, and is noted as being slower and less maneuverable.
> 
> No, nothing at all to do with that..
> 
> Just keep on (t)rolling elsewhere Lux, I doubt anyone wants to hear what your peddling in this thread.


Dark Reever, just because you do not understand the power and or abilities of back flipping does not mean terminators cannot do backflips.

It is quite simple, with their improved power from the suits, along with their Teleportation abilities they can easily do back flips.

So please, let this be about the material and not about some personal attack against the poster.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I believe Sanguinius had a connection with all of his sons, and would notice the void where the Alpha Legionnaire was.


Good point, didn't think of that. Sanguinius seems to be one of the more psychic primarchs



darkreever said:


> Personally I've always felt that there are three kinds of Alpha Legionnaires. The first is the normal one, barely distinguishable from any average chaos marines (because thats what they are, the grunts.) They are the ones most easily tempted by chaos, and where I would associate Voldarius from.
> 
> Then you have the elite; likely stemming from the command structure and thus very limited in number. These are the masters of cunning, who are more than willing to wait centuries to bring down a single chapter, or incite rebellion on a dozen worlds to spread Imperial strength thin in select regions.
> 
> And finally you have the above average legionnaire. More elite than normal, but not to the level of those on top. Those like the infiltrators in Deliverance Lost or The Serpent Beneath (at least I think thats the name of the short from The Primarchs.)


Could breakdown but I think the Legionnaires in Serpent Beneath would count as elite. I mean, Sheed Rank was one of them



MidnightSun said:


> Is it just me or are GW devaluing the Alpha Legion? Because the Red Corsairs do this but better (see the Fall of Vilmus). Alpha Legion feel like they've been reduced to the Nicol Bolas of 40k - they randomly stick their head in and yell 'This is part of our plan!' without any evidence, but nobody can really dispute it.


Not really...there's a short story about how a single Legionnaire orchestrates the destruction of an entire loyalist chapter, the Red Consuls I believe



hailene said:


> They, like the Space Wolves and White Scars, have an extremely complicated society based on symbols and mannerisms very different from the rest of the Imperium.
> 
> Their language is also notably difficult and flowery. Idiomatic in the extreme. We see a Dark Angel attempting to speak it, but even with a Space Marines endemic memory, is accent is absolutely horrible.
> 
> ...


OK, every legion has its own unique culture. I just didn't think of a the NL as a legion with an exceptionally unique culture, though I'm sure a case could be made to that effect. 

I still find the cultures of the Scars and Wolves to be more..."out there" than that of the NL, though I think NL mannerisms would definitely be harder to imitate than those of the UM or the IF.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Of all the legions, I would think the Iron Hands and Death Guard would be amongst the most difficult to infiltrate. The first for their greater use of bionics, because while that won't be terribly hard to do your use to the legion in other things flies right out the window (and because some bionics can be very unique.) And then I do believe the Death Guard are noted to take in poisons that most other legions cannot; would be very hard to pose as one of them when you can't do that.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I just didn't think of a the NL as a legion with an exceptionally unique culture, though I'm sure a case could be made to that effect.


Quick question, did you read through the Night Lords series by ADB?



darkreever said:


> e first for their greater use of bionics, because while that won't be terribly hard to do your use to the legion in other things flies right out the window (and because some bionics can be very unique.)


i don't think that'd be too hard. You can either steal, scavenge from dead/captured Iron Hands, or kill the target you're seeking to replace and use his bionics.



darkreever said:


> And then I do believe the Death Guard are noted to take in poisons that most other legions cannot


They're incredibly hardy indeed, but I think the regular tradition of drinking poison was something of an honor Mortarion bestowed upon his favored. I don't think the Death Guard rank and file went out of their way to drink poisons openly.

Though I may be wrong. The Death Guard have never been my strong suit.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

hailene said:


> i don't think that'd be too hard. You can either steal, scavenge from dead/captured Iron Hands, or kill the target you're seeking to replace and use his bionics.


I'm not sure. Plus because of the independent nature of the 10 clans it would be hard to to affect the chapter. Even if you managed to infiltrate 1 clan you still have 9 roaming free. 

Plus the Iron Hands don't have Bionics for the sake of Bionics. Plus the removal of the right hand/lower arm - can't remember which - and replaced with a bionic is an initiation ritual as it were. So presumably there is a certain procedure to it as opposed to just randomly cutting it off and replacing. And I'll be dammed if the Iron Hands can't tell a ritual applied method to cyberising limbs from a scavenged bionic. 

So I think it would be rather hard for the Alpha Legion to infiltrate the Iron Hands. Yes I do admit I'm biased in this regard but I hope I backed up my reasoning to justify despite my bias.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

darkreever said:


> And then I do believe the Death Guard are noted to take in poisons that most other legions cannot; would be very hard to pose as one of them when you can't do that.





hailene said:


> They're incredibly hardy indeed, but I think the regular tradition of drinking poison was something of an honor Mortarion bestowed upon his favored. I don't think the Death Guard rank and file went out of their way to drink poisons openly.
> 
> Though I may be wrong. The Death Guard have never been my strong suit.


I haven't yet found anything to confirm either, but recruits taken from Barbarus were highly resistant to contagions and poison, in any case (_The Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal_, pg. 127). They make great use of Phosphex, rad-weaponry, and other chemical and/or toxic weaponry, however, and while your average Space Marine might only be mildly inconvenienced by them, the Death Guard were noted as being completely unaffected (_Betrayal_, pg. 129). That in particular might be harder for the Alpha Legion to replicate or impart unto their infiltrators, but perhaps not impossible.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Loli said:


> Even if you managed to infiltrate 1 clan you still have 9 roaming free.


Did the 10 clans have that much effect pre-heresy? Those couple of glimpses we see in the HH series, to my memory, doesn't have any.

Besides, if they could infiltrate one clan, they can probably infiltrate at least several others.



Loli said:


> So presumably there is a certain procedure to it as opposed to just randomly cutting it off and replacing.


I don't recall any mention about the more mundane bionics being anything particularly out of the normal. Could you cite some sources to support your position?



Loli said:


> And I'll be dammed if the Iron Hands can't tell a ritual applied method to cyberising limbs from a scavenged bionic.


I would assume the Alpha Legion would be well-versed in Imperial bionics. It's not like an Ork stapling it on buddy.

If you could provide a source on this matter as well, that'd be great, too.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gotta say I love how so many people are going, "The TSons are so arrogant about everything they will never see it coming." The Sons were arrogant with regards to their understanding of chaos. They weren't any more arrogant than any of the other legions with regards to other things IMO.

The Thousand Sons are one of the most anal retentive legions when it comes to knowledge and details... they aren't the type to simply overlook things due to some perceived arrogance people are suggesting they have in their normal operations. And please don't use the invasion of Prospero as an example of them "overlooking" things. Magnus himself was working against his legion to make sure the surprise attack succeeded in that instance.

Also, people really aren't giving the powers of Sons, nor their particular training methods, enough credit. It would literally take a single Corvidae or Athanaean to hear or see the wrong thing, from an AL perspective, and that'd be it. And there are _thousands_ of them in the legion. Also, it seems that Thousand Sons can kinda recognise the "architecture" so to speak of how someone's mind has been trained and shaped. So they could potentially see who are true Sons of Magnus and who aren't. I can't remember off the top of my head now, but I recall instances of Ahriman recognizing the mind of a Thousand Son before. And _A Thousand Sons_ actually perfectly highlighted how useful the TSons pre-cog abilities were for rooting out hidden enemies. I think it was still mentioned that the conflict at Shrike was reduced by several months time due to the presence of the Sons and their ability to use their powers to gather info and find hidden enemy strongholds and locations.

And then there is the question of Magnus himself... he could look at one of Russ's "wolves" and pretty much trace its genetic legacy back to its creation, so if he spots an Alpha Legion operate he will see through them. I'd bet money on that.

I'm not saying the AL _can't_ infiltrate Prospero. I'm saying it would possibly be the biggest challenge they'd ever have to face. IMO their best bet to infiltrate them is through psychic human operatives. And even then, with a mostly psychic population, remaining undercover would not be easy.

Current AL vs TSons... here it depends. What kind of conflict is it? Neither of these legions prefer open warfare. Also, is it purely the Sons with Magnus, or is Ahriman and his gang included? I'd go with the Alpha Legion here purely because I'd imagine their resources would be greater. I'm willing to bet they have far greater numbers, marine for marine, and probably a large network of humans too. So unless the Sons can strike a very serious blow early, I think the resources of the Alpha Legion could slowly wear them down to the point of defeat.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Chompy Bits said:


> Gotta say I love how so many people...


Personally, I gotta say how much I 'love' that so many people can't seemingly be assed to spell out words like thousand or alpha legion. When talking about the respective legions, its as if the only way to do it is by shortening them to TSons and AL..



Chompy Bits said:


> Also, people really aren't giving the powers of Sons, nor their particular training methods, enough credit.


I agree with this very much, and it can be said of most of the legions to be honest. We know that the Alpha Legion infiltrated the Worlds Eaters (to a small degree) and the Raven Guard; but that could only have been due to the former overlooking certain details and the latter being a shattered legion with remnants who had undergone weeks of constant running and fighting after witnessing scores of their legion brothers killed.

The Thousand Sons never really came across as a legion who had attempted to make their practices and training public knowledge to the other legions, similar to the culture of the White Scars or Space Wolves.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Loli said:


> So I think it would be rather hard for the Alpha Legion to infiltrate the Iron Hands. Yes I do admit I'm biased in this regard but I hope I backed up my reasoning to justify despite my bias.


I think you make some good points

The Iron Hands' understanding and technique with regard to bionics should far surpass other legions' 



Chompy Bits said:


> Gotta say I love how so many people are going, "The TSons are so arrogant about everything they will never see it coming." The Sons were arrogant with regards to their understanding of chaos. They weren't any more arrogant than any of the other legions with regards to other things IMO.


Good point but over time arrogance tends to expand from specific to general 



> The Thousand Sons are one of the most anal retentive legions when it comes to knowledge and details... they aren't the type to simply overlook things due to some perceived arrogance people are suggesting they have in their normal operations. And please don't use the invasion of Prospero as an example of them "overlooking" things. Magnus himself was working against his legion to make sure the surprise attack succeeded in that instance.


Yes, he killed captain Uthizzar [spelling] and other TSons in the know, lowered planetary defenses and sulked in his chamber for 99% of the battle



> It would literally take a single Corvidae or Athanaean to hear or see the wrong thing, from an AL perspective, and that'd be it.


It's been ages since my reading of ATS. Can Corvidae and Athanaean mind-read? 



> Thousand Sons can kinda recognise the "architecture" so to speak of how someone's mind has been trained and shaped. So they could potentially see who are true Sons of Magnus and who aren't. I can't remember off the top of my head now, but I recall instances of Ahriman recognizing the mind of a Thousand Son before. And _A Thousand Sons_ actually perfectly highlighted how useful the TSons pre-cog abilities were for rooting out hidden enemies. I think it was still mentioned that the conflict at Shrike was reduced by several months time due to the presence of the Sons and their ability to use their powers to gather info and find hidden enemy strongholds and locations.


Good point



> And then there is the question of Magnus himself... he could look at one of Russ's "wolves" and pretty much trace its genetic legacy back to its creation, so if he spots an Alpha Legion operate he will see through them. I'd bet money on that.


Good point...again



> IMO their best bet to infiltrate them is through psychic human operatives. And even then, with a mostly psychic population, remaining undercover would not be easy.


Agreed



> Also, is it purely the Sons with Magnus, or is Ahriman and his gang included?


All Sons combined. This would mean the Sons have Daemon Primarch Magnus and Ahriman, arguably the most powerful Astartes psyker to have ever existed...whereas both AL primarchs are potentially dead



hailene said:


> Quick question, did you read through the Night Lords series by ADB?


I didn't get through all of it. I've read parts of the books in the bookstore, didn't really like them enough to buy them 

I don't see how the Night Lords are more "special" than the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Salamanders, etc.

Space Wolves and White Scars are the two "barbarian" legions who seem to be barely integrated into Imperial civilisation. Other Imperial forces barely know anything about the elusive, ever-on-the-move Scars, and the Wolves have the canis helix


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

CJay said:


> You don't know if they can't back flip now do you !!!


I cannot believe you said that. Credibility =0


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's been ages since my reading of ATS. Can Corvidae and Athanaean mind-read?


Well Corvidae can see into the future but Anthanaeans can certainly read other people's minds. It's why Magnus had to kill the Anthanean Uthizzar since he found out about the SW attack from reading his Lord's mind.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's been ages since my reading of ATS. Can Corvidae and Athanaean mind-read?


Well, Corvidae are seers and Athanaeans are telepaths. So both would be a threat to any attempts at espionage. And, like I said, the Thousand Sons had... well... thousands... of the best trained seers and telepaths in the Imperium.



MontytheMighty said:


> All Sons combined. This would mean the Sons have Daemon Primarch Magnus and Ahriman, arguably the most powerful Astartes psyker to have ever existed...whereas both AL primarchs are potentially dead


Well, if Ahriman and his Prodigal Sons are included that changes things. Ahriman himself has shown capable of being a troll of nearly Eldrad quality. Just ask the Invaders Space Marine chapter. I think it's mentioned somewhere that he has fostered various cults and networks of information himself, so I doubt the Alpha Legion would quite be able to out scheme him (but hey, not impossible). 

And if we're taking John French's recent interpretation of Ahriman and the Sons... well, the Alpha Legion is either gonna need a shitload of blanks or a shitload of bullets. French has pretty much turned Rubric Marines into chaos Necrons. BTW did anyone reading that find Ahriman spectacularly OP for someone in the condition he was in?

And, on a side note... Terminators can NOT fucking do backflips...


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

I think people in this thread have been looking at the problem through the long lense, i dont think the determining factor of who would win depends on espionage versus psychic power (of which both are profficient at both), but numbers.
the Thousand sons had about 10,000 Astartes, the Alpha legion are likely to have about over 7 times that number quite easily, so its almost assured the alpha legion would win, simply due to the fact they can endure more and deal out more damage.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, Corvidae are seers and Athanaeans are telepaths. So both would be a threat to any attempts at espionage. And, like I said, the Thousand Sons had... well... thousands... of the best trained seers and telepaths in the Imperium.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I beg to differ, Terminators have done Back flips, and quite successfully at that. Their increased power supply along with warping technology allows for them to begin the momentum with their inner hydrolics and complete it with a flash through the warp ala instant short jump teleportation.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> OK, every legion has its own unique culture. I just didn't think of a the NL as a legion with an exceptionally unique culture, though I'm sure a case could be made to that effect.


The Night Lords are one of the few Legions who seem to primarily converse in a non-Gothic language, which right off the bat makes them more 'unique' then several other Legions. Additionally there is a pretty steep layer of metaphor to the language that would be somewhat difficult to pick up. For example, "midnight clad" means what exactly? Technically it refers to their armour but its also used more loosely to refer to a war-footing and think the characters even use it to refer to a state of mind at one point.



> I still find the cultures of the Scars and Wolves to be more..."out there" than that of the NL, though I think NL mannerisms would definitely be harder to imitate than those of the UM or the IF.


You're probably right that the cultures of the Scars and Wolves are more different from the norm than the Night Lords. But an important difference between these Legion's is what happens if you manage to pull it off. While it may be somewhat more difficult to pass for a Space Wolf, if you do so you will be implicitly trusted by the others. This isn't true of the Night Lords, there is no brotherly love in that Legion and any trust is hard won. Getting into the Night Lords might not be as difficult but I think actually achieving anything from the inside would be a lot harder than with most Legions.



Loli said:


> I'm not sure. Plus because of the independent nature of the 10 clans it would be hard to to affect the chapter. Even if you managed to infiltrate 1 clan you still have 9 roaming free.


But even compromising one clan can do lots of damage to the Legion. For one thing the clans don't just operate independently, so the compromised clan will be able to affect others in combat scenarios. And of course the semi-independent nature of the clans leads to the possibility of being able to completely permeate one of them and effectively take over, which would give more control and independence than taking over a more conventional Captain would.



> And I'll be dammed if the Iron Hands can't tell a ritual applied method to cyberising limbs from a scavenged bionic.


Why? Assuming the bionic was connected correctly there really shouldn't be any difference between a ritual one and a standard one. Unless the ritual intentionally handicaps functioning (which would just be stupid) or improves functioning (which would be illogical).



Protoss119 said:


> I haven't yet found anything to confirm either, but recruits taken from Barbarus were highly resistant to contagions and poison, in any case (_The Horus Heresy, Book 1: Betrayal_, pg. 127). They make great use of Phosphex, rad-weaponry, and other chemical and/or toxic weaponry, however, and while your average Space Marine might only be mildly inconvenienced by them, the Death Guard were noted as being completely unaffected (_Betrayal_, pg. 129). That in particular might be harder for the Alpha Legion to replicate or impart unto their infiltrators, but perhaps not impossible.


This sort of biological ability should be something the Alpha Legion are capable of overcoming though, even if it comes down to just over-exposing some Legionnaires to the effect until they become more immune. Or just faking a lack of effect and either doing your own medicare or compromising an apothecary. 


Personally I'd break the Legions down into a couple levels in terms of difficulty of infiltrating.
Level One (Most Difficult): The Thousand Sons (due to their passive mind reading abilities and the special requirements of infiltrating them) and the Space Wolves (due to their dramatically different culture and hidden nature). 
Level Two (Pretty Difficult): The Night Lords (different culture, paranoid personalities), the White Scars (different culture, they could actually be moved up I just don't know much about their culture and how much they try to hide it), the Raven Guard (different tactics and behavior make them better prepared to notice infiltrators), the Iron Hands (for their bionics and different culture) and the Death Guard (for their physiological differences).
Level Three (Not Super Hard): Basically everybody else, the biggest difficulty in infiltrating some of these Legions will actually come from the Alpha Legion themselves (having to restrain their natural instincts) rather than the Legion being infiltrated (notably the World Eaters and Ultramarines).




Lux said:


> Their increased power supply along with warping technology allows for them to begin the momentum with their inner hydrolics and complete it with a flash through the warp ala instant short jump teleportation.


Of course Terminators don't have 'warping technology' nor are they capable of 'short jump teleporation' or 'warp flashes', indeed nothing in the Imperium is. And then there's the fact that what you just described is nothing like a back flip, its just teleporting backwards with a prior knee bend.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Barnster said:


> The problem is they just seem to be the Spanish inquisition style character that no-one (other than the reader because some writers are so poor at trying to keep a secret from a reader its painful) expects.
> 
> To really do AL justice GW either need an expert writer (I doubt any of the current authors could pull it off) ...


You mean like the time when most of the posters on this forum didn't even figure out that most of the scenes that purport to show Alpharius and/or Omegon in 'Legion' - to include many of the ones where Grammaticus thinks he's speaking to them - actually feature the wrong twin or a Space Marine standing in for them? :wink:

Where infiltration is concerned...

I think it really comes down to three factors:
1. How far up the chain of command the Alpha Legionnaires are trying to infilitrate.

Imitating a line battle-brother is one thing. Imitating a Captain is quite another thing. Imitating a commander of sufficient rank to have a relationship with the Primarch (however informal) is a whole different beast altogether.

2. How accessible the culture of the Legion is.

A lot of things can be gained from observation: special titles, for instance, such as the Ultramarines' Tetrarch and Honorarius; practices, such as the Night Lords painting condemned warriors' gauntlets in red. Information that is crucial to passing off as a member of a Legion, however, might not be at all accessible.

For instance, during the Great Crusade, the Dark Angels restricted certain knowledge, lore, rituals, and customs to members of specific rank and experience. All of a sudden, #2 informs #1 quite a bit, doesn't it?

3. How accessible the Legion's howeworld and its culture is.

Sure, Nostraman might be a nuanced, difficult language. Even our own linguists today, though, do a stellar job of passing off as natives. The question is, did the Alpha Legionnaires get a chance to study it at their leisure? Would Nostramo really have been that difficult a world to pay visit to? What is it about Caliban, Chemos, Olympia, Chogoris, Dorn's homeworld, Baal, Medusa, any one of the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, Barbarus, Prospero, Cthonia, Colchis, Nocturne, or Deliverance that would have made it so difficult for an Imperial representative with the proper documentation and clearances to come by and do his business?

None of those worlds was closed off, per se. Fenris is about the only one that seems to have been purposefully kept isolated by its Legion. Medusa _might_ have been one as well, but there's nothing that says so specifically. Prospero would have benefited from a large population of psykers, who might pick up on undesired surveillance. For the most part, though, an agent (or agents) of the Alpha Legion could happily have visited almost any of the Legion homeworlds and observed their cultures to his heart's content.

Taking that one level further, the Imperium had a whole ORDER dedicated to doing pretty much that with *the Legions themselves.* They were actually recording any name, interaction, custom, etc., they could for posterity. That would have been a gold mine for the Alpha Legion, even if only as a starting point.

Also, raise your hands if you think Alpharius waited until after the Horus Heresy kicked off to infiltrate the Legions and their homeworlds! :wink:


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> I cannot believe you said that. Credibility =0


And I care about your opinion?:laugh:

Anyway I think the Tsons are being undermined here. Alpha legion seem to have problems when they are the one that gets attacked.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Well Corvidae can see into the future but Anthanaeans can certainly read other people's minds. It's why Magnus had to kill the Anthanean Uthizzar since he found out about the SW attack from reading his Lord's mind.





Chompy Bits said:


> Well, Corvidae are seers and Athanaeans are telepaths. So both would be a threat to any attempts at espionage. And, like I said, the Thousand Sons had... well... thousands... of the best trained seers and telepaths in the Imperium.


To put it lightly, I believe these would a pose a problem for the Alpha Legion. 

If Uthizzar could mind-read Magnus, who certainly did not want his sons to know about the impending invasion...then yeah, it's gonna be hard for the AL to pull the wool over the TSons' eyes. 



> Well, if Ahriman and his Prodigal Sons are included that changes things. Ahriman himself has shown capable of being a troll of nearly Eldrad quality. Just ask the Invaders Space Marine chapter. I think it's mentioned somewhere that he has fostered various cults and networks of information himself, so I doubt the Alpha Legion would quite be able to out scheme him (but hey, not impossible).


This would make a great scenario actually. Who could out-scheme who? 



> French has pretty much turned Rubric Marines into chaos Necrons.


That sounds about right actually. Rubrics should be dumb (like low-level Crons) but very hard to put down



MEQinc said:


> Getting into the Night Lords might not be as difficult but I think actually achieving anything from the inside would be a lot harder than with most Legions.


I just had a thought. *What if that traitor Raven Guard is actually an AL posing as a turncoat Raven Guard?* Traitor RG is his cover. I mean, it might be easier to get in that way than to impersonate a NL. At least this way, he won't have to worry that much about conforming to NL customs and all. 

DUN DUN DUN


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> The Iron Hands' understanding and technique with regard to bionics should far surpass other legions'


I'm not sure about this, surely the Iron Warriors with their grasp of technology would be, if not equal, then certainly be close.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Would Nostramo really have been that difficult a world to pay visit to?


While there probably wouldn't be much difficulty in going to Nostramo I don't think that would equate to the culture of the Legion. The Night Lord's aren't based on Nostramin culture, they're based on Nostramin criminal culture and while there is overlap those aren't the same. I think getting an outside observer into the criminal underworld of Nostramo would be more difficult that accessing the culture of many worlds. Though you do bring up a good point about the secrecy of the Dark Angels. 

Also, though not intentionally isolated Nostramo does seem to lack a certain level of Imperial oversight, considering the speed of its backwards slide. That suggests to me that Imperial personnel wouldn't be very common or super welcome, again raising the difficulty of infiltrating the Legion.



> Taking that one level further, the Imperium had a whole ORDER dedicated to doing pretty much that with *the Legions themselves.* They were actually recording any name, interaction, custom, etc., they could for posterity. That would have been a gold mine for the Alpha Legion, even if only as a starting point.


Good point on the Remembrancer Order, can't believe that slipped my mind. Of course the use of the Remembrancers was largely voluntary and many Legions seem to have not had many, and many more of those that did carefully restricted access and heavily monitored them. Given that Night Lord ships sometimes lack the ability to illuminate the interior and they are notoriously unfriendly I doubt that there were many Remembrancers attached to the 8th. 



MontytheMighty said:


> I just had a thought. *What if that traitor Raven Guard is actually an AL posing as a turncoat Raven Guard?* Traitor RG is his cover. I mean, it might be easier to get in that way than to impersonate a NL. At least this way, he won't have to worry that much about conforming to NL customs and all.
> 
> DUN DUN DUN


Interesting, but I'd call it unlikely. Firstly, the Raven is full blown missing his tongue, something that would cut down on the usefulness of an operative. Secondly, that's a really, really risky way to infiltrate any Legion, especially the Night Lords. Notorious cruelty and paranoia do not make for a group welcoming to outsiders, let alone to defecting enemies. A situation like the Raven's ends up in the skinning pits nine times out of ten if you ask me and I don't think the Alpha Legion would be willing to waste nine marines just to get one mute guy inside. Surely infiltrating the Legion conventionally would have lower risks, even in a difficult Legion to infiltrate.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> While there probably wouldn't be much difficulty in going to Nostramo I don't think that would equate to the culture of the Legion. The Night Lord's aren't based on Nostramin culture, they're based on Nostramin criminal culture and while there is overlap those aren't the same. I think getting an outside observer into the criminal underworld of Nostramo would be more difficult that accessing the culture of many worlds.


... but hardly impossible. Several prominent examples of this sort of thing can be found in recent decades. Federal agents and members of clandestine agencies have been successful in gathering crippling amounts of intelligence on criminal organizations, manipulating them for political ends, and even infiltrating them on a long-term basis. Those were organizations - ranging from outlaw biker clubs to drug cartels - whose mentality and culture were wildly disparate from that of normal society.

So I really hesitate to put Nostramo off-limits on the basis that it's not familiar to the rest of the Imperium, or too violent, or linguistically different.



> Also, though not intentionally isolated Nostramo does seem to lack a certain level of Imperial oversight, considering the speed of its backwards slide. That suggests to me that Imperial personnel wouldn't be very common or super welcome, again raising the difficulty of infiltrating the Legion.


There's a difference between being there and not making a difference in terms of maintaining order, though... and not being there at all. Point of fact, Alpha Legion agents on Nostramo would have zero motivation to maintain the status quo and every reason to be a part of the underworld that fueled the Night Haunter's Legion.



> Good point on the Remembrancer Order, can't believe that slipped my mind.


Mind you, that's a broad example. I don't mean to imply they could provide information on just any Legion. I'm simply pointing out that there was a precedent.


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