# Are You Happy With Where 40K Is Heading?



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

On and off I've been into 40K and Warhammer since a friend first showed me a copy of Rogue Trader way back in the early 90s. 
Lots and lots has changed since then both in actual game terms and in the fluff. The Squats are gone (thank god!) the Nids, Tau and Necrons turned up. The Ultramarines became a first founding Legion, the Primarchs got names and have been fleshed out. Genestealers turned out to be shock troops instead of cunning alien cult leaders. 
All in all, in my opinion anyway, the 40K setting has lost a lot of the Grim Dark it once had, it just doesn't seem as dark any more. It could just be me.
I liked the idea of Space Marines being barely contained, blood crazed, psychotic killer monks. I'm not so keen on the space knights in shining armour they seem to be portrayed as today. 
I liked the way that chaos used to be portrayed as a dark cancer at the heart of the Imperium, cults were everywhere and cultists were sly. I'm not so keen on the modern idea of them becoming two dimensional villains "Evil, evil, Grrrrr!"
I've always been a strong supporter of the 'No good guys in 40K' way of thinking but things seem to be becoming ever more polarised, the Imperium, Tau and Eldar are the good guys, everyone else is evil. Even to the point that the Dark Eldar became necessary, that's pretty much how I've always viewed the whole of the Eldar, why do we need a distinction between the two factions? 
So, I'm not massively keen on where the fluff seems to be headed at the moment, but....


Do you like the direction the fluff in 40K is going?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I dont understand were SMs were ALL Psyko Killer Monks. WEs, SWs, sometimes BAs yeah. IFs? UMs? Even TSs? Nooo.

The Chaos in DoW Games is all stupidly potrayed as inbred retarded evil doers. In the Chaos Dexes and BL novels they're pretty sly and dark.

The Distinction for DE from CE is VERY much needed otherwise why have a distiction from CSM from SM? DE work, operate, live, and FIGHT very differently from the Craftworld types. DE are all about the quick kill and ambush, where CE are about the right tool for the right job and being 2 steps ahead. There complete polar oppsits in looks, lifestyle, and interaction. 

All that said I miss the old days when the 40k Storyline progress and new things were added and heros were born and killed. Now like stagnated water the history of 40k is always expanded upon and everything "NEW" is retcon fluff. So yeah I miss the progresivness it once had. Still Grim Dark though as most recent fluff points to the inevitable death of the Imperium.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Want some grim dark? Read a couple of Black Library novels. 

I think it is pretty grim dark in the far future, it has been, and still is. I was just here reading the short story "Fires of War", and even when it is my second time reading the story in question, it really hits my mind how terrible the 41st millenium is. Without giving away to much of the plot, I will just say that the bad guys are cultists who have cut their tongues out of their mouths, and used razor wire to stitch their mouths shut. Really terrible opposition to face, no screams or war cries, not even when they are torn apart by bolter and flames alike. That is grim dark to me. 

I cant really see the "light" side of the 41st millenium.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I haven't had too many issues with the fluff honestly. Its still a very dark and unhappy place to live in. There still IMO isnt no good guy bad guy distinction. Yeah what we know from our own moral beliefs we get an idea as who is good and who is evil but really when you read the codexes the book does somewhat tell the story from that armies perspective. Today we are finally getting a glimpse as to how the HH panned out and much of the fluff holes are getting filled in.

What I am unhappy about really is fluff bashing things such as this new Draigo char.. I can justify the BA and Necron thing but not this insanely odd fluff about darigo and was also happy with 40k when it didn't techno. wiz monkeys. 

What I feel though is that its time to start moving the fluff foward and show some progression. 

On a final note its time to just flippin tell everyone who the unknown primarchs are and why they are ousted by the imperium that way I longer have to hear people complaign anymore about them. GW its just time to finish the story and stop being lazy about it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I like for the most part the direction the 40k universe has taken. 

Of course, we still have some of those writers that like to give the Imperials a little boost of self esteem. It can get irritating. But whatever, there are plenty of novels that will wash the view point of Imperials holding their own pretty quickly.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm starting to think that the fluff is kinda going down the shit hole.

Example: I read back on some of the old Tyranid codexes and came to the conclusion that the Tyranids were a challenging race, nothing terribly over powered. Now'a'days, they seem to be this stupid over power pile of shit that is over hyped as unstoppable hungry near pseudo-genius race. This goes with the Necrons as well. Fuck, all of this fluff is starting to sound like some sort of grim-soap opera anime where all the characters have the power to blow up planets with a fart.

Its getting quiet fucking annoying. And whats with the chaos gods only have two or three variants of demons? What happened, did they ran out of ideas or something?

Also bring back chaos androids. That was the shit.

[/RANT]


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

I like the way the fluff for 40k is going, I always found a lot of the Rouge Trader stuff to be kind of lame. The idea of barely contained, psychotic warrior monks is oxy-moronic and, honestly, lame. The changes done to the Space Marines were for the better in my opinion, space knights who are members of an ancient order who sole purpose is to protect mankind from a harsh galaxy and it's own failings are just much more epic. It makes it even more epic that many Space Marine Chapters have forgotten why they were made and have become tarnished versions of the founding chapters.

Chaos on the other hand has gone down hill over time, though I feel it's because of GW refusing to move the story forward then anything else. Currently Chaos is the biggest threat to the Imperium, but not the most immediate. With Abby being stuck at Cadia and unable to move forward, more focus has been put on the threat of the Necrons, Tau, Nids, and Eldar. Hopefully a new codex will fix those fluff issues.

Then theres the matter of there being "no good guys" in 40k. Even at their worst in the RT days, SMs were still acting in the defense of humanity (when they weren't farting on each other or dancing) which is a good thing. Sure, they weren't doing it in the nicest of ways, but defending humanity would/could always be considered a good thing.

The Tau aren't good, they're lead by beings who use pheromones to influence their race and keep them inline. They are just as bad as the imperium, but hide it better.

The Eldar are "good" in the respect that they fight against Chaos. They still raid human worlds, willing sacrifice humans to attain their goals and do whatever the hell they want.

The universe is still plenty grimdark, it just doesn't stare you in the face.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I would say I'm cool with it, but I see a dark future looming overhead and it's name is "Ward" .


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I really don't like the Ultramarine and new Grey Knight bullshit. You know, theres a kiddy department in the Tonka Truck section of TOY'S R US. We don't need that bullshit here.


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## CH40S R4Pt0R (Dec 1, 2010)

chaos has deffinetly lost some of its fear factor 
they just dont seem evil, more like they are rebels of pirates
this is true on the table top aswell, they dont have any real adjatage over normal space marines and the units that do have inflated points costs and dont perform that well

im also sorry to see the space wolves not be as blood thirsty as they once were


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Chaos needs to be a bigger threat, probably the most threatening to the Imperium given its status as the "Arch-enemy". Right now Tyranids, Necrons, and even Orks are a bigger problem for mankind. Otherwise I'm mostly fine with the fluff.

I would like GW to expand on some of the "emerging alien empires that are encroaching on Imperial space" though, the latest rulebook mentioned the Reek, Dracolith, Draxian, Ulimeathic, Barghesi, and so on. Also, introduce non-Imperial human factions. But that's a bit of a different topic I guess.


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## KjellThorngaard (Oct 4, 2010)

Even though i am up-to-date on the HH novels and most of what the BL has published, I haven't bought a 'dex since 3rd Ed so if there are tons of fluff changes since then, I don't know about them. I agree about the crap with the 'nids. Really? So all powerful and consuming and smart and accelerated that you might as well not fight them? Dull and stupid. Plus, if this geno race has been cruisin' the void for so long consuming all that is there, how the crap does anything sprout back up to eat on the next go-round? And how the crap haven't they evolved to the uberbeast- something so studly nothing can harm it? Deep poo.

I like the awakening Necron stuff, though giving them Gods as playthings is another "why play/read/collect Imperium when it is a given we lose?" moment. Give the Necrons gods, fine, give me Leman Russ and let Roubourt wake up all shiny and well rested. And Ferrus with a Necron head. And Khan with Slaneeshes head on a lance. I'm just sayin'.

Grim and dark is the way it is, I like it, but I think there needs to be a little bitty hope out there somewheres, just to keep it all going.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Well, it's really a mixed bag, to be honest...for the most part, i'd say that the fiction and fluff is pretty strong, but WAY too focused on the imperials (i don't really see the draw to a stagnated, backwards, racist, and overzealous race, but i guess kids don't really look into that stuff, they just see dudes with power Armour and big guns) Unfortunately i think its only gonna remain this way, but i'd love to seem some xenos stuff, from my beloved DE, to the Tau, a little change cant hurt anybody. Oh, and on the Chaos thing, yeah they don't seem threatening at all, and the only person that has done any real justice is ADB, who makes the Night Lords into scary-ass-mothafuckas, but he is only one guy...well expect the worst, and hope for the best


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Some of the villain races need to be scaled down a little imo. 

Other than that I have no gripes.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> The Squats are gone (thank god!) the Nids, Tau and Necrons turned up.


The Nids have been part of the game since the first edition. Or at least that's what my 1990 Rogue Trader rulebook tells me.

only being a player for the past 3/4 years i can't say i miss anything,nor have any opinion about the direction it's moved in over the past two decades.

What i would like to see re-introduced are some of the RPG aspects such as rolling off for the mission/plot/sub plot rather then just the 3 standard missions provided.

Also i would like to see more warheads for the missile/grenade launchers. Also possibly for the artillery pieces. Things like smoke grenades/missiles that block LOS for a turn.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Despite the fact that 40K is more or less stuck in a perpetual state of stagnation (never going very far beyond this millenium), the fluff can't really extend much but it'd be nice to see some progress in certain parts of the galaxy like a new hive fleet entering in, or what Ghazghkull is up to now that he is no longer leading the charge in the 3rd war for armageddon, or Chaos forces trying to escape and some succeeding in breaking out of the blockade on Cadia. Basically embellish some more on the established lore we have now, even if its little by little.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

lawrence96 said:


> The Nids have been part of the game since the first edition. Or at least that's what my 1990 Rogue Trader rulebook tells me.
> 
> only being a player for the past 3/4 years i can't say i miss anything,nor have any opinion about the direction it's moved in over the past two decades.
> 
> ...


I think Norm's question relates to the lore rather than the gaming rules.

I started playing in 2nd edition and quit playing before 3rd edition. I have read each codex (well, most of them) 2nd-5th and the story driven Imperial Armour books (and loads of the novels) and I feel that it is still grim-dark. The Imperium looks good and is successful in the imperial codexes and not so good in any of the Imperial Armour books or the non-imperial codexes.

I don't think there is any major shift as to 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. We know Tau have the greater good and Dark Eldar are fairly evil, but all the others races are less clearly defined. 

Back in the day (at my flgs) we used to team up IG, SM and Eldar against Orks, Tyranids and Chaos. That doesn't mean the former grouping was good guys or anything (although I probably thought that all those years ago).


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> On and off I've been into 40K and Warhammer since a friend first showed me a copy of Rogue Trader way back in the early 90s.
> Lots and lots has changed since then both in actual game terms and in the fluff. The Squats are gone (thank god!) the Nids, Tau and Necrons turned up. The Ultramarines became a first founding Legion, the Primarchs got names and have been fleshed out. Genestealers turned out to be shock troops instead of cunning alien cult leaders.
> All in all, in my opinion anyway, the 40K setting has lost a lot of the Grim Dark it once had, it just doesn't seem as dark any more. It could just be me.
> I liked the idea of Space Marines being barely contained, blood crazed, psychotic killer monks. I'm not so keen on the space knights in shining armour they seem to be portrayed as today.
> I've always been a strong supporter of the 'No good guys in 40K' way of thinking but things seem to be becoming ever more polarised, the Imperium, Tau and Eldar are the good guys, everyone else is evil.


To be honest I don't think that much has changed (cut a few bits out of your post to save space :wink since rogue trader. The UM were always at the forefront (I always thought they were first founding, I'm pretty certain they were in the list in the compenduim/compilation), and the nids were in the list of aliens in RT too I seem to recall (along with a mad as fuck picture of a stealer).

I don't think they were portrayed as blood crazed psychotic killer monks either, they were alwasy shown as being the heroes, saviours and everyone loved them, I've found it the other way, over the years the marines have gone from hard as nails heroes, to vicious bastards with no middle ground, they're a 'you're with us or against us' force, with certain dodgy chapters amongst them (flesh tearers for example) who're total bastards. If you're alien you're for it, like space nazis. That said, they're humanities last leg to stand on.

Orks aren't evil, they're just living the dream ;-)


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I suppose part of it may be that so much has been cast in stone now, well, printed on paper but you get what I mean!
Early on it was much easier to put your own spin on things, all you really had was an outline of what the different parts of the 40k setting were. 
The more these gaps are filled in the less option you have to see things as you wanted them to be.
Much like old maps "Here Be Dragons!" is actually the the USA or Canada, great places no doubt, just not as fantastic as "Here Be Dragons!".

I think I must be getting old!


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Much like old maps "Here Be Dragons!" is actually the the USA or Canada, great places no doubt, just not as fantastic as "Here Be Dragons!".



I think that may be the nail on the head there pal


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I answered "ok but could be better". GW has a great story but all stories need to end sometime. When I first started reading 40k I would read absolutely everything available; every codex, every novel, every white dwarf article and every companion book. Now I only pick up the odd novel here and there so I have been slowly losing interest. I can still get mildly intrigued by the coming soon page on the black library site though so I'll probably keep dipping in intermittently. 

I'll likely keep picking up 40k books out of curiosity or boredom indefinitely. It's a bit like a television series that's been dragged out for so long that I no longer truly care where it’s going or when it will end but I'll watch, and likely enjoy, if I stumble across it while nothing else is on.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Rules will always cause controversy amongst players. However, in comparing a 3rd Ed codex to a newer 5th Ed (same army) some of the 5th Ed' fluff just doesn't compare to older editions. Imo, GW now seems more overtly concerned with just wowing young newcomers rather than providing a mixture of lore that will please readers of all sorts of age ranges. Makes me wish I was 12 again...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Lore isn`t likely to advance. It is kept constant because GW`s interest seems to be attracting new customers. Newbies tend to get caught up in enthusiasm and spend big, where veteran hobbyists like myself are far more reserved and patient with purchases.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

hey guys!


in general i must admit it would be nice to poss see some forward movement in the general fluff although when i met aaron dembski-bowden in belfast he said that no1 is really supposed to go past the 41st millennium (sandy mitchell apparently got into bit of trouble bout that) due to it being a bit of an anti climaz if the millenium ends and the imperium is still there.
dont know what your thoughts are on this but i kinda understand it but as i say wud like more contemproary stories

in terms of how chaos has developed i have had issues with this not just in the recent codex!
unfortunately while everyone does like bad guys and we need them i at least need on some level to empathasise with their motives at least; this to me leads to a compelling villain.

in terms of legions who have thrown their lot in with chaos fully ie word bearers i have no sympathy with them whatsoever and cannot say that i have any empathy with their motives (first heretic is a v good book but i merely comclude that the word bearers always were corrupt and weak)

the thousand sons on the other hand imo has some of the best fluff mainly because their story is reminiscent of gothic horror/tragedy; u really feel for magnus in the end.

even the world eaters have points where they are reminiscent of dr jekyll style tragedy i.e. that they are given a "drug" to unleash their potential but eventually they get lost in the resultant psychosis (sub drug for the cerebreal implants angron had installed)

and of course the new night lords novel/s (when blood reaver is finally released) have evolved chaos to the point where protagonists are stuck between a rock (the imperium) and a hard place (the chaos gods) and try to make the best of it; this morally grey area makes for v effective fluff......also see "legion" for that.

newho i hope some of this is remotely legible nevermind a valid contribution to this debate lol


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

The potential is definitely in the 40 K universe, all ingredients are present and sometimes it works, but often it does not, too often in my opinion,
advancing the setting would be nice but not too dramatic,
the main issue I have is, yes is should be dark and grim but the current setting is black and in some sense stupid, I have read the last books on necrons, dead men walking, fall of damnos and the short story in victories, and I must say that it sucks, they have no weak spot whatsover, there does not seem to be any sort of hope.
The same goes for the nids, they are just too much and the empirium is crumbling and
chaos SM are going down the drain as mentioned by Talos himself,
I like the dark and gritty stuff but if there is not a sliver of hope I pass,
the other thing that annoys me are the books, yeah the HH is cool but a milk cow, all good authors (besides swallow who I do not like) are pushed to produce the big selles, while they also have the SM books where you already know the outcome, if one looks at the books that could actually play at the forefront of the current setting those are blood reaver and noctune which comes out at the end of the year, that sucks, 
the audio book thing also sucks the price/minutes of fun ratio is really high 
all in all it is getting a little too dark for me and the advance is really crap, although I still think all the cool ingredients are in there to make it one of the coolest fantasy settings out there.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I really wish they didn't make the HH novels. I like the openess of the great crusade and other fluff, allowing players to have some freedom in either their own fluff or allowing some leenage on already established lore. However, since those novels and the other shit load, it seems like everything is set in stone, which makes it kinda not fun when you try to expand on some of the ideas.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I love the HH stories as they add a direction for modellers and to bplan and build their army around while trying to capture that look. Also the FACTS and CANNON helps alot in these Fluff Forums. However its just stagnating too long. Their is no Plots anymore its just perspective views on the same story. Would anyone read Lord of the Rings or watch Star Wars if it was all focus on one scene from everyones point of view? I feel like Im stuck in traffic for the past 3 hours listening to the same song by different artist.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I'd be happy if the Necrons wiped out the Tau, seriously they need to go the way of the Squat or get completely changed.

'hai guyz let's all be peaceful and shit. WUT? U NO WANT TO? OK DAI FRUM MAH FANZY LAZURZ'

They're too goofy I think to fit in the WH40k universe in their current form and there dosen't seem to be any logical reasoning as to why/how they went from hunting with sticks to building spaceships in such a short span of time.

They are being flaunted as being a very tech-savvy race are they not? They are rapidly creating new technologies some of which are extremely advanced seemingly more so than the tech required for long-term warp travel and yet haven't come up with the means to do so?

The Imperium at least have an excuse, they went through a dark age where they lost almost everything, and due to the size of the imperium new human tech isn't circulated and due to the archaic laws of the mechanicus it's sometimes kept hidden or outright shut down/heavily regulated, what's the Tau's excuse other than GW saying it should be this way?

They're obviously a warlike race in some aspects so the argument that their tech was devoted to mostly peaceful routes is negated. I know how they fit the role of being emerging communist China but they're just so silly and seem so out of place in the dark universe of WH40k


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tau are fine. Their rapid tech development is explained in the codex if you could be arsed to read it. As is the reason they have little warp travel tech.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Tau are fine. Their rapid tech development is explained in the codex if you could be arsed to read it. As is the reason they have little warp travel tech.


Oh but I have read it.

From the Tau Codex:

"For some *unknown *reason, technological innovation was at a more accelerated pace than would normally be expected for a newly emergent race. The Tau who had begun building the first communities quickly escalated to use fortresses and simple black powder weapons to defend their settlements from maurading tribes of plains dwellers allied with the Tau of the air."

They lacked the navigator gene humanity has but they incorporate many alien races into their society, some of which I'm quite certain have abilities similar to human navigators thus raising the question again as to what reason is there that they cannot come up methods of long-warp travel other than because GW said so?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tau pholosophy places them as _First among Equals._ Meaning they will not accept dependance on another species. And nowhere is it mentioned that any of the tau`s allies have navigator equivalent psykers. Or that they even have psychic capable allies. 

The tau`s advancements can be attributed to their short lifespans meaning their entire culture moves at an accelerated pace. Also remember they were in a state of constant competition with one another, and the world was isolated from external threats by warp storms.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Tau pholosophy places them as _First among Equals._ Meaning they will not accept dependance on another species. And nowhere is it mentioned that any of the tau`s allies have navigator equivalent psykers.


Reread my post.

Also the Tau have incorporated several things into their society from other alien races despite their belief that they're perfect. 



Serpion5 said:


> Or that they even have psychic capable allies.


It's reasonable to assume they have incorporated psychic races into their society, humans are one example, kroot can consume an eldar and develop psychic powers, and I forgot the other bug races they have embraced but I think some of them are psychic as well.

My point was that the argument that the Tau lack the navigator gene found in humanity can be offset by the fact that they have a lot of other alien races in their society that may possess something similar or most likely have ways of travelling the warp.

The whole first among equals bit dosen't mean they won't borrow or use tech from other races.

"_When the Tau encounter an alien race, they inevitably look for those qualities that may best serve the Greater Good.

As the Tau harbor an unquenchable confidence in their own manifest destiry, they are utterly determined that their own methods are the correct methods. As a consequence they tend to seek out those qualities that best compliment their own over those that run counter to them. Hence the Tau do not necessarily seek out aliens that exhibit a particular penchant for close combat for example, regarding them instead as savage and unsophisticated. They value aliens with broadly similar methods to themselves, - hence the stealthy Kroot complement the Tau's pathfinders and the Vespid work admirably alongside Crisis teams. This principle is carried out into many aspects of Tau society. Many and varied aliens are to be found working alongside their Tau overseers in population centers across the length of the empire._"

The Tau obviously want to expand their empire so aliens that can provide the tech or means to fully dive into the warp would without a doubt be valuable to them.



Serpion5 said:


> The tau`s advancements can be attributed to their short lifespans meaning their entire culture moves at an accelerated pace.


How so? With the Necrons they possibly were extremely smart from day one but it is certain that they had trillions of years to develop their tech and quite possible that they didn't make such huge tech changes in a short period of time. The same cannot be said about the newly emerged Tau .



Serpion5 said:


> Also remember they were in a state of constant competition with one another, and the world was isolated from external threats by warp storms.


Hence why they've developed tech that's very advanced, and as I've mentioned, this tech is seemingly more advanced than the tech required for deep warp travel but this is of course is debatable. 

But regardless, simply being left to themselves due to warpstorms preventing alien intrusions dosen't explain their vast techonigical leaps and these leaps convientently not including deeep-warp travel. Perhaps GW will have to explain this bit in future codexes other than the Tau are super smart but can't travel far 'just because'.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Have you read older Fluff? Xenology hints that the eldar had a hand in the tau`s development. That in itself could be all the explanation needed if it is ever confirmed at any point. 



> The whole first among equals bit dosen't mean they won't borrow or use tech from other races.
> 
> "When the Tau encounter an alien race, they inevitably look for those qualities that may best serve the Greater Good.
> 
> As the Tau harbor an unquenchable confidence in their own manifest destiry, they are utterly determined that their own methods are the correct methods. As a consequence they tend to seek out those qualities that best compliment their own over those that run counter to them. Hence the Tau do not necessarily seek out aliens that exhibit a particular penchant for close combat for example, regarding them instead as savage and unsophisticated. They value aliens with broadly similar methods to themselves, - hence the stealthy Kroot complement the Tau's pathfinders and the Vespid work admirably alongside Crisis teams. This principle is carried out into many aspects of Tau society. Many and varied aliens are to be found working alongside their Tau overseers in population centers across the length of the empire."


Re-read my post. I said _dependance,_ I am well aware that the tau incorporate races to _compliment_ their own forces. And if the tau have any navigator capable allies, then why would they be so fervently researching how to harness warp tech as detailed in the Medusa V campaign? Why not simply ask for help? 

_First Among Equals_ means that the tau will not accept a superior race. It is pretty clear they view themselves as the dominant members of the empire. Being reliant on another race would be a weakness they won`t tolerate. Remember that kroot, vespid and other allies are used as auxilleries, they are not essential for a successful tau community.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Have you read older Fluff? Xenology hints that the eldar had a hand in the tau`s development. That in itself could be all the explanation needed if it is ever confirmed at any point.


Totally random but ok. It is hinted that the Eldar boosted one portion of their society, the ethereals to mind control the masses, nothing more.

But let's assume they did have more to do with them. Are you then implying the Eldar enabled the Tau some mysterious ability to be super tech-savvy? Ok fine but for what reason? The Dark Eldar mess around with the Tau like their playthings and the Eldar don't really care about helping anyone but themselves at the moment. 

And if they did have a hand with their ability for rapid tech before their downfall, why stop at warp travel?



Serpion5 said:


> Re-read my post. I said _dependance,_ I am well aware that the tau incorporate races to _compliment_ their own forces. And if the tau have any navigator capable allies, then why would they be so fervently researching how to harness warp tech as detailed in the Medusa V campaign? Why not simply ask for help?


Simply put, the Tau have several ways of obtaining means to travel the warp (kroot obtaining navigator DNA, humans entering their society, various alien races, etc.) like the other races but in my opinion, GW doesn't let this occur to fit their stalemate/never changing WH40k scenario.



Serpion5 said:


> _First Among Equals_ means that the tau will not accept a superior race.


As the quote mentions, it means they won't embrace or seek out something they deem inferior to their beliefs. The kroot aren't counted as being part of the Tau society but simply their empire, but taking an idea from their various alien pocket communities has occurred and does not go against their belief in their superiority over the universe.



Serpion5 said:


> It is pretty clear they view themselves as the dominant members of the empire.


Because they obviously are.



Serpion5 said:


> Being reliant on another race would be a weakness they won`t tolerate. Remember that kroot, vespid and other allies are used as auxilleries, they are not essential for a successful tau community.


Taking tech from other species in their empire doesn't mean they rely on them, if that was the case then they wouldn't be using weapons from alien tech or auxiliaries who as you mentioned are not crucial for Tau society but are for their expansionist warfare.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Taking tech from other species in their empire doesn't mean they rely on them, if that was the case then they wouldn't be using weapons from alien tech or auxiliaries who as you mentioned are not crucial for Tau society but are for their expansionist warfare.


They aren't are they? Don't the kroot have their own weapons and such? They wouldn't have humans as part of their empire because of the brutal apes we/they are, and so they wouldn't use their tech.

Let's face it, their tanks and stuff are all high tech, and then they'd ask for tech from the chaps that gave you the super-sleek rhino? The smooth and racey looking Leman Russ MBT, or the stealthy Warlord titan.

Maybe they would look to the Eldar, but considering they bummed themselves over in the past, I doubt they'd consider them now. Why seek help from a failing race?

Nah, Tau are fine as is. Their introduction made my day more than the original terminator look necrons ;-)


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

2bh they will prob never tell us the exact reason as the bod's in GW probably enjoy seeing threads like this one lol!

heres an out-there idea tho; any chance they discovered either some old-one tech or an old one; fallen out of the warp maybe?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> They aren't are they? Don't the kroot have their own weapons and such? They wouldn't have humans as part of their empire because of the brutal apes we/they are, and so they wouldn't use their tech.


They do. Their Neutron Blaster for example combines Vespid tech 

But humans are part of their empire, humans mostly abandoned during the damocles war.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gue'vesa



Grins1878 said:


> Let's face it, their tanks and stuff are all high tech, and then they'd ask for tech from the chaps that gave you the super-sleek rhino? The smooth and racey looking Leman Russ MBT, or the stealthy Warlord titan.


Despite the bulkiness of Imperium technology, their mech is apparently more effective than Tau and I think it's intentionally designed to be robust and durable rather than sleek and agile, capable of operating in any conditions as opposed to Tau mech which seems quite fragile in comparison.

I'm sure human tech was quite different looking during the age of technology.



Grins1878 said:


> Maybe they would look to the Eldar, but considering they bummed themselves over in the past, I doubt they'd consider them now. Why seek help from a failing race?


The Eldar wouldn't help such a petty race, and as I've said they're focused on helping themselves and no one else.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

To be honest yes I am satisfied with a few areas of improvement needed. 

Improvement the first: Tyranids. This has just gotten ridiculous, the Tyranids have become the biggest meanest baddest bunch in the galaxy and honestly it honks me off. Plenty of Sci-Fi universes have their own version of the organic bio-wank race that beats up everybody else and shoving it into 40k and making it this powerful just doesn't seem right. It takes away from a lot of the drama and atmosphere of the setting since the huge battle for humanities soul which I always saw as integral to the setting is in the end pointless due to the whole galaxy being eaten by a bunch of cockroaches. They need to be toned down and become the random terror they once were who emerge from the void feed, then bugger off again. 

Chaos: CHAOS NEEDS SOME DIVERSITY! I'm sick and tired of everything being chaos undivided. Bring back the Nurgle Plauge fleets or the World Eaters rampaging about the place. Bring back the Emperor's Children rendering whole planets down into drugs and booze! Chaos undivided is boring and leads to the whole "I'm evil for the sake of it HAYOOOO!" mentality. I think this has been reflected in the HH novels really well. We've had two novels about how two of the cult armies turned to chaos and what do you know they're two of the best novels in the whole series.
Meanwhile we had First Heretic about the word bearers, a book I could quite happily set on fire thanks to it being about unlikeable, weak minded wussies who had a good cry for two hundred and odd pages. 

Less Tyranids more Chaos Variety fun packs!

As for the old fluff. I think a lot of it is looked at through nostalgia goggles. Most of it had a distinctly 2000AD feel to me and wasn't as strong or coherent. It smacked of a "lets do this because it would be EEEXXXTTTRRREEEEMMMEEE!" mentality. Where people had guns for faces and Space Marine Cheif Librarians were half Eldar. 

What amuses me more is that Matt Ward seems to have a panache for this kind of "EEEXXXTTTRRRREEEEMMMEEE!" thinking and people hate him for it.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I'm sorry Malus Darkblade, you're entirely right on every point. I think you should go and work for GW, you're obviously better at it than they are...

I'm not posting in fluff topics anymore, you make one jolly post for because of people being REALLY serious about a game involving super humans, aliens who can teleport, warp travel, and all manner of far-fetched stuff, in book and plastic spaceman form, and people get a titty lip on about it...

and they take the jolly post seriously... ye gads... "super-sleek rhino? The smooth and racey looking Leman Russ MBT, or the stealthy Warlord titan." - did you not see the humour? 

Where'd all the people with a sense of humour go?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Grins1878 said:


> I'm sorry Malus Darkblade, you're entirely right on every point. I think you should go and work for GW, you're obviously better at it than they are...
> 
> I'm not posting in fluff topics anymore, you make one jolly post for because of people being REALLY serious about a game involving super humans, aliens who can teleport, warp travel, and all manner of far-fetched stuff, in book and plastic spaceman form, and people get a titty lip on about it...
> 
> ...


This is the reason I find it best to take long breaks from the fluff section. Apparently fluff is serious business.

Having fun is for the weak it seems.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> This is the reason I find it best to take long breaks from the fluff section. Apparently fluff is serious business.
> 
> Having fun is for the weak it seems.


I think you're right pal!

THis section is handy as fuck to find stuff out sometimes, but holy shit, try to crack a joke and the hounds are released. Aye, I'll avoid it in future, over-serious folk are the reason I never bothered with wankseer after reading a shitload of posts.

I'll resign myself to ghosting the forum and not posting much.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

dont go; these threads need a bit of sarcasm every now and again; keepes things fresh; check out the "terminus note" thread; makes me giggle


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

lol ??????????


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

kumbaya my lord kumbaya...
and now back to the serious stuff, I agree that the nids are too powerfull and even more so for the necrons,
I also find the tau too far fetched seems like they wanted a link with the anime reading youth out there,


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> I think you're right pal!
> 
> THis section is handy as fuck to find stuff out sometimes, but holy shit, try to crack a joke and the hounds are released. Aye, I'll avoid it in future, over-serious folk are the reason I never bothered with wankseer after reading a shitload of posts.
> 
> I'll resign myself to ghosting the forum and not posting much.


:laugh: I`ll try not to be so damn serious then...



demonictalkin56 said:


> dont go; these threads need a bit of sarcasm every now and again; keepes things fresh; check out the "terminus note" thread; makes me giggle


...oh wait, that was my thread!


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

my hat off to u sir; that thread amused me v much!


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> :laugh: I`ll try not to be so damn serious then...


You people... ;-)


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

is the DOW games considered canon out of interest? if so the tau are a little bit more sinister than the happy, clappy greater good suggests?
i seem to recall upon winning the campaign in dark crusade with the tau that shortly after the tau take over and welcome the humans into the fold that the human reproduction rates drop dramatically (bear in mind this was imperial world not jus tau standing there watching a few regiments of ig look at each other awkwardly)

if so they could b devious little buggers


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> I really wish they didn't make the HH novels. I like the openess of the great crusade and other fluff, allowing players to have some freedom in either their own fluff or allowing some leenage on already established lore. However, since those novels and the other shit load, it seems like everything is set in stone, which makes it kinda not fun when you try to expand on some of the ideas.



This^

I treat HH novels as non-canon. But then again, I'm a bit of a purist.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gally912 said:


> This^
> 
> I treat HH novels as non-canon. But then again, I'm a bit of a purist.


Hang on. You can't be a purist if you go "I reject your reality and substitute my own." Since GW has declared "Hey the Horus Heresy Novels are how this shit went down" you can't just go "NO! NO! I REJECT IT! I think this happened instead!"

You are essentially a supporter of Fanon.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> I'm sorry Malus Darkblade, you're entirely right on every point. I think you should go and work for GW, you're obviously better at it than they are...
> 
> I'm not posting in fluff topics anymore, you make one jolly post for because of people being REALLY serious about a game involving super humans, aliens who can teleport, warp travel, and all manner of far-fetched stuff, in book and plastic spaceman form, and people get a titty lip on about it...
> 
> ...


He's known for being a bellend when someone has a difference of opinion. He's female-like in that when he's wrong, he get's even more defensive.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Do to my lack of extensive knowledge on none chaos races I will stick to what I know.

CSM: Need more luciferian feel, less evil space pirates.

CD: Need more HP lovecraft, HR giger less.....seriously what moron thought having daemons taunting each other before a real space incursion was a good idea. Hell they make it sound like a damn waiting room where daemons get ready to enter real space.

In general: Possession. Is handled like a retarded walrus in both books. Sometimes a daemon needs to possess a physical body (DP's), while other times they make idiotic reference to just using the body as a conduit (Why not just use a monkey or a bunch of rats in a gutter if that's the case, or a comatose body in a orphanage). 

If I had more time I would comment on more, and I assure you I have much to say after studying real world demonology (Historical), folklore, and human psychology for 6 years now. As such I got to say there is a lot of room for fleshing out of armies made up of/supported by interdimentional nightmares.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Do to my lack of extensive knowledge on none chaos races I will stick to what I know.
> 
> CSM: Need more luciferian feel, less evil space pirates.
> 
> ...


Well said my good man well said. What I never understood is why GW is so aginst the idea that daemons could just be where they are already and why they must be summoned.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> This is the reason I find it best to take long breaks from the fluff section. Apparently fluff is serious business.
> 
> Having fun is for the weak it seems.


Be right back, putting a new quote in my signature...


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

As some one who has played 2nd up to 5th edition I must say I'm not sure if there trying to keep old players happy or just keep bringing in new players? I'm tired of all the remakes of armys that are so well covered yet they are so slow to come out with new things. I really liked what they did with Mordhiem and some of the LotR stuff. Seems like 40K could use some new blood and fluff to revitalize instead of retread.


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## Primarch Tolu (Mar 27, 2011)

To answer the original poster question, No I'm not happy with the way it is going.

For me the universe is too dark and there isn't enough hope. That kind of scenario is great for table top games and the like (which I don't get involved in) but is completely unsuitable for any series of fiction that wants to take it's self seriously. 

There needs to be progression it can't just be bolter porn and xenophobic crap all the time (which i find quite a lot of the non-HH books tend to be) 

Where is the Imperium going? is it really going to just be destroyed? if it is, why should we keep reading this stuff, why should we care as lets face it, the Imperium are a bunch of intergalactic Nazis, why the hell should they survive.

The 40K stuff needs to grow up..... fast! 
They have made good strides towards this with the HH novels and although some of the explanations for why the Primarchs turned are a little tenuous (Fulgrim anyone?) I am enjoying them greatly. In my opinion the one thing that would really push the entire 40K universe along is the Emperor getting up from the golden throne, particularly if he took exception to how the Imperium has turned out (and even though he was a mean bastard why the hell wouldn't he)

It would give the writers a chance to write some truly compelling stories about the true heart of the Imperium are they going to continue down the xenophobic totalitarian path they are on, or does the Emperor realize the folly of this and try to dial this attitude back a little. If his surviving loyalist sons came back that would be awesome too...

bottom line it would mix things up a little and allow for some truly exceptional plot lines and mouth watering scenarios and some truly grown up introspection.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Primarch Tolu said:


> To answer the original poster question, No I'm not happy with the way it is going.
> 
> For me the universe is too dark and there isn't enough hope. That kind of scenario is great for table top games and the like (which I don't get involved in) but is completely unsuitable for any series of fiction that wants to take it's self seriously.
> 
> ...


Is your real name platypus? 

/forum joke


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## Primarch Tolu (Mar 27, 2011)

gally912 said:


> Is your real name platypus?
> 
> /forum joke


Yes.... very good


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## Jharek (Jan 28, 2011)

As someone new to the whole 40k universe (I've read 5 of the HH books, the Eisenhorn trilogy, and now am on the Ciaphas Cain series, and I have several of the sourcebooks), here is my assessment of the whole Chaos thing:

It's a bit silly, as someone else mentioned about the Ultramarines, it's like a toy thing. Other than there being strange creatures in the warp and all that, maybe some alien cultures that 'seem' like demons or the like, and a few societies that worship these beings in the warp, it works better as simply unorganized cults of willing participants who aren't all diseased/rotted and aren't so "grr I'm evil", as another poster said. The galaxy and the Imperium being as big as it is, there would be plenty of planets in minor states of revolt against an Emperor of any kind. During the HH they were always coming across enough alien/human offshoot cultures that provided plenty of organized resistance. Having chaos being so 'active' makes it seem like the galaxy is so much smaller and simplifies things way too much. 

I think that Chaos would work best if it is simply as I describe above and it is merely the propaganda of the Imperium that makes them into more than what they are. Let the few adventurers we read about encounter some weird and unusual stuff, and if they label it chaos so be it, but having an 'organized' force of evil is just unnecessary.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

That = truth.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Primarch Tolu said:


> To answer the original poster question, No I'm not happy with the way it is going.
> 
> For me the universe is too dark and there isn't enough hope. That kind of scenario is great for table top games and the like (which I don't get involved in) but is completely unsuitable for any series of fiction that wants to take it's self seriously.
> 
> ...


 I can agree with this on a readers stand point if 40k wasn't a table top game. But if the 40k universe is progressed too much then the table top game might lose a whole lot of things. Yes the story could use some progression but there is a point as to how far it should go. Another note is the HH thing which is now just fleshing out many aspects of the 40k universe that haven't been answered in many years. I think its great they are finally answering these questions many have had for a long time such as what caused fulgrim to fall, where did the heresy trully begin, where did the GK actually come form.


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