# Guilliman the Greatest Primarch (Spoilers)



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

(SPOILERS)


Roboute Guilliman is an interesting character, especially since he has been barely touched about in the Heresy thus far. One thing about Guilliman I have found pretty interesting is his accomplishments, including the way he established the worlds he conquered. In a way, his accomplishments were much significant than the other primarchs. I find it interesting that despite this, Guilliman seems to be favored less than a few others. And also the amount of astartes he was able to muster to compared to other legions is indeed significant.

As to whether or not the astartes amount was established within their legion and world, or whether it was taken by other legions I present my speculations.

Taking in the more realistic aspect to how the legion acquired its number, is that they were able to conquer many worlds and with all those worlds unlike other legions; used as giant recruiting centers for the Ultramarines. My question is why other legions didn't do this. Sure some of their homeworlds weren't the best recruiting center, however, when seeing the growth of the Ultramarines and their success, surely that would have inspired other legions to launch success at the same rate. 

Taking the rumor of the most recent source literally, I could see a reason why the Emperor would allow the Ultramarines to have the gene-seed from those fallen/disappeared legions. In many ways, the Ultramarines pre-heresy were the strongest legion in the Imperium. It works for the Emperor to have a checks and balances factor even with Horus as Warmaster. In the end, if indeed that was his intention, it worked out. Horus and his armies were afraid of the Ultramarines force coming to Terra's aid. Just that fact forced Horus to make some ill choices that cost him his life and the war. 

Anyway, what are all your concepts of how, why, when, and whatever made Roboute Guilliman, Ultramar, and the Ultramarines basically the greatest establishment in the Imperium.

And for all you "poster boy" haters that disagree with this, go ahead and explain why you think they weren't the greatest.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I think Roboute was a very accomplished primarch, a cocky arrogant prick, but accomplished nontheless, for the reasons you listed more or less.

I anticipate idiocy though, when the ultra-haters show up.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Because they're BLUE! $5 that is what it boils down to.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

> The Emperor was astounded to find a world so well-ordered and prosperous [Macragge], and realised at once that Roboute Guilliman was a Primarch of unsurpassed ability and vision.


pg. 13, History of the Ultramarines, 5E Space Marines Codex

Conquered more worlds than any other Primarch, left the worlds better than the Ultramarines found them, was so tactically brilliant that it frightened Horus...the more I read Guilliman's entry, the more I wonder if the Emperor just made Horus the Warmaster as a joke to tell his Custodes while working on the Imperial webway. After all, last I checked in the 5E Rulebook, Horus was his most trusted servant...

I could go on and on about how much I dislike the work of Matt Ward, but when Roboute Guilliman divides the legions into chapters to prevent any one individual from holding so much power, yet those chapters all consider Marneus Calgar to be their "spiritual liege"...



> Few Chapter Masters could contemplate refusing a request from Lord Macragge, and throughout the campaign fresh squads and companies had arrived to place themselves under Sicarius' command.


pg. 48, The Zeist Campaign, 5E Space Marine Codex

...well, I just smell a rat is all. If Guilliman meant to prevent power from being held by one individual, yet all of these other chapters willingly submit themselves to Calgar, that means Guilliman failed in the long run.

But again, I could just be speaking out of dislike for Matt Ward. I wouldn't have a problem with the Ultramarines or their various ICs if he would just stop shoving them in my face like it's the best intellectual property to be written in the history of ever.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

The primarch of the Ultramaries was, by all accounts, highly accomplished and highly efficient but he wasn't "better" than the other loyalist primarchs. He was just different. The citizens of Ultramar and its protectorate worlds are substantially better off than the citizens of most imperial worlds but the Ultramaries were, among other things, highly lucky during the Horus Heresy to have managed to avoid the worst of the fallout from that conflict. As we all know the Ultramarines were largely uninvolved in the major battles of the Heresy by design, Horus did not want to have to deal with Guilliman's tactical skills being comparable to his own. 

In fact the Ultramarines were able form their little corner of paradise as a direct result of not having to deal with the reconstruction efforts that most of the rest of the galaxy presumably must have had to do. 

Honestly look at the loyalist legions after the Heresy.

The Raven Guard and Salamanders were basically nonexistent and even now are under strength.

The Blood Angels needed to separate themselves from the population of their own world to ensure the safety of the tribes of Baal. 

The Dark Angels planet, which was admittedly no paradise planet, was little more than a memory and the Dark Angels themselves would be forever paranoid of pretty much everything. 

The White Scars were never really in the running for "best chapter" anyway, they're a great bunch but they like that whole "track one asshole down and beat him to death for having looked at us cross ten years ago and put his head on a pike" thing that really puts them out of the running. 

The Space Wolves are far too independent to be bothered with keeping and regulating an empire. 

The Imperial fists could give them a run for their money on the whole "noble paragon" schtick but the collective guilt of the chapter at not having been able to save the emperor in spite of having assaulted Horus' battle barge with him drove them a bit nutty. Which brings us to the back templars who are batshit freaking insane.

The Iron Hands have always been standoffish and the heresy seemed only to solidify their ties to the admech and make them more at odds with even their brother chapters. 

The Utramarines were bound to be more prosperous in the time following the Heresy if only because their legion was still alive to fight.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Todeswind said:


> In fact the Ultramarines were able form their little corner of paradise as a direct result of not having to deal with the reconstruction efforts that most of the rest of the galaxy presumably must have had to do.
> 
> The Utramarines were bound to be more prosperous in the time following the Heresy if only because their legion was still alive to fight.


Let us not forget that the Ultramarines certainly were at the forefront of the fighting throughout the Scouring though. Losing 90% of their Legion number in the turbulent period following the Heresy.

They may not have been heavily involved in the wars of the Horus Heresy itself, but they certainly took the leading role in the bloody wars of the Scouring to uproot the chaos forces and send them reeling into the Eye of Terror.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Let us not forget that the Ultramarines certainly were at the forefront of the fighting throughout the Scouring though. Losing 90% of their Legion number in the turbulent period following the Heresy.
> 
> They may not have been heavily involved in the wars of the Horus Heresy itself, but they certainly took the leading role in the bloody wars of the Scouring to uproot the chaos forces.


If memory serves that's 90% _post_ codex astrates reformation meaning that the Ultramarines were a chapter rather than a legion at that time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Todeswind said:


> If memory serves that's 90% _post_ codex astrates reformation meaning that the Ultramarines were a chapter rather than a legion at that time.


No, they were a Legion during the Scouring. The Codex Astartes reforms came into effect after the Scouring. Which means they lost 90% of their Legion number.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, they were a Legion during the Scouring. The Codex Astartes reforms came into effect after the Scouring. Which means they lost 90% of their Legion number.


Which is probably where the 1000 man figure came from for the individual chapter's maximum size. 

A fair point, but the other chapters were beaten to hell by the scourging as well and most of that fighting was not happening in Ultramarines territory


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Todeswind said:


> Which is probably where the 1000 man figure came from for the individual chapter's maximum size.


10% of the UM forces would number about 25000. How do we get 1000 from this?


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> 10% of the UM forces would number about 25000. How do we get 1000 from this?


10,000 * 0.10 = 1000


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

A Legion, in roman military terms is a somewhat nebulous phrase but the constant use of latin terminology and military organization from the time of the early crusades of unification Roman empire would tend to indicate that the space marine legions were an loose reference to the period of Pax Romana in which a legion would have numbered somewhere between 9-12 thousand legionaries.

Like the codex separation of the space marines the Roman Legions were likewise separated into smaller legions of between 1000 and 5000 soldiers in the later years of the empire as legitimate fears of a military takeover rose.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Only problem with using ten thousand as your base for that figure is that most of the legions, Ultramarines included, were larger pre-heresy. They might have started off at ten thousand each, but many of the legions grew in size and the Ultramarines were no exception to this.

The number of chapters they go on to create in the second founding would likely go on to support this as well. They have fourteen known descendants in the second founding, adding themselves that would mean that they were at least fifteen thousand strong


Also, there is no need for you to double or multi-post; we have an edit button so please use it in the future when you have something further to add to your post like that.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

Even if the legions doubled or even tripled in size following their creation that would leave only something in the realm of 2000-3000 marines once all was said and done.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Todeswind said:


> 10,000 * 0.10 = 1000


So, you just pulled that number out your ass because it fits what you think, not because it is actually supported by fluff? Alrighty then. No. The UM legion numbered around 250000. Not 10k.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> So, you just pulled that number out your ass because it fits what you think, not because it is actually supported by ANY fluff? Alrighty then. No. The UM legion numbered around 250000. That is two,five,zero,zero,zero..... zero. Not 10k.


And where praytell did you pull 250,000 from?

The term Legion actually has a numerical value attached to it in terms of actual size and disposition. Historically speaking a legion would have topped out at about 9-15ish thousand troops which is where I came to assume that Games Workshop was using the word in its technical military term especially considering the similarities in the division of the space marine chapters into smaller military units after a period of unrest much in the way the actual roman legions were. 

That being said my number must be low as there were 14 separate ultramarine root chapters in the second founding. Assuming that successor chapters start at full strength.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Ahab, that number was not pulled out of Todeswind's ass, that was about the size each legion began at when the crusade started (I believe.) But over time, and especially after each legion was re-united with its primarch, their numbers increased. For some legions this number swelled more than others, legions like the Ultramarines and Luna Wolves or Word Bearers are prime examples of such a thing.


As far as the Ultramarines are concerned though, Ahab is correct in that by the time the Heresy broke out they numbered more than two hundred thousand. It was yet another reason why Horus wanted Guilliman and his legion as far away from the fighting as possible, imagine how much better off the loyalists would have been if two hundred thousand more marines, led by a tactical mind the equal of Horus, stood in the way of the nine traitor legions and their collective forces?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@Tod,
The good Baron(mod), darkreever(mod), CoTE(a fluff guru), and the collected visions or some other piece of GW fiction.

@darkreever,
Ah, well then it is not total horse shit. Learn something new everyday I suppose.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> @Tod,
> The good Baron(mod), darkreever(mod), CoTE(a fluff guru), and the collected visions or some other piece of GW fiction.
> 
> @darkreever,
> Ah, well then it is not total horse shit. Learn something new everyday I suppose.


The coffee table book with all the pantings in it? It's been ages since I read that thing.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

darkreever said:


> As far as the Ultramarines are concerned though, Ahab is correct in that by the time the Heresy broke out they numbered more than two hundred thousand. It was yet another reason why Horus wanted Guilliman and his legion as far away from the fighting as possible, imagine how much better off the loyalists would have been if two hundred thousand more marines, led by a tactical mind the equal of Horus, stood in the way of the nine traitor legions and their collective forces?


I agree. If you really think what the Ultramarines were capable in the Heresy, its actually quite interesting. I think that in both _Collective Vision_, and _The First Heretic_ they numbered 250,000 marines. Thats pretty incredible considering that the next legion was the Word Bearers with 100,000. If thats true, thats like having the power of three legions. 

In a way, though three legions were pretty much whipped out in the course of things, the traitor legions were pretty much the underdog in the whole thing.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> @darkreever,
> Ah, well then it is not total horse shit. Learn something new everyday I suppose.


Well, if anything the ten thousand was the original starting number per legion. It seems that the authors for the Heresy series are starting to favour higher numbers, which would allow for greater losses and things being on a more epic scale.

So that ten thousand starting is likely now one hundred thousand; and seeing as the Ultramarines legion was noted as the largest, at nearly three times the size of an average legion, there is your two hundred fifty thousand.


Edit: I thought the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion after the Ultramarines? That would mean that they had to have, at some point, more than about one hundred fifty thousand marines in their ranks. Given the overall style and ways of the Word Bearers, I could definitely see something like that being the case.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt they would change it to that number.



I am not sure if it was first heretic, but since it could be I will put this in spoilers. Latest fluff suggests that the two lost legions numbers could have been added to the UM which would explain their ridicules size compared to the other legions.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> I doubt they would change it to that number.


Why not? If the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion than that would mean they need to be greater than legions like the Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. The Space Wolves and Iron Warriors were known for having larger numbers per wolf company and grand company (I think the range was between ten and twelve thousand) and had more than ten of these companies each. That would mean that at the most, the Word Bearers needed to have at least one hundred sixty thousand marines. (Assuming the Space Wolves had thirteen companies at twelve thousand strong, which they did not, they would have one hundred fifty-six thousand before the burning of Prospero.)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It does have spoilers on the thread. Really for that reason on _The First Heretic_. And though its kind of hard to keep track of everything ADB says



ADB mentions that he is actually surprised that many take that rumor seriously. Again, its the only evidence that supports such a notion with two astartes just talking about rumors. But if GW does decide to elaborate, look back on my theory on the first page 


edit: should we still use spoiler tags?


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

I'd simply assumed it was a tactful way to retcon the two somewhat more.... flowery of the space marine chapters.

Honestly the freaking Rainbow warriors wouldn't really fit into the more grim-dark atmosphere of 40k.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Why not? If the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion than that would mean they need to be greater than legions like the Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. The Space Wolves and Iron Warriors were known for having larger numbers per wolf company and grand company (I think the range was between ten and twelve thousand) and had more than ten of these companies each. That would mean that at the most, the Word Bearers needed to have at least one hundred sixty thousand marines. (Assuming the Space Wolves had thirteen companies at twelve thousand strong, which they did not, they would have one hundred fifty-six thousand before the burning of Prospero.)


Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?

At Crawford,
Simply another layer of protection for those who haven't read the HH series in its entirely, or at least what we have now. Think of it as doublebagging it.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?


GW has a history of using implausibly minimalistic figures for the population numbers on space marines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?


Certainly sounds more like what it is now. In _Raven Flight_ for example the Raven Guard number around 80,000. But even that is considered a bit low, I believe his legion was the second smallest legion under the Salamanders. In the start of the battle for Istvaan in _Fulgrim_ each legion appears to have sent around 40,000 marines in their initial assault. So I mean the bigger number is playing in well at least right now. The bigger numbers like the Word Bearers 100,000 and the Ultramarines 250,000 play a good role in the aspect of things because they are key components to each side right now. 

In overall things, I imagine most legions numbered around 85,000- 95,000.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well in The First Heretic the Word Bearers entire legions is present and they number 100,000. It doesn't mention them as having another 50,000 hidden away anywhere, it specifically states they are all there. And the WB's shouldn't have lost that many men till that point seeing as they hadn't conquered as many worlds as the others.

As for Guilliman not being made warmaster depsite his skills? The Warmaster needed not only to be a brilliant general in terms of tactics etc but he needed to be charasmastic, have a gravitating perosonality. From The First Heretic it looks pretty clear that Guilliman is severly lacking in these areas. And despite how good his tactical mind was, Horus, Dorn and The Lion still raked up more victories than him over the Great Crusade. I still wouldn't say hes the greatest either. 

You have Horus, the chosen son of the Emperor, excellent tactician, almost unrivaled fighter, charasmatic, loved by almost all, highest victories.

Dorn, second highest in victories, chosen to be the preatorians of Terra.

Sagnuinius. He and his legions made up the Emperos personal legion honor guard when he was still fighting.

The Lion. Tactical mind could easily rival Guillimans from what i've read, possibly the 3rd highest victory count aswell.

I'm not saying Guilliman isn't a great primarch, or bashing him. But the others all have their strengths that all put them on the same level, and he still does have his weaknesses.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Protoss119 said:


> I could go on and on about how much I dislike the work of Matt Ward, but when Roboute Guilliman divides the legions into chapters to prevent any one individual from holding so much power, yet those chapters all consider Marneus Calgar to be their "spiritual liege"...
> 
> pg. 48, The Zeist Campaign, 5E Space Marine Codex
> 
> ...


Ah but Marneus Calgar is shown to be more than willing to 'bend the knee' to Commander Dante, he recognises that whilst he is one of the greatest Chapter Masters currently alive he is still virtually a neophyte when compared to the Master of the Blood Angels- Calgar's flaw is that he's prideful but even he isn't *that* arrogant.
Whilst Sicarius may have been placed in command of a combined force of Chapters he himself was more than willing to submit to the command of Logan Grimnar during the 13th Black Crusade, it's swings and roundabouts in the end.

Plus Calgar is renowned amongst the Ultramarines as being the greatest Chapter Master they've ever had, who is only eclipsed by Guilliman in terms of what he has achieved so considering the regular contact the Ultramarines strive for between themselves and other Astartes (a necessity considering how far on the edge of Imperial space they are) the fact that other Chapters are willing to heed the words of the Master of the most celebrated of Chapters is not too incomprehensible.


darkreever said:


> Only problem with using ten thousand as your base for that figure is that most of the legions, Ultramarines included, were larger pre-heresy. They might have started off at ten thousand each, but many of the legions grew in size and the Ultramarines were no exception to this.
> 
> The number of chapters they go on to create in the second founding would likely go on to support this as well. They have fourteen known descendants in the second founding, adding themselves that would mean that they were at least fifteen thousand strong.


9 known Chapters, including the Ultramarines, were founded from the Ultramarines Legion (Apocrypha of Davio) but according to the Apocrypha of Skaros 23 Primogenitor Chapters were founded in total (so that would 24 inc. the UM who are not a 'Primogenitor').

Legion sizes vary as we've all acknowledged and other than the 2 largest and the 2 smallest we have no idea the approximate numbers for each Legion really- recap:
Ultramarines- 250,000
Word Bearers- 100,000

Thousand Sons- 12,000
Emperor's Children 10,000?

Personally I think Guilliman was the greatest Primarch in his way, he made the difficult decisions that he knew might alienate him from his brothers but he did them anyway, everything he did was done to ensure the Imperium's survival- maybe there were underlying dreams of ambition, I don't know and couldn't really speculate, but in the end he succeeded with his intentions of leaving the Imperium a safer place. 
He died an ignoble death but it was for mankind that he strived not personal glory or, necessarily, for the Emperor- that is the hallmark of true greatness.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Todeswind said:


> And where praytell did you pull 250,000 from?


_The Collected Visions_ for one references the Ultramarines Legion numbering 250,000. 



Todeswind said:


> The coffee table book with all the pantings in it? It's been ages since I read that thing.


And considering it was written by Alan Merrett, and is acting as the blueprint for the Heresy series - I grant it a lot more clout than you suggest you do.

And considering _The First Heretic_ references the Word Bearers Legion as 100,000 strong, we know for certain the Ultramarines Legion was significantly larger than any other Legion - further validating the 250,000 figure.



darkreever said:


> Ahab, that number was not pulled out of Todeswind's ass, that was about the size each legion began at when the crusade started (I believe.) But over time, and especially after each legion was re-united with its primarch, their numbers increased. For some legions this number swelled more than others, legions like the Ultramarines and Luna Wolves or Word Bearers are prime examples of such a thing.


I don't believe we have any reference in the lore for the figures of the Legion's at the inception of the Great Crusade.

As for the original subject, Guilliman was a great Primarch - an administrator without peer and one of the greatest tacticians among the Primarch brotherhood. However I think that ultimately he paled in comparison to Horus.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> My question is why other legions didn't [conquer as many worlds and ... use them as giant recruiting centers...]


As to developing their own home worlds, there seems to have been an emphasis to start on the Great Crusade _then and there,_ which would prevent the Primarch from spending any time to invest his genius/leadership abilities into developing his world into a phenomenal recruiting center.

That doesn't mean those worlds weren't developed later, of course. Caliban, for instance, was developed enough that, according to "The Lion's Call" short story (IIRC), something in the order of 30,000 (I think) Astartes were added in just years after the Lion's discovery. Luther's projections of his Calibanite recruitment cycles also would indicate that the annual recruitment rate of Astartes were very significant.

As to the development of other worlds, I think that was a combination of:

(A) ... psychological choice on the part of the Primarchs. Perturabo, for instance, seems to have been distrustful of his homeworld to begin with... and thus it would stand to reason he wouldn't exactly be forthcoming toward strangers from strange worlds to join his Legion in mass quantities.

(B) ... the perceived need to move on and achieve Compliance on other worlds before one could establish a valid recruiting system versus the perceived venefit of establishing said recruiting system.

By contrast, the Ultramarines--who were able to recruit exponentially more Astartes from the get-go--would have been able to maintain a greater rate of Compliance while at the same time sparing forces to establish recruiting centers and "perfecting" their worlds. The next largest Legion, the Word Bearers, essentially tried a different flavor of what Guilliman was doing (religious conversion vs. "Spartanization"), but even their massive numbers led them to having the LOWEST Compliance rate whereas the Ultramarines had the HIGHEST.



Protoss119 said:


> ...well, I just smell a rat is all. If Guilliman meant to prevent power from being held by one individual, yet all of these other chapters willingly submit themselves to Calgar, that means Guilliman failed in the long run.


How much of that happened after the Primarchs were gone, though? Or covertly? For instance, one could argue that the Dark Angels, and just their *known* Successors (Angels of Absolution, Retribution Vengeance; Consecrators, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the Covenant) add up to at least 6-7,000 Space Marines who ultimately answer to one Grand Master and pursue a single agenda. By contrast, the Ultramarines descendants feeling a spiritual obligation in case of emergencies doesn't strike me as either a "rat", a "failure", or abusing/ignoring an established precedent.

The intent of the Codex, after all, was to shift the Astartes to a decentralized model of leadership... not to prevent Astartes from helping each other during times of actual war.

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Well said Phoebus.



Phoebus said:


> but even their massive numbers led them to having the LOWEST Compliance rate whereas the Ultramarines had the HIGHEST.


Although on a side note, when the Word Bearers fully committed themselves to the Great Crusade (following the destruction of Monarchia) they actually achieved the highest number of compliances (in the last 50 years of the Great Crusade) despite having vastly less Astartes than the Ultramarines.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Absolutely, but it's worth remembering their means.



It's flat-out stated that they were wiping out worlds left and right, and subtly implied that those they _did_ spare were planets whose religions closely matched the Old Faith of Colchis and/or were related to the general worship of Chaos found throughout the Galaxy.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As for the original subject, Guilliman was a great Primarch - an administrator without peer and one of the greatest tacticians among the Primarch brotherhood. However I think that ultimately he paled in comparison to Horus.


I agree, Horus outshone all the other Primarchs and did deserve to be warmaster, and even then Sanguinius should be the next contender before Guilliman, he was another one who would and did sacrifice everything for the Imperium, would have been interesting to see what he would have done had he survived the heresy. 

Tbh i now like Guilliman since reading the First Heretic, before he was always all powerful, didn't really have any failings or problems. But he's pretty much shown to have fuck all people skills or compassion, especially for his brother primarchs. This mya be a bad thing but i like it, it makes him alot more interesting. (still hate Calgar ^^)


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well said.

The question one ultimately needs to ask is this: did Guilliman do something the majority of the other Primarchs (excepting Angron, who was just out of it from the get-go) could _not_ have done had _they_ enjoyed the advantages his homeworld and allied planets provided him with?

I think the Emperor recognized that, which is why Horus stayed #1 and eventually became Warmaster--even after Guilliman was found, and despite the accomplishments of the XIII Legio Primarch. He simply took context into consideration. That is, given the expections that came with being a Primarch, and given the advantages Guilliman possessed, he would have been a failure if he _hadn't_ brought the most worlds into Compliance, and _hadn't_ managed to recruit the largest Legion of them all.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The question one ultimately needs to ask is this: did Guilliman do something the majority of the other Primarchs (excepting Angron, who was just out of it from the get-go) could _not_ have done had _they_ enjoyed the advantages his homeworld and allied planets provided him with?


Indeed. Part of it could be the pyschological part that you mentioned and a prideful thing to have all/most of their number from their planet origin and which they felt more like family. It does make sense because a lot of the legions have cultural aspects to their legions that they didn't really spread when they took over other planets. To conquer and grow was part of the Ultramarines way of life. 

I do believe that the primarchs had the capability of conquering and growing in vast numbers... perhaps comparably to the Word Bearers or maybe more. I just think in many ways they thought that their way of life was not worthy for the rest of the Imperium. And as such were pretty exclusive in how they spread their "culture."

On the other hand, I do remember that Guilliman did have a sort of advantage compared to most of his primarchs in already having a semi powerful system there and set up at his hands.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

I don't think any-one Primarch or his legion can be successfully argued to be 'the best'. Each had their own strengths and weaknesses. Gulliman may have been the best from a tactical/strategic point of view, but I doubt he was master at absolutely everything else. My fluff-fu is weak but wasn't one of the Primarchs a pskyer (Magnus) who had greater physic ability than Gulliman (did he have any physic ability?). Just an example. Gulliman may have captured more territory, had more men, but that doesn't mean he was better, just that he had more, for many reasons, not just his logistical know-how.

Just my two pence on the whole Gulliman is the best thing.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I just think in many ways they thought that their way of life was not worthy for the rest of the Imperium. And as such were pretty exclusive in how they spread their "culture."


Worthy or easily applicable. Either way, agreed. 

Perhaps that's what worked for the Ultramarines. Their society was militaristic, but its tenets were universal. The Dark Angels (to cite an example), on the other hand, relied on some pretty esoteric traditions, many of which were kept separate from their own population.

Similarly, the Blood Angels largely drew from the almost religious relationship shared between the people of their devastated homeworld and Sanguinius. Such a bond would be hard to replicate to a desired level given the pace of the Great Crusade.

So on, so forth.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Tbh i now like Guilliman since reading the First Heretic, before he was always all powerful, didn't really have any failings or problems. But he's pretty much shown to have fuck all people skills or compassion, especially for his brother primarchs. This mya be a bad thing but i like it, it makes him alot more interesting. (still hate Calgar ^^)


In his dealings with Alpharius he showed his lack of people skills with his brothers as he told Alpaharius that his legion would never hope to match the Ultramarines and after that Alpharius simply ignored him. (Paraphrased from Index Astartes IV)

However I still love Robot Gulliman! :grin:, 3rd favourite behind Corax and Alpharius who're joint top with Jaghati Khan 4th.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

First off, respect to OP for having the guts to post such a sensitive topic.

Secondly, respect to those who posted here, I was expecting to read through a shitstorm, yet it turned out to be a rather civilised debate.

And now, on to the topic.

I'm with Abomination in that there is no single greatest Primarch, only the best for the given task at hand. I wouldn't say that any one outshone the other because pretty much every Primarch could do something that the rest couldn't. If you needed a place in one piece then you sent the Ultramarines. If you wanted rebellions to cease, send word that the Night Lords are on their way. If theres a fortress world that needs to be cracked open, the Iron Warriors are the perfect for the job. If theres a foe that you have little intel on, the Luna Wolves will think up something and adapt. And the list goes on and on...

Although their circumstances were different and thus each could be given a ranking on some score board, a more thorough and deeper inspection would render even this pointless. For instance, you could say that certain Primarchs were put into difficult situations (Magnus, Horus, Dorn, and Corax, for example), while the others seem to have been spared, like Angron and the Khan. However, these two were simply unable to perceive any situation as "difficult" because their characters were unable to comprehend that theres something they couldn't do, and as long as they could, it wasn't difficult. Therefore, even if they got into a difficult situation, they would have replied with their usual swiftness and determination, and thus said situation wouldn't be perceived as difficult by outsiders either because they just fixed it one way or another.

So I'm not saying that Guilliman wasn't good (my lore-fu isn't strong enough for that fight), only that he wasn't any better than any of his brother Primarchs. However, if his character is the one that you like the most then its your own subjective business and I have no problems with that. Just play along when I call you a loyalist dog. :grin:


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> So I'm not saying that Guilliman wasn't good (my lore-fu isn't strong enough for that fight), only that he wasn't any better than any of his brother Primarchs. However, if his character is the one that you like the most then its your own subjective business and I have no problems with that. Just play along when I call you a loyalist dog. :grin:


It could be that Guilliman was just gifted the best in what planet he was thrown as a child. I mean, there really is nothing to create in terms of the other primarchs empires. It seemed like when reading The First Heretic, that Logar and Magnus treated their home planets like holiday retreats than parts of the crusade. Guilliman had something already established out in the east that he could look at as a sort of blue print for what he would establish for the crusade. As I look at the other primarchs they really didn't have anything like that. Could they have done something similar? I think they could have. 

I look at the worst example of a primarch, Angron, and I see how he kind of got the smallest straw compared to Guilliman. The thing is, we will never know the "true" capabilities of Angron and his legion ever since his upbringing. Any care he had for anything was taken away from him by the emperor and the way his mind process works has been manipulated by his owners and the implants that spent many years destroying his mind.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Ah but Marneus Calgar is shown to be more than willing to 'bend the knee' to Commander Dante, he recognises that whilst he is one of the greatest Chapter Masters currently alive he is still virtually a neophyte when compared to the Master of the Blood Angels- Calgar's flaw is that he's prideful but even he isn't *that* arrogant.
> Whilst Sicarius may have been placed in command of a combined force of Chapters he himself was more than willing to submit to the command of Logan Grimnar during the 13th Black Crusade, it's swings and roundabouts in the end.
> 
> Plus Calgar is renowned amongst the Ultramarines as being the greatest Chapter Master they've ever had, who is only eclipsed by Guilliman in terms of what he has achieved so considering the regular contact the Ultramarines strive for between themselves and other Astartes (a necessity considering how far on the edge of Imperial space they are) the fact that other Chapters are willing to heed the words of the Master of the most celebrated of Chapters is not too incomprehensible.





 Phoebus said:


> How much of that happened after the Primarchs were gone, though? Or covertly? For instance, one could argue that the Dark Angels, and just their *known* Successors (Angels of Absolution, Retribution Vengeance; Consecrators, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the Covenant) add up to at least 6-7,000 Space Marines who ultimately answer to one Grand Master and pursue a single agenda. By contrast, the Ultramarines descendants feeling a spiritual obligation in case of emergencies doesn't strike me as either a "rat", a "failure", or abusing/ignoring an established precedent.
> 
> The intent of the Codex, after all, was to shift the Astartes to a decentralized model of leadership... not to prevent Astartes from helping each other during times of actual war.


Good points from Spikey and Phoebus (in fact, from pretty much everyone involved). I hadn't considered the other Chapter Masters of the Ultramarines - neither has GW, I think. And I can see how the Ultramarines successor chapters would consider Calgar their "spiritual liege" due to their heritage.

The problem comes in when Ward, on the page that shall not be named (hint: pg. 24, 5E Space Marines Codex), that even the chapters not descended from Guilliman's gene-seed "will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch" despite that they "can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." For certain, Guilliman was a hero of the Imperium, but were I in the shoes (well, boots) of a Space Marine descended from another Primarch, I would more readily embrace my own heritage than celebrate another's.

And then there's the chapters who are not only descended from another Primarch but do not follow the Codex Astartes at all. Ward suggests that "their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." I can't take a position for or against this viewpoint; the Space Wolves and Black Templars seem to be pretty well off to me, but things are supposed to be getting worse, so I wouldn't be surprised if their numbers are diminishing.

But while I can understand why the Adeptus Terra would favor the Ultramarines gene-seed - they and the Dark Angels have the purest gene-seed, but the Ultras successors are not necessarily subservient to their Chapter Master, at least not in a legal sense (spiritual is another story) - it's just that the way Ward wrote that leads me to interpret that as the Adeptus Terra trying to systematically and purposefully kill off the non-codex chapters in favor of Ultras successors. I'm fairly certain that they're _not _trying to do that, but Ward seems to have made it look that way.

I guess it's a matter of how one interprets Ward's written fluff, but we're here to debate Guilliman, not Ward, I guess. That's what happens when I only have a 5E SM Codex as my source for everything Space Marines, huh?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't really remember, when/where, but I do remember Spikey Baron saying that the Iron Hands also were known for their pure gene-seed. If I am wrong, then woops, but it just came to me. If this is true, its interesting that the Iron Hands would have such a stance on human flesh being weaker. Its almost a blasphemy to ruin their purity that many of the other legion gene-seeds don't have.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _The Collected Visions_ for one references the Ultramarines Legion numbering 250,000.
> 
> And considering it was written by Alan Merrett, and is acting as the blueprint for the Heresy series - I grant it a lot more clout than you suggest you do.
> 
> And considering _The First Heretic_ references the Word Bearers Legion as 100,000 strong, we know for certain the Ultramarines Legion was significantly larger than any other Legion - further validating the 250,000 figure.


I admitted I was wrong already. What is the point in attacking me for a matter I've already conceded the point on? 

I wasn't attacking the _Visons of Heresy_ book as illegitimate, I was trying to figure out which book to which he referred so that I could check the figure which, as it transpires was correct. If I implied that it is somehow less legitimate I'm sorry but it was not intended as an attack on the book.

If it transpires that 10k was the starting number of the legions that's great but that isn't where I got the number 10k from. That being said my assumption about the size of the Space Marine legion was just that, an assumption. The term Legion, as I've stated several times before, has a numerical value associated with it somewhere in the realm of 10,000ish historically. Knowing GW's propensity to beg, borrow, or steal from history the visible similarities between the Codex Astrate's reductions of the Space Marine legions after the Heresy and the reduction of the Roman Legions seemed to be telling. That combined with GW's long history of historical gaming to do with the Roman Era of Pax Romana I assumed that GW was using Legion in it's literal military definition, a military unit of 5,000-10,000 soldiers, rather than Legion in it's more ambiguous definition, a lot of soldiers. It transpires that I was incorrect but I wasn't simply making stuff up.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Todeswind said:


> If I implied that it is somehow less legitimate I'm sorry but it was not intended as an attack on the book.


Your comment about using that book as little better than a paper weight or design piece is where any perceived unhappiness comes from. Its not a fact that any of us hear needed to know, and you mentioning it like that leads to implications that you hold the book to a lesser value or quality.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Your getting all worked up over his perception of a book? Seems a little OTT, even for fluff nuts.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Your getting all worked up over his perception of a book? Seems a little OTT, even for fluff nuts.


_Collected Visions_ is an older piece of fluff but it has many facts about the Heresy. I don't want to say its a "bible" towards Heresy Fluff, but it really is a big piece of information glued together and not all over the place like other of the Heresy fluff. Thats why bashing it or disregarding that information would bother many interested in the lore. But in someways, I think later on in the Heresy, it will interfere with more current fluff due to the perspective on how it was written and because of the direction authors choose to take the Heresy in.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Oh I know what it is CK, and I agree in regards to eventual conflict, Hell the HH writers cant help but come in conflict themselves when they write, its only a matter of time till Collected visions is...ignored? Overwritten? Whatever they do. Im just surprised it hasnt happened yet.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Your comment about using that book as little better than a paper weight or design piece is where any perceived unhappiness comes from. Its not a fact that any of us hear needed to know, and you mentioning it like that leads to implications that you hold the book to a lesser value or quality.


You mean?



> The coffee table book with all the pantings in it? It's been ages since I read that thing.


As I said it was not my intent to dismiss it, just to establish that we're talking about the same book.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> The problem comes in when Ward, on the page that shall not be named (hint: pg. 24, 5E Space Marines Codex), that even the chapters not descended from Guilliman's gene-seed "will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch" despite that they "can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." For certain, Guilliman was a hero of the Imperium, but were I in the shoes (well, boots) of a Space Marine descended from another Primarch, I would more readily embrace my own heritage than celebrate another's.


Yeah, that seems like a heavy-handed paragraph. I don't have that Codex on me, but I did and remember the section you're referring to... 

Let me put it this way. If it had said "Chapters not descended from Guilliman ... will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch ..." I wouldn't really have a problem with it. Notice the absence of "the" at the beginning, which makes it all-encompassing.

There's Gene-seed, after all, and then there is the Codex. If you're a Codex Chapter, Ultramarines-descendant or not, you're kind of aspiring to Guilliman's
standards and teachings. It's one of the reasons why *certain* Chapters out there _don't_ adhere to the Codex--their own traditions are held more highly than those of Guilliman and the Ultramarines. See, for instance, the Unforgiven and their Inner Circle, Deathwing and Ravenwing variants, etc.



> And then there's the chapters who are not only descended from another Primarch but do not follow the Codex Astartes at all. Ward suggests that "their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." I can't take a position for or against this viewpoint; the Space Wolves and Black Templars seem to be pretty well off to me, but things are supposed to be getting worse, so I wouldn't be surprised if their numbers are diminishing.


But the thing is, this statement is accurate.

The Space Wolves are definitely not source for Gene-seed for new Chapters, and I don't recall the Black Templars founding any (?). The Blood Angels have a heap of issues that make them a question mark to the Imperium, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that--as time's passed--the High Lord's are reluctant to use their Geneseed. The Dark Angels could be controlling their own numbers--they don't seem to want Successors they can't keep in their circle. 

So, we're left with the Imperial Fists (who suffer from the loss of two organs), the Salamanders, the Raven Guard, the White Scars, the Iron Hands... and the Ultramarines, who supposedly made up the vast majority of the surviving Space Marines at the Second Founding. That, in and of itself, would have been a *huge* factor behind the High Lords sticking with them. Nevermind the pure Gene-seed, for a while Ultramarines *was* pretty much _synonymous_ with Space Marine in the sense that, if you saw a Space Marine... he probably _was_ an Ultramarine.

So if you have that precedent, and the rest of the First Founding Chapters have some sort of issue (this one's missing organs; that one's rumored to be butchering people and drinking their blood; that one has fangs and fur and howls; that one is an albino whose ancestors might have bred clones; that one's a reverse albino with glowing eyes; etc.)... why wouldn't you stick with what's worked great so far?

I think it's worth noting that the Imperium is a highly prejudiced society that subscribes to a complex mythology and a heap of cults-of-personality. _A game_ (ironically, in this case, one I've never even played) is meant to be fair, but we should remember that 40k is based on a mythos depicting a universe that's anything but.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i find that whilst Gullimans sucess's cannot be denied at the end of the heresy he himself almost brought a second civil war about when he wrote the codex and said this is how it must be.
the Ultramarines have the most successor chapters due to the inherrant nobility within them although i seem to remember one captain from a successor chapter turning renegade but in all honesty Honsou was correct, that you won't see an Ultrmarine within the ranks of chaos or the renegades of Hurons Red Corsairs, 
As much as i think personally that Gulliman is a arrogant so and so even i have to admit that he does seem to grasp an overall view of things and is a tactician second to none, i just find it a little sad that when Ventris deviated from the strict codex to do battle afainst the Tyranids on Tarsis, his crime was to be exiled for simply interpretating the codex a different way.
i do not like gulliman but whislt i do not believe he was the greatest primarch he wascertainly one of the most forthright ones the greatest imho that was Sang.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ultramarines have still gone renegade or traitor though. I don't believe they are any more inherently noble than the other legions either. All the rest of them are noble, some like the Space Wolves in a different way perhaps. The Ultramarines have the most successors due to for one their size at the end of the heresy compared to the others when they were broken down, and because there gene-seed is still one of the purest, as discussed in other topics, the Dark Angels may also have a pure gene-seed but their own actions and motives are likely why they are not utilised. Point is i don't find the Ultramarines any more automatically noble or uncorruptable than any of the others.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, I think it's a Sergeant Constantinius that's referenced in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines, as being fairly notable.

I think Ultramarine nobility is directly related to the inherent nobility of the Ultramar society. They might be a highly militarized, authoritarian society, but they do genuinely seek to uphold ideals of personal honor, loyalty, integrity, etc.

By contrast, Fenrisian society is a warrior society, plain and simple. In the Ragnar Blackmane stories, we see the Wolf Priests grabbing both the noble and the vicious for their ranks (remember the Skullcrusher fellow, who was picked after his tribe ambushed Ragnar's in the dead of night, with superior numbers, killing or enslaving their surviving womenfolk?). The society from which the White Scars hail celebrates traditions and activities that are hardy to construe as noble--they emulate a society of raiders and marauders. So on, so forth.

In that sense, is there an inherent nobility within Ultramarines _in general_ that can be greater than that of other First Founding Chapters? To an extent, yeah, I think so.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Ultramarines have still gone renegade or traitor though. I don't believe they are any more inherently noble than the other legions either. All the rest of them are noble, some like the Space Wolves in a different way perhaps. The Ultramarines have the most successors due to for one their size at the end of the heresy compared to the others when they were broken down, and because there gene-seed is still one of the purest, as discussed in other topics, the Dark Angels may also have a pure gene-seed but their own actions and motives are likely why they are not utilised. Point is i don't find the Ultramarines any more automatically noble or uncorruptable than any of the others.


that maybe true but whenever i have read anything about them fiction or otherwise that is how it comes across to me thats all


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I kinda like how TV Tropes pegged Guilliman as a jerk with a heart of gold. He wasn't the awesomest Primarch, simply because he had a tendency to insult/annoy others, but he did care for other people.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still disagree, the changed wrought over a human when turned into an astartes can change everything. Point in case, the Blood Angels pre-heresy despite being recruited from some of the harshest people humanity has to offer came out of the transformation to be noted as the noblest of marines, the paragons of astartes. Even post-heresy with the flaws they are still meant to be massively noble despite everything


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Mind you, I'm making my judgements based on an outside-of-the-game opinion. That is, I'm not saying the Ultramarines are noble on account of what a 40k book says. It's just my observation as a supposedly impartial outsider.

I know that the Blood Angels Codex and Index Astartes state that they are the noblest of Chapters, etc. No offense, but I think that's a lot of hot air. It's in-game propaganda (of the Imperium, that is), not a realistic proclamation.

There's no doubt that the Ultramarines developed the way they did, despite the changes entailed in becoming an Astartes, because they had a genuine commitment toward perpetuating and defending a society that they believed to be noble and good for the people that belonged to it. They are genuinely committed toward defending the people of Ultramar and ensuring their well-being--albeit under militaristic lines.

Now look at the Blood Angels. More importantly, look at the people they recruit from: the tribes of Baal. Irradiated, starved, stalked by monsters, condemned to a horrific wasteland. The Blood Angels, like any other Space Marine Chapter, are well aware that you do not need to fish for recruits in some freakish hell-hole--the Ultramarines have been proving that for ten thousand years (correspondingly, the Blood Angels have also proven that you don't need a Feral World tall, strapping and strong barbarian ideal--their own recruits are hardly excellent physical specimens). But in the name of their narrow ideology, they have consigned the people that most adore and worship them to millennia of misery in the hopes that each generation might see a handful of them raised to become Astartes themselves.

Let me put it another way.

Let's say that the second coming of Sparta happened today, minus all the nasty slavery. And let's also pretend that there were no kings or Ephors, that the system was totally meritocratic (the best become the leaders) and driven toward personal integrity. There also happens to be an army of superhuman guys who live to protect this realm; only the best of the normal guys can join them. I say that we would all think this place is kind of insane (all the physical hardship and the life-long military lifestyle), but I think we would also kind of admire their outlook (just as we still admire Sparta, despite the slavery, the kings, the power-hungry politicians, etc.).

Now, let's combine starving Ethiopia from the '80s with an irradiated wasteland. Pretend the ruling regime does absolutely nothing to help the citizens from the cannibal mass-murderers that routinely prey on them, doesn't lift a finger to either feed them or help them feed themselves, and in general simply enjoys a relationship wherein they are worshipped as "angels" without giving anything back. Oh, they do recruit a dozen or so of their kids every few years, and make them into superhuman warriors that subsequently also stop really caring about the misery their fellow people suffered under.

Which of the two is more noble? :grin:

It's this kind of utterly tragic, inhuman treatment of others that makes the 40k universe so excellently dystopian! It's why, ultimately, I like the Blood Angels more than the Ultramarines. I *enjoy* the illogical juxtaposition of the Blood Angels behaving nobly (and they do, see their humility, courage, selflessness, personal conduct, etc.) while at the same time ignoring the misery of their forefathers like it's nothing! :biggrin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But then beggard cant be choosers as they say. The Blood Angels don't have a sytem of their own to recruite from Baal is it, and its steeped in tradition and the 'birthplace/landing" of Sagnuinius, they aren't going to abandon it any more than the Ultramarines would abandon Macragge. Now the planet will never be a nice place, its too heavily irradiated, and violent, the best the Blood Angels could do is keep the populace safe. But then they aren't going to be strong or resilient from surviving on Baal, they will just be weak, mutated and iradiated like now, but without the survival instincts built into them from the other dangers of Baal the BA could get rid of. 

So now they have a planet in which none of the populace will really make worth astartes canditates and have nowhere to really recruit from without moving homeworlds, which like i've said, they aren't going to do, no chapter would, especially first founding. But they know that if they keep the people as they are they will become strong enough to be astartes and they know that when their transformation will turn them into handsome(as far as astartes go) noble and a changed people.

I can guarantee if some catastrophic even happened in Ultramar, most the planets were lost and they only had Macragge which became like Baal/Fenris or any other harsh world, then the Ultramarines would stay and keep recruiting from that world aswell, they wouldn't abandon the home of Guilliman and their original legion. 

I don't think the BA being highly noble is propaganda either, for that matter you could just as easily say that the UM aren't actually all that noble and Ultramar isn't all that noble really it's just propaganda. We know that certainly before the heresy the BA were seen as the noblest of legions, its stated several times and by the other legions, the BA HH book will probably show this more.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think in some ways, the Blood Angels can be seen as a noble/noblest of the chapters, simply because they can identify their flaws and admit to them as being flaws. I think it stats thats the reason why they are considered noble. That, and the fact that Sanguinus was probably legend with his character and nobility. 

Overall, I wouldn't say that it means that the Blood Angels chapter is the one and only noblest chapter. I think in someways you could say the same with the Salamanders and the Wolves. They both live by the people and help them. In _Salamanders_ it shows how the Salamanders constantly strive to protect their people from the wrath of their planet.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Let me clarify. I'm not saying that the Blood Angels _don't_ act nobly _at all._ I'm saying that their treatment of their people has to be part of the record when someone argues whether they are noble or not.

Could the Blood Angels do something for their people? Absolutely. I have a hard time believing that, in ten thousand years, they couldn't set up some dome cities or something to accomodate the 120,000 or so people that live on Baal Secundus. Plenty of other Imperial worlds have cities that need to be made proof from the outside environment in order to keep people alive.

Again, the Ultramarines have proven you don't need to be fighting for your life to make a good recruit. I'd be willing to bet that, before the events of "The Chapter's Due", not a single Aspirant recruited by the Ultramarines ever so much as heard of someone trying to invade their planet in thousands of years.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Let me clarify. I'm not saying that the Blood Angels _don't_ act nobly _at all._ I'm saying that their treatment of their people has to be part of the record when someone argues whether they are noble or not.


This I understand, I was just further explaining why the BA codex considers them to be noble. But even despite that, I wouldn't consider them the "noblest of chapters." 

As for Ultramar, it is actually losing some of its glory now that its been identified that it lost 2 planets. One by the Tyranid Invasion and one in _The Chapter's Due_ by Honsou and M'kar's daemon horde. Do you think they will ever be able to resettle these planets?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not saying they are the noblest, just that neither are the UM, and i agree the Salamanders are extremely noble, i was just using the BA as a point. And again if the BA made nice biomes for the populace they wouldn't be as strong as they are now, recruitment levels would fall to almost nothing. The Ultramarines can afford to recruite people from nice worlds because there are so many of them, hell its an entire system, even if the whole planet is nice and cushty to live in you've got so many that you can afford to be very choosy on who you take, the BA can't, neither can the Space Wolves.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think there's a corrolation between how nice the planet is and how many Astartes you can recruit.

I would posit that the average twelve year-old from Ultramar could beat the average twelve year-old from Baal Secundus far more often than not. He is in extremely better physical shape, benefits from better nutrition, and has been formally trained in melee, hand-to-hand, and ranged combat.

It's not a case of the Ultramarines barely being able to meet their quota on account of having several planets' worth of "softies"; rather, I'd argue the reverse: if they didn't have a cap they needed to observe, they could recruit infinitely more Aspirants than the Blood Angels ever could on Baal Secundus. This is confirmed by the Emperor's own recruiting practices. The Legions initially recruited from humans that were neither as militaristic as the men of Ultramar or as inured to hardship as the nomads of Baal Secundus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not saying the humans of Utramar are soft, but they definetly have an easier life without mutation, radiation effects and what not and there are so fucking many of them, and as a result can afford to live in a structured civilised society where they can train to become warriors, be schooled in combat, have a healthy nutrional diet and enviroment, but i guarantee a large portion of the population would have no hope of becoming astartes because they aren't good enough, a 'side effect' of a nice lifestyle. On Baal the population is very low, but the entire population are hardened by their existence and upbringing allowing alot of them to be worthy of becoming astartes, if you take away the hardships of the world and let them live in a nice protected biome, you now still have a very low population, of which its likely only the minority will be good enough to pass the trials of becoming an astartes.

Edit: and they can recruit infinity more troops than the BA could, they have that many more people to recruit from, multiple prosperous worlds. As opposes to a radiation ridden barren wasteland of a world with a tiny population

Its a hard point to put across


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> And for all you "poster boy" haters that disagree with this, go ahead and explain why you think they weren't the greatest.


He's one-dimensional, a mary-sue, an arrogant prick with no real challenging battles to fall back on, and he single handedly caused the heresy by being such an utter fucktard.

He's everything wrong with the fluff of this game.

Or is this just haters gon hate and u mad troll bait? I could make one talking about female space marines. That's always a laugh.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The noblest legion imo is Imperial Fists, they don't have any worlds, they only place a single monastery on those world they have a history with, they have honour duels, they don't think themselves above any other legion, they don't have the arrogance of the Ultramarines.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The noblest legion imo is Imperial Fists, they don't have any worlds, they only place a single monastery on those world they have a history with, they have honour duels, they don't think themselves above any other legion, they don't have the arrogance of the Ultramarines.


For good reason, they failed the Emperor.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> For good reason, they failed the Emperor.


They only think they failed the Emperor, if anyone failed the Emperor it was the Dark Angels.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> For good reason, they failed the Emperor.


So how'd that heresy thing go for the ultras? How'd the Emperor do?
Ooooh right. Vegetable. Man he sure showed us chaos jerks. By sitting there drooling menacingly.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> They only think they failed the Emperor, if anyone failed the Emperor it was the Dark Angels.


Oh the Dark Angels are undoubtedly on the Emperor's naughty list.

But the Imperial Fists, more specifically Rogal Dorn, did fail the Emperor- they couldn't protect him, well that's a fairly minor failure considering the circumstances, but they also didn't support the Imperium in it's time of desperation (despite Dorn's mighty words in _Nemesis_ regarding the fact he serves the Imperium and that the Imperium and the Emperor aren't necessarily the same thing).



LordWaffles said:


> So how'd that heresy thing go for the ultras? How'd the Emperor do?
> Ooooh right. Vegetable. Man he sure showed us chaos jerks. By sitting there drooling menacingly.


How's Horus by the way? Oh that's right he got bitch slapped, his body was stolen and eventually he was turned into so much ash and dust...bummer


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How? only if you believe The Lion was a fence sitter, i don't really see any evidence to support it in the slightest apart from what Astelan said, which can be seen in a number of ways anyway. And i agree the Imperial Fists only failed the Emperor in their minds.

Every single Legion including the Ultramarines failed the Emperor in the regard of not protecting him.


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## Ibrzu (Dec 23, 2009)

This is just a shorter version of why I don't like Ultrasmurfs. I understand that there had to be some default army of SM, but dear Malal that doesn't mean I have to like them. And Matt Ward ain't making them any more popular.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Or is this just haters gon hate and u mad troll bait? I could make one talking about female space marines. That's always a laugh.


Not exactly. The female "space marines" (not considered space marines really) didn't really have that grand effect like Guilliman. 

I also want the other side because I was actually one of those guys. Not so much that they were portrayed as over powered, but because they destroyed the power of the Legions.

My old argument which I sort of have today is that the Legions were the biggest power of the Imperium. They were able to so much during the Great Crusade that they basically just threw that all away over the "fear" concept of another legion falling to corruption. I still have that idea that they are essentially weakening themselves by turning themselves into chapters.

However, my concept today is a little broader. If you think about it, the legions could never be what they were during the Great Crusade. Firstly, they have nothing of a great warmaster or Emperor to personally lead them like they did during the Great Crusade. Secondly, three of the legions were almost completely anhilated from existance. Even the legions that weren't so devasted suffered much during the fight for Terra. The loss of so much number could never bring them to what they were.

Going back in terms of leadership, the only "astartes leaders" that maybe competent enough to lead such power, maybe Bjorn, Calagar, or Dante. But thats pretty much it. Calagar especially considering the responsibility of the whole eastern section for his responsibility. The problem with even that, is if even he could hold the responsibility of commanding an entire legion. He is after all only an astartes, a smart and tough one, but astartes non the less. Having that much power and astartes allows for more possibilities to be thrown out of office. 

The primarchs in the other hand had an almost "divine right" to lead their legions. Both in the Emperor's Will, what they could do, and what they were as an entirety. Even the sight of a primarch was a powerful concept in its own right as well.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> How? only if you believe The Lion was a fence sitter, i don't really see any evidence to support it in the slightest apart from what Astelan said, which can be seen in a number of ways anyway. And i agree the Imperial Fists only failed the Emperor in their minds.
> 
> Every single Legion including the Ultramarines failed the Emperor in the regard of not protecting him.


I don't know about the legions on Terra failing the Emperor. It was four against seven, and I think they did all that they could. I don't think it was the part of the Imperium's plan to hold those legions forever. I do agree that the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines failed to reach terra. But in a sense, they did their part by forcing Horus to make some ill fated decisions. The Dark Angels are a different story. The Ultramarines on the other hand are all the way east, and also did their best to get on Terra on time. Again though, if Horus really didn't think the Dark Angels and Ultramarines were coming, I don't think he would have lowered his shields and let the Emperor come in.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't think they failed the Emperor, they were faced with overwhelming odds and would have suceeded had the Empeor not risen to Horus bait and fought him. Point i was making was if you say the Imperial Fists failed the Emperor by not protecting him, then they all did, and like i said the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars would have successfully defended the Emperor had he not gone to Horus and waited a few more hours for the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines to arrive


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Ibrzu said:


> This is just a shorter version of why I don't like Ultrasmurfs. .


4chan is riddled so full of errors and inaccuracies it's almost funny. 

As for the whole ''spiritual leige'' I believe that it refers to Ultramarine sucessors. Not all Marine chapters. I don't have my copy of the 5th edition Codex on me though.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

My favorite quote during that was:
"(Nicknamed Rowboat Girlyman for his utter douchebaggery during the Heresy)"


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> My favorite quote during that was:
> "(Nicknamed Rowboat Girlyman for his utter douchebaggery during the Heresy)"


What douchebaggery during the Heresy? I recall people had issue with his actions during the Scouring, but to my knowledge I don't think he offended anybody during the Heresy itself.

But then again it's 4chan. None of it's accurate at all.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Wow, some of those quotes really pissed me off...

"This wouldn't be a problem if Horus was an Ultramarine. You know it's true." - The God Emperor of Mankind, remarking to Sanguinius during the Horus Heresy.

"Eldrad Ulthran voluntarily sacrificed himself to Slaanesh, for he had finally foreseen that even had they struggled for all eternity, the Eldar would never be the equals of Ultramarines, nor could they ever fully grasp the glorious legacy of Roboute Guilliman. Any torment She Who Thirsts could conceive would pale in comparison to living with this horrible truth, and in the end, maybe Slaanesh would take pity on the Eldar since she, too, shares the pain of never being able to reach the shining peak of superiority that are the true Sons of Guilliman." - An unidentified farseer of Craftworld Ulthwé.

"I single-handedly, casually, and easily bested a Bloodthirster of Khorne in hand to hand combat and sent it screaming back into the warp; other chapters would need to send an entire company of assault marines to have the smallest hope of defeating such a beast in close combat." - Chaplain Varnus.

"I was not a tactical genius. My Legion should follow another primarch instead and aspire to his teachings more than my own. My only regret is that thanks to my inferior gene-seed my sons can never be true Ultramarines." - Jagatai Khan, primarch of the White Scars.

"I supported the codex reformation from the beginning out of respect for Roboute Guilliman, who is my spiritual liege. Since my own knowledge of warfare is severely lacking I was overjoyed when my Legion was given the opportunity to learn from a more competent general's experience. My only regrets are that we, rather than they, were charged with protecting Terra, and that thanks to my inferior gene-seed my sons can never be true Ultramarines." -Rogal Dorn, primarch of the Imperial Fists.

"I may be one of the greatest of primarchs, warmaster, Imperium destabilizing traitor, embodiment of the ruinous powers. Yet even I have to admit that my dear brother Guilliman is clearly superior in every way. Hell... I specifically orchestrated the events of this treason so that the Ultramarines are on the other side of the galaxy. Why? Not because I knew they'd trounce us all within mere moments - which they would - but because the entire purpose of my actions was to weaken the Imperium just enough so that my brother, o prestigious Guilliman, could impose his superior ideology over our brethren. I knew I could never live up to his name, so I gave it up all for him, for you, my brother!" - Horus, primarch of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus.

Where do all these quotes come from?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Wow, some of those quotes really pissed me off...
> 
> "This wouldn't be a problem if Horus was an Ultramarine. You know it's true." - The God Emperor of Mankind, remarking to Sanguinius during the Horus Heresy.
> 
> ...


All of that's made up. Like I said. 4chan is also a humor/parody thing with memes. Plus it's poorly researched anyway.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hahaha, that was some funny stuff. I was like... well I'm not suscribed to white dwarf. Maybe I missed something.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Gree said:


> What douchebaggery during the Heresy? I recall people had issue with his actions during the Scouring, but to my knowledge I don't think he offended anybody during the Heresy itself.
> 
> But then again it's 4chan. None of it's accurate at all.


He offended Alpharius for no other reason than to offend Alpharius, as my empirically provable rebuttal.

My second rebuttal that will require marginally more time is he then shits on everyone and everything, he has zero friends that happen to be primarchs and he almost breaks the imperium apart a second time to enforce his (book, for lack of a cleaner term) is the codex for all chapters.

He's like a goddamned aspergers kid, no social skills and his way or the highway.


Although that 4chan link does describe a fallacy with the current dex. Templar are NOOOOOOOWHERE near dying off. They have more marines than 3-10 chapters put together.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> He offended Alpharius for no other reason than to offend Alpharius, as my empirically provable rebuttal.


I did not get a chance to read that quite yet. So you will have to hold off on that.



LordWaffles said:


> My second rebuttal that will require marginally more time is he then shits on everyone and everything, .


Nope, sorry. Guilliman seems to have a pretty good relationsip with some Primarchs.



LordWaffles said:


> he has zero friends that happen to be primarchs


Horus claimed he got along well with Guilliman in Horus Rising. Dorn's statue stands in Ultramar. Dorn himself seems to have had a pretty good relationship with Guilliman beside from the whole Legion incident (Which Dorn was not in the best of moods from the Heresy). In fact Guilliman is described as begging to Dorn to let him help him.

Iron Warriors IA.



> Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone Rogal Dorn expected honourable battle but that was not Perturabo s agenda at all.





LordWaffles said:


> and he almost breaks the imperium apart a second time to enforce his (book, for lack of a cleaner term) is the codex for all chapters.


Not quite. As much blame can be laid upon Dorn. It's far more muddled than you imply. Plus alot of those changes were decided by the High Lords. Guilliman was stated to be charged with doing it. Guilliman appearantly regarded the High Lords as his boss.

Insignium Astartes.



> The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces.





LordWaffles said:


> He's like a goddamned aspergers kid, no social skills and his way or the highway.


Sorry not so. That is a huge exaggeration of the events itself. Dorn himself was equally stubrron on comparable issues, if nto more so.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> He offended Alpharius for no other reason than to offend Alpharius, as my empirically provable rebuttal.
> 
> My second rebuttal that will require marginally more time is he then shits on everyone and everything, he has zero friends that happen to be primarchs and he almost breaks the imperium apart a second time to enforce his (book, for lack of a cleaner term) is the codex for all chapters.
> 
> ...


The Khan and Corax also liked him, but I suppose that wouldn't really fit with your grandiose and inaccurate claims, ah well.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Gree said:


> I did not get a chance to read that quite yet. So you will have to hold off on that.


It's one of the defining moments and since it involves my legion I know ample amounts about it. But if you know nothing of it it's undebatable.



Gree said:


> Nope, sorry. Guilliman seems to have a pretty good relationsip with some Primarchs.


Proof beyond Horus and Dorn? I've never heard of him getting along well with anyone or anything that wasn't an ultramehreen, so this is news to me if it is beyond a doubt true.



Gree said:


> Horus claimed he got along well with Guilliman in Horus Rising. Dorn's statue stands in Ultramar. Dorn himself seems to have had a pretty good relationship with Guilliman beside from the whole Legion incident (Which Dorn was not in the best of moods from the Heresy). In fact Guilliman is described as begging to Dorn to let him help him.


In comparison to Horus who made allies from nearly all the traitors(Alpharius, Lorgar, Curze, etc) or the Salamander's leader who was held in high standing for his views on life?
Of course he'd beg Dorn to let him help him, he didn't trust anyone with anything and he had to mary sue it up for them.



Gree said:


> Not quite. As much blame can be laid upon Dorn. It's far more muddled than you imply. Plus alot of those changes were decided by the High Lords. Guilliman was stated to be charged with doing it. Guilliman appearantly regarded the High Lords as his boss.


Not really, Guilliman was the only one besides the high lords pushing for such a travesty, the space wolves and sons of dorn outright refused to do such a thing. The BA, white scars and others didn't have nearly the numbers to argue.


Gree said:


> Sorry not so. That is a huge exaggeration of the events itself. Dorn himself was equally stubrron on comparable issues, if nto more so.


In every text I've ever read beyond some subtle lines between Dorn and Gulliman himself, he's portrayed as a gigantic asshat who needs to feel special at all times.



Baron Spikey said:


> The Khan and Corax also liked him, but I suppose that wouldn't really fit with your grandiose and inaccurate claims, ah well.


It'd fit better if you'd use things like sources and verification more than falling back on your position as a moderator, but hey that's thinking logically.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

When reading the latest novel in the Heresy, we also see that Logar was shamed to much greater extent than Alpharius by both Guilliman and the Emperor. We see his consistancy in trying to make legions more effective towards the Great Crusade. 

I wonder if he did it because he knew Logar would feel a more personal hurt than the other legions. We don't know much about how Guilliman reacted towards other legions who weren't accomplishing much during the crusade. Perhaps it was because he saw much potential in Logar and his legion or simply because he was an asshole and crept upon Logar's pride. It seems like he tried to do the same to Alpharius.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> It'd fit better if you'd use things like sources and verification more than falling back on your position as a moderator, but hey that's thinking logically.


Actually I was falling back on my position of knowing more than you, but whatever.

Both the Khan and Corax fully supported and contributed towards the Codex Astartes, the Khan is one of 4 loyal Primarchs (excluding Guilliman himself) who has a statue on Macragge, he presented a kingly gift of the finest horses from his herd to his brother (considering the Civilisation Jagahatai hailed from that could be considered to have been a gift beyond price).

Whilst there is no record of Corax ever fist bumping Guilliman or similar the Raven Guard IA article only suggests Corax disliked one of his brothers, Horus who he considered overly manipulative and boastful (that sounds like the opposite of Guilliman).


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> It's one of the defining moments and since it involves my legion I know ample amounts about it.


So do I. I have had this same discussion a thousand times over on many forums. I'm not going to bother to argue that point with you. You are obviously an Alpha Legion fan and probably won't change your mind.



LordWaffles said:


> Proof beyond Horus and Dorn?I've never heard of him getting along well with anyone or anything that wasn't an ultramehreen, so this is news to me if it is beyond a doubt true.


The Black Templar codex states that Khan and Corax supported him. Three other statues where said to exist on Macragge alongside Dorn, however it is not specified as to who they are. Guilliman was described in the Iron Warrior IA as putting his pride aside to rescue Dorn. Corax was noted in the Raven Guard IA to welcome the Codex Astartes. The Ultramarines were one of the Legions to have Librarians in A Thousand Sons, implying that Guilliman was on good enough terms with Magnus to allow the Librarian program (Which Magnus is described as setting up among the Legions) to go ahead. And of course Sanguinius appearantly got along well with everybody. 

Guilliman himself appearantly hit it off great with the Emperor when they first met in the Ultramarine Index Astartes. This is renforced in Index Astartes Word Bearers (Where the Emperor champions Guilliman)



> While the Emperor had chastised the Word Bearers, they watched with jealous hearts as he championed the Ultramarines as his finest warriors


I'm not saying Guilliman was universally popular, but he had his friends.



LordWaffles said:


> In comparison to Horus who made allies from nearly all the traitors, or the Salamander's leader who was held in high standing?
> Of course he'd beg Dorn to let him help him, he didn't trust anyone with anything and he had to mary sue it up for them.


Actually Guilliman is described as putting his pride away for Dorn.

IA Iron Warriors



> Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue


Guilliman ''pleads'' and is described as putting his pride before his Imperium in order to save his brother. Dorn has a statue on Macragge. This does not sound like the actions of a selfish man.



LordWaffles said:


> Not really, Guilliman was the only one besides the high lords pushing for such a travesty, the space wolves and sons of dorn outright refused to do such a thing. The BA, white scars and others didn't have nearly the numbers to argue.


Actually the Blood Angels codex describes them as one of the first Legions to adopt the Codex. It's stated they view it positively and follow it closely. Khan and Corax are described as following it in the Black Templar Codex. In the Battlefleet Gothic supplement Guilliman is recorded to amend fleet aspects acccording to Corax's arguments.

In fact IA Raven Guard has Corax react positively to the Codex.



> Amongst many of the Primarchs there was resistance, but Corax welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true. Thus the Raven Guard were to give rise to three other Chapters: the Black Guard, the Revilers and the Raptors.


That does not sound like someone who was forced into agreeing. Indeed, Corax actually _welcomes_ it.



LordWaffles said:


> In every text I've ever read beyond some subtle lines between Dorn and Gulliman himself, he's portrayed as a gigantic asshat who needs to feel special at all times.


Sorry, apart from the Codex issue (Where Dorn is stated in the Imperial Fists own IA as being blinded by rage from the Emperor's entombment in the Golden Throne) they seem to get along otherwise. In IA Imperial Fists Dorn is described as be saddened by the loss of _each_ of his brothers.

Guilliman is not perfect. I recognise that. However he does have friends among the Primarch and is hardly the complete jerkass you make him out to be.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Tbh The Emperor didn't want Sang or Dorn with him anyway, they didn't fail him at all, Dorn rescued The Emperor when he was nearly dying and Sang gave his life confronting Horus despite the fact he'd gone toe to toe with a Blood Thirster twice.

I said that the only legion who truly failed the Emperor was the Dark Angels because aside from sitting on the fence they also fighted amongst themselves. Every other loyal legion was fighting true traitors while they were fighting their selves.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Guilliman did insult Alpharius, could have been in the Index Astartes article for them. Regardless he did chastise Alpharius for his methods and told him he couldn't possibly compete with the Ultramarines.

Hell i like the fact that Guillimans a dick to some of his brothers, especially Lorgar, gets rid of the whole "i am perfect" image he had before. Makes him more likeable in my eyes


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> The Black Templar codex states that Khan and Corax supported him. Three other statues where said to exist on Macragge alongside Dorn, however it is not specified as to who they are.


I think one of the others was the Khan, I remember reading about the statues someone and The Khan definitely springs to mind.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I said that the only legion who truly failed the Emperor was the Dark Angels because aside from sitting on the fence they also fighted amongst themselves. Every other loyal legion was fighting true traitors while they were fighting their selves.


Wrong, the events on Caliban happened after the heresy was over. And The Lion being a fence sitter is not fact either, its speculation by some. I don't believe for a second that he was a fence sitter, Fallen Angels further cemented this, added to the fact that he was part of the fleet hours away from breaking the Seige of Terra


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually I was falling back on my position of knowing more than you, but whatever.


Hahahah good luck.



Baron Spikey said:


> Both the Khan and Corax fully supported and contributed towards the Codex Astartes, the Khan is one of 4 loyal Primarchs (excluding Guilliman himself) who has a statue on Macragge, he presented a kingly gift of the finest horses from his herd to his brother (considering the Civilisation Jagahatai hailed from that could be considered to have been a gift beyond price).


Having more horses than the others does not an asshole unmake. He still is the only primarch to have personally pissed off multiple legions for no other reason then he felt like it, and the need to be superior. I suppose the crux of the argument will change to that since it has been proven that Ultrasmurf wasn't a douche to every being on every planet, just most of them.
So you've got Dorn and Khan, but he alienated Alpharius and Lorgar.


Baron Spikey said:


> Whilst there is no record of Corax ever fist bumping Guilliman or similar the Raven Guard IA article only suggests Corax disliked one of his brothers, Horus who he considered overly manipulative and boastful (that sounds like the opposite of Guilliman).


Meh? It is indeed the opposite of Guilliman, where does the part where your point come in?


Gree said:


> So do I. I have had this same discussion a thousand times over on many forums. I'm not going to bother to argue that point with you. You are obviously an Alpha Legion fan and probably won't change your mind.


I would if you weren't obviously incorrect. In every AL article it makes mention of how Guilliman mocked his tactics for no good reason.


Gree said:


> The Black Templar codex states that Khan and Corax supported him. Three other statues where said to exist on Macragge alongside Dorn, however it is not specified as to who they are. Guilliman was described in the Iron Warrior IA as putting his pride aside to rescue Dorn. Corax was noted in the Raven Guard IA to welcome the Codex Astartes. The Ultramarines were one of the Legions to have Librarians in A Thousand Sons, implying that Guilliman was on good enough terms with Magnus to allow the Librarian program (Which Magnus is described as setting up among the Legions) to go ahead. And of course Sanguinius appearantly got along well with everybody.


I'll grant Dorn, and the Khan, so now you're 2/2 so a net friend community of zero. Magnus was outreaching to anyone who'd listen to him long enough to shove librarians into their sect. He didn't outwardly hate or like anyone. For him spreading magic and gaining knowledge was paramount to say, breathing.



Gree said:


> Guilliman himself appearantly hit it off great with the Emperor when they first met in the Ultramarine Index Astartes. This is reinforced in Index Astartes Word Bearers (Where the Emperor champions Guilliman)


I don't think any primarch was hated by the emperor. It'd be kind of silly to dislike them. Hell the Empra even tried to be friends with hugeass Angron.




Gree said:


> Guilliman ''pleads'' and is described as putting his pride before his Imperium in order to save his brother. Dorn has a statue on Macragge. This does not sound like the actions of a selfish man.


You've got it pinned on this one. I've learned something new.



Gree said:


> Actually the Blood Angels codex describes them as one of the first Legions to adopt the Codex. It's stated they view it positively and follow it closely. Khan and Corax are described as following it in the Black Templar Codex. In the Battlefleet Gothic supplement Guilliman is recorded to amend fleet aspects acccording to Corax's arguments.


Ah this is entirely news to me, the BA steps over the old fluff of Guilliman bringing up the document with the high lords and the likes of Vulkan and Dorn opposing it. 
One would think Corax wouldn't be nearly in the right state of mind to do anything about it. As he was in crushing depression for his heretical monsters. He probably welcomed it because it would forever clense his tribe of being able to do those mutations. Sort of vindication, no?



Gree said:


> Guilliman is not perfect. I recognise that. However he does have friends among the Primarch and is hardly the complete jerkass you make him out to be.


He's the only primarch to outright make two enemies for no other reason then he didn't like them. I'll agree that with Dorn and Khan he saved face by not insulting them in the meetings. But he made dire enemies of Alpharius and Lorgar, both for going outside what he thought was right.
That wouldn't be nearly as bad if he wasn't a complete jerkass. After discussing indignantly with Alpharius, he snubbed his nose at the AL and taunted with a "I've been around longer". Surely not the great diplomat? Although these imperfections might make him more believable as a character, they don't seem to fit in line with making him more likable.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> Wrong, the events on Caliban happened after the heresy was over. And The Lion being a fence sitter is not fact either, its speculation by some. I don't believe for a second that he was a fence sitter, Fallen Angels further cemented this, added to the fact that he was part of the fleet hours away from breaking the Seige of Terra


Hmm I'm a little misty on the whole time thing with the reinforcements. He was a fence sitter though, he gave Pertruabo some awesome tanks in the promise he would support Lion El'Johnson as the next Warmaster.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How is that the actions of a fence sitter? Perturabo was en route to Istvaan to aprehend Horus with the other legions, so The Lion gives him the seige weapons to fight Horus and the others with, at the same time asking him for his support when the heresy is over to be the next warmaster. Thats not the actions of a fence sitter at all


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> He still is the only primarch to have personally pissed off multiple legions for no other reason then he felt like it, and the need to be superior. ?


When has he done this? The Alpha Legion maybe, but others?



LordWaffles said:


> but he alienated Alpharius and Lorgar.


Again, Alpharius _maybe_, but Lorgar? It seems Lorgar intiated the hatred between them. The Word Bearers IA makes no mention of Guilliman doing anything to Lorgar and Lorgar's hatred seems more spurred on by the fact that the Emperor championed them.

Even in First Heretic Guilliman was only following orders and showed no emotion and no joy at Lorgar's humiliation. He never did it to be ''superior'' or ''because he felt like it''. Guilliman barely said anything to Lorgar and it was the Emperor who laid down the verbal dressing down.

Plus going by Legion Alpharius seems to be indifferent to Guilliman. Lorgar insults Guilliman in First Heretic but in Legion Alpharius barely mentions him.


LordWaffles said:


> I would if you weren't obviously incorrect. In every AL article it makes mention of how Guilliman mocked his tactics for no good reason.


I'm sorry, that's not how I interpreted it at all. I could get into a discussion on this, but obviously you are not going to change your mind on this one.



LordWaffles said:


> I'll grant Dorn, and the Khan, so now you're 2/2 so a net friend community of zero.


That's ignoring Horus (who got around great with everyone generally) and Sanguinus (Who also got around great).

The rest of the Primarchs may not have been friends exactly, but there is no evidence that Guilliman was hated or disliked by anyone other than Lorgar. I'm not sure with Alpharius, but going by Legion he seemed to be indifferent.

EDIT: In Collected Visions (Visions of Darkness) Lorgar claims that the other primarchs did not respect him and they would only follow Primarchs like Guilliman, Sanguinius, Dorn or Horus. _Lorgar himself_, who hates Guilliman's guts, is admitting that Guilliman commands the respect of other primarchs and that they would follow him. Guilliman's biggest hater is putting him in the same catogory as Sanguinius, Dorn and Horus.



> They would follow the accursed Guilliman, the angelic Sanguinius, or Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists and, of course they would follow Horus, the First Primarch.





LordWaffles said:


> Ah this is entirely news to me, the BA steps over the old fluff of Guilliman bringing up the document with the high lords and the likes of Vulkan and Dorn opposing it.


As far as I know the Blood Angel's reorganization was never covered before in fluff. Vulkan and Dorn's descisions should not have any affect on them.



LordWaffles said:


> One would think Corax wouldn't be nearly in the right state of mind to do anything about it. As he was in crushing depression for his heretical monsters. He probably welcomed it because it would forever clense his tribe of being able to do those mutations. Sort of vindication, no?


In Battlefleet Gothic Corax appearantly had a discussion with Guilliman over fleet sizes. Appearantly he did not just blindly side with Guilliman. He welcomed him, but appearantly he had some discussion with him.

This does not speak to me of a blind need to redeem oneself.



LordWaffles said:


> He's the only primarch to outright make two enemies for no other reason then he didn't like them.


I'll be generous with you and say _maybe_ Alpharius. However the closest with Lorgar was with the destruction of Monarchia, and even then the Emperor _himself_ ordered that and Guilliman took no pleasure in it. He did not stay and taunt Lorgar. He simply told Lorgar to calm down and said he needed to return to the Crusade. Lorgar was the only one who started the heated words and the only one who physically attacked Guilliman.

In fact Guilliman himself turned the other cheek and ignored Lorgar's attack in him. I'm sure if he asked the Emperor to punish Lorgar for that the Emperor would have (given how disatisfied the Emperor was with Lorgar)



LordWaffles said:


> But he made dire enemies of Alpharius and Lorgar, both for going outside what he thought was right.


Where in the fluff has Guilliman criticised Lorgar? I can't recall Guilliman starting any incidents. The closest you have was when Guilliman himself was ordered by the Emperor himself. In fact it was the Emperor who criticised the Word Bearers and told them to be more like the Ultramarines. Guilliman was mostly silent and emotionless.



LordWaffles said:


> After discussing indignantly with Alpharius, he snubbed his nose at the AL and taunted with a "I've been around longer". Surely not the great diplomat?


Alpharius appears to be an exception. And even then Lorgar thinks that Guilliman coudl lead other Primarchs.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Hahahah good luck.


Cheers I suppose...what am I being wished good luck for?



LordWaffles said:


> Meh? It is indeed the opposite of Guilliman, where does the part where your point come in?


My point was that the only Primarch he is noted as disliking (almost violently) is Horus for the reasons I stated, the fact that Guilliman was nothing like Horus and that Corax completely supported his brother during the break up of the Legions/Codex Astartes (when another of Guilliman's close brothers did not) does suggest a more than neutral relationship.


LordWaffles said:


> Having more horses than the others does not an asshole unmake. He still is the only primarch to have personally pissed off multiple legions for no other reason then he felt like it, and the need to be superior.


 1 Legion, the other just ignored him (ref. _Legion_).





LordWaffles said:


> I would if you weren't obviously incorrect. In every AL article it makes mention of how Guilliman mocked his tactics for no good reason.


Wow I'll have to get a copy of the Index Astartes: LordWaffles Edition, my normal copy just says 

Guilliman _suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt his 'Codex' behaviour...when it became clear Alpharius would not bow to Guilliman's experience and superiority, the older Primarch pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won and told his youngest brother that he could never hope to compare

_Which part of that is mocking? Guilliman correctly points out that the Alpha Legion would never compare in terms of victories to his, which is a fair point considering the UM had been campaigning for a century or more by this point and were the largest Legion by a large margin. Hell most of Guilliman's brothers who had been campaigning as long as him didn't have as many victories.
_Legion_ then goes on to show Alpharius views on that conversation, he didn't agree with Guilliman and knew his brother would never agree with him so they just ignored each other. Agree to disagree so to speak.



LordWaffles said:


> I'll grant Dorn, and the Khan, so now you're 2/2 so a net friend community of zero. Magnus was outreaching to anyone who'd listen to him long enough to shove librarians into their sect. He didn't outwardly hate or like anyone. For him spreading magic and gaining knowledge was paramount to say, breathing.


So it's more like 1/1/2 confirmed Dislikes/Neutrals/Like

Edit: Regarding the Codex Astartes- it was created utilising the knowledge of expertise of every Primarch (even the traitors, Perturabo's works on siege craft are included in it) and various other commanders, Guilliman consulted every major military commander rather than just a couple.
It was just the break up the Legions rather than anything else that Vulkan, Russ, and Dorn disagreed with.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Guilliman _suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt his 'Codex' behaviour...when it became clear Alpharius would not bow to Guilliman's experience and superiority, the older Primarch pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won and told his youngest brother that he could never hope to compare_.


While i'm not jumping on the 'Everyone hated Guilliman' train, but i do believe he was tactless with both Alpharius and Lorgar. That above passage can obviously been seen in different ways, but i(note this is how i think of it, not fact) see this as Guilliman getting a little annoyed that Alpharius wouldn't follow his ways and snapped that he would never be as succesful as him. Even if this isn't the case you must admit it is rather tactless on his part. 

As for Lorgar, im undecided, again i think he was rather tactless when dealing with Lorgar afterwards. And while it doesn't give any evidence for this at all, i don't believe he would have appealed to the Emperor to change his mind. I have no grounds for this, and don't expect others to come to the same conclusion, but it's just the impression i got.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> While i'm not jumping on the 'Everyone hated Guilliman' train, but i do believe he was tactless with both Alpharius and Guilliman. That above passage can obviously been seen in different ways, but i(note this is how i think of it, not fact) see this as Guilliman getting a little annoyed that Alpharius wouldn't follow his ways and snapped that he would never be as succesful as him. Even if this isn't the case you must admit it is rather tactless on his part.
> 
> As for Lorgar, im undecided, again i think he was rather tactless when dealing with Lorgar afterwards. And while it doesn't give any evidence for this at all, i don't believe he would have appealed to the Emperor to change his mind. I have no grounds for this, and don't expect others to come to the same conclusion, but it's just the impression i got.


Oh I'm not disagreeing that Guilliman wasn't tactless sometimes, everyone has flaws and sometimes Roboute could be a bit of a douche- but he wasn't mocking, and the end result wasn't that Alpharius hated him.

At Lorgar- yeah he threw at least 1 barb his brother's way but considering Lorgar had just assaulted the Regent of Terra and then smashed Guilliman in the chest with his Crozius I don't think a snide comment was out of order.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> However the closest with Lorgar was with the destruction of Monarchia, and even then the Emperor himself ordered that and Guilliman took no pleasure in it.
> 
> In fact Guilliman himself turned the other cheek and ignored Lorgar's attack in him. I'm sure if he asked the Emperor to punish Lorgar for that the Emperor would have (given how disatisfied the Emperor was with Lorgar)


I agree with your analysis for the most part. This though... I'm not so sure. In a way that was the worst thing Guilliman did to Logar. It showed that Guilliman was so much better than Logar that he didn't even have to defend himself. As for Guilliman not taking satisfaction... I'm not really sure about that either. All we can do is make assumptions. You have your own assumption over the matter which is fine. But I must say, that was quite the most disrespectful display I've seen from a primarch to another primarch yet. Primarly because it was a big surprise indeed to see the Emperor suddenly disaprove of Logar's methods and the fact that the whole planet's accomplishments burned to the ground.

@Spikey Baron, having luck is better than no luck. Hahaha, just teasing both of you. :so_happy:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree with your analysis for the most part. This though... I'm not so sure. In a way that was the worst thing Guilliman did to Logar. It showed that Guilliman was so much better than Logar that he didn't even have to defend himself. As for Guilliman not taking satisfaction... I'm not really sure about that either. All we can do is make assumptions. You have your own assumption over the matter which is fine. But I must say, that was quite the most disrespectful display I've seen from a primarch to another primarch yet. Primarly because it was a big surprise indeed to see the Emperor suddenly disaprove of Logar's methods and the fact that the whole planet's accomplishments burned to the ground.


Well, let me put it like this. Guilliman _showed_ no joy. We don't know how he felt, but he appears to have taken no joy in the fact. I was more responding to LordWaffles assertion that Guilliman did it for shits and giggles. He did not.

We would have to wait for an Ultramarine Heresy novel to see what Guilliman's personal thoughts are.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Well, let me put it like this. Guilliman _showed_ no joy. We don't know how he felt, but he appears to have taken no joy in the fact. I was more responding to LordWaffles assertion that Guilliman did it for shits and giggles. He did not.
> 
> We would have to wait for an Ultramarine Heresy novel to see what Guilliman's personal thoughts are.


I for one do believe Guilliman did it the way he did it because he was arrogant. But honestly, many primarchs were very arrogant. Guilliman had a case in both Alpharius' and Logar's "bashings." Alpharius liked to win his battles perfectly, some can even go as far to speculate that they rivaled Guilliman's tactics (of course Guilliman also had many more years to show his accomplishments than Alpharius did). 

I don't remember the exact fluff on the story. But it was something like the Alpha Legion spent many months attacking a fortress and basically destroyed the opposition with losing less then ten astartes. Guilliman responded in the lines of something that Alpharius spent much time and bolter rounds when he could have just destroyed it and moved on with the crusade. 

There are a few ways of looking at it. One, Guilliman just had a large voice in the matter of how the Crusade was fought. Which can be further shown when it seems that Guilliman might have told the Emperor what happened in the Ghenna Scouring. I doesn't flat out say so, but I do believe the Ultramarines took part of it at the end. The World Eaters just charged a fortress getting themselves killed and in rage killed everyone in it. 

Another look, is that competing legions like Logar's loyal worlds and Alpharius' great tactics made Guilliman call them out in showing their so called flaws, so that he could be the favored primarch.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think they failed the Emperor, they were faced with overwhelming odds and would have suceeded had the Empeor not risen to Horus bait and fought him. Point i was making was if you say the Imperial Fists failed the Emperor by not protecting him, then they all did, and like i said the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars would have successfully defended the Emperor had he not gone to Horus and waited a few more hours for the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines to arrive


But you have to look at the reasons as to why they were facing overwhelming traitor forces during the Siege of Terra. Let's face it, Hours outplayed and outclassed Dorn at every turn. Regardless of whether or not Dorn could have done more to protect the Emperor, he _felt_ as though he had failed, and that was enough.



LordWaffles said:


> He's the only primarch to outright make two enemies for no other reason then he didn't like them. I'll agree that with Dorn and Khan he saved face by not insulting them in the meetings. But he made dire enemies of Alpharius and Lorgar, both for going outside what he thought was right.
> That wouldn't be nearly as bad if he wasn't a complete jerkass. After discussing indignantly with Alpharius, he snubbed his nose at the AL and taunted with a "I've been around longer". Surely not the great diplomat? Although these imperfections might make him more believable as a character, they don't seem to fit in line with making him more likable.


He didn't make an enemy out of Alpharius at all. During a tactical discussion he criticised the Alpha Legion's record/methods - knowing that they would never match the quantity of victories the Ultramarines had, thus validating his own tactics. Alpharius suggests in _Legion_ that there was no real enmity between them, in fact he states that he simply ignores Guilliman. 

As for Lorgar, well most Primarchs never saw eye to eye with him due to his abnormal beliefs. Guilliman became the focal point for Lorgar's frustration (which eventually turned into hatred) as the Ultramarines were lauded as the example Legion - everything the Word Bearers _should_ have been. This was further reinforced by the Emperor himself by Guilliman being present in the ashes of Monarchia.

It was an irrational hatred really, a symbol of Lorgar's rejection of everything he was intended to be.

Other than that though, Guilliman is generally seen to have had acceptable to good relations with his brothers. Horus even notes in _Horus Rising_ that he needs the backing of Guilliman in order for his role as Warmaster to be successful, he looked up to Guilliman for such approval as a younger sibling would look up to an older brother.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

seems to me that wether you love him or loathe him the powers that be will always look to the UM as the exeplonary leigon, something he has to be applauded for i suppose but the one thing i will say and i have already stated i am not a UM fan although i do like Ventris and the 4th, at least you knew where you stood with Gulliman, there as no grey areas it was black or white, agree with him or not you knew where you stood and that in itself has to be lauded. 
who knows if maybe he had got to Horus first things might have turned out different as CoTE says, Horus did look up to Gulliman he knew he could always count on a straight answer from Gulliman just as he could Dorn or Sanguinus.
had he courted advice from the UM patriach things might well have been so much different.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But you have to look at the reasons as to why they were facing overwhelming traitor forces during the Siege of Terra. Let's face it, Hours outplayed and outclassed Dorn at every turn. Regardless of whether or not Dorn could have done more to protect the Emperor, he _felt_ as though he had failed, and that was enough.


I agree, said so before, Dorn and the Fists may have felt they failed the Emperor, but they didn't really, no more than any of the other legions did anyway


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Everyone felt like they failed. Well Russ and Dorn in any case.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Where the discussion of the Primarchs is concerned, I think the main issue at hand is that we all naturally approach our critiques of such people with our own value systems.

I look at the Primarchs, and I think of other people in positions of power, authority, status, wealth, celebrity, etc. Famous athletes and other sorts often strike me as being tremendously arrogant. I think about it a little further, though, and I consider how universal this seems to be... and then I consider whether what I construe as arrogance is, in fact (not always, but often enough), the self-belief and drive that is necessary to succeed at such a prominent stage. A self-belief that is reinforced by one's, no offense intended, superior attributes--whether that's physicality, looks, business acumen, charisma, etc.

And there is no stage more prominent, or more defining, than that of a Primarch. Primarchs come off as arrogant, but really it's that sense of self-belief coupled with the knowledge that they *are* designed to be the smartest, strongest, most charismatic beings in the Galaxy.

When there are only eighteen such beings out there, and they happen to be brothers, there will competition. When their life is defined by violence on a galactic scale, those interactions will eventually bear poison fruit.



Angel of Blood said:


> ... but i guarantee a large portion of the population would have no hope of becoming astartes because they aren't good enough, a 'side effect' of a nice lifestyle.


They don't *have* a "nice" lifestyle, though. Military training and service is compulsory for everyone. They're not even allowed to live with their families until they are thirty years of age (a nod to Sparta's own laws).



> ... if you take away the hardships of the [Baal] and let them live in a nice protected biome, you now still have a very low population, of which its likely only the minority will be good enough to pass the trials of becoming an astartes.


If they did that, the human population would boom within a generation by virtue of not being murdered left or right, or succumbing to radiation poisoning, malnutrition, etc.

If they did that while maintaining a strict, life-long military regimen over the people of Baal, they would have an expanding population with the traits needed to make it through Astartes selection.

Ultimately, we may have to agree to disagree on this. I simply cannot come to terms with the idea that inflicting the worst kind of life-long physical damage on a person somehow serves as the equalizer to only having a pool of 20,000 or so viable candidates every year for Astartes selection (120,000 or so, divided by two for males, further divided to arrive at the appropriate age group).

Baal teaches hardship and survival to these kids for a maximum of 12 or so years. Macragge (and Ultramar by extension) teaches ethics, exemplary mental discipline and physical fitness, and a gamut of fighting skills. I simply don't see how the former outweighs the latter in any meaningful way. I'm not saying the Baal way doesn't serve a purpose; I'm simply saying it's not necessary.

EDIT:

The more I think about it, the "necessary" aspect of Baal has comparatively little to do with physical challenges, hardship, etc., when compared to the religious aspect. The tribes that allied with Sanguinius when he first arrived there deified him. The Blood Angels themselves are one of the Chapters that deify the Emperor. In that sense, the religious imperative of maintaining links with the tribes that worshipped Sanguinius, himself the son of a god, would be tremendous. Leaving the planet in the conditions the son of the god found it in, and maintaining the conditions his worshippers defined themselves under would also be very important.

In a way, it's kind of like in the Dune novels. The Fremen defined themselves by the hardships/way of life of their desert planet. Even when the technology was made available to them to change their planet, the warriors among them resented such a transformation. On the other hand, the Fremen were neither starving nor irradiated!

I can imagine the Blood Angels having to face similar considerations, though.

Cheers,
P.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

once again Phoebus you have put a consciese arguement across for your opinion if i could rep you for that post i would


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm just happy it came across as something more than a rant. :biggrin:

Thanks!


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