# Twin lightening claws or thunder hammers and shields



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

well im building a cc deathwing terminator squad i was just wondering wheat ou guys think. i cant decide what weapons to go with, the twin lightening claws or the thunder hammer and shield. I will be fielding belial with them so they will get an extra attack with him. which is better?


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thunder hammers if ur going after tanks or MC's
Claws if u want to wipe out infantry

Give them furious charge if u can :grin:

With the thunder hammers u can only use them once per turn (like a power fist) the rest of the attacks will be at base.
The lightning claws cos you got them in pairs you can use them for every attack. Might be something to think about. (No saves, re-rolls to wound)


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## screenedwings (Mar 5, 2010)

I would use lightning claws......


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Emporers Champion said:


> With the thunder hammers u can only use them once per turn (like a power fist) the rest of the attacks will be at base.
> The lightning claws cos you got them in pairs you can use them for every attack. Might be something to think about. (No saves, re-rolls to wound)


Steady on champ. I think you'll find that both weapon type benefits will apply to all attacks.

Since deathwing get the crappy storm shields it's a bit of a tossup. I'd stick with making every member of the squad different with some non assault only models in the squad to maximise the benefits of wound allocation.

~ 
1 with heavy weapon
1 with twin claws
1 with TH and SS
1 standard
1 sarge (upgrade power weapon to chainfist if you can)


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

OddJob said:


> 1 with heavy weapon
> 1 with twin claws
> 1 with TH and SS
> 1 standard
> 1 sarge (upgrade power weapon to chainfist if you can)


This is a good idea, but wouldnt it be pointwise better to give the Sgt either claws or TH+SS and one trooper a Chainfist? Its bound to be more expensive to upgrade a PW to a Chainfist then upgrading a PF to a CF:wink:


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Steady on champ. I think you'll find that both weapon type benefits will apply to all attacks.


Page 42 BRB - Power fists, thunder hammers, lightning claws are an exception to the rule, only models fighting with two of these weapons get to use them for all attacks.

So twin lightning claws can be used for all attacks, thunder hammer and storm shield just once per turn!

Also Oddjob, you cant set a termie squad up like that because you taking weapons from both a normal termie squad and a termie assault squad, has to be one or the other.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

i already have a shooty squad.
1 powerfist and assault cannon
2 power fist and storm botler
3 chain fist and storm bolter
4 chainfist and storm bolter
5 serge with power sword and storm bolter

so im looking for a pure cc squad. i am open to mixing the sqds with thunder hammers and lightning claws if that actually works. At the moment im swinging to all lightening claws. Though as i said iam open to suggestions.

P.S i will put cyclone missile launchers on one of the cc squad. just for a bit of shooty power.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Emporers Champion said:


> Page 42 BRB - Power fists, thunder hammers, lightning claws are an exception to the rule, only models fighting with two of these weapons get to use them for all attacks.
> 
> So twin lightning claws can be used for all attacks, thunder hammer and storm shield just once per turn!


I'm sorry but what? Thats not how it works Emperor's Champion. If you have any of those weapons, then all of your attacks are used and all of them get whatever bonus the given weapon gives. (Powerfists and thunder hammers double user strength, a lightning claw gives re-rolls and all three ignore saves.)

However, if you have a powerfist/thunder hammer/lightning claw and any other weapon that is not a duplicate of the first then you cannot claim a bonus attack for two close combat weapons. 


What part of page 42 even gives you this idea that if you do not have a double of the weapon then you only get to make a single attack with the first one?



Also Emperor's Champion, this isn't a squad from the normal marine codex. Deathwing terminators, its already been said two or three times in this thread, how many times have you heard that for codex marine terminators? This is for a terminator squad using the Dark Angels codex, and they are not restricted to all assault terminators or all normal ones, they get one squad and get to mix and match the overall loadout.


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thats the way it made sense it me. 

Im very sorry if im wrong. I appoligise to all concerned, ill not try and help out in future.

Its only a game at the end of the day, no need to be an asshole. Oh i forgot your a Mod, you can be.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Emporers Champion said:


> Thats the way it made sense it me.
> 
> Im very sorry if im wrong. I appoligise to all concerned, ill not try and help out in future.
> 
> Its only a game at the end of the day, no need to be an asshole. Oh i forgot your a Mod, you can be.


Childish much? You got things wildly wrong and others corrected you. None of it was a personal attack.

As a friendly suggestion, since you don't have much experience with the game, it might be a better idea to lurk more until you do have the experience required to contribute in a meaningful manner.



MaidenManiac said:


> This is a good idea, but wouldnt it be pointwise better to give the Sgt either claws or TH+SS and one trooper a Chainfist? Its bound to be more expensive to upgrade a PW to a Chainfist then upgrading a PF to a CF:wink:


Could be, don't play the DAs myself. First time I got the reference to "My Dark Angel" I nearly wet myself laughing.



FORTHELION said:


> so im looking for a pure cc squad. i am open to mixing the sqds with thunder hammers and lightning claws if that actually works. At the moment im swinging to all lightening claws. Though as i said iam open to suggestions.
> 
> P.S i will put cyclone missile launchers on one of the cc squad. just for a bit of shooty power.


The problem with this strategy is that you get so few squads and they are so slow that it is very difficult to make any of them specialist.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MaidenManiac, in regards to the chainfist thing; deathwing terminators pay the same price to replace a powerfist or power weapon with a chainfist, and they all have the same number of attacks.


FortheLion, I agree with OddJob:

one with cyclone, one with twin claws, one with TH and SS, one standard, and one sarge with chainfist if you can spare the points for it.

Or maybe even consider giving Belial the lightning claws and doubling up on the thunder hammers? Six or eight attacks from those things along with lightning claw attacks from Belial is just brutal.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah sounds good. dr and oj.
heres a thought combining the two squads which would look like this.

1st squad.
1 twin lightening claws
2 thunder hammer and storm shield
3 powerfist and storm bolter.
4 chain fist storm bolter and cyclone missile launcher.
5 serge powersword and storm bolter.

2nd squad.
1 twin lightening claws
2 assault cannon and powerfist
3 thunder hammer and ss
4 chainfist and storm bolter
5 serge twin lightening claws.

not sure if that makes sense to you guys but i quite like the idea of being able to shoot when i use deathwing assault as i cant assault on the first turn after deepstriking. so mixing cc and shooty termies probably works a bit better.
or would i be better deathwing assaulting my shooty termies as normal.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Looks decent- the only thing I'd say is that it's generally worth using the sarge as an upgraded model as his power sword generally isn't as good as a powerfist. I like the idea of upgrading to a chainfist.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

so do you think i should get rid of the powersword on the serge and replace with a chainfist. and leave the squads as above?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Looks decent- the only thing I'd say is that it's generally worth using the sarge as an upgraded model as his power sword generally isn't as good as a powerfist. I like the idea of upgrading to a chainfist.


In my experience it's useful to have the Serg strike in I order...in fairness, he's a bullet catcher anyway.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

I run a pure DW list and if you're going to go with a focussed cc Squad take 4 TLC's, 1 Heavy Flamer/CFist...but only go that route if you give them a Land Raider, a Crusader is best. Attach a Chaplain and they will wipe the floor with most enemy units.

Otherwise a mixed Squad to stop wound allocation sillyness is a good setup if your usual opponents actually bother with that. The effect of a mixed squad can mean that your Squad is not as focussed as it could be though....putting some TLC and/or TH & SS into a shooty Squad means that for some of the time you're not getting maximum firepower.

In the end you need to weigh up what's best for the overall coherency of the entire list, because been as outnumbered as you are every unit needs to support the other, especially shooty ones.

my 2c anyway.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm curious now, do Deathwing Terminators have 2 wounds each? I've never played against or fielded a Deathwing army and don't have the codex.

If they don't, doesn't that render wound allocation pointless?


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

Trying to do everything with one squad just means itll do nothing very well and everything badly.

Make it a shooty OR a CC squad otherwise your squads wont be as effective. 

Jack of all trades, master of none.

By all means take a heavy weapon, but I wouldnt mix in shooty terms with CC terms is such equal amounts...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Deathwing Terminators can't compare to regular SM Terminators at EITHER aspect - their only strength is in versatility.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Deathwing Terminators can't compare to regular SM Terminators at EITHER aspect - their only strength is in versatility.


Unless my codex if out of date, and it very might well be, im pretty sure that any term can take CC weapons thus making it possible to make a CC specialised squad?

Alternatively, you can have a shooty squad with a heavy weapon, just like a standard term squad...no?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Assault Terminators do not have any Heavy options in the regular SM Dex. You are using this one, right? http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...30101010_40kCodexSpaceMarinesMain_224x160.jpg

No guys in a regular Term squad can have LCs, or TH/SS either.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Assault Terminators do not have any Heavy options in the regular SM Dex. You are using this one, right? http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...30101010_40kCodexSpaceMarinesMain_224x160.jpg
> 
> No guys in a regular Term squad can have LCs, or TH/SS either.


lol yeah thats what I mean, youd take all CC or all shooty, just like standard codex SM.

The DA codex allowing you to take 4 CC terms and a heavy weapon if you want.

But your still specialising. i.e NOT taking 2 terms with storm bolters, 2 with claws and a sgt.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Ah! I understand. All the same, I find, having played against them a lot, that it's very frustrating trying to down them with small arms, even with just one Wound each. The small unit size also prevents them ever being truly effective at either role - and when they're Troops it's all the more important they are :
a) More survivable
b) More versatile

...Even if it's less of a boost than I think we'd all like. I'd much prefer not to relax when I see my opponent is using such a nerfed Codex. Either I get sloppy, or it makes my victory hollow and unrewarding.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Ah! I understand. All the same, I find, having played against them a lot, that it's very frustrating trying to down them with small arms, even with just one Wound each. The small unit size also prevents them ever being truly effective at either role - and when they're Troops it's all the more important they are :
> a) More survivable
> b) More versatile
> 
> ...Even if it's less of a boost than I think we'd all like. I'd much prefer not to relax when I see my opponent is using such a nerfed Codex. Either I get sloppy, or it makes my victory hollow and unrewarding.


agreed, if being used as troops then a good mix of CC and firepower would be most useful.

Hollow victories are no fun 

Should be pedal to the metal chaos and carnage until the last dice roll, everything depending on that last assault


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

HOBO said:


> I run a pure DW list and if you're going to go with a focussed cc Squad take 4 TLC's, 1 Heavy Flamer/CFist...but only go that route if you give them a Land Raider, a Crusader is best. Attach a Chaplain and they will wipe the floor with most enemy units.


They'll wipe the floor with most general units, but not really any cc specialists- thats the rub, with a few powerfists/chainfists in the mix they are already 95% as effective as they possibly can be in assault, but they also retain a modicum of shooting ability and wound allocation crazyness. They also don't need a Land Raider to be effective. If you absolutely must go for a cc squad I do quite like your setup though.

For those who don't understand how the wound allocation works...an example:

30 dakkagants firing-
90 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/6 = 3.75 ~ 4 dead terminators. Ouch. However, this is not strictly true as all it means is that you are expected to roll ~ four ones. Since each model is rolling ~ 4-5 saves there is a good chance that a single model will fail multiple saves- the extras will not carry and thus be wasted. Similar schenanigans can be pulled when allocating lethal plasma shots or the like.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

darkreever said:


> MaidenManiac, in regards to the chainfist thing; deathwing terminators pay the same price to replace a powerfist or power weapon with a chainfist, and they all have the same number of attacks...


Same number of attacks and stuff I knew, but I honestly didnt think it was the same price to make a PW into a CF as making a PF into a CF, sounds like it should be a lot more expensive for the PW, but whatever, thats obviously how it is 



Sethis said:


> I'm curious now, do Deathwing Terminators have 2 wounds each? I've never played against or fielded a Deathwing army and don't have the codex.
> 
> If they don't, doesn't that render wound allocation pointless?


I personally find it a lot more assuring to roll more separate saves. It most likely eliminates the classical 9 saves 4 dead Terminators shit that tend to happen way to often:wink:

Id much rather roll 2 saves for each model and 1 for the THWmodel!


*Edit* Bah, completely missed page 2 :blush: See Oddjobs post above for a good example of this!


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> Same number of attacks and stuff I knew, but I honestly didnt think it was the same price to make a PW into a CF as making a PF into a CF, sounds like it should be a lot more expensive for the PW, but whatever, thats obviously how it is


I'm with you on that, it makes sense that it should cost more; but I guess between being more points than a normal squad and not being able to take more than their starting number per squad they had to give them some break regardless of how small a one it may be.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

darkreever said:


> I'm with you on that, it makes sense that it should cost more; but I guess between being more points than a normal squad and not being able to take more than their starting number per squad they had to give them some break regardless of how small a one it may be.


Yea, they sure have enough "flaws" to make up for that...


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

so here goes it guys if your all interested. my two squads are finalised

1st squad.
1 twin lightening claws
2 thunder hammer and storm shield
3 twin lightening claws.
4 chain fist storm bolter and cyclone missile launcher.
5 serge powersword and storm bolter.

2nd squad.
1 powerfist and storm bolter
2 assault cannon and powerfist
3 thunder hammer and ss
4 chainfist and storm bolter
5 serge twin lightening claws

what do you guys think?


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

FORTHELION said:


> so here goes it guys if your all interested. my two squads are finalised
> 
> 1st squad.
> 1 twin lightening claws
> ...


thatll rack up some kills :victory:


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

FORTHELION said:


> so here goes it guys if your all interested. my two squads are finalised
> 
> 1st squad.
> 1 twin lightening claws
> ...


I'd very much like to see your complete list, because that way it's easier to put your choices into context...a DW list needs all of the different elements to work together and support each other.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

well full list is as follows. (its not finished yet) But so far.

Belial

2 squads of deathwing terminators (as above)

2 squads of ravenwing bikers (3 bikers in each squad. 4 upgraded with melta guns)

1 ironclad dreadnought (seismic hammer hurricane bolters and meltagun)

1 squad of veterans

1 tac squad (missile launcher, flamer)

1 tac squad (missile launcher, flamer)

1 tac squad (meltagun, plasma cannon)

Thats about it so far.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Yes, I would go with a mixed squad because Assault-based ones with TLC's and /or TH & SS etc are best out of LRC's really.

Your 2 squads are very good...I'd even drop the 2nd pair of TLC's from that first squad and add even more shooting.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I'm curious now, do Deathwing Terminators have 2 wounds each? I've never played against or fielded a Deathwing army and don't have the codex.
> 
> If they don't, doesn't that render wound allocation pointless?


Not quite, its just more marginal. For example you 5 man TH/SS squad takes 10 wounds and you fail 3 saves, then 3 guys die. With a 5 man differentiated squad you have to allocate 2 wounds to each. Now on average out of the 10 dice you'll still fail 3 but two of those wounds might be on one guy. Thus you only lose 2 instead of three. 

Like I say it's marginal but does have an effect.

Aramoro


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

?? I thought DA Codex didn't include the Ironclad...


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah your right it doesnt. I didnt realise it when i bought it. I still use it in friendly games. Most people dont mind. Though obviously in a tournament i wouldnt be able to.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

lol, nps. Dundalk, eh? Any chance of you coming up for Fields of Blood 2010?


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Yeah that sounds great. Didnt know that was on. My brother plays ultrasmurfs so ill team up with him and well enter a team together. Are the tickets on sale yet?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Don't think so, but I'm going into GW tomorrow, so if I get any more info I'll post a thread in the GT and Tourny Forum.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah good thinking. ill look out for that. do many people usually turn up for it?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Last year it was 47. Aiming to get above the 50-mark this year, obvs.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

thats pretty good. should make for a good two days. Ive never been to a gt before so ill have to read up a bit on the rules and stuff


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

claws are the way to go, i love them, they look so COOL!


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