# Blood Gorgons, A Bastion Wars Novel.



## Lord of the Night

When I first looked at it the Bastion Wars series didn't look like much to me. Just another IG novel, so I passed them over. Now im interested and why?, because the Chaos Space Marines are getting their own novel about this war.










The Blood Gorgons, a warband of Khornate Chaos Space Marines. This novel is going to be bloody , but sadly it doesn't come out until next January. So we can imagine a December release for most.


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## dark angel

The cover looks awesome. Sadly, I really forced myself through the first fifty-hundred pages of Emperor's Mercy before I decided to put it down. However I do plan to pick it up again and will do so very soon more than likely. Not sure why I couldn't get into it, maybe because Henry Zou is a new writer. Seeing how good the cover is, it would be a big shame for the book to turn out rubbish.


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## bobss

Lord of the Night said:


> When I first looked at it the Bastion Wars series didn't look like much to me. Just another IG novel, so I passed them over. Now im interested and why?, because the Chaos Space Marines are getting their own novel about this war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Blood Gorgons, a warband of Khornate Chaos Space Marines. This novel is going to be bloody , but sadly it doesn't come out until next January. So we can imagine a December release for most.


I agree with Dark Angel - the cover _does_ look awesome. I haven`t read any of Zou`s work, so I can`t comment on his writing style. His first few books were Guard books were they not? Which, to a paltry extent redeems me of not picking any of his stuff up, although with this upon the Horizon I may get - or force - my way through the first novel(s?) of the series just so that I can get to this.

_Blood Gorgons?_ got to admit I love the name, though im slightly put of by 'pure' Khorne based books from _Hammer of Daemons_ with the Grey Knight being forced to fight and later escape the Chaos world. God I hated that book... 

Bloody? Is that your word, or what the book is supposed to be? because, in reality, ive generally never read a Black Library book that is truly horrific... some of my own stuff is probably worse...:laugh:

Anyway, thanks for this, and do you have anymore info on any of the to-be books?


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## Lord of the Night

bobss said:


> I agree with Dark Angel - the cover _does_ look awesome. I haven`t read any of Zou`s work, so I can`t comment on his writing style. His first few books were Guard books were they not? Which, to a paltry extent redeems me of not picking any of his stuff up, although with this upon the Horizon I may get - or force - my way through the first novel(s?) of the series just so that I can get to this.
> 
> _Blood Gorgons?_ got to admit I love the name, though im slightly put of by 'pure' Khorne based books from _Hammer of Daemons_ with the Grey Knight being forced to fight and later escape the Chaos world. God I hated that book...
> 
> Bloody? Is that your word, or what the book is supposed to be? because, in reality, ive generally never read a Black Library book that is truly horrific... some of my own stuff is probably worse...:laugh:
> 
> Anyway, thanks for this, and do you have anymore info on any of the to-be books?


I haven't read any of Henry Zou either. IG novels dont appeal to me. But im in the same boat, ill probably read them just to read this. The other books in the series are Emperor's Mercy, currently released, and Flesh and Iron, to be released in April.

I enjoyed that book quite a lot. But we'll see about the Blood Gorgons, no guarantee yet they are Khornate marines but the name does point towards that.

I meant that if they are Khornate marines then so much blood will be shed for the blood god 

Ill keep up with the updates as they come.


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## xClampy

I like Henry Zou. He has a similar style to that of Dan Abnett, and I think thats his downfall, as there is only one Abnett!

Planetkill, has the first story by Henry Zou in it called Voidsong. Its Inquisitor Roths first run out, and although only 50 pages long I thought it was pretty good. I havent read Emperors Mercy (yet!, as soon as I finish Salamander, Ill be straight on it), but I heard it action packed to the over the top level, which in all fairness is why I like these books, as I want to read battles. I love the 40k genre, as its pure violence, and thats how it should be. Blood, slaughtering, aliens and carnage!

I'm guessing from the looks of these novels switching to different sides, Inquisition, IG, CSM, Ill assume that there will be a Space Marine book in there at some point.


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## bobss

Likewise, I just found this- 










Which has wetted my appetite even more


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

When I saw Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill were both giving quotes for the back of _Soul Hunter_, I was so childishly happy that I gigglingly read them out to the listeners at my next reading.


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## Khorne's Fist

dark angel said:


> Sadly, I really forced myself through the first fifty-hundred pages of Emperor's Mercy before I decided to put it down.


I forced my way through the whole thing. I don't think I'll be going back for any more of Mr. Zou's work. I couldn't really put my finger on it, but there's something about his writing style that just made reading it hard work. I never really got to like any of the characters, so by the end of the book I was kind of rooting for the bad guys, as I didn't care what happened to Roth and his comrades. 

As to the Abnett quote, he never actually says the book is good. To me it's like he was trying to be as nice as he could about something he didn't like, while not actually lying about it.


> Crunchy, vivid and memorable.


 I would describe my mother-in-law's cooking in a similar way, but by no means would it be complimentary.:biggrin:

Oh and to those of you who think it's IG novel, it's actually about an Inquisitor trying to keep a doomsday weapon out of the hands of invading chaos forces.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> When I saw Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill were both giving quotes for the back of _Soul Hunter_, I was so childishly happy that I gigglingly read them out to the listeners at my next reading.


I nearly bought it the other day, but the pull of the HH was too great. Never fear though, the Night Lords are my next purchase. Apart from Lord of the Night, they haven't got the love they deserve.


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## bobss

Khorne's Fist said:


> I forced my way through the whole thing. I don't think I'll be going back for any more of Mr. Zou's work. I couldn't really put my finger on it, but there's something about his writing style that just made reading it hard work. I never really got to like any of the characters, so by the end of the book I was kind of rooting for the bad guys, as I didn't care what happened to Roth and his comrades.
> 
> As to the Abnett quote, he never actually says the book is good. To me it's like he was trying to be as nice as he could about something he didn't like, while not actually lying about it. I would describe my mother-in-law's cooking in a similar way, but by no means would it be complimentary.:biggrin:


I hightly doubt Abnett is allowed to lie through his teeth, and besides, the comment _may_ not complement the books style, characters, depth/plot, _but_ does comment on how awesome the action is...

But yes, the pull of Heresy novels is always to great... the shiny gilding on the covers.. the artwork... :laugh:


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## Khorne's Fist

bobss said:


> I hightly doubt Abnett is allowed to lie through his teeth,


That's why I said he wasn't lying. But if Abnett gives a quote for your book, however nondescript, a new author is going to sell his soul to Khorne to have it on the cover. Dead.Blue.Clown would seem to agree.


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## bobss

Khorne's Fist said:


> That's why I said he wasn't lying. But if Abnett gives a quote for your book, however nondescript, a new author is going to sell his soul to Khorne to have it on the cover. Dead.Blue.Clown would seem to agree.


I agree that anyone would want to flaunt praise from Abnett upon a cover of their book, but regardless, the actual quote supports what xClampy said- Zou`s writing style having buckets full of action:victory:

On the other hand, is it worth sacrificing near all other elements/ingredients of a good book/writing style, for a large dose of action? I guess it depends upon whether you want an actual _good read_ or just something that just sates your hunger for worded violence...

Either way I may dip into this series (After the rest of the HH, ABD`s books so I can get a review up in time, Gaunt`s Ghosts and the Space Wolf Omnibus`:laugh


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## nestersan

I bought the first Bastion Wars novel, but will not be buying another. Was looking at Reviews of his second book, and saw the following from a poster who has had his post deleted by Amazon comparing Zou's book, and another older title:



> "*Flesh And Iron *
> 
> "He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."
> 
> *House To House * http://www.amazon.com/House-Soldier...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270319138&sr=1-1
> 
> "...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"


Just a bit too similiar to be even considered a "tribute"


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## bobss

nestersan said:


> I bought the first Bastion Wars novel, but will not be buying another. Was looking at Reviews of his second book, and saw the following from a poster who has had his post deleted by Amazon comparing Zou's book, and another older title:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a bit too similiar to be even considered a "tribute"


You are correct, it is similar, and reeks of the pungent aroma of plagliarism. I have heard that the books and series as a whole isn`t particularily groundbreaking neither, so me too, shall not be buying any, despite the gorgeous cover of _Blood Gorgons_


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## Lord of the Night

True thats copying but in the end sometimes thats going to happen, intentionally or unintentionally. Either way a slight bit of copying isn't going to deter me from some well received books, especially one with an epicly badass cover like _Blood Gorgons_.



Black Library said:


> The Blood Gorgons Chaos Space Marines are called to one of their recruiting worlds as the populace is struck down by a plague of mutation. Sargaulis one of few survivors of the first expeditionary force, and is determined to uncover the mysteries on Haute Bassiq. Facing a hostile environment, shadowy xenos enemies and treachery from within his own forces, Sargaul must dig deep into his hatred and determination to leave the planet alive.


Also a preview for Blood Gorgons has been released. Sounds very very nice. And also shadowy xenos?, Dark Eldar perhaps??. I hope so :biggrin:.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

I just read the Amazon review.

Wow.


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## Boc

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I just read the Amazon review.
> 
> Wow.


House to House or Flesh and Iron?

Edit: The House to House review doesn't do it justice, any aspiring writers who want to know the perspective of a soldier on the ground in some serious shit should have a gander at it, quite useful to get an actual feel on events.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Boc said:


> House to House or Flesh and Iron?


The Amazon.co.uk review of F&I, that wasn't deleted. I'm not going to comment on it, except to say I assume BL are aware of the problem.


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## nestersan

Flesh and Iron (Bastion Wars): Amazon.co.uk: Henry Zou: Books is link to Amazon Uk Post

Thing is, we consume a lot of media as geeks, and while I have come across quotations and sayings from other books used in BL novels; eg. In a Blood Angels novel, they had some quotations and sayings from a Japanese Sword Master attributed to one of their marines. While it was kinda jarring to read, the Japanese Master wrote his book in the 1600's or so, and I can understand sorta. Also using a parable or quoting a line from a book on strategy is different from wholesale stealing plot points, characters and scenes.


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## Commissar Ploss

Henry Zou's a cunt...

and yes, that is science...

CP


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## Khorne's Fist

Commissar Ploss said:


> Henry Zou's a cunt...
> 
> and yes, that is science...
> 
> CP


:laugh::laugh::laugh::good: Short and sweet. I like it.


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## Commissar Ploss

Just throw him out along with Chris Roberson.

CP


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## Lord of the Night

What he's done with _Flesh and Iron_ is sheer incredulity. Hopefully he can redeem himself with _Blood Gorgons_.


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## Commissar Ploss

Lord of the Night said:


> What he's done with _Flesh and Iron_ is sheer incredulity. Hopefully he can redeem himself with _Blood Gorgons_.


bullshit, no chance. 

I have made a powerful enemy this day...


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## bobss

Commissar Ploss said:


> bullshit, no chance.
> 
> I have made a powerful enemy this day...


I will admit, that this has.. somewhat soured my opinion of said author and the Bastion series as a whole.. although the rest of you guys, with your _rather_ strong opinions, have also shattered my future neutral opinion, and dually my enjoyment of the series...

.. as with today, I was in Waterstones, saw Emperor`s Mercy and thought '' I really need a 40k novel... um.. ah hah! When in doubt, Gaunts Ghosts..'', and got a nice, thick, juicy, pulsating.... Omnibus (Alongside the second Malus Darkblade Omnibus.. and some Dune fiction..):shok:

But regardless. As others have said, give him a break. I will now _try_ to enjoy the series, when I get around to it, despite its tarnished image.. Besides. With no disrespect at all Dead.Blue.Clown, _Soul Hunter _did have similar aspects to Apocalypse Now, and the Gaunts Ghost`s series, has _alot_ in common with the Sharpe series...


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## dark angel

I don't say the major problem with it, he is a new author and thus is working his way towards the top, everyone has copied something in their work or included similarities. For example the Ghost's are _very_ similar to Sharpe in my opinion, but Abnett is not getting all of this shit for that. Henry Zou is by far from my favourite author, to the extent that I put Emperor's Mercy down and have not even looked at since. Many of you know that the Ghost's are my favourite series other than the Horus Heresy, so I am not favouring one over the other here.

I do, Ploss disagree with you calling him that. Why I do appreciate people having opinions on him, which will only help Mr.Zou in his writing, seriously was that needed? If you don't like him fair enough, but such a word.....I am not going to argue with anyone, I am just trying to get my thoughts through which you will hopefully not take into offence. Flesh and Iron in my opinion, at least from the extract that is on Black Library is far better than the original and thus I will give Mr.Zou another chance, but personally it seems everyone is getting over worked for one little thing that may not have even come from that book. (Family tale perhaps? I don't know, but it would seem everyone has jumped to conclusions all of a sudden when it, in all honesty is not needed).


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## Commissar Ploss

dark angel said:


> I do, Ploss disagree with you calling him that. Why I do appreciate people having opinions on him, which will only help Mr.Zou in his writing, seriously was that needed? If you don't like him fair enough, but such a word.....


I required something substantially volatile, as i was in a right foul mood at the time. So i knicked a word popularized by a good friend, and must admit i feel much better now. 

my comment/opinion still stands, and i stand by it.

CP


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

dark angel said:


> I don't say the major problem with it, he is a new author and thus is working his way towards the top, everyone has copied something in their work or included similarities. For example the Ghost's are _very_ similar to Sharpe in my opinion, but Abnett is not getting all of this shit for that.


I don't really think that's fair. There's a difference between something having a similar concept, and... Well. I'm not going into it. But I defy anyone to read that Zou review and say "Yeah, this is just like Gaunt's Ghosts being like 'Sharpe in Space'."

One's a similar concept. The other... is a bit more.

Also, when people say "It's Sharpe in Space" or "It's similar to Sharpe", they're not saying "It's written similarly, and uses similar characters, phrases, scenes and descriptions." It's an in-depth look at a regiment of soldiers in different war zones over a long series of books, and it's 'like Sharpe' in the sense that Sharpe defines the in-depth look at a regiment of soldiers in different war zones over a long series of books. The concept is similar. That's all.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

bobss said:


> With no disrespect at all Dead.Blue.Clown, _Soul Hunter _did have similar aspects to Apocalypse Now, and the Gaunts Ghost`s series, has _alot_ in common with the Sharpe series...


Uh, no offence, but I'm not comfortable _at all_ with you comparing me to Zou like this. The circumstances are vastly different.

25 years ago, a Legion's primarch was based on _Apocalyse Now_ and _Heart of Darkness_, with direct acknowledgement of source material. That's inescapable, but no other ties exist.

That's not the same as using exact scenes, characters, descriptions and phrases from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs, and passing it off as your own work.

Again, I'm not going to come out and say he actually plagiarised, since it's a legal minefield, but please don't compare me (or Dan Abnett) to that, in this instance. The circumstances are nothing alike.

It's cool if you're awesome to roll with it and ignore/forgive it. But not everyone will be, and it's not cool to say other people act the same way, when they really, really don't.


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## bobss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Uh, no offence, but I'm not comfortable _at all_ with you comparing me to Zou like this. The circumstances are vastly different.
> 
> 25 years ago, a Legion's primarch was based on _Apocalyse Now_ and _Heart of Darkness_, with direct acknowledgement of source material. That's inescapable, but no other ties exist.
> 
> That's not the same as using exact scenes, characters, descriptions and phrases from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs, and passing it off as your own work.
> 
> Again, I'm not going to come out and say he actually plagiarised, since it's a legal minefield, but please don't compare me (or Dan Abnett) to that, in this instance. The circumstances are nothing alike.
> 
> It's cool if you're awesome to roll with it and ignore/forgive it. But not everyone will be, and it's not cool to say other people act the same way, when they really, really don't.


No, I do not openly critisise Dan Abnett, nor his Gaunts Ghosts series, nor even Soul Hunter, in any harsh way, enjoying both alot. But, considering how at the time that Abnett began to write said series he had barely set foot within the Universe of 40k and to a lesser extent Warhammer Fantasy, and so wanted something 'familiar' to grasp hold of. The Imperial Guard in this case. The Prologue to the Founding Omnibus says as much. The shallow end, of a deepening pool for example, with him starting of in an area of relative familiarity. Most likely being the well-read person that he probably is (due to the continued strong prose throughout his work) he would have touched upon, if not read the Sharpe series, so it would only be natural to think that he would draw inspiration, no matter how heavy, from a familiar source.

Onto Zou. Now according to the Black Library site, he is in the Australian Army, so it can be forgiven that he would read fiction from other Veterans. So when he is in turn just taking the first steps within a fictional world that already has severe laws, rules and tomes worth of 'fluff' or background, it can be forgiven for him to draw (albeit perhaps slightly to heavily) upon something familliar to him.

Fundamentally he is doing the same. Sure, it is debatable whether he has crossed the line towards the realm of plagiarism, but ultimately he is just an author wanting to succeed and better himself in his chosen career, and I am not to keen on certain members degrading him and his work so far, perhaps even his future work, on something as trivial as this.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

bobss said:


> Onto Zou. Now according to the Black Library site, he is in the Australian Army, so it can be forgiven that he would read fiction from other Veterans. So when he is in turn just taking the first steps within a fictional world that already has severe laws, rules and tomes worth of 'fluff' or background, it can be forgiven for him to draw (albeit perhaps slightly to heavily) upon something familliar to him.
> 
> Fundamentally he is doing the same. Sure, it is debatable whether he has crossed the line towards the realm of plagiarism, but ultimately he is just an author wanting to succeed and better himself in his chosen career, and I am not to keen on certain members degrading him and his work so far, perhaps even his future work, on something as trivial as this.


Drawing inspiration from something familiar is one thing (though, last I read in an interview, Zou hasn't actually been in combat, so an Iraq War vet's memoirs of house to house searches and killing insurgents aren't all that familiar). But that's not what people are objecting to. People are objecting to the potential of plagiarism here. That has very different boundaries to drawing inspiration from something.

And remember, Dan had worked for Inferno a great deal, too. He wasn't a 40K virgin, and ultimately, Gaunt's Ghosts isn't really much like Sharpe beyond the concept of a regimental series of books. That's the major factor, here.

Plagiarism, and the accusation thereof, is far from "trivial". Remember, you're a BL fan, and you clearly find it easy to overlook/ignore/forgive this. It happens a lot: in this very thread, someone has cited not liking the first book, mentioning the second might draw too heavily on other sources, and they're still prepared to give him a chance on the third. Likewise, with you. Accusations of plagiarism, and direct comparisons to copying from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs aren't enough for to you to turn away from the author, because you like the genre - among other reasons. That's cool - people are free to ignore, forgive and forget however they like. 

You'll see it when it goes more public, too. BL fans will ignore it/forgive it en masse, while others won't.

But to really read that review, with the cited incidents that may or may not constitute plagiarism, and even remotely compare it to a similar concept for something like Gaunt and Sharpe is... well...

Sorry, man. If you _genuinely_ think they're in the same ball park, there's never going to any middle ground between us on this. And seeing as I'm not really clear to post what I think, I've got nothing else to say here.


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## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Drawing inspiration from something familiar is one thing (though, last I read in an interview, Zou hasn't actually been in combat, so an Iraq War vet's memoirs of house to house searches and killing insurgents aren't all that familiar). But that's not what people are objecting to. People are objecting to the potential of plagiarism here. That has very different boundaries to drawing inspiration from something.
> 
> And remember, Dan had worked for Inferno a great deal, too. He wasn't a 40K virgin, and ultimately, Gaunt's Ghosts isn't really much like Sharpe beyond the concept of a regimental series of books. That's the major factor, here.
> 
> Plagiarism, and the accusation thereof, is far from "trivial". Remember, you're a BL fan, and you clearly find it easy to overlook/ignore/forgive this. It happens a lot: in this very thread, someone has cited not liking the first book, mentioning the second might draw too heavily on other sources, and they're still prepared to give him a chance on the third. Likewise, with you. Accusations of plagiarism, and direct comparisons to copying from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs aren't enough for to you to turn away from the author, because you like the genre - among other reasons. That's cool - people are free to ignore, forgive and forget however they like.
> 
> You'll see it when it goes more public, too. BL fans will ignore it/forgive it en masse, while others won't.
> 
> But to really read that review, with the cited incidents that may or may not constitute plagiarism, and even remotely compare it to a similar concept for something like Gaunt and Sharpe is... well...
> 
> Sorry, man. If you _genuinely_ think they're in the same ball park, there's never going to any middle ground between us on this. And seeing as I'm not really clear to post what I think, I've got nothing else to say here.


For not being able to say much, you are pushing the boundaries a little bit. Although i do agree with you. Anyone who plagiarizes, regardless of whether or not you think its forgivable, should be dealt with accordingly. I for one, can't read something i know is blatantly plagiarized. not only because it means you cant think for yourself, but the law gets involved after a while. thats never a good thing.

as an aside. Dead.Blue.Clown, check your PM box for a message from me. the newest one.

CP


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## Elchimpster

We have two separate issues involved here. Plagiarism itself is not technically illegal. It's a breach of ethics. What is illegal is the Breach of Copyright. Related but separate.

From Wikipedia:
Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."

I think one of the things that sets plagiarized work from original work is not so much the originality of the concept but the telling of it in an original voice. Zou may have lifted the overall concept much like George Lucas lifted from Gilgamesh and other stories...but the voice, telling of it if original is considered (IMO at least) original work.

Breach of Copyright is another animal and is dealt with differently depending on where you're from. The US handles it different from the UK etc.

For Breach of Copyright it needs to be proven that it was indeed a duplicate and that the author had access to the duped material etc. and that the duped material was used in a fashion that breaches the copyright (is it different enough to warrant prosecution). That's the US version at least.

The defense likely used here would be "de minimis non curat lex" or "the law does not care about trivial things". Basically if the court decides it's a petty amount of copy (assuming copying is proven) then it gets tossed out. Not infringement.

However, that's a matter for the courts to decide.

Anyhow, they are different yet related issues. One a breach of ethics and naughty. The other flat out illegal and the infringed party can claim compensation. Ugly!

See the following articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism
and the related references within.

PS. As a total aside, I think it is totally inappropriate to say Mr. Zou is a cunt. While I may not care for Author X's writing I say that I don't like his writing. I may even go so far as saying *I* think it sucks. However I won't say X is a greasy turd of a novel because that would be disrespectful of everyone else whose opinion may differ. I damn sure don't call anyone a name because a.) I'm over the age of 12. b.) it's rude. and of course c.) Defamation. It's illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel 
At some point it's possible to go overboard and get yourself and others in trouble. Things like this have a way of coming back and biting people.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Commissar Ploss said:


> Although i do agree with you.
> 
> CP


There's not much to agree with. I'm certainly not saying he plagiarised. I'm not a lawyer; I have no idea about the technicalities, and I have no interest in spewing my personal opinion about it here.

I'm saying, simply, there's no valid comparison between this incidence of plagiarism accusation, and the way Gaunt's Ghosts is a bit like Sharpe, or a primarch is based on a character from a movie in the 70s. 

The latter incidents are just nothing like the former. That's literally all I'm saying.


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## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> There's not much to agree with. I'm certainly not saying he plagiarised. I'm not a lawyer; I have no idea about the technicalities, and I have no interest in spewing my personal opinion about it here.
> 
> I'm saying, simply, there's no valid comparison between this incidence of plagiarism accusation, and the way Gaunt's Ghosts is a bit like Sharpe, or a primarch is based on a character from a movie in the 70s.
> 
> The latter incidents are just nothing like the former. That's literally all I'm saying.


that was what i was attempting to agree with you about. The two incidents don't compare.


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## bobss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Drawing inspiration from something familiar is one thing (though, last I read in an interview, Zou hasn't actually been in combat, so an Iraq War vet's memoirs of house to house searches and killing insurgents aren't all that familiar). But that's not what people are objecting to. People are objecting to the potential of plagiarism here. That has very different boundaries to drawing inspiration from something.
> 
> And remember, Dan had worked for Inferno a great deal, too. He wasn't a 40K virgin, and ultimately, Gaunt's Ghosts isn't really much like Sharpe beyond the concept of a regimental series of books. That's the major factor, here.
> 
> Plagiarism, and the accusation thereof, is far from "trivial". Remember, you're a BL fan, and you clearly find it easy to overlook/ignore/forgive this. It happens a lot: in this very thread, someone has cited not liking the first book, mentioning the second might draw too heavily on other sources, and they're still prepared to give him a chance on the third. Likewise, with you. Accusations of plagiarism, and direct comparisons to copying from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs aren't enough for to you to turn away from the author, because you like the genre - among other reasons. That's cool - people are free to ignore, forgive and forget however they like.
> 
> You'll see it when it goes more public, too. BL fans will ignore it/forgive it en masse, while others won't.
> 
> But to really read that review, with the cited incidents that may or may not constitute plagiarism, and even remotely compare it to a similar concept for something like Gaunt and Sharpe is... well...
> 
> Sorry, man. If you _genuinely_ think they're in the same ball park, there's never going to any middle ground between us on this. And seeing as I'm not really clear to post what I think, I've got nothing else to say here.


Firstly, and most importantly to me, I am rather glad you have taken this well. I truly do not enjoy arguing with authors in the slightest (Despite this being the first occurence of such) and I did enjoy Soul Hunter (Although my view has been minutely tarnished by the Lexicanum article for originality) but that is that, and I do not want to argue, or even idly discuss, if it culminates with my perceptions and enjoyment, once again tarnished.

However. I personnaly, do not hasten to 'disregard' any of Zou`s credibility as an author of such a thing, like other members have done (and dually apologised for their terminology, CP ) Viewed from one angle, then yes it is a major thing, and I can honestly see where you coming from. As an author, to have - presumably - put alot into your work, to only find out that someone has indeed 'skipped' out on this to an extent, would indeed be an irritance put simply, its like - in incredibly childish and crude terms - baking 30 cakes, to only realise someone else has baked only 20, buying the additional 10 

But from the view of a customer, and a fan, I cannot see the major problem with this. If it impacts the book in no negative way at all, if anything enhancing it, then surely it is a beneficial thing, despite its shadowy origin.


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## Commissar Ploss

even if it does benefit the story, he won't get to capitalize on it if he gets sued!

CP


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## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Plagiarism, and the accusation thereof, is far from "trivial". Remember, you're a BL fan, and you clearly find it easy to overlook/ignore/forgive this. It happens a lot: in this very thread, someone has cited not liking the first book, mentioning the second might draw too heavily on other sources, and they're still prepared to give him a chance on the third. Likewise, with you. Accusations of plagiarism, and direct comparisons to copying from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs aren't enough for to you to turn away from the author, because you like the genre - among other reasons. That's cool - people are free to ignore, forgive and forget however they like.


ADB is right on this. Plagiarism is very serious, ive heard of entire series being cancelled because the authors plagiarised parts of them.

Maybe Zou did plagiarise part of Flesh and Iron, maybe he didn't do it intentionally. Sometimes things can be similar, concepts and starting ground. But there is a line when it comes to inspiration or similarity that crosses over into outright plagiarism. _Gaunt's Ghosts_ being similar to another novel series is not plagiarism because the concept is similar, its when the lines, stories and characters become too similar that it crosses the line.


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## World Eater XII

I actually liked the first book and have started to read the second and will continue to do so, however my respect for the author will drop a fair bit!


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## the.alleycat.uk

bobss said:


> Besides. With no disrespect at all Dead.Blue.Clown, _Soul Hunter _did have similar aspects to Apocalypse Now, and the Gaunts Ghost`s series, has _alot_ in common with the Sharpe series...


Huh, really, where do you get that from? You're entitled to your own opinion [but not your own facts] but other than the Night Lords primarch; Conrad Kurze, there seemed to be no parallel in story between Soul Hunter and Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now. 

And Konrad Kurze wasn't conceived by ADB but has been a part of 40k lore for 25+ years and is openly acknowledged as a pastishe [for other such examples: Lion El'Jonson was the author of a piece entitled Angels of Darkness].

As for Dan abnett, i've not read the tTanith books but unless Gaunt has a Large Irish sergeant with a special big gun, a unit of sharpshooters using weapons not yet in general service and commanding a skirmish unit... the only similarity to me would be that it's about a guy who commands some soldiers and has had a bunch of books written about him. [Oh, and he'd have to lose every girl he likes to some mean guy who becomes his enemy.]


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## Lord of the Night

the.alleycat.uk said:


> As for Dan abnett, i've not read the Tanith books but unless Gaunt has a Large Irish sergeant with a special big gun, a unit of sharpshooters using weapons not yet in general service and commanding a skirmish unit... the only similarity to me would be that it's about a guy who commands some soldiers and has had a bunch of books written about him. [Oh, and he'd have to lose every girl he likes to some mean guy who becomes his enemy.]


Actually what you've just put makes them sound alike. Here are some similarities with Gaunt's Ghosts and what you have just said.

Large Irish sergeant with a special big gun - 'Try Again' Bragg
A unit of sharpshooters - The Tanith First and Only
Commanding a skirmish unit - The First and Only is an undersized regiment that specializes in stealth missions and small skirmishes.

Of course there is a lot more to Gaunt's Ghosts then that, just the way you said it makes the similarities appear intended.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually what you've just put makes them sound alike. Here are some similarities with Gaunt's Ghosts and what you have just said.
> 
> Large Irish sergeant with a special big gun - 'Try Again' Bragg
> A unit of sharpshooters - The Tanith First and Only
> Commanding a skirmish unit - The First and Only is an undersized regiment that specializes in stealth missions and small skirmishes.
> 
> Of course there is a lot more to Gaunt's Ghosts then that, just the way you said it makes the similarities appear intended.


See, here's sort of where the difference really should be clearer.

Bragg is nothing like a "large Irish sergeant with a special big gun". Bragg is a large soldier - and there the similarities end. He uses many guns, isn't a sergeant (or any other kind of ranking officer), and isn't remotely Irish. The Ghosts aren't a unit of sharpshooters, they're renowned as scouts. Yes, like all regiments, they have a few snipers. But that's it.

That's trying to draw similarities where none exist, and isn't remotely the same as Zou using character descriptions, scenes, and complete phrases from an Iraq War veteran's memoirs. 

Really, the two are nothing alike. There will be thousands of novels about army regiments over the course of the human race, and you're always going to get certain similar themes if the regiments are a specific type. But that's nothing like what's on display with the Flesh and Iron review.


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## Lord of the Night

I suppose. What he said just made me draw comparisons between them. There are a few similarities but they end pretty easily, although when little detail is used is easy to make them sound alike.


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## World Eater XII

Im sure if you looked hard enough and wasted enough time you could find tiny details to match every dam book and accuse it of plagarism. However in this case it isnt calling on obsucre irish soldier referances.


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## Lord of the Night

World Eater XII said:


> Im sure if you looked hard enough and wasted enough time you could find tiny details to match every dam book and accuse it of plagarism. However in this case it isnt calling on obsucre irish soldier referances.


True enough. Every book has a basis and when compared to others you can see those bases.


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## World Eater XII

Agreed.

Tis different though, having a base for a story isnt illegal(yet) but paraphrasing from another book is.

I think thats the thing people/intertubes get so caught up on.


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## Lord of the Night

Paraphrasing itself has limits. For example copying a quote from some age old text is fine but something recent sets off the copying alarm. Standards are different ranging on what text is copied.


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## World Eater XII

Theres enough dam people on the web that a 1-1,000,000 chance that somebody spots a bit of stealery, turns into 1-5chance!


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## the.alleycat.uk

Lord of the Night said:


> I suppose. What he said just made me draw comparisons between them. There are a few similarities but they end pretty easily, although when little detail is used is easy to make them sound alike.


My Bad, I've really no frame of reference for the tanith books other than the units which was released for 40k, I was simply bringing to mind the most obvious characteristics prevailent throughout the Sharp series [which of themselves call upon eshablished military writing tropes and archetypes, you could argue that Sharpe is similar to Hornblower but on land.]

No sarcasm or allusion was intended, simply that from reading Dan Abnett's other work I thought it highly unlikely that there would be similarities beyond that fact that both series are about units of human soldiers. [I would imagine that smaller units sizes was just more conductive to storytelling.]

As an example, I was blown away by Mr Abnett's writing on 'Legion' and the soldiers in that.


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## World Eater XII

believe!

i think we all learned a lesson there!


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## Commissar Ploss

my thoughts on this whole issue. As well as part of the review off amazon.co.uk. 

my new blog has begun:

http://thefoundingfields.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/nothing-said-or-done/

CP


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## World Eater XII

So has zou been tottally silent on this matter then? or would i be ight in saying BL are giving him a few smacks upside his face?


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## Commissar Ploss

yes, completely silent on the matter. I'm doing what i can to dig up a statement from GW/BL/Zou. I'll post it when i get it.

CP


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## polynike

Having just finished F&I, I find these comments on plagiarism funny. Writing about war, any war ficitional or otherwise, WW2, Iraq or a 40k one would have many cross overs. The emotions would be similar, the actions themsleves very similar. the outcomes similar as well. I have many ww2 memiors of German soldiers during ww2 and they all read more or less the same way. the actions fought, the mental and physical aftermaths and so on. 

Not knowing anything in depth about these plagiarism accusations (have BL or GW made a comment yet?) I would argue that many novels of this genre would have pretty much the same content! I have all the Gaunt novels and to me they all read the same, essentially just the same stories set against a different background and contexts, for the record I am a fan of the Ghosts!


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## darkreever

Keep in mind that a series of novels written by the same author can tend to have similarities. Those novels being about the same person or people and their lives as they go from one adventure to another.


Its a bit more problematic when one authors novel or series of novels show near word for word similarities with the novel or series of novels from a completely different author.


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## Commissar Ploss

polynike said:


> (have BL or GW made a comment yet?)


no not yet, however, i am bugging them for one, as it needs to be addressed.

CP


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## World Eater XII

Madness that somebody would trash their career this early


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## Phil73805

World Eater XII said:


> Madness that somebody would trash their career this early


Well World Eater, needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle 

I remember having high hopes for Zou's first book...put it down half way through, never picked it up again. Don't imagine I ever will. It seemed to have all the right ingredients and yet...

As for the plagiarism, well bloody nora. Never thought I'd see the day, really quite shameful.


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## World Eater XII

I finished reading flesh and iron and tbh, plagiarism aside, it started off well then just went a bit crap in my opinion! i was shaking my head by the end of the book.


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