# Matt Ward: Batman in Disguise?



## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Matt Ward gets a lot of hate these days, for his fanboy-esque depictions of the armies he writes in general and his mary-sue characters in specific. His name is synonymous with godmodding, and the very mention of his name can bring even the most collected 40k player to the brink of nerd rage.



But is he _really_ all that bad?



After flipping through the old Chaos and Necron codecies, I had what could be considered a revelation of sorts;

_The 40k universe is full of mary sue characters, and has been long before Matt Ward even picked up his first paintbrush. _



Consider, if you will, the 3ed Chaos Codex. The traitor legions are depicted as more-than-superhuman murdermachines, laying waste to all who cross their path and generally having all their nefarious plots met with success (the sole exception being, of course, the 13 Black Crusades simply by virtue of the Imperium's intrinsic plot armor). The Chaos Marines could, quite simply, _do no "wrong,"_ and when I was a new player I remember being fed up with hearing about how Chaos would rampage around the universe, very rarely ever meeting any actual resistance from anyone.

Consider further the Necrons, who, if their codex is anything to go by, are invincible god-machchines whose only glaring problem is that they may be too perfect at killing the shit out of everything they see. According to their fluff, this is a legitimate concern of their star-gods, the C'Tan, and a popular theory on TV Tropes.com is that the rank-and-file Necrons are actually rebelling against their masters by killing everything in the universe so that there is nothing for their space-vampire masters to feed on. If that isn't godmodding, I don't know what is. The Necrons are played up so hard in their fluff that it's a small wonder that anyone, let alone the weak and puny Imperium, has been able to stand up to them at all. Even the pompous Eldar are scared shitless of them, and they gave birth to the nastiest Chaos power of all time.

My point, ladies and gentlemen, is that the quality of fluff that everyone berates Matt Ward for has been a staple of the 40k universe for a long, long time...but it's always been on the evil side. Nobody bats an eyelash at an Emperor's Son Marine living for thirty-thousand years, killing everyone and everything that he sees and reincarnating himself via the body and soul of anyone or anything that managed to kill him, but as soon as the Imperials get a character who's rampaged through the warp, slaying any and all daemons who cross his path, the red flags start flying up faster than a Vikings/Packers NFL game. Before Matt Ward entered the picture, Chaos was so utterly badass that they would walk into a room and every mortal would immediately burst into purple flame, whereas the best the loyalist Marines could hope for was some Pyhrric victory where their entire chapter is almost wiped out.

Perhaps you all realize now how utterly one-sided the fluff has been in 40k all this time. Is it in our nature as nerds to want the bad guys to win most of the time, being shunned from the bright light of the world as we are? Why is it that we can stomach the bad guys being super-badass and cool, while our gag reflexes go into overdrive when the good guys win a curb-stomp battle against genocidal maniacs? Is Matt Ward the hero that the loyalist forces need, but don't deserve? Or is he the hero we deserve, but don't need?

Something to consider, my friends.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

You forgot to mention the Tyranids and their insane bullshit fluff.

But you should be careful about talking shit about the necrons and chaos here... You never know when Serpion5 or the Child-of-the-Emperor will drop by and turn everything upside down with their fluffy magiks.

But as I said before, the entire 40k universe is like a High school drama where everyone has the power to destroy the universe by farting... Its just that Matt Ward puts the icing on the cake, completing the mary sue universe.

Also about the bad guy part, I don't mind if they win, as long as they win through a good plot and good strategies, then its certified by me. But if its like "Iz gotz a la2er beam that kan killz planets!!1!!", than thats stupid.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well you also have to look at what the Imperium is compared to the C'tan and the Necrons and the Chaos Space Marines with their Chaos Gods.

You have an Emperor who is now basically dead, that is the only thing that is keep the Imperium alive. But what is he? He has only ever been a human being. Yes, also the most powerful pyscker. But thats about it. 

The Emperor can't kill a C'tan but somehow the Grey Knights can carve their names in the hearts of Chaos Gods and swim around the warp like its a swimming pool. Despite the lore that surrounds them.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

while this has yet to descend into matt ward hate thread; can i just ask and i promise i am being serious; who is he and what has he done recently that is bad?

all my rulebooks, codices and most bl books are currently 600 miles away and i have no clue lol


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Pretty much the anger has risen from the new Grey Knights Codex and all the crazy stuff thats in that book. You can read it, if you close to a local GW store. Just ask the sales person or manager if you can take a look at it.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

i would and will once i return to blighty! thanku v much for the info


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

look at it form the perspective of reading a story about good an evil.

In many cases evil always has a slightly bigger edge over the good so that it is a challenge to overcome evil .

I see you point completely...

The thing is I someone like Lucius makes sense in the fluff he is being supported by a daemonic god but some one like draigo is being supported by a rotting corpse stuck sitting on a throne. The writing style of matt ward is terrible beyond imagination. (this isnt nerd rage BTW) The imperialists have always been for the most part mostly mortal and human sure they have done immposible feats but they are still mostly human. Now we can say the darker side of the fluff got all the god modding but then again look at the which hunters and the inquisition or even read about some of the loyal SM they got the treatment as well. Another thing to note is each armies codex makes all the armies sou nd like billy bad asses that can do whatever they want.

Now dont take anything said here to heart Im sure Im worng on a few points but hey im not perfect nor am I the fluff guru.


Ya see Matt Ward is creating faboyish fluff just to make lil 12 yr olds whine for mommy to by them models.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Captain Galus said:


> Matt Ward gets a lot of hate these days, for his fanboy-esque depictions of the armies he writes in general and his mary-sue characters in specific. His name is synonymous with godmodding, and the very mention of his name can bring even the most collected 40k player to the brink of nerd rage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This statement is so true it hurts. Many many Chaos/Xenos fanboys have no problem when their armies get all the overpowered characters but as soon as an Imperial Faction gets somebody ridiculously overpowered all hell breaks loose. 
And as for the whole "Drago can't do that coz he's not allied with the chaos powers." Isn't this the forum full of people who yell "The Warp isn't evil to start off with!" Oh look we have a manifestation of that FINALLY.

On a parting note. Has anybody seem the fluff and rules for Lelith Hesperex (spelling) from the Dark Eldar codex? I didn't hear anybody yelling their heads off when she came out.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> This statement is so true it hurts. Many many Chaos/Xenos fanboys have no problem when their armies get all the overpowered characters but as soon as an Imperial Faction gets somebody ridiculously overpowered all hell breaks loose.
> And as for the whole "Drago can't do that coz he's not allied with the chaos powers." Isn't this the forum full of people who yell "The Warp isn't evil to start off with!" Oh look we have a manifestation of that FINALLY.
> 
> On a parting note. Has anybody seem the fluff and rules for Lelith Hesperex (spelling) from the Dark Eldar codex? I didn't hear anybody yelling their heads off when she came out.


Sorry never read lelith's fluff in the new DE codex. Me Im honestly not complaining about the fluff but I'm sorry draigo's fluff is ridiculously to elaborate. I have no problem with SM heros doing crazy things like taking on an entire army and surviving but, Draigo's fluff is taken way out of context.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> This statement is so true it hurts. Many many Chaos/Xenos fanboys have no problem when their armies get all the overpowered characters but as soon as an Imperial Faction gets somebody ridiculously overpowered all hell breaks loose.
> And as for the whole "Drago can't do that coz he's not allied with the chaos powers." Isn't this the forum full of people who yell "The Warp isn't evil to start off with!" Oh look we have a manifestation of that FINALLY.
> 
> On a parting note. Has anybody seem the fluff and rules for Lelith Hesperex (spelling) from the Dark Eldar codex? I didn't hear anybody yelling their heads off when she came out.





ckcrawford said:


> Well you also have to look at what the Imperium is compared to the C'tan and the Necrons and the Chaos Space Marines with their Chaos Gods.
> 
> You have an Emperor who is now basically dead, that is the only thing that is keep the Imperium alive. But what is he? He has only ever been a human being. Yes, also the most powerful pyscker. But thats about it.
> 
> The Emperor can't kill a C'tan but somehow the Grey Knights can carve their names in the hearts of Chaos Gods and swim around the warp like its a swimming pool. Despite the lore that surrounds them.



I'm glad people are picking up what I'm putting down! This is more of a discussion about the fluff and how Matt Ward fits into it, and not Matt Ward hate thread. Everyone cheers when Huron Blackheart and a couple Red Corsairs easily steal a warship from the Space Wolves, but people get pissed when Marneus Calgar, who was supposed to be super badass even before Matt Ward stepped in, punches an Avatar to death but also sustains some pretty nasty wounds himself.

@ Ckcrawford: As far as the Emperor to Chaos Gods/C'Tan comparison, I'm not sure the Emperor has ever squared off against one of them in the fluff. Correct me if I'm wrong. 
[FLUFFWAR]The Chaos Gods, however, were so scared of/threatened by him that they put aside their differences and actually worked together to take him down. And they only half succeeded. I think it's fair to say there's more to the Emperor than meets the eye. [/FLUFFWAR]


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I believe it is because the mary-sueness of Imperial heroes runs contrary to the theme of the constant decay and failure of the Imperium. The fluff surrounding Chaos and Xenos characters could be considered overpowered, but it has served to reinforce the idea that the Imperium is falling apart - an idea that has especially been pushed with the whole "time of ending" schtick introduced in the 5th Edition rulebook. That there is now a Grey Knight character who can summon the spirits of his fallen comrades, a Justicar who keeps getting ressurected, a completely incorruptible Castellan who carries a daemonic blade, a Supreme Grand Master who has wrecked so much stuff up in the Warp that daemons now fear him, and extending this to the Blood Angels Codex, a mysterious being who shows up in the Blood Angels time of need to kill Greater Daemons - the deeds of these fellows run contrary to the idea that the Imperium and its institutions are in any danger at all.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Ya see Matt Ward is creating faboyish fluff just to make lil 12 yr olds whine for mommy to by them models.


And whats wrong with that? I have yet to see a codex or rule book produced by GW that wasnt firmly targeted at the people with the most disposable income, the most likey to part with it, the most likely to buy into game and armies as they are presented and the least likely to bitch and moan about the good old days/prices/matt ward/jervis johnson/white dwarf/release schedules/fluff/share price....well the list is long.

Makes perfect sense to me, codex's books are brilliant for business 100 pages of shiny bollocks, for the sake of 20 pages at the back which we all need to play the game, he could fill the first 80 pages with Jamie Oliver recipes for all i care, the fluff is irrelevant its the same shite rehashed from the 90's not to mention this guy is not writing this off his own back, he will be given a brief, and i imagine that brief does not include the words "do what you want " because its all about shifting models


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Must......resist......


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

No one has mentioned the glory that was 2nd edition. 

Not only was the fluff a little bonkers but it affected the actual game rules. The first insanities that come to mind are the Avatar and the daemon princes.

The fluff was dull in 3rd edition, started to get better in 4th and is now back on track in 5th.

edit: Even back then the best Space Marine character wasn't anywhere near as good as Abaddon.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Protoss119 said:


> I believe it is because the mary-sueness of Imperial heroes runs contrary to the theme of the constant decay and failure of the Imperium. The fluff surrounding Chaos and Xenos characters could be considered overpowered, but it has served to reinforce the idea that the Imperium is falling apart - an idea that has especially been pushed with the whole "time of ending" schtick introduced in the 5th Edition rulebook.


So because the Imperium is failing it's troops aren't allowed to win any battles? Were that the case the Imperium would have been wiped out centuries ago. With the idea that the Imperium is beset from all sides and within they should have some of the greatest hero's to hold that empire together.



> That there is now a Grey Knight character who can summon the spirits of his fallen comrades, a Justicar who keeps getting ressurected, a completely incorruptible Castellan who carries a daemonic blade, a Supreme Grand Master who has wrecked so much stuff up in the Warp that daemons now fear him, and extending this to the Blood Angels Codex, a mysterious being who shows up in the Blood Angels time of need to kill Greater Daemons - the deeds of these fellows run contrary to the idea that the Imperium and its institutions are in any danger at all.


A grey knight who is haunted by the death of battle brothers who he should have died with, a Justicar who has seen that his efforts are in vain and the dark gods will win because nothing gets better with the Imperium, a Supreme Grand Master who is trapped within the Warp where his actions mean nothing as he can do no lasting damage to anything thereby reinforcing the idea that the Chaos Gods will win in the end. Finally we have the Sanguinor, yeah I got nothing for him :dunno:.


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

Wait, 40k has good guys?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> So because the Imperium is failing it's troops aren't allowed to win any battles? Were that the case the Imperium would have been wiped out centuries ago. With the idea that the Imperium is beset from all sides and within they should have some of the greatest hero's to hold that empire together.


Where did you get that assumption? I did not say the Imperium could not have its share of victories or mighty heroes. I'm only saying that the might in the fluff of some of the new ones, like the ones I just named, are eclipsing that of the Imperium's enemies and in so doing goes against the idea that the Imperium is falling apart. Why, with heroes like Draigo occupying the Chaos Gods in their own realms, forcing them to enact repairs and divert their daemonic servants - who evidently fear him - towards the defense of their realms, who need fear the Chaos Gods? Who need fear them when their servants can be trounced so easily?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> Where did you get that assumption? I did not say the Imperium could not have its share of victories or mighty heroes. I'm only saying that the might in the fluff of some of the new ones, like the ones I just named, are eclipsing that of the Imperium's enemies and in so doing goes against the idea that the Imperium is falling apart. Why, with heroes like Draigo occupying the Chaos Gods in their own realms, forcing them to enact repairs and divert their daemonic servants - who evidently fear him - towards the defense of their realms, who need fear the Chaos Gods? Who need fear them when their servants can be trounced so easily?


You don't. "Draigo is the best, he can do anything" Fucking Mat Ward. He has honestly ruined the background for me. He can FIGHT and occupy insanely powerful gods, in the centre of their power. The fuck is this shit.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Surely, being a daemonhunter that is cursed to walk the warp forever, with the majority daemons keeping out of your way, is actually some sort of decent Greek myth style punishment.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> You don't. "Draigo is the best, he can do anything" Fucking Mat Ward. He has honestly ruined the background for me. He can FIGHT and occupy insanely powerful gods, in the centre of their power. The fuck is this shit.


Second that.

Heres the problem all the SM lovers dont seem to grasp. Xenos (other than Orks) make up a small percentage of the Galaxy. Humans beat out all other Races (other than Orks) by ten fold. So what keeps the Xenos in the game roaming around and Causing trouble??? Give up??? They're better than Humans or SMs. Wether its Tech (Tau/Necs), Numbers (Orks/Nids), or Psychic Powers/ Knowledge (Eldar/DE) they have a advantage. 

Now Chaos being hyped up, well they better damn well be cause The CSMs and Cultist are outnumbered 100 to 1 by all the Loyalist Chapters and IG. So if they're so ez to pawn then how is Abbaddon launching Black Crusades (that FAIL u Loyalist Fanboys) that make Imperials scream "oh F**k"!" and freak out. Again its because they are more Powerful, Cunning, and Succesful. Why is this in question?

The Avatar of FUKIN Khain gave the Daemon weapon Weilding Primarch Fulgrim a Hard Time, hence why hes a badass. Now Heres the NORMAL Astartes Calgar with PFs and he owns the Avatar. How is that possible? 

Now we have a Fukin GK raoming the Warp and carving initails in DP Primarchs. Thats like saying Superman loves his Kryptonite underwear, or Batman has Super Powers, or the Hulk never gets mad. Its Contradicting to ESTABLISH fluff.

Heres perfect examples of Awsomness that does not go against Fluff.
1) Belial gets his back broken in a battle against Ghazkul Thraka. Yet the DAs win the day. Belivable.
2) Red Corsairs had a uprising and was forced into the Maelstrom by a combine effort of SM chapters, Inquisition, and IG. 
3) Yarrick beats Ghazkul Thraka but gets f**ked up.
4) A chapter of SMs destroyed a Craftworld, BS, but in turn they were decimated by another Craftworld for revenge. Tottaly belivable.
5) Angron decimated the ranks of Armeggedon and SWs untill 100 GKs showed up and sacrifice themselves to merely banish Angron for a 100 years. Totally makes sense.

Hundreds more examples of the Imperials pulling belivable wins in daring last stand situations, but takes nothing away from the threat of the enemy. How the Hell does Draigo run around the Warp fighting off the 4 Powers that brought low the Emp through Horus with no negative impacts?! Only Matt Wards fanboyism can ruin things this bad.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't have a problem with Matt Ward's intent. It's the degree he goes to.

"DRAIGO CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN! You want the Emperor to get up and punch Khorne in the face? DRAIGO CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!"

If you're going to have awesome heroes, please don't make it sound like you're trying to sell them to 12 year olds watching Saturday morning action cartoons.

On a side note, I'd rather have incredible feats performed by _groups_ of Imperials than individuals (be they Space Marines, Inquisitors, Tech-priests, servitors, or anything in between). It's more believable. Also, not every Imperial victory needs to be a Pyrrhic one. Look, for every seemingly "impossible" win (minimal losses), there are a hundred horrible defeats across the galaxy. It's a big place! To say that every Imperial triumph must be hard-fought and costly would be ignoring the formidable power the Imperium _does_ have. Yes, when compared to all the other threats facing it, the Imperium seems weak, and it'll inevitably be defeated. But it's not helpless, and we shouldn't forget that.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

And the Matt Ward hate crew descends.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Heres perfect examples of Awsomness that does not go against Fluff.
> 1) Belial gets his back broken in a battle against Ghazkul Thraka. Yet the DAs win the day. Belivable.
> 2) Red Corsairs had a uprising and was forced into the Maelstrom by a combine effort of SM chapters, Inquisition, and IG.
> 3) Yarrick beats Ghazkul Thraka but gets f**ked up.
> ...


1)Imperial hero gets his ass handed to him, Imperials barely win.
2)Chapter goes renegade, and is suddenly the equal of several Loyalist chapters, elements of the Inquisition and Imperial Guard.
3)Imperial hero gets his ass handed to him, Imperials barely win.
4)Imperial heroes kick some ass, then get their asses handed to them.
5)Chaos super hero kicks lots of ass, gets put in time out; millions of Imperial heroes are horribly slaughtered.

You made my point better than I did. No matter what, the Imperium looses. If it wins, it looses. If it looses, it looses hard. Also, Marneus Calgar was beaten to within an inch of his life when he fought the Avatar. A careful reading of the Avatar fight in the SM codex indicates that Calgar sucker-punched the Avatar with a powerfist the size of a VW Bug, then got his ass beat down, then got in another sucker-punch that killed the Avatar. Basically, Calgar _got lucky._

The Draigo Problem:
Substitue any Chaos character in Draigo's place...like Kharn. Say Kharn was stuck wandering in Slaanesh's part of the warp for all eternity, slaying the fuck out of all the Slaaneshi daemons he saw. Nobody would care, because that's what Chaos does: they _win_. On the flipside, you possibly the most powerful Space Marine in the entire Imperium, empowered by the most powerful psyker in the universe who is probably a god in his own right, tearing his way through the warp and killing daemons, which is exactly what he's been born and bred to do. Is this so wrong?

You be the judge.


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> But if its like "Iz gotz a la2er beam that kan killz planets!!1!!", than thats stupid.


so, like ork strategies?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Heres the problem all the SM lovers dont seem to grasp. Xenos (other than Orks) make up a small percentage of the Galaxy. Humans beat out all other Races (other than Orks) by ten fold. So what keeps the Xenos in the game roaming around and Causing trouble??? Give up??? They're better than Humans or SMs. Wether its Tech (Tau/Necs), Numbers (Orks/Nids), or Psychic Powers/ Knowledge (Eldar/DE) they have a advantage.
> 
> Now Chaos being hyped up, well they better damn well be cause The CSMs and Cultist are outnumbered 100 to 1 by all the Loyalist Chapters and IG. So if they're so ez to pawn then how is Abbaddon launching Black Crusades (that FAIL u Loyalist Fanboys) that make Imperials scream "oh F**k"!" and freak out. Again its because they are more Powerful, Cunning, and Succesful. Why is this in question?


No one is questioning that. Though I do question why people think every single CSM stands head and shoulders above every SM in terms of combat.



> Hundreds more examples of the Imperials pulling belivable wins in daring last stand situations, but takes nothing away from the threat of the enemy. How the Hell does Draigo run around the Warp fighting off the 4 Powers that brought low the Emp through Horus with no negative impacts?! Only Matt Wards fanboyism can ruin things this bad.


Why do people think Draigo is standing on a mountain top in the warp, battling it out with the 4 chaos gods and all their armies at once all the time? He wonders the warp alone, no longer hunted by the Chaos gods because they are not concerned with him. He can't do anything to them! 

Kill a Deamon? It goes back to it's master and is reformed somewhere else.

Burn Nurgle's Garden? It grows back when Nurgle wants it to.

Anything he does in the Warp is pointless. All his efforts are for nothing, even the Deamons don't want to fight him because it's a waste of their time.

But I forgot, the Imperium forces are only supposed to die in scrapping out victories or just outright lose. Being trapped in the base of the enemy for 10,000 years, cursed with the fact that your actions do NOTHING to help your battle brothers and being constantly reminded that you only delay the inevitable victory of Chaos just isn't the same.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why does everybody seem to think that this guy is having a massive effect on the Chaos Gods or that he's there because of anybody else but them.

If he got into the warp did some damage then got torn in two nobody would care.

In reality the Chaos gods are probably laughing their tits off at him going "Look he thinks he matters! Pass that soul grinder here will you I'm going to mess with him so more."


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

40k is a battle of the Mary Stews- they're all silly if you stare at them long enough, but Matt Ward manages to somehow make them so silly it sticks out even amongst the Dues Ex Machina'Crons, the Super Soldier Badass Anti-Heroes, the Noble Space Elves, etc.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Captain Galus said:


> The Draigo Problem:
> Substitue any Chaos character in Draigo's place...like Kharn. Say Kharn was stuck wandering in Slaanesh's part of the warp for all eternity, slaying the fuck out of all the Slaaneshi daemons he saw. Nobody would care, because that's what Chaos does: they _win_. On the flipside, you possibly the most powerful Space Marine in the entire Imperium, empowered by the most powerful psyker in the universe who is probably a god in his own right, tearing his way through the warp and killing daemons, which is exactly what he's been born and bred to do. Is this so wrong?
> 
> You be the judge.


I went over this in another thread. Nobody can survive un-aided in the Warp - not the ships whose gellar fields fail, not the Space Marine Terminators who get in a teleporter mishap and are lost to the warp, and neither should this guy, regardless of prior training. It is highly improbable that he should survive for as long as a century, and that's not even taking into account the flow of time in the Warp.

It's harder for a villain to break the willing suspension of disbelief on the basis that they must in some way present themselves as a threat to the protagonist. Indeed, I do not believe a villain can be taken seriously if they _don't_ do something significant to draw the protagonist's ire - otherwise, why is he or she the villain?

Regardless, it is possible to make a mary sue out of a villain. Your example, with Kharn being trapped in the realm of the dark prince and being forced to kill everything there for eternity, would indeed be stretching my willing suspension of disbelief _unless_ a suitable explanation regarding Kharn's being trapped in the first place and his being able to stay alive for so long were to be presented - for example, Kharn survives because Slaanesh wills it or something (even that is kind of flimsy). There is no explanation for Draigo being able to survive in the Warp for so long when, say, Space Marine Terminators or Grey Knight Teleport squads are able to be lost to the warp and its denizens via a deep strike mishap.

If the Chaos Gods aren't concerned with him, if he's not a threat, then why haven't they been able to off him? Wouldn't it seem the least concerning to them that their servants, who have previously been able to off every other mortal that has entered their realm, weren't able to off this guy too? Especially at the very beginning of his entry into the warp, before "only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death" and he would actually get attacked by everyone?

And while I'm at it, there's no explanation as to why the Grey Knights manage to field enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter when Terminator armor is so rare, so expensive to make, and the rites to its construction increasingly forgotten in the minds of Techpriests.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Pretty much the anger has risen from the new Grey Knights Codex and all the crazy stuff thats in that book. You can read it, if you close to a local GW store. Just ask the sales person or manager if you can take a look at it.


Well the one closest to me closed 
so could you outline the bad parts about it so i know why everyone's so upset? I think that the Grey Knights are the coolest faction in WH40K.
Did he make them ridiculusly powerfull im guessing?
Thats like the one battle for armageddon where they took on the WE and not one of them fell in battle. That seems a little bit too far.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> 1)Imperial hero gets his ass handed to him, Imperials barely win.


Not sure what you're proving... 



> 2)Chapter goes renegade, and is suddenly the equal of several Loyalist chapters, elements of the Inquisition and Imperial Guard.


Loyal powerful Chapter lead by a far greater, more impressive, more charismatic leader than pretty much all except Grimnar, attempts to rebuild the power of the Legion's of old by expanding the size of the Chapter, using non Astral Claw geneseed to do so, resurrects a dying successor chapter in the doing of such, extends his control over Imperial Guard and PDF regiments, attacks a petty sector governer and trade clan, resists the fleets sent by the governer etc, at which point Chapters get drawn in to apprehend him, to which he brings his own allies.

At the point of which the Red Scorpions under Verant Ortys enter, and knowing he's on the verge of being defeated, commits petty assassination, and the conversion to Chaos begins.



> 3)Imperial hero gets his ass handed to him, Imperials barely win.


Not sure what you're trying to prove...


> 4)Imperial heroes kick some ass, then get their asses handed to them.


As above


> 5)Chaos super hero kicks lots of ass, gets put in time out; millions of Imperial heroes are horribly slaughtered.


Yeah...



> You made my point better than I did. No matter what, the Imperium looses. If it wins, it looses. If it looses, it looses hard. Also, Marneus Calgar was beaten to within an inch of his life when he fought the Avatar. A careful reading of the Avatar fight in the SM codex indicates that Calgar sucker-punched the Avatar with a powerfist the size of a VW Bug, then got his ass beat down, then got in another sucker-punch that killed the Avatar. Basically, Calgar _got lucky._


*Looks to established literary high fantasy and scifi* - look at how much came down to luck rather than, or rather, despite skill or deliberate crafting?

Checks Middle Earth universe - Bilbo taking Sting, (a troll's knife), finding the ring, bilbo being knocked unconscious rather than killed in the battle of the five armies, Bilbo looking after his nephew, The hobbits being rescued but not killed by Eomer, the hobbits finding Treebeard, the other hobbits finding smeagol, sam finding the crumbs of the waybread, gollum falling off the edge of the cracks of doom... 

The good guys are supposed to be "crisis averted, lol".

The primary sense of 40K is "there is only war". To have the "good guys" placed in a position where everything they touch turns to flowers and honey bees and bambi's due to being "fucking amazing" - yet have every other army out there do the same... It's getting stale.



> The Draigo Problem:
> Substitue any Chaos character in Draigo's place...like Kharn. Say Kharn was stuck wandering in Slaanesh's part of the warp for all eternity, slaying the fuck out of all the Slaaneshi daemons he saw. Nobody would care, because that's what Chaos does: they _win_. On the flipside, you possibly the most powerful Space Marine in the entire Imperium, empowered by the most powerful psyker in the universe who is probably a god in his own right, tearing his way through the warp and killing daemons, which is exactly what he's been born and bred to do. Is this so wrong?


Yes. GW isn't big enough, or good enough to be making genre changing stories, neither is Mat Ward a talented enough writer to put that across. He's also appealing to a core of fans who are cynical enough to know that nothing is as "perfect" as it makes out.

I'm afraid, Mat has been watching too many comparatively low budget movies using idioms from already comparatively low budget movies to already low budget movies to create his Conan-esque characters. Look at Predator, on the other hand - entire team killed, only himself alive, yet he still fights through for victory against a superior foe.

Compare that to Mat Ward's Draigo... oh, he got dragged into the Warp and Stuff, now kills Daemons until they respawn... boring as fuck, lazy writing, godmodding. It's the same Pile of Shit that they chewed out with Tzeentch - even his "defeats" are part of his Master plan - but then again, he's a fookin' GOD. In Fantasy - compare that William King's Aelfric Cyenwulf who's a Champion of Tzeentch, who is attached so strongly to the prophecy's of Two sorceror twins that he attempts to defeat Gotrek in any way possible, yet cannot see that it's a prophecy and he will fall, rather than change the future. No difference there - apart from one.

The style of the writing by an outstanding author, not some jumped up dice rolling nerd who thinks he can rewrite established fluff to the level it has been just because he's... well, paid more than other people.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> And while I'm at it, there's no explanation as to why the Grey Knights manage to field enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter when Terminator armor is so rare, so expensive to make, and the rites to its construction increasingly forgotten in the minds of Techpriests.


Why do so many people have problems with the idea that the Grey Knights get all the good toys and don't operate or are equipped like a normal chapter?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

At the Captain at this thread about four pages ago. I was referring to the Emperor's fight with the Void Dragon/C'tan, and then I think it was Doelago's account of him fighting the Daemon Prince Mortarion where he carved his name on his heart. Now thats some crazy shit.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Why do so many people have problems with the idea that the Grey Knights get all the good toys and don't operate or are equipped like a normal chapter?


*Because there's no explanation for it!* There's no such thing as "new" suits of Terminator armor in the 41st millenium; it's so rare, so expensive to make, and the knowledge of how to make it so decayed in the minds of Techpriests that most of the time they make new suits by taking scraps of old suits and stiching them together. I understand that the Grey Knights are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus and so are not organized according to the dictates of the Adeptus Astartes - that bit was around in the 3E Daemonhunters Codex - but there is *no reason* presented as to why they should have enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter with its current rarity. Even the Ultramarines, who have the total industrial might of all of Ultramar behind it, can't muster that much - why are the Grey Knights the exception to this?

Whew...sorry I blew up there.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Suffer not the loyalists to live! This is the HERESY! Praise the Heretic!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't mind a little plot armour and fanboy-ism, but everything Matt Ward writes is drowning in them. Calgar's fluff is just plain ridiculous. Defeats an avatar, holds off an ork horde for a day and night alone, tears a daemon prince limb from limb... And those are probably his minor feats, Matt Ward left out how he journeys into the realm of chaos and beats up Khorne, alone.






Captain Galus said:


> Everyone cheers when Huron Blackheart and a couple Red Corsairs easily steal a warship from the Space Wolves.


Roughly 120 Red Corsair marines made up the initial assault, plus the Blood Reaver himself and several extra squads that made up another wave. The Red Corsairs easily outnumbered the space wolf marines and they were aided by traitorous marines in the space wolf ranks. They still suffered heavy casualties taking control of the ship.

"In all, the boarding action had taken nearly four hours, and had cost the lives of many Red Corsairs."

I'd hardly call that a couple of marines easily stealing a ship.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Protoss119 said:


> *Because there's no explanation for it!* There's no such thing as "new" suits of Terminator armor in the 41st millenium; it's so rare, so expensive to make, and the knowledge of how to make it so decayed in the minds of Techpriests that most of the time they make new suits by taking scraps of old suits and stiching them together. I understand that the Grey Knights are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus and so are not organized according to the dictates of the Adeptus Astartes - that bit was around in the 3E Daemonhunters Codex - but there is *no reason* presented as to why they should have enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter with its current rarity. Even the Ultramarines, who have the total industrial might of all of Ultramar behind it, can't muster that much - why are the Grey Knights the exception to this?
> 
> Whew...sorry I blew up there.


Unless they had the armor built when their order was founded. It would explain why their armor is of an older model then the current suits. This would also be the most logical reasoning behind it, as the 3rd edition codex says all their armor is ancient.

They could also have automated foundries to build new Terminator armor, as components are still made just not in large amounts. A stretch, but we know the Salamanders have the ability to construct new power armor on their home world so it is not entirely unreasonable that the grey knights *may* have the ability to construct termie armor.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> I don't mind a little plot armour and fanboy-ism, but everything Matt Ward writes is drowning in them. Calgar's fluff is just plain ridiculous. Defeats an avatar, holds off an ork horde for a day and night alone, tears a daemon prince limb from limb... And those are probably his minor feats, Matt Ward left out how he journeys into the realm of chaos and beats up Khorne, alone.


That sounds logical compared to Dante's slaying of Skarrbrand... which that in its self if fucking stupid.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> *Because there's no explanation for it!* There's no such thing as "new" suits of Terminator armor in the 41st millenium; it's so rare, so expensive to make, and the knowledge of how to make it so decayed in the minds of Techpriests that most of the time they make new suits by taking scraps of old suits and stiching them together. I understand that the Grey Knights are the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus and so are not organized according to the dictates of the Adeptus Astartes - that bit was around in the 3E Daemonhunters Codex - but there is *no reason* presented as to why they should have enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter with its current rarity. Even the Ultramarines, who have the total industrial might of all of Ultramar behind it, can't muster that much - why are the Grey Knights the exception to this?
> 
> Whew...sorry I blew up there.


They are an exception because their fortress monestary on Titan is right next to Mars, the largest and most productive forge world in the imperium added to this is that they are the chamber militant of the ordo Malleus and have to fight the worst threat known to human kind, the Daemon. Besides having being created as part of the second founding they will have had 10000 years to accumulate terminator armor and they don't all wear terminator armor many wear aegis pattern power armor.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> At the Captain at this thread about four pages ago. I was referring to the Emperor's fight with the Void Dragon/C'tan, and then I think it was Doelago's account of him fighting the Daemon Prince Mortarion where he carved his name on his heart. Now thats some crazy shit.


Thus I demand to know why my name was mentioned. 

Praise the Emperor.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Scholtae said:


> They are an exception because their fortress monestary on Titan is right next to Mars, the largest and most productive forge world in the imperium added to this is that they are the chamber militant of the ordo Malleus and have to fight the worst threat known to human kind, the Daemon. Besides having being created as part of the second founding they will have had 10000 years to accumulate terminator armor and they don't all wear terminator armor many wear aegis pattern power armor.


The Dark Angels were the FIRST legion, they have had over 10 000 years, and they only have (roughly) enough termie armour for a Company. Yet the GK found a thousand suits in a closet somewhere,


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> The Dark Angels were the FIRST legion, they have had over 10 000 years, and they only have (roughly) enough termie armour for a Company. Yet the GK found a thousand suits in a closet somewhere,


A valid point. One cannot take the fluff at face value, however. Just because the books say Terminator armor cannot be produced doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. The GK are the Imperium's foremost "special forces," the Delta Force to the SM's Navy SEALs. In real life, special forces are supplied with the best (of what we know of as the best) equipment and training a nation is capable of producing.

IMHO, it is not too much of a stretch to to imagine that Mars is indeed capable of producing things which are supposedly "lost to the ages," and seeing as how the Imperium controls the shit out of information, it all points to one big conspiracy theory. That's just my take, anyway.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

A good point Galus. but if the they the capability, why not do it for more chapters? Surely the ability to take the field as almost completely impervious is a massive boon to the imperium which is (supposedly) in dire straights.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I believe there was once a story where the Grey Knights borrowed suits of terminator armour from 16 Chapters, and amassed 700 suits, but didn't have time to change the heraldry. Hence when they tele'd in, and the enemy saw 16 Chapters they thought that 16000 Marines were about to rain fire and gave up without a fight.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I believe there was once a story where the Grey Knights borrowed suits of terminator armour from 16 Chapters, and amassed 700 suits, but didn't have time to change the heraldry. Hence when they tele'd in, and the enemy saw 16 Chapters they thought that 16000 Marines were about to rain fire and gave up without a fight.


Lmfao, never read that, but sounds pretty awesome.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I believe there was once a story where the Grey Knights borrowed suits of terminator armour from 16 Chapters, and amassed 700 suits, but didn't have time to change the heraldry. Hence when they tele'd in, and the enemy saw 16 Chapters they thought that 16000 Marines were about to rain fire and gave up without a fight.


Me as a general would shit myself too. But thats just funny I can see the Force commander just laughin at the enemy general saying Gotcha


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Petition to get Wardy booted anybody?


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Let Chaos, Necrons, and the Tyranids have all the fluffy fluffness they want.

Will make the Emperor's eventual victory all the more enjoyable.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> Let Chaos, Necrons, and the Tyranids have all the fluffy fluffness they want.
> 
> Will make the Emperor's eventual victory all the more enjoyable.


Let Ward write 6th Ed, the Intro will go something like this:

the enemies of the Imperium, shattered and broken, exist gnawing like rodents at the edges of the Emperor's ever growing Galactic Empire, only a matter of time before all fall before the glory of the immortal Emperor of Mankind.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

You missed out the bit where Techy priests take gene samples from the greatest spacemarines and the emperor is created a new body which is mind can possess.

Oh, and he has recentally to give up the old gold armour and settle for a nice stylish Blue.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Don't forget Calgar ascends to sidekick-Godhood by drinking the Emperor's sparkling golden jizz.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

TERMINATOR ARMOUR FOR EVERYONE IN THE IMPERIUM!

Turns out, the emperor just wanted mankind to proove it's devotion. He had fuck loads in a lockup on some distant planet WHICH NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN BEFORE!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Let Ward write 6th Ed, the Intro will go something like this:
> 
> the enemies of the Imperium, shattered and broken, exist gnawing like rodents at the edges of the Emperor's ever growing Galactic Empire, only a matter of time before all fall before the glory of the immortal Emperor of Mankind.


I got a good laugh out of that one, but eventually realized that it's horrifyingly true.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Nonsense.

The Imperium just doesn't have enough Requisition Points to buy Terminator armor silly.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

True, not normally, but every time Ward writes a codex they get 40 000 Wank points. Which allow you to do things like auto win, turn your alien enemies into allies, and own gods of war.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Thus I demand to know why my name was mentioned.
> 
> Praise the Emperor.


Aha! I got you, sacrifice him to the blood god! It'd be cool if somehow Jezlad could sacrifice members that pissed him off to a power generator on this site, and somehow the power of the Heresy just increases and gives us kudos or something. :training:

On a more serious note though. Is it possible that the suits were scavanged from the Heresy? Maybe they did a little trip to Istvaan and just went shopping. 

We got a little helmet there, and an armored arm over here...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Aha! I got you, sacrifice him to the blood god! It'd be cool if somehow Jezlad could sacrifice members that pissed him off to a power generator on this site, and somehow the power of the Heresy just increases and gives us kudos or something. :training:


If I had the power to sacrifice people from the site for the glory of the God Emperor there would be at least a hundred persons less on the site.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> True, not normally, but every time Ward writes a codex they get 40 000 Wank points. Which allow you to do things like auto win, turn your alien enemies into allies, and own gods of war.


Bingo. It's easy enough to dismiss Ward haters as anti-Imperium guys (Okay, so I am that too to some degree) but the root of the matter is that Ward's stuff is just _goofy._

I for one am terrified that he's gonna rewrite the Necron fluff in their update. They'll either become sniveling emo bots or are so retardedly overpowered that it's just plain embarrassing. Or... *gulp*_ star crossed lovers with the Blood Angels_.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I hate Ward.

For the bell end he made of Fantasy.

I play Space Marines. Multiple armies. The first being White Scars. Why? Because it wasn't fucking Vulkan. The second being courtesy of Alan Bligh's epic tomes - Badab 1 and Badab 2.

What other shit do I see? Crudass, Kelly, Ward... What other bell end army rules do I see?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I just don't understand why GW just doesnt get some of the BL authors to write some of the dexes. Not Gav though he screwed CSM enuff.

Really itsjust starting to get to me seeing fluff that just contradicts anyting written. Next thing you know Sanguinus is gonn rise from the dead as a zombie start eating daemons to stay alive because matt decided it would be a cool idea


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> The GK are the Imperium's foremost "special forces," the Delta Force to the SM's Navy SEALs. In real life, special forces are supplied with the best (of what we know of as the best) equipment and training a nation is capable of producing.


Hrm... Not sure on the analogy here - SF analogy I can understand, as in relating to CT Duties to foreign ops.

I thought that SEALS and Delta were as analogous to each other in that Shakyboats were analogous to the sore ass specialists/serious authors society.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> I just don't understand why GW just doesnt get some of the BL authors to write some of the dexes. Not Gav though he screwed CSM enuff.
> 
> Really itsjust starting to get to me seeing fluff that just contradicts anyting written. Next thing you know Sanguinus is gonn rise from the dead as a zombie start eating daemons to stay alive because matt decided it would be a cool idea


Well it's not like Ward types up the codex and prints it in his basement to be sold all over the world. Plus Graham McNeill helped write the last Sm dex, and that dex was SHIT for fluff.

All members of the development team get credit for working on the codex, which means they have input on the decisions made within the dex. That means all the stuff in the BA/GK dexs that everyone hates was checked out by Phil Kelly, Jervis Johnson, and Alessio Cavator and the rest of the dev team.

Plus what fluff is a direct contradiction to fluff written in previous codices? Looking at the 4th edition codex most of the named characters have almost no fluff at all. Seriously, Cassius fluff is "Hey this guy is old, he calls Calgar young and he survived the first Tyrannic war." Great background for a named character, compared to looking at the named characters in the CSM dex. It's nice to have characters with some real back story rather then just a story like Shrikes from 4e "Hey this guy fought behind Orc lines for a few years cause his ship got shot down. They won the war eventually." Thats great fluff in a book co-written by a BL author.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Comparing the two codices, I'll concede your point about Cassius. I feel he was better set up as a radical in a chapterfull of Codex-adherents than in 4E. But I can't say the same about Shrike. I got a few points out of it - that he attacked Donara and Yakhee, that he doesn't really give a damn about what Imperial Commanders want, and that he's still fighting Waaagh! Skullkrak, but everything else seems to be...well, trumped-up, the same old "<Independent Character> IS SO AWESOME" story.

But if it's the Space Marines codex we're talking about here, let me first say that I could really care less about the Calgar vs. Avatar thing. I read through it all once or twice and the endeavor certainly wasn't effortless for Calgar. There are a couple things that irk me about the Codex, however - prime amongst them being the Battle of Malbede, where Calgar let his Tau opponents-turned-temporary-allies go before he sentenced the planet to Exterminatus to stop the Necrons. This battle was present in the 5E rulebook too, and in both cases, no explanation is given as to why he let the Tau go. It's bothersome to me when you've got quotes from Inquisitor Apollyon and Brother Artemis - "He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence" and "Do not ask 'Why kill the alien?' rather ask 'Why not?'" respectively - and then have the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, the supposed paragons of all Codex chapters, go and allow the alien to live. I'm sure many reasons can be presented as to why Calgar let the Tau go, and I've even thought of some reasons myself, but the primary cause of RAEG is that there is no explanation.

But I think my biggest gripe about Matt Ward does not come from Codex: Space Marines at all. It actually came from a White Dwarf interview - which issue is unknown to me at this time - in which Andy Hall interviewed the man. The following inflammatory comments came from that interview, all from Matt Ward:

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations (Blood Angels) or stolid stubbornness (Space Wolves and Dark Angels), all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." 

"In the past it's been very easy to rail against the Ultramarines - I think they've sometimes been perceived as warriors who rarely leave Ultramar, marching round parade grounds in full dress. This is far from the truth as they are one of the hardest working chapters out there... The Ultramarines are the most focused, proficient, and tactically aware force in the galaxy and we've made no bones about that in the new Codex." 

That, I think, is what pissed so many people off concerning him and his work, and it's not even in the Codex. I think this is where the "fanboy" perception of Matt Ward comes from and I believe people think that the ideas presented in the interview come through a bit too much in the Codex. The interview alone ignores critical things like the Black Templars' 10,000-year crusade and presents the idea that Space Marines not descended from Guilliman revere him and Calgar more than their own Primarch.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Captain Galus said:


> Substitue any Chaos character in Draigo's place


So Falkus Kibre gets really upset because Creed stole Abaddon's arms. He fights through the entire Cadian 8th, kills Creed's Baneblade by being angry at it, goes over to Creed, knocks him down to the ground and carves TACTICAL LOOSER onto Creed's cigar box. Then he stomps off in a huff and falls asleep standing up in his Termie armour. 
He gets mistaken for a Sentinel by some misfiring servitor and packed up in a crate and shipped to Terra. When he wakes up, he finds that someone's nicked his guns! So he finds an Adeptus Custode, beats him up so bad he has to be Dreadnoughtised and reforges his spear into some lighting claws. He then burns down a wing of the Adeptus Ministorum Book-keeping Hall (deleting a couple of SM chapters and various Inquisitors from Imperial Records in the process), knocks down a wall of the Imperial Fists HQ (burying Vladamir Pugh underneath for at least an hour), before stomping off trying to find the exit, or at least a map. Alas, no maps of the Imperial palace exist, and so Falkus is doomed to wander the halls for all eternity, his booming cires of "For Chaos' sake where's the bloody bathrooms in this place?!" terrifying all Imperial denizens and dooming him to stomp alone. Now and again he gets swept along in a sudden rushing crowd as one of the accounting depts empties out for a staff picnic in a sunny courtyard, and the resulting bloodbath is terrible to behold once everyone realises he's there and they don't have any extra sandwiches for him. Then, despondently, he has to re-enter the Imperial Palace once more. Fear him. Fear for him. One man against kafkaesque buerocracy and a 10,000 year old building whose layout would send Escher mad.

I like this game! Anyone want to do another race?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Mob said:


> So Falkus Kibre gets really upset because Creed stole Abaddon's arms. He fights through the entire Cadian 8th, kills Creed's Baneblade by being angry at it, goes over to Creed, knocks him down to the ground and carves TACTICAL LOOSER onto Creed's cigar box. Then he stomps off in a huff and falls asleep standing up in his Termie armour.
> He gets mistaken for a Sentinel by some misfiring servitor and packed up in a crate and shipped to Terra. When he wakes up, he finds that someone's nicked his guns! So he finds an Adeptus Custode, beats him up so bad he has to be Dreadnoughtised and reforges his spear into some lighting claws. He then burns down a wing of the Adeptus Ministorum Book-keeping Hall (deleting a couple of SM chapters and various Inquisitors from Imperial Records in the process), knocks down a wall of the Imperial Fists HQ (burying Vladamir Pugh underneath for at least an hour), before stomping off trying to find the exit, or at least a map. Alas, no maps of the Imperial palace exist, and so Falkus is doomed to wander the halls for all eternity, his booming cires of "For Chaos' sake where's the bloody bathrooms in this place?!" terrifying all Imperial denizens and dooming him to stomp alone. Now and again he gets swept along in a sudden rushing crowd as one of the accounting depts empties out for a staff picnic in a sunny courtyard, and the resulting bloodbath is terrible to behold once everyone realises he's there and they don't have any extra sandwiches for him. Then, despondently, he has to re-enter the Imperial Palace once more. Fear him. Fear for him. One man against kafkaesque buerocracy and a 10,000 year old building whose layout would send Escher mad.
> 
> I like this game! Anyone want to do another race?


Any asshole wants to complain that Chaos guys are to built up then look at this and say "hmmmmmm... maybe the Draigo fluff is garbage." 

This is what a Chaos guy built up exactly like Draigo would be.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I can overexaggerate as well.

Coming from somebody who has the codex - I can say it's not complete tripe. He has 3 columns of text - 2 of them are excellent, really evocative stuff. However, it does begin to go the way of the "God Of War/Prince ofPersia" game plot storyline after then. It doesn't particularly explain how he carved the name of the previous Grand Master into Mortarion's heart, or why he didn't kill him, but aside from that, I don't have THAT many gripes as I expected it to.

A Bit like Crowe. People hear "Daemon weapon, Grey Knight, what?", and I was one of them. HOWEVER - having read it, it's an interesteing UTurn on the reason for why they destroyed the Relictors.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> On a parting note. Has anybody seem the fluff and rules for Lelith Hesperex (spelling) from the Dark Eldar codex? I didn't hear anybody yelling their heads off when she came out.


Emm...because she's remarkably unimpressive? A whole lot of S3 power attacks may be fun for killing guard, but she has no choice of wych weapons, Still needs a 5+ to wound MeQs (and is quite boned going against T5) and will get insta-killed by a relic blade, Power Fist or plasma once he escort is dead. Heck, even just blowing up her transport has a good odd of putting a wound on her.

And her fluff just puts her as the queen of arena succubi. Not outlandish at all; the praising of her skill are neatly reflected in her uber-high WS and Ini, as well as improved save in CC. Now if her fluff said that she has murdered 5 chapter masters without ever breaking a sweat, you'd have a point. 

But getting back to the point at hand, all codices at least try to make their armies look menacing and conquering (Maybe not the current CSM one, but the previous ones...yeah). The issue is one of degree. 

Given the fluff (and some of the rules) of the GK codex and most of Ward's work, I wonder why the First Armageddon War was even close. I guess all their Dreadknights were in the shop, since one of those would make Angron revert back to a primarch in a silly get-up by negating his daemonic gifts. 

The Imperium is supposed to win a good bit of the time. Decisive victories, even. But they are supposed to be grueling, at great cost, and epic in sacrifice more often than not. As someone has pointed out here: if the average Space Marine is better than the average chaos traitor and there are -more- of them...what's the challenge?

I guess one of the reasons I like Dan Abnett (since we're slamming a writer, we should give props to those that do it right) is that he knows how to craft a narrative in which even the best can fail, become victims to their virtues as well as their flaws.


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