# Theory on Black Rage Source - Sanguinius/Emperor/Horus



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Horus lowers his shields for some reason, to bait the emperor to end the war.

Sang reaches horus first and they are together for an undisclosed ammount of time.

I believe....when sang arrived he and horus spoke, and horus showed him things, evidence, something....

Sang sides with horus, does he embrace chaos? That I don't know, but I do think horus convinced sang of some thing regarding the emperor....

The emperor arrives shortly after, or the emperor arrives while horus is telling sang the "truth". 

Going by what he (sang) now knows, and the emperors reaction, or admittance, he becomes angry...

Sang feels betrayed by whatever he finds out about the emperor....so hate filled, angry the black rage happens, and he attacks the emperor.

Sang wounded from prior battle, is killed by the emperor.

Horus then rather immediately aiming to kill the emperor whilebeing channeled the full power of all the chaos gods, instead chooses to torture him for what he did to sang, as well as whatever betrayal it is the emperor did to them that sang found out about.

The emp gains the upper hand at some point, slays horus, but not before being crippled.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt it. What evidence could he show him? There is nothing the emperor could have done that would outweigh what Horus was doing. That and GW has said that Tweety was killed by Horus, not the emperor. Even if he was why would Horus hold back and watch his brother, favorite brother btw, charge head long into a fight he couldn’t have hoped to win even on his best day? Even if he didn't care what happened to Tweety, why wouldn't he, a brilliant tactician, not capitalize on the moment? If he had used Tweety as a screen and attacked while the emperor was focused on his brother he could have ended it right there.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

He showed him emp+slan's child.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

People need to remember....the Emperor is not that good. He also made a deal with the Chaos Gods, go read A Thousand Sons.....during the vision Magnus gets from the Chaos demon (Tzeentch?), he finds out the Emperor made a deal with Chaos concerning at the very least, the Primarchs. Lux's theory is probably. Also remember, GW is telling the story as if they were Imperium astropaths.......they only give us the info the Imperium wants you to know. Another thing to think of: Noone else was present during their initial meeting on board Horus' ship.....The Emperor could have come up with any story. If you are to continue to believe the visions given to Magnus, the Emperor wanted to use him to power the Golden Throne and drain him of his psychic powers to do what the Emperor does now.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He was good. Unfortunately he had to do some bad things to reach a better end. The difference was that the emperor was powerful enough not to be corrupted by chaos, Horus and Magnus couldn't. TBH Horus was a traitor, he was responsible for the deaths of billion and the death of a primarch. There was no reason to believe Tweety would trust anything he said and no reason to believe the emperor would admit to anything.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

One thing...really your going to go by what Tzeentch says, it's like believing a van that has free candy written on the side.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> He was good. Unfortunately he had to do some bad things to reach a better end. The difference was that the emperor was powerful enough not to be corrupted by chaos, Horus and Magnus couldn't. TBH Horus was a traitor, he was responsible for the deaths of billion and the death of a primarch. There was no reason to believe Tweety would trust anything he said and no reason to believe the emperor would admit to anything.


Ummm.... ok....

TBH, i think the Emperor and his actions were more evil than Horus ever was.

Good and evil is 90% perspective. Take away the perspective, and the Emperor was probably the closest definition of evil in the entire galaxy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How so? His goals were for the betterment of humanity.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I can see where KingOfCheese is coming from, Horus believed his actions were for the betterment of humanity.

I don't think Sanguinius did turn against the Emperor, as with Guilliman I think the Lord of Angels deeply believed in the Emperor's vision- an ideal he would have gladly given his life for.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> How so? His goals were for the betterment of humanity.


Ok, lets say your living in America, and the Emperor is on the moon.
You have your army, and a number of civilians.
There are reports of a small chaos influence amongst 1 or 2 civilians.
Emperor drops a nuclear bomb on all of America.

Humanity is not necessarily good either. As i said before, its a matter of perspective.
A race that minds their own business and defends themselves if attacked could be considered a good race.
A race that insists on destroying everything in the galaxy with a "kill first, ask questions later" attitude could be considered as evil as it gets (Imperium). Even more so when they are willing to sacrifice people of their own race in order to do so.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

First off all that example is retarded, they wouldn’t declare an extermination for an infestation of that size. If half the pop were turned then it would be a necessary evil. And how was horus any better? If he had one humanity would have died.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Oh? Which primarch did he kill? Last I remember, by this time the only one to have died was Ferrus Manus, and that was at the hands of Fulgrim, not Horus. He might have sided with Horus but that particular blood is not on his hands.

I agree with LordofFenris; because history is written from the eye of the victor, there is nothing that would stop that victor from writing history as he/she/it see's fit.


When the Emperor, Dorn, and Sanguinius teleported onto Horus's ship, Horus made it so that only Sanguinius made it to him at first, in a last attempt to try and turn his favorite brother. Who is to say that he did not succeed? The Emperor? Nine of his sons turned traitor, the Blood Angels had fought for weeks on Terra against the traitors, if their primarch did turn what good would come of telling them that? Why let the shattered Imperium know that another of its greatest heroes had turned his back?


Maybe that is what happened; maybe it worked, Horus turned Sanguinius. But maybe he did not turn him because he wanted him anymore, maybe at that point he wanted him because Horus knew that if he fought the Emperor then and there, he would lose. So the Emperor is forced to fight another son, and the fight leaves him drained and Horus tortures him. At the height of it all, with Horus standing before the mortally wounded Emperor, he goes so far as to speak of how he turned Sanguinius, how he planned on making sure all of the others knew about what the Emperor did.


Why not, only three individuals truly know what happened there, and two are dead while the third does not speak. Its the beauty and tragedy of history, and honestly which would you rather the Emperor's people to know? That Horus shattered the Imperium and turned more than half of its greatest heroes or that he was stopped only at half?



As for how evil the Emperor was: he bartered with gods and went back on his end of the bargain. He planned to unite the galaxy under his rule in order to destroy those gods, that was his reason for stopping religion and superstition. He had no qualms with wiping out anyone who would not follow his ideals and vision, no matter what. He thought he knew what was best for mankind, damn be anyone else.

Horus was evil, he shattered everything with his actions, but he did not knowingly make deals with gods and break them when his needs were met. Horus thought he knew what was best, that he was doing the right thing, to a point; and he was prepared to go to any lengths to achieve that.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Who led the led the traitors did he not? Do we blame Stalin for all the people killed when he was leader? Fuck yes we do even though he didn’t directly kill the vast majority of them.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Study the Artwork of the final confrontation. Horus is standing over Sangs remains but to me it looks as if he is guarding over them, not standing triumphantly. The only wound on Sang is a single peircing wound. The only person there with a peircing weapon is the Emperor. And sure some might say horus use one of his fingers to do it.

A lightning claw is a rending weapon not something that would make a clean cut.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Unless you tried a punch.... And we really can't use GW artwork as any evidence for that.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

If you tried to punch there would be a bloody ruin of a chest left, look how big the fist is. For all we know the BL and GW guys most probably figured this out ages ago. Big secretslike this.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The fist doesn't do a hell of a lot of damage its the claws that do it. The blades go in.... the blades go out. They do not go in blow up the torso and come out.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

The wound on sang is small, to small for a Primarch size Lightning Claw, even if it is just a finger.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The blade of the emperors sword is larger than the finger. Even if you look at it the pic the emperors sword is ablaze.. There would have been burn marks around the wound. They made it look good. Trueth is no one wants to see sang mutilated beyond mention.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

This all sounds strangely familiar:so_happy:
I really like this theory, it's a bit of a leap of faith but it does tie up some loose ends Black Rage, Mephiston, etc.
The thought that the Emperor was a 'good guy' always makes me laugh, he was powerful yes, even wise, but good? 
Not a chance!
The Emperor was a raving genocidal lunatic who makes any of the real worlds dictators look like Care Bears.
Even when he was still stuck on Terra he was leading a crusade to wipe out religion, literally wiping it out. Read the HH book Tales of Heresy, it paints a less than flattering picture of the big E. 
He manipulated Mars and brought about the Ad Mech, he did dodgy deals with the Chaos Gods to create a race just as psychotic as him and then he set out across the galaxy on a destructive rampage that humanity are still suffering for 30k years later.

Great guy the Emperor, I'd have him round for tea any day!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I have read them all and by humanities perspective he was creating a better reality then there was. Just because some can't stomach the methods changes little. His goal was to elevate humanity to the greatest height it had ever known. Simple. HE was brutal yes but rightly so. He needed to be. Xeno races had shown that they couldn’t be trusted during the fall, this was the best option.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

There is no doubting that the Emperor isn't good in a sense. Sure he does everything for humanity, but you can't start a unified and peaceful civilisation on acts of evil. Great example of, Tales of Heresy, The Last Church.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> HE was brutal yes but rightly so.


You can't take away everything humanity holds dear to them, Religion, Faith and belief and then turn around and expect them to love you.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The pic im looking at looks like the claw(About to the first opening) fits and it looks like it's from behind because the armors bent outwards, the mace looks like it has blood on it. Horus doesn't look like he's deffending. (Wow you guys posted fast)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I also believe this is the emperor doing what he had to do. Religion is to easily manipulated to fit evil purposes. Without religion the gods would have no worship. From what we see in the heresy it was working.... for a time at least. His downfall was his mistrust in his own people, however. If they had know what they were fighting then they might have been able to see what was happening.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

if the Emperor had had faith in his sons and Humanity then none of this would have happened. Everyone would know why he is doing what he is doing. Horus would not have rebelled. By all means, the Emperor is to blame for the massive shit storm Humanity finds himself in.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, he did tell his sons some thing, Lorgar would still have happened. He was looking for something to worship and the emperor didn't want to become a god, he would have gone to the chaos gods eventually.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

He obviously didn't tell his favoured son enough. Even Lorgar as fanatical as he was would not have been stupid enough to go up against 17 Legions on his own. Lorgar's legion were the bricks in the Wall of Heresy, but Horus was the Mortar that kept everything together. Without him the other legions would not rebell.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> I have read them all and by humanities perspective he was creating a better reality then there was. Just because some can't stomach the methods changes little. His goal was to elevate humanity to the greatest height it had ever known. Simple. HE was brutal yes but rightly so. He needed to be. Xeno races had shown that they couldn’t be trusted during the fall, this was the best option.


So how many of our most hated tyrants didn't do what they did for the betterment of their people? I can't think of many.
The Emperor is the ultimate fascist, obey or die. 
Apply the story to modern life, a man wants to kill off religion, wipe out anything that doesn't fit with his vision of what humanity should be and set himself up as Emperor of all mankind. If you disagree you will die, simple as that. He wants to sacrifice thousands of people everyday so that he can power some special secret machine he's making. Anyone born with any type of deformity is killed at birth and if you do get caught doing something you shouldn't it's not just you that dies it's everyone you know or have contact with.
To be honest he's not someone I'd be happy to live next door to.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He was what they needed. He was doing what needed to be done given those circumstances. We don't require anything near that severity. Religion needed to go to ensure the death of chaos. He wouldn’t have needed a thousand psykers per day to keep him alive if Horus had not rebelled. I didn't say he was nice but that was what humanity needed at that time. The truth is we don’t know if his vision was what was right because Horus ended all hope for the galaxy when he started his rebellion.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I have read them all and by humanities perspective he was creating a better reality then there was.


How do you come to that conclusion?
Taking away everyones beliefs and freedom?




gen.ahab said:


> Just because some can't stomach the methods changes little. His goal was to elevate humanity to the greatest height it had ever known.


How does this define "good"?

Every race wishes to elevate their race to great heights. Does that mean that all races are good?



gen.ahab said:


> Simple. HE was brutal yes but rightly so. He needed to be. Xeno races had shown that they couldn’t be trusted during the fall, this was the best option.


No races trust other races.

You are still looking at things in a human perspective.

What you have said just backs up the fact that he is evil. His actions and methods were completely unreasonable and selfish, he was unmerciful and brutal, and insisted on purging everything that didnt worship him.

At least Tau give you a chance to join them. You can be an Emperor fanboy that wants to kiss his boots for all eternity, but if you have an extra finger or your skin has a slight green tinge then he will smash your face in and mutilate you and everyone you know.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Norm.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

In total agreement with you normtheunsavoury.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Gen.ahab, look at it this way...

How would you like it if i said i was going to become emperor of the world today, and that you must worship me and believe what i want you to believe, and you must fight for me without question.
I believe that the world should be white, and your job will be to kill all coloured or asian people in the world, and anyone who associates with them. If there is one in a group of 10 white people, just kill the lot of them.
If you dont follow my orders or you choose to question them, then i will smash your face in with a baseball bat till your unconcious then do the same for all of your family and friends.


Now, how do you react to that?
Going by your logic, i would be the best person in the world, and would be like a God.
Is that correct?


(For the record, i am not a racist person. I am friends with several people from different races. I was simply using it as a modern-day example).


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

How could he have been what humanity needed at the time? Did they need 30k plus years of constant warfare? 
Did they need all of their beliefs and traditions detstroyed just to soothe the worlds biggest ego?
The imperium could have been built differently and would have been far stronger as a result.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Of course I am looking at this from humanities perspective. No one worshiped was suppose to worhsip him! That was the point. Religion needed to be purged to destroy the gods. All of this is going for a greater good. It doesn't matter what evils he did if in the end his goal was achieved. Horus destroyed that hope. His intentions were good. Mutations were dangerous and if they weren’t useful then they were an unnecessary risk to the species. IMO the ends justify the means. If I have to slaughter billions to save trillions I will do it without a second thought.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> How could he have been what humanity needed at the time? Did they need 30k plus years of constant warfare?
> Did they need all of their beliefs and traditions detstroyed just to soothe the worlds biggest ego?
> The imperium could have been built differently and would have been far stronger as a result.


10k years and that hardly was the emperors fault. He knew the fall was coming and was looking for a way out of it after the fact. Their beliefs were fueling the greatest evil ever known. It was cruel and vile but it needed to be done


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

All of that just goes to prove that propaganda is a powerful tool, in fluff terms all we have as a point of reference is the Imperial point of view. 
According to the machine that is the Imperium the Emperor was a living god, something he put forward himself in all but name.
When humanity dared question he told them it's all for their benefit, it's all for the greater good (then probably had them carted off somewhere and killed).
And the Emperor did not completely destroy religion, he replaced it with Imperial Truth, another religion in all but name.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Mutations were dangerous.


Space Marines, The Primarchs and hell, even the Emperor himself are mutations. The Emperor worked to destroy and kill psykers. He branded them dangerous, even one of his sons. The Emperor is the greatest psyker around.

From everything I have learnt about what the Emperor did, one word springs to mind. 

Genocide.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Of course I am looking at this from humanities perspective.


In that case, im wasting my time posting in this thread. :headbutt:

Even looking at it in humanities perspective, if i was a human in 40k, i would rather be executed by a demolisher cannon than worship that filthy lump of pond scum they call the Emperor.
Freedom of belief, choice, and free will are more valuable than life itself.
If your going to live to get pushed around by some douche then you may as well be a Necron.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry, yeah 10k, my bad!
but that was still the Emperor's fault, he could have forged alliances, he could have approached the whole thing differently and avoided the fall completely. 
Whichever way you look at it he was a tyrant, a brutal, genocidal tyrant. In no way shape or form was the Emperor a good guy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Sorry, yeah 10k, my bad!
> but that was still the Emperor's fault, he could have forged alliances, he could have approached the whole thing differently and avoided the fall completely.
> Whichever way you look at it he was a tyrant, a brutal, genocidal tyrant. In no way shape or form was the Emperor a good guy.


The governments of the old human empire did that and the moment humanity faltered they descended upon the remains like vultures. That was where the hate for xenos sprang from. He couldn't avoid the fall, the emperor couldn't change that but he could set up systems that would help humanity dig itself out of its own grave.



KingOfCheese said:


> In that case, im wasting my time posting in this thread. :headbutt:
> 
> Even looking at it in humanities perspective, if i was a human in 40k, i would rather be executed by a demolisher cannon than worship that filthy lump of pond scum they call the Emperor.
> Freedom of belief, choice, and free will are more valuable than life itself.
> If your going to live to get pushed around by some douche then you may as well be a Necron.





Vali ThunderAxe said:


> Space Marines, The Primarchs and hell, even the Emperor himself are mutations. The Emperor worked to destroy and kill psykers. He branded them dangerous, even one of his sons. The Emperor is the greatest psyker around.
> 
> From everything I have learnt about what the Emperor did, one word springs to mind.
> 
> Genocide.


Useful. Most aren’t.... in fact some are dangerous. He needed to Primarchs, although tbh I would have killed almost half of them after finding them.

This was not how it was SUPPOSE TO BE! This is the result of a plan only carried half way to completion. Horus and the traitors, especially Magnus, brought the galaxy to what it is in the 41st millennium.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Magnus was true to the Emperor at all times. The Emperor is to blame for his fall.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Vali ThunderAxe said:


> Magnus was true to the Emperor at all times. The Emperor is to blame for his fall.


Magnus was to blame. His own arrogance was his noose.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

No that was the Emperor's doing. He knew full well that Magnus wanted nothing more than to help him, but he kept him in the dark. Had he explained what he was doing with the Imperial webway, Magnus would never have done what he did, or maybe the Emperor would have helped him with what was to come.


Also ahab, you have an edit button just like everybody else; there is no need for you to multi-post like that. Come on, you have three posts within six minutes of each other, its not hard for you to put up quote tags and copy/paste the post you want to respond to.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Fixed Capt. lol And the emperor told him what he was medaling with was dangerous, Magnus was to arrogant to believe that anything was beyond him.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

All the back and forth about the Emperor being moar 3v1L than Horus aside for a moment:

I have looked at the final confrontation image. Firstly, the one I'm most familiar with (The big red eye in the background, Emperor with flaming sword) speaks volumes. Firstly, what we see is a room full of many of Horus' own legion, soon to be the Black Legion, as well as many of the Emperor's own personal warriors.

I also see what appears to be blood on Horus' gauntlet, as well as his mace. I found it difficult to see a wound on Sanguinius at first, but it's there, a gash in his breastplate, along the right side of the ribcage. The gash appears, with some faith it extends around the curve of the armor, to be large enough for a claw or sword to have punched through, and is unclear of which.

Also, the Emperor's left abdomen appears to have blood on his abdomen, which might also be some sort of red tassles, and there is also red on his left gauntlet which might be blood, or lighting.

That said, it does appear that Horus has been doing the most blooding, and the Emperor looks mostly unscathed, so from an initial assessment of that image, it looks like the remembrancer who managed to show up in time for this big event, has given us evidence of Horus killing Sanguinius with the Emperor avenging him.

However, I should point out: Remembrancer pict captures can be airbrushed. To the victor go the spoils of war and the rewriting of history. And, the Confederacy built the first sub, back during the American Civil war. It was wooden and sunk on its first sabotage mission, due to the strength of explosives used. However, it was not the USA, nor the Germans, nor anyone else... But, our public school system is mum on the subject of the Hunley, as it was created by the army that rebelled against our government, and therefore, in a way, the invention was a form of heresy (though this treatment of history varies from state to state).

Now, running back to the back-and-forth of who's eviler.

If you want to argue that you must ignore bias and opinion in order to assess the truth of someone's evil or goodness, you must put aside your claims that the Emperor was doing things for the betterment of humanity, and simply state that the Emperor wished to make an Empire of humans without genetic defect, without religion, without xeno involvement, and most certainly without compromise.

What makes this evil is that the Emperor insisted he was just a man, and being as man is fallible, the Emperor, likewise, even after 38,000 years, still made mistakes. The evil is that, despite being a human, and despite knowing that humans are inherently not perfect, the Emperor tried claiming they could be, and punishing anyone who disagreed with him, or who believed he was going about things the wrong way. The Emperor made bonds with Chaos, perhaps, though, this is something Horus was shown in a near-death experience... not exactly hard evidence when the forces at work, who have something at stake are the ones providing the evidence, which (being that Chaos is a compound of every memory and thought in existence) could have been fabricated.

However, it is established fluff that the Emperor may have made a pact with the powers of Chaos. Knowing how ruinous they were, if not evil, the Emperor was a dumb f*** when he made that deal.

However, if we consider honesty to be good, how good can the Emperor be when he builds everything off of lies and willfull deciet? The Imperium was doomed from the start because it was one big lie.

On the other hand, the vision Horus had was not necessarily what was to be, so much as what could be, but the powers of Chaos didn't tell the truth with Horus, as they showed the Emperor as a God, to Horus, and Horus made up his mind to kill the Emperor, thus making him the God he wasn't supposed to become...

All because the powers of Chaos needed the Imperium to degrade into religion so that they could grow strong again.

So, Horus was a pawn, in this case, as he was led to believe something which, as much as it might have been true, was ultimately not.

Admittedly, Horus betrayed a full third of his own legion, and most of the other traitor legions except Lorgar's Word Bearers had to perform similar purges to ensure the success of the Heresy. But, when you look at it from an objective standpoint, you realize Horus was looking at everything he'd helped build, was looking at the world his Father had planned, and his poisoned mind believed that all he beheld would be turned to blasphemous fanes and religion. He believed that the Emperor had orchestrated for his own ascention to God-hood, and that the Imperium would devolve into mindless slavery with the Space Marines standing over the cess as Lords of Flies (which wouldn't have bothered Mortarion any...)

Horus saw himself as being just as righteous as those who supported the Emperor's original crusade to unite Terra and wipe out religion. Because Horus was wiping out the new religion springing up in the Imperium. Or so he thought.

I guess my point is, the Emperor is evil, Horus was more... evil by proxy and evil because he did not think critically about who was giving him the damning evidence against the Emperor, nor how things would eventually play out.

While we could dither on about this all day/night, the reality remains that things happened in Fluff the way they happened, and GW isn't going to change it. Horus was evil his way, the Emperor was/is evil in his way. There's no reason to think either was a goody two shoes who had nothing but good intentions and love in his heart.

EDIT: The Emperor's sword is flaming because it's a force weapon. Who is to say he didn't make it blaze like that only _after_ slaying Sanguinius?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I do somewhat see the idea that perhaps the emperor got rid of Sang. Afterall Sang was his favorite brother. Throughout the Heresy I'm amazed that he didn't try turning some of his brothers like Dorn and Sang. 

There's one scene in Fulgrim where Ferrus actually believes Fulgrim but choses to be blinded and stay faithful. Somewhere in the line he says something like "I know what you say is true, thats why I must kill you."

Another primarch that also questions the Emperor was Corax in Raven's Flight where he critisized the emperor for using him for his vision but however didn't mind as it gave him purpose.

If indeed there was a moment during the battle where the Emperor killed Sang I could see it as kind of what happened with Ferrus. Sang feels deep in his heart that what Horus says is in someway the truth but choses to be blinded. The Emperor comes in and sees Sang destroyed but yet still loyal to what Horus tells him. Emperor kills him to take away his misery and prevent that "half" truth from growing.

When I say truth I'm referring to some of the truths the chaos gods had told Horus. Obviously as a whole they were a lie. But it was the right combinations of truth and lie that gained ability to sink into Horus and the traitor primarchs and gained its ability to deceit. As such I think it could have effected Sang.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

This has turned from Black Rage Theories into a debate over the Emperor's credibility. :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well there really is no proof the emperor killed him. Lol


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> There's one scene in Fulgrim where Ferrus actually believes Fulgrim but choses to be blinded and stay faithful. Somewhere in the line he says something like "I know what you say is true, thats why I must kill you."


You've misunderstood what Ferrus meant- he knew what Fulgrim said was true regarding what Fulgrim believed, that the Emperor's Children's Primarch wasn't lying. That was why Ferrus had to kill him, because Fulgrim fully believed in the reasons he became a traitor.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Fixed Capt. lol And the emperor told him what he was medaling with was dangerous, Magnus was to arrogant to believe that anything was beyond him.


True, but the Emperor played favorites in the Thousand Sons situation. He allowed Magnus and the Thousand Sons to be scapegoats, to be verbally slandered by the Space Wolves and Death Guard. Mortarian didn't use Librarians, fine he gets to cast stones. The Wolves? "sons of the storm" really? They had no right to attack the Thousand Sons, and the Emperor knew this. He knew what the Wolves Rune Priest really were....he could have stopped that "trial", but chose not to because it would have riled other primarchs up. He did that to Magnus because he wanted to save himself aggravation. The Emperor threw his son Magnus, to the Wolves, quite literally, to save himself the problem of addressing what HE was doing and to cover up what Magnus saw when he contacted the Emperor to warn him of Horus' betrayal.

In other words, the Emperor has shown the capacity to sacrifice or discard his sons when the situation called for it. As DarkReaver, Vali and others have said: If Sanginius turned during the confrontation on Horus' ship, once the Emperor arrived, Sang could have confronted his father about the truth. To cover up another of his sons finding out the truth, the Emperor kills Sanginius.

However, in the defense of the Emperor: The Imperium's current lust for genocide and attrocity might not stem from the Emperor himself. Remember his will is interperted, through tarot cards, by men ruling in his stead. Perhaps the Emperor is benevolent and wants the best for humanity and the High Lords of Terra are just homicidal xenophobics ruling in his place? I tend to think this isn't the case, but its possible.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Appease two and anger 1 or anger 2 and appease 1. He had to make the choice. Fact was they wouldn’t have stopped no matter what he did. The emperor was a man that was doing what was needed in my mind. Not good in the typical sense but really I believe he was good in a different sense. IOW he was striving for a greater good at the end.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

By the time the Council of Nikea had occurred Magnus was the Primarch that had been told basically everything by the Emperor (after he discovered the Webway the Emperor even revealed his plans regarding the Imperial Webway tunnel being built in the palace dungeons- something he didn't do with any other Primarch), but Magnus was also the Primarch that betrayed the Emperor 3 times.

He was warned from studying sorcery when he and the Emperor first made contact, he ignored the warnings. He was threatened with destruction if he ignored the Emperor's commands regarding the dicates of Nikea, he disobeyed again when he destroyed the wards protecting the Imperial Webway, dooming the Emperor and the solution to save humanity he'd been working towards for almost the last 40,000 years.

And finally he threw in his lot with Horus- Magnus might have considered himself a loyal son but he was the most disloyal.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I see the blackrage being the rage and state of mind sang was in when he fought the emperor (if he did). Or the black rage is the state of mind, experience he had, as the emperor admitted what horus said.

I also believe the picture depicting horus, sang, and the emp, was that horus and sang fought the emp together, sang was killed, emp was mauled some where in the battle due to having to fight two on one. But in the end emp killed horus but not before being too badly wounded by the two primarchs.

The emp wasn't invincible, a ork warboss nearly strangled him todeath once, till horus saved him.

It is not out of possibility for horus who was being channeled the full power of all the chaos gods, and his brother sang, to both terminally maul the emperor in close quarters combat, even though it cost them both their lives.


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> ...I believe he was good in a different sense. IOW he was striving for a greater good at the end.


How many tyrants have claimed that throughout history only to bring more war and destruction upon it's people.

Back on topic...

Looking a the picture, the wound could have been caused by a talon slashing across Sang...however i see a talon or claw on the Emperor too. So either still could have caused he final blow to Sang.

Most likely this is a piece of fluff GW intentionally put out there to raise just this type of discussion. Same as 2 mystery primarchs, hidden histories, etc. It keeps people involved and it keeps people buying products. How many people may read this and decide to build a Black Legion or a Blood Angles army based on the idea that they "know the truth" of what happened in that room.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He was brutal but there was no other option. And yeah, the theory is plausible but I doubt it for reasons I already stated.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Exactly my way of thinking Raptor, and I myself feel tempted to create a Black Legion army now after debating a bit.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

One mans tyrant is another mans savior.... Well tbh he was a good guy. The world of 30k was only a bit nicer than that of 40k but the imperium during the great crusade was close the the greatest humanity have ever been if not the greatest and the emperor was the only reason humanity has survived this long. Tbh he wasn't evil, like I said he was brutal, but he wasn't evil.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

If you cannot read back in this thread and read all that has been said and still think he wasn't then there is no reason in continuing this debate.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

30k di not have tau, nids or necrons to contend with. The Eldar were basically hiding, and Chaos did not have the strength that it would obtain later. Plus the Imperium was not as brutal as it would later be. So of course it was better.

To the debate, the Emp followed what he saw as the only way forward with utter conviction. He brooked no distraction, not even his sons. In his own eyes, he knew what was best, but as in all cases good and evil depend on the perspective. On that note, I myself would not call him good...

On the Emp Sang Horus thing... Not really sure. Personally I doubt it, but this is exactly the sort of crap that GW would plant.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, random blithering about him being naughty without a singe word that was actually convinceing. Simply spouting out the same nonsense about "that's what all tyrants say" and that horse shit isn't at all convinceing. Sure, the comman man was expendable but they always have been. When the dream came to compleation the fact is that it would have been better for humanity than any point since the fall or maybe even before. Humanity would have been safe and dominance would have been secured. You can't tell me that wasn't where the Imperium was headed. We know he was a credible threat to the chaos gods because of the heresy. It always has to get worse before it gets better.

@serpion,
30k also hade a fractured humanity on it's last legs with no strong power base. But when the emperor came to power and the crusade was launched things got better.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I have to say I kinda side with Gen. Ahab on this one. There's absolutely no reason to believe Sanguineous turned other than wishful thinking. 

That aside there's a little too much examination of good and evil in general. Good and Evil are subjective measures, to the Emperor he is being good, doing what needs to be done etc, from someone else's it might be evil. That would be fine except the 40K Background is childish in it's simplicity, there is a definite good and evil in the 40K universe. Chaos gods are comically evil, too evil to be practical. Thus it is easy to say, the Emperor is good. 

That said, 40K is told as a story of someone looking back in history. So who says the Emperor ever existed, the Primarchs, Ruinous Powers etc all just a fiction to make the Imperium live in fear and worship. Much like a modern day religion. So the answer to all these 'which primarch has the biggest cock' questions is, who ever was writing that chapter of the book at the time decided did. 

Aramoro


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

First off is there any proof other than the words/visions created by deamons that the Emp made a bargain with them? 

Sang didnt side with Horus, the Emp would have had the BA's killed and hunted like all the other traitors, if he would do it to his favourite legions why wouldnt he with them foolish beserkers?

The Emperor was a complete arse btw, but I'd say he was more Qui Gon Jinn than Vader


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm with Aramoro in this one. One cannot discuss the goodness or badness of the Emperor. In game terms the things are simple,he's the good guy and chaos are the bad guys.

Now as for the fluff part, I really don't see it being written solely form the Imperium point of view. I mean, is the fluff on Codex: Chaos Marines written form that perspective? Does it say somewhere, "yeah Chaos are really bad guys, they are so bad they beat their own moms. Therefore hate them and destroy them" or something like that? I think not, things they do are described as neutral as possible IMHO. Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids... 

Now that is not to say that every fluff is not connected to the Imperium and other races (the fall of Craftworld Inyaden (I think) is described in Codex Tyranids from the eldar point of view), cause it is, more so 'cause the Imperium is the biggest realm in the galaxy.

So for what I have read everything is described at least from an observer's point of view, a 3rd person if you like. In this respect I would be really interested in reading the fluff, written by the other side. Hey, Abbadon was there (or at least I think he was) when Horus died, he could have a thing or two to say about that: "That f**** emperor, he killed poor Horus, he was so good and noble and the Emperor slaughtered him with no mercy...bastard" :biggrin:

As for the picture of Empy and Bad-Ass Horus, I have a question which may open new grounds for debate. What in the world means that RED REPTILIAN EYE, in the middle of the picture? It is also in Horus' armor and weirdly enough on SANG's too!! 

Last but not least, the possibility that Sang turned to the dark side, is plausible but not provable, at least not yet. Oh and about the wound, Horus was a great psyker so who's to say he slaughtered Sang with some kind of psyquic knife that tore that wound from the inside out? There is no need to blame only the physical weapons present at the time.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The eye is suppose to be the all seeing eye of the warmaster(going by memory). The one on sang isn't an eye it's a blood drop, I thought that at first. Horus isn't a psyker Magnus is.


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

locustgate said:


> The eye is suppose to be the all seeing eye of the warmaster(going by memory). The one on sang isn't an eye it's a blood drop, I thought that at first. Horus isn't a psyker Magnus is.


Are we talking about the same picture? (see below) No drops of blood from my point of view. There are two on Sang's armor. One on his belt and one on his left shoulder. If those are blood drops, then those are really some BIG blood drops... and BTW only two?

Moreover, in Horus Heresy Collected Visions it says: _"The Warmaster turned his burning gaze on the Custodian and his armour was blasted apart. His flesh flacked away to reveal his skeleton then even that was gone, reduced to dust. It was over in moments."_ So how did Horus manage to do that if not with psyquic powers?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Demonic powers,lazer eyess? that's the first i've ever heard of that, never heard of him having powers and always seen mag referd as the only prim being a true psyker.
If you look realy close it looks like a blood drop, the BA's symbom, makes more sense than an eye.


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

You're right, it makes more sense, I was looking for the "actual" drop not the symbol.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

locustgate said:


> The eye is suppose to be the all seeing eye of the warmaster(going by memory). The one on sang isn't an eye it's a blood drop, I thought that at first. Horus isn't a psyker Magnus is.


It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the primarchs one way or another were psykers due to the fact they were created with the help of the warp gods.



locustgate said:


> Demonic powers,lazer eyess? that's the first i've ever heard of that, never heard of him having powers and always seen mag referd as the only prim being a true psyker.
> If you look realy close it looks like a blood drop, the BA's symbom, makes more sense than an eye.


The source for this is in_ Collected Visions_


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> How do you come to that conclusion?
> Taking away everyones beliefs and freedom?.


I can see what ahab is saying here, people are fundamentaly flawed. Einstein said 'Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former', and he was right. What the Emp was cutting out was factions warring against each other. Mankind couldn't survive or move on to greater things while it was fighting itself. If you look at 40k now and say he was evil, take him out the picture and look at what 40k would be, mankind will have spent all the time up to the heresey fighting itself until either chaos got a hold of Terra, or mankind was wiped out by one of the abundant races that would have seen the pitiful feuding humans as either a future threat, or lunch.




KingOfCheese said:


> Every race wishes to elevate their race to great heights. Does that mean that all races are good?.


In terms of human against human? No. But when every other race in the universe is out to get you, then kind of. Eldar I would say is a yes (they're trying to survive and can be worked with), tau I would say yes (same again), nids and necs I'd say no. Chaos, defo not, Orks, well they're a strange one. Depends how you look at them, they remind me of scallies, so probably yes.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

DonFer said:


> Are we talking about the same picture? (see below) No drops of blood from my point of view. There are two on Sang's armor. One on his belt and one on his left shoulder. If those are blood drops, then those are really some BIG blood drops... and BTW only two?


Aye, there's a smaller winged blood drop on Sang's left knee too, but bigger ones on his chest and shoulder, they're rounder at the base than horus's odd eye things.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Grins1878 said:


> In terms of human against human? No. But when every other race in the universe is out to get you, then kind of. Eldar I would say is a yes (they're trying to survive and can be worked with), tau I would say yes (same again), nids and necs I'd say no. Chaos, defo not, Orks, well they're a strange one. Depends how you look at them, they remind me of scallies, so probably yes.


I'll raise you one and say there are absolutely no Xenos that could be worked with. Consider, eldar have been known to destroy human colonies because they were seeded by the eldar before the fall. The tau have their manifest destiny going on, and considering their philosiphy on that is "join or die", can't really work with them either. They will not be satisfied until they dominate the galaxy.

Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Necons, Chaos... 

There really is no major force in the galaxy that does not wish, on some level, to see humanity destroyed, enslaved, or brought under. 

So yes, it is quite ok and *moral*, under these circumstances, to wish the destruction of alien species, given the 40k universe.


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

gally912 said:


> ...So yes, it is quite ok and *moral*, under these circumstances, to wish the destruction of alien species, given the 40k universe.


Though the Emperor decreed to destroy all Xenos, regardless of intentions. In HH Fulgrim, The Emperors Children and Iron Fists destroy the Diasporex simply because they have xenos working alongside humans, even though they have no ill intent against the Imperium. In Tales of Heresy the Word Bearers destroy a world that worships the Emperor. In Horus Rising the Luna Wolves first battle is against a world that's called Terra and simply doesn't want anything to do with the Imperium.

I don't find destroying a peaceful civilization very "moral" simply because the peoples there are different.

There are a whole list of historical figures who did the same thing: Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin. They all destroyed other civilizations for the sheer fact that they were not part of the despots civilization. None of those figures I would call moral even though they were doing what they felt was best for their people at the time.

Also, destroying all religion is no better than forcing ones religion on others. He simply replaced religion with the imperial truth.

Calling the Emperor moral and right is the same as calling the chaos gods moral and right. They destroy and enslave others to increase their own powers and I would hardly call them moral in what they do. Without enslaved worshipers the chaos gods are not as powerful so they enslave others as a matter of existence. The Emperor can hardly say he would die if he doesn't conquer new worlds. In this aspect, chaos could almost be considered more right because they would die without conquering and spreading chaos because they would have a "right to exist".

The "join or die" or die mentality of the Tau is hardly different than the "convert or die" of the Imperium of either 30k or 40k.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Raptor_00 said:


> Though the Emperor decreed to destroy all Xenos, regardless of intentions. In HH Fulgrim, The Emperors Children and Iron Fists destroy the Diasporex simply because they have xenos working alongside humans, even though they have no ill intent against the Imperium. In Tales of Heresy the Word Bearers destroy a world that worships the Emperor. In Horus Rising the Luna Wolves first battle is against a world that's called Terra and simply doesn't want anything to do with the Imperium.
> 
> I don't find destroying a peaceful civilization very "moral" simply because the peoples there are different.


Nice way of twisting the facts to fit your own view point you've got going there- are you a politician by any chance?
The Word Bearers destroyed a civilisation that used sophisticated A.I- something that had been outlawed by the Emperor because of the horrors of the wars between the Stone and Iron Men- plus they didn't know that civilisation worshipped the Emperor until after it was destroyed (and the fact Lorgar had already betrayed his father and turned to worshipping Chaos doesn't help your argument).

The people of false Terra attacked the Luna Wolves diplomatic envoy first, Horus' Legion merely reacts.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

gally912 said:


> So yes, it is quite ok and *moral*, under these circumstances, to wish the destruction of alien species, given the 40k universe.


Sold. I stand corrected, those pesky aliens can all go to hell!


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

In the picture of Sang, horus, and the emperor I noticed some thing interesting....Sang's broken sword is eminating smoke from the area where it was broken (cut in two) at. As well as the edges of where it was broken at (cut in two) is glowing a magma like orange, as if what ever cut it was extremely hot to the point where it caused the metal of it to smolder and smoke, as seen by the smoldering orange of the edges where it is cut as well as the smoke coming off of it.

The only weapon in the picture which is heat based and on fire, would be the emperor's weapon.

Also additionally, Sang's body positioning shows that when he fell down he was likely facing the emperor's direction and not Horus's, meaning he had his back to horus, and was facing the emperor.

The emperor aside from having his flaming force sword, also has a claw like weapon on his left hand.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

All of the weapons are bathed in energy fields. Not a good indicator of anything tbh.


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Nice way of twisting the facts to fit your own view point you've got going there- are you a politician by any chance?
> The Word Bearers destroyed a civilisation that used sophisticated A.I- something that had been outlawed by the Emperor because of the horrors of the wars between the Stone and Iron Men- plus they didn't know that civilisation worshipped the Emperor until after it was destroyed (and the fact Lorgar had already betrayed his father and turned to worshipping Chaos doesn't help your argument).
> 
> The people of false Terra attacked the Luna Wolves diplomatic envoy first, Horus' Legion merely reacts.


Yes because declaring any civilization with a different level of technology is the epitome of reason and understanding. The Emperor outlaws any technology and knowledge that could possibly be used o dethrone him or give a greater understanding of cultures and species in the universe so the societies using them must be destroyed.

As for he false Terra, seeing a dozen war ships bearing down on your world does not give me the warm fuzzy of friendship but makes me feel as if I am to be conquered.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They sent a peaceful envoy. The warships were on the outer edge of the system. BTW they slaughtered the PEACEFUL envoy. They instigated the hostilities. They outlawed AI for a reason, it was to dangerous...... wtf am I explaining this, Baron made it all perfectly clear. If you can't accept it you never will.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Raptor_00 said:


> Yes because declaring any civilization with a different level of technology is the epitome of reason and understanding. The Emperor outlaws any technology and knowledge that could possibly be used o dethrone him or give a greater understanding of cultures and species in the universe so the societies using them must be destroyed.
> 
> As for he false Terra, seeing a dozen war ships bearing down on your world does not give me the warm fuzzy of friendship but makes me feel as if I am to be conquered.


It's not that they've got a different level of technology, but that A.I was the reason for the most horrific wars, splintering humanity before the Emperor arose to unfiy Terra. Plus as I've said by this time Lorgar had already secretly fallen to chaos so he wasn't exactly acting with the Emperor's blessing.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

According what ive read recently and in past of these last moments on Vengeful spirit.

Sanguinius was teleported to chamber of Horus were he tried to turn him to traitors side. Sanguinius refused and fight followed. Horus used his bare hands to kill Sanguinius maybe even strangling him. 

After this happened, every Blood Angel had vision like they were Sanguinius themselves and experienced lhis last moments. They understood that their primarch was now dead they were consumed by anger and with berserk rage charged towards traitors forces.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, I thought Horus had supposedly killed Sanguinius even before the Emperor found them which means that going on just that picture is a little dubious cause I can't see them all just standing around in the exact same positions until the Emperor gets there. But then again, I might be wrong.
Also, I don't think the way the Emperor went about the Great Crusade was the best way to do it. The Interex, another human civilisation, seemed to function pretty well without killing everything that didn't agree with them, even going so far is to find peaceful solutions to violent problems (look what they did with the Megarachnids). Also, they knew about and opposed chaos and, if anything, it united them even more as an empire as opposed to the Emperor's fears of chaos corrupting everyone who knew about it.

BTW Orks aren't evil, they're just misunderstood:biggrin:


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