# Angels of Death Space Marine Supplement



## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

It's a compilation of all sorts of things. Lots of old Dataslates are being put in here, INCLUDING Skyhammer. It's also going to have all of the stuff from the old Clan Raukaan supplement (they mention the Gorgon's Chain), so presumably also the Sentinels of Terra.

Looks like also 4 new power sets, usable by ANY Astartes.

40k rules for some of the models from Calth as well... Cataphract Terminators, and possibly the two HQ units? I doubt they'd step on FW's toes for the Contemptor.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Think I've read it's a paper back release too. Should save some currencies.

EDIT: Not that I've played any 30k, but shouldn't they have let the CSM use their 30k stuff too?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> Cataphract Terminators, and possibly the two HQ units?


Terminators
Terminator Captain
Contemptor

Three units that don't have rules from GW for 40k.

Nice to see DA, GK, SW, and BA will get access to the new Disciplines. Might have to get a set of the cards if there's anything interesting there for me. I rarely play Psykers but one day BA will get a Librarius Conclave of some kind.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Terminators
> Terminator Captain
> Contemptor
> 
> ...


Not sure if they'd release a contemptor, since FW still mass produces those rules. If anything, I was thinking maybe the Termi-Captain and possibly a new Chaplain (which I believe someone said was the other HQ it comes with).

I saw a few of the power cards in more leaks, I'll have to try and dig it up again. One of the 'earthmancy' powers was actually a healing spell, plus IWND. The lightning one gave you an invul... and one of the 'Librarius' powers let you and your unit reroll saves.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Non-bundle reprint of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force?

We're back in business, boyos.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> Not sure if they'd release a contemptor, since FW still mass produces those rules.


So? FW also produced all those models in super costly resin and now it's plastic. They say 'three *new* units' and a Chaplain certainly is nothing new.



Xabre said:


> I'll have to try and dig it up again.


Don't forget your shovel.






























MidnightSun said:


> Non-bundle reprint of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force?
> 
> We're back in business, boyos.


Wait....has not having a physical copy ever stopped you from using it?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> So? FW also produced all those models in super costly resin and now it's plastic. They say 'three *new* units' and a Chaplain certainly is nothing new.


Models =/= rules. Nothing that GW produced in Calth ever overrode FW rules. People were simply using the new cheaper plastic models instead of FW's resin marks of armor. They were still using FW's rules for the model.

We've always had a Captain in Terminator armor, so what's different between that and a 'Terminator Captain'?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Wonder if this will allow BA, DA or SW to use Skyhammer?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Wonder if this will allow BA, DA or SW to use Skyhammer?


They already can really. It's how you can tell who the 'real' BA players are :laugh:

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hectic FAQ released after this book comes out.



Xabre said:


> We've always had a Captain in Terminator armor, so what's different between that and a 'Terminator Captain'?


Sigh. OK, here's a list of the five units we get in the BaC box:

Tactical marines
Chaplain
Contemptor
Cataphractii Terminators
Cataphractii Praetor

Still think we're getting new rules for stuff we already have? I know I didn't stipulate the type of TDA but c'mon dude. I know you like playing Devil's Advocate but this is just silly.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ntaw said:


> They already can really. It's how you can tell who the 'real' BA players are :laugh:


You mean people not using the rules properly or playing them as vanilla marines?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Sigh. OK, here's a list of the five units we get in the BaC box:
> 
> Tactical marines
> Chaplain
> ...


No, it's just me trying to process. Adding a unit of Cataphractii makes perfect sense if they're going to play it separate from standard terminators. And a Praetor could be a different category of HQ, with some other stats, wargear, purpose, etc. But just doing a cataph captain with a different wargear as a captain seems redundant. Make a Praetor different from a captain however... that's an option.

Likewise, and we saw this recently with the changes to Iron Priests, we COULD see the return of the Reclusiarch, using the new Chaplain model. DAs still have them (Intero-chappys), so...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> You mean people not using the rules properly or playing them as vanilla marines?


I mean people who play the game for rules and rock 'red marines' with a Blood Angel force instead of actually using the rules for the army. Everyone gets to play the game the way they want though, it was really just a joke.



Xabre said:


> just doing a cataph captain with a different wargear as a captain seems redundant


Just add:

* may be upgraded to Praetor for x points
* Praetor may take Catapeabsdjkgvb (stupid fake words) armour for x points

Or do a whole new entry just like with the Iron Priest, as you pointed out.



Xabre said:


> we COULD see the return of the Reclusiarch, using the new Chaplain model


Have vanilla SM ever had access to a Reclusiarch before? I can't recall it ever being the case. I mean you're right in saying that it could happen, but we don't have Catafraktie rules for 40k so that seems the obvious choice.



Xabre said:


> DAs still have them (Intero-chappys), so...


I-Cs do not equal Reclusiarch's in any way outside their stats. Fluff is totally different for each, plus BA still have a (the) Reclusiarch: Astorath.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Just add:
> 
> * may be upgraded to Praetor for x points
> * Praetor may take Catapeabsdjkgvb (stupid fake words) armour for x points
> ...


I realize that in 30k, a Praetor was basically the captain, but maybe we can see it have a different role in 40k... rather than it being Captain > Praetor > Ch Master. Not sure how it would work. I don't play 30k to really know how the Praetor's customize, but maybe something with better WS, worse BS as a melee HQ or some such.

And I wasn't referring to Intero-Chappys and RElusiarchs being the same fluff. I simply meant a tier-2 statline. We used to have the Techmarine and the Master of the Forge, and I THOUGHT that other factions used to have Chaplain And Reclusiarch, and then in 7E they removed both the Master, and the Reclusiarch....

and then gave Space Wolves back the Master of the Forge in their crazy 'let's screw with Iron Priests' move.

I expect to see a 'Cataphfracti Terminator Squad' as one of the entries. I just don't expect to see a 'Captain in Catasomething Armor' as its own entry, rather new wargear upgrade for the Captain.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> I just don't expect to see a 'Captain in Catasomething Armor' as its own entry


I don't think people expected to be able to choose which Iron Priest profile suited their list more, either :laugh:

In either case, out of the five units from the box three don't have rules for 40k and without dredging up a unit title that has been officially retired I would surmise those are the three units we'll be seeing rules for whether by datasheet or wargear upgrade allowance.

Aside, I thought the term Reclusiarch was still kicking around but nope. All Chaplains belong to the Reclusiam and there's a High Chaplain now (at least in the BA and SM 'dex).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> I don't think people expected to be able to choose which Iron Priest profile suited their list more, either :laugh:


In fairness, that was a stop-gap for the week in between WD and Curse of the Wulfen; as an actual proper release book, I doubt Angels of Death will have such measures in it


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

^ Isn't it still the case though, SW players are free to choose whether they want to rock either the CotW HQ option or the C:SW Elites choice?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)




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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Where do you get these arcane glimpses before stuff gets released?


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## LordOfTheWolves (May 28, 2015)

Technomancy? 
My iron wolves rune priests are trembling with anticipation.


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## jams (Sep 19, 2009)

Interesting that there's a separate entry for the deathwatch on that reference card when the named librarian in the boxed game is restricted to biomancy powers only...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Tyriks said:


> Where do you get these arcane glimpses before stuff gets released?


I guess I internets good? 

...other forums.



LordOfTheWolves said:


> Technomancy?
> My iron wolves rune priests are trembling with anticipation.


Same with my Librarian Dreadnoughts!



jams said:


> Interesting that there's a separate entry for the deathwatch on that reference card when the named librarian in the boxed game is restricted to biomancy powers only...


They're a Faction of Space Marines so they had to be there. We've already seen the Deathwatch game expanded to included Tempestus Scions, it would be no surprise to see Deathwatch as a Faction expanded for 40k.

Preorders are up, from the GW site:



> The Librarius Discipline, allowing the channeling of fury into devastating psychic assaults;
> The Technomancy Discipline, allowing the manipulation of weapons, machines and machine spirits;
> The Fulmination Discipline, allowing control over electricity and magnetic forces;
> The Geokinesis Discipline, allowing control and manipulation of the battlefield and battlefield terrain.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Other leaks that I've seen include the Raptor Wing (previous in Kauyon for Ravenguard) and an extremely blurry formation that included one Stormraven, one squad of terminators, and one Dreadnought, Venerable dreadnought, ironclad dreadnought, or Contemptor dreadnought. 

Lot of updating from existing printings to include Calth profits.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Hey @Xabre, from the GW site on what AoD includes:



> rules for the Terminator Captain, Cataphractii Terminators and Contemptor Dreadnought


When ya gunna start trusting me? :laugh:


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Hey @Xabre, from the GW site on what AoD includes:
> 
> 
> 
> When ya gunna start trusting me? :laugh:


When GW actually makes ideas that make sense and actually logical leaps.

Although while the blurb mentions the captain, the screen shot I saw earlier did not. I just can't remember what I was looking this morning.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

How about the table of contents?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Right, I'll shut up now.

That does, however, at least confirm most of the rest of what I thought. Aside from the Strike Forces (the meta-detachments), every one of those formations has been around before.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

From the GW site, on Technomancy:



> ...particularly the fiendish Technomancy Discipline, which is all about domination of machinery, both yours and your opponent’s. This Discipline’s Primaris Power is able to force enemy units to fire only Snap Shots, or even take them over entirely: pick the biggest tank your enemy has and turn it against them! Another standout, Warpmetal Armour, adds Armour Values to units on a successful roll.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

I really don't want to spend money on anything but models until I can get a complete army going, but this just looks good! I'll have to peruse a copy as soon as I can.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

Wait, is the Deathwatch in this book?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Einherjar667 said:


> Wait, is the Deathwatch in this book?


It's a suggestion that in the future there may be more Deathwatch, and that the existing army datasheets can become special characters in that book.

because right now, the Raven librarian only has access to Biomancy.

Or it might mean that that Raven librarian can use Biomancy PLUS those four powers.

But no, best I can tell, nothing else about DW exists in here. Just like nothing else for GK or BA exists in here, but they're listed on the power cards.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> ^ Isn't it still the case though, SW players are free to choose whether they want to rock either the CotW HQ option or the C:SW Elites choice?


Nah, I'm 90% sure there's a blurb in CotW that it replaces the Iron Priest statline in C:SW; the WD 'pick which unit you want' was transitional to get you by until they could sell you the new rules in a more expensive book.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

Xabre said:


> It's a suggestion that in the future there may be more Deathwatch, and that the existing army datasheets can become special characters in that book.
> 
> because right now, the Raven librarian only has access to Biomancy.
> 
> ...


At least that means there might be a full book at some point in the future, maybe.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Well this is cool. All tank list??? I did just come into owning a fourth Land Raider...


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Can something like that Anvil Strike Force be used by BA, DA or SW? I can't find anything in the text that says one way or the other. Since there are unit options on that list that they can't use, but it says that it is usable by "Adeptus Astartes," I feel like you could argue either way.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm gunna go with no. All the vernacular in the book refers to Codex Space Marines and there's units in the Formation that aren't in the Codices you mentioned. The book shows up in the other faction's sections on the GW website but that is very likely only because the psychic disciplines and versatility of some of the Fornations.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Well this is cool. All tank list??? I did just come into owning a fourth Land Raider...


I got into a huge argument on FB about this one yesterday. He ended up blocking me when I proved to him that there are NO new formations in the book, using this very screenshot.

Interesting to note that the Warhammer World exclusive HQ tanks made it into that book as one of the Command choices.

And @Tyriks - check out the image Ntaw posted for Armored Might. Left page, second column, first paragraph. It states that it's available for a Battle Forged Space Marine army.

Unfortunately, Blood Angels are not Space Marines, per the codices. They're Blood Angels.

The same thing is going to apply to Talon Strike Force (Ravenguard), Flameblade Strike Force (Sallies), Sons of Medusa Strike Force (Iron Hands), Sternhammer (Fists), Scarsblade (White Scars).


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Just me that's insanely curious about the Salamanders stuff in the contents page?

I guess they had to throw all of the updates into one book just to realise who they'd missed.

I've not played 30k, (and as far as I'm aware, no one locally does), but I'm very excited to have an excuse to pick up some Contemptors. Always had a thing for the models.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

The Contemptor page was leaked; you can squadron them, but no bonus for 3. You also get access to one melta, which gets replaced with a Kheres for 15, I believe. So... eh. but it does get to replace ANY spot in a formation/detachment where it requires a dreadnought. That includes a Demi-Company.

Salamanders will get warlord traits, relics, and their own version of the Gladius.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> I proved to him that there are NO new formations in the book, using this very screenshot.


What, this screenshot of a new Decurion-style Formation that uses existing Formations to give you totally new army options that didn't exist before?



Rush Darling said:


> Just me that's insanely curious about the Salamanders stuff in the contents page?


I forget that some people only come to Heresy for their rumour mongering. These pics have been around for a few days now, hopefully they will help with some of that you're looking for:




























Hey @Xabre, what do you make of the Stormlance Battle Demi Company and the Flamebringers Formations listed there, just renamed Formations that already existed or what bud?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

ntaw said:


> Hey @Xabre, what do you make of the Stormlance Battle Demi Company and the Flamebringers Formations listed there, just renamed Formations that already existed or what bud?


A formation is a pre-set selection of models, signified in a datasheet by a symbol of three skulls inside of a circle. 

A detachment is a force org chart, created by putting together your choice from different categories. usually this is HQ, Troops, Elites, etc, but in the case of the 'Decurions', it's created by choosing from Cores, Aux, and Command.

Sternhammer, Flameblade, Anvil, and Sons of Medusa Strike Forces are four new Detachments that were created entirely by selecting Core, Aux and Command choices out of reprinted or existing Formations.

Stormlance, btw, was released in Kau'yon as the optional demi company for the White Scars. And then re-released in the White Scars e-book. But what do I know know?

@ntaw, I'm getting sick and tired of you fucking attacking me. I'm done. Peace out, Heresy.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> I'm getting sick and tired of you fucking attacking me.


That's cool, I'm getting sick of you being so forceful with your opinions of new releases which are often flat out wrong. You didn't even admit when you're wrong when I quoted the actual GW site at you. Don't get all flamey when you're wrong dude, move on with new information. 

There's two Formations which make up the Flameblade Strike Force that I've never seen before, the Stormlance Battle Demi-Company (Core) and the Flamebringer (Auxiliary). Regardless of the context of your fight with _someone else_ I figured asking you about it would be pertinent since you seem to know a lot about it. Your firm stance on this (and many other) matters warranted a good ol' Canadian 'bud' at the end of the sentence, in an attempt to break the tension that you seemed to be holding onto. 

I mean, even if every Formation in the book is a reprint of the various sourcebooks out there SM have never been able to take the Armoured Task Force as a Core choice and they've never been able to elect a Vehicle as Warlord (maybe Chronus, but either way it's not like you could take tanks as a Command choice either). It may very well be an entire rehash of what's out there, but the differences in organization in the Strike Forces are not what we had before and as such are new to players.

Heck, I initially typed something that could have been construed as more inflammatory but edited it out based on consideration for you and the conversations we've had. I mean it's cool if you want to fuck off from Heresy, I feel the same way to be perfectly honest, but it honestly just sounds like you don't want to have another conversation where you might be proved less than right in after getting into it with some stunned cunt on Facebook.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

Both of you, Don't quit the entire site just cause of this. Let's just let this deescalate and move on.


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## LordOfTheWolves (May 28, 2015)

ntaw said:


> Same with my Librarian Dreadnoughts!


I have always been jealous of Blood angels and their librarian dreadnoughts! But good shout. Depending on warp charge costs it could make them a far tougher nut to crack. 



ntaw said:


> ...particularly the fiendish Technomancy Discipline, which is all about domination of machinery, both yours and your opponent’s. This Discipline’s Primaris Power is able to force enemy units to fire only Snap Shots, or even take them over entirely: pick the biggest tank your enemy has and turn it against them! Another standout, Warpmetal Armour, adds Armour Values to units on a successful roll.


So on board with this! Perhaps might help out our poor dreadnoughts...


Please don't fight! Don't make me choose who I have to live with :cray:


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Cheers for the links Ntaw, so much info and yet so little! May actually have to motivate myself to buying this one a little more promptly than usual. Though now I'm very glad I didn't fork out for that filthy Kauyon Supplement (grumble grumble).


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## TheV0791 (Jul 14, 2014)

Huge Crimson Fists fan here, but it looks like our content is relatively minimal? At least compared to White Scars and Iron Hands (I guess we are a second founding's chapter though). I am most excited for the psychic powers as I loves me some librarians, Earthomancy or whatever seems pretty neat... Playing with the terrain and all, can't wait to see more powers!


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

LordOfTheWolves said:


> Depending on warp charge costs it could make them a far tougher nut to crack.


I really hope it raises all AV and not just one facing. WC2, maybe WC1 if it's only one side?



Rush Darling said:


> Though now I'm very glad I didn't fork out for that filthy Kauyon Supplement (grumble grumble).


This is why I only own physical copies of the BA 'dex and the BRB and digital copies of any/everything else. I can't go spending $30-60 every time a new Formation comes out :no:


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## Brother Armiger (Mar 24, 2016)

I'm interested in this, but I can't see how I -need- it running Black Templars.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The inflammatory BS and targeted comments are going to stop. Discuss the things, don't waste time taking jabs or inferring insults from others' posts. 


On a not mod note, I do like that gw is coming out with more of these. I've found that formations are making the game a hell of a lot more fun with the less restrictive army building options.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Brother Armiger said:


> I'm interested in this, but I can't see how I -need- it running Black Templars.


But what about all of the gloooorious psychic pow....oh.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe alot of the formations are available for all chapters, in spite of originally appearing in chapter specific supplements. I have noticed a distinct lack of librarians in nearly every formation (seriously, are they anywhere but the conclave?) so I always just assumed it was so BTs didn't feel left out.

Hell, I don't even think the RG Talon Strike Force / Decurion / Super-detachment even has the Librarius Conclave listed. It's just one big wonderful mess of scouts and flyers.

The new supplement does mention "Crimson Fists and Black Templars Warlord traits" as listed on page 85, but no idea if these are from the fists original supplement.

EDIT: I guess the subject of -need- comes down to where you play. Whilst I predominantly game with my club in my friends garage, my local gdubs (all gdubs?) does insist on players having all relevant rules / materials to hand when playing a game. Pulling it up on battlescribe doesn't quite cut it / causes frowny faces.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> I've found that formations are making the game a hell of a lot more fun with the less restrictive army building options.


For better or worse it's the way the game is now, and it only seems to be picking up steam. I've noticed with at least the Anvil Strike Force that you can cherry pick units via Mechanized Infantry Auxiliary option, though as per the Strike Force's special rules all Infantry must have a Transport vehicle. I'm finding a hard time thinking of Unbound lists that even hold a candle to what you can take with Formations these days: I could drop a Command Land Raider and a Land Raider Spearhead and play four nigh unstoppable tanks at 1k. Want to make them even harder to kill and bump up the points a touch? Take four Techmarine Auxiliary choices and put them inside said Land Raiders (the TMs being Infantry need to be inside a transport and they would be, this seem legal at the moment). Maybe not the most competitive but it wasn't possible a week ago and maybe I just came into owning a fourth Land Raider so this appeals to me :grin: I wonder if the general gripe against Unbound lists is what brought GW to this point? 

I agree that having less restrictions on what's in your army is a great direction. Not that I have yet, but I eventually want to build a Daemon army for AoS (and 40k of course) purely because I can take whatever models/units I want and play the game without worry or care for Detachment or Formation requirements.



Rush Darling said:


> Don't quote me on this, but I believe alot of the formations are available for all chapters


All Formations presented in this book "can be included in any Battle-Forged Space Marine army", so you're good to go.


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## LordOfTheWolves (May 28, 2015)

ntaw said:


> I really hope it raises all AV and not just one facing. WC2, maybe WC1 if it's only one side?


One can hope its like the crafty Storm power for the Eldar, the more warp charges put in the greater the effect, so WC1 for Front, WC2 for front and side, etc. But that just complicates everything! 

I'm enjoying the freedom of formations and being rewarded for taking some interesting lists. But it is so damn easy for people who just care about winning to abuse them to create unholy armies of doom.

But that's not what this thread is for so I'll shut up and look at the shiny new marines


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

^ apparently it's a WC2 24" blessing that raises all side's AV by one or grants +1T in non vehicle units.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

*reinstates the Librarius Conclave instead of the Psykana Division*
*salivates*

Tigurius, you glorious blue bastard, come back to me and show my enemies what it means to be an AV15/14/11 tank squadron!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

24" bubble of -2 Invuln?

Hello, game-changer.










Crap. +1 Toughness/AV is hilarious on Pask and his buddies or on an Imperial Knight, basically everything else can suck it.










Mostly garbage but Magnetokinesis and the ol' switcheroo are both awesome. Centurions are now 24" move, and the train has no brakes. Bringing a Librarius just for this and Null Zone.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Geokinesis, with some hilarious opportunities for cheesery on the 6th power.


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

A friend of mine plays Black Legion, and I feel guilty getting shiny new space marine toys.


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## TheV0791 (Jul 14, 2014)

So, is there any reason one would not be able to place their own Vanguard Veteran Squad on a piece of terrain and use it as a 24" moving assault vehicle? T0, deploy on some woods, T1, psychic yourself 24" up the table and assault. Sounds fun as hell... Or put ignores cover on some Sternguard for when you can't choose between ignores cover and 2+ poison/AP 3 (gives you both). I'm gonna enjoy Geokinesis... I'd say it seems more fun than cheesy but eh... it depends I guess.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

TheV0791 said:


> So, is there any reason one would not be able to place their own Vanguard Veteran Squad on a piece of terrain and use it as a 24" moving assault vehicle?


It has potential, but i'd put it in the "extremely situational" category. It's probably of limited use in my local gaming group, purely due to the nature of the scenery we use. (There's usually lots of little pieces scattered about, so you'd have very limited options to place any piece of scenery big enough to carry a squad.) That, and the fact it's a warp charge 3 power, which I generally have trouble casting at the best of times. HI PERILS.

The fact that it's not 100% percent reliable hopefully makes it, as you said, fun rather than cheesy. We'll see if my opponents see it that way. ^^

I'll probably be playing around with Fulmination first. Really like the look of that whole discipline.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Librarius Conclave attached to whatever deathstar unit you'd like atop/within whatever piece of scenery you wish to fling across the table for a T1 decapitation. The only unreliable thing here is being able to place the terrain in a good spot, but the Conclave makes it more reliable than a Drop Pod otherwise.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Having played with Technomancy against a fully mechanised Iron Warriors list, I can confirm that it's garbage. Best thing I got out of it all game was my phone autocorrecting Wrath of Mars to Wrath of Arse, which was both hilarious and accurate.

From closer analysis of the others, they're all very hit-and-miss, fairly shitty disciplines - a big part of which is crap Primaris Powers. With Divination or Malefic or Telepathy you can roll on it with a Level 1 or Level 2 Psyker and if you fudge the roll, you can still sit there, donate warp charge and throw out Psychic Shrieks/Presciences/Summonings. The Space Marine disciplines? If you're on Librarius you're irrelevant without Null Zone or Veil of Time, for Technomancy you need Warpmetal Armour and if you're allied in to a faction that actually has good tanks then the repair and POTMS ones are decent enough (although hardly impressive); Fulmination has better-Levitation and the ol' Switcheroo (which is totally worth it just to get out of combat with a relevant unit, it's basically auto-Hit and Run) with the other powers all being universally garbage (most Psykers don't really have enough the statline to make Electric Fists truly scary, bar lucking out with a Librarius Conclave to stack it with Warp Speed at which point you can muscle wizard your way through a whole squad of Orks or Gaunts and laugh inanely). Geomancy is probably the best; Landquake's reasonable as stopping Run and Flat Out is actually something Eldar will really hate you for, and is a useful utility power in a lot of situations (fuck you, Orks, you don't get your racial bonus!), Phase Form is Perfect Timing that can be cast on vehicles or other squads that got isolated and need the bonus, and therefore very powerful; Worldscape I'm not sold on as you need to fit into a terrain piece, have an appropriate terrain piece to hand, have enough dice to cast it and all the other powers you need (WC3 isn't hard to do for a Librarius, but taking 4 dice out of your pool makes it a big opportunity cost against casting Invisibility, Prescience, Veil of Time, Endurance, and other powers you probably want to have active), not to mention you kinda need to build around it.

If you want to use the Space Marine disciplines, bring Tigurius or Loth, because otherwise you're going to end up with a useless dead weight Librarian most games who'll sit on his ass with a Haywire beam and a 'you might not get to fire your pintle Heavy Stubber' malediction.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

:laugh:

_Today, on Sunny Side Up with MidnightSun_

Not that I disagree with you really. Any thoughts on using Fulmination's Electrodisplacement to pull off a T1 charge?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Not that I disagree with you really. Any thoughts on using Fulmination's Electrodisplacement to pull off a T1 charge?


You bring down a unit in a Drop Pod so you have someone in charge range of something _to_ switch with, then don't scatter out of charge range or Electrodiscplacement range, then cast the power. Great, you got your turn one charge, but now you've got a unit that has no transport teleported back to wherever your Librarius deployed, and since you move about in the Psychic Phase, said unit that came out of a Drop Pod has no chance to shoot to clear a hole in bubble-wrap. So sure, yeah, do the turn 1 charge, but you'll need three Drop Pods, at least two of them with units in, or you're just going to charge a Termagant or Guardsman or Fire Warrior screen and then get shot to shit by the whole enemy army, and to shit it will most certainly be because you shot your entire load on this shitty discipline instead of Invisibility/Shrouding, or Endurance, or Sanctuary, or whatever.

I think it's best used as a counter-attacking 'firefighter' power; you can bring Tigurius and a squad of Honour Guard or Assault Terminators and you don't have to actually bring any kind of delivery mechanism for them. You've now got a 24" bubble (i.e. most of the table, and almost certainly your whole army) in which you can drag shooting units out of combats and replace them with your melee units. It removes the option for your opponent to 'shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff', because as soon as he gets into melee you replace whatever he's engaged with your ballsiest melee unit. That's good, for sure, but you could already do turn 1 charges with a similar level of reliability (i.e. not very much) with the Wulfen formation letting TWC move twice, so I don't think this is a game-changer by any means.

No, the game-changer is Null Zone, by a loooong way. That's... a really kind of huge power to come into the game.

EDIT: I'm also going to explain right here before anyone jumps to albeit justifiable conclusions; Phase Shift is really good, because giving out Ignores Cover is a *really* strong ability and Move Through Cover is never a bad thing to have. However, the 'shoot through walls' thing is _way_ worse than it sounds, because hilariously it contains no proviso for allocating wounds; it lets you _shoot_ at people out of Line of Sight, but it doesn't let you allocate to anyone. You roll to hit, roll to wound, and the wound pool immediately disappears because none of them can be allocated. Now, there is a bit under Blasts that lets you allocate out of Line of Sight, so putting it on Plasma Cannon Devastators or a Leman Russ or god forbid a Demolisher squadron would be fairly horrifying with that Ignores Cover, but on most things it doesn't actually function.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> You bring down a unit in a Drop Pod so you have someone in charge range of something to switch with, then don't scatter out of charge range or Electrodiscplacement range, then cast the power.


It would indeed require some ridiculous setup for it to be worthwhile.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There's also the fact that other than the Battle Company, Space Marines just aren't a top-tables army anyway; if you're in a Battle Company, then what are you going to slingshot into melee? Between your Company and a Librarius and an Auxiliary you're very quickly hitting 1850pts; even if you play 2k, what good melee unit are you picking up for 150pts? And if you're in it to win it, you're probably running White Scars, at which point you have no good way of guaranteeing the power because as I said, you need Tigurius or Loth to realistically use these disciplines. You've got a not-insignificant chance of having to roll all of your Librarians on this shitty, shitty discipline to get the one power you wanted, leaving you with a big pile of garbage abilities you wish you'd traded for Invisibility, Terrify, Shrouding, Psychic Shriek, and Mental Fortitude which are all, y'know, very strong powers.

If you're not in the Battle Company, you're still not on the level with Eldar or Decurion Necrons or some of the other builds out there because other than 'you can't possible kill this much Objective Secured' Space Marines... kinda don't have all that much going for them, in truth - at least in 'I want to make a winner' terms, in my opinion it's the best Codex ever released for 'I have some Space Marine models and want a million fluffy, fun ways to run them that are all at least viable', but that's not the point in contention. They're good, absolutely, better than most of the Codexes in the game, and they have stuff like Grav Centurions and Honour Guard which are very solid units in their own right, but are they Eldar/Necrons/Daemons/Tau/arguably War Convocation tier as a whole army? Nah, I wouldn't say so. Your mileage may vary, but I've not found Space Marines to be this game-wrecking thing and adding some quirky psychic powers isn't going to help that.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

MidnightSun said:


> There's also the fact that other than the Battle Company, Space Marines just aren't a top-tables army anyway; if you're in a Battle Company, then what are you going to slingshot into melee? Between your Company and a Librarius and an Auxiliary you're very quickly hitting 1850pts; even if you play 2k, what good melee unit are you picking up for 150pts? And if you're in it to win it, you're probably running White Scars, at which point you have no good way of guaranteeing the power because as I said, you need Tigurius or Loth to realistically use these disciplines. You've got a not-insignificant chance of having to roll all of your Librarians on this shitty, shitty discipline to get the one power you wanted, leaving you with a big pile of garbage abilities you wish you'd traded for Invisibility, Terrify, Shrouding, Psychic Shriek, and Mental Fortitude which are all, y'know, very strong powers.
> 
> If you're not in the Battle Company, you're still not on the level with Eldar or Decurion Necrons or some of the other builds out there because other than 'you can't possible kill this much Objective Secured' Space Marines... kinda don't have all that much going for them, in truth - at least in 'I want to make a winner' terms, in my opinion it's the best Codex ever released for 'I have some Space Marine models and want a million fluffy, fun ways to run them that are all at least viable', but that's not the point in contention. They're good, absolutely, better than most of the Codexes in the game, and they have stuff like Grav Centurions and Honour Guard which are very solid units in their own right, but are they Eldar/Necrons/Daemons/Tau/arguably War Convocation tier as a whole army? Nah, I wouldn't say so. Your mileage may vary, but I've not found Space Marines to be this game-wrecking thing and adding some quirky psychic powers isn't going to help that.


This is really well said, I think. The more I watch Space Marine batreps and play against them, the more they seem like they are just second best at everything. There's nothing they just can't do, but in any area they will get beaten (and often pretty soundly) by someone who does it better.


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## Entarion (Oct 25, 2009)

I have my own DYI chapter and I was recently thinking about organization, companies strike forces and such. I have some idea in my mind and read some stuff here and there. Would this book help me with shaping up my chapter or should I be looking for something else ?

I am not exactly following Codex Astartes but always looking for inspiration.


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