# Why do I get the vibe that people are uptight about dragio?



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I have the GK codex so I know about him. But every time I'm reading something here I get the feeling people don't like what GW wrote for him like their making him to powerful and stuff.

Isn't it true that the warp messes with peoples heads? So he might be doing these things in a battle with his own mind? Instead of reality like people seem to be stating?

This why I play orks. The answer to everything is waaargh.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm perfectly fine with him as a model (as long as he's wearing his helmet) and as a unit. What pisses people off is the way his fluff, as well as a large amount of the current GK dex's fluff, is written.

I think that's what most people dislike about him.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> I'm perfectly fine with him as a model (as long as he's wearing his helmet) and as a unit. What pisses people off is the way his fluff, as well as a large amount of the current GK dex's fluff, is written.
> 
> I think that's what most people dislike about him.


I actually just found that thread in GD about Matt wards work.

I'm ok with how it's written I'd rather something sound too bad ass than not enough.


----------



## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Many are hung up about two things in particular, both to do with the fluff:
He not only soloed a Daemon Primarch, he humiliated the cusser.
He was dragged into the warp, but didn't die. Quite the opposite - despite all-comers he continues to slay everything in sight, maintaining a pointless quest of sorts.
Take these out and give him something more grounded and people wouldn't have cared so much.

It's my impression that GW intended to create an iconic character that would stand amongst their most favoured heroes in their pantheon. Before their 5E codex, the Grey Knights had very few noteworthy characters, especially one's that could stand proud next to say, Grimnar or Mephiston. With 5E's focus on producing several characters per codex, it was obvious they were gonna need a lot of new material for the GKs and that players would expect a strong line-up. To most though they overshot it horrendously with Draigo.

Personally, I'm more annoyed about his model. The weedy goatee and the constipated look don't exactly live up to the dignified image you'd expect of a Grand Master. With that silly gurn it's more like man-child, bed-wetter. No wonder why they provided him with a helmet...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_Oiad_ generally outlined the reasons why some people dislike Draigo. I admit I was initially very skeptical as well. But in reflection its clear that despite all of Draigo's apparent successes and victories, its all for naught. It doesn't matter how many daemons he slays, they will all be reborn. It doesn't matter how much carnage he wrecks throughout the realms of the gods, it will all be undone. Ultimately he poses not even the remotest threat to Chaos.

GFP came out with an interesting theory which adds a bit of depth to the Draigo debate:


Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> You see, Warlock, the entire point of Draigo's struggles is that he _can't_ prevail. Ever. He's there for eternity. He fights and fights and fights; he succeeds, he tears apart the very roots of the Warp and the Greater Daemons tremble. And, yet, it matters not at all because once the GDs stop trembling they return only stronger. And one day Draigo, pure and noble and strong and a hope for Humanity, will realise just what good he does. Then he will stop.
> A million years? A billion? Meaningless blinks in eternity. When will be the first time he doesn't act? That will be the hardest. What excuse might he use? It doesn't matter, it's inevitable that it will happen. Once he has not acted that first time, it will come easier and easier, the excuses more and more flimsy. At what point will he come to hate that which he fights for, that which sets him an impossible goal? Whenever it happens, it is inevitable.
> Draigo- one of Humanity's greatest warriors, one of Humanity's greatest heroes, one of the GKs shining lights. And, inevitably, the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos. The Chaos gods know this; and they laugh.
> 
> GFP


----------



## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Very agreeable. I have to admit, even as a long-time GK player who was drawn in partly by their immaculate record, it would be awesome to see Draigo break and become one of Chaos' most highly-regarded champions. Very 'Arthas'-esque. *evil-grin*

Unfortunately, M'Kar's quote from Draigo's page suggests that the warp will (only???) hold him for 10,000 years, not eternity. Still, it'll be interesting to know if the dark gods will break him in that time, or if he ever returns whether they'll be an Imperium to return to...


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Lol @ oiad WoW reference's are funny.

The thing that gets me off is that he's in the Warp (where nothing physical can survive without aid of the Chaos Powers), and that he's kicking waves of demons and pimp slapping the Gods.

Actually gave me a thought, what if the Chaos Gods WANT him there? Maybe thats why he's surviving the Warp...


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

oiad said:


> He not only soloed a Daemon Primarch, he humiliated the cusser.


It never said he soloed Mortarion. In fact, the text implies the opposite. Mortarion killed the previous GK chapter master who, I assume, also had other GKs with him.

Heck, it doesn't even say that Draigo even beat Mortarion. Simply he carved the former GK's Supreme Grand Master's name into his heart. For all we know Draigo may have used his psychic powers to engrave the name and then flee like a little girl. That or Draigo and a couple score of his brothers ganged up on the Primarch and then Draigo carved the name.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I am a huge Grey Knight fan and think the concept of Draigo is actually cool. I don't think he'll fall to Chaos. I think what will happen to him will be worse. If you read Dark Adeptus you know that one of the interesting things about Alaric is his ability to think outside the box, where as the inquisitor said most GK's would have died screaming littanies of hate. That's Draigo. In all of his escapades I don't think he's tried to escape his fate. He just started fighting and probably sees it as a convienience that he doesn't have to hunt these things down as he's surrounded by them. 

If Alaric was in this possition he would be trying to get back to the relevant war of stopping Chaos in the materium. Draigo since he's only concerned with fufilling his programming is content with slaughtering and destroying things he percieves as his threat. I see it like this. I do believe that after his fight with Mortarion proved to the Gods he might be a problem with their efforts in the materium. What's the best way to take him out of the fight? 

Put him in the one thing he desires to destroy. He will never stop. He won't fall. The daemons will kill him before he turns. I honestly believe this was the Gods plan all along. He's causing enough destruction to where he will never feel he's not still contributing to the overall Imperial and The Emperor's design. They'll let him burn down the garden, kill the concubines,and a blood thirster or two. What's it to them?They can replace those things in the blink of an eye. That or they can leave him in the materium where everytime he banishes or destroys a daemon the cost to their plans is greater. 

Him in the warp means they can control him. He'll never try to escape because he feels he doing the most good their. They might try to turn him but they know he won't. In the end he'll just be there for eternity and they can afford him to stay there. It's his own hell since he's oblivious to the fruitlessness of his efforts.


----------



## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> I am a huge Grey Knight fan and think the concept of Draigo is actually cool. I don't think he'll fall to Chaos. I think what will happen to him will be worse. If you read Dark Adeptus you know that one of the interesting things about Alaric is his ability to think outside the box, where as the inquisitor said most GK's would have died screaming littanies of hate. That's Draigo. In all of his escapades I don't think he's tried to escape his fate. He just started fighting and probably sees it as a convienience that he doesn't have to hunt these things down as he's surrounded by them.
> 
> If Alaric was in this possition he would be trying to get back to the relevant war of stopping Chaos in the materium. Draigo since he's only concerned with fufilling his programming is content with slaughtering and destroying things he percieves as his threat. I see it like this. I do believe that after his fight with Mortarion proved to the Gods he might be a problem with their efforts in the materium. What's the best way to take him out of the fight?
> 
> ...


So like Fulgrim, his failure is the devotion to the perfection of his duty, being caught in a very slaneesh like temptation of fullfilling his greatest desire which is to fight daemons. Dare I say D-Man is the first GK to fall into chaos? :laugh:


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Who's to say all the GKs aren't devotees of slaanesh, relentlessly hunting daemons?

Who's to say the entire Imperium of man aren't devotees of slaanesh, with all the KILL THE XENOS BURN THE WITCH stuff?

/philosophy


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Lastik said:


> So like Fulgrim, his failure is the devotion to the perfection of his duty, being caught in a very slaneesh like temptation of fullfilling his greatest desire which is to fight daemons. Dare I say D-Man is the first GK to fall into chaos? :laugh:


One cannot fall to chaos when they seek chaos.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Why can't you? Can't you fall to greed if you found the lost treasure of atlantis on a mission to raise money for an orphanage (and actually meaning it?)


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> Why can't you? Can't you fall to greed if you found the lost treasure of atlantis on a mission to raise money for an orphanage (and actually meaning it?)


I was trying to sound like plato.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I am a huge Grey Knight fan and think the concept of Draigo is actually cool. I don't think he'll fall to Chaos. I think what will happen to him will be worse. If you read Dark Adeptus you know that one of the interesting things about Alaric is his ability to think outside the box, where as the inquisitor said most GK's would have died screaming littanies of hate. That's Draigo. In all of his escapades I don't think he's tried to escape his fate. He just started fighting and probably sees it as a convienience that he doesn't have to hunt these things down as he's surrounded by them.
> 
> If Alaric was in this possition he would be trying to get back to the relevant war of stopping Chaos in the materium. Draigo since he's only concerned with fufilling his programming is content with slaughtering and destroying things he percieves as his threat. I see it like this. I do believe that after his fight with Mortarion proved to the Gods he might be a problem with their efforts in the materium. What's the best way to take him out of the fight?
> 
> ...


No longer shall I complain about Draigo's Fluff now that I know this...


----------



## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

It is delicious irony that Draigo is being isolated with his one man mission to destroy the forces of Chaos.

Draigo is a flawed character, the fundamental flaw in Draigo his his Duty to the Imperium of Man and the servitude to the Emperor himself.

Chaos sees this, they see that this very flaw as a weapon against the man himself.

His blood-lust attracts Khorne
His imperviousness to the riggors of disease attracts Nurgle
His desires to elliminate attacts Slaanesh
His use of his psychic abillities attracts Tzeentch

Draigo himself is the embodiment of Chaos. Chaos has captured Draigo and have created a Champion, Chaos knows they can't turn him to fight for him but can turn him to fight within and be trapped there.

The Greatest victory Chaos has achieved is that Draigo can do no other thing but battle in perpetuity. That is Chaos.

Chaos Uber Alles.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I sat back and looked at his story. This is a nightmare universe. So some guy out there rolling like a religious superman didn't sit right. If he was doing these things in the materium I would agree with the rest. Who knows how many of the Imperium's hero's they have locked in this kind of situation. Guys who won't fall. They might throw a few temptations at him every couple of centuries just to check.Guess who won't be messing with the next black crusade? Draigo. Guess who won't be around to stop the next Daemon Primarch from raising hell around imperial space? Draigo. You can keep this going. All the stuff in the warp he does the Gods can easily rectify. In real space? Him banishing their Daemon Princes may push their plans back centuries. 

I'm not saying Matt Ward did this intentionally or is even aware of this. He may think all the things Draigo is doing has the gods on their toes in fear. The warp is an immaterial universe. Destroying things you percieve as real is like pissin in an ocean and thinking your doing significant damage to the worlds water supply. The gods are sentient embodiments of emotion. Every thing in the warp is energy. As anyone knows energy can never be destroyed, just redistributed. In the warp that means that it goes back to it's source....the gods.

Everyone got pissed off with Ward and I can see why. In truth if you think about what the warp truly is then you know that the war with chaos can only be won in the material realm by cutting their influence. In their realm, everything is them and they are everything.


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Dude, that last line is profound. You sound like Plato.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

oiad said:


> it would be awesome to see Draigo break and become one of Chaos' most highly-regarded champions


I dunno...I think that would be rather cliched 
I think his current status is more unique


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You guys seem to be losing the point here. He's not going to say "oh man, this sucks.....you guys looking for any help?" The beauty of the situation for Chaos is that they don't need him to turn. EVER. They are giving him what he wants and for that they don't have to worry about him screwing with their plans in the materium.That's it.He's not going to turn into a daemon prince ever. Get that idea out of your head.That's why I used the Dark Adeptus example. If Alaric didn't turn in Hammer of Daemons I promise you Draigo is not going to turn. You are seeing this as "oh they've got him now, when are they gonna spring it on him?" He's not a factor that will effect them anymore. That's it. Game over. Move on to the next one.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You make it sound lie he alone cutting down daemons in the warp is sustaining their presence when it's not.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

All I'm saying is that the war against Chaos, if it was winnable, would definitely never be won in the warp. Why do you think the great crusade wasn't launched in the warp?The Emperor knew that the realm would be a pointless and suicidal effort. Training pyskers to control their powers in the material realm was the only option. What Draigo is going through is pointless. I'm saying he doesn't need to be turned. They've taken the Grand master of the GK and turned him into something with the same existence of the energizer bunny. To be honest I don't think they consider him a threat to any plans unless he can free himself.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

He's just boring. 

"He's the bestest", pretty much sums Draigo up.


And People get just as uptight when you criticize his (or any) fluff. Because GW was, in fact, established by Jesus Christ himself and is incapable of writing bad fluff.


----------



## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

hailene said:


> It never said he soloed Mortarion. In fact, the text implies the opposite. Mortarion killed the previous GK chapter master who, I assume, also had other GKs with him... _(Etc.)_



You probably only read the bio' on Draigo's page and missed the relevant section. Here, I'll make it easy for you:



901.M41 - The Battle of Kornovin @ Pg.15 said:


> _...Grand Master Kadlor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. *Alone and unaided,* Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart..._


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I used to think Draigo's fluff was a load of bullshit, but after thinking about it the only way he could be surviving in the Warp is with the protection of the Chaos Gods, ergo, they must want him there for some reason.


----------



## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Cyleune said:


> I used to think Draigo's fluff was a load of bullshit, but after thinking about it the only way he could be surviving in the Warp is with the protection of the Chaos Gods, ergo, they must want him there for some reason.


Old saying.

"Keep your friends closer, but keep your enemies closer"

Here is a delicious irony, Draigo may one day be allowed to escape the Warp by the Chaos Gods only to be condemned by the Inquisition as tainted by Chaos, ergo he may become excommunicated or executed.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Okay, I haven't actually read his fluff in the Grey Knights codex, so I don't know if this is adressed: I just don't get how he can cruise around the warp unaided. I think that it's in _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ where it still states that the only reason ships can travel through the warp is because they have their own bubble of reality sustained within their gellar field. I don't see Draigo with a gellar field...

Edit: Here it is, a quote from the Codex:


> The Realm of Chaos is anathema to matter of any kind and ships that navigate its depths do so by taking a skin or bubble of 'reality' with them when they enter.


So unless Draigo is suddenly composed of warp energy he should not be able to survive in the warp. And if he is composed of warp energy then he's really nothing but a daemon.


----------



## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> Okay, I haven't actually read his fluff in the Grey Knights codex, so I don't know if this is adressed: I just don't get how he can cruise around the warp unaided. I think that it's in _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ where it still states that the only reason ships can travel through the warp is because they have their own bubble of reality sustained within their gellar field. I don't see Draigo with a gellar field...
> 
> Edit: Here it is, a quote from the Codex:
> 
> ...


He is Draigo. But the Chaos Gods negate the affects of Chaos if they so desire, they can shield Draigo from this, if it is in their interest to keep him within the Warp.


----------



## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

Hmm Draigo fluff maybe?
in the realm of chaos he comes out victor....sounds like fanboy writing


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

5tonsledge said:


> Hmm Draigo fluff maybe?
> in the realm of chaos he comes out victor


Its not exactly as if he could actually achieve anything in there.

Derp.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Killing a greater daemon or 2 = awesome
Managing to survive long periods alone on a daemon world = believeable
surviving a near eternity in the warp = total bollocks

The only possible way of him surviving in the warp would be if the chaos gods protected him from its nature and didn't send many of their servants to go kill him. In the first hour of being in the warp he would have run out of storm bolter ammo... and after that he is a slow moving bloke with a sword in a world of flying daemons, many of which have ranged powers. In game give me a standard Tzeentch chariot (as seen in most daemon armies) and I would have a little better then 50-50 chance of killing Draigo, start introduce fluff aspects like him being out of ammo and my flying above him and he doesn't even stand a chance.... give me a tzeentch legion and he wouldn't last a few minutes, let alone thousands of years.

If they were going to give him fluff which basically says 'Daemons cannot possibly beat this guy' then give him some rules which represent this. Honestly as a daemon player I don't mind... I'm already screwed by GK, there is no screwed and screweder. Give him dark excommunication, a GK version of wings of sanguinious and something like night fighting /3 for daemons to see him and his fluff will start to look vaguely possible... vaguely.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> So unless Draigo is suddenly composed of warp energy he should not be able to survive in the warp. And if he is composed of warp energy then he's really nothing but a daemon.


Mortals can enter the warp though, there are several examples in _Codex: Chaos Daemons_. It doesn't exactly explain how, but we know they can.



Tim/Steve said:


> In the first hour of being in the warp he would have run out of storm bolter ammo... and after that he is a slow moving bloke with a sword in a world of flying daemons, many of which have ranged powers.


There is no physical matter within the warp, therefore (unless Draigo maintains some sense of reality similar to the effect of a gellar field) he isn't running around with a storm bolter/sword/armour. He would blend in with the energies of the warp and somehow (perhaps due solely to the curse) would maintain a sense of cohesion and purpose.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Mortals can enter the warp though, there are several examples in _Codex: Chaos Daemons_. It doesn't exactly explain how, but we know they can.


Aha, I must investigate further then. I only got a copy of the daemons codex very recently so have only skimmed a bit of the first few pages.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is no physical matter within the warp, therefore (unless Draigo maintains some sense of reality similar to the effect of a gellar field) he isn't running around with a storm bolter/sword/armour. He would blend in with the energies of the warp and somehow (perhaps due solely to the curse) would maintain a sense of cohesion and purpose.


SOOOOO...The only way for him to survive is if he hides in a corner sucking his thumb.


----------



## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Aha, I must investigate further then. I only got a copy of the daemons codex very recently so have only skimmed a bit of the first few pages.



I believe they had something similar to this in the last of the Ragnar Blackmane series, I believe it was called Wolf's Honor. When they jumped into the warp in the ship to stop the Thousand Sons ritual. (Don't have the book on me so I might be wrong on them being in the actual "warp" warp.)


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Killing a greater daemon or 2 = awesome
> Managing to survive long periods alone on a daemon world = believeable
> surviving a near eternity in the warp = total bollocks
> 
> ...


Tabletop rules for Draigo will never show him as being the badass he is in the Warp. It's like the Matrix - Neo is not all that amazing in the real world (At least in the first two films), but when he enters the Matrix, this happens:






That's Draigo and Daemons in the Warp. Just as Smith can clone himself, Daemons just keep coming back. He can boost his powers to infinite levels when he's fighting in an incorporeal realm, but when he's back in reality he's just a Grey Knight. Extremely skilled, and well-armed, but still just a Grey Knight.

Midnight


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

The warp is the immaterium. Emotions, power. Draigo is fighting a war with chaos and himself.

Anything goes in the warp.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Draigo is just a homeless guy in the warp shouting "For the Emperor!" to no one in particular. People need to forget about him or stop wondering how he wound up there.

I think it's pretty clear that the chaos powers or one of them let him in and are enabling him to remain there intact to act out a mockery/parody of his former life in the material realm.


----------



## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

I thought I wasn't the only one who knew that Draigo is actually a Alpha Legionnaire enacting some kind of super-duper extremely covert uber sneaky CIA x 1000 plot to destroy the Imperium and the Warp through sheer subterfuge.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)




----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Draigo is a huge threat to Chaos plans in the material realm. In the immaterium he's something that can be controlled. Anything is possible i nthe warp including the curse he has enabling him to maintain cohesion. I don't know why this is such a debated issue. Draigo on the outside in the material realm. He's a badass leader of the GK's who has ( I know it's bull but whatever) defeated a daemon prince/primarch. Think about what it takes to manifest any daemon of real power in the materium. It takes a lot. This guy stomping around messing up centuries of planning can get annoying. What do you do? Put him in a place where you control the rules and turn him into a rat running around in a maze. He doesn't want to get out. He thinks he giving the Gods hell. No more GK supreme Grand Master. No more threat. If I were the other 7 or so grand master I would elect a new supreme GM. This guy's goin nowwhere.


----------



## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

If the chaos gods control the warp, I don't understand why they don't just put him in a frictionless bubble and give him a good spin. Maybe poke him with a stick every once in a while. If they put visions of it in the grey knights heads, it would do more to damage morale than a campaign of terror a 1000yrs long.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's because they or one of them invited him in for reasons unknown or simply to call him names.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's because they or one of them invited him in for reasons unknown or simply to call him names.


Or we could go all Luxian theory on his ass and claim that Draigo is actually secretly a daemon prince of Malice, only pretending to be a Grey Knight long enough to figure out where the hidden stash of fake primarch heads are so that he can charge unreasonable prices for them in case one of the surviving primarchs wants to fake their death at some point in the future. Then he's going to use the money to hire someone to replace his black pariah/avatar of khaine hybrid brother who's currently sitting on the Golden Throne.:wacko::crazy:


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Or we could go all Luxian theory on his ass and claim that Draigo is actually secretly a daemon prince of Malice, only pretending to be a Grey Knight long enough to figure out where the hidden stash of fake primarch heads are so that he can charge unreasonable prices for them in case one of the surviving primarchs wants to fake their death at some point in the future. Then he's going to use the money to hire someone to replace his black pariah/avatar of khaine hybrid brother who's currently sitting on the Golden Throne.:wacko::crazy:


Or








​
_Modified by yours truly but this is the original creator of this heresy:_ http://kazuv.deviantart.com/

_May the Emperor hide this forum from her._


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

The Meddler said:


> If the chaos gods control the warp, I don't understand why they don't just put him in a frictionless bubble and give him a good spin. Maybe poke him with a stick every once in a while. If they put visions of it in the grey knights heads, it would do more to damage morale than a campaign of terror a 1000yrs long.


Or, you know, crush him at the subatomic level into something no one would recognize as matter with nothing but an apathetic yawn. Needless to say, I don't buy the whole "they're keeping him there to make sure Draigo stays out of their way" line. If that's the case then I give up on Warhammer 40k right now because Matt Ward just made the Chaos Gods the lamest Bond villains ever.

"What's that you guys? We should drag the Emperor's most powerful mortal champion into the warp then imprison him here while throwing countless numbers of our most powerful minions for him to effortlessly swat aside? And we should also leave him in a permanent ageless state giving him enough time to perhaps devise a way to escape our trap with his now even more immensely vast experience fighting our servants? And then once he returns to the materium he'll be so powerful and experienced from fighting our servants within the warp there is literally nothing we could ever do to stop him again? AWESOME! Let's do that!"

To everyone who likes this, I'm sorry but Draigo is just bad fluff. If a fan were writing this crap I'd be chastising him for writing in such an obvious author insert and then giving him god-like fighting ability. If I'm not going to let fans get away without at least a stern word for writing crap like that I'm certainly not going to let the people writing the actual canon get away without a stern word.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's because they or one of them invited him in for reasons unknown or simply to call him names.


The whole "mysterious plan" thing works on occasion, not so much when it's being used post hoc to explain away something that is brazenly stupid.


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> _Modified by yours truly but this is the original creator of this heresy:_ http://kazuv.deviantart.com/
> 
> _May the Emperor hide this forum from her._


That's a dude, with an apparent pregnancy fetish.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

What is hard to believe?

A daemon cursed him to forever remain in the warp. A daemon who serves one of the four chaos powers.

All four are immensely powerful and perhaps the most sane one of them all is Khorne. One or all of them let Draigo enter their domain, their realm-their home for reasons we do not know but we know this to be true for one does not simply walk into Mordor.

It's simply a way of making a mockery of the Emperor's last ditch efforts of fighting against chaos AKA the Grey Knights. 

What better way of showing the Emperor's last attempt at combating Chaos through the eyes of his own champion that you cannot destroy Chaos? And if you do strike down a daemon or two, they will come back moments later as though nothing happened.



Bionic-Weasel said:


> That's a dude, with an apparent pregnancy fetish.


I did not stay too long on the site to get all the details lol.


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What is hard to believe?


In a word? Everything.



Malus Darkblade said:


> A daemon cursed him to forever remain in the warp. A daemon who serves one of the four chaos powers.


Actually it was a daemon prince who was formerly a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers, so he was a servant of Chaos Undivided. I digress, pulling Draigo into the warp isn't actually an ability he should have. Draigo is the most powerful of the Emperor's champions, that should generally afford one certain protections, those protections naturally should include ensuring that a lowly daemon prince doesn't suck you into the warp. Despite that, this is generally something that has only happened in previous fluff due to the perils of the warp, something that Grey Knights don't have to worry about too much.



Malus Darkblade said:


> All four are immensely powerful and perhaps the most sane one of them all is Khorne. One or all of them let Draigo enter their domain, their realm-their home for reasons we do not know but we know this to be true for you one does not simply walk into Mordor.


The Chaos Gods are from beyond the materium, they're well beyond such petty terms as "sane". Anywho, again the Chaos gods don't have that much power over the materium so they shouldn't be able to just suck people in.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's simply a way of making a mockery of the Emperor's last ditch efforts of fighting against chaos AKA the Grey Knights.
> 
> What better way of showing that the Emperor's last attempt at combating Chaos than to show his champion through his own eyes that you cannot destroy Chaos? And if you do strike down a daemon or two, they will come back moments later as though nothing happened.


The Emperor is the last person who needs a lesson in how Chaos works, and it clearly wasn't an effort to give anyone any such demonstrations as much as it was M'kar wanting revenge on Draigo for Mary Sueing him to death. Again, an ability he should not have. 

Furthermore, this clearly isn't what GW has in mind for Draigo. And I quote: "_To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. *But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.*_"

MARY SUE HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> Actually it was a daemon prince who was formerly a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers, so he was a servant of Chaos Undivided.


Daemon princes have feelings you know? They are still daemons. 



Bionic-Weasel said:


> I digress, pulling Draigo into the warp isn't actually an ability he should have. Draigo is the most powerful of the Emperor's champions, that should generally afford one certain protections, those protections naturally should include ensuring that a lowly daemon prince doesn't suck you into the warp.


Draigo is powerful because of his faith in the Emperor and because of his personal combat/psyker skills. He isn't powerful simply because he is Draigo. 



Bionic-Weasel said:


> The Chaos gods don't have that much power over the materium so they shouldn't be able to just suck people in.


They do actually and if they directly don't, they simply hire an underling to do the job.



Bionic-Weasel said:


> The Emperor is the last person who needs a lesson in how Chaos works, and it clearly wasn't an effort to give anyone any such demonstrations as much as it was M'kar wanting revenge on Draigo for Mary Sueing him to death. Again, an ability he should not have.


The Emperor still hangs onto life. What for? Clearly he knows how powerful Chaos is? Well apparently he didn't get the memo and believes he still has a chance (I personally believe he does as well).

And M'kar isn't your average Daemon.



Bionic-Weasel said:


> Furthermore, this clearly isn't what GW has in mind for Draigo. And I quote: "_To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. *But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.*_"
> 
> MARY SUE HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


That's mostly a 'y so srs' type of message to your GK player. The codex is full of these sorts of 'feel good' messages and quotes.


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Daemon princes have feelings you know? They are still daemons.


About one feeling in most cases.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Draigo is powerful because of his faith in the Emperor and because of his personal combat/psyker skills. He isn't powerful simply because he is Draigo.


And why does he have all that? Simple, because he's Draigo and Draigo is a special little snowflake. Here's a few things to keep abreast of:

-- The Emperor can't hear you in the warp, faith in him does nothing for you in the middle of the Dark Gods own domain.

-- Your combat abilities mean squat in a realm where matter itself cannot possibly exist.

-- Your ability as a psyker means squat in a realm where your abilities and those of your enemies are made of the same stuff. A psyker's abilities come from the warp, I'm not convinced that Draigo would even be able to use his psychic abilities in the warp.



Malus Darkblade said:


> They do actually and if they directly don't, they simply hire an underling to do the job.


No, they really don't. That's why they require belief, sacrifice, and fanatical worship to allow any of their influence to come through. Hence why no one has even bothered trying to summon the Gods themselves into the materium, or at least why no one has succeeded.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Emperor still hangs onto life. What for? Clearly he knows how powerful Chaos is? Well apparently he didn't get the memo and believes he still has a chance (I personally believe he does as well).


The Emperor may have, or had, hope that humanity could one day evolve into a fully psychic race and survive that way, or he could be holding off long enough to guarantee his ascension. Or he could just be a corpse sitting on a throne that is absent mindedly directing the astronomicon. We don't know what the situation with him is, but regardless there is no final victory against Chaos. The Chaos Gods are eternal, trying to defeat them is like trying to defeat entropy.




Malus Darkblade said:


> And M'kar isn't your average Daemon.


In so far as the Emperor is concerned there may as well not be a difference them.



Malus Darkblade said:


> That's mostly a 'y so srs' type of message to your GK player. The codex is full of these sorts of 'feel good' messages and quotes.


Sorry, not buying that in the slightest.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> And why does he have all that? Simple, because he's Draigo and Draigo is a special little snowflake.


Or because he is a Grey Knight with an especially strong grasp on his combat skills and has a very strong affinity to the warp. 



Bionic-Weasel said:


> -- The Emperor can't hear you in the warp, faith in him does nothing for you in the middle of the Dark Gods own domain.


I don't think the Emperor empowers anyone (maybe in a few cases but I doubt it. He simply cannot afford to give anyone any of his attention for even a moment I think). 

But a person's faith in something can empower himself. Such is the case of Draigo and all of the Emperor's servants.



Bionic-Weasel said:


> -- Your combat abilities mean squat in a realm where matter itself cannot possibly exist.
> 
> -- Your ability as a psyker means squat in a realm where your abilities and those of your enemies are made of the same stuff. A psyker's abilities come from the warp, I'm not convinced that Draigo would even be able to use his psychic abilities in the warp.


Draigo is composed of warp energy or whatever-energy right now. It's probably just his soul taking on the form of his material self and so he mows down Daemons only for them to reincarnate. 

Again, don't forget one of the chaos powers most likely have something to do with his presence over there.



Bionic-Weasel said:


> No, they really don't. That's why they require belief, sacrifice, and fanatical worship to allow any of their influence to come through. Hence why no one has even bothered trying to summon the Gods themselves into the materium, or at least why no one has succeeded.


Those are simply means of strengthening one's belief to a particular chaos power IE. showing how devoted they are to receive their gifts because the chaos powers like the Emperor are too busy with their own thing to deal with mortal matters (ie. the great game). Obligatory imo <----



Bionic-Weasel said:


> The Emperor may have, or had, hope that humanity could one day evolve into a fully psychic race and survive that way, or he could be holding off long enough to guarantee his ascension. Or he could just be a corpse sitting on a throne that is absent mindedly directing the astronomicon. We don't know what the situation with him is, but regardless there is no final victory against Chaos. The Chaos Gods are eternal, trying to defeat them is like trying to defeat entropy.


It's clear the Emperor is aware of his current state. The Imperial tarot is possibly his only means of communicating with the world he left behind.

His ascension would require a great deal of more involvement on his part and the same goes for humanity's chances of becoming a race of pure psykers.

Simply operating the astronimican and sitting on a chair for 10k years, while admirable, still isn't enough to become a chaos power or for humanity to be on par with the Eldar.

There may or may not be a victory against Chaos. You think of Chaos in a very structured way which goes against everything that is Chaos. Insert Malice, Tzeentech messing everyone up, Emperor's reincarnation, etc. theories here.

Nor are the chaos powers without a doubt eternal. The warp is and so is the possibility of emotions turning sentient but the big four? Not necessarily. 



Bionic-Weasel said:


> In so far as the Emperor is concerned there may as well not be a difference them.


What does he have to do with M'kar?



Bionic-Weasel said:


> Sorry, not buying that in the slightest.


Would you be interested in subscribing to my E-zine though?


----------



## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Or because he is a Grey Knight with an especially strong grasp on his combat skills and has a very strong affinity to the warp.


Affinity to the point that he, as a being composed of matter, can survive in a realm that is anathema to matter? And he does this through sheer force of will and will someday return as GW has told us? As I said before, his combat skills mean precisely dick is a universe where physical objects for him to beat down don't actually exist. There is no order to the warp, there is no ground for him to walk on, there are no physical bodies for him to beat on. And, again, his affinity for the warp will not save his frail body made up of weak matter from disintegrating into nothing the very moment he stepped into the warp. His abilities as a psyker mean dick. His abilities as a Grey Knight mean dick. Draigo means dick in the warp.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think the Emperor empowers anyone (maybe in a few cases but I doubt it. He simply cannot afford to give anyone any of his attention for even a moment I think).
> 
> But a person's faith in something can empower himself. Such is the case of Draigo and all of the Emperor's servants.


It doesn't work that way, either their acts of faith come from some source or they don't have them. And if the acts of faith that come from the Grey Knights or the Sisters aren't coming from the Emperor they're coming from some warp entity. Bare in mind they're not orks, they don't get these abilities because they believe they do.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Draigo is composed of warp energy or whatever-energy right now. It's probably just his soul taking on the form of his material self and so he mows down Daemons only for them to reincarnate.


Got a source for that? My understanding was that Draigo is walking around inside the warp and he will some day emerge from the warp triumphant, that requires him to have a body. However, if he is still walking around as a soul in there that still makes him a special little snowflake sort of character.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Again, don't forget one of the chaos powers most likely have something to do with his presence over there.


Then he should be dead.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Those are simply means of strengthening one's belief to a particular chaos power IE. showing how devoted they are to receive their gifts because the chaos powers like the Emperor are too busy with their own thing to deal with mortal matters (ie. the great game)


No, crack open any codex on daemons or involving the warp. The warp cannot manifest in reality without being summoned there but a material source. These include psykers, sacrifice, worship, etc. etc. The only exceptions are those few areas where the barrier between the two worlds is weak, ie the Eye of Terror.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's clear the Emperor is aware of his current state. The Imperial tarot is possibly his only means of communicating with the world he left behind.


I doubt it, the Emperor is an immensely powerful psyker and there are hints in the background he's talked to others since ascending to the Golden Throne.



Malus Darkblade said:


> His ascension would require a great deal of more involvement on his part and the same goes for humanity's chances of becoming a race of pure psykers.
> 
> Simply operating the astronimican and sitting on a chair for 10k years, while admirable, still isn't enough to become a chaos power or for humanity to be on par with the Eldar.


...are you not familiar with the fact that psykers are becoming more prevalent or that for the past 10K years the Emperor is being worshiped by probably quadrillions of people? The former only requires evolution to take its natural course while the latter only requires the worship that the emperor has already been getting.



Malus Darkblade said:


> There may or may not be a victory against Chaos. You think of Chaos in a very structured way which goes against everything that is Chaos. Insert Malice, Tzeentech messing everyone up, Emperor's reincarnation, etc. theories here.


Where are you getting any of that from? I'm stating what we've been shown in the fluff here, Chaos is a force of nature. There is no final victory against them, there is no "may or may not" about it there's only no.



Malus Darkblade said:


> What does he have to do with M'kar?


I'm stating that if the Emperor has any of the powers that the Imperium attributes to him, again with hints that there may be a grain of truth there, M'kar isn't any more of a threat to his power than a lesser daemon or a cockroach.


----------

