# Why no Tyranid Planets?



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

So as I understand it. Tyranids land of a planet, kill and consume all the biomass on the planet, and then move on leaving behind a barren rock.

This seems inefficient. 

All biomass starts out as inorganic matter. I am not a biologist but if I remember high school science correctly bacteria and algae absorb elements and transform them into organic compounds fueled by the energy of the sun. My understanding of the Tyranids is that they can take whatever form they need to achieve their goal of growing. Forgive me if I am missing something but would it not be more logical to keep a presence on their conquered planets and continue to transform the inorganic matter even after all the existing biomass has been converted to Tyranid based life? Instead of leaving behind a string of barren rocks should the Tyranids not leave behind a string of "swarm worlds" for lack of a better term that could act as bases of operation for the hive fleet growth to resupply?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Look up Locust Swarms.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Tyranids are not mindless bugs, they are governed by an intelligence greater than humans can fathom. The Swarm is capable of self-reflection and guided evolution. It is not bound by its genetics because it can change its genetics at will.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

And it is not bound by how you think it should act, it is bound by what the writers want to do. They write the Nids like they are a locust swarm. Any other discussion is pointless as potheads around the campfire speculating about the meaning of life.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

If what you suggest is true, then the writers are morons who do not understand biology.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Because make believe alien locust swarms can't happen?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> If what you suggest is true, then the writers are morons who do not understand biology.


How so? Locusts are very real and creatures that are similar are very possible, symbiots are possible and real, taking and using inorganic materials are very possible and real, and creatures that generate electricity, shoot acid, etc are very real and possible...please tell me what isn't biologically possible?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

If you want to read about a "Swarm World," read _Black Tide_. Granted it is a world outside the governance of the Hive Mind. It shows how Tyranid organisms behave "naturally."


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

We arerejecting this concept out of hand because that's what the fluff says. logical or not, nids don't work that way. Personally, I've always run with the idea that the Tyanids are some kind of organic Von Numman machine that got away from and 'ate' it's creators, and now there acting out there biological programing, which is flow chart reading 'stuff to eat? if yes: OM NOM NOM NOM OM NOM. 

there NOT sentient, there purely programed to follow a end result and there intelligent only in the way a computer is. WE can make a perfect chess playing robot, but that robot can not then go and write a program to make a cooking robot. 

Now, that all being said, what does that mean? with a assumption like that can allow flaws in a 'progam' of a hive fleet that can make them act strangely. Somewhere there has to be a hive fleet going around in endless circles or caught between equal delicious planets and can't decided which to eat first, so it sits stuck in between the two. Course that is why Tyranids eat each other, the malfunctioning ones get consumed, rebuilt in the model of the winner so that one propagates it's programing.

So, under this model then you can expect all kinds of divergent behavior from a hive-fleet, so you personally can have any sort of beheviour you want from your fleet just saying 'it's codes buggy ' and it's evolved different form a normal hive fleet, and therefore does this as compare to 'eat a thing and move on'.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> If what you suggest is true, then the writers are morons who do not understand biology.


Welcome to 40K.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Because make believe alien locust swarms can't happen?


Because a smart locust would not stop until the entire planet has been eaten.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

And water is wet, your point?


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

scscofield meet Gabrial "everything I think of is vastly better than current fluff and you are all too blind to see it" Sagan.

Have fun.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> scscofield meet Gabrial "everything I think of is vastly better than current fluff and you are all too blind to see it" Sagan.
> 
> Have fun.



When have I ever implied that everyone is too blind to see it? I know some of the folks on this forum are sheeple, but I always assumed that at least some of y'all were capable of thinking for yourselves.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I just find it amusing that he stated that nids were too smart to be locust then proceeded to state that smart locust would eat a planet......hmmm this sounds like something 40k based.... oh yah nids...


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

scscofield said:


> I just find it amusing that he stated that nids were too smart to be locust then proceeded to state that smart locust would eat a planet......hmmm this sounds like something 40k based.... oh yah nids...


'nids consume all the biomass and leave behind a barren rock. A smart locust would leave nothing behind. It would consume every bit of the planet until their was nothing left.

This is a process that could take centuries of millenia to accomplish. In the mean time you have a planet where every living thing is a Tyranid. It would be like if Catachan and Pandora had a baby, and that baby wanted to eat you. That kind of environment would make a daemon world seem like Disneyland by comparison.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> Tyranids are not mindless bugs, they are governed by an intelligence greater than humans can fathom. The Swarm is capable of self-reflection and guided evolution. It is not bound by its genetics because it can change its genetics at will.


Self reflection? 

Have any evidence of the Hive-Mind as a singular consciousness, that self-reflects? 

The Hive-Mind is a gestalt consciousness, it's not one, self aware being. It doesn't contemplate, it reacts. The Tyranid race is one supra-predator. They don't think or plan as we would understand. It's incorrect to say the Hive-Mind is an intelligence greater than humans can fathom but rather one so different, so alien, the human mind can't come to term with it. 

I don't believe the Hive-mind is capable of creating these 'swarm worlds'. It's a predator of singular purpose; to consume. All the various Tyrannid organisms, all the tactics and strategies that's just behavioral adaptions the Hive-Mind has made to better consume prey. It's adaptation and reaction, not conscious planning and strategizing like a human mind would do. It has no comprehension of agriculture, of cultivating biomass rather than consuming more, it's a predator. 

Even if it could understand the concept what would be the point? How is having these swarm worlds more efficient? In the tyrannids current model they invade a plannet, recoup their lost biomass from the attempt and have a net gain when they consume the planet. They then move on and repeat. There's no waste, every scrap of biomass go towards consuming more. 

In your model that's not the case. Suddenly the Tyrannids have territory, they have to expend time, energy and resources on creating these planets, then on defending them. Suddenly they have to hold on to territory and have lost the initiative, their enemies have something concrete to attack. It's simply a waste of time and resources for the Tyranids to do this. 

Their current locust model is far more efficient, as long as there's biomass to consume. Which is the great thing about being intergalactic predators, once a world runs out on move to the next. Once a galaxy runs out you then move on again, there's an infinite universe out there to consume.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Rems said:


> Self reflection?
> 
> Have any evidence of the Hive-Mind as a singular consciousness, that self-reflects?
> 
> ...


I did not mean to imply that the Hive Mind has great philosophical pontifications. Merely that it is capable of observing its environment and adapting itself to further its goals of growth and consumption. To that end I would imagine that it would want to grow and consume to its maximum potential. If it is leaving behind barren rocks that means that it is leaving behind potential biomass because those rocks could easily become biomass if the right organisms were working to break the planets down. I was not thinking of the swarm worlds as territory the 'Nids are committed to holding. More as jobs that they are in the process of completing. Once every last chunk of the planet is consumed the swarm would move on.

The concept of a swarm world aside. Would it not be more fitting to the locust trope if the 'Nids left nothingness in their wake. Which would freak out the Imperium more: finding a once thriving planet reduced to barren rock of discovering that an entire planet is gone without a trace? Not destroyed, just gone, like it was never there to begin with.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> 'nids consume all the biomass and leave behind a barren rock. A smart locust would leave nothing behind. It would consume every bit of the planet until their was nothing left.
> 
> This is a process that could take centuries of millenia to accomplish. In the mean time you have a planet where every living thing is a Tyranid. It would be like if Catachan and Pandora had a baby, and that baby wanted to eat you. That kind of environment would make a daemon world seem like Disneyland by comparison.





If locust could eat rock I would agree with you, they would leave nothing behind.

I have yet to see anything implying that there is more behind nid thinking besides locust-like consumption.

The writers as I said before don't agree with you.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> stuff


Fun fact it actually takes far more energy/resources to have a agriculture/ag system than it does hunting/gathering or in this case hunting/devouring. Sooo the nids can like you said spend resources in holding and developing agriculture 'farms' or they could do what they do now and eat everything they can and spend more time on growing more horrors to throw at the walls of man and xeno alike.



scscofield said:


> stuff


But...I can't eat rocks...sorry joking aside there are some prokaryots that 'eat' sulfur in rock and excrete sulfuric acid, but that takes a lot of time.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think you're assuming that the Tyranids are out there to gather the greatest biomass for the least effort. Clearly this is not the case.

The Tyranids don't actively run from strong military forces. Or spread themselves as thinly as possible to eat up the most vulnerable worlds on the cheap (usually).

We've seen Hivefleets run straight into fortified worlds. This isn't the most efficient means gathering biomass. 

On one hand, yes, it is nice to exterminate the beings that may slow or hinder your growth, but the galaxy is a wide place. There's plenty of food to eat up to build up overwhelming force.

I think something else is is motivating them. A few _theories_ (which means I have no concrete proof, so don't ask for it ) I have.

1. These fleets are throwing themselves for the benefit of the Hivemind. The purpose isn't to build a long-term force. It's better to absorb all the biomass on a planet and move on. They need materials for warriors now, to gather information for the rest of the incoming Hivefleets.

2. They're some sort galatica Roomba. They're there to scour worlds for someone else to have a clean pallet to terraform and/or populate a planet to their liking. 

3. Maybe they were someone's Godzilla Threshold that got out of hand. Or a deadman's switch to ensure that if they were going down, so was everyone else.

Just a few ideas.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

hailene said:


> I think you're assuming that the Tyranids are out there to gather the greatest biomass for the least effort. Clearly this is not the case.
> 
> The Tyranids don't actively run from strong military forces. Or spread themselves as thinly as possible to eat up the most vulnerable worlds on the cheap (usually).
> 
> ...


I like the way you think. The idea that the 'Nids are the harbingers of some greater threat bent on xenoforming the entire galaxy is one that I had not considered before. If that were the case then wholescale destruction of planets would be counter to their biological imperative and only going after the easy to consume biomass would make sense. 

Your ideas are perfect possible answers to my initial query. k:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Moot question. Because they devour the biomass on planets. But I guess someone already have said that.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Settling on a planet would be a radical divergence from the basic tyranid imperative, which is: Consume and evolve. Those urges defines the tyranids, hence why they are always on the move to seek more biomass to devour, to continually be able to improve, refine and upgrade the swarm.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I've always liked the idea that the tyranids are on the run from something. Then, the reason they go straight through forgeworlds and warfleets without stopping to colonise anything is they're doing anything to keep momentum up in order to escape out of the other side of the galaxy.
We know they avoid Necron worlds - so something big and Necrony?

I like the thought 'What could be worse than tyranids?'


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Gret79 said:


> I've always liked the idea that the tyranids are on the run from something. Then, the reason they go straight through forgeworlds and warfleets without stopping to colonise anything is they're doing anything to keep momentum up in order to escape out of the other side of the galaxy.
> We know they avoid Necron worlds - so something big and Necrony?
> 
> I like the thought 'What could be worse than tyranids?'


Necron worlds are usually on dead worlds. And the necrons have no flesh, thusly they are of completely no interest to the swarm.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

That is true. They typically avoid dead worlds; nothing to gain. But another reason some Necron worlds are avoided is the Null Field Matrix. It has detrimental affects on Tyranid organisms and may even make planets invisible to the Hive Mind. 

I also like the prospect that something is behind the Tyranids besides a swath of dead galaxies. I don't think it is something worse chasing them but the universal cleansing makes sense. Something could have made the Tyranids to clear "enemy" worlds for a fresh start. Whether that force is still using the Tyranids or if they got loose is an intriguing thought. Let's ask the Orks and Old Ones.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Settling on a planet would be a radical divergence from the basic tyranid imperative, which is: Consume and evolve. Those urges defines the tyranids, hence why they are always on the move to seek more biomass to devour, to continually be able to improve, refine and upgrade the swarm.


So why don't they eat the planets?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> So why don't they eat the planets?


They crave biomass. Bare rocks is not likely worth the effort to break down, when consuming flesh is so much easier.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> They crave biomass. Bare rocks is not likely worth the effort to break down, when consuming flesh is so much easier.


Are Tyranids on a timetable? Is the Hive Mind in a rush? What effort are you talking about? The Swarm breeds a strain of autotrophic lithovores, the most basic form of life that can exist, and lets them go to work. 

If the Tyranids existed as a weapon that was meant to destroy enemy militaries as fast as possible, what you are saying might make sense. But as far as I can tell they are an organism that exists for its own self-propagation. By not eating the planets they are leaving behind octillions of metric tons of biomass. that is x,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons!


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Do remember you have to consider the worth of expending biomass to consume a world totally. Its likely magnitudes much more economical to just strip the surface and move on to the next world, then it should be teeming with life again for next visit some million years later.

Humans breeds like rats and the hive mind acknowledges the massive amount of human flesh in the galaxy and have been using the genestealer cults with great success to draw the swarms to worlds ripe with flesh for the harvesting.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> stuff!


Because eating a planet takes *A LOT* of time. It takes millenia just for rock 'eating' prokaryotes to make a cave.



Brother Lucian said:


> stuff


Exactly, it takes energy+water+other stuff just to digest easily digestible food, i.e. flesh, cellulose requires more and most multicellular life can't, those that can have symbiosis with single cells to break cellulose down into sugar, but these take time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> I think you're assuming that the Tyranids are out there to gather the greatest biomass for the least effort. Clearly this is not the case.
> 
> The Tyranids don't actively run from strong military forces. Or spread themselves as thinly as possible to eat up the most vulnerable worlds on the cheap (usually).
> 
> ...


It's also worth noting that we know the Tyranids were, on some level, attracted to our galaxy by the Astronomican. Whether this means they are actively attempting to reach it's source (Terra) for whatever reason, or whether they simply assumed that it's presence meant that mortals (biomass) existed in gargantuan numbers in our galaxy is unknown.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Because eating a planet takes *A LOT* of time. It takes millenia just for rock 'eating' prokaryotes to make a cave.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, it takes energy+water+other stuff just to digest easily digestible food, i.e. flesh, cellulose requires more and most multicellular life can't, those that can have symbiosis with single cells to break cellulose down into sugar, but these take time.


Is the Swarm in a rush? As far as I can tell the Tyranids have no objective other than consuming everything they can. The Hive Mind is effectively immortal (barring the utter annihilation of every Tyranid in existence.) There is no reason to assume that the Hive Mind thinks on a human timescale. So what if it takes a hundred million years to a planet completely, a hundred million years is nothing to a being that expects to exist until the end of time. 

As to the matter of the resources required for such an endeavor. The sun would provide the energy. The biomass would grow as the process carries on.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> stuff.


And in that 100,000,000 years countless biomass has been loss while a hive fleet was chewing on 1 planet and along with that the hive fleet has lost massive amounts of biomass and more than likely has starved to death or cannibalized itself. Like I said it takes resources to digest food, eating is NOT a free activity. 

And on the writing side. What is scarier a fleet of monsters that devour all life or a fleet of monsters that devours all life on a planet and then becomes harmless.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

You guys (Gabrial) are assuming that the hive mind leaves behind an atmosphere, i would assume the would generate organisms like nitrogen fixing bacteria to take out all of the nitrogen/oxygen/hydrogen from the atmosphere they absorb them again. Leaving behind a rock with no biomass left and no chemicals that they couldnt use.

Also the idea that they could leave it for the humans to recolinize is questionable, as there is a limited supply of nitrogen in the atmosphere to turn into organic molecules so if they stripped most of the biomass from a planet it would leave it with a deflected maximum population as there wouldnt be enough nitrogen to make the people.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

khrone forever said:


> You guys (Gabrial) are assuming that the hive mind leaves behind an atmosphere, i would assume the would generate organisms like nitrogen fixing bacteria to take out all of the nitrogen/oxygen/hydrogen from the atmosphere they absorb them again. Leaving behind a rock with no biomass left and no chemicals that they couldnt use.
> 
> Also the idea that they could leave it for the humans to recolinize is questionable, as there is a limited supply of nitrogen in the atmosphere to turn into organic molecules so if they stripped most of the biomass from a planet it would leave it with a deflected maximum population as there wouldnt be enough nitrogen to make the people.



I think you misunderstood what I said, after a -million- years, definitely not in any current set of time for humanity.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> If what you suggest is true, then the writers are morons who do not understand biology.


One: Neither do you. Take some undergrad courses in it and you'll understand. 

Two: This is a science fantasy universe in which one of the major components is space voodoo fueled by bad mojo. Questioning the science behind all of that is about as productive as ramming a baseball bat up your ass and then jumping into an active volcano.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I remember I read some place that once the Tyranids devoured stars. Then they started eating biomass instead as that was a more effective way to get fat and happy.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> stuff


....really...when... you sure you're not mixing ctan and nids?

EDIT: If so it must of been really old ed.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Play nice.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

locustgate said:


> And in that 100,000,000 years countless biomass has been loss while a hive fleet was chewing on 1 planet and along with that the hive fleet has lost massive amounts of biomass and more than likely has starved to death or cannibalized itself. Like I said it takes resources to digest food, eating is NOT a free activity.
> 
> And on the writing side. What is scarier a fleet of monsters that devour all life or a fleet of monsters that devours all life on a planet and then becomes harmless.


No one is suggesting that the hive fleet "sticks around" but instead of leaving an empty rock behind, why not leave a bacterial culture that can convert the planets remaining mass unto whatever bio-slurry the 'Nids find most dilectable so that when a hive fleet does swing back through it can resupply with ease. Or better yet, why not plant the seeds for a new hive fleet to grow?



khrone forever said:


> You guys (Gabrial) are assuming that the hive mind leaves behind an atmosphere, i would assume the would generate organisms like nitrogen fixing bacteria to take out all of the nitrogen/oxygen/hydrogen from the atmosphere they absorb them again. Leaving behind a rock with no biomass left and no chemicals that they couldnt use.


The 'Nids, might take the atmosphere with them, but I am assuming that they don't need to. I am assuming that when the fluff says "biomass" they are referring to living tissues and not to the compounds necessary for life. I am assuming that the Swarm leaves behind nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and carbon that are not incorporated into a living being. I am assuming that when a planet is stripped of all life there are still compounds and elements left behind that could be converted into biomass if the planet continued to support an ecosystem. I am also assuming that the planet stripped by the swarm is so devoid of life that nothing short of abiogenesis will allow the planets biosphere to regenerate. If the 'Nids do leave the planet atmosphereless then even abiogenesis seems impossible.



gen.ahab said:


> One: Neither do you. Take some undergrad courses in it and you'll understand.


By all means, enlighten me. What am I missing?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think it was in an old White Dwarf produced during the late 90's. I'm not sure and can be in error.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tawa said:


> Play nice.


I don't think locustygate did anything wrong now.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> stuff


How if the fleet isn't there then what reduces it to a slurry, last ed it said the final stage of consumption was to suck the air and water up. That would kill all of the surface dwelling cells, the rare few extremophiles would be left is killed by extreme heat/cold/radiation, about the only thing that could 'survive' is a water bear (if you don't know google). If they leave behind digestive cells then how would they survive they have no food and extreme conditions.

EDIT: Extremophiles can only survive in 1 area of extremes and are almost, I don't know any exceptions, always killed by the other end.



Beaviz81 said:


> stuff


k


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> No one is suggesting that the hive fleet "sticks around" but instead of leaving an empty rock behind, why not leave a bacterial culture that can convert the planets remaining mass unto whatever bio-slurry the 'Nids find most dilectable so that when a hive fleet does swing back through it can resupply with ease. Or better yet, why not plant the seeds for a new hive fleet to grow?


When a hive enters a biosphere it consumes all of the readily availoble carbon sources (flora and fauna), converting them into usable materials. Once this is done, the swarm moves to the next world and repeats the process. If it so chose, it could dedicate some of what was gathered during its time on the planet to create a splinter, which would then break off and grow using the same process. Unless you are suggesting this new swarm grows by eating rock or though some form of magical, non-nutrient dependent photosynthesis, there wouldn't be anything left for that splinter to grow off of.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> No one is suggesting that the hive fleet "sticks around" but instead of leaving an empty rock behind, why not leave a bacterial culture that can convert the planets remaining mass unto whatever bio-slurry the 'Nids find most dilectable so that when a hive fleet does swing back through it can resupply with ease. Or better yet, why not plant the seeds for a new hive fleet to grow?


It's an interesting idea, but I don't think Hive Fleets ever "swing back." There's an entire universe of exotic biomatter in front of them (and above them... below them... whatever, 2D "maps" of space are ridiculous), there's no reason for them to go back. Even if such a conversion were possible (and there's no way to know- the Hive Mind, as others have said, is reactionary in its adaptation. This would be, basically, an unprompted "experiment"), it would probably take such a long time to redevelop the planet into something the Hive Mind can detect as to be totally impractical. By the time it reaches a point where it's ready to be re-integrated into a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids might be a galaxy or two away. As for planting the "seeds" for "growing" a new Hive Fleet, that isn't really necessary as the Hive Fleets are already able to replenish their numbers. And we know there are waaaaay more Tyranids coming.

By the way, can someone point me toward where the "something is chasing the Tyranids" theory comes from? I feel like it was an off-hand bit of fluff, but I can't locate it.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

daxxglax said:


> Istuff


I think it was just a theory, unsupported.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I have heard theories (again in an ancient WD) that the Tyranids actually do that bacterie-thingy and runs around in the universe for a few million years waiting for civilizations to come to life, and was the progenitor of everything. But I have thought of it as idle speculation.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> By all means, enlighten me. What am I missing?


Wasn't a dig. I'm undergrad biochem, third year, and I still know nothing in the grand scheme. Kinda a statement about humans as a whole rather than me crapimg on you specifically.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> stuff


I think that is out of date and the more recent version was that the old ones did it.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> I think the more recent version was that the old ones did it.


The Old Ones created bacteria? I know the Oldies produced the Orks and implanted psychic powers amongst apes and did something to the Eldar as well during the War in Heaven. You are sure you are not confusing events?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> stuff


Maybe I am. The thing was the old ones modified/sped up/seeded evolution of many species and it was hinted that the ctan and old ones screwed around with humans. But yeah they were one of the 1st species and who created em I got no clue. Soo maybe, there were in the old eds ancient hive, 'scouts', that left behind one eye, catachan devil and Fenrisian Kraken.



GabrialSagan said:


> stuff


See


locustgate said:


> stuff


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Maybe I am. The thing was the old ones modified/sped up/seeded evolution of many species and it was hinted that the ctan and old ones screwed around with humans. But yeah they were one of the 1st species and who created em I got no clue. Soo maybe, there were in the old eds ancient hive, 'scouts', that left behind one eye, catachan devil and Fenrisian Kraken.


Old One Eye was a Carnifex from Hive Fleet Behemoth, but you were correct otherwise and I'm glad you didn't soup the Genestealers of Ymgarl under this.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> When a hive enters a biosphere it consumes all of the readily availoble carbon sources (flora and fauna), converting them into usable materials. Once this is done, the swarm moves to the next world and repeats the process. If it so chose, it could dedicate some of what was gathered during its time on the planet to create a splinter, which would then break off and grow using the same process. Unless you are suggesting this new swarm grows by eating rock or though some form of magical, non-nutrient dependent photosynthesis, there wouldn't be anything left for that splinter to grow off of.


Since you are a student of biochem theory, clarify for me how life on Earth converts non-living matter into living matter. This is a serious question. I am operating under the assumption that the lower forms of life take non-living matter and metabolize it into living tissues. If this is not the case then I am confused on how the lifeless rock the planet was four billion years ago became covered in life after the initial moment of abiogenesis.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The average fan here does not put much stock in genetics, so it would be an interesting discussion if I wanted to get an ulcer from either uneducated people or people that disregard genetics here.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> became covered in life after the initial moment of abiogenesis.


Quit simple dirt is nothing more than the ancient corpses and crap of long dead animals.

EDIT: With minerals, microorgs, air, and water mixed in for shits and giggles.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Nowadays according to The Universe we might all be Martians due to comet-impact.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Nowadays according to The Universe we might all be Martians due to comet-impact.


Eh...I'm not putting much stock in that till they give a bit of better evidence.

Side Note
From my Microbio class.
4.8 BYA: The planet formed/cooled/stuff
3.8 BYA: Oldest life, extinct
3.5 BYA: prokaryots fossil, oldest fossil
2.7 BYA: O2 producing prokaryots develop, shortly followed by a mass extinction.
2.2 BYA: Eukaryotas develop/ oldest fossil.
1.2 BYA: Oldest Multicellular Fossil.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> Since you are a student of biochem theory, clarify for me how life on Earth converts non-living matter into living matter. This is a serious question. I am operating under the assumption that the lower forms of life take non-living matter and metabolize it into living tissues. If this is not the case then I am confused on how the lifeless rock the planet was four billion years ago became covered in life after the initial moment of abiogenesis.


I'm hardly an expert on ancient life or the exact processes that led to its development, so there really isn't much I could tell you without sounding like a dipshit. 

That being said, many inorganic compounds are acquired from salts. We aquire most of this stuff from other organisms, which I'm guessing the nids do as well. Enzymes help en corporate these chemicals into usable froms.

Kinda a broad question really. Giving a full explanation of everything involved would require more time, work and knowledge than I have to give.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Stuff


Can you try? I promise I won't laugh.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The perspective is also that the ground-based Tyranid swarm is the primary function of the Hive and might be in control. What if the Hive Mind is primarily about the ships in space, where the efficiency of energy conversion is so much higher? The transient ground-based Nids are only there to transport the base materials back into orbit, where the gigantic long-lived organisms utilize it for energy on their long organically driven mission of existing.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Tyranids are not mindless bugs, they are governed by an intelligence greater than humans can fathom. The Swarm is capable of self-reflection and guided evolution.


The Nids are the BORG folks! Really, for all you non-Trekkies out there the Borg are a race of Cyborgs doing the same thing as the Nids. The one exception is that they consume all organic material and either convert it to Borg, or use it to build more Borg structures.

To cite history the Nids were first seen in Rogue Trader during the 70's; the main era of the Star Trek generation should I add. Rick Priestley popularized them and, after some successful make-overs, they became the terrifying death machines they are today. Seeing as how many modern Sci-Fi Fluff and Games seem to float around the "Origionals;" such as Star Wars, Trek, Farscape, and Dune; it was only a matter of time before Warhammer made it's own. It just seems to me that the Nids are another writers interpretation on the "Borg Factor;" if a bit greener/meaner than the Borg.

For my part I see the Tyranids as the Reapers from the Mass Effect series. They were created by a force of nature that no one in the known galaxy understands, they come to destroy every living things in the galaxy in order to start the "Cycle of Life," all over again, and they probably will move to the next galaxy once they are done.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> stuff


I wouldn't say they were created by nature as their origins are unknown, beyond another galaxy, they could be a uberwmd or naturally evolved, doubtful imo.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

emporershand89 said:


> The Nids are the BORG folks! Really, for all you non-Trekkies out there the Borg are a race of Cyborgs doing the same thing as the Nids. The one exception is that they consume all organic material and either convert it to Borg, or use it to build more Borg structures.
> 
> To cite history the Nids were first seen in Rogue Trader during the 70's; the main era of the Star Trek generation should I add. Rick Priestley popularized them and, after some successful make-overs, they became the terrifying death machines they are today. Seeing as how many modern Sci-Fi Fluff and Games seem to float around the "Origionals;" such as Star Wars, Trek, Farscape, and Dune; it was only a matter of time before Warhammer made it's own. It just seems to me that the Nids are another writers interpretation on the "Borg Factor;" if a bit greener/meaner than the Borg.


Superficially similar perhaps.

The Borg aim to 'achieve perfection' through the assimilation of various other sentient species. The Tyranid's are mere predators, with the sole goal to consume. Nor do the Borg consume biomass as the Tyranids do but rather cybernetically augment assimilated individuals. 

Also Rogue Trader came out in 87, not the 70's. The same year Star Trek Next generation came out. Tyranids being in Rogue Trader from the start would imply they were an independent creation, not something inspired by the Borg who only came out in the second season of Next generation. 

Tyranids owe more to the Alien franchise than Star Trek.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> stuff


Both bio-engeneered weapons that went awol, actually/possibly. Can see it...so the answer to how to solve the nid problem is Sigourney Weaver....wait isn't that usually the answer to most monster/alien problems.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Locust, could you give the quote-stuff shit a rest already? Either stop bothering to quote or go the full length of the courtesy of quoting. Its getting a tad annoying trying to guess what your quoting.


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

I would like to point out that the Tyranids on the planet that conquer it are also reabsorbed by the ship. The Nids in the codex are merely the hand of the hive mind used to feed itself. Other than Genestealers it would stand to reason that most Tyranids don't have the required biology to support themselves once left on a planet. Granted a hive ship could remain in orbit and continue to provide sentience, however once a planet is devoid of all biomass (this includes bacteria) it then holds no purpose for the Tyranids. With a lack of need for spawning grounds other than planets they are feeding on, and no need for defence as they have no intention of holding worlds they have eaten; the Tyranids simply have no use for dead planets.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Rems said:


> Superficially similar perhaps.
> 
> The Borg aim to 'achieve perfection' through the assimilation of various other sentient species. The Tyranid's are mere predators, with the sole goal to consume. Nor do the Borg consume biomass as the Tyranids do but rather cybernetically augment assimilated individuals.
> 
> ...


I concur with this. The Tyranid pre-date the Borg. Especially when you consider the Borg were not fully explained in the first encounter with the Enterprise. It was at least a couple years later before the Borg were really fleshed out. I would argue that it took the movie First Contact and the series Voyager to truly explain them. 

But I digress. Perhaps it was meant that the current incarnation of the Tyranids is borrowing from the Borg. But even there I disagree. I hold the Tyranids to be the biological equivalent of The Replicators from Stargate: SG-1. They both consume all of the appropriate mater to produce more of themselves, share a collective consciousness and are capable of rapid evolution to combat new foes. The Borg, technically speaking, cannot self-evolve when facing a new enemy. 

Anyway, I believe the subject of Tyranid evolution is what is missing from this thread. Tyranids evolve based on what they consume. The evolution allows them easier victories against the same foe on the next world. They've been doing this in other galaxies and must know only a handful of sentient species can occupy a single galaxy. Think of what the swarm that produced Death Leaper was fighting: Guardsmen. It produced a very effective terror weapon that knew how to psychologically weaken resistance. The supposed best of the Tyranids, the Swarmlord, was released upon the supposed best of the Space Marines, the Ultramarines. So even if a hive fleet could devote the time and resources to consume rock, why would it? What would the Hive Mind learn from an adaptive evolutionary standpoint?

We know certain Tyranid organisms have Omophagea, allowing them to learn from eating. So, as with the Arachnid Brain Bugs of Starship Troopers, they can learn much from eating brains. Devouring everything can never be a goal. It has no purpose on its own. The goal devouring achieves is knowledge and evolution; or if the Tyranid are a weapon, the destruction of potential enemies. In either case, destroying a barren rock is pointless.

And if that is unsatisfying:
Perhaps the Tyranids are incapable of recognizing inert, inorganic material as something of use. I'm sure the Rippers, at the very least, scour the top soil(where the most nutrient material can be found) clean of anything useful. Raw carbon may be impractical to them or unrecognizable for what it is. And carbon on its own is rather useless. You need certain enzymes, amino acids and complex hydro-carbon chains to produce something living. All of which are more easily and readily available in an organism.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Non-sequitor.

Originally the borg were meant to be a tyranid-like species. The episode Conspiracy s1 e25, was their introduction. But the producers put the kabash on the idea because they didn't want to have people in bug costumes. Remember that this was before CG was viable so computer generated bug monsters were out of the question. The producers came up with the borg as a way to meet the imaginations of the writers and fiscal realities halfway.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> Non-sequitor.
> 
> Originally the borg were meant to be a tyranid-like species. The episode Conspiracy s1 e25, was their introduction. But the producers put the kabash on the idea because they didn't want to have people in bug costumes. Remember that this was before CG was viable so computer generated bug monsters were out of the question. The producers came up with the borg as a way to meet the imaginations of the writers and fiscal realities halfway.


You mean s1e24. I doubt it originally there wasn't going to be bugs but a extremist military faction of star fleet, but Rodenberry didn't want to show star fleet's darkside so he changed it near the beginning.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Locust, could you give the quote-stuff shit a rest already? Either stop bothering to quote or go the full length of the courtesy of quoting. Its getting a tad annoying trying to guess what your quoting.


This seems to be cropping up a lot in several places.

Knock it off.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You actually give lip to another moderator Tawa? No wonder why people in this forum are batty, even the mods can't keep peace amongst themselves.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You actually give lip to another moderator Tawa? No wonder why people in this forum are batty, even the mods can't keep peace amongst themselves.


No, it's not aimed _at_ Darkreever mate 

I'm re-iterating his point that quoting people with just "stuff" isn't helpful and can be confusing in parts.

The red text is for the "stuff" posters. 




Besides, Reever outranks me and is a bigger boy. He'll just beat me up later when the other mods aren't looking...... :laugh:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Haha. Good. Would have been darkly hilarious, though very disturbing and not good for this forum if even the Mods were chirping on eachother.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Haha. Good. Would have been darkly hilarious, though very disturbing and not good for this forum if even the Mods were chirping on eachother.


We have a special "Bring a hammer to work day" for that :laugh:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

For the purposes of what a mod does or does not say to another is not really a matter that concerns you, either, Beaviz. You don't like it, you know where the door is. I don't tolerate fake niceties, which I find more disturbing than having maintain a false decorum for the sake of people not getting bent out of shape because they have a different opinion.

As for locustgate, no wonder people ignore him, they don't have a clue what he's on about. 

As for why there are no planets; why do the Nids need them? Can you provide that? Do they need as Resupply base? Do they need to turn into pastoral farmers? The hint is that these Nids are "predators", but also that they may be running from something else such is their drive. If they were looking for a new home, then they'd do so.

This galaxy may just be a resupply stop, a motorway service junction to pick up supplies or potential new research/DNA strains that might provide the hint as to how to defend.

Think zombie defence; for example. Do you come to the first grocery store you need, and then stop and fortify? Do you fuck, you loot it, then run the fuck on. Sometimes, some are defended by miniguns; which could prove useful to loot.

As to why the Nids do so, we have no knowledge. An alien intelligence far removed from our own leaves analogous events only; hence likening to locust swarms; and despite living alongside them for thousands of years, we have no knowledge yet as to why they do so. The nearest idea so far is self defence from other locusts, effectively creating a slinky effect.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Why the hell are you after me Vaz? I haven't done anything to you and I don't even think we have exchanged words before, nor do I intend to do it either with those words of yours.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm... not after you?


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

Isn't there a mod forum for mode to talk to mods... I think you guys might have killed the nid thread...


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So what else do you have to say on the matter of nids and planets Ninjurai? I made my thoughts clear earlier in the thread and haven't seen anything posted to alter that. Do you have a different view?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nids cultivating planets? 

The planets they want are already perfectly cultivated. That is, they have prey on them. They have food on them. All nids have to do is feed. 

Concepts like territory don't exist to them.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I agree with Serpion. I must add I like him. He is a guy you can politely disagree with.

Also you had the piece of fluff I mentioned, but that's the closest you come to Tyranids caring and cultivating planets.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Nids cultivating planets?
> 
> The planets they want are already perfectly cultivated. That is, they have prey on them. They have food on them. All nids have to do is feed.
> 
> Concepts like territory don't exist to them.


Not territory. Why don't the Tyranids eat the planet? Why leave anything behind?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So now we are on anew subject? Since the OT was why they don't claim territory. 

They leave rock behind because the writers like it that way probably.

If you want more then as others have said, no more biomass, why bother.


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

scscofield said:


> So what else do you have to say on the matter of nids and planets Ninjurai? I made my thoughts clear earlier in the thread and haven't seen anything posted to alter that. Do you have a different view?


I said my bit I just want to read what more people have to say.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

They most likely leave the planet behind for the same reason we leave a plate behind when we're finished eating, or a cup behind when we're finished drinking. The Tyranids don't seem to mid being nomadic, and it fits their lifestyle.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Einherjar667 said:


> They most likely leave the planet behind for the same reason we leave a plate behind when we're finished eating, or a cup behind when we're finished drinking. The Tyranids don't seem to mid being nomadic, and it fits their lifestyle.



The thing though is that the 'Nid can eat the plate and drink the glass. So why don't they?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Not territory. Why don't the Tyranids eat the planet? Why leave anything behind?


The time and energy it would take far outweigh the benefit of the extra mass. How do they process raw metal and rock? What do they do about the magma and molten core? What do they even use that material for when organic warriors and feeder organisms suit them just fine? We have no way of knowing whether they even have the ability to process inorganic matter in that amount.

As it is, they strip all biomass, they drain the atmosphere and drink the oceans and move on. It isn't worth doing anything more than that.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The time and energy it would take far outweigh the benefit of the extra mass. How do they process raw metal and rock? What do they do about the magma and molten core? What do they even use that material for when organic warriors and feeder organisms suit them just fine? We have no way of knowing whether they even have the ability to process inorganic matter in that amount.
> 
> As it is, they strip all biomass, they drain the atmosphere and drink the oceans and move on. It isn't worth doing anything more than that.



The energy comes from the sun. Time is meaningless to the hive mind.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

If you want to go that route then they will come back later to eat the rock after everything else is gone.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> The energy comes from the sun. Time is meaningless to the hive mind.


That's not the point. Time may be meaningless to the Hive Mind but the living organisms under its control simply cannot afford to sit idle while the inorganic parts of a planet are broken down to be harvested. They can hibernate or they can feed. And like I said, are they even capable of processing that kind of material? 

And what relevant energy comes from the sun?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> That's not the point. Time may be meaningless to the Hive Mind but the living organisms under its control simply cannot afford to sit idle while the inorganic parts of a planet are broken down to be harvested. They can hibernate or they can feed. And like I said, are they even capable of processing that kind of material?
> 
> And what relevant energy comes from the sun?


Plenty of energy comes from the sun...However the point is moot since nids are heterotrophs, maybe some minor nid may be a photosynthetic.

The new dex even mentions a hive fleet 'awakened before it's time' and the fleet was near starving and ravenous, of the people that awakened it none survived.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The Nids use stars, but not as a food-source. I think they navigate using the pull of the stars. Which is actually oddly scientific for the writers I must add.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> And what relevant energy comes from the sun?


Solar-powered Nids.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Solar-powered Nids.


Dear Emperor that would be funny as hell until it showed up to munch your face off.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

High_Seraph said:


> Dear Emperor that would be funny as hell until it showed up to munch your face off.


A horde of flesh-eating Venusaurs would indeed be equally amusing and terrifying to witness.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Tyrannus said:


> A horde of flesh-eating Venusaurs would indeed be equally amusing and terrifying to witness.


Huh...I was actually picturing em with solar panels on their backs....but now venusaur bulbs make them less funny/stupid.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

High_Seraph said:


> Dear Emperor that would be funny as hell until it showed up to munch your face off.


They'd not have much luck in the UK though..... :laugh:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

We'd all shit ourselves on the one sunny afternoon we get every august :laugh:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> We'd all shit ourselves on the one sunny afternoon we get every other year :laugh:


Fixed that for you :laugh:


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