# On those Two Lost Legions



## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

So I was reading Codex: Space Marines for the 10th time and I noticed I never fully grabbed the notion that there are two SM legions that were erased from existence, namely legion 2 and legion 11. Some of the fluff out there says that these two legions committed such a horrible crime that every record has been erased from the Imperium as punishment for their sins. However I cannot think of any crime greater than joining the Horus Heresy.

This got me thinking, what are the reasons these two legions even exist? Why the official fluffers created them in the first place? What is they did to deserve such a punishment? (did they rape the Emperor's concubines and ate their flesh afterwards?:laugh 

What do you think/know about these two legions and of course their Primearchs? What did they do? What is the origin of this mystery that has not been resolved yet?

This topic might have just popped-out sometime in the forums, so sorry if this is a re-run of the topic. :biggrin:

Cheers!


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

Theories I've heard:

1) Their Primarchs were killed before Empy found 'em. 
-Don't like it cause it doesn't explain what happened to the actual legion.

2) Their Primarchs refused Empy's authority when he did find 'em.
-Don't like it cause it doesn't explain what happened to the actual legion.

3) Their Primarchs were found by Empy, and issued their legions. Then they rebelled and were exterminated.
-Don't like it, because there's a bit of fluff somewhere where Dorn looks at their covered statues during the Heresy, and Malcador says something like "Don't even think about it, they're lost to us" which implies that they're not exterminated (if they were gone, what is there to think about?).

4) The Primarchs were found by Empy, issued their legions, went out on the Great Crusade.... and took off, to found their own Empires away from Empy, or have some alternate adventures. I.e., not so much treason, but desertion, potentially over some deep-seated question of ethics or morality or disagreement with his plan for Mankind. Thus, they exist, somewhere, but they are _persona non grata_ to the Imperium.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I have a theory their entire legion was lost in the warp....
But I think they just did that cause; A: they were board B: they ran out of ideas C: They wanted people to come up with reasons.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The official line is that they were there for players to use/abuse as they saw fit, a blank page for people to fill in.
The problem was everyone jumped on the bandwagon rather quickly and the concept became a cliche and an excuse for some terrible ideas (female Space Marines etc.)

In fluff terms I've always liked to think that they were removed from Imperial records for something the Emperor did. They were such a complete failure that it proved the Emperor was very far from perfect so he had them wiped out and all information about them destroyed.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

One of them has been filled with the Blood Ravens. All the blood raven fluff follows "don't know their primarch" "strangely large number of psykers in their ranks causing concern/questions over mutation/taint"


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Whizzwang said:


> One of them has been filled with the Blood Ravens. All the blood raven fluff follows "don't know their primarch" "strangely large number of psykers in their ranks causing concern/questions over mutation/taint"


What? No, its been hinted to that they may be descendants of the Thousand Sons. Not that they are from one of the two lost legions.

normtheunsavoury has it as for why we have these two missing legions, it was to allow players the chance to come up with their own legion but it got abused and became cliched so generally when you make your own chapter and have them be one of the missing legions, a slew of people come at you against that idea.


An interesting note, in the Heresy series it has been hinted to that some, or even many, of the primarchs actually know of the fate of the two primarchs and their legions. Whataver is supposed to have happened they were all sworn to never speak of it. (In Mechanicum, I believe, Dorn starts to bring it up when speaking with Malcador, only to be chastised and reminded that that topic is taboo even for him and the primarchs.)

Whatever happened, whatever was done that got those records expunged, there is no doubt that it is an unspeakable thing. Something the Emperor never wants brought up again, though not necessarily worse than what happened with Horus. (As the Heresy can be used as a reminder to some that only the Emperor is infallible, if anyone else gives even a little ground they can fall.)


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

You see, the thing is that the 2nd and the 11th legions were not 'lost' per say... but all information on them has been purged from Imperial records.

All twenty of the primarchs were found and re-united with their legions, forging across the stars in the Great Crusade. At some unknown point... _something _went wrong and the 2nd & 11th were removed from the memory of the Imperium. 

You are thinking of 'The Lightning Tower' Darkreever- Dorn notes that the pillars that would hold their statues had been vacant for quite some time, so whatever occured was a good bit before the Heresy. In 'A Thousand Sons'- Mortarion makes a thinly veiled threat to Magnus on Ullanor that he knew of a 'being like you once before' that had also made use of dark powers. According to Mortarion the Emperor destroyed him (this being) for such evil. The referance is vague but leads one to question if such was the fate of one of the two 'lost' Primarchs at the hands of his Father.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No he is thinking of mechanicus. Its a conversation between him and Malcador.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

Ah, I rightly forgot about that one. I was thinking the point at which Malcador finds Dorn standing in the Investiary where he is noting the statues (or lack there of) there.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Wasn't one legion written off because they deformed so much? I forgot which group they were from but it is possible that they were just a chapter


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Are you talking about the souldrinkers?


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

no there was another their bones were growing out of their arms and stuff like that


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I believe that might be the Black Dragons chapter, as they do have bones that extend beyond normal.

They, however, are not one of the two legions; just a 21st founding chapter.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

yup thank you that was them...wait...who did they descend from?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Believed to be sals I think.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

jeez they must of really went off the edge xD


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Theres a reason its called the cursed founding; because the fates of the chapters created during that founding were not the most positive.

I mean look at some of those chapters:

Flame Falcons - burst into flames that did not burn them, they were nearly destroyed by the inquisition for this even though it was not their doing.

Lamenters - tricked into fighting alongside the Astra Claws during the Badab War, the red thirst and black rage inherrent in Blood Angel successors was cured in them, but they suffer from extremely bad luck. (No joke that is their downside.)

Fire Hawks - not much to be said, they were stricken by some incurable disease and they are now the Legion of the Damned, doomed to one day become completely extinct.

Black Dragons - those bony protrusions, its not something they did to themselves, but it is rumoured that they encourage it (something that is forbidden in the Imperium.) They are under constant scrutiny because they possibly willingly do something wrong.

Cursed founding, a time of bad things happening to what may have been great chapters.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

so thats where the LotD came from I was wondering where they came from...although I wish they never had a back story...they were just bad ass


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm thinking they did something really bad, to be expunged from all Imperial Records. My thoughts are, they were discovered just like all of their other brothers and given their own legion. After that they did something and were banished. 

I do not think they were killed before they were scattered throughout the universe, if so there would be really no reason at all to talk about them, it could have been as if they never existed. 

Moreover, the fact that Dorn looks at the columns where their statues should have been implies that he knew there were two other brothers, and maybe knew them personally as well. Malcador also knows exactly why they were banished, which is only a confirmation that both walked among the 18 other Primarchs as well.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I read somewhere that a theory is that Sigmar and Belakor of Warhammer fantasy were the two lost Primarchs as the Warhammer fantasy world exists within the eye of terror. Both were said to have fallen from the sky and to have been men of greater stature and physical power. The reason the Emperor never found them, and they were lost, was he wouldn't travel in there. It also makes sense as the Chaos gods are the same in both game sets.

I still think they were left open to encourage people to make their own chapters but that's just a different idea I had read.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Uilleam said:


> I read somewhere that a theory is that Sigmar and Belakor of Warhammer fantasy were the two lost Primarchs as the Warhammer fantasy world exists within the eye of terror. Both were said to have fallen from the sky and to have been men of greater stature and physical power. The reason the Emperor never found them, and they were lost, was he wouldn't travel in there. It also makes sense as the Chaos gods are the same in both game sets.
> 
> I still think they were left open to encourage people to make their own chapters but that's just a different idea I had read.


Sigmar wasthe son of a mortal father and mother, he wasn't any larger or stronger than most warriors of his tribe, and Belakor became a Daemon Prince long before Sigmar was born.

GW has said Fantasy and 40k are in different universes, so I hold to the theory that the Warp is the dividing layer between realities allowing for the presence of Chaos in both 'worlds'. The Old Ones were known as masters of travelling the warp so they could easily have seeded the warhammer world with races originating in the 40k-verse, also the reason that Terra and the Warhammer Fantasy World are so similar in geographical appearance is explained this way (being alternate realities of the same world).


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

In Codex: Ultramarines it was stated (If I remember correctly) that "Of legions 2 and 11 nothing is recorded, but it seems likely that they also fought for Horus at least at the begining of the Heresy. 

And in the list of chapters it also states "All records destroyed following Horus Heresy".

So, were they traitors? Did they later turn to the path of light again? If they did, were they sent of some crusade for redemtion, and all that was known of them was erased so that they would be stripped of all their honor? 

Thats just what I know and think...


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Whatever happened, whatever was done that got those records expunged, there is no doubt that it is an unspeakable thing.


They obviously voted Jedward :wink:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Mechanicus seems to suggest they were lost prior to the heresy and that something terrible happened.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Mechanicus seems to suggest they were lost prior to the heresy and that something terrible happened.


In terms of HH novel fluff the create your own legion/chapter thing has gone out the window and it simply appears that these legions were lost by some means.

Now if we assume the entire legions were lost we could rule out the primarchs dying before they were found.

Also, given the abhorence of marine fighting marine being a main theme in the first couple of HH books i would bet that they did not turn to chaos or turn on each other. 

So what does that leave?

A simple warp storm *poof* they're gone?
Gene corruption like Thousand Sons but not cured?
Create your own reason for their disappearance :biggrin:


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

Doelago said:


> In Codex: Ultramarines it was stated (If I remember correctly) that "Of legions 2 and 11 nothing is recorded, but it seems likely that they also fought for Horus at least at the begining of the Heresy.
> 
> And in the list of chapters it also states "All records destroyed following Horus Heresy".
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly, but these facts seem to contradict the actual story in the Horus Heresy novels, where Dorn recognizes the two lost primarchs DURING the Horus Heresy. This could suggest that they were recovered by the Emperor and that they indeed were involved in some kind of act punishable by deletion from the Imperial Records.

One more thing, in Codex: Ultramarines, the Dark Angels are also mentioned among Legions 2 and 11 (at least in the same paragraph) and it also states: _"In all and discounting the role of the Dark Angels, there were therefore between 9 and 11 Traitor Legions accounting for more than half of the entire Space Marine Force"_. 

So what we have here is a hint that they indeed could have been traitors. However if they were, why were they erased? Why not the other nine genuine traitor Legions?

EDIT: One more thing, I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy Novels so I should ask if there is any mention of the Two Lost Legions as traitors (beside of course the episode with Dorn and Malcador).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt they were traitors. They way Dorn spoke of them it seemed like some terrible accident claimed them but it also seems that it could have been their own doing.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, I have not reed any of the HH novels, so I dont know what they have said there, and the only thing I know about them is what was stated in Codex: Ultramarines... Quite limited knowledge, huh?


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## BrotherAzkaellon (Apr 2, 2011)

Could the Legion of the Damned be one of these lost legions? 
Correct me if im wrong but are they there so people like us can do what we want with them and write our own fluff for them?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BrotherAzkaellon said:


> Could the Legion of the Damned be one of these lost legions?


The Legion of the Damned is widely considered to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter. So no, not really.


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## BrotherAzkaellon (Apr 2, 2011)

ahh okay thank you 
do you have an answer for my other question?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BrotherAzkaellon said:


> Correct me if im wrong but are they there so people like us can do what we want with them and write our own fluff for them?


That was how they were originally intended yeah.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

As with the fact that there is only 250 to 280 codex approved chapters, meaning that GW has given us the luxury of creating our own chapter which i have done "Sons of Achaylus".

I think i heard sometime back these two Legions 2 and 11 are purposely given scragged histories, they are Legions for us to create and give our own fluff.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

I'm still going with my current theory that one of these was Omegon.
Never seen any fluff to indicate that there was actually a double birth from any of the Vats they were grown in.
They say that the emperor has hidden this from everyone, so a cover story about them offending the empire would work well.
No idea about the second one though...

They are 100% gone before the heresy, I THINK that the chapter lists in the heresy art books show them as expunged before the heresy kicks off.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

presc1ence said:


> I'm still going with my current theory that one of these was Omegon.


No, that really doesn't work.



presc1ence said:


> Never seen any fluff to indicate that there was actually a double birth from any of the Vats they were grown in.


Both _A Thousand Sons_ and _The First Heretic_ actually.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

Rings a bell, I'll check that when I get home. 

I remember bits about these missing primarchs from either heretic or when horus goes there , but nothing about twins in a vat.

Can ya quote the bit to jog my memory?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I always thought that the 2 lost legions were around for players to not necessarily for players themselves to discuss their fates but allow players to make a chapter or traitor force that was descended from one of the 2 said legions because they did not like the others or something.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

GWLlosa said:


> Theories I've heard:
> 
> 1) Their Primarchs were killed before Empy found 'em.
> -Don't like it cause it doesn't explain what happened to the actual legion..


The Horus hersey has 'debunked' this one because there is a quote that specifically says that all 20 primarches were re-united with their legions and all 20 joined the crusade.



Whizzwang said:


> One of them has been filled with the Blood Ravens. All the blood raven fluff follows "don't know their primarch" "strangely large number of psykers in their ranks causing concern/questions over mutation/taint"


Definately not - as someone else has pointed out they are 'theorised' to be re-used 1000 sons gene seed. Interresting, but not a founding chapter. 



Uilleam said:


> I read somewhere that a theory is that Sigmar and Belakor of Warhammer fantasy were the two lost Primarchs as the Warhammer fantasy world exists within the eye of terror. Both were said to have fallen from the sky and to have been men of greater stature and physical power. The reason the Emperor never found them, and they were lost, was he wouldn't travel in there. It also makes sense as the Chaos gods are the same in both game sets.
> 
> I still think they were left open to encourage people to make their own chapters but that's just a different idea I had read.


At first, its very likely that sigmar was 'hinted at' as being one of the primarches, when you consider that the original realm of chaos books contained both fantasy and 40K chaos it was obvious back then that the lines were very blurred. However since then its become impossible for that to be the case due to sigmars backstory and the HH novels.

Again, the second part about allowing people to make their own - well thats been made impossible due to the HH novels back story.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Legion of the Damned is widely considered to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter. So no, not really.


Legion of the damned is a 'possiblity' its a very very slim possiblity because they are only 'theorized' to be the fire hawks - however they are linked to the cursed founding and no one at GW is implying that they are one of the founding legions.



presc1ence said:


> I'm still going with my current theory that one of these was Omegon.
> Never seen any fluff to indicate that there was actually a double birth from any of the Vats they were grown in.
> They say that the emperor has hidden this from everyone, so a cover story about them offending the empire would work well.
> No idea about the second one though...
> ...


Again - the quote from the HH states that all primarches were joined with their legions - its not possible for those two to be individual primarches of different legions and for that to make sense.


As for what happened to them - basically they were never really their for people to 'make their own' it was simply that back then a lot of the imperium was based on ancient rome (gothic = latin etc etc).
Rome had 2 legions that were decimated by the germanic tribes and the emperor at the time simply stripped those legions numbers from the role as a sign of his displeasure and embarassment at losing 2 entire legions. The 40K legions are simply aluding to that event.
However since then this entire 'mythos' has built up around them.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

There was a time when the 'Fantas world as a world isolated by the Warp' idea was sort of supported- one Fantasy campaign had Bolt pistols and other 40K stuff to be 'won' by characters. However, probably sensing how unwieldy and asking for fluff-trouble this was GW shut the door on this idea. I'm not sure exactly when it was that the two 'verses were seperated, but they have no link to each other; Chaos, the Dark gods, all of those are the same but seperate, the same but different.
The above, of course, means that it is impossible for any Fantasy character to be a Primarch. In the first _Time of Legends_ book that deals with Sigmar and the nascent Empire, it is obvious that he is born to parents in the Fantasy world. Phew!

GFP


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im suprise no one has quoted False Gods, Thousand Sons, or First Heretic. The Latter having whole conversations hinting that the 2nd and 11th Legion were ordered to be destroyed like the Thousand Sons were ordered to be dealt with and how the Word Bearers was almost dealt with. They did something that piss Big E off and he had (as far as we know of) SWs and WBs (in some degree) deal with them. What cause them to be executed is, and porbaly forever will be, a mystery.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

presc1ence said:


> Rings a bell, I'll check that when I get home.
> 
> I remember bits about these missing primarchs from either heretic or when horus goes there , but nothing about twins in a vat.
> 
> Can ya quote the bit to jog my memory?


_The First Heretic_, when referring to the Traitor Primarchs (+ the Lion) descending to their homeworlds in their pods, it makes reference to Alpharius Omegon as two entities within the one pod IIRC.

And in _A Thousand Sons_, the great golden gate leading into the Imperial Dungeon bears images of all the Primarchs. It describes a few, one of which is the twins.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

Ok, thansk for the quotes i can remeber a little better now. BUT if thats the case then there were 21 primarchs.

But no one ever mentions the 21st?? Even thought they seem to acknowledge that there were twins in one of the pods. Hmmmmmm.........
mind you the talk is always about twenty legions so not sure if it has actually been mentioned as twenty primarchs in any of the books.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

presc1ence said:


> Ok, thansk for the quotes i can remeber a little better now. BUT if thats the case then there were 21 primarchs.
> 
> But no one ever mentions the 21st?? Even thought they seem to acknowledge that there were twins in one of the pods. Hmmmmmm.........
> mind you the talk is always about twenty legions so not sure if it has actually been mentioned as twenty primarchs in any of the books.


No one ever mentions the 21st because there is no 21st. 
Alpharius and Omegon are one person and soul split into two, they count (technically) as one Primarch.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I've always liked to believe that the Lost Legions were for us to forge our own -- to make for our minis or just fluff-fiends like myself.

I've always imagined one of the Legions had a Primarch from a revolutionary world -- a world where Mankind is actually our definition of a true republic or democracy -- strong ideas against monarchs or tyrants. Maybe this Primarch was once a leader of this nation and of coarse left office. When the Emperor arrived, they'd obviously have clashing views on government. He'd probably still take his Legion so long as his world was left alone. Chances are it was probably one of the only ones with a "nominal" Imperial Governor at the time. 

I'd also like to believe that at some point the Imperial Governor decided to crack down, maybe there were riots over an election, corruption that led back to him, or strongarming by the Imperial Army. The revolution might have even been put down by the Imperial Army -- thus bringing the Primarch and his semi-like minded sons with him. They'd probably have freed their world. Then the Emperor wouldn't stand for it, wouldn't stand for such counter-Imperial beliefs. He'd send in Russ, and the world would be massacred and the Primarch killed. 

Or maybe he just got exiled, then got lost in the warp. But the Emperor 'exiling' anyone and letting them live, especially an entire Legion - is very unlikely.

Hmmmm ... maybe I should write some fluff on this ...


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

The two other legions were under the command of the primarchs Sally and Heather. Being girls instead of boys, they took the great crusade a little slower than the other primarchs, which the Emperor didn't have issues with. However, along the way Sally and Heather fell in love with some good men and got married and had kids. Now that they were mothers, they lost interest in the great crusade because it would take time away from the family. Frustrated with this, the Emperor by command disbanded the female space marine legions and created a bullshit excuse on why they are not in the records. However, there are still family photos of Sally and Heather with the other primarchs still locked away in the great libraries of Terra.

There, now no more speculating. We have like about eight threads about this topic.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

presc1ence said:


> Ok, thansk for the quotes i can remeber a little better now. BUT if thats the case then there were 21 primarchs.
> 
> But no one ever mentions the 21st?? Even thought they seem to acknowledge that there were twins in one of the pods. Hmmmmmm.........
> mind you the talk is always about twenty legions so not sure if it has actually been mentioned as twenty primarchs in any of the books.


As _Norm_ said no it doesnt, it means there are still twenty Primarchs. _Legion_ clarifys quite clearly that both Alpharius and Omegon are one Primarch, that together they make up the Primarch. They are not two seperate Primarchs, but rather one soul in two bodies.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

It is relevant to this discussion, but isn't it hinted at in one of the HH books(first heretic i think) that the remaining marines from the two expunged legions where folded into the ultramarines, thus explaining that legions large size.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> It is relevant to this discussion, but isn't it hinted at in one of the HH books(first heretic i think) that the remaining marines from the two expunged legions where folded into the ultramarines, thus explaining that legions large size.


Apparently the ones who mentioned it were joking according to ADB. Would have been a very interesting addition I think to the lore if it were true.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I took it as a hint cause they sounded serious in the book of their hinting, not jokingly at all. When and where did ADB mention this was a outright BS page of joking. Even if it was a joke I bet there will be more Easter Eggs like that in futur novels, then one day it will become no joking matter but face value fluff. Im sure they laugh when the suggestion of Alpharious being Twins was a joke.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I took it as a hint cause they sounded serious in the book of their hinting, not jokingly at all. When and where did ADB mention this was a outright BS page of joking. Even if it was a joke I bet there will be more Easter Eggs like that in futur novels, then one day it will become no joking matter but face value fluff. Im sure they laugh when the suggestion of Alpharious being Twins was a joke.


Hes said a few times over on our BL forums here. Although _"joking"_ probably isn't the right terminology to use. Citing rumours is more accurate. The word of two Word Bearers Astartes (especially when presented as rumour) should not be taken as fact. 

Is it possible that the Ultramarines absorbed the remnants of the II and XI Legions? Well its possible. But currently it is nothing more than a rumour with no evidence to back it up.

The established lore remains that the Ultramarines were by far the largest Legion because of Guilliman's administrative abilities and how effective Ultramar had become at producing recruits.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Hes said a few times over on our BL forums here. Although _"joking"_ probably isn't the right terminology to use. Citing rumours is more accurate. The word of two Word Bearers Astartes (especially when presented as rumour) should not be taken as fact.


Was the integrity of a Word Bearer's tongue in question pre-HH? 

And I wouldn't think Word Bearers talking amongst themselves would be lying or deceitful to one another.

Honestly I really 'think the situation in which they stated the _rumor _was far too serious for them to be merely joking around despite ADB's intentions. 

To me it was just a case of GW/BL stamping their foot down on the subject.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Was the integrity of a Word Bearer's tongue in question pre-HH?


Thats not what I meant. Im not questioning the Word Bearer's ability to be truthful, Im questioning their knowledge in regards to the II and XI Legion remnants.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And I wouldn't think Word Bearers talking amongst themselves would be lying or deceitful to one another.


Again, thats not what I meant. Im not saying the Word Bearers were outright lying, im merely saying that they were citing rumours without established evidence and nothing more. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> And I really don't think the situation in which they stated the _rumor _was anything but serious.


Im not saying it wasn't serious. All that im saying is that they were citing a rumour without evidence. And thus their word should not be taken as fact.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

But they were present when the Primarchs and their legions were excommunicated (or I think they were) and then suddenly the UM's legion swells up. I'm guessing they put two and two together lol


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

That bit of fluff is obviously a 'joke'/ rumour.

Its like pointing at a fat person and saying 'who ate all the pies' - but in this case its - 'which legion ate the other two'.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> That bit of fluff is obviously a 'joke'/ rumour.
> 
> Its like pointing at a fat person and saying 'who ate all the pies' - but in this case its - 'which legion ate the other two'.


Only it wasn't so obvious and ADB had to confirm what his intentions were. : (


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Only it wasn't so obvious and ADB had to confirm what his intentions were. : (


Not being funny - it was bleedin obvious to me...

Perhaps its a language/ cultural thing - certain styles and content is very obivious in one language but not in another.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Not being funny - it was bleedin obvious to me...
> 
> Perhaps its a language/ cultural thing - certain styles and content is very obivious in one language but not in another.


I have to admit mate, your fluency in English is admirable. : )


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I have to admit mate, your fluency in English is admirable. : )


Im trying to work out on how many levels that comment is ironic and sarcastic. 

But to re-itterate - my comment was not aimed at demeaning anyone else or saying that they can't read/speak English.

What I was trying to say was that no matter how much an author tries to eliminate 'real world' references from his or her book, sometimes patterns of speech will be used in a novel that only transmit their meaning to another native speaker.

Im struggling to think of a really good example right now, but I will point people in the direction of Piers Anthony. Probably a slightly 'younger' readers audience (mid to late teens), but his novels are filled with puns and social references. Being an American writer and ignoring little things like 'colour' and 'color' I do sometimes struggle to get all of the 'jokes'. I can see them, I know something should be funny, but I just dont get it. Now English is my native language, but its a cultural thing that is stopping me getting the joke.

Ive gone a little long winded here - but I hope people understand what I am meaning.


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## Chaplain Garrus (May 15, 2011)

I actually wondered whether the primarchs of those missing legions were even found at all? When the primarchs were scattered maybe they were just never found and the Emperor may have just deemed them failure legions?

Another thing I thought about is that maybe in the process of reuniting the primarchs, those two may have fell in battle or the encounter may have turned grisly, severing any chance for those primarchs to ever form a chapter.

Yep, Im ready to get steamrolled with how this is disproven


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Legion of the damned is a 'possiblity' its a very very slim possiblity because they are only 'theorized' to be the fire hawks - however they are linked to the cursed founding and no one at GW is implying that they are one of the founding legions.


I thought it was pretty much confirmed with the legion of the damned fellows bodies in fire hawks issue kit, and caskets?

I'm pretty certain they used to be known as being the fire hawks, but then in more recent times they've become a little more vague and 'they could be the firehawks'.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Chaplain: Current fluff is clear that all of the Primarchs were found, reunited with their Legion and fought in the Great Crusade. Whatever happened to them, it happened in service to their father, the Emperor. The HH books suggest that the SWs had a large role in their fate, and other small snippets suggest that the rest of the Primarchs know what went on but are sworn never to mention it again. The only Primarch who might not know, I think, is AlphariusOmegon, who might have been found too late to have been a witness. That, however, is only a guess on my part; depending on how early in the GC the 'event' happened, there might be a group within in the Primarchs who have this knowledge where their later-found brothers are ignorant of it.
An interesting, if difficult, way to possibly shed light on this could be to trawl the fluff for ideas as to just which Primarchs seem to know what happened. This would give an upper and lower range of time for the two missing Legions to be destroyed/whatever happened. One thing making this less daunting is that whatever happened, it seemed to happen to them at the same time; in _Mechanicum_, Dorn's thoughts suggest this is the case, but I wouldn't bet my minis on that being a certainty!

GFP


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

DonFer said:


> Some of the fluff out there says that these two legions committed such a horrible crime that every record has been erased from the Imperium as punishment for their sins. However I cannot think of any crime greater than joining the Horus Heresy.
> 
> Cheers!


I think its called a Heresy because the Emperor is worshipped as a God since his coma event and the Inquisition can't erase the traitors from history because they still exist, most of the evil primarchs are still at war with the Imperium so they cant be erased from history, and also the loyalist primarchs are still reverred by the Space Marine chapters. 

This tells you two things;
one that the missing Primarchs aren't heretics because before the Emperors semi death he forbid his own worship, so they did something else wrong.

secondly the Inquisition were allowed to erase them from history because they no longer exist.


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## Chaplain Garrus (May 15, 2011)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Chaplain: Current fluff is clear that all of the Primarchs were found, reunited with their Legion and fought in the Great Crusade. Whatever happened to them, it happened in service to their father, the Emperor. The HH books suggest that the SWs had a large role in their fate, and other small snippets suggest that the rest of the Primarchs know what went on but are sworn never to mention it again. The only Primarch who might not know, I think, is AlphariusOmegon, who might have been found too late to have been a witness. That, however, is only a guess on my part; depending on how early in the GC the 'event' happened, there might be a group within in the Primarchs who have this knowledge where their later-found brothers are ignorant of it.
> An interesting, if difficult, way to possibly shed light on this could be to trawl the fluff for ideas as to just which Primarchs seem to know what happened. This would give an upper and lower range of time for the two missing Legions to be destroyed/whatever happened. One thing making this less daunting is that whatever happened, it seemed to happen to them at the same time; in _Mechanicum_, Dorn's thoughts suggest this is the case, but I wouldn't bet my minis on that being a certainty!
> 
> GFP


Fair enough 

Yeah my insight to this actual event of the scattering of the primarchs is pretty much limited to what actually happened in the youth/discovery of a few primarchs.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

In The First Heretic it mentions one of the "lost" primarchs. I'm not sure because i read it awhile ago but i think Lorgar was talking with Magnus and Lorgar began to speak of the lost primarch and Magnus interupted and said something like "enough. We all swore an oath to never speak of them" something along those lines so it is clear that they were all Aware of the lost primarchs and that they were found.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

The original intent of the II and XI legion was to provide players the ability to have some alternate descent for their Space Marine armies. There was always a backlash (at least with anyone I ever knew) against people that made up fluff that their chapter was the II or XI legions, especially considering that there are so many other foundings that could be used for a chapter without making yourself or your chapter seem pretentious (similar to the kind of backlash that poorly written Mary Sue/Gary Stu fanfic pieces receive.)

That being said, it would appear that the two lost legions would have violated some tenet of the Emperor that no one else violated afterward. Lorgar and Magnus would not have been conducting their business had these legions been wiped out for the exact same things Lorgar and Magnus were doing.

Maybe one of the legions was lost in its entirety in an attempt to take a system or planet belonging to a race that wasn't understood at the time, or maybe still isn't understood. Maybe said race used some sort of doomsday device to destroy its sun while a majority of the legion was in-system. Maybe the tragedy was so horrible that everyone agreed that it would be bad for the burgeoning Imperium to ever have news regarding what happened. The first steps along the road of information control that the current Imperium is so strict about.

All I know is that it will never be revealed in fluff as to the who, how, or why, but I think it is fun to guess on occasion.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> The original intent of the II and XI legion was to provide players the ability to have some alternate descent for their Space Marine armies. There was always a backlash (at least with anyone I ever knew) against people that made up fluff that their chapter was the II or XI legions, especially considering that there are so many other foundings that could be used for a chapter without making yourself or your chapter seem pretentious (similar to the kind of backlash that poorly written Mary Sue/Gary Stu fanfic pieces receive.)


I wish I knew where people got this from...

That is a fanboy rumour thats has been passed on and on and on until people repeat it as fact. GW has never said this.

Its a round about referance to the two roman legions that were destroyed and their legion numbers were striken from the record for their abject failure.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

From First Heretic, Prospero Burns, and Thousand Sons it seem Magnus, Mortarion, Guilliman, Russ, and Logar knew of the 2 Legions fate. The last 3 seems hinted at having something to do with it.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I wish I knew where people got this from...
> 
> That is a fanboy rumour thats has been passed on and on and on until people repeat it as fact. GW has never said this.
> 
> Its a round about referance to the two roman legions that were destroyed and their legion numbers were striken from the record for their abject failure.


GW has in fact said it on several occasions, back in the early days. It does tie in with the Roman Legions but regardless, that was the purpose. 
Is it really such an outlandish idea that just maybe the two missing Legions could fulfil both roles?
Maybe with the conversation going a little like....

"You know, we could use this Roman thing, you know the two Legions that were deleted from the records"

"Yeah, that sounds cool, it would be a good starting point for players to write their own Chapter's background stuff with, I think we should go with that!"

See, they don't need to be mutually exclusive.

As for what the Legions did or what happened that caused them to be deleted could have been anything really. Lorgar nearly suffered the same fate, I think it was Russ or Magnus that swayed the Emperor from doing it. The Legions that followed Horus would have suffered the same fate had it not ended with the Emperor on life support and the Imperium in pieces. 
If anything, I would say it was something far less serious than the Heresy or even turning against the Emperor. The loyal Primarchs seemed to believe it was almost impossible for any of the Primarchs to turn against the Emperor, if it had happened before then it would have been easier for the Primarchs to accept that it could happen again.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

space cowboy said:


> here was always a backlash (at least with anyone I ever knew) against people that made up fluff that their chapter was the II or XI legions, especially considering that there are so many other foundings that could be used for a chapter


Good point. Perhaps now that we have people coming up with chapters of their own rather than legions and have been for so long, GW will realize the gaps they left no longer need to be there and will finally unveil who the missing Primarchs were and what they did wrong. 



space cowboy said:


> That being said, it would appear that the two lost legions would have violated some tenet of the Emperor that no one else violated afterward. Lorgar and Magnus would not have been conducting their business had these legions been wiped out for the exact same things Lorgar and Magnus were doing.


Or perhaps the Emperor was so lenient with Magnus/Lorgar for so long was because he did not want to repeat doing something that probably left him full of regret and sorrow. So perhaps the missing Primarchs did indeed do something similar to what Magnus and Lorgar did.



space cowboy said:


> Maybe one of the legions was lost in its entirety in an attempt to take a system or planet belonging to a race that wasn't understood at the time, or maybe still isn't understood. Maybe said race used some sort of doomsday device to destroy its sun while a majority of the legion was in-system. Maybe the tragedy was so horrible that everyone agreed that it would be bad for the burgeoning Imperium to ever have news regarding what happened. The first steps along the road of information control that the current Imperium is so strict about.


Yup, I've always thought that assuming they had been wiped out, the news would be bad for the morale of an Imperium just starting out and who have been led to believe that their genetically enhanced saviors could not lose or perish.

Another theory of mine is that one of them did something similar to what Huron Blackheart did or they developed a good relationship with some Xenos 
races which went against the foundations of the Imperium. 

I just hope that if GW ever does unveil them, they make the reasons behind their excommunication interesting and non-chaos related.


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## DoomDot (May 19, 2011)

Hi there, just read through the thread now..
Alot of good comments on the topic!

The roman legions thing sound plausible, but if you consider all the hubbub HH has created regarding the two legions, GW cannot dismiss them as an "alternative for creating your own legion".
I for one, and many of my 40K pals, are really hungry for info on them, and it would really ruin some of the history behind 40K if GW said "nono, they are nothing really. Just something that sounds cool". opcorn:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The only reason that the Lost Legions are getting _any_ mention in the HH books is because of the hubbub that their combined mystery has caused. They were Roman Legion/fan opportunity long before anything else.
Another Primarch who would know all about the Lost, is Horus. I read a cool fan theory (where I can't remember, it might even have been on here) that two of the Mournival may know something of it, two of the oldest members when we meet them in _Horus Rising_; I think it suggested that all of the Astartes who took part would have been mind-wiped, but for some reason the Mournival weren't. I've no idea if that would hold any water or not, with the extra info we have on those Mournival members.

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

That's kinda silly. 

What right would the Mournival have over the rest ? They're simply the chosen of the Warmaster, each of the Primarchs had their own inner circles of trusted/favored sons.

The Mournival weren't special except to Horus.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

In _First Heretic_, I think its Lorgar who says, 'I fear my father may break us, and we will be cast aside like those brothers we no longer speak of' 

This is clearly an indication that at least one of the Legions fucked up. And in Prospero Burns its obvious that the Space Wolves have had a part in one or the other Legions destruction. 

However, Dorn seems to think that they could help in _Mechanicum_, and Malcador warns him 'do not even think it, they are lost to us forever'. Which maybe indicates that some of the Primarchs may have not entirely *agreed* on the Emperor's judgement of them. 

Some Primarchs seem to almost joke about it. For example, Mortarion chuckles to Magnus ''I once knew a being such as you, so sure of his own powers, my father made him pay for it with his life''. Now that is either a reference to one of their brothers, or, Mortarions foster-father that i don't think he got along with. 

Earlier in the page, Magnus wants to speak of the brothers but Mortarion warns him against it ''the Emperor forbade us to speak on it again''. Magnus is referring to gathering of Primarchs, meaning that there must have been some form of Ruling to judge at least one of the Primarchs, possibly similar to Nikea. 


Fucking interesting to say the least.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DoomDot said:


> I for one, and many of my 40K pals, are really hungry for info on them, and it would really ruin some of the history behind 40K if GW said "nono, they are nothing really. Just something that sounds cool". opcorn:


You know those films where there is a really really cool build up (think the grudge or the ring) and at the end you are left thinking 'well that was a really crap ending' - well its because there is so much more 'cool' in actually not knowing - because the ending that gets put in will always dissapoint.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Maidel said:


> You know those films where there is a really really cool build up (think the grudge or the ring) and at the end you are left thinking 'well that was a really crap ending' - well its because there is so much more 'cool' in actually not knowing - because the ending that get put in will always dissapoint.


:goodpost: Totally agree.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Originally posted by *Maidel*



> You know those films where there is a really really cool build up (think the grudge or the ring) and at the end you are left thinking 'well that was a really crap ending' - well its because there is so much more 'cool' in actually not knowing - because the ending that gets put in will always dissapoint.


Yeah but before the Horus Heresy series we knew fuck all about it really, and now we know alot more, its bloody cooler than not knowing in my opinion. :biggrin:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Longfang1234 said:


> Originally posted by *Maidel*
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but before the Horus Heresy series we knew fuck all about it really, and now we know alot more, its bloody cooler than not knowing in my opinion. :biggrin:


Really? What else do we actually know

We know they actually existed, we know they got their legions, we know they started the crusade and we know that SOMETHING happened that people cant talk about.

Thats actually just more questions, not more answers.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

noooooo i mean in relation to the actual heresy. like we knew the heresy happened before everything but we didnt know as many in depth little details. With these books that have shed light on the whole heresy we know alot more, and thats cooler than not knowing. I think they might let more info in on the two legions.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Longfang1234 said:


> noooooo i mean in relation to the actual heresy. like we knew the heresy happened before everything but we didnt know as many in depth little details. With these books that have shed light on the whole heresy we know alot more, and thats cooler than not knowing. I think they might let more info in on the two legions.


Hang on - thats two very separate things.

the Horus hersy has always been 'known' about - but there wasnt that much detail.

The two lost legions are 'shrouded in mystery' and no one knows anything about them.

Expanding on the already existing HH information is great - I dont want that to stop - but explaining what happened to the two lost legions would just be dissapointing because they could never make that event as good as the mystery.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Yeah I spose, although I'd love to know :laugh:

They should keep up with the whole 'giving clues' thing though, thats really effective.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Longfang1234 said:


> Yeah I spose, although I'd love to know :laugh:
> 
> They should keep up with the whole 'giving clues' thing though, thats really effective.


Ive wanted to know for 25 years...

However its been around for so long that if the actual answer wasnt so GOD AMAZING BEST THING EVER THATS SOO COOL - then id just be really dissapointed and wish they hadnt said.

So, no pressure there then :grin:


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

hahaha true true.


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