# Adult Recruitment into the Space Marines



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

All the canon I have read suggests that space marines are chosen at a young age, something to do with puberty enhancing the growth of the geneseed. I think this is silly.

For several reasons it would be far more interesting if Space Marines could be recruited at any age. 1. It would mean that space marine recruits would have lives and stories before putting on the power armor. 2. It would mean that recruitment into the Astartes would have less to do with potential and more to do with accomplishment. The Space Marines need not look for promising young men but could recruit men who had already proven their competence and skill in battle. 3. it would mean that chapters could be more specific in the qualities they are looking for in potential neophytes and 4. If Warhammer ever got their act together and actually made an MMO it could work as a leveling mechanic, that is a player could start as a level one guardsmen and level up to become a space marine.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

It may be silly but that is the reason. The various organs etc. used in the creation of a Space Marine would not take to an adult, or at least not in a good way.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

thing is the fluff is fluff, its just made up background stuff to give the models character, so it doesnt really matter if you think its amazing or silly, it is what it is, just words.
but the words say the process needs to start between 10 and 14 for the best chance of success, older has been done in times of past or when the chapter needs to, but if its planed recruitment you do it with a plan and for the best success hence the lower starting age.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Adults can and have been recruited as SMs. There are various mentions in the HH series of the primarch's chums from before the arrival of the Emperor being recruited in the ranks. It also mentions though, that some either are unsuitable for implantation or die during the process.

That is why chapters recruit teenagers almost exclusively. The time, effort and resources are so scarce that they must maximise their chances by using better suited candidates most likely to be succesfully turned into SMs.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Designation P-90 said:


> It may be silly but that is the reason. The various organs etc. used in the creation of a Space Marine would not take to an adult, or at least not in a good way.




That is not a reason. That is a canonical fabrication. It serves on purpose.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Adults can and have been recruited as SMs. There are various mentions in the HH series of the primarch's chums from before the arrival of the Emperor being recruited in the ranks. It also mentions though, that some either are unsuitable for implantation or die during the process.
> 
> That is why chapters recruit teenagers almost exclusively. The time, effort and resources are so scarce that they must maximise their chances by using better suited candidates most likely to be succesfully turned into SMs.



:headbutt:

You are missing the point. There is no reason for that to be true except that the authors said so. When something happens because of author say-so one has to question why the author said it. Can you think of a good reason why induction into the space marines should be so limited besides "because the authors say so"?


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> That is not a reason. That is a canonical fabrication. [...]


How does that prevent it from being a viable reason?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> :headbutt:
> 
> You are missing the point. There is no reason for that to be true except that the authors said so. When something happens because of author say-so one has to question why the author said it. Can you think of a good reason why induction into the space marines should be so limited besides "because the authors say so"?



are you ignoring the bit where he says adults can and have be inducted. 

are you looking for genuine medical reasoning why a fantasy character can or cannot take part in the process? if you accept the process happens because the writer says so, then you must also accept the writers restrictions otherwise what the fuck is the point of fiction


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> are you ignoring the bit where he says adults can and have be inducted.
> 
> are you looking for genuine medical reasoning why a fantasy character can or cannot take part in the process?


No, that is exactly what I don't want. What I want is a literary critique that states the thematic subtext of not letting old soldiers become neophyte super-soldiers. I want to know the logic behind the original decision to make space marines chosen at 10 and not at 50.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Endymion said:


> How does that prevent it from being a viable reason?




Because it assumes that the person who made that canonical decision has some authority over the 40k universe that supersedes all other creative input and that the decision of said person cannot be countermanded, which is absurd, 40k has changed a lot over the decades.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> :headbutt:
> 
> You are missing the point. There is no reason for that to be true except that the authors said so. When something happens because of author say-so one has to question why the author said it. Can you think of a good reason why induction into the space marines should be so limited besides "because the authors say so"?


'The authors say so' is the basis of nearly all fluff. Why is the golden throne failing? The authors say so. Why does the Imperium view technology through a prism of superstition? the authors say so? Why does x side win y battle? The authors say so. 


Other reasons for the induction of Space Marines being limited to teens. It gives the best chance of success and resources are scarce so naturally you prefer that. Space Marines are indoctrinated and brainwashed, this is easier to achieve at a younger age. You argue as adults they would have accomplishments, they still have these as teens. The Space Marines recruit from deadly, dangerous worlds. By the time you're a teen you have already killed and survived in a harsh environment, you've already proven yourself.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Its probably at least in part due to the age of the general people GW want to attract. "11-14? Wow! I could be an Astartes!"

Also, there is something to be said for the idea of a super soldier who could realistically be centuries old having known little or nothing else. Their entire lives have been dedicated and driven by the fact that they are Astartes. Also, with the many trials aspirants have to endure, having a child achieve them rather than a seasoned warrior adds to the drama of the whole situation and shows that only the very best of the best are anywhere near good enough.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Its probably at least in part due to the age of the general people GW want to attract. "11-14? Wow! I could be an Astartes!"
> 
> Also, there is something to be said for the idea of a super soldier who could realistically be centuries old having known little or nothing else. Their entire lives have been dedicated and driven by the fact that they are Astartes. Also, with the many trials aspirants have to endure, having a child achieve them rather than a seasoned warrior adds to the drama of the whole situation and shows that only the very best of the best are anywhere near good enough.


This is a good answer. Thank you.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The whole "authors are irrelevant" thing is a little inane. The reason my Gauss Flayers shoot green bolts of nanomolecular magnetic annihilation instead of unicorn giggles and rainbow peppermint patties is because "the author said so". When an author creates something its generally a framework you can work around. There are always exceptions to the rule especially in this scenario. But in all cases what an author says is generally concrete. Why? Because you are playing in the sand box HE created. You can build stuff too, just don't knock HIS sand castle down in the process.

Adults CAN become Astartes. The reason the age limit was chosen was nabbed by Norm in the post above mine. Its proven fact that children that know nothing but combat are unstoppable killing machines once they get older. It has been done in history.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok, critique? I will do my best.
1. Space Marines are Transhuman badasses who spit acid and have bones stronger than steel. From a meta perspective it makes sense to have it be teenagers, easier to mold into the mindset you want. An adult would bring their own thoughts and tactics to the table and that would possibly cause a lot of discord since the life of a marine is extremely regimented. and their discipline rather extreme. 

2. Why not have them be young? I don't see a lot of fifty year old recruits in the modern military. 

3. From a literary perspective a large number of protagonists begin their journey at around that age. From anime teens to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone, from Paul Atredies to the X-men this age is traditional. Its the end of childhood when our characters start to set in stone.

4. Exclusivity. I cannot stress this enough. If ANYONE of ANY age can become a space marine why AREN'T they? Geneseed? They could figure that out (and would have preheresy probably). The appeal of the space marine is two-fold, badassery and there elite nature. If anyone can be that amazing then they are really that elite anymore. After all, if everyone's special then no one is.

5. Family issues. Ever notice that most heroes are orphans or have absent parents? Wonder why? because it makes the character easier to write and a blank slate. In the world of 40k life is cheap and since marines live for hundreds potentially you would probably get a long extended family serving together. Sure that sounds good but it introduces unstable elements. Grand daddy chapter master might be swayed by concern for his son or grandson and not be able to risk their lives. Also ruins exclusivity again. (your dad and brother are Space Marines? Mine too!) 

6. It makes the stories of the marines that become marines more interesting. Talos was how old when he was killing people on Nostramo? How old was Rafen when he was braving bloody death? The trials that space marine aspirants have to go through are horrible and so show better the strength of character (in addition to other skills) in the individuals. Older men probably wouldn't survive. 

7. Almost every single time older men are modified it leads to bad things happening. Luther and Kor Pharon as prime examples. The younger you get a person the less the chance of corruption. Again the Space Marine is a template and an older man would bring his own history and issues with him. A lot of marines get selective mind wipings (grey knights the most rigorous of the lot) to get rid of any memories that they might retain that could be turned against them. Symbolically this makes sense since young=pure.

8. Because they aren't human. The whole point of the Space Marines is that they give up their humanity to better fight for mankind. Their outlooks are almost as alien as the xenos they fight. Such a radical shift in view would be extremely hard for an older man to make since by that point their identity is formed. Badass humans exist of course but in other areas and less often at the forefront of the fighting. an unaugmented 40 year old guardsmen beating a genestealer is a bloody triumph, take that same man and make them a space marine and its less impressive. That's why they are separate armies. If 7'6" ubermenches are your thing you play space marines, if normal humans paying in blood for every step froward they take is more your style then guard.

9 (and last). Because it was a cool idea years ago. This setting is full of logical issues and potential for something way cooler. Why aren't all these things in the fluff? Because the majority of people like it the way it is. 98 percent of people are not going to care if you have to be 15 to enter the marines or 72, what matters is that you are a SPHESS MAHRINE. Because of that it truly has ceased to matter if there are some flaws in the fluff. By the fluff chaos should roflstomp just about everything yet that never happens, the nids haven't eaten everything, the Necrons aren't all powerful (sun killer astrolabe notwithstanding). 40k is about taking a bunch of awesome stuff and then dumping even more awesome and epic things into that. Then setting all that on fire. To fixate on the details is to unravel the whole since the whole thing is lunacy anyway.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Astrates aren't always recruited from 'children' in each society, for instance, on Fenris, the likelihood of hitting 50 is very slim, so becoming a 'man' happens around 13-15.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> All the canon I have read suggests that space marines are chosen at a young age, something to do with puberty enhancing the growth of the geneseed. I think this is silly.
> 
> For several reasons it would be far more interesting if Space Marines could be recruited at any age. 1. It would mean that space marine recruits would have lives and stories before putting on the power armor. 2. It would mean that recruitment into the Astartes would have less to do with potential and more to do with accomplishment. The Space Marines need not look for promising young men but could recruit men who had already proven their competence and skill in battle. 3. it would mean that chapters could be more specific in the qualities they are looking for in potential neophytes and 4. If Warhammer ever got their act together and actually made an MMO it could work as a leveling mechanic, that is a player could start as a level one guardsmen and level up to become a space marine.


To answer your questions:

1. It doesn't jive with the grimdark indoctrination that the Space Marines deal with. They're subjected to propaganda, chemical treatment, conditioning, and hypnotic-indotrization. Having a person being a fully sentient adult would work against this concept.

2. Different Chapters recruit differently. The Space Wolves, for example, take only recruits that have proven themselves in combat. How can a 12 year old boy compete with men? The prodigies and exceptional do. Then nearly all Chapters have to have recruits prove themselves in various trials, anyway. Actual skill (and a fair bit of luck) come into play. In short, you have to prove you're an asset by the time you're 12-14.

3. Physical qualities they already filter for. Mental qualities are a bit squishier. If anything, recruiting younger means you can influence their development even more.

4. They could...but it cheapens the unattainability of the Space Marines. If anyone could become one, it loses some of its luster. Only a rare few can make it, and too bad, you missed your chance. That sort of thing.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Son, you come join the military.

You cannot do this. Why? You cannot do that. Why? Women cannot do this? Why. Old people cannot do that? Why.

Im guessing your the kind who'd run a Lawful Barbarian or CE Paladin, right?


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Son, you come join the military.
> 
> You cannot do this. Why? You cannot do that. Why? Women cannot do this? Why. Old people cannot do that? Why.
> 
> Im guessing your the kind who'd run a Lawful Barbarian or CE Paladin, right?


Not really my thing. If needed yes but I don't think it would be the best fit really. The maximum age for active duty none prior service in the army is 35, hardly an older person. I would hazard, though it is 6 am so I don't have time to check, that most new entry level recruitment are of men in the 18-24 range. That was my simple point. I also hazard that most of the command structure officerwise is in their 30s. Not a not knock on older people, far from it. Seniority comes with age and experience. Apologies if I somehow offered offense. 

And (randomly) I just had the Lawful barbarian conversation yesterday. Small world. Not that it matters but I don't see a massive problem with it though I personally don't play barbarians. And they have chaotic good pallys, paladins of freedom as well as a prestige class that is the same thing (holy liberator) so WotC already addressed that question. :grin:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

So GW decided that the implantation process works best during a period in a young man's life when he is hitting puberty and his body is starting to develop and grow into what it's going to become when he is an adult. Man, I wonder why?


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> So GW decided that the implantation process works best during a period in a young man's life when he is hitting puberty and his body is starting to develop and grow into what it's going to become when he is an adult. Man, I wonder why?


This. ^^

Plenty of early responses said the exact same thing but for some reason it just didnt get through..

Also, Vaz spot on:



Vaz said:


> Son, you come join the military.
> You cannot do this. Why? You cannot do that. Why? Women cannot do this? Why. Old people cannot do that? Why.
> Im guessing your the kind who'd run a Lawful Barbarian or CE Paladin, right?


I never joined but have family and friends in the forces, I know where you are coming from, my old boss was an ex Royal Marine Commando...


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

a child is like an empty book at 12-14, once they hit 15-16 they already have formed their own ideas, of life, the imperium, the emperor, i dont think the chapters really want that type of autonomy of thought, they want soldiers, blank slates, with the independence of thought that extends only to the battlefield, they dont want them to formulate ideas that would perhaps endanger their own loyalty and thereby the imperium.

Also aside from biological factors, memories can and are often used by the primordial Annihalator as tools to discourage and corrupt space marines, perhaps the enemy could use their memories of their family, friends to threaten and demoralize the astartes.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> :headbutt:
> 
> You are missing the point. There is no reason for that to be true except that the authors said so. When something happens because of author say-so one has to question why the author said it. Can you think of a good reason why induction into the space marines should be so limited besides "because the authors say so"?


How am I missing the point? I said that adults have been made SMs because they have proved themselves to the primarchs, and gained skills deemed valuable to the legion. I agreed with you that adult inductees would be a valuable asset. I did however point out why this is too inefficient and unreliable to be worth the effort.

You seem to be missing the point that authors have created _everything _in the 40k universe. These people are employed by GW to create a mythos that we the readers can engage with. Just because you don't agree with something that is laid down as fact by every SM novel and codex published in the last 20 years doesn't mean you can discard it as rubbish and insert your own. 

So, when it comes to a fictional universe set 40,000 years in the future, if the authors say so, it is fact.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Durant said:


> Also, Vaz spot on:
> 
> 
> 
> I never joined but have family and friends in the forces, I know where you are coming from, my old boss was an ex Royal Marine Commando...


Ok, I confess I reread everything that I wrote and I don't see what either of you are talking about. I can tell I hit a nerve but for the life of me I have no idea what it is. Where do I say "can't do this or can't be that"? At least in the US the age for enlistment is capped at 35 in the army (with variations for other branches) and since it is enlistment we are talking about the only comment I can see that might be the cause for issue is "I don't see a lot of fifty year old recruits in the modern military". Am I wrong in this? Do a lot of 50 year olds sign up? How can they? I know they have age wavers but even so. Traditionally and historically I am pretty sure I am correct in saying that the average rank and file soldier was younger rather than older. Did I say no older person was in the army? Nope. I said I didn't see 50 year old recruits. How does that insult anyone? The 50 year old guys in the army have been there a while usually. They are in command, not running through basic training. 

My grandfather fought in World war II, a large chunk of my high school friends are in the service and have seen active duty. I have naught but respect for them but they all joined up at around 18-22. Once they are in I know that they might stay for decades but I was again talking about enlistment. The US flirted with allowing recruits up to age 41 but dropped it. My point was more about the enlistment rather than those others already in service. Apologies if that was not clear, I thought recruit implied it. Anyhow, hopefully fences mended and bridges rebuilt. :biggrin:


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

SonofMalice

If I was to say:

"Ours is not to question why but to do or die"

Would that help you understand where Vaz is coming from ref the military comment.

Its just in that walk of life you do as you are told and questions are not an option, my old boss brought that mentality into the workplace, and to be honest, it worked.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Durant said:


> SonofMalice
> 
> If I was to say:
> 
> ...


Perhaps, though I would not agree about the questioning bit. It's in my nature to question so not doing so is a bit hard for me to comprehend to be honest. It's still a little unclear what precisely I said that caused offense. Honestly I didn't think I was questioning anything, merely stating a demographic. If I am in error apologies but what does that have to do with questioning? When did I say "can't this or can't that"? I can't see any of the explicitly stated so it leads me to suspect that this was nothing more than a simple misinterpretation on both sides. If it isn't than I guess I don't understand but that's ok, I can't understand everything after all. I didn't realize that I had/would hit a nerve so my bad I guess. :grin:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Wasn't directed at you mate; I meant the OP I just couldn't be arsed using my phone to type out his name, and son sounded derogatory. I hadn't even read your post (or knew you had posted tbh), so it wasn't meant for you. Just completely coincidental that it happened to be "relevant" (i still don't know if what I said is relevant in anyway, ive not yet read it).

The ops posts on why astartes are cock crusaders and paedo playpens as opposed to taking women and oldies is akin to an instructor saying "dont do this" and someone saying "why?"

Aside from the answer usually being they will be doing hill sprints from noon til colours, its "because I said so". 


As for old people - usually dont have the fitness level and too prone to injuries. In my unit there are no sabres older than 31, and hes slower than us, his cartilage in his knees is non existant... Basically after the battering the body has taken, by 35-40 you have the same problems batman had in dark knight rises.

As for women, in the line of work we do, bad enough press live cabbageheads get captured and beheaded, dumped on the roadside outside schools that the week before they were helping build. That happeslns with gi jane, and its goodnight sweet war, goodnight sweet goverment, goodnight sweet everything.

Lass gets shot. Few more twangs on the heartstrings of emotional harp, do more to get her out of a firefight than I would do for a fella. Misogynistic, but Im fitter, stronger, likely faster, but im also a bigger threat so hopefully draw fire; draw fire downs two instead
of one.

The dead man takes 1 man out of the fight. The wounded man takes 3 - himself and his two mates who evac.

During SERE, you see some nasty shit, and hear about it. Had lectures from McNab and Ryan over their experiences during B20. A
woman, due to the way the male body is wired (both socially and physically from birth) is a hindrance as they typically slow you down, and provide distraction, another fella you would typically trust, but social wiring configures us to be protective of the female, and hence
future of the species/bloodline whatever primordial instinct you want to call it.

30,000 years of war might have changed that. And yet I was talking about his questioning of GW "doctrine" - might as well ask why the nids invaded from the east - because GW said so, the reasoning being that their swarms from the (assumed) andromeda galaxy to the galactic east is where they last fed.

Why SM young and male exclusively? Because GW said so. Their reasoning is that biological enhancement takes better in younger bodies, it was not designed for females (might be reliant on a prostate, or semen, who knows? "Seed" is a fairly obvious indication of term), and that young boys are hence better able to take to the indoctrination. Some go to extremes to get young children - like the Red Scorpions who take their children from the populace who leave them out to suffer exposure immediately after birth, so 12-15 years is spent in the chapter.

@Durant - cabbagehead=boss? Sounds about right. Hi from another bootyneck!


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Wasn't directed at you mate; I meant the OP I just couldn't be arsed using my phone to type out his name, and son sounded derogatory. I hadn't even read your post (or knew you had posted tbh), so it wasn't meant for you. Just completely coincidental that it happened to be "relevant" (i still don't know if what I said is relevant in anyway, ive not yet read it).
> 
> The ops posts on why astartes are cock crusaders and paedo playpens as opposed to taking women and oldies is akin to an instructor saying "dont do this" and someone saying "why?"


Ok lol, I didn't think there was anything that was massively off the mark since the rest of your post pretty much reiterates what I said albeit with much more firsthand experience. I spent the whole day confused and going "The hell did I say wrong?"


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

The Emperor's Gift novel may offer a clue with its' phrasing, as right in the beginning it describes an Astartes physiology as being that of a normal human, but with 10 extra years of growth. Hence it's important to induct initiates at a point where their body may continue to grow.

Psychological purity may also be a concern-the younger the candidate it, the less likelyhood that he is touched by the Ruinous powers, and the easier to shape his psyche according to the tenets of his Chapter.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yet another post demanding to know why GW don't change their long established fluff simply because you don't agree with it. This thread seems just as trollish and retarded as your female astartes one.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The OP has been answered and acknowledged. Does anything else really need to be said?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> :headbutt:
> 
> You are missing the point. There is no reason for that to be true except that the authors said so. When something happens because of author say-so one has to question why the author said it. Can you think of a good reason why induction into the space marines should be so limited besides "because the authors say so"?


I can think of two reasons.

1. Warhammer 40k is based around the concept of dystopia - mankind fighting a desperate battle against even worse monsters than their own masters at the species' eleventh hour. Children being exposed to horrific brutality in order to become mankind's premier super-soldier fits that theme much more than willing adult volunteers.

2. Perhaps the original authors were influenced by Frank Herbert, whose work also toyed with super-soldiers indoctrinated in horrific environments (the Sardaukar and the Fremen). Or perhaps they were more influenced by Leto II's Fish Speakers (from later on in the same series), whose theme was that the perfect army was one that went contrary to societal norms (the idea being that traditional armies would fall prey to predatory human behavior).


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Haven't they already had adults made into SM?

Don't they go through all kinds of modifications to heighten strength, blah blah blah everything through a bunch of medical procedures? In the fluff and Dark Heresy you can get implants, special muscle, all kinds of weird shit.

Which is easier though?

Doing hundreds or thousands of hours of medical procedures using vastly expensive and rare materials to someone.

or

Implanting a special gland that just grows the boy into the space marine, who lives longer and is physically better than the adult converted version?


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