# Fire Warriors in Close Combat



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Now _everyone_ knows that fire warriors suck at combat. 
Why?
From what I know of their profile, there's no reason that they would be slaughtered so easily, especially with defensive grenades, but apparently that is incorrect.

And what about gaurd? I can't see any reason why gaurd would be any better than FWs in cc or is it just 'cause everyone's so used to them dropping like one-winged flies?


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Don't FWs have like WS 2? that means even a lowly guardsman knows how to wield his bayonet better than a FW in his fancy suit.


----------



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Really? oh. That would explain a lot indeed.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

To put it simply:


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

OMGWTFLMAO!!!! :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> To put it simply:


BWAHAHJHAHAHHAHA!
That's fucking fantastic man!

Now, the reason they die so easily can only be attributed to their WS of 2, it means basically everything hits them on a 3+.
Other than that, they're actually BETTER in melee than Guardsmen.
Because most melee units have either WS4+, I4+, or both, their WS and I being so low means very little (ok, so against something WS5+ they hit on 5, so what?).
And the reason they're better, is because they have good armour, unlike Guardsmen.
I guess they can take power weapons though, but just default units I'm talking about.


----------



## scarara (Mar 25, 2009)

if you read the tau codex, it does explain in the history that they view close up mano a mano fighting as crude an barbaric, all of their stuff is geared towards long range 'im gonna shoot you from way over there' tactics and is represented a such with piddly close combat. if you want nasty 'im gonna rip ur face off and eat it' while stomping on ur testicles they have kroot and vespids, 20 kroot on the charge is nasty to most armour clad marines. and they are cheap!!!!!


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Tau don't have power weapons, an IG sergeant can have one though.
I don't know howmuch points a firewarrior squad of 10 is, but it's undoubtably more expensive as an IG squad.
THey have a 4+ save, but in CC, guardsmen have a 5+, they hit better, and wound just as easily. Add the option of a commissar and a powerweapon or two, and they will probably win combat against a FW squad, and send them running. Even if by luck the FWs win combat, the stubborn IG squad with their commissar will remain standing to continue fighting, denying the shootyness that FWs are good at.
Oh, and lets not forget.. orders and other tricks the IG have these days.. Furious Assault on a squad of IG makes them quite scary. Especially if they are fighting something that isn't GeQ. ( maybe we should add another standard.. since GeQ has changed considerably with the new IG toys )


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Tau don't have power weapons, an IG sergeant can have one though.
> I don't know howmuch points a firewarrior squad of 10 is, but it's undoubtably more expensive as an IG squad.
> THey have a 4+ save, but in CC, guardsmen have a 5+, they hit better, and wound just as easily. Add the option of a commissar and a powerweapon or two, and they will probably win combat against a FW squad, and send them running. Even if by luck the FWs win combat, the stubborn IG squad with their commissar will remain standing to continue fighting, denying the shootyness that FWs are good at.
> Oh, and lets not forget.. orders and other tricks the IG have these days.. Furious Assault on a squad of IG makes them quite scary. Especially if they are fighting something that isn't GeQ. ( maybe we should add another standard.. since GeQ has changed considerably with the new IG toys )


Ok yeah.
But the point is, when they're charged by a better unit (given default wargear) a Tau unit is better than a Guard unit, they have Photon Flash.
I suppose though that I2 is a PLAGUE when you break, because you're basically fucked when they sweep you.
Best you can hope for is that they're Terminators, and so can't sweep.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Oh, they got I2 as well, then the guardsmen will definitely slaughter them, even without a powerweapon upgrade. I'll see if I can mathhammer this:

IG squad charges FW squad, both 10 people, not bothering with guard dirty tricks either.

IG has I3, so hits first.
21 attacks 3+ to hit => 14 hits 4+ to wound => 7 Armour Saves 4+ => 3.5 dead FW

6.5 FW hit back

7.5 attacks 4+ to hit => 3.75 hits 4+ to wound => 1.855 armour saves 5+ => 1.2 dead IG.

IG wins by 2.7
FW ld = 7? they will probably run.
IG chase with higher initiative, and most likely mop up the rest.

I could write the scenario with the FW charging, but that won't ever happen, since rapidfire with their rifles would be much more effective.

Still.. the IG charging them gives even a basic squad without upgrades the advantage.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Oh, they got I2 as well, then the guardsmen will definitely slaughter them, even without a powerweapon upgrade. I'll see if I can mathhammer this:
> 
> IG squad charges FW squad, both 10 people, not bothering with guard dirty tricks either.
> 
> ...


The IG veteran is forced to take CC and pistol, so they should have had an extra .125 of a kill 
But you failed to take into account Photon grenades, that would halve the kills they make.
Which makes it about even.

And a Tau sergeant has Ld 8.

Even though a squad of 10 FW with photons and a sergeant is 120 points, more than double that IG squad *cough*


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

What do photon grenades do? I'm not very familiar with Tau wargear, especially obscure stuff like that. Normally I just flame Tau.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> What do photon grenades do? I'm not very familiar with Tau wargear, especially obscure stuff like that. Normally I just flame Tau.


Defensive grenades.
But yes, heavy flamers destroy them.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Ahh ok.. lemme remathhammer it then:

10 IG, that's 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 saves, 2 kills.

8 FW, 9 atacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 saves, 1.5 kills.

Still a good chance they will lose combat, and then they're done for. and considering that the FW squad costs more than twice as much, I would say, that's a good deal.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Ahh ok.. lemme remathhammer it then:
> 
> 10 IG, that's 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 saves, 2 kills.
> 
> ...


Hehe, yeah.
But yeah, they're not as woeful as people make them out to be.
Just quite woeful.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, if I'd upgrade this squad for proper CC.. it would be a bit scarier:

IG squad, power weapon, commissare, another power weapon => 105 points.

9 regular attacks, 6 hits, 3 saves, 1.5 dead FW
6 PW attacks, 4 hits, 2 more dead.
Total: 3.5 dead.

6.5 counter attacks, 3.25 hits, 1.62 saves, 1 dead

IG win by 2.5 to send the tau packing.

Add the vox, and get creed to yell at them...

9 attacks, 6 hits, 4 saves, 2 dead
6 pw attacks, 4 hits, 2.7 dead

Total: 4.7 dead.

5.3 counter attacks, 2.65 hits, 1.32 saves, 0.8 dead guards.

IG win by 3.9


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Well, if I'd upgrade this squad for proper CC.. it would be a bit scarier:
> 
> IG squad, power weapon, commissare, another power weapon => 105 points.
> 
> ...


Silence <_<

Let's look at assault marines.
How many would be even in points?
115 points for 5 and sarge with a power weapon, we'll go with that.


8 normal attacks, 3 power attacks.
5.3 hits from normal, 3.5 wounds, 1.75 die.
2 Power hits, 1.3 die.
That's 3.25, I'll round to 3, dead, and a much more realistic situation than 10 guard 

8 attacks back, 4 hit, 1.3 wounds, er...
No deaths?
Well, .43333333333 etc deaths.

So um, Tau lose, significantly more.
And then they most likely get sweeped.
OR, catch this, they don't run, because you're not stupid and don't think Ethereals are crap.
So, they fail their Ld test at Ld 5, and then pass because they're tough!
Then you counter-charge with Kroot


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Actually.. you might be in for a nasty surprise then.. IG have several options to outlank you with a considerable amount of units. ( a platoon with Al'Rahem comes to mind )
Making them suddenly appear in your flank and assaulting you. With El'Outflanker, they can also get 1d6 extra movement AND shoot their assault weapons at you with his 'Like The Wind' order.
Creed can make any one unit outflank you, valkyries can appear from the flanks and drop them down. So not as impossible as it sounds.

OR they decide they're goign to moshpit you, and rush you with say 10 squads of infantry while their tanks exchange blows with yours.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Actually.. you might be in for a nasty surprise then.. IG have several options to outlank you with a considerable amount of units. ( a platoon with Al'Rahem comes to mind )
> Making them suddenly appear in your flank and assaulting you. With El'Outflanker, they can also get 1d6 extra movement AND shoot their assault weapons at you with his 'Like The Wind' order.
> Creed can make any one unit outflank you, valkyries can appear from the flanks and drop them down. So not as impossible as it sounds.
> 
> OR they decide they're goign to moshpit you, and rush you with say 10 squads of infantry while their tanks exchange blows with yours.


In which case I shoot lots and hope like fuck that they don't reach me 
But, as I said, it's more likely I'm going to be charged by an assault squad than a whole shitload of Guardsmen, because Tau have a LOT of pinning weapons.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Get back into the fight.. anyone?


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Get back into the fight.. anyone?


T_T

But really, if they were out in the open, like 3 squads a turn would be getting pinned.
Yes yes, they'd probably have enough orders and pass all of them.
But, it would still slow their advance as that order is used in the shooting phase, after they've already not moved.


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Is it really worth considering which of the two worst cc units in 40k would win a fist fight?

Any way you look at it, the guard win. You either have assorted power weps or you just bring 20 guard vs 10 FWs. No contest. However, there's no real chance of IG successfully running up to a tau army and assaulting it, or vice versa, so forget about it.

Also, not entirely surprising that assault marines beat the FWs. They really murder IG as we'll. Running the numbers for genestealers, khorne berzerkers, assault terminators and death company will see IG and FWs continue to struggle.


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Unfortunately they just suck
low initiative
low everything
crisis on the other hand are better as they are strength 5 which makes wounding easier
but generally i would rather have a round of shooting then combat
we are better at it


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Actually.. vs a SM tactical squad of 5 with a sarge and a PW, IG would do this:

Creed yells at the squad to go kill em.

IG assaulting SM both hit at I4.

IG: 
27 attacks => 13.5 hits => 6.75 saves => 2.25 kills
10 PW attacks => 5 hits => 2.5 kills.
Aka possibly dead tactical squad.

SM:
4 attacks => 2 2/3 hits => 1 7/9 saves => 1 5/27 kills
3 PW attacks => 2 hits => 1 1/3 kills.

IG win and either oblitorate them, or there is one guy left who has a big problem.

Be afraid.. the IG are assaulting you..


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

What the hell kind if squad of imperial guard is that? Who is this IG sergeant with 10 attacks on the charge, and why are the guardsmen getting 3 each?

Maybe you have a commissar, and maybe you think that furious charge gives extra attacks. It doesn't.

Actually, charging IG with Creed giving orders, and with a commissar and sergeant both using power weps do beat tactical marines. That's really fine, as the two squads you discuss cost the same amount. The marines win if they charge and win the shooting match by a mile.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Oops, my bad.. I thought furious charge gave you +1 attack too.. and yes.. there was a commissar involved in that.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Actually, charging IG with Creed giving orders, and with a commissar and sergeant both using power weps do beat tactical marines. That's really fine, as the two squads you discuss cost the same amount. The marines win if they charge and win the shooting match by a mile.


Oooooooh yeah they do!
And Einar, something you got wrong there.
They both strike at initiative 4.
So the marines would get their full compliment of attacks. ie: 11, including 3 pweps.


----------



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Heheh, once you gaurd try and get tau tanks to match, you'll discover two things-
A) Broadsides are better at killing your tanks than your tanks are at killing them
B) Submunission rounds are _Nasty_ against infantry, especially Geqs


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

> Heheh, once you gaurd try and get tau tanks to match, you'll discover two things-
> A) Broadsides are better at killing your tanks than your tanks are at killing them
> B) Submunission rounds are Nasty against infantry, especially Geqs


A) That is why guard have HWPs and melta guns in hordes of chimera's. You can't kill ALL of them before they deliver their melta cargo.
Also your tanks will have problems with those tanks that are hidden and using camo netting. 3+ cover saves and indirect fire for the win.

B) Guardsmen have a perfect solution to having entire squads wiped out in a single shot: MORE GUARDSMEN! As already stated earlier, an IG squad costs half of what your precious FWs cost, so bringing in a lot is easy.

The biggest asset almost any IG army has: Quantity.


----------



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

That said, over seen the better part of two 30 ork mobs get taken out with a single shot, and from what I've heard, orks are _marginally_ harder to kill then gaurdsmen, and come in similar quantities.

ooh ooh heavy weapons team! I've answered this one before!
What, _two_ wounds you say. . . oh. . . well. . . Just as well for me it won't do anything.

Abstract thought - railrifles would be pretty good aqainst Heavy weapons teams, wouldn't they?

Wait. . . HW_P_ please tell me that's a mis-spelling or have I just made a fool of myself?


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Asmodeun said:


> Wait. . . HW_P_ please tell me that's a mis-spelling or have I just made a fool of myself?


I'd say you've made a fool of yourself, becuase I have NO idea what you mean.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Broadsides aren't that scary, my friend used one against me with 2 shield drones (at least i think they were shiled drones, they gave him a inv. save) and he didn't do anything to my Leman Russ, and it spent the game whitling down his shield drones 

As for the shooty match, just hide all the IG squads and use a basilisk or 3, chances are anything not killed will be pinned, which prevent the use of defensive grenades. 

So yeah, just manouver a squad into assault range in the movement phase, blast the FW squad with a basilisk in the shooting phase, finish off the survivors in the assault phase.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> Broadsides aren't that scary, my friend used one against me with 2 shield drones (at least i think they were shiled drones, they gave him a inv. save) and he didn't do anything to my Leman Russ, and it spent the game whitling down his shield drones


Remember, both the Broadsides and their Shield Drones have a 2+ armour save.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

true, but the shield drones share the T and Sv of the model they accompany. T of a broadside is 4, battle cannons S is 8, so since it would instant death them he had to use the shield drones Inv. save.


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Nonsense. Instant kill doesn't bypass armour saves; ap does. A shield drone in a broadside unit gets a 2+ armour save against battlecannons.


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Nonsense. Instant kill doesn't bypass armour saves; ap does. A shield drone in a broadside unit gets a 2+ armour save against battlecannons.



If this is true then people have been cheating me like anything
Where is my rulebook
haha


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Nonsense. Instant kill doesn't bypass armour saves; ap does. A shield drone in a broadside unit gets a 2+ armour save against battlecannons.


Oh god, I see where this is going.
In FOURTH edition Double Strength weapons ignored armour saves, but NOW they don't.
Fuck, people need to read the rules sometimes.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Well someguy, that's my opponent said! i didn't think anything of it, partly because i would rather he use a 4+ then a 2+, partly because it makes sense, if a weapon is string enough to kill a multi-wound model instantly then it makes sense that it would also destroy the armour that they're wearing.

I've never really encountered ID before, only that one time, so don't really understand it. But like i said, if my opponent wishes to use a 4+ instead of a 2+ then i'm not going to stop them!


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

For the record, strength has never had an effect on armour saves in 40k. In warhammer, you get save modifiers based on strength but even in first edition 40k this was never used and weapons just had set save modifiers. ID didn't take your armour save away in 3rd or 4th and still doesn't. 

ID does remove FNP saves, and these are also removed by AP 1 or 2 attacks, power weapons and so on.

But sure, if your opponent wants to take the 4+ then that's his problem. I'd point out his mistake if I knew but there's no real obligation on you to do so, and it's not your job to learn the rules for his army.

Also, don't worry about what makes sense; worry about what the rules say. It doesn't make sense that a witch blade cuts through a dreadnought but bounces off a termie, and then a power sword kills the termie but does nothing to the dread. The rules for saves and vehicle armour penetration are weird.


----------



## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

I think the real reason FWs lose in CC is because they can't marker light in melee!

I do think they get a bad wrap for CC, partially deserved but also exaggerated. They're not the only unit that falls apart in CC, especially when put against an army designed for it. The most you can really hope for as the army having your non-melee units assaulted is to either be wiped out entirely to shoot at the enemy next turn or tie them up longer and deal a little damage (depending on the situation). I know I've similarly wished to not wipe the FWs completely out on the assault before, and arrange mutli-assaults to spread the hurt so that they hold up a little longer or, ya know, I kill more of them. Nothing sucks more than staring down the barrel of a rail gun with no Buddhist space commandos left to use as body shields. I guess what this entire paragraph is saying is, the situation is fluid. FWs suck in melee, but they're supposed to.

I still think IG is more fun to assault than tau. It seems like a much longer run towards the FWs than a squad of 40 IG with a Commissar... and straken behind them giving Counter Attack... shouting "first rank fire, second rank fire!" I think it may have to do with the marker lights, or that I'm more used to running into guard. Tau are just alien to me I guess. (See what I did there?)


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

If straken was behind that unit, I'd have them positioned to charge YOU.. furious assault guardsmen for the win.. eat 50 guardsman MOB with Strength FOUR and striking at the same initiative as your marines!


----------



## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> If straken was behind that unit, I'd have them positioned to charge YOU.. furious assault guardsmen for the win.. eat 50 guardsman MOB with Strength FOUR and striking at the same initiative as your marines!


Ugh... Straken. A friend tried to convince me you get Furious Charge when you use Counter Attack. He was wrong but I appreciate his gusto.

I just have to be careful and use my totally sweet jump packs to assault from further away than you could, cut down like 10 of them easily, then watch them get another 60 attacks back. It's still painful, but I think I take solace in the fact that I may get the assault over those Straken-wielding IG. 

Oh right, Fire Warriors -- totally lose to both of these situations.


----------



## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Asmodeun said:


> Heheh, once you gaurd try and get tau tanks to match, you'll discover two things-
> A) Broadsides are better at killing your tanks than your tanks are at killing them
> B) Submunission rounds are _Nasty_ against infantry, especially Geqs


Flak Tanks anyone? Say bye bye to all those high flyin Tau "Tanks" and as for Brodsides, plasma plasma plasma!

Now back to the subject at hand, for CC between FW and Guard, if you take into account that 9 Firewarrios their Shas'ui and photon grenades cost more than one squad of Guardsmen in a Chimera, than your FW Gunline is probably staring down a Mechanized Guard squad. Meaning they move faster, have heavier weapons, and possibly even a power weapon. Even if you had 11 Shas'la, 1 Shas'ui, Photon Grenades, and a Bonding knife, the likelihood of you surviving a Mechanized Guard squad sweeping into you is nill to none. Str5 weapons ping off Chimera front armor, and barely have a chance of penetrating side or rear.

So, for a straight up fight at around 150pts the Firewarrior Team can bring 11 Shas'la, 1 Shas'ui, Photon Grenades, and Bonding Knife (can I get someone to check that, it's been a while) and a Squad of Guardies can bring 9 Guard, 1 Sergeant, Chimera, Commissar, and a Power Weapon. It's obvious to me whose gonna win that scrap, even if they moved 12" with the Chimera for 2 turns to reach you, thus not being able to fire it's weapons for 2 turns, then waited to disgorge it's contents onto you the next turn. The fact of the matter is that you're facing down 10 Guardies, 1 Commissar with a Power Weapon, a Multi Laser and Heavy Bolter or 2 Heavy Bolters or even worse, 2 heavy flamers.

Point for point, Guardies have better regulars than Tau, even if they don't have the same weapon or armor as you, wanna know why? Because the points they don't spend on an over powered bolter or carapace armor can be used to buy other toys like a Chimera.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

on the point of broadsides why even take a tank? use a armoured sentienel or 3, and give them plasma cannons, try and walk them to within 36" of the broadsides. With the new posable legs you can cut the height of a sentinel in half pretty much making it easier to hide behind scenery. 3 S7 AP2 Blasts FTW!


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> on the point of broadsides why even take a tank? use a armoured sentienel or 3, and give them plasma cannons, try and walk them to within 36" of the broadsides. With the new posable legs you can cut the height of a sentinel in half pretty much making it easier to hide behind scenery. 3 S7 AP2 Blasts FTW!


First of all, we were talking about TANKS, as in, Leman Russes.
The point is they only have AP3, obviously AP2 weaponry would do very well against them.

And about the posing thing, that's what most people like to call 'Greasy', as in, borderline cheating.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Winterous said:


> First of all, we were talking about TANKS, as in, Leman Russes.
> The point is they only have AP3, obviously AP2 weaponry would do very well against them.


Gee, you were talking about tanks? i never knew, and thanks for pointing out that Leman Russes were tanks, i didn't know that either.
/sarcasm



Winterous said:


> And about the posing thing, that's what most people like to call 'Greasy', as in, borderline cheating.


It isn't borderline cheating, you buy the kit and you can pose it however you like, they give an example on how they model it but that is it. Borderline cheating would be making a 10" wall around on its base with only a small slot for firing out of, no making it crouch.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Against guard, Fire warriros probably will never see combat. Guard just cannot withstand the amount of punishment a complete Tau army can deliver.

On a rock-paper-scissors note, i believe that Tau are the Rock to the Guard scissor.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Why are we still discussing Fire Warriors and Guardsmen beating on each other in combat? What about Grots? Surely both Fire Warriors and Guardsmen can beat on them! Ratlings, too!


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Why are we still discussing Fire Warriors and Guardsmen beating on each other in combat? What about Grots? Surely both Fire Warriors and Guardsmen can beat on them! Ratlings, too!


Actually...

Gretchin are a THIRD the cost of a fire warrior.
I would definitely prefer them in melee :S


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Winterous said:


> Actually...
> 
> Gretchin are a THIRD the cost of a fire warrior.
> I would definitely prefer them in melee :S


Well sure, but what if there was a Vanguard Veteran Squad with jump packs who were all armed with lightning claws?

If you can't tell, I'm just making fun of the pointlessness of the thread. I'm not being serious. :laugh:


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

There's no point telling people it's pointless. One day one of them will play a game of 40k, and after that it will start to be worth discussing tactics.

Until then, it's only a slight waste of the internet to have these discussions. Sure, it could be better used for videos of fat kids falling over, but this is funnier.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

<_<
>_>
*hides*


----------

