# Fluff you absolutley HATE



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

For me its the emperor being the result of a shaman suicide fest, the old rogue trader era fluff stinks of eighties sci fi/fantasy lol.
Please god make the shaman origin no longer be considered canon, its just so corny.

Just rly wondering what parts of 40k fluff you hate and discard in your own minds version of 40kverse, for me its the shaman thing as already said. Also the statement that slaanesh was made by the eldar. Afterall dersire and excess already existed independently of the space elfs and a desire/pleasure entity would have form beforehand anyway.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ardias26 said:


> Just rly wondering what parts of 40k fluff you hate and discard in your own minds version of 40kverse, for me its the shaman thing as already said. Also the statement that slaanesh was made by the eldar. Afterall dersire and excess already existed independently of the space elfs and a desire/pleasure entity would have form beforehand anyway.


The eldar took it to the extreme and they had an empire that was the size of the eye of terror and they are major psykers. If they didn't exist slaanesh would of formed....just would be after 40k.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Interesting topic.

I've always detested how the Emperor was such a dim-witted dad, and also how he hid knowledge about the Warp gods. Honestly, how the hell did not see the HH coming?

I respectfully disagree re eldar - my understanding is that the eldar became progressively worse with their activity re excess of desire/ emotion etc over a period of time, therefore it was not just the mere presence of eldar, but there increasing activity - pleasure cults, deaths etc - that led to the creation of Slaanesh. Im over-simplifying here.

And I have to say Ive always liked the idea of the shaman birth of the Emperor -its poetic to think of our ancients being able to do something we cant, and also explains comfortably why the Emperor was a one of a kind, never to be repeated. An issue very crucial to the balance of the 40k universe.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Ardias- If Slannesh was never born, humanity on Terra would be stuck forever since the warp storms surrounding Terra would take ages to desist or stop. Also The Eldar race as a whole are psychically attuned in nature and to a higher degree more sensitive to the warp. They also feel and experience emotions at a much higher level then humanity does and can easily fall or lose control to any desires or obsessions. 

Without Slannesh = no galaxy spanning human empire, Eldar race would still be the most dominant xeno's nation and their empire would probably rule for millions of more years till some other disaster befalls them. ( 40k story line would cease to exist beyond that point and GW would be out of business. Lol) 

Anyways the Eldar simply speeded up the coming of Slannesh if anything. Without the Eldar Slannesh would be born millions of years later. 

Darkoan- Its not like the Emperor had a "How to be a good dad" guide book to follow. lol and Like most parents, they are hardly aware of the condition there kids are in if they dont study and understand them. The Emperor never tried to understand all his children or primarchs and simply let them be and basically said "Hey you guys are the bearer of my legacy, now shut up, grow up, and conquer the galaxy for me." 

A interesting thought has come up:

Did the beginning of psykers occur when the Emperor had many wives and mated and had kids which then had their own kids passing the psychic infused genes on to further generations?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> The eldar took it to the extreme and they had an empire that was the size of the eye of terror and they are major psykers. If they didn't exist slaanesh would of formed....just would be after 40k.


Actually their empire was galaxy-spanning, where the Eye of Terror now rests was just the 'heartland' of the empire.

As for Slaanesh being born of the Eldar, well yes obviously pleasure and excess was present prior to the decadence of Eldar civilisation - and Slaanesh has always existed within the warp to some degree. But it took the terrible extremes that the Eldar empire descended into to truly bring forth the Dark Prince.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Ardias- If Slannesh was never born, humanity on Terra would be stuck forever since the warp storms surrounding Terra would take ages to desist or stop.


The whole reason for said warp storms (A.k.a Age of Stife) in the first place was because Slaanesh was coalescing thus causing turmoil within the warp. Her birth ended the warp storms, their rage having been spent with her birth but ultimately she (via the Eldar's decadence) was the cause for them in the first place.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Without Slannesh = no galaxy spanning human empire, Eldar race would still be the most dominant xeno's nation and their empire would probably rule for millions of more years till some other disaster befalls them. ( 40k story line would cease to exist beyond that point and GW would be out of business. Lol)


Humanity was a galaxy-spanning race prior to Slaanesh bursting into divine consciousness, A.k.a Dark Age of Technology. And would generally probably be better off if it wasn't for the Age of Strife (which occured because Slaanesh was growing in power).



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Did the beginning of psykers occur when the Emperor had many wives and mated and had kids which then had their own kids passing the psychic infused genes on to further generations?


No, humanity (like most if not all races fostered by the Old Ones) has always been a psychically attuned race. 

As for lore I don't like or enjoy - well it's not exactly lore, but I really don't like the term 'Space Marines' it just sounds terrible. Hence why you'll always see me referring to them as Astartes; Legio or Adeptus. And I'm glad at least one BL author (ADB) agrees with me on this one and takes the same stance.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Darkoan said:


> Honestly, how the hell did not see the HH coming?


There was no way he could've *not* seen it coming, which leads one to believe perhaps the whole thing was intended.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Sisters of Battle. What is there purpose but to give Ordo Hereticus something to drool over. 
And what with the skintight armor?

Rouge traders. They can just make marines go with them to explore new worlds. How does that work?
"Hollo there...Mr. Ultramarine, you are comming with me now. Along with you Sr. Space Wolf. What was that? You want to serve your chapter and primarch? Tough shit, I'm your primarch, and the guy next to you is your chapter."

The Imperial Dating System. What retard thought that up?

Loken 'dieing'.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Anfo said:


> Sisters of Battle. What is there purpose but to give Ordo Hereticus something to drool over.
> And what with the skintight armor?


They exist because by Imperial Decree the Ministorum can't have 'Men under Arms' so the Church obeys the letter, if not the spirit, of the law by having the Adepta Sororitas.
The armour is hardly skin tight, it's bulky power armour it just so happens that it's not as bulky as Astartes power armour.



Anfo said:


> Rouge traders. They can just make marines go with them to explore new worlds. How does that work?
> "Hollo there...Mr. Ultramarine, you are comming with me now. Along with you Sr. Space Wolf. What was that? You want to serve your chapter and primarch? Tough shit, I'm your primarch, and the guy next to you is your chapter."


Except Rogue Traders can't make Astartes come with them, some Traders might have ancient pacts and binding oaths with certain Chapters but they have no authority over the Adeptus Astartes.



Anfo said:


> The Imperial Dating System. What retard thought that up?


You mean the Galactic standard dating system? Makes a great deal of sense.
A Terran standard year will be split into 1,000 equal segments, then you have the century and year followed finally by the millennium.
Example: 989997.M41- would be the 989th 'day' of the 997th year of the 41st millennium.




Anfo said:


> Loken 'dieing'.


What are you annoyed about, that he seemed to die or that he didn't actually die?
I don't understand, after all in the grand scheme of things he's not an important character.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The entire DOW2 novel. The first omnibus was shit but at least Goto didn't kill of characters that were supposed to appear in the fucking expansion. Or change nearly the entire storyline for that matter.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

I hate the fluff of Space Marines bowing down to the Ultramarines. It just feels lame, like GW was tring to justify using the UMs as their poster boys.

I'm also not a fan of the fluff behind Chaos itself, it doesn't feel right. We have aspects missing, gods who should be stronger aren't, and why there is no positive warp beings.

Given how much everything in the universe changes over time, one would think that Tzeentch is the strongest god by far, yet he is not. Everytime an artisan creates something or someone feels pleasure Slaanesh gets stronger.

Why wouldn't Tzeentch, who also covers the aspect of Hope, have beings that can affect things in a positive way. Everything that he covers is mostly netural in aspect, yet he only seems to do evil things.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

*picks up anything DOW fluff related or that nods to DOW* burn this


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> We have aspects missing


Like?



Wusword77 said:


> gods who should be stronger aren't


Which?



Wusword77 said:


> and why there is no positive warp beings.


I think that's acting under the misapprehension that there are such things as 'positive' and 'negative' emotions.



Wusword77 said:


> Given how much everything in the universe changes over time, one would think that Tzeentch is the strongest god by far, yet he is not.


Tzeentch was once said to 'rule over all creation' and is at intervals going to be the most powerful and influential chaos god, as every one of the Four.



Wusword77 said:


> Why wouldn't Tzeentch, who also covers the aspect of Hope, have beings that can affect things in a positive way. Everything that he covers is mostly netural in aspect, yet he only seems to do evil things.


Again, your thinking of 'positive' from a social human perspective. That doesn't make it universal. Tzeentch as an entity acts solely to achieve wild and flippant change, as that is what his respective emotion represents pushed to it's extremes. I don't see how that makes it universally 'evil'.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Following the morality of "right" or "wrong" does not apply in the warp. To the gods doing "right" and "wrong" has no meaning since that is only applied to something with a conscience, which the gods being warp entities lack since they are not human, but merely the raw emotion that created them. Take Khorne for example, he only knows a couple things and that is War, death, and anger. He has no concept of good or evil for there is no such thing to him. Good and evil is just a perspective of whether something is just or unjust and since morality does not apply to beings who are unaware of moral law, what makes you think they would follow human logic or morality?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> The entire DOW2 novel. The first omnibus was shit but at least Goto didn't kill of characters that were supposed to appear in the fucking expansion. Or change nearly the entire storyline for that matter.


It is a tenuous line at best whether to take DoW as canon. If anything, I would back the novels over the game, since they are actual BL publications. 

Still, they aren`t the best books out there. I only really liked _Tempest._



Wusword77 said:


> I hate the fluff of Space Marines bowing down to the Ultramarines. It just feels lame, like GW was tring to justify using the UMs as their poster boys.
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the fluff behind Chaos itself, it doesn't feel right. We have aspects missing, gods who should be stronger aren't, and why there is no positive warp beings.
> 
> ...


UM epitomise the codex. _We_ know better, but the denizens of the Imperium revere them for the heroes they appear to be.

And your problem with the rest seems to be based on the idea that Chaos is evil. But I see CotE sorted that out.  




My dislike? Is not so much with fluff, but rather lack of...

We are Necrons. We`re older than you. We`re more deadly than anything else in existence. We hate everything. Fuck you.

Seriously, a little expansion would be nice. 

I`m trying, but I`d like to see something _official._ :laugh:


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Any Ork fluff that's meant to be funny.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> It is a tenuous line at best whether to take DoW as canon. If anything, I would back the novels over the game, since they are actual BL publications.


Whether it's more canon than the games or not, it still sucked monkey ass. _Tempest_ was the best one for me as well, probably because there was less for Gotto to fuck around with. I'm still laughing at the marine-in-a-month technique though.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> Any Ork fluff that's meant to be funny.


What? how can you hate funny ork quotes?? 

As for the whole good/evil thing. If it was actually Chaos then it wouldn't be that all daemons enjoy ripping into the material world and killing things. I can see certain aspects of each god wanting to kill, as in nurgle's plaugues, slaanesh's need to experience it, Khorne's need to murder and war, and tzeentch's need to change things even into abominations. But you never see in fluff what would balance out that so called "chaos" or the things that would reflect the things above, Ie: Khorne having war meetings instead of just plain old slaughtering; Slaanesh feeling love and caring for living things instead of just twisting everything beyond reason; nurgle curing his plagues as well as casing them; and tzeentch changing unpleasant things into pleasant.

of course this is a war game, so I really don't care, but if they were fleshed out properly then this so called "chaos" would reflect all aspects and not just the (by human perspective) "evil ones".

Also I hate how there is no background info on nids in the dex, where they came from ect... It always just shows it from the Imperium of Man's perspective, and never shows more than what they know which is really annoying (necrons too). Races like tau and orks etc... have there own civilization so you can take things from there point of view so you get a more in depth look. Nids have feelings too...


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

I remember when Tau first came out, and I read thier codex, I had an instant, complete and utter hatred for them and thier Greater good, it was so bad, If I was allied with a Tau player in a non-competitive game, I would start shooting my own ally with my guardsmen.

ohh..... I hated tau and thier whole BS feel good storyline of BS.... though I hear it isn't like that anymore.... I still really hated that fluff.... and I still hate the army.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

As there is no sense of time in the warp, i.e. the cause-event-effect timeline does not hold true and the effect of an event can come before the cause. This is used to say that slaneesh has always existed, but has also never existed. (Chaos Daemons codex)

To me this is a stupid and lazy way of trying to explain away the influance and stories of the warp, like the "birth of Slaanesh" 

I like the idea of the nid's quotes, but what would they say???


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

oblivion8 said:


> What? how can you hate funny ork quotes?


They're not funny, they're just insultingly lame.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> Given how much everything in the universe changes over time, one would think that Tzeentch is the strongest god by far, yet he is not. Everytime an artisan creates something or someone feels pleasure Slaanesh gets stronger.
> 
> Why wouldn't Tzeentch, who also covers the aspect of Hope, have beings that can affect things in a positive way. Everything that he covers is mostly netural in aspect, yet he only seems to do evil things.


Tzeentch was the most powerful Chaos God by far with his Staff of Magical Bullshit ™ . The other God tried ganging up on him to obtain the Staff of Magical Bullshit ™ so he smashed into a million shards over the mortal realm, each different spell in the mortal realm is a shard of the Staff of Magical Bullshit ™. Thus Tzeentch appeased the other chaos gods who decided not to gang up on him any more.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

1) DoM taking over an entire Craftworld (seeing as he isn't synapse or overly powerful).

2) Tyranid almost taking over a craftworld, but falling back because of ONE dead hive tyrant. For shame...


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

actually, the background that most annoys me is actaully more of a lack of background.

i get the Necrontyr and the Necrons, but what i don't get is the C'tan. if they are so powerful that they managed to trick the Necrontyr into siding with them, what is it that they do? and how do they do it without using the warp or handwavium?

they die pretty easily and don't bring much to the battlefield, and yet are refered to as 'gods'!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

admiraldick said:


> they die pretty easily and don't bring much to the battlefield, and yet are refered to as 'gods'!


Other than by the hand of another C'tan list the ways in which one of the Star 'Gods' has been slain, because I can't think of one.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I agree with CotE, Space Marines just sounds a bit...well gay I guess; doesn't make me think of invincible warriors...Astartes on the other hand sounds awesome!

Marneus Calgar beating an Avatar was a bit of a stretch for me. Doesn't seem right that a mortal man could defeat a god...

There was something that _really_ annoyed me, but I can't remember at the moment; will edit if I do remember.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> I agree with CotE, Space Marines just sounds a bit...well gay I guess; doesn't make me think of invincible warriors...Astartes on the other hand sounds awesome!
> 
> Marneus Calgar beating an Avatar was a bit of a stretch for me. Doesn't seem right that a mortal man could defeat a god...
> 
> There was something that _really_ annoyed me, but I can't remember at the moment; will edit if I do remember.


But in actuality the term Astartes is more feminine than Space Marine, it derives from the Greek name for a Goddess of sexuality, fertility, and war.

Well an Avatar isn't a God is it? It's the merest speck of a God's form- an Avatar strangely enough, it's no more unbelievable than Dante defeating a Bloodthirster or a Grey Knight Captain Angron...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> There was no way he could've *not* seen it coming, which leads one to believe perhaps the whole thing was intended.


I disagree, i don't believe anyone could have possibly seen the heresy coming, especially at the scale it did. Horus was the brightest star, the most beloved of his children and one of the few he really bonded with. And in the end he was only brought down because of the an immense amount of manipulation, planning, sorcery and deception. Magnus fucked up all by himself, although the Emperor could have been more tactful i supose. How could he have known Fulgrim would become corrupted by a random deamon weapon. Alpharius and Omegon only 'turned' because of what happened to Horus and the events being set in motion already. Lorgars fall was orchestrated from the moment he was taken from Terra along with the others.

Yea he sucked as a dad, but theres no way he could have seen 9 wole legions turning on him at once.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> But in actuality the term Astartes is more feminine than Space Marine, it derives from the Greek name for a Goddess of sexuality, fertility, and war.


Even so, it sounds cooler and more bad-arse lol



Baron Spikey said:


> Well an Avatar isn't a God is it? It's the merest speck of a God's form- an Avatar strangely enough, it's no more unbelievable than Dante defeating a Bloodthirster or a Grey Knight Captain Angron...


Ok, fair point...I have never actually heard of Dante defeating a bloodthirster...but that does seem a bit much seeing as if I remeber right Sanguineous struggled against that Bloodthirster...Kor'brand or something like that.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> Ok, fair point...I have never actually heard of Dante defeating a bloodthirster...but that does seem a bit much seeing as if I remeber right Sanguineous struggled against that Bloodthirster...Kor'brand or something like that.


Ka'Bandha, one of the most powerful of Khorne's Bloodthirsters (though still not as powerful as Skarbrand, or An'ggrath who replaced Skarbrand when he was exiled to take his position as Guardian of the Throne of Skulls), obviously the Bloodthirster defeated by Dante was one of the lesser Daemon Lords- of course compared to most mortals even the weakest Bloodthirster is an unimaginably powerful foe.

Woe betide Sanguinus if he'd fought either of Khorne's 2 most powerful servants- Doombreed, Lord of the Daemon Princes or An'ggrath, Lord of the Bloodthirsters.

Edit: Just re-checked the BA Codex, apparently Dante faced Skarbrand- ok that's more ridiculous that Calgar defeating an Avatar!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yea he sucked as a dad


I think that is where the misconception begins. By using terms such as 'father' we automatically imagine a caring, protective individual - but that is not accurate at all.

The Primarchs were not the Emperor's 'sons' in the emotional sense as we use the term. They were his creations, created with the sole intention of mindlessly serving his dreams and aspirations, ultimately to conquer the galaxy for him. The Emperor was not obliged to act as a father figure, that was never his intention - to forge for himself sons in the conventional sense of the word. He wanted servants, not children. 

That's not to say he didn't form some sort of emotional connections with several of the Primarchs though, Horus and Magnus spring to mind as examples. But the common mistake I find that people make (not necessarily directed at you _Angel of Blood_) is that they think of the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons, which is associated with several emotional connections which simply weren't present.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It also doesn't say Dante defeated him, just that that's the story and Dante isn't correcting anyone.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> get the Necrontyr and the Necrons, but what i don't get is the C'tan. if they are so powerful that they managed to trick the Necrontyr into siding with them, what is it that they do? and how do they do it without using the warp or handwavium?
> 
> they die pretty easily and don't bring much to the battlefield, and yet are refereed to as 'gods'!


The Ctan are able to manipulate our reality and create things from scratch.
The ctan can not be killed, unless it is by another ctan. What happens when they are "killed" by something else is they lose their "shell" and can not maintain their form. So they have to reform the "shell".



Angel of Blood said:


> Yea he sucked as a dad, but theres no way he could have seen 9 whole legions turning on him at once.


The sad truth is my removed uncle is a worse parent than the emp, thus why he's removed. Considering he was the 1st parent to 18 demi gods, having missplaced 2, he did a pretty good job.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Space Marines 1000 Men to a Chapter.

Bullshit.

Who drives the vehicles? Space Marines.

Who fights in the armour? Space Marines.

Who pilots the Thunderhawks? Space Marines.

Who Commands the Fleet? Space Marines?

Who defends the Fleet Commanders? Space Marines?

If we take a look at the Command Structure of the Space Marine Chapter, we see 10 Captains, with their Command Squads = that's 60 Men. Then there's the Chaplains attached to each Chapter - 70. The Chapter Master and his Honour Guard - 81. The Librarium and then there's the Apothecarian - it often states that each strike force is assisted by the around 3 or so of each - so if we take that literally that there's 3 of each to each company - or a further 60 - giving 140 Marines.

Then you have the Battle Companies - which at full strength often take many more marines as well to replace the casualties - so say 150 in each - giving us 600 in 4 Companies. The First Company is a further 100 - that's 841 I'm counting.

Then, add in the vehicles - say there's 10 Rhino's to each company, for the 1st through 5th, that's 50 Rhino's, and each is controlled by a single Marine - that's 50 - bringing us to 891, or 109 places left for 5 more companies, and the entire fleet.

___________

Codex Astartes

Every single Chapter follows the Codex Astartes completely, apart from the following (name every Chapter GW make, excluding the boys in blue). There is one exception - the Ultra's, who follow the Astartes to the letter. Apart from the following occasions (list every battle describing the Ultramarines actions). 

Utter shite.

And no knob head has a playbook which doesn't get changed, modified or improvised upon. You don't need a degree or history in military tactics to understand why.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Ka'Bandha, one of the most powerful of Khorne's Bloodthirsters (though still not as powerful as Skarbrand, or An'ggrath who replaced Skarbrand when he was exiled to take his position as Guardian of the Throne of Skulls), obviously the Bloodthirster defeated by Dante was one of the lesser Daemon Lords- of course compared to most mortals even the weakest Bloodthirster is an unimaginably powerful foe.
> 
> Woe betide Sanguinus if he'd fought either of Khorne's 2 most powerful servants- Doombreed, Lord of the Daemon Princes or An'ggrath, Lord of the Bloodthirsters.
> 
> Edit: Just re-checked the BA Codex, apparently Dante faced Skarbrand- ok that's more ridiculous that Calgar defeating an Avatar!


In fairness the fight may never have happened, Dante won't confirm or deny it either way, it even suggests that the stories are exaggerated such as that one and might annoy him, but he keeps it alive for the sake of the Imperium needing heroes to look to.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Space Marines 1000 Men to a Chapter.
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> ...


Second both these points. Too add to the 1000 you also have the ones who are guarding the fotress monastaries aswell i assume, the number on loan to the deathwatch,

And in regard to the codex, chapters like the Raven Guard, said to follow the astartes and stick by it, yet you have Shrike and numerous others who operate well outside of the codex, individual captains are given independence to a much higer degree than normal etc etc. Then the Blood Angels are also said to strictly follow the codex, yet they have all these specialised units, different variants to other chapters, often use unorthodox tactics.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> Codex Astartes
> 
> Every single Chapter follows the Codex Astartes completely, apart from the following (name every Chapter GW make, excluding the boys in blue). There is one exception - the Ultra's, who follow the Astartes to the letter. Apart from the following occasions (list every battle describing the Ultramarines actions).


lol i can just imagine that being the opening for the description of the dex on the GW site :laugh:


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Just out of curiousity, do the scouts count towards the 1000 tally?

If not they could be pilots, guards etc, also don't the Astartes use the equivilent of slaves to do alot of their work? People who were promising but couldn't become full marines, so they are rewarded by being able to clean the bolters, drive the tanks etc, kind of like in Soul Hunter?

The Fluff I can't stand is people's interpretation of what Slannesh is about ..... 'Porn for the porn God!' ..... how clever. 

In fact people have over simplified the Chaos God's far too much IMO and people also exaggerate their unwillingness to work together.

So people say that an Emperor's Children Champion and a World Eater's Champion would enter a room and just start brawling, and it's pathetic to be honest. They may have a hightened anomosity due to their conflicting natures, but they don't just tear into each other on a whim, and neither does pure Chaos either. They strategize and plot, Slaanesh would work with Khorne to beat Tzeentch, each hoping they are the ones that get the advantage. But they can still work together lol.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Bit of nitpicking, but the Officio Assassinorum requiring approval from the High Lords of Terra for every assassination. It just makes so little sense to me. The Imperium is so vast and entire systems are forgotten in its massive bureaucracy, I find it hard to believe that the Assassins can operate effectively in lets say the Eastern Fringe if the Senate has to approve all their targets.

Also the general fluff and lore that has made Chaos, the "arch-enemy of man", into a bunch of pirate raiders or a localized threat. They should be the all-encompassing threat to the Imperium itself that the Tyranids, Necrons, or even Orks pose.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Then you have the Battle Companies - which at full strength often take many more marines as well to replace the casualties - so say 150 in each - giving us 600 in 4 Companies. The First Company is a further 100 - that's 841 I'm counting.


Actually more often than not Companies are under strength as protacted combat depletes their numbers quicker than they can replenish them. Yes there are actually more than 1,000 marines in a Chapter if it's at full strength, but the Company structure equates to 1,000 Marines in a very general manner and that is where the 'limit' comes from.

Essentially as long as a Chapter doesn't go over the 100 Astartes (excluding specialists and command staff) per Company they're obeying the Codex.



Vaz said:


> Codex Astartes
> 
> Every single Chapter follows the Codex Astartes completely, apart from the following (name every Chapter GW make, excluding the boys in blue). There is one exception - the Ultra's, who follow the Astartes to the letter. Apart from the following occasions (list every battle describing the Ultramarines actions).
> 
> And no knob head has a playbook which doesn't get changed, modified or improvised upon. You don't need a degree or history in military tactics to understand why.


The Imperial Fists follow the Codex only slightly less religiously than the Ultramarines themselves...

There seems to be a general misunderstanding of the size of the Codex, it's so vast that even Marines with their incredible, near photographic memories, can't remember it all- generally a company will have each marine memorise part so when the entire full-strength company is assembled they'll have the collective works of the Codex available to memory alone.

The Codex Astartes is remarkable, it isn't just the collected musings and dictations of Guilliman but rather every single successful and incompetent commander, treaties by all the Primarchs (including the Traitor Primarchs, most notably Perturabo's views and experiences with siege craft) with multiple examples of each and every tactic and strategy presented.
And yes over the millennia it will get added to, though never lightly or without serious debate by Chapters such as the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, resulting in each Chapter's 'playbook' being subtly different to any other Chapter- but with the core text exactly the same.


Angel of Blood said:


> Second both these points. Too add to the 1000 you also have the ones who are guarding the fotress monastaries aswell i assume, the number on loan to the deathwatch,


The forces guarding the homeworld/fortress monastary will usually be drawn from one of the Companies, rotating their duties throughout all the Chapter's companies, and the numbers of marines on loan to the Deathwatch at any one time will be limited- possibly a dozen at most at any one time.



Angel of Blood said:


> And in regard to the codex, chapters like the Raven Guard, said to follow the astartes and stick by it, yet you have Shrike and numerous others who operate well outside of the codex, individual captains are given independence to a much higer degree than normal etc etc. Then the Blood Angels are also said to strictly follow the codex, yet they have all these specialised units, different variants to other chapters, often use unorthodox tactics.


They do stick to the Codex, possibly they follow the teachings of Corax which are included within the Codex. The Blood Angels are not strict adherents, they follow the Codex as much as their flaws enable them, but like the Dark Angels they're considered a divergent Chapter.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

If I was being obvious I would say any space marine fluff since all they do is win in dire circumstances. Are they unable to just come down, kick either Abaddon and his Black Legion, Ghazakull and his orks or Alex Ferguson and Man United without breaking a sweat?

Being more serious I have never been fully persuaded on how the Chaos marines stay involved in a war against the imperium when they have far less on resources. Saying they have huge legion numbers, time moves differently and Fabius Bile cutting deals with every legion every so often never really cut it for me. Or am I the only one?


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Just out of curiousity, do the scouts count towards the 1000 tally?
> 
> If not they could be pilots, guards etc, also don't the Astartes use the equivilent of slaves to do alot of their work? People who were promising but couldn't become full marines, so they are rewarded by being able to clean the bolters, drive the tanks etc, kind of like in Soul Hunter?
> 
> ...


Don't forget my first post, anyone else agree?



Stephen_Newman said:


> Being more serious I have never been fully persuaded on how the Chaos marines stay involved in a war against the imperium when they have far less on resources. Saying they have huge legion numbers, time moves differently and Fabius Bile cutting deals with every legion every so often never really cut it for me. Or am I the only one?


That's actually a great point. Here's something I came up with that I wanted an opinion on. 

Could there be functioning planets in the eye of Terror? For example, could there be a Feudal world with Kings, Queens, Princes etc and different kingdoms that are used by Chaos Space Marines as recruiting worlds, similar to the loyalist Astarte?

The Chaos Astartes, expect tithes of possible recruits in return for protection from roving Warbands and mutants/xenos etc. Then turn up, say, every hundred years and demand 10,000 of the worlds finest specimens for Fabius to turn into Astartes. 

The reason I'm asking is I want to write a story about such a ..... well story ... but is that kind of thing possible in the Eye or Maelstrom?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's well known I dislike the way Rogal Dorn supposedly died.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> The reason I'm asking is I want to write a story about such a ..... well story ... but is that kind of thing possible in the Eye or Maelstrom?


They're areas of space where the Warp and the Material universe overlap, where gods reshape planets on a whim. They're realms of utter insanity. So I'd say the skies the limit.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I know Mortarion reshaped his daemon world so that it looked exactly Barbarus but the death guard terrorised the local populace.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Edit: Just re-checked the BA Codex, apparently Dante faced Skarbrand- ok that's more ridiculous that Calgar defeating an Avatar!


Baron, we have been over this a hundred times... Dante killing Skarbrand is complete logical and reasonable. Calgar defeating an Avatar on the other hand... is quite ridiculous, stupid and illogical.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Both accounts are hardly reasonable and less logical. Dante and Calgar sure are super awesome, but against the terrors of the warp? The Avatar is Khaine incarnate and he went head to head with Slannesh himself in combat in his prime, so it begs to reason how Calgar could battle The God of War and win? Khaine's martial prowess is genius yet he lost to a simple fluke like that which is hardly believable and absurd. another one of GW's logical let downs. and Dante beating the Bloodthirster who put a dent in Khorne's armour is really unbelievable also. Really a Bloodthirster is also a combat beast and has a the martial prowess to make him nigh unbeatable and the strength. Makes me mad how GW makes the leaders of the Daemon armies almost easy to kill and replaceable as my toilet paper in my bathroom. Lol 

Also the fluff about Dorn dying is laughable too. He didnt even get a fancy ending like dying holding off a horde of chaos or fighting a Hive Tyrant head on and ripping its head off.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah.... avatar is something like a GD; he isn't the actual god. If he was it would never be stopped. Calgar got a lucky hit in.... maybe Dante did as well. Not beyond the realm of possibility.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Even part of a god is still more then any man, human or alien can match up too. It was a feat in the realm of impossibility.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Even part of a god is still more then any man, human or alien can match up too. It was a feat in the realm of impossibility.


A marine chapter master, especially these two, are some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy and are equipped with weapons of ancient power. The only reason Calgar won only because of the gauntlets of the ultramar. No clue what happened with Dante.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

My one patricular annoyance was the Emperor never:

1.) Killing Angron when he found him. Seriously ... guy is a murder-crazed psycopath with anger issues. Not only that, but he didn't really 'talk' to him, he just teleported him onboard the World Eaters ship and more or less said 'Yea ... he'll calm down in a bit'. That only ended in how many dying ...

2.) Why didn't he kill Lorgar ... I mean REALLY? Religious zeal, fanaticism, worshipping him the day they met. To me, with the Emperor knowing full well that the gods existed -- how could he have not seen Lorgar being a bit of a problem. Especially when he destroyed Monarchia. Really, you never thought Lorgar might have been more than a little bitter?

3.) Why didn't he kill Night Haunter. Pale, black-eyed, serial killer who brought a world to their knees with sick killings. His Legion was virtually transformed around that idea of psycological warfare. He obviously had warp-taint, which no doubt the Emperor could sense in some manner. 


And this leads me to my conspiracy theory. Everyone has that one thing they believe could have happened in Warhammer 40k that is more than likely a pipe dream full of a really good um .... purely legal herbs. And this is mine:

The Emperor knew. He knew his deal with the gods would backfire. He knew which of his sons would betray him (to an extent, I doubted he precieved Fulgrim as a traitor or Perturabo). I feel the Horus Heresy played out exactly as the Emperor wanted it. For one of two purposes:

A.) The Emperor actually does want to be a god. The worship of 500 trillion souls who believe its either him or eternal damnation to uncaring warp gods. All that faith, all those souls -- enduring and worshipping for 10,000 years. Imagine the imapct that would have on his soul in the warp.

B.) The Emperor has one more trick up his sleeve, something that no one predicted or could account for. Perhaps he knew his death would be nessecary to save Humanity. What that is, I cannot tell. Perhaps Ahriman is somehow saved, and manages to aid the Imperium, perhaps the 2nd and 11th suddenly return from the warp -- having never truly been 'lost', but rather having skipped in time, the primarchs return.


Again -- a pipedream, but dammit -- they're MY pipedreams.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> My one patricular annoyance was the Emperor never:
> 
> 1.) Killing Angron when he found him. Seriously ... guy is a murder-crazed psycopath with anger issues. Not only that, but he didn't really 'talk' to him, he just teleported him onboard the World Eaters ship and more or less said 'Yea ... he'll calm down in a bit'. That only ended in how many dying ...
> 
> ...


They were his sons.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

My dislike of Matt Ward's fluff is well known by now, and although I've made my peace with some sections, based on Ward's interview with Andy Hall, I can't help but worry and wonder what else he plans to write to further emphasize the Ultras' supposed godliness.

I mean, I'll accede to the Ultras being _good_, but Ward's writing style just screams fanboyism.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

locustgate said:


> They were his sons.


Sons that he never really got to know, nor ever really showed in interest in knowing. Beyond a select few: Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius -- he didn't show that much fatherly love.

Beyond that, this is the same man that, without shedding a tear or batting an eye, sent countless billions to their deaths in the Great Crusade. Had whole worlds destroyed for the slightest warp taint, permitted slavery (albeit not offically, the Word Bearers obviously had them), along with a string of other things.

I will concede fatherly love may have been his motivation for not killing them -- but his apparent task of racing to the edge of the galaxy, uniting humanity, and blocking them off from the Dark Gods would seem to me to need absolute brutality and certainty. 

In short -- his character would suggest he should have killed them without hesitation.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, because to admit they were less than perfect would be to admit that he was not prefect and that was something the emperor could not do.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> Perhaps Ahriman is somehow saved, and manages to aid the Imperium


Yeah, that's a pipe dream and it's gonna stay that way. I really don't think he wants any 'saving'. Ahriman feels nothing but contempt for the Imperium and is more focussed on gaining access to the Black Library and turning himself into some kind of god than aiding anyone else.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> They were his sons.


From earlier on in the thread, my take on it is that:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think that is where the misconception begins. By using terms such as 'father' we automatically imagine a caring, protective individual - but that is not accurate at all.
> 
> The Primarchs were not the Emperor's 'sons' in the emotional sense as we use the term. They were his creations, created with the sole intention of mindlessly serving his dreams and aspirations, ultimately to conquer the galaxy for him. The Emperor was not obliged to act as a father figure, that was never his intention - to forge for himself sons in the conventional sense of the word. He wanted servants, not children.
> 
> That's not to say he didn't form some sort of emotional connections with several of the Primarchs though, Horus and Magnus spring to mind as examples. But the common mistake I find that people make (not necessarily directed at you _Angel of Blood_) is that they think of the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons, which is associated with several emotional connections which simply weren't present.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

jfvz said:


> I like the idea of the nid's quotes, but what would they say???


Necrons never used to talk either, but we have a couple of quotes from them now... 

Still, nids are a different case. Until they start giving telepathic hate to other races in the form of words, I doubt we`ll be on much of a conversational level with them... 



admiraldick said:


> actually, the background that most annoys me is actaully more of a lack of background.
> 
> i get the Necrontyr and the Necrons, but what i don't get is the C'tan. if they are so powerful that they managed to trick the Necrontyr into siding with them, what is it that they do? and how do they do it without using the warp or handwavium?
> 
> they die pretty easily and don't bring much to the battlefield, and yet are refered to as 'gods'!


Bear in mind that the TT rules are woefully inadequate to represent the true scope of what the c`tan are capable of. 

These guys can destroy solar systems and bend reality to their will. They were the first sentient beings to ever exist, and they remain the most powerful. 



Stephen_Newman said:


> If I was being obvious I would say any space marine fluff since all they do is win in dire circumstances. Are they unable to just come down, kick either Abaddon and his Black Legion, Ghazakull and his orks or Alex Ferguson and Man United without breaking a sweat?
> 
> Being more serious I have never been fully persuaded on how the Chaos marines stay involved in a war against the imperium when they have far less on resources. Saying they have huge legion numbers, time moves differently and Fabius Bile cutting deals with every legion every so often never really cut it for me. Or am I the only one?





D-A-C said:


> That's actually a great point. Here's something I came up with that I wanted an opinion on.
> 
> Could there be functioning planets in the eye of Terror? For example, could there be a Feudal world with Kings, Queens, Princes etc and different kingdoms that are used by Chaos Space Marines as recruiting worlds, similar to the loyalist Astarte?
> 
> ...


I`m pretty sure there are functioning worlds in the eye of terror. Many of which would be daemon worlds and chaos astartes worlds, but it is possible that some civilisations in the area (perhaps not in the eye itself, but who knows) could survive, dependant on their resistance/compliance with the chaotic forces nearby. 

I think that area is a bit open for interpretation, so good luck with your fic. :good:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

BlackGuard said:


> In short -- his character would suggest he should have killed them without hesitation.


His character, to me, suggests he wouldn't have killed them- they were useful servants, especially Angron and Night Haunter. He created them to be Generals and Warriors with the will to conquer the Galaxy, not to be paragons of mental stability.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> His character, to me, suggests he wouldn't have killed them- they were useful servants, especially Angron and Night Haunter. He created them to be Generals and Warriors with the will to conquer the Galaxy, not to be paragons of mental stability.


I agree with this. The primarchs were created, and used by the emperor to conquer, destroy and inspire. I dont think he 'loved' them as our fathers love us, but i think he had his favourites, as any general would have favourite captains.


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

not sure if it counts as fluff but something that bothers me is an illustration of ghazghull charging a line of guardsmen. in the backround there's a warlord titan. can't someone politely ask the titan to evaporate the bugger?


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I really dislike how an Iron Warriors fortress world in the 'Nids codex were invaded and despite them being one of the best marine siegemasters in both attack and defence with hundreds of defilers as well as many defence networks at their disposal, didn't have any type of underground defence and that a couple of trygons + raveners won the day for the Tyranids....

Oh that and most of the bloody Blood Angels Codex, that book is dripping with WTF sauce.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Second best in defense, the best were are the IF.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Second best in defense, the best were are the IF.


No proof that either was better than the other in terms of siege craft- the IF made an admirable job of fortifying the Imperial Palace against the IW, but the same could be said for Perturabo's warriors in the Iron Cage.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Iron warriors seemed more creative than the Imperial fists, based on the Iron Cage and the Imperial Fortress.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

why cant mephiston and alike be the infused with the emperors power just like the demons are powered by the chaos gods?

their are planets in the eye of terror making ships and weapons etc, remember half the tech heads went with chaos to the eye


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Baron- i think the best example is the Planet of Steel if we are referring to the Iron Warriors abilities to fortify a planet to a extent were it is really nigh unbreakable.

Hellado- Demons come from the Gods and are the gods at a lesser form and power level. Mephiston doesnt derive his power from the emperor nor is he made of the emperor directly.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

yeah well he should be


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

The Imperial Fist's colour scheme. They have a cool name and awesome chapter symbol, but it all fails miserably because of the yellow.

I mean, really? You are supposed to be personification of the Emperor's wrath and strike fear in the hearts of the enemy. Yellow is the last colour I would expect to do either of those things. And pink.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yellow is the color of royalty, as is purple. They were suppose to be the emperors personal guards, not counting his actual personal guards, so that could explain the yellow color.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I was reading a Space Marine book. I think it was Battle for Armegeddon? Anyway, it's based upon a BT (I think?) Apothecary's point of view. He's at the tail end of a battle and he's about to tend to a wounded Space Marine. Apparently, however, this Space Marine has taken a shot to his...leg. And is beyond saving. So the apothecary takes his gene seed which then kills him.

I was astonished by this. The Space Marine should have been able to saw off his wounded leg, beat the encroaching Orks with it to death, and then hopped back to a medical station to get a bionic leg. Or perhaps just have the leg sewn back on and be back in the fight after a couple weeks.

Not a universe changing piece of fluff, but an annoying one nonetheless.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm geting sick of the Space Marines being invicible. loosing five men and killing a thousand chaos marines. The Chaos Marines are the most glaringly obvious example as they should be evenly matched not hoplessly outclassed despite years of experience.

It also seems like they never loose a fight. Helsreach at least showed the casualties pilling up and even mentions the death of another chapter. No chapter ever seems to recall a retreat, let alone the death of another chapter.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> I'm geting sick of the Space Marines being invicible. loosing five men and killing a thousand chaos marines. The Chaos Marines are the most glaringly obvious example as they should be evenly matched not hoplessly outclassed despite years of experience.
> 
> It also seems like they never loose a fight. Helsreach at least showed the casualties pilling up and even mentions the death of another chapter. No chapter ever seems to recall a retreat, let alone the death of another chapter.


I don't recall that happening too often. Just thinking off the top of my head, Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors gave better than they got. In particular the scene where *cough cough* is fighting in the tunnel in termie armor.

The Drop Site Massacre was pretty even up to the massacre portion of it. In Iron Snakes it's pretty even-steven in straight up fights (though I was sorta curious how they could fight hundreds to Dark Eldar and win). 

In the first book of the Space Wolf series they had a squad of Space Marines tear up a Blood Claw pack with ease.

The only real time the Space Marines took out their Chaos counterparts (relatively) was on Istvaan with Loken at the helm.

It's those Imperial Guardsmen taking out Chaos Space marines that you have to worry about .


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Yeah, like in the Gaunts ghosts series were 5 chaos space marines died and not a single of gaunts guys died. Sure the book clarified this by saying it they were "extremely lucky" to be alive, but it still bugs me. Also when the berserkers attacked a artillery group they all got ripped apart before they could do any significant damage. Also another example would be in Storm of Iron when 100 imperial fists and IG held off a massive Iron warriors invasion force. There is also a another story that bugs me and thats in the SM codex which screams SM fanboy. The story was about the Raven Guard and White Scars teaming up to kill the Alpha legion space marines who were being led by a Daemon prince. What really ticked me off was that the Alpha legion in the story were not portrayed correctly and acted as they were idiots or something when the Alpha Legion is actually one of the best traitor legions around and in the story did nothing but squat.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

"one of the best traitor legions" what does that mean? I dont get it. 

I hate people bitching about space marines never losing. They only enter fights they can win. Usually.

How many marines are there? Around 100 000 in TOTAL? Of course they cant be losing all the time. there wouldnt be any fucking marines left. 

I dont hate any fluff, what a lot of people seem to forget is that the "fluff" is written by many differant authors, from many differant times, when ideas in circulation are different.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> . Also another example would be in Storm of Iron when 100 imperial fists and IG held off a massive Iron warriors invasion force.


Well to be fair they were in a fortress that was given the seal of approval by the IW or IF primarch. They did die at the end.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

When GW write fluff that is completely fucking contradictory.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah it does seem CSM are wearing cardboard armor these days, at least when it comes to game fluff at least, also the whole argument that their is so few they have to be bad ass is so stupid it makes me want to throw up. Do you know how many original plague marines or rubrics there are...not bloody many, and yet unless the book comes from IA you will see everyone from nids to eldar kill at least a hand full of CSM before a single one of the good guys/bad guys drop (Cultists yes, but 1000 year old combat veterans...no).


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## Zhou The Maladjusted (Nov 25, 2010)

I hate how Imperial Officials ALWAYS ruin EVERYTHING for their side. I don't know how the Imperium ever manages to win at all. I don't mean when Chaos is involved, I mean when they, out of their own free will, betray each other.

They stab each other in the back so much, it's amazing I still find it surprising Cardinal So-and-So is plotting with General I'm-a-Jerk to oust Adeptus Seniorus Mechanical-Name during the massive invasion of their planet.

It's not so much surprise anymore. Sort of like anticipation..."Yeah. I bet this is the guy. Probably working with that guy. Gonna kill that guy."


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> (Cultists yes, but 1000 year old combat veterans...no).


To be honest, a 1000 or more years of veteran combating isn't going to help when twenty hormagants jump on you, or when a carnifex hits your unit in the flank. Are they strong, yes, are they skilled, yes, but they're toughness can only reach a certain amount, and will never be able to withstand a 1 tonn+ creature tearing through your squad. That goes for space marines too though.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This dickhead Harker claiming to have single handedly killed a ravener with his bare hands. I call bullshit.

It was probably just a ripper.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> This dickhead Harker claiming to have single handedly killed a ravener with his bare hands. I call bullshit.
> 
> It was probably just a ripper.


I concur! :grin:


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> This dickhead Harker claiming to have single handedly killed a ravener with his bare hands. I call bullshit.
> 
> It was probably just a ripper.


lol ya, especially considering that a ravener at full height is like 9+ feet tall, lol its like saying a guy killed a grizly bear with his bare hands :laugh:

EDIT: thinking on how big they are, how are raveners NOT like T5 or something??


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

oblivion8 said:


> lol ya, especially considering that a ravener at full height is like 9+ feet tall, lol its like saying a guy killed a grizly bear with his bare hands :laugh:
> 
> EDIT: thinking on how big they are, how are raveners NOT like T5 or something??


I would say more like a man saying he killed an elephant with his bear hands


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

oblivion8 said:


> lol ya, especially considering that a ravener at full height is like 9+ feet tall, lol its like saying a guy killed a grizly bear with his bare hands :laugh:
> 
> EDIT: thinking on how big they are, how are raveners NOT like T5 or something??


Raveners are not designed for resilience, they are designed for agility. A fast charge and a flurry of attacks that do big damage, but they are boned if something hard enough to survive them gets to strike back. 

Like a squad of Plague Marines... :aggressive:


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> Like a squad of Plague Marines...


ya except we are talking about one plague marine, and it would probably be so damned slow that it loses all its limbs before it could attack back :laugh:


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't recall that happening too often. Just thinking off the top of my head, Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors gave better than they got. In particular the scene where *cough cough* is fighting in the tunnel in termie armor.
> 
> The Drop Site Massacre was pretty even up to the massacre portion of it. In Iron Snakes it's pretty even-steven in straight up fights (though I was sorta curious how they could fight hundreds to Dark Eldar and win).
> 
> ...


Well Battle for the Abbys has 1000 Chaos Marines and a Drednought beaten by no more than forty marines, Titanicus had a Warhound beating a Warlord, over fifty Chaos Titans destroyed in one engadement, 

The Chapters Due had a single squad holding off against legions of Chaos Marines, killing at least triple their number by my count. Not forgetting the Bezerkers who were mostly wihtout power armour and weapons and all 100 of them were killed in a bombardment. 

And as for Forrix in the tunnel,he is in Terminator armour, and a captain. If he were a Space Marine that would have been A OK with most CM players that feel the same way as I do. Impreganble armour, captaincy and being a main charcter entitles you to more than about five marines.

Don't get me started on the terminators killed in the Blood Angels, the Battle barge destroyed and the one on one fight where the CM was shown to be an inexperienced arrogaunt idiot.



Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I hate people bitching about space marines never losing. They only enter fights they can win. Usually.
> 
> How many marines are there? Around 100 000 in TOTAL? Of course they cant be losing all the time. there wouldnt be any fucking marines left.


Well, the Ultramarines had 250,000 on their own, plus the subsequent chapters in the foundings would have added more. By all rights, there are far more Marines than Chaos Marines and thats a very flawed argument. 

They come where they're needed, its not as if they abstain from all fights that are a bit too tough for them. Even then, what about the fights where its a trap and they either miraculously escape or take out dozens with them.

Also having a small amount of marines in the galaxy doesn't make your power armour more reilient, nor your brothers better in combat, or your blade and bolts any better at getting through power armour.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

And clearly marines do lose, otherwise we would still have no chapters that have been destroyed or suffered irrecovable loses...


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## Broadsword 1986 (Nov 17, 2010)

One thing that really seemed BS was the shortstory The Relic by Jonathan Green.
He has a Black Templar force finding a Crimson fist Venerable dread trapped in glacier. The story then tells that this venerable was lost in a huge explosion which made him sink in the glacier only to be recovered by the templars because they homed in on his energy signal some 50+ years later.
Come on, the Crimson Fists have a tough enough time already with their chapter being almost wiped out. Any chapter will go to great lengths to recover even a fallen dread and here you're supposed to believe they just forgot about a Venerable since he became an icecone?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't get Harker either. Space Marines with all their servos and ceramite plates have to stand still and brace to fire it. A human, wearing a vest and combat pants, can carry it over one shoulder. WTF?

Midnight


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> Well Battle for the Abbys has 1000 Chaos Marines and a Drednought beaten by no more than forty marines, Titanicus had a Warhound beating a Warlord, over fifty Chaos Titans destroyed in one engadement,
> 
> The Chapters Due had a single squad holding off against legions of Chaos Marines, killing at least triple their number by my count. Not forgetting the Bezerkers who were mostly wihtout power armour and weapons and all 100 of them were killed in a bombardment.
> 
> ...


Battle for the Abyss had the loyalist Space Marines more or less overwhelmed by the Word Bearer's squads. If I recall, the Space Wolves and World Eater contingents suffered particularly hard. And they won in the end mainly through luck and indomitable spirits.

As for the rest, both sides have won overwhelming victories. Look to the CSM codex. They have Space Wolves throwing down their weapons and surrendering. Can you believe that? The bloody sons of Fenris giving up with the odds against them and turning to Chaos?

And the entire loss of the Emperor's Swords by the Thousand Sons, too.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I was meaning from a perpective of writing fluff. The foes of the space marines are endless, the battles without count. If they were losing even half their fights, there wouldnt even be any marines left to continue writing fluff about.

Im aware it seems a little unfair and biased marines never lose. but it makes sense from a standpoint of writing fluff.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

I can't for the life of me, stand to think about comissar Yarrick fighting mano-a-mano against Ghazghkull.. Any person below a Space Marine should be cannon fodder under such circumstances, and not be given a plot-shield. Very powerful inquisitors are exempt as well.

Don't get me started on Ghaunt's Ghosts... There's enough dangers out there already, so if you aren't a 7 ft tall giant in powered armor, you're not gonna cut it without strenght in numbers.


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## Mike Noble (Oct 11, 2010)

Probably the part about Orks using their weapons by thinking they should work. That was a theory made by a human because he couldn't understand the Orks technology, and is completely non factual, and yet everyone thinks it is canon.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Idk if this was already said (I didn;t look through all 10 pages of this thread), but what about the Calger vs Avatar thing?

Clearly the Avatar shoulda coulda woulda won, after all if you read the avatar only takes 3 wounds, and thats if you count every single hit scored on him by Calgar as the Avatar failing his invuln (how you fail 3 4++ saves in a row I'll never know). Avatar would have attacked back with 5 attacks, hitting on I think 3's and wounding on 3's if not 2's. 

My main point is that it would not have been such a blowout as portrayed in the codex.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I can't think of any official fluff.
The one thing I hate most is when people say that the Tau Etherials were made by the eldar and then say there is proof.


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

hailene said:


> And the entire loss of the Emperor's Swords by the Thousand Sons, too.


It wasnt the Thousand Sons but the Alpha legion that brought the total destruction of the Emperors Swords chapter, in which they spent centuries manipulating the populace of the Emperors Swords homeworld from where they drew their recruits, planting subconscious triggers into them before they were chosen to become astartes. Then when they eventually attacked the chapter activated the triggers causing wide spread confusion amongst the chapter, even causing them to turn on each other, resulting in their total defeat with some being inducted into the Alpha Legion.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Engindeer said:


> I can't for the life of me, stand to think about comissar Yarrick fighting mano-a-mano against Ghazghkull.. Any person below a Space Marine should be cannon fodder under such circumstances, and not be given a plot-shield. Very powerful inquisitors are exempt as well.
> 
> Don't get me started on Ghaunt's Ghosts... There's enough dangers out there already, so if you aren't a 7 ft tall giant in powered armor, you're not gonna cut it without strenght in numbers.


To be fair, Yarrick did lose that fight. He only lived because Ghazkull wanted a good fight next time, and Yarrick`s leadership did give the orks a damn good fight. 

You may cry plot shield if you wish, but it is a reasonable one and this sort of thing is to be expected in any fiction. 



locustgate said:


> I can't think of any official fluff.
> The one thing I hate most is when people say that the Tau Etherials were made by the eldar and then say there is proof.


That is from a very old source I believe, the specifics of which escape me at the moment. In any case, it can work either way. When I refer to it, I try to make it clear that it is just a theory. :dunno:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

SaintTom said:


> It wasnt the Thousand Sons but the Alpha legion that brought the total destruction of the Emperors Swords chapter, in which they spent centuries manipulating the populace of the Emperors Swords homeworld from where they drew their recruits, planting subconscious triggers into them before they were chosen to become astartes. Then when they eventually attacked the chapter activated the triggers causing wide spread confusion amongst the chapter, even causing them to turn on each other, resulting in their total defeat with some being inducted into the Alpha Legion.


Correct, and that is one of the best bits of fluff around for me


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

That seems like a bit of a long-winded process to get red of _one_ chapter to me. :/


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> That is from a very old source I believe, the specifics of which escape me at the moment. In any case, it can work either way. When I refer to it, I try to make it clear that it is just a theory. :dunno:


It's hinted in Xenology that the Eldar made it so that the Etherals could emit pheromones through a crystal-like object in their foreheads to control the rest of their race and the Queen of Qorl race could do the same with her subjects if I'm not mistaken. It mentions lore shared by both races that essentially describe the Eldar of ancient times.



Ultra111 said:


> That seems like a bit of a long-winded process to get red of _one_ chapter to me. :/


So perhaps one or lets say ten members of the Alpha Legion took out an entire chapter numbering in the hundreds/thousands without losing a single of their own or firing a single shot seems long winded to you as opposed to waging direct war that could last for centuries?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

> So perhaps one or lets say ten members of the Alpha Legion took out an entire chapter numbering in the hundreds/thousands without losing a single of their own or firing a single shot seems long winded to you as opposed to waging direct war that could last for centuries?


I didn't say it wasn't cool or anything, but I think they could have done better things taking however long it did, than just taking out 1 chapter.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

What like losing many men in the attacks the other traitors carry out whilst making little ground. It's brilliant and what the Alpha Legion are all about. Plus they probably were doing other things during that time, not just that, the rest of the Legion could easily have been off attacking something else or carrying out other manipulations in the time it took to fully set up the Swords. Then when they finally attack, they take minimal or no casualties and gain alot of new Astarted in the process. If only the rest of the traitors were as smart and manipulative as the Alphas the Imperium would be screwed


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I didn't say it wasn't smart mate; where is all this information on them? My comment ws just going on what you guys were saying, I've never heard about this before lol

EDIT - Also, does anyone know if they still consider themselves to be loyal? Because IIRC, they considered themselves Loyal at the end of Legion?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> I didn't say it wasn't smart mate; where is all this information on them? My comment ws just going on what you guys were saying, I've never heard about this before lol
> 
> EDIT - Also, does anyone know if they still consider themselves to be loyal? Because IIRC, they considered themselves Loyal at the end of Legion?


Alot of people, myself included, like to think they are still Loyal to the emperor.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

How exactly are they loyal though? I never really understood it.

They want to kill the Imperium...so Chaos cannot win? Something like that?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Pretty much yes. Although we can't have any idea of what they are now doing. After the results of the heresy obviously not going the way they planned it to i do wonder what Alpharius and Omegon then decided to do. Whether they are still alive to this day or not we can't know, it depseratly needs more expanding upon imo. I imagine quite a few of the Legion have split off and formed more extreme factions, with some fully joining chaos to bring about the Imperiums defeat, hence some of Alpha Legion using deamons of becoming deamon princes. Whilst others still continue to try and bring about the Imperiums defeat without embracing chaos, possiibly still with one or both of the Primarchs commanding them. And though i would like to believe some may have realised they failed in their original goal and tried to strengthen the Imperium by attacking some areas like to make them stronger like Cypher does, although there is absoloutely no evidence to show them doing this, so nah.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Fluff that I hate? Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons to fight Tyranids? WHAT THE HELL? C`mon, everyone knows that the chances of that happening should be 0.0000...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Fluff that I hate? Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons to fight Tyranids? WHAT THE HELL? C`mon, everyone knows that the chances of that happening should be 0.0000...


Nothing can have a 0% chance of happening....more likely 0.01x10^-100000000000000000


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Nothing can have a 0% chance of happening....more likely 0.01x10^-100000000000000000


 The chance of me turning into a women tomorrow is 0%.


Anyway - fluff that I hate?

_anything_ Slaanesh related. Whether that's default from being a Khorne nut - but I really, really hate it.

I don't understand why SO many people love that shit, he's the weakest Chaos God, the youngest - and he essentially stands for Rape, Torture and everything else inhumane you can think of.

Noise Marines and sonic weaponry is the lamest idea ever and they're pink (for crying out loud). They look like you bought some Marines, and your 12 year old sister painted them.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but It bugs the hell out of me. - which makes the amount of Lash based, and Slaanesh based lists on this site - even worse. :laugh:

Also Fulgrim is a pervert. End of discussion.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> The chance of me turning into a women tomorrow is 0%.


well technically........ :laugh:
just because it is so close to zero that it appears to be zero, doesn't mean that its zero. There is never a 0% chance of anything happening, as locustgate pointed out.
on that note...


> Fluff that I hate? Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons to fight Tyranids? WHAT THE HELL? C`mon, everyone knows that the chances of that happening should be 0.0000...


when the hell did this happen?! :shok:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

oblivion8 said:


> when the hell did this happen?! :shok:


5th ed BA or Nid dex.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

I didn't feel like reading through 11 pages, so if this has been mentioned already forgive me - the thing I hate most is the fact that the Primarchs are all in seclusion or dead, the daemon prince primarchs hiding on daemon worlds "thinking", it just sucks when it comes to miniatures - it would be cool to have some minis of the primarchs, whether you can use them in a game or not.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Mike Noble said:


> Probably the part about Orks using their weapons by thinking they should work. That was a theory made by a human because he couldn't understand the Orks technology, and is completely non factual, and yet everyone thinks it is canon.



How is that not Canon? I have the old ork Codex, and it says exactly that, in the CODEX. Not Canon? :scratchhead:


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

I get so tired of everyone worshipping the blood god. It's always blood god this and blood god that... blood for the blood god. It just makes chaos out to be a fucking joke just alittle bit smarter than those stupid orks. There are four gods why not talk about the worship of tzeentch or nurgle


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

ROT said:


> The chance of me turning into a women tomorrow is 0%.
> 
> 
> Anyway - fluff that I hate?
> ...


You see that's why we all like Slaanesh, because with him/her/it your chances of turning into a woman tomorrow rise to truly astronomical proportions.

In saying that, Slaanesh is probably one of the most complex of the Four Great Chaos Gods (Praise be Their Names!) and he stands for alot more than rape and torture, but I'm not going to get into that here.

Also, the Pink and Black thing is debatable as it can look very cool sometimes (although their original scheme looks very cool IMO), plus sonic weaponry is awesome, just think of those blasters for _Minority Report_, or a Chaos Marine screaming so loud it literally explodes a person/marine/xeno into bits.

Finally Fulgrim as a Daemon Prince is incredibly cool, four arms with swords, and a snake like lower body, and just check out the dialogue of that Daemon at the end of _Fulgrim_, very cool indeed.

P.S Lucius the Eternal rocks and would rape Kharne any day of the week. He would also probably beat him in close combat as well. :biggrin:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Fluff that I hate? Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons to fight Tyranids? WHAT THE HELL? C`mon, everyone knows that the chances of that happening should be 0.0000...


Your failure to grasp the true extent of our logic continues to astound me. We observed a potential tactical advantage and exploited it.



oblivion8 said:


> when the hell did this happen?! :shok:


Blood Angel codex, the Ghelana something... It`s in the timeline bit somewhere. Essentially, the Blood Angels under Dante`s command were fighting the necrons of the Silent King, (a friend of mine, Doelago) when the tyranids rocked up. 

The BA and nids teamed up to fight off the bugs, then when the bugs were gone, the two factions kind of had a stand off moment before both deciding to simply depar and go their seperate ways. 

Everyone seems to be having a cry about it, but I think it adds a bit to the necron`s character. Anything to lessen the simple impression that they exist only to kill, this piece suggests a more subtle agenda.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Everyone seems to be having a cry about it, but I think it adds a bit to the necron`s character. Anything to lessen the simple impression that they exist only to kill, this piece suggests a more subtle agenda.


I don't think the problem comes from the Nec standpoint (a bunch of those Nec Lords are batty in anyways). The issue is more with the Blood Angel side of things and them just going on their way after the Nids got squashed. I mean, isn't one of the Imperium's mottos "suffer not the alien to live". And the fact that they were tired/weakened doesn't really cover it. There is loads of fluff where astartes are in similar weakened/vulnerable positions and carry on fighting because they believe it's their duty to uphold the laws of the Imperium no matter what.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Your failure to grasp the true extent of our logic continues to astound me. We observed a potential tactical advantage and exploited it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Agreed. Necrons look at what is most logical, and the most logical thing to do at the time was to team up with the strongest of the two opponents, and fight the weaker. The nids lack the compability to rationally view the situation at the same level as a Necron of SM, so the necrons made a tactical, logical decision in picking the stronger of the two and taking out the weaker. Why they had a stand off afterwards rather than blowing eachother to bits is beyond me, but it could have possibly been an issue of respect. The only thing that clashes here is that the Space Marines were created to purge the galaxy of xenos for mankinds survival, so the fact the teamed with xenos to fight more xenos, then let the Necrons live sort of clashes with other fluff - that doesn't mean I "hate" that part of the fluff by any means though. It opened up more possibilities for gaming


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

jmambrosian said:


> I get so tired of everyone worshipping the blood god. It's always blood god this and blood god that... blood for the blood god. It just makes chaos out to be a fucking joke just alittle bit smarter than those stupid orks. There are four gods why not talk about the worship of tzeentch or nurgle


It always struck me that GW, in recent times, decided to focus more on Khorne and Nurgle as the prominent chaos gods. 

Tzeentch has always been a minority on the TT, and Slaanesh was probably seen as 'too mature' for mainstream appeal - though it doesn't take a genius to see that these guys has immensely more character than THE BLOOOOOD GOOOD and Papa Nurgle.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

That's probably the reason why mate. If they wanna get more audience, a simple character like Khorne will probably get more attention than a god who is harder to understand and may take some understanding of the 40k world to fully grasp.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

That, and perfection for the dark prince....isn't nearly as catchy as blood for the blood god. That, and they really don't have the necessary drive to flesh out tzeentch anymore, since something that knows almost everything is a tad overpowered no matter what fictional universe its in. (I can see it now, captain ridicules of the Smurf marines is leading a uber super battle fleet against the enemies of man, and is undone by a flaw built into his ships reactor 5 years ago by a lowly Tzeentchian cultist, causing a huge explosion that vaporizes a vital space dock clearing the way for chaos warbands to claim a entire sector withing 2 years.......yah lets make it fair, and send some zombies, and lobotomized psychos instead.)


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I think it's because deep down everyone would rather be a berserk baby killing maniac than a Diseased Dancing Tub of lard, a hermaphadite, or a tentacle monster.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i hate how the orks are portrayed as some comical cannon fodder and not for what they are and could be. like it is said, if they got totally organised they would conquer the galaxy. now maybe if they fleshed their fluff out from a war in heaven standpoint then show a regression to what they are know then we might show them the respect they deserve. hell sometimes i see some ork pics and think i would prefer to go up against a deamon with a bread knife than one of those brutes.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Engindeer said:


> It always struck me that GW, in recent times, decided to focus more on Khorne and Nurgle as the prominent chaos gods.
> 
> Tzeentch has always been a minority on the TT, and Slaanesh was probably seen as 'too mature' for mainstream appeal - though it doesn't take a genius to see that these guys has immensely more character than THE BLOOOOOD GOOOD and Papa Nurgle.


That much true, I dislike the lack of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, also the followers of both Gods TS and Emperors Childrens, the latter more than the previous one. After reading Fulgrim Im totally hooked on them.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

After reading Fulgrim I had a few urges of my own. :grin:

As for more fluff hate, who the hell decided that the malefactor and exocrine be deleted? Granted, they are both pretty much obsolete, but they were still damn awesome! But there`s been nothing on them since the tyrannofex and tervigon came out. :ireful2:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> That much true, I dislike the lack of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, also the followers of both Gods TS and Emperors Childrens, the latter more than the previous one. After reading Fulgrim Im totally hooked on them.


I find this to be amusing as so far in 40k it's only the, eventual, followers of Slaanesh and Tzeentch that have received a novel.

Can I now complain that the devotees of Khorne and Nurgle are being left out? :grin:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

No you can't, not till berzerker's and plague marines stop being the only decent cult troops for practical use, and stop appearing in every damn CSM army I have seen in the last 5 years locally.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I find this to be amusing as so far in 40k it's only the, eventual, followers of Slaanesh and Tzeentch that have received a novel.
> 
> Can I now complain that the devotees of Khorne and Nurgle are being left out? :grin:


Well Khorne has his grip around Gaunts Ghosts, Cadian Blood had Nurgle in it and as well Thunder from Fenris (then audio). Then you have Hunt for Voldorious which I heavily suspect to be a Khorne Daemon Prince. :grin: I know Slaanesh supposebly are in the Eisenhorn trilogy, but what other books can they be found in? :shok:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> Well Khorne has his grip around Gaunts Ghosts, Cadian Blood had Nurgle in it and as well Thunder from Fenris (then audio). Then you have Hunt for Voldorious which I heavily suspect to be a Khorne Daemon Prince. :grin: I know Slaanesh supposebly are in the Eisenhorn trilogy, but what other books can they be found in? :shok:


Voldorius is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch 

But none of those books are centred around Khorne or Nurgle, the Space Wolf series has a large number of Thousand Sons in it spread over a fair number of the books.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well... The. You know... There is that heresy book where the big guy talked to tzeentch.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Well... The. You know... There is that heresy book where the big guy talked to tzeentch.


What book is that?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> What book is that?


Magnus did.....not the emp


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Magnus what the largest primarch. I didn't say the..... come on, dude. 

At Ultra,
A thousand Sons.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Magnus what the largest primarch. I didn't say the..... come on, dude.
> 
> At Ultra,
> A thousand Sons.


That'll be why I have't read that yet; I should really get round to reading it...

Cheers


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Voldorius is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
> 
> But none of those books are centred around Khorne or Nurgle, the Space Wolf series has a large number of Thousand Sons in it spread over a fair number of the books.


Really? Youre kidding me? What hints did you get that from? His whole Blood Tide kinda got me thinking it was Khorne. Yeah I havent gotten a chance to read the Space Wolves omnibuses yet but Im thinking about buying them. Thanks for the tip. k:


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> Really? Youre kidding me? What hints did you get that from? His whole Blood Tide kinda got me thinking it was Khorne. Yeah I havent gotten a chance to read the Space Wolves omnibuses yet but Im thinking about buying them. Thanks for the tip. k:


I haven't read the the book (yet) but after browsing lexicanum, it says about him getting the imperial forces under his sway. That sounds very Tzeentch like to me. If it were a khorne daemon, I imagine he would have just attacked them, or something else along those lines.

He was also the 'strikemaster' of the Alpha Legion, and I always imagined them to be more like Tzeentch than any other chaos god.


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## vaul117 (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't like the idea that you have to have these weird blindfolded freaks called Astropaths, who often go insane or have their brains explode are the ONLY way for a ship to navigate and send interstellar communications. After thousands of years you would think that humanity would be able to come up with a cogitator that did the same thing. I mean the Tau don't have Astropaths and they manage to navigate around just fine. I'm just saying, if every time you hit some turbulence your navigators head explodes its probably time to find another way.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Emperor tried to secure another way to travel back before the Heresy. 

But Magnus screwed it up. :blush:

And for warp _travel_ you`re thinking of Navigators, not astropaths.  Navigators are the guys who have three eyes and can see the warp. Lucky them. :laugh:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

There is loads more fluff that makes no sense. Such as a devastator squad taking out a Warlord titan. How often does THAT fuckin happen?!?!

Marbo also sounds stupid. In every game I know he pops up, lobs a demo charge and then gets shot to pieces. Sounds crap for someone who is known for his survival and taking out armies by himself.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

vaul117 said:


> I mean the Tau don't have Astropaths and they manage to navigate around just fine.


The Tau's warp skimming is fine for their tiny, compact empire. For the Imperium, being stretched across the majority of the galaxy, skimming isn't very practical. I mean, IG response times are already like a couple of decades on average. If they had to rely on just skimming the warp it would probably go up to centuries.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Marbo also sounds stupid. In every game I know he pops up, lobs a demo charge and then gets shot to pieces. Sounds crap for someone who is known for his survival and taking out armies by himself.


LOL, I gotta agree with you on that one.


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## Lost Crusader (Nov 15, 2010)

The Chaos gods are not evil. The are fincule lile humans. That is the point Korne can be looked at as the god of honer and duty. Nurgle can be seen as the Proteccter of life and Slaanesh can be seen as the God ofLove and Passion. Tezinch is akin to the powers of Zuse in that he can change the things that he wonts and comands all by controling others fates Including the other gods. its just a matter of perspective.


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## redbrain (Dec 4, 2010)

To be honest there is only maybe 2 things i dis-like (not hate) Blood-angels and Space Wolves I just think they are a little too cheesy not realisitic enough in my opinion.Blood Angels because i just dont think that massive bright red is a cool armour color... lol oh and noise marines just seem a little cheesy too...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

redbrain said:


> To be honest there is only maybe 2 things i dis-like (not hate) Blood-angels and Space Wolves I just think they are a little too cheesy not realisitic enough in my opinion.Blood Angels because i just dont think that massive bright red is a cool armour color... lol oh and noise marines just seem a little cheesy too...


But bright yellow is?


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Marbo also sounds stupid. In every game I know he pops up, lobs a demo charge and then gets shot to pieces. Sounds crap for someone who is known for his survival and taking out armies by himself.


He only pretends to be shot; he actually dodges every shot then takes a crafty kip until the enemy is off guard.


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

I hate fluff that doesn't translate well into the game, I don't mind some of it, but it can get ridiculous ex. Stormvald-Maugan Ra stands up against the entire Tyranid Swarm and wins! yeah....like the time I killed him with my termagants? or how about the time that my genestealers rended him? or that time my trygon stabbed him 6 times and he died? That's what I don't like


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