# The 'Best' Primarch



## Baron Spikey

No I've not lost what little of my mind I still have left, I'm doing a subjective thread based on Primarchs (_but Baron_, I hear you say, _you could be proven wrong!_ Not likely my dears).

Essentially the concept of this thread is to list the Primarchs from the 'best' to 'worst', 1-18 respectively, in which ever category you choose to judge them- these can be from any time period you want, pre-, during-, post-Heresy it's up to you.
Now to be clear this is about the Primarchs *not* their Legions, so I don't want to see Mortarion, for example, put down as #1 because you think the Death Guard are awesome :wink:

Here's the list of Primarchs in Legion order for you to base your decision(s) on:

 Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels)
 Fulgrim (Emperor's Children)
Perturabo (Iron Warriors)
Jaghatai Khan (White Scars)
Leman Russ (Space Wolves)
Rogal Dorn (Imperial Fists)
 Konrad Curze (Night Lords)
Sanguinius (Blood Angels)
Ferrus Manus (Iron Hands)
 Angron (World Eaters)
Roboute Guilliman (Ultramarines)
 Mortarion (Death Guard)
Magnus the Red (Thousand Sons)
Horus Lupercal (Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus)
Lorgar (Word Bearers)
Vulkan (Salamanders)
Corax (Raven Guard)
 Alpharius/Omegon (Alpha Legion)


I'll give you a rather subjective example to get the ball rolling:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Heresy Primarchs in Order of Size (Height and Bulk):

*1- Magnus the Red*
(Unarguably the giant amongst the Primarchs)
*2- Ferrus Manus*
(In _Fulgrim_ he's said to stand a head taller than Corax or Vulkan)
*3- Leman Russ
4- Angron
*(These 2 are interchangeable in my eyes, but I imagine both are extremely burly warriors, even if they're not noticeably taller than their brothers)
*5- Vulkan
*(From the little we know everything about him suggests a powerful, bulky frame)*
6- Sanguinus
*(It's the wings and their mass that put Sanguinus above Horus in my mind)*
7- Horus Lupercal
*(Superlative warrior, physically impressive even amongst his brothers but not noted for being any taller or significantly more muscular)*
8-12 Lion El'Jonson/Perturabo/Jaghatai Khan/Rogal Dorn/Roboute Guilliman 
*(All hold the middle ground in my opinion none of them stands out from the others in terms of size)*
13- Konrad Curze
*(Similar to Corax but with a twisted tautness of muscle to him that further increases his size)*
14- Lorgar
*(His preference towards scholarly pursuits puts him at the lower end of physicallity amongst his brothers in my opinion)*
15- Mortarion
*(Renowned as being gaunt to the point of skeletal, for a Primarch at least)
*16- Fulgrim*
(I see him as an almost ascetic warrior dedicated to physical perfection, a living sculpture of defined musculature)
*17- Corax
*(noted as being rather svelt in comparison to most of his brothers)
*18- Alpharius/Omegon*
(A large Astartes is able to easily masquerade as Alpharius, suggesting a slight build for the pair)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that wasn't a great example but you can kind of see where I'm going with this- though of course you don't have to necessarily add explanations for the placement of each Primarch- and if you want to do more than 1 list for which ever categories you choose then feel free but only* 1 list per post*.

I look forwards to seeing peoples opinions, informed or not :biggrin:


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## ckcrawford

_I did this list based on Contributions and Potential of these Primarchs Pre-Heresy_

1. *Horus* (He's the Warmaster, pretty awesome in everyway... blah blah blah)

2. *Dorn *(The Pretorian of Terra and the one "true brother" of the primarchs. In my opinion the only one who may have had a better relationship with his brothers was Sanguinus )

3-5. I would have to go with the "3 Angels of the Imperium" for this one. *Lion El Johnson, Roboute Guilliman, and Sanguinus*. These three seemed to have had a foothold in the Imperium by being perfect exampled embodyments of the Imperium. Each of them also had their unique traits. But in my opinion, were all equally good. Sanguinus and his diplomacy, trust, and nobility. Guilliman and his tactic,and responsibility to manage the whole eastern empire. And the Lion who was Probably the third best General, in the sense he was able to conquer much for the Imperium.

6-8. Having a difficult time with this one, but I thought both *Perturabo, Magnus, Logar* brought potential to the Imperium. Its hard to say how things would have ended up if it were not for the Heresy. But I believe that Perturabo would have brought much achievements to technology throughout the Imperium, Magnus would have created better understanding of the Warp and ways to control it (we see evidence with how he established Librarians throughout the legions), and Logar brought zeal and fate to the Imperium which would have united and brought the Imperium closer.

9. *Leman Russ*- Seems to have been a good brother and a great tactician. It also seemed that he was created to almost be a literal dog of the Emperor. Utterly loyal, to make sure non of the other primarchs went out of line.

10. *Fulgrim*- Was a great leader of Chemos and perhaps a great example of what a president in our world would be. But because of his legion(size) he was limited to what he could have done to the rest of the Imperium.

11.* Vulkan*- Essentially like Fulgrim, I think Vulkan was limited in many ways to his contribution to the Imperium. However, I think that there was some potential with how he valued human life.

12. *Konrad Curze*- A real troubled primarch, I don't think was able to live up to the ideal ways to the Imperium. Sooner or later Konrad Curze needed to be taken care of. But I believe he was right over many things concerning the enemies of the Imperium. Mostly humanity as a whole. It seemed that he understood that mankind did not believe in the Imperial Ideology and that the only reason why they followed it was due to fear. And Konrad Curze held the Imperium by that concept.

13.* Angron*- Was a very angry primarch.... lol. Almost a lost cause for the Imperium. However, his ability to funnel that anger into destroying the enemies of the Imperium I think, made him an okay general.

14. *Mortarion*- we don't really know much about this primarch, but it seems that this primarch really limited how he contributed to the Imperium. Also seems pretty close minded about things. My basis for this is how he limits the weaponry in his legion and how he thinks of sorcery.

15. *Corax*- Almost the same as Mortation's example including his closeminded attitude with "sorcery". I think Corax maybe worse in the fact that Corax even states that he doesn't value the Emperor's ideology. I dont think hit and run isn't very effective when your enemy has superior technology and such. Basically I don't think he was able to contribute to the Imperium very well. A thing about hit and run, is that it also takes too much time.

16. *Alpharius*- I put Alpharius in the bottom due to his contributions to the Imperium. Thats how I guess I ordered the list. It seemed as though Alpharius spent much time just kind of screwing around and having his own pleasure in his skill by defeating his enemies. By screwing around, I mean that he wasn't able to progress the way they should have. His tactics were questioned by Guilliman for a reason. In return Alpharius decided to ignore him.

17. *Khan*- Don't know about him and Harley. As far as I am concerned I don't really know what he did during the crusade. But it seemed like his idea of warfare was limited despite all the technology available to him.

18. *Ferrus Manus*- I don't like his take in perfection. At least his counter-part Fulgrim did a lot with his idea of perfection. I'm not sure where his legion and now chapter came up with the concept that flesh is weak.


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## DestroyerHive

The "best" Primarch, my friend, is a dead Primarch.


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## Angel of Blood

I disagree on Alpharius, he would be able to contribute massively to the Imperium by his use of espionage, spy network and intelligence gathering. Intelligence is everything in war and in a empire and Alpharius Omegon and the legion were second to none. I disagree again on your perception on Alpharius motives of just having fun and dicking about. He fought clever, intelligent fights with minimal loses whilst at the same time entering operations and campaigns with the bare minimum amount of men and drastically changing the outcome and speed of said campaign. Also just because Guillman disapproved of his methods does not automatically make them wrong, he was just as tactically brilliant as Guilliman, they were just polar opposites in their thoughts and ways of executing their strategies which is why Guilliman would of course disapprove. You also make Alpharius sound rather childish by simple saying he ignored him so off hand. His tactics worked, he acheived excellent solid victories with minimal casualties, but again it clashed with Guillimans ideologies, instead of having a massive arguement and hating Guilliman he simply choose to agree to disagree as it were, quite mature really.

Other than that, i like the list


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## Wusword77

Pre Heresy Primarchs: Who loves cookies more?

1. Horus: based on how much stuff he tried to do for the Imperium clearly loved cookies.

2. Guilliman: Took over a large number of worlds, hoping for complete the crusade, in competition with Horus for cookies.

3. Lorgar: Wanted everyone to praise the Emperor, thought he had the most compliant worlds. Clearly loves cookies.

4. Dorn: Got to build all the defences of Terra, that takes a lot of cookie hunting.

5. Leman Russ: What dog doesn't love doggie biscuts?

6. Fulgrim: Got to wear the Imperial Eagle when no one else was allowed, keep chasing those cookies sir.

7. Sanguinus: A true follower of the Emperors dream. Enjoys his cookies.

8. The Lion: Liked the title of Warmaster more then cookies, but saw cookies as a way to the title of Warmaster.

9-15. Perturabo, Magnus, Vulkan, Ferrus, Mortarion, Khan, Corax: Enjoyed cookies, but due to circumstances, couldn't push as hard for cookies as other Primarchs.

16. Alpharius: Cookies were not a primary concern.

17. Konrad Curze: Suffering from MPD he switchs between hating cookies and loving cookies.

18. Angron: No one this angry can have any love of cookies. He has clearly never tasted cookies, or he would be a much nicer person.

Am I doing it right? :laugh:


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## ckcrawford

Vulkan kept burning his cookies.


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## Baron Spikey

Wusword77 said:


> Am I doing it right? :laugh:


You can choose nearly any sort of criteria for your list if you want, remember though that this is 40K Fluff not General 40K, and in here I'm the Alpha and the Omega!:king:

So watch out or I'll smite you


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## gen.ahab

No, you are the forum lords play thing. Lol


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## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> No, you are the forum lords play thing. Lol


So are you! The Great Spikey Baron demands you write lists!:training:


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## gen.ahab

Fine.

Primarchs in order of douchyness:

#1 Horus: Dude had everything and then he throws a shitfit because daddy had to go to work. Are you fucking with me?

#2 Magy the Pissy: "I can do anything, I am the greatest. Weeeee!(legion falls apart and destroys humanities future) Ah shit!"

# 3-17 Everyone but Tweedy Bird: they are all dicks!

# 18 Tweedy Bird: Only one that isn't a complete douche in some way.

You know it's true.


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## Doelago

List based on their awesomness!


*1&2: Rogal Dorn and Vulkan:* Their names are just kick ass, and just look at the colors of their armor! WOW!

*3: Leman Russ:* A Wolf that is... Drunk? Awesome...

*4: Lion El'Jonson:* Just cause he is bad ass, and has managed to knock out the drunken wolf...

*5: Sanguinus:* A Space Marine that can fly without an Jump Pack...? Is that enough...?

*6: Jaghatai Khan:* Bad ass name! Seriously! And he has an awesome bike!

*7: Corax:* Read some (30k) history, and you will understand... 

*8: Roboute Guilliman:* He wrote a book so heavy that the servitors who were supposed to carry it to print broke their backs after a few meters...

*9: Magnus the Red:* Seriously, that dude sounds awesome, and is big as fuck... 

*10-17: Fulgrim, Perturabo, Angron, Konrad Curze, Angron, Mortarion, Lorgar: * (Not ranked in order...) These guys sucked terribly... They all did something, but in the end they all failed so totally that only one guy could be ranked bellow them... 

*18: Horus Lupercal:* Ok, seriously... This dude just sucks... Like totally... He failed so totally that he could easily be ranked as the biggest failure in the history of the whole Galaxy... I mean, seriously, he did not manage to capture Terra even tough he had the loyalists out numbered, and when he was like... 5 minutes from victory, he failed and got his ass kicked... 


Thats my opinion on the matter... (Note, everything above has been edited by the Inquisiton.)


Edit: Wowow! 2000 posts!


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## Wusword77

Baron Spikey said:


> You can choose nearly any sort of criteria for your list if you want, remember though that this is 40K Fluff not General 40K, and in here I'm the Alpha and the Omega!:king:
> 
> So watch out or I'll smite you


I'm simply using "Cookies" in place of presents from the Emperor (it sounds much more delicious). The Emperor had to give the Primarchs something for doing the job correctly, as evidenced by Horus getting the title of Warmaster, Fulgrim getting his Marble from Earth and wearing the Imperial Eagle.

That aside no one has seemed to have any objection to my standing on the primarchs love of cookies. :victory:


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## Chompy Bits

Most 'loving/caring' primarchs:

1. Magnus - Poked out his own eye to save his sons. That's some dedication. Seemed to have a great emotional attachment to all of his sons. 

2. Horus - Before turning seemed to care greatly about his his closest sons. Look at his relationship with Sejanus.

3. Sanguinius - Weeped like a baby when a few of his marines got killed on Murder.

4. Roboute Guilliman - Seems like the Angelina Jolie of primarchs. Taking in others who aren't necessarilly of his geneseed.

5. Dorn - He seemed quite broken after the Iron Cage incident which showed that he must have cared quite a bit.

6. Corax - After he realised what he'd done to his legion he went all emo and pissed of to the Eye of Terror.

7. Russ - Had enough of a close bond with his sons that he'd get drunk enough to do stupid and embarrassing shit in front of them (Spear of Russ incident)

8 - 12. The rest. 

13. Mortarion - Don't have much to base this on. He just seemed like a cold, miserable bastard who valued only strength. 

14. Alpahrius/Omegon - Didn't seem to care much for individuals. Legion seemed to function more as this weird hivemind like organism.

15. Fulgrim - He let his ego get in the way and got all pissy when one the EC upstaged him.

16. The Lion - Too cold. Didn't seem to really care much about anyone unless they were useful to him.

17. Kurze - Hated his legion because they were a bunch of murderers and rapists but cared enough to try and free them from imperial binds.

18. Angron - Placed nearly no value on the lives of his marines.

Anyway, just a random one I thought up now. Obviously this is just my opinion and others will most likely disagree with me on some of them. Also, haven't read all the HH books so I have incomplete pictures of guys like Lorgar. 

Also, the first few positions are interchangeable as all those primarchs seemed to care a great deal about their legions.


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## Angel of Blood

I think Alpharius and Omegon did care for their marines quite a bit, they went well out of their way to use stategies and tactics that would minimise loses and they spoke as equals to their men, allowing them a high degree of individuality and freedom, and let them speak up with their own ideas and opinions


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## gen.ahab

If it is true that Alpharius is not dead, they also had no problem throwing one of their own marines to their death just to avoid the risk of their own lives. Not a very fatherly thing to do.


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## Chompy Bits

Angel of Blood said:


> I think Alpharius and Omegon did care for their marines quite a bit, they went well out of their way to use stategies and tactics that would minimise loses and they spoke as equals to their men, allowing them a high degree of individuality and freedom, and let them speak up with their own ideas and opinions


I don't know if that was so much caring or more them just trying to maximise their resources by getting everyone to pitch in. And they didn't always go for minimum casualties. I remember that one system where Alpahrius/Omegon sat in orbit for months and allowed their enemies to build up their strength just so that they could be more of a challenge to conquer. As I recall, Guilliman really wasn't impressed with this.


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## cragnes417

Baron Spikey said:


> No I've not lost what little of my mind I still have left, I'm doing a subjective thread based on Primarchs (_but Baron_, I hear you say, _you could be proven wrong!_ Not likely my dears).
> 
> Essentially the concept of this thread is to list the Primarchs from the 'best' to 'worst', 1-18 respectively, in which ever category you choose to judge them- these can be from any time period you want, pre-, during-, post-Heresy it's up to you.
> Now to be clear this is about the Primarchs *not* their Legions, so I don't want to see Mortarion, for example, put down as #1 because you think the Death Guard are awesome :wink:
> 
> Here's the list of Primarchs in Legion order for you to base your decision(s) on:
> 
> Lion El'Jonson (Dark Angels)
> Fulgrim (Emperor's Children)
> Perturabo (Iron Warriors)
> Jaghatai Khan (White Scars)
> Leman Russ (Space Wolves)
> Rogal Dorn (Imperial Fists)
> Konrad Curze (Night Lords)
> Sanguinius (Blood Angels)
> Ferrus Manus (Iron Hands)
> Angron (World Eaters)
> Roboute Guilliman (Ultramarines)
> Mortarion (Death Guard)
> Magnus the Red (Thousand Sons)
> Horus Lupercal (Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus)
> Lorgar (Word Bearers)
> Vulkan (Salamanders)
> Corax (Raven Guard)
> Alpharius/Omegon (Alpha Legion)
> 
> 
> I'll give you a rather subjective example to get the ball rolling:
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Pre-Heresy Primarchs in Order of Size (Height and Bulk):
> 
> *1- Magnus the Red*
> (Unarguably the giant amongst the Primarchs)
> *2- Ferrus Manus*
> (In _Fulgrim_ he's said to stand a head taller than Corax or Vulkan)
> *3- Leman Russ*
> *4- Angron*
> (These 2 are interchangeable in my eyes, but I imagine both are extremely burly warriors, even if they're not noticeably taller than their brothers)
> *5- Vulkan*
> (From the little we know everything about him suggests a powerful, bulky frame)
> *6- Sanguinus*
> (It's the wings and their mass that put Sanguinus above Horus in my mind)
> *7- Horus Lupercal*
> (Superlative warrior, physically impressive even amongst his brothers but not noted for being any taller or significantly more muscular)
> *8-12 Lion El'Jonson/Perturabo/Jaghatai Khan/Rogal Dorn/Roboute Guilliman *
> (All hold the middle ground in my opinion none of them stands out from the others in terms of size)
> *13- Konrad Curze*
> (Similar to Corax but with a twisted tautness of muscle to him that further increases his size)
> *14- Lorgar*
> (His preference towards scholarly pursuits puts him at the lower end of physicallity amongst his brothers in my opinion)
> *15- Mortarion*
> (Renowned as being gaunt to the point of skeletal, for a Primarch at least)
> *16- Fulgrim*
> (I see him as an almost ascetic warrior dedicated to physical perfection, a living sculpture of defined musculature)
> *17- Corax*
> (noted as being rather svelt in comparison to most of his brothers)
> *18- Alpharius/Omegon*
> (A large Astartes is able to easily masquerade as Alpharius, suggesting a slight build for the pair)
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now that wasn't a great example but you can kind of see where I'm going with this- though of course you don't have to necessarily add explanations for the placement of each Primarch- and if you want to do more than 1 list for which ever categories you choose then feel free but only* 1 list per post*.
> 
> I look forwards to seeing peoples opinions, informed or not :biggrin:


judging the pictures(if not official) Russ seem's to be close to his astartes height only slightly taller


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## Angel of Blood

gen.ahab said:


> If it is true that Alpharius is not dead, they also had no problem throwing one of their own marines to their death just to avoid the risk of their own lives. Not a very fatherly thing to do.


It's not the death of Alpharius and Omegon that is in dispute on Eskrador, it's the entire incident, the whole thing was told by Kravin who is supposedly a agent of the Alpha Legion anyway. I would take anything said about Eskrador with a tiny pinch of salt, if you choose to believe it at all



Chompy Bits said:


> I don't know if that was so much caring or more them just trying to maximise their resources by getting everyone to pitch in. And they didn't always go for minimum casualties. I remember that one system where Alpahrius/Omegon sat in orbit for months and allowed their enemies to build up their strength just so that they could be more of a challenge to conquer. As I recall, Guilliman really wasn't impressed with this.


They still went for minimum casualties then, they let them build their strength up sure, but they also spent those months infiltrating them and sabotaging the enemy all over the place. As a result when they did attack the enemy quickly fell into complet disray and confusion giving the Alpha Legion an easy victory. If anything they once again saved more men doing it that way than a propper attack. And peoples opinions will of course vary, but i think it showed they did value their men more and care for them by being at cuh a personal and close level with them. Each to their own


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## gen.ahab

Angel of Blood said:


> It's not the death of Alpharius and Omegon that is in dispute on Eskrador, it's the entire incident, the whole thing was told by Kravin who is supposedly a agent of the Alpha Legion anyway. I would take anything said about Eskrador with a tiny pinch of salt, if you choose to believe it at all.


The incident is fairly well excepted as truth. Personally, I think Alpharius is dead and that Omegon is in control of the legion, or whats left of it anyway. But, assuming that Alpharius did send his own marine to die, which is what some say is what happened, it doesn't speak well for his fatherly sensibilities.


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## Angel of Blood

It's not actually. The Ultramarines themselves don't believe it, especially the part about Alpharius being killed, the Inquisition don't believe it. Like i said, the entire account of the engagement was told by a member of the Alpha Legion, how can anyone possibly take it as truth with that in mind. And it's actually mentioned nowhere in the Index Astartes article detailing the incident as Alpharius having used a double, nowhere, it's all fan speculation which doesn't speak for much. And no matter how good they were at disguisng themselves as Alpharius, im fairly sure Guilliman would know, Horus recognised him instantly as one of his lost brothers after all. But again, the event probably never happened and if it did happen it's highly, highly likely that it didn't play out anything like it is described.


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## gen.ahab

Ultramarines believe they fought, they believe that they killed Alpharius. IF they didn't kill Alpharius, that would mean a double was used. If the person in question was armored, it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe he could be mistaken as his primarch, alpharius was the smallest of the primarchs. It is possible that it never happened, well it didn't since it is fiction, but until I get ahold of something that says it didn't, I will except it.


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## Angel of Blood

No the Ultramarines don't believe it happened, Alpharius being killed and the entire event. Everyone questions its validity, not a single person can confirm it actually happened. And when the very Legion(now chapter) that supposedly took part in it are saying bullshit, im inclined to agree that it's false

And Alpharius is *assumed* to be the smallest primarch, we have no idea whether thats true or not other than the fact that his men could do a good impersonation, one thing not even considered apparently is the Alpah Legionnaires could have been particularly tall. But we have no scale on many of the other Primarch height to even being to be able to say he was the smallets with any certainty. And again, if Horus can recognise him immiediatly on sight it's not a stretch to believe Guilliman wouldn't be able to aswell. But again, the incident is widely regarded to have never happened or not the way its decribed, so it's all mute really


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## gen.ahab

The UM woud either know it didn't or that it did, there should be no middle ground. It was their legion and their primarch. They record all of their engagements, if they combated another legion, especially if their was a battle their primarch was apart of, they would know. It shouldn't be a matter of belief.


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## ChugginDatHaterade

Constatin Valdor is the best primarch.


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## Angel of Blood

gen.ahab said:


> The UM woud either know it didn't or that it did, there should be no middle ground. It was their legion and their primarch. They record all of their engagements, if they combated another legion, especially if their was a battle their primarch was apart of the battle, they would know. It shouldn't be a matter of belief.


Right, well the UM don't believe it happened, so by your very logic there, it didn't.


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## gen.ahab

Yes, but you keep saying belief. The only thing that would be a matter of belief is the status of the enemy primarch. From what I have heard from CoTE and the other fluff bunnies is that they don't believe they killed him. That would seem to suggest to me that they fought.

P.S. Edited that post because it was grammartarded.


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## Angel of Blood

What? What about belief? They are under the belief that it didn't happen, they are under the belief that Eskrador was a falseified account, 

I know my fluff, particularly when it come to Primarch and the heresy in general, i'm quite well versed enough with the lore to take my word for it. The reason it's not believed he is dead by the majority is they don't believe it happened, it's right there in black and white. The entire event is not believed to have happened, not just the Primarch 'duel' if you can even call it that


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## gen.ahab

As I said....5 posts ago. For the UM, wouldn't be a matter of belief. They would have the records or they wouldn't and, if they didn't, it never happened. Thats why it wouldn't be a matter of belief for them. 

Personally, I don;y have second hand accounts of second hand accounts so I will have to back down until I manage to get a copy of the index astartes.


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## M3N0N26

gen.ahab said:


> As I said....5 posts ago. For the UM, wouldn't be a matter of belief. They would have the records or they wouldn't and, if they didn't, it never happened. Thats why it wouldn't be a matter of belief for them.
> 
> Personally, I don;y have second hand accounts of second hand accounts so I will have to back down until I manage to get a copy of the index astartes.


Having been a fan of Warhammer 40,000 for a fair while, and having been well versed in fluff for a long time, I can concur with Angel-Of-Blood, that the Ultramarines dispute the validity of the "Eskrador Incident" also. In fact, its such an Alpha Legion-esque thing to do, to plant falsified reports of their Primarch's murder, just to further their own objectives.

Just to further add, Lexicanum provides this:



> It should be noted, however, that Alpharius's death is still considered suspect even by the Ultramarines, and he may still be at large.



And for my own list, Psychic Abilities?
_Pre-Heresy Primarchs Psychic Abilities_
1) Magnus the Red - A no brainer here, a Sorcerer to rival the Empy himself
2) Horus Lupercal - Mister All Rounder himself.
3) Konrad Curze - Plagued by the "gift" or rather curse of foresight to alarming levels
4) Sanguinius/Lorgar - Both judged to have some abilities of foresight also
5) Leman Russ - According to _A Thousand Sons_ Mr.I Hate Psykers has a rather potent psychic scream himself that turned some astartes mad, and caused tremendous pain to others.
6-16) Corax, Vulkan, Ferrus, Fulgrim, The Lion, The Khan, Rogal Dorn, Papa Smurf Gulliman, Alpharius Omegon, Perturabo - Im sure to some degree that ALL primarchs had some sort of psychic ability, but I cant recall hearing anything about these primarchs in particular. Although I do recall somewhere reading of Corax's psychic abilities, perhaps the "invisibility"? 
17-18) Mortarion, Angron - Placed here because of Mortarions disdain for all things psychic indicating he had little psychic ability, and Angrons pure "RAWR DIE" attitude even before the heresy, I very much doubt he had time to even discover his psychic ability the way he would rush in.


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## gen.ahab

#1 Lexicanum is a wiki, it can be changed by any dipshit with fingers and an internet connection.

#2 That statement backs both my assertion and his.

Case and point:


> In the aftermath of the Heresy, the Alpha Legion did not retreat to the Eye of Terror like the other Traitor Legions; instead they moved on into the Galactic East, following new objectives of their own devising. Whether or not being brought to battle with the Ultramarines was one of these objectives is unknown, but it occurred all the same.
> On the world of Eskrador, the Alpha Legion was assaulted by Ultramarine forces. Alpharius was reportedly happy with such a development, as it allowed him to demonstrate the superiority of his flexible, multitudinous and unexpected military strategies on the notoriously precise, methodical and perhaps even moribund Ultramarines. However, the Alpha Legion primarch was apparently taken by surprise when Guilliman departed from his own strictures and led a surprise assault by his elite units on the Alpha Legion headquarters. In the resultant personal combat between Alpharius and Guilliman, it is believed that Alpharius was killed. The Alpha Legion responded, not by breaking and fleeing as Guilliman expected, but by turning on the Ultramarine detachment and harrying them so mercilessly that by the time they had returned to the main body of the Ultramarine force their casualties were almost total. The Ultramarines were driven from the planet in the subsequent battle.


Straight from the mouth of wiki......... I mean lexicanum. I didn't source it because I don't trust it.


----------



## M3N0N26

Yes but you've conveniently left out the part afterwards discussing how the entire account of ANYTHING alpha legion related came from Inquisitor Kravin, who was a suspected Alpha Legion agent, and disappeared whilst awaiting questioning regarding the matter...

If i took things out of context, I could make things appear how I'd want also. Just saying.


----------



## gen.ahab

> _*but it occurred all the same*_


:read:

Ummmmmm..... from lexi. I don't know about you, but that seems to suggest that the article says it *did* happen. Well..... thats just me I guess. Again, I am not using this crap fest as a source for my stance, which is what the entire point of that whole post was.

Now, as it would seem I need to acquire a few text that are rather scarce before I can make a truly informed decision, I concede defeat to AoB.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'm still entirely confused as to why your picking out this belief thing. The UM don't believe it happend, it is of course a case of belief, things can happen that go down on record or get deleted from records for whatever reason. Point is the UM despite a supposed log account of one of their own astartes about the battle, still don't believe it. And said log came from Kravin, it is the only account of the battle.

I'm not talking from a second view here either. I know it is, i've read about if plenty of times. Would it somehow make it more real if Baron or CotE were saying this? Well just in case my word and knowledge isn't enough for you....

White Dwarf No.277 - Pages 56-63. Alpha Legion Index Astartes.

To quote pg.59 
"The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe Lessons of Strife, though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system Earth-ward of Eskrador."

Pg.63 then goes on to explain how Kravin has become a suspect of working with the Alpha Legion all along


----------



## gen.ahab

No, I don't doubt you. And no, just because it comes from you rather than Baron and CoTE doesn't change anything. Its simply that I got a different impression from some of the things that they said.

The belief things stems from my view which is that it shouldn't be a matter of belief for the UM. They should have the records of such an event if it took place. If they don't it probably didn't happen. Again, I don't have the articles so I have nothing to fight back with other than second hand accounts. Although I never truly stated that, without a shadow of a doubt, it happened. Merely that if it did it would seem that Alpharius was a dick.


----------



## MEQinc

Doelago said:


> List based on their awesomness!
> *10-17: Konrad Curze*


But Konrad Curze is Batman! In Space! How is that not the most awesome thing ever? I'll take Space Batman and his legion of psyco-killers over Rogal (that just sounds funny to me) and his yellow-bellied carpenters any day of the week.


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## Angel of Blood

Moving back on topic and with my list

Best Crowning Moment of Awsome

1: Sanguinius - Holding the eternity gate on his own, then proceeding to break Ka'Bhandas back across his knee. Doesn't get much more awsome than this folks
2: Konrad Kurze - "Death is nothing compared to vindication"
3: Alpharius/Omegon - "That's all you get" followed swiftly by "For the Emeperor"
4: Lion El'Jonsons - One punching Russ
5: Russ: Breaking Magnus back across his knee (recuring theme here)
6: Ferrus Manus: When he catches Fulgrims sword mid swing and then 'unmakes' it
7: Corax: Beating Lorgar within an inch of his life
8: Khan: Leading a Rohan style cavalry charge into the traitor forces during the siege of Terra then taking the Lions Gate spaceport
9: Fulgrim: For killing Guilliman ^^
10-18: None of the rest really have any for me that standout. That or i've forgotten something. Even Horus suprsingly, i can't think of anything he's done thats been a truely epic moment, not for me anyway


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> Would it somehow make it more real if Baron or CotE were saying this? Well just in case my word and knowledge isn't enough for you....


Yeah, you suck. :laugh:



gen.ahab said:


> No, I don't doubt you. And no, just because it comes from you rather than Baron and CoTE doesn't change anything. Its simply that I got a different impression from some of the things that they said.
> 
> The belief things stems from my view which is that it shouldn't be a matter of belief for the UM. They should have the records of such an event if it took place. If they don't it probably didn't happen. Again, I don't have the articles so I have nothing to fight back with other than second hand accounts. Although I never truly stated that, without a shadow of a doubt, it happened. Merely that if it did it would seem that Alpharius was a dick.


_Angel_ has sufficiently covered the rest, but I would just like to jump in here. In regards to the records, ten thousand years is a long time. Records can easily be wiped, forgotten, manipulated, erased by viruses, lost, Et cetera. And that's assuming the Ultramarines strictly record all conflicts anyway. The Imperium is an inconceivably vast behemoth, an all-encompasing bureaucracy is impossible. It's perfectly plausable that the war on Eskrador occured, but wasn't present in any XIII Legion records (apart from in the earth-ward discovered by Inquisitor Kravin). But it's equally plausable that the entire incident was fabricated merely to plant misinformation. We simply don't know.

Back on topic, best Primarch? Horus, without a doubt (in general terms at least). But I think Alpharius needs to be given an honourary mention here, he alone has sparked a heated debate for the last two pages, it's exactly such things which he thrives on. He likes to piss us off by being so fucking secretive.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Angel of Blood said:


> Moving back on topic and with my list
> 
> Best Crowning Moment of Awsome
> 
> 1: Sanguinius - Holding the eternity gate on his own, then proceeding to break Ka'Bhandas back across his knee. Doesn't get much more awsome than this folks
> 2: Konrad Kurze - "Death is nothing compared to vindication"
> 3: Alpharius/Omegon - "That's all you get" followed swiftly by "For the Emeperor"
> 4: Lion El'Jonsons - One punching Russ
> 5: Russ: Breaking Magnus back across his knee (recuring theme here)
> 6: Ferrus Manus: When he catches Fulgrims sword mid swing and then 'unmakes' it
> 7: Corax: Beating Lorgar within an inch of his life
> 8: Khan: Leading a Rohan style cavalry charge into the traitor forces during the siege of Terra then taking the Lions Gate spaceport
> 9: Fulgrim: For killing Guilliman ^^
> 10-18: None of the rest really have any for me that standout. That or i've forgotten something. Even Horus suprsingly, i can't think of anything he's done thats been a truely epic moment, not for me anyway


What?! You put it in the Lion's cheap shot but no mention of Mags smiting Titans?


----------



## gen.ahab

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And that's assuming the Ultramarines strictly record all conflicts anyway.


No, that assuming the UM legion kept records of all engagements where their primarch potentially eliminated another one of his brothers.  I'm sorry, but that just seems like something someone would want to jot down don't you think?

Back to lists..... I got nothin.


EDIT:
Primarchs in order of badass: Version a la ahab.

#1 Russ for beating the living crap out of Magnus and throwing a spear at the moon. 

#2 Magnus for mind-fucking a titan.

#3 Sang for rocking the Fabio while kicking daemon ass and then trying to fight the uber-primarch.

#4 Night Haunter for blowing the crap out of a facility with no bombs.

#5-18 the rest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> No, that assuming the UM legion kept records of all engagements where their primarch potentially eliminated another one of his brothers.  I'm sorry, but that just seems like something someone would want to jot down don't you think?


Well you would think so. 

But regardless, over ten thousand years such information could easily have been:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> wiped, forgotten, manipulated, erased by viruses, lost, Et cetera.


Therefore I don't think that automatically means that if the Ultramarines personally don't have records of the Eskrador conflict, then they automatically assume it didn't happen. The main reason they are now dubious of the account is because of Inquisitor Kravin's mysterious intentions/allegiences, not because they themselves don't hold a record of the conflict.


----------



## Jerushee

In terms of Inter personal intelligence

1. Konrad - understood the deep workings of the human psyche, not fear for that was the byproduct, he understood motivation and drive. How humans truly work, they only do what they don't want to, when they truly have to for fear of loss of that which drives them. He used negative reinforcement, you obey and be nice, and ill remove the presence of death from your world (ie his own self and legion). Highest level of inter/intra personal intelligence and understanding of human psyche.

2. Alpharius - used indirect methods, manipulation of others through antecedents, interception of data, covert warfare and intelligence based warfare.

3. Horus - motivational intelligence similar to kurze, used positive reinforcement and punishment for others, to motivate them to his pwn desire. Balance between high strategic acumen, tactical acumen, and inter personal intel.

4. G man - strategic planning intelligence, as well as administrative edge, was able to compose an empire and rule over it in all aspects ofleadership.

5. Lorgar - intelligence in ability to appeal to others, to rally them and manipulate them with oratory ability.

6. Lion El - very high intelligence inregards to large scale strategic acumen, lacked intelligence in intra personal intel, and general human psychology.

7. Russ - very high "low grade" tactical acumen, in terms of personal comabt, group warfare, singular combat very high intel.

8. Ill do rest later

7. Sanguinas


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## Words_of_Truth

Dorn was the best all rounder imo.




Angel of Blood said:


> Moving back on topic and with my list
> 
> Best Crowning Moment of Awsome
> 
> 1: Sanguinius - Holding the eternity gate on his own, then proceeding to break Ka'Bhandas back across his knee. Doesn't get much more awsome than this folks
> 2: Konrad Kurze - "Death is nothing compared to vindication"
> 3: Alpharius/Omegon - "That's all you get" followed swiftly by "For the Emeperor"
> 4: Lion El'Jonsons - One punching Russ
> 5: Russ: Breaking Magnus back across his knee (recuring theme here)
> 6: Ferrus Manus: When he catches Fulgrims sword mid swing and then 'unmakes' it
> 7: Corax: Beating Lorgar within an inch of his life
> 8: Khan: Leading a Rohan style cavalry charge into the traitor forces during the siege of Terra then taking the Lions Gate spaceport
> 9: Fulgrim: For killing Guilliman ^^
> 10-18: None of the rest really have any for me that standout. That or i've forgotten something. Even Horus suprsingly, i can't think of anything he's done thats been a truely epic moment, not for me anyway


What about Dorn saving the Imperium by rescuing the Emperor?


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## Angel of Blood

It's not really a crowning moment of awsome though is it, i mean sure he saved the Emperor, but it's not the kind of scene you picture in your head or in a film and think "fuck me that was awsome" Would kind of just be him running in, becoming very upset and taking him down to the planet below. Admirable and saved the Imperium, but it's not an awsome scene to picture. Probably a good contender for a Crowning Moment of Sadness though. See definitions and examples here

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome?from=Main.Crowningmomentofawesome
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TearJerker


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## M3N0N26

Lorgar should be on the list of awesomeness purely for bitchslapping Malcador and Gulliman


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## Words_of_Truth

Until I read more about Sanguinius holding the gate etc, my favourite atm is Corax owning Lorgar like the little girl he was.


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## M3N0N26

Angel of Blood said:


> Moving back on topic and with my list
> 
> Best Crowning Moment of Awsome
> 
> 1: Sanguinius - Holding the eternity gate on his own, then proceeding to break Ka'Bhandas back across his knee. Doesn't get much more awsome than this folks
> 2: Konrad Kurze - "Death is nothing compared to vindication"
> 3: Alpharius/Omegon - "That's all you get" followed swiftly by "For the Emeperor"
> 4: Lion El'Jonsons - One punching Russ
> 5: Russ: Breaking Magnus back across his knee (recuring theme here)
> 6: Ferrus Manus: When he catches Fulgrims sword mid swing and then 'unmakes' it
> 7: Corax: Beating Lorgar within an inch of his life
> 8: Khan: Leading a Rohan style cavalry charge into the traitor forces during the siege of Terra then taking the Lions Gate spaceport
> 9: Fulgrim: For killing Guilliman ^^
> 10-18: None of the rest really have any for me that standout. That or i've forgotten something. Even Horus suprsingly, i can't think of anything he's done thats been a truely epic moment, not for me anyway


I think theres more that needs to be added for the other primarchs i.e:

-Lorgar bitchslapping Malcador and Roboute Gulliman
-Night Haunter for raping Rogal Dorn when he took "personal offence" to his visions, and of course Night Haunter should be on this purely because he saved Lorgars life...then called him a coward and spat where he stood.
-Perturabo purely for the Iron Cage...stopped the Fists from fighting for ages, and paved the way for his ascension to daemonhood.
-Angron...well im not sure but to be fair, the visualization of Angron getting impatient and hurling himself at Istvaan 3, however stupid it might have been, must have been an awesome sight. And in fairness, hes the only one whose done shit post heresy (armageddon).
-Magnus the Red raped a titan on his own?! He was pure awesome just for that!
-Dorn/Vulkan/Mort, not really anything to say, hasn't been expanded on really :/
-Horus saved the Empys life, thats gotta be down for the awesome list.


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## gen.ahab

When did Lorgar bitch slap Roboute Guilliman? Or even the Sigillite for that matter.


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## M3N0N26

gen.ahab said:


> When did Lorgar bitch slap Roboute Guilliman? Or even the Sigillite for that matter.


In _The First Heretic_.

Lorgar punched Malcador due to his insistence that Monarchia was razed due to non compliance, and he punched Gulliman when he was being pompous and rather patronizing with his orders to Lorgar.


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## gen.ahab

Well that would explain it. The First Heretic is still in my "to read" pile.


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## Gree

M3N0N26 said:


> In _The First Heretic_.
> 
> Lorgar punched Malcador due to his insistence that Monarchia was razed due to non compliance, and he punched Gulliman when he was being pompous and rather patronizing with his orders to Lorgar.


Actually I recall Guilliman being rather emotionless and hardly saying anything to Lorgar. What few sentences he did saw where short and to the point. He did't appear to take any joy at all in Lorgar's humiliation and was repeatedly described as ''passionless''


----------



## M3N0N26

Gree said:


> Actually I recall Guilliman being rather emotionless and hardly saying anything to Lorgar.


Yeah your right. From Lorgars perspective however, what he did say i.e "gtfo n bring worlds to compliance now" kinda irked him and screamed of arrogance...commence bitch slapping.


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## Angel of Blood

M3N0N26 said:


> I think theres more that needs to be added for the other primarchs i.e:
> 
> -Lorgar bitchslapping Malcador and Roboute Gulliman
> -Night Haunter for raping Rogal Dorn when he took "personal offence" to his visions, and of course Night Haunter should be on this purely because he saved Lorgars life...then called him a coward and spat where he stood.
> -Perturabo purely for the Iron Cage...stopped the Fists from fighting for ages, and paved the way for his ascension to daemonhood.
> -Angron...well im not sure but to be fair, the visualization of Angron getting impatient and hurling himself at Istvaan 3, however stupid it might have been, must have been an awesome sight. And in fairness, hes the only one whose done shit post heresy (armageddon).
> -Magnus the Red raped a titan on his own?! He was pure awesome just for that!
> -Dorn/Vulkan/Mort, not really anything to say, hasn't been expanded on really :/
> -Horus saved the Empys life, thats gotta be down for the awesome list.


Mmmmm, i dunno, again i'm quite particular on what can be defined as a Crowning Moment of Awsome. Again Lorgar smacking Guilliman and Malcador wouldn't and didn't really make me think, 'Awsome!' and get tht chill down your back etc like Sanguinius doing something as epic as the holding that gate on his own and defeating Kabandha, or Alpharius saying "for the Emperor" or the other examples. True Magnus ripping a Titan apart should probably be on there, that is one i forgot. I imagine Angron charging out of the depths of the Thunderhawks hold after all the fire going into it would be more terrifying than awsome. Perturabo, again your not going to watch that scene and get a CMofA feeling. And Night Haunter for the same reasons, more of a Crowning Moment of Cool, which is a subtle but large difference.

^^ i'm quite big on my tv tropes, get on that site and you will become lost for hours.


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## Chompy Bits

M3N0N26 said:


> -Magnus the Red raped a titan on his own?! He was pure awesome just for that!


Titans, plural. First an Ork Gargant & later an Eldar Titan.




M3N0N26 said:


> Lorgar punched Malcador due to his insistence that Monarchia was razed due to non compliance


What?! How the fuck did Malcador not die? He should be a pile of pulp after getting punched by a primarch.


----------



## Serpion5

My list. based on nothing but my own superior opinion of them.  At the time of the crusade/early heresy era.


1: Magnus. He is literally the antihero that every story needs. He has the power to save everything he holds dear, but because of his faults he instead becomes their doom. His is the most compelling story I have read to date.

2: Alpharius/Omegon. Everyone loves a bit of mystery, and these two provide. Are they alive? Dead? Both? Neither? Who knows, that`s the fun. 

3: Roboute Guilleman. Yes, I like the blue primarch, he is the tactical soldier boy that every military epic needs. Not as caring as Horus, not as evil or brutal as some of the others, he is the perfect military type for the overall plot.

4: Lorgar. Here we have the dupe who means well but unwittingly sets into motion the villain`s plans for them. 

5: Horus. Yeah, the protagonist of sorts who will be the deciding factor for the final duel with the minor villain (in this case the Emperor). He takes the lead when a hero is needed and leads his fellows in their quest, unaware that he is being manipulated.

6: Sanguinius. Good enough in a fight, cares about his sons, a good leader type. Really shines near the end when the stakes matter most.

7: Night Haunter. This guy reminds me of Batman and Shadow the Hedgehog. _I can be that guy. I can be the bad guy if it means the right side will win_ is the batman side. Then we have the Shadow _I don`t care about them anymore, they do nothing but hate me after everything I`ve done for them_ part, which is tragic yet intriguing all the same.

8: Corax. A ninja among a legion of ninjas. Would be higher if he had more fluff than current so I could really give a good enough analysis. What he has currently does not eclipse what I have above.

9: The second primarch. I will simply assume his awesome level will place him here. :dunno: 

10: Leman Russ. The big angry brute who really has a soft side. While he isn`t exactly a major player very often, he does have a moment or two to shine when it matters most. 

11: Perturabo. He`s good at what he does, really good. But he`s always overshadowed by his brother, fostering a resentment that will have consequences for him and everything around him.

12: Fulgrim. Beginning to reach the dregs. Yeah, this guy has an important role to play, but he fits it so perfectly, that you kind of feel it was all set up. Funny, that. 

13: The eleventh primarch. I assume he will not be spectacular, but will warrant enough of a quality to put him between Fulgrim and Vulkan.

14: Vulkan. Yeah, he`s a pyro, you can tell by the burnt black skin and bloodshot red eyes. He left some toys behind for his sons to find and play with. Or so the legend goes. 

15: Angron. The blunt object weilding two sharp implements who seems to believe that peace is just one of those things you leave your enemy in. He`s not a strong speller, clearly.

16: Mortarion. He thinks he`s hardcore because he can drink poison. Guess what, so can every other primarch and space marine! How incredible is that?!

17: Johnson. _Nobody must know my secret. I`m too epic for anyone to know my secret. I like to see my sons wearing dresses._ Honestly, there is no appeal to me here.

18: Rogal Dorn. ... Yeah, what? 

19: Khan. Again, nothing about this guy stands out to me. He just seems to be another background character who fills the roles not important enough for anyone else.

20: Whoever the last guy is. Tinkers with toys or some such crap.


----------



## M3N0N26

Chompy Bits said:


> What?! How the fuck did Malcador not die? He should be a pile of pulp after getting punched by a primarch.


No clue, then again it was implied that Lorgar was physically weaker than most of his brothers, and Malcador wasn't really the average human, he kinda went flying back, heard some bones break and then got up and summoned the emperor to commence ass kicking. Was all rather epic really.


----------



## Angel of Blood

It was more of a bitch slap than an actual punch, batting him aside as an afterthought. I wouldn't really have expected him to die from it really.


----------



## MEQinc

M3N0N26 said:


> No clue, then again it was implied that Lorgar was physically weaker than most of his brothers, and Malcador wasn't really the average human, he kinda went flying back, heard some bones break and then got up and summoned the emperor to commence ass kicking. Was all rather epic really.


The Emperor's arrival was epic. Lorgar's tantrum was not. Seriously, trying to claim that physically lashing out at people because they're telling you bad things is his Crowning Moment of Awesome just makes him seem really pathetic. His battle with Corax is more Awesome, and he loses. But it's awesome because he KNOWS he's going to lose and he fights anyway because he can't stand his sons dying. Awesome. Obviously the Night Haunter's arrival is more awesome, but that man just oozes awesome. Just standing there he would be awesome. Cause he's batman.


----------



## gen.ahab

Night Haunter: Batman with a dissociative disorder, paranoia, and daddy issues.


----------



## M3N0N26

I love the way Corax was all like "yeah ima kick ur butt lorgar dieeeee" and then Konrad just steps up and is like "not today child, piss off " haha


----------



## Angel of Blood

I still think Corax could give Kurze ago, maybe even beat him, as the HH goes on it's becoming more apaprent that Corax and Khan who before have had very little on them are some of the best in combat. Corax obviously isn't going to try and fight Kurze with Lorgar right there aswell and fresh from his fight with Lorgar.


----------



## Imperial Valor

What book is this Corax vs Lorgar fight in? I'm curious to hear more now.

Rough List: (epic moment) Top 3

1.Magnus, mind raped a Titan, saddest thing I've ever read when he was forced to Chaos
2.Sanguinius, fought off wave after wave of chaos on his own during the battle of Terra, then broke a guys bak over his knee.
3.Kruze, The Primarch who was a serial killer as a child.


----------



## MEQinc

Imperial Valor said:


> What book is this Corax vs Lorgar fight in? I'm curious to hear more now.


_First Heretic_ during the Drop Site Massacre.


----------



## Angel of Blood

To say Corax is badass, doesn't quite say it at all, in particular his awsome fighting technique


----------



## MuSigma

In Order of favourite moments involving Primarchs.

Lorgar fighting Corax was excellent (I am so sick of hearing that he got his ass kicked like a wussy). All the other forces fled from Corax except WB's then Lorgar used his latent psychic he had contempt for and put corax on his back, then he fought corax to a standstill (between aguably the best melee fighter primarch and the worst), broke one of coraxs power claws, then from a feignt corax shoved a power claw into Lorgars guts - and rammed it deeper and deeper so that Lorgars intestines were spilling out, still no tears from wussy Lorgar - nope - he took it stood up and headbutted Corax in the face several times, then Kurze comes along and steps in and calls Lorgar pathetic, Lorgar then picks his own intestines up and walks off. Lorgar a wuss, no, bad writing made him look so.

Magnus for making Russ's honour guard kneel - then leading them into battle against a chaos demon and titans.

Rogal Dorn - kicking the door down to most secret place in Terra to find Malcador and other assassin guild leaders in cloaks and masks and orders them to take em off.

Magnus and sons holding back a large force of wolves from booking burning a dying city and saving its knowledge.

Not many are there - 

Least favourite Primarch moment.

A close tie between Fulgrim and Horus and Lorgar as the lamest excuse for falling to chaos.

Most amusing moment in HH, the 1000 sons arriving on the Planet of Sorcerers and not having a clue where they were. Not the expecting devil pact making moment of a legion entering the service of dark gods. Much wandering round scratching their heads. Not even a dark meet and greet liason officer. Not even a note on the fridge.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Ah yes, Dorn kicking in the door of the most secret place on Terra earns him a crowning moment of awsome too. Well reminded


----------



## MuSigma

Angel of Blood said:


> Ah yes, Dorn kicking in the door of the most secret place on Terra earns him a crowning moment of awsome too. Well reminded


Its the contempt of a warrior Primarch for any kind of cowardly assassination especially of another Primarch, even in war, its the vindication Konrad Curze mentions when an assassin seeks him out, and makes an excellent point. 

Malcador also uses the same reason Curze does, that the Emperor condones it (as long as he doesnt know about). Malcador and his assassins and his schemes are what possibley sent Curze over the edge.

Kurze seems to come over a lot better than the chaos fallers because his rebelliousness is political and nothing to do with chaos. He even fights with the conflicting sides of his own nature, much more than the chaos fallers, which makes him look much more believable. Everyone seems to think Curze is mad, just because he has doubts and regrets, while the other fallen Primarchs have no moments of true pathos or doubt making them look shallow and impulsive, incapable of asking them selves if they are doing right the right thing.

Thats why I think of them as pathetic, the never realy soul search them selves and their reason for rebelling - its just so lacking in the drama such a fall deserves.


----------



## Jerushee

As others have stated already, lorgar fought Corax to an equal standstill, broke one of his powerclaws, and completely destroyed Corax nose and face. However it is true Corax ripped out his intestines by ramming his claw repeatedly into Lorgar, higher and higher up his torso, and scarred his face.

But the fact remains Lorgar fought one of the best melee fighting primarchs, while he being of the worst. Although one must consider how much his latent psyker abilities were playing a role in that match, as they were described indirectly several times in different passages.

However, once Haunter showed up, Corax fled as fast as he could which makes tactical sense, and the fact that even Horus has been confirmed (white dwarf) as saying Kruze was the only primarch he never fought in hand to hand combat when training the rest.


----------



## MuSigma

I just get pissed off with childish remarks about Corax rox and Lorgar suxxors - I personally think he did really well all things considered. He got stuck in fearlessly - he even beat Curze to the fight, none of the other evil Primarchs got into the fight.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Corax regardless still soundly beat Lorgar, one of his weapons damaged and lets face it superficial wounds to his face does not equal Lorgar almost beating him or doing very well. His psychic scream didn't really do anything to Corax either, he just shouted right back and charged in. Simple fact is Lorgar would have died without Kurze saving him, and if he did Corax would still have been good to carry on, and he did so. End result for Corax was, one lightning claw disabled, and his face a bit of a mess, but nothing serious at all, whilst still having all his limbs, and body parts in working order, one lightning claw still left and an electro-whip capable of cutting Terminators in half like they were made of paper. Lorgar out up a valiant and brave fight, but he achived nothing in the end apart from earning even more contempt from Kurze


----------



## MEQinc

Angel of Blood said:


> Corax regardless still soundly beat Lorgar, one of his weapons damaged and lets face it superficial wounds to his face does not equal Lorgar almost beating him or doing very well. His psychic scream didn't really do anything to Corax either, he just shouted right back and charged in. Simple fact is Lorgar would have died without Kurze saving him, and if he did Corax would still have been good to carry on, and he did so. End result for Corax was, one lightning claw disabled, and his face a bit of a mess, but nothing serious at all, whilst still having all his limbs, and body parts in working order, one lightning claw still left and an electro-whip capable of cutting Terminators in half like they were made of paper. Lorgar out up a valiant and brave fight, but he achived nothing in the end apart from earning even more contempt from Kurze


Quoted for complete and absolute truth. 

It's an awesome moment for Lorgar, not because he does alright (cause he really doesn't) but because he KNOWS he's going to lose/die and fights ANYWAY. 



Jerushee said:


> However, once Haunter showed up, Corax fled as fast as he could which makes tactical sense, and the fact that even Horus has been confirmed (white dwarf) as saying Kruze was the only primarch he never fought in hand to hand combat when training the rest.


Also quoted for truth. You don't fuck with Night Haunter. That man will kill you, training or not.


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## M3N0N26

Another passage I loved in _The First Heretic_ was when describing the children and their pods, how Night Haunter instinctively grabbed a piece of broken glass from the pod and used it as a weapon.

What a legend you are Mr. Curze.


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## brother snarf

one question... ...cookies??????????????????


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## Chompy Bits

All this makes me wonder what Angron would have done if he was there with Haunter, as Corax seemed pretty shit scared of fighting him. 

And now for a bit of a joke list, Primarch forum posters:

1. Corax - Obviously. He's gonna ninja the shit out of everyone else.

2. Magnus - Just seems like he'd probably have a lot so say about everything.

3. Sanguinius - He'd be like a forum moderator, trying to keep the peace between people. He'd also use a lot of smileys.

4. Night Haunter - Could probably make a thread and hold both sides of the discussion.

5 - 6. Guilliman & Dorn - I think they'd be good discussion starters.

7 - 10. Ferrus, Perturabo, Mortarion & Vulkan. They'd just make up the masses.

11. Alpharius/Omegon - They'd probably always be in invisible mode, merely observing what the other primarchs write. Thus, not very good contributors.

12. The Khan - He'd continuously go off topic trying to tell people about his awesome new motorcycle. Would probably still make a few contributions.

13. Horus - He'd just post continuously just so that he'd feature more than the other primarchs would.

14. The Lion - You'd never understand what the fuck any of his posts meant as he would be too afraid to reveal too much info.

15. Lorgar - He'd get all whiny after repeatedly getting ninja'd by Corax.

16. Russ - He'd probably get banned pretty quickly because he'd call others out on their bullshit without obeying forum rules.

17. Fulgrim - He'd just be an annoying yes man who easily bends to other's opinions.

18. Angron - He can type?


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## Jerushee

Makes you wonder why corax was so scared of fighting angron, when corax is reputed as one of the best cqc fighters. Could be that his goal was to escape, and even if he fought and beat angron (who would likely have squads with him), he would be so wounded after he would have chance of escaping.


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## Angel of Blood

Chompy Bits said:


> All this makes me wonder what Angron would have done if he was there with Haunter, as Corax seemed pretty shit scared of fighting him.
> 
> And now for a bit of a joke list, Primarch forum posters:
> 
> 1. Corax - Obviously. He's gonna ninja the shit out of everyone else.
> 
> 2. Magnus - Just seems like he'd probably have a lot so say about everything.
> 
> 3. Sanguinius - He'd be like a forum moderator, trying to keep the peace between people. He'd also use a lot of smileys.
> 
> 4. Night Haunter - Could probably make a thread and hold both sides of the discussion.
> 
> 5 - 6. Guilliman & Dorn - I think they'd be good discussion starters.
> 
> 7 - 10. Ferrus, Perturabo, Mortarion & Vulkan. They'd just make up the masses.
> 
> 11. Alpharius/Omegon - They'd probably always be in invisible mode, merely observing what the other primarchs write. Thus, not very good contributors.
> 
> 12. The Khan - He'd continuously go off topic trying to tell people about his awesome new motorcycle. Would probably still make a few contributions.
> 
> 13. Horus - He'd just post continuously just so that he'd feature more than the other primarchs would.
> 
> 14. The Lion - You'd never understand what the fuck any of his posts meant as he would be too afraid to reveal too much info.
> 
> 15. Lorgar - He'd get all whiny after repeatedly getting ninja'd by Corax.
> 
> 16. Russ - He'd probably get banned pretty quickly because he'd call others out on their bullshit without obeying forum rules.
> 
> 17. Fulgrim - He'd just be an annoying yes man who easily bends to other's opinions.
> 
> 18. Angron - He can type?


Angron is a flamer, through and through. Alpharius and Omegon trolls, just to stir things up, Alpharius posts a troll thread, Omegon replies to bait others in or vice versa ^^


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## M3N0N26

lmfao i love the whole "Angron can type???" and Angel of Blood you just made Alpharius Omegon so much cooler with that post  Trolls ftw


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## Chompy Bits

Angel of Blood said:


> Angron is a flamer, through and through.


No way. There's no 'flame' button on a keyboard.


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## Angel of Blood

Chompy Bits said:


> No way. There's no 'flame' button on a keyboard.


He'll have Kharn type it out for him


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## Master WootWoot

My three favourites is Dorn, Horus and Lorgar.


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## Wusword77

brother snarf said:


> one question... ...cookies??????????????????


Whats wrong with cookies? I love cookies, I'll bet the Emperor enjoyed them as well. :laugh:

I used cookies in the place of how much they wanted the Emperors praise. They are also much more tasteful


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## Scyfus

Fulgrim took out papa smurf and ferrus from what I recall, but its been a while. Only one to kill not only one, but TWO primarchs and he still lives, and this is in spite of the fact he didnt have alot of geneseed.


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## xNoPityx

Primarchs Strongest to weakest:

1. Horus- I really hate horus, he betrayed the imperium because his daddy left him to do the job he was created for, leading armies. But he killed one primarch, killed him so badly that his sons were warped and mutated, and he reduced the emperor of mankind to nothing.

2. Fulgrim- He killed not one, but two primarchs. Just cause he looks like a sissy doesn't mean he is a sissy.

3. Leman Russ- He broke Magnus's back and sent him running into the arms of chaos, and I'm pretty sure Magnus is the biggest primarch.

4. Lion El'Johnson- He knocked out Russ. Russ had already stopped fighting but he still did it.

5. Roboute Guilliman- He fought on even terms with Fulgrim even after his ascension. He lost of course but I think it still counts.

6. Almost everybody else- Most of the rest of the primarchs have no defining factors that put them above the rest. Until more is written I'm going to say they are about equal.

7. Mortarion- He is supposed to be so thin he is almost a skeleton, he may be a really good fighter but in terms a physical strength he is one of the lowest.

8. Lorgar- He says himself he is not a warrior. He's a scholar, or in other words, a pansy.


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## Angel of Blood

Scyfus said:


> Fulgrim took out papa smurf and ferrus from what I recall, but its been a while. Only one to kill not only one, but TWO primarchs and he still lives, and this is in spite of the fact he didnt have alot of geneseed.





xNoPityx said:


> 2. Fulgrim- He killed not one, but two primarchs. Just cause he looks like a sissy doesn't mean he is a sissy


Well technically Fulgrim didn't kill Guilliman. By the point he faced Guilliman he was likely utterly insane in a small corner of his mind whilst the deamon was in full control of everything else and his body long since changed into a monstorous multi limbed, serpentine form. So yeah, Ferrus yes, but even then the deamon sword gave him an edge i reckon. But Guilliman, nothing to do with him


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## M3N0N26

Well in the fight against Ferrus, it's written that Ferrus pressed fireblade down towards Fulgrim's face and was going to kill him, when Fulgrim drew the daemon sword that infused him with the power to kill Ferrus. Really I think they were quite even, Ferrus would have won at Istvaan V were it not for the daemon sword, and Fulgrim defeated Ferrus in his chamber...even then it was tight as Ferrus broke fireblade in his hands and both were thrown back. The more distraught Ferrus was just unable to recover as quickly as his brother as he was in anguish.


My list would be Primarchs in Close Quarter fighting:

1. Leman Russ - I do not like him as a Primarch, but when making this list one must consider his a) brute strength (Lifted Magnus, described as the largest primarch, and broke him over his back) and b) his brawler instinct (was bruised and bloody but still had the instinct to take out Magnus when he had the opportunity)

2. Corax - Described as one of the best in CQC, owned Lorgar at Istvaan, generally looked fearless

3. Horus Lupercal - Has to be put on the list, destroyed Sanguinius (albeit infused with chaos powers), saved the Emperor from a giant Warboss and fatally wounded the Emperor.

4. Sanguinius - Held the Eternity gate alone, beat the greatest (or one of the greatest) bloodthirsters in existence Kaban'dah? (something like that lol) and broke him over his back.

5. Angron - Thnx to Gree, apparently Angron was one of the best in CQC and was only bested by Horus and Sanguinius

6. Konrad Kurze - The guy wtfpwnt Dorn, made Corax run with his tail between his legs at Istvaan (my opinion lol, even though it was better tactically to retreat for corax, the way it was written just made it seem like Kurze literally knew he'd win if he fought him and grew up on his own, with nothing but survival instinct. Id presume he would be v.good at CQC. 


7. Fulgrim - Judging by the book he was good in CQC, defeated Ferrus at Istvaan V, wtfpwnt an Avatar of Khaine and fatally wounded Roboute Gulliman despite being possessed at that point.

8. Ferrus Manus - Placed below Fulgrim as they are close in skill to each other, would have defeated Fulgrim at Istvaan were it not for the demon infused sword of the Laeran, and narrowly lost in his own chamber versus Fulgrim.

9. Lion El Johnson - Fought to a stalemate with the Wolf, worthy of a spot :]

10. Magnus the Red - Gave himself a good account in the fight versus Leman, it was very close and this was with help and distractions from Lemans army + personal wolves.

11-16 - Perturabo, Mortarion, Roboute Gulliman, Vulkan, Alpharius Omegon, Jaghatai Khan -Not much here to say, not much fluff on them in CQC

17. Rogal Dorn - Raped by Konrad Curze when getting on his high horse about taking personal offence with regards to Konrad's visions.

18. Lorgar - The one General who never wanted to be a soldier. Defeated at Istvaan V quite easily, but did show a lot of fight and potential.


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## the Autarch

angron should be a bit higher on the cqc list surely?


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## M3N0N26

Basing it on what? That his legion was a CC Army? I dont think theres much fluff showing Angron CQC vs other Primarchs etc though i might be wrong.


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## Gree

M3N0N26 said:


> Basing it on what? That his legion was a CC Army? That doesn't mean anything for the individual himself. I dont think theres much fluff showing Angron CQC though i might be wrong.


In Raven's Flight Corax claims that only Horus and Sanguinius can beat Angron in combat.


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## M3N0N26

Gree said:


> In Raven's Flight Corax claims that only Horus and Sanguinius can beat Angron in combat.


Word? Hmm better revise the list then


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## Angel of Blood

M3N0N26 said:


> 2. Konrad Kurze - The guy wtfpwnt Dorn, made Corax run with his tail between his legs at Istvaan and grew up on his own, with nothing but survival instinct. Id presume he would be v.good at CQC.


I don't agree with people who seem to think Corax ran the fuck away because he didn't want to face Curze. It made no tactical sense to stay there. He had just owned the fuck out of Lorgar, but any of the Primarchs no matter how good they are would still be fatigued after fighting one of the others, even if it was Lorgar. And then theres now two Primarchs against him. I don't think it would have mattered if it was Perturabo, Alpharius or any of the primarchs that saved Lorgar, Corax still would have bugged out, as facing two would be a absurd choice to make. And we still have no evidence that Curze was an amazing combatent, sure he kicked Dorns ass, but A: we have no idea how good Dorn was B: he took him completley by suprise and i imagine Dorn would be in quite a state of complete shock when he did attack him. Beyond looking scary and sounding scary no other instance shows him to be amazing in close combat, more than the others anyway. I would rank Horus, Angron and Sanguinius above him and based on what we've seen, Corax too.

Also on another note the Khan is said to be a pretty amazing swordsman, need to find the direct quote for it though.


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## M3N0N26

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't agree with people who seem to think Corax ran the fuck away because he didn't want to face Curze. It made no tactical sense to stay there. He had just owned the fuck out of Lorgar, but any of the Primarchs no matter how good they are would still be fatigued after fighting one of the others, even if it was Lorgar. And then theres now two Primarchs against him. I don't think it would have mattered if it was Perturabo, Alpharius or any of the primarchs that saved Lorgar, Corax still would have bugged out, as facing two would be a absurd choice to make. And we still have no evidence that Curze was an amazing combatent, sure he kicked Dorns ass, but A: we have no idea how good Dorn was B: he took him completley by suprise and i imagine Dorn would be in quite a state of complete shock when he did attack him. Beyond looking scary and sounding scary no other instance shows him to be amazing in close combat, more than the others anyway. I would rank Horus, Angron and Sanguinius above him and based on what we've seen, Corax too.
> 
> Also on another note the Khan is said to be a pretty amazing swordsman, need to find the direct quote for it though.



Valid points, i guess Curze at #2 was a little high, but im pretty sure its been referenced that hes pro in CQC. I do remember the khan fluff on his sword skills actually, thanks for reminding me. Ill edit it up a bit in the morning, its 1.58 am atm haha. If i had to revise it now, i would probably have Horus, Corax, Angron, Sanguinius above him as you said. 

Btw with the running away thing, it was the logical thing to do, sure, but the way it read just seemed like he was so daunted by the Night Haunters presence, and the way Konrad was speaking was as though he had no doubt he would be victorious. I dont know, the way it was written just made me think, wow Konrad you beast.


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## Scyfus

I dont agree with Leman russ as number one in CQC. Lion el johnson knocked him out.


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## Angel of Blood

Well in all fairness he dropped his guard entirely and was laughing over how stupid their fight was. Unfortunaetly Jonson did not see the funny side


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## Angelus Censura

I haven't read about the drunken Russ incidents, but just the fact that a Primarch can comfortably get drunk with his Chapter/Legion and do stupid shit launches him into the top 3 for me. I would create a list of Primarchs based on their humour and funny situations, but I haven't read enough of the HH books to have that knowledge, have so far just read here and there at random according the the Legion portrayed rather than in order like a normal person. 

If anyone has insight as to the more humorous sides to the Primarchs (if any), that would make for a cool list. And once again, I'm sure Angron will be at the bottom.

Hmm, 100th post.


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## M3N0N26

Scyfus said:


> I dont agree with Leman russ as number one in CQC. Lion el johnson knocked him out.


Lol i could knock my dad out if he was sitting there laughing at me, doesn't mean he wouldn't kick my ass had he been trying :]


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## Androxine Vortex

Here's a list of the 3 best Epic Fails

#3 Mortarion
You put your entire trust in your right hand man, and he gave you and your whole Legion the ONE disease that could hurt you. Ironic isn't it?

#2 Magnus
You got caught using magic so you were told not to do so anymore OR ELSE. Then you did it to warn your father but failed and sent your Legion to their death. (and also, Leman Russ was the Space Wolves Primarch. Magnus' name also belonged to an ancient Viking King. Ironic who killed you now isn't it?)

#1 Lorgar
You were just told that your entire life's devotion was in vain... in front of your Legion and Guilliman... and have to be baby sat by the Custodes


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## xNoPityx

Angelus Censura said:


> I haven't read about the drunken Russ incidents, but just the fact that a Primarch can comfortably get drunk with his Chapter/Legion and do stupid shit launches him into the top 3 for me. I would create a list of Primarchs based on their humour and funny situations, but I haven't read enough of the HH books to have that knowledge, have so far just read here and there at random according the the Legion portrayed rather than in order like a normal person.
> 
> If anyone has insight as to the more humorous sides to the Primarchs (if any), that would make for a cool list. And once again, I'm sure Angron will be at the bottom.
> 
> Hmm, 100th post.


Leman and Saguinius seems like the only ones you could have a casual conversation with. Maybe horus before he got all chaosy.


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## M3N0N26

Androxine Vortex said:


> Here's a list of the 3 best Epic Fails
> 
> #3 Mortarion
> You put your entire trust in your right hand man, and he gave you and your whole Legion the ONE disease that could hurt you. Ironic isn't it?
> 
> #2 Magnus
> You got caught using magic so you were told not to do so anymore OR ELSE. Then you did it to warn your father but failed and sent your Legion to their death. (and also, Leman Russ was the Space Wolves Primarch. Magnus' name also belonged to an ancient Viking King. Ironic who killed you now isn't it?)
> 
> #1 Lorgar
> You were just told that your entire life's devotion was in vain... in front of your Legion and Guilliman... and have to be baby sat by the Custodes


I think Fulgrim getting locked in his own mind > #3 lol


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## Cowlicker16

My list for best Legion symbols(post heresy)
1-Alpha Legion; Hydras are awesome
2-Emperor's Children; Love the evil looking talon
3-Black Legion; the eye sees all
4-Night Lords; only skull to not look too cliche'
5-Salamanders; it's a freakin DRAGON!!
6-Thousand Suns; Dragon again but eating itself reminds me of the game Snake
7-Space Wolves; I guess I'm just an animal guy
8-Word Bearers; Evil demon guy just looks cool
9-World Eaters; Thats right just take it all in
10-Blood Angels; Red Bull gave it wings
11-Dark Angels; Flying swords...nuff said
12-Iron Warriors; cool helmet
13/14-Imperial Fists/Iron Hands; for hands they don't look too bad I guess
15-Death Guard; you focus on death and all you have is a diseased triangle?
16-White Scars
17-Ultramarines; like I said, skulls are cliche
18-Raven Guard; just bland


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## Gree

Androxine Vortex said:


> #2 Magnus
> You got caught using magic so you were told not to do so anymore OR ELSE. Then you did it to warn your father but failed and sent your Legion to their death. (and also, Leman Russ was the Space Wolves Primarch. Magnus' name also belonged to an ancient Viking King. Ironic who killed you now isn't it?)


Except Russ never killed Magnus. The back breaking did hurt yes, but Magnus escaped and became a Daemon Prince.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Well, he was certainly going to kill him. Magnus was very clearly fucked without the intervention of Tzeentch


----------



## Barnster

Tzeentch had been there from the beginning, and he could have killed every single space wolf with a single word

"30k when chaos gods were cool"


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## xNoPityx

Gree said:


> Except Russ never killed Magnus. The back breaking did hurt yes, but Magnus escaped and became a Daemon Prince.


The fact remains that Russ kicked his ass and forced tzeench to come get him. Its not like he could have moved with a broken back, he didn't escape on his own. He probably wasn't paralyzed being a primarch but I'm sure he would have been imoblized awhile.


----------



## Gree

xNoPityx said:


> The fact remains that Russ kicked his ass and forced tzeench to come get him. Its not like he could have moved with a broken back, he didn't escape on his own. He probably wasn't paralyzed being a primarch but I'm sure he would have been imoblized awhile.


I was not questioning that fact at all. I was questioning the assertion thar Russ killed Magnus. Which he did not.



Angel of Blood said:


> Well, he was certainly going to kill him. Magnus was very clearly fucked without the intervention of Tzeentch


Was it Tzeentch? A Thousand Sons is rather vague on wheter it was Tzeentch or wheter Magnus simply teleported.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Gree said:


> Was it Tzeentch? A Thousand Sons is rather vague on wheter it was Tzeentch or wheter Magnus simply teleported.


Well, the way I read it, and I could be wrong, it seemed that Tzeentch gave him the boost he needed to accomplish the feat. I think Ahriman still mentioned that when Magnus finally came out to face Russ that he seemed more powerful than ever. But like I said, that's just how I saw it.


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## Scholtae

My list is in order of most tragic moment.

1.The death of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrims epiffeny

2.The fall of Magnus and council of Nikaea

3.The death of Sanguinis

4.The Night Haunter ... nuff said

5.The humliliation of Logar

6.The choice of Alphirus/Omegon

Can't realy think of any other particularly tragic experiences.


----------



## Barnster

I always wondered whether after prospero when the emperor found out that Horus was a lying traitor, he thought maybe i was a bit harsh on Magnus, maybe he only was doing what he thought was best for the imperium


----------



## xNoPityx

Barnster said:


> I always wondered whether after prospero when the emperor found out that Horus was a lying traitor, he thought maybe i was a bit harsh on Magnus, maybe he only was doing what he thought was best for the imperium


No, because he's a zombie.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Scholtae said:


> My list is in order of most tragic moment.
> 
> 1.The death of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrims epiffeny
> 
> 2.The fall of Magnus and council of Nikaea
> 
> 3.The death of Sanguinis
> 
> 4.The Night Haunter ... nuff said
> 
> 5.The humliliation of Logar
> 
> 6.The choice of Alphirus/Omegon
> 
> Can't realy think of any other particularly tragic experiences.


Rogal Dorn finding the near dead Emperor and his dead brother? ^^


----------



## M3N0N26

Scholtae said:


> My list is in order of most tragic moment.
> 
> 1.The death of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrims epiffeny
> 
> 2.The fall of Magnus and council of Nikaea
> 
> 3.The death of Sanguinis
> 
> 4.The Night Haunter ... nuff said
> 
> 5.The humliliation of Logar
> 
> 6.The choice of Alphirus/Omegon
> 
> Can't realy think of any other particularly tragic experiences.



Drop Site Massacre, the 3 loyalist primarchs watching their legions being utterly destroyed in a sandwich of betrayal


----------



## Angel of Blood

Scholtae said:


> My list is in order of most tragic moment.
> 
> 1.The death of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrims epiffeny
> 
> 2.The fall of Magnus and council of Nikaea
> 
> 3.The death of Sanguinis
> 
> 4.The Night Haunter ... nuff said
> 
> 5.The humliliation of Logar
> 
> 6.The choice of Alphirus/Omegon
> 
> Can't realy think of any other particularly tragic experiences.


The loyalists on Istvaan III realising they have been betrayed by their own Legions, as said the dropsite massacre on Istvaan V and Dorn finding Sanguinius dead and the Emperor crippled. Horus fall to chaos? Luther and Jonson battling it out with neither being able to finish each other off.


----------

