# Are lesser Daemons worth taking in a CSM army?



## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Title says it all. 

How well do they play, if at all well? Are they worth the effort of buying and then maybe rarely using?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Depends on what the rest of your army is made of, and what your fighting. I will elaborate later, but seriously lesser daemon are one of those they can do well cases where it takes planning to use them right. Also they aren't really a take all comers kind of unit like a basic SM, since they will get murdered to things with a higher I do to a poor save, and will generally do badly outside of CC because of their lack of a ranged attack, and sub par save.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

They are always worth considering for three reasons:

1. They can deepstrike without scattering (thanks to icons) AND can charge in the same turn, meaning you get 30 attacks for that 10 Daemon strong 130pt squad.

2. They are great at and cheap for objective camping. They cost 130pts for ten and they have a 5+ Invulnerable save, which although not great, can be improved by going to ground and/or cover saves. Also because they are fearless you have to kill ALL of them to remove them from an objective.

3. Chaos is expensive. I stand by the 1 Troop choice per 500pts rule. So 1000pts = 2 Troops, 1500pts = 3 Troops etc. In 1500 - 2000pt games I use one or two 10 man Daemon squads as my other troop choices (along with two standard 10 man squads). Doing so saves me around 250pts that I can then spend on the better Elite, HQ, or Heavy Support sections of the codex.

Overall it just depends on your army list. For me they fill a much needed role, for other lists they will not be useful. Just depends really.


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## Schizofen (Mar 11, 2009)

I take them quite a lot, usually just one or two squads of 5. They make a nice cheap squad for taking/reinforcing objectives while the rest of the army advances, and I find it's just useful to have a unit that can reliably drop down and charge something in an emergency (if they turn up, of course). As the others suggested, they're not the greatest unit ever, but they fill a roll quite well.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

They're... ok.
Not as good as they used to be, so I sold all of mine and put the points elsewhere.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

They're excellent objective campers, as the 5+ allows them to squat in cover, and even if the no cover patterns pop up, they have a chance of saving. Also, they're troops arriving later in the game to take tactical advantage.


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

I've never thought of taking them. But D-A-C has me wondering...

I already have a unit of 10 Daemonettes for my (not starting for a while) Daemons army. Wouldn't be hard to assemble them and use them as Lesser Daemons.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Honestly, if you're going for pure efficiency, don't take them. Their benefits (accurate deepstrike, assault out of DS) are outweighed by their flaws (poor save, no special CC).

They can be used effectively against certain lists, but in a take-all-comers scenario they will be dead weight more often than not.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

lol daemons nothing will make a Tau player shit his pants then a shit load of lesser daemons deepstriking and assualting in the same turn.
I used to run a 100 daemon list. 2 lash princes 6 5man chaos marine troops in rhinos with icon of chaos glory and a melta.and the rhinos have meltas too. You put them to start at the 12 inch mark of deployment. First turn you move the rhinos up 12 inches and pop smoke. then on the second turn roll for reservers. move the rhinos up 12 inches towards your targets. if the first wave cam in on the 2 turn you lash things towards them. If they can assualt then get ready to lose a lot. but useually at that point your enemy is targetting the shit at the rhinos because if they didnt stop you by then they know they are fucked. because the rest of your 10 squads are going to be at the heart of their army, and all they can do is hope that they get far enough away that my lash cant get them close enough to the daemons. Overall i love lesser daemons and would only suggest them if you field 2 daemon princes with lash, because a lot of the time you want those daemons in combat the first turn you bring them on the table. Also you want to field at the minimum of 100 daemons. 10squads of 10. They only lost once and that was because we were playing a campain and the guy i was playing was running a deathwing dark angels army and he had the veteran ability feel no pain on 2 of his squads. Daemons cant handle anything with that gear. T5 with feel no pain is a real bitch. sorry for this long blob of a post but i was typing rally fast and didnt proff read or show any education by paragraphing.


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## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

If you want to take some Lessers take them in small amounts. A few to grab an objective late in the game. Never run them in large numbers since it seems the more you grab the worse they get.


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

I've had good luck with them. Once in a 2000 pt chaos vs 'nids battle I took 2 units of lesser daemons along with a summoned greater daemon; I was losing until they came in, changed the course of the battle in my favor. so ya they can be pretty handy in certain situations


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

They make good shock troops and great for diversionary tactics. Move in close and drop these vanilla flavored guys in. I can almost 9 out 10 times your opponents wil go oh shit and begin shooting at them like crazy to buy enuff time to get you more evil units in closer to bring hit them hard. 

CSM is a very mobile force even on the nurgle side. They can so many special weapons that even a normal sqaud can even do a massive amount of damage. As far as CC they get more attacks in the charge than joe blow the ultramarine so they can instigate a charge effectivly aginst mor minor troops out there. Daemons can simply add to this mobility and help Obj. holding. Although if Obj. holding is the name of the game anything nurgle will hold better than a bunch genaric daemons. They are not designed like the old days where they could trully overpower an enemy but can be use to good effectivness. One think to consider is try field butt loads of them. Move in close and just start releasing them all over the place and bring some good heavy support and watch as you opponent scrables to make sense of the battlefield. Be sure not tell him before th game starts that ur bringin buttloads vanilla ice scream.(hey be a word bearer basically)


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Kinda surprised more people aren't jumping to defend them. Used correctly, I think that they are one of the best scoring units in the game. They can provide something that no other unit in the game can provide, an unbalanced aplication of force at the generals discretion and without the inertia of movement or the randomness of scatter. In layman's terms: They go where I think they can be the most usefull when they come on.

If I need some shock troops while assaulting, bam they show up and assault harder than a squad of codex marines. If I am staying back and shooting, they can become a nice screening force. If I am moving my entire army at my opponents I can leave a couple of squads behind to hold objectives. they also work great against deathstar units that use a lot of power weapons because of their standard invulnerable saves. 

I don't think you should just take a couple of squads...I think you should take six. They don't count against force organization so take as many as you can fit in. Taking alot means that a bunch will come down on turn 2 and you probably be dropping one or two squads a turn until turn 4-5.

I use mine in small squads because it forces the opponent to split fire between different squads if he catches them in the open. They are fearless so I am not worried about them breaking. Also if I just need objective babysitters than I am using the minimal amount of points. Since I run so many squads I can still expect a sizable force to come down together. 

Now a couple of caveats. Yes you need to support them with icons. I like at least 3-4 icons on the field to utilize them correctly. Pick a squad to be assualty (berserkers, terminators, whatever) and know that they will usually be at the forefront of your army. If on turn two you decide you need help up front, you'll have an icon ready. Also, pick a squad to be more shooty (plague marines, havocs, whatever) and know that they will be trailing behind your main army. That way if you need objective babysitters you have your icon ready. Another great use is responding if your getting flanked. If an enemy turns the corner and has a clear lane to your havocs you can pop a squad or two down to block or tarpit.

Lastly, understand that they are not great sustained assault troops. After the first round of assaults the start to suck bad. The lack of power weapons, the crappy saves, and the no retreat rule starts to add up. If you have to win combat, just try and attack with a group of 10-15 not a group of 5.

Rix


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## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

I run about 30 total in 2000 point games, they are nice for objectives and distracting grey knight termies for a turn or two.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I can't stand them. I'd rather buy a rhino for a squad than have a squad of lessers as a counter assault unit. They're so random when they come in that you never know if they are gonna be where you want them to. Generally any points you would spend on lessers could be put to better use somewhere else


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> They're so random when they come in that you never know if they are gonna be where you want them to.


What do you mean? They have to come in off of an Icon so they will be exactly where you need them. 

Also, what does your Raptorwing consist off, besides raptors.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> I can't stand them. I'd rather buy a rhino for a squad than have a squad of lessers as a counter assault unit. They're so random when they come in that you never know if they are gonna be where you want them to. Generally any points you would spend on lessers could be put to better use somewhere else


I think this is a perfect example of someone taking one squad and them dismissing them as pointless. One squad will not get you far (especially a small squad). Try at least 5 once...I think you will find that the randomness is greatly reduced and they become a lot more survivabe as the opponent will have a lot more to shot at.

Rix


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

5? That's, like, practically your whole troops allowance right there.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep, and also means your troops have no shooting what so ever from your troops. look at the pros vs cons.

Marine= 3+armor, frag+krak grenades, bolter+BP+special weapons (That can kill tanks, clear infantry, or hurt MC's.), can be loaded into rhino making them 100% faster, and more survivable.
L Daemons= two points cheaper, can avoid being shot at by deep striking to assault (however is random, and can come on turn 3-4 after all your stuff is dead or your enemy has fallen back to avoid DS assault). 5+ inv save. No grenades (Area terrain assault with 5+inv = suicide).

In other words they are a support dedicated assault unit that is situational at best, anyone who strongly recommends large numbers of them is clearly not thinking competitively and should be ignored in respects to evaluating the usefulness of L Daemons.

However they are far from rubbish, and are useful in semi large units in support of other more capable units. (If you assault into cover even against guard you should expect to lose 3-4 L daemon before you can fight). Also keep in mind if your playing a all cult army the necessary icons will run up the cost of the L Daemons to the regular cost of a marine so no net gain there.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Mostly because they're pretty bad.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I think some of you forgot that they dont count on the force organization chart.

They are considered troops for scoring purposes but do not count towards the ary which mean if you wanted to field a bar bones lord and two small CSM squads and the rest just daemons you can. I would highly avoid doin somthing silly like that but might make a fun game none the less.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

I could rant about how L Daemons are silly, but Luke Valentine seems to have made all my points for me.

They can be good if you take 2-3 semi-large units of them in large point matches, but they should never factor into your "do i have enough troops choices" calculations.

When it comes down to it, they are Marines with a bad save, no ranged weapon, no grenades, and no upgrade options. For that, you get the ability to assault out of Deep Strike. They are purely an auxiliary unit, and you shouldn't devote any points to them until you have all your other bases covered.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> I think this is a perfect example of someone taking one squad and them dismissing them as pointless. One squad will not get you far (especially a small squad). Try at least 5 once...I think you will find that the randomness is greatly reduced and they become a lot more survivabe as the opponent will have a lot more to shot at.
> 
> Rix


I took 2 squads of 10 in a friendly game and they blew my mind with how terrible they were. Sure it's nice to be able to assault the turn you deepstrike in, but they aren't good against anything (except maybe a tactical squad). they're really not even a good tarpit unit because once they start takin wounds that 5+ invul don't help too much.

Considering how expensive most units are in the CSM codex, I've found that wasting the points on lesser deamons doesn't cut it for me. Maybe in a 2500+ pt game and I just need to fill points they would work, but for any kind of competitive game I would never take them


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

They make good diversionary units. IMO they really arne't meant to hit hard but rather help soften the opponents up some or aid in tying up units that otherwise would be a bother while your tring to advance. As I said before the CSM are a very mobile force in order to be successful with them you must exploit that mobility. Now since they are only at like 65pts for 5 of them they arne't to much of a dent in your list. So what if you drop them in and they get mulched just as fast as they dropped. If it makes your opponents focus fire power or fight in CC instead of fireing at one of your more expensive and deadlier units then they have served there purpose. We must remember that shock troops play a key role in many of the armies in 40k and understand that some units were not created to deal massive amounts of damage but rather just distract the opponent.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> I took 2 squads of 10 in a friendly game and they blew my mind with whole terrible they were.


So what part of take 5 squads are people missing here. Having more than a couple completely changes the way they play. If you drop a squad of ten next to another squad, unsupported and alone, yes they will get shot to shit. If you drop 2-3 squads of five next to some berserker your opponent is going to have a tough time figuring out what to shoot.

And I refute the fact that they are to expensive. 5 squads of 5 cost 325 points. Thats five deepstriking squads of scoring units. Here is a quick 30 second list using them:
2x lash prince
2x 7 man plaguemarines with meltas and rhino
1x 8 man Khorne berserkers with a PF champ and a rhino
5x 5 man lesser demons
2x 3 man oblits

There you get all of the chaos goodness and EIGHT scoring units. And they all show up where you want them, back with the plague marines to support objectives, in the opponents face with the bersekers, or left behind as the rest of the squads charge forward.

Rix


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> So what part of take 5 squads are people missing here. Having more than a couple completely changes the way they play. If you drop a squad of ten next to another squad, unsupported and alone, yes they will get shot to shit. If you drop 2-3 squads of five next to some berserker your opponent is going to have a tough time figuring out what to shoot.
> 
> And I refute the fact that they are to expensive. 5 squads of 5 cost 325 points. Thats five deepstriking squads of scoring units. Here is a quick 30 second list using them:
> 2x lash prince
> ...


Solid tactic glad some one sees my point


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> So what part of take 5 squads are people missing here. Having more than a couple completely changes the way they play. If you drop a squad of ten next to another squad, unsupported and alone, yes they will get shot to shit. If you drop 2-3 squads of five next to some berserker your opponent is going to have a tough time figuring out what to shoot.
> 
> And I refute the fact that they are to expensive. 5 squads of 5 cost 325 points. Thats five deepstriking squads of scoring units. Here is a quick 30 second list using them:
> 2x lash prince
> ...


You know what. that list doesn't look half bad actually 

But my personal opinion still stands. I just don't like them. I'd rather get another squad of zerks and upgrade my princes a little more. But i see how that list could work


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Tell you what, i will give them a try. I have enough for 4 squads of 5. I'll give them a shot.


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## connor (Jan 31, 2011)

hhhmmmm well well well guess what!

50th post O YES:victory:


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