# Ezekiel Abaddon?



## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Is he one and the same as Abaddon the Despoiler? namesake? no relation at all? I started Horus Rising today and that is nagging at me bad. Thanks


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Yes he becomes Abaddon the despoiler


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## Cyrion (Apr 17, 2010)

The one and only.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

o..k..., what's with the fluff in the CSM codex saying that Abaddon is thought to possibly be a clone of Horus? Perhaps I 'm remembering it wrong.....if so slap the shit out me now! Thanks


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

he is one of the " sons of horus" luna wolves, as some of the luna wolves bore a striking resemblance to their primarch.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

ok...i get it, would also explain his being the #1 captain on the luna wolves.....


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I think even _Horus Rising_ mentions rumours of him being a cloned son of Horus too at some stage....


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't think it does. Aximand is the one who bears the most resemblance to Horus after all, even being nicknamed Little Horus, but even then i don't think its ever implied any of them are cloned.


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## pb100 (Sep 11, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Don't think it does. Aximand is the one who bears the most resemblance to Horus after all, even being nicknamed Little Horus, but even then i don't think its ever implied any of them are cloned.



If it's not implied in Horus rising it's most certainly mentioned in false Gods or Galaxy in Flames. I'm almost positive it's mentioned in one of them, but I could be wrong.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm almost certain none of the Horus Heresy books make any implication to any of them having been cloned from Horus. Obviously i can't really thoroughly confirm that without reading all of the first 3, but im still pretty sure they don't


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

All the Luna Wolves and later the Sons of Horus are lesser clones of their genefather, or Primogenitor - Horus Lupercal; whether or not they were chosen from the populance of Cythion (Spelling?) or were created from Terra and were the original Luna Wolves (Of whom Iacton Qruze was the last?) However, Horus Aximand, or Little Horus, resembled his genefather even more so than his brothers within the Mournival - Hence the nickname.

I should probably read _Horus Rising_ once more to fully digress what is written there, but... the above is a summarative, albeit slightly crude, account.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Spelling. His name is Ezekyle, not Ezekiel. (EZ-uh-KYLE) 

I don`t recall any mention of cloning in the HH novels, but it was mentioned as a rumour in the previous Chaos Codex (the awesome one that included real daemons). 

Maybe that`s where you saw it?


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

It could be Little Horus actually now that you mention it, but like pb100 I thought it was hinted that Abaddon was a clone in one of the three first hh novels or some vague reference to it. But yeah I have no intention of re reading them either.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> It could be Little Horus actually now that you mention it, but like pb100 I thought it was hinted that Abaddon was a clone in one of the three first hh novels or some vague reference to it. But yeah I have no intention of re reading them either.


It is even mentioned in the current C:CSM that Abaddon may be a clone of Horus.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He isn't a clone of Horus any more than Lokin was.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

It said it was rumors.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

may be a clone? sorry... no. none of the Luna Wolves were 'clones' of Horus. There is nothing in Horus Heresy series so far to say that any of them are. A rumor in a CSM codex does not eclipse the HH series, which is to be considered cannon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> may be a clone? sorry... no. none of the Luna Wolves were 'clones' of Horus. There is nothing in Horus Heresy series so far to say that any of them are. A rumor in a CSM codex does not eclipse the HH series, which is to be considered cannon.


The codices are just as 'canon' as the heresy series, and in fact just as much as anything else with a GW or BL logo printed on it. Just because it hasn't thus far been mentioned in the heresy series (if memory serves) doesn't mean the rumour (which has been around for many years now, passing through several chaos codicies) doesn't mean it should be discredited.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, if he is a Horus clone (and I'm not saying he is), it would make some sense as to why he was so desperate to stop anyone else from cloning Horus after the heresy. Maybe he didn't want the competition of another clone muscling in on what he thought was his rightful inheritance as ruler of the Black Legion. But again, this is pure speculation on my part. Hopefully the Horus Heresy series will shed some light on this at some stage.


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## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

even if it turns out he isnt, its a damn good bet that he planted the rumour in the Imperium. 
Think about it, thats damn good psychological warfare right there, Horus being the proverbal anti-christ to the Imperial High Command and all, the lords of terra probably brick it just thinking about it.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> may be a clone? sorry... no. none of the Luna Wolves were 'clones' of Horus. There is nothing in Horus Heresy series so far to say that any of them are. A rumor in a CSM codex does not eclipse the HH series, which is to be considered cannon.


If anything the Codexes are more cannonical that BL fiction. Considering you read the books for fluff and use the codex for actual gameplay.....

As for the spelling, my bad..... none the less


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Which doesn't make much sense at all. You don't need the fluff to play the game, the BL exsists to provide us with more fluff, the codexs changed fluff at the drop of a hat to better suit the new play style of the army or to make them sound better to get people buying them. The BL books are just as canonical, and the HH ones are the best source of canon for the Heresy since the codexs barely mention it other than the usual same reel everytime without going into the details of it.

I can't see it being possible that Abbadon is a clone of Horus, it would make sense if Aximand was to a slight degree because of the massive resemblance but even then it just seems ludicrous. How would Horus have possibly some up with a method of cloning himself to make Abbadon who fought with him pre-marine era on Cthonia? it's just not possible in my eyes. The myth is probably part propaganda and then again due to the 'sons of horus' thing the legion had. Some imperial citizens heard about the trait of them looking similar to Horus, misinterpreted the information as them being clones and it sprung from their. 

As for Abbadon not wanting Horus cloned. I don't see it as because he is one himself, but more of the fact that Horus failed. He failed to live up to his promises and to the dark gods and didn't kill the Emperor. Abbadon saw him as weak afterwards, even ridding his name from the legions own name. He wouldn't want a clone of the failed and weak 'man'


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I can't see it being possible that Abbadon is a clone of Horus, it would make sense if Aximand was to a slight degree because of the massive resemblance but even then it just seems ludicrous.


How can you be a clone to a slight degree?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

i meant it makes a slight degree of sense if aximand was a clone


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I can't see it being possible that Abbadon is a clone of Horus, it would make sense if Aximand was to a slight degree because of the massive resemblance but even then it just seems ludicrous. How would Horus have possibly some up with a method of cloning himself to make Abbadon who fought with him pre-marine era on Cthonia? it's just not possible in my eyes. The myth is probably part propaganda and then again due to the 'sons of horus' thing the legion had. Some imperial citizens heard about the trait of them looking similar to Horus, misinterpreted the information as them being clones and it sprung from their.


Well maybe the emp got bored and went
"Hey lets make a clone son of my clone son. So people will argue about him."


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Which doesn't make much sense at all. You don't need the fluff to play the game, the BL exsists to provide us with more fluff, the codexs changed fluff at the drop of a hat to better suit the new play style of the army or to make them sound better to get people buying them. The BL books are just as canonical, and the HH ones are the best source of canon for the Heresy since the codexs barely mention it other than the usual same reel everytime without going into the details of it.
> 
> I can't see it being possible that Abbadon is a clone of Horus, it would make sense if Aximand was to a slight degree because of the massive resemblance but even then it just seems ludicrous. How would Horus have possibly some up with a method of cloning himself to make Abbadon who fought with him pre-marine era on Cthonia? it's just not possible in my eyes. The myth is probably part propaganda and then again due to the 'sons of horus' thing the legion had. Some imperial citizens heard about the trait of them looking similar to Horus, misinterpreted the information as them being clones and it sprung from their.
> 
> As for Abbadon not wanting Horus cloned. I don't see it as because he is one himself, but more of the fact that Horus failed. He failed to live up to his promises and to the dark gods and didn't kill the Emperor. Abbadon saw him as weak afterwards, even ridding his name from the legions own name. He wouldn't want a clone of the failed and weak 'man'


I understand your point about the fluff changing willy nilly in the codexes but the fact remains, anything in a codex is "gospil". Period. There is very little room for interpretation.

The BL fiction while great and vouched for by GW as canonical doesn't have the same weight. How many play the game and the only fluff they know comes from the BRB and codexes? 

FYI. I'm playing devil's advocate here, this is a great discussion and I want to keep it going :grin:


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I personally doubt that Abbadon is a clone, is probably just rumours created by a fearful Imperium and/or the Chaos Space marines themselves. Quite possibly derived from their pre/during-heresy name "Sons of Horus" and after 10 millenia it has morphed into the fact that the leader of the legion is a "Son of Horus" i.e. a clone. Or scare tactics by Abbadon/the Black legion in general.

As for the destruction of the clones, I can't find evidence, either in the Chaos codex or in the HH books to implicate that, if he is a clone of Horus, that Abbadon knows he is. And I think you will find that the main reason Abbadon destroyed the clones was partly out of his disdain for his gene father. I mean, think about it, Abbadon basically worshiped Horus, and when he let him down, his love an adoration polarized into hate and disgust. But I believe it was also because most of them were weak and inferior to the genuine article, and Abbadon and the rest of the Black legion found it a besmirching of their legions honour.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> I personally doubt that Abbadon is a clone, is probably just rumours created by a fearful Imperium and/or the Chaos Space marines themselves. Quite possibly derived from their pre/during-heresy name "Sons of Horus" and after 10 millenia it has morphed into the fact that the leader of the legion is a "Son of Horus" i.e. a clone. Or scare tactics by Abbadon/the Black legion in general.
> 
> As for the destruction of the clones, I can't find evidence, either in the Chaos codex or in the HH books to implicate that, if he is a clone of Horus, that Abbadon knows he is. And I think you will find that the main reason Abbadon destroyed the clones was partly out of his disdain for his gene father. I mean, think about it, Abbadon basically worshiped Horus, and when he let him down, his love an adoration polarized into hate and disgust. But I believe it was also because most of them were weak and inferior to the genuine article, and Abbadon and the rest of the Black legion found it a besmirching of their legions honour.


Pretty much what i said, so therefore agree.

I dont see the Codexs as being any more gospel than the black library. BL isn't somewhat affiliated with GW and taken with a pinch of salt, its entirely canonical(with the excpetion of that tool(you all know who i mean!)) I consider the BL to be gospel and carry much more weight than the codexs. They are written by the same people as the codexs, only unlike the codexs they dont have to fix the fluff around the new army, they write it all purely on the fluff with no need to take the tabletop into consideration


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

texcuda said:


> The BL fiction while great and vouched for by GW as canonical doesn't have the same weight. How many play the game and the only fluff they know comes from the BRB and codexes?


It's because most players don't bother reading anything beyond their own codex.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

The Boz said:


> It's because most players don't bother reading anything beyond their own codex.


Thats the point tho,.... the only fluff required is whats in the codexes, nothing more, nothing less.

As for GW's shakiness about fluff and "Fixing" it for new versions of Codexes, thats BS, but I digress


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> i meant it makes a slight degree of sense if aximand was a clone


Oh! That makes more sense.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

texcuda said:


> Thats the point tho,.... the only fluff required is whats in the codexes, nothing more, nothing less


No that's BS. Fluff is an entirely different part of the franchise to me. I for one don't even play tabletop anymore, i know alot of the other people on this board don't either. I'm more interested in the fluff, and to get the best knowledge of the fluff you have to delve into the BL and go beyond the codexs. No fluff is required to play the game, none at all, you literally dont need to know a single thing about the background to play 40k. The codexs in their simplest form and their main reason for existing is for people to play the game, fluff as a result can be over exagerated, twisted, changed and rumours flung into it all over the place to suit the armies new rules like i've said before. But i gurantee, everyone on these boards who had a large fluff knowledge base has read books from the BL and would consider them just as canon as anything else if not more so in some peoples cases.

The Horus Heresy series being one of the most solid examples. Reading the chaos and marine codexs alot of the fluff on the Heresy is still vague and completely differs from the series. Example in point being the Emperors Children, it says that the EC were corrupted after exposure to chaos on Davin, or that Lucius was a fierce assault marine commander earning many scars and promoted to Lord Commander before the Heresy. In point of fact if you have read Fulgrim you know that they were actually corrupted by the Laern and Lucius was not a Lord Commander and that he got his scars first from a duel with Loken and then did them himself after a conversation with a remembrancer. This is canon, full stop, it IS what happened. Not what is said in the Chaos Codex but what is stated in Fulgrim. One of many examples of BL fluff taking precedence over a codex


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Not what is said in the Chaos Codex but what is stated in Fulgrim. One of many examples of BL fluff taking precedence over a codex


Can I just say that that is by no means universally correct. If you choose to take the more in depth analysis of the Heresy which the novel series establishes as precedent over the codicies that is your choice. But officially it is no more correct or 'canon'. Everything with a BL/GW printed on it is equally correct. If an individual wants to take what is says in a codex over what is said in a BL novel that is their choice. In fact for the most part the codicies seem to be the highest point of reference for most hobbyists.



Angel of Blood said:


> BL isn't somewhat affiliated with GW and taken with a pinch of salt, its entirely canonical(with the excpetion of that tool(you all know who i mean!))


See, this is exactly what I mean. You choose to take BL fiction as 'gospel' yet still pick and choose what novels you want to take as official. You ignore C.S. Goto's works (as most people do) because of the massive background clashes he made in his novels, yet their still officially just as canonical as any other BL novel or codex.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

*posting from work*

Remember not to mistake him for _Colin_ Abaddon - Departmento Munitorum Agri-world Bovine Feed Supply Accountant, Third Class - from the Scarus sector. Easy to confuse the two.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Can I just say that that is by no means universally correct. If you choose to take the more in depth analysis of the Heresy which the novel series establishes as precedent over the codicies that is your choice. But officially it is no more correct or 'canon'. Everything with a BL/GW printed on it is equally correct. If an individual wants to take what is says in a codex over what is said in a BL novel that is their choice. In fact for the most part the codicies seem to be the highest point of reference for most hobbyists.
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is exactly what I mean. You choose to take BL fiction as 'gospel' yet still pick and choose what novels you want to take as official. You ignore C.S. Goto's works (as most people do) because of the massive background clashes he made in his novels, yet their still officially just as canonical as any other BL novel or codex.


AAH, thank you. you have a great point in that people will "include" certain books b/c they are more relevant etc. I agree with CotE regarding what is more "cannonical", codex vs BL fiction. I ask this question:

Which came first: the codex fluff or the BL fluff?


edit: for what it's worth I'm working my way through Horus Rising as we have this discussion, probably the largest reason why I asked the original question due to conflicts that have already arisen from what was printed in the SM/CSM codex and the book.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Goto point was a joke. Yes he's a complete retard and screws the fluff up completely but i still at the end of the day take his books as canon. I imagine though if you were to ask any of the head writers or devs of GW how the Emperors Children and Fulgrim were corrupted they would point straight away to Fulgrim. 

The which came first point is moot aswell and hardly a basis over which is now more important after ages of both running alongside each other.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Goto point was a joke. Yes he's a complete retard and screws the fluff up completely but i still at the end of the day take his books as canon. I imagine though if you were to ask any of the head writers or devs of GW how the Emperors Children and Fulgrim were corrupted they would point straight away to Fulgrim.
> 
> The which came first point is moot aswell and hardly a basis over which is now more important after ages of both running alongside each other.


I wouldn't consider 4 years ages, seeing as how Horus Rising was released in 2006. There is another topic running right now on the forum and the discussion is regarding the longest running fluff fiction and i'm pretty sure it was somewhere in the 6-10yr range; no where close to "codex fluff"


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I didnt mean specifcally HH series. Besides its still largely irrelevant, just becomes somethings older doesnt mean it automatically takes precedence. Besides all the new codex superceed the old ones anyway and they are all roughly the age as the BL series of books if not newer


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