# Assassination Option (possible spoilers for Nemesis)



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So, in the book Nemesis we see the capabilities of the older Officio Assassinorum. While it looked like at the time it wasn't at the level it is today, they were more than capable of killing primarchs,especially the Vindicare (not bias,just callin it). You read eventually that the decision was made that it should be aborted so that Horus could face the Emperor in the "light" and honorably. Dorn was for it and so was Horus. Only Erebus and Malcador were for handling this thing in the shadows. If you look at conflicts in the real world and see the effects of wars, how many Jews and others would have been saved if Hitler had been assassinated. 

I believe the Emperor was again an idiot in not to try more and more to assassinate Horus.The Imperium lit into flames and billions killed and now whether side with Horus or not question the ability of the Imperium. What do you think would have been the message to everyone if Horus had suddenly had his head blown off in the middle of a speech or battle?I'll tell you, the Emperor moves in mysterious ways and doesn't fuck around. Why aren't the assassins utilized these days more often. No real primarch threat has surfaced in centuries. I say guys like Huron Blackheart could definitely be taken out. We don't really see any real books about assassins because let's be honest that would mean settling a plot and in the grim dark future NO ONE can die. I'd like to see an assassin series maybe bringing back the idea of an execution force with the purpose of taking down targets that are hard as shit to handle ie Huron Blackheart, Tyhphus the Traveler, Lucius the Eternal, Hive Tyrants or maybe the Swarmlord, Some Dark Eldar characters, you get the picture. I think it would be nice to utilize an option that doesn't involve mass desctruction. If you read Nemesis you know that if he wasn't using the body double Horus would have died.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Yes, but if a major character with a figure to them gets snuffed out in cannon, then it would make every owner of it rather peeved. Which is why I think why none beside redshirt characters only meant to live for a short time will be seen to buy the farm, like Valten the Exalted.


----------



## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> If you look at conflicts in the real world and see the effects of wars, how many Jews and others would have been saved if Hitler had been assassinated.


There were at least 39 assassination atempts on Hitler, the guy was just incredible lucky that not a single one succeeded. 
Many Chaos followers could have this, too, as long as they are considered useful by their patron gods.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> You read eventually that the decision was made that it should be aborted so that Horus could face the Emperor in the "light" and honorably.


That wasn't the only reason. Another reason given in _Nemesis_ is that if Horus was assassinated, it was speculated that the Heresy would have been worse for the Imperium. The traitors would not have reconciled with the Imperium, but would have been much more destructive and dangerous to the wider Imperium and humanity without the initiatives of Horus to direct the rebellion. So says _Nemesis_ anyway. 

There was also the emotional attachment of the Emperor. He wanted to face Horus personally, just as much as Horus wanted to face the Emperor personally.



Deadeye776 said:


> If you look at conflicts in the real world and see the effects of wars, how many Jews and others would have been saved if Hitler had been assassinated.


As someone else said, there were numerous assassination attempts on Hitler - they just all failed. Assassination is a common tactic used in warfare - always has been.



Deadeye776 said:


> Why aren't the assassins utilized these days more often. No real primarch threat has surfaced in centuries. I say guys like Huron Blackheart could definitely be taken out. We don't really see any real books about assassins because let's be honest that would mean settling a plot and in the grim dark future NO ONE can die.


Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Abaddon and Huron (to name two prominent Chaos warlords) would inevitably face assassination attempts all the time, probably just as much from their _'allies'_ as their enemies. Its just all seemed to have failed thus far.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That wasn't the only reason. Another reason given in _Nemesis_ is that if Horus was assassinated, it was speculated that the Heresy would have been worse for the Imperium. The traitors would not have reconciled with the Imperium, but would have been much more destructive and dangerous to the wider Imperium and humanity without the initiatives of Horus to direct the rebellion. So says _Nemesis_ anyway.


Not only this, as Child-of-the-Emperor points out, but consider the damage that final assassination attempt caused in its failure. A whole world in flames, a world that would have been spared were it not for the agents sent out in the Emperor's name.

How many of those failures would you be able to tolerate? Would causing the destruction (or worse) of every human world from Istvaan to Terra be worth it? People are a resource, and the assassins are amongst the better available, how many had to be squandered?


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I can understand the point. However let's get serious. How well did things go after he got waxed by the Emperor? The time he spent had galvanized the traitors. In truth, I think just killing Horus wouldn't have been enough. You would have had to kill Horus,Erebus, Kor Phaeron, Fulgrim,and Curze. With those deaths I believe a majority of the destruction wrough would have been reduced especially the psychological impact. With the crap that the Night Lords, Emperor's Children, and Word Bearer's did the Imperium was fractured pyschologically and fell into the worship of the Emperor for solace and security. 

I wasn't referring to the assassination attempts on Hitler failing. I'm saying that the assassins knew that if they cut the head off the snake, the body would die mostly. While not all of these organizations would work I think a lot would. What would have happened if you killed Horus? The number one threat the warmaster posed was that he was probably the greatest strategist of all the primarchs. His death would have weakened them considerably along with the Chaos support. It wasn't like they were any better with Horus around. War crimes and atrocities still happened en masse. Without him you got the scouring, where the Imperium was able to throw them into the eye....well except for the Night Lords and Alpha Legion. 2 out of 9 still isn't bad. That could have happened a lot earlier with Horus getting his head blown off.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

My question is, did the emperor or Malcador send the assassins after Curze? I believe it was Malcador who sent the assassins after curze, without telling the Emperor.

The emperor I believe wanted Curze brought in alive, not dead.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR DELIVERANCE LOST:







In this novel, though not as strongly as the others, what has happened to the other primarchs....possibly. Corax refers to the "ultimate sanction" open to the Emperor that all are aware of when both he and I believe Dorn are talking about Curze and Angron. I don't believe Malcador does anything "behind" the Emperor's back. He's pretty much aware of everything that occurs whether it's with his blessing or without. Though he may not order it, he allows it to happen. If I remember correctly I thought it was the High Lords of Terra that authorized the assassin clades attempt to terminate Curze.From the sound of it M'shen wasn't the first,as Nemesis showed that others had tried numerous times to kill Horus without success. 

The only Primarch I know the Emperor specifically ordered by brought in alive was Magnus. For the sole reason so he could sit on the throne. I don't believe the Emperor was aware that he ahd sold his soul to Tzeentch previously. In fact, in my opinion Tzeentch played his hand to earlier with Magnus. Could you imagine if Tzeentch had been allowed to sit on the throne AND THEN he called his debt in? A primarch in thrall to a Chaos God sitting on the golden throne controlling the terra webway portal? Russ inadvertantly saved the Imperium by trying to kill him, and actually vicariously by giving the order so did Horus. 

I would like to see some assassin stories go down in 40k. It's a faction we haven't really seen given any light. I'd like to see them utilized more.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Assassinations are described as happening all the time in the Imperium. Troublesome Imperial Governors and traitorous individuals and worlds are brought to heel. Enemies of the Imperium are selectively targeted and eliminated. 

Off the top of my head i can think of a few such actions detailed in the fluff; the attempted assassination of Abaddon before the 13th Black Crusade, an Eversor assassin taking out a cult in the _Let the Galaxy Burn_ anthology, a Vindicare assassin attempting to take out the tainted Cardinal in the Siege of Vraks, another planetary governor being taken out in _Let the Galaxy Burn_, the attempted assassination of a Governor in the Necron codex (the previous one), an Inquisitor bemoaning the lack of an assassin to quell an uprising early in the third ed Space Marine codex and another Governor taken out in _Throne of Lies_.


----------



## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Assassins are one of the most underused things in fluff. Awesome concept, cool/dark characters, and potentially riveting stories. 

What really got me with Imperial Assassins was in Soul Hunter when a Callidus Assassin casually brushes off one "mere" Space Marine as no threat to her.


----------



## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

There's a reason why the Imperium isn't trying hard to assassinate major Chaos figures: sending somebody into a Chaos/realspace rift has a fairly high likelihood of leaving the assassin dead, corrupted, or turned into a semisentient pile of goo long before the assassin gets to where the target is.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Yes, but if a major character with a figure to them gets snuffed out in cannon, then it would make every owner of it rather peeved. Which is why I think why none beside redshirt characters only meant to live for a short time will be seen to buy the farm, like Valten the Exalted.


Yeah cause GW had NO problems snuffing Eldrad during the 13h Black Crusade. Any number of special characters on both sides could have died but no it is the only viable Eldar character that dies (Maugan Ra being immortal and all that shiz).


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

randian said:


> There's a reason why the Imperium isn't trying hard to assassinate major Chaos figures: sending somebody into a Chaos/realspace rift has a fairly high likelihood of leaving the assassin dead, corrupted, or turned into a semisentient pile of goo long before the assassin gets to where the target is.


 


Um, all imperial forces operate on this side most likely and chaos like to play on our side of the ball. Translation? Most of the Chaos targets would be in the materium and there's nothing saying that they couldn't operate in the eye of terror. Uriel Ventris made it out. I'm more than sure the assassins would be able to function there just as well as anyone else who's ever gone in. You have no evidence saying that they are more susceptible than anyone else.In the Ventris novel he met regular guardsman that while weathered were still fighting and functioning on a freaking daemon planet,and still loyal. Don't make up crap beause you think it sounds good. Nowhere does it say that the Eye of Terror is a place you can't operate in,it's waaaaay more difficult but not impossible. If I were talking about the warp that's another thing. Only one guy can do that that I know of. Look up the fluff and you'll find out that your statement is baseless and misguided. The assassins would be able to function in the eye just like the astartes and guardsman who already have.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_@Deadeye_: Everything _randian_ said was logical and reasoned, so get off your high horse. He said that there was a _"fairly high likelihood"_ that an assassin sent into a warp rift against a major Chaos figure would end up dead, corrupted, turned or mutated. That is a perfectly logical statement. He wasn't suggesting that individuals cannot survive or remain loyal within warp rifts, merely pointing out that in all likelihood assassins sent against major Chaos figures who reside in warp rifts would fail (sanctioned Imperial assassins anyway).


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _@Deadeye_: Everything _randian_ said was logical and reasoned, so get off your high horse. He said that there was a _"fairly high likelihood"_ that an assassin sent into a warp rift against a major Chaos figure would end up dead, corrupted, turned or mutated. That is a perfectly logical statement. He wasn't suggesting that individuals cannot survive or remain loyal within warp rifts, merely pointing out that in all likelihood assassins sent against major Chaos figures who reside in warp rifts would fail (sanctioned Imperial assassins anyway).


 


Cote to the rescue. Get off my ass. Everything I said was completely logical and reasoned.They've written books on Imperial forces operating inside the Eye of Terror successfully so yeah, I'm gonna "ride my horse" when someone makes a statement with no fact base. Here's a list:

Capt. Uriel Ventris (Ultramarine)- Dead Sky Black Sun
Sgt. Pasanius Lysane (Ultramarine)-Dead Sky Black Sun
Alaric (Grey Knight)- Hammer of Daemons
2 Imperial Guardsman (names escape me but they were in Dead Sky Black Sun)
Assortment of other Renegade Marines trapped on Medrengard (Dead Sky Black Sun)
Eldar gladiator (Hammer of Daemons)


All of these people and races to a degree or another were operating on these daemon worlds and caused havok against the forces of Chaos. The notion that Assassins would be less successful or it would be a waste is bullshit. Most of the missions the assassins undertake are when imperial forces are not deemed available or viable. They operate alone on hostile planets all over the 40k universe. Obvioulsy any mission to the Eye is highly dangerous but if you look at what it takes to deploy the Officio Assassinorum agents they don't just go after easy targets.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Cote to the rescue. Get off my ass. Everything I said was completely logical and reasoned.They've written books on Imperial forces operating inside the Eye of Terror successfully so yeah, I'm gonna "ride my horse" when someone makes a statement with no fact base. Here's a list:
> 
> Capt. Uriel Ventris (Ultramarine)- Dead Sky Black Sun
> Sgt. Pasanius Lysane (Ultramarine)-Dead Sky Black Sun
> ...


Once again you are not reading what either myself or _randian_ said. Neither of us said that individuals cannot endure a warp rift without becoming corrupting or submitting to Chaos. You cited enough examples above to prove otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that the odds would be drastically stacked against an Imperial assassin going after a prominent Chaos warlord within a rift. We are *not* dealing in absolutes here, that seems to be why you are misinterpreting what we are saying

This started because you reprimanded _randian_ for saying that in _"all likelihood"_ Imperial assassins would end up dead, corrupted, or mutated. That is the case, and would be the most likely result. He did not say that individuals or assassins could not endure within a warp rift, but operating within a warp rift whilst attempting to take out a prominent Chaos warlord would most likely result in the assassin's death, betrayal, corruption or mutation - that's all that was said.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776,

Fact of the matter, though, is that Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane were under heavy suspicion when they did make it back. True, both (rightfully) regained their rank and respect, but the fact that they were _never expected to return from their quest_ speaks volumes.

The two Guardsmen, incidentally, were alive purely at the sufferance of Honsou's Iron Warriors. They were slave labor operating in a controlled environment, wherein people lived or died depending on the whims of their captors - they were not exposed to the full spectrum of dangers inherent to the Eye of Terror.

And what about the other renegade Astartes? The siege that they faced alongside Honsou and his Grand Company in that novel is a perfect illustration of what one can expect. Had they not thrown in their lot with the young Warsmith (or with some other faction), their lives would have been forfeit. How is their choice - and the advantages they derived from it - indicative of the chance of a solo Imperial operative (or a small team)?

As for Alaric, correct me if I'm wrong... but he was also in a controlled environment. He was brought there and kept as a gladiator, which - while extremely dangerous given where he was out - is hardly the equivalent of being alone and opposed to everything on a Khornate planet. Had Alaric been simply killed instead of being captured, this wouldn't have even been an issue. Had his lords not been vested in using him for their amusement, he would never have had a chance to use a slave revolt to escape.

My point - and I think randian and CotE's as well - is that while there are exceptions to the rule where survival is concerned, infiltrating the Eye of Terror is one of the most dangerous propositions in 40k. Resisting its various temptations, evading its traps, etc., is probably beyond the purview of most beings in the long run. Trying to kill someone very powerful (especially someone with their own army/fleet/etc.) with the resources of an individual (even an exceptional one) or just a small cadre... and minimal operating knowledge of what to expect in the Eye (do the Imperial authorities really know what's up with Medrengard, for instance?) is probably almost impossible. Subsequently escaping itself would be a topic all unto itself! 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

The more they advance the story, the more it seems that the Emperor knew exactly what would happen between him and Horus.

More than that, it seems it's what it _wants_ to happen.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

So he wanted to sit on a chair for ten thousand years, suffer constant mental and physical agony and poop anti-psyker dust? lol


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> So he wanted to sit on a chair for ten thousand years, suffer constant mental and physical agony and poop anti-psyker dust? lol/QUOTE]
> Maybe not that, but he had to have known that he was too much of a sentimental to kill his son without taking a mortal wound.
> 
> On the other hand, maybe he saw that the Golden Throne project would eventually fail (for whatever reason) and that the only way for humanity to truly conquer the galaxy was to have a god on their side (the Star Child/Father/Thing) and thats why he must die, except maybe he didn't want his death to be prolonged by the Throne and thats why he made such a big deal about Magnus.
> ...


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Is there any canon chaos assassins. Assassination seems like it would be right up tzeentch's alley.


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So he wanted to sit on a chair for ten thousand years, suffer constant mental and physical agony and poop anti-psyker dust? lol


Well, The Outcast Dead makes it pretty clear that the Emperor knows what is going to happen to him.

But he doesn't try to change that, at least that we're aware of.


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

AgentOrange24 said:


> Well, The Outcast Dead makes it pretty clear that the Emperor knows what is going to happen to him.
> 
> But he doesn't try to change that, at least that we're aware of.


Well at the end of Outcast dead he knows. The whole point of that novel was the Big E trying to see past that shadow point.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Deadeye776,
> 
> Fact of the matter, though, is that Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane were under heavy suspicion when they did make it back. True, both (rightfully) regained their rank and respect, but the fact that they were _never expected to return from their quest_ speaks volumes.
> 
> ...


 




So what, if i'm reading this right, is your saying that infiltrating the Eye of Terror is a particularly dangerous proposition. As opposed to what the Imperial forces normally face in the materium as being safer. Warp portals that can be opened on planets letting in god knows what. I think your point is moot my friends.Here's why. The whole point of an assassination is to hit them when they are relaxed and comfortable. If you look at guys like Honsou or Huron when they come out of the eye the are on the warpath. One of the reasons that Ventris and Pasanius were so successful is that besides handling internal strife none of the forces on Perturabo's planet were looking at Ventris and his boys as a real threat. I'm sure everyone here remembers the book 15 hours about the life expectancy of the Guard. The nature of what the assassins attempt in itself is highly dangerous in or out of the EOT so to say that "Well this one situation" would be dangerous is a bit redundant. Ovcourse the eye presents a unique challenge but I was saying its not unprecedented for someone to operate successfully inside the Eye of Terror.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

So we're going to try and assassinate the chosen of the gods on their home territory where their patron't influence is far stronger than it is anywhere else? 

Brilliant! 

I will, at this point, bring up the excerpt in the 3.5 Chaos Space Marines Codex (Pg10). There was a page of fluff there in the form of a mission briefing. A team of assassins was dispatched to eliminate Abaddon's lieutenants. 

They were well aware that they probably wouldn't survive. And they subsequently failed to my knowledge as one of the primary targets (Ygethmor, one of Abaddon's pet sorcerers) is still alive and kicking. 

Point being, these attempts *do* take place, predominantly to coincide with the Black Crusades themselves, and for the most part they meet with utter failure.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> They were well aware that they probably wouldn't survive. And they subsequently failed to my knowledge as one of the primary targets (Ygethmor, one of Abaddon's pet sorcerers) is still alive and kicking.


Ygethmar was, if I remember right, simply a target of opportunity at best for that execution force. They knew how powerful he was, and no one doubted that he knew they were coming. Devram Korda was the only 'official' primary target; but chances were minimal (at best) that they would succeed.

In regards to Ygethmar, officially he was killed on Medusa V after the autarch of Alaitoc took his head in battle (before herself being killed.) So not alive and kicking, and if he was then he would be cast aside by the Despoiler for failing.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> So we're going to try and assassinate the chosen of the gods on their home territory where their patron't influence is far stronger than it is anywhere else?
> 
> Brilliant!
> 
> ...


 



I'm not getting what hard for you to grasp here. What do you believe the life expectancy of an assassin is? It's almost sounding like you don't think assassins have a high chance of dying period.Let's look at this. Inside a codex that is made for CSM's the assassins met with failure.Okay, so what.Nemesis was a badass book IMO and obviously you knew beofore you read it that it wasn't going to end well for the asassins. Your first statement if you look up the definition of what assassins try and accomplish whether in combat or privately is exactly what an assassin would try. You think ninja wait for their targets to come into their "territory" before they strike? No, they hit them when they are sleeping or resting in their homes in the middle of the night. The nature of these assassins is to hit you (maybe not so much the Eversor) when your not expecting it covertly. If there' s one place the CSM would let their guard down well I'll let you figure that one out. 


Also let's remember Luc Sedirae is no longer with us in the heresy series because he got his head blown off. How'd that happen? He was slipping. If Horus had come out first it would have been him. You can kill anyone, almost anywhere given the right circumstances and in this case writer. I'm not saying it would be easy,but then again the nature of what we are talking abou is extremely difficult outside the EOT.Any good defensive football coach will tell you that for a successful defense you need to play on their side of the ball.It may not be a win,but the quarterback and other back will never feel safe if your always penetrating the line.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye,

No one is disputing that Assassins will eventually die. Nor are we asserting that they aren't incredibly capable individuals.

The issue I have with your argument is that the examples you provide regarding an Assassin's chances of survival in the Eye of Terror don't have much to do with an Assassin actually going there to kill someone.

So far, you've provided the following:
1. Uriel Ventris and his best friend, who only get to Medrengard because a greater daemon foresaw that they could serve his designs.

So how exactly would they even have gotten there had it not been for the Omphalos Daemonium? What exactly is the game plan for getting to a major bad guy in the Eye of Terror using your own resources? Those are the things I'm pointing out. Is it that feasible to assume that you can get your ship through the Eye of Terror, past any number of enemy vessels, infiltrate a Chaos-held planet, sneak through said bad guy's minions, and then pull off a master-stroke assassination?

Most of Uriel's success in that novel comes thanks to happenstance. A daemon helps him along, third party individuals help him sneak in Honsou's castle, the Iron Warriors subsequently decide NOT to kill him (rather, they imprison/feed them to the daemonculaba), and, finally, he is able to take advantage of an already-ongoing siege to accomplish his objective and make his escape.

So what does that prove? That if an Assassin enjoys the favor of the powers of the Warp AND is extremely lucky, that he might achieve his goal? Right on, I guess.

2. The renegades Uriel teams up with.

Valid insofar as they WERE able to survive in the Eye of Terror, but kind of irrelevant in the sense that, prior to Uriel's arrival (who, again, was assisted by a powerful daemon and could take advantage of a siege to do his deed) they never tried to infiltrate Honsou's castle. And for good reason - even with Uriel and Pasanius' help, the infiltration was unsuccessful.

3. Alaric.

Thanks for the recap of the story, but I stand by my words: Alaric was able to achieve what he did precisely because the people who captured him chose to capture him rather than kill him outright. Comparing his ability to survive as a captive gladiator to an Assassin's ability to sneak in and murder someone is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, his exploits were impressive as hell - no denying that! But the fact of the matter remains that (best as I recall), Alaric was under controlled danger until he tried to escape. That is, he was in danger while in the arena. You can't compare that to the risks you take trying to infiltrate a place.

Bottom line, you can't assume that your Psykers will have random visions that correspond with a strategic target you'd like to take out. You can't assume that daemonic powers will aid you in your efforts (for their own twisted ends), or that there are going to be convenient distractions to help your cause.

Anyways... I'm not trying to tell you that someone couldn't get to the Eye of Terror. Clearly they can... even by conventional means. And I don't doubt they could do a great deal of damage, assuming they're the right person for the right job. Where I lose faith in the proposal, though, is the assumption that "Deus ex Machina" types of plot twists (Tigurius sensing the very target that the Omphalos Daemonium wanted as well) will be there to help our hero along. And then there's the encounter, as well. The bigger the force, the more attention it will grab before it can get to the target. The smaller the force, the less hope it has of terminating a worthwhile enough target to try to assassinate in the Eye of Terror to begin with.

Just my thoughts...

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm not getting what hard for you to grasp here. What do you believe the life expectancy of an assassin is? It's almost sounding like you don't think assassins have a high chance of dying period.


That just the thing, Officio Assasinorium operatives have a very high success and mission survival rate (outside of desperate suicidal missions or one's where an Everesor is just unleashed to kill until he expires). 

Each is a precious resource, needing the highest authority to deploy. Their too precious to waste sending on a certain death into the Eye, the most dangerous place in the galaxy where the laws of physics are nothing.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

okay what i'm hearing are two things. From Phoebus that the Eye of Terror is impossible to operate inside. From Rems the Assassins are too precious to waste inside the EOT. You think Tom Cruise would get paid to be in a movie called Mission Medium Difficulty? Certain death describes almost every GK mission, why? When an entire planet falls to chaos,tru or false, anything that manifests in the EOT can now manifest there as well? Once a warp gate has been opened that planet can now manifest any chaos creature given enough power and resources. 

While the EOT is an extremely dangerous place it's not the warp. The "they're a precious asset" can be used by any (except for the guardsmen) of the examples I've used. Oh Armageddon is falling to the Red Angel and his legions? Yeah just do an exterminatus because we can't lose any GK's, really hard to replace.It's dangerous is usually the norm for the Imperium where let's be honest everything they take on is a nightmare except for the Tau and Eldar. I know it's dangerous but, the only reason your saying its suicide is because no ones ever done it.....yet.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

> okay what i'm hearing are two things. From Phoebus that the Eye of Terror is impossible to operate inside. From Rems the Assassins are too precious to waste inside the EOT.


Mine and Phoebus's arguments are tied together. The Assasins are too precious to waste because the Eye is an impossibly difficult area which makes any attempt a waste. 




> You think Tom Cruise would get paid to be in a movie called Mission Medium Difficulty? Certain death describes almost every GK mission, why? When an entire planet falls to chaos,tru or false, anything that manifests in the EOT can now manifest there as well? Once a warp gate has been opened that planet can now manifest any chaos creature given enough power and resources.


That's only the case if a warp rift is opened or the occupants actively summon daemons. daemonic entities can't just materialize because everyone on a planet is aligned with chaos rather than the Imperium.



> While the EOT is an extremely dangerous place it's not the warp.


Well that's the thing, it sort of is. The Eye is where warp space bleeds over into the materium. That's why it's a physics defying, mind bending, daemon inhabited place. It's both a permanent warp storm, warp rift, area of warp space and a area of space in the materium with planets. It's a maddening, impossible place where no sane man goes. 



> The "they're a precious asset" can be used by any (except for the guardsmen) of the examples I've used. Oh Armageddon is falling to the Red Angel and his legions? Yeah just do an exterminatus because we can't lose any GK's, really hard to replace.It's dangerous is usually the norm for the Imperium where let's be honest everything they take on is a nightmare except for the Tau and Eldar. I know it's dangerous but, the only reason your saying its suicide is because no ones ever done it.....yet.


It's suicide because no attempt has ever succeeded. The Eye of Terror sends men insane just by venturing into it. Argen Tal and the rest nearly went insane (and some did) during their exploration of it. The Inquisition has to send special psychically warded observation ships with no crew in for intelligence. It is not the kind of place you try to attempt offensive operations. The Traitor Astartes can only inhabit because they stay in the least mind bending areas, have the protection of the God's and are quite insane already.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> okay what i'm hearing are two things. From Phoebus that the Eye of Terror is impossible to operate inside.


With respect, I wish you'd read my posts for what they say:

_"Anyways... I'm *not* trying to tell you that someone couldn't get to the Eye of Terror. Clearly they can... even by conventional means. And I *don't doubt* they could do a great deal of damage, ... Where I lose faith in the proposal, though, is the assumption that "Deus ex Machina" types of plot twists ... will be there to help our hero along. And then there's the encounter, as well. The bigger the force, the more attention it will grab before it can get to the target. The smaller the force, the less hope it has of terminating a worthwhile enough target ..."_

Can someone operate in the Eye? Sure. It's going to be a stretch just to know where Bad Guy X is in the Eye of Terror, though, and it's going to be even more of a stretch to presume that the required visions will happen when you need them... or that the powers of the Warp can be counted on to play along.

That is all. 

*Rems,*

Good words.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd like to add that theoretically sure it's possible an assassin (or more likely a team of assassins) might succeed in taking out a high profile target in the Eye but the chance is realistically so remote, needing so many factors to align (as Phoebus pointed out) that's it's all but impossible for all the reasons listed so far.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

In the real world highly elite teams are trained and deployed in hell holes all around the world. The Americans,British,French,and Germans to name a few all have highly elite units that are precious few and very hard to replace if casualties occur. However these patriots volunteered and were trained to go places that normal military forces would never be able to operate. That's the real world. On to sci-fi horror. The astartes,primarchs,assassins,inquisitors, have all operated inside the EOT. The Gods themselves are insane. Your saying the gods chosen right? So Khorne would oppose killing a minion you defeated? I thought it didn't matter where the blood flowed from.

I looked at your post Phoebus and maybe you should read mine. Just because no one (as far as we know) has ever successfully carried out an assassination inside the eye doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried. The assassins are a viable asset. When you think about how highly trained they are to get in undetected and terminate a target without being noticed it's what they were made for. Remember it was tried with Konrad Curze. Ovcourse they trying to kill a primarch with clairvoyance is like trying to dry hump a blue whale in the ocean but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. They can be shot,decapitated,and what ever the Emperor did to Horus when he detroyed his soul. If that's available then everyone should be fair game.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Ygethmar was, if I remember right, simply a target of opportunity at best for that execution force. They knew how powerful he was, and no one doubted that he knew they were coming. Devram Korda was the only 'official' primary target; but chances were minimal (at best) that they would succeed.
> 
> In regards to Ygethmar, officially he was killed on Medusa V after the autarch of Alaitoc took his head in battle (before herself being killed.) So not alive and kicking, and if he was then he would be cast aside by the Despoiler for failing.


Thank you for that correction.  



Deadeye776 said:


> In the real world highly elite teams are trained and deployed in hell holes all around the world. The Americans,British,French,and Germans to name a few all have highly elite units that are precious few and very hard to replace if casualties occur. However these patriots volunteered and were trained to go places that normal military forces would never be able to operate. That's the real world. On to sci-fi horror. The astartes,primarchs,assassins,inquisitors, have all operated inside the EOT. The Gods themselves are insane. Your saying the gods chosen right? So Khorne would oppose killing a minion you defeated? I thought it didn't matter where the blood flowed from.


You cannot compare the real world to a sci fi setting and expect the parallels to be valid. Real assassins never had to contend with daemonic attacks, mind warping terrain and the constant whispers of Chaos in their very souls. And your Khorne anology is crude, the reality is that even Khorne has more artifice than the constant desire for simple bloodshed. 



> I looked at your post Phoebus and maybe you should read mine. Just because no one (as far as we know) has ever successfully carried out an assassination inside the eye doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried. The assassins are a viable asset. When you think about how highly trained they are to get in undetected and terminate a target without being noticed it's what they were made for. Remember it was tried with Konrad Curze. Ovcourse they trying to kill a primarch with clairvoyance is like trying to dry hump a blue whale in the ocean but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. They can be shot,decapitated,and what ever the Emperor did to Horus when he detroyed his soul. If that's available then everyone should be fair game.


Did you even read my earlier post? It has been tried. It has failed. If you were in charge of a galaxy spanning empire, received constant requests for assassination attempts from all over the place, which ones would you give priority to? 

Assassins are a valuable commodity, this much we have established. The enemies of man are attacking on all fronts led by alien warlords of varying races. On top of this lesser officials all over the Imperium are proving themselves unfit leaders and require subtle removal to avoid a long and costly dismissal process. 

So, an assassin can conceivably provide aid to the Imperium on a more frequent base. Singling out an ork warlord, a corrupt governor or a tau ethereal is just as useful to the Imperium and far less risky, allowing the assassin greater odds of survival and therefore continued use to the Imperium. 

Given that, why would the High Lords squander them on some fool's errand? 

When they leave the Eye, odds are different and assassins are often utilized, but to try while they are within their strongest holds is simply foolish.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Anyways... I'm not trying to tell you that someone couldn't get to the Eye of Terror. Clearly they can... even by conventional means. And I don't doubt they could do a great deal of damage, assuming they're the right person for the right job. Where I lose faith in the proposal, though, is the assumption that "Deus ex Machina" types of plot twists (Tigurius sensing the very target that the Omphalos Daemonium wanted as well) will be there to help our hero along. And then there's the encounter, as well. The bigger the force, the more attention it will grab before it can get to the target. The smaller the force, the less hope it has of terminating a worthwhile enough target to try to assassinate in the Eye of Terror to begin with.





Deadeye776 said:


> okay what i'm hearing are two things. From Phoebus that the Eye of Terror is impossible to operate inside...


The above sums up this debate. Over the last few weeks (and several threads) i've come to the reasoned conclusion that _Deadeye_ either cannot read or chooses not to. Perhaps his username is intentionally ironic. 

Seriously though, no offence _Deadeye_ but you are not reading what everyone is actually saying. If you did, you'll probably find that your thinking actually aligns with most of ours on this issue.

No one is saying that _Officio_ operatives could not operate within the Eye (or another warp rift). In fact no one is even saying that it's unprecedented for someone to operate successfully within the Eye (or any other warp rift). Please pay attention: An assassination attempt within a warp rift would most likely end in failure, especially when compared to more conventional assassinations. That is literally all we are saying. We are not questioning individual's abilities to endure or remain loyal/sane within a warp rift, we are simply suggesting that assassination attempts on prominent Chaos warlords within a warp rift would be much more likely to fail than more conventional assassinations in the material realm.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well see if you can read this Cote. Your opinion that you don't think it's plausible to deploy assassins deep into the EOT due to the extreme environment is to me bordering on mentally deficient. This is a sci fi setting, to comprehend this entire universe (materium and immaterium) is to suspend your disbelief in what's possiblity. See how your logic handles this. 7 years ago if I had started a thread saying that no only do I think a GK grand master can take a primarch,but could survive and inside the warp itself while kicking ass, what would you have said? The same ridiculous answer your giving me right now,it's not possible. Maybe you should check what the hell we are discussing and really read what I'm saying. It would be entertaining to see the Assassins used more. That was one point. I used the EOT as a possible extreme. Not every assassination mission had to be successful but I was saying that it would be suspensful and exciting to see them taken to an extreme.

Somewhere in my proposal you saw "Assassins would be able to take out anyone in the Eye of Terror" or something close to it. I said they are capable of anything. I don't like the point of anyone being untouchable. Obviously neither does BL since they've created more and more beings of power like the Sanguinor,Draigo, and Rex. I know the Eye a hellish place and success there is highly unlikely. The only reason I really read Dead Sky Black Sun is because I thought it was badass being sent on a death oath mission into the Eye. How is he going to make it back? 


This thread was basically me coming up with ideas of how it would be interesting and exciting to deploy asassins in different areas. There's no such thing as a "conventional" assassination,the term is an oxymoron in itself. Once again people using terms they don't understand. An assassination in itself is unconventional warfare along with espionage and sabotage. Also things an assassin would be adept at. A sniper,besides doing sniping, also does recon and survelliance. Maybe going into the EOT can be that,giving the Imperium a heads up about a black crusade or pirate raid. What you think is possible or highly dangerous is irrelevant. The story of Kaldor Draigo. The Necrons defeating and imprisoning the C'tan. Should I go on with example's of how if a writer wants to make something happen in 40k they can or are you gonna keep telling me what's highly unlikely? If a writer or codex author wants an assassin to put a round through Huron Blackheart's head, that's what will happen.


p.s. 
Bloodquest : Prisoners of the Eye of Terror






Travelling the Eye of Terror in search of a stolen artefact, a band of Blood Angels exiles encounter another group of Space Marines on a similar quest – but is all as it seems? 



Another book about Imperial forces operating in the EOT


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> Another book about Imperial forces operating in the EOT


Just felt the need to point this out, but of the few books dealing with any pro Imperium elements operating in the eye there is a concern of corruption and taint.

This is ever present in Dead Sky, Black Sun; you could probably go so far as to say the pollutants in the air might contain elements that would lead to corruption of one kind or another.

Atlas Infernal deals with pro-Imperial forces in the eye, or at least along its very edges, and there is the notion of a constant need of characters to purify themselves of any and all possible taint they might be exposed to.

Blood Quest, depending upon if that books is simply going to be a reprint of the original series or a long awaited next installment can lead to a pair of outcomes. If its the reprint, then remember that those stories were written at a less grim dark point in 40k history, where the likes of corruption/taint for simply being in the eye wasn't even a thought. However if its the second, then those characters are going to become suspect upon their return to from the eye.


As Child of the Emperor mentioned, assassinations within the eye are possible but less likely due to the miniscule success rate. They are an extremely valuable resource that can, more often than not, be better spent on other targets where success may be better.


By the way Deadeye, it is possible to remain civil while disagreeing; so by all means lose a bit of the attitude when dealing with others.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The above sums up this debate. Over the last few weeks (and several threads) i've come to the reasoned conclusion that _Deadeye_ either cannot read or chooses not to. Perhaps his username is intentionally ironic.
> 
> Seriously though, no offence _Deadeye_ but you are not reading what everyone is actually saying. If you did, you'll probably find that your thinking actually aligns with most of ours on this issue.
> 
> ...


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

At the end of the day Deadeye, the Officio's risk assessment places the EoT as too risky to send assassins on missions with that probability of failure. 

This is established by existing lore and your refusal to see that fact doesn't change anything. Six assassins couldn't kill Horus the warmaster ten millennia ago, an assassin only succeeded in killing Kurze because he himself allowed it. 

In more current times assassins have been repeatedly used to attempt to slay Abaddon during his crusades and have failed. Even lesser known targets survive their efforts as seen in The Siege of Vraks. 

Even given their extensive wargear and training, assassins are not infallible and are far better spent where their success is better rated.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

One more try:



Deadeye776 said:


> Well see if you can read this Cote. Your opinion that you don't think it's plausible to deploy assassins deep into the EOT due to the extreme environment is to me bordering on mentally deficient.


Seriously now, when have I ever said that? 

Assassins _could_ be (and probably are on occassion) deployed into warp rifts, our point is that their success rate would be drastically slashed in comparison to more conventional assassinations - (yes _'conventional assassinations'_, were talking specifically about assassinations, not about warfare in general - therefore it is perfectly logical to use the term _conventional_ in regards to assassinations).



Deadeye776 said:


> See how your logic handles this. 7 years ago if I had started a thread saying that no only do I think a GK grand master can take a primarch,but could survive and inside the warp itself while kicking ass, what would you have said? The same ridiculous answer your giving me right now,it's not possible.


Firstly, it is perfectly logical for a Grey Knight Grand Master (let alone the _Supreme Grand Master_) to stand toe-to-toe with a Daemon Primarch and humiliate it. Surviving in the warp as a result of a curse? Nothing wrong with that. I can't see that I would have had any major issues with the Draigo lore back then (as I don't now).

_"The same ridiculous answer"_ I am giving you now? I havn't said it's not possible (in regards to the assasssins). This is why I am challenging your reading skills, because you're plucking things out of thin air and claiming that myself, _Serpion_ and _Phoebus_ (amongst others) have said them (when we havn't).



Deadeye776 said:


> Maybe you should check what the hell we are discussing and really read what I'm saying.


You're essentially arguing with yourself, because you're not reading what all of us are saying properly. Although I can see this going round in circles until you read through the thread again (i've already done so to double-check).



Deadeye776 said:


> Somewhere in my proposal you saw "Assassins would be able to take out anyone in the Eye of Terror" or something close to it.


Nope, not at all.



Deadeye776 said:


> What you think is possible or highly dangerous is irrelevant. The story of Kaldor Draigo. The Necrons defeating and imprisoning the C'tan. Should I go on with example's of how if a writer wants to make something happen in 40k they can or are you gonna keep telling me what's highly unlikely?


Draigo and the Shard lore both fit in perfectly with 40k lore - although I think both have been discussed to death.



Deadeye776 said:


> If a writer or codex author wants an assassin to put a round through Huron Blackheart's head, that's what will happen.


And that would be perfectly possible (albeit highly unlikely), whats your point?



Deadeye776 said:


> Travelling the Eye of Terror in search of a stolen artefact, a band of Blood Angels exiles encounter another group of Space Marines on a similar quest – but is all as it seems?
> Another book about Imperial forces operating in the EOT


Once again: Who said it wasn't possible for Imperials to operate inside the Eye?


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well this has been an...amusing thread to read- Deadeye don't change, your posts are endlessly amusing.

I would like to add that expecting the Chaos forces to somehow be more relaxed whilst in the Eye of Terror, as if they'd gotten home and just put their feet up, is demonstrating a remarkable ignorance of 40K background.
Any Chaos Warband would be suicidal to drop their guard just because they've crossed from the materium into the border-land of the EoT. The inter-legionary wars are nigh on constant so even if an Assassin was to somehow infiltrate the EoT he/she would find forces in there that were on high alert, not sat in the daemon-jacuzzi knocking back a few whiskies.

I do enjoy how all the examples you gave though are of individuals or small groups who are trying to survive, not prosecute a kill against a powerful target. Survival is much simpler than Assassination.

p.s M'Shen killed Curze in real space, on the Eastern Fringe- so unless your point was that Chaos Leaders *can* be killed you've fucked up a bit there.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First I'll say the Night Haunter mission I brought up for example. Going into the EOT is what we are debating whether it's a waste of a precious asset. I'm saying going after Conrad Kurze who is a clairvoyant,ruthless,cunning,sadistic,and psy ops genius is pretty much the same. What did he say to M'shen? "I was aware of your presence since you entered the Eastern fringes." I'm saying though I'm not saying the High lords knew of Cuze's abilites the launched assassins at him because the the threat he posed. In truth I think the Haunter was even more dangerous than Horus. The Haunter saw the cracks in the Imperial Truth and would have rebelled with no Chaos influence. I'm saying when you are a tier 1 asset, they launch you into hell to accomplish objectives.

Okay next. The examples I gave aren't all survivors. Why were the Ultrasmurfs there? To execute a mission. A suicide mission at that. Surviving is what all warriors do to some degree in enemy territory. Alaric I'll say was survival untill he pulled a gladiator and made himself a next level badass. Best line in the book "I'm a Grey Knight, there's no way I could be aware of a place like this and leave it intact." Showed that while surviving he was also still on mission to accomplish his original objectives just like the tier 1 asset he is. My thing is is that I think you can do a Mission Impossible type series with the Assassins. I used the EOT as a possible location. I said the Assassination option hasn't been used almost at all in novels. I think the assassins are good for a lot of high risk targets as shown in Nemesis. Luc Sedirae got taken down and they were able to kill a creature that if not discovered would have seriously threatened the Emperor.I don't know why the EOT seems like a waste of a good assassin. If the target is important enought they will do it if they have the intelligence. 


As for Chaos being laxed in the EOT ovcourse they would still be on a war footing. My point is is that it would be a great place to establish surprise. For operatives trained in stealth it would be a challenge and entertaining watching them evade CSM forces to get into position.That's all I've been saying. The authors can make it possible if they want.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One more try:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Cote it seems we're beginning the same waltz we executed about the new Necron fluff. I'm going to make two points quickly. Conventional warfare is fighting with artilery,infantry,air force, and navy. Sending a small unit behind enemy lines devoid of those things falls into the realm of special operations which is by definition unconventional warfare. Two, if a series was proposed about a modern day execution force set to take down targets like dark eldar leaders,ork warbosses,tyranid hive tyrants, tau ethereals,Chaos cult leaders,and traitors you would totally want to read it.That's not a question it's a statement. Assassins kicking ass is cool. Them thrown into impossible situations and expected to make magic happen is cool. That's what I'm saying. Forget about the EOT. I think an assassin series would be cool. That's it.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

> The authors can make it possible if they want.


Actually, the authors could only make it possible if gw allowed it. They wouldn't allow anything that altered the major status quo of the setting. 

And yes, a series on assassins would be interesting or at least it sounds so at first. But think about it. Assassins operate alone. You cannot make good character development unless there is interaction with other characters, and aside from the moment of the kill, assassins simply don't do this. 

_Nemesis_ worked because there were multiple assassin characters. The circumstances forced on them were unique and made for an interesting story. However in the long run, most assassinations are nothing like this. The story would almost have to be predominantly from the target's point of view, or some bystander to the thing.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Actually, the authors could only make it possible if gw allowed it. They wouldn't allow anything that altered the major status quo of the setting.
> 
> Your right. Absolutely nothing has happened in the fluff to upset the status quo of the setting over the last couple years...........(sarcasm) Oh by the way. If you still believe this go ahead and read the Necron codex,story of Kaldor Draigo, and then read the latest HH novel Know No Fear.If you still believe the status quo hasn't changed then go ahead. They pretty much SHATTER status quo in that book. I hate the Ultramarines and the Gulliman,but that was one of the best HH books I've read.
> 
> ...


My friend you mean Nemesis worked for you. I liked it because of the portrayal of the ruthless Vindicare (my favorite assassin) who stayed true to his predatory nature even in the end. The last seen where he was ramming his ship into Horus's and he thinking that now more than ever he was a weapon sealed it for me. Yeah the other assassins were cool but it was the Vindicare who took the shot that killed Sedirae and if Horus hadn't used body doubles, it would have been Horus. I suggested an execution force because with some of my suggestions that one assassin would be inneffective against all targets. An eldar witch vs a eversor is not a good match up,so I would have a Culexus on hand. Maybe like an execution Task Force instead of a team, like a group of assassins working solo accomplishing different tasks orsometimes together.I think the current number and level of threats would warrant such a gathering. But I also think that you can make it work with solo assassins.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

> Your right. Absolutely nothing has happened in the fluff to upset the status quo of the setting over the last couple years...........(sarcasm) Oh by the way. If you still believe this go ahead and read the Necron codex,story of Kaldor Draigo, and then read the latest HH novel Know No Fear.If you still believe the status quo hasn't changed then go ahead. They pretty much SHATTER status quo in that book. I hate the Ultramarines and the Gulliman,but that was one of the best HH books I've read.


Dude, that story adds new information. Those codices add new information to the setting. In no way does any of it alter just how screwed the Imperium is. The stas quo has not changed, only the amount of information we have has. 



> My suggestion was for a series for an Execution Force Serpion. Obviously when the idea first came about there was only one galactic level threat in Horus. Now? You have multiple xenos,dark eldar,necron,CSM (not just Abbaddon but Huron Blackheart and other big shots and their Lt's).Also there are many books with assassins,bounty Hunters,and spies (Mitch Rapp,James Bond,Duke Togo,Bobba Fett) that have successful series or movies with little to no support cast.A sniper series (Duke Togo in Golgo 13) would be just as exciting as seen in his anime and manga if done properly. You an make anything work with the right writing.


I'll take your word for that since I've read none of those.  



> My friend you mean Nemesis worked for you. I liked it because of the portrayal of the ruthless Vindicare (my favorite assassin) who stayed true to his predatory nature even in the end. The last seen where he was ramming his ship into Horus's and he thinking that now more than ever he was a weapon sealed it for me. Yeah the other assassins were cool but it was the Vindicare who took the shot that killed Sedirae and if Horus hadn't used body doubles, it would have been Horus. I suggested an execution force because with some of my suggestions that one assassin would be inneffective against all targets. An eldar witch vs a eversor is not a good match up,so I would have a Culexus on hand. Maybe like an execution Task Force instead of a team, like a group of assassins working solo accomplishing different tasks orsometimes together.I think the current number and level of threats would warrant such a gathering. But I also think that you can make it work with solo assassins.


I have a proposition for you Deadeye. Prove to me that assassin stories can be done well. Heresy has an Original Works section dedicated to member fan stories. I run a section called Featured Fiction (courtesy of Commissar Ploss). Write an assassin story. If you do it well as you claim is possible, I will feature it. We have an editing service down there as well so you can quite easily ensure that it is up to standards. 

So go on. Prove it to me. There's a shiny writer award in it for you if you do. :biggrin: :king:


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

It'll take time.....but challenge accepted.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Excellent. I look forward to reading it.


----------

