# CSM versus SM



## Frogthor (Mar 13, 2010)

Two mortal enemies, one obviously better than the other...so how should I crush the weak SM? (No, really. How?)

Frogthor The Magnificent and Wonderful


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Bust open their Rhino's, then drop blast templates on them. Their troops die very easily to Obliterator plasma cannons and Vindicator demolisher cannons. Pick off any Land Speeders or other vehicles with Obliterators or Termicide units.

SM are fairly easy to beat, its just their TH/SS Terminators that are a pain in the arse. If they have them, then the best thing is to blow up the Land Raider before it gets too close, then keep lashing the terminators to the back of the board. Wait till the end of the game to deal with them with concentrated fire power.

I have only lost 1 game to them, and that was bad rolling for my psychic tests for Lash, meaning the TH/SS Termies got into combat. Not good.


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## Frogthor (Mar 13, 2010)

I was hoping on sticking to a Tzeentch army, but I guess I can make an exception if it means winning


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Frogthor said:


> I was hoping on sticking to a Tzeentch army, but I guess I can make an exception if it means winning


Stick with Tzeentch.

Run a Daemon Prince with Wings, MoT, and Warptime (Winds of Chaos is optional).

Thousand Sons are marine killers with their AP3 bolter fire, but just be careful with them as they are expensive and relatively fragile, although the invulnerable save is helpful.

Oblits will work nicely too.


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## Frogthor (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks for everything KoC, you've posted on like all my threads. +rep! Oh, and when I played a space marine player he lied to me and said my DP could only cast one psychic power so I E.P.ed on all my Wind of Chaos rolls, letting his Thunder hammer termis get into combat.

By the by, E.P. = Epic Phail


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

biggest problem i've always come across is same as KingOfCheese those damned TH/SS Termies. My friend usualy has a 5 man squad with kantor in a landraider so if they get thier charge it's 20 str8 attacks which generaly wipes a full squad in 1 turn, with a TS squad making a quick estimate i would assume you would get 0-1 kill and you would recieve aprox 4 in return, thier 4+ inv save making them into a abit of a tarpit. Something you could do is give the asp sorc gift of chaos and at the start of the turn use it twice giving you 50+% chance of killing one (with no chance for a save, ignores eternal warrior and always works on the roll of a 6 regardless of toughness ) and replacing it with a spawn (which is then in combat that assault phase) then still getting your attacks in during the assault phase. Oh and you pick the model! wewt.

Infact i saw a list posted on here awhile ago making maximum use of gift of chaos, looked interesting i must say.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I would recommend monopolizing on the sheer lack of truly devastating CC in their army (TH/SS being the exception). So the best way for CSM to beat SM is to not try and be SM's. I mean if you are spamming long range weapons against SM, even from obliterators your missing the point of playing CSM against loyalists. The main strengths we have against them is the sheer ass kicking potential of even our regular CSM's. The only other thing we really have over and above the Loyalists is the ability to be 6 times more killy at medium to short range with almost every unit being able to take 2 assault weapon.

Oh and when fighting loyalists I find the most hilarious thing to do against TH/SS is to constantly lash them so they are just in Plasma gun range (Its still a good Idea t kill them since unless you lash them into a corner they will still pose a generate a 24 inch assault buble (12ince from the center) that will stop your from safely claiming objectives.) while still being so far away that they can possibly get into CC after all against loyalists nothing else in their army really holds a candle to CSM CC with the exception of a chaplain in a assault squad and even then they will loss to a berserker squad or khorn CSM squad with PF. 

Its all nice and good to say I will lash them away from my force then ignore the, but if you don't intend on kill them that means your lash prince will have to baby sit that one unit the entire game more or less depriving you of your DP since if he stops lashing they will start moving 6in +d6 run towards you, the only way not to end up more or less exchanging your dp for locking his TH/SS would be to take a double lash list since with the two lashes you can control the movement of the TH/SS without loosing the use of your DP for almost the entire game. Also remember if your DP lashes a unit it can't assualt, and it requires clear line of sight to the enemy something that can be fatal if your DP is moving ahead of your force to manipulate the enemy temies.

On a matter that hasn't been brought up yet most TH/SS will be mounted in a landraider meaning the idea of lashing them to the edge of the board is not possible most of the time, since the opportunity to do so won't arise till they have killed one of your units or a lucky laz cannon has busted their transport. And if your opponent is smart your DP should be long dead before that happened especially with the current rules for line of sight it is fairly hard to completely hide a DP from elevated shooting.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Oh and when fighting loyalists I find the most hilarious thing to do against TH/SS is to constantly lash them so they are just in Plasma gun range while still being so far away that they can possibly get into CC after all against loyalists nothing else in their army really holds a candle to CSM CC with the exception of a chaplain in a assault squad and even then they will loss to a berserker squad or khorn CSM squad with PF.


I stated that before. And you are better off not shooting them at all, just lash them. You are better off using the Plasma Cannons to focus fire on things that are a threat, rather than shooting at TH/SS Termies that pose no threat at all. They cant capture objectives, and they cant shoot. They are completely useless as long as you keep lashing them. If it pins them, then you get an extra turn up your sleeve to lash something else too. If you get to the end of the game and there is nothing left besides the TH/SS Termies, THEN you can have a go at shooting them.
Oh, and this is assuming that you are protecting your lash prince properly.


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## Frogthor (Mar 13, 2010)

Just played a game where I lost, but it was a close game. There was some unclear rules and I screwed up unit placement, so my guys had to scramble to the objective on turn five. It was fun though because I kept lashing his TH/SS Termis away from my troops. SO FUN:grin:


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

I read this and shake my head. Vs chaos lists a psychic hood is a must these days. When will these young players learn.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Agreed Arbite it is kinda like asking to lose not taking hood, since it can really shut down a lash dependent chaos list. Runes of warding is also a most vs. chaos, and leads to some hilarious instances where new players dependent on lash loss their DP's to perils after trying to cast lash 4-5 times.


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

You could consider giving Bolt of Change to you Aspiring Sorcerer or another Chaos Sorcerer. 
This'll work on his LR or individual Termies, I believe.


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