# So Russ is really the crowned "King" of close combat/H2H out of the primarchs



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

*So Russ is really the crowned "King" of close combat/H2H out of the primarchs*

is there really any primarch that can go toe to toe against Russ in close combat/H2H.. is he really the best "physical fighter" of the primarchs


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Several. According to various sources, most Primarchs where masters of close quarter combat.

Curze is a viscous physical fighter.

Angron is the epitome of devastation and I think every Primarch would have a massive problem on their hands.

Both the Khan and Fulgrim are thought to be the best Swordsmen out of the Primarchs.

The Lion was pretty equal to the Wolf but I don't think they ever had a fair fight.

Corax thought he could best most Primarchs and I think it's stated he even beat Horus during a friendly bout.

Vulkan is thought to be strong but slow and well Russ can take Power fist punches so I don't think he'd be that good.

Alpharius and Omegon could try double team him but I get the distinct impression close combat is at the level of other Primarchs.

Dorn was only scared of one person and that was Curze, that I believe was more psychological though since Dorn thought he could beat Fulgrim and Horus. That's personal opinion though so I'm unsure as to whether his combat prowess is at the level be believes.

Horus is pretty dominant, almost master of everything but still other Primarchs where thought to be better in different aspects of martial combat than him.

Ferrus got his head lopped off so I guess that puts him out of the running.

Roboute was more of a tactician, he could handle himself well but I doubt he'd out perform Russ.

Lorgar would be more dangerous if he just spat at Russ....

Pertruabo was pretty sturdy but I don't think he was near the top of the class.

Magus of course had his back broken by Russ so that definately rules him out.

Mortarion could probably take the punches but I doubt he'd take him down.

Sanguinius probably could as well.

In conclusion I think the following Primarchs have a chance of defeating him solo without chaos induced powers - Curze, Fulgrim, Khan, Angron, Horus, Corax, Sanguinius and maybe the Lion.

Dorn is on the verge of maybe but I don't know his actual ability as yet so I'll leave him out.

The others specialise in other areas and while their ability could still help their legions, they ain't at the level of the ones above. Especially Lorgar who unfortunately sucked at it and had Corax taunting him and whipping him...still makes me smile.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hell no! Angron is by far his equall if not better. Horus is labeld the best fighter. Cruze is hinted and treated as a total badass, beaten Dorn. The Lion had a standoff with Russ and held his own, till Russ started laughing, then he was Knock the Fuck Out. Magnus is no Fighter at allbut held his own in CC with his Psy Power (you cant argue this Russ was in his face the whole fight) till he got his back broken. Hell Fulgrim beaten Manus TWICE in their encounters. Manus is a hard bitten boy from what I read, so Fulgrim with his Daemon Sword could possibly beaten Russ.


Bottom Line is Russ is a Badass fighter but the best fighter title is split between Russ, Angron, Horus, and Night Haunter.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Hell no! Angron is by far his equall if not better. Horus is labeld the best fighter. Cruze is hinted and treated as a total badass, beaten Dorn. The Lion had a standoff with Russ and held his own, till Russ started laughing, then he was Knock the Fuck Out. Magnus is no Fighter at allbut held his own in CC with his Psy Power (you cant argue this Russ was in his face the whole fight) till he got his back broken. Hell Fulgrim beaten Manus TWICE in their encounters. Manus is a hard bitten boy from what I read, so Fulgrim with his Daemon Sword could possibly beaten Russ.
> 
> 
> Bottom Line is Russ is a Badass fighter but the best fighter title is split between Russ, Angron, Horus, and Night Haunter.


To be fair, Dorn was surprised and shocked by Curze who was going through a psycho vision when Dorn was telling him off, I doubt it was a fair fight. The problem with Angron is he is all fury and while fury could easily batter people aside, a more "sensible" berserker like Russ could easily equal him in prowess so it's not that far beyond.

I take it you're not including the other Primarchs since you've not read about them or don't know their abilities?

Btw In my post I listed the Primarchs as they are naturally, so no chaos weapons or possessions etc.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Im not a great fan of these Primarch dick-measuring contests. I think almost every Primarch could stand toe-to-toe with any other Primarch, it all boils down to circumstance like almost every other hypothetical encounter.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I take it you're not including the other Primarchs since you've not read about them or don't know their abilities?


I included alot of Primarchs, its just That the ones I listed have showings against other Primarchs. Corax beat the shit out of Logar, or Logar soaked up alot of punishment, however you look at it, that fact is the other Primarchs in the HH series have little to no showings of awsomness in CC as the ones I mention.

Also the 4 I listed is the general thought pattern I get whenever these Primarch vs come up on the Fluff boards. Its usally Horus, Curze, Angron, and Russ as CC monsters. Horus cause hes the Fucking Warmaster. Curze cause hes fukin Batman, grown up as CC fighter... on acid... plus he mind fucks ya totally. Angron cause hes the CC monster who grew up and lived as a gladiator, I gaurentee he fought more battles in the Arena during his life than Russ did on the Taundra. Then Russ, who proven his worth against Magnus and written as a badass, except when he gets KO by the Emperor..or the Lion...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think Angron and Sanguinius would have the easiest time beating him in close combat

Lorgar sucked, everyone agrees on that

I think Night Haunter was good too, but not in the top league...he beat Dorn but it was implied to be a sucker-punch similar to how the Lion decked Russ, except Curze went on to mutilate Dorn

Night Haunter also had a very close fight with the Lion, having a clear advantage at one point, but by that time he was firmly in the grip of Chaos, whether it augmented his power is questionable


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I think Russ was the greatest at what he did, straight down right brawling, but I wouldn't say that he was "king".


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

IIRC Ferrus Manus was killed because Fulgrim had daemon support.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Ferrus got his head lopped off so I guess that puts him out of the running.


But if he didn't then he would definetly bitchslap the f*** out of him!

(Ferrus) HAHAHA! A SINGLE FLICK OF MY FINGER IS THE EQUIVALENT TO A POWERFIST BLOW!!


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Angron, you know: big guy, large axes, has a legion of bloodthirsty phycos?
I reckon he could have beaten russ


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not a great fan of these Primarch dick-measuring contests. I think almost every Primarch could stand toe-to-toe with any other Primarch, it all boils down to circumstance like almost every other hypothetical encounter.


This is pretty much spot on. 

The fluff points to a few Primarchs being really good CC fighters, Sanguineous, Angron, Russ and Horus but they're all different aspects of fighting. Russ is a Brawler but not miles ahead of the others as you see with his tussle with The Lion. Sanguineous looks to be the most skilled fighter (before I start a fanboy holocaust I'm not saying he was the best just one of the more skilled), Angron is an indomitable battle hardened killing machine. Horus is in the middle of all three somewhere, skilled and tough, gets down and dirty when needed. They all have their own styles which makes tough to see how they would fair inside the octagon.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You're all dismissing The Khan and Fulgrim, several of the Primarchs have stated that they consider them skilled swordsmen, you're also ignoring Corax despite his battle prowess being proven twice, once on audio and once in the First Heretic.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You're all dismissing The Khan and Fulgrim, several of the Primarchs have stated that they consider them skilled swordsmen, you're also ignoring Corax despite his battle prowess being proven twice, once on audio and once in the First Heretic.


No one is saying those guys are not good, but they're not the 'best' which is what we're look at here. There is one bit of fluff that talks about it and that's Horus when he says who he thinks can beat him in combat, and he says Sanguineous, Angron and someone else, I think Russ?

So yeah Khan and Fulgrim are skilled, but all the primarchs are skilled. All the Primarchs have proven themselves to be excellent fighters far above any man or Astarte but how they related to each other is more subtle and harder to define.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> No one is saying those guys are not good, but they're not the 'best' which is what we're look at here. There is one bit of fluff that talks about it and that's Horus when he says who he thinks can beat him in combat, and he says Sanguineous, Angron and someone else, I think Russ?
> 
> So yeah Khan and Fulgrim are skilled, but all the primarchs are skilled. All the Primarchs have proven themselves to be excellent fighters far above any man or Astarte but how they related to each other is more subtle and harder to define.


Corax, because Corax bested him in a bout.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Well replace all my instances of Russ with Corax then. Horus says it in some fluff we that is all we know to be absolutely true.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax however was scared of Angron but thought himself ok with facing the other traitor primarchs during Raven's flight.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Corax however was scared of Angron but thought himself ok with facing the other traitor primarchs during Raven's flight.


In First Heretic, Corax was sweating and straining as he held Kurze's weapon at bay while Kurze wasn't visibly struggling at all.

So really it's all about perspective. Corax assumed only Angron could be taken on by X and B and Horus assumed he could take on C and D. They wouldn't really know unless they actually fought because speculation and reality don't really add up all the time.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

It all comes down to how exactly Russ is fighting against the other primarchs.

Jhagatai and Fulgrim and generally known as the best sworsmen of the primarchs, Fulgrim apparently being the best as the other primarchs let Fulgrim TEACH Curze how to fight with a sword.

In a fist fight against Ferrus Manus then i would sat Ferrus wins due to his necron metal hands. Fist fight against Lion i would say Lion as after their first brawl Lion knocked Russ out with a single punch to the face.

Russ against Angron in any form of fighting is no comparision as Angron is said to be one of the most deadly fighters of the primarch, going so far that even Corax said that he wouldnt want to fight Angron and that only Horus or Sanguinus could match him.

So i would say Russ could beat in a fight: Papa-smurf(Guilliman), Kurze, Lorgar, Magnus(as we have seen/read in Thousand sons), Mortarion, Corax, Perutrbo.(have i missed anyone?)


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

spoiler after reading tales of darkness: 
I also understood that night haunter got owned by the lion in the sword fight, it had the impression that the lion was sparring with him, then they got close, Lion was laphing and night haunter got all street fighter on him, in a hypothetical next encounter the Lion would have slain him pretty easily (that was the first fight between the nigh haunter and the Lion they never sparred before)
I indeed agree that Lorgar was the lamest of them all,
my money is on Sanguinis without any solid reasoning, but that is not required in this kind of topic


oh by the way, based upon the story describing the fight between night haunter and the Lion, it seemed that sigismund indeed was very koel with a blade, mwahahahah


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sanguineous wins* because he gets to flap around going 'LOL GROUNDFAGS', FACT.

*Or at least doesn't lose.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

piemelke said:


> spoiler after reading tales of darkness:
> I also understood that night haunter got owned by the lion in the sword fight, it had the impression that the lion was sparring with him, then they got close, Lion was laphing and night haunter got all street fighter on him, in a hypothetical next encounter the Lion would have slain him pretty easily (that was the first fight between the nigh haunter and the Lion they never sparred before)
> I indeed agree that Lorgar was the lamest of them all,
> my money is on Sanguinis without any solid reasoning, but that is not required in this kind of topic
> ...


To be fair the Lion did kind of "backstab" him except it was in the front


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I agree with CotE that all the primarchs could best one another and it all came down to the circumstance of the fights. But i also think that we cant use several instances between primarchs as automatic conclusions to who is a better fighter, for instance Curze knocking out Dorn and Johnson knocking out Russ, to me those are not valid pieces of evidence that show a primarch true combat potential. Something like Magnus against Russ was a more accurate and reliable source to judge the primarchs on their combat abilities, as it was a clear fight with no chaos powered or advantage bearer.


Plus whats all this talk about Ferrus Manus being out just because he died  , no reason not to include him in this, as you may also find that in previous threads that most people agreed that Ferrus would have most probably have won the fight if it was not for the Laer blade assisting Fulgrim :biggrin: . Also Ferrus was the second largest of the primarchs and a really huge brute who carried a massive warhammer, so i think he could give Russ a decent fight.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

@words of truth
that was the initial stab, later as the fight continued it became obvious that the lion was by far the better sword fighter, si I still stand by my point


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Short answer, no. Russ is not the king of close combat. Like many have said, all the primarchs were skilled fighters (with the exception of that pansy, Lorgar) and each had their own strengths and weaknesses which, depending on the circumstances, could mean victory or defeat for any of them. For example, Fulgrim might be able to beat any of the primarchs in a duel of swords, but he'd probably get destroyed in a bare fisted fight against Ferrus or an axe duel versus Angron. This doens't make any of them specifically better overall fighters, they just excel in different areas.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> Plus whats all this talk about Ferrus Manus being out just because he died  , no reason not to include him in this, as you may also find that in previous threads that most people agreed that Ferrus would have most probably have won the fight if it was not for the Laer blade assisting Fulgrim :biggrin: . Also Ferrus was the second largest of the primarchs and a really huge brute who carried a massive warhammer, so i think he could give Russ a decent fight.


I could Argue Fulgrim could have won easie if Ferrus didnt have a weapon or Necron metal hands. The fight had Fulgrim beating Ferrus fair and square the first time, and he was jumped by a enraged Ferrus. The second time he beat Ferrus again, he just happen to have the Laer Blade. Thats twice Ferrus was beaten by Fulgrim. But I put Ferrus above Logar, Vulcan, Dorn, Guilliman, and Petrubo.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> I could Argue Fulgrim could have won easie if Ferrus didnt have a weapon or Necron metal hands. The fight had Fulgrim beating Ferrus fair and square the first time, and he was jumped by a enraged Ferrus. The second time he beat Ferrus again, he just happen to have the Laer Blade. Thats twice Ferrus was beaten by Fulgrim. But I put Ferrus above Logar, Vulcan, Dorn, Guilliman, and Petrubo.


Can't really judge Dorn though as from what we've to go on, he personally think he can beat everyone, but fears Curze.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Can't really judge Dorn though as from what we've to go on, he personally think he can beat everyone, but fears Curze.


Exactly, he has no showings and thus ranks low IMO.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I could Argue Fulgrim could have won easie if Ferrus didnt have a weapon or Necron metal hands. The fight had Fulgrim beating Ferrus fair and square the first time, and he was jumped by a enraged Ferrus. The second time he beat Ferrus again, he just happen to have the Laer Blade. Thats twice Ferrus was beaten by Fulgrim. But I put Ferrus above Logar, Vulcan, Dorn, Guilliman, and Petrubo.


I see your point that Fulgrim would have won easier if Ferrus was in situation X just the same as Ferrus would have won easier if Fulgrim didnt have the Laer Blade, but i dont see why we should penalize Ferrus of his metal hands or even his weapon in the fight. What im saying is not to include any chaos related or powered primarchs but instead refer to them just before the heresy (their natural selves with no intrusion), because including chaos in this would just make it unfair and overpowered, just like in the other thread about all primarchs being in an arena and who would one except Horus was at his peak point with the blessing of the four gods, which made the whole scene rather pointless.

I mean Sanguinas had wings, Magnus was extremely huge (and red ), Corax had quick senses due to his upbringing and adaptation to Deliverence (such as the eyes) and Angron had brain implants that caused him to go Berserk and obtain his aggressive nature which he is famous for, all of the features were of their natural state (except Angron) and pre heresy yet no one proposes that we remove these features from the primarchs, so why remove Ferrus of his metal hands?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Exactly, he has no showings and thus ranks low IMO.


I would argue he doesn't rank at all  then again if we go off Space Marines from the Legions that are thought to be the best "normal" Space Marine, then Sigismund was included along with Abaddon and Sevatar, that must count for something.




Ferrus Manus said:


> I see your point that Fulgrim would have won easier if Ferrus was in situation X just the same as Ferrus would have won easier if Fulgrim didnt have the Laer Blade, but i dont see why we should penalize Ferrus of his metal hands or even his weapon in the fight. What im saying is not to include any chaos related or powered primarchs but instead refer to them just before the heresy (their natural selves with no intrusion), because including chaos in this would just make it unfair and overpowered, just like in the other thread about all primarchs being in an arena and who would one except Horus was at his peak point with the blessing of the four gods, which made the whole scene rather pointless.
> 
> I mean Sanguinas had wings, Magnus was extremely huge (and red ), Corax had quick senses due to his upbringing and adaptation to Deliverence (such as the eyes) and Angron had brain implants that caused him to go Berserk and obtain his aggressive nature which he is famous for, all of the features were of their natural state (except Angron) and pre heresy yet no one proposes that we remove these features from the primarchs, so why remove Ferrus of his metal hands?


Corax could also become practically invisible, he had a form of natural stealth. I wonder whether Alpharius and Omegon would of be jealous of him if they knew.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In First Heretic, Corax was sweating and straining as he held Kurze's weapon at bay while Kurze wasn't visibly struggling at all.


at most, that would show that a fresh Curze was physically stronger than a Corax who had been in battle and dueled Lorgar
and since Curze is all about psychological warfare and spooking people, maybe Curze was concealing his effort? I mean, Curze even calls him "little Raven".


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> I see your point that Fulgrim would have won easier if Ferrus was in situation X just the same as Ferrus would have won easier if Fulgrim didnt have the Laer Blade, but i dont see why we should penalize Ferrus of his metal hands or even his weapon in the fight. What im saying is not to include any chaos related or powered primarchs but instead refer to them just before the heresy (their natural selves with no intrusion), because including chaos in this would just make it unfair and overpowered, just like in the other thread about all primarchs being in an arena and who would one except Horus was at his peak point with the blessing of the four gods, which made the whole scene rather pointless.


In the first bout was a fair fight. Fulgrim did not take his Laer sword but instead opted to take Ferrus sword. Ferrus used Fulgrims Warhammer. The fight brokeout and in the end Ferrus broke the flaming sword and Fulgrim used his Warhammer to knock Ferrus out. No Laer Sword. At all. The whole Fulgrim is tough with his Laer Sword is BS as well. It shouldnt matter at all. The Sword didnt increase Fulgrim in any way, it was a Power Weapon that curropted him, nothing more. Thats like saying Crowe in GKs is Abbaddon with his Daemon Weapon, but thats not the case at all. Fulgrim also choked out a Avatar of Khain to death with his bare hands, thats a fukin feat.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

John Smith & Joe Sixpack, the 2 lost primarchs, could beat Russ anytime.

Nah just kidding. But seriously IMO only Angron & Sanguinius could defeat Russ.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Leman Russ is the king. He wins. Deal With It.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Abomination said:


> Leman Russ is the king. He wins. Deal With It.


Citation Needed


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm still going with Sanguinius, anyone that can snap a bloodthirster over his knee is ok in my book lol


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

turel2 said:


> I'm still going with Sanguinius, anyone that can snap a bloodthirster over his knee is ok in my book lol


Fulgrim choked a Avatar of Khain to death with his bare hands. Horus beaten a powerful DP of Nurgle Temba with the Anathame. Magnus has beaten a possible LoC Tzeentch GDs in a Thousand Sons under the Mountains, and done so mant times in the Warp. Its not to far out their for a Primarch to beat something like a GD. Hell Draigo beat and Carved his name in GD and DP Primarchs all day. Hes just a Astartes!


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