# Loyalist Primarch returns



## NiceGuyEddy

Before I start I want to get out of the way that I don't seriously expect GW to bring back a Primarch so try to think of this in the context of the 40k universe not GW's. Also who can come back has been pretty well documented on this site so for the purpose of brevity I'm assuming the only ones that we can feel certain have a reasonable chance of coming back are Russ, Vulkan, Corax and the Lion.

(1) First a simple yes or no. Do you want a Primarch to return or are you happy enough with the current status quo.

(2) What would happen if they did? I.e would one single solitary primarch be enough to spur the imperium to victory? Would the imperium trust/tolerate a returned primarch? Would a primarch be satisfied to take a backseat and obey the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, Administratum etc.

(3) How could GW bring one back for a prolonged stay? What I'm looking for here is scenarios that GW could use to allow for all of the above conditions to be met. Be creative.


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## gen.ahab

Yes, because there is an 80-90% chance it will send the galaxy into a giant war..... well and even bigger giant war.


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## Baron Spikey

No because I hold to the belief that, excepting the Lion, they're all dead- I appreciate them saying they'd return (well okay Corax and the Khan didn't) but I view it as being akin to the return of King Arthur rather than a plausible possibility.


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## Brother Subtle

Who's unaccounted for/missing in the warp?

Corax, Vulkan, Russ and Khan?

The Lion's hidden somewhere in stasis, and Gulliman is on display in stasis (but dead for all intensive purposes).


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## Moggy3d

probs yes with the lion but thats all and ive always wondered what those lil jawa fellas were actually doing down in the rock


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## foulacy

There is theories that all of them could potentially come back, I don't believe it though, I believe Russ, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are alive though.


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## Cruor99

Brother Subtle said:


> The Lion's hidden somewhere in stasis, and Gulliman is on display in stasis (but dead for all intensive purposes).


Actually, I believe it was stated that the Lion was sleeping, implying a coma - not in stasis.

And I am holding my reserves as to what would happen, should a primarch return. I fear that the Inquisition might assasinate them, on the grounds that they spout 'heresy' in refuting The Emperor's ascention to godhood. At the very least, I believe that their 'Legion' (Because let's face it, the successor chapters answer to their Primarch - The Unforgiven obviously so.) would all be excommunicated, and an internal war would begin anew. That is, unless the gilded corpse actually made a move.


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## Angel of Blood

I would like to see one return, although the consequences of a return would be huge. Lets take the Lion for now as he is easily the most plausible for returning, and for the sake of the example ignoring the 'lion is a traitor' theories. Firstly the Dark Angels themselves and all their successors are going to swear alleigance to him obviously, it doesnt even need to be said. The High Lords though wouldn't be happy about a primarch returning at all, he would be a massive threat to them, other Astartes chapters would look to him, guardman regiments, many citizens would all look to them as nothing short of demi-gods being a son of the God-Emperor. They would see potential for a heresy and civil war again. 

I don't know if they would go so far as trying to assassinate him as if it was found out they ordered the assassination there would be outright war, i don't think it matters which Primarch returned i imagine a massive percentage of Chapters would instantly wage war on the High Lords as would untold number of others, the fallout would be huge. I would see the High Lords instead putting said Primarch in charge of some sort of campaign (the Tau maybe?) too keep him far out of their way and busy, and hopefully killed in the process.


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## Turkeyspit

I don't think it is an accident that every single Primarch is either:

a) dead
b) missing / presumed dead / hidden away in a stasis field
c) a traitor / daemon lord

The Primarchs were part of the 'golden age' if you will; when the Emperor embarked on his great crusade to reunite the pockets of mankind, and secure for them the ownership of the galaxy.

But something went wrong..............dotdotdot

So now you are back in the Dark Ages, where the Imperium is ruled by petty bureaucracies, more interested in their own interests than the interests of humanity, with Inquisitors running around keeping the populace in fear of aliens, mutants, psykers, and little blond kids with the last name Bieber.

I supposed they could bring back the Primarchs, but that would be a beacon of light in the dark void that is M41, and GW may not want things to get 'better'.


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## NiceGuyEddy

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, because there is an 80-90% chance it will send the galaxy into a giant war..... well and even bigger giant war.


I'd have to agree. One Primarch wouldn't necessarily be an autowin scenario for the Imperium but would make it interesting. 

I reckon if the Lion came back it would probably end badly for the Imperium. I don't think he's one to sit back and follow the man. So I reckon either DA would breakaway or he'd end up being assassinated for trying to assert his authority.

Russ might conceivably make it a little longer. Although obviously not one to be under the yoke of the Imperium the structure and autonomy of SM chapters would suit him and allow him to go on a bit of a slaughter fest. Doubt the High Lords would be receiving their gene seed quota though. I don't think Russ would try to claim the throne he always struck me as more of a follower but maybe Prospero Burns might change that. Only wielding a chapter and not a legion would also allow GW to limit Russ's overall influence on the game whilst still giving a massive twist and boost to the fluff.

Corax or Vulkan coming back? Who knows, we don't really know enough about their charachters to gauge whether or not they'd be able to survive in the 41st millenium or would be assassinated/rejected.


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## Angel of Blood

Dont forget though that the Wolves are several times larger than a standard chapter


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

NiceGuyEddy said:


> I'd have to agree. One Primarch wouldn't necessarily be an autowin scenario for the Imperium but would make it interesting.


I would go as far as to say that any loyal Primarch returning would be a disaster for the Imperium.


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## gen.ahab

Angel of Blood said:


> Dont forget though that the Wolves are several times larger than a standard chapter


How large do you think they are? At most they are around 2k.


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## Chompy Bits

If any loyalist primarch had to return the imperium would be screwed. I can't see any loyal son of the emperor being particularly impressed by the way things are currently being run. Thus, another massive civil war will probably break out between the high lords and their followers and which ever primarch returns and their followers. The imperium's enemies will probably try to take advantage of this (maybe another black crusade or massive expansion by the tau). The imperium in its weakened state would probably collapse from the internal and external pressures. Would be one hell of a show though.

Now, if ALL the missing loyalist primarchs returned...


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## Angel of Blood

I'm sure its been stated the Space Wolves are significantly larger than the other chapters. Each Great Company alone is meant to be near chapter strength with no difinitve numbers, each one possibly 1000 strong, they don't have any sucessor chapters after all and the Space Wolves were one of the smaller legions


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## Stephen_Newman

You could imagine it. Khan "escaped" but in reality was never captured, the lion left a fake on the rock whilst giving the watchers asleep. and the other "missing" primarchs are just lying. Basically like little schoolboys they decided to bunk off the imperium and all hide out at the local equivalent of Mcdonalds, pub and cheap motel for 10000 years. They decided to just go back now.


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## gen.ahab

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm sure its been stated the Space Wolves are significantly larger than the other chapters. Each Great Company alone is meant to be near chapter strength with no difinitve numbers, each one possibly 1000 strong, they don't have any sucessor chapters after all and the Space Wolves were one of the smaller legions


It was, before the heresy. Now each great company numbers between 100 and 200 men.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

I'd say, yes. Just as long as it's *NOT GULLIMAN*. We don't need _another_ excuse for people to play Ultramarines.


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## Stephen_Newman

Luckily it is already established that he would die very soon after being released from stasis and apparently nothing can cure him!


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## davidmumma66

The Lion would mostly likely return and well lets face it, If a primarch returned particularly one like Russ or the Lion, there'd be war, i'd see most if not all the space marines following the "last" primarch that isn't a daemon dead or still lost, and huge swathes of guard jumping ship, not all but most, meaning war would once again return to terra, And shit would hit the fan for the empire, but who knows who'd win, but i guarantee you with the skills and sense of a primarch, i doubt an assissin alone would take him down, plus the space marines who would undoubtedly follow him or any other primarch for that matter to the grim bloody ending that would probably happen, one hell of a great campaign idea though.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

I'm not sure it would be an unmitigated disaster for the Imperium should a loyal Primarch re-appear. At heart all of them were pragmatists; they might not like how things have turned out, they might be upset at the loss of the Imperial Truth, but they would know that they, and whatever forces they could gather to themselves, would do nothing more than desatbilise the Imperium, leaving it open to attack from many other quarters.
I imagine that they would be incredibly circumspect in how they revealed themselves, waiting and watching, seeing where the power lies and who is posing the greatest danger. I agree that the High Lords and Inquisition would hate it, though; all of a sudden you have a loose cannon, one that will attract support from all quarters and could form a focal point for those unhappy with the status-quo who might take the opportunity to strike.
There would be a period of real instability whilst everyone waited to see what the others would do, but I think that a Primarch would know that they can do more with a united a strong Imperium rather than rushing in and plunging it into a huge civil war because they haven't adjusted to the realities of life in 40k.

GFP


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## X FiftY 1ne

Yes. Bringing back the Primarchs only furthers the progression. It doesn't mean the story is coming closer to and end....Hell, I don't even think Warhammer 40k has an ending. The lore is so expansive bringing the Primarchs back further brings the story to life and adds a another element. A very interesting one at that.

I can only hope this is in future plans for GW. Bring on the fluff.


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## cragnes417

I agree with GFP it would be really awkard for the imperium but it also would mean that the primarch might keeps some claim for his chapter and there succesor's but i would think the primarch would let his army contiue what they were doing which would be protecting humanity and blah blah only thing different of the mission's or battle would be the fact they would follow the primarch's command


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## Angel of Blood

Ultimately no matter what the Primarch chooses to do the High Lord are not going to be happy about him being back with the expection of a few, possibly the Captain-General of the Custodes. Like i said before i imagine if the Primarch was to put aside how the Imperium as become he would be sent to some far corner of the galaxy by the High Lords and kept as far from interfering as possible


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## Unknown Primarch

yes, i would like to see the return of any or all of the loyalists.

i personally cant see why it would be a bad thing really as all imperial citizens know of the primarchs and what they have done for the imperium and im sure having them back on the field of battle would greatly improve imperial zeal. 
the marines would fight even harder and also maybe be able to produce better geneseed with the original source and the knowledge they would hold about the geneseed too. 
the imperial guard would also be an improved force knowing that a primarch was leading the imperial forces in any number of battles and against any foe they would face.
i cant see the high lords or inquistion really having much trouble with a figurehead of the imperium back on the scene either, as those organisations were in power when the primarchs were around and im sure if the inquistion didnt assassinate thor then they wont try it on one of the emperors loyal sons. so all in all a returning primarch would only be a good thing and wouldnt unbalance the fluff either as they cant be in every place in the galaxy at the same time.

as for my choice, its gotta be russ. he has the best character and scope for any BL material that would follow and the fact you could expand on alot of the stuff he may have done on his travels and also have such a good play with his views on things like what the imperium has turned into and his views on the new enemies of the imperium he hasnt encountered before plus the fact he could go any number of ways in strengthening his legion and they would all fit nicely into the fluff without to much retconning type fluff coming out of it. maybe we need to start a petition on facebook and see if GW would respond.

just a little run down on the others.

Lion: no as he is just too moody and the troubles he caused at caliban would send the fluff haywire and be more of a hinderance than a advantage.

Guilleman: no as the reason people hate the ultramarines so much isnt because they are the posterboys but they got a primarch with zero personality and charisma and it doesnt get fans stoked up when he is mentioned in any fluff (unless your name is baron spikey)

Vulkan and Corax: we dont know anything about these 2 so to me unlike the above primarch who we like/dislike these 2 just dont command the same amount of fandom as the others so maybe the fanbase would take to what we learn about them as much as the others and we would forever being saying we wish it was one of the others.

the Khan: my personal view would be he is dead as 10000 years in the webway having to fight and evade eldar/dark eldar and those phoenix lords and probably having no food would mean the chances of survival are very slim at best. plus he is another one who GW havent fleshed out the fluff enough to get people interested enough for them to justify his return.


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## Angel of Blood

I agree that Russ would be the most interesting, but your arguement against the Khan is a bit strange to me. The Khan was just as fierce as the other more hot headed primarchs and had a great victory count, i'm sure he could find something to eat on his travels. But most importantly you say you think he's dead because hes been fighting/elluding the eldar/dark eldar for 10,000 years? Russ has hardly been in a land of fluffy pink bunnies for the last 10k either. I would say he's far more likely to be dead than Khan.


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## gen.ahab

"had a great victory count" They all did, they're primarchs. Khan is in the webway, it would be nearly impossible to navigate it. At least the eye has some semblance to our section of space, khan might not be so lucky.


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## Angel of Blood

From what i gather the eye has absoloutely no semblance of our space, it's in constant change, populated by infinite number of deamons, traitor marines, the realm of the god themselves. It's chaos, literally and figuratively. The laws of reality cease to exist, it's not nearly impossible to navigate, it IS impossible to navigate, time means nothing, Russ could have been in there for 5 years, he could have been in their for 40,000 years, he will can and probably has seen things that would ruin anyones sanity. Give me the webway over that anyday.

And on the victories note i probably worded badly, but he was by the sounds of it equal to Russ in victories, and considered to have quite a high amount going by what was said about Dorn in Horus Rising


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## gen.ahab

It is half reality, half warp. It shifts, but it is possible to navigate, assuming the masters of the warp don't have it out for you. The 13th company has shown that marines can be effective within it. There has been imperial expeditions that went into the eye, many did not return, but some did. The primarchs are of the warp, I assume that it would be slightly less of an impact to them than a normal man. Also, Russ is a brutal, cold, ferocious, butcher; I don't think what he would see within the eye to emotionally jarring.


Russ was something of a bat; he was probably moved around and used when particularly large amounts of butchery was needed. So he probably did have more victories.


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## Angel of Blood

If any have returned it has been sheer luck, the Eye isn't as simple as a mix of warp space and reality, its still utterly chaotic, like i said reality ceases to exist as do all the conventioanl laws. No one can know if even a being such as Russ mind could cope with what he could possibly see in there, he could literally see anything possible and the impossible, the 13th company were lucky to a degree, hardly any of them are left compared to their original numbers, plus we have no idea how long they were in there, thye might have only fought for 50 years before escaping to the present. Point is the Eye is a far worse place to be than the webway if you ask me. At least you have a semblance of reality and laws insdie the webway, there isnt a infinite number of deamons, the gods and legions of traitor marines and all the other vile creatures that inhabit the Eye


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## gen.ahab

They have been in there for at least 600 years. Navigators can still function in the eye, so it is still possible to get around, just very very difficult.


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## Angel of Blood

No easier than the Webway


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## gen.ahab

Did he go in with a ship? I once heard he went in on his bike, if so, was he hiding a navigator in his saddle bag?


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## Angel of Blood

Well Russ is pretty armourless these days, never a fantastic sign, his Navigator could and probably did die a long long time ago.


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## Stephen_Newman

Russ just took his bodyguard-excluding Bjorn of course.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> At heart all of them were pragmatists


The Primarchs were a lot of things, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to describe them as pragmatists (with the notable exception of Alpharius).


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## NiceGuyEddy

I know I didn't mention Khan as a possible survivor but it could happen. Russ and Corax too for that matter. The Emperor spent thousands of years amoungst humanity waiting for the right time to announce his presence. Sure Russ wandered off to the eye and Khan to the webway but for all we know they might have come straight back.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

I thought Dorn might still be alive.


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## Angel of Blood

Apart from the bit where his corpse is encased in amber on the Phalanx?


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## gen.ahab

The old fart has checked out.


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## NiceGuyEddy

gen.ahab said:


> The old fart has checked out.


Haha:laugh: Dorn's popularity really has suffered in recent times. 

My abiding memories of Dorn are:

Him spending his time on Terra sulking about ruining the imperial palace with battlements while everyone else does the real fighting.

Getting wailed on by NH

Getting hundreds (thousands?) of his marines massacred in a meat grinder.

And being the only primarch, that we know of, to get himself killed, against his will unlike NH, by a non primarch (or emperor). 



Hopefully an author will eventually decide to throw Dorn a bone.


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## gen.ahab

I didn't like him before I knew he as a dipshit prick.


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## Angel of Blood

Don't forget without the intervention of Keeler he also would have killed the loyalist marine who brought warning of the Heresy


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## Abomination

I'd like the Primarchs return. Especially Leman Russ. The Space Wolves kick so much ass already and with him back we'd become unstoppable. Then we can start Great Crusade 2.0.


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## Chimaera

Well I always think the Primarchs will return in an "End of Days" scenario for the Imperium of man. Chaos & all the other forces set against man will be at the castle keep when the Primarchs march in and turn the tide of man's destiny. 

I would like to think somehow the Emperor sends a psychic blast/beacon showing the ones lost the way home and those asleep or in stasis the life force to rise once more. He calls them to his side once last time and in his death throws gives them the guidance needed to steer man's utter deafeat into total victory. As his life force ebb's away he gives them a psychic gift in the form of some of his own life force/power to enable them to complete what seems like an impossible task. With this gift/enhanced individual power they set off to their relevant Chapters to revitalise the fortunes of man and the Imperium.

Well thats my stroll down whisical lane over. It what self gratifying while it lasted


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## MuSigma

*Returning Primarch*

Begs the question - why didnt a Primarch ascend the Throne or rulership of the Empire in the first place - instead of coming back 10k years later, why did they not take control in the 30k era.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MuSigma said:


> Begs the question - why didnt a Primarch ascend the Throne or rulership of the Empire in the first place - instead of coming back 10k years later, why did they not take control in the 30k era.


Because there would have likely been another civil war instantly. 9 Primarchs had just laid waste to the entire Imperium, would you have happily given the Emperor's mantle to another? 

Out of the Primarchs though Rogal Dorn was probably in the best position to take over rulership of the fledging Imperium given that the Emperor had granted him total and complete control of all the Imperium's armed forces, but following the Emperor's ascension he was a broken man. That leaves Roboute Guilliman, who was not only a reknowned administrator but controlled the single-most powerful and largest military force in the Imperium at the end of the Heresy, but his unprecedented reforms majorly weakened the influence of the Primarchs and Astartes Legions (arguably) and placed the High Lords of Terra in overall command. Afterall the Primarchs were warlords first and rulers second.


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## meinhardt

A Primarch would assume the control over the dominion of his 'Chapter'. If the successor Chapters all decide to reaffirm their allegience you may even see the re-establishment of the LEGION, which would undoubtedly make the High Lords take drastic measures. But at that point what force is out there that could wipe out a Legion of Astartes led by their Progenator? Who amongst the Imperiums generals could go toe to toe with the intellect and foresight of a Primarch that has learned from the Emperor himself and survived 10k years of warfare? I could see Robutte waking up and realizing that the only way to save his Homeworld at this point would be to reunite his own legion.

So the answer is two-fold.

First, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Second, WITHOUT A DOUBT


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## meinhardt

MuSigma said:


> Begs the question - why didnt a Primarch ascend the Throne or rulership of the Empire in the first place - instead of coming back 10k years later, why did they not take control in the 30k era.


Because the Emperor was and still is still on the Throne.


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## Lord of the Night

Yes but only at the Time of Ending. When the apocalypse truly begins, Chaos pours from the Eye of Terror in numbers that will make the 13th Black Crusade seem like a border skirmish, and the xenos rise up in massive armies to batter the gates of mankind. Only then should the Primarchs return to lead the Astartes into the ultimate final battle, or as the Eldar call it the Rhana Dandra.

Any time before that and no. The Primarchs are the stuff of myths and legends incarnate, they don't belong in the 41st millennium.


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## LukeValantine

Yah it only seems applicable for them to return if the end times come, and then only as a excuse by GW to keep the current models/army lines valid, by having stuff stay more or less the same. 

Still having a single Primarch come back wouldn't be game changing, but then again what ever chapter receive such a honor, would be the new UM in everyone's eyes. Oh look Russ returned yah lets all go play SW now. After all their was a reason, that every chapters remaining primarchs disappeared, or screwed off to a Daemon world forever. A) their rules are overpowered even in appoc, and B) people flock to the most powerful or characterful chapters like flies. SW/BA/UM with unrepresented or vanilla chapters getting the least attention by gamers. (Holds true for chaos to).


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## Master_Marius

In Dark Angels 4th edition codex say that when we really need Lion he will come back. Now we really really need him. xD


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## davidmumma66

So true Marius, the dark angels need me him for than ever


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## TraitorsHand

Personally I said yes, purely to see Leman Russ and Magnus the Red go at it once more. Their fight was amazing and to see them fight again this time with Magnus the Red even stronger would be simply mind boggling.


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## Daddysen

If a Primarch were to comeback why couldn't they use the returning Primarchs DNA to repair the Emperor. I mean they were all made from his DNA. Just make a clone to harvest organs. Just a thought.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Daddysen said:


> If a Primarch were to comeback why couldn't they use the returning Primarchs DNA to repair the Emperor. I mean they were all made from his DNA. Just make a clone to harvest organs. Just a thought.


The Emperor is essentially dead, his body little more than a fragile half-skeleton entombed in stasis. Its not a simple matter of growing him a few organs...

And aside from that, in an Imperium which zealously worships the Emperor as a god, tampering with his corpse would be one of the highest forms of heresy and blasphemy so good luck with that!


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## ckcrawford

So far the closest BL has come to bringing back a primarch is the Salamander goose chase over the artifacts. Some speculate that this will bring the return of Vulkan. But thats all I know.


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## Kit

I voted yes. I would like to see Jaghatai Khan return (I like to think he is deep in the warp fighting constantly). He was always for the unification of the imperium. I also think Russ, Lion'el and Corax will return. The rest are dead/should stay dead.


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## SnoopyChicken

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Emperor is essentially dead, his body little more than a fragile half-skeleton entombed in stasis. Its not a simple matter of growing him a few organs...
> 
> And aside from that, in an Imperium which zealously worships the Emperor as a god, tampering with his corpse would be one of the highest forms of heresy and blasphemy so good luck with that!


Whilst I agree that it couldnt be done, I think that if it could be done they probably would be desperate enough to do it, regardless of the blasphemy, now the thrones failing


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## gothik

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Before I start I want to get out of the way that I don't seriously expect GW to bring back a Primarch so try to think of this in the context of the 40k universe not GW's. Also who can come back has been pretty well documented on this site so for the purpose of brevity I'm assuming the only ones that we can feel certain have a reasonable chance of coming back are Russ, Vulkan, Corax and the Lion.
> 
> (1) First a simple yes or no. Do you want a Primarch to return or are you happy enough with the current status quo.
> 
> (2) What would happen if they did? I.e would one single solitary primarch be enough to spur the imperium to victory? Would the imperium trust/tolerate a returned primarch? Would a primarch be satisfied to take a backseat and obey the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, Administratum etc.
> 
> (3) How could GW bring one back for a prolonged stay? What I'm looking for here is scenarios that GW could use to allow for all of the above conditions to be met. Be creative.


1. yes as it would make things rather interesting

2. in my opinion it would stir things up the Space marines do not see the emperor as a god more as the father of thier fathers and a very exceptional man not human and immortal but not a god. The High lords will see this as a threat to thier power base and would probably try and get rid or proclaim him as a heretic probably a clone made by the ruinous powers as thier hold over the way the marins work would shatter.

3. ok take the lion for example seeing as he is the only one that is pheasably still alive. we know that he is sleeping somewhere in the rock, wherabouts who knows but maybe Luthors rantings suddenly quieten down as he is raving at the moment about how the Lion will return and forgive him, the ones that watch over him might get a little disquetend about how silent he has gone and the aura around the rock has changed. you know they say when a Primarch enters the room everyone knows it be it sheer magnetism, power or the fact they are the emperors sons whatever it is there will be no doubt that there will be an air of something around the rock. 
Cyphr returns with the sword that he has been carrying around for his long years of exile and goes down to the sacred hollow where the lion is sleeping and puts the sword in his hand and take it from there. 
the lion returns with a forgiven if not slightly unhinged Luthor and forgiven Cyphr. i can't see the Lion bowing down to the High Lords and i do believe that a civil war might ensue and if that is the case then the ruinous powers can sit back and let the Imperium tear itself apart for the lion will want to finish what he and his brothers started.

just my two penneth worth you also have to think that the Lion was one of the more secretive of the Primarchs and hedged his bets a little his conversastion with Perturabo is the hint of that and maybe if what Astalan said was true i see no reason for the Lion to have changed of all the Primarchs and i am not a big fan of the Lion or his secretive warrior monks i honestly believe he will be a bigger threat then Horus ever was.


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## Androxine Vortex

I say yes because it would just open upon a wide plethora of windows for new story plots. I think it would be interesting to see which one would come back and I think it would give the Imperium beter chances against Chaos (or aynthing else)

The only problem I can see is that they would pretty much assume dominant control and the High Lords might fell overpowered. 

I'm not really sure on the whereabouts of all the Primarchs so I'll have to look into that.


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## AgentOrange24

Hmm...Don't think they would be so easily assassinated as some people believe.

The latest HH book makes it clear just how hard it would be to kill a Primarch. Also, a Primarch would easily be the greatest being left on the Imperium. Not really anything, save the Emperor coming around would be able to defy him.


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## Androxine Vortex

Yeah, i agree. They would definetly lead the Imperium but some might think he is trying to take the Emperor's authority

(and whats the newest HH book? Isnt it the assasin one? I'm just starting Mechanicum)


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## Hialmar

A Loyalist Primarch returning would probably lead to a new revolt/heresy type event, as the Imperium has strayed so far from the days of the Primarchs and the Emperor's ideals that I could see major issues with most Imperial organizations, especially the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition. Could just abot picture all of the marines, Grey Knights included rallying to Primarch's side as they took on the rest of the Imperium with some planets/systems siding with the marines.


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## Lucian Kain

One word FEAR...who would raise an opinion against the possible son of god, all true believers amongst the high lords would assassinate or at least castrate any high lord who dared show any resistance to the chance of a fair hearing.A true Primarch would have every loyalist marine in the Galixy at his side who could systematically raise the entire galixy to smoldering rock if concerntrated on one goal at a time, that is something to fear,what would happen to you if you were to be found plotting against that sort of orthority,either that or the Grey Knights would syrgically remove you from power befor you could even cause a fuss,thier highest ranking members are part of the highest circle of high lords anyhow,uncoruptable and the highest authority of mankind-No civil war as my conclution,maybe some minor actions a couple of planets vapourised,kick out the jams...


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## Angel of Blood

I doubt that very much. There would be war no doubt. I also don't believe all the Astartes would side with the returned Primarch. Remember all the astartes now see the Emperor as a god, and are not too forgiving to those who claim he isn't. A Primarch would be just that, by denouncing the Emperor as a God and instead insisting him to be just his father and an incredible being the primarch would be decalred a heretic and blasphermer by the majority of the Imperium.

I don't think all the marines would show a particular unshakeable loyalty to the primarch either. The 9 founding legions might, the said Primarchs own chapter of course. But i don't see the rest following blind. The more pragmatic chapters might even recognise how the return of the Primarch would turn the Imperium on its head and go against him for the good of the Imperium. Even the Grey Knights, they answer to the Emperor, they do what is best for him and the fight against chaos, the Imperium errupting into civil war is not what is best for either party, so i doubt they would instantly throw their wieght behind the primarch either.

Best result as i've said before is the High Lords effectively exile the primarch on some campaign on the other side of the galaxy, cleanse the tau, fight the necrons, tackle a hivefleet, eye of terror etc etc, keep him out the way and with any luck get him killed


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## Baron Spikey

Angel of Blood said:


> Remember all the astartes now see the Emperor as a god, and are not too forgiving to those who claim he isn't. A Primarch would be just that, by denouncing the Emperor as a God and instead insisting him to be just his father and an incredible being the primarch would be decalred a heretic and blasphermer by the majority of the Imperium.


All the Astartes don't see the Emperor as a God, it's actually the minority of Chapters who hold that view point. That's 1 of the major reasons why the relationship between the Chaplaincies and the Ministorum is so strained.


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## Angel of Blood

Could've fooled me with all the references to the god-emperor and their prayers in the codexs and books

Either way the point still stands, i don't see all the chapters going to the primarchs side


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## Baron Spikey

You mean their Ancestor Worship? The Codex specifically states (on Page 5) that whereas the rest of the Imperium


> _worships a beneficent god, the Space Marine venerates an ancestral patriarch_


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## Angel of Blood

Well i've probably just read a few to many mentions in some books and codexs of marines mentioning the god-emperor. Either way im wrong on that count, fair enough. Still doesn't change the point i was making


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## gothik

if the astartes started believing that the emperor is a god then the whole lot can go to pot. its what started the heresy off with Lorgars boys worship of the emperor rejected and if the Astartes started believing that then those leigons that still hold true that he is a powerful father/grandfather figure (however you want to see it) would end up siding with the returned primarch, those that see him as a god would side with the ecclisarchy and one almight holy jihad would start.


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## Davidicus 40k

If Russ came back, that'd be so sweet. He'd see the thousands of tanks (and their variants) named after him and be like, "Damn straight!"

Oh, and I'm sure he'd fuck some Chaos shit up, but that goes without saying.


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## NiceGuyEddy

Just to play devil's advocate every single time we see primarchs in the HH novels the viewers are "paralysed by their majesty", "unable to behold such perfection", "brought to tears by the charisma" etc. etc. Even astartes describe primarchs as such, and not just their own primarchs suggesting a possibly latent psychic charisma/mind control effect that even astartes are vulnerable to. Basically no one that comes into contact with a primarch doubts for even a second that they are looking at a primarch, with the annoying exception of Alpharius/Omegon. 

When you consider the fact that many worlds and chapters hold the primarchs in enormously high esteem if not outright worship them than it would seem that the return of a primarch would be accepted by people IF they met/saw him in person. 

Ultimately this doesn't massively change anything as due to the well documented shortcomings of 40k communication the verification of the legitimacy of a primarch would be difficult. The high lords of terra, the inquisition, doubtful astartes chapters and any other doubter would have to be met and convinced in person.


----------



## Angel of Blood

gothik said:


> if the astartes started believing that the emperor is a god then the whole lot can go to pot. its what started the heresy off with Lorgars boys worship of the emperor rejected and if the Astartes started believing that then those leigons that still hold true that he is a powerful father/grandfather figure (however you want to see it) would end up siding with the returned primarch, those that see him as a god would side with the ecclisarchy and one almight holy jihad would start.


I think you've missed part of the grand irony that is the Horus Heresy and the beliefs in 30k itself. Some marines do think the Emperor is a god, ture Barons corected that not all of them do but some chapters certainly do. Take one Nathaniel Garro aswell, he believed the Emperor was a god and was loyal as they come. Either way like i said thats part of the ironic twist of the heresy, at the very base level it started with the Word Bearers believing the the Emperor to be a god and being rejected and told not too. Now in 40k the vast majority of the Imperium all believe he is a god. 

Combine that with the Primarch coming back, legendary or not they may be, citzens are going to be annoyed when he starts getting angry cause suddenly everyone believes the Emperor to be a god.

Over to NiceGuyEddie, it's not a case of the Primarchs being awed etc or having to confirm one is a Primarch or not. At the end of the day the High Lords aren't going to like one being gathering so much support again. The Primarch is doubtfully going to like what the Imperium has become, cue big rifts, big fights, general upset. And on another note, do most Imperial citizens hold the primarchs in very high regard? Do most even know who the Primarchs are? Is it taught to them as they grow up, i doubt it, alot seem woefully ignorant on information on the astartes themselves, nevermind their history


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## Moggy3d

khan could still be alive in the webway beating bitches up in the dark eldar city incharge of his own cabal/ escapee slaves and bieng a thorn in the dark eldars sides:training: maybe eating a soul or two to keep himself in shape and knock off a few years


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## SnoopyChicken

Angel of Blood said:


> Combine that with the Primarch coming back, legendary or not they may be, citzens are going to be annoyed when he starts getting angry cause suddenly everyone believes the Emperor to be a god.


I think youre underestimating the primarchs, theyre not idiots. If they see that (almost) the entire Imperium believes the Emperor is now a god, I dont imagine theyd launch an obviously futile crusade against that belief.
Especially if their chapter didnt believe the emperor was a god and explained the changes since hed left


----------



## NiceGuyEddy

Angel of Blood said:


> Do most even know who the Primarchs are? Is it taught to them as they grow up, i doubt it, alot seem woefully ignorant on information on the astartes themselves, nevermind their history


They do, pilgrims visit Guilliman and there are statues of the loyalist primarchs on the planet Horus sees in _False Gods_, at least I think it's _False Gods_ anyway. There are other references but they conveniently escape me.

Yeah I don't really disagree with what your saying, the high lords aren't going to surrender power easily. It's just that if anyone stands a chance of being accepted as mankind's saviour in replacement of the emperor it's a primarch.


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## Angel of Blood

Many pilgrims go to Ultramar yes but im sure theres got to be many many imperial planets who simply don't know much at all about the primarchs. The vision in False Gods though is by no means true, it is a image passed on by the chaos gods after all.


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## Zarick

I'd say Gulliman, he's been poisoned by fulgrim yes but some say his primarch body is gradually healing while in stassis but its a subject for debate.

From what i've read the Lion isnt a pure enough primarch to come back, he's a predator who sides with the strongest if thats the case who knows what side he would pick.

Leman russ was apparently looking for the fabled 'Star Child' no? so he might restore the Emporer to health but i think restoring him would be the bit I.W.I.N. button for the imperium.

Corax perhaps but i doubt it with the shame he bears for almost destroying his legion.

i'd say they should bring in one of the undescovered primarchs, there is two isnt there? but one of them is pretty much dead according to the herasy books since his Tank was cracked before being transported through the warp.


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## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> Many pilgrims go to Ultramar yes but im sure theres got to be many many imperial planets who simply don't know much at all about the primarchs. The vision in False Gods though is by no means true, it is a image passed on by the chaos gods after all.


I regarded it a part truth. The trick with visions of the future is that there is no exact definition of the future, just possibilities, like the one in False Gods, which actually did become true. In fact, some of the names of the primarchs statues that were still up were the ones that remains loyal coincedentally and if my memory serves me right. No one can tell the future not even Tzteench himself (except of course if you count that one Greater Daemon Tzteench threw down the Well of Knowledge, who cam out with two heads telling both lie and truth).


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## Angel of Blood

Guilliman is not healing, its impossible to heal while in stasis, Guilliman is dead the very second that stasis field gets lifted. Hell i think the current marine codex even says he's dead. 

With regards to the unknown primarchs, they both fought in the great crusade, so the one survived his warp travels in his broken pod, if it was even broken at all, as it was yet another vision, not all that happened in it may have been acurate.


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## NiceGuyEddy

Zarick said:


> I'd say Gulliman, he's been poisoned by fulgrim yes but some say his primarch body is gradually healing while in stassis but its a subject for debate.


Why oh why did I mention Guilliman? Shoulda known this would happen....


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## WarMaster Sindr

Well Lion is the the only one known to be alive atm the other Khan, Corax, Vulken, and who is it Russ are unknown.

But Robert Gullimen is dead cept he in stasis field cause of his neck so yeah.

But my question is were are the two unknown i knw that Horus killed one but the other is even a mystery to everyone cept the emperor and then dont forget bou Alpha Legion they could possibly still be loyal.


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## ckcrawford

I think they could do a novel in the future over the lost primarchs. Though, I think it would be from a greater part of a story. And of course, it would depend what route GW wants to take in the course of things. 

The most likely way GW would present primarchs in a novel is very much how they present the Sanguinor; a figure unknown that appears only during the most desperate of times, and still unknown. Making it basically almost rumor and legend. Basically an open ended question as to who or what just saved the day.

Reason? Well, there are many reasons as to why GW would hide the whereabouts of the primarchs. The reason that I don't really like are because of the GW game purposes, which I personally think are stupid. But thats just my opinion. 

Another reason is that the remaining loyal primarchs belong to an Imperium that no longer really exists. This establishment of new power would naturally disturb the balance of power in the Imperium by the Inquisition, Adeptus Terra, and even the Ecclesiarchy.

One of my constructed opinions is that a loyal primarch returning would be one of those "flickering lights" that burns more brightly than the rest. In this case, that could gain the attention of the chaos gods. Which in return, could get the worst of the Daemon Princes including the fallen primarchs against the Imperium. Which right now would be something the Imperium could ill afford. So if indeed the loyal primarchs are playing this game, it is benefitting the Imperium. The last time a Primarch was around he was answered by Fulgrim... which didn't end well.


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## Angel of Blood

WarMaster Sindr said:


> i knw that Horus killed one but the other is even a mystery to everyone cept the emperor.


 
What? where did you read that. Nothing is known about the fates of the unknown primarchs, absoloutely nothing, we just know that for whatever reason they were deleted from all records and the primarchs forbidden to talk about them.


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## Zarick

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Why oh why did I mention Guilliman? Shoulda known this would happen....


Well come on since the Ultramarines are pretty much the face of the Astartes why the hell not  As for Alpharius from what i've read they are fighting the Imperium out of neccesity they are saving the galaxy by destroying the imperium.

Story was the Two Primarchs had a meeting with an order which was trying to save the universe from the years of war to come, so they sided with horus to destroy the emporer and evantually the traitor legions would tear themselfs apart as horus drifted into a deep depression.


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## Angel of Blood

Thing is we don't really know anything about the Alpha Legion and their motives anymore. We knew very little before Legion, but now that's thrown everything up in the air. Alpharius and Omegon could be dead by now, one might be alive, maybe both. Are they still fighting 'for' the emperor by trying to defeat the Imperium or have they since started to follow other objectives. I love the Alpha Legion now more than ever, need another book on them


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## gothik

Angel of Blood said:


> I think you've missed part of the grand irony that is the Horus Heresy and the beliefs in 30k itself. Some marines do think the Emperor is a god, ture Barons corected that not all of them do but some chapters certainly do. Take one Nathaniel Garro aswell, he believed the Emperor was a god and was loyal as they come. Either way like i said thats part of the ironic twist of the heresy, at the very base level it started with the Word Bearers believing the the Emperor to be a god and being rejected and told not too. Now in 40k the vast majority of the Imperium all believe he is a god.


good point but to me the biggest irony is the very fact that the religion of the Imperium is the fact that the lecto divinatus was started by none other then Lorgar before his fall...that the entire imperium is now following a theological belief started by a traitor leigon is the biggest irony of all imho


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## Newt

Hmm I don't think GW will ever bring one of the big guys back in the game... but how they will resolve 6th edition is a whole other matter..

Why so much concern about The High Lords of Terra? The Master of the Custodes is always in their ranks, and he's the true interpreter of the Emperor's will...

Could he not make a difference, between all the bureaucrats?


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## gen.ahab

People who have power tend to cling to it; I don't think the custodius could do much.


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## Khorne's Fist

If a Primarch came back, I don't think the High Lords would have any choice but to rally behind him and elect him President-for-life. They couldn't send him off to some far flung corner of the galaxy, because he's tell them to fuck themselves, as they really wouldn't have the authority to tell him to do anything. Every marine in the Imperium would answer the call of a primarch, so they couldn't try and bully him either. Even the Custodes would be inclined to follow a returned son of the Emperor.

He would be stunned at the stagnation and decay of the Imperium, and nothing could distract him from putting it back to the vision that the Emperor. If the High Lords try to stand in his way they would be crushed mercilessly. This might take a war of some sort, but nothing near the scale of the Heresy, and it wouldn't last too long, as once any soldier, human or marine, discovered that a loyal Primarch is leading the enemy they would switch sides instantly.


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## Gromrir Silverblade

Gulliman would be the one Primarch who could come back and not rip the Imperium apart in civil war, but since he will cop it on coming out of stasis I think it's unlikely he will come back. Who knows if the Alpha Legion have not been converted to chaos all this time fighting the imperium. I think it will be awesome if a loyal primarch came back, hell the imperium could do with a boost.


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## Khorne's Fist

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Gulliman would be the one Primarch who could come back and not rip the Imperium apart in civil war, but since he will cop it on coming out of stasis I think it's unlikely he will come back.


I'm pretty sure Guilliman is dead already. The only reason for the stasis field is to preserve the body as a relic.


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## gally912

I voted "No" because I think it would upheave the status quo to the breaking of the setting.


But if I had to choose a Primarch I wanted to return, I'd want Dorn. As impossible as that may be.


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## Angel of Blood

Khorne's Fist said:


> If a Primarch came back, I don't think the High Lords would have any choice but to rally behind him and elect him President-for-life. They couldn't send him off to some far flung corner of the galaxy, because he's tell them to fuck themselves, as they really wouldn't have the authority to tell him to do anything. Every marine in the Imperium would answer the call of a primarch, so they couldn't try and bully him either. Even the Custodes would be inclined to follow a returned son of the Emperor.
> 
> He would be stunned at the stagnation and decay of the Imperium, and nothing could distract him from putting it back to the vision that the Emperor. If the High Lords try to stand in his way they would be crushed mercilessly. This might take a war of some sort, but nothing near the scale of the Heresy, and it wouldn't last too long, as once any soldier, human or marine, discovered that a loyal Primarch is leading the enemy they would switch sides instantly.


 
I don't believe any of that, not for one moment. Their is no way a Primarch would be elevated to that kind of status as the last time that happened we got the Heresy. And the High Lords would have a choice. The current high lords are obviously not the same ones as the days of the primarchs, and like was said, those who have power tend to cling to it. They would not just bow down and submit to a primarch and they would have plenty of support behind them to back them in this. They wouldn't be crushed mercilessly, it would be a bitter and bloody civil war and wouldn't end well for either party. And i highly doubt the custodes would get themselves involved either.

I've already said previously, every marine wouldn't just automatically follow the primarch, again many would probably side with the high lords. One primarch cannot change the current state the Imperium is in. Its happened over 40,000 years, their is no way in hell one primarch can reverse all of that.


----------



## BlackGuard

Yes, I would like for a Primarch to return.

As for his return, I believe he would look upon the Imperium in disgust, and see that his Father is all but dead. Any of the Primarchs would be filled with a desire to totally destroy the state of affairs that has come to be.

The civil war would be massive.


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## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't believe any of that, not for one moment. Their is no way a Primarch would be elevated to that kind of status as the last time that happened we got the Heresy. And the High Lords would have a choice. The current high lords are obviously not the same ones as the days of the primarchs, and like was said, those who have power tend to cling to it. They would not just bow down and submit to a primarch and they would have plenty of support behind them to back them in this.


I would disagree. One thing you have to look at, is that primarchs have not been seen by the normal man of the Imperium in a very long time. And even then you also have to see the primarchs are the closest embodiments of the emperor. If anything many leaders and peoples of the Imperium would rally under such a figure. When people see space marines, its often described as godlike and in the heresy primarchs have an entire glamor of their own.


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## Angel of Blood

Yes but i think your all missing the point, which is that exactly. Sure alot of marines wouldn't just throw their forces behind the primarch, but alot would, as would alot of imperial guard no doubt which would combined give the Primarch a hell of alot of power under him, enough to say start another civil war similar to Horus Heresy if he became corrupted, go renegade or rebel in some way, which could plausibly happen. That's what the High Lords are going to be afraid/worried about. One being cannot have that much power again, sure some of them would love seeing a primarch back and greet him, love him etc, but they would all realise the implications of having such a mighty being among them again


----------



## Master_Marius

they have to bring back the Lion and the Wolf!!!


----------



## Chompy Bits

Master_Marius said:


> they have to bring back the Lion and the Wolf!!!


What, so that Russ can get knocked out again?


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm pretty sure Guilliman is dead already. The only reason for the stasis field is to preserve the body as a relic.


If you read the Ultramarines novels it mentions that he is not dead as you can still see the cut from the poison blade of Fulgrim.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> If you read the Ultramarines novels it mentions that he is not dead as you can still see the cut from the poison blade of Fulgrim.


Even if he isn't actually deceased he is literally about to die, as in if the suspension field was turned off he'd be dead before his body could slump forwards. I don't understand why the fact you can still see the cut from Fulgrim's blade has anything to do with him being alive or dead.


----------



## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> Even if he isn't actually deceased he is literally about to die, as in if the suspension field was turned off he'd be dead before his body could slump forwards. I don't understand why the fact you can still see the cut from Fulgrim's blade has anything to do with him being alive or dead.


Because....once you are dead your body instantly repairs itself because that is helpful. No one wants to stare at a bloody body. Pfft, silly goose.


----------



## Baron Spikey

gen.ahab said:


> Because....once you are dead your body instantly repairs itself because that is helpful. No one wants to stare at a bloody body. Pfft, silly goose.


Oh shit I'd forgot about that, of course your body wants you to look nice when your dead...seriously what do morticians even do if the body does it all itself?


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

Baron Spikey said:


> Even if he isn't actually deceased he is literally about to die, as in if the suspension field was turned off he'd be dead before his body could slump forwards. I don't understand why the fact you can still see the cut from Fulgrim's blade has anything to do with him being alive or dead.


Bless your heart, as in his body was put into stasis at the moment that the wound was inflicted, thereby not giving the poison time to get through his metabolism. 

I'm pretty sure I said earlier that he would die if the stasis field was turned off. I feel we're slightly getting off topic from my original point which was that Gulliman is the only "surviving" primarch who would not cause a civil war.


----------



## gen.ahab

Your time frame is a bit off. Tbh, what do you think happened? They put him in a stasis field on the battlefield? No. They put him in stasis much later, when it became apparent that they couldn't save him.


----------



## Dutch master 3000

NiceGuyEddy said:


> I reckon if the Lion came back it would probably end badly for the Imperium. I don't think he's one to sit back and follow the man. So I reckon either DA would breakaway or he'd end up being assassinated for trying to assert his authority.


You cant kill the Lion (insert "The metal" theme music here


----------



## Larmour

For one fine the inquisitor lords may not like it but say if the lion was to return he would gain support so rapidly that the dark angels would become a legion again, then most likely the lion would hold the knowledge of the lost technology and the tech priests of mars would probably do everything in there power to protect him to regain their lost tech. After thatthe inquisition would fall and Lion would be declared war master of the imperium, then the would be alerted to lion's presence in the imperium and re amerge and attack the imperium in attempts to kill him so lion will most likely go in hiding again until some of the other primarch's re-amerge because he will have doomed the imperium because there are still plenty of daemon primarchs kicking arround


----------



## Gothic

i would love to vulkan and rogal dorn come back, i think if any of the primarchs come back the main war between chaos and loyalist will be over one side will win and one side will lose.


----------



## gothik

Baron Spikey said:


> Even if he isn't actually deceased he is literally about to die, as in if the suspension field was turned off he'd be dead before his body could slump forwards. I don't understand why the fact you can still see the cut from Fulgrim's blade has anything to do with him being alive or dead.


they say the golden throne is failing so it fails and a thousand billions souls mourn as the universe is thrown into unnavigatorabledarkness, across the void the forces of chaos rub thier hands together in glee and prepare to pick the carcass, and suddenly on the paradise world of Ultramar the news that gulliman was seen walking only to drop dead a few moments later and, after much lamenting the inscription on his tomb shall read......"see i told you that bloody sword was poisoned!"


----------



## Khorothis

Even a single loyalist Primarch returning would make the setting more interesting. All of them returning at once, maybe together? Whoo boy, lemme grab my popcorn. :grin:

I think that the Emperor would undoubtedly react to the return of his sons. Though I can't help but imagine this:
- Hey, dad, long time no see!
- Hey, son, how'ya been?
- Dad, you look shit!
- Oh shut up.

But lets get back on the serious track here. 

So I think that the Emperor would probably demand to see his son personally, partially because he really loved them (even if hes the worst dad in history, he still loved them... well, at least the loyalists), and partially to bring him up to speed on whats going on (in case he didn't know already) and what needs to be done. Of course, there would be a lot of explaining on the Emperor's part but I guess the Primarchs will have to explain why they left and what did they do while they were gone. Another scene I'd love to see:

Russ: I've been in the Eye of Terror and ravaged whole planets, eventually singlehandedly because my loyal, brave sons died by my side.
*Ooo, neat!*
Khan: Well I was chasing some Eldar army I think in the webway when they whooosh! disappeared like the wusses they are and I got lost. After a while some Harlequins decided that its for the best for all sides involved if I got out of there. My bike was dry as a desert too, so I raided some planet for gas and raided my way home.
*Thats a nice one! I bet you'll get a compass and a map for your next birthday...*
Lion: I was in coma the whole damn time.
*Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...*

And just for fun:
Guilliman: I got into a fight with Fulgrim. Got stabbed. Got poisoned. Almost died. But my body healed even in stasis and I'm okay now!
*Goodness.*
Dorn: I got killed pretty bad in a fight. I came back from the dead because I don't give a fuck. I came home, saw this shit... I ain't even mad.
**

After that, who knows? Massive carnage and righteous buttkicking would ensue, thats for sure. :grin:


----------



## Broadsword 1986

I voted yes.

A Primarch returning would cause commotion and mixed feelings throughout the Imperium. I don't think that an all out civil war would ensue (again). It would mostly depend on which Primarch came back to pave the road though. 

Like it was said previously, the Alpha legion is most probably still loyal to the Emperium. The cabal informed the Alpha legion of what was to come. Their Primarch(s) "since they are one soul in two beings" was a primarch after all, so he would not have been a pushover and he would have chosen his own path. He just would not have taken the Cabals word for granted. Besides he (they) would've known that the future is uncertain. With every choice made, the future changes. What if Alpharius/Omegon decided to side with the traitors, but informed the most improbable loyal ally they could think of? This would explain a lot why the XIII legion allowed itself to be enbattled at a completely unimportant planet at the time of the battle of Terra. 
And... while Alpharius/Omegon would try to weaken chaos from within (doing what they did best) Guilliman created the codex astartes and guided the battered and tattered emperium through that difficult period just after the heresy. 

Just a thought, but I would like to know more from the Alpha Legion. I am convinced that they are still fiercely loyal to the Emperor and am certain that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive. Besides I don't think that the currect status quo can keep going on. black crusades, tau advances and hive fleets slowly and almost unstobable whirming their way into the Emperium. The empirium is fighting back, but it can't keep holding up with this kind of pressure. To me it seems that the Emperium is going towards its darkest hour and thus mankinds greatest heroes should come back and lead the astartes to counter these threats.


----------



## Gree

Broadsword 1986 said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> A Primarch returning would cause commotion and mixed feelings throughout the Imperium. I don't think that an all out civil war would ensue (again). It would mostly depend on which Primarch came back to pave the road though.
> 
> Like it was said previously, the Alpha legion is most probably still loyal to the Emperium. The cabal informed the Alpha legion of what was to come. Their Primarch(s) "since they are one soul in two beings" was a primarch after all, so he would not have been a pushover and he would have chosen his own path. He just would not have taken the Cabals word for granted. Besides he (they) would've known that the future is uncertain. With every choice made, the future changes. What if Alpharius/Omegon decided to side with the traitors, but informed the most improbable loyal ally they could think of? This would explain a lot why the XIII legion allowed itself to be enbattled at a completely unimportant planet at the time of the battle of Terra.
> And... while Alpharius/Omegon would try to weaken chaos from within (doing what they did best) Guilliman created the codex astartes and guided the battered and tattered emperium through that difficult period just after the heresy.
> 
> Just a thought, but I would like to know more from the Alpha Legion. I am convinced that they are still fiercely loyal to the Emperor and am certain that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive. Besides I don't think that the currect status quo can keep going on. black crusades, tau advances and hive fleets slowly and almost unstobable whirming their way into the Emperium. The empirium is fighting back, but it can't keep holding up with this kind of pressure. To me it seems that the Emperium is going towards its darkest hour and thus mankinds greatest heroes should come back and lead the astartes to counter these threats.


I myself have a hard time that the entire Alpha Legion, or even a majority are loyal. Hunt for Voldorius contains an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince, a possesed Alpha Legionary, and Alpha Legionaries who summon daemon and make sacrificies to the Dark Gods. They have spent tn thousand years in the service of Chaos. Even if they orignally started out as loyalists, a good number, or even the vast majority would be Chaos worshippers by now.

In fact the whole ''Alpha Legion being loyal thing'' was never straight out confirmed in no uncertain terms. We have implications, yes, however Alpharius and Omegon's actions are still shoruded in mystery. Like with A-D-B in First Heretic, Abnett threw out a theory, but never confirmed it straight out.

But of course I'm not saying that there is no possiblity of them loyal. I myself just doubt it.


----------



## cegorach

I really hope that one primarch returns to the imperium, simply because then i think that would cause the remaining chaos daemon primarchs to take sudden and deadly action against the imperium. 
I think we can all agree that would be great.


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## Chompy Bits

As I don't want BoK telling me to use the search function, I decided to do a little necro on a primarch return thread. So I remembered a bit in _Fulgrim_ which I found quite interesting, but don't know exactly how to interpret it so was wondering what you guys thought. Page 221, during Eldrad's vision:



> He saw the rise of warriors, the treachery of kings, and the great eye opening to release the mighty heroes of legend trapped there to return to their warrior's sides for the final battle.


Now, while his vision is mainly about the heresy, he seems to be seeing mankind's fate in general. Also, at the point of the heresy there weren't any Imperial heroes within the eye (where as now at least Russ & Corax may still be somewhere in the eye), so I'm thinking this part of the vision is in fact detailing some battle yet to come. Anyway, what do you guys think about this?


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## MightisRight

Yes, but they would need to instantly have their heads ripped off and their souls drunk by a C'Tan or Chaos God to retain fluff balance.


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## Kelsik

Broadsword 1986 said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> A Primarch returning would cause commotion and mixed feelings throughout the Imperium. I don't think that an all out civil war would ensue (again). It would mostly depend on which Primarch came back to pave the road though.
> 
> Like it was said previously, the Alpha legion is most probably still loyal to the Emperium. The cabal informed the Alpha legion of what was to come. Their Primarch(s) "since they are one soul in two beings" was a primarch after all, so he would not have been a pushover and he would have chosen his own path. He just would not have taken the Cabals word for granted. Besides he (they) would've known that the future is uncertain. With every choice made, the future changes. What if Alpharius/Omegon decided to side with the traitors, but informed the most improbable loyal ally they could think of? This would explain a lot why the XIII legion allowed itself to be enbattled at a completely unimportant planet at the time of the battle of Terra.
> And... while Alpharius/Omegon would try to weaken chaos from within (doing what they did best) Guilliman created the codex astartes and guided the battered and tattered emperium through that difficult period just after the heresy.
> 
> Just a thought, but I would like to know more from the Alpha Legion. I am convinced that they are still fiercely loyal to the Emperor and am certain that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive. Besides I don't think that the currect status quo can keep going on. black crusades, tau advances and hive fleets slowly and almost unstobable whirming their way into the Emperium. The empirium is fighting back, but it can't keep holding up with this kind of pressure. To me it seems that the Emperium is going towards its darkest hour and thus mankinds greatest heroes should come back and lead the astartes to counter these threats.



Im glad some one brought that up, I believe the alphas were for a long time tripping chaos up from with in. however after ten thousand years i think much of the alpha legion is now fully in the embrace of chaos. Im not sure even thier primarch is still loyal but I still hold out hope.

I would like to see Russ return if only to finish his unfinished buisness with my boy Magnes the Red. Im sure those 2 have much to catch up on.

If a primarch would return would it be so bad for the Imperium? A returned son of the emperor would be a powerful rally point for a demoralized imperium. primarchs are hard to kill so any assasins plot would have to be really really well executed lest they risk the wrath of the legiones astartes.

For the Astartes it would be a time of great joy to be reunited with thier gene sire. They would come from all across the galaxy to see for them selves that well spring of their chapter and former legion lives.


If any primarch were to return, it would have to be to deal with a fallen primarch once and for all.


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## Klaivex

Kelsik said:


> I would like to see Russ return if only to finish his unfinished buisness with my boy Magnes the Red. Im sure those 2 have much to catch up on.


So Russ should return from the EoT so he can finish of Magnus who is in the EoT?:dunno:


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## tabbytomo

personally, i'd love to see a primarch to return. I am happy with the stat quo, but would be an interesting change. I couldn't imagine any primarch taking orders as such, more likely become a high-lord-primarch of terra, rather than a front line role akin to the great crusade. Would be exciting to say the least, because it could opens up a door for some fantastic fluff, some explanations maybe?


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## doofyoofy

I would like the see a Primarch return.
A lot of people say that a Primarch return would cause civil war or that the High Lords would assasinate the Primarch. All of the surviving Primarchs were there when the Codex broke the legions, there is no reason they would assemble their legion abck together. The High Lords wouldnt assasinate him as to be found behind that task would threaten their positions as a Primarch would get a ridiculous amount of support.
Lastly, there would be no reason to be threatened, as there is already precedence Primarchs existing and sharing power with the High Lords during the Heresy and after. 
The Khan and Russ both showed after the scouring that instead of helping to pull the Imperium back together with Dorn and Guillamen, that they would go kickass. Showing they care more about slaying bodies then holding the riens of power.
Also as for the remaking of the IOM as the Emporer really wanted, the Primarch would do this over time. As all of the surviving Primarchs realize that a second civil war would weaken the IOM too much on top of what it already faces.


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## spanner94ezekiel

Khan, Corax or Jonson. The others are too rigid or temperamental to be of use.


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## Words_of_Truth

The Lion would be an interesting introduction, due to his secretive nature who knows what he'd want to do to the Imperium as well as simply doing it and not thinking about what the Highlords think.


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## Diatribe1974

Baron Spikey said:


> No because I hold to the belief that, excepting the Lion, they're all dead- I appreciate them saying they'd return (well okay Corax and the Khan didn't) but I view it as being akin to the return of King Arthur rather than a plausible possibility.


Russ is still alive.


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## MontytheMighty

I made a thread like this and it was a resounding yes


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## BlackGuard

The Primarchs could very well be alive. I don't see why it is so hard to conceive that they would be alive. Yes, they entered the Eye of Terror, but so did the Space Wolves 13th Grand Company to my understanding. They yet live, following their Primarch's original orders.

If they can survive, I have no doubt that Russ could survive within that hell as well. Perhaps he is actually hunting for the Daemon Primarchs of his brothers, maybe hoping to bring them down. 

Should they return, there would no doubt be some kind of internal strife. One Primarch returning would be monumentous, but if war is to be avoided -- all of them must return. The Khan, Corax, The Lion, Russ, Vulkan -- all of them that can, would have to return. At roughly the same time, so as to put the High Lords on such an unbalanced footing that they fall would likely be swift and brutal. 

Or it could very well lead to another Great Heresy. High men, in high places, often do very ignorant things in the pursuit of saving their own power -- imagine if the High Lords accepted Chaos, hoping it would help them survive the return of the demi-gods.


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## Kelsik

Klaivex said:


> So Russ should return from the EoT so he can finish of Magnus who is in the EoT?:dunno:


It does sound funny when you put it like that. However after thinking about it, I have to say, Yes, Yes indeed Russ should not attempt to fight the Crimson King where he is at his strongest. 
Since the loss of Prospero Magnes has no body of flesh ( super engineered flesh). In the Eye, Magnes is in his element, able to channel mind boggling amounts of etherial power that the Wolf King would likly not be able to withstand or overcome. So yes, Russ should only seek decisive battle with Magnes out side of the Eye of Terror.


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## Klaivex

Kelsik said:


> It does sound funny when you put it like that. However after thinking about it, I have to say, Yes, Yes indeed Russ should not attempt to fight the Crimson King where he is at his strongest.
> Since the loss of Prospero Magnes has no body of flesh ( super engineered flesh). In the Eye, Magnes is in his element, able to channel mind boggling amounts of etherial power that the Wolf King would likly not be able to withstand or overcome. So yes, Russ should only seek decisive battle with Magnes out side of the Eye of Terror.


Why would Magnus fight Russ outside of the EoT where he is at his most powerful? Plus if Russ beat him he would just be banished back to the EoT so it would be kind of meaningless.


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## Chaosrider

All of the primarchs that buggered off said "i'll be back at the big battle" in some way. So if Lion woke up for some strange reason the Imperium would be screwed through civil war through all the reasons stated above, or Angron might go "finally someone decent to fight other than these boring ass bloodthirsters" and lead all his beserkers in a lion hunt, thus triggering the big battle for which the others have been waiting. and all 7/8/9 (depending on alpha legion primarchs) chaos primarchs would come out to play. It would be awesome if they did return but the imperium would be munted.


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## Angel of Blood

Theres only 6 confirmed traitor primarchs alive, Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, Perturabo and Lorgar are deamon princes, Fulgrim is in whatever state he's in these days, assumedly still possessed. Alpharius/Omegon might be alive so thats a potential 7-8 Traitor primarchs. But Horus and Night Haunter are dead, so no coming out to play for them.

Unluckily for the Imperium, Sanguinius, Dorn, Manus and Guilliman are all dead. Khan, Russ, Corax and Vulkan could all be dead for all we know, and the Lion is in stasis in the Rock. 

So whilst the traitors could field 6 defintes, the loyalists can only do 1 with the Lion(if the watchers wake him up) 4 are dead, and the other 4 could be aswell. Not looking great for the loyalists.


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## Shattertheirsky

I can see the Khan making an appearance, but in the form of....

'Dark eldar come out of webway, start attacking some guardsmen/marines. Khan drives out after them on his bike along with the remnants of the original marines who were with him. Khan goes all 'Legion-Of-The-Damned' on the DE and then retreats into the webway, the surviving guardsmen like WTF?'


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## Battman

Personally I like the idea of the return of the primarchs just because theya re so kick ass, but then there are the arguments which overall I agree with. I think the primarchs in the warp vulken, russ and corax proably could be still alive and kicking up a hell storm just like good old draigo. One thing that's interesting I think is that russ said he be back at the end times I doubt well ever get there but it would be awsome. Great thred


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## Gromrir Silverblade

Doesn't this thread raise another question as well, whether or not we are bored with the current "grim dark"? Does the 40k fluff need a bit of a kick start since the 13th crusade. Unfortunately 40k has become a bit like friends whereby it sells more if current status quo is maintained. But wouldn't it be brilliant if they brought out another campaign whereby fluff could move on...?


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## Malus Darkblade

Dismissing the grimdark feel would go against all established lore dating back to the 80's.

If what you mean is introduce something like the identities of the lost Primarchs or where the Tyranids really come from, then yes we could use things like that.


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## Angel of Blood

A Primarch could quite easily come back without upsetting the grim dark theme. In fact as I've said before, perhaps even way back in this thread, I can't see the return of a Primarch bringing anything but trouble. None of them would be happy in the slightest(and that's putting it mildly) with how the Imperium has turned out, how it runs and how it treats it's citizens(Vulkan would probably be the most 'upset', to put it mildly, at that last point). The Imperium of the 41st millennium would be utterly unrecognisable to them. 

Also, one of my biggest points I've raised before is the High Lords. In my opinion they would see the Primarchs as a massive threat as much as an asset. They could amass an enormous amount of support, from both the Astartes and regular humans alike and being sons of the God-Emperor would in all likelihood gain them a huge cult following as demi gods. On the Astartes, how many of them would automatically default to the Primarch from that moment on instead of the High Lords? Granted not all of them, but more than enough to give the High Lords a lot to worry about I reckon. 

One of the most plausible courses of action that I think the High Lords would probably take, would be to send/request, the Primarch take charge of a crusade somewhere that would keep them wrapped up and busy for a long time. A Hive Fleet, large Ork Waaagh!, The Maelstorm/The Eye. If they win the crusade, fine, that's one massive threat dealt with, send them on another. If they lose, then they will make them a martyr of the highest order. If they end up fighting it indefinitely, well then they're out the way, yet easy to recall should a greater threat arise, such as a Black Crusade. Though this is all assuming the Primarch would even listen to them.


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## Malus Darkblade

I don't think the HL of Terra would give a shit about maintaining their power. It's not like it's all fun and games. 

I could easily see them relinquish their authority back to the Primarch to let him deal with everything. 

The masses would probably demand such a thing anyways.


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## MEQinc

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think the HL of Terra would give a shit about maintaining their power. It's not like it's all fun and games.
> 
> I could easily see them relinquish their authority back to the Primarch to let him deal with everything.
> 
> The masses would probably demand such a thing anyways.


People in positions of power did not rise to them by being willing to step aside, nor by being unwilling to deal with the challenges of the position. The High Lords are perhaps the most powerful people in the entire Imperium, and many of them have held their seats for an exorbitantly long time. And you expect them to be willing to just fade into the background, because a bunch of ignorant, dirty commoners say so? And that's of course leaving aside the fundamental threat a Primarch poses to several of the institutions that appoint a High Lord, the Ecclesiarchy for example. The Imperial Creed typically holds the Primarchs as saints and always holds the Emperor as a god, but all (as far as I'm aware) of the Primarchs do not hold such beliefs and quite a few would not be shy about saying so. Can you imagine the shit-storm that would create? The potential (depending on who comes back) to have the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navvy merged under the command of the Astartes (which would remove thousands of wealthy and powerful people from their positions of wealth and power) would create even more problems. Long story short, a Primarch returning would not end well for large swathes of the Imperium.


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## Malus Darkblade

The world the HL of Terra find themselves in offers no comparison to your typical warlord. 

I don't see how they would find any kind of joy from their position. 

It isn't a position they fought tooth and nail for. It was given to them by a corpse that refuses to die thousands of years ago when such positions actually offered some semblance of joy.

In 40k, they shiver in their thrones, monitoring the reports from Tech-Adepts down below about the status of the Emperor's failing stasis-machine. Day in and day out they receive word of Chapters being wiped out, new alien menaces threatening frontier worlds and Abaddon's forces tightening their hold on the Cadian gate.

They live in a universe where daemons exist and where countless numbers scratch and claw at a non-physical ward held in place only by the will of the Emperor whose anchor to the material realm is slowly dying with every passing day.

You cannot compare the High Lords of Terra to any other seat of power in mankind's history, in fiction or the real world.


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## piemelke

If a primarch were to return, The lion given his intrinsic abilities, would be a good technocrat ruler of the empirium, and I do not think he would give the HL a fighting chance. Based upon what we have learned from him in the DA HH books he will be patient, biding his time and preparing a strategy, and let's face it, he is good at that. Certainly if he still has the little trinket used in prince of crows, the empirium is his. 
Another aspect is who will stand against him, from all we read seeing a primarch makes people collapse and cry, I can hardly imagine (besides the SW) one chapter not following the Lion, IG, mere humans who will immediately swear loyalty when just smelling them.
The mechanicus, he will probably have heaps of knowledge and lore he can sell them in return for loyalty.
The religious morons will benefit from this (regard it as an apostle coming back to earth, which bisshop would not want this, churches would be filled to the brim), and the Lion knows all this and will use it, 
the HL do not stand a fighting chance, I do not foresee a full scale war, the Lion will have prepared, hey for all we know he is already planning for 100 years.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Angel of Blood said:


> One of the most plausible courses of action that I think the High Lords would probably take, would be to send/request, the Primarch take charge of a crusade somewhere that would keep them wrapped up and busy for a long time. A Hive Fleet, large Ork Waaagh!, The Maelstorm/The Eye. If they win the crusade, fine, that's one massive threat dealt with, send them on another. If they lose, then they will make them a martyr of the highest order. If they end up fighting it indefinitely, well then they're out the way, yet easy to recall should a greater threat arise, such as a Black Crusade. Though this is all assuming the Primarch would even listen to them.


This is one of the main issues with a returning Primarch. Any grab for power would be completely screwed by the entire 40K Imperial power base declaring them a traitor and we're back in a civil war.

Alternatively, we did see the Loyalist Primarchs die off for exactly the reason AoB quotes, even if the High Lords of Terra don't do it themselves. They're the biggest and baddest the Imperium has to offer, therefore they should be at the forefront of defending their father's legacy; as even Chapter Masters do on a regular basis. Well, in the post-Heresy Imperium, each Primarch was slowly bled off or scared off by some horrendous event sooner or later. I don't think it's reasonable, even in 40K, that a Primarch would survive fighting off a Nid Hive Fleet or a Necron Tomb World awakening every time... say they lose only once every 200 years... they're now toast again. I can also imagine all their Traitor brothers making incessant special arrangements for the Loyalist to be corrupted in oh so many ways.


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## Angel of Blood

@Malus. You seriously think they would let a Primarch take command of the Imperium? Look what happened last time one of the Primarchs was made Warmaster of the Imperium.


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## Cowbellicus

Yes, because

1.) The 40k fiction is really starting to get bland and samey. There's just not a lot of material to work with in terms of interesting new ideas. But throw a primarch into the mix and advance the overall plot - whammo.

2.) Horus Heresy fiction is superb. The writing level is higher on all fronts, and it's all because the primarchs are such strong characters.

Bring it on please.


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## BlackGuard

> The world the HL of Terra find themselves in offers no comparison to your typical warlord.
> 
> I don't see how they would find any kind of joy from their position.


Of coarse not, cause nobody loves being co-ruler of a vast, galatic empire, where such things as 'civil rights' are completely mythical. Where you live in the most secure Palace in the galaxy (Emperor's Pad) and send billions to their deaths instead of going there yourself.



> It isn't a position they fought tooth and nail for. It was given to them by a corpse that refuses to die thousands of years ago when such positions actually offered some semblance of joy.


Um ... no? The Emperor has not spoken or communicated with his mortal subjects since not long after he was placed into the Golden Throne. 

They fought tooth and nail for their chair on the High Lords. They likely murdered friends, colleagues, and family to get that chair.



> In 40k, they shiver in their thrones, monitoring the reports from Tech-Adepts down below about the status of the Emperor's failing stasis-machine. Day in and day out they receive word of Chapters being wiped out, new alien menaces threatening frontier worlds and Abaddon's forces tightening their hold on the Cadian gate.
> 
> They live in a universe where daemons exist and where countless numbers scratch and claw at a non-physical ward held in place only by the will of the Emperor whose anchor to the material realm is slowly dying with every passing day.
> 
> You cannot compare the High Lords of Terra to any other seat of power in mankind's history, in fiction or the real world.


You need to look at it from their perspective. Yes all of this is happening -- and its been happening for 10,000 years to one degree or another. Abaddon's attacked Cadia before, and the reports aren't horrid (they have the planet, but the Navy rules the skies). Chapters are not wiped out on a daily basis, not sure where you got that from. Alien menaces have been besetting the Imperium since the first time humanity took claim of the stars back before the Age of Strife. 

I believe that the High Lords sit upon their ornate thrones, casting their superior glances about and each time they hear of doom and gloom they repeat this mantra: "The Imperium is 10,000 years old ... this too shall pass."


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## piemelke

To state the empirium is not a dire situation is rather strange, time of ending ?
astral knights, not daily but still,
if the Primarch were to be the Lion, he will indeed not ge given command over the empirium, he will take it


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## MEQinc

piemelke said:


> To state the empirium is not a dire situation is rather strange, time of ending ?


The Imperium is in rather dire straits, but not all of it is threatened and not all of it is failing. The High Lords have the view-point most likely to enable them to see the strength and endurance of the Imperium, and they themselves are in very little danger.

Further, anyone who would be put off by the daily struggle that is the continued existence of mankind would never have risen high enough to become a High Lord and would never have fought so hard to maintain their position.



> if the Primarch were to be the Lion, he will indeed not ge given command over the empirium, he will take it


And would die the moment he tried. All it will take is the Ecclesiarchy declaring him to be a false messiah and he will burn. A power grab would be the worst thing a Primarch could do upon his return as it would immediately set him up as the enemy of the High Lords, and that is not a war he can win.


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## piemelke

MEQinc said:


> And would die the moment he tried. All it will take is the Ecclesiarchy declaring him to be a false messiah and he will burn. A power grab would be the worst thing a Primarch could do upon his return as it would immediately set him up as the enemy of the High Lords, and that is not a war he can win.


I do not want to get into a opinion versus opinion situation, but I feel that is a bit short, I agree they might want to try but I think they will fail (see my previous ranting in this tread). This is a primarch, who knows how to plan and understands the virtue of patience, he will be prepared for this, they are mere humans versus a Primarch who has no equal in terms of strategy and cunning (I know you know your fluff, so examples are not required).

Regarding the first point, I would say either the HL understand that the empirium is in a pickle or they are nog really qualified for their job, that the real rulers of the empirium (being the HL or other lobbying parties) are not impressed by this, I agree, the point was that the empirium is screwed big time.


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## HonorableMan

Alright, so say one of the primarchs comes back. It's not unreasonable to say that he'd go and find what's left of their Legion, and it's not unreasonable to say that they'd follow him. But what will everyone else see? Everyone who meets him, sure, they'll know he's the real thing... but everyone else? No, they'll say "He's an impostor!" and they'll see some person claiming to be a primarch, one of the Emperor's sons. And what is that? That's HERESY. We'd see the believers slaughtering the unbelievers and vice-versa, and then the galaxy would erupt in war (more war, at least). The Inquisition would be naturally skeptical, and, though some would join, many would condemn this primarch and go after him. The High Lords would hear that there's somebody pretending to be a primarch and controlling a whole Chapter of Astartes (never mind the successors), and what would they do? Call a crusade- got to stamp out the renegades, of course. It wouldn't go well for either the primarch or the Imperium.

Now, as to who would come back... the Lion? If he did, the Dark Angels would split apart, at least the Inner Circle.They don't trust each other or him, and as Boreas said, there are layers upon layers of secrets within the Chapter. With the Lion back, it would expose a lot of the Dark Angels' dirty past... and that would be very, very bad. Also the most likely to come back 

The Khan? I know almost nothing about him. Corax and Vulkan, the same. Sorry XD

Russ? Russ would give the Imperium problems. The Space Wolves would follow him fanatically, and even if everyone thought he was legit, he'd be a danger. They'd have to keep him on a leash, so to speak.

Guilliman would possibly be the most dangerous primarch to come back. Before the Heresy, Ultramar was a totally autonomous part of the Imperium, an "empire within an empire". He'd want to see it that way again, and even if everyone believed he was legit... nobody would stand for that. They would see it as an attempt to secede, and it would be met with great force. All-out war would ensue, as the successor Chapters returned to the Ultramarine fold... but it would be a horrible meat-grinder war, mostly Astartes against Astartes, like the Badab War. Good thing Guilliman's dead soon as the stasis field goes down, eh?


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## piemelke

If the Lion were to wake up, he would not just come out of his room and say hey hey I am back give me empirium, he is a master strategist and cunning, also remember his childhood is the forrests of Caliban, he knows how to bide his time in the shadow.
He will prepare and gradually reclaim the rule over the empirium.
These guys took over planets when they were mere infants,
I absolutely do not undersantd why you think the DA would split up, he is not Arkio 2? Based upon all we have read about Primarchs just laying your eyes upon them makes you cry, you will know/belive him to be a primarch.
I would say the Lion would first mingle in his own chapter and from there on gradually increase his influence until it is too later for any Inquisitor to do something about it,
he will promise lore to the mechanicus, trust on old alliances between chapters,, besided this he probably still has a lot of lore and secrets stashed he can and will use in his campaign to partially restore the empirium in his glory.
he is a loyal primarch is what we learned during his battle with Conrad
As for any other primarch (Robute is almost certainly not coming back), I do not think they have the ambition to rule the empirium, Vulkan would want to go back to the sals and make fancy tools and protect mankind and all, Corax, I do not know, but he never seemed a real ruler to me, Russ, would probably drink a few beers, cuddle an icebear and go back to wherever he came from,


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## Malus Darkblade

Don't bother Pie. Everyone is sticking to this one theory as thought CotE himself endorsed it. To me, the situation of the High Lords has no parallel in the real world or its history.

If a Primarch were to return, I am quite certain every Astartes perhaps even the Red Hunters themselves would join his side.


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## Angel of Blood

Malus Darkblade said:


> Don't bother Pie. Everyone is sticking to this one theory as thought CotE himself endorsed it.


Hmm, quite a broad sweeping generalisation there from you, one that I quite heavily disagree on.


I'm still rather shocked that all of you who think the Primarch would be able to, be allowed to or even want to take over the Imperium. As I've said before, just look at what happened last time a Primarch had control of the Imperiums forces. The Primarchs are beyond smart, they're going to remember that, after all they all eventually agreed to breaking up the Legions for that very reasons. The High Lords are certainly going to remember and be rightly worried and concerned about it, even if up against a Primarch and it came to blows, they would still be able to amass an enormous amount of support and power. I would wager even some of the Astartes chapters would cite the problem with giving a Primarch full control, quite a few chapters are pragmatic and smart enough to see that.

Despite how smart a Primarch is, there is not a chance that he could take control of the Imperium without the High Lords backing, which he just won't get. He could try and do it behind the scenes as much as he liked, but the Imperium is simply too vast and complex for that to be achievable.


Oh and for the record. It's 'Imperium', not 'Emperium'.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

piemelke said:


> If the Lion were to wake up, he would not just come out of his room and say hey hey I am back give me empirium, he is a master strategist and cunning, also remember his childhood is the forrests of Caliban, he knows how to bide his time in the shadow.
> He will prepare and gradually reclaim the rule over the empirium.


No one is doubting the Lion's (or indeed any Primarch's) abilities. However, I fail to see how a Primarch would gain complete control over the Imperium without taking a direct approach.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Don't bother Pie. Everyone is sticking to this one theory as thought CotE himself endorsed it. To me, the situation of the High Lords has no parallel in the real world or its history.
> 
> If a Primarch were to return, I am quite certain every Astartes perhaps even the Red Hunters themselves would join his side.


If you want my opinion, see here.

Not many situations have exact parallels in history, but logic can still be applied to them.


----------



## Lost&Damned

could a parallel be drawn between the fact the High lords of terra and the various branches of the inquisition would reject a loyalist Primarch and that (perhaps) the traitor primarchs would be rejected by the traitor marines?
or perhaps because they are all marines that know and have fought with/against a primarch be more ready to aid him? 
would Abaddon for instance fight against say Lorgar if the latter decided to try and take over the crusade?
(the only 2 primarchs that could really claim to lead the crusade is either Peturabo or Lorgar.)


----------



## piemelke

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No one is doubting the Lion's (or indeed any Primarch's) abilities. However, I fail to see how a Primarch would gain complete control over the Imperium without taking a direct approach.
> .


he would take his time, step by step, 
if I recall correctly also the emperor took his time, I thought he was supposed to be around quite a long time before he claimed stewardship over mankind ? (I am not saying the Lion will follow in the footsteps of the imperor  )


----------



## MEQinc

piemelke said:


> I would say the Lion would first mingle in his own chapter and from there on gradually increase his influence until it is too later for any Inquisitor to do something about it,


How does a ten-foot tall demigod mingle with anyone without drawing the attention of the organization created to be suspicious of everyone and everything?



> he will promise lore to the mechanicus,


What lore does the Lion have that the Mechanicus don't? Being smart doesn't mean you just randomly know stuff others don't.



> trust on old alliances between chapters,,


The Dark Angels were never the most popular or trusting of Legions, they may not have had many alliances to begin with. Add to that 2000 years of history the Lion has not been apart of, and it's hard to imagine that the Lion's pull (2000 years out of date) would be greater than the High Lords (current and with 2000 more years to build alliances).



> he is a loyal primarch is what we learned during his battle with Conrad


1) Konrad.
2) Doesn't matter if he is loyal, all that matters is whether people think he's loyal. His reputation on this front is hardly stellar already, when his emergence puts him in conflict with the High Lords then it will be tarnished even further.



> I do not think they have the ambition to rule the empirium,


Which is actually a good thing. Such a Primarch might actually be able to re-emerge into the Imperium in a minor role, under the authority and supervision of the High Lords and the Inquisition. Though even then, I have a hard time picturing the Primarchs willingly bowing to lesser men. There's a reason most of them voluntarily disappeared, and I think that's it.



Lost&Damned said:


> would Abaddon for instance fight against say Lorgar if the latter decided to try and take over the crusade?


I think he would, for a couple reasons. One, Abaddon is the big boss and he wants to stay that way. Two, the traitor Legion's have lost a lot of the respect they once had for the Primarchs. There was a time when the Primarchs were gods to them, but they saw those gods fall and fail and that's diminished their opinion of them. The Primarchs are still gods to some, but no longer is there will beyond question as it once was.



piemelke said:


> he would take his time, step by step,
> if I recall correctly also the emperor took his time,


I'm sorry, did you just use the Great Golden God Emperor as an example of subtly? The Emperor took his time behind the scenes but when he decided to take control he did so in a very, very direct manner.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

piemelke said:


> he would take his time, step by step,
> if I recall correctly also the emperor took his time, I thought he was supposed to be around quite a long time before he claimed stewardship over mankind ? (I am not saying the Lion will follow in the footsteps of the imperor  )


As _MEQ_ said, whilst the Emperor's plans may have been a long time in the making, the Unification Wars and the subsequent Great Crusade were obviously both part of a very direct approach. There is no feasible way the Lion could claim lordship over the Imperium without directly confronting the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition. A fight he would likely lose considering those three organisations maintain near-total influence over the human race. 



Lost&Damned said:


> would Abaddon for instance fight against say Lorgar if the latter decided to try and take over the crusade?
> (the only 2 primarchs that could really claim to lead the crusade is either Peturabo or Lorgar.)


A Primarch leading a prolonged Black Crusade would be highly problematic. Being daemons, they need to maintain direct links to the warp in order to sustain themselves.


----------



## piemelke

MEQinc said:


> How does a ten-foot tall demigod mingle with anyone without drawing the attention of the organization created to be suspicious of everyone and everything?


The point was/is that for the first years he does not have to show in public he can just stay nicely in the rock planning everything, eventually of course culminating in an direct confrontation after years of preparation.




MEQinc said:


> What lore does the Lion have that the Mechanicus don't? Being smart doesn't mean you just randomly know stuff others don't.


This is of course wild speculation,
-Primarchs have an intelligence which we cannot comprehense, they are probably even smarter than Sheldon with an even better memory, i think that either directly or indirectly the Primarchs have been exposed to knowledge that no longer exist.
-He might know for example more about the little tool he used in prince of crows to make warp jumps, 
- he might know hiding places of known and unknown tech, which the Mechanicus likes.




MEQinc said:


> The Dark Angels were never the most popular or trusting of Legions, they may not have had many alliances to begin with. Add to that 2000 years of history the Lion has not been apart of, and it's hard to imagine that the Lion's pull (2000 years out of date) would be greater than the High Lords (current and with 2000 more years to build alliances).


If the SW and DA are still pissed at each other after 10 k year for the Lion sucker punching Russ, I think it might also be considered reasonable that there are a lot of chapters who remember the DA saving their arses.
Furthermore I am not convinced that most chapters and IG would follow the lords instead of the Lion it might just stirr something inside, see something of their own primarch in the Lion, get inspired. But again, pure speculation 




MEQinc said:


> 1) Konrad.


Thanks


MEQinc said:


> 2) Doesn't matter if he is loyal, all that matters is whether people think he's loyal. His reputation on this front is hardly stellar already, when his emergence puts him in conflict with the High Lords then it will be tarnished even further.
> 
> Which is actually a good thing. Such a Primarch might actually be able to re-emerge into the Imperium in a minor role, under the authority and supervision of the High Lords and the Inquisition. Though even then, I have a hard time picturing the Primarchs willingly bowing to lesser men. There's a reason most of them voluntarily disappeared, and I think that's it.


The Lion would indeed not bow for lesser man, being the ambitious person he is, I just have a hard time feeling that mere men whilst confronted with the uther auro of a primarch would still follow mere men and not the glorious being a primarch is.


MEQinc said:


> I'm sorry, did you just use the Great Golden God Emperor as an example of subtly? The Emperor took his time behind the scenes but when he decided to take control he did so in a very, very direct manner.


Indeed I would say that is about the same as the Lion would do, take his time, prepare and then strike as a predator lurking in the shadows in the forrests of Caliban


----------



## MontytheMighty

Guilliman returns after they use the Heart of Iron (see _Angel Exterminatus_) to heal him :grin:


----------



## Deadeye776

People want the Primarchs to come back because it's a nerd fantasy for all of us. In truth, the Primarchs returning would spell zero hour for either faction:loyalist or traitor. Think about it like this. What's one thing that an army needs when going into combat? Unification.There needs to be a clear chain of command and one faction in charge. You bring back the sons of the Emperor for the loyalist and all of a sudden in the middle of the most dangerous Black Crusade you'll have loyalties being questioned about who should be giving the orders. I'm pretty sure the traitor Primarchs have accepted Abbaddon's role as the boss of their legions. Mostly all of the traitors could come back and lead their legions, but it would only weaken them. This needs to be handled by Astartes, the time of the Primarchs has come and gone.


----------



## MEQinc

piemelke said:


> -Primarchs have an intelligence which we cannot comprehense, they are probably even smarter than Sheldon with an even better memory, i think that either directly or indirectly the Primarchs have been exposed to knowledge that no longer exist.


Like I said, being smart doesn't mean you just spontaneously know things and having a great memory doesn't help 'expose' you to knowledge.



> -He might know for example more about the little tool he used in prince of crows to make warp jumps,


Isn't that thing a daemon, or daemon-tech? Doesn't sound like the kind of thing you want to introduce to a Mechanicus that is already suffering ideological difficulties. 



> If the SW and DA are still pissed at each other after 10 k year for the Lion sucker punching Russ, I think it might also be considered reasonable that there are a lot of chapters who remember the DA saving their arses.


But who's asses have the DA saved? Their beef with the SW isn't just ancient history either, it's a continually re-affirming thing. 



> I just have a hard time feeling that mere men whilst confronted with the uther auro of a primarch would still follow mere men and not the glorious being a primarch is.


But the Lion isn't going to be able to go around and introduce himself personally to everyone fighting him. Everyone knows and believes the words of the High Lords, if they say this 'Lion' is a pretender and a heretic then most people are going to believe them without question.



> Indeed I would say that is about the same as the Lion would do, take his time, prepare and then strike as a predator lurking in the shadows in the forrests of Caliban


Most of the Emperor's fluff suggests that his goal was to run/aid mankind from behind the scenes and that he only stepped into the leadership position when it became absolutely necessary. In others words, he didn't bide his time waiting to strike, he tried the shadows thing and then he went "fuck it, time to take charge" and did so in incredibly obvious fashion.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

MEQinc said:


> Most of the Emperor's fluff suggests that his goal was to run/aid mankind from behind the scenes and that he only stepped into the leadership position when it became absolutely necessary. In others words, he didn't bide his time waiting to strike, he tried the shadows thing and then he went "fuck it, time to take charge" and did so in incredibly obvious fashion.


There's also a glaringly obvious problem with drawing comparisons with the Emperor's approach. Namely (at least initially) humanity only existed on a single world whilst the Emperor was trying the subtle approach. What _Pie_ thinks the Lion could achieve by being subtle and running around the Forests of Caliban (which by-the-way arn't there anymore, Caliban is barely more than an asteroid these days) in an attempt to gain significant influence in a galactic empire of more than a million worlds is beyond me.

Any mustering of military power would be challenged. Any spreading of doctrine other than that which conforms with the teachings of the Imperial Cult would be challenged. Any attempts to usurp the High Lord's authority would be challenged. As far as I am concerned, at best, the Lion could hope for victory in a civil war. Which, of course, would likely prove one-step-too-far given the ongoing situation as of the Time of Ending: 13th Black Crusade, the Great Awakening, aftermath of the Night of a Thousand Rebellions and the loss of contact with most of Segmentum Pacificus, failing of the Golden Throne and Astronomican, the Crusade of the Red Corsairs, etc.


----------



## piemelke

MEQinc said:


> Like I said, being smart doesn't mean you just spontaneously know things and having a great memory doesn't help 'expose' you to knowledge.


, 
I agree, he would not be a walking STC, and it would very much depend on his natural affiliation to tech of which I have no fluff knowledge, this being said, his utter brilliance might be of tremendous worth, an example, Corax was able to perform brilliant genetic development in deliverance lost outperforming any biologis magos,
Primarchs are just really really good at whatever they do





MEQinc said:


> Isn't that thing a daemon, or daemon-tech? Doesn't sound like the kind of thing you want to introduce to a Mechanicus that is already suffering ideological difficulties.


, I do not know to be honest, this being said it did not stop the loyalist Lion from using it, besides I am not convinced all magos are that ideologic off the record.





MEQinc said:


> But who's asses have the DA saved? Their beef with the SW isn't just ancient history either, it's a continually re-affirming thing.


I have not track record of which legion helped which legion more during the crusade, but I cannot imagine that nearly every legion helped about any other legion several times forging a bond on which the DA can build.
I am not saying every chapter will immediately follow the Lion, but in the 40 universe in my head I can see a fair amount of romantic chapter masters following the Lion.



MEQinc said:


> But the Lion isn't going to be able to go around and introduce himself personally to everyone fighting him. Everyone knows and believes the words of the High Lords, if they say this 'Lion' is a pretender and a heretic then most people are going to believe them without question.


That might indeed happen, on the other hand one might also get a counter religious movement driven by people who have actually seen him, futhermore having seen the Lion is not a reason to follow him, one just needs one to say that he is back and strike fear or hope in your heart,




MEQinc said:


> Most of the Emperor's fluff suggests that his goal was to run/aid mankind from behind the scenes and that he only stepped into the leadership position when it became absolutely necessary. In others words, he didn't bide his time waiting to strike, he tried the shadows thing and then he went "fuck it, time to take charge" and did so in incredibly obvious fashion.


and it worked, did it not ?


----------



## Garrak

Haven't read all the pages so sorry if this was said before but:

What if the Primarch who comes back (whichever of them it is), sees the mess the Imperium has become and the clusterfuck over at the Eye and other places and decides to help the High Lords without challenging the general idiocy going around the place. Basically he decides to secure the borders first and fix the Imperium at a later date (I'm sure a Primarch could see the Long View). That would be quite a boost to Imperial forces.

EDIT: Not saying it would be an auto-win or anything like that.


----------



## MEQinc

piemelke said:


> his utter brilliance might be of tremendous worth, an example, Corax was able to perform brilliant genetic development in deliverance lost outperforming any biologis magos,


Okay, fair enough. However while he is doing this, he is not leading the armies of the Imperium or his rebellion. Besides which, I'm not sure the the uber-nerds that run the Mechanicus would believe him if he claimed to be smarter than them (since that's all he can really offer in an alliance).




> besides I am not convinced all magos are that ideologic off the record.


That was actually my point. The Mechanicus already suffered a major schism as a result of warp-tech and innovation (what you are suggesting the Lion return to them) and that never got completely sorted out, plus they are currently in the midst of a another, more hidden, schism. Throwing something as explosive as an auto-teleporting daemon sphere into the mix sounds incredibly risky.



> I have not track record of which legion helped which legion more during the crusade, but I cannot imagine that nearly every legion helped about any other legion several times forging a bond on which the DA can build.


Certainly, however there's a couple of important things to think about here. One, the Dark Angels have a long history of being secretive, something that does not bode well for forming strong bonds. Two, the Dark Angels have spent the last 2000 years burning whatever bridges they might have created in pursuit of the Fallen, they are already viewed as borderline heretics by some in the Inquisition.



> That might indeed happen, on the other hand one might also get a counter religious movement driven by people who have actually seen him,


Because the Imperium has certainly never dealt with counter religious movements based upon a figure claiming divine patronage (that's sarcasm by the way).



> futhermore having seen the Lion is not a reason to follow him, one just needs one to say that he is back and strike fear or hope in your heart,


You cited his extreme charisma as a reason why people would follow him over the High Lords, he needs to actually be in their presence to use his charisma. All the High Lords have to do is call him a Liar, a False Messiah and a Heretic and no right thinking Imperial citizen will believe his followers.



> and it worked, did it not ?


Huh? Yes, the Emperor's play for direct control worked. But as CotE noted (and I would hope would be painfully obvious) the Emperor's situation is not analogous to the Lion's. Besides, you were saying he could play subtle and used the Emperor as an example but you have now admitted that the Emperor did not play subtle so I really have no idea where you're going with this.



Garrak said:


> What if the Primarch who comes back (whichever of them it is), sees the mess the Imperium has become and the clusterfuck over at the Eye and other places and decides to help the High Lords without challenging the general idiocy going around the place.


That could happen. The main problem is the ego's (and in the case of the High Lords, the paranoia) involved. From the Primarch's perspective, would they really be willing to obey the commands of lesser men, men who have clearly proven themselves unable to run the Imperium 'properly'? From the High Lords perspectives, the mere existence of a Primarch is a threat to their control, can they trust his word and motives and does it even matter?


----------



## jd579

I havent read through this whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the 2 missing Primarchs at all?


----------



## DarthMarko

I just want to erase DA and SW beef with this (article WD 233)


"In Lemora, the Chapters were assaulted by a fleet of pirates, reavers who had used the outbreak of the Heresy to pillage and loot, just as had happened before the Emperor had established his peace. In the battle that followed, many ships were lost before the pirates were overcome. After defeating the corsair leader, Ghoran the Navigator, in single combat, Russ spared the man's life, then forced him to swear loyalty to the Emperor. Ghoran did so and afterwards he and his men fought bravely against the heretics. Ghoran's grandson was later to repay the his forbear's debt most honourably. On the Shield Worlds Russ and Jonson defeated the Tyrant Mashashi and his army of ten million blood drinking men. From him they learned of the great assault that was planned on Earth. Mashashi was a sorcerer and a seer and even as he died, blood bubbling from his lips, his ribcage ruined by a sweep of Russ's axe, he sneered at his victorious foes and told them all their efforts would be in vain. The Emperor would die, slain by Warmaster Horus.

Looking into Mashashi's great viewing crystal. the two Primarchs saw a terrible scene. In a place of utter Chaos, the Emperor stood alone against the hideously changed Warmaster. Their brother Sanguinius already lay dead at the great evil one's feet. Russ and Jonson were deeply disturbed by Mashashi's prophecy. Both realised that it might be a trap set by the Dark Powers but both feared the worst, for the crystal of seeing was an ancient artifact of great power and was said to infallibly reveal the hidden secrets of the universe. The two Primarchs debated the course of action they should take. Within the crystal they saw the great fleets of the heretics voyaging towards Earth. The saw five entire Chapters of corrupted Space Marines, depraved spawn of Chaos and evens Daemons descend towards the Imperium's heart. They decided that they much reach Earth, whatever the risk, and take part in this battle even if it was their last. They decided to use the crystal to guide them on the last, long warp voyage. 

Gathering their men and ships the Primarchs led them into the warp. It was to be the longest single journey ever attempted at that time and it appeared doomed from the very start. Within the vast seas of warp space they were assaulted by Daemons who tried to prevent them reaching Terra. Many brave Space Marines and proud ships were lost. Great storms, sent by the Chaos powers themselves, swept them off course and drive them to the many shadowy corners of the universe unseen by men before of since. Brave men went mad, or starved or died in hideous plagues, but still the ships drove on, ploughing through that terrible, secret sea. In the end, with Russ himself at the helm of the Winter Wolf, his navigator driven insane from the horros he had witnessed on the long journey, the fleet arrived too late.

Time flows strangely in warp space, and though it seemed to the ships'crew that they had travelled only for weeks, long and hard weeks though they may have been, in the true universe of matter many months had passed. The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels arrived on Earth to find the ultimate tragedy come to pass. The Ruins of Earth. 

The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels dropped into the fighting around the ruins of the Emperor's Palace. Joining forces with the remnants of the White Scars and the Blood Angels they swiftly drove the forces of Chaos from the rubble. Howling his warcry, Russ battled his way into his father's throne-room, slaying every enemy that came within range of his bolter of within reach of his axe. By his side were his wolves, guarding his back, howling warnings of hidden enemies and lamentations for fallen brothers. Through the shadowy halls Russ battled and one by one his bodyguards fell away, slain by their fearsome foes. Russ feared not. THere were monsters in the most sacred hall in the Universe and Russ vowed he would slay every one of them if need be.

Two-headed mutants fell to his blade. Great formless spawn erupted and these he flamed. Daemons stalked the halls, howling in terror, for the Emperor had slain Horus and in turn taken a mortal wound. Russ showed no foe mercy. Hatred was in his heart and death was in his hand.

Russ came at last to the audience chamber. Fallen stone angels lay on the marble floor. The bodies of dead men and monsters were strewn everywhere. Over everything lay an eerie quiet and even the great wolves fell silent. Russ called aloud for the Emperor and his cry echoed, answerless, round the great chamber. He stood alone, at the centre of the world, and wept. He knelt before the Emperor's empty throne and prayed for guidance. In the distance, brazen horns sounded their victorious note. Word of the death of Horus and the arrival of Russ and Jonson had spread and the forces of Chaos fled in full retreat. The dark will that had bound them was gone. For the first time Russ felt no joy in victory and saw no glory in his deeds. In the empty hall, all seemed meaningless and dark, and despair threatened to overtake him.

The air shimmered and Rogal Dorn, stern Primarch of the Imperial Fists appeared. In his arms he carried the broken body of the Emperor. Behind him his men reverently carried the corpse of the eagle-winged Sanguinius. He would fly no more. Russ looked wearily at Dorn. Silently Dorn shook his head. Both men knew that it was over. Horus's treachery had left the Imperium in ruins. The band of brothers was sundered forever. The dream that they had fought for was dead. This was no victory. Russ let out a great howl of grief and rage, and turned and stalked from the Hall.

Jonson found him under the Monument to the Victory at Durath. He too had taken the Emperor's loss most grievously. He too was maddened with pain and heartbreak and despair. In that darkest hour, bitter words were spoken. Jonson accused Russ of losing Earth. If they had not paused at Kalida Secundus they might have arrived in time. Jonson raged, Russ stared back mutely, then told the Dark Angels Primarch to go away. He had no thirst for battle. He lay down to sleep under the fallen statue to meaningless victory.

As he slept, he dreamed. As he dreamed the Emperor came to him. Russ was filled with wonder. The Emperor spoke, telling him that now was the time of testing. Now it was up to him and his true brothers to hold the Imperium together lest all that they had accomplished vanish. He told him that the matter between him and Jonson must be settled now and forever. When Russ woke Jonson stood over him, armoured and armed for a duel. Russ rose to his feet. He saw the folly of what was about to happen. The realm of Mankind was going to fall into anarchy, chaos and darkness, and those who could prevent it were fighting among themselves. He looked at Jonson and shook his head. Filled with rage Jonson insisted he fight. Russ simply exposed his chest, offering his heart to Jonson's blade. Jonson struck, but at the last second perceived his madness. As the blade pierced Russ's primary heart, Jonson turned his stroke aside, deflecting the blade from bone, and missing the second heart. The duel was settled. Honour was satisfied at last.

When Russ awoke he found Dorn and Jonson standing over his bed. Jonson bowed his head and begged forgiveness. Russ gave it. Dorn told the Lord of Fenris of the construction of the Golden Throne by the Adeptus Mechanicus, that would preserve some spark of the Emperor's life until perhaps a cure could be found. The three of them swore a great oath never to do battle against each other again. For the universe had grown dark and Daemons were still at large and the true Space Marine were the last bulwark of mankind against ultimate destruction. They strode forth to re-unite the shattered Imperium under the Emperor's banner. THey drove the forces of Chaos back to the Eye of Terror. They fought many battle, for there was a galaxy to conquer. They banded together with the remaining loyal Primarchs and re-established order. Thus was the Imperium preserved and the Law maintained in the Universe. But the Emperor was lost and the Golden Age was over forever."


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Pretty sure most of that has been retconned but a good read nonetheless.


----------



## piemelke

MEQinc said:


> Okay, fair enough. However while he is doing this, he is not leading the armies of the Imperium or his rebellion.


ok


MEQinc said:


> Besides which, I'm not sure the the uber-nerds that run the Mechanicus would believe him if he claimed to be smarter than them (since that's all he can really offer in an alliance).


he will have to deliver, and him being a primarch he will 




MEQinc said:


> That was actually my point. The Mechanicus already suffered a major schism as a result of warp-tech and innovation (what you are suggesting the Lion return to them) and that never got completely sorted out, plus they are currently in the midst of a another, more hidden, schism. Throwing something as explosive as an auto-teleporting daemon sphere into the mix sounds incredibly risky.


If they could get their hands on tech that allow for large synchronised warp jumps, they will bite, to be completely honest with you I did know it was daemon tech, I would say the DA would also stay away from this. 




MEQinc said:


> Certainly, however there's a couple of important things to think about here. One, the Dark Angels have a long history of being secretive, something that does not bode well for forming strong bonds. Two, the Dark Angels have spent the last 2000 years burning whatever bridges they might have created in pursuit of the Fallen, they are already viewed as borderline heretics by some in the Inquisition.


I was under the impression they had a rather zealous reputation, I have not come accross references (I do not have a codex) where was stated that the ][ has any clue regarding the Luther stuff. Besides Ragnar (in doubtable fluff) 
I also do not think that every chapter will blindly follow the lion, but a lot of chapters do have a frustration against the empirium and its ruling, proof of this being the renegade chapters and so forth, i speculate that the return of a primarch a glorious being of which they heard nothing but romantic tales of glory and conquest, a brother of their father, a sun of the emperor returning, will ignite a fire in their souls, they will of course require proof, but since he is genuine, he will deliver (I would like to refer to the Arkio story, but I do not regard this as serious fluff),



MEQinc said:


> You cited his extreme charisma as a reason why people would follow him over the High Lords, he needs to actually be in their presence to use his charisma.


how many people have actually seen the emperor ?
maybe a dangerous projection but still, how many people have actually seen Jezus


MEQinc said:


> All the High Lords have to do is call him a Liar, a False Messiah and a Heretic and no right thinking Imperial citizen will believe his followers.


I do not follow this reasoning, by the time they actually understand what they are up against it will be too latel, these are primarchs, who took over planets as mere infants.



MEQinc said:


> Huh? Yes, the Emperor's play for direct control worked. But as CotE noted (and I would hope would be painfully obvious) the Emperor's situation is not analogous to the Lion's. Besides, you were saying he could play subtle and used the Emperor as an example but you have now admitted that the Emperor did not play subtle so I really have no idea where you're going with this.


the reasoning is that in the beginning (I do not know how long) he would indeed play subtle, bide his time stay in shadows bla bla bla , but when finally all the pieces are in place he would indeed go for the full frontal direct approach which indeed is not subtle anymore, that the Lion is not the emperor is indeed clear, that the Lion is not a mere human looney claiming the throne over the imperium is also clear, to me


----------



## ckcrawford

Wow old thread! I have changed my opinion some from last time.

Though I do agree a Primarch coming back into the politics of the Imperium would be devastating, (because no matter how you view it, a Primarch would enter the politics of the Imperium) I think it is possible for the Imperium to enter a reformation without destroying itself. I would say that it is still very dangerous for the Imperium to go into a Civil War. A Civil War between the Primarch and the High Lords and probably the inquisition would give many people in the Imperium the chance to elevate themselves from their current and probable shitty position. 

The only problem with any reformation in the Imperium is the danger that it could create with all the other threats facing the Imperium. The Tyranid Advance, and the Imperium trying to plug the shit coming out of the Eye of Terror, I'm not sure that the Imperium could currently go through a reformation and restructuring without being overwhelmed by the other problems. 

I also look at it through how GW could possibly do something like this. At first it might sound farfetched, however to put things on a even keel for the sake of codex fluff and campaigns, it would make sense for the Imperium led by a Primarch to push back Chaos back into the Eye of Terror, and give Chaos the recognition of being that powerful danger to the Imperium but also recognizing the Imperium as the power of the Galaxy. It gives way to much ideas for the future fluff of a Black Crusade (knowing it will also be more powerful) and add to the Imperium's. 

However, I think if a Primarch did return they would be killed off after the GW Tabletop Campaign and the Imperium would remain unreformed. (This is a more probable approach to a Primarch returning should GW choose for it to happen)


----------



## bitsandkits

I know its fecking easter but who brought this thread back from the dead?


----------



## Bearer.of.the.Word

Abaddon finally pulls his finger out, unites the war-bands (mostly) kills the Emperor, the psychic backlash brings back all the other Primarchs who get thier legions form a pseudo empire and war it out, eventually one of the Primarchs pulls all heretics (non chaos worshippers) together and kills Abaddon, thus becoming the Emperor mkIII, the Chaos empire collapses and flees to the eye of terror until Horus mkIII unites them and re-takes the empire, and so forth again and again. All the while Necrons, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar fight each other to a stand still, and the rape-Eldar and Orks get on with thier thing.

This continues for eternity and Tzeentch grins his fucking arse off.
(the other gods just do what it is they do)


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## NetherMessenger

I think this might be a good plan for Games Workshop. Once fans are finally fed up with the emperor not dying at all, and the plot not advancing beyond m4 999, they say: "Aha! The lion comes back! And he takes his father's place! In stead of ruling in his personal interest, taking the position as gravely as his father did. And THEN the guy dies!"


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