# Prime models or models & base together?



## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

I am looking to do something like this http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ndex=1&aId=9300028&start=2&multiPageMode=true

do I even need to prime the base at all? or do I prime after I added the sand?


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Nothing says you have to, it's entirely up to you, however, when you do base, make sure there is a lot of PVA, because then it lets you paint it as well, which means you get a nice effect. 

Spraying it before doesn't make much difference, in my opinion, it's the application of it.


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## lav25gunner (Dec 13, 2008)

Some people like to paint the sand so they'll glue the sand to the base, then prime it and drybrush it to make it look like sand again. There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems like a waste of time.
You can glue the sand directly onto the base without the need to prime the base, but you should paint the base a brown because some of the black plastic always shows through.


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

I would prime it first, with a colour that will go with the sand. Like the graveyard earth that is in the guide.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

lav25gunner said:


> Some people like to paint the sand so they'll glue the sand to the base, then prime it and drybrush it to make it look like sand again.


I have tied using unpainted sand and painted sand looks better to me as it avoids the disjunction caused by everything being painted to have false light and shade part form the sand.


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## Joshawa (Jul 15, 2010)

lav25gunner said:


> Some people like to paint the sand so they'll glue the sand to the base, then prime it and drybrush it to make it look like sand again. There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems like a waste of time.
> You can glue the sand directly onto the base without the need to prime the base, but you should paint the base a brown because some of the black plastic always shows through.


I have to disagree with this. The time it takes to spray the primer on the base and dry brush the colors is insignificant. But the protection and durability you get by sealing in all the sand is important. If you plan on playing with the models I would recommend Gluing, priming, base coating, dry-brushing and sealing the basing material. 

With that being said I usually glue down the sand/basing material down and then just prime the whole mode because its just fasterl but I have saved basing for the end before and the result ends up the same.


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

I would agree with Joshawa, the sand stays on much better after it's primed. Personally i pin the model but not glue it on, so i prime both together and then detach to work on both individually, if i'm not feeling lazy. 

I have often found that by leaving sand it's natural colour it looks a bit weird on a model, very unfinished. For some reason painting sand , sand colour just ties the model together and painting it is very quick anyway.


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## lav25gunner (Dec 13, 2008)

moo said:


> I would agree with Joshawa, the sand stays on much better after it's primed. Personally i pin the model but not glue it on, so i prime both together and then detach to work on both individually, if i'm not feeling lazy.
> 
> I have often found that by leaving sand it's natural colour it looks a bit weird on a model, very unfinished. For some reason painting sand , sand colour just ties the model together and painting it is very quick anyway.


What colors do you use to paint your sand?


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

Scorched brown, khaki and then bleached bone as highlights. If i wanted a sandy effect, but i'd also put broken or scored pieces of plasticard to show cracked dry earth and then add some light brown flocking to show some dried foliage. ^^

If i wanted a mars red i would use scab red as the base and darken that with scorched brown and highlight with some orange i think.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

People will think I am mad when I say this - but I have done every base on every model for the last 12+ years like this, and its never fallen appart or had any issues.

I dont use PVA - I use a very heavy coat of paint to stick the sand onto the base.

Now this is the point where everyone looks at me funny.

The reason why I dont use PVA is that it makes it harder to paint the base AND means that you can end up with shiny bits showing through unless you do it perfectly.
sz
So - bases are done:

Heavy scorced brown
Dunk into sand
Wait a few minutes (do 10 models at a time and you dont have to wait)
Apply 2 coats of devlin mud wash (or one of the old brown ink which I prefer)
Leave to dry for 2+ hours (trust me - it needs it!)

Now the sand is fully bonded to the base AND every part of the sand has been shaded (even when looking at it from a weird angle.

Drybrush up with scorched brown, beastial brown up to bleached bone (few others in the middle)


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Maidel said:


> People will think I am mad when I say this - but I have done every base on every model for the last 12+ years like this, and its never fallen appart or had any issues.
> 
> I dont use PVA - I use a very heavy coat of paint to stick the sand onto the base.
> 
> Now this is the point where everyone looks at me funny.


I've never had any issues painting over PVA once it's primed, and I do think you're slightly loopy....but I can't argue with your results :victory:

Kudos for thinking outside the box


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

moo said:


> I would agree with Joshawa, the sand stays on much better after it's primed. Personally i pin the model but not glue it on, so i prime both together and then detach to work on both individually, if i'm not feeling lazy.
> 
> I have often found that by leaving sand it's natural colour it looks a bit weird on a model, very unfinished. For some reason painting sand , sand colour just ties the model together and painting it is very quick anyway.


You mean you prime the bases AFTER the sand is applied? or that you mean that the sand sticks better to the base if you prime the base before you apply it?


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

definitely stick all your basing materials on first and them prime the mini, works best, especially on large batches.

however, there are a few of my character mini's where I've done the base completely separately. It just depends on how 'busy' your base is in that situation.

PS - 800 post!!!!


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> You mean you prime the bases AFTER the sand is applied? or that you mean that the sand sticks better to the base if you prime the base before you apply it?


I'm fairly certain moo means he primes after sand has been applied. For my bases I glue a mix of sand and grit with pva glue, then prime it.

Bases can be painted really quickly and sand looks a lot better painted IMO, even if it's just a simple 2 colour drybrush.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Varakir said:


> I've never had any issues painting over PVA once it's primed, and I do think you're slightly loopy....but I can't argue with your results :victory:
> 
> Kudos for thinking outside the box


Oh - i should add - I apply and paint my bases AFTER the model has been painted. Force of habit from using coloured flock 20+ year ago.


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## Count_the_Seven (May 19, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Oh - i should add - I apply and paint my bases AFTER the model has been painted. Force of habit from using coloured flock 20+ year ago.


^^^^^This ^^^^^

It's all interpretation though...


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

I do indeed mean i stick the sand and base stuff on then prime it. The only stuff i don't add on before priming is grass/flock and water effect.


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

I always stick the sand on with PVA before undercoating the model. The Undercoat spray seems to coat the sand making it more permanent. 
I think Unpainted sand on bases looks a bit unfinished, and it also tends fall off if the models are handled a lot.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

It's fascinating how many variations on using sand there are.


I usually prime the base and model. Priming helps the paint and pva glue stick to the base.
Paint the model.
Use an old brush to paint slightly thinned pva glue onto the base.
Submerge the base in a small bowl of sand (I use a mix of 2 grits of scenic ballast).
Remove the model from the sand and allow excess to fall back into the bowl of sand.
Clean the base edges of sticking but over-flowing sand. I like to keep the vertical rim of the base clean of excess.
Allow time for the pva glue to dry.
1 Coat of the base and vertical sides using dark angels green
Wet-dry brush of goblin green. Paint vertical sides goblin green.
Wet-dry brush of (I think) sunburst yellow.
Done.

Cheers,
Kreuger


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Oh my god. A green base man!

I haven't seen green bases for 15 years.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

Can you explain to me what wet-dry brush is ? I was thinking of doing green base for my dark eldar for contrast effect.

Ontopic, I do the bases last. I don't want to glue sand before I've painted model, because I would have to repaint it, cause some of paint would go on sand, I'm not too tidy.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

dry brush involves putting paint on the brush, and then wiping it off until there is the faintest hint of paint left - then attacking the model with it.

wet brushing is basically the same thing, appart from you only wipe half the paint off and then use that.

The difference is that a true 'dry brush' will only leave a thin layer of paint on the very highest points of the model you are painting, whereas a wet brush will get more paint onto the area, and some will go onto lower lying parts of the model.


Ontopic - if you dont paint the sand then yes, putting it on first is a bad idea - but if you are going to paint it then it doesnt really matter.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

I ve done drybrushing before, but this is first time i hear about wet brushing. Thanks for clarification.


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## Dragearen (Sep 8, 2009)

I always prime the base with the model on it. It's much harder to prime slotta-based models without their bases, and it just generally saves trouble. For my DE and Nids, I just throw on some sand, maybe a bit of debris, some sprues, prime it, and slap on a few colors of paint and some lichen and call it good. For Lizardmen, just basecoat part of the base white after painting, coat the rest in very watered down blue, wetblend the blue with white, let it all dry, then put snow on the white areas and water effect on the blue areas.

@Maidel
Hm. Why wipe off the paint? I've done wetbrushing a lot(especially on bases), but I never wipe off the paint. I'm guessing that's just a quantity control thing?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Dragearen said:


> @Maidel
> Hm. Why wipe off the paint? I've done wetbrushing a lot(especially on bases), but I never wipe off the paint. I'm guessing that's just a quantity control thing?


Well I suppose it depends on how much you put on the brush to start with, and what effect you are looking to achieve.

If I am 'wet brushing' something like terrain I would use a tank brush - shove it in the pot and then wipe of most of the excess on the rip of the pot.

If you dont wipe off some paint then you end up with a huge SPLODGE where you first put the brush down, and then the effect you are looking for.

I wet brush a lot of things as a base coat- my crimson fists are wetbrushed over the base black which means I get a nice covering of blue, some shadow, but I dont end up with the very 'dusty' appearance that you get from dry brushing.

Again, its all about the effect you want to achieve and how much paint you want to be getting on the model/base.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

*Wet-Dry Brushing*

I keep promising a tutorial on this, bu life is really busy.

"Wet-dry brushing" is perhaps something of a misnomer, but I don't have a better term for the process.

Maidel has most of what I do. 

Essentially it's a process of painting miniatures using a large-ish brush, with more paint and more water in it than one would with dry brushing.

I almost exclusively work over black primer, and build up highlights through colors dark -> light. And I work from large areas of color to small areas of color.

This method basically gives me a fast way to paint large areas and develop their highlighting over many layers quickly, without that obnoxious texture and streaking one gets using too much dry brushing. But it still affords me a lot of control because like dry brushing the raised areas of a model will naturally pick up the color.

For a given color . . . 

Dip brush in the color 
Quick dip in water to thin out the paint slightly (this was less necessary with older editions of citadel color which had a thinner consistency and were designed for blending)
Wipe brush gently on a cloth to absorb excess water and paint. I want the brush to be wet or damp, but not saturated.
Then paint a give area, such as armor or cloak, using quick strokes

When building up colors I usually start a shade or two down from the target shade and a tone or two closer to black. 
So for instance Berzerker armor goes:

Scorched brown
Bestial brown
Blood red
Ruby red (the old color for highlights)

This sounds like a lot of work, but it's really quick because each color layer is fairly thin and dries almost instantly - and inherits the previous color as a base-coat.

If that sounds like something that you want a tutorial on let me know - enough requests and I might do one. ><

I hope that makes more sense!
Kreuger


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Just to show examples (thanks Kreugar - thats what I was meaning, but you explained it much better)

Both the tank (sorry about the bad photo on that one) and all the marines and bases were wet brushed - and then the details painted afterwards.


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## Joshawa (Jul 15, 2010)

Sometime you may want to throw in some plain old cat litter into the mix to give the sand a little more accent. Just go through the same process as with regular sand. 

Another little trick I figured out was if you put a Gob of super glue (liquid) over a mound of unpainted cat litter it will absorb the super glue and give it a totally different texture.

The first pic is regular sand mixed with cat litter, the 2nd one I used the super glue trick.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Did I hear wrong? you are using cat excrements for basing?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> Did I hear wrong? you are using cat excrements for basing?


I think he means use the cat litter BEFORE the cat has used it.


Or at least thats what I HOPE he meant...


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## Joshawa (Jul 15, 2010)

Vokshev said:


> Did I hear wrong? you are using cat excrements for basing?


I think you heard me wrong, I would never have a Cat in my house. Cat litter has all sorts of uses, where as a cat has exactly.....zero


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Joshawa said:


> I think you heard me wrong, I would never have a Cat in my house. Cat litter has all sorts of uses, where as a cat has exactly.....zero


My cat has lots of uses.


1) Hot water bottle
2) Foot warmer
3) Bug catcher
4) Dustbin
5) free entertainment for my child
:laugh:


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Maidel said:


> My cat has lots of uses.
> 
> 
> 1) Hot water bottle
> ...


You use your cat as a bottle and drink from it?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> You use your cat as a bottle and drink from it?



I think there is a language barrier here...

Hot water bottle is a rubber flat bottle the size of a sheet of a4 paper that you put hot water in and then put in bed with you to keep you warm.

Obviously I don't put hot water in the cat, but he is already warm so he has the sane effect.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

. . . I think it's the act of draining hot water from the cat that is especially disturbing.

edit - I don't know where Vokshev is from, but at least in the States we have hot water bottles.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> . . . I think it's the act of draining hot water from the cat that is especially disturbing.
> .


When it comes to my cat - frankly I would do it if I could get my hands on the squeaky, sofa shreading, fridge raiding little shit bag....


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Cat aside...If I were to prime my bases after sand is applied, do I still need to 'seal' it with water down PVA? or the primer will do the job fine?


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh another thing...basing with sand should only be done AFTER the mini is attached to it yes? For a more secure connection between the mini and base.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> Oh another thing...basing with sand should only be done AFTER the mini is attached to it yes? For a more secure connection between the mini and base.


Oh definately, you don't want the full weight of the model (even if it is plastic) attached soley to a few grains of sand.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok I have done up my bases by,

Applying water down white glue on base.(didn't know how much water is needed but they looked runny like paint)

Submerged it in a pot of GW sand.

Realised that is it not that well covered, I added abit more PVA glue and submerge it in sand again.

Sand keeps coming off, so I dripped a few drops of VERY watered down PVA glue (basically a slightly cloudy mix of water)

The bases kinda...drank, sucked in the solution, it looks abit darker as it was wet but now after a day later the colour did not change even it dried. And that though the sand is really secure, the glue seems to cause it to loose abit of texture, and if I were to prime it I fear more will be lost.



I have no idea how much sand should there be to have a decent looking model, and should I strip the bases and do it again?

I know this is a simple process.....but I want to get it right.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

If I were doing bases with PVA (which as I stated above I refuse to do...)

I would use:

1) Full strength undiluted thick PVA glue all over the base

2) Dunk in sand leave for 10+ seconds before gently banging off the excess.

3) Leave for a few hours (whatever the PVA glue says it takes to dry.)

4) Water down PVA as you did, to the consistancy of thin paint - cover all the sand in a thin coat.

5) Prime (or if doing after painting the model, paint in dark brown)


done.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Won't you have those tiny dotted areas that might not be cover with sand? would you go forth and apply some more glue to add more sand? or would that make it too thick?

You just go for 1 single pass of sand adding and paint everything including the empty areas?

If you were to apply PVA + Prime after that will you still be able to see the grains of sand at all? or would it just end up looking like a piece of rock and many tiny holes?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

If you apply a nice thick coat of PVA (i mean thick enough to see the PVA, not a very thin flat coating) then you will have sand covering every part of the base. I do it with paint - thick enough to cover the base and dunk into sand - you never see any of the base afterwards.

If you feel the need to apply more sand afterwards then you are doing something wrong at the begining - there is no way that you will have 'holes' in the sand coverage if you are doing it right the first time.

Primer if applied correctly does not fill any gaps at all - otherwise it would obscure all details on the model - so dont worry about that.

If you are concerned about any of this - do the base after painting the model - that way it wont end up with PVA+primer+acidental paint from the model+paint+highlights


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Maidel said:


> People will think I am mad when I say this - but I have done every base on every model for the last 12+ years like this, and its never fallen appart or had any issues.
> 
> I dont use PVA - I use a very heavy coat of paint to stick the sand onto the base.
> 
> ...


 

I suddenly realise that YOU are the one who uses paint to stick the sand!(sorry!)

You are relying on the acrylic properties to seal the sand in once it dries? 

It obviously works for you but how well does it work? is the sand as secure to the base as when white glue is used?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> I suddenly realise that YOU are the one who uses paint to stick the sand!(sorry!)
> 
> You are relying on the acrylic properties to seal the sand in once it dries?
> 
> It obviously works for you but how well does it work? is the sand as secure to the base as when white glue is used?


yes - I am that freak 

however what I rely upon is the heavy coats of ink I put on after the paint - that seems to secure the sand better than anything else I have seen.

I dont know if its as secure as using PVA glue - mainly because appart from some experiments, ive never used it.

What I can say is, if done right, I havent had a base lose any sand for 13 years.

Why 13 years - well thats when I started doing bases this way (before hand I was using coloured flocks and stone chips).


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

The only time I've primed anything was my models on their sprues. I'll end up just taking a stock base and (once the model itself is done), dabbing on however much PVA Glue I need to get whatever I need affixed to it. Seems pretty much like the standard practice.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

I tried my best to get a close up, is my sand on the bases too thick and have too much of em'?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

All looks perfect to me.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Is there too much sand? The sand thickness of my models ranges from 0.8mm to 1.2mm. I just don't want it to look as if the marine is stuck in the sand unnaturally deep once it is finished.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> Is there too much sand? The sand thickness of my models ranges from 0.8mm to 1.2mm. I just don't want it to look as if the marine is stuck in the sand unnaturally deep once it is finished.


I think my personal rule would be if it looks like the marine is standing in 2 holes on the sand around his feet, then you used too much, if it looks like he is leaving nice foot prints, but only a little depression rather than a ditch, then you are getting it right.

A little variation is good however, the ground isn't uniform so having ever base look identical isn't right either.


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