# The Outcast Dead Discussion (Spoilers)



## Words_of_Truth

Don't really this if you don't want to know what happens.

I thought the book was epic, started off a little slow but got better and better. Loved how it settled the whole "Did he know" debate which has been going on for ages.

Some of the bits where a bit unusual such as the Thousand Son being able to destroy his psychic abilities. The whole "argo" part annoyed me, it made me feel like it was part of another book because I didn't know what was going on, but I'm guessing that's what the writer was trying to achieve.

A lot of grammar mistakes though, a lot of missing words etc.


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## Anakwanar

Could you spoil a full story please?
I wonna know if it have this band of 6 marines battles againsts Horus Chaos SM, OR IT SIMPLY imperial forces trying to kill this astropath hole book?
And i think "Did he know is about Dark Angel Primarch?


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## Words_of_Truth

Don't read the spoiler below unless you want to know the gist of the entire story.




It's about a astropath who receives detailed knowledge of how the war is going to end after Magnus the Red breaks through the webway the Emperor is working on, which sends all the psykers to their deaths and at the moment of their death they are at their most powerful, so the lead astropath who is with the prime choir receives this vision and passes it on to Kai (the lead character) who went through a traumatic experience and the vision was kept deep down within his nightmares so that no one can extract it from him, he has to confront his nightmares to get it.

He's taken to the prison where several marines from the traitor legions including a very powerful Thousand Son is imprisoned.

They basically break out, the TS receives a vision from his Primarch and takes Kai with him, what results is them basically escaping, crashing into a slum called the petitioner city where an ancient Thunder Warrior (Thunder Lord) runs a gang which controls it, he wants the geneseed and stuff from the marines so goes after them, it all culminates with a massive battle where nearly everyone dies apart from the Thousand Son who back chats Rogal Dorn and has his head blown off as a reward.

Kai finally confronts his nightmares and gives the Emperor the knowledge (The Emperor keeps popping up in his dreams having a game of "chess" with him) but he doesn't want the rest of the Imperium to know because it'll almost certainly make them lose so he looks into his friend, a navigators eye to kill himself.

It ends with the Thunder Lord in his lab with new organs that have worked because he stole the geneseed and organs from the dead renegade marines.


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## Anakwanar

*Thank you*

1 question through - spoiler alert:k:

Who is this Thunder Lords?


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## Words_of_Truth

The Thunder Lord was the Banner bearer of the Emperor during the last war of Unity, a renowned "hero" even the Astartes knew about. In this book it's clear that Thunder Warriors where just as tough and powerful as a Marine, just an earlier design.


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## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> The Thunder Lord was the Banner bearer of the Emperor during the last war of Unity, a renowned "hero" even the Astartes knew about. In this book it's clear that Thunder Warriors where just as tough and powerful as a Marine, just an earlier design.


does the book touch on what makes a marine superior to a thunder warrior? why does the Emperor switch to marines?


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## Words_of_Truth

Yeah, it states that theres a genetic flaw in the Thunder Warriors, they where never meant to be used to crusade throughout the galaxy, it's stated the Emperor did it deliberately so that he would get all the praise once the battle for Unity was over. The Thunder Lord accepted it since he was a servant of the Emperor and acknowledged his role in the universe, however he still wanted to correct this flaw which is why he stole bits of the dead marines in an attempt to "cure" him and his lieutenants flaw. 

Another spoiler here for what the lieutenant does when he faces the marines first -



He does beat and kill an Emperor's Children marine who was mainly a shooty marine, he forces the marine to miss and the marine gets angry and so goes after him, they duel and the lieutenant hits him hard with his hammer he eventually dies quickly afterwards.


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## World Eater XII

Seems like a bizaree story line. 

Not against that or anything, just seems a tad "out there"


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## Words_of_Truth

Aye, it's all about pre-destination, the future, the past and the choices the Emperor has to make or has made.


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## MontytheMighty

Sounds great to me. I am going to buy this book just to read the explanations in the authour's words. I love stories that explore the origins/history of 40k. It does seem a bit odd that the Emperor doesn't just start out with Astartes though. I've always thought that the Thunder Warriors are unintentionally flawed and that the Emperor designs the Astartes to fix the problem. 

This is interesting though. I hope the explanation makes sense in the novel.


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## Phoebus

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah, it states that theres a genetic flaw in the Thunder Warriors, they where never meant to be used to crusade throughout the galaxy, it's stated the Emperor did it deliberately so that he would get all the praise once the battle for Unity was over. The Thunder Lord accepted it since he was a servant of the Emperor and acknowledged his role in the universe, however he still wanted to correct this flaw which is why he stole bits of the dead marines in an attempt to "cure" him and his lieutenants flaw.


Is that the Thunder Lord's perspective, though, or the Emperor's?


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## Words_of_Truth

The Thunder Lords. He states the surviving Thunder Warriors where systematically destroyed, and that the idea they had all been killed during the final battle was a lie dreamt up to make the Emperor seem even more powerful. 

There was a definite flaw in their construction but the Thunder Lord being so close to the Emperor had learnt enough to figure out a way to fix it however it needed genetic material from an Astartes.


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## Phoebus

That's pretty f'ing ruthless.


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## Sacred Feth

Sounds interesting... Was there any "mind-blowing" revelations?


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## shadowhawk2008

Well, as I said, and as you can gather from the two excerpts that are available from BL, the story is about Kai Zulane, an astropath who harbours a dark secret that can decide the fate of the Horus Heresy.

The Outcast Dead itself as a title refers to the Astartes who take the centre stage alongside Kai in the novel. One Thousand Sons Sorcerer (an Athanaen), a World Eaters Sergeant, two World Eaters Astartes (they are twins), an Emperor's Children, A Luna Wolf, and a Death Guard. It is mentioned that the title is some old-Terran reference for warriors such as them. 

These seven have been incarcerated from the beginning of the pre-prologues in a prison designed to lock away the most dangerous individuals on Terra/in the galaxy. A prison that is guarded by at least a platoon of Army troopers and two Custodes. It doesn't bear saying that Atharva (the Thousand Son) manages to manipulate the mind of an Army trooper and has himself set free along with the other mentioned Astartes. In the process the two Custodes are also killed.

The aforementioned prison is some kind of analogue to that prison in San Francisco harbour (the name escapes me) that had a movie made about it. There is a throwaway reference in the novel that efforts are underway to ensure that when Horus is brought back to Terra, he can be safely locked away there.

Back to Kai, he is the best astropath ever from the City of Sight, but he is broken because there was some kind of a warp storm that affected the ship he was on (an Ultramarines vessel) and the ship subsequently suffered from a daemonic invasion. Kai and the Navigator were the only survivors. The astropath believes himself to be responsible because he was doing some astropathic mumbo-jumbo (nuncio, kinda goes with that Enuncia? thing from the Ravenor novels) at the time.

So the navigator house that employs Kai wants to throw him to the Mountain (all references in the novel lead me to believe that this is where the psykers are "sacrificed" to the Astronomicon). But a deal is worked out where he is sent to be "remade" at the City of Sight. This is in reference to that first excerpt.

Somewhere near the Imperial Palace there is a city called the Petitioner's City, which you can very well say is how a 40k hive would be like, except more crime and no hive. We learn way later in the novel that the aforementioned Navigator ran away from her family to hide here. She takes refuge in a "temple" where a man who has lost his family cares for the needy people and the Petitioners who throng the Palace. (Entrance to the Palace is now heavily restricted). Her mini-arc isn't that interesting and is totally trumped by that of Kai.

So, the novel starts off with Dorn learning that Ferrus Manus is being headstrong at Istvaan V, Kai Zulane arrives at the City of Sight to be remade, we meet the Navigator in the Petitioner's City (we don't know yet what she is).

We also meet the Cryptaethsians (I am butchering that spelling unintentionally) who sift through the astropathic communique's looking for hidden subtext. It appears that the astropathic choirs get only the high-level gist of messages and these guys are the ones who look for hidden meanings, ciphers, details and what not. Their activities take place below the astropathic tower in the City of Sight if I read the text right.

The choirs are also guarded by Black Sentinels, a group of veterans (they come across as veterans) who are there to take care of any daemonic incursions. Of course they don't really know these are daemonic incursions. They are just there to pop an Astropath if he/she goes nuts and makes something nasty happen.

This eventually happens when Magnus contacts the Emperor to deliver his warning. The psychic backlash of Magnus' actions cause havoc in the City of Sight, causing a major warp incursion. The chief astropath lady becomes sort of possessed and delivers a message to Kai, who happens to be nearby. May I point out that she is also Kai's mentor (or was when he was a trainee).

After the incursion is dealt with, Kai is thrown into the previously mentioned prison. The message is locked deep within his mind where he blames himself for the destruction of the Ultramarines vessel and since that incident is something he doesn't want to think about or something, he can't access the message. But Dorn, the Custodes and the astropaths want to know just what he was told.

Somewhere around here is also when we learn what happened on Istvaan V (the second excerpt). It quickly becomes common news among the citizenry and the madness that ensues is quite similar to what happens to Mars when the scrap-code is loosed. So the importance of the message given to Kai is that much higher.

When Atharva and the others break out, they take Kai with them, intending to steal a warp-capable ship and head to Horus.

They are pursued by a mixed force of Black Sentinels, a Custodes, a Culexus assassin in thrall to a "noble bounty hunter"-type fella, the astropath who was helping Kai retrain, and one of Kai's psyker interrogators. 

They are chased into the Petitioner's City and eventually head over to that temple. The city is terrorized by a local crime-lord who everyone is afraid of. This guy uses gene-bulked enforcers.

The temple is home to a particular statue known as the vacant angel. It comes into play when, given all the death going around it during the bolter-climax, it comes to life. Apparently, the warp boundaries are thin here and it is possessed.

The bolter-climax involves the hunting party, the surviving Outcast Dead, Kai, the navigator, the crime-lord and his top enforcer, and the possessed statue.

It is revealed that the crime-lord is a Thunder Warrior who survived the purge that happened sometime around the First Founding. And he is not just any TW, but he is Arek Taranis, the Lightning Bearer. It could be said that he is the Constantin Valdor of the Thunder Warriors. Apparently, these warriors were not created for the long-term and once Terra was unified, a purge was instigated to eliminate them all. Taranis somehow escaped. 

His body is failing (and that of his top enforcer) and he needs the gene-seed of the Astartes to survive. And he does get it at the end of the novel.

During this climax, the Navigator convinces Kai that the vessel's destruction was not his fault. Once he accepts this, he is able to access the message. Which turns out to be blurred visions of the Horus v/s Sanguinius fight, the Horus v/s Emperor fight and the vision of our grimdark 40k.

It needs to be said at this point that whenever Kai tries to access the message previously (in a sort of Inception-style dreamscape of his own making) he is contacted by a gold-armoured figure for whom the astropath lady intended the message. Kai and this guy play regicide together, hence the quote on the BL FB page. It turns out that this figure is the Emperor and Kai is able to pass on the message.

Consequently, the Emperor knew he was going to nearly die when he went to confront Horus and also knew that Sanguinius was going to definitely die. My prose is hardly any good, but Graham did a very good job of making the entire climax very emotional and thought-provoking. You have to really read all of this to appreciate it fully.

Anyways, Atharva confronts the Culexus assassin but cannot win, so he cuts off his connection to the Warp it seems like. He then kills the assassin. He also fights against the Vacant Angel, which is eventually banished. Dorn shows up later and shoots Atharva.

The World Eaters also die. The Death Guard was dead by the time the traitors get to the city. The Emperor's Children dude also dies. IIRC, it is only the Luna Wolf who manages to escape.

There is also a World Eater "litany" in the novel which ends with the phrase: "Battle cares not from whence blood flows."


That's the long and short of this. I am probably forgetting a few things here. I'd go back to the novel to make sure of everything but I am knee-deep in Nocturne at the moment.


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## VitalDread

I wonder if we will see more of the Thunder Lord later on in the HH series.
Maybe he will side with Horus and seek revenge against the Emperor for killing off the rest of the TW or side with the Emperor and prove that they are better then the Space Marines.

Thanks for the review, saves a lot of time but def going to read this book when i reach it in the series.


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## shadowhawk2008

Taranis is definitely set up for a second appearance. Although I wouldn't discount the missing Luna Wolf either. And somehow, I get the idea that Taranis just wants to survive, he no longer cares about the rest of the world.


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## MontytheMighty

shadowhawk2008 said:


> Taranis is definitely set up for a second appearance. Although I wouldn't discount the missing Luna Wolf either. And somehow, I get the idea that Taranis just wants to survive, he no longer cares about the rest of the world.




very nice synopsis, are Arek and his "top enforcer" the only surviving Thunder Warriors (at the beginning of the novel...I'm aware that the enforcer is possibly killed by the end of the book)?


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## shadowhawk2008

Monty I would suggest that you keep that post under spoilers.

But, to answer, yes.


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## Words_of_Truth

MontytheMighty said:


> very nice synopsis, are Arek and his "top enforcer" the only surviving Thunder Warriors (at the beginning of the novel...I'm aware that the enforcer is possibly killed by the end of the book)?




The Thunder Lord and His enforcer survive


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## VitalDread

do you reckon we could see them help out the Emperor and show that he is more powerful then the Space Marines or do you reckon he will side with Horus and show the Emperor whos boss etc


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## shadowhawk2008

Side with the Emperor? Nah.

Side with Horus? Maybe, although it might be a stretch, given that he's harvested gene-seed from Traitor Astartes.


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## MontytheMighty

question: 

are the imprisoned Astartes in the novel loyalists of traitor legions or true traitors who have sided with Horus?


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## shadowhawk2008

They appear to be somewhere in the middle.

However, the World Eater Sergeant, Tagore, makes a comment that when they get to Istvaan and find that Angron has really turned away from the Emperor, then he will kill the Primarch himself. (paraphrased)


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## Words_of_Truth

Yeah they really ain't in on the whole heresy, it just so happens they are on Terra at the time and the Imperium imprisons them.


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## MontytheMighty

shadowhawk2008 said:


> They appear to be somewhere in the middle. However, the World Eater Sergeant, Tagore, makes a comment that when they get to Istvaan and find that Angron has really turned away from the Emperor, then *he will kill the Primarch himself*. (paraphrased)


good luck with that


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## Xisor

No one thought it was odd that the book sets the chronology (from the perspective of people giving orders on Earth) that the news of the Isstvan Dropsite Massacre is known _before_ Magnus' message arrives and causes Bad Things, encouraging anyone to send the Wolves against Magnus?

E.g. they _know_ that Horus has already destroyed three loyal Legions, but that as one _demonstrably loyal_ one is misbehaving, they have to send another Legion to deal with it...instead of dealing with Horus?

There's a lot wrong with the book, for me. It kills me that someone like Richard Williams and his excellently crafted novel _Imperial Glory_ sit 'very far away' from the HH series, whilst Graham gets a book every year or two.

Not to say Graham's a bad writer, he's not, but he's put out some...lacklustre (in my esteem, though they're undeniably popular) books in his time.


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## NIKT208

Xisor said:


> There's a lot wrong with the book, for me. It kills me that someone like Richard Williams and his excellently crafted novel _Imperial Glory_ sit 'very far away' from the HH series, whilst Graham gets a book every year or two.
> 
> Not to say Graham's a bad writer, he's not, but he's put out some...lacklustre (in my esteem, though they're undeniably popular) books in his time.


What do you not like about the book in particular? Is it Graham's style or the story?


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## Mishiman

Xisor: I think it is a matter of personal taste when we come to books and authors. For example I think that most of Graham's books are mediocre but not his HH work. I think that OD is in 5 top HH books [the rest are Mechanicum, ATS, Legion and TFH]. And in my opinion books that you think are excellent like IG or Atlas Infernal are just one of the weakest ever produced by BL. There are many BL writers that people find great [like Kyme or Swallows] and for me their books are very bad or even unreadable. So I can only guess that Mr McNeill will have more books in the future then for example Richard Williams because more people like his style and stories.


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## Words_of_Truth

Xisor said:


> No one thought it was odd that the book sets the chronology (from the perspective of people giving orders on Earth) that the news of the Isstvan Dropsite Massacre is known _before_ Magnus' message arrives and causes Bad Things, encouraging anyone to send the Wolves against Magnus?
> 
> E.g. they _know_ that Horus has already destroyed three loyal Legions, but that as one _demonstrably loyal_ one is misbehaving, they have to send another Legion to deal with it...instead of dealing with Horus?
> 
> There's a lot wrong with the book, for me. It kills me that someone like Richard Williams and his excellently crafted novel _Imperial Glory_ sit 'very far away' from the HH series, whilst Graham gets a book every year or two.
> 
> Not to say Graham's a bad writer, he's not, but he's put out some...lacklustre (in my esteem, though they're undeniably popular) books in his time.


I did pick up on it and thought it was unusual.


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## NIKT208

Words_of_Truth said:


> I did pick up on it and thought it was unusual.


To be honest much of the timing within the novel seems off, or maybe it was intentional. In the Outcast Dead Magnus sends his warning after Istvaan had already happened? In Prospero Burns the demon tells Hawser that Horus is going to be wounded on Davin in a years time (well after Russ attacks Prospero). Whats going on here?


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## Xisor

Mishiman said:


> Xisor: I think it is a matter of personal taste when we come to books and authors. For example I think that most of Graham's books are mediocre but not his HH work. I think that OD is in 5 top HH books [the rest are Mechanicum, ATS, Legion and TFH]. And in my opinion books that you think are excellent like IG or Atlas Infernal are just one of the weakest ever produced by BL. There are many BL writers that people find great [like Kyme or Swallows] and for me their books are very bad or even unreadable. So I can only guess that Mr McNeill will have more books in the future then for example Richard Williams because more people like his style and stories.


Intriguing, Mishiman. I wonder what you felt weak on the AI front? (The rampant, non-stop colourful 'add everything in' of the book seems the most likely thing to turn people away, in my eyes. A bit of a bold move for Sanders, but it's handled in such a way that it appealed almost precisely to my tastes.)

As for Graham, I suppose his style is probably more popular in general. It's difficult to come away from Richard Williams thinking "Wow, that book rocked!" because both his novels that I've read (_Relentless_ and _Imperial Glory_) are extremely miserable. Nevertheless, I thought Williams handles characters in a much more compelling way. Athava & Kai Zulane are almost the definition of Mary Sue. 

"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. "

Athava, super-duper Thousand Son. Not just any Thousand Son, but a Marks and Spencers Thousand Son. Kai, super-duper Astropath. Not just any astropath, but *best*. Navigator, not just any navigator, but of the _best[/b] family.

I realise we're in the Horus Heresy, but even 'the best' folks have flaws. Or interesting and enjoyable depictions (Horus in Horus Rising). Or well executed badassery (Skraal & Mhotep). Or very brief but memorable/persisting concerns (the bulk of the characters in Imperial Glory). 

I didn't like many of the characters. The story was ambitious but didn't deliver the goods. The 'conceit' of the message was interesting, but about as stimulating, when thought on for more than a few seconds, has no more 'oomf' than the arguments presented in The Last Church.

I get the idea...and the idea itself is pretty neat...but it doesn't carry well in the story. Perhaps: it could (and IMO: should) have been better.

Also the timing shenanigans, the stock-characterisation of the Custodes, the really tepid depiction of Astropaths, bland/rehashed outlook on Terra.

All that really fell flat.



NIKT208 said:



What do you not like about the book in particular? Is it Graham's style or the story?

Click to expand...

I can forgive Graham's style, I'm plenty familiar with it, at least. Storm of Iron and Warriors of Ultramar are excellent books, I enjoyed Mechanicum very highly (though many of the complaints I have here still apply to it), I was blown away by A Thousand Sons (I didn't think sense it was bolter porn at all)...but I still marvel at the style and prose of Matt Farrer, Aaron D-B and Chris Wraight; they're able to ooze class. 

Graham, I think, has to rely on spinning a good yarn. I don't think he did this time, and that leaves me looking at a writing style which I don't think is up to much. (I think that criticism's important considering the book's ostensibly about Astropaths, but the first thing done to the main character is to make him not blind.)



Words_of_Truth said:



I did pick up on it and thought it was unusual.

Click to expand...

It's more than unusual: if it holds water, it has serious implications on what the hell anyone was doing going to Prospero anyway, wouldn't you say?

---

*Caveats*

There's still a lot I did enjoy about the book, but nowhere near enough to redeem it its critical failures in my eyes. (Unlike Battle for the Abyss, which fails entirely on having rubbish central protaganists and rubbish antagonists [and the definitive stock character: Brynngar, though even he goes through an interesting arc]; but is sufficiently redeemed by Counter's excellent space battles, decent depiction of the background, vivid encounters with warpy-ness, well depicted characters in Skraal & Mhotep etc.)

Of note in OD, McNeill's few pages on the arrival and impact of Magnus' message was excellent. He could've really put the characters through half the novel with that as a backdrop and then revealed Isstvan V's result, but that's not how it works out (and that's not much of a spoiler).

The depiction itself is neat though. And the present-tense perspective from Captain Japan are probably my highlights of the book.

The dream-sequences are well handled and very interesting, it's just a shame that they don't, IMO, hold up to inspection as 'good ideas' (which unfortunately undermines them having been well handled)._


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## Mishiman

There are many parts I felt weak on AI front dear Xisor. Ones mentioned by you for example too but more important for me were his wooden villains ala Battle for the Abyss. As fan of ATH and Ahriman I was shocked how simple and uninterested his persona become. Just insert any no name Chaos Lord and you are. Someone could argument that it all happens after 10 thousand years and he could and probably has changed. It is possibility but for me it is not enough. Other think was authors nightmarish description of battle scenes. There were moments that I had no idea what is going on.


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## Angel of Blood

Yeah i was a bit confused when Magnus in relation to the timeline.

Personally i loved this little part, just the bluntness and jaw dropping nature of the message(for them anyway):
_Imperial counter-strike massacred on Istvaan V.
Vulkan and Corax missing. Ferrus Manus dead.
Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are with Horus Lupercal._

Definetly a huge 'Oh shit' moment for the loyalists. And though we've known for ages, hell even read exactly how it happened, the line 'Ferrus Manus dead.' really drove the finality of it home.

Out of interest, what did everybody else think of this small line on pg161 when Ibn Khaldun is recieving a message just before Magnus arrives:
"Twins conjoined by a single soul, tugging in different directions"


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## Phoebus

Speaks volumes, I think, as to why Alpha Legion eventually went Chaos.


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## Xisor

Speaks one assertion, rather than volumes. I'm not sure I like the "one stayed loyal, one rebelled" side of things. Mainly because it's got <not much at all> to do with the really cool ethos espoused in Ch7 of _Legion_: The Alpha Legion never really bought into the Emperor's vision in the first place, so when the Heresy happened it was business as usual for them - secrets and lies and trying to ensure the survival and prosperity of the species.

I mean, yeah, it allows for A/O to go in differing directions but it never seemed to imply they'd be tugging (as if against one another). 

That said, I agree, that little snippet was chilling. It has a very similar impact as the last lines of _Throne of Lies_. (Which almost has me in tears when I listen to it.)


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## mal310

Oh dear, what can I say, maybe its me, perhaps I expect too much? There was plenty in the book I liked but unfortunately one huge massive elephant and lots of other niggles that spoiled the whole thing for me and maybe even the whole series. 

Lets look at the niggles, why was Gythua not in the Dramatis Personae? Who were the rest of the Crusader Host and why were they arrested if they were from loyal Legions? What happened to them? Who and why did the Crusader Host exist? Took too long to get going. I didn't think the 'secret' was all that interesting. I don't like the whole 'see into the future thing' and YET again the Emperor is portrayed as a bit of a prick. When is he going to get some love for Christ sake! 

And the elephant, I don't normally swear in these forum's but I'll make an exception. WHY THE FUCKING HELL is Magnus's warning placed after the battle of Isstvan 5? Can someone please explain what the fuck that is about. Can anybody explain it? Graham why? WHY? You wrote A Thousand Sons for Christ sake! It makes no sense on any level at ALL. As I say maybe its me but this changes chronology of events drastically and totally contradicts everything written before about this. I don't tend to get so annoyed with a fiction book but I have really enjoyed most of the series and this kind of thing just ruins it for me I'm afraid. 

"Oh hi Dad you know my brother Horus who you have sent 7 Legions to destroy (but not the Space Wolves as they must be busy with their fingers up their arses), he's a traitor, I've risked everything to tell you this because you must be warned that he is no longer on your side. Oh you already know this! Ok, I'm just Magnus the Red, there is no way I would have found out about 7 Legions being sent to destroy my brother, must have slipped my attention. Oh one other thing Dad, if you already know this and knew it before I came crashing in here causing havoc why the hell are you sitting here on your backside and not rushing out there to deal with it yourself?" 

I'm disappointed in Graham to be honest, there is no need for this at all in the story. It could have been worked easily so that the chronology had not changed. Although I have been a big defender of the series continuing for a long time I have to say that after this I'm going to give it a rest for a while. I may come back to it in the future, I may not. 

:angry:


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## Angel of Blood

Yeah i was sort of expecting Gythua to die ALOT earlier seeing as he wasn't in the Dramatis Personae, but like you said its just a small niggle.

I assumed the loyalists that had been arrested were arrested by association. But yeah i'm disapointed that it never actually explained what the crusader host was and why it existed.

But yeah, like i said in mine. Magnus arrival in relation to the timescale was a massive......HUH?!?


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## Baron Spikey

Did anyone else note in one of the 'Regicide Conversations' that the Emperor strongly insinuated that he purposely sacrificed Ferrus Manus?

Now that is ruthless!


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## Words_of_Truth

I thought he was referring to Sanguinius since the immediate game afterwards referred to the fight between himself and Horus.


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## Xisor

I think the following that I posted on Warseer/Bolthole should hopefully let Mal310 know he's not gone insane. It helped me. Vindication or something like that.

*What was Graham McNeill thinking? I'd like to know.*
_A repeat of some material I posted on Warseer & the Bolthole_

Had a niggling feeling and have been moving through _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_ to see what all the fuss is about:

Pg 186: "For all this time, the Emperor was seemingly oblivious to the events in far Isstvan, Calth, Signus and Prospero [X: Dropsite Massacre hasn't been mentioned at all yet]. He had appointed Malcador the Sigilite as Regent of the Imperium, to rule in his stead, whilst he completed his secret project."

Pg 188: "Malcador the Sigilite was concerned. <snip>

Despite all of these distractions, it had become clear to Malcador that a genuine crisis was building. Warp storms were hampering interstellar communications and the Astronomican was weakening. Entire regions of the Imperium were cut off from Terra. The Warmaster Horus had not been in direct contact with him for weeks and Malcador had found it impossible to ascertain the whereabouts and welbeing of most of the other Space Marine Legions. <snip>

Many of the other Space Marine Primarchs had also been silent. Nothing had been heard from Guilliman, Leman Russ, Sanguinius and Lion El'Jonson since they embarked on their various missions*, and the fate of Magnus the Red was also not known. <snip>"

It goes on to talk of the warp flare investigated whilst the Imperial Fists were becalmed (_Flight of the Eisenstein_), the difficulty of communion with other primarchs and the fragmented/incompleted messages received from the Iron Warriors and Olympia. Only the Khan and some Word Bearers were nearby: Malcy resolves to deal primarily with the Astronomican. Then Malcador goes to speak to the Emperor...

Page 188: "The Astronmican was failing!

Malcador the Sigilite requested audience with the Emperor. In the dark bowls of the Palace vault they met. 

'Why do you disturb my labours, Sigilite? Outside of these dungeons I have given you powers of regent. I trust your judgement in all things. I do not have time for any more disturbances. What peril is there that you cannot deal with yourself?'

'Forigve me, my lord, but the Astronmican is failing. Is it your desire that now we should let its light be extinguished? Are your plans so far progressed that I need not to worry about so calamitous an event as this?'

'No, you are right to worry. It is too soon, far too soon. The light must be kept burning until I complete the project. *Damn, Magnus the Red!* Since his untimely interference, my psychic might is needed to stave off a grave threat to my work here. Even my vast power is not great enough to deal with this issue and fuel the Astronomican's beacon.'"

It goes on to outline that the Emperor has Malcador reconfigure the Astronomican to accept sacrificial not-soul-bound candidates. (Also that no-one's been soul bound for months; tons are waiting.) Many will be sacrificed, but it is sufficient to allow the Emperor to do what he needs. 

Page 196: "<Snip> The Warmaster voiced his concerns:

'The battle on Isstvan III was unforeseen and is causing us unnecessary delay. <snip>

'We fear the Emperor already knows. Magnus the Red has incurred his wrath with a sorcerous message."

I'm not sure I need to say more: it doesn't gel with TOD. Even from Terra's perspective. Warp shenanigans be damned, as it were!


----------



## Cowlicker16

I think this book put an end for the "Was the Emperor holding back" during the fight. Knowing he was going to die anyways would he not give it his all or is he still holding back trying to change the future that has been pre-ordained? Other then flaws already stated that I payed ne heed after this popped up. This is the big question i think.


----------



## brianizbrewtal

_'But you're going to die.'
'I know', said the Emperor._

holy shit that gave me shivers. That should have been the end of the book, but either way great read. Another victory for McNeil.


----------



## Team7

There was a section in the book where the Outcast Dead are discussing how long they had been in prison. Were these guys just being punished because of what they did wrong or were they captured traitors. I thought they had been in prison for 100yrs but the horus defection hadn't been going on that long.


----------



## Xisor

Team7: I recall vaguely the bit you mean, but as I was trusting there'd be more of it in the book (as you'll recall: there wasn't! *shakes fist* ) I forgot to take explicit note. 

With the rest of the book in context, I assume they'd been imprisoned soon after/almost immediately after Garro's message arrives via Rogal Dorn.

That said, I could be very wrong...!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Xisor said:


> No one thought it was odd that the book sets the chronology (from the perspective of people giving orders on Earth) that the news of the Isstvan Dropsite Massacre is known _before_ Magnus' message arrives and causes Bad Things, encouraging anyone to send the Wolves against Magnus?


Like others have said this was a fairly big hiccup from Mcneill. Especially considering it pretty much renders Magnus' warning pointless. Magnus sent his message after he realised Horus had been corrupted on Davin, so a while before Isstvan V. The subsequent Burning of Prospero was supposed to have occured almost simultaneously with the Drop Site Massacre. Why would Magnus have attempted to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal after Horus had already publically declared his rebellion and seven Legions been despatched to destroy him? Mcneill wrote _A Thousand Sons_ for Christ's sake, if this chronological error was unintentional (assuming it was) then this is unforgivable.

I generally enjoyed the book though, it does pose some interesting questions and leaves some loose ends. The tale of the Thunder Lord and the Wolf must surely continue at some point. I was wondering though, how did everyone interpret that Sarashina was able to learn _"the truth"_? An random accident brought about from the psychic-backlash of Magnus' warning? Something intentional on Magnus' or Chaos' part? How exactly was Magnus involved after this, did he commune with Atharva? These things are not clear in my mind personally.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Right, now that I've had a while to absorb what went on in TOD, I have a few questions. Maybe I'm being dim, and just missed the obvious answers, but anyway...

1. Why was Atharva arrested along with all the marines from the traitor legions? At this point the TS were still loyal and Magnus hadn't appeared to the Emperor yet, so his loyalty shouldn't have been in question until much later.

2. Tagore killing a fully armed and armoured Adeptus Custodes with his bare hands? Really? This was stretching things to their limit for me. Even in power armour he'd have had a job taking one down. As for punching through the breast plate of the finest armour available to the Imperium with his bare fist? Sorry Graham, I said "fuck that shit" to myself as I was reading it.

3. Why were the marines on Terra so long? In the final battle in the temple, it's stated that Subha and Asubha haven't been in battle in over a hundred years. I can understand having a small honour guard from each legion on Terra at any one time, but I'd have thought it would be on a rotational basis, not leaving marines to fester for decades.

4. When Kai finally sees the vision of the future, Sanguinius seems to sacrifice himself so that the Emperor will do what is needed to be done. 

"Bloody tears, a necessary death, the most infinitesimal crack in the most impenetrable armour. A life given willingly, a sacrifice on the altar of the future.
A death for a death. One to provoke the other..."

Also, "Once a haloed messenger of crimson perfection, now a broken sacrifice who guided the executioner's blade to his own heart."

We know Sang was partial to the odd spot of foresight, so did he see that the only way that the Emperor would kill his favourite son was to see how far Horus had fallen, far enough to kill his most angelic brother? 

5. How old would Babu Dhakal and Ghota be at this stage? In particular it seems that Dhakal was waging war in the Emperor's name for a century of more, and I'm not sure how long it was between the final battle of Unity were all the thunder warriors were supposed to have died, and the time of the novel.


----------



## TheReverend

Khorne's Fist said:


> Right, now that I've had a while to absorb what went on in TOD, I have a few questions. Maybe I'm being dim, and just missed the obvious answers, but anyway...
> 1. Why was Atharva arrested along with all the marines from the traitor legions? At this point the TS were still loyal and Magnus hadn't appeared to the Emperor yet, so his loyalty shouldn't have been in question until much later.
> Good point, maybe he was arrested by association?
> 
> 2. Tagore killing a fully armed and armoured Adeptus Custodes with his bare hands? Really? This was stretching things to their limit for me. Even in power armour he'd have had a job taking one down. As for punching through the breast plate of the finest armour available to the Imperium with his bare fist? Sorry Graham, I said "fuck that shit" to myself as I was reading it.
> I agree, it's pretty unbelievable, especially as he was taken down later on in the book when he was armed.
> 
> 3. Why were the marines on Terra so long? In the final battle in the temple, it's stated that Subha and Asubha haven't been in battle in over a hundred years. I can understand having a small honour guard from each legion on Terra at any one time, but I'd have thought it would be on a rotational basis, not leaving marines to fester for decades.
> I thought they were there representing the Legions on Ullanor? but you're right, leaving them so long sounds weird. But then, if you read the Ragnar series there is a Space Wolf honour guard on Terra and some of those guys have been there the best part of a century also. Separating marines from thier chapter/legion always ends in then tears though, in every single story where it happens they either turn traitor or start questioning things!
> 
> 4. When Kai finally sees the vision of the future, Sanguinius seems to sacrifice himself so that the Emperor will do what is needed to be done.
> that's how I read it too, as if he knew he couldn't win but knew what he had to do so that the Emporer could do his thing. I guess that was part of isgift of foresight?
> 
> 5. How old would Babu Dhakal and Ghota be at this stage? In particular it seems that Dhakal was waging war in the Emperor's name for a century of more, and I'm not sure how long it was between the final battle of Unity were all the thunder warriors were supposed to have died, and the time of the novel.
> I think the Heresy occured just over 200 years after the Emporer unified Terra so those guys would be the best part of 350-400 years old. Which is still pretty old!! Even though they weren't designed to live forever.


Rev


----------



## Angel of Blood

Khorne's Fist said:


> 1. Why was Atharva arrested along with all the marines from the traitor legions? At this point the TS were still loyal and Magnus hadn't appeared to the Emperor yet, so his loyalty shouldn't have been in question until much later.


Like TheReverend said, i'm guessing he was incarcerated by association, there were other astartes imprisoned aswell from loyalist legions. The Outcast Dead persuers mention at some point that it was interesting they only freed astartes from the traitor legions, implying the rest of the imprisoned astartes were not.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> 1. Why was Atharva arrested along with all the marines from the traitor legions? At this point the TS were still loyal and Magnus hadn't appeared to the Emperor yet, so his loyalty shouldn't have been in question until much later.


As _AoB_ said, the book implied that several Astartes from Legions that ultimately remained loyal were also imprisoned. At that point in time it wasn't clear exactly where each Legion stood in terms of loyalty. I wouldn't have been surprised if all Astartes (apart from those of the VII Legion) present on Terra were detained or at the very least kept under strict surveillance - despite there being no lore whatsoever to support such a claim. 

There are many more plausable explanations however given that Atharva was a Thousand Son. Perhaps he disobeyed the Nikaean edict to some degree (despite the fact that pretty much every other Legion did as well) or was considered dangerous (more-so) following Nikaea? Who knows. But the fact that there were other Astartes belonging to Legions who ultimately remained loyal that were detained doesn't make this such of an issue.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

> I agree, it's pretty unbelievable, especially as he was taken down later on in the book when he was armed.


And an unaugmented human gave him a run for his money.

I don't know about anyone else, but by the end of the novel I had the distinct impression that while this novel has the feel of a McNeil novel, it also gave me a feeleing that he had supervised someone else who was writing it. It's McNeil's work, but diluted somehow... Can't explain it any better than that. Overall a 6/10 for me.

Roll on _Deliverance Lost_, even if it is Gav Thorpe.


----------



## Xisor

Khorne's Fist said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but by the end of the novel I had the distinct impression that while this novel has the feel of a McNeil novel, it also gave me a feeleing that he had supervised someone else who was writing it. It's McNeil's work, but diluted somehow... Can't explain it any better than that.


I spent the bulk of the book thinking I wasn't reading a (near-)final draft. I'm still not convinced. So I sorta know what you mean.

I'd put it down to a dropped ball. Somehow off his game. Next book'll be up to the usual (or better) standard, I'm confident.


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## mal310

Upon reflection I feel its by far the worst HH book I've read. I've always enjoyed Graham's HH work and loved his previous books. However The Outcast Dead is such a mess (IMO) that its difficult to believe that its even written by the same author. There is a frankly unforgivable messing with the chronology that has annoyed a great many people and as far as I can see its generally received a very poor reception (admittedly some people like it, although some people like Jeremy Kyle's 'program' so there you go). Its a shame because it certainly had some potential. However it read almost like a first draft. There are topics which should have been explained and explored which were not. There more were basic errors on top of the big one. The secret message is also a massive massive let down, its pathetic. I was really looking forward to reading about something new creative and unexpected which led to events panning out they way they did or potentially saving the whole Emperors dream if it had gone a certain way but tragically didn't because of events in the book. What we got however was a rehash of something that should never ever EVER have been known about prior to its actual happening!!!!! It makes its actual occurrence incomprehensible and nonsensical as well as destroying much of the tragedy of that moment. The Emperor is also yet again portrayed as a bit of a dick which I hate. I want to see him get some love! The setting should be tragic because it all went wrong for this great hero. Its not tragic if it all went wrong for some prat! 

What I also find difficult to understand is why Graham was not pulled up about the continuity situation by the editors at Black Library or even the other authors in the HH pool. Its just not good enough that this kind of rubbish gets published. They should realise that they have a potentially humungous gold mine with this series and they need to cherish and protect it. Not allow it to be diminished and polluted with half baked stories that take away from rather than add to the story.


----------



## Baltar

mal310 said:


> What we got however was a rehash of something that should never ever EVER have been known about prior to its actual happening!!!!!


That is not true.

People DID know that it was going to happen - certainly the Emperor and Sanguinius did, which is why the sacrifice is important.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

not quite finished it yet but a few things that seem odd to me is that the custodes got owned like they were nothing and the 1k son refering to space wolves as vlka fenyrka and kai seeming know that name like it was common place yet i thought from PB it was a pretty exclusive tag only used by fenrisians.

on the custodes issue, im really not liking how they are being portrayed as nothing special and keep getting systematically dealt with or tricked like they were bumbling idiots. valdor aint running as tight a ship as he likes to think he does  (probs because he could be horus's traitor within maybe)


----------



## Baltar

Unknown Primarch said:


> not quite finished it yet but a few things that seem odd to me is that the custodes got owned like they were nothing and the 1k son refering to space wolves as vlka fenyrka and kai seeming know that name like it was common place yet i thought from PB it was a pretty exclusive tag only used by fenrisians.
> 
> on the custodes issue, im really not liking how they are being portrayed as nothing special and keep getting systematically dealt with or tricked like they were bumbling idiots. valdor aint running as tight a ship as he likes to think he does  (probs because he could be horus's traitor within maybe)


I thought they did pretty well (the custodes).


----------



## Angel of Blood

Well theres not alot any being can do when unexpectedly and inexplicably shot at point blank range with a plasma gun from one of your supposedly loyal and no doubt highly vetted troops. As for Uttam, he was already noted as having his response time to be below front line duties due to a previous injury. But even then i wasn't all that happy with Tagore beating him, i mean for fuck sakes, Tagore was unarmed and unarmoured. Uttam was fully armoured and had his Guardian Spear, which Tagore somehow managed to snap in half at the very start of the fight. As for Tagore actually managing to punch through his armour and chest cavity in one punch....well it just left me a bit open mouthed. Saturnalia was another mixed fight for me, at first he's quite easily holding his own against the twins, then he managed to kill one, and i have to add that i let out a massive sigh of relief when he shot him, to that point i was finding the Custodians complete lack of utilising the bolter part of the Spear shocking, across all novels. So he's now one on one, having been almost comfortably holding out against two, but then Asubha proceeds to utterly cripple him in a few second. Now i know he was enraged at seeing his twin killed, but even so.

All the other instances of Custodes i'm fine with. Aquillon and co being killed by the Gal Vorbak wasn't much of an issue for me (apart from how anti-climactic Aquillons death was), they were after all outnumbered and facing possessed astartes. And Vendetha really went to town on the Word Bearers before being killed.

Other than that the Custodes are alright for the most part, though i would like to see some more kick-arse displays, i'm looking at you Amon and Haedo!


----------



## Angel of Blood

Oh and on another note that just baffles me. Why on earth didn't Atharva have a Sister of Silence or blank posted by his cell at all times. How were they so stupid as to not cancel out his powers, especially a psyker from the Thousand Sons of all legions. Just yet another way i think the novel let down.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh and on another note that just baffles me. Why on earth didn't Atharva have a Sister of Silence or blank posted by his cell at all times. How were they so stupid as to not cancel out his powers, especially a psyker from the Thousand Sons of all legions. Just yet another way i think the novel let down.


I don't know why he was included with the traitors at all, and why he was so desperate to join the traitors at Istvaan. At this stage, even though Magnus had messed up, the TS were still not declared traitors. He had no reason to head for the rebels, or side with the other escapees. 

Also, he really seems to be the best of all the TS, possibly giving Ahriman a run for his money by the way he was portrayed, and yet he has been pretty much exiled to Terra. Why?


----------



## Unknown Primarch

i think maybe if abnett had done a proper job with PB and had it all about the attack on prospero from the wolves and custodes/sisters point of view we might have a better appreciation of what these warriors can actually do but just from what ive seen the emperor would have been better just to have a legion of astartes guard him. 
hell, a legion of grey-esque warriors might have been alot better in the webway compared to what the custodes are gonna be doing as if they can get owned by a standard astartes then what the hell can they do against hordes of daemons. 
the only explaination is that the emperor always sends out the shit custodes for the dogs jobs and keeps the elite one for more pressing issues maybe.

and on this crusader host thing, i thought it was mentioned that it wasnt just traitor legion marines that were imprisoned and giving the timeline of their imprisonment could they have something to do with when the lost legions were purged?


----------



## bobss

Unknown Primarch said:


> i think maybe if abnett had done a proper job with PB and had it all about the attack on prospero from the wolves and custodes/sisters point of view


Does anyone even remotely care about this semi-rotten can of worms?

''_A proper job_''. Get that shit out of here for the last time.

If you had any appreciation for literature you wouldn't spew such BS.


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## Baltar

No need to get heated.

Just step back and remember that opinions are perfectly capable of being wrong (contrary to popular belief).

While I agree that PB was garbage, I do not see the issue with the Custodes.

They are the ultimate guardian (and they are solitary if not totally magnificent). The marine is the ultimate battlefield soldier (and they work together fighting in groups). Two TOTALLY different things. Why does one *need* to own the other in a straight up contest? Why do you NEED an author to point it out for you?

Try looking at it from another view:

In my head, if I put one Custodian against one marine, the Custodian smashes him to bits.

If I put 5 Custodians against 5 marines - everything changes completely.

Ponder on it.

EDIT:

To add to that, making it relevant to this discussion (and it is very relevant) - McNeill did an awesome job in highlighting why all of that is CRUCIAL.

The battle between Saturnalia and the World Eaters shows why. A Custidian is a solitary guardian who has loyalty only to the Emperor. The Space Marines have loyalty to each other. Having loyalty to anyone else other than whomever it is you are sworn to protect is not necessarily a good trait to give when creating a super-bodyguard. Likewise, making battlefield soldiers loyal to nobody but themselves as an individual would be severely detrimental.

If you spend time thinking about it, McNeill did a good job with the Custodes.

Okay, so there are some misgivings about the relative one-on-one capabilities of a marine vs a Custodian. Why care? It has been shown in other books that a Custodian is more than capable of taking a marine apart in a one-on-one scenario, and that in McNeill's book there are reasons why, for example, a particularly hardened (and implanted) World Eater managed to demolish a fully armoured Custodian.

This is not a reason to be hating on a book.


----------



## MontytheMighty

1 average custodian vs. 1 average space marine, the custodian has the advantage, but I wouldn't say the custodian smashes the marine to bits 

ADB has pointed out (on this forum, I believe) that the super awesome custodians in The First Heretic are Companions (the elite within the First Circle, equivalent to an honour guard full of Abaddons, Luciuses, and Sigismunds)

In Blood Games, Abnett writes that "no one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes", but he also writes that "generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases".

Now, in Outcast Dead, an unarmoured unarmed space marine kills an armoured armed custodian whose reaction time is just below the minimum for frontline duty 

In my opinion, if we try to reconcile all of the above as consistent with each other, the conclusion we should reach is that the _average_ custodian has a moderate advantage over the _average_ space marine (if you threw them into the ring, the custodian would win maybe 6 out of 10 bouts, it wouldn't be a 10 - 0 stomp)


----------



## Baltar

You're absolutely right.

Which is why I think that the fighting differences aren't what people should focus on. Their interaction with *each other* is way more important. Space marines and Custodians are so different in what they do and say that it's much more interesting to focus on that than it is to focus on how they would turn out if they fought one-on-one...

The reason I say 'smash to bits' is because when it comes to marines or custodians, there is no 'I only just beat him' - the death is always bloody and horrendously violent 

To add to that:

Someone on here somewhere (I don't remember who) complained that the Custodes didn't use their bolters enough. WHY would you complain about that?

That's like complaining that a Jedi isn't using his blaster rifle often enough, or something..... Seriously.. wtf...


----------



## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> You're absolutely right.
> Which is why I think that the fighting differences aren't what people should focus on. Their interaction with *each other* is way more important. Space marines and Custodians are so different in what they do and say that it's much more interesting to focus on that than it is to focus on how they would turn out if they fought one-on-one...
> The reason I say 'smash to bits' is because when it comes to marines or custodians, there is no 'I only just beat him' - the death is always bloody and horrendously violent


I also think the lions and wolves analogy is somewhat apt

now I'm not saying the difference in power level between a space marine and a custodian is like that between a lion and wolf (a wolf has no hope whatsoever against a lion), but it highlights that space marines are excellent team players whereas custodians are excellent single combatants...
but consider this: wolves have a much higher hunting success rate than big cats do because wolves work as a team


----------



## Baltar

Yes, exactly.

However, consider that a Custodian is not a hunter, and there you have the answer. It's a guardian, and if I were to have to choose something to guard my house, either one lion or one wolf, I'd fucking choose the lion (actually, I'd have a tiger, because it's way bigger, but you get the idea).


----------



## Angel of Blood

Baltar said:


> Someone on here somewhere (I don't remember who) complained that the Custodes didn't use their bolters enough. WHY would you complain about that?
> 
> That's like complaining that a Jedi isn't using his blaster rifle often enough, or something..... Seriously.. wtf...


Believe that would be me. And because it makes perfect sense. I appreicate the dramatic as much as everyone else and love a good duel. But in the case of Custodes i would prefer they act as you would expect. They don't care about honour, warrior codes or entiqutte. Their sole job is to protect the Emperor and enact his will, you expect them to do use any means to take their target out, especially as Custodians jobs are usually very important and have no room for taking risks or the chance they might fail. So when they have the opportunity like Saturnalia and Vendatha had to fire, they should take it. On both the occasions when the two afore mentioned Custodes shot their targets i thought it was fucking cool and made for great moments.


----------



## Baltar

Yeah, you're right. It certainly was cool.

I believe in the previous book featuring them, there was plenty of shooting and the reloading action was suitably awesome.

The guardian spear is essentially a stick of awesome.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> ADB has pointed out (on this forum, I believe) that the super awesome custodians in The First Heretic are Companions (the elite within the First Circle, equivalent to an honour guard full of Abaddons, Luciuses, and Sigismunds)


I think that might be a slight misquote (or someone else said it, maybe?), as I'm not entirely sure I said that myself. It's not that it's wrong, it's just that I don't remember saying anything like that in those terms.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I think that might be a slight misquote (or someone else said it, maybe?), as I'm not entirely sure I said that myself. It's not that it's wrong, it's just that I don't remember saying anything like that in those terms.


well, admittedly I paraphrased another forum member who had most likely paraphrased you

EDIT: dug out the quotes and apparently I misread and conflated two quotes



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.





oiad said:


> ADB has already stated on this board that Vendatha (and likely the entire Custodian cadre from that novel) were very exceptional by the standards of the Custodes. Imo, they were at least Companions in terms of ranking.


so I guess the most accurate statement would be "the custodians in The First Heretic are elite/exceptional even by custodian standards"?


----------



## Unknown Primarch

bobss said:


> Does anyone even remotely care about this semi-rotten can of worms?
> 
> ''_A proper job_''. Get that shit out of here for the last time.
> 
> If you had any appreciation for literature you wouldn't spew such BS.


are you kidding?! what made PB such a work of art like you seem to think it is? 

when you look at the book after striping away all the fancy stuff he did in designing a new image, so to speak, with the space wolves the actual story is on par with say BotA or nemesis in its boreish tone. 

id say if abnett felt he had to have someone looking in on the wolves to be able to analyse their character why not have the custodions and sisters be the focus and same with how the wolves could have shown their thinking brains in analysing the custodes and sisters in battle thus getting back to my point of finally giving us abit more to think about when getting back to the 'who would win' scenario. for me that would have made it more of a literary masterpiece that it could have been. 

but to make a masterpiece in HH you have to be writing about a really interesting plot and turning point in HH and PB just doesnt cut it. who cares about hawser and what will he ever add to HH. at least with kai zulane he was doing something important and maybe a little with john grammaticus as he seem to have abit of insight into the emperor before the imperium.

novels like fulgrim, mechanicum, thousand sons and the first heretic have had a real point to them and were great topics but PB is a book you dont have to read to stay in the loop of whats going on in the HH.


----------



## Angel of Blood

It was a brilliant peice of literature, say what you want about plot, but writing wise, it was written far above the normal BL standard(and thats saying something!). As for being able to miss it? Well its pretty damn important to know that the feud between the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons was all planned by chaos since the start and that they were always set up to fight each other(though they were meant to completely destroy each other). That the VI legion were standing by at Nikea ready to take out Magnus and his legion at the drop of a hat, which goes to show even further how shrewd and calculating(not to mention ruthless) The Emperor/Malcador/Valdor were.

The Outcast Dead did nothing to further the plot, the message was just a little anti-climactic and it was full of bad points such as the Magnus timeline fiasco.


----------



## MontytheMighty

PB was mediocre...it was only readable because Dan had written it

you have to be a SW fan to like the "Emperor's executioners" idea
the whole concept smacks of SW [email protected]


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## Unknown Primarch

Angel of Blood said:


> It was a brilliant peice of literature, say what you want about plot, but writing wise, it was written far above the normal BL standard(and thats saying something!). As for being able to miss it? Well its pretty damn important to know that the feud between the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons was all planned by chaos since the start and that they were always set up to fight each other(though they were meant to completely destroy each other). That the VI legion were standing by at Nikea ready to take out Magnus and his legion at the drop of a hat, which goes to show even further how shrewd and calculating(not to mention ruthless) The Emperor/Malcador/Valdor were.
> 
> The Outcast Dead did nothing to further the plot, the message was just a little anti-climactic and it was full of bad points such as the Magnus timeline fiasco.


thats the thing, the plot wasnt well written were you always had the sense of how the two legions were gonna end up killing each other. it was about hawser finding out who mindlocked him and a few odds and ends then abit at the end about nikeea and that was kinda it. 
i never got any sense of how all through the book the two legions were intertwined in destiny and certain events lead to what happened. any mention of these issues seemed tacked on at the end just to rap up the story just to meet the long overdue deadline. 

that was my sense of that book. as without cast dead, which seemed to follow a similar path plot wise, we always knew the message was gonna fall into either the emperors or horus's hand and that was basically what drove the story to a decent enough ending and like ive said should happen with HH novels, give us a answer to long asked questions and open up another twenty years of asking a whole load of others. while not epic, the outcast dead had a point to the plot that got resolved but paved the way for all kinds of repurcussions while hawsers plot just dragged on and quickly got rapped up quickly at the end to no point what so ever to the greater scheme of things 40k.
i just hope a dreadnought squashed him by accident while abit groggy after waking up from the long sleep. :grin:


----------



## Baltar

Lol, resorting to claims of 'great literature' (which is a load of bollocks) in defense of PB makes me laugh.

You know it must be bad when all that can be said for it is to start going on about how 'well written' it is. Let's just ingnore the boring plot, the treacle-slow pace of the book, the idiosyncratic characters designed purely to make the SW seem even remotely interesting (which failed miserably, by the way), and the total fanboyness of the whole thing.

Yes. Let's forget all of that, because it's 'well written'.

Gimme a break. Space puppy uberfans are almost as bad as Ultrasmurf fans. Just because the book was based on the SW, they won't accept faithful criticism of the book. Combine that with an equal lack of resolve when it comes to anyone daring to criticise Abnett, and you basically have a book that is impossible to discuss or make any kind of judgement on whatsoever, simply due to fanboy irrationality.

The fans may aswell just forget talking about it altogether and repeat the following whenever anyone mentions it: "Omg it has SW, SW are awesome. Omg it has Abnett, Abnett is awesome. Blah blah blah. *dribble*."


----------



## Angel of Blood

For the record, not a SW fan, i detest the other Space Wolf novels. 

As for the Outcast Dead, did you seriously ever think Kais message would get to Horus? I had no doubt in my mind it would never leave Terra.


----------



## Baltar

Well, since we already know that Sanguinius knew what was going to happen, then we either had to assume the following:

1. He only knows because he gets to know of the message.

2. He can see the future.

Before the Outcast Dead, I had assumed 2. simply because other sources had hinted at some sort of ability of foresight. Since that power seems even beyond the best psykers, then we can rule out 2. and say that he must get know about the message. Since that's the case, I always assumed from the start that Horus would never get to know what was going to happen.


----------



## Xisor

I'm coming down on the 'PB is a good book' side of things. It's well written, it's interesting, it present unique* insights and gives a fairly solid outlook on everything whilst being interesting to boot.

I'm hesitant to call it 'great literature', but I'll certainly agree that it's a ton more 'literary' than the bulk of so-called 'good books' BLP makes. 

"You know it must be bad when all that can be said for it is to start going on about how 'well written' it is. "

What an horrendous little world you must live in, Baltar. If it's not racing along at 100mph it's not a good book?

I think you're confusing 'good' with 'what I want'.


* Unique at least insofar as the Wolves being executioners. I know it came up in _A Thousand Sons_, but it strikes me that, with PB due to have been released before ATS, that the executioner bit comes from PB/Dan, we just managed to see it first in ATS.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Xisor said:


> I know it came up in _A Thousand Sons_, but it strikes me that, with PB due to have been released before ATS, that the executioner bit comes from PB/Dan, we just managed to see it first in ATS.


I'm fairly sure ATS was supposed to come out first, if only a month before PB. I think you'd have lost a lot of context if you read PB first, especially in scenes like the council of Nikea. In ATS you get the whole picture of what happened there, and then in PB you get waht was going on behind the scenes. I don't think it would have worked the other way around.


----------



## Baltar

Xisor said:


> I'm coming down on the 'PB is a good book' side of things. It's well written, it's interesting, it present unique* insights and gives a fairly solid outlook on everything whilst being interesting to boot.
> 
> I'm hesitant to call it 'great literature', but I'll certainly agree that it's a ton more 'literary' than the bulk of so-called 'good books' BLP makes.
> 
> "You know it must be bad when all that can be said for it is to start going on about how 'well written' it is. "
> 
> What an horrendous little world you must live in, Baltar. If it's not racing along at 100mph it's not a good book?
> 
> I think you're confusing 'good' with 'what I want'.
> 
> 
> * Unique at least insofar as the Wolves being executioners. I know it came up in _A Thousand Sons_, but it strikes me that, with PB due to have been released before ATS, that the executioner bit comes from PB/Dan, we just managed to see it first in ATS.


Actually, I think PB was a book that I judged completely without my views being at all tainted by 'what I want' - simply because when it comes to the SW, I'm totally indifferent.

I don't mind a slow pace, but I'd like it to get somewhere. For example, I thought that Legion was particularly slow, but I got over it because it didn't just 'get somewhere' - it was like an asteroid arriving at Earth's surface at 17km/s.

PB, on the other hand, just dragged. It wasn't simply slow - it dragged its feet, and it was actually boring. I hesitate to use the word boring, because almost nothing *really* is boring, simply because for something to be not boring anymore then all you have to do is take an interest. I'll admit - I could take no interest in this book. Nothing enticed me into doing so, all the way through; it was cold and drab, and left me unsatisfied.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way when it comes to this book.

Being 'well written' changes none of that at all. Competence isn't in question. I'm pretty sure (absolutely certain, in fact) that one BL book I just read was not that well written at all (and was FULL of spelling errors), but I loved it.

'Well written' really has shag all to do with it, in my opinion. Going down that line of discussion indicates to me that fans really are scraping the barrel for something good to say about it.

PS: Anyone else just read a fairly recent BL book with a crapton of spelling mistakes/other errors? :biggrin: Did you also think it was awesome?


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Baltar said:


> PS: Anyone else just read a fairly recent BL book with a crapton of spelling mistakes/other errors? :biggrin: Did you also think it was awesome?


In the last couple of weeks I've read the ebook versions of _The outcast Dead, Salvation's Reach, Courage and Honour_ and _Wulfrik_, and all of them were totally littered with editorial mistakes, so much so it got damned annoying. BL works have always had way above average mistakes like this, but it's getting ridiculous at this stage. In another discussion on this Dead.Blue.Clown tried to say BL had no more mistakes than the average publishing house, but to anybody who reads a lot of their books this is patently untrue.


----------



## Baltar

I have noticed the odd ONE or so mistake in BL novels in the past (others might have been there, but I didn't notice them). Nothing wrong with the odd mistake here and there.

However, the particular novel I'm referring to is packed with errors, and I think it's indicative of BL turning into a book churning factory.


----------



## Xisor

Aye, the last couple of books from BLP have seen massively increased typos. _The Outcast Dead_, _Nocturne_ and _The Red Duke_ particularly.

(TOD was broadly terrible, even without the mistakes. With them, it reads like a first draft sent to the publishers.)

"Well written" means more than just well formed sentences. It means sentences, paragraphs, passages, prose, dialogue and concepts which are done 'well' amongst other things. The pacing in PB was fine. Except for the unnecessarily long time spent wandering about in the snow for 50 pages, it moved along; a thriller, an exploration, a mystery.

PB was supposed to be out a month before ATS. Sections of PB will have been revised/changed somewhat thanks to Dan having had 'thoughts' on ATS in the intervening year, possibly even just by discussion and 'new stuff' being brought up.

'Well written' also affects characters and plot.

If you're to criticise 'well written', criticise it not being at all specific. Too vague, not 'scraping the barrel'. That I could happily get aboard with.

Again, the 'what I want' side shines through in your response, Baltar: you didn't find it interesting. None of the topics interested you? TOD would've been exactly what I wanted...except that I don't want Mary Sues, inexplicably superb individuals, chronology switcheroos, rehashes of the setup from BftA almost wholesale and turned up to 11 perhaps even some trite pseudo-poignant moments which, when thought about, devalue the thing they're being poignant about.

Yet, in principle, TOD should've been a perfect book for me. Mystery-thriller set on Terra, not featuring 'main cast superstars' like first captains, Primarchs and so forth. That should've been excellent; it could have been written precisely for me. But then we get 'the best' astropath, a super Thousand Son, etc etc.

TOD wasn't so well written and was all over the place. But the bare concept? Yes, it very much interests me. (Indeed, I raced through it.)


----------



## Baltar

Well, put it this way, I didn't enjoy PB. Simple as that. Barebones reason? I agree that it added NOTHING to the HH series. It came off as, and pretty much is, just an excuse to sell-out to SW fans, and in many SW fans opinion it didn't even manage that very well.

There are those who are happy to see the SW portrayed as something other than a ginger-haired celtic drunk in power armour, and there are those who are disappointed with that because they wanted a bolter-porn and chainaxe fest.

Either way, it was just a 'check out the SW' book, and IMO barely registers on the HH storyline.

TOD? I liked it. I'll admit I liked it because I do like to hear more about the people we know little about. Custodes in particular. The Emperor. In this case, the Astropaths and Navigators...

The one person I am fucking SICK of hearing from is Rogal Dorn. Damn. What a fucking lame ass character for EVERY appearance he's ever made, and by whichever author. Maybe all the authors made a pact before writing to make him seem like a boring dick head. Who knows. I hope they change the story and make him get blown to bits, just for the hell of it.


----------



## Xisor

The trouble, for me, is that all the excellence of what we hear of the Emperor, the Custodes, the Astropaths and the Navigators is...abysmal in TOD.

The Emperor is a non-entity whose main characteristic is 'enigmatic'. 
The Custdoes...are incompetent mooks.
The Astropaths... are ran by three forgetable nobodies who don't have much insight into anything. Gregor had a bit of a thing to him, but then it turns out he was obsessed with...the conceit of the book.
The Navigator...could have been straight out of 40k. 

I'd love to see and hear more stuff on these factions. But it irritates me no end to see it so unambitious, lacklustre and shoddy. Especially compared to how nicely done _A Thousand Sons_ was. 

As for Rogal Dorn: I somewhat concur. We should be seeing him all the time, but he should be _bloody interesting_. He's at the centre of it all. He should be stealing the show. Ad yet he's...not. I'd much prefer they just (and you might not like this): *write him well*.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yeah i'm afraid i'm going to jump on the 'Rogal Dorn is a boring prick' wagon aswell. I mean seriously, what the hell. How can someone so intimately involved in some of the biggest events of the Heresy be such a boring tool.


----------



## increaso

It just goes to show how different fans have different tastes.

I loved Dorn in both The Lightning Tower and The Last Remembrancer. We've not seen such introspection from any other Primarch yet.

ATS and PB are two interesting and inextricably linked novels. I don't agree that PB 'added NOTHING to the HH series'. Nor do I think it is a product that purely exists to promote SW fanboyism.

Indeed, when I first read ATS I couldn't help but think that the SW were freakin' awesome. 

By the ending of PB it was clear that the SW's downfall was rooted in the same sort of hubris that Magnus suffered from in ATS. By the end of PB the players got played.

I think that ATS and PB are naturally compared and ATS comes out on top for most because it follows the collected visions story, whilst PB does something different.

PB has added quite a bit to the lore and HH arc as a whole. We can see how far back the planning of Chaos went/pre-determined fate, that the SW's got played, that the SW's pretend to be savages, we have further repetition of theme re: eye of aversion and other things.

The only problem, in my opinion, with PB is the title and the blurb having little relevance to the actual story lodged between the front and back cover. I am, however, glad that Dan Abnett didn't just do the Prospero battle from the SW pov (/yawn).

I am generally satisfied with the HH series so far.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

increaso said:


> I am generally satisfied with the HH series so far.


Unfortunately I can't agree. The only ones I found truely worthy of the series since _Fulgrim_ are ATS, FH and PB(admitted SW fanboy). A few of the others were good, but haven't come near the heights of the first five books. Some of them are actually so very badly written I wouldn't use them for toilet paper.


----------



## Baltar

I love the HH series. The early books were the absolute NUTS. So epic it blew my cotton socks off.

Then there was a gap of non-epicness, mainly due to books about the DA which I couldn't give a shit about. Legion, again, couldn't give a shit about. etc etc. Battle for the Abyss, which was soooooo lame....

THEN First Heretic came out and completely renewed the epicness of the HH series. It was the much needed shake up.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Just to note _Xisor_: _A Thousand Sons_ was due out a month before _Prospero Burns_ not the other way around - and that was before _Prospero Burns_ was put back due to Abnett's illness.


----------



## Xisor

My memory contradicts that, but I can't find anything to back me up (or disprove me). Vexing, I don't like finding out I'm all wrong!


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Khorne's Fist said:


> In another discussion on this Dead.Blue.Clown tried to say BL had no more mistakes than the average publishing house, but to anybody who reads a lot of their books this is patently untrue.


Very weaselly language, dude. Firstly, I didn't try to say anything. I said it. And - when I said it - it was true. You can't use something I said months/years ago and apply it to a completely different standard now. There've been dozens/hundreds of books since then. I have no idea if standards have changed, or recent ones have slipped through the gaps, or whatever else.

I've recently read a book on Buddhism; George R.R. Martin's _A Clash of Kings_; and _The King's Buccaneer _by Raymond E. Feist. All of them have several typos and editing errors - certainly the same amount (or more) than the last few BL novels I read. 

Occam's Razor (and common sense) suggest that it's no different to any other publishing house. Whereas a biased correlation from reading many books from one publisher in a relatively short span of time (which rarely happens in other circumstances) from anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise. You don't read Penguin book after Penguin book in the same way you read 40K book after 40K book - people go through several novels from the very same publisher in a way they don't do with non-licensed fiction. That makes it easy to spot correlations that obviously won't show up elsewhere. That shouldn't even need explaining, really. You made the point yourself - you're reading a lot of their books. Most people don't get the same level of repeated exposure to one publisher, to the point of making the same correlations. Do people make the same point about Harper Collins or Penguin? It'd be very, very difficult, since they're producing infinitely more books, and you're reading far fewer of them - as well as simply not identifying them by the publisher.

There's a difference between defending something just for the sake of it, and seeing why patterns emerge and might seem more notable than they are in biased circumstances. In this instance, it's patently easier to spot recurring trends in one small publishing house you read a significant chunk of output from, than a huge one that you don't, and that's not really up for debate. That makes _comparative_ anecdotal evidence biased and unreliable. Again, a simple fact.

That said, I don't know. I don't read everything (or even most of what) BL produces these days. I just know, as a voracious reader, I don't see more editorial screwups in a BL novel than I do elsewhere. I'm sure there are exceptions. There always are.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Sorry mate, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this. In the last year or so I've reread all the Wheel of Time books in anticipation of the final instalment, gone through all the Song of Ice and Fire books, Joe Abercrombie's 5 fantastic novels, and dozens of other works, and in all those thousands of pages, I never came across anything close to the level of errors as I did in the last few 400 page BL novels I've read. As I said , I've been reading them as ebooks, so maybe that has something to do with it, though I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the quality of the work,(well, most of it) I wouldn't be spending considerable chunks of my dwindling pay packet on them if I thought they weren't worth it, but they really do need to tighten up on their editing. If we, the casual readers can spot the mistakes straight off, what are the editors doing? Not a whole lot it seems.


----------



## Baltar

I think you could possibly be underestimating the colossal job of editing even one single book, never mind dozens at any given time...

I wrote a 130 page A4 document once, font 11, which I considered to be pretty large for me, and I must have literally read the whole thing, very slowly, a sentence at a time, for weeks and weeks on end, and there are still errors (although probably not with the spelling). Then it was checked by two other people who did pretty much the same thing - and I do doubt that it's still totally 'perfect' in an editorial sense.


----------



## forkmaster

I might have added this earlier in the discussion but I will add here again.  Im kinda blessed as a forreigner so I dont spot these mistakes. ^^ 

About the book, I think unfortunately PB was boring in paste BUT the insight to see how the Wolves workes was indeed important. So the insight was giving, the same goes for Legion. TOD greatest flaw was the timeline mistakes, but it did clear up some earlier questions asked; "Why were NL apart of the second wave to Issvan?" and some further hints here and there, one about the Wolves being sent to "deal" with another Legion in the past.

Ending was a bit climatic and aruptly ended, but it was also a bit "So the Emperor did know?" Interesting but not something that lived up to my expectations. Then we have the battles and characters. The Thunder-Warrior who managed to escape without any even trying to stop him or that we didnt get too much into the actual Outcast characters and who they were.


----------



## Baltar

For me, 'how they know' (at least Sanguinius - the Emperor is a different story, slightly) is a big, big question.

After all of the Magnus bashing, it seems that using powerful psyker powers in order to see the future is off the cards. That, to me, lets us know that Sanguinius probably doesn't have those powers - which means that the Emperor must tell him what is going to happen before they teleport to Horus's barge.

It also means that, definitively, Horus doesn't know (which is important because he may have acted differently if he did.)

Did they need a whole novel to get the message across? No, maybe not, but I liked the book.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I always thought Sanguinius was said to have the power of foresight, in the sense of visions, ones that he doesn't choose to have, much like Kurze only not quite so violent and depressing(granted he potentially saw his own death), unlike Magnus who actively used his powers deliberatly. Not like the Emperor can say "Hey Sang, quit with the visions shit yo! Its messing with my style".


----------



## Baltar

Yeah, maybe.

Perhaps that is still the case. TOD puts the question forward, I guess...


----------



## Angel of Blood

Would be a rather awkward conversation if they both knew...

Sanguinius - "So i know i'm gonna die if i go up there"
Emperor - "Indeed"
Sanguinius - "And you also know i'm going to die if i go up there....."
Emperor - "Yes, indeed"
Sanguinius - "Soooooo, just one question..."
Emperor - "Yes my son?"
Sanguinius "WHY THE FUCK AM I GOING UP THERE!?!?"


----------



## MontytheMighty

I have noticed an oddly high rate of error in _recent_ BL books

I'm OK with awkward structure here and there...but frequent misspelling and wrong words is quite annoying


----------



## Baltar

Angel of Blood said:


> Would be a rather awkward conversation if they both knew...
> 
> Sanguinius - "So i know i'm gonna die if i go up there"
> Emperor - "Indeed"
> Sanguinius - "And you also know i'm going to die if i go up there....."
> Emperor - "Yes, indeed"
> Sanguinius - "Soooooo, just one question..."
> Emperor - "Yes my son?"
> Sanguinius "WHY THE FUCK AM I GOING UP THERE!?!?"


Lol, yes.

Although, as much as I'd like to see that, I think it will be more like:

Emperor: "No."

Sanguinius: "Let me go. You can't do this alone."

Emperor: : "No, you can't."

Sanguinius: "I have to talk to him. I can make him see what he's doing."

Emperor: "No, you can't. If you go, you will die."

Sanguinius: "Then I will die."


----------



## TomB360

Sorry if this has been answered already but why are the Thousand Son and World Eater imprisoned in the Hollow Mountain?

Chronologically, the Thousand Sons and World Eaters aren't traitors yet, are they?


----------



## Baltar

I think that they were immediately imprisoned after Magnus arrived on Terra.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

TomB360 said:


> Sorry if this has been answered already but why are the Thousand Son and World Eater imprisoned in the Hollow Mountain?
> 
> Chronologically, the Thousand Sons and World Eaters aren't traitors yet, are they?


Read back through the thread, it saves someone else the effort of re-posting/debating.



Baltar said:


> I think that they were immediately imprisoned after Magnus arrived on Terra.


No they weren't, it suggests that other Astartes from Legions that ultimately remained loyal were also imprisoned.


----------



## Baltar

Orly. I think overlooked that.

Seems odd...


----------



## Angel of Blood

Arrested by association is what i instantly assumed. Doesn't seem that unlikley considering, A: the Custodes don't take any chances when it comes to the safety of the Emperor, and any potential traitors on Terra can't be left unchecked. B: Four legions have just turned traitor, many others are out of contact and status is unkown, again, can't take the risk.

Oh and chronologically the World Eaters are most definetly traitors at that point.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Baltar said:


> I think that they were immediately imprisoned after Magnus arrived on Terra.


No, they were already imprisoned. Atharva was in his cell when he sensed Magnus arriving.


----------



## Xisor

Baltar: If they'd only been imprisoned after Magnus' message, in the book, then there have been World Eaters traitors running about on Terra! (Isstvan V's mad treachery happens prior to Magnus' message, recall.)

Also, they weren't imprisoned in the Hollow Mountain. The Hollow Mountain (implied to be Everest) is where the Astronomican resides. 

Moreover, as per HH:CV, astropaths are only sent to the Hollow Mountain _after Magnus' message_(!?). Another change from McNeill there.

Whoever said TOD didn't make sense...


----------



## forkmaster

So I found this on the Horus Heresy Fan group on Facebook. Its a quote of Graham McNeil, it was not me who asked nor anything like it, Im just sending it forward. Its about the Crusader Host and why they were stationed on Terra. Its a mentioning about the Two Missing Legions (which according to the guy who copy-pasted the thing says he deleted shortly afterward).



> Okay, I got this from Graham when I asked about the name Crusader Host:
> 
> "This is from my synopsis for The Outcast Dead, and should shed some light on what was deliberately left a bit vague to allow the readers to fill in some of the blanks:
> 
> "While the Crusading Legions were out conquering the galaxy, a symbolic army of Astartes from each Legion remained on Terra, a reminder of the invincible warriors fighting Humanity. Each of the Legions was represented, some by a lone warrior, others by a squad or two, but all twenty had a presence on Terra to remind the common man who was out fighting on their behalf. Of course, with the outbreak of the Heresy, some of those warriors had to be removed from the Host and placed in a deep gaol within the bowels of the Imperial Palace – those from the two ‘lost’ legions, and those from legions that have since proved to be traitors. Most of these warriors haven’t had contact with their parent Legion for over a century (or even met their off-world brothers) but their affiliation makes them suspect.
> 
> Imagine it like the Japanese internment camps in America during WWII. In the dank gaol within the mountains, they coin the term The Outcast Dead for themselves, as this is how they view themselves; outcast from the Imperium that created them, and dead to all those that once lauded them as warrior gods. It’s an exclusive brotherhood, one which Kai Zulane is destined to join."


----------



## Baltar

I wasn't aware that the hollow mountain was implied to be Everest.

Actually, I thought it was implied that the Emperor's palace in general was built on top of the entire mountain range (or that the astronomican was built atop Everest [the highest point]).


----------



## AK74Bob

I'm not a fan of how the old, beat up Custodes dodges and deflects all the incoming plasma/hell gun fire from the mind controlled IG vets. They have some sort of jedi powers now? And instead of dying from their insane heavy weapons he gets his chest caved in by a super punch...wtf


----------



## MontytheMighty

AK74Bob said:


> I'm not a fan of how the old, beat up Custodes dodges and deflects all the incoming plasma/hell gun fire from the mind controlled IG vets. They have some sort of jedi powers now? And instead of dying from their insane heavy weapons he gets his chest caved in by a super punch...wtf


lol I feel you...
the only way to rationalise his dodging lasgun shots is that the he moves out of the line of fire before the trooper pulls the trigger 
or he simply zigzags and weaves about randomly to make himself a very difficult target

dodging an accurately aimed lasgun shot (projectile flying at light speed) by moving _after_ shot is fired should be impossible...even for a primarch, never mind a custodes


----------



## AK74Bob

Graham could have given him a storm shield or one of those energy shield things that some VIP's get in 40k or have the Thousand Son protect him with a psychic barrier (since he wanted him to survive so they could use him to get out), to make it more plausible...I know its sci-fi but still....smh

I did really enjoy the dialogue between Kai and Big E while playing regicide ("Because sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning"), and I felt that there should have been an epilogue with the two playing regicide for a final time, with Big E giving him a pat on the back for his good deed. But these authors love to crap all over the Emperor so oh well.


----------



## Baltar

Easy to accept for me.

IG vets are less than ants to a WE veteran sergeant (heavily augmented, too).

They are less than a microbe to a Custodian, too. Prolly could have cut through hundreds of them without sweat.


----------



## AK74Bob

If the IG vets had their usual useless flashlights yes, I would agree with you even if it were 100 IG vets, but they had some pretty exotic weapons and that Custodes is a large target. Hard to miss from inside 20 yards.


----------



## gatorgav

I'm a pretty big Night Lords fan so I thought there was a particularly interesting tidbit concerning the VIII Legion in this book that cleared up a long standing continuity issue. It seems we are finally getting an explanation as to how Curze could basically commit heresy by killing a bunch of marines (and almost a primarch) and still end up leading his legion to Isstvan and how couldn’t this have raised eyebrows… The short answer is that it did as Nemo and Sarashina and basically the whole palace are very worried that Curze has resurfaced and is leading his legion. However, I felt that some further and more interesting questions were raised concerning the VIII legion and what had befallen them since Cheraut…

1. Is the Raven Guard spying on the VIII legion?
2. Has the Raven Guard been actively seeking Curze? 
3. If Curze has been in hiding, where has he been hiding?
4. Has the majority of the VIII legion been stationed in the Sol system for formal inquiry since Cheraut?
5. What was the message in battle cant that was sent from Dorn to Corax and Vulcan concerning the matter? … bring Curze in? …a kill order?

Can they just hurry up and write a Night Lords Heresy novel already?? To me that is the true beginning of the Heresy. In the words of Malcador: “He saw this heresy coming”


----------



## Angel of Blood

Why do you get the impression the Raven Guard would be spying on/searching for Kurze?


----------



## Unknown Primarch

@gatorgav. whats the reference for this dude so i can have a read. thx

In the words of Malcador: “He saw this heresy coming”


----------



## gatorgav

Admittedly it's a bit of a jump as I re-read the section from Outcast Dead, Angel of Blood, but when Sarashina is telling Nemo about Curze being back with his legion she states that she heard it from the Raven Guard... 

As to the Malcador quote U.P. it came from the Lightning Tower audio book, at the end when Malcador and Dorn are talking about Curze and what Dorn is "really afraid of".


----------



## mal310

Personally I could not care less how character x beats character y in a fight. Its a fight and all outcomes are possible due to the nature of violence. Its the continuity issue and the lack of explanation of the Crusader Host that spoil it for me.


----------



## gatorgav

mal310 said:


> Personally I could not care less how character x beats character y in a fight. Its a fight and all outcomes are possible due to the nature of violence. Its the continuity issue and the lack of explanation of the Crusader Host that spoil it for me.


For real, I shouldn't have to log into a discussion to have to understand a key element of the book. I thought these guys just happened to be on Terra...


----------



## Baltar

Meh. I feel indifferent about it. I like to sum up the book in cartoon form:

Dorn walks into a room with characters in it.

Dorn: "Rawr, grumble, rabble rabble rabble, grrr, moan."

Character 1: "Oh, Lord Dorn is here. Wow, look how amazing his aura is. Isn't it amazing?"

Character 2: "Yeah, it really is. But, don't you think that he's such a massive dick?"

Character 1: " Oh, yeah, definitely. There is no bigger dickhead, I mean, LISTEN to him."

Character 2: "Yes, Lawd Dorn. We will get right onto that as soon as possible. It will take time, though."

Dorn: "Meeeerrrrrrrrrrr. Rabble rabble rabble rabble, grumble, whatever, dribble, groan, squeek, RAWR."

Dorn walks out, taking his awesome aura with him.

Character 2: "Wow. What a colossal asshole."

Character 1: "Yeah. Shame. I love his aura, though."

Character 2: "Totally."

Characters get back to doing exactly the same thing they were doing before Dorn went into the room and delayed them for a little while.


----------



## AK74Bob

Did Dorn waste the Thousand Son just because of that smart ass comment? Was that really necessary...and why is Dorn portrayed so poorly (and by poorly I mean he is a giant asshole to everyone) by ALL the authors?

Also is it implied that the Thunder Lord got the geneseed to fix their aging problem from the Lunar Wolf that was with the group (who escaped I guess?) or just one of the other dead astartes?


----------



## forkmaster

AK74Bob said:


> Did Dorn waste the Thousand Son just because of that smart ass comment? Was that really necessary...and why is Dorn portrayed so poorly (and by poorly I mean he is a giant asshole to everyone) by ALL the authors?
> 
> Also is it implied that the Thunder Lord got the geneseed to fix their aging problem from the Lunar Wolf that was with the group (who escaped I guess?) or just one of the other dead astartes?


I would think on one of the dead. I think the Luna Wolf will be expanded upon.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dorn was looking down at the bodies of the fallen astartes and noticed the cuts in the bodies, seems the thunder lord just took it from them.


----------



## AK74Bob

Ah must have missed that.


----------



## Grendelrt

AK74Bob said:


> Did Dorn waste the Thousand Son just because of that smart ass comment? Was that really necessary...and why is Dorn portrayed so poorly (and by poorly I mean he is a giant asshole to everyone) by ALL the authors?
> 
> Also is it implied that the Thunder Lord got the geneseed to fix their aging problem from the Lunar Wolf that was with the group (who escaped I guess?) or just one of the other dead astartes?


When the fighting is over and Atharva is looking around he comments that all the dead Outcast Dead's chest are opened up with giant wounds. Thunder Lord was plundering them while everyone else was fighting. I am really interested to see if they come back to the Thunder Lords and the missing Luna Wolf down the road. I thought the Thunder Lords were a really cool part of the story.


----------



## Worldkiller

Grendelrt said:


> I am really interested to see if they come back to the Thunder Lords and the missing Luna Wolf down the road. I thought the Thunder Lords were a really cool part of the story.


When I finished the novel I got the feeling those characters would be revisited, and I really hope I won't be proven wrong... again.


----------



## mal310

I see that it has failed to make the New York Times best seller list (although I may be wrong as the relevant list may not be published yet). I think this says it all. The reading public do not wish to be treated as fools who would happily accept chronological chaos with no explanation or reason.


----------



## Drac0nis99

So I made my own thread about this prematurely, I did not see this thread when I searched. So what do you guys think the babu is going to do with the geneseed just fix him and ghota or maybe make a band of Thunder warrior/Space marines and call them Thunder marines?? This book also made me realize how badass the world eaters were. I feel there a little like the wolves in that they want people to think there just berserkers onthe field of battle but really there surgical and smart with how they go about taking care of an enemy.:angry:


----------



## Bakunin

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Like others have said this was a fairly big hiccup from Mcneill. Especially considering it pretty much renders Magnus' warning pointless. Magnus sent his message after he realised Horus had been corrupted on Davin, so a while before Isstvan V. The subsequent Burning of Prospero was supposed to have occured almost simultaneously with the Drop Site Massacre. Why would Magnus have attempted to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal after Horus had already publically declared his rebellion and seven Legions been despatched to destroy him? Mcneill wrote _A Thousand Sons_ for Christ's sake, if this chronological error was unintentional (assuming it was) then this is unforgivable.


Sorry if this seems like I'm resurecting a dead discussion. I only read 'The Outcast Dead' a few weeks ago and I did wnat to write a review showign what I thought about the book before discussing this potentially large flaw.

Anyway, at first I did think that the chronology was completely wrong and thought that Graham had probably slipped up. However, as the book wnet on and some of the themes of the book became more prominent I began to think that this was not a slip up but was delibrate and is revealing something deeper about the Heresy that has remained hidden because of what is the official chronology and this chronoloogy fits all the information we ahve so far been given. basically this change marks out 'The Outcast Dead' as a change of direction for the Heresy, revealing some of the political machinations on the side of the loyalist factions. 

The key to understanding this (and the motivations behind this) go back to the start of the Heresy series and the discussion between Loken and Sigismund. The great crusade is coming to an end and the question is what role will the Legions have once the war ends? The Primarchs are not being made the Emperors rulers, humans on Terra are. The Legions are beginning to outlive their purpose and while are still needed to finish the crusade, are being turned into legend and things of the past in the form of the Remembrancers. 

'The Outcast Dead' specifically draws attention to what happened to previous warriors who helped the Emperor obtain his goals. The Thunder warriors outlived their purpose and were then culled. 

Babu Dhakal specifically says "You should know better than to take history literally... it would not do for the Emperor to have to share his victory with others. Where is the glory when you conquer a world with an unstoppable amy at your back? To begin a legend, you must win a war single handedly, and there must be no one left alive to contradict your version of events."

This is where the chronology becomes questionable and Graham McNeill is trying to assert the new chronology. The presumed sequence of events was that Horus was injured and Chaos got his soul. Magnus tried to warn the Emperor and incurs his wrath, resulting in the Space Wolves being unleashed as ounichment. Horus went to Isstvan III and with the other initial rebel primarchs got rid of potentially loyal members of their legions. Some escape and give a warning (which is this time listened to). Dorn sends seven legions to deal with Horus and four of these legions prove to be loyal to Horus resulting in the massacre of the three loyal legions.

All this has not really been debated and the Horus Heresy novels appear to play out this chronology. However, little has being shown from the perspective of the politicians ruling the Imperium, with only the perspective of some loyalist primarchs being looked at. Evne then it is shown that they are not actually running the war or the Imperium, but are in fact only one faction wihtin it. the short story 'Blood games' and the novel 'Nemesis' show that they are not neceassrily working to one plan, but are factions who generally work in the same direction. Nemesis shows that Rogal Dorn's main motivation was what he saw as the good of the Imperium, while Valdor is motivated by the good of the Emperor (which he sees as being, by default the good of the Imperium).

The altered time line in 'The Outcast Dead' suggests that there was alot more to the Imperiums role in the start of the Heresy than passive reaction and gives a few hints that the beginning of the Heresy was based around the Imperium fulfilling plans to cull the Legions. One of the central features is the imprisonment of Astartes from all legions in it, not just the Traitor Legions. This is portrayed as one of the first acts of carried out on terra during the war. However it is the role of Magnus that I think supports this best.

Graham McNeills new timeline has Magnus attempting to firstly protect horus from Chaos through projection across the galaxy. This is, incidently, something that long dead cognosynths were supposed to do. Horus sees Magnus as a potential enemy and makes sure that Leman Russ, who is heading to get Magnus, believes he is tasked with destroying Magnus. Yet this now makes sense (and is also suggested at in 'The Outcast Dead') if the Wolves were heading to Prospero for Magnus before Magnus tried to warn the Emperor. The decision had already been made (perhaps with some persuasion form Leman Russ and Valdor) to remove the potential threat of the Thousand Sons, with not adhering to the edicts of Nikea providing the excuse. The Thousand Sons, in the eyes of the hierarchy of the Imperium, were already seen as a threat that needed to be removed and culled.

Magnus' warning to the Emperor came after Istvaan V and the start of the Heresy because it was not so much a warning to the Emperor as a show of power and loyalty. This was meant to return him to the Emperors favour as well as showing the Emperor the use of the Thousand Sons methods. However the Imperium (and the Emperor) was already in the process of removing the Thousand Sons, in much the same way that they were building towards the cull of the Legions so as to enter the next era of the Imperium. 

Magnus also wanted to show that Horus' treachery was not simple treachery or rebellion, but chaos at work. He states that the Emperor "must bear witness to the acuity of my visions, and he must what I know with the totality of my truth." In the chronology this suggests that Magnus was trying to find the rught time to both prove the use of his studies and to show the role of chaos in Horus' rebellion, not actually alert the Emperor to the fact that Horus had rebelled, something that would of been found out eventually. Magnus' warning, that later became a justification for the already planned scouring of Prospero was partly aimed at self justification and was not based around warning of a military threat, but the threat of chaos. What Magnus did not know was the extent to which the Legions and primarchs were not trusted by anyone, including the Emperor. 

In this way, the beginnings of the Heresy mark the playing out of plans for the culling of the Legions and the fulfilling of doubts that the Imperiums hierarchys had about the loyalty fo the legions. 'The Outcast Dead' can be read as the suggestion that the hierarchy of the Imperium was already working against the rebels at the start of the heresy and this political play was one of the factors which enabled chaos to seize the opportunity to bring down the Emperors plans.

Of course there are alot of leaps of faith above. I've also written in a very long winded way which probably makes quite a few mistakes with chronology. 'The Outcast Dead' might of simply got the chronology wrong. However it should be remembered that graham McNeill has writtent virtually everything in the Horus Heresy series abotu Magnus so far. This includes Magnus trying to save Horus in 'Fals Gods', Magnus joining the Heresy at the end of 'Fulgrim' and of course 'A Thousand Sons'. Because of this I find it hard that he would suddenly forget the chronology and mix up when Magnus acted. Instead I think he is opening up something deeper.


----------



## increaso

@ Bakunin

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion I do agree that it seems bizarre and unlikely for Graham McNeil to have messed the chronology.

I do like your thoughts on the end of the Great Crusade and essentially moving towards getting rid of the unwanted legions, but I don't think this necessarily makes sense in relation to the Thousand Sons and the behaviour of the Space Wolves as seen towards the burning of Prospero. 

I reckon it's all to do with warp altering time.

My initial fudge on it is this:

Magnus sends himself to Terra x amount of time before Horus shows his cards, but the warp temporarily sends him into the future so that he arrives simultaneously with the dropsite massacre.

SW are messaged to go and apprehend Magnus, but this message arrives with them before Magnus actually travels to Terra.

And that's it.

I'm also curious as to whether there is a way to intepret Kasper's Horus as actually being Horus Lupercal (rather than a demon wearing his visage) and thus making Horus the catalyst for the mistrust between the legions rather than Horus directly telling Russ to break Magnus rather than haul him back to Terra. Of course, that requires a big leap in 'the warp did it'.

And another thought, is whether the Emperor was initially aware of the Heresy and whether he actually got the message from Magnus and on top of that whether he discussed the situation with the Sigilite. The Sigilite could have been dealing with the Heresy with Dorn and The Emperor was locked away doing his webway stuff with no knowledge of what is going on with Horus. The webway stuff goes mad as Magnus comes through and the Emperor directly sends the Wolves to get Magnus because he needs him to sit on the throne.

I don't know.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'm just going to have to disagree with you Bakunin. Changing the timeline in such a way isn't just a small retcon, its massive and even retcons/contradicts previous Heresy novels. There is simply no way to explain it, Graham messed up and i would dearly like to hear his justification for it or an 'oops, i messed up'.

If they're going to go around changing the chronology of such important and key events in the Heresy, then they may aswell just change everything.


----------



## Apfeljunge

Angel of Blood said:


> Changing the timeline in such a way isn't just a small retcon, its massive and even retcons/contradicts previous Heresy novels. There is simply no way to explain it, Graham messed up and i would dearly like to hear his justification for it or an 'oops, i messed up'.


Yes and No. It is massive and it probably should not have happened. 
There is at least one way to explain it thou. Russ and the Custodes were sent to Prospero way before Magnus message arrived on Earth. 
For some yet unknown reason. I know this not mentioned anywhere but it is, as far as I can tell, not outright contradicted anywhere either.

I simply can't believe McNeill would mess this up on accident. It's too big and too obvious. He clearly intended to do this, we just don't know why... yet.


----------



## mal310

Bakunin said:


> Sorry if this seems like I'm resurecting a dead discussion. I only read 'The Outcast Dead' a few weeks ago and I did wnat to write a review showign what I thought about the book before discussing this potentially large flaw.
> 
> Anyway, at first I did think that the chronology was completely wrong and thought that Graham had probably slipped up. However, as the book wnet on and some of the themes of the book became more prominent I began to think that this was not a slip up but was delibrate and is revealing something deeper about the Heresy that has remained hidden because of what is the official chronology and this chronoloogy fits all the information we ahve so far been given. basically this change marks out 'The Outcast Dead' as a change of direction for the Heresy, revealing some of the political machinations on the side of the loyalist factions.
> 
> The key to understanding this (and the motivations behind this) go back to the start of the Heresy series and the discussion between Loken and Sigismund. The great crusade is coming to an end and the question is what role will the Legions have once the war ends? The Primarchs are not being made the Emperors rulers, humans on Terra are. The Legions are beginning to outlive their purpose and while are still needed to finish the crusade, are being turned into legend and things of the past in the form of the Remembrancers.
> 
> 'The Outcast Dead' specifically draws attention to what happened to previous warriors who helped the Emperor obtain his goals. The Thunder warriors outlived their purpose and were then culled.
> 
> Babu Dhakal specifically says "You should know better than to take history literally... it would not do for the Emperor to have to share his victory with others. Where is the glory when you conquer a world with an unstoppable amy at your back? To begin a legend, you must win a war single handedly, and there must be no one left alive to contradict your version of events."
> 
> This is where the chronology becomes questionable and Graham McNeill is trying to assert the new chronology. The presumed sequence of events was that Horus was injured and Chaos got his soul. Magnus tried to warn the Emperor and incurs his wrath, resulting in the Space Wolves being unleashed as ounichment. Horus went to Isstvan III and with the other initial rebel primarchs got rid of potentially loyal members of their legions. Some escape and give a warning (which is this time listened to). Dorn sends seven legions to deal with Horus and four of these legions prove to be loyal to Horus resulting in the massacre of the three loyal legions.
> 
> All this has not really been debated and the Horus Heresy novels appear to play out this chronology. However, little has being shown from the perspective of the politicians ruling the Imperium, with only the perspective of some loyalist primarchs being looked at. Evne then it is shown that they are not actually running the war or the Imperium, but are in fact only one faction wihtin it. the short story 'Blood games' and the novel 'Nemesis' show that they are not neceassrily working to one plan, but are factions who generally work in the same direction. Nemesis shows that Rogal Dorn's main motivation was what he saw as the good of the Imperium, while Valdor is motivated by the good of the Emperor (which he sees as being, by default the good of the Imperium).
> 
> The altered time line in 'The Outcast Dead' suggests that there was alot more to the Imperiums role in the start of the Heresy than passive reaction and gives a few hints that the beginning of the Heresy was based around the Imperium fulfilling plans to cull the Legions. One of the central features is the imprisonment of Astartes from all legions in it, not just the Traitor Legions. This is portrayed as one of the first acts of carried out on terra during the war. However it is the role of Magnus that I think supports this best.
> 
> Graham McNeills new timeline has Magnus attempting to firstly protect horus from Chaos through projection across the galaxy. This is, incidently, something that long dead cognosynths were supposed to do. Horus sees Magnus as a potential enemy and makes sure that Leman Russ, who is heading to get Magnus, believes he is tasked with destroying Magnus. Yet this now makes sense (and is also suggested at in 'The Outcast Dead') if the Wolves were heading to Prospero for Magnus before Magnus tried to warn the Emperor. The decision had already been made (perhaps with some persuasion form Leman Russ and Valdor) to remove the potential threat of the Thousand Sons, with not adhering to the edicts of Nikea providing the excuse. The Thousand Sons, in the eyes of the hierarchy of the Imperium, were already seen as a threat that needed to be removed and culled.
> 
> Magnus' warning to the Emperor came after Istvaan V and the start of the Heresy because it was not so much a warning to the Emperor as a show of power and loyalty. This was meant to return him to the Emperors favour as well as showing the Emperor the use of the Thousand Sons methods. However the Imperium (and the Emperor) was already in the process of removing the Thousand Sons, in much the same way that they were building towards the cull of the Legions so as to enter the next era of the Imperium.
> 
> Magnus also wanted to show that Horus' treachery was not simple treachery or rebellion, but chaos at work. He states that the Emperor "must bear witness to the acuity of my visions, and he must what I know with the totality of my truth." In the chronology this suggests that Magnus was trying to find the rught time to both prove the use of his studies and to show the role of chaos in Horus' rebellion, not actually alert the Emperor to the fact that Horus had rebelled, something that would of been found out eventually. Magnus' warning, that later became a justification for the already planned scouring of Prospero was partly aimed at self justification and was not based around warning of a military threat, but the threat of chaos. What Magnus did not know was the extent to which the Legions and primarchs were not trusted by anyone, including the Emperor.
> 
> In this way, the beginnings of the Heresy mark the playing out of plans for the culling of the Legions and the fulfilling of doubts that the Imperiums hierarchys had about the loyalty fo the legions. 'The Outcast Dead' can be read as the suggestion that the hierarchy of the Imperium was already working against the rebels at the start of the heresy and this political play was one of the factors which enabled chaos to seize the opportunity to bring down the Emperors plans.
> 
> Of course there are alot of leaps of faith above. I've also written in a very long winded way which probably makes quite a few mistakes with chronology. 'The Outcast Dead' might of simply got the chronology wrong. However it should be remembered that graham McNeill has writtent virtually everything in the Horus Heresy series abotu Magnus so far. This includes Magnus trying to save Horus in 'Fals Gods', Magnus joining the Heresy at the end of 'Fulgrim' and of course 'A Thousand Sons'. Because of this I find it hard that he would suddenly forget the chronology and mix up when Magnus acted. Instead I think he is opening up something deeper.


Load of mince


----------



## Xisor

Bakunin, I can't quite bring myself to be as blunt as Mal310, but I do disagree. As you say, a lot of leaps of faith.

We've got a lot of evidence of what Graham can do on a good day (_A Thousand Sons_) and even on a slightly cloudy day (_Mechanicum_ [e.g. Dalia Sue.]). I can see a lot of the points your getting at; I think that's probably where Graham was aiming to go with much of what he did. But, like Ben Counter's _Battle for the Abyss_, I think a lot of the 'aimed at targets' were seriously missed. (In TOD it's the Astropaths themselves that let it down, mostly. I just don't think his 'vision' of the Blind City and their upper echelons is very interesting _at all_. Farrer's view of an edge-of-system relay-spire in _Blind_ was supremely superior, I strongly doubt McNeill even glanced at that.)

Anyway, I think McNeill dropped the ball in making these 'plays'. He aimed high, and admirably so. But I don't think he delivered the goods, sadly, as they sound delicious.

(Counter's 'ball drop' was the fact that the Ultras and Word Bearer's were mind numbing in the most moderately tepid. Compared to Skraal and Mhotep...who stole the show, the 'main thrust' of the story fell so completely flat I'm sure everyone had existential angst from it....feeling like they're unworthy protagonists in their own lives!)

Tagore and Athava are certainly entertaining, indeed excepting mysterious/forgotten Son of Horus, all the Outcast Dead get some excellent roles to play in TOD. But, for me at least, it's never enough, it never 'delivers the goods' in sufficient volume to outweigh the rest of the novel's...mediocrity (at its best). But it's not enough to carry the book; it's neither compelling enough nor involved enough.

And then you have Athava and Kai Zulane being...absurd in their different ways. Zulane's the best astropath. But has lost his powers. But has bionic eyes, so it's alright, he can see. Athava...who can defeat anything*.

* In fairness, Mhotep was very similar. But that was dealt with in the story: using his powers meant betraying the people he's trying to save..._and they know it_. This isn't dealt with much/at all in TOD, to my recollection.

===

*In Summary*

I see what you're getting at, Bakunin, but I don't think there's enough reason to delve and sift 'on faith'...it looks like Graham did just produce a poor novel.

The chronology stuff, I concede: he surely had a good idea in there somewhere. But throughout the reading of it, compounded by the spelling/formatting errors...it left me wondering if I was reading a poorly organised first draft of unfinished notes. That is, at best, unfortunate; it certainly doesn't lend the book favours. But still, the chronology's the least serious of the flaws in the book, for my mind. The fact it has a lot of other odd decisions swimming in it much overshadows the chronology.


----------



## Baltar

Angel of Blood said:


> The chronology stuff, I concede: he surely had a good idea in there somewhere. But throughout the reading of it, compounded by the spelling/formatting errors...it left me wondering if I was reading a poorly organised first draft of unfinished notes. That is, at best, unfortunate; it certainly doesn't lend the book favours. But still, the chronology's the least serious of the flaws in the book, for my mind. The fact it has a lot of other odd decisions swimming in it much overshadows the chronology.


It might just be my imagination, but it seems to me that as time has passed, the release schedule for HH novels has become much more concrete. If this is the case, I wholly suspect that it's the cause of flaws such as editing and spelling errors. It basically means that BL is saying to authors "YOU MUST HAVE FINISHED WRITING THE BOOK BY 'X' DATE OR DEATH".

I've never understood why such concrete deadlines would be necessary. Prolly better just to let a book be finished when it's finished.*

*I'm not saying the deadline thing is actually the case, but the set-in-stone type of release dates we see now are indicative of some sort of system for pumping out books by a deadline.


----------



## Bakunin

I doubt the deadline issue is an important factor. They would still have to include the editing proces in this deadline schedule and each novel would have to present a synopsis before the writing gets the go ahead. With 'The Oucast Dead' the new chronology is central to the plot. The Heresy needs to be known and started before Magnus arrives in order for the predictions lodged Kai's head to spark interest. Likewise, after Magnus has arrived, Astropaths can't send or recieve messages from Earth for a while. As a result, they would not be able to send the Legions to Istvaan V (and send out the Wolves to Prospero, unless they were already on the way...)

I still think the changed chronology is not a mistake. The question is why it has been changed. If it is convenience then it is extremely weak and Graham McNeaill would of done us a favour by not writng 'The Outcast Dead'. If it was the warp and showing it's unreliable and confusing role in the 40K universe (as has been suggested by Aaron Dembski Bowden on another Forum) then this also leaves unexplained chronological problems. The other explaination is something deeper is being carried out. I've given one theory above, have anyone got others?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Sorry but no, it just doesn't make any sense in the slightest. The Wolves were sent to Prospero because of Magnus the Reds actions on Terra, they could not have possibly sent earlier, Gregoras even mentions that the Wolves will be sent to take care of Magnus and the Custodian later even mentions that a large portion of the Custodes have been dispatched alongside Russ. And yet Istvaan V has already happened, completely, the battles already over and Horus a known traitor for quite some time. But Horus as early as Istvaan III(or us it as early as the end if False Gods? Can't remember) has was informed about the Wolves heading to Prospero, even changing their orders, this is long before he was even known to be a traitor. It just can't make sense. Graham fucked up, people just need to accept this.


----------



## mal310

Angel of Blood said:


> Graham fucked up, people just need to accept this.


I think Angel of Blood has hit the nail on the head. Graham has also not said a thing on the topic which I feel just compounds the mess. I think he's just too embarased. The whole thing just beggars belief.


----------



## Baltar

It isn't THAT bad...

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.


----------



## Bakunin

I agree, it has been blown out of proportion. But the problem is the 'Outcast Dead' seems to have become one of those things you love or hate. This is because of the style and pacing of the novel. However, things such as the chronology and other revelations within the novel are beign used as sticks to beat the novel with, while ignoring how it might fit in with the rest of the Horus Heresy novels.

BTW I'm also in the minority who liked 'Battle for the Abyss'


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

Did anyone notice the little nod to the fact the Sanguinius' attack on Horus _did_ leave a ***** in his armour that the Emepror would later be able to take advantage of it?
The idea of the Custodes and SW already being en route to Prospero when Magnnus sends his message doesn't really hold water. Doesn't one of the Custodes talk about how angry Valdor was, so angry the 'he unsheathed his blade'? For this Terra-bound Custodes to have seen this, or be in a position to have heard about it, suggests that the passage of time is rather poorly served in the book; I don't believe for a second that messing up the timeline in a massive way would be allowed through. Does this timeline match nup with _Blood Games_? If so, it might be that the timeline is being altered to something new.
I quite like the Emperor seeming to know what's going on before it happens. There's so much more going on than _HH:CV_ even hinted at. Wasn't it one of the stories in _Age of Darkness_ that suggests that Dorn's seeming diffidence is because he's worried that Horus might actually be right?

GFP

EDIT: Also, the green crystal in Magnus' meditation chamber. Could this be a Dolmen Gate, allowing him a way to break into the webway, Tzeentch providing some help?


----------



## mal310

Bakunin said:


> I agree, it has been blown out of proportion. But the problem is the 'Outcast Dead' seems to have become one of those things you love or hate. This is because of the style and pacing of the novel. However, things such as the chronology and other revelations within the novel are beign used as sticks to beat the novel with, while ignoring how it might fit in with the rest of the Horus Heresy novels.
> 
> BTW I'm also in the minority who liked 'Battle for the Abyss'



Err no. Personally I don't mind the style or pacing at all. 

I hate the chronology mess.

I hate the 'secret'.

I hate the fact the Emperor knows whats happens before it does (in so much he knows the 'secret').

I hate the lack of explanation for the Crusader Host and its other members. 

Your last point makes no sense at all. I hate the fact that it in no way fits in with the other novels.


----------



## Baltar

What is to hate about the secret?


----------



## mal310

Baltar said:


> What is to hate about the secret?


I feel its a let down and unimaginative. Personally I was looking forward to reading about something new, creative and unexpected which led to events panning out they way they did or potentially saving the whole Emperors dream if it had gone a certain way but tragically didn't because of events in the book. Instead we got something old (which seems lazy) bunged in. I also feel its pre knowledge changes in a hugely negative fashion the 'secrets' actual occurrence. It also begs the question why the hell it takes place at all if it was foreseen.


----------



## AK74Bob

The way you all keep talking makes me think that I missed something...the big secret is just that the Emperor knows he is going to die right?


----------



## Baltar

mal310 said:


> I feel its a let down and unimaginative. Personally I was looking forward to reading about something new, creative and unexpected which led to events panning out they way they did or potentially saving the whole Emperors dream if it had gone a certain way but tragically didn't because of events in the book. Instead we got something old (which seems lazy) bunged in. I also feel its pre knowledge changes in a hugely negative fashion the 'secrets' actual occurrence. It also begs the question why the hell it takes place at all if it was foreseen.


But we knew those events were foreseen all along....

This was the story of how they came to be foreseen...

I don't see the problem.


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## Xisor

The secret is 'merely' predestination based on in-universe ability to see the future. Except it implies a locked-down future. An inevitable, unavoidable one. That's _a lot_ less interesting as a 'new idea' than, say, the 'shadowpoint' emergent in the novel _Shadowpoint_. 

Personally, I didn't hate the idea behind the writing. And even at that...I didn't even hate many of the ideas. I hated the...half-baked-ness of it.

The chronology mess sits as something that could *easily* be fixed by simply swapping some chapters about. The lack of explanation about the Crusader Host? A missing paragraph or missed edit.

What I more seriously didn't like, aside from the nature of the secret, was the not-that-excellent characters. The World Eaters and Thousand Son were, to a large extent, Hollywood Remakes of the Eastern European classics Skraal and Mhotep. Then there's Nagasensa. I don't mind the concept or execution of the character, I mind that he's unavoidably Captain Japan. (Contrast: I loved the writing of those scenes, actually. I really, enjoyed them.)

Then there was the claustrophobic take on the universe. The Imperium as a whole populated by a handful of characters. The choice of backstory and Raison d'etre for Athava and Kai.

There's a ton of what, personally, I can only call 'dropped balls'. It should've went well. It didn't.

Much like _Battle for the Abyss_. I can't say it's a good book, there's too much that's gone critically wrong in BftA...and yet...it has a ton of awesome things about it. Skraal & Mhotep (and Brynngar's development, even if not Brynngar as conceived) were excellently executed. Like _Deliverance Lost_, there's the hint that 30k is much bigger than everything going on here, but that it's not taking place in a vacuum. TOD, by contrast, is too...conceited, but the conceit doesn't deliver.


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## AK74Bob

Interesting...I need to find those two Gothic War novels.


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## Phoebus

Xisor... spot on.

I couldn't get into pretty much ANY of the psyker characters. I thought Kai, for instance, was less tragic and damaged than he was petulant.

Probably the most interesting story angle of the novel ...



... the Thunder Warriors ...


... had pretty much ZERO to do with the story itself, other than to provide an interesting opponent for our Astartes friends to face. I found myself why Mr. McNeill didn't just save them for an anthology. Their portion would have made for an excellent short story. Where Kai's conflict, the secret he harbored, and the Heresy itself were concerned, though, they were completely irrelevant. I felt as if two good story elements were brought together (conflicted character; conflict-defining secret trapped within conflicted character) and then someone spun a wheel to randomly determine the third:



"OK, looks like... Kai will escape... to a temple run by a guy who's fervently atheistic yet doesn't mind the function of his stronghold... and the entire chase will have been for naught! Good job, team!"


I'll tell you what else I didn't like. Mr. McNeill had the world's greatest structure as the backdrop to his story. Yet while the characters were within the Imperial Palace, I felt the descriptions were rather bland and uninspiring. I kept thinking, "Shit, man, I see some illustrations from GW depicting these monumental fortresses, monuments, etc., and while this is supposed to be the grandest one... it feels so... plain." And then, to make matters worse, the story moves to a ramshackle shanty-town!

On a side note, I also found myself wondering why the greatest serving Astropath was assigned to... a Frigate. Or why the planet's most dangerous captives weren't under more secure captivity. I get that the story needs to move along at some point, but I just can't ignore details like "The superhuman warrior appears to have all his limbs free."

Cheers,
P.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

Thing is, when someone is determined to be unhappy, even if they don't know it, they are petulant and unpleasant, especially if the person they are interacting with is trying to make them change their mind. A reason for why things are how they are is much more attractive for someone, certainly over something that appears random and sets them apart, maybe above, everyone else. Someone who has survived awful trauma, if not helped in the immediate aftermath, is not goign to be a pleasant person to be around as they work through the bowels of their depression. Being emotionally damaged doesn't mean being unable to function, just not able to function appropriately.
The -redacted- might have been something of an afterthought, but isn't this a good way to enter them into the wider mythos? It is obvious that the Crusader Host in the temple allowed him to take their Progenoids before they died; hence why he says as his [art of the deal he will 'allow them to live'. Isn't passing on your Geneseed to the next generation a way of immortality for an Astartes? And, so, we see the passing of their torch to -redacted- and a way back into the novel for the one who got away. They now have an obvious role (what it is, ahhh, that is the question) in a way that mightn't have been as connected if they were an anthology storyline.
As to the descriptions of the Imperial Palace, I see two reasons as to not go into too much detail. First, how can something so huge and majestic ever be described in a way that will resonate with all of us who have been imagining this place for years? There's no way any Author could hope to do it justice in this regard. Second, is that the characters themselves don't see it. The Palace isn't an actor in this story as it iss an indistinct backdrop, a vast oppressive curtain for the characters to act against. It passes by them in a blur, or hangs over them like a threat. They don't care about towers and statues, more than they care about what shelter may be found under and within them.
@Xisor. How could Nagasena _avoid_ being Captain Japan? There is no Japan in the era of the Emepror Alive, so where is he going to be getting his ideas from? An idealised history passed on by those who want to keeo alove the ideals of a long-dead age. Today we see Medieval Knights as shining beings of Chivalry and honour, not spoiled brats with a congenital bloodlust and overwhelming urge to do violence as the answer to every question.

More generally, why do we need an answer to everything RIGHT NOW!!! How many books are left? How many stories? How many of the Crusader Host are still alive in the Custodes' prison and what stories are left for them to tell? The Emepror seemingly knows everything that we know- that doesn't mean that we know everything the Emperor knows; how could we? If such an imperfectly perfect being sees merit in a game he knows he can't win outright, then why can't he be playing the longest game there ever was? The Warp is uncertain and unsure, yet he has walked the path enough times to know that Ferrus has to die- who saw that coming? And if something that we all thought was a function of rage and honour and brotherhood besmirched was, in fact, a deliberate gambit by a controlling hand, then how can we sit back and look at what we know and say that _this is all there is to know about everyones' motivations/?
The Authors know the romance inherent in the GC and HH and in 40k in general, stories of epic scale and utter Humanity; otherwise they'd be C S Goto. Why don't we, instead, trust these people with that romance and see where it leads us, rather than jumping the gun?

GFP_


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## Phoebus

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Thing is, when someone is determined to be unhappy, even if they don't know it, they are petulant and unpleasant, especially if the person they are interacting with is trying to make them change their mind. A reason for why things are how they are is much more attractive for someone, certainly over something that appears random and sets them apart, maybe above, everyone else. Someone who has survived awful trauma, if not helped in the immediate aftermath, is not goign to be a pleasant person to be around as they work through the bowels of their depression. Being emotionally damaged doesn't mean being unable to function, just not able to function appropriately.


Different people react differently. Some react stoically. Some react in a Spartan manner. Some shut down completely. Some consciously try to overcome their suffering but aiding others in theirs. There are myriads of different reactions to trauma. Petulance and self-pity are certainly two of those reactions, but they sure do make it difficult to sympathize with your focal character.



> The -redacted- might have been something of an afterthought, but isn't this a good way to enter them into the wider mythos?


It would have been had they actually had something to do with the greater storyline other than being an unforeseen stumbling block.



> It is obvious that the Crusader Host in the temple allowed him to take their Progenoids before they died; hence why he says as his [art of the deal he will 'allow them to live'.


I... got the distinct impression that he gathered the Gene-seed from those who had already fallen, during the utter chaos (no pun intended) of the battle.



> They now have an obvious role (what it is, ahhh, that is the question) in a way that mightn't have been as connected if they were an anthology storyline.


How exactly were the Custodes introduced in this series again? :wink:



> As to the descriptions of the Imperial Palace, I see two reasons as to not go into too much detail. First, how can something so huge and majestic ever be described in a way that will resonate with all of us who have been imagining this place for years?


Better than the way it has thus far. I wouldn't say that Mr. McNeill didn't try to put _any_ effort, but I was disappointed to see only the most general terms of scale and size used. How is it that the artists who paint and draw illustrations for 40k are able to conceptualize and bring to life some of those images?



> There's no way any Author could hope to do it justice in this regard.


A complex the size of a small continent? Probably not. The specific portions of it that one DOES visit and interact with? Yes, absolutely!



> Second, is that the characters themselves don't see it.


Not true. Kai *can* see, thanks to his bionic implants, and it's at least implied that the Astropaths have comparable vision vis-a-vis their psychic sight. And even if the latter *couldn't* see, there's a challenge to provide a dramatically different perspective (and thus engage the reader more).



> The Palace isn't an actor in this story as it iss an indistinct backdrop, a vast oppressive curtain for the characters to act against. It passes by them in a blur, or hangs over them like a threat. They don't care about towers and statues, more than they care about what shelter may be found under and within them.


I find it odd, then, that the author went to the trouble to convey the reactions (emotional or otherwise) the characters had while passing various landmarks.



> @Xisor. How could Nagasena _avoid_ being Captain Japan? There is no Japan in the era of the Emepror Alive, so where is he going to be getting his ideas from?


By *not* being Captain Japan to begin with, especially as there was no Japan for some thousands of years?

Finally, I don't really care about everything being answered now. I'm just concerned about what we do see (especially when we see it for the first time) being described to us with more justice.

*Side note:* I have no beef with Mr. McNeill. I think he's by all means a good writer. I've enjoyed a number of his novels - from "Storm of Iron", to "False Gods", to "Dead Sky Black Sun", to "A Thousand Sons". I've probably had one complaint or another for pretty much every single one of those books, just as I've had them for pretty much every single book I've read... since no one's perfect.

My disappointment with this novel is part of an occasional trend I see across Black Library, wherein some efforts just seem unambitious.

Cheers,
P.


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## Xisor

Giant Fossil Penguin: Personally, I didn't mind Kai being petulant. His dialogue and interactions (and bewilderment) were all actually alright for me... if only he wasn't also the best Astropath in the Imperium. (Hell, that'd have been okay, if being an Astropath had been important at all. But it wasn't. It'd have taken a tiny leap of writing, such as simply writing the words "it happened this way" to convince me that a normal human could have equally received 'the secret'.)

Actually, I'd go further than that. Kai's dialogue was really entertaining, as was 'the banter' with the Outcast Dead themselves. (It was undermined by them being poor copies/better-thans compared to Skraal/Mhotep, etc etc.)

Anyway, the Palace. How could it have been done differently? _Deliverance Lost_ is how. Or _The Lightning King_. Or _Blood Games_. Or even the excerpts _The Golden Throne_ and _Beyond the Golden Throne_ from _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_. (Though those last ones are due to the impossibly cool things happening in the palace.)

And on 'everything answered now', the main trouble is when they appear to be indistinguishable from mistakes or critical omissions. There's a difference, critically, between 'mystery' and 'gaping hole'. I could be wrong, sure, but TOD gives the overall impression of gaping hole. Especially with the Outcast Dead themselves. It's not so much a mystery about them as much as...it just doesn't say.

---

*Captain Japan*

Phoebus hits the nail on the head. Not being faux-Japanese would make more sense. Nagasena's bits were really interesting. But ... wields a katana? Lives in a pagoda? Embodies the shinto way? Knows karate? (Albeit without [often] using these words?)

(It's a similar problem, to an extent, that I have with the grim caricature that is White Scars Epistolary Ching-Chong the Chinaman. The sentiment articulate and impassioned plea? No problems.)

I can happily concede that it's useful to play up or appeal to certain preconceived notions, but if the next 'villainous' chapter master in a renegade Marine story happens to have a huge nose, is a leader in a conspiracy that controls the world, loves money and muses on picking a pocket or two whilst trying to wipe out their neighbours led by Chapter Master Abdul Al-Wahad...

Yeah.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

I think I didn't explain some of my points properly, so sorry for that! 
The thing about the characters not seeing the Palace wasn't meant as they couldn't _physically_ see it, rather that it was not their focus. Descriptions of certain things rearing up, impressive or odd, would be like what heppens in those fleeting moments when their heads come up from concentrating on survival and WHAM! something is there that jumps out at them. Yes, there are things like this all over the shop, the Palace is just one big one as you've said, but too much just smears all the exceptional into a stodgy blur until just that moment when something jumps out at you.
With Nagasena, what I'm getting at is that all that has survived of Japan has been boiled away to some bare, disconnected ideals. What do we think of when we think of feudal Japan? Even the Japanese think this way if you were to go by some of their films. The essence of the place comes detatched from what it really meant to become a characature of reality, the self-delusion of the culture plus the misunderstandings of those not of that culture. He takes on every trope and stereotype because those things are like fucking cockroaches, survivng everything that wipes away the reality. I didn't see Nagasena as trying to represent anything, rather he was just a character who had had a life-changing epiphany and been told that this ancient way of life would help him; he's totally culturally adrift and living a life of anachronisms and absurdities turned up to 11.

GFP


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## Xisor

Hmm, that makes more sense, GFP, but I think I still disagree. Or rather, I'm certain I do. He wasn't all cultural oddities, Japanese Stereotype didn't infuse every essence of his being. (He also didn't say Domo Arigato Mr Roboto, nor did he cross a big road intersection as a crowd in twelve directions at once in the middle of a crazy-colorfully-neon-lit city, for example; those being the first things I think of as Japanese. He also didn't shout and point "GODZILLA!", the third thought.)

Had he, as you suggest, been a pastiche on the idea of cultural survival despite the odds...okay...I like that idea. But I don't think Nagasena was a representative of that idea. (Or, if he was supposed to be that, I don't think he was very well portrayed with that in mind.)

Worse: if that excuses Nagasena, what about White Scar Ching-Chong the Chinaman in _A Thousand Sons_?

(As for the Palace: yep, that "accounts" for _Blood Games_ and _The Lightning Tower_, but it doesn't even begin to deal with the discrepancy that _Deliverance Lost_ describes the Palace really well. The Palace isn't the focus in that, it's incidental. )


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