# Eldar infantry comparison, Heresy's Second Mass (Ab)use!



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Hello all,

There is always a lot of debate about which Eldar infantry is best at a particular job, so I thought I'd use the new calculator to search for some answers.

First, raw data, then the conclusions I draw from it.

*Shooting*

Each unit has 3 target types: Marines, Guard and Terminators. They then have 3 numbers, each indicating the number of kills from one round of shooting. The first number is WITHOUT any psychic help. The second number is with GUIDE, and the third number is with Guide AND Doom. I have also included the points costs, which will be relevant when I draw my conclusions.

10 Dire Avengers – 120pts

Marines: 2.2/2.9/4.4
Guard: 8.8/11.8/15.8
Terminators: 1.1/1.4/2.2

10 Dire Avengers with Bladestorm – 147pts

Marines: 3.6/4.6/7.2
Guard: 14.7/19.2/25.6
Terminators: 1.8/2.4/3.6

10 Warp Spiders – 220pts

Marines: 3.7/4.9/5.7
Guard: 7.4/9.8/11.5
Terminators: 1.8/2.4/2.8

5 Dark Reapers – 175pts

Marines: 4.4/5.9/7.9
Guard: 5.5/7.4/8.6
Terminators: 0.7/0.9/1.3

10 Rangers – 190pts
Marines: 1.8/2.4/3.7
Guard: 2.5/3.4/5.1
Terminators: 1.4/1.9/2.9

10 Guardians with Scatter Laser– 95pts

Marines: 2/3/4.3
Guard: 7.1/10.6/13.9
Terminators: 1/1.5/2.1

Without Psychic Support

Best Marine Killer: Dark Reapers, with 4.4 dead Marines per turn.
Best Guard Killer: Bladestorming Dire Avengers with 14.7 kills.
Best Terminator Killer: Tie between Warp Spiders and Bladestorm Avengers at 1.8 casualties apiece.

With Psychic Support

Best Marine Killer: Dark Reapers with 7.2 kills.
Best Guard Killer: Bladestorming Avengers with 25.6 kills (owch!).
Best Terminator Killer: Bladestorm pulls ahead of the Spiders, with 3.6 kills.

Conclusions:

Against Marines, the Reapers do come out on top every time, assuming an open field with no cover. However from a non-statistical point of view, they suffer from a lack of mobility and are rather fragile. Having half the unit size of other units also means that casualties have a much higher impact on their damage output than on the other units. They are also expensive.

Rangers are a reasonable middle-of-the-road choice, especially against armies that can be pinned, however they only cause mediocre casualties against all unit types, so if you're looking to remove as many models as possible from the enemy army then there are better options. As the second most expensive unit available, then I'd struggle to justify using them. Added utility against Monstrous Creatures though, if that's what you're looking for.

Guardians are a nice cheap option if you want to maximise the number of non-troops choices you can take, the Scatter Laser really helps their killing potential, and gives them a flexible role at range. The 12" range really bites though, as does the lack of armour or toughness. They kill almost as much as 10 vanilla Avengers though, for much less cost!

Avengers, strongly recommended as the premiere anti-infantry unit in the Eldar army, and for a good reason. 25 casualties on Imperial Guard! Yikes! In reality, the Guard will probably have a cover save if the unit is that big, but nontheless they are very capable of wiping out 10 man units, even in cover. Being able to kill 3 and a half Terminators isn't bad either, and in conjunction with a couple of Serpents, could wipe out the unit. However they do need Psychic support in order to cause significant casualties against MEQs.

*Combat*

Again, 3 target types, but this time only two numbers each - kills without Doom followed by kills with it. All of these numbers assume that it is the turn that the unit charges.

10 Banshees with Executioner Exarch– 182pts

Marines: 5.8/9.2
Guard: 10.6/15.4
Terminators: 3.8/6.1

10 Scorpions with Claw Exarch– 189pts

Marines: 5.2/7
Guard: 12.8/16.8
Terminators: 2.9/3.9

10 Harlequins with Kisses – 220pts

Marines: 7.4/11.1
Guard: 13.3/17.7
Terminators: 4.4/6.6

10 Harlequins without Kisses – 180pts

Marines: 4.4/6.6
Guard: 11.8/15.8
Terminators: 2.2/3.3

10 Storm Guardians with Warlock with Enhance – 120pts

Marines: 2.2/3.4
Guard: 7.7/11.2
Terminators: 0.8/1.3

10 Warlocks with Enhance

Marines: 5.5/6.4
Guard: 11.1/12.9
Terminators: 2.7/3.2

Without Doom:

Best Marine Killer: Harlies with Kisses with 7.4
Best Guard Killer: Harlies with Kisses again, 13.3
Best Terminator Killer: You guessed it... Harlies with Kisses at 4.4

With Doom:

Best Marine Killer: Harlies with Kisses, 11.1
Best Guard Killer: Harlies, kisses, 17.7 dead Guard
Best Terminator Killer: 6.6 kills from the usual suspects.

Conclusions:

Holy shit. I had no idea Harlies raped EVERYTHING that badly. They out-perform every single other combat specialist that we have. However the numbers are a little deceptive for several reasons:

- They are expensive, costing 40pts more than banshees, with only a couple more Marine/Guard kills and the same number of Termie kills. More, if you include the mandatory Shadowseer.

- They can't have a Serpent, unless you give them one from another unit and they embark on it turn one (remember they cannot turbo the turn they embark).

- They might cut through everything, but are extremely fragile, and can't take much return fire at all. Completely annihilating the enemy in one round is possibly the worst possible outcome for Eldar, because it leaves our precious assault units vulnerable to shooting and counter-assault.

- They suffer badly if they do not get the charge, or if the combat drags on. They drop down to Strength 3, and lose the extra attack, which hurts them more than Banshees or Scorpions. Hit-and-Run mitigates this slightly, however.

- They badly need Kisses, without them, they are worse than Banshees in almost every respect, while being more expensive and suffering all of the drawbacks listed above.

Comparing Scorpions to Banshees (the more common debate) then it seems that Banshees actually are the better choice, averaging only 1-2 less kills against Guard equivalents, but easily making up for it by killing 2 additional Marines and 3 additional Terminators. Also important is the fact that they ignore Feel No Pain, which has become a much bigger priority since the release of the Blood Angels codex.

Storm Guardians, again, are the cheap and cheerful choice, but manage not to lag too far behind the other units against Guard equivalents with 4 less kills than other units with Doom, but still 11 kills, easily enough to wipe out a unit. If you assume that they have 2 flamers and manage to shoot with them then they actually out-kill Scorpions against a Doomed unit! Just never send them at Terminators. Ever.

Hopefully this helped the Eldar players out there! Keep flying around in your pimped up rides and running away from anything that looks like a fair fight! :victory:


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Definitely helpful :victory:

Very useful information for a future eldar player such as myself to have.
Seems like Harlies are the way to go for CC


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yup, they're a lot more powerful than I'd given them credit for (they've always under-performed when I used them) but still with several drawbacks, as noted. Having native WS5 is another point in their favour, meaning they hit almost all infantry units on 3s.

Another benefit that I forgot to mention is that the Rending makes them much better against MCs and vehicles than our other troops too. They really are the epitome of "Glass hammer" in combat.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Really giving them a WS from another squad should really help them get to where they need to go without much fuss.

I'll have to give Harlies a try in my next play-test game with Eldar



> They might cut through everything, but are extremely fragile, and can't take much return fire at all. Completely annihilating the enemy in one round is possibly the worst possible outcome for Eldar, because it leaves our precious assault units vulnerable to shooting and counter-assault.
> 
> - They suffer badly if they do not get the charge, or if the combat drags on. They drop down to Strength 3, and lose the extra attack, which hurts them more than Banshees or Scorpions. Hit-and-Run mitigates this slightly, however.


Those points there would probably be the biggest weakness the Harlies have


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Plus if you give them someone elses WS, perhaps a guardian squad who plans to baby sit an objective, you can skip the shadowseer upgrade. Won't be much use inside the transport.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

No, but having them only visible to units within 24" at best, and 14" on average, is still a very useful ability to have to stop them getting demolished by blast weapons, especially if you strike a flank with them. It's obviously not as mandatory as if they were on foot, but I would strongly consider getting it for them anyway.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

only trouble is that a 10 man Harlie squad with the shadow-seer, kisses, and fusion guns and a WS with, say an EML, is starting to rack up the points.

Something I just thought of, what effect does it have on the results if the Harlies are attatched to a Farseer, who dooms the unit the harlies then assault?


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## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

I would think of sticking a seer with the harlies with stones and doom and forture... that would greatly increase their chance of survival getting to re-roll their saves. But again, the points are really start to rack up.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

That would be very pricey, but then again it would be the best way to run the unit.

1: Load up into Wave Serpent
2: Move toward a flank, behind cover
3: Fortune and Doom
4: Unload 'Quins (leaving the Farseer inside) behind the cover the enemy sees you have to move through and assumes your safe.
5: Remind him that 'Quins ignore difficult terrain and run to catch him
6: Move Serpent up along side them to allow Farseer work further down the line.

Remember that an investment in a Farseer shouldn't be considered too pricey since he can help more than one unit. Especially Eldrad! 

I want to know how 10 Warlocks w/ Enhance(THE pricey assault unit for Eldar) would compare with all those.
Something like?
Marines: 5.56/6.48
Guard: 11.11/12.96
Terminators: 2.78/3.24

Not bad all around since the main use of this unit is it's staying power after all. 
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But add on to that Banshee/Scorpion thing that the amount of casualties due to lower armor saves continues to tie the results. FnP is the only real deal breaker there.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Keep in mind that with Destructor and Enhance, assuming the warlocks are guided and are attacking a doomed unit, they get a lot more leathal


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Well you can see the difference in "Attacking a Doomed unit" and "Attacking a unit without Doom" by comparing the two numbers. For Harlies with kisses, they kill 4 extra Marines if they have Doom.

I wouldn't give them fusion pistols, we have Fire Dragons for that.

Making back their points would be an issue, because there would have to be a really nice juicy unit for them to sink their teeth into... but not many people run 250+ point infantry squads, and if they do, they're terminators... which aren't exactly the ideal target for Harlies. I'll mathcraft some more when I get back from town.

Edit: Have added 10 Warlocks with Enhance to the combat section, and while they don't exactly do badly, they certainly don't justify ~300pts. Their survivability (especially on Jetbikes) is possibly the best in our army, but their killing potential is low low low.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I guess there is no real point to adding Fire Dragons to the Shooting part. It's a lot of killing but a tad outside there real comparison zone.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, the idea was to scout out the best anti-infantry forces, because that's the only role that actually has competition for spots, unlike our anti-vehicle or anti-MC units... Wait... unit. Singular. :laugh:


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

What's wrong with giving the Harlies fusion pistols? Fair enough, Fire Dragons do the melta-spam better and more effectively, but potentially killing minimum 2 guys before combat by shooting means you have 2 less guys to kill once your in combat, and they get 2 less guys to hit back with.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

It also means the Harlequins are not Fleeting. Besides, with regular Pistols alone you're still likely to kill one MEQ. Other than that, you don't want to completely annihilate a squad to be wide open next turn. Or those two guys could be just enough to pull from the front to deny you the assault (assuming your 5" away). Also most importantly, they are a semi-expensive upgrade on an already expensive (fragile) unit.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Dawnstar said:


> What's wrong with giving the Harlies fusion pistols? Fair enough, Fire Dragons do the melta-spam better and more effectively, but potentially killing minimum 2 guys before combat by shooting means you have 2 less guys to kill once your in combat, and they get 2 less guys to hit back with.


Basic Eldar design philosophy; Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Each element of an Eldar army does exactly 1 job, and does it extremely well. It does not multi-task. Harlies job is to kill infantry, which they already accomplish extremely well without the expensive upgrades to melta-pistols.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Hmm fair point Styro and Sethis

I never thought of it like that before


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## MylesTheTroll (Apr 23, 2010)

Styro-J said:


> 5: *Remind him that 'Quins ignore difficult terrain and run to catch him*


They wouldn't ignore difficult terrain *if* you have a Farseer attached to them. They would have "Move through Cover" (which all ICs have) since the unit has to move at the rate of the slowest model. Though move through cover is still really helpful. 

I'm about 95% sure about this unless I'm missing something.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

No that's right, they'd only move at Move Through Cover with the Farseer in there with them. But the idea is to have a Farseer nearby, not in the unit. 

In my earlier example with the Wave Serpent, the Farseer was meant to continue riding in the Serpent when the Harlies depart. (may have been unclear, will adjust) If they are going to trudge across the board, then it is little issue to have some Psyker supervision..


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

As an aside the Farseer will lose Move Through Cover if he joins the Harlies. So they will only get 2D6 which makes them sad pandas.

Aramoro


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Does he? Hmm... Barely, darn "Doesn't have the SAME special rule" rule, eh? 

Well, he still gets it with Rangers at least.


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