# Tainted Primarchs?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that all of the Primarchs were touched in some way by chaos when they were kidnapped as babies.

I was thinking about which chaos powers touched which Primarchs and I've got a few to to start:

Sanguinius: Khorne (obviously) - battle prowess, black rage, Tzeentch - wings (mutation), trying to change things for the better, seeing the future, 
I theorise that's why Sang was able to reject Horus' offer to join him and Khabanda's offer, as Tzeentch's and Khorne's powers counteracted each other

Mortarion: Nurgle (obviously) - obsession with death, poison etc

Leman Russ (woof woof): Khorne - battle prowess, martial honor

Magnus: Tzeentch (obviously) - psychic powers learned (not inborn abilities), mutation

Angron: Khorne (obviously) - seriously angry guy, battle prowess

That's all I can think of, anyone got any more ideas?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Your examples I would say are essentially assumptions. The Primarchs were created to be generals and warlords remember, just because some suffered from rage shall we say, doesn't mean Khorne had his claws on those individuals all along. Or just because Sanguinius had wings doesn't mean Tzeentch destined his fate.

The general exception to this would be Magnus the Red, of whom it is implied that Tzeentch had always destined his fate, before he was even created by the Emperor.

But that having been said, it is plausable that the Chaos Gods orchestrated to some extent the corruption of the Primarchs from when they were 'abducted'. They may have ordained Mortarion's coming to Barbarus or Fulgrim's arrival on Chemos for example, which in turn developed their purposes, aspirations and personalities which in part enabled them to fall under the sway of Chaos many years later. They may have also been involved in certain occasions during the Great Crusade where a Primarch's fall relied at least to some extent on circumstance. Slaanesh for example, may have purposefully nurtured the Laer as a race, to have them mimic the ideals of the Emperor's Children and then obviously place the Daemon Weapon in the Laern temple which ended up perverting the ideals of Fulgrim and his Legion, making them more susceptible to Chaos corruption.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I was matching the stated traits of Primarchs and matching them with traits attributed to the chaos gods which I believe is logical. 

Since it's stated that the Primarchs were abducted and I think the chances that they were tainted during their abduction are reasonable. 

In a Thousand Sons its hinted that the Emperor used the Chaos gods own power during the creating of the Primarchs which I think (should it be true) that all the Primarchs were tainted in some way or another, if only in a minor way during their creation.

Therefore I was making an assumption but I thought that assumptions are what start many a good discussion on this excellent forum :grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I was matching the stated traits of Primarchs and matching them with traits attributed to the chaos gods which I believe is logical.


In a sense it is yes. But you have to take into account that the Primarchs were created to lead the Astartes Legions and forefront the Great Crusade, they were created with the express purpose of being great warriors. In that sense then, drawing a comparison between Angron's rage and Khorne's attributes is not necessarily logical, it may simply be more of a coincidence (because the Primarchs were created as warlords and fighters). Thats my thoughts anyway.



zerachiel76 said:


> Since it's stated that the Primarchs were abducted and I think the chances that they were tainted during their abduction are reasonable.


Indeed it is  - but in regards to the physical mutation, whose to say that the Emperor didn't engineer Sanguinius with wings? Or didn't envision Alpharius Omegon being twins? After all the gateway into the Imperial Dungeon was inscribed with the apparent symbols of the Primarchs; 'entwined siblings' referring to Alpharius Omegon - possibly showing that either the Emperor knew of the existence of Omegon, or that he engineered it as so in the first place.

As for general corruption (not just physical) yes, its perfectly plausable that Chaos somehow crept into the hearts of the Primarchs. But take into account that 'Chaos whispers to the hearts of all men' - so the Primarchs wouldn't have been above this, regardless of whether or not they were 'abducted'.



zerachiel76 said:


> In a Thousand Sons its hinted that the Emperor used the Chaos gods own power during the creating of the Primarchs which I think (should it be true) that all the Primarchs were tainted in some way or another, if only in a minor way during their creation.


The problem with that though is that we don't know exactly how the Emperor 'stole' the power of Chaos, and to what extent it was used in the creation of the Primarchs, if it was at all. Everything in that regard is just wild speculation, we simply don't have enough information. But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't speculate 



zerachiel76 said:


> Therefore I was making an assumption but I thought that assumptions are what start many a good discussion on this excellent forum :grin:


Indeed, I apologise if my first post came across a bit negative, it wasn't my intention.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Best to deal with the god specific primarch as far as taint, as we don't know alot about the origins of the primarchs. 

It really depends on whether you view that each of the 4 "God-Specific" primarchs were tainted by their patron early on or whether the actions of that primarch attracted the gods attentions. 

For Magnus, and the Thousand sons, they were pretty much damned from the outset, Tzeentch even told Magnus that he had been chosen by the pantheon aeons previously to be their champions and that Horus was a poor subsitute. Tzeentch clearly had chosen the sons as to be expected of the god of fate and destiny.

The others, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Angron are a bit more iffy. It would appear that Nurgle really became super interested in the Death Guard shortly before Isstavan, in Flight of the Eisenstein it mention that the events there with Grulgor were a mere test to see what would happen. Of course the sacred number of Nurgle was 7, Deathguard were arranged the number 7, Premonition or coincidence? Same with the whole toughness, relentlessness and durability are rathery Nurgly traits. Clearly theirs a relationship but we don't kow whether theres a mere correlation or causation.

Angron was a bit of a psycopath, but thats probably due to his history as a gladiator and his cortical implants, this could have been arranged and pre destined by khorne (or Tzeentch as a favour, can't see Khorne thinking too much) or was Angron's and the World Eaters actions what caught Khornes attentions

C-o-e has dealt with Fulgrim already.

Really I don't think well ever know if the primarchs were tainted, but they had alot of pressure on them to be perfect and many could not deal with it, and took the easy way or the way of self preservation.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Angron was a bit of a psycopath, but thats probably due to his history as a gladiator and his cortical implants, this could have been arranged and pre destined by khorne (or Tzeentch as a favour, can't see Khorne thinking too much) or was Angron's and the World Eaters actions what caught Khornes attentions


I love the idea that far from the Emperor tricking the Chaos gods, they "allowed" themselves to be tricked and at times worked together to pervert the Emperor's plans for the Primarchs (kidnapping them etc) and actually worked together to mutate them and predestine them. Again we'll probably never know but I hope they do throw us some more tidbits on this 



Barnster said:


> ...but they had alot of pressure on them to be perfect and many could not deal with it, and took the easy way or the way of self preservation.


Yeah, in some ways they were like Children and simply couldn't cope. Very different from the "perfect" examples of humanity the Emperor attempted to create.

It was my intention for this thread for people to think of ways in which all the Primarchs MAY have been tainted, even if we'll never know for certain.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

There is some speculation of the Dark Angels and their primarch maybe being tainted by the warp/chaos, because their planet was tainted. Could have happened to other worlds. Typhus and the Death Guard description in one of the astartes I think talk about some taint or something between those lines in their planet which infected Typhus.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Men arre shaped by their environment, and the primarchs were no different.

Angron became a murderous psycho because he was forced to be a gladiator.
Kurze became a psychotic vigilante because he lived on a lawless world.
Guilleman became a noble leader because he was raised by such a man.
Russ became a savage warrior because that is how all fenrisians must live.

And so on... If they had landed anywhere else, they could have been very different people. Guilleman could have been a murderous warlord, Kurze could have been a viking. Their own innate talents may have had some part of their development, but they ultimately could not have learned what was not there to be learned.

As to whether the gods engineered this specifically? As has been said, this remains speculation. In my mind, the scattering was done in a fit of rage at their betrayal, and only later on did they see fit to take advantage of the situation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Men arre shaped by their environment, and the primarchs were no different.
> 
> Angron became a murderous psycho because he was forced to be a gladiator.
> Kurze became a psychotic vigilante because he lived on a lawless world.
> ...


While that is true, and indeed several sources (_Lord of the Night_ prominent among them) have claimed that the Primarchs grew to manhood each in the reflection of the world that had claimed them, becoming a parody of the particular human culture which embraced them. Thus Angron as you say for example, became a murderous, martially supreme but honourable individual. 

But there is still the question of whether the Primarchs were solely the result of their upbringing on the various human worlds, or whether they were (at least in part) engineered with particular traits by the Emperor. Was Magnus engineered with the intention of him being an incredibly able psyker for example? Or was it just blind coincidence that he landed on Prospero and developed his powers? Personally I think the evidence points to the Emperor engineering Magnus at least, with his particular traits and abilities - noting that Magnus had developed and mastered the enumerations, and conversed with the Emperor many times before the scattering of the Primarchs even occured. This I think is further supported by the fact that the Emperor named the XV Legion; The Thousand Sons, maybe with the foresight of what fate had destined for them (or at least in regards to the flesh-change/discovery of Magnus). Or of course in Magnus' case, there is always the issue of Tzeentch, and to what extent he was involved. 

So if this is the case and the Emperor did engineer the particular traits of the Primarchs in full or in part, it brings a whole lot of more speculation to the table.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I did mention "their own innate talents" being a factor.

Magnus. I should have mentioned him, he is probably the sole exception to my theory. That said, his world was of a similar nature to his own, even if it was only due to his influence and protection.

The denizens of prospero were prey to psychic hunters, but once they were dealt with the world became a haven of knowledge. Did this influence Magnus or vice versa? This lends support to the theory that the gods were deliberate in the scattering, but as I said, Magnus is... a special case.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

p.s. Magnnus was the Emperor`s first choice to man the Golden Throne when the crusade was over. Thus he was the most powerful psyker of all the primarchs. This we can (pretty safely) assume was the Emperor`s own design. Whether this relates to Prospero at all, I have no idea.


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## vortex_13 (Apr 17, 2010)

A Thousand Sons seems to imply that all the primarchs were psykers. There's a scene where Magnus is looking at one of the other primarchs and seeing the warp energies swirling around him thinks how hypocritical the others are for condemning him.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> While that is true, and indeed several sources (_Lord of the Night_ prominent among them) have claimed that the Primarchs grew to manhood each in the reflection of the world that had claimed them, and the Primarchs became a parody of the particular human culture which embraced them. Thus Angron as you say for example, became a murderous, martially supreme but honourable individual.


I like this theory because it means that not only is the Lion a ferocious and honorable warrior, but that he hides a hidden corrupt heart at his core.

Right?

C'mon, let me have my unreasonable dislike of the Dark Angels for just a little while longer.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Prospero was a haven for psykers, It may simply be that only magnus developed his psycic potential due to enviromental factors. Russ has a warp scream, but isn't noted as a psyker.

Interestingly all primarch have immense personality similarities, suggesting a small natural influence.

I don't think we'll ever know the answers to the nature nurture debate with the primarchs though.

BTW why did it take the Emp so long to get to prospero? In a 1k sons Magnus says he never lost contact with the emp


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## LucarioNid (Apr 24, 2010)

I thought the Blood Angels got the Black rage from Sanguinis' death? The Red Thirst was the beggining trait befor ethe Heresy, If I remember correctly.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Blood Angels did suffer from a rage similar to the Black Rage that was brought to the fore on Signus Prime when Sanguinius fell and his Legion went bereserk- though not as ape shit as when he actually died and they stormed over the walls of the Imperial Palace and pretty much dived straight into the middle of the horde of traitors.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> p.s. Magnnus was the Emperor`s first choice to man the Golden Throne when the crusade was over. Thus he was the most powerful psyker of all the primarchs. This we can (pretty safely) assume was the Emperor`s own design. Whether this relates to Prospero at all, I have no idea.


This is an interesting point as I thought the whole reason that the Emperor locked himself in his palace basement even prior to Magnus' message which shattered his shields; was that the Emperor intended the Imperials to use the webway.

Did he only decide after Magnus' messageto have Magnus man the golden throne since the webway was no longer an option? As if it was before that then there doesn't seem to be any point to having an astronomicon anymore once the webway was accessible.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> This is an interesting point as I thought the whole reason that the Emperor locked himself in his palace basement even prior to Magnus' message which shattered his shields; was that the Emperor intended the Imperials to use the webway.
> 
> Did he only decide after Magnus' messageto have Magnus man the golden throne since the webway was no longer an option? As if it was before that then there doesn't seem to be any point to having an astronomicon anymore once the webway was accessible.


It was the Emperor's original plan (prior to Magnus' warning) to have Magnus sit on the Golden Throne. But not for the Astronomican (which wasn't guided by the Golden Throne at this point), for the Webway. In order to access the Webway, the Humans needed psychic protection until they entered the Eldar network which had its own built-in protection via runes/wards etc. The Emperor couldn't replicate these wards/runes to protect his own built section of the Webway so he had to use his own powers via the Golden Throne to shield the human-built section of the Webway until that reached the Eldar network.

He intended Magnus the Red to sit on the Golden Throne to enable humanity to use the Webway. That was his original plan.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Ahh, thanks CoTE, I wonder what he intended for the TS then? Guardians of the Webway perhaps?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Ahh, thanks CoTE, I wonder what he intended for the TS then? Guardians of the Webway perhaps?


Thats okay 

Well according to _The Collected Visions_ the Astartes Legions were too be disbanded and organised into police forces to police the Emperor's regime. And the Primarchs were to become administrative lords, ruling over seperate regions of the Imperium. If Magnus was intended to sit on the Golden Throne, the Thousand Sons would have either been with him having something to do with the Webway (as you suggested) or just like the other Legions; policing a realm, just without their Primarch.


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## Liam Eraser (May 6, 2010)

I don't think the touch of Chaos during their exile really affected their personality much, i believe it was mostly prepping them to more susceptible to Chaos when everything came to pass during the heresy. Hence why so many Primarchs readily accepted Horus and his heresy.


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## vortex_13 (Apr 17, 2010)

So many accepted Horus and his heresy because the Emperor is a terrible administrator of people. The entire heresy could have been averted if he had just paid attention to his subordinates.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

vortex_13 said:


> So many accepted Horus and his heresy because the Emperor is a terrible administrator of people. The entire heresy could have been averted if he had just paid attention to his subordinates.


The galaxy is freakin` huge! 
His boys were all over the place! 
He had a really important science project in his basement! 

And he`s only one guy! C`mon, if a whole parliament house can`t keep track of one little country, how could one dude (even the emperor) keep track of a galaxy?

Seriously, Australia`s government is a joke...:ireful2:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

My understanding of the Primarchs was this, the Chaos Gods scattered them across the universe because had the Emperor raised them like he planned, they would have been far greater than they were and uncorruptable. But by having them scattered across the galaxy and raised by normal men, it made them more human, more susceptible to human weaknesses. Then, each and everyone was tested by Chaos. Half resisted, half fell.

In regards to their mutations, it's hard to say how they came about. It could have been a Chaos mutation, a genetic mutation, or intentional mutation by the Emperor, it's impossible to say. Personally, I believe it to be the latter two.


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## vortex_13 (Apr 17, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The galaxy is freakin` huge!
> His boys were all over the place!
> He had a really important science project in his basement!
> 
> ...


To busy to realize that Angron was really pissed about that entire kidnapping thing? To busy to realize that Kurze was completely insane and maybe shouldn't be given command of thousands of troops? To busy to notice that Perturabo wasn't really pleased about having to garrison planets?To busy to notice that Horus had turned traitor even though people had TOLD him he had turned traitor?
Appears to me that the Emperor isn't as smart as he's made out to be.


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