# Emperor Finishing the Webway Link



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So I got these questions from the other thread that's up right now. Thought it deserved its own thread. 

So the Emperor supposedly wanted to use Magnus to hold the Webway open for Imperial use, wouldn't the other Primarchs see issue with his mind being blatantly abused? No chance he would willingly accept such a position. It seems like the Emperor was setting himself up for the rebellion, even without the aid of Chaos. 

Then, once he finished his link to the Webway at Terra, how does that suddenly allow Imperial ships to use the Webway? Wouldn't they need some new technology for the entire Imperium? 

Final question, couldn't the Eldar and Dark Eldar still defend the Webway? If the Emperor made the link to the Webway, wouldn't that just allow the Eldar and Dark Eldar to invade Terra from that Webway portal? With all the Primarchs out fighting in the Crusade, could they keep their foothold in the Webway?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> So the Emperor supposedly wanted to use Magnus to hold the Webway open for Imperial use, wouldn't the other Primarchs see issue with his mind being blatantly abused? No chance he would willingly accept such a position. It seems like the Emperor was setting himself up for the rebellion, even without the aid of Chaos.


In _A Thousand Sons_ Magnus (seemingly) becomes aware of what the Emperor intended for him (after their minds met in the Imperial Dungeon) and deeply regretted not being able to fulfil that role. He certainly didn't see it as himself being abused, he would have considered it an honour to be the conduit by which the Imperium consolidated it's position as the primary power in the galaxy. 



SoL Berzerker said:


> Then, once he finished his link to the Webway at Terra, how does that suddenly allow Imperial ships to use the Webway? Wouldn't they need some new technology for the entire Imperium?


They would have had access to the wider webway network and thus access to millions of portals throughout the galaxy - assuming they could have successfully navigated the network and fended off the Eldar and other species. 

What is worth mentioning though is that the webway was incredibly damaged due to the Fall of the Eldar, and wasn't as extensive or as effective as it was pre-Fall - still more stable than warp travel though.



SoL Berzerker said:


> Final question, couldn't the Eldar and Dark Eldar still defend the Webway? If the Emperor made the link to the Webway, wouldn't that just allow the Eldar and Dark Eldar to invade Terra from that Webway portal? With all the Primarchs out fighting in the Crusade, could they keep their foothold in the Webway?


The Eldar would have posed a major stumbling block. But assuming the Emperor could have maintained a sustainable access point, the inexhaustible armies of humanity would have eventually overwhelmed the Eldar by negating their one primary advantage (the webway itself). Being so soon after the Fall as well, the Dark Eldar weren't as entrenched or established in the webway as they are now in M41.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Apparently Magnus would have relished the chance to lead entire armies via telepathy and to have his powers augmented by the Golden Throne.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Eldar would have posed a major stumbling block. But assuming the Emperor could have maintained a sustainable access point, the inexhaustible armies of humanity would have eventually overwhelmed the Eldar by negating their one primary advantage (the webway itself). Being so soon after the Fall as well, the Dark Eldar weren't as entrenched or established in the webway as they are now in M41.


Just six or seven of the original legions, IMO, would have been able to wipe out the combined forces of both Eldar.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Just six or seven of the original legions, IMO, would have been able to wipe out the combined forces of both Eldar.


Maybe. Though that is a monumental commitment to a single campaign.

I've no doubt that if the Emperor was able to maintain his access to the webway (assuming the Eldar were unable to seal off that section of the webway for example) the armies of humanity would have eventually overrun the Eldar, but it would have still been a major effort.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

To save humanity from the Perils of Warp Travel? I'm sure he'd have dedicated every resource he had to clearing the "Imperial star portal" from those nasty xenos squatters.


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

Wouldn't the Eldar then have the whole webway collapsed? (and doom themselves in the process, I know...)


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Romanov77 said:


> Wouldn't the Eldar then have the whole webway collapsed? (and doom themselves in the process, I know...)


I don't think the eldar would commit mass suicide, I mean they seem a rather strong desire to live, hell they've survived for what 10k+ years after 80% of their race had their souls sucked out like a crawfish being eaten by a *******.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

My own knowledge of the Eldar is a bit limited, but they can travel to other planets by other means than the Webway, right?

My understanding of the Webway is that it's like a...train system, of sorts. Webgates at particular planets or points of interest that a traveler can "stop" at, right?

Whereas normal warp travel is closer to a car (or maybe sky diving since you just land in the general location you're aiming at...most of the time). You can pick the spot you want. There's no real restrictions. 

I assume that shutting the Webway would be a horrendous loss to the Eldar, but it would not spell their doom as they have other methods of travel, right?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They can since their ships have no equivalent amongst the various races with the exception of the Necrons but why would they when they have instantaneous travel (Webway).

However, despite how fast their ships are, space is a massive place so they would not be able to reinforce, invade, or defend their worlds from enemies like how they're doing now.

And where they to travel via the Warp like the Imperium does, I think they'd suffer a lot more since their souls are much brighter and so they'd be under attack at a much more frequent rate and perhaps they'd draw the attention of the strongest denizens of the warp. Also, I think because of their reliance on the Webway all this time, they don't or would not be able to come up with something like a Geller field (speaking of which, I wonder how the Orks/Tyranids manage to do it without incurring massive losses in their numbers. Though the latter probably can be said to lack souls).

Without the Webway and in their diminished post-Fall state, they would have perished long ago I think.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Romanov77 said:


> Wouldn't the Eldar then have the whole webway collapsed? (and doom themselves in the process, I know...)


I very much doubt they have the ability to do that.



hailene said:


> My own knowledge of the Eldar is a bit limited, but they can travel to other planets by other means than the Webway, right?
> 
> My understanding of the Webway is that it's like a...train system, of sorts. Webgates at particular planets or points of interest that a traveler can "stop" at, right?
> 
> ...


As _Malus_ said, the loss of the webway would likely be a fatal blow to the Eldar. The webway allows them almost-instantaneous pin-point access to millions of locations throughout the galaxy. Not only that, but it is a refuge for the majority of their species (Dark Eldar & Harlequins) - which is utilised to avoid the predations of She Who Thirsts. The webway wouldn't only remove their only reliable method of travel and communication, but also their only relatively safe refuge from the Dark Prince. 

The only other travel alternative to the Eldar would be warp travel, which would be much more dangerous (perhaps even suicidal) for the Eldar - given their innate connection to Slaanesh and much higher warp presence. 

NB: Mankind's dominance of the webway would also likely have hindered the Necron Dynasties as well, given that their only method of travel (outside of the torch-ships) is the webway. The Imperium's conquest of the webway would have gone a long way to ensure Imperial dominance of the galaxy for a long, long time. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> (speaking of which, I wonder how the Orks/Tyranids manage to do it without incurring massive losses in their numbers. Though the latter probably can be said to lack souls).


The Tyranids don't utilise warp travel.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Just six or seven of the original legions, IMO, would have been able to wipe out the combined forces of both Eldar.


A legion would be enough. Three chapters invaded Commoragh and they already did considerable damage and lasted pretty long if you ask me. And that was only several companies, featuring like 500-700 marines. Now imagine what a force of 100,000 astartes would do. Add a Primarch on top of that. Although this is offtopic. 

I dont know where I read that, but I remember something being said about Eldar being able to seal different pathways ( I think it was Dark Eldar codex ) not to mention they were the ones in control of webway for milions of years. I doubt It would be that easy to navigate webway corridors without some kind of serious obstacle...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

LordOftheNight said:


> A legion would be enough. Three chapters invaded Commoragh and they already did considerable damage and lasted pretty long if you ask me. And that was only several companies, featuring like 500-700 marines. Now imagine what a force of 100,000 astartes would do. Add a Primarch on top of that. Although this is offtopic.


That's because Vect planned for them to enter in to do the work of lessening his rival's powers.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I remember reading that the Eldar, while still the 'masters' of the webway, technically have no ability to mainpulate it as a medium. I'm thinking more along the lines of creating new pathways and repairing what had been damaged... sort of like the 40K Imperium with Gellar Field technology, they have it and know how to use it, but don't understand it enough to ever make improvements.

I don't think the description in the Inquisition Wars of the internal workings of the Webway have been retconned too much yet. In which case, I'd be interested to know how the Emperor intended on getting things as large as star ships in thorugh the Imperial portal? I suppose it could just be a stable entry point on Terra, then he would find another larger portal elsewhere to utilize for ships.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the better question is how much larger Imperium would be if the webway plan truly worked. Endless tide of imperial guards regiments pouring in supported by endless tide of heavy armor and artillery. I think at that point other forces would be simply irrelevant since gm could swarm the over with sheer numbers..... 

Not much to discuss in this thread anymore anyway. 





> That's because Vect planned for them to enter in to do the work of lessening his rival's powers.


Doesn't matter since the topic was how many legions/forces were required  Imperium would find a way in on their own anyway, eventually.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

LordOftheNight said:


> Doesn't matter since the topic was how many legions/forces were required  Imperium would find a way in on their own anyway, eventually.


Yet they haven't except for one time since the Imperium was founded. The only way they found passage into Commoragh was because of a trapped Space Marine acting as a psychic beacon who was brought into the city.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

My two cents.

1) Magnus does not care either way as per Thousand Sons. He would have done it.

2) Webway is webway, no special tech needed to go through it.

3) Here is the issue I have with people saying Emperor could hope to conquer the webway.

First off, Seers existed in Eldar before the fall, and they would foreseen this threat and done something about it for sure.

Second, the Eldar still had superior tech like Black Hole in a box like Vect used once to swallow a dimension. Goodbye Terra.

Third, the Eldar should have no issue shutting the Webway again easy. Emperor, and Ahriman himself have spent years to gain access when Warlocks have shown in codexes and fluff to easily shut down a Webway portal with utter ease, but they dislike closing off their options.

Lastly, Chaos Deamon hold much of the Webway after the fall as well. GL cleansing parts of the Webway engulfed in the warp Emperor.

C'mon people, it was doom from the start logically when looking at the fluff Eldar have.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> First off, Seers existed in Eldar before the fall, and they would foreseen this threat and done something about it for sure.


They certainly did have Seers, but the Fall had literally just happened (no more than 200 years before the Emperor's webway project). The Eldar race was still reeling. If the Emperor had achieved unrestricted access to the webway network (which seemed to have been a strong possibility) there was little the Eldar could have done about it in the medium to long-term. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Second, the Eldar still had superior tech like Black Hole in a box like Vect used once to swallow a dimension. Goodbye Terra.


True, and I'm sure the Emperor was aware of that. There were certainly ways with which such technology could have been negated and the Throneworld protected. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Third, the Eldar should have no issue shutting the Webway again easy. Emperor, and Ahriman himself have spent years to gain access when Warlocks have shown in codexes and fluff to easily shut down a Webway portal with utter ease, but they dislike closing off their options.


Yes, but again, remember that the Fall had just happened and the Eldar race was in complete disarray. Were they even aware of the Emperor's intrusions given the catastrophic effect the Fall had had on the webway as well? By the time they were aware of Imperial encroachment it may well have proven too late to contain. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Lastly, Chaos Deamon hold much of the Webway after the fall as well. GL cleansing parts of the Webway engulfed in the warp Emperor.
> 
> C'mon people, it was doom from the start logically when looking at the fluff Eldar have.


Such areas didn't have to be cleansed, merely avoided. Despite the webway suffering heavily as a result of the Fall, the Eldar still managed (and continue to manage) to utilise the network to incredible effect. The Imperials could have as well.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I'm sure it's an easy answer, but aside from the fear that it may be closed unexpectedly, what has stopped the Imperium from finding a world where there's an existing Webway portal, and fortifying the hell out of it? Unless having Magnus on the Golden Throne was a key part to defending/retaining the Imperial gate, couldn't they just insert a chapter of SMs into the webway to keep others away?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They certainly did have Seers, but the Fall had literally just happened (no more than 200 years before the Emperor's webway project). The Eldar race was still reeling. If the Emperor had achieved unrestricted access to the webway network (which seemed to have been a strong possibility) there was little the Eldar could have done about it in the medium to long-term.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything I said is based on mostly the fact the Eldar would know to react, and the argument then becomes would they know.

IMO yes. Eldrad was already easily seeing the threat Horus was years before the Heresy broke out. The Eldar of the Cabal foresaw the events as well to be a threat, as well the outcomes on who wins the war. I see no reason the Eldar would not foreseen the threat of the Emp's work on the Webway if he succeeded, and IMO I think its more reasonable they knew that the Emp would fail. So did nothing.

If they knew he would be a major threat this way, I am convinced they would had known, acted, and most likely shut that project down.


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Warlock in Training said:


> If they knew he would be a major threat this way, I am convinced they would had known, acted, and most likely shut that project down.


How? How would they shut down a project on the most protected planet, of the most powerful species rising in the galaxy at that time? Not to mention the most powerful psyker in the galaxy is at ground-zero of the project. 

Like Child-of-the-Emperor said, the Eldar were still coming out of disarray due to the Fall. I've always taken the webway project held as a "this would have happened, it would have worked - everything was ruined by civil war/heresy and the events leading up to it" type scenario. The Eldar couldn't have done much by conventional means.

We have no evidence to suggest the Eldar knew of the project but that being said - we don't have anything to suggest that they didn't know. One could base presumptions on the Eldar in the Cabal knowing of it, hence why it was an easier decision to plot the death of the entire Human race. Against this is the warnings sent to Fulgrim and other Primarchs warning of the HH. 

It just doesn't seem likely that they knew.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Scrad said:


> How? How would they shut down a project on the most protected planet, of the most powerful species rising in the galaxy at that time? Not to mention the most powerful psyker in the galaxy is at ground-zero of the project.


Few things come to mind that Eldar can do pre and post Fall. 

1) Drop a Sun through the webway.
2) Black Hole in a Box.
3) Or the most reasonable way by fluff, shut down the Webway permanently from their side with total ease, but loses the Webgate forever. 



Scrad said:


> Like Child-of-the-Emperor said, the Eldar were still coming out of disarray due to the Fall. I've always taken the webway project held as a "this would have happened, it would have worked - everything was ruined by civil war/heresy and the events leading up to it" type scenario. The Eldar couldn't have done much by conventional means.


I disagree when we See in the Novel Fulgrim, and Legion the Eldar have more than recovered from the Fall (200 years is awhile) and were actively trying to avert the Heresy at said time before it happen.



Scrad said:


> We have no evidence to suggest the Eldar knew of the project but that being said - we don't have anything to suggest that they didn't know. One could base presumptions on the Eldar in the Cabal knowing of it, hence why it was an easier decision to plot the death of the entire Human race. Against this is the warnings sent to Fulgrim and other Primarchs warning of the HH.
> 
> It just doesn't seem likely that they knew.


Most Craftworlds act independent of the other. So while Eldrad and Ulthwe were trying to talk to Fulgrim, Iyaden or such might had foreseen the bad way it was going to end for the Emperor as it was, and chosen to ignore it. Happens alot in the fluff. Then we have Eldar and other Xenos like the Cabal in Legion Novel that be up to their own Agendas of what to do with what Foreseen knowledge. The Eldar are never on the same page half the time. 

Then we have the decadent Dark Eldar with the remaining Pre Fall Eldar Tech already in the Webway, as well the Eldar Laughing God and his Harlies. 

Its debatable if they knew or not, but if they did know, they would have no reason to act on it knowing what happen.


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Warlock in Training said:


> Few things come to mind that Eldar can do pre and post Fall.
> 
> 1) Drop a Sun through the webway.
> 2) Black Hole in a Box.
> 3) Or the most reasonable way by fluff, shut down the Webway permanently from their side with total ease, but loses the Webgate forever.


Fair. I'll focus on the third post mainly, but i can't see this not being thought out by the Emperor. Investing that much time and resources to the project. Remember Magnus was going to be groomed to keep it open via the Golden throne hinting at preparation for this since the onset of the primarch project. If they could be denied that easily then why would he bother? 

Sure the Eldar can shut down the webway from "their" side. But that should only close the connections to the Craftworlds and Maiden worlds. In theory, the undamaged sections would be clear. It's a huge network. They can't shut the Terra' based entry point because in fluff (or at least in the example of Gaunt's Ghosts) they'd need to be planetside when closing it. Something that would be next to impossible.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I have to disagree with you, Warlock.

First of all, neither _Fulgrim_ nor _Legion_ somehow prove that the Eldar had recovered. The former shows an entourage of Eldar of not significant size. The latter features an Eldar Autarch who is part of a Cabal of xenos. I don't see how that translates to the Eldar having the power and resources to somehow stop the Emperor.

More importantly, is there any quote where Eldrad (or any other Eldar, for that matter) is aware of the Emperor's Webway project? I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just not sure if there is one or not. It just strikes me as odd that the Eldar found the time to (A) try to warn the Emperor of Horus' treason and (B ) to sabotage him on account of _something completely different _(ensuring the universe doesn't slowly die)... but we never even get so much of a hint of a "block hole plot". If such a stunt were viable, the Eldar could have been solving oh so many problems like that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Scrad said:


> Fair. I'll focus on the third post mainly, but i can't see this not being thought out by the Emperor. Investing that much time and resources to the project. Remember Magnus was going to be groomed to keep it open via the Golden throne hinting at preparation for this since the onset of the primarch project. If they could be denied that easily then why would he bother?
> 
> Sure the Eldar can shut down the webway from "their" side. But that should only close the connections to the Craftworlds and Maiden worlds. In theory, the undamaged sections would be clear. It's a huge network. They can't shut the Terra' based entry point because in fluff (or at least in the example of Gaunt's Ghosts) they'd need to be planetside when closing it. Something that would be next to impossible.


IIRC, they shut Ahriman out from inside the Webway in Atlas Infernal, not having to step outside it into the maw of the Imperial forces at all. 



Phoebus said:


> I have to disagree with you, Warlock.
> 
> First of all, neither _Fulgrim_ nor _Legion_ somehow prove that the Eldar had recovered. The former shows an entourage of Eldar of not significant size. The latter features an Eldar Autarch who is part of a Cabal of xenos. I don't see how that translates to the Eldar having the power and resources to somehow stop the Emperor.
> 
> More importantly, is there any quote where Eldrad (or any other Eldar, for that matter) is aware of the Emperor's Webway project? I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just not sure if there is one or not. It just strikes me as odd that the Eldar found the time to (A) try to warn the Emperor of Horus' treason and (B ) to sabotage him on account of _something completely different _(ensuring the universe doesn't slowly die)... but we never even get so much of a hint of a "block hole plot". If such a stunt were viable, the Eldar could have been solving oh so many problems like that.


Actually the Eldar were no more fragmented 200 years after the fall than now. Fulgrim shows this as Craftworld Ulthwe was fully operational, had Aspect Warriors (meaning there was Phoenix lords already organizing Eldar), and had Wraithlords even! The Eldar (Craftworld and probably Harlies) were fully mobilize, and in stronger numbers too back then.

There is no direct statement or hint they knew of the Webway project, but we only have the View of 2 Eldar instances with foresight in HH novels. Eldrad and the Cabal. As far as fluff goes, and the fact they foresee every major disaster (Iyaden was forewarned by Ulthwe of the Kraken fleet before it happen, they ignored it for example) that will end their race. Why would they not see the Emperor hijacking their greatest asset? Thats PIS/WIS imo. 

Again its all assumption, but goes against the fluff if the Emperor was to take control of the Webway for the Eldar in character. Thats what I am saying. Sure a writer could write it the Eldar fall, but again, it goes against their fluff and feats.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> as well the Eldar Laughing God and his Harlies.


That's a damn funny image, a bunch of tall lanky jesters riding Harleys :laugh:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> That's a damn funny image, a bunch of tall lanky jesters riding Harleys :laugh:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I mean, I guess we can assume, for argument's sake that the Eldar knew what the Emperor intended for the Webway. They DEFINITELY knew that Horus was bad. They DEFINITELY knew that he was thrall to the Primordial Annihilator. Any which way you cut it, Horus was not better protected than the Emperor was. With that in mind, you can't argue that the Eldar possessed the tools to take out the most powerful mortal in the galaxy, in his all-powerful stronghold no less, when their only demonstrated effort to stop Horus amounted to "Please Fulgrim, listen to us!"


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> With that in mind, you can't argue that the Eldar possessed the tools to take out the most powerful mortal in the galaxy, in his all-powerful stronghold no less, when their only demonstrated effort to stop Horus amounted to "Please Fulgrim, listen to us!"


Actually I can argue it. Spider Man beaten Firelord in a straight up fight. Batman beat Darkseid faster than he was hit by omega beams. Both are classic examples of Plot Induce Stupidity or PIS for short. Eldar Fluff have shown the Eldar are fully capable of taking out the Emp or Horus with ease honestly. The fact they were written off is just bad writing. People do it all the time for sake of plot.

Add to that the Emp at his palace with Webway portal in his home is a Static location. UNLIKE Horus who was moving around a Galaxy with no Webway access to him, and had all 4 Chaos Gods watching over him. 

Big difference in itself as well.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Eldar Fluff have shown the Eldar are fully capable of taking out the Emp or Horus with ease honestly.


Nah, sorry, but no. Even if it for the sake of plot, I don't see any Eldar being capable of doing anything to primarchs aside Eldrad, and even that is overstretched. 

I would say Malcador would be a good match.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordOftheNight said:


> Nah, sorry, but no. Even if it for the sake of plot, I don't see any Eldar being capable of doing anything to primarchs aside Eldrad, and even that is overstretched.
> 
> I would say Malcador would be a good match.


It seems your still missing the point. Eldar in this scenario could not Straight Up Fight the Emp or what not. Everyone knows this. What Eldar outclass the Emp in is foresight powers, special uses of Psy abilities, technology, and overall knowledge. 

Eldar lore have the Eldar able to command the life and death of suns, perfect Plasma Tech, Blackhole weapons, Warp weapons as a standard, Power Armor like suits that weigh a ton less, Exarchs with the battle experience of 100s of lifetimes, the ability to transmutate foes into Glass, ect.....

The fact is they outclass anything Mechanicus, or even Dark Age Tech has shown, and can easily out predict the Emperor who was totally and easily blinded by the Chaos Powers in foresight. Eldar outclass the Imperium in abilities and tech. Simple as that.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

You're being unfair though. Eldar knew about chaos for milions of years. Primarchs and most of the imperium did not, aside Emperor. 

While Eldar's technology certainly is more superior when it comes to wide-general use, I'm quite sure some of the STC would come pretty close to Eldar's technology. Not to mention technology used by officio assassinorum, inquisition and so on isn't leaping far behind. 



> and can easily out predict the Emperor who was totally and easily blinded by the Chaos Powers in foresight


Didn't you mean Horus? Emperor was never blinded by Chaos powers aside denying his son's fall to ruinous powers.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordOftheNight said:


> You're being unfair though. Eldar knew about chaos for milions of years. Primarchs and most of the imperium did not, aside Emperor.
> 
> While Eldar's technology certainly is more superior when it comes to wide-general use, I'm quite sure some of the STC would come pretty close to Eldar's technology. Not to mention technology used by officio assassinorum, inquisition and so on isn't leaping far behind.
> 
> ...


Again I disagree. There is simply nothing nothing tech wise that comes close to Eldar and Necs. Blackstone Fortress? Eldar. C'tan blade? Necron. Things that are most advance for Imperium, plasma comes to mind, is far inferior. 

Also the emp was blinded by chaos many times. He was blinded by Chaos when the. Primarchs were taken. Blinded by Horus being a traitor when he was waging war. Blinded by Logar who was a traitor for two years before the Heresy. Emp was blinded by Tzeentch manipulating his most powerful Legion into his service, tricked by Tzeentch infact.

Emp in short is the most powerful Psyker, not the most finesse.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock, I'm not sure how else to explain the faulty logic of your argument.

You're comparing the Eldar - who demonstrably *did not* fight against either Horus or the Emperor - with individuals who *did* fight the foes you cite.

You keep citing technology that was *never* used against the foes in question. You're ignoring the fact that the Eldar lost at least one Craftworld during the Great Crusade. If the Eldar were able to use weaponized black hole technology against foes that mattered during the Great Crusade era, I'm pretty they would have done so in cases such as those illustrated in _Prospero Burns._. I'm pretty sure their attempts (assuming the Autarch aiding the Cabal wasn't a renegade) to thwart the Emperor and Horus would not have been limited to using secret agents and assassins.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

Just to throw in my two cents:

- I am reading the GK and BA codecies right now and I find nothing rivalling the Eldar or Necron technology.
- While the Eldar as a race have many tools and skills (preserved from the Fall), I doubt they had good chances at thwarting the Emperor’s webway project in the long run.
-- Ulthwé may have foreseen it all but may have not possessed the needed tools
-- Ulthwé may not even have had the tools to contact other Craftworlds to borrow such tools etc.
-- Especially so soon after the Fall as at the time of HH, Eldar may not have reinvented much of their capabilities. Paths, psychic runes and spirit stones were relatively new back then, how do we know if the Eldar had learned to use Black Holes in a Box with the new Chaos god around?
- The Emperor has access to the knowledge of ancient human shamans much in the same way as Exarchs and Farseers do. He has the knowledge and skills bargained from Chaos. He is the most powerful mortal psyker in the galaxy, for sure, and even if His inheritaged knowledge comes from only mammals, He has it. It is IMO a weird thought to regard Him as not skilled..

Ps. Comparing game effects and raw power between Eldar and other psykers is unfair, IMHO. Eldar can never use their full potential in fear of Slaanesh and that affects the psychic effects they produce. I guess buffs are easier for them to produce than DPS? I'd say Eldar seers are considerably more powerful than their game stats would suggest.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Warlock, I'm not sure how else to explain the faulty logic of your argument.
> 
> You're comparing the Eldar - who demonstrably *did not* fight against either Horus or the Emperor - with individuals who *did* fight the foes you cite.


To be fair, some Eldar did fight in the Heresy. Like the ones in Butcher's Nails, who tried to kill Angron.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Also the emp was blinded by chaos many times. He was blinded by Chaos when the. Primarchs were taken. Blinded by Horus being a traitor when he was waging war. Blinded by Logar who was a traitor for two years before the Heresy. Emp was blinded by Tzeentch manipulating his most powerful Legion into his service, tricked by Tzeentch infact.
> 
> Emp in short is the most powerful Psyker, not the most finesse.


I would note that the vast majority of the Eldar Race, while having 60 million years + of society and incredible finesse also got tricked by Chaos in a very cataclismic way.

Granted, in support of your point, Lorgar had turned traitor for 50+ years prior to the HH and the Emperor never seemed to sniff out that little surprise. (from First Heretic)


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I would note that the vast majority of the Eldar Race, while having 60 million years + of society and incredible finesse also got tricked by Chaos in a very cataclismic way.



Eldar seers foresaw the coming Fall. Thus why so many Craftworlds escape to begin with, and the Dark Eldar made many dimensions in the Webway. They were not blinded at all. They simply did not care, at least more than half did not care, and just dealed with it.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Warlock in Training said:


> Again I disagree. There is simply nothing nothing tech wise that comes close to Eldar and Necs. Blackstone Fortress? Eldar. C'tan blade? Necron. Things that are most advance for Imperium, plasma comes to mind, is far inferior.
> 
> Also the emp was blinded by chaos many times. He was blinded by Chaos when the. Primarchs were taken. Blinded by Horus being a traitor when he was waging war. Blinded by Logar who was a traitor for two years before the Heresy. Emp was blinded by Tzeentch manipulating his most powerful Legion into his service, tricked by Tzeentch infact.
> 
> Emp in short is the most powerful Psyker, not the most finesse.


Perhaps imp now tech is inferior but in old days of man thats another story there was this novel some sort of super ship the mechanicus have from old days it destroyed an eldar cruiser with one shot during a gravitational disturbance with pin point prefect accuracy with weapons called chorno canons


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Perhaps imp now tech is inferior but in old days of man thats another story there was this novel some sort of super ship the mechanicus have from old days it destroyed an eldar cruiser with one shot during a gravitational disturbance with pin point prefect accuracy with weapons called chorno canons


Sounds cool, do you have a citation?


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct the last part its spoiler from somethingc alled priests of mars reviewed in a special way


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Perhaps imp now tech is inferior but in old days of man thats another story there was this novel some sort of super ship the mechanicus have from old days it destroyed an eldar cruiser with one shot during a gravitational disturbance with pin point prefect accuracy with weapons called chorno canons


In the novel Demon World, a Chaos Lord had control of a Dark Age of Technology ship that granted him bone armor more durable than power armor, as well 3D constructs that appeared out of thin air like abilities.

Dark Age of tech has many great things, but none of it is mass produce like Eldar stuff.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Warlock in Training said:


> In the novel Demon World, a Chaos Lord had control of a Dark Age of Technology ship that granted him bone armor more durable than power armor, as well 3D constructs that appeared out of thin air like abilities.
> 
> Dark Age of tech has many great things, but none of it is mass produce like Eldar stuff.


Mainly cause humanity lost the knowledge required to mass produce that plus the mechanicum and its religious crap.

back in the old days we could shurn that out like one shurns out cookies.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Eldar seers foresaw the coming Fall. Thus why so many Craftworlds escape to begin with, and the Dark Eldar made many dimensions in the Webway. They were not blinded at all. They simply did not care, at least more than half did not care, and just dealed with it.


The driving theme of the Eldar in the 41st millennium is that they are a dying race. They didn't just "deal" with the Fall. The Craftworld Eldar were the ones that foresaw the Fall. They were a tiny, almost forgettable fraction of an incredibly vast empire. Even if each and every Craftworld IS the equivalent of a full-fledged planet (in terms of population, etc.), compared to the galactic civilization they once were, they amount to what the Jehova's' Witnesses are to in the United States. The Dark Eldar are the remnant of the mainstream of their race, which by no means was prepared for what was to come. That mainstream was absolutely annihilated.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> The driving theme of the Eldar in the 41st millennium is that they are a dying race. They didn't just "deal" with the Fall. The Craftworld Eldar were the ones that foresaw the Fall. They were a tiny, almost forgettable fraction of an incredibly vast empire. Even if each and every Craftworld IS the equivalent of a full-fledged planet (in terms of population, etc.), compared to the galactic civilization they once were, they amount to what the Jehova's' Witnesses are to in the United States. The Dark Eldar are the remnant of the mainstream of their race, which by no means was prepared for what was to come. That mainstream was absolutely annihilated.


Actually the Dark Eldar make up a large portion of the species that knew what was going to happen and prepare for it. Then you forget the Exodites of said craft worlds tha exist through the galaxy before the fall. The empire was crushed, but easily 1/4 of the Eldar race forsaw the danger and lived. Nowhere near the tiny amount your hyping here.


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Warlock in Training said:


> *Actually the Dark Eldar make up a large portion of the species that knew what was going to happen and prepare for it.* Then you forget the Exodites of said craft worlds tha exist through the galaxy before the fall. The empire was crushed, but easily* 1/4 of the Eldar race forsaw the danger and lived*. Nowhere near the tiny amount your hyping here.


I don't know where you're getting this info from? The Eldar that would later come to be known as Dark Eldar, largely did not know what was going to happen. They were blinded by their blatant disregard and hedonism. If you're insinuating that Commorragh was built to prepare for the fall that is incorrect:

"Building realms and outposts within the Webway to act as ports for inter-galactic travel, the city of Commorragh was founded. Isolated within the Webway, Commorragh itself soon became a bastion for pleasure cults and increasingly depraved acts" - Codex: Dark Eldar (5th Edition).

It was during this time that the maiden and craft world Eldar began to shy away from the rest of their race.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> ctually the Dark Eldar make up a large portion of the species that knew what was going to happen and prepare for it.


Source? To my knowledge the Dark Eldar are simply the descendents (or survivors) of the Fall because they simply had the fortune of partying in the webway during The Fall.

The reason why the Eldar that would become the Dark Eldar went to the webway is, as their Codex states, "They relocated their power bases into the labyrinth dimension known as the webway, for such was their influence that they could command entire sub-realms to be crafted in which to continue their debased works."

Furthermore it goes to say that the *first* to foresee The Fall and escape were the Exodites--note that this happened AFTER the ancestors of the Dark Eldar entered the Webway. If their ancestors fled to the webway to endure The Fall, they (the Dark Eldar ancestors) would have been first, not the Exodites.



Warlock in Training said:


> The empire was crushed, but easily 1/4 of the Eldar race forsaw the danger and lived


Wow, really, 1/4th? Source, please?


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Start using sources or clearly satte that it it your theory based on this and that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Scrad said:


> I don't know where you're getting this info from? The Eldar that would later come to be known as Dark Eldar, largely did not know what was going to happen. They were blinded by their blatant disregard and hedonism. If you're insinuating that Commorragh was built to prepare for the fall that is incorrect:
> 
> "Building realms and outposts within the Webway to act as ports for inter-galactic travel, the city of Commorragh was founded. Isolated within the Webway, Commorragh itself soon became a bastion for pleasure cults and increasingly depraved acts" - Codex: Dark Eldar (5th Edition).
> 
> It was during this time that the maiden and craft world Eldar began to shy away from the rest of their race.





hailene said:


> Source? To my knowledge the Dark Eldar are simply the descendents (or survivors) of the Fall because they simply had the fortune of partying in the webway during The Fall.
> 
> The reason why the Eldar that would become the Dark Eldar went to the webway is, as their Codex states, "They relocated their power bases into the labyrinth dimension known as the webway, for such was their influence that they could command entire sub-realms to be crafted in which to continue their debased works."
> 
> ...


Absolutely right on the Dark Eldar. I rechecked, and it was Exodites and Craftworld I was remembering. Quotes in the uploads of how the Exodites and Craftworld were the ones that foresaw the destruction.

As for the my random 1/4th number, this is base purely on my common sense and logic .

The Eldar Civilization was based around the Eye of Terror. The Eye of Terror only makes up 1/10 at most of the galaxy. The Eldar Empire was the WHOLE GALAXY, which means many Exodite or Maiden Worlds (Which are in codexes and fluff) populated by Eldar that remained untouched. Add in all the Dark Eldar in the Webway, and the 10+ Craftworld Eldar on their country size ships make me fully believe in no way in hell could the fall killed more than 3 quarters of the race. By statistics that should be impossible, and supported in my view of the many ways Eldar survived or out right avoided the major disaster zone that is the EoT. 

I cannot be convince anyway they were so nearly wiped out. Especially when in the codex its states the Eldar Birth Cycle cannot compete with the other races which is why the (key word here) Declined over time. Not nearly wiped out to extinction, they were declining over 10,000 year period to it.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Absolutely right on the Dark Eldar. I rechecked, and it was Exodites and Craftworld I was remembering. Quotes in the uploads of how the Exodites and Craftworld were the ones that foresaw the destruction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Resuring that a tiny proportion of the race reach safty" "most where overwhelmed" "some survived hundreds or thousands of years" 

So the majority of that tiny proportion died out within some thousands of years. Older codexes also states that only the exodites on the furthers fringes where untunched. All o the galaxy without its fringes should be more like 9/10 instead of 1/10 of the eldar being effected by the Fall. 

Now I don't know how many eldar resided within the webway at the time of the Fall, niether how many gled to become exodites. But with the wording above I would estimate that mostly 1-10% survived the fall. 

This is also taken into account real world examples as how many Sweds emigrated to the US during the 1870-1920th.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Eldar Civilization was based around the Eye of Terror. The Eye of Terror only makes up 1/10 at most of the galaxy. The Eldar Empire was the WHOLE GALAXY, which means many Exodite or Maiden Worlds (Which are in codexes and fluff) populated by Eldar that remained untouched.


The Maiden Worlds were, by definition pretty much, uninhabited at the time of the Fall, most remain so. The Eldar Empire wasn't like the Imperium, it didn't stretch from one end of the galaxy to the other in a string of occupied worlds. The Eldar Empire ruled the galaxy simply because the Eldar were untouchable in their might. Aliens were all over the galaxy during this time while the Eldar remained primarily in the area that would become the Eye. That's how humanity was able to spread across the stars, to occupy large parts of the current Imperium, while the Eldar were still ascendent. The Eldar didn't live everywhere, but they ruled everywhere.

The Eye ripped away the entire heart of the Eldar Empire and almost the entire race died.



> Add in all the Dark Eldar in the Webway, and the 10+ Craftworld Eldar on their country size ships make me fully believe in no way in hell could the fall killed more than 3 quarters of the race. By statistics that should be impossible,


I'm curious as to what statistics you're using to support the idea that the Eldar Empire, a race of such power and plenty that it ruled the entire galaxy with unquestioned might for millennia, was around 100 worlds in size (since the Craftworlder's have around 10 worlds if we're generous and the DE maybe half as much again with the Exodites being negligible in comparison). The Imperium is a million worlds and it's reign is not as unquestioned as the Eldar's was. While technological and psychic ability certainly contributed to their dominance, there's simply no way they could've been the galacitc power with an empire that size. 



> I cannot be convince anyway they were so nearly wiped out. Especially when in the codex its states the Eldar Birth Cycle cannot compete with the other races which is why the (key word here) Declined over time. Not nearly wiped out to extinction, they were declining over 10,000 year period to it.


The Eldar codecii's both state that the Fall was an apocalypse and that the race basically died on that day. There simply isn't enough time since the Fall for slow breeding to have crippled the Eldar so extensively, seeing as their only like one or two generations out.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Eye of Terror only makes up 1/10 at most of the galaxy. The Eldar Empire was the WHOLE GALAXY, which means many Exodite or Maiden Worlds (Which are in codexes and fluff) populated by Eldar that remained untouched.


Their Codex states that only the farthest Exodite and Craftworlds survived The Fall. The rest of the Eldar (the great majority) were overwhelmed during her birth.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

At the end of the day, there is no real numbers given, and only our use of logic. Mine thinks its rather ignorant to think they all nearly died, and at the least 25% (thats being unfair too imo) survived. 

Unless you have real numbers (I love real numbers) its my opinion vs your own 



hailene said:


> Their Codex states that only the farthest Exodite and Craftworlds survived The Fall. The rest of the Eldar (the great majority) were overwhelmed during her birth.


The same Codex also states Craftworlds too close to the EoT were not killed or harmed in any way, like the one Magna Ra pulled out of the EoT cause it was Too Close. Why should Exodite worlds half a galaxy away be affected? Why is there Exodite Worlds less than half the galaxy away from the EoT exist still, as in the Exodite Worlds located within the areas of Segmentum Pacificus, Tempustus, and Obscurus which are all located near the EoT. (See Scan Below)
Also the source states all Orks and Humans died in the area of the Eldar as well, yet.... Terra is perfectly fine right next door! (See Scan below again) So why should Eldar half a Galaxy away be affected at all?

Contradicting evidence to the wording.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> At the end of the day, there is no real numbers given, and only our use of logic. Mine thinks its rather ignorant to think they all nearly died, and at the least 25% (thats being unfair too imo) survived.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well the codex do state that the craftworlds rode out the psychic backlash while eldars within thousands of lightyears away turned to lifeless husks. As I read it I think craftworld eldars where shielded against slaanesh's birth but succumbed to other causes directly or indirectly associated with the Fall. 

We also know from our codex that some craftworlds has colonized maiden worlds post-fall and these could easily be the closer exodite worlds you are refering to. 

This could be explained with how I see the big part of 40k fluff. That it is more or less written with an Imperial point of view and for them an Eldar is an Eldar despite if they wear strawhats and grow potatoes, they live in continent-sized spaceships, they dance and wear funny custumes or they pop up from nowhere just to sew you and your pet together while feeding on your soul. Just another Eldar in the eye of a human.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Unless you have real numbers (I love real numbers) its my opinion vs your own


That's fine to have your own opinion. Stating your opinion as if it was fact (particularly the use of "easily") is not.



Warlock in Training said:


> he same Codex also states Craftworlds too close to the EoT were not killed or harmed in any way, like the one Magna Ra pulled out of the EoT cause it was Too Close.


Source?

The codex merely states that Altansar "rode out the initial psychic shockwaves" of the Fall and that it "was subsequently caught in the gravity well of the Eye of Terror".

Page 8 of the Codex states that "*All* Eldar within thousands of light years [from the epicenter] were reduced to lifeless husks...Even those who had foreseen the catastrophe and fled upon the craftwords were overwhelmed, with only those *furthest* from the devastation surviving."

So we know that 1. Altansar was at least several thousands of light years away from the center, and that2. it was still sucked in some time later. 

That's it. Nothing about it being too close to the epicenter to be destroyed.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also the source states all Orks and Humans died in the area of the Eldar as wel


There we probably humans around where the Eye of Terror is (this being during Old Night) and we all know the Orks are everywhere. I wouldn't find it surprising billions of humans and Orks died when the Eye of Terror came to be.



Warlock in Training said:


> So why should Eldar half a Galaxy away be affected at all?


Several reasons I could think of:

1. Slaanesh was born from "suckling upon the dark fodder of the Eldar spirit". There's a direct connection.

2. The "psychic shockwave [of Slaanesh's birth] focused on the Eldar"...
~~~~~~~~

I mean, to use a bit of deductive reasoning you're so fond of, how could the Eldar go from a galaxy-dominating civilization to know they are "doomed" if some 25-30% of the civilization survived? That's a significant portion.

Remember, their technology, culture, and other knowledge remained in tact after the Fall. It's not like humanity where we've forgotten how to manufacture most of our technology.

It's purely a number reason why the Eldar are a weakened race.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> That's fine to have your own opinion. Stating your opinion as if it was fact (particularly the use of "easily") is not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You stated the source, Codex Eldar 4th edition. The Craftworld was so close to the EoT it was sucked back in. Thats as close as you can get. Period. Yet none of those Eldar instant died like some craftworlds stated to have caught to close.




hailene said:


> Page 8 of the Codex states that "*All* Eldar within thousands of light years [from the epicenter] were reduced to lifeless husks...Even those who had foreseen the catastrophe and fled upon the craftwords were overwhelmed, with only those *furthest* from the devastation surviving."
> 
> So we know that 1. Altansar was at least several thousands of light years away from the center, and that2. it was still sucked in some time later.
> 
> That's it. Nothing about it being too close to the epicenter to be destroyed.


Do you have any clue how far several thousand Light Years is? Its not far at all my friend.

"The Milky Way contains over 200 billion stars, and enough dust and gas to make billions more. The solar system lies about 30,000 light-years from the galactic center, and about 20 light-years above the plane of the galaxy. More than half the stars found in the Milky Way are older than the 4.5 billion year old sun."
www.space.com/19915-milky-way-galaxy.html space.com

Seriously, 7 thousand Light Years is barely any distance overall. Also Terra which is close to the EoT was UNTOUCHED by the soul sucking as well. Even though it states all these Humans and Orks died with Eldar as well.





hailene said:


> There we probably humans around where the Eye of Terror is (this being during Old Night) and we all know the Orks are everywhere. I wouldn't find it surprising billions of humans and Orks died when the Eye of Terror came to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I explained above the deductive reasoning of Glaxy length to Eldar populating all the Galaxy in some form or another. As for why the Eldar decline, I explain already from the Codex itself. it has nothing to do with numbers, but it has to do with several facts.

1) Eldar low Birth Cycle is laughable to the other races. Meaning in time they would be overwhelmed anyway.

2) Eldar lost the major numbers with the fall, and were in disarray as a civilization. They also lost their Warp Gods. That stings.

3) The other races after the Fall had the time and space needed to boom out of control to overwhelm the depopulated and disarrayed Eldar.

This is all explained in the codex wording when read. At least to me. 



hailene said:


> Remember, their technology, culture, and other knowledge remained in tact after the Fall. It's not like humanity where we've forgotten how to manufacture most of our technology.
> 
> It's purely a number reason why the Eldar are a weakened race.


Yes, there is a number of reasons. I never said otherwise. Eldar after the fall were not incompetent though after 200 years (toward the end of the Great Crusade) which is the Original Topic is discussing. They could and should beat back the Emp easy after 200 years of foresight, Aspects being made, and relationships reforged. As well having more Eldar Numbers 200 years after the fall compared to 10,000 years after the fall.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

God damn it. Why does the back button erase all of our post? 



Warlock in Training said:


> he Craftworld was so close to the EoT it was sucked back in.


No, it didn't. Read it carefully. As I said, all we know is that it rode out the psychic turmoil and that at some later day it was sucked in by the gravity of the Eye of Terror.

Never that it was near the Eye of Terror when it was created.

You _can_ interpret that it was, but it is never stated to be so. Assumptions are dangerous.

Equally plausible is that they rode out the psychic waves farther out, then swung back to check out the Eldar heartland and got too close.




Warlock in Training said:


> Do you have any clue how far several thousand Light Years is? Its not far at all my friend.


It only states that Eldar within a few thousand light years became lifeless husks and their souls claimed. Other Eldar, farther out, may have simply died.

We know for a fact that Eldar within a few thousand light years became husks and lost their souls and that only the farthest Craftworlds survived. Those are indisputable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I won't get into the nitty gritty about how strong the Eldar civilization was.

If you want to believe that 1/4th of the Eldar survived the Fall, go for it. I personally do not see, even with the reasons you listed, how they could go from the absolute undisputed masters of the Milky Way to a "doomed" people by losing only 3/4ths of their people. It's too big of a jump.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> God damn it. Why does the back button erase all of our post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree to Disagree then


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