# 5th edition impact on Chaos Space Marines



## killmaimburn

Hi, I've looked over the 5th edition rules and they seem to give a lot of potential to certain aspects of the newest chaos space marine codex. One of the first things I considered was the new vehicle damage tables/running HUGELY improving khorne berzerkers. I'm just looking for input and your opinions/experiences with 5th edition, if you have any. 

1 more thing, is a chaos lord with a juggernaut daemonic steed actually playable competitively now in your opinions?


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## Vrykolas2k

Well, you won't want to run your berzerkers so close that they're the ones who get assaulted, thus screwing you out of your furious charge.
Really, they're going to draw about as much fire as they ever have, since your opponent will probably keep running away.


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## Untitled401

Vrykolas2k said:


> Well, you won't want to run your berzerkers so close that they're the ones who get assaulted, thus screwing you out of your furious charge.
> Really, they're going to draw about as much fire as they ever have, since your opponent will probably keep running away.


No one is going to make them run into a position where they will be fired at unless someone wants to risk that or they're stupid...

But that aside, possessed now have a better chance of getting into combat aswell which helps a bit.

A nice little lord configuration that i will be running soon is this:
Chaos Lord 
Mark of Slaanesh 
Daemon Weapon 
Personal Icon 
Mount of Slaanesh 
170pts

This bad boy has the possibilty of a first turn assult. Moving 6, fleet, assult 12inches! (note that it only works on a 4x4 table with both me and my opponent deploying units at exactly 12inches. On top of first turn assult, daemon weapons of slaanesh cause instant death regardless of toughness and my lord has a personal icon so my termi's and lesser daemons can deep-strike without scattering mwahahahahaaaaaaa!!!

Other things i find awesome is my defilers. With new rules stating that any assult on a vehicle is always against its rear armour value, walkers are not affected by this rule so what ever side you charge them on is the armour value that it actually is. Plus, many people dont know that defilers have fleet and if you give them the extra 2 free drednaught arms, thats 6 str 10 attacks on a charge which will smack any landraider or monolith without any trouble and against a unit with str 5 or lower cant even hurt its front or side. 

Thats all i can think of for now but im sure theres more


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## killmaimburn

Thanks for the advice so far...but Untitled, I don't think that the steed of slaanesh grants fleet, does it? I don't have my codex on me now but your first turn assault is impossible because if you run, you can't charge. Please correct me if I missed something.


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## Untitled401

killmaimburn said:


> Thanks for the advice so far...but Untitled, I don't think that the steed of slaanesh grants fleet, does it? I don't have my codex on me now but your first turn assault is impossible because if you run, you can't charge. Please correct me if I missed something.


My lord counts as a cavalry unit on a mount of slaanesh. In the rule book it states that all cavalry units get the fleet special rule so i may assult after running the extra D6.


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## chaos vince

one of the things that i have found is horribly nasty in 5th is a mech army of tzeench. they all count as stationary when firing so when they bail out of the rhinos they still have the 24' range and the transports give them the range that they were lacking. paired with d princes they are just plain nasty. i've been workin on a slaanesh/tzeench army that'll be pretty bad too. as far as khorne goes i think big squads are still the way to go since they will be almost impossible to knock below scoring and won't provide the enamy with a whole lot of kill points the way that rhino transported squads will


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## Vrykolas2k

Untitled401 said:


> No one is going to make them run into a position where they will be fired at unless someone wants to risk that or they're stupid...



There are a lot of variables to that: how much terrain is in play?
Where did each person deploy their squads?
Stupidity is probably not a factor.
Egotism on message boards is occasionally, I suppose...


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## Syko515

i have yet to look at the new 5th rules, and am finding this thread particularly interesting. i'm curious, no one has mentioned the advent of the better landraiders due to the new damage table? why not throw your KB's in that?


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## killmaimburn

Sorry about that Untitled, missed that part of the rules ...Well I would use a LR but I don't have the model or the inclination to buy it...however, the new vehicle rules and tables mean that the turn I use smoke launchers they won't do anything more than immobilize my Rhino unless they can roll 4's twice or destroy a weapon twice...which seems ok to me because my list runs 3 berzerker squads in rhinos, 1 plague marine squad in a rhino, 2 defilers, and a daemon prince...I don't think they have enuff heavy weaponry to devastate me they way they could in 4th ed. Once again, thanks to everyone for the posts and I would still like to know, can someone tell me a reason to be for or against daemonic steeds, specifically nurgle's steed and khorne's steed (forgot names)


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## Vrykolas2k

Syko515 said:


> i have yet to look at the new 5th rules, and am finding this thread particularly interesting. i'm curious, no one has mentioned the advent of the better landraiders due to the new damage table? why not throw your KB's in that?




Some people like to run bigger squads of Berzerkers, which don't fit in land raiders... some even like to run squads of the various chaos marines according to their god's "magic number".
As for the OP... Lords on steeds count as cavalry units. Personally, I wouldn't dream of running a Khorne Lord without a steed. If only because the opponent tends to fear them. The additions to stats are nice as well...


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## killmaimburn

Vrykolas2k said:


> Some people like to run bigger squads of Berzerkers, which don't fit in land raiders... some even like to run squads of the various chaos marines according to their god's "magic number".
> As for the OP... Lords on steeds count as cavalry units. Personally, I wouldn't dream of running a Khorne Lord without a steed. If only because the opponent tends to fear them. The additions to stats are nice as well...


I'm sorry to say that this is not true, because in the codex it states explicitly that while the mount of slaanesh changes the type of the model form infantry to cavalry, and the disk of tzeentch turns them into jump infantry, for the khorne and nurgle steeds no extra movement is awarded. The entry for the juggernaut of khorne states that the model "cannot be carried in transports, *exactly as if it was a cavalry model*. This means that the lord will footslog at 6", and run without being able to subsequently charge in the same turn under 5th ed rules. However, given the fact that lords on juggernauts now CAN run, I think they may be viable if they accompany a squad of running Khorne Berzerkers or if they run behind a rhino. Can someone give me some feedback on such a strategy?


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## LordWaffles

Anyone else feel the powerfist bite? I've started ripping fists off everything but chosen.

Also the sudden loss of the safety of our icon bearer. We can't just shove the icon on the champ and know he'll be around forever.


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## Son of mortarion

The powerfist bite was never an issue for me, I usually either leave the fists at the armoury, or take a loadout of gear that lends to a generalist strategy. I do see where it hurts 'zerker armies, since they are usually light on high strength weapons.


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## DarKKKKK

Whats the deal with the walker rules and the new run rules. I had heard that no matter how far you move, including running, walkers can still shoot everything they have. Is this true or not because this effects heavily on my loadout for my defilers.


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## Pseudo

DarKKKKK said:


> Whats the deal with the walker rules and the new run rules. I had heard that no matter how far you move, including running, walkers can still shoot everything they have. Is this true or not because this effects heavily on my loadout for my defilers.


You most definately cannot run and shoot weapons on a Walker (although you can activate smoke launchers if you run)!

However, a Walker can still move 6" in the movement phase and count as though it were stationary for firing purposes (note - this does not allow your Defiler to shoot it's battlecannon and other guns, because if you fire ordnance you can't fire anything else). 



Untitled401 said:


> This bad boy has the possibilty of a first turn assult. Moving 6, fleet, assult 12inches! (note that it only works on a 4x4 table with both me and my opponent deploying units at exactly 12inches.


I'd just like to point out that you can't get first turn assault, because you have to deploy _more than_ 12" from the middle of the board (and thus more than 24" from your opponent). Even if it's 12" and 1mm, that's still 1mm out of assault range. :biggrin:



As for tactics, with the new vehicle damage charts (and other Walker-tastic rules, such as running and no glances if they lose combat) I'm reconsidering taking Dreadnoughts.

Either running two with 2x CCW each, keeping them together so if they fire frenzy they shoot one another - still annoying, but at least they can't harm one another.

Or a Dreadnought with plasma cannon and missile launcher, keeping it next to my Land Raider (which it also can't possible damage on a fire frenzy - yay for S7 blasts and S4 frag missiles!).

Chaos Dreadnoughts did get some nerfs though - with the addition of running, the 'fleet' you get from blood frenzy is less spiffy, and with TLoS it's harder to keep them out of LoS of your own troops for those fire frenzy rolls.


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## Syko515

frankly the powerfist nerfing sucked for my as i tend to be a tad heavy on the CC without being Khorne dedicated. i find it makes up for my plague marins lack of willingness to actually do damage in CC.{dice gods hate me...} i too have started ripping them off aspiring champions in favor of power swords or axes instead.


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## MindFreaky

Howzit Guys

I haven't been able to afford the 5th ed rulebook as yet, :angry: but payday is Friday!

When you guys talk about the Powerfist nerf, what do you mean?

Cheers


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## Templar-Sun

You only get additional cc attacks with it if you have two fists.

I have a proposal on the slaanesh mounted deal. How about a Slaanesh sorcerer on mount with lash...:O Almost assured to get into combat first turn with 6 attacks from a force weapon. Force weapon instead of DW but does get extra attack for bp and no worries about rolling a one. 

I need to go look for a model now!!


Templar-Sun


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## Juiceypoop

Templar-Sun said:


> You only get additional cc attacks with it if you have two fists.
> 
> I have a proposal on the slaanesh mounted deal. How about a Slaanesh sorcerer on mount with lash...:O Almost assured to get into combat first turn with 6 attacks from a force weapon. Force weapon instead of DW but does get extra attack for bp and no worries about rolling a one.
> 
> I need to go look for a model now!!
> 
> 
> Templar-Sun


Except that lash is used in the shooting faze, wich means you can't use it and fleet in the same turn, and thus can't get a first turn assault, although if you had a lord with a steed and a sorceror, the sorceror could try lashing your enemy into charge range of the lord.


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## Templar-Sun

Move 6", lash enemy unit, assault 12". I did forget about lash being shooting but its still possible if you roll a 7 or higher. A bit more risky than I thought tho. Especially since one lascannon shot can drop him...lol


Templar-Sun


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## LordWaffles

You can see how much I take mounted sorcerors. Gah.


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## Templar-Sun

Huh? I beg to differ.


Templar-Sun


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## LordWaffles

-SOMEONE- didn't read his codex well. hahahah...

Accursed tiny middle of the page blatantly obvious text, why must you confound me!


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## Templar-Sun

Lol


Templar-Sun


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## hurt-wm

Raiders just got a whole lot better, I think. Let's see you lash a raider!


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## Orc Town Grot

Some of the the new rules are good at refreshing some neglected units for Chaos! As you observed smoke on Rhinos is now really good, and Rhinos can also ram! ha! That gives them heaps of value for their lower cost! All the Chaos steeds are fine, but why not just stick with the Daemon prince. For the points you already get wounds, strength, toughess, monstrous creature status and being a sorceror! The Mark of Slaneesh and Lash of Submission is a well proven combo, but Warptime is also a good one, and of course wings are all the steed you ever need! 

The main 5th ED changes to consider are Kill points in annihilation and capturing objectives in other scenarios. The good thing for Chaos with this rule is that your troops choices allow up to 20 troops in most squads, so you have the capacity to make your troops large and resilient.

The problem is fielding enough troops and enough anti-tank with the limited number of points since individual units can cost so much. So after the HQ and troops choices both with and without rhinos there will be a lot less left over to put in elite, heavy and fast choices then used to be the case. With 4th you could take 2 minimal troop squads and load up on "better things"! NO more! Your troops are your army core now, so they have to be strong and able to multitask! Chaos squads CAN! HAha! 

The landraider may have a rebirth since no one has planned on fighting one for so long, but the paper to that rock (and killer of defilers too) is still Tau broadsides. Thus the commonly employed, seperate, deep striking obliterators are still great.
And defilers are very good but they have a big target profile. Dreadnaughts with extra close combat arm are a nice, smaller and cheaper substitute. You simply cannot give them a big gun than a bolter because deployment means they are too much a threat to kill your own units when crazed. Vindicators, while potentially game winning are not much good because firing range and the need to be immobile to shoot makes them liable to the new assault rules. I can see a two dreadnaught, two obliterator, two demon prince spine backed up by for four squads of troops, 2 smaller in rhinos, and 2 larger running. The whole army splits neatly into two equal sized groups which means you could split the lot neatly between two marks. The rhinos and their smoke would be vital as mobile LOS blockers.

The other big new thing in 5th is how much better templates are. For chaos marines this probably means flamers, which can be taken in pretty large numbers, and as assualt weapon can be used in mobile warfare. They are just the answer for the advent of the viable ork horde and the ever irritating gaunt waves of nids. But this will leave you a little short of Anti tank shooting. 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns and melta bombs?

I think 5th ED itself is great, and most armies get some new viabilities in it. The real fun will be in playing and running up against good lists that beat up our present best idea, and make us work on the problem of how to make a list that can be competitive against TAU and tri-falcon eldar, and nid-zilla AND ork-horde! since there is no list that is perfect against the full range of possible opponents, the nuances in personal choices become more intriguing. 

It is not viable to put all the eggs in one basket any more. All flamers and no meltaguns will suffer against big things, all melta guns will falter against hordes! Vindicators may be nurfed by their short range, but the great thing is, if they become rare, no one will expect them. Changing a model from time to time will add spice to club play!


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## BlackHandofHorus

Untitled401 said:


> Other things i find awesome is my defilers. With new rules stating that any assult on a vehicle is always against its rear armour value, walkers are not affected by this rule so what ever side you charge them on is the armour value that it actually is. Plus, many people dont know that defilers have fleet and if you give them the extra 2 free drednaught arms, thats 6 str 10 attacks on a charge which will smack any landraider or monolith without any trouble and against a unit with str 5 or lower cant even hurt its front or side.
> 
> Thats all i can think of for now but im sure theres more


*I think it actually says that due to their maneuverability walkers always get the benefit of front armor in closes combat. Which makes them even better :grin: I remember this because in a game last week i thought my defiler was gone after a strength 11 hit in combat in the very first turn, when around turn 4 i look at my 5th ed book and surely enough i shouldve been using using that puppies pie plates for the last 3 turns. *


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## Talos

why is everybody saying smoke is better I think its alot worse now it only gives you a 4+ cover save still a chance they kill your rhinos.


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## Pseudo

The current smoke is worse for transports like rhinos.

A MBT like a predator has a hefty chance to lose it's ability to shoot if it gets glanced, so it's preferable to take the chance of it avoiding damage entirely rather than get an auto-glance.

A rhino with extra armor, however, only cares if it gets immobilised (or destroyed). So it isn't really bothered about getting glanced because it can safely ignore most of the results (shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed).

Still, the current smoke is better than a kick in the teeth AND the new vehicle damage rules more than balance things out, leaving rhinos better off over-all.


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## killmaimburn

If I could have the old obscured vehicle/smoke launcher rules with the new vehicle tables, I'd be in khorne berzerker heaven


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