# Great Baals of Fire (The role of flame tanks in the new BA dex?)



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Alright, with the new codex available for viewing at most stores, it's fair to say this can graduate out of rumors and into tactics. Flame tanks are now a big part of the BA arsenal and I think it's time for a discussion on their relative worth and implementation.

Just as a recap for those not yet able to peruse the new dex:

* All rhino-chasis tanks are Fast now, including whirlies, preds and vindis.
* Baal Predators are FA now, are Fast AND have Scouts.
* Baal Predators may replace their TLAC with the Redeemer's ultra-flamer for Free. HF sponsons are also still available.
* Land Raiders are NOT Fast, but may now Deep Strike. They are no longer HS, but are a Dedicated Transport option for *any* transportable unit. Redeemers are now part of the Arsenal. Units inside the raider may NOT assault on the turn they arrive from DS
* Razorbacks can upgrade from TLHB to TLHF for free.

So with so many flame tank options available, I ask: Are they worthy? How should they be configured? How should they be implemented?

In the past I always strongly discouraged flamer sponsons on Baals, I don't like flamer sponsons in general because it's nearly impossible to get both templates to hit the same unit, so you're basically paying double for one weapon, and it forces the tank with its flimsy rear armor to get into Assault range.

It's not so bad with Redeemers because they are more than strong enough to withstand most assaults, and even a single flamestorm template can wreak havoc, especially combined with the rest of the tank's formidable arsenal.

But what about turret flamers? It's easier to get a razorback or baal's turret mounted template dispenser on target, especialy if you pull up broadside (though the rear-mounted turret on razors is problematic. Expect players to move it more towards the center or even rig up a pintle mount setup), so are they worth it?

The Baal can easily get within hosing range on Turn 1 thanks to their Scout move and Fast nature. If you're dedicated to the flamestorm turret, should you just fully commit and take flamer spoinsons too, or is it wiser to opt for heavy bolters and give yourself a little more reach? Is the flamestorm just a waste and the Assault Cannon should remain in place?

What about Razorbacks? Their nature as transports means they have to get close to the enemy anyway, should you just turn them into cheap Immolators and go baals deep, or just keep your distance?

How about Redeemers? Deepstriking a land raider full of people seems a bit risky, but it could pay of fin spades. If you're going to drop close, should you just go for the close range weapons? You don't need the reach of a lascannon if you're landinig within striking distance. But if your complement can't assault, you need to hold out for at least a turn in no-man's land...should you spend that time rampaging around their rear lines doing as much damage as you can, or should you pull back a bit and move back in next turn?


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Galahad said:


> The Baal can easily get within hosing range on Turn 1 thanks to their Scout move and Fast nature. If you're dedicated to the flamestorm turret, should you just fully commit and take flamer spoinsons too, or is it wiser to opt for heavy bolters and give yourself a little more reach? Is the flamestorm just a waste and the Assault Cannon should remain in place?
> 
> What about Razorbacks? Their nature as transports means they have to get close to the enemy anyway, should you just turn them into cheap Immolators and go baals deep, or just keep your distance?


I think if you are going to go for the flamer turret, you might as well grab the flamer sponsons. Going HB would be a waste of the range since you are obviously going to be rushing it forward to immolate something. Besides, having a second, maybe third template hit would be better then the few extra hits of HBs.

I like the option of flamestorms, but I think the asscans remain a better value most of the time. You will most likely hit with all four hits of the asscan, shred most light to to medium infantry and have a chance to hurt even Landraiders if you have to. Plus with two HBs thats 10 shots at 6 inch movement with 7-8 of them hitting. I actually like this loadout better vs hordes then the flamer option. Shred some orks or nids without getting in assault range. It's not totally inconcievable to take out any of the big nasties in a nid list with the asscan/HB loadout in one turn with good rolls and even if you don't kill it, you knock it down a peg or two. Popping transports is easier with this loadout as well.

I like the flamer loadout better against MEQ. You get the AP to ignore the armor on the big flamer, and just overload with more wounds using the lesser flamers.

I do like the razorback flamers. As you said, you will most likely be getting close anyway, so having an AP3 template to drop is nice. It will work wonders for clearing that objective sitting in cover so your squad inside can contest or even claim. Much better then other options for objective grabbing imo.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The razorback flamer option is just a TL Heavy Flamer, so it's AP4, but still not a bad option


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

For me, the only flamer worth taking on a vehicle are the flamestorm cannons on Land Raider Redeemers. This is because Redeemers are tough nuts to crack and can often survive long enough to get close to use their nasty close-ranged weaponry. Plus, flamestorm cannons are considerably more deadly than heavy flamers.

On Baal Predators and Razorbacks, it feels to me like one would be better served staying back and spraying the enemy with all of those lovely multiple shot weapons. Sure, you need to roll to hit unlike a flamer, but with so many shots (and since a good number are twin-linked) you'll usually be getting a respectable number of hits.

The Baal Predator should imo be run with a twin-linked assault cannon and heavy bolter sponsons. Hang out within 24" of your preferred targets and use the Predator's Fast movement to be able to move and shoot all of your weapons. 4 twin-linked assault cannons shots and six heavy bolters shots will take huge chunks out of units like Boyz and Gaunts and will almost undoubtedly kill a respectable number of MEQs. If you take two Baal Predators, there are few units in the game that can just shrug off combined fire.

For the Razorback, just hang back and move 12" a turn while firing the twin-linked heavy bolter. Razorbacks perform their best when inside your deployment zone rather than rushing straight into the teeth of the enemy's guns - that's why they call an aggressive rush the Rhino Rush after all.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I find when going flamer baals all round you need 2 for this reason say there is 3 units of troops advancing or infantry base units advancing, might orks/nids/necrons or even a foot slogging marine whose lost his transport etc...

If they have a set-up in a line/wave or slightly overlapping 2 Flaals (flamer baals) will work nicely as the templates will over lap and not be wasted (aka you have one nothing shot). 










http://s612.photobucket.com/albums/tt207/SamuelBriggs/?action=view&current=Untitled.jpg if said image doesn't work

- the one on the right uses it's cannon and one sponon to attack the right hand squad the middel squad is attacked by its lefthand side sponson flamer, the baal to the left uses it's cannon and sponson to attack the left and then uses it's righthand sponson to flame the middle unit meaning 2 flamer templates are each going into the squads, the outer squads recieving a more damaging flaming though.

This is probably the most viable setup for them but they leave themselves open for assault as they have to get so close.

I find this can work well but you need to know your opponent is a horde style player otherwise it can be wasted points as it really has best effectiveness on the overlap horde or mass wave line horde.

For most other things I believe baals should stay assault cannon and heavy bolter sponsons as they deal with heavier infantry better as it's from distance and heavier troops are usually small in number so have a lesser chance of hitting the baals before they are weakend dramatically.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Blue Liger said:


> (the line steup is slightly off skewed the first baal * is in the right place hopefull it gives you the idea I'm getting at)


'Fraid not. I'm completely lost. Maybe use Vassal or MS Paint or something?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I think people are underestimating the Scout move. The ability to run 18" then up to another 6" and still shoot all weapons (or 12" and Flamestorm) is very nice, especially in multiples. The enemy spends his turn one taking out both Preds (I see 2 as the optimal number) and then gets hit by your second wave of Assault Marines.

One of my favourite tactics was doing this with HF Land Speeders turboing straight towards the enemy. Wonderful as a distraction and actually threatening if left alone. I don't know if a BA army will have the disposable points.

This can even work against Mech provided you focus your heavy weapons fire (if you have any) on one transport.

Ass/Bolt Preds are alright, but it's hard to see them excelling at anything. I expect to see them shooting at light vehicles a lot, and there are better units for that.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie added a image and link if photo doesn't work out


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

How are you able to fire on two different units?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> How are you able to fire on two different units?


I was wondering the same thing. 

Perhaps it's an an attempt at illustrating how Predators can easily engage a range of targets? I dunno.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Oh yeah, well when firing though are you able to still fire that side sponson within it's arc knowing it will miss but may hit another unit? I don't play them so never really used it, but would assume the answer is a no.

Who knows maybe next additon of rules will allow tanks that can't carry passengers the ability to shoot thier different weapons at different targets but they may have to reduce thier BS by 1


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sadly, no.

While you *can* tag a unit *in addition* to the one you aimed at because of the lay of the template (you still have to maneuver the template to cover as many minis of the target squad as possible) if the squads overlap a bit, you still have to make contact with the target squad, otherwise it's out of range/los and not a legit shot.


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## Jono (Feb 2, 2010)

As long as you can clip even just 1 you can fire... so if your good with your eye you may infact be able to kill a lot from a seperate unit, just as long as you can hit 1 on the primary.

How about driving your Baal right into a horde, so your bascially surrounded then just litting rip??

Have to say the idea of the flame tank sounded awesome, but side spons flamers are so hard to use, as half the range is lost just getting to the front of the tank. LRR are fine because you have Machine spirit if one template is completely off target. How about running Flamestorm Baals with no side spons at all... just a big, cheap, marrine killer?? Priority target none the less, but not a huge point sink when they get into melta range. Sadly as good as Baals look, they are quite expensive, and if you take them your replacing your fast expendible Melta troops, with expensive tanks. I think I would probably take a Dakka pred over a Baal, just for its reliable long range killy power, and cheap cheap price tag. Although boosted up a hefty sum by it being fast in BA codex.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

So long as just one is also the *most* you can hit from that unit. Like I said, you have to line it up to hit the most possible models from the target unit, so it;s a really fine line to try and walk.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> * Razorbacks can upgrade from TLHB to TLHF for free.


Alright, this is pissing me off now.
Long Fangs can be excused, because they have the vulnerability of no excess models.
But Blood Angels Devastators are FAR superior to regular SM ones, and now THIS??

They really need to change some of the SM pricing in an FAQ, REALLY.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, I was wondering how they possibly justify Blood Angel Devestators being catagorically better than Vanilla ones. I mean, really, why?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Sethis said:


> Yeah, I was wondering how they possibly justify Blood Angel Devestators being catagorically better than Vanilla ones. I mean, really, why?


Because the Codex writers realized that they made a mistake in Codex: Space Marines, so they fix it in later publications, but naturally don't go back to fix their mistakes. So when, say, Dark Angels or something comes out they'll have the same cost as the Blood Angels, but Codex Marines are stuck with what they have.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Yeah, think of all the next SM special chapters to come out as a draft copy for the all round SM codex when it gets it's 6th edition codex, the regular SM stuff will get cheaper and then the next rendition of the SW will come out and be cheaper than that thus entering the mode called vicious circle


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sort of like why our hammer termies, chapter banners, storm shields and the like cost more. GW saw a problem in the old codex, 'fixed' it in the new one, while still leaving the hole wide open in the dex that caused the problem in the first place. 

All in all, it;s pretty much a wash.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Gal, interesting discussion. 

My thoughts so far from a strategic and tactical view point.

Ignore the aspect of the stand alone template weapons your discussing and consider how it will affect the rest of the force. I play guard mainly and while I have not had that much use of to dig out the marines of late, they suffer a few draw backs, both strategically and tactically that you could consider to be noteworthy.

The BA codex is written with several themes, taking out swathes of infantry as a CC force appears to be one of them from my understanding so far. (I haven't read it yet). Like Winter... I am dismayed at the cheaper Dev units, but overall the force should excell at destroying CC units if played agressively and get men to their objectives quickly. 

The flamer template does this nicely as a thematical approach to wiping out swathes of infantry by its sheer ability to remove a dice roll for hitting and getting at least 2-4 figures under it on average. What I do question, and I don't and haven't run the stats, are how useful point for point and versatile this is compared to what else can be accomplished in the codex for similar or fewer points. You have all talked about the LRR and so on, but looking strait at points is it as valuable as a simple 5 man tactical unit with a flamer and sgt with something? Comparisons are difficult to do, but is it worth a scoring unit and their flexibility would be my question.

The flamer is also to my mind a great weapon to employ on the launch and DS and DP etc as it allows the unit arriving to get a better kill ratio with whatever now cannot assualt as it arrives, but may shoot. However as a rush force across the board, I see a lot more valuable options out there.

In a 1500 point game, if your going for a balanced approach how much flamer can you have or want to have and still be able to take out enough armor? My thinking for SM may be outdated tactically, but the razorback and pred have always been great tank busting alternatives or the mainstay of a limited point marine force, flamers were always the province of the flamer squad guy... Although I can see the use of the flamer, I feel that BA armies will have to still keep the razorbacks and preds back, blowing up chunks of armor etc so that the marines can get to work on the other infantry.

Anyway, I guess time will tell!

Alexi.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Excellent post with many great points.

For the record, I wouldn't worry too much about our cheaper devs...chances are we'll never use them, what with our Fast predators and Vindicators.

As far as cheaper flamers go, you can get regular flamers in assault squads (up to 2 in a 10 man) but you can have meltas too, and it's far more tempting to use those squads as a mobile melta platform. That and, all things considewred, Baals and Razors are pretty cheap.

10 assault marines with a pair of flamers only is 200 points
A Baal predator with a pair of heavy flamers and a flamestorm cannon is 135
A razorback with a TL heavy flamer is 55


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

I personally see flame weapons on vehicles as more of a deterrent (IE: in the wall of steel chimera build) rather than a primary weapon. As CC is now resolved against rear armour of generally 10, I prefer to stay at range. 

I like the baals /w the assault cannon and 2 H. bolters. Being able to scout up to side armour first turn and lay down a fuselage of firepower is very appealing.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Aye, that pesky 'assaulting my rear armor' thing really keeps me from wanting to mess about with FireBaals

Though three FireBaals and a couple of razors, maybe with a vindi or two thrown in for spice would certainly keep people the fuck away from your advancing jump packs


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Galahad said:


> Aye, that pesky 'assaulting my rear armor' thing really keeps me from wanting to mess about with FireBaals
> 
> Though three FireBaals and a couple of razors, maybe with a vindi or two thrown in for spice would certainly keep people the fuck away from your advancing jump packs


I could certainly understand a "Jump packs tear armies apart right behind their front link while Baal preds mock the front line for being so terrible alone, set them on fire, blow them apart and then do doughnuts on their corpses" strategy becoming viable for BA, depending on how things turn out to perform on the tablegroup.

I certainly expect a whole bunch of people _try_ it. Wouldn't you?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I've been looking long and hard at Baal predators. And have decided to include 2 in the new army. They provide alot of 24" fire power, something that not alot of armies can actually do.

1 On each flank to make use of the Scout rule, or run both together and spearhead one flank. It works well. Especially as it can lift the turn 1&2 pressure off of Rhinos.

I prefer the TL assault cannon myself. The Flame storm is lovely against Plague marines (as was so obviously/deliberatly shown in this months WD). But water to wine I don;t really want me 140-150 point tank within charge range of Thunder hammers and power fists. It's a flamer designed to kill MEQs...and with how everyone plays nowadays, the majority of MEQ squads have a powerfist sergeant.

In city fight and Planetstrike, my opinion on them wavers slightly, as Dual HF and a Flame cannon would cleanse bunkers and whatnot. And the 'difficult bit' (I know...they are fast) is getting close enough to maximise the output of the templates. Planetstrike avoids this problem entirely.

I'm still an Assault cannon guy though. My main opponents do field Orks and Tyranids...but Its a Warrior army. And I prefer to fill them full of holes and avoid PF/MCs. Well....with Seth, I'll take the fight to them. Those auto hits just made my life easier...Hello 40mm base.

I do love the Baal in their entirity though, They are what the Razorback is almost. Minus transport function of course. The AV11 of the Razor really stops players who play the aggressive game (like me) from taking them that often...~40 points for a twin HB is nice, but Baals just rock.


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## Devinstater (Dec 9, 2008)

I also don't see the usefullness of Fire-Baals. Honestly I expected everyone to be all excited about them and then have that fade away but people just haven't but excited about them from square one.


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## Jono (Feb 2, 2010)

I think I would quite like to have 2 Baals with flamers charging down a flank for first turn flamming, for ,if nothing else, cover for my assault marines to get a turn 2 furious charging assault. You CANNOT let those flame storm cannons hit your lines, or you will watch guys fall left and right, they are going to have to kill them. Using your 18" scout move you can also place your Baal basically where ever you need it. You are surely sacraficing them, and yes its a 300 point sacrafice, but that should hopefully allow 30+ assault marrines to furious charge 2nd turn totally unscathed. 

Only problem I can see at say 1500 points, is taking 2-3 Baals leaves no room for speeders or AB for sacraficial melta units. If, like me you plan on running a jump pack army, this now turns your assault marines into your fast melta, which could be really bad. I can see it now, 'I'll go melta that russ with my AM squad, MISS - MISS... OHHHH CRAP.....'

The more I look at Baals, the more I want to take them, but deep down inside something keeps telling me to take speeders with HF/MM instead as my fast options. Flame storms may be awesome, but without the fast melta to actually blow up the transports, you will have nothing to fry.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Jono said:


> 'I'll go melta that russ with my AM squad, MISS - MISS... OHHHH CRAP.....'.



much more likely to happen with your single multi-melta on the land speeder!


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I personally would consider running two Baals with flamestorm cannon and heavy bolters along with 2 preds with auto cannon & las cannon sponsons and a VIndicator. Depending on the opposing army and mission I would consider putting both in reserve to outflank or to move along providing cover for jump pack troops and/or heavy bolter fire at enemy units.

With the scout move enabling them to have a free move before the game starts, you could also 'pull an Eldrad' by setting them up in a position you do not want them to be in and then scout move 18 inches to where they are really needed. 

They would also be useful to have the pintle mounted storm bolter added to them if you had the points or even dare I say it a hunter killer missile.


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## beeny13 (Mar 30, 2008)

i'm surprised that no one has mentioned outflanking yet. some armies would limit set up
the way i see my army with jump packs, razorbacks, missile devs, and maybe some dreads. i feel that a pair of asscan baals will do a lot more-great at popping transports, and speeders, and even late game can try to trim down scoring units.

i see an all flamer baal needing a lascannon ac pred to work as a team. one opens the transport while the other cuts the tac squad down to 3. maybe with sanguinary guard troops from dante. the list could rock so much av13 and 2+ save that you just couldn't deal with it all.


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