# Dark Elves vs Lizardmen - what works and what doesn't?



## mahavira

I am scheduled to battle the scaled hordes of Lustria next weekend (2250 points), and find myself somewhat unsure. The only time I fought Lizards before, I had my head handed to me for a variety of reasons, but possibly not having the right tools for the job may have contributed. My initial impressions:

1) The Slann is likely to shut my magic phase down rather badly: last time he had some ability that negated any 6's I rolled in casting if I was within a particular range of him, and I doubt that's the worst he can do. Is it even worth taking a wizard lord, or would a weaker mage with a dispel or feedback item be better?

2) Lores: while the Lore of Darkness is generally good, I'm not really sure it outperforms shadow or metal vs lizards. That said, the spells are easier to cast, and with my range on a die being 0-5 instead of 1-6, that might matter.

3) Due to the high toughness and good armor of Saurus infantry, and the risk of monsters like stegadons and carnosaurs, I am presuming that repeat bolt throwers are more necessary than usual.

4) I am toying with the idea of taking a unit of 9 cold one knights (full command, banner of hag graef) and having a mounted bsb wiht the ranger banner (and a lance). The BoHG means all models, evne the cold ones, get rerolls to hit, and 2 ranks of lances is one of the few things I can think of that will blunt blocks of saurus (the one unit that did me proud in the past battle with lizards was a unit of 5 knights with a dreadlord leading them). The ranger banner is to deal with a perenneal problem: everyone I play wiht loses more cavalary to dangerous terrain tests than to the enemy. 

5) I'm having trouble seeing what core units are good for this situation. Anyone can kill skinks in close combat, but nothing in the core lineup stands a chance against saurus, even with numeric advantage and some magical support. I also forsee a lot of S3 bolts bouncing off uncaring lizardmen. Corsairs at least have a good save against those cursed poison blowguns...

Anyone have suggestions as to units that are good in this situation?


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## coke123

Hahaha... wanna kill Lizards? You up for power scroll abuse?

Level 4 mage with Lore of Death on a Dark Pegasus (or whatever your flying mount is called) with Lore of Death, and that reverse ward save item. Make sure you get purple sun, then fly down the flank and let rip. Wipes out 5/6ths of his army in one swoop, if he hasn't set up to counteract it.

Although, if you don't feel like being a dick, and want a game that lasts beyond your first magic phase, it depends. If the slann has lore of light, great weapons are a good way to go. I'm not 100% on DE, but they surely have great weapons. If he runs lore of life, then you might as well go for several attacks- i.e. spears. Killing Blow is a good way of dealing with lizards (which I believe Executioners have?). You need strong magic defense. You need to be able to break bunkers.

Things Lizardmen fear:

1) Anything that attacks low initiative
2) Magic Blockers (without the Slann, Lizardmen are nowhere near as good)
3) S6+ (You then just need to block Flesh to Stone/Throne of Vines)
4) Armour ignoring effects (Killing Blow)

Although, all in all, without the rofl-fly-deathwizard, Lizardmen are pretty hard matchup for DE. I suggest Hydras. They're a bitch. As for core... Don't know DE intimately, can anything take halberds in core? If not, then spam spears, and bring them down through weight of attacks.

I don't think the Cold One block is crazy good against Lizards. You're S5 on the charge. I can easily become T6, and potentially T8. I lose a couple, you maybe lose a couple, if I lose, I'm steadfast, if you lose, you're not. Not to mention that Salamanders love T3 heavy cavalry in large numbers.

As for lore of metal/shadow- I'd say they're both equally good. Sure, shadow punishes low I, but losses can be replenished, and then there's the extra protection afforded by glittering robe in metal. Not to mention, saurus are WS3- you get enough debuffs off, and they're hitting you on 5s. and 2+ to hit rerolled is brutal.


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## blackspine

that's a tough army to play against.

You can try many ways to deal with the Lizard men.

RXB men. S4 AP shots? yes. Get some good units to really pump these out.

Witch elves. Poisoned attacks, maybe the 'razor banner' in them, should shred through most Lizard men units. Though don't have much survival rate. (less if you can't deal w/ skinks)

Skinks: shades to take them out? Small units of RXBmen to shoot them to crap works. Hydras can deal with them easily too. Corsairs are handy, as they have a 4+ (?) vs shooting. Force them to move a lot and you'll make them have to get 7's to hit....nullifying their Poisoned shot.
Dark magic has some nasty ways to kill them. Chillwind inhibits shots from them....and will wipe out most of them.

Salamanders: shooting or even a lone 'unkillable' Dread lord. 

You're going to need flaming banner. LM almost always take 'regen' in lore of life...and keeping it off with the flaming banner helps loads. 
Cauldron of blood; 5+ ward on your CoKs. Don't use the magic banner on BSB, more killing with the magic items. 

Chariots w/ high T/ AS (for elves) can run down skinks very well.

I'm sure there's WAY more. But these are some thoughts.


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## Orochi

Ring of Hotek. Keep in neat his slann. That'll keep a tally on it that he'll have to be VERY careful around.

Anti-death lord in a unit of CoKs carrying the ring would be a good bet.

2 Hydras to act as a battering ram.

Mass spearmen. Yes really.


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## blackspine

if he does get off 'earthblood' or the regen spell, counter your shooting.
Use hydras or other flaming attacks first. Then barrage them with RXBs and laugh.

Good luck!


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## mahavira

Thanks for the suggestions:



blackspine said:


> that's a tough army to play against.
> 
> You can try many ways to deal with the Lizard men.
> 
> RXB men. S4 AP shots? yes. Get some good units to really pump these out.
> 
> Witch elves. Poisoned attacks, maybe the 'razor banner' in them, should shred through most Lizard men units. Though don't have much survival rate. (less if you can't deal w/ skinks)
> 
> Skinks: shades to take them out? Small units of RXBmen to shoot them to crap works. Hydras can deal with them easily too. Corsairs are handy, as they have a 4+ (?) vs shooting. Force them to move a lot and you'll make them have to get 7's to hit....nullifying their Poisoned shot.
> Dark magic has some nasty ways to kill them. Chillwind inhibits shots from them....and will wipe out most of them.
> 
> Salamanders: shooting or even a lone 'unkillable' Dread lord.
> 
> You're going to need flaming banner. LM almost always take 'regen' in lore of life...and keeping it off with the flaming banner helps loads.
> Cauldron of blood; 5+ ward on your CoKs. Don't use the magic banner on BSB, more killing with the magic items.
> 
> Chariots w/ high T/ AS (for elves) can run down skinks very well.
> 
> I'm sure there's WAY more. But these are some thoughts.


Just to clarify, Cold One Knights have a base S of 4, so that's S6 on the charge, and repeat crossbows are only S3 (but armor piercing).



Orochi said:


> Ring of Hotek. Keep in neat his slann. That'll keep a tally on it that he'll have to be VERY careful around.
> 
> Anti-death lord in a unit of CoKs carrying the ring would be a good bet.
> 
> 2 Hydras to act as a battering ram.
> 
> Mass spearmen. Yes really.


Anti-Death Lord? THis is terminology I am not familliar with. Also, please explain on the mass spearmen - I may be missing something, but the math doesn't work without fairly major magical backup.

One other thought: against lizardmen, the banner of hag graef may be unnecessary, and it might be better to have the unit standard be the Ranger Banner and the BSB carry a hydra standard. 18 S6 attacks on a charge? (3+1 bsb, 2+1 champ, 3x 1+1, 5x1). Even temple guard are going to feel that.

I ordinarily give the fire banner to witch elves (I often play vs skaven, and flaming poison is your best bet against Hell Pit Abominations). Lore of metal gives flaming attacks that work well against units like temple guard, as well as 2 good buffs. Lore of flame would be killer against skinks, and if I get lucky and get Flaming Sword of Rhun, flaming and a bonus to wound helps get rid of regenerating temple guard.


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## Orochi

Anti-death Lord is a Lord who won't die.

Whip of Agony, Armour of eternal servitude/Pentant of Khaeleth + Heavy armour, shield, Sea dragon cloak and a Cold one.

That gives you a Lord who will rock challenges and add a good punch to a unit of CoKs after the turn they charge.


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## Masked Jackal

Lizardmen are a tough match-up. All the poisoned shooting can do a number on our infantry blocks, and there's lot of high toughness models that S3 generally bounces off of.

From our core, the biggest thing I can see as being viable is Black Ark Corsairs and Repeater Crossbowmen. The Corsairs can make short work of a block if given the proper buff/debuffing on the enemy unit. The Repeater Crossbowmen are mostly to get rid of Skinks.

From then on it's a matter of how many high strength attacks you can get. Black Guard, Witch Elves (For their poison) and Cold One Knights are all good choices for specials. Just watch out for the attacks of the enemy. Don't charge the Cold One Knights into Temple-Guard where they'll get butchered, save Witch Elves or Hydra flames for that. Remember that they're no tougher than other Lizardmen, they're just killier. Whittle them down and they'll be a lot easier to deal with.

Also, Hydras are still quite good despite all the poisoned shooting. On average, the enemy will have to get 4 wounds to get one through, and they're fast enough to charge in and get stuff killed. They're a great source of high-strength attacks.

On the magic front, try to use the Sacrificial Dagger to keep your spells from fizzing out due to Becalming Cogitation. They'll have a strong dispelling factor, but if you pump out enough sacrifices you should do decently.


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## coke123

Masked Jackal said:


> Remember that they're no tougher than other Lizardmen, they're just killier. Whittle them down and they'll be a lot easier to deal with.


Temple Guard have a 3+ save against shooting and regen from life slann... they are tougher.


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## Masked Jackal

coke123 said:


> Temple Guard have a 3+ save against shooting and regen from life slann... they are tougher.


Yeah, but shooting at them isn't usually the answer unless you have higher strength than 3. The regen's if he gets the spell off. In combat they're as easy to kill as a Saurus. If you can manage a side-charge with the Cold One Knights, you'll cut a fair few to pieces.


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