# Dark Elves, yay or nay?



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Okay, as I posted recently in another thread, I'm looking at getting into WHF. Currently, my playstyle with 40K is rather melee-up-in-your-face, which from my readings, makes Dark Elves seem like they'd fit. The description on the Armies of WHF in this forum made them even more appealing. That in addition to the fact that the models look absolutely badass...

1. Now, I know that the Codex is only 3 years old, but it was still released in 7ED rather than 8ED. Not being familiar with 7ED rules (hell, being only partially familiar with 8th after sitting down and reading the entire rulebook yesterday haha), was the release of 8th debilitating for the DE codex or was it relatively unaffected?

2. What about you all that have experience playing with/against Dark Elves? Is it a fun army or will I be channelled into a certain build (I've already accepted that I have to get 2 War Hydras and a lot of Executioners).

3. In terms of modeling and conversion, are the WHF models for DEs easily modified? I had picked up a box of Chaos Warriors a few months back to convert to CSM, and wasn't really pleased with the pose-ability of the kits. Do the plastic DE kits suffer from this as well?

4. If you think Dark Elves blow nuts, then what would you recommend I play?

Thanks in advance for any input!


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

I have both WoC and Dark Elves.

the Dark elves are amazing in 8th, only really second to... well WoC.

the dark elves main troop unit comes in 6 pieces. each arm, the main body with half of the upper body as a second piece, and the head. spearmen (the shield), reaper bolt throwers (ammo pack for top of reaper bolt thrower) some things in the dex got upgraded, a few things got mildly nerfed, but the things that got nerfed were nerfed for everyone (calv)

they are not super poseable, but, NO WHFB model is really, as they all are designed, more or less, to be rank and file, so they need some coherency so they are not shoving their spear in the next guys back


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Boc said:


> Okay, as I posted recently in another thread, I'm looking at getting into WHF. Currently, my playstyle with 40K is rather melee-up-in-your-face, which from my readings, makes Dark Elves seem like they'd fit. The description on the Armies of WHF in this forum made them even more appealing. That in addition to the fact that the models look absolutely badass...


Dark Elves can certainly make a very mean melee army, though they have good ranged options. Lots of options for high-strength attacks, or lots of S3 attacks. All very reliable.



> 1. Now, I know that the Codex is only 3 years old, but it was still released in 7ED rather than 8ED. Not being familiar with 7ED rules (hell, being only partially familiar with 8th after sitting down and reading the entire rulebook yesterday haha), was the release of 8th debilitating for the DE codex or was it relatively unaffected?


It knocked Dark Elves down just a tiny bit, but they are still going very strong. Strong magic, reliable troops, etc. They're just fragile and expensive, but a good general can work around that.



> 2. What about you all that have experience playing with/against Dark Elves? Is it a fun army or will I be channelled into a certain build (I've already accepted that I have to get 2 War Hydras and a lot of Executioners).


It is a very fun, and very versatile army. There are only a couple truly bad choices though some are subpar. War Hydras are very good, Executioners are kinda bad, but can do a lot of damage in a horde.



> 3. In terms of modeling and conversion, are the WHF models for DEs easily modified? I had picked up a box of Chaos Warriors a few months back to convert to CSM, and wasn't really pleased with the pose-ability of the kits. Do the plastic DE kits suffer from this as well?


No, they're usually quite good about this. It's very fun to mix-and-match with the Dark Eldar models. =)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

jackal hit it on the head in some ways.

though I have noticed some things for the DE, despite the 'down a notch' jackal talks about, actually got stronger


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Stronger overall, yes. I'm just referring to a couple power-combos that could completely dominate games, such as Shadestar, certain double-Hydra lists, etc.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Cheers, fellas, I'd been planning on running by the shop during my lunch break tomorrow and order a little bit, probably a Dreadlord, some warriors and a hydra to start.

I get easily excited...


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

BoC, wait on the hydra... really. its not Finecast yet, and despite the finecast issues. you will want it over the metal...


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## Saulot (May 25, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> BoC, wait on the hydra... really. its not Finecast yet, and despite the finecast issues. you will want it over the metal...


Agreed. I've heard enough horror stories about its neck(s) alone. :laugh:


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Saulot said:


> Agreed. I've heard enough horror stories about its neck(s) alone. :laugh:


stories? ive LIVED it


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

The necks are a motherfucking nightmare. If the new War Hydra is $120 it will be worth it because then you won't have to deal with the necks.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> stories? ive LIVED it


We should probably be careful by now. We wouldn't want anyone to have any nasty flashbacks.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> We should probably be careful by now. We wouldn't want anyone to have any nasty flashbacks.


too late! lmao


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I like the Dark Elves although they are as mentioned very fragile, we have a gamer at the club who constructed a 'close range fire support' army which basically consisted of ALL reaper armed crossbows it dealt out lierally a bucket full of dice per shooting phase.

Alternatively the other lists I have seen have taken advantage of the hordes rule to full effect 
2 x 40 spearmen (all can attack unless charged!)
30 Corsairs
20 Executioners 
2 War Hydra's

one word for this....nasty


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

most armies that CAN take advantage of a 10 long unit should. my WoC do not have that luxury, but are just badass in their own right as it is


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Ratvan said:


> I like the Dark Elves although they are as mentioned very fragile, we have a gamer at the club who constructed a 'close range fire support' army which basically consisted of ALL reaper armed crossbows it dealt out lierally a bucket full of dice per shooting phase.
> 
> Alternatively the other lists I have seen have taken advantage of the hordes rule to full effect
> 2 x 40 spearmen (all can attack unless charged!)
> ...


Not particularly nasty. Replace one of the 40-man spearmen units with something like 30 Witch Elves, and take out one of the Executioners for Black-Guard.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

With the witch elves, I've read mixed reviews of the whole Khainite aspect they have. Is it really that big of a deal, then, or just a risk that they're worth due to their ridiculous number of attacks?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Boc said:


> With the witch elves, I've read mixed reviews of the whole Khainite aspect they have. Is it really that big of a deal, then, or just a risk that they're worth due to their ridiculous number of attacks?


A bunch of Khainite stuff is less than stellar, but the Witch Elves are excellent. Right up there with Blackguard. Just watch the hole they put in a unit and you'll be impressed as well. =) Just be sure to put the 5+ ward save from the Cauldron on them to keep them alive while they get there.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I really love playing dark elves. Dark Elves are NOT a melee army in 8th edition, except for the hydras. Hydras are what make the army top tier right now with their relatively low cost, regen, terror, flaming breath weapon, special rules for protecting handlers and great number of attacks plus thunderstomp. But hydras can be very vulnerable to dwarf shooting with flaming runes and cannons from empire and skaven armies and certain magic. Elf infantry and cav models are all toughness 3 and all but the cold one knights (2+ armour save with shields) and characters with magic items (armour of darkness) or mounted (cold one with cloak, heavy armour and shield) will not have better than a 5+ armour save in combat. Also, all the core units hits with strength 3, unless augmented, and will struggle against tougher or higher armour save units as a result. Thus, dark elf infantry are very vulnerable in combat in 8th edition because 8th edition will allow enemy units to strike back and remain steadfast. This makes DE a finesse army that wins a lot (top tier) because it is flexible and can deal with many different armies and has access to great lords and heroes because of the magic items and options they have in the army book. A DE army has excellent magic and casters with magic items (the power of darkness spell is huge in 8th edition and the sacrificial dagger on a lvl 4 castor in a spearman unit is excellent). A DE army has a greater number of range of protective magic items, including the pendant of khaleth. DE armies have one of the best shooting units in repeater crossbow warriors (RXBs). It is the combination of excellent magic with strong core shooting and the use of hydras and very difficult to kill dreadlords and masters that make this army tough. The dreadlord and master can get stuck in fights and hold up something and the hydras can screen and take on things the rest of the army cannot handle while the magic augments, hexes and direct damage reduce the effectiveness of the enemy units and shooting from core RXB units depletes enemy units prior to combat. 

By way of background: In 7th edition, dark elf infantry models were able to benefit from being able to charge (movement 5 as compared with 4 for most other infantry) and strike first in the first round of combat and strike enemy models first in the following rounds of combat due to their high initiative. Because models killed in base contact could not strike back, the ability of dark elf models to strike first and amass more hits and wounds (due to greater initiative and weapon skill and hatred in the first round of combat) meant that a good offensive ability provided substantial defense by limiting the number of attacks back a dark elf unit could face in 7th edition. In fact, sometimes a dark elf unit would charge and kill almost all the first rank of a unit it was facing so as to avoid getting hit back at all and win combat accordingly. Alternatively, if a stubborn dark elf unit (witch elves and execs in range of a cauldron or black guard) survived the first round of combat and did not break, then that unit would often get to strike first in the subsequent rounds of combat in 7th edition and could chew up a lot of units before they got to strike back. 

In 8th edition, by contrast, units in combat are allowed to strike back by having models in back ranks step up to replace the models killed and are allowing supporting attacks from additional ranks. Thus, larger or more resilient enemy units in 8th edition will get to hit back at dark elf infantry units far more often and far more effectively than in 7th edition. Dark elf infantry units tend to be more easily killed if successfully hit due to their combination of relatively high cost per model (limits the size of the unit relative to many enemy core units), low toughness (toughness 3) and relatively low armour saves. Thus, 8th edition rules hurt the effectiveness of dark elf core and special infantry choices, particularly spearmen, corsairs, witch elves, black guard and executioners.

However, 8th edition benefitted the army by increasing the effectiveness of its magic and by allowing the army to play two lords (one dreadlord and one lvl 4 castor) above 2250 points with more magic items for lords and heroes and by increasing the effectiveness of hydras in certain ways (thunderstomp and breath weapon in combat) when used in tandem with other units. Right now, certain dark elf army builds at 2400 and 2500 points in a tournament that does not allow or limits special characters are top tier. A dreadlord that is very resilient/extremely difficult to kill, stubborn, and can kill enough is very effective, particularly when combined with a supreme sorceress with a sac dagger and ward save. 
The issue with Khainite units is the fact that they cannot be joined by non-Khainite characters and cannot get the Banner of hag grief (exceeds the points limit for magic banners) for ASF (gives re-rolls to hit after round one). With the step up rule allowing units to hit back, the witch elves are more vulnerable in 8th edition to getting killed because they only have toughness 3 with no save. Executioners can be very effective but will strike last with great weapons unless on puts a death hag BSB with the Banner of Hag Grief in the unit (which is a waste because she can be killed too easily when not with the cauldron) and that means execs must be in a very large unit or used in a smaller flanking unit. 

What makes the khainite units effective, however, is when they are kept within range of the cauldron. The cauldron makes them stubborn and can give them a 5+ ward save or +1 attack. I find witch elves to be more cost effective than execs and to match up really well in a horde unit (10 wide by 3 or more deep) with the fact that they get two hand weapons plus frenzy plus poision. The ability to re-roll to hit on round one with poison makes poison especially effective against very tough models with lower armour and ward saves. Also, if facing infantry models or cav with high armour saves, the witches can also get the killing blow blessing and killing blow with the larger number of attacks can allow witches to cut through heavy infantry and cav units. Put the banner of murder on them for AP (reduces enemy armour save by -1) and they will kill a lot but will also die faster than I would like. With a death hag cauldron as the army BSB it may make sense to take even a small unit of ten witches to act as a stubborn speed bump to protect the cauldron. 

DE armies do not have very good special characters, so they are best in an environment where special characters are generally not played or are limited.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Olderplayer makes some good points, but I'm not getting the whole 'not a melee' thing. Our magic is our most powerful attribute, but we have plenty of sources of good melee. If it has to be supported by magic sometimes, that's just the deal we get.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

> The necks are a motherfucking nightmare. If the new War Hydra is $120 it will be worth it because then you won't have to deal with the necks.


Sincerely agreed. I started the hobby with Dark Elves and so the Hydra is a familiar little beast


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

You all have a very convincing argument!

Bought a box of warriors, the battalion box, and got a free sorceress on mount/dismounted combo pack.

And so it begins... more moneyz gone.


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

wait you want to play a up in your face cc army you should play WOC they are the best cc army even the cannons can smash through a unit in CC


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

search116 said:


> wait you want to play a up in your face cc army you should play WOC they are the best cc army even the cannons can smash through a unit in CC


He's already bought models and we've gone over a good deal of other things with him. He's pretty set by now I think.


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