# What are your thoughts on the new FAQs for all Marines?



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Basically I wanted to start a thread where we could discuss what the FAQs have done for all the Marine Dexs, DA and BT especially.

My first thought was now that DA have 3++ Storm Shields, 2 shot Cyclone Missile Launchers and FNP Apothecary, would the Deathwing no be a viable army?

Something like:

Belial w/ TH&SS

5x Deathwing Terminators w/ 5 TH&SSs, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Apothecary and Company Standard

5 groups of 5x Deathwing Terminators w/ 5 TH&SSs and Cyclone Missile Launcher

2 Typhoons w/ Multi-Melta

Total: 1745

That's 16 S8 shots a turn, which is some decent firepower. Everything in the army is 2+/3++, save for the two Speeders, which should have the range to stay out of trouble (or boost straight into it to deliver Melta to enemy Raiders. Oh, and those 31 2+/3++ models are all scoring, save Belial if he's out on his own.

Sure, foot is slow, but with 6 units marching across the board, you can cover a fair area, plus they have missiles to slow you down.

So share your thoughts, not just on Deathwing, but anything you think has chaged due to the FAQ update


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

The Swedish tournament scene has had this kind of "universal rule setting" a good while to keep things simple and it works out great imo.
Everything is a hell of a lot smoother when all gunz with the same name have the same rules. There wont be any weird shenanigans just because the codex is old, at least not with similar things having different rules 

I like it even more from another pov:
It seems like GW finally have gotten their thumb out of their ass and started to make FAQs for real. This shows that they in some way have understood that the players demand that they clarify and support the things they have given out in order to keep the customers interested. This will hopefully lead to less waiting for new FAQs and better rule synchronization which will benefit the games, both things which I like


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Most notable thing I can see is the Black Templar PotMS on Vindicators. However, that's 155pts, and they can take a second Storm Bolter (165 with the PotMS). Especially as they can get Land Raider Crusaders as Crusader Squad Transport.

Sword Brethren are still too expensive (19pts for 1 attack, Pair LC's cost 54pts with Terminator Honours), although TH/SS with a Crusader and Furious Charge for 602pts, they're among the most premier of assaulters. 5 Man Twin Cyclone Tank Hunter Terminators are awesome. 

As for characters, a Master of Sanctity with Thammer, Storm Shield, Terminator Armour for 165 is a premier unit as well. Bear in mind that being a Master of Sanctity it still has it's Power Weapon - so you've got 4 Attacks, 5 on the charge, with a Power Weapon/Thammer, and a 2+/3++, with a reroll to hit. Shunt that in a Terminator Assault Squad (in an LRC) and it's boss.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Deathwing as you have stated Skoll will be a viable army. However, it will suffer a weakness as any small elite force does. How to counter mass firepower even at low rate. Your right, when you say 16, strength 8 shots a turn. Which against any heavy MC or mechanized force will show a telling blow quite quickly.

But what would 16 shots even at strength 8 mean against hordes? Not a great deal, guardsmen and gaunts die to bolter shells just as easily.

The great 3++ save is the big one. As it allows people to disregard some terrain and cover saves for doing approaches. This will be the big influence I think in the short term as people start to "march forward" and eschew cover with the deathwing lists that begin to appear.

Perhaps what we are going to see is a swing back toward hybrid lists without a reliance on mech if it's dealt with far too quickly by lists such as you have written above, or a movement toward countering it with fast delivered CC tie up. Dark Eldar spring to mind here, as do Eldar, harlies, and BA.

I see this as probably a movement to returning from full mech toward more deep striking and flanking units, that can engage enemies like the DW and others quickly and remove a lot of their fire potential while mech support advances.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> My first thought was now that DA have 3++ Storm Shields, 2 shot Cyclone Missile Launchers and FNP Apothecary, would the Deathwing no be a viable army?


Yeah, Dark Angels just rocketed straight upward from one of the weakest lists in the game to one of the better ones.



> Belial w/ TH&SS
> 
> 5x Deathwing Terminators w/ 5 TH&SSs, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Apothecary and Company Standard
> 
> ...


There was a tournament today at my shop where a Deathwing player played something very similar to this, but with one less Land Speeder and Terminator Squad for a Dreadnought and Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator armor.

He was able to basically walk up the battlefield immune to consequences. Granted, the way the pairings worked he didn't go up against any really vicious shooting armies (managed to miss both Guard armies) but even still, Deathwing are now a very solid choice.

Black Templars can do some interesting stuff too, but if I'm honest I haven't spent tons of time working with them yet to see what they can do post-FAQ. The other ones for the Space Marines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are all more or less minor things, except now Blood Angels Descent of Angels armies aren't quite as effective since they're not able to combat squad large ten man units into smaller ones before Deep Striking in, which really hurts their potential. All in all though, a good series of FAQs.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Alexious said:


> Deathwing as you have stated Skoll will be a viable army. However, it will suffer a weakness as any small elite force does. How to counter mass firepower even at low rate. Your right, when you say 16, strength 8 shots a turn. Which against any heavy MC or mechanized force will show a telling blow quite quickly.
> 
> But what would 16 shots even at strength 8 mean against hordes? Not a great deal, guardsmen and gaunts die to bolter shells just as easily.


Just like to point out that the 4-6 Bolter Shots (depending on number of TH/SS) and 16 Frag Missiles will make a dent, while capable of breaking transpots still.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Yeah the Deathwing Army should fair reasonably against hordes as those 16 Missiles can be frags instead, 16 S4 templates will lay down a lot of hurt onto a horde army.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Although I can see the math behind that statement... your assuming we are on Hoth on a glacier? I only need to tie up a limited number of troops and its over. i dont even have to kill them, just hold them up. Terminators are still just that in CC and will still fall to lasguns no matter how good the save.

I see the same problem happening with a GK force... your limited to what you can do, to get there and to get there effectively and stay there.

30 marines is still 30 models, 30 models that are marching toward CC. I do see your point, but dont be so one dimensional to dismiss another point of view, without thinking it through to an effective counter strategy.

I will happily put my entire Praetorian and Mordian Foot regiment up against that death wing any day... First Rank Fire!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I wouldn't say marching, I still feel the real power comes from taking some Raven Wing with Teleport homers. Meaning your Deathwing Assualt happens in close and without scattering. Giving you a turn at most to run away from them before they beat your guys faces off with Thunderhammers. 

Yes they are weak to massed small arms fire, but armies like foot guard are so brutally uncompetitive against the other common armies that it is less of a concern.

I think it's good, I've played Blood Angels and Dark Angels since the days of the Angels of Death Codex for the people who remember that. I've been waiting for a new Dark Angels codex but now I don't really need to I can bust them out and build a decent if not good army right now.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> I like it even more from another pov:
> It seems like GW finally have gotten their thumb out of their ass and started to make FAQs for real. This shows that they in some way have understood that the players demand that they clarify and support the things they have given out in order to keep the customers interested. This will hopefully lead to less waiting for new FAQs and better rule synchronization which will benefit the games, both things which I like


As long as they keep this up, I will be over the moon.



Vaz said:


> 5 Man Twin Cyclone Tank Hunter Terminators are awesome.


These guys should be great. For 275 points you can get an all unique unit with the ability to pump out 4 S8 Tank Hunter shots, or 4 S4 blasts+10 SB shots, and two Chainfists for combat. Chainfists are worth it for wound alloaction alone IMO.



Vaz said:


> Just like to point out that the 4-6 Bolter Shots (depending on number of TH/SS) and 16 Frag Missiles will make a dent, while capable of breaking transpots still.


Do they need Storm Bolters over 3++ if they have that many Blasts? Adding one SB to each squad isn't that much and any more and the unit can become more vunerable.



Alexious said:


> Although I can see the math behind that statement... your assuming we are on Hoth on a glacier? I only need to tie up a limited number of troops and its over. i dont even have to kill them, just hold them up. Terminators are still just that in CC and will still fall to lasguns no matter how good the save.
> 
> I see the same problem happening with a GK force... your limited to what you can do, to get there and to get there effectively and stay there.
> 
> ...


Against Guard, they can just stay out of 24" and bomb you with Frags. Sure Vs Hordes is going to be an uphill battle, butnot imposible.

My thoughts is, between this, Loganwing and potentially the new Grey Knights, who have hard counters in the form of hordes, be enough to shift lists back to hybrid/balanced lists?



Aramoro said:


> I wouldn't say marching, I still feel the real power comes from taking some Raven Wing with Teleport homers. Meaning your Deathwing Assualt happens in close and without scattering. Giving you a turn at most to run away from them before they beat your guys faces off with Thunderhammers.


Do they even need to Teleport in? 5 Squads (assuming one DS in to make the most of Deathwing Assuat without making your amry arrive piecementaly) should be able to cover a large portion of the board. So although they are slowly walking towards you, there's no where to run without giving ground or moving into range of other squads.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm not sure you want to cover a large portion of the board with them, that just sees you isolated and more vulnerable to hordes. I had always envisaged them being used in a kind of refused flank style. With the obvious counter to Deathwing assault being a refused flank/castling. Suppose it depends if you're going first or second. I guess if your opponent is deploying first they have to do so in such a way as to minimise the impact of any potential Deathwing Assault at which point you don't do it. If you go first it's a bit of a toss up. Ravenwing Bikes really help though, give you the option to get your Deathwing in close.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Alexious said:


> Terminators are still just that in CC and will still fall to lasguns no matter how good the save.


I agree that massed firepower will eventually kill a squad of terminators, but the Deathwing command squad just got 50% more survivable than any other terminator squad in the game. You just shored up their weakest spot. I play against a Deathwing player and I'm a little concerned how I am going to deal with that. 

Rix


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Blow up the transport, secure your home objective, and block off all the others while focusing firepower. I have a T5 3+/3++/FNP unit with Bikes, Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers, Furious Charge, Hit and Run - it's probably the hardest useable unit the standard marines have to offer - and ther's always one thing that defeats it - torrenting and sacrifice units.

They are ONLY Terminators - which means they're only as good as a Sergeant in Close Combat, and against 1wound models, THammers are of no extra use, while LClaws are easier to put away. Your PFists combine the worst of one with the worst of the other, so they're not too bad to take on.

AP2 is a friend - if you can get LasPlas weaponry (such as RBacks), or Vindicators etc then you're balling. Same with Rending - if it rends, it bypasses FNP, and forces Inv Saves which are worse. In fact, you can't really go far wrong with Land Raider Crusader + Standard Land Raider. They can barely hurt it lacking Melta's, contain your own assault troops, and the two have enough weaponry to kill perhaps a unit a turn.

Tactical Squads with Missile Launchers can put out a decent amount of firepower - 14-16 Bolter Shots, 2-4 Plasma, and a blast template can force enough wounds to take a couple of casualties.

And you can always meet them in CC with your own Terminators, where the Apothecary is a liability thanks to his lack of a 3++, meaning on the average, 5 TH/SS will win out 4 TH/SS DW with an Apothecary.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Anything that ignores the 2+ also ignores the FnP, so it's actually only useful against torrents. They're better, to be sure, but far from unkillable.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I kill termies with torrents so this very bad for me.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dark Angel Apothecaries can have Storm Shields as well and Thunderhammers of healing.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> Dark Angel Apothecaries can have Storm Shields as well and Thunderhammers of healing.


Yeah, those units are _rock_ solid. It's... almost a bit silly how tough they are. But it's not unbeatable.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Everything has a counter. That is the beauty of 40K. Now we sweat on how we are going to deal with these multitude of terminators yet in a few months they will be a force where you can just ramble off a huge number of ways to defeat them.


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## Mr.Juggernaught (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah deathwing is pretty sweet to me now as a while a go I was nuts about collecting deathwing and I had 10 thunder hammerers 15 power fist wielders a Liberian in terminator Armour chaplain in terminator armour Belial and a few extra things that I picked up as well. Pity I was a terrible painter back then as I would love to have those models except with no paint on them so I could do it properly. Raven wing bikers kick ass with deathwing in planet strike as you have the two squads in the land raiders and the other one or two squads deathwing assault with the raven wing scouting and turbo busting and then the death wing reserves coming in not scattering and assaulting in the one freaking turn!!! Do you see what I mean by they kick ass?


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

It may be the chaos traitor in me, but my thoughts on the FAQ veer close to "Oh sweet, the main brand of SM cheese is now retroactive to the older codices, allowing entire armies of S8 3++ saves, now with cyclones."

But if they keep doing more frequent FAQS for the other armies too, I'll swallow my whiny grumbling.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm certainly a fan of what this does for BT (there's no real need to reaffirm what has been said about DA). I've actually been looking at lists that run four squads of Twin Cyclone Tank hunters and two-three very large squads of foot slogging Initiates/Neophytes. With Accept any Challenge, a Marshall, and other BT rules it crosses the field surprisingly quickly and the can be surprisingly durable by using the Terminators as cover for the Initiates/Neophytes.

Also looking at a current style mech list with three of Auto/Las Preds or EA/PotMS Vindicators and 3-6 TML Landspeeders + three rhinos of troops and one with a power armor command squad with FNP, Furious Charge and as many upgrades as it can get without buying Terminator honours on anything other than the sergeant. Got to say that pairs of TML/HB Landspeeders for the same cost as 6 Long Fangs with 5MLs (140 total) is pretty awesome.


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## FaithfulDemise (Jul 10, 2010)

As others have mentioned, Horde Armies can walk all over small elite armies or at least tie them up for a bit. Not impossible to win but it will be hard fought. Some fast mobile units can be a pain also because them can run circles around you. Sounds like a lot has been covered by everyone else.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, Dark Angels just rocketed straight upward from one of the weakest lists in the game to one of the better ones.


Hmm...weird I didn't know I was running the weakest army in the game. Guess if I knew that I might have lost more often. Dark Angels could always win games, just took more effort.

Though a pure Deathwing army wasn't easy. I still don't see it as easy with the changes either. They're more effective but until terminators can buy las cannons, power swords, and upgrade entire squads to carry assault cannons, or even carry jump packs, I don't see terminators having enough options for me. Granted I always take em and I take lots of em but rarely without some support options. 

Overall I don't see the changes altering my armies "much". I've often used apothecaries, missiles, storm shields and have won per codex. Just that before I never could put much weight on any of those aspects. I certainly wouldn't build an army based off any particular change but together they seem good. I don't think I'll often run pure Deathwing but it is nice that they aren't officially handicapped now. I always complained about how simple adding all that to a FAQ would be and how strange the gearing being so different in those books was, so it's nice that they actually did it. My only complaint is the pricing of some of the gear could still use tweaking, granted I guess they might have to reprice lots of things and thus come out with a new codex to do that but...paying for flamers? BAH!

Overall the FAQ'd gear is great though, nice that the vehicles are more in line with their counterparts too.


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