# new primarchs for the making?...



## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

the question is - why can't the emperor make more primarchs of himself? all they need is his gene strucuture right? assuming they don't all fly away in a freak accident - so they all grow up basking in the untainted 'glory of the emperor'. (thought just came to me then) 

imagine what would happen if the space marines regained new untainted primarchs. 

haha its a funny idea what do u think -


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## Silb (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't think it would happen because I'm pretty sure advanced cloning (the kind that makes a clone which is just as strong as the creature it was cloned from) was only known by the emperor. When he got hooked up to the Golden Throne the Imperium lost tons of information that only he knew (I personally think they should have put him in a dreadnought and hooked it up to the Golden Throne so he could tell them all of that knowledge).


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

oh ok interesting - but i thought he could still communicate through 'psycic means' and such. - but interesting idea the dreadthrone emepero which would be very cool indeed

keep posting guys - this is a wacky thought but it occured to me - what exactly would happen if humanity did get new primarches (along with its existing) a new crusade perhaps?

thoughts/ideas/opinions welcomed


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

i think there are too many complications and too many risks


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Who needs new Primarches? They isn't anything wrong with the current ones, except that they are missing. Making new Primarches would be considered Heretical, as its doing what only the Emperor should do.


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## CaptainBailean (Feb 20, 2008)

agreed, as far as the imperium knows, most of thier primarchs are still alive. in fact lion el' johnson is alive, hes just in stasis so he doesnt die in battle, and so is marenus calagar, although he was poisoned by fulgrim after the horus heresy. and they imperium wouldnt need new primarchs anywways if lemun russ ever gets back from the eye of terror with the seed of life, than the imperium can have the emperor back in full working condition


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

CaptainBailean said:


> agreed, as far as the imperium knows, most of thier primarchs are still alive. in fact lion el' johnson is alive, hes just in stasis so he doesnt die in battle, and so is marenus calagar, although he was poisoned by fulgrim after the horus heresy. and they imperium wouldnt need new primarchs anywways if lemun russ ever gets back from the eye of terror with the seed of life, than the imperium can have the emperor back in full working condition


you mean roboute guilliman, and yeah i agree with Silb. and the emperor can communicate, but it is severely draining on him. he is practically dead, somethin about his soul being stuck between the real world and the warp because of the golden throne. but aside from that, the mechanicum cant even make all the fancy gadgets they used to have because of lost STC blueprints, so how the heck are they gonna make something as complicated as a primarch?


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

thomas2 said:


> Who needs new Primarches? They isn't anything wrong with the current ones, except that they are missing. Making new Primarches would be considered Heretical, as its doing what only the Emperor should do.


good point - but the thing is they are missing 

so lets say that the emperor somehow manages to pass his knowledge down -and orchestrates HIMSELF the remaking of his geneseed for several new primarches to be placed in with the already existing(maybe replacing the ones who left in the horus heresy) - lets say this sparks another golden age of man - what would happen? would the space marines cohert back to legions and crusade into the eye of terror - maybe looking for the seed of life or something along those lines - would they spread humanity to the far depths of the galaxy 

remember guys this threads supposed to be speculative, and fun - not arguements about why this woudn't work

mr.d


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

but what about all th new chapters over the years....do you mean to tell me they have all come from all the originall primearchs, because on a real life and genetic level...that would be utter havoc because the gene WOULD degrade over time it is the nature of dna and genetics....so there would have to be some new material from either a primarch type or and actual primarch plus for te sake ofvariety, surely the tarrean lords would create new primarchs if for no other reason but to reinnforce their astartes and help to continue strong and reliable leaderships...just rambling...lol


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

What about the untouchables, the Star Childs. arnt they supposed to be the emperors children or something, im sure they could be used and Cloned , since they are direct decendants of the emperor. but they cant be found by psychic powers, so they are hidden well. 
There is very little fluff around them, so that might be an angle for some new Heavy duty Primarchs..


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

Lets assume that whoever the Emperor chooses to bestow this knowledge upon survives his mental communication, due to the Emperor being such a powerful psyker, AND understands the knowledge AND retains the knowledge long enough to use it. This person would also need to be able to convey it others to help him. And of course those around him would need to believe him.. so the Emperor would logically have to expend even more energy to let others know as well, since if he didn't whoever he gave the knowledge to would probably just be called a heretic and cleansed.

Would the High Lord of Terra want to risk another Horus Heresy? Sure if they knew the new primarchs would be 100% loyal they would be more keen to the idea, but there is no such assurances.

Its an interesting theory but there are simply to many problems in actually pulling it off.


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

mmm good points and your right - well haha lets assume that the emperor passed all the information to the already exisitng loyal primarchs with their psycic help - including how they were supposed to be made and what chapters the new primarchs would overlook - including all the other intagibles... the primarchs gorw up are not tainted by choas and look very promising - what next? ...


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, seeing as the corpse god is DEAD, I can't see his kids jumping to continue his regime. Most of the loyal primarchs are AWOL or got seriously owned during the Horus Heresy, so I don't think anyone even knows how to make Primarchs anymore. 

-Dirge


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

hey guys - well it looks like everyone's having a hard time in getting their head around this little wacky theory....
but try to be imaginitive about this - the whole what if? factor coming into play..

still - i value your opinoins so keep them coming


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

well, one thinng i don't think that any of us have taken into account are the 2 primarchs not yet named or really mentioned in fluff..the 2nd and 11th legions primarchs...they are the 2 mysterious legions that have no info but clearly have, did and/or do still exist(ed)...so whats up with them are they still around? they could be...who knows and if they are why couldn't they be used as genestock....?


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

delta13 said:


> well, one thinng i don't think that any of us have taken into account are the 2 primarchs not yet named or really mentioned in fluff..the 2nd and 11th legions primarchs...they are the 2 mysterious legions that have no info but clearly have, did and/or do still exist(ed)...so whats up with them are they still around? they could be...who knows and if they are why couldn't they be used as genestock....?


I certainly havn't forgotten about them. But in my dark lil' heart I'm hoping GW actually does have plans for these and will eventually do something relating to them. Most likely once they've ran out of other ideas to rob of us our hard-earned dollar.

Of course some people have tried to use these two primarchs in their fluff for their chapter. I personally don't like this because I try to imagine all player generated fluff existing in one continuous 'verse (it is a big universe after all, plenty of room for many, many, many chapters/craftworlds/britney spears-worshiping imperial heretics), and this obviously creates conflicts within that 'verse.

But in the end peoples' fluff is their own and rarely would it have any effect on an actual game being played. Now if they tried to field their primarch with home-cooked stats, thats another issue.


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

i agree, and even i am guilty of attempting to use the 11th chapter as the source of my chapter and primarch but i thought ..naaa its too big and MY chapter is just that a chapter and not a legion...plus it is a lot more involved (as far as details in the fluff) to have to be responsible for a primarchial legion or chapter than most would think...and i think it is better to keep DIY's to a smaller scale especially when it comes to marines as we all know how the imperium trys to keep constraints on marines so as to avoid another heresy type situation hence the whole codes in the first place...lol


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The Emperor thought of his Primarchs as Infallible. Obviously not, and I do not think he would want to unleash them upon the Galaxy once again.

However, that's also presenting the problem of whether they do have the knowledge - after all, it's hardly STC data.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think the easier thing to do would be the emperor to turn some of the traitors back to the good side. apart from maybe lorgar who would say to the emperor " i wanted to worship you and you grounded me for it then the whole bloody galaxy prays to you and you dont get off your lazy arse and sort them out" so he wouldnt turn back just on principle. 

then angron never really liked the emperor anyway so no chance of that one.

so the ones that might: 

you have fulgrim who would want the emperors mercy to get rid of the daemon possessing him he didnt really turn all the way as he realised his mistake by nearly killing ferrus mannus. (the daemon killed ferrus)

mortarion would probably turn back if he could get rid of his trench foot and gangrine.

from what the book legion tells us alpharius didnt turn traitor, he was helping the imperium so maybe he is still fighting for the emperor anyway.

perturabo would if the emperor promised to let him kill dorn and seeing as he's dead it would work out for both parties really  

and if the emperor said sorry to magnus about leman russ then he would turn back seeing as it was horus that tricked russ into destroying prospero. 

so a little family reunion would be the easiest way of getting the primarch numbers up instead of making some new ones.


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i think the easier thing to do would be the emperor to turn some of the traitors back to the good side. apart from maybe lorgar who would say to the emperor " i wanted to worship you and you grounded me for it then the whole bloody galaxy prays to you and you dont get off your lazy arse and sort them out" so he wouldnt turn back just on principle.
> 
> then angron never really liked the emperor anyway so no chance of that one.
> 
> ...



haha umm interesting but i doubt the emperor would want his unlcean daemon prince geno sons back for some reason... and the primarchs like perturbo , mortarion etc just woudn't come back there to corrutpted by the choas gods, not to mention the uproar in the ordo herecticus and what not.


still back on topic, if the emperor did make new primarchs and raised them to be a splitting images of himself - to the point where the whispers of choas all but unneffected them, surley man kind would turn back into a 'golden age' or even take over the whole galaxy(or something along those lines) ??


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Read the Horus Heresy series of books. In one of them (False Gods if I remember correctly) it's explained that the Chaos Gods gave the Emperor the power to create the Primarchs. Then he betrayed them, and lost this ability.

So yeah, that's why. You need the power of Chaos to create Primarchs. They are effectively Daemon Princes, and that's why the Imperium can't create any more - because only Chaos have that power and they've been using it all this time to churn out plenty of 'Primarchs'.


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

What ifff Fabius Bile for some reason worked with the Imperium?

As far as I'm aware he doesn't have knowledge or ability to create new primarchs but he CAN clone them. I've read quitea few times that he made clones of Horus though I'm not sure whether they where as good as the original in terms of strength, prowess etc. But still a clone of a primarch even if not a perfect one would be pretty kick arse. Ofcourse Abadon had to come an kill the clones and destroy Horus's original body or what was left of it anyway. But you got Roboute in stasis so surely they good take DNA from him and clone him? Not sure about the others though. Leman Russ is in the eye of terror supposedly. Jaghatai Khan apparently lost in the webway and the others I can't remember their names >_>


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Read the Horus Heresy series of books. In one of them (False Gods if I remember correctly) it's explained that the Chaos Gods gave the Emperor the power to create the Primarchs. Then he betrayed them, and lost this ability.
> 
> So yeah, that's why. You need the power of Chaos to create Primarchs. They are effectively Daemon Princes, and that's why the Imperium can't create any more - because only Chaos have that power and they've been using it all this time to churn out plenty of 'Primarchs'.


wow very interesting - i find this very ironic - so the emperor had the power to betray the choas gods - but before that he worked with them? - or at least their power? - ha to funny - so the light and strength of all mankind was once a 'lacky' (for lack of a better term)of the choas gods. LOL


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

well it actually kind of makes sense, now i am unsure as to the validity of its reference in the Horus heresy book, i have read them but do not remember off hand about this particular subject, but again it makes sense, as all the reference and fluff material surrounding the Emperor DOES state that he was a 'WARLORD' who basically was conquering the earth...and sure, later fluff says he was 'UNITING' humanity, but we all know history is written by the victor and usually in the victors favor and making the Victor look like the good guy or as though he were fighting for a genuine or good cause... but to me, it sounds like the Emperor was just another chaos influenced power hungry champion of chaos who, was also a psycher and also a fairly smart mo-fo, and it would also suite the nature of a chaos champ to betray the ruinous powers...he simply got to big for his britches and thought he could defeat or deny the chaos powers or maybe he simply thought he could do it on his own....and like many men who accomplish great things maybe he simply formed a god complex and maybe that is what spurred him on to betray the ruinous powers and branch out on his own...and Horus and the heresy were chaos's way of ironically giving him what he wanted..immortality....cause we all know how ironic and twisted the chaos powers can and will be...hence the phrase..."carefull what you wish for....you just might get it..."


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

It doesn't state explicitly that this is the truth about how the Emperor created the primarchs (with help from the Chaos Gods), this is part of the argument chaos uses on Horus to sway him against the Emperor. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be taken literally or as a lie to sway Horus against the Emperor and I can't find any information online to either confirm or revoke the theory.


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

Yeah but how could the Emperor be swayed to their side?
I've read somewhere (I think on Lexicanum.com) that the Emperor is the one being strong enough to stop Chaos from flooding into the material world so surely that means he's pretty good at resisting taint right? And I've also read that he was immune to the adverse effects of the warp and Chaos or something along those lines, like the Sensei are (his decendants).

Maybe instead of creating more Primarchs they could perfect the Gene-seed and somehow find away to produce it quicker and more efficiently. Also "mass produce" the Legio Custodes because as far as I'm aware of a "normal" SM vs a Custodian is like a Imperial Guardsman going against an SM. Immagine that. All the chapters using Sms as strong as the Legio Custodes wouldn't really need Primarchs then >_>


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

Luciferi said:


> Yeah but how could the Emperor be swayed to their side?
> I've read somewhere (I think on Lexicanum.com) that the Emperor is the one being strong enough to stop Chaos from flooding into the material world so surely that means he's pretty good at resisting taint right? And I've also read that he was immune to the adverse effects of the warp and Chaos or something along those lines, like the Sensei are (his decendants).
> 
> Maybe instead of creating more Primarchs they could perfect the Gene-seed and somehow find away to produce it quicker and more efficiently. Also "mass produce" the Legio Custodes because as far as I'm aware of a "normal" SM vs a Custodian is like a Imperial Guardsman going against an SM. Immagine that. All the chapters using Sms as strong as the Legio Custodes wouldn't really need Primarchs then >_>


 
well, i would agree about the part of the possibility of chaos simply trying to sway horus, but in the same token what if it is true, what if the emperor is the only one strong enought to fight chaos...that could still mean he was a champion of chaos, simply the greatest that chaos has ever had... and as i said before maybe he tried to branch out on his own...and thats WHY the chaos powers decided to rchastrate the heresy so as to put him in his place or maybe because he (the Emperor) IS the fifth power of chaos maybe HE is the chaos undivided power...who knows, and as far as his offspring it is only a rumor as far as i know and if it is fact than maybe they are much like the necron pariahs...but back to the subject of primarchs...lol. i would imagine that both the adeptus mechanicus and lords of terra would be very cautious (although no totally against) the idea of new primarchs....like i said maybe the 2nd and 11th legions are where GW is going to bring the new primarchsinto the fluff... maybe those legions are already known but not as the 2nd and 11th..(i.e. custodeus and legion of the damned) ad yes i know that rumor has it that the Lotd is from some fire hawks or pheonix something or other chapter, but what if its not, what if it is either the 2nd or 11th legion...anyways i think i am getting off topic...lol i would say it is very feasable that new primarchs would be and could be made, its just a matter of wether the lords of terra, adeptus mechanicus and inquisition will allow it and if so to what extent will it be controlled or monitored and made efficient....


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

*primarchs*



Luciferi said:


> Yeah but how could the Emperor be swayed to their side?
> I've read somewhere (I think on Lexicanum.com) that the Emperor is the one being strong enough to stop Chaos from flooding into the material world so surely that means he's pretty good at resisting taint right? And I've also read that he was immune to the adverse effects of the warp and Chaos or something along those lines, like the Sensei are (his decendants).
> 
> Maybe instead of creating more Primarchs they could perfect the Gene-seed and somehow find away to produce it quicker and more efficiently. Also "mass produce" the Legio Custodes because as far as I'm aware of a "normal" SM vs a Custodian is like a Imperial Guardsman going against an SM. Immagine that. All the chapters using Sms as strong as the Legio Custodes wouldn't really need Primarchs then >_>


 
well, i would agree about the part of the possibility of chaos simply trying to sway horus, but in the same token what if it is true, what if the emperor is the only one strong enought to fight chaos...that could still mean he was a champion of chaos, simply the greatest that chaos has ever had... and as i said before maybe he tried to branch out on his own...and thats WHY the chaos powers decided to rchastrate the heresy so as to put him in his place or maybe because he (the Emperor) IS the fifth power of chaos maybe HE is the chaos undivided power...who knows, and as far as his offspring it is only a rumor as far as i know and if it is fact than maybe they are much like the necron pariahs...but back to the subject of primarchs...lol. i would imagine that both the adeptus mechanicus and lords of terra would be very cautious (although no totally against) the idea of new primarchs....like i said maybe the 2nd and 11th legions are where GW is going to bring the new primarchsinto the fluff... maybe those legions are already known but not as the 2nd and 11th..(i.e. custodeus and legion of the damned) ad yes i know that rumor has it that the Lotd is from some fire hawks or pheonix something or other chapter, but what if its not, what if it is either the 2nd or 11th legion...anyways i think i am getting off topic...lol i would say it is very feasable that new primarchs would be and could be made, its just a matter of wether the lords of terra, adeptus mechanicus and inquisition will allow it and if so to what extent will it be controlled or monitored and made efficient....


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

oops, sorry about the double reply


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

delta13 said:


> the Lotd is from some fire hawks or pheonix something or other chapter, but what if its not




As far as I'm aware it's like completely confirmed that they are the lotd I was reading about it on lexicanum.com while I was ill off school xD.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

The Wiki marines entry states that the LOTD are the Fire Hawks, apparently its cannon now (no-one has edited it so im assuming several people have read proof?). They also have explicitley stated that the Grey Knights are *NOT* one of the missing 2 legions but I don't think they've said they weren't *from* a founding legion? The HH books do suggest it could be mainly Death Guard geneseed that was used..


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Luciferi said:


> Yeah but how could the Emperor be swayed to their side?
> I've read somewhere (I think on Lexicanum.com) that the Emperor is the one being strong enough to stop Chaos from flooding into the material world so surely that means he's pretty good at resisting taint right? And I've also read that he was immune to the adverse effects of the warp and Chaos or something along those lines, like the Sensei are (his decendants).


Well yeah, the lackeys of the false Emperor would say that, wouldn't they. They're hardly going to go 'the Emperor can do exactly jack shit to stop Chaos'.

The Chaos Gods have existed for hundreds of millions of years and are spread across countless galaxies.

The Emperor, on the other hand, is some nobody who took an empire that already existed, reunited it then immediately died to his own subordinate.

I mean, does anyone buy the whole 'Emperor didn't fight Horus with his full power because he thought Horus could be redeemed' line, given that Horus had just killed billions, sieged Terra and was gloating over the body of Sanguinius about how far he'd fallen to Chaos? No, of course not, Horus won fair and square. The Emperor had to resort to cowardly psychic powers to survive.

So the Emperor wasn't even as strong as his own chaos-infused subordinate, nevermind the Chaos Gods themselves. Like all Psykers, the Emperor gained his power from the warp, specifically the Chaos Gods. He's nothing but a self-important cultist.


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

I swear the eldest of the Chaos gods (Khorne) only came to being during Earth's middle ages and the youngest around the 29th Millenium?


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Luciferi said:


> I swear the eldest of the Chaos gods (Khorne) only came to being during Earth's middle ages and the youngest around the 29th Millenium?


That's... outdated fluff. By quite a bit. For a start, the birth of Slaanesh destroyed the entire Eldar civilisation, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were all supposedly born on Earth, within a few thousand years of one another (according to old fluff), and nobody so much as notices? Right.

It's more plausible that humanity started to shape the Chaos Gods at that time. They already existed but they were formed into something human-centric by the increasing number of human souls that were coming into existance (remember, Chaos Gods are shaped by the souls of the living).

The Chaos Gods still existed long before humanity ever evolved. I think they're mentioned in some of the Necron and Eldar history fluff too.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Evan if it where possible, would you want to risk that utter catastrophy again, this time the Chaos gods could actualy harm them with them been more powerful than they were then.

What if all the new primarchs turn, Emp wouldnt risk it.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I think this swings back to the Emperor's still a Veggie, and so he won't make any more primarchs, because he's medically dead.

-Dirge


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> That's... outdated fluff. By quite a bit. For a start, the birth of Slaanesh destroyed the entire Eldar civilisation, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were all supposedly born on Earth, within a few thousand years of one another (according to old fluff), and nobody so much as notices? Right.
> 
> It's more plausible that humanity started to shape the Chaos Gods at that time. They already existed but they were formed into something human-centric by the increasing number of human souls that were coming into existance (remember, Chaos Gods are shaped by the souls of the living).
> 
> The Chaos Gods still existed long before humanity ever evolved. I think they're mentioned in some of the Necron and Eldar history fluff too.



Excuse my ignorance ;]


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

Even if the Emporer could create more primarchs i don't think he would. Through the traiter legions he saw his dream for mankind turned upside down into a nightmare. He sought to free mankind from the shackles of religon as he saw it and ended up becoming the religon humanity was shackled to. I don't think he would seek to allow anyone to walk that path again.


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, assuming that new primarch's were created and remained untainted by the warp, Mankind probably would take to the stars in a new Great Crusade. Even if they only replaced the primarch's that turned during the heresy, a primarch would most likely be given command of a marine legion, possibly over-rule the codex astartes in the process which would remove limits to the number of battlebrothers in the chapters. Then the one term I can really use to describe what follows is comeplete genocide. Anything that isn't human and imperial is put to the sword. And with a united empire, both tyranids and necrons would have a VERY hard time (it was only a chapter on macragge), and there could possibly even be a campaign into the Eye of Terror. Send in a few companies of Grey Knights with the crusade and you may be able to make the eye shrink. Who knows?


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

hmmmm very interesting...but somehow i think we are straying slightly from the original topic...lol


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

I was always interested in the idea of the Imperium combining all their forces and wiping out every other race 1 at a time


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

Just slightly straying away again, but didn't the Imperium have truces (spelling >_>?) with a few alien races during the great Crusade?
I may have read wrong though xD.


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

I think that new chapters would have to be formed around the new primarchs. I can't see them being accepted by chapters that already have primarchs of their own. I think that a large number of chapters would look down on them as newcomers and lapdogs of the administratum. I really believe that new primarchs would create a lot of strife within the existing military structure of the Imperium and thus preventing any sort new grand crusade.


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

blitz451 said:


> I think that new chapters would have to be formed around the new primarchs. I can't see them being accepted by chapters that already have primarchs of their own. I think that a large number of chapters would look down on them as newcomers and lapdogs of the administratum. I really believe that new primarchs would create a lot of strife within the existing military structure of the Imperium and thus preventing any sort new grand crusade.


good point but i disagree. if new primarchs were made and raised in the imperium they like all primarchs, they would be looked upon like gods, as they literally are parts of the emperor - and i could see these new primarchs taking over the chapters(legions)that had their primarchs rebel in the horus heresy, another theory is that mankind NEEDS new primarchs... it seems like since the horus heresy mankind has all but stop any exploration and advanced in technologies etc - and now are focused on shakily holding the imperium together... this spells disaster as its only a matter of time before something like abbadon or an orks waaaagh!, or tyranid fleet breaks through wordly defenses and destroys more of mankind. BUT new primarchs would - like someone before me said, - would bring a 'new age' to mankind - which will ultimatley result in another crusade(the mass killing of all other races) and maybe even bring a campain into the warp, maybe effectivley closing it off or something of the like.... 

just some speculation.. :grin:


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## black_room_dog (Mar 27, 2008)

IMHO, the creation of the new Primarchs would lead to nothing but strife and civil war, 'coz yeah the first-founding chapters wouldn't accept the replicants of Sanguinius or say Ferrus Manus, and the later-founding chapters would join this mess as they also have some gene-seed from a certain Primarch.
But still it would be an interesting plot turn in the 40k Universe =) And I personally want to see the Emperor as a Dreadnought leading his loyal armies against new strifers and heretics. =)))


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## IronSnake9 (Mar 15, 2008)

but think of this ..... having more primarches would mean more space marine legions and eventurly one of them is going to turn sour causing another heresy on a massive scale. it would be the end of space marines!!!


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

mr.darkraider said:


> good point but i disagree. if new primarchs were made and raised in the imperium they like all primarchs, they would be looked upon like gods, as they literally are parts of the emperor - and i could see these new primarchs taking over the chapters(legions)that had their primarchs rebel in the horus heresy, another theory is that mankind NEEDS new primarchs... it seems like since the horus heresy mankind has all but stop any exploration and advanced in technologies etc - and now are focused on shakily holding the imperium together... this spells disaster as its only a matter of time before something like abbadon or an orks waaaagh!, or tyranid fleet breaks through wordly defenses and destroys more of mankind. BUT new primarchs would - like someone before me said, - would bring a 'new age' to mankind - which will ultimatley result in another crusade(the mass killing of all other races) and maybe even bring a campain into the warp, maybe effectivley closing it off or something of the like....
> 
> just some speculation.. :grin:


But remember when you say they are raised in the imperium that means raised by the administratum. The administratum is not the emporer nor does it have the same beliefs as the emporer. So we're talking about primarchs that have been raised with beliefs that run counter to everything the Asartes were taught (except the Black Templars of course). What are the other chapters going to do when the first founding chapters reject the new primarchs? 

When you say they will replace the traitor chapters i assume you mean that they will form the old chapters around them with new Asartes which is what i believe they will have to do. 

I'm sure that the people of the imperium would look at them as gods and the Asartes would look at them as another potential heresy. Add the wariness of other chapters plus the god like status granted by the people, add a healthy dose of the administratum self interest and the suble whispers of the chaos gods, yeah this is a disaster waiting to happen. :scare:


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

(was a double post) real post below...(sorry moderators etc)


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

blitz451 said:


> But remember when you say they are raised in the imperium that means raised by the administratum. The administratum is not the emporer nor does it have the same beliefs as the emporer. So we're talking about primarchs that have been raised with beliefs that run counter to everything the Asartes were taught (except the Black Templars of course). What are the other chapters going to do when the first founding chapters reject the new primarchs?
> 
> When you say they will replace the traitor chapters i assume you mean that they will form the old chapters around them with new Asartes which is what i believe they will have to do.
> 
> I'm sure that the people of the imperium would look at them as gods and the Asartes would look at them as another potential heresy. Add the wariness of other chapters plus the god like status granted by the people, add a healthy dose of the administratum self interest and the suble whispers of the chaos gods, yeah this is a disaster waiting to happen. :scare:



Ah i see what you mean and yes there would be complications but i can't see the chapters rejecting new primarchs(if thats the case) either that or new chapters/legions would be created - the simple fact is that it doesn't matter who raises them they ARE parts of the emperor and i doubt the chapters would deny the emperor - when i speculate on the primarchs being raised by the imperium - i dont mean the administratum - surley the emperor would want to have some input into the raising of new primarchs(possibly with phycic help with the existing primarchs) - and i doubt the remaining primarchs would want the admin to have a hand - most likley the remaining primarchs would help rasie and teach them the ways of the galaxy and combat with the help of some loyal captains.. then again it woudn't really matter as obviously the home world of the primarchs and how there raised really doesn't matter - as like the existing primarchs who were raised on much more perilous places then terra were still pure hearted until the whispers of choas came..
on that topic i doubt that the whispers of choas would effect the primarchs to the extent the horus heresy did - as the choas gods HAD a vendetta to the emperor as the emperor betrayed them - also the gods woudn't spark another heresy as they need humanity to survive - and all the better with the new primarchs as - blood will be shed(khorne), new technologies will be made(tzeentch), a time of prosper within the people will bloom(slaanesh) and obviosly decay of the otrher races through war(nurgle).
If anything mankind is in dire need of something.. primarchs maybe it.

once again its purly speculation on a "what if" basis - please keep the posts productive.

mr.d


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Her, hear mr.darkraider I agree


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

The golden throne keeps the web gate to earth from collapsing and letting Chaos run amok that is why he is not in a dreadnaught. As for creating new primarchs, that just wouldn't be any fun besides would you really want two of any primarch running around. Just look at the trouble the Alpha Legion has.


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

mr.darkraider said:


> Ah i see what you mean and yes there would be complications but i can't see the chapters rejecting new primarchs(if thats the case) either that or new chapters/legions would be created - the simple fact is that it doesn't matter who raises them they ARE parts of the emperor and i doubt the chapters would deny the emperor - when i speculate on the primarchs being raised by the imperium - i dont mean the administratum - surley the emperor would want to have some input into the raising of new primarchs(possibly with phycic help with the existing primarchs) - and i doubt the remaining primarchs would want the admin to have a hand - most likley the remaining primarchs would help rasie and teach them the ways of the galaxy and combat with the help of some loyal captains.. then again it woudn't really matter as obviously the home world of the primarchs and how there raised really doesn't matter - as like the existing primarchs who were raised on much more perilous places then terra were still pure hearted until the whispers of choas came..
> on that topic i doubt that the whispers of choas would effect the primarchs to the extent the horus heresy did - as the choas gods HAD a vendetta to the emperor as the emperor betrayed them - also the gods woudn't spark another heresy as they need humanity to survive - and all the better with the new primarchs as - blood will be shed(khorne), new technologies will be made(tzeentch), a time of prosper within the people will bloom(slaanesh) and obviosly decay of the otrher races through war(nurgle).
> If anything mankind is in dire need of something.. primarchs maybe it.
> 
> ...



Ok i wasn't aware that we were already assuming some of the original primarchs had been restored, but even so after having already fought their brothers once i can see where even these primarchs would have some serious reservations about creating more. I think perhaps you see far too much involvment from the emperer from within the golden throne. Now i may be totally off base here but to the best of my recollection it has been nearly centuries since anyone has heard from the emperer. Some even believe him to be dead. 

I also don't believe that Chaos needs humanity at all. I'm pretty confident that if Chaos could wipe out all humanity they'd do it in a heartbeat. The Chaos gods existed before humanity and they will exist after it as well. Just like humanity rose to replace the Eldar after their fall so to will another rise in the place of humanity. Even if there were no other races the chaos have also always been more the happy to make war upon themselves.

I don't see the imperium as being nearly as stagnant as you do. Just because there are no grand crusades doesn't mean there is no expansion at all. Also it was not just the primarchs that enabled the success of the crusade. There were a number of fleets that had no Asartes attached to them at all. I think if anything the imperium is still recovering from the massive losses they incurred during the heresy. Don't just look at he space marine chapters that turned look to the guard and titan legions that were lost to chaos as well.

Not that the idea of new primarchs doesn't have merit, i just think that even assuming it's possible, it's a very dangerous proposition.


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## mr.darkraider (Mar 5, 2008)

blitz451 said:


> Ok i wasn't aware that we were already assuming some of the original primarchs had been restored, but even so after having already fought their brothers once i can see where even these primarchs would have some serious reservations about creating more. I think perhaps you see far too much involvment from the emperer from within the golden throne. Now i may be totally off base here but to the best of my recollection it has been nearly centuries since anyone has heard from the emperer. Some even believe him to be dead.
> 
> I also don't believe that Chaos needs humanity at all. I'm pretty confident that if Chaos could wipe out all humanity they'd do it in a heartbeat. The Chaos gods existed before humanity and they will exist after it as well. Just like humanity rose to replace the Eldar after their fall so to will another rise in the place of humanity. Even if there were no other races the chaos have also always been more the happy to make war upon themselves.
> 
> ...


yeah granted points, its really a matter of perspective - it been 10 000 years since the heresy so, there not exactly still "crippled" in a sense, and even though they probably aren't as stagnant as i thought - the amount of expansion is no where near as tremedous as when the crusades were happening, and mankind is much more vunerable - since the heresy have lost there "grip" on the galaxy as being one of the most - if not the strongest force.
the primarchs would have reservations but i beleive that they would be more vigilant into seeing them rasied 'proper' in a sense - also as i mentioned before the choas gods had a vendetta against the emperor as he turned his back on the choas gods, seeking for immortality - so they all intervened so start the heresy which ironically gave the emperor immortality as he know can live forever - but he's crippled in the golden throne.
IMO the choas gods would not destroy humanity in a heartbeat - they dont' need humanity but they like having them (in a way) as they have been a main source of there now current, awsome powers eg choas space marines. - also no other race is so easily influenced by the gods.
also the eldar didn't have any affiliation with the choas gods - exept for the accidental creation of slaanesh.

all your points are justifed:victory: and it is a dangerous proposition - but desperate times need desperate measures - and primarchs _could_ be it, assuming all the blah about the emperor/existing primarchs/apothecaries still being all to do it:biggrin:

mr.d


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

Well said. k:

In terms of playing the game i would love to see primarchs added in at some point (won't happen). However when it comes to the fluff the primarchs don't interest me as much because i can relate more to the rank and file.


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

mr.darkraider said:


> he turned his back on the choas gods, seeking for immortality - so they all intervened so start the heresy which ironically gave the emperor immortality
> 
> mr.d



Wasn't the emperor immortal anyway..?


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

A few years back GW said as far 40k is concerned there would NEVER be any offical primarch stats or models(Epic did have some though). GW North American released some "house rules" on their web site for primarchs and were promptly censered by GW UK. They means they got into alot of trouble. The trouble is people Downloaded the rules. I played in a few games with models and rules. Let me tell you they were truely GODs of war. Lion'el Johnson's stats were the best. Not just saying that because I play Dark Angels. They were better than greater daemons. If I can get ahold of the rules from some friends I will post.


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## delta13 (Feb 10, 2008)

yeah that would be great if you could get them and post them...would love to see them but if you think about it... in game terms they really would be neigh unstoppable and almost pointless in playing because anyone without one is doomed to lose.... especially if what you say is true about them being gods of war then whats the point...i think they are better left in the fluff, and as much as i would like to play with them myself i just don't know that it would really be fair to use them or practical....


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

I remember a message from a GM staff member i believe not long ago which stated : imagien(SP) the mecha guys have only just found a fault with the golden throne, now what would happen if this information was 1,000 years old, 

and then it had a list

a look for the lost primarchs
b start messing with the gene seed
c.....
d....
anyway something like that, if someone could find the source i would be grateful
but also remember that the 40k timeline had been set the present, i think that the most likly thing is that their is going to be a major search for the lost primarchs, becuase they also have the memory or the emperor as well, so if they find the primarchs then they get the tech as well, 

anyway just a theory


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## delta555 (May 27, 2008)

yeah but now with apocalypse cant you technically bring them back in and plus in full appocalypse the enemy usualy has many baneblades and if these rules are so ridiculous multiple baneblades couldnt kill one then i would see the point


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## Stiggy (Mar 17, 2008)

i think the imperium does not have the technology. First of all, because they have not spoken of cloning to my knowledge, and second, they still use augmetics and and those meat habs or whatever to get limbs and stuff for those who need them or can pay for them


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Bogg said:


> What about the untouchables, the Star Childs. arnt they supposed to be the emperors children or something, im sure they could be used and Cloned , since they are direct decendants of the emperor. but they cant be found by psychic powers, so they are hidden well.
> There is very little fluff around them, so that might be an angle for some new Heavy duty Primarchs..


Check out the current necron 'dex, it has fluff regarding the "untouchables" that strongly suggests(I.E. does not explicitly state) that they are a creation of the C'Tan.



Unknown Primarch said:


> i think the easier thing to do would be the emperor to turn some of the traitors back to the good side. apart from maybe lorgar who would say to the emperor " i wanted to worship you and you grounded me for it then the whole bloody galaxy prays to you and you dont get off your lazy arse and sort them out" so he wouldnt turn back just on principle.
> 
> then angron never really liked the emperor anyway so no chance of that one.
> 
> ...


someone fergits that they is DAEMON PRINCES, and kinda difficult to come back from that :angel:



Pseudo said:


> Read the Horus Heresy series of books. In one of them (False Gods if I remember correctly) it's explained that the Chaos Gods gave the Emperor the power to create the Primarchs. Then he betrayed them, and lost this ability.
> 
> So yeah, that's why. You need the power of Chaos to create Primarchs. They are effectively Daemon Princes, and that's why the Imperium can't create any more - because only Chaos have that power and they've been using it all this time to churn out plenty of 'Primarchs'.


Read it again , but more cloesly. The section you refer to is when Horus is being seduced to chaos. It is in the best interest of the ruinous powers to claim credit for the emperor's holy work, it makes betrayal even easier.

I agree with the lie of thought that new primarchs= new crusade. However, I also believr that New primarchs+ new crusade-The Emperor= new heresy, especially with marine chapters going renegade, and the original traitor legions still around. The Emperor would have to do some serious housecleaning first.


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

I don't think you could create new Primarchs because during the crusades the emperor was strong and powerful but now he's an old man on a thronedo we really want copies of that?


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Lolthirster said:


> I don't think you could create new Primarchs because during the crusades the emperor was strong and powerful but now he's an old man on a thronedo we really want copies of that?


I highly doubt age has anything to do with it, I mean how many thousands of years old was he when he first created the original Primarchs?

Before they even think about making new Primarchs I want all the loose ends tied up for the current set >.< although I highly doubt they would even begin to think of making new ones.

But more on topic, new Primarchs are highly unlikely as pointed out because of the state of the Emperor and the hostility they'd get almost straight away, I have a feeling all those billions who think the Emperor is a God would'nt like it


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

Kickback said:


> I highly doubt age has anything to do with it, I mean how many thousands of years old was he when he first created the original Primarchs?
> 
> Before they even think about making new Primarchs I want all the loose ends tied up for the current set >.< although I highly doubt they would even begin to think of making new ones.
> 
> But more on topic, new Primarchs are highly unlikely as pointed out because of the state of the Emperor and the hostility they'd get almost straight away, I have a feeling all those billions who think the Emperor is a God would'nt like it


they will be getting gene-seed from the emperor who is weak and crippled. I don't think the Primarchs will be primarchs......


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Plus, as the Emperor is still rotting into slime on the Golden Throne, he cannot make any more copies of himself, as he is (as mentioned above) rotting into slime.

-Dirge


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

on son of mortarions quote about traitor primarchs being daemons and not being able to turn back. 

if chaos can turn them one way why cant the power of the god-emperor turn them back. if he was so unpowerful then the chaos gods would have totally killed him by now and be done with the imperium having hope. but He has such vast powers that its quite possible to return his sons to glory and stick two fingers up to chaos at the same time.

i do hope in the HH books that we have abit of the emperor pondering on why they turned and if he felt anything about some of the mistakes he made with his sons or if he didnt give a shit.


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