# Hydra Flak Tank vs Leman Russ BT



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Hello people

Facing a bit of indecision with my 1500pt guard List.

Its compromised of a Primaris, four Mech Vet teams and three Vendettas

I'm left with exactly 300pts. The candidates are:

Two Squadrons of two Hydras or two Leman Russ Battle tanks (with some point jiggery to give them hull lascannons)

The Hydras are better at killing all non MEQ infantry (and with Nids around the corner that's the most infantry I expect to see), scoring more wounds than the Battle cannon.

The Russes are slightly better at killing vehicles, but with three Vendettas I'm not lacking in the anti armour department.

Both are actually pretty equal at forcing wounds onto MCs, the examples I used for MathHammering were Carnifexes and Nurgle/Tzeentch Daemon Princes and both only scored a wound a turn (). Note that for the working out 2 Hydras = 1 Russ, being Squadron'd and all

One factor is that I already _have_ two Russes, building the Hydras isn't out of the question though.

What's your takes on this?


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

I love the Hydras; the models look ace (got one from FW at games day) and they work really well in pairs for killing all sorts (that isn't AV14)

Then again, it seems like your list could maybe use a bit more heavy armour to stop your vendettas from taking too much fire. I'd rather my opponent shoot my BT's than Vendettas with lascannons...


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I would also consider the option of taking 1 leman russ and taking 2 hydra's.

Although it is also worth asking as to whether this is an all comers tournament army or whether it is against specific opponents. If your facing a lot of tau or eldar go for the hydra's, any one else I'd be inclined to go for the LR.

To be fair though, you have quite a mechanised list so the comment above about taking LR to take fire away from your chimera's, vendetta's should work quite nicely. Though I would be inclined to take all HB's on your LR's should do a lot more damage than the Hydra's. Although I would be inclined to not put your LR's in a squadron, as immobilised results are a killer!


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

Double Leman. The presence of a threatening AV14 vehicle will do a lot to draw fire away from your more awesome vehicles (like Vendettas) and also provide a fantabulous model to lead the choo choo train of 3+ cover saves.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

At least one russ. The inclusion of a lethal large blast forces the opposition to spread out and hug cover. 

I don't buy the shot soaking arguement though- anyone worth his salt is going to know straight away which vehicle is more threatening in a given circumstance and target it. It's not as if you can hide the dettas!

Have you decided not to use the dettas transport capacity? As a gunboat they are fairly easy to stun for a turn so it's nice to have an alternative option.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks for the comments guys 



bishop5 said:


> I love the Hydras; the models look ace (got one from FW at games day) and they work really well in pairs for killing all sorts (that isn't AV14)
> 
> Then again, it seems like your list could maybe use a bit more heavy armour to stop your vendettas from taking too much fire. I'd rather my opponent shoot my BT's than Vendettas with lascannons...


Well, not really well. As I said, when you actually get equations on the go they cannot reliably kill MC's and they can only glance a rhino on a 5 or a 6 (don't talk to me about rear armour). Heavy armour doesn't scare people into forgetting what vendettas can do, it s a nice inclusion but wont stop the Gunships being targeted.



matty570 said:


> I would also consider the option of taking 1 leman russ and taking 2 hydra's.
> 
> Although it is also worth asking as to whether this is an all comers tournament army or whether it is against specific opponents. If your facing a lot of tau or eldar go for the hydra's, any one else I'd be inclined to go for the LR.
> 
> To be fair though, you have quite a mechanised list so the comment above about taking LR to take fire away from your chimera's, vendetta's should work quite nicely. Though I would be inclined to take all HB's on your LR's should do a lot more damage than the Hydra's. Although I would be inclined to not put your LR's in a squadron, as immobilised results are a killer!


Tournament, my bad on that one, I just assume everybody is either familiar with my style or just looking for competitive play anyway 

HBs is not as great an addition as you may think. Its nice to force some wounds onto a target but the template should be enough. The Lascannons also mean my long range anti-tank isn't ruined if all the Vendettas manage to go down. See above for comment on target priority 



Sqwerlpunk said:


> Double Leman. The presence of a threatening AV14 vehicle will do a lot to draw fire away from your more awesome vehicles (like Vendettas) and also provide a fantabulous model to lead the choo choo train of 3+ cover saves.


See above for target priority statement 



OddJob said:


> At least one russ. The inclusion of a lethal large blast forces the opposition to spread out and hug cover.
> 
> I don't buy the shot soaking arguement though- anyone worth his salt is going to know straight away which vehicle is more threatening in a given circumstance and target it. It's not as if you can hide the dettas!
> 
> Have you decided not to use the dettas transport capacity? As a gunboat they are fairly easy to stun for a turn so it's nice to have an alternative option.


Vendettas are there purely as an offensive craft, can't see how a unit of Vets sitting inside will make a world of difference if it gets shaken for a turn (Vendettas have Extra Armour remember  ) Not being a gunboat doesn't make it any easier to stun.

Anyway, I want the Chimeras, who are responsible for aiding Horde Control and providing more targets


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I'd go with two Hydras and a single Russ. If that's not an option, then go for the double Russ. Hydras are fantastic vehicles imo but it's hard to argue with a battle cannon.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Concrete Hero said:


> Vendettas are there purely as an offensive craft, can't see how a unit of Vets sitting inside will make a world of difference if it gets shaken for a turn (Vendettas have Extra Armour remember  ) Not being a gunboat doesn't make it any easier to stun.
> 
> Anyway, I want the Chimeras, who are responsible for aiding Horde Control and providing more targets


The valk is the most mobile thing in the IG army- it's a shame not to even consider it's mobility and troop carrying capacity.

example- you have turn one against marines with a hammernator landraider or an orc battlewagon list. The dettas scout move allows you to deploy 3-4 melta guns (and potentially a squad with meltabombs) right beside your opponents centrepiece on turn one (the detta can then run away again). 

If in general play the detta is stunned it can dump out it's contents to still contribute that turn.

With this in mind I would spend your last few points thusly (under used word that):

Russ

Drop primaris
Add two CHQs- probably with meltas 
Alternatively upgrade a vet squad with demolisions to kill battlewagons).


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

Concrete Hero said:


> Thanks for the comments guys
> 
> HBs is not as great an addition as you may think. Its nice to force some wounds onto a target but the template should be enough. The Lascannons also mean my long range anti-tank isn't ruined if all the Vendettas manage to go down. See above for comment on target priority


I guess the HB's go down to preference, the way I have always seen it is that giving the LR a lascannon is mixing its purpose. You want to be killing infantry with the battlecannon, hence the use of the HB's. Personally, I think that if you are still having problems with AT with having 3 detta's and AT on some troops then that solitary 50/50 lascannon shot from the LR isn't going to make that much difference.

Apologies as I'm guessing that you do this alrady but sticking some troops in at least one vendetta and outflanking it is fantastic, giving you rear armour, guarenteeing that you will get the shots off (when it arrives) and dropping off a scoring unit on to an objective at the same time can be very handy indeed.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think you should take a proper russ with plasma sponsons and some kind of counter-charge or aggressive unit. The hydras aren't needed at all with all those lascannons and meltas

To be honest though I don't particularly like the list. 40 IG really isn't many at all, especially since your melta squads are pretty disposable. I'd be worried about taking objectives, and having to leave guys back to hold me own in take and hold. Your KP count isn't great either.

The problem I see for you would be a mech enemy getting first turn and bombing it forward. You can easily fail to kill rhinos with lascannon fire (and even easier wave serpents and battlewagons) and everything is going to have a cover save. Then they charge you, and most basic troops can quite happily dismantle chimeras. Further, what's your plan to advance and take ground away from this kind of opponent?

I think a successful IG army has to be a bit less "copy and paste". It's not enough just to take as many good units as you can. What's the plan?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

OddJob said:


> The valk is the most mobile thing in the IG army- it's a shame not to even consider it's mobility and troop carrying capacity.
> 
> example- you have turn one against marines with a hammernator landraider or an orc battlewagon list. The dettas scout move allows you to deploy 3-4 melta guns (and potentially a squad with meltabombs) right beside your opponents centrepiece on turn one (the detta can then run away again).
> 
> ...


I have considered it  I just consider the Chimera to be a better option in this case.

I never intend to get out of transports, why would I? T3 and 4+ save that I've had top pay for, still a very soft unit. Granted the Vendetta _is_ faster than the Chimera, but I can fire all of my Melta guns from inside my Chimera and not fear return fire that will likely cripple/destroy the unit. And I'd rather avoid leaving a Vendetta within melta range of the enemy if I can.

I don't personally rate CHQs, I'm not going to benefit from the orders, making the points cost slightly redundant, and I'm losing out on what is arguably quite helpful anti-infantry. The amount of squads the Primaris has cleared up has been wonderfully helpful more than a few times. Not to mention the increased cost, I'd rather have another Russ.

I've never really seen the light in Demo's on Vets. Sure I can see how it might seem good, and lets even forget there's not a low chance I might kill myself in the blast, but what happens after the battlewagon is destroyed? The contents disgorge and turn my Guardsmen to paste.

And remember, Vendettas can't be _stunned_, only shaken.



matty570 said:


> I guess the HB's go down to preference, the way I have always seen it is that giving the LR a lascannon is mixing its purpose. You want to be killing infantry with the battlecannon, hence the use of the HB's. Personally, I think that if you are still having problems with AT with having 3 detta's and AT on some troops then that solitary 50/50 lascannon shot from the LR isn't going to make that much difference.
> 
> Apologies as I'm guessing that you do this alrady but sticking some troops in at least one vendetta and outflanking it is fantastic, giving you rear armour, guarenteeing that you will get the shots off (when it arrives) and dropping off a scoring unit on to an objective at the same time can be very handy indeed.



Anti-tank weakness wasn't suggested, its just a nice addition. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And its more likely an extra kill on harder hitting infantry like terminators and Nobz

Outflank Vendettas, don't move troops in them. And I'd rather just swoop onto the objective late game (that's what 5th ed is all about after all...). Why drop off a lone Vet squad when they can score from inside the Gunship.

On the note of deploying Vets; I think its better to look at the wider picture and the state you'll be in next turn, or even the turn after that if you deploy. What you're gaining may be quite nice but if it stops you from achieving something else, or just plain gets you killed (which is always an option when ten guardsmen disembark) is it worth it?.

I use Chimeras so I never really have to worry about that  At the risk of telling a dog how to bark, keep an eye on the rest of the battlefield.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

Concrete Hero said:


> Anti-tank weakness wasn't suggested, its just a nice addition. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And its more likely an extra kill on harder hitting infantry like terminators and Nobz
> 
> 
> 
> I guess your decision is made I was simply trying to provide some advice - though I will point out that 9 HB shots at BS4 are probably more likely to cause a wound on a terminator than a 1 BS4 LC shot.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I hope you haven't taken my replies the wrong way 

I'm enjoying this mini discussion, I've stated some things and asked for your opinions, you've offered them and I've attempted a counter to challenge them. I'm not looking to put down everything you say, just trying to get you to back them up so we can have a tactical talk. If you can convince or highlight something for me that I wasn't aware of before then brilliant, if not I hope I can at least make my counters to your ideas aware to you 

I didn't start this thread so people could offer their side then crumble after I question it.

I suppose it is, but if we're having three Heavy Bolters to one Lascannon, why can't I have three Lascannons to one Heavy Bolter? Not sure where you've gotten your numbers from there...


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Probably from the fact that you aren't allowed lascannon sponsons.

I think some kind of weapon upgrades do help on Leman Russ. I'd generally take plasma sponsons if I could possibly afford them.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Probably from the fact that you aren't allowed lascannon sponsons.
> 
> I think some kind of weapon upgrades do help on Leman Russ. I'd generally take plasma sponsons if I could possibly afford them.


That could just be it you know *facepalm* my bad...

I quite like the super Plassy set up on russes, Executioner with Plasma Cannons is pretty brutal. And 5 blasts is better than 1 Large in my opinion. Shame its quite expensive in comparison


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