# Vanguard Veterans



## Themidgetman14 (Jul 9, 2014)

I have decided to purchase a 5 man vanguard veteran squad and I was wondering if storm shield were worth the points. The reason why I'm asking is because is it really worth losing an extra attack or not. The weapons would be sergeant relic blade, power sword, power axe, thunder hammer and a pair of lightning claws (which obviously wouldn't include a storm shield. Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I recently played a small game against a guy who had 5 Vanguard with Relic Blade on the Sergeant, 4 Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields and Jump Packs. They wiped my Warlord's unit, running it down in melee, since the Boyz weren't high enough strength/in enough numbers to hurt them too much and the Power Klaw just skidded off them (and they rolled quite high, to be fair).

They're _extremely_ expensive, and I'm not sure you'd need the whole squad armed that way, but they're fairly effective when used as a scalpel unit, or to murderate something that's broken through your line and is threatening the rest of your army.


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## Themidgetman14 (Jul 9, 2014)

Cheers that's a very good point


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

You know what a Storm Shield gives you? A 3+ save. You know what a 14pt Marine has? Yeah. A 3+ save.

So a boltgun kills a 50pt Vanguard Marine with Hammer and Shield just as easily as a 14pt Tac Marine, which is why I don't like Vanguard very much at all, specially since they lost the ability to hide in melee the turn they arrived.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

On the other hand, a Nob with Power Klaw drastically evens a combat in favour of the Orks who can struggle with Marines if they're charged, while a Power Klaw is likely to bounce off Storm Shields.

Toe be honest, when a Vanguard with Storm Shield costs more than an Assault Terminator with the a 2+ armour save and a Thunder Hammer, you really need to think about how much you need the mobility offered by a Jump Pack and whether the thing you want them to fight can't be killed by something else.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Murderate! That's and instant classic :laugh:

Add to Vanguard the ability to Sweeping Advance if you're comparing them to Assault Terminators.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

as most people have stated is the cost..and comparison...but as usual nobody has add tactics or strategy..
my question is..what is their job? what do you hope them do accomplish? are they support?front line combatants etc..
the reason i ask is i never tell people not to use any model..yes some model are better but my belief is if yuo tool them right and in the right numbers and have a sound strategy for them go for it...
my only things would be 
:a getting the numbers of troops right...5 is too little..7-8 is probably about right..
b: give them the weapons need for the job they are intendend for

the other thing i would suggest is giving them a chaplin..just for the rerolls on the combat..they are an expensive unit so youll want maximum amount of damage output


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

They seem kind of like Chosen to me. If you gear them up, they can be a devastating precision strike unit, just like MidnightSun was saying. But as the player you gotta determine if that outweighs the exorbitant price cost. If terminators can fill the same role, and last longer, AND cost less, why not take terminators and either add in more models to your army/upgrades to other units? 

Just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt though, last time I had a SM army was 4th ed. So I may have no idea what I am talking about.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Personally I think I would play Vanguard Vets out of a Land Raider or Stormraven kitted with 3x Lightning Claws, 2x Power Axes, and Storm Shields for all. 220 points seems reasonable for a 3++ squad of AP3/AP2 attacks that can Sweep, and either delivery system has their own uses to offer.


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

ntaw said:


> Personally I think I would play Vanguard Vets out of a Land Raider or Stormraven kitted with 3x Lightning Claws, 2x Power Axes, and Storm Shields for all. 220 points seems reasonable for a 3++ squad of AP3/AP2 attacks that can Sweep, and either delivery system has their own uses to offer.


Completely forgot that a SS is 3++. That point cost is absolutely worth it for that survivability IMO.


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## Themidgetman14 (Jul 9, 2014)

For 300 points I can get a sergeant with relic blade and storm shield, a power axe and storm shield, a power sword and storm shield, a thunder hammer storm shield and finally a pair of lightning claws and jump packs and melta bombs for all.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The way I've used them recently is in a Storm Raven. 10 men WITHOUT Jump Packs and a Chaplain for Zealot with a couple of Power Fists. Works well to really finish off a crumbling flank, or support your centre.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I like that Stormraven loadout, @Sethis. Glad to see Chaplains are getting their good use again, Zealot was such a waste in 6th.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It would still be a Libby, ideally, but now you can't Bless from inside a transport (fucking retarded rule) and powers are a lot less reliable so the Chaplain gets a dust off.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> It would still be a Libby, ideally, but now you can't Bless from inside a transport (fucking retarded rule)


Why does that actually matter? 

I don't know of any Blessings that you could cast inside a transport that would last until you got out - as it stands, you disembark then fire off your Blessings or whatever.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Why does that actually matter?
> 
> I don't know of any Blessings that you could cast inside a transport that would last until you got out - as it stands, you disembark then fire off your Blessings or whatever.


It means if you have, say, Fortune or Invisibility, then you can't keep them up while embarked. So when you get shot down you don't have the buff up. Unlike last edition where you could benefit from things like Prescience even when someone destroyed your transport and assaulted you.

There's also the whole randomness aspect which wasn't present before.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> It means if you have, say, Fortune or Invisibility, then you can't keep them up while embarked. So when you get shot down you don't have the buff up. Unlike last edition where you could benefit from things like Prescience even when someone destroyed your transport and assaulted you.
> 
> There's also the whole randomness aspect which wasn't present before.


That's fair enough, but on the other hand, Fortune or Invisibility wouldn't help you any when you were shot down anyway. Str10 AP2 autohits for dudes inside Flyers, I believe?

Randomness is indeed a big new factor, as is being able to Deny said blessings.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It's more of a general shift away from Psykers in transports for several reasons, rather than that specific circumstance. I find the Chaplain is performing better for me overall.


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## Beaker (Mar 25, 2015)

Hi,

I have been reading with interest through the various posts on this thread - I have a set of the older finecast vanguard models and also a set of the newer plastic models. I was thinking of making a 10 man squad to use in my Ultramarines army. I know that this may not be very competitive but I always liked the sculpts of the finecast models and want to build and paint up a vanguard squad.

I am not sure how to loadout this squad and was thinking along the lines of:- 

A front row of 5 veterans with storm shields and bolt pistols 
A rear row of 5 veterans with bolt pistols and power weapons (still not sure which ones to pick) 
Are plasma pistols totally out for using with this squad - as some of the finecast models come with these weapons or should I remove these? 

Should the sergeant be in the front or back row? 

I was thinking of using either a Chaplain with jump pack or the Lord Executioner model along with this squad? 

Sorry for so many questions and not fully understanding / being confused with all the advice given in the posts. 
Thanks in advance.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Personally I run the following:

Sergeant with TH/SS
Fisticlaw
Claw / SS
Claw / Claw
Claw / Claw

I also like to throw in a Chaplain with Swiftstrike & Murder ( RG Relics).

As I use RG CTs I almost feel obligated to run around with jump packs, but I can definitely see the potential of this squad without the packs and just throwing them in an assault transport. The build I use above is generally for dealing with anything without a 2+ save, be that either counter attacking deep striking nasties, or charging up the flank shredding things.

Any spare points just throw in a melta bomb or two. They won't solve all of your problems (Hi Wulfen!) and occasionally your opponent will decide he wants them very, very dead; but that usually just means less pain for the rest of your army, so look on the bright side.

I have played with the RG formation that lets you deep strike and charge these guys. I've only done it a couple of times, but I've generally found the psychological effect it has on your opponents play is far more valuable than the actual damage output these guys get from it -if you can pull it off.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ancient thread, fellas.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I see no issue with the thread being opened again with legitimate questions and responses. Carry on.


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## Beaker (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks scscofield, I know its an old thread but I thought it was better to use this one as it sort of covers my query. Or is it better to start a new thread in this case?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaker said:


> Thanks scscofield, I know its an old thread but I thought it was better to use this one as it sort of covers my query. Or is it better to start a new thread in this case?


Resurrecting a thread is fine so long as you can add to the discussion continue the thread's purpose. 

I have not seen vanguard vets in any of my recent encounters, but from what I understand of SM tactics and loadouts the principle advantage they have is the ability to take multiple specialized cc weapons. 
So, for this to be worthwhile I would opt for taking at least three power weapons. To avoid going overboard on points, two swords and two axes, or have one of them be a powerfist. Total squad number would probably be eight, and the extra four guys would be standard issue. 
I like to avoid tooling up the sergeant in squads like these, since it prevents the swift removal of one of my special weapons via challenges. 

Tactics wise, I think these guys need to be supported by a tac squad in a rhino at least, something that can pick up the slack if they find themselves heavily targeted.


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## Beaker (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks Serpion5,

Would you use any storm shields or plasma pistols/grav pistols?


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Unfortunately the pistols didn't fall under the category of reduced price weapons, and as such don't seem very viable to me.

Which is a shame, because I really like the look of them.

Big fan of Stormshields, but then I play alot of marine players who tend to rely on good AP rather than Mathhammer, so not always a wise investment.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Storm shields are expensive, and only come into play when you lock into combat with enemy units toting power weapons or monstrous creatures. They have their uses, but in general I think they're a point sink.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

^ storm shields are a flat 3+ invuln, pretty handy in all phases of the game. Plus at 5x2 points per in Vanguard squads they're not terribly expensive.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

ntaw said:


> ^ storm shields are a flat 3+ invuln, pretty handy in all phases of the game. Plus at 5x2 points per in Vanguard squads they're not terribly expensive.


I see a veteran squad tooled up like this to anywhere between 150-200 pts, and my first instinct is to drown them in termagants. I will outnumber you immeasurably for the same points cost or less, and chances are I will win that protracted combat. What do your storm shields mean to termagants? Nothing. 

Things like this are why stormshields are not an automatic winning choice. Against a swarm like that you'd be lamenting the extra attacks you lost. It is my opinion that extra bodies and extra attacks make better points investments than making a single wound model more resilient than its default. 

I feel the only worthwhile storm shield users are characters that provide a buff or debuff, a handy warlord trait or special rule that benefits your army more than just the damage he will do. Librarians, chapter masters, and the rough equivalents.




Beaker said:


> Thanks Serpion5,
> 
> Would you use any storm shields or plasma pistols/grav pistols?


Sorry, missed this. I'd go with pistols. Two at most so your squad doesn't get too heavy on points. Bear in mind you will definitely want to be proactive with this choice.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I personally prefer to have weapons strike at initiative when I have marines - so dual lightning claws, or power weapons + pistols - maybe have 1 with a TH/SS so he can tank MCs/Dreads

In general though if I am fighting something of that caliber I don't send vanguard vets at them, terminators or devastators are way better pending the role desired.

----

Plasma pistols are ungodly expensive...ugh...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> my first instinct is to drown them in termagants


Well..yeah that works. Conversely, I've charged enemy units with full squads of Death Company and done basically nothing with 30+ wounds against 2+ and 3+ saves.

Hey @Beaker, are you facing horde armies with lots of infantry or are you facing a lot of elite units with better armour saves and attacking potential? Having even a slight idea of what else you have in the list and what sort of stuff you're regularly facing can have a huge impact on how they're kitted out. In Serp's example shields would certainly be a waste of points, but if your list had a ton of anti-infantry in it (I hear hordes don't like thunderfire cannons :grin then maybe you need something geared toward elite killing more. Likewise, if you have a bunch of stuff that deals with armour/elites already then the Vanguard would likely enjoy something a little less expensive.


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## Beaker (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks everyone for their help and advice.

In answer to ntaw - I haven't gamed recently and when I do it would be at my local Games Workshop store so I would generally not know what I would be up against in advance.


I have always liked the vanguard veterans and I liked the idea of using a front row of models with storm shields but have read the pros and cons of them in the replies. I suppose in many ways it is the building, modifying and painting that I am more interested in at the moment.

I was wanting to make a 10 man squad that if I was to use it in a game it would be relatively effective. I know the points can mount up quickly with these models. if I was using them in a game I could always cut the squad numbers down to say 8.


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