# hey does anyone think space marines are unbalanced i dont but......



## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

so me and my friend are always arguing because he thinks space marines are unbalanced he says that they are like walking tanks but i calmly told him he hasent got the right sort of weapons and tactics but that's me so id like to know what other people think:mrgreen:


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## Rahmiel (Jan 3, 2009)

I am quickly learning that SM are not invincible, they are well rounded and a great easy army to play (especially for younger gamers), which is why they are one of the most played armies. They only annoy me, cause everybody has them and thinks they are god-like for playing them. Plus they are overglorified by GW. C'mon give DE or Inquisition some new models already.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Space Marines are unbalanced. But conversely to your friends reasoning.

They are underpowered against Horde Lists, and require dedicated lists to really make the best of them. However, that means that they're shocking against Mech/Armour lists.

All which is in contradiction to their 'Tactical' effectiveness.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

they are very unbalanced, especially with the new codex, my god, how could any writer get away with writing something so diabolical, I mean things Like Cassius and Vanguard, how could they get away with making balanced space marine lists such utter utter UTTER shit.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Space Marines are probably the most balanced army around currently, balanced in the regard that GW ensures that the SM can beat and be beaten by every other army. If anything though the latest Tournament ranking would suggest the SM are unbalanced in the worst way by being far less competitive than they once were.
I for one think it'll just be a matter of time till some great MEQ players crack the SM's secrets and begin to improve their Tournament rankings once more.

EDIT: Crap! Ninja'd thrice.


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## NecronCowboy (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know, I play Necrons, so I also get a 3+ save, and then half the time they get up even after you kill them.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

After reading through the marine codex a few times I would have to say that they are a bit unbalanced. mostly because they seem a bit too cheap for what they do and the insane number of options that are available to them. But in general the marine armies are still fairly easy to defeat with most armies.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

CHEAP for what they do? I'd like to have some of what you're smoking. The basic space marine can't move and shoot full distance, pays for a 3+ save when other races get 4+ cover almost all the time for less points, sucks in combat, and needs to pay 170 to get a heavy or special weapon. Don't tell me that's "cheap" for what it does.


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## gabool (Apr 3, 2008)

SM arnt that overpowered IMO, I have played them and fought them for years. It all depends on the army your using and the tactics. just out of curiosity what army does your friend use?


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

i've been able to decimate SM squads with G.launchers only, so definitely not overpowered, as people have said its the points cost that hamper them, 300pts for a troop choice (no upgrades) which is 20 models. I.G a troop choice is 55 models or 345pts so for only 45pts more the guard get nearly 3 times the models which have only 1 stat point lower per stat. now then 55 guardsmen will mess up 20 SM very quickly, the majority of my kills against SM are by lasguns, so its possible for arouns 110 lasguns shots against 20 marines, sheer numbers will kill the unit.


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## Trandoshanjake (Jul 22, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> i've been able to decimate SM squads with G.launchers only, so definitely not overpowered, as people have said its the points cost that hamper them, 300pts for a troop choice (no upgrades) which is 20 models. I.G a troop choice is 55 models or 345pts so for only 45pts more the guard get nearly 3 times the models which have only 1 stat point lower per stat. now then 55 guardsmen will mess up 20 SM very quickly, the majority of my kills against SM are by lasguns, so its possible for arouns 110 lasguns shots against 20 marines, sheer numbers will kill the unit.



Look at the inverse though, at that range you would have 40 bolter rounds zipping towards your cardboard-armored guardsmen :biggrin:

But seriously, SM are overpriced, and lack all the goodies that come with their closest mirror (Princes, Cult Troops, Oblits)


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## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

wow surprised at the amount of replies there but i would say that they are balanced in ways and unbalanced in others:hq:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> i've been able to decimate SM squads with G.launchers only, so definitely not overpowered, as people have said its the points cost that hamper them, 300pts for a troop choice (no upgrades) which is 20 models. I.G a troop choice is 55 models or 345pts so for only 45pts more the guard get nearly 3 times the models which have only 1 stat point lower per stat. now then 55 guardsmen will mess up 20 SM very quickly, the majority of my kills against SM are by lasguns, so its possible for arouns 110 lasguns shots against 20 marines, sheer numbers will kill the unit.


If for some reason Marines decided to stand within 12 inches 55 IG and not charge into combat after the 1 round of 'shoot the walking tin can' then yeah the IG would win after 3 or 4 turns but the SM would kill more than 20 IG in that time.


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

Haha, this is a very big topic we're discussing here. First of all, im on your side -thumbs up- he has not got the right to say that your space marine army or in general, space marines are unbalanced. Every army in the 40k universe is designed to carry enough variety of troop types to inspire many different kind of fighting strategies. Space marines have armor bonuses and therefor we can take advantage of that, eldar are speedy and so are the tau! take advantage of that. Necron come in numbers and necron lords wield ressurection orbs, revive! take advantage of that. What i'm saying is, whatever you opponents army is, find a suitable way to organize your army so that you will be able or would increase your chances of winning against him. So next time, ask your friend to reorganise his army before playing with you again


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

You know, I find this funny. I was always under the impression that the reason the SM always a new codex every edition was that they were the primary list used to test the new edition. Because of that opinion, I would argue that they are the MOST balanced army list. Everything else would be based off of them.

As for how they compare to all the other armies, I would say it again is based on strategy and army makeup. I would say they are perhaps one of the most flexible armies with very rugged units. However, they have their weaknesses.

If you want a perfectly balanced wargame, I suggest chess. :laugh:


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Nah man, knights are OTT.


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## hells_fury (Apr 17, 2008)

SM arent OP as far as i can tell, sur ive never won out of 7 games against them but thats cause the little buggers have so much anti tank weaponry  as for the units bieng op ive had my living saint rip through squads off space marines with ease in cc


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

With the right tactics, a bit of luck and a solid list they can win but its very tough. The problem is SM are to expensive in points and as they are jack of all trades they are sadly master of none. However, I have found a tactic that works 90% of the time. Just get three Land Raider's, Sergeant Chronus and three TechMarines to keep them in shape and boom! Your opponent just won't be able to deal with it.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Marines are very balanced. If you know what you are going to face you can design an army to take on either horde or MEQ, which will likly be very effective, but not unbeatable. The biggest problem for marine players is designing Tournament lists.

It can be more difficult with SM lists to get enough of both anti infantry or anti-tank/anti-meq weapons to pull off enough wins. Saying that I think it will only be a matter of time before the marin list builders out there get to grips come up with some bizarre combo that will actually work, but the fluff gamers will groan at. Thats always the way in 40k :grin:


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

just to divert abit normal chaos marines are worse is god sense, by being cheaper and having better LD and a boltpistol and cc weapon, sure they dont have the no fear thing but hey ill take +1 attack over most things.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I've always considered Space Marines to be the standard against all else in the game is measured, for better or worse. Clearly, that's the standard that Games Workshop tries to pursue, judging by the other codecies that are released immediately prior to, and immediately following, Codex: Space Marines. If the Emperor's Astartes are the standard by which all else is measured, it's awfully hard to see how they can be either overpowered or underpowered-- they're the true neutral on the scales, I suppose.


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

I agree with SoH marines are far from being over powered, it's really SM players lost things that made there codex powerful, i saw one yound kid today playing SM at my local GW and when he lost his game he said next time ill take this not that, really all SM players have to do is work there lists to be perfect.


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## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

yeah but really i suppose its what u think yourself because nobody's ever going to agree with anything because everyone has there own ideas. but wow im glad i raised the question looks like a lot of people really were wondering themselves


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

They have good hqs. Bad everything else(except sternguard, and drop-pod ironclads, surprisingly)


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## MasterKnives (Jan 21, 2009)

Space Marines are quite good, but are in no way over/underpowered. They have surprisingly bad units this time around (in terms of cost effectiveness), but they ended up with some amazing units in their stead.

League play may see SMs get hurt as it is quite hard for the average player to build a list that can handle both mech armies and swarms.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> They have good hqs. Bad everything else(except sternguard, and drop-pod ironclads, surprisingly)


I love my drop pod Ironclad! I just need sort out a model of one now.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

No they're not overpowered at all. Like I've always said, get enough lasguns firing and your opponent is bound to roll some 1s and 2s. Like everyone's been saying, they're expensive for what they do and are seriously gimped against horde armies, namely Orks.

All that means is that people that are good with them can, in this days, rightly be considered "good," as opposed to the whiny 10 year old that used to play Space Marines.


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## gabool (Apr 3, 2008)

yea they arnt overpowered but some of the units are definitely under powered. they made scouts so much worse than they were. points jumped up and BS and WS went down. i dont understand why they should have the same BS and WS as guardsmen.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's very difficult to make any kind of objective judgement of whether armies are overpowered. Some things though:

Are many people complaining about any of their specific units? (see lash of submission, nobz bikers). Sometimes just one unit that is too good can tip an army into being unbalanced.

Are many people switching to play them who didn't before? (see old iron warriors and ulthwe, current orks). Lots of people like the easy life.

How have they been doing in tournaments? That's a good way to see the lists being tested to their limits.

In the case of marines I think the answers to those questions would be no, no and *very badly*. The marine performance at GTs around the world this year has been very significantly below average. That leads me to conclude that marines are indeed unbalanced, and are less good than they should be.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Someguy said:


> It's very difficult to make any kind of objective judgement of whether armies are overpowered. Some things though:
> 
> Are many people complaining about any of their specific units? (see lash of submission, nobz bikers). Sometimes just one unit that is too good can tip an army into being unbalanced.
> 
> ...


I am always very hesitant about using GT as a guide to what is and is not balanced. The rules of the GT itself are what determines what is over or under powered far more than what's in the codicies. Under the old GT rules, you could win every game as an Ork player and still not break the top 15. It wasn't because Orks were under powered, it was because of how the rules for the GT gave more credit for losing less, so it made no difference if you won. The poor showing of Orks at practically every GT in no way stopped me from stomping all oposition into the ground during regular play. (Not meant to be a self endorsement, just an illustration.)

Also, the effctiveness of an army is moderated by the over all rules structure. Even if the orks had not gotten a new codex, they would still be much more powerful now than they were in third or fourth addition simply because of how cover and wounding has changed in fifth. Fifth edition as a whole simply lends itself to horde armies where as third and fourth lended themselves to elite or mech heavy lists. Nobz bikers are as nothing compared to the number of 4+ cover saves the whole rest of my army now gets or how hard it is to kill my battlewagons.


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

Space marines are not underpowered at all. It is about getting the right combination of heavy and special weapons. I suck frankly, so I don't try. But with sufficient funds and the proper list, you can beat anyone with space marines. They aren't overpowered either, cause they are too slow and too few to deal with crisis suits and the like.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

gabool said:


> yea they arnt overpowered but some of the units are definitely under powered. they made scouts so much worse than they were. points jumped up and BS and WS went down. i dont understand why they should have the same BS and WS as guardsmen.


Sorry but when you can get snipers for FREE for each scout and in that case BS wont matter anymore (hit on 2+ and wound on 4+). Plus the fact that scouts really dont need to be in CC so WS isnt a must. If anything they got cheaper for what they can do. 

Anyway, they are not overpowered at all and not underpowered. They are "balanced" in the sense that they dont have too many units that overpower because so many more arent worth taking, EVER. SM are too versatile for their own good in tournaments. Not saying that SM will terribly fail all the time in tournaments, but recent rankings (from what i have heard) have still shown that they dont succeed as well as other armies. 

They can handle some of horde and some of shooty. Kit SM out to deal with all shooty and they will get dysected by horde. Kit SM out to deal with horde and powerful shooty will tear holes in them never thought possible. Kit them out to deal with a little of both and only time will tell before an army too overpowering in either category will defeat SM. Again, they are too versatile for their own good.


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## Godstud (Jan 22, 2009)

SM unbalanced? I've been fighting all sorts of armies and if anything things are more balanced than ever. 

Learning to deal with changes from 4th ed to 5th ed seem to be the biggest problem most people have. If your tactics haven't changed from 4th ed then you're gonna have problems, as I've been seeing as of late. Sure there are some kickass character models, but every army has those and you pay for them.

I did notice chaplains took a real hit and are a shadow of what they used to be, although still useful.
_

Sniper BS is *3* so they hit on a *4+*(not a 2+, you need BS 5 for that) and wound on a 4+ & rend on a wound roll of 6. They're good but not devastating.

Versatility is a SM strength, not a weakness.

Adapt and you will overcome._


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

DarKKKKK said:


> Sorry but when you can get snipers for FREE for each scout and in that case BS wont matter anymore (hit on 2+ and wound on 4+). Plus the fact that scouts really dont need to be in CC so WS isnt a must. If anything they got cheaper for what they can do.


Except for the fact that Sniper Weapons no longer hit on a 2+, they use the firers BS (so with Scouts they hit on a 4+).


EDIT: damn rookie mistake, didn't read the entire of Godstud's post


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except for the fact that Sniper Weapons no longer hit on a 2+, they use the firers BS (so with Scouts they hit on a 4+).
> 
> 
> EDIT: damn rookie mistake, didn't read the entire of Godstud's post


Ahhhh, I hate my friends :ireful2:
They are still so stuck in the 4th ed its not even funny.


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## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

wow people are still commenting on this i started the thread ages ago


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I wouldn't call 5 days ages...


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## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

i do lol actually i forgot when i started this


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## DarknessWithin (Jan 4, 2009)

I dunno, i've only played them once but i was able to kill them from range, (thanks ruins for slowing them down!). It sucks how they have so many options for the people and how cheap they are but most armies can kill them easily, (Thanks WBB).
Im so annoyed that they keep coming out with new marines, MAKE SOME MORE FRICKING NECRONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DarknessWithin


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

Compared to the newest chaos codex space marines got everything + more for the about the same points of chaos. I think they may be a bit more balanced now, but they also came out like most other armies for once. In the way that they have good units and units no one that wants to win will ever take. The only thing is that their good units are very very good for the points ie sternguard.


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## Marshal Balian (Apr 25, 2008)

Wow 5 days old....... 

Still going to comment. I believe them to be a well balanced army. As for the GT tour I can not answer for that because I do not play GT. But I can feel the pains as it is hard to build an all around army for tournament play. But what would be fun about the game if you won all the time with the same army list?


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## Savagechimpmunk (Jan 28, 2009)

All army's have their strengths and weakness, you just have to know how to use and exploit them.


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

^^ word i agree with u


Marshal Balian said:


> Wow 5 days old.......
> 
> Still going to comment. I believe them to be a well balanced army. As for the GT tour I can not answer for that because I do not play GT. But I can feel the pains as it is hard to build an all around army for tournament play. But what would be fun about the game if you won all the time with the same army list?


i only strive on making i list i can play every time and win. I used to make list to counter certain armies like... 4 years ago. im sorta a power gammer and i see tons of potential in cheesy space marines.


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## Fugital357 (Jan 19, 2009)

The Space Marines are a fairly destructive, if overly concentrated force. You can completely annihilate a unit or two, but only one or two a turn. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage.

Right now they aren't doing to hot. I think it has partly to do with the New Codex. Units were changes, special rules were changed, and things are, well, different. A lot of existing players are having to re-think their tactics due to this.


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

im just about to play space marines (crimson fist) and i have never played a power armor army for the whole time ive been playing (since third edition). So i think i will play them very unorthadox so i dont thing i will strugle making them good. the 3+ save is gonna be a whole new world to me. i think i may end up being more rash and brazen then i should. All i have to say with the ability to split up 10 man squads and free heavy weapons concentrating/spliting and diverting fire will make my army a nightmare. not to mention the fact that i will have double the units to capture objectives. the only downside is that i may end up giving more kill points to my openet if i get highly unlucky.


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## lord Sanguinius (Jan 13, 2009)

i wonder how many more times people will post on this because its been going over a week this thread is the longest any of mine have stayed popular lol:mrgreen:


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

oh sorry i dont know life expectancies of threads around here... im new lol just thought i would comment. dont wanna keep bumping it if its been beatin into the ground


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

honestly, you can keep threads going for ages, new people pick them up way after their creation.

IMO SM are reasonably balanced, although people will have to adjust to the new style of play and the new style of lists that fit said style the best. The ability to take such a wide range of weaponry in just your troops means it is possible to make your list able to take on both mech and horde (missile launcher comes to mind) but when you start using specialist units, things change. I believe it's just a matter of time until people crack marines and start developing balanced (and with it unbalanced) lists. the fact that the codex has been released with the new ed means, as I said before, that people have to adapt to a new style of play.


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

i know it can go for ages i just dont know how much you peps hate noobs bumpin old threads


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

we generally dont mind, normally because it's actually a useful thread and you find info you forgot. Just don't do it too much. I find just checking the "new posts" search thing lets me see whats happening and will provide a good couple of hours surfing as people keep posting new stuff.


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

yeah been using that and whoring it up:victory:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

It's pretty much how I roll.

Now, back on topic!


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

i'm in a 1250 league currently have 2 lascannon tact squads,
combat squad them in rhinos with flamers run them with chaplin and assualt sq 2x flamers and PF.
supported buy razorback hvy bolter from the dev squad which has 3xML 1xPC for 4+ or better. while venerable with assualt cannon and hvy flamer pods next to or behind best target tank or unit its very effective it hasn't died yet.
as rhinos and assualt are 1 turn behind it makes them panic

just played guard he kept front armour to las cannons so put 3 kraks on weak side armour blew it up then proceeded to blast his squads 4 templates is good against horde and tanks...
coupled with lascannons they think you shoot at it with las exposing to krak will its one turn your not shooting at infantry it gives you advantage 


sorry about rambling but marines are versatile and with right build can do damage.


i used to play the blood angels power armies in 3rd ed stopped playing just before 4th then started again when fifth came out been quite successful play raven guard and yes before shrike had fleet loved there fluff.
i love it in 1500 games i run atleast 2 assualt squads both normally hit 1st turn and are my game clubs resident ork horde killers 30 ard boys 10 marines chaplin easy pickings shrike does his bit two. 
i just wish i could have them as troops like blood angels who i think got screwed over big big time a shadow of themselves no wonder marines arn't in the top 5 anymore.


but its been said before its a new game and the combo will come again just need time..

finished now


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## brizanden (Jan 26, 2009)

holy shite run on much?


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