# Abaddon vs ?



## The_Reaper

So I was wondering with eldrad ulthran dead(presumably) and the primarchs gone Abaddon is probably one of the strongest individuals in the current 40k universe. My question is what character or individual you guys think can best Abaddon single handedly in the current 40k universe(excluding C'tan) and
how would they in terms of their battle prowess?


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## Old Man78

I suppose Mr Calgar of the Ultramarines would be a contender, he defeated an eldar avatar in single combat and retook a starfort held by daemons so no slouch in the combat department. Lysander could be a contender as well, he was captured and tortured by his chapters arch enemies the iron warriors and managed to escape, both tough characters to go up against Abbadon


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## kwak76

Lord Driago from the Grey Knights. Why? He is made to fight deamons . Abaddon I think has some of the ruinous power I think and you need someone that can battle against chaos. 

Mephisto maybe another one in line along with Dante but I put my money on Mephisto only because he has psychic power.


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## hailene

Oldman78 said:


> I suppose Mr Calgar of the Ultramarines would be a contender, he defeated an eldar avatar in single combat and retook a starfort held by daemons so no slouch in the combat department. Lysander could be a contender as well, he was captured and tortured by his chapters arch enemies the iron warriors and managed to escape, both tough characters to go up against Abbadon


Calgar had a couple dozen of his men shoot up the Avatar first.

Physical and mental toughness only go so far.

I personally don't think either of those two could hold a candle to Abby. He's a Space Marine with thousands of years of experience. He had the best war record of the Lunar Wolves (of whom had the best war record of all the Legions). He has a Primarch weapon on top of an incredibly powerful daemonic weapon. To top it off he's empowered with the gifts of all four Chaos gods.



kwak76 said:


> Lord Driago from the Grey Knights. Why? He is made to fight deamons . Abaddon I think has some of the ruinous power I think and you need someone that can battle against chaos.


If anyone could do it, it would be a GK.


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## Orochi

Asdrubael Vect would be a contender.

Don't forget Mr. Thraka either.


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## hailene

Orochi said:


> Asdrubael Vect would be a contender.
> 
> Don't forget Mr. Thraka either.


Vect doesn't seem (or bother) to fight much. The DE codex mentions he never bothers to dirty his own blade and prefers others to do the work for him.

Though with a tricky character like Vect, the author could make up whatever fanciful setups to make the fight interesting. In a straight up fight there'd be no chance.

I don't think Thraka would fare well either. Yarrick, according to the Ork codex, was able to give him a "dramatic battle". 

An unsegmented human like Yarrick would be hardpressed to give a regular Space Marine a dramatic battle. Much less Abby.


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## Chompy Bits

hailene said:


> I don't think Thraka would fare well either. Yarrick, according to the Ork codex, was able to give him a "dramatic battle".
> 
> An unsegmented human like Yarrick would be hardpressed to give a regular Space Marine a dramatic battle. Much less Abby.


Dramatic battle doesn't necessarily mean he did well. Plus, I've always considered the Yarrick fluff to be pure Guard Wank. Realistically, an aging, unaugmented commissar should have gotten flattened within seconds of the first time he encountered Ghazghkull. And Ghazghkull did still kick his ass in anyways. Plus there's descriptions in the Ork codex of Thraka steamrolling through entire regiments. I mean, Belial, the current master of the Deathwing, nearly got ripped in half when he tried to take him on. 

And then there's also the argument that Ghazghkull doesn't actually want Yarrick permanently incapacitated because he's the only human who's managed to give him any real resistance when he decides to invade a place.

So, to close, I really think you are underestimating Ghazghkull. IMO he really is one of the few 40k characters who might be able to give Abaddon a decent run for his money. Though I still think Abaddon would probably win in the end.


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## spanner94ezekiel

His own Daemon weapon.


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## seermaster

if game wise then swarmlord 
flufwise pheonix lords would give him a run for his mony


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## TheGoblin

The only one's that come to mind for me are other Chaos forces. Daemon Primarchs, Greater Daemons etc. although obviously they wouldn't be fighting Abaddon. 
For other armies? I would say Vect could with a LOT of planning, trickery and diversion. Definitely not in hand to hand. Drazhar could probably make him sweat a little. Others above have mentioned others, Ghazgkull and Calgar might just, although I doubt it. I reckon Abaddon could pretty much take on anyone and win, the blessing of the Gods is not be taken lightly.


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## TheOnlySaneObliterator

Abbadon (not frakking _Abby_) is Warmaster of Chaos, Chosen of Chaos Undivided, a master warrior, tactician, and leader, and on top of it all he is, as our beloved Commissar Ciaphas Cain called him, a ten-thousand year old madman who's been marinating himself in the raw stuff of Chaos for most of that time.

We don't need a Champion or another leader to fight him, practically every single living warrior would be torn to ribbons by the Talon of Horus and effortlessly beheaded by the Daemon Sword Drach'nayen.

We don't need a warrior.

We need a frakking miracle.

Such as, but not limited to, *ahem* this is gonna be a doozy...


Random Warp-rift in the middle of the fight, either tearing Abbadon's very being it innumerable pieces, or bringing in a lost/previously dead Loyalist primarch to go,"You, sir, are a wanker.", and engage him in mortal combat.

The Emperor in his fully-healed glory being Abbadon's opponent, and him going,"Sorry, Empire to un-frak, gotta make this quick.", and commencing with the mind-bullets.

The Chaos Gods suddenly going, "We want to see how you fare without all this extra shit we gave you.", and stripping away his blessings.

In short, without some kind of playing-field leveler or Deus-ex Machina (where a God or some ultra powerful being breaks in and saves the day), anyone going against Abbadon in mortal combat, is frakked. Well, and truly, frakked.


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## SonOfStan

I would imagine Draigo would be the only Human that would really stand a chance...as he certainly seems to be the most capable Human warrior in existence that isn't sitting on a Golden Throne. And, of course, the whole 'carving initials into the heart of a Primarch' thing.


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## scscofield

The thing is if he was this amazing bad ass he would have succeeded at his crusades.....


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## Old Man78

Okay then, my missus after a bad day at work coming home to find I've not done some non essential task, would kick his ass!!!


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## Zetronus

+1 to scscofield on this one

Abby, is a 10,000 year old looser whom has managed to loose atleast 10,000 times!

at that rate, a half-blind dwarf with a demonette std could take abby.... just by showing him pictures of his list of utter failures.... Hey in fact why do the chaos gods put up with it? being a chaos god I would be pretty pissed if it had taken my underling 10,000 years to just fail as hard as he has.....


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## Creator of Chaos

What in 40k Can take on Abbadon. Just let a Necron Lord or Overlord with a Tesserect labyrinth get close enough to him and bam he's Gone no more abbadon. Then we have Mind Shackle Scarabs to make him attack himself, Re-animation and a Warscythe so it would be 1 hell of a fight assuming he got throw the first 2 tricks alive. 

Ctan Shattered or not would probably do the Trick as well. But if where talking Characters Then your limited to Draigo, Ghazskull, Mephiston and Maybe Orikan when he's Empowered. I cant think of anything else that could take him on in single combat Aside from what I've already mentioned. 

Now if I had an army behind me then its a different Story.


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## seermaster

you forgot the swarmlord sanguinor possibly logan grimnar and maybe bjorn oh and grey night brotherhood champion and casalan crowe oh and maugen ra he would just run away and shoot him


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## Archaon18

Remember he is theoretically AP3 in CC so a humble terminator could eventually punch the snot out of him.
On a completely in-related note I am so glad to see TheOnlySaneObliterator again, it is humbling to see you have retained your classic insanity!


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## Archaon18

spanner94ezekiel said:


> His own Daemon weapon.


 The way he rolls for me, yes. The only issue with this is what _person_, nt Daemon bound in an ageless sword that has taken many lives over the course of millennia and is one of the reasons we are having this argument


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## Harriticus

Most of the "big warlords" from the other armies could be contenders probably. Calgar, Vect, Ghazghkull, Swarmlord, and so on.


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## PlagueMarineXenon

As far as characters go, any of the biggies I feel. Dante, Mephiston, Ghazghkull, Swarmlord, etc. 

The best shot? His daemon weapon rebelling against him.


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## darkreever

Zetronus said:


> Abby, is a 10,000 year old looser whom has managed to loose atleast 10,000 times!
> 
> at that rate, a half-blind dwarf with a demonette std could take abby.... just by showing him pictures of his list of utter failures.... Hey in fact why do the chaos gods put up with it? being a chaos god I would be pretty pissed if it had taken my underling 10,000 years to just fail as hard as he has.....


Except he has not failed time and again as so many people like to claim.

Time and again he has actually succeeded in doing exactly what he has set out to do. Like in his first Black Crusade, where the whole point was for him to sow destruction and discourd in the area surrounding the eye and to obtain his daemon weapon. Seeing as he did just that, kind of a success.

And lets not forget some of his later Black Crusades, like the one in which the whole point was to simply get fleets of chaos warships out of the Cadian Gate and into regular space so that they could run amock. He most certainly did that one; he also nearly wiped out the Blood Angels on at least one crusade.

Don't forget the Gothic War, where his goal was to obtain the blackstone fortresses. Yeah he didn't get all six, but he did leave with two or three. And two of those were more than enough to destroy a planet (and three enough to destabilize a star so that it went supernova.)

Lets not forget the hundreds of Imperial worlds he has layed asunder; or the fact that he is still the only champion of chaos who has been able to unite the nine legions time and again.


If you measure his success by how many times the Despoiler has breached the defenses of Terra and caste the Emperor from the golden throne then he has never once done that. But his goals are rarely ever that one, and he he almost always accomplishes his goals.


Ten thousand years of being a loser my ass; there is a reason he is the single most feared champion of chaos.


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## scscofield

My response was geared towards the comments of him taking titans on and surviving starships ramming him among other over the top things. If he was that bad ass, any force he was leading would be unstoppable.


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## Gret79

In game terms - 
To quote Aramoro's eldar tactics

'Karandras
He still gets 7 Power Claw attacks on the charge and the power weapon change makes him hardier than before. A fun character to challenge with as you get some free swings before he tears your face off.'

My next thought was a Wolf Lord with a th/ss and sotb.

Either of these would now beat adaddon.

Fluff wise - I think Abaddon's plot armour is too strong... so no-one beats him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Abaddon is probably the most feared individual throughout the Imperium, there is next to no one who could stand against him and endure. Though, as others have said, a particularly powerful Grey Knight (such as Draigo) would probably stand the greatest chance.



Archaon18 said:


> Remember he is theoretically AP3 in CC so a humble terminator could eventually punch the snot out of him.


I don't play TT, so feel free to put me back in my place here, but don't daemon weapons (including Drach'nyen) count as power weapons, therefore Abaddon ignores armour saves in combat?


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## Gret79

Not anymore - in 6th they count as AP3. So anything with 2+ will get saves as normal. Really de-powers Abaddon against terminators.


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## SonofMalice

Hypothetically wouldn't Lucius win? I mean I know in one on one he'd be ripped apart like tissue paper but in the fluff those that win and feel even a moment of satisfaction get morphed into him. A long shot to be sure but also fun to consider.

I would think that the more powerful necron characters would have the greatest chance of besting him though.


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## Gret79

Abaddon has more god's backing him than Lucius (including Slaanesh). I also think Slaanesh would have to be a bit more inventive than normal to get Lucius back afer Abaddon got through with him...


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## SonofMalice

Gret79 said:


> Abaddon has more god's backing him than Lucius (including Slaanesh). I also think Slaanesh would have to be a bit more inventive than normal to get Lucius back afer Abaddon got through with him...


True, as I said long shot but funny to consider. 

Isn't Constantin Valdor supposed to still be alive as well? That would make for an interesting battle though again I fear Abaddon would prevail.


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## Gret79

Yeah - its a funny thought :biggrin: Imagine Abaddon noticing Lucius's armour coming through his own. He's the only person I could think of who could go put in a complaint at slaanesh's head office...

What about plot armoured characters?
Dante, Mephiston, Logan Grimnar? in a 1 on 1 plot off?

This is where the phoenix lords fall over in fluff against him - they're functionally immortal, but could get killed in every book and it wouldn't make a scrap of difference...


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## SonofMalice

In a plot off? The Sanguinor springs to mind since as far as I know he has never lost. Dante has that whole prophecy thing going for him so that might work. As others have said Draigo seems just as unbeatable (and admirably suited to the task). Personally I would find it funny if Lorgar stopped meditating and claimed leadership of the "Long War" and abaddon had to fight him. Pretty equal in terms of godly support so I think Lorgar might have the edge there


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## seermaster

in game 4 pheonix lords karandras jain zar margen ra and fuegan would woop him the other 2 would tie him up for the game 
for gks crowe and brotherhood champions mordrack the inquisiter with a hammer librarians grand masters and brother captins with hamers would win aswell 
nids swarmlord tyrant with armoured shell lash wip 3 boneswords 
orks gazgull
basicaly guys with 2 up who ignore saves


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

SonofMalice said:


> Hypothetically wouldn't Lucius win?


If you're interested, there are numerous interesting (I use that term loosely), yet very long threads on such things. This was the most prominent one I believe.


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## Apostle

IMO Abaddon would lose to a unit of grey knights +Draigo (though we are talking 1 on ones) they defeated Angron for fraks sake. I am sorry but he is just NOT stronger than a fulll on Demon Prince +being a Primarch.

If we are doing 1 on 1....that is very difficult Ghaz Thraka (not gonna spell the entire name sorry) or possibly Ahriman (even though he is not the chosen one of all four in the pantheon). I do definately think that Lysander could do some serious one on one damage as well.


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## Apostle

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If you're interested, there are numerous interesting (I use that term loosely), yet very long threads on such things. This was the most prominent one I believe.


Yea it goes pretty in depth there. However if Slaneesh can just bring whoever the hell she/he wants back. Why doesnt she just go ahead and resurrect all of the lost Emperor's Children who had fallen to her worship before they died? Then it wouldnt be such a depleted fighting force.


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## SonofMalice

Wow....people put a lot of thought into this....


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## spanner94ezekiel

Apostle said:


> Yea it goes pretty in depth there. However if Slaneesh can just bring whoever the hell she/he wants back. Why doesnt she just go ahead and resurrect all of the lost Emperor's Children who had fallen to her worship before they died? Then it wouldnt be such a depleted fighting force.


because the chaos gods care tits all about the mortal realm.


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## Apostle

spanner94ezekiel said:


> because the chaos gods care tits all about the mortal realm.


That is probably the most solid answer I could get from that hahah:clapping:


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## seermaster

game wise draigo and abadon would fight for more than 6 turns because there both only ap3


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## dragonkingofthestars

imperal auto servent SU-4912 

you know,, the one that pushed the button to start a extermnatus.

or you, a ton of imperal assassains.


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## TheGoblin

It would take a whole god-damn lot of Imperial Assassins to even get close to Abbadon. Do you not think the Imperium would try and use assassins against Abbadon if it was that easy? Not only would they probably be unable to kill him anyway, but the Gods would give him fair warning before they even got close.


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## Rems

Apostle said:


> IMO Abaddon would lose to a unit of grey knights +Draigo (though we are talking 1 on ones) they defeated Angron for fraks sake. I am sorry but he is just NOT stronger than a fulll on Demon Prince +being a Primarch.


It's arguable that the Primarchs became weaker, or rather less effective, upon their ascension to daemonhood though. As daemons they are bound by the same restrictions all daemons face; limited time in the materium, the need for a warp source, a general detachment and disinterest in the affairs of mortals. They are also now more vulnerable to the psychic and faith based abilities of the Grey Knights, who are designed, trained and equipped to fight daemons as effectively as possible. 

Abaddon by contrast suffers no such limitations, but only advantages from his Chaos blessings. At the time of the Great Crusade he was one of the deadliest Space Marines. He's now had an additional 10,000 years experience, the blessings of Gods and powerful weapons. What's more if he ever is in any true danger the God's can simply spirit him away, it's happened before. 



dragonkingofthestars said:


> imperal auto servent SU-4912
> 
> you know,, the one that pushed the button to start a extermnatus.
> 
> or you, a ton of imperal assassains.


Assassinorum Kill Teams have tried before, they've all failed.


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## darkreever

Apostle said:


> IMO Abaddon would lose to a unit of grey knights +Draigo (though we are talking 1 on ones) they defeated Angron for fraks sake. I am sorry but he is just NOT stronger than a fulll on Demon Prince +being a Primarch.


Yes, a unit of Grey Knights did indeed take down Angron. A unit consisting of over one hundred veteran Grey Knight terminators who nearly perished to a man in order to simply banish the daemon-primarch.

A unit of Grey Knights numbering that many could likely take down the Despoiler all by his lonesome, probably with his champions. However seeing as the OP asked which individuals could take him, I think a group fighting him misses the point.


Seermaster, while what you say is most likely true, I get the distinct impression that we are only really looking at this from a fluff perspective rather than a table-top one.


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## Deadeye776

Um, Angron had a body guard of a dozen bloodthirsters with him. I'd hardly say that counts as his lonesome. Also the Skulltaker was present as his tally inlcludes felling a quarter of the GK at Armageddon. Let's not present the GK's as swarming a target like locust. They deploy in those numbers because it's always FUBAR where they end up. What do you think would happen to any army unit in 40k, if they teleported in the middle of a battlefeild with Angron, 12 bloodthirsters, and the Skulltaker? Take a minute to think about that and please feel free to bring any imperial unit in. 

The only SM's I would even throw in Abbaddon's path would be chapter masters. I believe most would be slaughtered. The only ones that I believe would survive would be Logan Grimnar, Dante, and maybe Azrael (most likely would be murked viciously).The Librians would be Mephiston or Tigurius but as hard as it is to believe because of their senior positions and fatherly roles, these are the equivalent of children to Abbaddon. He walked and fought with most of their primarchs 10k years ago. They weren't even wet dreams yet when Abbaddon was considered the best if not the best warrior in the Astartes. That's before he ascended. In truth who would I send? I'll draw from all factions:

The Sanguinor
The Swarmlord
Eldar Avatar (It's the best they can do)
Kaldor Draigo
Hector Rex
Ephrael Stern
Obviously returned loyalist Primarchs
The NightBringer shard
The Void Dragon shard
Any C'tan shard


In truth how would I kill Abbaddon if I was an Inquisitor? Lure him to a planet with the promise of some secret Imperial weapon that might pose a threat to him and also if stolen give him a needed edge. Once I was sure he'd made planet fall I would destroy the planet. I know their's a huge leap in tactics there. While Abbaddon has failed tacticly his prowess as a warrior has only grown. I believe only Sigismund and and another marine from the White Scars were considered his equal. That's when he was just a Space Marine.


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## The_Reaper

Interesting responses, I do not think Abaddon is godlike like some people have stated. If he was he probably would have wiped out cadia by himself. But he is indeed one of the strongest individuals,theres no doubt about that but he is not impervious. We have seen him wounded by eldrad and whisked away before the killing blow had been dealt. Personally I would put his strength level clearly above most chapter masters and below greater daemons such as An'ggrath and only probably a few characters would put up a real fight such as Phoniex lords, swarmlord, etc as people have stated. As for abaddon's 10k experience, time in the warp is different than reality and hinted it is shorter(correct me if I am wrong).


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## redmapa

time is meaningless in the warp, for all we know Abaddon could've spent a million years in the warp while in the real space only 10k years passed, time is at the whim of the gods if they so desire..

Abaddon is on chapter master level, besting the best of them but could be taken out by the likes of Dante or Logan in a 1v1 although the idea that fighting abaddon is 1v1 is silly because in 'reality' its actually a 1v1+4 gods so Abaddon has plot armor so thick its not even funny


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## Deadeye776

I put the chapter masters in their as a respectabe thing. To be honest, everyone who read the first couple of heresy books will vouch that there were maybe 4 other Sm's who would be able to kill Ezekiel. EVen Loken in his prime couldn't take him. I'd forgotten the battle with Eldrad who I think would have given a primarch a run for his money. Thankfully for Chaos, Slaanesh took care of that. Who's left for the Imperium?From the Inquisition I'd say Hector Rex, he took out Angraath personally. That's gotta earn him a shot. From the Grey Knights obviously Kaldor Draigo. He mutilated a daemon Primarch. That's gotta earn him a shot. From the Space marine legions? The Sanguinor. In truth I think Abbaddon will murder every and all chapter masters with Logan Grimnar and Dante coming the closest. Beyond that it would would say for sure that the Swarmlord or the C'tan Shards would be able to destroy him in one on one combat for sure.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

Deadeye776 said:


> EVen Loken in his prime couldn't take him.


When Loken fought Abbadon he was not at his best or in his prime. If Abbadon was to ever face Cerberus he would get smeared.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> Um, Angron had a body guard of a dozen bloodthirsters with him. I'd hardly say that counts as his lonesome. Also the Skulltaker was present as his tally inlcludes felling a quarter of the GK at Armageddon. Let's not present the GK's as swarming a target like locust. They deploy in those numbers because it's always FUBAR where they end up. What do you think would happen to any army unit in 40k, if they teleported in the middle of a battlefeild with Angron, 12 bloodthirsters, and the Skulltaker? Take a minute to think about that and please feel free to bring any imperial unit in.


I havn't read _The Emperor's Gift_ yet, so am unaware how that presents the First War for Armageddon, but I would just like to point out that Angron's datasheet states "a bodyguard of between 2 and 12 Bloodthirsters", not simply 12. Also, rules only very rarely translate into the lore smoothly, just because you are forced to take Bloodthirsters alongside Angron on the tabletop, doesn't mean Angron literally had a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters in the lore.

Also, just because Skulltaker was present on Armageddon doesn't mean he was anywhere near Angron.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> If Abbadon was to ever face Cerberus he would get smeared.


How did you arrive at that conclusion?


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## Apostle

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I havn't read _The Emperor's Gift_ yet, so am unaware how that presents the First War for Armageddon, but I would just like to point out that Angron's datasheet states "a bodyguard of between 2 and 12 Bloodthirsters", not simply 12. Also, rules only very rarely translate into the lore smoothly, just because you are forced to take Bloodthirsters alongside Angron on the tabletop, doesn't mean Angron literally had a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters in the lore.
> 
> Also, just because Skulltaker was present on Armageddon doesn't mean he was anywhere near Angron.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you arrive at that conclusion?


For sure read the Emperor's gift. It's very well done and im not sure of the exact number but it was certainly more than 2 bloodthirsters.


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## MidnightSun

For those saying that Exterminatus would work, it hasn't a chance in hell. Planet Killer can take on any Inquisitorial ship with Exterminatus capabilites, and Abaddon tends to take PK with him when he's going out of the Eye.

Midnight


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## Lord Lorne Walkier

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How did you arrive at that conclusion?


The Duel between Abaddon and Loken, was not a "fair" fight, yet Gavi still almost won. Ezekyle had a number of advantages. Terminator amour + power fist verses chain sword and mark IV plate. Loken had fought every day for some 6 ish months, while the 1st captain was fresh. That means the condition of Loken's war-gear had to be poor and he must have taken numerous wounds. During the fight both warriors were saved from death, one by his terminator invulnerable, the other saved by divine intervention. Abaddon won the fight but to ignore his advantages would be wrong.

We know what happens to Abaddon. He becomes the Despoiler. Gets the favor of all four major chaos gods. Gets one of Horus' claws and a daemon weapon. Not bad upgrades.

We know Loken survives the 2nd orbital bombardment. He spends some 6 ish years kicking the crap out of a city full of Plaguebearer, by himself. I believe during this time he gets a couple new abilities. He becomes a berzerkers like has not been seen, even among the like of the World Eaters or Blood Angels. He also becomes the "undying", which to me says he is a "Eternal Warrior". I see him becoming one of the first eight Grey Knight Grandmasters. That means he looses the mark IV plate and chain sword and gets Terminator amour and a Nemesis Greatsword. Add on to that the psychic powers, knowledge and resources that go along with the job.

When the fight happens, Abaddon will be surprised and Loken will be ready. Loken will have been preparing for this fight for some 10k years, knowing and studding the exploits of the Despoiler. Abaddon wont know what hit him until its to late. The equipment level will be close enough to call even as is fighting skill, support, ect. The surprise factor plus "even playing field" says Loken win to me.

If this fight is to happen, i feel it would have to be in the "future", meaning later in the timeline then 6th Ed. Some day in like 5 years Abnett will write this book...


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## Rems

What makes you think Loken is still alive? 

Or that he becomes a Grey Knight, psychic powers are a pre-requisite, Loken doesn't have any. He does not become the undying, it's merely an appellation given to him, he's not suddenly invulnerable. 

Besides i just read the fight between Abaddon and Loken again and Loken had the stuffing beaten out of him. Abaddon was easily handling Loken until part of the building fell on him, an amount which would kill a power armoured astartes. Immobile from the wasit down he then still managed to push Loken off of him and break him. Only the chapel's collapse saved Loken's life. Abaddon had one that fight handily. Loken did not 'almost win'.


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## hailene

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I havn't read _The Emperor's Gift_ yet, so am unaware how that presents the First War for Armageddon, but I would just like to point out that Angron's datasheet states "a bodyguard of between 2 and 12 Bloodthirsters", not simply 12.


From _The Emperor's Gift_: "That day, we faced twelve. THe Cruor Praetoria, the twelve strongest; the twelve daemons whose lives and deeds most pleased their wretched Blood God over fourty thousand years of warfare."

Do keep in mind this does not include Angron in the count. So they fought 13 daemons in total.


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## kwak76

If I remember correctly the fight between Abaddon and Loken. Abaddon had a terminator suit on which gave him a clear advantage in strength compared to Loken.


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## Deadeye776

> Child-of-the-Emperor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I havn't read _The Emperor's Gift_ yet, so am unaware how that presents the First War for Armageddon, but I would just like to point out that Angron's datasheet states "a bodyguard of between 2 and 12 Bloodthirsters", not simply 12. Also, rules only very rarely translate into the lore smoothly, just because you are forced to take Bloodthirsters alongside Angron on the tabletop, doesn't mean Angron literally had a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters in the lore.
> 
> Also, just because Skulltaker was present on Armageddon doesn't mean he was anywhere near Angron.
> 
> 
> 
> They took on a daemon prince/primarch as well as multiple greater daemons and the Skulltaker. The fact that they took on all this and still had survivors in my opinion is something I can't see any other unit accomplishing. I'm more than sure that the Bloodthirsters would gun for GK as well would the Skulltaker.I'm more than certain that protecting Angron or not they would try and kill the Knights if they could. So it's irrelevant if they were his bodyguard or not. All that matters is that they were also present and an obstacle as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rems

I recall from the fluff in White Dwarf detailing the war that the Bloodthirsters did indeed form a bodyguard for Angron (and there were 12). The majority of the Grey knight company engaged them, with a small group gunning for Angron himself. In the end the Brother Captain banished Angron, dieing in the process. Angron's death also banished the remaining Bloodthirsters and assorted other daemonic hoards. In the end only a (literal) handful of Grey knights were left. 

Of course the Emperor's Gift may invalidate this, i haven't read it.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Rems said:


> I recall from the fluff in White Dwarf detailing the war that the Bloodthirsters did indeed form a bodyguard for Angron (and there were 12). The majority of the Grey knight company engaged them, with a small group gunning for Angron himself. In the end the Brother Captain banished Angron, dieing in the process. Angron's death also banished the remaining Bloodthirsters and assorted other daemonic hoards. In the end only a (literal) handful of Grey knights were left.
> 
> Of course the Emperor's Gift may invalidate this, i haven't read it.


I also remember this old fluff. I also believe it was written before Codex: Daemonhunters so this was in the day when 6 GK's practically made an army cause they were that hard.

I know from Codex:Chaos Daemons that Skulltaker kills "a quarter of the GK Brother Captains in the first armageddon war" however according to that fluff only 1 Brother Captain was there (Can't remember exact name I think it was Brother Captain Pelega or similar name).


----------



## Gret79

Stephen_Newman said:


> I know from Codex:Chaos Daemons that Skulltaker kills "a quarter of the GK Brother Captains in the first armageddon war" however according to that fluff only 1 Brother Captain was there (Can't remember exact name I think it was Brother Captain Pelega or similar name).


 
Does that count as he just hacked a leg off?:biggrin:


----------



## GiftofChaos1234

Apostle said:


> IMO Abaddon would lose to a unit of grey knights +Draigo (though we are talking 1 on ones) they defeated Angron for fraks sake. I am sorry but he is just NOT stronger than a fulll on Demon Prince +being a Primarch.


first. no, this did not happen. Draigo was NOT there, 2nd it was ONE HUNDRED grey knight terminators, not a uni. ONE HUNDRED, I also think its safe to say that a large number of those would have been paladins. and to quote the Space wolf dex "The only survivors to emerge from the dust of the legendary conflict were a *handful* (i take that to mean no more than half a dozen) of Grey Knights..."

As far as fighting Abaddon in a one on one? I'm thinking Arjac Rockfist (that said, his chances are pretty slim) or possibly a Senior ranking Custode, provided any of them are doing anything.


----------



## SoL Berzerker

I would say the Swarmlord. If fluff serves me correctly he had not been beaten in combat, and he almost killed Calgar in combat as well. Abbadons psychic might would be useless against the Swarmlord. My reason for saying this is that Abbadons psychic might would already be suppressed by the Hive Mind, and then the Swarmlord on his own is the most powerful Tyranid psyker, and that title goes a long way. And Abbadon has thousands of combat experience does he? Bahaha, that is a blink of an eye in Swarmlord time!


----------



## Serpion5

SoL Berzerker said:


> I would say the Swarmlord. If fluff serves me correctly he had not been beaten in combat, and he almost killed Calgar in combat as well. Abbadons psychic might would be useless against the Swarmlord. My reason for saying this is that Abbadons psychic might would already be suppressed by the Hive Mind, and then the Swarmlord on his own is the most powerful Tyranid psyker, and that title goes a long way. And Abbadon has thousands of combat experience does he? Bahaha, that is a blink of an eye in Swarmlord time!


Abaddon is not a psyker at all. :no: 

Also, the ten thousand years Imperial time is likely less for Abaddon if the info in the Night Lords trilogy is much to go by. 

So it would really come down to would Abaddon have the mental fortitude to resist the Swarmlord's psychic abilities? Would Drachn'yen be able to pierce the Swarmlord's defenses? Would the fight even take place to begin with?


----------



## Zetronus

To beat Abaddon all one has to do is offer him the possibility of uber-unlimited power ... and he will flip sides quicker than a Kroot with the promise of a sweet meat treat / beef jerky!

If she was really that tough he would cut swathes into the imperial lines / forces, there would be NO stopping him.... some-times I wonder if the black library like to perpetuate myths


----------



## Rems

He usually does cut a swathe through the enemy when's he personally present. He can however only be in one place at one time. Remember that wars can be fought across many planets or star systems, there's a limit to what one individual can do. Abaddon's a superlative and charismatic warrior, no doubt, i'm not sold on his strategic ability though.


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## The_Reaper

Rems said:


> He usually does cut a swathe through the enemy when's he personally present. He can however only be in one place at one time. Remember that wars can be fought across many planets or star systems, there's a limit to what one individual can do. Abaddon's a superlative and charismatic warrior, no doubt, i'm not sold on his strategic ability though.


I was just wondering, but which fluff states Abaddon cutting through a swathe of enemies? Because the only fluff I read about Abaddon battling in the current 40k was in the IA which states him fighting furiously along with berzerkers killing a group of blood angels.


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## Deadeye776

One on One alone I'd say that the C'tan shards would easily kill Abbaddon. The Swarmlord would be a better match. However, I feel that Abbaddon's "time" in combat may not necessarily be an advantage. Take into consideration we don't have any solid evidence on when the tyranids began and how long they've been devouring. So the Swarmlord could be a new character or older than recorded history


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## Lord Commander Solus

If being 10,000 years old is a _positive_ for highly-physical close combat, why doesn't the Imperial Guard let its recruits "cook" for another couple of generations? :laugh:

On a more serious note, I wonder if Trazyn the Infinite could take him down. There's only so many times you can kill the bugger, after all.


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## Deadeye776

Trayzn would be butchered like cattle if confronted with Abbaddon one on one.


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## Rems

Of course the C'tan shards could defeat Abaddon, they're beings of incredible power. They could likely defeat any individual from 40k. The op however ruled them out of the conversation for just those reasons.


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## hailene

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> first. no, this did not happen. Draigo was NOT there, 2nd it was ONE HUNDRED grey knight terminators, not a uni. ONE HUNDRED, I also think its safe to say that a large number of those would have been paladins.



I would not believe so. They dragged as many GKs as they could to the battlefield in what time they had. From _The Emperor's Gift_

"But the order is spread thin across the Imperium. what can we bring to Armageddon? Ninety knights? A hundred?"

Toreith's eyes never left mine. "We will form a ragged brotherhood from the squads still within the fortress-monastery and sail for Armageddon before the solar week is out."

There was no time to organize their best and finest.




GiftofChaos1234 said:


> "The only survivors to emerge from the dust of the legendary conflict were a *handful* (i take that to mean no more than half a dozen) of Grey Knights..."


To be specific 13 survived. Straight from the novel.


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## Lord Commander Solus

Deadeye776 said:


> Trayzn would be butchered like cattle if confronted with Abbaddon one on one.


Of course, but I meant could Trazyn win a war of attrition against him? You know, if he dies the fluff just lets him possess the next body easily. If he'd stocked up on bodies surely Abbaddon would eventually tire...?


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## Serpion5

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Of course, but I meant could Trazyn win a war of attrition against him? You know, if he dies the fluff just lets him possess the next body easily. If he'd stocked up on bodies surely Abbaddon would eventually tire...?


No. Considering Abaddon is a Chaos fueled astartes with massive grudge issues, I'd rate him over an eccentric necron lord.


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## Gret79

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Of course, but I meant could Trazyn win a war of attrition against him? You know, if he dies the fluff just lets him possess the next body easily. If he'd stocked up on bodies surely Abbaddon would eventually tire...?


 
It's a nice thought - everyone gets tired...:biggrin:

But that does mean Trazyn has turned up with an army...and I think most characters would beat abaddon if they had an army and he was on his own...


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## Deadeye776

He get's tired? Even before he was a chaos-roided out champion, he was a senior Astartes who'd fought for centuries in the crusade. Now with everything he's got going for him I don't think he "tires" too often. Would be great for a lot of people if he did. The case being that he's failed in 12 attempts to conquer the Imperium but keeps coming back. Persistent bastard if anything.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Rems said:


> What makes you think Loken is still alive?


 A couple of things hint that Loken is still alive. 
1 )In Horus Rising, pg 81, Loken joins the Mournival. The ceremony is a ritual that is conducted in the light of a reflected moon. As he approaches the ceremony and during it, Loken gets the feeling that there is something strange going on. As the names of the dead brothers are being voiced, Loken's minds drifts and i think he has a Prophetic vision. When he attempts to picture his own death he can't. Instead his minds focus on two near death moments and the death of Abaddon. One of these near deaths has been shown to come true, on Istvaan III. He is left for dead. The other two have yet to happen. Another things about the vision is that he is able to see a time 10k years into the future. I think this is no coincidence, and strong foreshadowing.

2 ) In False Gods Loken speaks with Mersadie Oliton. Once again Loken is pondering the long life span of the Astartes. Oliton says " I did not realise Astartes aged." Loken answers "I don't know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out".

I think Loken will answer this question with his own Immortal Life.. That is why this conversation made it into the book. 

3 ) In Garro: Legion of One, track 3, He says "I have been rejected by death itself. The peace of the grave will only be mine when the Scales are balanced...... The undying amongst the dead". He ponders trying to kill himself, again, but it is unable. Later in the story, track 9 Varren, watching how Loken fights, thinks that he has never, up until then seen a Astartes who fights with no thought for survival. Loken has moved past thoughts of his own death. When will the scales be balanced for Loken? Abaddon, Lil Horus, Lucius, Kharn, Erebus all must die for the scales to even out......

Loken and not dying is a recurring theme. If you look at them alone i can see why you might dismiss them as background noise. View them together and the dots begin to show a greater picture. 


Rems said:


> Or that he becomes a Grey Knight, psychic powers are a pre-requisite, Loken doesn't have any. He does not become the undying, it's merely an appellation given to him, he's not suddenly invulnerable.


Just like i have said above their are hints to Loken and psyker abilities. You can keep your eyes close to them. I think the authors want you to feel like you do. They are setting you up. You have been warned.


----------



## Danger Close

I believe that 40K's answer to chuck norris has not been mentioned so it seems it's up to me,
Colonel Iron hand Straken of the imperial guard
This guy's been patched up by medicaes so may times that he has super human strength even by space marine standards, if he charges into combat he has 5 str 7 attacks that are either ap2 or ap3 at iniative 4 due to Furious Charge. 

Don't have the new rulebook yet so don't know about the AP values yet


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## Sephyr

Serpion5 said:


> Also, the ten thousand years Imperial time is likely less for Abaddon if the info in the Night Lords trilogy is much to go by.


The lore in the Night Lords books suggests this goes both ways; some chaos warriors living in the Eye of Terror and the other warp anomalies experience far less time than the rest of the materium, while some experience MORE. Some chaos marines may have 15 thousand years of intrigue, murder and warfare behind them.

Back on the topic:

Fluff-wise, I think the Sanguinor, Draigo, Mephiston and Ghaz would be in his league. The Sanguinor is an aspect of a Primarch. Draigo is the exmeplar of a chapter meant to battle impossible horrors. Mephiston came back...different, and Ghaz is the Prophet of the Waaagh! Other like Marneus, the Avatar and etc. would likely get to do the "wound him badly and making him retreat before dying or going into a coma" trope, much like happened to Archaeon in Fantasy. It bears to remember that Abaddon is pretty much the boogeyman of the 40K universe, one of the few arch-traitors at the origin of the grimdarkness of the setting still kicking about. Yes, he's been defeated many times, because if he won the setting would change irrevocably, same as the Nids, Necrons, Orks and whatnot. They all get to be the colossal, dire threat that will end the Imperium really, really soon now!


----------



## darkreever

Deadeye776 said:


> The case being that he's failed in 12 attempts to conquer the Imperium but keeps coming back. Persistent bastard if anything.


What, pray-tell, are those twelve failed attempts you speak of?


----------



## hailene

darkreever said:


> What, pray-tell, are those twelve failed attempts you speak of?


Yeaaaah...I don't know why people still think all the BCs were sent against the Imperium or all of them "failed".


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## darkreever

hailene said:


> Yeaaaah...I don't know why people still think all the BCs were sent against the Imperium or all of them "failed".


Careful, your assuming Deadeye is calling twelve of the thirteen black crusades failures. However he has not said such a thing, so best not to jump and judge to quickly; though I do find myself face-palming when people say that about the crusades.


----------



## The_Reaper

darkreever said:


> Careful, your assuming Deadeye is calling twelve of the thirteen black crusades failures. However he has not said such a thing, so best not to jump and judge to quickly; though I do find myself face-palming when people say that about the crusades.


Well personally I think it depends how you look at it. I think people see Abaddon as a failure because they are comparing Abaddon's feats to Horus. Abaddon's feats may look lesser since he hasn't managed to break through cadia and storm terra itself. But in reality in the current 40k he hasn't really failed, without him chaos would have no leader and no unification at all( I mean who else is going to be the leader, daemon primarchs?). Chaos would also probably would not be a major threat to the imperium at all if it weren't for Abaddon.


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## SonofMalice

The true long war, has Abaddon actually succeeded in his assumed role as war master? Seems to me that he has and that most of the crusades ended alright for him. So he hasn't taken Terra, no one else has either. With the clock always at a minute to midnight the somewhat static nature of the setting prevents him from achieving anything more than he has really. If he breaks out it is over, most of the fluff seems to think so at any rate. I admit from a distance he looks bad but he's still managed more than any other potential champions of Chaos Undivided, hell even Horus would have a time dealing with the pulverized nature of the warbands as they exist now. Abaddon has done pretty well for both his legion and himself even if he hasn't taken Terra.


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## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> Well personally I think it depends how you look at it. I think people see Abaddon as a failure because they are comparing Abaddon's feats to Horus. Abaddon's feats may look lesser since he hasn't managed to break through cadia and storm terra itself. But in reality in the current 40k he hasn't really failed, without him chaos would have no leader and no unification at all( I mean who else is going to be the leader, daemon primarchs?). Chaos would also probably would not be a major threat to the imperium at all if it weren't for Abaddon.


Not all the BCs were aimed at Cadia. I'll leave it at that.


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## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Not all the BCs were aimed at Cadia. I'll leave it at that.


I never stated all the BCs were aimed at Cadia just merely stating he hasn't broken through Cadia.


----------



## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> I never stated all the BCs were aimed at Cadia just merely stating he hasn't broken through Cadia.


Well, the first BC burst through Cadia.

The 4th Crusade went around it and created a swathe of destruction through Segmentum Obscurus. 

The 7th crusade went straight past Cadia.


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## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Well, the first BC burst through Cadia.
> 
> The 4th Crusade went around it and created a swathe of destruction through Segmentum Obscurus.
> 
> The 7th crusade went straight past Cadia.


I meant to say through Cadia and into Terra like my original quote had stated. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


----------



## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> I meant to say through Cadia and into Terra like my original quote had stated. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


Well, that would be measuring the worth of a fish by its ability to fly, is it not?

Not all the BCs were designed to reach Terra.

Of the three I mentioned, none of them, in fact, were aimed at Terra.


----------



## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Well, that would be measuring the worth of a fish by its ability to fly, is it not?
> 
> Not all the BCs were designed to reach Terra.
> 
> Of the three I mentioned, none of them, in fact, were aimed at Terra.


Yes I know not all the BCs were designed to reach Terra or aimed at Cadia. Again sorry for misleading you I was just clarifying my statement, not directly responding to the 3 black crusades you mentioned.


----------



## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> Yes I know not all the BCs were designed to reach Terra or aimed at Cadia. Again sorry for misleading you I was just clarifying my statement, not directly responding to the 3 black crusades you mentioned.


I accept your apology. I'll turn the conversation back to your initial comment. Abaddon is looked as a "failure" because his deeds compared to Horus are less. After all, Horus had the Imperium by the throat, did he not?

I'll play devil's advocate here. Look at it another way...

Horus managed to swing 8 of his demi-god Brothers to his side with their Legions and attached Imperial Army units. He essentially wiped out two opposing Legions (the Raven Guard and Salamanders) in a brilliant trap. He (literally) decapitated the Iron Hands leadership (both their Primarch and most of their veteran battle-brothers), sucker punched the largest Legion at Calth, and managed to either becalm or otherwise distract all the other loyal Legions.

When Horus finally made it to Terra he faced 3 Legions, all of them harried through battle one way another. Horus was able to bring to bear at least 4 full Legions (The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters). We know that the Word Bearers and Night Lords sent Astartes as well. 

Horus not only denied the Imperium of its greatest forge world (Mars), but had also subverted it to his own cause. Due to his blockade, Horus was able to deny Terra any hope of reinforcement or resupply. As for his own supply lines, he had free access to the stocks and production of the greatest forgeworld in the Imperium a mere stone throw away.

And in the end he still fell short.

To quote Abaddon, "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away."

Puts things in perspective, no?


----------



## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> I accept your apology. I'll turn the conversation back to your initial comment. Abaddon is looked as a "failure" because his deeds compared to Horus are less. After all, Horus had the Imperium by the throat, did he not?
> 
> I'll play devil's advocate here. Look at it another way...
> 
> Horus managed to swing 8 of his demi-god Brothers to his side with their Legions and attached Imperial Army units. He essentially wiped out two opposing Legions (the Raven Guard and Salamanders) in a brilliant trap. He (literally) decapitated the Iron Hands leadership (both their Primarch and most of their veteran battle-brothers), sucker punched the largest Legion at Calth, and managed to either becalm or otherwise distract all the other loyal Legions.
> 
> When Horus finally made it to Terra he faced 3 Legions, all of them harried through battle one way another. Horus was able to bring to bear at least 4 full Legions (The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters). We know that the Word Bearers and Night Lords sent Astartes as well.
> 
> Horus not only denied the Imperium of its greatest forge world (Mars), but had also subverted it to his own cause. Due to his blockade, Horus was able to deny Terra any hope of reinforcement or resupply. As for his own supply lines, he had free access to the stocks and production of the greatest forgeworld in the Imperium a mere stone throw away.
> 
> And in the end he still fell short.
> 
> To quote Abaddon, "Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away."
> 
> Puts things in perspective, no?


No it dosent put things in perspective, not to me at least. You can view Horus's feats in many ways just like Abaddon's. It also depends what situation you are comparing it to at times.


----------



## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> No it dosent put things in perspective, not to me at least. You can view Horus's feats in many ways just like Abaddon's.


Do explain.

Horus had everything. In spades. Yet Horus failed.


----------



## Lord Commander Solus

hailene said:


> Do explain.
> 
> Horus had everything. In spades. Yet Horus failed.


I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place. It's not like it was just given to him and he still failed; it was quite an achievement that he managed to rend the Imperium in two, turn the Legions upon each other, turn his brothers against their father, and, as you said, get to Terra and hold the galaxy by the throat. He only fell short then because he needed to defeat the Emperor to truly become the Chaos Emperor of the Imperium, and he personally wasn't strong enough. 

That's hardly a failure; the Emperor, I think we can all agree, is a damn hard nut to crack. He only got put on the Golden Throne because of his mercy; once he saw Horus was beyond saving he turned on slap-mode and erased Horus from existence. His soul didn't even get returned to the Warp!

So yes, Horus fell at the final hurdle. But that final hurdle was the greatest psyker in existence.


----------



## HOGGLORD

I'm surprised no one has said this,

Mkoll of the Gaunt's Ghosts series
He would win because he simply cannot die. Abaddon would just fail to harm him and eventually a bunch of lasgun bolts or a demo charge to the balls would put him down...


----------



## Apostle

Lord Commander Solus said:


> I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place. It's not like it was just given to him and he still failed; it was quite an achievement that he managed to rend the Imperium in two, turn the Legions upon each other, turn his brothers against their father, and, as you said, get to Terra and hold the galaxy by the throat. He only fell short then because he needed to defeat the Emperor to truly become the Chaos Emperor of the Imperium, and he personally wasn't strong enough.
> 
> That's hardly a failure; the Emperor, I think we can all agree, is a damn hard nut to crack. He only got put on the Golden Throne because of his mercy; once he saw Horus was beyond saving he turned on slap-mode and erased Horus from existence. His soul didn't even get returned to the Warp!
> 
> So yes, Horus fell at the final hurdle. But that final hurdle was the greatest psyker in existence.


Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.


----------



## darkreever

Apostle said:


> Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.


When you think about it, that was likely the most sound move he coukd have made. Remember that loyalist reinforcments were but days away, those were fresh troops that the traitor fleet (with the vast majority of its strength on Terra) would have had to contend with in addition to those loyalists already on Terra.

Had Horus kept his troops on the ground and used the fleet, both elements would have been robbed of strength with no gaurantee of success. By making an opening, Horus forced the Emperor to fight Horus on Horus terms, on a battlefield of the warmasters choosing, and only when Horus was ready for the confrontation. That the Emperor still won simply goes to show that Horus's gambit was simply not enough.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord Commander Solus said:


> I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place.


Did he?

Horus was Warmaster, commander-in-chief of the Imperium's military. He had the initiative, the element of surprise and the time to initiate his plans. He had gathered support to the extent that a full-third of the Imperium's armies declared for him. He had as good as destroyed three Legions on the sands of Isstvan V and scattered several others to the wind. He was as good as given the advantages he possessed.

In _The Crimson Fist_, Dorn and Sigismund discuss the probability of the war reaching Terra: 


The Crimson Fist said:


> Sigismund echoed Dorn's frown. 'Horus has the initiative, we are the ones mired in confusion. He could cut us apart piece by piece, wait until we are so weak that there is no resistance left.'
> Dorn looked sharply at Sigismund, but he could tell that his father had considered the same possibility.
> 'If it was Curze or Alpharius then perhaps, but they are not at the heart of this.'
> ...
> 'He will come here,' said Dorn softly. 'He will not stay out amongst the stars and bleed us to nothing. No, he is still Horus. The single spear thrust to the throat, the final killing blow. He will come here to finish this. One night we shall look up and see the heavens burning.'


Perhaps if he remained out amongst the stars he could have, as Sigismund suggested, triumphed by bleeding the loyalists dry. But he always intended to strike at Terra and his father, I can't imagine the alternative was ever an option in his mind.



Apostle said:


> Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.


We don't know the exact reason why his shields were lowered.


----------



## Deadeye776

No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

Deadeye776 said:


> No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.


whats wrong with falling back to the eye?

He who fights and runs away, lives to crusade another day.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deadeye776 said:


> No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.


If that is in reply to my post, I (or Sigismund) was not suggesting he remained in orbit above Terra whilst he bled the loyalists dry. But out amongst the galaxy. 

What if, after Isstvan, Horus mustered his Legions and reinforced the Word Bearers assault on Calth? The death of Guilliman and destruction of the XIII would have only been the first step. If Horus remained out amongst the Imperium, whilst the loyalists remained mustered and paranoid on Terra, Horus would likely have triumphed by tearing the Imperium apart piece by piece, Legion by Legion.


----------



## Apostle

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If that is in reply to my post, I (or Sigismund) was not suggesting he remained in orbit above Terra whilst he bled the loyalists dry. But out amongst the galaxy.
> 
> What if, after Isstvan, Horus mustered his Legions and reinforced the Word Bearers assault on Calth? The death of Guilliman and destruction of the XIII would have only been the first step. If Horus remained out amongst the Imperium, whilst the loyalists remained mustered and paranoid on Terra, Horus would likely have triumphed by tearing the Imperium apart piece by piece, Legion by Legion.


That's what I am thinking. I also think fleeing (there wouldnt have been much of an immediate chase after the assault on Terra) and going to say, find and hunt down the Lion or Russ. Take them out, then return. He had more Primarch's at his disposal, and for sure more deadly ones. (IMO). 

Also Horus would have had more backup coming, though it would not have arrived before the Emperor's. If the full might of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion along with their Primarchs. In order for that to work however, at least one or two out of The Lion, Roboute and Russ would have to be taken out of the picture.
Go back and crush Terra.


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## Lux

Caiphas Cain with Jurgen could likely take him.


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## dragonkingofthestars

Lux said:


> Caiphas Cain with Jurgen could likely take him.


I don't know, Abadddon may be too much even for. 

*Caiphas Cain hero of the Imperium*!!


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## darkreever

Lux said:


> Caiphas Cain with Jurgen could likely take him.


Pretty sure the OP was asking about who could take him on one on one, so even if Cain could do it with Jurgen by his side that kinda fails in the one vs one department.


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## Turnip86

Random Imperial Guardsman number 10002023898394839384321982

Lucky lasgun/flashlight shot to the groin, Abaddon falls down a well


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## dragonkingofthestars

Abaddon VS CReed

Creed reaches into the holster on his hip ,, and pulls out a bane blade!


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## Apostle

I already know the answer I will get. But what about Typhus or Lucius. (Abaddon would SURELY take some pleasure in beating Lucius)


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## demonictalkin56

dragon king you beat me to it......that tactical genius

Gamewise.....bloke with vortex grenade (kills anything outright i think?)

Fluffwise:......Matt Ward?


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## dragonkingofthestars

Apostle said:


> I already know the answer I will get. But what about Typhus or Lucius. (Abaddon would SURELY take some pleasure in beating Lucius)


oohhh, that open up a whole CAN of worms.

if Lucius kills Abaddon, he wins.

if Abaddon kills Lucius, Abaddon turns into lucius and he wins any way.


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## Lux

Caiphas by himself sans no Jurgen...would likely win 8 out of 10 matches every match up.


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## Apostle

Lux said:


> Caiphas by himself sans no Jurgen...would likely win 8 out of 10 matches every match up.


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## TheGoblin

Apostle said:


> I already know the answer I will get. But what about Typhus or Lucius. (Abaddon would SURELY take some pleasure in beating Lucius)


I believe this was mentioned earlier in this thread (although I may of just read it elsewhere) but the general consensus to the whole Lucius v.s Abaddon scenario was that in the end it would come down to who had more favour in the eyes of the Gods. I'm pretty sure it would be Abaddon in which case, as he has the backing of all the Gods, not just Slaanesh. Who knows though? Maybe Slaanesh really, really loves Lucius...


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## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Do explain.
> 
> Horus had everything. In spades. Yet Horus failed.


Like I said it depends on your views and there are many perspectives on Horus's deeds it all depends what you compare it to. You can view him as a failure or a success. I think you know the answer you are educated in fluff related to Horus's deeds and Abaddon's, plus you clearly have different perspectives as you played the devil's advocate after all.


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## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> Like I said it depends on your views and there are many perspectives on Horus's deeds it all depends what you compare it to. You can view him as a failure or a success. I think you know the answer you are educated in fluff related to Horus's deeds and Abaddon's, plus you clearly have different perspectives as you played the devil's advocate after all.


Well, I'm interested in hearing your spin.

After all, we're a discussion board.


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## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Well, I'm interested in hearing your spin.
> 
> After all, we're a discussion board.


Yes we are indeed, but it would be way too long explaining every single one of my perspectives( I have multiple perspectives). Besides the other posts gave some pretty good ones in response. You can discuss it with them. Also as I said you clearly know your fluff on Abaddon and horus you may also have multiple perspectives yourself.


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## hailene

The_Reaper said:


> Yes we are indeed, but it would be way too long explaining every single one of my perspectives( I have multiple perspectives). Besides the other posts gave some pretty good ones in response. You can discuss it with them. Also as I said you clearly know your fluff on Abaddon and horus you may also have multiple perspectives yourself.


Fill in with as much as you feel comfortable with. I want to see your theories and see how they mesh with my own understanding. I'm a relative new comer to the fluff (maybe the last 7 years or so I've been hacking through codices and BL books), so there are things I may have missed.

And even if I read something I may have missed its significance or simply forgot it. So don't be shy. I'm not trying to get you to post something so I can browbeat you in an argument. Really. 

I have made a statement and you have brought up a potential counterpoint. I am interested in hearing it for my own sake.


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## The_Reaper

hailene said:


> Fill in with as much as you feel comfortable with. I want to see your theories and see how they mesh with my own understanding. I'm a relative new comer to the fluff (maybe the last 7 years or so I've been hacking through codices and BL books), so there are things I may have missed.
> 
> And even if I read something I may have missed its significance or simply forgot it. So don't be shy. I'm not trying to get you to post something so I can browbeat you in an argument. Really.
> 
> I have made a statement and you have brought up a potential counterpoint. I am interested in hearing it for my own sake.


Oh I know you aren't trying to beat me in a argument, I am not either. Not shy just too long to explain and I already filled in as much as I feel comfortable with in my previous posts.


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## rabidsnail12

Ghaz would have the best shot escpecially now that abbys ap3
but fluff wise they would duel and duel and go back and forth and then just when Ghaz was about to crush him he was would change his mind and keep him alive cause it was such a good fight!


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## MontytheMighty

hailene said:


> I personally don't think either of those two could hold a candle to Abby. He's a Space Marine with thousands of years of experience.


Why do people insist on perpetuating this misconception?
Time flows differently in the Warp. Talos, a Heresy-era Night Lord, is only a few centuries old in 40K (three centuries IIRC)

Abbadon most likely has several centuries (not several millennia) of experience


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## darkreever

MontytheMighty said:


> Why do people insist on perpetuating this misconception?
> Time flows differently in the Warp. Talos, a Heresy-era Night Lord, is only a few centuries old in 40K (three centuries IIRC)
> 
> Abbadon most likely has several centuries (not several millennia) of experience


Because for every person who makes that particular misconception, there is someone else who makes the misconception that all traitor marines have lived for less than ten thousand years.

While it is true that many of them have only experienced hundreds of years, to them, others have experienced the passing of several millenia.


With all the plotting, raiding, scheming, fighting, and searching the Despoiler has done in these last ten thousand years, I wouldn't be surprised if he has experienced more than just a few centuries.


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## MontytheMighty

darkreever said:


> Because for every person who makes that particular misconception, there is someone else who makes the misconception that all traitor marines have lived for less than ten thousand years.


Yes except I haven't made that misconception if you're referring to me 

Read please...



MontytheMighty said:


> Abbadon *most likely* has several centuries (not several millennia) of experience


Why "most likely"? I can't think of a single example of a Heresy-era traitor marine who has lived for more than 10,000 years. It almost always seems to be the other way around _a la_ Talos


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## darkreever

MontytheMighty said:


> Yes except I haven't made that misconception if you're referring to me


I was not, I would have called you out on it if I was.:biggrin:


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## MontytheMighty

darkreever said:


> I was not, I would have called you out on it if I was.:biggrin:


Well, I still don't think it's a good idea to combat one misconception with another misconception 

My view: Time flows _differently_ in the Warp (could be slower, could be faster). However the common trend seems to be that time flows slower in the Warp (i.e. a few hundred years in the Warp = 10,000 years in realspace). This seems to be so especially in the case of traitor marines


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## hailene

MontytheMighty said:


> Well, I still don't think it's a good idea to combat one misconception with another misconception
> 
> My view: Time flows _differently_ in the Warp (could be slower, could be faster). However the common trend seems to be that time flows slower in the Warp (i.e. a few hundred years in the Warp = 10,000 years in realspace). This seems to be so especially in the case of traitor marines


Time flows both ways.

Variel mentions that the Corsairs have, in a few centuries after their fall, become just as genetically warp-corrupted as the traitor legions. Yet the Corsairs have only turned to Chaos after the Badab war--that ended in 912.

Clearly their time in the warp went faster than the rest of the galaxy.

Look, we know that Abaddon has been around for 10,000 years--real time. Do you have any proof that time had sped up considerably for him? I personally do not any recollection of them mentioning his actual experience.

So on the matter of burden of proof, which one has more? The one that accepts a lesser multiplier (anywhere between 1x-5x) or the greater one? (The one where you believe time has sped up by at least a factor of 30).

Do crush my "misconception" with your "proof", please.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> Yes except I haven't made that misconception if you're referring to me


Except you did, because even by stating "most likely" you are suggesting that Abaddon having experienced significantly less than ten millennia is the most likely occurence. Which isn't the case at all.



MontytheMighty said:


> Why "most likely"? I can't think of a single example of a Heresy-era traitor marine who has lived for more than 10,000 years. It almost always seems to be the other way around _a la_ Talos


I don't believe we have categorically be given that many examples other than Talos? Though as _hailene_ has said, some of the Red Corsairs have certainly experienced many more years than standard realspace.

From _Void Stalker_:


> The Great Heresy was days in the past for some traitors within the Eye, and fifty thousand years gone for others. All of them, each and every soul to betray the Emperor in that golden age, could claim a different scale of time for the years since.


What that tells us is that every traitor (or warband) is different, some could have experienced significantly less time than the standard ten millennia, some significantly more. You said Abaddon had "most likely" experienced less than the standard ten millennia, whilst in truth, we simply don't know.


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## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Except you did, because even by stating "most likely" you are suggesting that Abaddon having experienced significantly less than ten millennia is the most likely occurence. Which isn't the case at all.


No, I didn't...that would be a different "misconception"

The misconception mentioned earlier is that time *has to* flow slower in the Warp. "Most likely" doesn't fit that misconception. By saying "most likely", I acknowledged that time could flow faster or slower 

I've explained why I think Abbadon is most likely much younger than 10,000 years old. Of course, I realise that it's my opinion. 

Simply put, Heresy-era traitors (with known ages) all seem to be much younger than 10,000 years old. Talos is one example. I believe that the TS in _Battle of the Fang_ are much younger than 1,000 years old even though in that novel, 1,000 years have elapsed since the Heresy. Other specific examples slip my mind right now. 



hailene said:


> Time flows both ways.


I'm aware of that, see above...



> Look, we know that Abaddon has been around for 10,000 years--real time. Do you have any proof that time had sped up considerably for him? I personally do not any recollection of them mentioning his actual experience.


Do you have proof that his true age is at 10,000+ years? No, you don't



> Do crush my "misconception" with your "proof", please.


You've crushed it yourself. According to your present logic, we simply wouldn't know his true age. Earlier, you were saying "10,000 years" as if it were a sure thing...



> Variel mentions that the Corsairs have, in a few centuries after their fall, become just as genetically warp-corrupted as the traitor legions. Yet the Corsairs have only turned to Chaos after the Badab war--that ended in 912.


Your Red Corsairs example proves something_ I've already taken into account_. However, it's still not an example of Heresy-era traitors who are 10,000 years old or older...



> So on the matter of burden of proof, which one has more? The one that accepts a lesser multiplier (anywhere between 1x-5x) or the greater one? (The one where you believe time has sped up by at least a factor of 30).


The size of the "multiplier" has little bearing on what's more likely. Note that Warp/realspace time-"multipliers" are usually portrayed as being rather huge

*My argument*: _In the fluff_, Heresy-era traitors who are younger than 10,000 years old seem to be much more common than Heresy-era traitors who are 10,000 years old or older. The ages of most traitors are never mentioned of course. 

Thus, we have at least a few examples of Heresy-era traitors who are known to be relatively young (several centuries). There seem to be no examples of Heresy-era traitors who are known to be relatively old (10,000+ years). 

Yes, I suppose there is a possibility that Abaddon is 20,000 years old. Judging by the fluff, I just don't think so...


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## hailene

MontytheMighty said:


> Simply put, Heresy-era traitors (with known ages) all seem to be much younger than 10,000 years old. Talos is one example. I believe that the TS in _Battle of the Fang_ are much younger than 1,000 years old even though in that novel, 1,000 years have elapsed since the Heresy. Other specific examples slip my mind right now.


How many original Heresy marines do we know their actual age? Besides Talos's merryband of rapists and murderers? 



MontytheMighty said:


> The size of the "multiplier" has little bearing on what's more likely. Note that Warp/realspace time-"multipliers" are usually portrayed as being rather huge


The multiplier has a lot to do with it. The warp's passage of time is inconsistent--sometimes you'll enter the warp for a week and a year will pass in the rest of the universe. The next jump you take may last a week for you and you may end up going back in time.

Over the course of 10,000 years the phenomenon will probably balance out. 

This is why my more conservative estimate of at least a few thousand years old is much more likely than a radical 30-50x multiplier. 

A couple of sources that show traitor marines that are at least thousands of years old:

From _Storm of Iron_: "The guns of Tor Christo opened fire, sending screaming projectiles towards their lines, but *Forrix had been building fortifications for thousands of years* and was a true master of siegecraft."

From _Dark Creed_: "Kol Badar waved them away with a snarl, sending them scurrying. *Heavily scarred from thousands of years of bitter warfare,* his face was lit from below by the ruby-red internal glow of his ancient Terminator armor."

"Ancient and heavily augmented, Ekodas' face bore the ravages of* thousands of years of war*;"

"a sizeable chunk of the Host was arrayed here, warriors that Burias had fought alongside for* thousands of years."
*
Another Chaos champion by the name of Sabtec has the following narration for him. "For all [Sabtec's] tactical savvy and strategic brilliance, all the experience garnered from *thousands of years of constant warfare*, he had few options."

I could look for more, if you'd like.

The one thing you got right is we don't know Abaddon's true age. The question is, which is more likely given our lack of information, a huge multiplier of 30x? Is he likely to be 300 years old to 300,000 years old? Or a more moderate 5000-20,000?

Without further information, it's likely to be something closer to the center. He's been in out and of the warp very frequently. It's likely the ups and downs have somewhat evened out.


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