# top CC primarch



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

i know this has probably been asked, and talked over alot of times, and i been looking at constant forums, for this, and people are always arguing and such, what is the general concensus of the fans, for this....

the best hand 2 hand, close combat primarch

imo its out of the 4

,angron, russ,sanguinius, maybe horus....

but who is considered the best Close combat primarch


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

This is a tricky question... I think you should have Lion'el Johnson up there as well, because he fights as well as Russ himself, even KOing him in a hand-to-hand battle (granted, he hit him when he was weakest).

I'd probably go with Horus, because he's the one who actually gave the Emporer a good fight, and being the leader of Chaos, I think he deserves more credit than the others.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

A five year old boy would have given the Emperor a good fight if he was empowered by all four chaos powers at the same time. Plus the Emperor held back for 99% of the fight hence why he suffered huge injuries.

In regards to the OP's question, I'd go with Angron despite not seeing him in action. I say Angron because if not him, he is a useless Primarch (mostly because of the new fluff about Russ and his Astartes-killing Legion) or at least until ADB reinvents him. 

Hopefully he'll make Angron capable of mopping the floor with any Primarch (as he should) including Horus/Russ because in my opinion he is the most combat-oriented of them all.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Didn't Konrad Curze really batter a couple of his brothers to though?

This has been debated many times in various forms, whos the strongest, toughest, best fighter and so on, and there's no number one I think. In the fluff, they're all seen as these demigods among men and utterly above comprehension. 

But to answer your question, it should be Angron. Simply because combat was his life, even more so than the rest.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

ANGRON. Even horus thought angron was better. Cannot remember where i read it though.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

sanguinus


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Angron definatly the best close combat primarch, but the one who can cause most damage is still Magnus.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Angron? Horus Lupercal? 

Those two spring to mind... *shrugs*


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Fulgrim. He will pretty you to death.










(Seriously, it's probably Angron or Horus but I'll chuck in Ferrus because I like him. I mean, the guy beat up a molten-metal-dragon-lizard-C'tan-thingy- how hard is he?)


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> Fulgrim. He will pretty you to death.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hard enough to get, as you say it, prettied to death.

If Angron is not the best in close combat he is a pointless Primarch

I think jaghatai khan and corax are near the top as well.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

Angron, hands down. What he lacked in tactics and co-operation he made up for in raw melee power.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Klaivex said:


> Hard enough to get, as you say it, prettied to death.
> 
> If Angron is not the best in close combat he is a pointless Primarch
> 
> I think jaghatai khan and corax are near the top as well.


Well, in Ferrus' defence he was prettied to death by his best friend- seriously, how hard would you smack your best friend, even if he was smacking you?- who was powered up by a powerful and kinky daemon. Anyone'd have trouble, I think.

And it depends on what type of CC we're talking about. If it's on the battlefield then Corax could sneak up from behind, but in a face-to-face boxing-ring type of fight he would loose that advantage and I don't think he would be the strongest. Strong certainly, but I'm sure there are Primarchs that beat him when it comes to sheer cakes of muscle.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> Well, in Ferrus' defence he was prettied to death by his best friend- seriously, how hard would you smack your best friend, even if he was smacking you?- who was powered up by a powerful and kinky daemon. Anyone'd have trouble, I think.
> 
> And it depends on what type of CC we're talking about. If it's on the battlefield then Corax could sneak up from behind, but in a face-to-face boxing-ring type of fight he would loose that advantage and I don't think he would be the strongest. Strong certainly, but I'm sure there are Primarchs that beat him when it comes to sheer cakes of muscle.


My friends and i have fought harder than those two and we were not genetically grown for battle.

I agree that Corax is not THE strongest CC fighter but his ability makes him possibly the most deadly. He doesn't need to sneak up from behind, he just has to want you to ignore him. He could skip right up to your face while singing opera and as long as he focuses his mind his opponent will be none the wiser about his presence.

The Khan has been described as the best swordsman and considering that a good portion of the primarchs use swords he has to be up there as well.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Klaivex said:


> He could skip right up to your face while singing opera and as long as he focuses his mind his opponent will be none the wiser about his presence.


That is a picture and a half... :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Rogal Dorn was possibly pretty good to, he thought he could beat everyone.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

And yet Curze kicked his ass.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not again...there's so many variables and reasons as to why Dorn got beaten up it really doesn't count.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You can't sneak up on a Primarch.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's a difference between sneaking up and having your brother suddenly go ape shit on you.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

So Dorn was too slow to register the minute differences in Curze's behavior, breathing, etc. and too slow to block the first, second or third attack?

Also, why would Dorn be afraid of a Primarch he believed he could beat unless of course he tried and failed miserably?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet Curze kicked his ass.


This again... :headbutt:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Dorn was afraid of the truth that Curze brought with him and it's entirely possibly he didn't understand what was happening, even Primarchs can be surprised.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

True he was afraid of the idea that Curze was right all along but he was also afraid of Curze himself.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'd go with Russ. Ahriman's impression of him when they first met. He literally felt like he was being taken apart and assessed to find weaknesses. No other primarchs has been described as an IBM "How to destroy you" app. It seems he was created as a failsafe to keep the others in line. Angron may be more of a berserker rage killer but I don't see Russ having a problem with savagery or ferocity. From Angrons depiction in the Istavaan masacre I do see him with control and calculating problems which is where I see Russ handing him his ass.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

This is a very difficult question, and it would depend heavily on the situations, and I do believe that all of the primarchs would have been VERY close to each other. However, I do believe that Angron, Tweedy, Russ, and Horus would have been the top tier as far as close combat goes, but again, it is a hit or miss sort of deal. If you were to throw any of those 4 up against another I would not be willing to put money on a winner.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'd go with Russ. Ahriman's impression of him when they first met. He literally felt like he was being taken apart and assessed to find weaknesses. No other primarchs has been described as an IBM "How to destroy you" app. It seems he was created as a failsafe to keep the others in line. Angron may be more of a berserker rage killer but I don't see Russ having a problem with savagery or ferocity. From Angrons depiction in the Istavaan masacre I do see him with control and calculating problems which is where I see Russ handing him his ass.


The two points in blue are very, very good. First Ahriman is a psyker, very smart and very astute. If this is how he felt to Russ' gaze, then you can take that as a serious remark.

Secondly, Angron would be his own worst enemy. As anyone who's ever studied martial arts will tell you, no matter what it is from boxing to judo, the key is to stay calm. When your angry, you make mistakes. Deadly ones in combat. It's always the level-headed fight who wins.

The only thing I'd argue against that is that this is 40K and Angron's own neural implant berserker things. His sheer savage ferocity, even for Russ, could prove troublesome, and I honestly think you'd have to literally destroy Angron to stop him, he wouldn't know he was beat until he was dead. He'd be so high on berserk rage that if you cut off his arm he'd pick it up and bitch-slap you with it.

I'd love to the see fight though. Also the SW are the Emperor's (implied) executioners, implying they wiped out the two lost legions and same for the Thousand Sons. I'm really not so sure as to who the best is now.

Russ or Angron, thats close.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'd go with Russ. Ahriman's impression of him when they first met. He literally felt like he was being taken apart and assessed to find weaknesses. No other primarchs has been described as an IBM "How to destroy you" app. It seems he was created as a failsafe to keep the others in line. Angron may be more of a berserker rage killer but I don't see Russ having a problem with savagery or ferocity. From Angrons depiction in the Istavaan masacre I do see him with control and calculating problems which is where I see Russ handing him his ass.


Ask yourself this question then.

Why would the Emperor need Angron if he has a berseker with an on and off switch at his beck and call?

BL messed up big time with the new fluff on Russ. Angron is officially a useless Primarch unless ADB does something drastic.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Machiavellismx said:


> He'd be so high on berserk rage that if you cut off his arm he'd pick it up and bitch-slap you with it.


"Tis but a scratch".


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Arguably all of the primarchs can be said to be the best in combat for various reasons. If we're talking a straight up fight, weaponless, in which power and prowess are ranked higher than other faculties I would be inclined to opt for Angron or Russ. But as somebody else mentioned earlier it really is dependent on the situation the fight takes place in.

If we look at past "fights" we have Curze somewhat comprehensively beating Dorn, Lorgar putting Roboute on his arse, the Lion sucker punching the Wolf and Fulgrim beheading the Gorgon. All of these fights have one thing in common, a tactical advantage in favour of the winner. Curze, Lorgar and the Lion all relied upon the surprise of the blow they delivered in order to triumph, Fulgrim in an even larger swing of odds made use of a daemon possessed blade.

In my opinion I think all of the primarch's are equal in their abilities to best their brothers on an open level playing field, however due to the diversity of their specialist skills a small change in the environment or state of play can tip the balance of the scales in the direction of one of them.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The eleventh primarch.

Seriously, not to be an ass, but this thread is as pointless as all its predecessors have been. There's no single best primarch in close combat, as they each had their own areas in which they excelled. For example, guys like Fulgrim, the Khan and the Lion all excel at swordsmanship where as guys like Vulkan and Ferrus seem to prefer brute force over finesse and guys like Curze just fight plain dirty. Magnus lacks decent fighting skills but can conjure blades of pure force from his arms (and do other annoying psyker things) so you can't underestimate him either. 

Each of these strengths can be a potential fight winner depending on the situation. There really are way too many things to consider to point to one primarch as the best.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax had range on his side, especially if he used his power whip.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I am not being biased, but based on what is written in the HH series, it is Russ. In 1k sons (or maybe is was Prospero Burns) russ is described as being a Primarch designed to kill other primarchs. It is implied in the First Heretic 

that russ and the Wolves purged the two lost legions, as russ says that he does not want to lose another brother, while lorgar and magnus discuss that the lost legions were Purged. This leaves me believing that Russ destroyed them, and he would have been tasked with destroying the Word Bearers as well had he not taken lorgar's side. 
 That is what attracts me to space wolves the most as well, the fact that they are designed to destroy other space marines, it makes them much more menacing in my opinion. 

Angron comes at a close second, given the description of him in Galaxy in Flames, where he is just an angry red wrecking ball. His fury is almost unmatched, but i think that Russ is a hunter, while angron is insane. Russ would find Angron's weakness and exploit it, opening him like a tin of beans, while angron would just throw himself at russ. 

Horus is not in this at all, as he admits that he cannot match the martial prowess of the Wolf King or angron. He becomes the undisputed master when he is imbued with chaos, but that is it. He is a strategist, a diplomat, a warrior and a leader, but in pure close combat, both russ and angron would destroy him.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Russ beat but failed to kill magnus, tied then lost to the lion and there is nothing to say that he delivered the killing blow to either of the missing primarch himself.

He doesn't have a great record as a primarch slayer. 

I believe it was in first heretic where it was stated that guilliman and lion were the best strategists and fulgrim and khan were the best swordsmen. Russ could not beat the lion's sword so how would he fair against fulgrim's or khan's. It would make sense that he would not do as well. russ and lion were so evenly matched that even the slightest advantage such as better sword skills could have won the battle.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I get the feeling GW would say Russ, probably to appease the rabid Rout fanbase that are convinced the Wolf King is devoid of any flaws. =D 

But in a straight up duel, I'm going to say Sanguinius. He killed Ka'Bhanda (the second time, true, but beat him nonetheless), and I know I've read somewhere that Horus was forced to use his psychic powers to beat Sanguinius because he couldn't beat him in hand-to-hand. Being able to fight a quadruple-God empowered Primarch to a draw is something no other Primarch ever did.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Russ beat but failed to kill magnus, tied then lost to the lion and there is nothing to say that he delivered the killing blow to either of the missing primarch himself.
> 
> He doesn't have a great record as a primarch slayer.
> 
> I believe it was in first heretic where it was stated that guilliman and lion were the best strategists and fulgrim and khan were the best swordsmen. Russ could not beat the lion's sword so how would he fair against fulgrim's or khan's. It would make sense that he would not do as well. russ and lion were so evenly matched that even the slightest advantage such as better sword skills could have won the battle.


Russ started laughing at the conflict between himself and the Lion, then the Lion hit him with a cheap shot, hardly a convincing victory :headbutt: Magnus fled the scene, not much he could do there. Nothing to say he didn't end the missing primarchs either, as is implied. Only the chaos primarchs are true primarch killers as written in the fluff, because as far as i recall, no Loyal primarch ever killed a chaos primarch. Russ is the closest we get to a primarch slayer, and i am only saying that, from what we have to go on, Russ is created to be a primarch killer, that sentence is actually written in the book, so that would suggest he can defeat Primarchs. Don't underestimate the Wolf King :victory:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> Russ started laughing at the conflict between himself and the Lion, then the Lion hit him with a cheap shot, hardly a convincing victory :headbutt: Magnus fled the scene, not much he could do there. Nothing to say he didn't end the missing primarchs either, as is implied. Only the chaos primarchs are true primarch killers as written in the fluff, because as far as i recall, no Loyal primarch ever killed a chaos primarch. Russ is the closest we get to a primarch slayer, and i am only saying that, from what we have to go on, Russ is created to be a primarch killer, that sentence is actually written in the book, so that would suggest he can defeat Primarchs. Don't underestimate the Wolf King :victory:


Gulliman _might_ have killed one of the alpha legion twins but that is it for loyalists. 

And it doesn't matter that he stoped to laugh... before that he still couldn't win. And Retreating is a very valid tactic which he did not counter in the magnus fight.

Despite what the sentence may suggest, the actions that have taken place make it seem that he has trouble killing or in some cases even beating other primarchs.

Sadly I agree that russ should not be underestimated because BL is making him into a superman in a world without kryptonite... the best at everything with no weaknesses.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Gulliman _might_ have killed one of the alpha legion twins but that is it for loyalists.
> 
> And it doesn't matter that he stoped to laugh... before that he still couldn't win. And Retreating is a very valid tactic which he did not counter in the magnus fight.
> 
> ...


In an old WD it was stated that Russ defeated Horus in a duel. Russ broke Magnus over his knee. It would seem he had a fairly good track record. I would wager that he was not really giving the snuggle fight with the lion his all, though that might just be because he had a giggle fit after, but that is just me.



SonOfStan said:


> But in a straight up duel, I'm going to say Sanguinius. He killed Ka'Bhanda (the second time, true, but beat him nonetheless), and* I know I've read somewhere that Horus was forced to use his psychic powers to beat Sanguinius because he couldn't beat him in hand-to-hand. Being able to fight a quadruple-God empowered Primarch to a draw is something no other Primarch ever did.*












Tweedy was good, but he was not that good. Tweedy made a dent in his armor..... A DENT. He didn't so much fight him to a draw as much as he scratched his rims, and got bitch slapped. Horus made a joke of sang on that bridge.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Klaivex said:


> And it doesn't matter that he stoped to laugh... before that he still couldn't win. And Retreating is a very valid tactic which he did not counter in the magnus fight.


The topic was about a straight one on one close combat fight though. Russ wouldn't be laughing then, and would be prepared.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> In an old WD it was stated that Russ defeated Horus in a duel. Russ broke Magnus over his knee. It would seem he had a fairly good track record. I would wager that he was not really giving the snuggle fight with the lion his all, though that might just be because he had a giggle fit after, but that is just me.


A duel is not the same as a fight. If i remeber correctly Russ greatly respected horus. That is not the same as a pissed off brother fight or a fight to the death. 

Also if we are throwing speculations about, horus regularly used the other primarchs strengths and weaknesses to improve their performance on the battlefield. Russ was a very prideful individual. Thinking that he was a better fighter than horus would easily make him take risks that he might otherwise avoid because he thinks he is the best. It would be a very wise and characterful action for horus to take.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Machiavellismx said:


> The topic was about a straight one on one close combat fight though. Russ wouldn't be laughing then, and would be prepared.


So in a one on one fight russ and lion is still a tie


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> A duel is not the same as a fight. If i remeber correctly Russ greatly respected horus. That is not the same as a pissed off brother fight or a fight to the death.
> 
> Also if we are throwing speculations about, horus regularly used the other primarchs strengths and weaknesses to improve their performance on the battlefield. Russ was a very prideful individual. Thinking that he was a better fighter than horus would easily make him take risks that he might otherwise avoid because he thinks he is the best. It would be a very wise and characterful action for horus to take.


Sang, and I believe Angron also beat him in said duels. Duel, noun: contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honor. Hm........... well shucks, I suppose it wasn't pre-arranged so you gots me right der. Russ respected integrity, and he wasn't stupid. If Horus had thrown the duel, Russ would have been perceptive enough to figure that out, and Horus would have known that. He sure as shit didn't throw it. Look, I am not saying Russ was the best, but I would put him up there. Thing is, shit happens, and we really can't know who will win, though if he fought Horus in a duel and managed to come out on top, and Horus was regarded as one of the greatest, it seems to suggest he was probably upper tier.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Sang, and I believe Angron also beat him in said duels. Duel, noun: contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honor. Hm........... well shucks, I suppose it wasn't pre-arranged so you gots me right der. Russ respected integrity, and he wasn't stupid. If Horus had thrown the duel, Russ would have been perceptive enough to figure that out, and Horus would have known that. He sure as shit didn't throw it. Look, I am not saying Russ was the best, but I would put him up there. Thing is, shit happens, and we really can't know who will win, though if he fought Horus in a duel and managed to come out on top, and Horus was regarded as one of the greatest, it seems to suggest he was probably upper tier.


I can tell if your being sarcastic but i am guessing that it was very much pre arranged. The Primarchs regularly spared with one another which were not duels in by your definition.

Russ wasn't "stupid" but he was very brash and somewhat petty. The lion fight was over lion killing someone russ wanted to kill because of an insult. As such i wouldn't put it passed him to miss slight "mistakes" by a master manipulator. 

That's neither here nor there however as that was just in response to your speculation.

I do agree with you that russ isn't the best which is what my statement was in the first place, but i also agree that he is probably one of the better fighters.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> I can tell if your being sarcastic but i am guessing that it was very much pre arranged. The Primarchs regularly spared with one another which were not duels in by your definition.
> 
> Russ wasn't "stupid" but he was very brash and somewhat petty. The lion fight was over lion killing someone russ wanted to kill because of an insult. As such i wouldn't put it passed him to miss slight "mistakes" by a master manipulator.


Yes, I was. What? No, was talking about the Lion and Russ, the non-prearranged honor duel.... I mean fight. 

Though, I shall add the other definition. 
2. any contest between two persons or parties.

There, now it is a duel. 

Anywho, back to that other thing, Russ was a tad bit miffed not only because the Lion got the kill, but because he used to wolves as a distraction to get said kill. Basically, Russ was pissed because he got his men killed, and stole the honor of the final kill from him..... which is understandable.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, I was. What? No, was talking about the Lion and Russ, the non-prearranged honor duel.... I mean fight.
> 
> Though, I shall add the other definition.
> 2. any contest between two persons or parties.
> ...


I thought you were talking about the horus fight. my mistake.

That's not how i remember the lion and the wolf incident. IIRC russ got pissed that he was called a lapdog and wanted to rush the fortress but got denied by the lion who had spent days making a very tactical plan that resulted in few casualties and the lion dealing the death blow to the insulter as russ watched from down below.

It wasn't so much that the lion used the wolves as a distraction as he already had a well mapped out plan. the wolves and russ are just brash and prideful.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> Tweedy was good, but he was not that good. Tweedy made a dent in his armor..... A DENT. He didn't so much fight him to a draw as much as he scratched his rims, and got bitch slapped. Horus made a joke of sang on that bridge.


 
I literally just laughed my ass off. 

You could totally be right. Out of curiosity, where exactly is the blow-by-blow account of the fight written down?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

SonOfStan said:


> I literally just laughed my ass off.
> 
> You could totally be right. Out of curiosity, where exactly is the blow-by-blow account of the fight written down?


I BELIEVE, and I could be wrong, it is in the collected visions. Not sure though.



Klaivex said:


> It wasn't so much that the lion used the wolves as a distraction as he already had a well mapped out plan. the wolves and russ are just brash and prideful.


I do not believe that is so. If I remember right, it was the angels who charged leaving the wolves flank open.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angron. Its pretty obvious. The dude is a gladiator experiment gone wild.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Machiavellismx said:


> Didn't Konrad Curze really batter a couple of his brothers to though?


No, we don't know how he "beats" Dorn.
Given the circumstances, it could very well have been a sucker punch in the style of Lion vs. Russ. 

As for Curze vs. the Lion, I think that the writing indicates that Curze is throttling the Lion to death before the Lion is saved by one of his marines, but ADB has explicitly stated on this forum that the Curze vs. Lion fight is an overall draw...whatever that means. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> So Dorn was too slow to register the minute differences in Curze's behavior, breathing, etc. and too slow to block the first, second or third attack?


*Sigh* really? Lion fans don't cite the Lion vs. Russ fight to [email protected] the Lion.
Is Russ too stupid to notice that the Lion is really pissed and about to smack him silly? A primarch can be surprised by another primarch, it's as simple as that. 

Seriously, I really don't get why Curze fans insist on citing an incident we simply don't know enough about to [email protected] Curze. Curze's insanity and psychotic tendencies make a surprise attack/sucker punch very likely. 



gen.ahab said:


> I would wager that he was not really giving the snuggle fight with the lion his all


I think it would be fairer to assume that *neither* primarch is "giving it their all" (fighting to kill) during that incident.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think it would be fairer to assume that *neither* primarch is "giving it their all" (fighting to kill) during that incident.


........ I figured that was implied.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Klaivex said:


> So in a one on one fight russ and lion is still a tie


How is it a tie? The Lion beat Russ with a sucker punch. Anyones who been in a fight will know if you get the jump on someone and don't let up, chances are, you're going to win the fight, even if they're bigger and badder than you. 

I've also been taught that the majority of 'real' fights, e.g. on the street, not boxing or such, are won in the first few seconds. If you're fighting someone properly and you put em on the ground, there's no way they should get back up. So there's no evidence at all that the Lion and Russ would be a tie, and I think Russ would batter him. The Lion would put up a hell of a fight though, and might even get lucky.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> No, we don't know how he "beats" Dorn.
> Given the circumstances, it could very well have been a sucker punch in the style of Lion vs. Russ.
> 
> As for Curze vs. the Lion, I think that the writing indicates that Curze is throttling the Lion to death before the Lion is saved by one of his marines, but ADB has explicitly stated on this forum that the Curze vs. Lion fight is an overall draw...whatever that means.


Yeah, I like Curze a lot but I've viewed him as the psychotic little bro, the one you rub the wrong way and he just totally loses it and starts wailing on your head.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> *Sigh* really? Lion fans don't cite the Lion vs. Russ fight to [email protected] the Lion.
> Is Russ too stupid to notice that the Lion is really pissed and about to smack him silly? A primarch can be surprised by another primarch, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Seriously, I really don't get why Curze fans insist on citing an incident we simply don't know enough about to [email protected] Curze. Curze's insanity and psychotic tendencies make a surprise attack/sucker punch very likely.


If you actually answer my questions, you'll find an answer.

So try it brother.

Was he, a Primarch, incapable of noticing Curze's supposedly sudden change from being calm to being supposedly insane? 

Was he, a Primarch, incapable of blocking the first, second or third attack from Curze?

What we do know is that in a matter of seconds, Curze was on top of an unconscious and bleeding Dorn.

Refute me instead of calling me a lolfanboi.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Was Curze incapable of noticing the lion about to shove a sword in his gut?

P.S it wasn't in seconds.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Not in seconds? Even worse for Camp Dorn.

There is a difference between Curze/Dorn and the Lion/Curze.

The Lion was like  the whole time even as he plunged the sword into Curze's gut. The Lion is as cold as stone, he can display 0 emotions if need be given his nature whereas Curze according to the critics, suddenly became psychotic indicating a huge mood swing which even a toddler could probably anticipate. But it didn't do jack shit. 

Curze just ran away for a few seconds and recovered then proceeded to beat the shit out of the Lion. 

Nice try though


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not exactly, one second the Lion was speaking to Curze, the next he's hilt deep in Curze's gut, exactly the same as Curze and Dorn, one minute Dorn is giving him a tongue lashing the next Curze is going ape shit on him. 

Even if he went into a trance and zoned out on Dorn then potentially Dorn wouldn't strike him back because he knows he's not himself and he doesn't want to hurt his brother.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

A Primarch can detect the subtlest of changes in behavior. Curze did not suddenly go psychotic nor can anyone without giving away telltale signs nor have we even seen him being capable of doing so. 

And again, this notion of Curze being psychotic does not really make sense because we have not seen being bat-shit crazy except in one of ADB's books when he is in his fortress but even that is a big maybe. If I recall correctly, at that point he had not eaten, slept, etc. for quite some time. 

So Dorn happily let Curze maul him because he is his brother?

Not really a convincing argument but you are entitled to your opinion.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that Curze is a Primarch ass-kicker but are more than willing to accept Russ and his legion as being legion killers? 

Will it take ADB or some other author to directly state this?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> A Primarch can detect the subtlest of changes in behavior. Curze did not suddenly go psychotic nor can anyone without giving away telltale signs nor have we even seen him being capable of doing so.
> 
> And again, this notion of Curze being psychotic does not really make sense because we have not seen being bat-shit crazy except in one of ADB's books when he is in his fortress but even that is a big maybe. If I recall correctly, at that point he had not eaten, slept, etc. for quite some time.
> 
> ...


The first part of the Dark King is Curze going nuts, having visions and then coming to and realising he's sat on Dorn's body.

It's unheard of for a Primarch to do what he did to another Primarch, yes they have little scraps but Curze went nuts! Dorn has a soft side, its evident in every book he's in, he actually gives a shit, so the idea he doesn't want to hurt his psychopathic brother is not beyond reason.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If you actually answer my questions, you'll find an answer.
> 
> So try it brother.
> 
> ...


Curze did not actively attack Dorn. He had a terrible nightmare/vision and flailed about unconsciously and dorn happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that primarchs can read each others emotions perfectly and react accordingly in even the most random of circumstances but it doesn't even apply to a fight with a guy who has no idea he is fighting in the first place.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

All this discussion shows why the Heresy happened in the first place :biggrin:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The first part of the Dark King is Curze going nuts, having visions and then coming to and realising he's sat on Dorn's body.





Klaivex said:


> Curze did not actively attack Dorn. He had a terrible nightmare/vision and flailed about unconsciously and dorn happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


We don't know how much time transpired between Curze knocking Dorn out cold and him realizing that he has been having visions. He probably knocked him out, chilled on his body for a few minutes and then had the visions and then woke up a few hours later.



Klaivex said:


> How would Dorn notice it if Curze didn't even notice it. He came to on top of a beaten Dorn. He basically sleep walked over Dorn.
> 
> There was not a clear definition of what took place during the fight. Curze had a night terror and then dorn was down. It could very well have been that dorn came to help wake him when he got knocked out.


So a sleep-walking Curze beat up an awake and alert Dorn?



Klaivex said:


> I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that primarchs can read each others emotions perfectly and react accordingly in even the most random of circumstances but is doesn't even apply to a fight with a guy who has no idea he is fighting in the first place.


If an Astartes can read a human like a medical scanner then I can only imagine what a Primarch can do. 

If Dorn was unable to dodge one or two of Curze's supposedly random attacks then what does that say about his combat prowess? It's a Primarch, the pinnacle of perfection, not some kid at a bar talking to a drunk dude.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> We don't know how much time transpired between Curze knocking Dorn out cold and him realizing that he has been having visions. He probably knocked him out, chilled on his body for a few minutes and then had the visions and then woke up a few hours later.


We do though.....he doesn't know what he's doing it's clear by the way it's written in _The Dark King_, it even states it was getting a tongue lashing by Dorn after Fulgrim told Dorn what Curze told him about his visions, then he go nuts has visions of death and destruction on Terra, then an Imperial Fist makes him realise what he's sitting on.

Have you read the Lightning Tower or the Dark King?

As shown during his little scrap with the Lion, Curze use a brawler, he gets down and dirty, it's entirely possible during his state of psychosis he did exactly the same to Dorn except this time he had no idea what the hell was happening.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I've read the Shining and Patton Oswalt's autobiography.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> We don't know how much time transpired between Curze knocking Dorn out cold and him realizing that he has been having visions. He probably knocked him out, chilled on his body for a few minutes and then had the visions and then woke up a few hours later.


I very much disagree with this speculation. Curze did not know he had beaten dorn. He didn't look down at him and go "oh yeah. i kicked dorns ass!" He was surprised by it.


> So a sleep-walking Curze beat up an awake and alert Dorn?


Yes. An unconscious but terrified, fighting for his life, Curze beat a surprised and probably confused dorn.



> If an Astartes can read a human like a medical scanner then I can only imagine what a Primarch can do.
> 
> If Dorn was unable to dodge one or two of Curze's supposedly random attacks then what does that say about his combat prowess? It's a Primarch, the pinnacle of perfection, not some kid at a bar talking to a drunk dude.


With the large amount of known physical and character flaws i would never call primarchs the pinnacle of perfection.

And what reason did Dorn have to be "Scanning" him. If you go up to a family member are you always prepared for them to punch you in the face and try to kill you?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's unheard of for a Primarch to do what he did to another Primarch, yes they have little scraps but Curze went nuts! Dorn has a soft side, its evident in every book he's in, he actually gives a shit, so the idea he doesn't want to hurt his psychopathic brother is not beyond reason.





Words_of_Truth said:


> Even if he went into a trance and zoned out on Dorn then potentially Dorn wouldn't strike him back because he knows he's not himself and he doesn't want to hurt his brother.


Dorn is probably one of the least (if not _the_ least) likely primarch to try to kill one if his brothers 



Klaivex said:


> Yes. An unconscious but terrified, fighting for his life, Curze beat a surprised and probably confused dorn.


I don't know why Curze fans refuse to acknowledge this very plausible possibility 



Klaivex said:


> There was not a clear definition of what took place during the fight. Curze had a night terror and then dorn was down. It could very well have been that dorn came to help wake him when he got knocked out.


makes more sense than Curze fans' wishful thinking that Curze totally outclasses a prepared, mind/emotion-reading Dorn


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I don't know why Curze fans refuse to acknowledge this very plausible possibility


Because if they acknowledge the that theory then Cruze would no longer look like the uber badass they want him to be. It sounds much cooler to say he overpowered Dorn in a haze, because it makes Cruze seem so much stronger then Dorn.

It's the reason why these arguments of which fictional character beats who fall apart really quickly. People pick specific evidence to make their choice look amazing, and willingly throw out other evidence that may contradict that point.

Edt: Oh and an alternate idea for Cruze knocking out Dorn. Psychic Backlash from his vision of the future. Making Cruze a stronger psyker then Magnus. I have 0 evidence to support this assumption except Cruze had a vision and when he woke up Dorn was knocked out. And we know visions come from the warp like psychic powers. =P


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Everyone arguing against Curze knocking Dorn unconscious are even bigger fan boys than I am lol.

Despite all their arguments, it does not change the fact that one Primarch was on the ground and the other wasn't. 

How Curze accomplished this does not matter for in the end, Dorn was on the floor bleeding and unconscious and permanently scarred.

*Age of Darkness. 
*
Savage Weapons:



_"‘Our father said nothing, for he hides within his dungeons, collecting the secrets of the universe and sharing them with no one. Lorgar and Magnus have seen everything our father sought to hide, so do not carry a precious little lie as your shield, Lion. 

You are Dorn’s hound, running here to the Eastern Fringe because he ordered you.’ Curze licked his filed teeth. ‘Come, brother. Let us at least do one another the service of being honest. I know Dorn.’ Here, the Night Lord gave his cadaverous smile again. 

‘He sent you to do that which he feared to try himself.’_


in b4 taken out of context.

Oh and don't hate me, hate ADB /rhyme


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Despite all their arguments, it does not change the fact that one Primarch was on the ground and the other wasn't.
> 
> How Curze accomplished this does not matter for in the end, Dorn was on the floor bleeding and unconscious and permanently scarred.


Except it does matter. We know NOTHING about what happened. It's literally Cruze opened his eyes and Dorn was down. That is literally ALL we know about the situation. It is equally likely (until otherwise stated by Black Library) that Cruze knocked him out with a sucker punch or just by flailing his arms and getting a lucky hit or by psychic backlash or Night Haunter took over and smashed Dorn into the ground in a legit fight (albeit a surprise attack and Dorn was most likely not trying to kill him).

The only hint of evidence we have is what you quoted from Age of Darkness, but that's hardly conclusive.

But by all means, you can keep stating things to support your theory, just don't discount the possibility that you could in fact be wrong.

The most hilarious thing about these subjects is the Primarchs, like most fictional characters, have such variable power levels it's not even funny.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Everyone arguing against Curze knocking Dorn unconscious are even bigger fan boys than I am lol.
> 
> Despite all their arguments, it does not change the fact that one Primarch was on the ground and the other wasn't.


really?
no one is saying Curze didn't knock out Dorn
people with at least a shred of intellectual honesty are saying that the incident simply isn't a good example to cite for the purpose of [email protected] Curze

in the same vein, the result of the Lion vs. Russ fight is set in stone, but non-fanboys wouldn't try to [email protected] the Lion by saying how awesome he was for knocking out Russ (who arguably should've been more on guard than Dorn)



> "‘Our father said nothing, for he hides within his dungeons, collecting the secrets of the universe and sharing them with no one. Lorgar and Magnus have seen everything our father sought to hide, so do not carry a precious little lie as your shield, Lion.
> You are Dorn’s hound, running here to the Eastern Fringe because he ordered you.’ Curze licked his filed teeth. ‘Come, brother. Let us at least do one another the service of being honest. I know Dorn.’ Here, the Night Lord gave his cadaverous smile again.
> ‘He sent you to do that which he feared to try himself.’


someone with decent reading comprehension (and whose judgment isn't clouded by Curze fanboyism) would realize that the above quote doesn't prove anything as to the details of that encounter between Curze and Dorn

*where is the evidence that Dorn was prepared but simply couldn't handle Curze's superior fighting prowess?
hint: there is no evidence until an authour clears it up*

all we know is that Dorn verbally berated Curze
Curze blacked out, went into crazy mode
and was found crouching over Dorn like a wild animal


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Stick to Predators taking out Astartes and questioning whether or not a xenomorph can take out a Primarch brother. Those are much simpler concepts.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Stick to Predators taking out Astartes and questioning whether or not a xenomorph can take out a Primarch brother. Those are much simpler concepts.


PR3DAT3R BEETZ UP 3VRY1 LOLOLOLOLLLL!!!!!!1111 OMG THY GRB TEH L8SR CNNON N PWN TEH PRIMARKS!!11

But seriously. That's true. These arguments always dissolve into fanboyism. People just need to be honest with themselves; if you're in love with/hate the concept of a certain character, don't bother discussing their merits vs. another character. For example, I absolutely hate Leman Russ. I don't even bother trying to explain to people why he's such an easily manipulated piece of dog-turd moron lamo anymore, because I know how biased I am. I can't hold an objective conversation on the issue. :laugh:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

It should be Angron. He literally has no purpose other than being a badass, hand-to-hand monster of a Primarch. If he is not the best in HtH then he is the worst Primarch. Simple as that.




Deadeye776 said:


> I'd go with Russ. Ahriman's impression of him when they first met. He literally felt like he was being taken apart and assessed to find weaknesses. No other primarchs has been described as an IBM "How to destroy you" app. It seems he was created as a failsafe to keep the others in line. Angron may be more of a berserker rage killer but I don't see Russ having a problem with savagery or ferocity. From Angrons depiction in the Istavaan masacre I do see him with control and calculating problems which is where I see Russ handing him his ass.


However it appears that Russ is the best, as stated above. After all Russ is perfect, why wouldn't he be the best in HtH?

As a side note though. Just because you can see someones weaknesses doesn't mean you can exploit them. I think (and I hope this becomes canon else Angron is lacking purpose) that Angron is likely to be so capable a fighter, so relentless/tireless/what-have-you that anyone facing him will be given literally zero time to forumlate, let alone enact, a counter-strategy. Basically he just keeps coming and though you might see the openings he'll leave you no time to take them. 



MontytheMighty said:


> *where is the evidence that Dorn was prepared but simply couldn't handle Curze's superior fighting prowess?*
> *hint: there is no evidence until an authour clears it up*
> 
> all we know is that Dorn verbally berated Curze
> ...


The evidence is right there. Dorn was verbally assaulting someone he knew to be unstable immediately following a psychotic break. Cruze then proceed to show that the break wasn't quite over and obliterate Dorn. 

This leaves a couple of possible scenarios.
A) Dorn approached a confrontation with a violent pyscho with no anticipation of violence. In which case he is dumb and Curze is not necessarly any better a fighter. Seems unlikely.
B) Dorn was prepared for violence but not on the scale/speed that Night Haunter was. In which case Dorn is a nice guy and Curze is fast.
C) Dorn was fully prepared for violence but Curze was so OMG-PWN that he owned him anyway. In which case Dorn is a much meaner guy than originally thought and Curze is for the win. Seems unlikely

This leaves B as the most likely scenario for the fight. What this means is that Night Haunter was capable of either knocking Dorn out before he could respond (which shows a fair deal of strength and speed) or getting around Dorns guard (which shows a fair deal of skill). The idea that Dorn wouldn't defend himself is complete bull.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

I'd be inclined to vote for Angron for the same reason; he is such a one-dimensional Primarch that, if he isn't the best in a scrap, he is pretty much rendered pointless. I am also tired of the constant "Russ and the Space Wolves are the bestest at everything" mob.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

harlokin said:


> I'd be inclined to vote for Angron for the same reason; he is such a one-dimensional Primarch that, if he isn't the best in a scrap, he is pretty much rendered pointless. I am also tired of the constant "Russ and the Space Wolves are the bestest at everything" mob.


Please read prospero burns, Russ is a hurricane, but he is totally in control, like the alpha male in a pack of wolves. Russ is the best, he would kill everyone ever, even the emperor, because he is the best. Russ would win becuase he is the best, i like space wolves, space wolves are great because they are the best.

Anyway, It is between Russ and Angron, and until we get serious evidence of angron's power, not a few pages in Galaxy in Flames. They need their own novel, which ADB wants to write apparently. After all, Khorne doesnt choose the high combat level primarch, he chooses the highest. And don't get me started on Kharn.........Kharn you beast.......


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The best Close Combat Specialist? I think it would be the Primarch standing over you about to stove your head in with his bare fist :grin:


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> Please read prospero burns, Russ is a hurricane, but he is totally in control, like the alpha male in a pack of wolves. Russ is the best, he would kill everyone ever, even the emperor, because he is the best. Russ would win becuase he is the best, i like space wolves, space wolves are great because they are the best.


:biggrin: quoted for great truth!


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Old white dwarf article, Horus fought with all the primarchs only 3 bested him. Sang, Russ and a third one, I can tell you this though it was not Angron or Corax.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I believe it was also that Horus had never faced a Primarch (think it was Corax) So he didn't know if he could beat him.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Lux said:


> Old white dwarf article, Horus fought with all the primarchs only 3 bested him. Sang, Russ and a third one, I can tell you this though it was not Angron or Corax.


A sparing match and a fight are two very different things.
The only primarch he actually fought for real was sang.
He definitely didn't spar with all the primarchs. Corax for sure and i'm pretty sure there were others as well.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> A sparing match and a fight are two very different things.
> The only primarch he actually fought for real was sang.
> He definitely didn't spar with all the primarchs. Corax for sure and i'm pretty sure there were others as well.


It states he trained all the primarchs in the theatre of war and fought with each of them except for Conrad Curze. So yes he did spar and train all of them save for Curze...it states very clearly only three bested him in combat and it lists all three of their names, Corax was not one of them nor was Angron.

As for fighting Sang for real...that fight is entirely unknown, nothing is known of how that battle actually occurred. Additionally Sanguinas was horribly fatigued and injured by that point while Horus was not even Horus, he was the physical manifestation of all four Chaos gods in one centralized point.


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## RussElite (Oct 13, 2011)

Nooo way, Russ > et al.

Such a bawsssss Primarch, definatley my favourite (Cptn. Obvious)

Other then my above bias comment, for close combat - I would have to say;

Horus or Angron (fighting for silver, lol)


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Horus trained Russ how to fight? Really? Once again I'd like to hear where Russ was under Horus and learned how to anihilate other legions. It seems there are a bunch of wild stories I've never heard. From what I knew of most of these primarchs the ones like Russ, the lion, Gulliman, Khan, and Angron for example came ready to rock on their own. Though Horus was adept at weilding there abilities in the right theatre, I don't belive he had to instruct any of the primarchs in their duties. Russ fought the Emperor and from what I heard about his fight with Horus he was pummeling him until the Emperor stepped in and knocked him out for a month. Apparently they didn't speak again for a year, due to Russ being pissed. I'll look up where I saw this but from what I read the only primarchs who really listened to Horus beyond following orders were Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Motarion, Alpharius, Dorn, and Lorgar. 

The Lion and Gulliman thought they should have been the warmaster going to the point that they felt they were better than Horus. The Wolf King knew his place as the executioner but always looked like he was his own man. The same for Khan, Corax,and Vulkan. I don't see them needing instruction in how to fight wars or fight. Finally if you look at how competitive the primarchs were with one another I don't believe, even if non-lethal, they would take losing to each other lightly. A sparring match would be as close to actual combat (as all warriors do) as they could make it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Horus was the brightest and possibly the quickest learner.

Also he was with the Emperor a lot longer and learned more from him than any other Primarch hence his teacher position. 

Imo^


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

As all 20 primarchs had an aspect of the Emperor it was said Horus had his ambition.His drive to succeed and ability to see it done. Horus knew how to weild the forces at his brothers command and his as well. He knew who excelled at what and employed them. This however isn't a discussion on who's the best tactician or who should have been warmaster. The question is who's the best a close quarter combat.It was said that Horus instructed his brothers in this. I'm saying that's bullshit. Horus can't beat Leman Russ. If he could he would have beat him in the sparring match. He couldn't. Whatever Horus taught Leman or the other primarchs I'm more than sure it was how to work in the Imperial forces and not how to fight. Like I said most if not all of them came ready.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Horus was above them all in almost aspect except certain things. 

It was because of his ambition and charisma that possibly was the driving force behind this.

He instructed his brothers at first but then they developed their own methods over time.

My 2 cents.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

my thoughts;

Angron: the bezerker primarch is unfortunately IMO the "broken" one, other than Cruze, because of the...device...in his head, who knows what Angron's original trait of the emperor was/is. it could very well be the bezerker/blood lust.

but all being said angron belongs somewhere in the top 5 (spots 3-5 personally).


Cruze: i dont know much of the "new" fluff on cruze but from what i gather he has more of an "on/off" switch to his insanity, before i thought that he was more like "the joker" from batman - insane/unpredictable all the time but with reality.

however i have NEVER thought of Cruze being a head on CC warrior, striking from the shadows and causing terror/fear into others were the differences in him and any other primarch, hell even by the end of the great crusade the Night Lords got more joy out of terrorizing and terrifying the populaces of the worlds they attacked. he isn't, and never was, in the top 10 personally.

Russ: from my understanding the best CC specialist (overall) of the primarchs, mainly from reading (one of the HH books dealing with Horus - early ones) that Horus was unbeaten in CC to any other of the primarchs other than Russ. this IMO makes Russ De facto #1. and also makes Horus de facto #2.

others: draw straws for order, just put Magnus last.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest Malus I took the "First above all others" to mean him in terms of glory and success. He's the closest to the Emperor. Has the most sucessful Legion. Has the most victories out of everyone or close to it. That makes him the number one primarch.In terms of one on one? No. I don't think if you look at Angron or the Lion it looks like they changed at all from how they were on their planets. Russ and the Khan included as well as most if not all the others. I don't think he really trained any of these guys in anything other than "This is how you fit into the Imperial plan, when I say go here, do what you do best."


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## RussElite (Oct 13, 2011)

Fallen said:


> my thoughts;
> 
> Russ: from my understanding the best CC specialist (overall) of the primarchs, mainly from reading (one of the HH books dealing with Horus - early ones) that Horus was unbeaten in CC to any other of the primarchs other than Russ. this IMO makes Russ De facto #1. and also makes Horus de facto #2.
> 
> others: draw straws for order, just put Magnus last.


Agreed


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Good argument for Russ. I'll agree. I'm going to say everyone is saying Angron is a monster for his berserker rage. I guess he's more like if the Hulk was a primarch and had a legion.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Fallen said:


> Russ: from my understanding the best CC specialist (overall) of the primarchs, mainly from reading (one of the HH books dealing with Horus - early ones) that Horus was unbeaten in CC to any other of the primarchs other than Russ. this IMO makes Russ De facto #1. and also makes Horus de facto #2.
> 
> others: draw straws for order, just put Magnus last.



Defeating Horus does not automatically make him #1 and Horus #2. If That were the case Lion would be #1 too because Russ could not beat him.

And by your logic of "if Russ can beat the guy who beat everyone , then he can beat everyone"... Lion couldn't beat Curze so obviously Russ couldn't beat Curze either because as we know he could not beat the Lion.

The logic is flawed. Primarchs all had unique fighting styles that would give them advantage over some, and weakness against others.

Russ is certainly one of the best but beating one Primarch in one sparring match does not make him the end all be all.


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## Demon Prince (Sep 29, 2011)

Angron, He Was Fitted With A Combat Enhancing Device Which Caused Him To Produce More Adrenalin And Beef Up His Muscle Mass. Plus He Was A Slave At One Point On A Planet Which Promoted Gladiator Fights Where The Device Was Implanted And Later On When He Took Over Command Of His Chapter He Had Them All Implanted With the Device.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Fallen said:


> Russ: from my understanding the best CC specialist (overall) of the primarchs, mainly from reading (one of the HH books dealing with Horus - early ones) that Horus was unbeaten in CC to any other of the primarchs other than Russ. this IMO makes Russ De facto #1. and also makes Horus de facto #2.
> 
> others: draw straws for order, just put Magnus last.


So you wanna put Russ on top and Magnus way down it the bottom, even though Russ barely managed to beat him, only gaining any advantage in the fight when he managed to poke him in the eye? Well, okay then.

Quite frankly, I don't know who to put on top but I'd actually put someone like Guilliman at the bottom, purely because there is never any mention of his martial prowess. Hell, Lorgar gets made out to look like a pussy and even he bitch-slapped Guilliman in _The First Heretic_. And we now know that Lorgar wasn't a pussy at all but was just holding back.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> So you wanna put Russ on top and Magnus way down it the bottom, even though Russ barely managed to beat him, only gaining any advantage in the fight when he managed to poke him in the eye? Well, okay then.
> 
> Quite frankly, I don't know who to put on top but I'd actually put someone like Guilliman at the bottom, purely because there is never any mention of his martial prowess. Hell, Lorgar gets made out to look like a pussy and even he bitch-slapped Guilliman in _The First Heretic_. And we now know that Lorgar wasn't a pussy at all but was just holding back.


Yet Guilliman is convinced that he can take Horus. And I'm half convinced he could to. I actually really like Guilliman after reading the The First heretic, and Age of Darkness.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

One of my favorite moments in 40k was Dorn getting his ass handed to him by Fulgrim and dying. I'm pretty sure Dorn thoght a lot of things. However arrogance and self-awareness rarely go hand in hand.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> One of my favorite moments in 40k was Dorn getting his ass handed to him *by Fulgrim* and dying. I'm pretty sure Dorn thoght a lot of things. However arrogance and self-awareness rarely go hand in hand.


...I'm assuming you mean Night Haunter here as Im fairly sure Fulgrim never fought Dorn.:wink:


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Captain Stillios said:


> ...I'm assuming you mean Night Haunter here as Im fairly sure Fulgrim never fought Dorn.:wink:


Dorn also never died by Night Haunters hand. More likely they meant Ferrus.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Or Guilliman. 

As to the best primarch in close combat i would have to give it to Angron if for no other reason then he would be a bit useless otherwise. Angron has always been depicted as this unstoppable force or barely restrained anger. It's not for nothing he became the Khorne's, the most martial god, champion. Russ is good but he doesn't have to be the best at everything. 

Really though this thread seems to have developed into whose fanboys can shout the loudest.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> As to the best primarch in close combat i would have to give it to Angron if for no other reason then he would be a bit useless otherwise. Angron has always been depicted as this unstoppable force or barely restrained anger. It's not for nothing he became the Khorne's, the most martial god, champion. Russ is good but he doesn't have to be the best at everything.


exactly, if another primarch were the best single combat/close combat fighter...what would be the point of Angron?

also, it's worth noting that the close combat duel between Russ and Magnus was a very close affair
I think the exact words were that Russ "lashed out wildly" and luckily caught Magnus in his only eye 
I'll get the quote later


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Yeah I miss wrote that I mean to right Gulliman getting his ass handed to him by Fulgrim. Also if you don't think Dorn almost died at the Night Haunters hands I'm not gonna argue that. You can hear it from his mouth and Malcador's dicussion in Lightning Tower. Also Angron is like the Hulk. The Hulk can be beaten by other characters but he's the only character where rage makes him nigh-unstoppable. A guy like Russ labeled the executioner has killed 3 of his brothers. I'm pretty sure he's the type of guy to give them the honor of a fair fight.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> A guy like Russ labeled the executioner has killed 3 of his brothers.


He killed 3 of his brothers? Do you have a source for this?

As far as i recall he hasn't killed any of his brothers officially. He beat Magnus but didn't kill him, and his legion was sent to destroy the 2 missing legions, which they didn't completely destroy because some of the numbers were absorbed into the Ultramarines.

It is never stated to my knowledge that Russ personally slew them himself, and frankly that wouldn't even make much scene. The Emp has never ordered the death of one of his sons, he always just wants them "brought in to answer for their actions" (Magnus, Curze, etc...) Hell he can't even bring himself to kill Horus after he became the greatest villain the galaxy had seen to date.

It would be so out of character for the emp to order the killing of 2 of his sons and then never do it again.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Some SPOILERS








Again the Lightning Tower. Malcador remmeber Sigismund offering to destroy the traitors plinths to which the Emperor laughed, guess he wasn't that broken up by it. In First Heretic Russ says that he's already lost 2 brothers and he doesn't want to lose anymore. In Prospero Burns it's insinuated that Russ holds the job of the Emperor's executioner and he's sanctioned brothers before. It's been insuanated that Russ and his wolves take care of jobs like this. Whatever happened to the 2 traitor primarchs it's been heavily alluded that Russ and his legion were the sanction that fell upon them.His martial pride would have Russ facing them one on one. Just like he did for Magnus.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Some SPOILERS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He lost two brothers... he didn't kill two brothers
They sanctioned the legions... they didn't destroy the legions (ultramarines absorbed them)
His martial pride may have caused a one on one fight... that doesn't mean he killed them. He fought one on one with magnus and Lion and didn't kill either of them.

And again, them Emp has never ordered the death of one of his sons. Even Curze who he was not particularly found of was only ordered to be brought in. If anything with the 2 missing primarchs his orders to Russ were probably less "Sick 'em boy" and more like "Fetch." That would be much more in character.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

ADB has already stated the idea the Ultramarines absorbed them all was merely a rumour and not fact.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay this goes to my other point. I don't ANYONE really knows what going on with the Emp. The Sic'em or Fetch analogy is exactly what I'm talking about. Guys like Angron got their DNA from the Emperor. Within him is the ability to be that berserker rage beast that gramatcius alluded he was. He said even back in the old days he was a "bloodthirsty bastard." So I think the Emperor is the kind of guy who could kill his sons brutally (Angron), keep secrets detrimental to his sons (Lion), and rule through fear of retribution if anyone got out of line (Kurze). This guy is not some benevolent leader everyone makes him out to be. It's already been shown in fluff that at will he can discard his compassion and emotion (his fight with Horus). If you want to dispute that Russ killed his brothers I'll by that. But don't tell me it's not in his character to do dirty shit to his subjects or his sons. Mechanicus is a pretty good example of his by any means necessary attitude.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> ADB has already stated the idea the Ultramarines absorbed them all was merely a rumour and not fact.


Rumors are not necessarily false. To me it felt like they wanted to give an real answer but it had to be described as just a rumor so as to not reverse the reason the 2 legions were originally not described... so that people could create their own legions.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> So I think the Emperor is the kind of guy who could kill his sons brutally (Angron), keep secrets detrimental to his sons (Lion), and rule through fear of retribution if anyone got out of line (Kurze). This guy is not some benevolent leader everyone makes him out to be. It's already been shown in fluff that at will he can discard his compassion and emotion (his fight with Horus).


All you are pointing out is that The Emperor displayed normal human traits, which is not much of a revelation. His intent (for Humanity) is ultimately benevolent, but as with many great leaders, the end for him justifies pretty much any means.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

While the Emperor likely does have all of his sons within his personality they are also tempered by the others. So you don't see the extremes that become present when you remove the others. Night Haunter embodies loyalty through fear but balanced with Vulkan (love and compassion) the Emperor would likely not (and never really does)display the extremes of behaviour we see in Curze.

The facts are that in no other situation does the Emperor order the direct killing of his sons and he holds back in his fight against Horus. The other Primarchs refer to the 'seperate tragedies' of the lost Primarchs. Russ himself refers to losing brothers not killing them, he doesn't strike me as the kind to mince words. The Word Bearers believe that the Ultramarines absorbed some of the lost legions, however this is a rumour indicating that they don't actually know what happened to those legions. 

These things all make it unlikely in my mind that Russ killed any of his brothers.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay this goes to my other point. I don't ANYONE really knows what going on with the Emp. The Sic'em or Fetch analogy is exactly what I'm talking about. Guys like Angron got their DNA from the Emperor. Within him is the ability to be that berserker rage beast that gramatcius alluded he was. He said even back in the old days he was a "bloodthirsty bastard." So I think the Emperor is the kind of guy who could kill his sons brutally (Angron), keep secrets detrimental to his sons (Lion), and rule through fear of retribution if anyone got out of line (Kurze). This guy is not some benevolent leader everyone makes him out to be. It's already been shown in fluff that at will he can discard his compassion and emotion (his fight with Horus). If you want to dispute that Russ killed his brothers I'll by that. But don't tell me it's not in his character to do dirty shit to his subjects or his sons. Mechanicus is a pretty good example of his by any means necessary attitude.


I agree that the emp isn't the nicest guy in the 'verse... he was a down right a-hole in the last church.

And while the aspects of the primarchs are within the emperor, they are a mix... they aren't like separate personalities. He wouldn't go into "Angron mode" and kill his son because that would be tempered by the other aspects.

And while he does kill/sacrifice/destroy humans for various reasons, even when he gets super pissed at one of his sons (Lorgar, Magnus, Curze), the worst he does is yell at them and ask that they be brought in to be reprimanded by him. He has never lost his cool enough to be like "just kill the little brat!"

Edit: Ninja'd by MEQinc... Well said.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> I am not being biased, but based on what is written in the HH series, it is Russ. In 1k sons (or maybe is was Prospero Burns) russ is described as being a Primarch designed to kill other primarchs. It is implied in the First Heretic
> 
> that russ and the Wolves purged the two lost legions, as russ says that he does not want to lose another brother, while lorgar and magnus discuss that the lost legions were Purged. This leaves me believing that Russ destroyed them, and he would have been tasked with destroying the Word Bearers as well had he not taken lorgar's side.
> That is what attracts me to space wolves the most as well, the fact that they are designed to destroy other space marines, it makes them much more menacing in my opinion.


The implications that it was the Space Wolves doing the purging are all in _Prospero Burns_. In TFH, it just mentions over the course of a long conversation that Russ was one of the primarchs to support Lorgar and speak out against the possibility of the Word Bearers being purged. Just because Russ is mentioned on a side topic in the same talk doesn't mean it's directly tied to the mentions of the Lost Legions getting purged. Several primarchs spoke out for and against Lorgar - none are implied as doing any purging.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Rumors are not necessarily false. To me it felt like they wanted to give an real answer but it had to be described as just a rumor so as to not reverse the reason the 2 legions were originally not described... so that people could create their own legions.


The key phrase here is: _"To me it felt like..."_.

It's certainly possible, and the Word Bearers discuss it as a rumour several of them have heard, but it's not a way of breaking the fourth wall to slip out some cheeky lore.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

These men are post humans, so the human condition or capabilities barely in the realm of existence. The Emperor even more so than the others. His dream is of the utmost importance. You guys are looking at this like some kinda Cosby family dynamic. These primarchs were created to lead armies and possibly die which is apart of war.While the Emperor does have paternal inclinations toward them, I wouldn't say like any good commander if your troops got out of line or endangered a mission of the utmost importance you wouldn't sanction them. I'm saying the Emperor is capable of anything as his sons were created to run armies, not hug. Everyone is trying to keep this peaceful image of the Emperor and that he was forced to do terrible things for the greater good. That's bullshit. The entire heresy could have been avoided and to be honest it's all his fault. 


Magnus- He gave him a legion of sons suffering from mutations. He could have helped but who knows. 

Curze- He should have left him or listened to him. He has all the abilities Kurze had so he knew he wasn't just crazy. Everything Curze saw was true. Everything he said in the Dark King was true of the Imperium. 

Angron- All the Emperor had to do was help. Why he chose to do this with Corax and Mortarion but pretty much said F your friends is beyond me. For a guy who's all about martial honor and pride, The Emp screwed himself in Angrons eyes as I don't think he ever truly respected his father.

Horus- The Domino effect. Being open and honest with your top commander may be important so he knows why and how important it is what your doing and why your leaving him in charage. This blatant "Your in charge and even though you felt a closeness with me, I don't trust or care for you enough to tell you why I'm leaving " is the Emperor's fault. He could hav avoided massive and irreparable damage to his dream by telling his son "Stay here and continue the fight while I try and manage a safer means of travel other then the warp, there are things there we shouldn't be exposed to, I'll tell you more when there's time." That one sentence might have saved the entire Imperium.

Lorgar- Religions (I'm an atheist) IMO come from a lack of understanding. Why's it raining? The Gods want it to rain. Why are you living forever and are able to create us?You must be a God. Instead of sitting his sons down and explaining himself and where he was coming from he decided (The Lion) to keep secrets and lead from secrets within secrets. 


The Emperor in my opinion is a cold hearted bastard. He screwed his sons from the beginning and set them up for ultimate failure. His imperium was built on lies and idealistic bullshit that like Curze said would never maintain or last in the end. To rule an empire you needed Curze's tactics, maybe not as harsh but they were necessary. If you want to believe the Emperor didn't kill his sons go ahead. Look at what's been shown he's capable of the lies, deceit, and bloodshed. They were his sons, but in truth I do believe they were more a means to an end. When those means didn't work out he got rid of them in my opnion. Magnsu IMO was being brought in for consorting with the Chaos Gods, breaking the NIkkea ruling, and his legion being mutants. What do you think would have happened to him? A " You've been a bad boy?" Believe what you want,I'm saying Russ killed his brothers and if he'd gotten magnus back to terra he would have been executed as well.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The key phrase here is: _"To me it felt like..."_.
> 
> It's certainly possible, and the Word Bearers discuss it as a rumour several of them have heard, but it's not a way of breaking the fourth wall to slip out some cheeky lore.


What would be the point of adding that in? What does it add to the story if not a likely answer?

And i don't view it as cheeky lore. I think it is quite clever actually. It would explain why the Ultramarines are so numerous, it explains the fate of the missing legions, and it explains why there is so much variation between the subsequent foundings of the Ultramarines. They are based off of 3 geneseeds instead of 1.

Not sure what you meant by breaking the 4th wall as i never claimed that to be the case. It was worked into the story as a rumor, which again i think is a clever way to convey an idea without destroying the original concept of the missing legions.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Dead Blue Clown is the author of the book btw, just to let you know


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> These men are post humans, so the human condition or capabilities barely in the realm of existence. The Emperor even more so than the others. His dream is of the utmost importance. You guys are looking at this like some kinda Cosby family dynamic. These primarchs were created to lead armies and possibly die which is apart of war.While the Emperor does have paternal inclinations toward them, I wouldn't say like any good commander if your troops got out of line or endangered a mission of the utmost importance you wouldn't sanction them. I'm saying the Emperor is capable of anything as his sons were created to run armies, not hug. Everyone is trying to keep this peaceful image of the Emperor and that he was forced to do terrible things for the greater good. That's bullshit. The entire heresy could have been avoided and to be honest it's all his fault.
> 
> 
> Magnus- He gave him a legion of sons suffering from mutations. He could have helped but who knows.
> ...


The emp didn't create the primarchs to battle until they died. He created them to be immortal warrior generals of the Imperium. That's why created the Astartes. They were supposed to fight until they died. The primarchs were supposed to lead them forever.

And you assume to think thoes of us who disagree with your point of view think the Emperor is some sort of benevolent father figure, which is just not the case. He was a prick, a bad "father" and somewhat of a idiot, but there is a big difference between that and someone who kills his sons willy nilly.

And what makes you think Magnus would have been executed? All he did was mess up the human made section of the web way. Horus fractured the entire imperium, turned to chaos corrupting half his sons, killed Sang and indirectly killed ferrus and the emp was still not ready to kill him right away. 

While he may not have a mug that says "worlds best dad" he did have emotional investments in his progeny and has never shown that he was willing to easily cast them aside.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Dead Blue Clown is the author of the book btw, just to let you know


neat... then those questions go double for him.

Also i'm glad i said his stuff was clever ha ha.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> While the Emperor does have paternal inclinations toward them, I wouldn't say like any good commander if your troops got out of line or endangered a mission of the utmost importance you wouldn't sanction them.


Um, he was willing to sanction them. He has repeatedly shown himself to be willing and able to sanction, reprimand and punish his sons. What he hasn't shown the will/desire to do is *kill* them. There is a rather drastic difference there. 



> I'm saying the Emperor is capable of anything as his sons were created to run armies, not hug. Everyone is trying to keep this peaceful image of the Emperor and that he was forced to do terrible things for the greater good. That's bullshit. The entire heresy could have been avoided and to be honest it's all his fault.


I like this part. You say that they weren't created to hug but then suggest that he should've hugged them.



> If you want to believe the Emperor didn't kill his sons go ahead.


There's no evidence that he had any of them killed, aside from Curze and we don't really no when that order was issued or who did it.



> Look at what's been shown he's capable of the lies, deceit, and bloodshed. They were his sons, but in truth I do believe they were more a means to an end. When those means didn't work out he got rid of them in my opnion.


Lies, deceit and bloodshed are not the same as murdering a Primarch, this appears to be where the Emperor draws the line. Whether he needed them or loved them is irrelevant. All that's important is that his actions have repeatedly shown that he is not willing to kill the Primarchs.



> Magnsu IMO was being brought in for consorting with the Chaos Gods, breaking the NIkkea ruling, and his legion being mutants. What do you think would have happened to him? A " You've been a bad boy?"


How about "You gorram idiot! Why you gotta go breakin my webway for? Now this is happenin, that's right you're gonna sit in that chair and *think* about what you've done. And you ain't never get up again, [email protected]$$." Anyway, I've discussed my opinions on what the Emperor intended for Magnus on another thread so I'm not going to repeat them here.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Believe what you want. Whatever happened to the 2 primarchs that aren't spoken of anymore here are the facts. They aren't spoken of because the Emperor doesn't want them spoken of. Whatever happened to them, it's irrefutable that the Emperor decree,whatever it was, is the reason they aren't around anymore. I wasn't insinuating anyone needing a hug. I was saying he created Generals and soldiers. So they are obviously created for war and in war people die. If he wanted heirs and real sons he would have created them. He instead me 20 generals to lead armies. So at a level he was prepared for them to sacrifice themselves if necessary for the imperium. I'm not saying intentional but they were made to be in harms way. Anyone capable of lies and deceit on the scale the Emp was is capable of anything. That benevolent crap was for show. He did what he did for his own purposes and it blew up in his face. Back to my original point, he created these beings and then created a failsafe in case they ever got out of line, Leman Russ. So far it hasn't been insinuated anyone else was close to his executioner title. Oh by the way, if you look up the noun of sanction it means a threatened penalty for disobeying a law or rule. So that could mean anything from getting ball tapped to beheaded.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> He created these beings and then created a failsafe in case they ever got out of line, Leman Russ. So far it hasn't been insinuated anyone else was close to his executioner title.


And yet the Emperor has never ordered the execution of a primarch, even when they did get out of hand. 

The only piece of evedence you have to support your theory of russ being ordered to kill the 2 missing primarchs is you think the Emperor is a douchebag... which he is. But he is a douchebag who who empirically never orders his sons to be killed outright, and certainly not before yelling at them first.

He ordered Magnus be brought in so that he could reprimand him, not killed. Horus made the order to kill Magnus, an order which Russ failed to carry out, making him a failure of an executioner. 

This is of course after Russ tried to reason with Magnus... a strange quality for an executioner. 

So far it seems Russ is not a great executioner and not a great diplomat.

Russ also fought Lion to a stand still. Why would the emperors mighty executioner have such trouble dealing with the individuals he is supposed to execute if the time comes?

If Russ was indeed meant to be the Emperors Executioner i think we can chalk it up to yet another of the Big E's epic fails.

Freaking Gulliman has a higher success rate at killing other primarchs that Russ.

Gulliman's maybe 1 > Russ' 0




> Oh by the way, if you look up the noun of sanction it means a threatened penalty for disobeying a law or rule. So that could mean anything from getting ball tapped to beheaded.


Perhaps Russ just punched the 2 missing primarchs in the genitals and brought them to Terra to answer to the Emp. That sounds much more believable as again there is absolutely zero precedence for the Emp ordering the death of a primarch.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

That would be hilarious. The HORUS HERESY: THE Wolf TAP. 

synopsis: Before the heresy began, the executioner was faced with his most dangerous mission. Ball tap his two out of line brothers. Utilizing techiniques like " hey look at this horse bite on my shoulder" and getting them to be the Y in YMCA. Can he impact the genitals of traitors and bring them to justice.

Honestly I can see why you don't think he did but the Emperor is still the ruler of the Imperium. The Primarch's, while his sons, are still military commanders under his rule.In a family I can see (unless your in the mafia) why it's hard to see the Emperor killing his sons. In a military command where your son has consorted with the manifestations anathema to you and your imperium, disobeyed an direct order, and lead his legion to being in thrall to Chaos I think your beyond a reprimand. You forget that the reprimand was the Nikkea ruling. That was the Emperor listening to Magnus's claim of being in control and telling him to knock it all off. He disobeyed and it was found that he'd already sold his soul or warp presence to Tzeentch. In all honesty the best thing that could have happened to a loyal Magnus is the Emperor's Peace. It was either that or what he's got now.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Klaivex said:


> And yet the Emperor has never ordered the execution of a primarch, even when they did get out of hand.
> 
> The only piece of evedence you have to support your theory of russ being ordered to kill the 2 missing primarchs is you think the Emperor is a douchebag... which he is. But he is a douchebag who who empirically never orders his sons to be killed outright, and certainly not before yelling at them first.
> 
> ...


You should read _Aurelian_ :wink:


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You should read _Aurelian_ :wink:


Why, what revelations are there, put them in spoiler tags or send me a PM, because i am never going to read it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> So at a level he was prepared for them to sacrifice themselves if necessary for the imperium. I'm not saying intentional but they were made to be in harms way.


They were made to be in harms way, as in the Emperor was prepared to lose them in situations beyond his control. This is not the same as ordering them killed. The Emperor might have been willing to risk his sons but he has shown himself to be unwilling to have them executed. The only evidence that he might have wanted this is that Russ believes this is his role. Is there a reason Russ would know this? Is there any reason to believe that Russ was not as delusional in this as numerous other Primarchs have shown themselves to be in trying to understand their roles? No.



> Anyone capable of lies and deceit on the scale the Emp was is capable of anything.


This doesn't follow. Just because the Emperor was capable of lieing and manipulating doesn't mean he was willing or capable of murdering his sons. 



> Oh by the way, if you look up the noun of sanction it means a threatened penalty for disobeying a law or rule. So that could mean anything from getting ball tapped to beheaded.


Right, which is why I said that he *had* sanctioned his sons. He has threatened them and then carried out punishments. What he hasn't done is murder them. Which is what you suggested his sanctioning was.



Deadeye776 said:


> Honestly I can see why you don't think he did but the Emperor is still the ruler of the Imperium. The Primarch's, while his sons, are still military commanders under his rule.In a family I can see (unless your in the mafia) why it's hard to see the Emperor killing his sons. In a military command where your son has consorted with the manifestations anathema to you and your imperium, disobeyed an direct order, and lead his legion to being in thrall to Chaos I think your beyond a reprimand.


In a military command ordering the murder of a general is an act of absoulute last resort. Ordering the murder of one of the twenty most powerful individuals in human history, a being crucial to your plans and utterly beyond your ability to replicate, is an act of such ultimate finality that I think the Emperor would have hesitated to order it. He had designs and plans that required all of his sons and it is *shown* that he was hesitant to order any of them killed.



> You forget that the reprimand was the Nikkea ruling.


Acutally no. Nikea was were the Emperor ruled psykic powers and sorcery to be illegal and declared the punishment for breaking this rule. Up until that point Magnus had not been doing anything illegal and thus had done nothing that needed punishment. He was sent home because his legion was going to need to be reinvented to take these new rules into account, not as punishment for a crime. The sanction comes at the hands of Russ and was to be bringing Magnus to the Emperor so that the Emperor could decree his punishment.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> Why, what revelations are there, put them in spoiler tags or send me a PM, because i am never going to read it.


Agreed... i don't have the time or money to get it right now.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok spoiler for _Aurelian_ concerning Lorgar and Guilliman:



It's shown that if Lorgar goes to Calth instead of to Terra, he will defeat and kill Guilliman.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Ok spoiler for _Aurelian_ concerning Lorgar and Guilliman:
> 
> 
> 
> It's shown that if Lorgar goes to Calth instead of to Terra, he will defeat and kill Guilliman.


How is he shown this? Is it through the powers of the warp/chaos?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Klaivex said:


> How is he shown this? Is it through the powers of the warp/chaos?




He's told and shown it by a greater daemon that usually can only tell one truth and one lie HOWEVER on this occasion the gods have bound him to give him a choices of truths, he either fights at calth and defeats guilliman but loses the war or he goes to Terra to fight. This is a daemon of Tzeentch however and can see many strands, but there's particular emphasis on this choice he's giving Lorgar as the gods have bound him to speak only the truth.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

interesting... strange... but interesting. I kind of wish he had chosen the first option. It would have been funny.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The only reason they had the Nikkea ruling is because the Primarchs brought evidence that the Thousand Sons were going to far with their warp craft. Specifically Russ,Mortarion, and I forgot the other guy. Look at Prospero Burns. When the Emperor made his ruling the sheer force of it had Magnus pinned in his seat. I took this as he was addressing him personally with force. He outlawed warp practices after the Primarchs presented their evidence. He did the same thing with Lorgar. The next step past that was sanction. I'm going to drop this because we are going in circles with it being a matter of opinion. The only way to really settle this debate is for us to find out what the Emperor's orders concerning his two missing sons were to Russ. Also about your Aurelian spoiler. I could care less who did "it" to you know who. All I care is that he's not around anymore. They could have said " An then a light appeared and when it cleared Sailor Moon stood before 'name redacted' and deep down he knew it would be his end as she preceded to dominate him as if it were a 5 year old child vs Angraath the Unbound.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Also I just thought of something. I guess when he becomes a daemon prince or begins to Lorgar is pretty much unstoppable. Now the other traitors haven't gotten hooked up yet but they are pretty much not on his level until they get their promotions as well. As things stand now (obviously Horus became more powerful to take on the Emperor) who is the most powerful daemon primarch?


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Angron is the most powerful daemon primarch IN CLOSE COMBAT. Otherwise, i think the overall power level goes to Magnus, though with that said, i think Angron would rape him up the bum due to his immunity to sorcery.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lorgar becomes the chosen of the chaos pantheon, he has more invested in him than anyone bar Horus.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I figured Angron would take it close with his khorne patronage but I think Fulgrim would give him a run for his money. The Lord of Shadows would be a good matchup for him.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lorgar is a lot more powerful than you give him credit for, you should read my little summary of _Aurelian_ to find out if you're not interested in reading the actual book.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

but at the end of the first heretic

lorgar gets friggin whipped by corax, which is why i thought he was weaker in CC, because if he is weak before he cannot possibly be better in CC than the likes of Angron once he is daemonified


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It is after Istaavan and his fight with Corax where Lorgar is spiritually and physically awakened.

In Aurelian you see Lorgar reborn and thus he becomes essentially a new person brimming with confidence in himself whereas previously he was very timid and passive.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It is after Istaavan and his fight with Corax where Lorgar is spiritually and physically awakened.


I have yet to read Aurelian but i did glance over a summary and based on that persons perspective:



Lorgar is told that he can not win in a fight with Corax


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Apparently Lorgar second ball drops when he get his chaos contract signed. I still say if he would have lived the sickest daemon primarch would have been the Night Haunter.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> Apparently Lorgar second ball drops when he get his chaos contract signed. I still say if he would have lived the sickest daemon primarch would have been the Night Haunter.


I've always thought that if the Night Haunter lived he'd have turned down Princehood. Just my take on it


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No one can turn away a gift from the Chaos powers.

It's either you take it or they force it on you. 

I just can't imagine one of them saying 'oh ok maybe you'll change your mind later.'


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> No one can turn away a gift from the Chaos powers.
> 
> It's either you take it or they force it on you.
> 
> I just can't imagine one of them saying 'oh ok maybe you'll change your mind later.'


 
if you don't actively enter a pact with them, why should you not be able to refuse thier gifts. To me something like ascending to become a daemon is something you have to actively seek out. Thats always how i've viewed chaos.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Primarchs are beings the Chaos powers have invested a lot in and have been watching with a keen eye since day one.

So it's different I would imagine.

And you can't refuse Khorne if he decides to make you a Daemon Prince for whatever reason. 

I don't think the Primarchs actively sought out Daemonhood, it just happened to them because of all they achieved and because again of how much the Chaos powers invested in them.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Primarchs are beings the Chaos powers have invested a lot in and have been watching with a keen eye since day one.
> 
> So it's different I would imagine.
> 
> ...


Thats a relevant viewpoint, and probably more valid than mine. I just like mine because I feel like, it dovetails nicely with 30k's imperial truth.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> No one can turn away a gift from the Chaos powers.
> 
> It's either you take it or they force it on you.


Except that Abaddon has. If he, a mere space marine, can turn down all four gods whilst still actively working for them then I have no problem believing that a Primarch who actively doesn't like the Gods could.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong but it's stated that it is _ believed_ that he has turned down their offers.

And I have never considered the chaos powers as entities you could reason with.

The embodiments of rage, pride and deceit do not strike me as figures that would be content with a mere mortal deciding when he wants to accept their gifts.

But I suppose that were it to be true, I would look at the Chaos powers in a new light and my admiration for Abaddon's character would increase.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but it's stated that it is _believed_ that he has turned down their offers.


Actually I suppose that is correct. I don't really see any reason why thye wouldn't have tried to raise him, certainly not if they intended to raise Curze.



> And I have never considered the chaos powers as entities you could reason with.
> 
> The embodiments of rage, pride and deceit do not strike me as figures that would be content with a mere mortal deciding when he wants to accept their gifts.


Reasoning doesn't really come into it but it does seem that you have to accept or want their gifts on some level. Many Imperial commanders do things that the Gods would enjoy but are never rewarded for it. And looking at _Lord of the Night_ Zso is able to kick the Gods out of his head once he decides that he doesn't need/want their help.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You can turn down the Gods. The Emperor did it. Space marines did it. Eldar do it. It's not impossible. Thing is they can also get you through entrapment. Magnus and his situation where he doesn't realize till it's to late is a great situation. Usually they try to entice you with godlike power or the create situations where they are your only viable option.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor turned down the Chaos powers???

lolwut


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

"They don't share power." Those were his words to Horus when they meet on his battle barge. I took this as pretty much he came to see their true nature and that the only way to work with them was to serve them. Also the Chaos Gods said he reneged on a deal. The Gods can be told to go play with themselves and it doesn't take you being an ultra powerful demigod to do it. The Night Lord prophet Talos has done it as well in the series. Also Alaric of the Grey Knights turned down the gods in the eye of terror after the daemon made him an offer after watching his gladiator fights.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They turned down daemons, not the Chaos powers themselves. Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzentech probably don't even know the characters you mentioned exist.

And I don't get the quote you are referring to and how it relates to the Emperor turning them down. 

The Emperor allegedly _ tricked _ the Chaos powers if that is what you mean.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> "They don't share power." Those were his words to Horus when they meet on his battle barge. I took this as pretty much he came to see their true nature and that the only way to work with them was to serve them. Also the Chaos Gods said he reneged on a deal.


It has never been suggested that the Emperor chose to serve the Gods or saw this as the only way to deal with them. My interpretation is that the Emperor funnelled warp power into the Primarchs which the Gods took to be them lending some power but not that there was ever any actual official deal set out in writing. Further, it is rediculous to suggest that the Gods would attempt to empower the Emperor as he was anthema to them.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> It has never been suggested that the Emperor chose to serve the Gods or saw this as the only way to deal with them. My interpretation is that the Emperor funnelled warp power into the Primarchs which the Gods took to be them lending some power but not that there was ever any actual official deal set out in writing. Further, it is rediculous to suggest that the Gods would attempt to empower the Emperor as he was anthema to them.


 
*Spoiler*






In First heretic, the Primarchs capsules, are covered in writing that can be construed as prayers to the ruinous powers.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Can you link the page number/exact phrase so I can control + F it?

edit- read through the part with the pods again, did not come across any mention of script on the hulls.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Can you link the page number/exact phrase so I can control + F it?
> 
> edit- read through the part with the pods again, did not come across any mention of script on the hulls.


 
I'll try to hunt down my copy tonight and give a page number.

Edit: It's where Argel Tal is discussing with everyone how they can read the script on the pods. I'll be more specific this evening.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

mob16151 said:


> In First heretic, the Primarchs capsules, are covered in writing that can be construed as prayers to the ruinous powers.


Prayers, wards, bindings, handling instructions, they could be construed as almost anything (I don't recall Tal actually translating them). The words could mean just about anything. I never said that the Emperor didn't use warp power in the Primarchs, that's all but stated, however I highly doubt that he was a servent of the Gods. Inscribing runes that were likely designed to draw and funnel the warp into reality would most likely be necessary for such a procedure but that isn't really worship and it certainly isn't servitude.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ahh found it.



"Argel Tal couldn’t keep from laughing. ‘The Emperor that denies all forms of divinity shaped his own sons with the blessings of forgotten gods. Prayers and sorcery are written upon their gestation pods. This is the most glorious madness" 


I wouldn't say they are prayers like Argel Tal believes they are but sorcery? I suppose so.

I still have not found an answer as to why the Chaos powers require rituals and prayer words in order to bestow their followers with power other than just to provide readers with an element of fantasy.

The Chaos powers are not the only entities in the Warp but simply the most dominant and so they control a vast portion of it but I wouldn't say they have absolute dominion over the entirety of it. 

Meh. I think CoTe needs to be answer this. /performs ritual of summoning

*on another note, is it just me or does Heresy Online crash a lot lately?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think it's because they need emotions and focus on them to empower their gift of power.

*Yep, but Jez knows about it*


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Prayers, wards, bindings, handling instructions, they could be construed as almost anything (I don't recall Tal actually translating them). The words could mean just about anything. I never said that the Emperor didn't use warp power in the Primarchs, that's all but stated, however I highly doubt that he was a servent of the Gods. Inscribing runes that were likely designed to draw and funnel the warp into reality would most likely be necessary for such a procedure but that isn't really worship and it certainly isn't servitude.


 
Thats why I said construed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Rems said:


> Really though this thread seems to have developed into whose fanboys can shout the loudest.


As these threads always do, hence why I generally avoid them. I will say though so that all these examples people are citing as evidence as to why Primarch A is better than Primarch B (Lion/Russ, Guilliman/Lorgar, Curze/Dorn et cetera) are utterly worthless and cannot be used as evidence. 

There is no strict heirarchy in terms of Primarch fighting capabilities. It all entirely depends on circumstance: Was it a duel, sparring match, fight to the death, brawl, fight in which one party had doubts or was holding back? Was there an element of surprise? Were both parties armed and armoured? Was it in the heart of a battle/war where multiple external factors were relevant, such as fatigue or involvement of third parties? The list of relevant questions is near-endless and you simply can't remove the above factors from any fights the Primarchs were ever involved in, therefore you cannot really claim with any certainty that Primarch X was undoubtedly the greatest in close-combat and would beat all the others. It all depends on circumstance. I believe that any Primarch could have beaten any other. 

Magnus was the most powerful. Horus was the greatest. Thats about all there is. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> I still have not found an answer as to why the Chaos powers require rituals and prayer words in order to bestow their followers with power other than just to provide readers with an element of fantasy.
> 
> Meh. I think CoTe needs to be answer this. /performs ritual of summoning


I think generally it goes hand-in-hand with all warp related things. Specific rituals (which to mortals seem like strange and mysterious rites/prayers) are required in order to utilise warp energy in specifc ways or to break down the barrier between reality and unreality. Its just the way things are. I think you are right though, providing readers with an element of fantasy is most likely an important element in that question.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I still have not found an answer as to why the Chaos powers require rituals and prayer words in order to bestow their followers with power other than just to provide readers with an element of fantasy.


My guess would be that the runes used have some sort of resonance in the warp, or the barrier, and that by combining them in a certain pattern you can cause certain types of breaches or manipulations of the energy in the warp. Because the effect is poorly understood the resonance patterns are commonly construed as 'runes' and given religious significance. This is not unlike how some forms of early medicine and science were construed as holy rites. 



> The Chaos powers are not the only entities in the Warp but simply the most dominant and so they control a vast portion of it but I wouldn't say they have absolute dominion over the entirety of it.


While the doubtless don't have complete dominion I have no doubt that they think they do, or feel that they should. So while the Emperor may well have been drawing power from other regions/powers I think the arrogance of the Gods would lead them to believe he had stolen it from them. Also, given that the warp is all sort of interconnected it's possible that the Gods do in fact exist simultaneously in every single point in time and space within it. This kind of thinking tends to lead to madness however, so I'm gonna stop.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the Sun is the best planet. Say what you will, if the Sun goes out, we're all screwed.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

jaysen said:


> I think the Sun is the best planet. Say what you will, if the Sun goes out, we're all screwed.


Unfortunetely not only is this off-topic, it's also wrong. The Sun is not a planet, it's a star. Earth clearly kicks all other planets asses, I mean just look at the way it manhandled Mars in that fight that they so totally had.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Apparently, you are not a Saturday Night Live fan. It's meant to show the uselessness of this arguement about which Primarch can kick the others' tails. For one thing, hand to hand combat is not definitive. Circumstances come into play, health, mental state, experience, luck, all are factors.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

jaysen said:


> Apparently, you are not a Saturday Night Live fan. It's meant to show the uselessness of this arguement about which Primarch can kick the others' tails. For one thing, hand to hand combat is not definitive. Circumstances come into play, health, mental state, experience, luck, all are factors.


He's probably not american.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

It's Angron. All the primarchs are equal or have the ability to beat each other in a straight up fight except him. He's the incredible Hulk of the primarchs. Could Russ or Magnus take him? Magnus would use sorcery and Russ would use his intellect to dissect him. However in a raw butcher melee they will both lose in close quarters to Angron.I ask a guy from games workshop. All the primarchs have the ability to beat each other.Corax could beat Angron in battle. In a straight up fight devoid of tactics or intellect and left to raw power and strength he knows Angron would kill him. I listened Raven's Flight. His explanation is pretty much spot on.


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