# Tzeentch (& Ahriman) tactics discussion (CSM)



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Hello folks,

Apart from my "tourney" list, in anticipation of the new Daemons dex, as some of you already know, I strive to make "as competitive as it gets, yet still fluffy in a sense" mono-god CSM lists, consisting of CSM units only (would be a pity to include Daemons, as the new dex is around the corner and will have to change core tactics again).

To be honest, only Khorne and Tzeentch have presented me with trouble. I'll discuss Khorne on another topic, I'd like us to talk about Tzeentch here.

So, let's point out Tzeentch's strongest points:

1. The 2+/3++ Fistclaw Terminator Lord. This guy is an absolute killing machine, our version of "TH/SS". He can handle pretty much any Challenge, and worst case scenario is taking his killer with him. At a 180-190 price tag, he is still decently priced. An alternative is a T5 Disc Lord with Sigil, Power Fist and Lightning Claw. Lower cost and Instant Death resistance, but a 3+/3++ instead of 2+/3++, which means lowered ability to absorb high S/ high AP shots (such as Autocannons). It's up to taste and playstyle, in my opinion.

2. Ahriman. This guy, if played properly, can work wonders, either as a psychic shooting platform, or as a buffer. Plus, his Warlord trait can lead to nasty things.

3. 4++ Terminators. The unit which benefits the most in my opinion from the Mark of Tzeentch in the whole codex (after HQs). Nurgle is ok, but 2+ is already good for shrugging off small arms fire, and most AP2 weapons are above S6, so the Mark of Tzeentch offers better survivability.

I need to clarify here, that "fluffy" doesn't mean "Legion Specific". Tzeentch (and the other Gods in this perspective) are not limited to the "big" legions. Not all armies of Tzeentch are Thousand Sons, and not all armies of Khorne are World Eaters.

Personally, my Tzeentch army has the theme of a "warp ghost" army, with "Ahriman" acting as "head Necromancer", and Cultists acting as bound ghosts.

Anyways, I'd like to put some suggestions on the topic, and I would like to her your thoughts/ideas as well.

Regarding Ahriman: What unit would you put him in? Blob of Cultists? How many should do the job? Marine Squad? How would you protect him from being involved in a challenge?

Regarding his Warlord Trait: What units you think should be infiltrated?

Personally, I have a "switch army knife"-type squad in mind:
ELITES 430pts
9 Chaos Terminators
Mark of Tzeentch
3 Combi-Plasma/ Power Sword
3 Combi-Melta/ Power Axe
1 Heavy Flamer/ Power Maul
1 Combi-Flamer/Power Maul
Lightning Claw/Chainfist (Champion)
Veterans of the Long War

It's expensive, but can deal with any threat. Infiltrated right in the enemy's face, should turn attention away from the rest of the army. A squad of 5 would be cheaper and kinda do the job as well, but I feel compelled to use Sacred numbers 

The Terminator/Disc Lord will join those, making a Deathstar (and soaking up shooting hits), unless the enemy army is an assaulty one. In that case, he will join Ahriman's unit, so that he can take up a challenge.

But that's 1 unit. There is possibility of 2 more units. What unmarked/Tzeentch units would you also use? I was considering Nurgle Obliterators (well, I believe that T5 is rightful for them, as in 3.5, so I insist using that Mark even in other themed armies), which dont necessarily have to be deployed at 18", they should be deployed in whatever range they will be most effective, even if that takes them out of the deployment zone.

Many people also favor Chosen or Special Weapon Havocs. I dislike the idea of infiltrating small MEQ units (small=10 or less), just because they can be killed or assaulted easily. 


So far, we got the basic idea forming: Ahriman will be in the midfield with a unit, and infiltrate a Terminators unit, and possibly 2 more units. For Fast Attack, of course Double Dragon is the thing to use (as well as Aegis with Comms Relay).

The rest of the Troops and other slots are what troubles me though... Let's solve the "what units would be best to infiltrate" first, and let's progress to a most viable Tzeentch build.


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

To summarize a bit, in this topic I am approaching the following tactic:

-Ahriman with a unit in the midfield (what unit should that be?)

-D3 units infiltrate in the enemy's face. 1 of those units, I'm suggesting it's Terminators, due to their survivability and ability to deal damage. The key here is what would the other 2 candidate units be. It should be units which "don't mind" if they are not infiltrated and can perform equally well if deployed normally. That's why Obliterators are what I can think of so far.

-A Chaos Lord as secondary HQ can either join Ahriman in case of an assaulty enemy (to handle challenges), or the Terminators.

-2 Heldrakes can provide adequate additional anti Infantry/MEQ support. What else might add to such a list? Keep in mind that with D3 units right in the enemy's face, and Ahriman in the midfield, perhaps some rearguard units must be considered to protect rear objectives.

-An Aegis Defense Line with Comms Relay sounds mandatory, since having more control on when the Heldrakes and other possible Reserves arrive feels better than a quad-gun.

-Keep in mind that 6th meta is messed up, I know it will lack anti-air, but CSM are not really built for anti-air. It's better to ignore fliers altogether, or, if it's too dire, Vector Strike them situationally with the Drakes.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

my feeling on Tzeentch

Ahriman is overcosted and just not as good as generic Sorc w/MoT.

Lords with MoT...i feel that Huron is a good "counts as" for the feel of an army (because of the hymadra(?))

Tsons; nice but i feel that they are over priced and just not as efficient as regular CSMs.

Cultists; good, i tend to not give them any upgrades if i am running a lord/sorc with them and use them as a board control unit.

CSMs; i still woundnt take MoT on these guys, it doesnt do anything "amazing" for them.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Don't overlook the much maligned Warp Talons in a Tzeentch list. The MoT makes them 3+/4++ and they make a good bubble wrap/escort unit for a Sorcerer on a Disc and with the right psychic support will get into CC and tear stuff up.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I have been designing and playing with a tzeentch-only army the past few weeks, with Thousand Sons and tzeentch daemon allies. So I will probably give you some input later tonight about the CSM side and what I have been learning about each unit. 

But in short: Ahriman is expensive, but I feel if you use him in the right list in the right way he is worth it. 
As for Thousand Sons - yes, they are also expensive, but again if you use them right you can make them worth your while. 
In combination: If you are smart with psychic powers you can give some awesome buffs to the 1ksons squads, coupled with D3 1ksons infiltrating onto objectives into cover suddenly Ahriman will seem worth the points cost. 
For example, you have 3 rolls on telepathy so have a 50% chance of rolling for the power that gives a unit a stealth and shrouded. This is extremely useful for Thousand Sons on objectives in cover (if you are smart you will put 1 objective in cover before the game begins), as they have a potential 2+ cover save, plus a 4+ invulnerable save, making them an absolute bitch to remove to say the least. 
Indeed even without this psychic power trickery they are quite hard to remove. Their only weakness is saturation of small arms fire (they die like normal marines) and assault (though lack of overwatch isnt as much of an issue as it seems on paper). Which is why you have to handle them with care until late game, using units to screen them is a good idea (cultists, screamers, bikers etc). But being a Tzeentch army you wont be assaulting anyway (otherwise you have picked the wrong army). 

Will elaborate more later.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Thousand Sons:
Strengths: Excellent objective holders, can shrug off high ap weapons and pie plates very well with 4++, have excellent MEQ abilities with ap3 boltguns, can be considerably buffed with Ahriman casting telepathy powers (2+ cover save please...). 
Weaknesses: Will die to small arms fire like normal MEQ, cannot overwatch, very average in CC, lack mobility, fairly pricey.

Tactics: Need to be used with great care, extremely unforgiving. It's cool to infiltrate them onto objectives and have other units that can screen them. But you can also walk them onto objectives too if needs be (they can soak up long range AT and pie plates, it's arguably what they are best at).
You need to have other units in your list that can work in synergy with them. Therefore, they are not a wise choice in EVERY list. You have to be willing to build part of your list around them. 
These other units need to be able to make up for the 1ksons weaknesses i.e protecting them from small arms fire and assaults. You don't have to worry about high ap weapons or pie plates because they can soak up this type of damage. So don't worry too much about these units. 
Unfortunately I cannot give advice on what CSM can fulfil the screening role, as I am using tzeentch Daemons to do this instead. I am finding Flamers of Tzeentch and Screamers can screen them really well. Flamers can arguably do this better because they can template an assaulty squad that threatens the 1ksons, and then usually have enough to overwatch any survivors and eat their charge and come out on top. 
Chaos cultists can probably be used as a cheap meat shield to screen 1ksons, though I haven't tried this yet. In theory it could work, perhaps with Ahriman or a tzeencth sorc leading them or nearby to increase their survivability and tar pit the threats. 
If you are using termies, perhaps you can gear them out in an assaulty role to protect the 1ksons. 

Either way, once (or if) you have whittled out the threats enough, they should survive. Late game, their ap3 boltguns become especially useful when they are planted on objectives and the enemy is sending troops to try to contest and then push you off - rapid firing those ap3 bolters is going to put a dent in any MEQ squads. The only thing you will have trouble with is TEQ, which you need to deal with with another unit. 

Hopefully this helps. I am no expert yet and still experimenting though. And with new Daemons codex out soon a lot of this will be redundant soon anyway.


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