# Most improved & gimped units of 6th Edition



## fuzzawakka (Nov 16, 2008)

Now that 6th edition is been out for a bit. If you guys could list units that got the shaft and units that got improved quite a bit. I will start off with most improved as
Vendettas
Special units that you can upgrade in a squad with a better armor save
Terminators

Got the shaft
Plague bearers (no more going to ground) 5+ FNP
Scouts outflanking, specifically space wolf scouts as they no longer can assault right away


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I think these sorts of things need to be quantified honestly. Just slapping "nerf" or "OP" on something is easy if you don't have to explain why.

The Exorcist got a LOT better. With people being forced to pen it to have a chance to stop it from shooting, the ability to move 12" and then snap fire (oh, hai flyers!) and AP1 giving +2 on the Pen chart this thing is now capable of MURDERING vehicles, something it wasn't bad at before, but is a lot better at now.

On the flip side the Heavy Flamer Immolator is now worse than ever since you can't move past 6" without losing the ability to fire the Heavy Flamer. It really needs the Torrent Rule or the Fast rule with the Heavy Flamer to make up that high points cost, and it has neither.


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## CattleBruiser (Sep 3, 2011)

This might not be the place to post this, but i feel like ap1 hasn't gotten any better this edition. beforehand when a 5 and 6 were both destroyed, ap1 only needed a 4+ to destroy a vehicle. Now they still need a 4+ because only a 6 is destroyed.

Although, i feel as though ap3+ have gotten a nerf on vehicle killing (except for ap-, which always needed a 6)


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

*Gimped:*
Stealers- no more outflank assault makes them bolter bait... expensive bolter bait at that.

Ymgarls- same reasons, but at leats a 4+ save might hold up a little longer.

Howling Banshees- ok, they were shit before, but now they get hit by the reduction in power weapons, fleet and area terrain they'll be even worse then ever. I'm not sure why anyone would take them over scorpions.


*Improved:*
All fliers... 

Necrons- gauss is horrendous against vehicles, tesla is immense when disembarking fast moving transports or overwatching, harbingers of transmogrification with seismic crucibles are almost impossible to assault (tremor stave means enemies will be in difficult terrain and crucible gives -D3"... so that's roll 3D6, pick the lowest 2 and lose D3. Gives an average of a 3-4" charge).... .... that's all before we get onto almost all of their vehicles suddenly getting 5+ cover saves for moving and characters becoming utterly unsurpassed with 2+/3++ protecting whole units from enemy shooting and MSS making them favorites over _anything_ in a challenge.

Barrage Weapons- quite nasty before, now totally lethal. I expect any army that can field decent barrage weapons to take them as an auto-choice. I'm using griffons and will soon take mortars too... the first is lethal and I'm expecting the same outta the second.



BUT... for the prize of most improved single unit you simple can't overlook one absolute modelling classic: loved by few, hated by any that have ever assembled one... the humble _Thunderfire Cannon_.

In 5th the thunderfire was a supreme glass hammer: able to cut down huge swathes of enemy but never expected to live through the first enemy shooting phase. Well in 6th its utterly horrendous, with the same offensive abilities but now, instead of being AV10 with no cover (or very difficult) and onyl a glance needing to kill it its T7 2W with 3+ save and not only does it get a cover save but since you are fielding a techmarine chances are you'll upgrade its cover, giving a likely 3+ cover save to boot.
I've only faced one so far in 6th... and trust me when I say that no other single unit scares me quite so much (except possible a Leman Russ Executioner).

EDIT- @CattleBruiser: you're right. The damage table is the same except Ap3-6 is now equivalent to AP-.... other then that the only difference with 5th is that 'destroyed' results would now explode instead. I don't know why they didn't just keep the old table and make AP3-6 -1 on the roll... but it would have been simpler.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

All artillery got a nice boost, which was sorely needed since no one would ever take them before.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

CattleBruiser said:


> This might not be the place to post this, but i feel like ap1 hasn't gotten any better this edition. beforehand when a 5 and 6 were both destroyed, ap1 only needed a 4+ to destroy a vehicle. Now they still need a 4+ because only a 6 is destroyed.
> 
> Although, i feel as though ap3+ have gotten a nerf on vehicle killing (except for ap-, which always needed a 6)


On a 1 you Stun, on a 2-3 you Weapon Destroy and on a 4+ it explodes. That's a 50% to kill, and even if you miss that you make the tank less effective while taking a hull point off as well.

Sure it's not uber awesome sauce, but it's still good, and in some respects better because you can't glance and roll on the chart so you'll never shake a vehicle with AP1 weapons.

@Tim/Steve - nice point on the Thunderfire Cannon. And now that's it's Finecast it's more likely to actually see the table.

Another one for the improved section: Squadrons. No longer is getting an Immobilized Result going to nuke a tank for free. I'm sure the Guard players love this since most of their tanks can hit you without moving from the rear board edge anyways.


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## kain1989 (Dec 1, 2009)

I'd say the most nerfed of any units that I know of are close combat eldar units. except for harlequins which are still nasty.

Howling banshees are only ap 3, were barely worth it last edition, but with never being able to assault from a wave serpent, they are practically useless.

striking scorpions were nerfed as well since they can't outflank and assault. they weren't wacked with the nerf bat as hard since they are more survivable.

A unit that has greatly benefitted from the new rules are meganobs. Now they can finally wade through most things with out breaking a sweat. the only problem with them is I see more powerfists in my local area.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

with the bonuses to tanks, squadrons and blast weapons, i would think that squadrons of 3 LRBT will be very good


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## OMNOMNOMIVORE (May 31, 2012)

fuzzawakka said:


> Plague bearers (no more going to ground) 5+ FNP



plaguebearers did get the FnP reduction up the ass at first glance, but they now get it against more things, and it's all the sweeter when you get epidemius's tally up for the 3+. they can also take chaos marines as allies to make this easier with shooting capabilities. as for going to ground, why would you? they are a tarpit, and making them unable to assault or attack back is doing it wrong.

the most major buff i have seen is that sanguinary guard NO LONGER SUCK!!! the 2+ armour and PW changes means that they wont die easily to some weaboo sergeant with a power weapon, and jump packs are even better now. also, feel no pain has the ability to make them pseudo flying terminators unless they are getting shot with S8+.

mephiston is still aweshum, as even though fleet isnt as great, and he is only AP3 (cant they just make him an MC?(please)), psychic powers got amazing, and having no invuln isnt as important when a 2+ armour is so much better. and hes T6 with 5 wounds, which he has a 33% chance of being able to regenerate if he rolls 3 times on biomancy-and you had better do that, cuz mephiston+iron arm, warp speed, and life leech=OMFGWTFBBQPWNED

as for nerfs...

death company dreadnoughts arent as great, because ignoring shakens and stuns doesnt matter much when glances don't inflict them, and instead rip you apart.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, squadrons of Leman Russ are quite an attractive thought- a fully decked out executioner is pretty expensive and will be target number 1 for the enemy, but is a lot more survivable if you just buy another LRBT to shove in front of it and take all the hits first...
... or buy 3 LRs and spiral them so that whatever direction the enemy comes from they'll be facing AV14.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

From the 5-6 games I have played I got a feeling that certain types of units got nerfs/boasts.

Nerfs
-Dedicated low armor save assault troops are now 15-20% over coasted with the only advantage being a random chance to make ultra long distance charges of 18". 
-Assault mech lists. (Which were never really the problem with mech lists as the drive by lists of the guard and space marines are perfectly untouched in most cases).
-Low armor save vehicles, and DE vehicles in general.


Boasts (Sometimes unjustified boasts.
-Units that can spam assault weapons (I killed vect in a CC just because my chosen unit with 2 flamers and 3 plasma guns killed his escort in a single turn of overwatch).
-Any dedicated shooting army.
-Any flyer as only a hand full of armies can have reliable anti-air power (One gun with the sky fire rule is not enough against necrons or even DE/guard/C:SM for that matter.
-Units that can have mixed saves (The thundershield phenomena Sargent)

If the inherent power balance of the game is going to be restored for competitive play I expect dedicated low save units to see a 1-2 point drop across the board, and every army to get some kind of reliable anti-air unit. Which seems to be inline with some of the rumors floating around about the upcoming CSM army (Berzerkers getting rage and possibly bolters but going down 1-2 points.)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm not sure if I'd trade Mephy's wings and Sanguine Sword for random main book powers (unleash rage is kind of shit though, so yeah)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Sternguard have had a good buff in 6th. The ability to spam combi-flamers and meltas make them very stern at guarding now.

To my mind the big winners in my armies are flamers for the ability to really shut down an assault before it happens sometimes.

I have 3 times now been able to tear apart a unit with overwatch only to see them fail to make the charge and be cleaned up in the next shooting phase.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Lots of units have got some major benefits in this edition. Some that are highlighted are:

Swarmlord. A Swarmlord (Or indeed any Hive Tyrant using Biomancy) can be so much more survivable when using Iron Arm on itself. Possibly with endurance as well.

Farseers. Farseers became immensly good value as the runes of warding still work the same way whilst psychic hoods got worse. I seem them or Njal led Space Wolves as being best anti psykers now.

Flamers of Tzeentch. The pyromaniacal badboys became cheaper in points cost, still have AP2 breath of chaos added with 2 wounds each and the added bonus of each one generating D3 hits on overwatch makes larger units of them viable but also a scary prospect to charge.

Eldar Pathfinders. Still able to gain a 2+ cover save in most places of terrain but also they get AP1 hits on a 5 or 6. Combine with precision fire means Eldar Pathfinders who roll 6's to hit not only get to choose who takes a round but who takes an AP1 round to the face!

Some units have got a lot worse though...

Eldar vehicles. Have suddenly found themselves VERY vulnerable and overcosted. Before they could rely on pixie tricks suchas holo-fields to ride out shooting but now it only takes 3 glancing hits to wreck one and there is nothing I can do to stop it really.

Psychic hoods. Once able to put an end to many psychic shenanigans they only have a small effect now and can't stop blessings either (Which is strange since I don't think enemies would just let units improving themselves psychically just go by without doing anything about it).

Lightning Claw armed Terminators. Now really little point taking them over TH's because they are less durable and not even a threat to 2+ armour save units now.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Buffed:
DA librarians: so I can have a crappy unreliable flamethrower and a one-off invun.... Or divination? Hm.....
Sternguard: IMO the best anti-infantry shooting outside of Heavy Support. And with Kantor, they're scoring.
Yes please.

Nerfed:
Land speeders and dreadnoughts.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

I also think that humble ranked up infantry is more effective earlier (large guard blobs love this), as this makes MOAR DAKKA with the help of an order EARLIER than in 5th, with the potential of more destruction prior to assault.

Sternguard have been buffed, as have tactical terminators - even they're better than GK Paladins and GKTs which were kings in last edition due to high Init PWs. Anything with a high quantity of flamers (or combis) will do well, particularly combos such as the Flamer PCS's in Chimeras.

Any Dakka Mech builds are thankfully unscathed (if not benefitting from the reduced stunlocking).


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Thousand sons got a it nerfed, there main appeal was that you could still shoot at full range with Slow and purposeful, now everyone can shoot at full range and thousand sons cant run


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

falcoso said:


> Thousand sons got a it nerfed, there main appeal was that you could still shoot at full range with Slow and purposeful, now everyone can shoot at full range and thousand sons cant run


They also can't overwatch with those AP3 bolters. 

I think Zerks took a big hit. Furious Charge changing hit them pretty hard as part of their effectiveness was going before your average Marine.

And let us not forget the ridiculousness of using Rhinos to carry your Berzerkers. They can't assault the turn they disembark. That means a third turn charge at the very least! First turn move; second turn disembark; third turn charge, potentially. It also means the turn they get out is a free turn of shooting at them from your opponent. The three Zerks that survive the shooting aren't going to do very much especially since they strike simultaneously with freakin Marines.

Kharn also get the shaft. Now he strikes at I1. Any decent character can challenge him and kill him before he gets to attack. Or any non-decent character can go simultaneously to Kharn with a powerfist and insta-gib him.


Chosen got a nice boost with the overwatch business and new rapid fire rules. Infiltrating them with 5 flamers is going to make anyone think twice before charging. Infiltrating them with 5 plasma makes them a nice mobile fire base.

Princes got a little better with the new Psychic Powers. A winged Daemon Prince with Doombolt is only 140 points and you can trade in DB for a decent power.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

In the end, it doesn't really matter for chaos since their new codex is just around the corner. If anyone got hit hard by the FC nerf it was orks...now Guardsmen go before them...after getting over watched to pieces first. Poor humble ork boyz.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Taggerung said:


> In the end, it doesn't really matter for chaos since their new codex is just around the corner. If anyone got hit hard by the FC nerf it was orks...now Guardsmen go before them...after getting over watched to pieces first. Poor humble ork boyz.


True, but unless they make CSM rhinos assault vehicles it really doesn't help the Zerk situation. Same with Furious Charge. They would have to make Zerks base Initiative 5 to counter the nerf. Both of those things I see as very unlikely.

I'm sure the new codex will bring new close combat toys to our army, but I still miss my awesome old Berzerkers. They were why I got into 40k in the first place.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Ymgarls didn't get worse, codex trumps rulebook and the codex says they can charge from arriving I believe. I shall check that one tonight.

Repentia got better (even with the FnP drop), but Penitent Engines became awesome. 4-10 attacks on the charge, with the potential for the same again if you kill things, and _you can aim them!_ :biggrin:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> Repentia got better (even with the FnP drop), but Penitent Engines became awesome. 4-10 attacks on the charge, with the potential for the same again if you kill things, and _you can aim them!_ :biggrin:


Still don't think Penitent Engines are worth what they cost (seriously, 225 points for 3 open topped walkers with the AV value of the Rhino and only Heavy Flamers for any sort of range?), but the improvements to Rage and Squadrons has helped, as has the ability to Overwatch with all those Heavy Flamer shots (that's 6D3 S5 AP4 Auto-hits!). I DARE you to charge them. :laugh:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

AV11 isn't bad. They're pretty much immune to all basic weapons from the front and side. You want to stop them, you're using heavy weapons - which then aren't taking out your bigger tanks or shooting up your Sisters. Plus stick them behind a rhino and they're pretty much invisible until it's too late to shoot them. Also, most basic troops can't hurt them, and if they can then they can't break away and you murderise your way through the unit with your S10 double-digits of attacks until you brutalise the powerfister hiding at the back...

Sure, you can pick apart their weaknesses vs x, y and z until the cows come home, but I like to concentrate on the Awesome and just use a 35pt rhino as ablative armour.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> AV11 isn't bad. They're pretty much immune to all basic weapons from the front and side. You want to stop them, you're using heavy weapons - which then aren't taking out your bigger tanks or shooting up your Sisters. Plus stick them behind a rhino and they're pretty much invisible until it's too late to shoot them. Also, most basic troops can't hurt them, and if they can then they can't break away and you murderise your way through the unit with your S10 double-digits of attacks until you brutalise the powerfister hiding at the back...
> 
> Sure, you can pick apart their weaknesses vs x, y and z until the cows come home, but I like to concentrate on the Awesome and just use a 35pt rhino as ablative armour.


I didn't say it was all bad, I was just saying that the cost was looking pretty steep for something that has to get into combat to be awesome. I'm almost tempted to use them as a way to guard my Exorcists and hold the back line honestly.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

*Buffed: *
*One-gun tanks*, such as the Demolisher and Vindicator. No longer does one roll on the damage table cripple them, but a random gun is blown off and it's harder to destroy in one shot.
*Gun Platform tanks*, such as the Fire Prism and Leman Russ. Now un-suppressable; you will never stop a Leman Russ firing it's Battle Cannon until it's dead, which is hard to do with AV14 and 4 Hull Points.
*Large Fearless units*: Orks and Gaunts are now real roadblocks. No more taking 10 kills from combat and 8 from No Retreat! - now you don't stop until you're dead.
*Characters with big scary combat weapons* - Characters can't be singled out in Close Combat any more apart from in Challenges, which can be accepted by any Character model, and can attack when not in base-to-base contact. A Warboss in a unit of unupgraded Nobz will just kill and kill and kill until he's the last man standing, whilst the Nobz accept challenges.
*Deathstars*, or at least, some of them. Being able to re-allocate wounds on 4s and keep a couple of meat shield dudes at the front of the unit, as well as Bikes giving you flat +1 toughness for Nob Bikers, makes Paladins, Nobz and any other Character unit much stronger.
*Barrage Weapons*, but not as much as people think. Barrage still scatters like hell, and stuff like Mortars will usually allow armour saves. In addition, allocation is still as normal for Direct Fire, which is what will be used much of the time. However, I think the Colossus and other must-Indirect-Fire weapons will become slightly more popular. 

*Nerfed:*
*Assault* in general, with random charge distance and Overwatch (however minor Overwatch may be, it's annoying if they kill the one dude in your unit who was in charge range and now you're half an inch out of range), and it being much easier to kill TEQs at range than in combat due to Power Swords, Spears and Unusual Power Weapons being AP3.
*Transports*, which cannot now just absorb damage and keep on sitting there, and cannot Tank Shock onto objectives to contest on the last turn; the latter makes Falcon Punch obsolete, which wasn't a bad strategy for Eldar.
*Tyranids*, due to lack of Allies and Fortifications. It doesn't make them worse, but it doesn't help them out like it does for every other army.

Midnight


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> *Gimped:*
> In 5th the thunderfire was a supreme glass hammer: able to cut down huge swathes of enemy but never expected to live through the first enemy shooting phase. Well in 6th its utterly horrendous, with the same offensive abilities but now, instead of being AV10 with no cover (or very difficult) and onyl a glance needing to kill it its T7 2W with 3+ save and not only does it get a cover save but since you are fielding a techmarine chances are you'll upgrade its cover, giving a likely 3+ cover save to boot.
> I've only faced one so far in 6th... and trust me when I say that no other single unit scares me quite so much (except possible a Leman Russ Executioner).


Could you explain this a bit better? I don't play SM but I'm trying to help my friend out who has some Thunderfire cannons. Why are they better now than before besides the buff to blast weapons?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Could you explain this a bit better? I don't play SM but I'm trying to help my friend out who has some Thunderfire cannons. Why are they better now than before besides the buff to blast weapons?


It used to be that if you shot a Lascannon at one in the open, you killed it. If you hit the Techmarine, you killed him on a 2+. It was so, so fragile. Now, with T7 and 2 wounds, it's still fairly fragile (two Lascannons, two Meltaguns, couple of Autocannons etc. will ruin it), but it's got some hardiness to it at least. Still have the danger of just killing the 1-wound Techmarine who comes with it, but the gun itself got a lot tougher.

Midnight


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Could you explain this a bit better? I don't play SM but I'm trying to help my friend out who has some Thunderfire cannons. Why are they better now than before besides the buff to blast weapons?


Instead of being AV10 with 1 glace being enough to auto-kill it (including if it rolled a 1 when moving through terrain its now T7 2W 3+ save.
As extra bonuses it means the techmarine is also T7 (majority/higher T rules) while the gun lives but almost all wounds will be allocated against the gun anyway... which will now get a cover save for just standing in area terrain, but put it in some ruins and have the techmarine improve that piece of terrain and you have a 3+ cover save.

So before, a single lascannon hit was almost certain to kill the thunderfire now you'll likely need more then 7 (roll to wound, cover save and 2W)... and you'll still have the techmarine alive to go off, join other units and repair any vehicles.
You can still kill the techmarine if you get behind the gun or get precision shots with either characters or snipers... but with T7 2+ save (and likely 3+ cover) he's still fairly hard.



Back to seriously buffed units:

Flamer of Tzeetch- massive points cut has just sent these from awesome to uber-cheesy. Can't wait to hear the cries of anguish from anyone trying to assault a unit of 9 of these horrible things.

Screamers of Tzeentch- nothing for it but to post in list form...
- 50% point increase
- save decreased from 4++ to 5++
- vehicle attacks dropped from S8 Ap1 to S5 Ap2 (but still armourbane)
+ twice as many wounds
+ 4 times the attacks against vehicles (charging)
+ 2 times the attacks in combat (on charge- 3* off charge)
+ +1S in combat
+ AP2 in combat!!!!!
+ D3 S4 hits for each screamer that turbo boosts over an enemy
+ turbo boost after DS
+ <36" movement a turn

I loved screamers before... but now they're just ridiculous. I think my non-MC mono-tzeentch army is no longer going to be laughed at as puny, and will instead be common as muck. :angry:


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> . Which seems to be inline with some of the rumors floating around about the upcoming CSM army (Berzerkers getting rage and possibly bolters but going down 1-2 points.)


 Probably equal to Death Company, which is what they desperately need.

The point I have to agree with most. Almost unassailable without casualties due to Guass on vehicles going to take 2 HP of a walker, which they can then flee from and rip it to peices once rallied, but then you've got tesla ripping apart hordes and one of the best transport vehicles int he the form of the night scythe.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> Kharn also get the shaft. Now he strikes at I1. Any decent character can challenge him and kill him before he gets to attack. Or any non-decent character can go simultaneously to Kharn with a powerfist and insta-gib him.


You can take a Skull Champion to take the hits for him in a challenge, or Chaos Terminator Champions so he gets a larger number of 'lives' to take Challengers for him, because you can't single out ICs anymore in combat, hooray!

But still, Gorechild did get a lot worse. On the other hand, Typhus got a hell of a lot better, so you can take him instead.

Midnight


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Flame template weapons were good before. But now, they can nullify or at least punish any assaulting unit with overwatch. D3 auto hits, nuf said. Also, rapid fire weapons moving and shooting at full range brings standard troops such as tactical squads and fire warriors back into the game. And, can we say AP3 bolters moving and shooting 24" with BS 4? That makes 1000 sons and sternguard 100% better.

What got the worst nerf? Space Marine librarians with their almost useless psychic hoods.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

honestly, I'm almost happy psychic hoods got nerfed though. It went from librarians being almost mandatory for anti-psyker support to a unit that's still good and interesting, but one you can live without. It gives you more freedom of choice


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> True, but unless they make CSM rhinos assault vehicles it really doesn't help the Zerk situation. Same with Furious Charge. They would have to make Zerks base Initiative 5 to counter the nerf. Both of those things I see as very unlikely.
> 
> I'm sure the new codex will bring new close combat toys to our army, but I still miss my awesome old Berzerkers. They were why I got into 40k in the first place.


Yep looks like you will need to shove berzerkers in the new improved rumored transport landraider and suck on the 200-240pt ride ticket for doing so.

On the plus side GW seems to understand how hard dedicated assault troops got hit this edition as the current rumors say they are 2-3pts cheaper with bolters and rage. So more for less with a better ranged ability will see them through the shit storm of rhino's being useless for them. (This is a shooting edition and the only way assault troops become serviceable is to make them cheaper and deadlier so even 2-3 berzerkers or other such unit will crush entire guard units single handed)

I am just glad my dakka CSM's are looking just as deadly now, and into even the next codex. Now if they adjust points costs and what not to force CSM's into being a assault army then I will be a sad camper, as assault armies are always tactically weaker then mobile long range armies.

As to the matter of kharn, just remember that the enemy needs to send a MC or character to fight him as the look out sire will make him near invincible to power fist champs and various DE units.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

My poor, poor killa kans....

Dropping to 2 hull points is heart breaking. In fact, just about anything with 2 hull points has lost its viability in 6th edition. They're just too easy to wipe out with glancing hits. If that wasn't bad enough, the ability for marines to easily pummel them with grenades in close combat was the last nail in the coffin.

Also hurt are any expensive unit that relies on power weapons. Losing the ability to ignore 2+ armor saves has really hurt these units in the close combat phase. The biggest losers in this respect are probably both eldar armies, and khorne units in chaos daemons armies.

Not being able to assault after outflanking has made the close combat focused infiltrators/scouts/outflankers more or less useless. Ork kommandos and Tyranid genestealers especially.

Finally, not being able to hide Sgt's in units as well, both against shooting and in close combat, hurt the Imperial Guard blobs quite a bit. Filling a 30-50 man unit with several power weapons and a commissar is no longer as good an idea as it used to be. Also, in general, any unit that relies on buried Sgt-like characters got hurt quite a bit, making attached characters a more viable option, since they get a 2+ look out save.

All in all, I think the changes have been good, or at least more realistic. I only have one complaint (and I don't even play this army, so I'm hopefully impartial):

Why do they keep screwing over the poor Tyranids? 

The new codex was mediocre at best, combined with no assaulting after outflanking, combined with the fact that they're the only race not able to ally (which makes sense, but it's yet another handicap) has made the Tyranids the runt of the 40k universe. For the race that is supposed to be the most fearsome and dangerous in the galaxy, this just doesn't seem right.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

+Jump Infantry in general. They can now take armor saves against dangerous terrain, meaning you can jump them from cover to cover. Potential 24 inches of charge range, plus Hammer of Wrath. Their high mobility also makes it easier to place them for good shooting.

+Eldar Psykers. Divination and Telepathy are very good disciplines to have, and they couble them with the best psyckic defense in the game while most hoods elsewhere had their range greatly reduced.

+Artillery. Now it can pick targets inside squads more reliably than snipers. Can sit behind Aegis lines for a 4+ cover save. I have seen the future of 40K, and it is two gunlines lobbing shells at each others behind fortified lines while flyers zoom overhead!

+Everything Haywire, especially if you can take several in the same unit. Possibly overkill, though, given that vehicles took other hits.

- Transports. Unless you want to flat out straight into eemy lines to get blown up, most of them took a hit. DE transports especially can be expected to kill half the embarked troops whenever they explode, which is always, since there is no weaker explosion for open-topped results anymore.

- Sargeants/champions/etc: Able to be picked off in quite a few ways now, even if they get LOS as a save. Also, with challenges, subject to a paper/rock/scissors game of challenges they may not be able to win (or sitting out of combat and wasting points).

-Kharn, possibly Dante. Any HQ with a power axe and high-initiative, really. Fun for when they have to refuse challenges from nameless power Fist sargeants who can insta-kill them for 50 points and earn HUGE bragging rights. 

-Outflanking assault units, as has been written. Unless the table is -really- dense with LOS-blocking terrain, they mostly just deliver themselves into rapid-fire range for the enemy.


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## OMNOMNOMIVORE (May 31, 2012)

Sephyr said:


> -Kharn, possibly Dante. Any HQ with a power axe and high-initiative, really. Fun for when they have to refuse challenges from nameless power Fist sargeants who can insta-kill them for 50 points and earn HUGE bragging rights.


the rulebook says that you look to the model if the unit has a power weapon with no other special rules, and thereby since dante's axe is master crafted, it is just AP3. people willbitch about it, but still. dante actually got a boost IMO, as he makes sanguinary guards troops, and they have 2+ saves and ten point powerfists, so they became a lot better.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sephyr said:


> -Kharn, possibly Dante. Any HQ with a power axe and high-initiative, really. Fun for when they have to refuse challenges from nameless power Fist sargeants who can insta-kill them for 50 points and earn HUGE bragging rights.


The ability to step up late in a turn after making a nameless Chaos Champion or other model accept a challenge and lay the hurt on a squad and then use your high initiative to sweep them isn't good enough then?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Eldar vehicles. Have suddenly found themselves VERY vulnerable and overcosted. Before they could rely on pixie tricks suchas holo-fields to ride out shooting but now it only takes 3 glancing hits to wreck one and there is nothing I can do to stop it really.


Eldar Vehicles got comparatively better compared to a lot of armies. If you move (which you should) you get a 5+ Jink save and you're AV12/12/10 so unless you're playing against another Eldar player there's not a huge number more weapons that can dink you now that couldn't before. Fire Prisms in particular are better as it's harder to Stun lock them so you'll get to fire it much more often.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

@Luke I don't really see the 2-3 points cheaper thing helping all that much. For example if you ran an army currently with 30 Zerks, a 2-3 point reduction would only give you an extra 3-4 Zerks. Not really a huge increase in numbers.

Don't get me wrong, I'll happily take a points reduction but I think to compete it's going to need to be a lot higher than 2-3. Also Zerks with bolters?! I get balance, maybe. But it just seems wrong. Give the crazies their old chainaxes back and then they might be worth while again.

Someone who did get boosted was Ahriman. Getting to roll 3 times on the new psychic powers tables is pretty sweet.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Midnight I don't like to correct you but Leman Russes only have 3 hull points rather than 4.

This upsets me mainly as every other av 14 tank has 4 hull points (ok just land raider and monolith)


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

demonictalkin56 said:


> Midnight I don't like to correct you but Leman Russes only have 3 hull points rather than 4.
> 
> This upsets me mainly as every other av 14 tank has 4 hull points (ok just land raider and monolith)


To be fair those are 14 on all sides, the Leman Russ has it only on the front.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

The russ not having 4 points just seemed wrong, especially when an executioner can basically glance itself to death now. Really? I thought the russ was the best tank in the game minus super heavies? Guard was supposed to be the tank race.... sad face.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

aye Land Raider is all round this is true.

As Armyguy said, the IG were meant to be the tankies and I just feel it kinda cheapens the unit overall; even if they gave the higher armoured tanks 4 hull points (eg. executioner aving 11 back armour) it would be more representative....oh well.

Also in terms of being worse off.....still dont have the artillery options in model form; i can't afford forge world prices and am not very skilled with green stuff etc; even an upgrade kit would be awesome!


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

ARMYguy said:


> The russ not having 4 points just seemed wrong, especially when an executioner can basically glance itself to death now. Really? I thought the russ was the best tank in the game minus super heavies? Guard was supposed to be the tank race.... sad face.


Just don't take the sponsons if you're that worried about gets hot. The executioner cannon doesn't have the gets hot rule.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

You're surprised there's a difference in Hull points between a 14/14/14 tank and a 14/13/11 one? 

I'm not.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

not at all; as someone earlier on said, give the 14 all round tanks 5 hull points and choice others (inc russes) give them 4.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

It takes 27 missile shots from BS4 to glance a Russ to death. 18 Lascannon shots. 

Cover (which you only need 25% coverage to get) turns that into ~40 Missile shots. It has *fine* survivability. 

Now you cant stop it from firing with anything less than a lascannon (1/6), a railgun (1/3), or melta in melta range.


Russes got better. A lot better.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

All Khorne Daemon Units with the exception of Bloodthirsters got boned big time!

The two biggest killers were the fact that powerweapons are now AP3, and that Furious Charge lost its Initiative Bonus so now Crushers and Bloodletters ALWAYS strike at the same time as marines. Add in the fact they are fragile and have no assault grenades and you have a stinker on your hands.

In saying that Orks didn't do too well with the Furious Charge nerf either.

In terms of improvement, the top two Daemon Units that are now really good are Bloodthirsters and Soul Grinders. Both were quite marginal in the last edition, but they seem really competitive in 6th edition.

Also, the new Flamers and Screamer rule changes have buffed those two Units immensely.


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

gally912 said:


> It takes 27 missile shots from BS4 to glance a Russ to death. 18 Lascannon shots.
> 
> Cover (which you only need 25% coverage to get) turns that into ~40 Missile shots. It has *fine* survivability.
> 
> ...


Definantly better in a few ways but hull points are a let down. I expected lr and and monolith to have 5 and russes 4 chimeras rhinos 3 sentinals etc 2


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I have to agree with the overall opinion that Land Raiders should have 5 hull points. They are too expensive to get Wrecked with 4 Glances.

Also Soul Grinders are the bees knees!


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

plus crons can glance av 14 as easy as 10 soooo.....


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

- Khan : too much of a shaft striking last that steps into ruining his fluff. I used to run him as solo madman but can't anymore, not a big loss but a loss none the less.

+CSM's: Marks provide actual useable bonuses add the new heavy weapon shooting rules and the squads actually have purpose.

+Raptors: with the jump pack rules you can land hammer strikes, mark of slaanesh them and you can dispatch a marine squad or equiv with very few losses.

+Terminators: 2+ saves give them much better staying power these days. And with MoK or Slan you can pulverise marines.

-CSM'S DP: no deamonic flight means no vector strike something that would truly make them gods amongst men.

+CSM land raider: although snap shooting, it can move and fire which it couldn't really do before.

-Rhinos: Though this is probably me finding trouble finding their Role in my force.

-Summoned daemons: utter utter trash now, they were bad before but good god. No.

+Dreads: now not so pants on head.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

ThoseKrazyKasrkin said:


> plus crons can glance av 14 as easy as 10 soooo.....


Then 5 Hull Points still wouldn't matter because they'd be gone pretty quick against Necrons.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

mynameisgrax said:


> Why do they keep screwing over the poor Tyranids?
> 
> The new codex was mediocre at best, combined with no assaulting after outflanking, combined with the fact that they're the only race not able to ally (which makes sense, but it's yet another handicap) has made the Tyranids the runt of the 40k universe. For the race that is supposed to be the most fearsome and dangerous in the galaxy, this just doesn't seem right.


tyranids don't have hull points. 

honestly though, it was rare for me to lose with my nids in 5th and imo, with the flyer rules for hive tyrants, snap fire, and the changes to preferred enemy, i am not that worried about 6th. nids CC has been subpar since the new codex, but you can make evil mixed lists. i have lists that the people i play with will only let me use at tournaments and still bitch about them then.


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Zion said:


> Then 5 Hull Points still wouldn't matter because they'd be gone pretty quick against Necrons.


i disagree. 5 by definition is more than 4 so it could make all the difference in the world.
last game i played i wouldve had 2 of my russes survive if it had 4 hull points.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Summoned daemons were good, simply because they could assault from deepstriking. That made them very useful indeed. I don't believe the FAQ nerfed that ability, so until the new dex I'd abuse that...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

ThoseKrazyKasrkin said:


> i disagree. 5 by definition is more than 4 so it could make all the difference in the world.
> last game i played i wouldve had 2 of my russes survive if it had 4 hull points.


They're survivable enough with 3 Hull Points, Squadron rules and an AV14 front. I'm sure there a lot of players who wish they could boast the same. 

Seriously, whining about something that's balanced well is just silly.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I forgot to mention earlier that units of Beasts get a HUGE bonus in this edition.

Being able to climb stairs, move 12 inches a turn, ignore difficult terrain for movement purposes, auto pass dangerous terrain checks thanks to Move Through Cover AND gained Fleet as well. All for no loss of anything to my knowledge.

Expect Dark Eldar Beastmaster units to be utter filth in this edition.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I forgot to mention earlier that units of Beasts get a HUGE bonus in this edition.
> 
> Being able to climb stairs, move 12 inches a turn, ignore difficult terrain for movement purposes, auto pass dangerous terrain checks thanks to Move Through Cover AND gained Fleet as well. All for no loss of anything to my knowledge.
> 
> Expect Dark Eldar Beastmaster units to be utter filth in this edition.


I think this makes Ravenors a lot better too. Poor Hormagaunts aren't Beasts anymore though.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Zion said:


> I think this makes Ravenors a lot better too. Poor Hormagaunts aren't Beasts anymore though.


Will do. I expect it came from GW realising they sold very little BEast units and so gave them huge bonnuses to help them out. And make money of course.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Moonschwine said:


> - Khan : too much of a shaft striking last that steps into ruining his fluff. I used to run him as solo madman but can't anymore, not a big loss but a loss none the less.


I thought Kharn got shafted until I actually used him in games and found out he's not actually as bad as everyone reckons he is. He can't be picked out in combat, and striking last isn't really really bad - he does, after all, have Berzerker bodyguards to dent units first, which they'll now do more significantly as he can't kill any of them until they've all struck. I don't know how to explain it in text, but he's still a strong and cheap beatstick. Just try him.

Midnight


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Hormogaunts aren't beasts any more, but their bounding leap means they roll 3D6 for running, with the Fleet reroll (which means you can reroll all 3?)


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I thought Kharn got shafted until I actually used him in games and found out he's not actually as bad as everyone reckons he is. He can't be picked out in combat, and striking last isn't really really bad - he does, after all, have Berzerker bodyguards to dent units first, which they'll now do more significantly as he can't kill any of them until they've all struck. I don't know how to explain it in text, but he's still a strong and cheap beatstick. Just try him.
> 
> Midnight


Agreed. Add in that he can be back from the front to keep from accidentally taking wounds (and then step forward to lay the smackdown at I1), and protected from challenges via a cheap Skull Champion he's not bad. Just tie up that power fist with a Skull Champ or position Kharn at the other end of the formation to keep him from getting punched.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Zion said:


> Agreed. Add in that he can be back from the front to keep from accidentally taking wounds (and then step forward to lay the smackdown at I1), and protected from challenges via a cheap Skull Champion he's not bad. Just tie up that power fist with a Skull Champ or position Kharn at the other end of the formation to keep him from getting punched.


Hmm. I hadn't thought to feed a Skull Champion to challenges and have Kharn kill the stragglers. I see how it can work.

But still, it's lame way to portray the Avatar of Khorne! He should be pounced at challenges, not skulking in the back and hitting the remains of other people's killing.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sephyr said:


> Hmm. I hadn't thought to feed a Skull Champion to challenges and have Kharn kill the stragglers. I see how it can work.
> 
> But still, it's lame way to portray the Avatar of Khorne! He should be pounced at challenges, not skulking in the back and hitting the remains of other people's killing.


He's not skulking, he's expediting the skull taking process in the most efficient manner possible!


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

The humble flamer got a defensive buff so vet guards, command squads and special weapons squads got a boost, as do Ork burner boys especially if they're in a wagon with a few cheap mekboys.
Looters with a mega armoured characters are good.
The character bonuses on Nobs squads and Nob bikers is a boost as is the bikers toughness boost.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sephyr said:


> Hmm. I hadn't thought to feed a Skull Champion to challenges and have Kharn kill the stragglers. I see how it can work.
> 
> But still, it's lame way to portray the Avatar of Khorne! He should be pounced at challenges, not skulking in the back and hitting the remains of other people's killing.


Yes, a man known as THE BETRAYER certainly wouldn't grab the nearest skull champ, scream "YOU, EARN GLORY FOR THE SKULL GOD!" and physically hurl him into close combat with a SM character when called out. Nope, not a dude like Karhn the Betrayer, he's got your back.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Yes, a man known as THE BETRAYER certainly wouldn't grab the nearest skull champ, scream "YOU, EARN GLORY FOR THE SKULL GOD!" and physically hurl him into close combat with a SM character when called out. Nope, not a dude like Kharn the Betrayer, he's got your back.


Precisely. You could even argue that the Skull Champion refused the challenge and then Kharn killed him for his lack of faith, which is why he winds up dead. It's cinematic, forging a narrative and crap.

Midnight


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Galahad said:


> Yes, a man known as THE BETRAYER certainly wouldn't grab the nearest skull champ, scream "YOU, EARN GLORY FOR THE SKULL GOD!" and physically hurl him into close combat with a SM character when called out. Nope, not a dude like Karhn the Betrayer, he's got your back.


Lawl


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I thought Kharn got shafted until I actually used him in games and found out he's not actually as bad as everyone reckons he is. He can't be picked out in combat, and striking last isn't really really bad - he does, after all, have Berzerker bodyguards to dent units first, which they'll now do more significantly as he can't kill any of them until they've all struck. I don't know how to explain it in text, but he's still a strong and cheap beatstick. Just try him.
> 
> Midnight



I'd given him the run around over a few lists on release, Like you say he's not that bad in a combat and Gore-child murders just as pleasingly (if not better). Like I said It's not much of a loss being unable to run him as a solo-madman, it's just that was the spirit of play i'd given to him, considering he gets his own story in the C:SM Codex about running around like a lone madman.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

SilverTabby said:


> You're surprised there's a difference in Hull points between a 14/14/14 tank and a 14/13/11 one?
> 
> I'm not.


Yet somehow, the 11/11/11 (13/13/11) open topped transport does have 4 hull points....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Moonschwine said:


> I'd given him the run around over a few lists on release, Like you say he's not that bad in a combat and Gore-child murders just as pleasingly (if not better). Like I said It's not much of a loss being unable to run him as a solo-madman, it's just that was the spirit of play i'd given to him, considering he gets his own story in the C:SM Codex about running around like a lone madman.


In 5th, you shot him with a Lascannon and he died like a bitch. You always had to run him in a squad, really.

@Sturk, the 11/11/11 IS made of living metal that flows back together if you manage to put a dent in it, and is therefore practically impossible to damage for any real period of time. No matter how thickly you plate ceramite and adamantium onto a tank, it's not going to be a patch on Necrodermis.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> @Sturk, the 11/11/11 IS made of living metal that flows back together if you manage to put a dent in it, and is therefore practically impossible to damage for any real period of time. No matter how thickly you plate ceramite and adamantium onto a tank, it's not going to be a patch on Necrodermis.
> 
> Midnight


We're just lucky GW didn't give it "Too Horrible To Die" really. Vehicles that regrow their HPs would be EVIL. At least Imperial armies have to take someone to do that and then have to roll for it to work.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Zion said:


> We're just lucky GW didn't give it "Too Horrible To Die" really. Vehicles that regrow their HPs would be EVIL. At least Imperial armies have to take someone to do that and then have to roll for it to work.


I was hoping the Monolith would get it when the FAQs rolled around.


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

Automatic 5+ cover save when moving, AV 14 all around, 4 Hull Points, all for 200 pts... and you'd want to give that the ability to recover hull points? Do you play Necrons, by chance?


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## Madden (Jan 22, 2012)

You can restore hull points on it for 60 pts buy a spyder(lol). As for improved, jump troops and basic infantry worse goes to pure elite assault units with no shooting ie cc nid warriors(hell any cc nids), incubi etc. Minor nurf to mid/low armour transports minor buff to Fmc's. I'm not saying on flyers yet it's to soon.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Madden said:


> You can restore hull points on it for 60 pts buy a spyder(lol). As for improved, jump troops and basic infantry worse goes to pure elite assault units with no shooting ie cc nid warriors(hell any cc nids), incubi etc. Minor nurf to mid/low armour transports minor buff to Fmc's. I'm not saying on flyers yet it's to soon.


that just became so much more viable. hadn't even thought of that.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> In 5th, you shot him with a Lascannon and he died like a bitch. You always had to run him in a squad, really.
> 
> @Sturk, the 11/11/11 IS made of living metal that flows back together if you manage to put a dent in it, and is therefore practically impossible to damage for any real period of time. No matter how thickly you plate ceramite and adamantium onto a tank, it's not going to be a patch on Necrodermis.
> 
> Midnight


I ran him with a squad until he was in charge range of another squad and he'd then wander off and go Rambo. He honestly was a one man army. Otherwise all your points are valid as its nice to see the differences of game style.


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