# Blood Angels Vs Eldar



## Jay Harvest (Mar 3, 2014)

Hey guys,

I would very much appreciate some help in a 1250 point game against Eldar.

My opponent is very competitive and I am pretty sure that he will bring a Wraithknight!

I play Blood Angels and need some help in building a list to give him a decent fight 

Hope you can give me some good advice both in list building and tactics

JH


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

As an eldar player against BA...

I hate sternguard in pods. Eldar (unless they have a billion guardians) suck at bubble wrapping.
Mephiston - Punks wraithknights in 1 round of cc. Goes first, hurts on a 2+ with no save and force weapons them.
Storm Ravens - Too many guns on them in general.
Honour guard with jump packs and plasma guns led by a divination libby (especially if he gets ignores cover). PITA.
Corbulo leading tacs on an objective. Essentially makes one squad immune to shuriken fire - los's anything bigger.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Oh boy, a personal favoritue of mine. Let me take a crack at this my freind.

When it comes to Blood Angels you need to harness their RAW power, and swiftly use that to pressure your foe. Bring a Death Company...you will need it, and they will greatly counter any Banshee's if he favors those. There Furious Charge mixed with their multiple attacks and ability to champion close combat make them an asset to any Blood Angel's Army. 

If you can bring a Librarian, and utilize the power of Wings. Also the Spear (if you can roll it constantly) will greatly help against your WraithKnight. 

If you have points to afford Dante grab him, and give them storm shields with power axes. That will eat most Eldar alive, and the Fast Attack units great for disrupting gun platforms should be bring Cannons. Blood Angels have some great fast attack, so try and utlize this to quickly hit him before he can make use of his Psyker's/Heavies. 

Finally bring a Baal....lord only knows the bad boys will eat his Gaurdians like they were paper. If you play a higher point value two of these will sweep most infantry from the field. Invest if you favor armor or swift Blitzkreig tactics as the Baal will come in handy.


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## Jay Harvest (Mar 3, 2014)

Alright guys
Thanks for your advice!
Like you say Gret79 I have considered a drop pod with 5 Sternguards with combi-melta as some kind of alpha-strike unit but I think it is somewhat expensive for a one trick pony?
I have been toying with the idea to use Baal Preds or Vindicators, but I think that 2 Baal with HB sponsons and TL AC would be the best loadout? So far I have only used 2 Whirlwinds L
But list-wise I am thinking something like the following:
HQ:
Reclusiarch
Troop:
Assault Squad with PF
Death Company (9) with Land Raider
Fast Attack:
2 x Baal Predators with TLAC % HB sponsons
Land Speeder with HB
My idea is that the HQ joins the DC and runs wild like mad men. The assault squad are well… I need 2 troop choices and the 2 Baal’s for fast support?
Is this just me being silly or? 

Empororshand: you would recommend a Librarian instead of a Reclusiarch? I actually thought that Dante was too expensive for this point level?
But maybe I should take more assault squads with jump packs then?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I wouldn't bring a raider or death company tbh. 
Eldar are best at taking out small elite forces. I love fighting landraiders - my brightlances count them as av12 which kinda ruins the point.
Death company are overkill against eldar - normal asm's are enough.
Instead of sternguard in a pod, can you take 5 asm's with two meltas and a serge with two melta pistols?
I wouldn't use Dante - his axe ruins his cc at the moment. He gets beat by anyone ap2 who strikes at initiative.
Seriously, look at Mephiston. If he gets near to eldar and they don't have either karandras or asurmen they have nothing to stop him.


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## Jay Harvest (Mar 3, 2014)

Okay, I will try to make a list without the Land raider and DC, this will free up a lot points..
The rumor has that this guy also will bring a lot of AP3 weapons, I don't know how?

If I take a 5 man asm squad i can give the serge af PF and one other guy a melta gun, I don't know the rules about two melta pistols.

I'm looking forward to use Mephiston, but I think that a 1250 point game maybe is too small for him, he clocks in at 250..

I thought that lots of dakka was the way to go, but maybe CC is?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There is no game too small for Mephiston. At low points values, it's even less likely that your opponent has counters to him. In bigger games, you can support him fully. Bring Mephiston in every list you make from 750pts onwards unless you're fighting players with a lot of experience killing 'Demolisher Models' (Warboss on Warbike, Mephstion, Thunderwolf Lord, etc.).

If you can negate Eldar's mobility you'll have no problems winning the game, as they don't have the firepower or durability to win a straight fight. The easiest way to do this is to move quickly yourself and back them up in their own table half. If you can do that, Eldar can't usually break out in my experience.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm gonna say this. Eldar shoot shit. And they're fast. I saw DC, don't bring DC. They are slow and die to massed fire... Mephy wouldn't be bad, as most Eldar shots are s6 or s7 (to his t6) and worse than ap2, so he is more survivable than most things... If he takes wraithguard, then plasma is a good idea... If you know he doesn't take lots of lances or meltas I would suggest a land raider (oh my god are these things fun against Eldar)... Combat is great if you can get their intact, but a baal predator or two would be a good idea to deal with any guardians or dire avengers (or other ap4 troops) he might have crawling around. A little melta is enough, flamers are unnecessary because your CC will kill them enough... idk. Eldar are tough for me


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

JAMOB said:


> Eldar shots are s6 or s7


Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).



Gret79 said:


> Seriously, look at Mephiston.


Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice. Gret/Jay Harvest he is a good idea depending on how you play, but you need a Rhino to move him quickly to the front else he becoems a sniper's target.

Dante is a good choice for Fast Attack Blood Angel armies. He its hard and his Leadership will keep them fighting till only he is still standing. Additionally his abilities are good for support, and when you work in conjunction with 2-3 other ASM squads it makes for a deadly combination. That being said he does not hit as hard or fast as Mephiston, and needs to be carefully place to be effective. 



Gret79 said:


> Death company are overkill against eldar - normal asm's are enough


Exactly why we need them, MAUHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! 










Ahem, aside my my evil genius moment, Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar. 

It is true what Gret says, Assault SM's are fast and sufficient against Edlar, but only just sufficient. ASM cost more, and to loose them is a hit that can set you back early game. Put the Death Company in a Rhino/LandRaider and then see how much damage they do. Additionally back them u with a Baal and ASM can just go home.. 



Jay Harvest said:


> you would recommend a Librarian instead of a Reclusiarch? I actually thought that Dante was too expensive for this point level?
> But maybe I should take more assault squads with jump packs then?


Either is good, but I would take Librarian over Reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch is good, but when it comes the Bood Angels Librarians are better. I have foudn they are more effective, and with good rolls you can make good effect of their psychic powers. Plus the special Blood Angel psyker abilities are mong the best in the Astartes, and yo can make use of them when vrsing Eldar; esecially Farseer's and Warlocks.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).


And any half decent Eldar player is going to be fielding anywhere from three to six units capable of mounting shuriken cannons, starcannons, eldar missile launchers, bright lances, scatter lasers, or pulse lasers.

You know, warwalkers, wave serpeants, vypers, guardian jetbikes, falcons, fire prisms, wraithlords, or guardian defenders. Then you have things like wraithguard and wraithknights and their wave cannons/heavy wave cannons.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

darkreever said:


> And any half decent Eldar player is going to be fielding anywhere from three to six units capable of mounting shuriken cannons, starcannons, eldar missile launchers, bright lances, scatter lasers, or pulse lasers.


I can confirm this. I play in the same battlegroup as Jay Harvest, and the Eldar player in question bases his army on 3 loadouts: shuriken cannons, scatter lasers and starcannons. He has built his list around high strength (with a chance of AP3) essentially, bikes and a Wraithknight. 

Oh and all his groundtroops are always in Wave Serpents, but I bet you already guessed that one. 

Just FYI for all those helping out


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice. Gret/Jay Harvest he is a good idea depending on how you play, but you need a Rhino to move him quickly to the front else he becoems a sniper's target.


He's slow if you don't count his psychic jump pack or fleet. As a 1 man unit he's easy to hide too. He should make combat.

PS - No one takes rangers (eldar snipers) anymore - they're expensive and die as soon as anything gets into range. And a squad of 5 will hit with 3-4, so you're looking at 1-2 wounds. If you see 10 laugh and use a flamer on them...



emporershand89 said:


> Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar.


Death company are cheap? I've never seen that written before. Usually wipe basic eldar? Tactical marines usually wipe basic eldar. 1 man with a stick could wipe basic eldar. My budgies could wipe basic eldar :laugh: - you don't need the extra attacks at all. If you hit and wipe them in one turn, you've just left yourself open to getting shot off the table by everything else. We have fire dragons, wraithguard etc against these weapons, you survive as long as a normal marine most of the time. 
FNP means you survive slightly longer against starcannons and fireprisms but you can take priests for that with normal marines. Not scoring also sucks too.

I agree on Baal predators (the flame variant) and Librarians - although I'd take divination over the standard powers with them (Book powers for Meph, you need the psychic jump pack) 
Every power in divination is useful 

Presience - re-roll shooting
Scriers Gaze - makes sure your Baal appears where it's needed
Perfect Timing - Stick it on a heavy support unit = Screw you wave serpents. You only need three glances to down them


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> He should make combat.


I must disagree, and Rangers were the least of my concerns. Most of the time Heavies, Elites, and psyker-based units will target him; or his squad. I sually loose him within 2-3 turns if I do not rush him to the front. I favor Rhino's heavily, but Drop Pod or Deep Strike works well to. Idea is to drop him and watch him do his job.....Fire and Forget.

In the case of Eldar he should, however I'd be concern if a Walker/Falcon targeted him.



Gret79 said:


> Death company are cheap?


Why yes, have you looked at the Point Value for an Astarte? A Squad of Astarte? It's very expensive, and not cheap when company to other Codex's, so you generally dont see over 8-10 models a group. I can whore those Death Squad, and then dump then to eat unit after unit. Personally if you want to make use of them treat them like cannon fodder; the more the merrier.



Gret79 said:


> I'd take divination over the standard powers


Eh...your choice. I just find the standard powers to my liking, but Divination works too. Witht he new rules it may actually be the better of the two.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> I must disagree, and Rangers were the least of my concerns. Most of the time Heavies, Elites, and psyker-based units will target him; or his squad. I sually loose him within 2-3 turns if I do not rush him to the front. I favor Rhino's heavily, but Drop Pod or Deep Strike works well to. Idea is to drop him and watch him do his job.....Fire and Forget. In the case of Eldar he should, however I'd be concern if a Walker/Falcon targeted him.


Who said anything about not rushing him to the front? He should be going in fast, with a couple of other units to take the heat off him - like meltas in pods and fast transports with some heavy weapons covering him. If you just run him up the board in the open you'll lose him. However, if you're playing with enough terrain then you should be able to get near without ever being in LOS of units that will kill you.
I've not seen a falcon in an eldar list for a very long time - not as survivable as a wave serpent, not as much fire power, not as much transport capacity and takes up an already over crowded slot in HS. People also prefer prisms too.



emporershand89 said:


> or his squad


Mephiston cannot lead a squad - he doesn't have the independant character rule.



emporershand89 said:


> Why yes, have you looked at the Point Value for an Astarte? A Squad of Astarte? It's very expensive, and not cheap when company to other Codex's, so you generally dont see over 8-10 models a group.


You also generally don't see more than 8-10 marines in a squad as most marines can only be taken in units of up to 10... 
Your death company blob in a squad above 10 can't fit in a transport (unless FW or landraider - and for the latter, I take bright lances) so it's slow (unless you pay the premium for jump packs so they cost even more) and still isn't scoring.
And death company IIRC cost 60pts for 3 and then 20 ppm after that. Tacticals cost about 160 points for 10 - so you're saving about 40points per squad which you can put towards a fair amount of things.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).


The main strength of the Eldar is their ability to pump out tons of s6/7 shots, that and their damned mobility, all for not that much. With mephy, then wound on 3s or 4s rather than 2s which is fantastic. Even with those s4 shots (and what s2 shots are there?) he's more survivable because they woudn on 6s not 4s. So... yeah. Vote Mephy :victory:



emporershand89 said:


> Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar.


Oh yeah, 30 for 600 points plus the 130 reclusiarch and any upgrades is totally super cheap! Not like it's more than half of your force or anything... Seriously though, most Eldar players will be able to just run around the DC and shoot them to death (or ignore them and kill everything else).



emporershand89 said:


> It is true what Gret says, Assault SM's are fast and sufficient against Edlar, but only just sufficient. ASM cost more, and to loose them is a hit that can set you back early game. Put the Death Company in a Rhino/LandRaider and then see how much damage they do. Additionally back them u with a Baal and ASM can just go home..


Assault marines are 10 points less for 10 guys (ignoring upgrades) and can take better upgrades in addition to being twice as fast (and therefore harder to outmaneuver). In addition, you can take multiple squads of them kitted out to your hearts desire.



emporershand89 said:


> Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice.


DC are faster? But Mephy does have wings which is a pretty damned good shot of getting a JP every turn. Not amazing, but a damn sight better than just a bunch of footsloggers.



emporershand89 said:


> Dante is a good choice for Fast Attack Blood Angel armies. He its hard and his Leadership will keep them fighting till only he is still standing. Additionally his abilities are good for support, and when you work in conjunction with 2-3 other ASM squads it makes for a deadly combination. That being said he does not hit as hard or fast as Mephiston, and needs to be carefully place to be effective.


Dante is not a bad idea, but I personally prefer mephy for all his killy goodness. Your call though mate.



emporershand89 said:


> Either is good, but I would take Librarian over Reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch is good, but when it comes the Bood Angels Librarians are better. I have foudn they are more effective, and with good rolls you can make good effect of their psychic powers. Plus the special Blood Angel psyker abilities are mong the best in the Astartes, and yo can make use of them when vrsing Eldar; esecially Farseer's and Warlocks.


My rule is Reclusiarch if you have DC (because he makes them so much better) and Libby the rest of the time. I rarely take reclusiarchs, and I've never regretted taking a librarian.


*EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings k:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

JAMOB said:


> *EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings


Not a chance, I refuse to ignore them as they're relevent! :laugh:

Especially the part about DC


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Fair enough mate


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

JAMOB said:


> But Mephy does have wings which is a pretty damned good shot of getting a JP every turn. Not amazing, but a damn sight better than just a bunch of footsloggers.


True, but I need to roll for those wings compared to not having to run the risk of getting eaten by Deamonic's with the Assault Marines. Again it is really a layers preference, but I usually don't take Mephy for his psyker power(even though that is why they invented him in the first place). I take him because he's a One-Man Army.



JAMOB said:


> I rarely take reclusiarchs, and I've never regretted taking a librarian.


Smart choice, but both have their benefits.



JAMOB said:


> *EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings


Eh, it's cool :good: Welcome to Heresy 



Gret79 said:


> IIRC cost 60pts for 3 and then 20 ppm after that. Tacticals cost about 160 points for 10


True, but for 15-20 it's only really 300-400 points. Even if I did take 30 I see it as a worthwhile investment in higher point games that are +1,000pts. They are the blob squad, and an OP blob squad at that. I don't need them to be fast but that invest is worthwhile considering their CQC prowness. I just need them to close range and draw fire/blob for my more elite units to kill the big guys first. That or drop pod them in and let them eat my opponent alive.



Gret79 said:


> Mephiston cannot lead a squad - he doesn't have the independant character rule


Yes, I mean more with a squad in support. Or a squad in front, take your pic. Mixing him with the common warrior brings some excellent results (though watch for Deamonic's, I have lost him too many times to count to these buggers).


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> Even if I did take 30 I see it as a worthwhile investment in higher point games that are +1,000pts. They are the blob squad, and an OP blob squad at that. I don't need them to be fast but that invest is worthwhile considering their CQC prowness.


They'd be fun on the charge, but if you don't get the charge they're nothing special even with WS5 all around. Being slow is a serious detriment to a CC squad, specially when your opponent's troops are in fast transports as Nordicus pointed out.



emporershand89 said:


> That or drop pod them in and let them eat my opponent alive.


10 guys with virtually no firepower presence the turn they show up is hardly going to survive if they're close enough to move in to charge the following turn. Barring extravagantly dense terrain and either a misjudgment or bad dice on your opponent's end of things that squad is going to get shot up and be charging at much less than its intended strength. FnP is good, but it's nothing to rely on.

I have never faced Eldar but I have faced gunline IG, stand and shoot CSM, and Tau with my BA, as well as a 'crushing-to-advance-on' 90+ SM list. From this I am drawing the conclusion that without a decidedly armoured entrance for the squad (ie. a LRC/R or SR if your opponent doesn't have much Skyfire), as well as enough other high priority targets to draw fire from it, DC just aren't fast enough to be worth their points against high rate of fire opponents. They aren't fast enough to get in on foot (specially with terrain in the way to block LoS/provide cover), and because they have the reputation they do any opponent worth a spit is going to put anything they can spare on that squad.

I dunno. Maybe my opponent is just wise to my BA tactics, maybe I suck as a player and don't know how to use my DC, maybe none of this even matters because the dice gods have the last laugh anyway. It was bugging me not to comment on this just because I haven't faced Eldar.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

ntaw said:


> I dunno. Maybe my opponent is just wise to my BA tactics, maybe I suck as a player and don't know how to use my DC, maybe none of this even matters because the dice gods have the last laugh anyway.


Probably was him bro, your point is solid and your probably a decent player dude.  That being said it's my take on the Blood Angels Death Company; which is sadly based on my addicition to their Codex. I borrowed heavily when formulating my own chatper's background.



ntaw said:


> specially when your opponent's troops are in fast transports as Nordicus pointed out.


Indeed quite, however if I drop them just close enough to become effective then they will disrupt his lanes of fire for more elite units to do the job. But as you pointed out in lesser point games such losses are critical. Indeed it's a issue.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> That being said it's my take on the Blood Angels Death Company; which is sadly based on my addicition to their Codex. I borrowed heavily when formulating my own chatper's background.


Own Chapter eh? ....I was too lazy for that, but it would have totally been a BA successor had it went down. I always thought Flesh Tearers were cool, but only recently would have felt confident trying to split a model down its centre by colour. I really wish that I could find more of a place in my games for DC; when I face my opponent who isn't as competitive I use them every time because I love the models and the fluff.



emporershand89 said:


> however if I drop them just close enough to become effective then they will disrupt his lanes of fire for more elite units to do the job


OR you could drop a MG RAS squad in and take out one of those WS's out T1 (potentially before it has moved, not sure if it has to move to gain its cover save nonsense) leaving a scoring unit behind to weather the shots. It means no FnP, but unless there's a bunch of AP3 facing them down or your opponent is PISSED you took down a tank T1 it's only bad dice that will kill the entire squad leaving nothing to keep pestering the following turn. It works great for me in most of my games (excluding the dude with 90 damn marines and no vehicles), I'm not sure how it would stack up against Eldar in this aspect. It's 25 points less expensive than a bare bones no special weapon or Chaplain 10 man DC in a DP, and since you'd have to add 80 points to include a Chaplain pretty easy to argue that it's more effective in most lists for the points.

Problems with a MG RAS DP:

-does the wave serpent have a standing cover save without moving?
-would it make more sense to (and I know this is crazy) use PGs to try and deal some early game damage on that Wraithknight or the bikes?
-sometimes both damn MGs miss and then you fail all your armour saves and are left with a 210 point hole in the ground, but at least it got to attack with two MGs before dying. Never underestimate the importance of First Blood

Either way, you're looking at a squad you can be WAY more in your face with because you don't give a fuck if they survive to charge. You can use the DP to obstruct movement and LoS more because you don't have to hide it and your DC away from T1 shooting, and you get a (again, depending on those WS cover saves) good shot at taking First Blood. 

Maybe it's because I really do love the power of the DC and want to see them hit combat at full strength that I don't DP them in T1, or maybe it's because it just isn't viable against more competitive players. I will have to try it more to find out...but for me to try it out in my most competitive scenario means potentially throwing the game just to try a tactic. Maybe that will wait for when I'm playing more than a couple games a month, I feel like I owe it to my models to try my hardest to win when they only hit the field so often.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

ntaw said:


> -does the wave serpent have a standing cover save without moving?


Skimmers get a 5+ jink. In order to use holo-fields, you need to be moving.

T1 Drop pods are annoying. Especially with an 5 man ASM squad with 2 meltas and a sergeant dual wielding 2 melta pistols - it's cheaper than sternguard and can still break my tanks...:angry:

If I played BA, I'd have loads :grin:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Gret79 said:


> T1 Drop pods are annoying. Especially with an 5 man ASM squad with 2 meltas and a sergeant dual wielding 2 melta pistols - it's cheaper than sternguard and can still break my tanks...


If your going up against someone who is bringing a pair of meltaguns in five man assault squads then you need to have them reread that codex entry. They don't gain access to the second weapon option unless the squad is ten strong.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

darkreever said:


> If your going up against someone who is bringing a pair of meltaguns in five man assault squads then you need to have them reread that codex entry. They don't gain access to the second weapon option unless the squad is ten strong.


He'd either combat squadded 10 and taken the weapons in 1 or I've miscounted the number of shots I took and it was 3 not four. 
Either way, I thought it was a good unit


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Gret79 said:


> Skimmers get a 5+ jink. In order to use holo-fields, you need to be moving.


So you COULD DP assault them with MGs on their WSs. Excellent...



Gret79 said:


> 5 man ASM squad with 2 meltas and a sergeant dual wielding 2 melta pistols


Reducing a 10 man RAS squad to put the two special weapons in the DP leaves you with 5 BP/CCW guys footslogging the table and peels off your meat shield for those weapons...I can't really think of a scenario where this would become advantageous. I employ this tactic with a 10 man squad basically every game I play and if it weren't for those 7 wounds before I lose my sergeant and MGs (depending on model positioning and direction of fire) I'd get SO MUCH less done. Something else to consider is how absolutely close to your opponent you have to get the disembark after the DP scatters (or not) to utilize the Infernus Pistols. They have a range of 6", so in order to roll the glorious 2D6 for armour penetration you have to be within 3" of your target. This means your sergeant that you just spent 30 points on arming with the shortest range weapon that isn't a CCW is also likely going to be out front of the squad and likely first to die in the upcoming enemy shooting phase.



Gret79 said:


> I thought it was a good unit


It's true, 3/4 melta shots T1 is nothing shy of glorious. It just takes some good wind at your back to pull off nicely. At least you have Inertial Dampeners on your side, right? A 5 man RAS w/ MG and 2x IPs is 140 points, I typically spend 210-235 on the same tactic save I put a PF on the sergeant or nothing at all. I much prefer the durability of 10 man squads, and strongly dislike the small range of the IP for the points. Notably last game, my 10 man RAS (w/PF this time) killed a Vindicator showing up and Helbrute after being charged T1, worked on a 20 man Cultist squad with the help of a Fragioso T2-3, and finally the lone remaining sergeant charged and fisted a Heldrake that got caught in Hover mode T5. There's always the times that they die pathetically, but that happens to basically everything every now and again. I don't feel like I would get the same return from only 5 guys.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

ntaw said:


> So you COULD DP assault them with MGs on their WSs. Excellent...


If you can, get round the back of the tank. No serpent shield there so you just have the jink save to get past.



ntaw said:


> Reducing a 10 man RAS squad to put the two special weapons in the DP leaves you with 5 BP/CCW guys footslogging the table and peels off your meat shield for those weapons...I can't really think of a scenario where this would become advantageous


I think he kept 5 on an objective in his deployment zone and suicide melta'd a wave serpent.


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