# Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher for Deathwing Terminators?



## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Already asked this on another forum but things were coming to a draw so I decided to ask here too for a second opinion.
Due to modelling ineptitude I put both an Assault Cannon and a Cyclone Missile Launcher in one Terminator squad and I'm not sure which I should pry off and which I should keep.
If needed, here is my army list and I can give more information if needed.
Not considering the Heavy Flamer, Plasma Cannon or having no Heavy Weapon.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

EDIT: How do I get a poll on here? Can't seem to find the option, before or after posting.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Plasma Cannon (just noticed you said you're not considering it, doesn't change anything). The CML is a great weapon to be sure, but AP3 doesn't blow up transports. The AC is a joke when it isn't twin-linked.

Why aren't you considering the PC?


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

I've heard nothing but horrible things about it.
I only have one in my Tactical Squad because it came with the Dark Vengeance kit.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Well, I love them. I can see why you might not though, but I definitely suggest you to play they weapons yourself and decide. Even if they're modeled as ACs you could play them as such in a friendly game.

CML or AC I would choose the missiles all day. I also like having these models equipped with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields whenever possible, but that's just a happy bonus.


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Might be open to using one of the two discarded weapons in my future Deathwing Command Squad, will see then.

I... Actually only have the one Thunder Hammer so it's not too much of an option, but that's something else I might look into with my Command Squad.

As for now, still not feeling good about the Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer, and that would take 2-3 times the modelling, having to remove both weapons rather than just one.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

What sort of glue do you use? Popping an arm off should be a pretty simple affair.


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Citadel Thin Plastic Glue


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

That plastic glue is rough stuff on your models. I've never been a fan of it over plain old super glue as I've never wanted to put the effort into dealing with the application and cleanup. Plus, if you have second thoughts about your weapon options it's easier to just pop off a super glued arm (even if it was pinned in place) than it is to cut off a plastic glued arm. 

I play PCs in my squads and use a CML in my command squad (that's armed with 4x TH/SSs, a CML, and one's an apothecary). I used to use the missile launchers everywhere but those points add up pretty quick even now that our squads are generally a bit cheaper. I also played two AC squads for a while because I had some Dark Vengeance guys but invariably phased them out of play. They now have Heavy Flamers on them for when I play my old version of Space Hulk.

What have you heard that has you so spooked about the plasma cannon? Gets Hot is barely a worry unless you're rolling consecutive 1's (which bones anyone), and scatter can be frustrating for the user at times but that blast template can touch multiple vehicles or potentially a whole unit that just disembarked a wrecked transport. Both of these things happened _to me_ in my last game, let alone when I'm using the weapons against my opponents who might not have the same experiences I do and can leave themselves vulnerable to such things.


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

ntaw said:


> That plastic glue is rough stuff on your models. I've never been a fan of it over plain old super glue as I've never wanted to put the effort into dealing with the application and cleanup. Plus, if you have second thoughts about your weapon options it's easier to just pop off a super glued arm (even if it was pinned in place) than it is to cut off a plastic glued arm.


I do sort of see what you mean, but I like working with the plastic glue, and I can cut things off if needed (plus, handy to know my models won't fall apart when stripping them or something similar).



ntaw said:


> I play PCs in my squads and use a CML in my command squad (that's armed with 4x TH/SSs, a CML, and one's an apothecary). I used to use the missile launchers everywhere but those points add up pretty quick even now that our squads are generally a bit cheaper. I also played two AC squads for a while because I had some Dark Vengeance guys but invariably phased them out of play. They now have Heavy Flamers on them for when I play my old version of Space Hulk.


Gotcha I suppose, so if narrowed to the two I want, you'd say the CML?
Do see what you mean about the points though, concerned about picking it over the AC for that reason.
Will also say I wonder about your Command Squad, I thought it wasn't legal to put a CML on a Hammernator or an Apothecary?



ntaw said:


> What have you heard that has you so spooked about the plasma cannon? Gets Hot is barely a worry unless you're rolling consecutive 1's (which bones anyone), and scatter can be frustrating for the user at times but that blast template can touch multiple vehicles or potentially a whole unit that just disembarked a wrecked transport. Both of these things happened _to me_ in my last game, let alone when I'm using the weapons against my opponents who might not have the same experiences I do and can leave themselves vulnerable to such things.


Gets Hot is really only the tip of the iceberg, most I've heard discuss Imperial Heavy Weapons seem to hate the Plasma Cannon for the unreliability of Small Blasts mostly (I did hear someone else say that's not a big deal, in the context of the CML's Frag Missiles against hordes, which resonated since I know I'll be facing Nids and Guard), though looking at it, Heavy 1 and its statline seem kinda weak. Seems like it'd only be better against massed MEQs and TEQs, with the other two better against horde infantry and vehicles.


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## DaisyDuke (Aug 18, 2011)

Massed plasma cannon blasts can do a heap of damage with decent strength and ap. The only thing it can't do is shoot flyers. And personally I would only be shooting flyers with a crack missile and a ass cannon in a real tight pinch. 
It kind of dependent upon what the squad is going to do. If you want an all round option I'd take an ass cannon. If you want to sit back and shoot? Take the launcher.


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

All I really know as of yet is that they'll be Deep Striking.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

CrashGordon94 said:


> I like working with the plastic glue


Yeah, everyone's got their preference for sure. I've been known to bust apart even painted models to revamp for current rule sets/effective loadouts that are done with being proxied.



CrashGordon94 said:


> Gotcha I suppose, so if narrowed to the two I want, you'd say the CML?


Yes.



CrashGordon94 said:


> Will also say I wonder about your Command Squad, I thought it wasn't legal to put a CML on a Hammernator or an Apothecary?


4x TH/SS (one for each model that isn't the Apothecary), one model from those equipped with a CML, and the Apothecary as they must be. Easy to miss with the way I typed it, forgive my shorthand.



CrashGordon94 said:


> most I've heard discuss Imperial Heavy Weapons seem to hate the Plasma Cannon for the unreliability of Small Blasts mostly


Small blasts only become unreliable when your opponent know how to, and consistently does, space their models appropriately.



CrashGordon94 said:


> which resonated since I know I'll be facing Nids and Guard


There's crucial info right there. If you're facing horde armies hells yea, CML all day. I'd still stray away from the AC though since it's 20 points and honestly just doesn't cut it without twin-linked for me...though as a BA player primarily I'm spoiled with TLACs almost everywhere I look.



CrashGordon94 said:


> Seems like it'd only be better against massed MEQs and TEQs, with the other two better against horde infantry and vehicles.


You're half right. The PC is for sure better against T/MEQ, but it does the same amount of damage to GEQ and worse as well...just without the second blast (or points cost, CML blasts are also S4 which can leave you wanting sometimes). ACs are a joke against vehicles at S6 even with Rending (being that the AP2 factor of Rending doesn't apply against a vehicle). The potential is there, but in all honesty you're just not stacking the odds enough in your favour and Guard is pretty much all AV12+ with few exceptions unless you're flanking and Terminators are hella slow. CMLs can do damage to a tank, but with AP3 you're almost never going to wreck anything in one turn; you'll end up putting two different squad's CMLs (50 points of upgrades) into the same tank just to get results. Again the potential is there in that you could get two pens and two Immobilized results, but in all the time I've used them I've never had that happen to me. The S7 from a PC has a rough time dealing with tanks to be sure as 5 to glance AV12 is nothing to count on, but AP2 is where real anti-tank starts with the current Damage Chart.

tl;dr:
Against AV12 and 3HP (based off attacking a Chimera's front armour)
-CML has two shots at S8 need a 5 to pen and can't wreck a vehicle without both coming up Immobilized
-AC is pretty much the same, but needs a 6 just to enable Rending and then at least two 6's again to wreck
-PC needs a 6 just the same, but can blow up the vehicle with its a single shot


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

I see what you mean with all that, probably should go with the CML then, can change stuff later if needed I suppose. Thank you for the info, might reconsider the Plasma Cannon on my future Command Squad!

On a sidenote, the wording says that the Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield replace all weapons, so wouldn't that make the CML Hammernator illegal? Or do you have a house rule?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Oh man, you had me worried for a minute there. Like, almost pissed at yet another thing nullified for my beloved Deathwing army with the new 'dex.

Right until I read the caveat '1' (pg.97, bottom right in italics) which applies solely to the CML:



> Does not replace the model's storm bolter.


So you can swap all your weapons for a TH/SS as per the entry, then take one item from the Terminator Heavy Weapon list which doesn't need to replace any weapons. The way I read it,

1) DW Terminator comes with SB/PF base
2) swaps SB/PF for TH/SS (all stock weapons have been replaced)
3) 5 models in the squad unlocks an item from the THW list
4) model with TH/SS takes CML as it is the only weapon that doesn't swap out the SB

I know the vernacular is subtly different than in the old book, but does that jive with you?


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Honestly that sounds highly dubious to me, but as long as your opponents are okay with it, I suppose it's fine.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

CrashGordon94 said:


> Honestly that sounds highly dubious to me


Why?


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Well... It's worded to say "replace *all* weapons with..." and while you get to keep the Storm Bolter, the weapon list saying "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need to *have* a Storm Bolter to use the list.

Nevertheless as long as your opponents are fine with you doing that, there really isn't a problem.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

CrashGordon94 said:


> It's worded to say "replace all weapons with..."


All stock weapons are replaced, both the storm bolter and power fist are swapped.



CrashGordon94 said:


> the weapon list saying "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need to have a Storm Bolter to use the list


No it doesn't. That little '1' next to the cyclone missile launcher reads "does not replace the model's storm bolter" at the bottom right hand corner of the same page (97, for reference).



CrashGordon94 said:


> Nevertheless as long as your opponents are fine with you doing that, there really isn't a problem.


It has nothing to do with them really. I honestly don't even feel like I'm remotely 'cheating the system' as in the old book this was perfectly valid since the wording was "for every five models in the squad one model may take a CML". It's hardly different in this edition, it's essentially "for every five models in the squad one model may take a CML and this does not replace the model's storm bolter". What part of the rules have been violated? All weapons swapped for TH/SS: Check. CML upgrade taken with 5 members to the squad and no stormbolter swapped: Check. Badass model that keeps a CC unit relevant at a distance while costing almost as much as a tricked out Scout squad:










Check. (75 points in one model :shok

_Still_ feel like it's questionable? I don't mean to come off pushy, by all means if I'm wrong I want to know. I just definitely feel like it's a matter of RAW and RAI both pointing to the same thing. Maybe we get some other opinions on this.. @Xabre, @MidnightSun, got any thoughts on the subject?


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

It doesn't say specify stock weapons though, it says "replace *all* weapons", not just the ones they start with.

Never disputed that it doesn't replace the SB, just pointed out that "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need a Storm Bolter in the first place to be using that list, even if it says later on that you keep it .

I do see what you mean though, not saying it's ABSOLUTELY false so much as just dubious. I guess I never really thought of it before this discussion because I just assumed that "replaces all weapons" meant that you don't get to have anything else. Might ask about this on the other 40k forum I frequent and see what they say (since that's where I first "confirmed" this idea).

And yeah, that model costs more than my Scout Squad (4 Bolters + Heavy Bolter with Hellfire), but would probably kick their ass I suspect.

EDIT: Made that topic and it seems the consensus is that you can't have a CML on top of a Hammernator according to RAW. But again I'm sure that if you clear it with your opponents all will be well!


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

I just read the Dakka thread, and I end up siding with Quannar, or whatever his name was.

You read it from top to bottom in the data sheet. Any model can replace ALL weapons (which is the powerfist and stormbolter at the time of taking the option) with TH/SS.

Then you get to the next option, which says you can take any heavy weapon. Ok, you head to that spot, you read... AC? No, you've already replaced your bolter. Plasma? Nope, already replaced bolter. CML? Yes, you don't need to replace your stormbolter.

You're simply going in sequential order. There's already a precedent to go with it; take a look at Farsight, for instance. The infamous 'Eight'. nothing can join a monstrous creature, so no one can join TO O'Vesa (the riptide). But any IC can join a group, so O'Vesa can JOIN, just not BE JOINED. 

it's all a timing issue. I would absolutely still allow it, because RAW, every rule is satisfied in the order it was presented to the player.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

CrashGordon94 said:


> EDIT: Made that topic and it seems the consensus is that you can't have a CML on top of a Hammernator according to RAW. But again I'm sure that if you clear it with your opponents all will be well!


:laugh: you know there's a 40k rules discussion thread on this site, eh? Lots of people aren't on Dakka/are here for a reason.

The 'swap all weapons' does not mean 'take any upgrades you want then swap them all out for _x_ and pay all the points', it means the model's hands are full. It was worded that way so that Sergeants could swap their power swords as well, unless you've forgotten that fateful FAQ from 6th edition. I agree that it stops you from taking the CML first then taking the TH/SS, but again...why would you upgrade just to take it away?

Your only point of contention is this:



> The end result is that no swap is made. However in order to get to that point you must have a storm bolter initially. It is a requirement.


In actuality, the requirement for access to the list is having 5/10 models in the squad. Swapping the storm bolter is again just a matter of how many hands a Terminator has, and merely stops you from having to put the SB into a holster at its side since GW provides its kits with 100% WYSIWYG capability and expects hobbyists to follow that guideline. In order to take the assault/plasma cannons or heavy flamer the Codex requires a stormbolter swap, but the CML requires you to have a specific number of models in the squad.

"You must have a storm bolter to not swap it for another weapon" got laughed at by my gaming group in any case so I've got nothing else to add from them.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

You can also look at Space Wolves. They're the only other codex that doesn't have dedicated assault/ranged Terminators. They were written differently, but it is extremely obvious that Space Wolves ARE allowed to take both together. It was simply another of GW's 'let's not use the same wording' issues.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> @MidnightSun, got any thoughts on the subject?


You can totally bring Cyclone Missile Launcher with TH/SS.

That said, everyone other than Deathwing Knights seem like stinky poo really. Maybe the regular Hammernators are okayish?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Xabre said:


> You can also look at Space Wolves.


The SW 'dex is written identically to how the old DA rule was. So simple.



MidnightSun said:


> You can totally bring Cyclone Missile Launcher with TH/SS.
> 
> That said, everyone other than Deathwing Knights seem like stinky poo really. Maybe the regular Hammernators are okayish?


It heartens me to hear you say that. DWK getting a Smash attack is indeed pretty great, though I still like my squads with shooting potential. Plus getting that many TH/SSs sucks.

Thanks for the responses guys, you've both called me enough times when I read things wrong. Good to see this time I read it thoroughly!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> It heartens me to hear you say that. DWK getting a Smash attack is indeed pretty great, though I still like my squads with shooting potential. Plus getting that many TH/SSs sucks.


Are they not AP3 as a basic statline now? I thought that was the case, which makes them baller, don't really give a shit about Smash tbh.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

They are, but I'm surprised to hear you say you like them given your distaste for nemesis force halberds.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If you had to pay points to make DWK Str7 instead of Str6, I'd be down on that option too - Hammerhand is _vital_ if you're in combat, mang.

Being T5/3++ is also a *huge* boon to them being a good combat unit. GKT are a serviceable melee unit, not being _bad_ at combat, but they're not a combat unit either (they're a weird one, to be honest - I'm afraid my GK knowledge has peaked since I've sold the army, so what do I know? :victory


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## CrashGordon94 (May 11, 2015)

Sorry for the delayed reply, was kinda busy... Will also admit I was slightly intimidated but I probably shouldn't be.


ntaw said:


> :laugh: you know there's a 40k rules discussion thread on this site, eh? Lots of people aren't on Dakka/are here for a reason.


Actually no, I managed to miss that forum somehow, don't know why. :wacko:
I only saw 40k general, Tactics and painting around the section, I assumed it was because this site was stricter about rules talk than Dakka, but that doesn't seem to actually be the case. Maybe I was thinking of Librarium Online, where they seem to hyperventilate if you so much as quote a rule.



ntaw said:


> The 'swap all weapons' does not mean 'take any upgrades you want then swap them all out for _x_ and pay all the points', it means the model's hands are full. It was worded that way so that Sergeants could swap their power swords as well, unless you've forgotten that fateful FAQ from 6th edition. I agree that it stops you from taking the CML first then taking the TH/SS, but again...why would you upgrade just to take it away?


For the record, I only had the 6th edition Codex for a little while before the 7E one rocked my army and I barely even saw that FAQ. Only thing I remembered was the Ravenwing Huntmaster being banned from having a Power Axe or Power Lance, which they also seemed to relent on in this book.
(Also replying to Xabre with this point) I was told that there was no such thing as a model having it's hands full (explaining the weird wording of Two-Handed and the Storm Shield's "No extra attacks" property as well as how Command Squad guys can have a Special Weapon, Melee Weapon AND Storm Shield all at once. First heard this regarding the Assault Squad Flamers) or orders of upgrades (except for related ones like "take Missile Launcher -> take Flakk Missiles" or "take Terminator Armor -> take items from the Terminator Weapons list". Don't remember where I heard this), I must say this has thrown me for a loop!



ntaw said:


> In actuality, the requirement for access to the list is having 5/10 models in the squad. Swapping the storm bolter is again just a matter of how many hands a Terminator has, and merely stops you from having to put the SB into a holster at its side since GW provides its kits with 100% WYSIWYG capability and expects hobbyists to follow that guideline. In order to take the assault/plasma cannons or heavy flamer the Codex requires a stormbolter swap, but the CML requires you to have a specific number of models in the squad.


Well, you have 1 per 5 guys pointed at the list but I thought after you arrive at the list you'd need whatever it says at the top to actually use it?
Also seems like replacing it would be to stop you firing the SB instead of whatever fancy weapon was picked (in case they were too far away for the Heavy Flamer or you didn't want to risk Getting Hot with the Plasma Cannon)?



ntaw said:


> "You must have a storm bolter to not swap it for another weapon" got laughed at by my gaming group in any case so I've got nothing else to add from them.


Well, very glad you've got solid consensus there and that nobody will cry foul on your model. And for whatever it might be worth BattleScribe agrees with you (despite the files coming from Dakka), I tried setting up a 5 man squad with all TH/SS before picking a CML and it let me (and it didn't with the other three so it's not just the program forgetting to look at the Storm Bolters).
I am torn apart by this though as one forum insists it's impossible so hard that they had guys hacking the CMLs off their Hammernators and another laughs at the suggestion that it can't happen, really confusing... I hate when stuff like this happens... :cray:
In any case, I probably wouldn't do it, I'm already eating a hole through myself over the thought of possibly running into the Ravenwing HQ Problem or the Deathwing Land Raider Dilemma with future army additions and the only time I've actually thought of taking Hammernators is when it wouldn't be possible anyway (alternate TH/SS Sergeants so their CCWs will actually have AP2 like the normal guys, and so AP2 weapons would have to get through a tougher invulnerable if he's in front! :biggrin or when I didn't really want it anyway (My future Deathwing Command Squad, current loadout idea: 2x TH/SS, Champion, Apothecary and one guy with Chainfist and Plasma Cannon. All AP2 all the time! ...Except Doc).


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