# The Webway Project and the Horus Heresy



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Could the Horus Heresy have been *completely *avoided if the emperor told all the primarchs of his webway project?

Because it seems to be that Horus's paranoia of the emperor's post-crusade plans were derived the moment the emperor headed back to Terra without explaining why.

Magnus's intrusion into the webway would have been avoided obviously if he knew about the project and the emperor wouldn't of had to remain idle while the rebellion was starting and during the siege of terra.

Even other primarchs felt somewhat rejected and hurt when the emperor 'abandoned' them in their eyes, and this is something he could have avoided by explaining his motives. They're like super strong children really. The picture below by pyroriffic really shows this 











Honestly I don't see why the emperor chose to hide his plans from the primarchs, I'm certain they were trustworthy and wouldn't have revealed this secret to anyone if they were included.

And I don't even see why the project was so secretive, it's not like anyone could have sabotaged the whole thing nor would they want to.

Also assuming the Eldar were aware of the emperor's webway project, (seeing as how their farseers have the ability to look into the future and not mentioning the fact that they are the masters and regulators of the webway), don't you think that they could have accepted the inevitable, being the emperor's unlocking of the passage into the webway, and just given him passage and make things easier especially seeing as how they desperately tried to prevent the heresy?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Could the Horus Heresy have been *completely *avoided if the emperor told all the primarchs of his webway project?


No, I doubt it. The occurence of the Heresy relied on millions of seperate tiny events, all that served to alienate Horus. The Emperor not telling him about the Webway Project is just one of these, albeit a fairly major one.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Because it seems to be that Horus's paranoia of the emperor's post-crusade plans were derived the moment the emperor headed back to Terra without explaining why.


I don't think thats entirely true. Horus was always cautious about what would happen to him (and his Brothers and all the Legions) Post-Crusade. The Emperor returning to Terra (whether he told him what for or not) would probably have still acted as the cataclysm in this regard.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Magnus's intrusion into the webway would have been avoided obviously if he knew about the project and the emperor wouldn't of had to remain idle while the rebellion was starting and during the siege of terra.




Magnus did know about the Webway Project on Terra, he was the only Primarch that knew. But that didn't stop him travelling to Terra via the Webway to warn the Emperor.




Malus Darkblade said:


> Even other primarchs felt somewhat rejected and hurt when the emperor 'abandoned' them in their eyes, and this is something he could have avoided by explaining his motives. They're like super strong children really.


From a background perspective its unknown why the Emperor didn't tell the Primarchs. But from our point of view, I think its because that originally we didn't know why the Emperor returned to Terra following Ullanor and niether did the Primarchs. When it was revealed that the Emperor returned from the Crusade to work on the Webway project, it simply stayed the same that the Primarchs weren't told.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Honestly I don't see why the emperor chose to hide his plans from the primarchs, I'm certain they were trustworthy and wouldn't have revealed this secret to anyone if they were included.
> 
> And I don't even see why the project was so secretive, it's not like anyone could have sabotaged the whole thing nor would they want to.


I suppose you could put it down to Chaos. In the sense that Chaos could have distrupted the Webway project (infact they did). Although that would still not wholly justify why he didn't tell the Primarchs.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also assuming the Eldar were aware of the emperor's webway project, (seeing as how their farseers have the ability to look into the future and not mentioning the fact that they are the masters and regulators of the webway)


Since the Fall, the Eldar don't really know the Webway anymore, they don't know its extents or limits, or indeed have any complete maps. And their Farseering is entirely fallible. So its perfectly plausable that they hadn't a clue the Emperor was jacking into their secret domain. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> don't you think that they could have accepted the inevitable, being the emperor's unlocking of the passage into the webway, and just given him passage and make things easier especially seeing as how they desperately tried to prevent the heresy?


Knowing the Eldar, I doubt it


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, I doubt it. The occurence of the Heresy relied on millions of seperate tiny events, all that served to alienate Horus. The Emperor not telling him about the Webway Project is just one of these, albeit a fairly major one.


Horus inherited the emperor's drive, and his ambition. From what I could gather, it was only after receiving supreme command of the imperium and the emperor's leave of absence that caused Horus to question what was really going on with the emperor and his purpose in life.

Prior to this, I'm certain he and the rest of the primarchs were having the time of their lives, just making use of their inherited talents and leaving all the decision making to the big E.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't think thats entirely true. Horus was always cautious about what would happen to him (and his Brothers and all the Legions) Post-Crusade. The Emperor returning to Terra (whether he told him what for or not) would probably have still acted as the cataclysm in this regard.


Having read HH:FG I came upon the notion that once the emperor resigned, horus began to wonder why which culminated into him doubting his purpose and questioning his blind trust in the emperor.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Magnus did know about the Webway Project on Terra, he was the only Primarch that knew. But that didn't stop him travelling to Terra via the Webway to warn the Emperor.


According to the Wiki (yes I know, the bane of the forums), Magnus was aware of the Webway but not of the project the emperor was taking part in.

I prefer this perspective as it makes more sense in regards to his intrusion.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> From a background perspective its unknown why the Emperor didn't tell the Primarchs. But from our point of view, I think its because that originally we didn't know why the Emperor returned to Terra following Ullanor and niether did the Primarchs. When it was revealed that the Emperor returned from the Crusade to work on the Webway project, it simply stayed the same that the Primarchs weren't told.


Yeah I suppose.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I suppose you could put it down to Chaos. In the sense that Chaos could have distrupted the Webway project (infact they did). Although that would still not wholly justify why he didn't tell the Primarchs.


I don't think the emperor's decision not to tell anyone of the project was a result of the chaos power's manipulation but they simply swooped in at the opportunity they were given.

Perhaps it really was true, the emperor wishing to ascend and become one of the chaos powers in order to eradicate them and become the supreme power of the warp.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Since the Fall, the Eldar don't really know the Webway anymore, they don't know its extents or limits, or indeed have any complete maps. And their Farseering is entirely fallible. So its perfectly plausable that they hadn't a clue the Emperor was jacking into their secret domain.


Yeah I suppose but then again, the Eldar know about the emperor's origins/history and I would imagine that would his most closely guarded secret.

And I believe it is mentioned in the Eldar codex that one of the farseers of Ulthwe actually told the emperor of horus's incoming betrayal and apparently he didn't really care or he was truly planning on becoming a power in the warp.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Horus inherited the emperor's drive, and his ambition. From what I could gather, it was only after receiving supreme command of the imperium and the emperor's leave of absence that caused Horus to question what was really going on with the emperor and his purpose in life.





Malus Darkblade said:


> Horus inherited the emperor's drive, and his Prior to this, I'm certain he and the rest of the primarchs were having the time of their lives, just making use of their inherited talents and leaving all the decision making to the big E.


Yes, well becoming Warmaster and the Emperor returning to Terra was the catalyst, but I believe that the underlying alienations and reasons would have still been present - But merely overshadowed by the fact that the Emperor was fighting alongside them, when he left all these doubts and alienations rose to the fore.



Malus Darkblade said:


> According to the Wiki (yes I know, the bane of the forums), Magnus was aware of the Webway but not of the project the emperor was taking part in.




_A Thousand Sons_ makes it clear that Magnus knew what the Emperor was up to, The Emperor infact told Magnus.




Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think the emperor's decision not to tell anyone of the project was a result of the chaos power's manipulation but they simply swooped in at the opportunity they were given.


Aye, but it may well have just been the Emperor's paranoia, which can actually be used to explain quite a few of his actions!



Malus Darkblade said:


> Yeah I suppose but then again, the Eldar know about the emperor's origins/history and I would imagine that would his most closely guarded secret.


The Eldar know about the Emperor's origins? since when?



Malus Darkblade said:


> And I believe it is mentioned in the Eldar codex that one of the farseers of Ulthwe actually told the emperor of horus's incoming betrayal and apparently he didn't really care or he was truly planning on becoming a power in the warp.


Am I right in saying you havn't read very far into the Heresy series? I'll put this in spoiler tags just incase you don't want info revealed before you read on 



in _Fulgrim_, its revealed that Eldrad (the aforementioned farseer of Ulthwe) instead of warning the Emperor directly - tried to warn him via Fulgrim, which ended in disasterous consequences.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, well becoming Warmaster and the Emperor returning to Terra was the catalyst, but I believe that the underlying alienations and reasons would have still been present - But merely overshadowed by the fact that the Emperor was fighting alongside them, when he left all these doubts and alienations rose to the fore.


He may of had them but I'm sure his thoughts were at a normal level, doubtful thoughts that sprout from any intelligent mind and were nowhere near the extent Horus felt after the emperor's absence.

Also if the emperor had merely stayed with them or entrusted them all with his future goals, I don't think the heresy would have happened.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _A Thousand Sons_ makes it clear that Magnus knew what the Emperor was up to, The Emperor infact told Magnus.


Magnus was the second most potent psycher under the empror whereas Horus had no pyscher abilities, so Magnus theoretically posed a potential threat to the emperor's efforts. So it is odd how the emperor would entrust Magnus with this bit of information and not his most favored non-psycher son. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Eldar know about the Emperor's origins? since when?


I've read that piece of information somewhere, I can't recall where though.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Am I right in saying you havn't read very far into the Heresy series? I'll put this in spoiler tags just incase you don't want info revealed before you read on
> 
> in _Fulgrim_, its revealed that Eldrad (the aforementioned farseer of Ulthwe) instead of warning the Emperor directly - tried to warn him via Fulgrim, which ended in disasterous consequences


I've read Fulgrim. But it would seem that there is a contradiction or the emperor was in fact warned at some point.

This was taken from another forum I browsed through:

_"Eldrad is the greatest among us. He is the sun which eclipses the light of our stars. He is Ulthwé and the fate of our kind rests in his hands. His eyes are the keenest, no detail goes unnoticed. Four thousand runes can he cast, guiding our path through torment and war, death and salvation. He is the pathfinder, the seeker, the true guide. Even your race has trembled before his might, though you may not have known it. It was he who guided us to the Ork known as Ghazghkull, and commanded us to steer his path to your world of Armageddon. Ten thousand Eldar lives would have been lost if he had not done so. What sacrifice is a million humans for such a cause?

He knows your affairs better than you do yourself. He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife which would engulf us, just as it engulfed the rest of the galaxy, but your arrogance deafened you to his words. Your stupidity almost destroyed the galaxy, yet you never knew how close the forces of light were to our ultimate defeat. He saw the Great Devourer and warned our kin on Iyanden, even before they had neared our galaxy.

To him all futures are laid out, just as your crude implements of torture are laid out on the cold metal of that shelf. You say we are random and capricious, we say you are vulgar and idiotic. Some of you call us your enemies. All races are our enemy in time. Some of you call us your allies. You are not allies, any more than a butcher’s knife is his ally. You are tools, nothing more. To be used and expended to protect our race, that is your fate.

Your kind think you are so magnificent, yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends, as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh [subject spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!

You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of Earth. ''_
*
Page 39 of 3rd Edition Codex Eldar.*

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247776


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Also if the emperor had merely stayed with them or entrusted them all with his future goals, I don't think the heresy would have happened.


Dont forget though that the Warp Gods were working to cause the Heresy. There were other ways that Horus could have been alienated, even if he was told what the Emperor was up to.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Magnus was the second most potent psycher under the empror whereas Horus had no pyscher abilities, so Magnus theoretically posed a potential threat to the emperor's efforts. So it is odd how the emperor would entrust Magnus with this bit of information and not his most favored non-psycher son.




Well following Magnus' discovery of a Webway gate on Anghoru, he informed the Emperor of his discovery who then informed the Crimson King that he already knew of the Webway and of his project to jack into it on Terra. So its more that he told Magnus because Magnus discovered the Webway for himself.


Aside from that, on a side note all of the Primarchs are implied to have latent psychic abilities. Actually I believe the _Collected Visions_ goes as far as to say they are all actually psykers of varying degrees - which makes sense considering the warp was used heavily in their creation. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> I've read that piece of information somewhere, I can't recall where though.


Well to be honest, there is next-to-no references regarding the Emperor from an Eldar perspective. So I doubt this piece of information exists in a credable source.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I've read Fulgrim. But it would seem that there is a contradiction or the emperor was in fact warned at some point.


_Fulgrim_ changed the fluff (if you take the Heresy novels/newer source material to overide older fluff) from Eldrad warning the Emperor directly to him attempting to warn the Emperor via Fulgrim.



Malus Darkblade said:


> To him all futures are laid out


Which of course they actually are not. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of Earth. ''


Which of course they won't be 

Also take into account that the extract (from an Eldar Ranger about to be executed) would be heavily biased. He obviously wasn't one of the more pragmatic Eldar which are mentioned in the Chaos Daemons Codex.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

possible spoiler..



The emperor knew the heresy would happen didnt he? Doesnt Horus go back in time to when the primarchs were created via some kind of retarded warp storm and crack one of the...incubators? and kill one of the primarchs before hes even born, by accident though. The emperor walks in on him warpdebating and gives Horus the choice, at which point hes already half way there so he finishes up and turns (japanese) completely?

I always thought that this was the warp storm that scattered the primarchs to the stars and the emperor knew Horus would betray him but lets it happen, seeming to indicate that the emperor has some kind of master plan in the works.

but Ive only read the first 4-5 books of the heresy series so....meh


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zeroblackstar said:


> possible spoiler..
> 
> The emperor knew the heresy would happen didnt he? Doesnt Horus go back in time to when the primarchs were created via some kind of retarded warp storm and crack one of the...incubators? and kill one of the primarchs before hes even born, by accident though. The emperor walks in on him warpdebating and gives Horus the choice, at which point hes already half way there so he finishes up and turns (japanese) completely?
> 
> ...


What you refer to is what Horus witnesses in a Chaos-induced dream. It is by no means _exactly_ what happened - In fact the whole thing was designed to make Horus shun the Emperor.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

When Magnus broke through the webway to alert the emperor, why didn't the emperor, despite his setback, take his message into consideration?

He either got the message or it got absorbed by the Webway somehow but what if he did receive it and simply ignored it, just reacting by sending Russ to capture him?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> When Magnus broke through the webway to alert the emperor, why didn't the emperor, despite his setback, take his message into consideration?


Quite simply its unknown.

What I personally would say is that the Emperor had no reason to believe Magnus. The Crimson King had in one moment shattered the Emperor's plans and dreams for Humanity, he had allowed Terra to be flooded in Daemons and had effectively paralysed the Emperor. The Emperor would have likely percieved Magnus as corrupted, and his message therefore null and void.



The Emperor Alone recognised this rapturous angel, and his heart broke to see it. 'Magnus,' he said. 'Father,' replied Magnus. Their minds met and in that moment of frozen connection the galaxy changed forever....

He had tried to deliver his warning, showing his father what he had seen and what he knew. It hadn't mattered. Nothing he could have said would have outweighed or undone the colossal mistake he had made in coming to Terra. The treachery of Horus was swept away, an afterthought in the wake of the destruction Magnus had unwittingly unleashed.... But that wasn't the worst of it, not by a long way. It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie...




Malus Darkblade said:


> He either got the message or it got absorbed by the Webway somehow but what if he did receive it and simply ignored it, just reacting by sending Russ to capture him?


We don't know exactly how the Emperor reacted. But the phrase 'and his heart broke to see it' gives us some indicator. The Emperor's hand was forced, he had to destroy Magnus and the Thousand Sons. They were corrupted and unwitting pawns of Chaos and they had undone all his great works, they deserved to perish.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Slightly off topic but in the pic at the top I wonder why Corax is shown reading porn. All the other primarchs seem to be acting in character but this is imo completely out of character for Corax.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Quite simply its unknown.
> 
> What I personally would say is that the Emperor had no reason to believe Magnus. The Crimson King had in one moment shattered the Emperor's plans and dreams for Humanity, he had allowed Terra to be flooded in Daemons and had effectively paralysed the Emperor. The Emperor would have likely percieved Magnus as corrupted, and his message therefore null and void.
> 
> ...


I think the section you posted shows us exactly how he felt. 

He disregarded Magnus's warning because he trusted Horus so completely and over anyone and the magnitude of Magnus's actions overwhelmed him at the time. 

Also I think the rapturous angel was Magnus no? I'm thinking they both appeared in some psychic dream-like realm and the emperor saw a form which eventually turned out to be Magnus? Just pure speculation 



zerachiel76 said:


> Slightly off topic but in the pic at the top I wonder why Corax is shown reading porn. All the other primarchs seem to be acting in character but this is imo completely out of character for Corax.


Yeah I wondered why as well, I think he just randomly did it or based it off something he read. And no Omegon too.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I think the section you posted shows us exactly how he felt.


Well kind of. The only indicator we get is that 'and his heart broke to see it'. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also I think the rapturous angel was Magnus no? I'm thinking they both appeared in some psychic dream-like realm and the emperor saw a form which eventually turned out to be Magnus? Just pure speculation




Yeah, sorry I should have made it more clear, the 'rapturous angel' was Magnus, and was described as thus because essentially he appeared as a monster when he emerged from the Webway.


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