# Australian company may pursue legal action against Games Workshop



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

What's happening with the Eldar release

Australian company, The Combat Company, are looking into taking legal action against GW over the supply of Eldar miniatures to indie stores. 

I have no idea how the legalities of all this work so I'll leave it at that.


Discuss.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I'm not sure how the legalities of this work either. I guess how viable it is will come down to the exact agreement they have, assuming there is one in writing of course.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah it comes down to the contract between them and GW. GW as a whole is cutting down on independent sellers to try and contain the profits for themselves imo.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

From what I can gather looking at a couple of sources Australia has specific laws that protect independent companies from monopolies, whether this will actually include GW or not remains to be seen. 

I can understand people and companies getting pissed off with the Tau release and now Eldar being understocked, there are cries of "Conspiracy!" flying round already as indies are losing out to GW bricks and mortar and online store for new releases.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There is no Monopoly though, GW and it's games are the property of it's self it's like someone accusing apple of having a monopoly on ipods.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> From what I can gather looking at a couple of sources Australia has specific laws that protect independent companies from monopolies, whether this will actually include GW or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I can understand people and companies getting pissed off with the Tau release and now Eldar being understocked, there are cries of "Conspiracy!" flying round already as indies are losing out to GW bricks and mortar and online store for new releases.


I hardly consider it a conspiracy if that many people are ordering direct from GW and the webstore that GW has to do this to meet their demands first. All GW said was they don't know if they could completely fill the order. This was before pre-orders went up so it sounds like someone is flipping their shit of GW trying to give a courtesy heads up.

I am willing to bet GW did increase the runs on Eldar as much as they reasonably could without hurting their other prep work after the Tau supply issue came up, but aren't sure if they have enough to go around. I mean the company is talking about GW saying they might not be able to completely fill at *$10K* order completely right away. I don't know, but that sounds reasonable considering GW's production limitations.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> There is no Monopoly though, GW and it's games are the property of it's self it's like someone accusing apple of having a monopoly on ipods.


What I think the issue is, and this is purely speculation, is that indies are supplied with a product by GW, they have contracts and or licences to sell a product and be supplied with that product. GW are not supplying them and, intentionally or not, they are damaging those companies as a result. 

If GW decided that they didn't want to supply indies any more they could probably do so with no legal issues, it would be a PR nightmare for them but they could legally do it. IF, on the other hand, GW simply 'accidentally' don't produce enough stock to supply these stores they can play the game of being 'surprised' by the success of the range while screwing the indies out of business.



Zion said:


> I hardly consider it a conspiracy if that many people are ordering direct from GW and the webstore that GW has to do this to meet their demands first.


You're more than likely right, I don't know for certain and definitely don'y have all the facts to say one way or the other, I'm just pointing out what is being said and speculating on it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Its not about monopoly its about anti-competitive practices, being the manufactor and distributor as well as a retailer can land gw in the shit if they dont supply indies in a timely fashion, problem is proving it and making gw do something about it without loosing the right to stock GW products.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Well. The Australian company won't be keeping any customer loyalty with their actions. They are prepared to stop selling and endorsing GW products, which in turn forces the gamers they supply to deal with GW stores or online. So, they lose money and GW wins. 

They could simply tell their patrons that due to GW delays, their product will be delayed. Even those ordering direct from GW will be delayed. The trick is to have customer loyalty. 

When Tau were delayed, the 4 Tau players that I know of at my LGS didn't turn to the nearby GW store or the website. They waited to make their purchase. In the case of some models, they waited almost a month. But all that late arriving product has sold to loyal customers who waited. 

I, for one, am hoping for an Eldar delay. It gives me time to save more money for the things I want.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Archon Dan said:


> Well. The Australian company won't be keeping any customer loyalty with their actions. They are prepared to stop selling and endorsing GW products, which in turn forces the gamers they supply to deal with GW stores or online. So, they lose money and GW wins.
> 
> They could simply tell their patrons that due to GW delays, their product will be delayed. Even those ordering direct from GW will be delayed. The trick is to have customer loyalty.
> 
> ...


I think you missed a bit



> You have the right to buy GW from wherever you want. We will continue to sell their products and take every single dollar we can out of their direct sales channels.


They do intend to keep selling GW stuff, they just won't be endorsing or supporting tournaments or GW events.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Im sorry but nothing has changed here.... Yes the demand for certain armies has increased over the past few releases but we are becoming a more technologically advanced society... most people do most shopping online now more then ever. GW has NEVER made sure the independent retailer was satisfied before their own stores and their web store. This will never change.

Honestly I don't see a lawsuit here... GW has found a loop hole that basically allows them to make sure the customers that order from them directly or go into their stores are attended to first before others. Unless there is some contract with these independents I cant see this lawsuit going to far before the independents pull out because they don't have the financial backing to actually pay for all the court costs.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I feel like it would be quite the shit show for all the Xenos races to have shipping delays but the Space Marine boxes to come out on time. I guess time will tell. There's plenty of products that my store wants to be able to sell but aren't available for wholesale in Canada yet due to production needs in Americuh where they are made. Our customers are saddened that we do not have what they want, but ultimately they keep coming back knowing that the day we're able to get it in they will have it. They can go online and purchase anything they want, but people will still wait to buy it from their local store. If we went and bitched about it we'd only shoot ourselves in the foot as our customers don't need to hear companies defamed and the company likely wouldn't want to deal with us.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Honestly, I don't see why GW don't just pull the plug on independents (aside from the huge number of actual reasons like keeping the hobby alive in areas with no GW). It's the way they seem to have been going. If they want to only sell their product in their stores and on their site, just do it.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Think you nailed it with the 'continuing to sell their product in areas without a GW store'. Its probably pretty much the only reason they still support independents.

Afterall, a lot of people still like seeing a product for real in a store before buying it, or simply don't want to have to wait in or can't wait in for a delivery, so having a physical store they can go to is a bonus.

Despite GW being the only games company in the world that runs and maintains its own bricks and mortar stores, they can't afford to have them everywhere. So having other stores sell stuff for them is a bonus....

In all reality though... while GW may be screwing independents, really all they're doing is looking after their own customers first, rather then looking after someone elses.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah it comes down to the contract between them and GW. GW as a whole is cutting down on independent sellers to try and contain the profits for themselves imo.


Doubtful. Independents give them money and GW has less stock just sitting around. Plus independents (depending on their level of involvement with GW) have to carry certain amounts of stock of particular items thus GW always has money from them coming in.

This is a more complex issue of the amount of supply versus demand. Demand is WAY overpowering supply right now so GW is rushing to try and get more things made but can't always keep up because other things still need to be produced. That 2 week period where GW was playing catch up for Tau? Likely hurt the amount of Eldar we have available now.

Hell that company was ordering $10,000 worth of merchandise. That's a pretty big order for a pre-release. I can understand why GW had to say "hey, we don't think we can fill all of this right away."

I honestly don't think GW is intentionally screwing over this independent, or really any independent. I think we're seeing more ripples than we could expect from the Tau release hitting us now. With this tight release schedule I don't see an immediate fix for this though as every attempt to make up for the problem now will only hurt a later release. 

Maybe if we're really seeing an Apoc release in July we'll get that chance to catch up, but I don't really know for sure. This is a definite wait and see how it all plays out.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> GW as a whole is cutting down on independent sellers to try and contain the profits for themselves imo.


Whether GW sells the minis or someone else sells the mini, GW still profits. 

The move to favour their own shops over independents is a move to protect their own shops which they can better control the way that their product is presented to their market. 

I see it as protecting our enjoyment of the GW shops as customers over a faceless online retailer.



normtheunsavoury said:


> From what I can gather looking at a couple of sources Australia has specific laws that protect independent companies from monopolies, whether this will actually include GW or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I can understand people and companies getting pissed off with the Tau release and now Eldar being understocked, there are cries of "Conspiracy!" flying round already as indies are losing out to GW bricks and mortar and online store for new releases.


The amount of stock produced for a release will be a carefully regulated thing. You have to pay on delivery which for GW is a long time before distribution so there is a limit to the funds they can have tied up in each new release. Given that there is a HEAP of new releases this year there will be a very discreet and tight budget for each release. They can only "afford" to produce so many minis for each release.

As for the Aus law

http://transition.accc.gov.au/conten...20overview.pdf

The only test case of the Trade Practises Act in Oz :

http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi...16&context=blr

In a nutshell 

_"A brief recital of the facts of Queensland Wire provides contextual background for analysis of the above elements. BHP, responsible for approximately 97 per cent of Australia's steel output, produced Y-bar30 which it sold exclusively to its wholly owned subsidiary Australian Wire Industries (AWI). AWI produced fence posts from the Y-bar and sold these as a producer. Queensland Wire Industries (QWI) sought supply of the Ybar produced by BHP in order to produce fence posts and compete against AWI in the rural fencing market. BHP offered to supply the Y-bar at prices which were so high that its conduct amounted to a constructive refusal to supply."
_

So the Trade Practises Act really only applies when the supplier is the SOLE supplier of a given product and that competition in that market relies on that product. While GW does dominate the miniatures market them not supplying their miniatures to a given retailer isn't going to affect the market. 

If they were the major supplier of resin however it might be a different story


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Whether GW sells the minis or someone else sells the mini, GW still profits.
> 
> The move to favour their own shops over independents is a move to protect their own shops which they can better control the way that their product is presented to their market.
> 
> ...



Not a lawyer, but it could fall under Misuse of Market Power


> About Misuse of Market Power
> 
> Section 46(1) prohibits a corporation with substantial market power taking advantage of that market power for a prohibited purpose. The prohibited purposes include
> 
> ...


Also, you don't have to be a monopoly (or even dominant in the market) or sole provider of a type of item to be able to abuse your market position. Universal Music was hit for abuse of market power, even with having only 15% of the market. 

Vertical integration (that is where a company controls retail and production/distribution) is a complicated thing, as your responsibilities as a supplier might not match up perfectly to your best interests for your retail arm, but if you try to use your position to hurt opposition retailers in favor of your own stores (and it can be proven it's not for a legitimate reason), you might be in trouble. Of course, proving it is a different thing entirely. 

Also, as I said, I'm not a lawyer so I might have the wrong parts applying, but I would wager it is something you could legitimately sue over, though winning is another matter entirely.



Magpie_Oz said:


> I see it as protecting our enjoyment of the GW shops as customers over a faceless online retailer.


Ah, so all independents are faceless retailers, deserving of scorn, and should be happy with whatever scraps GW happens to throw their way? Wonderful attitude there. Many of the Combat Companies customers are behind it on this one, and almost all the posts on the thread they made on Wargamer AU have been supportive.

Also, Hey Bits&Kits, how do you like being a Faceless Online Retailer?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Was it $10,000 Ozzie money? If so that order was roughly the American equal to two Land Raiders .... how could they not fill that order?

OT: I understand that they have to fill stock up in THEIR stores, but after the debacle that was the Tau release, they should have been better prepared. This is not rocket science and it is not like these people are just getting into the market. 

Come to think of it, if this release is 'Sold Out' as well, a perfect justification for a rather large price increase, larger than what would be normal. I seriously dislike corporate greed ... it is so fucking annoying.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

maddermax said:


> Not a lawyer, but it could fall under Misuse of Market Power
> 
> Also, you don't have to be a monopoly (or even dominant in the market) or sole provider of a type of item to be able to abuse your market position. Universal Music was hit for abuse of market power, even with having only 15% of the market.
> 
> ...


The Universal Music "hit" was for them bribing people? 

You making the assumption that "the market" = "sale of GW miniatures" which simply isn't the case. If GW said something like "we won't supply you if you stock any other brand of miniatures" then that could be seen as using their dominance of the market to keep others out. They aren't doing that.

All they have said in this case is that they can't guarantee the supply, not that they won't supply. If anything they are getting shafted for simply being honest with the retailer.

Retailing your own manufactured product is a fairly shallow for of vertical integration. That really doesn't come in until GW starts doing things like buying the major plastic/resin supplier, buying the die manufacturers, print shops and so forth.

GW seeks only to control the sale of it's products and I have seen nothing in their actions that seeks to exclude any other miniatures manufacturers from the market. If anything GW's broad popularity is what gives the smaller manufacturers some form of leverage into the market.

How many mini manufacturers out that have product that are pretty obviously trading on the market preformance of GW products or targeted at being compatible with 40k and warhammer, there are heaps.



maddermax said:


> Ah, so all independents are faceless retailers, deserving of scorn, and should be happy with whatever scraps GW happens to throw their way? Wonderful attitude there. Many of the Combat Companies customers are behind it on this one, and almost all the posts on the thread they made on Wargamer AU have been supportive.
> 
> Also, Hey Bits&Kits, how do you like being a Faceless Online Retailer?


You didn't actually read my post at all did you.

Where did I say Independent Retailers are deserving of scorn?
Where did I talk of the scraps that GW throws away?

Check your own attitude before you launch at mine mate.

With an Online shop can I:
Take a 15 minute drive and talk to the guy who runs the shop?
Get advice off him about various aspects of the hobby?
Get a game?
Meet others in the hobby?
etc

No online shop can do that, the GW shop model serves my hobby better than an online one and if the higher overhead costs mean higher prices then I am willing to pay that and I appreciate GW's loyalty to me in their efforts to keep the bricks and mortar shops operating.

Bits seems like a fair enough bloke from what I have seen on here, but if I walked past him in the street I wouldn't know him from Adam, not so with my local GW bloke. That might mean SFA to you but I think it important.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

OIIIIIIO said:


> OT: I understand that they have to fill stock up in THEIR stores, but after the debacle that was the Tau release, they should have been better prepared. This is not rocket science and it is not like these people are just getting into the market.


There is a whole lot more to all this than "This how much we reckon the (insert new release name here) will sell so this is how much we will make"

The money that GW outlays for each of these new releases must be quite a sum. If we look at the Reaper Bones Kickstarter that raised $3Mill for a "new release" of older minatures we see that has been going on for over 12 months and the product has still not been supplied to all, 17000 backers

So that gives us a hint that the 6th ed releases have probably been in the pipeline for at least 12 months and probably a whole lot longer and my guess is GW is supplying a hell of a lot more than 17,000 buyers.

The production lead time is a great deal more than the pre-release order period.

Since October last year we've had CSM, WofC, The Hobbit, DA, Daemons, Tau , High Elves and Eldar.

So if we say that GW is putting 4 mill (a guess might be less might be more) on the line for each new release that means they have a liability of around 30 mill just for the releases to date, with more to come. 

The reason why previous releases have been slow in coming is they have waited for each outlay to be recouped before moving onto the next one, not so with the current release schedule so they have no option but to limit the manufacturing run of each release.

My guess is that the volume of stock released with each update matches the expenditures so that, in time, the release is "paid for". That will take a few months to achieve tho and in that time the next releases are on the way.

The economics are pretty simple. Lots of stock of a few releases or less stock of a lot more releases.

So at the moment we are enjoying bitching about a lack of stock as opposed to last year when we bitched about slow updates.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Archon Dan said:


> Well. The Australian company won't be keeping any customer loyalty with their actions. They are prepared to stop selling and endorsing GW products, which in turn forces the gamers they supply to deal with GW stores or online. So, they lose money and GW wins.
> 
> They could simply tell their patrons that due to GW delays, their product will be delayed. Even those ordering direct from GW will be delayed. The trick is to have customer loyalty.
> 
> ...





Magpie_Oz said:


> I see it as protecting our enjoyment of the GW shops as customers over a faceless online retailer.





Magpie_Oz said:


> With an Online shop can I:
> Take a 15 minute drive and talk to the guy who runs the shop?
> Get advice off him about various aspects of the hobby?
> Get a game?
> ...


Quotes like this show that you guys have no idea who or what the Combat Company is.

Yes, Combat Company is an online retailer. But they are also one of the major tournament sponsors around the country. Cancon, 3++con, Event Horizon, Leviathan, Lords of Terra... You know what, fuck it, here's a link http://www.thecombatcompany.com/we-support/. The "faceless online people who just want to profit without adding to the community" argument is utter bullshit with respect to this company. If you were talking about someone else, like maybe Black Cultist or any of the overseas places people have been buying from for years I'd agree you have a point, but here you are wrong.

Fact of the matter is whilst GW has basically never supported the Australian tournament scene, Combat Company has for a number of years. As an Australian competitive 40k player, I find it very sad to have one of our major sponsors back out because GW insists on maintaining an outdated B&M model.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Being important to your hobby doesn't make it important to mine. You are correct i have no idea who TCC is , that's the point. The day they open a shop in my town that may change, until then the only effect they have on me is to lessen the viability of my local shop with their pricing.

If the hobby goes online only it will disappear in a few years. The 'out dated' B&M is what keeps the out dated hobby going.

They obviously have no real commitment to the hobby if GW saying they cannot guarantee the order makes them.drop the support so quickly. All they are upset about is having to share the booming popularity of the new releases.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm going to preface what I am about to say by mentioning that the only purchase I have ever made from this store was a bottle of glue and some dice when I rocked up to a tournament horrendously unprepared. The only vested interest I have in these guys is tournament support.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Being important to your hobby doesn't make it important to mine. You are correct i have no idea who .TCC is , that's the point. The day they open a shop in my town that may change, until then the only effect they have on me is to lessen the viability of my local shop with their pricing.


Thing is, it's not just important to my hobby, it's important to a hell of a lot of other peoples as well. We're talking about a store that pretty much single handedly supports the Sydney tournament scene with prize support, and yet these guys somehow do not support the hobby because they are a big mean online store than hands out discounts?

But hey, apparently fucking over the online store that supports pretty much all the major tournaments for the most populous city in the goddamn country is totally justified when they have a negative effect on your personal LGS which is easily mitigated by the regulars in your LGS simply agreeing to not buy online.



Magpie_Oz said:


> If the hobby goes online only it will disappear in a few years. The 'out dated' B&M is what keeps the out dated hobby going.


Bullshit. 

B&M is a horrendously outdated model for a company like GW. They need to choose whether they want to be a supplier or retailer; otherwise they're competing with many of their own customers (ie independent B&M retailers as well as online stores.)

By your logic, every other game should require their own stores, which is nonsense. Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, Dust and Dystopian Wars are all going strong in our area off the back of independent retailers (especially the 1st two, they're booming like crazy), and GW could be doing the same by simply closing their own inefficient retail division and leaving it to LGSs.



Magpie_Oz said:


> They obviously have no real commitment to the hobby if GW saying they cannot guarantee the order makes them.drop the support so quickly. All they are upset about is having to share the booming popularity of the new releases.


They have had real commitment to the hobby, and continue to have real commitment to the hobby. Don't confuse loyalty to GW with commitment to the hobby.

They can support the hobby without supporting GW games. This just means that they take all the time, money and effort they have been putting into supporting GW systems and instead dump it into Warmachine and Infinity.

They're not upset about having to "share the booming popularity of upcoming releases", they're upset at GW deliberately trying to minimise their market share after they have spent so much time supporting and furthering GW games.

By the way, this doesn't just affect online stores. This move is going to affect all independent retailers, regardless of their physical presence. It's an obvious ploy by GW to force people to buy through their own retail and direct sales channels rather than their LGSs (which may or may not offer a discount) or online (which generally will offer a discount).


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Was it $10,000 Ozzie money? If so that order was roughly the American equal to two Land Raiders .... how could they not fill that order?


Sarcasm aside, you have a point. 
A $10,000 Aus order is roughly $4,000 - $6,000 US for GW product. 
Despite our near parity.

It doesn't seem like such a massive order really.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Kettu said:


> Sarcasm aside, you have a point.
> A $10,000 Aus order is roughly $4,000 - $6,000 US for GW product.
> Despite our near parity.
> 
> It doesn't seem like such a massive order really.


Remember though, retailers pay 60% on normal merchandise and 70% on direct order only stuff. So that stretches further than it would for most of us.

Not to mention this is $10k AUD of JUST the Eldar stuff for the release from the sounds of things. Even at $6K US that's a lot of stuff.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

It is a lot of stuff, but these guys supply a lot of people.

Think of these guys as the Wayland of Australia- pretty much the go-to online store if you feel like buying within the country, but don't buy from an LGS.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

coke123 said:


> We're talking about a store that pretty much single handedly supports *the Sydney tournament scene* with prize support, and yet these guys somehow do not support the hobby because they are a big mean online store than hands out discounts?


And that is my point.

Your scene is being supported at the expense of mine. 
GW has a shop in my town, TCC doesn't so why would I give two flying fucks about them when they clearly don't give two about me. 
The independent retailer who stocked GW went out of business 4 years ago, GW opened a shop 2 years ago.
If TCC supported the tournaments in every town the GW has a shop then you might have some sort of leg to stand on, but they don't so GW have far wider reaching support for the hobby. 

Even more so now that TCC has pulled all of it's support for GW events.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

coke123 said:


> It is a lot of stuff, but these guys supply a lot of people.
> 
> Think of these guys as the Wayland of Australia- pretty much the go-to online store if you feel like buying within the country, but don't buy from an LGS.


Which is exactly the reason GW will be reigning them in, GW want the Aus/NZ customer base in there stores or FLGs, they dont want them buying overseas, they dont want them buying from a large over powerful single online store who takes the entire country's allocation of stock, GW want one large online store and that is GW, anyone else has to feed on the scraps GW allows them.

Also i dont think the combat company has a case, GW are simply sharing out there indie allocated stock fairly between the indies in that region, which if your a small indie you would be very pleased with, imagine your one of the 24 small indies down under and you were told for example that you were not getting any stock at all for the eldar release because the combat company had placed an order first and taken all the indie allocation.

The problem stems from such a short pre order time scale, its not giving GW enough time to produce stock, they are plucking a figure out of the air based on what they expect Eldar to sell (likely based on the last release) in any given region, they then produce that stock and ship it, the management will then allocate the stock to stores and to online and to indies and lets be fair they have cut it fairly 33% GW stores 33% GW online and 33% indies, then they have divided up the indie stock fairly by dividing the total amount of stock equally between all indies, now some might want less than the allocation and some will get thrown back into the pool which will no doubt go out to those who want more, but basically all GW are doing is saying to indies, go ahead take your pre order but remember we supply you ,you dont dictate to us, when word gets around that Indies cant suppy on release or even for upto or more than a month people who really want the stuff will either buy from GW or goto a GW store/FLGS which is what GW is trying to achieve anyway.

Also dont mistake supporting the community/hobby by an indie as anything more than marketing and ultimately making them money.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> Also dont mistake supporting the community/hobby by an indie as anything more than marketing and ultimately making them money.


This. 

All companies involved in the hobby have this as an ultimate goal for sure. However, GW has the resources to extend into more marginal areas.


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## evilempire (May 28, 2013)

Kettu said:


> Sarcasm aside, you have a point.
> A $10,000 Aus order is roughly $4,000 - $6,000 US for GW product.
> Despite our near parity.
> 
> It doesn't seem like such a massive order really.



Hang on... I must have been living in an alternate reality for the past 12 months... cause from what I remember the AUD was actually worth more than the USD until just last week,and even now still trades at around 92c.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

evilempire said:


> Hang on... I must have been living in an alternate reality for the past 12 months... cause from what I remember the AUD was actually worth more than the USD until just last week,and even now still trades at around 92c.


In exchange rate yes, in buying power no.

For 10k in Aus you can by about 160 Tac Squads, in the US you'd get about 270


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## evilempire (May 28, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> And that is my point.
> 
> Your scene is being supported at the expense of mine.
> GW has a shop in my town, TCC doesn't so why would I give two flying fucks about them when they clearly don't give two about me.
> ...


So one of your argument about this entire thing is that you think TCC is being selfish and childish, and you base this on the fact that they don't support YOUR gaming scene?

Wow, that is so full of fail on so many levels.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

evilempire said:


> So one of your argument about this entire thing is that you think TCC is being selfish and childish, and you base this on the fact that they don't support YOUR gaming scene?
> 
> Wow, that is so full of fail on so many levels.


Try reading all my posts mate.
I don't recall mentioning selfish and childish at any point.

TCC's , now withdrawn, support of some tournaments in major centres is a far cry from the level of support that GW provides globally.

There are far more people who don't play in tournaments than there are who do. GW supports all of them equally.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> And that is my point.
> 
> Your scene is being supported at the expense of mine.
> GW has a shop in my town, TCC doesn't so why would I give two flying fucks about them when they clearly don't give two about me.
> ...


I'm not going to ask where you live, as it would be stupid to ask you to give out personal details over the internet, but do you live in an actual town, as opposed to a city? If so, are you actually comparing the effect on a much smaller town to the impact this will have on the Sydney scene, which I assume is much, much larger?

This move affects far more people than TCC's business model does.

Also, TCC has only pulled support after being repeatedly shafted by GW. They stopped support after trying to help support the community, and they got punished anyways. Any LGS that got treated the same way after providing support would do the same; for instance a lot of places banned the Death From the Skies expansion after that was made Direct Only.



bitsandkits said:


> Which is exactly the reason GW will be reigning them in, GW want the Aus/NZ customer base in there stores or FLGs, they dont want them buying overseas, they dont want them buying from a large over powerful single online store who takes the entire country's allocation of stock, GW want one large online store and that is GW, anyone else has to feed on the scraps GW allows them.


I get this completely, I'm just saying that it's shit.



bitsandkits said:


> Also i dont think the combat company has a case, GW are simply sharing out there indie allocated stock fairly between the indies in that region, which if your a small indie you would be very pleased with, imagine your one of the 24 small indies down under and you were told for example that you were not getting any stock at all for the eldar release because the combat company had placed an order first and taken all the indie allocation.


Thing is, it's not really a fair distribution, when GW hoards 66% of stock for itself, and then allocates 33% for every other retailer in the region.

Although I think you're correct in that TCC doesn't have a legal case, GW Oz is very, very careful when dealing with the ACCC. It just seems like poor form.



bitsandkits said:


> The problem stems from such a short pre order time scale, its not giving GW enough time to produce stock, they are plucking a figure out of the air based on what they expect Eldar to sell (likely based on the last release) in any given region, they then produce that stock and ship it, the management will then allocate the stock to stores and to online and to indies and lets be fair they have cut it fairly 33% GW stores 33% GW online and 33% indies, then they have divided up the indie stock fairly by dividing the total amount of stock equally between all indies, now some might want less than the allocation and some will get thrown back into the pool which will no doubt go out to those who want more, but basically all GW are doing is saying to indies, go ahead take your pre order but remember we supply you ,you dont dictate to us, when word gets around that Indies cant suppy on release or even for upto or more than a month people who really want the stuff will either buy from GW or goto a GW store/FLGS which is what GW is trying to achieve anyway.


I get this, although I don't think that's a terribly fair distribution, considering a lot of their Direct stuff is stuff that would have gone through the stores anyways (from experience). No one would buy from Direct when there's multiple indie B&M stores who give discounts, let alone internet retailers.



bitsandkits said:


> Also dont mistake supporting the community/hobby by an indie as anything more than marketing and ultimately making them money.


Never said anything to the contrary, but so is the whole B&M premise. I don't see how one form of support is any more or less moneygrubbing than another.

I just don't get this whole notion of these guys being an online retailer, and therefore any form of support they provide is moot, just because they compete with physical retailers.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Try reading all my posts mate.
> I don't recall mentioning selfish and childish at any point.
> 
> TCC's , now withdrawn, support of some tournaments in major centres is a far cry from the level of support that GW provides globally.


TCC tried to help out, and GW told them to fuck off. Anyone would withdraw support after that. Trying to compare the support given by an independently owned store to that given by a multinational corporation is stupid, of course TCC cannot provide the same level of support.



Magpie_Oz said:


> There are far more people who don't play in tournaments than there are who do. GW supports all of them equally.


lolololololololololololololololol!

You think that GW supports competitive and casual players equally? Bullshit!

GW doesn't give a fuck about the tournament scene. Everything they do is specifically catered towards the endeavour of the casual hobbyist. If GW supported tournament play, then we'd still have 'Ard Boyz. Oh wait, what happened there. JJ even goes on about how this game should be a fluffy wonderland made of clouds and rainbows, with no concern to how tight a game is.

Tournament play is solely supported by the community, including the efforts of independent sponsors, which GW doesn't recognise. This means that the tournament scene requires its support to remain economic viability, and so any move that destabilises that viability is of direct negative consequence to competitive players. Therefore, this move goes directly against a significant portion of the community (if not the majority).

Not to mention the negative effects this has on independent B&M stores, which are pretty much being put in the same position as TCC.


----------



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

coke123 said:


> I'm not going to ask where you live, as it would be stupid to ask you to give out personal details over the internet, but do you live in an actual town, as opposed to a city? If so, are you actually comparing the effect on a much smaller town to the impact this will have on the Sydney scene, which I assume is much, much larger?


I live in a regional city. 150,000 population. I'm not sure what you're getting at.



coke123 said:


> This move affects far more people than TCC's business model does.


What do you mean ? 



coke123 said:


> Also, TCC has only pulled support after being repeatedly shafted by GW.


In what way?



coke123 said:


> They stopped support after trying to help support the community, and they got punished anyways.


How ?



coke123 said:


> Any LGS that got treated the same way after providing support would do the same; for instance a lot of places banned the Death From the Skies expansion after that was made Direct Only.


Again I don't understand what this means. Are you saying that LGS's banned a rules compendium from being played in their shop because it was direct only? 



coke123 said:


> lolololololololololololololololol!
> 
> You think that GW supports competitive and casual players equally? Bullshit!
> 
> GW doesn't give a fuck about the tournament scene. Everything they do is specifically catered towards the endeavour of the casual hobbyist.


So you as a tournament player can't go into a GW shop and get the same response that I do? 

What I said was "GW treats us all equally", your confusing that with "GW doesn't support tournaments"

If you seek to differentiate yourself from the larger percentage of the hobby because you play tournaments then that's your look out but don't kid yourself that GW should treat you better/differently because of it.

GW don't support tournaments for what ever reasons, probably cost v benefit.

TCC supported it for their own reasons but now they have over night dropped all support yet some how GW forced their hand on that? How is that even possible if GW have nothing to do with tournaments?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Lets put this in a different light.

I have a special brand of pet food, that I have retailed to the point that I have stores world wide selling nothing but this pet food. I also contract smaller 'pet food related' stores to have some of my pet food on the shelf in their stores.

I have a new and improved formula of pet food coming out. 

I would not bat a eyelash making sure the stores I own and the online store I maintain had a solid supply of this new formula at release. After that I would divy out the rest of my current pre-release supply to those stores that I have contracted shelf space. 

I would look like a complete fool if my new formula pet food was out of stock in my own personal chain of stores and the personal online site I have for it. 

Why should one of these stores that I contracted to have my stuff on their shelf demand more stock because they happened to have pet races using the pet food. How does this change the fact I would look like a fool if at release my own stores and online store were out of stock.

It wouldn't change anything, I would tell them they could have the pet food order when I could fill it while maintaining my system.


That is currently what has happened here, and I agree with Mags that this company is just throwing a temper tantrum because they did not get their Umpa Lumpa now.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So you as a tournament player can't go into a GW shop and get the same response that I do?
> 
> What I said was GW treats us all equally, your confusing that with GW should support tournaments something which they choose not to do.
> 
> If you seek to differentiate yourself from the larger percentage of the hobby because you play tournaments then that's your look out but don't kid yourself that GW should treat you better/differently because of it.


Actually, I can't.

I've been routinely snubbed by the manager at my local GW on the basis that he won't be able to sell me a battleforce or whatever other derpy kit (which are pretty terrible) they are trying to flog, even when I'm trying to make a different purchase. So I'm not treated equally.

Also, you didn't actually say they were treated equally, you said they were supported equally, which is a completely different kettle of fish. My local GW runs big apocalypse battles and has fairly regular campaigns, but hardly ever runs competitive play. Clearly their support goes to casual gaming, which frankly I don't have a problem with, so long as GW doesn't interfere with tournament play, which is what they are doing here (albeit indirectly).

I don't ask that GW treat me any differently. I just ask that they not mess with the people who are willing to provide what I want out of the hobby, especially when it's the primary reason I spent money with them in the first place.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

scscofield said:


> Lets put this in a different light.
> 
> I have a special brand of pet food, that I have retailed to the point that I have stores world wide selling nothing but this pet food. I also contract smaller 'pet food related' stores to have some of my pet food on the shelf in their stores.
> 
> ...


some cunning individual will then purchase this pet food and break it down in to smaller meat portions and repackage it and sell it at a premium for those who prefer chicken chunks but dont want beef chunks. :so_happy:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

coke123 said:


> Actually, I can't.
> 
> I've been routinely snubbed by the manager at my local GW on the basis that he won't be able to sell me a battleforce or whatever other derpy kit (which are pretty terrible) they are trying to flog, even when I'm trying to make a different purchase. So I'm not treated equally.
> 
> ...


sorry but you cant indirectly interfere with something, TCC are the ones are making the call to alter how they support tournaments as a pretty petty response to GW telling them they cant have the shit tone of stock they ordered because they dont have enough stock.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I'm with Magpie_Oz and scscofield on this one. Any company would be insane to supply other people before their own stores, and they didn't tell anyone to fuck off, they only said they wouldn't be able to fulfil that order.

If I put an order in with tesco for home delivery and they told me I couldn't have all the items on my order, I wouldn't spit my dummy and think they'd told me to fuck off, I'd think they couldn't send me all my stuff and be thankful they let me know.

Sad but true, they haven't done anything wrong. It might not be what TCC want, but it's not wrong.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

This goes to show you why at the end of the day GW has the reputation, it has especially in Australia. Being at the arse end of the world doesn't help our cause.

Also mentioned was on-line retailing, well GW Bricks and Mortar stores aren't going to get bigger anytime soon, so as they bring out more and more product comes out, many, many more items will be shifted to their On-Line Service, it will not be that long before GW has over 3,000 items on their on-line retail section.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> I'm with Magpie_Oz and scscofield on this one. Any company would be insane to supply other people before their own stores, and they didn't tell anyone to fuck off, they only said they wouldn't be able to fulfil that order.
> 
> If I put an order in with tesco for home delivery and they told me I couldn't have all the items on my order, I wouldn't spit my dummy and think they'd told me to fuck off, I'd think they couldn't send me all my stuff and be thankful they let me know.
> 
> Sad but true, they haven't done anything wrong. It might not be what TCC want, but it's not wrong.


Another stockist on WargamerAU mentioned how he was told by a rep that he would be getting his full Eldar order, and started taking pre-orders, only to be told later that they would only be getting 1/7th the amount they asked for. He did have two stores though, and was told that both accounts would recieve the same amount, only to then have the second store only provided with 1/3rd of that amount. Either by incompetence or malice, GW Aus is dicking it's clients (and their customers) around.

Meanwhile, TCC may very well have a case, as talked about earlier, by abusing their market position to the detriment of other businesses. Actually have anything come of it will be the thing, but there is a case there.


----------



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

coke123 said:


> I've been routinely snubbed by the manager at my local GW on the basis that he won't be able to sell me a battleforce or whatever other derpy kit (which are pretty terrible) they are trying to flog, even when I'm trying to make a different purchase. So I'm not treated equally.


Calling thing derpy and pretty terrible I'm not surprised. Apart from that tho' that has nothing to do with you being a tournament player it is your own personal beef with a particular shop. 



coke123 said:


> Also, you didn't actually say they were treated equally, you said they were supported equally, which is a completely different kettle of fish. My local GW runs big apocalypse battles and has fairly regular campaigns, but hardly ever runs competitive play. Clearly their support goes to casual gaming, which frankly I don't have a problem with, so long as GW doesn't interfere with tournament play, which is what they are doing here (albeit indirectly).


Apoc and Campaigns aren't competitive play? My shop runs regular leagues and so forth all of which are competitive and have prizes for the victor.

Pretty sure TCC's rage quit from supporting tournaments has SFA to do with GW.



coke123 said:


> I don't ask that GW treat me any differently. I just ask that they not mess with the people who are willing to provide what I want out of the hobby, especially when it's the primary reason I spent money with them in the first place.


They aren't. They are being honest about their ability to supply they are sharing out the product that they have. TCC is cracking the shits because it can't reap the profit it wants to.



maddermax said:


> Either by incompetence or malice, GW Aus is dicking it's clients (and their customers) around.


It's neither it is due to GW being only able to supply a finite amount of stock to it's retailers.



maddermax said:


> Meanwhile, TCC may very well have a case, as talked about earlier, by abusing their market position to the detriment of other businesses. Actually have anything come of it will be the thing, but there is a case there.


TCC have no case at all.

For GW to be abusing their market position they would have to be doing something that affects the market. The market is not "Gw Miniatures" it is simply "Miniatures". No other miniature manufacturer is being harmed by the current run of events, if anything they are benefiting by the various tantrums sending people away from GW.

Even if there was a case, which there isn't lets have a guess at how it would go.

"Your honour GW has restricted supply to my client and they have suffered losses due to being unable to sell as many miniatures as they would like to."

"I see .... Mr Stoking-Kent ? "

"If it pleases your honour there was no refusal to supply, simply my client was unable to supply the amounts requested"

"And why is that?" 

"They did not have the manufacturing capacity to meet the demand your honour"

"But they flagrantly supplied more to their own shops than others your honour" 

"That is true your honour however the GW owned shops sell ONLY GW product, unlike the other retailers they have no other income stream"

(5 seconds pass)

"Case dismissed"


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## evilempire (May 28, 2013)

Both sides of this debate are being equally thick and oblivious of each others arguments.

Why is everyone carrying on about the "they are not sharing the supply around fairly" piece? It is so far from the issue that it is not funny. Of course GW are going to supply their own stores first; that is Sales 101. Strip away all the bullshit from both sides and it is really simple, and is really what TCC are challenging...

GW are either:
1. Genuinely unable to supply the demand for their product
or
2. Able to meet the demand, but are purposely not producing enough product to meet that demand to artificially create a shortage, and by only guaranteeing supply to their stores they are creating an unfair advantage for their product. 

If it is Door #2 then that is anti-competitive practice, and there would be a case. The "if" is in the proving.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

evilempire said:


> Able to meet the demand, but are purposely not producing enough product to meet that demand to artificially create a shortage, and by only guaranteeing supply to their stores they are creating an unfair advantage for their product.
> 
> If it is Door #2 then that is anti-competitive practice, and there would be a case. The "if" is in the proving.


Why would they do that? Oh we can produce and sell $20mill of stock but lets just produce $10mill so we make less....... ?

The ACCC defines anti-competitive practices as :

• competitors agreeing to charge the same or similar prices, 
or to restrict the territories within which they trade
• competitors agreeing to prevent another from acquiring 
or receiving goods and services
• misusing substantial market power to eliminate or damage 
a competitor or potential competitor
• misusing substantial market share by engaging in 
predatory pricing
• refusing to supply—this may infringe the Act under some 
circumstances such as if the purpose of the refusal is 
considered to be to damage another business
_(I'll say it again GW have not refused to supply anyone, they have simply said they cannot supply the volume requested. )_
• stipulating minimum resale prices for goods supplied to 
a retailer.

Nothing GW is doing falls into any of these.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I am starting to hope that Games Workshop goes under, crumbles under it's own weight. Lies dead for a year or two until some passionate soul gathers the funds to restart it WITHOUT making it a publically traded company that answers to the whim of dim and thankless share holders, and WITHOUT brick and mortar stores. Their current operation is an exercise in futility.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It still makes them money, so it isn't that futile.


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

Just a random thought as I don't know enough about the OZ market to give any in depth answers but I wonder how TCC is doing profit wise from it's GW tournament scene? 

I mean if they are making a loss and was looking for a way out without looking like the bad guys this has given them the opportunity

If they are making money then this is a stupid knee jerk reaction that they will soon reconsider once they realise how much they are losing


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## Insupportable knave (May 29, 2013)

Sue them .... sue them rotten, the dirty bar stewards, then sue them again, thats what I say./..



Yep.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

scscofield said:


> It still makes them money, so it isn't that futile.


For now. It's going to spiral into unprofitability soon enough.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> For now. It's going to spiral into unprofitability soon enough.


to be fair I have been hearing that for almost 20 years now and it hasn't happened yet


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Bindi Baji said:


> to be fair I have been hearing that for almost 20 years now and it hasn't happened yet


I was reading a thread on another forum and someone brought up that back in the days of BBS systems and using your phone to connect to the internet that claims like that were thrown around.

GW is like Microsoft: they ain't going away that easily and not any time soon.


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## evilempire (May 28, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why would they do that?


What part of "only guarantee supply to their own stores" doesn't make sense?



Magpie_Oz said:


> Oh we can produce and sell $20mill of stock but lets just produce $10mill so we make less....... ?


Let's say they made $20 million worth of stock for Tau, we know how they underestimated that demand. For Eldar they would hopefully learn from their mistakes, but they see an opportunity... they make the same $20 million worth of stock, which they know will not be enough. They then re-distribute more product than normal to their own stores as they know there will be a shortage, to take advantage of the people who would normally buy online or from their FLGS who now cannot because they have been withheld stock, who then have to go to GW to get the items they want.

They have still manufactured the same amount of stock, but the re-distribution means they sell more of that stock, meaning that they make more money. 

Could they have made the same or more money by making more product? Of course, but by creating the shortage they are hoping that people will, in the long run, abandon their online stores and FLGS permanently and go back to GW directly, thereby further increasing their retail share in the long run.

I am not saying that is what GW have done, but it is feasible, and it sure as hell breaks the ACCCs anti-competition rules.



Magpie_Oz said:


> The ACCC defines anti-competitive practices as :
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


So let's recap...

Market Power? Check, GW are the only manufacturer of their product, and have complete control over how they distribute it. The fact that there are other miniature manufacturers is largely irrelevant, as the accusation is only limited to the supply of GW minis. If you really want to argue the toss of the cat... GW by far have the largest share of the miniature war gaming market as a whole compared to their competors, therefore anything that they do in the market is going to be felt more than anything that Mantic or Warlord do.

Misusing? This is the crux of the matter. *IF* they have artificially created the shortage, then yes, that is misuse. If they have not, only then there is no case.

Eliminate or damage competitors? Well this would be the main long term aim. GW is trying to maximise their retail market share, as all retail companies do, and this can be done in many ways that aren't illegal, such as good customer service and providing a customer experience that makes people want to buy from their stores. An illegal way of doing it is to potentially sabotage your retail competitors by using your manufacturing power to create an artificial shortage that only your stores can meet. The obvious aim here is that GW are hoping that people will abandon their competitors stores and buy directly from them. 

Normally there would be nothing wrong with that aim... IF you do it legally, the scenario that TCC are putting forward suggests they are doing it anything but legally.


----------



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

evilempire said:


> What part of "only guarantee supply to their own stores" doesn't make sense?


Of course they can guarantee the GW shops because they do not place orders they get allocated stock so how can there be a short fall ?



evilempire said:


> Let's say they made $20 million worth of stock for Tau, we know how they underestimated that demand. For Eldar they would hopefully learn from their mistakes, but they see an opportunity... they make the same $20 million worth of stock, which they know will not be enough. They then re-distribute more product than normal to their own stores as they know there will be a shortage, to take advantage of the people who would normally buy online or from their FLGS who now cannot because they have been withheld stock, who then have to go to GW to get the items they want.
> 
> They have still manufactured the same amount of stock, but the re-distribution means they sell more of that stock, meaning that they make more money.
> 
> ...


No. They cannot "learn from their mistake" for a number of reasons.

The amount of stock to be produced for each release was decided a great many months ago. I would suggest as long ago as a year, perhaps more. There is no time to produce more for a particular release because all that will do is delay the next release.

The amount of money they can invest in each new release is a fixed amount and they simply have to forgo sales on each release because of that.

Lets say each of these new releases costs in the order of 10 million quid when you take in the development effort, the printing of books and boxes, the production of the minis and distribution of same. The length of time involved in manufacture and distribution is the length of time you have to wait for any return on that investment. 

Lets say GW will do 12 new releases for this year, that means the first release for this year was started last year. They spend 10 million quid on it. The next month another 10 mill, next month same and so on. So by the time they get to Christmas last year they have out layed 120 million quid and will only see a return on the first 10 mill in the new year. 

GW cannot afford to produce more stock even if they had accurately predicted the demand 12 months ago. 




evilempire said:


> Market Power? Check, GW are the only manufacturer of their product, and have complete control over how they distribute it.


As does every manufacturer of every product on the planet.




evilempire said:


> The fact that there are other miniature manufacturers is largely irrelevant, as the accusation is only limited to the supply of GW minis.


No that is crucial because GW can be held to account for seeking to manipulate the MARKET not it's own sales.



evilempire said:


> If you really want to argue the toss of the cat... GW by far have the largest share of the miniature war gaming market as a whole compared to their competors, therefore anything that they do in the market is going to be felt more than anything that Mantic or Warlord do.


True but GW is not manipulating the market, only it's own sales. 



evilempire said:


> Misusing? This is the crux of the matter. *IF* they have artificially created the shortage, then yes, that is misuse. If they have not, only then there is no case.


That is total bollocks. If you believe that then that would apply to any limited production run of any product and there are 1000's of products like that. First edtion print run of any novel you care to mention for example.



evilempire said:


> Eliminate or damage competitors? Well this would be the main long term aim. GW is trying to maximise their retail market share, as all retail companies do, and this can be done in many ways that aren't illegal, such as good customer service and providing a customer experience that makes people want to buy from their stores. An illegal way of doing it is to potentially sabotage your retail competitors by using your manufacturing power to create an artificial shortage that only your stores can meet. The obvious aim here is that GW are hoping that people will abandon their competitors stores and buy directly from them.
> 
> Normally there would be nothing wrong with that aim... IF you do it legally, the scenario that TCC are putting forward suggests they are doing it anything but legally.


No not at all. There is no way you can argue that GW distributing the limited stock it is able to produce between as many retailers as it can an attempt to put competitors out of business. In fact GW could counter claim that TCC is trying to do that and they can prove it in a heartbeat by simple going to their website.

"We will continue to sell their products and take every single dollar we can out of their direct sales channels."

If that isn't a clear statement of intent...........


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

This is all what if bullshit.

If it goes to court all GW has to do is say they had limited resources for the release. End of story, end of issue, case dismissed.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> This is all what if bullshit.
> 
> If it goes to court all GW has to do is say they had limited resources for the release. End of story, end of issue, case dismissed.


I agree, in fact I agree so much that I agreed several posts earlier.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> This is all what if bullshit.
> 
> If it goes to court all GW has to do is say they had limited resources for the release. End of story, end of issue, case dismissed.


Hell trying to play catch up on the Tau release and then all the back logged orders probably limited stock _even further_ than it might have been otherwise.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Since 6th started it has been back orders, limited supplies and delays for everything. This whole thing isn't something new to the Elder or even the Tau release. Don't blame them for being pissy but they no ground to stand on legally. Their tourny support or lack of support means jack shit to releases.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Since 6th started it has been back orders, limited supplies and delays for everything.


Why do you think they are releasing at such a rate?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Personally I think they are making small releases and churning them out as fast as they can. If they update all of 40k to 6th in the next year it will give them a baseline of what sells for the next few years. This has nothing to do with playing monopoly games with their products. Doing that would be like chopping their hand off then using it to masterbate.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Personally I think they are making small releases and churning them out as fast as they can. If they update all of 40k to 6th in the next year it will give them a baseline of what sells for the next few years. This has nothing to do with playing monopoly games with their products. Doing that would be like chopping their hand off then using it to masterbate.


That certainly seems to be the way it is going. It would be great to see all armies on the same edition !


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## Me-dea (Mar 10, 2010)

A They will not sell us as much minis as we want to resell -> B We will stop supporting all tournaments, events, etc.

I really dont see the logic in that. I mean how exactly A leads to B? How selling models have anything to do with you doying tournaments? I mean really, can somebody explain this to me? Because even after reading all here, I just dont see it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Me-dea said:


> A They will not sell us as much minis as we want to resell -> B We will stop supporting all tournaments, events, etc.
> 
> I really dont see the logic in that. I mean how exactly A leads to B? How selling models have anything to do with you doying tournaments? I mean really, can somebody explain this to me? Because even after reading all here, I just dont see it.


A LOT of people make a LOT of money out of engendering GW hatred.

TCC make themselves heroes by pulling support and blaming GW for it.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

They are getting the tourny folk riled up on hopes it might rattle GW. Since GW has stopped bothering with that stuff I doubt it would work.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Me-dea said:


> A They will not sell us as much minis as we want to resell -> B We will stop supporting all tournaments, events, etc.
> 
> I really dont see the logic in that. I mean how exactly A leads to B? How selling models have anything to do with you doying tournaments? I mean really, can somebody explain this to me? Because even after reading all here, I just dont see it.


GW has been dicking them around, telling them they'll have stock when they won't, which is hard for a retailer, having to tell those who already pre-ordered through you, and your regular customers that actually, they're not going to get their thing at release, which degrades confidence in the retailer - and retailers rely heavily on their reputations for having stock and for-filling orders taken, so it does hurt them. Retailers also depend upon the "new shiney" stuff to sell in order to make a decent margin - when something like this comes out, people want to get things early on during the splash, and if (If, mind you) GW is trying to cut smaller stores out of that new release income, of course they're going to be upset. 

Now, what does this have to do with Tournament Support? Well, why support a company that doesn't support you? Put that same tournament support into other systems, and grow the markets of the games made by companies you'd rather be dealing with. It's not exactly hard to work out why one leads to the other.



Magpie_Oz said:


> A LOT of people make a LOT of money out of engendering GW hatred.
> 
> TCC make themselves heroes by pulling support and blaming GW for it.


You know, a lot of people on the internet bitch far too much about Games Workshop, it's very true. There's a streak of jaded players who can't seem to just let it go. However, the one thing I can say is that, after hearing quite a few stories from retailers on various forums when this subject came up, I don't blame retailers for disliking working with GW. For gamers, it's just a hobby, so if something is disliked, get over it or get out of it, and go on enjoying life. For retailers, it's their livelihoods, and they tend to take business matters a little more seriously. 

You're quite quick to insinuate that they're a "faceless" company don't support the hobby (despite being told differently), that they're just out to make a quick buck by trading in "GW Hatred" (seriously, you seem to have a lot of contempt for them for speaking up, how much money does "GW hatred" make anyway?), but really, they're just guys trying to make a living, who treat their customers well, treat the community well, and who are generally well regarded.


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## Me-dea (Mar 10, 2010)

maddermax said:


> GW has been dicking them around, telling them they'll have stock when they won't, which is hard for a retailer, having to tell those who already pre-ordered through you, and your regular customers that actually, they're not going to get their thing at release, which degrades confidence in the retailer - and retailers rely heavily on their reputations for having stock and for-filling orders taken, so it does hurt them. Retailers also depend upon the "new shiney" stuff to sell in order to make a decent margin - when something like this comes out, people want to get things early on during the splash, and if (If, mind you) GW is trying to cut smaller stores out of that new release income, of course they're going to be upset.


Sure this is true, and you can argue how 33% of produced minis is fair or not, but ...



maddermax said:


> Now, what does this have to do with Tournament Support? Well, why support a company that doesn't support you? Put that same tournament support into other systems, and grow the markets of the games made by companies you'd rather be dealing with. It's not exactly hard to work out why one leads to the other.


You support tournaments to make money on tournaments (entry fee, sales at tournaments be it drinks, food, models, etc.). If the tournaments don't make you enough money, you just stop making them. And I think GW stopped supporting them because of this. You are talking about supporting company, well you may provide support for them, but you are not doing tournament to support GW, you are doing them to make money.

If the tournaments would be profitable for them, I am really sure, they wouldn't cancelled them because of one partially finished / delayed order or lack of support from GW. Same as *they are not stopping selling GW minis, because its profitable for them*. And yes, I know support from GW is non-existent and they often piss on their customers.

I just really believe they are trying to blame GW for theirs decision to stop supporting non-profitable tournaments (thing, that GW realized long time ago).


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

You should get Jesse Ventura on it. GW are probably part of the Illuminati/NWO/Reptilian Elite... Supplying their own shops with their own product must be a conspiracy...


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> You should get Jesse Ventura on it. GW are probably part of the Illuminati/NWO/Reptilian Elite... Supplying their own shops with their own product must be a conspiracy...


No, no, no. That's just what GW _want_ you to think. Don't you see....?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

maddermax said:


> You're quite quick to insinuate that they're a "faceless" company don't support the hobby (despite being told differently),


They may have a face to a few but not as much as GW. Their "support" for a small sector of the GW community gets whisked away on a whim when GW says "we can't guarantee we can fill your order." 
That's not really all that supportive.



maddermax said:


> how much money does "GW hatred" make anyway?


Ask the author of Spots the Space Marine, maybe Mantic Games as well.
They also made a public statement of ill intent to GW which is a clear indication that they want people to buy from them as a means of retaliation against GW.


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## evilempire (May 28, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> evilempire said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that there are other miniature manufacturers is largely irrelevant
> ...


But if you agree that by GW having the largest market share their actions would be felt more through the market than a Mantic or PP, I would propose that them manipulating their own sales would cascade through the entire market.






Magpie_Oz said:


> Ask the author of Spots the Space Marine


Because that was such a balanced an not at all OTT reaction from GW towards a kickstarter and self-published book.


For the record, here is their trademark from the US Patent and Trademark Office...

Goods and Services IC 028. US 022. G & S: board games, parlor games, war games, hobby games, toy models and miniatures of buildings, scenery, figures, automobiles, vehicles, planes, trains and card games and paint, sold therewith. FIRST USE: 19870900. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19871000
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74186534
Filing Date July 19, 1991
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition November 23, 1993
Registration Number 1922180
Registration Date September 26, 1995
Owner (REGISTRANT) GAMES WORKSHOP LIMITED CORPORATION UNITED 
KINGDOM Willow Road, Lenton Eastwood Nottingham NG7 2W5 UNITED KINGDOM
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20051125.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20051125


I don't see any mention of it covering fiction, only games and other hobby related interests. "Common law trademark" I can hear you yell. Ah, no. This would only work if there weren't other authors pre-dating them who had used the term — they're the ones, then, that would have the right to the common law trademark.

You talk about TCCs over the top reaction... well kudos to GW for their well though out, balanced and completely non-corporate bullying reaction to an INDEPENDENT author and publisher whose work no-one in their right mind could ever have gotten confused with the 40K universe. Well done.






Magpie_Oz said:


> evilempire said:
> 
> 
> > Eliminate or damage competitors? Well this would be the main long term aim. GW is trying to maximise their retail market share, as all retail companies do, and this can be done in many ways that aren't illegal, such as good customer service and providing a customer experience that makes people want to buy from their stores. An illegal way of doing it is to potentially sabotage your retail competitors by using your manufacturing power to create an artificial shortage that only your stores can meet. The obvious aim here is that GW are hoping that people will abandon their competitors stores and buy directly from them.
> ...


 
I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that *IF* they have deliberately not produced enough stock and have thereby created an artificial shortage that only they can fill, then that is potentially anti-competitive. 

Is this what they have done? I don't know. I understand that you do not believe this is what they have done this on purpose. What I don't understand is how someone could not think that its the scenario suggested by TCC is not the _slightest_ bit feasible. I am not going to go around blathering like a sheep-like automaton and dismiss the point because I think they can do no wrong. They can. They have, and they will continue to do so in the future. Whether or not this is one of those times is something worth investigating.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

evilempire said:


> But if you agree that by GW having the largest market share their actions would be felt more through the market than a Mantic or PP, I would propose that them manipulating their own sales would cascade through the entire market.


How? What reaction will the market have to GW manipulating their sales ? 




evilempire said:


> Because that was such a balanced an not at all OTT reaction from GW towards a kickstarter and self-published book.


What ever the rights and wrongs of what ever trademarks are or aren't registered the entire affair was a master stroke of social media usage by the author. 



evilempire said:


> I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that *IF* they have deliberately not produced enough stock and have thereby created an artificial shortage that only they can fill, then that is potentially anti-competitive.


Explain, in detail, how this action is anti competitive. 



evilempire said:


> Is this what they have done? I don't know. I understand that you do not believe this is what they have done this on purpose. What I don't understand is how someone could not think that its the scenario suggested by TCC is not the _slightest_ bit feasible.


What scenario has been suggested by TCC. From TCC's own website GW have have made it quite clear that they are selling 66% of the stock themselves and dividing up the rest.

I have given a detailed reasoning as to why GW simply can't produce enough stock, I have not seen any similarity detailed proposal to suggest any other intent of their actions.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Read the UK trademark.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

djinn24 said:


> Read the UK trademark.


I think that was the nub of the problem in that the book was being made available in the EU/UK market where the trademark was reserved. 

Not to worry tho' Lynch Mob Rule sorted it all out.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think that was the nub of the problem in that the book was being made available in the EU/UK market where the trademark was reserved.
> 
> Not to worry tho' Lynch Mob Rule sorted it all out.


So GW used Orks to solve the problem? 

Yeah, yeah, I know what you actually mean, but the thought of Orks beating people up for being asshats on the internet amused me.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I see that the rant on The Combat Company Website is gone however they still are selling Eldar. Did they get their order or are they simply not warning ppl about their restricted supply ? 

They probably don't need to warn anyone as the website gives and "out of stock" anyway, so you do wonder why the bothered with the big "read this before ordering" in the first place.

Anyone know of any update or change mentioned anywhere ?


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