# what if the Emp had sent Russ after the NL and not the TS?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

to me, this is a great "What If?" 
I think Curze deserved sanctioning more than Magnus did 

which legion would survive? which primarch would survive a duel


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Batman would totally win.


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

Might just be me, but I think Russ would pulverize Curze. Magnus, while going against what the Emporer decreed and should have had retribution/punishment for that, I dont believe was actually "bad". The argument could be made that because of what Magnus was doing, he'd have eventually turned to Chaos. But then it could also be said that the Grey Knights deal with what Magnus did and they havnt turned. Either way it could be argued. Honestly, I've never liked the Night Lords. Ever. Russ should have been sent against the NL's and the TS's should have been punished to a lesser degree.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

If Russ had not gone after Magnus, then Magnus might have opened the Webway and totally screwed the Emperor's plans. Further, since Magnus was heading down the slippery slope of damnation, he could have fallen all the way and joined Horus. There lies the true threat. Horus + Magnus = win for chaos in the battle of terra.

What happened to the the Nightlords? They didn't fight in the battle for Terra and aren't mentioned much in the Horus Heresy books, except that they fought on Istvan.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

depending on when it happened i feel like it would turn out similarly.

magnus let his planet be destroyed/curze destroyed his own planet- i don't think it would be a stretch to think that cruze disliked the planed and would let the wolves destroy it for him.

Magnus new that he had done wrong/Curze felt he was made to do wrong for the emp- again i can see similarities in the two that would lead me to believe that similar events could, in certain circumstances, happen.


I do think that Curze and Russ would be a decent fight. I would love it if that happened and one of them died just to see news reports of hundreds of fanboys committing mass suicide.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Night Lords would not be easy pickings.

The Thousand Sons are not known for skill in combat, they rely too much on the warp.

The Night Lords would slaughter the Wolves I think especially if they fought on Nostromo before Curze destroyed it.

in b4 fanboi.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Bad matchup. You don't send in an assault army to take down an insurgency, which is what that would devolve into.

If the Night Lords were stupid enough to get into a bitch-slapping contest, I would give it to the puppies, but I doubt they would. Russ would probably beat Curze in a fight, but I wouldn't call it for either party because there are to many factors to contend with to say for sure on anything.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I imagine that it would be much the same as in _Savage Weapons_ with the Dark Angels and the Night lords. 

The Night Lords retreating to the edge of space and hiding amongst the gulf between the stars while the Space Wolves try and find them to bring them to a conclusive battle. 

The Thousand Sons would still be a loyalist legion, and know about Horus' Treachery. Perhaps they could use that information either by making for Terra, the Istvaan system of taking some other course of action.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

jaysen said:


> If Russ had not gone after Magnus, then Magnus might have opened the Webway and totally screwed the Emperor's plans.


He did this already, it was why Russ was sent to Prospero in the first place, because the power of Magnus' warning to the Emperor breached the webway, and proved that he had ignored the dictates laid down at the council of Nikea.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I understand that there are a lot of NL fanboys on the forum (thanks a lot ADB), that being said, it has been mentioned in at least two books that the SW were mainly created as the butchers in case something went 'wrong' with another chapter, they have proven it several times. In battle of the fang, Magnus actually confirms the potential of the SW, so from this perspective I would assume (I am not a SW fanboy) that in the pre heressy age the SW were capable of taking on any legion (assuming the numbers are roughly the same), so certainly the NL them being not really known for their combat skills, more their terror tactics.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

jaysen said:


> If Russ had not gone after Magnus, then Magnus might have opened the Webway and totally screwed the Emperor's plans. Further, since Magnus was heading down the slippery slope of damnation, he could have fallen all the way and joined Horus. There lies the true threat. Horus + Magnus = win for chaos in the battle of terra.
> 
> What happened to the the Nightlords? They didn't fight in the battle for Terra and aren't mentioned much in the Horus Heresy books, except that they fought on Istvan.


In the NL series it mentions them fighting on terra.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Leman Russ and his Wolves definitely win this one.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

piemelke said:


> I understand that there are a lot of NL fanboys on the forum (thanks a lot ADB), that being said, it has been mentioned in at least two books that the SW were mainly created as the butchers in case something went 'wrong' with another chapter, they have proven it several times. In battle of the fang, Magnus actually confirms the potential of the SW, so from this perspective I would assume (I am not a SW fanboy) that in the pre heressy age the SW were capable of taking on any legion (assuming the numbers are roughly the same), so certainly the NL them being not really known for their combat skills, more their terror tactics.


I believe that this was said by the Space Wolves themselves, but not corroborated by anyone impartial. While it is hinted that the Space Wolves had been involved in putting down errant Legions in the past (in First Heretic or Thousand Sons, I can't remember which), that in itself doesn't mean that the Space Wolves were created for anything of the sort.

Considering that Russ was unable to best The Lion, and that Curze fought the Lion to draw (winning when the fight was interrupted), there is nothing apart from the rantings of feverish space Wolf fanboys to suggest that Russ would "pulverise" Curze.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Question to everyone aka Space Wolf fanboys.

What exactly have we seen as the audience in regards to the Wolves being Astartes killers?

Other than a few lines saying just that and coming out of the mouths of Space Wolves?

What have we read that's so different in their approach to combat that has no similarities with the other Astartes legions?

They have heightened senses due to them having wolf DNA but it's not a huge advantage over a fellow Space Marine.

I haven't read Prospero Burns in quite a while but I recall nothing other than Abnett saying the Wolves were meant to kill their fellow brothers if need be.

So really, other than their Viking mentality that mostly consists of HOW DARE HE CALL US COWARDS, HE MUST PAY111!!, what do they have going for them in the Space Marine hunters department?

edit- lol sup harlokin.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So really, other than their Viking mentality that mostly consists of HOW DARE HE CALL US COWARDS, HE MUST PAY111!!, what do they have going for them in the Space Marine hunters department?


I asked this same question a while ago and the overwhelming response was that they are unquestioningly obedient.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They are.

But what does that have to do with them being created with the purpose or being bestowed with the uncanny ability of wiping out fellow Astartes.

Sure they'll obey the Emperor if he told them to clean his collection of ceramite boots without fail but I mean physically, what do they have that's so perfect for killing other Space Marines other than because Abnett said so.

What have we seen that indicates this?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

World Eaters make just as good (if not better) butchers than the puppies

SW needed Silent Sister and Custodian support when taking on the TS, who were sabotaged by their own primarch 

SW are great fighters and all but they're not these ultimate anti-Astartes trump cards


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I would of sent Raven Guard to sort out the Night Lords tbh, I think the Space Wolves would have a hard time nailing down the Night Lords, just the same as the Dark Angels supposedly had during _Savage Weapons_. Raven Guard would be a lot quicker, a lot more adept as recognising the strategy and due to Corax's dour nature less prone to get pissed off at the terror tactics.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

I think any of the Legions would struggle to defeat the Night Lords allowed to fight on their own terms; not trying to hold territory, conducting hit-and-run attacks etc.

The Raven Guard might have been an interesting choice, and I wonder whether things would have turned out any different if the highly mobile White Scars had been sent against the Night Lords, with the more stoic/defensive Dark Angels committed to protect Terra.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I would of sent Raven Guard to sort out the Night Lords tbh, I think the Space Wolves would have a hard time nailing down the Night Lords, just the same as the Dark Angels supposedly had during _Savage Weapons_. Raven Guard would be a lot quicker, a lot more adept as recognising the strategy and due to Corax's dour nature less prone to get pissed off at the terror tactics.



Errk, you got in before me


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

harlokin said:


> Errk, you got in before me


Great minds think alike


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Actually (SPOILERS) in battle for the fang;
the sw gene material can for some reason not be mass produced cloned or whatever, the wolve brothers proved this, the wolf priest had been tempering in secrecy with the gene seed to be able to forge new chapters the idea being creating 20 SW affiliated chapters located around the eye of terror, Magnus got so scared by the idea that he sacked the fang and destroyed the gene lab. Again I am not a sw fanboy (rahter BA), but for me this means indeed the sw are nasty. In two books it has been mentioned that they have been designed as the executioners, I do not see any reason to doubt that. 
So again in my opinion when both at equal strength in the pre heresy age the sw would destroy the nl, I am not saying it would be easy or a walkover.
Regarding the russ curze the lion discussion, in the short story is was suggested that during the sword fight the Lion was holding back, now again I am not a sw fan boy, that is something Russ would NOT do, so also here I am sorry to say Russ would win, now I understand that is hard to accept for all you NL-ADB-worshipping-fans and to be honest I do not like it either but it does seem logical, for me the pre heresy NL were a very moderate legion good at scarring the crap out of people, the SW by far more dangerous, please remember that the beat the TS even though a lot of them were powerfull psykers using the warp that is for example something the pre heresy NL had a lot less.
well I guess there will be comments and fanboys will come up with arguments as, yeah but only the sw said they are the executioners, basically assuming it is more likely that two BL authors conspired to make the SW the most arrogant chapter out there or just that the meant what they wrote down. For me the BA are by far the most dangerous chapter hey if the SW would have fought the pre heresy BA that would have a koel fight, hell yeah


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

harlokin said:


> with the more stoic/defensive Dark Angels committed to protect Terra.


I think that the Dark Angels were busy killing each other at the time Terra was attacked. I think.

Midnight


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I think that the Dark Angels were busy killing each other at the time Terra was attacked. I think.
> 
> Midnight



Dont think so, from what I recall of the time line The Lion returned to Caliban shortly after the conclusion of the Horus Heresy.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Dark Angels where sitting on the fence, fighting Night Lords and randomly giving stuff away to Pertruabo during the heresy  It was only after the siege of terra did they return home.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Dark Angels where sitting on the fence, fighting Night Lords and randomly giving stuff away to Pertruabo during the heresy  It was only after the siege of terra did they return home.


He was just collecting votes for the next Warmaster Election.....poor Lion's people skillz aint great :grin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hardly. He got caught in a prolonged campaign against the Night Lords with the warp in too much (forgive me) chaos for them to reach Terra. The Lion showed clearly in Savage Weapons he wasn't fence sitting or waiting around, he wanted to be back at Terra, but he couldn't.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hardly. He got caught in a prolonged campaign against the Night Lords with the warp in too much (forgive me) chaos for them to reach Terra. The Lion showed clearly in Savage Weapons he wasn't fence sitting or waiting around, he wanted to be back at Terra, but he couldn't.


Was only joking :biggrin:

Do you think that any of the other Legions mentioned (Space Wolves, Raven Guard or White Scars) might have fared better (been able to force a decisive confrontation) against the Night Lords in this campaign?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

All subjective really. The Raven Guard were experts at guerilla warfare, stealth and lightning fast warfare, and the White Scars were also experts at fast attack and hit and run. However that doesn't nesacarily mean they would be the best choice to combat the Night Lords using these tactics, guerilla warfare isn't really the answer to guerilla warfare, it would just go on endlessly.

As for the Dark Angels, you forget the Lion was said to be the best strategist of the Primarchs, making him(despite how it went) probably one of the best choices.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> All subjective really. The Raven Guard were experts at guerilla warfare, stealth and lightning fast warfare, and the White Scars were also experts at fast attack and hit and run. However that doesn't nesacarily mean they would be the best choice to combat the Night Lords using these tactics, guerilla warfare isn't really the answer to guerilla warfare, it would just go on endlessly.
> 
> As for the Dark Angels, you forget the Lion was said to be the best strategist of the Primarchs, making him(despite how it went) probably one of the best choices.


I see it a bit differently.

Night lords were a stealthy chapter that had a proclivity to only fight weaker enemies. They used terror tactics to cause confusion and give them an edge and allow for a quick and gruesome victory. They are not adept at guerrilla warfare and and if a prolonged battle with a foe who is as strong as them and not afraid of them they loose everything that usually gives them an advantage.

To this effect i don't think the Night Lords are great for fighting other astartes no matter the legion.

The Raven Guard would almost definetly have the advantage. Since terror tactics wouldn't effect the average astartes, the advanced scouting and equal or (most likely) greater stealth of the RG would hinder the only remaining advantage the NL possess. 

The Scars would massacre the NL if they fought in the open but i think they would be probably the most inefficient at fighting on NL terms. Hard to dive those bikes in dense cities without allowing for some pretty devastating ambushes.

The Dark Angels are also another chapter that I personally wouldn't put up against the Night Lords, even though i feel like they would still win. Dark Angels blabber on about knightly honor (despite their Primarch being king of the sucker punch) constantly and the NL are fine fighting dirty. They are all murders and criminals after all.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Nightlords are not about terror tactics, they are about psychological warfare, they use guerrilla warfare, insurgency, terror tactics, blitzkrieg, etc, disruption tactics, terrorism.

Guerrilla warfare against a legion that uses Guerrilla warfare itself? You just took away the Ravenguards greatest advantage versus other legions. It wouldn't even matter if the Ravenguard were better at Guerrilla warfare then the Nightlords, which is debatable which is the better of the two, because the difference would be so small it would negate any advantage of using Guerrilla warfare in the first place.

Considering after a decade long war between the two legions, it is stated quite clearly both legions were evenly matched and controlled world for world, basically 50/50 of the system.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> As for the Dark Angels, you forget the Lion was said to be the best strategist of the Primarchs, making him(despite how it went) probably one of the best choices.


That title has been attributed to so many Primarchs it's not even funny.



Klaivex said:


> I see it a bit differently.
> 
> Night lords were a stealthy chapter that had a proclivity to only fight weaker enemies. They used terror tactics to cause confusion and give them an edge and allow for a quick and gruesome victory. They are not adept at guerrilla warfare and and if a prolonged battle with a foe who is as strong as them and not afraid of them they loose everything that usually gives them an advantage.


The Night Lords to me employ shock-troop tactics. They do not prefer prolonged fights but rather to hit their targets quickly and brutally followed by a swift withdrawal but not before they loot a few bodies and mutilate a few more. 

The Raven Guard are suited for guerrilla warfare while the White Scars are masters of hit and run tactics.



Klaivex said:


> To this effect i don't think the Night Lords are great for fighting other astartes no matter the legion. The Raven Guard would almost definetly have the advantage. Since terror tactics wouldn't effect the average astartes, the advanced scouting and equal or (most likely) greater stealth of the RG would hinder the only remaining advantage the NL possess.


You and many others assume that the only bag of tricks the NL have is their ability to go 'BOO'.

I think ADB needs to help out the redundant traits the legions possess and make the NL stand out and be more clearly defined as a legion in comparison to the rest tactics wise.



Klaivex said:


> The Scars would massacre the NL if they fought in the open but i think they would be probably the most inefficient at fighting on NL terms. Hard to dive those bikes in dense cities without allowing for some pretty devastating ambushes.


Why would they? Do you think motorbikes on an open field versus any Astartes legion would be effective?



Klaivex said:


> The Dark Angels are also another chapter that I personally wouldn't put up against the Night Lords, even though i feel like they would still win. Dark Angels blabber on about knightly honor (despite their Primarch being king of the sucker punch) constantly and the NL are fine fighting dirty. They are all murders and criminals after all.


You assume any legion would not resort to getting their hands dirty to accomplish their goals. 

Perhaps post Heresy and its abundance of hardcore Codex followers would limit themselves but the founding legions? I don't think so.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Night Lords to me employ shock-troop tactics. They do not prefer prolonged fights but rather to hit their targets quickly and brutally followed by a swift withdrawal but not before they loot a few bodies and mutilate a few more.
> 
> The Raven Guard are suited for guerrilla warfare while the White Scars are masters of hit and run tactics.


I agree? Its basically what i said.



> You and many others assume that the only bag of tricks the NL have is their ability to go 'BOO'.


Not at all. they are astartes so they are plenty powerful. they even contain one of the best swordsmen but what really sets them apart from the other legions was going "BOO." It was by far their specialty in the realm of specialized legions.



> Why would they? Do you think motorbikes on an open field versus any Astartes legion would be effective?


I think the mobility and tactics of the white scars would easily defeat the night lords in the open. Same way it would kick the raven guards ass and the imperial fists and iron warriors. all legions have their strong suits and they all have (i wouldn't call them weakness) but ways to fight that do not suite their combat doctrine. I feel like few legions could beat the white scars on the open plains for the same reason no one could beat Genghis khan... that was where he shined.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Lux said:


> Nightlords are not about terror tactics, they are about psychological warfare, they use guerrilla warfare, insurgency, terror tactics, blitzkrieg, etc, disruption tactics, terrorism.


The Night Lords we not known for guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla warfare is only really viable for a weaker force attacking a more powerful force. They are stated to avoid fighting opponents that can withstand them.

Psychological warfare
insurgency (tho i don't recall them ever doing this)
disruption tactics 
and 
terrorism
are all all basically aspects of terror tactics (though there is really no set definition of terror tactics)

I would agree that they like blitzkrieg attacks that they can win swiftly because that is part of their combat doctrine.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I agree? Its basically what i said.


You also said that they are useless if they find themselves in wars of attrition/long battles which isn't true. They just prefer certain styles of warfare given their gang mentality.



Klaivex said:


> Not at all. they are astartes so they are plenty powerful. they even contain one of the best swordsmen but what really sets them apart from the other legions was going "BOO." It was by far their specialty in the realm of specialized legions.


I don't think you're giving them enough credit. They taught humanity to fear them and basically kept far off worlds under check with the threat of giving them a visit if they decided to revolt against the Emperor.

But I would say their specialty is their gangster drive-by/drop-pod in the middle of the enemy brutal/lightening fast shock-troop style of warfare.



Klaivex said:


> I think the mobility and tactics of the white scars would easily defeat the night lords in the open. Same way it would kick the raven guards ass and the imperial fists and iron warriors.


What other tactics do the WS possess? Out in the open, their hit and run tactics would fall apart against the Night Lords who themselves are no strangers to such styles of war.

If by mobility you mean their bikes, you forget the Night Lords are a very mobile Legion, given their preference of jump-packs and there is only so much you can do on a bike versus a stationary target with a huge rocket-launcher waiting to be fired. 



Klaivex said:


> I feel like few legions could beat the white scars on the open plains for the same reason no one could beat Genghis khan... that was where he shined.


I'm curious to see what legions you think could take on the White Scars.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> Guerrilla warfare against a legion that uses Guerrilla warfare itself? You just took away the Ravenguards greatest advantage versus other legions. It wouldn't even matter if the Ravenguard were better at Guerrilla warfare then the Nightlords, which is debatable which is the better of the two, because the difference would be so small it would negate any advantage of using Guerrilla warfare in the first


Did you miss the part where I said guerilla against guerilla is bad??



Malus Darkblade said:


> That title has been attributed to so many Primarchs it's not even funny.


No, it's most commonly and consistently used to describe the Lion, both in the IA and by the the other primarchs themselves in the books, no other primarch can make such a claim.




Malus Darkblade said:


> You and many others assume that the only bag of tricks the NL have is their ability to go 'BOO'.
> 
> I think ADB needs to help out the redundant traits the legions possess and make the NL stand out and be more clearly defined as a legion in comparison to the rest tactics wise.


Sorry but that IS the Night Lords specialisation, always has been, they have always been described and attributed to terror tactics. They already stand out and are clearly defined, why do you and other NL fanboys so desperately want them to be more, I dont see World Eater fans begging for then to be more than mindless close combat monsters, or Thousand Son fans demanding more than magic. Only the Night Lord fans seem to be unhappy that their favourite legion are terror troops and really don't have anything beyond that. The codecs say it, index astartes says it, yet somehow they have to be more. Instead they are suddenly the masters of stealth and guerilla warfare, despite that being the Raven Guard, masters of hit and run and lightning warfare despite that being the White Scars, shall we just go ahead and make them excellent smiths and spies whilst we're at it to snub the Salamanders and Alpha Legion aswell.

People probably wouldn't think so but I love the Night Lords and Curze, for what they are, I love the idea of pyscho terror tactics and a primarch based of Kurtz. What I hate are the uber fans who seem so utterly unsatisfied with what the legion is and/or can't accept that evryone else doesnt love and respect them as much as they do.

/rant


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I dont see World Eater fans begging for then to be more than mindless close combat monsters


I don't think any exist. 



Angel of Blood said:


> or Thousand Son fans demanding more than magic. Only the Night Lord fans seem to be unhappy that their favourite legion are terror troops and really don't have anything beyond that.


It's because the Thousand Sons are a flavorless, bland Legion which the Rubric of Ahriman represents all too well ironically. They have nothing going for them in the interesting department. If GW decided to make all of them have white hair reaching their waists, wizard hats on their heads and made them all wield sticks , their fans probably would not care. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Sorry but that IS the Night Lords specialisation, always has been, they have always been described and attributed to terror tactics. They already stand out and are clearly defined, why do you and other NL fanboys so desperately want them to be more
> 
> The codecs say it, index astartes says it, yet somehow they have to be more. Instead they are suddenly the masters of stealth and guerilla warfare, despite that being the Raven Guard, masters of hit and run and lightning warfare despite that being the White Scars, shall we just go ahead and make them excellent smiths and spies whilst we're at it to snub the Salamanders and Alpha Legion whilst we're at it.





Angel of Blood said:


> People probably wouldn't think so but I love the Night Lords and Curze, for what they are, I love the idea of pyscho terror tactics and a primarch based of Kurtz. What I hate are the uber fans who seem so utterly unsatisfied with what the legion is and/or can't accept that evryone else doesnt love and respect them as much as they do.


Forget the codex, it was made a thousand years ago before the Space Wolves got reinvented and before the Night Lords got some much needed PR.

It was made mostly for the monopoly version of WH40k, not the actual lore/novels.

The problem I have with a lot of the legions is that they share a lot of common traits/mentalities and perhaps this is due to a lack of creativity or old lore that needs to be revisited Abnett style.

But the Night Lords are an exception to this, they stand alone because apparently they only bring one thing to the table which only works on humans which you don't even need to scare to utterly decimate. And when you simply label them as only being boogeymen, it's such a great injustice because that makes them appear incapable of taking down their brother Legions if need be hence why their fans are up in arms. 

ADB did an amazing job giving us a look into their mentalities but he hasn't yet gone into detail as to what makes them so effective overall and against their loyalist brethren.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

> ADB did an amazing job giving us a look into their mentalities but he hasn't yet gone into detail as to what makes them so effective overall and against their loyalist brethren.


Actually he has repeatedly said that the Night Lords struggle against other Astartes. That they lose even fights and try to only commit to combat with the balance heavily in their favour. We've seen this in savage weapons we've seen it in the Soul Hunter series. Why do they need to be awesome against other astartes too? Can't they have any flaws?

It's not surprising that they don't have an edge against other astartes. They specialise in terror and shock tactics, strategies based on a psychological element and less effective on space marines. They were recruited from a background without any kind of 'martial tradition', they're ganger's, rapists and thugs. Great at slitting someone's throat but no so good at duelling another astartes. I'm not saying they can't hold their own or are ineffective rather they don't have any inherent edge over other astartes, rather the opposite with their style of war being less effective against space marine opponents.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You also said that they are useless if they find themselves in wars of attrition/long battles which isn't true. They just prefer certain styles of warfare given their gang mentality.


Did i say useless? I said they loose their advantages but that doesn't make them helpless. it just doesn't make them as strong as when everything is in their favor.



> I don't think you're giving them enough credit. They taught humanity to fear them and basically kept far off worlds under check with the threat of giving them a visit if they decided to revolt against the Emperor.


I think that's almost exactly what i think. Taught humanity to fear is a bit of a stretch... humanity is much older than the NL... but again i think using fear as a weapon is what they were better at than any other legion.




> What other tactics do the WS possess? Out in the open, their hit and run tactics would fall apart against the Night Lords who themselves are no strangers to such styles of war.
> 
> If by mobility you mean their bikes, you forget the Night Lords are a very mobile Legion, given their preference of jump-packs and there is only so much you can do on a bike versus a stationary target with a huge rocket-launcher waiting to be fired.


NL, to me, use hit and run in conjunction with their stealth more than there speed. The WS use it in conjunction with their speed more than their stealth. They can both use the other technique as well but in general this is what they are mostly known for. 

I realise that NL are quite mobile but they normally use their ability to strike fast, and normally they only attack something that they will definetly beat on the first attack. Then they disappear into the shadows, they don't try to distance themselves. They hide.

WS use theirs to strike and then distance themselves from the enemy and then strike again. WS are mechanised cavalry and cavalry is most effective on the charge, not in prolonged combat. 

I actually think it should be hit and hide for the NL. WS are more just keep charging from different directions backing off only to ready themselves for another charge.


> I'm curious to see what legions you think could take on the White Scars.


I think any legion could best any other legion in the right circumstances. Like i said, if the NL got the WS in a ruined city with a lot of rubble and dead ends where they either couldn't get a good charge in or couldn't get away fast then the NL would ruin them.

I don't think that any one legion is stronger than any other. They all have their strengths and weakness.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Rems said:


> Actually he has repeatedly said that the Night Lords struggle against other Astartes. That they lose even fights and try to only commit to combat with the balance heavily in their favour. We've seen this in savage weapons we've seen it in the Soul Hunter series. Why do they need to be awesome against other astartes too? Can't they have any flaws?


I was thinking that scene in Savage Weapons was ADB's take on their fighting style. 

But it simply is not practical in an all out war against another legion. When can groups of Space Marines desert a formidable formation to go group up against a lesser number of Space Marines hiding behind some rock or something?

I'm all for them having flaws but right now they don't even have any strengths.



Rems said:


> It's not surprising that they don't have an edge against other astartes. They specialise in terror and shock tactics, strategies based on a psychological element and less effective on space marines. They were recruited from a background without any kind of 'martial tradition', they're ganger's, rapists and thugs. Great at slitting someone's throat but no so good at duelling another astartes.
> 
> I'm not saying they can't hold their own or are ineffective rather they don't have any inherent edge over other astartes, rather the opposite with their style of war being less effective against space marine opponents.


Well you just did call them useless against other Astartes and again, this notion that their only style of war involves scare tactics just doesn't sit well with me.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I think that's almost exactly what i think. Taught humanity to fear is a bit of a stretch... humanity is much older than the NL... but again i think using fear as a weapon is what they were better at than any other legion.


I meant people in general who knew of the NL's reputation, not the entirety of mankind.

Using fear as a weapon works but not against other Astartes which makes people think the NL would suck against pretty much any legion/chapter because those same people think that's all they have. 



Klaivex said:


> NL, to me, use hit and run in conjunction with their stealth more than there speed. The WS use it in conjunction with their speed more than their stealth. They can both use the other technique as well but in general this is what they are mostly known for.


Right now the NL have nothing spectacular about the way they function hence my wish for ADB to expand on their tactics.



Klaivex said:


> I realise that NL are quite mobile but they normally use their ability to strike fast, and normally they only attack something that they will definetly beat on the first attack. Then they disapear into the shadows, they don't try to distance themselves. They hide.


They hide. I mean... yeah. This is a problem that needs to be addressed.



Klaivex said:


> WS use theirs to strike and then distance themselves from the enemy and then strike again. WS are mechanised cavalry and cavalry is most effective on the charge, not in prolonged combat.


Said charges can be broken easily against other Astartes.



Klaivex said:


> I think any legion could best any other legion in the right circumstances. Like i said, if the NL got the WS in a ruined city with a lot of rubble and dead ends where they either couldn't get a good charge in or couldn't get away fast then the NL would ruin them.


Any legion in an urban setting with the proper set-up time could deal devastating blows to another legion. The NL are not special snowflakes in this regard.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry but tough. That IS their style of warfare, every single available piece of fluff in existence confirms this. I'm not saying they are shit against other astartes, but I will buy in that they don't gave any specific strengths against other astartes, but then neither do the Salamanders, Word Bearers, Iron Hands, or pretty much every fucking legion. Again, tough I'm afraid, it is what it is. Live with it.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Dark Angels blabber on about knightly honor despite their Primarch being king of the sucker punch


LOL after reading Savage Weapons, I wondered "why sucker-stab if you're not going to make it count?"

the Lion decked Russ with a punch, and yet when he went for the sucker-stab, he didn't put Curze down...
maybe it was supposed to show that the Lion isn't that ruthless

later on in the fight, the Lion showed extreme arrogance and Curze made him pay
I think if the Lion fought ruthlessly, he would've easily killed Curze
the Lion's level of swordsmanship was pretty phenomenal, Curze has no answer but managed to turn it into a brawl because the Lion was so dismissive of him



Rems said:


> Actually he has repeatedly said that the Night Lords struggle against other Astartes. That they lose even fights and try to only commit to combat with the balance heavily in their favour.


this makes perfect sense because criminal predators absolutely abhor "even" fights


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

As to the earlier post that the Thousand Sons didn't have it coming maybe you guys should read Thousand Sons again. One of the gods themselves confirms that no matter how the heresy went down or even if Horus didn't turn he and his legion were damned.He had it coming Heresy or no. As for the wolves versus the lords I'll go with the Lords. An execution force is only effective if overwhelming force and surprise can be achieved.

The Night Lords were one of the Legions that broke contact and moved back to their fortress in tact. The element of surprise would be pointless against a primarch with clairvoyance. Unless Kurze allowed himself to get waxed it would be a blood bath. If he submitted to the sanction he would never allow his sons to as well. His legion being able to function without him would mean his death would make things worse. 

The thousand sons have given the wolves a run for their money in the past due to surprise. Can you imagine if the Night Lords had been on Fenris instead of Magnus in Battle of the Fang? They would have razed the planet.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I dunno...
the TS were awesome psykers
their captains could rip apart enemy Astartes, Custodes, jetbikes, and even dreadnoughts using only their minds

TS had their strengths, so did the NL
the NL wouldn't necessarily be better at fending off the SW 

however, the NL would probably put up a much stronger defense than the TS because Curze probably wouldn't sabotage his own legion


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Well you just did call them useless against other Astartes and again, this notion that their only style of war involves scare tactics just doesn't sit well with me.


No i did not call them useless. What i said is that their preferred tactics are less effective against astartes opponents. This doesn't make them useless at all, they are still space marines themselves after all, they just don't have any special edge against astartes opponents. 

They can of course fight in various theatres and using a range of strategies. However their strength and speciality is terror tactics, which by their nature work best on civilian or at least 'mortal' opponents. The nIght Lords rle during the crusade was to suppress hostile populations, cow them into compliance and create bloody spectacles of retribution.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> No i did not call them useless. What i said is that their preferred tactics are less effective against astartes opponents. This doesn't make them useless at all, they are still space marines themselves after all, they just don't have any special edge against astartes opponents. However their strength and speciality is terror tactics, which by their nature work best on civilian or at least 'mortal' opponents. The nIght Lords rle during the crusade was to suppress hostile populations, cow them into compliance and create bloody spectacles of retribution.


I'm having a hard time imagining other Astartes being cowed by the Night Lord's terror tactics 

I'd like to read some hard specific examples of just how the NL are going to scare other Astartes 

are they going to mutilate corpses? chapters like the Space Wolves, World Eaters, and White Scars take heads as trophies themselves and are just as savage

maybe those Word Bearer pansies would be susceptible to fear


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

And they shall know no fear...Space Marines can't be scared


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> And they shall know no fear...Space Marines can't be scared


it just takes A LOT to unnerve a space marine
if your whole battle doctrine hinges on the use of fear as a weapon, the effectiveness of that tool is vastly diminished against other Astartes


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> The thousand sons have given the wolves a run for their money in the past due to surprise. Can you imagine if the Night Lords had been on Fenris instead of Magnus in Battle of the Fang? They would have razed the planet.


It was a single Great Company VS the largest number of Ruberic, Sorcerers, human troops, tanks and other implements of war that the Sons could put together, and even then the wolves did a number on them. When the rest of the chapter showed up, it was a slaughter. I would hardly say they gave the Wolves as a whole a run for their money, though, tbh, they did have the Fang.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Though admittedly they had to use a metric fuck ton(genuine unit measurement) of sorcery and arcane devices to achieve even that. Something the Night Lords don't even almost have access to. And Curze is good, but he can't literally make the very best priests of the Wolves explode just by clenching his fist, nor can he do the same to dreadnoughts. I can't see the Night Lords being even half as damaging as the Sons were.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

One woman could have put a stop to the Battle of the Fang.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Though admittedly they had to use a metric fuck ton(genuine unit measurement) of sorcery and arcane devices to achieve even that. Something the Night Lords don't even almost have access to. And Curze is good, but he can't literally make the very best priests of the Wolves explode just by clenching his fist, nor can he do the same to dreadnoughts. I can't see the Night Lords being even half as damaging as the Sons were.


True, without the kine(sp?) shields I doubt they would have even breached the walls with enough time remaining to do any real damage to the defenders still remaining at that point, if they could do it at all. And on that, lets face it, the Night Lords aren't popping up any kine shields around their nonexistent artillery batteries.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> tbh, they did have the Fang.


yeah...the fang kinda helped a lot


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

You have to remember Magnus had been getting on the big bad Emp's nerves for quite some time and Curze as far as as I know wasn't.



> yeah...the fang kinda helped a lot


Only until the TS blew to doors open with a few blasts from a medieval cannon and Magnus started walking up some stairs XD


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

I would like to quote someone else's answer to this question which I feel would be true to the circumstances.



DuskRaider said:


> As has been said many times before and even in other threads, it's all down to circumstances. On whose terms is the battle on? I can tell you that, especially against Night Lords, it wouldn't be one epic battle as it were against the Thousand Sons (which was hardly epic in the first place). Wolves may have better supplies in one particular area, but we're talking about a scouring that may span systems, as the Night Lords are mainly a fleet based Legion, which seems to be the case even before Curze declared Exterminatus on Nostramo. Psychological warfare also doesn't just involve scaring your opponent, it also involves making him second guess not only your next move, but even his own.
> 
> Night Lords wouldn't run screaming at an entire Legion of Wolves, they'd pick them off one by one. They're a lot more like Alpha Legion, IMO, than World Eaters or Space Wolves. They'll disrupt or hack into communications, they'll cast misinformation, they'll feign and distract, they'll cause your force to cast themselves in a million directions looking for you, and that's when you strike... when they're weaker, when they're scattered, when they're paranoid or on edge. You're also talking about a Legion that is larger than Space Wolves. There would be a lot of void wars, there would be elements hiding in compliant worlds. If the Space Wolves could actually tackle such a task, it would be at extreme loss, and due to the span of the purge itself would probably require a brother Legion's assistant, which would pull away from not only the Crusade, but the impending Civil War.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

I think that no matter what, it's in no way an easy win for either.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Exactly when did the Emperor send the Wolves after the Sons?

And for what it's worth, the codices on Choas that i have with me here describe the Lords as follows:

4th (5th ?) codex

- "Having slipped through the Cadian gate. a small flotilla of ships from the Night Lords legion spent months in the Warp evading detection by Imperial patrols and pickets"
-"Notes: Rapid attack, guerilla hit-and-run assaults"

3.5 codex

-Attacking by surprise
-Showing no mercy
-Not being tied to a leader (They kept going after kurze was killed).
-Their tactics are based on terror
-"No legion is as careful as them at severing enemy communicatins and making visible examples of those who who dare oppose them"
-"Darkness is their ally"
-They can see in the dark (Too many carrots methinks)
-"Aggressive patrolling and surprise raids are their stock in trade"
-"They will patiently win a hundred small victories in order to achieve their objectives rather than pinning everything on one big battle"

3rd codex

-"The legion had already earned a reputation for ferocity and savagery" (Sound familiar?)

There's no a whole lot of fluff on the Lords that has any bearing on this topic other than that in the 3rd codex. The book itself isn't even 50 pages long anyway.

2nd codex

There isn't really anything here that hasn't been said before. In fact, I think they just copied and pasted what was here into the 3rd codex... It basically says that the Lords are cynical and don't give a crap about human life.


So taking all of that into consideration, I wouldn't say that being scary is the only thing that they have going. They strike fast, hit and run, are hard to find and don't commit to big battles. I think those ast two would work really well against the Wolves, who love their big battles. Terror tactics wouldn't play that much a part in such a war anyway. Unless by terror tactics GW means terrorism, which would probably end the argument that the Night Lords are useless against other marines. 

Jihad!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think Curze deserved sanctioning more than Magnus did


Are you crazy? Magnus had disobeyed the strict edicts of Nikaea, irreversibly damaged the Imperial Webway, (in the Emperor's eyes) been corrupted by the warp and brought a ridiculous claim of Horus' rebellion, forced the Emperor to sit on the Golden Throne for years, near-flooded Terra in daemons, Et cetera. What had Curze done in comparison? Struck one of his brothers (that wasn't necessarily a rare thing among the Primarchs), destroyed a worthless world and fled into exile. Hardly deserving of more sanction than Magnus. 



jaysen said:


> If Russ had not gone after Magnus, then Magnus might have opened the Webway and totally screwed the Emperor's plans.


Umm... Magnus did open the Webway and totally screwed the Emperor's plans...



MontytheMighty said:


> Further, since Magnus was heading down the slippery slope of damnation, he could have fallen all the way and joined Horus. There lies the true threat. Horus + Magnus = win for chaos in the battle of terra.


Magnus did join Horus and was present during the Siege of Terra...



MontytheMighty said:


> World Eaters make just as good (if not better) butchers than the puppies


Using the World Eaters as a sanction force would have no doubt been effective in terms of physically taking on another Astartes Legion, but they were too wild and untamed. In contrast the Wolves were unflinchingly obedient and could be reigned in, the Eaters of Worlds couldn't.



MontytheMighty said:


> SW needed Silent Sister and Custodian support when taking on the TS, who were sabotaged by their own primarch
> 
> SW are great fighters and all but they're not these ultimate anti-Astartes trump cards


Any Legion would have required a contingent of Silent Sisters to combat the Thousand Sons, most of the XV Legion were potent psykers remember. And the Custodian contingent was to show that the Burning of Prospero was blessed by the Emperor.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I would of sent Raven Guard to sort out the Night Lords tbh


Really? I wouldn't have sent any Legion. The Night Lords were a dangerous force, but they were not willing to challenge the Imperium and were not dangerous to the Emperor's overall plans. Initiating an Inter-Legionary war without good reason would have been illogical. Curze destroyed Nostramo and led his Legion into exile, he didn't initiate a campaign against vital Imperial worlds or declare outright war against the Emperor, he simply fled into exile. If the Emperor wanted him dealt with, he should have just sent in assassins (which he apparently did).



MidnightSun said:


> I think that the Dark Angels were busy killing each other at the time Terra was attacked. I think.
> 
> Midnight


No that was post-Siege of Terra.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Really? I wouldn't have sent any Legion. The Night Lords were a dangerous force, but they were not willing to challenge the Imperium and were not dangerous to the Emperor's overall plans. Initiating an Inter-Legionary war without good reason would have been illogical. Curze destroyed Nostramo and led his Legion into exile, he didn't initiate a campaign against vital Imperial worlds or declare outright war against the Emperor, he simply fled into exile. If the Emperor wanted him dealt with, he should have just sent in assassins (which he apparently did).


I was just saying if any legion had to be sent I would of sent the Raven Guard, I wouldn't of sent a legion in the first place anyway, but instead maybe send someone to talk to Kurze in a more sympathetic tone than Dorn used to tell him off, maybe the Sigilite?


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