# Dark Eldar players, Why so Rare?



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

At first I thought it was a regional thing that there were so few Dark Eldar players, but the more I look at forums the more it becomes apparent that they are just extremly rare.

There was a chap that played them in our group who eventually became quite a nasty opponent to face, so I know its not because they are rap with a capital C.

So why do you think it is?


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Because nOObs (not newbies) think that they're crap. The predominant exposure a new player recieves in their early life will be nOObs, so eventually all those people telling them that Dark Eldar are crap eventually rubs off on them. I believe the general idea is that if so many people believe something, it must be true.


----------



## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

They haven't had a codex update in a dog's age, so it takes a bit more finesse to use them effectively. Doesn't mean they suck, just means Joe newbie may not know what they are doing enough to make it work...at least for a while till they get all the kinks worked out. 

Most new players try out either Space Marines (actually half of the 40k sales goes to SM) and SM are a sturdy, forgiving, flexible force. Great for newbies to try out the system and get used to it...and deadly in the hands of the truly experienced.

Dark Elves...not as forgiving, not as flexible. The few folks that do play them tend to know what they are about (usually older, more experienced players anyhow), and can certainly reinforce that the DE are still a viable army. 

It's unfortunate that they are so few and far between. I really hope they get a shiny new codex, new figs that knock our socks off, and the DE come back with a vengeance!


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

My prime army is Dark Eldar. I dont mean to gloat, but i think i am damn good with them.

From my vast experience, people simply think they are any army that is "too hard" to master. People also think the model are ugly. (The inucbi look so sweet! BUT NOT THAT CRAZY-HAIRED WARRIOR SPRUE!)


----------



## hephesto (Feb 24, 2007)

First of the old sculpts (some like incubi and haemonculi are 
great though) and indeed the very steep learning curve and unforgivingness of the the army.

An other big thing (in my opinion anway) is lack of exposure, most gw stores
and independant stores no longer have dark eldar boxes on shelf, the previous
catelogue only had half of the avaible models in it. The previous starter had space
marines and dark eldar in it, so their was a much bigger chance that people would
pick up the dark eldar. And with a battle force on shelf there is also the much
higher chance of someone getting started with them.


Real shame though, they are still one of my favs armies both game and fluffwise.
Alongside chaos and orks of course :wink:


----------



## Antioch (Dec 27, 2006)

The DE are stuck in the 80s. Literally. Hair metal to the max. 

Anyway, they require something called tactics to actually be successful. A lot of the new Tau kiddies don't have that. They just stick some big guns on the table and hope for the best. There is no room for error with a DE list.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

lol ohh so true, also at my local gaming store, i cannot find a single DE model.

hehe and about the SM being deadly in experienced hands, ive only being playing for 2 months with marines and im kickin ass. i think im pretty experienced, i play so often, 5 times a week or more. thats like 40 times on 2 months. i generally own up, and with my new tougher force well, what can i say, ive had 3 men hold up against a monolith, 2 heavy destroyers, 1 destroyer lord, 1 destroter and 20 men for 7 turns  , i call that pretty damn tough!


----------



## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

The vast majority of the DE models really suck! I love DE and i really want an army of them. Background wise, colours and how the army works ie;- great Bs, and rubbish armour. But until DE get new models, i ain't buying any!

MarzM :mrgreen:


----------



## dakari-mane (Mar 9, 2007)

To quote spikydavid:

"as only three people in the field are able to get over the extraordinary ugliness of the models to actually play Dark Eldar."

Full details here:
http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=27025&start=0


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

The ugly models is the thing that holds me back.


----------



## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

Bad models for the vets and too tricky for newbs too pick up and play.
Shame really as I really rate the codex Itself.


----------



## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

I think Dark Eldar fail for all the reasons mentioned, but also because of the few ways they can be successful. I think this is also what plagues the Orks. There are not that many ways to build a "good" ork or DE list. They are a powerful force when all of their tricks are combined and their tactics are refined into a fine point, but outside of that, most players are looking at a massive time and money sink without the instant gratification of "ownage". Toss on the bad sculpts and 80's hair metal band feel and it's no wonder so few people have an interest. Most people want to be the "good guy", and even those who don't will look at Chaos or Tyranids as the better choice for playing a "bad guy".


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> The problems are, imho, and i have a DE army. Some ugly models, as has been said, the kiddies cant work them, poor marketing. GW release a new army, included in the boxset, give them a 25 page codex, no background, basically fuck all, then expect them to sell well. Then release Tau, and they get 2 codex in 4 yrs?
Why?, because the noobs love them cos they got good armour, and big shooty bang bangs. Pisses me right off the 2 dex's, when Orks have to wait 7+ yrs or so, bullshit. :x


----------



## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Well first of all i'd like to say hi to dak! Hi! (waving) Congratulations on GT Dan! The Flobba Lobba Marine's done you well mate. Nice to see you also finally got a decent hair cut (lol). 

No but really, your a good guy and great fun to play against ( even with the socks) and you took and army (even tho DP's are wrong) that wasn't the usual crap that turns up! 

Congrats! 

But back to the issue. I think ED are great, it is just the models are so shite. Oh and i agree, It is fucking disgraceful that Orks and DE have waited so long for a new codex, Almost all the other armies have had at least 2 codex's in the same period, and well the chao's codex gets a new edition every other bloody month! 

Pish 

MarzM :mrgreen:


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Well they did "2nd Edition"-ify the DE codex, but that was like two new things in the entire codex.


----------



## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

For me it's been said above, the models are awful and they haven't got power armour.

Kids won't play em.


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Well, they are DE. They wouldnt have power armour. 

As far as i can tell, no army has power armour except marines..(of any sort) :roll: 

But incubi do have a 3+ save.


----------



## Hudge (Dec 24, 2006)

What firewolf said and when someone wants advice on who to use, no one says DE.


----------



## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Hudge said:


> What firewolf said and when someone wants advice on who to use, no one says DE.


Honestly though, why would anyone suggest DE to a new player? If theya re looking for good models, DE is not the palce to go. If they are looking for an affordable army, DE is not the palce to go. If they are looking for a good easy army to learn to use, DE is not the place to go. About the only time I would suggest DE to a new player is if they said, "I want to start a 40k army that's hard to use, has an out of date codex and is hit and miss in the models department and is on the back end of ever having an update."

I don't think it's good policy for us to suggest DE to new players so that GW sales will go up and _maybe_ in turn GW will do more for the army. It should work the other way around.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Exactly, I would never tell a newb to start with DE.Not just cos o the models, but they not easy to use, even for a vet.


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Oh, come on. They're not that hard to use. I proxied an army for a few weeks for the hell of it, and managed to win most of my battles, which, considering my zero prior experience with the army, implies that they are not all that hard. I just sat down and dissected the codex, confirmed that Dark Eldar were all about taking the initiative and strangling it, and that their speed had to be exploited.


----------



## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Nice uber, but how many brand new players will actually take the time to do that or none experianced players can reconize the purpose of them?
If some one like yourself can sit down and understand the codex and how to play them thats awsome, unfortunately most people starting cant so they see the codex and go "whaaa?"
I kno i did :lol:


----------



## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

I don't see a vet having serious trouble figuring them out either, since a lance is a lance, a fast skimmer transport is a fast skimmer transport ect. I have considered picking them up before but think Chaos marines or LatD has more options and flavor and are the superior choice.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

[Edited]

>> I love everyone.  

PS--Be nice!


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

No, I'm just saying they're not this magical super-impossible to play army that a good portion of the people in this thread seem to think they are, most likely without having played with the army themselves. They're no more difficult than a normal Eldar army, but on a completely different tack. The only real thing against them is their age, but since GW releases the bursts of newness in more or less sales order, that problem won't go away.

Perhaps, then, if your powers of deduction are so cunningly brilliant, you could think of a way to sell moe Dark Eldar, and thus move up the schedule on the new codex, instead of wasting them here complaining abut something without ever getting anything done.

Or, even better, you could shut the hell up when you don't know what you're talking about. It works just fine for me, and means that there's a small chance my posts will actually help somebody. Perhaps this is why a respectable number of people on this board actually care what I have to say?


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

That was nice :? 

So what we all aggree on is that the Dark Eldar need:

1) New sculpts on the Miniuatures, because nobody finds them appealing.
2) More fluff so that people can get a feel for the army.
3) Codex update in general.

More details of things that need updating or anything else that needs a change anyone?


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

I think some expansive changes are in order because the inexplicable aura of 'don't play this' cast by the current Dark Eldar won't be cast off unless the changes are massive. I'm just hoping that GW doesn't listen to the people saying that Dark Eldar aren't powerful enough, because if they got much better, they'd be almost unstoppable.


----------



## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

I certainly hope GW does not think theya re under powered, just underplayed. Mostly, I see the Dark Eldar as getting one more shot before GW dumps them. I can't imagine them revamping the army, having it not sell any better past the expected "zomg new army11!!!" phase, and keeping them around for the long haul. In my limited experience against them, I butchered them badly with both marines and orks, so I'm certainly no authority on them. Maybe the vet DE players can give us an idea of what they would like to see changed about them to make them more appealing?


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

As a DE vet:

Really, the models. I agree that the warrior spues look very old. Incubi rock though.

The rules are fine for me, except hellions and mandrakes are rather useless.

Grotesques only fit in sometimes.

Perhaps adding a new vehicle?


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

zomg i actually found some DE models in my local store!!, albeit they were tucked away in some dark and dusty corner


----------



## Inquisition_Symphony (Mar 8, 2007)

really i think its stupid that they discontinued the dark eldar. my gf just recently got really into playing them. a couple nights back she slaughtered my buddys orks. even without splinter cannons.


----------



## Archondragomyr (Mar 12, 2007)

Well as a Dark Eldar player /wave...we all know that the vast majority of the sculpts took 20 minutes to do. The mandrakes are a just awful. The look like they are wearing chaps or thongs and a submissive mask. To field them I painted pants on them and took off a few details. Many of the models are in dire need of a revamp *cough* grotesques *cough*.

Bottom line is the Codex is not that bad, and much more playable than the current Ork codex. The warriors are one of the best values of any troop choices. But, the whole codex needs more variety. Maybe even a veteran squad that has a kroot gun effect, or CCW/pistols for Raider Squads, or Mandrakes having poisoned blades like the fluff, or atleast upgrade options for a leader.

Now, the rumors and what I hear from the grapevine(I game at a Battle Bunker) is that the main guy that redid the Eldar are on the case for redoing the Dark Eldar. The codex is in the pipe for around late this year or sometime next, depending on how much trouble the Orky dex gives them. What I have heard is plastic Wyches, let me just say Hurrah! and a overhaul on the dex. Now, no details of what will change, but DE players begged for some of the units like Scourges to be tweaked, and other units to get Veteran like skills. For Example Incubi Master with an exarch like skill system, or atleast the bodyguard rule for Drazhar. 

Now, I have heard that they are not getting their own Harlies, in fact they will never release the Solitaire  But, Wyches compete directly versus Harlies for a spot in the army list and I prefer Wyches myself. I have a smaller Wych Cult, 2k or so points, and a large DE force. The whole line is getting a look, so my suggestion of DE warriors might see the light of day 

I have used the newer guardian bodies with Dark Eldar bits for years, love the 6 pack abs and detail of the guardians. Of course the wacky hair guy never gets the nod.

Here is an example of what I am talking about:




Just my ramblings on the matter. I have no intention on not continuing to play Dark Eldar, I just don't want them changed into something they are not.


----------



## Hudge (Dec 24, 2006)

Yes, good point WD.


----------



## Archondragomyr (Mar 12, 2007)

Warboss Dakka said:


> Maybe the vet DE players can give us an idea of what they would like to see changed about them to make them more appealing?


Well this is my opinion but some units are basically worthless for the points and cannot hope to be worthy without modifications. The model line needs reworked, resculpts and a better look overall. Some of the later rules like Vehicle and Arcane wargear were afterthoughts and not useful in 4th Ed.

99% of the players don't take certain units even with recent upgrades to them in the Codex update. Hellions, by far some of the best looking models, yet nigh worthless. GW thinks that we do not have anti marine, so they give us models that can get STR 4 on the charge, or 5 with a good drug roll, and they come with jump packs. Sweet sign me up! Well they are much more expensive than wyches, are more limited to gear upgrades, all those nifty Wych rules are off the table, and the save is just not fitting of a Wych. If they had the jink and the wych CC save they would be worth the points. Hit and run is gravy. Jetbikes are the ones that need hit and run. 

The DE Fast attack is a joke. Ok everyone and their brother gets better jetbikes than the originator of the turbo boost. Our kin have better bikes and all of a sudden are uber by comparison. Is the RJB a CC unit, shooting unit? Well 2 blasters is viable, but splinter rifles on the RJB with no upgrades? The RJB itself is fine, spiky bits should be something I guess that is rolled into the +1 str and +1 Toughness.

Warriors rock, don't get me wrong. However it would be nice to have CC warriors with splinter pistols, CC weapon or just give them the Kroot gun rule for a few points. Maybe even Veteran Warriors to fill a niche role. They are slave takers afterall. Our troops is Warriors, or Warriors in Raiders. Woot. Our vehicle Wargear is a nice try at fluff, but no real value. 

HQ is fine, Retinue could use some exarch esque skills possibly like Drazhars special rule.

Elites are rather decent especially wyches. Mandrakes and Grotesque need some kind of upgrade variety. Poisoned blades for Mandrakes as per the fluff, even a leader type unit. Grotesque with 3 Arms for more attacks, or drugs for +1 str, something. Feel no pain needs revisited for this edition.

Heavy Support, Scourges are rather awful for use. City Fights they can work ok, but no rapid set up for Heavy Weapons and Jump Packs that do them no real good. They seem like they have no role, and how can they be Heavy support without some more punch? Split fire, rapid setup something unique. Ravagers(Wyvern) is fine. Talos is very slow and far too random. Atleast give it D6 +1 attacks for 2 CC weapons. Also, it is a monstrous floaty creature but its own armor penetration rule is useless especially versus a Lith. It needs some upgrade options, like the Tail can be changed to a different weapon, Disintegrator/Big version of the Haemmie stinger that would be very cool. It has a big turbo engine on the back, why not boost 1/ time per game for extra points.

Just some quick thoughts.


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

because only gods can win with them and deities aren't necessarily easy to get

but the models are ugly i think there's going to be an update soon
and if theres not :evil:


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

I got a DE army, it was my buddies but he decided not to play so I inherited them. They seem preety solid in the right hands, But I belive they could use some more stuff, like:

1)vetran skills for hamonculi or archons and retinues
2)squad set with a raider
3)scourges have a better save throw maybe?

BTW has anyone seen the new wytches set on advanced order? maybe this is a sign of things to come?


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Not seen those, any link?


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/...2041&orignav=302041&ParentID=259378&GameNav=9


----------



## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

Saw them in the new WD. They are repackaged from the existing Wyches range.

We have a couple players who have them and do very, very well with them. There are a few ways to play them successfully. The biggest complaint from both of them is transporting the Raiders. They break easily. For the most part, the models don't stack up to nearly everything else in the 40K range; they are very bland and uninspiring to paint.

Back in 2nd edition, when I first read anything about Dark Eldar (Ultramarine Codex), I couldn't wait to see if GW would do a Dark Eldar race. Then 3rd edition came out and I was sorely disappointed. I literally put together two models and quit; just horrible looking in my opinion.


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

YES. Raider break so easily!

When i play DE, i have to carry those into the store by hand. 

As well as the Ravager.


----------



## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Yeah, the new Wyches are pretty much just repackages. But I think there are SOME new models in there. Just very few. I think they Dark Eldar are due updating pretty soon, to.


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

The models seem a litter slimmer from the previous versions, take a close look at the succubus (with whip and pistol) doesnt the model seem more shapely? also they could be plastic, the description doesnt say wethter it is or not.


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Whaaat? Those are new? I thought that is wat was said, but they look exactly the same. I thought you popstedthe wrogn link or summink.


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

no there definatly a slight but good change bring on the new dark eldar and if this turns out to be a hoax :evil:


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

Well, if its a hoax who wants to storm GW?


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

count me in , mite just take some models i want with me when i leave the building


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

then we can move on to parliament and over throw the goverment
mmm


----------



## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Yay! Storming buildings! I'll get my Lascannon!


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

not if i get there first yoink your lascannon has just been assimalated into the tau empire 

...or was it an ork WAAAAGH you just don't know :mrgreen:


----------



## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Fine then, my venom cannon. Assimilate that, fool!


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

i don't have to i've got a flamer 

p.s this topic no longer has anything to dowith dark eldar


----------



## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

I'll get the Iron Warriors.

:twisted:


----------



## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

Yup nothing to do with dark eldar at all but i'll bring the rail gun 
wait if some delude psychopath comes on this a goes along with it could we be held responsible. lets see that would be the 5th time i was charged with treason :mrgreen:


----------



## Larkin (Mar 18, 2007)

ill bring my long las


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

So we all agree that....

One: This thread is way off track.
Two: The Dark Eldar need new sculpts badly.
Three: The rules for them just need a very minor tweaking but on the whole are fine.

These things will hopefully make DEs more appealing to more players.


----------



## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Hmmm, addind a new unit or teo won't go amiss...


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

i agree, with all 3 points, now wheres that Exitus rifle gone......


----------



## Larkin (Mar 18, 2007)

i think some of the units need a makeover. some of the units look just horrible (ie most of them)


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Models are old ones. Its just the 5 man box set coupled up wi some of the wych weapon blisters. I own all the models in the box, and thats how I bought them, boxset and blisters. Would have been nice if they were new and plastic.


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

I think that they would get a major popularity boost if the next dawn of war had them....


----------



## Archondragomyr (Mar 12, 2007)

Greyskullscrusade said:


> I think that they would get a major popularity boost if the next dawn of war had them....


This would be a great boon indeed. A mod was in the works for it, but it has stalled. Pity, it would have been fun to run around the Archon of Doom.


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

By the way the DE have the BEST daemon prince killer, A talos for 3 turns stood up to a fully tooled (with dread axe 2) daemon price, he died, but inflicted more than enough damage while holding him in check for half the game. Ill mention that he'll never charge my talos now :twisted:


----------



## Hudge (Dec 24, 2006)

I love playing against DE you can just pick holes in them, it's so fun.


----------



## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

i think they'd be more attractive if they had better models. at the moment they look like body builders on steroids squeezed into size 2 latex clothing :?


----------

