# Review question: Picking apart a book good for business?



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

my reviews on DSM have always had a high point/low point at the end of the review. Ive always linked my reviews to BL on facebook twitter in an attempt to get a RT or a mention, ive even sprucked them to the authors. Guess what... no love. Now ive read some of the other reviews they link to or mention and i think my reviews are just as well written and informative (with the exception of Graeme's). However, something other reviews dont have that mine does is a 'low point' or negative side to the book. Do you think the fact that i always find some flaw with the book and include that in my review is hurting my chances of getting publicity from BL? Do i have to kiss more ass in reviews to get noticed?

In my eyes, no book is ever perfect. thus, it has a low point as some stage (no matter how minor). 

so... my question is... should i remove the high point/low point from my reviews?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Until you get noticed, I'm guessing that it's not going to hurt to tongue a tight little brown one. Then, you can be as critical as you like.

I can't say I've read any reviews but just laying it out as HP/LP, instead try incorporating it into sentence structure, just using simple conjunctives, e.g "Leoten Semper is an excellently written character with a consistent flow of choices which showcase his capability and often all too human notions and fears. However, aside from that, there's no additional interest in the character, and other than the knowledge that should his death occur, I'd feel a passing sadness, but not on the level that a more well established character should have."

It's got High and Low Points without Highlighting one or the other, and if the Quality Control allows tripe like the Heresy series to be published (which merely uses it's name to publish more), then they're likely to miss something as obvious as a hidden barb/sniping comment.


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## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

Yes, it is very possible that it could be a reason for BL. Look at the comments on BL site. There are plenty of ''reviews'' that give books highest rates many months [even year] before that particular book will be printed. I took even part in discussion about that subject onboard now dead BL forum. And about matter of pleasing them more in your reviews.....well if you like kissing asses it is yours decission.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that identifying a low point isn't the point of a review, its to show what is good about the novel and if required to identify its flaws, however sometimes flaws can be good. I don't include a high point or low point anymore as its my opinion and I prefer to let the readers decide what they think is the best part of the book.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Brother Subtle said:


> my reviews on DSM have always had a high point/low point at the end of the review. Ive always linked my reviews to BL on facebook twitter in an attempt to get a RT or a mention, ive even sprucked them to the authors. Guess what... no love. Now ive read some of the other reviews they link to or mention and i think my reviews are just as well written and informative (with the exception of Graeme's). However, something other reviews dont have that mine does is a 'low point' or negative side to the book. Do you think the fact that i always find some flaw with the book and include that in my review is hurting my chances of getting publicity from BL? Do i have to kiss more ass in reviews to get noticed?
> 
> In my eyes, no book is ever perfect. thus, it has a low point as some stage (no matter how minor).
> 
> so... my question is... should i remove the high point/low point from my reviews?


Personally I like the High Point/Low Point thing at the end of your reviews, I can understand why Black Library might not but from a reader's point of view I suggest you keep it.


Lord of the Night said:


> I think that identifying a low point isn't the point of a review, its to show what is good about the novel and if required to identify its flaws, however sometimes flaws can be good. I don't include a high point or low point anymore as its my opinion and I prefer to let the readers decide what they think is the best part of the book.


You think identifying a Low Point isn't a part of a review but identifying it's flaws is? Are you high?
Surely passing an opinion on what they thought were the best and worst parts of any product is pretty much the job description for a reviewer...well a good one at least.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Firstly, i've stopped reading reviews before i've read the book. They are naturally subjective in opinion and can slant your view of a book by either being unfairly negative or too enthusiastic (and I hate spoilers - even if vague).

I only read reviews to see if people liked/disliked the same things I did and to then go on and discuss the book.

Any publisher of a niche genre/franchise is unlikely to quote from negative or even neutral reviews unless the review is in such a place that it will promote the book to a wider audience (eg in a Newspaper or supplement).

That being said I think any reviewer should place integrity of opinion above getting quoted, otherwise no one will respect you.

One of my pet peeves is that many of the books reviewed on here are given reviews along the line of 8 or 9 out of 10. I may even be guilty of it on occasion.

It seems to me that the best of the best currently available from BL should be given 8 or 9 and most novels should fairly sit at 5. Not to say that most novels are poor (that is simply not the case), but that the current review scale is actually set so most books are 8-10 with the odd particularly poor book at 5. For those who do read the reviews and make purchase decisions on the strength of the reviews it does devalue the exceptional books from those that are simply enjoyable.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

If I was to give a book a 5, i doubt I would finish it in the first place. I'm not going to finish a shitty book soley for the basis of giving it a shit review. 5/10 means it was just readable. In this day and age I don't have to settle for that.

My lowest review to date was 6.5/10 for Rynn's World. In hindsight I could have bumped it down to maybe 6. But even then Rynn's World is my current 'minimum standard' I bother reading. This is why I haven't reviewed any Goto, as it would be rubbish, I'm not going to bother.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> You think identifying a Low Point isn't a part of a review but identifying it's flaws is? Are you high?
> 
> Surely passing an opinion on what they thought were the best and worst parts of any product is pretty much the job description for a reviewer...well a good one at least.


I worded that badly. I mean that identifying a low point usually means that spoilers will be present, or that it involves saying that specific parts of the novel are bad when to others they may be good. I try to avoid that by not including one and including the flaws that I feel will be universally recognized.

And if you think im a bad reviewer, say it. Don't hide it behind double-speak.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> If I was to give a book a 5, i doubt I would finish it in the first place. I'm not going to finish a shitty book soley for the basis of giving it a shit review. 5/10 means it was just readable. In this day and age I don't have to settle for that.
> 
> My lowest review to date was 6.5/10 for Rynn's World. In hindsight I could have bumped it down to maybe 6. But even then Rynn's World is my current 'minimum standard' I bother reading. This is why I haven't reviewed any Goto, as it would be rubbish, I'm not going to bother.


My point is that 5 should be the average good book with good and bad points, but on this forum and other places the average good book is placed at around 8, which means that exceptional books don't stick out and a 'bad book' is identified by simply not being reviewed a 8+ out of 10.

LOTN's review scale at http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72809 is quite good but maybe slightly too generous (only slightly mind).


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> I worded that badly. I mean that identifying a low point usually means that spoilers will be present, or that it involves saying that specific parts of the novel are bad when to others they may be good. I try to avoid that by not including one and including the flaws that I feel will be universally recognized.
> 
> And if you think im a bad reviewer, say it. Don't hide it behind double-speak.


I think you *were* a bad reviewer but you have significantly improved.

In my mind a review is supposed to subjective, we're getting 'your' opinion on the book- parts of the book you thought were good others might not, and vice versa.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> And if you think im a bad reviewer, say it. Don't hide it behind double-speak.


i do think your a little over generous with your scores, especially to ADB novels. While the first heretic was an absolute cracker of a read. it was not 10/10.

As the baron said, you have improved in recent times which is a credit to you.

I'm not perfect, im still trying to find that delicate balance between letting people know what happens in the book (to generate interest) but not create spoilers. I find im improving with every review... well i like to think i am. But i seem to be getting more hits per day as of late which i good news.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> i do think your a little over generous with your scores, especially to ADB novels. While the first heretic was an absolute cracker of a read. it was not 10/10.
> 
> As the baron said, you have improved in recent times which is a credit to you.
> 
> I'm not perfect, im still trying to find that delicate balance between letting people know what happens in the book (to generate interest) but not create spoilers. I find im improving with every review... well i like to think i am. But i seem to be getting more hits per day as of late which i good news.


I stand by my score for _The First Heretic_, it earned the 10/10 in my eyes, but I have admitted that my first score of 10/10 for _Soul Hunter_ was too generous, its an 8-9 at best.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Most of reviewers here seem to be too genorous at BL books. I see huge amount of 9/10 or even 10/10. If book is good 7/10 is enough. Bad books should be under 5. Think some people should just do review without ratings and it could be even better. Some describe flaws in book and even then give it 10/10.

Subtle just keep what you doing and BL might notice that, but dont change your style just to kiss ass. Keep your own style and in time maybe you get rewarded.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree that The First Heretic is a 10/10. Best in the Horus Heresy so far. But soul Hunter I would also give a 9/10, I really did love it. 

As for giving a high point and a low point... If you want BL to publish your reviews I would leave out the low points. I mean no author likes a review highlighting the parts they didn't like after publishing. But then again its all your own opinion. I read the DSM's reviews and in most cases I agree with you about the low points of a book, but in a few I disagree. For example in Soul Hunter you said that the Scene with Abaddon was disappointing, but I thought it worked really well. But that just my opinion.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

raider1987 said:


> For example in Soul Hunter you said that the Scene with Abaddon was disappointing, but I thought it worked really well. But that just my opinion.


really? Abaddon is the chosen of Chaos, the uber numero uno Chaos Space marine, the person who has destroyed a thousand worlds, and will destroy a thousand more. Do you think he would have tolerated being talked to with such disrespect as Talos displayed to him? i think not. I don't care how bad Abaddon wanted Talos to enter his service. Abaddon would have hacked off Talos' head within the first few exchanges after such insolence. Well, thats the Abaddon i know in 40k. Im pretty sure 'The Despoiler' doesn't take any shit. Especially from other Chaos Space marine legions he would consider beneath him.

I did quite enjoy Soul Hunter, as i gave it a good review. But this was one thing that really bugged me. A 'softer and tolerant' Abaddon was not for my liking.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Plenty of the reviews BL links to have negative critiques in them, but they tend to be relatively minimal and (IMHO) and fairly-raised points incorporated into the review in logical places, much like Vaz sugested. 
Whah-whah moans are always best left out of a reviews and overly detailed crits are better served for an analysis article than a review. 
BL use these things as part of their marketing strategy. Reviews are free adverts. So, I guess if you want to be linked to by the BL facebook or whatever, bear that in mind. 

Scoring in book reviews is completely bogus IMHO, as hardly any book reviewers mention the technical aspects of the works, which is really about the only thing one can definitively rate where novels are concerned. I don't pay attention to numerical ratings for books - the review should be written well enough that I get everything I need from it without some arbitrary number being tacked onto the end - but understand why people do it and well, fair enough. 

Some of the people here write interesting and thoughtful reviews and I wish you luck in getting them popularised ,if that's the aim.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

raider1987 said:


> I mean no author likes a review highlighting the parts they didn't like after publishing.


Actually I would say most (intelligent) authors actually enjoy the criticism. 

There is no point constantly heaping praise (and no criticism) on an individual author, because if he's making mistakes he will continue to make said mistakes. Relavent criticisms help authors to expand their horizons and produce better material.

I agree with _Mob_ and _Vaz_ where reviews are concerned, instead of seperate _high/low_ points, incorporate the criticisms within the the main _'block'_ of the review.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

^ i'm thinking that might be the go.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> really? Abaddon is the chosen of Chaos, the uber numero uno Chaos Space marine, the person who has destroyed a thousand worlds, and will destroy a thousand more. Do you think he would have tolerated being talked to with such disrespect as Talos displayed to him? i think not. I don't care how bad Abaddon wanted Talos to enter his service. Abaddon would have hacked off Talos' head within the first few exchanges after such insolence. Well, thats the Abaddon i know in 40k. Im pretty sure 'The Despoiler' doesn't take any shit. Especially from other Chaos Space marine legions he would consider beneath him.
> 
> I did quite enjoy Soul Hunter, as i gave it a good review. But this was one thing that really bugged me. A 'softer and tolerant' Abaddon was not for my liking.


For me, Soul Hunter was the first full novel I had read outside the heresy so the first time I had encountered Abaddon in the 41st millennium. So it made sense to me that Abaddon wasn't just a screaming nutter psycho who killed anyone who didn't agree with him. He really needed to have Talo's on his side, and to me at least it seemed that he was enjoying the verbal sparing. But eventually he did crack and just shot Talos though lol.


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

I think the problem with reviewing anything - be it books, TV, or movies is the age-old question of 'taste'. So for example, whilst Reviewer A really enjoys, say, _The First Heretic_ and gives it a generous 9/10, Reviewer B may not find it to their taste. They only give it 7/10.

Does this make one person right and one person wrong? Certainly not. It merely highlights the fact that what floats one person's boat is the torpedo that sinks another. Yet on forums the internet over, there are endless 'YOU'RE WRONG, NO YOU'RE WRONG, NO YOU'RE WRONG' style discussions by people who firmly believe that everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.

I don't think listing 'high points' and 'low points' in a story is necessarily a bad thing if it's presented in a sensible, mature and (dare I say it) constructive way.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Pyroriffic said:


> I think the problem with reviewing anything - be it books, TV, or movies is the age-old question of 'taste'. So for example, whilst Reviewer A really enjoys, say, _The First Heretic_ and gives it a generous 9/10, Reviewer B may not find it to their taste. They only give it 7/10.
> 
> Does this make one person right and one person wrong? Certainly not. It merely highlights the fact that what floats one person's boat is the torpedo that sinks another. Yet on forums the internet over, there are endless 'YOU'RE WRONG, NO YOU'RE WRONG, NO YOU'RE WRONG' style discussions by people who firmly believe that everyone is entitled to THEIR opinion.
> 
> I don't think listing 'high points' and 'low points' in a story is necessarily a bad thing if it's presented in a sensible, mature and (dare I say it) constructive way.


An author who agrees with a mature form of reviewing, is it 2012 already?

[that was sarcasm of sorts by the way]


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Black Library is like any publisher: they get a fair share of bad reviews from their reviewers, but don't publish them. A recognised industry problem is that with the decline of the professional critic, we've lost a lot of intelligent reviewing in media. Amazon reviews run the gamut of opinion, as often typed by frothing idiot children and people incapable of understanding nuance, as they are by rational, smart folks. It's like that all over the show.

Don't sweat about being honest in a review. BL, like any other publisher, wants intelligent and well-considered reviews, even if the reviewer in question doesn't like everything. So there's no need to kiss ass, really.



Brother Subtle said:


> really? Abaddon is the chosen of Chaos, the uber numero uno Chaos Space marine, the person who has destroyed a thousand worlds, and will destroy a thousand more. Do you think he would have tolerated being talked to with such disrespect as Talos displayed to him? i think not. I don't care how bad Abaddon wanted Talos to enter his service. Abaddon would have hacked off Talos' head within the first few exchanges after such insolence. Well, thats the Abaddon i know in 40k. Im pretty sure 'The Despoiler' doesn't take any shit. Especially from other Chaos Space marine legions he would consider beneath him.
> 
> I did quite enjoy Soul Hunter, as i gave it a good review. But this was one thing that really bugged me. A 'softer and tolerant' Abaddon was not for my liking.


That's exactly why it did work. He wasn't soft at all, he just wasn't (and indeed, isn't) a mindless RRAAAARRRRGH kind of leader. Abaddon very clearly _didn't care_. That whole scene was a three-minute favour to another warlord; he was so far above such things, that he made the offer, then left to deal with real business. He even says as much to Ruven.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Black Library is like any publisher: they get a fair share of bad reviews from their reviewers, but don't publish them. A recognised industry problem is that with the decline of the professional critic, we've lost a lot of intelligent reviewing in media. Amazon reviews run the gamut of opinion, as often typed by frothing idiot children and people incapable of understanding nuance, as they are by rational, smart folks. It's like that all over the show.
> 
> Don't sweat about being honest in a review. BL, like any other publisher, wants intelligent and well-considered reviews, even if the reviewer in question doesn't like everything. So there's no need to kiss ass, really.


Thanks for the advice ADB, I guess my reviews are more for people with a bit of a 40k background, that way i dont have to explain what a space marine is every bloody review. I might stick to my guns as the majority of 40kers (mainly from this forum) seem to like my take on books. I only do it for me, so as long as im happy... thats all that matters.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That's exactly why it did work. He wasn't soft at all, he just wasn't (and indeed, isn't) a mindless RRAAAARRRRGH kind of leader. Abaddon very clearly _didn't care_. That whole scene was a three-minute favour to another warlord; he was so far above such things, that he made the offer, then left to deal with real business. He even says as much to Ruven.


ok how do i go about this *figures out how to give criticism to one of his favorite authors*. By 'Take no shit' i didn't mean Abaddon was a 'Rahhhh, do what i say Talos, Rahhh, off with his head! etc etc' kind of Warmaster. I knew he was more diplomatic than that. I just though it was more the way Talos spoke to the Warmaster that shouldn't have been tolerated. I mean, yes. Abaddon was hoping to get Talos, but as you said. He wasn't super fussed. Thus, when Talos was being a witty little prick to him i figured Abaddon would have simply reminded him who he was talking to and if he spoke with such disrespect again Abaddon would tear his spine out then and there. As i was reading i was thinking 'Your the farking Warmaster! Are you going to take such disrespect from a piss ant chaos marine from a legion you think are cannon fodder!'. Now lets bring this back to reality, what we are discussing here is a very minute detail in an otherwise very good book. I very much enjoyed it. If i was you and this was the only point of criticism a reviewer could find in your book, id be pretty chuffed! But yeah, thats just how i felt, and so i shared it.

p.s. If you could leave a comment on my blog on any of your books ive reviewed id be super honored dude. 

p.p.s. Mages suck in wow. :grin:


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> An author who agrees with a mature form of reviewing, is it 2012 already?
> 
> [that was sarcasm of sorts by the way]


Of course. Sarcasm aside, any rational person - readers as well as authors - should always keep in mind that no two people are going to share the same opinion. From what I've read on t'interwebs, there are a lot of people who say things like 'if you don't agree with everything I say, then you're wrong/clearly have no taste.'

There's nothing mature in that sort of approach to reviewing and certainly from an author viewpoint I personally would take nothing useful from such a thing. From a reader viewpoint, if I find a review full of venom and bile because one thing isn't to the reviewer's taste, I largely ignore it.

I quite like the use of high point/low point idea in Brother Subtle's reviews and have linked to it from the Bolthole.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Pyroriffic said:


> I quite like the use of high point/low point idea in Brother Subtle's reviews and have linked to it from the Bolthole.


Really? Thanks heaps! You wouldn't have a link to that on the bolthole would you?


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

Not a problem.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/bljunkies/index.php?showtopic=2446


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> ok how do i go about this *figures out how to give criticism to one of his favorite authors*. By 'Take no shit' i didn't mean Abaddon was a 'Rahhhh, do what i say Talos, Rahhh, off with his head! etc etc' kind of Warmaster. I knew he was more diplomatic than that. I just though it was more the way Talos spoke to the Warmaster that shouldn't have been tolerated. I mean, yes. Abaddon was hoping to get Talos, but as you said. He wasn't super fussed. Thus, when Talos was being a witty little prick to him i figured Abaddon would have simply reminded him who he was talking to and if he spoke with such disrespect again Abaddon would tear his spine out then and there. As i was reading i was thinking 'Your the farking Warmaster! Are you going to take such disrespect from a piss ant chaos marine from a legion you think are cannon fodder!'. Now lets bring this back to reality, what we are discussing here is a very minute detail in an otherwise very good book. I very much enjoyed it. If i was you and this was the only point of criticism a reviewer could find in your book, id be pretty chuffed! But yeah, thats just how i felt, and so i shared it.


I liked that scene actually. Would have been totally different if there were audience listening to that, then Abaddon could have propably smacked him across face. He has to be real diplomat too, he wouldnt have so many troops if all would be frightened of him killing them. He might be hothead, but there is time and place for everything and liked this scene very much.


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