# How do you beat a Daemon Prince?



## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

So I am having problem beating my friends CSM Daemon Prince I am playing a Dark Angels army. Before he got the DP I used to win every game unless I played something ridiculous. He just swoops in and starts to maul everything with that mace that exploads on kill. One of the effective way I found so far is to DW Assault with Belial and 10 DW knights manage to get charge, so 11 HoW attacks, and pray that I manage to wound him enough. Once he got lucky on a daemon weapon roll and had 12 attacks and just wiped out my whole squad on his initiative step that's like 500 points gone on turn 2. What is the most effective way of dealing with a Daemon Prince?


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## lokyar (Apr 24, 2011)

depends on what you have in your list and what point cost your playing at. I would say shoot it with lots of shit. Also isnt the explody mace ap4?


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

The mace becomes AP2 since the prince is a monstrous creature
The prince fears: St10 hits, force weapons, due to Instant death rule. If he flies, you should quadgun it down the sky, make it groundcrash and then shoot with bolters. When i'm confronted by a zooming DP I go with twinlinked plasmaguns or autocannons, then he crushes and it's finished by bolter fire...4 wounds and T5 are not so hard to kill...unless you go hand to hand...


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

isn't your army supposed to be good with plasma weapons?

just use those...

Also Neferhet is spot on, if it is flying shoot it out of the sky with a quad gun or something and then just dakka it to death with bolters.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

As others have mentioned, you simply need to avoid getting in CC with it. Blast it away with a hail of bullets and it will go down. If you get in CC with it, you will most likely loose unless you have a squad with enough STR10 weapons to last through it's charge and then instant death it.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

@Fallen they are in fluff but sadly GW dint bother enough to show it in the rules or wargear in anyway. so they are the same as vanilla marines with plasma.

@neferhet so aegis line with quad gun is a must this days huh... Also don't you guys think bolters are a bit underpowered? If they were assault 2 it would be perfect but only 5 shots at. 24 inches for 70 points seems to expansive and underpowered? Then again they got grenade, 3+ save, and 4. 
The thing is let's say he swoops in 24 then I shoot him down and he fails inv save, he gets one wound lucky 2 or 3 if I managed to hit him. But on his next turn he just swoops again and charges into CC wipes some squad gets a boon and simply goes from CC to CC so I can't shoot him!!
@Nordicus Ye that's what those Deathwing knights are for just drop in with Belial pop smite mode on my initiative step and its hammer time if I'm lucky and out of 9 knights no one died then he will get 18 str 10 ap 1 melee concussive attacks :3 the thing is he might be able to wipe Belial with knights before I can hit him coz he has the item that makes all area within 12 " difficult terrain or dangerous for deep striking.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Stormxlr said:


> @neferhet so aegis line with quad gun is a must this days huh... Also don't you guys think bolters are a bit underpowered? If they were assault 2 it would be perfect but only 5 shots at. 24 inches for 70 points seems to expansive and underpowered? Then again they got grenade, 3+ save, and 4.
> The thing is let's say he swoops in 24 then I shoot him down and he fails inv save, he gets one wound lucky 2 or 3 if I managed to hit him. But on his next turn he just swoops again and charges into CC wipes some squad gets a boon and simply goes from CC to CC so I can't shoot him!!


If you face flyers, yes its a must have. Consider it a "tax on fun"...
Then, if you shoot it, you are not shooting it just to crush it and deal 1 wound. You shoot it until it is dead. I can't believe you just have 10 bolter shots to spare on him. A quadgnu, a devastator squad with missile launchers, a tactical squad in 12" range: he is dead. 
Remember the teaching of the Tactica Imperialis: "Identify your target. Concentrate your fire on it to the exclusion of all else. When it is destroyed choose another target. That is the way to secure victory!"
When you kill hiss 200+ points monster you can be assured that victory is near. Also, never underestimate the psychoilogical backlash on your foe. When he sees his DP killed by an overwhelming and accurate response he will act stupid. Trust me


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Stormxlr said:


> they are in fluff but sadly GW dint bother enough to show it in the rules or wargear in anyway. so they are the same as vanilla marines with plasma.


Except the Land Speeder Vengeance, Plasma Talons, Deathwing Plasma Cannons, Lion's Wrath and Divination.



Stormxlr said:


> so aegis line with quad gun is a must this days huh... Also don't you guys think bolters are a bit underpowered? If they were assault 2 it would be perfect but only 5 shots at. 24 inches for 70 points seems to expansive and underpowered? Then again they got grenade, 3+ save, and 4.
> The thing is let's say he swoops in 24 then I shoot him down and he fails inv save, he gets one wound lucky 2 or 3 if I managed to hit him. But on his next turn he just swoops again and charges into CC wipes some squad gets a boon and simply goes from CC to CC so I can't shoot him!!


Bolters are fine - they do pretty brutal things to Guardsmen and Tyranids in the open, as they're supposed to, and tend to bounce off armoured infantry, as they're supposed to. He cannot Swoop and charge in the same turn, nor can he get Boons. He can assault a unit and kill it, but when the combat is done he will be standing alone and hit on standard Ballistic Skill.



Stormxlr said:


> Ye that's what those Deathwing knights are for just drop in with Belial pop smite mode on my initiative step and its hammer time if I'm lucky and out of 9 knights no one died then he will get 18 str 10 ap 1 melee concussive attacks :3 the thing is he might be able to wipe Belial with knights before I can hit him coz he has the item that makes all area within 12 " difficult terrain or dangerous for deep striking.


The ability that makes all terrain difficult and dangerous only activates _after_ he's killed a Character beforehand. You can hit a Daemon Prince with that many Smite attacks, but honestly, two Knights can easily take a Daemon Prince at their Initiative step. Wiping 9 Knights and Belial is extraordinarily difficult - I'd like to know how your opponent can kill 10 T5, 2+/3++ models in a turn. I think that 5 Knights is more than enough to deal with a Prince - he hits first with an average of 8 attacks, which kills slightly under 1 Knight. They declare Smite, and unless you get extraordinarily bad rolls, 6 Str10 AP1 attacks net 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, and that equates to far more than the 1 wound you need to kill him.

Midnight


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> The ability that makes all terrain difficult and dangerous only activates _after_ he's killed a Character beforehand. You can hit a Daemon Prince with that many Smite attacks, but honestly, two Knights can easily take a Daemon Prince at their Initiative step. Wiping 9 Knights and Belial is extraordinarily difficult - I'd like to know how your opponent can kill 10 T5, 2+/3++ models in a turn. I think that 5 Knights is more than enough to deal with a Prince - he hits first with an average of 8 attacks, which kills slightly under 1 Knight. They declare Smite, and unless you get extraordinarily bad rolls, 6 Str10 AP1 attacks net 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, and that equates to far more than the 1 wound you need to kill him.


^This

Knights are brutal when they smite against normal guys, because its chaos, if the knights do somehow fail to kill the prince they become AP3 against chaos anyway so will finish him off next turn.

You also mention a mace that explodes, would you care to explain this as I don't think there is such a weapon?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> You also mention a mace that explodes, would you care to explain this as I don't think there is such a weapon?


Black Mace - when you wound/kill somebody, they take a Toughness test at the end of combat. If they fail it, they get instakilled and everyone within 3" does the same thing.

Midnight


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Stormxlr said:


> @neferhet so aegis line with quad gun is a must this days huh...


The only must is "must have a plan for things that fly". For some armies, that's limited to the quad-gun. However, anything with Skyfire will do. For Dark Angels, I think that's mostly Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles. You can also use a Nephilim Jetfighter to gain air superiority.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> The only must is "must have a plan for things that fly". For some armies, that's limited to the quad-gun. However, anything with Skyfire will do. For Dark Angels, I think that's mostly Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles. You can also use a Nephilim Jetfighter to gain air superiority.


Neither of which are vaguely viable options in reality. Best air defense you can get is an allied Stormraven - I'm very much taken with bringing my primary detachment of Deathwing, Ravenwing, and amy generic stuff like Dreadnoughts or Devastators, then bringing Space Marine allies for Tactical Squads and a Stormraven, purely because their Tacticals are so much better.

Midnight


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Given that the problem is a single DP in this case, I'd argue that a Devastator squad with Flakk missiles will work just fine, and it's cheaper than a quad-gun too.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Unfortunately the trick is to ground him before you can reliably kill him. He only takes one test per unit shooting at him, so given the quad gun and Flakks are only AP4 with 4 shots they're going to struggle to penetrate his 3+ armour, and if you only have 1 Skyfire unit then he's got a 66% chance to stay in the air, even if he suffers wounds from them.

I've found the best way to deal with FMCs is to either ignore them, and accept that they're going to trash 1-2 things (if you deploy and move correctly then those things tend to be non-critical) or to use multiple units to force grounding tests to take them out of the sky. Often they'll fly over, drop and assault something, wipe it out, and then get shot to pieces before they can take off again.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

If you're using Vanilla marines, you could always ally in some Broadsides. Twin Linked S8 AP1 could ruin a DP's day.

With Dark Angels, there's always the Aegis with an Icarus? Never hurts to have a high powered lascannon laying around.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Take a Can of Fruit Juice and put it all over him. The Gods of Warhammer decree the death of the deamon 

In all seriousness though I use vehicles and gun emplacements to pound it until it's dead. Otherwise Melta's and Plasma will do.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Given that the problem is a single DP in this case, I'd argue that a Devastator squad with Flakk missiles will work just fine, and it's cheaper than a quad-gun too.


Devastators with Flakk are 170pts, Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun is 100pts.

I think that if you, for some reason, don't want Allies, then you should scatter your Flak Missiles to force more Grounding checks. A couple of 5-man Tacticals with Flak Missiles are 90pts each, can Score, and offer a natty little objective holding/harrassment unit. 

Midnight


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Black Mace - when you wound/kill somebody, they take a Toughness test at the end of combat. If they fail it, they get instakilled and everyone within 3" does the same thing.
> 
> Midnight


Not quite. For every unsaved wound the Mace inflicts, the model wounded must take a Toughness test or die. Additionally, in an assault phase in which you inflict an unsaved wound, at the end of that phase then every enemy model within 3" of the bearer must take a Toughness test or take a wound (no saves allowed).


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I agree I find flakk missiles horribly overpriced. Even if they hit it's only a str7 hit, and against the most common fliers this is usually against AV12. Not a great chance to even glance. Against a Daemon Prince yes, you will have a lower dice roll to wound, but then this is negated by his 3+ save. So we are back to square one. 

I am actually finding I am not considering fliers very much at all now when building lists. 
Nobody I know spams them, and even if they do the reality is no amount of anti-air is really going to help that much. 
I'd be inclined to ignore the Daemon Prince like with Fliers, as Sethis pointed out. It'll land, assualt and rape one of your squads, but then you can open fire and chances are those high strength weapons low ap weapons will be able to kill it.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm still confused how he's wiping out 9 knights and belial, considering they're t5 (cursed rule will be less useful against them) and a 3++ to tank his ap2 attacks. As a csm and CD player that uses princes extensively, a knight squad is something I actively avoid for that exact reason.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

@Ravner298 Actually it was a mix of bad luck rolling bunch of 1s and playing a single rule wrong (the relic which makes terrain dangerous). So this is how it happened. I DW Assault with Belial and 9knights+ Knight master, I rolled 3 ones so 3 knights died. Do my shoting with Belial, then charge and get into combat,he saved all HoW hits that landed. He rolled for his demonic weapon and got +6 extra attacks (my Knight Master denied the challange) so total of 12 and wiped 4 knights with 1 wound on Belial. I pop my smite mode and hit him causing 2 wounds. So 7 knights died, next on his turn he deep striked his Terminators and together with the Prince wiped the rest of my knights and Belial

Side note though Belila is imho best melee hq for DA. Once I manage to wipe out 2 squads of cultists, 3 Obliterators, 5 terminators, 1 Hellbrute with just Belial and 5 Knights


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Hmmm I think you may want to look more closely at rules like shooting into combat, charging after deep striking, ending combat and not being able to charge with a consolidation, and the flying monsterous creature rules. 

You may find you've been playing not as intended, to your disadvantage.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

You can't assault after deep striking. HoW are auto hits, I believe. And you should almost always accept the challenge on your knight master. It will mitigate his charge bonus (and in this circumstance his 6 bonus attacks) buying time for a more favorable round. Losing 3 knights to a dangerous terrain is painful. If you were in terrain after the drop (which you took dangerous terrain tests so you should of been) the prince assaulting you would be going last at i1, because he has no assault grenades. Baiting him into terrain is a sure fire way to kill him before he attacks. 

Beyond that, he's only t5. If there's one thing dark angels do well, it's the ability to put down a withering amount of bolter fire.


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## Duskan (Oct 25, 2012)

If you did 2 wounds to him in smite mode...how is he alive? str 10 vs toughness 5?

i run a nurgle daemon prince with my daemons army with a balesword and another defencive reward. I fully expect him to be grounded and taken out turn 1 or 2, as if he isnt he will rape you entire army as he jumps from combat to combat (record being 2 hammer heads and three riptides in 3 turns!)

Just ground him and shoot everything at him. DPs are one of the weaker FMC around. and since he is CSm you should be hitting him with ease. Try black knights for the plasma talons and then str 5 rending in cc if ur knights (for some reason) arent enough.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I've used daemon princes a bit. Usually I'll manage to assault/wipe a squad, then get put down by a lascannon the next turn. Have been grounded a few times by small arms fire, that sucked. Leaves him open to a charge or gunfire.

Have only faced a prince once. He landed to assault a predator, then got rapid fired by plasma and bolters to death in very short order.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

The fragility of Daemon Princes is their achilles heel. Any S10 can double tap them out (unless they pay an obscene amount of points for a coin flip at getting the Biomancy Iron Arm power), and really, how hard is it to inflict 4 wounds to power-armored T5?

Ground them (preferably with AA weapons so you have a good chance to hit, then scraps like rhino storm bolters if need be, then by any units you've cast Prescience on or that have twin-linked weapons) by whatever means necessary, and then dakka or Vindi pie-plate them to death. Maybe yeah, they'll kill an enemy unit. If that's the sacrifice you need to make to kill their unit, so be it.


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