# Why is Draigo's fluff so frowned upon?



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

'Don't be so sensitive. It's an attack on the silliest piece of fanfic ever to get through to a codex in my almost 25 years in the hobby. I'd be laughing at it if appeared in our home brew fluff section, and assume an over enthusiastic 12 year old wrote it.' - a member, on Draigo vs. Mortarion.

Why does everyone get so butthurt over Draigo's fluff? Why is it so preposterously stupid that a guy who has trained for hundreds of years to be good at killing and maiming Daemons and is the best Daemon-hunter in a chapter of an unspecified number (but very likely over a thousand) of the finest Daemon-hunters that humanity has to offer?

I think that the Draigo vs Mortarion fluff is pretty cool, to be honest, in the way I find all of the archaic Grey Knights-fighting-without-actually-fighting fluff cool. You can read it as Draigo using all the hatred for the Daemon, added to his anger over the death of Geronitan, to power up a psychic attack to banish Mortarion and it had the side effect of projecting this psychic power as a carving wave of energy that scarred the name Geronitan into Mortarion's heart, perhaps even as a psychic signature? (Note: this is a terrible explanation, so a visual cue for anyone who's played Skyrim - you know where the Greybeards teach you Unrelenting Force, and use their Thu'um to carve the words into the ground? That's how I imagine Draigo's attack on Mortarion).

Draigo's fluff is incredibly vague, so if you want to read it as Draigo is Matt Ward in 40k, that's fine and you can do that, but if you want to read him as a 9ft Dragonborn version of John Constantine as portrayed by Keanu Reeves, that's perfectly valid too.

I just don't get why so many people say the fluff is terrible. It has the _potential_ to be terrible, yeah, but no more so than it has the potential to be kind of awesome.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I think it is less him beating the one demon and more him then spending eternity stomping demons while trapped in demonville.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I generally agree with you. It certainly isn't as illogical or unbelievable as people like to make out.


----------



## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

The cartoons about him on YouTube are pretty hilarious.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I've never had an issue with his fluff either. Draigo is noted as being rather powerful, he is a superhuman warrior trained and conditioned to fight daemons, given some of the best anti daemon weapons and equipment available to mankind, and fought daemon Mortarion in real-space, where daemons are inherently weaker.

But then again there are still people who consider Ward to be the one and only person capable of ruining the fluff; so it should be no wonder people blindly hate the likes of Draigo.


----------



## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

*isnt there a new audio due out called mortarions heart**, could add some nice insight into the situation, me personally have no problem with the fluff i like it and look forward to hearing this version of the events that happened.*


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I also personally don't have an issue with that piece fluff. I think it's more a case of Ward hate making people biased towards any fluff he writes. The bit about Draigo and Mortarion is extremely vague, so we have no idea how it really went down.

I am willing to bet that if Hyperion breaking Angron's blade during the 1st War of Armageddon hadn't been described in such great detail by ADB in _The Emperor's Gift_, but instead had Matt Ward put a single line in the codex, while describing the events, like "And the Grey Knight Hyperion used his psychic might o shatter the Black Blade of Angron" or something along those lines, people would have complained about that too.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

scscofield said:


> I think it is less him beating the one demon and more him then spending eternity stomping demons while trapped in demonville.


Yeah, but he's not stomping Daemons, really. He's a minor inconvenience to them, and the Gods are allowing it because it's an amusing distraction from the Great Game. They really don't care that Draigo burns down Nurgle's garden - it's not made of anything, so Nurgle can just conjure it back up again instantly. It's probably more effort to stop Draigo than it is to 'repair' the 'damage' he does. He can shatter Tzeentch's fortress or kill all the Daemons that have ever and will ever exist and it comes to precisely naught.

I think that's pretty dang cool.


----------



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

And now to break the trend of people who don't mind Draigo's fluff. C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

I posted an answer to this question in another thread, but the reason for the hatred towards Draigo, and by extension Matt Ward, is due to four overlapping grievances against Ward and his fluff: flat characters, shattering of willing suspension of disbelief, violation of previously-established fluff, and attitude.



Protoss119 said:


> Yes, Draigo is a Grey Knight, and an accomplished one at that. That does not change the odds against which he would face against such powerful entities as Mortarion, or the daemonic entities within the realms of the Gods, or surviving the Warp in the first place where other mortals simply cannot survive. What's more, nothing has been presented that could alter the odds of survival; many have provided explanations, but Matt Ward embraces none of them.
> 
> It took 109 Grey Knights to tackle Angron and his Bloodthirster bodyguard in the First War of Armageddon, and only 13 survived. As for Draigo vs. Mortarion?
> 
> ...


Like I said, readers' problems with Matt Ward are overlapping. Because of Matt Ward's perceived attitude, a lot of readers assume that he's shilling his self-insert Mary Sues at the expense of the established fluff, and because of Matt Ward's history of writing up such overpowered characters, readers assume that he must enjoy doing so. It's a vicious cycle that has all but guaranteed their continued ire towards him.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Ever heard the term "Mary Sue"? 

It's a term generally used to refer to a character who is so perfect in pretty much every way; so much so that they're boring, if you haven't heard of it before.

Simply put, he's stupid. He's a non-primarch that's stronger than a primarch, has no personality (seriously, his entire entry is about how much ass he kicks everywhere all the time), and....well there's just not much to him other than "lol I spend all day fucking up the dark god's shit".

He's flawless, simply put. And as a character in a fictional world, it makes him incredibly dull and stupid.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think it's how Matt Ward has worded it. It's explained by anger. I mean Ragnar Blackmane did something very similar, but then again he wielded a legendary mythological spear. The Spear of Russ. Or Gugne if you wish. 

Kaldor Draigo slew the even more experienced bodyguard of Mortation just by being angry, and then his super-anger led to him subdoing a Demon-Primarch and tattoo his heart with the name of his precursor.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

No lone marine, no matter how old or well trained, under any circumstances would be a match for any primarch, let alone a ten thousand year old primarch that has ascended to demonhood. 

It's just another symptom of GWs efforts to target the teen market by writing stuff that seems ridiculous even in the setting of the 41st millennium.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I think it's how Matt Ward has worded it. It's explained by anger. I mean Ragnar Blackmane did something very similar, but then again he wielded a legendary mythological spear. The Spear of Russ. Or Gugne if you wish.
> 
> Kaldor Draigo slew the even more experienced bodyguard of Mortation just by being angry, and then his super-anger led to him subdoing a Demon-Primarch and tattoo his heart with the name of his precursor.


And how does this make any sense, it took over hundred grey knights, with space wolf support to banish angron.

Even then less than ten knights survived. We are supposed to believe that a being that killed a grand master was bested by a single knightÉ


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I just said it's the reasoning he uses that makes it bad. Anger, he did the same in the Space Marines-codex where the Ultramarines was out-everything by the Alpha Legion and they ended up beating them because they got angry. So in the head of Matt Ward anger is a perfectly good way of justifying CMOAs.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Alsojames said:


> Ever heard the term "Mary Sue"?
> 
> It's a term generally used to refer to a character who is so perfect in pretty much every way; so much so that they're boring, if you haven't heard of it before.
> 
> ...


Fact is we know nothing about Draigo in terms of personality or drive. This entire debacle really only centres around barely two lines of fluff with zero expansion. Every grey knight is trained to banish daemons and they are all given the best equipment for the task. 

How many grey knights had Mortarion been forced to fight before the grandmaster and subsequently Draigo? We have no idea how drained he already was at this stage. Remember, a daemon has its energy drained simply by being in the materium and even more so when facing an army of soldiers armed with faith and anti daemon weapons and gear. 

Saying Draigo is flawless is an assumption. Fact is we know nothing about him, we only have vague accounts of his deeds. 


To cite another example, the SM codex hails Sicarius as a hero and fantastic leader, but when you read of him in any ultramarines novel it becomes apparent that he's an arrogant twat. We have nothing on Draigo, he could be the same or he could be the complete opposite. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> No lone marine, no matter how old or well trained, under any circumstances would be a match for any primarch, let alone a ten thousand year old primarch that has ascended to demonhood.
> 
> It's just another symptom of GWs efforts to target the teen market by writing stuff that seems ridiculous even in the setting of the 41st millennium.


Primarchs have been beaten by non primarchs elsewhere in the fluff. Being a daemon only adds vulnerability to them, and you want to state that an astartes equipped and trained to fight daemons couldn't defeat an already drained daemon prince? Based on what? Fact is we know nearly nothing about the lead up to this fight or how it even went down. We have TWO lines of fluff to go on for this, and I don't think it's enough for us to just make blanket assumptions either way. 


So in essence, until we have a more descriptive account of how this all actually happened, I'm going to rely on everything else I know about grey knights and daemons respectively and leave it simply as; _It is plausible. _


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> It is plausible.


We'll have to agree to disagree so. There's plausible, implausible, and downright stupid. I believe this particular piece of fanfic falls into the last category. Others are free to think otherwise of course.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree so. There's plausible, implausible, and downright stupid. I believe this particular piece of fanfic falls into the last category. Others are free to think otherwise of course.


Consistently referring to this as fanfic is a good way to skew what little information we have. Are you implying that no other writer has ever gotten carried away with his fluff and written something farfetched? 

It's no different to Wazdakka taking down a Battle Titan on his own.
Marneus Calgar defeating an Avatar of a war god. 
Uriel Ventris cowing a shard of the Nightbringer. 
A lone eldar pirate defeating a Tyranid super creature. 
A lone tyranid obliterating an entire craftworld. 


The Grey Knights banished Angron, the Space Wolves defeated Magnus, both daemon primarchs. 

Yet you don't think the Grey Knights could have defeated Mortarion? And bear in mind Mortarion wasn't even actually defeated, the fluff on the timeline states that he managed to escape. So it isn't that Draigo's rage fixed everything, if anything he let the bad guy get away because he was too fixated on being clever to just stab the heart instead of tagging it.


----------



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Regarding Mortarion, I don't have a problem with Draigo beating him because, as has been said before, we don't know what else happened. You could as well write that Taremar Aurellian defeated Angron, but without the context that there were 100+ other Grey Knights around him it would sound nuts/ridiculous. Same thing here. It might be Matt Ward having a raging boner over Draigo, or it might be reasonable if we had more context.

*However*, I still had Draigo's fluff for one simple reason; he survives in the warp for no reason than because he can. What bugs me is that he has no right to be there in the first place. The ships of the Imperium have Gellar fields because the laws of physics and time are entirely arbitrary in the warp. By all rights, Draigo should be spaghettified, reduced to ashen bones and then a child the size of a sperm whale because his body is being torn apart and made into the play things of nonsensical and constantly changing laws of time and space, both of which lose meaning in the warp anyway. If one dude can survive, why can't the ships of the Imperium just go into the warp, shoot them like conventional foes and come out the other side. The warp is painted as this place where, if the Gellar fields do fail, you're fucked, and that's what annoys me; the fact that it make the actual threat levels of being stranded in the warp horribly inconsistent. 

Plus, I appreciate that the Gods are like "oh, let's corrupt this Grey Knight because we've never done that before" but they seem quite content to stab every other human/Astartes/miscellaneous other, what makes Draigo so damn special? It seems odd to me that the Gods collectively are so interested in this one dude wandering around their realms and breaking shit when they are always depicted as basically being capricious kids with ADD who are liable to lose interest in their followers while their committing mass genocide in their name. Why don't they just go "Ok Draigo this was fun for a while, but you keep breaking things and generally being a nascence so I'm afraid this has come to an end" and swamp him with 5 million Nurglings. Again, it's the way that Draigo's fluff makes *everything else* inconsistent that bothers me.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> he survives in the warp for no reason than because he can. What bugs me is that he has no right to be there in the first place. The ships of the Imperium have Gellar fields because the laws of physics and time are entirely arbitrary in the warp. By all rights, Draigo should be spaghettified, reduced to ashen bones and then a child the size of a sperm whale because his body is being torn apart and made into the play things of nonsensical and constantly changing laws of time and space, both of which lose meaning in the warp anyway


He survives because it is a curse, not some attempt to kill him that didn't work. He is punished constantly by being forced to fight and have his every victory rendered utterly meaningless. He is a plaything, not some lone ranger hero figure.


----------



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> He survives because it is a curse, not some attempt to kill him that didn't work. He is punished constantly by being forced to fight and have his every victory rendered utterly meaningless. He is a plaything, not some lone ranger hero figure.


I can kind of understand what your saying, but I'm certain I said why I find this a problem in the last part of my post; it doesn't fit with the character(s) of the God(s). Their followers kill one another, commit genocide, burn planets in the name of their God(s) and get little more than a non-committal shrug and a weak "eh" as if to say "And what?" before the Gods get back to their eternally long chess game. Draigo, who just basically shows up in their living rooms, skins their cat and breaks their furniture, is apparently infinitely more interesting? Again, it's inconsistent. 

You could argue that they want to corrupt a Grey Knight just to prove they can, but again what makes Draigo so damn special? Why didn't they think to do this with some other Grand Master? Plus, Draigo keeps doing the same things over and over again so whilst you could argue that he was a fleeting source of amusement for the Chaos God(s), if all his action are boring and repetitive why don't the Gods get bored with him like they do 99.999999999...% of all other mortals? Draigo's hardly unique. He's just a bit tasty in a fight and was the only one around for M'kar to chuck into the warp rift.

The idea of a curse that shows Draigo that everything that he and his brother Grey Knights do is for naught is interesting from a reader's perspective, but when you read about Justicar Thawn and his immortality which causes him to come to *precisely the same realization*, then the once interesting point of Draigo's story becomes less effective because someone else is having the same thought/realization and their back story doesn't have to ignore large portions of established lore/character traits to do so.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Yet you don't think the Grey Knights could have defeated Mortarion?


We know a band of GKs can defeat them, we've seen what a hundred of them can do to Angron and his bodyguard of blood thirsters, but carving his name in Mort's heart? Seriously? Did he put his full name on there, or just his initials, or did he go the whole hog and put his title and middle name on there as well? If he'd just banished him, or chopped his head off, or dismembered him, maybe it'd be more believable, but the whole carving thing just pushed it into the realm of the ridiculous. Someone just pushed it too far.

I can see it now. "Draigo wuz 'ere, 901.M41."


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

It was the name of the precursor not his own. That would be selfish. I sort of wonder hos that happen I mean the blood and guts would make it difficult to do a normal beating heart. Then comes the puss and disgusting stuff and he carved in Geronitan (the name of the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey knights before him). Then again except for a few questions about maintenance and re-stocking ammo I'm not against him surviving in the warp. He is a Space Marine after all.


----------



## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> We know a band of GKs can defeat them, we've seen what a hundred of them can do to Angron and his bodyguard of blood thirsters, but carving his name in Mort's heart? Seriously? Did he put his full name on there, or just his initials, or did he go the whole hog and put his title and middle name on there as well? If he'd just banished him, or chopped his head off, or dismembered him, maybe it'd be more believable, but the whole carving thing just pushed it into the realm of the ridiculous. Someone just pushed it too far.
> 
> I can see it now. "Draigo wuz 'ere, 901.M41."


I'm with you on this. I'm fine with Draigo's fluff, all except for the heart carving. It's an entirely nonsensical thing to do and comes across as an apocryphal story you might hear from that kid in your school who constantly made shit up.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm gonna wade into this. The reason for the resistance to this bullshit is that we didn't get into this to have a "Superman" character. They established the Primarchs to be the next step down in divinity to the Emperor. We saw that even Lorgar, considered before Chaos to be the weakest martially, wade through sm's with ease. So tell me. You have Angron right? Who launches a campaign into the Imperium. To break his SWORD renders a GK unconcious. To actually banish him, BANISH HIM, costs the GK captain his life. So you're telling me that Mortarion would be single handedly not only subdued but maimed and humiliated by a lone GK? 

The level of power they've given to Draigo is ridiculous. His exploits in the warp don't really matter to me as I think they are trying to show him how pointless his existence is and they've got literally eternity to wait for him to break. The Mortarion business just seems a little ridiculous. Like a story about Robin beating the shit out of Superman.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Don't have a huge issue with Drago (don't care, spelling it this way). Yeah, I personally feel that his story smacks of poor self-editing, but over all he isn't that bad. 

That being said….


Serpion5 said:


> Space Wolves defeated Magnus, both daemon primarchs.


Yes. Space Wolve*S*. Plural, as in a many of them, and large number of them ended up either dead or really fucked up. With Drago (don't care), we've got one dude pulling off what it took a Great Wolf (it was a Great Wolf, right?), a previous Great Wolf in a giant metal death machine, and a load of their buddies to do. And, again, most of them ended up very dead. Also, it should be noted that the Great Wolf, Ironhelm, landed a drop pod on the cyclopean douche before fighting him, and even then he still died. Drago, however, just up and carved his initials into a primarchs heart because he got angry. One reads as an epic battle to beat a truly imposing enemy, and the other some form of bastard child produced by poor editing and a nerd-boner induced typing frenzy.

Though I haven't popped open either of these books up in almost a year, so I could be wrong about damn near all of this.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Firstly, whole bunch of people saying that 'The fact he could do it because he hulked out is stoopid' - well, that really is fanfiction. I said in the first post, my interpretation was that the name-carving was done through a psychic attack (maybe even fuelled by other Grey Knights who weren't credited?). I'll bring it up again because I really liked the analogy - like the Greybeards carve the words of Unrelenting Force into the stone with their Shouts (sorry to anyone who gets the reference, but it works pretty nicely).

Secondly, doesn't say Draigo killed Mortarion's bodyguard. If a rugby team smashes through the enemy line, does that mean they killed them and banished them to the Warp?

Thirdly, none of us are in any position to say what a Chaos God would or would not think or do. They're not even vaguely human, following anything but human thought processes.

Lastly, of course the stories are apocryphal. All 40k fluff in the codexes is apocryphal and told from that race's perspective. For example, read the fluff section on the Battle for Cold Steel Ridge in the 5th ed Space Marine and Tyranid codexes. You will not get the same picture of the fight at all.


----------



## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I just want to point out, that he is rules wise, perhaps the sacryest thing around in CC when fighting Daemons, so it does kinda make sense his fluff is a bit OT when dealing with them. 

It could always be allot worse.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

How could it be worse? A normal, though powerful Space Marine curbstomped a living demigod and his guards to boot alone and unaided. That's a pretty telling tale about power to the max. Was he naked when it happened? That could be worse I guess. Luckily nothing is known there.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I said in the first post, my interpretation was that the name-carving was done through a psychic attack


This sounds like a sensible solution. A psychic imprint rather than slowly and steadily carving a name with a gargantuan Nemesis Weapon whilst Mortarion remained perfectly still. :wink:



Deus Mortis said:


> but again what makes Draigo so damn special?


He is the Grand Master of the Grey Knights. If the Grand Master can be corrupted then the symbolic victory would be monumental.


----------



## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> How could it be worse? A normal, though powerful Space Marine curbstomped a living demigod and his guards to boot alone and unaided. That's a pretty telling tale about power to the max. Was he naked when it happened? That could be worse I guess. Luckily nothing is known there.


Where does he say he did it alone? Or that the battle wasn't close? 

He is not a normal Space Marine, He is perhaps the most specialized Damon killing thing in the Imperium. He did not kill the demigod, he banished a Daemon prince into the warp.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Uveron said:


> He is not a normal Space Marine, He is perhaps the most specialized Damon killing thing in the Imperium. He did not kill the demigod, he banished a Daemon prince into the warp.


Actually, the timeline says that Mortarion escaped, so he didn't successfully banish him.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

There's a theory that "draigo" as we know him is really just something the Chaos Gods whipped up to fuck with us, and that one day they'll pull the rug out from under us and laugh manically as our hope is eradicated. Which honestly makes perfect sense.

How can a non-primarch, hell even a primarch himself, go on such a rampage throughout a realm that is literally owned and governed by the beasts he opposes? If Tzeench wants to make it so gravity changes every half second, he can. If Nurgle wants it to rain acid and have the wind be caused by giant, man-tearing shards of bone, he can. If Khorne wants his rivers of blood to boil like lava, he can make it happen.

So why and how can one single Astartes, even if it is a Grey Knight, roflstomp around for centuries unabated? Why is he so special? Why is he able to smash Tzeench's city and torch Nurgle's garden? REPEDITALLY? ALONE?

We're literally not given any explanation other than _because he's Kaldor motherfucking Draigo, the bestest of the bestest _. He can perform feats of superhuman strength even Sanguinius struggled to do (he beat down a single bloodthirster--not demon primarch, ORDINARY BLOODTHIRSTER--and that was supposed to be an epic feat) like it's nobody's business and we're just supposed to bend over and believe that? By 40k's own standards, it's unrealistic.



I subscribe to the aformentioned theory; that Draigo as we know him is long dead, and what we've got in the GK 'dex is really just a creation of Chaos and they're laughing about how much we think he helps us.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Alsojames said:


> How can a non-primarch, hell even a primarch himself, go on such a rampage throughout a realm that is literally owned and governed by the beasts he opposes? If Tzeench wants to make it so gravity changes every half second, he can. If Nurgle wants it to rain acid and have the wind be caused by giant, man-tearing shards of bone, he can. If Khorne wants his rivers of blood to boil like lava, he can make it happen.
> 
> So why and how can one single Astartes, even if it is a Grey Knight, roflstomp around for centuries unabated? Why is he so special? Why is he able to smash Tzeench's city and torch Nurgle's garden? REPEDITALLY? ALONE?


Perhaps the Chaos Gods intentionally allow him to endure because they intend to corrupt him? After all, he is incapable of damaging them.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

To me it's quite clear one of the pantheon or all of them are allowing him to exist in their realm for their amusement and nothing else. 

Just like had Khorne allowed a band of Orks into his domain to fight his subjects for all eternity.


----------



## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

The main reason i dislike the draigo fluff is this.

The entire grey knights codex is rife with bad fluff and horrible consistency errors, but more than that and what makes draigo second worst to me (after crowe) is this.

"This here is Kaldor Draigo, he's the SUPREME grandmaster of the grey knights, since having a council of grandmasters to decide important matters like there was before is stupid.

And Draigo, he's really good, he is even the bestest. And he fights deamons the best.
When he fights deamons, he's really angry. That is why he is powerful, since no one is as angry as he is.

Draigo is so badass, when he got stuck in the warpz, he fights all the chaos gods. AND WINS!!! Since he is the bestest and the coolest, and he looks real cool when he does it to.

Once he killed a bloodthirster, because his sword was broken, and bloodthirsters have deamon weapons from deamon metals, so they are inherently evil. But Draigo fixed it with his mind powers.

And then he kept fighting chaos gods forever, since he is awesome, and really cool!!!1!111! Lol i luv Draigo "

And that's basically the level of quality things are decribed, and i have barely parodised much of it. The description quality barely goes above he is Draigo, and now he did this cool thing!

That doesn't do it for me.
It was considered a really imposing and grand thing to do when Sanguinius held the gate of the imperial palace alone against a frikkin blood thirster. And an army of chaos space marines of course, but i guess they did the classic look upon the fighting champions move and just cheered or something.

But that was a huge epic fight, when Draigo is described fighting it is not even on the same scale.
Draigo is a grand master. Probably comparable and perhaps better than custodians.
The most badass warriors at the imperiums disposal.

And those are beneath the primarchs, in normal form.
The primarchs are even more powerful in deamon form, gifted with monstrous abilities and powers even other primarchs would have problems to fight.

And Draigo just went up to him and blasted Mortarion so Mortarion ran away?
That's not the Mortarion i've read about in the horus heresy series.

There Mortarion is the primarch of the death guard, space marines who find the concept of fear and running away ludicrous and their standard tactic for combat was to march right into the enemy?
And Mortarion is the embodiment of this?

Sure a grey knight has an edge over a deamonic primarch, but it is still a frikkin primarch!

Only way i can imagine Draigo in a fight against deamon Mortarion is this.

"Draigo and ten grey knight terminators approached the Monstrous deamon primarch, the apparition of the once loved son of the emperor was that of death itself, clad in a billowing dark robe and armed with a scythe.

Gas danced like green mist with his every move, and as the grey knights stepped closer, Draigo breathed it in and died.......

...... since he didn't wear a helmet.

'-Well that was awkward....' one of his battle brothers say while the entire squad watches their grand master wriggle to death under horrendous hardships.

Then there is a grand but in the end tragic fight that ends with every terminator dead and Mortarion still standing, wounded but hardly beaten."

Mayhaps i did it a bit silly there but no way he can take down mortarion on his own.
And sure, perhaps Mortarion was wounded or "drained" as is so nicely refered to.
So what? If mortarion is so drained he would dissipate from this reality from such a powerful psychic attack that must've been.

And inscribing names on Mortarions heart?

"-Lulwut, i really like my grandmaster, he's so cool. I luv Gerington!" (Or whatever he's called, it's not a very cool name.)

So why is Draigo's fluff so frowned upon?
The answer is simple, it is not better than a ten year olds twilight fanfic, it just happens to be in 40k. And feature what once was the coolest space marine chapter of them all now turned to silver ultramarines fighting the evil deamons in space. They even basically have an 80's phone ringing describing where thay have to go to save the poor imperial citizens to be heroes forever.

Sure Matt Ward is probably not the devil as i used to think and many still think him as. But he sure sucks at writing fluff.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

"Draigo is so badass, when he got stuck in the warpz, he fights all the chaos gods. AND WINS!!! Since he is the bestest and the coolest, and he looks real cool when he does it to."

Reread the fluff.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Considering the fact that it took over 100 grey knights where only a few survived and the entire space wolf chapter plus IG as a distraction to banish angron it doesn't make sense.

Also combine that that out of the knights who survived, one nearly died from psychic exertion, one lost his legs and another was in a coma it makes no sense.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Point to note. Ka'Bandha wasn't 'just a bloodthirster' or a regular run of the mill Greater Demon.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Klomster said:


> and i have barely parodised much of it.


Bullshit. Yours is the most blown out of proportion take on Draigo's fluff I've seen here yet.


----------



## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

Alsojames said:


> Ever heard the term "Mary Sue"?
> 
> It's a term generally used to refer to a character who is so perfect in pretty much every way; so much so that they're boring, if you haven't heard of it before.
> 
> ...


Yep you nailed it. He is a Mary Sue and also his appearance from the warp is incredibly. It is also just...bad writing! In a way I agree with whoever compared it to the ADB grey knight book. ADB is a skilled writer, one of the best in the BL stable by a mile. I am sure if set the task he could make Draigo relatable and compelling, but the fluff seems to be so one dimensional it is painful. Uber-heroes need flaws, for explanation see.... every single primarch. Draigo sorts of appears to be the flawless hero, romping through the place that kills literally every other character in the fluff with gay abandon, power-smashing any demon that comes hsi way and occasionally popping back into realspace for a tabletop game. I think in a tongue in cheek setting, draigo could be great! But it lacks the flesh we;ve come to expect with the modern fluff and with the better writing from BL. 

Ward just comes across as a bad writer, more like some of the earlier BL stuff that read like fanfiction. 

Here is an idea, let someone from GW design the game rules, but then get the codex and fluff written by a BL author. It 'aint exactly earth shattering but it would make sense. Grek Knights 6th ed by Ward and Dembki-Boden, that would be pretty good, or at least better.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Just listened to the audiobook Mortarions heart, Draigo does NOT best him via physical or even psychic means (i.e. Draigo does not overcome him through strength)


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lost&Damned said:


> Just listened to the audiobook Mortarions heart, Draigo does NOT best him via physical or even psychic means (i.e. Draigo does not overcome him through strength)


Please spoil us, I think a lot of us have waited to hear how that story would be handled.

Edit:
Found a spoiler bit on Warseer



Mortarion is defeated with his true name in a moment of distraction (He's on fire, which only happend because he gloated too much, as expected...)
Apparently, "Mortarion" is not the name given to him at birth by the emperor.
Morty talks a bit about Janus, confirming him to be one of Malcador's knights errant. Nothing groundbreaking here though, but the way he talked it seemed like it's a bit personal for him, so that could point to Garro himself.



My comment



Which is quite plausible, since Morty always had been named by the Warlord whom found him on Barbarus. Though it does open up the possibility of all the Primarchs having secret, true names given to them by the Emperor. And it could possibly be a strong compelling reason to why the fallen Daemon primarchs have not made that much of an appearance in the Materium. As the Grey Knights likely knows the true names of most of them.




Edit 2: 
Stumbled upon a very relevant blog post from L.J Goulding
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/lj-goulding-pours-his-heart-out.html


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Edit 2:
> Stumbled upon a very relevant blog post from L.J Goulding
> http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/lj-goulding-pours-his-heart-out.html


"And do you want to know where Draigo’s destiny is actually taking him in the future? My gods, you’re in for a treat…"

Please let it be dark... :spiteful:

Anyone care to post up some spoilers from the audio?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If it's anything other than grimdark, then I will hate him forever. The only thing restraining me from the full on Draigo bashing, is the hope that it ends awfully for him.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Please spoil us, I think a lot of us have waited to hear how that story would be handled.




Mortarion speaks about Janus and the grey knights having a "treacherous, heretical past", and yes, he is defeated by his "true name", however, no one actually knows it, they just possess it, it is recommended that the name be spread and given to all the grey knights, but the one master who knows it refuses, saying not even the supreme grandmaster knows it, but simply carries it.


feel free to ask questions, im sure ive left stuff out.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

How does one not know a name but carries it? Sounds like I'm asking a Yahoo! riddle.

And it's not explained or hinted as to why the GM refuses to share the name?


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> If it's anything other than grimdark, then I will hate him forever. The only thing restraining me from the full on Draigo bashing, is the hope that it ends awfully for him.


A grimdark possible ending for Draigo would be very good yes, but it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that his end will be bad. Like the 13th Black Crusade it should look as if the darker ending has a far greater chance of victory, but the good ending has just enough possibility to be feasible. The spark of hope in the dark.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

In regards to the Grey Knights carrying the true name of Mortarion without knowing it. Id speculate its somehow gleaned from their mysterious geneseed, that supposedly comes from the Emperor himself. Unconschious knowledge comming to the forefront of the mind as he faces one of the Emperor's fallen sons.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

His true name is Jeff , everyone knows that


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> A grimdark possible ending for Draigo would be very good yes, but it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that his end will be bad. Like the 13th Black Crusade it should look as if the darker ending has a far greater chance of victory, but the good ending has just enough possibility to be feasible. The spark of hope in the dark.
> 
> 
> LotN


Hmmmm, not for me. If it ends anything other than horribly for Draigo, then he will go down as the biggest Mary Sue in history, to the point where I would say the term 'Mary Sue' be turned to 'Kaldor Draigo'. Sure it will take some work to get those who know nothing about 40k to get the term going, but I'm fairly sure if you showed anyone his fluff that comes with a good ending as well they would readily agree.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmmm, not for me. If it ends anything other than horribly for Draigo, then he will go down as the biggest Mary Sue in history, to the point where I would say the term 'Mary Sue' be turned to 'Kaldor Draigo'. Sure it will take some work to get those who know nothing about 40k to get the term going, but I'm fairly sure if you showed anyone his fluff that comes with a good ending as well they would readily agree.


I wonder would having draigo entombed in a dreadnought, that get's buried under cadia be a fitting end?


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Anyone care to post up some spoilers from the audio?


Sure;




The audio starts with Draigo and Mortarion squaring off, and Mortarion criticising Draigo for identifying himself through names and titles which to the Daemon Primarch are less than worthless. He asks Draigo repeatedly "Who are you?" though what he is really asking is who Draigo thinks he is.

Audio then cuts to the battle with Draigo, who is the 6th Grand Master, fighting with his Paladins against the Daemon hordes. They do well and witness Geronitan move to fight Mortarion, as the entire Grey Knight strategy was based around, but Geronitan has removed his faceplate to meet Mortarion eye-to-eye in an honourable duel. Mortarion's response is to whip up a hurricane of plagued air that infects Geronitan and renders him unable to fight, a Librarian named Torvus saves Geronitan before Mortarion can cut off his head by teleporting him away but Mortarion's Manreaper still cuts Geronitan's throat, and infects him with Nurgle Rot.

Geronitan dies before anyone can do anything to help him, and Draigo calls a Conclave of the Grand Masters. Vorth Mordrak, Drystan Cromm, Vardan Kai, and the other Grand Masters all commune psychically across the galaxy, although five of them are actually at Kornovin, and they decide that a new Supreme Grand Master must be elected. Cromm, the 2nd Grand Master, reveals that the Grey Knight allowed Mortarion to ravage entire sectors in order to draw him to Kornovin where a prophecy claims that a champion will be able to kill Mortarion permanently. But that champion was Geronitan, who apparantely was groomed for that position since he was an aspirant, even his name was a carefully prepared psychic weapon to use specifically against Mortarion.

Without Geronitan the Knights are unsure what to do and decide that the new SGM must decide, stay and fight or retreat and fight another day. Both Kai and Mordrak nominate Cromm who declines, saying he must be the kingmaker. The 1st GM nominates himself and one of the GMs takes himself out of the running as he isn't physically present. Draigo realises that Cromm will never accept, Kai is too young and that the 1st GM and Mordrak will never allow the other one to ascend. He nominates himself and gives a good speech about why he is doing it, and the GM that remains on Titan seconds his nomination and then Cromm thirds it. Everyone agrees on Draigo but in order to become SGM he must swear the oath over the Titansword, which Geronitan dropped before Mortarion slit his throat.

Draigo, Cromm and Torvus return to Kornovin's surface and are able to find the Titansword just as Mortarion arrives. Cromm and Torvus leave to allow Draigo to fight him on his own but Cromm gives Draigo one final weapon. Mortarion's true name, the name the Emperor gave him at birth. The two square off and Draigo mentions Janus in his speech, to which Mortarion claims that he knew Janus and that he isn't surprised that the Grey Knights don't know who the original Grand Masters were before they became "Malcador's errant angels." He says that the truth about Janus would destroy the Grey Knights but chooses not to elaborate and fights Draigo.

Draigo puts up a good fight and kills several Deathshroud prior to actually fighting Mortarion but the Daemon Primarch overwhelms him. But in a moment of arrogance he gives Draigo an opening to unleash a psychic assault and set Mortarion on fire, and then deliver the true name into his very soul. The true name isn't a word, it's more locked away knowledge that actually hurt Draigo when he tried to look at it. He unleashes the knowledge into Mortarion who then explodes, leaving a charred and barely alive husk. The GK eradicate the remaining Daemons and Draigo carves Geronitan's name into Mortarion's heart so that when the time comes and "The one" that Mortarion does fear, the one who will kill him, arrives he will have another weapon at his disposal, the name of Geronitan will be able to hurt Mortarion.

The audio ends with Draigo destroying Mortarion's shell and sending him back to the Warp.


I also reviewed the audio if you care to read it;

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/02/black-library-review-mortarions-heart.html


LotN


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

To me it's quite clear now that Janus 

was Sevatar.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> To me it's quite clear now that Janus
> 
> was Sevatar.


I disagree.



It has to be garro.


There's a reason why the grey knights are shrouded in mystery, imagine how they would react learning their founders were mostly astartes from traitor legions.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> It has to be garro.
> 
> There's a reason why the grey knights are shrouded in mystery, imagine how they would react learning their founders were mostly astartes from traitor legions.





Lord of the Night said:


> He says that the truth about Janus would destroy the Grey Knights but chooses not to elaborate and fights Draigo.





Garro was a loyalist and the epitome of a noble 'knight.' So I don't see how him being Janus would 'destroy' the Grey Knights. Sevatar was traitor scum. One of the top brass of the traitors in fact.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

He's just kinda boring. The only interesting thing about him is his whole hopeless, unwinable, meaningless warp crusade. That's not anything about him as a character, it's just something that was done to him. It reflects more about M'kar's personality than it does Draigo's. I wouldn't be such an issue if draigo was a minor footnote character, but he's the 'head' special character of the codex.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The fluff from the audio goes a long way to making the story credible.


----------



## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I agree Serp ... and I am now much more forgivable about how it went down. Sadly the codex does not explain that he can not kill him, but it would be much better if it did.

I have often said 'What the fuck is that bullshit?!?! If he carved his name in his heart he should have just cut the fucker out.' Now I kinda get why things happen the way they did.


----------



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm glad that L.J. Goulding is working on Draigo as well, having read _Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan_, and I think he's introduced a lot of interesting threads regarding him both there and in _Mortarion's Heart_, but I still think he's got a long way to go before he fully redeems him.

The reason for my and others' dislike of Draigo, and by extension Ward, boils down to this: if I had to ask Ward himself to explain to me how all of Draigo's outrageous[-looking] achievements could have happened, given his prior behavior, how do you think he would respond? Personally, I wouldn't have much hope for anything resembling a satisfying answer, one that would increase the probability of his actions and his situation or otherwise help us _believe_ his story. While I understand that Ward's attitude is just to help sell GW's products and may or may not accurately reflect his own opinion on Draigo or anything else he has worked on, the damage is done.

That's why I feel it's so important that a self-admitted "Draigo denier" is working on Draigo's fluff - so that I can go to _him_ and ask him to explain everything, and so far, I feel he's explained Mortarion's defeat satisfactorily. Godspeed, you magnificent bastard!


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The fluff from the audio goes a long way to making the story credible.


I think that it does make the story credible.


And as to Janus I don't think that Sevatar was him, I think Sevatar was Khyron. I think Janus;




Is either Garro or Omegon. For Garro the reasons are obvious. For Omegon because he is a two-faced god, hence Janus is an appropriate name, it would explain why Mortarion hates Janus so much and described him as "A brother who would betray his own for some half-imagined redemption." Garro wouldn't need redemption because he never did anything traitorous, Omegon did. It would also explain why the GK would be horrified by it, Omegon was a Traitor Primarch and treachery is a crime that can never be forgiven according to the Imperium they've grown up in.



Also the audio had some interesting pronunciations. Draigo is pronounced Dray-go, and Janus is pronounced Yay-nus.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How were you pronouncing Draigo before? Never thought of any other way to say it, are you going with 'Dry-Go' or something?

Janus is odd, I've always pronounced it in the traditional way the name is said, 'Yah-Nus' with the 'Ya' pronounced like it is in 'Yak'


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Is either Garro or Omegon. For Garro the reasons are obvious. For Omegon because he is a two-faced god, hence Janus is an appropriate name, it would explain why Mortarion hates Janus so much and described him as "A brother who would betray his own for some half-imagined redemption." Garro wouldn't need redemption because he never did anything traitorous, Omegon did. It would also explain why the GK would be horrified by it, Omegon was a Traitor Primarch and treachery is a crime that can never be forgiven according to the Imperium they've grown up in.


It may just be gut-feeling, but I highly doubt...

Omegon
...was Janus. It certainly doesn't seem to be the way the plot is heading.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Wait, wait hold on! Where has it ever been stated Sevatar survived to become a GK-founder? Haven't ADb planned all along to kill him off so that the traitors had some major players dead as well? Also Omegon seems unlikely. A Primarch would be noticeable. 

But I think from the short summary that the story seems totally acceptable. That he 

carved the name into an already dead body pretty much.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Wait, wait hold on! Where has it ever been stated Sevatar survived to become a GK-founder? Haven't ADb planned all along to kill him off so that the traitors had some major players dead as well? Also Omegon seems unlikely. A Primarch would be noticeable.
> 
> But I think from the short summary that the story seems totally acceptable. That he
> 
> carved the name into an already dead body pretty much.


From the Emperor's Gift which is where the rumor about Sevatar first came into being:




The statue on the eighth plinth showed a warrior in the same armour of blood jade as his brothers, one boot lifted to rest on a sculpted boulder. He carried a nemesis halberd, the spearpoint thrust into the plinth itself, letting him lean upon it with casual indifference. Whatever features he possessed in life were hidden beneath his helm, which in turn was weathered to near smoothness by time’s touch.

_Khyron
Grand Master of the Eighth Brotherhood
‘Already, you exalt me for my triumphs,
When I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival.
It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.’_


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> From the Emperor's Gift which is where the rumor about Sevatar first came into being:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yet ADB publicly denounced that rumour.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> From the Emperor's Gift which is where the rumor about Sevatar first came into being:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yet ADB publicly denounced that rumour.


I totally missed that part! And I agree with CotE! ADB has said Sevatar is to die, so I assume that is still in play.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Even if ADB quashed that rumor he is yet just another author. Fluff is fluff pure and simple like it or dislike it as you might.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

If you're implying what I think you are, then I doubt another author would go behind another's back and rewrite/ignore fluff he's established.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm just saying that authors are just that. Authors. You can regard of disregard their writing as you see fit yet more deranged fans would of course blast you for it.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

the concept of dying is fuzzy (at best) in the 30-40K setting, 
it would feel a little too stretched to have Sevatar become a GK,
but recent fluff has "spoiled" us with less believable scenario's


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I'm just saying that authors are just that. Authors. You can regard of disregard their writing as you see fit yet more deranged fans would of course blast you for it.


To a certain degree but 'as you see fit' would render the enter IP nonexistent


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Even if ADB quashed that rumor he is yet just another author. Fluff is fluff pure and simple like it or dislike it as you might.


The difference is that Sevatar is AD-B's character. He's not a long established character that has been part of the background for years.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

And what's more the reference comes from _The Emperor's Gift_, a novel written by AD-B. So it's not like another author is 'hijacking' the character/plotline. I would have thought, having created both Sevetar and The Emperor's Gift AB-D would be in the best place to dispel rumours.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Page 15 Gk 5th edition codex In early 901.M41, during the Battle of Kornovin, Mortarion slew Geronitan, the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights Chapter. In his place, the Grey Knights elevated the hero Kaldor Draigo amidst the din of the battlefield and Draigo immediately vowed vengeance against the Daemon Primarch. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashed his way through Mortarion's bodyguard of Plague Marines, struck the ancient Primarch to the ground and carved Geronitan's name on the Daemon Prince's diseased heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escaped, it would be many long years before he could enter the mortal realm once more. Draigo's insult would not soon be forgotten, as the Daemon Primarch vowed his vengeance against the upstart mortal.

See and despair you mighty who fucking said it said nothing about this. Bah. There it is in all it's vileness.

Proves only one thing to me, the Matt Ward-apologists are willing to lie just to make his fluff a little less vile. Or at least overlook.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Did you just reference/spoof Shelley's Ozymandias? 
(If so, well done!)


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

That Audio is even more ridicules. Mortarion kills this other Grandmaster easy, but messes around Draigo? Then Draigo cuts through his uber power Death Shroud bodyguards with ease at that? By himself? 
No.... just no lol :grin:


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, who'd have thought that the greatest Daemonhunter in the galaxy wearing his full anti-Daemon armour, wielding his anti-Daemon sword and chanting his Litany of Banishing would be able to kill Daemons?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, who'd have thought that the greatest Daemonhunter in the galaxy wearing his full anti-Daemon armour, wielding his anti-Daemon sword and chanting his Litany of Banishing would be able to kill Daemons?


Mortarion is not just a Daemon. That much should be obvious.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Mortarion is not just a Daemon. That much should be obvious.


But Draigo is not just a Daemonhunter; that should also be obvious. It's long been the case that Daemon Primarchs have the strength of Daemons, including their immortality, but they are subject to the same weaknesses, namely the difficulty in manifesting themselves in realspace for prolonged periods of time. Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of a Chapter of Space Marines who are the premier anti-Daemon force in the Imperium, if not the galaxy. Why would he *not* be able to defeat a Daemon Primarch? If he'd killed a regular Primarch, that'd be an unrealistic feat, but a Daemon Primarch is vulnerable to all the things that Draigo is the best at, while Draigo is resistant to Daemonic attack through his mental training, discipline and wargear. In becoming Daemon Primarchs, the Primarchs made themselves hugely more powerful in some areas, but gained weaknesses to an incredibly small niche. Draigo is that niche.

This is all as far as I know - I've read some fluff on the Daemon Primarchs and the Codex entry for Draigo, but I haven't read Pandorax or Battle for the Fang or any actual novels with the capabilities of the Daemon Primarchs on display.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> But Draigo is not just a Daemonhunter;


He is a Grey Knight. Who are the best of the dameonhunters but that's all Draigo is unless you can point me to fluff that states otherwise. Mortarion on the other hand is a Daemon primarch. Only 6 exist.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He is a Grey Knight. Who are the best of the dameonhunters but that's all Draigo is unless you can point me to fluff that states otherwise.


He's Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. He's the guy who's better than the eight guys who are better than the Paladins who are revered for their Daemon-hunting skills by Justicars who are better than Grey Knights. He is the best of the best of the best of the Daemonhunters.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Mortarion on the other hand is a Daemon primarch. Only 6 exist.


The Daemon Primarchs would be just as individually powerful if there was one of them, or if there were ten thousand on them. The fact that only six exist is irrelevant - fewer than twenty beings in the galaxy even had the capacity to become Daemon Primarchs, and only what, seven of those would have had any desire or ability to do so (assuming Alpharius and Omegon are not actually Chaos-worshippers, and that Curze would have rather died than become a Daemon Prince, enslaved to Chaos).

The Daemon Primarchs are just that - daemonic. Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of an order dedicated in it's entirety to killing Daemons. 

Think about it - if Draigo couldn't banish Mortarion (not even kill him - _banish_ him) and even then because he had a specific anti-Mortarion weapon in the form of the True Name, who exactly *could* battle a Daemon Primarch? You're dangerously close to making the Daemon Primarchs into the Daemon Mary Sues if you say that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights armed with a True Name can't beat a Daemon Primarch in realspace.


----------



## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Draigo is mary sue do you know what it took to banish angron 100 grey knights with heavy losses space wolves and IG with heavy losses as well. And this guy draigo is able to solo one it ridiculous

Deamon primarchs are not run of the mill deamons. they were once the best mankind had now improved by deamonic warp power


----------



## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

There's one thing that people need to realize when it comes to demon primarchs..... Yes they are insanely powerful, yes they are even stronger then greater demons ( in most cases ) but the problem is in the fact that they are demons. 

Primarchs in my opinion actually got weaker when they turned to demonhood. Everything in Grey knight's arsenal works against them, especially when we are talking about a Grandmaster.

Now, if this was regular great crusade era Angron, or any Primarch, then any of them would have ripped apart Draigo like he were a guardsman. 

Besides, Draigo isn't a thing now anymore. Too bad Epimetheus is now trapped by Abadon because I would love to know just how powerful this guy is. He's one of the founding members afterall. Draigo is a brat for him.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Draigo is mary sue do you know what it took to banish angron 100 grey knights with heavy losses space wolves and IG with heavy losses as well. And this guy draigo is able to solo one it ridiculous
> 
> Deamon primarchs are not run of the mill deamons. they were once the best mankind had now improved by deamonic warp power


Improved in terms of raw power, but they inherit the same weaknesses as all daemons as part of the bargain. 

Also worth noting is that Draigo did not technically destroy Mortarion, nor did he do it completely on his own. This is discussed earlier in this thread.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Think about it - if Draigo couldn't banish Mortarion (not even kill him - banish him) and even then because he had a specific anti-Mortarion weapon in the form of the True Name, who exactly *could* battle a Daemon Primarch? You're dangerously close to making the Daemon Primarchs into the Daemon Mary Sues if you say that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights armed with a True Name can't beat a Daemon Primarch in realspace.


I must concur with your assessment MidnightSun, he would have to have such ridiculous power and skill just to banish him; let along kill him. What I would ask is why people despise his Fluff so much when it's just that....Fluff. The writers created it, GW supports it, and amatuer novelists often make references to it. 

Then why all the hate? Should we hate Ork Warlords and other Astartes Chapters who jump into the Eye of Terror in search of fighting Deamonics?


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Improved in terms of raw power, but they inherit the same weaknesses as all daemons as part of the bargain.
> 
> Also worth noting is that Draigo did not technically destroy Mortarion, nor did he do it completely on his own. This is discussed earlier in this thread.


Wrong, part of the quotation is alone and unaided from page fifteen in the GK-codex. So it's there.


----------

