# POLL: The Emperor's Executioners



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Who actually likes the idea of the SW as the "Emperor's executioners"
Yes, some of you claim that they only think of themselves as such and that they're not actually the Emperor's executioners...but I don't think so. Russ has somehow had a hand in the fates of the two missing primarchs. I think Prospero Burns implies that the Wolves think of themselves as the E's executioners _and_ there's quite a bit of actual history to back it up 

I don't think there's any implication that the Wolves are these awesome anti-Astartes Astartes. That is in my opinion mostly fan [email protected] The Wolves are implied to be willing to do dirty jobs but are not prone to going overboard (as the World Eaters Night Lords probably would) 

However, I have read something recently about WE (I forgot where) and they're starting to be described in a similar way...i.e. the World Eaters are actually very disciplined and their rage is a finely controlled weapon waiting to be unleashed etc. 
I think that would kinda dilute the new schtick Abnett has given the Wolves


----------



## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

They are the only marines who would do unquestioningly what the Emperor asked, I would like to think that no other legion would readily set upon any and all of their brothers with no questions asked, I mean there are exceptions e.g. if Guilliman was told by the Emperor to kill the word bearers, he would have no qualms about it. But if Guilliman was told to destroy the blood angels, I hope for his sake he would not do it. 

Hell I think if the space wolves were told by the Emperor to kill each other till only one was left then there would just be Russ on a mound of his dead sons. 

So basically the reason they are the Emperors executioners is because they are the Emperors puppies, they are the only ones stupid enough to blindly follow him no matter what. (or by extension Horus, which is kind of hilarious if you think about it)

Yeah incase you are wondering, you'll get no puppy love from me, im not what you call a "fan" of the barbarian morons. 

But as for the space wolves being anti-astartes astartes. I think either the world eaters or the thousand sons suit that best. Simply because they got more of themselves killed than anyone else. The thousand sons were sooo anti astartes that their astartes bodies rebelled against themselves and they tore themselves open. Now if that isnt anti-astartes astartes then I don't know what is. 

Also, it is my fervent belief that had the flesh change not gone rife within the thousand sons, I think they might have won that fight on Prospero, and they definitly would have done if it were not for the sisters of silence. The only problem is that Russ is by definition the best at everything and totally above everyone else and unkillable and indestructible and incredibly intelligent and insightful and an amazing fighter and great at unleasing and controlling his rage and never has any qualms about anything and is headstrong but nice ...ect ect ect .... the list goes on for a couple more thousand lines ... 

NOT LIKE IM BITTER OR NUTTHINK!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm indifferent to the idea. The Space Wolves in 40k, seem far,far,different than the Space Wolves of 30K.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Cegorach nailed it on the head. It's not how they fight or any particular special skills they bring to the table, but rather that they're willing to fight anyone at the Emperor's command. 



mob16151 said:


> I'm indifferent to the idea. The Space Wolves in 40k, seem far,far,different than the Space Wolves of 30K.


Different, sorta. Basically the only people the Wolves gave a crap for were 1. The Emperor and 2. Russ.

Neither of those two are around in 40k, so they pretty much don't give a crap.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm sure you can look at Grimnar's handling of the Armageddon war and dispute if they give a crap. They may flip the bird to the Imperium,but they are one of the legions who truly care for the people they are sworn to protect. If you look at the description of primarchs when they've come Russ truly stands alone. While others inspired feelings of dread,wonder,and empowerment Russ in Thousand Sons had an entirely different effect.When Ahriman felt the psychic shock of his entrance he said that he'd felt like the Wolf King was taking him apart with a cursory glance. Where his armor was the weakest and where a blade would slip in the easiest. Go back and check it out. No other primarch has been described with that kind of description,even Angron. Are the Wolves the anti-astartes? Maybe. But you can't deny that when the Emperor wants someone taken down-3 primarchs and running- he calls Russ. He's the only primarch I know it's ben confirmed by the 13th company that he's still in the warp kicking ass and will be found when he wants to. Every primarch has a role to play and being an executioner is his.


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm sure you can look at Grimnar's handling of the Armageddon war and dispute if they give a crap. They may flip the bird to the Imperium,but they are one of the legions who truly care for the people they are sworn to protect. If you look at the description of primarchs when they've come Russ truly stands alone. While others inspired feelings of dread,wonder,and empowerment Russ in Thousand Sons had an entirely different effect.When Ahriman felt the psychic shock of his entrance he said that he'd felt like the Wolf King was taking him apart with a cursory glance. Where his armor was the weakest and where a blade would slip in the easiest. Go back and check it out. No other primarch has been described with that kind of description,even Angron. Are the Wolves the anti-astartes? Maybe. But you can't deny that when the Emperor wants someone taken down-3 primarchs and running- he calls Russ. He's the only primarch I know it's ben confirmed by the 13th company that he's still in the warp kicking ass and will be found when he wants to. Every primarch has a role to play and being an executioner is his.


I was more refeering to how Heresy era Space Wolves, are potrayed, as compared to the Space Wolves, in Battle of the Fang, and "modern" ones. Ragnar Blackmane jumping to mind. And Haegr.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Are the Wolves the anti-astartes? Maybe. But you can't deny that when the Emperor wants someone taken down-3 primarchs and running- he calls Russ. He's the only primarch I know it's ben confirmed by the 13th company that he's still in the warp kicking ass and will be found when he wants to. Every primarch has a role to play and being an executioner is his.


You're skirting around the issue of why that's the role of him and his legion. 

Is it because they're so face-smashing awesome that other legions quake in their power-armored boots?
Or is it because they're unquestioningly loyal (like dogs), brutal but not completely berserk? 

I think it's the latter. Another primarch would either balk if commanded to exterminate a brother hand his legion (Guilliman, Sanguinius, Dorn, etc.) or go overboard/be too hard to control (Angron, Night Haunter) 

I'm pretty sure the Wolves are no better at fighting other Astartes than marines of any other legion. 
Keep in mind that the sanctioning legion would have the full backing of the Imperium and that the sanctioned legion would be ostracized. That alone would be a huge advantage. 
In the case of the SW vs. the TS, the SW arrive with SoS and Custodes. They clearly need help to win.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm pretty sure the Wolves are no better at fighting other Astartes than marines of any other legion.
> Keep in mind that the sanctioning legion would have the full backing of the Imperium and that the sanctioned legion would be ostracized. That alone would be a huge advantage.
> In the case of the SW vs. the TS, the SW arrive with SoS and Custodes. They clearly need help to win.


I actually think that new evidence in _Deliverance Lost_, show that the Wolves did have extremely unusual genetic code compared to the other Geneseed templates. 

They do have actual canine genes in that template, which would also make them natural predators. Remember, I think its key to remember that the Wolves have been on extermination missions at least twice. I think by this note alone, their "anti-astartes" abilities can be seen. 

In _Prospero Burns_, we also see by Leman Russ himself, that his intention was to take Magnus back to Terra without a fight. It can be assumed by this, that the SoS and Custodes were sent with him both to firstly, give Leman Russ the authority of the Emperor himself (as well as to show the seriousness of the situation), and secondly it just makes sense that if your facing an enemy, your going to make the odds against them more than impossible. I think your thinking of it too much as though two Astartes Legions are just going to grind at each other until you get a victor. But given the situation, with Magnus destroying the Imperial Webway, and giving the Imperium a "secret war," the Emperor needed Magnus as soon as possible. I am assuming this was for sitting on the Gold Throne, while the Emperor could better access both wars.

Remember also, that Space Marine Chapters fortress' are described as being impenetrable. In the Battle of the Fang, one company of Space Wolves (The Blood Claws for crying out loud) was allowed to hold off Magnus' whole warband. I think its safe to assume that Prospero was very defended as well even without its fleet.


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I wish they chose someone else besides the space wolves. I don't care if their super duper loyal to the Emperor, its just that their boring as fuck and lack any character besides Leman Russ.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Remember also, that Space Marine Chapters fortress' are described as being impenetrable. In the Battle of the Fang, one company of Space Wolves (The Blood Claws for crying out loud) was allowed to hold off Magnus' whole warband. I think its safe to assume that Prospero was very defended as well even without its fleet.


I'm sure it was, when the defences were actually lit. But if you read _A Thousand Sons_ it becomes apparent that this was definitely not the case. The Sons only became aware of the attack when it was already commencing. _Prospero Burns_ shows that the Wolves were basically able to land and establish a foothold virtually unopposed. Even the Spireguard only started to mobilise properly when the Wolves had already started landing and, as they're humans, their presence really didn't make much of a difference. Hawser even noted that the Sons took quite some time before they came face to face with the Wolves (presumably trying to organise some sort of coherent defence). 

Wolves being chosen as executioners because of their mentally and unquestioning loyalty I can buy. Wolves anti-astartes? My ass. 

Let's be real about it. They were completely getting ass-raped in their first encounter with the Sons up until the Silent Sisters intervened. Doesn't really sound like badass anti-astartes to me.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> I wish they chose someone else besides the space wolves. I don't care if their super duper loyal to the Emperor, its just that their boring as fuck and lack any character besides Leman Russ.


I wasn't a big fan of them until _Prospero Burns_ to be honest. I blaim how they have been written. But I think if you read _Battle of the Fang_, your opinion may change your mind about them. Its a good book, and the characters are written in debt and definitely have great character.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> I'm sure it was, when the defences were actually lit. But if you read _A Thousand Sons_ it becomes apparent that this was definitely not the case. The Sons only became aware of the attack when it was already commencing. _Prospero Burns_ shows that the Wolves were basically able to land and establish a foothold virtually unopposed. Even the Spireguard only started to mobilise properly when the Wolves had already started landing and, as they're humans, their presence really didn't make much of a difference. Hawser even noted that the Sons took quite some time before they came face to face with the Wolves (presumably trying to organise some sort of coherent defence).
> 
> Wolves being chosen as executioners because of their mentally and unquestioning loyalty I can buy. Wolves anti-astartes? My ass.
> 
> Let's be real about it. They were completely getting ass-raped in their first encounter with the Sons up until the Silent Sisters intervened. Doesn't really sound like badass anti-astartes to me.


I disagree with the defenses part. Though it talks about the defenses not being up, I conclude the fact that they were not fully operational. Military defenses are always on watch and operational. Obviously they're defenses were probably not prepared for a legion to assault them. 

I am surprised at how people take the use of the Thousand Sons abilities during the battle as something that was giving them the upper hand. Sure it it for some time, but it was those powers that also became their weakness when they started mutating. The Thousand Sons definitely had the upper hand. How much did the SoS and the Custodes individually to a Thousand Sons space marine? To me it just unabled them to use their pyschic abilities. In the end they were still Astartes and easily put an equal fight. Its not like the Custodes slaughtered Thousand Sons dozens at a time(We've seen how they compare to an individual astartes in many novels). And its not like the SoS were hacking the Thousand Sons into pieces. The Wolves of Fenris had more to the fight then I think you are led to believe. The SoS and Custodes were parts of the force that were created to make the purging go more smoothly. 

In the end, the Wolves of Fenris left Prospero a burning reck. The whole planet and its population obliterated from existence. The Thousand Sons escaped with a little more than a Chapter. And the Wolves, well they left as a legion several times the size of the Thousand Sons.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I disagree with the defenses part. Though it talks about the defenses not being up, I conclude the fact that they were not fully operational. Military defenses are always on watch and operational. Obviously they're defenses were probably not prepared for a legion to assault them.


While they were indeed keeping watch from their weapons platforms, none of their guns were operational when the Wolves attacked. It still states in _A Thousand Sons_ that they were caught *completely unawares* by the Space Wolves attack.

_A Thousand Sons_ p.472, right after the bit about them being caught unawares:



> With no response from the ground, the armada moved into high anchor above Prospero and assumed a geostationary assault pattern


So the Wolves basically were allowed to take control of the skies unchallenged. On the next page it mentions that the first anyone in Tizca was aware of the attack was when the kine shield took a hit.




ckcrawford said:


> I am surprised at how people take the use of the Thousand Sons abilities during the battle as something that was giving them the upper hand. Sure it it for some time, but it was those powers that also became their weakness when they started mutating. The Thousand Sons definitely had the upper hand. How much did the SoS and the Custodes individually to a Thousand Sons space marine? To me it just unabled them to use their pyschic abilities. In the end they were still Astartes and easily put an equal fight. Its not like the Custodes slaughtered Thousand Sons dozens at a time(We've seen how they compare to an individual astartes in many novels). And its not like the SoS were hacking the Thousand Sons into pieces. The Wolves of Fenris had more to the fight then I think you are led to believe. The SoS and Custodes were parts of the force that were created to make the purging go more smoothly.


The Sisters didn't need to hack the Sons apart. They nullified the Thousand Sons' main offensive weapon, which basically left them facing a force of equal martial prowess but with a massive numerical advantage. You think that didn't make a difference? 

Also, we see in _The Outcast Dead_ that a Custodes' mental mapping makes them particularly resistant to mental manipulation (even Atharva the super-Son didn't want to risk trying to mess with one of their heads directly), which would be a major advantage when fighting an army of psychics.

So you say that the Custodes & Sisters were there to make the purging go smoothly? Seeing as Magnus and over a thousand of his warriors escaped, I'd say they failed then.

As for the Wolves doing the majority of the fighting. Well, they were the largest part of the invading force.



ckcrawford said:


> In the end, the Wolves of Fenris left Prospero a burning reck. The whole planet and its population obliterated from existence. The Thousand Sons escaped with a little more than a Chapter. And the Wolves, well they left as a legion several times the size of the Thousand Sons.


Well, they started off as a legion several times the size of the Thousand Sons, so is it really that much of a surprise? Especially considering the fact that they had the element of surprise, Magnus' sabotage of his own legion, assistance from Custodes and SoS (arguably the greatest weakness of the TS), and Thousand Sons succumbing to flesh change. Any of the other legions would have been able to accomplish the same under the circumstances. The only difference is that the Wolves were *willing* to do it.

In fact, in the short story, _Rebirth_, we see how the World Eaters, without any external assistance, manage to take out nearly an entire squad of Sons while hardly breaking a sweat. And it should be noted that they were already servants of Khorne at this point. So much for the mindless berzerkers, who seem to be more competent executioners than the actual supposed *Executioners*.

Like I said, the Wolves aren't anything special when it comes to killing other astartes. If anything, it's their mentality which would make them the choice for executioners.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> While they were indeed keeping watch from their weapons platforms, none of their guns were operational when the Wolves attacked. It still states in _A Thousand Sons_ that they were caught *completely unawares* by the Space Wolves attack.
> 
> _A Thousand Sons_ p.472, right after the bit about them being caught unawares:


It still takes a lot to take an Astartes planet is the point. Sky defenses or not. If the Wolves had just blown up the planet, then I would see your point. But this was a ground and dirty fight. For the purpose of taking Magnus.





Chompy Bits said:


> So the Wolves basically were allowed to take control of the skies unchallenged. On the next page it mentions that the first anyone in Tizca was aware of the attack was when the kine shield took a hit.


Not denying this. This was still about for the city of Prospero. The Wolves didn't use their armada to blow up the planet.




Chompy Bits said:


> The Sisters didn't need to hack the Sons apart. They nullified the Thousand Sons' main offensive weapon, which basically left them facing a force of equal martial prowess but with a massive numerical advantage. You think that didn't make a difference?
> 
> Also, we see in _The Outcast Dead_ that a Custodes' mental mapping makes them particularly resistant to mental manipulation (even Atharva the super-Son didn't want to risk trying to mess with one of their heads directly), which would be a major advantage when fighting an army of psychics.


You assume that the Thousand Sons main weapon of use was their sorcery. But only the most powerful Thousand Sons Warriors used their sorcery. And even then, they devasted themselves. I still claim that their main weapons were their astartes abilities and bolters. Again, so much they could do before they mutated themselves.



Chompy Bits said:


> So you say that the Custodes & Sisters were there to make the purging go smoothly? Seeing as Magnus and over a thousand of his warriors escaped, I'd say they failed then.
> 
> As for the Wolves doing the majority of the fighting. Well, they were the largest part of the invading force.


It did go pretty smoothly. This happened in a very short amount of time. They destroyed Prospero pretty smoothly with the Thousand Sons forced to retreat. They weren't even able to establish a fortification and hold off for a good amount of time.



Chompy Bits said:


> Well, they started off as a legion several times the size of the Thousand Sons, so is it really that much of a surprise? Especially considering the fact that they had the element of surprise, Magnus' sabotage of his own legion, assistance from Custodes and SoS (arguably the greatest weakness of the TS), and Thousand Sons succumbing to flesh change. Any of the other legions would have been able to accomplish the same under the circumstances. The only difference is that the Wolves were *willing* to do it.


You forget that the Wolves also have one of the smallest legions as well. It is never mentioned that the Wolves of Fenris had superior numbers to the Thousand Sons. Remember, the Wolves have also exterminated 2 other legions. If their was a legion undermanned, it would have been the Wolves. Remember the Thousand Sons are not the smallest legion. We know that the Salamanders were the smallest legion. Also, the Emperor's Children had suffered worst with only have 200 at their Primarchs arrival. The Raven Guard are also regarded as having a small legion. The Warp change until the burning of Prospero was not a matter considering, Magnus had made a pact with the Changer of Ways.



Chompy Bits said:


> In fact, in the short story, _Rebirth_, we see how the World Eaters, without any external assistance, manage to take out nearly an entire squad of Sons while hardly breaking a sweat. And it should be noted that they were already servants of Khorne at this point. So much for the mindless berzerkers, who seem to be more competent executioners than the actual supposed *Executioners*.
> 
> Like I said, the Wolves aren't anything special when it comes to killing other astartes. If anything, it's their mentality which would make them the choice for executioners.


The World Eaters do seem like a legion that could battle other astartes well in close combat. But thats all that means. Where the World Eaters excel with brute force, they lack in tactic, purpose, and objective. The World Eaters could never be trusted. The Emperor could not trust them, and neither could Horus. The battle of Istvaan was very costly because Angron and the World Eaters made an extermination into a unending battle.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> The Sisters didn't need to hack the Sons apart. They nullified the Thousand Sons' main offensive weapon, which basically left them facing a force of equal martial prowess but with a massive numerical advantage. You think that didn't make a difference?


I would argue they weren't of equal martial prowess. The Thousand Sons relied very heavily on their sorcery, to help co-ordinate troops, detect incoming attacks, use pyrotechnic and electrical offensive abilities along with bio-manipulation. They had been doing this for much of the crusade and it stands to reason that their general soldiering, skills and drills without sorcery would not be as well honed as the Wolves.




Chompy Bits said:


> So you say that the Custodes & Sisters were there to make the purging go smoothly? Seeing as Magnus and over a thousand of his warriors escaped, I'd say they failed then.


They 'failed' because Tzeentch intervened and saved Magnus and the rest of his Legion. Teleporting them away into the Eye itself. No one could have possibly predicted that outcome. And if that had not happened, then Magnus would be dead and the rest of his legion annihilated. Even then, as ck said, it did go smoothly, they obliterated Tizca, all other cities and the land itself off the face of Prospero and turned the Thousand Sons into an utterly combat ineffective force. They succeeded as well as anyone could have hoped, again with only Tzeentch denying them total victory.





Chompy Bits said:


> In fact, in the short story, _Rebirth_, we see how the World Eaters, without any external assistance, manage to take out nearly an entire squad of Sons while hardly breaking a sweat. And it should be noted that they were already servants of Khorne at this point. So much for the mindless berzerkers, who seem to be more competent executioners than the actual supposed *Executioners*.


As you said, they are now serving Khorne, wouldn't be a stretch to say they had anti-psyker protection by that point. That and the Thousand Sons were on totally unfamilar ground, with very little in the way of cover. They are confused and standing in the destroyed ground of their once beautiful planet. And then the Wolves also left numerous runes and marks across the ruins which we know can dampen or even nullify completely psychic abilities. And they are of course outnumbered.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Space puppy fanboy alarm bells wailing.

Ridiculous aggrandising.

Everyone might aswell just start a thread entitled "Are [insert favourite chapter here] the most awesomest".

The Space Wolves were sent after the Thousand Sons. Now, all of a sudden, they are the executioners.

As though they'd be any more suited to being 'executioner' than any other chapter.

What a rolling pile of steamy bs fanfiction.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> It still takes a lot to take an Astartes planet is the point. Sky defenses or not. If the Wolves had just blown up the planet, then I would see your point. But this was a ground and dirty fight. For the purpose of taking Magnus.


The only reason that the Wolves had to come down and fight was because they couldn't penetrate the kine shield protecting Tizca. And they only reason that was active was because Magnus couldn't have had it disabled without raising suspicion. So instead of the significant planetary defences you seem to imply that they had, all they really had was one defensive shield. 





ckcrawford said:


> Not denying this. This was still about for the city of Prospero. The Wolves didn't use their armada to blow up the planet.


Again, they couldn't blow up Tizca because of the shield. And it wasn't for lack of trying. They blew the rest of the planet to shit, to the point where its whole integrity became unstable.




ckcrawford said:


> You assume that the Thousand Sons main weapon of use was their sorcery. But only the most powerful Thousand Sons Warriors used their sorcery. And even then, they devasted themselves. I still claim that their main weapons were their astartes abilities and bolters. Again, so much they could do before they mutated themselves.


We'll have to agree to disagree here, as different fluff seems to vary on how the Sons used their powers. _Prospero Burns_ showed large amounts of Sons using offensive and defensive powers in their first encounter. During the battle of Shrike in _A Thousand Sons_ it is even noted that every squad had adepts from multiple cults, which would imply that there were quite a few of them with active powers. Also, in other pieces of HH fluff, such as _Battle for the Abyss_ (while it is shit, it still counts), it seems to imply that a large portion of Sons did indeed have powers.




ckcrawford said:


> It did go pretty smoothly. This happened in a very short amount of time. They destroyed Prospero pretty smoothly with the Thousand Sons forced to retreat. They weren't even able to establish a fortification and hold off for a good amount of time.


They did establish a defensive perimeter, but it all went to shit when the one Thousand Son (I forget his name) lost control of his powers and blew up, causing a massive chain of destruction that quite possibly changed the tide of the entire battle. And that wasn't of the Wolves' doing. That was just coz' the Son was an overconfident jackass, who's reach clearly extended his grasp as far as his powers were concerned.



ckcrawford said:


> You forget that the Wolves also have one of the smallest legions as well. It is never mentioned that the Wolves of Fenris had superior numbers to the Thousand Sons. Remember, the Wolves have also exterminated 2 other legions. If their was a legion undermanned, it would have been the Wolves. Remember the Thousand Sons are not the smallest legion. We know that the Salamanders were the smallest legion. Also, the Emperor's Children had suffered worst with only have 200 at their Primarchs arrival. The Raven Guard are also regarded as having a small legion. The Warp change until the burning of Prospero was not a matter considering, Magnus had made a pact with the Changer of Ways.


Dude, it says exactly that it _Prospero Burns_, It still mentioned that while the Wolves *did* outnumber the Sons, they were still fearful due to the Sons using their powers to even the battle. Also, even in the older novels (before the legion resizing to 100 000) the Emperor's Children numbered around 11,000, which is still larger than the Sons. Seeing as neither the Raven Guard or Salamanders suffered the kind of problems the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons did, nor were they in the position of the Wolves where they needed to sanction their brothers, I'd be willing to bet that both those legions outnumbered the other three mentioned.



ckcrawford said:


> The World Eaters do seem like a legion that could battle other astartes well in close combat. But thats all that means. Where the World Eaters excel with brute force, they lack in tactic, purpose, and objective. The World Eaters could never be trusted. The Emperor could not trust them, and neither could Horus. The battle of Istvaan was very costly because Angron and the World Eaters made an extermination into a unending battle.


Except they didn't blindly charge them. They used tactics and led an ambush that wiped out most of the Sons before they even knew what was really going on. I never said that the World Eaters should be Executioners, just that they showed that they were indeed competent enough to do something like that. But then, it should be noted that these WE were under the command of Kharn and not Angron. Maybe that made the difference.



Angel of Blood said:


> I would argue they weren't of equal martial prowess. The Thousand Sons relied very heavily on their sorcery, to help co-ordinate troops, detect incoming attacks, use pyrotechnic and electrical offensive abilities along with bio-manipulation. They had been doing this for much of the crusade and it stands to reason that their general soldiering, skills and drills without sorcery would not be as well honed as the Wolves.


Well, that just supports my point that the SoS had a very large impact on the outcome of the battle. Also, thinking now specifically what you said, their effect in one on one combat wasn't even their most serious threat. Seeing as the Athanaans and Corvidae were coordinating and directing the battle, if their powers were suddenly disabled it would have an effect that stretched far further than the immediate area as it would effectively impede the Sons' ability to coordinate a defense and their operation as a cohesive unit during the battle.





Angel of Blood said:


> They 'failed' because Tzeentch intervened and saved Magnus and the rest of his Legion. Teleporting them away into the Eye itself. No one could have possibly predicted that outcome. And if that had not happened, then Magnus would be dead and the rest of his legion annihilated. Even then, as ck said, it did go smoothly, they obliterated Tizca, all other cities and the land itself off the face of Prospero and turned the Thousand Sons into an utterly combat ineffective force. They succeeded as well as anyone could have hoped, again with only Tzeentch denying them total victory.


Fair point, but one can also argue that they lost because of Tzeentch, as a large portion of the Sons (most predominantly their psykers, their most powerful warriors) who were still fighting fit succumbed to the flesh change, something brought on by Tzeentch. Also, Magnus himself did a pretty good job of fucking everything up for the Sons, giving them the worst possible chances of victory. Which is horse shit considering that he claims the punishment is for him alone. While I like the Sons themselves, Magnus is a douchebag.




Angel of Blood said:


> As you said, they are now serving Khorne, wouldn't be a stretch to say they had anti-psyker protection by that point. That and the Thousand Sons were on totally unfamilar ground, with very little in the way of cover. They are confused and standing in the destroyed ground of their once beautiful planet. And then the Wolves also left numerous runes and marks across the ruins which we know can dampen or even nullify completely psychic abilities. And they are of course outnumbered.


Good points again, especially Khorne giving them protection. I'll have to double check the story because its been a while since I read it but I'm pretty sure they still had access to their abilities, as the one Corvidae did manage to use his foresight to evade the World Eaters and eventually escape. Also, I'd argue that the Sons were just as confused at the start of the razing of Prospero, seeing as they were effectively blindsided due to Magnus. As for numbers, it was the same situation when the Wolves invaded.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to bash the Wolves. I'm just saying that the deck was heavily stacked against the Sons and that other legions could have been just as effective as the Wolves at destroying Prospero. I was just saying that I don't believe the Wolves are anti-astartes, and have super powers when is comes to fighting their brothers. And that is what I think makes it better. That, in spite of the fact that they aren't innately superior, and where other legions would refuse, they are still willing to take the mantle of executioner and do the dirty work with unquestioning loyalty and dedication. It speaks loads about their character and their diedication to the Imperium.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baltar said:


> Space puppy fanboy alarm bells wailing.
> 
> Ridiculous aggrandising.
> 
> ...


Gen.ahab hasn't even been on the thread yet. As far as I know, you haven't had a space wolf fan on the thread yet. I'm more of a chaos fan, and Angel of Blood... well you can guess what he is. 

I do like the fact that each legion had its own special purpose and ability. After this, they are pretty much done in the Heresy. The Wolves aren't invincible in the fluff as they've suffered their own problems after the Burning of Prospero.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The mantle of the Emperor's executioners should shift towards the World Eaters otherwise the Wolves are too perfect - violent but obedient dogs who do not fight the direction of their leash.

I don't see the purpose of the World Eaters. Why send a legion that utterly destroys everything on a planet when you can send one that does the exact same thing but can refrain from destroying specific targets if desired?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> The only reason that the Wolves had to come down and fight was because they couldn't penetrate the kine shield protecting Tizca. And they only reason that was active was because Magnus couldn't have had it disabled without raising suspicion. So instead of the significant planetary defences you seem to imply that they had, all they really had was one defensive shield.
> 
> They had the capital of an Astartes home world. You are significantly underplaying what that means.
> 
> ...


Ten character limit.


ckcrawford said:


> Gen.ahab hasn't even been on the thread yet. As far as I know, you haven't had a space wolf fan on the thread yet. I'm more of a chaos fan, and Angel of Blood... well you can guess what he is.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

*1) When Russ "lashed out blindly" and hit Magnus' eye, it's entirely plausible that Tzeentch was manipulating fate and guiding Russ' hand* 
*
2) The battle was incredibly stacked in the Wolves' favour*

a) A defending force usually has an advantage over an attacking force. The advantage the Sons should've enjoyed over the Wolves was almost completely nullified by _Magnus' sabotage _

b) The Wolves' vastly _outnumbered_ the Sons 

c) The TS specialized in sorcery/psykery. The SoS _greatly reduced the Sons' ability to use their most potent weapon_. 

d) _The Wolves' primarch_ was rampaging on the battlefield unchecked. The Sons' primarch was sulking in his room. 

e) On top of that, _Constantin Valdor and a bunch of custodes_ were on team Puppy

*How could the Wolves not win? They'd have to be retarded to lose...
The Burning of Prospero doesn't prove that the Wolves are these unstoppable anti-Astartes Astartes. It proves that the Wolves aren't totally incompetent (and that they're willing to do dirty jobs)*


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

There are some serious assumptions going on in this thread. Don't get me wrong, that's the nature of 40K, but sometimes it's like people are reading a different series to me. I'm not even sure where to start.

Okay, from the top...



MontytheMighty said:


> Who actually likes the idea of the SW as the "Emperor's executioners"
> Yes, some of you claim that they only think of themselves as such and that they're not actually the Emperor's executioners...but I don't think so. Russ has somehow had a hand in the fates of the two missing primarchs. I think Prospero Burns implies that the Wolves think of themselves as the E's executioners _and_ there's quite a bit of actual history to back it up
> 
> I don't think there's any implication that the Wolves are these awesome anti-Astartes Astartes. That is in my opinion mostly fan [email protected] The Wolves are implied to be willing to do dirty jobs but are not prone to going overboard (as the World Eaters Night Lords probably would)
> ...


That makes a lot of sense, though I'd add a few points.

As far as I remember, there are two views shown in _Prospero Burns_, and one of them is much more obvious than the other. The majority view in _Prospero Burns_ (and in the marketing / trailer video) is that the Space Wolves are the executioners because they're stronger, better, tougher. Their obedience isn't really mentioned as much, it's almost entirely about their level of competence. In the novel itself, the Space Wolves' superiority is repeatedly stated (by biased characters or not, it's still frequently stated) and in the trailer for the book itself, Dan famously says _"Space Marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. And it begs the question: Why would the Emperor permit something so quite dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another Legion."_ 

Now, while that's marketing and the stuff in the novel itself is mostly in-character bias, there's definitely a trend there. 

In the 2 years since Prospero Burns, I've talked about this a lot on forums and at signings, especially with people who've said they don't understand why the Space Wolves were chosen for this role, rather than the Night Lords or (especially) the World Eaters. The common perception among non-Wolf fans is that the Space Wolves have started to tread on other Legions' toes with their new expertise - i.e. being more savage, brutal and ruthless than the World Eaters. Which, well, isn't true. But it makes a great soundbite.

Over the course of those 2 years, one of the things I've tried to make clear is that the World Eaters and the Night Lords couldn't be the executioners because, no matter how competent they would be, they couldn't be trusted. Because of my schedule, I've had to wait a long, long time to get it into a novel, but there are two quotes that often do the rounds on WarSeer and B&C, which explain the situation pretty well:



Me said:


> "Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
> 
> The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."
> 
> ...


As far as I'm aware, there aren't any changes to the World Eaters that you mentioned, making them "very disciplined and their rage is a finely controlled weapon waiting to be unleashed". I'm sure some of them will fight that way (every warrior is different, after all) but the Butcher's Nails tend to stop that kind of controlled aggression. 

But on the flipside...:



ThatOtherGuy said:


> I wish they chose someone else besides the space wolves.


Remember, you have the Wolves _claiming_ they're the executioners, and a small handful of people who clearly believe the legend. What happens if, in later books, other Legions make the same claim? What if they say they were first on the scene to destroy the Lost Legions, or that the Emperor asked them first, and they refused, letting the "weakling Wolves" do it, because they had no interest in it. Remember, Legions talk smack about each other a lot, and glorify themselves - and it's an era where legends and myths are as true as the truth, depending on perspective. There's nothing saying the Wolves really were the Emperor's executioners. I suspect most of the other Legions would find the notion amusing, if anything.

As for Legion sizes...:



ckcrawford said:


> In the end, the Wolves of Fenris left Prospero a burning reck. The whole planet and its population obliterated from existence. The Thousand Sons escaped with a little more than a Chapter. And the Wolves, well they left as a legion several times the size of the Thousand Sons.


Again... sort of. Remember, the numbers in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons are wrong. They're using older Legion size references, when the Legions were 10,000 strong. But the Legions were set as being 100,000 strong. I tend to just say "Uh, times it by ten" any time a number of Legionaries is mentioned in those books, which is probably more accurate than sticking to the incorrect figures straight out.

And as for the Siege of Prospero... Honestly, some of the opinions here are vastly understating the advantage that the Wolves had. There was nothing remotely even about that fight. That was the point; it wasn't a battle, it was an execution. 

Let's look at it the other way for a moment. Imagine Leman Russ was told to attack Prospero. 

Now imagine he does it by directly sabotaging his own Legion. They need to attack the world, right? He sends their entire fleet away. The Thousands Sons still have their fleet, though. Y'know, the very mightiest aspect of a Space Marine Legion? Yeah, that's there this time. It's in orbit, and the Wolves have no fleet at all, this time. 

Also, Leman Russ doesn't join the fight until the very last minute. In fact, he actively conceals intelligence from the Space Wolves (he even kills some of his best warriors to hide the fact that the Thousand Sons are attacking), so the Thousand Sons can arrange themselves in perfect tactical readiness and are halfway through cutting the Wolves to pieces before the Rout can even get organised. 

So for the entire battle, you have Magnus the Red devastating entire regiments, while Leman Russ stays in his chamber, wracked by guilt. 

But let's add some more truth to this. The Thousand Sons are also working with the Sisters of Silence, who completely destroy most psychic power the Space Wolves would have used. Perhaps more importantly, the Thousand Sons are also fighting with a massive host of Custodians: the finest warriors in the Imperium - the Emperor's own elite guard.

Let's just sum that up. 

For that fight, the Thousand Sons...:

- Lost their _entire fleet_ (along with the Legionnaires on board those hundreds of ships).
- Were attacked by an enemy that had time to completely set up the perfect tactical attack, with total surprise, compromising everything except the city's very last defences.
- Were outnumbered.
- Were demoralised by the fact their own Primarch was betraying them to death, and were hindered by Magnus directly trying to ensure his Legion died.
- Were attacked not only by the Wolves (as equal foes), but also by a fucking _Primarch_ (which they didn't have); the Sisters of Silence (which they didn't have) and the Emperor's own elite guard (which, again, they didn't have). 

Now, for really reals, with the greatest respect... I can't take someone seriously if they consider that a fair fight, or that the Wolves somehow had a tough time of it. They walked through that fight (an execution, shall we say) and you don't have to be a Space Wolf hater to step back and say "Damn, yeah, they really had it easy."

Because, well, they did. Someone said that another poster was vastly understating hat attacking an Astartes homeworld means, but that's the point. The Thousand Sons never had a chance to use those defences. They never got to be a homeworld at war. All of their defences but the final lines were simply bypassed because their own primarch was sabotaging and betraying them.

You can make it even simpler, really. 

Space Marine Legion vs. Space Marine Legion + 1 Primarch + The Legiones Custodes + The Sisters of Silence + Massive Tactical Advantage.

Those are some odds.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Because, well, they did. Someone said that another poster was vastly understating hat attacking an Astartes homeworld means, but that's the point. The Thousand Sons never had a chance to use those defences. They never got to be a homeworld at war. All of their defences but the final lines were simply bypassed because their own primarch was sabotaging and betraying them.


Yes, I believe that was me..... though it was so long ago now that I am not quite sure. Anyway, lets just go with the assumption that it was. They are still an astartes legion and it was still their capital city. Even if the vast majority of the defenses were shut down and they were caught with their pants around their ankles, taking the city would still be incredibly costly. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it was a fair fight. Quite the opposite, at least I would think. The Sons fates were pretty much signed, sealed and delivered. They really didn't have a chance in holy hell of winning, and I don't think either side of this argument is suggesting that. In fact, I would say it was a done deal even without the assistance of the sisters and the custodes. However, I could be wrong.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> In fact, I would say it was a done deal even without the assistance of the sisters and the custodes. However, I could be wrong.


Without the sisters...I dunno about that
The Wolves would have a massive numerical advantage, the element of surprise, a primarch but no counter to the Sons' psychic powers

They'd better hope the Sons start exploding by themselves (which they might)


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Without the sisters...I dunno about that
> The Wolves would have a massive numerical advantage, the element of surprise, a primarch but no counter to the Sons' psychic powers
> 
> They'd better hope the Sons start exploding by themselves (which they might)


The Rout were fairly decent at canceling those out on their own, though admittedly not NEARLY as effective as the sisters. I would imagine they would simply overwhelm the weaker sections of the sons defensive line and crush the stronger members with sheer numbers.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Interesting quotes Aaron, where are they from?


----------



## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

from himself


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

This thread is almost a clone of one we went through previously. Questions like these keep getting asked because no one on here ever does a history search to see if the topic they are posting has already been debated. Like we said, who can you trust? The Emperor isn't stupid.I keep hearing this shit about the Night Lords and the World Eaters. Why don't you all go and look at what happened when Russ met the Emperor. The Emeperor won a fight and Russ swore fealty to him. End of story. They've bumped heads here and their but Russ loves his father and will do anything for him. Now let's go on to the Night Lords. If when you first met your son he begins to claw his eyes out and after being restrained he tells you that his discovery by you heralds his own doom, are you going to give him missions like taking down legions?

Angron was recruited against his will. After murdering his own legion staff in rage and anguish over his abductment by the Emperor he finally calmed down and started lobotomizing them to increase their aggression. The Emperor told him to stop but yet again he still continued along with his brutal tactics. Same thing with the Night Lords. How many times had they been told to ease up on the terror and they didn't. An executioner has to be someone who above all else you trust. They are ruthless and effiecient yes but above all else you trust them. 

Yes the Night Lords and World Eaters are ruthless and effiecient (World Eaters in their own way) but don't be idiots. Curze was already rogue before even Horus. If the Heresy had never occured hunting down Konrad would have been the next big thing and you know it. Angron always rebelled against the Emperor's orders. Even HORUS had trouble reigning him in or more than one occasion such as Istavaan when he disobeyed orders for bloodlust. In truth the Wolves are easy to control and deploy then the Night Lords and World Eaters. They do what they want when they want. They've both brokend down into warbands. The Night Lords can't even be controlled by the Black Legion truthfully much less by chaos. It was smart, the Wolves are the only real option for executioner. The other two might tell the Emperor to go screw himself if they didn't like the mission.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Apfeljunge said:


> from himself


Fair enough, so not from a novel or something that i've missed.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Objective discussion has taken place.

I am happy.

Finally a thread where people don't just mindlessly bum the Space Gimlis.

I like the idea that this *one* task was given to the space wolves due to the questionable ethics of some of the other available chapters. However, I would like to know why a chapter such as the White Scars wouldn't be as viable for the job.

As it is, I think this questionless devotion reflects well on the Space Wolves. The quote given by Dead Blue Clown (the top one) is clearly biased (as it's meant to be, I think): They were not acting like dogs at all. Wolves are a pack hunter, and whichever is the largest/toughest wolf will assert its dominance. Between the Emperor and Russ, this was the Emperor. Now, like any pack wolf, Russ does exactly as commanded. It fits perfectly.

This whole "executioner" title, though, I'm afraid, is 100% absolutely fanfic bullshit. It's just fanboys aggrandising *one* single mission.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Interesting quotes Aaron, where are they from?


They were to answer a question I got asked a bajillion years ago, about how the World Eaters and Night Lords would feel about not being the executioners.

They'll likely make it into future novels, in some edited form or other. One of those "This is what characters X and Y would think, not necessarily what I personally think" deals.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I like the idea of the Wolves seeing themselves as the Emperors Executioners. Adds a bit more depth to them and Russ that they think they carry that burden, that if anyone steps out of line they think it will always be them that will be called, and that they will do it, even it is one of their closest brothers.

But as to whether they ARE the Emperors Executioners is another matter. I see them more as the Emperors 'go to' Legion, simply because as has been stated numerous time, their unwavering loyalty and devotion to the Emperor that they will do whatever he commands without hesitation. They aren't any better at fighting astartes than other Legions, though in the case of The Sons I would say they were better warriors once The Sons powers were nullified(which is another reason why they had such an advantage), but they won't balk, even for a moment at the Emperors commands. 

The addition of them having canine DNA in their gene seed from _Deliverance Lost_ is interesting though, does make you wonder if the Emperor indeed did want a Legion who would be more predatory/loyal when designing them.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> They were to answer a question I got asked a bajillion years ago, about how the World Eaters and Night Lords would feel about not being the executioners.
> 
> They'll likely make it into future novels, in some edited form or other. One of those "This is what characters X and Y would think, not necessarily what I personally think" deals.


Fair do's, quite interesting. The Night Lords one is sufficiently disturbing ^^


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Baltar said:


> However, I would like to know why a chapter such as the White Scars wouldn't be as viable for the job.


The Imperial authorities kept bitching about having to relay the tarmac to cover up the donuts left by the White Scars on every planet they visited.:biggrin:

Seriously though, it's true that the White Scars are still not getting any love from BL. The fact that they are hardly even mentioned in the discussion just shows how little page time they get. I mean, there's been how many HH books now and the Scars have featured like twice, and briefly at that. Maybe I'm having a brain fart at the moment, but the only times I can remember them featuring are in _Descent of Angels_ where they did jack shit, and the short story about Little Horus where they were portrayed as awesome but still only featured briefly. They were even described as being similar to the SW in how they operate.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love having the White Scars expanded on.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Don't worry - they will get serious love.

They are at the battle for the Emperor's palace, after all.










This is GW's diorama of the battle at Eternity Gate. Isn't that Khan on the back of the rhino charging from inside the wall? 

This certifies badass all on its own.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah I'm looking forward to the Khan saying "fuck this siege bullshit, i'm going outside!"

Doing a Theoden, but yeling "Astartes!!!" instead of Rohirrim.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

You can't see it in this photo because it's cropped off the bottom edge, but there is a huge pile of loyalist bodies upon which stands Abaddon, challenging anyone to climb (and I believe there are a fair number of loyalists charging up the pile to get slaughtered).

Sanguinius is also (just visible) seen atop the main gate, about to smash the bloodthirster.

This entire battle has awesome ooozing out of it from so many locations. It will be incredibly difficult for any writer to do it justice, but I have high hopes.

That hope is entirely that Abnett is not allowed anywhere near it.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> though admittedly not NEARLY as effective as the sisters


The Tsons are a legion of psykers. The SoS basically prevented them from effectively utilising their greatest strength. 

Imagine if the White Scars could not use lightning warfare because their bikes suddenly stopped working. That's analogous to what happened to the Tsons when the SoS appeared on the battlefield. 



Baltar said:


> However, I would like to know why a chapter such as the White Scars wouldn't be as viable for the job.





Angel of Blood said:


> Yeah I'm looking forward to the Khan saying "fuck this siege bullshit, i'm going outside!"





Chompy Bits said:


> And I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love having the White Scars expanded on.


I've been clamoring for a HH WS novel for quite a while. Dan has confirmed interest in writing a such a novel. If anyone can make the WS more than just one-dimensional Space Mongols, it's Mr. Abnett. 

I would also love to know what distinguishes the WS from the SW (other than that one is based on the Mongols and the other on the Vikings) 
They seem to have a lot in common, and their primarchs are best buddies. Exploration of what makes them distinct from one another would be very interesting to read. Also, some well-written interaction between Russ and the Khan would make me nerdgasm. Perhaps a sparring scene


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

What I want.

What I really want.

Is the Matrix car chase/bike scene, but with White Scars bikers. Yes.

What I do not want.

What I really do not want.

Is some Sons of Anarchy style portrayal of the White Scars, where they are just a bunch of space marines who hang around bikes. Talk about bikes. Pretened to like bikes. And generally don't ride bikes very much. No.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, I would love to see how The Khan takes making the decision to not help Russ to go to the Emperors side instead.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the SW are a lot more popular than the WS because Mongols tend to be rather vilified in Western culture, whereas everyone likes Vikings

Ironically, or rather appropriately, there's a famous "motorcycle club" (outlaw biker gang) called the Mongols in the U.S.
They had a war going on with the Hell's Angels


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> The Tsons are a legion of psykers. The SoS basically prevented them from effectively utilising their greatest strength.
> 
> Imagine if the White Scars could not use lightning warfare because their bikes suddenly stopped working. That's analogous to what happened to the Tsons when the SoS appeared on the battlefield.


Yes.... and? I'm sorry, but I don't see where you are going with this, or rather how it disagrees with what I have said. They opened up a window which the wolves were able to use to get in amongst the Sons which is where shit went wrong for team Magnus, but the Sons were still massively outnumbered and even if the Sisters weren't there I would be willing to bet that pure overwhelming numbers would have eventually won the Rout the battle.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye, the Sons still had more than enough things going against them without the Sisters of Silence. Toron still would very likely have detonated, which in turn killed Khalophis and a great deal of other Sons, also ruining any semblance of a defensive line they had. T'Kar and Auramagma would still probably have been killed by Valdor/Russ. That's four of their most powerful warriors dead, none of whom were killed by the Sisters of Silence, infact all of them died because of using their powers too much.

And again at the end of the day the Rout had their Primarch, his elite and Valdor rampaging through Prospero utterly unopposed by any meaningful adversary whilst Magnus stayed in his chamber.

Like ahab, I'm quite certain the Rout would have still won, but certainly would have taken more casualties.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think the SW are a lot more popular than the WS because Mongols tend to be rather vilified in Western culture, whereas everyone likes Vikings
> 
> Ironically, or rather appropriately, there's a famous "motorcycle club" (outlaw biker gang) called the Mongols in the U.S.
> They had a war going on with the Hell's Angels


I REEEEEAAAALLLY hope that whoever writes about the WS stays WELL CLEAR of ANYTHING related, in even the remotest possible way, to biker gangs.

If they don't, the book will be a complete pile of steamy shit.

The ONLY thing in common I would wish such a book to have with the whole biker gang culture thing is the word 'bike'. Nothing more.

Like I already said, I want racer style bike scenes. We are talking awesome futuristic bikes here. I don't want it to be a bunch of wannabe hardasses sat around revving their engines and pretending to be tough, while not actually doing any riding.

Forget all the Harley shit. Me want proper bikes to appear. Fast bikes. Not just loud bikes.

Let the Orks do all that silly nonsense.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Baltar said:


> I REEEEEAAAALLLY hope that whoever writes about the WS stays WELL CLEAR of ANYTHING related, in even the remotest possible way, to biker gangs.
> 
> If they don't, the book will be a complete pile of steamy shit.


I highly doubt the authour would draw inspiration from biker gangs...
Medieval Mongols would be most likely be the primary foundation 

I _think_ Dan has actually started a bit of work on the WS novel. The working title is claimed to be "Unremembered Empire". Not sure if my sources are reliable though...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HorusHeresy
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92011


----------

