# To SW Fans: What exactly separates Abnett's Wolves from King's?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Just interested in hearing what you guys think
What are the major differences in culture, characterisation etc.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Honestly, at this point in time, the question is more properly asked as:

"What's the difference between Chris Wraight's Space Wolves and Bill Kings?"

Bill King set the standard for what it was for the Space Wolves Legion/Chapter. While some folks look to Dan Abnett, most folks will say that Wraight is the truest successor writer to King with his interpretation of them in this "Battle of the Fang" SMB novel.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

*wet leopard growl*


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> *wet leopard growl*


Besides that LOL



Diatribe1974 said:


> Honestly, at this point in time, the question is more properly asked as:
> 
> "What's the difference between Chris Wraight's Space Wolves and Bill Kings?"
> 
> Bill King set the standard for what it was for the Space Wolves Legion/Chapter. While some folks look to Dan Abnett, most folks will say that Wraight is the truest successor writer to King with his interpretation of them in this "Battle of the Fang" SMB novel.


Then what are the differences among the three? 
I'm most interested in the differences between the Wolves' portrayal in Prospero Burns and their portrayal in King's old Space Wolf novels


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

*cracks knuckles* Where to begin? As a preface, let me state up front that I am a seriously big fan of the new Abnett portrayal of the SW. So my prejudices will probably show :biggrin:

As I see it, the core major difference is actually tone. The King version of SWs is extremely ... goofy? Yes, like any 40k entity they have their moments of pure brutality and crazy mania. But this is interspersed with almost comical moments of joviality you might expect to see in some tween fantasy novel. The first omnibus wasn't so bad. But the second really flipped things into overdrive, particularly in the form of Haegr : a veteran SW who among other things 1.) literally carries around a keg of ale. 2.) is so fat he has specially shaped power armor 3.) picks up people and uses them as improv weapons, in ha-ha pro wrestling fashion. It's like King thought "hmm. How can I overemphasize 'HEY GUYS - THESE ARE SPACE VIKINGS. SERIOUSLY. SPACE. VIKINGS.'" This trivializes them and takes a way some of their zing.

Abnett's new version makes them altogether more dark. Instead of ale swigging, brawl-having, haunch-of-meat munching Vikings, they are portrayed almost as grim cavemen. They value quietly staring at a fire in the dark. In fact, 'telling stories around the fire while the darkness surrounds' is so entrenched in their culture, it is their literal record keeping mechanism for everything. They are overtly superstitious, even though they realize the origin of their superstition is the very real Empyrean. They have elaborate rituals involving bone rattling and blood and sweat and ash and darkness. They are hunters and grim executioners. But they aren't absolute primitives. They just _really_ hang on to their old traditions and ways. They are simply gritty, where the King SWs are goofy. 

I also particularly like how Abnett portrays them as being very matter-of-fact. To them, the rules and laws are incredibly simple and obvious. Oh, you're just some random human storyteller? Why _wouldn't_ you just be able to walk around wherever you want in the Fang and ask whatever you want to whomever you want? To them, there's no harm caused by this, so it's obvious there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it. This sort of very basic, reductionist view of things is part of what makes them so elemental. They have a very clear, simple view on life. They aren't weighed down by all the silly baggage of our modern, Hollywood-ized exaggerated view of what Vikings are. In fact, I think the way Abnett does it, it's almost better to shed the whole 'viking' moniker entirely and just think of them more like especially clever neanderthals or something.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Cowbell hits the nail on the head for me.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Anybody else have a chuckle at them finding "Space Wolves" a silly name?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Tawa said:


> Anybody else have a chuckle at them finding "Space Wolves" a silly name?


Do you mean in Prospero burns? or one of the others? I think thats what Hawser calls one of them if memory serves and they find it funny. 

Dont like the wet leopard growls or the leather masks they seem to wear. 
Was kinda hoping for a Brian Blessed type of character in this book too but everyones a bit serious. Though i am enjoying Leman Russ even though it too 75% of the book before we met him.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> Do you mean in Prospero burns? or one of the others? I think thats what Hawser calls one of them if memory serves and they find it funny.
> 
> Dont like the wet leopard growls or the leather masks they seem to wear.
> Was kinda hoping for a Brian Blessed type of character in this book too but everyones a bit serious. Though i am enjoying Leman Russ even though it too 75% of the book before we met him.


Yup, in Prospero Burns. Hawser slips up and calls them Space Wolves, which - I think - gets mixed reactions from them


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I didn't like Prospero Burns, or A Thousand Suns - they were well written, but I don't particularly relate to any of them - the factions don't fit me. Fallen Angels and Battle For Calth are my favourites in the series so far - looking forward to reading something Salamander Based (without Nick Kymes firey fire marines of fiery death by firey fire), or Night Lords based - I've only skimmed the existing Night Lords books, and som the only real history of Night Lords I've got is when they made rams out of Ultramarines in the first McNeil book.

Sorry - slight disregard, but yeah, the only bit I really enjoyed in the Prospero Burns (was the part where they were discussing the roles of the Primarchs' and legions - "What Are the Vlka Fenryka then?" 

"Executioners."


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Battle For Calth


By that do you mean Battle for the Abysmal....?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No, Battle for Calth, as depicting the actual battle for Calth, as in Know No Fear.

Sorry, I completely forget about BftA, it's that shit I don't have any opinion over it, let alone remember it to be a contender for worst book in the Heresy.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Vaz said:


> No, Battle for Calth, as depicting the actual battle for Calth, as in Know No Fear.
> 
> Sorry, I completely forget about BftA, it's that shit I don't have any opinion over it, let alone remember it to be a contender for worst book in the Heresy.


Ah, yes my mistake 

Know No Fear is next on my 'to read' pile, right after I finish with 'Legion of the Damned'.

Battle for the Abysmal is the only book I've not enjoyed at all. All of the books in the HH series have been excellent in my opinion, but even so they have all still had both "meh" and "woah!" moments.


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

For me the difference is that Abnett is a better story writer but King is a Better character writer, Kings characters had alot more depth for me in the first 3 books anyway. but i think Chris Wraight takes the best of both he wrote a great story with some great characters that you really invest yourself in. 

I'm not saying Abnett can't write characters but this book wasn't his best work IMO.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I cannot state how awesome Ultramarines finally became.

Plus, since reading the use of the Shadowsword (I'm presuming it's allied contingent) against a certain daemon, I've still wanted the use of painting one in Legion Colours. Because of that, I want to see how they look.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

To add to this.

The Space Wolves play a pretty big part in DAB's new book, the Emperor's Gift. I think people will be pleasantly surprised at how they are portrayed in that book. Grimnar is a total badda** in it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Cowbellicus said:


> But the second really flipped things into overdrive, particularly in the form of Haegr : a veteran SW who among other things 1.) literally carries around a keg of ale. 2.) is so fat he has specially shaped power armor 3.) picks up people and uses them as improv weapons, in ha-ha pro wrestling fashion. It's like King thought "hmm. How can I overemphasize 'HEY GUYS - THESE ARE SPACE VIKINGS. SERIOUSLY. SPACE. VIKINGS.'" This trivializes them and takes a way some of their zing.


How dare you insult mighty Haegr! 


Anyway though, that is pretty spot on. Good post.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

What exactly separates them? Oh, about 10,000 years.

That's plenty of time for them to change. ADB's and Chris Wraight's later-period stories with the Space Wolves certainly attest to this. They capture the 'wholesome, humanitarian' barbarism of the space wolves, but fuse it with the... seriousness of the legacy Abnett laid down.

In a strange way, tracing the path through _Prospero Burns - Battle of the Fang - Kraken/The Emperor's Gift_, I think there's a very meaty 'metanarrative' to the Space Wolves. They evolve in a very peculiar, very strange way - 40k's Space Wolves are starkly different to Russ' Vylka Fenrica, but on the other hand, modern Space Wolves are arguably a bit more similar to Russ himself. But that's not necessarily a good or praiseworthy thing. Also, the 'other possibilities' are really well explored in _Battle of the Fang_.

For those who've not read it, I recommend _Kraken_ the eshort. Most particularly, it has a few civilians meeting a Space Wolf and, amusingly, having never heard of them. "I wonder if they'll be like the Ultramarines?"


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Wraight's Battle for the Fang were set in M32, rather than M31.

Admittedly, no Leman Russ, but still.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I would like to point out in terms of Will kings Hagr, that IMO he wasnt out of place in the context of wolfblade and was a slightly goofy but good character. It wasnt till Sons of Fenris and Lee Lightner that Hagr got ridiculous. winning against oppenents he shouldnt ahve been able to beat with a slow ass hammer and such. 

Xisor hit it with his post, i like that between the 3 authors they have developped them over 10,000 years. Though i will say that Will Kings interpretation is my favorite,( after wolfblade the books are rubbish) chris wraight is awsome and abnett comes in at an interesting last.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

I think the main difference is that in the books were Leman Russ is in, the space wolfs are mostly made up of poeople not native to Fenris. Most of them having not even lived there for an extended time. While now (as in Logan Grimnar leading them, or since Leman Russ has dissapeared) Most of the Space wolfs if not all were inducted from the tribes on Fenris. I think this leads to them being more sterotypical viking seen in the omnibus' rather then the more cultured non sterotypical viking seen in Prospero Burns and such. Just my personal opinion


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

oOChrisOo said:


> I think the main difference is that in the books were Leman Russ is in, the space wolfs are mostly made up of poeople not native to Fenris. Most of them having not even lived there for an extended time. While now (as in Logan Grimnar leading them, or since Leman Russ has dissapeared) Most of the Space wolfs if not all were inducted from the tribes on Fenris. I think this leads to them being more sterotypical viking seen in the omnibus' rather then the more cultured non sterotypical viking seen in Prospero Burns and such. Just my personal opinion


Which books has them mostly made of Terrans?

_Prospero Burns_ mostly takes place at the end of the GC and the ranks are filled primarily of Fenrisians. They make note that Long Tooth is one of the few remaining Terrans.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think I preferred the Wolves in Battle of the Fang a lot more than their portrayal in Prospero Burns. Abnett writes good humans but when it comes to Marines I think he always does it from a human perspective which doesn't really get a good understanding of them, it's always a third person view.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think I preferred the Wolves in Battle of the Fang a lot more than their portrayal in Prospero Burns. Abnett writes good humans but when it comes to Marines I think he always does it from a human perspective which doesn't really get a good understanding of them, it's always a third person view.


I would argue the opposite. Abnett tends to have marines seen a human point of view to make them more foreign. 

Too many authors portray Space Marines as extra strong humans in power armor. Abnett tends to make them more alien. Which they ought to be. 

Their perspective should be completely different.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah but in every book that I've read where it includes humans and marines, the main narrative is driven by a human with vague parts where you see the marines thoughts, _Prospero Burns_, the rememberancer, _Legion_, Grammaticus.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah but in every book that I've read where it includes humans and marines, the main narrative is driven by a human with vague parts where you see the marines thoughts, _Prospero Burns_, the rememberancer, _Legion_, Grammaticus.


It's for contrast purposes, I think. As I said, it's good we understand that Space Marines aren't "super" human but "post" human.

_Brothers of the Snake_ was written from a Space Marine perspective, though. The contrast was good, but I think the disparity in combat ability between humans, dark eldar, and Space Marine was too far.

A squad shouldn't be able to take on a thousand DE. Though I guess it really matters on what kind of DE it was.

_Void Stalker_ shows that there's an enormous difference between Guardians and their more elite units. Perhaps Dark Eldar have a similar gap.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I agree with *Diatribe1974*, Chris Wraight is the true successor to Bill King and I'm hoping he'll pick up the Ragnar series at some point (We need to see Ragnar come of age... we need someone to redeem that series after Lee Lightner got their hands on it...).

Wraight's Wolves are similar to Abnetts in that they are a lot darker than King's. Battle of the Fang and Kracken are both excellent and yeah *Xisor*, the humans wondering if the Wolves will be similar to Ultramarines is a funny scene, which nicely blends the seriousness of Abnett and the mirth of King. Wraight's Wolves are nice medium.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

As a long term 40k player (since 1989) and space wolves player Im quite dissapointed by the new direction for the wolves, they represented one of the last bastions of old school 40k "fun", Space Vikings drinking their way around the galaxy. 

All of a sudden their pet wolves are their maltransformed brother marines (who previously ended up as servitors) and they all hang around in the dark playing chess whilst wearing gimp masks... All in all I think Lux couldnt have done much more to change the character of the army...

The fact that the new books have shot a massive hole in my home made chapter fluff doesnt help any either


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I'm currently reading the Space Wolf books at the moment, think I'm on the third or fourth one, but I'm not overly keen on them. To me they seem a bit 'Wow, look how boss they are! He's super human!' which is fair enough, but so many times theres references in there that made me think 'oh f*ck off' because it was really cheesey. The fat wolf fella annoyed me too. Big, fat and stupid *sigh*.

Other than that they were decent reads though, enjoyed the stories and they're definately worth the readthough. Preferred Prospero Burns just because it was more how I imagined them, dark and broody rather than bright and shiny.

All good books though


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

TheReverend said:


> I agree with *Diatribe1974*, Chris Wraight is the true successor to Bill King and I'm hoping he'll pick up the Ragnar series at some point (We need to see Ragnar come of age... we need someone to redeem that series after Lee Lightner got their hands on it...).
> 
> Wraight's Wolves are similar to Abnetts in that they are a lot darker than King's. Battle of the Fang and Kracken are both excellent and yeah *Xisor*, the humans wondering if the Wolves will be similar to Ultramarines is a funny scene, which nicely blends the seriousness of Abnett and the mirth of King. Wraight's Wolves are nice medium.


While I didn't dislike Lightner's version of the Wolves as he continued/finished that story arc, I'm not a huge fan either. But I'll take whatever stories I can get with them in it, to be perfectly honest.

Right now, there's really no one singular writer that will probably stick with a single chapter to write a storyline from start to finish, unless they have a deep passion for them (at least for current 40k M41.999 timeline). Of all the current authors out there, would I love to see a new trilogy from Wraight concerning them? Oh hell yeah I would, but he bounces back and forth between WHFB and W40K to much that if we did see a trilogy from him, it'd take 4-5 years to see it completed.


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