# The Arms Race that is Killing 40k



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't know if I am alone, but the fighting in 40k, and the Heresy novels, is turning into an episode of DBZ

The significant beings in 40k are seemingly invincible and to make the story interesting we need other beings seemingly invincible to kill them, and to do this they now have abilities that are starting to be borderline Goku levels.

Not even the battles are starting to make sense. To defeat the enemy army, you have to have the best soldiers with the best strategist all wielding the best equipment. If you know anything about military, sometimes a victory can be just as simple as having the right unit at the right time who exploited a situation the best. 

I like to reference LotR because of how subtle seems to be just as epic. Look at the most treacherous foe, the Witch King. An undead man who rode on the back of a snake bird thing. He didn't shoot fireballs from his ass, his fell beast didn't have laser beams erupting from a unicorn horn. If he had these things, you would need a being who is somehow resistant to laser beams and fireballs or able to dodge them, or you can be cheesy and say LUCKILY the hero got by the lasers and fireballs. 

Instead all it takes is someone with a bit of fire (or a woman) and you can kill/drive them away. It doesn't seem stupid, you don't need the best of the best to do it, it is simple and yet at the same time it is still a daunting task to the reader. You have to have some balls to go up against an undead man on a giant lizard bird, yet technically with a sharp pointy stick it can be done. 

That is what I think 40k is getting away from. No more can a simple soldier with the determination and the right tools defeat a treacherous foe. We will never see a lone space marine armed with a holy sword fight off a greater daemon. He would have to be blessed by the emperor himself, wearing terminator armor and at the moment of the battle be gifted with extra pixy dust, and then he can defeat him.

What do you all think? Am I wrong in thinking this?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not at all, I think you're right. 

It also seems to be very inconsistent. Fall of Damnos for example, Sicarius is able to withstand the deathly grip of a friggin c'tan shard, yet he gets bested in a duel with a simple necron lord...


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

CJay said:


> That is what I think 40k is getting away from. No more can a simple soldier with the determination and the right tools defeat a treacherous foe. We will never see a lone space marine armed with a holy sword fight off a greater daemon. He would have to be blessed by the emperor himself, wearing terminator armor and at the moment of the battle be gifted with extra pixy dust, and then he can defeat him.


One runs the risk of stretching the willing suspension of disbelief otherwise.

My counterargument is that 40k has seldom, if ever, been about the "little man", as it were. Certainly there is much individual bravery to be found from ordinary men and women, but in the grand galactic scheme of things, no ordinary individual in 40k has ever had strength or influence enough to change his fate - usually death in some form or another - or otherwise shape events in the galaxy, or even his own sector. That's why so much attention is paid to "extraordinary" individuals - Space Marines, Inquisitors, high-ranking and inveterate officers, etc. - since they have been gifted with enormous strength and influence enough to shape events and lives around them.

At first glance, the focus on such powerful and nigh-invincible individuals runs counter to the theme of the lack of importance of the individual, but it's also important to remember that most of these individuals _were chosen_, rather than _chose_, to possess such strength and influence. Space Marine Chapters choose their initiates and aspirants from children found to be especially adept in combat, and Inquisitors choose acolytes according to whatever need they have at the time, and choose Interrogators and their successors from among their most skilled and trusted acolytes. None of them got an option to say "no", or at least to say "no" and remain alive. It is ironic that, despite possessing such magnificent influence, such powerful individuals were never masters of their fate to begin with.

Taking the focus off of "ordinary" men and women and instead choosing to focus on these super-powerful individuals actually reinforces two key themes commonplace in 40k: the insignificance of the individual and individual choice in comparison to the survival of the group as a whole and the powerlessness of all men and women to control their own fates. It's this deterministic and nihilistic philosophy that guides much of 40k lore.

Hopefully I wasn't too off the mark there.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I hate the rules arms race, its possibly pushed me out of competive play, not sure yet, and ruins any games against someone who wants to win
I faced a deamon list the other day, his flying horned disk things had a 2+ rerollable invun save, and could vector strike entire units of of the board!
That wasn't even fun, I just sat back the whole game, wasting time trying to shoot these things else I'll look like a dick conceding, which I wanted to do, cos I was wasting my time and it was kind of depressing. Here I think they have this as gw thinks 'well greyknights will rape this, it's fine!' but they forget about every other army who can't even fight it
The riptide was the same, tau have crisis suits, their fine, they don't need to be able to kill entire squads in one turn
Flyers are just stupid, when in tournaments people's armies are basically those, espeacially he'll drakes, you've fucked something gw
The wraith knight, eldar had the wraith lord, which did the things job just fine, but NO, they have to have an even bigger thing which can kill even more stuff
And centurions, we need to kill this thing somehow, and nobody else can, so we'll have this one squad rape anything and everything so it's all cool(it's not!)
And they got the storm raven, they had the storm talon and those dumb new tanks with the unmissable missile or the air rapling guns, AND the storm raven! They had plenty of stuff in the air department then but no, they had to steal the blood angels toy didn't they?!?!
Is thier anything else ive missed? I wish they could just balance armies, not have the newest army being able to win with both hands tied behind his back, then have the next on be able to beat that, it's just not cool gw !


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

@kiro the avenger! it's the old same story. I feel bad that now it seems this trend is passing down to black library aswell. I've come to accept that any army has to be "shinier" the the last but regarding fluff novels...what the heck!
I guess its easier to write about a goku style fight than a "machiavelli" style battle of intelligence.
We should also consider the sheer amount of pages black library churns out! They need cash flow. this means lots of stuff, on a regular basis. A good plot is not going to happen once in a month. maybe once in a year. So the writers are obviously lacking good ways to keep our interest on. A good fight is the best investment. (but it stinks if EVERYBODY is goku)


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> I hate the rules arms race, its possibly pushed me out of competive play, not sure yet, and ruins any games against someone who wants to win
> I faced a deamon list the other day, his flying horned disk things had a 2+ rerollable invun save, and could vector strike entire units of of the board!
> That wasn't even fun, I just sat back the whole game, wasting time trying to shoot these things else I'll look like a dick conceding, which I wanted to do, cos I was wasting my time and it was kind of depressing. Here I think they have this as gw thinks 'well greyknights will rape this, it's fine!' but they forget about every other army who can't even fight it
> The riptide was the same, tau have crisis suits, their fine, they don't need to be able to kill entire squads in one turn
> ...


Kiro I think this thread was aimed mostly at the fluff as opposed to tabletop


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

CJay said:


> I don't know if I am alone, but the fighting in 40k, and the Heresy novels, is turning into an episode of DBZ
> 
> The significant beings in 40k are seemingly invincible and to make the story interesting we need other beings seemingly invincible to kill them, and to do this they now have abilities that are starting to be borderline Goku levels.
> 
> ...


A dynamic I've appreciated in the Inquisitor novels is the focus on the personal experience, with a small team working with a leader who may have a lot of power backing them up, or not. I do think there are still plenty of epic fights with individual characters defeating the odds, but then the opponent has his 50,000,000 buddies behind him. After that, the heroic deed becomes fodder for the meatgrinder.

As a LOTR fan, I will say there was only one person who could stand up to the Witch King of Angmar, and everyone else who tried, died. This includes the 40K version of Chapter Masters, Chief Librarians, and entire Astares squads. The defining moment of the Witch King's death is a Silent Sister, so to speak, stood over her fallen Chapter Master and defied the odds... I do think it was a cheap shot in that she was the ONLY one ever destined to defeat him and was in the family of a king, yadda, yadda. I certinaly think that Tolkien was focused too much on destiny and if you were in the great unwashed then you were no more than cannon fodder.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I know this is fluff orientated but I thought I would make that point, then got carried away I guess
But yeah, 40K defiantly not the single soldiers game, it's about titanic armies fighting on some backwater world somewhere just for the point it makes...
And on huge duals from masters of war, as that chapter master fights the bloodthirster solo as his brothers fights the hordes all around.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Not at all, I think you're right.
> 
> It also seems to be very inconsistent. Fall of Damnos for example, Sicarius is able to withstand the deathly grip of a friggin c'tan shard, yet he gets bested in a duel with a simple necron lord...


I wouldn't call a chaos lord simple, they have at least the clone war cartoon strength of grievous. 

Things can get lucky.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

CJay said:


> No more can a simple soldier with the determination and the right tools defeat a treacherous foe.


Ciaphus Cain, anyone?


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Loli said:


> Kiro I think this thread was aimed mostly at the fluff as opposed to tabletop


Weirdly enough, he took it where I thought it was going. Maybe I haven't read enough fluff :laugh:

Kiro - I feel you man. It bites, it really does, that every army is getting bigger and better for less and it's often hard to keep up, even if you play those armies. It's all about marketing, but we can get around that. My solution is simple: screw the system, stay with a group of assault marines, some fast tanks, and then get in close and evade that riptide blasts as best as I can (I don't think it's ever made it's points back against me). 2+ rerollable? Well, kill it with numbers. An assault squad dished out 30 attacks on the charge. Not great, only like 0.5-1 missed saves, but does it go away after one use? Or just Baal it to death (10 s5/6 shots will kill stuff man). It bites, but we can get past this.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Ciaphus Cain, anyone?


I liked Caiphus Cain, but he suffers the same fate as Gaunt's Ghosts. They are only imperial guard so the writing was specifically designed so that the characters will only come up against and fight characters that are realistically in their reach of killing.

Caiphus and Gaunts ghosts will never take down some greater demon or a necron lord etc. 

Just to add a note here, a bit off topic.

Is this a growing trend here for scifi/fantasy? 
You have popular tv shows/movies where the only way a villian can be defeated is if the hero becomes just as powerful. We have the typical super hero shows where the good guys have to be able to match the enemy in strength as usual or by teaming up and by combining become just as powerful, then you have very popular anime series like DBZ where the character trains and ups his strength and is now able to blow up a planet.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Cain has taken on demons, chaos marines, Ork warlords, a genestealer patriarch(granted Jurgen did the deed there), survived a stint on a tomb world, never mind the various little missions he seems to have carried out for the Inquisition. That's not exactly writing about enemies that suit the skills of a mere IG commissar.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

CJay said:


> I liked Caiphus Cain, but he suffers the same fate as Gaunt's Ghosts. They are only imperial guard so the writing was specifically designed so that the characters will only come up against and fight characters that are realistically in their reach of killing.
> 
> Caiphus and Gaunts ghosts will never take down some greater demon or a necron lord etc.
> 
> ...


I like to call this the Hulk effect, essentially a character that cannot be killed. The more you hit him, the more bad ass he becomes.

I don't think you can blame Workshop for having fluff about super human characters who have the best stuff to kill the biggest bad ass enemies, it's what people want. If you want stories about the little man doing things read Bernard Cornwell or something similar. The whole point of the grim dark is that you can't do anything as one person. Sure there are exceptions to the rule like Gaunt and Cain, and to be honest, they make the best books. This isn't a new trend for black library, they've always done that, space marines by their very nature are the best of the best, sir, with honours!

All I'm saying is you have to have realistic expectations on the type of genre that you're reading.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Midnight


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

CJay said:


> Just to add a note here, a bit off topic.
> 
> Is this a growing trend here for scifi/fantasy?
> You have popular tv shows/movies where the only way a villian can be defeated is if the hero becomes just as powerful. We have the typical super hero shows where the good guys have to be able to match the enemy in strength as usual or by teaming up and by combining become just as powerful, then you have very popular anime series like DBZ where the character trains and ups his strength and is now able to blow up a planet.


This factor you've observed is one of the main attractions for the TV series Game of Thrones, or it's even better book-form A Song of Ice & Fire. Even the biggest baddest characters can get taken down for no better reason than they were looking the wrong way at the wrong time.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.

Cain survived those encounters he didn't kick their asses. 

Space marines are the best of the best, but now a single space marine isn't good enough compared to some figures. Even with being genetically superior with the best weapons against something like a big tyranid, they are screwed.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

CJay said:


> Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.
> 
> Cain survived those encounters he didn't kick their asses.
> 
> Space marines are the best of the best, but now a single space marine isn't good enough compared to some figures. Even with being genetically superior with the best weapons against something like a big tyranid, they are screwed.


As for Martin's work- your opinion's your own, but the outstanding sales and popularity seem to argue with you. Personally, I think his work is great.

Cain- surviving those encounters is pretty damn kickass. Most people wouldn't be able to run far enough to piss their pants before they were dead, and he fought on and killed the enemy. For enemies that powerful, surviving with them dead is kicking their ass.

I think the whole thread has a point, if you make all the enemies too ridiculous it can be a problem. But in a world whose own writers say is just a story of how the Imperium slowly dies and fails, it makes sense to have enemies that can crush humanity, and do. It also makes sense for space marines and other such servants of the Imperium to do their duty and fight these threats. And finally, it absolutely makes sense that they succeed sometimes, despite the odds.

Not saying there isn't any fault within the entire spectrum of 40k fluff, but the large majority I've seen isn't a walking Mary Sue collection.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

CJay said:


> Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where.


The vast majority of, well, the world, tend to disagree with you, me included. I will agree that he has got bogged down in the last book or two, but the way he keeps lopping off the heads of major characters at random will keep me reading.



> I hope he dies before he finishes the series.


That happened to Robert Jordan and his Wheel of Time series. Some would say Martin is painting himself into the same corner as Jordan did with a too big, too sprawling story that he just lost control of, but if he does drop off (a distinct possibility seeing as he's an overweight old man) I'm reassured that Brandon Sanderson is waiting in the wings to possibly finish it off like he did with WoT.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

I think there are two issues being discussed here:

1) That the overall power level of 40K is too high. This, I tend to disagree with, as I personally see ridiculous power levels as part of the appeal of 40K, especially when they're executed in interesting ways. Besides, it's relative strength that matters.

2) That BL books' final battles are decided by brute force and not trickiness. Honestly haven't thought about this, so don't know how much of an issue this is, but that seems to be the heart of the criticism.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

CJay said:


> Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.


So tell me how you really feel, don't sugar coat it. :laugh:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Blackadder, anyone?


Fixed that for you :wink:


I think he would be an awesome Commissar! :laugh:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

CJay said:


> Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.
> 
> Cain survived those encounters he didn't kick their asses.
> 
> Space marines are the best of the best, but now a single space marine isn't good enough compared to some figures. Even with being genetically superior with the best weapons against something like a big tyranid, they are screwed.


So it's becoming increasingly apparently that you know fuck all about 40K.

Space marines are super soldiers they are no where near the best of the best.

Genestealers destroy them
Necron warriors weapons are more than capable of wiping them.
the tau are more then capable of beating them.
Plenty of astartes die to eldar as well.
Orks are also more than capable of wiping astartes as well.

They win because of they can shoot straighter and hit first allot of times. But other than that they die. Because they don't fight smart. Nearly every space marine novel goes like this.

Bad guys appear,
space marines respond,
fight to a standstill
war begins to turn against them.
war turns in their favor due to a wildcard.
war is won by a tactical strike.


Cain never charges into battle alone, he always ensures he has troops around him. He also chooses his engagements and he always tries to find a way out.

In the greater good cain dropped his weapons when confronted by that battlesuit. A space marine would never have done that.
It in turn caused the tau and the imperium to gain a truce.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> So it's becoming increasingly apparently that you know fuck all about 40K.
> 
> Space marines are super soldiers they are no where near the best of the best.
> 
> ...


Wow someone just became a child.

I'd like to fire back with some inappropriate nonsense about your knowledge of a fake universe, but really I don't care enough. 

Last post about Martins popularity: 50 shades of grey was also a highly successful book series too, doesn't mean it isn't literary crap and it doesn't mean the masses are right.

Back on the titled subject. I just don't care to see the primarchs or any other character for that matter, going super saiyan to best their foe. Shooting energy blasts that can kill entire squads just because it is cool.

I see it now, the rematch between Sang and Ka'Bandha. The fighting is brutal, neither seems to be gaining the upper hand, then Sang taps into his innermost fury his radiance shining as the energy that empowers the emperor flows through him, and his hair turns all spikey and Ka is now as weak as a child, the pure wrath coming from the Saiy-I mean primarch can not be matched, and he breaks the daemons back.

That could happen...I'd even put $5 that something very similar to that happens, no bullshit.

I don't want that. I hope when writing the Battle of Tera, and all 40k novels, our authors have more creative ingenuity than our beloved characters gaining extra pixy powers.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The primarchs were created with warp energy stolen from the chaos gods. These random feats of heroism make sense for them, and even then aren't exactly commonplace. 

Bear in mind that in most cases the primarchs had an army at their backs. 

Also a genetic super soldier fueled by god juice managing to beat a greater daemon isn't exactly a stretch of the imagination, especially since well equipped marines can do that now (grey knights, in case you didn't make the connection).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

CJay said:


> Wow someone just became a child.
> 
> I'd like to fire back with some inappropriate nonsense about your knowledge of a fake universe, but really I don't care enough.
> 
> ...


There's two kinds of sci fi.

The happy everyone gets along star trek where only useless characters die, or grimdark where anyone can die.

You're trying to adapt 40K to what your limited mind can comprehend.

Almost all of the characters who hulked out to do something awesome were in fact warp related,

I will say it again, read the books and pay attention this time. Everything cain defeated was warp related and most of the time jurgen showed up.

World eaters, one was wounded and the other one was arrogant, jurgen ended both of them.
Daemon jurgen was there,
necron pariahs jurgen
partriach jurgen
psykers jurgen was there.

We're dealing with events that happen in a galaxy thus powers have to increase it's fine for on earth people to have the strength of conan but in a galactic setting it doesn't work.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Stop with the mud-slinging guys, please.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> There's two kinds of sci fi.
> 
> The happy everyone gets along star trek where only useless characters die, or grimdark where anyone can die.
> 
> ...



Haah I've been reading these novels longer than you. Loook at our join dates. 

Seriously no moderators going to reprimand this troll for his comments? He is clearly 12


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Last time folks. STOP BICKERING!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> Haah I've been reading these novels longer than you. Loook at our join dates.
> 
> Seriously no moderators going to reprimand this troll for his comments? He is clearly 12


Having a different opinion or understanding to you isn't trolling. Seriously, you're dragging this on as much as he is. 

Like Deathklokk says, maybe you should both get over it? :crazy:


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

CJay said:


> Haah I've been reading these novels longer than you. Loook at our join dates.
> 
> Seriously no moderators going to reprimand this troll for his comments? He is clearly 12


What kind of fucked up logic is that? Because you joined before him you have been reading longer? Christ well if that's the case YOU'RE BOTH WRONG I'm right simply because I've been here longer. That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Loli said:


> What kind of fucked up logic is that? Because you joined before him you have been reading longer? Christ well if that's the case YOU'RE BOTH WRONG I'm right simply because I've been here longer. That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read.


Like the mods said ignore him, if he has to resort to personal attacks he knows I'm right.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Why are you guys continuing this? Get back on topic or stop posting.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

One thing I would like to point out concerning power levels is that 30k and the Horus Heresy really is supposed to be an "age of legends" of sorts; Primarchs and Space Marines seems super-powerful specifically because, ten thousand years later, the Imperium has little that can match their might. The Primarchs and the (loyalist) Space Marine Legions are gone; the Emperor is stuck on the Golden Throne; all the magnificent technologies of the Great Crusade are lost, or otherwise extremely rare and misunderstood; and while the Space Marine Chapters still command considerable clout, the age of superhuman leadership is over. I'll let Ahriman explain it for me:



Ahriman (White Dwarf 275 said:


> And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing, and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.


If 30k and the Horus Heresy is beginning to seem DBZ-esque, then it's probably because 40k, which is already filled with notable feats of heroism, must look mundane by comparison.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

There's also an aspect of this which relates to the English language. The authors, in stoking those stories and trying to put details on previously vague legends runs into a limit.

The authors are forced to make everything bigger and bigger and bigger. Eventually they are just stacking up superlatives. 

The must horrible thing versus the biggest villain in the most extreme . . . blah blah blah. 

When everyone goes to 11 all you get is noise.

It adds up to battle story fatigue.

And I suspect to a degree it is necessary because the authors don't want to try and sell a story about the wimpy bookish primarch or the sensitive nature loving primarch.

When producing for fanboys they don't want to be in the position of trying to sell, "in the grim darkness, of the backstory, to the current setting, in the far future; there is only boltguns, new age music, water colours, oh, and war. Lots of war."

The customers would like that even less.


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## lokyar (Apr 24, 2011)

holt shit, this turned into a cat-fight fast
also dont act like this, its childish:


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Yeah I guess when the primarchs are supposed to be the great legends, I guess it is ok.

This was supposed to be a quick yes or no, if you thought 40k was getting to over powered, We are currently split on the issue, and most people that play the game agree the arms race is getting a bit out of hand. 

Well this was a different thread other than the usual who could beat up who.


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