# Allies in the new edition



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Having bought the latest White Dwarf earlier today as well as ordering the rulebook for 6th edition, I noticed with considerable delight that you can now take allies. How much of an army can be allies I'm not sure though it works out at about 30% with the armies used in the first battle report. Anyway what I'm thinking here is that this will completely change the game as more unique armies become the norm. 

The tournament scene in particular will be affected as people strive to come up with the most competitive combo they can think of. Therefore I want to know what other people think about this.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Really loving this allies feature. Will be throwing my Grey Knights into my Imperial Guard force to provide that spear tip punch before the hammer blow.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Could do a proper Alpha Legion or Fallen Angel army now using a combo of traitor guard and chaos marines, so many possibilities, but I feel some will exploit it.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

I guess it would allow you to add deathstars in from other codices (TH/SS Termies in a land raider?) to go with another army (in my case IG). The allies can then plug the inbuilt weaknesses of each race (CC, Ranged Support, Armour). Great opportunity for people to expand their model collections (but short of collecting the whole army) and add it into the main body of their force. Also allows for some perhaps semi-broken options (like the 12 GKTs in Inquisitorial Valkyries of yesteryear) and combos. Problem is - what do all the alliances and fortifications do for the cores of your armies? Probably is exclusive to larger games than a 500pt battleforce bash (and 1500pt lists - less boyz, more toyz approach).


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Maybe its a max of 1 ally per FOC slot?


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

I've been considering making Tyranids my second army for a while. With allies I can buy one kit at a time and still field them with my current army, rather than wait until I get enough. I see no reason why Dark Eldar could not have captured Tyranids in their army. Wyches, especially Beast Masters could prod them into battle or the Hamonculi could inject chemicals to control them.

I'm sure Space Wolves will enjoy having Leman Russ tanks again. Guard will have some close combat support with a squad of Marines or two. And all you Blood Angel/Necron fans should be quite happy.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Pandora said:


> I've been considering making Tyranids my second army for a while. With allies I can buy one kit at a time and still field them with my current army, rather than wait until I get enough. I see no reason why Dark Eldar could not have captured Tyranids in their army. Wyches, especially Beast Masters could prod them into battle or the Hamonculi could inject chemicals to control them.
> 
> I'm sure Space Wolves will enjoy having Leman Russ tanks again. Guard will have some close combat support with a squad of Marines or two. And all you Blood Angel/Necron fans should be quite happy.


Tyranids dont get any allies apparently according tothe GW site. 

Also, i happen to have BA & Necrons and now i'm perfectly allowed to field the two togeter! Haha


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

im going to be adding some deathwing allies to my IG for some nice termi goodness


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Who will be the first to field a Blood Angels & Necrons force to live the Matt Ward fluff dream?


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Who will be the first to field a Blood Angels & Necrons force to live the Matt Ward fluff dream?


Me me me!


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

pantat said:


> Me me me!


Heretic!


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

That's hilarious!


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm really wary of the allies rules. There is the potential for some really powerful combinations. We all know that GW pushes the game as a casual bit of fun and allies are fine in that context, adding some extra flavour or fluff to your army. 

In a competitive situation such as tournaments however such considerations go out the window. You play to win and expect everyone else to do the same. Quite what combinations the best tournament minds are going to be able to think up makes me nervous. 

Now this is pure speculation (but not an impossibility given GW's often poorly worded and thought out rules) but what if you can an allied detachment but take it from your own codex, in an effort to circumvent the force organisation chart. Can you imagine a Space Wolve's army that can suddenly take 6 Long Fangs, or 9? Obviously we don't know if it's possible but given GW's track record in rules it's not something you can dismiss out of hand.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Rems said:


> I'm really wary of the allies rules. There is the potential for some really powerful combinations. We all know that GW pushes the game as a casual bit of fun and allies are fine in that context, adding some extra flavour or fluff to your army.
> 
> In a competitive situation such as tournaments however such considerations go out the window. You play to win and expect everyone else to do the same. Quite what combinations the best tournament minds are going to be able to think up makes me nervous.
> 
> Now this is pure speculation (but not an impossibility given GW's often poorly worded and thought out rules) but what if you can an allied detachment but take it from your own codex, in an effort to circumvent the force organisation chart. Can you imagine a Space Wolve's army that can suddenly take 6 Long Fangs, or 9? Obviously we don't know if it's possible but given GW's track record in rules it's not something you can dismiss out of hand.


Current rumours say you must have one troops and one HQ, then you get one of each other slot available for allies, so it can't be used for too much spam. However, I haven't heard anything to suggest that you can't ally with yourself to get extra slots... We'll have to wait and see on that one.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Who will be the first to field a Blood Angels & Necrons force to live the Matt Ward fluff dream?


I can hardly imagine a necron army which doesn't include blood angels. Blood angels effective eliminate all the weaknesses of the necron codex.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Eleven said:


> I can hardly imagine a necron army which doesn't include blood angels. Blood angels effective eliminate all the weaknesses of the necron codex.


I might pick up some pretorians as with blood angels rules they will actually be good.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Hmmm....If rumors are true about the Ultrasmurfs being tasked with the protection of the Tau, It could lead to some interesting gameplay.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Brilliant.
One ally union that actually makes sense fluffwise is Imperial Guard & Tyranids to create a Genestealer Cult.
And they've said no to it already...

Ten out of ten Games Workshop! 
Go to the top of the class!


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## Thecrash20 (May 13, 2012)

I wish orks and tyranids could be allies. I mean orks just put a giant peace of meat on the ground over a net then capture it, orks rig a seat on a carnifex and now know as a Dakkafex.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

I will continue to field Vanilla Marines only. I'm not branching out.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Hmm. I have Salamanders and Orks. I don't see an alliance happening. Does anyone have access to the list? The GW site is lagging something fierce. I'm just curious who the Orks could ally with? (I'm figuring my Sallies will stick with Imperial forces for the most part.)


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

After some fluffy input I guess my Crimson Fists could ally with some Black Templars. But, not likely to happen anytime soon due to costs of 'dex and more minis.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

"Your proposal is an insult. My purpose so far transcends your own you cannot even imagine it. You hurl yourselves at an unending tide, struggling futilely against the sea as you drown beneath it, then you seek the allegiance of the waves that smash your broken bodies against the rocks. Your promises are as meaningless as your struggle. I offer you only this: Avoid crossing my path, and you will be spared, for the simple fact I do not care enough about your miserable existence to seek you out and wipe you from the galaxy. Be gone, vermin."

_-The Wishmaster, via electronic communication to Governor Hyborus upon receiving the proposal of alliance against the forces of Chaos_

I think that sums my opinion of allies up nicely.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

I'll be collecting IG once I'm happy with my Necrons. It will allow me to field them with my Imperial Fists from time to time. I may even be able to model them so they can act as traitor guard as well, then I can collect chaos marines to pair that way.

My brain is starting to think of all these "linking allies" chains. Vanilla marines to IG/traitor IG to chaos marines to demons...


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

If only we could take CSM and Crons...


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

Thecrash20 said:


> I wish orks and tyranids could be allies. I mean orks just put a giant peace of meat on the ground over a net then capture it, orks rig a seat on a carnifex and now know as a Dakkafex.


 Or Stompafex, if it's a bio-Titan. If people could let you do this I will really enjoy having 3 shot rapid fire, with Lash, Vorpal strike and that hammer from the sky. D3+2 S6 AP2, 60 Flayers and 6 prince attacks. hahahahaha


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

You gotta admit, allies are a shrewd financial move on GWs part! I for one will actually bother to make an effort to extend my necrons and eldar now, whereas i was thinking that roughly £350 to get them to 2.5k was just mot worth it. Now i only really need around 1k to have them used as allies with my BA. Clever GW. Also it does make it more fun and harder to predict what an opponent will field. Tactically this makesthe game a lot less stagnant and makes for what could e a refreshing change. I often play the same people and games have *almost* got to the point of being repetitve. Now... They won't!


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Pssyche said:


> Brilliant.
> One ally union that actually makes sense fluffwise is Imperial Guard & Tyranids to create a Genestealer Cult.
> And they've said no to it already...
> 
> ...





Thecrash20 said:


> I wish orks and tyranids could be allies. I mean orks just put a giant peace of meat on the ground over a net then capture it, orks rig a seat on a carnifex and now know as a Dakkafex.


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

pantat said:


> Tyranids dont get any allies apparently according tothe GW site.


I believe you misunderstand me. I will not be fielding Tyranids with allies. I will be fielding Dark Eldar with a Tyranid detachment. It is a subtle difference. I take Tyranids not getting allies to mean that nobody would fight with the Tyranids to achieve the Tyranids' goals. But several races could capture or coerce Tyranids into fighting in a place that benefitts them. The Fluff supports Imperium sending Tyranids to kill Orks, Genestealer Cults and Dark Eldar attracting Tyranids to an Imperium world both for military gain and to feed off all the suffering.



maddermax said:


> Current rumours say you must have one troops and one HQ, then you get one of each other slot available for allies, so it can't be used for too much spam. However, I haven't heard anything to suggest that you can't ally with yourself to get extra slots... We'll have to wait and see on that one.


Even with just taking one HQ and one Troop from some armies and adding them to others could be a big help. I can see IG or even basic Marines adding Blood Angels for accurately deepstriking Melta available.



Eleven said:


> I might pick up some pretorians as with blood angels rules they will actually be good.


You're assuming that allies will share army wide rules. I cannot see Descent of Angels being shared with an ally detachment. Now something like the benefitts of a Sanguinary Priest would probably benefit the allies if they are in range as it's an area affect, not a blanket army rule.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

I'm guessing sanguinary priest wouldnt benefit praetorians due to the level of their (probably) alliance. They might affect space marines allies perhaps though. 

Also it appears as if nothing (without actually looking at te rulebook yet) can even take tyranids as a detachment


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

no, nothing can officialy, however in friendly games i suspect people will anyway


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

khrone forever said:


> no, nothing can officialy, however in friendly games i suspect people will anyway


Of course.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Hmmm sweet - means that I can make a Tyrants Legion army that actually works. Although that squad of Retaliators now need their storm shields removing... And I've just finished painting the shields separately.


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## UselesswizarD (Oct 26, 2009)

Pandora said:


> I believe you misunderstand me. I will not be fielding Tyranids with allies. I will be fielding Dark Eldar with a Tyranid detachment. It is a subtle difference. I take Tyranids not getting allies to mean that nobody would fight with the Tyranids to achieve the Tyranids' goals. But several races could capture or coerce Tyranids into fighting in a place that benefitts them. The Fluff supports Imperium sending Tyranids to kill Orks, Genestealer Cults and Dark Eldar attracting Tyranids to an Imperium world both for military gain and to feed off all the suffering.


GW page detailing exactly who can ally with who.

No one can have tyranids as allies and nids cannot have allies.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...=11&aId=22400024a&start=12&multiPageMode=true


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...=10&aId=22400024a&start=11&multiPageMode=true

Chaos Space Marines + Necrons

Um. No. This doesn't work.

In fact, a lot of those combos don't work.

Necrons + GK
Necrons + Black Templars
Necrons + Tau

GK and BT would never work with xenos. Necrons would never work with Tau. This isn't working.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Stay in that box there IA.

It's only as unworkable as you choose to make it.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

By the look of it, Necrons can take GK as allies... That opens up so many possibilities. At last Necrons gain access to Psykers; lots of them!


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

hmm Eldar allieing with dark eldar now thats just plain nutty :shok: :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's a fine line between Dark Eldar and Eldar, its why Harlequins will fight for both sides. They are both trying to avoid their inevitable doom but doing it from opposite ends.


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

UselesswizarD said:


> GW page detailing exactly who can ally with who.
> 
> No one can have tyranids as allies and nids cannot have allies.
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...=11&aId=22400024a&start=12&multiPageMode=true


Well, that's unfortunate. Somebody want to explain why Grey Knights can ally with almost everything? I'm sure the advancing fluff will cover it, but it doesn't sit right. There are examples of Dark Eldar working with our misguided kin. We did save Iyanden and they still amuse us. But I would have thought the Tau would have learned something from Rubikon.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Love people saying "Armies will be more unique".

No they won't, they'll be more homogenous.

Example: Imperial Guard are great at shooting and crap at combat. Ergo they will always take a combat unit from an allied list. The specific unit will change between players, but the use that unit is put to (counter assault) will be exactly the same.

Every army will have fast units, psykers, shooting units, combat units, heavy armour etc etc. Whatever fills the gap in their codex, that's what they'll take.

People will find the most synergy between books and just use the same units over and over again. The cry of "IG + GK" has already been taken up.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Exactly. Being able to plug the gaps makes every codex basically the same. People are going to cover for their weaknesses, and everyone in the game will run essentially the same army. Why would I not just take terminators as my allies to cover my inherent CC weaknesses, or a psyflenaut to compensate for my lack of long-ranged anti-tank? WHy would I not take these things _every single time?_ Why would other Necron players not take them every time? Its watering down the codex and frankly its going to make the game boring because everyone is going to run the same thing. Right now, the fluff is all that's keeping me in 40k, and its not even GW's fluff, its my own. That is rapidly becoming not enough of a reason however.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

If all you're gonna do is piss and moan finding something else probably the best course of action. Honestly the new rules allow you to do some extra things with allies, if you don't want to do them then don't. I don't get all the fuss. The rules to include allies are optional.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Because we already have allies. Its called "doubles".

And the complaints are because this isn't just a "Fun new feature with minimal competitive value", this has the potential to be severely broken. Can you imagine Necrons with FNP? An armor save, a FNP save, then finally an RP roll? Allies are going to be the new Mech- You can choose not to if you like, but if you don't, be prepared to lose 80% of your battles simply because of how points-effective it is. I'm pretty sick of having my tactical choices no longer being multi-faceted but instead being "Do you want to win? Do X. Do you want to lose? Do something other than X."


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

The FNP buff from sang priests probably wont affect necrons cus of alliance level or other things. Dont forget you wont just be able to pick a unit if terminators without also picking the compulsory 1 hq and 1 troop too. So thats a minum of 175 points before the cost of the termies. Sure might be worth it for the termies alone but that captain and scout (for 175 pts) could be put to better use in the codex. I for one am actually quite excited bout this edition and look forward to mixing and matching and playing a more tactical game


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

FnP has been watered down, and I am betting that none of their 'Allies' will be friendly to the point that they could get those unit buffs from them. There is so many other things that are altering this game, that you can not compare what was to what is.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

scscofield said:


> FnP has been watered down, and I am betting that none of their 'Allies' will be friendly to the point that they could get those unit buffs from them. There is so many other things that are altering this game, that you can not compare what was to what is.


The wording seems to imply that it works on power weapons now, which is actually a buff. Not on instant death tho


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I severly doubt codex-only special rules will apply to allies. They never did in the Witch Hunters or Daemon Hunters codeces, and those were built to ally. 

For my part, I'm happy allies are back in. I designed my IG forces to be part of my Sisters army: as a standalone force they're fairly rubbish, as I just picked things that would look good as dinosaurs. :wink:

I'm also glad that it appears that my 'nids can't ally with anyone (except maybe other 'nids). No plugging their anti-tank weaknesses with lascannons. I *like* having trouble with tanks. And now maybe more people will like Harpies and Carnifexes like I do. :biggrin: No halving their attacks to get S10.., and they have frag grenades and AP2 shooting, and the only big thing that can instakill T4 without forking out for implant attack...


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm interested in facing Allied armies but I doubt I'll be doing it myself. I play Space Wolves and Blood Angels, my BA are DoA so adding allies will hinder that play-style and my Wolves lists are so fine tuned now it'd be a hinderence taking anything away to add an Ally.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Bayonet said:


> I'm interested in facing Allied armies but I doubt I'll be doing it myself. I play Space Wolves and Blood Angels, my BA are DoA so adding allies will hinder that play-style and my Wolves lists are so fine tuned now it'd be a hinderence taking anything away to add an Ally.


They might be finely tuned now... But that could all change!


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

pantat said:


> They might be finely tuned now... But that could all change!



Very true, I run big Grey Hunter packs, lots of them in Rhinos, lots of ranged fire support from Long Fang packs and a deathstar unit and playing pretty much at 2k. At the moment I just can't see anything that would add to capability as I rely on my large amounts of hard hitting Troops rather than anything fancy or gimmicky.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Because we already have allies. Its called "doubles".
> 
> And the complaints are because this isn't just a "Fun new feature with minimal competitive value", this has the potential to be severely broken. Can you imagine Necrons with FNP? An armor save, a FNP save, then finally an RP roll? Allies are going to be the new Mech- You can choose not to if you like, but if you don't, be prepared to lose 80% of your battles simply because of how points-effective it is. I'm pretty sick of having my tactical choices no longer being multi-faceted but instead being "Do you want to win? Do X. Do you want to lose? Do something other than X."


 So don't play allies, stick with "if you don't have mech you lose", really it's just another dimension to the game which can only be good.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Ally matrix link: http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Brindleysa/Dork%20Stuff-%20Fun%20Stuff/matrix.jpg

From http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/c...g_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/?limit=500

u can take an allied detachment or something. must have 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and may have 1 more troop and 1 of each other slot except HQ. there is a table of who can ally with who and how good friends they are. good friends can join each others unit with independent chars and cast physic powers as if they were friendly. middle friends cant do that. and bad friends have to roll at the begging of each turn if they are withing 6, if they roll a 1 they cant do anything. and a lot of armies can ally at all. nids cant ally with anyone. 

It won't be as wafflestomp as implied I think, there is some nice combos but they have limited the psychic buffing insanity that could have happened.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> but I feel some will exploit it.


As has ever been the case......


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Well it seems as with any development that we have those who are enthusiastic and those who are sceptical. Personally I like the idea even if it is a money spinner simply because it means more of my collection is likely to see use on the table. As for the fears that armies will become more homogenous, given the number of Space Marine armies in the game that have retained a distinct identity despite it seeming like every other person playing 40k has one, I think we can be certain that heterogenity will remain a feature of 40k armies.


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Ally matrix link: http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/Brindleysa/Dork%20Stuff-%20Fun%20Stuff/matrix.jpg
> 
> From http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/c...g_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/?limit=500
> 
> ...



LOL. Black Templars and Sisters of Battle would be an unholy alliance. So Unholy Alliance would be the Allies of Convenience who recieve no benefit from being with your army other than your army won't be killing them. Blood Angels cannot share FNP except with most other Imperium forces. It would seem they only grudgingly work with Sisters too.


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## Crow Splat (Mar 28, 2012)

Well first thing I thought was Epidemius just got better. I was planning to build nurgle daemons and death guard. Now i can do both at the same time.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

I think instead of worrying that people will trailer their lists etc we should be looking at the amazing modelling and converting possibilities here. People will be able to make a really unique looking army. Bringing attention back to the modelling side of war hammer. Not just the I have to win at all costs mentality that some people have.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

I am the only one at my flgs that is looking forward to 6th. All the older vets are already saying they are quitting before they even look at the rules.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

ARMYguy said:


> I am the only one at my flgs that is looking forward to 6th. All the older vets are already saying they are quitting before they even look at the rules.


You get that with every edition change. Come back in 3 weeks and tell us how many of them actually left. I'm betting they said it before every edition, all the way back to RT...


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

That could be true, I started only a year ago so i am still new compared to most of the people where i play. I bet you are right


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

The Gunslinger said:


> I think instead of worrying that people will trailer their lists etc we should be looking at the amazing modelling and converting possibilities here. People will be able to make a really unique looking army. Bringing attention back to the modelling side of war hammer. Not just the I have to win at all costs mentality that some people have.


That is a very good point. I could see somebody who has Orks and IG converting in interesting ways. Either by making it look like the Orks were supplied with Imperium tech or that the IG are abandoned humans "taken in" by an Ork klan. The latter seems less likely, but surely Catachans could impress an Ork. But yes, the task of making the allied armies look cohesive could be pretty cool.



ARMYguy said:


> I am the only one at my flgs that is looking forward to 6th. All the older vets are already saying they are quitting before they even look at the rules.


A lot of us at my gaming store said we would keep playing 5th for a while. But I have actually become pretty excited for 6th based on the WD. But I can keep playing 5th while learning the new rules if that's what it takes.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Tau and Human auxiliaries.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Tau and Human auxiliaries.


That's what I'm thinking


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> I'm betting they said it before every edition, all the way back to RT...


It is true; they are not a proper quitters unless they were there for the "Rogue Trader is going to be everything that is bad about the absence of a 40K rule set without fixing this specific outlying problem" debate.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I know I will be really happy when 6th ed drops! I was looking at starting a SM army to try power armor for once, but not I dont need to drop 500 bucks to get a good starting set(I like to have 1500 points with some subs right off the bat). I think I may snag some BAs and then maybe some wolves so I can play around with diffrent SM allies. I may only get 500 points of a few armies to go with my IG. That being said, I still want more tanks, and with flyers we are all going to have to sink points into AA units. I can see alot of people taking IG to get access to the Hydra Squads.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

I thought when you take an ally you can only choose from the generic battle force and the HQ listed on the GW site. If anyone that has IG can take all their tanks or whatever for allied units, that seems really kinda... bad. I dont want to see hydras all over every single time i play a game, unless they are my own lol


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It is 1 hq, 1 troop required, then you can take another troop, a fast attack, a elite, and a heavy support slot. Just one of each besides the 2 troop. IG has squadrons so you could take a 3 tank squadron of hydra's but that would be it.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Guess we will be seeing tons of hydras now then.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Depends on the size of your local groups wallets, IG tank spam isnt cheap. I wouldn't mind adding some to my SW but yeah.... lots of cash there.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Well that depends. legit hydras are expensive off FW, but now that people can use those aegis defense bunkers, which come with the quad cannon thing for a cheap conversion, i foresee tons of those.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Excellent.

My Eldar and Dark Eldar have always needed that unit of Plague Marines to sit on the home objective.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Orochi said:


> Excellent.
> 
> My Eldar and Dark Eldar have always needed that unit of Plague Marines to sit on the home objective.


Lolz :laugh:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

If I do any Force Org setups it'd be either IG with CSM (to make a Word Bearers unit with those hoards of squishy humans they use as a way to weaken the enemy) or CSM with Daemons (Word Bearers again, but with cooler Daemonic things instead of the generic Lesser Daemons).


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Ultimately, I will actually need to see the rules before I decide what I am doing. Who knows. It might be like the Necron codex. I might hate it at first, but come to terms with it and end up liking certain things.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm thinnking of adding so Taau fire support too my GK's


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Ultimately, I will actually need to see the rules before I decide what I am doing. Who knows. It might be like the Necron codex. I might hate it at first, but come to terms with it and end up liking certain things.



Agreed, currently there is a lot of talk about cheese ("TAKE PALADINS WITH EVERYTHING!!!ONE111!!!! TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!") but I doubt things will be that silly. If I do any ally based lists though they'll be setup around doing some kind of fluffy build.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

The thought of some beefy GK in front of my guardsmen blob does sound appealing... especially since Ogryns which are SUPPOSED to fill the same role.... are insanely over priced, both points and also cost of the models.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

For the most part, unless it's super fluffy or very minor, I won't be using the rules, or be playing against anyone who uses allies. It's a broken system that really only helps out Imperial players, poor nids getting jerked over again, (Also I have 2 Imperial armies and still hate it), all I see is super cheese armies now...as if there weren't enough Grey Knights running around, now even more armies will have Grey Knights hidden through out...it's sad the game is going that way, as it's not about balance at all, but all about selling more models. Pay to win is lame, and GW should be ashamed.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Taggerung said:


> For the most part, unless it's super fluffy or very minor, I won't be using the rules, or be playing against anyone who uses allies. It's a broken system that really only helps out Imperial players, poor nids getting jerked over again, (Also I have 2 Imperial armies and still hate it), all I see is super cheese armies now...as if there weren't enough Grey Knights running around, now even more armies will have Grey Knights hidden through out...it's sad the game is going that way, as it's not about balance at all, but all about selling more models. Pay to win is lame, and GW should be ashamed.


Given the climate, we should hardly be surprised that GW is doing all it can to sell more models. As for the system being broken and only helping Imperial players, two thoughts occur. The first is that Chaos and Xenos players will benefit just as much since Daemons and CSM can now be used together while I wouldn't be surprised if you see a few Eldar/Tau armies. The second is that we should wait and see how it actually works out. Yes there will be some people who cram their armies with Grey Knights, but there are also going to be people who add in units that complement something their army is already good at.


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## Inari82 (Dec 6, 2011)

Excellent. Now my SoB can watch the DoA take flight and do what they are suppose to. Perhaps take those fast Immolaters again.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Markerlights and Scatter Lasers/Splinter Cannons anyone?


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

It's only a question of fluff and might be awfully specific, considering there are quite a few oddities in that table, but from my army's point of view, one thing struck me in particular:

Why of all the Space Marine Chapters, is it the Black Templars having the worst allying status towards Sisters of Battle?


I mean, from the Sisters' perspective:

Imperial Guard (for comparison)
- fighting for the Impeium -> very good
- adhering to the Imperial Cult -> very good
- being proper humans -> good

- using witchcraft (sanctions psykers) -> slightly bad
- using mutants (Ogryns, Halflings) -> slightly bad
resulting according to GW to that 'green' ally-status.


Space Marines (in general)
- fighting for the Impeium -> very good

- not adhering to the Imperial Cult -> very bad
- being mutants -> bad
- using witchcraft (Scriptors) -> slightly bad
resulting in that medium 'blue' ally-status. (so far I can comprehend it!)


BUT, Black Templars don't use Psykers and of all the various chapters their belief is (just a speculative personal feeling) closest to the Imperial Cult (certainly no worse than that of the Space Wolves, I think!)

So why the 'red' ally-status between them (and just them!) and the Sisters?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Fun fact that I just realized about CSM's and allies. They can get 6 MC's in a 1500pt list. To bad this will probably get taken away real fast in the next CSM codex. Also MC's actually got worse at hurting vehicles not better in most cases. MC's will most often have to half their attacks to stand a good chance of hurting anything with AV14-13 all around unless they are str9+. Hell hive tyrants and other nid MC's are looking at 3 str10 attacks with a re-roll rather then 6-7 attacks that had only slightly worse odds of penning the same tank,


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Chaos with Dark Eldar, oh yeah baby. Obliterators? I can take Ravagers now. Or even Broadsides, go figure.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Grogbart said:


> It's only a question of fluff and might be awfully specific, considering there are quite a few oddities in that table, but from my army's point of view, one thing struck me in particular:
> 
> Why of all the Space Marine Chapters, is it the Black Templars having the worst allying status towards Sisters of Battle?
> 
> ...


I saw this come up on Bolter and Chainsword and someone pointed out that Black Templars are still following the Emperor's original edicts from the Great Crusade: namely they don't like religion or people who deify the Emperor because the Emperor had declared that everyone needed to cut that crap out. So ergo they don't like the Sisters because they don't like the Ecclesiarch. I'm sure there is a grudging respect to their prowess considering they're squishy mortals but there is no good feelings in that relationship.

So yeah, someone was paying attention to some VERY minute details in the fluff there.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

hmm slaanesh chaos/daemons with dark eldar? :shok:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Fun fact that I just realized about CSM's and allies. They can get 6 MC's in a 1500pt list. To bad this will probably get taken away real fast in the next CSM codex. Also MC's actually got worse at hurting vehicles not better in most cases. MC's will most often have to half their attacks to stand a good chance of hurting anything with AV14-13 all around unless they are str9+. Hell hive tyrants and other nid MC's are looking at 3 str10 attacks with a re-roll rather then 6-7 attacks that had only slightly worse odds of penning the same tank,


And lo, did the oft spat-on Carnifex raise it's spikey head and say "screw you" to the Trygon.:biggrin:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Also, I do believe there are going to be rules on how well allies intermingle. Yes, there are nasty combinations, but will they *actually* compliment each other, or just hinder? I really doubt the example given of Tau markerlights being usable by DE will be doable. I doubt anything but the bestest of buddies will be able to even think about using their allies' special rules... Otherwise, give me a Chronos. Pain tokens all round!


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

pantat said:


> The wording seems to imply that it works on power weapons now, which is actually a buff. Not on instant death tho


I'm trying to figure out why people would pay for PW now if they don't work for Terminators or FnP??? They usually are not cheap even by 5th edition where they do ignore armor on Termies and ignore FnP.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Suijin said:


> I'm trying to figure out why people would pay for PW now if they don't work for Terminators or FnP??? They usually are not cheap even by 5th edition where they do ignore armor on Termies and ignore FnP.


Or how i will never not take terminators or sanguinary guard again now. Suppose the PW are good marine killers, but they always were anyway.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> I'm trying to figure out why people would pay for PW now if they don't work for Terminators or FnP??? They usually are not cheap even by 5th edition where they do ignore armor on Termies and ignore FnP.


For some armies (Sisters) there isn't a Power Fist equivelant available to a lot of squads (and for the Canoness losing her initiative is bad since her Act of Faith boosts it so taking an Eviscerator on her is pointless), others (Guard) pay a lot of points for something that takes them to S6 so the Power Weapon tends to be a better deal, or not taking anything at all (thus buying more Guardsmen), and other armies just don't get anything like that (Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar) and instead rely on other tricks to get by.

Now if you have Power Fists, I don't know why you'd take anything else in general. Being able to wound T6 and down on 2s and T7 on 3s is incredibly useful, and they let you reliably punch tanks. So unless you're losing a much needed initiative bonus they're the better choice, especially in the new edition.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

Zion said:


> I saw this come up on Bolter and Chainsword and someone pointed out that Black Templars are still following the Emperor's original edicts from the Great Crusade: namely they don't like religion or people who deify the Emperor because the Emperor had declared that everyone needed to cut that crap out. So ergo they don't like the Sisters because they don't like the Ecclesiarch. I'm sure there is a grudging respect to their prowess considering they're squishy mortals but there is no good feelings in that relationship.
> 
> So yeah, someone was paying attention to some VERY minute details in the fluff there.


... and ignoring vast parts of the rest!

I consider myself lessoned on Black Templar belief, thanks for that!
But I still don't see even that being worse, than what's been going on between the Ecclesiarchy and the Space Wolves, but hey! I wish those where the only 40K related issues I had!


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Zion said:


> I saw this come up on Bolter and Chainsword and someone pointed out that Black Templars are still following the Emperor's original edicts from the Great Crusade: namely they don't like religion or people who deify the Emperor because the Emperor had declared that everyone needed to cut that crap out. So ergo they don't like the Sisters because they don't like the Ecclesiarch. I'm sure there is a grudging respect to their prowess considering they're squishy mortals but there is no good feelings in that relationship.
> 
> So yeah, someone was paying attention to some VERY minute details in the fluff there.


Don't all space marines do that to? They all see the Emperor has the a great man that everyone should aspire to be but still a man. While guardsmen also believe that the Emperor is a god and followed the Ecclesiarchy teachings.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I for one am super stoked that i'll be legally able to play my mindshackled guard army beside their Necron Lords. How's it feel to face two Ward books, AT THE SAME TIME?! Can't wait.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> Don't all space marines do that to? They all see the Emperor has the a great man that everyone should aspire to be but still a man. While guardsmen also believe that the Emperor is a god and followed the Ecclesiarchy teachings.


Not really no. Most do, but some see him as closer to a diety as well. Either way the Black Templar still follow the rules laid out during the Crusade not the rules laid out by the Ultramarines (hence the massive chapter size) which includes disbanding religions. I would guess the Black Templar aren't too keen about the whole Imperium established religion they aren't allowed to touch (with their fists) and instead avoid dealing with it when possible. But that's just my assumption.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Sothot said:


> I for one am super stoked that i'll be legally able to play my mindshackled guard army beside their Necron Lords. How's it feel to face two Ward books, AT THE SAME TIME?! Can't wait.


An interesting concept, actually. Though I'd be more likely to run them as Orks and use them as suicide assault squads, which is what my Necrons would be more likely to do.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

You don't have to worry about markerlights helping allies. They only help out Tau units, which doesn't even cover all the units in the Tau codex.

And I was pretty sure Guard wasn't a Ward army, Cruddace isn't it?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Sothot said:


> I for one am super stoked that i'll be legally able to play my mindshackled guard army beside their Necron Lords. How's it feel to face two Ward books, AT THE SAME TIME?! Can't wait.


Having a Necron Lord beside guardsmen is going to make them both take penalties. When you take allies that hate each other best to keep them away to lower the chances of being penalized.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> Also, I do believe there are going to be rules on how well allies intermingle. Yes, there are nasty combinations, but will they *actually* compliment each other, or just hinder? I really doubt the example given of Tau markerlights being usable by DE will be doable. I doubt anything but the bestest of buddies will be able to even think about using their allies' special rules... Otherwise, give me a Chronos. Pain tokens all round!


If they are 'Brothers in Arms' they can have ICs go between 'armies' and the allies can cast psychic powers on each other. If they are 'Grudging Allies' then they pretty much work as two different armies, no sharing at all. If they are a 'Unholy Alliance' then if a unit of allies are within 6" of each other they have to roll a d6 at the start of the turn. If it's a 1 they can't do anything for that turn.

Gk are not Brother in Arms with anyone so that will tone the 'zomgzor we will all have GK' down a bit probably. I think the most scary combo I have seen of the Brother in Arms is Eldar and Tau, everyone say it with me now... 'Fortuned and Guided Broadsides.'


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Zerkers with Guardsmen meatshields and Autocannon / tank-spam.

I can live with this. I understand "some one will abuse allies" but this is inevitable. It's the same as GK Psyfleman lists or Venom spam; you have to grit the teeth and bear it.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

While its debatable whether or not Fortune and Guide could work on anything other than an Eldar (of any sort) unit. Broadsides won't need Guide since they are already twin-linked where it counts. But certainly, a little Divination could go a long way to make sure those Fire Warriors actually hit and wound.

Consider a nice Night Spinner to slow down their hordish opponents.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

scscofield said:


> everyone say it with me now... 'Fortuned and Guided Broadsides.'


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

It's actually a gk Coteaz Acolyte army. I call them Guard because they're all humans with las guns and crummy saves. Better get painting...


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm contemplating a super fluffy Ork Freebooterz list. I now have the option to actually have a Possessed Warphead (Chaos Demon "possessed" Ork Weirdboy), Stormboyz of Khorne, Ork Renegade Chaos warband (with Ork aspiring champion), or human mercenaries (i.e., IG). I can still use the Ork codex, but now have the option to use the CD, CSM, and IG codices.

I'm leaning more toward the human mercenaries and painting them up as Gorkamorka Diggaz (humans that were excavating a Necron Tomb on Gorkamorka who went insane and now think they're Orks--green face paint and everything).

I'm going to have fun with this.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

SilverTabby said:


> Also, I do believe there are going to be rules on how well allies intermingle. Yes, there are nasty combinations, but will they *actually* compliment each other, or just hinder? I really doubt the example given of Tau markerlights being usable by DE will be doable. I doubt anything but the bestest of buddies will be able to even think about using their allies' special rules... Otherwise, give me a Chronos. Pain tokens all round!


 
you can give pain tokens to whatever you want but if they don't have the power from pain special rule it isn't going to do anything for them.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Klaivex said:


> you can give pain tokens to whatever you want but if they don't have the power from pain special rule it isn't going to do anything for them.


Exactly. Even if a power could transfer, an army may not be able to use it. Another example is Descent of Angels. You actually have to be a BA Jump Infantry, not an ally to use it. The codex specifically says "a Blood Angel unit with this rule ..." Surely some things could be broken but things can be broken without allies. Ask the codex hoppers at any tournament.


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

Klaivex said:


> you can give pain tokens to whatever you want but if they don't have the power from pain special rule it isn't going to do anything for them.


So true. There are things in the Dark Eldar codex that can get pain tokens but receive no benefit from them. The fluffy allies will be quite fun while the power allies will just be a new challenge to overcome. A player should be able to field lists to handle any codex or combination of codici.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Sothot said:


> I for one am super stoked that i'll be legally able to play my mindshackled guard army beside their Necron Lords. How's it feel to face two Ward books, AT THE SAME TIME?! Can't wait.


Except you're not Imperial Guard was written by Robin Cruddace. Sorry...


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

And i assume nobody has worked out any other game - breaking combos than Imperial Guard Tank spam using the Guard Codex. As a Guard player, use of the orders system with heavy AT units (like Long Fangs receiving a BID order - 4/5 TL Missiles that can splitfire = WIN AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT HAS AN AV). FOMT order (reroll succesful cover saves) will be handy for shooting units to reduce the effectiveness of cover moreso than already rumoured for 6th. I don't think though that (ideally) everyone will run for the instawin combos (that could be pretty fluff breaking), using the latter codex to complement the first (and using 1 unit of TH/SS termies in an IG mech list does not compensate effectively for poor CC ability). The army specific weaknesses will be watered down a touch, but build specific weaknesses will occur instead (lack of AA, Low Model Count, Low DPS).


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Do the orders have a special rule like marine combat tactics and DE power from pain? If so then orders wouldn't work on units without that. If it just requires the IC then that might be interesting.


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

Anyone able to Fluff educate me on why the Sisters of Battle and Black Templars would only be desperate allies.

They both hate psykers and are imperial zealots, but for some reason regard each other in the same fashion as they do Xenos.

As these are my two primary armies, I'm disappointed to say the least, especially as it makes littel fluff sense from what I've read.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

BT follow the Emps original standpoint of there is no gods. SoB are a faith based church army. At least thats the reason I have seen suggested


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

Hmm why does everyone belive that one armies special rules/USR's can be used on an allie?
Can you really see a Space wolf following the orders of a Guard commander? Can you realy see an eldar farseer useing his powers on an allie, instead of his own troops?
You will probaly find that in the rules will be a statement/rule say that allies can not benfit from any Special rules/wargear ect,ect from the army there allied with.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Purge the Heretic said:


> Anyone able to Fluff educate me on why the Sisters of Battle and Black Templars would only be desperate allies.
> 
> They both hate psykers and are imperial zealots, but for some reason regard each other in the same fashion as they do Xenos.
> 
> As these are my two primary armies, I'm disappointed to say the least, especially as it makes littel fluff sense from what I've read.


It should be remembered that fluff, especially the novels, is rarely consistent. I remember reading one story where a bunch of black templars are trying to take out some psyker and run into some Sisters of Battle and Ordo Hereticus troops. The Templar commander ends up splitting his force so he can aid the Sisters and kill the psyker. In Faith and Fire though one of the sisters has a go at Marines because Marines use psykers.

It's stuff like that which might explain the desperate allies thing between Sisters and Marines. Then again the guard use psykers and the Sisters don't seem to have a problem with them.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

scscofield said:


> Do the orders have a special rule like marine combat tactics and DE power from pain? If so then orders wouldn't work on units without that. If it just requires the IC then that might be interesting.


no they dont, it just says on a friendly unit withing 6"/12"


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

LOL. That makes me laugh. Marines would never take orders from a Guard Commander. They ignore Inquisitors unless they have a fleet with them. But you made me think of something amussing.

Guard Commissar attempts to issue an order to Dark Eldar Kabalites. Commissar dies to a withering hail of splinter fire. :biggrin:


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Commissar: "You! Necrons! Shoot over there!"
Destructeks: (Slowly turn and look at him)
Commissar: (Gulps) "Uh. Carry on."


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Antonius said:


> As a Guard player, use of the orders system with heavy AT units (like Long Fangs receiving a BID order - 4/5 TL Missiles that can splitfire = WIN AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT HAS AN AV).


Don't think they can split fire, as you nominate one target for both the FomT and BID attacks.

Midnight


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

It states in the IG codex "single friendly unit". So unless the rules state you are considered a "friendly unit" (likely only Battle Brothers, if anything) then it's unlikely you can issue orders. These older 'dexes weren't written with allies in mind, and it's more than likely Special Rules won't cross over. In WH and DH, the special rules of allies didn't cross over.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

but then again the fights in WD arnt renown for playing well or with good lists


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

khrone forever said:


> but then again the fights in WD arnt renown for playing well or with good lists


thats very true, i almost cried when i saw the space wolves list against the tyranids the other month, no wonder he lost.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Think its more about showcasing new stuff rather than building a winning list lol


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

It's been that way for an age.

Years ago, I re-call Gav Thorpe and Fat Bloke deciding against Longbeards and Hammerers in favour of Ironbreakers against Space McQuirk's Goblins and Phil Kelly's Skaven. Heresy by todays standards.

Tactical thinking has evidently died a death in the world of WD.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Well ican see it from their viewpoint of wanting to get people into it and seeing shiny new stuff and different rules etc.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

It's also a case of they have to use what they've got 'eavy metal models for. And 'eavy metal paints up box contents, and a limited number of variations of things. There's simply no time time to paint more than that.

So you end up with pretty, but not necessarily winning armies. Unless you play as smurfs, who have an enormous painted army simply because everything basic marine gets painted blue.

*That's* the truth behind why WD armies are sometimes baffling and suck. If the battle report is done with *personal* armies, it's a different matter...


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

There is very little crossover in WHFB allies; as the current 40K data matches closely FB allies I suspect that there will be little crossover of special rules.


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