# Getting TH/SS termies into 1500pts



## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

You often see two comments in response to a squad of THSS termies being included in an SM 1500pts list.

They need a ride (if they don't have a dedicated transport)
Too expensive, rock (if they do have a landraider transport)
I love TH/SS termies. They always influence the battle in a good way when I play them. However, having limited time for games I usually play evening battles of 1500pts. Here is a possible solution to the issue above.


> Inquisitor [WH] BoHF, PW, frag and krak grenades, chimera, hull-HF, searchlight
> Familiar
> 5xTH/SS terminators
> @335pts or add EA @340pts


The Inquisitor is an IC, so ditches the familiar and rides in the chimera with the termies. Another IC could join them if desired. Chimeras are AV12 on front so quite good for charging across the field. Possibly flanked by rhinos. There is a mild asynergy with the lack of guns to shoot out the five fireports, but that isn't really the point. For a mere 135pts your termies can cross the table more quickly, more safely from annoyance fire. If the chimera does explode, they're not likely to mind too much. If it doesn't, it'll arrive with flamer and multilaser, park up for a turn (sadly no smoke), and then termies assault out of it with Inquisitor. Actually, it wouldn't even be a bad thing if your opponent blew it up in their turn when you are already near enough to close and charge.

Thoughts?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Chimeras only work if you're playing the old WH or DH codex, which most people don't and don't have models for. The best way of getting them in is with a libby with GoE, then with a load of other high priority shock assault units in there to divide fire e.g. sternguards, DP dreads etc.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Chimeras only work if you're playing the old WH or DH codex, which most people don't and don't have models for.


What do you mean? The list is a valid SM list - it can be used in tournaments (unless the TOs are arbitrarily outlawing it). I'm using a standard IG chimera. For the inquisitor I'm tossing up between using a Death Korps commissar (because I like the model), or Inquisitor Solomon (because he comes with a servo-skull, but looks a bit rabid sadly), or Grey Knight Inquisitor with PW (and inferno pistol, which I'd mod).

GW supply the WH codex free online at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2. The only other thing you need to know is the permitted composition, which is given in the printed Codex Witch Hunters as

0-1 HQ
0-1 Elite
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast

Noting that while you are still restricted by your FOC slots, you cannot use WH units to fulfil your validation criteria. So you'd need another HQ, but that's fine - I'd field a librarian in power armour riding in that same chimera. GoE used to be awesome, but was nerfed recently in FAQs. DS isn't a great way to reach your destination and ensuring that the termies arrive nicely lined up with the other units is going to be dicey. Not to mention the cost of those other units. The chimera route is compact and strong, and doesn't commit you to having a libby if you don't want to.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes but it technically isn't a WH army as you'd be using all SM units. Unless you can get a WH HQ which most people are not prepared to do. There are far more competitive ways of getting TH/SS into your army, and the WH melta builds are better if you're going down that route anyway.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> There are far more competitive ways of getting TH/SS into your army


At 1500pts that is simply not true. There are *not* more competitive ways to get TH/SS into a 1500pt SM list.


spanner94ezekiel said:


> Yes but it technically isn't a WH army as you'd be using all SM units... WH melta builds are better if you're going down that route anyway.


While possibly true, neither point forms a valid objection. My concept is for improving an SM list. Specifically a 1500pt SM list in which you want to include TH/SS terminators. Not being a WH list, or a good WH list, is irrelevant.


spanner94ezekiel said:


> Unless you can get a WH HQ which most people are not prepared to do.


There are only two HQ models to get - a guy in carapace with a PW and Brazier, and a familiar (it can be a psyber-raven, cherub, or servo-skull). Well worth the investment and a fun way to extend your collection. For 10pts more you could buy the HQ power armour, and just use a Dark Angels model.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

vonklaude said:


> At 1500pts that is simply not true. There are *not* more competitive ways to get TH/SS into a 1500pt SM list.
> 10 man squads with a libby with GoE works a treat for drawing fire, and will munch anything it comes into contact with. 2 deepstriking squads paired with a spearhead of sternguards or dreadnoughts make it hard for your opponent to prioritise.
> While possibly true, neither point forms a valid objection. My concept is for improving an SM list. Specifically a 1500pt SM list in which you want to include TH/SS terminators. Not being a WH list, or a good WH list, is irrelevant.
> Exactly. Are Chimeras in the space marine codex? I thought not. Therefore you can't use them without it changing into an Inquisition army which is technically illegal as it ORGINATES from anotehr codex.
> ...


I rest my case.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

You are mistaken and I suspect you are critiquing without being familiar with the RAW in question (apologies if that is not the case!) *Chimeras are valid in a Space Marines codex list* using the allies rules in the Witch Hunters codex which do explicitly run both ways. The RAW states

'Witch hunters can be included as allies in any of the following Codex armies

Space Marines, including variant...'

These are NOT Apocalypse rules, they are standard 40K.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes but only if the original army was WH. You cannot have a marine army with chimeras without starting with WH, therefore requiring the codex and at least an HQ from that codex, which most SM players do not have and are not prepared to get particularly when the new WH codex is just around the corner and will probably screw this rule over.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

September isn't really round the corner.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Yes but only if the original army was WH. You cannot have a marine army with chimeras without starting with WH, therefore requiring the codex and at least an HQ from that codex, which most SM players do not have and are not prepared to get particularly when the new WH codex is just around the corner and will probably screw this rule over.


Per RAW what you say is categorically incorrect. You *can* have a marines army with chimeras starting with SM. The wording of RAW is completely clear. When new rules come out that change this, the tactic will no longer be valid. Until then it is valid. That's true of a wide range of tactics, and hardly constitutes a particular fault with this one. GW could make anything invalid, if they wanted.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Yes but only if the original army was WH. You cannot have a marine army with chimeras without starting with WH, therefore requiring the codex and at least an HQ from that codex, which most SM players do not have and are not prepared to get particularly when the new WH codex is just around the corner and will probably screw this rule over.



No, the current WH codex is legal, and you can take a SM army with WH allies, so vonklaude is correct.

Good spot, +Rep.

Also, witch hunters have fluky Psyhic hood rules which have unlimited range. And if you happen to have multiple WH hoods you can activate all of them to cancel a opponents power! Voila, Best anti-psyker defence in the game! There psychic powers arent bad either....


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Good point about the hood. It's expensive-ish and Inquisitor LD is only 8, but still likely worth taking. Especially if you run a librarian with the squad.

I'll build a list around this concept and post it under SM lists. Any other improvements?


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm afraid it doesn't quite work they way you want it. Page 28 of Codex: WH states:
"*Unless accompanied by his retinue*, the Inquisitor is an Independent Character..."
"If the retinue is destroyed, the Inquisitor becomes an Independent Character again..."

And secondly: Page 33 of the Witch Hunters Codex in the box at the top states: 
"Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and *may only transport the unit it was bought for*"

So you can't have TH/SS Terminators in WH transports useless you have a house rule, and even then the Inquisitor can't join them until his familiar is killed. In addition the TH/SS Terminators can't begin the game in the transport.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I'm afraid it doesn't quite work they way you want it. Page 28 of Codex: WH states:
> "*Unless accompanied by his retinue*, the Inquisitor is an Independent Character..."
> "If the retinue is destroyed, the Inquisitor becomes an Independent Character again..."
> 
> ...



BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM SHAKA LAKA!!!!!


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

JelloSea said:


> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM SHAKA LAKA!!!!!


This. Mr. Skoll just put it more succinctly than me and had references to the codex


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> And secondly: Page 33 of the Witch Hunters Codex in the box at the top states:
> "Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and *may only transport the unit it was bought for*"


The official *Witch Hunters FAQ* right at the top lists that '_*Transports *The second print run of the Codex removed references to a transport vehicle only being usable by the unit that bought it _' so TO's likely will (and should) accept that it is GW's stated intention the transports in WH conform with the general rules for dedicated transports. If you are using this in a tournament it would make sense to check the list with your organisers first. For casual, only the most churlish opponent would deny your right to put the termies into the chimera. Note that the allies rules are sustained, being referred to and clarified in multiple places in that same FAQ.



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> "*Unless accompanied by his retinue*, the Inquisitor is an Independent Character..."
> "If the retinue is destroyed, the Inquisitor becomes an Independent Character again..."


In that case, simply modify the list so the TH/SS termies ride alone or with a libby, while the Inquisitor sits back and exerts counter-psyker-ness over the whole table. Thus



> Inquisitor [WH] psychic hood, chimera, hull-HF
> Familiar
> 5xTH/SS terminators
> _Inquisitor and familiar deployed separately from transport._
> @331pts or add EA @336pts


Which TBH is probably a better setup. The proposal stands, and it is legal


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you think paying 130pts for a Chimera is efficient, more power to you.

I'd rather have 3 more guys, making it 8x TH/SS termies, who can happily walk across the board/deep strike safe in the knowledge that MOST army compositions will struggle to bring them down provided you base the rest of your army around them and their weaknesses.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Sethis said:


> If you think paying 130pts for a Chimera is efficient, more power to you.


It is *85pts for the Chimera* (with decent weapons), and 45pts for psychic defence covering the entire table. That noted, when I use a term like efficiency I'm thinking in terms of the performance of a specific function. There are a great many functions that an 85pt Chimera is not efficient for, but in connection with the function of giving your termies a ride it is efficient.



Sethis said:


> I'd rather have 3 more guys, making it 8x TH/SS termies, who can happily walk across the board/deep strike safe in the knowledge that MOST army compositions will struggle to bring them down provided you base the rest of your army around them and their weaknesses.


I have tried using 8 TH/SS termies at 1500pts many times. The most successful was a termie bubble-wrap list. They work well for that on foot because they don't need mobility. However, without the ride in my experience they lack the mobility to be flexible in response to the changing situation. For example, if you go first and your opponent denies flank when you are forced to take an aggressive role (i.e. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/05/offense-or-defense-which-am-i.html) then you can end up with your termies unable to affect the battle much. This happened to me against Eldar recently, the fight was over before my termies got to anything to hammer. Before you say that must have been bad generalship I'll add that I won, but I missed the pleasure of seeing my termies engage. They affected the battle slightly I would say, creating a bit of a 'let's not go there' zone around them, but I really felt they could have done more.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

It's definitely legal to embark Termies in the Chimera during the movement phase of turn 1, assuming you have a witchunters unit that can purchase it. It is part of the allies rules. You are using a Space Marine army with Inquisitorial Allies. 

That is all.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Ah, so they finally updated the WH FAQ with that. It went through a good 2-3 updates without it being mentioned, despite BT and DH getting their transports for everyone. Yay for inconsistency.


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