# Legion Sizes



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I know that some legions are very large like WBs and Ultras. Some were very small like ECs. Some were assembled in strange oranisation like the Death Gaurd with thier grand comapnies. So my questions is if anyone have a clue or educated guess as to the numbers of these legions or which Legions were the largest to smallest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Raven Guard are said to have been one of the smallest Legions in _Raven's Flight_ numbering around 80,000 Astartes. Its also plausable that the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons were another two of the smallest Legions, due to their respective 'accidents' - The Emperor's Children geneseed accident which left them with only 200 Astartes upon being reunited with Fulgrim, and the Flesh-Change of the Thousand Sons which left their Legion decimated.

The Ultramarines and Word Bearers are noted as the largest and second largest respectively. But depending on what source your using the number of the Ultramarines Legion for example can range from around 25,000 - 250,000. 

Its the same with the average Legion size, depending on the source it can range from roughly 10,000 - 100,000. Graham Mcneill and Dan Abnett tend to take the smaller Legion sizes as accurate whilst Gav Thorpe and the _Collected Visions_ tends to take the larger Legion sizes as accurate. So I guess its down to personal preference. I personally take the larger Legion sizes as more plausable and believable, but thats just me.


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## Sytus (Aug 27, 2009)

At the end of "A Thousand Sons" Ahriman remarks that only 1500 marines had survived through the burning of Prospero, and that that was about a tenth of the Legion's original strength. (He did say that partway through the battle, when there were about 1500 still alive, less survived)

This would mean the legion would have been about 15000 Marines strong, give or take a bit.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Sytus said:


> At the end of "A Thousand Sons" Ahriman remarks that only 1500 marines had survived through the burning of Prospero, and that that was about a tenth of the Legion's original strength. (He did say that partway through the battle, when there were about 1500 still alive, less survived)
> 
> This would mean the legion would have been about 15000 Marines strong, give or take a bit.


Yeah, this lines up with what was previously mentioned, with Graham McNeil being the author of _A Thousand Sons_.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well there's not been anything else said regarding the Thousands Sons Legion size so it's the most viable source to use- the comment about 9/10ths of the Legion being dead was stated when there were only 1,200 brothers left, so that'd be a total of 12,000 at full strength. Definitely one of the smallest Legions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Salamanders are said to be the smallest legion. 

Its interesting to why some legions had more than others. Besides for some accidents to some of the legions like the Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons, some legions like the Salamanders and the Iron Warriors who roughly had about 12,000 to maybe at most 15,000 marines. It could be possibly some legions were used more than others, maybe primarchs saw having less number was a tactic within itself and decided to save geneseed, or maybe some legions geneseed was produced more than others before the finding of the primarchs thus giving primarchs limited amounts of geneseed to work with.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

It can also come from recruitment methods as well as overall fighting style and how often a legion spent fighting over anything else.

Some of the legions recruited from a select few worlds, like the Dark Angels from Caliban and a few others, the Night Lords from Nostromo, the Thousand Sons from Prospero and so on; while other legions recruited from any number of worlds. More worlds to draw recruits from means more recruits, means more members of the legion barring horrendous losses.

Theres also how some legions fought, simply going from one fight to the next without much in the way of replenishing some losses while others did not go right to the next fight. The Ultramarines, for example, stayed with a conquered world or system and helped it to rebuild for a time, which would allow them to find new recruits to replace any losses incurred or to merely find those who they could induct into the legion to make it stronger.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well the Ultramarines had 8 inhabited *systems* providing them with recruits and unlike the Imperial Fists who recruited on the move the recruitment camps of Ultramar were designed to provide a relatively high intake of noviates.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Iron Warriors were mention to be spread all over the Galaxy for their Seige skills. I would assume they had to be large to be covering so much space and performing some of the hardest work. 

World Eaters is a very interesting Legion in size make up. They throw themselves in every battle and loose tons of troops. On top of that they dont seem to take recruits often as they slay whole worlds or populace in battle. They battle often as well, never really taking a break when the next big battle is on the horizen. How the Hell is there so many WEs even after the Heresy!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> How the Hell is there so many WEs even after the Heresy!


Probably by not being too picky on who they recruit.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Plus the fact that because their isn't really a World Eaters Legion in any real sense alot of Berzerkers of Khorne are probably from a variety of Legions and Renegade Chapters and have formed up with former WE brethren in a Khorne Warband.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> How the Hell is there so many WEs even after the Heresy!


I can't explain their pre-heresy strength, other than being marines, lots of their casualtys survived and they recruited a lot. It should also be remembered that the process of makeing new marines was delibrately slowed up post heresy to stop chapters becomeing big armys of marines and to make monitor the character of recruits. 

Descent of Angels mentions that the Dark Angels had got the process of creating a fully trained marine down to something like 18 months and was regularly creating new chapters from scratch in this time period. (I might have the details slightly wrong, but I found both the DA HH books extremely weak, clumsy and uninspired and so haven't been near them since...)

The modern World Eaters are not a united legion but independent warbands of varying size (from a squad to larger than a company). It is mentioned in the fluff that these warbands reuglarly recruit to both replace casualtys and expand their numbers. 

Lord Zhufor, in imperial armour 7, is a good example. He was once a sergeant in the Storm Lords and was captured by World Eaters. A bit of torture, psycho-corrective surgery and some drugs soon had him fogetting the boring pious life of serveing the Emperor and saw him enjoying what most marines really desire (killing and war for the sake of killing and war). 

I reckon your average Ultramarine would be alot happier if they burned their codex and followed Zhufors example. But I digress. Imperial Armour 7 mentions that he Lord Zhufor actively conquered other Khorne warbands and united them under his command. An example of World Eaters expanding by absorbing non World Eaters into their ranks. 

Codex CSM mentions that the majority who want to seriously serve Khorne as a bezerker and under go the psycho surgery involved, have to join a world eater warband. It is still the World Eaters who have the best bezerker surgeons (although other CSM forces now have them). In a galaxy of war, there is probably no shortage of recruits seeking out to join the world eaters.

Finally, all the normal laws of physics don't apply in the eye of terror. World Eaters are servants of chaos who have long since given up their souls. As such, death on a battle field at one point in time, probably does not mean eternal death. The chaos masters might bring their loyal servants back to serve again in the future. A CSM killed in the 35th. millenium might of alrewady carried out many acts in the 38th. millenium before entering the warp and finding himself back in time. This would apply to all CSM in the eye of terror and also suggest that as long as chaos exsists, it has a ready supply of marines to do its bidding.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Its a weird thing but when I was reading Fulgrim again to see what amount of marines each legion might have sent, the traitor forces of four legions only equalled 30,000 and the loyal legions equalled 40,000. However, in Raven's Flight, the Raven Guard had 80,000 alone... Interesting. When the remaining "loyal legions" came to the drop site they "doubled" in force. Which I assume would be another 30,000 to 40,000. And thats about 4 legions. Which is weird if the Word Bearers have one of the biggest legions.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

I can help clear this up.

Raven's Flight and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, both say the Legions were about 100,000 in size.

The other Heresy novels go with figures closer to 10,000 to 20,000.

Gav Thorpe, who wrote Raven's Flight, went with the older official Legion sizes as the larger figures, which may have been older information - I'm not sure. The newer figures tend to be the smaller ones, which is what the majority of the Heresy novels tend to go with. They'd been like that for a few years, retconning what was stated in HH:CV.

EDIT: I certainly don't blame Gav - he went with what he thought was the official party line, and I'm sure it came as an unpleasant surprise to be considered wrong. Really, both are right, and both are wrong.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

So will you have a little fun and toss in the larger legion numbers at one point?

Personally, I'm a bit more of a fan of the smaller numbers; it allows the number of second founding chapters to make sense. There being less than fifty known second founding chapters plus the nine first founding chapters, having legions numbering a minimum of a hundred thousand would mean that the losses incurred during the Heresy and scouring would have been horrendous. (I mean yeah, it tore the Imperium apart, but if both sides suffered losses of hundreds of thousands of space marines on both sides plus non space marine losses..)


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Agreed- if the Ultramarines were takenfrom the HH: Collected Visions numbers to their Post-Heresy numbers then esseintially 9/10ths of the Legion was destroyed during the Heresy and Scouring.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, except I remember there being several places where they make specific note that the listed 2nd founding chapters from the Ultramarines do not necessarily provide the entirely comprehensive list.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

True, but working with what is known helps to get a rough idea of how many there may be; and from that how many space marines would have to have been left by the end of the Heresy and Scouring. From there you are able to go with what seems more reasonable; (all things considered) both sides having a million space marines with their forces reduced (for the loyalists at least) reduced to roughly fifty or so thousand or both sides having close to between one and two hundred thousand marines.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

space cowboy said:


> Well, except I remember there being several places where they make specific note that the listed 2nd founding chapters from the Ultramarines do not necessarily provide the entirely comprehensive list.


Indeed the full list of Ultramarine derived chapters in the 2nd founding isn't given- but the number of them is, 23.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

the easiest way to know the size of a legion immediately after the heresy is to take the number of successor chapters plus 1 and times by 1k. Dark Angels had a max of 4,000 marines after the heresy (3 successors) and given that half of the chapter supposedly fell to chaos then we know that the Dark Angels Legion had 8,000 marines. Ultramarines had 24,000 after the heresy, etc etc.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Its an interesting idea Lucio, and it can work for some chapters, but it then falls flat when you use it for a chapter like the Iron Hands. They, along with the Salamanders and Raven Guard were brought down to a scant few dozen, but the Iron Hands have two second founding successors. By the logic of your post, that would have to mean they made it through the Heresy with anywhere between 1500 and 3000 marines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think that in the scheme of things, it will come down to small numbered legions. So I guess its safe to assume that maybe Gav Thorpe meant 8,000... which I only did by dividing by ten:victory:.

Besides for that, its hard to tell what number each legion had in the heresy novels where it did give evidence. One reason is that the traitor legions at the first Istaavan probably sustained a lot of casualties due to their "cleansing" within their ranks and also having three of the smallest legions out number four legions is kind of weird.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Its an interesting idea Lucio, and it can work for some chapters, but it then falls flat when you use it for a chapter like the Iron Hands. They, along with the Salamanders and Raven Guard were brought down to a scant few dozen, but the Iron Hands have two second founding successors. By the logic of your post, that would have to mean they made it through the Heresy with anywhere between 1500 and 3000 marines.


The Iron Hands weren't decimated like the Salamanders or Raven Guards- it was only the veterans who accompanied Ferrus to Istvaan V, the majority of the Legion never made it to the planet. 

Remember the Raven Guard had that horrific way of rapidly replacing losses, and since the Legion break-up wasn't till after the Scouring they had time to increase their size to such a level as to need to create more than 1 Chapter.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

I think that we have to remember that maths is not necessarily the best basis for narrative and dramatic flow.

An example is that around 1k Thousand sons [see what he did there] survived the book but after 10,000 years of attrition you 'd have to wonder how any could be left.

The bigger Legion sizes make better sense in terms of Chaos Marines surviving 10,000 years of attrition [ADB actually presents a realistic alternative to this happening in his book Soul Hunter] but the smaller ones work better to tell the story of the HH.

I think its one of those issues where we have to allow a degree of leeway with the fluff and accept that there were big legions of Space marines then and smaller chapters of loyalists and lots of chaos marines around now.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> I think that we have to remember that maths is not necessarily the best basis for narrative and dramatic flow.
> 
> An example is that around 1k Thousand sons [see what he did there] survived the book but after 10,000 years of attrition you 'd have to wonder how any could be left.
> 
> ...



On the flip side of that their is still Chapters like the Astral Claws, GKs, and Blood Ravens being formed and made with no known Geenseed. CSMs like in Dead Sky Black Sun can be made through Sorcery and twisted practices to pop Marines out like candy. Fabious Bile can make worlds of Monsters. 

All that tells me that their was smaller Legion sizes like the HH books say. They can have so many SM/CSM to date through recruiting, creating, or betraying.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> On the flip side of that their is still Chapters like the Astral Claws, GKs, and Blood Ravens being formed and made with no known Geenseed. CSMs like in Dead Sky Black Sun can be made through Sorcery and twisted practices to pop Marines out like candy. Fabious Bile can make worlds of Monsters.
> 
> All that tells me that their was smaller Legion sizes like the HH books say. They can have so many SM/CSM to date through recruiting, creating, or betraying.


Oh I absolutely agree, there are now established ways for the forces of chaos to grow and therefore remain a real threat. I think that those are comparatively recent compared to the orignial HH fluff and attnedant legion sizes though.

Hence, the downward revision in legion size doesn't really create an issue.

Well, except the previously mentioned Thousand Sons, since the Rubric affected only that chapter, it's difficult to see how extra Thousand Sons could come into existence. Equally though with a bit of creativity it's not that big of an issue. [IE you could argue that unless the trapped essence/dust escapes with damage to the armour, then simply repairing the armour means the Marine becomes functional again.]


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It all can be reconciled, I think (or maybe just most of it?).

Figures of 10,000-strong Legions are simply representative of what the Imperium believes thousands of years after the fact. Conversely, none of us will truly know how many Persians were defeated at Marathon, nevermind Thermopylae... battles that occurred a "mere" two-and-a-half millennia ago.

"Fulgrim" paints for us what happened on the surface of Isstvan V. Those figures need to be taken with a bit of context, though. The Loyalists that Horus and his fellow Primarchs had culled from their ranks amounted to about a third of their respective Legions. Then we can factor in losses sustained in culling said Loyalists. Finally, we need to take into account the fact that the entirety of their Legions were not represented in that battle... were the Sons of Horus fighting Lion El'Jonson in the events of "Fallen Angels" the only such detachment separated from the main Legion, for example? Most of the Heresy books make mentions of instances where one Great Company/Chapter/etc. or another is sent to fight under another Legion.

The Heresy, which saw the Imperium in flames and fully half of its armies arrayed against the Emperor, almost certainly tested the logistics of the Loyalists to their limits. Isn't it fair to say that under such circumstances the numbers of Astartes were horribly grinded down without suitable replacements? After several years of fighting the Heresy and the Scouring, it's conceivable that Guilliman's Ultramarines went from over 200,000 to a mere 25,000 Astartes (who were in turn divided into Successor Chapters).

The only real difficulty, I think is in reconciling the newest Raven Guard figure (over 80,000) with the numbers cited in "Fulgrim", which I think mentions that the entirety of the Legion was deployed _and_ mentions a top-end figure of the Loyalists on the surface before the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion arrive.

Even so, I would argue that, at some point, we have to relent and accept that imperfect human beings will ultimately craft imperfect (though entertaining) stories. Sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and accept the fact that Graham McNeill said 20,000 or so Raven Guard Astartes landed only to later learn the creative group guiding the direction of the series decided on bigger, grander Legions.

C'est la guerre...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It is possible for them to just say that over 9/10's of the legion were held up in reserve. Which would kind of make sense dealing with the fact that besides Ferrus Manus, no one knew what the hell was truly going on with Horus and the great betrayel. So just sending a tenth of the legions during the start of the battle so they could see what was going on is reasonable. Then realizing the gravity soon sending more and more to destroy the traitors.


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## warmaster isaan (Sep 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I personally take the larger Legion sizes as more plausable and believable, but thats just me.


 i agree because for the legions to be separated so many times they would have to have a substantial amount of gene seed. for example the blood angels were broken up at-least 10 times and 5-7 of those in the second-founding. so if they only had for example ten thousand they would be severly depleted and stretched thinly if any xenos were threatening some imperial worlds.
And during the great crusade they were stretched thinly across the galaxy responding to distress signals of close by expedition fleets to help them and by sending 2 companies at a time with only 10,000 sending out say two companies each to distress signals 2 companies to one planet each in a system with about 3 inhabited planets that's a fifth of the legion gone already. I mean that's a substantial amount gone if they contact a Tyranid hive fleet. you know, it just wouldn't work out, why would the emperor build only tiny legions to try and conquer the galaxy.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

warmaster isaan said:


> you know, it just wouldn't work out, why would the emperor build only tiny legions to try and conquer the galaxy.


Because despite how advanced his technology was there are only so many children/young adults you can find on a single world to use as the super-soldiers who will unite humanity; while at the same time forming support armies for those legions as well as making sure enough people are left on the planet to continue breeding new life?

From space marines alone, go with 10000-15000 per legion and your looking at anywhere between 200000 and 300000 with support doubling or tripling the number of marines in those legions.


Do keep in mind that the numbers of marines per legion at the start of the Great Crusade would only expand as they brought lost worlds into the fold of the Imperium and found yet more good candidates for the imperial army and space marines. It would just come down to how the legions themselves operated; those who chose to go from world to world as soon as they could would likely recruit far less, relying on only a smaller number of worlds to draw recruits from while other legions would stay with worlds longer and gain recruits from each one, allowing their numbers to swell faster.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Marines arn't support units. They have humans that maintain the legions. It wouldn't triple in size. Although I do agree that numbers like 100000 and 80000 just seem absurdly large.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Although I do agree that numbers like 100000 and 80000 just seem absurdly large.


Even Legions numbering around 100,000 was a miniscule number when compared to the monumental and herculean task that was the Great Crusade. Huge swathes of the Galaxy were explored and conquered in a mere 200 years, highly dangerous Xenos empires and Warp spawned Daemons smashed aside. Its a miracle in my opinion that Legion's the size of 100,000 (on average) were not destroyed or at least rendered inactive for large periods of time when facing these volatile and dangerous enemies. To me, the smaller sized Legion's of 10,000 (on average) that we see in some novels seem highly unlikely - especially when you consider that large portions of the Legion's were often split and each Legion was only rarely gathered in its full strength. This makes it even more likely that each Legion would have suffered massively at the hands of each engagement.

There are many examples of particular campaigns where Astartes casualites were higher than one thousand, some even higher than that. If you take the smaller sized Legion's as accurate this is a massive dent in the Legion's fighting strength. And if you consider a Legion like the Iron Warriors for a second, which was split up and occupying areas all over the galaxy, they wouldn't have been able to muster many thousand Astartes all in all, and if they were engaged in a particually dangerous campaign, its putting the vast majority of the fighting strength of an entire Legion in jeopardy.

I don't think I've put my point across very well, but in my opinion the larger Legion sizes are just so much more plausable.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Marines arn't support units.


Never said they were, the normal men and women making up the imperial army who supported the various expeditionary fleets would have been support.

Though looking back, no idea why I said that when including the support it would double or triple the number of marines per legion. Personnel was the word that should have been there in place of marines.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even Legions numbering around 100,000 was a miniscule number when compared to the monumental and herculean task that was the Great Crusade.


I did say that I didn't think they had that many men. Just that it is a huge number. :biggrin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even Legions numbering around 100,000 was a miniscule number when compared to the monumental and herculean task that was the Great Crusade. Huge swathes of the Galaxy were explored and conquered in a mere 200 years, highly dangerous Xenos empires and Warp spawned Daemons smashed aside. Its a miracle in my opinion that Legion's the size of 100,000 (on average) were not destroyed or at least rendered inactive for large periods of time when facing these volatile and dangerous enemies. To me, the smaller sized Legion's of 10,000 (on average) that we see in some novels seem highly unlikely - especially when you consider that large portions of the Legion's were often split and each Legion was only rarely gathered in its full strength. This makes it even more likely that each Legion would have suffered massively at the hands of each engagement.


On the Flip Side in Dead Sky Black Sun 30 odd Marines had storm thru 2 warhost of Iron Warriors, traveled thru the siege, and make it almost to the Capital. That stupid Brotherhood of the Snake book (Ill admit I read only a few chapters) paints the classic picture of 1 Marine vs a Ork Horde. Last Chancers second book where the whole Tau army were killing the Kill Team had 1 Marine show up and own Battle Suits, Fire warriors, and Drones by his lonesome. Soul Drinkers has a army of 400 or so SMs take on a Daemon World of Zombies, Nurgly Daemons, Spawn, and Plague Marines, just to fight the DP Veh'meth, and win with 200 Marines left. 
There is plenty more examples in Fluff and Dexes where a squad of 10 Marines can take out 100s of troops and even rule worlds. so I can see easily 10,000 strong legion killing worlds with Ease...



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There are many examples of particular campaigns where Astartes casualites were higher than one thousand, some even higher than that. If you take the smaller sized Legion's as accurate this is a massive dent in the Legion's fighting strength. And if you consider a Legion like the Iron Warriors for a second, which was split up and occupying areas all over the galaxy, they wouldn't have been able to muster many thousand Astartes all in all, and if they were engaged in a particually dangerous campaign, its putting the vast majority of the fighting strength of an entire Legion in jeopardy.


True, look at the world of Murder, or Fulgrims campaign against the Laer. During the Great Crusade (and Fabious Bile achievments) show during that time it was not as hard to make a SM as is now. granted finding recriuts is harder, but the process, knowledge, and tech was much better than the state its all in now.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't think I've put my point across very well, but in my opinion the larger Legion sizes are just so much more plausable.


I can see back in those times for the capacity of Larger Legions. However due to the Never Ending battles and the fact the Legions typicaly split companies off to help other Legions or Gaurd, its seems accurate the smaller size at any given time to me.Like todays modern Millitaries. Sure America military could consist of Navy Seals, but the skill/equipment/money to fund that size force is not possible. I think the Gaurd play a big role to legions in this as the support. Marines themselves in Horus Rising are describe as the Spear Tip and last Resort. So I belive the Smaller Sizes as way more accurate.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with the idea that the legions had to have around a couple hundred thousand. I think the problem with comparing marines to other humans is kind of like trying to compare the business success of honda to pontiac. The space marines are meant to be a hundred or even a thousand times better than an average person. However, thats the problem... regular people with lasguns that would bounce off their armour. How about you put a regular guy with a melta gun for example or a lascannon. Kind of changes the odds of things. Now take that and put it to a more realistic comparrison to what space marines had to take in the crusade. Aliens with great technology. The heresy has a lot of example of multiple squads just being anihilated by these weapons. Anthony Renolds short story for example, Loken's conquests of worlds in the first three books. In the second Word Bearer's book for example the dark eldar attacked the word bearers and it was pretty much an even fight. The trailer for Dawn of War 2 also visualised an even fight with the blood ravens and the eldar. 

Though some marines through stories and stuff have made some heroic deeds, it the overall scheme of things they are very rare. 

The smaller numbers for the chapters could be explained due to the fact that the more advanced xeno threats are at a low peak due to their need for survival. Its also a good way to conserve geneseed and not lose it in mass quantities. It seems as though marines generally due their best when fighting against massive quantities of cannon fodder with troops charging them in mass amounts. 

This is not to say that space marines aren't as good as fluff suggests its just that there is so much a space marine can generally do. They are good at bashing things and shooting bullets that can penetrate regular armour. But their technology isn't the best and their armour is good at taking infinite amounts of bullshit firepower... but thats about it.


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