# The Culling of the Thunder Warriors: Very Sloppy Justifications



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

So according to The Outcast Dead, the Emperor culled the Thunder Warriors because he wanted to hog all the credit. 

Is it me or does this not make an ounce of sense? The Emperor engineered the Thunder Warriors. READ: The Emperor was responsible for their creation. Even if people knew about the Thunder Warriors' achievements, they'd give the Emperor credit for creating and leading them. Did the Emperor want people to think he walked around subjugating nations completely by himself? This strikes me as rather inane. 

I think the following would make more sense:
The Custodes were the Emperor's first super soldiers. They were a stable, very powerful design. However, they took way too long to produce. 

In response, the Emperor designed the Thunder Warriors. The Thunder Warriors were slightly less powerful than the Custodes, but could be produced at a somewhat faster rate. 

However, the Thunder Warriors design was unstable. From what we know, the Thunder Warriors were individually more powerful than the Astartes. This potency came at the cost of mental stability and physical longevity. A Thunder Warrior was short-lived. Moreover, a Thunder Warriors displayed extreme aggression and erratic, reckless behaviour, tendencies he often struggled to suppress. Rather than tempering these impulses, age magnified them and they became less and less controllable as physical deterioration and hyper-aggression set in. The Thunder Warriors were therefore a potent but ultimately deeply flawed template. 

The Emperor knew he would have to conquer many worlds across the galaxy. Many of these worlds would have environments greatly different from Terran environments. Numerous implanted organs would give his warriors the ability to withstand and quickly adapt to hostile physical environments. However, it would be a waste to implant these organs into the short-lived Thunder Warriors. The Emperor wanted a stable, long-lived template. 

His next design was the Astartes, somewhat less powerful on an individual level but mentally stable and long-lived. Furthermore, the production rate for Astartes was significantly faster than that for Thunder Warriors.

*EDIT: The only apparent discrepancy with my idea is that the Custodes are the most powerful and the most long-lived. That is to say, the Custodes don't seem to adhere to the "that which burns twice as bright burns half as long" rule. This can be explained by a trade-off among three variables: 
Relative to the Custodes, the Thunder Warriors sacrificed power and longevity for a faster production rate. Relative to the Thunder Warriors, the Astartes sacrificed power for longevity and a faster production rate.*


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

There's a lot of things that don't make sense in the world of 40k. Why this and why that? I have a few ideas about the thunder warriors, laugh them off or build on them as you will

1) they were just tools. As you said they were stronger but less stable than astartes. I think he designed them mearly to unite earth and that's it. He had plans to unite the galaxy so let's not dally with being nice on one planet. Mercy shows weakness. He needs to make a name for himself as a powerful leader and ruler. So you use the biggest baddest soldiers you can create, and shock the world. Couple that in with (or just solely) the fact that terra could have been the hardest planet to unite. Techno barbarians with their own geneticaly engineered armies with a form of power armor and toys not seen too many other places could be its own reason.

2) the emperor either didn't know any better at the time, or had a specific plan. He did make mistakes throughout the entire crusade, I mea, he IS for all intents and purposes, dead right now. Either he was flawed or his plan was to become an item of worship wich he became. 

Guess the big thing is it was part of his plan, I think he just needed a strong army for a brief period to unite earth fast so he could get on to his bigger plans. Thunder warriors would have been bad in space. They were meant to have a shelf life, not to make the emperor look like an army of one. Just my twp cents


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Actually, I realized I skipped the issue of why the Thunder Warriors had to be culled 

Just because something is far less useful than it was before doesn't mean that it's preferable to cull it

I'm thinking of two possibilities 

1) At some point post-Unity, the Thunder Warriors rebelled (that would explain the extensive cover-up). Imagine a failed Thunder Warrior coup quashed by the Emperor and his Custodes. However, I would still need to think of an explanation for why such a rebellion wouldn't be common knowledge during the Great Crusade. How did the Emperor conceal such an event? Perhaps only a small portion of the Thunder Warriors attempted a coup. The Emperor ruthlessly decided to cull them all to play it safe. 

2) The Thunder Warriors were too aggressive and unstable to be used as a defensive/peace-keeping force on Earth. Why not have them support the Astartes in the Great Crusade? Why not send them to conquer planets with an environment similar to that of Earth (if adaptability is their drawback)? The explanation could be that the Astartes were simply more efficient. Resources spent on maintaining the Thunder Warriors could be spent on the Astartes to greater effect. The Emperor was ruthless. His assets had become liabilities, so he culled them.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Does anyone know if they were created from the genetic DNA of the Primarchs as well?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

They are short lived. Anyone know how long short lived is? If a thunder warrior has a useful life before psychosis of about 100 years then they would all be nuts and need to be disposed of soon after. What do you do with a bunch of bezerk killing machines(Apart from form the world eaters). Once they go nuts they will of course be killed off. They have absolutely no use after that point.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

But we're going from the opinions of a Thunder warrior who survived. It is quite possible that he didn't know the real reason, or the Emperor wasn't telling the truth or just the half-truth about why the Thunder warriors had to die.
As has been posted, a lot of 30k/GC has gaps in why it happened in that particular way. The only way to fill in these gaps would be to get an unfettered knowledge of what the Emperor planned and what the conditions and circumstances were he had to work with.
EG: with the Thunder warriors, it might be that they needed constant medical support to stop them from falling apart. When the new model Astartes come into the picture, less resource-intensive once they are made, it would make sense, pragmatically if not sentimentally, to withdraw the resourcesa from their forbearers and let them die; the better to spend those resources on an outcome that is better in the long-term. If the _Oucast Dead_ is right about the Emepror knowing about Horus' actions in advance, then the casting aside of the Thunder Warriors makes sense, as the Astartes are the tool that will give the Emepror the little hope he has of stopping a victory for Chaos.

GFP


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the implication is that the Emperor culls them, instead of simply letting them die out. That is, the Emperor doesn't just refrain from replenishing their number, he actively kills them (probably with assassins and custodes). 

I like the idea of a small group of Thunder Warriors attempting to assassinate the Emperor and his inner circle. Perhaps they found out the Emperor intended to let their organization die out. Some among the group accepted their fate, others were angry and felt betrayed. They argued about what should be done. The angry ones killed the "loyalists" and decided to keep the secret to themselves (for fear that most of the Thunder Warriors would remain loyal). They then attempted to assassinate the Emperor and take over, but of course failed. The Emperor distrusted the Thunder Warriors as a whole after the assassination attempt and decided to wipe them out without warning. Because of the Thunder Warriors' independent streak, the Emperor designed the Astartes to be totally loyal to their primarchs (and through the primarchs, to him). Of course, we all knew how that turned out. 

...or a simpler explanation: the Emperor knew the Thunder Warriors were too berserk to serve along-side the more disciplined Astartes. Friction and rivalry would almost certainly develop. Furthermore, I like the idea mentioned by the poster above (the Thunder Warriors needed constant medical maintenance to survive, more and more as they aged). They were no longer a cost-efficient option. The Emperor also didn't want to risk a rebellion of Thunder Warriors disgruntled at being discontinued. The Emperor tied up loose ends by culling them.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

I believe it has to do with the fact that they were more susceptible to the warp. On Terra, that wouldn't matter because at the time it was heavily warded against against the warp, but out in space there were no such protections, and so they might possibly be more easily corrupted and/or mutated.

Just my theory, cause usually when the Emprah doesn't explain stuff it's because he knows something he doesn't want anyone else to know, usually having to do with the warp.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

SoulGazer said:


> I believe it has to do with the fact that they were more susceptible to the warp. On Terra, that wouldn't matter because at the time it was heavily warded against against the warp, but out in space there were no such protections, and so they might possibly be more easily corrupted and/or mutated.
> 
> Just my theory, cause usually when the Emprah doesn't explain stuff it's because he knows something he doesn't want anyone else to know, usually having to do with the warp.


that's a very good theory
however didn't the techno-barbarian warlords the Emperor fought on Terra often employ warp-magicks?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> If the _Oucast Dead_ is right about the Emepror knowing about Horus' actions in advance, then the casting aside of the Thunder Warriors makes sense, as the Astartes are the tool that will give the Emepror the little hope he has of stopping a victory for Chaos.


Yes, Astartes would be the preferred tool, but the Emperor would be foolish to simply discard warriors that had helped him conquer his home planet because there's a shinier, better model coming out. If the Emperor had some foresight of Horus' actions, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to waste the Thunder Warriors. Though they might have been obsolete, they still had some use. No, if he culled them, I think it had to be for a better reason.

A) Some kind of rebellion or severe mental breakdown that made them too dangerous to be kept alive.
B) Susceptibility to Warp corruption.

Now, if the Emperor _didn't_ have any foresight of Horus' actions, then he could've gotten rid of them simply to wipe the slate clean and start anew with Astartes. Still, it's hard to believe a tactical genius would waste potential assets for such a mundane reason.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Still, it's hard to believe a tactical genius would waste potential assets for such a mundane reason.


I think opportunity cost
resources spent on Thunder Warriors could be spent on Astartes (assuming the resources were interchangeable) 

However this would only justify pulling the plug on the Thunder Warriors, not culling them. Perhaps the Emperor wanted to avoid the risk of a revolt by disenfranchised Thunder Warriors.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> However this would only justify pulling the plug on the Thunder Warriors, not culling them. Perhaps the Emperor wanted to avoid the risk of a revolt by disenfranchised Thunder Warriors.


Admittedly, I haven't read the Outcast Dead yet, though I don't mind spoilers in a good discussion. If the book suggests the Emperor could see as far ahead as the Battle of Terra, which is what I was getting at in my previous post, then I think he'd definitely keep them - they were bred to fight on Terra, after all. However, if the Emperor could only see that he'd need to fight Horus in space, then it makes sense to manufacture Astartes instead. But to _cull_ the Thunder Warriors, he would definitely need a good reason, and I still think it had to be something they did, either a rebellion, a sign of dissent, or because of some kind of threat they presented, whether intentionally or not (i.e. weakness to corruption).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> But we're going from the opinions of a Thunder warrior who survived.


:goodpost: This.

That is the most important element in this topic; that that knowledge was from the perspective of a Thunder Warrior. We don't truly know what the Emperor's plans were, or what circumstances were present. 

Although the _CV_ does state that the Thunder Warriors were _"lost to insanity"_, which could still ring true. Although whether it was intentional or not is another matter.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Admittedly, I haven't read the Outcast Dead yet, though I don't mind spoilers in a good discussion. If the book suggests the Emperor could see as far ahead as the Battle of Terra, which is what I was getting at in my previous post, then I think he'd definitely keep them - they were bred to fight on Terra, after all. However, if the Emperor could only see that he'd need to fight Horus in space, then it makes sense to manufacture Astartes instead. But to _cull_ the Thunder Warriors, he would definitely need a good reason, and I still think it had to be something they did, either a rebellion, a sign of dissent, or because of some kind of threat they presented, whether intentionally or not (i.e. weakness to corruption).


I think we both agree that there's a distinction between pulling the plug (simply allowing the Thunder Warriors to die out) and actively culling them

the justification for the latter has to be pretty severe 
I think it should tie to the Thunder Warriors independent streak, hard-to-control nature 

pulling the plug might have resulted in revolt (or perhaps a revolt did happen)


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

As we saw with the fighting between Custodian, Astrates, and Thunder Warrior, if the Thunder Warriors weren't significantly reduced in number by battle I doubt the Emperor would have the whether all to actually cull them. 

I suspect that the final battle which secured the Emperors triumph (cant remember its name) finished 99% of them..perhaps the manner of the last engagement made the survivor so bitter, all or nothing fight to the death? (which makes me wonder what on earth they were fighting?!)


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I hat using a dam phone to post this stuff. Had one hell of a post, got a phone call, and its all gone. Fml! Worked on it for 20 minutes lol!

I wonder if the thunder warriors would have sided with horus and been dedicated to khorne if they were alive during the final battle. Mindless slaughter is what they were good and and would have been better at if they lived to that point. That's one reason to kill them all if the emperor forsaw the battle of terra.

What use would they have been after terra was united? They weren't peacekeepers, and if they took part in the great crusade I doubt they would spare the humans and only kill the xenos. And the emperors reason for the crusade was to unite humanity not kill them. Their purpose was to kill. And that's what they did to the techno barbarians of terra, better than an astarties could I feel, given the technology at the moment. They had no use outside of uniting terra, and would be a huge hinderance if allowed to continue in service. How much resources or manpower would be pooled away from the crusade just to keep them in check. Now that's unforgivable.

Also the faster they all died off, the faster he could focus on creating the primarchs ( hopefully question answered Darkblade) and not have his attention wasted with the thunder warriors, that's another reason for the cull. The faster the thunder warriors died off, the more forces he would have for the crusade. I mean, their lives were long enough that they would have lived until the heresy as one did.

And on a tactical level, their loss was acceptable on such a level. During WW2 the russians had arguable some of the most brilliant generals, better even than the americans, germans, ect. And their greatest resourse was manpower and they used it! There were times were their soldiers would stand in front of tanks to protect them from weapons (yes, bubblewrap was actually used). And that was was more or less on a global scale, but nothing like the reunification efforts. Point being, massive losses suck, but if was completely fine and intended. Nothing that a generation or so of earth breeding couldn't fix.

Point being, the cull of the thunder warriors served many purposes. The faster they were dead, the more time, resources, and manpower the emperor could put into the crusade, and the more forces he could get ready, ones designed for the unique challenges that the thunder warriors just couldn't meet.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

The term cull could just refer to the concious aspect of knowingly letting the thunder warriors die off. Instead of actively killign them using the custodes or astartes, he could as several people have said just let them die, which to the survivors could still be construed as culling, without the active participation of the custodes or astartes in killing them.
Instead he just let them die off in battle or psychosis and didnt replace them. which technically still applies as culling.

I find the idea that the they had to be killed off to make the emporer look good ridiculous, i cant name specifics, but i believe in several books/short stories there are references to a large number of people who would remember the emporer conquering terra, and they would know that he had an army to help him, not jsut do it himself. He obviously didnt kil leveryone who could remember a time when the emporer didnt rule earth.

Also not sure if its been retconned, but wherent there references to the deposed rulers of those countries/societies that were conquered by the emporer allowed to rule and/ oir finish their terms, as long as they swore fealty to the emporer? this way he could slowly integrate them without having to deal with guerilla war as the leaders and warrioirs tried to get back in power.


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## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

What if it was more of a boast of his power killing them off. "look this lot just took over the world and one word from me gets them all killed now love worship and obey me"

That or him seeing traits of chaos in them are my ideas.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

My personal thoughts on the TW is that the method that created them was probably sloppy--necessitated by the need to create and maintain a large army army and the limited number of potential recruits.

Think about it: The Emperor started off as just a no-name Warlord amongst many. How many people did he have under his sway? 10,000? 100,000? 5 million people? He needed to build up a suitable army from a relatively small population quickly. This is where the Thunder Warriors came in. They were strong and easily created, but probably at the cost of genetic and mental instability--which was fine since the Emperor just needed them to conquer Terra and increase his nets for his Space Marine recruitment. Once he conquered all of Terra he had billions to choose from and thus could be choosier on who he could use.

Think of the Raven Guard during and immediately after the Horus Heresy. Corax used accelerated cultivation techniques to try to bolster his devastated Legion. I think the Emperor did something similar.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

stevey293 said:


> That or him seeing traits of chaos in them are my ideas.


Interesting. Or maybe they mutinied against him, not getting what the Emperor promised them in return for their service or something.

Maybe that's why he introduced the psychoindoctrination program into the Astartes, assuming he did not alter the memories of the Thunder Warriors as well.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

I haven't read the book in question (though I do plan to once I've caught up), but my personal take was that the Emperor culling the Thunder Warriors was a mercy or even an honor. And here is how I see it....

The Thunder Warriors knew only war. In the techno-barbaric mindset of the time, to die in battle was (perhaps, this is my assumption) a great honor. A Thunder Warrior died doing what he was meant to do.

A Thunder Warrior, perhaps all of them, understood that at the end of their (relatively speaking) short life lay madness. One could die on his feet, in battle or be put down like a rabid dog at some point in the future. 

Now, the planet is united, peace has some to Terra. Their era is at an end, there will be others (the Primarchs--true sons of the Emperor--and the Legions) to take up the mantle. Given the choice, I think being slain by the Emperor while still in possession of some mental faculties is much more desirable that being taken out after going berserk. 

From the point of view of the Legions, seeing your predecessors go crazy would affect morale. (No, you won't go crazy. The Thunder Warriors? Well, they were the beta version.)

That's how I see it, though this may change after I read the book.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

The emperor now having a seat of power to work from due to the savagery of the TW in battle was able to take time and produce a stable, longer lived soldier that could be used to "unite" humanity. During this time the TW likely showed their inability to garrison and police a world so the Emperor "retired" them. There are analogies from history...most trained war beasts, to include service dogs, were slain after the war was complete or their master slain due to their unpredictability. Also once he had the new model why keep them. That would be like the US Army keeping M1 Grands in storage in-case the M4 rifle needed replacement.



Doc


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