# Same damn suggestions



## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm tired of seeing the same freakin suggestions to Chaos Space Marine army lists. I don't know how it goes with the other armies because I never look in on those threads but holy crap it's gettin annoying over there in the CSM area. For any CSM army list poster reading this here are some things to know:

Obliterators aren't always better than a defiler

You don't always need a powerfist on a berzerker or plague marine champ

You don't always have to use a landraider as an assault vehicle

You don't always need to run defilers in pairs

You don't always need to max out special weapons

Sometimes daemon weapons are good

You don't always have to use the favored numbers

Sometimes dreads are good

Daemon Princes are not cliche

Typhus is good

Kharn is good

Lucious is good

Ahriman is good

Abaddon is really good

For anyone who actually cares to read this shit. Quit giving the same stock advice you can find on any of the other threads. Try to tailor your advice to the situation and the rest of his army. If he likes the defiler for god's sake quit telling him to drop it for obliterators. 

Anyways, I'm done. Just had to get it out :laugh:

Take it easy everyone


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I think seeing someone using Fabius would be a interesting game


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## HivefleetIngensus (Mar 3, 2009)

With the old nid dex, it used to be like this, but now, it's alot less so. Probably because now there is more than just two or three lists for nids in 5th ed. that are competitivve. Now there are quite a few.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I'd disagree with you on certain points, and agree with on others, but it does seem like there's almost always a 'right' answer for competitive play for CSM, which is pretty bad in my opinion. 

However, my only real quibble is that not using the sacred numbers is blasphemy!


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

You do have several good points 
Everything written below is for a "take all comers" list, so no special tailoring should be applied on the following.

Personally I think the problem with the CSM codex its crappy structure. Certain units are _that_ much better "on average". Take the DP as an example. Its 20 pts more expensive then the CSM lord and has a statline which is Aeons better. It should cost more then it does, thus its generally always the best choice of HQ.

The Troops is the big and strong side of the Codex. All of them are both good and useful if played and supported correctly. This is imho the only part of the FO chart that actually offers some chance of variation. One should probably be happy that this is the fact, they could have goofed that too...

The Elites more or less only have 2 playable units, Terminators and Chosen. Both can be customized to fit the game plan in a good way. Both tend to be very suicidal though...

The Fast Attack is a joke. None of the units in there are "good for their points" when compared with the Troops. On top of that they aint scoring. Bad.

The Heavy Support has a bunch of good options, all with their own perks. Obliterators does however cover the most threats by far thanks to their weapon morphings. They might not always be the best at a specific task, but they are *never* even close to the worst at them either.


To sum it up in a short way the book more or less seems to be written with the intention that you should play 1-2 DPs, cult troopers, perhaps some terminators, and a bit of Heavy support (most likely Obliterators since they are useful against everything).
All other units feels like "FO entry fillers", like that when the dorks that wrote it had included the units they personally liked they realized that it was too few entries, so they had to toss in a few more, which were randomly composed of lol and fail:alcoholic:


I personally HATE the 4th ed CSM codex. Not because its bad, because it aint. Its because its totally charmless. It has no character at all. You are more or less supposed to play CSM in 1 way, and 1 way only. If you fail to comply you get penalized with insane point costs on the models, and crappy rules. A killer combo that really tells you that youre doing it wrong...
This is the total opposite from the 3,5 ed CSM codex which was the broadest Codex GW has ever produced, which they for some reason had to replace...


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The problem with the CSM codex is that there are not very many competitive units.

- Daemon Princes
- Plaguemarines
- Khorne Berzerkers
- CSM
- Obliterators
- Defilers
- Vindicators
- Land Raiders
- Sometimes chosen
- Termicide

All of the other unit options are less effective for their points cost.

The new Tyranid codex is the same too. 90% of the codex is completely overpriced and unplayable, where as 10% of it is insanely cheap and effective.

Dont blame the players, blame the people who wrote the codex.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Lol. I'm pretty sure gamesworkshop doesn't care about 40k anymore. They're just lookin for money. 

Let's give tyranids a bunch of new ultra-powerful monstrous creatures so people have to drop 50 bucks a pop on them. Let's make the CSM daemon prince ridiculously under points so all the players will buy 2 of them.

And ya'll are right about them tailoring the codexes so that you have very few options when fielding a competitive list. GW has forgotten what the game is all about.


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

I agree with 95% of what you said Iron_Freak220. I think the advice that was given was how to run the unit "the best way possible to get the full use" of that unit. Also, 1 person writes the codexes so it is kinda difficult.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

yeah well when you have investors breathing down your neck you have no choice but to comply unfortunately. The soul of every company dies once it can be traded.....anyway concerning the CSM, I am going to run an army of Chaos with and yeah I'm going to say it Raptors (kewl conversion using DA models, wings, and a killer paint scheme I discovered and calling them the Ravenous Wing, can you tell I'm playing Slaanesh) and you may want to have a seat for this one: Possessed (because I have some really kewl slaaneshi ideas for conversions). Yeah I've heard the complaints about them but sometimes you just gotta go with what you like, hell I've lost a lot in my day concerning this game, but I also like to paint and display what I've created. 

Anyway to end this for novice players I recommend taking the advice of the old hats to avoid you spending all your money on units and watching them die or show how ineffective they are and then you're stuck with them until you can buy more and for young people with low or no income that especially goes for you. Experienced players can always find a way to make a unit work no matter how crappy, but even they run the risk of having that game winning streak start to wane and quick.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

It's pretty simple really, our codex blows hardcore, our psychic powers are complete shit compared to other factions powers, that's why no one takes sorcerers, 200+ points.....

Our havoks just aren't worth their points in a list that is already so expensive that you can't get enough variations of weapons in a take all comers list, so you tend to see more obliterators.

The codex itself blows, there's those good old loyal lovers of chaos (lot of them because of the heresy books and fluff), but otherwise no one would even take chaos anymore due to the aged and weak dex.

Essentially, until the dex gets re-released expect to see 1-2 competitive builds and the other unit choices get shouted down, if you want a fluffy game then sure, take posessed. If you want a competitive list then take them if you want to lose, it's the same case for many of their units.

Chaos needs some cool fast attack options, beserkers on juggernaughts again, noise marines on steeds, tzeentch chosen as sorcerers, not some beta crap like now, nurgle guys on palaquins, spice it up a bit, maybe even give them some sorta sky disc thing of coolness. 

Standard chaos marines really should have what they do now and maybe furious charge or some 'extra' ability to justify them, with the wolves cranking counter charge and BP + CC the CSM just suck, they're too expensive and too weak for their supposed role, hence why no one takes them.

Oh well, I'll end my rant here and just pray that soon a decent CSM codex comes out, which features a variety of possible options, up until that point I'll tell people more oblits, more dp, less everything else xD.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Chaos is the least fluff & tactic compatible army I've played yet. It's more than capable of winning, but only if you take all the cool-sounding units off of your list. I can see why few players take it up as a new army; there's only one or two builds that actually work. I've been getting my greenskins' collective butt kicked for ever, but they're ridiculously fun, so it doesn't really matter. To me, chaos is stuck in some unfortunate place between fun and competitive, but you can only get access to one part at a time, and not enough of it either.

And that's my griping.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Mechdar - Guardian Spam
Tri-lith - Flayed ones spam
Vulkan - Marneus Calgar
Lash - Possessed
Air Cav - Basilisk spam
Doom of stupidity - Tyrannofex
Nob bikers - Tankbusters

Every army has crap choices, and every army has good choices. Some crap units are better than other crap units, and some good units are better than other good units. Of course Archetypes are going to emerge for every army.

Chaos just happens to have a very good "Good list" and a very poor "Bad list" of units. So what? At least your codex was released in the last 8 years, you have plastic models and a tournament-winning archetype available to you. There are at least 4 codicies off the top of my head who don't have 2 or 3 of the aforementioned perks.

I agree with what I think the original posters idea was, which is to stop giving blanket advice to people who make it clear that for one reason or another, they don't want to play the archetype. If you're going to give advice, do the person the favour of actually listening to them.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

lol chaos dex is fun. Alot of the stuff just plain sux, like your aformentionoed Lucius, sure i love the character, but in battle even chaos lord with powerfist could be more useful. But...

ANY army that is run completely competitevly will have very few possible choices, because doh, they are using the builds that are found to be optimal. If you take chaos army that is inbetween competetive and fun, you can get some interesting results and variation. Want meele? Take all berzerkers. Want raged? take all noise marines. Want Lucius? Take just 1 dp. As long as you keep atleast part of army as the effective troops, you can mix the rest of it up and expect to atleast put up a fight, if you are using it well.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Chaos don't really have many competitive builds, just 1-2 really, at least what people consider competitive, it's also that the book is kind of stale/boring, as a result people just go for a select few power combos, but chaos is an all or nothing codex, you either have a rape team that slaughters all, or a fail team that barely kills a thing.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Is there another codex that has more than 1-2 tournament Archetypes that consistently places in the top 3?

What do you mean by "Boring"? It's a Codex... Codicies have points values, wargear options, FOC selections and some fluff... It's the same for everyone, isn't it?

And I'm fairly certain you can make a medium power army just as easily as anyone else, for example I know someone who plays Nurgle and wins/loses about 50-50. It's not a cheese list, just fairly fluffy and very robust.

All the complaints seem to be "Awmahgawd it's worse than last edition" rather than being based in any real fact, which is akin to going "Awmahgawd I can't use any of my Black Guardians anymore" or "Awmahgawd all my IG Doctrines have gone out the window... the IG codex is boring!". :ireful2:


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## randys_s13 (Dec 29, 2009)

Wow, did anyone read the first post??? I really don't get it the guy just wants people top stop giving the same advice, over and over again. There is nothing wrong with the Codex except the way you guys play it. I use raptors in my Zerker army, and I have great luck with them, oh and I don't take a single power fist either. Maybe you all should stop worrying about making your army ready for tournaments and just enjoy the damn game for once.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

However, Sethis, Chaos appears to have gotten the worst of this kind of cutting back. There is wargear and such yes, but otherwise almost all of the flavour that was there before is gone, along with making a bunch of units useless. This isn't an uncommon problem, but Chaos was hit hard by it. That's all me and these other people are saying.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Sethis's comment should be something like

"if it's a complaint about any other army I think you're full of shit, I love to sit here and say every codex is fine and that every comment is stupid, unless it happens to be of benefit to my eldar codex, because Eldar players are generally 'special'"

Also, for lols view my army post and the comments to it:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55750

Take special note of the first response to my post.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Nagash's post should be something like:

"I'm completely biased against anyone who plays Eldar, I think every single one of them is a retard and I have a compulsion to ignore everything they say because I think they're all whiney children"

Oh, wait, that doesn't actually add anything to the debate, does it? It's actually just a personal attack with no basis in fact, isn't it? Try not to do it in future Nagash, it makes the forums look untidy. k:

Jackal: What do you mean the flavour is gone? Can you give me some specific examples? I'm sitting with a copy of the Chaos Dex in front of me right now and it has a load of fluff/flavour in the front, it still has all the Marks, Cult Troops, Daemons and everything that it had before, so what's changed?


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Nagash's post should be something like:
> 
> "I'm completely biased against anyone who plays Eldar, I think every single one of them is a retard and I have a compulsion to ignore everything they say because I think they're all whiney children"
> 
> ...


Mono god lists before were both viable, fun, unique and entertaining; along with being competitive. Many options now that are fluffy are so worthless that no one will take them if they have any intention of winning a game, i.e. chaos spawn, raptors etc.

For example even, compare the current chosen with previous, previous chosen reflected their deity more so with special rules and so on, there was also other factions options available which have since been removed (Iron Warriors for example...).

There are two 'extremes' of list making, i'm stereotyping here for arguments sake. You have the pure fluffy list, which isn't very competitive and the competitive list which isn't fluffy. What has happened with Chaos is you either have one extreme or the other, any deviation inbetween is not at all fluffy or competitive, this isn't 100% true but it's quite accurate and as the codex ages it becomes more and more true.

Let me take the example of the sorcerer, you're looking at 100ish points for the sorcerer or similar for a daemon prince, the power differences are so startingly large that you would need to be out of your mind to pick the sorcerer over the daemon prince, and rather than getting the sorcerer for fluff reasons, you will find CSM players getting the prince and justifying it later because the power difference is just so massively huge so as to remove a choice even from fluffy lists. 

For example, previously CSM got veteran skills to distinguish them from normal marines, giving standard CSM a unique role and feel, as marines with a wealth of experience, this made standard CSM an interesting and unique choice different from their loyal counterparts, now they are essentially expensive crappy space wolves, normal marines do what they do and better.

Now, you wouldn't expect a chaos vindicator for example, to be at all similar to a loyalist vindicator, however now the only difference is daemonic posession, the wealth of interesting and unique upgrade options are gone, living mutating etc all gone and replaced by nothing. Worth noting that posession is still there unchanged, they just removed a heap of options for chaos vehicles. 

There was a whole bunch of other things they removed also, for example mark of Tzeentch used to mean you automatically passed psychic tests, which was competitive and fluffy.

Posessed used to get options for their mutations, making them powerful, tailored and entertaining. Obliterators were 0-1 which stopped spam and moderated their usage.

IF you want further proof, have a look at the old chaos book, try the book of tzeentch and see the wealth of options which made a powerful, balanced and fluffy list possible.

For a summary, sorcerers replaced basically everything if you took a 'tzeentch' list. This meant you had an abundance of sorcerers in your list and it made a really interesting list. You could also dedicate your vehicles to tzeentch (i'm using tzeentch to highlight my point but my points apply equally to the other gods in terms of variety).

Previously there was the main codex list and the 'four books' which allowed more customised and fun options, pure khorne, pure nurgle etc. Each of these customised lists were competitive, fun, fluffy and unique, as opposed to now, if you take all one cult troop type, you hamstring yourself and unless you are highly skills, invite yourself to an early defeat.

The 'main' or old legions of CSM also had their own books/customisations which further enhanced the aspects of chaos. Loyalists afterall have about 20 books . Chaos had one, but it was highly diverse, chaos coming to a battle could mean any of a 100 things and one never knew what they would be exactly.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

randys_s13 said:


> Maybe you all should stop worrying about making your army ready for tournaments and just enjoy the damn game for once.


your asking for too much I think, its why I don't bother going near the chaos section, its rather boring seeing the same old advice over and over and over again, even if the codex is a steaming dog turd.
"replace this for 2 lash princes"
"replace that for obliterators"
"don't bother with this take that instead"
"don't bother with that take this instead"
"if your not playing lash princes your not playing the game properly, get off my interwebz"


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm happy because my friends that I play with still let me use the old edition of CSM codex :biggrin:

p.s sorry about the complete lack of anything to add to the debate, i felt like bragging


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> I'm happy because my friends that I play with still let me use the old edition of CSM codex :biggrin:


I dunno, even if the new one is a steaming pile of dog turd, at least its not a steaming pile of french cheese left in the sun for a week to really get that smell to be gut wrenching.

but even back then it was all the same
iron warriors
iron warriors
iron warriors
beginner with black legion practically bullied by forum members to play iron warriors

back then I never saw GW sell so much silver paint.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

ah what can I say, I like Iron Warriors


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Jackal: What do you mean the flavour is gone? Can you give me some specific examples? I'm sitting with a copy of the Chaos Dex in front of me right now and it has a load of fluff/flavour in the front, it still has all the Marks, Cult Troops, Daemons and everything that it had before, so what's changed?


Marks are replaced by icons, and apparently dudes forget they're Khornate after losing the icon. Daemons are all generic with no specific god entries. No more veteran skills. No more specific god upgrades. Much trimmed down daemon weapons. List basically wants you to play Black Legion. Alot of fluffy choices nonviable. (Raptors, Possessed, Dreadnoughts, etc.)

All these things off the top of my head, and even more. Now, looking at another codex like Eldar or Space Marines and they get all sorts of fancy things to make them unique. CSM's don't really have enough to compete.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Yeah Masked is right. The 4th ed codex is quite a bit more efficient as far as just making a list goes. But it really did lose all of options that made 3rd ed CSM's fun to play. Ya'll remember daemonic gifts? Those were so fun. You could customize anybody to be just the way you wanted. Now you really don't have any kind of unique upgrades for the units. And if you actually want to win a game you have right about 2 builds you can use.

And as far as the possessed, raptors, dreads, etc go. it's not like you can't play with them. You just don't if you want to win anything.

Although I heard that the reason they nerfed the CSMs and took away all the gifts and whatnot was because people couldn't figure out how to use them. They would give 150 pts or w/e of wargear to a champion. So I guess we are all to blame for the crappy new codex.  Whoops.

But still. It does get pretty boring playing the same list over and over again.


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## Sandbar (Feb 5, 2010)

I really think it depends on how you think about your csm army. 

Years ago, a powerful build was discovered that maximizes lash of submission. Suddenly units that don't support this type of army become overlooked. Indeed, those points you spend on a squad of raptors would be better spent on oblits because they work so much better with your lash princes. But think about what raptors can do with proper support: 

for 120 points you have 5x raptor with 2 meltas (same cost as termicide unit). This is a very cheap squad that can provide surgical melta strikes where you need them the most. The small squad is assaulty enough to require your opponent to commit some cc or lose his shooty squad you attacked. So for 120 points you are popping a transport, doing some damage to what's inside, and tying up another unit in cc for a turn (or two depending on how many resources your opponent can afford to spend on them). This can be an amazing tactic if you run an assaulty csm army as your opponent is going to be spending half his time thinking about how to protect his flanks from those raptors hiding 18" away getting their meltas warmed up.

Want your raptor squad to really cause a splash and force your opponent to commit a lot of resources? Raptors are decent in cc but any decent assault squads are going to chew through 5 raptors pretty quickly. Give the raptors a champ, and suddenly those khorne berzerkers your opponent sent in to clean up your raptor squad are getting obliterated by a lord of change. 235 points and you have popped a vehicle, locked the contents in cc, and changed your opponents sure thing into forcing him to really commit to that greater daemon bashing around the middle of his army. Knowing that you are capable of doing this with raptors will make your opponent treat them as a much higher priority than 135 points would suggest.

I'm not saying you need raptors in your army, I'm just saying there is a world outside of lash of submission, plague marines, and oblits.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I agree Sandbar. But your raptor strategy is really only going to work in a game that's around 1000 pts or less. Anything more than that and they just don't have the numbers to stay alive. But you are also relying on a very large amount of luck to make your raptor plan work. Being within close enough distance, hitting all your meltas, penetrating with your meltas, then destroying the vehicle, then having the opponent disembark within charging range, then assaulting and wounding, then surviving until the next turn, then rolling correctly for your greater deamon. 

So my point here is. Any unit can be good if yer the luckiest guy alive, but most likely that's not the case. Which brings us back to the current debate (not even the one I started the thread with  but no worries) that the new CSM codex really has only a few viable units that can perform decent without extreme luck.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

the codex has its faults, but so does every codex its just progress and shit happens.

in the way that people build their army, i think of a WD article from back in Medusa V in Standard Bearer, the moral of the article was that alot of people forget that 40k is also a hobby, yes people get it to game but people also get it because it looks kick arse, so when someone says they are taking Possessed, a Defiler, or a Crazy Converted Dreadnought, though not the most game worthy or reap worth their points, it may be the simple fact they like the look of the model, which to be fair, is totally cool in my books

competitively, play test, see what you like, then decide, sure ask peoples advice, but the final decision should be your own

my rant, yes its over

WKG


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## the Brayn (Oct 30, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I'm sitting with a copy of the Chaos Dex in front of me right now and it has a load of fluff/flavour in the front, it still has all the Marks, Cult Troops, Daemons and everything that it had before, so what's changed?


Yeah, you obviously haven't ever played Chaos if you are making this claim. I'm sorry but we do not have the same daemons that were there before. They cut out all of the varied daemons and gave us 2 generic daemons in their place. They split off all of the other daemons into their own army which cut our choices of units by about 1/3.

Tell me, where are the Bloodthirsters, Horrors, Discs and all of the other varied daemons that you apparently see in your CSM codex that I seem to be missing from mine.


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## randys_s13 (Dec 29, 2009)

Well now I'm just confused, maybe you guys have a different codex then me but I see loads of flavor, fluff and good choices. Look at the amount of troops we get compared to SM, Tac squads and Scouts that's 2 choices we have basically 6 troops to choose from, from tactical to close combat. Lets see elite choices SM technicaly have more but we are looking at the same things here, Dreads Termis and veterans, HHHMMMM we have that too, don't we? Now on to fast pretty much bikers, assault squads and land speeders, oh no they have stuff we don't have boo hoo I'll never win a game now, Wrong, we have assaualt squads, there called raptors and Raptors even have better leadership, Oh you don't like raptors, there no good for assault? Then how do SM players use theres??? Ya we both have bikers but can there bikers have demons pop out with them, NO. Well looks like I found it, they have land speeders, that's got to be it, thats why we cant win games, how fool hardy of me. But seriously we have the same list as space marines they just look different, Space marine players just tend to figure out new ways of useing it were all you CSM players are stuck and that's jusr sad.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

CSM does have a lot of troops. And you're right, the elite choices are pretty solid (with the exception of dreads.) Add in the bikers and raptors, the oblits and daemons, and the army grows harder still. Chaos does have the potential to be a unique, interesting army. But it never gets used that way. The interesting units are rather weak, compared to units who seem over-powered, the classic example being daemon princes. The potent units like termies and oblits are so over-used that it can be quite a challenge to create a unique list. 

The CSM codex is strong yes, but the character and mutability that used to prevail in earlier versions is gone. As The Brayn pointed out, Daemons are a prime example. Gone are the different stats for different daemons. Gone are marks, in favour of icons. Gone are all the various tank upgrades and daemonic gifts that enabled a truly individualized unit. CSM is strong, but it can be quite difficult to get advice or an army that isn't just like the last one. And that is jusr sad indeed.


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## the Brayn (Oct 30, 2009)

@randys

I think this has gone way off topic from the original poster's intent. His question was whether or not it was just the chaos army list forum that had a generic 1 or 2 army lists being suggested as the only competitive options. If you look into the CSM board you will quickly see what he is referring to.

My previous comment was specifically directed toward the item that the CSM codex has just as many options as in previous editions which it definitely does not since they removed all of our god specific daemons and replaced them with options that don't even let you customize their abilities.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree the CSM advice is stale, I apologize for getting off topic.:fool:


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

randys_s13 said:


> But seriously we have the same list as space marines they just look different.


Exactly. So what's the point of CSMs anymore if we are just the same as regular SM except we look different. We used to be able to customize our units like no SM army ever could, but now we are just the same as them with a few more troop choices and a lot less vehicle choices.


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## the Brayn (Oct 30, 2009)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> but now we are just the same as them with a few more troop choices and a lot less vehicle choices.


To be fair, when you turn traitor you obviously aren't going to take all of your equipment and vehicles with you... I hope that sarcasm comes across appropriately.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Mayhap there should be some more evil-exclusive vehicles. At the very least, some mutated/posessed/whatever tanks that go beyond 'Daemonic Possession" for rhinos.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

all I know is the letter I got about this matter better be true. That they want to make an individual codex for each of the major powers. However we all know if this true it's going to take a decade and ofcourse we won't see Slaanesh until the third release (Khorne first, Nurgle second). 

But you know the other very plain play this way army - Necrons. I don't play them, but I have played against them and have read their codex quite a bit and yeah not much flavour there either.


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## theluc (Jan 2, 2008)

*to wait again*

the main rule set has a life span of approx 5 years, so in a few years maybe an other chaos marine codex will be out, for the time being we are stuck with the flavorless book. 

Its really annoying how it turned out for traitor marines, sames lists going on and on. some players had tried other lists to change it but don't work out as well as the reapeat lists out there.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

theluc said:


> the main rule set has a life span of approx 5 years, so in a few years maybe an other chaos marine codex will be out, for the time being we are stuck with the flavorless book.
> 
> Its really annoying how it turned out for traitor marines, sames lists going on and on. some players had tried other lists to change it but don't work out as well as the reapeat lists out there.


If we're lucky we'll get a new codex just in time for the next edition again and get nerfed.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

With the 2 Daemon Princes thing, has anyone actually seen anyone use a real DP for their DP? The six or seven players I've met with them have Nightbringers because they're cheaper and thinner, hence easier to hide behind tall trees and buildings. I think that the Nurgle Daemon Prince is a fantastic model, and the normal Daemon Prince is pretty good stuff too.

Midnight


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

for my Slaanesh Daemon Prince I'm using Orion from the Wood Elf range. I'm going to paint the skin pale white, his eyes purple, black hooves, and the leaf like rest I'm going to paint in a swirl of pink, white, and dark purple.

But back on topic. I do find it very strange that probably the most diverse army in 40K got such a stale, plain revamp. I mean anyone remember the first Chaos box set that came out for second edition. Yeah Chaos was so huge they released a box set with all the rules, magic and books you needed. An entire boxed set!


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

VanitusMalus said:


> But back on topic. I do find it very strange that probably the most diverse army in 40K got such a stale, plain revamp. I mean anyone remember the first Chaos box set that came out for second edition. Yeah Chaos was so huge they released a box set with all the rules, magic and books you needed. An entire boxed set!


This has always, for some retarded reason, been in waves. 2nd ed was a huge ocean of diversity. Then came 3d ed codex which almost was as dull as the current one, then came the 3,5 ed codex which many a CSM players refer to as the "one true codex" which also was a vast ocean of diversity. Then after that came this piece of sh!t we have now which is the 4th ed one. 

When reading that it seems like the next CSM Codex will, once again, bring diversity to the forces of the Gods, something Im personally wishing for so all neat "Cult armies" can pop back out, and other legion specific ones too



After doing some thinking (didnt see that one coming, right? )Ive come to this conclusion:
If you aim to give advice you dont aim to give bad ones, right? If the person that is asking for the advice has special demands you of course should take those into account (like including the converted Raptors or whatever). Other then those special cases you want to give advices that are good, right?

Sadly the CSM book is made in an extremely shitty way. There are a few "good" things in it, and thus all advice tends to include them, simply because there is more or less no other viable options. You pick the desired Cult Troop unit, then the rest of the list buys itself, unless you want to make a shitty army of course, but then again, whats that for an advice?

This makes for very identical advice to all players, and there really aint much to do about it until the next codex hits the shelves. The book is booring, thus the advice will be booring too....


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

VanitusMalus said:


> for my Slaanesh Daemon Prince I'm using Orion from the Wood Elf range. I'm going to paint the skin pale white, his eyes purple, black hooves, and the leaf like rest I'm going to paint in a swirl of pink, white, and dark purple.
> 
> But back on topic. I do find it very strange that probably the most diverse army in 40K got such a stale, plain revamp. I mean anyone remember the first Chaos box set that came out for second edition. Yeah Chaos was so huge they released a box set with all the rules, magic and books you needed. An entire boxed set!


The thing that struck me was that it was always such a diverse army - but most people used that to build thematic lists, which could still be competitively viable. You could make a single god/legion list, and with the combined CSM and demons stuff you could make a themed army that could have real diversity. With demon included, and the ability to have so many types of cult units (cult terminators/bikers ect.), special units for diffent legions ect. - it was just beautiful.

Now, trying to make a single god list in either CSM or demons limits you to just a handful of units (extremely few if you want to be somewhat competitive too), which makes it rather boring to try to be thematic - and that really sucks to even say.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the matter. Hopefully next time they'll actually put out a more decent and versatile book, and though it will never be the same as when CSM and daemons were one, at least they can put all the old options back in.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

On the Codex issue; I _vastly_ prefer the previous Codex for flavour, fluff and variety. That said, the new one - whilst massively lacking in all those factors - is vastly more coherent and logical in layout. What bugs me most about the current Codex: CSM is that the IG and SM Codices that followed it are _hugely_ superior in terms of choice and variety. Those two Codices read like books that were written by someone who loved the respective armies, whereas the CSM one was written by someone who got given the job and would really rather have been writing a Codex for something else instead; when the person who wrote it feels it necessary to basically apologise for it on his blog, then you pretty much know what the score is. 
_*sigh*_
We'll just have to hope the next Codex: CSM redresses the balance and brings back the flavour, big-time.


On to the original question...
_"*If he likes the Defiler* for god's sake quit telling him to drop it for Obliterators."_
The part in bold is the important part. There will always be a divide between people who make up an army based on what they like, whether it be for fluff, aesthetic or whatever other reason, and those who build an army purely to win games. The former will go for the units they love _because_ they love them, regardless of how they perform on the table, and the latter don't see a problem with having Khorne and Slaanesh units side by side it if means they win more often. 

Neither approach is more or less valid than the other; in any hobby involving someone playing against someone else, you'll see this same syndrome. The best parallel I can think of drawing is with MMO players in any game with a PvP element; some will roll a class because they like the idea of it, the look, the concept, whatever; others will roll that same class purely because received wisdom, mathhammer, or whatever tells them that class is the one that will win. It all boils down to why you play the game, and in any game there will always be the min-maxers and the fluffaholics, both trying to co-exist.


_____


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