# How can you beat eldar with tsons??



## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

So my main rival is my friend jasontracy, who has a kick ass eldar army that I have never been able to beat,

he has a wave serpent and some dire avengers with their blade storm 

2 wraith lords
an avatar

a bunch of warlocks/farseers idk how many of each, they all annoy the crap out of me lol

I want to make him suffer terribly cause I never win and having Tsons my nickname is slow and useless lol


soon I have a tournament and he will be one of my hardest challenges and I need some advice, can anyone help???


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Beating them with a pure TSons army will be difficult, though not impossible. Your biggest worry will be you're lack of manoeuvrability compared to eldar. TSons are really set up for taking on MEQs, so taking on the lighter armoured eldar usually means they aren't used to their fullest potential, however....

Firstly, TSons have one of the best Anti-MC things you can get - Gift of Chaos. Quite simply, any time you're within 6", your Aspiring Sorcerers can cast this twice. Even against T8 Wraith Lords, a roll of 6 always turns them - casting it twice gives you a 30% chance or so of instantly taking one out, and getting a spawn in its place. Having a couple of your Asp Sorcs. with this will help keep you from getting bogged down with unhurtable enemies. It also does a number on Eldar characters/warlocks, who are usually only T3 and gets around their annoying invuln. saves.

Next, you'll need to get a bit more manoeuvrable - think about rhinos for all your units, if you have them. gives you a bit of an edge getting around. If you have a havoc squad (not pure TSons I know) it can be useful for taking out some vehicle threats from a decent range, and putting the hurt on his guys. 

Taking a Demon Prince, or even two, can really help up the ante for your army. A winged MC flying around can cause a lot of havoc in enemy lines, and they'll take a lot of punishment to kill. Having a DP or two really helps take the manoeuvring edge away from the eldar, and having warp time and Doom bolt, they can dish out the pain.

Perhaps you can tell us how big the tourney army is (1500 sort of thing?) and what you have available, and we can give you a bit more specific advice.


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## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

Alright,

well I have a rather large army however this tourney is small because its at hobby town(a store) that has beginner client-tell so we are doing a 1k tourney.

so far for 1k

i have the following:

DP
mot
wings
warptime
doom bolt

tsons 9+as sorc

tsons 9+as sorc

3 oblits

at 999pts


I have total for use would be

a termy squad reaper autocannon/heavy flamer

3suads of tsons

20 csm

landraider (lass)

1 rhino 

defiler
sorc
dreadnought

lord of change

flamers

most of which is not very good lol.


and the opponent is very good.

now if the avatar, wraithlords and warlocks and farseers are in one squad,

how can I hurt them with the wraithlords at t8 and my bolters at only s4 ap3??

can I target the weaker in the squad?


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

The problem with counting on psychic powers against Eldar is Runes of Warding, which is so good and so cheap you have to assume your opponent will use it. 

Killing the Farseer solves this problem, of course, but it can easily shut down many of your nastier tactics for a large chunk of the game.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

amjlopes said:


> now if the avatar, wraithlords and warlocks and farseers are in one squad,
> 
> how can I hurt them with the wraithlords at t8 and my bolters at only s4 ap3??
> 
> can I target the weaker in the squad?


Uhm you guys should read the rules a bit. MCs like Avatars and Wraithlords can not join units or form units, period. They opperate alone. 
Even if they move together they are not part of a unit since its illegal for them to try to make 1 together.

With that said it should ease your problems with shooting the squishy elves:wink:


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Against an Eldar player that knows what he's doing, I would say that that list will not survive that long against the Eldar. Firstly, Eldar would (well, should...) have more numbers than you. Buying all these upgrades for an alread expensive army is usually not a good idea. You only have 4 squads, and that's not a good thing. 

Firstly, I'd drop one of the Tzeench squads and add in one of the Regular CSM squad. I know it's not excatly fluffy, but sometimes you have to sacrifice fluff to win at something.  It may not be that strong as the Tzeench squad, but you can add in a Missile Launcher or something to increase the squad's usefulness (adding an A. Champion with a power weapon would even be better in usefulness). 

Secondly, it may be best to drop one of the Obliterators. 3 is good, but a bit uneccessary. If they get attacked by a powerful unit, they're screwed no matter what, so it's best just to limit that squad to 2 Oblits. Now with the remaining points of the Oblit and the difference between the Thousand Son Squad and the CSM squad, you should be able to buy another unit. It depends on how much you have left I guess. 

If you need to lose a couple of more points, then getting rid of a Power from the Deamon Prince might be a good idea. I know it kind of defeats the purpose of getting the MoT, but it'll be worth it. I'm sure. 

Edit: Maiden Maniac is right. The Avatar and the Wraithlords can't join the Farseer and the Warlocks. Hell, the Avatar and the Wraithlord can't even join each other!


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## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

thanks for the hints im glad to know that those guys and be in a squad!!!!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Isn't this like asking how weaponless guardsmen beat orks?

The tzeentch armies strongest attributes are psychic powers and a 50%inv save. Against eldar, both of these are kind of moot.

If they bring eldrad, you'll have a solid fifty percent chance to cast spells or lose a wound. Awesome. And if they bring dire avengers(and they will) your good invulnerable save won't make a bit of difference.

As to spice up your army, my only real advice is to drop all the tsons. They really are very very expensive for fifth edition. Also doom bolt is redundant on the prince, if you have to use two psychic powers, use wind of chaos as an alternative.

Although between vanillas and tsons, I can't really fathom which one is less worth the points. I'd repeat what was said previously about getting more bodies on the field.


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## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

Alright,

I guess I just picked a really bad army then lol


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## BrotherNuprin (Oct 13, 2008)

Ok, sounds like you're feeling sorry for yourself for picking Thousand Sons and having an opponent who play's eldar. Brother, I feel your pain. I'm a staunch Tsons player myself and I usually game with an eldar player who's been playing longer than I have, and who's also a powergamer. He's a good guy, and we're friends, but he doesn't play for fun, just to win. So you can imagine the pains I go through when I play this guy. And some of the lessons I've learned.

First examine your forces. What do you have in your army? And what do they do? How do they work together? What happens when you lose a unit? Are you going for that double tap range? Are you holding back and let them come to you? Try to imagine how your army works in your head. Just see your army work flawlessly and how it all holds together.

Then come back from that crack high and then take a look at the eldar's army. What a good eldar army has are intricate pieces that need each other to work wonders. It's called synergy. By itself, the pieces are crap - they can be out gunned (banshees), out close combatted (I know, not a word, sue me), out maneuvered (Wraithguards). But put them all together, an eldar army is a great army, and a hard army to beat.

But they all need to work together. So, take a look how your eldar player beats you, and see what pieces did what. Then think about what would happen if you took away an unit. I'm not saying that the whole house will come tumbling down; just that now the eldar has to recover without an asset the player was counting on.

Now, as for the Thousand Sons, Gul Torgo is right. Any eldar player worth his salt will have a fareseer with runes of warding. Especially playing against against Tsons. That being said, Psychic powers are a waste, too hazardous to use. In my army alone, about 100pts are wasted on spells and powers. So minimize the point sinks. Your Daemon Prince doesn't need to have a spell (sigh...), or your deep striking Termi Sorcerer doesn't need to have a power.

All of the following is personal opinions, so take with a grain of salt.

Next, concentrate your forces. Don't spread too far from each other. Have all units able to cover each other (or at least one other unit) and be able to "gang" up. Let the eldar have the mobility game, you're now in a "refused flank" or "rolling thunder" mode. 

You can charge your Tsons, even after you double tap. Nice surprise to someone who's not expecting it. I usually do it deny the extra die for assaulting. Just remember, you're at I1 when charging (slow and purposeful means you're moving through cover - but no matter, as most eldar units are I5 anyway). Better to get a little roughed up than to get punched in the 'nads hard.

In my army, I have an chosen unit w/ 5 plasma guns, mounted in a Rhino, and outflanks. Though very pricey, they always take down what I aim it at. Consider an unit like this with plasma, meltas or even flamers (5 flamers getting and average of 16 - 25 hits to T3 models is going to hurt, a lot).

My Rhinos are great for mobile cover and taking the first hit. In a Thousand Sons forces, they're almost a requirement.

As for everything else, I'll just re-iterate what everyone else is preaching. Terminators w/ MoT are fun. Throw in some pfists and combi meltas and go at it. Try to make them 5 - 6 man squads. Obliterators are good. 2 in an unit is optimal. Havocs are overpriced. Vindicator are great (I've had mixed feeling on this one) but need some knowing to use effectively. Predators are also good, but Obliterators are better. Landraiders are more specialized. I tried this unit, and all I can tell you is that it's a great assault boat, and a good anti tank weapon, but not both. Know what you want to do with it and stick to the plan.

I play pure Tsons, so I don't use other types of units too often. But here's a run down:

Possessed are fun as hell, but being overpriced and too random makes it untenable to build a strategy around. Dreadnoughts - likewise. Raptors are interesting, but there's better choices. Though in my next game, I'm going to have a unit of 6 raptors w/MoS and 2 flamers. Bikes are too expensive, but if you're into summoning and deep striking, then a biker unit with MoN will make sure deep strikers gets to where they need to get to. Other cult marines are really good, just know how to work in tandem with them. CSM with any mark is ok, but the cult marines are better. STAY AWAY FROM SPAWNS.

Ok, too much ranting and not enough sleep....

Hope this helps and good luck against the eldar. May Tzeentch favor you. :shok:


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## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, I really needed it!


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

My preference would be to scare the hell out of him by fielding 2 defilers and sit back and nail his farseer and council straight out, if he's playing eldar his longest range gun is 60" and that's if he has the points to filed a Fire Prism, which against T'sons most eldar players go for more Psykers than anything, use this to your advantage, tou have a 72" Battle Cannon and Daemon Possession plus you can nail things in CC with it, on the other side he is fielding Wraithlords they can be equipedd with a max range gun of 48" which is the EML 72" kicks over that easy so if he bunches his MC's near each other easy pickings and wounds as no matter which way it scatters if it does it'll hit something remember it only has to hit the base they are on as that is the size of them 2 shots of that a turn by turn 3 when they are close enough they should be dead and the seer council gone if you targeted them due to Instant Death. Some players just don't like defilers as they see them too expensive and weak armour personally I see them as wonder machines.


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## amjlopes (Mar 9, 2009)

I agree I love the defiler, 

but I only have one and the tournament is this saturday

and we are play tournament strict with only a 48 by 48 inch table


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Do you have a vindicator? I field two to cover my advance with my sons, and it works extremely well.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Ahh but still it will help if you get 1st Turn after all you can knock out seer councils easy.


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## Bobgenrut (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't have much knowledge with Tsons, but I think adding a few oblits no matter your cult is a bad thing.

If it is the slow and purposeful thing that has gotten you on the ropes then maybe mechanising is a good idea. As it will provide you with some serious mobility which will allow you to get those objectives and also run up and rapid fire him. But will chew up ALOT of points in smaller games.

Maybe just some standard CSM with a MoT would be a good idea, they are cheaper and more mobile:so_happy:, which will help with mechanising. 

Hope some of this helps. If it does level my daemon :mrgreen:


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