# Interested in TK after a loooong WHFB hiatus



## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

I have to be honest and up front here, I haven't played WHFB since 1998 or so. Yeah it's been awhile. 

I started to try to get back into it around 2006/7, had most of my Eshin skirmisher army bought and painted, then it became an illegal list. (Still ninja rats are pretty awesome, imo). 

So now here I sit much older - and still no wiser - but missing the game play and the setting of WHFB. And terribly smitten with the Tomb Kings.

I have no TK models yet, and I'm just starting my long-term plan. But this TK crush has gone on for a good while (the last few months) and hasn't abated, so I think it's more than a momentary thing. 


With all that said, after doing some reading I think I'd really like to look at a magic-heavy and shooty TK list. Honestly I'm not even sure what current tournaments are using points-wise, but I'm guessing somewhere around 2000-2250?

I like magic, mobility and shooting. I don't need a kitted out King that's going to crash headlong into unit after unit destroying things in close combat. (Though after reading up on Tomb Guard units, those sound pretty keen - and I like the look of the figs). 

I'd definitely like to field multiple Liche Priests. Really the more spellcasting the better for my tastes. I'm aware of the inherent risks associated with it, but it's just cool and that whole curse-of-the-mummy motif that goes with it has a lot of appeal to me. I'm still reading up on the three possible lores (Nehekhara, Light and Death) and weighing the feel of each.

I really love skeletons in any setting, and skeleton archers (hopefully boosted by some magic, to boot) may be the bulk of my troops. Though I also like the light cavalry as well. 

Beyond that, some models just seem awesome to me, and I'd like to work toward incorporating them (skull catapult, casket of souls, tomb guard, shooty ushabti, necro knights, necrosphinx, chariots, and i really dig the model for High Queen Khalida) - though since this is still my spitballing stage, I'm definitely open to hearing the pros and cons of all those. 

I understand that there's a perception that TK isn't one of the stronger armies. I'm okay with that. I still like to be competitive, but I also enjoy a mix of play style and look as much as competition so I'm aiming at a good mix of all three.

So what say you, seasoned WHFB generals of Heresey? Whether you're used to playing with them or against them, given the parameters above, what are some recommendations to get started on a solid-but-fun magic heavy / shooty / mobile TK army?


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

I picked up TK recently and am a big fan  I have a plodding infantry army that revolves around a buffed up Tomb Guard unit, but I hear that shooty/magic TK does just fine.

There's really nothing in your spiel that sounds unreasonable or bad to me, except the Ushabti. I love the look of those models, and giving them honkin' big bows was a fun concept, but they're overpriced and don't fulfill any particular role in a TK army.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Madlister said:


> I have no TK models yet, and I'm just starting my long-term plan. But this TK crush has gone on for a good while (the last few months) and hasn't abated, so I think it's more than a momentary thing.
> 
> I bet a lot of people own an expensive army the don't much like and wish they had been as wise as you.
> 
> ...


I've only played them a couple of times and, I have to say, won handily. The only thing that gave me any trouble were the Sphinxes, and I now know how to deal with them so I do not anticipate much difficulty next time I face them.

Mobility is probably the easiest thing to deal with. Multiple units of three charriots for core (charriots cannot march anyway, so your charriots are not loosing anything) strike me as the way to go, backed up with horse archers (are they core? No idea.).

Skeleton Archers strike me as easy VP for the enemy, but if you can make your magic work, they might hold their own.

Which brings me on to magic. It's all about the Casket of Souls and trying to find room for a Light wizard or two after paying your Lore of Nehekara tax.


The Batalion is probably not a terrible place to kick off, along with another box of chariots and your choice of Characters.


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

I feel like I'm missing something whenever I see light mentioned as a better lore than Nehekhara. Nehekhara has equal or better augments imo, and it rezzes too. Sure, Birona+Speed of Light is a sick combo for anyone (if you manage to get both, much less cast both), but I'd rather have smiting+cursed blades anyway.

Smiting also makes your archers far more useful - it basically turns them into Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows, with no penalty for cover/skirmishing/etc but no AP.

TK works by stacking buffs. Your heroes all buff your units. Your spells all buff your units. You can't sneeze without bringing dead skeletons back to life... It all goes together.



Caveat: Skullstorm is pointless, and it sucks to have our "top" spell be the first one I drop for the signature.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

As I recal, the Lore runs something like:

0. Augment - Unit makes a move.
1. Augment - Unit gets killing Blow.
2. Augment - Unit gets 5++.
3. Augment - Unit gets multishot.
4. Hex - Enemy unit treats all terrain as dangerous terrain.
5. Hex Enemy -STR and T.
6. Magical Vortex - strength 4 hits.

Now, to me, Spells 2 and 4 are the stand-out there. The signature spell is great, except that it's something everyone else can already do without a spell, so really it's like you just have one fewer spell, and two fewer power dice than everyone else.

None of the spells seem to have any real synergy with one another and I suspect it's only the Lore Attribute that makes people happy to use the Lore (although, obviously, I may be wrong, I'm not a TK player). On balance, of the three Lores TK have, I think Light is far and away the best.


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

Deathypoo said:


> I feel like I'm missing something whenever I see light mentioned as a better lore than Nehekhara. Nehekhara has equal or better augments imo, and it rezzes too. Sure, Birona+Speed of Light is a sick combo for anyone (if you manage to get both, much less cast both), but I'd rather have smiting+cursed blades anyway.
> 
> Smiting and Cursed Blades were part of why I wanted to go magic + shooty. Plus the Arrows of Asaph rule. Smiting is also why I had considered Ushabti with bows. The consensus is that Ushabti kind of suck - I had thought babysitting a unit of 6 of them with whatever Liche Priest ends up with Smiting, and maybe a nearby unit of 20 or so archers, giving them all Multiple Shot (2) might make them worth having on the board. Still not sure if even that would be enough though?
> 
> ...


Still really chewing on everything here. And trying to continue to educate myself on it. I really do love the look of the army, and the ancient Egypt gone awry sort of feel. And bringing back fallen troops to reinforce the ranks just seems pretty entertaining. 

I really like the idea of the spell casters boosting / augmenting the rank and file. Neither the hero or the troops are game changers on their own, but with good use of both together (

Plus I figured running several wizards, I'd have enough augments on hand to keep regenerating a lot of the rank and file.


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

Azezel said:


> As I recal, the Lore runs something like:
> 
> 0. Augment - Unit makes a move.
> 1. Augment - Unit gets killing Blow.
> ...


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

Azezel said:


> 3. Augment - Unit gets multishot.


That augment also gives +1 attack in CC (including mounts). And it can affect your whole army (24" radius) in one cast, buffing AND rezzing every unit... I'd say it's our best spell.

Also, while it sucks to not march in the movement phase, having a double move is technically better than a march as you can do anything a marcher can do, but you can also do a move+reform or vice-versa... assuming you get the cast off.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

TK can be competitive with specific builds. Tournament lists are generally 2400 (ETC standard) or 2500 in order to allow for fully kitted lords and adequate numbers of models for certain armies 9some armies do not play well at or below 2250 or 2000 points). 

The special character Necrotect (Ramhotep) that allows a chosen unit (one unit selected at the beginning of the battle) to re-roll failed armour saves combined with necro knights is one interesting combo I've seen work extremely well. That character gives his unit hatred and frenzy and gives the necro knights an effectively boosted armour save sufficient to make him worthwhile, even if he often dies in combat. While necro knights look expensive, they get 3 wounds each (due to the monstrous mount) and 5 close combat attacks (2 at WS4,S4-S5 on the charge and killing blow and 3 at WS3 with poison and S5) plus a stomp attacks against infantry and war beasts. 

Generally, TK are struggling and probably the weakest of the four 8th edition army books but seem to have certain favourable matchups. The weakness of the army is generally due to low initiatives and relatively low weapon skills of certain units (skeletons) and heavy reliance on characters (kings and princes to boost the weapon skill of the unit they are in and necrotects to give hatred) and magic (including crumbling if the hierophant wizard dies) to keep the units alive and effective in shooting and combat. The army relies heavily on getting magic augments off to regrow units (magic lore), march, and increase killing blow. The death mask (prevents enemy units in range of the character with the mask) is very good if one can win combat. With the much lower points costs of skeletons, some people are arguing for skeleton warriors as the base of the army over the much more expensive Tomb Guard. However, another thought is to run a lot of skeleton archers due to the special shooting rules and the fact that they are only slightly more expensive than warriors and the shield save of the warriors is of minor value. The thought is that the extra arrow hits pay for the higher cost per model. 

Chariots ranked with a tomb king have also been considered and, if regularly, augmented can be very annoying due to regrowing woulds consistently over time but they do not do well if tied up in combat. 

The warsphinx and necrophinx are both worthwhile playing given how tough they are but they are vulnerable to dwarf and empire cannons. 

The casket of souls is nearly always played due to the boost in casting dice and the bound spells it contains. Similarly, a hierotitan is commonly played because of its boost to casting for wizards in range and two bound spells but it is also vulnerable to high strength shooting and poisoned shooting. 

Some really like the catapults and others feel that they are hard to protect and hit or miss. When they hit a unit not immune to psych, they can be very effective. 

The entombed beneath the sands mechanic looks interesting but is not very effective in practice except occasionally with the sepulch. stalkers. 

I find carrion to be under-rated given their 3 attacks, flying ability and points costs and scorpions to be over-rated. 

One problem the army faces is that, instead of giving a resurrection spell, they gave a lore attribute that only regrows D3+1 wounds per unit (1 wound for animated constructs) affected by a Nehek augment spell. For units in combat, that is generally not enough to keep those units alive long enough to be effective tar pits and wear down the opponent as much as would be desireable. By comparison, vampires just got a D6+level for infantry and 1+level for certain non-infantry models signature spell with a +1 wound restored for a character lore attibute. 

The best spells are signature, #1 killing blow; #2 5+ ward save; #3 +1 attacks (including shooting). The problem is that the boosted area effect versions of #2 and #3 are over-priced and thus risky to cast and the #1 spell is only applicable to one unit. The signature spell gives the lore attibute benefit to units in combat but, otherwise, has no benefit for such units (giving units in combat +1 to hit or something would not have been unreasonable given the army).


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks for all that info, Olderplayer. That's a lot to digest in one post, I appreciate that.

So I may start working my way toward a goal list of 2400 points to start. 

In regards to chariots - would it be reasonable to save points on putting a king in the unit, and just use those points toward a second unit of chariots?

I'm kicking around the idea of having 2 HLP for my Lord choices. I've heard that one solid strategic approach to WHFB is to pick a couple of phases you want to excel in and work around those. I love the whole Curse of the Mummy aspect, so TK Magic phase is one I'm interested in loading up on. That and mobility with things like Chariots / Horsemen, plus the signature spell for some positioning.

Also, do anyone have much experience using big chunks of skeletons as a tar pit for opposing death star type units? I know they'll get mowed through. But once the initial charge is soaked up - can 2-3 augments / turn regen enough skellies to keep them in the fight? Would giving them spears and augmenting them with killing blow be worthwhile, or is it one of those things that sounds good on paper but doesn't work in practice?

The more I read about Warsphinxes (and Necrosphinxes), the more I'm sold. Plus the models just look awesome. 

Speaking of awesome models, I'm also really interested in Necro Knights / Stalkers. Because the models are awesome. The undead hooded cobra thing is just too cool to pass up. One thing I'm a little unclear on is the Transmogrifying Gaze attack. Does it compare its S1 to the opposing Initiative value for calculating wounds? Am I reading that right? If so, it seems like that would be a very specialized skill with rare occasions to be useful. I see that the two titans and the sphinxes have Initiative of 1. Do most Large Target / Monstrous Creature type things tend to have similar values?

Also with Ushabti, I know there's a lot of discontent tossed their way and that they've effectively been replaced by Tomb Guard for that Hammer sort of role with the new book. But what about a unit of 6 with Great Bows and babysat by whatever wizard that draws Smiting - to give them Multi-Shot (2) with those big S6 bows? Another thing that just sounds better on paper than it is in practice?

Learning a lot in this discussion so far. But still have a lot yet to learn, especially before I can reasonably start committing money to the army.


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