# SM Codex



## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I just received my new SM codex. I was let down by the increase of the 'cheese' characters that can be used. Any Chapter has a Marneus Calgar(proving cloning does exist ) so what you have to name him something different( I'll just name him 'Bob'). Plus the 'super' scout and the 'its crazy not to use this tank enhancing' tank commander. After seeing previous 5th codexes, I had first thought that 5th ed would bring some of the mega enhancements down a bit (DA, BA Orks etc). The mix and match of the special characters make the chapter upgrades of 4th ed extremely simplistic. (although I do admit I did fancy having a Chapter with 6 Dev squads...).
I guess I'm a little too old-fashioned and too rigid with Chapter styles/backgrounds.

'Vanilla' Marines indeed! More like 'Marble-ripple-swirl, with Pecans, hot fudge and a BIG-FREAKIN Cherry on top' Marines :threaten:

And I thought 12-14 year old 5th edition SM players were gonna be easy pickings!!:no:

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Couldn't agree with you more. The amount of 3+ inv saves available makes me sick, especially on multiwound eternal warriors, the fact that the librarian is hands down better than the chaos sorc from the get go, and other things irritates me quite a bit. However, the single thing that bothers me the most is that the new SM codex is nothing more than a slap in the face and a big 'fuck you' from GW to all the chaos players out there. After boning our codex and stripping 90% of it from us, they turn around and hand so much stuff to marine players it isn't funny.

Thanks GW :fuck:uke:


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. The amount of 3+ inv saves available makes me sick, especially on multiwound eternal warriors, the fact that the librarian is hands down better than the chaos sorc from the get go, and other things irritates me quite a bit. However, the single thing that bothers me the most is that the new SM codex is nothing more than a slap in the face and a big 'fuck you' from GW to all the chaos players out there. After boning our codex and stripping 90% of it from us, they turn around and hand so much stuff to marine players it isn't funny.
> 
> Thanks GW :fuck:uke:


Hail,
Yep thats how I feel, the amount of custimization from supposedly 'Codex' Chapters not only plays wrong(real world) but takes any of previous fluff/background and says It all doesn't or count. Take a player for over 8 years of gaming, putting together his, say, Imperial Fists Chapter together, making sure to stick to dogma and background, and now some new kid with a big chubby for yellow SMs, goes for an Imperial Fists chapter with like a Forge father IC and KorSarro Khan as the other and can snub his nose at the veteran player, saying he's just as fluffy as the veteran. 

As a side note , I personnally had the opportunity to talk to Jervis Johnson back just after the launch of 3rd edition, and specifically asked why the lack of fluff in the new Codexes from the massive tomes present in 2nd ed. His answer was that they (GW) was of the mind to allow more flexibility of background and to ease down 'flame-wars' on the new thing called the internet about such matters. Seems things are going full circle again. For me finding and sticking to fluff was more than just reading in spare time, its what got me hooked on playing with their brand of little plastic soldiers (and having more than a few beers) around a table.

As a positive side-effect of this rant, I will totally enjoy beating any SM army that is completely abusive. 

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

World Eater


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The new codex is one of the worst put together things I've seen. They add in all these Overpowered units and characters, raise the prices on other things to make it look "fair" and away you go. The writer had a stiffy for ultras and he didn't want them to be left with "too few" characters, liek clagar, tigurius and cassius, so he allowed them to have Shrike, Khan and He'stan too. It's the powergaming bible. 

At least the chaos codex made a balanced list but got rid of all the fluff, this makes an unbalanced powerlist and makes up new fluff too..... Bull-toodie


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## 10228 (Sep 8, 2008)

Well I like the new codex...._please don't kill me_ *cowers in corner*

Anyway, I am still going to stick with the fact that special characters should only be in their own army, and I will not field any that do not fit my armies theme. But anyway, I still think that this codex is a huge improvement on the last.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> However, the single thing that bothers me the most is that the new SM codex is nothing more than a slap in the face and a big '$%^& #$%' from GW to all the chaos players out there. After boning our codex and stripping 90% of it from us, they turn around and hand so much stuff to marine players it isn't funny.


My Imperial Fist Lysander wing got screwed over, but I am not totally put off. I like a lot of what I see in the new codex. I play Chaos and had to redo my chaos army as well. So this is just round two for me. Do you think I'm looking forward to the next Necron codex? Round three.

GW did not give the SM all the best stuff. Have a look at the sternguard and compare them to 10K sons. Chaos comes out ahead in this match up.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

njfed said:


> ...GW did not give the SM all the best stuff. Have a look at the sternguard and compare them to 10K sons. Chaos comes out ahead in this match up.


Its not that much about "the best unit" part. All troop choices in the CSM list are valid and good options *but thats it*.
Heavy support has some options atleast helping army variety a bit atleast.
4 elite options(with possesed and dreads utterly useless so basically 2) and 2! FA options is just booring as fudge. The SM list is boiling over with options in these 2 FOslots. 

_That_ is a reason to be utterly displeased with the diffrences between those 2 lists. Im not going to get into the fluff part too here aswell(there is another thread for it).
The SM list is at first glances atleast propperly worked trough, the CSM is a hasty "lets get it over so we can go to the next project" work :angry:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> Its not that much about "the best unit" part. All troop choices in the CSM list are valid and good options *but thats it*.
> Heavy support has some options atleast helping army variety a bit atleast.
> 4 elite options(with possesed and dreads utterly useless so basically 2) and 2! FA options is just booring as fudge. The SM list is boiling over with options in these 2 FOslots.
> 
> ...


We have two FA options? I thought we just had raptors...Like seriously we have bikes? *checks his codex* Oh we do just have raptors for that amount of points.

And our heavy support is decent, nothing terribly special(defiler is the only standout unit. But nobody uses it unless it's a HUGE fire magnet) and obliterators are decent(75 points per guy is just about right...but the toughness drop REALLY sucks)

And yeah they churned out a new chaos codex because they didn't edit the old one. The response across the 'new fangled internet' was probably startling as everyone f-ing hated this codex. It's a bad codex. Their's no way around it, nobody wants to play as "Huron mcfireclaw and his merry band of angst marines", people want to play as "thousand year veterans of battles uncounted, fighting for their future indulgences and trying to regain their humanity after the cold, uncaring imperium thrust it's ideals upon them." Or you know "coo-coo-crazy marines" Whatever works.

Oh and thousand sons blow. Everybody gets a 4+ cover now, and with so many ork players around the ap3 bolters aren't as mean. Although with the rise of the new codex they're coming back into style...

Last thing on chaos, but they nerfed units that nobody used, AND brought up the points. Why? Do they NOT want to sell these models?


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## Damned Fist (Nov 2, 2007)

> My Imperial Fist Lysander wing got screwed over, but I am not totally put off.



???? Yes, as a Imperial Fist player I will miss my tank hunters abilities, but come on now..., Lysander is a one man wreaking ball! I played a game with him last week and he stood up to 2 daemon princes!! 2+/3+ saves, 4 wounds, eternal warrior, master crafted thunder hammer that is strength 10 and adds +1 to vehicle damage. That is a lot of "ouch" for 200pts.:victory:


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## son_of_a_horus (Jun 23, 2008)

Just as a quick thought, the new SM dex is fairly wrong, overly hard and disgustingly over powered. So, as I keep telling my Emperors Children, listen to the wise words of Dave Lister:

"Let's get out there and twat it"

Oh, and I don't care HOW hard a marine is, my Doom Sirens will own them no matter where they hide.

DEATH TO THE LAPDOGS OF THE CARRION LORD


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Oh and thousand sons blow. Everybody gets a 4+ cover now, and with so many ork players around the ap3 bolters aren't as mean


I have to disagree with you on this one I think. My Tson record in my sig speaks for itself as far as this goes. Yes, Orks are our biggest fight now but they are not unbeatable by any means and marines are still the number one opponent we will face regardless. And my Tsons are very adept at killing marines. Just ask Damned Fist (yeah I said it :laugh: )

To be clear, I don't really have a problem with the new Chaos codex as such. It is fairly balanced overall and has a bunch of sweet options to commend it. But when held up to the new marine book it is a kick in the nuts to any Chaos player. Twice the size, far more unit options, options that we lost given to the marines (AV13 -useful- dreads for example), the fact that librarians get hoods AND 2 powers FOR FREE when I have no access to hoods and must buy any power I wish to use, 3+ inv saves that are unbelievably abundant (and a 3+ save on a multiwound eternal warrior is just fucked up, period), etc, etc.

The way that DA and BA and Chaos went, I had hopes that SM's would go the same way with a tightening of the rules, a removal of the bs options, and an overall balancing of the list compared to the previous 5th Ed ready armies. And this is plainly and blatantly not the case. And what makes it worse is that we all know that every codex from here out will follow this same pattern and codex creep will once again have its way. Consider me disgusted with GW right now.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

As a Space Marine player I have to say, I abso-fucking-lutely hate the new codex. In my estimation the 4th ed. was balanced against the other armies more fairly than the new one, even with the chapter trait system (which I love and modelled my army around, now that's screwed). This 5th ed codex seems like it's just been a disorganized switch around of points costs and abilities with a bit of overpwered Named Character goodness thrown in to try and appease all the players like me who had thier armies become WYSIWYG illegal when the new book was released. It's all because they want to sell more models. They have brought out a shiny new codex and a bunch of new (overpriced) models to try and bring in the next generation of gamers. The sad thing is that these new gamers will have no idea how badly GW has been screwing us all because they will have never known anything more than the new stuff. 

It's bad for us all. Space Marine players as well.

And I have to agree about the CSM codex. GW started the unlimited fuckaroo with that book and it shows no signs of stopping.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Damned Fist said:


> ???? Yes, as a Imperial Fist player I will miss my tank hunters abilities, but come on now..., Lysander is a one man wreaking ball! I played a game with him last week and he stood up to 2 daemon princes!! 2+/3+ saves, 4 wounds, eternal warrior, master crafted thunder hammer that is strength 10 and adds +1 to vehicle damage. That is a lot of "ouch" for 200pts.:victory:


He is still worth taking, but I now have 10 terminators sitting on a shelf that I can't field with him any more. I was actually liking the idea of putting him with a command squad and giving them all storm bolters. Lysander with Feel No Pain. *Giggle*


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I just figured it out!!

The new SM codex is balanced, I mean YOU Can't Possibly Use ALL those nifty Characters in one list !!



BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I think it will come around that the new dex is faily balanced, only time you shuld ever see all the cheese come out is in an Apoc game, and lets face it, at that point everyone is throwing Velveta on the table.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

its only cheese if someone choses it for abusive purposes.

in any case the problem is never the codex, the problem is the evil player choosing


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

You bring up a great point Stella. What I find funny is more poeple at my FLGS have been talking tactically that Shrike is the most broken of the new characters.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

djinn24 said:


> You bring up a great point Stella. What I find funny is more poeple at my FLGS have been talking tactically that Shrike is the most broken of the new characters.


he does look like the designers weren't concentrating when creating him


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

They had to much blue flashing before them to concentrate on the other characters being made.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

I've been playin SMs for a few years and honestly I like the new codex. I also liked the hell out of the last codex because it let me field 6 Plasma Dev squads. Something this new dex won't let me do. However, aside from the broken characters (which I personally don't use because none of them syncs with my Azrael model) I think this new dex is awesome becuase it gives SM players more tactical flexibility, and in reality that is the SMs real strength...IMHO at least lol.

Thumbs up for the new dex k:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Captain Galus said:


> I also liked the hell out of the last codex because *it let me field 6 Plasma Dev squads*. Something this new dex won't let me do.





Captain Galus said:


> However, aside from the *broken characters*


thats hilarious


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

I would also like to add that I personally wish the Chaos Marines codex was a big as the SM dex...firstly because I think with 144 pages you'd HAVE to squeeze some character in there somewhere...and secondly because every chaos player I know gives me the ****** eyes when I pull out my new dex :threaten:


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## akiasura (Jun 13, 2008)

The issue with the SM codex isn't really the power of the characters. It's the fact the whole codex revolves around these characters. Why? What kind of army relies on a few heroes?

Also, how do you justify ANY SM hero being as strong as a Deamon Prince? Deamon Princes are made up of not only chaos lords (already stronger then the average space marine captain, but not a leader space marine captain), but the successful Chaos Lords. In general the strongest chaos lords are all deamon princes. How can one of the special characters do that much damage?

Ghazgkull I can see being immune instant death. He is the greatest ork prophet, and orks grow for all of their lives, depending on their status. There is no telling how tough he is. Tyranids I can see, because they have impossible biologies. They are huge creatures in most cases, capabale of destroying tanks or a space marine in close combat. Deamon Princes are immortal warriors, half materuim, half immatueruim.

But Space Marines? There is nothing to suggest that a space marine can take a direct hit from a lascannon and keep on trucking. A dreadnought sure but a regular marine? Come on now!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

akiasura said:


> Also, how do you justify ANY SM hero being as strong as a Deamon Prince? Deamon Princes are made up of not only chaos lords (already stronger then the average space marine captain, but not a leader space marine captain), but the successful Chaos Lords. In general the strongest chaos lords are all deamon princes. How can one of the special characters do that much damage?


its easy to justify, the fluff and rules are written by people who have hard-ons for marines


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> its easy to justify, the fluff and rules are written by people who have hard-ons for marines


"pass the kleenex, I thought of a way to make Clagar even better!"

What really pisses me off though is that 5th ed was made to Limit min-maxing armies and marines get a special character that allows you to do it ( kantor with sternguard). How are special rules that promote powergaming fair?


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

Lol, Chaos players......Why are you so bitter of the new SM? Did you not realise you can take two demon princes for less than 300 pts practically? or maybe 300 on the dot....regardless.....Chaos you still have a GREAT list that WILL still give SM players trouble. ALL of your troop choices are great...all of em...If it's not t5 FnP plaguies....it's 4+ invuln AP3 bolter 1ksons, or just 40 bolter shots from noise marines if you stay still ? or the heres 50 attacks on the charge zerkers all at str5 i5. I understand you have now fast attack, but who needs that when, AGAIN, you can have 2 demon princes kitted out for dirt cheap, that can pretty much run through tactical squads like nothing in CC, because you will always have warp time on them. 

Chaos should not be complaining IMO, marines finally have something to say, HEY! you chaos and eldar players! we can actually fight back now! Our drop pods are meant to be what they are in the fluff now, and our captains are actually useful. 

Sorry if I offended anybody, but it annoys me when people get pissed off because now their lists have competition. Rant over.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Chaos had competition before. Now we have assfuckery. They took most of our cool, fluffy options in the name of streamlining the rules, and then gave them all to the Loyalists. Perhaps when they're done wiping their chins after catering to the guys who picked up BT when Codex:Armageddon came out and never looked back, they'll realize their mistake, but by then it'll be too late and we'll all be FORCED to take two Lashing DPs, forty Tsons and six Obliterators just to keep up. GW pulling insanely (and I do mean that literally) biased crap like this is half the reason I quit to begin with. I suppose as long as Marines sell as many units as everything else put together, the head honchos will keep this type of shit up, and Marines will continue to sell as many units as everything else put together. Does anyone else see a pattern here? The studio sure doesn't.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ok, besides with the almost unanimous thought of 'wtf gw', i dont personally see the problem, cant everybody get together with their lil' gaming groups and make some home rules to offset the biased rules? i mean we can easily NOT go by the new SM codex, or for CSM players to use the same point equivalency from the new SM dex?

obviously this wouldnt work for tournaments. but for the average lets-get-together-&-play-a-game game.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

The trouble is that we shouldn't HAVE to go hat-in-hand saying "Excuse me, I know you want to win games as much as the next bloke, but could you please deliberately nerf your list to give the rest of us a fighting chance?" Furthermore, that entire scenario presupposes that you don't game with a lot of people possessed of an "in it to win it" mentality. You shouldn't have to play a particular army or a particular build to be competitive, but that's how it always seems to work out. Much as I hated the loss of options in the CSM 'dex, I understood it, because with fewer options comes reduced potential for brokenness. I was happy that they were trying to take that approach. But then they turned around and ass-raped us by giving all that and more to the Smurfs and their ilk. So colour me a bit miffed. And, to be honest, a bit scared. Am I going to be forced to shelve my army of choice and pick up the Loyalists (again) just to avoid the frustration of a 10:1 loss ratio? Say it isn't so.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Well hell now CSM players know how we felt when you all had 50 of each option and we have two or three. Honestly while you dex is unfluffy your armies if anything got tougher in the new dex and while yes our dex did get strongwer as well, it only did so through special characters which I do not like. When did having fun and playing games go to a bitch fest everytime something changes, change is good folks, it keeps the game fresh and a live. Yeah we all lost models in the new dex, some of us more then others (Trust me I know and can feel pain on that one), but its all about adapting.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I only received my new dex a few days ago and I really like it.

It will change the shape of loyalist armies, for example razorbacks! Superb only 40 pts makes a mobile marine army possible again.

I haven't tried cheesing out a list yet, but overall nothing looks too broken apart from the special charachters. But they are no worse than DP's used to be and more expensive.

I think i'll wait before condemning it completely.

And as another point I have three CSM armies none of which will suffer particularly against this lot IMO.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> Honestly while you dex is unfluffy your armies if anything got tougher in the new dex and while yes our dex did get strongwer as well, it only did so through special characters which I do not like.


Our armies got substantially weaker in the new dex. Like...I can state as a fact, that I can easily make a list out of the old dex that is stronger than the new one. Easily. Obliterators used to have more weapons and T5(And cheaper), possessed weren't useless as all hell(And cheaper), our dreadnoughts were less crazy, and we had fluffy legion and god-specific rules.

Our list was made weaker, but many of us strove on...but some of us dropped that disgusting potato and made an entire army of counts-as bt :biggrin:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Much as I hated the loss of options in the CSM 'dex, I understood it, because with fewer options comes reduced potential for brokenness. I was happy that they were trying to take that approach. But then they turned around and ass-raped us by giving all that and more to the Smurfs


That is exactly the point. I didn't care for the loss of 80% of our options from the old Chaos codex but at the same time I understood it. The loss of those options made it easier to make a list, far less confusing, and in general a tighter codex. What has all us Chaos players upset is that they did completely the opposite with the poster boys and just loaded the smurfs up with choices and options, some of which we lost for balance sake. Perfect example is the sm librarian. Same starting points as a chaos sorcerer BUT right off the bat he comes with a psychic hood and 2, not 1, 2 powers FOR FREE. The Chaos sorc has no option of anything remotely resembling a hood and has to pay for the single power he is allowed. How is that fair or balanced?

And the sad part is that the entire book follows these lines.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> Well hell now CSM players know how we felt when you all had 50 of each option and we have two or three. Honestly while you dex is unfluffy your armies if anything got tougher in the new dex and while yes our dex did get strongwer as well, it only did so through special characters which I do not like. When did having fun and playing games go to a bitch fest everytime something changes, change is good folks, it keeps the game fresh and a live. Yeah we all lost models in the new dex, some of us more then others (Trust me I know and can feel pain on that one), but its all about adapting.


I missed the bit in Codex: CSM v3.5 that let us field an Eternal Warrior with a 3+ Invulnerable save. Anyway, I agreed that, all things considered, we had too many options in the previous incarnation of the 'dex. That they took them away was, for the most part, probably the right thing to do. That they turned around and gave them all to you? Not so much.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

You don't have to tell me to adapt. Been doin' that since 2nd edition. Heck, I even enjoyed playing 3rd edition Chaos Codex, because of the challenges that the weakened codex presented. The 4th ed Chaos Codex was not a problem either. All the power-mongering was point related. Your average CSM could be augmented with Furious charge, tank hunters and counter attack, but would raise his base cost from 14 to 23 points. A big difference for model who can die the same way the cheaper one can. The options in the new Marine Dex, doesn't say, pay for those nice abilities say at +1 point per marine per squad. And then you can mix and match within a combat squad two different abilities. And this is supposed to 'make up' for past sins?

And the point of not choosing to play cheezy was brought up. Yeah ok. By allowing abusive characters with no rules regarding them, very few indeed will 'do the right thing'. Perhaps if the codex had a limit based on points(like they used to) for certain powerful characters like need to play 1500 points or more to field so and so. Calgar could be fielded in a 750 point army. How you gonna stop him with only 750 points of stuff. Oh I know, You field one too! 
How about this, just an idea. If you choose a certain character who has chapter traits, you must have 2 troops that must use his traits. Just an example of not totally taking away from the new dex but streamlining a little bit to encourage more normal composition.

I had already thought that there was already way too many Loyalist marine players out there. This will not help the case.


BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Damn skippy.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Damn skippy.


I've been saying that a lot recently. weird...

I will admit I find Chaos hard to beat as they are competitive but Before they were way overpowered. Fluffy as hell, which was great, but there was the potential to have a lot of Broken-good armies. The new one got rid of a lot of options to make it fairer but the codex lost all flavour. it was dulled down to 4th. ed marines level and then the SM codex was bumped up to a brokenness way higher than the last ed. chaos... It doesn't even feel that it was playtested right....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> and then the SM codex was bumped up to a brokenness way higher than the last ed. chaos...


are people saying its broken still because of a couple of VERY expensive easy to kill characters?

or is it just kick the new codex year?


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree with Stella. People see all these new things, but they are all VERY expensive, as well as easy to kill. a squad of 5 stern guards are 125 pts, they die just as easy as marines do and, in all honesty, aren't that great. Big whoop we get str 4 ap 5 bolters that ignore cover saves. The only good thing I see with stern guards is str 4 ap 3 gets hot bolter rounds....but honestly...its still not that great when held up to the ap 3 bolters thousand sons get that DON'T get hot. Vanguard vets are a joke. Termies are still very expensive, but are actually worth their points now with 3+ invuln storm shields. People complain about Marneus...but he is 265 pts !!!! Chaos can honestly get an equivalent of him for 160pts or less in a Daemon Prince, that can move 12, and cause instant death because he is a monstrous creature. The new codex is great sure, it boosts our tactical squads, which is definitely needed, because 280 pts tactical squads was bs and no one can say a single troop choice with transport shoul be damned near 300 pts, but it is not the fucking phenom that is sweeping the 40k planet. We get some great stuff, but you have to drop some serious points into them to get their worth, and sometimes they're not worth it period (Land Speeders). Here is a list of the htings that marines really got people might want to complain about

1. Drop Pod Assault
2. Pedro's ability to do a min-max army (but in my opinion a waste because sternguard are not worth their points)
3. Heroic Intervention (sounds great! but for this to work effectively you're spending around 250+points for a squad that will die in CC just as fast as regular assault marines)
4. Free special and heavy weapons in tacticals (but thank you GW for throwing marine troop choices a bone, having a squad be 280 with transport is sickening...absolutely sickening)


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Not just the characters but chaos have to pay for their special and weapons, BT, BA, DA and SW have to pay for them, I hear drazorbacks are cheaper than the norm now and have a lot more options on them, They get veteran assault units similar to BA, they get Deathwing rules from DA and they Special dev squad sergeants, The same equipment for two armies have different rules and the New codex has the improved version. The codex is just a mix'n'match of all the good stuff from othre codices, plus a good bit of new stuff and no apparent drawback bar a few higher costs


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> Not just the characters but chaos have to pay for their special and weapons, BT, BA, DA and SW have to pay for them


as do we, a 10 man squad with a Missile launcher and flamer still costs us 170pts, for DA it would cost 165pts I believe


Lord Reevan said:


> I hear drazorbacks are cheaper than the norm now and have a lot more options on them


DA (admittedly with less options) and Space wolf ones now cost the same, and those options cost an arm and a leg, so whats the problem?


Lord Reevan said:


> Special dev squad sergeants


umm.......what special devastator SGT's?


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I thought they got either fire control or higher BS.... I think it was a rumor from a while back. If I'm wrong forget that point.

Last time I checked I could've sworn the DA razorbacks were 50 base and Even if the options are expensive that doesn't mean they're useless.....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> I thought they got either fire control or higher BS.... I think it was a rumor from a while back. If I'm wrong forget that point.


yep, all they get is combat squads


Lord Reevan said:


> Last time I checked I could've sworn the DA razorbacks were 50 base


50pts isn't much of a difference really, if you have a razorback with Twin Lascannons and extra armor from the marine codex, its only coming out as 5pts cheaper, thats pretty much negligible 


Lord Reevan said:


> and Even if the options are expensive that doesn't mean they're useless


Twin-Linked heavy flamers aren't really the most useful upgrade in the world, unless your playing on a proper board with a proper amount of terrain (50%+ minimum)


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I love flamers though
We use about 65% terrain on our boards too...

It's all opinion though. You like it then good on you. You can do something I can't. I'm not saying what you say is wrong, Just I'm not a fan of the codex.... I don't like the writer either. in the interview he seemed like a bit of a douche....


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

BloodANgels89 said:


> I agree with Stella. People see all these new things, but they are all VERY expensive, as well as easy to kill. a squad of 5 stern guards are 125 pts, they die just as easy as marines do and, in all honesty, aren't that great. Big whoop we get str 4 ap 5 bolters that ignore cover saves. The only good thing I see with stern guards is str 4 ap 3 gets hot bolter rounds....but honestly...its still not that great when held up to the ap 3 bolters thousand sons get that DON'T get hot. Vanguard vets are a joke. Termies are still very expensive, but are actually worth their points now with 3+ invuln storm shields. People complain about Marneus...but he is 265 pts !!!! Chaos can honestly get an equivalent of him for 160pts or less in a Daemon Prince, that can move 12, and cause instant death because he is a monstrous creature. The new codex is great sure, it boosts our tactical squads, which is definitely needed, because 280 pts tactical squads was bs and no one can say a single troop choice with transport shoul be damned near 300 pts, but it is not the fucking phenom that is sweeping the 40k planet. We get some great stuff, but you have to drop some serious points into them to get their worth, and sometimes they're not worth it period (Land Speeders). Here is a list of the htings that marines really got people might want to complain about
> 
> 1. Drop Pod Assault
> 2. Pedro's ability to do a min-max army (but in my opinion a waste because sternguard are not worth their points)
> ...


Hail,
Last time I checked, My DP can't instantkill unless the model is T3. Also our CSM squads are also 280 points with weapons and transport. With the similar stat lines and capabilities/equipment, why is 280 points TOO much for SM but REASONABLE for CSMs?
And you forgot 2 more points:

1) The tank commander that makes Daemonic possession look bad, Adds BS5!, and saves from stun and shaken! A predator or Land Raider is gonna be nuts!!
2) The scout enhancement leader who acts like a Vindicare assassin!. His wounds are rending!, he picks the target of his wounds(bye-bye Asp champ) or he can help the heavy weapon in his squad (Heavy bolter or Missile launcher at BS6!)
And at 70 and 50 points respectively, they are not overpriced and give a very big Cheese bonus, that could only make Velveeta's profit margin go off the charts!!

World Eater


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## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

I agree, tellion is retardedly good, but name one ultrasmurf character that isn't. my biggest gripe is the complete nerfing of Lysander. Of couse you can sit there and say YAY! I can reroll all the shot in my heavy bolter dev squad, but then his storm shield, termi armor and str 10 thunderhammer are going to complete waste. You can almost buy 2 dreads for the cost of lysander too!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You also forget about your Options. You get Obliterators, which can take on any and all. They have crap movement? So what, they can move and Fire Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, and even be used a counter assault unit to some extent, with Powerfists.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Lysander can absolutely SMOKE two Dreads in CC. Or three, for that matter. Or a couple of Carnifexes. Or anything else I can think of. You call that NERFED!? And as for Obliterators, they'll shatter like glass if subjected to anti-tank fire. I mean, they're a two wound model with T4 for 75 points. Sure, they can dish it, but they can't take it. Not that I'm saying they're underpowered, but, well... you can buy three Obliterators for 225 points. What can you buy for that in the new Loyalist 'dex?


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## Duci (Sep 26, 2008)

the new codex is over powerd 
yesterday Lysander killed 12 blood claws a venrable dread ragnar blackmane and 5 wolf guard hes too powerful wi 2+/3+ saves, 4 wounds, eternal warrior, master crafted thunder hammer that is strength 10


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Tigirus said:


> I agree, tellion is retardedly good, but name one ultrasmurf character that isn't.


cassius, toughness 6 ain't worth crap if you hit like a wet blanket
and Marneus (Yes I said Marneus) 265pts for 1 bloke, no thanks, I could take 2 captains with 2 Lightning claws for that, and they could kill him


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I am not that upset about super characters. Its the free abilities that sweep across the whole army for no cost or restriction. Kayvaan Shrike is not that nuts, but a whole army of SM who can fleet is a great tactical boost that can change a game ( a lot more than a few Obliterators). If we (Chaos) had a DP Obliterator character who could make the Obliterators scoring units now, then you could say the Oblits. were good. But the Character would be the culprit.
I wish most of the SM players here on Heresy were near my playing area. Maybe you guys could show me how un-cheezy the new dex is. I know there are still good, balanced and mature SM players out there, who play with fun as the objective,and for those of you I salute you k:

But the New SM Codex is like a razor blade. You don't know where the middle-of-the-road players will fall. Time will tell, I guess.

In a gaming world of compromise, some players Don't!:victory:

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

World Eater

Hail,

Yes even the no name WS6, Iron halo, artificier armour SM Captains can be Super-sized too!:grin:

Fight fire with fire! or in this case "fight cheese with cheese"ROTFLMAO!!

BTW the little scenario with Clgar and 2 captains, Calgar is 250 points, the two captains are 260 min so you're close. Calgar has ap2 shooting, and a power sword, so he would possibly kill one and hurt the other. Not a complete washout.

BFTBG!!

World Eater



Stella Cadente said:


> cassius, toughness 6 ain't worth crap if you hit like a wet blanket
> and Marneus (Yes I said Marneus) 265pts for 1 bloke, no thanks, I could take 2 captains with 2 Lightning claws for that, and they could kill him


Hail,

Hitting like a wet blanket? SM Chaplains are pretty tough dudes. Only the New Space Marines Codex powers of corruption would distort an opinion like that!:shok:

Imagine a Brainstorming session at GW HQ, about a year ago regarding the New SM Codex, goes something like this:
-' well lets see, lets make some powerful HQ choices for the new codex'
-' Yeah thats a good idea. BTW I hear that SM Chaplains hit like a wet blanket. What are we gonna do about that?'
-'Better make those HQ choices REALLY powerful'
-'And while you're at it, make some nasty Chapter traits that they all can use, I mean we may as well go the full nine on this lot right?'

Rubbish. Damn Skippy.

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

World Eater

Please use the edit button instead of making back to back posts withing a half hour period.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

World Eater said:


> Hail,
> Hitting like a wet blanket? SM Chaplains are pretty tough dudes.


yes they are, especially with Digi Lasers, without them its just a generally useless STR4, which in todays 40k gaming field, really is useless considering most armies you bump into have toughness 4 as well.

I was on about Cassius, he IS a wet blanket, a tougher to kill wet blanket yes, but still a wet blanket



also there is an Edit button


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Dev Sarges DO have more than combat squads... They come with a Signum.

They can make one of their guys fire at BS5 by giving up their own shot.

Completely to their advantage to do so.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cole Deschain said:


> Dev Sarges DO have more than combat squads... They come with a Signum.
> 
> They can make one of their guys fire at BS5 by giving up their own shot.
> 
> Completely to their advantage to do so.


never even noticed that before, interesting, if of limited use considering the expense of the devvie squad, and the most effective weaponry


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Bull.

It's of PHENOMENAL use early in the game, when the Sergeant can't shoot at anything anyway.

Lascannons, Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers? All reap big dividends from it.

Multi-Meltas might not use it as much, but if the only target within 24" is a vehicle, the Sarge may as well make all but certain that one of them hits.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cole Deschain said:


> Bull.
> 
> It's of PHENOMENAL use early in the game, when the Sergeant can't shoot at anything anyway.
> 
> Lascannons, Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers? All reap big dividends from it.


you seem to be forgetting sods Law, it has plagued things like vindicares since the dawn of time
if 1 important weapon/shot can hit on 2+, it WILL miss


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Ah, but that will insure that the REST of the squad hits. :wink:

Mix and match Dev Squads almost never work out well, so it's a safe vet that the rest of the squad will be firing the same weapon at the same target.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

Sorry about the edit nightmare guys. I'm not the most savvy with these computer things(not like swingin a chain axe!)


BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> Dev Sarges DO have more than combat squads... They come with a Signum.
> 
> They can make one of their guys fire at BS5 by giving up their own shot.
> 
> Completely to their advantage to do so.


especially good if you use the combat squads rule to split the squad into 5 with 2 hb, and 5 with 2 lascan. can make the squad optimized for each role.


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## son_of_a_horus (Jun 23, 2008)

Is it necessary though for the Marines to be THAT hard? I mean, really, characters that are the equivalent toughness to a 'fex? That's insane! Not ONE Chaos character is that hard, including the Despoiler! 

For Marines, it is awesome, the marine players must be dancing like mad because my GODS! it is insane! But nothing is fair about it for everybody else.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

son_of_a_horus said:


> Is it necessary though for the Marines to be THAT hard? I mean, really, characters that are the equivalent toughness to a 'fex? That's insane! Not ONE Chaos character is that hard, including the Despoiler!


stop getting stuck on 1 thing, who gives a crap if a marine is toughness 6, put him up against something else toughness 6 like a Carnifex, or an avatar and see what happens to Cassius's head as its crushed into the dirt with little effort.

he is NOT that hard, and he is only 1 man

if people were saying Marneus costed 10pts, with toughness 6, feel no pain, 2+ invulnerable str10 and struck at initiative THEN I could understand peoples complaints, but right now most have been as weak as water or all centred around cassius and his silly insignificant toughness


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Agreed. He's T6. Good for him. In the end, that really just means he can't suffer instant death by conventional means. It's *not* hard to get a model that's S6 or better up to beat up on him. Yeah, he's going to kill some people. He's a Chaplain-- it'd be kind of silly to expect anything less than some hurt to come from him-- but he's hardly unstoppable. None of the named characters are that great-- they're just the starting point for people who are more concerned about 'build' armies than anything else. 

The Codex is *not* broken. It's great, but it's not broken. There aren't any combinations in there that really don't fit the fluff whatsoever, as long as you remember that GW writes the rules for special characters with the intent that you can rename them and use them in any Chapter. People are going to complain about the Pedro Kantor and his Sternguard Posse army, but you know... that's just a loyalist Thousand Sons army without the psychic powers, in the grand scheme of things. Low model count, they're no tougher than regular Space Marines, and while their bolters are better, the cost you pay per model is high enough that it's not worth it. Broken? Hardly. Fluffy for any Chapter? Sure. First Captain or the Chapter Master and a strike force made up of First Company Squads. Why not? 

The Codex actually forces players to be a bit more fluffy, I think. It flat encourages you to have a Captain lead the way, which is how it should be. It, combined with the 5th Edition rules regarding what's a scoring unit, makes it so that if you don't bring an ample supply of Tactical Space Marines, you'll lose. Again, that's how it should be-- the mainstay of an army should be its Tactical Squads, not its Assault or Devastator squads. The Codex also places more emphasis on infantry, I think, than vehicles. Yeah, the Space Marines have good tanks, but the focus of the army is its infantry, and you'll be better served by a Devastator squad these days than a Predator. They've made the armoury assets much more in line with their 'support' role for the infantry, rather than as something that just sort of fights alongside the squads, if that makes sense. 

As the most popular army out there, Games Workshop would have been *retarded* to have done anything less with the current Codex. They're in financial trouble, which is why they're trying to get Dark Angel, Black Templar, and Blood Angel players tempted to buy stuff to change their armies to use the new Codex. That's why there's no FAQ-- it'd be bad for sales. However, they had to also make the Codex able to please every kind of Space Marine player. If you were into 'build' armies, and focused more on the combinations you brought to the table more than how you actually applied the units, then there's stuff in the book for you-- Pedro Kantor's Sternguard Gang is a prime example, as is Vulkan He'stan's Orgy o' Flamers. If you, like me, were more concerned with how your army reflected the fluff of a given Chapter, then you're in good shape-- the Codex makes you follow the Codex Astartes pretty well, so there shouldn't be any complaints there. If you just like big beefy supermen in power armor, and are more of a painter and modeller than a gamer... then the book is bloody 250 pages and full of fluff (mostly about the Ultramarines, but they are sort of the prime example of Codex doctrine) and artwork that should inspire conversions and paint schemes.

Honestly, I think all the ranting about how the Space Marine codex is broken is just the usual "the new Codex is broken" noise, combined with the fact that the internet is a device for anonymously slandering and/or complaining about things. If you can't figure out for the life of you how to beat it after a few years, then you can gripe about it. But right now, when it's been out for two weeks and most people haven't even played a game with it yet... yeah. Give it a chance.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

My name is John Kidby, and I live in the general area of Fergus, Ontario. No anonymous slandering and/or complaining here. Have there been any NON-Marine players who've said the Codex is fine? I'd be a lot less cynical if I could find a few. But as it is, I see broken special rules on broken special characters, and not a single person who doesn't stand to benefit telling me it's not a problem. Am I wrong to be worried here?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

I can think of a Chaos player who thinks the codex is fine. I play against him on a weekly basis. I'll have to get him to post here one day about it.

As far as special characters go for the SM armies, of which I have only used once, I think none of them except shrike is broken in any regard. and unless your a dick player shrike will be in combat very quickly, thus getting killed very quickly with his fleet rule.

Compaired to the named character SM players got in the last codex this is a freaken god send. SM's now have characters that are able to hang with the named guys from other armies and not be laughed at. As far as the two special sargents they look really scary but they are not. Considering you're only allowed one its someone designed to draw fire rather then give you some unholy game winning ability.

Finally could you guys give GW some time to actually put out codex's for 5th ed before you start screaming about changes that are being made? Considering we know that new codex's are coming for just about every faction lets wait till we see them before we fly off the handle about how "overpowered" one faction is.

Dont look at this as a end all in the codex's, its a just the start.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> As the most popular army out there, Games Workshop would have been *retarded* to have done anything less with the current Codex. They're in financial trouble, which is why they're trying to get Dark Angel, Black Templar, and Blood Angel players tempted to buy stuff to change their armies to use the new Codex. That's why there's no FAQ-- it'd be bad for sales. However, they had to also make the Codex able to please every kind of Space Marine player


Sorry SoH but I call foul here. If sales are really that bad and they need to do things to entice players to pick up more models, why didn't DA, BA, and Chaos receive the same treatment that the new SM codex did? I tend to think that with the new plastics available to chaos they would have been unable to keep the models on the shelves if they gave Chaos players a codex on a par, both in size and rules, with this new SM one. 



> My name is John Kidby, and I live in the general area of Fergus, Ontario. No anonymous slandering and/or complaining here. Have there been any NON-Marine players who've said the Codex is fine? I'd be a lot less cynical if I could find a few. But as it is, I see broken special rules on broken special characters, and not a single person who doesn't stand to benefit telling me it's not a problem. Am I wrong to be worried here?


I don't think it's overly bad or tremendously overpowered and I am a Tau and Chaos player. Most of the 'cool' shit that sms got is mondo expensive for one, and not in the scoring units section of the codex for another. I know Damned Fist's sm army is going through big changes right now because of it and he has actually -lost- model count because of the expense of certain units going up or just being expensive in general. No, my biggest beef with the sm codex, as I have said, is the fact that after utterly raping DA, BA, and especially Chaos with the new 5th Ed 'streamlining' ideal and removing 90% of our options and flavour, they turn around and just gave everything marines could want to them and did it on a golden fuckin platter. THAT is what irks me the most.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> I don't think it's overly bad or tremendously overpowered and I am a Tau and Chaos player. Most of the 'cool' shit that sms got is mondo expensive for one, and not in the scoring units section of the codex for another... No, my biggest beef with the sm codex, as I have said, is the fact that after utterly raping DA, BA, and especially Chaos with the new 5th Ed 'streamlining' ideal and removing 90% of our options and flavour, they turn around and just gave everything marines could want to them and did it on a golden fuckin platter. THAT is what irks me the most.


Word.

First of all, for special characters i dont give a flying fuck. Most players see SCs for what they are(something GW sadly try to change tho) a bad reason for fucking up rules, and a good reason of making a cool, albeit more expensive model. 

I had a check, and if im not painstakingly misstaken, here are some diffrences in numbers that might shine a light on why CSM players are so irritated on the SM list. 
SM have 9 elite options - CSM have 4(if we talk playable, aka not completly ueless, options then 2)
SM have 8 fast attack options - CSM have 2!(yes thats two, not more)
SM have 7 heavy support - CSM have 6(so this is fairly equal, but the 2 above are just sad diffrences)

And no, i dont give a damn that some of the options are "diffrent dreadnought type" options, it still opens up for alot more variety for army creation and gaming experiences 

Some consistency is actually not to much to ask for, is it? :wacko:


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Alright, fair points. It should be said that I haven't actually played against the new Codex yet - maybe it all just looks better on paper. Though it does appear that running a CSM list that's both competitive and fluffy just got even harder than it already was. But anyway.

Assuming you're right (and I hope to every god I know of that you are), I still have certain gripes, which not coincidentally mirror your own. It's just not fair, I tells ya. I mean, real life is _never_ fair, but 40k isn't supposed to follow the model of "real life".


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> People are going to complain about the Pedro Kantor and his Sternguard Posse army, but you know... that's just a loyalist Thousand Sons army without the psychic powers, in the grand scheme of things. Low model count, they're no tougher than regular Space Marines, and while their bolters are better, the cost you pay per model is high enough that it's not worth it. Broken? Hardly. Fluffy for any Chapter? Sure. First Captain or the Chapter Master and a strike force made up of First Company Squads. Why not?


I tend to disagree with this. I've made an army list revolovng around the first company with terminators and veteran squads with few troops, still enough to score well, and it was called cheesy as hell and a big example of powergaming. How is it different for new SMs? they have a rule allowing them to so It's fluffy and not cheesy now? bull.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

I've had a proper read through the codex now and my views are as follows:

1. Generally an improvement on the last version
2. Lots of options most of which cost too many points
3. Too many special characters. Just get rid of them in all codexes or ban them from competitive play and do the world a favour. Special characters just annoy everyone. 
4. They get some nice cover reducing stuff which I think was essential against the hordes of 5th. Whirlwind anyone?
5. You are forced to take tactical squads (scouts suck) and these cost many points. Most lists have to be able to use a decent amount of bolter marines.
6. I doubt there is an uber set up like lash or ork hordes that will regularly win tournaments.
7. There are silly things still in it like terminator armour for 40 points for a character already with a 3+ save and 4+ invulenrable (grrr.. terminator librarian on the shelf), devastators being waay overcosted, sternguard undercosted (why do they get lascannons for 15 points and devs for 35??)

I take wraithlords point about the chaos codex looking shabby in comparison. The chaos codex lacks options and forces you to take certain things to be competitve (lash, obliterators) whilst some options are just terrible (dreadnoughts, any other HQ) or just bland (lesser daemons, raptors, tanks in general). I think this is a case of the chaos codex being bad and needing a (yet another) rewrite rather than the the marine codex being overpowered. 

I'd still much prefer to face marines than lash chaos.


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> 3. Too many special characters. Just get rid of them in all codexes or ban them from competitive play and do the world a favour. Special characters just annoy everyone.
> 
> 7. There are silly things still in it like terminator armour for 40 points for a character already with a 3+ save and 4+ invulenrable (grrr.. terminator librarian on the shelf), devastators being waay overcosted, sternguard undercosted (why do they get lascannons for 15 points and devs for 35??)


I disagree with what you are saying about the special characters, I doubt that they make a big difference when playing experienced players and they add some real flavor to your army. 
And I believe that sternguard get lascannons and other heavies cheaper because of 1. the base model cost is higher than devistators (and you loose the special ammo on the upgraded model) and they can only field 2 of them not 4.



MaidenManiac said:


> Word.
> 
> First of all, for special characters i dont give a flying fuck. Most players see SCs for what they are(something GW sadly try to change tho) a bad reason for fucking up rules, and a good reason of making a cool, albeit more expensive model.
> 
> ...


Please Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Chaos marines get at least 5 troop choices some of which are really good while Marines only get 3 (if you include bikes when a captain also takes one, but I think that Chaos can do this also) not to mention that defilers are pretty good all rounders with a battle cannon good CC ability and other assorted guns, Oh and monstrous creatures you get 2 at least, how many can marines take... 0 not a fucking sausage. Sure the Chaos codex needs work but its not really that bad, Thinking of using it myself for some flavor in my local games (and I want an excuse to collect some of the Chaos models)


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

It seems a lot of CSM seem to be upset about the new SM codex, thinking their codex has had a bum rap. But here's how i see the Chaos changes:

The Lord/Demon prince was horribly overpowered...

Nurgle Death Guard: Having T5 and feel no pain. Nurgle are foot slogging beasts so that's true to the fluff.

Tzneetch TS: Getting rid of that second wound seems right. They don't have bodies, so if the armour is pierced they shouldn't get another chance. But the inv save seems more fitting.

Khorne Berzrekers: The chopper rule was stupid as it was, a chainaxe is really no different to the chainsword so why should it get anything special. And it should never have chopped through termie armour equiv with such ease. 

Slaanesh EC: The extra initive is nice and fluffy, they like to dance

Chaos rant over, onto SM

3+ inv storm shields: Think about A Demon prince (Or other MC equiv) if you charged old termies or captains etc into combat with it you would get minced. The storm shield gives you a chance of living to use your MC killing weapons.


The marines had traits, these new character special abilities is just like taking a trait but without a drawback, use them to follow the fluff of your army.

I don't mean to encite a rage amongst any heretics, just wanted to give my two pence....


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

At least you can argue about new codices....

*sniff*


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

erm i think the codex IS prity fair in 5th edd. 

yes the new codex has alot of "killy killy dealth" units but you pay through the teeth for them leaving you very few scoring units, and with 5th all all you need to care about it getting the objectives NOT killing the opposition, so in a way they kind of become usless. 

characters, they are hard but its about time loyalists got what you chaos guys have had for 2 editions of your codex and im prity sure abadone could munch most of them on his own. 

and the chaos vs marine thing on variation, like already said we have 2 troop units and scouts took a BATTERING as did the normal marines, were as your troops choices just got better and better. i would prefer to have 3 obliterators (proberly the MOST versitile unit in the WHOLE GAME) than a 10 man dev unit with heavy weapons/a pred etc, your termintors are ALOT better and cheaper than ares, as are you "vets", and please dont get me started on your H,Qs they are fuckin sick. and when you say 2 fast attack units that are worth while there isnt that many in the marine codex that i would say are worth it either (proberly attack bikes and assault marines) 

and about the tank character - hes 70 points, i think deamonic possesion is 30 max, so i think you win that battle, and the scout guy is 50 points you could buy nearly 4 more scouts with snipers for that which has more chance of actualy doing something than he does, btu like i have already said scouts took a BEATING in the new codex and 5th ed rules 

thanks
martin


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

The tank character IMPROVES the BS of the tank he's in, while Daemonic Possession downgrades it. Is a Land Raider hitting on twos rather than fours worth 40 points? I reckon so. And the scout guy can pick and choose which models to snipe, so again, he's probably better than an equivalent number of Scouts. Likewise, your generic HQs trump ours (just compare a Sorcerer to a Librarian and tell me different). And your basic squads, assuming ours are given the same loadout, weigh in at twenty points cheaper.

Objectives or no, "killy killy death" is still the name of the game. You can't capture them if you're dead, or hold them uncontested while the other guy's alive. All that's changed is that you need more Troops now. Which, as I already mentioned, Loyalists get cheaper, to save points for "killy killy death" units.

I hate this thread. I've devoted way to much brain-time to the multifarious ways in which we got screwed. But I can't stop looking at it...


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> And your basic squads, assuming ours are given the same loadout, weigh in at twenty points cheaper.


Just gonna point out that CSMs have 2 attacks as basic, and the incredibly handy option to take marks.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Why are all a load of players contesting how powerful the Marine codex is, compared to the Chaos one?

Because 2 DP's with Lash of Slaanesh and 4 Tsons squads was not overkill, with 2 Defilers.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

beenburned said:


> Just gonna point out that CSMs have 2 attacks as basic, and the incredibly handy option to take marks.


no, they have one attack.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Yes, but +1 for BP and CC weapons, so 3 each on the charge, compared to the marines 2.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Why are all a load of players contesting how powerful the Marine codex is, compared to the Chaos one?...


My biggest concern aint that the list is "overpowered", still havent played against it so i can hardly say. 

My problem in short:
If you nerf all 5th ed codexes and streamline hard then all 'dex's should recieve the same beating. That aint the case right now.

The SM list seem very fun on alot of planes. Lots of options, lots of diffrent FO entries, in short: the possibilities of making alot of diffrent armies.

Other 5th ed 'dex's has recived the opposite treatment. Less options, less FO entries, in short: less options of making diffrent armies.

Dont think i can express it any clearer :no:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Please Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Chaos marines get at least 5 troop choices some of which are really good while Marines only get 3 (if you include bikes when a captain also takes one, but I think that Chaos can do this also)


6 actually if you include lesser daemons. It is the one aspect of the chaos codex that truly shines, no argument here



> not to mention that defilers are pretty good all rounders with a battle cannon good CC ability and other assorted guns, Oh and monstrous creatures you get 2 at least, how many can marines take... 0 not a fucking sausage.


Sorry but defilers are ass in a rusty can. Maybe if the model wasn't the HUGE monstrosity it is or if it had AV13 in front..... I might be swayed on that opinion. But as is, defilers suck balls.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

The tank character IMPROVES the BS of the tank he's in, while Daemonic Possession downgrades it. Is a Land Raider hitting on twos rather than fours worth 40 points? I reckon so.
**** tbh no as 4+ reroll is basically as good as a 2+ to hit anyway so imo i would never spend the 70 points on him for a vhircle AT all, hes just new and shiny nothing more.

And the scout guy can pick and choose which models to snipe, so again, he's probably better than an equivalent number of Scouts
**** but like i said the chances of him doing something are prity low to start with, and like i said scouts got a MAJOR all round nurf in the 5th ed rules AND the new codex, 1 character that is still 1 wound and 4+ save isnt going to change that

.Likewise, your generic HQs trump ours (just compare a Sorcerer to a Librarian and tell me different). 
**** but compare a librarain to a deamon price there just not even close on ANY measure!!! and imo most/all your powers are better than the imperials (old codex marines had the best powers ever), and please dont go for the lord argument and deamon weapons woop ass!!

And your basic squads, assuming ours are given the same loadout, weigh in at twenty points cheaper.
**** but you dont HAVE to buy a 10 man unit to get anything you can buy a 5 man unit or just go 7 plauge marines with 2 plasmas that is WAY better in all forms, loyalist are basically FORCED into takin a unit of 10 marines no ifs no buts, not to mention your normal unit has LD10 and have both a bolter/bolt pistol and c.c.w!!!!

Objectives or no, "killy killy death" is still the name of the game. You can't capture them if you're dead, or hold them uncontested while the other guy's alive. All that's changed is that you need more Troops now. Which, as I already mentioned, Loyalists get cheaper, to save points for "killy killy death" units.
**** but most are once use only.. so yes they will proberly kill one unit then just die the next turn. they are good at what they do then after that they die


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Here we go...

Okay folks... Chaos players are rarely bitching about the strength of the actual codex. Most people (with exceptions, of course) are bitching about the fact that the chaos codex was stripped of all it's options for the sake of "streamlining" and then tons of options were handed to marines. That's the problem. End of list. From what *I've* seen, it seems that *marine* players are bitching about the strength of the *chaos* codex (which I really don't understand). 

For those who are saying that Thousand Sons are just *so* unfair... Gee, they get a 4+ invuln and AP3 bolters. If you're going to keep your men out of cover, then that AP 3 bolter deserves to find its mark. As for the 4+ invuln... You have at *least* TWO units that can have a *3+* invuln. Yep, that's right, 3+. Legion of the Damned. And one of your Xguard units (van or stern, I confuse the two) with the ability to give them all shields. "Oh, but it's so balls expensive...." Sure it is, and it goddamned well better be. Thousand Sons are *not* cheap, either, for the record. Your statline and movement profiles are not modified, Ksons are. They always count as assaulting into cover, slow and purposeful. 

Sure, we can put down 2 monstrous creatures as our HQ. Doesn't really mean dick to those 3+ invuln saves though, does it?

Now that that's been said, I'll summarize... 

Power of the marine codex: It's alright, bar a few things (fleeting termies, wtf?).
Streamlined as per the 5th ed supposed codex trend? Not in the fucking least. Chaos players feel that GW gave them a collective cock slap, spit in their eye, and didn't even call them in the morning. A feeling I feel is more than justified.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

beenburned said:


> Just gonna point out that CSMs have 2 attacks as basic, and the incredibly handy option to take marks.


Yes, we get a free CCW, and an extra point of leadership too! On the other hand, Loyalists get ATSKNF, and the ability to split off into two squads, each optimized for a different role. For twenty points less.



martin4696 said:


> The tank character IMPROVES the BS of the tank he's in, while Daemonic Possession downgrades it. Is a Land Raider hitting on twos rather than fours worth 40 points? I reckon so.
> **** tbh no as 4+ reroll is basically as good as a 2+ to hit anyway so imo i would never spend the 70 points on him for a vhircle AT all, hes just new and shiny nothing more.
> 
> And the scout guy can pick and choose which models to snipe, so again, he's probably better than an equivalent number of Scouts
> ...


Point-by-point: 4+ with a reroll still misses one time in four. 2+ with a reroll misses one time on twelve. Seems worth the points to me, and that doesn't take into account that you also get a character out of it.

If Astartes McVindicare shoots my Skull Champion and nobody else, he's made back his points and then some. He's even if he smokes a single lascannon-armed Havoc, and only five points shy if he takes out an Aspiring Champion with a power weapon.

Wraithian's covered HQ, so I won't touch it.

The Troops I've already mentioned, but as Wraithlord says, that's the one FOS that we undoubtedly come out on top in, if for no other reason than sheer breadth of options. At least, if you're willing to combine all the Marks in your army...

And to kill a unit of Legion of the Damned in one turn, you'd have to direct so much firepower at it that the rest of the army would basically go unmolested. Personally, I'm against anything better than a 4+ Inv. save, with the exception of the Shadowfield (and then only because it has an unusual habit of exploding on the first save made). Apparently, the guys who wrote the Marine Codex feel otherwise...

Anyway, if we drop the "who's better" angle entirely, there's still the incontrovertible fact that we got fucked hard in terms of options, and fluffy ones in particular. Any counterpoint there?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> The tank character IMPROVES the BS of the tank he's in, while Daemonic Possession downgrades it. Is a Land Raider hitting on twos rather than fours worth 40 points? I reckon so.
> **** tbh no as 4+ reroll is basically as good as a 2+ to hit anyway so imo i would never spend the 70 points on him for a vhircle AT all, hes just new and shiny nothing more.


We don't reroll with daemonic possession, thanks for playing.



martin4696 said:


> And the scout guy can pick and choose which models to snipe, so again, he's probably better than an equivalent number of Scouts
> **** but like i said the chances of him doing something are prity low to start with, and like i said scouts got a MAJOR all round nurf in the 5th ed rules AND the new codex, 1 character that is still 1 wound and 4+ save isnt going to change that


Like said before, if he kills an icon bearer, or an aspiring champ, he's nearly paid for himself. Also to point out, if he kills a nob with powerklaw, he's easily made back his usefulness.



martin4696 said:


> Likewise, your generic HQs trump ours (just compare a Sorcerer to a Librarian and tell me different).
> **** but compare a librarain to a deamon price there just not even close on ANY measure!!! and imo most/all your powers are better than the imperials (old codex marines had the best powers ever), and please dont go for the lord argument and deamon weapons woop ass!!


Ooooh goodie. I can take a weapon with 1/6 chance to harm me and do nothing, or if I want the khorne weapon, 1/3. And these are all(almost) s4 attacks, so with your new shiny ironclad you can safely ignore us. Lords are awful. The daemon prince is our one and only hq choice and as such, he is fairly powerful, I'm not going to argue that, but you do have the better selection of powers. We have three psychic powers, lash, warptime, and doombolt(cause it's cheap). We have no hoods.



martin4696 said:


> And your basic squads, assuming ours are given the same loadout, weigh in at twenty points cheaper.
> **** but you dont HAVE to buy a 10 man unit to get anything you can buy a 5 man unit or just go 7 plauge marines with 2 plasmas that is WAY better in all forms, loyalist are basically FORCED into takin a unit of 10 marines no ifs no buts, not to mention your normal unit has LD10 and have both a bolter/bolt pistol and c.c.w!!!!


I'll admit our troop choices are fine and dandy so long as we mix them all together, but our basic trooper is not as good of a deal, and lacks ATSKNF...which is awesome in this edition. Also we come at LD9 without a champ.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, they might be overpowered yes, I know this because I took about 1250pts to a game at the weekend, and chaos had 2000, I still managed to survive until the end of the 5th turn, whereas before they would have got to about 3rd turn


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Yes, we get a free CCW, and an extra point of leadership too! On the other hand, Loyalists get ATSKNF, and the ability to split off into two squads, each optimized for a different role. For twenty points less.


Just acouple of points that have been quoted by yourself and others as fact, with which I disagree.

Loyalist Marine squad, ten men, flamer and missile = 170 points
CSM squad, ten men, flamer and missile = 165 points

Leadership the same, chaos get an extra nine attacks because of CCW/bolt pistol (would be ten but marines get Sgt).

Combat squads sounds OK in theory but I would say wait out in terms of actual usage. Under previous systems five marines with an assault weapon close to almost any army in the game have all the life expectancy of a Lager in my fridge!

I think the five with a heavy have uses but its hardly an optimal config is it.

Hey sorry about the points use GW but its central to the discussion.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Don't the Loyalists get their veteran as part of the basic cost as well? I thought they did, for some reason. In any case, you're right, I miscalculated - I was doing it from memory, and I must've assigned the cost of a Havoc's missile launcher or something. But my point still stands about the added benefits, ATSKNF in particular.

Waffles - unless I missed something, Possession doesn't take away the ability of TL weapons to reroll (we were talking about a Land Raider). Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of our HQ; they just look like balls next to the Loyalist equivalents. And DPs aren't really the amazing box o' wonderfulness that everyone makes them out to be - if I direct both my Havoc squads to fire on one, it's dead halfway through the first turn (unless it's got the Mark of Tzeentch, in which case it likely dies on turn two). Still, we're in complete agreement about everything else.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

well in the tac squad there cabbage there's a veteran sergeant too. Aspiring champion would be the equivalent in the chaos squad and that would make that more expensive... unless I'm thinking about the old codex.... do they come free in the current chaos codex?


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> well in the tac squad there cabbage there's a veteran sergeant too. Aspiring champion would be the equivalent in the chaos squad and that would make that more expensive... unless I'm thinking about the old codex.... do they come free in the current chaos codex?


Nope. We pay for our Aspiring Champions. We used to get them for free in our cult squads, if we put them in groups divisible by the sacred number of their deity. That little perk's gone, too, now.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> I've had a proper read through the codex now and my views are as follows:
> 
> 1. Generally an improvement on the last version
> 2. Lots of options most of which cost too many points
> ...


Hail,

I think you are mistaken about the new SM scouts. Rending, pinning for no extra points cost, 36" range for the whole squad, and a +1 cover bonus save for only 3 points per model?

Just opinions, barely based on facts.

World Eater


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> I've had a proper read through the codex now and my views are as follows:
> 3. Too many special characters. Just get rid of them in all codexes or ban them from competitive play and do the world a favour. Special characters just annoy everyone.
> 5. You are forced to take tactical squads (scouts suck) and these cost many points. Most lists have to be able to use a decent amount of bolter marines.
> 6. I doubt there is an uber set up like lash or ork hordes that will regularly win tournaments.
> I'd still much prefer to face marines than lash chaos.


#3: why, it is only one model in a force. they are not that bad. They cnanot make a battle on their own, unless you are playing a battle where they are the only model on the field, and the opponent matches points.

#5 You did read the codex, right? you are supposed to take tactical squads, they are the mainstay og a chapter. that is like complaining that you have to take tanks in IG, that is what makes the army what it is.

#6 really, yet another complaint about lash, I thought this horse was dead. lash isn't a game breaker, it strengthens an army if you are willing to do more than complain. create some redundancy in your force, make it worthless to use the power, which isn't guaranteed to work, and make it a points sink. as for complaining about ork hordes, you should read the ork dex, that is the way that they are supposed to fight. see previous.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

We don't reroll with daemonic possession, thanks for playing.
**** lol try READING my post befor you make me out to be silly!!!

Like said before, if he kills an icon bearer, or an aspiring champ, he's nearly paid for himself. Also to point out, if he kills a nob with powerklaw, he's easily made back his usefulness.
**** but you still have to beable to course a wound.... with 4 extra scouts you have alot better chance of causing wounds and there for being able to "put" wounds on certain modules (heavys, specials, vets)

Ooooh goodie. I can take a weapon with 1/6 chance to harm me and do nothing, or if I want the khorne weapon, 1/3. And these are all(almost) s4 attacks, so with your new shiny ironclad you can safely ignore us. Lords are awful. The daemon prince is our one and only hq choice and as such, he is fairly powerful, I'm not going to argue that, but you do have the better selection of powers. We have three psychic powers, lash, warptime, and doombolt(cause it's cheap). We have no hoods.
**** 1/6 chance are harming yourself for d6 extra attacks, and the chances of getting a 1 in a game are lower (your not going to be in combat on turn 1 maybe 2), why mention the iron clad a normal dread would fuck over a str4 guy anyway, and a loyalist master would have the same problem so not sure what you are "arguing here". we have more powers yes (i think) but you have alot more usful ones, breath of chaos is orsum and so in the gift of chaos. 

I'll admit our troop choices are fine and dandy so long as we mix them all together, but our basic trooper is not as good of a deal, and lacks ATSKNF...which is awesome in this edition. Also we come at LD9 without a champ.
**** your basic troops are better than "ours" heads up any day of the week. +1 attack, +1 leadership, ALOT more flexability than ours (withour marks)


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

"Anyway, if we drop the "who's better" angle entirely, there's still the incontrovertible fact that we got fucked hard in terms of options, and fluffy ones in particular. Any counterpoint there?"

erm YES, you lost options.. "we" lost the WHOLE trait system which i know ALOT of players built there army on and are now stuck with alot of units that they can now not use... atleast for yours you can still use ALL your modules!!


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## Darkangeldentist (Oct 31, 2007)

This thread is a strange read. I couldn't manage all of it so sorry if I'm repeating sentiments.

Marines gained at least as much as they lost. Chaos lost more than they gained but then again had far too much to begin with from 'that' codex.

I sort of like the basic marine list, I like things like Legion of the Damned but I hate the special characters with a passion.

Chaos players may feel screwed over but they aren't the only ones. DA, BA and BT all feel rather slighted (to say the very least) that their brother marines now have a bunch of equipment that works a whole lot better. (Yes we managed to upgrade the machine spirit so now it's a better shot and lets us stick two more marines inside.)

I like of lot of things in the chaos codex and only feel the HQ section lets it down. I even rather like my Dark angel codex. However in comparison the new marine book makes them look very poor relations.

I really really hate the new Lysander. Both fluff and rules.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

martin4696 said:


> erm YES, you lost options.. "we" lost the WHOLE trait system which i know ALOT of players built there army on and are now stuck with alot of units that they can now not use... atleast for yours you can still use ALL your modules!!


Like AL Cultists? IW Basilisks? EC Sonic Vehicles? DG True Grit Bolters?


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Fluff'Ead said:


> Like AL Cultists? IW Basilisks? EC Sonic Vehicles? DG True Grit Bolters?


ok i have to be honest i never saw cultists in any alpha legion army so i had forgoten about them... basalisk fair point (thought in most cases that was the 4th heavy choice which you cant have anyway), sonic blaster.... i thought u could still buy them for dreads or am i wrong?? and true grit has no relevence as you now have bolters, bolt pistols and c.c.ws so ur not effective at all.

6 dev squads, 6 dreads (to a limit), tyranid hunters, calgars bodygaurd, pure assault squads, lysander wing, terminator command units.

the main thing that dicks marines in the new codex is u HAVE to have a unit of 10 to beable to buy anything else (heavy,special weapons..)


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

the problem with the "you have to buy 10" argument is twofold, first, it is a "6man lasplas" whinge, and you would have to be daft to see it as a downside, the same unit can both have a static heavy weapon and an assault oriented squad, by taking advantage of the combat squads rule. if sm didn't have combat squads, it would be a legitimate gripe.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> the main thing that dicks marines in the new codex is u HAVE to have a unit of 10 to beable to buy anything else (heavy,special weapons..)


Heaven forbid your men should NOT be able to min-max.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> erm YES, you lost options.. "we" lost the WHOLE trait system which i know ALOT of players built there army on and are now stuck with alot of units that they can now not use... atleast for yours you can still use ALL your modules!!


You have got to be fucking kidding me!!!! For one, the trait system was broken as all hell simply because the drawbacks weren't really drawbacks at all most of the time, and for another that is really all you lost. Not saying it doesn't suck but come on. We lost the rules for 9 FULL LEGIONS, utterly and completely. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't even EXIST anymore beyond a paint scheme. The 4 cults are only represented in a single troop choice now as opposed to when they covered every part of the FOC. We lost Vet Skills, Daemonic Gifts, Vehicle Upgrades, Daemon Weapons, CULT DAEMONS, half the fuckin armoury, free champs in cult squads, the list goes on.

GW completely stripped the chaos codex of 90% of its options, admittedly with good cause, and left it a ridiculously soulless book of cookie cutter armies. Now here comes Codex: Space Marines and they give you a book that is double the size, has all the options you could ask for including some utterly ridiculous things and you bitch because you lost Traits??? Or that you have to go with the 10 man system like any other marine army?



> the main thing that dicks marines in the new codex is u HAVE to have a unit of 10 to beable to buy anything else (heavy,special weapons..)


And this is different from chaos....how exactly. Last time I checked, a basic csm squad had to be 10 models to have the special/heavy as well.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't even EXIST anymore beyond a paint scheme. The 4 cults are only represented in a single troop choice now as opposed to when they covered every part of the FOC. We lost Vet Skills, Daemonic Gifts, Vehicle Upgrades, Daemon Weapons, CULT DAEMONS, half the fuckin armoury, free champs in cult squads, the list goes on.


right ther, the heart and soul of the argument we have, loyalist players have the ability to represent their first founding legions, yet we are stuck with "renegades" we aren't mourning the loss of four heavy support choices and basies, we are complaining that we lost both the advantages and disadvantages inherent in our lists. 

I hate seeing so many "death guard" lists with three fast attack options and rhinos, it ain't their way of warfare, but the rules allow it, so it's ok. before, we only had rhino mounted squads as fast attack, and couldn't field heavy weapons unless they were mounted on a vehicle. That is why I love my legion, it poses a challenge, as we were not able to take things the other legions could, but triumphed anyways.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> "Anyway, if we drop the "who's better" angle entirely, there's still the incontrovertible fact that we got fucked hard in terms of options, and fluffy ones in particular. Any counterpoint there?"
> 
> erm YES, you lost options.. "we" lost the WHOLE trait system which i know ALOT of players built there army on and are now stuck with alot of units that they can now not use... atleast for yours you can still use ALL your modules!!


You came within a fraction of an inch of being de-repped for this one. I mean, seriously - that's nothing short of IGNORANT, for reasons others have already covered quite well. Please, think before you post.

Oh, and SoM - no offense intended, but I'm getting a trifle annoyed hearing people complain that the CSM 'dex represents renegade Chapters. It doesn't. Remotely. It's a Black Legion list, and nothing else.

edantically irritable renegade chapter master:

[EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, is anyone else annoyed be the... er, whatchamacallit... feature that turns short letter groups into bold text with a rollover window to explain the supposed abbreviation? It seems to pop up inconsistently, and often in inappropriate places. And if it must be kept, shouldn't LR also bring up Leman Russ?]


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

> [EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, is anyone else annoyed be the... er, whatchamacallit... feature that turns short letter groups into bold text with a rollover window to explain the supposed abbreviation? It seems to pop up inconsistently, and often in inappropriate places. And if it must be kept, shouldn't LR also bring up Leman Russ?]



I lol'd at this. :laugh: He is right its funny where that pops up.

come on guys as interesting as this is to read the new codex's for other factions aren't out yet. Can't we save the complaining for when they are all out?

Personally I'm wondering whats gonna happen when the Forces of the Imperium codex (witchhunters/deamonhunters) comes out.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> [EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, is anyone else annoyed be the... er, whatchamacallit... feature that turns short letter groups into bold text with a rollover window to explain the supposed abbreviation? It seems to pop up inconsistently, and often in inappropriate places. And if it must be kept, shouldn't LR also bring up Leman Russ?]


Aurellis, I believe you can turn that off in your control panel.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

You have got to be fucking kidding me!!!! For one, the trait system was broken as all hell simply because the drawbacks weren't really drawbacks at all most of the time, and for another that is really all you lost. Not saying it doesn't suck but come on. 
**** ahah chaos calling are trait system broken... lmao 9 obs, 4 difilers, 1dp for iron warriors.. what was there disadvantage again?? i could go through the others but IW is the main one.

We lost the rules for 9 FULL LEGIONS, utterly and completely. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't even EXIST anymore beyond a paint scheme. The 4 cults are only represented in a single troop choice now as opposed to when they covered every part of the FOC.
**** true but there is a STRONG romour about a special codex for them, and by giving people icons rather than marks you can basically get the same lists.

We lost Vet Skills, Daemonic Gifts, Vehicle Upgrades, Daemon Weapons, CULT DAEMONS, half the fuckin armoury, free champs in cult squads, the list goes on.
**** i wasnt going to mention vet skills as we lost them as well... everyone lost wargear options... we lost machine spirit you lost parasitic possesion.... deamon weapons you have new ones (granted not on your DPs but they were ALWAYS to powerful), cult deamons have there own codex.... and champs you lost but thats from losing the legions rather than anything else.


GW completely stripped the chaos codex of 90% of its options, admittedly with good cause, and left it a ridiculously soulless book of cookie cutter armies. Now here comes Codex: Space Marines and they give you a book that is double the size, has all the options you could ask for including some utterly ridiculous things and you bitch because you lost Traits??? Or that you have to go with the 10 man system like any other marine army?
**** double the size... mainly full of background (space marines are GWs main army so they are going to have more background than anything else), im not seeing all the options i could possibly want... and utter redicluas things??? and yer the same as you are bitching about yours...


And this is different from chaos....how exactly. Last time I checked, a basic csm squad had to be 10 models to have the special/heavy as well.
**** you can buy a special weapon for a 5 man unit.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Grr...

Okay, to start here, Iron Warrior's "Oblit spam" style lists were a one-trick pony. If you faced them once, you knew how to beat them there after. At least, that's how it was here in my demographic.

Even a STRONG rumor of a new cult specific chaos codex is just that--a rumor. 

By giving units marks, you get NOWHERE the same lists. For example, Mark of Nurgle does NOT confer feel no pain, a minus to initiative, and a toughness increase. Just the toughness increase. EVERY mark is the same way. Oh, and let's see, kill the icon bearer, unit is back to being plain chaos marines again. Yeah, sure, "basically," the same lists. No where near, dude. Sorry. 

Yeah, we lost parasitic possession. As well as every other god-specific vehicle upgrade. Last I heard, your "Power of the Machine Spirit" got a boost in this dex. Not too sure, as I haven't read that particular rule myself. 

Daemons... I can't believe you just said that, "cult daemons now have their own codex," like it's a fucking good thing. Have you seen the piss poor shit that have replaced our god specific daemons? You know, the pieces of shit that are damn near as expensive as a marine, with no options, no power weapons, no rending, and damn near same stat line as a marine but with no save to justify their points?

Daemon princes. Have you looked at some of the characters in the marine dex? Some of them have very similar stats to daemon princes, with the addition of cooler rules. So, you got a guy out there, who's basically a miniDP. Yep. Lessee.... Stat lines similar? Check. Eternal Warrior? Check. Cooler rules than any daemon prince ever thought of having? Check. Small enough so he at least gets some cover from standing behind that chainlink fence when the enemy decides that he's simply too dangerous to live past turn one? Check. So, please, spare us the "ZOMG DPs R teh BORKEN!!!"

As for the special/heavy argument... The statement was made in relation to the model count for a special *and* heavy, not a special *or* heavy. So no, marines win, hands down, for their ability to place one heavy and one special in a unit. If we do that in a chaos list, we either screw the abilities of one weapon, or the other. Why? Because we can't combat squad out like you folks.

Let me repeat, yet again, that people are less pissed about the power of the codex as much as they are, "What is good for one, is good for all." Since GW kicked chaos in the balls, then the rest of the up coming codeci should be kicked square in the base, too.

But hey, if you want to continue the, "your army is more broken than mine," thing, that's cool. Just in case no-one's picked up on it yet, I'll throw it in again here--FLEETING TERMIE'S??? WTF???


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

*YAWNS* what was this topic about again?, oh yes thats right, the Chaos marine codex


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## Malagate (Jul 28, 2008)

Wraithian said:


> Nope. We pay for our Aspiring Champions. We used to get them for free in our cult squads, if we put them in groups divisible by the sacred number of their deity. That little perk's gone, too, now.


When I hear about cool little fluffy touches like that disappearing it makes me annoyed.

Most of the arguements I've seen in this thread are usually focused on just one or two things that one player dislikes about the other player's codex. Frankly if you want an objective comparison then every aspect of the armies needs to be compared directly, like for like, as well as compared as a whole.

For instance, universal special rules, range of units to choose from, options for those units, number of special characters, power of special characters, overall point costs, vehicle armour and options, all of those need to be compared in purely quantitative values.

As long as no-one writes down stat lines and point costs it should be ok, remember that it should be ok for you to write down a difference in point or stat value though 
i.e. "a CSM is X points cheaper than a SM" where X is replaced with the difference would be ok to say rather than "a CSM is x points but a SM is y points".


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Let me repeat, yet again, that people are less pissed about the power of the codex as much as they are, "What is good for one, is good for all." Since GW kicked chaos in the balls, then the rest of the up coming codeci should be kicked square in the base, too.


Exactly! THIS is the point we are trying to make that some people seem to be ignoring. I am not trying to do a unit by unit comparison between the two books as they are completely different armies from the get go. As I said in a previous post, I don't actually think that the new marine book is overpowered for the most part. What pisses me off is the sheer favouritism being shown to marines by GW over any other army INCLUDING OTHER IMPERIAL MARINES (DA and BA). That is what pisses us Chaos players off more than anything. Not the codex rules themselves or the options you got or how they play or anything, just the fact that we got fucked over royally for the few overpowered things we did have and yet SM's lose basically shit. You complain that the new book size is due to mostly fluff, ok fine. Why didn't Chaos get the same amount of fluff then? Why are our legions gone entirely and renegades the focus, etc, etc, etc.

We are not bitching at marine players themselves for this either, we are bitching at GW for doing it in the first place. Maybe if they spent as much time and effort on other codices as they do on sm's, they would sell more of the rest of the armies they offer to folks. But they refuse to do it and blatantly give everything they can to marines at the cost of everyone else. And THAT is just wrong.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> You have got to be fucking kidding me!!!! For one, the trait system was broken as all hell simply because the drawbacks weren't really drawbacks at all most of the time, and for another that is really all you lost. Not saying it doesn't suck but come on.
> **** ahah chaos calling are trait system broken... lmao 9 obs, 4 difilers, 1dp for iron warriors.. what was there disadvantage again?? i could go through the others but IW is the main one.


True, sort of, but then that was fixed. And THEN they handed Loyalists half a dozen options in all the FOCs (bar troops, but if you don't want Tactical squads, don't play Marines). To say nothing of crap like Shrike, McVindicare and the tank guy.



martin4696 said:


> We lost the rules for 9 FULL LEGIONS, utterly and completely. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't even EXIST anymore beyond a paint scheme. The 4 cults are only represented in a single troop choice now as opposed to when they covered every part of the FOC.
> **** true but there is a STRONG romour about a special codex for them, and by giving people icons rather than marks you can basically get the same lists.


Huh? Same lists? Again, we're verging on the blatantly ignorant here.



martin4696 said:


> ... cult deamons have there own codex...


And this changes the Daemon situation for CSM players how, precisely? It's a separate list! You just said so yourself!



martin4696 said:


> deamon weapons you have new ones (granted not on your DPs but they were ALWAYS to powerful)


... says the guy whose new Codex just handed him Lysander, among other things.



martin4696 said:


> GW completely stripped the chaos codex of 90% of its options, admittedly with good cause, and left it a ridiculously soulless book of cookie cutter armies. Now here comes Codex: Space Marines and they give you a book that is double the size, has all the options you could ask for including some utterly ridiculous things and you bitch because you lost Traits??? Or that you have to go with the 10 man system like any other marine army?
> **** double the size... mainly full of background (space marines are GWs main army so they are going to have more background than anything else), im not seeing all the options i could possibly want... and utter redicluas things??? and yer the same as you are bitching about yours...


One of our chief complaints is that you got way more fluff than we did, and you're countering by saying that you got way more fluff than we did? Since when dd that become a sound strategy in a debate?



martin4696 said:


> And this is different from chaos....how exactly. Last time I checked, a basic csm squad had to be 10 models to have the special/heavy as well.
> **** you can buy a special weapon for a 5 man unit.


Yes, but if we want a heavy, we need ten men, just like you do.

Didn't I just say something about thinking before you post :angry:? You got fair warning, man. De-rep.

[EDIT: Changed wording somewhat.]


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

By giving units marks, you get NOWHERE the same lists. For example, Mark of Nurgle does NOT confer feel no pain, a minus to initiative, and a toughness increase. Just the toughness increase. EVERY mark is the same way. Oh, and let's see, kill the icon bearer, unit is back to being plain chaos marines again. Yeah, sure, "basically," the same lists. No where near, dude. Sorry. 
***** we were talking about old codex to new, you never had feel no pain, or -I in the old codex just T5 and the icon gives you this and is the same for each icon (slanesh dont get there sonic weapons and 1ksons dont get soceras but everything else is the same) so actualy you could make a all "nurgle" are for instance etc..... which was my point

Yeah, we lost parasitic possession. As well as every other god-specific vehicle upgrade. Last I heard, your "Power of the Machine Spirit" got a boost in this dex. Not too sure, as I haven't read that particular rule myself. 
***** we can shoot at a diffent unit but again the point was we lost that UPGRADE.. for are vindicators, preds etc... 

Daemons... I can't believe you just said that, "cult daemons now have their own codex," like it's a fucking good thing. Have you seen the piss poor shit that have replaced our god specific daemons? You know, the pieces of shit that are damn near as expensive as a marine, with no options, no power weapons, no rending, and damn near same stat line as a marine but with no save to justify their points?
***** you can as many scoring units as you can fit as they dont count (althought im 100% sure they can score 99% thought), but yes they took a beating ur new codex

Daemon princes. Have you looked at some of the characters in the marine dex? Some of them have very similar stats to daemon princes, with the addition of cooler rules. So, you got a guy out there, who's basically a miniDP. 
***** pulls out the bull shit call.... no ones ws6, *s6,t6,w4*,a4 (??) winged... and has the beasty powers of all (bar doom and fortune) IMO

Yep. Lessee.... Stat lines similar? Check. Eternal Warrior? Check. Cooler rules than any daemon prince ever thought of having? Check. Small enough so he at least gets some cover from standing behind that chainlink fence when the enemy decides that he's simply too dangerous to live past turn one? Check. So, please, spare us the "ZOMG DPs R teh BORKEN!!!"
***** and again they WERE broken there only broken when u have 2 with lash in the "new" codex imo.... but basically all the marine ones are SLOW and can easily be taken down by simple bolter units that dont care about 3+ invuns etc ... everyone said sams landspeeder was broken when the DAs codex came out how many of them do you see, and i still 100% think abadon could have anyone of the characters in the marine codex.


As for the special/heavy argument... The statement was made in relation to the model count for a special *and* heavy, not a special *or* heavy. So no, marines win, hands down, for their ability to place one heavy and one special in a unit. If we do that in a chaos list, we either screw the abilities of one weapon, or the other. Why? Because we can't combat squad out like you folks.
***** i think i made that argument so *or*.... but you wouldnt take that combo would you, 10 chaos marines 2 plamas/meltas/flamers YES we dont even have that option...

Let me repeat, yet again, that people are less pissed about the power of the codex as much as they are, "What is good for one, is good for all." Since GW kicked chaos in the balls, then the rest of the up coming codeci should be kicked square in the base, too.
***** you have been leveled off NOT kicked in the bollocks, IMO the same as us no ass cannon armies of doom, 6 devs, 6 ven dreads, min maxin etc.....

But hey, if you want to continue the, "your army is more broken than mine," thing, that's cool. Just in case no-one's picked up on it yet, I'll throw it in again here--FLEETING TERMIE'S??? WTF???
***** ow no not fleeting terminators :laugh::laugh::laugh: thats harsh because... completly against the background and fluff? YES actualy being broken/cheese/harsh? hardly


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

True, sort of, but then that was fixed. And THEN they handed Loyalists half a dozen options in all the FOCs (bar troops, but if you don't want Tactical squads, don't play Marines).
***** we had 4 more special characters, 2 more elites, 2 more fast attack and 2 more heavy thats it 

To say nothing of crap like Shrike, McVindicare and the tank guy.
*****still waiting for a worth while reason to take either/all of them

Huh? Same lists? Again, we're verging on the blatantly ignorant here.
***** please reread my original post.... or the one above this one...

... says the guy whose new Codex just handed him Lysander, among other things.
*****still waiting for a worth while reason to take him...


One of our chief complaints is that you got way more fluff than we did, and you're countering by saying that you got way more fluff than we did? Since when dd that become a sound strategy in a debate?
***** dont really understand we got more fluff cos SPACE MARINES MAKE 40K 

Yes, but if we want a heavy, we need ten men, just like you do.
*****true dont see many/if at all taking them thought if they take normal marines to start with normaly dual specialist like other post said.

p.s inquisitor **** i really wanted to send you another mail lol but i have the same thing set up emails per message lol and i "may" be a nice guy but im one of the most stubornist motherfuckers you will ever "meet" once im on a "subject/topic" you will very rarly get me off it... i think most of its oppion and i believe yours will change once the whole "new codex syndrome" calms down... (not all but mainly to the "woop ass killing machine characters" that i really dont see but you seem to. XXX


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

you all need to post in a manner that can be read, if you want to do a point by point analysis, fine, but use the copy and paste function to copy the codes that makes the text a quote. this takes a few seconds and makes posts legible.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> True, sort of, but then that was fixed. And THEN they handed Loyalists half a dozen options in all the FOCs (bar troops, but if you don't want Tactical squads, don't play Marines).
> ***** we had 4 more special characters, 2 more elites, 2 more fast attack and 2 more heavy thats it


and that totals 10 more options.


martin4696 said:


> To say nothing of crap like Shrike, McVindicare and the tank guy.
> *****still waiting for a worth while reason to take either/all of them


just because you don't take them, doesn't mean that they aren't better.
each of the special characters allow a player that takes them to break one or more of the game's rules with the special rules they give, for example, telion allows the player controlling him to allocate the wounds he causes.


martin4696 said:


> Huh? Same lists? Again, we're verging on the blatantly ignorant here.
> ***** please reread my original post.... or the one above this one...


regardless of what the mark gave, the mark did the same thing foe ANY unit given it. it also did more than grant t5, but alsd fearless and true grit. 

It isn't bordering on ignorance to say that it is the same list, it is ignorance, due to not seeing the differences in a 4e list ans a 5e list. when the game transitioned from 2e to 3e, and then from 3e to 4e, the lists were equivalent to each other. this is no longer the case. a havoc squad with mon in 5e is inferior to the same squad from 4e, as it is no longer fearless, and loses the mark altogether if the icon bearer is killed.


martin4696 said:


> ... says the guy whose new Codex just handed him Lysander, among other things.
> *****still waiting for a worth while reason to take him...
> again, just because you choose not to use him, it doesn't make him worthless. it isnt unreasonable to equate some of the space marine specials to demon princes, look at chappie cassius, he is t6, not t4(6), or even t5(6), but just t6. that was supposed to be reserved for monstrous creatures, and monstrous creatures alone. in addition to their stats, wargear, and special rules, they are marine sized models that are treated as independent chatacters, which improves their odds of survival.





martin4696 said:


> One of our chief complaints is that you got way more fluff than we did, and you're countering by saying that you got way more fluff than we did? Since when dd that become a sound strategy in a debate?
> ***** dont really understand we got more fluff cos SPACE MARINES MAKE 40K


no, they don't. *ALL* of the armies in the game make 40k, not just one. *ALL* deserve good, consistent fluff that has continuity to each other, and the main game storyline.


martin4696 said:


> Yes, but if we want a heavy, we need ten men, just like you do.
> *****true dont see many/if at all taking them thought if they take normal marines to start with normaly dual specialist like other post said.


too bad. you cant have everything you want. the restriction is for the same reason that access to power weapons was restricted starting in 3e, it got ridiculous.


martin4696 said:


> Didn't I just say something about thinking before you post :angry:? You got fair warning, man. De-rep.
> ***** i think you should as well really, and ow noooo :shok::shok:
> 
> p.s inquisitor **** i really wanted to send you another mail lol but i have the same thing set up emails per message lol and i "may" be a nice guy but im one of the most stubornist motherfuckers you will ever "meet" once im on a "subject/topic" you will very rarly get me off it... i think most of its oppion and i believe yours will change once the whole "new codex syndrome" calms down... (not all but mainly to the "woop ass killing machine characters" that i really dont see but you seem to. XXX


first of all, this is supposed to be "family friendly", so try to keep it pg. secondly, let's keep it friendly, just because we disagree, it doesn't mean we cant be civil.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

and that totals 10 more options.
***** unsure of what your point is here unless your just stating the added up total?? we also lost units.

just because you don't take them, doesn't mean that they aren't better.
each of the special characters allow a player that takes them to break one or more of the game's rules with the special rules they give, for example, telion allows the player controlling him to allocate the wounds he causes.
*****true but i have already been through my reasons why i dont rate him for his/there points cost

regardless of what the mark gave, the mark did the same thing foe ANY unit given it. it also did more than grant t5, but alsd fearless and true grit. 
***** i thought icons did make them fearlesss tbh and like i have already true grit has no effect in your new codex at all, you all have 2 c.c.ws as well as bolters 

It isn't bordering on ignorance to say that it is the same list, it is ignorance, due to not seeing the differences in a 4e list ans a 5e list. when the game transitioned from 2e to 3e, and then from 3e to 4e, the lists were equivalent to each other. this is no longer the case. a havoc squad with mon in 5e is inferior to the same squad from 4e, as it is no longer fearless, and loses the mark altogether if the icon bearer is killed.
***** my original point was you could basically (i prity sure i said BASICALLY) make the same list or very close and by using icons you can. and oviously its inferior mainly due to wound alocation (5th ed) than the codex thought.

no, they don't. *ALL* of the armies in the game make 40k, not just one. *ALL* deserve good, consistent fluff that has continuity to each other, and the main game storyline.
*****ERM YES THEY DO (but thats a side topic, if you want to start a new one be my guest and i will give my reasons, or mail me), they really do!! and everyone has fluff my point was loyalist have MORE

too bad. you cant have everything you want. the restriction is for the same reason that access to power weapons was restricted starting in 3e, it got ridiculous.
***** erm *confused face*


first of all, this is supposed to be "family friendly", so try to keep it pg. secondly, let's keep it friendly, just because we disagree, it doesn't mean we cant be civil.
***** was that just aimed at me or a couple of people,if it was just at me then looking at the posts befor mine and around the forum i thougth that was OK tbh


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## Death 0F Angels (Feb 27, 2008)

Its the first codex of 5th, not that i enjoy the way the SM codex was set up but lets just hope the next codex's they bring out are on an equal level. Going to pick it up tonight and give it a looksie so i havent a great opinion on it yet. Ill save comments till im done reading the dex. I am leaning towards agreeing with what has been posted by Wraithlord. I must admit i got tired of hearing the same arguements half way through though. Id also like to mention that my store has been selling out of the dex since its arrival. Never seen a dex go like that before.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> regardless of what the mark gave, the mark did the same thing foe ANY unit given it. it also did more than grant t5, but alsd fearless and true grit.
> ***** i thought icons did make them fearlesss tbh and like i have already true grit has no effect in your new codex at all, you all have 2 c.c.ws as well as bolters
> 
> It isn't bordering on ignorance to say that it is the same list, it is ignorance, due to not seeing the differences in a 4e list ans a 5e list. when the game transitioned from 2e to 3e, and then from 3e to 4e, the lists were equivalent to each other. this is no longer the case. a havoc squad with mon in 5e is inferior to the same squad from 4e, as it is no longer fearless, and loses the mark altogether if the icon bearer is killed.
> ***** my original point was you could basically (i prity sure i said BASICALLY) make the same list or very close and by using icons you can. and oviously its inferior mainly due to wound alocation (5th ed) than the codex thought.


saying that it is "basically" the same list is the same as saying that it is the same list. to say otherwise is semantics. the way wounds are allocated isn't the problem, the codex is. the writer did not bother to consider the rules that were about to be released in less than a year when the decision to make the marks icon based was made. there were more than the marks, legion players lost wargear options that added to the flavor of their armies, such as nurgling infestation, and combat drugs. we lost the biggest stick we could hit other chaos players with when they went and got beardy on us: legion specific rules making certain units no longer allowed, such as no nurgle bikes or raptors.




martin4696 said:


> *****ERM YES THEY DO (but thats a side topic, if you want to start a new one be my guest and i will give my reasons, or mail me), they really do!! and everyone has fluff my point was loyalist have MOR
> 
> 
> first of all, this is supposed to be "family friendly", so try to keep it pg. secondly, let's keep it friendly, just because we disagree, it doesn't mean we cant be civil.
> ***** was that just aimed at me or a couple of people,if it was just at me then looking at the posts befor mine and around the forum i thougth that was OK tbh


the comment was in part directed at the post, and in part to remind everybody to calm down. just because others weren't " family friendly", it does not mean that you shouldn't be "family friendly." the overall context, with the combative post and the language was why I responded.
As for whether or not Space marines "make" 40k, it is childish to simply say "yes they are," back it up. When I posted that they didn't "make" the game, I pointed out that you were giving short shrift to ALL of the other things that make 4ok what it is. Games workshop made games that were All about space marines, Space hulk, and an even older game called Space Marine.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> and that totals 10 more options.
> ***** unsure of what your point is here unless your just stating the added up total?? we also lost units.
> 
> just because you don't take them, doesn't mean that they aren't better.
> ...


...you must be some new kind of stupid. Spell better or gtfo, your posts reek of trolling.

Seriously, have you seen the old codex? I found it again today. That thing is a monster, it has upgrades that make sense and no stupid-ass icons. Leaders costed less, and we could also have veteran skills...and we had an armoury. An armoury with point costs relative to the power of the weapon. None of this fifteen-point plasma pistol nonsense. We got a sweet deal with supergrit but lost EVERYTHING else.

All of our aspiring champs skyrocketed in cost for no benefit at all.

Meanwhile. At the hall of spess mehreens.

"Derpaherp, add sum moar fun rools that break mehreens!"

Our current codex is bland, unfun, and honestly half baked. The old one was a masterpeice of gaming, with good point totals and fun lists.

But more to the point of the thread, space marines got WAY WAY too much in the new codex, while every other one was dumbed down, and in some cases, nuetered.

If you -really- want, I'll break down and defeat your argument post-by-post, but I refuse to be trolled by some space marine kid. De-repped.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LordWaffles said:


> The old one was a masterpeice of gaming, with good point totals and fun lists.


I think masterpiece is going a little........no very over the top, the previous one was a mess in its construction and alternative lists

although with a little tidying up, and getting rid of useless powers and abilities, it might of been decent compared to the new one.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

[you must be some new kind of stupid. Spell better or gtfo, your posts reek of trolling.
***** erm sorry spelt 1 work incorrect in that post (had 3 Ses in instead of 2)

Seriously, have you seen the old codex? I found it again today. That thing is a monster, it has upgrades that make sense and no stupid-ass icons. Leaders costed less, and we could also have veteran skills...and we had an armoury. An armoury with point costs relative to the power of the weapon. None of this fifteen-point plasma pistol nonsense. We got a sweet deal with supergrit but lost EVERYTHING else.
***** leaders cost less all round i think (old codex compared to new), and with the trait system we could have basically have vet skills on most units (important worth while ones)... we had an armoury (they have all gone with the new layout), we also pay 15 points for a plasma pistol (so your point is??), you lost the 9 legions and i sick DP thats NOT everything

All of our aspiring champs skyrocketed in cost for no benefit at all.
***** have no codex with me but think its only the PF that went up (or did in the marine codex so guessin in yours as well)

But more to the point of the thread, space marines got WAY WAY too much in the new codex, while every other one was dumbed down, and in some cases, nuetered.
***** still awaiting answers and not just telling me what they do i have the codex and already know that, but in the big picture its prity small.

If you -really- want, I'll break down and defeat your argument post-by-post, but I refuse to be trolled by some space marine kid. De-repped.
***** please, and im defo not a kid, and go for it.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> [you must be some new kind of stupid. Spell better or gtfo, your posts reek of trolling.
> ***** erm sorry spelt 1 work incorrect in that post (had 3 Ses in instead of 2)
> 
> Seriously, have you seen the old codex? I found it again today. That thing is a monster, it has upgrades that make sense and no stupid-ass icons. Leaders costed less, and we could also have veteran skills...and we had an armoury. An armoury with point costs relative to the power of the weapon. None of this fifteen-point plasma pistol nonsense. We got a sweet deal with supergrit but lost EVERYTHING else.
> ...


You might not be a kid, but most of the kids here take the time to read other posts, such as using the quote button, and taking the time to make your response legible. You are acting like a kid, with the "no they didn't" posts, where you  say that you don't have the 'dex available to refer to. You can't express such an opinion without something to back it up, and not expect others to call you on it. At this point it is obvious you are not bringing anything to the discussion, and are only responding in order to be difficult and immature.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Holy hell this has become pathetic. 

Each of you seem to have devolved to the level of trolls, even LordWaffles, who seems to use the shield of calling other people trolls to avoid being called one himself.

We're now on the 12th page, and the argument has gone round in circles. The same points have been made a dozen times over, and as everybody knows, nobody solves any arguements over the Internet. So why bother trying? 

'Course, nobody listens to anybody on the internet either, so I'm pretty sure this post will get ignored too, or I'll have abuse slung at me, since in a way, I'm insulting all the people who are posting in this thread. 

Before you do lunge at me with your keyboards, just think, "wouldn't my time be better spent making a cup of tea?"


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

beenburned said:


> Holy hell this has become pathetic.
> 
> Each of you seem to have devolved to the level of trolls, even LordWaffles, who seems to use the shield of calling other people trolls to avoid being called one himself.
> 
> ...



Here Here!


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## von_vodka (Oct 19, 2008)

Just to add one more whining voice to both chaos and SM dex's, I played alpha legion... entire strategy lost in both dex's, what with possessed being the only unit in chaos that could get infiltrate, and scouts in the new SM one... In theory i could make them just another vanilla list, but that's just not hip...or with it for that matter.

(apologies if this point has been made, i just didnt want to have to read through 11 pages just to check...)


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I just made a cup of tea :grin:. OK now, when I set out to post this thread, I was in shock from just reading the new SM codex. Everyones opinion on the mattter of the SM codex is welcome as far as I'm concerned. There is no wrong answer (except those who break the forum rules). But to compare to 'previous' editions is kinda not right. The 4th ed Chaos codex was over the top (my opinion) but we no longer use that book! The current one is the one we got. Period. The 5th ed SM Codex has to be compared to what other players will be fielding from the relevant codex. 

I am NOT bashing SM players. I actually feel sorry for you lot, because you all will hear comments about the new Codex which you MUST use in order to field SM armies. The new SM Codex affects 2 groups of 40k players: The Space Marine Players and everyone else who has to face them on the tabletop. My biggest point is based on all the other 5th ed Codexes, seem to be following a streamlining process which the 5th SM Codex is clearly NOT following. I have a lot of years playing many tabletop games (as I'm sure a lot of members do as well), I just see many examples in the new Codex that unbalance otherwise a great game.

I wanted intelligent discussion(which I believe we have) for this topic. Personnal attacks on other members intelligence is not what I was hoping for. Even if a point is incorrect, you can inform the person to stay on track.

A big thanks to those who were patient enough to read through and comment(instead of assembling/painting our armies). I can't but feel pride that my little thread made it this far. 

Final note: I haven't lost track of why I play this game. If I have to face some strong, slightly unbalanced SM armies, so be it. I will continue to play in the spirit of the game(which is to have FUN!) and try to lead by example.

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

World Eater


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. The amount of 3+ inv saves available makes me sick, especially on multiwound eternal warriors, the fact that the librarian is hands down better than the chaos sorc from the get go, and other things irritates me quite a bit. However, the single thing that bothers me the most is that the new SM codex is nothing more than a slap in the face and a big 'fuck you' from GW to all the chaos players out there. After boning our codex and stripping 90% of it from us, they turn around and hand so much stuff to marine players it isn't funny.
> 
> Thanks GW :fuck:uke:


I agree with you 100%. Hey Wraith didnt you and I get into a disagreement over the Chaos codex? It was awhile back. I said the Chaos codex was an abysmal abortion and you defended it. Well its good to see youve seen the light. I guess you needed to see the new Loyalist codex to see the railroading we Chaos players received.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Yeah we did. My difference of opinion was based on the idea that we can still make viable, competitive lists with it, which we can. But there is no doubt we lost so much shit it wasn't funny and from a fluff perspective, which I believe was your stand, it is certainly not up to par.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Yeah we did. My difference of opinion was based on the idea that we can still make viable, competitive lists with it, which we can. But there is no doubt we lost so much shit it wasn't funny and from a fluff perspective, which I believe was your stand, it is certainly not up to par.


That was my point. well now I have 32 Berserkers, 18 Rubric Marines and about 20+ Noise Marines to Bolster my "Deathguard Army". In the end I took your advice and mixed and matched. Ive got all of the special characters also. Of course its all painted. Maybe some day in the future we'll be able to have a flavorful fun codex again. Until then It Chaos Undivided for me or Chaos Glory...whatever it is now. I liked Chaos Undivided.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

What I find to complete bull is that it's meant to display codex chapters but Squads from DA and BA follow the codex astartes better than the units in this codex do. DA and BA have to have either 5 or 10 men, Which would be squads from a codex chapter, This one allows any number between 5 and 10.... that's not a codex style. It's bull....


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> What I find to complete bull is that it's meant to display codex chapters but Squads from DA and BA follow the codex astartes better than the units in this codex do. DA and BA have to have either 5 or 10 men, Which would be squads from a codex chapter, This one allows any number between 5 and 10.... that's not a codex style. It's bull....


Hail,

Yes indeed. And both DA and BA have special characters that are exclusive to particular Gene-seed and successor Chapters(meaning you can an Azreal character, but only in a DA army). The new SM codex allows you to essentially use characters and bonuses from theoretically other Chapters and reap the benefits to suit your needs, not the background. So you can buy an Ultramarines army, but have White Scars and Salamanders styles, just to suit your tabletop needs. Then switch to Ravenguard and Crimson Fists. So much for liking a Chapter for its fluff and its 'own' tactics on warfare.

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

World Eater said:


> Hail,
> 
> Yes indeed. And both DA and BA have special characters that are exclusive to particular Gene-seed and successor Chapters(meaning you can an Azreal character, but only in a DA army). The new SM codex allows you to essentially use characters and bonuses from theoretically other Chapters and reap the benefits to suit your needs, not the background. So you can buy an Ultramarines army, but have White Scars and Salamanders styles, just to suit your tabletop needs. Then switch to Ravenguard and Crimson Fists. So much for liking a Chapter for its fluff and its 'own' tactics on warfare.
> 
> ...


You can still play the game based around "Fluff" tactics. The rules simply allow a player to build his own chapter with heros that he can use.

Considering that almost every named character for Chaos is not "attached" to a particular army, with the exception of Abbadon and Huron, you can use whichever one you want. 

Why deny that to a Space Marine player? Because we want to use our own color scheme and name we're not allowed to have a legandary unit? Hardly seems fair from a gameplay stand point.

just my opinion.

Also you don't have to play a DA or BA army to use their hero's. it mentions in the BA codex you can play a successor chapter and still use all the heros of the BA. You only need to use their special rules


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

^ Aye. I use a proxied Cato Sicarius to get back one of the things I used to use Doctrines for.... well, kinda.

My guys aren't even using Ultramarines Gene-seed... But the beauty of Captain Blandy is that he translates well.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> You can still play the game based around "Fluff" tactics. The rules simply allow a player to build his own chapter with heros that he can use.
> 
> Considering that almost every named character for Chaos is not "attached" to a particular army, with the exception of Abbadon and Huron, you can use whichever one you want.
> 
> ...



Comparing any SM hero with any Chaos hero is hardly fair. Abaddon doesn't make our army fleet. Ahriman doesn't make our army infiltrate. Kharn doesn't make any of our elites scoring. Fabius Bile doesn't add 1 attack to everyone within 12". You get the idea. :wink:

I know what we need. We need a :beatingadeadhorse: emote. :biggrin:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Considering that almost every named character for Chaos is not "attached" to a particular army, with the exception of Abbadon and Huron, you can use whichever one you want.


Ahriman - Thousand Sons
Typhus - Death Guard
Kharn - World Eaters
Lucius - Emperors Children 
Abbadon - Black Legion
Huron - Red Corsairs

Fabius Bile is the -only- special character not associated with a specific legion in our codex. If I threw Lucius in with my Tson army most people would shake their heads wondering what I was thinking of fluff wise.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Also you don't have to play a DA or BA army to use their hero's. it mentions in the BA codex you can play a successor chapter and still use all the heros of the BA. You only need to use their special rules[/QUOTE]
Hail,

That's what I meant to say. Use Azreal, call your DA something else, but you use the DA list (pros and cons). BA as well. Use Mephiston, but use the Blood Angels rules. Not use Belial and Deathwing along with a Forge father and call it your own chapter and claim it fluffy by combining two chapters.

The mix and match of Chaos Special characters, allowed by the codex is not one I agree with at all. Kharn and Typhus should NOT be in the same army. Period. The only exception would be Apocalypse, where all kinds of crazy lists occur. But in example, I see more 'fluffy' Chaos lists than Loyalist counterparts right here on Heresy.

But I'm just being biased 

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

World Eater


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Ahriman - Thousand Sons
> Typhus - Death Guard
> Kharn - World Eaters
> Lucius - Emperors Children
> ...


Ahriman was exiled from his legion, the world eaters are now just small roaming war bands that work with other Chaos armies, the emperors children was smashed by abbadon himself, though the death guard is still around in force. Fabius Bile was a member of the emperors children though it mentions explictly in the codex that he is a free agent.

Considering this you could use Ahriman, Kharn, or Lucius in any chaos army that is a mix and match type in addition to a soild army of 1 faction of chaos. You could bend the fluff to make it work, which is something that the normal space marines do not have. Due to the fact that all the special characters in the SM codex are commanders of a specific space marine company it'd be really tough to explain why shrike is leading another chapter into battle.



> Comparing any SM hero with any Chaos hero is hardly fair. Abaddon doesn't make our army fleet. Ahriman doesn't make our army infiltrate. Kharn doesn't make any of our elites scoring. Fabius Bile doesn't add 1 attack to everyone within 12". You get the idea.
> 
> I know what we need. We need a :beatingadeadhorse: emote.


If you compare the SM 4th editions heros to the Chaos it's even less fair. This thread is compairing a codex built around 4th edition rules to the first NEW codex for 5th edition. Everything is thrown out the window. This thread reflects the same mentality people have when a new expansion for a MMO comes out. "Well all the old stuff is just not as good as the new stuff and I want my new stuff NOW" until they get it then NOBODY cares. 5th edition chaos codex comes out and no one is gonna remember this argument at all.

World Eater I agree with you about seeing Fluffy army lists, I love the fluff for 40k. its why I play, but for a little while thats just the way its gonna go.

And for the record we are not beating a dead horse. We are simply poking it. :wink:

Sometimes hard :laugh:


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