# Help! Chaos Marines



## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I am just starting chaos space marines and would like some advice on what units i should get and what not to get. Also where can i get them cheap?
Thanks for reading!


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Welcome to Heresy!

I'm not a Chaos expert but this is a questionyour going to have to ask yourself before you play. Do you want a fluffy, friendly or competive list? This will help everyone surgest the best units for you 

Have a look at some online 40k sellers for cheap models. One I use is 40kempire, but there are plenty of others. Its just a matter of browsing through them.

Hope this helps out a bit, I'm sure some experienced Chaos playerswill help you from here


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Welcome to the game!

This is not a cheap hobby, it's just a good hobby .

Do you have a gaming club to go to? Or just a few friends? Buying warhammer from a warhammer shop seems reasonable, finding online retailers that will sell to you at a discount seems reasonable, buying from ebay is probably not worth it unless the models are still in the box untouched.

Chaos space marines have a lot of variety. A lot of veterans will argue that the new codex has taken away of lot of the character of the chaos army, and this is true, but there are still many decisions to make when deciding what army you will play.

I think it'd be a good idea to pick one or two gods and use their troops then throw in some good units like obliterators.

Which gods interest you?

Since you're in the UK it's probably reasonable for you to use two winged daemon prices with lash of submission. It's certainly not reasonable for anyone to use that here.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I think i am going to start a red corsairs army with some khorne berserkers in it
it might not seem very fluffy but seen as its a force of pirates and stuff like that i think berserkers would be in it.
Will probably have Huron Blackheart in a big unit of berserkers. A couple of squads of normal chaos space marines, a pair of oblits, thousand sons squad(good for killing termies and meqs) and maybe a dp
Are normal marines any good or should i focus on more elite things


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

http://bolterandchainsword.com/csms...0505&tr=EBD513&bg=FFFFFF&rb=F01111&gr=1A1414&


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

There doesn't seem to be any conventional wisdom on chaos space marines, but I'll challenge everyone who reads this topic to publicly disagree with me if they disagree:

Stick all your regular CSM squads in rhinos. Then they're pretty good.


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## Tigurius_89 (Apr 11, 2009)

as suggested, you could start with a pair of winged dp with lash of submission, and some oblits a defiler or a vindicator (first you use the lash to move and mass the enemy unit, then go with hvy plasma gun, battle cannons or demolisher). As troop choices take berzerkers or plague marines. 
though it's a good combination, it's very annoying for your opponent, so don't use it too much


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## daemonprinceofchaos (Aug 4, 2008)

i have been playing csm for 13 years the army you are looking at red corsairs is a good one it relies on bikes, chosen and terminators.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

Ive changed my mind a bit my legion will be called the black hands (see picture in previous post for colour scheme). Their leader Ferro Bock left the red corsairs with some followers after a disagreement with Huron and made his own legion. It is very similar to red corsairs except to boost numbers he has let exiles from other legions such as the thousand sons and world eaters join and has more daemons than the rc. 

As it is newly founded and small they do not have very many advanced vehicles such as demolishers, bikes and predators. They however rely on rhinos and defilers and other more common vehicles. Their one predator is called the fist of darkness and is highly prized. Due to their smal numbers they rely on small hard-hitting attacks and have a higher than average number of elites in their army.

They have little resources after a clash with abbaddons black legion which has left half their numbers have been killed. Allegedly Abbaddon did not complete the attack and slaughter the remnants of the legion because he was so impressed by how hard they fought. 

They fled into the outskirts of the eye of terror and have occupied the ancient derelict fortress-world of Malaki which is surrounded by an asteroid field. On Malaki's only moon Malaki Sextus lie several massive factorys which the Black Hands are currently using to re-arm the forces and build a fleet to rival the red corsairs. They have built fortresses and outposts on many of the asteroids. Although the black hands may be weak at the moment they are growing quickly and making raids on civilised space to get materials and slaves for their factorys.

They have recieved reinforcements from the remnants of the 665th Blood Pact Death Brigade which fled into the asteroid field and were captured by the Black Hands. The Blood Pact Commander Korax signed an alliance with the black hands and now his best troops are being turned into Chaos Marines and his troops and ships are patroling the Black Hands small empire, manning the fortresses defences and controlling the factorys of Malaki Sextus.

The Black Hands fleet is small but powerful consisting of fast cruisers and heavily armed destroyers. The only capital ships are the "palm of destruction", Bocks flagship and Commander Corax's ship "the thumb of terror." They have a highly skilled if undisciplined fighter wing under the command of Captain Nailer named "the fast fingers". They are often the cause of arguments as Nailers pilots will destroy everything including the precious material which is vital to the black hands cause.

Isolated in their asteroid field, they are believed destroyed so uninvolved in any major wars but as they rise in power a major offensive which will result in an entire Imperial System being in their control. Capturing it will be easy but will the Black Hands be able to hold it against the inevitable Imperial counter attack and rival Chaos warbands?
Only time will tell...

Any feedback will be appreciated and i would be grateful if you leave some.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

I'd suggest two winged princes with lash. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many Chaos players actually have any originality anymore?! Thats all anyone suggests. It's the most over-used, over-powered, under-priced combination in the game.

On the plus side I like the fluff, well done.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I am actually trying to avoid a pair of dps with lash as so many use it. I might add a dp but only one and without lash as i want have some originalty also i dont particularly like the model.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Don't underestimate the power of regular CSM. They're probably the best troops in the game. They've got bolters and bolt pistol/CCW and frag and krak grenades and they can be Ld 10 and can get the ability to reroll that or another really cool mark (khorne is another good one to make them almost as good at CC as berserkers). Frequently I see people taking more expensive cult troops that don't really make up the extra cost and almost always sacrifice versatility. Berserkers are nice for CC, but sometimes you want to take your opponent out at range or can't get close enough for CC. Noise marines are pretty much never worth it. Plague marines are nice but marines are already pretty resistant to small arms fire but battlecannons, plasma, and similar ap2-/str8+ap3- kill plague marines just as well as they do regular marines.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I have posted my fluff in this thread as well as a bit more in the homebrewed fluff section if anyone wants to read the extra bits about its organisation and an bit more about its fleet.

Also i have bought some new terminators off ebay for a tenner and will post some pics if i can figure out how. Any help will be appreciated. 

I am going to buy the battleforce, a squad of thousand sons and maybe a couple of obliterators or havocs whichever is better and a chaos terminator lord and a daemon with some money i will get from my guard army which is being sold on ebay already.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Culler said:


> Noise marines are pretty much never worth it.QUOTE]
> 
> gotta disagree with you here bub,
> 
> ...


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

No offence, m3rrk3k but i dont really like the noise marines models and i cant afford them anyway 
And i have the thousand sons for shooting stuff
and a small 5 man chaos squad for sitting on objectives


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

none taken, everyone leans to their own preference anyways. Personally, I hate Tsons... think the models look stupid & find them point for point the most expensive troop choices in the game... (of course, not IRL $$ wise...)

... That & real men wear pink.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

(From another thread):
Troops:
Berserkers-take points
WS+1 and furious charge make them UNBELIEVABLY good against orks mobs, loyalist jerks, and even most other races and ideals. They outperform even power weapon possessed. Woo. Nobody likes to see these guys charging/riding down the field because they know that these are one of the first and foremost close combat marines. Place two plasma pistols in the squad for chasing after tanks/mcs and you're in good shape.

Plague marines-keep points
With 5T and Feel-no-pain these guys aren't going anywhere. Add that to the defensive grenades and you have a very steadfast unit of reliability.
Also they can pack more weaponry in a smaller squad. Perfect for pot shots with plasma.

Thousand sons-don't take
Why would you even need more ap3 fire? Anything we kill that has a 3+ we have much better ways of killing. In example, with vindicator shells, power fists, defilers, obliterator plasma cannons, etc. They don't fill any existing niche and having a 4+ invul save these days isn't that great due to everyone getting a 4+ cover save, and in close combat they'll still ALWAYS fail one out of every three saves. They're expensive for what they can do.

Slaanesh marines-good vs horde
They strike before marines...yaaaay. Unfortunately most things in the galaxy don't care about I5(most eldar are the same or higher. orks are too low for it to matter, etc) They can pump alot of shots into a horde but with the comeabout of constant cover, it's not what it used to be.
In my eyes, they cost too much. I'm paying for a berzerker, without the berzerker.

Vanillas-good at babysitting
Unfortunately they're meh at any job you put them up to. With no option for fearless(aside fabulous bile. Don't take fabulous bile) they'll lose combat to any other CC troop choice, and run either off the board or be caught with the meh initiative. It's nice having frag/krak bolter/bp/cww. It really is. It means we can rabble with loyalists.
But we lose to any real troop choice(Ork. Zerk) in CC. Which is a huge problem.
And without fearless or cheap options for cover, they aren't stellar at shooting. People say they're statistically better than loyalists, which is great for us. Problem is, they're worse than orks. And that's a big problem. I highly recommend taking the cult troops instead as they excel at the one area they cover, but can flex enough to deal with other problems.

Elites:
Possessed-are bad but nifty.
Deploying a unit on the battlefield is crucial toward winning. To know what the unit excels at, decides where it is placed.
Guess what we don't know about possessed. And at a whopping melta bomb and khorne berzerker price, these guys are NOT worth that much. They also have no guns or gear options aside from a shoddy, expensive icon. Terminators kill heavy targets better. Zerks kill light infantry better. I don't know what they were thinking. I suppose you might grab ten, a champ, and an armoured rhino for a scout move. But than when they get into early combat you aren't doing much at all. Some argue they're worth it. Again this is a unit that has the curse of the unimaginative, unaware codex writers that didn't playtest or work very hard. Avoid at any cost.

Dreadnoughts-aren't horrific, fun to play
It's what mid-tier chaos players use to spice up the game. You'll find yourself cursing the name they exist by the time you reach a tournament though. When you play a game resolved on tactics, you must remain in control of your unit at all times. Otherwise they'll burst from cover into a lascannon nest, or dual-shot plasma can your own men. You might find running two of them side by side with dual CCW and flamers works. I found that having stupid tanks sucks.

Chosen-five man or nothing
Five guys, all have the same weapon. Infiltrate. Done.

Terminators-nice support?
Take tzeentchian terminators in a five man squad with mixed weaponry. On average they'll almost always do enough to justify spending points on them. Unless you take a reaper. Those are awful. If you buy terminators, take a few combis, they can deepstrike without scatter if you have an icon nearbye. This is very good. If five terminators pop down and open with combis, they tend to make bad people disapear.

HQ:
We have many threads debating the various usefulness of our choices. In short, pick the choice that appeals to you most, and play with it.
When you have trouble, use a flying, lash of submissioning daemon prince. He is the best one.
I used to be rather fond of the blissgiver lord. He isn't terrible for the points, it's just that the dp is a stronger choice.

Fast Attack:
Raptors-five with two meltas or none at all

Spawn-don't exist. See other threads.

Bikes-Very expensive. Not fearless

I'll edit this later probably lol. Huron blackheart and undivided marines are a tournament trap!


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> I'd suggest two winged princes with lash. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> How many Chaos players actually have any originality anymore?! Thats all anyone suggests. It's the most over-used, over-powered, under-priced combination in the game.
> 
> On the plus side I like the fluff, well done.


Congratulations for being the first person in this thread to suggest it.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

For my army list i am going to do;
1 chaos terminator lord, 5 termies, 10 csm, 8 tsons, 10 berzerkers, 1 rhino 2 obliterators and maybe a dp


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

Can anyone tell me how to get pictures on to this thread?


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

jack said:


> Can anyone tell me how to get pictures on to this thread?


there is an image link or just copy and paste these: {IMG} and {/IMG} Then just put your pictures link in between the two tags (Just Change the { } to [])


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Vanillas-good at babysitting
> Unfortunately they're meh at any job you put them up to. With no option for fearless(aside fabulous bile. Don't take fabulous bile) they'll lose combat to any other CC troop choice, and run either off the board or be caught with the meh initiative.


A 20-man squad of vanilla CSM with an icon of Khorne is pound for pound one of the best assault squads in the game. Sure it's 370 points for the squad + icon + champion with powerfist but they can take a 30-man slugga mob without breaking a sweat and be ready for more. 
Typically an engagement between these two groups would go something like this: CSM shoot 24" with bolters, kill 6.67. CSM move and rapid fire, kill 13.33. 10 Orks actually make it into CC, getting the charge. Negligible shooting from orks, maybe kill 1 CSM. CSM get 54 attacks, killing a little over 11.25, leaving none. Berserkers can do the same for a higher cost but have much worse shooting, so are generally facing 24 orks instead of 10, need the charge on their side to be at maximum efficacy, and cost more to do it. 
Even starting in melee against a slugga mob without shooting them apart first the vanilla CSM do a good job. We'll say no one gets the charge to make things simpler. CSM strike first, kill almost 12. Slugga Boyz strike next, killing almost 3. Nob kills 1.5 with his klaw, let's say 2. Champion does the same with fist. CSM lose 5 total, sluggas lose 14. Sluggas take No Retreat! casualties to the tune of 7.5. End of the round and CSM have lost 5 while orks have lost approx. 21. Next round the CSM finish them off, sustaining maybe another couple casualties. Even the depleted squad is ready to tackle another ork mob, especially if they can shoot. Granted, a slugga mob typically only runs 220 points with a PK nob and bosspole, but even taking on two squads at once with no shooting the CSM still manage to inflict heavy losses and the berserkers would do no better in the same situation. Actually, for their points, they'd do slightly worse, costing 136% what a CSM costs (including the cost of the icon divided amongst the squad) for 133% more hits. The difference that one round of rapid firing or 2 rounds of shooting into an ork mob which the CSM can do from 12" away is about the same as the difference between how many the berserkers kill without a charge and how many the CSM kill without a charge. The difference between CSM shooting one round without rapid firing and then charging and berserkers charging is almost negligible, with a very small advantage to the berserkers. And they cost 136% of what a CSM costs.
So basically all that buys you is fearless instead of Ld 10, which is nice, but I like the flexibility and increased striking range of the vanilla CSM. 

However, if you're looking to put a squad in a transport for melee goodness, I'd go with berzerkers because the striking distance thing becomes less important, fewer CSM means the icon isn't quite as useful, and space on the transport is at a premium so more expensive models with a slight edge are a good thing. For footsloggers I'd go with CSM.
I think the reason more people prefer zerkers is that while it may be unlikely to fail Ld 10, it's impossible to fail fearless, and they tend to equip berserkers with only things they can use for melee while they equip CSM with ranged stuff and then wonder why the CSM aren't earning their points back in CC.

Also, anyone tried a lash sorc in termie armor deepstriking to an icon or just walking around joined to a squad? Possibly deepstriking with some terminators?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Culler said:


> A 20-man squad of vanilla CSM with an icon of Khorne is pound for pound one of the best assault squads in the game. Sure it's 370 points for the squad + icon + champion with powerfist
> 
> And they(zerks) cost 136% of what a CSM costs.
> So basically all that buys you is fearless instead of Ld 10, which is nice, but I like the flexibility and increased striking range of the vanilla CSM.


At 370 points, we can make anything dead killy. That's the problem associated with said marines is that in order for them to be any good at all you need to dump quite a large quantity of points into them.

Now, against an ork mob, the twenty marines will win almost every time. They cost nearly twice what the mob does and they wear power armor and get wounded on 5's most of the time.

Problem being is that for only 275 points I can get a fearless squad of twenty templar who will hit harder than you do.(They reroll both attacks, while you get an additional one.) And with the addition of a chap, even the scouts reroll.

Plus that lack of fear is a HUGE problem. Let's say this squad fights an assault squad from another army. Banshees, assault terminators, zerks, etc.

With the banshees, you'd most likely be doomed, so on mathhammer, ten banshees will kill anywhere from 9-11 marines. If you don't kill every single banshee, you're taking a leadership check(with reroll, admittedly.)

Against 370 points of black templar assault terminators(Eight to nine of them with furious charge/counter attack), your squad just isn't even in the running. If you get charged, it's basically over, and even if you do get the charge, they're still swinging a boatload of rerollable lightning claws. Let's say they're equipped half and half(realistically)
Lclaws 12-9-7(dead csm)
Marines 72-36-18 wounds-3(dead terminators)
Thunderhammer 8-6-5(dead csm)
Powerfist 3-2-2-1(dead terminator)

So even if you charge, you're taking a rerollable leadership 2. On the upside against terminators you wont be sweeping advanced unless they're lead by a champ or chap. But than you'll be charged and will lose the rest of them.

Against orks, the twenty man squad does pretty decently, but than when you use it against other armies, it's effectiveness becomes more and more limited as it needs to cover more bases.

Meanwhile the zerks are cheap enough(In comparison) to not really need to be brutally effective EVERY game.(Plus they hit on 3s and strike first/wound on 3s if they charge)



Culler said:


> Also, anyone tried a lash sorc in termie armor deepstriking to an icon or just walking around joined to a squad? Possibly deepstriking with some terminators?


I actually used to try deepstriking two of them for hijinks. Lascannon to face-fu got old fast.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Culler said:


> A 20-man squad of vanilla CSM with an icon of Khorne is pound for pound one of the best assault squads in the game. Sure it's 370 points for the squad + icon + champion with powerfist but they can take a 30-man slugga mob without breaking a sweat and be ready for more.
> Typically an engagement between these two groups would go something like this: CSM shoot 24" with bolters, kill 6.67. CSM move and rapid fire, kill 13.33. 10 Orks actually make it into CC, getting the charge. Negligible shooting from orks, maybe kill 1 CSM. CSM get 54 attacks, killing a little over 11.25, leaving none. Berserkers can do the same for a higher cost but have much worse shooting, so are generally facing 24 orks instead of 10, need the charge on their side to be at maximum efficacy, and cost more to do it.
> Even starting in melee against a slugga mob without shooting them apart first the vanilla CSM do a good job. We'll say no one gets the charge to make things simpler. CSM strike first, kill almost 12. Slugga Boyz strike next, killing almost 3. Nob kills 1.5 with his klaw, let's say 2. Champion does the same with fist. CSM lose 5 total, sluggas lose 14. Sluggas take No Retreat! casualties to the tune of 7.5. End of the round and CSM have lost 5 while orks have lost approx. 21. Next round the CSM finish them off, sustaining maybe another couple casualties. Even the depleted squad is ready to tackle another ork mob, especially if they can shoot. Granted, a slugga mob typically only runs 220 points with a PK nob and bosspole, but even taking on two squads at once with no shooting the CSM still manage to inflict heavy losses and the berserkers would do no better in the same situation. Actually, for their points, they'd do slightly worse, costing 136% what a CSM costs (including the cost of the icon divided amongst the squad) for 133% more hits. The difference that one round of rapid firing or 2 rounds of shooting into an ork mob which the CSM can do from 12" away is about the same as the difference between how many the berserkers kill without a charge and how many the CSM kill without a charge. The difference between CSM shooting one round without rapid firing and then charging and berserkers charging is almost negligible, with a very small advantage to the berserkers. And they cost 136% of what a CSM costs.
> So basically all that buys you is fearless instead of Ld 10, which is nice, but I like the flexibility and increased striking range of the vanilla CSM.
> ...





LordWaffles said:


> At 370 points, we can make anything dead killy. That's the problem associated with said marines is that in order for them to be any good at all you need to dump quite a large quantity of points into them.
> 
> Now, against an ork mob, the twenty marines will win almost every time. They cost nearly twice what the mob does and they wear power armor and get wounded on 5's most of the time.
> 
> ...


I am going to side with LordWaffles on this one, not so much to do with math hammer and what not but I mean I can take 2x5 man squads of noise marines slap a Blastmaster on one in each squad and have them set up shop across the table and just drop pies each turn. Now I wont kill a ton but every time I wound that a pinning test, and that leaves my other 1200 points to deal with the rest of your army.... Or I could roll up a few vindi's and Drop big pies. Basically my point is its easily ignored and if the opponent does see the squad as a threat its large, bulky, and hard to hide so it will be taking massive fire from everywhere essentially making it a easy target.


Definitely not saying its the worst idea but Vanilla marines are not worth almost 400 points to become "Effective".


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> (From another thread):
> 
> Thousand sons-don't take
> *having a 4+ invul save these days isn't that great *
> ...


Careful with that. Also, terminators with Mark of Tzeentch are mediocre at best. Sure, they have a boost to their invulnerable saves, but as you said, who cares when there is 4+ cover given everywhere? Though, I will admit, I kit my shooting terminators out with a Mark of Tzeentch.

The best mark I have found for my terminators is the Mark of Slaanesh. Kit them with twin lightning claws, the mark of Slaanesh, and put them in a land raider. They will not get as many attacks as Khorne terminators, but they will also not take as much damage in return (if you're fighting marines as often as I do). Let me explain...

If you assault an assault squad with a squad of Terminators with the mark of Khorne, then sure, you get more attacks. **But** those attacks are striking at the same time as those assault marines, meaning more damage coming in, more wounds to save, and more armor saves to make. Meanwhile, the Slaanesh terminators all strike first, leaving a marginal amount of hits/wounds/failed armor saves coming back.

Also, terminators excel in a given role. Decide what you want that role to be, and they will shine there. Want horde control? Deepstrike them with combi flamers. Want tank busting? Give them chainfists and combi meltas, either deepstrike or land raider transport. Want them to kill other terminators? Leave them with powerweapons (not powerswords) and give them combi plasma.

Thousand Sons... They do have a niche, they kill marines and other heavy armor foes, and they do it very, very well. When you take Thousand Sons, you aren't taking them for their invulnerable save, though it is nice being able to leave them in the open, or to actually have a save against some of these newer ridiculous AP flamer weapons. You are taking TS for their AP3 bolters and the aspiring champion sorcerer spell flinging platform. :wink: Meanwhile, that leaves our bigger guns free to do other stuff, like crack vehicles, or to concentrate fire on whatever the TS are going to shoot at next, or to soften an entirely different squad, etc...

Really, what it comes down to is personal taste. Play what you like, and what works for you. Me, personally, I think vanilla marines are a huge waste of points when our cult selections do what they do so much better. But, again, that's me, that's my playstyle. 

Goodluck to you!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I actually think there's a case for MoK termies, all with power fists in a land raider. These guys excel at killing nobz bikers, as well as most other stuff. NBs are a bigger problem than most other stuff though. 

You could give them the MoT, but here I think that the attack is much better. A wound vs NBs with a power fist works out as 2 wounds for combat resolution, thanks to instant death. It therefore makes a much bigger difference to who wins. Also, NBs will hit you a bunch of times with stuff that allows you your 2+ anyway.

You could include one or two guys with lightning claws too. They are pretty nasty in their own right and devastating against any one-wound models.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

I definitely agree with Wraith here. I play DG/E. Children Combo. I use 2 Nurgle princes w/ Warp time and wings. E. Children Troops to sit and hold objective, Nurgle Troops to force opponents off theirs. E. Children Termies with lightning claws (I have tried all marks and the +1 initiative is the best because it eliminates the # of attacks coming back at you. We all know how dice can sometimes not go in our favor regardless of how good our save may be. So its better to roll less dice when possible! 

@ Someguy: There is no doubt MoK termies are not bulldozers but you have to think worst case scenario and what happens to a Termi squad that does not charge and instead gets charged? They strike simultaneously with most things meaning they are given the chance to fail saves. The way I try to think of it with out going to much into the math hammer of it all is what would I rather have out of these two scenarios.

(I always think worse case so BEING CHARGED):

Example 1:

30xOrk Boy squad (cc): Now this is if I am not mistaken it is 1 attack base + 2 c weapons (+1) and charging is +1 so three attacks x30 = *90 attacks *

Your Khorne Termies w/ lightning claws have 2 base + 1 for CC weapons. Lets say its a squad of 10 so 3x10 = 30 attacks.

Simo (I just divide by 50%) Boys attack 90 attacks, 45 hit, and *22 wound* (Round down). The Termies have 30 attacks, 15 hit, 7 wound (rounded down) but because of re-rolls have of the remaining 8 that missed wound which is 4 so a total of *11 wounds*

Yes you mow over 11 boyz but them getting 22 wounds is = a lot of saves for you to make.


Example 2:

Now same example with E. Children Termies with lightning claws.

10 termies got charged they strike first because of mark so 30 attacks, 15 hitting, 7+for re-rolled = *11 wounds BAM 11 dead.*

Orks only 19 Orks swinging = 3x19 = 57 attacks (A fraction of what was coming before) 57 attacks, 27 hits (Rounded down), and *13 wounds*

Now I don't know about you but I would much rather have to make 13 saves then 22.

This is how I look at it in my head and it has not proven me wrong yet. I am not saying my rationing is 100% accurate so take it as you will.

Cheers,

Chaosftw


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Chaosftw said:


> Example 1:
> 
> 30xOrk Boy squad (cc): Now this is if I am not mistaken it is 1 attack base + 2 c weapons (+1) and charging is +1 so three attacks x30 = *90 attacks *
> 
> ...


Orks have 2 attacks base & 2 initiative base meaning that 30 boy squad is throwing 120 attacks at you if they charged - but still only at initiative 3 meaning you swing first.

Also, termies have 2 attacks base + 1 for MoK + 1 for 2 CCW = 4 attacks each. meaning instead of 11 dead, you'll probably crump 15 (again, same averages)

So then by your own numbers, there's only 15 boys striking back (of course, there's the hidden fist in there as well & he's still got 4 attacks anyways so he'll crump 2 of your termies...)

But with your numbers, you're still taking 15 saves - and of course 2 of those will probably be invul saves...

If you're slaaneshi rather than khorne you only have 3 attacks and that extra point of initiative is wasted. In that case, you're going to crump 11 & have 19 boys striking back with 4 attacks each... 22 saves with 2 being invuls...


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Again, each mark has it's niche. Khorne terminators molest orks and other low I armies. Slaaneshi terminators face-rape marines. It's there thing. It's what they do. :laugh:

If you build, "all comers," lists, with the amount of ork and marine players out there, I'd say you could safely get away with having a squad of either Khorne or Slaanesh terminators with claws, and either one would fulfill it's designed roll after the course of a few games, for sure.

I just roll with the Slaanesh terminators because I face a shit-ton more marines than I do orks. If you face more orks than marines, go with Khorne, hands down.


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## BlackTemplar93 (Apr 9, 2009)

yeah rc are pretty sweet i like the idea of the guys not worshipping any chaos god only KILL MAIM BURN and stuff like dat....Bute yeah put all yo csm squads in rhinos and take some termies and probs a chaos lord with demon weapon....and a defiler 4 firee support should be balanced and cool lookin army then... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I might convert the 5 spare marines in the battleforce into plague marines for some rock hardness.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Wraithian said:


> Careful with that. Also, terminators with Mark of Tzeentch are mediocre at best. Sure, they have a boost to their invulnerable saves, but as you said, who cares when there is 4+ cover given everywhere? Though, I will admit, I kit my shooting terminators out with a Mark of Tzeentch.


I also went on to say that the mark doesn't mean as much since the unit still dies like marines. Against small arms fire, tzeentch terminators die like terminators. That is to say they only die via one in six wounds.

The only things that really kill them are things that ignore their armor save, and since we play chaos terminators with worse guns, we'll have them in CC where the armor save will be often tested. With Tsons, if they're in combat they already lost.

Plus the mark is ten points cheaper neh? It's not so much a 4+ is useless, it's just situational on different units. Perhaps I don't sound SO much like a hypocrite now haha.



Wraithian said:


> The best mark I have found for my terminators is the Mark of Slaanesh. Kit them with twin lightning claws, the mark of Slaanesh, and put them in a land raider. They will not get as many attacks as Khorne terminators, but they will also not take as much damage in return (if you're fighting marines as often as I do). Let me explain...
> 
> If you assault an assault squad with a squad of Terminators with the mark of Khorne, then sure, you get more attacks. **But** those attacks are striking at the same time as those assault marines, meaning more damage coming in, more wounds to save, and more armor saves to make. Meanwhile, the Slaanesh terminators all strike first, leaving a marginal amount of hits/wounds/failed armor saves coming back.


The argument isn't against marines. Of course the extra initiative will usually pull ahead, it's that we were discussing tournament play to the best of my knowledge.

And marines -don't- win tournaments. The only races that statistically and reliably win tournaments aren't I4 so the extra boost in init isn't worth taking.



Wraithian said:


> Also, terminators excel in a given role. Decide what you want that role to be, and they will shine there. Want horde control? Deepstrike them with combi flamers. Want tank busting? Give them chainfists and combi meltas, either deepstrike or land raider transport. Want them to kill other terminators? Leave them with powerweapons (not powerswords) and give them combi plasma.


Taking a few powerfists is always a good idea, regaurdless of the units main purpose, it adds flexibility for a mere handful of points.



Wraithian said:


> Thousand Sons... They do have a niche, they kill marines and other heavy armor foes, and they do it very, very well. When you take Thousand Sons, you aren't taking them for their invulnerable save, though it is nice being able to leave them in the open, or to actually have a save against some of these newer ridiculous AP flamer weapons. You are taking TS for their AP3 bolters and the aspiring champion sorcerer spell flinging platform. :wink: Meanwhile, that leaves our bigger guns free to do other stuff, like crack vehicles, or to concentrate fire on whatever the TS are going to shoot at next, or to soften an entirely different squad, etc...


The problem with TSons, and it is a big one, is that you pay each and every point for those abilities. I might never fall back on the 4+, or use the tzeentchian psychic power. But I pay additional points for them.

And cutting through a 3+ ain't bad. But do I really need an entire squad of it in coverhammer 40k? A squad I pay a premium for, even without any optional gear?



Wraithian said:


> Really, what it comes down to is personal taste. Play what you like, and what works for you. Me, personally, I think vanilla marines are a huge waste of points when our cult selections do what they do so much better. But, again, that's me, that's my playstyle.
> 
> Goodluck to you!


I completely agree on cult marines hahah, I miss being able to take nillas competitively.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally Tsons are the only cult troop I'd never use. I simply have no need for AP3 guns. AP3 "anti-meq" guns are over-priced in my experience, almost without exception. I'd sooner shoot them with (cheaper, more versatile) noise marines or charge them with (cheaper, amazingly good) zerkers, or use plague marines because they are tough.

Also, of the four options, Tsons are the only one that is highly situational. They like to engage in short range firefights (but not close combat) with MEQ opponents, not in cover, and who are using low-ap weapons to target them. They are utterly useless against something like ork shoota boyz, terminators, vehicles and so on.

Compare that with zerkers, which are probably the best all-round cc unit in the game, noise marines, which provide good fire support and objective defence or plague marines, which are effective both on the attack and in defence. 

It's pretty unusual to find yourself thinking "damn, I wish I didn't have this unit of plague marines with two melta guns and a power fist", which is why they are so popular with tournament players. They are happy to fight MEQs, hordes, vehicles, MCs, or anything else.

On the subject of the termies vs the orks, two points. Firstly, obviously the termies strike first regardless of their mark, so MoS is a waste. Secondly, rather than lightning claws I'd just get more termies, unless constrained by having to fit them in a LR. Thirdly, I actually would get the charge, or at least the first charge, against orks. I'd be coming out of a land raider that they can't really destroy with shooting. Fourthly I was describing a unit that would be primarily designed to smash up big stuff, especially nobz bikers. 

I wouldn't design termies to kill orks ever, since a single khorne berzerker is almost exactly as good on the charge against orks as a lighting claw terminator (1.5 kills for the termie, 1.48 for the zerker), but costs half the price and fitting twice as many in a land raider. The zerker skull champ kills 2.22 orks (or MEQs) whether armed with a power wep or fist, the average is actually exactly the same. Anyway, point for point zerkers kill about twice as many orks compared to terminators.

I can fit 10 zerkers in a LR and kill 15.56 orks, but only 5 termies for 7.5, so the termies will take a lot more attacks back and often end up taking as many casualties or more. That's only with units of 30. Anything less than that and the zerks threaten to wipe them out completely, taking no attacks back, and even with the largest units you are looking at taking so many casualties from No Retreat that the unit is gone.

That's actually one of the things I have found when using zerkers in combination with land raiders and/or lash: they don't die very much. They tend to strike first and do so much damage to their enemies that they barely get hit back.

I do like zerkers. There's something about a unit that does one thing, and does it amazingly well.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Someguy said:


> plague marines, which are effective both on the attack and in defence.
> 
> It's pretty unusual to find yourself thinking "damn, I wish I didn't have this unit of plague marines with two melta guns and a power fist", which is why they are so popular with tournament players. They are happy to fight MEQs, hordes, vehicles, MCs, or anything else.


Finally someone that realizes that Plague Marines are more take all comers then the over priced Tsons! + rep!!! (thats how i run my plague marine list) 2x DP w/ MoN and Wings , 3 squads of 7 Plague Marines w/ Fist, and Melta in Rhinos, and 2x Oblits!)



Someguy said:


> On the subject of the termies vs the orks, two points. Firstly, obviously the termies strike first regardless of their mark, so MoS is a waste. Secondly, rather than lightning claws I'd just get more termies, unless constrained by having to fit them in a LR. Thirdly, I actually would get the charge, or at least the first charge, against orks. I'd be coming out of a land raider that they can't really destroy with shooting. Fourthly I was describing a unit that would be primarily designed to smash up big stuff, especially nobz bikers.


Correct me if I am wrong here but Orks if I am not mistaken are I:3 and on the charge they become I:4 which makes them strike at the same time as termies right? (No ork codex near me / cant recall) If this is wrong then ignore this small blurb 

Chaosftw


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Orks are I2, 3 on the charge. Nobz are base I3.

For terminators I think you can make a case for any of the marks, and people have. In favour of MoS I would point out that you willmeet lots of I4 opponents in tournament play at the highest level: other chaos players mostly. Slaanesh termies can happily charge zerkers, and still get to strike if they are charged.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I think for cc orinted troops i will get mark of khorne and for shooty troops i will get mark of nurgle


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