# Land Raider Terminus Ultra????



## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Hey all! 

Seriously confused here, hopefully someone can clarify!

I would like to use this conversion kit for a "blank" Land Raider I bought: 
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1280042

However, when I researched the rules for the Terminus Ultra variant, I found a PDF file which has a very different weapons load out. It states the Terminus Ultra has an all Lascannon weapons load out. The sprue listed on the GW site clearly has heavy bolters attached on the sprue, which from what I guess looks like each sponson gets a Heavy Bolter and Lascannon and the hull mounted weapon is set up the same.

My question is: Is this a different variant given the wrong name on GW's site, or did I stumble across an outdated rules PDF? Can a Terminus Ultra be loaded out this way? I would really like to make a Land Raider with the load out from the sprue linked in this post, but I don't want to make an illegal Land Raider. If the rules have been updated to allow Terminus Ultra's to take that weapons load out, could anyone direct me to that link? And if this is truly a typo on the GW site, could someone direct me to where I can find rules that allow for that load out? 

I have contacted GW customer support, but no answer yet.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The terminus ultra upgrade sprue has the following.
Enough parts to make one set of predator sponsons with either lascannons or heavy bolters.
Enough parts to make one razorback turret with either lascannons or heavy bolters.
Basically the kit is a set of pred sponsons and a razorback turret as they would come in theit respective kits.

\When combined with a standard land raider you can fit the original TLLC's, replace the TLHB on the front with TLLC's and add a pair of single LC sponsons. You wil have a spare TLHB turret left over and 4 heavy bolters without mounts, and a land raider with tripple twin linked lascannons and a pair of single lascannons. It is a handy little kit because you can put together a pred with it (using the razorback turret) and have plenty of bolters left over for other conversions.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That’s.... really odd. In the apoc book it has it as having all las cannons. It looks like it has 1 TLLC and two single las cannons on the spew so it should be right.... Guess you just got some nice guns. lol


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Ah ha! Confusion clarified:

They label this kit as "Terminus Ultra" upgrade. All it is, as shaantitus stated, is a Predator sponson kit and a Razorback turret kit. They give you the Predator Sponsons for their single lascannons, which you mount in front of the standard TLLC sponsons already on the standard Land Raider. You then build the razorback turret with the TLLC and replace the Twin linked assault cannon mounted on the hull of the standard Land Raider and ta da: Land Raider Terminus Ultra........

Not really worth $17 imo.....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

basically ignore everything else on the sprue and concentrate on just the las weapons, the rest are just bits, spare parts, extra stuff they can charge for.

you only need the lascannons to create the most useless land raider known to man.


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## thesteelclaw (Jul 20, 2008)

I have played against one of these in an apoc game and they can do some damage with five lazer shots three of wich are twin linked. Its a prority target for me.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

thesteelclaw said:


> I have played against one of these in an apoc game and they can do some damage with five lazer shots three of wich are twin linked. Its a prority target for me.


but only 3 can shoot due to LOS, unless you modify the model to gain an advantage over your opponent, or mount all the weapons in 1 sponson, so cheat basically.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> ...only 3 can shoot due to LOS, unless you modify the model....


To put the counter argument, everyone I have played against (tournaments as well as friendlies) agrees vehicles do not block LOS for themselves, so a target on the centre line is in LOS for everything.


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## thesteelclaw (Jul 20, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> To put the counter argument, everyone I have played against (tournaments as well as friendlies) agrees vehicles do not block LOS for themselves, so a target on the centre line is in LOS for everything.


this is how I have always played it as is is more "in keeping with the spirit of the game"


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> To put the counter argument, everyone I have played against (tournaments as well as friendlies) agrees vehicles do not block LOS for themselves, so a target on the centre line is in LOS for everything.


Playing a house rule for that is fair enough, but seeing how there's a picture of the blind spot in the actual rulebook (pg59) for sponsons that is not how it should be played. Even then if you say you're going to ignore that rule you can still only fire all your weapons at targets directly infront of you, 1 Lascannon and 1 TL-Lascannon will always be on the the wrong side if your target is off centre. 

Aramoro


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## thesteelclaw (Jul 20, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> Playing a house rule for that is fair enough, but seeing how there's a picture of the blind spot in the actual rulebook (pg59) for sponsons that is not how it should be played. Even then if you say you're going to ignore that rule you can still only fire all your weapons at targets directly infront of you, 1 Lascannon and 1 TL-Lascannon will always be on the the wrong side if your target is off centre.
> 
> Aramoro


I for one think that a stomper is wider than the raider so all lazcannons can get a lock, I agree anthing smaller than the width of a raider and you are pushing it a bit unless agreed before game.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> ...there's a picture of the blind spot in the actual rulebook (pg59) for sponsons....


Both sponson pictures show that the arc tends toward the middle, so there will be a blind spot right in front to the tank, but it will resolve at some distance. As the sponsons are mounted at different points then the resolving point for each pair is different.

It could even be argued that after the point at which the arcs meet in the middle both sides get to shoot at everything in a cone forward from there.



Aramoro said:


> ...you can still only fire all your weapons at targets directly infront of you, 1 Lascannon and 1 TL-Lascannon will always be on the the wrong side if your target is off centre....


I agree; if no part of the target is on the centre line then one side probably lacks LoS.

My point was that you cannot say that getting LoS from more than 3, _of necessity_, requires you to convert the vehicle with the intent of gaining an unfair advantage.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> To put the counter argument, everyone I have played against (tournaments as well as friendlies) agrees vehicles do not block LOS for themselves, so a target on the centre line is in LOS for everything.


well thats a house rule, you draw LOS from a weapon mounting down the barrel of the weapon, not in a central line, you never draw any LOS down a central line, it all comes down the barrel of the firing weapon, and if that barrel cannot turn to face its target, it cannot fire, simple as, no ifs buts or maybes, if you can't draw a line down that barrel its tough shit and its the spirit of the rules and the game, in reality that land raider would have the same problem if it was real, and thats how you have to take it.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Both sponson pictures show that the arc tends toward the middle, so there will be a blind spot right in front to the tank, but it will resolve at some distance. As the sponsons are mounted at different points then the resolving point for each pair is different.
> 
> It could even be argued that after the point at which the arcs meet in the middle both sides get to shoot at everything in a cone forward from there.
> 
> ...


They arc together in that picture because it's a Predator. The Termius Ultra has an even bigger problem. Is you assemble it as it is supposed to be assembled the Twin-Linked Lascannon sponsons at the back cannot fire forwards at all, the single lascannon sponson in front of it is in the way. It can fire off to the side fine but cannot fire either TL Lascannon straight forward. 

Aramoro


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

It's a crap tank, just use 2 las-preds?


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> ...well thats a house rule, you draw LOS from a weapon mounting down the barrel of the weapon, not in a central line....


I am not arguing that vehicles draw line of sight along the barrel; I have previously stated that there is a blind spot because the weapon cannot rotate past the nose of the vehicle.

I can however draw a line from the barrel of all five sponsons to a point on the centre line beyond the minimum arc of the rear sponsons.



Aramoro said:


> ...assemble it as it is supposed to be assembled the Twin-Linked Lascannon sponsons at the back cannot fire forwards at all, the single lascannon sponson in front of it is in the way. It can fire off to the side fine but cannot fire either TL Lascannon straight forward.


To clarify, my remark about not blocking it's own line of sight was a counter to the suggestion that the front sponson occludes the rear sponson preventing a five weapon alignment to a target directly ahead.



Aramoro said:


> They arc together in that picture because it's a Predator.


The rules indicate that, when deciding if a vehicle weapon has line of sight, you treat it as if it could move the full arc possible even if it could not because it has been glued. As, without any attempt to remodel them, LR sponsons can swivel to face inwards they have an analogous arc.

Unless there is a rule of which I am not aware, LoS for vehicles is that same as LoS for other units with the addition of limitations based on the arc of the mounting. I could therefore argue that it is a house rule that the front sponson blocks the LoS of the rear as it goes against the general rule that a unit does not occlude itself. however, I believe that both are reasonable answers provided everyone agrees before the game whether or not parts of vehicles occlude themselves.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There is a rule for it pg59 of the rulebook. You move the guns around in an arc as far as they can got, not just 180. Thats why the Predator can shoot infront of it, because it's possible to point the gun that way and LOS is draw down the barrel of the Gun (pg58). On the Terminus Ultra the rear sponsons cannot be aimed forwards, even if you attach them so they can move, that being the case it cannot fire forwards with those gun. The BRB is very clear that vehicles do occlude themselves and weapon mounting determine fire arcs. See the Leman Russ Sponsons which cannot fire behind itself as the gun do not point that way (Diagram on pg 59). 

You can house rule it to allow the Terminus Ultra to fire forwards with it's rear sponsons, but that is a house rule. 

Aramoro


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> On the Terminus Ultra the rear sponsons cannot be aimed forwards, even if you attach them so they can move....


I do not own one myself, so I will accept the standard configuration (within the "Do whatever you all agree is cool" meaning of the term for Apocalypse) does not actually fit. The only one I have ever studied they fitted, so obviously it can be done with a functionally undetectable change to the assembly.



Aramoro said:


> There is a rule for it pg59 of the rulebook. You move the guns around in an arc as far as they can got, not just 180....
> 
> The BRB is very clear that vehicles do occlude themselves.... and weapon mounting determine fire arcs. See the Leman Russ Sponsons which cannot fire behind itself as the gun do not point that way....


Page 59 refers to determining a sponson's LoS by "...shape and position....". Having reread the rules, I cannot see any statement beyond that indicating that vehicles occlude themselves.

_Shape:_ the diagrams then show the fire arcs for guns mounted in a right angle box and on a 180+ pivot. There is no statement either way on whether the diagrams are specific examples or the two possible options for sponson mounts. I can therefore validly interpret the rules as showing a closed set of possibilities.

_Position:_ the diagrams show that the arc terminates at the corner of the vehicles; the distance between the front of the vehicle and the pivot will determine how far ahead of the vehicle the blind area ends.

Unless I have missed an official clarification, there is nothing specifically stated in RAW to say that the arc of a weapon that is not in a right-angle mount is confined by anything other than the corners of the vehicle.

Given that Terminus are not awesome with the ability to fire all weapons on a centre line target, they are not on my buy list anyway.


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