# First Heretic - Big Spoilers



## Words_of_Truth

Don't read this if you don't want to spoil your idea of the reasons behind the two lost Primarchs and their legions





OMG! 

The first real info has finally been mentioned in relation to the two "lost" legions and it's made it even more intriguing tbh. I don't believe that the Emperor himself had them properly purged and had the other Primarchs swear to never speak of them again. I wonder what they could of done to merit such action, especially since Lorgar himself was on the verge of receiving the same treatment is seems. I'm only half way through the book roughly but I just had to mention this, it really seems as if the truth will finally come out eventually, we keep getting hints and they are steadily getting more substantial.


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## Count_the_Seven

I'm working on fluff for my own interpretation of Legio II and it would be similar to Lorgar's path...


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## Khorne's Fist

Considering that the Emperor consulted the other Primarchs on whether or not to purge Lorgar and his boys for simply worshipping him, maybe their crimes were not so bad as first suspected. They may have remained loyal to the Emperor till the end, but did not toe the party line. This really shows how ruthless the Emperor truly was. He was willing to wipe out possibly his most loyal and devoted son simply because he saw him as a divine being. 

At least we now know that they were purged, and it puts an end to the theories of them falling off the edge of the galaxy, etc. At this rate I think we'll find out what happened to them by the end of the series.


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## Words_of_Truth

By purged I assume it means they were killed right? not just banished?


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## Khorne's Fist

Words_of_Truth said:


> By purged I assume it means they were killed right? not just banished?


Seems that way with regard to the primarchs anyway. It's also hinted that the Smurfs benefitted from the fall of these legions by taking in surviving marines.


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## jams

intriguing. i always thought the 2 lost primarchs were due to GW not being arsed to think of any fluff for them lol


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## ckcrawford

jams said:


> intriguing. i always thought the 2 lost primarchs were due to GW not being arsed to think of any fluff for them lol


I'm glad this is not the case, or at least right now doesn't appear to be. If GW intends to still keep the lost legions "lost":biggrin: then I imagine the most effective way they could incorporate this into the 40k world would to keep some of the Heresy Mysterious. The only question is what? There are certain parts of the Heresy I hope that get revealed I just hope the information that remains a secret isn't anything I will miss.


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## X FiftY 1ne

Ughh, I can't wait any longer to get this book. Have it pre-ordered and it should arrive in 4-5 days. This and Firedrake. I can already tell The First Heretic is going to be one the best HH books so far.


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## Azkaellon

X FiftY 1ne said:


> Ughh, I can't wait any longer to get this book. Have it pre-ordered and it should arrive in 4-5 days. This and Firedrake. I can already tell The First Heretic is going to be one the best HH books so far.


You shouldn't worry......i got it before the release date and i must say.........Damn...Lorgar is one whiny bitch......And The ultrasmurfs are made up of 3 legions two of which the emperor offed the primarchs of? WTF??????

Also this book only has a few good points...

-Ultramarines are ass holes
-the Emperor is an ass
-Lorgar is a pansy
-Erebus and Kor made lorgar there bitch.

that is all.

:drinks:


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## ckcrawford

Witch King of Angmar said:


> You shouldn't worry......i got it before the release date and i must say.........Damn...Lorgar is one whiny bitch......And The ultrasmurfs are made up of 3 legions two of which the emperor offed the primarchs of? WTF??????
> 
> Also this book only has a few good points...
> 
> -Ultramarines are ass holes
> -the Emperor is an ass
> -Lorgar is a pansy
> -Erebus and Kor made lorgar there bitch.
> 
> that is all.
> 
> :drinks:


No... So did five primarchs. Lets see... we got 
1. Guilliman having Logar kneel before the emperor and himself
2. Ferrus Manus told him to bugger off
3. Fulgrim showing off how much better he is then him
4. Corax kicking his ass
5. And pretty much Konrad Curze save his ass and told him he's a bitch

I kind of feel bad for Logar. His legion bearing down witness to him being a bitch to other primarchs.


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## Azkaellon

ckcrawford said:


> No... So did five primarchs. Lets see... we got
> 1. Guilliman having Logar kneel before the emperor and himself
> 2. Ferrus Manus told him to bugger off
> 3. Fulgrim showing off how much better he is then him
> 4. Corax kicking his ass
> 5. And pretty much Konrad Curze save his ass and told him he's a bitch
> 
> I kind of feel bad for Logar. His legion bearing down witness to him being a bitch to other primarchs.


True he got told off by Erebus to.....which was pretty damn funny, Hey the primarch is the chaplains bitch!

BUT it was epic seeing Guilliman get his ass knocked down with a sucker punch.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Witch King of Angmar said:


> And The ultrasmurfs are made up of 3 legions two of which the emperor offed the primarchs of? WTF??????


Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?


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## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?


isn't it common knowledge that Space Marines lack the capacity to "joke" effectively. 

CP

and besides, we don't think "likely" here, it's a fan forum, we postulate and ruminate on the most absurd theories imaginable, because we're bored and lack the writing prowess you've been gifted with to keep us occupied. so there. lol

besides, it's your fault for posing this minor one paragraph section to sew the seeds of contemplation in our minds. who's name is on the cover of said tome?


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## ckcrawford

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?


Ahhh shit, INCEPTION... through a book. 

I was wondering if anyone thought some of the primarchs saw Argel Tal when they landed. Most notably Perturabo in the mountains. And I was a bit confused to why the daemon wanted them to stay away from the primarch tubes. Was it simply because the Emperor would sense them or could they really effect/ intervene in the past.


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## Words_of_Truth

Only one word is needed to sum up this book. Awesome.

It's by far the best so far in the series and it's the first to make me think of the earlier ones that were devoted to Horus in ages.


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## Azkaellon

Words_of_Truth said:


> Only one word is needed to sum up this book. Awesome.
> 
> It's by far the best so far in the series and it's the first to make me think of the earlier ones that were devoted to Horus in ages.


I would argue that Galaxy in Flame's is the best in the series......

Anyhow the Whole ultrasmurf Legion stuff would make sense, Guilliman is a total jerkwad self loving prick, He makes the rest of the primarchs seem like saints. (ya I WOULD Prefer even RUSS over him) not to mention guilliman is a usurper as we all know.....at least Fulgrim will put him in his place soon.......(a nice frozen tube....hehehehe) not to mention IF they had touched the primarch tubes Big E would of known and bitch slapped the whole legion most likely giving the smurfs a 4th legion worth of troops....


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## Words_of_Truth

I think I like it more mainly because of how much info it provides on the origins of the primarchs and the "lost" legions it pretty much identifies how they were "lost" but doesn't give the reasons as to why.


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## Khorne's Fist

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?


I hadn't actually got to that part yet when I read this post, but when I did, I noticed that the mood of the novel was distinctly dark, and none of the characters seemed to be in a particularly jovial mood. It seemed to be taken as fact.

Along with the fact that marines in general, and WBs in particular, seem to be a rather joyless and humourless lot, I suspect you may be trying to throw us off track...:wink:


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## Words_of_Truth

I finished the novel today and it rocked.

Lorgar, despite being a Primarch, was a total whiny ass. I especially took great Joy in Corax ripping him a new one. Anyone else think Corax and Night Haunter should have a further engagement in the series? They seemed to either respect each other's prowess highly or they had bad blood.

I loved all the hints about the lost legions, what I got out of it was they did something terribly wrong and the other Primarchs had to purge them. However it seems only the Primarchs were killed I think since there are rumours all the old marines joined them. One Primarch in particularly caused a lot of problems for his brothers as well.

The whole part where it's actually a word bearer that causes the Primarchs to disappear into the warp was a little weird, I thought they were only ever visions and weren't actually real, but who knows could of just been a trick.

Definitely one of the best novels, the best ones are always the ones that uncover something substantial about the heresy or the Primarchs and this one definitely does


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## ckcrawford

I actually liked Logar. But I see where you are comming from. I just thought Kor's relationship with Logar should have been elaborated a little more so that Logar trusting him would make more sense. Pretty much Kor was like, your my bitch Logar. And the bitch does what its told or it gets the hose again. No pun intended ADB.

Logar definitely took a different stance on his adoptive father than for example Lion El Johnson did with Luther, Perturabo and Dammekos, or even Mortarion and his Warlord father.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Lorgar, despite being a Primarch, was a total whiny ass. I especially took great Joy in Corax ripping him a new one.


I disagree. Just because Corax outclassed Lorgar in combat doesn't make him a 'whiny ass'. He was a scholar and an intellect, not a warrior. He was trying to enlighten humanity through knowledge and faith rather than bloodshed, which the Emperor seemed intent on.

I found that particular exploration of the ideology behind Lorgar's betrayal of his father enticing.


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree. Just because Corax outclassed Lorgar in combat doesn't make him a 'whiny ass'. He was a scholar and an intellect, not a warrior. He was trying to enlighten humanity through knowledge and faith rather than bloodshed, which the Emperor seemed intent on.
> 
> I found that particular exploration of the ideology behind Lorgar's betrayal of his father enticing.


Wasn't to do with Corax outclassing him, it was just in general he was very sensitive and complained an awful lot. What annoyed me the most was how he fell, it was just so pathetic -

"oh no my dad doesn't want me to worship him, well if my dad don't want me someone else will. Oh look theres these primordial beings that don't have an ounce of goodness in their souls, but at least they accept me, ok screw everyone else lets ruin the galaxy."

I totally agree with just about every other Primarchs opinion of him, even Night Haunter who before hand to me was the biggest outcast, has turned out to be liked more. Lorgar only had Magnus and even he thought he was stupid.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Wasn't to do with Corax outclassing him, it was just in general he was very sensitive and complained an awful lot. What annoyed me the most was how he fell, it was just so pathetic
> 
> "oh no my dad doesn't want me to worship him, well if my dad don't want me someone else will. Oh look theres these primordial beings that don't have an ounce of goodness in their souls, but at least they accept me, ok screw everyone else lets ruin the galaxy."


I didn't really get that from the novel at all, but if you did then we'll leave it at that.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I totally agree with just about every other Primarchs opinion of him, even Night Haunter who before hand to me was the biggest outcast, has turned out to be liked more. Lorgar only had Magnus and even he thought he was stupid.


What makes you say that?


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What makes you say that?


There's several points I think where he thinks of the rest of his brothers and how they react to him. Ferrus doesn't like him, Night Haunter basically laughs at him after the incident with Corax, Magnus tells him about his flaws and basically tells him to not be an idiot in looking for someone else to worship. Guilliman is obvious not his best friend.

Just about everyone has distanced themselves from him and it took the weird intervention of Russ of all people to stop the Emperor from purging him.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree. Just because Corax outclassed Lorgar in combat doesn't make him a 'whiny ass'. He was a scholar and an intellect, not a warrior. He was trying to enlighten humanity through knowledge and faith rather than bloodshed, which the Emperor seemed intent on.
> 
> I found that particular exploration of the ideology behind Lorgar's betrayal of his father enticing.


Thanks, dude. Glad you liked it.

For some people though, in 40K novels - practically any display of emotion or being anything less than a total badass indicates some flaw of being "emo" or "whiny". That's fine, they're obviously looking for X in their 40K novels, rather than Y.

I mean, I've read that book a squillion times now. If someone really makes the claim of him being overemotional and whiny, I'd venture they missed the significance of exactly what's been done to him, and why, let alone the nuances of actually having a conscience and (gasp!) daring to feel affection for his warrior sons.

I mean, really:



Words_of_Truth said:


> "oh no my dad doesn't want me to worship him, well if my dad don't want me someone else will. Oh look theres these primordial beings that don't have an ounce of goodness in their souls, but at least they accept me, ok screw everyone else lets ruin the galaxy."


See, the problem with this is that it's nothing like what happened. 

What actually happened is that Lorgar spent almost a decade on Colchis waging a war of religious genocide, slaughtering millions of people while a planet burned, in the name of a god that his powers told him was true. After that, he spent 100 years in perfect faith and trust conquering worlds and raising literal paradises - never being lectured once. Then, out of the blue, the Emperor shames him in front of his brothers, casts his Legion into the dust, annihilates his greatest work, kills countless people who had trusted Lorgar to make their lives better, and tells Lorgar that not only has his entire life been wasted, but that he's the only failure in the family. His powers are broken. Just his. No one else's. And by the way, not only has his entire life been wasted in a lie, but so have the lives of all his sons. All one hundred thousand of them. And he's to blame for that, too. Wasting the lives of one hundred thousand people who should have been following the Emperor.

He spends a month is contemplative (and religiously fanatical) isolation, punishing himself for his failures, according to, well, practically any medieval religion. No surprise there. During that time, his mentor and foster father start to turn him from his father. And it's easy to do, not because Lorgar is weak-willed, but because the Emperor is actually wrong.

Now, Lorgar is not a fool. He senses the Emperor is lying to humanity - Humanity is following a tyrant that cares for nothing but war, and is lying to the entire species. So he goes in search for the truth. And the truth, when he finds it, is absolutely horrible. 

But it's the _truth_. The Emperor _is_ lying and those lies threaten the entire human race. Only through Chaos will the species be strong enough to fight off the infinite enemies in the galaxy. The only way humanity will survive is to embrace this terrible truth, and Lorgar sacrifices his sons, and himself, to take the first steps. He believes it, and given any knowledge of the 40K universe and its unrelenting grimness, it may very well be true. But the point is, it's not difficult to believe, especially when the Emperor is shown as a liar and a hypocrite.

And then on Isstvan, despite the ordained destiny he's supposed to follow, he fights his brother - knowing he can't possibly win against a true warrior - to buy his sons time and weaken the other primarch enough to be killed. He's ready to give his life for those that have been so loyal to him. He doesn't complain at all - he faces it with great courage.

Now, you can make the case that Lorgar was flawed, because all the primarchs were flawed. His flaws just look worse in a setting based around several hundred perfect badasses. But I really don't get any criticism about his fall being pathetic, or that he was whiny. Thankfully, it's not a criticism that has popped up much, and is usually limited to people who clearly expected something else from the novel.

Lorgar actually saw the truth of the universe, and it made him "fall". If a concept like that didn't work for you, I sort of wonder what you thought of Fulgrim and Horus falling from being near Chaos-infested swords.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Along with the fact that marines in general, and WBs in particular, seem to be a rather joyless and humourless lot, I suspect you may be trying to throw us off track...


Naw, I'm genuinely surprised people are taking that as fact. It seems possible that it happened, but I don't really think it's likely. When one of them says _"What? You're all thinking it..."_ it doesn't exactly feel like stone cold fact to me. They're just guessing and spouting rumour.


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## gothik

just finished first heretic and omg straight to the number spot for me, i love lorgar and it was great to actually read about a Primarch who would not take the easy option of illumination but would sway the populace with his words, his passion and his charisma. 
i was also surprised to find that my thinking on Kor Phaeron was wrong, i had assumed that he was an astartes but to find out that he was an enhanced human becuase he had been too old for the gene seed...wow....what can i say a great book. fantastically written and very visual, mister ADB i saluite you..


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## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Thanks, dude. Glad you liked it.
> 
> For some people though, in 40K novels - practically any display of emotion or being anything less than a total badass indicates some flaw of being "emo" or "whiny". That's fine, they're obviously looking for X in their 40K novels, rather than Y.
> 
> I mean, I've read that book a squillion times now. If someone really makes the claim of him being overemotional and whiny, I'd venture they missed the significance of exactly what's been done to him, and why, let alone the nuances of actually having a conscience and (gasp!) daring to feel affection for his warrior sons.
> 
> I mean, really:
> 
> 
> 
> See, the problem with this is that it's nothing like what happened.
> 
> What actually happened is that Lorgar spent almost a decade on Colchis waging a war of religious genocide, slaughtering millions of people while a planet burned, in the name of a god that his powers told him was true. After that, he spent 100 years in perfect faith and trust conquering worlds and raising literal paradises - never being lectured once. Then, out of the blue, the Emperor shames him in front of his brothers, casts his Legion into the dust, annihilates his greatest work, kills countless people who had trusted Lorgar to make their lives better, and tells Lorgar that not only has his entire life been wasted, but that he's the only failure in the family. His powers are broken. Just his. No one else's. And by the way, not only has his entire life been wasted in a lie, but so have the lives of all his sons. All one hundred thousand of them. And he's to blame for that, too. Wasting the lives of one hundred thousand people who should have been following the Emperor.
> 
> He spends a month is contemplative (and religiously fanatical) isolation, punishing himself for his failures, according to, well, practically any medieval religion. No surprise there. During that time, his mentor and foster father start to turn him from his father. And it's easy to do, not because Lorgar is weak-willed, but because the Emperor is actually wrong.
> 
> Now, Lorgar is not a fool. He senses the Emperor is lying to humanity - Humanity is following a tyrant that cares for nothing but war, and is lying to the entire species. So he goes in search for the truth. And the truth, when he finds it, is absolutely horrible.
> 
> But it's the _truth_. The Emperor _is_ lying and those lies threaten the entire human race. Only through Chaos will the species be strong enough to fight off the infinite enemies in the galaxy. The only way humanity will survive is to embrace this terrible truth, and Lorgar sacrifices his sons, and himself, to take the first steps. He believes it, and given any knowledge of the 40K universe and its unrelenting grimness, it may very well be true. But the point is, it's not difficult to believe, especially when the Emperor is shown as a liar and a hypocrite.
> 
> And then on Isstvan, despite the ordained destiny he's supposed to follow, he fights his brother - knowing he can't possibly win against a true warrior - to buy his sons time and weaken the other primarch enough to be killed. He's ready to give his life for those that have been so loyal to him. He doesn't complain at all - he faces it with great courage.
> 
> Now, you can make the case that Lorgar was flawed, because all the primarchs were flawed. His flaws just look worse in a setting based around several hundred perfect badasses. But I really don't get any criticism about his fall being pathetic, or that he was whiny. Thankfully, it's not a criticism that has popped up much, and is usually limited to people who clearly expected something else from the novel.
> 
> Lorgar actually saw the truth of the universe, and it made him "fall". If a concept like that didn't work for you, I sort of wonder what you thought of Fulgrim and Horus falling from being near Chaos-infested swords.
> 
> 
> 
> Naw, I'm genuinely surprised people are taking that as fact. It seems possible that it happened, but I don't really think it's likely. When one of them says _"What? You're all thinking it..."_ it doesn't exactly feel like stone cold fact to me. They're just guessing and spouting rumour.



I agree for the most part, I understand his fall but I still feel he was overly sensitive to most things but his general personae was pretty naive.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Not suprisingly Aaron, you justified Lorgar's behaviour better than anyone else here could. 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Naw, I'm genuinely surprised people are taking that as fact. It seems possible that it happened, but I don't really think it's likely. When one of them says _"What? You're all thinking it..."_ it doesn't exactly feel like stone cold fact to me. They're just guessing and spouting rumour.


I must admit that initially I took it as more of a rumour, but I've put that down to uncontained excitement more than anything, which I think is an explanation which will eventually justify several people's viewpoints. It's the same when every new Heresy novel comes out which has some form of 'major' revelation within it's pages.

Now that I've had a couple of weeks to 'settle down' after reading _The First Heretic_, and take in everything properly after devouring the book in just over a day. You obviously are right in that it's merely speculation. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> was pretty naive.


naive how exactly? I really want you to justify your thoughts on Lorgar here.


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> naive how exactly? I really want you to justify your thoughts on Lorgar here.


That just because Emperor possibly had help in his creation of the Primarchs by the Chaos gods, it justifies him turning on the Emperor and throwing in his lot with the chaos gods who are obviously evil, he's not only naive he's gullible to think everything that was told to him was 100% true. He's naive to think he's found the whole truth, to think there's no scheme behind what's being shown to him.


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## seb2351

Words_of_Truth said:


> That just because Emperor possibly had help in his creation of the Primarchs by the Chaos gods, it justifies him turning on the Emperor and throwing in his lot with the chaos gods who are obviously evil, he's not only naive he's gullible to think everything that was told to him was 100% true. He's naive to think he's found the whole truth, to think there's no scheme behind what's being shown to him.


But isnt Logar supposed to be the Primarch that has faith has his underlying quality? I don't think he is naive or gullible to believe what he thinks is divine gospel. Its what faith does to people. 
Do you think people who read the bible are gullible or naive because they 100% believe what they have read and heard as a result of their faith. We have a unique perspective to view a human quality that is normal very subjective from the outside. Logars faith is what defines him and he can't be held up to the mentioned flaws as a result.


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## Words_of_Truth

seb2351 said:


> But isnt Logar supposed to be the Primarch that has faith has his underlying quality? I don't think he is naive or gullible to believe what he thinks is divine gospel. Its what faith does to people.
> Do you think people who read the bible are gullible or naive because they 100% believe what they have read and heard as a result of their faith. We have a unique perspective to view a human quality that is normal very subjective from the outside. Logars faith is what defines him and he can't be held up to the mentioned flaws as a result.


The underlying quality you're referring to is just that, naive and gullible, I don't really want to get into real religions tbh. I'm just going to put it down to his gene seed, any normal worshipper as shown in other books would accept what the Emperor said but still realise he's saying it for a purpose, continue to be loyal and get on with it. Lorgar on the other hand goes one step further, acknowledges the Emperor is still almost god like despite what he tells him but that's not enough and for falls into the oldest trick in the book and starts to believe in false gods.


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## gothik

not only was Lorgar called to task and humiliated before his brother, told that he was a waste of space, had the regent of terra chastise him, his sons forced to kneel before the emperor and the ultramarines but he was told that the very faith that was the core of his being, why he had led Colchis through a bloody jihad was wrong. its no wonder really that he tuirned to other gods.
as a man of faith he could have gone one of two ways, he could have been that shaken and humilated that he became like his brothers, which i am glad he didn't as for me no matter what religion u r the word bearers embody a vision of faith in a nightmare future so to have them suddenly abandon that faith would not have fitted the ideal of the leigon.
or find something that would justify not only the old faith of Colchis but the imperium in general adn thats what he did. Lorgar is, in my opinoion like the old Inquisitors of our history but he is also a learned man, a scholar and a thinker.
he prosecutes his belief with all the faith of a cruisader and inquisitor (Thomas De Torquemanda always springs to mind when i think Lorgar or Kor Phaeron) but, unlike his other brothers he leaves paradise worlds and worlds that were faithful to the emperor, when the heresy came it was easy to sway these worlds he had conquered to the faith he now truely believed in.
i also liked the way Angel Tal and Xapion infact the whole of seventh company took in the girl Cyrene and made her i suppose like a sister to them, thats the impression i got. they treated her with the utmost respect and fought to protect her. 
anyway i don't believe Lorgar is whiny i believe that he had his faith shattered, he broke but then he realised that there are more truths out there and the more he delved the more involved he got.
he found his faith again but with the emperor being a bloodthirsty klingon my way or die sort of thing, maybe he did find the true gods and perhapes if the truth were known about what really happened that day and not painted as a benevolent father attempting to draw in his wayward son, but as a tyrannical father who stooped so low as to humilate his gentle thinker of a son, his philosipher child then maybe, just maybe the whole thinking would be reverted adn there would be people who could see why the Heresy happened and not just lay the blame at the door of Horus adn co leaving the emperor and indeed Gulliman blameless...cos they were not.
if Roboute was so good and broadminded then why didn't he turn round and say father we should speak to Lorgar Aurilean in private not humilate him in front of his sons or my sons....na my esitamtion of the man was low to begin with now i know that he is nothing but a yes man and like his father you will do as i say.....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> That just because Emperor possibly had help in his creation of the Primarchs by the Chaos gods, it justifies him turning on the Emperor and throwing in his lot with the chaos gods who are obviously evil, he's not only naive he's gullible to think everything that was told to him was 100% true. He's naive to think he's found the whole truth, to think there's no scheme behind what's being shown to him.


Lorgar discovered beyond doubt that the Emperor had lied not just to his sons, but to the entire Imperium. The Great Crusade and in fact the Imperium as a whole was based on hypocrisy and a lie. 

Lorgar had shattered his own homeworld based on this lie, he had waged war and genocide for around a century in the Great Crusade based on this lie, and then he was forced to kneel in the ashes of his greatest achievement because of this lie. I don't think your quite grasping what Lorgar had done in the name of faith in the Emperor, and to suddenly have all of his achievements shattered in the ashes of Monarchia - how that effected him.

He came to realise that because all of the faiths based in human cultures spread across the galaxy shared similar beliefs, that there must be an underlying universal truth. Thus he discovered it, the oh so ugly truth - gods did exist. 

He wasn't gullible or naive in this regard, he had witnessed first hand the existence of the gods, he had witnessed their power. He knew that they existed, despite what the Emperor preached. He realised that humanity needed to embrace chaos in order to survive - I don't see how you can claim Lorgar is naive.



Words_of_Truth said:


> acknowledges the Emperor is still almost god like despite what he tells him but that's not enough and for falls into the oldest trick in the book and starts to believe in false gods.


That's exactly the point though, the Emperor never explicitly denied being a god. He allowed the religious festivals to honour him as a god on Colchis, he allowed Lorgar and the Word Bearers to take to the Great Crusade preaching that he was a god and spreading such doctrine to conquered worlds. Only after an entire century did he finally reprimand Lorgar... 

And the chaos gods are false gods how?


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar discovered beyond doubt that the Emperor had lied not just to his sons, but to the entire Imperium. The Great Crusade and in fact the Imperium as a whole was based on hypocrisy and a lie.
> 
> Lorgar had shattered his own homeworld based on this lie, he had waged war and genocide for around a century in the Great Crusade based on this lie, and then he was forced to kneel in the ashes of his greatest achievement because of this lie. I don't think your quite grasping what Lorgar had done in the name of faith in the Emperor, and to suddenly have all of his achievements shattered in the ashes of Monarchia - how that effected him.
> 
> He came to realise that because all of the faiths based in human cultures spread across the galaxy shared similar beliefs, that there must be an underlying universal truth. Thus he discovered it, the oh so ugly truth - gods did exist.
> 
> He wasn't gullible or naive in this regard, he had witnessed first hand the existence of the gods, he had witnessed their power. He knew that they existed, despite what the Emperor preached. He realised that humanity needed to embrace chaos in order to survive - I don't see how you can claim Lorgar is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly the point though, the Emperor never explicitly denied being a god. He allowed the religious festivals to honour him as a god on Colchis, he allowed Lorgar and the Word Bearers to take to the Great Crusade preaching that he was a god and spreading such doctrine to conquered worlds. Only after an entire century did he finally reprimand Lorgar...
> 
> And the chaos gods are false gods how?


Its not without doubt as the "vision" he had could of been a total lie. The gods are false because all they are, are the gathered emotions and dreams of mortals given thought due to the the amount of it there is, that's what slaanesh is, they gave birth to slaanesh due to the amount of perverse stuff they did etc.


----------



## gothik

Words_of_Truth said:


> Its not without doubt as the "vision" he had could of been a total lie. The gods are false because all they are, are the gathered emotions and dreams of mortals given thought due to the the amount of it there is, that's what slaanesh is, they gave birth to slaanesh due to the amount of perverse stuff they did etc.


in slannesh's case i would agree with you on that he/she was born of thier desires and hedonistic ways at the time but if you think about it Khorne...blood itself, well wars been around since man crawled from the trees if it was not about teritory or mates it was poltical ideals and in the case of th emperor unification.
Tzeentch...magic has also been around since man first sw the sun move across the sky or rain fall from heaven and wasn't the emperor supposidly created from magick
and Nurgle same thing disease has been arouind for a long time, and people thought disease was a punishment from the gods.
just now they have been given names, but they have always been there.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

gothik said:


> in slannesh's case i would agree with you on that he/she was born of thier desires and hedonistic ways at the time but if you think about it Khorne...blood itself, well wars been around since man crawled from the trees if it was not about teritory or mates it was poltical ideals and in the case of th emperor unification.
> Tzeentch...magic has also been around since man first sw the sun move across the sky or rain fall from heaven and wasn't the emperor supposidly created from magick
> and Nurgle same thing disease has been arouind for a long time, and people thought disease was a punishment from the gods.
> just now they have been given names, but they have always been there.


Exactly, they've been around as long as anything else has existed, they are not gods, merely the reflection of every living things presence in the warp.


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## gothik

Words_of_Truth said:


> Exactly, they've been around as long as anything else has existed, they are not gods, merely the reflection of every living things presence in the warp.


assuing you are correct and i am not ridiculing anything you say as they are valid points and i respect your opinions as i respect everyones...thats some pretty powerful refelctions.
the power to charm a Primarch into turning half his family to turn aginsat the other half, to grant great powers and the likes upon them...that is some pretty powerful karma for mere reflections in my humble opinions:grin:


----------



## Words_of_Truth

gothik said:


> assuing you are correct and i am not ridiculing anything you say as they are valid points and i respect your opinions as i respect everyones...thats some pretty powerful refelctions.
> the power to charm a Primarch into turning half his family to turn aginsat the other half, to grant great powers and the likes upon them...that is some pretty powerful karma for mere reflections in my humble opinions:grin:


You have to think of the scale of the warp though and the amount of death and disorder that has been sown over a period of time, just one life in the 40k universe could be equal to the earth being destroyed thousand times over, and it's not just the living that power the warp, the dead (afaik) go to it when they die apparently and every pysker is like a battery that continues to charge it. So much death, so much depravity, so much disease it all goes towards powering the warp. The crusade in fact made chaos stronger through all the death and destruction it brought to the galaxy, enough to overwhelm a Primarch at least.


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## gothik

kinda makes some peoples points then that the emperor saw conquest by blood and bone rather then peace and philosophy....hmm then perhapes the emperor is a choas god or the very least a child of the chaos...his own actions and orders to his sons and the leigons made the warp as powerful as it is and continues to do so....the laughter of thirsting gods.


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## Words_of_Truth

gothik said:


> kinda makes some peoples points then that the emperor saw conquest by blood and bone rather then peace and philosophy....hmm then perhapes the emperor is a choas god or the very least a child of the chaos...his own actions and orders to his sons and the leigons made the warp as powerful as it is and continues to do so....the laughter of thirsting gods.


There is a theory that the Emperor feeds off the devotion of his loyal subjects and the crusades were what kicked off his path to god hood. He forsaw the coming civil war and even gave it a kick in the right direction by making sure the right Primarchs were involved. 

Whether his plan was to truly ascend at the end of it or to end up on the throne I don't know but he did make the throne well before it happened so who knows. Anyway right now the Emperor is trapped between worlds, he can still influence things in the physical realm and also on the empyrean plains. Continued devotion to him will only make him stronger and it's thought that he'll eventually become a full blown god, like the way slaanesh became one. 
There's already a warp storm considered to be made by the Emperor (Storm of the Emperor's Wrath)

This is of course merely a theory which does have a lot of evidence supporting it.


----------



## gothik

so thats what that was thanks for that WOT so, bear with me here, would this make teh emperor as bad as his counterparts in the warp? he kickstarts the heresy acting on Lorgars complete and utter faith, Curze's madness, Horus's feelings of abandonment, Perturabo's annoyance at being the lacky to Dorn, Mortarions mistrust of psykers, Fulgrims Pride against them and his other sons? wonder in that case he was worried about Magnus truely discovering his motives, it would be easy then to say to the wolf...get him he is disobeying my orders. wonder then if he knows what Alpharius's motives are...or is the alpha leigon the one thing he did not play for...

what a bastard and what a way to ensure his eventual path to godhood, a whole universe of humans worshipping him and giving thier souls for him, gotta love that kind of trecherary.


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## Words_of_Truth

gothik said:


> so thats what that was thanks for that WOT so, bear with me here, would this make teh emperor as bad as his counterparts in the warp? he kickstarts the heresy acting on Lorgars complete and utter faith, Curze's madness, Horus's feelings of abandonment, Perturabo's annoyance at being the lacky to Dorn, Mortarions mistrust of psykers, Fulgrims Pride against them and his other sons? wonder in that case he was worried about Magnus truely discovering his motives, it would be easy then to say to the wolf...get him he is disobeying my orders. wonder then if he knows what Alpharius's motives are...or is the alpha leigon the one thing he did not play for...
> 
> what a bastard and what a way to ensure his eventual path to godhood, a whole universe of humans worshipping him and giving thier souls for him, gotta love that kind of trecherary.


Maybe, but the reason he's doing it is so he can defeat the very essence of chaos it'self some how or at least be so powerful anything chaos attempts, he can just counter it.


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## gothik

who knows wether he wanted it or not the truth is he is a god now and lorgar was right all along


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## Words_of_Truth

Not really because I don't think you should focus on the fact the Emperor did it to become a god, you should focus on the fact that he did it so he could fight chaos and keep humanity free, it seems however since he's took half way between that he can't quite achieve that. The only reason they are keeping him alive on the throne is because of the Astronomican, maybe if they took him off they wouldn't need it any more because the warp wouldn't be a problem.


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## ckcrawford

> What actually happened is that Lorgar spent almost a decade on Colchis waging a war of religious genocide, slaughtering millions of people while a planet burned, in the name of a god that his powers told him was true. After that, he spent 100 years in perfect faith and trust conquering worlds and raising literal paradises - never being lectured once. Then, out of the blue, the Emperor shames him in front of his brothers, casts his Legion into the dust, annihilates his greatest work, kills countless people who had trusted Lorgar to make their lives better, and tells Lorgar that not only has his entire life been wasted, but that he's the only failure in the family. His powers are broken. Just his. No one else's. And by the way, not only has his entire life been wasted in a lie, but so have the lives of all his sons. All one hundred thousand of them. And he's to blame for that, too. Wasting the lives of one hundred thousand people who should have been following the Emperor.


-ADB

That is interesting, and I wonder if their will be elaboration on the Emperor's random wrath. One thing that I think many people don't understand, is the disgrace and shame the Emperor does by literally telling in front of everyone including his legion what a failure he is. This is pretty messed up. Its one thing to take your general into a private room and talk about changing things around a little or discussing your disapointment. 

But to praise his failure infront of 1 of the 20 strongest armies of the Imperium is FUBAR. Being in the military I would never see a General scream or tell a captain or an Staff NCO what a failure they are. Thats just not going to happen in front of the lesser grade men. And Logar isn't just a general or a powerful warlord. He's pretty much looked like a demi-god. 

There could have been many consequences for the Emperor's behavior. One and foremost the reason why the upper grade don't show discontent like that openly in front of the lesser rank is the result of unease within the Legion of Logars. Logar's legion could have grown to disrespect their own primarch. I think you see that with Kor and Erebus, but they use their primarch to get what they wanted in this situation instead of overthrow him. Second, how did the Emperor think the rest of the Imperium would treat Logar and his legion after this? This incident creates such disrespect that this legion could not be taken serious ever again. And I think how Konrad treats Logar after saving his life and though they are allies is a good testiment to Logar and his Legion's fate after what happened between him and the Emperor.

Now this random event gets me thinking into why the Emperor did something like this. My only thought, is that the Emperor was waiting for this Primarch and Legion into doing something wrong. He even highlighted their failure by putting Custodes within his ranks. Furthermore evidence is the way the Emperor was supposidely going around and asking the primarchs of what they thought should be Logar's fate. The Emperor must have known or thought something serious over Logar and his legion than simply Logar praising him and being slow during the crusade. If indeed this was the case, the time does seem random and a bit late.


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## gothik

totally agree with you ckc and being ex navy myself the thought of someone being balled out like that in front of eveyone would be bad karma....end of the day the emperor knew exactly what he was doing.

and WOT thanks been an interesting debate


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## Words_of_Truth

ckcrawford said:


> -ADB
> 
> That is interesting, and I wonder if their will be elaboration on the Emperor's random wrath. One thing that I think many people don't understand, is the disgrace and shame the Emperor does by literally telling in front of everyone including his legion what a failure he is. This is pretty messed up. Its one thing to take your general into a private room and talk about changing things around a little or discussing your disapointment.
> 
> But to praise his failure infront of 1 of the 20 strongest armies of the Imperium is FUBAR. Being in the military I would never see a General scream or tell a captain or an Staff NCO what a failure they are. Thats just not going to happen in front of the lesser grade men. And Logar isn't just a general or a powerful warlord. He's pretty much looked like a demi-god.
> 
> There could have been many consequences for the Emperor's behavior. One and foremost the reason why the upper grade don't show discontent like that openly in front of the lesser rank is the result of unease within the Legion of Logars. Logar's legion could have grown to disrespect their own primarch. I think you see that with Kor and Erebus, but they use their primarch to get what they wanted in this situation instead of overthrow him. Second, how did the Emperor think the rest of the Imperium would treat Logar and his legion after this? This incident creates such disrespect that this legion could not be taken serious ever again. And I think how Konrad treats Logar after saving his life and though they are allies is a good testiment to Logar and his Legion's fate after what happened between him and the Emperor.
> 
> Now this random event gets me thinking into why the Emperor did something like this. My only thought, is that the Emperor was waiting for this Primarch and Legion into doing something wrong. He even highlighted their failure by putting Custodes within his ranks. Furthermore evidence is the way the Emperor was supposidely going around and asking the primarchs of what they thought should be Logar's fate. The Emperor must have known or thought something serious over Logar and his legion than simply Logar praising him and being slow during the crusade. If indeed this was the case, the time does seem random and a bit late.


As I mentioned, I think it was a deliberate ploy by the Emperor to push Lorgar over the edge and to start the beginning of the civil war.


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## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> As I mentioned, I think it was a deliberate ploy by the Emperor to push Lorgar over the edge and to start the beginning of the civil war.


Agreed to an extent. But I must confess I think I am over imaginative about the 40k world. I actually thought that somehow the Emperor knew chaos would eventually come out, and kind of like in Legion he tried to make a physical representation of chaos to fight against instead of it growing within his Imperium. It could have been what happened to the two other legions... The sacrifice of two other legions to keep Chaos at bay... But I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

I did like how Logar wasn't the scum that Kor and Erebus were though. In many ways Logar is demonstrated to be the light of the Imperium that was never shown. If Logar hadn't been stopped, I think the Imperium would have truly been the Imperium that everyone thinks about when they first start 40k.


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## Commissar Ploss

ckcrawford said:


> Agreed to an extent. But I must confess I think I am over imaginative about the 40k world. I actually thought that somehow the Emperor knew chaos would eventually come out, and kind of like in Legion he tried to make a physical representation of chaos to fight against instead of it growing within his Imperium. It could have been what happened to the two other legions... The sacrifice of two other legions to keep Chaos at bay... But I think I'm getting ahead of myself.
> 
> I did like how Logar wasn't the scum that Kor and Erebus were though. In many ways Logar is demonstrated to be the light of the Imperium that was never shown. If Logar hadn't been stopped, I think the Imperium would have truly been the Imperium that everyone thinks about when they first start 40k.


I'm in agreement with your first paragraph. You'll remember that the emperor conceived the Primarchs with the help of the chaos gods. Using arcane warp rituals. An enormous gellar field, etc. A last ditch effort to keep his "sons" to himself. Biting the hand that feeds, as it were.

as for your second paragraph, i agree as well. The imperium would have been "Monarchia"-esque. as it was the epitome of emperor-worshiping perfection.

CP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> they are not gods, merely the reflection of every living things presence in the warp.


And who is to say that doesn't make them gods?



Words_of_Truth said:


> but he did make the throne well before it happened so who knows.


That was obviously because the throne was intended to be a conduit to webway though.



Words_of_Truth said:


> There's already a warp storm considered to be made by the Emperor (Storm of the Emperor's Wrath)


So does Magnus; The Storm of Magnus - near Prospero. And the Chaos Gods can create warp storms and rifts on a whim...



Words_of_Truth said:


> The only reason they are keeping him alive on the throne is because of the Astronomican, maybe if they took him off they wouldn't need it any more because the warp wouldn't be a problem.


But of course he personally instructed the conversion of the Golden Throne into a life-support system to sustain his own essence, their not holding him against his will - they are doing exactly what they were instructed to do.



ckcrawford said:


> That is interesting, and I wonder if their will be elaboration on the Emperor's random wrath.


It certainly is a very strange predicament, why did the Emperor allow Lorgar and the Word Bearers to declare him a god and worship him throughout the welcome festivals on Colchis and indeed for an entire century in the Great Crusade, even though it conflicted with the Imperial truth - and then to suddenly bring down his wrath on them at Monarchia.

It's a similar situation to what occured with several other Primarchs, Angron being a prominent example.

Their questions with no obvious logical justification. 



ckcrawford said:


> One thing that I think many people don't understand, is the disgrace and shame the Emperor does by literally telling in front of everyone including his legion what a failure he is.


It's certainly a theme that was explored enough throughout _The First Heretic_, but one that some people seem to not take into account. 



ckcrawford said:


> Logar's legion could have grown to disrespect their own primarch. I think you see that with Kor and Erebus, but they use their primarch to get what they wanted in this situation instead of overthrow him.


I don't think Kor Phaeron or Erebus disrespected Lorgar in the slightest, quite the opposite I found. They adored him, loved him, and wanted the best for him, only reasonable considering combined they were both father and mentor to him. They weren't trying to manipulate him to bring about what they selfishly desired, they were helping him to make the hard choices he had to make - especially after the realisation that they had all lived their lives in the name of a lie and had all their achievements shattered before their eyes.


----------



## Chaosveteran

Commissar Ploss said:


> I'm in agreement with your first paragraph. You'll remember that the emperor conceived the Primarchs with the help of the chaos gods. Using arcane warp rituals. An enormous gellar field, etc. A last ditch effort to keep his "sons" to himself. Biting the hand that feeds, as it were.
> 
> as for your second paragraph, i agree as well. The imperium would have been "Monarchia"-esque. as it was the epitome of emperor-worshiping perfection.
> 
> CP


Where can I find more information about this part of 40k history - creation of primarchs??


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## Words_of_Truth

Chaosveteran said:


> Where can I find more information about this part of 40k history - creation of primarchs??


First Heretic and I think False Gods from the Horus heresy series both have a a good look at the creation of Primarchs and how they were scattered throughout the galaxy, however whether what is seen is true is another thing entirely but what is seen does kind of correspond with what was said briefly in Space Marine Codex's'.


----------



## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> First Heretic and I think False Gods from the Horus heresy series both have a a good look at the creation of Primarchs and how they were scattered throughout the galaxy, however whether what is seen is true is another thing entirely but what is seen does kind of correspond with what was said briefly in Space Marine Codex's'.


Ninja!

Words_of_Truth has truth here. The creation of the Primarchs is vague at most. Mostly scattered thoughout the codexes and space marine stories. Probably intentional. I'm not sure but I think _Horus Rising_ has a good depiction of how the primarchs came to be as a brief overview for the beginning of the Heresy.


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## Words_of_Truth

I like that the Word Bearers used to be called the Imperial Heralds.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I finished the book this morning after a longer bank holiday lie-in than intended (the significant other was _NOT _impressed:ireful2 and I really enjoyed it. This is the book that should have been written much earlier in the series, instead of some of the crap that has preceded it. 

What struck me most was the fact that noone really had any respect for Lorgar. His brothers on both sided of the Heresy have little time and less respect for him, thinking of him as a weakling. He really seems to be the runt of the litter. Even Kor Phearon and Erebus are sick of his limp wristed "feyness" on Istvaan. While he does admit himself that he is no general, and never wanted to be a soldier, surely he can't be that much weaker, physically or mentally, than his brothers.


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## Words_of_Truth

Khorne's Fist said:


> I finished the book this morning after a longer bank holiday lie-in than intended (the significant other was _NOT _impressed:ireful2 and I really enjoyed it. This is the book that should have been written much earlier in the series, instead of some of the crap that has preceded it.
> 
> What struck me most was the fact that noone really had any respect for Lorgar. His brothers on both sided of the Heresy have little time and less respect for him, thinking of him as a weakling. He really seems to be the runt of the litter. Even Kor Phearon and Erebus are sick of his limp wristed "feyness" on Istvaan. While he does admit himself that he is no general, and never wanted to be a soldier, surely he can't be that much weaker, physically or mentally, than his brothers.


Exactly, everyone saw him as a push over, Magnus blatantly said it to his face and he still didn't get it. At least we now know it was a genetic problem though, but the Emperor didn't really help with the way he treated him.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Lorgar is the runt. easily the most impressionable. although i hesitate to say that noone has respect for him. example, Argel Tal holds him in the highest regard. Father, teacher, mentor.

CP


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## Words_of_Truth

Commissar Ploss said:


> Lorgar is the runt. easily the most impressionable. although i hesitate to say that noone has respect for him. example, Argel Tal holds him in the highest regard. Father, teacher, mentor.
> 
> CP


He had to though the genetic flaw in the Word Bearers gene impelled him to.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Words_of_Truth said:


> He had to though the genetic flaw in the Word Bearers gene impelled him to.


i'm not sure i agree with that sentiment. There were numerous compelling chances where Argel Tal could have lost faith in his father, like so many of his bretheren did. There is a reason he was chosen to lead the Gal Vorbek. (and not only because he was possessed). He did not waver. I think that each Word Bearer has the capacity to lose faith in something. it's not a given just because of their genes, that's too easy a concession. Each thinks for himself, and can make that decision. 

I don't think it's so much that he _had_ to but that he chose to.

CP


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## Words_of_Truth

Commissar Ploss said:


> i'm not sure i agree with that sentiment. There were numerous compelling chances where Argel Tal could have lost faith in his father, like so many of his bretheren did. There is a reason he was chosen to lead the Gal Vorbek. (and not only because he was possessed). He did not waver. I think that each Word Bearer has the capacity to lose faith in something. it's not a given just because of their genes, that's too easy a concession. Each thinks for himself, and can make that decision.
> 
> I don't think it's so much that he _had_ to but that he chose to.
> 
> CP


He questioned whether he was following what the Primarch said out of loyalty or whether it was down to the gene, the very fact he has the loyalty gene void any decision he makes as no matter what it'll make him want to trust his Primarch.

He was put in the same position as all the other main characters in the other books like Garro etc yet he was compelled to trust what his Primarch said, if it was anyone else he would of went rogue and attempted to do what the others did.

That's what I got from it, despite being a good guy it was inevitable that he'd be damned just because of his genes.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Commissar Ploss said:


> i'm not sure i agree with that sentiment. There were numerous compelling chances where Argel Tal could have lost faith in his father, like so many of his bretheren did. There is a reason he was chosen to lead the Gal Vorbek. (and not only because he was possessed). He did not waver. I think that each Word Bearer has the capacity to lose faith in something. it's not a given just because of their genes, that's too easy a concession. Each thinks for himself, and can make that decision.
> 
> I don't think it's so much that he _had_ to but that he chose to.
> 
> CP


Bingo.

There's even a section where he categorically asks if his mindset is manipulated by the gene-seed, and the answer is that no, they still get to choose their fates, there's just an instinctive trust there, too.

Canonically, the Word Bearer gene-seed makes its Astartes have a "marked tendency toward dogged, unquestioning belief". So yeah, the weaker-willed ones may barely question their primarch or the Legion's choices. 

But Argel Tal is made of strong stuff, and he trusts (and falls) by choice.


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## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Bingo.
> 
> There's even a section where he categorically asks if his mindset is manipulated by the gene-seed, and the answer is that no, they still get to choose their fates, there's just an instinctive trust there, too.
> 
> Canonically, the Word Bearer gene-seed makes its Astartes have a "marked tendency toward dogged, unquestioning belief". So yeah, the weaker-willed ones may barely question their primarch or the Legion's choices.
> 
> But Argel Tal is made of strong stuff, and he trusts (and falls) by choice.


Did you not read my post? The fact he is influenced by the genetic flaw in his gene-seed means any decisions he makes are void as he's already "biased" towards supporting his Primarchs.

His dogged unquestioning belief means no matter what he'll follow his Primarch anyway.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Bingo.
> 
> There's even a section where he categorically asks if his mindset is manipulated by the gene-seed, and the answer is that no, they still get to choose their fates, there's just an instinctive trust there, too.
> 
> Canonically, the Word Bearer gene-seed makes its Astartes have a "marked tendency toward dogged, unquestioning belief". So yeah, the weaker-willed ones may barely question their primarch or the Legion's choices.
> 
> But Argel Tal is made of strong stuff, and he trusts (and falls) by choice.


i like it when we agree on stuff. lol


Words_of_Truth said:


> Did you not read my post? The fact he is influenced by the genetic flaw in his gene-seed means any decisions he makes are void as he's already "biased" towards supporting his Primarchs.
> 
> His dogged unquestioning belief means no matter what he'll follow his Primarch anyway.


As Aaron and i have stated, the gene-seed was not a factor in Argel Tal's decision to follow his primarch into damnation. He weighed the odds and options fully before deciding that it was still the right thing to do. 

This is once again a reason why he was chosen as one of the Gal Vorbek. The Gal Vorbek were made up of those who showed loyalty by choice, not loyalty by default. The idea is, that he _isn't_ influenced by the genetic "flaw" in his gene-seed. You can't claim the decisions of an individual are void simply by the tendencies of the masses. The weaker willed amongst the Word Bearers definitely show a "marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief," however this doesn't hold true for Argel Tal.

CP


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Just to further back up what CP and Aaron have said:




Page 298:
'Our loyalty is bred into our blood?'
*No. You are sentient creatures with free will. This is no more than a minor divergence in an otherwise flawless code...*



The Word Bearers are not mindless automatons who serve Lorgar without free thought, they have autonomy - which is also further reinforced by the fact that a section of the Legion had to be purged prior to the Heresy (as noted in _Dark Creed_ and mentioned in passing in _The First Heretic_) because they wouldn't follow Lorgar into heresy and were too tained by the 'lies of the False Emperor.'


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## Words_of_Truth

*sigh* There's no way you can know whether his decision was not influenced by the gene seed flaw, there's no way because even if he says "oh I know it's not because of that" you can't believe it because even that is influenced by the gene flaw.

They have free thought but when it comes to their beliefs they are seriously compromised by their gene flaw.

The ones who were purged were most like the remnant Terrans amongst their ranks. Remember the gene seed doesn't make them loyal only to Lorgar it only makes them seriously loyal to any of their beliefs and those Word Bearer's who were purged most likely believed a lot more in the Emperor than their Primarch.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> *sigh* There's no way you can know whether his decision was not influenced by the gene seed flaw,


Sure I can. I wrote the novel.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Commissar Ploss said:


> The weaker willed amongst the Word Bearers definitely show a "marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief," however this doesn't hold true for Argel Tal.


Sort of. I mean, he shows that same dogged, unquestioning belief at certain points. But not when it really, really counts. The Word Bearers aren't slaves to their gene-seed; in fact, compared to other legions, their flaw is relatively insignificant. But it does affect them, and it affects Argel Tal, too.

But there's a difference between being affected by something, and being enslaved to it. He's still his own person, as all of the Word Bearers are. But since it's Argel Tal's story, we see instances of him resisting/ignoring the gene-seed imperative more than anyone else.

He questions if the flaw is affecting his decisions, and he questions the decisions themselves, as well as the need to even make them. That shows pretty clearly how he's resisting the "marked tendency for _unquestioning_ belief" at those moments.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Sure I can. I wrote the novel.


Well I didn't know that, and you letting me know that his decision is not because of his gene has taken something away from the book now and made it less interesting. 

It's practically made the whole question as to whether his decisions and that of his legion in general are due to this minor gene obsolete, especially the major one which is would Lorgar have fallen to Chaos if it wasnt for this minor ,supposedly insignificant, flaw.

I enjoyed the idea that such a tiny flaw which in most cases would of been called an added improvement, instead resulted in such a massive event that altered the course of history and changed the whole galaxy. Instead I find it's just that, insignificant, doesn't really have any bearing on the outcome and that the Word Bearers _were_ in fact just another case of being mislead and simply accepting chaos like idiots. In fact it might as well of been left out of the book if it doesn't have any reason to be there other than to take up space.

It added to the history as it's something new, instead I find they are no better than the Emperor's Children who sort perfection and ended up pursuing it into damnation, the Word Bearer's sort truth but not because they were fallible due to their genes, but because they were idiots and thought they knew better, just as Magnus thought he knew better and ended up doing the same. The falls of the loyalist legions weren't very diverse in the first place and I thought this one had a different excuse but now I find it doesn't. 

I can't wait to find out whether any of the others fell for unique reasons or just because they thought they knew best, from the looks of it I don't see Mortarion, Pertruabo and Night Haunter being any different. 

I'm disappointed now.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> I enjoyed the idea that such a tiny flaw which in most cases would of been called an added improvement, instead resulted in such a massive event that altered the course of history and changed the whole galaxy.


The minor geneseed failure of the Word Bearers was never portrayed in the novel as the reason for why the Word Bearers turned to Chaos, or thus indirectly why the heresy occured...



Words_of_Truth said:


> Instead I find it's just that, insignificant, doesn't really have any bearing on the outcome and that the Word Bearers _were_ in fact just another case of being mislead and simply accepting chaos like idiots.


They were misled by the Emperor, and guided to the universal truth of the universe by chaos. They didn't 'accept chaos like idiots', they were misled, lied to and shamed by the Emperor - which led them to seek the truth. They found the truth, it may not have been what they hoped for - but it was the truth nonetheless. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> In fact it might as well of been left out of the book if it doesn't have any reason to be there other than to take up space.


It still contributes to the plot, it has Argel Tal questioning whether or not his geneseed is the reason for many of the decisions he makes, or whether it is out of genuine freewill, faith or duty. In fact I would say it contributes fairly significantly to the plot surrounding the decision-making process of the Word Bearers and whether or not they should accept chaos, it really opens up the ideology behind their decision to accept chaos - but ultimately Argel Tal doesn't accept chaos because of his geneseed (despite his doubts), he accepts it because it's the truth.




Page 328:
It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.




Words_of_Truth said:


> the Word Bearer's sought truth but not because they were fallible due to their genes, but because they were idiots and thought they knew better


They sought the truth because they had lived their entire lives in the name of a lie. They had desecrated their own homeworld, destroyed countless human cultures and waged war on countless battlefields in the certainty that they were right in their faith in the God-Emperor. When that was shattered in the ashes of Monarchia they sought to find the truth and give themselves a purpose again. I fail to see how this makes them idiots who thought they knew better...



Words_of_Truth said:


> The falls of the loyalist legions weren't very diverse in the first place and I thought this one had a different excuse but now I find it doesn't.


It is different. Seeking the truth and finding it is different from the general underhand ways in which the other Legions were corrupted.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I can't wait to find out whether any of the others fell for unique reasons or just because they thought they knew best, from the looks of it I don't see Mortarion, Pertruabo and Night Haunter being any different.


In short Night Haunter turned because he was betrayed by the Emperor, who tried to assassinate him even before the heresy. Essentially because of the injustices of the Imperium.

Perturabo turned because his virtues were never recognised, he was never rewarded for the blood spilt and shed in forging the Imperium, and it never provided unity when it was most needed. He was unappriciated, his Legion slowly shattered whilst his brothers were heaped with praise.

Mortarion's reasons for turning is less justified but generally believed to be because of the influence of Calas Typhon, his wish for a society where the strong ruled the weak (not the other way around which was becoming the case with the Imperium), his desire for justice, his bond with Horus, feeling of abandonment - Et cetera.

All generally unique reasons.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I'm disappointed now.


Why not try reading _The First Heretic_ again? You may notice things you didn't the first time. No patronism is intended, but re-reading novels usually tends to enlighten us further.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> It added to the history as it's something new, instead I find they are no better than the Emperor's Children who sort perfection and ended up pursuing it into damnation, the Word Bearer's sort truth but not because they were fallible due to their genes, but because they were idiots and thought they knew better...


But... that's wrong, and misses the entire point of the fall. They weren't "idiots". They didn't just "think they knew better". They're the one Legion that found out the _Emperor lied to the entire of the human race_, and they faced the terrible truth behind the whole universe.

Everyone gets different jazz from these novels: some like them for new lore; some don't care about new lore and just want the old lore explained better; others want a decent mythic story from a time of legend; others want X, Y or Z, or a mix of the above.

Don't get me wrong, everyone's cool to take whatever they want from a book, but your second reaction is actually less correct than the first. The first was a valid hypothesis that rocks on toast, which could conceivably be possible (the only issue is that I guarantee you most people wouldn't be interested in characters that never have any choice over their actions). But the second misses the point - the trauma and tragedy of the fall - and devalues all of the pathos. It actually also ignores any of the intelligence and consideration in the narrative, too.

*EDIT:* Actually, Child of the Emperor said it way better than me.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> *EDIT:* Actually, Child of the Emperor said it way better than me.


:laugh: I concur. lol

CP


----------



## Thyr

Other legions have gene flaws / genetic dispositions as well. Every Space Wolf carries the possibility of turning into a wulfen within him. Every Blood Angel carries the possibility of succumbing to the Red Thirst or Black Rage within him. And yet the strong willed ones are able to overcome and triumph over their genetic dispositions as has been shown before. I have no reason to believe that it would be different for a Word Bearer.


----------



## Thyr

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The minor geneseed failure of the Word Bearers was never portrayed in the novel as the reason for why the Word Bearers turned to Chaos, or thus indirectly why the heresy occured...
> 
> 
> 
> They were misled by the Emperor, and guided to the universal truth of the universe by chaos. They didn't 'accept chaos like idiots', they were misled, lied to and shamed by the Emperor - which led them to seek the truth. They found the truth, it may not have been what they hoped for - but it was the truth nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 
> It still contributes to the plot, it has Argel Tal questioning whether or not his geneseed is the reason for many of the decisions he makes, or whether it is out of genuine freewill, faith or duty. In fact I would say it contributes fairly significantly to the plot surrounding the decision-making process of the Word Bearers and whether or not they should accept chaos, it really opens up the ideology behind their decision to accept chaos - but ultimately Argel Tal doesn't accept chaos because of his geneseed (despite his doubts), he accepts it because it's the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Page 328:
> It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They sought the truth because they had lived their entire lives in the name of a lie. They had desecrated their own homeworld, destroyed countless human cultures and waged war on countless battlefields in the certainty that they were right in their faith in the God-Emperor. When that was shattered in the ashes of Monarchia they sought to find the truth and give themselves a purpose again. I fail to see how this makes them idiots who thought they knew better...
> 
> 
> 
> It is different. Seeking the truth and finding it is different from the general underhand ways in which the other Legions were corrupted.
> 
> 
> 
> In short Night Haunter turned because he was betrayed by the Emperor, who tried to assassinate him even before the heresy. Essentially because of the injustices of the Imperium.
> 
> Perturabo turned because his virtues were never recognised, he was never rewarded for the blood spilt and shed in forging the Imperium, and it never provided unity when it was most needed. He was unappriciated, his Legion slowly shattered whilst his brothers were heaped with praise.
> 
> Mortarion's reasons for turning is less justified but generally believed to be because of the influence of Calas Typhon, his wish for a society where the strong ruled the weak (not the other way around which was becoming the case with the Imperium), his desire for justice, his bond with Horus, feeling of abandonment - Et cetera.
> 
> All generally unique reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not try reading _The First Heretic_ again? You may notice things you didn't the first time. No patronism is intended, but re-reading novels usually tends to enlighten us further.


I should have kept reading on instead of replying right away. Heh. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Very well put.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I don't need to read The First Heretic again, you've just told me that everything that had a hint of mystery to it instead is the absolute truth of the matter and there's no room for maneuver.

You've just told me that the "visions" the daemon showed Argel Tal were in fact true, that Chaos would undoubtedly triumph eventually, that everything mysterious about the book should just be taken on face value to be correct.

Why would I want to re-read something that has been ruined for me and in fact ruined a very important part of the Heresy for me as well.

I have no idea why the gene seed flaw was even mentioned if it didn't contribute to the actual story, why put something in that causes doubt and then dismiss it if it hasn't nothing to do with forwarding the story.

"In fact I would say it contributes fairly significantly to the plot surrounding the decision-making process of the Word Bearers and whether or not they should accept chaos"

We've just been shown that no, it has nothing to do with the decision making process. They fell to chaos because they were lied to and that is all, no here or there, no mystery that could be interpreted differently. 

Lorgar spent ages worshipping someone then felt betrayed and instead sort a higher power. Before I could of said well it's not his fault he's so emotional, his faith which has been reinforced on a genetic level has thus been shattered and now that same genetic flaw is now forcing him to continue along a path of faith to find a new god to worship. 

Instead what I find is "Oh no I've been betrayed after soooo long, I must find some proof of real gods and worship them because I choose to, not because I have to but because I choose to"

No grey areas, all black and white and to me that ruins the whole point of the Horus Heresy. 

Why doesn't every author come on here and point out the flaws in everyone's perception of the book they wrote, I'm sure it'll be most helpful.

Edit - Also don't insult me by trying to lecture me on the ways of how the other Primarchs fell. I know very well the general reasons behind each, but as of yet they've not released a full novel on each of them. Night Haunter has The Dark King which is the closer they've got fully explain his fall.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Don't get me wrong, I get that you really liked the idea, and as I said, it's conceivable and I dig the premise. But now you're starting to go miles off-track and essentially invent stuff, missing the point wildly.



Words_of_Truth said:


> ...you've just told me that everything that had a hint of mystery to it instead is the absolute truth of the matter and there's no room for maneuver.


No, not at all. But the mysteries in the novel have absolutely nothing to do with whether a character's genetics make him trust Lorgar or not.




Words_of_Truth said:


> You've just told me that the "visions" the daemon showed Argel Tal were in fact true, that Chaos would undoubtedly triumph eventually, that everything mysterious about the book should just be taken on face value to be correct.


Nope. But the mystery of that has absolutely nothing to do with whether his genetics make him trust Lorgar or not.




Words_of_Truth said:


> I have no idea why the gene seed flaw was even mentioned if it didn't contribute to the actual story...


Because it does. It affects their decisions, it just doesn't make every life decision for them. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> why put something in that causes doubt and then dismiss it if it hasn't nothing to do with forwarding the story.


Because it does. It affects their decisions, it just doesn't make every life decision for them.



Words_of_Truth said:


> We've just been shown that no, it has nothing to do with the decision making process. They fell to chaos because they were lied to and that is all, no here or there, no mystery that could be interpreted differently.


No, we haven't. It specifically affects a lot of their decisions, as stated in the novel and stated here. It's a gene-seed flaw, after all. But it doesn't decide everything for them. It doesn't control their entire ability to ever make choices.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Lorgar spent ages worshipping someone then felt betrayed and instead sort a higher power. Before I could of said well it's not his fault he's so emotional, his faith which has been reinforced on a genetic level has thus been shattered and now that same genetic flaw is now forcing him to continue along a path of faith to find a new god to worship.


Lorgar wouldn't have flawed gene-seed, though. He's not an Astartes. Now you're taking your preference for bad genetics and applying it to the Emperor's work, rather than flawed gene-seed, and that wasn't in the novel anyway.

Child of the Emperor's clear, concise explanation was beautifully-put, and explains exactly why this makes the mystery behind the Word Bearers' fall all the more powerful.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Instead what I find is "Oh no I've been betrayed after soooo long, I must find some proof of real gods and worship them because I choose to, not because I have to but because I choose to"
> 
> No grey areas, all black and white and to me that ruins the whole point of the Horus Heresy.


That's the big problem with your whole argument, though. "I have no choice, I must do it" is the literal embodiment of "no grey areas". You say you want mystery and doubt, then argue for the one situation that has _nothing_ to do with mystery and doubt.

If a character acts because the character has no choice at all, it's black and white, the end. That's not mysterious. And that's exactly what you like. 

Dude, don't complain about there being no shades of grey when the nuances are what you actually don't like.


----------



## World Eater XII

Some days you the bug, somedays you the windshield


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Sorry, but it lessens it for me.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That's the big problem with your whole argument, though. "I have no choice, I must do it" is the literal embodiment of "no grey areas". You say you want mystery and doubt, then argue for the one situation that has _nothing_ to do with mystery and doubt.
> 
> If a character acts because the character has no choice at all, it's black and white, the end. That's not mysterious. And that's exactly what you like.
> 
> Dude, don't complain about there being no shades of grey when the nuances are what you actually don't like.


What I meant was I like the little grey area between the two, I like the question it suggests "is it because of the flaw or is it because he wants to" you've just squashed that tho and gave the answers. 

Basically you've took the intrigue out of the story and just made it a lot more basic. It's your book you can do what u like with it but for me the revelations that he made decisions based on face value facts cheapens it for me.


----------



## World Eater XII

But that in its self is pretty major, the fact that he choose to! and not that it was the fault of the geneseed.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Edit - Also don't insult me by trying to lecture me on the ways of how the other Primarchs fell. I know very well the general reasons behind each, but as of yet they've not released a full novel on each of them. Night Haunter has The Dark King which is the closer they've got fully explain his fall.


Obviously no insult was intended. As for Night Haunter, _Soul Hunter_ and _Lord of the Night_ go into fairly deep detail about his reasoning for joining Horus.



Words_of_Truth said:


> What I meant was I like the little grey area between the two, I like the question it suggests "is it because of the flaw or is it because he wants to" you've just squashed that tho and gave the answers.


We may know that Argel Tal accepted chaos by his own free will, despite his many doubts that his geneseed failure was effecting him. But then again, Argel Tal was one of the Gal Vorbak - one who witnessed chaos and the truth first hand within the Eye of Terror, thus he not only first hand realised the lies of the Emperor, but also the universal truth of the universe.

But I doubt that was universally true of the whole Legion, some Word Bearers may have followed Lorgar simply because of their geneseed defect... 

And when I said that the introduction of this geneseed flaw into the plot of _The First Heretic_ made a significant contribution, what I meant is that it opened up a whole new avenue as to why the Word Bearers accepted chaos. Before _The First Heretic_ were we to assume that they merely followed Lorgar because they were told to? Now we have some form of basis for such unrelenting and fanatical loyalty. 

I also found it added to the reasoning behind Argel Tal's decision. When he learnt of his Legion's geneseed defect he began to doubt whether or not his own decisions were effected by said flaw. Was he so loyal and willing to follow Lorgar merely because of his geneseed? Or was the decision made by his own freewill after the terrible revelations regarding the lies of the Emperor and the truth of chaos? Well ultimately it's because of his own freewill, he even explains it within the novel when talking to Cyrene:




Page 328:
'But what if were being lied to?'

It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.

But Argel Tal said none of this. He was weary of such explanation.

'I remember your words after Monarchia died in the Emperor's fire. You told me it was the day you truly began to believe that gods were real, once you had seen such power unleashed. I felt the same when I saw the power at work in this storm. Can you understand that, Cyrene?'

'I understand.'



That is why he accepted chaos, ultimately not because of his geneseed defect - but because he had discovered the truth.

But that doesn't take away his own doubt, nor the thought-provoking elements which the revelation of their geneseed defect resulted in.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Basically you've took the intrigue out of the story and just made it a lot more basic.


Maybe in terms of Argel Tal, but not regarding the Legion as a whole. As I said above, there may have been individual Word Bearers that followed Lorgar and accepted chaos not because they genuinely wanted to, but because their geneseed flaw disrupted their decision making process. That uncertainty is still there, just not with Argel Tal.



Words_of_Truth said:


> It's your book you can do what u like with it but for me the revelations that he made decisions based on face value facts cheapens it for me.


If we can't convince you then that's okay, ultimately everyone takes something different out of a novel. For me, it was a fantastic novel that currently ranks #2 in the Heresy series (closely behind _Legion_).


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Basically you've took the intrigue out of the story and just made it a lot more basic.


See, to my mind, and it seems to the minds of pretty much every review I've seen, free will and the chance of making a decision, coupled with the gene-seed flaw, just adds nuance and and depth to the narrative.

As I said (twice now), there's still doubt, and the gene-seed _was_ involved in the Legion's fall. Argel Tal made decisions based on faith, trust and hope - knowing that his decisions were affected in some way. But not some "YOU MUST DO THIS" basic genetic drive. It's a factor, not the only and entire reason.

I'm cool with you disliking it, that's your right. But don't take the complicated answer and make it sound simple. That's kinda disingenuous.


----------



## Fancyxeno21

Sorry if I'm inturrupting the debate going on right now, which if I might add, his very enlightening about the plot of the novel making me quite excited to start rereading it tomorro, but I had my own question about the book.

First just wanted to say to ADB that this book is absolutely amazing. I am one of those guys who absolutely hates chaos, hates the traitor legions, hates everyone who has accepted chaos. I really liked how this book was able to get me angry at the traitor legions and the characters themselves for turning and killing loyal sons of the emperor. Being about to stir such emotion inside the reader is what makes this book so great besides the continuation of the lore and stuff like that. 

Now my question, so far in the horus heresy novels whenever the pods where the primarch were created is depicted, it shows how the emperor made a bargin with the chaos gods etc etc. Is this actually a fact though? In my mind I still see it as speculation because in each time this scene is depicted it is under chaos influence. For all we know it could really of been some freak accident and the emperor is just a complete badass (which he still is regardless of making a bargin with chaos or not).

Another theory I was just thinking of is, maybe the Emperor didn't critize Lorgar for worshipping him at first because he wanted to see how it felt. Maybe the Emperor wanted to see if he himself was ready to be worshipped. He may not be a God, but in total honesty I don't believe there are many people who would not want to be worshipped as a God at somepoint.

Again, great read, hopefully you are able to write another Horus Heresy book ADB, it would be great to read another one of your novels (I have read all of your other novels and they are amazing if i might add).


FX


----------



## World Eater XII

Fancyxeno21 said:


> Now my question, so far in the horus heresy novels whenever the pods where the primarch were created is depicted, it shows how the emperor made a bargin with the chaos gods etc etc. Is this actually a fact though? In my mind I still see it as speculation because in each time this scene is depicted it is under chaos influence. For all we know it could really of been some freak accident and the emperor is just a complete badass (which he still is regardless of making a bargin with chaos or not).



I think its one of those things that is generally regarded as canon. 

I look it as that, because the Gods had a hand in their creation and that the Primarchs had a bit of chaos in them, it allowed the Big 4 to whisk them off and lay the foundation for the heresy.


----------



## X FiftY 1ne

I've finally finished the book and now I can get in on this discussion. First of all, awesome book Aaron. It's a tie between this and _A Thousand Sons_, but I have a couple questions that have been nagging the hell out of me. Ingethel explains to Argel' Tal that the Emperor bargained with Chaos for the knowledge to complete the Primarchs. This is shown to us by the writing on each incubation chamber, but what was it that Chaos wanted in return? Ingethel said all Chaos wanted was Primordial Truth, but that can't surely be all. All Chaos asked for in return of said knowledge was for the Emperor to spread the truth of the gods existence?

Also, what is this "Primordial Truth"? Ingethel explains to Argel' Tal, in order for humanity to survive they must accept Chaos, only then can they be ready for the Xenos threats that await them in the galaxy. Does this mean accept Chaos as in give in to them and be corrupt like everything else that their taint touches(sacrifices, etc)? Or is it more along the lines of what prophets speak of in real life such as accepting evil, knowing it's there, but never giving in to any temptation? Accepting evil breaks the bonds of dualism. It keeps the balance so good nor evil has the upper hand, eventually destroying the ego and releasing the true spirit the resides inside all sentient beings. This is how I picture the Primordial Truth. 

Even though Ingethel is a daemon of Chaos/Warp, he does speak truth as would all of Chaos presumably because the truth is never pretty (it's Chaos's one true ally). In other words, simply accepting Chaos would satisfy the Gods. The dead's souls would travel to the warp (knowing this upon death) and the living could carry on in utter harmony. No sacrifices, no wars, no hate. Simply love for humanity.

Am I somewhat right or am I just thinking way to deeply into this?


----------



## Fancyxeno21

World Eater XII said:


> I think its one of those things that is generally regarded as canon.
> 
> I look it as that, because the Gods had a hand in their creation and that the Primarchs had a bit of chaos in them, it allowed the Big 4 to whisk them off and lay the foundation for the heresy.


so basically without a deal being made with the chaos gods then there would be no primarchs and well warhammer40k would be very different


----------



## World Eater XII

I believe so anyway. 

I think if the Chaos gods didnt have a hand in the creation of the Primarchs then they wouldnt be as strong or unique as they were.


----------



## TheReverend

Awesome book, well written and with some amazing revelations. Easily one of the best HH books so far! 

And once again, I now want to start a new army...

Rev


----------



## Khorne's Fist

World Eater XII said:


> I think if the Chaos gods didnt have a hand in the creation of the Primarchs then they wouldnt be as strong or unique as they were.


I agree. I think we discussed this in some depth with regard to _A Thousand Sons,_ with revelations regarding the physiology of the primarchs, and Russ's seeming immunity to Magnus' warp powers. It was hinted that Magnus followed the same route to cure his legion's afflictions as the Emperor had to create the Primarchs. ADB just seems to be confirming that.


----------



## space cowboy

This thread has grown huge since I've been able to buy the book and get it finished, so I am basically posting this with having read very few of the posts, so I don't know if any of this stuff has been brought up yet or not. If it has, I apologize.

First, excellent book. I enjoyed it and found the non-action content to be much more suspenseful and awesome than the action content (which is saying something because the action content was great.) I love how all of the traitor primarchs came across, with each one basically being selfish and not really caring why Lorgar was rebelling. I also love how Perturabo and the Iron Warriors didn't care at all about any of the other traitors fighting with them, and would very clearly have preferred to be on their own at the drop site. I especially loved when they are shooting down loyalist aircraft and very callously not caring about the deaths of the Night Lords and Word Bearers due to the wreckage. Great stuff.

That being said, even though it may not have been intended, Lorgar's story reads like a reverse version of the story of Job. Basically Lorgar seems like Job to me, except where Job keeps his faith through his trials, Lorgar loses his and finds himself 'suckered' into following the path of damnation. If Lorgar had better friends around him that truly understood him, they could have explained that, while the Emperor may not be a god as such, faith in the way of the Imperium could be just as powerful as faith in a deity. I am always frustrated by the tragedy of awesome primarchs that are lead down the wrong path by evil men in their midst. I just hope that Perturabo turns out to just be a bad guy for the sake of being a bad guy.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I think Peturabo just genuinely doesn't care about anyone any more. He was pretty much disregarded despite him having the hardest tasks to accomplish, and was even embarrassed by Dorn who was then chosen to be the Emperor's "left hand" man. I think he is a guy who got shafted and just wants a little vengeance for the hell of it. 

Iron Warriors are probably my favourite evil legion, they ain't devoted to any god and there's no way their planet will ever be taken from them and plus they just look cool. With the new forge world models I would seriously consider sometime in the future making a chaos army.


----------



## space cowboy

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> See, to my mind, and it seems to the minds of pretty much every review I've seen, free will and the chance of making a decision, coupled with the gene-seed flaw, just adds nuance and and depth to the narrative.
> 
> As I said (twice now), there's still doubt, and the gene-seed _was_ involved in the Legion's fall. Argel Tal made decisions based on faith, trust and hope - knowing that his decisions were affected in some way. But not some "YOU MUST DO THIS" basic genetic drive. It's a factor, not the only and entire reason.
> 
> I'm cool with you disliking it, that's your right. But don't take the complicated answer and make it sound simple. That's kinda disingenuous.


I would like to point out that free-will versus the geneseed is the same argument that occurs in real life when discussing free-will versus genetics. It is a very nuanced argument that is neither definitively free-will nor definitively genetics, but some combination of the two that are inseparable. I agree that it shouldn't be simplified or denigrated as it is one of the great questions.


----------



## AK74Bob

Man Lorgar is such a pansy. LOL even the Custodes mention that he is a "weakling primarch". The Word Bearers having to kneel before Big E was epic. I had to laugh at Lorgar sucker punching Guilliman and Malcador, just shows that he is even more of a whiny POS and should have been executed right then and there. It reminded me when Dorn hit Garro earlier in the HH series, that pissed me off too. Lorgar isn't at all likeable, like Horus was for the first couple of novels; hell I even liked Magnus (heretical as it maybe). But I still can't believe how naive all the traitors are, surely a snake daemon creature that smells like crap would never lie for its own gain.....

However, I still thoroughly enjoyed the novel ADB, so don't think I'm bashing you. Your other two novels _Cadian Blood_ and _Helsreach_ were also awesome.


----------



## D-A-C

Well my copy of _First Heretic _arrived about 12 hours ago and I've just finished reading it as I couldn't put it down. So where to begin?

(1) *Cyrene *- The thing I was most impressed with throughout the entire book (and although I haven't read every message here, I think this hasn't been mentioned) was the portrayal of the character Cyrene. What a freaking awesome character. Her addition to the lore of the WB's Legion was for me outstanding and if I had to sum up the most positive aspect of A-D-B's writing style, it is his ability to craft fascinating human characters that add to the plot in a variety of ways. From her witnessing the death of her world to her final moments, no scene involving this character was anything less than stunning, and her faith in the Legion, Primarch and particularly Argel Tal until her end was very well portrayed, and for me at least, tugged on the old heartstrings (I'm such a softy lol) . So this is the second A-D-B book where he has for me created a human character that I genuinely cared about (the other being Eurydice in _Soul Hunter_, although the three remembrencers in _Thousand Sons_ deserve an honourable mention as well.)

(2) *The Primarch Lorgar *- I can actually understand alot of the criticisms of the Primarch coming across as being whiny. I think having a Primarch that questioned his nature as, lets face it, the ultimate personification of death ever invented was bound to divide people. I personally liked it, but only because I'm glad every single one of the 18 won't be like ..... and he kicked everyone's ass ...... and he was the most awesome being at everything ever ..... and he was invulnerable to everything .... etc etc. I find it incredibly difficult to understand priests, religion etc but what this book did for me was made me realise that Lorgar wasn't just a religious nutter who worshipped something just to satisfy his need to worship, but was actually rather thoughtful in his actions and wanted to help all of humanity. To this end, I actually found the scenes on Istivan sad, rather than pathetic. I just felt sorry for Lorgar because he wasn't the ultimate badass warrior like Angron or Russ, therefore there was something rather tragic about his fight with Corax and the fact that basically none of his brothers or his fathers (plural) really understood him.

(3) *Portrayal of the WB's * - Obviously Argel Tal was a great character as was Xaphen to a lesser extent, as for the rest of the Legion, for me it was a mixed bag. Kor Phaeron came across as a major twat (if that was the intention, mission accomplished!) Erebus was actually quite interesting throughout and the info we got about him contributed well to the existing material on the character. The rest, never really stood out and the Legion as a whole IMO suffered for that. Towards the end it felt like the Legion was just lacking something. It felt like a small group of characters and lacked any sense of self or personality beyond that tiny group of characters, in the way the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children all have for me. 

Those are just some thoughts I had immediately after turning the last page. Anyone else agree or disagree?


----------



## AK74Bob

I would agree with you DAC. Cyrene, Xaphen and Argel Tal were all very good characters and like you pointed out Kor Phaeron and Erebus (for that matter) were both jackasses. Erebus has been that way from the beginning.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

AK74Bob said:


> But I still can't believe how naive all the traitors are, surely a snake daemon creature that smells like crap would never lie for its own gain.....


You may as well throw in how you can't believe how naive the loyalists were, surely the great God-Emperor, leader and protector of humanity would never lie... Oh wait...

Im also going to say that in my eyes, anyone who interprets Lorgar as 'whiny' is really missing a large part of what the novel was about.


----------



## Ferrus Manus

well, what can i say, brillian book, one of my favourite in the series 

but i just wanted to ask a couple of questions:

1. did Erebus need the custodians originally for the assassination plot in nemesis concerning "spear"

2.on page 475 it says: "We failed to capture any of the Emperors sons here and you will not find Horus or even Aurelian eager to let their blood be manipulated in such a way" 

well i thought has they imply that they only need the blood of a primarch and not their heart, so i thought we did they not use the corpse of Ferrus Manus, but the quote from the book says they couldnt get any blood from the loyal primarchs..? :S


so i wasnt sure whether it was a writers error or meant to imply that ferrus survived, or whether it was just worder strangely to suggest Ferrus's blood was useless or gone/dried up..


----------



## AK74Bob

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You may as well throw in how you can't believe how naive the loyalists were, surely the great God-Emperor, leader and protector of humanity would never lie... Oh wait...
> 
> Im also going to say that in my eyes, anyone who interprets Lorgar as 'whiny' is really missing a large part of what the novel was about.


Everyone (Custodes, Night Haunter, Guilliman, Corax, Emperor) besides the Word Bearers call Lorgar a weakling coward, he's sure as hell isn't the philosopher king that he claims. Night Haunter's one liners about the great Lorgar: "rise from your knees you accursed coward" and "you are the foulest weakling I have ever seen Lorgar". A merry band of traitors, now we know why the loyalists win. We know the Night Lords and Alpha Legion aren't big fans of chaos. No unity among traitors.

Daemons lie so that they can rape and kill things, I'm thinking the Emperor has better reasons for lying to his people. I guess you would be more trusting of a snake creature that smells of poo that was just birthed in a blood ritual, rather than an angelic grandpa you have served with for a century who has unified humanity as the greatest empire in the galaxy?

BTW I've changed my opinion of Xaphen, he is an a-hole similar to Erebus; whereas I feel even more sympathetic towards Argel Tal and even Lorgar (he is still whiny though).


----------



## darkreever

AK74Bob said:


> No unity among traitors.


No shit, thats why it took an almighty champion like Horus to bind all of the traitor legions to a single cause and keep them in line.


----------



## AK74Bob

An almighty champion that was KO'd in the blink of an eye by a crippled Big E. I wonder if the canon is going to change...will Big E teleport up to Horus' barge and still hesitate to kill him? Because some are now thinking that the Emperor meant for the heresy to happen, but then why would he be so hesitant to kill Horus? So many questions...need more HH novels 

BTW Lorgar and his chaplains may have had more to do with bringing the traitor legions together then Horus did. I mean the Word Bearers, Erebus in particular brought Horus on board. It seems to me that the Word Bearers may have been larger than the rest of the traitor legions combined as well. The novel said they had 100,000 space marines.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

AK74Bob said:


> Everyone (Custodes, Night Haunter, Guilliman, Corax, Emperor) besides the Word Bearers call Lorgar a weakling coward, so clearly you weren't paying attention.


Oh, I realised that. But that is of course part of the tragedy of Lorgar. He was judged as a coward (by the Custodes, Guilliman and Kurze) based on the assumption that he was exactly the being he was intended to be - a great warlord, a being who was going to conquer the galaxy - and no more. Yet Lorgar was so much more than that, he was on the same scale as Magnus the Red in this regard, and the two of them were alone among the Primarchs. He was not a warrior, he was a philosopher. He was not a mindless warlord (like so many other of his brothers), he was a thinker. He was trying to enlighten humanity, not merely enslave it through bloodshed (something which the Emperor seemed intent on).

This is why he was called a coward, because he wasn't the warrior many of his brother's were. Because after the realisation of the Emperor's lies he discovered the universal truth of the universe and tried to enlighten humanity. Because others didn't understand his intentions, nature or achievements, they followed the Emperor blindly - where as he had discovered the Emperor's lies and thus shattered the foundations of the Imperium. Out of their own naivety they called him a coward, but they were wrong.



AK74Bob said:


> I guess you would be more trusting of a snake creature that smells of poo that was just birthed in a blood ritual, rather than an angelic grandpa you have served with for a century who has unified humanity as the greatest empire in the galaxy?


The difference of course being that Ingethel showed Lorgar and his Legion firsthand the true nature of the galaxy. He showed them the power of the gods, and they realised that chaos and humanity had a mutual need for one another. On the other hand the Emperor had treated them like shit (allowing them to preach his divinity for a century only to suddenly refute it in Monarchia) and fundamentally lied to the whole Imperium. He even used chaos to create the Primarchs, everything he did was based on hypocrisy and lies.



AK74Bob said:


> (he is still whiny though).


Remind me why you think that again?


----------



## AK74Bob

"The universal truth" as viewed through the lens of CHAOS and a DAEMON. Just because it is in a novel, doesn't mean it is the truth especially when spoken by a frigging daemon.

Remember when Erebus showed Horus "the truth"? He's like "you won't be loved and worshipped by the Imperium like your other brothers...so we should rebel". HORUS the only reason you won't be loved is because you rebel. The Brightest Star yet so easily manipulated.

Yes Lorgar is similar to Magnus as they are both scholars. I know i'm a little harsh on Lorgar, I apologize. But he's the one that brings about the stagnation that is the Imperium in 40K, even though he set out to stop that from happening. Irony...


----------



## bobss

I will be -quite frankly- disgusted if the Heresy was planned by the Emperor. The corruption of the Primarch's, their Legions of Astartes and swathes of other sects of humanity beneath the Dark Gods was the utter antithesis of what the Emperor wanted. The Emperor knew of the Ruinous Powers, he even bargained with their might to forge his twenty gene-sons. However, in the respite of Old Night, the Emperor _knew_ that as soon as Humanity rose to the pinnacle of its Galactic might, it would be hamstrug and wiped back to Genocide enacted by self-elected Tyrants, daemonic incursions and a number of heresies. The Emperor destroyed any notion of Religion -bar that of the Omnissiah, of which he declared himself the incarnation of- as Religion, absolute belief in Gods and Demons and Angels and greater powers would inadvertantly lead back to the days of Old Night. 

The Emperor attempted to replicate, or ''jack in'' to the Eldar Webway; to allow humanities expansion to continue throughout the Galaxy and avoid the collapse in infrastructure that would equate should Warp travel be abandoned to deny corruption through the Warp. He made his Astartes ''supposedly'' uncorruptable, he forged their gene's in such ways that they would know no fear, and would not turn their bolters upon fellow innocent humans or Astartes alike, _ever_.

Yet for all this, Chaos did worm its way back in, and if any utterly ridiculous, mind-blowing idocy like the Emperor planning the Heresy comes to light, I will declare the series as bullshit and pour over the original fluff. Of course, which I don't want to do; _Fulgrim_, _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_, _A Thousand Sons_, _Mechanicum_ and maybe _The First Heretic_; brilliant reads, of which I would loathe to be undone by something as mind-fuckingly rancid as this theory.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

AK74Bob said:


> "The universal truth" as viewed through the lens of CHAOS and a DAEMON. Just because it is in a novel, doesn't mean it is the truth especially when spoken by a frigging daemon.


When I say truth, I refer more to the fact that Lorgar was gifted with the realisation that the Emperor was lying. That's what I meant in my previous post. 

The Emperor is the reason why Lorgar takes the Pilgrimage in the first place, prior to Monarchia he was content and secure in his believe in the God-Emperor. Yet the Emperor desired the Primarchs to merely be mindless, brutal warlords - something which Lorgar wasn't and could never have been.

That's why Lorgar coins the term - 'Everything is about Monarchia...'



bobss said:


> I will be -quite frankly- disgusted if the Heresy was planned by the Emperor. The corruption of the Primarch's, their Legions of Astartes and swathes of other sects of humanity beneath the Dark Gods was the utter antithesis of what the Emperor wanted. The Emperor knew of the Ruinous Powers, he even bargained with their might to forge his twenty gene-sons. However, in the respite of Old Night, the Emperor _knew_ that as soon as Humanity rose to the pinnacle of its Galactic might, it would be hamstrug and wiped back to Genocide enacted by self-elected Tyrants, daemonic incursions and a number of heresies. The Emperor destroyed any notion of Religion -bar that of the Omnissiah, of which he declared himself the incarnation of- as Religion, absolute belief in Gods and Demons and Angels and greater powers would inadvertantly lead back to the days of Old Night.
> 
> The Emperor attempted to replicate, or ''jack in'' to the Eldar Webway; to allow humanities expansion to continue throughout the Galaxy and avoid the collapse in infrastructure that would equate should Warp travel be abandoned to deny corruption through the Warp. He made his Astartes ''supposedly'' uncorruptable, he forged their gene's in such ways that they would know no fear, and would not turn their bolters upon fellow innocent humans or Astartes alike, _ever_.
> 
> Yet for all this, Chaos did worm its way back in, and if any utterly ridiculous, mind-blowing idocy like the Emperor planning the Heresy comes to light, I will declare the series as bullshit and pour over the original fluff. Of course, which I don't want to do; _Fulgrim_, _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_, _A Thousand Sons_, _Mechanicum_ and maybe _The First Heretic_; brilliant reads, of which I would loathe to be undone by something as mind-fuckingly rancid as this theory.


Couldn't agree more. But I highly doubt that is the path they will take.


----------



## AK74Bob

Yeah I see what your saying CotE. And Bobss, I couldn't agree with you more. :biggrin:


----------



## X FiftY 1ne

Skimming through the book a second time after having already read it, I still am confused as to what Ingethel means when she says that the Eldar damned themselves by not living in harmony with Chaos. So, in their ignorance, Chaos ultimately destroys them. This would apply to ALL mortals who wish to prosper, that they must ACCEPT chaos. 

My Question is, how exactly do you live in "harmony" with Chaos. Is it just mere acceptance, or is it something entirely different?


----------



## rafunparked

Ok first of all I finished The First Heretic a few days ago and I just have to agree with the others on it quite possibly being the top of the Heresy series. It did it all, gave great action, characterization, some new snippets of info and even was able to rehash Istavaan and make it just as original and badass. 

Corax's scenes in my opinion stole the show. I never really cared for him but after this I have to say the raven guard just became that much more badass. And kurze who could forget that awesome sadistic psycho. BTW nice name drops from Soul Hunter. 

And A.D.B THANK YOU for finally depicting the custodes as the supermen they are. I loved thousand sons but McNeill just tossed the custodes around like they came out of a candy machine. Hopefully we get more action from them.Overall GREAT book cant wait for the time to advance.


----------



## space cowboy

bobss said:


> I will be -quite frankly- disgusted if the Heresy was planned by the Emperor. The corruption of the Primarch's, their Legions of Astartes and swathes of other sects of humanity beneath the Dark Gods was the utter antithesis of what the Emperor wanted. The Emperor knew of the Ruinous Powers, he even bargained with their might to forge his twenty gene-sons. However, in the respite of Old Night, the Emperor _knew_ that as soon as Humanity rose to the pinnacle of its Galactic might, it would be hamstrug and wiped back to Genocide enacted by self-elected Tyrants, daemonic incursions and a number of heresies. The Emperor destroyed any notion of Religion -bar that of the Omnissiah, of which he declared himself the incarnation of- as Religion, absolute belief in Gods and Demons and Angels and greater powers would inadvertantly lead back to the days of Old Night.
> 
> The Emperor attempted to replicate, or ''jack in'' to the Eldar Webway; to allow humanities expansion to continue throughout the Galaxy and avoid the collapse in infrastructure that would equate should Warp travel be abandoned to deny corruption through the Warp. He made his Astartes ''supposedly'' uncorruptable, he forged their gene's in such ways that they would know no fear, and would not turn their bolters upon fellow innocent humans or Astartes alike, _ever_.
> 
> Yet for all this, Chaos did worm its way back in, and if any utterly ridiculous, mind-blowing idocy like the Emperor planning the Heresy comes to light, I will declare the series as bullshit and pour over the original fluff. Of course, which I don't want to do; _Fulgrim_, _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_, _A Thousand Sons_, _Mechanicum_ and maybe _The First Heretic_; brilliant reads, of which I would loathe to be undone by something as mind-fuckingly rancid as this theory.


I will be far more disappointed if the Emperor didn't manipulate these events. How could you create 20 super-beings, have to kill 2 of them for going against you in some form, and still not have the vision to see that you might have to let some, or all, of them in on some of the secrets so that they don't grow distrusting and rise up against you?

He could have just pulled Lorgar aside and said 'Son, there are foul intelligences in the warp that seek to enslave humanity. Faith in mysterious deities and adherence to their rites and superstitions fuels their power and prevents mankind from taking its rightful place as the rulers of the galaxy. The only way to keep humanity from casting their lot with these destructive subjugators is to cast our faith with the Imperium and the Imperial Creed. The Imperium is not one man, but all men, and to raise one above the rest would be to do a grave disservice to the contributions of the rest. Please stop deifying me, and instead promote the Imperium and the Imperial Creed, as that faith will keep us all from falling into chaos.'

There, one paragraph and I explained in simple terms what the hell is going on and why things have to be done a certain way. There are a number of other explanations that could have been given to any of the other traitor primarchs that would have given them the needed insight into the Emperor's plan and mind to allow them to be satisfied with their lot in the Emperor's plans so that they didn't follow the path of the traitor.

Unless, of course, the Emperor planned on some of his sons to turn to Chaos. You know, maybe part of his bargain with the gods in exchange for his ability to create the primarchs was to play a 'game' against the gods. The Emperor wouldn't inform any primarchs of his plans and the chaos gods would be allowed to try to corrupt them. Whichever ones fell the chaos gods were allowed to keep, but the ones that didn't were to remain untainted (or some other such explanation as to why the Emperor would so willingly blind his own sons to the truth of what he was doing.)


----------



## Commissar Ploss

simply put, the Emperor is a silly bitch. a silly warmongering bitch.

CP


----------



## Lord of the Night

The Emperor can't have planned the Heresy, but he may have forseen it, or bits of it. There might be a reason he didn't tell the Primarchs about the Ruinous Powers, perhaps he foresaw that one of them would fall and become the true Champion of Chaos and lead the others in a rebellion. Thus he decided to keep Chaos a secret even from them and punished any attempt to find meaning beyond this universe, such as Magnus's sorcery and Lorgar's faith.


----------



## mal310

bobss said:


> I will be -quite frankly- disgusted if the Heresy was planned by the Emperor. The corruption of the Primarch's, their Legions of Astartes and swathes of other sects of humanity beneath the Dark Gods was the utter antithesis of what the Emperor wanted. The Emperor knew of the Ruinous Powers, he even bargained with their might to forge his twenty gene-sons. However, in the respite of Old Night, the Emperor _knew_ that as soon as Humanity rose to the pinnacle of its Galactic might, it would be hamstrug and wiped back to Genocide enacted by self-elected Tyrants, daemonic incursions and a number of heresies. The Emperor destroyed any notion of Religion -bar that of the Omnissiah, of which he declared himself the incarnation of- as Religion, absolute belief in Gods and Demons and Angels and greater powers would inadvertantly lead back to the days of Old Night.
> 
> The Emperor attempted to replicate, or ''jack in'' to the Eldar Webway; to allow humanities expansion to continue throughout the Galaxy and avoid the collapse in infrastructure that would equate should Warp travel be abandoned to deny corruption through the Warp. He made his Astartes ''supposedly'' uncorruptable, he forged their gene's in such ways that they would know no fear, and would not turn their bolters upon fellow innocent humans or Astartes alike, _ever_.
> 
> Yet for all this, Chaos did worm its way back in, and if any utterly ridiculous, mind-blowing idocy like the Emperor planning the Heresy comes to light, I will declare the series as bullshit and pour over the original fluff. Of course, which I don't want to do; _Fulgrim_, _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_, _A Thousand Sons_, _Mechanicum_ and maybe _The First Heretic_; brilliant reads, of which I would loathe to be undone by something as mind-fuckingly rancid as this theory.


Totally agree with you Bobss. If they went down the route that the Emperor foresaw or planned the heresy I don’t think I would read another book. I think it would be a horrific direction to take.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I already outlined the way I perceive the Emperor possibly guiding the Heresy, it makes sense but whether it's true or not I don't know. If the Emperor was that powerful and on the level of the Chaos Gods then you'd assume he'd have some early influence over it.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Commissar Ploss said:


> simply put, the Emperor is a silly bitch. a silly warmongering bitch.
> 
> CP


Well said pal, well said.


----------



## bobss

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Couldn't agree more. But I highly doubt that is the path they will take.





AK74Bob said:


> Yeah I see what your saying CotE. And Bobss, I couldn't agree with you more. :biggrin:





mal310 said:


> Totally agree with you Bobss. If they went down the route that the Emperor foresaw or planned the heresy I don’t think I would read another book. I think it would be a horrific direction to take.


:biggrin: And here is me thinking I was perhaps a little _too_ passionate. 

To support, or develop further, my earlier point, finishing off _Mechanicum _now (I am a rather slow reader, yes) it makes even more sense that the Emperor shielded and prepared humanity for the multitude of threats that would spawn from Chaos once more. 

For example: Within _Mechanicum_, as Dalia witnesses the truth about the Void Dragon's imprisonment within the Noctis Labrynthus beneath Mars, it is for the reason of founding the very Mechanicum itself. Without the bondage of the Dragon, the very first Tech-Priests would never have dreamt of harnessing such technology, without this supposed technological deity called the ''Omnissiah'' the Emperor could never have taken control of Mars as cleanly and efficiently as he was able to at the beginning of the Great Crusade. Hell, four companies of Imperial Fists, countless Imperial Army regiments and Saturnian Hoplites struggle to contain barely a handful of rogue Forges. 


The Emperor is perhaps the greatest mortal Psyker ever to have sequester the Galaxy, and certainly _by-far _the most taciturn visionary. But the ''Emperor'' as in: The majestic figure glad within Terran-beaten gold plate is _not_ a God (Perhaps the building Warp-presence in the 41st Millennium known as the ''God-Emperor'' is, but that’s tangible). He is most certainly _not_ perfection incarnate or the manifestation of harmony (As I am sure _The First Heretic_ will take and develop beautifully). 

This leads onto Lord of the Night's point-



Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor can't have planned the Heresy, but he may have foreseen it, or bits of it. There might be a reason he didn't tell the Primarchs about the Ruinous Powers, perhaps he foresaw that one of them would fall and become the true Champion of Chaos and lead the others in a rebellion. Thus he decided to keep Chaos a secret even from them and punished any attempt to find meaning beyond this universe, such as Magnus's sorcery and Lorgar's faith.


I agree, strongly, and think this is a good summarative. The Emperor was a mighty psyker, so he would have a knowledgeable grasp upon the strands of the future, of which I am sure the Horus Heresy would have been one he was aware of. But this only goes to support the Emperor's -sometimes stark- precautions. The Emperor needed to chastisise Lorgar* for his worship of himself, for through blind, religious devotion are the seeds of Heresy nurtured, with what... who knows? The Emperor possibly being revered as some herald of the Dark Gods themselves. The Emperor was aware that essentially bitch-slapping Lorgar with a haddock would have ramifications, but this is the Emperor, he _needed_ to do what was _necessary_ for humanities virgin innocence to remain unfouled by Chaos.

The same is applicable to Magnus and his delvings into the aether.

To summarise: Yes, the Emperor may have been aware of the Heresy, yes he may not have bestowed the fatherly love upon his sons enough, or equally, yes he bargained with the Chaos Gods, manipulated the Mechanicum and entombed a C'tan all for his own selfish ends (Hence by this logic definitively he could be classed as ''evil'') But this was to prevent the Heresy, prevent the corruption of his lieutenants, of the Mechanicum, of humanity as a whole. The Emperor truly was ''the light''... without him, humanity may not crumble to dust, or wither to ashes instantly, but it would be far easier to corrupt, weaken and enslave - the Heresy accomplished that, perfectly. Wielding the Emperor's gene-wrought tools against him, shattering his dream and leaving the Imperium with a future, albeit one that is reliant on Warp travel, is bludgeoned into belief in ''Machine Spirits'' and ''The God-Emperor'', ripe to be corrupted and plucked at will by the Ruinous Powers.

*I haven't read _The First Heretic _yet, so... please forgive any blatant contradictions of hipocrisy:wink:


----------



## Fancyxeno21

in my opinion, I think the emperor would have obviously known that the heresy could be a possible future, and to prevent the heresy from coming true, he suddenly told lorgar no calling him the god-emperor and told magnus no more magic. He didn't mind it before, he was just letting his sons be happy, but then when he has a vision that his sons could rebel against him and start a grand civil war, he cracked down to try and prevent it. 

Him cracking down on Magnus and Lorgar could of worked too. Who knows if Magnus would of agreed and stopped if he hadnt of had the vision of Horus turning causing him to then use magic to try and prevent it. Lorgar started conquoring more planets than any other legion, so the Emperor must of been pretty happy about that. There is no way he could of forseen that Lorgar would happen to find the Eye of Terror, thats just blind luck (unless i missed something in The First Heretic, correct me if I am wrong, I am still rereading it to see what I missed). 

Also regarding Lorgar, I think it was Erebus that told him his greatest weakness was trusting others too easily. Because of that, it seems like it would make Lorgar very easy to persuade, hence why the demon was able to change Lorgar and his legion to chaos. All the futures that Chaos has shown Lorgar, and even when Erebus shows Horus in False Gods, are just one possible future. Lorgar and Horus were just too dumb to believe that other things can happen.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Well said _bobss_.



Fancyxeno21 said:


> in my opinion, I think the emperor would have obviously known that the heresy could be a possible future.


But then again there are infinite possible futures. The _Horus_ Heresy was possible, but so was the _Dornian_ Heresy. It was possible that no rebellion would have occured, or even possible that all of the Primarchs would have died in combat prior to the end of the Great Crusade, and that's the point. There are literally *infinite* possibilities.

The Emperor may have seen the Horus Heresy as a possibility (among countless others), but his love and devotion to Horus deluded himself to assure himself it was impossible. But ultimately why should the Emperor have placed any faith in such a vision if it was only one meagre possibility, logically it would have seemed much more likely that either no rebellion would have happened or it would have come from another Primarch - one that had already gone rogue or seemed that way, Curze for example.

Ultimately the Emperor (although an incredibly powerful psyker) could not determine the future any more than powerful Eldar farseers could for example, which was by no means certain. Not even the timeless Tzeentch himself knows the future for certain, and he has access to Fateweaver.

There is also the factor of the Shadow Point. Psykers cannot see their own death, if this is the case the Heresy was beyond the Emperor's psy-vision as it resulted in his death (at least for all intents and purposes anyway).

Conclusively I think that the Emperor may have thought of the Horus Heresy as a vague possibility, but the fact that their were infinite plausable futures and Horus being the greatest Primarch and the Emperor's brightest star essentially made him think of it as more of an impossibility.


----------



## ckcrawford

I'm not condoning or condemning the idea that the Emperor planned out the Heresy. But it indeed has got me thinking of why the Emperor played favorites with some of the Primarchs and basically ignored others. 

You could take a view with the Emperor that he wasn't going to take any bullshit from his sons. Which I think is a fine idea. However, having to play games with Vulkan and Leman Russ to win them over explains the contrary. 

Angron for example was not given the same luxury. In fact he wasn't even allowed to have his planet. I figure that this planet would have eventually been purged and conquered as part of the crusade. The fact that the Emperor didn't seem to lend a hand and help conquer Angron's planet is interesting.

Edit: I would go as far as saying he did more than ignore his primarchs, he dishonored many of them to the brink. Some of the primarchs would be the two lost primarchs, Konrad Curze, Angron, Perturabo, Logar. Thats about 6 I can think of that I so far don't think of as being legitimate banishments or "unfavored."


----------



## Gree

I'm about halfway through it now.

There were some parts that I liked about Guilliman, for example calmy getting up and calling out Lorgar on his outburst, not even caring about Lorgar's rage, really made the book for me. Real badass.

I liked how A-D-B handled Lorgar as being more than the sterotypical preacher that the fandom sees him as. He's a a visionary in a way. I think the turning of the Word Bearers was well handled overall, if a little vague at some points.


----------



## Fancyxeno21

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But then again there are infinite possible futures. The _Horus_ Heresy was possible, but so was the _Dornian_ Heresy. It was possible that no rebellion would have occured, or even possible that all of the Primarchs would have died in combat prior to the end of the Great Crusade, and that's the point. There are literally *infinite* possibilities.
> 
> The Emperor may have seen the Horus Heresy as a possibility (among countless others), but his love and devotion to Horus deluded himself to assure himself it was impossible. But ultimately why should the Emperor have placed any faith in such a vision if it was only one meagre possibility, logically it would have seemed much more likely that either no rebellion would have happened or it would have come from another Primarch - one that had already gone rogue or seemed that way, Curze for example.
> 
> Ultimately the Emperor (although an incredibly powerful psyker) could not determine the future any more than powerful Eldar farseers could for example, which was by no means certain. Not even the timeless Tzeentch himself knows the future for certain, and he has access to Fateweaver.
> 
> There is also the factor of the Shadow Point. Psykers cannot see their own death, if this is the case the Heresy was beyond the Emperor's psy-vision as it resulted in his death (at least for all intents and purposes anyway).
> 
> Conclusively I think that the Emperor may have thought of the Horus Heresy as a vague possibility, but the fact that their were infinite plausable futures and Horus being the greatest Primarch and the Emperor's brightest star essentially made him think of it as more of an impossibility.


 
While I do agree with you, you bring up alot of points that make complete sense that I did not think about. But even if the Emperor saw a billion different heresies, then I think he would not be dumb enough not to take precautions. He could of thought Horus turning is more of an impossiblity, but he could maybe of that Lorgar or Magnus turning, thats why he told Magnus no psyker stuff and told Lorgar that he wasn't a god, to make Lorgar believe that there were no gods so he would not turn to Chaos. 


Another possibility is that the 2 "lost" legions had turned to chaos, or had shown signs and the Emperor did not want that to happen again.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The main point behind the reason I see the emperor being behind the heresy is because he wishes to become almost god like himself so that humanity has someone as powerful as the chaos gods on their side.


----------



## darkreever

Words_of_Truth said:


> The main point behind the reason I see the emperor being behind the heresy is because he wishes to become almost god like himself so that humanity has someone as powerful as the chaos gods on their side.


But in the end doesn't that contradict much of the fluff? That he was trying to rid worship and superstition because regardless of who they are for, at least some part goes to fuel those chaos gods he's trying to get rid of?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> The main point behind the reason I see the emperor being behind the heresy is because he wishes to become almost god like himself so that humanity has someone as powerful as the chaos gods on their side.


But then why not just set himself up as a god during the unification period, rather than inadvertently establish himself as one by engineering the entire Heresy and the duel with Horus? That way he could potentially have saved corruption from seeping into the Primarchs and losing half of his Astartes Legions and prevented his Imperium from being torn asunder - and more importantly he wouldn't have been confined to the Golden Throne.

Personally I think we need to take the Heresy at face value, the Emperor didn't see it coming, he didn't plan it. His hubris to an extent caused it, and he suffered for it. Thats how I see it anyway.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The reason he doesn't proclaim he is a god is because he knows humanity is fickle when it comes to things like that. Like Lorgar said "Only a true god denies he is a god" or something along those lines. Worship that is freely given is stronger than faith that is demanded and he needs the faith in him to be powerful otherwise he'll never achieve his accession into becoming a god that is powerful enough to combat chaos.

Take the Lectitio Divinitatus for example it bore the fruits of the Imperial religion and faith, it was so powerful that the faith ended up making the first saint.

I'm not saying it's an idea without faults but I really do believe the Emperor had something to do with the whole start of the Heresy, it's as if he chose which Primarchs he could rely on to be strong and those who knew would fail him.


----------



## Fancyxeno21

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'm not saying it's an idea without faults but I really do believe the Emperor had something to do with the whole start of the Heresy, it's as if he chose which Primarchs he could rely on to be strong and those who knew would fail him.


If he constructed the heresy and chose which primarchs would stay loyal then how come his most favored son Horus, who he made warmaster turned on him. No matter if he constructed it or not, I don't think he thought Horus, out of all the primarchs, would turn against him.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Well maybe he favoured him because choosing one son over another invokes the easiest form of jealousy in his siblings. 

Also the son would also become spoiled and it's evident this played a part in Horus's turn, Chaos played on the fact Horus, who had done so much and was given so much praise, deserved to be the ruler of the Galaxy.

Maybe it was just unfortunate that Horus was found first, it could of possibly been any one of the Primarchs, it all depended on who was found first.

The Emperor thinks long term, he probably planned Horus to betray him from the start, who knows.


----------



## AK74Bob

I doubt it was the Emperor's ultimate goal to get crippled and stuck in the golden throne. I think its safe to say that Chaos just outmaneuvered him (heretical as that maybe). He was just too focused on the webway machine in the Imperial palace, which got frakked up by Magnus.


----------



## World Eater XII

I think the Big E believed that, if humanity stopped believing about gods, Then maybe the power of the 4 would be greatly weakened and would be able to wrangle out of the pact he did to create the Primarchs.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Something else rather minor just occured to me. In _TFH_, ADB describes Magnus as having a puckered scar where his eye was, but in _ATS_ didn't McNeill say the skin was flawless, as if there had never been anything there? Seeing as I'm too lazy to walk upstairs and check _ATS_ can anyone else answer this? A small detail, but it's the small ones that stick out for me.


----------



## joechip

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> But it's the _truth_. The Emperor _is_ lying and those lies threaten the entire human race. Only through Chaos will the species be strong enough to fight off the infinite enemies in the galaxy. The only way humanity will survive is to embrace this terrible truth, and Lorgar sacrifices his sons, and himself, to take the first steps. He believes it, and given any knowledge of the 40K universe and its unrelenting grimness, it may very well be true. But the point is, it's not difficult to believe, especially when the Emperor is shown as a liar and a hypocrite.


I find the idea that humanity will somehow be better off under the boot of Chaos pretty unbelievable. Every piece of Black Library fiction that I've read where the Chaos forces manage to take over a planet portrays life under Chaos rule as being worse than death. Now if your saying that Lorgar only "believed" he was helping humanity, not that he was actually right, your statement makes slightly more sense. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar discovered beyond doubt that the Emperor had lied not just to his sons, but to the entire Imperium. The Great Crusade and in fact the Imperium as a whole was based on hypocrisy and a lie.
> 
> Lorgar had shattered his own homeworld based on this lie, he had waged war and genocide for around a century in the Great Crusade based on this lie, and then he was forced to kneel in the ashes of his greatest achievement because of this lie. I don't think your quite grasping what Lorgar had done in the name of faith in the Emperor, and to suddenly have all of his achievements shattered in the ashes of Monarchia - how that effected him.
> 
> He came to realise that because all of the faiths based in human cultures spread across the galaxy shared similar beliefs, that there must be an underlying universal truth. Thus he discovered it, the oh so ugly truth - gods did exist.
> 
> He wasn't gullible or naive in this regard, he had witnessed first hand the existence of the gods, he had witnessed their power. He knew that they existed, despite what the Emperor preached. He realised that humanity needed to embrace chaos in order to survive - I don't see how you can claim Lorgar is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly the point though, the Emperor never explicitly denied being a god. He allowed the religious festivals to honour him as a god on Colchis, he allowed Lorgar and the Word Bearers to take to the Great Crusade preaching that he was a god and spreading such doctrine to conquered worlds. Only after an entire century did he finally reprimand Lorgar...
> 
> And the chaos gods are false gods how?


Again, the idea that embracing Chaos would help humanity seems laughable based on, well, every piece of Black Library fiction I've ever read. It doesn't matter if the chaos gods are false gods or not, they're certainly not worthy of worship.



gothik said:


> so thats what that was thanks for that WOT so, bear with me here, would this make teh emperor as bad as his counterparts in the warp? he kickstarts the heresy acting on Lorgars complete and utter faith, Curze's madness, Horus's feelings of abandonment, Perturabo's annoyance at being the lacky to Dorn, Mortarions mistrust of psykers, Fulgrims Pride against them and his other sons? wonder in that case he was worried about Magnus truely discovering his motives, it would be easy then to say to the wolf...get him he is disobeying my orders. wonder then if he knows what Alpharius's motives are...or is the alpha leigon the one thing he did not play for...
> 
> what a bastard and what a way to ensure his eventual path to godhood, a whole universe of humans worshipping him and giving thier souls for him, gotta love that kind of trecherary.


This is wild speculation.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Maybe, but the reason he's doing it is so he can defeat the very essence of chaos it'self some how or at least be so powerful anything chaos attempts, he can just counter it.


More wild speculation.



ckcrawford said:


> -ADB
> 
> That is interesting, and I wonder if their will be elaboration on the Emperor's random wrath. One thing that I think many people don't understand, is the disgrace and shame the Emperor does by literally telling in front of everyone including his legion what a failure he is. This is pretty messed up. Its one thing to take your general into a private room and talk about changing things around a little or discussing your disapointment.
> 
> But to praise his failure infront of 1 of the 20 strongest armies of the Imperium is FUBAR. Being in the military I would never see a General scream or tell a captain or an Staff NCO what a failure they are. Thats just not going to happen in front of the lesser grade men. And Logar isn't just a general or a powerful warlord. He's pretty much looked like a demi-god.
> 
> There could have been many consequences for the Emperor's behavior. One and foremost the reason why the upper grade don't show discontent like that openly in front of the lesser rank is the result of unease within the Legion of Logars. Logar's legion could have grown to disrespect their own primarch. I think you see that with Kor and Erebus, but they use their primarch to get what they wanted in this situation instead of overthrow him. Second, how did the Emperor think the rest of the Imperium would treat Logar and his legion after this? This incident creates such disrespect that this legion could not be taken serious ever again. And I think how Konrad treats Logar after saving his life and though they are allies is a good testiment to Logar and his Legion's fate after what happened between him and the Emperor.
> 
> Now this random event gets me thinking into why the Emperor did something like this. My only thought, is that the Emperor was waiting for this Primarch and Legion into doing something wrong. He even highlighted their failure by putting Custodes within his ranks. Furthermore evidence is the way the Emperor was supposidely going around and asking the primarchs of what they thought should be Logar's fate. The Emperor must have known or thought something serious over Logar and his legion than simply Logar praising him and being slow during the crusade. If indeed this was the case, the time does seem random and a bit late.


I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And who is to say that doesn't make them gods?


Arguing whether or not the Chaos gods are real gods or not is pointless because neither the fans nor the creators can decide on what even constitutes a god in 40k. The question should be, do they deserve to be worshiped? IMO no. Would any sane, intelligent person be better off staying as far from them as possible? IMO definitely yes.



bobss said:


> I will be -quite frankly- disgusted if the Heresy was planned by the Emperor. The corruption of the Primarch's, their Legions of Astartes and swathes of other sects of humanity beneath the Dark Gods was the utter antithesis of what the Emperor wanted. The Emperor knew of the Ruinous Powers, he even bargained with their might to forge his twenty gene-sons. However, in the respite of Old Night, the Emperor _knew_ that as soon as Humanity rose to the pinnacle of its Galactic might, it would be hamstrug and wiped back to Genocide enacted by self-elected Tyrants, daemonic incursions and a number of heresies. The Emperor destroyed any notion of Religion -bar that of the Omnissiah, of which he declared himself the incarnation of- as Religion, absolute belief in Gods and Demons and Angels and greater powers would inadvertantly lead back to the days of Old Night.
> 
> The Emperor attempted to replicate, or ''jack in'' to the Eldar Webway; to allow humanities expansion to continue throughout the Galaxy and avoid the collapse in infrastructure that would equate should Warp travel be abandoned to deny corruption through the Warp. He made his Astartes ''supposedly'' uncorruptable, he forged their gene's in such ways that they would know no fear, and would not turn their bolters upon fellow innocent humans or Astartes alike, _ever_.
> 
> Yet for all this, Chaos did worm its way back in, and if any utterly ridiculous, mind-blowing idocy like the Emperor planning the Heresy comes to light, I will declare the series as bullshit and pour over the original fluff. Of course, which I don't want to do; _Fulgrim_, _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_, _A Thousand Sons_, _Mechanicum_ and maybe _The First Heretic_; brilliant reads, of which I would loathe to be undone by something as mind-fuckingly rancid as this theory.


I agree.


----------



## AK74Bob

"I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel."

I'm inclined to believe this as well. Originally I thought Big E, reprimanded Lorgar because he kept exterminating planets that would not accept the Emperor as a god, and because he was very slow with bringing planets to compliance. However, in the novel Lorgar is portrayed as an innocent victim.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

AK74Bob said:


> "I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel."
> 
> I'm inclined to believe this as well. Originally I thought Big E, reprimanded Lorgar because he kept exterminating planets that would not accept the Emperor as a god, and because he was very slow with bringing planets to compliance. However, in the novel Lorgar is portrayed as an innocent victim.


it's a plausible argument. one i'm sure Aaron would be happy to weigh in on. Although i'm sure he planned out exactly what he wanted to do for this novel. All we as fans can do is speculate, because the only one who knows the mind of the person who wrote the book, is the author himself. 

CP


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

joechip said:


> I find the idea that humanity will somehow be better off under the boot of Chaos pretty unbelievable.


So do I but then, like you, I know everything that Chaos is now. I'm not just discovering the concept for the first time, nor am I someone who has evidence my species is doomed to a relatively rapid extinction, and nor am I someone convinced that my species needs faith to do anything of value, nor am I a superhuman being obsessed with discovering and promulgating the hidden truth behind the universe that an enigmatic, inhuman dictator has been lying about. 

And I don't get to choose the Word Bearers' beliefs, guy. All of this has been canon for decades.



joechip said:


> I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel.


Hmm. Doesn't sound that likely to me, really. Especially given that Lorgar and the Word Bearers really don't "look better" than anyone throughout the novel. It's not about them looking good and being a winning faction in some bolter porn. That opinion trivialises the whole deal, and comes off as a little silly to me.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

AK74Bob said:


> "I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel."
> 
> I'm inclined to believe this as well. Originally I thought Big E, reprimanded Lorgar because he kept exterminating planets that would not accept the Emperor as a god, and because he was very slow with bringing planets to compliance. However, in the novel Lorgar is portrayed as an innocent victim.


No. The novel portrays Lorgar and his warriors _believing_ themselves to be innocent victims. Crucial difference, there. If the book portrayed them as innocent victims, that would be wrong. But portraying themselves from their point of view, believing that they're unfairly victimised, is the whole point of writing from someone's POV. The people around them (who aren't in their cult) don't see them as innocent victims at all. It's clearly shown in all their actions and dialogue. 

And it's a fairly obvious difference, really. For the duration of the novel, it's obvious they're not as innocent as they claim: first of all we see them punished by the Emperor for something that they don't understand, yet everyone else around them seems to agree with (the Custodes, Guilliman, Magnus, Malcador, the Emperor); they're going against the advice of other primarchs; they're going against the tenets of the Imperium; they're going against the mandate of the Emperor; they're sneaking about behind the Custodes backs... Pretty obvious stuff that gets mentioned and questioned and shown a whole bunch. The novel never makes the case that they're the good guys, just makes the case that sometimes the bad guys have grains of truth in their fall. 

The fact they're damning themselves is clear, and something pretty much everyone has picked up on so far. Me "taking a shit on the Emperor's character so Lorgar looks better" is, frankly, nonsense. They "look bad" so freaking often, why would that one instance make any sense? If I wanted them to look awesome, that would've been easy. I'd have made them more powerful / not made Lorgar the weakest primarch / made Lorgar beat up several other primarchs instead of being shamed before Guilliman, ignored by Ferrus, and lose to Corax / filled the novel with characters that worshipped the Word Bearers as gods / have them bring entire legions of slaves to Istvaan / focus on ultra-powerful fleet that constantly won epic wars rather than a tiny and weak one, etc. I'd have made Lorgar a badass archpriest warlord demigod who loved that his brothers hated him, rather than a soulful and lost visionary with unreliable gifts, who had no desire to be a general like his brothers.

Jesus, even Erebus and Kor Phaeron sneer behind Lorgar's back at one point, when he's defying their little schemes. There's no case at all to say anything was about making Lorgar look good under false pretense.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

joechip said:


> This is wild speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> More wild speculation.


As I said, it was only a theory.

Anyway one of the Primarchs had to be the weakest, at least we now know it was Lorgar.


----------



## World Eater XII

Words_of_Truth said:


> As I said, it was only a theory.
> 
> Anyway one of the Primarchs had to be the weakest, at least we now know it was Lorgar.


When you say weakest, do you mean in terms of warrior spirit or his, lets say "moral fibre"

I believe Lorgar wasnt the weakest generally as his belief in the Big E was pretty hardcore, and in the end it took the big fella himself to crush Lorgar.

If the Emperor went over to Rogal dorn or even Sanguinius and said "look son sort it the fuck out or ill cut your pretty face up" im sure their views would drastically change and they would question themselves and the Big E also , maybe goin the route of chaos.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

World Eater XII said:


> When you say weakest, do you mean in terms of warrior spirit or his, lets say "moral fibre"
> 
> I believe Lorgar wasnt the weakest generally as his belief in the Big E was pretty hardcore, and in the end it took the big fella himself to crush Lorgar.
> 
> If the Emperor went over to Rogal dorn or even Sanguinius and said "look son sort it the fuck out or ill cut your pretty face up" im sure their views would drastically change and they would question themselves and the Big E also , maybe goin the route of chaos.


Weakest as in Martial ability.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

World Eater XII said:


> When you say weakest, do you mean in terms of warrior spirit or his, lets say "moral fibre"
> 
> I believe Lorgar wasnt the weakest generally as his belief in the Big E was pretty hardcore, and in the end it took the big fella himself to crush Lorgar.
> 
> If the Emperor went over to Rogal dorn or even Sanguinius and said "look son sort it the fuck out or ill cut your pretty face up" im sure their views would drastically change and they would question themselves and the Big E also , maybe goin the route of chaos.


Oh, for real. My bad - like WoT said, I only meant physically. Lorgar had a lot of strengths, it's just that his virtues were either useless (or even anathema) to the Imperial Truth and the Emperor's designs, given how he was raised and guided. I certainly don't think less of him from a personal viewpoint because he's not a warrior - in fact, it makes me like him more for a whole host of reasons.

He could've been a valuable, lauded primarch in the Emperor's vision, even with no desire to be a general. Woulda, shoulda, coulda.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

joechip said:


> I find the idea that humanity will somehow be better off under the boot of Chaos pretty unbelievable. Every piece of Black Library fiction that I've read where the Chaos forces manage to take over a planet portrays life under Chaos rule as being worse than death. Now if your saying that Lorgar only "believed" he was helping humanity, not that he was actually right, your statement makes slightly more sense.
> 
> Again, the idea that embracing Chaos would help humanity seems laughable based on, well, every piece of Black Library fiction I've ever read. It doesn't matter if the chaos gods are false gods or not, they're certainly not worthy of worship.


I think it's fairly obvious that if mankind embraced Chaos as a whole, they would undoubtedly be able to withstand the enroaching xenos hordes that will significantly contribute to the inevitable downfall of the Imperium as it currently stands.

It is ultimately subjective though, to some people embracing Chaos would benefit humanity - obviously not in the sense of furthering our current civilisation or enforcing our current morality. But by completely warping both to represent what Chaos represents - our deepest and truest desires, unfettered by social morality and uneffected by civil burdens. But then obviously to others this is unthinkable and embracing Chaos to them would be an aberration.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> So do I but then, like you, I know everything that Chaos is now. I'm not just discovering the concept for the first time, nor am I someone who has evidence my species is doomed to a relatively rapid extinction, and nor am I someone convinced that my species needs faith to do anything of value, nor am I a superhuman being obsessed with discovering and promulgating the hidden truth behind the universe that an enigmatic, inhuman dictator has been lying about.


Aaron said it perfectly.

We (out of universe) who know what Chaos is about, and who live stable lives on a (relatively) stable world. People in-universe would have a completely different outlook on such things, because they are in a completely different situation to the one we are in - and because of the situation we are in, that is why embracing Chaos seems so much of an aberration. Try and put yourself in the mentality of an average downtrodden citizen of the Imperium in-universe though, I imagine Chaos would look a lot more appealing (especially as they don't really know what it would ultimately lead to).



joechip said:


> I know this is going to get my head bitten off but here goes. You're probably over thinking this. Maybe Aaron Dembski-Bowden just decided to take a shit on the Emperor's character so that Lorgar and the Word Bearers would look better. That would be the simplest explanation for the Emperors actions in this novel.


Other Heresy novels portray the Emperor in a similar light, and so far we have no logical explanation for the way in which he acts. Even before the Heresy series, the background read that he mistreated several Primarchs and was an utter dick.

It's not a case of ADB merely portrayed the Emperor as an ass to make Lorgar and the Word Bearers look better (and on a side note, they don't exactly come across as the good guys), the Emperor acting like an ass is in several cases the catalyst for several Primarchs ultimately turning against him - it had to be included in _The First Heretic_.



joechip said:


> Arguing whether or not the Chaos gods are real gods or not is pointless because neither the fans nor the creators can decide on what even constitutes a god in 40k.


Indeed, that is what I meant by asking that rhetorical question.


----------



## space cowboy

I think that the Emperor's plan surely had to be that Lorgar would be the chief promulgator of the Imperial Creed (or whatever you want to call it.) I don't think the goal was to breed a loyal worshiping son, but rather one who would more fervently promote the Imperium and the ideas that there are no gods, it is man's manifest destiny to rule the galaxy, etc.

Instead, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, he wound up being raised in a society with more closely held religious beliefs than anything, and that shaped how Lorgar viewed the universe. I think if Lorgar had landed on, say, Caliban, he would be less tied to ideals of religion and worship and more to those of chivalry, the power of man over his environment, etc. and would have been less likely to view the Emperor as a god and more as a man who forged himself into a person of great power. Then Lorgar's powers of oratory and inspiring loyalty in others could have been turned to the promotion of the Imperium as a secular force where mankind works for the benefit of itself and the elimination of the threats to itself in the galaxy.


----------



## World Eater XII

Fuck it, lets just blame Colchis!


----------



## joechip

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> So do I but then, like you, I know everything that Chaos is now. I'm not just discovering the concept for the first time, nor am I someone who has evidence my species is doomed to a relatively rapid extinction, and nor am I someone convinced that my species needs faith to do anything of value, nor am I a superhuman being obsessed with discovering and promulgating the hidden truth behind the universe that an enigmatic, inhuman dictator has been lying about.
> 
> And I don't get to choose the Word Bearers' beliefs, guy. All of this has been canon for decades.


 Like I said in my post, it makes some sense that Lorgar BELIEVED he was helping humanity. I can see how Lorgar or many people in the 40k universe would make that mistake. I was only disagreeing with the idea that Lorgar actually WAS helping humanity, which apparently isn't what you were saying. 




Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Hmm. Doesn't sound that likely to me, really. Especially given that Lorgar and the Word Bearers really don't "look better" than anyone throughout the novel. It's not about them looking good and being a winning faction in some bolter porn. That opinion trivialises the whole deal, and comes off as a little silly to me.


Then we're still left with the question of why a supposed military genius like the Emperor would do something as militarily stupid as humiliating one of his top generals in front of his men. Maybe you'll get the chance to explain the Emperor's reasoning in this case in a future novel.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think it's fairly obvious that if mankind embraced Chaos as a whole, they would undoubtedly be able to withstand the enroaching xenos hordes that will significantly contribute to the inevitable downfall of the Imperium as it currently stands.
> 
> It is ultimately subjective though, to some people embracing Chaos would benefit humanity - obviously not in the sense of furthering our current civilisation or enforcing our current morality. But by completely warping both to represent what Chaos represents - our deepest and truest desires, unfettered by social morality and uneffected by civil burdens. But then obviously to others this is unthinkable and embracing Chaos to them would be an aberration.


Saying that Chaos represents "our deepest and truest desires" is a bit misleading(even if technically accurate). Don't forget that in Black Library fiction most Chaos worshipers follow their deepest and truest desires by raping, mutilating and killing everyone is sight. Not necessarily in that order. Now imagine an entire society of people like that. It seems to me that the humans are better off under the Imperium's horrible oppression or even wiped out by xenos than living like that, but to each his own. I'm sure there are people who would love to live that way.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aaron said it perfectly.
> 
> We (out of universe) who know what Chaos is about, and who live stable lives on a (relatively) stable world. People in-universe would have a completely different outlook on such things, because they are in a completely different situation to the one we are in - and because of the situation we are in, that is why embracing Chaos seems so much of an aberration. Try and put yourself in the mentality of an average downtrodden citizen of the Imperium in-universe though, I imagine Chaos would look a lot more appealing (especially as they don't really know what it would ultimately lead to).


True. I know that in universe the vast majority of humans don't have anywhere near the amount of knowledge about Chaos as we the out of universe fans. Most of them would probably never hear of the Chaos gods until some cultist approached them. I understand how they could easily be duped and I do try to put myself in their position sometimes.


----------



## Wusword77

joechip said:


> Then we're still left with the question of why a supposed military genius like the Emperor would do something as militarily stupid as humiliating one of his top generals in front of his men. Maybe you'll get the chance to explain the Emperor's reasoning in this case in a future novel.


If the Emperor was truly the "military genius" that he is claimed why would he not finish the Imperial Webway before starting the grand crusade?

Think about it.

The supply line is the life blood of an army. The great enemy to the Imperium was Chaos, and the Emperor knows he pissed off the things that live in the Warp. Why would he not try and get a stable webway portal to have secure, safe transport for his troops? Instead he comes up with the plan of sending his troops flying through to very evil he's trying to fight.

Not exactly the mark of a genius.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Wusword77 said:


> If the Emperor was truly the "military genius" that he is claimed why would he not finish the Imperial Webway before starting the grand crusade?
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> The supply line is the life blood of an army. The great enemy to the Imperium was Chaos, and the Emperor knows he pissed off the things that live in the Warp. Why would he not try and get a stable webway portal to have secure, safe transport for his troops? Instead he comes up with the plan of sending his troops flying through to very evil he's trying to fight.
> 
> Not exactly the mark of a genius.


Because if I remember from _A Thousand Sons_, Magnus informs Ahriman that the Emperor discovered the webway 'decades ago' - therefore only a few decades before the end of the Great Crusade. It simply wasn't an option to utilise the webway prior to beginning the Great Crusade.


----------



## shaantitus

World Eater XII said:


> Fuck it, lets just blame Colchis!


Interestingly World Eater XII has a significant point here. Earlier in this thread there was some speculation as to how Lorgar was won over by chaos. The genocidal purge he instituted on colchis to set up his emperor worshiping religion, purged an existing religion that was correct. The gods they worshiped were extant and it was this irony that pushed him that last little bit. To be told that the religion you had created was wrong and then to find out that the one you purged was in fact right would have had a profound effect on a super human preacher like lorgar.

As a side note. Fantastic book ADB. Although as someone who has been desperately looking for details of the horus heresy since i first got into the warhammer 40k universe in 1989 i may be a little biased. However this book goes a long way to helping with my cravings. Thankyou.:drinks:


----------



## World Eater XII

shaantitus said:


> Interestingly World Eater XII has a significant point here. Earlier in this thread there was some speculation as to how Lorgar was won over by chaos. The genocidal purge he instituted on colchis to set up his emperor worshiping religion, purged an existing religion that was correct. The gods they worshiped were extant and it was this irony that pushed him that last little bit. To be told that the religion you had created was wrong and then to find out that the one you purged was in fact right would have had a profound effect on a super human preacher like lorgar.
> 
> As a side note. Fantastic book ADB. Although as someone who has been desperately looking for details of the horus heresy since i first got into the warhammer 40k universe in 1989 i may be a little biased. However this book goes a long way to helping with my cravings. Thankyou.:drinks:


Nice to see someone take my blunt veiw and expand on it


----------



## forkmaster

I got some questions about the things happening in the story. Since ADB is watching this thread, hopefully he can answer them.

1) The daemon that Ingethel is possessed by, the traits sound very similiar to being of Slaaneshi, is this a Slaanesh daemon?
2) Gal Vorbak gang is also possessed by daemons, them coming out of their shell completely at the end. Do they also serve any particular Chaos God? They kinda sound a bit Khorne with the blood-lust but I could be wrong.
3) Also how does the Chapters work for the WB? I know Ive asked this a couple of times but that is my biggest frustration finding out about. :biggrin::blush:


----------



## Baron Spikey

forkmaster said:


> 1) The daemon that Ingethel is possessed by, the traits sound very similiar to being of Slaaneshi, is this a Slaanesh daemon?


Not sure, but when I read The First Heretic my first thought on reading the part on Cadia and seeing the character Ingethel was 'I'm sure I've heard that name before'.

To Horus Heresy: Collected Visions I scurried, 'lo and behold Pg.263, Ingethel the Ascended- Mr ADB wrote the daemon's appearance exactly as it's presented in HH: CV.

[I went through this entire thread wondering if anyone else had remembered that there is artwork of Ingethel in HH: CV, glad I'm the first :grin:]


----------



## Angel of Blood

Anyone else think Aquillons death was a bit anti-climatic? Seems the novel had been building it up for most of the way, and in the end he just, well dies. Sythran went out brilliantly, but Aquillon was just like, oh


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think it's fairly obvious that if mankind embraced Chaos as a whole, they would undoubtedly be able to withstand the enroaching xenos hordes that will significantly contribute to the inevitable downfall of the Imperium as it currently stands.
> 
> It is ultimately subjective though, to some people embracing Chaos would benefit humanity - obviously not in the sense of furthering our current civilisation or enforcing our current morality. But by completely warping both to represent what Chaos represents - our deepest and truest desires, unfettered by social morality and uneffected by civil burdens. But then obviously to others this is unthinkable and embracing Chaos to them would be an aberration.


True but what would it do to Chaos itself?, a theory I read somewhere, that is actually in 40k, is that if humanity did fully embrace Chaos then a brand new Chaos God would be born, and its birth cries would create a new Eye of Terror that would span the entire Imperium of Man, and it would devour the other Chaos Gods and become the very essence of Chaos. A God that embodies Chaos Undivided.

Plus many things would change for Chaos. Khorne would lose some of the bloodiest battles being fought, the Imperium fights its hardest against traitors and the battles are always ferocious. Nurgle would lose many of his despair-ridden subjects as his followers accept the plagues with joy, and Nurgle's power comes from despair. Tzeentch would inevitably wish to change his grip on humanity, permanently ruling humanity would be against his nature, which in a way would not be possible, ergo he would lose the chance for the one greatest of all changes. Slaanesh is the only one who would lose nothing, perhaps he would even become more powerful and finally reach the other Gods in terms of followers and power.

But thats not to say Chaos wouldn't benefit humanity. The Dark Gods could lead humanity to a new Golden Age unfettered by ignorance and fear. No longer would disease blight humanity, rather it would be embraced and celebrated. Battle would become an affair of true glory and warriors would be celebrated rather than unthanked and unremembered. The pursuit of pleasure would no longer be scorned but become universal and would allow the concept of social morals to disintegrate. And psykers would become accepted by all, as touched by the Gods, and humanity would be able to enter a new understanding of the Warp. Technology would finally be able to further itself and a new age of technology could be created without religion, morals and ethics to govern what is acceptable and what isn't.

The fear of aliens would be a thing of the past. Humanity would be able to match the Orks in sheer bloodlust and perhaps even surpass them in brutality from Khorne's influence. The Eldar would be assailed by the new followers of Slaanesh and would not be able to stand against the combined might of humanity and the Daemons. The Necrons and their plans for the death of the Warp could be stopped with Tzeentch's aid. The Tyranids bio-advantages could be undone with Nurgle's plagues to allow humanity to match them mutation for mutation. And overall the uniting of the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, perhaps even the reforming of the original Legions, would usher in a new military might not seen since the Horus Heresy. And with the Daemons aiding humanity rather than fighting them the combined might of Chaos could turn the galaxy red with blood.

But their is the possibility that humanity could be the death of Chaos. It was prophecised in _Legion_ that if humanity and Chaos joined the destructive nature of humans and their weight of numbers would cause their destruction, and the Chaos Gods so heavily invested in them would perish alongside them, ensuring the demise of Chaos and the calming of the Warp. Though it was meant to be Horus that ushered this destruction into existence it may still be feesible for it to happen, but rather than Horus' denied noble nature turning Chaos against itself it would be the nature of Chaos that inevitably turns against itself that causes its permanent destruction.




Baron Spikey said:


> Not sure, but when I read _The First Heretic_ my first thought on reading the part on Cadia and seeing the character Ingethel was 'I'm sure I've heard that name before'.
> 
> To Horus Heresy: Collected Visions I scurried, 'lo and behold Pg.263, Ingethel the Ascended- Mr ADB wrote the daemon's appearance exactly as it's presented in HH: CV.
> 
> [I went through this entire thread wondering if anyone else had remembered that there is artwork of Ingethel in HH: CV, glad I'm the first :grin:]


I remembered Ingethel the Ascended the second I saw the name in the Dramatis Personae of TFH.

I was fairly surprised and somewhat creeped out by the fact that the serpentine Daemon we saw in HH Collection Visions used to be a woman!

Also I am also curious as to Ingethel's nature. The ritual they undertook didn't seem like possession, it seemed more like an ascension. I think that Ingethel is a Daemon Prince of some type, though im not totally sure. Chaos is chaotic after all, she could have become anything.


----------



## Zooey72

Ok, I did not manage to go through all 14 pages of responses... but I think that some of you are missing some (what I think) are fundamental truths about what the emp was trying to do.

For purposes of what I am going to post, lets say the emp. did not plan the whole heresy to start with (which I think he did).

Was humanity lied to by the emperor about the existance of chaos, gods, the warp, the nature of the galaxy - yes. He lied big time. The emperor knew the truth from the start, and saw humanity rise and fall ever since we came out of caves. He knew what to expect from man, what knowledge he could/could not handle - and some knowledge is best left forgotten... and esp. never told to a species that would not know how to handle that knowledge. Think of it this way, if you are the parent of an exceptionly stupid and agressive child are you going to tell them where the gun is in the house... much less show him how to use it?

The emperor and magnus had different ideas on how to handle humanity. Magnus wanted to enlighten and trust the ADH child (humanity) how to use the gun... and that did not work out so well. Magnus himself could not even control it. The emperor on the other hand took the road (that has not been proven yet to be the wrong road) to keep that knowledge from humanity in the hopes that a secular truth would drain the power of the warp and render the biggest threat to humanit inert. Hence why the webway was so important. Not only does humanity not feed the warp through secularism - it does not even need to travel in it any more. In all honesty I think he made the right decision. His lack of fighting chaos directly by ordering astartes to kill daemons and what not wounded the powers more than anything else. The chaos powers were starving to death from the emperors doctrines. That is why they hated him so much and took such lengths to bring him down. Had the emp. succeeded in the great crusade and killed all the xenos and inhabbited the galaxy with secular humans he would have effectively destroyed chaos (or at least brought it down to such a level that the gods would not nearly have the power that they once had).

Was the emps. vision for the galaxy a great paradice, no. But to me it is the lesser of 2 evils. You can either live during the inquisition or in a concentration camp. I think almost everyone would agree the inquistion is the better choice.


From the emps. actions conducting the great crusade and starving the chaos powers it seems clear to me that he was waging a war against them by keeping humanity ignorant. Why kill races (like the eldar) or parts of humanity that knew of chaos but hated it... because the knowledge of chaos could spread to his secular empire and be like a cancer if they were allowed to exist. Even planets that had no clue of chaos but wanted to maintain their freedom - nope, has to go - the threat of them not being secular and falling to chaos is too great.

At first I thought that the emps goal was to become the 5th god by the worship he now recieves in the 40k universe. I am sure it floods the warp. The game mech. from the table top suggest that with the saints and what not (don't they seem like greater daemons to you?). But going off of fact he drove 4 chaos gods out of horus (even though he held back during most of the fight) suggests another reason.

I don't know the answer to it, but I can't wait for the next book :grin:


----------



## Zooey72

Ok, I did not manage to go through all 14 pages of responses... but I think that some of you are missing some (what I think) are fundamental truths about what the emp was trying to do.

For purposes of what I am going to post, lets say the emp. did not plan the whole heresy to start with (which I think he did).

Was humanity lied to by the emperor about the existance of chaos, gods, the warp, the nature of the galaxy - yes. He lied big time. The emperor knew the truth from the start, and saw humanity rise and fall ever since we came out of caves. He knew what to expect from man, what knowledge he could/could not handle - and some knowledge is best left forgotten... and esp. never told to a species that would not know how to handle that knowledge. Think of it this way, if you are the parent of an exceptionly stupid and agressive child are you going to tell them where the gun is in the house... much less show him how to use it?

The emperor and magnus had different ideas on how to handle humanity. Magnus wanted to enlighten and trust the ADH child (humanity) how to use the gun... and that did not work out so well. Magnus himself could not even control it. The emperor on the other hand took the road (that has not been proven yet to be the wrong road) to keep that knowledge from humanity in the hopes that a secular truth would drain the power of the warp and render the biggest threat to humanit inert. Hence why the webway was so important. Not only does humanity not feed the warp through secularism - it does not even need to travel in it any more. In all honesty I think he made the right decision. His lack of fighting chaos directly by ordering astartes to kill daemons and what not wounded the powers more than anything else. The chaos powers were starving to death from the emperors doctrines. That is why they hated him so much and took such lengths to bring him down. Had the emp. succeeded in the great crusade and killed all the xenos and inhabbited the galaxy with secular humans he would have effectively destroyed chaos (or at least brought it down to such a level that the gods would not nearly have the power that they once had).

Was the emps. vision for the galaxy a great paradice, no. But to me it is the lesser of 2 evils. You can either live during the inquisition or in a concentration camp. I think almost everyone would agree the inquistion is the better choice.


From the emps. actions conducting the great crusade and starving the chaos powers it seems clear to me that he was waging a war against them by keeping humanity ignorant. Why kill races (like the eldar) or parts of humanity that knew of chaos but hated it... because the knowledge of chaos could spread to his secular empire and be like a cancer if they were allowed to exist. Even planets that had no clue of chaos but wanted to maintain their freedom - nope, has to go - the threat of them not being secular and falling to chaos is too great.

At first I thought that the emps goal was to become the 5th god by the worship he now recieves in the 40k universe. I am sure it floods the warp. The game mech. from the table top suggest that with the saints and what not (don't they seem like greater daemons to you?). But going off of fact he drove 4 chaos gods out of horus (even though he held back during most of the fight) suggests another reason.

I don't know the answer to it, but I can't wait for the next book :grin:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> Not sure, but when I read The First Heretic my first thought on reading the part on Cadia and seeing the character Ingethel was 'I'm sure I've heard that name before'.
> 
> To Horus Heresy: Collected Visions I scurried, 'lo and behold Pg.263, Ingethel the Ascended- Mr ADB wrote the daemon's appearance exactly as it's presented in HH: CV.
> 
> [I went through this entire thread wondering if anyone else had remembered that there is artwork of Ingethel in HH: CV, glad I'm the first :grin:]


You div! We've known about that for ages, long before it was released (mentioned on ADB's blog IIRC). The Red Angel featured in the same image (_Blades of the Traitor_) will likely feature in Swallow's _Fear to Tread_. Your slacking Baron. 



Lord of the Night said:


> True but what would it do to Chaos itself?, a theory I read somewhere, that is actually in 40k, is that if humanity did fully embrace Chaos then a brand new Chaos God would be born, and its birth cries would create a new Eye of Terror that would span the entire Imperium of Man, and it would devour the other Chaos Gods and become the very essence of Chaos.


That would be unlikely. Slaanesh was born directly of the depravity and excess of the ancient Eldar Empire. The extreme emotions, thoughts and actions reflected in the warp coalesced until Slaanesh was born. In regards to humanity, the four most prominent emotions displayed by mankind are already covered by the chaos gods. There would be no need or reason for another chaos god to emerge.



Lord of the Night said:


> A God that embodies Chaos Undivided.


Chaos undivided has always been a subject of controversy. Firstly though, in direct reply to your point - why would a god that embodies chaos undivided (which would be utterly contradictory in itself) be born of humanity? 

As for the topic of chaos undivided itself, some suggest it is already an entity in and of itself; a collection and representation of the entire chaos pantheon. Others suggest it is merely a label used to refer chaos in its entirety. Others say it doesn't exist. Chaos undivided isn't undoubtedly defined, and it seems in itself to be an enigma.



Lord of the Night said:


> Plus many things would change for Chaos. Khorne would lose some of the bloodiest battles being fought, the Imperium fights its hardest against traitors and the battles are always ferocious.


I disagree. With the entire human race irreversibly trapped in and devolved further down into what I like to call 'The Circle' - Khorne would dominate vast swathes of the species with his bloodthirsty tendencies, wars would be fought across the entire galaxy based on his whims and the blood would literally flow in rivers.

What I mean by the cirlce is the cycle that bonds chaos and mortals together. Mortals are ultimately the cause of the chaos gods. As the gods grow in power and influence they reach into the souls and dreams of mortals to demand worship and champion the spread of their particular representative emotion. Which in turn further empowers the gods who spread their claws further across the universe to once again demand worship and promote their particular emotions. Et Cetera.



Lord of the Night said:


> Nurgle would lose many of his despair-ridden subjects as his followers accept the plagues with joy, and Nurgle's power comes from despair.


Humanity wouldn't suddenly be free from despair if devoted to chaos. If anything I feel that it would be in abundance.



Lord of the Night said:


> Tzeentch would inevitably wish to change his grip on humanity, permanently ruling humanity would be against his nature, which in a way would not be possible, ergo he would lose the chance for the one greatest of all changes.


Humanity being devoted to chaos wouldn't reduce the potential for change in it's most basic and wild form across the universe.



Lord of the Night said:


> Slaanesh is the only one who would lose nothing, perhaps he would even become more powerful and finally reach the other Gods in terms of followers and power.


I personally think all the chaos gods would gain substantially if humanity embraced the empyrean. The cirlce would be utterly complete.

And I know you've probably heard me say this before, but Slaanesh is not the weakest chaos god.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You div! We've known about that for ages, long before it was released (mentioned on ADB's blog IIRC). The Red Angel featured in the same image (_Blades of the Traitor_) will likely feature in Swallow's _Fear to Tread_. Your slacking Baron.


Aw  

Me was so excited :blush:


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You div! We've known about that for ages, long before it was released (mentioned on ADB's blog IIRC). The Red Angel featured in the same image (_Blades of the Traitor_) will likely feature in Swallow's _Fear to Tread_. Your slacking Baron.


Looking forward to that. I think its Chapter Master Raldoron returned from the dead.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That would be unlikely. Slaanesh was born directly of the depravity and excess of the ancient Eldar Empire. The extreme emotions, thoughts and actions reflected in the warp coalesced until Slaanesh was born. In regards to humanity, the four most prominent emotions displayed by mankind are already covered by the chaos gods. There would be no need or reason for another chaos god to emerge.
> 
> Chaos undivided has always been a subject of controversy. Firstly though, in direct reply to your point - why would a god that embodies chaos undivided (which would be utterly contradictory in itself) be born of humanity?
> 
> As for the topic of chaos undivided itself, some suggest it is already an entity in and of itself; a collection and representation of the entire chaos pantheon. Others suggest it is merely a label used to refer chaos in its entirety. Others say it doesn't exist. Chaos undivided isn't undoubtedly defined, and it seems in itself to be an enigma.


A fair point but it depends on which of those concepts Chaos Undivided truly is. The majority of Chaos followers do worship the Dark Pantheon rather than an individual Dark God, my theory is that humanity uniting with Chaos would create such an influx of believers in Chaos Undivided that it may be possible for a new God embodying their beliefs of all four Chaos Gods united as one to be born. A God of Blood, Plague, Lust and Change. The ultimate Chaos God. And a God of this magnitude could shatter half the galaxy with its birth screams.

Though if the point made in _The First Heretic_ is true about Slaanesh's birth, that its cries were out of sadness and rage that its followers abandoned it out of fear and ignorance, theoretically this new 5th God may be born harmlessly since its followers would be truly devoted to Chaos and would not fear its birth, they would celebrate it.

Or they could bring back Malal... HEAR THAT BLACK LIBRARY AND GAMES WORKSHOP?!. BRING BACK MALAL!!.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree. With the entire human race irreversibly trapped in and devolved further down into what I like to call 'The Circle' - Khorne would dominate vast swathes of the species with his bloodthirsty tendencies, wars would be fought across the entire galaxy based on his whims and the blood would literally flow in rivers.
> 
> What I mean by the cirlce is the cycle that bonds chaos and mortals together. Mortals are ultimately the cause of the chaos gods. As the gods grow in power and influence they reach into the souls and dreams of mortals to demand worship and champion the spread of their particular representative emotion. Which in turn further empowers the gods who spread their claws further across the universe to once again demand worship and promote their particular emotions. Et Cetera.


Hm. Ill cede on this one, your right.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Humanity wouldn't suddenly be free from despair if devoted to chaos. If anything I feel that it would be in abundance.


Not in total terms. Many would embrace Nurgle and lose their despair, and most Chaos followers dont wallow in despair, they are insane and joyous. Thus it would be far harder to create despair in humanity, and Nurgle would be forced to turn to other sources such as the Tau or the other lesser races, since Orks, Necrons and Tyranids don't really feel despair, and the Eldar belong to Slaanesh.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Humanity being devoted to chaos wouldn't reduce the potential for change in it's most basic and wild form across the universe.


But it would create a permanent place for Tzeentch as one of the four rulers of humanity, and that would never change. And that in itself is an anti-thesis to the Shaper of Fate's own beliefs and design. Change in its most basic form would continue but Tzeentch himself would have created an unchangeable fact, and an unchangeable fact will inevitably lead to decay. Thus he would have aided Nurgle indirectly.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I personally think all the chaos gods would gain substantially if humanity embraced the empyrean. The circle would be utterly complete.
> 
> And I know you've probably heard me say this before, but Slaanesh is not the weakest chaos god.


I know, I meant Slaanesh would gain power in terms of followers and territory. Slaanesh has the least followers of all the Chaos Gods, his own Chaos Space Marines are the numerically weakest Legion and have absolutely no unity to make up for it. Slaanesh would benefit in that he would gain millions of new followers and even more Space Marines to join his cause, as Slaanesh and Khorne are the most appealing to the warrior-angels known as Astartes since Khorne offers them what they were born for, eternal warfare. And Slaanesh offers them a new world of experiences they could never have dreamed of.


----------



## Cambrius

"...As to the Emperor, I get the very distinct impression that he knows exactly what he's doing in spreading the Imperial Truth with his crusade. He made contact and apparently struck some kind of deal with powerful entities in the warp to facilitate the creation of the primarchs. He reneged on that deal, probably once he came to more fully understand the nature of those entities, and so the warp gods are pissed. Maybe rightfully so. Given that the nature of the warp is a direct manifestation of all mortal mental, emotional, and psychic emanations, and knowing that the entities of the warp seem to gain access to the galaxy through ritual and sacrifice as a byproduct of devotion and worship, it makes sense to me that the Emperor would want to put an end to religion. However benevolent the scriptures and benign the intentions, they always seem to end up paving the road to hell and the warp. Yes, the Emperor knows there are "gods", Lorgar. He wants to stop humanity's faith in them because he's all to aware of humanity's inherent and seemingly unavoidable penchant for self-destruction and corruption.

I also think it's incredibly ironic that the Emperor demands the Imperium not worship him or anyone else, and that those who do are heretics. Somehow, over ten millenia, this is flipped on its head. Lorgar - damned to Chaos - survives through his Lectitio Divinitatus, which becomes the foundation for the Imperial cult. The first disciple is also the first heretic. Kinda cool, I think."

I posted that in another thread, but thought it worked here too. 

I have to wonder if CP is jesting about the Emperor being a silly bitch. By all accounts, he's thousands of years old. Surely that long experience matures one. By the same token, would the Emperor really have a paternal instinct towards his son as we recognise it? We mere mortals cherish and dote on our wee squashlings in part because they represent a sort of immortailty for us. The Emperor would be beyond such petty psychological hauntings, no?

A couple of people have put forth the idea, and as overly simplistic as it might sound, I can't shake the question. These revelations about universal truth and the Emperor have all been presented by entities of the warp. How do we know they aren't simply lying, crafting the story and then "revealing" it to our credulous protagonists?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lord of the Night said:


> Looking forward to that. I think its Chapter Master Raldoron returned from the dead.


Returned from the dead? When does he die?


----------



## Lord of the Night

He died in _Horus Rising_. He led the Blood Angels expedition to One-Forty-Twenty or Murder as they called it before they were annihilated.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Cambrius said:


> I have to wonder if CP is jesting about the Emperor being a silly bitch. By all accounts, he's thousands of years old. Surely that long experience matures one. By the same token, would the Emperor really have a paternal instinct towards his son as we recognise it? We mere mortals cherish and dote on our wee squashlings in part because they represent a sort of immortailty for us. The Emperor would be beyond such petty psychological hauntings, no?
> 
> A couple of people have put forth the idea, and as overly simplistic as it might sound, I can't shake the question. These revelations about universal truth and the Emperor have all been presented by entities of the warp. How do we know they aren't simply lying, crafting the story and then "revealing" it to our credulous protagonists?


Really it boils down to this. He's a silly bitch. he really is...

It's a overly simplistic way of saying that he was an improper parent. His overly stoic and ridiculously combative nature made him incapable of understanding the problems and listening to the concerns of his more emotionally unstable sons. Had he just been there for them... as a shoulder to cry on, perhaps even an outing every once and a while. Taken them to the park, pushed them on the swing. Things would have been different. He brought this all on himself. 

CP


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lord of the Night said:


> He died in _Horus Rising_. He led the Blood Angels expedition to One-Forty-Twenty or Murder as they called it before they were annihilated.


Captain Thoros led the Blood Angels onto Murder where he was killed. Raldoron is still alive as of Istvaan V, judging by what Argel Tal says when talking about Sevatar


----------



## Cambrius

Commissar Ploss said:


> Really it boils down to this. He's a silly bitch. he really is...
> 
> It's a overly simplistic way of saying that he was an improper parent. His overly stoic and ridiculously combative nature made him incapable of understanding the problems and listening to the concerns of his more emotionally unstable sons. Had he just been there for them... as a shoulder to cry on, perhaps even an outing every once and a while. Taken them to the park, pushed them on the swing. Things would have been different. He brought this all on himself.
> 
> CP


In many portrayals of immortal beings or even those just incredibly long-lived, there's a common theme of disconnection from the rest of humanity. Probably something to do with our painfully short lives being a defining characteristic. So... maybe the Emperor is just too old to be having kids. Although, he did create them in his own image and they all share that same kind of disconnection....


----------



## forkmaster

On page 307. ADB begins to despict several of the Primarchs as they crashland. I imagine the first 2 being the Lion and Russ, but do you know who everyone else are?


----------



## FORTHELION

All the fallen capsules are the traitor primarchs. though when you re read it you will find there is 10. With the lion being the first.
Here is the list which also includes the planets.

1 lion and caliban
2 fulgrim chemos
3 perturabo olympia (note not russ and fenris)
4 Curze Nostramo
5 Angron unknown planet name
6 Mortarion Barbaros
7 Magnus Prospero
8 Horus Cthonia
9 Lorgar Colchis
10 Alpharius/Omegon Unknow planet name

Also note the order in which they are told in the book also is the order that the Traitor legions are listed. With exception of the Dark Angels all others fall into this category.

So the Chaos Gods were showing Argel Tal the primarchs they expected to fall to chaos. Mr Boden seems to be trying to expand on the debate wheter the lion was or wasnt a traitor as clearly the chaos gods expected him to fall.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Yeah, to back up what _FORTHELION_ said, here is a direct quote from Aaron:



ADB said:


> For kicks, here's the order the pods come down:
> 
> The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place.
> 
> Basically, the Traitor Primarchs - in Legion order - and the Lion as well, perhaps reflecting the lore that he may or may not have been wavering in his loyalties, at least in the eyes of the Chaos Gods.





ADB said:


> In regards to ther Lions pod alongside the other traitor pods in the first heretic:
> 
> I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.
> 
> However, I don't subscribe to the notion that the Lion was tainted (or a traitor) himself. As he grew up, he was everything the Emperor needed him to be, sure. This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong.
> 
> Of all the primarchs, I think the Lion needs to be credited with an almost unbelievable amount of willpower, even moreso than most of his brothers. He strikes me as one of the ones that Chaos could've dug their talons into very easily, but he apparently never suffered their touch at all.
> 
> Which is pretty darn cool.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I was so glad when i read that before, ADB is on side with us Lion is a loyalist types


----------



## Commissar Ploss

ADB said:


> Of all the primarchs, I think the Lion needs to be credited with an almost unbelievable amount of willpower, even moreso than most of his brothers. He strikes me as one of the ones that Chaos could've dug their talons into very easily, but he apparently never suffered their touch at all.
> 
> Which is pretty darn cool.


are you kidding me!? that pussy locked himself away in a boulder for gods sake! willpower my ass. he's a chicken...  "come out and conquer the galaxy like a maaaaannn!!!"

CP


----------



## Words_of_Truth

He kind of did the opposite to what Lorgar did, instead of giving into his father figure he went against him.


----------



## Imperators Warden

*Awesome book, finished it in a night.*

Ok, first off I loved the book. It's up there with FOTE, TS, and HR for me.


Favorite thing of all was the hitherto unseen primarchs. Even though they had relatively short page time. I enjoyed their efficiently played parts which gave some insight to both of them. I liked Pertuarbos especially, it seemed to me that he was reluctant to partake of this insanity.But this is probably because I am an IF fan; I want to know more about this most hated foe. Curze was also a highlight with his derision of Lorgars Corruption. Only one thing kind of bother me though; Logars fall. 

I followed the reasoning for Lorgars fall. But, I found it hard to swallow. After the events of Monarchia I think he says something is not worth worshiping simply because it is divine. Then he goes to following the pantheon; simply because they exist. As he puts it because it is the truth. I got past that by laying the blame squarely on Erebus and Kor Phaerons shoulders.His one flaw was being too trusting, correct? In fact doesn't Raum insult him? Saying that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were leading him around by the nose. I am falling back on the future Imperial axiom , "Chaos is a lie." He falls because he is being lied to; by both sides. 

As for Argel Tal, I am thinking there is going to be a redemption story there. After all, those collected pennances are going to take there toll. But then again I think Little Horus might lower the shields on the Vengeful Spirit.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I think Argel Tal is far too gone for redemption, he now shares his body with a deamon and seems to embrace it now more than at first, he's more damned than most of the other traitors combined, along with the rest of the Gal Vorbak.

I'm almost certain we will see Little Horus try and redeem himself though.

I did love the fight with Corax though, his fighting style was brilliant, using short bursts of his jet pack to dodge blows, get himself back on his feet, and just the way he owned Lorgar in general. Kurze was good to see aswell, especially how he and Sevetar looked down on the Word Bearers and Lorgar so much, disgusted with their corruption.

But did no one else find it massively anticlimactic how Aquillon died?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> I think Argel Tal is far too gone for redemption, he now shares his body with a deamon and seems to embrace it now more than at first, he's more damned than most of the other traitors combined, along with the rest of the Gal Vorbak.


I agree. Not that he would seek 'redemption' anyway. He leads the ambush at Calth along with Kor Phaeron and dies at somepoint during the Heresy.



Angel of Blood said:


> But did no one else find it massively anticlimactic how Aquillon died?


I've actually forgot how he was killed! It was on the surface of Isstvan V after the death of Cyrene right?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Aye, he literally just kills one of the Gal Vorbak and as he does it Argel Tal rips of his head, and that's it. After all that sparring in the practice cages with Aquillon winning quickly everytime but one, he just dies like that, without ever actually dueling him for real. Ends up being Sythran who gets the Crowning Moment of Awsome when he throws his guardian spear at Xaphen, one shot killing him


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Angel of Blood said:


> Aye, he literally just kills one of the Gal Vorbak and as he does it Argel Tal rips of his head, and that's it. After all that sparring in the practice cages with Aquillon winning quickly everytime but one, he just dies like that, without ever actually dueling him for real. Ends up being Sythran who gets the Crowning Moment of Awsome when he throws his guardian spear at Xaphen, one shot killing him


Even the dude that got a pole shoved up his ass went out with a bigger bang compared to Aquillon.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> Aye, he literally just kills one of the Gal Vorbak and as he does it Argel Tal rips of his head, and that's it. After all that sparring in the practice cages with Aquillon winning quickly everytime but one, he just dies like that, without ever actually dueling him for real.


Realities of war eh.

Suppose what it does portray though is the triumph of the daemonic and the validation of their god-given powers. Maybe?


----------



## Imperators Warden

*Corax is a BA*

Corax was the biggest badass of the book. The relentless slaughter he laid on the chosen sons was unforgettable. I think if he hadn't been fighting as long as he had, he would have fought Curze. 

I too found that the ending of the Custodes was anti climatic. I could understand one dying to stupid amounts of Heavy Bolter Fire. But, even if the WB were possessed I have a hard time seeing them take on 3 custodes; especially so easily. 

Argel Tals got a good death in store for him then. At the hands of Sanguinius.

I was perusing the earlier posts and thought I would weigh in. Something smacks wrong with the whole Emp making a deal with the big 4. Granted I am not the author, but I choose to believe the Emperor created his sons without their aid. Now did they influence them, of course. Being ripped from your womb, and thrown through the galaxy to strange worlds will do that to you. Especially, when your Father isn't there to protect you. 

I also have a hard time believing, as someone said, that he was ignorant of the chaos powers. You are talking about the being that whooped a Ctans ass. Then, preceded to blast it into atoms across a cavern; on another planet. All so that it would inspire a religion, that would provide him with war material hundreds of years later. 

Argel Tals got a good death in store for him then. At the hands of Sanguinius.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Perhaps, buts it was just too built up, would be like Fulgrim and Ferrus running up to each other and Fulgrim decapitating Ferrus with his first blow, Russ punching Magnus in the face and thats it. Lokena dn Torgaddon being gunned down by Abaddon and Aximand the moment they entered etc etc. It's literally one of the few things i didn't like about the novel

Edit: Where does it say Sanguinius will kille Argel Tal? With regards to the Emperor, was it ever confirmed that is what actually happened, or ws it the Chaos gods showing them false or twisted events


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I would of liked Argel Tal to get owned by Sigismund during the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. Is it certain he'll be going to Calth?


----------



## Imperators Warden

*Lies*

I could see the pernicious Raum speaking in half truths; as Daemons are wont to do. Remember "he would die in the shadow of wings." But then again Sigimund mercing him up would bring me nothing but pleasure. 

As for what the Daemon showed them being true. It seems a lot of people believe it to be true. As far as what I saw in the earlier posts. I choose to believe its a lie.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is it certain he'll be going to Calth?


Yep, think so.


----------



## FORTHELION

@ cote where did you find that bit about the lion from ADB.
I never seen that before.


----------



## seb2351

Imperators Warden said:


> I was perusing the earlier posts and thought I would weigh in. Something smacks wrong with the whole Emp making a deal with the big 4. Granted I am not the author, but I choose to believe the Emperor created his sons without their aid. Now did they influence them, of course. Being ripped from your womb, and thrown through the galaxy to strange worlds will do that to you. Especially, when your Father isn't there to protect you.
> 
> I also have a hard time believing, as someone said, that he was ignorant of the chaos powers. You are talking about the being that whooped a Ctans ass. Then, preceded to blast it into atoms across a cavern; on another planet. All so that it would inspire a religion, that would provide him with war material hundreds of years later.
> .


I agree with your sentiments, and still refuse to believe that The Emperor, he of eternal wisdom, would not be able to perform what is in basic terms manipulation of DNA. I mean, even today we can organs, manipulate genes and such.
I place very little stock in the words of a demon, a minion of chaos. I still reckon that the Emperor was soley responsible for the creation of the Primarchs, and that the purpose of the Geller Fields was to prevent the corruption by chaos, and to prevent the very thing that occured- The primachs being cast across by Chaos.

I think the Emperor saw what would happen if he told the Imperium of Man about chaos, that they would fall too easily before the Great Crusade was complete. It is far easy to mop up rebellions and cults AFTER conquerering a galaxy (And now we have a role for Space Marines Post Crusade), then to say at the begining, "look there are Gods of power, but dont worship them". Otherwise they will have to fight the Crusade while diverting resources inwards to planets that should instead of rebellingand worshipping chaos be providing resources for the Great Crusade.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

FORTHELION said:


> @ cote where did you find that bit about the lion from ADB.
> I never seen that before.


Ask the Authors I believe it was.



seb2351 said:


> I agree with your sentiments, and still refuse to believe that The Emperor, he of eternal wisdom, would not be able to perform what is in basic terms manipulation of DNA. I mean, even today we can organs, manipulate genes and such.


I think the entire point though is that the Primarchs are not merely the result of DNA manipulation. They are a cross between highly advanced genetical technology and the infusion of warp energy. The galaxy has literally never seen such a powerful breed of warrior, it only makes sense that the Emperor sought the blessing/power/influence of the most powerful warp entities to aid in their creation.

If you choose to believe they are solely the result of the Emperor's science though that is fine. 

But as the Heresy series continues, more and more novels are putting stock into the theory that the chaos gods had a hand in their creation, albeit mostly from the perspective of a daemon - but then who else would know?

I believe it was _False Gods_ (IIRC) that introduced the concept, _The First Heretic_ referred to the chaos gods as the father(s) of the Primarchs just as much as the Emperor was. But the real canker in the works was _A Thousand Sons_, which informed us from Magnus' perspective. Magnus directly knew that the Emperor had made such bargains with the chaos gods, and was even fearful of them to an extent. This (at least in my mind) validates the theory more than anything (solely because it can't really be blamed on the fickleness of a daemon). Of course though im not saying you are wrong to believe they were created solely by the Emperor, just that the lore seems to be increasingly pointing in the opposite direction.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

FORTHELION said:


> @ cote where did you find that bit about the lion from ADB.
> I never seen that before.


Behold!

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=214221&view=findpost&p=2549955

There was a 2-page Dark Angel / Horus Heresy discussion going on there, for... obvious reasons.


----------



## Thyr

I'm really getting depressed here. Still didn't get my copy of TFH even though I ordered early.  Of course I blame Mr. ADB for writing a book that everybody and their goldfish wants to read. Heh.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Behold!
> 
> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=214221&view=findpost&p=2549955
> 
> There was a 2-page Dark Angel / Horus Heresy discussion going on there, for... obvious reasons.


as much as i dislike the fact you are linking other forums... I'll let it slide this time, since that is indeed where it started...

and yet you basically quoted yourself word for word a few posts back... sad

CP


----------



## Thyr

Commissar Ploss said:


> as much as i dislike the fact you are linking other forums... I'll let it slide this time, since that is indeed where it started...
> 
> and yet you basically quoted yourself word for word a few posts back... sad
> 
> CP


You mean I've cut open my pillow for nothing? There will be no tarring and feathering?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

On a side note, no pet cruelty Aaron, you leave loken alone  Glad you're trying to do a World Eater's novel, I've just started recently collecting a World Eater's army and I'm hoping you'll add a a face to the berserk nature of the legion


----------



## seb2351

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ask the Authors I believe it was.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the entire point though is that the Primarchs are not merely the result of DNA manipulation. They are a cross between highly advanced genetical technology and the infusion of warp energy. The galaxy has literally never seen such a powerful breed of warrior, it only makes sense that the Emperor sought the blessing/power/influence of the most powerful warp entities to aid in their creation.
> 
> If you choose to believe they are solely the result of the Emperor's science though that is fine.
> 
> But as the Heresy series continues, more and more novels are putting stock into the theory that the chaos gods had a hand in their creation, albeit mostly from the perspective of a daemon - but then who else would know?
> 
> I believe it was _False Gods_ (IIRC) that introduced the concept, _The First Heretic_ referred to the chaos gods as the father(s) of the Primarchs just as much as the Emperor was. But the real canker in the works was _A Thousand Sons_, which informed us from Magnus' perspective. Magnus directly knew that the Emperor had made such bargains with the chaos gods, and was even fearful of them to an extent. This (at least in my mind) validates the theory more than anything (solely because it can't really be blamed on the fickleness of a daemon). Of course though im not saying you are wrong to believe they were created solely by the Emperor, just that the lore seems to be increasingly pointing in the opposite direction.


Thanks for respecting my beliefs, maybe I am just too pro-Imperial to see any other option despite the proof being in front of me. What a diligent Imperial citizen I would make :grin:.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The book on the world eaters u mentioned will it be based on before the heresy?


----------



## Angel of Blood

probably the usual thing, before and up to the heresy


----------



## Imperators Warden

*First I read.*



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ask the Authors I believe it was.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the entire point though is that the Primarchs are not merely the result of DNA manipulation. They are a cross between highly advanced genetical technology and the infusion of warp energy. The galaxy has literally never seen such a powerful breed of warrior, it only makes sense that the Emperor sought the blessing/power/influence of the most powerful warp entities to aid in their creation.
> 
> If you choose to believe they are solely the result of the Emperor's science though that is fine.
> 
> But as the Heresy series continues, more and more novels are putting stock into the theory that the chaos gods had a hand in their creation, albeit mostly from the perspective of a daemon - but then who else would know?
> 
> I believe it was _False Gods_ (IIRC) that introduced the concept, _The First Heretic_ referred to the chaos gods as the father(s) of the Primarchs just as much as the Emperor was. But the real canker in the works was _A Thousand Sons_, which informed us from Magnus' perspective. Magnus directly knew that the Emperor had made such bargains with the chaos gods, and was even fearful of them to an extent. This (at least in my mind) validates the theory more than anything (solely because it can't really be blamed on the fickleness of a daemon). Of course though im not saying you are wrong to believe they were created solely by the Emperor, just that the lore seems to be increasingly pointing in the opposite direction.



The earliest I've read with a similar concept is Angels of Darkness. Where the old Terran Dark Angel is spilling the beans; and his own theories. Again, why would the Emperor need the chaos gods? He himself is the greatest known psyker in the universe at this point. In Realm of Chaos IIRC it describes the final battle; and I think it mentions that the big 4 retreat from Horus. Mainly because they don't want to get wounded by the big Es attack. If this is the case I find them being INITIAL fathers pretty suspect. Now could some have been corrupted, sure.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Imperators Warden said:


> The earliest I've read with a similar concept is Angels of Darkness. Where the old Terran Dark Angel is spilling the beans; and his own theories. Again, why would the Emperor need the chaos gods? He himself is the greatest known psyker in the universe at this point. In Realm of Chaos IIRC it describes the final battle; and I think it mentions that the big 4 retreat from Horus. Mainly because they don't want to get wounded by the big Es attack. If this is the case I find them being INITIAL fathers pretty suspect. Now could some have been corrupted, sure.


Sure, the Emperor is the greatest known psyker in the universe, but ultimately he pales in comparison to the Four. Even _A Thousand Sons_ notes that the Emperor 'dared not face one'.

The whole retreating from Horus when the Emperor struck him with all his psychic might can easily be rationalised in other ways than the Emperor threatened to destroy them (which is obviously absurd). Perhaps their corruption of Horus was forced out by the Emperor's psychic might? Perhaps the chaos gods were unwilling to risk large amounts of their energy to sustain Horus in the face of the Emperor's sudden onslaught, because doing so would leave them vulnerable in the Great Game? 

After all they achieved their objective of incapacitating the Emperor and removing the threat he posed, why bother attempting to sustain Horus, especially if it was going to cost a significant amount of energy to do so.


----------



## World Eater XII

The great game is of more importance


----------



## MuSigma

The First Heretic was a great read, the HH series is getting better by every book.
Just a few comments;
Lorgar was wrong to worship the Emperor, even though his worlds were the most compliant and happy, ah well nevermind. It still got my goat that they destroyed a city (or all of of them on the planet) and the E blew up all his own statues. His main complaint seems to be Lorgar is too slow in compliance and should hurry up.

Perhaps when Chaos cast the Primarchs to the 4 winds it was for this purpose, they would be raised on backward worlds with primitive beliefs and cultures all prone to corruption without realising it. Instead of being brought up in the Imperial Palace and be better educated, thankfully like Russ most primarchs upbringing was warrior orientated and useful to make them tough.

It seems the Primarchs who land on Planets where there is a little knowledge is around they start thinking. Doesn't the Emperor trust them to think or does he want killing machines. If so then go to Mars and get better mechanoids - lol - how about a Primarch class Dreadnaught servitor. Incidently he is worshipped on Mars as an aspect of the Machine God, seems to turn a blind eye to that.

He does a deal with Chaos in making the Primarchs - then renages (sp) on the deal, a very old myth story of a proud king who doesnt pay his dept, sleeping beauty, rumplstiltskin etc. Chaos will have their due it seems and he will pay all the more if he cheats them (though to be honest they are 2 faced - they would cheat him on the deal).

Does the Emperor hate religion because he thinks its a gate way to open people up to chaos, or that worship fills the warp with emotion, hmm all i know is that in the 40k setting many worlds are beset with turmoil and war and I have seen many people in all organisations from SM's to plebs take great comfort and strength in religion, as long as it is a decent religion - not a tear hearts out and eat them religion.

Is the Emperor a god - no, he can be killed he is part flesh and blood. Should he condone his own worship, probably not, but I cant see it being a very bad thing, just tone it down a bit. Although I think its important to find out as much about the darks gods as possible to see if they are beatable, it is dangerous. Secondly finding the Emperor has flaws seems to be hard for people, all entities have flaws hopefully, so they can be beaten if nessessary.

Is Lorgar weak and pathetic, also an old myth type, he loves his father but his father doesnt love him, when the emperor destroys that devotion he seems to loose his sense of purpose.

I liked it when he smacked Malcador and Guilliman down - he should have killed them, thereby hangs the paradox, if he had been a killing machine warrior they wouldnt take liberties.

The lost Primarchs: Magnus called them the "Forgotten and the Purged" 2 different fates. He also warns Lorgar not to be the third lost primarch.

Finally the book seems to leave me wanting to know more about the chaos powers and our relationship with them, I dont believe it to be true that we must accept them, they may be lying. They obviously have some real part in the whole galactical scheme of things. Meaning; Can we beat them, do we beat them or even should we beat them.


----------



## Captain Sor Talgron

Finished the First heretic, loved it and hated it at the same time. It definately gave me more insight into my favourite legion. 

It angered me greatly how the Emperor treated his most loyal and devoted son. Infact it angers me how the big E treated most of his sons, despite being the most deadliest killing machines in the galaxy, they STILL HAD FEELINGS!

You know what... it wasn't Chaos, Kor Phaeron, Erebus or even Horus who is responsible for the Heresy, Its the Emperor!

Had the Emperor shown compassion for his sons, love and respect the heresy would never have gotten far. Rewarding his sons personally and individually would have made them feel special, wasn't it in Galaxy in Flames or False Gods where Horus cries out why his father has abandoned him?


----------



## nestersan

Again I say, the Emp is flawed, not only flawed but blinded by what he is. His very visage is a lie, his creations are tools, he wants an empire cut off from Chaos, yet the very presence of psykers and the Eye prove him a liar. 

An immortal super-human who uses entites who have been alive since the beginning of the universe to create his sons, then THINKS he can avoid paying the toll is the biggest idiot of all.

The gods of Chaos understand the hearts of men (Primarches included) better than he ever will. 

He knows his sons are a reflection of himself, they are not stupid, and his notion of "security through obscurity" does not work for computer systems nor does it work for a galaxy wide empire, there will always be seekers of the truth, even when the truth is hard, and dangerous and brings bitter tears, and his empire would have crumbled slowly like the Eldar did, and would have been wiped out much the same way.

What is so funny, is that for an unfeeling tyrant who would order genocide or the killing of his own sons for the 'greator good', when it came to Horus he displayed alarmingly human sentiment.

ps..

Had an interesting thought: Since the Chaos entities are without time or rules, like how god is supposed to be (Everywhen). Is it entirely possible that they ran through countless Heresy scenarios, tweaking and manipulating, every vison, every death, every survival trying to get the outcome that they have now ? 

Horus would be of no use to them as a leader after the heresy, his faith is only in himself. So his death was a forgone conclusion.

Did anyone else find it telling how the Custodes seem to think they are the true 'Children of the Emperor', even they seem to realise the Primarchs are just tools to be used to further the Emp's goals.

I have gained some new found respect and insight for Logar, but I think him a bit misguided. He did not even after going into the Eye have to do what he did. He could have simply brought back the proof without the seeds of insurrection that he allowed his seconds to sow.

I am curious as to why Magnus was so evasive, he knew about Chaos (not by that name), but he knew, and even though like the Emp he made terrible bargains, and knew the Emp made terrible bargains, he could have given Lorgar a primer on why his path was so dangerous, and could have have made him stop at the brink instead of bringing back curruption.

As a matter of fact, Emp and Magnus having a sit down with the Primacrhs on the nature of Chaos and why it must be fought would have been for the best. 

As far as Chaos being a gun in the house of an ADD kid, it is more like Chaos is like living in a giant onion, and the Emp is saying this air is sweet and pure and what you smell is roses, and getting pissy when the reek makes your eyes water.

The theme of the whole series seems to be "I know best what is for you, you do not need to know anything, do not try to figure out for yourself, just follow and be content"


----------



## nate187

my 2 cents worth though it is a little late. 

Just finished the book and wow what can I say one of the best in the series, excellent work ADB!!!

I understand that the Emperor was selling a lie and that was his major flaw but imagine if his chosen son stayed true? Is it not true that religion is one of the main reasons humanity is constantly fighting itself, even in the real world! 

Him not telling his own people about the lure of chaos is kind of half true I think. There are numerous mentions through out the series that describe the beings of the warp as intelligent and powerfull predators much like our unknownly deep oceans. Lorgar was the one that described them as gods.

This arguement could go on forever but I think in the long run the Emperor of mankind wanted a way forward for all mankind with out using the Warp. This would be achieved by our own web way starting at terra. This would of ceased warp travel and voided the chaos gods there main source of influance man thus becoming less powerful and weak.

Overall I havent lost faith in the Big E like many readers of this book may have. It was an outstanding book that added some awsome cannon into the universe (unknown primarchs hats off to you ADB!) Now I wish the emperor was up front in the first place lol

Maybe soon we will get the story from the emperors or someone who doesnt turn traitors perspective. I leave you all with this final quote.

''Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the seprpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the saftety of mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from our stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance''


----------



## nestersan

I haven't lost faith in him, never had any. Just think that he behaves inhumanly in one breath, then acts like a doting lost father in the next..

Angron, Lorgar, Magnus are clear cases of "WHAT THE ^#%#$^% are you thinkng dude ?" 

Idiots guide to Fatherhood 101 would have stopped 99% of the bullcrap that happened.

It's like Emp has a coin he flips when he encounters a kid: 

Heads= Tool that I use without concern of his feelins or humanity.

Tails= Long lost son who I value.

In hindsight, it seems like he expects them be fully emotionally formed, mature, and capable. Failing to realise not all on them ended up on Mcragge being tutored by a kindly King, who fed and clothed him, or had their adopted grandfather's binky to sleep with at night.


----------



## Schild

Well this is my first post, and I don't exactly expect to resolve all of the questions behind the Emperor's reasoning with it.

However, I think too many people are forgetting that the man single-handedly founded the Imperium, a huge empire which has survived uncorrupted (at its core) for 10,000 years. He built a machine through which he has kept Chaos at bay for all those long years (and that wasn't its intended use!). Now, perhaps the Imperium is slowly eroding away without a true leader, but its continued existence isn't an accomplishment to be belittled. Humanity in this period is fighting much more powerful xenos and Chaos forces than the Eldar could have imagined at their height, and are surviving.

To suggest the figure who orchestrated all this is totally naive about the nature of his sons or the Chaos gods is just silly, IMO. The Emperor may not be the "best" at reading people, that's an argument for another day, although in all accounts he comes very close to reading thoughts. Still, it hardly takes a genius to realize he is pushing his sons away. He gives Horus the keys to his convertible but then locks him out the house and refuses to visit. He sees Lorgar worshipping him and allows it to go on for an entire century and lets his Legion swell to great power before humiliating him and basically daring him to prove him wrong. And on an on, probably before its said and done we will learn the specific way the Emperor poked and prodded each disloyal Primarch. 

I personally don't believe he _wanted_ the Heresy, but that doesn't mean he couldn't foresee it coming and seek to shape it as best he could. For everything he might have done to create enemies, especially Lorgar, those same actions drew his other sons closer to him and gave them an enemy to fight, ensuring their loyalty instead of slow seduction into Chaos.

There may be many futures, but Chaos was able to show Horus the true one as he was not venerated alongside his brothers on a shrine world. The future might be cloudy, but it is clear you can make out some outlines. All the gifted psykers can see them. How in the world would the Emperor totally miss the biggest twist the galaxy has ever seen?


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## nestersan

The same way you are the last person to know your wife is shagging the pool boy...

Like I said, I am sure he assumed his kids were all like Guilliman or Dorn (Who has a guilt induced pain fetish btw). He was just not thinking clearly.

He comes across Sanguinius dead at Horus's feet and stopped to have an interview...
Seriously, blind as a bat to his own children's foilbles.

The Primarchs are like a bunch of Lions, they respect each other's power to an extent, they may be amicable and work together, they may even form pair groups, but there is an undercurrent of violent potential between them that can easily lead to deadly confrontation that makes them circle warily around each other.

You really think the Word Bearers would not have opened fire on the smurfs ?

The mutant hypocrite wolves were only too happy to slaughter to a man (including innocent planet dwellers) the 1K sons. It was not even a righteous (I am doing my fathers will) cleansing IMO, it was very malicious.

The Emp wanted Magnus brought back to Terra, Horus said kill not capture, and the cur primarch gladly took up arms, not even a question like "Father are you sure ?" so that his was the first Legion to GLADLY take up arms against a brother Legion.

The only good thing to come out of it, was that Magnus was not at the seige of terra to power the golden throne, dooming that sycopant Malcador and fucking the Imperium.
Magnus (still loyal) and the remainder of the 1K sons would have been able to tip the balance because of the abilities they had.

LOLOLOLOL...

Fuck that flea infested fuck...


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## normtheunsavoury

The general theme of the Heresy books so far is a flip around of the more established ways of thinking about the 40K universe. Chaos, whether you like it or not have seemed to be telling the truth, a dark twisted and unpalatable truth but truth all the same.
The Emperor was the deceiver (I mean in relative terms, I'm not turning into Lux!) he lied to the entire Imperium, whatever his motives were he based them on a very important lie. 
The Chaos Gods had been worshipped by humanity for millennia before the Emperor turned up and started to tell people it was wrong and they should stop, many of these civilisations seem to have been doing OK, some had even prospered, what threat did Chaos really pose? 

The more the Heresy books uncover the more the Empreror looks like the villain of the whole thing.


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## nestersan

I wouldn't say he is the villian, but certainly he is just as bad as Chaos in the way that he treats individuals.

Chaos needs entities who can power it through emotion, so the extinction of humanity is not one of the goals it has.

As it is now, the Imperium is pretty much perfect, cause Chaos feeds on the good and bad.

Inquisitorial torture and exterminatus' all feed Chaos, the nobles curruption and excess, everything, every act, even praying to the Emp with fervour, feeds Chaos.

There are better outcomes, but considering this was a climactic battle between Chaos and the Emp, I would say they are taking the victory they got.



He would have plugged Magnus into the Golden Throne ( I do say leaving him a husk, much like he is now, a powerful, all most all knowing husk, but still a husk), and then continued the expansion of humanity indefinately.

Being human, I nevertheless take exception to the genocidal tendencies of the Emp.

I read of planets in HH, were humanity lives in peace with AI and with Aliens, and they were considered tainted and eradicated.

We would have lived alone, unchanging, sterile, devoid of contact with new cultures, and it would not have stopped the insurrections and revolts.


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## Angel of Blood

Bearing in mind though that all the accounts of the Emperor appearing to be the big villain and deciever in all of this are from the traitor legion perspectives and other individuals allied to chaos. Where as the loyalist books are all almost all portraying him in a good light still all the while showing just how vile and corrupt chaos will make you


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## normtheunsavoury

Angel of Blood said:


> Bearing in mind though that all the accounts of the Emperor appearing to be the big villain and deciever in all of this are from the traitor legion perspectives and other individuals allied to chaos. Where as the loyalist books are all almost all portraying him in a good light still all the while showing just how vile and corrupt chaos will make you


This is why the series has been clever so far, both sides will have their supporters and their opponents. It adds fuel to the debates and more importantly its putting the nails in the coffin lid of the whole 'They is the good guys' argument. Neither side is perfect as either villains or heroes, the Emperor is a liar and a hypocrite and Chaos represents the extremes of everything, they are truthful but is it a truth you want to hear or be part of?


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## nate187

Angel of Blood said:


> Bearing in mind though that all the accounts of the Emperor appearing to be the big villain and deciever in all of this are from the traitor legion perspectives and other individuals allied to chaos. Where as the loyalist books are all almost all portraying him in a good light still all the while showing just how vile and corrupt chaos will make you


Definately true but the way this is going is more like blue or red? which is your favourite.

A loyalist book would be nice may prospero burns will answer some of these questions.


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