# Eldar Gods Dead?



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I may have missed something pretty fundamental here, if I have I will happily wear the 'tard cap for a day or two!
The Eldar Gods were Warp entities, in much the same way as the Chaos Powers. I assume (and this is where it could go horribly wrong!) that they fed off of worship and the specific parts of the Eldar psyche that they represented, again, in much the same way as the Chaos Gods. 
How is it possible that they are now dead?
Did those parts of the Eldar personality die with the Gods that represented them? Or was it due to the Eldar being wiped out and there just being not enough Eldar to maintain their presence in the Warp?


----------



## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

They weren't really the same thing, as I understand it. They had actual physical manifestations, and they were bound by the natural passage of time.


----------



## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

Well, there is the pervasive rumour that the eldar gods were actually the last few Old Ones... But Ynnead proves that the eldar can create gods other than She Who Thirsts. 

It's heavily implied that most of the gods were killed off fighting the C'tan and/or eaten by Slaanesh. The only exception are Khaine, who now lives in fragments, Cegorach (the harlequin god, lives in the webway and protects their souls from Slaanesh) and Isha, who apparently is now in the... ah, tender embrace of Nurgle. 

If they were Old Ones, they've mostly died at the hands of the C'tan or indeed the forces of chaos. 

If truly warp-entities, the idea of Slaanesh consuming them makes a fair bit of sense - it killed 99% of the eldar population when it was born in one mass feeding frenzy. In a horrible way, Slaanesh became the one true eldar god and it stands to reason the smaller gods like Asuryan and Kurnous were swallowed up into Slaanesh as well.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The Eldar worship the Chaos Gods, they just have other names for them and worship specific aspects. For example, a god of war and blood... Beginning with the letter 'K'... Any guesses?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Khain and khorne are two different gods. They worshiped khain but killing always helps khorne.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The eldar do not worship khaine. Only the exarchs do. The rest of the eldar are in a different personality when in war as part of their war mask.

I like the daemons book in the quote where the guy explains how all the chaos gods in some way worship tzeentch.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

The eldar gods definitely had limitations that the chaos gods, and even daemons, don't, and in that respect they're similar to Gork and Mork


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If I took the eldar gods and disregarded the fact that they could be old ones, I think that it would make sense, that the older gods were over taken or absorbed by the newer gods. Since the warp is ever changing, it makes sense that gods would also change. Perhaps the four powers will be destroyed as well, with a creation of a new or newer god/s that are currently being created.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ynnead is suppose to own Slannesh and kill him off when the End Time comes around.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'd like to think Asuryan was able to survive if Khaine was able to.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Sad that he wasn't.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Sad that he wasn't.


Or so it has been said.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Khain and khorne are two different gods. They worshiped khain but killing always helps khorne.


Khaine is just an apect of Khorne, in the same way as different aspects of the Emperor are worshipped within the Imperium. The Eldar are really dumb when it comes to gods, they even worship the Deceiver!


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

? No.... no. They don't worship Khorne, he was around after khaine. Also, they fought the Necrontyr, they didn't worship them.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

darklove said:


> Khaine is just an apect of Khorne, in the same way as different aspects of the Emperor are worshipped within the Imperium. The Eldar are really dumb when it comes to gods, they even worship the Deceiver!


Please support your statement that any Eldar god (Cegorach, the Deceiver's main enemy among the Eldar, who is older than the C'tan, seeming to be the main candidate) is the Deceiver with evidence.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, if he doesn't I know where this theory is going. Lol


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

darklove said:


> Khaine is just an apect of Khorne, in the same way as different aspects of the Emperor are worshipped within the Imperium. The Eldar are really dumb when it comes to gods, they even worship the Deceiver!


Cegorach is not the Deceiver. :no:


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> Please support your statement that any Eldar god (Cegorach, the Deceiver's main enemy among the Eldar, who is older than the C'tan, seeming to be the main candidate) is the Deceiver with evidence.


Actually the C'tan are older than any of the Warp Gods by at least a couple of billion years- they're the first life forms after all.

Though as CotE always says, in the the Warp time has no meaning- everything does and doesn't exist forever and never (nonsensical sounding I know).


----------



## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

Khaine was able to survive because his essence is shattered and physically shackled into the various Avatars. Cegorach was skillful and clever enough to hide in the webway - if he ever leaves, I think She Who Thirsts will be playing him a visit... Isha was taken into Nurgle - I think this symbolises the loss of hope and the general despair the Fall caused. The other gods, perhaps, made a stand. Fought Slaanesh for the eldar and were consumed. 

Khaine is not Khorne. There is confusion because in the Fantasy universe Khaine _is _essentially another aspect of Khorne, but as has been said, in the WH40K continuity Khaine is a seperate entity who was around first.

Equally, Cegorach is not the Deceiver, despite the obvious parallels. For a start, he actually cares for his charges - the harlequins wear no soul-stone because he's protecting their souls from Slaanesh. Except the awesomeness that is Solitaires, but even then he'll sometimes rescue their souls. This doesn't fit the Deceiver's MO because, well, he's pretty evil (and is perhaps the only C'tan to know such a label can be used, as his mindset is less alien), and also because the C'tan don't care for the warp, souls, daemons, etc. Their concerns are entirely with the material unvierse; hell, they want to cut off the warp forever.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the C'tan are older than any of the Warp Gods by at least a couple of billion years- they're the first life forms after all.
> 
> Though as CotE always says, in the the Warp time has no meaning- everything does and doesn't exist forever and never (nonsensical sounding I know).


That old chestnut is getting old, CotE. 

Eremite has the right idea. However, to clarify two points Khaine was never affiliated with Khorne in 40k to my knowledge. At least not in current canon anyway. When Slaanesh vanquished Khaine he was driven from the warp and banished to the materium forever. Khorne tried to wrest possession of the eldar god from Slaanesh, probably seeing the former war god as a trophy he was entitled to. Keep in mind that though the gods may be the same in both systems, the story differs on a number of points. Thus Khorne/Khaine being one entity in WHFB does not mean anything in 40k. :thank_you: Eremite. 

Cegorach and Deceiver... :ireful2: (settle down serp... settle down)

The Deceiver existed long before the eldar. His servants were the necrontyr.

Cegorach was an eldar god. He is known to dwell in the warp. He interacts with the other eldar gods. _In a realm that is anathema to the c`tan._

The c`tan go into stasis, including the Deceiver. But the harlequins continue to worship the Laughing God. He still exists in the eldar pantheon. _The Deceiver is sleeping!_

The rise of Slaanesh. The eldar gods are killed or captured or banished. Cegorach escapes Slaanesh`s grasp and flees to the webway. _The Deceiver is still dormant at this point!_

So, how can they be the same entity? How?!:headbutt:


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

The C'tan might be older than the Eldar Gods, but the Necrontyr only imbue them with sentience and corporeal form after getting their rears kicked and driven back to their home system. The Old Ones/Eldar Gods were the ones doing the driving. They might be younger than the C'tan, but when they were born, the C'tan were mindless energy-cloud beings moving from system to system draining stars.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

No the C'tan were sentient they just saw things on a completely different magnitude to organic life.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

All right. The point I'm trying to get across, though, is that while Cegorach was active, the C'tan that would be the Deceiver had yet to make contact with the Necrontyr, and was still greedily suckling the nectar of the stars.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> All right. The point I'm trying to get across, though, is that while Cegorach was active, the C'tan that would be the Deceiver had yet to make contact with the Necrontyr, and was still greedily suckling the nectar of the stars.


Here, Here!!!

Also back to the Laughing God/Deceiver mix up stems from fluff that explains the Deaceiver impersonated the Laughing God on mutiple accounts, and the Laughing God did the same during the War in Heaven. Menwhile the Night Bringer and Khain fought it out.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> All right. The point I'm trying to get across, though, is that while Cegorach was active, the C'tan that would be the Deceiver had yet to make contact with the Necrontyr, and was still greedily suckling the nectar of the stars.


Actually the eldar were created in response to the ongoing war between the Old Ones and Star Gods- they're a highly psychic race because it was one of the few things the C'tan couldn't counter.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the eldar were created in response to the ongoing war between the Old Ones and Star Gods- they're a highly psychic race because it was one of the few things the C'tan couldn't counter.


I'm wholly aware of that--along with the Krorks, Barghesi, Hrud, and a whole bunch more races. Humanity was one of their many seed races scattered around which just didn't blossom as quickly as some of the others (and was implanted with the Pariah Gene by the Deceiver).

In my eyes, that the Old Ones just created the Eldar just adds weight to the idea that the Old Ones are the Eldar Gods. And that the Hrud have a pantheon virtually identical to the Eldar one, apart from special favoring by the Old One Qah, who was "broken and cast in the void to linger, always" (as the Umbra?), according to _Xenology_.

The Old Ones, immensely powerful psychic beings, create all these races to help them in the War in the Heavens. They fight alongside the Krorks, Eldar, etc. The Eldar venerate them, and being highly psychic, boost the Old Ones to warp deity status.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Continuing on this chain of thought, I was just curious on the timeline. As I understand it, the eldar were created at a late point of the war in heaven, _after_ the c`tan`s numbers had been reduced to four.

Therefore, wouldn`t the c`tan have manifested before the Eldar Gods were born? I personally don`t believe that the Eldar gods are the Old Ones, but rather a corporeal alien race, because the nec dex states that they were a terrestrial life form.

So as I see it, it goes C`tan, Old Ones, Necrontyr, a bunch of others, Eldar, Eldar Gods etc...

Where exactly does it say that the Old Ones were immensely powerful phychic beings? Because I was under the impression that they created even more powerful phychic races to combat the c`tan. So it seems to me that while knowledgeable, they were not necessarily the most powerful psykers. Unless I`m missing a source?


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

If I remember correctly the Necrontyr and Old Ones are contemporary - but because the Necrontyr did not use any warp technology it took them a very long time to encounter the Old Ones. The C'tan are the oldest known things in 40k, pre-dating the Chaos Gods and the Eldar Gods.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

darklove said:


> If I remember correctly the Necrontyr and Old Ones are contemporary - but because the Necrontyr did not use any warp technology it took them a very long time to encounter the Old Ones. The C'tan are the oldest known things in 40k, pre-dating the Chaos Gods and the Eldar Gods.


Indeed in the 40k galaxy the only thing older, or as old, as the C'tan are the Stars themselves- the C'tan predate the formation of planets by millions of years.


----------



## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Therefore, wouldn`t the c`tan have manifested before the Eldar Gods were born? I personally don`t believe that the Eldar gods are the Old Ones, but rather a corporeal alien race, because the nec dex states that they were a terrestrial life form.


I'm pretty sure the Old Ones were corporeal, and it's quite possible a few survived post - War in Heaven by hiding from the all the newborn Chaos in the webway. 

With regards to why a psychic race would make psychic servants, well, they weren't neccesarily nice, seeding planets with life and opposing undeniable villains aside, and of course they needed something to fight the legions of Necrons while they dealt with the C'tan.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Where exactly does it say that the Old Ones were immensely powerful phychic beings? Because I was under the impression that they created even more powerful phychic races to combat the c`tan. So it seems to me that while knowledgeable, they were not necessarily the most powerful psykers. Unless I`m missing a source?


Well considering the fact that the Old Ones created the webway (or the Eldar did using the technology of the Old Ones, depending on your source), this would support them being powerful psychics or at least highly knowledgeable in regards to the warp.

'...The Old Ones' mastery of the warp...' - _Codex: Necrons 3rd Ed_, Page 25.
'...A plan to forever defeat the the magicks of the Old Ones...' - _Codex: Necrons 3rd Ed_, Page 26.

The above are the only two solid references I could find in Codex: Necrons to support the Old Ones being powerful psychics in their own right.

And in relation to the Eldar gods, I found a relavent passage from Codex: Necrons which is insightful here:

'...But even they (the Eldar) acknowledge that their own gods were born of a time of war in heaven that had been raging between the Ur-folk and the Yngir since the birth of creation.' - _Codex: Necrons 3rd Ed_, Page 30.

Does this then refute that the Eldar gods are/were Old Ones?


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Continuing on this chain of thought, I was just curious on the timeline. As I understand it, the eldar were created at a late point of the war in heaven, _after_ the c`tan`s numbers had been reduced to four.


Really? I was under the impression that it was Cegorach that tricked the Outsider into consuming its inferiors, sparking off the whole chain of C'tan consuming each other until only the four remained. It might have been the Deceiver...but the Harlequin dance celebrating Cegorach's trickery about which I've read refutes that, to some degree.


----------



## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

Actually, the Nightbringer was the first C'tan to eat another (and the one who racked up the highest tally), and they were all egged on by the Deceiver (who, despite being weakest, had his share of his star-siblings as well).

The Outsider was a seperate thing, apparently 'tricked' into eating C'tan in place of Cegorach, this being what drove it insane. This doesn't make sense, though, as the Nightbringer and Deceiver (while beyond mortal definition of sane or insane) didn't seem to change much after their feasting. This is the one time the Cegorach-is-Deceiver theory makes a bit of sense - not that I'm saying I believe in it - as it coukd mean that the Outside was trying to comsume the Deceiver and kept eating the wrong C'tan.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Really? I was under the impression that it was Cegorach that tricked the Outsider into consuming its inferiors, sparking off the whole chain of C'tan consuming each other until only the four remained. It might have been the Deceiver...but the Harlequin dance celebrating Cegorach's trickery about which I've read refutes that, to some degree.


That is said, which is why I`m confused. If you read the history of the universe bit in the necron codex, you see that the necrontyr had become the necrons and the c`tan had been reduced in numbers so that "only a few were left." In the next paragraph, we see the creation of the "earliest eldar."

Is this a fuck up or what? How can Cegorach have anything to do with the c`tan consuming each other if they were alrady reduced before the eldar even existed?

In the Deceiver`s entry and fluff, it says there were only four left when the Old Ones fought back as according to eldar legend. This is when the Eldar were created. I think we have a plot hole in established fluff here...?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well considering the fact that the Old Ones created the webway (or the Eldar did using the technology of the Old Ones, depending on your source), this would support them being powerful psychics or at least highly knowledgeable in regards to the warp.
> 
> '...The Old Ones' mastery of the warp...' - _Codex: Necrons 3rd Ed_, Page 25.
> '...A plan to forever defeat the the magicks of the Old Ones...' - _Codex: Necrons 3rd Ed_, Page 26.
> ...


I think the Eldar Gods being the Old Ones is gone given the info we have here.



Necron Codex pg30 said:


> Separating truth and myth about the c`tan is impossible, though given their nature perhaps it is a mistake to even try.


Nah. I think GW just fucked up on this one.  

Unless someone else can tie these in.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think there will always be confusion concerning cegorach and the deceiver since they spend so much time impersonating each other and each see the other as a rival and a mockery of their abilities.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Serpion- yes it does seem that way. Contradiction of history if you will.

Khaine is not Khorne. Khaine was birthed by the Eldar who existed long before humanity and humanity is the one who birthed Khorne through their mass bloodshed and wars and angry emotions. 

Eldar laughing god is also seperate from The Deciever seeing as both are opposites, One warp and one anethema to the warp. 

Back to topic: Yes most of the Eldar gods were consumed by Slannesh as the Eldar Codex states explicitly though one can interpret it as just legend or myth because it only says thats what the Eldar believe instead of it actually being fact. Khaine lives, Laughing God still alive and Ynnead being powered and will soon be borne once all the Eldar are dead.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Isha is still alive as well, imprisoned by Nurgle.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Wait.. imprisoned or consumed? cause someone earlier posted otherwise. lol but il take your word for it.


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Chaos demons dex page 82. Isha is imprisoned by nurgle.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Wait.. imprisoned or consumed? cause someone earlier posted otherwise. lol but il take your word for it.


Indeed she's imprisoned and Nurgle experiments with his new aliments on her, judging how good they are with how long it takes her to recover. She in turn whispers into the minds of mortals the cures for the ailments.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Khaine is not Khorne. Khaine was birthed by the Eldar who existed long before humanity and humanity is the one who birthed Khorne through their mass bloodshed and wars and angry emotions.


Khorne is not just the result of humanity's anger, wars and rage. But most of the mortal races of the galaxy.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Eldar laughing god is also seperate from The Deciever seeing as both are opposites, One warp and one anethema to the warp.


Don't let _Lux_ hear you say that.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Khorne is not just the result of humanity's anger, wars and rage. But most of the mortal races of the galaxy.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let _Lux_ hear you say that.


Yeah I'm in CotE's camp here, I think Khorne as a sentient entity predates humanity- I'm not saying he was necessarily formed during the War in Heaven but if he's even a million years old then he arose prior to the first **** Sapien armed conflict.

I don't think we have to worry about Lux reading anything for at least the next 2 weeks...


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Just still waiting for LUX to post a ridiculous theory that somehow Slaanesh is Asurmen or something else ridiculous.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Who is this Lux people refer to? lol I heard he got banned for starting a contradicting thread which raged into a unholy flame war called 'The Emperor is a C'tan but i have not found that thread yet and i wanted to see the colorful remarks made on it. 

and on topic: Yeah, I know Khorne is the embodiment of all emotional based rage and hatred from all the races with a small or large connection to the warp and through there combined influence he was formed, but he was not born until Humanity reached its age of barbarian wars where conflict and war happened almost all the time and that was needed to provide the jump start that would give Khorne enough energy to emerge.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> and on topic: Yeah, I know Khorne is the embodiment of all emotional based rage and hatred from all the races with a small or large connection to the warp and through there combined influence he was formed, but he was not born until Humanity reached its age of barbarian wars where conflict and war happened almost all the time and that was needed to provide the jump start that would give Khorne enough energy to emerge.


According to the first edition background yes. Much more recent background however (_Codex: Chaos Space Marines_ 4th ed. Page 8) states that the chaos gods took billions of years to manifest properly. I can't see humanity making even a minor contribution to the coalescing of Khorne for example, we were fighting petty inter-regional wars on a single planet with crude weaponary whilst across the galaxy much larger and fiercer inter-planetary and even inter-sector wars were being fought with an amount of bloodshed that made humanity's wars look pathetic in comparison.

If Khorne did manifest during Terra's 'dark ages' then it is pure coincidence by our current understanding of the lore.

And if your interested in _Lux_'s teachings, check this out:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69773

And in light of his more recent theories, that one is actually one of the most plausable. Which says a lot. :shok:


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Was the same guy who suggested that Night Haunter was still alive.

Even not I definitely voted that guy as the site's biggest troll.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The Eldar used to live alongside their gods, didn't they? It might be in the depths of the Liber Chaotica, but I'm sure that after, or during a lull in the War in Heaven, the Eldar and their gods were physically seperated by the Old Ones, because gods and mortals can't live together.
Also, the Eldar gods were created by the Eldar as weapons. At some point, the nature of the gods was lost to the Eldar who then started worshiping them. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to visit the Liber again, just yet. But I'm sure that what I've posted has some grain of fluff-truth!

GFP


----------



## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Is Vaul still alive? Because I don't see any mention of him biting it anywhere.


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

coke123 said:


> Is Vaul still alive? Because I don't see any mention of him biting it anywhere.


Sounds like he's bound to his own anvil after falling in battle to Khaine. Must be a boring way to spend eternity.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

coke123 said:


> Is Vaul still alive? Because I don't see any mention of him biting it anywhere.


Given established Lore, it is a safe assumption that Vaul died along with the rest of the Eldar Pantheon.



Davidicus 40k said:


> Sounds like he's bound to his own anvil after falling in battle to Khaine. Must be a boring way to spend eternity.


Vaul attempted to defeat Khaine using Anaris in order to protect his own interests (they fought over a girl ) but even with this mighty weapon Khaine proved the stronger. 

Khaine took the sword Anaris for himself and bound Vaul to his own anvil, supposedly for eternity. But when Slaanesh arose, I don`t see Vaul putting up much resistance...

Only Khaine and Cegorach survived the birth of Slaanesh. And they are somewhat reduced in influence. 



@BaronSpikey: What`s with the MkII?


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Um Child- Lux does not seem to be a very bright fellow since his arguments are unsupportive and more opinion based and he failed to acknowledge other evidence brought to light that contradicted his previous reasoning and so fails at debating at anything worthwhile. The Emperor being a C'Tan is the most contradicting statement ever. lol 

OH! and i have found something to make you eat your words Child! haha. p.8 of CSM 4th edition states that "The warps energies and constant flow has been in motion for billions of years", it does not state that the Gods were made or born in any of those billions of years thou because it does not give a solid time or date as to which of those billions of years they were born. It simply states that the warp has been in motion for a long time, and then states that the Gods were originally mindless and formless beings given conscious over a very long time of flowing in the warp. Also further evidence on P. 32 in the DoomBreed entry states that Khorne was the first to fully awake and that DoomBreed was the first of his servants which seems weird because DoomBreed is mentioned as also used to being a Human Warlord waging war on earth before he became a Daemon Prince and it also states that "His genocide and murder pleased the YOUNG god khorne" <-- exact words from entry. 

So my point is that Khorne was still a young god when Earth was still in its state of Barbaric Wars between warlords, thus supporting that the Chaos gods are not as old as they seem since the rest of the gods were born after Khorne was. Also humanity plays a big part in affecting the warp since they were warp sensitive and their emotions fuel the warp alot more then any other race.

hopefully this new evidence can spring some thoughts into motion.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> OH! and i have found something to make you eat your words Child! haha. p.8 of CSM 4th edition states that "The warps energies and constant flow has been in motion for billions of years", it does not state that the Gods were made or born in any of those billions of years thou because it does not give a solid time or date as to which of those billions of years they were born. It simply states that the warp has been in motion for a long time, and then states that the Gods were originally mindless and formless beings given conscious over a very long time of flowing in the warp.


I don't have the codex at the moment where I am, and won't see it again for weeks. But I am 100% positive that it refers to the chaos gods being born from billions of years of particular coalescing warp energy. 100% positive. And im fairly sure it was page 8 - under the title _Gods and Champions_. 



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Also further evidence on P. 32 in the DoomBreed entry states that Khorne was the first to fully awake and that DoomBreed was the first of his servants which seems weird because DoomBreed is mentioned as also used to being a Human Warlord waging war on earth before he became a Daemon Prince and it also states that "His genocide and murder pleased the YOUNG god khorne" <-- exact words from entry.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If Khorne did manifest during Terra's 'dark ages' then it is pure coincidence by our current understanding of the lore.





XxDreMisterxX said:


> So my point is that Khorne was still a young god when Earth was still in its state of Barbaric Wars between warlords, thus supporting that the Chaos gods are not as old as they seem since the rest of the gods were born after Khorne was.


I was aware of that passage under _Doombreed_, however it seems contradictory to other parts in the codex and even other modern lore. I'd also just like to throw in the timeless issue that the warp is timeless, therefore applying the word _"young"_ to Khorne is a paradox.

There is also other pieces of lore which implies the chaos gods are much older, _Codex: Necrons_ for example which states 60,000,000 years ago the warp was thrown into disarray as a result of the War in Heaven, implying in it's wording that this is when chaos began to rise.

Ultimately though I refuse to believe that the first three chaos gods manifested during the rise of mankind (unless it is a pure coincidence). Simply because this implies mankind played a significant role in their manifestation. You can't honestly say that humanity's petty conflicts across a single world brought about the rise of Khorne, when for 60,000,000 years across the entire galaxy (if not universe) inter-planetary through to plausable inter-galactic warfare was being waged. The War in Heaven itself is noted as a conflict the likes of which the universe has never seen again, this conflict in itself would have contributed significantly to the rise of Khorne rather than semi-intelligent monkeys bashing each other with sticks. 

This can in turn be cross referenced with the rise of Slaanesh. A galaxy spanning empire with trillions of subjects who are one of the most (if not the most) psychically attuned species in the galaxy took thousands of years (possibly up to a million according to _Codex: Eldar_) to give rise to Slaanesh. I refuse to believe mankind gave rise to three chaos gods in the space of a couple thousand years (and that's being generous) even when civilisation had barely started on Terra and wars in general had few casualties and minor bloodshed compared to other conflicts raging in the universe.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Also humanity plays a big part in affecting the warp since they were warp sensitive and their emotions fuel the warp alot more then any other race.


It plays a big part in M41, considering they are a psychic race, which numbers in the trillions across the galaxy, and are highly suspectible to corruption. But humanity as a whole is much more psychically attuned in M41 than it is ever was, especially back in Terra's ages - it has been evolving psychically.


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I was aware of that passage under _Doombreed_, however it seems contradictory to other parts in the codex and even other modern lore. I'd just like to throw in the timeless issue that the warp is timeless, therefore applying the word 'young' to Khorne is a paradox.


I understand how you beat us to submission with the "gods being timeless", but for the sake of the materium timeline in our little dimension, he is considered young by physical space standards at that moment.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

You should reread p.8 because i did before posting my reply. lol 

Haha, i see were your going Child and I take back what i said about humanity being the only contributer because i reread the p.8 and it turns out all the races contributed greatly (thou not specific on any significant events to speed up the outcome) and The War in Heaven would be a major influence. I acknowledge the actions of the other races and their you are correct. But for the sake of the discussion, the warp must be discussed in material realm terms and saying Khorne was young is a paradox but also a clarification because The Warp itself is a paradox of itself. there is no explaining it and no justifiable answer for either of us. So going by material realm laws were time applies (no warpy influence), It is mentioned in the Codex: Eldar that the warp was sentient and calm and did not thirst for the souls of mortals thus allowing the Eldar to be reborn and not consumed. But thats were the dilemma lies. Wouldnt Khorne be around to consume them? So if he didnt then the chaos gods were not born when the Eldar were around, but afterwards when their race started going into excess and debauchery of the sensual cults. But their lies another dilemma for when Slannesh was born the warp became violent and dangerous and 2/3 of the Eldar race died in a span of a couple seconds. ( It also says millions of eldar died not trillions) But then isnt Slannesh the youngest of the chaos gods? so wouldnt the other 3 be around and causing mass mayham or were they simply biding their time and not doing anything? and the War in heaven started after the Birth of Slannesh and i remember reading somewhere that Khorne personally tried to stop Slannesh from killing Khaine but couldnt in time so Khaine was broken into pieces. (Slannesh and Khaine waged a titanic duel and both got tired but before Slannesh could consume him Khorne intervened and Slannesh only shattered khaine rather then consume) 

Also Its stated in the Eldar codex that after the War in Heaven ended the warp having used up all its energy in that titanic battle of the gods all its energy got used up and the warp storms around Terra dispersed allowing Humanity to plow the stars and scatter.


----------



## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

The Eldar say there gods are dead and only a few still exist, Cegorach the laughing god survived through cunning and hiding in the webway were he plays his tricks on the other gods to this day... the other survivor was Khaine and he survived through might, he battled Slaanesh in the warp with the god sword Anaris in his hands but was not powerful enough, neither was Slaanesh strong enough to completely destroy him so he was rent into fragments and cast out of the warp and now resides in the heart of each craftworld.

This is the doom of the Eldar... but there is still a chance, when the last eldar joins the infinity circuits the Ynnead the god of the dead will arise with enough strength to cast Slaanesh down and vanquish him forever.

So in other words... its on bitch! :biggrin:


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes, since Ynnead will only be born after the last Eldar is dead, it will be their giant middle finger to chaos.


----------



## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Yes, since Ynnead will only be born after the last Eldar is dead, it will be their giant middle finger to chaos.


I like that, i like that alot, though our race is dead and gone, so's your god!

(INSERT PICTURE OF GIANT MIDDLE FINGER HERE!) :laugh:


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Also Its stated in the Eldar codex that after the War in Heaven ended the warp having used up all its energy in that titanic battle of the gods all its energy got used up and the warp storms around Terra dispersed allowing Humanity to plow the stars and scatter.


It can be argued that the warp storms isolating terra and the other human worlds were actually caused by the decadent actions of the eldar, shortly before the fall. Slaanesh was coalescing gradually, dormant within the warp until she awoke, drawing in the souls of the eldar civilisation.

This awakening resuulted in all of that emotion being drawn to a single point, thus calming the storms. So potent was this giant cosmic vacuum of energy, that it tore the galaxy a new one, and we have the Eye of Terror as proof to this day. 



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Yes, since Ynnead will only be born after the last Eldar is dead, it will be their giant middle finger to chaos.


Amusing... :spiteful:

You believe that a god created from trillions of Eldar souls, drained at the height of their civilisation, will be defeated by a god created by the last dregs of that race?


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Lord_Anonymous said:


> The Eldar say there gods are dead and only a few still exist, Cegorach the laughing god survived through cunning and hiding in the webway were he plays his tricks on the other gods to this day... the other survivor was Khaine and he survived through might, he battled Slaanesh in the warp with the god sword Anaris in his hands but was not powerful enough, neither was Slaanesh strong enough to completely destroy him so he was rent into fragments and cast out of the warp and now resides in the heart of each craftworld.


Isha also survived and is still alive. 



> You believe that a god created from trillions of Eldar souls, drained at the height of their civilisation, will be defeated by a god created by the last dregs of that race?


That's what he's designed to do so yes. He's supposed to be a manifestation of the dead soul of all Eldar so presumably that will involve draining Slaanesh's power somewhat. In fact the birth of Ynnead may just destroy Slaanesh as the other Chaos gods pick over his bones as his power diminishes.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Isha also survived and is still alive.


Bear in mind the concept of the gods here. Isha was taken by Slaanesh, just as all the others were. She was consumed, just as the others were. Just as with the mortal souls of the Eldar, to be consumed entails an eternity of suffering, it does not erase the entities themselves. 

Nurgle wrested Isha from Slaanesh`s grasp...



Aramoro said:


> That's what he's designed to do so yes. He's supposed to be a manifestation of the dead soul of all Eldar so presumably that will involve draining Slaanesh's power somewhat. In fact the birth of Ynnead may just destroy Slaanesh as the other Chaos gods pick over his bones as his power diminishes.


...and you believe Ynnead will be able to steal power from Slaanseh? Frankly, I doubt it. 

I believe that the Chaos Gods can be vanquished by sufficient force, but I do not believe that Ynnead will be the one to do it. 

It seems too fairytale to me, it doesn`t seem to fit the grimdark of 40k.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Eldar gods seem to have been manifest beings, so most of them are actually dead and not coming back. Cegorach and Isha still seem to be in the form that they existed in during the Fall, Khaine was all but destroyed and now exists in some fractured form. 

Ynnead is some sort of prophecy that all the Phoenix Lords are working towards. Given their talents for prophecy etc I don't see any reason to doubt the Ynnead story. It's as fantastical and bizzare as the Fall itself and that happened. Not that it will happen soon as there's still a lot of Eldar out there.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Its believed that Ynnead will also rest the control of the imprisoned Eldar gods from Slannesh and with the combined might of all the Eldar and Eldar gods within him, he will utterly destroy Slannesh. 

Buts thats just a optimistic view if everything goes all right.


----------



## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Cegorach is the only one that truly survived. 
Although im not sure where i read it but i think that the goddess Isha was captured and trapped by Nurgle, who uses his newest poisions on her as she cannot die from them, alhtough this ultimatly works against Nurgle as Isha whispers the cures for these diseases into the mortal world. 
I am not sure how valid this is though


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

cegorach said:


> Cegorach is the only one that truly survived.
> Although im not sure where i read it but i think that the goddess Isha was captured and trapped by Nurgle, who uses his newest poisions on her as she cannot die from them, alhtough this ultimatly works against Nurgle as Isha whispers the cures for these diseases into the mortal world.
> I am not sure how valid this is though


You are right about Isha being a prisoner of nurgle. She was captured by slaanesh. Nurgle fell in love, well his version, rescued her from Slaanesh. Now he shows his twisted version of love by force feeding her his newest diseases (Lex).


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Serpion- If the fairy tale version doesnt fit with you how about this? 

As the last of the Eldar die off, Ynnead wakes up and rises from his long slumber to fight the perverted Chaos God Slannesh. Ynnead, strengthened by the dead Eldar, uses his awesome power to strike a horrific blow to Slannesh by landing a blow so hard that it spills the power of the Eldar Gods out of him and Ynnead absorbs it immediately and with the help of Cegorach figures out a way to free the Eldar Gods and with the Combined might weaken Slannesh drastically. Seeing their chance at finally being able to remove one of the Gods of Chaos, the other 3 Chaos Gods pounce on the chance to gang up and finally consume Slannesh and destroy his realm and presence in the warp. 
The End. Lol Grim end.


----------



## ringthorn1 (Jan 26, 2011)

i wonder why the high elves and the eldar worship the same gods. hmmm..... separate dimensions..... one in the middle..... thinking.... my theory is that the realm of chaos from fantasy and the warp from 40k are the same thing. i beleive that people from 40k can travel into the warp and get into the realm of fantasy. they would just have to find the fantasy entrance. the realm of fantasy and 40k must be separate alternate dimensions, just separated by each other by the realm of chaos.... this would explain who the old ones were. just some guys from 40k who stumbled into the world of fantasy.... hmmmmm.... any comments.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

ringthorn1 said:


> i wonder why the high elves and the eldar worship the same gods. hmmm..... separate dimensions..... one in the middle..... thinking.... my theory is that the realm of chaos from fantasy and the warp from 40k are the same thing. i beleive that people from 40k can travel into the warp and get into the realm of fantasy. they would just have to find the fantasy entrance. the realm of fantasy and 40k must be separate alternate dimensions, just separated by each other by the realm of chaos.... this would explain who the old ones were. just some guys from 40k who stumbled into the world of fantasy.... hmmmmm.... any comments.


Sorry but that idea was knocked dead by GW some time ago, it used to be the case but the two settings are very much seperate now.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

yesh. they made it very clear that the two universes are seperated entirely. :bye:

Though, the concepts are both one and the same set in different time periods with alternating plots. Its like a play with different plot lines, but same actors and a slightly different antagonist hero.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Sorry but that idea was knocked dead by GW some time ago, it used to be the case but the two settings are very much seperate now.





XxDreMisterxX said:


> yesh. they made it very clear that the two universes are seperated entirely. :bye:
> 
> Though, the concepts are both one and the same set in different time periods with alternating plots. Its like a play with different plot lines, but same actors and a slightly different antagonist hero.


It was stated that Fantasy world was not in the 40k universe, nothing about them being alternate realities connected by the Warp.

Of course I'm slightly biased as that's a theory I hold to as well.


----------



## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

i skipped to the end of this because i didnt want to read all the posts but khaine killed a bunch of the gods and Isha was captured by nurgle


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Serpion- If the fairy tale version doesnt fit with you how about this?
> 
> As the last of the Eldar die off, Ynnead wakes up and rises from his long slumber to fight the perverted Chaos God Slannesh. Ynnead, strengthened by the dead Eldar, uses his awesome power to strike a horrific blow to Slannesh by landing a blow so hard that it spills the power of the Eldar Gods out of him and Ynnead absorbs it immediately and with the help of Cegorach figures out a way to free the Eldar Gods and with the Combined might weaken Slannesh drastically. Seeing their chance at finally being able to remove one of the Gods of Chaos, the other 3 Chaos Gods pounce on the chance to gang up and finally consume Slannesh and destroy his realm and presence in the warp.
> The End. Lol Grim end.


I suppose that`s possible. But it doesn`t really fit with any prophecy. Besides, it ultimately solves nothing, the emotions that feed Slaanesh have always existed and always will. The Strength a rival would have to obtain would exceed anything ever held by any being before. 

Even Khorne doesn`t have that kind of power, and he`s the oldest of the Chaos powers, and the most like minded to attempt it. 

Sorry, it was a nice try but I am of the opinion that Chaos is here to stay. 



normtheunsavoury said:


> Sorry but that idea was knocked dead by GW some time ago, it used to be the case but the two settings are very much seperate now.


Now?! They always were! Ahem!  



Baron Spikey said:


> Of course I'm slightly biased as that's a theory I hold to as well.


That`s very unprofessional of you. 



CardShark said:


> i skipped to the end of this because i didnt want to read all the posts but khaine killed a bunch of the gods and Isha was captured by nurgle


Khaine killed who now? No, I think you`ve misread something. And you really should have read the thread, your post added nothing but slight confusion. :stinker:


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ynnead isnt just made up of the Dregs of Eldar left. Hes a Collection of all the Eldar (Exodites, Craftworld, and maybe Dark Kin as well) since the fall. The Eldar still breed you know and although their numbers dwindled alot they still have enough Eldar to fight in 40k battles to become common known Xenos along with Orcs. 

Also Slannesh was at his PEAK when he was birthed, now his power waxes and wans like the rest of the Chaos Gods. Ynnead being born at the moment all current Eldar die, combine with 10,000+ years of gathered Eldar Souls, attacking Slaanesh during his waning time is a ez bout for the God of Dead. It would be exactly what happen with Slaanesh birth only nowYnneads the billy badass. The Chaos Patheon can exist without Slaanesh, they did before his birth.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Chaos Patheon can exist without Slaanesh, they did before his birth.


Although of course Slaanesh has *always* been a part of the chaos pantheon, so that logic is flawed. Working on the assumption that Ynnead could destroy Slaanesh (impossible in my mind) can chaos endure without Slaanesh (again working on the assumption that Slaanesh could be removed from the equation)? Im not so sure.

_'No Chaos God can ever truly be victorious for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.'_

That is what _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ states in regards to the eternal nature of the Great Game. Whether or not this would also be the case if a single chaos power was removed rather than all but one is a different matter, but Slaanesh being removed from the equation would deduct from the concept that is chaos overall, thereby I would claim it is impossible.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

So what I wanna know is where did all of Slaanesh's emotions (lust, pleasure, pain, etc) which god did they go to before Slaanesh came around? Were they split up somehow?

I think Slaanesh could be defeated and taken out of the equation, as he was not there to start.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I figure the original Eldar Gods were heroes, like Eldanesh, but ones that were essentially of hyper-Phoenix Lord level...like a Primarch is to a Captain. The psychic natures of the Eldar and reverence for these incredibly powerful individuals boosted them to deification, and the rest is (future) history!

As for Ynnead...I imagine that he will simply release Slaanesh's hold on the Eldar souls, nothing to do with destroying the Great Enemy at all! Simply allowing the cycle of rebirth to begin. He/she/it goes and gives Slaanesh a hug or whatever to free the soul-cycle, while the Harlequins (who strengthen Cegorach, not Ynnead when they die, remember) go and smash up the Infinity Circuits, when the time is right.

With the link broken, even the Dark Kin could come out and play friendly if they wanted.

...And by friendly, I mean paint the stars themselves red with Mon-Keigh blood. Next time, we will not be merciful.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I know that all the chaos gods have existed, but could it be that when a god is "killed" they lose connection to the materium after a set time?


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Although of course Slaanesh has *always* been a part of the chaos pantheon, so that logic is flawed.


LALALA cant hear you 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Working on the assumption that Ynnead could destroy Slaanesh (impossible in my mind) can chaos endure without Slaanesh (again working on the assumption that Slaanesh could be removed from the equation)? Im not so sure.
> 
> _'No Chaos God can ever truly be victorious for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.'_
> 
> That is what _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ states in regards to the eternal nature of the Great Game. Whether or not this would also be the case if a single chaos power was removed rather than all but one is a different matter, but Slaanesh being removed from the equation would deduct from the concept that is chaos overall, thereby I would claim it is impossible.


What I get from that is not ALL the Chaos Gods cant be killed at one time. Nothing to do with just Slannesh taken out or replace. For all the talk of always have been in the Warp... Well our verse says Neigh.... Eldar Gods come to mind as warp beings. If Slaanesh got taken out then he would have Never Been by the warp rules.:wink: Ynnead on the other hand would have always been and always be.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock, you`re thinking in a time sense here, which you simply cannot do in regards to the warp. 

Think of it this way. In the warp, every god that can and ever will exist, does. All at once and none at all at the same time. It can be this way in the warpo because time does not exist. 

BUT!!!

In the materium, time does exist. Ynnead may not be real to us yet, but technically speaking if it is possible for him to be real, then he is. But because he has not yet been born in this timeline, he has no power or effect on the mortals of the materium _yet._ Slaanesh has always existed and always will. She simply had no power over the materium _before_ her birth, and will perhaps cease to have any influence _after_ Ynnead defeats her. 

In fact, if we follow this line of thought, it is entirely possible that all the gods of the warp still exist, it is merely their power and influence that are quelled. 

Of course, Khaine is perhaps the exception, having been driven from the warp, and now requiring sacrifice to become active, if only in part.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Thats what im saying. 

Also If Khain can be driven out of the warp and Eldar Gods taken out then Slaanesh being untouchable is BS as well. He/she is a Eldar God too.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Even though Slaanesh was created by the eldar, I would not refer to her as an eldar god. 

She feeds on lust, desire, love and all that jazz, concepts that other races are capable of emulating on their own levels. The reason Slaanesh was linked to the eldar was because they pushed the very limits of their own extremely heightened senses, and the effect this highly psychic race generated across a galactic empire sped up Slaanesh`s rise to power incredibly. 

Her nature is more akin to a Chaos God than an Eldar God, because she herself encompasses a much wider spectrum than most eldar deities did and is empowered by many races, not just eldar.


----------



## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

slaanesh is not an eldar god (not even close to being one) i miss spoke before khaine didnt kill any eldar gods but he did enslave a bunch and if you read the chaos daemon codex your find out the eldar god Isha was captured by Nurgle


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CardShark said:


> slaanesh is not an eldar god (not even close to being one) i miss spoke before khaine didnt kill any eldar gods but he did enslave a bunch and if you read the chaos daemon codex your find out the eldar god Isha was captured by Nurgle


I was under the impression that he imprisoned Vaul to his own anvil, I don`t think his aggression affected the other gods too much.

Isha was taken by Slaanesh like the others, but Nurgle fought Slaanesh for ownership of the godess because he fell in love with her.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Even though Slaanesh was created by the eldar, I would not refer to her as an eldar god.
> 
> She feeds on lust, desire, love and all that jazz, concepts that other races are capable of emulating on their own levels. The reason Slaanesh was linked to the eldar was because they pushed the very limits of their own extremely heightened senses, and the effect this highly psychic race generated across a galactic empire sped up Slaanesh`s rise to power incredibly.
> 
> Her nature is more akin to a Chaos God than an Eldar God, because she herself encompasses a much wider spectrum than most eldar deities did and is empowered by many races, not just eldar.


Shes a Eldar God. The Eldar Created her and Slaanesh emulates the Dark Eldar Society, not the other way around. The Daemons of Slaanesh are all Lithe, Graceful, and yet Fragile, becuase their base of the Eldar. It also strange she hungers more so for Eldar souls more than any other. By Eldar for Eldar. In all sense of the word a Eldar God that is a Chaos God.


----------



## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

It also strange she hungers more so for Eldar souls more than any other. By Eldar for Eldar. In all sense of the word a Eldar God that is a Chaos God.[/quote]

she wants their sould because they are worth more than any other soul shes not a eldar god they clearly say that shes a chaos god several times they never mention her being an eldar god. They say she was created my the eldar but the eldar dont worship her so she isn't an eldar god


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Shes a Eldar God. The Eldar Created her and Slaanesh emulates the Dark Eldar Society, not the other way around. The Daemons of Slaanesh are all Lithe, Graceful, and yet Fragile, becuase their base of the Eldar. It also strange she hungers more so for Eldar souls more than any other. By Eldar for Eldar. In all sense of the word a Eldar God that is a Chaos God.


Incorrect. Who created Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle? 

Answer: The cumulative races created by the Old Ones. They fed upon the emotions of them all long before humanity existed. And now, humanity is their greatest power source. 

Slaanesh is no different. Her birth may have been triggered by the eldar, but her power source is far wider. She feeds on human emotions, as well as many other psychic races (eg: the saruthai mentioned in _Eisenhorn_) and is ultimately represented by an emotional concept, not a face. Not a path.


----------



## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

During The Fall, the elder race was almost completely obliterated by the awakening of the Chaos God Slaanesh; during the fall, Slaanesh consumed/killed almost all of the Eldar Gods, except for the god of murder/war and the Goddess of healing. The Goddess of healing of was captured by Slaanesh to be tortured for eternity. Her cries of pain made the Chaos God Nurgle feel sorry for her, he wanted her as his companion, so he waged a long war against Slaanesh for the Eldar Goddess; Nurgle emerged victorious.


----------



## LunaticStrain (Apr 13, 2008)

This threat makes me wonder which Chaos Gods will 'die' and be replaced when the Emperor's warp self ascends to complete godhood and the war begins in earnest.

I'd like to see some of the Chaos Space Marine primarchs grow in power without being put down due to the Chaos Gods being busy with the Emperor, then when they least expect it the primarchs rise up and overthrow the Gods and become Gods themselves. Several of the primarchs would love the chance to kill the Chaos Gods that 'blessed' them, such as Mortarion and Alpharius to name two.

Granted it's hard for me to keep all the fluff straight, so this could all be wrong by now...


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

But without a corporeal form and the fact that they technically don`t exist at all, it`s rather difficult to actually kill a god persay. 

You can destroy their influence and seal them away from periods of time in the materium, but remember that the Chaos Gods are eternal in every sense of the word.


----------



## LunaticStrain (Apr 13, 2008)

I would argue that with the death of most of the Eldar Gods, as well as the birth of Slaneesh and other events that "Gods" can die and be born. But they represent emotion, so I don't think you could just 'kill' them and end that emotion, but let's say Angron kills Khorne and in that instant becomes the God of Rage and Blood. Because of the way Chaos works it would be like he always was the god of Rage and Blood.

Just a thought.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

LunaticStrain said:


> I would argue that with the death of most of the Eldar Gods, as well as the birth of Slaneesh and other events that "Gods" can die and be born. But they represent emotion, so I don't think you could just 'kill' them and end that emotion, but let's say Angron kills Khorne and in that instant becomes the God of Rage and Blood. Because of the way Chaos works it would be like he always was the god of Rage and Blood.
> 
> Just a thought.


I`ve said this somewhere before, maybe even this thread, but basically it works like this: 

The Gods of the warp inhabit a realm where time is meaningless and control is fleeting at best. The gods have always existed and yet simultaneously they do not exist at all. 

However, their influence over the mortal realm is what dictates their power. For example, there was a time when the eldar gods ruled over all, whilst the chaos gods grew silently in power beneath them. 

According to eldar mythology, Slaanesh "killed" the eldar gods and grew strong on their power. In terms of the materium, the eldar gods have no further influence (besides the obvious exceptions) on mortals. 

In the warp however, it is not likely that they are truly "dead," it is simply that they can no longer reach into the materium`s current timeline. Their influence is no more, but the entities are incorporeal beings to begin with and as such can`t technically "die."

It is the same with Slaanesh. Slaanesh has always existed in the warp, but had no influence until the fall of the eldar. Now she has become a dominant power alongside the other Chaos Gods. Speculatively, if and when Ynnead "kills" Slaanesh it will remove her influence from going any further in the materium`s timeline.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Slaanesh being an Eldar God depends on how you view being someone's god. 
1. You could say that she is an Eldar God because she created them.
or
2. You could say she is a Chaos God because they are the ones who worship her.

The answer is both. She was born of Eldar but is worshipped by chaos, therefore she is like the equivalent of, say, a corrupted Eldar Farseer. Eldar in nature, but subjective to the ruinous powers.


On gods being "killed", it's like what was said before, that when they are killed they don't simply disappear, but their influence is shrunken. Take for example the Roman gods when Christianity emerged. Technically one could call them "dead" because they are no longer around, BUT the reason they are no longer around is because nobody worhsips them anymore, so their sphere of influence sort of dies. 

Now this opens another door: If you kill, say, Khorne, for example, what happens.

Well, he himself would die, along with his influence, but his presence would not. However simply because a god is not there does not mean he is not _there_. For example, when you think about it, the gods may or may not be actually _around_, for all we know they may just be different ideas and thoughts/emotions that are sort of swimming around in the Warp. So when you kill one, their physical presence is gone, but that doesn't mean people don't still worship it. You kill the idea of _it_, but people will still pray to _it_, believing _it_ will answer them which may or may not happen, depending on the case.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> Slaanesh being an Eldar God depends on how you view being someone's god.
> 1. You could say that she is an Eldar God because she created them.
> or
> 2. You could say she is a Chaos God because they are the ones who worship her.
> ...


1: They created her, not She created them. Even that is innaccurate. They _triggered_ her birth, but she was growing long before the eldar began their decline.

2: Basically what I`m saying. All four Chaos Gods draw energy from all mortal races that are linked to the warp. The fact that the Eldar caused Slaanesh`s birth in no way dedicates her to being strictly an eldar deity. 

I do not see the analogy of an eldar farseer corrupted being relevant though. Slaanesh represents desire, passion and perfection. These in themselves are not corrupt concepts in any way until they are taken into their extremes. 

It`s like saying Khorne wasn`t always a blood craving warmonger when that is all he`s ever been. Slaanesh has never been anything but what she is now. There is no timeline remember, not for the gods. What they are now is what they`ve always been and what they always will be.


----------



## Swarmlord (Feb 19, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> 1: They created her, not She created them. Even that is innaccurate. They _triggered_ her birth, but she was growing long before the eldar began their decline.
> 
> 2: Basically what I`m saying. All four Chaos Gods draw energy from all mortal races that are linked to the warp. The fact that the Eldar caused Slaanesh`s birth in no way dedicates her to being strictly an eldar deity.
> 
> ...


 
:goodpost:


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> 1: They created her, not She created them. Even that is innaccurate. They triggered her birth, but she was growing long before the eldar began their decline.


I know Eldar created her, i have no idea why I made it the opposite.



> I do not see the analogy of an eldar farseer corrupted being relevant though. Slaanesh represents desire, passion and perfection. These in themselves are not corrupt concepts in any way until they are taken into their extremes.


I was trying to say that Slaanesh would be like a corrupted farseer because everything about her is Eldar, but she "works?" for the ruinous powers. I couldn't think of any other analogy.




> It`s like saying Khorne wasn`t always a blood craving warmonger when that is all he`s ever been. Slaanesh has never been anything but what she is now. There is no timeline remember, not for the gods. What they are now is what they`ve always been and what they always will be.


Where did you get this? I've re-read my post 3 times over and never did I hint thins. What I did hint was that maybe when a god "dies" his physical presence is gone, but people might still worship him because they believe he will return. That gods run on the worship they recieve from mortals, which they do.


----------



## LunaticStrain (Apr 13, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> It`s like saying Khorne wasn`t always a blood craving warmonger when that is all he`s ever been. Slaanesh has never been anything but what she is now. There is no timeline remember, not for the gods. What they are now is what they`ve always been and what they always will be.



We are in agreement. But time in the mortal realm DOES flow. So, while Slaanesh has always been and will always be 'awake' and 'god-like' in the Warp, in the material universe she was not felt until the time of her 'birth'. Based on this information it would be possible for her or any of the other Chaos Gods to lose their presence in the material world, and perhaps their influence in the Warp, for a time at least. This could theoretically happen from either 

1) The mortal races just forgetting that emotion over time, or 

2) Perhaps the worship of that emotion being passed to another. 

It being Chaos, there is very little chance that Khorne is the only rage 'God' in the Warp, most likely just the only "conscious" one. There is nothing saying that someone like Angron couldn't absorb more and more warp energy, while being warshipped by his followers, and grow in power until such time as he could rival Khorne for God of Rage. Khorne would have to be distracted for it to happen though.

Just what I think could be the case. None of this goes against what you've already said.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@Cyleune: Don`t worry about it, I just don`t see any connection myself. The Khorne example was my own to compare with your Slaaneshi one. 

@Lunatic: You are almost correct. But power like we are talking about cannot be shared. Khorne is the only god of rage that has ever existed and the only one that ever will. The only thing that has ever changed is the name by which he is known. 

Angron can never be a god on the same level of Khorne simply because Khorne does not exist on any such level as we could understand. Khorne has always existed, there is no beginning or end. Angron has origins, Khorne is the source of his power and Khorne has the ability to destroy the daemon primarch should he make that choice. 

Angron could simply never rival that power, his very existence is a triumph of the Blood God.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Well now, I'm not sure tif this has already been said, but since (according to chaos fluff there is no timeline and all gods are and ever will be) Ynnead is technically already "alive", why don't the Chaos gods simply gang up on him and consume him?


----------



## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

I think the point here is that GW refers to slaanesh as a chaos god therefore she's a chaos god.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> Well now, I'm not sure tif this has already been said, but since (according to chaos fluff there is no timeline and all gods are and ever will be) Ynnead is technically already "alive", why don't the Chaos gods simply gang up on him and consume him?


The warp is static. Meaning, no flow of time as we understand it. Though technically Ynnead does exist (assuming the Eldar are right) already but his influence simply has not been felt in the material timeline yet. 

Remember that Ynnead could no more be destroyed than any other god, only his influence on the materium can be stopped. In current material timeline he has no influence because the trigger to his ascension (ie: all eldar dead) has not yet occured. It`s basically the same story as Slaanesh; She existed before The Fall but had no say in the materium until the event of her "birth" was triggered.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Remember that Ynnead could no more be destroyed than any other god


I agree with this, but I just have one question then: How did the other Eldar Gods die, or were they consumed, meaning eaten? So in a way it's like the story of Cronus and Zues's siblings, where they are alive, just trapped in Cronus's stomach and Zues has to rescue them.

Or am I confused, because I think it says they were destroyed by Slaanesh.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> I agree with this, but I just have one question then: How did the other Eldar Gods die, or were they consumed, meaning eaten? So in a way it's like the story of Cronus and Zues's siblings, where they are alive, just trapped in Cronus's stomach and Zues has to rescue them.
> 
> Or am I confused, because I think it says they were destroyed by Slaanesh.


They would technically still exist, but Slaanesh`s dominance would prevent them having any effect on the material timeline from any point after the fall. 

So to the eldar, they might as well be dead. Support for my theory can be found in the tale of Isha. Supposedly, Slaanesh destroyed the eldar gods right? Yet in the daemon codex we read that Nurgle wrested Isha from Slaanesh`s grasp. 

So they must still exist. That`s my theory.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Yeah but it was always my understanding that they were all destroyed except Khaine, Laughing God (forgot his real name), and Isha, because Slaanesh took her as his(her?) bride somehow but Nurgle felt pity and I always thought stole (think I read it in Lexicanum), not fought but I'm probably wrong as your drawing from Codexs and I from a website the equivalent of Wikipedia.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lexi is sketchy at best, and I would never take any of it for granted. 

What I have cited is from codex and BL novels, and is therefore canon.


----------



## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

:laugh:I realized today that I am far too enamored by the 40k fluff and should officially be labelled "obsessed." The justification for this is that I just spent several hours reading over each and every post in this thread. lol 

Anywho, on topic: Serpion has the absolute best view of "gods" as we could consider them in the 40k 'verse. Death and life have no meaning for them. "Killing" them is simply stripping them of their influence, and their "birth" is merely a rise to power over the material universe. 

Theoretically, there is a god for every single concept and emotion waiting for an opportunity to be "created" in the material universe. However, the current timeline places a huge emphasis on the emotional excesses epitmomized by the Chaos gods, thus they hold all the power. Unlimited POWER! :laugh:

Were humanity to coalesce their dead as the eldar do, I'm fairly certain they too would contribute to the rise of Ynnead.

Also, the eldar mythos has the legend of the Rhana Dandra, the time when the Phoenix Lords unite the eldar with Ynnead to put and end to the Chaos gods. This would result in their "destruction," the loss of their influence on the material plane and the void filled with Ynnead and other powers.

The cycle has to be complete for reality to remain stable. it goes right along with the idea of universal balance. You simply cannot remove a fact of existence without, gee, horribly destablizing existence 

The void must always be filled. As it stands, the Chaos gods fill that void nicely. :victory:


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Were humanity to coalesce their dead as the eldar do, I'm fairly certain they too would contribute to the rise of Ynnead.


I doubt it would, as only Eldar souls contribute to Ynnead.




> Also, the eldar mythos has the legend of the Rhana Dandra, the time when the Phoenix Lords unite the eldar with Ynnead to put and end to the Chaos gods. This would result in their "destruction," the loss of their influence on the material plane and the void filled with Ynnead and other powers.


Yes but I don't think the Phoenix Lords will be around during that time as Ynnead will only birth himself when every last Eldar is dead and Phoenix Lords are Eldar. But remember that in Rhana Dandra that Slaanesh is the only target and the only Chaos God Ynnead will try to kill.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, the Rhana Dandra is the final conflict between the Materium and the Chaos gods. It is said that it will result in the destruction of both.

It stands to reason the Ynnead will be involved and if so will likely form a role in the new order. 

Presuming of course that this final battle ever takes place.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> OH! and i have found something to make you eat your words Child! haha. p.8 of CSM 4th edition states that "The warps energies and constant flow has been in motion for billions of years", it does not state that the Gods were made or born in any of those billions of years thou because it does not give a solid time or date as to which of those billions of years they were born. It simply states that the warp has been in motion for a long time, and then states that the Gods were originally mindless and formless beings given conscious over a very long time of flowing in the warp.


I said i'd come back to this when I had my source material back with me, sorry it has taken so long. 

The exact wording in the codex is:

_"In the warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through Warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace.

These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos gods were born - vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals. As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew, so too did their hopes and dreams, their rage and wars, their love and hatred, feeding the Chaos Gods and nurturing their power."_

To put it in a way we mortals can understand it, the chaos gods had been coalescing for _"billions of years"_ within the warp. Further supporting my previous statements that the first three gaining consciousness during the Age of Terra is a mere coincidence, and not as a direct result of humanity.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I agree with you CoTE on that one and with these statements made such as:

Chaos Gods have always been around, but in dormancy until some extreme event happens to cause the Awakening of a God. 

Chaos Gods can not destroy one another or else destroy Chaos all together. Makes me think that Tzeentch might know this so he continues with his plot in the great game to prevent this from happening by hindering the power of the other Gods as much as he can. Though this is mostly speculation from me and has no fluff backing. 

The Eldar Gods are not dead, but simply repressed and imprisoned inside Slannesh. Isha with Nurgle. Khaine shattered and in the material plane. Chegorach, hiding in the Webway. 

Warsmith- A problem with your human Ynnead is that the Eldar codex states that human souls are not as psychically attuned or aware as Eldar souls. It says that when human souls go into the warp and are consumed they do not know that they are being consumed, while the Eldar souls are actually aware and alive so when they get eaten, say for example by Slannesh their doomed for eternity by this kind of soul awarness and tortured.


----------



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> The Eldar Gods are not dead, but simply repressed and imprisoned inside Slannesh. Isha with Nurgle. Khaine shattered and in the material plane. Chegorach, hiding in the Webway.


So it WAS inspired (maybe) by the Greek myth....



Well now here's a thought that CoTE's post gave me: I think in Codex:Eldar it says that the harlequins know how to actually KILL a god. So, thoughts?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> I think in Codex:Eldar it says that the harlequins know how to actually KILL a god. So, thoughts?


Umm.. what? Fancy quoting the codex to support that? Because I don't recall anything like that.


----------



## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> A problem with your human Ynnead is that the Eldar codex states that human souls are not as psychically attuned or aware as Eldar souls. It says that when human souls go into the warp and are consumed they do not know that they are being consumed, while the Eldar souls are actually aware and alive so when they get eaten, say for example by Slannesh their doomed for eternity by this kind of soul awarness and tortured.


For the unnumberable trillions, yes; for the psychically gifted (astropaths, sanctioned pyskers, Librarians, and some inquisitors) the situation is different and they are aware.

However, I looked back over the codex and found a more pressing flaw in my theory. Ynnead is supposed to coalesce from the eldar souls collected in the _Infinity Matrixes of the craftworlds,_ rather than the warp. So naturally no human would contribute. Especially since any non-eldar psychic presences would be purged by the warp spiders.

I should really start posting with resources handy :fool:


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

ckcrawford said:


> I'd like to think Asuryan was able to survive if Khaine was able to.


Asuryan was a major powerfull god. Slanesh proved its worth when it consumed it.
Asuryan was just to close to what Slanesh represents.

The Eldar are super-sensitive to the warp.


Khaine only survived becouse he is evil and a badass.
Khaine survived becouse be belonged rightly to Khorne and Khorne saved him only to deprive Slanesh. 
The difference between Khaine and Khorn is only;
Khorne is the representation of humanity, the same way as Slanesh represents Eldar.
Khorne is the human god of the same things, Khaine is the eldar god of the same thing.
Morally there is no difference between Khorne and Khaine.
As I said before, Khain is not the dominating impulse of his species,
Khorne is the dominating impulse of mankind.

All the Eldar gods are temporary who raise and fall, while only the Chaos Gods are more almost eternal.
Slanesh have not always existed but their principes are powerfull and eternal, they are kind of roles or purposes.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Eldar gods are more specific and refined in their nature. 

The Chaos Gods are, to put in simple terms, raw emotion. They have a far more scope and power, and are empowered by more races.


----------

