# Blood Ravens - Odd new info - Spoilerish



## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Just reread The First Heretic, noticed two phrases in the text that are classic Blood Ravens phrases. Admittedly people question the books and games as credible fluff, but its interesting.

The phrases are; 

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

and 

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt


Of course the author could just have swiped them because they are cool.
Also the blind survivor of Monarchia is called Cyrene the name of a planet connected to the Blood Ravens.

Is this a mere interesting tribute or a sly attempt to claim the Blood Ravens as related in part to the Word Bearers Legion, as opposed to the usual references to the 1000 sons, though as a last bit of food for thought they claim decendency from the "Unknown Primarch" might be one of the missing two Lost Primarchs. 

Any thoughts?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

It's an interesting thought. At the moment, the connection to the Thousand Sons seems somewhat more, I'm not sure credible is the word; maybe it would be better to say that there are more points of similarity (the preponderance of Librarians, the vision of ?Ahriman in ATS, the Eldar confusing the TS and BR) between the TS and BR, so that linking them just makes more sense.
Maybe the use of those phrases is more about showing us the subtle, almost hidden influence the WB have on the Imperium, be it the basis and organisation of the Imperial faith or the modes of thought of the powerbrokers of Inquis and Ecclesiarchy.
Cyrene, however- that's an interesting connection you've made. I suppose nothing is set in stone, especially when it comes to the descendants of traitors existing as staunchly loyal guardians of Humanity.

GFP


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Eliphas the Inheritor calls Davian Thule his 'brother' in Dark Crusade, and in Chaos Rising Eliphas promises to Abaddon that he will destroy the Blood Ravens. Defeating the Blood Ravens in Dark Crusade with the chaos resulted in Eliphas gaining Abaddon's favour. That makes me think that BR are a split off of either Black Legion or Word Bearers. Why does Abaddon hate the Blood Ravens? Because he wants to rid the Black Legion of the stain caused by some of them being loyalist. If the BR are destroyed, then the Black Legion is purged of 'taint', and Abaddon gets more credibility in the Eye (Imagine the shame of having a full thousand of your Marines stay loyal, the other legions would think you couldn't control your own soldiers. Thus, they don't want to send their forces to be led by who they think is an incompetent leader.) 

Well, that's my conspiracy.

Midnight


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> Just reread The First Heretic, noticed two phrases in the text that are classic Blood Ravens phrases. Admittedly people question the books and games as credible fluff, but its interesting.
> 
> The phrases are;
> 
> ...


The first phrase is kinda a usual one used here and there, but the other two connections seems pretty interesting! But it is their battle-cry, so yes perhaps. I think maybe ADB added them there to make more theories or contradictions for fans to interpretate, especially since its twisted whether it is TS or WB the BR comes from.



MidnightSun said:


> Eliphas the Inheritor calls Davian Thule his 'brother' in Dark Crusade, and in Chaos Rising Eliphas promises to Abaddon that he will destroy the Blood Ravens. Defeating the Blood Ravens in Dark Crusade with the chaos resulted in Eliphas gaining Abaddon's favour. That makes me think that BR are a split off of either Black Legion or Word Bearers. Why does Abaddon hate the Blood Ravens? Because he wants to rid the Black Legion of the stain caused by some of them being loyalist. If the BR are destroyed, then the Black Legion is purged of 'taint', and Abaddon gets more credibility in the Eye (Imagine the shame of having a full thousand of your Marines stay loyal, the other legions would think you couldn't control your own soldiers. Thus, they don't want to send their forces to be led by who they think is an incompetent leader.)


Eliphas making that statement is something many have agreed upon just being a taunting, not a remark that they came from the same Legion. You did put it in a interesting thing though, why is the Black Legion so fixed upong the BR? A crazy idea sprung to my notion though. As you know Garro is currently during the Heresy collecting Astartes from both loyal and traitor Legions. Why not be the founder of BR then? Since many belive, but its highly unlikely, that he creates the Grey Knights.

As said, just a crazy thought. My theories are as follows, BR comes from TS, perhaps some survivors of the fleet that fled before SW came and Garro is creating a pre-Inquisition, not necessarly becoming a part of it as he has no psychic abillities. BL though, thats still a question-mark for me.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still don't see the Thousand Sons connection myself, beyond the high psyker count, but even then i don't see it as they don't have the genetic flaw that is built into the gene seed, and even with the high number of psykers they have, its still nothing compared to the Sons who were almost all(if not all) psykers. The seeking knowledge thing, well desiring knowledge is nothing unusual, especially if you don't know your own background. The 'Knowledge is power' quote has been around much longer than the Blood Ravens, it's a popular quote across all sorts of things. And as for the vision the remembrancer had in Thousand Sons, i think people just want to see Blood Ravens in it, the whole vision fits perfectly to the immediate future of the Sons.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

If I am not mistaken, the quote "Knowledge is power, guard it well" was first coined by the Mechanicus?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Some good replies.
No mention of the left field, dark horse possibility of an Unknown Primarch being one of the two unknown primarchs.

Also its always possible they are formed many sources.

Also its not fully important to know the founding members of the Blood Ravens chapter, because the most important aspect of the mystery - which isnt mentioned very often, is where do the present Blood Ravens get their current supply of gene seed from.

Another theory might also be - that the planets that were recruiting grounds for the traitor legions that were still loyal, kind of like Caliban in reverse. So an example might be; a planet used as a recruiting world for a legion has a couple of thousand recruits ready to serve rhe Emperor, the Legion turns traitor and the recruits stay loyal and overthrow the academy and declare for the Imperium, might be a few like that.

Would explain in similar terms to the Dark Angels, the Primarch is kept secret from all the chapter except the few at the top in the know, and quite franky would destroy all evidence to prevent the chapter finding out and the general imperium finding out and loosing face. Also at the time of the Heresy you might be happy to destroy all connection with your original Primarch if he was a traitor, quite frankly - screw him.

So the only real question is where the gene seed comes from to feed the Blood Ravens in the 40th Centuary.
The 1000 Sons gene seed was the most unstable of all the Legions and needed Magnus himself to keep it stable. 
So they may have been original 1000 sons in the chapter but I very much doubt that 1000 sons gene seed is used today.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I think the blood ravens are a word bearer's descending chapter, not only the quotes but also eliaphas extreme curiosity with them. 

I for one think the BR being a TS descendant is too obvious, yes they have a plethora of psykers, but unlike the TS they are not that common. People seem to overlook that the WB legion was highly psychic as well, especially their primarch who though wasn't as potent as magnus was above most others.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

There is another reason to want the BR destroyed. Besides them being a loyalist sect of [whoever] it is revealed in the DoW thired book, _Tempest,_ that: 



There is a second astronomicon beacon onboard the BR Battle Barge. It`s presence is known only to the Order Psykana of the BR chapter (and probably someone on Terra in the Ordo Astra Telepathica) and its purpose is speculativ, one theory points to it being a signal of sorts to guide the lost back into he light, or something along those lines. 


Knowing this, it`s not hard to understand why certain factions would want them gone.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

The more I think about it the more im convinced, 40k gene seed source is the real key to the Blood Ravens.

10 thousand years after the Horus Heresy - what Primarch is providing the Gene Seed of the Blood Ravens today.

They must get new supplies from some where??????

Just think about it, really think about it. 

The merest tiny possibility that the current 40k Blood Ravens are using in any amount from any source the gene seed of a fallen primarch is way beyond a big secret its a massive secret - a secret that would be nothing short of heresy in the eyes of the inquisition.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

But the geneseed used to create new recruits does not come directly from the primarch in any chapter, it is harvested from fallen battle brothers. 

The BR would use the geneseed of their own without ever knowing where the origina source is from.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Agreed, also I was under the impression that the Mechanicus can "grow" some Geneseed although it takes forever. But that was discussed in a different thread.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Gene-seed, as I think I understand it, after implantation, its duplicates itself, meaning it grows into a second gene-seed. Thats why the new reqruits are important. Not just because they become new Astartes, but they grow the factor of making double the numbers that way. Otherwise the Astartes would have died out long ago, as much gene-seed is destroyed before its recoveredor lost. In other terms, one reqruit can create further along the path another new 2 reqruits.

Also, which Ive wondered, is how they grow the other 18 organs a Astartes need, which if interpretated this correct, is grown out of the gene-seed. 

More can be read, if youre not too critical. 
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed



Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Agreed, also I was under the impression that the Mechanicus can "grow" some Geneseed although it takes forever. But that was discussed in a different thread.


The Mechanicum doesnt "grow" the gene-seed, they harvest/collects it at Mars for creation of new Chapters. Its like each year, some of the gene-seed goes back to the Chapter to make new Astartes, then some is brought to Mars for testing so its not tainted and the stored prepared to create new Chapters.  I hope Im making sense.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> There is another reason to want the BR destroyed. Besides them being a loyalist sect of [whoever] it is revealed in the DoW thired book, _Tempest,_ that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weeeeeeeeellllll...I hate to pull the Multilaser card, but concerning the novels, one does have to remember that they've been written by C.S. "Multilaser" Goto whose mutilation of 40k lore is infamous in some circles. Relic has contradicted the novels before as well, specifically that of Chris Roberson but I haven't seen them reference anything written by Goto either. In fact, the only bit of written lore about the Blood Ravens I've seen Relic consistently keep with is their IA article.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> Weeeeeeeeellllll...I hate to pull the Multilaser card, but concerning the novels, one does have to remember that they've been written by C.S. "Multilaser" Goto whose mutilation of 40k lore is infamous in some circles. Relic has contradicted the novels before as well, specifically that of Chris Roberson but I haven't seen them reference anything written by Goto either. In fact, the only bit of written lore about the Blood Ravens I've seen Relic consistently keep with is their IA article.


I`m aware of that, mate. But remember that everything BL publishes is sanctioned by GW, meaning they are considered Canon. 

The same has not been said of the Vid games, and nor would it, because they are designed as video games, not lore. 

Astartes do not build bases in that manner, nor do they have endless numbers to throw into a skirmish. 

And I do not believe in taking Relic`s word over GW`s on a matter like this. They only have the license to use GW intellectual property in their games, they are not sanctioned to rewrite 40k Fluff. 

"Multilaser" had more say over the fluff than Relic did, and kept reasonably close to established background. 



Short response: What Relic says means fuck all. Goto`s novels are backed by BL and hence GW, meaning they hold infinitely more weight than any video game.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Sooooo.....
The Mechanicum on mars must test the gene seed - or have a sample or at least have a record of the gene-seed of the blood ravens, we are agreed on that at least.

Im just going down this path because the nature of 40k blood raven gene-seed will be a perfect way of knowing which primarch it ultimately descended from.

Or at least which gene-seed they are supposed to be using - they might have a secret stash of forbidden fallen primarch gene-seed hidden in the floor boards.

Also when being called brothers by a chaos marine, I am reminded of Istvaan IV - the relationship between fallen and loyal marines of the same legion is not known to be cordial.

I would conclude that the chapter master and the chapter high-ups would be in the know, thats why they destroy any evidence they find.

Another way of looking at it, if the chapter primarch was a loyalist - they would have no need to hide his identity.

I am tempted to believe they may be decended from one of the missing primarchs. If they are not of a loyal primarch, then they must have got permission from someone to exist - or they forged their credentials during one of the foundings and slipped through the net.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I`m aware of that, mate. But remember that everything BL publishes is sanctioned by GW, meaning they are considered Canon.
> 
> The same has not been said of the Vid games, and nor would it, because they are designed as video games, not lore.
> 
> ...


I would not be so quick to dismiss any from the Dawn of War series as non-canon if I were you. If you look at the credits of these games, there's a section that has Games Workshop employees that helped with the development of the games, including the Intellectual Property Manager. So if you consider material from the Black Library canon than you can't really reject the canon of the Dawn of War series. Hell, without Dawn of War, the Blood Ravens would just be one of the dozens and dozens of minor Chapters appear in a BL novel or short story or a minor Codex reference. All this recent stuff with the Thousand Sons and like from the BL is directly because of DoW and the popularity the Blood Ravens from that. They've realized that many new Warhammer 40k fans (myself included) were first introduced to this wonderful grim dark universe through DoW and are leaving nods to said fans. And actually, if you look at what the BL has actually contributed to the BR since DoW, it's actually very little in way of solid, concrete fact on the BR, especially about their origins.

Also, what's this assumption that just because Abaddon wants the BR destroyed or corrupted that they must be somehow descended from the BL? When I first saw the ending of Chaos Rising, I figured that Eliphas promised the destruction or corruption of the BR in return for being brought back by Abaddon after the events of Dark Crusade. For Abaddon, the destruction or better yet, the corruption of an entire Space Marine Chapter is a significant victory. It's likely that Abaddon's anger against Eliphas is due to his servant's failure to deliver what he promised rather than because of some long forgotten grudge.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Also, what's this assumption that just because Abaddon wants the BR destroyed or corrupted that they must be somehow descended from the BL? When I first saw the ending of Chaos Rising, I figured that Eliphas promised the destruction or corruption of the BR in return for being brought back by Abaddon after the events of Dark Crusade. For Abaddon, the destruction or better yet, the corruption of an entire Space Marine Chapter is a significant victory. It's likely that Abaddon's anger against Eliphas is due to his servant's failure to deliver what he promised rather than because of some long forgotten grudge.


That would be my guess as well!


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I never finished Chaos Rising but as for the The BR and TS relation well it could even be a ruse to make the BR believe they decended for the TS...


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## imperialfist13 (Feb 2, 2011)

I cant see them being from either chapter, deifinitely not Thousand Sons their geneseed was only stabilised by Magnus' pact with Choronzon??. Without that boon no subsequent legion could of came about.

Word Bearers,.... although it may of been disproved but the 40 companies with Talgron would be a nice way of proving it. Too much hoping in that though. baring that they could be Blood Angels/Raven Guard the naming seems a little to nice for me.
The stigma attached to being a Word Bearer successor/offshoot would be worse because they not only turned traitor, they were rubbish. That would be the reason I would keep it quiet not the traitor bit....


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Another evidence is (I havent read the books personally but I heard from someone who has) and that is a conversation between a Blood Raven and Ahriman (Thousand Son descendant) when Ahriman asks something like "Don't you think its odd that the Thousand Sons original colours were red regular Astartes and blue for the Librarians?" Hinting they have the same colors.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Ya know they maybe from the same decent as the 1k Sons but is it possible that its a way to trick them into following the same path as the 1ksons


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> "Don't you think its odd that the Thousand Sons original colours were red regular Astartes and blue for the Librarians?" Hinting they have the same colors.


But thing is they don't really share the same colors. The BR have a darker blood red color while the original TS had a paler red color. Similarly, there are plenty of SM Chapters/Legions/Warbands that have the color red as the main color of their armor. Secondly, blue is the color of Librarians for most SM Chapters period. I think only the SW's Rune Priests and Mephiston of the BA doesn't wear blue armor. Of course before Mephiston became Mephiston and was just Lexicanium Calistarius, he wore blue.

So the armor really means nothing. It's purely a cosmetic thing than anything else. Most likely Ahriman's words were mere trickery to a BR that was suffering from some memory loss.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Where the hell does Ahriman say that? Is this Goto again? As the Thousand Sons all wore red in the heresy era, none wore blue


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Where the hell does Ahriman say that? Is this Goto again? As the Thousand Sons all wore red in the heresy era, none wore blue


Aye. It's from the last of Goto's BR novels. So if you don't believe in what he writes, it's safe to ignore that completely.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> But thing is they don't really share the same colors. The BR have a darker blood red color while the original TS had a paler red color. Similarly, there are plenty of SM Chapters/Legions/Warbands that have the color red as the main color of their armor. Secondly, blue is the color of Librarians for most SM Chapters period. I think only the SW's Rune Priests and Mephiston of the BA doesn't wear blue armor. Of course before Mephiston became Mephiston and was just Lexicanium Calistarius, he wore blue.
> 
> So the armor really means nothing. It's purely a cosmetic thing than anything else. Most likely Ahriman's words were mere trickery to a BR that was suffering from some memory loss.


Oh yes, its only armor but Ahriman saying this its as much evidence as Eliphias gretting them brothers, meaning both are vague. And if Im not misstaken, the Libriarian in Chaos Rising wears the colors grey, which means he's not codex following. And was just mentioning it for people to know. k:



Angel of Blood said:


> Where the hell does Ahriman say that? Is this Goto again? As the Thousand Sons all wore red in the heresy era, none wore blue


Hahah oh it is him, but I havent perosnally read the book, only some other guy posted a while ago.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Would it seriously kill Goto to do even a little research?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Oh yes, its only armor but Ahriman saying this its as much evidence as Eliphias gretting them brothers, meaning both are vague. And if Im not misstaken, the Libriarian in Chaos Rising wears the colors grey, which means he's not codex following. And was just mentioning it for people to know. k:


http://www.gamers.at/images/screenshots/screenshot_dow2_r_2010-03-08_11-47-53-85_30123.jpg

No, Jonah's armor is still blue, albeit a rather dark UCLA-ish blue. The Blood Ravens are mentioned in their IA article to be a Codex chapter and they otherwise follow typical Codex organizational standards. Mind you, what kind of weird-ass Codex mentions throwing together squads of 3-4 under a Force Commander with no Command Squad to speak of is beyond me. :laugh:



Angel of Blood said:


> Would it seriously kill Goto to do even a little research?


You never know. It might. But regardless of whether it does or doesn't, he'd be doing the world a favor.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm still of the belief that the Blood Ravens are descendants of the Thousand Sons and no other chapter (seriously, Ahriman basically says it in DoW).


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