# Valdor beats Horus in sparring match...source?!



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Which source contains this incident?
I've seen this thrown around on this forum and others to point out how good Valdor is but no one ever cites a reference...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I had a feeling this was BS


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Checked out the _First Heretic_ and it's not in there, while a quick scan back through _Blood Games_ found nothing either. I haven't got _Collected Visions_ on hand so someone else would have to verify that one. Apparently it was in one of the 'Horus Heresy' books, but I having never come across it myself I'm starting to become vaguely suspicious too...


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah, it's said several places that Valdor is the strongest human psycher to ever live. But, that doesn't include the primarchs or the Emperor. So, I would think that at least Magnus and the Emperor are both stronger.

My question is when would Valdor have ever had the chance to fight Horus? From the time the Emperor left the crusades till the time that Horus arrived in orbit around Terra, Valdor remained on Terra. And, the only people who fought Horus directly were Sanguinius and the Emperor. 

In the latest Blood Angels fluff, it mentions that Sanguinius had several of his personal guard with him when they teleported onto Horus' flagship. But this, to me, is more uncorrellated fluff only brought in to sell the new Sanguinary Guard models.

1. You have to be wearing Terminator Armor to be teleported.
2. None of the older fluff mentions any others with the Emperor other than Sanguinius.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

jaysen said:


> Yeah, it's said several places that Valdor is the strongest human psycher to ever live.But, that doesn't include the primarchs or the Emperor. So, I would think that at least Magnus and the Emperor are both stronger.


?
Malcador you mean



jaysen said:


> My question is when would Valdor have ever had the chance to fight Horus? From the time the Emperor left the crusades till the time that Horus arrived in orbit around Terra, Valdor remained on Terra. And, the only people who fought Horus directly were Sanguinius and the Emperor.


They sparred at one point. Probably before all the Primarchs were found. I tried looking for the exact quote but I can't find it but I do know it exists because I myself read it.



jaysen said:


> 1. You have to be wearing Terminator Armor to be teleported.
> 2. None of the older fluff mentions any others with the Emperor other than Sanguinius.


Collected Visions has several Custodes with the Big E if I recall correctly and I believe you can use a teleporter beacon without Terminator armor. I am sure I have read a few incidents where that has occurred. 

Top of my head, Alpharius and the group with him when they confronted the Cabal. Alpharius might of been wearing Primarch/Terminator armor but I'm not sure about the rest.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

one does not need terminator armor to teleport.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I tried looking for the exact quote but I can't find it but I do know it exists because I myself read it.


OK, this is the best we got so far...which, no offense to you, doesn't really prove anything
in your memory, does the account mention Valdor winning?

I've also seen claims that Valdor beat Russ in sparring...


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

jaysen said:


> Yeah, it's said several places that Valdor is the strongest human psycher to ever live. But, that doesn't include the primarchs or the Emperor. So, I would think that at least Magnus and the Emperor are both stronger.
> 
> My question is when would Valdor have ever had the chance to fight Horus? From the time the Emperor left the crusades till the time that Horus arrived in orbit around Terra, Valdor remained on Terra. And, the only people who fought Horus directly were Sanguinius and the Emperor.
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure that Sanguinius brought troops with him per fluff for many editions, and was not "just" included, and where the hell do you get that you have to be wearing terminator armor to teleport? Someone might wanna tell that to the Grey Knights then.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> OK, this is the best we got so far...which, no offense to you, doesn't really prove anything
> in your memory, does the account mention Valdor winning?
> 
> I've also seen claims that Valdor beat Russ in sparring...


I hit control + F with Horus Rising opened and typed in Valdor and got nothing. 

That's as far as I'm going to go looking for the quote lol.

And no you didn't.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I hit control + F with Horus Rising opened and typed in Valdor and got nothing.
> That's as far as I'm going to go looking for the quote lol.


well, I think it's safe to say this whole Valdor business is custodes [email protected]



> And no you didn't.


didn't what?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm just surprised none of the fluff nerds on the other forums you frequent haven't supplied you with the quote.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You don't even need to be wearing _armour_ to be teleported.

See Ollanius Pious.

Midnight


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm just surprised none of the fluff nerds on the other forums you frequent haven't supplied you with the quote.


I asked this question on another forum, and the thread went pretty much the same as here
no quotes...


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

I remember this too. I'll go digging through the books to see where it was. There's only a few books with the Custodes anyways, so it shouldn't be too hard to find.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

In the original Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Index Astartes I believe it's said that only Sanguinius and Leman Russ where the only Primarchs to beat Horus in a duel and that the only Primarch he hadn't faced was Corax and due to recent fluff developments Omegon or Alpharius possibly to.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

SoulGazer said:


> I remember this too. I'll go digging through the books to see where it was. There's only a few books with the Custodes anyways, so it shouldn't be too hard to find.


After trying the two books mentioned earlier I've now checked _A Thousand Sons_ too - no luck either. Currently checking _Prospero Burns_...


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> In the original Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Index Astartes I believe it's said that only Sanguinius and Leman Russ where the only Primarchs to beat Horus in a duel and that the only Primarch he hadn't faced was Corax and due to recent fluff developments Omegon or Alpharius possibly to.


The fluff you are speaking of, states that Horus trained all the primarchs in the theatrics of war and combat, except for Curze. Of all the primarchs he trained, only Russ, Sanguinas, and one other were able to defeat him.

It does not state he never dueled Corax, it states he never trained Curze due to his upbringing on Nostramo. This is also not from a Codex, but from a very old White dwarf article.

Additionally, for all those wondering about the dueling between the custodes and Horus etc, check Blood games.

Cheers.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lux said:


> The fluff you are speaking of, states that Horus trained all the primarchs in the theatrics of war and combat, except for Curze. Of all the primarchs he trained, only Russ, Sanguinas, and one other were able to defeat him.
> 
> It does not state he never dueled Corax, it states he never trained Curze due to his upbringing on Nostramo. This is also not from a Codex, but from a very old White dwarf article.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Corax was involved in it as well, apart from Corax telling him to f-off after an argument.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Lux said:


> Additionally, for all those wondering about the dueling between the custodes and Horus etc, check Blood games.


Not in my copy. Having just checked it again, they do talk about what has possibly caused Horus to rebel but not of any personal clashes. Feel free to quote me out with the correct page if I'm wrong.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Pretty sure Corax was involved in it as well, apart from Corax telling him to f-off after an argument.


To what I know, the argument between Corax and Horus the one where they reputedly nearly came to blows, was not about any duels or combat training. It happened during the great crusade, while he was under Horus's command.

I also doubt Corax was the third listed, due to that in the audio book Corax feared the thought of having to fight Angron in combat, believing he would be killed, however he muses that Horus would be one of few who would likely defeat Angron.

So I highly doubt it was Corax, and I know it was not Angron.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lux said:


> To what I know, the argument between Corax and Horus the one where they reputedly nearly came to blows, was not about any duels or combat training. It happened during the great crusade, while he was under Horus's command.
> 
> I also doubt Corax was the third listed, due to that in the audio book Corax feared the thought of having to fight Angron in combat, believing he would be killed, however he muses that Horus would be one of few who would likely defeat Angron.
> 
> So I highly doubt it was Corax, and I know it was not Angron.


I could of swore he said he didn't know about Corax's ability as he'd never duelled him.

I was just trying to separate the "who beat Horus" with the feud Horus had with Corax though, I wasn't trying to connect them. It could possible be the Khan as Khan is reputedly the best swordsmen of all the Primarchs.

I wouldn't take much from what a Primarch's opinion on other Primarchs though, Dorn believed he could beat every Primarch but feared Curze, not to say he actually could beat them all though actually.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I could of swore he said he didn't know about Corax's ability as he'd never duelled him.
> 
> I was just trying to separate the "who beat Horus" with the feud Horus had with Corax though, I wasn't trying to connect them. It could possible be the Khan as Khan is reputedly the best swordsmen of all the Primarchs.
> 
> I wouldn't take much from what a Primarch's opinion on other Primarchs though, Dorn believed he could beat every Primarch but feared Curze, not to say he actually could beat them all though actually.


In the end, they all had their own opinions, Corax held himself in high esteem in terms of martial combat ability, he states so himself in the audio book. However he viewed Horus, Angron, and Sanguinas above him.

In the old White dwarf article, Horus viewed Curze as an unknown, and was defeated by Russ, Sanguinas and a unknown third.

Dorn believes he is superior to Horus in combat ability and that Horus's tactics are predictable, however he fears Curze because he is unable to read him or predict him.

All the primarchs had their own opinions on who was best and where they ranked due to how each used different standards and mediums for their rankings.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lux said:


> one of few who would likely defeat Angron.


Corax thinks that Horus has a chance, not that Horus would likely win.



Lux said:


> Dorn believes he is superior to Horus in combat ability and that Horus's tactics are predictable, however he fears Curze because he is unable to read him or predict him.





Words_of_Truth said:


> Dorn believed he could beat every Primarch but feared Curze


Where is it ever stated that Dorn fears to _fight_ Curze in single combat?
His fear of Cruze stems from Curze's prophecies of doom, Dorn fears that Curze's predictions will come true.

Seriously, we don't have a direct description of how Curze ends up on top of Dorn, but we do know this:
1) Dorn confronts Curze verbally
2) Curze snaps and blacks out
3) Curze is crouching on top of an unconscious Dorn 

Is it really that hard to do the math? Given the two primarchs' personalities, would Dorn suddenly attack Curze? It's far more likely that Curze jumped an off-guard Dorn, unless you guys think that Dorn was in a fighting stance, waiting for Curze to attack while he berated Curze.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MontytheMighty said:


> Corax thinks that Horus has a chance, not that Horus would likely win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Erh The Lightning Tower directly after he says he can probably beat other notable Primarchs like Horus and Fulgrim.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Erh The Lightning Tower directly after he says he can probably beat other notable Primarchs like Horus and Fulgrim


would you mind providing the Lightning Tower quote you're referring to? thanks


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MontytheMighty said:


> would you mind providing the Lightning Tower quote you're referring to? thanks


The whole section with Malcador when he uses the Tarot, as soon as he sees the card he starts to sweat because he knows it's Curze. Him telling the truth wasn't what scared him, it was what Curze did to him, Malcador says he doesn't fear horus but fears the terror that walks behind him.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The whole section with Malcador when he uses the Tarot, as soon as he sees the card he starts to sweat because he knows it's Curze. Him telling the truth wasn't what scared him, it was what Curze did to him, Malcador says he doesn't fear horus but fears the terror that walks behind him.


I've read that part though
it never says that Dorn fears Curze for mauling him


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Listening to it right now.

Dorn is petrified of Curze but mostly because his visions of the heresy were true all along.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MontytheMighty said:


> I've read that part though
> it never says that Dorn fears Curze for mauling him


First he said he feared the reason for it all then Malcador started using the Lesser Arcanoi, Rogal Immediately breathed "_he_ used them"
He then went Pale, then Malcador said he's the one to ever hurt Dorn and that he nearly killed him. 

Then a little further on Malcador says "Rogal, he is what you are truly afraid of, because he is fear incarnate. No other Primarch uses terror as a weapon like Curze does. You are not afraid of Horus and his sallow heretics. You are afraid of the fear that sides with him, the night terror that advances alongside the traitors.

It does go on to sat he also feared the truth, but without being "blunt" it's clear to me he fears Curze for a number of things, among them the fact he's the only one to ever hurt Dorn and nearly kill him.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Listening to it right now.
> 
> Dorn is petrified of Curze but mostly because his visions of the heresy were true all along.


I dunno what's included and what's not included within the audio vision.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

sorry i cant find the source but i have read it written that valdor beat horus in a duel so its out there somewhere. probably was collected visions as it the only book i have of detailed heresy stuff.

i kinda feel this could be used to explain why the emperor decided to end horus if BL have valdor turned to ash by horus on the vengeful spirit. having a standard marine be the reason is lame but if the emperor knows that valdor couldnt be beat by a normal horus then He knows he will have to end horus after seeing valdor killed by just a glance.

hell they need to beef valdor fluff back up since abnett ruined him taking bjorns arm which for me personally was a bad retcon of good fluff.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> hell they need to beef valdor fluff back up since abnett ruined him taking bjorns arm which for me personally was a bad retcon of good fluff.


well some people are saying Valdor lasted long enough to impress Horus
some are saying he beat Horus...whether or not he could beat Horus consistently is another matter, perhaps it was a fluke like when Lokken beat Lucius

but so far, no quotes


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

loken beating lucius wasn't a fluke, im fairly certain he nutted him square in the face and taught him a lesson how lunar wolves win by any means neccesary...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> loken beating lucius wasn't a fluke, im fairly certain he nutted him square in the face and taught him a lesson how lunar wolves win by any means neccesary...


OK...that was the only time he managed to beat Lucius mainly because the latter was so arrogant
he could never again beat Lucius in sparring, it was a one-time thing, not something he could pull off consistently


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Who could say, Chaos Lucius has been beaten tons of times, otherwise why would his armour have so many souls leering out of it


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