# Warmaster Lorgar



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

On another thread there was an argument about who would have been the best warmaster. I personaly think Lorgar may have been the best choice. Hear me out.

If he was picked as the emps favorite he would have seen himself as some kind of angel. Betraying the emp. would have been the last thing on his mind. He would have fought it more than any other primarch, fanatics are like that.

Now some of you may want to make the argument that because he is a fanatic he would eventualy turn to Chaos. I point to the grey knights who may be bat shit crazy with thier fanaticism but they are not corruptable either.

But think about it, if Lorgar was the choice than there may not have been a Heresy to begin with. (All this is hindsight of course).


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Making someone the 2nd most powerful person in the Imperium JUST to ensure their loyalty seems a little dubious to me, personally I think Lorgar would have been one of the worst candidates for Warmaster if only because the majority of his brothers didn't like or particularly respect him.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Lorgar would have been the second worst candidate for warmaster because:
1. He would never get anything done, sure the planets he conquered were loyal but it took him ages to take one measly planet in the time it would take the Luna Wolves to take a dozen.
2. No one liked, respected or got on with Lorgar apart from his marines
3.Being Warmaster didnt mean being the big Es faverite, Horus was the Emps fave and that never changed even when he rebelled.
4. Although he was a fanatic he did not care who he was fanatic about so picture this:
Lorgar: Emperor for the win!
Erebus: Those chaos gods look like they like fanatics more
Lorgar: Chaos for the win!
However it took all of the Gods, Erebus and sorcery to turn Horus


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## ChaplainOrion (Jan 4, 2010)

To me the best pick would have either been Dorn or the Lion but really their still would have been a heresy because of Night Haunter hates the Emperor because he gave up his humanity for the Emperor like he wanted to and was punished for it.


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

I dont think it mattered who was made Warmaster as they all had character faults that wouldve led to division amongst the Primarchs. Horus was the best choice out of all of them because preHeresy he seemed the fairest, most level headed and strategically sound Primarch of them all. The next best would have had some amazing strengths but their weaknesses far outweighed those strengths and any one of the Primarchs wouldve been a Heresy-leader under certain circumstances, varying from Primarch to Primarch


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

i stand by what horus said make sanguines(cant spell it) the warmaster, most of the primarches just got parts from the emperor, he got it all


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lorgar would have made an appauling Warmaster in my opinion. As the Baron said making someone Warmaster (who has command of the entire Imperium's military I might add) just to ensure their loyalty would have been a mistake.

Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos because he was jealous at Horus being made Warmaster, he turned because he worshipped Chaos as an infant (on Colchis) and was rebuked by the Emperor for his praising of the Emperor as a god - which pushed him back into Chaos Worship. Even if he was Warmaster this still would have happened.

As Captain Stillios said he wouldn't have made an efficient Warmaster. He didn't have a large amount of respect or influence among his brother primarchs (in fact he had very little) meaning it was unlikely he would have been able to control them, Even Horus struggled in some cases in that regard. Also how would all the other Primarchs have reacted if Lorgar was made Warmaster? How would Horus have reacted...?

In my opinion Horus was the best and most logical choice for Warmaster, and the Emperor obviously agrees with me in that regard!


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Kale Hellas said:


> i stand by what horus said make sanguines the warmaster


Sanuinius would have been the Emperors second choice but he chose Horus because Horus had his ambition while that was the one thing Sanguinius didnt get, Sanguinius would have been a good Warmaster while in battle but he would crack under the pressure of the administrive dutys.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As the Imperial Guardsman player I am, I would go by the answer: the Emperor never makes a misstake. He chooses for a reason. You never know what long time plan he has and what he knew about Horus and his faultering. This might pass beyond the year M.41.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I will agree that Logar is a poor choice... in fact I can see only one candidate that could have done it and not suffered, the evidence after the heresy shows he basically took the role and that of the Emperor anyway... Thats right people I think best choice would have been papa smurf himself, GO Ultramarines!


Why?

1. Only man aside from the Emperor to actually see and IMPLEMENT a long term galactic wide Imperium and keep it together.

2. Set the foundation for the entire Astrates to continue forward with 10k worth of real peace... due to his codex no massive rebellion has happened since by the marines. We read of problems, even inter chapter warfare but you don't come across 50 or 100 worth of todays chapters saying bugger this we are off the chaos. That in itself is an achievement beyond any Chapter Master, Primarch or anyone has managed to do since. He stepped into the breach when their was a void and held it together in the aftermath of a galactic wide civil war. No other primarch can boast of such a result.

What did you do? Um... I looked broodingly and hid in my fortress castle dungeon and pretended to be an emo.... (Dark Angels) I said bugger you all I am doing it my way and then we got drunk one night and I went to move the car and I haven't been back since (Space Wolves) I kind of died but before I did I ensured that the Imperium would have us waiting somewhere maybe someday to go completely bonkers and rip everyone apart in a blood fest which was really not my fault... by the way do you have any mascara (Blood Angels)

3. I have not read any fluff anywhere to state there are other worlds as well run as Ultramar.... I will stand corrected if anyone can point me to it. However apart from the Ultramarines themselves, which other chapter boasts the ability to field Imperial Guard Regiments from the same home world that also serve the Imperium? If every world/sector was run along the same lines I have a feeling that the galactic economy would improve drastically and the fortunes of the Imperium may actually improve.

4. For me this is the killer punch... the Ultramarines stood firm and filled the gap, and why... yes they had suffered few losses. So lets look tactically... and strategically... could anyone else who was left put up a fight if the Ultramarines had said... um hey guys you be all nice and beaten up and all and guess what... we really are not.. so we are taking the best bits for ourselves... He/They did not. He formed a council of High Lords... and started to rebuild... we never hear what happens to much after the events of the flight of Chaos when the Palace is retaken.... what could have? It takes great vision and clarity to be able to say... well I can see the throne sitting there and I guess nobody is left but for me... but I won't do it... Thats the mark of a real leader... the ability to say 50% of the loyal forces left won't support me, I can probably force this, but hey lets work on rebuilding whats left and make it into something...

Vote for Papa Smurf... you know you want too.


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

yes but that same codex almost was the cause for a second greath war
and he maybe was the most power hungry primach of them all
and gues who was the first high lord yes the one and only papa smurf


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar would have made an appauling Warmaster in my opinion. As the Baron said making someone Warmaster (who has command of the entire Imperium's military I might add) just to ensure their loyalty would have been a mistake.
> 
> Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos because he was jealous at Horus being made Warmaster, he turned because he worshipped Chaos as an infant (on Colchis) and was rebuked by the Emperor for his praising of the Emperor as a god - which pushed him back into Chaos Worship. Even if he was Warmaster this still would have happened.
> 
> ...


Let me rephrase this a bit.

If Logar had been made warmaster there would have either been no HH, or it would have been VASTLY smaller. Confirmation of his beliefs - that the emp. was a God, would have made him uncorruptable. Primarchs like Fulgrim would have been rooted out before any real damage was done (comparitavily). His own corruption from turning to Chaos would never have happened, hence the domino effect of the others turning would not have happened (for the most part)

This is Monday morning quarterbacking, but I don't see the HH being so huge if Lorgar was in charge. If he had been chosen, he would have been uncorruptable. W/O the warmaster in their corner Chaos would not have done nearly as much damage.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lorgar seemed to have blind fate, I guess thats why I never really like Lorgar. However his legion organization does deserve benefit. Im not sure who would have been the best warmaster, I guess its also fair to say, that if lorgar had never joined chaos and found that daemon knife to stab the horus with, that horus would definitley have been without a doubt the best warmaster. the emperor was right. 

I think without a doubt every single legion of the emperors was a subject to chaos. Sure some more than others. Whenever i get into a debate about why each legion had its own legitimate reason for joining chaos im always given the same response like this legion was too stuborn or selfish or bloodthirsty. The funny thing is that pretty much every single legion had those traits. Almost to a full extent. Can any one really tell me one legion that isn't too prideful or selfish about their victories and such. If anything im surprised some of the loyal legions where not chosen to fight against the emperor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Alexious said:


> I will agree that Logar is a poor choice... in fact I can see only one candidate that could have done it and not suffered, the evidence after the heresy shows he basically took the role and that of the Emperor anyway... Thats right people I think best choice would have been papa smurf himself, GO Ultramarines!
> 
> 
> Why?
> ...


Yes that is all a real credit to Guilliman's administrative and organisational skills, but more was required of the Warmaster. It was Horus' ambition, only matched by the Emperor's that made him the best choice for Warmaster. I think this is explained fairly well in the Heresy novels:



False Gods Page 201 said:


> ...for the first three decades of the Great Crusade I fought alongside the Emperor, and I alone felt the full weight of his ambition to rule the galaxy. He passed that vision to me and I carried it with me in my heart as we forged our path across the stars.





False Gods Page 202 said:


> 'and what part of the Emperor do you carry, sir?'... 'Me? I carry his ambition to rule.'


Also:



Horus Rising Page 129 said:


> They did not doubt his (Horus') fitness for the role, for none of the Primarchs had ever matched Horus' achievements, nor the intimacy of his bond with the Emperor


One of the reasons Dorn wasn't chosen was because:


Horus Rising Page 130 said:


> "he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic..."


Rogal Dorn:


Horus Rising Page 135 said:


> "There could be no better Warmaster than Horus..."


Even Guilliman accepted Horus' appointment as the right choice (Page 129 Horus Rising)



Zooey72 said:


> Let me rephrase this a bit.
> 
> If Logar had been made warmaster there would have either been no HH, or it would have been VASTLY smaller. Confirmation of his beliefs - that the emp. was a God, would have made him uncorruptable. Primarchs like Fulgrim would have been rooted out before any real damage was done (comparitavily). His own corruption from turning to Chaos would never have happened, hence the domino effect of the others turning would not have happened (for the most part)
> 
> This is Monday morning quarterbacking, but I don't see the HH being so huge if Lorgar was in charge. If he had been chosen, he would have been uncorruptable. W/O the warmaster in their corner Chaos would not have done nearly as much damage.


The Heresy aside for a moment, Lorgar would have been a totally impractical choice for Warmaster. He didn't have the influence among the Imperium or the other Primarchs to pull off such a role, he would have thus totally relied on the support of one that did have such influence, namely Horus. Because he was untrusted and treated with suspicion by many of his brothers they wouldn't have followed him like they did Horus. Imagine how The Lion, Angron & Perturabo (to use a few examples) would have reacted if Lorgar was chosen as Warmaster, you may have had a rebellion on your hands simply because of the choice of Warmaster.

It was obvious Lorgar wasn't the obvious choice for Warmaster, he had been reprimanded by the Emperor for his ways and beliefs - Lorgar didn't share the same views, beliefs and ambitions as the Emperor did for the Imperium and Mankind, thus it wouldn't have been sensible, infact it would have been irrational and against all logic if Lorgar was to be the representative and proxy of the Emperor, if anything because they didn't share the same views.

Now considering the Heresy, even if Lorgar was Warmaster - that wouldn't have diminished Horus' influence, reputation, power or even his Ambition. Horus still could have been corrupted and using his considerable influence could still have instigated a rebellion on a similar scale as the Horus Heresy.



Zooey72 said:


> But think about it, if Lorgar was the choice than there may not have been a Heresy to begin with.


Now here is the main flaw in your theory: Lorgar was corrupted around 100 years before the Ullanor Campaign and the creation of the post of Warmaster. 

Thread over?!


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Making somebody or charging somebody with authority due to their blind faith is not by a long shot, the mark of a leader or even administrator.

Your right, the HH would have been short lived and smaller if he was in charge... but the ramifications of why and how and then what would have happened after interest me too.

1. Anything is able to be corrupted in the 40k universe. I think there are enough examples of Chapter Masters, Primarchs and even members of the Ordo Malleus who have become corrupted or used the power of Chaos at one time or another in the history of the Imperium. Faith does not make you immune, it makes you a target.

2. If he had been appointed and the HH was smaller... why? Is that because he would have had a fantatical civil war within the first 200 years due to religious differences vs the word of the Emperor himself or beacuse eventually even minor deviation from a proscribed faith would have led to crusades... Space Marines even today do not venerate the Emperor as a god, if you read particularly the early fluff from the RT era, the Emperor is viewed as a man, a great man, the best man... a brother marine... thats the integral difference with some chapters vs the Inq and also vs the entire Adminstratum. Why do the space marines have their own chaplains? Simply put they have their own version of what the Emperor and primarch are like... not the image that is presented by the priesthood today to the masses, IG or what the various Ordo's would have you think. 

3. Chaos would have defeated the Imperium quickly if Logar had been appointed and remained in power after a HH style event. The great thing about 40k Imperial religion is you can see how corrupting it is within itself.

a). Would you have machine gods? Or tech that is bound in myth and religion itself? Not so much.... imagine Logar at the helm, you would eventually have to bless every bolter shell three times before you could fire it... although an extreme example my point is that the current religion of the Imperium although faith is a powerful propaganda tool for keeping things together, has led to centuries of myth building up over rites, etc to the point that even the Adeptus Mech cannot produce what it once did... why? well unfortunately religion in the Imperium does not tolerate change, deviance or idea particularly well. Science and Tech do not flourish in religious extreme states, as to do so they have to question accepted practices and look at innovation. 

Anyway... love the debate.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe that Lorgar's Dark Apostle, Marduk of the XVII Legion is the best Warmaster (even though he isn't a warmaster) that ever lived.

You should really read Dark Apostle and dark Disciple, they're great books.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

DestroyerHive said:


> I believe that Lorgar's Dark Apostle, Marduk of the XVII Legion is the best Warmaster (even though he isn't a warmaster) that ever lived.
> 
> You should really read Dark Apostle and dark Disciple, they're great books.


Umm... Yea Marduk is a great character and all. But were talking about the post and title of 'Warmaster' created by the Emperor following the Ullanor Campaign just prior to him returning to Terra. Not literally a master of war!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I thought Horus was the perfect candidate for warmaster. COTE basically hit it when describing his traits as a primarch. I think the major difference between Horus converting than other primarchs (correct me if im wrong) was that he had grief due to the partial truth that was to become of him and the fallen primarchs. He was lied too and in turn felt that he would be betrayed. I think that any primarch could have fallen the same way he did.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm sticking with Sanguinius. Horus had the Big E's drive to conquer and rule but thats just the problem, the Crusade was just about over. The Empire needed consolidation not expansion. Sanguinius could have given the Imperium that by being a figurehead and actually being able to appeal to the more dissatisfied of his brothers. Not to mention his legion despite being one of the most feared had no desire to endlessly conquer and prove their superiority. They were huggy lovey Blood Angels in them days!

Not to mention he seems far more emotionally balanced than Horus and capable of far greater compassion. He wouldn't have had the huge crisis of faith Horus had due to the Emperor leaving the front lines. In fact I can see him giving a raised eyebrow and a sarcastic "So what?" to any complaints due to the E's absence. 

Hell when even Horus (from now on known as Crybaby) is muttering that Angel Boy should have his job then I'm inclined to agree with him.


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## Ordo (Dec 31, 2008)

In my opinion Horus does seem the correct choice.I mean its been stated above he had far more achienments on and off the battlefield.In the books he was chrismatic to the itterators(sp) he had the populaces heart just as he did his brother marines.Democracy is also a way of war within itself.But no Lorgar would have been a poor choice because of his fanatic like nature.
Ordo


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I am inclined to agree with the previous posters in that he would have been a poor warmaster, however with a bit of indulgence and support whe would have been a hugely effective primarch. The utter dominaion he subjected his conqured worlds to they would have been a very solid core to the emps expansion. On the other hand maybe the chaos would have swayed him anyway. Who knows?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I would have loved to see Alpharius and Omegen be the Warmaster so they could split and one govern one half of the galaxy and the other twin govern the other half


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Alpharius.

Not only is he a brilliant tactician, he was distant from the Emperor, to the point where most of his dealings were with Horus. And yet, he remained loyal to the Emperor, and in my opinion is the most loyal of the Emperor's Primarchs.

Why?

Because he decided to side with Chaos, the sworn enemies of humanity and yet remained his loyal to the Emperor, his bonding with the Chaos powers simply a ruse to insure the survival of humanity.

They are the only Chapter to not reside within the Eye of Terror and have the least mutations, dare I say the few who do volunteered to obtain these mutations in order to look convincing.

Alpharius was open minded, he looked past the strict and rigid laws of the Imperium and was a man of reason and logic, dealing with even aliens as he was aware of the vast knowledge they possessed. Aware of the flaws of humanity, he was not too proud to deal with them.

If any other Primarch were to have seen the vision of the Cabal, they would have most likely refused to believe it.

Alpharius was distant from the Emperor and the rest of the Primarchs, and as a result was neutral and unaffected by the rivalries of the Primarchs and their legions. He taught his legion to think for themselves and to be able to operate even without him. 

Just imagine a Warmaster whose every Chapter member/follower who think for themselves, and are independent of others, it would be such an efficient, well oiled machine that most likely through their secretive ways would accomplish a lot more than any other Warmaster with a lot less wars and battles.

Can you think of any Primarch who could keep himself sane while dealing with the Chaos powers and maintain his loyalty?

Horus, the favorite of the Emperor and the most diplomatic and well liked amongst the Primarchs themselves (none of the Primarchs disliked Horus) fell to Chaos due to the burden of responsibility placed on Horus by the Emperor (so that he could work on a much more important goal, the Webway) which cracked at his mental state and caused him to doubt and scrutinize the Emperor.

The way in which Alpharius deals with military issues is radically different than all the Primarchs and the Emperor himself, and thus I sincerely believe that even if placed with the burden Horus recieved, he wouldn't have buckled, especially with the aid of his Chapter being full of independent thinkers and extremely efficient soldiers.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Alpharius.
> Not only is he a brilliant tactician, he was distant from the Emperor, to the point where most of his dealings were with Horus. And yet, he remained loyal to the Emperor, and in my opinion is the most loyal of the Emperor's Primarchs.


Indeed 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Because he decided to side with Chaos, the sworn enemies of humanity and yet remained his loyal to the Emperor, his bonding with the Chaos powers simply a ruse to insure the survival of humanity.


After the failure of the Heresy, its unknown if Alpharius actually did fall to Chaos.

Also its not actually clear that he did join the Heresy due to the request of the Cabal. Its only implied at in _Legion_, and may not actually be the case.



Malus Darkblade said:


> They are the only Chapter to not reside within the Eye of Terror and have the least mutations, dare I say the few who do volunteered to obtain these mutations in order to look convincing.


I think its a given that at least _some_ of the Alpha Legion have fallen to Chaos since the Heresy, whether some cells remain 'loyal' or not though is unknown.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Alpharius was distant from the Emperor and the rest of the Primarchs, and as a result was neutral and unaffected by the rivalries of the Primarchs and their legions.


Indeed. In fact evidence to back this up is that although he disagreed with Guilliman's rigid approach to war, he didn't pursue his philosophy in argument with Guilliman - instead he stated that he simply ignored Guilliman. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> He taught his legion to think for themselves and to be able to operate even without him.
> 
> Just imagine a Warmaster whose every Chapter member/follower who think for themselves, and are independent of others, it would be such an efficient, well oiled machine that most likely through their secretive ways would accomplish a lot more than any other Warmaster with a lot less wars and battles.


Im not sure. Alpharius' philosophy worked perfectly well confined to just his own legion, and although would have been preferable across all the legions - Alpharius as Warmaster wouldn't have been a very wise decision.

He was a relative newcomer to the crusade and the Imperium, he did not command the right level of respect from the other Primarchs or infact the Imperium as a whole. He didn't have the influence required to pull off the role of Warmaster, or in my opinion the self-confidence.

An example of this is when Grammaticus warned him of the Black Cube on Nurth - and when he finally agreed to withdraw his forces, he didn't even have the self-confidence to order Namatjira to withdraw his forces, until shouted at by John. Alpharius didn't have the self-confidence in my opinion, yes he was a fantastic Primarch (probably my favourite), his philosophy in my opinion was the most logical and his methods were excellent and efficient. But he lacked the characteristics and traits required of the Warmaster.

Also on a side note, considering the Lion, Angron and Perturabo (as 3 examples) raged against the Emperor's decision to make Horus Warmaster (who was the obvious choice), imagine how they would have reacted if Alpharius was made Warmaster?

The Warmaster was a front, a representative of the Imperium, and the face of the crusade. Alpharius himself stated he despised such things, hence why he wasn't present at Ullanor and used other Astartes to fill in for him on most occasions. I would think that Alpharius preferred to remain in the shadows, acting and manipulating others for his own gain, not being out in the open acting as the representative of the Emperor, where he would be vulnerable.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Can you think of any Primarch who could keep himself sane while dealing with the Chaos powers and maintain his loyalty?


Well that is an assumption im afraid. We don't know if Alpharius (if alive) still remains loyal to the Emperor, if indeed he was following Nurth.



Malus Darkblade said:


> (none of the Primarchs disliked Horus)


Corax did.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The way in which Alpharius deals with military issues is radically different than all the Primarchs and the Emperor himself, and thus I sincerely believe that even if placed with the burden Horus recieved, he wouldn't have buckled, especially with the aid of his Chapter being full of independent thinkers and extremely efficient soldiers.


Possibly in that regard yeah.

But Alpharius didn't possess the other characteristics required of Warmaster. Ambition is the main one that springs to mind.

Another is that Alpharius didn't actually agree with the Great Crusade, he thought chasing Utopian ideals was ultimately flawed and impossible. Although he was loyal to the Emperor's dream regardless.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

WHEW I thought I accidentally erased my post. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also its not actually clear that he did join the Heresy due to the request of the Cabal. Its only implied at in _Legion_, and may not actually be the case.


I think most of the evidence points to him joining with Chaos to secretly aid humanity. But yes it is not confirmed.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think its a given that at least _some_ of the Alpha Legion have fallen to Chaos since the Heresy, whether some cells remain 'loyal' or not though is unknown.


I think the AL are too indoctrinated in the teachings of Alpharius and that their voice of reasoning is very solid. They never worshiped the emperor like most of the chapters did, they just looked upon him as a respectful leader.

Their a very scientific, and philosophical bunch, obviously a completely different picture from the majority of Space Marines. They've studied Chaos and dealt with aliens amongst other things. Before they are trained killers, they are intelligence gatherers, they deem intelligence as being a greater weapon than their bolters. Thus I would assume they would be too well versed in the history of chaos and its effects to succumb to its lures and false promises involuntarily.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not sure. Alpharius' philosophy worked perfectly well confined to just his own legion, and although would have been preferable across all the legions - Alpharius as Warmaster wouldn't have been a very wise decision.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He was a relative newcomer to the crusade and the Imperium, he did not command the right level of respect from the other Primarchs or infact the Imperium as a whole. He didn't have the influence required to pull off the role of Warmaster, or in my opinion the self-confidence.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Alpharius didn't have the self-confidence in my opinion, yes he was a fantastic Primarch (probably my favourite), his philosophy in my opinion was the most logical and his methods were excellent and efficient. But he lacked the characteristics and traits required of the Warmaster.


But since he was a newcomer to the crusade, being the last Primarch to being discovered doesn't mean he's lacking in the military skills or charisma in my opinion. He stumbled upon Horus, not the other way around and kept his men at bay with primitive fighter planes from what I've gathered. So we don't know what his status is back at his homeworld, he could have been an awesome leader leading a highly advanced society.

Also he was a tactical genius, he could have swayed all the primarchs to his side if he was forced to, I think he's the type of person to being able to accomplish almost anything if he sets his mind to it or in his case deems it as a necessary mission to complete. 

And since he was the last to be found, he wasn't given a chance like the others to familiarize himself with the other Primarchs or the infrastructure of the Imperium. I think if he was given even a little bit more time or the initiative, he would have unraveled every secret and all the workings of the imperium.

I don't think he was lacking in self confidence whatsoever, I don't think that can be said of any Primarch, but he was less boastful and more of an introvert definitely, something I'd consider to being a strength and a trait of a good Warmaster in my opinion.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Warmaster was a front, a representative of the Imperium, and the face of the crusade. Alpharius himself stated he despised such things, hence why he wasn't present at Ullanor and used other Astartes to fill in for him on most occasions. I would think that Alpharius preferred to remain in the shadows, acting and manipulating others for his own gain, not being out in the open acting as the representative of the Emperor, where he would be vulnerable.


He never attended ceremonies and what not due to his secretive nature and his workaholic mentality, in that he's always cooking something up in secret but again, I think that would give him an edge in the Warmaster department, someone aware of all the hidden agendas and someone pulling the strings of those plotting.

I don't think Alpharius is the type to ever be caught in a vulnerable state, what with his countless decoys, his every chapter member a leader unto himself. Not even Guilliman, a brother Primarch, knew he killed a decoy (assuming that theory to be true) during his supposed duel with Alpharius. 

If Alpharius kept his homeworld amongst other things a secret from Horus and the emperor for countless centuries, something so big even from his allies then I think he would do more than fine in such a political position.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> An example of this is when Grammaticus warned him of the Black Cube on Nurth - and when he finally agreed to withdraw his forces, he didn't even have the self-confidence to order Namatjira to withdraw his forces, until shouted at by John.


Ordering Namatjira to withdraw... hmmm it's been a while since I've read the novel, I'll check it out and get back to you on this point.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also on a side note, considering the Lion, Angron and Perturabo (as 3 examples) raged against the Emperor's decision to make Horus Warmaster (who was the obvious choice), imagine how they would have reacted if Alpharius was made Warmaster?


As I mentioned earlier, if Alpharius were discovered earlier or given the initiative to befriend his brother primarchs, he could easily do so in my opinion, becoming their closest friends out of sincerity or to leech information off of them lol.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Corax did.


Ahh I wasn't aware, not that familiar with all the chapter histories yet. I need more novels ;/



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But Alpharius didn't possess the other characteristics required of Warmaster. Ambition is the main one that springs to mind.


I think Alpharius had ambition. I think he displayed that when he took over a rebellious world the hard way just so he could have fun. His ambition was to prove to everyone that despite being in command of a legion for a short time, he could make them outdo everyone else. He proved this to his biggest critic Gulliman when his legion beat the Ultramarines when they supposedly killed him.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Another is that Alpharius didn't actually agree with the Great Crusade, he thought chasing Utopian ideals was ultimately flawed and impossible. Although he was loyal to the Emperor's dream regardless.


He was pragmatic yes but that pragmatism paved the way to him seeing outside the box, to dealing with aliens and other things that would allow him in my opinion to discover alternative methods to running the imperium and possibly leading humanity in a different, brighter direction like the Interrex. I think he was more farsighted than the emperor himself who condemned aliens simply because they were in the way of his project to make humanity the top dog of the galaxy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I think most of the evidence points to him joining with Chaos to secretly aid humanity. But yes it is not confirmed.


Well all we know is that he crippled Namatjira's Fleet, and subsequently joined Team Horus, was involved in Isstvan V, and then ambushed the Space Wolves following the Burning of Prospero and prevented them from joining up with the White Scars' fleet.

We don't know the true motive behind him joining the Heresy, only that he did. The fact that he was *seemingly* willing to bring about the extinction of his entire galaxy-spanning race (despite being doctrinated to be highly xenophobic) has always sat arkwardly in my mind.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I think the AL are too indoctrinated in the teachings of Alpharius and that their voice of reasoning is very solid. They never worshiped the emperor like most of the chapters did, they just looked upon him as a respectful leader.


The Legions never worshipped the Emperor, and even the Post-Heresy Chapters (for the most part) don't worship the Emperor as a god.

Chaos can corrupt and infect anything. Because the Alpha's were highly developed thinkers and strong individuals doesn't make it any less likely that they have joined Chaos.

There has even been examples of ex-Alpha Legion Daemon Princes, and possessed Astartes. I would say its a clear fact that at least _some_ of the Alpha Legion have fallen to Chaos (although not necessarily all).



Malus Darkblade said:


> They've studied Chaos


Studied it, but knew next to nothing about it.



Malus Darkblade said:


> and dealt with aliens


I would say most if not all Legions at some point during the Great Crusade had diplomatic relations with Xenos, even if it was just something along the lines of a Parlay.

2 Examples being Fulgrim's meeting with Eldrad, and Horus' tolerance and meeting of the Kinebranch.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Thus I would assume they would be too well versed in the history of chaos and its effects to succumb to its lures and false promises involuntarily.


As I said, they knew nothing at all really about Chaos. No one is too intelligent or rational to avoid Chaos corruption.



Malus Darkblade said:


> But since he was a newcomer to the crusade, being the last Primarch to being discovered doesn't mean he's lacking in the military skills or charisma in my opinion


No, he wasn't lacking it that department 



Malus Darkblade said:


> He stumbled upon Horus, not the other way around and kept his men at bay with primitive fighter planes from what I've gathered. So we don't know what his status is back at his homeworld, he could have been an awesome leader leading a highly advanced society.


If that was the case then, he would have been in the same situation as all of the other Primarchs, perhaps bar Night Haunter.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also he was a tactical genius, he could have swayed all the primarchs to his side if he was forced to, I think he's the type of person to being able to accomplish almost anything if he sets his mind to it or in his case deems it as a necessary mission to complete.


Im not sure. Alpharius seems to have been the 'younger brother' among the Primarchs - the inexperianced one, who was always trying to prove himself (which was certainly the case Pre-'_Legion_') - an indicator of this (besides the IA article) is on page 496 of _Fulgrim_:

"Alpharius, resplendent in purple and green held himself erect, as though attempting to match the beings around him in stature."

Unless of course, given Alpharius dislike of such events, this was actually an Alpha Astartes filling in for him...

Anyway, Alpharius seems to me kind of like a recluse, not seeing eye-to-eye with any of his brothers, besides Horus. Many Primarchs (notably Guilliman) disagreed with his military philosophy and he didn't command anyway near the respect or influence that Horus did for example. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> And since he was the last to be found, he wasn't given a chance like the others to familiarize himself with the other Primarchs or the infrastructure of the Imperium. I think if he was given even a little bit more time or the initiative, he would have unraveled every secret and all the workings of the imperium.


Quite possibly. But that doesn't change the situation 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Ordering Namatjira to withdraw... hmmm it's been a while since I've read the novel, I'll check it out and get back to you on this point.


Page 268:

'You must quit this world immediately and retreat to a point of safety... Furthermore, if you are persuaive enough, there is still a chance to save the expedition forces.'

'Namatjira won't just-' Alpharius began.

'You're a Primarch!' snapped Grammaticus. '...use your influence, and even a Lord Commander will listen!...'

Thats just one of several subtle examples which seem to portray Alpharius as not quite as authoritative as you would expect of a Primarch. Maybe (although not necessarily) portraying a lack of self-confidence, which he may or may not have gained from his standing among the Primarchs. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> I think Alpharius had ambition. I think he displayed that when he took over a rebellious world the hard way just so he could have fun. His ambition was to prove to everyone that despite being in command of a legion for a short time, he could make them outdo everyone else. He proved this to his biggest critic Gulliman when his legion beat the Ultramarines when they supposedly killed him.


Indeed. Just not the right degree of ambition. He was content to lead his legion, develop his philosophy and serve his Emperor. Where as Horus was a man of fiery Ambition:

“… for the first 3 decades of the Great Crusade I fought alongside the Emperor, and I alone felt the full weight of his ambition to rule the galaxy. He passed that vision to me and I carried it with me in my heart as we forged our path across the stars.” (False Gods Page 201)

“& what part of the Emperor do you carry, sir?” “Me? I carry his ambition to rule..." (False Gods Page 202)

“Can you imagine the weight of responsibility? We’ve come this far with the Emperor at our head, but I cant even begin to conceive of the ambition that it must have taken to lead a crusade in conquest of the galaxy” (Fulgrim Page 158) 

Are just some examples from the HH series, Horus alone inherited the Emperor's ambition to conquer and rule the galaxy. He alone had the drive to lead the Great Crusade, and conquer the galaxy.



Malus Darkblade said:


> He was pragmatic yes but that pragmatism paved the way to him seeing outside the box, to dealing with aliens and other things that would allow him in my opinion to discover alternative methods to running the imperium and possibly leading humanity in a different, brighter direction like the Interrex. I think he was more farsighted than the emperor himself who condemned aliens simply because they were in the way of his project to make humanity the top dog of the galaxy.


But then he would have been at odds with the Emperor himself in that regard, and you couldn't have had a Warmaster who disagreed with the Emperor.

Also on a side note there is a very good reason for the Emperor being so seemingly xenophobic:

Not only did many Xenos races betray Humanity during the Age of Strife, but it was also necessary for the Emperor's offensive against Chaos. Humanity could be directly ruled by the Emperor and the Imperial Truth could be forced upon them. This couldn't have happened with any Xenos, so not only was he starving Chaos of worship, power and influence by ridding the galaxy of as many Xenos as possible, he was also 'playing it safe' considering many Xenos races had preyed upon mankind during the Age of Strife, despite the non-aggression pacts.

(Good debate by the way :grin: - you'll certainly be getting some rep when im allowed to give you more!)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> (Good debate by the way :grin: - you'll certainly be getting some rep when im allowed to give you more!)


Thank you, your quite an interesting fellow to debate with, you have some solid arguments.  Repping.


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## Ordo (Dec 31, 2008)

But how would Alpharius even be considered by the Emp?I mean he was the last one to be found as stated and had from what I gather in the HH series very little in the way of any tactile combat abilities.But this is just what I have gathered I am at descent of angels so not far enough into it yet.
Ordo


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ordo said:


> But how would Alpharius even be considered by the Emp?I mean he was the last one to be found as stated and had from what I gather in the HH series very little in the way of any tactile combat abilities.But this is just what I have gathered I am at descent of angels so not far enough into it yet.
> Ordo


I would wait until you've read _Legion_, to draw any conclusions. 

But yes I agree with you in the sense that Alpharius likely wasn't even regarded as a viable option for Warmaster.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Mabye we should change the thread to Warmaster Alpharius 

I think that in regards to the Alpha Legions corruption some 'cells' are corrupt. However this could be by design of the 'loyalists' in the legion to maintain the Chaos front.

One could point to the DoW Soulstorm Chaos Lord but I just think that they couldn't be botherd to check up on fluff


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> However this could be by design of the 'loyalists' in the legion to maintain the Chaos front.


The Imperium doesn't need reminding that the Alpha Legion are traitors! 

If the Alpha Legion didn't sport any mutations, the Imperials wouldn't suddenly think "hmm.. they only have two arms, maybe their not aligned to Chaos after all!"


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I spoke to Dan on his blog and asked if he was going to continue working on the AL. He said yes (click) but I'm going to bug him till he bumps it up to the top of his list : )


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I spoke to Dan on his blog and asked if he was going to continue working on the AL. He said yes but I'm going to bug him till he bumps it up to the top of his list : )


:grin: - Yeah I spoke to Graham McNeil a while back and he thought another Alpha Legion novel was likely. Seeing as Dan is also interested in continuing with the Alpha Legion, it sounds like its going to happen!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Hopefully I'll influence him Chaos style to incorporate some of my ideas lol.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Imperium doesn't need reminding that the Alpha Legion are traitors!
> 
> If the Alpha Legion didn't sport any mutations, the Imperials wouldn't suddenly think "hmm.. they only have two arms, maybe their not aligned to Chaos after all!"


hmmm....perhaps I didn't think about that one :biggrin:


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

I would have said Roboute, in my opinion. He effectively turned into the Warmaster after the Emperor's "death", and did a damn good job.

However, if I had to choose somebody else it would have to be either Sanguinius or Dorn.

Some people have been claiming Lorgar to be a bad choice because of the fact that nobody liked him. However, I don't think this is true. In fact, he was valued by many Primarchs, including Horus himself, for his wisdom and thinking (even if he was a fanatic).
Also, you said that he would be a good choice because he was almost assured of never turning against the Emperor. However as many people have said, even if he did remain as incredibly loyal as he was, he still would have been a terrible Warmaster, due to the huge amount of time it took him to make one world compliant (what with the cathedral making). And anyway, there were other Primarchs who were just as loyal and could do a much better (and quicker) job- Dorn for example. As much as I love the Word Bearers, I have to go against Lorgar on this one.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Thousandth Son said:


> I would have said Roboute, in my opinion. He effectively turned into the Warmaster after the Emperor's "death", and did a damn good job.
> 
> However, if I had to choose somebody else it would have to be either Sanguinius or Dorn.
> 
> ...



But the Primarchs picked up traits from the homeworld they grew up on, in Lorgar's case excessive worship of a deity.


*Let's suppose Lorgar was an efficient Primarch in that he did not erect temples on worlds he conquered*


However even amongst Lorgar's fanatically loyal legion, one of his most senior members, Erebus, turned to chaos at one point in time (the person who raised Lorgar, an *outsider*) and converted Lorgar when he was feeling vulnerable when the Emperor rebuking him for continuing his worship of him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Some people seem to be ignoring the fact that Lorgar was corrupted prior to the Ullanor Crusade, when the post of Warmaster was created. (which was itself 2 years prior to the Heresy according to _Legion_)

And of course also that Lorgar (and the Covenant/Colchis) worshipped Chaos prior to Lorgar being reunited with the Imperium.

EDIT:

Also Massey (I love this guys perception of the 40k Background) on Warseer gave a good summary regarding the role of Warmaster:

"It was Horus, after all, who was able to bind them all together. His greatest gift was an understanding of psychology. He knew what to say to motivate each of them. That's the advantage he held over other possible choices for Warmaster. Sanguinius is too pure. He doesn't understand why people go to strip clubs. Leman Russ is too rash. You can't have your Warmaster getting in fistfights with other generals because someone drank the last beer. Guilleman is too spoiled. He's the blonde frat kid with the Ferrari in 80s movies. He's actually really good at what he does, but nobody likes the guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The Lion is too disconnected. He's the guy who forgets Valentine's Day. And his Anniversary. And then wonders why his wife is mad. You just can't have guys like that running the show when part of the job description requires talking to Night Haunter and Mortarion. Guilleman: "Can you please, not be creepy? And you, let's try being less ugly. Okay?"


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm suprised that the Emperor didn't think that Lorgar worshipping Chaos prior to him joining the Emperor wasn't a big problem. Surley he must have known that he was worshipping Chaos and thought "shit, what if he goes back, mabye the Dark Gods have a foothold in him already."

Any thoughts on this, did the big E even find out that Lorgar was a Chaos worshipper?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> I'm suprised that the Emperor didn't think that Lorgar worshipping Chaos prior to him joining the Emperor wasn't a big problem. Surley he must have known that he was worshipping Chaos and thought "shit, what if he goes back, mabye the Dark Gods have a foothold in him already."
> 
> Any thoughts on this, did the big E even find out that Lorgar was a Chaos worshipper?


We don't know. But its plausable that he didn't, otherwise he would have likely done something about it.

Worshipping Chaos doesn't always involves directly worshipping Khorne, Nurlge, Slaanesh or Tzeentch (or indeed just undivided) though - Colchis could have been worshipping a 'denomination' of Chaos worship or a seperate facet. They could even have been indirectly (or even unconsciously) worshipping Chaos. We simply don't know.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

Even if they weren't knowingly worshipping Chaos, surely the Emperor in his wisdom would know the signs to look out for or even sense the touch of Chaos upon the people of Colchis/ Lorgar. If Lorgar was indeed worshipping Chaos even before he met his father, then in my opinion it's very surprising that the Emperor didn't even realise it. A serious lapse in observation.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He didn't notice Horus turning either so I don't think it was because he wasn't observant.

He was occupied with many things, hence why he gave the title of Warmaster to Horus so he could work on other things like the Webway.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He didn't notice Horus turning either so I don't think it was because he wasn't observant.
> 
> He was occupied with many things, hence why he gave the title of Warmaster to Horus so he could work on other things like the Webway.


We mean Lorgar worshipping Chaos prior to the Emperor finding him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> We mean Lorgar worshipping Chaos prior to the Emperor finding him.





Malus Darkblade said:


> He didn't notice Horus turning either (the closest Primarch to the emperor) so I don't think it was because he wasn't observant.
> 
> *He was occupied with many things*, hence why he gave the title of Warmaster to Horus so he could work on other things like the Webway.


Why did the emperor flat out refuse to believe magnus's warning of horus's treachery? The emperor's psychic ability surely would have been able to sift the truth from the lies.

I think it all comes down to the fact that you don't assume things of someone who holds you very dearly to yourself and you don't believe someone you've grown to mistrust (magnus using sorcery over and over).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Why did the emperor flat out refuse to believe magnus's warning of horus's treachery? The emperor's psychic ability surely would have been able to sift the truth from the lies.


The thing with psychic abilities is that a single individual is not a master of all 'denominations'. There are many different manifest abilites psykers can maintain, but each psyker is not skilled in all of them, and each psyker is not able to even practise all of them.

The Emperor, we know is the most powerful human Psyker ever, perhaps even the most powerful Psyker ever, but he may not have been skilled or even able to practise certain psychic traits. For example we know its likely that to some degree he was skilled in Farseeing, generally because we know he planned everything years, decades, even millenia previously. We also know that he was skilled to some degree in 'offensive psychics', as seen in his duel with Horus, but beyond that we simply don't know much about his power. We dont know whether or not he was a pyrokine or logokinetic (or the bearer of any other manifest psychic abilities) for example. 

Regarding Magnus' warning. It was sorcerous in nature, and from the account in the collected visions the Emperor witnessed everything that Magnus' 'dream' contained, thus knew everything that Magnus did. Quite simply it may not have been possible to check whether Magnus was lying or not, that was irrelavent, and even if the Emperor could have known if Magnus was telling the truth or not - this kind of 'test' may have been tainted in the sense that Magnus may have truley believed that Horus had fallen, but this didn't necessarily mean it was the truth, The Emperor in my opinion likely thought that Magnus had been tricked into sending the sorcerous warning in an attempt to flood Terra in Daemons/assassinate the Emperor (I think that makes sense! ) As for the reason why the Emperor didn't seem to take the message seriously is generally due to the reasons you gave, but a bit more extreme. 

Magnus had been warned twice already not to practise Sorcery - once upon being discovered, and once at Nikaea (infact the second warning was more of a threat, the Emperor declared that if Magnus continued to practise sorcery he would 'visit destruction upon' Magnus and would 'strike his legion's name from Imperial records for all time'), yet he continued. The Emperor knew the inherent dangers of sorcery and knew that Magnus was likely corrupted (CV even goes as far as to say that Magnus was likely already corrupted upon being discovered by the Emperor, and certainly by the time of the council of Nikaea), and thus his warning was null & void. Aside from that the warning itself caused catastrophic damage to the Imperial Palace, ruined the carefully laid out plans for the Imperial Webway, and almost flooded Terra itself in hordes of Daemons. Magnus had threatened to ruin absolutley everything the Emperor had worked thousands of years for to achieve, and even paralysed the Emperor for around a decade up until the moment when the Emperor teleported aboard the _Vengeful Spirit_. As well as all that the Emperor had no reason to doubt Horus' loyalty, he had always been the first primarch and the brightest star; the Emperor's favourite and most trusted.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He didn't notice Horus turning either so I don't think it was because he wasn't observant.
> 
> He was occupied with many things, hence why he gave the title of Warmaster to Horus so he could work on other things like the Webway.


Yes but Horus turned after he was given the title of Warmaster. If what we are saying is correct then Lorgar turned before even meeting the Emperor. So upon the Emperor meeting his son, he surely must have realised the taint upon him? This is different to Horus's case, as the Emperor didn't even see Horus again until the Battle of Terra.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Out of all the other primarchs, magnus would have probably been the best warmaster from a military point of view, forgeting whomed the emperor loved the most. he had a fantastic approach to both conquest and diplomacy, he was aguably the most loyal of al the primarchs. Of course it would have made a few ripples in galaxtic politics, with the mass anti psyker feeling that was prevelant.


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