# Why all the Thousand Sons hate??



## floraljetbike (Jul 15, 2013)

Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Speaking as a person who stands by his Thousand Sons army, the general consensus is a combination of numerous things:

1. Everyone rolls 1s eventually. Rubric marines are as prone to falling to small arms fire as Terminators are; eventually you're gonna roll a 1 or 2 and fail that armor save. 50/50 is great odds to soak a lascannon or maybe even plasma, but it's still no dfense to small arms fire, and their price point means they will ALWAYS be out numbered by equal amount of troops worth of small arms fire.

2. Slow & Purposeful. While this is great for that 30" bolter range all the time, the drawbacks mean that they need to always be on the offensive. The greatest strength of Rubics is being able to stand at 6" and rapid fire, and then also assault into the enemy, and that usually means rhino rushing. While Overwatch isn't a make or break (I've put up my own posts on that), it does weaken the whole kit. Honestly, Necron Warriors/Immortals are more effective foot sloggers int he same role, and kind of makes me mourn the old days of two wounds.

3. The Tzeentch Tax. This is only if you're playing Thousand Sons as troops (I play thematic Thousand Sons, I won't use anything but Rubrics as my troops, because that's the whole point of their fluff), but if you are, then you need to buy the Tz-Marked Sorcerer (or Ahirman) in order to run these guys as your troops. While Chaos Sorcerers are really nice for being cheap, even on mastery 3, most people feel that the Lore of Tzeentch is so poor that the 'tax' of the extra power just isn't worth it. On top of that, Ahriman is far too costly as an HQ for what he does.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Don't forget the fact that, for their points, the Sons are awful at close combat. Normal CSM can just get 2 hand weapons and happily smash away at most things making them much better at breaching the enemy lines.

1k-Sons are also an incredible inflexible unit. They are good at shooting marines and nothing else. Against anything with a better or worse save their shooting offers nothing all the other CSM variants also provides with the same efficiency but at a much lower cost. Add to the fact that the Sons can't buy special weapons like melta or plasmaguns and you have an extremely expensive unit that only excels in very specific situations. Normal CSM, on the other hand, can easily be equipped to handle almost any situation they might encounter and still remain cheaper than the Sons.

Noone is really hating on the Sons. I love them. They are cool, have great models and fluff, but if you care about winning the sad fact is that they are pretty bad ruleswise.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Actually my friend has just used a Thousand Sons-heavy list in the Battle Brothers tournament up in GW Nottingham and did extremely well (can't remember, but know he finished with his friend in the top 5). Admittedly, with Tzeentch Daemon allies... I will try getting the list that was used and post it here. 

But yeah, once you see past the problems with them and learn to play them to their advantages and support them adequately, they are very powerful. 

I think the key is building a list with the right supporting units: Use other units to screen them and keep them away from small arms fire, add the usual flier, anti-fliers and long range fire support... *1ksons just do not work on their own.*


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I'd also like to point out I consider Slow and Purposeful one of the best things about them. Rapid firing with ap3 boltguns and then being able to charge is one of their most valuable assets. 

And a note on Ahriman: I constantly defend him and will probably continue to do so forever, because of how he synergises with the entire army, not his individual stats which are very average to say the least...Having 3 rolls on Telepathy means you are going to have at least 1 of the very good 3 psychic powers in that discipline. 
Invisibility is my favorite because of what it does to buff 1ksons squads, 2+ cover save, 4++, 3+ armour save, and once you rapid fire and charge into combat, your opponents are WS1...Then there is Hallucination: Fun Factor 10/10. Then Puppet Master where you can take control of melta and fuck up your opponents land raider... 
Icing on the cake is the Warlord Trait: Infiltrating D3 infantry units. Infiltrate a combi-melta termicide squad to take out that land raider. Infiltrate Obliterators. Infiltrate an allied horde of Plaguebearers. You get the picture.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Thousand Sons are horrendously overcosted. Killing 3 MEq for their cost is incredibly underwhelming, when for less I can grab something like 10 GKSS, 10 Grey Hunters in a Pod, Veterans, Fire Warriors, and do far more damage, AND be a scoring unit.

Also, the only actual good units (Heldrakes, Spawn and Obliterators) are really very expensive, so taking the most expensive troops you have available is a pretty bad idea.

Compare this to just taking Vanilla CSM in troops, and it should become clear why they suck. Also consider that if you want scoring options with AP3, Noise Marines are pretty much always better.

If you want TSs to score, you need to buy a Tzeentch Sorceror, which means using Tzeentch powers, which are also incredibly awful.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I have a pure sons army and love em' but they have major drawbacks

1 - Slow - You have to get them in rapid fire range or your wasting them, which mean you have to take a rhino or if taking Ahriman or Huron infiltrate. As they are slow, they can't overwatch, a huge drawback

2 - Not that tough - Seriously for the vast majority of shots they are no more survivable than a regular marine. If you run the numbers plague marines are actually a lot tougher until the big guns come into play

3 - Inflexible - They kill Meqs, thats it. They can't deal with hordes very well, they can't deal with Teqs, they can't deal with walkers and they can't deal with tanks. This is a HUGE drawback.

4 - Combat Lock. Unlike most csm units its very easy to get them combat locked and once their locked their locked, they don't fight CC well at all compared to most other meqs (Their effectively a regular tact squad without the overwatch or specials)

5 - Expensive - They are probably overpriced, and the sorcerer is overpriced compared to most over specials. 

If GW read its own fluff and allowed you to field Corvidae with divination on the apiring sorcerers I think they'd be worth it. Sons can work, but they are very unforgiving and they certainly do not react well to new threats


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> And a note on Ahriman: I constantly defend him and will probably continue to do so forever, because of how he synergises with the entire army, not his individual stats which are very average to say the least...Having 3 rolls on Telepathy means you are going to have at least 1 of the very good 3 psychic powers in that discipline.
> Invisibility is my favorite because of what it does to buff 1ksons squads, 2+ cover save, 4++, 3+ armour save, and once you rapid fire and charge into combat, your opponents are WS1...Then there is Hallucination: Fun Factor 10/10. Then Puppet Master where you can take control of melta and fuck up your opponents land raider...
> Icing on the cake is the Warlord Trait: Infiltrating D3 infantry units. Infiltrate a combi-melta termicide squad to take out that land raider. Infiltrate Obliterators. Infiltrate an allied horde of Plaguebearers. You get the picture.


All of which except Master of Deception are available for half the points on a basic Sorceror, who doesn't have to take a shitty Tzeentch power.

Thousand Sons are:
-Expensive
-Low output
-Fragile
-Encumbered with a crap squad leader
-Slow
-Inflexible
-Outclassed by every other decent unit in the book.

The last point is the deal-breaker. If Chaos had no, absolutely no Plasma Guns or AP3 guns in the army, Thousand Sons would have a place. But for less than 10 Thousand Sons, you can take a Heldrake, who has higher ranged output, is tougher, is cheaper, is faster, is more flexible with anti-vehicle capacity, and completely non-ignorable for your opponent. You can take Noise Marines with Blastmasters, who ignore cover, have longer range, do more wounds, and insta-kill most dudes. You could even take the Burning Brand of Skalathrax on a Lord for cheaper than 5 Thousand Sons, and he'd be better in just about every way imaginable (I'm not familiar with Chaos point values, but you could probably stick him on a Bike as well).

Midnight


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Lord on bike w skalathrax is 115 points compared to 150 points for 5 1k sons.

All the positive aspects of the thousand sons are rendered negligable because of the points cost. 5 terminators is only 7 points more expensive than 5 1k sons and they are a hell of a lot more versatile.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I just find it weird how this list came 3rd in the Battle Brothers tournament in Nottingham if 1ksons are supposedly so terrible and uncompetitive:

Terminator Sorcerer with the Burning Brand
2x 9 Man Thousand Son units with icon of flame
Heldrake with baleflamer
Lord of Change with 2 Greater and 1 Lesser Gift
18 Horrors with a lesser gift
6 Screamers 
3 Flamers

But I am so used to the internet hate for 1ksons I don't really bother discussing it online anymore (same old arguments that while most are true, mainly ignore the positives, and totally fly in the face of actual experience). So to each their own. :grin:


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Thousand Sons are fine _when supported_. You've just shown a list with 2 squads of Sons and half it's army dedicated to allies. That's support. What you CANT do is run Rubrics as your core strength.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Xabre said:


> Thousand Sons are fine _when supported_. You've just shown a list with 2 squads of Sons and half it's army dedicated to allies. That's support. What you CANT do is run Rubrics as your core strength.


Which is a core point I was making and thus I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems that only people who have actually bothered to play 1ksons as their core troop choices actually understand this.

Interesting that they are the core troop choices in that list though, aside from the horrors (cheap in comparison).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Xabre said:


> Thousand Sons are fine _when supported_. You've just shown a list with 2 squads of Sons and half it's army dedicated to allies. That's support. What you CANT do is run Rubrics as your core strength.


But Heldrakes are fine unsupported, so why take Thousand Sons?

Midnight


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Just because you do we'll in battle either a doesn't mean that you are a great player are most warhammer world events aren't that competitive, for instance I know my lists aren't that amazing yet at the past 3 warhammer world events I have won all my games because I was put with people who either had illegal lists, were new to the game or spammed one of the same unit across there army leaving them incredibly in-versatile. I'm not saying this guy isn't a good player, I have never fought him, it it were something like GT and maybe throne of skulls (not sure how competitive it is) then you would have a point.

As for thousand sons, there are much better units in the dex for the same points, especially if you don't take them as troops, I would take a drake or terminators over 1ksons anyday as tht are tougher and much harder to ignore.

That said very few of my games are that competitive (and when they are I normally use my crons as I have more stuff) and I don't have the units to make up the points so I generally take them anyway


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

falcoso said:


> Just because you do we'll in battle either a doesn't mean that you are a great player are most warhammer world events aren't that competitive, for instance I know my lists aren't that amazing yet at the past 3 warhammer world events I have won all my games because I was put with people who either had illegal lists, were new to the game or spammed one of the same unit across there army leaving them incredibly in-versatile. I'm not saying this guy isn't a good player, I have never fought him, it it were something like GT and maybe throne of skulls (not sure how competitive it is) then you would have a point.
> 
> As for thousand sons, there are much better units in the dex for the same points, especially if you don't take them as troops, I would take a drake or terminators over 1ksons anyday as tht are tougher and much harder to ignore.
> 
> That said very few of my games are that competitive (and when they are I normally use my crons as I have more stuff) and I don't have the units to make up the points so I generally take them anyway


Not really sure what you mean by "Just because you do well in battle, doesn't mean you are a great player". Don't think I ever claimed that reading back on my posts? The rest of your post contradicts itself so don't really know what point you are trying to get across, as first you say the BB event isn't competitive, then say that actually, "few of my games are competitive." 

As for pointing to better units in the codex, I think the general consensus is that 1ksons are taken as troop choices or not at all. Pointless taking them as Elites IMO. Heldrakes aren't scoring. 

My point was that no one here has actually bothered testing them in competitive environments, so if the OP was looking for actual experiences rather than the usual theories as to why 1ksons are apparently so bad, then no one here can say from experience...My examples were semi-competitive environments where 1ksons have done well. 
So either me and my friend are good players winning with bad units, or 1ksons aren't actually that bad, or all of our opponents sucked - which is what you are basically insinuating (I consider it bad form when people try discrediting people's experiences that fly against the 'online status quo' by making it personal though..."Oh well, all your opponents must be absolute noobs then!" - HA!!! Read comments like that all the time on dakka lol)...That or we were just really really lucky!! You know what my views are so not gonna bother saying anymore.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> As for pointing to better units in the codex, I think the general consensus is that 1ksons are taken as troop choices or not at all. Pointless taking them as Elites IMO. Heldrakes aren't scoring.


Firstly, no, they're *never* worth it. Secondly, on what kind of drug planet would Heldrakes not being Scoring be relevant?



Straken's_Fist said:


> My point was that no one here has actually bothered testing them in competitive environments, so if the OP was looking for actual experiences rather than the usual theories as to why 1ksons are apparently so bad, then no one here can say from experience...My examples were semi-competitive environments where 1ksons have done well.
> So either me and my friend are good players winning with bad units, or 1ksons aren't actually that bad, or all of our opponents sucked - which is what you are basically insinuating (I consider it bad form when people try discrediting people's experiences that fly against the 'online status quo' by making it personal though..."Oh well, all your opponents must be absolute noobs then!" - HA!!! Read comments like that all the time on dakka lol)...That or we were just really really lucky!! You know what my views are so not gonna bother saying anymore.


Yes, option A is correct; you are good players winning with bad units. Thousand Sons are not good. You can win with them, like you can win with Lychguard (falcoso frequently does, he knows the feeling). But the old adage 'A good general with a bad list will beat a bad general with a good list' is *fucking retarded*, because a good general with a good list will also beat a bad general with a good list. There is no reason at all to take Thousand Sons when you have CSM and Cultists if you want scoring bodies, and the Heldrake for literally anything else. If you want space egyptians made of animated suits of armour, sure, that's unavailable in the rest of the Codex. But in game terms, there is no purpose to the Thousand Sons.

Midnight


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Cool, so basically I am fucking amazing at playing toy soldiers. I can live with that, I guess... 

Personally, I love Thousand Sons: Space Egyptians look good and have the best fluff background in 40k IMO. Basically, I think if an army speaks to you, you should collect them and be damned with how competitive or uncompetitive they are...Make them work if you love them. If you just want competitive gaming just play chaos undivided, or collect necrons or something... 

Well, in summary it obviously seems we have to accept that Thousand Sons attracts some of the best players in 40k...Also the players with the highest drug tolerance and we definitely win the award for 'best in bed', biggest cock etc.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Basically, I think if an army speaks to you, you should collect them and be damned with how competitive or uncompetitive they are...Make them work if you love them.


I agree with this assessment. But then again, I am not in the competitive scene.

Do what you think is fun. Collect what you think is cool - If you want to get competitive, you will have to min/max and there Thousand Sons have little to no role. But in friendly games and for sheer fun factor, bring all the Egypt-robots you want!

It's a game after all - It's supposed to be fun! Some have the most fun with min/maxing, others don't. Sometimes it's hard to get advice, as people have different opinions as to what brings the most enjoyment of the game.

(Hell, yesterday I brought a Helbrute to a game. That's equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight).


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Not really sure what you mean by "Just because you do well in battle, doesn't mean you are a great player". Don't think I ever claimed that reading back on my posts? The rest of your post contradicts itself so don't really know what point you are trying to get across, as first you say the BB event isn't competitive, then say that actually, "few of my games are competitive."
> 
> Sorry that was my bad, I mean to say "just becasue you do well in battle brothers" - please note that I'm not calling you a bad player, in fact you could be amazing for all I know, but becasue anyone can participate in WHW events doing well doesn't mean your lists are good, they could be, but I don't know what sort of opponents you were facing.
> 
> ...





Straken's_Fist said:


> Cool, so basically I am fucking amazing at playing toy soldiers. I can live with that, I guess...
> 
> Personally, I love Thousand Sons: Space Egyptians look good and have the best fluff background in 40k IMO. Basically, I think if an army speaks to you, you should collect them and be damned with how competitive or uncompetitive they are...Make them work if you love them. If you just want competitive gaming just play chaos undivided, or collect necrons or something...
> 
> ...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Anyone who plays competitively will tell you that pretty much every event run at GWHQ is a non-starter when it comes to competitiveness. Again, like everyone says, I haven't seen you or your friend play so you could very well be the best generals since Scipio... or you could just be regularly panning people who think 30 tac marines on foot and 5 terminators with a Captain are a great army. We just don't know.

What we can tell you is that there are units in the CSM book *cough* Heldrake *cough* that will absolutely destroy Marines faster, for less cost than 1k Sons. Not only that, but they'll be better at numerous other jobs as well in arenas such as mobility, survivability, assault capability, scoring capability and so on. If you take Plasma gun armed bikers, for example, they kill just as many Marines, but are faster and tougher for the same points.

In a competitive sense, all of the above renders them pretty much null and void in favour of other choices. However if you win enough games to keep you happy while using them at the club level, and you like the models/fluff then by all means keep doing it. It's why I'll sometimes break out my 120-zombie Typhus list every now and again - it's not competitive at all but I enjoy playing it and still manage to win games. The trick is to not let yourself be fooled into thinking the list is "competitive". Only repeated testing in multiple different (non-GW run) tournaments can prove that one way or the other.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Not related to Thousand Sons, but to Heldrakes and something I'm seeing slung around - 'they're good at clearing objectives'. To save people the effort of writing out 'objectives' all the god damn time, I'll say this now: Shorten it to 'Heldrakes kill shit'. Because yes, they do clear objectives, but they usually clear most of the rest of the board too if your AA isn't seriously up to the challenge. To be honest, some armies don't care (Tau, FW Dark Angels, FW Imperial Guard) because they're taking a shitload of anti-air in their basic lists, but for armies that brought a lone Quad-Gun? Boy, you are in for some hurt.

*faps on Heldrake*

Midnight


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

So, this isn't about Thousand Sons? As for the Heldrake, I think it's because it might not be tough enough to handle more than a few somewhat weaker units at a time because it's a vehicle. A lucky penetrating hit will blow it out of the sky in one shot (AV12 and AV10 aren't that hard to pen), even with a 5++, whereas if it were a MC it would have multiple wounds and armor saves, which might help a little.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> So, this isn't about Thousand Sons? As for the Heldrake, I think it's because it might not be tough enough to handle more than a few somewhat weaker units at a time because it's a vehicle. A lucky penetrating hit will blow it out of the sky in one shot (AV12 and AV10 aren't that hard to pen), even with a 5++, whereas if it were a MC it would have multiple wounds and armor saves, which might help a little.


Hit on 6s. AV12, when most AA guns are Str7. IWND. 5+ Invuln. Daemonic Possession. Flyer with Torrent and no transport capacity (so immune to Vector Lock). A lucky hit can be a lucky pen can get through the invulnerable save has a 33% chance to do damage the Heldrake cares about (Weapon Destroyed, which for a Heldrake is the same as Destroyed). It is *extremely* tough.

Midnight


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

But it does still roll over to various lists - Terminator Rock, Pure Mechdar, Deathwing, Draigowing, Tri Raider etc.

Of course most of those archetypes are less competitive than standard, ironically, but it has done a great job of reducing the number of armies fielding 15 ML Long Fangs, which makes me happy.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Ok, I am not going to argue that the Heldrake is one of the best units in the game right now: Infact I would even go as far as to say it is overpowered for 170pts. I only own one, but it is an absolute rape machine that always earns it's points back and then some. Personally I do not want to take more than one, and that is just solely down to my personal feelings: I would feel too 'cheesey' for taking anymore and I cannot really justify it in the fluff of my army, so my personal choice is to not take more than one. Other reason is because I really enjoy slaneshi bikers, and so need to save Fast Attack slots for them! 
Of course you could take 3 Heldrakes. They will rape the crap into everything. But if you don't want to spam the same unit, Thousand Sons are going to be that other unit that can deal with MEQ and can hold objectives soaking up high ap and high strength weapons. If you want to strike a balance between competitiveness and spamming units to do so, then I still maintain 1ksons are not a bad choice. You can make them work with effort. 
So, since the OP didn't specify if he wanted to know about competitive or non-competitive environments, I thought i'd give my view on the subject, with anecdotal experiences me and friends have had in semi-competitive environments. Take it or leave it against the theoretical evidence, and do whatever you enjoy doing. 

I would like to say though I am not a great player and was just taking the piss with those comments...

And fuck me, I forgot about the 5++ on Heldrake...I also regularly forget about daemonforge. So I haven't even been playing it to it's full potential yet. Scary!


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

What's even more crazy is there is a thing in the Deamons dex which goes all models with the deamon rule a 3++ (or something like that)...

I totally get what you mean with the spamming of units, you may win games but you aren't going to play many more, granted now and the. I will make a fun list. And yes in that case 1ksons would potentially be a choice if you wanted that much meq killing, but as other people said 1ksons need support, and in this case they would have it.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

falcoso said:


> What's even more crazy is there is a thing in the Deamons dex which goes all models with the deamon rule a 3++ (or something like that)...


One daemon unit per turn. Not all. With a 1/3 chance of backfiring and instead reducing the invulnerable save to 6+.

Pedant-Man... away! (Swoops into the distance)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> But if you don't want to spam the same unit, Thousand Sons are going to be that other unit that can deal with MEQ and can hold objectives soaking up high ap and high strength weapons. If you want to strike a balance between competitiveness and spamming units to do so, then I still maintain 1ksons are not a bad choice. You can make them work with effort.


But that's poor tactics, or perhaps I should say a poor strategy. Some of the more seasoned users might remember the awful shitstorm that my thread on Defilers and why they're so bad started. Essentially, after a lot of butthurt, we established that you could take Defilers, but you could take Obliterators instead, and therefore Defilers were even more crap than their bad profile and confused arsenal implied.

The article is 'Why the hate for Thousand Sons?'. The answer is because they do nothing a Heldrake can't do better. It's all relative.

Midnight


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> But that's poor tactics, or perhaps I should say a poor strategy.


Maybe it is 'poor tactics' in your view. But you really do continue to miss the point and I am not sure why: So i'll just repeat myself and bow out of this dead-end conversation: _If you don't want to spam the same unit, Thousand Sons are another option..._. Not everyone picks an army or list based purely on how competitive they will be. Yes, this is handicapping yourself strategically...But you'll hear it time and time again from people that they find it more fun winning with a list that is fluffy (even in campaign/tournament environments). Other people just like playing it for gaming sake, which I respect too. Unfortunately they don't often seem to show the same respect to people who play 40k for other reasons. 
I find it a bit stupid I have to explain this as I thought it would be obvious, but I guess not. I also don't buy into the argument that it's pointless discussing a unit if you aren't going to discuss it from a pure competitive viewpoint. Why? People at gaming clubs discuss units from various viewpoints, so I don't see why it should be any different online. I mean, if you don't like discussing how 'fun' a unit is or how a unit plays semi-competitively then you don't have to reply, or just be like "Well, this is my view from a competitive viewpoint..."...
I mean, if we just wanted to hear opinions from competitive viewpoints then forums would be kind of pointless and sterile, because we could just do the mathhammer then go home without any point of discussion. Sorry but that's fucking boring.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

In which case, what would be the point of discussing these things at all? One could say 'Hey, I want an army JUST SCOUTS as Troops! Go go gadget 10th company! How do I win?' (hey, it's an option if you don't want to spam Tacticals), to which the answer would be 'Well you have two choices. Drop the army concept, you useless buffoon, or lose a lot'. At semi-competitive, that's still true. At really _really_ low level gaming, you just run those Scouts up the board with their shitty small arms and inaccurate heavy weapons and win anyway, because your opponent took an Inquisitor army with loads of flavour and theme and it was Coteaz, 3 Inquisitors with Daemonblades, and then just Banishers and Arco-Flagellants, therefore removing the need for tactics, and therefore rendering it pointless to discuss them.

Midnight


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