# Lorgar Aurelian the most powerful psyker of the primarchs? (spoilers)



## Lux

After the new Aurelian Novella it depicts how much Lorgar changed post drop site massacre. To the point where his psyker power is able to prevent Horus from laying a hand on him or restraining him, as well as perceiving the daemon in Fulgrim when Magnus did not and Logar nearly killed daemon Fulgrim


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## spanner94ezekiel

In the words of Heath Ledger's Joker:

"And here, we, go!"


Let the flaming begin. FLAME ON!


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## Lux

why flame? I am being genuinely sincere in my questions. Have you read Aurellian? Even from the free chapter one excerpt it displays how much Lorgar had grown in psyker power.

To the point where he frosted the room and armors of his brother primarchs with merely his presence, and then proceeded to put the Daemon fulgrim into a constant near death state.

Additionally, when Horus attempted to restrain him Lorgar used his psyker powers to prevent that.


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## Khorne's Fist

It does seem that his exposure to the truth of the warp has, if not increased his power, it certainly has made him more willing to face people down. I've only read the extract in _Hammer and Bolter_, but even in that he really seems to have grown a pair. He attacks Fulgrim, and seems willing to take on all the rest of his brothers. He even calls Horus a fool, and is able to overpower him psychically.

He is even seemingly strong enough to worry Magnus, rattling him over the huge distance between them, and even threatening to make Horus regret it if he tried to read his mind a second time. "There is no longer any need to hold back. If we restrain ourselves we will lose this war." This seems to indicate that he was always this powerful, he just was afraid to cut loose with his power.


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## Lux

It should also be noted when Magnus attempted to read his mind and enter his mind psychically, he then thrusts Magnus out and threatens him as you stated. To the point where Magnus was unable to do anything to Logar, and also as you stated he shut horus down when he attempted to overpower and restrain Logar.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lux, do you think Lorgar's resemblance to the Emperor has anything to do with it? Out of all the Primarchs, he is the most similar to the Emperor in terms of appearance.

Could it be that Lorgar.... 












is in fact a clone of the Emperor, the most powerful psyker to have ever lived? It could explain why the Emperor stopped Lorgar from worshiping him after several years because he grew tired of a subservient clone whom he wanted to shape into a person more like himself.

Just think of what the Emperor could do with a clone of himself so that he could go all Alpharius/Omegon/I'mAlpharius on everyone. 

Curse you Lux. Now I will not be able to sleep with all these questions haunting me at night.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The most powerful psyker of the Primarchs? No, that title still goes to Magnus. However, we know that all the Primarchs have psychic abilities of varying degrees, latent or not. I've read the first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (its not even on pre-order yet _Lux_, how have you got a full copy?) and it seems to clearly suggest that Lorgar had stopped restraining himself in terms of his psychic abilities (as was the case throughout _The First Heretic_), I don't necessarily think it was as a result of his new dedication to Chaos, merely that he had always been capable of such things but he had chosen to restrain himself because he feared it.


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## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> Just think of what the Emperor could do with a clone of himself so that he could go all Alpharius/Omegon/I'm Alpharius on everyone.


LOL...made me spill my coffee

I think Chaos vastly boosted whatever power he had


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## Warlock in Training

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The most powerful psyker of the Primarchs? No, that title still goes to Magnus. However, we know that all the Primarchs have psychic abilities of varying degrees, latent or not. I've read the first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (its not even on pre-order yet _Lux_, how have you got a full copy?) and it seems to clearly suggest that Lorgar had stopped restraining himself in terms of his psychic abilities (as was the case throughout _The First Heretic_), I don't necessarily think it was as a result of his new dedication to Chaos, merely that he had always been capable of such things but he had chosen to restrain himself because he feared it.


I agree....


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## locustgate

Is it possible to ban him? I mean he constantly posts in the wrong section and constantly trolls, warp that's more than enough to get you banned on tons of servers.


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## DeathJester921

locustgate said:


> Is it possible to ban him? I mean he constantly posts in the wrong section and constantly trolls, warp that's more than enough to get you banned on tons of servers.


I really don't think he's done anything worth getting banned over. So why ask? Every forum has its trolls. Hell, most of the people on this forum either humor him, ignore him, or, for some reason, flame him.

Posting in the wrong section is a pretty stupid reason to get banned over, even if you do post in the wrong section repeatedly. Perhaps if you do it more than 15-20 times i'd get tired of it, but then again, i'm a tolerant person. Slow to annoy/piss of/whatever.


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## Jerushee

locustgate said:


> Is it possible to ban him? I mean he constantly posts in the wrong section and constantly trolls, warp that's more than enough to get you banned on tons of servers.


Tell me how is this topic in the wrong section or trolling?

Is it not pertaining to the fluff of the wh40k universe? Is it not a novella from the black library?

Is not everything I stated in the first chapter?


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## gen.ahab




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## Warlock in Training

I love House.... BRO!


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## Words_of_Truth

Imo I think they took that direction with Lorgar because of everyone saying he acted like a pansy in _The First Heretic_.


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## gen.ahab

Words_of_Truth said:


> Imo I think they took that direction with Lorgar because of everyone saying he acted like a pansy in _The First Heretic_.


No, it was the entire plan from the beginning. Lorgar was always a BAMF, just didn't have the drive.


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## Malus Darkblade

How was it the plan from the beginning?

Lorgar was always portrayed as the son who did not want to follow the path set out for him, the wayward son, the hippy who doesn't want to follow in his war-mongering father's footsteps-preferring to win over the hearts and minds of isolated worlds as opposed to forcing them into the Imperium with brute force.

Then all of a sudden ADB shows up and pulls a 180 with his persona.

I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans. 

It wouldn't make sense either for the Word Bearers, one of the most vicious of the traitor legions, to of had a sissy Primarch.


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## gen.ahab

Malus Darkblade said:


> How was it the plan from the beginning?
> 
> Lorgar was always portrayed as the son who did not want to follow the path set out for him, the wayward son, the hippy who doesn't want to follow in his war-mongering father's footsteps-preferring to win over the hearts and minds of isolated worlds as opposed to forcing them into the Imperium with brute force.
> 
> Then all of a sudden ADB shows up and pulls a 180 with his persona.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans.
> 
> It wouldn't make sense either for the Word Bearers, one of the most vicious of the traitor legions, to of had a sissy Primarch.


He was the son who was openly rebuked by his father, and shamed in from of his legion. The son whose faith was shattered along with his entire sense of purpose and self. The chaos gods came in and gave him what he wanted, a god, or gods to be more specific, and the power to achieve retribution. Really, Lorgar did pull a 180. He always did. Even in the old fluff he went from being one of the most loyal sons to a living avatar of chaos and the mortal (kinda) representative of the gods in the material realm. It stands to reason he would have completely changed in many aspects of himself.

EDIT: But this is way off topic, well.... no way off, but off. If you want to argue it, or whatever, best to set up another thread.... or, better yet, email Aaron and ask him.


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## Unknown Primarch

id like to think that because lorgar is the original chaos worshipper out of the primarchs and the sole reason for the HH happening that he has a far greater awareness of the vagueries of the warp and a close understanding of the chaos god that either through granted powers or just total self-enlightenment he has become what the rest of the daemon-primarch are not and that is the favoured son of chaos undivided.

for me lorgar was always destined to follow chaos and seeing as he embraced chaos so fully and in a manner that the chaos gods really appreciated (if thats possible) he is that next step up from the rest of them. he in essence is the one true follower of chaos compared to his brothers who turned traitor for pretty much selfish reasons.

lorgar saw chaos for what it was and believed, surely that is the key factor in why he had become so powerful.


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## Malus Darkblade

gen.ahab said:


> He was the son who was openly rebuked by his father, and shamed in from of his legion. The son whose faith was shattered along with his entire sense of purpose and self. The chaos gods came in and gave him what he wanted, a god, or gods to be more specific, and the power to achieve retribution. Really, Lorgar did pull a 180. He always did. Even in the old fluff he went from being one of the most loyal sons to a living avatar of chaos and the mortal (kinda) representative of the gods in the material realm. It stands to reason he would have completely changed in many aspects of himself.


He could have still been the same personality wise after his safari trip to the EoT but the fans wanted blood and so ADB gave it to them.

I don't think the Chaos powers simply willed Lorgar to change mentally, rather he did it himself after his Istaavan.



gen.ahab said:


> EDIT: But this is way off topic, well.... no way off, but off. If you want to argue it, or whatever, best to set up another thread.... or, better yet, email Aaron and ask him.


Arm-chair moderating is hot.

@UP: Lorgar did not see Chaos for what it was. He thought they had humanity's best intentions in mind hence why he was so adamant in switching over to them and asking his brothers to join. 

Chaos screwed him over but they felt bad and tossed him a bone and made him a Daemon Prince in exchange that he shut himself in a room and not come out for thousands upon thousands of years.


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## jaysen

I loved the First Heretic. It was one of the best of the HH, imo. You have character development, believable drama, and a sickeningly twisted plot.

Isn't it odd that it seems the Emperor intentionally pushed Lorgar over the edge? Hmmmm... Could it be that the Emperor actually instigated the Horus Heresy himself?


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## harlokin

jaysen said:


> I loved the First Heretic. It was one of the best of the HH, imo. You have character development, believable drama, and a sickeningly twisted plot.
> 
> Isn't it odd that it seems the Emperor intentionally pushed Lorgar over the edge? Hmmmm... Could it be that the Emperor actually instigated the Horus Heresy himself?


If you start from the position that The Emperor is an infallible being, you will tie yourself in knots trying to figure out his motives.

Far easier to suppose that he is an entirely fallible, albeit ultra powerful, human being.


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## Malus Darkblade

The notion that the Emperor is just human irritates me for some reason.

I suppose it is undeniable simply because of the fact that if he wasn't, he wouldn't have stuck with humanity for so long.

I used to have a theory that he was the last of the Old Ones and simply taking on the guise of a human lol.


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## harlokin

I know what you mean. The Emperor secretly being a frog man would be amusing. 

That said, I really enjoyed the depiction of him in The Last Church, where the old priest perceives violence and strong emotions beneath The Emperor's calm, rational exterior. It made a character that can suffer from 'bland superman syndrome' more believable.


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## Malus Darkblade

Yeah that story was beautiful in every way and perhaps the only exception to my preference for no one writing a piece centered on the Emperor again. 

You just can't mess with his image and it would take so little to belittle his reputation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> How was it the plan from the beginning?
> 
> Lorgar was always portrayed as the son who did not want to follow the path set out for him, the wayward son, the hippy who doesn't want to follow in his war-mongering father's footsteps-preferring to win over the hearts and minds of isolated worlds as opposed to forcing them into the Imperium with brute force.
> 
> Then all of a sudden ADB shows up and pulls a 180 with his persona.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans.
> 
> It wouldn't make sense either for the Word Bearers, one of the most vicious of the traitor legions, to of had a sissy Primarch.


Lorgar was never weak or a "sissy", he always had the potential to be as powerful or aggressive as any of his brothers. He just had a very different philosophy and belief structure to the rest of the Primarchs. The dilemma he went through when he turned from the Emperor would only logically result in him drastically changing his own nature, he would never have coped otherwise. The first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (available in H&B) justifies why he changed so much in so little time. It wasn't because some narrow-minded fans were whinging about him being weak.


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar was never weak or a "sissy", he always had the potential to be as powerful or aggressive as any of his brothers. He just had a very different philosophy and belief structure to the rest of the Primarchs. The dilemma he went through when he turned from the Emperor would only logically result in him drastically changing his own nature, he would never have coped otherwise. The first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (available in H&B) justifies why he changed so much in so little time. It wasn't because some narrow-minded fans were whinging about him being weak.


To be fair, just because it's been justified in the book doesn't mean the real reason for it was because fans thought he was a sissy.


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## Sangriento

harlokin said:


> If you start from the position that The Emperor is an infallible being, you will tie yourself in knots trying to figure out his motives.
> 
> Far easier to suppose that he is an entirely fallible, albeit ultra powerful, human being.


I tend to side with Grammaticus, and suppose he is a blood thirsty sick bastard


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Imo I think they took that direction with Lorgar because of everyone saying he acted like a pansy in _The First Heretic_.





Malus Darkblade said:


> How was it the plan from the beginning?


By being the plan. We're playing a long game here, describing characters and events over the span of a war that changed the entire galaxy. It's called character development.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm of the opinion that it was clearly to dismiss the former depictions of a weak Lorgar and to appease the fans.


Ah. Yeah, it couldn't be that an author had a good idea, or a plan to actually have some character development, and create a primarch more interesting than the relatively static beings we've seen elsewhere. It's because he has no integrity and got scared of a few fans calling a character "weak" in what's consistently reviewed as one of the best books in the series. 

I'll give you a spoiler. If you think the answer to a question is "Because a few fans complained", you are always wrong.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar was never weak or a "sissy", he always had the potential to be as powerful or aggressive as any of his brothers. He just had a very different philosophy and belief structure to the rest of the Primarchs. The dilemma he went through when he turned from the Emperor would only logically result in him drastically changing his own nature, he would never have coped otherwise. The first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (available in H&B) justifies why he changed so much in so little time. It wasn't because some narrow-minded fans were whinging about him being weak.


I love you muchly for getting it. I didn't think it was that hard to see, in all honesty, and thankfully most of the reviews I've seen back that up.

To say "Lorgar was weak" as if that was all there was to it sort of misses the point and signifies a shocking blindness to nuance.

The galactic war had finally kicked off, and whether he liked it or not, he was committed to a side. The battle lines had been chosen, and destiny awaited.

It was, in every way - spiritually, emotionally, physically and militarily - time to nut up or shut up.

And he nutted up.


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## gen.ahab

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> By being the plan. We're playing a long game here, describing characters and events over the span of a war that changed the entire galaxy. It's called character development.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. Yeah, it couldn't be that an author had a good idea, or a plan to actually have some character development, and create a primarch more interesting than the relatively static beings we've seen elsewhere. It's because he has no integrity and got scared of a few fans calling a character "weak" in what's consistently reviewed as one of the best books in the series.
> 
> I'll give you a spoiler. If you think the answer to a question is "Because a few fans complained", you are always wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I love you muchly for getting it. I didn't think it was that hard to see, in all honesty, and thankfully most of the reviews I've seen back that up.
> 
> To say "Lorgar was weak" as if that was all there was to it sort of misses the point and signifies a shocking blindness to nuance.
> 
> The galactic war had finally kicked off, and whether he liked it or not, he was committed to a side. The battle lines had been chosen, and destiny awaited.
> 
> It was, in every way - spiritually, emotionally, physically and militarily - time to nut up or shut up.
> 
> And he nutted up.


Ah ha! Victory! Victory for the wrong reasons, maybe, but a victory it remains. :crazy:


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## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> By being the plan. We're playing a long game here, describing characters and events over the span of a war that changed the entire galaxy. It's called character development.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. Yeah, it couldn't be that an author had a good idea, or a plan to actually have some character development, and create a primarch more interesting than the relatively static beings we've seen elsewhere. It's because he has no integrity and got scared of a few fans calling a character "weak" in what's consistently reviewed as one of the best books in the series.
> 
> I'll give you a spoiler. If you think the answer to a question is "Because a few fans complained", you are always wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I love you muchly for getting it. I didn't think it was that hard to see, in all honesty, and thankfully most of the reviews I've seen back that up.
> 
> To say "Lorgar was weak" as if that was all there was to it sort of misses the point and signifies a shocking blindness to nuance.
> 
> The galactic war had finally kicked off, and whether he liked it or not, he was committed to a side. The battle lines had been chosen, and destiny awaited.
> 
> It was, in every way - spiritually, emotionally, physically and militarily - time to nut up or shut up.
> 
> And he nutted up.


Thanks for the response 

I did think it could of been a reasonable reason for his sudden change, there was a lot of discussion about how "weak" he came across so I hope you can appreciate the speculation. It was a very blunt difference which in relation to other writings it could come across as a deliberate alteration to veer away from that perception. 

Of course there's the more sensible reason that it was always planned which you have confirmed to be true. 

Edit: On the smallest of hope, could you tell Matt Ward to put down the fluff pen in future? For the sake of Necron's self respect at least


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## Deadeye776

If you look at the Emperor's sons I think you can get a good glimpse of who he was behind the scenes. All 20 of them, with the obivious exclusion of the two he had to make not exist anymore. Lorgar and the Haunter. Bloodthirsty and thriving on fear.Gulliman and Dorn. Pride and Nobility. The Lion and Russ. Paranoia and Unflinching loyalty. You can keep it going but the 350,000 or so pyskers that make up the Emperor maybe should have been screened better. That many people coming together with warp exposure, your bound to have a couple with social disorders.

The Emperor isn't a human in my opinion as much as he is an avatar. His conciousness has never been a singular entity but a collective of all the dead pyskers akin to the Hive Mind. Certain factors could contribute to his decision making that may come from corners of his mind he may not even be aware of. Think about it. If you read the Draco series, to manage the Imperium better he split himself down into 7. Why?

He says it was to better manage the Imperium but I think it's the other psykers conciousness trying to break free. His opinions and decisions don't make sense to anyone save the Sigillite ( maybe) and himself. He says he lives in a constant state of agony and I think the reason for this is without his physical body to house it, his conciousness is tearing itself apart. 

I think it would be awesome if, years from now, that we find bL making a origin of the Emperor book like the did with Sigmar. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to learn that Khorne and Tzeentch had sent agents into the meeting where the pyskers decided to kill themselves and form the entity that would become the Emperor. That would account for out of all his characteristics, the one that unsettles people around him the most was his violent and bloodthirst and his proclivity to keep secrets and plot.


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## Ultra111

Deadeye776 said:


> If you look at the Emperor's sons I think you can get a good glimpse of who he was behind the scenes. All 20 of them, with the obivious exclusion of the two he had to make not exist anymore. Lorgar and the Haunter. Bloodthirsty and thriving on fear.Gulliman and Dorn. Pride and Nobility. The Lion and Russ. Paranoia and Unflinching loyalty. You can keep it going but the 350,000 or so pyskers that make up the Emperor maybe should have been screened better. That many people coming together with warp exposure, your bound to have a couple with social disorders.
> 
> The Emperor isn't a human in my opinion as much as he is an avatar. His conciousness has never been a singular entity but a collective of all the dead pyskers akin to the Hive Mind. Certain factors could contribute to his decision making that may come from corners of his mind he may not even be aware of. Think about it. If you read the Draco series, to manage the Imperium better he split himself down into 7. Why?
> 
> He says it was to better manage the Imperium but I think it's the other psykers conciousness trying to break free. His opinions and decisions don't make sense to anyone save the Sigillite ( maybe) and himself. He says he lives in a constant state of agony and I think the reason for this is without his physical body to house it, his conciousness is tearing itself apart.
> 
> I think it would be awesome if, years from now, that we find bL making a origin of the Emperor book like the did with Sigmar. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to learn that Khorne and Tzeentch had sent agents into the meeting where the pyskers decided to kill themselves and form the entity that would become the Emperor. That would account for out of all his characteristics, the one that unsettles people around him the most was his violent and bloodthirst and his proclivity to keep secrets and plot.


Isn't the "Psykers killing themselves to form a single being" thing only a theory though? It isn't actually a given right?


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## DelValle

Deadeye776 said:


> If you look at the Emperor's sons I think you can get a good glimpse of who he was behind the scenes. All 20 of them, with the obivious exclusion of the two he had to make not exist anymore. Lorgar and the Haunter. Bloodthirsty and thriving on fear.Gulliman and Dorn. Pride and Nobility. The Lion and Russ. Paranoia and Unflinching loyalty. You can keep it going but the 350,000 or so pyskers that make up the Emperor maybe should have been screened better. That many people coming together with warp exposure, your bound to have a couple with social disorders.
> 
> The Emperor isn't a human in my opinion as much as he is an avatar. His conciousness has never been a singular entity but a collective of all the dead pyskers akin to the Hive Mind. Certain factors could contribute to his decision making that may come from corners of his mind he may not even be aware of. Think about it. If you read the Draco series, to manage the Imperium better he split himself down into 7. Why?
> 
> He says it was to better manage the Imperium but I think it's the other psykers conciousness trying to break free. His opinions and decisions don't make sense to anyone save the Sigillite ( maybe) and himself. He says he lives in a constant state of agony and I think the reason for this is without his physical body to house it, his conciousness is tearing itself apart.
> 
> I think it would be awesome if, years from now, that we find bL making a origin of the Emperor book like the did with Sigmar. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to learn that Khorne and Tzeentch had sent agents into the meeting where the pyskers decided to kill themselves and form the entity that would become the Emperor. That would account for out of all his characteristics, the one that unsettles people around him the most was his violent and bloodthirst and his proclivity to keep secrets and plot.


Khorne and Tzeentch, along with the other Warp gods, weren't around during the creation of the Emperor.


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## Deadeye776

I pretty much thought it was a given. Don't quote me on that though. I don't know EVERYTHING about 40k obviously. When you look up the Emperor that pretty much what comes up. Born something BC in modern day Anatolia. Thousands and Thousands of shamans and other beings not yet known as psykers coming to the conclusion it would be a wrap for humanity if they didn't do something and thought to combine their powers. Maybe they saw what would become the gods or the actual entities and understood they were a vast collection of negative energy. So then maybe by doing the same thing with ( what they hoped was) good energy they could have something that would help humankind. Like I said though this is more my take on it.


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## darkreever

Unfortunately Deadeye776, the fluff your thinking of and referencing is no longer considered canon. Originally it was confirmed/strongly hinted that the Emperor was born not of mortal means, but is the creation of a cabal of shamans/early psykers who sacrificed themselves to create the being known as the Emperor.

GW nixed that from canon; I believe around the time they put an end to the Sensei and Illuminati fluff.


While those things no longer exist as confirmed fluff, theres no reason that we cannot treat them as baseless rumours within the 40k universe. (Last I recall, the Illuminati are a hunted group of radicals.)


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## MidnightSun

DelValle said:


> Khorne and Tzeentch, along with the other Warp gods, weren't around during the creation of the Emperor.


Actually Khorne was. It says that he made an ancient Terran Warlord into Doombreed when he was a young God.

Besides, it's hard to say 'They didn't exist then'. The Chaos Gods have always existed, but have never existed.

Midnight


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## Ultra111

MidnightSun said:


> Actually Khorne was. It says that he made an ancient Terran Warlord into Doombreed when he was a young God.
> 
> Besides, it's hard to say 'They didn't exist then'. The Chaos Gods have always existed, but have never existed.
> 
> Midnight


Oh cool, where is that stated about Doombread? I'd like to give it a read.


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## Words_of_Truth

Ultra111 said:


> Oh cool, where is that stated about Doombread? I'd like to give it a read.


Think it's in Codex Daemons, although it may also be in one of the Imperial Armour books, siege of vraks for example.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> there was a lot of discussion about how "weak" he came across so I hope you can appreciate the speculation.


It should have been obvious though that Lorgar was never _weak_. He was a Primarch, a son of the Emperor, that alone should have been enough to deter anyone from calling him _weak_. He wasn't unnecessarily aggressive, he wasn't a warmonger, he wasn't a warlord. He was a philosopher who attempted to enlighten the emergent Imperium through logic, reason and faith. I fail to see how that instead makes him weak. As I said before, he always had the potential to be as aggressive or powerful as any of his brothers, but he chose not to (until post-Isstvan at least).



Words_of_Truth said:


> It was a very blunt difference which in relation to other writings it could come across as a deliberate alteration to veer away from that perception.


You have to put it in context. Lorgar had fallen to Chaos decades before Isstvan V, the sheer amount of suspense and anxiety at how he would enlighten humanity to the lies of the Emperor, and the eventual acceptance that it could only be achieved through bloodshed and war would have seriously played on his mind. When Horus fell and the Heresy finally erupted Lorgar realised that (in the words of AD-B) _"it was, in every way - spiritually, emotionally, physically and militarily - time to nut up or shut up."_ 

It should be obvious that when the Heresy erupted (after having plotted it for so many decades, and a major change in his philosophy seemingly having not yet occured) a major psychological shift in Lorgar's psyche would have occured. He couldn't have maintained his Crusade-era philosophical stance, it just wasn't viable. He had embraced new powers as his masters, and as the masters of Mankind, he had rejected his father (as a god as well as a father) and instigated what was to become the greatest civil war in human history. Just think about what that would do to an individual. He realised on Isstvan V that he had to change, and by the time of the post-Isstvan meeting (as shown in _Aurelian_) he had, and drastically. In his own words: _"...And after Isstvan a veil lifted from my eyes. There is no longer any need to hold back. If we restrain ourselves, we will lose this war, and humanity will lose its only chance at enlightenment."_

Lorgar's change in character from _The First Heretic_ to _Aurelian_ is a logical and reasonable shift given the circumstances. It was obviously not because some people falsely perceived him as being weak and started unreasonably whinging. 



Ultra111 said:


> Oh cool, where is that stated about Doombread? I'd like to give it a read.


There is a very small paragraph in _Codex: Chaos Space Marines_, thats it in the latest edition as far as im aware.


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## Deadeye776

Sooooooo okay then. What's the official word on how he came to be? I actually think this is kind of shitty. I always thought his origins in the initial fluff was kind of bad ass.Now he's just an ultra powerful omega class psyker? Do they give another explanation for his level of power?


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## Lord Solar Terminus

Sorry for the thread necro, but since the previous conversation never reached a conclusion, I thought to offer my two cents. 

Regarding canon: According to Dan Abnett, Gav Thorpe, our own ADB, and others, Warhammer 40K doesn't have anything resembling hard canon. There are some broad common elements, sure, but each author is free to cherry-pick elements they like and discard those they don't. That's how we can end up with backflipping terminators with multilazorz and Slaanesh-worshiping pedophile Farseers, although since then BL has tried to keep such egregious flights of fancy to a minimum. The Horus Heresy series in particular is supposed to emphasize consistency and continuity, as it is a team effort in many ways. 

Regarding the Emperor's origins: Whether you prefer studio material over Black Library or vice versa, at no point has the original shaman story been retconned or explicitly stated to be invalid, and no alternative storylines have been proposed. Therefore, in as far as there is canon in 40K, the shaman storyline remains "official". 

The same can be said about the Illuminati (although I don't like to think about those books; despite the torturous writing style, the first two managed to set up an interesting story, but the third book wasted all that potential on stupid irrelevant bullshit). 

Regarding Lorgar in The First Heretic: The perception of Lorgar as weak is not just the whining of a few fans, but a sentiment I often see expressed in various forum discussions. He comes across as a religious nutjob desperate for something, anything, greater than himself to believe in and give his life meaning. After his ludicrously over-the-top chastising by the Emperor, he lets himself be manipulated by a corrupt old man and a power-hungry Astartes. Kor Phaeron and Erebus seem to mastermind the whole Heresy, while Lorgar is off seeking his answers. And even when they arrive at the Eye, he sends his Captain to get those answers in his stead. This sentiment extends to the characters in the book, as well, with most of the Primarchs except Magnus seemingly holding Lorgar in contempt, and I'm pretty sure at one point the Custodes assigned to babysit him refer to Lorgar as "this weakling Primarch". If in the new novel Lorgar has finally decided to "nut up", then ipso facto he was not "nutting up" before, i.e. being somewhat of a pansy. 

Speaking of the new novel, I have yet to read it, since the only way to acquire it right now is to shell out $80+ on eBay. BL seems to be determined to keep people from reading this book. Anyway, I'm glad Lorgar has toughened up, but I have to raise an eyebrow at some of the feats described in this thread, as they are approaching Wardian proportions. I can buy it if at this point Lorgar has fully committed to the Chaos Gods and is well on his way to Daemon Princehood, but if such prowess is merely the result of him "nutting up", then it feels very much as gratuitous over-compensation. I mean, out-psykering Magnus? Really?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord Solar Terminus said:


> I mean, out-psykering Magnus? Really?


People have over exaggerated when they claimed Lorgar _"out-psykered"_ Magnus. He didn't.


----------



## Emperors Mercy

Did Magnus not admit he saw that Fulgrim was empty as well?


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## rafunparked

I dont have my copy of Aurelian with me but everyone seems to forget when horus sends all his brothers away to talk to lorgar alone magnus tells him it takes alot of energy to have the psychic conference from across the galaxy. So the fact that lorgar was able to I guess you could say nip at magnus is simple. Its not hard to knock down a guy whos running a marathon when you haven't done anything yourself. And he didnt "restrain" horus he just kind of checked him and showed him now is not a good time to play his diplomatic games. After all thats what horus was chosen for in the first place.


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## Londinium

Emperors Mercy said:


> Did Magnus not admit he saw that Fulgrim was empty as well?


Yup he realised that Fulgrim wasn't 'Fulgrim' as soon as he projected his presence into the meeting room, he actually explicitly says it. So how people manage to get Lorgar realising it and Magnus not, I really don't know.

It's also fairly obvious (at least to me) that Magnus doesn't want a confrontation with Lorgar and is holding back along with having to expend a lot of power just to be present there; Lorgar is acting testy and looking for a fight while Magnus wants to know what has changed and realised that threatening Lorgar isn't going to work anymore.


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## mob16151

harlokin said:


> If you start from the position that The Emperor is an infallible being, you will tie yourself in knots trying to figure out his motives.
> 
> Far easier to suppose that he is an entirely fallible, albeit ultra powerful, human being.


To paraphrase the emperor from the outcast dead.



The problem with being omnipotent, and omniscient is you can't be both at once.


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## Zooey72

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lorgar was never weak or a "sissy", he always had the potential to be as powerful or aggressive as any of his brothers. He just had a very different philosophy and belief structure to the rest of the Primarchs. The dilemma he went through when he turned from the Emperor would only logically result in him drastically changing his own nature, he would never have coped otherwise. The first three chapters of _Aurelian_ (available in H&B) justifies why he changed so much in so little time. It wasn't because some narrow-minded fans were whinging about him being weak.


Was looking for when they would release this to the masses and got to reading this post. Sorry COTE, he cried when he saw Argel Tal after he sent him into the eye. I can't see Astartes crying, much less a Primarch. That secured his title of "Sissy" in my book.

Only time you would see Angron cry is if he ran out of things to kill.
Corax and Vulkan didn't cry when they lost their whole legions.

As a matter of fact, the only time I could see crying be non sissy is when they do the final confrontation between Sang. and Horus. Sang. seems like the weeping sort, and it is the epic end to the whole HH series. So if he squirts a few tears I won't hold it against him.


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## Angel of Blood

Sanguinius cried in _Horus Rising_ after losing his men on Murder. Horus himself also cried at one point in _Horus Rising_ or _False Gods_, I think.

As for Vulkan crying or not, you don't know that, he may very well have done, might do in _Vulkan Lives_.


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## DeathJester921

Angron cried on Nuceria after they found the bones of his brother and sister gladiators. Corax cried on Isstvan V after he used his cloaking ability to sneak back to the site of the drop site massacre.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Zooey72 said:


> Was looking for when they would release this to the masses and got to reading this post. Sorry COTE, he cried when he saw Argel Tal after he sent him into the eye. I can't see Astartes crying, much less a Primarch. That secured his title of "Sissy" in my book.
> 
> Only time you would see Angron cry is if he ran out of things to kill.
> Corax and Vulkan didn't cry when they lost their whole legions.
> 
> As a matter of fact, the only time I could see crying be non sissy is when they do the final confrontation between Sang. and Horus. Sang. seems like the weeping sort, and it is the epic end to the whole HH series. So if he squirts a few tears I won't hold it against him.


The examples provided by _AoB_ and _DeathJester_ prove that your logic is, well, a bit ridiculous. :wink:


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## gothik

at the end of the day, the astartes are like sons to thier respective Primarchs, so they might well shed a tear or two, they are not stone, personally i think Lorgar was a mystery waiting to be opened and ADB did a great job with him, showed there was more to Lorgar than people first thought in First Heretic. He nutted up, grew a massive pair and followed what he believed in, and believes history will vindicate him...which in a way i suppose it did.


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## Lux

rafunparked said:


> I dont have my copy of Aurelian with me but everyone seems to forget when horus sends all his brothers away to talk to lorgar alone magnus tells him it takes alot of energy to have the psychic conference from across the galaxy. So the fact that lorgar was able to I guess you could say nip at magnus is simple. Its not hard to knock down a guy whos running a marathon when you haven't done anything yourself. And he didnt "restrain" horus he just kind of checked him and showed him now is not a good time to play his diplomatic games. After all thats what horus was chosen for in the first place.


It is stated pretty plainly, he telekentically restrained Horus from moving. It does not become more simple then that, he with his powers was able to effortlessly restrain Horus to the point where Horus could do nothing but listen to Lorgar speak.

Also In the Betrayer Book lorgar demonstrates power beyond anything the other primarchs have displayed in direct combat. 

1. With Telekensis he was tunneling his way through potentially hundreds of miles of concrete and fallen city debris at rapid speeds.

2. When assaulted by an Ultramarine gunship, he effortlessly raised his hands in a claw like shape and tore at the air, the ships engines were ripped out of it instantly. He ripped at the air again with his hands and the gunship explode and was pulled to the ground.

3. A Titan was approaching upon him, he lifted and propelled a fallen building (debris of it) at such rapid speeds that it left visible trails of displaced inertia in the air behind it as well as parting all dust and debris in its way. It hit the titan, destroyed its cockpit, and knocked it over.

4. A different titan got the drop on Lorgar when he was tunneling into the earth, It charged up its Plasma Cannon ( a mini sun) and fired it point blank at Lorgar into the tunnel. Lorgar raised his hand and shielded not only himself from the blast, but also a 5 foot raidus all around him.

5. Multiple squads of Ultramarine astartes assaulted Lorgar, he effortlessly nullified there bolter fire and weapons from damaging him. He then proceeded to instantly kill entire squads simultaneously by crushing them with telekensis, or flinging them so fast they would flatten upon impact into the walls.

6. Lorgar suffered horrific burns to his body from a second Plasma Cannon shot at point blank after fully shielding the first one. Through prayer and meditation he fully healed his entire body, which prior to healing his skin and face were melted beyond recognition.

Lorgar's psyker powers are beyond anything shown so far by the other primarchs in combat, including Magnus.

It seems Magnus specializes more in conjuring up warp energy (IE lightening), while Lorgar applies in directly with telekenisis and force fields.


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## Angel of Blood

Lorgar is still not on the scale of Magnus by any means. Don't go forgetting what happens when you try and kill Magnus with a Titan. This applies to many of his other power displays too, but I'd be damn certain that the healing of his plasma cannon wounds, were less about his powers and meditation, and more the Chaos Gods themselves giving him a hand. 

Undoubtedly powerful. But Magnus he is not.


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## gothik

I agree with AOB Lorgar had aid from the Dark Gods who in turn released his latent powers. He may well look more like his father than his brothers, but when it comes to psyker abilities there is no Primarch stronger than Magnus, he was slated to be sitting on the golden throne as his destiny i believe.
Lorgar has only just realised his psyker powers potential imho and at that moment is like a youngster with new toys, whereas Magnus has had a lot longer to hone his abilities, he is second in power to the Emperor and at the moment Lorgar does not come even that close.


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## Lux

Another point to add, when Lorgar was displaying to Angron the power of his "magic", he spoke a single word of the warp and it exploded half the library they were in. In addition to this it also violently threw angron/Tal/Khorne all the way down the entire hallway, of which Angron was then stunned before being able to get back up.

A single word...imagine if he spoke a sentence


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## Malus Darkblade

Abnett covers this form of Warp speech. I forget what he called it in his Eisenhorn series but IIRC anyone who utters the words with conviction can achieve similar results which to me doesn't sound like it depends on a person's psyker power.


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## gothik

also the changer had Magnus from the beginning, even if it meant making him believe that he had power over them. Magnus was the true prize for that, and Lorgar was the prize when it came to veneration, he was a holy man who needed something to believe in, activating his latent powers and whispering that he was the chosen son, the first son of chaos, that was enough in the end.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> Another point to add, when Lorgar was displaying to Angron the power of his "magic", he spoke a single word of the warp and it exploded half the library they were in. In addition to this it also violently threw angron/Tal/Khorne all the way down the entire hallway, of which Angron was then stunned before being able to get back up.
> 
> A single word...imagine if he spoke a sentence





Malus Darkblade said:


> Abnett covers this form of Warp speech. I forget what he called it in his Eisenhorn series but IIRC anyone who utters the words with conviction can achieve similar results which to me doesn't sound like it depends on a person's psyker power.


Enuncia. As Malus has said, it features heavily in Abnetts Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Bequin series, and even mortals who aren't psykers are able to use it to devestating effect, in fact, even a pariah can use it. Though it can cause a mortal a great deal of pain and fatigue to do so. Point still stands, doesn't really make Lorgar seem any more powerful when put into context.


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## darkreever

Malus Darkblade said:


> Abnett covers this form of Warp speech. I forget what he called it in his Eisenhorn series but IIRC anyone who utters the words with conviction can achieve similar results which to me doesn't sound like it depends on a person's psyker power.


That would be Enuncia, though its encountered in the Ravenor series, not Eisenhorn. Kasper Hawser from _Prospero Burns_ also discovered a word or two.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lux said:


> Another point to add, when Lorgar was displaying to Angron the power of his "magic", he spoke a single word of the warp and it exploded half the library they were in. In addition to this it also violently threw angron/Tal/Khorne all the way down the entire hallway, of which Angron was then stunned before being able to get back up.
> 
> A single word...imagine if he spoke a sentence


We've all read it, so we all know what Lorgar was able to do throughout the book. Again though, it doesn't change the fact that Magnus was a more powerful, and more accomplished psyker than Lorgar.


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## MidnightSun

Lux said:


> Another point to add, when Lorgar was displaying to Angron the power of his "magic", he spoke a single word of the warp and it exploded half the library they were in. In addition to this it also violently threw angron/Tal/Khorne all the way down the entire hallway, of which Angron was then stunned before being able to get back up.
> 
> A single word...imagine if he spoke a sentence


He just got past 'fus'; imagine the carnage he'd have caused if he'd gotten to 'ro dah'.

On a serious note, I don't think that Lorgar is a match for Magnus, and maybe even Russ (as I believe Russ' immunity to various Pyrae attacks and destruction of Kine Shields was his own psychic power whether he liked it or not). He was strong, sure, and certainly accomplished greater feats after/during Aurelian, but I think that's the Chaos Gods backing him rather than his own native power. I'd have to read it again to be sure, but do I remember rightly that he was powerless to Malcador's 'kneel' command on Monarchia?

Midnight


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## darkreever

MidnightSun said:


> but do I remember rightly that he was powerless to Malcador's 'kneel' command on Monarchia?


If memory serves it was the Emperor himself who made Lorgar kneel, Malcador attempted to act as a middleman in lieu of the Emperor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MidnightSun said:


> He just got past 'fus'; imagine the carnage he'd have caused if he'd gotten to 'ro dah'.
> 
> On a serious note, I don't think that Lorgar is a match for Magnus, and maybe even Russ (as I believe Russ' immunity to various Pyrae attacks and destruction of Kine Shields was his own psychic power whether he liked it or not). He was strong, sure, and certainly accomplished greater feats after/during Aurelian, but I think that's the Chaos Gods backing him rather than his own native power. I'd have to read it again to be sure, but do I remember rightly that he was powerless to Malcador's 'kneel' command on Monarchia?
> 
> Midnight


Yeah, that was the Emperor not Malcador. EDIT: _darkreever_ got there first.

But _The First Heretic_ states quite simply that Lorgar had always maintained psychic powers/potential, but had just feared and repressed it. So his powers didn't just manifest after dedicating himself to Chaos.


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## MidnightSun

Fair enough, my mistake then. Was Malcador really involved in that confrontation at all then? I remember him using his psychic power to shout VERY LOUDLY, but apart from that I can't remember.

Midnight


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## Lux

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We've all read it, so we all know what Lorgar was able to do throughout the book. Again though, it doesn't change the fact that Magnus was a more powerful, and more accomplished psyker than Lorgar.



Going purely by feats in the books, I would rank Lorgar higher than Magnus.

If we went by hyperbole than I would say magnus.


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## Malus Darkblade

What did Lorgar do again that was greater than Magnus? Magnus single-handedly destroyed an Eldar titan IIRC. Lorgar defended against a lesser one but only for two attacks.

Also it was stated in A Thousand Sons that Magnus could have wiped out the entire incoming Space Wolves/Imperial fleet en route to Prospero using his powers.

And why did the Emperor envision Magnus on the throne rather than Lorgar?


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## Angel of Blood

Hyperbole? He destroyed an Eldar titan in a single blow. He projected his mind across to the other side of the galaxy and managed to breach the dark gods protection around the serpent lodge to commune with Horus. He once again projected himself across the galaxy again and succeeded in punching through the psychic protection and wards of the Emperor himself to enter the throne room. Lorgar himself notes that despite his growing strength, even standing next to the psychic projection of Magnus made his skin itch and teeth on edge. When he got angry enough at Lorgar, he actually started to manifest physically as well as psychically into his presence, again from a staggering distance and inside the Eye for that matter.

Hyperbole. Indeed.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Lux said:


> Going purely by feats in the books, I would rank Lorgar higher than Magnus.
> 
> If we went by hyperbole than I would say magnus.


What do you mean by hyperbole? There's no question that Magnus had actual knowledge of how to bend the the warp to his will, like calling himself into a meeting from across the galaxy or actually breaking the wards on the Emperor's own hidden fortress, where Lorgar was only a willing conduit for being manipulated from the warp. Magnus destroys an Eldar Titan one-on-one in A Thousand Sons, and Lorgar blows up a library, and you think Lorgar is a 'higher' psyker than Magnus? You'll have to forgive me, but I've yet to hear about any psyker accomplishment by Lorgar that's any more impressive than what your garden-variety Alpha psyker could accomplish.


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## Lux

Malus Darkblade said:


> What did Lorgar do again that was greater than Magnus? Magnus single-handedly destroyed an Eldar titan IIRC. Lorgar defended against a lesser one but only for two attacks.
> 
> Also it was stated in A Thousand Sons that Magnus could have wiped out the entire incoming Space Wolves/Imperial fleet en route to Prospero using his powers.
> 
> And why did the Emperor envision Magnus on the throne rather than Lorgar?


Lorgar destroyed a titan in seconds in "betrayer", him shielding himself from two plasma cannon shots at point blank was a different titan.

Additionally he fully healed himself from the wounds later on.

Lorgar's feats are more then Magnus's, as for Magnus stating he could have destroyed the whole fleet in orbit is nothing but talk and not a feat. Magnus was proud and arrogant beyond measure, he was hubristic and truly believed his power was unmatched, however Russ showed him otherwise.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> Additionally he fully healed himself from the wounds later on


You don't even almost think that the gods very likely had an enormous hand in this? 

And you still haven't adressed the outrageously powerful feats Magnus has accomplished that I pointed out. Again, the Emperors own protective wards, _The Emperor_. Magnus quite casually banishes Lorgar without a second thought when he appears in his tower, yet Lorgar still feels completely on edge and notes how powerful Magnus is compared to himself, when he is psychically in his presence.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> You don't even almost think that the gods very likely had an enormous hand in this?
> 
> And you still haven't adressed the outrageously powerful feats Magnus has accomplished that I pointed out. Again, the Emperors own protective wards, _The Emperor_. Magnus quite casually banishes Lorgar without a second thought when he appears in his tower, yet Lorgar still feels completely on edge and notes how powerful Magnus is compared to himself, when he is psychically in his presence.


The wards one is subjective, has it ever occurred to you that the chaos gods broke those wards for him? You know with Magnus being owned by them ever since he made a pact with one of the chaos gods long ago? As in this would greatly benefit the chaos gods by having those wards broken and using Magnus as the deliverer of their power to do it.

You state how likely it is for the chaos gods to have healed Lorgar which is purely your own opinion, and not fact. And yet proclaim it was purely Magnus own power which broke "The Emperor's" wards? Double standard much?

When Magnus was in his tower, he was already in the warp lamenting over his loss at the hands of Russ. Additionally Lorgar's presence there was ethereal to begin with, Magnus didn't banish anyone it was Ingethel that pulled him out of that tower. Lorgar's whole trip into the Eye of Terror was being directly observed by the 4 Chaos gods, they didn't want Lorgar to speak with Magnus, and they made sure of it. 

Yes Lorgar felt on edge with Magnus presence abord the vengeful spirit post Istvaan bombing, but that sure didn't stop Lorgar from banishing Magnus psychic presence from the ship when he had enough of magnus trying to probe his mind.

As I've said Magnus in terms of actual feats in the books is below Lorgar.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lux said:


> Lorgar destroyed a titan in seconds in "betrayer", him shielding himself from two plasma cannon shots at point blank was a different titan.


He destroyed an Imperial Warhound which is nothing compared to a psychically attuned Eldar titan/reaver.



Lux said:


> Additionally he fully healed himself from the wounds later on.
> 
> Lorgar's feats are more then Magnus's, as for Magnus stating he could have destroyed the whole fleet in orbit is nothing but talk and not a feat. Magnus was proud and arrogant beyond measure, he was hubristic and truly believed his power was unmatched, however Russ showed him otherwise.


Magnus's power was unmatched by anyone save the Emperor. The only difference between the two other than the Emperor's infinitely stronger abilities was that Magnus was arrogant and believed until the end that he could control Chaos.


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## Lux

Malus Darkblade said:


> He destroyed an Imperial Warhound which is nothing compared to a psychically attuned Eldar titan/reaver.
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus's power was unmatched by anyone save the Emperor. The only difference between the two other than the Emperor's infinitely stronger abilities was that Magnus was arrogant and believed until the end that he could control Chaos.


Once again purely your opinion. It is stated by thechaos gods thay magnus has been their follower from their beginning andthat they have been grooming him through his desire for power, and unequaled pride. Im going purely by in text feets and once again not hyperbole.

You have very little to objectively measure magnus power when it comes to raw feats, magnus believed he was the greatest of all primarchs in power. He believed he could have destroyed the entire space wolves legion in space. His hubris was beyond insane, when it came time to fight he was rocked by russ in combat.

All those amazing powers he believed he had and the absolute mastery he had over them was revealed to be a lie. He was not as powerful as he believed, nor did he have mastery of the warp which is where his powers come from.

It is plainly stated that his contract with the chaos gods is where his power came from, once they pulled back russ rocked his face.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Lux said:


> You have very little to objectively measure magnus power when it comes to raw feats, magnus believed he was the greatest of all primarchs in power. He believed he could have destroyed the entire space wolves legion in space. His hubris was beyond insane, when it came time to fight he was rocked by russ in combat.


to be fair, he could have destroyed the space wolves legion, even Amon thought so, after all the wolves were in warp space, the combined efforts of Magnus and his legion would have been enough to ensure their destruction, and with the added help of Tzeentch it would have been guaranteed.
In addition, regarding the fight Magnus and Russ had, Russ used those 2 giant wolves, the custodes/space wolves tried to intervene at least twice (that distracted magnus) and the main reason why Russ won was due to the simple fact that he had more battle experience (in addition to the fact he had help.)


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## Malus Darkblade

@L&D: It was implied IIRC that Magnus alone could perform the feat, not with the help of his legion or the Chaos powers. Also I believe the fleet already broke orbit and were minutes away from landing.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> The wards one is subjective, has it ever occurred to you that the chaos gods broke those wards for him? You know with Magnus being owned by them ever since he made a pact with one of the chaos gods long ago? As in this would greatly benefit the chaos gods by having those wards broken and using Magnus as the deliverer of their power to do it.
> 
> You state how likely it is for the chaos gods to have healed Lorgar which is purely your own opinion, and not fact. And yet proclaim it was purely Magnus own power which broke "The Emperor's" wards? Double standard much?


Ok, fair point. But if you're going to say Magnus had help doing so, then how are you certain Lorgar didn't have help from the Gods to heal his wounds.



Lux said:


> When Magnus was in his tower, he was already in the warp lamenting over his loss at the hands of Russ. Additionally Lorgar's presence there was ethereal to begin with, Magnus didn't banish anyone it was Ingethel that pulled him out of that tower. Lorgar's whole trip into the Eye of Terror was being directly observed by the 4 Chaos gods, they didn't want Lorgar to speak with Magnus, and they made sure of it.


Ingethel pulled Lorgar out because it would have seriously hurt him, Ingethel got pretty fucked up by pulling Lorgar out.



Lux said:


> Yes Lorgar felt on edge with Magnus presence abord the vengeful spirit post Istvaan bombing, but that sure didn't stop Lorgar from banishing Magnus psychic presence from the ship when he had enough of magnus trying to probe his mind.


No I'm talking about when Magnus was with Lorgar in _Betrayer_. Again, when he started to become really angry with Lorgar, he actually started to physically manifest. That would take an enormous amount of power to do, to ethereally project is one thing, to do so and then start to shift into real form, seamlessly at that, is immense in terms of power.



Lux said:


> As I've said Magnus in terms of actual feats in the books is below Lorgar.


In your opinion he is. As others have pointed out, Magnus has shown much more powerful ability, but you insist on dismissing it all as the Gods lending him power, more on this below.



Lux said:


> Once again purely your opinion. It is stated by thechaos gods thay magnus has been their follower from their beginning andthat they have been grooming him through his desire for power, and unequaled pride. Im going purely by in text feets and once again not hyperbole.
> 
> All those amazing powers he believed he had and the absolute mastery he had over them was revealed to be a lie. He was not as powerful as he believed, nor did he have mastery of the warp which is where his powers come from.
> 
> It is plainly stated that his contract with the chaos gods is where his power came from, once they pulled back russ rocked his face.


Nowhere does it state that his power came from the gods and was nothing but a lie. It does state that the gods, Tzeentch to be specific, saved his Legion, but it says nothing about all of his power coming from the gods and not really existing. 

There is nothing 'hyperbole' about psychically exploding an Eldar titan dead with a single blow or projecting yourself across space and time. On that, you still haven't addressed Magnus being able to get past the protection of the Gods on Davin. They certainly didn't want Magnus interfering with Horus and did try to stop him, yet he overcame them eventually. 

The other thing that keeps bugging me about your entire argument at the moment, is that you keep on claiming(and it is a claim, not fact as you seem to imply and state), that Magnus has no real power, and that it all came from the gods. Yet.....you don't say the same about Lorgar? Lorgar who only really started to become powerful after joining the gods...do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? Considering how weak Lorgar was before he joined Chaos, he is a much, much stronger candidate for receiving all his power from the gods, even if he was holding himself back before.


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## gothik

Malcador was a powerful psyker in his own right, but even he could not contain all that power from the throne, Magnus was the only primarch capable of containing that after the Emperor that is. Lorgar would not be able to do that, even in his crippled state Magnus is able to project himself from the planet of sorcerers in the warp onto the Lex, Lorgar is nowhere near that psychic power level. 

Everyone here from what i have read have all stated the same, the most powerful psyker amongst the Primarchs was Magnus, Lorgar feared his power and repressed it as AOB i think it was stated, Magnus has never feared what he possessed and he was always cautious in its use, he had warned Lorgar enough times to learn and not rush head on into things, but Lorgar was drunk with the power he had been granted, and until he learns to control what has been unleashed he will never be able to even come up on a par with Magnus.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> Ok, fair point. But if you're going to say Magnus had help doing so, then how are you certain Lorgar didn't have help from the Gods to heal his wounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Ingethel pulled Lorgar out because it would have seriously hurt him, Ingethel got pretty fucked up by pulling Lorgar out.
> 
> 
> 
> No I'm talking about when Magnus was with Lorgar in _Betrayer_. Again, when he started to become really angry with Lorgar, he actually started to physically manifest. That would take an enormous amount of power to do, to ethereally project is one thing, to do so and then start to shift into real form, seamlessly at that, is immense in terms of power.
> 
> 
> 
> In your opinion he is. As others have pointed out, Magnus has shown much more powerful ability, but you insist on dismissing it all as the Gods lending him power, more on this below.
> 
> 
> 
> Nowhere does it state that his power came from the gods and was nothing but a lie. It does state that the gods, Tzeentch to be specific, saved his Legion, but it says nothing about all of his power coming from the gods and not really existing.
> 
> There is nothing 'hyperbole' about psychically exploding an Eldar titan dead with a single blow or projecting yourself across space and time. On that, you still haven't addressed Magnus being able to get past the protection of the Gods on Davin. They certainly didn't want Magnus interfering with Horus and did try to stop him, yet he overcame them eventually.
> 
> The other thing that keeps bugging me about your entire argument at the moment, is that you keep on claiming(and it is a claim, not fact as you seem to imply and state), that Magnus has no real power, and that it all came from the gods. Yet.....you don't say the same about Lorgar? Lorgar who only really started to become powerful after joining the gods...do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? Considering how weak Lorgar was before he joined Chaos, he is a much, much stronger candidate for receiving all his power from the gods, even if he was holding himself back before.


Magnus's power has always stemmed from the chaos gods, it is stated in betrayer that everything Magnus has gone through has been to groom him. That from the very beginning he has been serving the chaos gods, yet his pride and lust for power blinds him to it.

The chaos gods wanted him to attempt to save Horus upon Davin, that event made Magnus aware that Horus was corrupted which then prompted Magnus to try to contact the Emperor. Which gave the Chaos God's an opportunity to use Magnus as their conduit of their power to break the Emperor's wards.

It is clearly stated that from the very beginning Magnus has been owned and has been in a processing of being groomed by the chaos gods to meet their purpose. It states they used his lust for power as the means to groom him and string him along, combined with his arrogance which blinded him to what was happening. 

Magnus could believe he could have destroyed 10 legions in the warp, until he does it it is nothing by talk and not a feat. The Chaos gods would have never allowed the space wolves to be destroyed in space, because the Thousand sons would have survived in full power and not turned to the chaos gods.

Magnus was blind to the fact that a majority of the power that had flowed through him was from the chaos gods, which he thought was his all along. However when the chaos gods pulled it away from him, he was severely lacking in power for he was far less then what he had thought he was.

As for Magnus "manifesting" on the lex at the start of betrayer, it was nothing more then "Lorgar could now feel the heat of Magnus anger". Of which Lorgar then stated, "our meeting is done for now magnus, I have something more important to attend to (saving angron on the planet)" of which he then dismissed magnus and ended the meeting, magnus's image vanished immediately.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> Magnus's power has always stemmed from the chaos gods, it is stated in betrayer that everything Magnus has gone through has been to groom him. That from the very beginning he has been serving the chaos gods, yet his pride and lust for power blinds him to it.
> 
> The chaos gods wanted him to attempt to save Horus upon Davin, that event made Magnus aware that Horus was corrupted which then prompted Magnus to try to contact the Emperor. Which gave the Chaos God's an opportunity to use Magnus as their conduit of their power to break the Emperor's wards.
> 
> It is clearly stated that from the very beginning Magnus has been owned and has been in a processing of being groomed by the chaos gods to meet their purpose. It states they used his lust for power as the means to groom him and string him along, combined with his arrogance which blinded him to what was happening.
> 
> Magnus could believe he could have destroyed 10 legions in the warp, until he does it it is nothing by talk and not a feat. The Chaos gods would have never allowed the space wolves to be destroyed in space, because the Thousand sons would have survived in full power and not turned to the chaos gods.
> 
> Magnus was blind to the fact that a majority of the power that had flowed through him was from the chaos gods, which he thought was his all along. However when the chaos gods pulled it away from him, he was severely lacking in power for he was far less then what he had thought he was.


He was never severely lacking in power. When he finally decided to enter the battle, he kills scores of the Imperial forces without so much as a second thought. He lost to Russ, because Russ is undoubtedly one of the best fighters of the Primarchs and has shown to be highly resistant, seemingly immune in fact, to psychic powers. And even then Magnus was holding his own until Russ managed to catch his eye in a blind lash out stroke. 

As for them wanting Magnus to talk to Horus. That's complete conjecture on your behalf. They couldn't possibly have known Magnus would attempt to go to Terra like he did, though I have no doubt in my mind you will now say 'The gods made him do it/planted the idea in his head' without any shred of evidence or proof to back it up.

It never states Magnus power comes from the gods, yes multiple novels say they've been manipulating him, but none state all his power came from them. He was a pawn certainly, but a naturally powerful one. You find me these direct quotes that state all or the majority of his power came from them. And once again, where do you suppose Lorgar suddenly got these immense powers from? _Betrayer_ heavily hints that the Gods and ritual healed him of his wounds. You still haven't addressed this.




Lux said:


> As for Magnus "manifesting" on the lex at the start of betrayer, it was nothing more then "Lorgar could now feel the heat of Magnus anger". Of which Lorgar then stated, "our meeting is done for now magnus, I have something more important to attend to (saving angron on the planet)" of which he then dismissed magnus and ended the meeting, magnus's image vanished immediately.


_Betrayer_ pg.29 
The sorcerer's skin quivered, beetles writhing beneath it as witch-lightning danced across his coppery flesh. Magnus moved, his body forming from the air itself, shaped out of the poison behind reality's veil. Anger drove him into true incarnation
'That is _enough_, Lorgar.'

That isn't Lorgar feeling the heat, it specifically states that Magnus was starting to manifest physically onto the _Lex_.

And tell me where it says Lorgar banishes Magnus. I'm looking at it right now. 

pg.65
The sorcerer shook his head in dismissal. 'Tell me what demands your presence on the surface.'
Lorgar sealed his tri-horned helm in place, speaking before leaving the chamber.
'Angron is in trouble.'

And that's it. That's the last time he speaks to Magnus in _Betrayer_. He doesn't dismiss him or banish him at all.


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> He was never severely lacking in power. When he finally decided to enter the battle, he kills scores of the Imperial forces without so much as a second thought. He lost to Russ, because Russ is undoubtedly one of the best fighters of the Primarchs and has shown to be highly resistant, seemingly immune in fact, to psychic powers. And even then Magnus was holding his own until Russ managed to catch his eye in a blind lash out stroke.
> 
> As for them wanting Magnus to talk to Horus. That's complete conjecture on your behalf. They couldn't possibly have known Magnus would attempt to go to Terra like he did, though I have no doubt in my mind you will now say 'The gods made him do it/planted the idea in his head' without any shred of evidence or proof to back it up.
> 
> It never states Magnus power comes from the gods, yes multiple novels say they've been manipulating him, but none state all his power came from them. He was a pawn certainly, but a naturally powerful one. You find me these direct quotes that state all or the majority of his power came from them. And once again, where do you suppose Lorgar suddenly got these immense powers from? _Betrayer_ heavily hints that the Gods and ritual healed him of his wounds. You still haven't addressed this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Betrayer_ pg.29
> The sorcerer's skin quivered, beetles writhing beneath it as witch-lightning danced across his coppery flesh. Magnus moved, his body forming from the air itself, shaped out of the poison behind reality's veil. Anger drove him into true incarnation
> 'That is _enough_, Lorgar.'
> 
> That isn't Lorgar feeling the heat, it specifically states that Magnus was starting to manifest physically onto the _Lex_.
> 
> And tell me where it says Lorgar banishes Magnus. I'm looking at it right now.
> 
> pg.65
> The sorcerer shook his head in dismissal. 'Tell me what demands your presence on the surface.'
> Lorgar sealed his tri-horned helm in place, speaking before leaving the chamber.
> 'Angron is in trouble.'
> 
> And that's it. That's the last time he speaks to Magnus in _Betrayer_. He doesn't dismiss him or banish him at all.


When Magnus decided to use sorcery to contact the Emperor he found the imperial webway leading to earth, however he couldnt breach its seals...it specifically says he was unable to breach its seals. But then an anonymous entity within the Warp whispered sibilantly to him, offering to provide the Primarch with additional power in order to breach the Webway. Magnus seized upon the entity's offer, breaching the barrier and bursting into the Emperor's throne room.

Like the above example, Magnus has been accepting offers of power from many entities in the warp, he was ignorant who and what they truly were.

So Yes I do stand behind the position that the gods planned for Magnus to contact the Emperor.


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## Angel of Blood

In fact, I'll just keep this simple to try and get this answer from you, nothing else involved.

Where do you suppose Lorgar got all his power from? Do you not think it a tad convenient that his power levels sky rocketed after he joined forces with Chaos?


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## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> In fact, I'll just keep this simple to try and get this answer from you, nothing else involved.
> 
> Where do you suppose Lorgar got all his power from? Do you not think it a tad convenient that his power levels sky rocketed after he joined forces with Chaos?


Lorgar's power was that of his faith, Magnus's power was mostly that of the chaos god's power.

Once again in multiple books it states that Lorgar did not seek Chaos for power, or any other sort of gain but that he alone out of all the primarchs sought chaos out of true faith and that is the fire that burns within him.

Magnus on the other hand they described as seeking chaos for power, and lust of lit. Once again as in my prior post, Magnus accepted multiple offers of power.


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## theurge33

Wouldn't you think Magnus received all his psychic power from the Emperor and that is why he is the strongest psyker? Lorgar states multiple times in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerful primarch, let alone psyker and that his post Lorgar's "upgrade" from Chaos. I highly doubt any other primarch would have even had the chance to break the Emp's seals, even the chaos gods couldn't. In my mind, it took the most powerful psyker ( gifted by big E) AND the power of the gods to break that seal.


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## Lux

theurge33 said:


> Wouldn't you think Magnus received all his psychic power from the Emperor and that is why he is the strongest psyker? Lorgar states multiple times in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerful primarch, let alone psyker and that his post Lorgar's "upgrade" from Chaos. I highly doubt any other primarch would have even had the chance to break the Emp's seals, even the chaos gods couldn't. In my mind, it took the most powerful psyker ( gifted by big E) AND the power of the gods to break that seal.


Magnus was unable to breach the webway seals in any form or way, it was not until a mysterious warp entity offered magnus its own power to use that Magnus accepted, and breached it.

Magnus was the physically anchored conduit that the chaos gods required in order to funnel their powers through to breach the webway, they didn't need Magnus's powers, as a majority of the power Magnus used was already the chaos gods' power.


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## DeathJester921

theurge, he did receive his powers from the Emperor. Aside from the one instance on accepting help in order to break into the webway, there is nothing else to suggest that Magnus grew to be as powerful as he was at the time by accepting help at every turn because he was greedy for more power. The only other dealing he had was when he made the deal to save his legion. That was when he became a pawn of chaos, sure, but no where does it mention that he also bargained for more power. He didn't get his powers from Chaos at all. He always had such power, even from the time his pod landed on Prospero. It is what the Emperor intended.

Lorgar was a latent psychic. He feared his power, but at the Dropsite Massacre he allowed it to come to the fore. And still he got beaten by Corax and almost killed. His power stems from the worship of Chaos. You can say it is his faith, which in a sense, I suppose is right. But his worship of Chaos, his orchestrating the events that started the Heresy, was most definitely rewarded by the acquisition of more power, whether Lorgar asked for it or not. Faith ---> Worship ---> Rewards (i.e. more power/ knowledge, etc.). Its all related. Er go, Lorgars power came from Chaos.


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## theurge33

DeathJester921 said:


> theurge, he did receive his powers from the Emperor. Aside from the one instance on accepting help in order to break into the webway, there is nothing else to suggest that Magnus grew to be as powerful as he was at the time by accepting help at every turn because he was greedy for more power. The only other dealing he had was when he made the deal to save his legion. That was when he became a pawn of chaos, sure, but no where does it mention that he also bargained for more power. He didn't get his powers from Chaos at all. He always had such power, even from the time his pod landed on Prospero. It is what the Emperor intended.
> 
> Lorgar was a latent psychic. He feared his power, but at the Dropsite Massacre he allowed it to come to the fore. And still he got beaten by Corax and almost killed. His power stems from the worship of Chaos. You can say it is his faith, which in a sense, I suppose is right. But his worship of Chaos, his orchestrating the events that started the Heresy, was most definitely rewarded by the acquisition of more power, whether Lorgar asked for it or not. Faith ---> Worship ---> Rewards (i.e. more power/ knowledge, etc.). Its all related. Er go, Lorgars power came from Chaos.


I know, this is what I was suggesting. He received his powers from the Emporer and was always that strong, not that chaos bolsterd him to make him that strong. I sway to the side that Magnus was stronger that Lorgar even after chaos and was just merely stating why.


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## DeathJester921

Sorry theurge, the last half of that post was directed towards Lux. Probably should have made that clear. Anyway, I aimed for the first half of the post to back up your point. Should have made that clear too. My bad


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## gothik

getting to think it doesnt matter how many of us point out that Lorgar is not the most powerful of Psyker of the Primarchs, and that accolade belongs to Magnus, Lux is not going to listen to what is being "said"


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## Angel of Blood

gothik said:


> getting to think it doesnt matter how many of us point out that Lorgar is not the most powerful of Psyker of the Primarchs, and that accolade belongs to Magnus, Lux is not going to listen to what is being "said"


I know, it gets pretty tiresome. Said this to Malus, as to why we bother arguing and he came up with the rather good point that, if any newer members or new to fluff members are looking at these Lux posts. Then they will hopefully see our responses and realise what's actually correct and established fact, and not another Lux theory.


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## gothik

Angel of Blood said:


> I know, it gets pretty tiresome. Said this to Malus, as to why we bother arguing and he came up with the rather good point that, if any newer members or new to fluff members are looking at these Lux posts. Then they will hopefully see our responses and realise what's actually correct and established fact, and not another Lux theory.


he has his "ahem" Theories but i feel for those who are new to the hobby, seeing this they might at first think that Lorgar is prime prince for the psyker mob. Its sad really that if he actually wrote a thread which was not deliberatly forcing his somewhat outrageous theories on people, knowing that with your good self, CoTE, Baron, Vaz and everyone else who have been into the 40k side a long time will counteract any of his arguements with established fact, he might actually be able to buld a constructive arguement.

Now if Lux you had said "Could Lorgar one day be a powerful Psyker Primarch" that might have got a different response, with the aid of the gods boosting his latent powers, yes he might well have been up there, but again its tempered against those of Magnus and even Sang to some degree....ah well heres to the next barmy my arguement is correct post...i am sure it will occur at some point.......


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## zerachiel76

To try to divert the thread away from the Lorgar Vs Magnus debate, is it written or hinted anywhere who the 2nd most powerful Primarch was psychically, or even the weakest?

For the weakest psychically I'd guess Angron after the nails and we don't have any idea (to my knowledge) how strong a psyker he was prior to the nails.

If there isn't any info I would think it's difficult to guess as there were so many different psychic powers that were manifested and certain Primarchs seem to have different ones.


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## emporershand89

I feel Magnus would be the most venerable, and therefore the most Powerful. But after reading up on the Fluff just now I would agree Lux that Lugar has some terrifying power. He's like that Emo kid in high school who one days saves someone's life because he is a good observer.

However what of the Sensei? the supposed descendants of the Emperor? Would they not be in contention with the Primarchs for power?


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## gothik

i would have said Sang myself


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## Lux

zerachiel76 said:


> To try to divert the thread away from the Lorgar Vs Magnus debate, is it written or hinted anywhere who the 2nd most powerful Primarch was psychically, or even the weakest?
> 
> For the weakest psychically I'd guess Angron after the nails and we don't have any idea (to my knowledge) how strong a psyker he was prior to the nails.
> 
> If there isn't any info I would think it's difficult to guess as there were so many different psychic powers that were manifested and certain Primarchs seem to have different ones.


I really do wonder what psychic gifts Angron had, or still did have but were repressed beyond use post of the nails implantation.

One effect for sure, or maybe just it was his innate ability was that he saw through the psychic sheen of the emperor and primarchs. Thus he was not influenced by Horus's "Charisma" or the Emperor's "golden light".


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## MuSigma

*lorgar v magnus*

Is Magnus or L orgar the most powerful psyker. well they are 2 very different types, in the language of dungeons and dragons or normal warhammer magnus is a wizard and lorgar is a priest. Magnus is a miracle of human and super human technology science and warp craft and commands the power of the warp though will power and intellect and all that has been said of him is true, a titan of pure power. Lorgar is a miracle of chaos, a poet philosopher who loves and worships the warp and it will do almost any thing for him that he asks. The attack on ultramar centered on calth, as he said the guilliman directly was well beyond and revenge on the ultramarines and guilliman thought. It was burning of dozens of highly populated planets and the sacrificing of billions and billions of lives and the weaving of the pain into a song of the warp, this just to save save agrons life and bring him to ascension. Lorgar is miracle of chaos because no living being in the galaxy can do anything remotley as terryfying or as power without dying or being destroyed. Lorgar doesnt quite control the warp like magnus but he can summon vaster amounts of warp power by sacrifycing enough souls and harvesting their pain. Without a source of warp energy from sacrifice, magnus is by far more powerful a psyker, but give lorgar a billion screaming souls to play with and there nothing he couldn't achieve.
There you go, that should clear it up.


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## Angel of Blood

But we are still seeing Magnus in his, not quite sure whose side he's on, phase, not even believing in the gods. Imagine the power Magnus will command once we see him eventually accept and embrace chaos. Lorgar won't even hold a candle to him.


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## Deadeye776

Lorgar alluded many times in Betrayer that Magnus was on another level when it came to not only vision in the warp but also being closer to the Emperor in aspect and power than he.


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## gothik

i think that Magnus was supposed to sit on the golden throne wasn't he? We know what happened to poor Malcador after he sat on it so Magnus would have been the only option, only Magnus would have been able to channel that much energy and Lorgar i suspect would have suffered the same fate as Malcador


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