# Lost Primarchs



## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

i have always ben intrigued by the lost primarchs. there were 20 created, and only 18 found. also, according to current fluff, the legions were created from the primarchs genetic record, one for each primarch. why didnt the lost primarchs get legions?


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, I think the records say that all 20 primarchs were found, and 20 legions were created and participated in the Great Crusade. However, 2 of them were deleted from all record before the Horus Heresy.

I believe that there is one of the HH novels says that there are statues of every primarch on Terra, but 2 of them were taken down in shame or something.

Let your imagination run wild, I think that the missing were rivals and destroyed each other. Perhaps doing the unthinkable in order to gain the upper hand (allying with xenos, chaos, or something even more unthinkable since heretic legions are still on record)


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

that could be it. what they would have to do to get themselves exed completely would have to be pretty intense.


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## Necoho (Jun 17, 2008)

I think one went to Chaos while the other tried to destroy the traitor one. Probably blew each other up doing it.


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## homestar (Dec 1, 2007)

I like to think they tried to overthrow the emperor and got damned close!


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## Hashulaman (Apr 9, 2008)

I would love to know who had the power to delete this record of their existanc, i mean the traitor legions are still documented. What did these legions have to do to get all trace of them deleted?


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

most senior to delete records is...








the *emperor* k:

These records were deleted before HH, so the emperor or his chancellor
(at his command) will be the responsible persons.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Perhaps one turned traitor/went rogue, nae necessarily to Chaos... the other may be like the Scorpion Clan in L5R, and became the Emperor's secret hand (accepting shame in order to serve the Empire).
It makes sense, especially in light of the Legion of the Damned... anyone know that one's Primarch? Or the Black Dragons?


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

the legion of the damned were originally the flame falcons, so probably sanguinius or corax. the black dragons im not sure about...


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## Maggard (May 20, 2008)

the legion of the damned, as hurt-wm said, aren't an actual legion, as far as i remmeber they have something wrong with their geneseed which is why they distance themselves. or something. 

I can't see the 2 missiing primarchs having turned traitor since everyones like "amagad" when horus does it, and the Astartes find it impossible to comprehend marines turning against teh Emperor and their battle brothers. 

I reckon it was either some huge geneseed flaw in teh primarchs and their legions creating something terrible down the line and the Emperor expunged the record of them so as not to be reminded of a great failure or perhaps one or both of them just went mad and took his legion out beyond the halo-stars and in his grief the Emperor and his sons cast down the reminders of them.

that's jsut what i think's most likely, i love hearing the conflicting theories about these guys


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

The Legion of the Damned were mostly like a Chapter called the Fire Hawks. Not the "Flame Falcons". They were lost in the warp for 20 years and emerged supposedly The Legion of the Damned." 

The Fire Hawks Hawks were part of the "Cursed 21st" founding of Chapters.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

The Flame Falcons exhibited a curious manifestation of paranormal talent. At the peak of a battle at one point, the entire Chapter burst into flames, that burned their enemies but didn't hurt them. The Inquisition didn't take kindly to this and declared them _excommunate traitoris_ shortly thereafter. They've been running like hell ever since. The Legion of the Damned is supposedly the ghostly remnants of the long-gone Fire Hawks. Not the Flame Falcons.

As to the missing Primarchs, in _Horus Rising_ (I think it's HR...) Horus cracks one of the incubation capsules of XI, which to my knowledge is the first of the two primarchs. 

In Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it says that "Seven legions sided with Horus."

Which would make eight, in total. Which means that there were twelve Loyalist legions at the time of the Heresy. Or ten, if the two Missing legions were destroyed.

My own personal opinion is that they are gone, as an expeditionary fleet into another galaxy, so at the start of 6th Edition when the Imperium falls, The Mechanicus will have somewhere to cart the Emperor.

-Dirge


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Interesting how no-one every to my knowledge has suggested that when the Primarches were scattered not all survived where they landed. The primarch-less legions would feel inferior, and be absorbed into others, are still on a search for him, or became mere chapters with very little influence. Are any pre-heresy chapters who weren't legions existing?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

that would work but the main fluff still says that all 20 primarchs were found and led their legions in the great crusade. i am more privy to the fact that maybe they were sent to another galaxy somehow to start a safe zone for humanity in case the imperium fails. that would explain why there are no records of them. if any alien race were to figure that out who knows what would happen.


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## Maggard (May 20, 2008)

cept in HH (False Gods i believe) Horus's reaction to the chamber container a now missing primarch was that of grief, as if the guy was lost rather than sent and since Horus was the first primarch found odds are he'd have known if the Emperor was planning anything like an expedition into the gulf


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

yeah, its pretty cool stuff... btw, ive been hearing rumors that the new 5th ed. fluff will hhave something about some of the primarchs returning (squeal like a girl)!


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## cool_conoly (Mar 29, 2008)

Simple: They and their entire legions were wiped out. Whether it be through warp travel of through war. The emperor couldnt possibly have all his 200,000 Astartes thinking that their leaders, and their legions could actually be destroyed. Think about it Primarchs were like Gods and if gods can die the men would lose heart. Like when Horus is injured, His men cant understand it, cannot beleive their primarch could actually die, let alone an entire legion along with him.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

It's simple. Those legions were stricken down by His power so you may have lots of room to create fluff for your chapter.


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

this from wikipedia:
"The Fire hawks were founded as part of the cursed 21st Founding, but en route to pacify a planet they became trapped in the Warp. They were stuck there for nearly twenty years, and in the warp they were subjected to a plague that caused them hideous suffering. When they finally escaped from the warp the Chapter had been devastated. Most of them were gone and the survivors were no more than animated corpses, their flesh was gray and decaying and the suffering they endured had left them near insane and longing for release from the pain. However, they were still loyal servants of the Imperium and as such they were determined to give up what semblance of life they possessed for the Emperor. They abolished all ranks, as they were all equal in death. They decorated their armour with symbols of cheerlessly grinning skulls and souls writhing in the flames of purgatory. They no longer considered themselves Fire Hawks; they were now simply the Legion of the Damned. Obsessed with their fate, they do not fear death; indeed, they seek little else."

so they are not the flame falcons. the flame falcons were the ones who burst into flame, and who were subsequently purged by the inquisition.

and if the legions had been wiped out, there still would have been record of them. i mean, corax and vulkans legions were almost completely destroyed at istvaan but they are still recorded.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

yea but still some marines survived along with corax and vulkan. who really knows why the info on these two legions were deleted. maybe they did something to anger the emperor and he drew them back out of the crusade to shame them and eventually all info on them was lost?


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

perhaps they were both deliberately erased from memory to allow them to operate in secret against the foes of the emporer, and without reinforcements they died out or are still keeping to themselves until the emperor himself calls for them


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## Alaric (Jun 10, 2008)

theres always everyones favorite that when horus punched the containment tub for the primarchs energy that it leaked and was lost because he did punch primarch number XI tube.


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## Grand Master Belial (Jun 4, 2008)

My idea is that during the crusade they came upon a world that at first accepted them but then betrayed them after becoming compliant. The act of betrayal was a coordinated effort that killed the Primarchs and destroyed the will of the Astartes under their command. 

The Emperor sensing the loss of his sons had them struck from the records so that the shame would not spread to the other legions.

It's either that or the Primarch suffered the humiliation of tripping on a root leading a charge and the sight of a God covered in mud turned the Legion in Laughing Stocks.


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

always possible, damn obstacles always getting in the demi-gods way! i think that its kind of strange that any none of the HH books, almost nothing is said of them.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Hashulaman said:


> I would love to know who had the power to delete this record of their existanc, *i mean the traitor legions are still documented. What did these legions have to do to get all trace of them deleted?*


This is all I want to know about. They could not have simply been traitor legions, it was to be bigger than that. I don't care who they were or what their legions were like, I just want to know why they were deleted.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

if you guys have read legion then keep reading this post if not STOP! ok in legion john grammaticus hints to the fact that the emperor IS really on a quest for godhood and is really a bloodthirsty warmonger. can we agree on that? ok maybe these two primarchs saw past his HOLY mask that he always wore and were going to expose him for who he really was. there wouldnt be a heresy it would be the emperor getting wacked off by ALL his sons. so he got rid of any trace of them and their legions to cover his arse. this actually sounds pretty plausable if you think about it. i mean john grammaticus hints that the emperor is something more...something darker than he really is you know? so maybe the other two primarchs saw it and were going to expose him.


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

:no: The missing legions were mentioned to be founded already.
Other Space marines would have known the marines of this legions.
Remember: all legions were founded before getting reunited with their
Primarchs. :grin:

The alphamarines book"legion" is all about deception and handling of
information.You can't take a john grammaticus thoughts as confirmed
imperial history. His cabal leaders used eldar-based sorcery to look into 
a possible future,doesn't surprise me if that future is a lie. :wink:


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

The whole idea that these two legions betrayed anybody isn't a plausible idea because just look at all the traitorous legions (as was said). Nor would the idea of these two legions rising up the emperor to expose him be plausible, because again, even though records were stricken, you'd have 18 other legions going wtf? I think the idea of the two legions having a sever gene-flaw is a more plausible idea because that would be something every other legion could get behind to erase two legions from record as this was in the whole Great Crusade so the idea of being pure was in the air. Remember the interex in Horus Rising? They all felt uneasy about the interex having forged this alliance with an alien race. Just proof of how Humanity needed to remain pure. 

If either of these two legions had severe gene flaws, I can see the emperor banishing/killing off the two legions and erasing them as failures that tainted the Astartes, which were looked to be the perfect image of what the human race was to become.


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## Pariah (Jul 3, 2008)

Or maybe they were too perfect and The Emperor did not like the outcome. He was Jealous of the fact they were Eldar!!


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Pariah said:


> Or maybe they were too perfect and The Emperor did not like the outcome. He was Jealous of the fact they were Eldar!!


lol, as much as an eldar player might like that idea, weren't the eldar around before the primarchs were even made?


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## Pariah (Jul 3, 2008)

That is what I meant, the ideal/perfect creations of the Emperor from the Gene-seed, infact turn out to be his enemy.


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

the eldar are too piddly and weak they are very far from perfect


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I think the idea that the emperor deliberately hid them from the other primarch is a likely possibilty. The primarch where slowly found throughout the great crusade, alpahrius and omegon being the last and of course omegon was kept as a secret!


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## DarkBadger (Jun 4, 2008)

Maybe the emperor knew the tyranids were coming and sent one to destroy their galaxy, only they failed horribly, and were erased out of shame.

The other, its possible that if rogue trader still holds any truth, then one could turn invisible, if so, and the emperor was a bloodthirsty warmonger desperate to become a god, maybe this primarch found out the truth, the emperor argued with him and wiped out the primarch and his legion as traitors, and no one ever spoke of them again out of fear.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Or maybe they were never found during the crusade and their legions integrated into other legions :shok:


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I probably have the most closest answer to the missing primarchs!!!!!

K listen!!


one of them is actually Sigmar from the warhammer world, the warhammer world is in the 40k universe. He fell to the warhammer world like a metoer like his brothers and Sigmar lived for 200 years without machines and he had super human powers. ???
Sigmar left the empire and wandered off (meeting the emperor), somehow Sigmar didnt survive and his legion was turned into the Emperors bodygurad army.. 


Also rumour that the second missing primarch was fighting the Necron Army of the Scorpion (Scorpion could be true or not) and he used his ships as bombs and he created the mealstorm (he took the army down)


NOT SURE IF ANY OF THESE STORIES ARE TRUE BUT COULD BE GOOD AND TRUE


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

also in the "False God" book of the HH book, Horus is having a dream and he is in the Emperors lab and he punches the tank of the missing primarch (of the 14th legion?) and he deformed the primarch.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

In the early days of the crusade the majority of the Imperium were ignorant of chaos. Maybe the 2nd and 11th legion turned to chaos and turned on the Emperor, which at the start of the crusade would've been devastating so the Emperor deleted their records. I mean when Horus and the others turned, they did it in secret and then vioently and suddenly attacked Terra, there was no denying chaos at that point and then the Emperor was crippled beyond help. And now that chaos is in the open, how many people are corrupted.....new chaos marine chapters, fallen imperial guard and run of the mill civilian heretics, more all the time. He tried to keep chaos a secret so humanity would be ignorant of the chaos gods and therefore less susceptable to their powers. Well that's my thoughts on the matter, i can't wait to hear other varying ideas.


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

Thought just occurred to me today, what if the two missing primarchs weren't scattered?

Don't know exactly how Horus's dream goes in the book as I haven't read it, but it could be just a dream or vision given to him by the Chaos gods.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Everyone is talking about how in the books Horus beat on the 11th container and felt the greatness that would never be and blah blah...honestly it was just a vision, it wasnt real cos as we all know the 20 primarchs and legions were found and brought together respectively during the great crusade. Chaos gave him a vision to sway him to their cause, it wasnt real, wasnt meant to be.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

It's also worth noting that in the vision he saw the God-Emperor so if it were real then he could have stopped the Horus Heresy before it began.


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## weasly (Jun 18, 2008)

There used to be a rumoured legion called the Rainbow Warriors but I'm not sure. One could have been the Adeptus Custodes legion but their primarch was found corrupted(?)


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Rainbow Warriors are a space marine chapter, you should be used to GW having unexplained stuff. the most you'll find on the 2 missing legions is unofficial fluff


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

With this much interest in it, they'll have to bring out official fluff on at least one of the two deleted legions, rather from their own minds or taken from a gamer who made the fluff flawless and Believable.


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## sprldancer (Jul 11, 2008)

they answered it indirectly in the heresy novels. Horus kills one when he goes back in time and speaks to the emperor and the last one is omegron alpharius' twin.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

No no no....he didnt go back in time and kill one that was make believe, a vision. It didnt really happen. The lost primarchs are out there somewhere playing Warhammer until they're needed.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

What i heard was that the Emp found them but one was mutated and the other was possesed by chaos and he killed them both:good:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

sprldancer said:


> they answered it indirectly in the heresy novels. Horus kills one when he goes back in time and speaks to the emperor and the last one is omegron alpharius' twin.


:nono:

Omegon is NOT one of the missing Primarchs. 

If he were the Emperor would have known about him, as he would of created him. 

If he were, he would also have his own legion, created in his own image.

In the book 'legion' Alpharius Omegon is described as being "One Soul in Two bodies".

Here is a link which may help explain: Linky

-----

And also Horus did NOT kill one. He did NOT go back in time. He had a vision.


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## Cpt. Loken (Sep 7, 2008)

maybe one of the lost primarch was not so much of the fighting kind and is one of the highlords of terra or had the same psychic compasity as the Emperor and is in stasis till the emperor is dead and when he is dead this lost primarch will take his place or some thing like that and the and the other was the twin of the primarch of the Alpha legion


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

GW didnt make them so that they could pull them out of their asses when there about to go bankrupt and charge 100$/ model and all the fanboys would buy it.

*cynicism*


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cpt. Loken said:


> and the other was the twin of the primarch of the Alpha legion


:nono:

Please read my above post!! Omegon is certainly NOT one of the lost primarchs!!

The simple truth is that GW wanted to give players more freedom to create their own fluff..


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Cpt. Loken said:


> maybe one of the lost primarch was not so much of the fighting kind and is one of the highlords of terra or had the same psychic compasity as the Emperor and is in stasis till the emperor is dead and when he is dead this lost primarch will take his place or some thing like that and the and the other was the twin of the primarch of the Alpha legion


That is very unlikely because for a psyker they have Magnus who is argueably as power a psyker as the Emperor anyway. And if your theory was correct the Emperor would have put that Primarch on the Golden Throne instead of Macador, andwhy would it be in stasis when it can live supposedly forever putting him in stasis would not be neccassary. And the other is not Omegon because he is the Primarch of the Alpha Legion not one the Primarch of one of the lost legions.



Captain Stillios said:


> What i heard was that the Emp found them but one was mutated and the other was possesed by chaos and he killed them both:good:


That is a rumour, but to be honest their are too many rumours about them to pay any heed to it. There is no evidence to support such a rumour, it is just people saying 'well I suppose this could have happened'. To me it is likely that they are being saved for a big plot twist where one of the Primarchs comes back. However if that is not the case I will go for they are not found or died as a baby so they were never part of the Imperium.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Well the rumour of one lost legion able to turn "invisible" might just be true and explain why they got "lost". in first horus heresy book horus finds a solar system very similar to ours, it had plannet called "terra" with an "emperor" in it and they were defending with invisible warriors in power armor with powerful weapons that could kill a marine of horus legion in 1 shot - sounds like another legion to me! They were wiped out, the "emperor" probably was their primarch, but then comes the question of how did all that happen, maybe that primarch decided to ignore emperor when he was found and just camped that solar system declaring himself the ruler of it, maybe they didnt keep any connection with rest of imperium and just got lost when horus wiped them out, no one ever heard of them anymore and it was just deleted, duno. Maybe he was never found by emperor, so he just used advanced tech he found to make legion-like force and got killed sooner than his marines could join him, so the marines got split between other legions or smth like that. Have no idea about the second legion though.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Well the rumour of one lost legion able to turn "invisible" might just be true and explain why they got "lost". in first horus heresy book horus finds a solar system very similar to ours, it had plannet called "terra" with an "emperor" in it and they were defending with invisible warriors in power armor with powerful weapons that could kill a marine of horus legion in 1 shot - sounds like another legion to me! They were wiped out, the "emperor" probably was their primarch, but then comes the question of how did all that happen, maybe that primarch decided to ignore emperor when he was found and just camped that solar system declaring himself the ruler of it, maybe they didnt keep any connection with rest of imperium and just got lost when horus wiped them out, no one ever heard of them anymore and it was just deleted, duno. Maybe he was never found by emperor, so he just used advanced tech he found to make legion-like force and got killed sooner than his marines could join him, so the marines got split between other legions or smth like that. Have no idea about the second legion though.


Nope, those invisible troops were using some ancient technology which enabled them to appear invisible (maybe from an STC?). It wasn't an innate ability of some Primarch. I find the whole invisible primarch theory very very far-fetched, and to-be-honest very silly!

And also if it were a primarch he would have put up much more of a fight. The Luna Wolves slaughtered the wayward humans. As they were humans not astartes. 

Also Where was his Space Marine legion if he were a primarch? If it was a primarch Horus would have recognised him (like he did Alpharius) - And i may be remembering wrong, but wasn't the emperor of the planet in question an old man?

And to my knowledge he was not described as tall, broad or even powerful. Nothing like a primarch.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Well those warriors did kill some wolfs, and the old man was only TRAP, real "emperor" shot a massive psychic blastwave that almost thrown some marine from tower, but then he got attacked or shot by reinforcements, that kind of power Could be a sign of primarch and any primarch would fall against large ods when fighting elite space marines anyway. But yeh, probably those werent space marines guarding him, so maybe he just became emperor of that system and used ancient tech to make modern force, maybe the emperor somehow left him alone or smth.

Also maybe that primarch didnt get accepted because of psychic powers..


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> .
> Also maybe that primarch didnt get accepted because of psychic powers..


Well Magnus the Red was a known Psycher and he was tolerated so I doubt that is the reason. Also in regards to one of the primarchs being destroyed because he was a mutant, Sanguinius was a mutant (wings) and he was not destroyed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

thelastonestanding said:


> Well Magnus the Red was a known Psycher and he was accepted so I doubt that is the reason. Also in regards to one of the primarchs being destroyed because he was a mutant, Sanguinius was a mutant (wings) and he was not destroyed.


Magnus' psychic talents were accepted because they were used for the good of humanity and to devastating effect during the Great Crusade.

However he was shunned by many of his brother Primarchs who wouldn't even field their legions alongside the Thousand Sons. Some even going as far as to declare him a traitor/heretic prior to the Council Of Nikaea. - Leman Russ, Mortarion and Corax i believe distrusted and shunned Magnus the most.

Magnus wasn't really accepted. (at least by the majority of the primarchs)


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

To be honest, I believed the emperor designed Magnus as a backup plan. He knew what his goals and aspirations were so he would have been planning the webway prodject for some time. He also knew he'd need a strong psyker to power his webway prodject when more demanding issues required his attention.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> To be honest, I believed the emperor designed Magnus as a backup plan. He knew what his goals and aspirations were so he would have been planning the webway prodject for some time. He also knew he'd need a strong psyker to power his webway prodject when more demanding issues required his attention.


I dont think so 

Originally the Emperor created Barriers, Wards and Psychic shields which protected the Entrence to the Imperial Webway (similar to that the Eldar use on all their webway gates)

When Magnus the Red warned the Emperor of Horus' betrayal, he accidently shattered these wards forcing the Emperor to take to the Golden Throne to block the Webway Gate from the warp personally. He then intended to sit Magnus the Red on the throne until he could repair the Wards. 

Originally the Emperor would'nt have needed anyone to sit on the Golden Throne as he had wards, barriers and psychic shields in place to block the webway from the warp.

:good:


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

He sustained all the barriers in place by using the golden throne as a conduit. After the accident that destroyed all the barriers he had to use it to keep daemons from flooding the imperial palace

"Since the original webway was built of a psychically resistant material which the humans could not replicate, the Emperor used his powers, via the Golden Throne, to protect the human-built section from the Warp."


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> He sustained all the barriers in place by using the golden throne as a conduit. After the accident that destroyed all the barriers he had to use it to keep daemons from flooding the imperial palace
> 
> "Since the original webway was built of a psychically resistant material which the humans could not replicate, the Emperor used his powers, via the Golden Throne, to protect the human-built section from the Warp."


ok, but do you really think he intended to use Magnus permenantly on the throne? I very much doubt he created a specific Primarch for that reason k:


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

No, but that might have had a significant part in how Magnus turned out. Either way it didn't work out too well for the emperor. :so_happy:


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## tonydrazor (Mar 25, 2009)

Taking into account the Alpha / Legions twin primarchs, this leads to further discrepancies...was the twin considered and additional primarch perchance? Or where they one and the same? 

In saying that it shows that the emporer was capable of some sneaky beaky underhandedness and if something as Major as that went undetected maybe there are other such sleight of hands exist. Keeping two legions off the record and that are in sus-an in stasis that will not be exposed to any of the genetic flaws that tend to emerge with genetic engineering etc.

Also will not have been corrupted or formed their own SOPs etc.

But bearing that in mind they will be Pre-Codex legions but may be fanatically loyal to the emporer.

Or be fed through some Hi-Tec neural link conditioning them and implanting fanatical propoganda + adapting them to tech / tactical development subconciously.

So that they can be re-awakened in a time of great desperation to fight the last fight against Chaos etc?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

tonydrazor said:


> Taking into account the Alpha / Legions twin primarchs, this leads to further discrepancies...was the twin considered and additional primarch perchance? Or where they one and the same?


No Alpharius Omegon is considered one primarch - "One Soul in two bodies"

My theory is that as several other primarchs suffered from mutation whilst being dragged through the warp by the Chaos Gods (Sanguinius gained wings, and Magnus gained a cyclopian eye) - Alpharius suffered similar mutations and was split into 2 bodies, (similar to the way twins develop in the womb), this is supported by "One soul in two bodies" and also is supported by the fact that the Emperor didn't know about Omegon.

:good:


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## Fang127 (Jan 6, 2009)

They could have turned traitor, or they could have been wiped out. The Space Marines were 50% effective 50% morale, so silently losing two traitor legions and nobody knowing about them would be better than making a big deal of the two.

The fact that the Chaos Legions haven't been wiped is a different matter. Horus was too well known to delete. His rebellion was too public to delete - You can't hide half the Space Marines turning traitor and attacking Terra. You can hide the Emperor being injured, because no matter how you spin it he's but one man, but you can't hide the heart of your empire being attacked by 50% of it's previous heroes.

Beyond that, they're too much of a threat to hide. You don't want the future leaders of the Imperium being raised ignorant of Chaos and the Chaos Legions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fang127 said:


> They could have turned traitor, or they could have been wiped out. The Space Marines were 50% effective 50% morale, so silently losing two traitor legions and nobody knowing about them would be better than making a big deal of the two.
> 
> The fact that the Chaos Legions haven't been wiped is a different matter. Horus was too well known to delete. His rebellion was too public to delete - You can't hide half the Space Marines turning traitor and attacking Terra. You can hide the Emperor being injured, because no matter how you spin it he's but one man, but you can't hide the heart of your empire being attacked by 50% of it's previous heroes.
> 
> Beyond that, they're too much of a threat to hide. You don't want the future leaders of the Imperium being raised ignorant of Chaos and the Chaos Legions.


You couldn't have hid it at the time, but in M41, hardly anyone in the Imperium knows of the Horus Heresy.

"The Ancient events of the Horus Heresy have long since passed into myth within the Imperium. The average Imperial citizen is entirely ignorant of the tumultuous events of the Imperium's founding... Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved now by the daemon-hunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself."

(From the latest Chaos Marine Codex)


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## Fang127 (Jan 6, 2009)

But does that not drive the point home all the more? Certain actions were indeed deleted, but the whole of their existance was too great to hide - However, Legions before them that wouldn't have been around so long wouldn't have that luxury, they could be wiped out and time would do the rest.

And as I said, the events may have been hidden over time, but never completely forgotten. The average citizen only knows of the heroic deeds of the Primarchs (Or possibly even less), while the Inquisition knows the truth of the matter - They know what they face. It'd be rather silly to delete all knowledge, as the Imperium is still in danger. They'd be caught with their pants down, basically, and they'd pay with their lives. (Again, you don't want the leaders of humanity being raised ignorant of one of it's most major threats)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay Okay OKAY! I'll save you guys half the suspense....
I AM ONE OF THE PRIMARCHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh man games workshop is gonna be pissed


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Well if your being honest CK I may as well say it as well. I am the Primarch of the XI legion, Tom's Goons. But seriously there are two missing primarchs with two hearts. I know of two people with two hearts, they are hiding in the past and the future, I give you the Doctor and the Master. How can non of you silly people made the connection before?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

They were both eaten by Tyrranids.


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

I have heard that there was a reason why 2 of the legions no longer exsit. Unfortunatley it has nothing to do with the W40K universe but set more in our time.

From hearsay and conjecture of what I have picked up; one of the co-designers of space marines and W40K held the rights to the lost legions (I believe it was spit between them all). GW offered to pay out for the rights to own these last two legions but the designer refused. (speculation was that he was holding out for a bigger payout as W40K was seroiusly taking off). Well to tell a short story, GW got its revenge by stating that you cant use these legions as we will write them out of the W40K universe and the designer got a moral victory by not letting his legions go...

Therefore we have now the current fluff of W40 that two of the legions have failed/destroyed/primarchs was never found and so legion was never formed..expunged by the inquisition etc.

It would be a strange tale, if the legions every turned up again (mainly by the rights getting bought by GW). As I previously stated I got this story from a GW employee who I remember working in my local store when it 1st opened in the late 80's and still works there today. I am pretty sure it is probably true. so sad


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

pez376 said:


> I have heard that there was a reason why 2 of the legions no longer exsit. Unfortunatley it has nothing to do with the W40K universe but set more in our time.
> 
> From hearsay and conjecture of what I have picked up; one of the co-designers of space marines and W40K held the rights to the lost legions (I believe it was spit between them all). GW offered to pay out for the rights to own these last two legions but the designer refused. (speculation was that he was holding out for a bigger payout as W40K was seroiusly taking off). Well to tell a short story, GW got its revenge by stating that you cant use these legions as we will write them out of the W40K universe and the designer got a moral victory by not letting his legions go...
> 
> ...


I think you might be thinking of the Malal issue. Malal was the Chaos God of Anarchy and represented Chaos turning upon itself. 

GW had copyright issues with Malal as i believe Dungeons & Dragons had an entity called malal, so had to withdraw it. not sure though. 

As far as i know it, the 2 lost legions were just a way in which GW gave players freedom to create their own fluff/speculation. 

I may be wrong though


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i dont know. you don't really need two. besides legions... with primarchs. but its probably the reason. I just think its lame. Maybe because ive seen to many kids buy whole armies paint them weirdly (some examples: would be marines painted with gliter paint, christmas marines, Mexican Marines, Underwater marines... omg...) too much to handle really. then they make up child like stories make up some crazy story and abandon it after a month or two. Thats my experience with these random legion options so its take all the fun out of it.


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## Fang127 (Jan 6, 2009)

They made two so two people can play together with homebrew legions. 

However, Chapters completely dissolve the effort. How many chapters are there and how many do we know about? Of the ones we know, how many do we know the founding chapter of?

They're waiting to reveal them. Whether any of us will be alive when they finally do is another issue. <_<


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

The blood ravens chapter has their history completely wiped out and therefor they lost track of what they've done and their heritage and creator. they've lost their primarch, which in other words is one of the lost primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

vacantghost said:


> The blood ravens chapter has their history completely wiped out and therefor they lost track of what they've done and their heritage and creator. they've lost their primarch, which in other words is one of the lost primarchs.


I havnt played DoW2 so i dont know if any more fluff about the Blood Ravens had been revealed but when they said "For the Unknown Primarch" in whatever expansion that was, this doesnt necessarily mean their one of the lost legions or even a chapter founded of one of the lost legions geneseed.

In my opinion in just means they were founded of a Primarchs geneseed and the records of there founding were lost. A lot of theories points at the idea that they were founded from Magnus' geneseed. Or they could just be another chapter among many from Guillimans.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Wasn't it that the creator of Malal had the copyright in his name and when he left GW he took the copyright with him? That is what I have always heard.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zondarian said:


> Wasn't it that the creator of Malal had the copyright in his name and when he left GW he took the copyright with him? That is what I have always heard.


Ive heard that aswell 

Either way GW can't use him anymore :good:


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## primarch-angron (Mar 12, 2009)

could be that they turned at the same time as horus but where more direct in the actions.
They went to Terra first but got destroyed so the God-Emperor deleted there records so that no-one would ever no.
Peace out:victory:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

primarch-angron said:


> could be that they turned at the same time as horus but where more direct in the actions.
> They went to Terra first but got destroyed so the God-Emperor deleted there records so that no-one would ever no.
> Peace out:victory:


How much more direct could you be than the Horus Heresy? 

Fluff states that prior to the siege of terra, the Emperor was working on the Imperial Webway in the Imperial Dungeon, and Malcador the Hero and Rogal Dorn were on Terra, trying to contact the other loyalists to reinforce Terra. 

There was no battle on Terra prior to it being besieged by Horus. :victory: - There was also not a force which could have taken on 2 legions of traitors, not until the White Scars and Blood Angels arrived anyway.

And people know about the Heresy, why would the Emperor want no one to know about these 2 legions if they attacked Terra considering it is known that the the others attacked Terra anyway


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In my opinion in just means they were founded of a Primarchs geneseed and the records of there founding were lost. A lot of theories points at the idea that they were founded from Magnus' geneseed. Or they could just be another chapter among many from Guillimans.


yes I heard this too. Evidence about there being an unusual amount of psychers and "manipulaters of the warp" hint to this. So it sounds about right.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> yes I heard this too. Evidence about there being an unusual amount of psychers and "manipulaters of the warp" hint to this. So it sounds about right.


Indeed and the fact that they venerate knowledge. Sounds like the XV legion to me


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## BrotherNuprin (Oct 13, 2008)

Ok, back to the missing 2 legions idea, here's an outlandish idea.

Now mind you, I haven't read all of the fluff. Just some random 40K novels and all of the Horus Heresy series, so I'm working with incomplete knowledge.

Given that the Emperor is "very old," that he had the foresight to seed the future of the mechanicum, fought multitude of wars on ancient Terra, with enemies conjuring up daemons (something of about Chronicles of Ursh?), and was an exceptional psyker himself, isn't it possible that he knew that the 20 test tube babies would be spread all over the galaxy (or maybe more than just knew...) and that Horus would rebel against him?

From what I read in the Horus Heresy series, regular people in 30K verse simply didn't believe in Chaos. It was taught that they are just superstitious mumbo jumbo. But the Emperor knew. And has always known. 

Stay with me, there's a point.

Can it be unreasonable to say that the 2 missing legions were a precursor to the Grey Knights? Not a pregenitor to the the Grey Knights per say, but 2 legions who's sole task and purpose is to combat foes that are taught to be imaginary and fictional? If so, how can you publish any of their actions at all? Or their continued existence? Too many question would be raised. Better to make them all "lost" and let them continue on with their work un-checked. And this would be especially true if the two legions were destroyed. 

Ok, sleep now...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Have any of you guys heard of "Liber Chaotica"? Its a book in fantasy about this guy who slowly turns into chaos. He tries to keep the name of sigmar from falling from his grasp, but in the end fails. Ok bare with me, i will make my point.
In the book which is actually a fantasy type warhammer he actually has visions about 40K crap and draws them in the book. He draws Lucius and a defiler and some other shit. So, if the two world coexist some how (even through visions), in paralel universes, isn't it possible that the emperor be in the fantasy world too... Hmm... Sigmar... The man who basically united mankind under him... just like the other primarchs... weird...


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## Madocke (Mar 29, 2009)

The emperor just had a vision that primarch number 'II' would one day be a fierce and strong opponent. When he awoke he thought to himself: was it number eleven? Or are these roman numerals and is it actually number two? Better be save then sorry: wipe them out; both of them...

k:


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

The two lost Primarchs stole the jammy dodgers from the Emperor's biscuit jar.....The Emperor REALLY likes jammy dodgers.:nono:

As for what ckcrawford said. The Old Ones and Chaos are the 2 linking factors between the Warhammer and 40k universes. They are probably seperate dimensions that both have links to the warp and the Old Ones (who had the ability to travel to different dimensions) have been prominant in both. There are examples of 40k wargear appearing in the old world and Daemons who have been in both universes.

The Old background was that the Warhammer world is a world surrounded by warpstorms but I am sure this is no longer canon and they wish to keep the two dimensions/games very seperate entities.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Death Shroud said:


> The Old background was that the Warhammer world is a world surrounded by warpstorms but I am sure this is no longer canon and they wish to keep the two dimensions/games very seperate entities.


Yes i remember reading that somewhere. The Old world was cut off by warp storms and Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs.

The origins of the Old World (Old ones) as you said ties in with what happened in 40k. 

I personally like the idea of the Old World being in the 40k universe.

But yes its no longer canon as GW wished to keep the two games seperate! (i imagine WFB players would be very annoyed if their world was just a petty, insignificant one in a much larger galaxy )


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Their were actually 21 primarchs if u count omegon as well as alpharius.:laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Captain Stillios said:


> Their were actually 21 primarchs if u count omegon as well as alpharius.:laugh:


Nope Alpharius and Omegon are classed as One Primarch. ("One soul in two Bodies") - Hence there known as 'Alpharius Omegon' - If there were 21 Primarchs each created by the Emperor remember, there would have been 21 legions and obviously the Emperor would have been aware there was 21!

The Emperor wasnt aware of Omegon, and its logical to suggest that Chaos/warp mutation occured them to split into twins (in a similar way to Magnus gained a cyclopian eye and Sanguinius gained wings.)

Link (this may elaborate more)


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I thought in Horus's vision in Flase Gods (I think) he saw 2 essences in one tank, implying that the Alpha Legion primarch was 2 from prior to the 'accident' in the lab. If I am wrong, please correct me, I lent my first three novels to a friend who just got into the game, so I can't go look it up.

As for the 40k/WFB universes, GW has retconned their cannon history so that they are two entirely separate settings and have no interactions with each other.

My understanding of the Grey Knights was that they were made of the loyalists left alive from the traitor legions (possibly specifically from the Death Guard geneseed, but I haven't seen anything personally that makes me believe it is more specific than just the loyalists from the traitor legions.)

As for the 2 missing primarchs, I know that GW really just made them missing so that people could feel free to make up their own First Founding chapters if they wanted. If I were to be asked to explain it in some manner of canon story, I would probably have had one been the 'god' of some xenos race on the planet he landed on, with no desire to recant his behavior, thus forcing the Emperor to kill the primarch and wipe the record of that one.

The second could be anything, but I think the best story for a second missing primarch would be one that never happened. I like in Horus's vision that he comments to himself about so much wasted potential when he is looking at one of the 2 missing primarch incubation tubes, and I think that one should just have been killed before incubation by the disaster in the lab. Tube breaks open, etc. causing the primarch to die out before it can grow into a primarch proper.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> I thought in Horus's vision in Flase Gods (I think) he saw 2 essences in one tank, implying that the Alpha Legion primarch was 2 from prior to the 'accident' in the lab. If I am wrong, please correct me, I lent my first three novels to a friend who just got into the game, so I can't go look it up.


Nope at first he saw himself in one of the incubation tanks. then moved along them all if i can remember. He never saw 2 essences in 1 tank  (as i said if he did, the Emperor would have known about Omegon)



space cowboy said:


> My understanding of the Grey Knights was that they were made of the loyalists left alive from the traitor legions (possibly specifically from the Death Guard geneseed, but I haven't seen anything personally that makes me believe it is more specific than just the loyalists from the traitor legions.)


That is what is implied aye.  Although i dont necessarily think the Grey Knights came from Death Guard geneseed in particular.


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

Hmmmmm
Omegon, Sigmar and grey knights oh my!

What if the lost Primarchs never came out of the warp? 
Maybe they were the first Deamon princes because of this?

what if one was Lost in the warp let's no. 11, 11 returns for the first ever daemonic incursion on some human planet looking for daddy, No.2 goes to fight 11 not knowing his brother untill the warp breach closes and both are sucked into the warp, 2 returns founds the grey knights and sets about entering the warp to hunt his brother 11?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Searune said:


> Hmmmmm
> Omegon, Sigmar and grey knights oh my!
> 
> What if the lost Primarchs never came out of the warp?
> ...


:biggrin:

I think thats impossible as we know the Emperor actually discovered the 2 missing primarchs. There 2 statues were present on Terra, but were covered over by the time of the heresy.


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## Dalek (Apr 8, 2009)

The Imperium seems to like their Space Marines quite a lot, so surely wouldn't erase knowledge of entire legions due to shame? Also, the records of traitor legions are still intact, so whatever they did must be even worse than turning to Chaos.

What if, in a quest to protect the Emperor and the Imperium, they made peace with an enemy? The Imperium wouldn't be too happy about that, in a galaxy where war is everything.


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## Fire Lord (Feb 15, 2009)

Come on guys, think this out. 20 were found. 20 legions were created. 9 legions were loyal to Terra. 9 legions rebelled against Terra. The missing 2 definately were eradicated from record pre-heresy. :headbutt: This is known!
The real question is this. What did or could have happened that would cause the Emperor (being the only logical one to be able to erase records) to remove the second and eleventh legions?
The logical answer has to be something exceptionally painful to the Emperor. What would cause a father to disown his own son? 
I feel maybe (and a big one at that!) the primarchs had been influenced by chaos or some other ideal, decided to throw off the Emperors' rule, and turned renegade. Perhaps they wanted absolute power, even to be emperor. Perhaps the Emperor crushed them, one or both. However, he covered it up, wiped the rest of the legions' minds, and "thought" everything was ok. 
But who knows.:dunno:


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

Maybe he put 2 and 11 in stasis (after he collected them) for he foresaw Abadon's Black Cursades so they may be used when the time is moast dire but was wounded by Horus before he couls "De-Frost" them and he had intentionally not kept record of this


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## inquisitoryorei (Nov 25, 2007)

all very interesting ideas. either way you ;ook at it, i think GW just deleted them because they wanted to give us room for our own creativity.


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

I know but it is too anticlimatic


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

inquisitoryorei said:


> all very interesting ideas. either way you ;ook at it, i think GW just deleted them because they wanted to give us room for our own creativity.



If you want to be creative, just make a 13th Founding Chapter.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Fire Lord said:


> Come on guys, think this out. 20 were found. 20 legions were created. 9 legions were loyal to Terra. 9 legions rebelled against Terra. The missing 2 definately were eradicated from record pre-heresy. :headbutt: This is known!
> The real question is this. What did or could have happened that would cause the Emperor (being the only logical one to be able to erase records) to remove the second and eleventh legions?
> The logical answer has to be something exceptionally painful to the Emperor. What would cause a father to disown his own son?
> I feel maybe (and a big one at that!) the primarchs had been influenced by chaos or some other ideal, decided to throw off the Emperors' rule, and turned renegade. Perhaps they wanted absolute power, even to be emperor. Perhaps the Emperor crushed them, one or both. However, he covered it up, wiped the rest of the legions' minds, and "thought" everything was ok.
> But who knows.:dunno:


The Legion records were deleted after the heresy. The two legions may have just up and left.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Well, I don't think the Astartes have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, so the Forgotten Primarchs might have been... you know...


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

They may of been killed and deleted so that the other legions don't lose hope


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## LemanRussWillReturn (Apr 20, 2009)

Or is there a possibility that the other Primarchs where found. It could be that the Emperor has sent these other Primarchs and their Legions on a completely different crusade 1 that supposedly does not show up in any Imperial Records because he has erased their existence for his own personal secretive uses. There has also been talk about Leman Russ looking for the The Tree of Life. Could this have something to do with the missing Primarchs?


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, personally, i think you should give me a dollar. And maybe another


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## lostprophet (Jun 8, 2008)

well in traditional GW fashion, what ever was said before will be retconned to fit the new sales directives


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

What I really think is that the emperor forsaw Horus's betrayal but only after he had found most of the primarchs. Horus could not just disappear and he could not bring himself to kill Horus or set up a situation where he would die so he decied that he would send the two remaining primarchs and their legions away so they would come back fter the Heresy and save the Imperium of Man. But, a few years after they left the Tyranids launched an invsion , so the two primarchs sent their forces to stop them. They succeded but took heavy casualties. 

When the Heresy had the Tyranids attacked again but they had evolved specifically to fight space marines. After a few months of fighting it became clear that the marines would lose, so the two primarchs decided one of them should return to the Emperor and tell him they failed and warn him of the invasion. However the priarch that left was intercepted by Horus and turned to Chaos. In return Horus gave him some of his legion, but those who he gave had not turned to Chaos nor were they aware that they were betraying the Emperor, Horus had told them their battle brothers had renounced the Emperor. The Emperor heard news of a new primarch arriving and turning traitor and knew it was one of the primarchs he had sent away. He though the primarch had killed his brother primarch and somehow destroyed both legions, then left to join the Heresy. The Emperor was so upset he tracked down the primarch and killed him. Back to the other primarch. The other primarch and a select few of his warriors had actually fended off the tyranids and left to return to Imperial space, knowing their forces would be useless after the Heresy. 

When they arrived they found the force his traitor primarch brother (the one who left) used to control. When the remaining primarch heard the news of traitorus battle brothers he went straight to Terra. The Emperor told him of what happened and the primarch vowe to fight by the Emperors side, but the Emperor said no and gave him all the geneseeds he had left, repaired defective geneseeds from Word Bearers, Sons of Horus (now known as Black Legion) but mainly they were from Thousand Sons. The Emperor then told him to run away and regain the Imperium if the might of the remaining Legions failed t hold off Horus. He agreed and left. After the Heresy he came back and started the Blood Ravens chapter. However later he heard that Leman Russ was searching for the Tree of Life, whose fruit would restore any person to their prime. He had to go off in search of this tree, so he looked for a way to exuse himself for a few years. He found a way to do this when their was a rebellion in the Gothic sector, during the campian an assault went wrong and the chapter master along with many of the Blood Ravens 'died' but in truth they smashed the heretics and left in search of Leman Russ with his warriors. The Emperor deleted all records of the two primarchs so no-one could find out about the traitorus one.


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