# Was Horus the fall guy(First Heretic spoilers)



## ChaplinWhulfgar (May 9, 2008)

When the Serrated sun were in the warp and they started the whole "find the Primarchs." One of them said he heard Horus screaming, did the Chaos gods set him up to cover the word bearers.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I haven't read First Heretic yet, but I believe the Dark Gods wanted Horus because he was the most powerful, and the closest to the Emperor in that power and influence. Remember - people in his fleets fought for Lupercal at least as much as for the Emperor Himself, after the latter's departure back to Terra.

So, no, not picked to be a fall guy - picked on his own merit. Other benefits were bonus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ChaplinWhulfgar said:


> When the Serrated sun were in the warp and they started the whole "find the Primarchs." One of them said he heard Horus screaming, did the Chaos gods set him up to cover the word bearers.


I don't believe either the vision Hours saw in his delerium or the one the Word Bearers were shown by the deamon actually happened. Imo they were just twisted and fabricated facts to turn them from the Emperor and to their side.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

"Fall guy" is a bit too extreme, but the "First Heretic" is not Horus -- it's Lorgar. And Lorgar instructed his people, especially Erebus, to go among other legions and spread the seed of heresy and rebellion. I always wondered about Erebus' role in HH. First Heretic makes it clear that Horus was led toward rebellion by Lorgar and company. Horus might have been on the edge already, but he was pushed.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I thought i was common knowledge before The First Heretic that Lorgar and company were the masterminds behind it all.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I thought i was common knowledge before The First Heretic that Lorgar and company were the masterminds behind it all.


AoB, glad for your reply. I hope all of you hardcore HH fans will remember that there are a lot of us out here who merely dabble in the dark labyrinth of the BL. I probably read too much (minimum 500 pages/week) and the HH is just one area of interest. I assume I'm not the only one still stumbling along trying to figure out WTF is going on!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Get yourself collected visions. Its sort of the Horus Heresy bible


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that the vision was real, what Argel Tal and the other Word Bearers saw was indeed the past and it was they who destroyed the Gellar Field and revealed the Primarchs to the Chaos Gods, allowing them to be stolen. When they heard Horus screaming it was a throw-back to False Gods, when Horus is shown the Gene-Labs himself and screams when he sees the Primarchs being taken away, which was caused by Argel Tal whom he didn't see.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I thought Magnus was the preffered tool from which the Ruinous Powers would end the Emperor's dominance over mankind. The Daemon, probably of Tzeentchian origin, says as much to Magnus in _A Thousand Sons_. Horus was closest to the Emperor; he was the first Primarch to be discovered I believe, and spent over thirty years conquering space with his father before any of his brothers were found. His bond with his father is arguably the strongest, and henceforth, in a sense, not only the easiest to shatter, but nurturing this jealousy into resentment, bitterness and hatred would give the Dark Gods a tool no other Primarch could match. Also, the Sons of Horus were perhaps the strongest Legion. Though not as numerous as the Ultramarines or Word Bearers (I think?) they were perhaps the most high-tech, being the 'favoured' Legion of Mars (I believe something in _Horus Rising _mentions Terminator suits being gifted to the Luna Wolves before any other Legion?) and, you can argue that Horus' Legion was the most versed in warfare; the most experience and so forth. 

It's the logical choice. Horus, and his gene-sons were very ambitious. After Isstvan V whilst Argel Tal and Erebus walk the battlefield, it is noted how the Night Lords shun the Gal Vorbak and the Sons of Horus seem more curious. It shows unfetted ambition, to strive for greatness, to transcend what the Emperor's Imperium can provide and ascend to being ''One with the Gods'' with the idea of Daemonic Possession/Rebirth* 

The Sons of Horus are the ideal Legion, with the ideal Primarch. Magnus was too obvious a choice; his keen mind for the schematics of the Warp/Great Ocean and his Legion were too_ imperfect_; plus it seems they were only suited to Tzeentch and no Chaos Undivided. 

Lorgar is your classic sneaky puppetmaster. He hasn't the swuave charm, the oratry (I don't care if he brought worlds to compliance without a shot being fired, his oral skills [har-har] were more suited to zealotic masses, over Army commanders and beings of war) or glory of Horus Lupercal. However, he uses Horus as a figurehead for his own ends, who he, in turn is manipulated by Chaos.

Ugh... in the end, it's complicated and I guess it's purposeful. I suppose these debates are quite fun from time to time:victory:

*Btw, I'm curious - was Fulgrim Daemonically Possessed or born anew into a denizen of Slaanesh -A Daemon Prince- with a portion of his 'mortal' mind locked away and tortured?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't believe either the vision Hours saw in his delerium or the one the Word Bearers were shown by the deamon actually happened. Imo they were just twisted and fabricated facts to turn them from the Emperor and to their side.


I think this is a valid view given the ways of Chaos, but I tend to believe that every vision given by Chaos throughout the Horus Heresy was true. 

Both Horus and Alpha Legion (for example) were given what I consider to be 'true' (as in not fabricated) visions but the explanations of what path would lead to such futures was false.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

increaso said:


> I think this is a valid view given the ways of Chaos, but I tend to believe that every vision given by Chaos throughout the Horus Heresy was true.
> 
> Both Horus and Alpha Legion (for example) were given what I consider to be 'true' (as in not fabricated) visions but the explanations of what path would lead to such futures was false.


Agreed, Chaos' power is all the greater when what they say rings true.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

bobss said:


> *Btw, I'm curious - was Fulgrim Daemonically Possessed or born anew into a denizen of Slaanesh -A Daemon Prince- with a portion of his 'mortal' mind locked away and tortured?


No Fulrgim was completely possesed by a deamon, the one that was trapped in the Laeren blade. All that Fulgrim was is now locked into a corner of his mind unable to do anything about it.


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## ChaplinWhulfgar (May 9, 2008)

I thought he was locked in the painting like a whole Dorein Gray thing


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

NO fulgrim is locked inside his mind somewhere being tortured. He was so sad by killing his Brother Manus, that the demon inside the Laeran blade asked if he wanted to be free of all his pain, Fulgrim so emotionally messed up agreed, and the Deamon there fore took over. Fulgrim did not know that was what the daemon meant. Horus swore to kill the daemon inside Fulgrim, but of course never got the chance.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> No Fulrgim was completely possesed by a deamon, the one that was trapped in the Laeren blade. All that Fulgrim was is now locked into a corner of his mind unable to do anything about it.


Surely that makes Fulgrim a Primarch in _possession_ of a -presumably powerful- daemon of Slaanesh. However, in 40k -or in the case of Doombreed, pre-30k- whenever a mortal champion appeases favoured patron(s) or the whole Chaos Pantheon, they are remade into a lietenant of said God(s) daemonic Legions. This is totally different, they are remade by the energies of the Warp into the image (in a loose sense) of their patron. 

I've always thought of Fulgrim as a Daemon _Prince_/Primarch. However, he cannot be a Daemon Prince as all that has occured is possession. Okay, I admit he is one of the more stronger Primarch's and no-doubt the daemon within Laren was a Keeper of Secrets or some other powerful daemon bound to Slaanesh. 

But that's still just possession. Not daemonification. A Primarch's metabolism and gene/warp borne perfection probably isn't altered significantly by a daemon's possession, in comparison to the Gal Vorbak. Yes, Fulgrim gains two additional arms, yes his legs merge into a tail similar to that of a Wurm (Snake/slug... thingy) but that seems more intentional. There is no sporadic, seemingly random bone-ridges or spines, or constanty oozing ichor or blood. 

Maybe it's a pointless argument. But I've always thought daemonic possession -despite it's boons- is weaker than Daemonification. Surely Fulgrim would be weaker than his brother Daemon Primarchs? As they probably underwent the ultimate boon of their patron - transcending to the rank of Daemon Prince - or greater yet, Daemon Primarch (It's still daemonification, but instead of a petty moral Astartes it is something as powerful as a Primarch)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> Maybe it's a pointless argument. But I've always thought daemonic possession -despite it's boons- is weaker than Daemonification. Surely Fulgrim would be weaker than his brother Daemon Primarchs? As they probably underwent the ultimate boon of their patron - transcending to the rank of Daemon Prince - or greater yet, Daemon Primarch (It's still daemonification, but instead of a petty moral Astartes it is something as powerful as a Primarch)


I would generally agree with what you said, but ultimately it depends on how powerful or favoured the daemon was - it may well be that it was more powerful than the daemonified Primarchs, like some daemons inevitably are.



Angel of Blood said:


> No Fulrgim was completely possesed by a deamon, the one that was trapped in the Laeren blade. All that Fulgrim was is now locked into a corner of his mind unable to do anything about it.


Thats how it was immediately post-Isstvan V, but who knows what has happened in the 10,000 years since. If I remember even the remnants of the III Legion are unaware of Fulgrim's location or condition as it stands.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Get yourself collected visions. Its sort of the Horus Heresy bible


Done. $31.50 (gulp) from Amazon.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

bobss said:


> Surely that makes Fulgrim a Primarch in _possession_ of a -presumably powerful- daemon of Slaanesh. However, in 40k -or in the case of Doombreed, pre-30k- whenever a mortal champion appeases favoured patron(s) or the whole Chaos Pantheon, they are remade into a lietenant of said God(s) daemonic Legions. This is totally different, they are remade by the energies of the Warp into the image (in a loose sense) of their patron.


No i would argue its more the case of a deamon in _possession _of a massively powerful individual, infact pretty much the most ideal form they could ever possess short of the Emperor himself. And it had to have been a very strong deamon i would think to possess a Primarch like that.



bobss said:


> I've always thought of Fulgrim as a Daemon _Prince_/Primarch. However, he cannot be a Daemon Prince as all that has occured is possession. Okay, I admit he is one of the more stronger Primarch's and no-doubt the daemon within Laren was a Keeper of Secrets or some other powerful daemon bound to Slaanesh.


I would say Fulgrim is a Deamon Possessed-Primarch.



bobss said:


> But that's still just possession. Not daemonification. A Primarch's metabolism and gene/warp borne perfection probably isn't altered significantly by a daemon's possession, in comparison to the Gal Vorbak. Yes, Fulgrim gains two additional arms, yes his legs merge into a tail similar to that of a Wurm (Snake/slug... thingy) but that seems more intentional. There is no sporadic, seemingly random bone-ridges or spines, or constanty oozing ichor or blood.


But the Gal Vorbak are possessed just like Fulgrim, the difference being that they co-exist with the deamon and still retain control, yet they are able to change their forms massively when changed by a deamon. With that in mind i would imagine the deamon being in full control of Fulgrim would be able to change his form even more drastically and permenantly. And i mean have you seen the picture of Fulgrim after the deamon has altered his form in collected visions? It's much much mroe drastic than the Gal Vorbak. He's got wings, a complete powerful serpentine body with a very long tail, multiple arms, whole skin has changed colour to purple and probably changed its texture i would imagine. His head has grown horns and other tentacle like additions, by the looks of him there are alot more stuff coming out his back. His body had been completely altered in almost every single way.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats how it was immediately post-Isstvan V, but who knows what has happened in the 10,000 years since. If I remember even the remnants of the III Legion are unaware of Fulgrim's location or condition as it stands.


True, but i imagine they will keep it that way, it's much better story wise and adds to the whole tragedy of his fall. Would be sorely disapointed if Fulgrim managed to get hold of himself again and then just carried on serving the gods. I dont remmber reading anything to inidcate Fulgrim is lost from his Legion. Last mention of him i can remember is when he killed Guilliman.


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