# A few misty areas of the Chaos Fluff



## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

There are some kinda... illogical areas of Chaos fluff, 2 which strongly come to mind...

Firstly; How is Abaddon not a Daemon Prince.. I can only assume that Daemonhood makes you Strong/Bigger/Scarier, And i'm absolutely Certain Abaddon has earnt it.

Why was Horus not a Daemon Prince, especially as he was the 1st Person to achieve Blessing of all 4 gods. If He had been promoted to DaemonHood, he would surely have topped The Emperor, because DaemonHood is said to make you strong/more powerful, ect.

Secondly;
If Daemons are created in the warp, Why dosn't Khorne just go. 

"Right, 1,000,000,000 Bloodthirsters on terra, This should be fun" 
"Oh and The Unbound One, you can also go there, your pretty Hench"

followed by Nurgle tagging in saying; "Oh, have some help, Endless hordes of Plague Bearers."

I don't know if i've mis-understood how Daemon summoning works, But i'm sure that they can just be summoned into Champions. 

Thirdly and Finally; Khorne's Sacred sword is described as to have such immense Power that it can destroy worlds in a single blow.

Am i missing something, or can He not just smite Terra once and for all.
_____________

I know if all this was true, Then chaos would just win everything no contest. but i like chaos, and i want them to win. 

My point is, this stuff needs to be explained to me, because it annoys me how restricted us Chaos are


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

im pretty sure horus and abbadon didnt want to be princes also it would take alot of energy to make that many daemons more than the chaos gods have and khorne is not corporeal enough to smite terra


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

What do you mean Khornes not "Corporeal Enough", Hesthe most powerful chaos god, The oldest; The god of Blood, War and everything else related to mass slaughter and unkempt Anihilation.

And besides, if the metaphor states he could destroy worlds with 1 blow, I doubt it matters what that planet is called, or whats on it. A Planet is a Planet 

In a realistic Battle, chaos would win so easily, and Space marines and IG would have been wiped out Along time ago. The only reason that hasn't happened, is that GW Make alot of money from SM.


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## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

While the chaos gods are exceedingly powerful, it is my understanding that their power exists only in the immaterium. Hence they cant take physical form in the materium and go stomping on worlds as you are suggesting.

Deamons are created from a portion of their parent god's power, so if khorne decided it would be funsies to make 100000000000 bloodthirsters, im sure that would weaken him quite alot leaving him vulnerable to the other chaos gods

and perhaps the chaos powers do not even wish to destroy the imperium, afterall most deamon princes (esp the primarch ones) tend to stay in the eye of terror minding their own affairs


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> Firstly; How is Abaddon not a Daemon Prince.. I can only assume that Daemonhood makes you Strong/Bigger/Scarier, And i'm absolutely Certain Abaddon has earnt it.


screwing up every crusade you launch and missing an entire planet with the most powerful ship based weapon around are 2 very good reason not to be a daemon, but instead a spawn.

abbadon the despoiler?, more like abbadon the slightly angry kitten


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

As for the DP, Horus died to soon, most of the primarchs became dp after the HH, but DP aren't my field. Not to mention most DP are stuck in the eye of terror.


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## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> abbadon the despoiler?, more like abbadon the slightly angry kitten


while i am a fan of old abby... i couldn't help but laugh :biggrin:


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

corporeal means solid khorne isnt solid enough to attack terra he only has power in his domain


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

im sure its more along the lines of horus and abaddon been more useful as mortal servents then daemon princes, as it takes a lot of effort for a daemon prince to become corporeal in the material realm
its the same again for khorne it prob takes alot of effort to create his daemona dn allow them into the material realm, and prob whats also stoppping khorne from shattering earth is the emperor,


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> screwing up every crusade you launch and missing an entire planet with the most powerful ship based weapon around are 2 very good reason not to be a daemon, but instead a spawn.
> 
> abbadon the despoiler?, more like abbadon the slightly angry kitten


 To be fair, he's taking on a fairly Big target.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> To be fair, he's taking on a fairly Big target.


exactly, further reinforcing his FAIL combat doctrine, its like shooting a pistol at the earth while on its surface and missing.

he should just get his bolter and shoot himself.........except he'd miss then as well probably.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

it's nothing like that. 

Your making it out as if hes got a bigger force and failing.

Hes attacking the most defended Planet in the galaxy, with a relatively small force comparing to the defending side.

And defenders have the advantage, because its on their home turf, and they'll have like bases, with huge defensive weaponry.

And the annoying truth is that abaddon wont ever win, because that would be the end of IG and Sm.

It really bugs me how restricted chaos are, and then you get a 12 year old Sm player come and say; "chaos sucks they can't win" When the truth is chaos would win hands down.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ok, they didn't want to become DP because they are more useful as they were. Tbh, how much work have the other princes done? I know of two who are actually active, angron and magnus, and the rest are to buisy jacking off on a pleasure world or praying. Once a being accends to daemon hood they lose all sense of purpose other than that of their god(s). And, tbh, Horus was more powerful with the makes of all the gods than any of the daemon primarchs.


And Abbadon won't win because the gods don't want him to.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

One advantage of abbadon being mortal is that he can't be banished to the warp by some stupid grey knights like angron was on armaggedon
Also the chaos gods don't want to kill to many humans because in the end the SMs and ig make the chaos gods stronger by killing and fighting etc...
Finally the daemon princes stay in the eye of terror so that SM players have an excuse as for why they haven't been pounded into the dirt yet


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ROT said:


> Firstly; How is Abaddon not a Daemon Prince.. I can only assume that Daemonhood makes you Strong/Bigger/Scarier, And i'm absolutely Certain Abaddon has earnt it.
> 
> Why was Horus not a Daemon Prince, especially as he was the 1st Person to achieve Blessing of all 4 gods. If He had been promoted to DaemonHood, he would surely have topped The Emperor, because DaemonHood is said to make you strong/more powerful, ect.


Abaddon has earned the right to ascend many times over but he refuses it each and every time, his anger and bitterness are still as potent as during the Heresy and he won't withdraw from mortal concerns until Terra is a burning husk and he's gnawed on the Emperor's bones.
Horus was just never offered it, the same as the rest of the Primarchs during the Heresy- they were required to operate in the mortal realm and becoming a daemon would have been counter-productive for the Warmaster.


ROT said:


> Secondly;
> If Daemons are created in the warp, Why dosn't Khorne just go.
> 
> "Right, 1,000,000,000 Bloodthirsters on terra, This should be fun"
> ...


Well daemons can only emerge on a planet when a rift is opened, which can only happen when the layer between the materium and immaterium is made so thin as to make a rift possible (rituals and summoning being one of those ways) but with the Emperor's presence the layer between the 2 realms is impossibly thick to create a rift unless there is a huge chaos army already killing in the name of the Dark Gods on Terra- i.e. the Siege of Terra.



ROT said:


> Thirdly and Finally; Khorne's Sacred sword is described as to have such immense Power that it can destroy worlds in a single blow.
> 
> Am i missing something, or can He not just smite Terra once and for all.


His weapon is incredibly powerful but as has been said the Gods are not like their daemons, they're a part of their realms- the bone fields of Khorne are as much a part of him as his physical manifestation, they can't leave the warp. Any planets smashed by the sword (unless it's just a description of how ruinous the weapon could be) would be those swallowed whole by the immaterium.


Abaddon hasn't failed with all his Crusades, I couldn't tell the you the objectives for most of them but he won with his 12th Crusade- the intention of which was to take possession of or neutralise the Blackstone Fortresses.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Supersonic Banana said:


> One advantage of abbadon being mortal is that he can't be banished to the warp by some stupid grey knights like angron was on armaggedon


Yep.... This way he can only be killed and totally removed from the game... Oh shit that's not better!


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Chaos can't win becouse they don't want to. 

lets assume chaos takes over the Galaxy, ok now what? Khone is the god of war not victory victory means there no enemy, nothing to kill to war against. and even loyal marines are dange "killy" Nurgle is the god of death but if he wins and kill everything, there nothing left to kill. but some imperium worlds are, dang hellesh (I will ignore his split persinlity). Slaanesh is the god of exuse, but there a Exuse to the Imperium (every seen what the sisters of battle do to them selfs for the Empoure:scare Tzeentch is the god of sceames, if he wins no more sceams. and Inqusitors have some all the time.
to boil this down the the Imperium feeds the choas gods as much as true chaos servents by its mere existences, a good anlog is a quto from Codex Witch hunters, "it is here that there beliefs come full circle to become a dark mirror of the Ultra Radicals"
chaos won't win becuse if they did they would lose the part of the Imperium that feeds them, like sour and sweet they taste diffrent and can be equlely enjoyable but a life time of one or the other gets old fast.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> When the truth is chaos would win hands down.


not when they leave a moron who can't hit a planet sized object in charge they won't, thats gonna stick with abbadon until he eventually dies, after failing the 100th black crusade and chaos FINALLY turns the useless angst ridden twerp into a spawn who gets close combated to death by Kharn and typhus driving the planet killer into his spawn face before leading the 101st crusade to victory faster than posh spice slaps on the fake tan.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

dragonkingofthestars said:


> Chaos can't win becouse they don't want to.
> 
> lets assume chaos takes over the Galaxy, ok now what? Khone is the god of war not victory victory means there no enemy, nothing to kill to war against. and even loyal marines are dange "killy" Nurgle is the god of death but if he wins and kill everything, there nothing left to kill. but some imperium worlds are, dang hellesh (I will ignore his split persinlity). Slaanesh is the god of exuse, but there a Exuse to the Imperium (every seen what the sisters of battle do to them selfs for the Empoure:scare Tzeentch is the god of sceames, if he wins no more sceams. and Inqusitors have some all the time.
> to boil this down the the Imperium feeds the choas gods as much as true chaos servents by its mere existences, a good anlog is a quto from Codex Witch hunters, "it is here that there beliefs come full circle to become a dark mirror of the Ultra Radicals"
> chaos won't win becuse if they did they would lose the part of the Imperium that feeds them, like sour and sweet they taste diffrent and can be equlely enjoyable but a life time of one or the other gets old fast.


Lol I see where you're going with this, but I think it misses the mark a bit.

If Chaos ruled the galaxy, Khorne could finally turn his attention to the upstart cowardly whelp, Slaanesh. He'd be more than happy to kill Slaaneshi babies, followed by the scheming, filthy magic-using Tzeentch worshipers. Tzeentch wants to control the universe; that *is* his big scheme. Once its conquered, he could turn it into a massive Maze, like his home in the Warp, and mindfuck all creation for the rest of eternity. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? Nurgle - same thing applies as Khorne. All he's concerned with is decay and hugging his servants, whether they be Imperial dogs or servants of the other Gods. Slaanesh would be killed by Khorne, or perhaps Ynnead if all the Eldar died and their prophecy came true.

I will agree, however, that they probably gain some pleasure from converting Imperials. Especially Slaaneshi.

I know OP likes Chaos and wants Chaos to steamroll everything, but they can't. The best chance they have is working together as Chaos Undivided, but that's rare. And so the galaxy survives.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Tzeentch wants to control the universe; that *is* his big scheme. Once its conquered, he could turn it into a massive Maze, like his home in the Warp, and mindfuck all creation for the rest of eternity. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?


Bzzt. Tzeentch has no end-game plan. If he did, and he achieved it, well that's the end of his scheming, isn't it? His plots self-perpetuate because that's what he is and wants to be. He doesn't want to create a maze or any other bullshit like that; he just wants to play an endless chess game with the entire universe.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Everything you guys are saying makes sense, except this;



Stella Cadente said:


> not when they leave a moron who can't hit a planet sized object in charge they won't, thats gonna stick with abbadon until he eventually dies, after failing the 100th black crusade and chaos FINALLY turns the useless angst ridden twerp into a spawn who gets close combated to death by Kharn and typhus driving the planet killer into his spawn face before leading the 101st crusade to victory faster than posh spice slaps on the fake tan.


 Your literally an idiot, Your saying that abaddon is useless, Even though he's lead 13 Black Crusades? Your Under the impression that hes "missed"... I want to know your explanation for thinking Abaddon is useless. 

If you can explain, i'll take back my comment that your an idiot. But you seriously have no logic at all.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Khargoth said:


> Bzzt. Tzeentch has no end-game plan. If he did, and he achieved it, well that's the end of his scheming, isn't it? His plots self-perpetuate because that's what he is and wants to be. He doesn't want to create a maze or any other bullshit like that; he just wants to play an endless chess game with the entire universe.


Point still stands though. Wouldn't those schemes continue whether they're carried out on Imperials or the servants of his rivals?

I guess I'd want to make a Maze if I were him. Watch everyone get lost, watch them try to see the exit by standing on each others' shoulders, have some Screamers swoop in and eat them all, have pitfalls, traps, random Warp portals... good time, good time.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> Your literally an idiot, Your saying that abaddon is useless, Even though he's lead 13 Black Crusades?


and how many has he lost?, sure he might be outnumbered in the long run, but surely this great warlord of chaos can muster enough resources to gain a foothold quicker than he has so far?, and hold it longer, or use more diversionary tactics to level the numbers around the eye of terror to gain an advantage.

he has a technological advantage alone, his ships would be older imperial vessels, moore powerful, faster and with greater weapons (and possibly blackstone fortresses if his did not deactivate)

he has the most experienced warriors possible to call upon.

he has the power of 4 gods on his side

he has powerful allies like Typhus.

yet still the best he can do is bimble around like a moron and give the imperium plenty of time to react to his attacks time and time again, when all he has to do is blow cadia to dust with one shot.........which he can't even manage that.


ROT said:


> Your Under the impression that hes "missed"... I want to know your explanation for thinking Abaddon is useless.


he did miss, he fired a massively powerful gun capable of killing an entire planet in a single shot, a weapon feared by the imperium, commanded by the most bloodthirsty loyal troops in the galaxy..........and got a glancing hit on a practically stationary target the size of...well a planet.

there is no other way possible to interpret that, HE MISSED and every chaos warrior present facepalmed simultaneously.

even Kharn would of gone to the nearest corner and cried in shame at being remotely associated with him.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Lol, You don't seem to understand the strength of the Imperium, and how much damage he has done to it, his FIRST crusade, he killed over 1 million Loyalists in a week. 

Theres 1 reason he missed... There would be no story line if he hit. Your missing the point that everything is stacked against chaos, Theres been so many ways in which Chaos would have realisticly have won, and only havn't because the imperium would be screwed and all the 12 year olds collecting SM would cry.

Its not how chaos are stacked against that annoys me, it's when people genuinly think that the Warmaster of Chaos Missed with a huge missile when aiming for a planet.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

well chaos doesnt always lose, storm of iron, iron warriors won, word bearers trilogy, word bearers virtually won in all the books,


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Fiction is fiction, SM players will claim it didnt really happen.

Someone i know in real life has actually said that too me. >.<

I got so angry, lol.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> Lol, You don't seem to understand the strength of the Imperium, and how much damage he has done to it, his FIRST crusade, he killed over 1 million Loyalists in a week.


christ 1 million, wow, so he is ALMOST, as evil as adolf hitler...........heck the imperium kills 1 million everyday just for the hell of it


ROT said:


> it's when people genuinly think that the Warmaster of Chaos Missed with a huge missile when aiming for a planet.


only an idiot would think that, of course he didn't miss with a huge missile.......he missed with a huge laser.

and if its written in the fluff then its not people believing he missed, its people KNOWING he missed because its there in black and white, almost set in stone, and since this is talking about fluff it applies quite heavily.

I would LOVE if they advanced the fluff to a point cadia was destroyed and the Imperium pushed back, it would be awesome to set the imperium in an extremely difficult and dark age for them, when all hope seems lost, only to advance the fluff further to a point where the imperium comes back fighting and pushes abby back to the eye.

if that sort of stuff makes 12yr olds cry who gives a shit, todays 40k players couldn't care less about the fluff anyway as most of the little shits can't read anyway, advance the fluff for those of us who have the balls to actually take it or keep recycling the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> christ 1 million, wow, so he is ALMOST, as evil as adolf hitler...........heck the imperium kills 1 million everyday just for the hell of it
> 
> only an idiot would think that, of course he didn't miss with a huge missile.......he missed with a huge laser.
> 
> and if its written in the fluff then its not people believing he missed, its people KNOWING he missed because its there in black and white, almost set in stone, and since this is talking about fluff it applies quite heavily.


The imperium kills millions everyday for fun, You assume Chaos don't. You need to stop going on your Biased assumptions, Your arrogance is really annoying, learn to accept other peoples opinions, you've ruined my attempt at making a good thread with A good discussion going on.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> The imperium kills millions everyday for fun, You assume Chaos don't. You need to stop going on your Biased assumptions, Your arrogance is really annoying, learn to accept other peoples opinions, you've ruined my attempt at making a good thread with A good discussion going on.


its not biased or arrogant, its fact, abbaddon comes, kills billions, gets defeated, the billions that died are replaced in a few years with ill effect, so technically Abby loses.

he tries the same exact thing 12 times, and again 12 times in a row the same exact thing happens, so thats 13 losses, barely a dent in the imperium, no advancement on fluff, and a character forced to look like a muppet.

thats not bias, or arrogance, thats whats written by GW in black and white.

and GW advance the fluff and have Abby win for once, and a proper win not a "HAHAHA, I have slaughtered billions of people in an imperium made up of billion of planets full of billions and billions of people.........VICTORY IS MINE" before buggering off, then I may take a proper interest, at least they only made ghazkull lose 3 times, and even his losses were far more interesting.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

It wasn't 13 losses, if you werent desperately trying to now make me look like an idiot, you'd go and read some fluff and realise that he achieved a target on about 5 Crusades.

And your forgetting the fact that every crusade the Imperium Gets weaker, and the Tyranids are also sat there waiting for Chaos to weaken them JUST enough so that they can release trillions of 'Nids, while Abaddon will be sat there in the warp, drinking some gin with the Gods saying "Fuck you Stella *Middle Finger*"

Your so clueless about the crusades, so what do you know about the objectives  How do you know that Abaddon isn't smarter than you think, leading the 'Nids subconciously from another direction.

Your now going to brush this theory off by saying;

"L0L abaddon missed wi a giant l4sor, hes so noob"

Thats so far all you've managed to conjur up.

Got anything else to say?


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> and if its written in the fluff then its not people believing he missed, its people KNOWING he missed because its there in black and white, almost set in stone, and since this is talking about fluff it applies quite heavily.





Stella Cadente said:


> there is no "good" or "bad", as I said before
> in the 41st millennium there is no black and white, only shades of grey.


Quite Contradictory, I'd like to see you explain this one. 

Note: For the sake of Mods reading this, i'm not making drama, i enjoy heated Discussions.


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Stella Cadente raises good points, and ROT you can't discount what he says as biased because you're equally as predisposed for the other side. 

Personally I'm leaning towards Stella's point of view. Honestly if Chaos got their act together they could do so much more, it's just they put an idiot in charge. You can't really claim they're failing because they're outnumbered when you have the remnants of the traitor legions, potentially the most experienced marines in the galaxy (not only that but they're high on chaos), plus hordes of the cultists and daemons. Add a massive laser that can destroy entire planets into the mix then Abaddon does have a pretty good chance. He doesn't even need to jump out of his massive planet killer space ship to destroy Cadia.

EDIT: Stella isn't contradicting himself, I think. First time he means black and white as in typed print. (I think)


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> and how many has he lost?,.


I don't know. How many has he lost? We certainly don't know anythign about his objectives much. The most information we have on the Black Crusades is the 12th and the 13th. The 12th suceeded in his overall strategic objectives and Chaos won the 13th in the campaign.



Stella Cadente said:


> he has a technological advantage alone, his ships would be older imperial vessels, moore powerful, faster and with greater weapons (and possibly blackstone fortresses if his did not deactivate)


Cool, but the Imperials have fortifed the entire sector.



Stella Cadente said:


> he has the most experienced warriors possible to call upon.


And the Imperium put's it's best warriors to guard the gate.



Stella Cadente said:


> he has the power of 4 gods on his side


.............who are noted to be very fickle.



Stella Cadente said:


> he has powerful allies like Typhus.


Who will eventually start infighting after a while.



Stella Cadente said:


> yet still the best he can do is bimble around like a moron and give the imperium plenty of time to react to his attacks time and time again,


I don't recall this. Abaddon got the drop on the Imperium in the Gothic Sector and completed his objectives and did the same in the 13th.



Endymion said:


> Personally I'm leaning towads Stella's point of view. Honestly if Chaos got their act together they could do so much more, it's just they put an idiot in charge. You can't really claim they're failing because they're outnumbered when you have the remnants of the traitor legions, potentially the most experienced marines in the galaxy (not only that but they're high on chaos), plus hordes of the cultists and daemons. .


Where does it say that Chaos outnumbers the Imperium? Plus the entire Cadian sector is essentially fortified to stop any entry from the Cadian Gate.



Endymion said:


> He doesn't even need to jump out of his massive planet killer space ship to destroy Cadia.


Why would he want to destroy Cadia? He needs it as a jumping point for the Cadian Gate. The only stable route out of the Eye.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> Got anything else to say?


now that we've gone into the horrendously silly madcap area of abby subconsciously leading tyranids...no I really REALLY don't as I see it would be an utter waste of time.


ROT said:


> Quite Contradictory, I'd like to see you explain this one.


thats easy.....ink+paper=black and white


Gree said:


> I don't know. How many has he lost? We certainly don't know anythign about his objectives much. The most information we have on the Black Crusades is the 12th and the 13th. The 12th suceeded in his overall strategic objectives and Chaos won the 13th in the campaign.


12 wasn't really a success, it was all aimed at blackstone fortresses, that was his goal, and for a while he was doing well getting 3, but was (surprise surprise) defeated, ending up running away with 2 which were then used by Typhus.

and 13....well less said about that one the better


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Lol, I was hoping a mad-theory would throw you off. Damn.  

As for the 2nd part, Thats no explaination, because you know i've got you on that one.

Everything people say about Chaos having Potential makes sense.. But i just don't see why everyone thinks Abaddon is an idiot >.< Hes the Warmaster of Chaos, successor to Horus, Proberbly More powerful than Horus, He's clearly incharge for a reason.

I literally can't see for a second how he's a bad leader. If he was as crap as people think, why is he still in charge, The swarms of Chaos, AND the god's must still believe he can complete this, Else they would have just Murdered him.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ROT said:


> As for the 2nd part, Thats no explaination, because you know i've got you on that one.


you really don't, there is a difference between something being black and white, or apples and oranges, and something being written in black and white, or pen and paper, the two have nothing in common in this situation and have nothing to do with anything together here.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> 12 wasn't really a success, it was all aimed at blackstone fortresses, that was his goal, and for a while he was doing well getting 3, but was (surprise surprise) defeated, ending up running away with 2 which were then used by Typhus.


And he got the Blackstones. Even if he did not get them all he got enough for the 13th. That was what the 12th was really all about. Once he got the Blackstones anything else was irevelant.

As for the rest of the Black Crusades. We don't know exactly what happened. We have a map at the back of the 3.5 Codex but we don't even know what Abbadon intended with each once.

Also the Black Crusades are not the same. The 3.5 Codex even says that they range from massive planetary invasions to small raids by elite companies of Black Legionaries.

Unless we get more information about the exact details of Abaddon's Crusades and what he planned, what his objectives where and what forces he faced I can't really say he is a failure.


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Gree said:


> Where does it say that Chaos outnumbers the Imperium? Plus the entire Cadian sector is essentially fortified to stop any entry from the Cadian Gate.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would he want to destroy Cadia? He needs it as a jumping point for the Cadian Gate. The only stable route out of the Eye.


I never said Chaos outnumbers the Imperium, sorry if it read that way.

And to my understanding Abaddon was the one that fired the planet killer at Cadia anyway? So... Either he wanted to destroy it or intended to "miss", or score a glancing hit... Either is possible I guess.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Well, This has been fun, I'm off to sleep now though, i got nothing. 

+rep for being a worthy Adversary :mrgreen: 
I'll head back if i think of anything more, but for now thread can return to it's Original Discussions. X]

./Admits defeat


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## LordRaith (Jun 8, 2010)

Damn guys, getting a little heated in here. Here's my take on things:

Chaos don't seek true victory because it is in their nature to continue the fight with humanity for eternity. Khorne merely seeks the awful violence that comes with eternal battle. He doesn't care for anything but fighting. Likewise, Slaanesh finds perverse pleasure in battle. The endless struggles by mankind are orgasmic to him/her, thus, true victory lies in continued fighting. Tzeentch only cares about plotting, he doesn't plan to an end, just to plan. To throw a wrench in the plans of the Imperium for all time is his only goal. Nurgle's a little different in that he actually doesn't want to see the death of mankind. Nurgle loves life and wants to see it's continued existence so that he can keep bestowing his "gifts" upon it.

The Ruinous Powers aren't incapable, they just have a different idea of victory. They're called chaotic for a reason.

As for Abaddon, I'm pretty sure he's considered one of the worst threats the Imperium has ever seen. Don't quote me on this, but iirc, the timeline in the CSM codex seems to imply that Abby's latest crusade is in it's last leg before it reaches Terra, and that the Emperor is incapable of protecting the Imperium from chaos anymore.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Endymion said:


> And to my understanding Abaddon was the one that fired the planet killer at Cadia anyway? So... Either he wanted to destroy it or intended to "miss", or score a glancing hit... Either is possible I guess.


Did he? I don't recall that from the Crusade at all. The Planet Killer destroyed St'Jostmane's Hope and another planet then it was destroyed by an Astartes boarding assault.

If he wanted to destroy it then why waste time attacking Cadia?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Gree said:


> And he got the Blackstones. Even if he did not get them all he got enough for the 13th. That was what the 12th was really all about. Once he got the Blackstones anything else was irevelant.


he got two and never has the chance to retrieve the rest since they all blew up, and then Typhus suddenly has them (considering how much abby wanted them I doubt he gave them away so freely since he is greedy as hell, so who knows what happened there), they the appear at the 13th and split up to reinforce different places, and nothing further is mentioned about them, even with these two immensely powerful fortresses they play no part in gaining a foothold any further, waisting 2 powerful cards up his sleeve.

if he had combined the power of both at cadia, and destroyed cadia with the planet killer his foothold in the system would of been immense and the resources used to destroy them would of been beyond imagining, giving him time if nothing else, and at the most a VERY powerful position in imperial space to launch further raids from and recruit from nearby worlds, no matter a commanders goals something like that would be idiotic to give up so easily


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> he got two and never has the chance to retrieve the rest since they all blew up, and then Typhus suddenly has them (considering how much abby wanted them I doubt he gave them away so freely since he is greedy as hell, so who knows what happened there), they the appear at the 13th and split up to reinforce different places, and nothing further is mentioned about them, even with these two immensely powerful fortresses they play no part in gaining a foothold any further, waisting 2 powerful cards up his sleeve.


How where they wasted? If they were sent to reinforce different places then they seemed to do there job. Then I believe Eldrad was able to destroy them before they were used further.



Stella Cadente said:


> if he had combined the power of both at cadia his foothold in the system would of been immense and the resources used to destroy them would of been beyond imagining, giving him time if nothing else.


That however would leave the rest of his forces vulerable to counterattack in the other systems of the Cadian Gate.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

LordRaith said:


> Damn guys, getting a little heated in here.


Nah, this is how i intended it, the best way to make a good discussion is to hack away at people to make them really argue a point, throw some stupid ideas out to make people argue Passionately.

Now it's really getting into a deep discussion :mrgreen:

Which is what i like.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And it's in the fluff section so I'm reading it as it updates- if it gets out of hand I get to come in with my electronic magic marker and change shit :laugh:


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Gree said:


> Did he? I don't recall that from the Crusade at all. The Planet Killer destroyed St'Jostmane's Hope and another planet then it was destroyed by an Astartes boarding assault.
> 
> If he wanted to destroy it then why waste time attacking Cadia?


My bad there, I think I'm thinking of him using a blackstone fortress... I'm pretty sure one of those was used at the Cadian attack.

I guess you've got a point there. :victory:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Gree said:


> That however would leave the rest of his forces vulerable to counterattack in the other systems of the Cadian Gate.


that wouldn't be much of a worry if you hold the eye and main cadian space, even if your other forces are stranded and forced to fight alone, the power holding the eye and cadia would seriously reduce any effective combat force in the entire are, so actually it would be more benefit to have all your eggs in 1 basket in this case as imperial tactics let face it are pretty piss poor, there entire tactical regime is based off WWI books I'd believe.

also you can't have a fluff discussion without it getting heated, its like two commanders from 2 different schools of thought battling for dominance of the battlefield of discussion, and now that blackstones have been mentioned I feel all warm and fuzzy.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> that wouldn't be much of a worry if you hold the eye and main cadian space, even if your other forces are stranded and forced to fight alone,


Are you familar with the phrase ''divide and conquer?'' The Imperium can afford to send renforcements to the Eye. Chaos by it's very nature will eventually splinter apart.



Stella Cadente said:


> the power holding the eye and cadia would seriously reduce any effective combat force in the entire are,


Then the Imperium would still hurl everything they have. And they have an entire Empire to call on. And they will hurl everything they got in order to throw back Abaddon. In fact they even stripped away troops meant to the Tyranids just to go to the Black Crusade.

The Planet Killer and the Blackstones are tough but the Imperium does have the resources to destroy them.



Stella Cadente said:


> so actually it would be more benefit to have all your eggs in 1 basket in this case as imperial tactics let face it are pretty piss poor, there entire tactical regime is based off WWI books I'd believe.


That's pretty unfair to be honest. In Straight Silver the Imperial Guard get sent to a WWI-esque planet and they are marveling at how stupid these people fight wars. The Guard regiment in question (Gaunt's Ghosts) point out how stupid those tactics are. In the Cain books the Vahallan 597th operates very much like a modern mechanised battalion with competent officers for the most part.

The Imperium has it's WWI cannon fodder regiments but it also has it's highly trained and equipped armored brigades, stealthers, stormtroopers, urban fighters, etc, etc.

As for space combat..............all combat in space is pretty much the Age of Sail in Space for factions.



Stella Cadente said:


> also you can't have a fluff discussion without it getting heated, its like two commanders from 2 different schools of thought battling for dominance of the battlefield of discussion


No, people can be polite and courteous even in an argument.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Gree said:


> Are you familar with the phrase ''divide and conquer?'' The Imperium can afford to send renforcements to the Eye. Chaos by it's very nature will eventually splinter apart.


divide and conquer is a common tactic mentioned, but a rare tactic implemented, usually down to the fact that dividing to conquer, usually means you lose.

the organization, timing, resources and command structure to pull off a successful divide and conquer strategy today is still hard enough to do, in the 41st millennium when the majority of commanders are generally pompus rich idiots who bought there rank, or too greedy and focussed on 1 thing to care trying, its a whole new kettle of fish.


Gree said:


> Then the Imperium would still hurl everything they have. And they have an entire Empire to call on. And they will hurl everything they got in order to throw back Abaddon. In fact they even stripped away troops meant to the Tyranids just to go to the Black Crusade.


the imperium may have resources to do so, but even they are finite resources, you start weakening in one area to protect another and someone will take advantage of this, it comes down to divide and conquer again, if abbadon had made his foothold properly and force the imperium to weaken forces in other areas, eventually someone will attack and destroy those weakened areas, the tyranids, perhaps Tau deciding to want more territory, or just Orks seeing a chance for some payback.

then you have to factor allot of imperial commanders and marine chapters have there own agenda, and even in the most dire circumstances have very little interest in helping nevermind where the call for aid comes from or who demands it.

then theres distance, the imperium have forces spread everywhere, now trying to converge on 1 point, without proper organizing each of these forces arrive one after another and it becomes a turkey shoot, and lets face it the imperium is not the most organised force in the galaxy.


Gree said:


> As for space combat..............all combat in space is pretty much the Age of Sail in Space for factions.


the basics are yes, but it only takes 1 ship to realise space is 3D to turn the tide in whichever sides favour

gah almost 1:30, damnit.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> divide and conquer is a common tactic mentioned, but a rare tactic implemented, usually down to the fact that dividing to conquer, usually means you lose


Or if one has greater renforcements (Like with the Imperium) or a place to hold out the enemy (Cadia, the second most heavily fortifed planet in the galaxy) then it would be easy. Abbadon wll get space superiority but Cadia will still have to be taken by a ground invasion if Abbadon wants a good base to control the Cadian Gate.



Stella Cadente said:


> the imperium may have resources to do so, but even they are finite resources, you start weakening in one area to protect another and someone will take advantage of this, it comes down to divide and conquer again, if abbadon had made his foothold properly and force the imperium to weaken forces in other areas, eventually someone will attack and destroy those weakened areas, the tyranids, perhaps Tau deciding to want more territory, or just Orks seeing a chance for some payback.


The Imperium would readily sacrifice those areas in a hearbeat if it meant throwing Abaddon back to the Eye. They consider Chaos to be the greatest threat.

That's eveen mentioned on one of the Tyranid codices. The Tau are a tiny alien Empire (One of the hunderds of minor ones n the background, they just have a codex) and orks are everywhere.



Stella Cadente said:


> then you have to factor allot of imperial commanders and marine chapters have there own agenda, and even in the most dire circumstances have very little interest in helping nevermind where the call for aid comes from or who demands it.


It's Abbadon's Black Crusade, putting aside the forces already forced just to fight at the Eye, the vast majority of Imperials are going to come once the size of the invasion is realized. Most Space Marine Chapters would jump at the chance to fight the largest invasion of traitors ever.



Stella Cadente said:


> then theres distance, the imperium have forces spread everywhere, now trying to converge on 1 point, without proper organizing each of these forces arrive one after another and it becomes a turkey shoot, and lets face it the imperium is not the most organised force in the galaxy.


How will it become a turkey shoot? It will be the Chaos forces being stalled by the Eye and the renfrocements gathered by Segmentum command. The Imperium is not as disorganized as you think they are. There will be mishaps but they can and will organize the fleets to fight effectivly, especially if it's a Black Crusade. I would hardly be suprised if they drew up plans for this sort of thing already. Time it little matter for the Imperium. They will pull out the stops for this one.



Stella Cadente said:


> the basics are yes, but it only takes 1 ship to realise space is 3D to turn the tide in whichever sides favour


But that never happens now does it?


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