# Did the Heresy Kill the II and XI Legions?



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The 'mystery' of the II and XI Legions, in my opinion, have been entirely destroyed by the Heresy... no pun intended. I love the HH books, but by detailing the Heresy without a credible nod to the II or XI, GW has choked off the ability of imaginative players to shoe-horn their own fluff into the background nor provided any reference that would allow the legion to take hold in the post-Heresy game. Thoughts?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

No, it didn't.

At least to my understanding. How do you feel it has been stifled?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I would assume he is referring to the fact that they have been removed from the historical record pre Heresy and alluded to having been purged/exterminated and thus cease to exist even in pre Heresy times. 

With the 'lost' legions having now been fleshed out to having been destroyed pre Heresy there is now less room to explore their fate and 'what if' questions. 

There are still some avenues however if you want a post Heresy 'lost legions' force. Being lost in the warp and spat out in the future for example.

I was never much a fan of the two missing legions to be honest. Their original purpose- to allow players to create their own space marine (or chaos) forces is no longer needed with the sheer number of chapters and foundings expanded upon. You don't need them any more to create your own chapter as was the original purpose. Often when a player did decide to create their own missing legion it was poorly done, with many of them seeming to just want a 40k era primarch. 

So no i don't view the new approach to the II and XI legions as detrimental. Nor is it impossible to create your own force from those legions and explain their presence in 40k.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I still don't think it's as cut and dry as it seems. All we know is that the Wolves have been used to sanction other Astartes before Prospero. For all we know that could have been used against the other 17 Legions. Maybe Angron's World Eaters got out of hand and the Emperor needed to them to smack him around a bit or something like that.

The other two didn't take part in the Heresy, but there's still enough wiggle room to put in pretty much anything you want. As Rems said, with the vaguries of the Warp, anything is possible.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

There's also the possibility that, even sans primarch, the legion itself was not destroyed, and either held in reserve, or shoehorned into another legion we've heard nothing of, etc. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of thought that at least one of the chapters we know nothing about had survivors of one of the unnamed Legion merge with them, creating discontent and pre-empting a fall towards Chaos due to the unrest?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I really don't see how the HH novels have killed the 'mystery' of the two missing Legions. Indeed, I think they've strengthened it. What were they before? A loyalist and traitor Legion wiped from the records for no apparent reason (so people could make up their own). What are they now? Two seperate tragedies, their fates known but unspoken off; possibly the SW were involved in their downfall and possibly some of their members still exist (either in other Legions or as their own force). Which is more mysterious?

And I'll second Rems, the 'missing Leigon as device to create my own Mary-Sue marines' is a bad idea. I have never seen it done well and almost every attempt is used as justification for outright fluff contradictions (female marines) or the introduction of a player-insert Mary Sue as Primarch. I'm of the opinion that we, as players of a creative game, can come up with better stories for our forces.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

The mystery has been added to, although I'm willing to bet that the fate of the missing legions will be shown and used to add to the causes of the heresy (and there for have an effect on the heresy).

The missing legend of the missing legions has also been given a line into current fluff and there for players can still use them. The rumour that surviving astartes were moved into the XIII legion, the legion who provided the bulk of the second founding chapters, is quite a big opening for players to use them as an influence on their homebrew chapters. It also provides a nice basis for speculation for chpaters who hide their true origins and history while remaining codex. After all, just because an astarte, on pain of death, is banned from talking about his original primarch does not mean he will forget his teachings and influence. This would apply even if he has pledged allegiance to a new primarch!


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> The rumour that surviving astartes were moved into the XIII legion, the legion who provided the bulk of the second founding chapters, is quite a big opening for players to use them as an influence on their homebrew chapters.


I like your concept about the UM getting the cast-offs... perhaps a model for the Emperor keeping alive the cast off Astares from the traitor legions.

My original thoughts came after reading another post on wanting to develop one of the lost legions/primarchs and include the Space Wolves into his 40K chapter's personal fluff. He received something of a smackdown for the convoluted way necessary to work together the fluff and it highlighted for me how constrained some of the HH-era myths were becoming with the new novels... like sending a camera crew back to ancient Greece.

Anyway, thanks for the commentary all.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I like your concept about the UM getting the cast-offs... perhaps a model for the Emperor keeping alive the cast off Astares from the traitor legions.
> 
> My original thoughts came after reading another post on wanting to develop one of the lost legions/primarchs and include the Space Wolves into his 40K chapter's personal fluff. He received something of a smackdown for the convoluted way necessary to work together the fluff and it highlighted for me how constrained some of the HH-era myths were becoming with the new novels... like sending a camera crew back to ancient Greece.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the commentary all.


Its not a concept it is cannon. 

1. II and XI where killed well before the HH for unknown reasons
2. SWs killed them
3. The remaining SMs from the II and XI were given to the Ultramarines


All of this has been proven in the HH novels through out the series. There is no "theory" about this stuff. Its why UMs have about 275,000 Space Marines, almost double what the World Bearers, the second largest, have (at 150,000).


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> Its not a concept it is cannon.
> 
> 
> 3. The remaining SMs from the II and XI were given to the Ultramarines


Pretty sure you got that from a line of dialogue in First Heretic, and it's not true, ADB has said that it was only a joke amongst the Astartes.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Worldkiller said:


> Pretty sure you got that from a line of dialogue in First Heretic, and it's not true, ADB has said that it was only a joke amongst the Astartes.


And in another post, here on the forums, he also said that the WB where the second largest Legion at 150k and that UM where the largest. Where exactly did they get all their members and where did all the members from the II and XI went after the Primarchs where assassinated?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

How about the fact they had a whole empire to recruit from rather than just a single world as the other Legions had? The Ultramarines had the resources and infrastructure to support such recruitment. 

Them absorbing the II and XI legions is only rumours and hearsay. ADB has said as much himself. It's a simple rumour amongst the Word Bearers; a legion who dislike the Ultramarines in any case (indeed the Ultramarines seem disliked by many legions), with no shred of evidence. 

As to where all the members of the II and XI legion went; i imagine most died alongside their primarchs.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

But the problem is why were they purged from imperial records? If they had died honorably or merged with another legion then surely they would be remembered, maybe shrouded by time but not purged from the records. Even the traitors are still recorded and they did the worst thing imagineable by the imperials.

What could be so terrible that they were forcibly forgotten for?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Rems said:


> How about the fact they had a whole empire to recruit from rather than just a single world as the other Legions had? The Ultramarines had the resources and infrastructure to support such recruitment.
> 
> Them absorbing the II and XI legions is only rumours and hearsay. ADB has said as much himself. It's a simple rumour amongst the Word Bearers; a legion who dislike the Ultramarines in any case (indeed the Ultramarines seem disliked by many legions), with no shred of evidence.
> 
> As to where all the members of the II and XI legion went; i imagine most died alongside their primarchs.


Or they may possibly have been absorbed into the UM legion. In First Heretic, the deamon said it was baseless conjecture. They had no proof that the UM did take the surviving astartes in, but they also didn't have any proof to the contrary. Anywho, we will never know until it is explained in more detail in later books (if it ever is).


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

One thing that has bugged me is do we even know the Primarchs of the two lost legions were found? There has been no mention of the Primarchs being found by the Emperor. 

If the Primarchs were never found then the Emperor would have had 2 legions worth of marines following him around with no real purpose other than to follow the Emperor. This could lend to the theory of them being absorbed into another larger legion, possibly the Ultras, possibly the Luna Wolves given that the Ultras are the largest and the Luna wolves the longest standing with its Primarch.

SO we always assume that both legions were wiped out but nothing specific has been said/written, and they just as likely could never have came into being if their Primarchs were never found.

Cheers


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> Its not a concept it is cannon.
> 
> 1. II and XI where killed well before the HH for unknown reasons


They suffered unknown tragedies, destruction is insinuated not explicit


djinn24 said:


> 2. SWs killed them


Again insinuated.


djinn24 said:


> 3. The remaining SMs from the II and XI were given to the Ultramarines


The only evidence is that 2 Wordbearers mentioned it as a rumour even they didn't fully believe. Plus the author has come out and said as such.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

tsne16487 said:


> One thing that has bugged me is do we even know the Primarchs of the two lost legions were found? There has been no mention of the Primarchs being found by the Emperor.
> 
> If the Primarchs were never found then the Emperor would have had 2 legions worth of marines following him around with no real purpose other than to follow the Emperor. This could lend to the theory of them being absorbed into another larger legion, possibly the Ultras, possibly the Luna Wolves given that the Ultras are the largest and the Luna wolves the longest standing with its Primarch.
> 
> ...


We do know that the Primarchs were found, their statues (or rather the absence of) are referenced in The Lightning Tower. They are also mentioned in the First Heretic in a conversation between Lorgar and Magnus.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

In Prosbero Burns, the Wolf King pretty much says they killed them. The two people in the books are using character knowledge, player knowledge can figure that the remaining legions swelled the size of the UMs.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> In Prosbero Burns, the Wolf King pretty much says they killed them.


To my knowledge he only talks about 'losing' brothers and that he doesn't want to lose anymore. Losing =/= killing, indeed it suggests exactly the opposite.



> The two people in the books are using character knowledge, player knowledge can figure that the remaining legions swelled the size of the UMs.


Unfortunetly player knowledge doesn't suggest that. The size of the Ultramarines has been credited to their large recruitment base and excellent training logistics in many sources. Further other characters, in the same passage, call the statement into question. It's a rumour, discussed and dismissed as a rumour, not fact.


It's certainly possible that the SW killed all but a few members of these Legions and the rest joined the Ultramarines, however none of these things are directly stated in canon which is what Baron was saying.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> To my knowledge he only talks about 'losing' brothers and that he doesn't want to lose anymore. Losing =/= killing, indeed it suggests exactly the opposite.


I imagine he's refering more to the Wolf Kings quote about Prospero not being the first time a Legion had been sanctioned, and the tone of the novel of course implies heavily, very, very heavily that the VI Legion would have carried out that act. And in The Outcast Dead, one character states that after Magnus actions the VI Legion will be unleashed again. 

So yes, it may not have been outright, 100% stated that the Vlka Fenryka sanctioned one of the Unknown Legions, its pretty much beyond all doubt that they did.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnus also whilst inb conversation with I think Lorgar mentioned the missing legions and he stated that they had all taken an oath to never speak of the fate of the legions, we know that prospero wasn't the first time the wolves were unleashed (and they took to the task with relish, no doubt, no regret, no conscience) 

Which leads on to the question why? Simple refusial to bow to the emperor? Chaos? Cabal? Alien? Personally I think this is the more interesting question


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Barnster said:


> (and they took to the task with relish, no doubt, no regret, no conscience)


Well Russ showed a good deal of regret that he had to sanction Magnus and his Legion, even pleading with them to just surrender so he wouldn't have to. I wouldn't say Russ and the Wolves carry out a sanction with no remorse or regret, but they simply repress it and carry on, pure, unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. His orders taking precedent over all other wants, desires and feelings.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well Russ showed a good deal of regret that he had to sanction Magnus and his Legion, even pleading with them to just surrender so he wouldn't have to. I wouldn't say Russ and the Wolves carry out a sanction with no remorse or regret, but they simply repress it and carry on, pure, unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. His orders taking precedent over all other wants, desires and feelings.


If it wasn't for Horus and Constantin Valdor, Russ would have brought Magnus before the Emperor. The Emperor told Russ to bring Magnus before him. His orders weren't to go and kill Magnus and destroy his legion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm I still think that the whole thing is a bit contradictory as to whether Russ was ordered to kill Magnus or not. Visions states that Valdor and Horus had a part in changing it to kill and Galaxy in Flames(or is it False Gods?) seems to support this. But the Emperor makes it very clear in A Thousand Sons that there will be no mercy for anyone who defies his edict, and in Prospero Burns it doesn't seem at all as if Russ was told otherwise. That and it just seems so out of character for Russ to have is mind changed from arrest to kill. He is utterly loyal to the Emperor, if the Emperor told him to bring Magnus in alive, then he wouldn't let someone else change those orders.

Again, it all just seems to contradictory and out of place in general.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I think it makes it more interesting than just two unknown chapters you can make up the fluff for yourself. What else were the 2nd founding and all other foundings for if not for that? On the topic of Russ and whether he was ordered to or misdirected to kill Magnus? I expect further fluff from the HH series to uncover that and I think any further conjecture is most likely redundant. Failing that it was Alpharius.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

So where does this idea come from, that Horus somehow changed the Emperors orders to Russ concerning the 1000 sons and Magnus.
I mention it because in Outcast Dead, Magnus appears before the Emperor to warn him of Horus's betrayal, at the moment when Rogal Dorn is organising the then loyalist troops in the Istvaan system, Horus's treason is well known then, and Leman Russ would not be in contact with Horus, also in Prospero Burns Russ is well aware of Horus's agents and the games they are playing.
So how did Horus change orders given to Russ by the Emperor, probably in secret and not to be discussed or disclosed to anyone.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

Horus says so in False Gods but The Outcast Dead messed with the Time line.
Also in Prospero Burns Russ doesn't believe Horus to be a Traitor afaik.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> So yes, it may not have been outright, 100% stated that the Vlka Fenryka sanctioned one of the Unknown Legions, its pretty much beyond all doubt that they did.


Oh I'm not denying that. Djinn24 stated that Russ and the SW had personnally killed two Primarchs, which is not supported. The sanctionings almost certainly happened, the SW were almost certainly involved but we simply don't know how those sanctionings ended and Russ killing his brothers is not really supported.



> But the Emperor makes it very clear in A Thousand Sons that there will be no mercy for anyone who defies his edict, and in Prospero Burns it doesn't seem at all as if Russ was told otherwise.


Remember though that the Emperor has other plans for Magnus, he needs him for the Golden Throne. Being confined there for all eternity doesn't exactly seem like 'mercy' to me.



> That and it just seems so out of character for Russ to have is mind changed from arrest to kill. He is utterly loyal to the Emperor, if the Emperor told him to bring Magnus in alive, then he wouldn't let someone else change those orders.


Unless Horus (the Warmaster and agent of the Emperor's will) and Valdor (the Emperor's personal guardian) told Russ that the Emperor had changed his mind (as in told him they were simply forwarding a message). I don't think Russ would question these two if they told him this, especially given that he and his Legion had been manipulated towards this since the moment of their creation.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Remember though that the Emperor has other plans for Magnus, he needs him for the Golden Throne. Being confined there for all eternity doesn't exactly seem like 'mercy' to me


Though it says the Emperors seemingly limitless willpower is one of the key things holding the gate shut and the beacon strong. If Magnus was doing it against his will, then might have all gone to shit.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Though it says the Emperors seemingly limitless willpower is one of the key things holding the gate shut and the beacon strong. If Magnus was doing it against his will, then might have all gone to shit.


That's certainly possible. However Magnus does seem to accept this role at least somewhat and it only Russ' actions that finally motivate him to fight back (at least in _A Thousand Sons_).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, but i doubt the Emperor would want to chance putting a potential traitor(at least as far as they thought) on such a powerful and important piece of tech


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Though it says the Emperors seemingly limitless willpower is one of the key things holding the gate shut and the beacon strong. If Magnus was doing it against his will, then might have all gone to shit.


The Emperors plans to have Magnus ascend to the Throne were somewhat derailed when the one eyed pillock smashed into the Web Way. 

Before that time I the Emperor planned for Magnus to lead the real invasion and then control it from Earth (being free to leave the Throne as required: to have a piss, for example) Its the reason why Magnus was so gutted when E showed him his vision after his smashed through the front door.:ireful2:


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

I dont think its a stretch of the imagination to believe the wily Horus could have deceived Russ into thinking the Emperor had changed his orders. Photoshopped orders perhaps? And as stated above, in TS Russ didnt know Horus was a traitor (although I seem to remember him mistrusting him).


__One thing that has bugged me is do we even know the Primarchs of the two lost legions were found? There has been no mention of the Primarchs being found by the Emperor.__

I agree, its never explicitly stated they were even found (or I cant remember the reference to it - anyone?). 

In fact, any allegation that the Lost 2 actually were found could be explained away. For example, a plausible story could be:
1) they were never found, but the legions created for them, perhaps due to their directionless leaderless state, started 'causing trouble'. Or similar, for whatever reason. Enter Space Wolves and aforementioned sanctioning (was it specifically stated a Lost Primarch was sanctioned? I dont think so - just that 'sanctioning' took place)
or
2) they were found BUT were lost to the Warp, or not found but it was known they were lost in the Warp. In either case, they were not killed by the SW. Any 'sanctioning' by the SW was on the 2 legions per above.

And what about the existence of their statues in The Lightning Tower? They could just be likenesses, predictions, or even faceless. They were covered - we're not told.

And to answer the question as to WHY the 2 Primarchs were erased from history especially given that the traitors' actions were not:
Would/ could they erase?
A) It would be too difficult to erase reference to the origins of Chaos given Chaos is a living, healthy, rasping presence in the 40th (and in fact it serves the Imperiums purposes to know of the dasterdly deeds of Chaos filth and the allegory of the temptation of Chaos)
B) ...whereas it would have been alot easier to coordinate data erasure in a stable empire-building stage which existed in the 30th.
C) the fact that 2 Primarchs were never found would have made it very easy to erase reference to them - effectively no records to erase!
but Why Erase??
D) having records that the 2 Primarchs were lost to the Warp (if that were the case)potentially due to the actions of the Warp Gods was something the Emperor didnt want anyone to know Pre-Heresy.

Anyway, just some thoughts, happy to be proved wrong.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

All twenty Primarchs were found and reuinted with their legions, with Alpharius being the last, that is known and is fact. So they were definetly found. Lorgar clearly shows sorrow at having lost his brothers, he may be probably one of the nicer primarchs emotionally(initially at least), but i doubt even he would be so saddened to have lost two brothers he never even met or knew anything about.

The two missing legions, might well have been destroyed/erased, before the Remembrancer programme was put into place. With the only records of them existing being military ones, they could potentially be erased with less of a problem. The Horus Heresy on the other hand was simply to massive, it would be impossible to erase all the details and cover it up. The remembrancers by that point were numerous and all over the place, with their various works spread across thousands of worlds. There would just be no way of getting everything about the nine traitor legions.


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