# 40k Daemon tactica



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well I was looking through the forum, and I was shocked to see that I couldn't find one attempt at a comprehensive Daemons tactica. As such even though I am relatively new to playing Daemons (As we all are) I will make an attempt at forming a comprehensive tactic for new Daemon's player. To make things less boring, and repetitive I will discuss the units in the codex according to which God they fall under, rather then standard method of breaking the entire codex's units into troops, heavys ext. 

The planned break down in which I will discuss the units in the codex are as follows. Slaanesh (Complete), Khorn (Complete), Nurgle, Tzeentch, Undivided (including the Daemon princes). Then each Gods units will will be further broken down into the standard categories of HQ, troops, elites, fast attack, Heavys.

Note: If you have advice or suggestions let me know.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

_Slaanesh_

*HQ*

Keeper Of Secrets
Pros: Surprisingly the keeper of secrets is one of the best CC anti MeQ greater daemons in the codex. The reason for this being it has 7 attacks on the charge, one more then even the Bloodthirster. Also don't forget its potential ability to take away one of the opponents 3-4 power fist attacks, which are often the scariest thing a greater daemon will face from a MeQ army in CC. Another plus is that they come stock 50 points cheaper then a Bloodthirster. Meaning it is much easier to justify buying two keepers then two Bloodthirsters, if your going CC heavy. Yet another advantage of the Keeper over the other GD's is its ability to almost always strike first, because of the combined affects of aura of acquaintance and its initiative 10. Also keep in mind with a 4+ inv save, and 4 wounds a keeper of secrets is more then a match for most monstrous HQ's like Carnifex's or Hive Tyranids. Hell even other Greater daemons don't fair to well against a Keeper.

Cons: The only time a Keeper of Secrets is really outshined in CC by any of the other greater daemons is in the rare circumstance that your facing something like a C'tan or Avatar. Since either a great invulnerable save or incredibly higher toughness renders the Keeper of Secrets less then optimum when compared to the hitting power of a Bloodthirster.

Options: 
Transfixing gaze: A relatively cheap yet important upgrade if your facing certain opponents. In affect it allows you to strip a attack from one model in CC. While not typically a game changer it can give the Keeper a advantage when hunting monstrous creatures or holding models like C'tans in CC. Keep in mind it is virtually useless if facing a large unit of dangerous foes like a Ork nobs, or a unit of Khorn berzerkers.

Pevane of Slaanesh: Overpriced for what it does especially since a Keeper has a BS of 4, and can't fleet afterwards. However if you have no slots for heralds it is worth considering. In affect when combined with fleet it gives you the same distance closing power of lash of submission (Although it has a higher failure rate, and no potential to pin).

Demonic gaze: If you don't take Pavane, and you really want to actually use the keepers BS then this is the only alternative. More or less a a medium ranged anti-MeQ attack. It will give the keeper something to do when it DS's in, also its relatively cheap for what it does.

Soporific Musk: The hit and run special rule that you wish was available for Tzeentchian units. However it is not reasonably priced for the few uses it has for a Keeper. Best combined with Daemon gaze or used to escape the few CC you are guaranteed to lose.

Unholy Might: The must have upgrade for a Keeper. For the same price as a CSM plasma gun you suddenly wound most MC on a 3+, which when combined with the high WS and number of attacks on a Keeper it can be a game changer whether you take it or not. 

Instrument of chaos: Not really worth taking if not for its low cost. I mean honestly when dealing with combats with GD's your either going to win combat by 3+ or get destroyed by the few units designed to fight them.

Conclusion: Although not the absolute best CC greater daemons it does outperform the Bloodthirster when fighting the smaller stuff by far, and is 50 points cheaper. Hell all other none named GD's will actually lose CC to a specialized Keeper, and it will still be 25 points cheaper then other GD's. Keep in mind however that a keeper is the second slowest none named GD in the codex. Especially if you actually want to shoot in any given turn (do to the lose of fleet).

Recommendations: There are two builds that make sense for a Keeper. The first is the monstrous creature/hero hunter build which takes the transfixing gaze and unholy might options. Next there is the raider style build using Demonic gaze, and Soporific musk to constantly blast the enemy, and avoid getting bogged down by suicidal marines or cannon fodder (Note: if you feel like spending unnecessary points you can also throw in pavane of Slaanesh since as a MC it can fire both in the same turn, yet lose fleet if you do so). However I find the best build for a keeper is to take no options at all. Since for the low cost of a little more then two marine squads in rhinos you can get two MC's that can spit out 14 strength 6-7 armor ignoring attacks on the charge.

Tactical Advice: Its a GD! As such it will be best used against hard targets or the most valuable ones. You should always try to avoid attacking few units a keeper can't hurt like fast moving vehicles or C'tans. Mind you with more attacks then almost all other GD's it does stand a better chance of hitting fast moving vehicles then say a great unclean one. Often the best use of a keeper is to drop it right into the thick of the enemy formation as part of the initial demonic incursion, or hiding behind cover that blocks LoS near the enemy, if facing a lot of Str6+ guns (Note:Any other GD with wings will do this better). What ever option you take try to get your Keeper into CC as soon as possible, because the relatively low toughness and save of the Keeper means it will die to any decent ranged army before it ever sees CC. Also do to its complete lack of decent ranged attacks you will need to take other units to bust fast moving units like bikes or grav tanks (Note: Same goes for almost all other GD's, and heralds too).


The Masque
Pros: Very little Positive to say about this HQ option. In affect for 100 points you get a all the Slaanesh Demonic gifts, which in all honesty are far better suited for a greater daemon or a normal herald on a chariot then the Masque. Still considering her limited use I suppose soporific musk isn't a waste. More or less the soul purpose of this model is to spam Pavane which she does relatively well do to a decent BS and the ability to target more the one unit a turn with it. Still like all the lesser Slaanesh HQ's she will do little in CC except against the softest targets, hence resigning her to a simple support role. However the most interesting feature of the Masque is that for some reason she has a 3+ inv save which far outshine all the other heralds, and places her survivability rate up there with the nurlgelate heralds. Do to this fact, and the effects of soporific musk she can actually tie up most lesser MeQ characters, just not the units escorting them.

Cons: Will do next to nothing in almost any in CC! Seriously even with her high WS, and IN she on average kill 2 imperial guard on the charge or one marine (Maybe). Do to her lack of hitting power, and the relatively short range pavane. You will need a body guard of at least 15+ models to protect her while she pavanes half the enemy army, which she more then likely will only do once before her unit is either wiped out or in CC. Is not a independent charecter, hence she can't jion a unit! I know what the hell was GW thinking right. In effect this makes her the weakest unit in the entire game since even one unit of marines or gaurd will put two wounds on her at range. 

Options: NA

Conclusion: 
The Masque is more or less a one trick pony, however if you really want to have pavane in your army but don't want to take a mainly Slaaneshy army she is a relatively cheap way to spam pavane. Keep in mind that to her lack of hitting power, options or even decent special rules I would have to say this is about the only reason to take her unless your going all Slaanesh. Also note she is not, I repeat not a IC which = Don't take her ever, since she will only ever get to use pavane once before giving the enemy a free 100 points for vaporizing her.

Recommendations: Na

Tactical advice: 
Not much can be done to make the Masque effective. The only thing I can think of is to either drop her in the initial demonic assault and pavane half the enemy force, or hide her behind LoS blocking terrain till you need a pivotal bout of pavaning.


Harald of Slaanesh

Pros: Unlike the Masque you can actually join these things to units, which is essential since unless your going with the amazing chariot option having them hide in a unit is key. They are also inexpensive, meaning you can include 2 or 3 in a infantry heavy list without breaking the bank. Also they have lots of interesting options like chariot or mount of Slaanesh. Their High WS, IN, and attack stats also mean the few attacks she spits out will both be accurate and almost always strike first.

Cons: It's still just a Daemonette so don't expect her to hurt anything with a save better then 5+. Also do to a incredibly low toughness and save, they will always have to rely on a huge escort to reach the enemy lines. Further more many of her options are overpriced for such a flimsy platform as the herald. Do to the high cost of said upgrades you should have a specific task in mind for the herald before designing your list rather then taking 2-3 options. They also tend to do very little in CC making taking a herald of Slaanesh kinda a idiotic choice considering that the 4-5 Daemonettes you could have bought instead will do so much more. Honestly these things should be 30 points for the defensive and offensive power they have. Hell a single genestealer will kick her ass. Do to all these draw backs they only really serve as a expensive way to boast the hitting power of units of seekers (Sweat god GW release new models for them already) or Daemonettes.

Options:
Transfixing gaze: It's cheap and one of the only upgrades that makes sense on a herald. I say this since daemonettes are often best used to take down the things that even certain GD struggle against like C'tans, Avatars, or Talose's, you know the things that all other Daemons troop can't fight. To bad in almost all other instances its a complete waste since a powerfist or thunderhammer will hurt them no more then a regular assault marine (I know weird isn't it). Oh don't forget its a five point upgrade so don't feel to bad if you never get to use it against its intended targets. Keep in mind that you can stack the effect of transfixing gaze with the one produced by the supporting unit.

Soporific musk: 
Only really useful if you are all alone since the effect doesn't transfer unto the unit (Making it one of the stupidest options in the entire codex). However if you take the Chariot option then this option can actually be useful for hit and run tactics.

Chaos Icon:
Seriously a bad idea to put this on any herald ever, since it more or less makes them even more appealing targets in CC. Honestly I can't thing of why you would ever take this expensive upgrade on a herald over the unit. Hell icon bearing is a task best left to the meat shields of the army like Plaguebearers since unlike Daemonettes you won't lose them in a single round of shooting.

Pavane of Slaanesh:
Everything I said before still applies except that a worse BS makes this a very unreliable, and pathetic range ability that should really only cost 5pts.

Demonic gaze:
Two words BS 3.

Unholy mite:
Would be a far more useful if you had a power weapon, but 5 attacks on the charge at strength 4 really isn't worth the 15 points.

Mount Of Slaanesh:
More or less gives you a super seeker of Slaanesh for 75 points. I would strongly recommend this upgrade if not for the fact that without proper models for seekers its not worth the effort to convert a herald. After all unless you have a unit of 15 in your collection there is really no taking her in the first place.

Now for the best option for Slaanesh in the whole damn codex.

Chariot of Slaanesh:
Holy crap for the same cost of a mount you gain 3 wounds, furious charge, 2 attacks, +1 T, and a 4+ armor save. However the down side is you lose IC status, but in exchange become cavalry and gain furious charge. Mind you if you take this option you really will need to take another herald with the same build and use them more or less like a unit in their own right. Still I love the idea of gaining 14, strengh 5, ws 5 attacks on the charge for 200 points. Oh they also would have 10 wounds between the two of them (Eternal warrior anyone).

Conclusion:
Unfortunately unless you take the chariot option there really is no point in taking a herald of Slaanesh, except to get a extra Transfixing gaze or to fill a HQ slot. Seriously that's all I can say about them.

Recommendations:
Either take the chariot build with unholy mite, or take them on foot/mounted with transfixing gaze. That's all I have to say since almost any other upgrades costs way to much, and do far to little on a herald.

Tactical Advice:
If you don't take the chariot then tactics don't really apply since they will need to stay with their escort unit. Still they can really help by applying a second transfixing gaze to the hard targets the unit is supposed to be hunt hunting like C'tans or Talose's. Still if you do take the chariot option then use them to support combats with others units, which they do very well thanks to a reasonable survivability, and the cavalry movement rules.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

A couple of things I would note, not saying you're doing them but your tactics seem to indicate you can. 

You cannot Fleet and Pavene in the same turn with the Keeper, so it is alway better to run. Pavene can miss, you cannot miss running. Lash of Submission is just massively better than Pavene. 

The Masque is not an IC, so she cannot join a unit making her essentially worthless. No Bodyguard can protect her.

I actually like Keeper of Secrets as an HQ choice, but sadly I have Nid players n my local area making all Greater Daemons worthless. 

Aramoro


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Not bad. But I really would run a spellcheck through your submissions because it's really annoying trying to read a tactica and noticing spelling errors more than what you are actually saying. It also makes it seem more pro. Nothing worse than giving a good piece of advice and people not taking it seriously because of something as silly as spelling.

And ensure you are making yourself clear as Aramoro so wisely comments. 

Otherwise good job. +rep


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Slaanesh

*Troops*

Damonettes

Pros: The absolute best anit-monstrous creature/light MeQ troop in the entire codex. They also happen to be the cheapest Daemons troop besides Nurglings, and since nurglings can't capture objectives they are inferior in many mission. Daemonettes are also the fastest Daemons troops, and are almost always going to strike first. However the most pivotal fact about Daemonettes is they are the ONLY Daemon troops that have the assault grenades effect! Oh don't forget they also count as having defensive grenades which reduces the hitting power of enemy units on the charge. 

Note: on a funny side note Daemonettes will defeat all the other daemon troops in CC (Not by much, but still...). 

Cons: They are bar none the frailest Daemons in the entire Daemons codex. With the toughness of a Guardsmen, and a 5+ inv save they are just a little more survivable then a Eldar guardian. Daemonettes are a little pricey for something that dies so easily to even laz rifle fire. They also tend to do very poorly against any high toughness, high attack infantry, or any assault specialists wearing power armor. Something important to remember when using Damonettes is that they will on average only produce 1 rend for every 2 Daemonettes. Also do to them having rending most enemies will throw huge amount of fire there way, almost as much as what they would throw at Bloodletters.

Options:
Its five bloody points, and will make a huge difference when facing the big stuff. In other words take it every time. 

Chaos Icon:
If you don't have any Plague bearers in your army, you may as well put it on Daemonettes. I mean horrors and Bloodletters are too expensive and too valuable to attach extra aggro to in the form of a icon.

Instrument of chaos:
May as well take it, after all its just another 5 points and may make a difference considering most combats with Daemonettes will be close.

Conclusion:
Use these buggers like you would a weaker form of Genestealer or Harlequin. Namely throw them at MeQ troops or monstrous creatures, and watch em literally tear em to pieces. Just don't expect them to survive past turn 3. Daemonettes are also the closest thing in the codex codex has to a generalized troop. Since there huge attack profile will eat low armor save troops, and rending will allow them to hold their own against MeQ. Just remember to keep them away from CC specialists, or anything that can lay down serious anti infantry fire.

Recommendations:
Take them either in huge groups of twenty or in multiples smaller groups since either method will increase their likely hood of reaching the enemy lines. Also I would strongly recommend always taking the ultra cheap transfixing gaze and instrument options.

Tactical advice.

Either send them in the first wave in multiple small units since they can creep closer to the enemy using there fleet, Or send them in huge waves of twenty after a meat shield force has tied up much of the enemy army (Think Plague bearers, GD, or three DP's). Even though it does vary little to increases there survivability remember to screen them with stronger troops to give them a 4+ cover which will make a difference. Before I forget I must stress once more that these things will rape (Snicker) the big baddies of most armies, stuff like Talosi or Carnifexi will literally disappear under a sea of milky skin when Daemonettes are involved.

Here is some math to back up the statements I have made about Daemonettes.

Vs Tactical marines:
10 woman strong unit produces 40 attacks on the charge. On average 20 will hit. Three marines will die before they can fights, and on average 1-2 more will die from the 4-5 wounds the none rends will cause. At this point the five marines would strike back with two attacks each (If they have bolt pistol/CC weapon build) that's 12 attacks if the Daemonettes only killed 4. Only six of these attacks will hit, and then only 4 will wound after saves you will lose 3-2 Daemonettes. Needless to say this trend continues on. Hence even in the lower estimates Daemonettes will out kill MeQ, even those with 2 attacks each.

Vs Ork Choppa Boys.
Once again a 10 woman strong unit will produce 40 attacks on the charge (I keep giving them the charge because of fleet). Vs Orks you will hit 20 times, and kill three out right from rending, then 2-3 will die from regular wounds. That mean that only 5-4 orks can strike back. These orks will kick out 15 attacks 7-8 of which will hit, and 3-5 will wound do to them not getting furious charge. Now only 3 or so of these wounds will kill, which means you in the end have a superior kill rate of 2+. (Note: I am not including balanced pts count of model, unit champions, or Transfixing gaze because I am trying to demonstrate 1 to 1 unit combats.

Now for the Good stuff:
Vs the Deceiver.
3-4 rends will be inflicted before it can strike. 1-2 of these wounds will get through its save. It will then strike with its 3 attacks (-1 for transfixing gaze). of these 3 attacks 2 will kill Daemonettes. Over the course of the next 3 turns this trend stays more or less intact, till the Deceiver is dead or the Daemonettes are reduced to 3-4 models. Regardless of this fact it is hilarious that a 145 point unit can hold a star god for 3-4 turns, and shave off 3-5 wounds while doing so. Oh, and Daemonettes tend to work well against most of the C'tans servants two (with the exception of scarabs). Keep in mind that the Deciever can intentianally break from CC and the Nightbringer can't be assualted by S3 units. However if your force is mainly Slaanesh they won't have vary many targets besides Daemonettes.


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## fishywinkles (Nov 8, 2009)

Just thought I would point out that it is impossible for daemonettes to hold up a c'tan in close combat. The deceiver can just use misdirect before you get any attacks in or the nightbringer will just etheric tempest due to the daemonettes only being S3.

Other than this its looking really good so far!
k::biggrin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Loving it. I been thinking about Daemons as a army, but they're so fucking weak! I love Slannesh, and this Slannesh love has caught my interest.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Slaanesh

*Elites*

Fiends of Slaanesh

Pros: Take everything you know about Daemonettes and times it by 2. Most of the time these beasts will be wounding on a 2-3+, and with 5 attacks each the few things that they can't wound easily will get rended to death. Also they are considerably more resilient then their little sisters, do to being faster, tougher, and having a extra wound. Fiends also come with hit and run for some reason, which can be useful if the enemy tries to lock them in combat. Speaking about speed, these things can have a maximum charge distance of 24 inches, and a minimum of 19 inches. Remember like all daemons these things have eternal warrior meaning that there really is no difference to these things whether their wounded by a bolter or a demolisher cannon. Oh and their also the cheapest elites choice in the entire codex.

Cons: They still struggle against anything with a 3-2+ armor save. They are also not incredibly resilient with a mere toughness 4 and 5+ inv. For some reason they lost Aura of acquiescence, which greatly limits there hitting power in cover heavy fields. Oh and their [email protected]$ing pewter only models and cost 35 bucks each (depending on where you live), which is a crippling set back considering these things are best used in groups of 5+. Besides the models are also kinda ugly, like most Slaanesh models current and past (I guess the nerds at GW don't understand the meaning of the word alluring/seductive/not ugly). Note: I would recommend taking Bloodcrushers instead if your expecting to face mainly MeQ players.

Options.
Wow, just wow one bloody option for the whole unit (A trend for most elites in the codex).

Unholy Might: May as well take it since it will make 5 of the units attacks wound almost everything on a 2+, and its a steal at 10pts.

Conclusion: 
Although they are hardly a game changer, these things will often make back there points as long as scarier things walk in front of them. Still the lose of the assault grenade effect really hurts the unit, since in even the most generous of combats you will lose 1 fiend before combat do to terrain (which is almost guaranteed in 5th edd). Still they will on average kill what ever they charge as long as you avoid losing 2-3 of em before they see combat. Note: at 30pts each they still are not overly expensive for what they do, so don't feel to bad if a few drop before seeing combat.

Recommendations:
Errrrr take unholy might? Oh and remember to take large units, or if you don't want to take any other elites take multiples small units.

Tactical Advice:
These things although stronger then regular Slaanesh fair are still going to die in droves if they stand out in the open. However unlike daemonettes they may be best held back since they really don't take long to reach the enemy lines, or if you really want to send em in first then plop them behind LoS blocking cover or in 4-3+ cover. The reason being that with their speed they really don't get slowed down much by difficult terrain. Also unlike Daemonettes these things will rape low armor save troops like no ones business, I'm not talking 4-5 dead here I'm talking 7-8 dead. However do to their considerably higher cost I wouldn't recommend sending these beasts against a avatar or C'tan, since every one you lose will drop you damage output considerably.

Oh and here is some math just to make things more clear. (I will be using a unit of 5 for this)

Vs Ork Boys:
A unit of five will on the charge (Which they will almost always get) will produce 30 attacks. Of these 15 will hits, 2-3 of which will rend. Then another 7 wounds will be caused normally. 5-6 of these normal wounds will get through the laughable Orks armor. That means by time the Orks get to strike back they have only 9 attacks to retaliate with. Of these only 4-5 will hit, then only about two will wound, and only 1-2 of these will get through the Fiends inv saves. All in all this equals epic win for the daemon unit.

Vs Marines: (Not the two units are actually the same cost naked)
Ok I'm just going to show this in numbers form.
-Fiends produce 30A = 15 hits = 2-3 rends and 6-7 wounds. 6-7 wounds which after saves = 4-5 dead marines in total. 
-6 Remaining marines produce 12A, 6 hits = 3 wounds which after saves = 2 wounds (Killing one fiend)


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

As a side note always diversify your Fiends by taking Might, it means when you do suffer 2 wounds no one dies as you can spread them between the 2 models. Also if you need something to tear tanks open Fiends are a good shout, at Strength 5 rending 




> *Assaulting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Fiends, Strong Fiend vs Tank*
> 
> ...


Thats a decent chance of doing something against Rear armour 10

Aramoro


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Slaanesh

*Fast Attack* (The weakest slot in the entire codex)

Seekers Of Slaanesh

Pros: Not much can be said that hasn't already been said about Daemonettes. However for 3pts you gain almost double the movement rate on the assault, and a extra attack. Which can go along way when rendings involved.

Cons: Their still Daemonettes meaning being shot at by anything will be fatal. Regardless of this fact the most horrific draw back of this unit is the fact that THERE ARE NO FU&%ING MODELS FOR THEM, and don't even think about buying the older models or converting up proxies, since doing either will cost you 200+ dollars for a serviceable unit of 10+. Oh and you will need a unit of at least 10 since once again they are still Daemonettes.

Options:

Transfixing Gaze:
Once again for five points you gain a noticeable increase in survivability against MC's.

Chaos Icon:
It makes a little more sense to put this on the faster Seekers then the regular Daemonette. However still I would rather avoid making Seekers a even more tempting target.

Instrument of Chaos:
Worth taking for those close combats, especially since once again it only 5 points.

Conclusion:
Wonderful unit that generates even more attacks then their little sisters, and is noticeably faster. Still I can't recommend them do to the fact that they don't actually have available models. Also even though they have a higher rend output then Daemonettes I would still be apprehensive about sending them against stuff that will kill 4-5 of them in a drawn out combat. Especially since you won't ever have more then 1 unit of them do to availibilty.

Recommendations:
If you have a extra 200+ dollars to burn then taking a unit of at least 10 is the bare minimum. Also take Transfixing Gaze when ever you use them.

Tactically advice.
More or less apply the same tactics you would use for Daemonettes. However they are noticeably better at hitting the soft targets do to a minimum charge range of 19 inches. Keep in mind however that a 10 woman unit will put out a extra 10 attacks, which will generate on average 1-3 extra rends.

Ok the math thing is getting a bit tired, but here we go.

Vs Orks Boys.
On the charge they produce 50 attacks, 25 of which hit. Of these 4 will rend, and another 4 will wound normally. After saves you still will inflict at the very least 7 wounds meaning only 3 Orks will get to strike back. They will produce 9 attacks, 4-5 of these will hit. Of these 2-3 will wound after saves this will equal 2 wounds at the most, meaning the Daemonettes win CC by 5+ which will almost guarantee the Orks will break from combat.

*Slaanesh Section Complete*


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

*KHORNE* (Slaaneshe's older angrier brother)

*HQ*

Bloodthirsters 

Pros: There is nothing in the entire 40k system that a Bloodthrister can't hurt. And even though he is a little less effective at fighting massed infantry then a Keeper, they more then make up for do to the increased survivability offered by a 3+ armor save, and WS 10. Bloodthirsters are also tied for fastest GD with the Lord Of Change. Bloodthirsters are also quicker then most of their pray with a I of 6 on the charge. They also do very well against the things that would typically break your armies advance, stuff like avatars, Daemon Princes, Hell even a Barbed Hierodule would be given pause by a Bloodthirster. Bloodthirster can also be made to have the same hitting power as 6 laz cannons on the charge. Note: one advantage the Bloodthirsters has over all other GD's is the ability to instant kill MeQ characters reliably (No the Tzeentchian soul devourer doesn't count). They can fly!

Cons: A properly upgraded Bloodthirster will cost you 275pts. They still strike last when charging into cover, which can really hurt against anything with rending or other MC's. Not really any more resilient against anti MC ranged weapons then any of the other GD's. Only around 2 of its 4 options really make any sense for their cost. Don't do incredibly well vs massed infantry do to not having assault grenades (Strength 7-9 is a waste when stuck in a mass of fearless infantry that you would just as easily kill with strength 6).

Options:
Death Strike: Yah this really seems like a stupid options, since for another 20 pts you get a Fu%$ing plasma pistol.

Blessing of the blood god: Not really incredibly useful against most armies, since the biggest psychic threats to Bloodthirsters are ether passive effect powers like doom, or don't actually wound like gift of chaos. Still its only 5pts so its still worth taking just in case someone has no clue about the Damons codex.

Unholy might: expensive, but worth it for the ability to constantly instant gib MeQ characters, and wound almost everything on a 2+.

Instrument of chaos: Only 5 pts, but still I would not bother since a Bloodthirster has a 3+ armor for fearless inflicted wounds, and the fact it shouldn't be fighting stuff that would cause it not to win combat by 2-3+.

Conclusion: These things where designed for one purpose, to kill the most worthy of enemies. In other words if your wasting this guy fighting 20 man units of Orks or 15 Harlies you deserve the temporary/permanent use of the Bloodthirster that will soon follow. Also without the effects of assault grenades you may want to try, and pick your battles since some infantry may actually beat a Bloodthirster in CC (Rending, Nemesis force weapons). Also do to their high cost you may struggle to include two in most lists since with the recommended upgrades they will cost 550pts. 

Recommendations: take one, and use it to take out the hardest enemy targets. Also I would strongly suggest taking at least the Unholy Might options, and if you can be bothered to do so take the Blessing of the blood God option.

Tactical Advice: They have wings, and are expensive. That means try to drop them behind something the majority of the enemy can't shoot through, because I guarantee the enemy will throw everything and the kitchen sink at a Bloodthirster the second they see it hit the table. Other then this obvious fact I would recommend leaving fighting stuff like massed orks or nobs to other units, since either may actually severally wound or kill a Bloodthirster (Just throw some Daemonettes or the like at them, after all such lowly warriors are below a Bloodthirster's ambition). However if your enemy is bringing Marines you are in flavor country, since a Bloodthirster will butcher everything short of land speeders, and massed terminators (If you lose your Bloodthirster idiotically trying to fight SS/TH Termies. Khorne should shitkick you.)

Skarbrand, The Exiled One (Also know as the angriest bastard ever)

Pros: He is even more fighty then the regular Bloodthirster, because of his extra attack and constant re-rolling to hit. Skarbrand also comes with Breath of chaos, hence making him the shootiest Khorne daemon in the entire codex (Even though he has BS-0 weird).... he also has a instrument of chaos effect, which could help I guess.

Cons: He is 300 points and fights only slightly better then a 270 point Bloodthirster. He can't fly, and no fleet is nothing in comparison, especially since unlike a regular Bloodthirster you may actually want to shoot with him. Also he can actually make certain enemy armies even more dangerous to you. His Rage embodied ability will also make stuff like Carnifexes, and Avatar's able to almost kill him in a single turn of CC.

Conclusion: Damn I hate to see a former forge world powerhouse reduced to this. I mean with the way Khorne units operate in the codex taking Skabrand can actually hurt your army more then help it. After all if the enemy is smart they will hide in cover, which means his ability will actually increase the amount of casualties you suffer before your allowed to hit, sometimes even making a extra 2-3 Bloodletters die before CC. True the 4-6 attacks you eventually will get to make back will be more accurate, but who the hell cares when you could have had a extra 4+ attacks if Skabrand wasn't there. In all honesty I would leave Skarbrand at home in most instances, and just take a regular Bloodthirster instead.

Recommendations. NA

Tactical Advice: Yet another sign of how poorly thought out Skarbrand was is the fact that he does best when leading a army of Slaaneshe's, or Nurgle's lackeys over his own god Khorne's. As such I would ether recommend only taking him if you army is mostly comprised of I6+ assault grenade equipped troops, or if if your facing a army were the bonus to hit will only really help you. Like say against guard or some of the smurf lists. The only other instance I can think of where taking Skarbrand would on average be more beneficial to your army then the enemies is if the enemy is stupid enough to agree to play on a terrain-less table. Still I suppose if your using him solo to break regular MeQ units, his special rule isn't that big of a handy cap, since on average you will be killing 4-5 marines, compared to the extra wound you may suffer in return.

Skulltaker (No, seriously I mean skulls for the skull throne!)

Pros: He causes instant death on a 4+ to wound, and will always be able to do so, since these wounds are rending. He also comes with a 3+ armor save, and constant power weapon effect. Skulltaker also has the blessing of the blood God (hmm must be all the nice white skulls he gives him), and furious charge. He also has a decent amount of attacks and a DP's WS. Taking all this into account the Skulltaker is bar none the best CC harald in the entire codex. He can also be made more resilient with the two options available to him.

Cons: He is 140pts, but still only has 2 wounds with a space marine armor save. Also he has absolutely no ranged ability. Also keep in mind since he is a IC expect any surviving enemy models to target him. Furthermore as with all Khorne's servants he things of assault grenade equivalents are cowardly, but unlike other lesser minions of the blood god he has I5 so you may just want to sit there, and let the enemy charge you instead. 

Conclusion: He is possibly the absolute best choice when fighting MeQ armies, since their is almost nothing in the enemy army he will be wasted against (With maybe the exception of Land Speeders, and SS/TH Terminators or characters). However he is kinda a waste against say IG/Tau or any other GECK troop since his high price tag doesn't equal anymore kills then usual. Also do to his low wound count try to target things with lower initiative then you, and never assault into cover. Still he is worth taking just for the laughs caused if you decapitate the enemies Hive Tyrant or C'tan (I actually had this happen once).

Options.
Juggernaut: Even though you don't get any advantage from the typical iron hide bonus you get from a juggernaut you still pay the herald's price of 35pts ...weird. Still for 35 points you gain a extra S/T/W/A which can really change things about considering he can still lead a regular unit of Bloodletters, do to the insane slowness of juggernauts. Still it is tempting to put him in with a unit of Blood Crushers if not a tad more risky. 


Chariot Of Khorne: For 15 points less then a juggernaut you gain one extra wound, but lose IC status. Still considering how badly the enemy is going to try, and kill the Skulltaker a single extra wound is hardly worth the disadvantage of losing IC status.

Recommendations: I would strongly recommend taking the Juggernaut mount option, even knowing how expensive it is. After all in some instances it can double his survivability rate do to how it gives him 3W, and T5.

Tactical Advice: If your going infantry heavy, and aren't a huge fan of taking a mainly Nurgle force then the Skulltaker is probably the best choice for your obligatory HQ slot. When taking him in your army I would recommend taking the Juggernaut option, and sticking him in a large unit of Bloodletters, over a unit of Bloodcrushers. Other then that I suppose the best use of him would be in the second wave as a sorta hit man, after the bulk of the enemies force are engaged fighting the meat shield units of your army (Plaguebearers, and nurglings). Oh and this should go without saving, but target any unit or model the enemy has that possess 2 or more wounds over rank and file troops.

Herald Of Khorne

Pros: Probably the best none named herald in the entire codex, especially considering MeQ is the most common type of army these days (Weird considering how such soldiers are supposed to be rare too encounter, yet 45%+ of all the factions consist primarily of them, not counting all the different SM codexes). Heralds of Khorne also have the ability to wield up to strength 7 on the charge, which is devastating considering they come base with a power weapon. They are also the second highest resilience of any none named herald, if you take the iron skin or juggernaut option. Khornate heralds also receive a substantial boast when they take the juggernaut option which drastically increase their effectiveness, while allowing them to stay hidden inside units.

Cons: Heralds of Khorne are also the most expensive heralds by 20pts, and will on average cost 105pts each with the necessary upgrades to make them effective. Also like all Khorne units heralds lack assault grenade equivalents making terrain their greatest enemy. Furthermore many of the Khornate options availability to them are redundant or just plain a waste of points ( rending on a single model?).

Conclusion: As mentioned earlier these guys are still your best bet if your taking a infantry spam list, and used properly may actually be more effective then two Bloodthirsters if you take four riding juggernauts. Also unlike all the other none named heralds these guys can actually lay down some hurt with 4 strength 5 power weapon attacks on the charge, which will do a lot more damage then any other herald can muster.

Options: (.....I hate half of the Khorne options)

Fury Of Khorne: When in any given game has a single model with 5 potential rending attacks ever swayed a combat? This is also ignoring the obvious fact that a properly equipped herald would normally wound even T7 models on a 6 anyways. In other words don't take this option unless you really want to waste a extra 10pts. Oh and no your herald does not need more hitting power against tanks, since he shouldn't be targeting tanks in the first place.

Death strike: Its a even worse idea to put this on a herald since your paying 15pts for a BS3 plasma pistol.

Blessing of the Blood God: More or less another point sink since the effect of the blessing don't pass onto the unit, and how force weapons just act like regular PW's against daemons. Still at only 5pts its not the worst choice either.

Iron Hide: Can be a wonderful option if you for some reason don't want to mount him on a juggernaut. Still I would recommend a juggernaut over this option any day.

Chaos Icon: Once again do not put this on the herald ever, do put it on large units of Plaguebearers.

Unholy Might: Now were talking. Nothing spells doom to MeQ players like a strength 5-7 power weapon. Hell its also only 15pts for the upgrade.

Juggernaught: My god talk about hidden potential. Taking one of these things all of the sudden makes a lowly herald into a CSM lord with all the trimmings. I mean damn he has a marine save, 4 attacks base and 3 wounds not to mention he is strength 6-7 on the charge. Hell for less then a chaos lord you get a model that could murder a Chaos Lord in a one to one fight. This is not even taking into acount how he can still hide in 20 man bloodletter squads, and has eternal warrior. This bastard if deployed with a decent Bloodletter squad could butcher a loyalist terminator unit before it it could even land a hit.

Chariot of Khorne: Now unlike other heralds I would not recommend not taking this option. True it is 20 points cheaper then a Juggernaut, but without assault grenades or a unit to hide in I doubt a single T5 4 wound model will last long, especially when the enemy remembers it has a PW.

Recommendations: Simply put either take 1 or 4 of these guys on juggernauts leading large Bloodletter units with or without unholy might, or if you really like the chariot/herald idea take 4 of them leading a infantry heavy Daemons list (also the chariot idea only costs 360pts (Xbox?). 

Tactical Advice: These guys do great against anything with a armor save better then 5+, but will either overkill or be wasted on anything cheaper. Still I would strongly either recommend taking them in large units of Bloodletters astride a juggernaut as a part of the demonic assault, or as a part of the clean up crew in latter turns either riding a chariot or at the head of a unit of Bloodcrushers.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Slaanesh`s angrier older brother!:laugh:

Great job and +rep.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

Right on! I want to build a Nurgle army for a possible Deathguard/Daemons apocalypse army, but know next to nothing about how well they do on the table.

Thanks for the thread!


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Bloodthirster still doesn't want to assault the Nightbringer. Even though the Bloodthirster will probably get the assault and will go first he is still only likely to score one wound on the Nightbringer (assuming Unholy Might), the Nightbringer would score 2 in return (ignoring all saves). Two rounds of assault would might net you 2 wounds on a Nightbringer but would cost you a dead Bloodthirster.

Against Necrons, it is always better to avoid the C'tan and just take down everything else, which the Bloodthirster would excel at.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Styro-J said:


> Bloodthirster still doesn't want to assault the Nightbringer. Even though the Bloodthirster will probably get the assault and will go first he is still only likely to score one wound on the Nightbringer (assuming Unholy Might), the Nightbringer would score 2 in return (ignoring all saves). Two rounds of assault would might net you 2 wounds on a Nightbringer but would cost you a dead Bloodthirster.
> 
> Against Necrons, it is always better to avoid the C'tan and just take down everything else, which the Bloodthirster would excel at.


Still can't even scratch the Monolith though... Bloodthirster is a nice model but is by no means a panacea. Choose your targets wisely.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Six S 9 attacks on the charge can do alright vs a Monolith.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

If you take the upgrade. That would be 4+ to hit, 5+ to glance and 6+ to penetrate. Not a perfect anti-Monolith solution.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Not if its moved 12 inches (not sure if monoliths can do that but should be able to)
1 solitary hit,hmmm not so good
Plus if you dont blow that bad boy to smithereens he is going to hit you very hard next turn

Even half hitting 3
you will get 1 pen/ glance if its a glance ur screwed if its a pen see above

EDIT (already been said)


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

It's better odds than taking down C'tan though.

But yes, you should go for the "Necron" type units first.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

True, skimmers of any types are best left two soul grinders with Tongue. Still I stick by my statements about Bloodthirsters, since they are the only real viable GD for fighting C'tan's, but as always the best policy is to avoid star gods all together.

Note: I apologies for how long this is taking, but I am play testing some of these units as I write the Tactica in order to better understand how they work.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I'd say never take Tongue, it just isn't reliable with that BS. Assaulting a Monolith with a Bloodthirster has better odds of penetration.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

True, but remember if you fail to destroy the monolith, or even succeed in destroying it all his available units surrounding the monolith (they tend to follow the thing after all) will shortly after open fire on you, which will either kill the Bloodthirster or shave of a extra 2 wounds. Getting stuck in with Daemons is key to survival after all, especially since most Daemons have no ranged ability what so ever. Also MC don't get 2d6 armor penetration vs living metal so even a fully upgraded Bloodthirster only hurts a monolith on 5+ which is really sub par considering his chances to hit the monolith are the same as a BS 3 laz cannon.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Bloodthrister can never destroy a Monolith, you do not get your furious charge bonus against living metal. He can only glance it if you take Might. For Deamons only assaulting it with a Soul Grinder Works as t is Strength 10. 

Aramoro


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

nowhere in the living metal rule say something about denying furious charge or any other str modifiers other than the 2d6 so a BT with might can penetrate a Lith on the charge.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Living Metal only protects against armor reduction and extra added D6, Furious Charge still works.

Then again, if all the Necrons are shooting at the Bloodthirster that means the Bloodletters are getting stuck in. Also, the Soul Grinder's Phlegm should be directed at downing Warriors every turn. 

But, lets not derail this tactica too much further. Good work so far!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Living metal says you strike with your 'unagumented strength' what ever that means. I've always taken that to read your actual strength of your weapon, which is 7, or 8 with unholy might. Furious Charge would augment your strength from it's base value. 

Aramoro


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well by your reason then PF would strike at Strength 4. Cant even Glance it. after all the PF modifies your strength twofold. Hmmmm... That just doesnt sound right or make sense. Outdated rule from 4th that doesnt aplly anymore?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It the strength of the weapon that hits the monolith. The base strength of a power fist is Double the weilders strength. So a Space Marine powerfist is Strength 8 base. A Bloodthirster has a big Axe, the base strength of which is his strength. I would say Furious charge is augmenting it's strength from it's base as it's a tempoary bonus. It's very very badly worded and sadly un FAQ'd but I would go for 'unaugmented strength' to mean the basic permament strength of the weapon. 

Aramoro


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Living metal says you strike with your 'unagumented strength' what ever that means. I've always taken that to read your actual strength of your weapon, which is 7, or 8 with unholy might. Furious Charge would augment your strength from it's base value.
> 
> Aramoro


sorry but i cant find it in the living metal rule in pg21 of necron codex, it just talk about Lance similar weapons and Melta/Monstrous 2d6 pen...no words about ''unaugmented strenght''...so unless more references FC does indeed work


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I have just read the words in the Codex, you need to have the reprint of the Necron codex, not the original one. 

Aramoro


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

If that's the case then you would be correct, but that would allow Tank Hunters to work still. (Though that is not really applicable to a Daemon Tactica)


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually they FAQed the powerfist in the necron errata, and it states that you do get the strength bonus.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

As styro-j so visely points out this is beginning to become more than a tad off-topic.
If you disagree on rulings I suggest you ask in the rules section. 
Other than that, good work. But seriously LukeValantine, Khorne is spelt with an E. I don't think the dark gods find you fit to be among their ranks if you don't know this


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would like a focus on Tzeentch next please. Thinking of getting an army of them.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I would like a focus on Tzeentch next please. Thinking of getting an army of them.


Or you know, finish the god he already started.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Ok the Khorne HQ section is finally finished. Now I can move on to the basic Khorne units. Oh and if your wondering the Khorne HQ section is on page two.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

To be clear, as someone that plays both Daemons and Necrons, Living Metal is a big problem to get around. Furious Charge and Tank Hunter don't work because they augment the S of the attacking unit. MCs don't get a second dice for armour penetration. The Strength bonus of the Powerfist is allowed because it is specifically updated in the FAQ/Errata.
For Bloodthirsters it means trying to penetrate Monolith with S8, if you take Unholy Might, +1d6. Glancing is all you can do, and Monoliths can't be killed by glancing hits. S7 Bloodthirsters can't even scratch them.
If you are doing a Khorne army then I would add Soulgrinders, or compromise and add in some Tzeentch and use 'magic' to beat it.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Tank Hunter does not augment S. Just takes your Pen roll, and adds 1. Different effect, same outcome.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Styro-J said:


> Tank Hunter does not augment S. Just takes your Pen roll, and adds 1. Different effect, same outcome.


Still isn't allowed because the Living Metal rule says that you only get unaugmented 'S' + 1d6. Nothing else can be added. The rule is very explicit on that, so you can't try to get around it by arguing the wording of effects. If it is more than base S+1d6 then it isn't allowed.


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

edit: sorry i forgot this is a daemon tactica instead of a monolith rules discussion, deleted post
good job so far, i cant wait to read the nurgle section


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

*Khorne*

*Troops*


Bloodletters

Pros: They are a entire unit of strength 4 power weapon users. They also come stock with furious charge, which means certain death for any enemy foolish enough to wander from cover. They are also a steal at 16 points each, especially in this MeQ heavy world of ours. Oh almost forgot to mention they hit the vast majority of MeQ units on 3+. In summation they are bezerkers minus the power armor and pistols and 1 attack, but plus power weapons.

Cons: This may be getting old hat by now, but it is once again necessary to point out the units sever lack of assault grenades. Also like almost all Khorne units Bloodletters have absolutely no ranged attack meaning they are best left for latter waves after the Nurgle/Teentch daemons have softened up or tied down some of the enemy fire power. Bloodletters are also a huge fire magnet since unlike none intimidating units/models like Nurglings or Dammonettes most enemies will dump huge amounts of the fire power into this scary power weapon wielding unit.

Options:...

Fury of Khorne: Kinda a complete waste once again. The only possible use for this upgrade is to very slightly increase the units damage to tanks. However it really isn't worth it since almost every tank has rear armor 10 meaning on the charge the unit damages tanks on a 5+ anyways.

Chaos Icon: Still better left to Plaguebearers, or even horrors. Still they aren't a bad choice for later wave icon holders.

Instrument of chaos: Its five points, and may come in handy if you decide to take the dicey chance of charging into cover.

Conclusion: Like all units like bloodletters they should be used as a support troop to win drawn out combats or break tough enemy units like terminators. They are not the come all be all troops for Daemons. The main reason for this is their relatively low number of attacks to survivability rate. Also it may be best to avoid wasting them on large units of GeK or anything with a decent Inv save, especially if said target is hiding in cover. Still they are worth taking in any daemons army above 750 points for their intimidation factor alone.(Note: On a weird Side note Damonettes, and Bloodletters are fairly similar in their tactical applications. The only real difference is ones slightly better vs MeQ, and the other is better Vs MeQ)

Recommendations: Either take as small fire magnet units to draw fire away from other potnetially more valuable units in the first wave, or take in large line breaker style formations of 15-20 in later waves. Also take the instrement upgrade for the units, seriously you would be surprised how often this unit may actually just tie combat.

Tactical Advice: It may seem weird, but don't be afraid to run these things right nose to nose with enemies in cover. Doing so may hurt you far less then allowing the enemy another round of shooting before you line up a charge (Trust me in most cases enemies will charge you rather then shoot when they are made aware Bloodletters have furious charge) vs the potential threat a the enemy charge will pose to your Bloodletters. I would also strongly advice holding these guys back, and letting Nurgle units tie down the enemy so you can be guaranteed to get the charge outside of cover. Also as the math bellow illustrates Bloodletters should be used against specific target, and at times may be wasted if used solo against certain units like nobs ect.

Here is some math on the topic:

Bloodletters charging CSM's:
Marines will generate 20 attacks at strength 4. Of these 10 will hit then 5 will wound. Then 3-4 Bloodletters will die. Assuming the worse you will then get to strike with 18 attacks at strength 5 of these 12 will hit leading to 8 marines dieing. In other words VS MeQ in Cover charging is worth the trade of striking last till especially since the loss of 1-2 Bloodletters from bolter-fire could tip the CC in the enemies favor. Still if the enemy is free to rapid fire at you while you set up the charge you can expect only around 7-8 Bloodletters to reach combat, which may actually see the blood letters to lose in either case.

Bloodletters charging Nobs in cover (With choppa build)
A 5 man nob squad will produce 20 attacks, 10 oof which will hit 5 will wound, and only about 1 Bloodletter will make his save, the 6 remaining Bloodletters strike back, ultimately inflicting 6 wounds (If the nobs are under the effect of a boss pole). Hence wining CC by 2. Now if they let the nobs charge them they will strike at the same time. Bloodletters will inflict 5 wounds vs the nobs 5.5 wounds. Meaning getting the charge isn't absolutely necessity in this case. However in either case you will not fair well in either drawn out combat since the nobs will have considerably more attacks left then the Bloodletters in either case.

*Elites*

Bloodcrushers (Bloodletters on crack!)

Pros: There is no none vehicle unit in the game these guys can't hurt on the charge. They also have Power armor stock, and retain all their power weapony goodness. Bloodcrushers also come with a extra W, and attack. When all their advantages over Bloodletters are broken down you are paying 8 points for +St/+T/3+ armor save, but you lose 1 attack compared to the 2 Bloodletters you could buy for 32 points.They are also insanely intimidating to see in large clusters running towards your battle lines.

Cons: THE MODELS ARE FUC%$#G EXPENSIVE. No seriously depending where you live they may cost you up to 150 dollars for 4-5. Also although they are better in almost every way to Bloodletters, they still take a hit for not being able to hold objectives. Bloodcrushers like all Khorne units also lack assault grenades, however this is far less of a concern do to their incredible increase in survivability. Also oddly enough despite being a metal rhino they are as slow as a running human being.

Options: 

Fury of Khorne: less of a waste on these guys then Bloodletters do to them having more attacks, and a higher strength, but still not advisable if your low on points. 

Chaos Icon: The unit is expensive enough so better not.

Instrument of chaos: No real down side to taking it.

Conclusion: They are actually a far more survivable power weapon alternative to regular Bloodletters. Still the increase isn't sufficient enough to justify the 200 dollar price tag for 5 of them. However unlike regular Bloodletters these guys can be used in cheap yet effective units of 1 as distractions in the Daemonic assault.

Recommendations: Do to their cost, and unique stat line you can use these guys as either affordable distraction units, or as small support troops to break drawn out combats. Also I would only really take the instrument option do to their already high cost, to aggro ratio.

Tactical Advice. You can either use them in 4-5 man units like a regular Bloodletter unit. Or you can opt to use them in small units utilizing the aforementioned strategies.

Flesh Hounds Of Khorne

Pros:.......Well their faster then Bloodletters, that's something right? Oh, and they are virtually immune to WOUNDS caused by psychic ATTACKS (If you can't tell I'm venting my anger at how stupid it is that they don't get the save against all forms of psychic powers). Honestly the only cool thing about the unit besides how it looks is the ability to take a super Flesh Hound in the unit.

Cons: They have the exact same stats as a Bloodletter, but have no power weapons. And what do you get for one less point then a good old Bloodletter, immunity to the incredibly rare offensive psychic attack and a faster movement. Now faster movement may be a big deal for most armies, but half your damn force more often then not is dropped right in front of the friggen enemy. I mean would it have been to much to ask to give the damn things fury of Khorne. As it stands these things are all but useless against most MeQ armies. Oh and it goes without saying, but these things suck at there supposed task of hunting down cowards that hide from Khorne's vengeance since a inch of area terrain will make them strike last.

Options....(All two of them)

Fury of Khorne: once again 3 attacks with the potential to rend is a complete waste of point. Hell even more so then crushers or Bloodletters since against most enemies your hitting on 4+.

Karanak, Hound Of Vengeance: Finally the only interesting element of this goofy unit. For 50 points you get a single Hound with 1 extra St/A/WS then all its fellow hell doggies. He also comes with a instrument of chaos (Only way to get it in the unit) and fury of Khorne. On top of all these perks he also gives the unit move throw cover which may actually let you get off the potential charge range of 24 for these buggers.

Conclusion: They are in effect a much weaker, yet fast version of the Bloodletter. Also oddly enough do to this fact they are less versatile then their up rite brethren. I mean with MeQ being very common I would be at a lost to find points to purchase these things over more reliable units. However if you are like me and already have the models don't threat they can be useful if used right. 

Recommendations: Although I love Karanak I am at a loss to why you would pay 50 points for a more powerful Flesh hound when they are best used as a mass assault unit. As such I would keep these things as cheap as possible, and instead of taking any options for them purchase them naked in large hunting packs of 20/15.

Tactical Advice: If you do decide to take flesh hounds take them in large units so you can retain your hitting power Vs MeQ. Also do to their speed you may actually be able to keep them behind LoS blocking terrain while you approach your targets (They also have a low profile making this easier). Either use them to support combats in latter waves, or take them in the demonic assault further back then your regular front line troops. After all 15pts is still allot to lose when you consider they will dies almost as easily as Daemonettes to anti-infantry fire. Also they tend to do only average at damaging tanks meaning their speed often doesn't help them break a MECH list. Another thing to keep in mind is that if your opponent has read the daemons codex they will always try, and generate a 24 inch no mans land to shoot you from even if they have to run their units, so their added speed often is a underwhelming feature of the unit. Still they do almost as well as Bloodletters vs GeK so don't be afraid to take at least one unit to lurk behind your main force.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Note that 4-man is best for Crushers. You can take Fury, Icon and Instrument, and since they're all unique and have two wounds, you can play wound allocation and almost assure that each will have to take a wound before one can die.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Masked Jackal said:


> Note that 4-man is best for Crushers. You can take Fury, Icon and Instrument, and since they're all unique and have two wounds, you can play wound allocation and almost assure that each will have to take a wound before one can die.


This is correct.

The second best way to run Bloodcrushers is to take a unit of three and give them just Fury and an Instrument. It's slightly cheaper both in points and cash and accomplishes much the same thing.

BTW: Just wanted to give the OP mad props for having the resolve to put this thread together. I played with the idea of doing a full 5th edition Chaos Daemons Tactica myself but never had the drive to do it. So far you're doing a pretty damn good job, so have some rep. :good:

Katie D


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

NURGLE (Khorne's younger fatter, smellier brother)

Note: unless your going all massed infantry or a Tzeentch drop force your going to need at least some of Nurgles children in your corner.
*
HQ*

Ku'gath The Plaguefather (Possibly the fattest bastard in none apocalypse warhammer 40k)

Pros: With this guy you get what you pay for. I mean he has the best ranged weapons of any GD in the entire codex, Think weaker Demolisher cannon and your not to far off from what he's capable of. He also is bar none the absolute most reliant thing in the entire codex. I mean he has six T6 feel no pain wounds, backed up by a 4+ In save. Also since their hasn't ever been a model for him you can just give a regular GuO a nice paint job and cram some nurgling on its base and your done. He also is the only daemon that generates new units automatically every turn (Note this can be a double sided sword). He Also is often far more scary in combat then a Bloodthirster, since he spams aura of decay and wounds everything on a 2+ do to noxious touch. Ku'gath also HAS ASSAULT AND DEFENSIVE GRENADES! Ku'gath also has the distinction of being one of the only GD's resilient enough to deep strike right in front of a 1000 point enemy army alone, and survive (if you role average on your saves that is)
Note: On the GW web site they finally change his necrotic missile attack from ordnance to heavy, so its actually fairly accurate since it will on average only scatter 2-3 inches if at all. Oh before I forget the change also means you can use both necrotic missile, and breath of chaos in the same turn.

Cons: He is slow and purposeful, but then again no ones perfect. He also has I2, however considering his resilience this really shouldn't matter. Now for the real bad news. His ability to generate Nurgling bases every turn will actually really hurt you in any kill point games, since it will more or less give the opponent 4-5 very easy to kill 3 wound targets. Also like all named GD's he is fairly expensive for 300 points considering two GuO will add more resilience to your army if your simply using your GD as fire magnets.

Options.? NA

Recommendations: Honestly if you take him, and don't have him in the initial demonic assault you probably shouldn't be playing daemons. I mean he can come down and drop a large AP2 large blast, and if close enough a armor ignoring flamer all in the same turn. 

Conclusion: He is probably the absolute best GD to lead the initial demonic assault, especially if leading a horde of icon bearing Plaguebearers. I mean they either are going to waste almost every AP2-1 gun trying to down him, or better yet waste all their anti infantry weapons trying to accomplish the same ends. Also against almost all enemies he has almost the same offensive power as a Bloodthirster.

Tactical Advice: Remember to deep strike him as close as is safely possible to the enemy lines (Slow and purposeful is a bitch). Also unlike most of the other GD's Ku'gath is almost more deadly at range then he is at CC so don't feel bad if the enemy keeps trying to avoid him since either way you will be killing stuff left and right. Also as stated earlier you really want this guy to come down in the first wave.

Here is some more math:

Ku'Gath Vs Bloodthirster
Bloodthirster will obviously get the charge. Meaning he will get 5 attacks 3-4 of witch will hit, and 3 will wound. Of these 1-2 will get through. Now Kugath strikes back. He will hit 3 times, and wound 3 times. The Bloodthirster will save 1-2 of these wounds. meaning the Bloodtherster will either win or tie combat, however with the lose of the strength from furious charge the next round Ku'gath will either kill or out wound the Bloodthirseter in the next turn. Meaning a GuO just beat down one of the most powerful CC creatures in 40000. 

Note: He also does just as well as a Bloodthirster against MeQ, and does even better then a Bloodthirster against GeK.

Great Unclean One

Pros: 160pts..... really? I mean if this was in any other army, and retained its DS ability it would be at least 200pts. Also for some reason they gave it the ability to wound every none-vehicle in the game on a 2+, meaning everything but C'tans will really feel the hurt in a one to one fight with these things. GoU also the most resilient generic GD in the entire codex with 5 Feel no pain wounds backed up by a 4+ inv save. Their resilience is even more notably considering you will more then likely want to run two of these things in the same army if you take one, unless of course you’re trying to work in Epidemius. Hell add cloud of flies/aura of decay and you will see higher kill rates from a GoU then a Bloodthirster, especially against its intended target GEQ.

Cons: They are slllloooowww and purposeful meaning your best bet is to fart these things out almost on top of the enemy (Within a safe scatter range of course). They also like most GD only really have one ranged weapon, and considering its cost and range you are probably better of not taking it. hmmmm also I guess initiative 2 could be a large disadvantage if you are attacked by either a huge unit of CC specialists or something that ignores In saves?

Options:

Cloud of flies: Ignoring the fact that assault grenade are a complete waste on a In2 model, cloud of flies will increase your survival rate in CC since it is rare that your will get to voluntarily engage the fighty like zerkers or rending units. Furthermore its only 5 points so I would struggle recommend taking it just in case you do get charged by oh say a 20 man ork unit with claw.

Aura of Decay: Expensive, but worth it if you’re playing against GeQ. I mean with 4 attacks it is fairly likely that you either will win CC by only 1-2 or gods forbid you roll horribly, lose CC. People often underestimate the effectiveness of this ability, but consider that if you run 2 models with this upgrade you can generate a two 12" bulbous line that will inflict automatic S2 hits on ever enemy model within. I believe a little math is needed here (Suppose you are in CC with a large unit of guard, on top of the 2-3 wounds you will inflict normally a further 2-4 will die from the GoU putrid fumes).

Breath of Chaos: Normally I would recommend it, but considering the best feature of a GoU is its low cost I struggle to find a reason to put such a short range weapon on such a slow platform.

Unholy Might: I repeat it already wounds everything on a 2+! (Also it’s a MC so the normally benefits of a higher strength vs. armour is negligible)

Instrument of chaos: It’s five points, and like most MC's with a low # of attacks it could really use the help in case your roll badly....and its only 5pts.

Recommendations: Take them either naked in the demonic assault, or with the aura of decay/Cloud of flies in the demonic assault.

Conclusion: Unless your going mono-god or infantry spam I say these obese fire magnets are a must. After all one of the greatest disadvantages of the other GD's is their weakness to massed high-medium strength anti infantry fire, something the GuO has little concern of. 

Tactical Advice: I would definitely recommend taking two of these as body guards for the icon bearing units in the demonic assault, since if you land close enough to the enemy lines most of their deadliest weapons will be directed against them instead of their little friends. Also even though they are slow and purposeful the enemy will either have to decide to use their shooting phase to run away which will eventually end with you catching them either eventually reach the fleeing units or will absorb insane amounts of fire while you more killy stuff marches behind their jiggling green bulk. Also never hold these things back or deploy them behind cover, since doing either completely plays to the models weaknesses and not its strength.

Herald Of Nurgle: (The absolute worse herald in the damn codex)

Pros:..... It’s as resilient as a regular Plaguebearer? Seriously though it can take some reasonably effective upgrades, and I suppose you could give it certain combinations of upgrades to make it effective. Still they can be effective at holding stuff in CC or adding 1-2 wounds to your CC rez.

Cons: Well firstly even with all possible upgrades these things lack the killing potential of any of the other heralds Secondly they are a complete waste of a HQ unless you want to spam aura of decays, since almost every other herald, will or can in some way noticeably increase the effectiveness of their specific units, something the plague bearer struggles to do. Thirdly they are actually one of the more expensive heralds, do to how unlike any of the others you will feel the need to take at least 15-30 pts of upgrades to make them actually useful. Fourthly do to their vary nature any normal herald stat increase is a complete waste except for its 1 higher wound, after all in every possible case you will be better off with the 3 plague bearers you could have bough instead.

Options:

Noxious touch:..........It has 2 bloody attacks what the hell is wounding on a 2+ going to do with I3 and WS4.

Chaos Icon: Don't be daft, put the bloody thing on the plague bearers he's with not the target able HQ.

Cloud of Flies: Still not sure if this spills over to the unit he leads so it is best to leave this one at home even if it is 5pts. (My god can you imagine one of these things running solo, it would be about as harmful against most enemies as a bag of kittens)

Aura of Decay: Yes so now we come to the only sensible option to take for the units. After all there are very few armies that would welcome being trapped near 4 heralds with this upgrade. Hell even 2 in range would kill 5-6 GEQ from just standing within 6 inches of the things. Also for 15pts I can't thing of any good reason not to take the only decent thing about generic heralds of Nurgle.

Breath of chaos: really? Seriously unless you’re running mono-god Nurlge your better off just spending the points on buying another Flamer of Tzeentch (Which by the way all armies should have at least 1 unit of)

Unholy might: POSOISONED ATTACKS! If you really want to hurt stuff more reliably just take noxious touch.

Palanquin of Nurgle: If you insist on taking a generic Nurlge herald giving them one of these is not a bad idea, especially if you also take noxious touch or aura of decay.

Recommendations: Their really is only one sensible build for these things, and that is to take 2-4 of them equipped with aura of decay and stick em in a large unit of plaguebearers. Also if you have the points palanquins will noticeably increase their resilience. 

Conclusion: Like I said earlier there are far better uses for your HQ slots then these train wrecks. I mean would it have been too much to ask to bump up there cost and give them PW's. As its stands their a one trick pony with them only really coming into their own when used in large numbers to spam aura of decay.

Tactical Advice: I really don't no how you would use these things besides as a glorified unit upgrade that spams a str2 hit on every enemy within 6", hell even the regular advice about using them to eat up your mandatory HQ slot is inadequate since Epidemius will do so much more for a Nurgle army. Still if you do use them try to get them stuck in with softer units so aura can dissolve them, or better yet if you really wanted to you could deploy them in such a way to make a potential nearly 20" not go zone for GEQ armies. (Actually its general one use nature is fairly similar to the Herald of Slaanesh minus the chariot option.

Epidemius

Pros: He single handedly makes mono-nurgle lists practical. Mind you the both offered don't really get good till you rack up 10 kills, but this isn't really that hard if you take some key units. Other then this however he is more or less just a Herald of nurgle on a palanquin with flies, and aura of decay. Still he hardly breaks the bank at 110pts meaning your only really paying around 25pts for the effect of tally.

Cons: Every enemy model on the board will be trying to off him at every chance so be sure he is well out of enemy range. Also do to his little problem with enemy target priority he will have to be hid in at least a 15-20 model unit of plague bearers who will be hiding on the opposite side of the board behind/in heavy cover. Also do to the nature of tally you will have to include him in your initial demonic assault or miss out on some of the incredibly important early round kills (If he even deep strikes in before you loos half your army. Furthermore he really isn't a good choice for a multi god army since its doubtful his tally will get past 10 with most of the kills going to more dangerous units.

Options: NA

Recommendations: A)Take him in the demonic assault. B) Deep strike him well out of harms way. C) Include a sizable bodyguard unit for him to hide in.

Conclusion: Not really a good choice for a rainbow daemons list, but damn nice for the nurgle fan boys out their. Still he really can be a huge blessing to a nurgle heavy list, where you will at least rack up 10-15 kills by turn 3. However don't risk losing him in CC ever, unless he is fighting guard or his plaguebearer body guard unit is rushing a objective late game.

Tactical advice: You really have to design your list around using Epidimius more so then any other HQ choice in the daemon codex. Be sure to take either Ku'gath or a great unclean one since you really need the extra nurglate killing power, also for the same reason you really need take lay off the soul grinders in favor of some winged nurgle DPs. Other then these key selection fact you really need to follow some key ideas. Firstly never deploy him near the enemy lines. Also Keep in mind if Epidemius dies you lose the tallies bonuses so keep him safe no matter what.


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## Forty Three (Jun 20, 2008)

I would disagree with your assessment on khorne dogs - err, flesh hounds =). yes, they don't get power weapons like the bloodletters do, but if you look at it more objectively, the only way to reasonably discount a decently cheap unit which has 3 S5 attacks on the charge is if you compare it with a unit with power weapons. I'd say that the speed is MUCH more valuable than the power weapons for the purpose of this unit. As I've said elsewhere, daemons are spoiled for anti-infantry units - if you're facing a bunch of MEq on foot you're going to have a field day no matter what. The reality is though that you will not be facing a bunch of MEq on foot - you'll be facing marines on rhinos, CSM on rhinos, Eldar on Serpents, etc etc etc. This means that all the power weapons of the letters mean jackshit when you can't open up the tanks, and to open up the tanks you have to catch them. This is also the reason why fiends are better than bloodcrushers. The speed is vital. Furthermore, you don't get to deepstrike in front of the opponent and survive, so the speed makes them much more easy to deepstrike in as you know you'll be able to get into combat on the next turn so you can drop them in cover or out of LOS.

so in short, flesh hounds are cheaper, faster, and more survivable than bloodletters, and they will both be killing just as well. If you need to charge a bunch of termies, use a different unit. The only thing you lose is the scoring part, but really, if you're trying to score objectives with anything else than plaguebearers, you're doing it wrong =P

43

edit: forgot to mention that people will generally shoot three kinds of shit out of a whole unit with power weapons, but they won't at a unit without, even though the hounds will be more threatening in the majority of situations


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Just thought I would inform those reading this Tactica about a few features that are being added later. Firstly after the Tactica is finished I will right a brief section at the end dedicated to the few overarching strategies I have noticed that work with daemons. Also coming in the near future will be an attempt to form a explanation of the metaphysics of the warp.


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## Chumbalaya (May 17, 2010)

I'm gonna chew through this later, but now I will offer my own Daemon guide I wrote a month ago.
Chumby's Definitive Daemon Discourse


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## Forty Three (Jun 20, 2008)

Chumbalaya said:


> I'm gonna chew through this later, but now I will offer my own Daemon guide I wrote a month ago.
> Chumby's Definitive Daemon Discourse


AHHH!, zombYs everywhere

*hides*


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