# Crowe and monkey weaponsmith ?



## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

Does anyone know a full background on this castellion crowe and jakero Monkey weaponsmith ? becouse I just saw these models today 
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160015a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140066a


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, Jokaero were created by the Old Ones and are incredibly adept at crafting technology. They produce the digital weapons that you sometimes see Inquisitors or rich nobles use; you know, the fancy rings that suddenly shoot lasers or bursts of flame.

As for Crowe, I stopped reading at "Mat Ward says".


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## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

oh I see that explains everthing i also see im not the only one who posted this either lol

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84856


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Well, Jokaero were created by the Old Ones and are incredibly adept at crafting technology. They produce the digital weapons that you sometimes see Inquisitors or rich nobles use; you know, the fancy rings that suddenly shoot lasers or bursts of flame.
> 
> As for Crowe, I stopped reading at "Mat Ward says".


Crowe actually has some really cool fluff. He's the Brotherhood Champion of the Purifiers, and is the bearer of a Deamon weapon. His reasoning for bearing the deamon weapon is that it is not able to be destroyed by the crafts of men. The deamon that is bound within the blade is so powerful that it calls to followers of Chaos so they know the location of the blade, so storing it somewhere is out of the question. The blade is kept with him so he can prevent others from taking it and causing untold destruction with the blade.

He now spends his life hearing the whispers of the blades deamon in his ear, asking for release. He suffers with this to keep the blade from less pure hands for the rest of his life.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The Jokaero are an enigma to the Inquisition (this is the old RT fluff, so it might have evolved in the new 'dex). Noone can agree wether they are actually sentient or not, even though they seem to be able to make all sorts of incredibly advanced tech from bits and pieces. Even keeping them locked-up is almost impossible as they can easily cobble together a working teleporter from seeming nothing. Some say they should be destroyed, whereas others remark on how useful the digital weapons they make are.
In the first book of the _Inquisition War_, Draco has a Jokaero surveillance device. It is made of about a hundred mechanical bees/flies that transmit their data back to a mirror that is controlled psychically.
The Jokaero seem to be happy to just lounge around in their groups, remarkably like the Orang-utans they look like, their tech-skill being something of an odd survival mechanism.

GFP


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, the Jokero sounds really badass, seeing as they can pack anything from a multi-melta to a Lascanon in their finger. :shok:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Like the Jokaero fluff and the mini is quite sweet. Crowe on the other hand...

Fucking hell... a GK carrying a deamon weapon... just shoot me now - the justification is shit. GK's don't work with Radicals. Period. They hunt them down, burn them and they erase their records. One of the hallmarks of the radicals is that they use Deamon Weapons and now there's a GK who uses one, a Champion no less... I bet any Relictors players are scratching their heads in confusion. Pity because the mini is quite nice.

And I thought the fluff for GK GM "I live in the warp and *** **** any deamon who comes near me" was a joke. Can't wait to see what they come up with next in breaking established conventions.

Like the monkey machinest though.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It does strike me as a little odd. I know that the GK have never fallen to Chaos, due to being devout and pure and all that stuff. But surely even a GK wouldn't be stupid enough to put himself in the position of being permanently tempted?
It's asking for trouble.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The crafts of Man, eh? 

Why not cast the sword into a star or some other equally lethal thing?

If the Traitor Legions and Chaos Warbands follow the sword into there ... wouldn't it solve this whole Heresy issue?


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh wait your looking for background stuff.... I have no idea where there lore is....


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

sounds like maybe the GK are using Crowe's daemonsword as bait for chaos followers maybe? 

the jokaero mini is a bit underwhelming


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The grey knights feared that casting it into space, or a sun, would eventually allow the followers of Chaos to gain ownership of the sword. 

If you're wondering how it would be possible remember that we are in a universe where magic works, deamons exist, and the Eldar/Dark Eldar have technology so advanced it may as well be magic. Somebody would find a way to get the blade.

Locking the blade away is risky as well, as it could corrupt the minds of it's guardians. I would assume the Grey Knights leave chapter Serfs to guard their FM on titan, as they must be all over the galaxy to defend mankind. The serfs would be easily swayed by the Deamon in the sword.

The safest place for the blade to be is in the hands of a Grey Knight. It is the only viable option.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The outrage over the GK using, or being around those who use, Sorcery is a bit misplaced, in my opinion. All being Psykers, fighting Daemons and the Daemonic, being around those who collate data on Daemons and their summoning, the Grimoires they carry, knowing the history and signs of the Daemon; how could it be possible for them not to be around Sorcery some appreciable amount of the time?
Look at Inquisitors. Even the most Puritan Monodominant would look like a total Heretic to the avarage Imperial citizen, purely because of the knowledge they hold and maybe their psychic powers. With the basis of the GK being Malcador, a person who was the closest confidant of the greatest Sorcerer Humsnity has ever known and a noted Psyker himself, how could Sorcery not be built-in to the GK and their methods? Throw in the Human Inquisitors and you have a group of people who have rewritten the definition of what Sorcery and psykery are.
I always look at progressing Codicies as an evolution of the information we are allowed to have as players. The first 'dex gives us the surface layers of how things are and work. Next 'dex we get to see deeper into the organisation and the tools at its disposal, as well as being told more about its history and goals. As we go on, so things may be turned on their head. Look at the biology of the cell we get told about in school. At one level it consists of cell wall, cytoplasm and nucleus. Next level up is the DNA and RNA and possibly the mitochondria. Next level up we get the info on the intricate cellular machinery that packs what we were told was empty cytoplasm. It's an evolution of info and viewpoint that expands what we know and how we view things. It would be incredibly dull if new a new 'dex didn't throw us some curve balls.

GFP


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The outrage over the GK using, or being around those who use, Sorcery is a bit misplaced, in my opinion. All being Psykers, fighting Daemons and the Daemonic, being around those who collate data on Daemons and their summoning, the Grimoires they carry, knowing the history and signs of the Daemon; how could it be possible for them not to be around Sorcery some appreciable amount of the time?


It's not the psykers that people are protesting it's the use of DAEMON-weapons, as in a weapon literally powered by a deamon. 



> Look at Inquisitors. Even the most Puritan Monodominant would look like a total Heretic to the avarage Imperial citizen, purely because of the knowledge they hold and maybe their psychic powers.


It's not about the knowledge they have. To fight the daemon you must know the daemon, I accept that. But what you can't do (without becoming a Radical and thus not a proper GK) is *use* a daemon. That is where puritans have always drawn the line and up until this point the GK were most definetly puritans.



> I always look at progressing Codicies as an evolution of the information we are allowed to have as players. The first 'dex gives us the surface layers of how things are and work. Next 'dex we get to see deeper into the organisation and the tools at its disposal, as well as being told more about its history and goals. As we go on, so things may be turned on their head. Look at the biology of the cell we get told about in school.


Your analogy is a poor one. In school our knowledge is expanded upon you take things you already knew about and define them in greater detail. This is not the expansion of previous knowledge. This is the re-writting of that knowledge. We were told thta GK were pure of soul and purpose and would not accept the radical. An expansion of that would be how they maintain their putiry and how they deal with radicals. What we are instead given is a contradiction where we are told "Turns out, not only do the GK accept radicals, they *are* radicals. Bet you didn't see that one coming." 

Which leads (sort of, not really but go with it anyway) to the thing I like least about the new GK fluff. The idea behind the Purifiers, it goes like this. "So the GKs are pure right? Not a single one has ever fallen to Chaos and they can resist the temptations of daemons with ease; that's just what they do. But you see these guys? They're so badass that they're even *more* pure. Yah. So pure that they also haven't fallen and can resist daemonic temptation. Yah. Suck on that regular GKs." Does that even begin to make sense? How can you be more pure that pure? Its black or white, 1 or 0, theres no middle ground on a thing like purity. You are either pure (which all GKs are) or you are not.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

You'd think that they would just drop it off near some dead world, call exterminatus on it (again), and if its still there somehow....just use it as a butter knife or something?


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I think it would have been better (from a fluff point of view) if Crowe carried the sword but never used it. Could have made for some interesting rules about it as well like increasing his number of attacks or strength.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Catpain Rich said:


> I think it would have been better (from a fluff point of view) if Crowe carried the sword but never used it. Could have made for some interesting rules about it as well like increasing his number of attacks or strength.


which is basically what he does. The weapon isn't a force weapon or power weapon, it doesn't add to his strength and it has no effect beyond being a CCW. 

The blades anger at being held, and unused, by it's enemy causes the opposing models to gain furious charge and re-roll to hit rolls.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

maybe the GK only use the sword to lure chaos followers into traps 
does Crowe actually wield the sword in combat?
...I thought he only safeguards it


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> maybe the GK only use the sword to lure chaos followers into traps
> does Crowe actually wield the sword in combat?
> ...I thought he only safeguards it


He wields the blade, just doesn't use it's powers. His combat rules state it is a CCW. For all intents and purposes it's like he's using big combat knife.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

When it comes to Crowe wielding a Daemonweapon, I believe this shows the intense pragmatism of the Imperium. 
Firstly, they can't simply destroy it. I imagine if dumping it into a star has occurred to us, it will have occurred, and be in the power of, the Ordo Malleus. Even firing it into a star is not keeping it safe as a sufficiently powerful Daemon would be able to survive even these conditions and reclaim it.
Secondly, they can't leave it in one place. The weapon draws those loyal to Chaos to it. Even in the deepest vaults, the resulting army that will eventually break through as it swells with mortals and Daemons alike. If the Imperium wanted to take such a risk, where would they put it? Titan, Terra? Well done, you've just made these places even more worth attacking as retrieving such a powerful artifact _and_ taking out something so important to the Imperium might eveen tempt Abaddon himself.
Thirdly, Crowe is basically the last option and makes a lot of sense. As a personal guard you have one of the loyalest, most devout, most faithful and purest souls in the Imperium, someone who can resist the blandishments of the weapon. He's also a warrior almost without equal which will stop anyone taking it from him. He also constantly moves around; yes, he goes to places where there are many Daemons, but he is with his brethren and well supported. The foe may 'feel' the presence of the weapo and fight harder, but a larger force cannot be prepared in advance. Crowe wielding it is the best option in a very bare selection.
As for my analogy, it's actually rather good. If GW released C:The Cell, what I suggested would happen. The changes we learn about in real life echo the way successive Codicies expand our view.
'The cell is simple but does loads of good stuff. Just 3 components? Wow!'
'What, there's supposed to be _meters_ of stuff in the middle and tiny powerplants? ridiculous!'
'God, have you seen how they've ruined it now? The cell used to be this amazing and simple thing, now it's supposed to be full of tiny machinery and scaffolding, who let's them write this crap? Retcon, retcon!'
We now have a more complex and nuanced view of the GK, now; god forbid it would go beyond what was written before and evolve their background and show them in a new, and rather disquieting, light. Do as I say, not as I do? That's the Imperium right there.

GFP


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Secondly, they can't leave it in one place. The weapon draws those loyal to Chaos to it. Even in the deepest vaults, the resulting army that will eventually break through as it swells with mortals and Daemons alike. If the Imperium wanted to take such a risk, where would they put it? Titan, Terra? Well done, you've just made these places even more worth attacking as retrieving such a powerful artifact _and_ taking out something so important to the Imperium might eveen tempt Abaddon himself.


That's completely illogical. Titan and Terra are far more important targets than any daemon weapon. The reason they haven't been taken is because doing so is beyond the power of the Chaos forces, not because they don't want to. Terra is the single most defended location in the entire Imperium nothing, but nothing, can take it from Humanity as long as the Imperium exists. 

And all that's leaving out the fact that Abaddon can't physically get to Terra without breaching the Cadian Gate (which he is working on). Unless the sword has the power to pull all of the Chaos forces through its own little warp rift then Terra will remain perfectly safe (and even if it could, its survival is likely) and if it can do that, then it doesn't matter how kickass Crowe is cause that many traitors will pwn some serious face.



> Thirdly, Crowe is basically the last option and makes a lot of sense. As a personal guard you have one of the loyalest, most devout, most faithful and purest souls in the Imperium, someone who can resist the blandishments of the weapon. He's also a warrior almost without equal which will stop anyone taking it from him. He also constantly moves around; yes, he goes to places where there are many Daemons, but he is with his brethren and well supported. The foe may 'feel' the presence of the weapo and fight harder, but a larger force cannot be prepared in advance. Crowe wielding it is the best option in a very bare selection.


Three things.
1) Crowe is no more pure than any other GK (as there is only pure or not pure). 
2) Crowe is a talented fighter, but do you actually think he could stand up to the full might of killers like Kharn, Abaddon or Lucius (speaking of which, if Crowe fought Lucius that's just a lose-lose)?
3) Making the sword mobile is actually makes it far more vulnerable. It cannot be properly defended and its ridiculously easy to trap a GK. You know exactly what to do to bring him to you, then you simply spring your trap and you have them on your turf and your terms. Combined with the extra fury provided by the sword and Crowes not walking away.



> As for my analogy, it's actually rather good. If GW released C:The Cell, what I suggested would happen. The changes we learn about in real life echo the way successive Codicies expand our view.
> 'The cell is simple but does loads of good stuff. Just 3 components? Wow!'
> 'What, there's supposed to be _meters_ of stuff in the middle and tiny powerplants? ridiculous!'
> 'God, have you seen how they've ruined it now? The cell used to be this amazing and simple thing, now it's supposed to be full of tiny machinery and scaffolding, who let's them write this crap? Retcon, retcon!'
> We now have a more complex and nuanced view of the GK, now; god forbid it would go beyond what was written before and evolve their background and show them in a new, and rather disquieting, light. Do as I say, not as I do? That's the Imperium right there.


See the reason your analogy falls about is because of statements like "for the purpose of this course" or "you'll learn more about these latter". In other words teachers (at least decent ones) let you know that they're not telling you everything. Whereas a Codex is presented in absolutes. The GK do not tolerate radicals. This is an absolute statement. Changing it to: "the GK themselves are in fact radicals" is not expanding on previous knowledge. It is completely contradicting that knowledge. If GW had said "The GK generally don't tolerate radicals but we'll talk more about this in the next codex" and then gone on to say "Remember last codex when we talked about radicals? Well in times of absolute necessity the GK will not only tolerate radicals but engage in radical actions themselves." This is an expansion on previous knowledge, done in the manner it would be in school. And I would not have the slightest problem with this.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Three things.
> 1) Crowe is no more pure than any other GK (as there is only pure or not pure).
> 2) Crowe is a talented fighter, but do you actually think he could stand up to the full might of killers like Kharn, Abaddon or Lucius (speaking of which, if Crowe fought Lucius that's just a lose-lose)?
> 3) Making the sword mobile is actually makes it far more vulnerable. It cannot be properly defended and its ridiculously easy to trap a GK. You know exactly what to do to bring him to you, then you simply spring your trap and you have them on your turf and your terms. Combined with the extra fury provided by the sword and Crowes not walking away.


Unless, of course, Draigo turns up. He could Kill all of the above with his eyes closed, he's my hero!


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## steampunktau (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm a little surprised that the Imperium believes that allowing him to use it in combat against chaos is so exceedingly beneficial that they're willing to risk him being killed in combat and having the sword taken. Is his presence on the battlefield really powerful enough to risk it?

All it takes is for him to be wandering past a webway tunnel exit or something and for the DE to drop a psykernuke or whatever on top of him.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The teacher I had told us what we needed to know for that particular level of education- simple cells for some years, more complex for the next level, more complex still for the next as telling us that things weren't as we were being told was pointlessly confusing. Terry Pratchett characterised education as varying levels of 'lies to children'; we get told things are a certain way at a particular level of education/age, because it helps us to grasp the basics before we go to the next level and the teachet says, 'you know how we said x? Well really it's x+y.' This was my experience exactly. However, the specifics don't really matter, the point being that we all know that a new 'dex will expand on what we have already been told, wasn't the expansion of the fluff what many were excited about?
Abaddon has already breached the Cadian Gate, as per the results of the Eye of Terror campaign. The Sol system is important, which is what I'm getting at. The Imperium doesn't need there to be any more reason for the minions of Chaos to want in. An ambitious Chaos Lord/Sorcerer might be incredibly temtped to try a quick grab with a daring warp jump. It mightn't work, but the Imperium doesn't need anyone getting loose in the blessed heart of the Imperium.
Moving the sword around is the best bet by far. Certainly, it doesn't preclude the big Chaos champs meeting Crowe and fighting him for it, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult for them to plan such a meeting. Crowe isn't invulnerable, but he is considered to be the only one able to wield the weapon, which says something about his qualities as compared to his Battle Brothers.
The point is that having Crowe wield the blade is exactly what is _not_ wanted by the GK, but the only way they have to protect it. Look at the fortress where Drach'n'yen was kept; it was considered unbreachable, yet Abaddon and his forces, at the prompting of (possibly) the Deciever, breached them, killed everyone inside and claimed the powerful Daemonsword. If massive static defences don't work, thn maybe one pure soul will.

GFP


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The teacher I had told us what we needed to know for that particular level of education- simple cells for some years, more complex for the next level, more complex still for the next as telling us that things weren't as we were being told was pointlessly confusing. Terry Pratchett characterised education as varying levels of 'lies to children'; we get told things are a certain way at a particular level of education/age, because it helps us to grasp the basics before we go to the next level and the teachet says, 'you know how we said x? Well really it's x+y.' This was my experience exactly. However, the specifics don't really matter, the point being that we all know that a new 'dex will expand on what we have already been told, wasn't the expansion of the fluff what many were excited about?


I really like when they expand on fluff. The newest DE Codex is a perfect example of fluff expansion. They show us the details of the race, things we've only heard the generalities of before. But what we're talking about in the GK codex isn't the expansion of knowledge. It isn't 'you know how we said x? Well really it's x+y.' is "you know how we said x? Well really its y. x doesn't come into at all. Indeed y is the opposite of x."



> Abaddon has already breached the Cadian Gate, as per the results of the Eye of Terror campaign. The Sol system is important, which is what I'm getting at. The Imperium doesn't need there to be any more reason for the minions of Chaos to want in. An ambitious Chaos Lord/Sorcerer might be incredibly temtped to try a quick grab with a daring warp jump. It mightn't work, but the Imperium doesn't need anyone getting loose in the blessed heart of the Imperium.


The sword is nothing compared to the importance of Terra. Any Lord stupid enough to think he can just jump into the Sol system and grab the sword is stupid enough to deserve the swift death he'll get. 



> Moving the sword around is the best bet by far. Certainly, it doesn't preclude the big Chaos champs meeting Crowe and fighting him for it, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult for them to plan such a meeting. Crowe isn't invulnerable, but he is considered to be the only one able to wield the weapon, which says something about his qualities as compared to his Battle Brothers.


Planning such a meeting would be ludicrously simple. Launch a daemonic incursion in an area of space that Crowe is patrolling. He will respond because it is his duty to do so. Now he's on the battleground of your choice, with as little knowledge of your involvement as you've chosen to give him.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> The sword is nothing compared to the importance of Terra. Any Lord stupid enough to think he can just jump into the Sol system and grab the sword is stupid enough to deserve the swift death he'll get.


It only had the power to lead 3 whole sectors into war, and created a demonic presence so large and powerful that it took the combined might of all 8 brotherhoods of the Grey Knights (and who knows what other forces) to finally put an end to the War. Could be worth the risk.

You would also have the issue of where to store it. The safest place in titan, but I doubt the Grey Knights keep any actual battle brothers at their home most are aspirants, serfs, and the crippled. All of whom could be influenced by the blade and therefore steal it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> It only had the power to lead 3 whole sectors into war, and created a demonic presence so large and powerful that it took the combined might of all 8 brotherhoods of the Grey Knights (and who knows what other forces) to finally put an end to the War. Could be worth the risk.


Hmm, this is new fluff so I've got no knowledge of it beyond this thread. However I suspect that this power has only shown up once. If it requires that much protection routinely than the GK would be to busy defending it to achieve anything else. And it would be easier to gather the forces required to defend it if it was stored in a single location. 



> You would also have the issue of where to store it. The safest place in titan, but I doubt the Grey Knights keep any actual battle brothers at their home most are aspirants, serfs, and the crippled. All of whom could be influenced by the blade and therefore steal it.


Put it in a vault on Terra with Crowe and some of his home-boys to guard it. Easily more secure than Crowe and said boys traveling on a ship (presumably into the warp itself).


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> That's completely illogical. Titan and Terra are far more important targets than any daemon weapon. The reason they haven't been taken is because doing so is beyond the power of the Chaos forces, not because they don't want to. Terra is the single most defended location in the entire Imperium nothing, but nothing, can take it from Humanity as long as the Imperium exists.


Actually I think Terra could be captured it would just require the majority of races, or all orks working together to do it... or a Hive fleet that is dwarfs all the known hive fleets combined by about 10000x


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Hmm, this is new fluff so I've got no knowledge of it beyond this thread. However I suspect that this power has only shown up once. If it requires that much protection routinely than the GK would be to busy defending it to achieve anything else. And it would be easier to gather the forces required to defend it if it was stored in a single location.


The power was shown twice, the second time the Grey Knights managed to kill the wielder of the blade and secure it.



> Put it in a vault on Terra with Crowe and some of his home-boys to guard it. Easily more secure than Crowe and said boys traveling on a ship (presumably into the warp itself).


As to storing the blade and having Crowe guard it there are 2 problems. The first being that the Grey Knights don't have the man power to keep a squad in a fortress to keep guard on a blade. The second is a quote from DoW1 "heresy grows from idleness." If a squad of GKs just sat around watching the blade all day they would have nothing to distract them from the whispers of the blade. It's just not smart.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Jacobite said:


> Fucking hell... a GK carrying a deamon weapon... just shoot me now - the justification is shit. GK's don't work with Radicals. Period. They hunt them down, burn them and they erase their records. One of the hallmarks of the radicals is that they use Deamon Weapons and now there's a GK who uses one, a Champion no less... I bet any Relictors players are scratching their heads in confusion. Pity because the mini is quite nice.


As a Relictors player, I was wondering about that double-standard as well; We have daemonic gear, our floating fortress monastery gets turned into space debris and we're sent on a penitent crusade. YOU carry around a MUCH more dangerous relic and get lauded for doing so? :shok:


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> As to storing the blade and having Crowe guard it there are 2 problems. The first being that the Grey Knights don't have the man power to keep a squad in a fortress to keep guard on a blade.


They're the Grey Knights. They have the resources to do whatever they like. They can easily spare 5 guys to do that if they chose to, if it was that important. It's no different from sparing 5 guys to do any vital mission.



Wusword77 said:


> The second is a quote from DoW1 "heresy grows from idleness." If a squad of GKs just sat around watching the blade all day they would have nothing to distract them from the whispers of the blade. It's just not smart.


That depends. If a Grey Knight is literally immune to corruption, the whispers are useless, anyway. And either way, it's not idle - it's the gravest duty ever, apparently, requiring constant resistance. They could take shifts. Put it on Titan, and that's the end of it. Chaos physically can never get hold of it. Or have 10 guys charged with the duty of taking the blade, and running away forever. Taking it with them to meet up with daemons everyday is... Well.

Really, if it was that important, there are a dozen ways they could deal with it. A guy carrying the sword with him, to cross paths with daemons all the time, is - and let's be fair - not even close to the safest way. It's a concept that sounds cool, and thus, rules were made. Like many things, it doesn't stand up to logic. In this case, it doesn't even stand up to 40K's logic that well.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Really, if it was that important, there are a dozen ways they could deal with it. A guy carrying the sword with him, to cross paths with daemons all the time, is - and let's be fair - not even close to the safest way. It's a concept that sounds cool, and thus, rules were made. Like many things, it doesn't stand up to logic. In this case, it doesn't even stand up to 40K's logic that well.


This. My whole schtick about impossible-vs-improbable is in another thread, but to be believable, given fluff needs to follow the logic of the setting as much as possible. And while I am aware that little is logical in the 40k setting in comparison to reality, there are similarities between their perception of intelligence and ours. That's why some of the weapons and relics of the Dark Age of Technology that the Deathwatch has, like the anti-baryon detonator and the 'starbane' vortex cascade generator are being locked away in Watch Fortresses so that they can't be taken and used by the enemy. (src: Deathwatch rulebook)

For now, Titan is unassailable - in essence a hidden fortress filled with anti-daemonic wards and guarded by incorruptible Space Marines. Daemonic forces attracted to the Blade of Antwyr don't have a hope in hell of getting to it; at the time of this post, Imperial Forces hold air and space superiority over the Cadian Gate, giving it a significant advantage over the forces of Chaos; though Abbadon controls most of the planet, the Imperial Navy is free to send in fresh troops and subject those of Abbadon to orbital bombardment.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

So you're able to suspend belief that Calgar uses gauntlets recovered from a Chaos Champion or Grimnar uses an Axe reforged from a Chaos Champion's weapon (I'm seeing a pattern here) but a Grey Knight carrying around a Deamon weapon to keep it secure is too much to bear?

I don't know, seems to fit the pattern with other fluff.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> So you're able to suspend belief that Calgar uses gauntlets recovered from a Chaos Champion or Grimnar uses an Axe reforged from a Chaos Champion's weapon (I'm seeing a pattern here) but a Grey Knight carrying around a Deamon weapon to keep it secure is too much to bear?
> 
> I don't know, seems to fit the pattern with other fluff.


Are Calgar and Grimnar members of an elite unit designed specifically designed to eliminate those things in the weapons themselves and were specifically stated to not tolerate those who used those weapons? Because if that were the case I would have a problem with it. 

Further the weapons wielded by Calgar and Grimnar are not stated to be too dangerous to allow to fall into enemy hands.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Are Calgar and Grimnar members of an elite unit designed specifically designed to eliminate those things in the weapons themselves and were specifically stated to not tolerate those who used those weapons? Because if that were the case I would have a problem with it.


And the weapon may as well be a combat blade for all it's powers that Crowe uses. Plus Calgar and Grimnar both have standing orders to destroy the forces of Chaos on sight. So they have to go out and kill them, but then it's ok to loot their corpses for gear that may be tainted by the Ruinous Powers?



> Further the weapons wielded by Calgar and Grimnar are not stated to be too dangerous to allow to fall into enemy hands.


It's still the slippery slope for them. They've looted Chaos weapons how long before one of their number starts weilding a full blown Deamon Weapon?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think the fact is SWs have no problem using a perfectly fine crafted weapon that some Chaos Guy use. Its a weapon. Now a DAEMON Sword (this weapon is for all intents and purpose a Daemon) that "so poweful" thatif it falls into enemy hands it will make Abbaddons sword look like a stick. 

Then add in its weilded by a guy whos suppose to cut his hands off rather than touch said weapon that CURROPTS whoever/whatever holds it carries it to battle against guys that want it. If Fulgrim can be curropted by a Daemon Weapon, a Loyal Primarch (you know the guys that are GODS compared to regular Astartes "cough" GKs "cough"), what chance does a PISS ANT GK have.... heres a hint, not much.

Also hes a Fukin Astartes not a Primarch, he can die to a bolter round easy enough and yet he carries it into battle to keep it out of enemy hands??? Does that not sound really stupid?! I like stories that dont insult my inteligence as the reader. I know in Looney Toons when the Coyote falls of the cliff and doesnt die after the 10th time its because its funny, 40k doesnt have this excuse.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> So you're able to suspend belief that Calgar uses gauntlets recovered from a Chaos Champion or Grimnar uses an Axe reforged from a Chaos Champion's weapon (I'm seeing a pattern here) but a Grey Knight carrying around a Deamon weapon to keep it secure is too much to bear


There's a bit of a difference between "A Chaos guy used these" and "This is a blade with a daemon in it that has required almost the full mobilisation of the Chapter to deal with in times past".

I mean, come on, man. The differences between a Daemon Weapon and a piece of Chaos equipment are vast and incomparable. Let alone a Daemon Weapon of this power.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: If it was that dangerous, you wouldn't take it to meet daemons every day. I don't care how pure Crowe is, he's not unkillable. If he dies, then his genius plan of hiding the world-ending blade in the faces of daemons comes to nothing.

And besides, I never said a Grey Knight carrying the blade to keep it secure was too much to bear. In fact, several more realistic scenarios I laid out involved just that. They just didn't also involve running right up to Lords of Change and shouting "WOOOOO. _LOOK AT ME_."


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Do not confuse the lore of SM with the lore of GK. They are on so completely different a level, it may as well be in the hands of a primarch.

Further, if Crowe dies there is nothing to stop another GK from retrieving the sword. The Purifiers would soon find another handler, if they haven`t decided on a backup already.

And weapon or not, you`ve read stories of how dangerous an astartes is unarmed right? 

And a GK with a sword is somehow not safe?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Do not confuse the lore of SM with the lore of GK. They are on so completely different a level, it may as well be in the hands of a primarch.
> 
> Further, if Crowe dies there is nothing to stop another GK from retrieving the sword. The Purifiers would soon find another handler, if they haven`t decided on a backup already.


Of course. Assuming that in the middle of a fight with daemons, the GKs manage to get it back. You're being a little circumstantial. There's every realistic chance that if he was killed (and, really, he _is _killable) then the daemons killing him could take the sword, rather than his own companions. But that's still not the point.

As someone who writes about the primarchs and is doing a Grey Knight novel, I like to think it's not something I get "confused" about, though.



Serpion5 said:


> And weapon or not, you`ve read stories of how dangerous an astartes is unarmed right?
> 
> And a GK with a sword is somehow not safe?


Safer than in a vault on Titan? Safer than with 5 Grey Knights? Safer than with 10 Grey Knights taking the sword and running? Safer than with Crowe himself taking it out of the galaxy, or Crowe himself remaining hidden for all time on Titan?

You're fundamentally misunderstanding my point, Serps ol' chum. I'm not - and have never said - that it wouldn't work at all, even for a short length of time. I've said there are many safer, more realistic ways.

You cannot seriously, _sincerely_ tell me that a Grey Knight running towards daemons, all the time, with the sword in his hands, is safer than the same Grey Knight guarding it on the most impregnable world in the Imperium, or several guardians taking the sword and running with it, or even a GK or two taking it and leaving the galaxy. It's not like self-sacrifice is a rare thing for Space Marines, especially not the Grey Knights.

Simply put, it's a cool concept that doesn't stand up to logic. But that happens, it's 40K. It just doesn't usually happen to this degree.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> And besides, I never said a Grey Knight carrying the blade to keep it secure was too much to bear. In fact, several more realistic scenarios I laid out involved just that. They just didn't also involve running right up to Lords of Change and shouting "WOOOOO. _LOOK AT ME_."


Oh I know, I was referring more to Protoss119 post then yours.

Personally I think the logic fits 40k rather well. I mean we're talking about a universe where it takes so long to build something because the tech priests pray to the parts so they work and Orks can duct tape things together that then begin to shoot (usually randomly). Having a holy order that feels a weapon of the enemy isn't safe unless it is with them at all times just seems par for the course.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Oh I know, I was referring more to Protoss119 post then yours.
> 
> Personally I think the logic fits 40k rather well. I mean we're talking about a universe where it takes so long to build something because the tech priests pray to the parts so they work and Orks can duct tape things together that then begin to shoot (usually randomly). Having a holy order that feels a weapon of the enemy isn't safe unless it is with them at all times just seems par for the course.


Fine, but I don't believe such. But the Order possessing it is sending it into battle with their champion, where there is as much reason to believe that it won't be coming back as it will be. As Space Marine commanders and leaders as a whole are played up as highly intelligent fellows, I expected better from the Grey Knights.

Otherwise, I can't argue taste, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@DBC: Charging a horde of daemons is never safe, GK or not. But we`ve already established that this weapon calls to those who seek to claim it. As far as I am aware trying to hide it on Titan or anywhere in Sol would be a risk not worth taking. 

This sword is some serious shit remember. I don`t think they made this decision lightly. 

And I do understand where you`re coming from, but the fact is until this is expanded on via novel or something, then neither of us is in possession of all the facts involved.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> @DBC: Charging a horde of daemons is never safe, GK or not. But we`ve already established that this weapon calls to those who seek to claim it. As far as I am aware trying to hide it on Titan or anywhere in Sol would be a risk not worth taking.
> 
> This sword is some serious shit remember. I don`t think they made this decision lightly.
> 
> And I do understand where you`re coming from, but the fact is until this is expanded on via novel or something, then neither of us is in possession of all the facts involved.


Joking aside, that's a good point. 

However, I may put it into a novel where all the other Grey Knights think he's a douche. That'll learn him.

Or I could be professional, instead. I'll see how it goes.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Joking aside, that's a good point.
> 
> However, I may put it into a novel where all the other Grey Knights think he's a douche. That'll learn him.
> 
> Or I could be professional, instead. I'll see how it goes.


love it. What is this guy doing so early in the morning? I know, probably writing the rest of the Heresy Novels. Oh gosh:yahoo:! I can't wait. :lazy2:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Having had a good read of the offending passage today, I can say that I'm even less sure why this character's fluff has been decided as too far. 
Firstly, the sword was recvered in M37. It had always been involved in death and ruination, sometimes being taken back into the warp by Daemons before being lost in conflict again. The GK had the worst decision to make. They couldn't destroy it. They couldn't just fire it out into the empty depths of space because of the chance someone would be pulled to the blade and would reclaim it- the wielders were always dominated and controlled by the Daemon within. They didn't believe that it was acceptable to bury it in the depths of some huge fortress becuase it would just corrupt its guardians. So, they gave it into the care of the Purifiers, who would give it into the care of the most pure of their order. Crowe is considered the perfect wielder, well as good as one can be, because he soul is the purest of the pure and resistant to the blandishments of Chaos. However, he dares not call on the power of the blade, rather just uses the deadly sword that it is, allied to his own martial skill. It tries to corrupt him, but he refuses to let it.
Taking this weapon into combat might not be the brightest idea, but it's all they can do. Anywhere it is, there is danger. If Crowe stayed on Titan then the Daemon would corrupt the non-GK who live there. Remove Crowe from combat and you remove his entire reason to exist, something that could only make him resent his situation and be more likely to listen to the Daemonblade. So, we get a typical Imperial solution to this problem; it's not ideal, it's not what anyone wants and it's not the perfect course of action by any means. But, until someone comes up with a better solution this is what they've got- a blade protected by the purest members of the purest group of souls in the Imperium, souls who are the best fighters and guardians who could be tasked with this duty.

GFP


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

I also like to imagine Castellan Crowe's naming ritual.

Brother Phobor lowered his head in respect. "You, Brian, shall join the Grey Knights in this moment. As is customary, you must take a name that is the sacred bane of one daemon - a name to define you, shape you - perhaps something new to herald the great deeds of your future, or a respected and ancient name that has seen use in our blessed order through the generations. Choose that name now."

Brian grinned. "Call me Crowe."

Brother Phobor hesitated. "Really? _That's_ your name? _That's _the name that binds you to one daemon's eternal destruction? _That's_ your sacred and holy soul-name?" 

"Yeah. I sort of want to have a name that isn't really Grey Knighty at all, since I'm playing fast and loose with the background, anyway. I'd rather be called something that sounds cool in a late 80s way, like an American movie star name. Something kids like to say."

Brother Phobor had sort of had enough of this. "Can you at least choose a decent first name?"

"Sure. But no one will ever use it, so I still win. Say, is that a daemon sword? Can I carry it around? I won't use its powers, I swear. I'll just take it with me into the heart of daemonic hordes every day."


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Continue the story! Watch ADB write a whole story first hand in the Heresy!

Do some of the authors kind of get pissed off about Matt Ward kind of jumping above the natural lore of things in the 40k world? If so, what do you do about it? TP his house?!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Bravo, bravo. I buy that book at least its truthful.


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## Sacred Feth (Jan 13, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I also like to imagine Castellan Crowe's naming ritual.
> 
> Brother Phobor lowered his head in respect. "You, Brian, shall join the Grey Knights in this moment. As is customary, you must take a name that is the sacred bane of one daemon - a name to define you, shape you - perhaps something new to herald the great deeds of your future, or a respected and ancient name that has seen use in our blessed order through the generations. Choose that name now."
> 
> ...


I can see this becoming a short story in a _Failures Of The Space Marines_ anthology.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

as a chaos player i just come to deal with the fact that Loyalist just keeping up with lame excuses to get chaos weaponry in their arsenal of equipment. god with this bull shit daemon weapons being in their army, and now they basically have a cheaper and more effective oblit spam. i can just see matt ward jacking off to the chaos codex thinking of ways he can incorperate awesomeness into his army. what a jack ass. whats next they give Ultra smurfs Lash of Submission. jesus through. anyways i hope Chaos gets decked out with their release cause im getting sick of playing these cheese loyalist list. this comment sounds bitter but it is true.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

On topic: Maybe the GK could contact the Blood Angels and see if they can get in contact with Dante`s buddy the Silent King? I`m sure the necrons are better equipped to neautralise a warp based threat than anyone... :biggrin:


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

throw the sword into a Tyranid Hive Fleet. Then the Tyranids will have to deal with that deamon and the hordes of chaos soon to follow. Problem solved.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Or bigger propblem in the form of super daemonic Hive Tyrant. :laugh:


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Or bigger propblem in the form of super daemonic Hive Tyrant. :laugh:


That my friend is not a problem... that is an awesome.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Continue the story! Watch ADB write a whole story first hand in the Heresy!
> 
> Do some of the authors kind of get pissed off about Matt Ward kind of jumping above the natural lore of things in the 40k world? If so, what do you do about it? TP his house?!


I like to picture the HH team take time out during their meetings to leave dead fish in his desk.
Or even live fish.


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

Sorry for bringing this thread back to life for a moment, but... Whatever happened to you know, "Blanks"? You know, those individuals that are blanks to the warp and can basically nullify warp powers around them? Wouldn't they be an actual answer to the daemon sword than a GK?

Just my 2 cents.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

If matt ward gets control of the chaos codex the whole heresy wouldn't of happened it was just a ultramarine training exercise where Horus is an ultramarine and the emperor is an ultramarine, with them fighting over who loves the big papa smurf the most.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Why not chuck the sword into the Emperors throne room? I think thats secure enough. Or failing that throw it in the keep of the Sisters of Silence.

Anyway. Mat Ward is now doing Necrons (apparently) so who knows what they will end up as. Most likely as BFF's with the Blood Angels and the C'tan are Facebook friends with Dante and finally Mephiston will be running around local pubs with the Deceiver in tow. With a Monolith as a personal taxi.


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