# New empire thoughts



## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

Lets get the ball rolling. What is every ones thoughts on the new empire rules. 
I feel most the changes are ok to great. All in all I think it is a great new book. 

My only complaint is the point increase to state troops. I dont see any reason for the increase for no change in the units. I understand the different points between the three combat units I dropped spearman a point and kept the rest at the previous levels. 

Also a little disappointed that swordsmen lost a point of I. 

Finally I was looking forward to some major change to knights to make them useful again. 

Again all in all looks great and still a strong army.


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## riburn3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Just got done reading the book and think it's a solid army. 

As usual, Empire remains a jack of all trades army. The knights didn't get any better to me, but cavalry as a whole have been softened up ever since 8th edition dropped.

Points have been adjusted on a few units as mentioned elsewhere, but nothing drastic. 

Demigryph's to me are pretty solid, and I have a friend that plays Empire that is licking at the chops to grab a couple boxes of these. That said, for the points I can think of a couple better uses for points in the special section, Flagellants being one of them now. 

To me it was an easy no-brainer update by GW since the core of this army is already built and modeled with lots of plastics. It just allowed for them to keep the same core, update the rules for 8th edition, and carve out a few expensive heroic/rare models to renew interest. The new codex is going to create a lot of new interesting "themed armies", but for the most part, playstyle for the Empire is not going to change much and the learning curve is going to be non-existant for regular Empire players and their foes.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I was a little annoyed by the points increase but I think its justified after how good detachments are now.

Demigryphs are too expensive points wise and I don't think they have a regular place in my army.

Other than that I can not really make much further comments until I have played a few games.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Not seen the rules for demigryphs yet but from what I've been told of them they're pretty much just empire versions of mornfang... except that they don't have the big weaknesses.

The comparison between them is pretty close: mournfang have more attacks overall and with impact hits are killier but demigryphs have armour piercing (so are better against the 1+/2+ armour units which mournfang struggle with), have a better armour save (but lose parry) and have a better leadership (the huge weakness of mournfang).
I also think that they fill a huge hole in the empire army that is otherwise only really filled by the steam tank- the rampage unit that will just tear the enemy apart if they don't deal with it correctly. So long as they are similar points to a mournfang I see no reason not to use them.


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## Atreyu (May 30, 2011)

The problem with the demigryph knights is the same for most high armored guys: Lore of Metal. Being Monsterous Cav they are very pricey and definitely don't see them coming in large blocks, making prime targets for lore of metal casters, which is very common amongst many armies.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, there is a good counter to the unit around... would be a strange game if there wasn't. Not taking gryphs just for that is like not taking a steam tank because the opponent might be taking lore of shadow/death (both of which are far far more popular locally then lore of metal... unless your me, I love metal).

If searing doom is cast on them your are losing 1-2 models... which if you take a unit of 5-6 (which is standard for mournfang locally.. and the size of gryphs in the new local GW shop army) then tis painful but not game over. Also, pit of shades, purple sun and dwellers below are all going to be doing a similar amount of damage to you.

I'm going to a doubles tourny at WHW in may and I am expecting to see quite a few seriously mournfang/demigryph heavy armies about. They might not be able to break big blocks of infantry, but they'll kill their way right through them quick enough and survive long enough to do it...


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## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

I feel as a whole the option to do an all cav Empire army is a better option than in the last edition. 

Speaking of cav, I love the idea of Rieksguard knights having their own unit. How ever I feel an opportunity was missed. Make that a special unit of knights that have pick one of 5 upgrades to make them special to different orders. To make them Rieksguard you buy that upgrade to make them stubborn, or but the upgrade for Ulric and they are frenzied....ect. 

Little disappointed also that a Master Templar cant ride a demigryph. 

Think they lost out in their magic defense, to balance that Priests are a little better in the prayers they cast.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I don't claim to be an expert, but the Hellblaster would appear to be the new Mortar, very good for its points, no real downside and pretty much an auto-include for anyone with pretensions of competativeness.

One imagines that detatchments appended to Greatsords magically becoming Stubborn Ld8 will get irritating quickly. Still early days, though. I'll wait to see things on the table.


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## Atreyu (May 30, 2011)

I am quite excited to see how the Empire plays out since a lot of my local GW goers are under to older than i am (essentially 11-19) and they like to bounce around whenever something new comes out.


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## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

I still feel that the mortar will still be chewing units up by sheer number of hits. But the point increase and str drop will hurt it. 

I agree that Helblaster will be a great weapon to use on the field, it will also be an automatic upgrade that a master engineer with it. Use his BS and reroll one of the dice a must take.


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## Partybear (Dec 16, 2010)

Wel i played some games vs empire today at different levels of points. In each game i can say that the empire army seems really interesting and quite balanced, the missile troops seem alittle expensive but what i can say they under priced the Demigryph's. Demigryph's are horrendous to fight! Without a cannon or Metal wizard they will walk through any units you can throw at them 1+ save and 3 wounds means you need to be a st 5 horde to stand a chance against them. I cant see the negatives to them at all i think you will see alot of Demigryph deathstars in most empire armies backed up by cannons in the immediate future.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

After a quick glance through and reading some rules online I'm not impressed, admittedly it's more that every unit that's been nerfed is in my army and I don't really want to redo it at the moment .
I like the new models mostly but as in the [email protected] book it seems writen purely to sell the new stuff ( and the hideously overpriced greatswords) 
I've been an Empire general long enough to realise that the characters have the life expectance of a sausage roll at a kids party and the thought of sticking them on mardi gras floats with big kill me signs doesn't appeal nor does putting my general on a big flying chicken especially as I'm paying extra for the hold the line ability' characters should be hiding in or behind units not asking to be killed.
Talking of chicken is it just me or is there a resemblance to col sanders the kentucky fried vampie chicken slayer with that bushy white tache.
My opinions may change once I've written a few lists but as of now I'm lessthan impressed.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

Considering what some other AB got of late, i.e. VampCounts, I found the Empirebook disappointing. In particluar when one followed the fluff with lot's of statestroops. I didn't look at single units / troops only but at the whole army as I played it before.

Based on 2.499 Points ( 2.500 is the standard these days in our club, with so called COMBAT 8.0 restrictions ) , my army is now a staggering 360 points more expensive by gaining exacly nothing.

Detachment rules - hmm. I must say, those haven't helped too much in the past either because either you got out-manouvered ( too much stuff on the plate ) or the enemy just attacked the detachments with some smaller units. 

Yes, "Hold the line" is a nice improvement, but who is going to pay the points for so many "heroes" - a warpriest for hatred and a captain for HTL is getting a bit expensive just to keep some, otherwise already rather expensive S3T3 troops alive. Our swordsmen cost as much as i.e. stormvermin. The latter carry heavy armour, halberd and provide WS4 I5. OK Ld is lower, but with 40 - 50 Stormvermin 5 ranks I have long time Ld 7+ and more. On top the rats are faster. Same is with Clanrats vs. Spearmen. The rats are still .5 points cheaper - with shield !

Our Swords became not only more expensive, they also lost their I4 not a huge problem, but things are adding up. 

Meteoric is now double the price.
Facing armies like Ogres, Chaos dwarfs, VC, and Khemri today, the Empire need some breaker units badly. What we got were some expensive demi-griffons, Ol' Reiksguards - ahem, and some support units which just help to mass up the troops for everything that can throw templates at us - including other fellow empire players, of course, hehe.

Can I thanks that our mortars became so expensive and weak ( S2 ) at the same time ?
Should I say good work to Cruddace having made those already overpriced GS even more expensive ?

Was it really necessary to reduce the once strong flaggies to a mere bunch of yelling creatures worth nothing anymore - thanks to Sigmar I never played them in hordes.

I haven't played a new army yet, but struggle already a bit with assembling a list I would like to play.... so in a nutshell - the whole book was not really what I expected.

Maybe I will find some goodies which fit to my playstyle. If not, this army will stay in the drawer and I use my HE, WoC, Rats, Dawi or the green tide.

Or I stay with 40K alltogether

Night guys.


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## alasdair (Jun 11, 2009)

I have not had too much of a read of the new empire book, but the one thing I did look at was Mortars. I am appalled at the changes that have been made. The only reason people used to run mortars was because of the large blast with reasonably high strength. Although you could argue it was slightly overpowered, the strength 2 does not really represent how powerful a mortar would be. I think at least strength 4 would be reasonable, if he were to change it at all.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

alasdair said:


> I have not had too much of a read of the new empire book, but the one thing I did look at was Mortars. I am appalled at the changes that have been made. The only reason people used to run mortars was because of the large blast with reasonably high strength. Although you could argue it was slightly overpowered, the strength 2 does not really represent how powerful a mortar would be. I think at least strength 4 would be reasonable, if he were to change it at all.


Yep, small example of what happend to many list entries.... I gues the fraction who always called our cannons cheesy got what they want.
Not that I am complaining about dwarfs with even better cannons ( + runes - what a gunpowder-festival ) or some entries in the VC book, or the Ogres. 

I think the Empire book went from at par with some better books to sub-par now. Except maybe for those who love to take a bunch otherwise completely different units and try to form something out of it which may work.

Heirlooms were cut ( as with the Orcs, though )...Flaggies I mentioned already, Militia became even more worthless as they've been with the old book, Huntsmen - what for ?
Waltar got stripped to the bones....

As I said, little here an there adds up and the army will probably change completely from a mass / horde type with large regiments to pack of specialists . Whether I will like this, I don't know yet...:dunno:


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

Partybear said:


> Wel i played some games vs empire today at different levels of points. In each game i can say that the empire army seems really interesting and quite balanced, the missile troops seem alittle expensive but what i can say they under priced the Demigryph's. Demigryph's are horrendous to fight! Without a cannon or Metal wizard they will walk through any units you can throw at them 1+ save and 3 wounds means you need to be a st 5 horde to stand a chance against them. I cant see the negatives to them at all i think you will see alot of Demigryph deathstars in most empire armies backed up by cannons in the immediate future.


Yep, think that too. The models are really nice. However, as I said in my other post, empire will not anymore be the type of army I had in mind when I re-started it with begin of the 8. edition.

Probably I'll have to play historical tabletop and not WHFB when I want to see blocks of Troops on the board, :laugh:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I played a 2k game the other day against the new Empire.

Can't say it was particularly fair as I panicked at the thought of a 'new' army and brought my standard PG Fridge with BoH and Teclis cheesecakes.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

@ Privateer

Empire have excellent artillery.
Empire have excellent tarpits.
Empire have excellent breakers/blitzers
Empire have very strong magic
Empire have good character buffs
Empire have poor basic infantry

... if you can't combine all that to make a decent army then you are playing empire wrong.
Humans aren't meant to be devastatingly strong in combat, but they are meant to be inventive and self-supporting. Combining artillery to weaken (not destroy as it stupidly used to) enemy blocks, tarpits to slow enemy advances and both character buffs and magical augmentation to boost your own infantry is exactly how empire are meant to play in the fluff... and now that is exactly how the army works.

There are other armies around that don't require such co-ordinated tactics, such as WoC and OnG, but complaining about Empire having to play like Empire will get very little sympathy from me...


As for the Demigryphs...
They are basically empire equivalents of Mournfang... but better.
Mournfang:
+ attacks
+ impact hits
+parry
Demigryphs:
+ armour piercing
+ armour
+ leadership
+ characters

That sounds about even until you figure out that while mournfang are incredibly killy they have a huge weakness in their Ld and can struggle against well armoured opponents. Ld7 means that as soon as they take a panic check (which normally only requires 1 model to die) they have a serious chance of running away. meanwhile Demigryph are less likely to have to take a panic check (better armour) and have better Ld already, but can also have characters join them without serious movement penalty.


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## riburn3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Couldn't agree more Tim/Steve. To me Empire in the past were so cookie cutter, with all sorts of mortor spam, that while playing them was fun and a challenge, you didn't see very many different builds. The Empire, along with Dwarfs is still arguibly the best shooting army out there, and they do it with variety. Add an Engineer or two on your volley guns and you still are going to have a devistating shooting attack.

I feel the new book gives them lots of extra options as well as lots of different themes people can create with their army. Some of their new toys like the magic chariots add extra flavor, the Demigryphs fit in the monsterous cavalry theme most armies seem to be getting now (plus they are good), and having detachements actually count to core points is a big plus (not to mention their special rules). 

As always with new army books, playstyles get slightly adjusted. What was commonplace in the previous editions book gets bested by better builds and better rules. Older players have to readjust and break away from their previous mold or their armies will die trying. I've played against the new Empire 4 times now at my local shop, and I am split against them with my Ogres, where against the old book I had only lost a couple games out of over 10 with them. Old Empire Generals may complain, but there are very good builds with lots of variety out there now. Break free from the mold!


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## Turnip86 (Oct 7, 2011)

Privateer said:


> Probably I'll have to play historical tabletop and not WHFB when I want to see blocks of Troops on the board, :laugh:


From a fluff point of view, if you read any of the empire background books then you'll know that most empire towns have very few garrisoned state troops to call on (usually 0-10 for normal towns with larger towns 10-25) with most of the numbers coming from militia so really this new book fits in with that and I think most people are fine with it.

You now have to make all your units work together to get the best results rather than using the same standard build in the same way meaning you now have much more freedom to choose what you want in the army and variety is good. Yes you might have to add some of the new units and take out some old but to be honest unless you enjoyed sitting back spamming mortars then you'll probably have more fun with the new book.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

Gentlemen, all well said and true. When i recall correctly, I started playing WHFB in 1986 or so. Empire was my first army. So I think, I know how this army should look and feel - fluffwise.

Although fluff has changed a bit over the years too most things remained the same.

As it is expressed in the 8. Edition rulebooks army-section :

...."even if a foe is able to overcome the torrent of fire from artillery and the powerful magic, it will only mean, that he will see himself confronted with huge regiments of highly disciplined infantery. Even if the enemies attack has not been stopped by the "forest of spears and blades" , the Knights will launch their counterattack to finish the work which began with bullets and bolts".....

Well I think this excerpt pretty much summarizes what an Empire Army should be all about. No need to discuss this any further imho.

It's nice to have even more options today then ever before. But why on earth was it then necessery to weaken already weak troops further by making them too expensive or in some cases even pretty much useless ? 

If I want to play an Elite Army, I take my HE from the shelf.

Well, again I was badly surprised by the fact that certain troop choices become much less interesting although I thinbk they belong to the core of the empire army. I will certainly playtest the new options an will see how much fun it will be.

regards
Stefan


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I was fairly annoyed at first as I'd not long changed my army to work in this edition, big hordes and mortars, And the new book looks to redesign the whole layout of the army meaning either loads of expense modifying the army or I just dig out my stunties. 
Some of the rulechanges and new stuff look ok but not enough for me to totally redo my army.
Flaggelants are garbage, who wants an unbreakable unit that self destructs? outside of an undead list it doesn't make sense.
And I can't make my brain see any puny human on a big chariot type thing or a massive chicken, Why any Empire character with a sense of self preservation would make themselves such an obvious target is beyond me and even in hero hammer second edition it was something to avoid. 
The mortar issue is my biggest gripe though as while I understand the new rules made it more effective a price increase was a fair trade in for improved accuracy the strength drop was too much and means unless you want a counter for skavenslaves there is little point taking any.
At least the book is consistent though the whole specials section is all equally rubbish with very through auto pick units standing out.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

@neilbatte

You nail it man....


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Stonethrowers from other armies are ~100pts. Mortars swap blast size for lower strength and they'll still tear up cheap hordes and elite elven blocks.
But if you don't like mortars then there are still cannons, volley guns or rocket batteries to choose from if you don't want to use mortars... and while the mortar has been weakened the volley guns are a hell of a lot better. Its all swings and roundabouts... just so long as you either have those units that have improved or are willing to buy them. I know its taken me quite a time to get my ogres back on form, my necrons are still changing over to the new dex and my nids have been almost forgotten... I know that pain.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

@Tim/Steve :
Volley guns : I agree should be more reliable now - and cannons "just" got more expensive.
Mortars became waste of points imho. Just don't forget you should always try to have an engineer with the warmachines. Now they got partially more than 20% more expensive which just means no points for the engineer left = much less deadly than before.

So I still think at the end of the day andf on a whole this new book means a significant change to the worse for the empire. I didn't take cannons and mortars because I liked them, it was because we had nothing else to deal with quite a bunch of really hard or cheap mass units from other factions, in particular from VC, Ogres, Chaos, DE, Lizards Skaven just to name a few.

Well, indeed it all swings and I hope I'll get used to the new empire soon.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I have done a full analysis of the whole book now. This is what I posted on opur gaming group local site on this topic:

Many of the changes/nerfs (WPs and ALs losing the ability to generate dispel dice, increase costs of great cannon, stank modified to T6 and changed rule for boiler malfunction, and changes to mortars) were somewhat predictable and expected. I am kind of disappointed by the lack of creativity in the design of the book/army relative to the OK and VC books, the points costs increases of most of the state troops infantry, the limitations on the master engineers combined with no ability to take an engineer as a champion on the war machines, and the changes in the mortars (either increase the points costs or nerf the strength or size of the temple but not both decrease S and increase points cost significantly at the same time). There was a clearly opportunity to offer halflings as an option and the two wizard mobiles are not very impressive compared with the ironblasters and mortis engines offered, respectively, in the two immediately prior books (Ogres and Vampires). Making a dual war later/war wagon kit would have been an obvious choice over the wizard chariots. Clearly, one design choice was to discourage a true gunline army and to enhance combat. 

Core:

The new detachment rules and better battle prayers replacing the sigmar blessings may make state troops still quite viable but state troops are now more reliant on having warriors priests in the units and/or an arch lector on a war alter in range and being able to get off the improved battle prayers in order to augment units. 

Spearmen no points change (now more viable relative to other state troop alternatives just because other units had cost increases)
Halberds cost more (viable, especially as detachments)
Swordmen cost more (no longer as viable as an option)
Archers cost less and now can be parent and detachment units (more viable, can be used both as parent and detachments, good for hiding a master engineer or witch hunter in a detachment or independent unit due to skirmish rule with march and shoot, could be useful with a stubborn parent as annoying redirectors)
Crossbowmen cost more point (less viable than before except as detachments with stand and shoot and counter charge)
Handgunners cost more point (less viable than before except as detachments with stand and shoot and counter charge)
Militia cost more (less viable, likely not used in favor of archer and halberd detachments)


I do not believe that the points costs increases are justified by the improved detachment rules (which allow the points of detachments to be part of the parent unit cost and, thus, count as part of the core) and due to the improved warrior priest battle prayers. A detachment no longer automatically gets a flank charge as a counter charge but a detachment gets the pyschology benefits of its parent (ITP, stubborn, steadfast, hatred, etc.). For example, a unit of 10 archers acting as a detachment to great swords can act as stubborn roadblocks/redirectors to opposing units and can screen the great sword from BS-based shooting. Additionally, the heirloom rule that allowed one state troop unit a take a magic banner if a general led the army was lost. 

What does benefit you, however, is that knights are slighly cheaper and the inner circle knights upgrade is part of core. I really think that knights with great weapons and inner circle knights with a magic standard will now increasingly make up a significant part of core. This allows characters to get much better armour saves and to be mounted and has synergy with demigryph knights clearly being undercosted as a single rank unit (supporting attacks are not good due to rider not being the heavy hitter). Also, Reiksguard knights are special units that have the inner circle upgrade and a modest points cost increase for being stubborn. Thus, a cavalry-focused army is quite viable with the higher armour saves and ability to run a stubborn unit. A unit of regular knights with great weapons and inner circle knights may prove to be a better choice than greatswords just because of the greater mobility, improved armour save and ability to count as core. Imagine a unit of knights with 1+ AS and harmonic convergence (re-roll all 1's on to hit, to wound, and AS rolls) from lore of heavens against S3 or S4 units and with or without hatred. You will fail the AS roll only one out of 36 times and increase the hit and wound rate significantly (especially on the charge with lances but even for the horses). 

Special:

As for special, pistoliers are still worth running (pistols have range 12") as are outriders. 

Huntsmen are much cheaper but pretty weak skirmisher/scouts (should have a better BS given the description). 

Flaggelants were increased in point cost significantly, still unbreakable, have a less reliable martyr rule, and only have frenzy (which can be lost if they lose combat). Thus, doubt you will see a lot of these guys anymore. 

Great swords cost more but the improved detachment rules and battle prayers may pay off if screened from BS shooting. 

Reiksguard added as stubborn inner circle knights for a modest points cost increase over inner circle knights. Potentially great combo with a captain with the hold the line ability and max armour save and decent ward save. 

Mortars were really nerfed by being both made significantly more expensive and given only S2 AP for hits not in the center. (One long-time ranked empire player suggests that the combination of large template and S6 multiple wounds for model hit by the hole may still make this a viable but no longer obvious choice.) 

Great cannons had a points cost increase but are still worth playing. 
The biggest problem is that master engineers now must choose in advance which warmachine they are going to lend their abilities to and, once having made that choice, they cannot shoot their weapons. The only positive is an engineer gets one re-roll of a scatter or art dice and to use its BS to boost as war machine. 

Rare
Give the new master engineer rules and the new rules for hellblaster volley guns (HBVG) will make the master engineer best for that unit and/or the hellstorm rocket (with D3 scatter templates and use of BS to redirect scatter with indirect fire). With an engineer on a HBVG, one can dramatically reduce the risk of a complete misfire (two misfire rolls) and increase the number of hits and the hit rate (+1 to BS) such that the gun can potential tear up a pretty tough unit (wth S5 AP hits). With the master engineeer there is an 11.6% chance of shots on two artillery dice without misfires being cut in half, only a 1.6% chance of a misfire (roll on black powder chart), and 0.1% chance of getting 30 shots but also blowing up the gun. On average, you will get 16.3 shots off, with 10th percentile 7.0 shots; 90th percentile 24.0 shots; 25th percentile 12.0 shots; 75the percentile 20.0 shots. Furthermore, you will be hitting two-thirds of the time at short range (no multiple shot rule, no penalty for moving when one pivots the war machine) and 50% at long range. With the trend to high AS and higher T4 and T5 models (including monstrous infantry and cav), you can really tear up those units. A skaven slave and clanrat army is probably not a good choice for this war machine. 

Master engineers can no longer join a warmachine (replacing one of the crew option is not in the army book), so they might be in a cheap unit of archers to max look out sir and give the archers the ability to block attacks on the war machines (especially if detachments to steadfast or stubborn parent units). Thus, you will like see then placed in a unit within 3" of a cannon or hellstorm rocket battery and a HBVG and allocated to the cannon/hellstorm if the HBVG is not in range and then allocated to the HBVG once enemy troops are within 24". 

The new wizard chariots are not impressive. They are probably just cheap enough to consider playing as tough (T5), W5 chariots with nice automatic augments (+1 DD and 6+ ward save or +1PD and +1 to hit). The buffs are neat but the low armour save for such an expensive chariot and low or no ward save makes these expensive chariots with some limited range augments and bound spells. The bound spells will often compete for PD with the battle prayers of WPs and the lvl 4 spells once in combat. 

The stank is cheaper and has more options in some ways. Its movement is less reliable in range but the random movement rule is annoying to opponents (like the hellpit abom of skaven). It is more likely to boiler failure (misfire) early. But with less steam points, the consequences are managable. Using steam points, the stank can shoot its cannon (when not in combat) for a much longer range and shoot its steam gun when in combat. However, the steam tank also has the ability to continue to function when it has taken on wounds (take fewer Steam points and roll to see if one does not misfire and with lower SP there is no risk of taking more wounds). As a tough-to-kill mobile cannon and unbreakable model, the stank is probably just worth its points and viable. 

The hellstorm rocket may be worth considering because of its potential for multiple template hits but the indirect fire rule and S3 hits are troublesome and may limit the effectiveness of this war machine except against massed lower T infantry units. 

Warrior priests are now a lot cheaper, have better battle prayers to augment the units they are in, and can channel power dice and dispel dice (the loss of the ability to generate dispel dice was pretty much expected in 8th edition). You are likely to see WPs spammed in multiple units for this reason along with a lvl 4 wizard (made slightly cheaper). 

The general of the army characteris much more likely to be the general now, grand masters (with +1Ws and +1A and ITP in cav) are also more likely to be seen as a lord choice for the general), and captains with their hold the line 3D6 break tests and reasonably low points costs would be worth playing in units of knights. Because demigryph knights are likely to be points efficient and worth taking and are monstrous cav, you can put a captain on a peg in a larger unit of demigryph knights and gain an extra wound for the captain with the peg and hit reasonably hard (pegs get two attacks) and have the ability to fly the captain out to hit something like a chariot, war machine, skirmishers, or fast cav unit.

Overall, empire went from being a top tier army when well designed and max played (with 2 cannons and 2 mortars combined with and sharing engineers, lvl 4 lore of life caster, arch lector and war priests and capital BSB, stank, and 30 flaggies used as part of core) to a competitive army but no longer top tier simply because of the loss of some key magic items, nerf to speculum, loss of the ability to carry over power and dispel dice, and loss of dispell dice generated by war priests and arch lectors. 

Obvious choices:
Demigryph knights (usually one rank only unless with captain on peg)
War priests
HBVG's with master engineers (reliable and accurate S5 AP shooting with ability to pivot to shoot)
core inner circle knights
captain BSB
lvl 4 battle wizard

Because battle prayers are "innate" abilities given to war priests and arch lectors, failure to case results in no break in concentration and a miscast simply means that model cannot cast additional bound spells. Thus, with extra channeling by multiple WPs in the army, you may find a lvl 4 forcing out the dispell dice and scrolls and then throwing single or double dice (two-thirds chance of casting with single dice; 97% with two dice) at bound spells once in range of getting into combat for the 5+ ward in combat and the re-roll to wound bound spells and occasionally soulfire (flaming to deal with regen and to damage models in base contact with the ar priests). Getting these spells off on the charge, gives you two rounds of combat (assuming no one breaks or is destroyed in combat) because they are now augments.


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## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

As an empire player who has won the last two major tournament in my area with empire, I feel I see the power that a well balanced 7th edition empire army can have, looking to the new book I still see the power that the army can have. I will agree that the point increase to state troops was sad but not enough to bother me. In fact after reworking my army list with the new point costs I found that I had created an almost identical army to my previous 7th edition army book, the only major difference was magic item combination. 

If anything this new book made my play style even more competitive, in the previous book I played so that my units relied on each other, and my characters were used to buff my units and help keep them alive, so with the new book relying on interdependence of units feel my style will be bettered. As i can say with my 2500pt army this past Saturday I completely wiped out a skaven and elven army while i did not lose a complete unit only one WP my BSB and a unit of 10 Rieksguard. 

After reading and reading and rereading the book and playing several games, I going to agree with Tim/Steve, while agreeing with parts of olderplayer. 

A new army book should seek to change the way the army is played, for two reasons 1) the most important to GW it sells new models and drives sales in general, 2)the most important to the players it keeps the game fresh. Not only do I as a player of empire get to create new list and try to decipher the new book, but the people I play get to play a fresh new list instead of my list that I have played for two years since I started my empire back up. 

In conclusion the new empire book still provides the best army for a new player, still provides options for a variety of play styles, and still remains a top tier army. remember humans are supposed to provide the baseline or middle ground and they fill that role quit well.


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## Privateer (Feb 27, 2012)

Hi Extracrew

what counts at the end are the reports from those actually playing the new book army. So I was glad to read the positive report.

Hope you will be as successful in the future as well. 

No one said one can't win anymore with empire armies or that they aren't competitive anymore.

In *my* case* I* found substantially higher cost ( 15% ) in *my* armylist vs. the old book that are not substantiated by the new rules
So in *my* case, I have to adapt probably much more to a new playstyle then you had to do. I might have to change my playstyle ( with Empire ) so substantially vs. the past, that this new army may not be anymore what I like to play as empire. 
Hence *my *verdict, that for *me*, the new book is worse than the old.

I have plenty of other armies to choose from if I want to play certain styles ( montrous, characters, elites, magic heavy etc. ). So there's no need for me to try to convert the empire army as I like it, into something which may win but has not much to do with the empire i like. 

Anyway, don't want to see it too pessimistic and certainly I will give it a try in order to find a way to play the empire I like *and* can win my games at the same time , hehe.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i've recently decided to put my empire army together after having a look at the new book (it's been sitting on the sprues for over a year). the only thing i didn't like was the increase in points for the infantry. i thought everything else was pretty spot on. i think they will be a well balanced still very competitive but not broken army. i'm looking forward to playing them soon.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't have a problem with the new book as a rule I've sat down and written a few lists that I think are competative enough to do ok in my area, The only real problem I have is that only 3 units and a few characters survive the cross over out of a 3k list.
That may be down to how I chose to play the list in the previous ruleset as I've never been a fan of mages and prefered the warrior preist/ long rifle combo that mostly nullified the magic phase but even with a slightly different army set up from the norm 60% of my army becoming below par is extreme and the cost of redoing it means my Dwarfs will be getting a lot more table time.
If I was just starting out or had the cash spare I'd still pick Empire but with the large amount of troops that I'd not long finished painting there is no way I'm ready for the excessive changes imposed by the new book.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I really like the new empire book, its one of the first hardbacks I have brought, and its very well presented, model wise I love the Griffon and WILL take a general on one, no question, the demigryph knights I also love and will have 6.

Rules wise, well I don't care to be honest, I only play for the fun so paying more pre or things being less effective are not a concern for me in the slightest as I don't care about all that


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