# The Emperor: Epic Screwup?



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Warning: Possible spoilers

So as I read through the Horus Heresy I'm struck by the sheer incompetence with which the Emperor handles problems with the Primarchs. Sometimes his blunders are so shockingly basic that I can't help but wonder if, the Emperor is as wise and smart as he's depicted, the Horus Heresy was part of a greater plan.

Think about the following elements:

When Magnus is known to have been using sorcery, The Emperor simply orders them to stop. Kinda like ordering an alcoholic to just quit drinking. Worse, the entire culture of Prospero and of the Thousand Sons revolved around using sorcery. The Emperor seems to have made no effort whatsoever to monitor the transition or to assist. 

Later, when Magnus is caught using sorcery again, The Emperor sends none other than Russ, a Primarch who as known to hate Magnus and was on a hair trigger, to bring Magnus back. What did he think was gonna happen? What's worse is that the Emperor should have known if he'd simply ordered Magnus to come home on his own, he would almost certainly have obeyed.

When Lorgar was rebuked for his Emperor worship, again the Emperor showed an amazing amount of naievete' in simply ordering the Word Bearers to quit, offering to assistance in the transition or spending some real time with his son Lorgar to help him cope. Instead it was a simple, humiliating slap in the face to the entire legion and then walked away.

The Emperor placed Angron in charge of _a Legion of Space Marines_.

Knowing Horus' ambition and attachment to him, the Emperor simply, out of nowhere, walked away from the Great Crusade. His decision does not seem to have taken into consideration the impact of morale upon his Legions of Astartes. 

Essentially, the Emperor created a situation to bind his sons to him emotionally, and then stomped all over that relationship in a way that the resulting disloyalty was all but inevitable. How can a being as powerful and as experienced as the Emperor make these simple blunders?

So I'm forced to conclude the Emperor is either WAY overestimated or the Heresy was triggered by him on purpose.

Thoughts?


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

More obvious answer: plot devices.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I feel like this question has been asked alot.

Here is one of my opinions :

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76741

Similar thread :

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67215

And those two are the ones I could be bothered to look up, there are definately more.

In saying that, yet again

1. The Emperor might not have sent Russ, in the old fluff he definately did not.

2. Why is it his job to povide 'assistance' for the Word Bearers to stop worshipping, is it a drug they are on or something? Besides he did offer assistance, he said "Stop bloody worshipping me or I'll destroy all your nice things... I AM NOT A GOD!!!". That should be enough, after all, the Primarchs were created to be warriors. 

3. Same as above with Magnus, he held a court and said explicitly STOP DOING THIS OR ELSE!!!! What else can the guy do?

4. Angron was one of his genetic creations, why wouldn't he put him in charge of a Legion? Alot of Primarch's resisted the Emperor at first, why should he be singled out, because he threw a temper tantrum? He is way too valuable a thing to be cast aside because he is a grumpy boots.

5. He didn't simply walk away from the Crusade, he entrusted it to the Primarchs, (it's what he created them for after all) under the guidance of Horus, who was arguably his closet 'son' whom had saved him from death at the hand of a giant Ork, and yes, who he trusted.

6. You have the benifit of hindsight in all these matters, at the time, each thing you describe was but a tiny piece of a puzzle that would lead to Heresy. And even the idea of a Heresy was alien to the Emperor, that's why he was taken so by suprise.

7. Who is to say he 'cared' for his 'sons', he was above them and essentially alone as a being/thing. He had no equal, so maybe he did make an error of judgement from an emotional side of things, but he wasn't a Primarch, he didn't know how they 'felt', he bred them specifically to conquer the stars, not for some interesting company and fireside chats.

8. I actually hate the Emperor, but you are being way too hard on him regarding his decision making, when as I said you have the benifit of hindsight and also, we don't know alot of HIS motives. Maybe he knew what he was up to but as I have said throughout, made a mistake ... shock ... horror ... yes he is allowed a few.

So those are some of my opinions on the matter, I'll add more as this thread progresses and if it progresses.

(Oh and BTW, he didn't plan the Heresy, no one should ever argue that he did for any reason)


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> I feel like this question has been asked alot.


Oh I assumed it had been, but with ever more fluff coming out, I think there's even more fuel for discussion 



D-A-C said:


> 1. The Emperor might not have sent Russ, in the old fluff he definately did not.


For purposes of discussion let's take the Horus Heresy series as canonical.



D-A-C said:


> 2. Why is it his job to povide 'assistance' for the Word Bearers to stop worshipping, is it a drug they are on or something? Besides he did offer assistance, he said "Stop bloody worshipping me or I'll destroy all your nice things... I AM NOT A GOD!!!". That should be enough, after all, the Primarchs were created to be warriors.


But clearly it wasn't enough, was it? 

When someone is so immersed in a worldview in the way Lorgar and the Word Bearers were, to yank it out from under them is incredibly damaging. Taking that from them leaves a void that, unless filled by something positive, will be filled with something negative. That's exactly what happened. When the Word Bearers' religion was taken from them, they found another one. This is basic, simple human response.



D-A-C said:


> 3. Same as above with Magnus, he held a court and said explicitly STOP DOING THIS OR ELSE!!!! What else can the guy do?


Similar to the above. If the entire foundation of the society of Prospero, including the Legion that came from there, was based upon lore and sorcery, then at the very least the Emperor ought to have monitored the transition, similar to how he did with the Word Bearers in leaving the Custodes. He also would have known that Magnus, the first of his sons to be rediscovered, would not handle that transition so easily. 



D-A-C said:


> 4. Angron was one of his genetic creations, why wouldn't he put him in charge of a Legion? Alot of Primarch's resisted the Emperor at first, why should he be singled out, because he threw a temper tantrum? He is way to valauble a thing to be cast aside because he is a grumpy boots.


He was way more than a simple grumpy boots. He was unstable at best. A good weapon, perhaps, but not a very useful general.



D-A-C said:


> 5. He didn't simply walk away from the Crusade, he entrusted it to the Primarchs, (it's what he created them for after all) under the guidance of Horus, who was arguably his closet 'son' whom had saved him from death at the hand of a giant Ork, and yes, who he trusted.


And yet there's a lot of discontent among the Astartes over the Emperor's leaving. Even Horus felt abandoned and said so openly at times. 



D-A-C said:


> 6. You have the benifit of hindsight in all these matters, at the time, each thing you describe was but a tiny piece of a puzzle that would lead to Heresy. And even the idea of a Heresy was alien to the Emperor, that's why he was taken so by suprise.


True, but remember we're talking about a being who is described as being the next best thing to a god in terms of his power, knowledge, experience and age. 



D-A-C said:


> 7. Who is to say he 'cared' for his 'sons', he was above them and essentially alone as a being/thing. He had no equal, so maybe he did make an error of judgement from an emotional side of things, but he wasn't a Primarch, he didn't know how they 'felt', he bred them specifically to conquer the stars, not for some interesting company and fireside chats.


Then he failed. Magnus was more interested in learning than war. Lorgar was more interested in spirituality than war. Angron was an unstable warrior at best. Fulgrim was vain and easily distracted. 



D-A-C said:


> 8. I actually hate the Emperor, but you are being way too hard on him regarding his decision making, when as I said you have the benifit of hindsight and also, we don't know alot of HIS motives. Maybe he knew what he was up to but as I have said throughout, made a mistake ... shock ... horror ... yes he is allowed a few.


See, I think it's interesting to explore the possibility that the Heresy played into his hands on some level. It actually makes sense to think that he drive some of his Primarchs from his side on purpose, knowing it would trigger a civil war. Maybe he DOES have ambitions to godhood. Maybe a galaxy at peace was not the way to do it and so he triggered the Heresy right at the moment when such peace was close...


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

unixknight said:


> Oh I assumed it had been, but with ever more fluff coming out, I think there's even more fuel for discussion
> 
> Fair enough, that's fine by me.
> 
> ...


Those are some thoughts.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

After reading both arguments (and counter-arguments) I've got to agree with D-A-C on most points.

In reference to the idea of the Emperah starting or even letting the horus heresy happen, What commander sits down and says.."hmmmm, I really wish i could have about half of my troops killed including several of my own son's and my own body mangled & then put into a machine to keep me alive whilst i watch as all that i fought hard for is misunderstood or slowly destroyed"

Nope, can't say I know anyone that would. 

If he is a god, then why have armies to fight in your stead?
If he is a god, why can he be wounded?
If he is a god then why didn't he know this was going to happen?

Hmmm...... looks like them Chaos boys might have been right on the money.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Like I said though, it really isn't his job to babysit the Primarch's through their crisis times, he did intervene that really should have been enough. You also stumbled upon an important argument and missed it. There ARE God's out there, something which the Emperor deliberately covered up. I am a Chaos supporter so I'm heavily biased in my opinions, so I can't develop it much further without preaching. But in saying that the Emperor might have been trying to deny the flow of emotions to the Chaos God's by making all humanity secular and creating a webway like place for the Imperium.


No doubt he was.

But I agree that ideally he shouldn't have _had_ to babysit Lorgar, but obviously he should have made the effort anyway. By humiliating him and then not raising him back up, he drove Lorgar to the Chaos Gods. He should have known this. (I say, maybe he DID know. Consider this: Lorgar was regarded as being weak as a Primarch. Maybe this was the Emperor's way of weeding him out.)



D-A-C said:


> Again, maybe you'll feel it's a cop out, but he did intervene and his orderes should have been followed. Sorry to repeat myself, but it's not his job to be at that kind of thing. His word should have been enough.


Ah, but it clearly wasn't enough, was it? :wink:

Magnus and Lorgar both had very human, very predictable reactions to their treatment by the Emperor. One can say "Well they're Primarchs. They should have just coped with it and obeyed." but that's a fatal oversimplification, as we saw.



D-A-C said:


> Emperor probably thought this was a good thing, he was excellent at warfare, his job. But I'm sure when we get a book on Angron and the World Eaters this will be developed.


Agreed. Can't wait to see! 



D-A-C said:


> Horus didn't openly feel abandoned, he felt overwhelmed by the responsibility as he cried out 'father why have you abandoned me' or something like that at the end of Horus Rising because he was finding the burden of Warmaster difficult. But it was his and the other Primarch's jobs, and why would the Emperor not believe they were capable, even for such a difficult task. He believed Horus could do it, and he could have IMO, but Horus did not believe in himself, that's not the Emperor's fault.


Isn't it? If a kid grows up with poor self-esteem don't we often look to the parents as part of the cause?

Besides, one wonders why he chose Horus. Guilliman seems to have had much greater ability to run large scale military operations on the administrative and logistical level, as well as having the tactical ability.



D-A-C said:


> True, but remember we're talking about a being who is described as being the next best thing to a god in terms of his power, knowledge, experience and age.
> 
> As a Chaos follower this is important, he isn't a God. End of story.


Not a god indeed, but there are whispers that godhood was his goal. To even get close to something like that one would expect him to have mastered something as simple human psychology.



D-A-C said:


> Those were aspects of each ones personality, but make no mistake, they were meant for war, if they failed at this, it is being hinted the Emperor would remove them completely.


Perhaps he should have, then. 



D-A-C said:


> No I disagree as, as I said, he isn't a God. It makes no sense that he would take part in a Heresy against himself UNLESS he had conquered the entire galaxy and wanted rid of the Primarchs. But all eveidence shows he didn't want that. Besides it sounds silly, and makes him seem all knowing, all powerful, which he wasn't as he isn't a God.


I dunno I think before final victory might be a better time. If he'd waited until the galaxy was completely subdued, then some of the issues for which he rebuked the Primarchs wouldn't be relevant anymore, such as Lorgar's handling of compliant worlds. Add to this, once the Astartes ran out of enemies, they also would run out of unifying focus and may very well have fallen upon each other in a manner outside of the Emperor's control. The question of what the Astartes would do once it was over was raised a couple of times in the early HH novels. 

If he did indeed ignite the Heresy himself, then by doing so before the Great Crusade had ended allowed him to decide which Legions would be the most likely to fall away and which would remain intact and loyal.

This, and the wars in the aftermath, also very neatly got rid of the Primarchs for him, thus removing any serious challengers for his throne.




Hooobit said:


> I really wish i could have about half of my troops killed including several of my own son's and my own body mangled & then put into a machine to keep me alive whilst i watch as all that i fought hard for is misunderstood or slowly destroyed"


See, I think his fall and subsequent entombment in the Golden Throne was unplanned. In this, his plan backfired.



Hooobit said:


> If he is a god, then why have armies to fight in your stead?
> If he is a god, why can he be wounded?
> If he is a god then why didn't he know this was going to happen?


He isn't one... yet.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The Emperor demanded perfection from his sons, just like he did from himself. That was his only mistake. He expected them to learn from their mistakes and correct their errors without his help. When they didn't he stepped in and showed them they were wrong. Case closed, move on. But his sons didn't move on, because they had been raised human. 

This error is at the core of every mishandling of the Primarchs. He places Angron in charge of a legion because he expects him to 'get over' being lobotomized and abducted. He expects Magnus to 'deal with' having to rework his entire legion from scratch. He expects Lorgar to 'suck it up' and accept that the Emperor isn't a god. 

The ultimate influence that chaos had on the Primarchs was simply removing them from the Emperor's care. Their exact placement wasn't nearly as important as the fact that they were raised human. 

Also the idea that the Emperor planned the Heresy is pretty ridiculous. He gains NOTHING from it. IF he'd wanted to become a god, why did he pull Lorgar back? The Throne is a prison, and his being stuck there in no way helps his ascension. Removing the Primarchs so they couldn't challenge his throne? They loved him. Horus is the only one ever to have challenged for leadership and according to your theory it's only because the Emperor made him do it. Which seems counter-intuitive. 

In the end 40k doesn't need another "Exactly as planned" guy in the Emperor. He is a corpse and nothing more.


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## M3N0N26 (Sep 18, 2008)

To be fair all this "The Empy started the heresy" stuff is a little silly....my reason being if you wanted the Emp to select 9/18 primarchs that he'd definitely want on side, wouldnt the thousand sons be one? He sure as hell didnt plan their fall.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

thats the thing, why only 9, if you were going to pick the best of the crop and then kill the rest, you would pick all of the one without anything massively wrong with them then have at it.

You wouldn't pick only half then try and have a fair fight, you'd get as much of an advantage as you could then beat the other primarchs heads open with like a rock or a spade or a cricket bat or something like that.

Fair fights are for little girlies, the Emp would have wanted a pub fight. motherwell rules. Horus would have got a pint glass in his fucking eye and a pool cue up his arse.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The ultimate influence that chaos had on the Primarchs was simply removing them from the Emperor's care. Their exact placement wasn't nearly as important as the fact that they were raised human.


This is a pretty interesting point. Certainly it's supported by the novels to a degree.



MEQinc said:


> Also the idea that the Emperor planned the Heresy is pretty ridiculous. He gains NOTHING from it. IF he'd wanted to become a god, why did he pull Lorgar back? The Throne is a prison, and his being stuck there in no way helps his ascension.



Like I said, I think the whole Golden Throne thing would be where his plan backfired.



MEQinc said:


> Removing the Primarchs so they couldn't challenge his throne? They loved him. Horus is the only one ever to have challenged for leadership and according to your theory it's only because the Emperor made him do it. Which seems counter-intuitive.


Well... apparently loving him wasn't enough, was it? 



M3N0N26 said:


> To be fair all this "The Empy started the heresy" stuff is a little silly....my reason being if you wanted the Emp to select 9/18 primarchs that he'd definitely want on side, wouldnt the thousand sons be one? He sure as hell didnt plan their fall.


Absolutely not! Magnus' use of sorcery is what ultimately bound him to Tzeench.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Emperor planned the Heresy is an absurd idea, well and truely. It's said several, several times that he cared for Horus like a son, probably showing him the most humanity that can be seen in the Emperor, he was his beloved son, so much so that he couldn't bring himself to kill him even after all that he had done. And again, why would he plan something so ridicolous, ignite something that would set back over 30,000 years of his work and tedious planning, kill a large amount of his sons, including ones he cared about, completely change everything he made his Empire to be and ruining it in the process, and lastly and most importantly, confinding himself to the golden throne, a complete wreck and shadown of what he used to be, using all of his remaing will to keep humanity going. 

No the idea is ludicrous at best and utterly mind bafflinly stupid with no basis behind it.

Onto other points you made. Have you read Prospero Burns? because it changes almost everything regarding him sending Russ. He didn't send Russ under any pretence of brining Magnus back, he sent Russ to execute him and his Legion, its what the Wolves do, he made it very clear on Nikea that any who defy his edict will be face his full wrath. And even then Russ was not on a hair trigger to fight Magnus, he did not want to do it at all and would rather have brought Magnus in than kill him. And tbh, the Thousand Sons were going to fall anyway, whether it was then or later, it was always going to happen, it had been predestined from their very birth. And Magnus was bound to Tzeentch the very moment he was thrown from Terra, and then even more so when he made his deal with him to 'save' his Sons, damning them even more in the process

I agree with D-A-C on all the other points and he has summed it up well enough, apart from the fact that i don't hate the Emperor. Plus if your basing alot of these feelings and decisions from the HH series, you've got to bear in mind they have almost all been told from the traitors point of view.

Oh and in regard to leaving Horus in charge, i still think it was an ok decision. I'm sure Horus would have been up to the task, even after his initial doubts and concerns, it's not the Emperor leaving that got Horus corrupted after all, not really anyhow.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Emperor planned the Heresy is an absurd idea, well and truely. It's said several, several times that he cared for Horus like a son, probably showing him the most humanity that can be seen in the Emperor, he was his beloved son, so much so that he couldn't bring himself to kill him even after all that he had done. And again, why would he plan something so ridicolous, ignite something that would set back over 30,000 years of his work and tedious planning, kill a large amount of his sons, including ones he cared about, completely change everything he made his Empire to be and ruining it in the process, and lastly and most importantly,


Nobody said the plan went off without a hitch. 



Angel of Blood said:


> confinding himself to the golden throne, a complete wreck and shadown of what he used to be, using all of his remaing will to keep humanity going.


As I've said... repeatedly... I'd call that a backfire, not part of the plan



Angel of Blood said:


> No the idea is ludicrous at best and utterly mind bafflinly stupid with no basis behind it.


Dude, it's just a "for fun" thought experiment. This is getting borderline nasty.

Relax.



Angel of Blood said:


> Onto other points you made. Have you read Prospero Burns? because it changes almost everything regarding him sending Russ. He didn't send Russ under any pretence of brining Magnus back, he sent Russ to execute him and his Legion, its what the Wolves do, he made it very clear on Nikea that any who defy his edict will be face his full wrath. And even then Russ was not on a hair trigger to fight Magnus, he did not want to do it at all and would rather have brought Magnus in than kill him. And tbh, the Thousand Sons were going to fall anyway, whether it was then or later, it was always going to happen, it had been predestined from their very birth. And Magnus was bound to Tzeentch the very moment he was thrown from Terra, and then even more so when he made his deal with him to 'save' his Sons, damning them even more in the process


I don't think the motive for Russ' going to Prospero was spelled out in that novel. The only way Magnus even knew the Wolves were coming was from traveling astrally. All we know was that Russ was coming, not the specifics of the Emperor's order. Remember, in other fluff it's said the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus to Terra but that it was Horus that changed the order to an execution.

If I'm remembering wrong then by all means let me know where it said that in the book, as I read it but don't recall it saying the Emperor ordered Russ to kill Magnus.

But either way Russ WAS on a hair trigger. It showed that earlier in the novel when Russ attacked Magnus and Lorgar had to break it up.



Angel of Blood said:


> I agree with D-A-C on all the other points and he has summed it up well enough, apart from the fact that i don't hate the Emperor. Plus if your basing alot of these feelings and decisions from the HH series, you've got to bear in mind they have almost all been told from the traitors point of view.


Indeed, but I did say earlier for the purpose of this little thought experiment, we're accepting the HH books as canon.



Angel of Blood said:


> Oh and in regard to leaving Horus in charge, i still think it was an ok decision. I'm sure Horus would have been up to the task, even after his initial doubts and concerns, it's not the Emperor leaving that got Horus corrupted after all, not really anyhow.


It weakened Horus' loyalty and resolve. A crack like that in the foundation may well have made the difference, since when Horus was having his "visions" when he was unconscious, the demon showed him a future with no statues erected in his honor, which he took personally. (Of course, we know the REAL reason there were no such statues!)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

unixknight said:


> Nobody said the plan went off without a hitch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not having a good at you or insulting you. I just believe the theory in general is absurd. So, so, so very many many things could not be forseen and go wrong. And frankly there is just no reason for the Empeor to do it all. It's just thousands and thousands of steps backwards. You don't spen ages making these sons to plan for them to turn on you. Even if the Golden Throne didn't factor into his plan, there is no way a heresy ever could have ended well for him. Best result is he survives unscathed and the Imperium is in ruins with quite a few less Primarchs and Legions around. How does it make any sense




unixknight said:


> I don't think the motive for Russ' going to Prospero was spelled out in that novel. The only way Magnus even knew the Wolves were coming was from traveling astrally. All we know was that Russ was coming, not the specifics of the Emperor's order. Remember, in other fluff it's said the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus to Terra but that it was Horus that changed the order to an execution.
> 
> If I'm remembering wrong then by all means let me know where it said that in the book, as I read it but don't recall it saying the Emperor ordered Russ to kill Magnus.
> 
> But either way Russ WAS on a hair trigger. It showed that earlier in the novel when Russ attacked Magnus and Lorgar had to break it up.!


You sure your not thinking of Thousand Sons? Russ makes it very clear in Prospero Burns that he doesn't want to do it. And in all the latest fluff the Emperor sends Russ to kill Magnus. It's even alluded to in Prospero Burns that the Wolves were used before to destroy one of the missing legions. They are the Empeors executioners, quoted right from the book, he knew exactly what he wanted when he chose Russ speciffically to go after Magnus. And it's pretty clear from both Collected Visions and Thousand Sons that the Emperor would bring down his full wrath on anyone who would disobey his edict from Nikea.



unixknight said:


> It weakened Horus' loyalty and resolve. A crack like that in the foundation may well have made the difference, since when Horus was having his "visions" when he was unconscious, the demon showed him a future with no statues erected in his honor, which he took personally. (Of course, we know the REAL reason there were no such statues!)


See your point on that one. Still think Horus would have settled into the role eventually though. There is no way the Emperor could have known an intricate plan was already in motion to bring down Horus and had been in the making for decades.,


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm not having a good at you or insulting you. I just believe the theory in general is absurd. So, so, so very many many things could not be forseen and go wrong. And frankly there is just no reason for the Empeor to do it all. It's just thousands and thousands of steps backwards. You don't spen ages making these sons to plan for them to turn on you. Even if the Golden Throne didn't factor into his plan, there is no way a heresy ever could have ended well for him. Best result is he survives unscathed and the Imperium is in ruins with quite a few less Primarchs and Legions around. How does it make any sense


Hehe the way I look at it, it makes about as much sense as plenty of other "official" fluff/canon.

*cough*Squats*cough*
:grin:



Angel of Blood said:


> You sure your not thinking of Thousand Sons? Russ makes it very clear in Prospero Burns that he doesn't want to do it. And in all the latest fluff the Emperor sends Russ to kill Magnus. It's even alluded to in Prospero Burns that the Wolves were used before to destroy one of the missing legions. They are the Empeors executioners, quoted right from the book, he knew exactly what he wanted when he chose Russ speciffically to go after Magnus. And it's pretty clear from both Collected Visions and Thousand Sons that the Emperor would bring down his full wrath on anyone who would disobey his edict from Nikea.


You're right, I was thinking of Thousand Sons. Thanks.



Angel of Blood said:


> See your point on that one. Still think Horus would have settled into the role eventually though. There is no way the Emperor could have known an intricate plan was already in motion to bring down Horus and had been in the making for decades.,


I agree that, in time, he'd have settled in, but I think if he'd had that time, his arrogance would only have gotten worse as the years went by. On some level, I think Horus' betrayal may well have been inevitable.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> You sure your not thinking of Thousand Sons? Russ makes it very clear in Prospero Burns that he doesn't want to do it. And in all the latest fluff the Emperor sends Russ to kill Magnus. It's even alluded to in Prospero Burns that the Wolves were used before to destroy one of the missing legions. They are the Empeors executioners, quoted right from the book, he knew exactly what he wanted when he chose Russ speciffically to go after Magnus.


Fuck, if _Prospero Burns_ now says that the Emperor sent the Wolves to kill Magnus then I'm getting really fucking annoyed with this shit, as the series is then directly starting to contradict itself. In _False Gods_ it was clearly stated that the Emperor sent Russ to 'escort' Magnus back to Terra. Now the Emperor sent Russ to kill him. I wish the BL could at least get some general unity among their ideas because otherwise the HH series is just gonna turn into another pile of unorganised BS. I mean, a few inconsistencies here and there are inevitable, but this is a pretty major event to screw around with.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I have mixed opinions on this one. 

Most obvious of them, is that I don't think the Emperor tried to create the Heresy. But I think that he did one of the most Ironic things in life. He basically tried so hard to prevent something... that he actually made it happen. I have actually done something similar to myself. :laugh: lol. To a much less extreme sense of course.

Most of my other opinions have to do with how he seemed to have supported primarchs more than others.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Most obvious of them, is that I don't think the Emperor tried to create the Heresy. But I think that he did one of the most Ironic things in life. He basically tried so hard to prevent something... that he actually made it happen.


But then your post answers the OP's question. If you try really hard to prevent something from happening and then through your actions actually cause it to happen, then I'd say that you screwed up.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Fuck, if _Prospero Burns_ now says that the Emperor sent the Wolves to kill Magnus then I'm getting really fucking annoyed with this shit, as the series is then directly starting to contradict itself. In _False Gods_ it was clearly stated that the Emperor sent Russ to 'escort' Magnus back to Terra. Now the Emperor sent Russ to kill him. I wish the BL could at least get some general unity among their ideas because otherwise the HH series is just gonna turn into another pile of unorganised BS. I mean, a few inconsistencies here and there are inevitable, but this is a pretty major event to screw around with.


In all fairness, Collected Visions made it very much look like the Emperor ordered him to eliminate the Thousand Sons. So it would be False Gods changing things around


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> In all fairness, Collected Visions made it very much look like the Emperor ordered him to eliminate the Thousand Sons. So it would be False Gods changing things around


Still, doesn't change my point. Having two books in the same series directly contradicting each other is retarded. Especially for events as big as the attack on Prospero.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I think as far a book being contradictory, unless the information you are given is said by the same character in both books it becomes interpretations of the information they had available at the time.

If the Emperah was going to get rid of his less desirable sons he would have done it only after they achieved everything he wanted of them. Then he would have made a pretty damn elaborate plan to remove the primarchs he didn't want but without totally alienating their chapters, or at least the usefull parts of them.

Until there we have the point of view from all of the involved parties a decent conclusion on the events cannot be drawn yet.

The Emperah just made some mistakes, he didnt screw up, hes only human at the end of the day.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Hooobit said:


> I think as far a book being contradictory, unless the information you are given is said by the same character in both books it becomes interpretations of the information they had available at the time.


Well, Fulgrim seemed quite certain of his facts when he was telling Horus about it. Also, why would Horus claim to have been the one to convince Russ if the Emperor had already told him to do it? Then again, like AoB mentioned, we have both _Prospero Burns_ and _Collected Visions_ indicating that it was the Emperor's decision. 

The only reason I can think of to make any sense of this is that both the Emperor and Horus told Russ to take out Magnus, but that he was *still* reluctant to do it. Or alternatively, if we give the guys at BL the benefit of the doubt, the authors are doing it deliberately, trying to create a sense of mystery about the events. These are the only two workable explanations I can come up with.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

SPOILER ALERT! (Potentially anyway)

I admit first and foremost, I didn't read through this entire forum. That aside, let me put my own thoughts on this matter:

1.) The Emperor, a god by mortal standards, and even by his own standards he cannot deny his apparent divinity to mere mortals, created beings in his own image, as echos of himself. The Emperor did not falter, he did not cry, he did not loose his temper (overly), he does not 'feel' on the same level mortals do. To be blunt and simple -- he probably thought his demi-god sons could grow the fuck up and understand their place in things instead of trying to be 'liberal idealists'. Expanding upon that, when he told Lorgar to stop, he probably thought he did -- mind you the Word Bearers DID change in his eyes, for almost 40 years they were loyal and fierce at a glance. With Custodes there and reporting nothing (mind you they were preventing it by subtle means, but still), he probably thought Lorgar HAD changed his way.

For Angron -- my only thought is that he couldn't slay his own son. Although he did play favorite, because to my knowledge the Emperor ordered the World Eaters to stop using the murder-devices that drove them to borderline insanity. Now I know Angron kept it a 'secret', but honestly ... for a century if not more? The Emperor had to have known, and therefore turned a blind eye. Angron should have been brought to heel and killed.

For Magnus -- The Edict of Nikea was absolute and completely fair. Not to mention the Emperor, if I am remembering correctly, did in fact state he was at fault by ever showing Magnus the Warp. Not to mention the Emperor did grant the Thousand Sons time to change their ways -- they were to return to Prospero and reorganize their Legion. Why should the Emperor have needed to help his demi-god son? These are not Imperial Guard commanders or mortals, the Master of the Imperium has no time to spent trying to sooth the second greatest psyker to ever live. Magnus was a big boy, he could figure it out on his own. Sending Russ was not totally wrong, mind you Horus and Valdor, Commander of the Custodes applied considerable pressure to bring Russ to that point of simply killing Magnus. The slight they'd developed Shriek and years of mistrust had all brought Russ to a point, but even then it took Horus (Warmaster and the Emperor's heir apparent) to convince him to kill Magnus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> SPOILER ALERT! (Potentially anyway)
> 
> I admit first and foremost, I didn't read through this entire forum. That aside, let me put my own thoughts on this matter:
> 
> ...


Very good point on the Word Bearers. There really is no reason for the Emperor to belive they hadn't changed their ways.

Again regarding Russ though. Russ was always willing to kill Magnus, any of his brothers or anyone he was ordered to really. That is why Russ was sent. The Emperor knew that Russ was one of the Primarchs who would follow any of his orders without question, if he ordered Russ to kill Sanguinius, Guilliman, Fulgirm, any of them, he would have done it. He doesn't like doing it or relish the status he has, but he is utterly loyal to the Emperor and understands and accepts his and his Legions role. For all that he still gave Magnus the chance to surrender and wanted him to do so, so that he didn't have to kill him. But Magnus wanted himself and his Legion to be destroyed so they could not play any part in the Gods plans, although ultimately he could not do so


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Very good point on the Word Bearers. There really is no reason for the Emperor to belive they hadn't changed their ways.


Then the Emperor was a sucker.

IIRC in The First Heretic, the Custodes' reports weren't being filtered, they were being blocked completely. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Wouldn't a complete absence of any reports be a red flag?

And even if the reports were being falsified, that implies a very weak information security protocol. Even Microsoft Windows is better than that.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> 4. Angron was one of his genetic creations, why wouldn't he put him in charge of a Legion? Alot of Primarch's resisted the Emperor at first, why should he be singled out, because he threw a temper tantrum? He is way too valuable a thing to be cast aside because he is a grumpy boots.


Two of the twenty primarchs are unknown/expunged so it's quite possible that the emperor felt in these situations his "genetic creations" shouldn't have a legion or indeed exist and be remembered. We'll never know. Alas.

Angron threw temper tantrums, massacred surrendering and weakened foes, assaulted astartes (even his own) and in the limited scenarios where we see him, displayed no tactical abilitiy. The last Primarch to show some of these faults was judged unworthy to lead a legion. His name rhymed with bomb-mad furrs. So why is it wrong to suggest he mightn't have been fit to lead a legion?

It's a fair question as to why he made these mistakes, if the primarchs represent a part of the emperor and Kurze aswell as Sanguinious posessed an aspect of foresight surely the Emperor might have forseen some of the noted bumps on the road.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Bomb-mad furrs?

Currently the evidence points to that it wasn't the 2 missing primarchs genetic problems, it was something with the whole chapter that got them removed from the histories.

To the best of my knowledge, the emperor made the primarchs with some kinda of a pact with the chaos gods who he decided to betray and they then scattered to primarchs amongst the stars. It could have been that the assistance of the Chaos gods is what gave some primarchs different abilities to what the emperor has.

If the Emperor did have psychic foresight strong enough to know that there would be a heresy, why not act? If he had that kind of foresight then the Great crusade would have taken over much more space than it did, predicting the pattern of enemy disposition and tactics, priceless.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

The OP has hit on the fatal misconception that is the basis of many ancient empires, eventually the rulers get thought of as gods and you have to live up to that expectation. Why are the crops failing, the emperor is a god surely he can force crops to grow etc. Even if you tell them you are not a god they still expect miracles.

So..... was the HH the Emperors fault, i'd say yes. 

All he had to do was to forgive.

There are reasons why the Emperor made mistakes and there are reasons the Primarchs made mistakes. Lets face it you like write books about all the mistakes each have made - pun intended.

The Emperor allowed other political influences to come between him and the primarchs, he forgot they were his sons.

Lorgars crime - worshipping the Emperor, not a big crime - solution - forgive.

Magnus crime - becoming a powerful psyker without prior knowledge of the dangers of chaos. Solution forgive him.

Lesser mortals around the throne will see the actions of the Primarchs as a threat to the Empire - what they mean is a threat to them and their hope of controling them.

Who or what is the influence around the Emperor that keep demanding the Emperor to sanction his Legions and punish Primarchs.

All the problems arise from a Primarch behaving in a way that could be seen as wrong, someone spying on them reports it to the Emperor with the insistance that they are punished.

The three major instances that cause the first fractures are the sanctioning of the Night Haunter, Lorgar and Magnus.

All for the same reason - someone near the throne insists that they be punished and the Emperor complies.

The Primarchs all commit "crimes" because they were brought up on planets ruled by chaos to some extent, but they beat chaos single handedly, using what was at hand. 

An example of the problem, a primarch as a new born babe get left in chicago in an orphanage, grows up in a rough area, as a young man sees crime and injustice, but having no education joins the gangs and becomes their leader and conquers all the other gangs and becomes ruler - his rule over the gangs brings order and a slightly more just and honourable criminal empire.
The Emperor arrives and sees what he has done and says "Well Done, I couldnt expected you to have done any better."
He gets a Legion and conquers the galaxy. All is well.
On one planet ruled by perverted and rich aristocrats, similar to the ones in chicago, who profitted from crime and took bribes and did nothing to bring about law and order. The primarch disgusted by this, puts them against a wall and shoots them, fine by me. The nobles on terra seeing a horrible crime against their own perverted kind, go crying to the Emperor, demanding that this horrible "criminal" is brought to justice, because he is a threat to the Empire. So the stupid Emperor needing to keep these aresoles happy sanctions his own begotten son, thus alienating him. 

All the Primarch were brought up on planets and became their rulers using what organisation they could - solo - single handedly. Whether they used crime or religion or the army or noble savages or a mongol horde or sorcery. It would be easy for their political opponenets to use these minor flaws in ruling styles.

The Emperors only mistake was to listen to these arseholes and be turned against his sons. He should never have sanctioned them in the way the rulers of terra wanted him to.

He should have forgave them and told these polititions to piss off.

I would be very happy indeed if the Night Haunter found out who sent the first of many assassins and the Emperor looked the other way while the Night Haunter did some very unpleasant things in revenge. Thus the Emperor could return the compliment and remind the fine Lordy Dandy Lords of Terra just whose Empire it is.

In Nemesis the leaders of all the Assassin guild meet under their secret leader, all wearing masks, in secret subterranaen passages in old terra. Their purpose to assassinate Horus.

Rogal Dorn finds them and kicks in their door and orders them to remove their masks, while expressing his disgust in the use of assassins even against an enemy.

So who is the influence behind the throne who orders the death of Primarchs.

Malcador....... In my opinion the true cause of the Horus Heresy.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Didn't Malcador sit in the Golden throne whilst the emperor fought and killed horus? If Malcador is the cause of the herey then he must of known it would lead to his death.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't think he's saying Malcador orchestrated and planned the Heresy, more of his sanctioning of Legions and the assassinations he ordered are the reason it happend. Either way i disagree, Malcador ordering Kurze assasinated or anyone for that matter had no effect at all on Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Angron, Perturabo, Alpharius/Omegon or any of the traitor primarchs turning traitor, aside from Kurze, who was probably going to go renegade despite the assassins


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Hooobit said:


> Bomb-mad furs?


Konrad Kurze.



Hooobit said:


> Currently the evidence points to that it wasn't the 2 missing primarchs genetic problems, it was something with the whole chapter that got them removed from the histories.


Yes but it COULD have been something else too... And in any case they are technically removed from command which is what I was suggesting has precedence.



Hooobit said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the emperor made the primarchs with some kinda of a pact with the chaos gods who he decided to betray and they then scattered to primarchs amongst the stars. It could have been that the assistance of the Chaos gods is what gave some primarchs different abilities to what the emperor has.


Conjecture (not the chaos assistance part but the second bit), but I suppose thats never been specifically refuted so I can’t really argue. 



Hooobit said:


> If the Emperor did have psychic foresight strong enough to know that there would be a heresy, why not act? If he had that kind of foresight then the Great crusade would have taken over much more space than it did, predicting the pattern of enemy disposition and tactics, priceless.


That's kinda what the OP was about, trying to explain why he didn’t act differently. Put it this way if in Legion the Emperor was able to read John Grammaticus' mind he must have been able to glimpse something of Angron's madness but still he gave him command which, going back to the original posters idea, I also think was a bad idea.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

"Either the Emperor is not as perfect an architect of this new age as we like to suppose, and he is capable of manufacturing nightmares, or he has anticipated threats we can't possibly imagine."

-Combat Master Korine
40th Expedition Fleet
_Prospero Burns_


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Just read Tales of Heresy yesterday, and "The Last Church" gives a small glimpse into the Emperor. Namely the priest ultimately rejecting the Emperors new Imperium because he is a war monger.

As much as we sometimes think of him as the greatest, well, at everything, he was still a warrior.

He may create, and heal, and appreciate art, and alllll of that, but at the end of the day he is a conqueror, and you know, an Emperor. He's calling the shots, and expects it all done a certain way.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

When it comes to the Emperor and his desicions, we are in something of an odd position vis-a-vis what we know. We have the omnipotent voice that gives us the full sweep of history, from the beginning of the Great Crusade, to the dystopian 'now'. we get to see the cause-and-effect, how one desicion seems to force another which cascades in ways that are really unexpected.
But what we don't know about is the Emperor himself. We don't know about where he comes from or what he's done getting from then to now. We don't know about what his final plan actually _is_, beyond it being the long-term survival of Humanity in a hostile galaxy. We get to see the turning points, their set-ups, their happenings and the denouments. We look at how Angron was treated and gasp at how obvious his fall from grace was; we see the Primarchs being kept ignorant about Chaos and wonder just why this was done?
We never get to see the person or reasoning in any of these things, or even if the Emperor os constrained by any limits that push him in directions he'd much rather avoid; that leaves us cold and having to go on what knowledge we do have, knowledge which suggests that the Emperor made some really big errors, ones that an hyper-intelligent, master psyker never should have made. Once we get some framework for the Emperor and his plan for Humanity, we might then be able to judge these actions more fairly. But I doubt we ever will, not to the extent of filling in all of the gaps, anyway. We really shouldn't ask for everything to be laid-out on a plate for us; it's much more fun this way!

GFP

POST 500! WOOOOT!


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Lets not forget the Emperor is essentially just a man, it wasn't an arse load of deamons or angels that merged to become Him, it was men, gifted men, but men non the less.
Like every other man thats ever walked amongst the stars he made a few mistakes, just because of his position they were catastrophic.


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