# The Strongest Chapter in the Imperium, Who would win



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

So when not counting oustide sources like IG, Inquisition and such.
If every chapter pooled all its resources and decided to battle each other to the point of destruction who would win? I am not counting Successors except in thh case of DA as they are known for acting toghther and are still really under the command of the DA Grand Master

The Top 4 I think are:

Black Templars: The Size of the chapter is around 4000-6000 and all the Crusading Fleets toghther would be a good edge in a space battle

The Unforgivin: Seeing as how the DA and their 2nd foundings work toghther often they could bring abuot 4000 marines in a battle not to mention thier fleets and notably the Rock (Thier very large space Fortress)

Space Wolves: Another Large chapter though am not sure how large.

Grey Knights: Though not as large as the others they are without a doubt the best trained and equipped of all the chapters due to their nature. 

There are of course some other contenders, though I think these are most likely amoung the best, and no I am not counting the Custodians as they really are more than marines, being even better than Grey Knights.

So Fluff wise what do you think?


----------



## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

With an estimated strength of 3000, I think I'd have to go with the Grey Knights. They all got force weapons, all are powerful psykers, best trained, best equipped. They are like Custodians: more than marines. Though I think still not as good as the Emperor's personal body guard.


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Ultramarines.
Over half of all Spacemarine Chapters get their geneseed from the Ultramarines and the majority that do owe fealty to Ultramar. Plus the vast resources, not even including the PDF regiments, of their entire sector of space. They would be unbeatable.
End of Story.:victory:


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

morfangdakka said:


> So when not counting oustide sources like IG, Inquisition and such...
> 
> Grey Knights: Though not as large as the others they are without a doubt the best trained and equipped of all the chapters due to their nature.


I'm going to quote Lexicanum word for word on this "...they are in fact part of the Inquisition's Ordo Malleus..." So according to your rules Grey Knights muat gtfo XD


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ultramarines.
For one it is impossible for them to lose, they are like the MC... They just can't lose. Number two there are around 499,000 marines waiting to help whenever they call. Like to say the wolves but they would get swarmed.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would love to say the DA. The 1st and 2nd companies are just sooo cool (Especially the Ravenwing-see them running over entire company of black templers or ultrasmurfs!)


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

I would have to say Templars, if the crusader fleets met up and decided to destroy ultramar, they could without batting an eye lid. They are almost at legion strength and have the rescourses of thousands of keeps across the galaxy. Logistically, this might cause some supply problems but it means they have no centralised organisation which means no quick strikes to break the templars' backs. Then there are the successors...

The grey knights would quite easily kick the Templars in their rebel arses but this will never happen. The grey knights, strangely, have bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, it is almost unfair that the Grey Knights are allowed to take part in this, as it is basically an overkill when you throw Grey Knights at something, the drag down a huge, a very huge titan, with just three of them on the job, they kill deamons, and a lot of them...

They have Psy-Cannon bolts, Force Weapons and those kinds of things, so god damnit, they have already won!

On the second place would be both the Dark Angels and the Black Templars...

Then on the third we would find both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves...

4. Imperial Fists

5. Iron Hands

(The list continues, but for the sake of god, lets jump to the last one...)

999. Genesis Chapter

1000. Ultramarines...


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

I simple love how most people choose to ignore established fluff because of their hatred for Ultramarines. Then use the fluff of whatever Chapter they'd like to say would win to argue for that win.

The OP said "Not counting the Inquisition" so Grey Knights are out of the running. He also brought in successor chapters. This makes this hypothetical situation an Auto-win for the Ultramarines. If it was single 1000 marine chapter vs. another single 1000 marine chapter we could argue the various traits, tactics, training, etc. of various chapters. But on just what assets and successor chapters a given chapter can call it will always be Ultramarines, hands down.

You take approximate # of 1000 SM chapters of which we know at least more then a 3rd are Ultramarine Successors. That's between 333 and 500 (or more)successor chapters. That equals 333,000 to 500,000 Marines. So 4,000 to 6,000 Black Templars ain't gonna do it. Even if you bring the Grey Knights into it, with just 3,000 all the force weapons and pys-cannons in the galaxy won't help you with 111 to 1 odds.

You can't fight the Fluff Facts no matter how much you hate the Ultramarines. :headbutt:


----------



## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

Legion Of The Damned would win


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah I got to say the UM win just because if they got all their 2nd/3rd founding chapters together they could theoretically fight two other chapters by numbers alone.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Guilliman's geneseed is used by 3/5ths of all Astartes (so around 600,000 Marines), if the Ultramarines and their Second Founding Chapters chose to they could easily destroy all the other First Founding Chapters. If you included everybody's Second and Third Founding Chapters the Ultramarines would still wipe the floor with every Chapter not of Guilliman's geneseed from those foundings.

It boils down to-

Include Successor Chapters: Ultramarines Auto-win

Don't Include Successors: Black Templars Auto-win


----------



## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Well, bugger the Ultramarines.

Grey Knights.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I was under the impression they had half the chapters. Hm.


----------



## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

Grey Knights. Sure the ultramarines would have so many..but their the grey Knights. Am I right or am I right?


----------



## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Ultramarines are miserable excuses for space marines. Give the argument a sane writer who doesn't basecoat everything in Mordian Blue, and they'd be steamrolled.

Grey Knights, damnit. Or, for that matter, Black Templars.


----------



## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

I am going along a different route here, instead of saying who would win. Why? Simply because no-one would win!

This is because some chapters know each other so well that it would be a stalemate. A chapter attacks, another knows the tactic and counters. The 1st chapter counters the counter etc.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It wouldn't matter the counter. You can't counter being outnumbered by a force 100 times your size. The ultramarines foce would simply role everyone under. It's an ultra win.


----------



## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Ultra fail.

Honestly, why would the successor chapters even support their miserable failure of an originating chapter, seeing as they'd have obviously lost it if they're attacking the Grey Knights and every other chapter in sight?

More to the point, Calgar's ineptitude, second only to that of good ole Boreale, could probably lose a war against the Navi. With the Navi blindfolded.

His track record is atrocious when it comes to commanding troops. Losing your whole first company and letting the redshirts under your command get slaughtered is not tactical genius. To say nothing of the baneblades and fleet. 

And that's before we get into possession and heresy.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

One day someone will have to retcon the absurd # of chapters in official fluff. Ultras were big Legion, and played little to no part of the HH, so by default 3/5 are Guillimens Gene and therfore UMs? :laugh: Whatever. It seems every new SM dex has 10 to 20 more UM successor chapters added. 

Truth be told that means 3/5 of all Renegade Chapters are Guillimens Gene. :nono: Shame on you. You curroptable blue bastards. So I dont see, at all, evry Guillimen Gene Chapter flocking to Calgar. After all hes just a Chapter Master like the 100s others. 

Now the DAs are the head of the entire Lion Gene stock, and the successors know it. Big difference there in the numbers gaim. The Second Foundings are a front for the Codex Astartes sake.


----------



## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

If its going by Single Chapters, then Grey Knights or Black Templars would win. Otherwise, if it is based on Chapter + Succesors, Ultramarines would pwn.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I love the ignorance of people when they insult the Ultramarines- oh they didn't lose many Marines during the Heresy. 

No but they lost thousands and thousands during the Scouring, which lasted well over 10 times longer than the Heresy- in fact there's only 2 Legions that, potentially, lost a higher percentage of their Astartes, the Raven Guard and Salamanders. Even then it was only by a couple of percentile as all 3 Legions had lost over 90% of their original man power by the end of the Heresy/Scouring.

The UM account for the majority of the Astartes geneseed because they have the purest genetic stock and another small thing, the High Lords actually trust them- they obviously can't trust the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels; the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists are degenerates, that leaves the Iron Hands and White Scars- neither of which inspire confidence to the same level as Guilliman's Sons.

Just becuase 3/5ths of all loyalist Astartes are of Ultramarine stock doesn't mean it's a direct correlation with the percentage of chapters that have turned rogue- for all we know that might be the reason you don't see more White Scars and Iron Hands successors, they keep turning renegade.

Losing your whole 1st Company against millions of enemy troops, yeah I can see how that could have been avoided- please tell me any other Chapter Master put in the same situation could have done better? I know you have an irrational hatred for the Ultramarines *hungryugolino *so unless you're going to say something sane how about you stay out of the argument.


----------



## Squeeking up on people (Jul 24, 2010)

based on GW's marketing tactics: the Ultramarines *gag*


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I love the ignorance of people when they insult the Ultramarines- oh they didn't lose many Marines during the Heresy.
> 
> No but they lost thousands and thousands during the Scouring, which lasted well over 10 times longer than the Heresy- in fact there's only 2 Legions that, potentially, lost a higher percentage of their Astartes, the Raven Guard and Salamanders. Even then it was only by a couple of percentile as all 3 Legions had lost over 90% of their original man power by the end of the Heresy/Scouring.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: That's why he's the Defender of Ultramar :victory:

Haters gonna Hate but they can't fight the facts.

Even if 50% of the UM successors showed up thats 300,000 marines. Hell, if only 10% joined them that's 60,000 marines, no other chapter, even with their successors, can even come close to matching that.

Ultramarines will always be the strongest chapter, hate all you want but you'll never change that.

(to be honest I'm not even that much of a UM fan, my favorite chapter is DA followed by WS and Sal. I just stand up for them to oppose the haters.  )


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> (to be honest I'm not even that much of a UM fan, my favorite chapter is DA followed by WS and Sal. I just stand up for them to oppose the haters.  )


Neither am I, I'm a fan of the Astartes in general but I loathe the sight of such ignorant rantings as you see spewing from, the majority of, Ultramarine haters, so I decided to be their Defender :biggrin:


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The only reason I am an Ultra hater is because of 2 things:

1) they have ridiculous amounts of special characters some of whom are rather minor in my opinion

2) There are just too many stories about them of how the brave few fought off the thousands-Ugghh! Makes me sick since I would rather have a marine story when they just come in, kick ass against orks/chaos/Manchester United and then move on. Is that too hard-really?


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The DA and BA hold some very loyal successor chapters, so my vote would go to one of them.

More specifically, the DA. You have to bear in mind that their homeworld is now a space-bound weapon-planet.

And they are the first founding, thats got to count for something.


----------



## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

legion of the damned would win, they can appear anywhere , then leave


----------



## klebold (Jul 17, 2010)

Pray tell, why do you consider the sons of dorn degenerates?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Orochi said:


> The DA and BA hold some very loyal successor chapters, so my vote would go to one of them.
> 
> More specifically, the DA. You have to bear in mind that their homeworld is now a space-bound weapon-planet.
> 
> And they are the first founding, thats got to count for something.


Not really, they have maybe 6 known successor chapters and that’s it. Simple fact people, if we include successor chapters the ultramarines and their lot would win.


----------



## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

ultramarine's since they were the one's that manage to take out nearly a whole hive fleet


----------



## Starbuck (Apr 6, 2010)

Could the Ultramarines really bring in that many successors? For a fact we know that DA and BA can. Dante got all but one successor to come to his aid, including a renegade chapter, that is loyalty, something that i dont think the majority of the UM successors have.


----------



## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Sadly the UM's would win just because of numbers.

Though they should be beaten by Alpha Legion, even after Guilliman supposedly killed Alpharius on Eskrador the Legion forces the smurfs to flee from the planet inorder to live.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Starbuck said:


> Could the Ultramarines really bring in that many successors? For a fact we know that DA and BA can. Dante got all but one successor to come to his aid, including a renegade chapter, that is loyalty, something that i dont think the majority of the UM successors have.


Most would come the moment the ultramar requested aid. Though it doesn’t really matter, even with half of their number they would still have far more than any other chapter could possible bring to bare.


----------



## Starbuck (Apr 6, 2010)

Quick question, and no its not to be rude i just dont know, how many successors came and helped with the whole tyranid invasion/macragge dealio


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't believe any were requested.


----------



## Starbuck (Apr 6, 2010)

So without an example how can it be said that UM successors would come? or even that the UM are not too haughty to even call them, i mean a hive fleet on direct course and you dont call for help? Tho the BA did send a company


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If they called they would come.


----------



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I have to grudgingly agree that Ultramarines would be to win out of everyone due to the fact that so many chapter's gene seed comes from them and even if not all of them answer the call, a fairly large majority likely would and significantly bolster their strength. However there is something I find confusing, are we talking about one chapter by itself without outside help because otherwise Black Templars win hands down since I they already have so many troops spread across the galaxy. If not it's a very close figt between the smurfs and the zealots.


----------



## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Baron Spikey: I'm happy to say I don't give a damn about your opinion. Enjoy!

Your scheduled insane rant follows below.

Ultramarines have an abyssal track record. Their noted victories have all taken place over the heads of the allies who actually did the work, were against foes repeatedly defeated by others, or were personal heroics. 

Their chapter master almost lost Macaggre despite using every Imperial servant in the area as meatshields (so much for honour), got an entire superheavy company destroyed through ineptitude, and only won through the sacrifice of his own first company, countless mortal troops forced into the defense of his chapter's planet, and a large number of Imperial navy ship. Arguably, the Ultramarines are among the less able and competent chapters to deal with Tyranids, alleged super-competent war veterans aside. Note that many chapters in a similar situation managed to defend their planets and holdings far more effectively and with fewer casualties.

As for Ultramarine tactical genius, it seems to consist of having the troops die in droves while the commanders go off on "heroic" rampages with single combat with the enemy leader. Note that this results in a number of fiascos, not least of which was the affair in which Calgar was only saved through his far more able honour guard sacrificing themselves to shield him.

So much for "God of War". A dark angel scout sergeant with a pair of powerfists and bolters would make a better chapter master than Calgar.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

All chapters who have dealt with tyranid invasion have done so after the first tyrannic war which was fought by the Ultramarines and all proceeding invasions have been smaller then the one the struck Macragge, which happened to be an entire tyranid tendril. The tyranid force war utterly crushed and their objective was achieved with only the loss of the polar fortresses and even then the southern fortress was still active. The northern fortress was totally lost but it also bore the brunt of the tyranid attack, which happened to be lead by the swarmlord. Also, the 1st company wasn't completely comprised of marines equipped with tacdred armor. 

As far as their track record goes, they almost single handedly saved the imperium after the end of the heresy..... and during the heresy their the battle honors were second only the warmaster and the worlds they conquered are some of the most prosperous and efficient world in the imperium.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

klebold said:


> Pray tell, why do you consider the sons of dorn degenerates?


They lack the Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane, so they've degenerated.


Starbuck said:


> Could the Ultramarines really bring in that many successors? For a fact we know that DA and BA can. Dante got all but one successor to come to his aid, including a renegade chapter, that is loyalty, something that i dont think the majority of the UM successors have.





Starbuck said:


> So without an example how can it be said that UM successors would come? or even that the UM are not too haughty to even call them, i mean a hive fleet on direct course and you dont call for help? Tho the BA did send a company


Example requested/
Zeist Campaign (Codex: Space Marines p.g 48):
9 Chapters answered Calgar's call for aid in combating the Tau

Ultramarine Honour Company- a Company sized force made up of the Ultramarines and a couple dozen of their closest successors constantly situated near Cadia. That speaks of a relationship much closer than the Blood Angels Successors.
/Example given



hungryugolino said:


> Baron Spikey: I'm happy to say I don't give a damn about your opinion. Enjoy!
> 
> Your scheduled insane rant follows below.
> 
> Ultramarines have an abyssal track record. Their noted victories have all taken place over the heads of the allies who actually did the work, were against foes repeatedly defeated by others, or were personal heroics.


Such as?



hungryugolino said:


> Their chapter master almost lost Macaggre despite using every Imperial servant in the area as meatshields (so much for honour), got an entire superheavy company destroyed through ineptitude, and only won through the sacrifice of his own first company, countless mortal troops forced into the defense of his chapter's planet, and a large number of Imperial navy ship. Arguably, the Ultramarines are among the less able and competent chapters to deal with Tyranids, alleged super-competent war veterans aside. Note that many chapters in a similar situation managed to defend their planets and holdings far more effectively and with fewer casualties.


Really I can't think of a single one. I know that the Lamenters and the Sythes of the Emperor were wiped out by a much smaller fleet than the one that attacked Ultramar.



hungryugolino said:


> As for Ultramarine tactical genius, it seems to consist of having the troops die in droves while the commanders go off on "heroic" rampages with single combat with the enemy leader. Note that this results in a number of fiascos, not least of which was the affair in which Calgar was only saved through his far more able honour guard sacrificing themselves to shield him.


So basically just like the Space Wolves, or Blood Angels, or Dark Angels, or Black Templars etc etc


hungryugolino said:


> So much for "God of War". A dark angel scout sergeant with a pair of powerfists and bolters would make a better chapter master than Calgar.


That awesome Scout would also make a better Captain than Belial who got his arse handed to him by Ghazghkull and is for all intents and purposes the lesser cousin of the Astartes 'Hero' family tree.


----------



## klebold (Jul 17, 2010)

lol, that's a pretty impressive wealth of knowledge you have there.


----------



## baggy42 (Jul 17, 2009)

good debates, although a few opinions obviously based on likes and dislikes of chapters although that is the beauty of this forum!

If the forces were kept down purely to Chapters, i.e. no successors allowed, then I think it would add a different slant on things - that is not to put the UM down (they are one of my armies!)

I think Space wolves would be a good shout, the insinuation during an interview about "A THOUSAND SONS" was that the Space wolves were designed to destroy other legions...


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Hey guys, bear in mind the OP specifically said we're NOT using successor chapters EXCEPT in the case of Dark Angels.

That being the case, it's easy to make a case for the Black Templars on the strength of sheer numbers.

BUT is sheer numbers the only deciding factor (It might be...)?

You have to include the other elements. Is it just a big, wide open field with the two armies running at each other? Is one attacking the other in a fortified position? Is the space battle a part of it? 

The Ultramarines are known for tactical genius. The Imperial Fists are known for their ability to dig in and fortify. The Dark Angels are known for their mobility. Which factors will have the biggest result?

So it seems to me in any discussion like this what we need is a detailed scenario. 

I still say the advantage goes to the Black Templars in most scenarios, because outnumbering your enemy 6 - 1 is a massive advantage. That, coupled with the fact that the equipment and basic training is equivalent, what you're left with is all numbers and combat style. That makes them the force to beat.

The Black Templars favor raw aggression and zeal over tactics and mobility so in order to beat them you'd have to play to the strengths of your Chapter and to the weaknesses of the Black Templars and try to get a kill ratio of better than 6:1. You won't do that in close combat. You just won't. In fact, close combat against a Black Templar is a recipe for suicide so you may as well leave all assault squads right out of the fight other than to fetch ammo and drag the wounded to safety.

Let me put it this way: If you were challenged to a 40k game, with your opponent fielding Black Templars at 6 times the number of points you get, what would you do to beat them? Can it be done?


----------



## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

hungryugolino said:


> Baron Spikey: I'm happy to say I don't give a damn about your opinion. Enjoy!
> 
> Your scheduled insane rant follows below.
> 
> ...


Props for saying a DA would be better. And in terms of fighting nids... wasn't it a handful of Deathwing Terms that cleansed a full planet from a genestealer invasion. Thus, a handful of Deathwing Terms > Ultramarines 1st company.

If the primarchs were still around, Lion El' would lead the DA to victory because he is by far the best tactican in the 40k Universe. Tactics = Win in this big battle.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

We were including the successors from each because if you could include ones successors you kind of have to include all of them.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Don_Keyballs said:


> Props for saying a DA would be better. And in terms of fighting nids... wasn't it a handful of Deathwing Terms that cleansed a full planet from a genestealer invasion. Thus, a handful of Deathwing Terms > Ultramarines 1st company.


Except of course it was a couple of squads of which only a handful survived, and it was a single cult in a single city- the majority of the enemy not even being Pure-Blood Genestealers.



Don_Keyballs said:


> If the primarchs were still around, Lion El' would lead the DA to victory because he is by far the best tactican in the 40k Universe. Tactics = Win in this big battle.


Well I can't really dispute that because of the loyalist Primarchs that could possibly still be alive he is/was the best field general.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

What about some of the cursed founding chapters? The Sons of Anteus have a mettalic, wolverine-like skeleton. The Black Dragons have grown their own CCWs, we all know about the Legion of the Damned, the Flame Falcons can set themselves alight. I think the Minotaurs are bigger and capable of absorbing huge amounts of firepower. If any of these chapters were at full strength they could surely give anyone a run for their money.


----------



## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't downgrading the UM in my last post, I was just trying to boost the DA .

I do have to agree though if it was including successor chapters, UM would win hands down by pure numbers. Regardless of tactics. If you do 1st Company only from each chapter. UM, DA, BA, BT, SW, Sal, WS, IF, CF, etc, you get a whole different story in terms of results.

It would be down to DA or BT in my books. DA first company is all terminators, dreads and land raiders. Not to mention the hardest, most tested veterans of the DA for they hunt the fallen. I'm not too fimilar with the BT 1st company, but I imagine they would be no joke either. Maybe we should get some Black Library writers to make a book about a tournament between the loyalists to see who is the best .


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

For me it would be the space wolves. You have Grimnars great compnay with potentially over 100 terminators with all the wolf priests, rune priests and iron priests of the chapter. They would nuke everyone.


----------



## vechi (Nov 5, 2009)

I would say either Blood Angels or Ultramarines


----------



## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Ultramarines would win as GW would just change the rules as soon as it looked like they were getting beat.
That aside it's very situational even with or with out the successor chapters, in an open battlefield BA/ Raven guard BT would all suffer lots of early casualties with little return mainly due to the lower levels of heavy weapons BA/ Raven guard type armies could get into combat faster so would suffer less while Templars are bigger so could possibly take the punishment.
Do we include the fleets? Templars could possibly wipe out a few chapters without getting off their ships as being fleetbased and larger than most other chapters they must have a high level of ships. They might struggle against some of the chapters starship bases like the DA and the Ultra's have a whole planetary system to defend.
The Imp fists could defend anywhere against anyone according to the fluff and the fact that the black templars are their successors they'd give anyone a run for their money.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

Salamanders!!



....






....



Once you go black you never go back.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ultramarines do have a pretty good track record with Macragge and Black Reach (Not too major but a defining moment of Sicarius' career), but so do BT, with the Bloody Roads and the Terran Crusade. Each have heroes, Ultramarines with Sicarius and Calgar, against Helbrecht. On an aside, out of all the chapters on Armageddon, Yarrick toom the BT with him to hunt down Ghaz, wonder why this is? Each chapter also has it's failures (Prandium for Ultras and the whole crusade-getting-completely-annihilated-by-DA incident for Templars.)

I think they're evenly matched, the UMs having a complete empire and the BT having a huge space fleet.

Midnight

EDIT: Maybe a better comparison for BT failures is having most of the fleet defeated by one (yes _one_) Ork spaceship before ramming it and disembarking to detonate the engines and destroy it from the inside (who was it who said about UM individual heroics). The Ultras had to deal with an equally large ship, the Word Bearers ship from Battle of the Abyss and they managed it.


----------



## BearsofLeon (Feb 6, 2010)

If this is post heresy I am going to go with either the Ultramarines as they have more resources because they Ultramar, not just one planet. Also they are like the original spacemarines. Maybe even like Pre Heresy Death Guard. Brutal, victory no matter what, everyone can change roles.


----------

