# Huron Blackheart - Is he Worth it?



## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Good Morning all, 

So I have been running around in my head a conversion to build a counts as Huron Blackheart for my Iron Warriors army. (Based on the War Smith Model).. 

But the question I have.. is Huron better than a normal Lord? 

From what I can tell, on the disavantages are 
- He only has 3 attacks and no way to improve this
- No Mark. 
- No ranged shooting attack. 

But. 

He does ensure that I will be infiltrating 1 unit (but not one in a Rhino correct?), and he is quite cheep.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

I have never used him myself, but from what I have read and seen, people don't take him for his combat prowess. They take him for a cheap way to guarantee the infiltration option with their units, which can be devastating.

From what I remember it is D3 units though - Not 1. And yes, they have to be infantry, if memory serves (I don't have the book on me, so I could be talking out my ass).


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Nordicus said:


> From what I remember it is D3 units though - Not 1. And yes, they have to be infantry, if memory serves (I don't have the book on me, so I could be talking out my ass).


Yes, but you can only be certain that 1 unit will Infiltrate... you could have 3 but you will have 1.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

160pts, and you get Fearless, a Heavy Flamer, and Infiltrate D3. It's a lot of points for what he brings to the table. A S6 Lightning Claw with Armourbane is decent though for sitting in a unit going forward.

He is also one of the characters who can make Bloodletters okayish by giving them Infiltrate (but they still suck).


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Ok.. He is good (By Chaos Standards)

So yes I shall get out the clippers and work on a conversion then!


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

I made my "count as" huron some time ago, usually using him to deliver some plasma chosens behind enemy lines. In my experience he makes a good kamikaze with his fellow infiltrators, since he will invariably shot to pieces the moment he appears. A nice combo is to rush spawns ahead and let him arrive via outflank to melt with meltas some shit and improving survivability and damage from the spawns. Also, he is no slouche in melee and can take on any enemy, given the right support. However he is a jack of all trades and need specialists around to be able of doing something. in the case above melee specialists (spawns) and shoot specialists (melta chosens)
About the "rhino" issue: the unit gains infiltrate, hence any DEDICATED transport they are in can deploy along using the same rule. So, no issue at all. 
Now, let's mentally masturbate on this:

Huron

7 Chosens (Crimson slaughter)
5 meltaguns
Draznicht ravagers
rhino, dirge caster
(386 pts)

5 nurgle spawns
3 nurgle spawns
(288 pts)

3 helbrutes ( mayhem pack)
(300 pts)

Under 1000 pts, and you get an idea of what i mean about huron: stupid, unreliable , but hard hitter, tricky and fun as hell!


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

There is also the Hamadrya which he has that lets you cast a random power, which while it might not be that useful, sicne you generate every turn as if they were a psyker you also get the primaris to choose from too (from psyker focus). Or if not he still gets an extra power dice for another sorcerer to use. I personally really like him, and think he is one of the stronger characters in the book because he supports the army as a whole rather than just being particularly killy should you get him into combat


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Huron is my default "lord" option (Unless I wanna run my NM army with Lucius - those are usually themed games when he comes out to play though).

However is he worth taking instead of a sorcerer or one of our other HQ characters/generics?

Answer: most likely, it would probably be a three way tie between him, Typhus (for zombie cultists), or a generic sorcerer (more likely 2 of them)


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

To answer the question of the initial forum title:

In my experience, yes, but only if you build the army wholly around his infiltration ability.

In terms of combat ability for raw points, he's decently flexible: AP2 at I1 or AP3 with the nasty Tyrant's Claw. Still, though he's no slouch, he's not too much to write home about from raw combat statline alone or able to beat dedicated combat monsters reliably (for all that he's one of the few CSM special characters to come with a 4+ invuln), and you can't in any way shape or form rely on his random psychic ability.

Now, I think it's an unfair (albeit wholly accurate) framing to say he can "infiltrate at least 1 unit." More, to my point of view, that "he can infiltrate an average of 2 units." I mean, he has a marine armor save to field less, on a D3, but... bring 1 unit you _must_ infiltrate, 1 unit you'd _like_ to infiltrate, and 1 unit that would be amusing to infiltrate, and 2/3 of the time, you'll be happy.

Like neferhet said, designated transports in no way limit infiltration, by the way, so you could freely field Huron in a squad of 5 CSM who have a Rhino: if you have enough units to infiltrate them, you give Infiltrate to Huron himself, who, being a member of the squad grants them Infiltrate (bearing in mind that it's only a squad with Infiltrate that does have the rule along side a special character who doesn't that's illegal: a unit with one or more minis with the rule can infiltrate just fine, and a special character who has it can therefore confer it to the whole unit*)... and good Tzeentch, this whole explanation has gotten more complicated that I'd like it to be.

Ahem. Huron is worth it, in my eyes, if you build the list around him. He underperforms unless you rely on infiltrating at least 2 units with him, as I see it, and for me, those are generally Daemonettes (whose largest problem is closing the distance before being shot up, but are otherwise gold). He can accompany with some Dirge Caster Rhinos for your main detachment's 2 mandatory troops choices... and that's basically how I've swung it.

Do bear in mind that for a mere 70-ish points more, you can get Ahriman the ML4 psyker who has the same Warlord Trait that you're building the list around--who admittedly only has AP4, vs Huron's AP3/2, and no Spell Familiar, but a crapload of rolls for Invisibility, even after his mark-mandated roll, and a bunch of warp charge per turn--the main advantage Huron offers is his relative inexpensiveness, and if you're thinking competitively, he's still a damn sight more expensive than a Wave Serpent.

If you're forgoing a Lord whose mark allows you to build your list _just so_, Huron might well offer a semi-viable alternative for a player committed to getting Infantry units close enough for a guaranteed T2 assault. That's... a very specific set of parameters, admittedly, but he does perform admirably for Chaos within that very specific set. Complemented by Spawn or Bikers who are geared towards melee too--it might just be enough, meta-dependent, to get you a semi-competitive melee list that you can have fun with and still win with more than half the time.


* for all that there are, admittedly, some corners of the forum that argue that you can't join a special character to a unit until after deployment, so you can't infiltrate that unit, since they can't deploy infiltrated without the special character who would infiltrate them.... which, as I see it, goes so flagrantly against RAI that I'm going to wave it on past.


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Totally not worth it IMO.

Firstly, Infiltrate isn't really worth it and it's D3 units so unreliable. That's why you're bringing him so I'm not really convinced they're points well spent.

Secondly, he is on foot... so where do you put him? In a squad of infiltrated Chosen is an option but, what does he add to them? Not a lot. Plus Chosen used to have Infiltrate for free so no thanks. CSM have little/no transport options that suck so foot-bound ICs are a problem, sure Kharn gets a Land Raider, but where do you put Huron? In a Rhino with CSMs? Meh.

Better than a 'regular' Lord? No, absolutely not... An AoBF JuggerLord or PF/LC Nurgle bike Lord is a billion times more points effective.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

now now... i know that our only COMPETITIVE choice is the Nurle lord biker and the Jugger Axe lord...but c'mon it's not like we are all going to tourneys everyday. He is a jack of all trades, as i said before. unreliable, unable to take on any other specialized character..but adding infiltration to CSM is gold, since he is the only way to do it in a decent point range.
Also, he is a psiker (sort of)!! Plus, he has an awesome model! Let's give some love to Huron!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

neferhet said:


> now now... i know that our only COMPETITIVE choice is the Nurle lord biker and the Jugger Axe lord...but c'mon it's not like we are all going to tourneys everyday. He is a jack of all trades, as i said before. unreliable, unable to take on any other specialized character..but adding infiltration to CSM is gold, since he is the only way to do it in a decent point range.
> Also, he is a psiker (sort of)!! Plus, he has an awesome model! Let's give some love to Huron!


And if people are going to tournaments with the intention of winning, they're not going anywhere fast with CSM anyway.

I think his model is awesome, his portrayal in _Blood Reaver_ and the bits of _Pandorax_ that I've read are awesome, and his rules are cool. Definite yes from me.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Bear in mind what @Vaz has pointed out in a thread in the rules discussion: GW's released an FAQ officially preventing a character with Infiltrate from dragging along a non-infiltrating unit.


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, each to their own etc (I have a list with Warp Talons in after all)... 

But competitive doesn't mean tournaments. Using Huron with mates if he's garbage doesn't mean you'll have fun. Many players play against good players with good armies for fun yet want a chance at winning, I do this (never been to a tournament but I want to play a solid list so I don't get rolled). 

Huron has two major problems, firstly he can't take on other beatstick ICs and really only brings Infiltrate & Fearless to the table for his points cost (the former any other Lord has a 1/6 of getting, and the latter all Lords have anyway). Secondly, he's on foot. Being on foot is the killer, he's just too slow to be any good and too weak to warrant a Land Raider (unlike Kharn or Abaddon).

In an aggressive list of Nurgle Spawn, Bikes, Maulerfiends, Daemons allies, etc (which is as competitive as we get) I just don't see his use over a Lord or Sorcerer.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If you're playing within a very localised meta such as 'a few mates', then chances are your concepts of what will be a 'good unit' will be vastly warped from other people's and I don't think you can say with any authority whether something is 'competitive'. For example, when I talk about competitive lists, I'm referring to West Coast USA tournaments, because that's where Adepticon and NOVA and a bunch of other 40k events are and tends to be what sets 'the trend'. In my local group (of five players), the only time Serpent Spam/Taudar have been on the table is when they've been being rapidly taken off it, and Dark Eldar are doing really well. Dark Eldar are pretty objectively a poor codex in the former scene, and therefore I would declare them 'uncompetitive', but they're dominating the latter as they're very good at fighting the local meta.

I also disagree that Huron is poor as a dude outside of his special rules. His what, Str6 Lightning Claw IIRC is actually a pretty nice thing to be swinging at I5 (hell, Chaos Lord stats are nice); a Heavy Flamer on a HQ model is easy to underestimate but lets him contribute to more than one phase; and giving Fearless and handing out Infiltrate as well as the odd time that the Hamadrya does something useful make him pretty okay. Is he going to solo an army or be an auto-include? Well, no, of course not. Is he worth bringing? I'd say he is, yeah, if for his curveball ability if nothing else. People don't expect Obliterators to Infiltrate; much like the Slaanesh Lord on Steed, he can do a thing which isn't a 'this is amazing' thing that everyone noticed on day one like the Serpent Shield, but they can do something weird that not many people make contingencies to deal with that can impact the game far more from threat than one would imagine.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> that not many people make contingencies to deal with that can impact the game far more from threat than one would imagine.


...though that any Imperial player _can_ handle for about 28 points of Inquisitor with servo-skulls. :ireful2:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> ...though that any Imperial player _can_ handle for about 28 points of Inquisitor with servo-skulls. :ireful2:


I was more referring to the Outflank Lord, but how many Imperial players bring Servo Skulls as a matter of course? Unless I'm bringing a Nemesis Strike Force all-of-the-Terminators-all-day-long, I don't bring Servo Skulls because there's... really not much point other than if you have a non-Drop Pod turn 1 Deep Strike or you *know* you're fighting Infiltrators and Scouts.

Anyone *can* deal with anything, as long as you know what you're fighting before you fight it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Being fair, ANY player can take the Servo Skulls.


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

I'd concede some of that (W3 T4 with a 3+/4++ isn't that spectacular neither is his 1 Warp charge effort) but you ignored my main point... That his biggest issue is that he's essentially stuck on foot. S6 rending and a heavy flamer is alright if you can be the one to decide what that's against, unfortunately being stuck on foot will mean it's likely your opponent who will be deciding what gets into hth with him. 

When I used him I did try him in a Unit of MoT combi-plasma Terminators, that worked 'alright' I guess.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

For what it's worth you can use a Rhino to drive around and torch people with the heavy flamer, but we all know the risks and drawbacks of that cardboard beast.

Then again, with the new erratum on Infiltrate we'd have to waste 2 of the d3 to make Huron able to Infiltrate along with the unit in the Rhino, and there just doesn't seem to be any way that's worth it. Better to Infiltrate 2 units of CSM or whatever than Huron. Ugh. So lame. Was Huron so overpowered along with a unit of Infiltrating cronies? Was _anything_ we could infiltrate? I know I'm whining, and truthfully I never really use Huron, but god damn!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dallas_Drake said:


> I'd concede some of that (W3 T4 with a 3+/4++ isn't that spectacular neither is his 1 Warp charge effort) but you ignored my main point... That his biggest issue is that he's essentially stuck on foot. S6 rending and a heavy flamer is alright if you can be the one to decide what that's against, unfortunately being stuck on foot will mean it's likely your opponent who will be deciding what gets into hth with him.


Er, he's Str6 AP3 Shred or Str5 AP2 Unwieldy in combat, not sure where Rending comes from. The WC1 thing can throw you up some nice stuff; it's not reliable at all, sure, but I think it's got powerful enough opportunities to be worthwhile.



venomlust said:


> Then again, with the new erratum on Infiltrate we'd have to waste 2 of the d3 to make Huron able to Infiltrate along with the unit in the Rhino, and there just doesn't seem to be any way that's worth it. Better to Infiltrate 2 units of CSM or whatever than Huron. Ugh. So lame. Was Huron so overpowered along with a unit of Infiltrating cronies? Was _anything_ we could infiltrate? I know I'm whining, and truthfully I never really use Huron, but god damn!


Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Noise Marines, and Spawn all seem reasonable choices to Infiltrate, none of which Huron was any good joining, and in a less typical list a 20-man block of Slaanesh Enhanced Marines would be a curveball if you wanted them to be a more immediate threat than adding the Slaanesh Lord to them for Outflank.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Er, he's Str6 AP3 Shred or Str5 AP2 Unwieldy in combat, not sure where Rending comes from. The WC1 thing can throw you up some nice stuff; it's not reliable at all, sure, but I think it's got powerful enough opportunities to be worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Noise Marines, and Spawn all seem reasonable choices to Infiltrate, none of which Huron was any good joining, and in a less typical list a 20-man block of Slaanesh Enhanced Marines would be a curveball if you wanted them to be a more immediate threat than adding the Slaanesh Lord to them for Outflank.


Definitely agree with Obliterators, adding an accurate way of shooting something as opposed to deep strike. Noise Marines could be good for a Doom Siren template/blasterspam. The Maulers and Spawn aren't Infantry, unfortunately, so can't be infiltrated. That ability would definitely make the trait much more useful. 3 Infiltrating Vindicators ftw. :laugh:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> Definitely agree with Obliterators, adding an accurate way of shooting something as opposed to deep strike. Noise Marines could be good for a Doom Siren template/blasterspam. The Maulers and Spawn aren't Infantry, unfortunately, so can't be infiltrated. That ability would definitely make the trait much more useful. 3 Infiltrating Vindicators ftw. :laugh:


Ah, the Maulerfiends was simply an oversight on my part (not thinking properly!), and I thought it was simply 3 non-vehicle units - that does somewhat limit it. Obliterators or Noise Marines would be the way I'd go then.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

venomlust said:


> For what it's worth you can use a Rhino to drive around and torch people with the heavy flamer, but we all know the risks and drawbacks of that cardboard beast.
> 
> Then again, with the new erratum on Infiltrate we'd have to waste 2 of the d3 to make Huron able to Infiltrate along with the unit in the Rhino, and there just doesn't seem to be any way that's worth it. Better to Infiltrate 2 units of CSM or whatever than Huron. Ugh. So lame. Was Huron so overpowered along with a unit of Infiltrating cronies? Was _anything_ we could infiltrate? I know I'm whining, and truthfully I never really use Huron, but god damn!


After playing a game against an Eldar / Dark Eldar combo list, another Heavy flamer could be very fun.. they are realy good when fighting raiders.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Uveron said:


> After playing a game against an Eldar / Dark Eldar combo list, another Heavy flamer could be very fun.. they are realy good when fighting raiders.


Haha, yes! The Burning Brand and Baleflamers are so satisfying against Dark Eldar.

Buuuuuurn you wicked little elves!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I honestly that Heavy Flamers or the stronger versions thereof (Incinerators and Baleflamers) are pretty much the only way you're going to be able to deal with Dark Eldar without easily accessible Ignores Cover (Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and any faction with cheap/plentiful Divination access).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ap4 ignores cover is the new meta, and part of why Marines are so strong right now.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Of course, against Dark Eldar, there's always that catch: you don't have Torrent or mobility, so you have no way to get close to those DE Raiders unless they nicely shimmy on up to you without disembarking...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Of course, against Dark Eldar, there's always that catch: you don't have Torrent or mobility, so you have no way to get close to those DE Raiders unless they nicely shimmy on up to you without disembarking...


I'd say that if you don't have any mobility you deserve to lose anyway, and not having any way to deal with anything in cover is _also_ a pretty major flaw in a list.


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Er, he's Str6 AP3 Shred or Str5 AP2 Unwieldy in combat, not sure where Rending comes from. The WC1 thing can throw you up some nice stuff; it's not reliable at all, sure, but I think it's got powerful enough opportunities to be worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Noise Marines, and Spawn all seem reasonable choices to Infiltrate, none of which Huron was any good joining, and in a less typical list a 20-man block of Slaanesh Enhanced Marines would be a curveball if you wanted them to be a more immediate threat than adding the Slaanesh Lord to them for Outflank.


I meant shred, been a good few months since I used him. As noted above Spawn and Maulerfiends aren't infantry. Oblits are uber slow so I'm not sure I'd infiltrate them but I guess that's an option too.



MidnightSun said:


> I'd say that if you don't have any mobility you deserve to lose anyway, and not having any way to deal with anything in cover is _also_ a pretty major flaw in a list.


And that's Huron. He has no mobility, lacking an option to get a bike or steed or whatever makes him redundant in my mind. What a Nurlge bike Lord or AOBF JuggerLord brings is speed and a threat. Huron isn't good enough in melee to warrant a Land Raider like say Kharn so really he's stuck in a Rhino which isn't really ideal. That's why I say he isn't worth it.

I tried him in a list with Fabius to get 20 Enhanced CSMs up the board, they were tough and I suppose they worked but putting over 300 points into 2 HQs that don't do much is a killer. I also tried him with 20 Noise Marines, again, not bad but not exactly good. Maybe if you ran 2-3 big blobs of 20 CSMs but even then, meh... Lack of fearless hurts.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You're complaining about Huron being crap when you're running Fabius and foot marines or blobs of Noise Marines...

I'll ensure I won't be taking tactical advice from you .


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I did try to make an Enhanced Marine/blob CSM list work; either a single big ol' unit of Enhanced Marines in the middle, who suffer from not being able to answer a lot of melee threats despite that being their supposed specialism, and the other of 20 Slaanesh CSM with a Lord on Steed with Burning Brand to appear on a flank and wreak havoc but again, it just didn't have the offensive punch to do all that much that you couldn't do a lot better with a different unit (Outflanking Spawn might have some merit if you could get Reserve manipulation into the list, I guess).


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Haha, Fabius is crap too. The point I was making is I tried Huron with lots of builds. Never said any of it was good or competitive.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You're kinda crap at making points, then.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I ponder. 

20 Marines with Cypher... using Huron to infiltrate them. 

I think the 20 Marines could be swaped out for any-cult troop to be more effective, but It could be the start of something kinda fun.. (But not always competitive)


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Uveron said:


> I ponder.
> 
> 20 Marines with Cypher... using Huron to infiltrate them.
> 
> I think the 20 Marines could be swaped out for any-cult troop to be more effective, but It could be the start of something kinda fun.. (But not always competitive)


Well, now that Cypher's own Infiltrate no longer confers it on his unit--you'd kind of _need_ to, just to run Cypher.

Damnit. Hadn't considered that. Cypher just got a lot worse, since he can't join anyone...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Well, now that Cypher's own Infiltrate no longer confers it on his unit--you'd kind of _need_ to, just to run Cypher.
> 
> Damnit. Hadn't considered that. Cypher just got a lot worse, since he can't join anyone...


Yeah, Cypher can only start with Fallen Angels now which I guess is fluffy, maybe? Still a pain in the ass.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Bah! Never got around to using Cypher, but I guess now I never will. Hit and Run with a unit of Berzerkers or Terminators always sounded so cool, on paper.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> Well, now that Cypher's own Infiltrate no longer confers it on his unit--you'd kind of _need_ to, just to run Cypher.
> 
> Damnit. Hadn't considered that. Cypher just got a lot worse, since he can't join anyone...


He can join any unit that doesn't infiltrate. IIRC, the wording in the FAQ said 'infiltraotrs' rather than units, inying those units deploying via Infiltrate.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I'm not seeing how it's possible to join either an Independent Character with Infiltrate to a unit without it, or vice versa. During deployment, of course. I thought about using them to Outflank, instead, but they would still have to be joined up during the deployment phase.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> Damnit. Hadn't considered that. Cypher just got a lot worse, since he can't join anyone...


Yep.. and he HAS to infiltrate.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Based on the rules as written, it would seem any unit with the Infiltrate rule has to infiltrate. This doesn't mean you can't just place them in your own deployment zone or whatever, but it's either infiltrate or outflank.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Vaz said:


> He can join any unit that doesn't infiltrate. IIRC, the wording in the FAQ said 'infiltraotrs' rather than units, inying those units deploying via Infiltrate.


Infiltrate: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last."

Infiltrate isn't optional, you *have* to use it if you have it. Ergo, Cypher must infiltrate, but can't bring a unit with him thanks to the FAQ.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Based on the rules as written, it would seem any unit with the Infiltrate rule has to infiltrate. This doesn't mean you can't just place them in your own deployment zone or whatever, but it's either infiltrate or outflank.


Well, yes unless your opponent has been able to get some Infiltrateres within your Zone and then a 18' bubble of non-deployment can be formed.. 

It may be a fun use for him though.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

venomlust said:


> I'm not seeing how it's possible to join either an Independent Character with Infiltrate to a unit without it, or vice versa. During deployment, of course. I thought about using them to Outflank, instead, but they would still have to be joined up during the deployment phase.


Depends whether you define 'Infiltrators' as people Infiltrating or those with the Infiltrate special rule.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Depends whether you define 'Infiltrators' as people Infiltrating or those with the Infiltrate special rule.


I guess it boils down to whether or not units with the Infiltrate rule, by default, must deploy by infiltrating. It would seem that way based on the way the rules are written, but maybe I've missed something.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

As Venomlust says: RAW, there's no differentiation between the two as units that have Infiltrate must deploy in their special manner. That's not how I'll be playing it, but that's the rule.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Never even realised that you must deploy via Infiltrate regardless of whether you want to or not. Been playing that wrong since 7th.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

In fairness, it's a fucking stupid rule. I think whatever way you're playing it is better by default.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mreh, before the FAQ there was no reason not to Infiltrate anyway; reactionary deployment is a benefit, that's why you can't have it _and_ first turn.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

An IC with Infiltrate should confer it to his squad. It was hardly an overpowered ability when used that way. 

Part of their secret conspiracy to keep Chaos down! :crazy::crazy:


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Part of their secret conspiracy to keep Chaos down! :crazy::crazy:


Or a reaction to the shear OPness of the new codex that's in the pipes!


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Uveron said:


> Or a reaction to the shear OPness of the new codex that's in the pipes!


That must be it! :grin:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> An IC with Infiltrate should confer it to his squad. It was hardly an overpowered ability when used that way.
> 
> Part of their secret conspiracy to keep Chaos down! :crazy::crazy:


Yeah, Cypher's _so_ sneaky he can get 50 fully equipped Guardsmen right under the enemy's nose without anybody noticing.

It wasn't overpowered, but it was pants on head retarded.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I totally forgot other armies could even take Cypher. :laugh:


It would actually be really cool if there were a few more mercenaries or the like to use. Perhaps the equivalent of assassins, but for the cool factions.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Infiltrate: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last."
> 
> Infiltrate isn't optional, you *have* to use it if you have it. Ergo, Cypher must infiltrate, but can't bring a unit with him thanks to the FAQ.


IMO that's not how I read that sentence. If you felt like being a prick you could set them up last but not necessarily use the set up for infiltrate. Since Scout moves come after infiltrate deployment I see this as a possible line of argument provided you have no other infiltrate units in the army.


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