# A Final Fairwell to 40k, and GW



## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

With the latest release of Dark Angels I have finally decided to call it quits with 40k and GW. Its something I have been thinking about doing for 
some time now and the Dark Angels release has put the final nail in the coffin for me. 

GW has become a company that no longer cares about its costumers it only cares about making as much money as it can. I do realize that the ultimate goal of a company is to make money and lots of it, but the good companies find a way to balance that with staying loyal to their costumers something that GW has gotten away from. Shinning examples of this flaw are 
the last few codex releases and 6th edition. 

Lets start with 6th edition, most of the new/changed rules made models that were good in 5th edition no longer good or as good (ex. Transports, Powerswords, ext...). Now on the surface this looks like GW is just trying to balance the game more which may be partially true, but when you dig deeper you see that it is just a way to force you to buy new stuff if you want to be able to play competitively. 

This theme also continues into their codexes where they continually make models that were staples in the last incarnation of the codex useless while making models that were all but useless the best units in the codex. Again at first this can be written off as just trying to balance the codex but if you look harder you realize its just another ploy to make you spend money to stay competitive. 

If this type of thing happened once in a while I would believe that they really were just trying to make the game more balanced, but it happens with almost every codex release and every new edition of the game. Hell they even find a way to do this with their paint sets, releasing a new set every so often and discontinuing their old ones. 

Now lets get into pricing. I have been playing 40k for about 4 years now and in that time the price of GW products has skyrocketed. A few examples:
when I started playing the starter box (Assault on Black Reach) was $65 about a year after it went up to $75 then quickly up to $90 with the new one being $99. When I started White Dwarf was $6 a few months after I started it went up to $8 shortly after that it was $9 now its $10. When I started the most expensive model was a Land Raider at $55 now costing $75 with the most expensive models costing upwards of $80. Now I do understand that over these four years the coast of making these products has gone up and the value of my dollar has gone down, and that some kind of increase in price is warranted and expected. That being said you can not convince me that these factors justify a 50% to 90% price increase across the board. Oh and lets not forget the new hardcover codexes that cost $50, im sure that making a hardcover book is more expensive but God at least give us the option of a softcover.

If you want an example of how you are being ripped off by GW look no further then new Dark Talon that boasts a price tag of $75.00. The model itself is little more than a Space marine Stormtalon with wings and some DA bits attached. A Stormtalon will only set you back $45.50 so essentially you are paying an extra $30 for wings and some DA bling. Now I know the GW apologists among you will try to say that this price difference is because they use more material and that they had to pay a new sculptor and make a 
new mold for the model. I just dont buy it though the amount of new material used in the model is costing them pennies and the sculptor already had a model that was 2/3 done with Stormtalon, not to mention that paying for a sculptor and a new mold is something they would have had to do anyway if this was a completely new model.

Lets not even get into finecast which is alot better quality wise then the launch, but $75 for 4 models (see: the White Council) is just insane.

Now some of you will say I just laid down the basis for a really good/ successful business plan but like I said earlier the best companies find a way to make money with out screwing their customers. For example most of us gamers have X amount of $ that we can afford to spend on 40k each year. Now if GW releases new models for a new codex that I like im going to spend money on them, im going to buy paints, im going to be interested in other armies. In other words I dont need GW to force me to spend that money on their products by making my old stuff bad with new codexes and new editions...im going to spend that money on their products anyway. So they dont get anymore money out of me by doing this in fact they get less because they piss me off. I know I am not the only one who feels this way.


So after weighing all these factors and a few more that I dont feel like getting into I have decided to take my money and time elsewhere. Mainly im taking it to Privateer Press a company that does stay loyal to their costumers. PP is in the process of taking some of their metal products and converting them over to resin. In doing so they have actually decreased the price on some of their minis. Example: they have been taking all their old metal warbeasts for hordes and turning them into resin kits that give three options on what warbeast to make. The metal kits with one option cost $45 the new resin kits with three options cost $35. We all know that if this was GW the prices would have went up not down as they would have used the switch as an excuse for increasing prices (see: finecast).


I will be sending a copy of this to GW.....not that they will care....which is part of my point. 




Now with this all off my chest I wish all of you on this forum good gaming and good health. My years on this forum have been fun I have learned alot and I hope I helped some of you guys learn somethings as well. *cheers* Heresy :drinks:


Please note that I understand that this is a rant and a rather long one and that most of you dont care or disagree with most of what I said. You guys certainly have the right to your own opinions but I do ask that your responses to this thread be as well thought out as my post was. In other words try not to bash or resort to personal attacks towards me or anyone who expresses that they share my opinion.

*Viscount Vash: * This thread has already been reported and yes, Technically it is against the forum Rules.
Title now changed.

That said I took it as an opportunity to point out we do in fact have a Privateer Press sub-forum that could do with so input and activity.

Also as an aside it (as a thread) is starting to develop into a interesting discussion on GW verses Other Companies attitudes towards gaming, sales and product support. So for now I'm letting it slide.

This is not to say that it won't get locked later if it turns into a GW bashing trollfest.

*Vash.*


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

The prices are a joke yes. But if you have models from when there were cheaper, and you sell them on Ebay today, you are more likely to get more money than what you actually paid for them. 

Personally I have been priced out of GW for some time now, I only buy models with the money I make from selling them. 

Also, a lot of the bits from the DV set are awesome and very cheap on Ebay.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Can I have your stuff?


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Technically _The big Goodbye _ thread posting is against the rules but I'm going to ignore that for the moment.

It is a shame that GW has lost it's appeal for you but your post raises a few things I feel duty bound to point out.

40k changes as time goes by thats a given but 4 years is not enough to see the picture like some of us old farts do.

The thing with units becoming useless with a Dex release or an Edition is it is somewhat circular in nature, vehicles seem to switch from brilliant to underwhelming every edition or two, the cultists I foolishly sold with the arrival of CSM 5 are back in CSM 6.

Hell, imagine my face when Crons first came out as those nasty metal minis and I had got rid of 100 Chaos Androids for next to nothing six months before.

What I'm really saying here is stash it if you have space and don't need to finance your PP purchases with the sale of your GW army. This is why I always suggest Vanilla SMs for newer players as the minis date well and it's an army that always does ok in rule changes.

Well that enough on the GW front from me I'm not here to change your mind on that really.

On the leaving Heresy front I will try to change your mind though.

We do have a Warmachine and Hordes section here and it would be great to see it have more life in it.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=224

What better way to keep in touch with your Heretical buddies than to keep visiting and letting us know how your PP journey goes, by posting project logs, battle reports and helping us expand at the same time?


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

While I agree with you about the pricing, GW has largely cornered the market. And while Privateer Press does have balanced rules compared to GW (or so I've heard) they don't have enough market share to challenge GW. 

But the white council - I hear a lot of grumbling about it. It's expensive, but 4x the price of finecast HQs. So not as ridiculous as a lot of people think.


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## wingazzwarlord (Jun 11, 2011)

Much of what you say make sense, however.

1. The price of everything has risen, we are after all in the middle of a double dip reccesion. T make an example my weekly grocery shop now costs £95 where as it was £60 when my daughter was first born (3 years Ago)

2. GW despite being a large company is not rolling in dough. They release their financial report every year as part of there freedom of information act and despite making a profit its not a huge one.

3. Codexes change to keep the game challenging and, if you thumb through the opening pages of the 40k rulebook it eludes to the fact that GW bases most of its releases on people being able to play out a narrative rather than make competative lists.So if your a competative torni player then just like any sport or competative activity you have to be prepared to pay through the nose for the kit that you use. Im a keen golfer and a decent set of clubs come in at about £1000, which will last me roughly 4-6 years(like a codex) and if i want to keep up with the latest technology then im forced to change to compete with other players. 

4 my final point is that it is also down to the gamers to shop around a bit. There are plenty of online retails and independant stockist who will do the kit at 15/20 % of cost makeing your only big outgoing your new rules sets (rulebooks/codexs).

I will finish by saying that it is always sad to see a hobbyist become disillusioned and leave the hobby, but from what iv seen on the forums your a skilled modeller and painter and have always given sound tactical advice and it will be a shame for the hobby in general that you have thrown in the towel 

All the best


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

scscofield said:


> Can I have your stuff?


lol no



Viscount Vash said:


> Technically _The big Goodbye _ thread posting is against the rules but I'm going to ignore that for the moment.
> 
> It is a shame that GW has lost it's appeal for you but your post raises a few things I feel duty bound to point out.
> 
> ...


First im sorry about the post, its been a while since I have refreshed my self on Heresys rules, but thanks for letting me have my say and not locking my post. 

As to your GW points you kind of reaffirmed my post. The fact that GW is always flip flopping with their units making them good this edition then bad the next and then good again may be ok with some people but its not for me. I have a hard time letting units that I spent my hard earned money on spent time assembling and painting sit on a shelf and collect dust waiting to be useful again. 

As to heresy I guess I can try to get some conversation going in the warmachine/hordes section. Thanks for pointing that out. 



DivineEdge said:


> While I agree with you about the pricing, GW has largely cornered the market. And while Privateer Press does have balanced rules compared to GW (or so I've heard) they don't have enough market share to challenge GW.
> 
> But the white council - I hear a lot of grumbling about it. It's expensive, but 4x the price of finecast HQs. So not as ridiculous as a lot of people think.



True but at the same time its not a single HQ its a boxed set and their other finecast boxed sets go for $45-$55.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

You really need to have a look at australian prices. We have more right to bag gw than anyone. I agree with most of your points but we have it worse. Believe me.


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## Eva (Mar 16, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> You really need to have a look at australian prices. We have more right to bag gw than anyone. I agree with most of your points but we have it worse. Believe me.


Hahaha! And you Sir, need to look at the New Zealand prices!


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## Shady ed (Sep 9, 2010)

New Zealand doesn't count.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I am right done with buying anything from my local GW. Not only are the prices ridiculous, but I was actually kicked out of the store for meeting a guy there to talk about him making me a table/give him money to start it out. I was even there to buy some shiny new necrons, and have been there quite a few times over the last two years I have picked the hobby back up. There's a few smaller stores that generally seem to offer around 20% under GW prices, and eBay is a close friend of mine.

I'll not be stopping the hobby, and ultimately my money will go to that company in the end. At least I'll save a couple bucks and help out a local store owner pay his bills.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I think your experience is more about that particular manager ntaw rather than GW as a whole


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Oh yeah, I'm not saying GW is employed by dicks. Money is the main interest, sure, but they're not all jackasses like the guy that kicked me out of the store. It's also not the only time or GW store that I have been treated off hand like that. Just more of my specific reason for going to other places to get my hobby supplies.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Fair enough, I get most of my stuff from the Us for much the same reasons


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree with the OP about pricing and the business practices of GW being preposterous. However, I don't think that 4 years is enough to make a judgement on such a matter. Many of us who play SoB, BT, Tau, Eldar have been waiting far longer and sustaining ourselves but are still here... 4 years is like... the wink of an eye. 

My suggestion is to find people you enjoy playing with more. 40k is more a part of my life than just some hobby. I play 40k with my two best friends, my boss, other friends... I can on any day go into the FLGS and see a friendly face and bullshit about the game, or just go there and paint if I need to get away from the house for a while. 

What I am trying to say is, the game is what you make of it. How much the models are worth is about the enjoyment YOU get out of them, not some equation about time+materials=price. 

So for you, that worth has reached 0, and you are fed up. But there are ways to improve that worth for you. You don't need to get the next best thing out there. Hell my FLGS let a guy play in a tournemant who's models were made out of papercraft and were complete proxies, he didn't pay a thing for them other than paint, paper, ink and glue. 

So my suggestions:
1. Don't play at GW locations. They are far too stickler to the rules and expect you to invest too much with too little return. 

2. Find a local hobby store and start a gaming club, make a group for it on Facebook where you can all interact and have fun. 

3. Make some friends with these people, hang out, have them over with some pizza and food and discuss the game. 40k should be about more than showing up, winning, and going home. MAKE IT FUN!


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Arcane said:


> I agree with the OP about pricing and the business practices of GW being preposterous. However, I don't think that 4 years is enough to make a judgement on such a matter. Many of us who play SoB, BT, Tau, Eldar have been waiting far longer and sustaining ourselves but are still here... 4 years is like... the wink of an eye.
> 
> My suggestion is to find people you enjoy playing with more. 40k is more a part of my life than just some hobby. I play 40k with my two best friends, my boss, other friends... I can on any day go into the FLGS and see a friendly face and bullshit about the game, or just go there and paint if I need to get away from the house for a while.
> 
> ...


Arcane has hit the nail right on the head here buddy, the hobby is what you make of it, for instance I play marines but will not buy any of the flyers as in my opinion they are just horrible models, do not care how important they are in 6th I'll do without, sure it is nice to win but I collect and play with what I like, I love the D.A will get the new dex but sure as hell will not get any of the new figures I do not like em at all, when it comes to the hobby I go my own way, hope you hang around with heresy in the Warmachine section and let us know how you get on!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I feel bad, but a lot of what you say is true. Even the fluff has gone down hill. But I will say, I feel in a lot of pain at abbadoning something I've lived with for a very long time. 

Thats why I HATE when people say take it or leave it, as though our points don't mean anything. I hope that somethings interest you in the future and bring you back.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

ckcrawford said:


> Thats why I HATE when people say take it or leave it, as though our points don't mean anything.


Second that.


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## omgitsduane (May 14, 2008)

I agree with everything said here. Being a chaos player from just before 4th edition, I am disgusted by the newest codex and am tempted to hand in the chaos towel as it were over how the power creep only exists for units that are brand new and expensive.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

A few of the saddest things I've witnessed are players dropping out of the game throughout the years. I feel like most of us are the last players of what was. It sucks when you remember taking breaks after the games and going next door with the pals to get lunch, only to come in a few years later and realize none of them have any interest in the game and your the last. It feels weird, it feels even more weird when you know the fluff behind the game more than the sales associate. I feel out of place and I haven't seen any players really involved with tournaments. Maybe I'm going to the wrong stores, but I've been a regular in like 6 in the last 3 years and the spirit is hardly there.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Oh yeah, I'm not saying GW is employed by dicks. Money is the main interest, sure, but they're not all jackasses like the guy that kicked me out of the store. It's also not the only time or GW store that I have been treated off hand like that. Just more of my specific reason for going to other places to get my hobby supplies.


Hate to say it but it is there job to kick you out: you really shouldn't be discussing second hand sales or competing personal projects in store (remember that GW do sell boards... albeit incredibly over-expensive pieces of shit). Its also slightly dodgy legal ground if you start selling on GW property and they know about it...
In the store I used to work at we took the slightly more relaxed line that people could discuss trades (as long as it wasn't too obvious and certainly not in ear shot of non-regulars) so long as no actual exchange of either money or goods happened in shop: a big step down from the jackass manager who was there when I started collecting who would kick you out for even mentioning eBay (in any context).

As for the prices... yeah, its getting ridiculous. Made worse for me as I left the company about 3 years ago so lost staff discount just before all these price rises started hitting. Collection wise it means I'm much more willing to troll eBay waiting for good deals then just dropping down to my local store as I might previously have done: about the only thing I normally buy in store now is Black Library stuff and the occasional army book (everyone loves a shiny new codex).
When I started my latest army (imperial guard) I went tallarn for a couple of reasons: I decided not to spend my money on new GW kits that I did not think were value for money and instead I have a metal army which I can paint strip at will and will keep its second hand value (meaning if I sell it I'll not make much of a loss).

More of a pain is that the price rises have pushed a lot of people at my local gaming club away from GW: when you can have enough Dystopian Wars models for a good game for £50 why would you spend £250 at GW. Now dwars and flamers are just taking over: there's probably even as much epic played now as fatasy. This is one of many reasons why I'm looking to get rid of quite a bit of my GW stuff.

Equally annoying is that my local store is becoming less and less profitable, so GW keep cutting things: first was its gaming night, then it shut tuesday and wednesday. The store is almost always empty now as regulars have less and less reason to go in, meaning the atmosphere has suffered, hurting sales: I used to drop by when I was unemployed and there were always a few people around so I could either sit and paint in good company or grab a game or two... nowadays I don't bother taking models in unless I've arranged a game with someone.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i started playing warhammer back in 1987 and it was the fantasy game more then, i started painting a year or two later but stopped when time, life and other things prevented me from doing it. Although i have always got the books when they came out, i have taken up painting again. I enjoy it although on a limited budget i do treat myself once a month to new figures. if you enjoy something dont let anything else take it away from you,.
unfortunatly in todays market prices will rise and we will have to pay for our hobby but good luck with whatever you do


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Nice thread, and it echoes my quite possible departure in the near future. I'm not selling my crap or anything, but if the Tau codex comes out with a major departure in fluff and rules and the models suck as much as the Chaos and Dark Angels ones did then yeah, all my future money lies on other game systems.

Me and my local group have been debating making a 2nd/5th/6th edition hybrid rule set and tweaking codices to basically reinvent the game where we feel it should be, and liberating ourselves from the oppressive hand of GW's money printing scheme.

Prices skyrocket because the very foundation of Games Workshop is that idiotic local store concept, the bufoons simply refuse to accept the internet is here and that people who are 3000 kilometres from the nearest store shouldn't be subsidizing their drapery and unnecessary staff.

But yeah, good luck with PP, they know where it's at. Balance, prices, free downloadable rules and altogether a much more in-sync-with-reality strategy. That company is going to flourish now that GW is taking turns fanraping each and every established army fanbase (except Spess Muhreens of course)

I even think PP's minis are more well made, even if the art direction is a little bit niche. It definitely grows on you.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

I remember when a Rhino cost $25 and a Land Raider was $45. True, the MSRP has gone up drastically, but you can still find reasonable prices on Ebay. GW may have a cutthroat corporate mentality, but 40K remains a quality game, filled with appealing models, populating an intriguing universe. I'm willing to stay in. I guess it also helps that I'm a casual gamer. I don't feel the need to invest in armies built purely to win, spending hundreds of dollars in a Rhino Rush marine army, only to become irrelevant in a new edition. People like that, I have trouble feeling sorry for.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I hate to say it, but I am in total agreement with the OP. The price rises, the "I'm Irish" tax and the crap new edition have driven me into the arms of a GW competitor for the first time in more than 20 years. I've been playing Flames of War since their 3rd edition came out early last year and find it a much better more balanced system than 6th Ed 40k. 

I do find it sad that a hobby that has been a staple in my life for over 20 years has been ruined for me in the space of a year by the frankly absurd practices of GW. It's not just me either. The club I play with every Thursday has seen a massive fall off in the 40k hardcore gamers since 6th came out. This time last year there were close to 30 players taking part in a New Years league, this year, no one has shown any interest in playing at all.

I understand the whole "They're a business" argument, but one of the keys to any successful business is doing your best to hold on to your existing customers. From my experience they have done the opposite, driven away the most important customer, the veteran gamer who has a job and disposable income, as opposed to aiming at kids who might only get money or GW presents at Christmas or birthdays.

I will not be selling my beloved Space Wolves, but for the first time in decades they have been packed away in the top of my press while I paint/play with other companies models. I will eventually get back to them, but not any time soon.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Tim/Steve said:


> Hate to say it but it is their job to kick you out: you really shouldn't be discussing second hand sales or competing personal projects in store (remember that GW do sell boards... albeit incredibly over-expensive pieces of shit). Its also slightly dodgy legal ground if you start selling on GW property and they know about it...
> In the store I used to work at we took the slightly more relaxed line that people could discuss trades (as long as it wasn't too obvious and certainly not in ear shot of non-regulars) so long as no actual exchange of either money or goods happened in shop: a big step down from the jackass manager who was there when I started collecting who would kick you out for even mentioning eBay (in any context).


Hey man, I get your point, I really do. But you even called your old store's manager a jackass. There's a point where you're doing your job and a point where you're being a dick. I had literally said "hey, are you Dave?" and he spoke up, from across the room over his customers, to kick us out of the store without asking anything about what we were doing. I was literally just there to meet him because he doesn't know the area and I suck at finding my way through malls.

Again, not something for people to dwell on. Just a personal thing I have noticed in the few different GW stores I have been to across the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) over the years I have been involved with the game that, in conjunction with rising prices, have made me personally shift my purchases to other stores as opposed to franchise GW locations. The stores seem to be too much sticklers for rules, so my hobby goes where it is happy...the point I was hoping would come across. Arcane definitely said it better, my apologies for my apparently blunt and nerve touching wording.


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## WaLkAwaY (Dec 5, 2012)

To the OP, could people just not play with an older set of rules? Or are the competitions put on only by GW that demand the newest iteration of rules?

I guess I really have no understanding about how the actual board game works. I always figured it was something like D&D. How hard would it be for someone to start a club that works off a later set of rules? I think maybe like a car club you know you have people that love Corvettes and the only club is in California and costs 500 to join so someone decides to make one in Nevada and it is only 50 for dues. Then as time goes and people hear about it it gets bigger and bigger until it can actually be recognized as an accredited car club with sponsors and such but still remaining true to its inception as being an affordable alternative.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

For me it is a matter of enjoyment vs cost. If you enjoy something a lot then sometimes you might accept the extra cost. Sometimes you don't. For me thus hobby is still vastly cheaper than any other hobby I would do. 

On that note though I freely admit the majority of my 40k stuff came from EBay. It is how I keep the cost acceptable for myself. I also picked a set theme (Nordic Myth) to base all my armies off of. In terms of SM models all of them will be based off the SW kits. It will help cut cost more while looking cool in the long run. A bit of GS and a different paint scheme will make the same models vastly different and avoids the omg new model costs.


The can I have your stuff comment was my stock answer to goodbye threads. If you have reached the point that your doing a send off then most likely your not happy in the hobby or game or whatever the forum is based on. I have always felt that if something that is supposed to relax and entertain has stopped doing so you should quit. Otherwise it just sours the memories of it and leaves you bitter.

Good luck in you future hobbies and know that some if us will still be here if you decide to come back.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

I agree with Scscofield, the enjoyment of the game (for me) far outweigh the costs. Occasionally, there is something I want and I may pick it up but not usually for the high price that certain retail outlets feature it for. An LGS in my area does offer small percentage discounts for non-direct order items. EBay is a good place to purchase, but, if the cost of item + shipping = retail price then I may just pick it up at a retail location.

Wookie, I'm sad to hear the hobby was ruined for you. I've been in that state with Magic the Gathering, which is why I play 40K now, and understand where you're coming from. However, I hope you do not leave the boards entirely.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

I'd like to begin by saying that most, if not all, of the OP's points were completely and totally valid. Yes, the prices are going crazy. Yes, GW are screwing over their customers. Yes, they change the rules all the time and they release new models just to make more money and blah blah blah...

However, as one keen-eyed commenter already pointed out, hobbies, sports, interests in general will always require you to pay through the nose to maintain them. Golf was the example given by wingazzwarlord, but there are numerous others.

For example: I take a shine to trading card games as well as 40k, and if you want to play at all competitively in TCG's you'll have to get used to the fact that the rules, the cards available, and the prices of those cards all change very regularly. In Magic: The Gathering (which I don't play, personally), they release a load of cards around autumn and say "Have at it!". If you like to play Standard format (possibly the most popular), you then have 12 months to collect all the cards you want/need, build the best deck you can (which, if you're ultra-competitive, could cost hundreds of pounds quite easily off the secondary market), and play the game. After those 12 months, all of those cards are then *no longer Standard legal* (meaning you can't use them), and the process repeats. Yet Magic: The Gathering remains one of the most popular trading card games ever.

Another example: Let's say you're an engine-head and you want to "soup-up" your new car. You want the best stereo you can get, you want to change the paint job, you want decals, you want neon lighting under the sides NFS-style, you want fancy rims, you want big tires... the list goes on. You think any of that would be cheap? Hell no. Cars are expensive. And if you should so happen to accidentally damage your car on the roads, you'll have to spend a buttload more cash just to fix it, never mind redo the work. But people still do it. Lots of people.

Now, there are those fledgling games people have mentioned in this thread (of which I am unfamiliar, for the most part) which are apparently affordable, balanced, and fun. To that, I have but two words: "For now." My advice is not to expect that if these companies get to GW's size they will continue to price things so cheaply, or make rules that benefit the customer's wishes. A quick glance at the major corporations behind the production of goods for other interests will show you that GW's business practices are not that out of the ordinary. GW raise prices and change rules sets to benefit their monetary gains, but so do plenty of other companies.

So you have some options. One is to switch to a "cheap" "hobby", i.e., one which has rules that aren't governed by a corporation. Chess is an example, as all you really need to play chess is a chess set and a person to play with. Keep finding people to play with and your problem is solved... except that chess is very, very different to 40k, or any other tabletop wargame, in that (i) there are no miniatures to collect and paint, and (ii) with a game like 40k you can tailor and build your list to be the best based on the current rules and metagame, whereas in chess both players have the same armies and it's entirely down to the decisions of you and your opponent - no dice involved here, folks!

Another option is to continually leap from bandwagon to bandwagon on what the cheapest mini-producing company is. This might be viable, except you might leap onto a bandwagon soon-to-crash. That probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.

In the end, it's up to you. These are just my two cents, and to an extent my counterarguments to all those saying GW need a stern talking to about their prices and their rules sets.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Prices skyrocket because the very foundation of Games Workshop is that idiotic local store concept, the bufoons simply refuse to accept the internet is here and that people who are 3000 kilometres from the nearest store shouldn't be subsidizing their drapery and unnecessary staff.
> 
> But yeah, good luck with PP, they know where it's at. Balance, prices, free downloadable rules and altogether a much more in-sync-with-reality strategy. That company is going to flourish now that GW is taking turns fanraping each and every established army fanbase (except Spess Muhreens of course)
> 
> I even think PP's minis are more well made, even if the art direction is a little bit niche. It definitely grows on you.


This is what I have been trying to get across for the last year now but unfortunately GW apologists get all in your face and offended when you question their beloved company's business model. 

GW is like a music record label and instead of getting with the times and selling mp3s and offering universal downloads or ad solutions on youtube they are jacking up the price of their albums. This is a true way to lose as we have seen in the entertainment industry. 

The whole inflation thing is bollocks too. Their price hikes appreciate faster than inflation at the now yearly rate. With the faultering dollar I imagine business for gw is going to look much worse in 2013 outside of Europe. Unfortunately instead of finding solutions to this GW will just continue raising prices and stick to their iCrap downloads model and lose more customers to PP this year.

It's driving gamers like myself and others to recasting or using third party models for our own personal armies. What is the point of Citadel models when they cost as much as Forgeworld or high quality resin 3rd party models like Scibor?


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## Noise Marine (Dec 18, 2012)

Can _I_ have your stuff?


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

My store manager (while I may not like him because you have to book paint stations, and there is no instore gaming unless there is an event or you have booked) is very open about a lot of GW practices, from what I've heard it's even got mor expensive for staff too, apparently the old staff discount used to literally the amount of plastic that was used, so it was dirt cheap like a Tau battlesuit was 32p or something ridiculous, now it is just 50% because resin is cheaper than plastic. 

I remember the early days of apocalypse when you used to get 3 monoliths for £60, now they are like £50 each. Now I see why they would do things like make hardback codicies as it is better 'quality' but certainly not an extra £10 more. Same goes for the models, while the newest ones seem to look really good (with the obvious exceptions *cough*mutilators*cough*. I actually prefer paperback because it is a lot easier to flick through for a quick rules reference.

Another way they have tried to appear to add 'quality' is with WD. A few years ago WD was good and about £3.50, it then went down hill a lot and now they have revamped it with 'better paper' and made it £5.50 and all they have done is make similar to before (maybe better I don't know), but tried to make it look like they have more content by having practically a double page if not more for each new release.

I've now found myself going to other companies such as wayland, for discount GW stuff and ebay if it is something I'm not bothered about already painted/war beaten.

back to the OP, I am certainly very curious to see GW's reply could you possibly tell us - if they actually reply at all.

Sorry to gripe but it would seem I'm not the only one who has had enough. However it would interesting to see how many people would return to GW if they dropped the prices, I would certainly buy more direct and more often as I won't need to wait for birthdays/ Xmas to buy anything.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I hate to say it, but I am in total agreement with the OP. The price rises, the "I'm Irish" tax and the crap new edition have driven me into the arms of a GW competitor for the first time in more than 20 years. I've been playing Flames of War since their 3rd edition came out early last year and find it a much better more balanced system than 6th Ed 40k.
> 
> I do find it sad that a hobby that has been a staple in my life for over 20 years has been ruined for me in the space of a year by the frankly absurd practices of GW. It's not just me either. The club I play with every Thursday has seen a massive fall off in the 40k hardcore gamers since 6th came out. This time last year there were close to 30 players taking part in a New Years league, this year, no one has shown any interest in playing at all.
> 
> I understand the whole "They're a business" argument, but one of the keys to any successful business is doing your best to hold on to your existing customers. From my experience they have done the opposite, driven away the most important customer, the veteran gamer who has a job and disposable income, as opposed to aiming at kids who might only get money or GW presents at Christmas or birthdays.


I agree with this. I don't understand their logic. So it seems that they prefer trading off veteran players for the new uncommitted players. I really don't think they are doing well in terms of business. They have to do this every edition essentially. Perhaps they regret their past actions but figure the veteran players are gone? I find it hard to believe they are doing better than when I first started. And when I first started they had crap ass models. Yet I remember during tournaments the veteran players were always the ones to buy something new and glue it up together so fast just to put it on the table. Thats old veteran players. 

Warhammer has essentially become a bunch of uncommitted players with a few "returner veterans" that have kept the game alive. Its pretty much us people on the forums that have kept them alive but they are losing us one by one.



Jace of Ultramar said:


> I agree with Scscofield, the enjoyment of the game (for me) far outweigh the costs. Occasionally, there is something I want and I may pick it up but not usually for the high price that certain retail outlets feature it for. An LGS in my area does offer small percentage discounts for non-direct order items. EBay is a good place to purchase, but, if the cost of item + shipping = retail price then I may just pick it up at a retail location.
> 
> Wookie, I'm sad to hear the hobby was ruined for you. I've been in that state with Magic the Gathering, which is why I play 40K now, and understand where you're coming from. However, I hope you do not leave the boards entirely.


I'm glad to here you are still having fun, but do you have friends that still come with you or meet up with you at the store? If you do, I envy you. Its not so much friends, but people that you know that have been in the game for a while, really helps motivate you when you decide whether or not you would devote more of your life to enjoying the game.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

falcoso said:


> My store manager (while I may not like him because you have to book paint stations, and there is no instore gaming unless there is an event or you have booked)...


I wonder, with many stores like this, what is the point of even having physical GW locations? Single company stores are just impractical these days. Why go to a tiny location that only sells one companies product like a GW when you can go to a larger hobby store which gets more traffic, has more products and often offers cheaper products. 

To make matters worse GW banned selling their products online in the USA, so now it's done through email and phone calls... even so places like Miniature Market are doing great and offering 20% discounts (which I recommend if anyone is interested). 

This archaic way of business reminds me of the Imperium it's self.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

See I would happily buy from GW with their prices if they did some kind of loyalty card system. or something. When there are various websites and such selling GW stuff cheaper what incentive is there to buy from GW. I've brought exclusively from GW my entire hobby time buying from GW - with the exception of eBay and buts sites for stuff I can't get from GW - and it's now come to a point where iI simply can't afford to buy from them.


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## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr (Apr 3, 2012)

a loyality system for discounts would be the ultimate way to gip the newbies and keep the loyal fans of the past, but they would have to start fresh still for everyone if they started it, which defeats the purpose kinda, but eh.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

falcoso said:


> My store manager (while I may not like him because you have to book paint stations, and there is no instore gaming unless there is an event or you have booked) is very open about a lot of GW practices, from what I've heard it's even got mor expensive for staff too, apparently the old staff discount used to literally the amount of plastic that was used, so it was dirt cheap like a Tau battlesuit was 32p or something ridiculous, now it is just 50% because resin is cheaper than plastic.


Not quite: there was a staff discount system that worked on weight, but it was a very long time ago. At the time staff could go into the GW warehouse in Nottingham, pick bits out of their troughs and then pay for the weight of lead/white metal (god it's sad I remember the switch to white metal) that the models contained.
No idea when that ended but I would guess sometime in the early 2000s: I still occasionally run into the odd member of staff who was working at the time... but they are rare. GW treats its staff about as well as it vets so staff turnover is kinda crazy (locally if there are more then 5 people in store chances are ex-staff outnumber staff).


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Really don't get what all this is about you know.

Some fun FACTS:

GW Prices are too high.

Prices in Euro
Infinity : Unit of 6 : 35.95
Warmachine: Unit of 5 : 38
GW : Unit of 5 (Grey Knights) : 27 Terminators : 36

Add to that the fact that only 1 of these companies has manufacturer owned speciality shops and while I can't comment on the Warmachine stuff I do know that Infinity Mini's have few if any options for how they can be built where the GW GK kits can be built as 4 different unit types with a butt tonne of other stuff to individualise them


GW Has lost touch with the community

Lets compare attitudes shall we?

Nothing officially from Infintiy on their website, they do maintain a forum however. I also know from personal experience that they are very approachable and amicable to submissions.

From the GW Website:
_"Thank you for your interest in submitting your work to Games Workshop. Our hobby is a creative one that provides fertile ground for imaginations like yours. Every time you play a game epic stories will unfold, new characters will join the fray, planets will be saved and lands invaded. Many hobbyists want to share these experiences with us, whether that's a brand-new army you have painted, a stellar conversion of your army general, an exciting battle report you fought in or anything else. For these types of submission your first port of call should be the Games Workshop blog 'What's New Today'. See below for contact details and requirements. You can also write to the White Dwarf team at the postal address found in every issue of the magazine.

Alternatively, if you wish to make a more specific submission to Games Workshop then please see the information in each section below. These contain details of what you should send to us and what will happen to your submission. No matter what type of submission you wish to make it is important that you read and understand the following information before sending anything to Games Workshop."_


From Privateer Press

_"So I got this sweet idea about this new game called AwesomeSauce! a.k.a. Unsolicited Ideas.
Please do not send Privateer unsolicited ideas for well anything. Chances are we may already be working on something similar. The last thing we would want you to believe is that we stole an idea from you. If, despite our best prayers here, you decide to send something anyway understand that it will most likely be thrown out without consideration and will not be treated with any sort of confidentiality whatsoever."_

You can make up your own minds on that one.

I do not have the knowledge, interest or time to compare the fluff from each of the above but would be interested to hear if there is someone who does.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks Guys. Im really happy/sad to find out that im not the only one that feels this way. Sometimes on this forum if you say anything negative about GW you get bashed and people act like your opinion doesnt matter, so im glad that we can have an adult conversation about this.

In my original post I might have given off the impression that im a big torny player because I used the word "competative" alot.....that really isnt the case. I dont go to any big tornys, I mostly play for fun and If I do play in a torny its small local tornys. What I meant by "competative" is just a list that gives me a chance to win _some_ games in the local environment. Unfortunately the local playgroups around me have alot of torny players and they always have ultra competitive lists, so in order for me to even have a chance my lists has to be at least semi-competitive. I know some people say that winning and losing isnt important as long as you have fun....and while there is some truth to that, getting creamed every time you play drains the fun out of the game. I feel like this game has become Magic the Gathering where it usually is I have more money than you so I win. 

As to people who are concerned about me leaving the hobby.....dont worry im not. 40k isnt the hobby, wargaming is. Im just choosing to take my money to a different company. Im still going to thoroughly enjoy the hobby of wargaming. 


As to comparing the cost of 40k to Warmachine/Hordes it isnt even close. Sure you can pick out this GW kit and that PP kit and say wow you get more in the GW kit for the same amount of money, but your PP models get you alot higher % of what you need to play a game for that same amount of money. For instance I got to play in my first Warmachine/Hordes torny today at a pretty standard point cost. My total army for this torny cost me about $100 and I ended up placing 3rd out of 12 players. So I was able to play competitively for only $100 something you could never do with 40K. 



falcoso said:


> back to the OP, I am certainly very curious to see GW's reply could you possibly tell us - if they actually reply at all.


I will let you guys know.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm glad to here you are still having fun, but do you have friends that still come with you or meet up with you at the store? If you do, I envy you. Its not so much friends, but people that you know that have been in the game for a while, really helps motivate you when you decide whether or not you would devote more of your life to enjoying the game.


As a matter of fact we (myself & friends) do meet each month for a 1,500 point game at a (non-GW) LGS. Why non-GW? Well, one of the friends playing owns the LGS. One of the other friends is a former LGS owner and every now and again brings someone new to an understanding of the game by trying to get new blood in it. Thus far, none of those people have mentioned the prices, but, I'm sure that's because they're new or possibly have a little more excited feelings over starting new games.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Threads like this annoy me to no end.

First off if you want GW to take you seriously spend the extra few seconds and make sure you spell customer right. 

Secondly. I fail to see how making things obsolete is forcing you to spend more money? Unless you're the kind of person who only purchased 2000 points of models and runs a single list chances are you are going to be buying more any ways.

Third. You example with the dark talon is flawed. 

Purchase a storm talon and dark angel it. Some plasticard will make nice wings. unless you're anal beyond belief most people will appreciate a homebrew projects.

There's a huge section in the 6th Ed rule book of kit bashing I really suggest you look at it. 


In short you're wrong.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Imwookie2 said:


> So I was able to play competitively for only $100 something you could never do with 40K.


That's rubbish, GW brought out the Kill Team stuff where you can have a game with $100 worth of stuff, if not less. There are also smaller games mentioned in the rulebook for 6th. Try playing an Apoc size game with Infinity ?

40k can be both. 

Point is the miniatures ARE cheaper or at worst the same as other company's.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Threads like this annoy me to no end.
> 
> First off if you want GW to take you seriously spend the extra few seconds and make sure you spell customer right.
> 
> ...



Lol.......and we were doing so well having an adult conversation about this.



Firstly if threads like this annoy you so much....why read them?

Secondly let me say that you're right I could take a storm talon and convert it to a dark talon but your failing to see my point. The point is GW is charging an extra $30 for those wings and DA bits which is just them bending you over because they can. If you want to support a company like that...go ahead its your choice I have just decided not to anymore.

Lastly this isnt something that I can be right or wrong about....its my opinion, you can choose to agree or disagree with it.....but I cant be wrong. Plus if you actually read through the responses on this thread you would have seen that about 80% of the people who responded agreed with me in one way or another so.....


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

ntaw said:


> I am right done with buying anything from my local GW. Not only are the prices ridiculous, but I was actually kicked out of the store for meeting a guy there to talk about him making me a table/give him money to start it out.


I'd just like to point out that it's not necisarily the manager's fault here. I worked in blockbuster for a looooong time, (i earned 2 of their long service badges) and we had the same policy. Customers could sell or exchange goods with each other but not within the store. Technically if you are selling anything within a registered retail premises the product that is sold becomes the responsibility of the premises owner/business owner. Therefore if you exchanged money within the store and bought a table which then collapsed on a small child, the GW branch could technically be held responsible. 
Stupid i know but that's the unfortunate reality of the retail industry in the UK.
If however you exchanged money outside the business threshhold then you're fine.

On Topic:
I've shopped on ebay for my GW fix for years, aside from rulebooks i don't buy anything brand new apart from Bits for conversions from Bits and kits.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> That's rubbish, GW brought out the Kill Team stuff where you can have a game with $100 worth of stuff, if not less. There are also smaller games mentioned in the rulebook for 6th. Try playing an Apoc size game with Infinity ?
> 
> 40k can be both.
> 
> Point is the miniatures ARE cheaper or at worst the same as other company's.


Im talking about standard point cost games here which in 40k is in the 1250-1500 point range. At that range you can not build a competitive list for under $100 for most armies.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Threads like this annoy me to no end.
> 
> First off if you want GW to take you seriously spend the extra few seconds and make sure you spell customer right.
> 
> ...


the price increase has been huge.

even in the latest codex, GW has continued its practice of making the models that have sold well subpar. 

codexes are silly expensive.

these are all legitimate complaints.

6th has brought me back from quiting, but i am still on the edge myself in regards to how the next few codexes come out. if the trend of power creeping restarts, i might be switching over to better rule systems and better consumer regard myself. 

i won't create a thread like this myself, but i understand the frustration. 

at the OP creator, welcome to PP. i play cryx, circle, and trolls myself. come to our forgotten corner of the forum. new members are always welcome. k:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Imwookie2 said:


> Im talking about standard point cost games here which in 40k is in the 1250-1500 point range. At that range you can not build a competitive list for under $100 for most armies.


Games are that size because that is what people choose to play.

Point is you don't have to. 40k can model one on one right up to chapter on chapter.

Fact is most people like to play the larger games. So if they take up infinity pretty soon they'll be dropping a bomb on minis to make their army bigger.

Pity they will all be identical


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

lokis222 said:


> codexes are silly expensive.


Compare what you are getting tho' No one could say that the new CSM Codex is not good value for money.

I agree tho' that there is no choice if you don't want to pay for a premium product with all the add ons rather than just the bland rules


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> lokis222 said:
> 
> 
> > t
> ...


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Really don't get what all this is about you know


You are right in regards to the UK/Euro market but I must disagree in regards to the rest of the world. 

GW's attitude here in the USA has been very disheartening the last few years. They no longer support sanctioned tournaments or prize support (which other games companies do), do not allow retailers to sell their models online (so they can have a monopoly over sales and cut out the middle man) like Wayland Games does in Europe and frankly just don't "get" the Western Hemisphere's market. 

This attitude is what has mostly put me off from buying from them directly. Their prices do not even accurately represent the true exchange rate! They are literally price gouging for other currencies. This wouldn't be a problem if we in the Western Hemisphere were allowed to buy models from Europe but the embargo inhibits this.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

lokis222 said:


> check out the pp codexex. thirty bucks when i bought mine... not much more these days IIRC and absolute works of art... and they are optional. you don't need them to play the games. my cryx codex... only one i bothered to buy is gorgeous.



I think they are $35 now but your right you dont even need one to play....I dont own one for my Legion army. Lets not forget the main rulebook.....what is GWs now $75......Hordes $30. Yes I know you can get the small rulebook for 40k cheaper on ebay....you can also do the same for Warmachine/Hordes.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I want to be upfront and honest before I get too long-winded: I like the things GW makes and love the things in the books, even if the fluff gets silly. 

Now some people like to call me an apologist, but I just look at this all differently than a lot of people do. I've accepted that the hobby isn't going to be cheap, after all it's a hobby. Hobbies are innately expensive as they have a start up cost, a maintenance cost, even a "ooo, shiny!" cost. Hobbies are luxuries regardless of what they are, and the fact is at the end of the matter that when you get down to complaining about cost you're really bitching about a First World Problem.

Now before I get flamed, I'm not claiming that GW's pricing thrills me, or that I like paying it (after all my only army at the moment is my Sisters of Battle army), but at the end of the day, it's my choice where to spend my money, and what to spend it on. I can't place blame on GW for me deciding to give them my money. They aren't responsible for the choices I am, they are just responsible for the products they make. If I spend too much on GW products (especially ones I don't want, can't afford at the time or don't need) I have to take the blame because I'm the one who went online or went to my FLGS and handed my money over. As an adult I'm the one responsible for my money, not GW so if I'm spending too much it's my own fault in the end.

That said, I've found the best way (for me) to handle the cost is to set a budget for myself. I only have so much money to spend each month and part of that is set aside so I have some money for big releases and limited editions when they hit. If I overspend on this, it's my fault, not GW's that I've spent too much on their products.

If you've reached the point where you can't find enough enjoyment in the games you play for whatever reason, then you probably should move on. If you still like the game you'll find a way to make it work regardless.



ckcrawford said:


> I agree with this. I don't understand their logic. So it seems that they prefer trading off veteran players for the new uncommitted players. I really don't think they are doing well in terms of business. They have to do this every edition essentially. Perhaps they regret their past actions but figure the veteran players are gone? I find it hard to believe they are doing better than when I first started. And when I first started they had crap ass models. Yet I remember during tournaments the veteran players were always the ones to buy something new and glue it up together so fast just to put it on the table. Thats old veteran players.


Honestly I think GW is basically relying on it's veteran market right now. Who has the most invested in their games, is least likely to let go and are mostly of an older market and holding jobs? The veteran players. Sure they may might make some money off of the new players (after all they'll drop some money on a starter box, and some paints and the like) but I think the steady, reliable money comes from the vets. We're the ones who are interested in the collector's editions of things, want the limited release models, and care about the silly things the company does. We're their steady pay check, I think they're just noticing it more now that people don't have money to drop on games they don't know about so easily these days.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Really? You're picking up your toys and going to go play Warmachine/Hordes instead?

Why do you think it is cheaper? Cause you need fewer models? Yeah, not like they're trying to push to larger games or anything. Battle Engines, Colossals, Gargantuans -- you think those are supposed to be in 35pt games? Hardly.

They want you playing 75-100pt games now and larger soon enough. Even the GenCon games skewed higher these past couple years and people really took note of that. It was a shock.

Model-by-model pricing, Privateer Press is no better. Look at the costs. Fact of the matter is, Games Workshop is just now CATCHING UP in some regards to Privateer Press pricing.

Pyg Burrowers, which are tiny, $44.99 for ten. That's $4.49 a piece.
Plague Bearers, twice the size (and detail), $29.00. $2.90 a piece. Not to mention the variety of pose, bits, etc.

Skorne Immortals, 10 models, $59.99! And talk about a simple set of models!
High Elf Archers, $35.00 for 16(!!) and just as boring as Skorne Immortals.

Yes there are comparisons the other way, but it balances out honestly.

At first I felt the new Dark Angel flyer was way over priced. But then look at the model, in volume, size, detail, etc and compare it to a Colossal from Privateer Press. Actually they take up similar space, no? And the Colossal is $125 instead of $75. Is it really $50 "bigger"? No, that's just the way they priced it.

The DA flyer will sell a hell of a lot less than the Storm Talon, and they priced expecting that. If you can make it up in volume, you can drop the price. Privateer Press does it, and admits it, which is why FA 1 models are more expensive than FA U.

I've played Warmachine since before Prime was released in 2003. I have a sizable Menoth army, same for Trollbloods and a newly assembled Cryx army. I was a tourney organizer (Press Ganger) for a few years as well. I love the game, but I don't pretend it is the best thing since sliced bread. I just now started playing Games Workshop games.

I like the games I play, and I play the games I like.

This is just Barbies with guns, man. No one gives a shit if you stop playing in the sandbox.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Yet, a collosal doesnt invalidate your older models. All their new stuff is optional to play with fluff and comp wise. Not must have. That is a big difference.

Also, that collosal is 20pts. slmost half of a 50pt army. A 1500pt army in 40k is at least 1000$.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Invalidate older models? As in you can't use them any more by rules or by uselessness in meta?

Specific examples?


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

lokis222 said:


> Yet, a collosal doesnt invalidate your older models. All their new stuff is optional to play with fluff and comp wise. Not must have. That is a big difference.


Exactly

The 75pt-100pt games are like apocalypse games in 40k. The standard tornys are still in the 25pt-50pt range. 

As to pricing your not looking at what % of your army those units are costing you.....Your getting more bang for your buck with PP stuff.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

notsoevil said:


> Invalidate older models? As in you can't use them any more by rules or by uselessness in meta?
> 
> Specific examples?


Useless in both.

ie carnifex or daemon prince vs warmahordes anything via mk1 to mk2 and the battle engine update and the collosal update.

Former sold well and now suck. Latter, some OP stuff got balanced but everything can still be used in play. Some things work better with certain casters but overall few wasted units.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes you can still buy GW online in the US, they can even be listed online. You just can not have a shopping cart system rigged to the GW section. Not sure where it came out that you could not buy that is false. 

Also 1500 point is not $1000, probably around the 400 to 500 range depending on the Army. GW is over priced, even as a fanboy I can agree with that. But as far as hobbies go it is still pretty cheap. Try getting into airbrushing. For a cheap set up your looking at $300. For a good quality set up I spent $400 on a single airbrush alone.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Imwookie2 said:


> The 75pt-100pt games are like apocalypse games in 40k.


One only need look at the standard size games played at GenCon to know the direction they want us to go.

Not comparable to Apocalypse at all, actually.



> As to pricing your not looking at what % of your army those units are costing you.....Your getting more bang for your buck with PP stuff.


I don't understand your statement. The OP and most of this thread is bitching about GW prices being outrageous. When in fact, they're the same as Privateer Press for the most part.

The number of models used by 40k versus WM has little to do with it, OTHER than initial buy-in.

But we're not talking initial buy-in.



lokis222 said:


> Useless in both.


Your example only mentions meta, not actual, factual, invalidation due to rules update.



> carnifex or daemon prince


I know dick about Carnifexes, but Daemon Princes were made from "the only choice for Chaos meta" to "expensive, but badass with a Black Mace".



> Former sold well and now suck. Latter, some OP stuff got balanced but everything can still be used in play. Some things work better with certain casters but overall few wasted units.


Warmachine/Hordes is in my opinion the best balanced wargame. I'm a huge fan.

But Privateer Press isn't your friend. They want nothing but your money and they will continue to scale the game, and if need be, shift the meta to sell more stuff.

When they first arrived on the scene they had a underdog, "punk" sort of feel. That wears off. They're just a company.

I spend a lot of money with BOTH companies. I just admit that's all they want me to do.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> Yet, a collosal doesnt invalidate your older models. All their new stuff is optional to play with fluff and comp wise. Not must have. That is a big difference.
> 
> Also, that collosal is 20pts. slmost half of a 50pt army. A 1500pt army in 40k is at least 1000$.


I was a little curious about how true this statement was, so I threw together an army in army builder. Since almost everyone starts with Space Marines this is what I used to base it on.

So here's the list (it's not ultra optimized, but it's something I have seen variants on on the past):



> HQ: Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour (190 pts)
> 1 Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour, Psychic Hood; Terminator Armour; Force Sword; Storm Shield; Epistolary; Warlord; Codex Psychic Powers; Null Zone; Smite)
> 
> Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (200 pts)
> ...


So how much will this cost exactly (all prices in USD)?

$411.25 from GW (before shipping and taxes). Add in $7.31 for three Frost Axes (for the Power Axes), $43.86 for Missile Launchers from a Bitz Site, and a Storm Shield costs $4.06 (all bits costs come from Bitz and Kits and converted into USD) and our grand total is $466.48 for the entire army (assuming you don't use "Count-As" to cover your missing bits). Rounding up to cover taxes and shipping (assuming you pay for it) we can safely say you can get a full 1,500 point army for $500 USD.

If you play Marines.

Now granted this gets a lot worse for armies like Orks and foot Guard, but the point is that it can be done.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Yes you can still buy GW online in the US, they can even be listed online. You just can not have a shopping cart system rigged to the GW section. Not sure where it came out that you could not buy that is false.


Yeah so you can only sell it via Email or over the phone, which is hardly "online". Email might as well be an sms text message or a fax is equivalent. 

Suffice to say you can no longer purchase GW models in the USA within your browser window in a world wide web based store. AND you cannot advertise prices which may differ from GW, or I believe prices at all... so essentially it's a mail order system.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Yeah, that policy is bogus, no doubt about it.

Thankfully, I buy from an online store that apparently doesn't give a shit about that, AND is 25% off. Only thing they don't really do is use pics, but hell, they don't for PP stuff either (and PP is usually 28-30% off).


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

notsoevil said:


> Yeah, that policy is bogus, no doubt about it.
> 
> Thankfully, I buy from an online store that apparently doesn't give a shit about that, AND is 25% off. Only thing they don't really do is use pics, but hell, they don't for PP stuff either (and PP is usually 28-30% off).


I think you'll find most places that still do this actually sell the stuff "secondhand" and that is why they don't come in boxes


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

I just got 2 Heldrakes, 2 Forgefiends, 3 PB boxes, 1 box of Nurglings, 2 Cadian and 2 Zombie boxes, all brand new and shrinkwrapped. And at 25% off. I'm a happy camper.

In fact, going to go work on some Plague Bearers now.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ironic that a thread of rage quit has now turned to comparing recent purchases.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Mind sharing that link notsoevil?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Zion said:


> I was a little curious about how true this statement was, so I threw together an army in army builder. Since almost everyone starts with Space Marines this is what I used to base it on.
> 
> So here's the list (it's not ultra optimized, but it's something I have seen variants on on the past):
> 
> ...


i play orks, nids, and necrons.

competative nids:

say 2 hive tyrants,2 hive guard, 2 tervigons, at least 100 guants, 2 trygons, = 763.50 and 1480 pts

competative orks or at least what i run

orkwarboss on bike forgeworld, ork nob bikers 4 (6 really but two go in the warbiker boyz), 10 lootas (or three boxs because you only get 4 + a pain boy), , 80 boys, 8 warbikers with nob upgrade = 922$ or 1505 pts i realize the forgeworld skews this pretty bad.

necrons

two lords, 6 cryptek,, 15 warriors in three arks, 2 stalkers, 3 annibarges = 637.25 or 1500 pts

my warmachine

cryx

pdenny, 3 bone jacks, 1 stalkers, 1 seether, skarlock 25 points (normal game at my LGS) = 89.97

trollbloods

pgunnbjorn, bomber, impaler, gun based heavy warbeast (can't remember name), 3 sluggers (comes in box of five) = 149.95 or 25 pts

circle

christmas box set, came with 25pts, full sized rule book, and tokens. not back in canada so i don't know what is in it. christmas loot that is waiting for me.  122$

it is a big price difference. not as bad as i made out but still pretty large.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> i play orks, nids, and necrons.
> 
> competative nids:
> 
> ...


I appreciate the comparison on other armies, but we're also comparing different kinds of games. Warmachine is more of a skirmish game with models acting separately while 40k has models acting as units. It kinda throws off the scale when you look at it like that.

Now if you wanted to play 40k as a skirmish game you could do it pretty cheaply ($50 for a box of Hammernators for example). The scale of the game is what makes 40k more expensive.

Hell you want expensive, look at WFB, -that- can get expensive because of you needing to build blocks of units, requiring you to buy 2-3 boxes of models for a single unit.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Or more importantly the scale at which we choose to play it.

You can always do Lunchhammer if you want but like I said before most of us prefer the bigger game where we can have more stuff


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Zion said:


> I appreciate the comparison on other armies, but we're also comparing different kinds of games. Warmachine is more of a skirmish game with models acting separately while 40k has models acting as units. It kinda throws off the scale when you look at it like that.
> 
> Now if you wanted to play 40k as a skirmish game you could do it pretty cheaply ($50 for a box of Hammernators for example). The scale of the game is what makes 40k more expensive.
> 
> Hell you want expensive, look at WFB, -that- can get expensive because of you needing to build blocks of units, requiring you to buy 2-3 boxes of models for a single unit.


then there is the added argument that PP doesn't invalidate old choices every update to sell their new line and there is the argument that PP is very well balanced and that any army you want to play is up to date and there are no lamed factions.

if you want that scale there is also flames of war that, from what i understand, has a very tight rule system. or you can increase the points level. making huge armies 50-75pts in PP is still cheaper than a basic 1500pt army.

don't get me wrong. i really love the 40k universe, but i completely understand the OPs point. i do feel like GW abuses its consumers. the cost of the rulebook, the cost of the codexes, the cost of new models, the destroying of old models that sold well, the making great (as a general rule) the new models they want to sell, and their, frankly, awful balancing issues in the rules and between armies. 

these are all valid concerns.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Then quit, the only concern GW has is bottom line. When their bottom line is effected by market is when they will react. For GW and any other large company there is no other valid concerns. None, nada, zip. Bottom line stays mostly stable and they will blow off all other concerns. Telling us about it, means nothing, telling them about it means nothing. Until enough people quit to effect bottom line it will continue to be business as usual.

Not angry and not blowing off your guys concerns, I agree prices suck. I just also acknowledge that until those prices actually hurt GW they will not care.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> then there is the added argument that PP doesn't invalidate old choices every update to sell their new line and there is the argument that PP is very well balanced and that any army you want to play is up to date and there are no lamed factions.


Now you're getting into personal opinion and bias. For example, when the WD Sisters Dex came out there were people who felt it was pretty much shit, and while it has it's flaws I enjoy playing with it and do pretty well with it.



lokis222 said:


> if you want that scale there is also flames of war that, from what i understand, has a very tight rule system. or you can increase the points level. making huge armies 50-75pts in PP is still cheaper than a basic 1500pt army.


Now I can't claim to know a lot about Flames of War I've read that it only stays cheap if you sticks to tanks and very specific units and gets expensive quickly if you go outside of those.



lokis222 said:


> don't get me wrong. i really love the 40k universe, but i completely understand the OPs point. i do feel like GW abuses its consumers. the cost of the rulebook, the cost of the codexes, the cost of new models, the destroying of old models that sold well, the making great (as a general rule) the new models they want to sell, and their, frankly, awful balancing issues in the rules and between armies.
> 
> these are all valid concerns.


These *are* valid concerns but pretending that other companies don't or won't do the same is silly. *Every* game company wants to make money. It's how they fund everything they do. To claim that companies don't or won't do things to make money is pretty silly. 

The fact of the matter is that GW's games don't compare very well to other systems. You claim that 1,500 points of 40k is akin to some odd points in Warmahordes, but they play at different scales with different model counts and with different goals in mind. 1,500 points of Marines (in the previous list I posted) gets you 47 models in multi-part plastic kits (okay, one was Finecast, but still) with some pretty good quality, some great detail and more options than you'll likely use in building that one army. How many models do you get for that other game at what you say is an equivelant sized game? 10? I hardly claim that they're the same thing or even approach design from the same starting point or with the same goals. It's like comparing an apple to a banana, they're both fruits, but they have a different look, feel and flavour to them that extends past that initial categorization.

Hell if you're smart and keep the extra bits and even the sprue (sprue + cardboard + foam + time = cheap terrain) you start saving money on things you need because you won't need to spend as much on things like weapons bitz, or stuff to build terrain with.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Then quit, the only concern GW has is bottom line. When their bottom line is effected by market is when they will react. For GW and any other large company there is no other valid concerns. None, nada, zip. Bottom line stays mostly stable and they will blow off all other concerns. Telling us about it, means nothing, telling them about it means nothing. Until enough people quit to effect bottom line it will continue to be business as usual.
> 
> Not angry and not blowing off your guys concerns, I agree prices suck. I just also acknowledge that until those prices actually hurt GW they will not care.


you are right. wish you weren't, but you are.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Just want to say, we all have valid opinions here. Many are unhappy with GW's policies and many are not. I think we can all say though that we love the game and the setting and despite those opinions we all should strive to make it as fun as possible for all involved because at the end of the day that's what it all about. So I thought I might just put... this... right here...


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Trollfest yeee, bashing yeee!!!!
What can I add...nothing....this kind of stuff i've read since 1999. Kinda getting old.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

GW expect to loose customers every year, your life as GW player is limited, always has been, long before the interwebs and such GW have been aware that its target audience has a limited life span and that they will either have other things get in the way like life at large(women,beer,mortgage,work etc) or that people will move to other systems once they have been introduced to the "Hobby", for some the reasons might be cost, others i might be a change of pace,might be something more adult feeling(warhammer and 40k suddenl felt a bit childish when i reached my 20s).

Thing is this isnt new, what the OP and others need to realise is this is a hobby, people take 40k and GW far too seriously, when you feel the need to rant a fairwell speech on a forum, then you NEED to take a break from GW, because its really not that important.
Hobbys are supposed to be fun, they are the thing you are supposed to turn to to unwind and relax from the strains of everyday life and work, If your hobby is causing you to post massive rants then its no longer a hobby, its become a burden.

Best advice, sell your stuff, all of it if you intend to quit fully or sell your models and books and keep your paint and craft equipment if you want to carry on with another system, use the funds you raise from the sale to fund the new system as much as possible.

You will come back to 40k and GW again in the future and it will likely be like an old pair of slippers,comfy and familiar but full of holes. 


On a side note, I personally think we are living in a great 2nd golden age of GW, i dont think we have ever had it so good, the choice of models available to a collector/general is massive,i may have rose tinted glasses as i got into 40k at a time when they produced two vehicle kits and to reduce costs they used the same sprue for top and bottom of the Rhino, Now we have a situation where the Ravenwing have three exclusive plastic kits, granted one of them looks a bit derp, but for me having the ability to choose those three kits for my ravenwing makes me happy, ok they might cost a bit more than people would like and they may not be everyones cup of tea, but i like the fact that GW as a company is still kicking around after this long and in what looks like a triple dip world wide recession has managed to give another of its armies more variety.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I see where your coming from, but people in developed countries really look for things to be entertained. When they devote their time into something, they do so with passion. 

As a Steelers fan for example its my passion and hobby to be a Steelers fan and I take it seriously. I'm almost a hooligan. I love it, and when shit hits the fan for my team I go ape shit and I'm proud of it. Its enjoying the game, spending time with friends and other fans. I'm glad my brother and father are into sports too, because if they said something like I should leave my hobby because I care too much I'd jack them in the face. Well... my brother... not so much my pops. Things like over priced tickets, losing, or the team being in a shit hole where it is not possible to enjoy anymore.

I wouldn't say I reach that level in warhamer, but the environment, the time, the memories I built playing the game had value that just doesn't feel right when you tell someone that they are ranting and they should just suck it up and tuff shit. 

Thats really tough to buy a new codex and new models because your army just isn't competetive anymore. Sorry but I'm not rich. I've nickle and dimed myself to get what I have, and most I've gotten at a good price. 

The seriousness about gamesworkshop is that if you had money you could probably not worry about anything. But some of us don't and get lost in the mix. Its a bit of reality from bills and living real life. Its hard.

Maybe the hobby is childish and we should stop anyway. But remember its more than just the game. I have started and stopped several times in the last 6 years, and I'm not going to lie, if it was just the game, I would have stopped many years ago. But then again, its not just the game, there's the fluff, there's the community, and the friendships that mean a lot. Just leaving this forum for example really sucks. For a long time I wasn't playing the game for example but I was really into the fluff and the people on this forum. But damn did I feel left out when I wasn't able to restart my army with new codexs and relate to the gaming part. That sucks dude, and again, I don't appreciate people telling people who can't catch up to give up or stop trying. They obviously are, and if they could they would.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot of people leave the hobby and I have always assumed the influx of new players makes up for the difference. From what I have seen it is normally down to boredom with the rules, too much real life to allow time for a time cosuming past time or the hobby getting too expensive. I would say that being generally fed up with GW is the biggest reason and people will always add in the price issue as part of the being fed up statement.

I can see where people are coming from and totally understand that the prices can seem to go up all the time. But to be honest I think the quality of the plastics it above and beyond anything they have provided in the past. I can't say I am happy with the finecast models and would probably prefer they went full plastic. But I totally understand why some models are not financially justified to be plastics. This maybe doesnt justify the prices but the amount fo profit GW actually make according to thier annual statements makes me think they are not fleecing the customer as much as people like to think.

As for the rules by GW, well I personally enjoy the current version. I have no flyers in my army, but appreciate that they make the game more 3 dimensional. This is my favorite version of the rules since 2nd edition and if the Chaos codex is anything to go by they are not having codex creep. But I have not seen the DA codex yet so will wait and see if that continues to be true.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I suppose the only real gripe I have about GW's prices are the increase for OLD models. They raise the price for existing models as if inflation has caused them to do so, yet their own price increase is quicker than actual inflation. The end result, paying 10 dollars for a single pewter miniature that was sculpted in 1997 just to complete a squad I already have sitting here from 10 years ago. That part of it is sickening. 

As for new expensive stuff like the Dark Angels. Either buy it or don't.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Then don't buy it, convert one.


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

At the risk of being labelled a GW apologist, just a reminder that the headline rate of inflation that everyone likes to point to has very little to do with changes in production costs from GW's side - the big shift for them has been material costs.

The costs of both base metals and oil have risen much more quickly than inflation over the last 10 years or so - from a quick look at prices on the London Metal Exchange, the price of tin is currently around 6 times higher than is was 10 years ago, with a couple of major spikes during that time. I'm sure any of you with cars are well aware that the story is much the same for oil prices.

Would I like to pay less than we currently do for minis? Sure. Would I like for a more level playing field and things to stay more constant from one codex/edition to the next? Why not - sounds great (and more regular revision would probably help along the way to this)... but for those of you saying that it doesn't cost GW much more to produce a model today than it did 10 years ago, have a look at the numbers.

As a counter point, when I came back to the hobby a couple of years back I was actually surprised by how little some of the prices had changed - a squad of 10 original metal Catachans cost me about £12 in the 90s, and the equivalent plastics box with far more options was roughly £15-£16 when I returned 15 years later... doesn't seem too bad to me.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Gameswork shop is publicly traded company. No matter how much in annoys us gamers they have to watch the bottom line above all else. The only way they would make efforts to reduce costs would be if they reached a tipping point where sales dropped off drastically because of a untenable price hike or sudden fall in the hobby. Kinda like the inane gas price hikes 8-10 years ago.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Imwookie2 said:


> Lol.......and we were doing so well having an adult conversation about this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read it because I though you might have been a person who had a legit reason for leaving. IE needs the money to spend on a expensive operation or something like that.

Secondly, of course they are charging extra for dark angels. It's a "special" army. You see GW knows their fan base. They know that people are going to dish out extra money for space marines wearing robes or wolf pelts because that makes them unique. 

They are space marines GW's poster boys. Cadian and catachan battleforces are exactly the same price. why? because they aren't space marines.

Finally let's look at the cost. An ork trukk is about $60. A dozen beer is $23

a flat is about $50. For the cost of 32 beer I can get a ork trukk. I then can have fun assembling it painting it and gaming with it.

The beer once I drink it it's gone I get nothing out of it. That trukk on the other hand is mine. I can keep it forever.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

As I have said in other threads, I would be shocked if the prices of all the other armies do not match the DA prices by the end of the year. As you pointed out, it is still cheaper than other forms of entertainment and it stays with you until you get rid of it.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Like herpes, which will stick around even after trying to get rid of it.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Then don't buy it, convert one.


Yeah I've done that and it works but it's pretty damn hard with SoB. Hold their bolters like babies so carving out the pewter from their chest is quite the chore. Doable yes, but challenging to get it to look right. It wasn't so bad before when you could buy the 10 girl box which came with a flamer, superior and a storm bolter. Now the price of a flamer is the same as a melta which was the best option for converting into a melta... so in short yes, it works but it's not the same as just throwing a melta gun on a space marine and calling it a day.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I think I would just convert a space marine into a SoB before I went carving on metal models.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> I think I would just convert a space marine into a SoB before I went carving on metal models.


Dark Eldar work better


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

EmbraCraig said:


> As a counter point, when I came back to the hobby a couple of years back I was actually surprised by how little some of the prices had changed - a squad of 10 original metal Catachans cost me about £12 in the 90s, and the equivalent plastics box with far more options was roughly £15-£16 when I returned 15 years later... doesn't seem too bad to me.


Actually you have point, in a lot of the old armies (such as crons and DE) have become much cheaper in the update as they have converted a lot of the £10 for one metal blister pack to 5 guys for £20 in plastic with lots of bitz spare too. So while the prices of things are getting higher (which is a bummer) some of the older armies which have been converted from metal to plastic is getting cheaper, you never know maybe sisters will even get it at some point.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

GW has done much better with updating Faqs.

They also "seem" to be trying to update more codices with new models more frequently through WD with rules.

They have at least started going digital.

So there is some change theere at GW, but I'm not saying their prices aren't fairly high. Do these changes balance everything out, depends on the person. Play what you have fun playing and/or switch it up for diversity.

I need to get some games in myself (haven't played a single game of 6th yet). Somewhat disenchanted with SoB and/or need to paint/model and don't have much time.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

GW prices are a mixed bag for me. I find the codexs over priced and I find individual models over priced, but i'm happy enough with their box set prices. However, in general I don't buy from GW. I won't buy from their stores because of the way the staff are and I generally don't buy online because I can buy cheaper elsewhere. Only a few £ but still, why pay £20 for something when you can get it for £18. 

I used to buy the majority of stuff either from e-bay or from other players. When I started out playing Warhammer Bretonnians and Lizardmen were the box set and I found people wanted to be one of the other. I bought almost 4,000 points of Bretonnians for less that £200 that way. 

Sadly it's not the cost that has put me off playing, it's the lack of clubs to play at and the behaviou of GW store staff. I won't play at a local store because I don't want to be constantly harrassed about buying something new. To get back in to playing now would cost quite a lot of money, new rules, new army books etc and that discourages me from even trying. 

Who knows how much it costs to run GW and where the money goes. It certainly doesn't go on staff wages. I looked at working for them once, and then saw what they were paying. I couldn't even pay the bills on what they were offering store managers. Sadly the emphasis is on sales and I don't like their practice of miss-selling obsolete items to people, especially when they are as expensive as they are. 

It would be nice to see them try and expand on their new customer base and improve their retention of their existing customer base instead of trying to squeeze money out of people left right and centre and mug you of your wallet as you walk in to a GW store.


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