# Betrayer (Possible Spoilers)



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Absolutely awesome, so much depth to both legions, finally the answer to where Angron comes from, could barely put it down. I really hope ADB takes his hand to a loyalist legion, he's done so much for the traitors that has been awesome I wish he'd do the same for one of the least known loyalist legions.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

more spoilers please sir


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

This thread has more info in it. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119383


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

*Guillimans strengt?*

I liked the book very much. But I have some thoughts...
The Ultramarines is my favorite chapter. I love the way the HH-series has described RG but for one thing. Isn't RG a master strategist? BftA the Ultras doesn't show much strength in that area, KnF is purely luck that the Ultras manages to turn the game around. And in Betrayer... I miss some kind of sign how RG thinks in the end. If he plans the attack, well, it's not that impressive... the World Eaters kicks their arse in strategy. When will we experience RG genius in the HH series!?


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## Discharger039 (Aug 5, 2012)

I think RG's counter attack was kind of ad-hoc - put together with whatever forces he find after Calth. Plus, it was the UM's vs 2 legions, not just the World Eaters.

What I loved most about the book was how ADM provided the background on the World Eaters through recollections/memories/flashbacks of several characters. It was a great way to get to know the history of the World Eaters legion and would love to see this method used more on other legions.

Here are a few questions I have from the book: Why didn't the Emperor help Angron and the slaves? Why did he just grab him and leave the rest behind? Really a dick move. 

Why no cries of "The crimson path before the iron fetter!!" ?? Best battle cry ever.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Betrayer is one of the best in the series yet. I have to say, apart from _Fear to Thread_ the recent additions to the series have been top notch. I read it back to back with _Angel Exterminatus_, and was blown away by both.



Alvarius said:


> When will we experience RG genius in the HH series!?


The way he rallied his forces after the initial assault at Calth was nothing if not impressive.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, in KnF he shows incredible insight and ability. In _Betrayer_, I got the feeling that his emotions and desire to catch up with Lorgar and kill him, got the better of him for once, his wrath overriding his more logical side.


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## Discharger039 (Aug 5, 2012)

I think you may also have to concede that it was a "contrived climax." The plot required a final climatic battle, so RG had to show up, fight and escape.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Yes, all those moments by RG wasn't bad. But I feel that they weren't moments where you think "This is why all his brothers and the Empire sees him as the master strategist".


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

The way Kor Phaeron easily incapacitated Guilliman and had him at his mercy (probably would've finished him had he not given his James Bond villain speech)...that made Guilliman look pretty bad 

Kor-Phaeron is at most a very powerful sorcerer (notice I say sorcerer, not psyker)
I know Luther beat the Lion, but the Lion held back IIRC. Guilliman went down a bit too quickly IMO


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> The way Kor Phaeron easily incapacitated Guilliman and had him at his mercy (probably would've finished him had he not given his James Bond villain speech)...that made Guilliman look pretty bad
> 
> Kor-Phaeron is at most a very powerful sorcerer (notice I say sorcerer, not psyker)
> I know Luther beat the Lion, but the Lion held back IIRC. Guilliman went down a bit too quickly IMO


Try not to forget that Guilliman had just been floating about and fighting in the void without a helmet on for quite some time, after an explosive decompression as well. Even a Primarchs physiology is going to take a hell of a beating from that, and as we read in _Betrayer_, It seems to have left permanent damage to his blood vessels in his face 'The Mark of Calth' as he calls it. 

Couple this with Kor Phaeron having been serving the Dark Gods for a very very long period of time, therefore making his knowledge in sorcery very high and I can quite easily see how him taking Guilliman down is plausible. I imagine most of the Primarchs would be pretty weak as well, perhaps Mortarion with his legendary resistance being alright(ish).

For all that, Guilliman still had the strength to punch out KP's heart.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Well, im still waiting for an author who really describes Gulliman the way Angron, Lorgar, Corax, Horus, Fulgrim, Petruabo, Alpharius, the Lion and Nighthaunter has been. A HH book that focuses on the Ultramarines and foremost Guilliman. Don't let me down Black Library.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

I liked Betrayer, but I felt lorgar and angron were made way to powerful. I dont believe Primarchs should be toppling titans and such with single blows. Just seems way OTT. 

I loved angrons take on the emperor. That's been my take on the emperor as well. 100% spot on and was really good to hear. At least one primarch wasn't a complete idiot and could see the emperor for the douchebag he is.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Finished the book today and enjoyed it greatly.

The most chilling part of the book for me doesn't involve Argel Tal, Erebus or Cyrene. It was the rare glimpses of co-existence between Angron and Lotara, and how, by the end, she was trapped on a ship with a true monster.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

Possible spoilers.

I liked how throughout the novel, Angron kept saying he wasn't a lord. And then at the end he tells Kharn to build him a throne.


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## aaronspuler (Mar 10, 2010)

The skull throne?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> For all that, Guilliman still had the strength to punch out KP's heart.


Right, but only because KP decided to deliver a speech instead of the deathblow

Had KP been less reckless, Bobby would've bit the dust


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