# *SPOILERS!!!?!?* Aurelian Discussion



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Where to start, a much more worthy Novella imo compared to Promethean Sun which didn't really expand on the main story where as this one fills in the gaps and sort of explains Lorgar's decisions to turn on the Imperium.

I'll give a brief summary without going into to much detail since it's fairly complicated as it shifts in location as part of the way the chaos gods influence Lorgar.

The prologue starts on the day when Lorgar takes over his world, Kor Phaeron already appears to be a dick by this stage. The hints of heresy are already there in his words when he doesn't deny Lorgar's belief of the one god (emperor) but he talks about there being many other gods.

It then shifts to the meeting room where if you've read the extracts Lorgar batters Daemon Fulgrim and then speaks to Magnus about his pilgrimage.

It then shifts to the pilgrimage which we saw the beginning of in _The First Heretic_ He takes a walk around cadia with Ingethel and the beginning of Lorgar's turning starts with the explanation about what happened to the Eldar, about how they didn't accept the gods and in the end killed themselves by making a new god. He also explains what the warp is and the merging of the two realities.

This is explained while walking through the wreck of a crashed craftworld which failed to make it away when the eye of terror blew into existence. Lorgar senses some form of life and walks through mirages of ghostly Eldar before coming to the heart of the craftworld where an avatar of khaine digs himself out of the rubble, he's terribly injuried not aflame, only smoke is coming off him, he's in no state of mind or body to fight. 

More explanations about how stupid the Eldar are follow where Lorgar kind of pities the Avatar who only says the words that translate into "The Wailing Doom", anyway Lorgar eventually shows the avatar some mercy when he caves his head in with his crozius.

Then it shifts and he's before the Eternity Gate on Terra when it suddenly shifts and he's confronted by the battle in ghost form, a monstrous daemon is beating Imperial Fists to a pulp (looks like a daemon prince I think) anyway Lorgar has no idea who it is until he Ingethel tells him it's Argel Tal and that the Word Bearers had painted their armour due to the treachery. This is where Sanguinius shows up and then Ingethel says "This is where Argel Tal dies.." before shifting to another world.

The next part is interesting it states a lot of the possibilities that could of happened to lorgar, the first was he could of died in youth killed by assassins wanting to keep the old ways and that when the Emperor arrived it was a dead world, the next he was poisoned by his dad (Kor Phaeron) on the day of victory because he felt he could no longer manipulate him. The next that his temper was really bad and he had a fight with Sanguinius stabbing him in the back and in punishment Horus butchered him. The most interesting imo is the next one, it states he defied the Anathema (Emperor) falsely considering it to be human and he was executed by Curze and Russ before sorcery of alchemical and genetic power was used to poison his geneseed and his legion which would eventually be wiped out by the Ultramarines.

He keeps asking why it's him who was brought, why not the generals like Horus or Guilliman, why not Sanguinius or Dorn and finally why not Magnus

It then shifts again and he's on a daemon world which looks like Tizca. It's shortly after Magnus ran from Leman Russ and the evidence of mutation is everywhere as the thousand son guard has tentacles etc. Basically what happens here is Ingethel explains that Magnus was already under their control, especially by Tzeentch and that what was needed was an undivided champion of all the powers. Lorgar tries to confront Magnus but gets dragged out by the combined efforts of Magnus expelling him and Ingethel pulling him.
Then Ingethel tells him that if he chooses wrongly he may end up dead. On shrike if he gets between Russ and Magnus he may end up dead during their duel and then the best part if he ever draws a weapon against his brother Corax, in a battle you can never win he's almost certain to die.

What happens next scares Ingethel as it's against the plan, he even states he's not a duellist to match the lion, not a brawler to match Russ, nor a fighter to match Angron, nor a Warrior to equal Khan or a soldier like Dorn or a killer like Curze. An'ggrath the Unbound comes down and challenges Lorgar, it's touch and go by Lorgar eventually banishes him (which tbh seems to make him more powerful than Sanguinius as he does it considerably easier imo) 

Then the fateweaver, oracle of change comes. He declares he has to tell one lie and one truth forever but the gods have allowed him on this occasion to deliver a choice to lorgar, either he gives into vengeance and faces Roboute Guilliman at Calth and kills him gaining awe and respect from his brothers, but loses the war against the Emperor or he doesn't face Guilliman for personal glory and chooses to fight on Terra. He shows Lorgar how he kills Guilliman who dies with a smile on his lips, the oracle states that it's either because he hates Lorgar, he was amused to find out he was right about Lorgar and that he was a traitor in waiting OR that he never loathed Lorgar, Lorgar had always imagined his hatred but he does not respect Lorgar as they are to different and lorgar's imagination has always been the source of the feud.

Anyway it comes back to Lorgar speaking to magnus after the meeting where he bashed Fulgrim. They return to the meeting and Lorgar wants to know where Fulgrim is. (He's back down on Istvaan) So Lorgar goes down and confronts Fulgrim, when a vox comes in and the entire Word Bearer Legion has teleported onto the ships of the Emperor's Children. This forces Fulgrim to give into Lorgar's demands which is to see the actual Fulgrim. So he takes him to see the painting in the theatre (From Fulgrim) where he looks into the eyes and sees his brother's soul. He then pat the daemon fulgrim on his shoulder pad and says take care of Fulgrims body during your Stewardship.

Phew...that was a lot to write.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Sounds pretty interesting, can't wait to read it.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't know if it was apophenia on my part, but by the very finale of the book, I kept expecting "Argel Tal, summon Typhon to me."

Lorgar seemed to be doing a wee tour of the anointed Chaos folks. Fulgrim, Angron, Horus, Magnus. The only conspicuously missing one was Mortarion and, from what we know, Mortarion (like Perturabo and less-so Angron) is the only Primarch whose treachery seems to derive from a genuine bee-in-bonnet approach.

Hence Typhon. But it never materialised. I trust it'll crop up in "Butcher's Nails" or somewhere further down the line. 

That said, I whole-heartedly agree: this was an infinitely more interesting book than _Promethean Sun_, probably as it was 0.0001% bolter porn. Bolt pistols, at least, were pointed (and thrust at jaws), I don't recall any being prominently _fired_. Unlike PS, which was near enough the complete opposite.

I think Kairos presents an interesting logical puzzle. I don't know if that was *intended* (or whether it can be resolved), but it looks like an interesting bit of text to actually look at in detail: does Kairos ever tell two lies (or two _necessary_ truths)? As I say, it should be interesting to look at in more detail.

The first half of the book was...captivating. The second half was much more an exploration. It worked very well with, perhaps, only the fight against the Unbound falling even slightly flat. 

I think my take-home message from the book is this: both Aaron & Matt Farrer clearly have a lot more respect for the literary capacity offered by Angron and Peturabo than anyone else ever has had. Even if, amusingly, the Perturabo/Angron leaving-the-room sentence suggested a long suffering buddy-comedy to me. 

Anyway, an exquisite wee book. I think it'll earn a lot more re-reads than _Promethean Sun_ and _The Bloody Handed_.

---

*General Commentary on the Horus Heresy*

Whether deliberate or not, this book almost whole-heartedly felt like a proper change of tone for the Horus Heresy, a change which I feels been long overdue for its consistency and...holistic appeal.

"I am finished with this petty banter"

Perhaps that's just me reading too much into it, but with Magnus saying that it _finally_ (albeit building on the quality foundations lain with Magnus/Lorgar and Lorgar/Corax/NightHaunter in TFH) felt like the HH'd turned a corner and realised that this is a bloody huge thing. Jim Swallow'd made excellent overtures on it with _The Liar's Due_ and _Nemesis_, but the rest of the novels-gang all seemed to have...slid over it.

That criticism goes in against _Fulgrim_'s depiction of Isstvan V just as much as the curiously sparsely populated vistas of the Abnett-led books go: the opening trilogy, _Legion_, _Titanicus_' counterpart - _Mechanicum_ and so forth, they all seem dominated by a mere handful of characters. Engaging, certainly, but it feels like you're watching a play in someone's sitting room. Significant story, perhaps, but lacking in certain aspects of detail and nuance.

Having said that, I get the impression I'm not quite as fond of Argel Tal as Herr D-B is. 

(Which is probably why I kept expecting Typhon [or any old Death Guard] to appear near the end.)

Case in point: mere _mention_ of the Sons of Horus Techmarine, simple indication of their existence (and repetitive officiousness), that built the reality of it in a way that neither Graham, Ben, Dan, Jim or Graham again managed to do in the opening books of the series. Any sign of Librarians? Of Techmarines? Of Chaplains? No. It seemed a bit...empty. Lacking.

(Though I still can't deny that I thoroughly enjoyed those opening books; I feel I'm _much_ happier with the product when it's up to scratch like _Aurelian_ is.)

===

*Missed Marks*

I was a little sad to see that we never got to see what Lorgar sees in "Show me what happens if we lose", but then I do think that's part of the implied gist of the book: is their 'loss' actually what's desired - is 'defeat' at Calth what the Chaos Gods are priming Lorgar to be ready for? It seems likely and, if I might say so, advanced in a way that was reminiscent of _Legion_ but, knowing Herr D-B's adoration for that book, I'm inclined to think that that's almost certainly deliberate (or indeed: a pretty straight forward compliment).

Of _course_ this'd be more advanced and detailed than _Legion_ if it were operating on that same "the species can survive, but the Emperor can't win" sort of level...there's been plenty of time to build, confer, improve and make sense of what were, earlier in the timeline, less well-thought-out ideas.

I'm pleased to say that I respect that vibe (even if it's not actually existent; as readers we sometimes read too much in that space between the lines), even more so because that 'building upon things which have gone before' style felt so thoroughly missing from _The Outcast Dead_.

With all that in mind, I think we could've done to see a little more indication of 'what else is going on'. I noted a curious absence of Vulkan in the book; perhaps the only primarch not to be explicitly mentioned? (Though now I say that, was Ferrus mentioned?)

I was a bit miffed we didn't get to see a flashback to pre-Fall eldar, I thought this'd have been an almost perfect opportunity to see that. I understand there's only so few things that can be done with a novel, but that strikes me as one of the few remaining 'unseen' bits of 40k.

Also, conspicuously no mention of the _Furious Abyss_. 

As for Lorgar being more potent than Sanguinius? No, I'm not sure. There was indication throughout, I felt, that Lorgar's 'faith' in Chaos, and the inherent patronage afforded him, was significantly boosting his potency and domination over the warp. Looking at his early interactions with Magnus and Ingethel, I think it came through strongly in that regard. To put it more sensibly: we know Sanguinius is generally a 'superior primarch' to Lorgar (note Lorgar's acceptance of the daemon's barbs when chatting to "Fulgrim"), but we don't know whether Sanguinius' 'faith' in the Emperor?/Humanity?/His Sons? is more than Lorgar's faith.

I'd say that's an open and remaining point. 

===

*More-tarion!*

In that regard too, those may be the challenges set forth by the Chaos Gods for Lorgar.
Khorne - Beat the Unbound. 
Slaanesh - Face/deal-with/resolve/accept what's happened to Fulgrim.
Tzeentch - Deal with the Ultramarines without simply killing Guilliman. (Win through personal loss.)
Nurgle - ???

Again, with three 'significant tests' vexing him through the book, Nurgle seems to be letting Lorgar off lightly. I'd be inclined to say that it's clearly a journey-in-progress too, Khorne's 'soundly beaten' (even though he broke the rules) and so Angron's cooperation/pliability is handed to Lorgar for shaping.

Lorgar surely then, in the coming years, has to shape/cultivate Chaos in the primarchs: a true High Priest-y figure.

Also, Kor Phaeron is Space Ian Paisely.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

this sounds awesome


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

aurelian sounds very exciting but wont be reading it anytime soon but im sort of getting a litle confused as to lorgars change in character.

was it savage weapons or first heretic were curze? saves a snivelling lorgar from being killed by corax? im sort of remembering him being a total pussy and now the review of aurelian has lorgar being THE man out of all the traitors. im just a little confused about the timeline in this.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Aurelian is almost entirely composed of flashbacks and the bits surrounding the flashbacks, but it actually takes place 'in the future' for _The First Heretic_, e.g. after the end of the novel. 

Also flash forwards.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> aurelian sounds very exciting but wont be reading it anytime soon but im sort of getting a litle confused as to lorgars change in character.
> 
> was it savage weapons or first heretic were curze? saves a snivelling lorgar from being killed by corax? im sort of remembering him being a total pussy and now the review of aurelian has lorgar being THE man out of all the traitors. im just a little confused about the timeline in this.


it was first heretic. but me too, I don't understand, if Aurelian is flashbacks then he couldnt benn the MAN when corx was wiping the floor with him...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I thought the scene with Perturabo and Angron walking off interesting as well. In Horus Rising, Perturabo and Angron were also mentioned together as being the two primarchs Horus had trouble dealing with when he became Primarch.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> aurelian sounds very exciting but wont be reading it anytime soon but im sort of getting a litle confused as to lorgars change in character.
> 
> was it savage weapons or first heretic were curze? saves a snivelling lorgar from being killed by corax? im sort of remembering him being a total pussy and now the review of aurelian has lorgar being THE man out of all the traitors. im just a little confused about the timeline in this.


The answer is surprisingly simple, really. But it's difficult when you've not read it, obviously, and are going on vague descriptions.

Every fight is different, and we're dealing with what are essentially mythological beings. Remember, this is just a novella and the entire point is for Lorgar's main changes to take place in the months and years _after_ Isstvan, in the novel line. Aurelian did nothing more than show how he spent the wilderness years getting a little bit more confident, but hardly absolutely set in his convictions. Finally - four decades later - he faces the facts, shrugs off his mentors, and goes against his brother Corax. He's still less-trained than Corax, still confused, suddenly flaring with psychic power he has no control over. Of course he loses. The fight still isn't equal. He's taken some steps to enlightenment (including beating the Unbound four decades ago; which is hardly a shock, he's still a primarch after all), but it's after Isstvan that the changes really take place. He even says it in Aurelian: "Everything changed after Isstvan." Lorgar at his peak is still yet to come.

After Isstvan, he starts to make Magnus and Horus uneasy. After Isstvan, he starts to control the power he had the first uncontrolled taste of on that very battlefield. Remember, we're dealing with a few thousand words between the main novels. This is just part of a long, long character arc. The flashbacks in Aurelian are just showing his first steps to learning about Chaos - not the changes that come after he fights Corax. We're only just starting to see those, but even a matter of days and weeks later, he's controlling his psychic power after that battle, rather than never using it.

It's not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That's why those "Which Primarch Is Toughest?" threads are so worthless. At their peaks, the primarchs are the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. Fights are fights, with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong. They're not sterile events of "Well, he's stronger, so he'll always win." No race or fight ever plays out that way.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> After Isstvan, he starts to make Magnus and Horus uneasy. After Isstvan, he starts to control the power he had the first uncontrolled taste of on that very battlefield. Remember, we're dealing with a few thousand words between the main novels. This is just part of a long, long character arc. The flashbacks in Aurelian are just showing his first steps to learning about Chaos - not the changes that come after he fights Corax. We're only just starting to see those, but even a matter of days and weeks later, he's controlling his psychic power after that battle, rather than never using it.


This was the strongest element of Aurelian for me, the way it seems as if his humiliation, not just at the hands of Corax, but also Night Haunter, has allowed him to let go of any lingering hopes he had of bringing more of his brothers or the Imperium as a whole, over to his side without a conflict, and embrace the power he has always been reluctant or afraid to face up to. 

No matter how hard he tried, his brothers always saw him as the weakling runt of the litter, but now he has given up trying to please everyone, even those on his side, he can concentrate on opening himself up to the power he has denied himself until now. If he was able to dominate Horus and make Horus flinch from half a galaxy away only a few days after this epiphany, I can only imagine how powerful he is by the time the Heresy reaches it's climax.


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