# Sanguinius Vs Angron.



## Coder59

BATTLE OF THE BERZERKERS! 

One thing I allways wanted to see during the heresy was these two Primarchs going toe to toe in a fight to the death. And I'm not talking about regular Angron either I mean big Daemon Primarch Angron. Why Daemon Primarch? Well I'll tell you in the rather spiffy Audiobook "Raven's Flight" Corax is almost forced into a duel with Angron and knows theres no way in hell he can win. In fact he muses to himself that the only two Primarchs who CAN take Angron are Sanguinius and Horus, that's right Leman Russ doesn't even get a look in with these two. 

So how about it. 










Or 










Personally I'm coming down on the side of Angel Boy. Why? Well lets face it both these guys have wings and can fly, so the duel is inevitably going to take to the air. Sanguinius has been fighting on the wing his entire life, Angron hasn't it's brand new to him, In fact I haven't found a single account of him fighting in the air DESPITE having wings. Coupled with that is Angron's much increased bulk yeh but makes him stronger but he isn't going to be as nimble as the Angel of Baal. That coupled with Angron's allmost mindless rage could work against him when fighting somebody of Sanguinius Calibur and experience. The second reason is that Angron has absolutely no experience fighting anything as strong or tough as himself. Sure he slaughters Marines and Xenos no problem but he's never come up against anything that could match a Primarch. Sanguinius has, he's been to Signus he's learned from his battles with the Daemons about fighting opponents on an equal footing with himself. Angron might be a killer but Sanguinius is a fighter. 

On Angron's side of course is that apocalyptic rage coupled with his sheer might and unstopability Yeh Sanguinius is tough but Angron is tougher still and is going to take a lot of killing in this state, and all the while he's going to be fighting like hell.

All this is assuming of course Angron doesn't just get his head blown off by the Loyalists such as what happens to every Daemon Prince I've ever seen on the board.


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## kaled

Corax muses that Sanguinius may be able to take Angron in a fight, but Angron isn't a daemon prince at that point. We can only suppose that Angron becomes even more powerful once he's elevated to daemonhood and I'd put my money on a daemonic primarch over Sanguinius.


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## Coder59

kaled said:


> Corax muses that Sanguinius may be able to take Angron in a fight, but Angron isn't a daemon prince at that point. We can only suppose that Angron becomes even more powerful once he's elevated to daemonhood and I'd put my money on a daemonic primarch over Sanguinius.


A worthy argument. But Corax also says this about Horus, whereas we know that Sanguinius could steam roller Horus in a fight before his daemonic enhancement. I'm sticking with my argument that Sanguinius's skill and mental abilitys would win over Angron's Daemon Haxx codes.


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## revenant13

id go with the Angel. the Spear of Telesto would be annoying as hell for angron. soon as hes within cc range, Angel just lights his ass up with the built in flamer. sure its not gonna kill him but that would be very distracting, enough to get him killed if he doesnt recover on the spot.


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## Thousandth Son

Angron. He has the power of a Daemon Primarch and all the benefits that comes with it. We shouldn't use examples like "he isn't used to having wings" and "his anger could be used against him" in my opinion. He is a Daemon Primarch, so mortal experience like getting used to flying may not be the same as humans.
The same goes for the argument of "being too bulky". Space Marines are very bulky, but despite this they are inhumanly fast compared to normal humans and also quite agile despite their bulk. 

Also, who knows what battles Angron has fought? In his time as a Daemon Primarch, he may have fought thousands of batlles in the warp against rival daemons and Princes.


However, despite all this Sanguinius is still...well, Sanguinius, so who knows what could happen? I'd rather have a killer than a fighter on my team, though.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

If were talking about Angron post-Ascension then I would say Angron. If were talking about Angron pre-Ascension, its obviously more balanced but I would probably still say Angron. But then again these hypothetical 'Vs' situations would heavily rely on circumstance.

Corax merely muses that the only 2 Primarchs that could have stood any chance against Angron's sheer might would have been Horus & possibly Sanguinius. But that is just Corax's opinion, and is by no means fact. All that we know for sure in that regard is that Corax himself knew he couldn't have bested Angron.

As for the OP's 2 reasons for Sanguinius besting Daemon Primarch Angron; 1) He has wings, and 2) Angron seemingly has no experiance against beings of similar strength/stature - are extremley flimsy at best. 

Having wings is simply not an issue, and Angron (particually as a Daemon Prince) has a lot more experiance than Sanguinius ever had regarding 'tough opponents'.


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## Malus Darkblade

Wings? D-Angro would just grab him mid air and pluck them like chicken feathers then he would easily pummel Sang. who would be too busy rolling in pain.


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If were talking about Angron post-Ascension then I would say Angron. If were talking about Angron pre-Ascension, its obviously more balanced but I would probably still say Angron. But then again these hypothetical 'Vs' situations would heavily rely on circumstance.
> 
> Corax merely muses that the only 2 Primarchs that could have stood any chance against Angron's sheer might would have been Horus & possibly Sanguinius. But that is just Corax's opinion, and is by no means fact. All that we know for sure in that regard is that Corax himself knew he couldn't have bested Angron.
> 
> As for the OP's 2 reasons for Sanguinius besting Daemon Primarch Angron; 1) He has wings, and 2) Angron seemingly has no experiance against beings of similar strength/stature - are extremley flimsy at best.
> 
> Having wings is simply not an issue, and Angron (particually as a Daemon Prince) has a lot more experiance than Sanguinius ever had regarding 'tough opponents'.


Actually we're talking Just after his ascention during the battles on Terra. Even the best warrior in the universe has to learn to use his tools. The whole argument is hypothetical but I think when it comes to Sanguinius Vs A Rageing beast which is after all what Angron is I don't think it'll be as simple as Angron going "HA GOTCHA" and tearing Birdy boy a new one. I mean this is Sanguinius we're talking about even Horus doubted he could beat him in a strait fight.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Wings? D-Angro would just grab him mid air and pluck them like chicken feathers then he would easily pummel Sang. who would be too busy rolling in pain.


Grabbing the fast flying primarch with the great big sword doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me.


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## VanitusMalus

ok first in the fluff and even in the game, Daemons with wings fly because of the magic behind them, not because of any experience with having them or some scientific reasoning, so that arguments right out the door. 

Secondly Angron was a playable unit in the early editions of Epic and started the first Armageddon war and was bested by the Grey Knights. So since he was a part of the gaming experience (which mortals had a chance of taking him down) and he was banished by mortals (GK's aren't gods) I think the possibility of being bested by Sanguinis (post Ascension) is pretty balanced. Lets not see the Primarchs as simple marines who are a bit stronger, they were endowed with a small bit of Empreror's soul.


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## VanitusMalus

also I want to know where everyone gets all these cool pictures of 40K


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## Coder59

VanitusMalus said:


> also I want to know where everyone gets all these cool pictures of 40K


Horus Heresy Artbooks my friend.


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## VanitusMalus

I've always been of the mind GW is getting enough of my money, hence why in the long history of dealing with them I haven't purchased one thing that wasn't either a model or a rulebook...money hungry bassards


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

VanitusMalus said:


> So since he was a part of the gaming experience (which mortals had a chance of taking him down) and he was banished by mortals (GK's aren't gods) I think the possibility of being bested by Sanguinis (post Ascension) is pretty balanced. Lets not see the Primarchs as simple marines who are a bit stronger, they were endowed with a small bit of Empreror's soul.


So are you forgetting that Angron is also a Primarch. But also much more, a Primarch-made-Daemon, for all intents and purposes more powerful than a 'normal' primarch.

And as far as Angron's banishment during the First War for Armageddon is concerned, the Grey Knights are literally 'all that', they are _the_ anti-Daemon force in the galaxy. Heavily implied to be created from the Emperor's own DNA, and equipped and blessed with the most potent weaponary available to man. They are all psykers, and have all undergone testing that would render 'normal' Astartes dead or simply insane, they are the pinnacle of the Imperium's military might and greatest weapon of the Emperor. They would be much more effective against Daemons, and indeed a Daemon Primarch than any other loyalist Primarch in all honesty. However the Grey Knights are an incredibly tiny force in comparison to the size of the galaxy and frequent occurence of Chaos insurrections across Imperial Space. They are incredibly valuable and valued, and simply cannot be everywhere at once. To my knowledge an entire company was fielded on Armageddon, this may well have been unprecedented numbers of Grey Knights fielded in a single operation, and less than a handful made it back.

Leading on from that let us not forget that basically the entire company of these invaluable warriors were lost to Angron's hand.



VanitusMalus said:


> also I want to know where everyone gets all these cool pictures of 40K


As _Coder59_ said, from the Collected Visions. But you could always use google images, a lot are posted on the internet and google, being a search engine tends to pick them up... :grin:


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## Baron Spikey

So you've never bought any BL books?

Both those images are from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions book, pricey at £30 but very beautiful.


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## Malus Darkblade

Coder59 said:


> Grabbing the fast flying primarch with the great big sword doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me.


Like a Daemon Primarch wouldn't be fast enough to dodge or would care if he actually got hit, not like he can get killed.

Also this is Angron we're talking about, someone who upon crash landing on a planet wiped out a party of Eldar assassins the moment he got out of his capsule.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.
What would daemonancy do for a Primarch? Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time? Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand? EG, As a Daemon of Khorne, will Angron just be able to power himself with the immortal anger of Khorne himself, or could he make the ground turn to water and turn bystanders into spawn as well? We do know that they are never truly killed, just banished to the warp for a pre-determined length of time, so there is that.
In the end, is a daemon Primarch better in every way, or would Angron just be more, well, Angron-y? In there, somewhere, I feel might lie some way of making a choice that isn't just based on what character you happen to like most.
For me, getting off my tangent and striding manfully back OT, I think it would be close, but a clear head might prevail over boiling fury and mindlessness. So Sanguinius for me.

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.
> What would daemonancy do for a Primarch? Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time? Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand?



Horus kicked the emperor's ass, the most powerful psycher in the universe and the strongest 'human' ever.

The emp only won because sanguinius pierced horus's armor and some say horus went easy on the emperor.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

Yes, but the only fluff I've ever seen on that topic says that the Emperor was so badly wounded becuase he couldn't bring himself to believe his favourite son had fallen so far. When it was revealed to him, he struck back with all of his might and killed Horus. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

On the part of it that is OT, Horus was powered by the 4 Dark Gods themselves, a physical vessel through which they could exercise their power in the materium. That is not a daemon, that is something very different, or at least it is something far above even a Daemon Primarch. Being given a portion of the power of a god is different than becoming part of the warp with all of the good and bad that brings.

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Yes, but the only fluff I've ever seen on that topic says that the Emperor was so badly wounded becuase he couldn't bring himself to believe his favourite son had fallen so far. When it was revealed to him, he struck back with all of his might and killed Horus. But that is a discussion for a different thread.
> 
> On the part of it that is OT, Horus was powered by the 4 Dark Gods themselves, a physical vessel through which they could exercise their power in the materium. That is not a daemon, that is something very different, or at least it is something far above even a Daemon Primarch. Being given a portion of the power of a god is different than becoming part of the warp with all of the good and bad that brings.
> 
> GFP


True he got buffed four times.

But then again the emperor's insanely strong, he could easily take out a daemon primarch without breaking a sweat, hence why horus got buffed four times over.

And also the emperor isn't a normal human, then again I never thought he was and apparently what I've been thinking has evolved into a theory that he isn't human but rather an old one.


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## Coder59

Malus Darkblade said:


> Horus kicked the emperor's ass, the most powerful psycher in the universe and the strongest 'human' ever.
> 
> The emp only won because sanguinius pierced horus's armor and some say horus went easy on the emperor.


Er wrong. Sorry but you're dead wrong there. This is why the Chaos Gods used Horus. Not because there was something they could do to him that they could do to nobody else. But because in the final confrontation The Big E wouldn't want to strike down Horus. Yes Horus was tough but he was also the favoured and most beloved son, by using him and not mutating him beyond all recognition like say Angron or Mortarion all the Emperor could see was his boy and he still harboured that very human emotion that Horus could be brought back and subcontiously limited himself. 

When the Big E DID use his full power he killed Horus in one shot. 

Anyway back on topic. Like has allready been said I think Sanguinius having a clearer head and more experience fighting on the wing is going to tip the battle. People seem to assume that Daemon= miles better. But I disagree I've had moments on the tabletop were Daemon Princes have been ripped a new one by Space Marine Captains who's to say the same sort of thing couldn't happen with the Primarchs?

We also have to ask ourselves where does Daemon Angron stand when compared to Kyriss the Perverse and Ka'Bhanda (spelling?) Who were both unique greater Daemons. Ka'Bhanda is also described as the greatest of the Blood Thirsters of Khorne and we all know what Sanguinius did to him, sure he got beat up but he still won! Remember Sanguinius is named the Bane of Daemons If I was a Daemon Primarch I would stay the futch away from him....and Rogal Dorn.


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## Malus Darkblade

Coder59 said:


> Er wrong. Sorry but you're dead wrong there. This is why the Chaos Gods used Horus. Not because there was something they could do to him that they could do to nobody else. But because in the final confrontation The Big E wouldn't want to strike down Horus. Yes Horus was tough but he was also the favoured and most beloved son, by using him and not mutating him beyond all recognition like say Angron or Mortarion all the Emperor could see was his boy and he still harboured that very human emotion that Horus could be brought back and subcontiously limited himself.
> 
> When the Big E DID use his full power he killed Horus in one shot.


So the Chaos powers for over the span of a hundred+ years chose Horus as their vessel because they assumed the Emp wouldn't kill him or go full force out of love for Horus, especially if they made him retain his humanoid form?

Doesn't sound logical.

And the emp didn't kill him in one shot, first sang. had to rip an opening into Horus's seemingly impenetrable armor (one definite sign that the chaos powers didn't choose horus in their hopes that the emp. wouldn't go full kill mode on him since they buffed his armor to crazy levels) then a huge battle ensued with the emp. finally destroying horus's soul. 

The long battle is a fact because of how long it took for Dorn to get from wherever he was in space at the time to the emp, and then found him dying on the stairs.

It wasn't a five minute thing with the emp going 'oh snap horus u disrepectin' me, imma cut you foo' 'BRING IT'.




Coder59 said:


> Anyway back on topic. Like has allready been said I think Sanguinius having a clearer head and more experience fighting on the wing is going to tip the battle. People seem to assume that Daemon= miles better. But I disagree I've had moments on the tabletop were Daemon Princes have been ripped a new one by Space Marine Captains who's to say the same sort of thing couldn't happen with the Primarchs?
> 
> We also have to ask ourselves where does Daemon Angron stand when compared to Kyriss the Perverse and Ka'Bhanda (spelling?) Who were both unique greater Daemons. Ka'Bhanda is also described as the greatest of the Blood Thirsters of Khorne and we all know what Sanguinius did to him, sure he got beat up but he still won! Remember Sanguinius is named the Bane of Daemons If I was a Daemon Primarch I would stay the futch away from him....and Rogal Dorn.


Again, Daemon Primarch = he's like 20 feet tall, AKA HUGE. Sang never killed a daemon primarch, just some bloodletters who if I'm not mistaken are not very intelligent, just bloodthirsty and strong but if I'm mistaken on that, I'm positive they aren't nearly as intelligent as a Primarch. Angron, being a Primarch and a Daemon AKA Daemon Prince, is just going to destroy Sang. Just because Sang can fly means nothing, he still has to get into melee range in order to fight Angron who as I stated earlier could just grab him in mid air and pluck his wings like a fly and proceed to destroy him.

Tabletop is tabletop, I never got into the board-game with their special rules and whatever, I'm sticking by the novels/fluff/logic.

Rogal Dorn is a joke, the Night Haunter destroyed him easily and he was just mad, not even a daemon prince. It depends on the mentality of that person, there have been many instances of skinny people beating up people bigger than them because of their aggressive natures.

I don't think the Night Haunter was that different from RDorn physically but mentally he was in a whole different league, he was extremely aggressive and battle hardened. So the same can be said of Angron but he was the most aggressive of the primarchs by at least tenfold. His gladiatorial past, use of aggressive enhancers, killing eldar assassins the moment he landed as a child/young adult, etc. all indicate this.

And the fight can pretty much be summarized into daemon primarchs being essentially immortal so he can't really lose.


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## kaled

To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).

Also, when they were both 'normal' primarchs, Sanguinius had wings and Angron didn't, but Corax wasn't sure that Sanguinius would win. I don't see that Angron being gifted a pair of wings suddenly make him less capable of defeating Sanguinius if he had a better than even chance of winning without them?

I also believe it's a mistake to think of Angron as little more than a mindless berserker - he may be more inclined than his brothers to give in to his rage, but he's still an engineered superhuman created to be a powerful warrior with both body and mind. Angron may not be as much of a thinker as some of his brothers, but he's still a Primarch and I don't see that Sanguinius would have as much of an advantage on that score as others seem to think.

The talk of Sanguinius having this weapon or that weapon seems fairly irrelevant - all of the primarchs had their favoured weapons and it appears that they were all extremely potent. Sanguinius may have had a powerful weapon that perfectly suits his style of fighting, but then so would Angron. I'm therefore inclined to say that they'd cancel each other out in terms of deciding who'd win this fight.

For me it boils down to the question of would Angron be more or less powerful after his ascension? Well, every account I can think of where a mortal is elevated to daemonhood has them being considerably more powerful afterwards and I don't remember any instance of them needing much time to adapt to their new form - their new powers seem to come naturally to them. Assuming that this is the case with Angron (and as far as I can see there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't be) then yes, Angron would be more powerful afterwards. Of course, as has been mentioned, the changes wrought to his body will also change the nature of his power - he may be more powerful overall, but it's possible that the changes will leave an opening for Sanguinius to exploit.

Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


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## Malus Darkblade

kaled said:


> To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).
> 
> Also, when they were both 'normal' primarchs, Sanguinius had wings and Angron didn't, but Corax wasn't sure that Sanguinius would win. I don't see that Angron being gifted a pair of wings suddenly make him less capable of defeating Sanguinius if he had a better than even chance of winning without them?
> 
> I also believe it's a mistake to think of Angron as little more than a mindless berserker - he may be more inclined than his brothers to give in to his rage, but he's still an engineered superhuman created to be a powerful warrior with both body and mind. Angron may not be as much of a thinker as some of his brothers, but he's still a Primarch and I don't see that Sanguinius would have as much of an advantage on that score as others seem to think.
> 
> The talk of Sanguinius having this weapon or that weapon seems fairly irrelevant - all of the primarchs had their favoured weapons and it appears that they were all extremely potent. Sanguinius may have had a powerful weapon that perfectly suits his style of fighting, but then so would Angron. I'm therefore inclined to say that they'd cancel each other out in terms of deciding who'd win this fight.
> 
> For me it boils down to the question of would Angron be more or less powerful after his ascension? Well, every account I can think of where a mortal is elevated to daemonhood has them being considerably more powerful afterwards and I don't remember any instance of them needing much time to adapt to their new form - their new powers seem to come naturally to them. Assuming that this is the case with Angron (and as far as I can see there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't be) then yes, Angron would be more powerful afterwards. Of course, as has been mentioned, the changes wrought to his body will also change the nature of his power - he may be more powerful overall, but it's possible that the changes will leave an opening for Sanguinius to exploit.
> 
> Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


I agree fully.

Angron is the most aggressive of the Primarchs, with Night Haunter being the most sadistic/darkest. 

If Angron were to fight Sang. on equal grounds (the former not being a daemon and the latter having his wings), Angron would win hands down due to his ruthelessness which would add to his strength by a huge margin despite pretty boy's ability to fly.

I don't get why people assume that simply because Sang. can fly he automatically wins.

Can an eagle take on a lion simply because it can fly?

If people are going to go down the 'but sang. can hit and run' road, don't think Angron wouldn't know what to do or that he wouldn't be able to cut Sang. down.

Angron was a gladiator, he knows all the methods of brutal fighting, dirty or otherwise.

Angron could easily aim for Sang's wings, clipping him or fully slicing them off with whatever weapon he usually uses or with his brute strength.

Bottom line: aggressive primarch with no rules versus text-book heroic primarch


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Coder59 said:


> Ka'Bhanda is also described as the greatest of the Blood Thirsters of Khorne and we all know what Sanguinius did to him, sure he got beat up but he still won!


Ka'Bandha was described as the 'Lord of Bloodthirsters' I believe in the CV, but it seems evident that there are more powerful Greater Daemons (Skarbrand and An'ggrath spring to mind). Yes Sanguinius besting Ka'Bandha was a great feat of arms, but let us not forget that during there first encounter Ka'Bandha triumphed, broke Sanguinius' legs, but spared his life so he could witness his legion get butchered - this was such an event that began the manifestation of the Black Rage/Red Thirst. 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.


Thats a good point, but I would still say that rising to Daemonhood makes one more powerful.

They become immortal, unkillable, a living avatar of their patron god. Angron's fury and strength is all but unmatched, except perhaps by the greatest and oldest of Bloodthirsters and by Doombreed. 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time?


Ascending to Daemonhood isn't an endeavour that takes a few years to complete, it is insant and full - the individual is reborn in mind, body and soul. Mortal becomes Daemonic in every aspect and fibre of being. Angron's fury, abilities, strength and battle prowess simply all got greatly enhanced. He became removed (more so than he originally was) from human morality, social burdens, and other distractions. And now is a literal manifestation of Rage, Fury and Anger. A diobolic monster that cannot be killed and cannot be bested. 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand? EG, As a Daemon of Khorne, will Angron just be able to power himself with the immortal anger of Khorne himself, or could he make the ground turn to water and turn bystanders into spawn as well?


Well I assume it depends. Daemons of Khorne represent and are arguably a part of the Blood God himself, thus manifest as Avatars of Khorne. They are brutal, direct, strong and full of unending rage. 

Turning the ground to water and gifting bystanders with spawndom reeks of sorcery to me, best leave that to the Tzeentchians, and leave bashing to the Khornates  



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> In the end, is a daemon Primarch better in every way, or would Angron just be more, well, Angron-y? In there, somewhere, I feel might lie some way of making a choice that isn't just based on what character you happen to like most.


Saying he is better in every way in this regard is relative. They are different beings completley. Sanguinius is human (as far as being a Primarch allows him to be anyway), Angron is daemon. This in itself puts them on vastly different playing fields.

But seeing as though Angron (Pre-Ascension) was arguably one of the most, if not the most martial primarch, and seeing his rage, strength, power and influence vastly improved by ascending to Daemonhood - aside from the fact that he is now unkillable and removed completely from mortal 'hinderances', now a living Avatar of the Blood God - in my opinion puts him at a great advantage in regards to facing Sanguinius.



kaled said:


> To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).





kaled said:


> Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


Totally Agree.


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## Baron Spikey

Malus Darkblade said:


> And the emp didn't kill him in one shot, first sang. had to rip an opening into Horus's seemingly impenetrable armor (one definite sign that the chaos powers didn't choose horus in their hopes that the emp. wouldn't go full kill mode on him since they buffed his armor to crazy levels) then a huge battle ensued with the emp. finally destroying horus's soul.


Erm where on earth have you gotten the idea that Sangunius breached Horus' armour, and that that infact aided the Emperor?


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## Thousandth Son

I think different people are getting their takes on what happened between the final battle of the Emperor and Horus from different books. If I'm not mistaken, each Warhammer rulebook has tweaked the story of the Emperor and Horus. For example, in one story it states that a lone Custodian found the Emperor, while a newer version thats that it was Rogal Dorn. I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one ***** in Horus's armour, but it was with that ***** that the Emperor was able to kill Horus. In fact I think I remember one edition saying that a lone guardsman stood over the Emperor's dying form and defied Horus before being cut down in one stroke, and it was this that made the Emperor see what his son had become.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So the Chaos powers for over the span of a hundred+ years chose Horus as their vessel because they assumed the Emp wouldn't kill him or go full force out of love for Horus, especially if they made him retain his humanoid form?
> 
> Doesn't sound logical.


I think it sounds perfectly logical. They could have used any warrior to be their vessel, and arguably there were better candidates for possession- Sanguinius for example, who (again, arguably) was a better fighter than Horus. The Gods chose Horus not because he was a good fighter, good tactician, or whatever (even though he was many of those things), but because when it came down the final confrontation the Emperor would not be able to bring himself to kill his beloved son. They knew that martial skill would mean nothing to the Emperor's abilities, so they went the clever path. They almost assured their victory, knowing the love between the son and father. It was only Horus's bloodlust (killing the lone guardsman/Custodian, different rulebooks disagree) that allowed to the Emperor to mentally flay Horus apart.


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## Malus Darkblade

Baron Spikey said:


> Erm where on earth have you gotten the idea that Sangunius breached Horus' armour, and that that infact aided the Emperor?


It's something well established in the WH40k story line... see below.



Thousandth Son said:


> *I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one ***** in Horus's armour, but it was with that ***** that the Emperor was able to kill Horus.*





Thousandth Son said:


> I think it sounds perfectly logical. They could have used any warrior to be their vessel, and arguably there were better candidates for possession-
> Sanguinius for example, who (again, arguably) was a better fighter than Horus. The Gods chose Horus not because he was a good fighter, good tactician, or whatever (even though he was many of those things), but because when it came down the final confrontation the Emperor would not be able to bring himself to kill his beloved son. They knew that martial skill would mean nothing to the Emperor's abilities, so they went the clever path.


Horus is stated to have been the best fighter amongst the Primarchs. But yes they didn't pick him due to his marital prowess.



Thousandth Son said:


> They almost assured their victory, knowing the love between the son and father. It was only Horus's bloodlust (killing the lone guardsman/Custodian, different rulebooks disagree) that allowed to the Emperor to mentally flay Horus apart.


That's according to you, I follow the more mainstream version of Horus's defeat being due partially to battling with Sanguinius before confornting the emperor.

They couldn't have picked any other Primarch except for Horus.

Why?

Because he became flawed, doubting the purpose of the emperor's work and began to suspect the emperor of betraying the very concepts he taught his primarch sons and the imperium.

This paranoia was a result of the emperor placing the title of warmaster upon primarch and then retreating to his palace in terra for a period of several years and also was planted into Horus. The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:


Sanguinius's wings 

Magnus's eye

Russ's teeth/wolf persona 

aggressive un-primarch like traits like extreme aggression (Angron), 

Some were given less subtle forms of corruption:

The powers perhaps altered the course of some primarchs, like Nighthaunter, to land on awful planets that would change their blank mental states into something else, and in his case being a criminal-infested planet which turned him into a sadistic person 

Mortarion landing on a dark planet whose dark leader, whom he defied at the end, but nevertheless grew to love (something similar to stockholm syndrome), only to see the emperor strike down, leading Mortarion to hold a grudge against him.

And with Horus's case that was doubt.

Horus, becoming the Warmaster, was burdened with the control of the entire Imperium's every decision in a very hectic period. 
This stress began to eat away at his resolve, making his suspicions of the emperor begin to grow and grow. And the chaos powers seeing the time was ripe, sent Erebus to give the fabled sword Anathame to Eugen Tembato to poison the Horus and then Erebus set to work at corrupting the Horus with the aid of the chaos rituals at Davin.

They worked very hard at corrupting Horus, his position as the emperor's son was a very crucial step in their choosing of him as well for what better candidate for their goal of destroying/corrupting the Imperium than the emperor's most favorite and trusted son and the military leader of the war effort. 

The emperor's favoritism of horus enabled him to see many hidden secrets amongst other things that other primarchs weren't in a position to see.

Sanguinius as I mentioned earlier is a textbook hero and doubts and paranoia of the emperor were not placed into him like they were with horus. Horus was a born leader, and his personality of wanting to be in the seat of power and his large ambition to rise in power aided the chaos powers greatly in turning him to their side. Sanguinius was very subservient to the emperor and had no such ambition.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Thousandth Son said:


> I think different people are getting their takes on what happened between the final battle of the Emperor and Horus from different books. If I'm not mistaken, each Warhammer rulebook has tweaked the story of the Emperor and Horus. For example, in one story it states that a lone Custodian found the Emperor, while a newer version thats that it was Rogal Dorn. I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one ***** in Horus's armour, but it was with that ***** that the Emperor was able to kill Horus. In fact I think I remember one edition saying that a lone guardsman stood over the Emperor's dying form and defied Horus before being cut down in one stroke, and it was this that made the Emperor see what his son had become.


Indeed, there are several different accounts of the Emperor's duel with Horus. But regarding the account that stated that Sanguinius' sacrifice (by opening up a small hole in Horus' armour) was what enabled the Emperor to defeat Horus - is part of the older editions rather than the more recent ones. It may have actually been the first account of the duel released many years ago. I believe the most recent account (published in 2007) is the Collected Visions which didn't include Sanguinius damaging Horus' armour.


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## kaled

From what I remember, the original source says that Blood Angels doctrine claims that Sanguinius opened a ***** in the armour of Horus enabling the Emperor to slay Horus. It's not presented as a fact, by any means and may in fact be totally untrue - it's believed because, if true, it means that Sanguinius did not die in vain. The 'first hand' accounts of the duel between Horus and the Emperor (the one by William King for instance) don't include it.



> The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:


That's a whole lot of assumptions there - sure most of them fit the facts, but they're still speculation.


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## Thousandth Son

Malus Darkblade said:


> This paranoia was a result of the emperor placing the title of warmaster upon primarch and then retreating to his palace in terra for a period of several years and also was planted into Horus. The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:
> 
> 
> Sanguinius's wings
> 
> Magnus's eye
> 
> Russ's teeth/wolf persona
> 
> aggressive un-primarch like traits like extreme aggression (Angron),
> 
> Some were given less subtle forms of corruption:
> 
> The powers perhaps altered the course of some primarchs, like Nighthaunter, to land on awful planets that would change their blank mental states into something else, and in his case being a criminal-infested planet which turned him into a sadistic person
> 
> Mortarion landing on a dark planet whose dark leader, whom he defied at the end, but nevertheless grew to love (something similar to stockholm syndrome), only to see the emperor strike down, leading Mortarion to hold a grudge against him.
> 
> And with Horus's case that was doubt.
> .


Was it stated that Magnus lost his eye due to Chaos corruption anywhere?

I think Russ got his "wolfish persona" from the inhabitants of Fenris, not Chaos corruption.

Angron's angry behaviour is largely due to the various brain implants he has, increasing his anger and impatience tenfold.

Horus's doubt was largely due to Erebus's influence- although it is true his morale took quite a batter when the Emperor revealed to him that he was leaving the crusade.
Oh yes, and by the way, to your argument that Sanguinius was too much of a "textbook hero"- Chaos can corrupt anything, even the greatest of men.


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## kaled

And where is it written that Chaos guided some of the Primarchs to planets that would corrupt their mental state?


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## Thousandth Son

kaled said:


> And where is it written that Chaos guided some of the Primarchs to planets that would corrupt their mental state?


Indeed. Although I suppose it's possible, so I wouldn't rule it out.


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## kaled

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's not possible - but MD's post presented a lot of speculation as if it were fact. He may end up being right, but at the moment there's not enough evidence to back up his points.


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## 9th legion is the best

With the latest HH book, Sanguinius beats the crap out of daemon Angron.


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