# Imperial Fist Vs. Space Wolves



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Back track to the Horus Heresy, lets say in a what-if, the wolves are ordered to exterminate all of the Imperial Fist.

Dorn is aware of the orders, and gathers his entire legion together and begins to fortify his systems, fleets.

My question is this, can the entirety of the Wolves exterminate the entirety of the Imperial Fist?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

How many fake heads are each side equiped with and which side gets to use Hello Kitty?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh, for the love of god, not another one. :shok:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

While I'm not a fan of "versus" threads, considering the thread starter, this is actually a bit of a let down. It seems positively juvenile. Say what you will about him, but Lux strikes me as an extremely bright fella, and this seems a bit beneath him. How the mighty have fallen...

OT: the SWs would totally kick the Fists ass. Doesn't matter how high the wall the fists build, the Wolves cunning and ferocity will see them through. Even Magnus admitted in _Battle for the Fang_ that they were the fiercest legion of them all.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Check through Lux's threads and you'll see this is about the limit of his ability when it comes to 'sensible' threads, it's this or 'I believe the Emperor was a banana!'.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> While I'm not a fan of "versus" threads, considering the thread starter, this is actually a bit of a let down. It seems positively juvenile. Say what you will about him, but Lux strikes me as an extremely bright fella, and this seems a bit beneath him. How the mighty have fallen...
> 
> OT: the SWs would totally kick the Fists ass. Doesn't matter how high the wall the fists build, the Wolves cunning and ferocity will see them through. Even Magnus admitted in _Battle for the Fang_ that they were the fiercest legion of them all.


And Warmaster Horus stated that the Fists were the perfect defenders and the Luna Wolves the perfect attackers. Statements are good and all, and normally I judge by them, but they might not be 100 percent true if contridicted.

Frankly, I would go by the Wolves performance, which I was'nt too impressed by.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> And Warmaster Horus stated that the Fists were the perfect defenders and the Luna Wolves the perfect attackers. Statements are good and all, and normally I judge by them, but they might not be 100 percent true if contridicted.
> 
> Frankly, I would go by the Wolves performance, which I was'nt too impressed by.


Let's face it, Horus said a lot of things, but not a great deal of it actually panned out. :dunno:


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I would definitly bet money on Dorn holing out and defeating Russ. Other then the palace falling (which took a huge combined effort) I haven't heard about anyone taking out his defences. Fists all the way


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Wolves can't kill if they can't get near and I'm pretty sure the Fists would cut them down in great swathes. Also remember Imperial Fists are very capable duellists, it's part of their heritage and tradition along with the pain glove which opens them up to all kinds of pain. 

They are good all round marines and there's a reason the Emperor chose them as his Praetorians.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Let's face it, Horus said a lot of things, but not a great deal of it actually panned out. :dunno:


That one did actually, Dorn's fortifications enabled 3 Legions and the Custodes to hold off a much larger force that had orbital superiority and daemonic support under Horus's command.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> That one did actually, Dorn's fortifications enabled 3 Legions and the Custodes to hold off a much larger force that had orbital superiority and daemonic support under Horus's command.


That just shows he wasn't incompetent. It usually takes roughly twice the number of attacks to remove a defense. 

Honestly, in this, I am putting my money on the Wolves, if they can break the walls, that is. Though, TBH, this entire thing is stacked in the Fists favor.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well it is the entire Space Wolf legion, so they have everything at their disposal, which were assigned the task of eliminating the Imperial Fist.

So of course they have to siege their star systems, the same as they had to siege Magnus's world.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Gotta say Fists here, but it was a crap question in the first place. I mean, according to Lux they're probably both the same legion and worship Aun'va.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> They are good all round marines and there's a reason the Emperor chose them as his Honour guards.


Actually the Blood Angels were the Emperors honour guard. Then when he retired to Terra the Imperial Fists became his Praetorions, not quite the same thing. And they wern't chosen for being well rounded, they were chosen because they were obviously the best at building and holding defences(well the IW are pretty damn good too, but not quite as much).

I might just go with the Wolves on this one. I wouldn't put it past them to realise Dorn has made an inpeneterable fortress and just find a way to crash the planets moon into the planet to destroy it or just use cyclonic torpedoes to break apart the crust.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

If the fists knew about it and had time to prepare like was stated in the original post the fists would win hands down. 

I am picturing and Imperial Fists version of the Iron Cage, but specifically designed to stop the Wolves.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Wolves are unconventional, I could easily see them crashing one of their own ships, perhaps not even an empty one, into the Fist's defenses, destroying everything in one huge nuclear explosion.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

How would they get their ship into the Fists defenses? When the Imperial Fist have a navy of their own.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

A ship is more than capable of taking a few hits and so is a space hulk.

Especially if....


the Alpha Legion infiltrates into the Imperial Fist's stronghold and deactivates their laser beam defenses..

: O


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> Actually the Blood Angels were the Emperors honour guard. Then when he retired to Terra the Imperial Fists became his Praetorions, not quite the same thing. And they wern't chosen for being well rounded, they were chosen because they were obviously the best at building and holding defences(well the IW are pretty damn good too, but not quite as much).
> 
> I might just go with the Wolves on this one. I wouldn't put it past them to realise Dorn has made an inpeneterable fortress and just find a way to crash the planets moon into the planet to destroy it or just use cyclonic torpedoes to break apart the crust.


I was going to put Praetorians but I had a "blank" moment when I couldn't recall what the Emperor's own Bodyguard is (finally remembered is Custodes >.<)

Anyway, I didn't say they where chosen because they where well rounded, I was trying to make the point that the Imperial Fists are well rounded and could be entirely capable of taking on Space Wolves one on one.

The idea is flawed in the first place as the Imperial Fists call Terra home, having severed any claim on Rogal Dorn's original mini Empire. They where space based and thus if anything they'd called the _Phalanx_ home.

The Iron Cage was designed to beat the Fists, but it still failed. Rogal Dorn also knew it was designed to kill them and still committed his Chapter to it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> That just shows he wasn't incompetent. It usually takes roughly twice the number of attacks to remove a defense.


Horus most assuredly had more than twice the humber of enemy forces and orbital superiority to boot. I can't see Russ breaking Dorn's defenses given how much trouble the Thousand Sons hgve his Legion, despite having all of their defenses deactivated, the Wolves having a total element of suprise,the numbers advantage, orbital superiority, the enemy Primarch actively conspiring against his own Legion, and having allies that nullifed the Son's powers.



gen.ahab said:


> Honestly, in this, I am putting my money on the Wolves, if they can break the walls, that is. Though, TBH, this entire thing is stacked in the Fists favor.


Why? It's just Legion against Legion. Last time Russ had everything stacked in his favor when attacking the Sons now the Wolves have to do it by themselves without Dorn sabotaging his own Legion.



gen.ahab said:


> Honestly, in this, I am putting my money on the Wolves, if they can break the walls, that is. Though, TBH, this entire thing is stacked in the Fists favor.


Why it's just Legion against Legion. Last time Russ had everything stacked in his favor when attacking the Sons now the Wolves have to do it by themselves without Dorn sabotaging his own Legion.



Angel of Blood said:


> Actually the Blood Angels were the Emperors honour guard. Then when he retired to Terra the Imperial Fists became his Praetorions, not quite the same thing. And they wern't chosen for being well rounded, they were chosen because they were obviously the best at building and holding defences(well the IW are pretty damn good too, but not quite as much).


The Fists where the Emperor's strategic reserve as noted in Index Astartes. They were always his Praetorians, not just on the return to Terra.



> The Legion's early actions were extremely successful; while the Great Crusade pushed forward, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces. Able to deploy quickly and reliably where and when required, the Imperial Fists struck the decisive blow in many battles. Their detailed planning made them especially efficient at sieges and their resolute endurance made them superb city fighters. They remained the Emperor's Praetorians throughout the campaign and when he returned to Terra to build a capital from which to rule an Empire of a million worlds, the Emperor took Rogal Dorn with him.





Angel of Blood said:


> I might just go with the Wolves on this one. I wouldn't put it past them to realise Dorn has made an inpeneterable fortress and just find a way to crash the planets moon into the planet to destroy it or just use cyclonic torpedoes to break apart the crust.


You mean just like when they chrased Prospero's moon into Tizca-oh wait a minute.........

Frankly, Dorn's fleet and orbital defenses will be on an entirely different level then the Quietide, and the Wolves still had to go in on the ground to finish off the Quetitude.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Wolves are unconventional, I could easily see them crashing one of their own ships, perhaps not even an empty one, into the Fist's defenses, destroying everything in one huge nuclear explosion.


They are unconventional but also very honor driven. The whole rivalry with the DA was because the Lion killed the guy who insulted Russ. If the IF let some insults reach the ears of the wolves they might act very predictably.

Also the wolves would have to get passed the massive Phalax, then take a heavily fortified planet bristling with anti aircraft and ordinance weapons, killing fields, block houses etc. And as tough as that would be against a general fortification, this one would be designed around the past victories and losses of the space wolves.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Well at least Lux decided to not try and convince us all that the Imp. fist were really the traitors and Abbadon had a love affair with St. Celestine.

Anyway I give to the fists IMO I also root for the underdog anyway and well lets face though they maybe canines the SW are definately not the underdogs here. 

Dorn is a brilliant defender and tactician and the SW are the best at assault (minus some other legions out there) and well I just think Dorn could keep em at bay pretty good


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> The Fists where the Emperor's strategic reserve as noted in Index Astartes. They were always his Praetorians, not just on the return to Terra.


Regardless, the Blood Angels were still the Emperors honor guard Legion during the Great Crusade.



Gree said:


> Frankly, Dorn's fleet and orbital defenses will be on an entirely different level then the Quietide, and the Wolves still had to go in on the ground to finish off the Quetitude.


True enough, but assuming the fleet battle goes well enough i would like to see any defence that can stop a moon impacting the planet. I'm just trying to throw examples out. If you throw everything in any Legions favour they are probably going to win, its a completely biased scenario.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Cowlicker16 said:


> I would definitly bet money on Dorn holing out and defeating Russ. Other then the palace falling (which took a huge combined effort) I haven't heard about anyone taking out his defences. Fists all the way


Well, I don't know about Dorn specifically, but it *is* mentioned in the one short story in _Age of Darkness_, featuring the Iron Warrior Warsmith, that the Fists did indeed have a few blunders with regards to their fortresses.

That being said, I'd still back the Fists, seeing as the siege warfare and defence game is their speciality. Now if it was more a situation of both sides meeting on an open battlefield, like the Urgal depression at Istvann, and just going at it head to head, then I'd probably back the Rout.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, I don't know about Dorn specifically, but it *is* mentioned in the one short story in _Age of Darkness_, featuring the Iron Warrior Warsmith, that the Fists did indeed have a few blunders with regards to their fortresses.


In the fists defence, it was said by an Iron Warrior, not exactly BFFs with the Imperial Fists


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> In the fists defence, it was said by an Iron Warrior, not exactly BFFs with the Imperial Fists


And you would take an Imperial Fist's word if he says it's flawless? I would side with the IW's statement, he would have no reason to lie about the enemy creating a flawed defense only to be proven wrong.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Why? It's just Legion against Legion. Last time Russ had everything stacked in his favor when attacking the Sons now the Wolves have to do it by themselves without Dorn sabotaging his own Legion.


The sons were probably the single most dangerous legion at that time, and they still had defensible positions, so I am not surprised they gave the wolves some trouble. However, the IF outnumber the wolves, they have weeks, if not months to reinforce their already fortified positions, and they have fleet superiority, and the wolves will have to establish and hold supply lines while the IF don't.... how is it not stacked in their favor?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Regardless, the Blood Angels were still the Emperors honor guard Legion during the Great Crusade.


I'm sure in Ward's retcon they where, but you know how much I take Ward's fanfic seriously.



Angel of Blood said:


> True enough, but assuming the fleet battle goes well enough i would like to see any defence that can stop a moon impacting the planet. I'm just trying to throw examples out. If you throw everything in any Legions favour they are probably going to win, its a completely biased scenario.


First of all the Wolves have not done that on Prospero, second of all do they even have the technology for doing that? A orbital station is very different from a moon, and lastly how are they going to crash a moon ino the Phalanx?



gen.ahab said:


> The sons were probably the single most dangerous legion at that time, and they still had defensible positions, so I am not surprised they gave the wolves some trouble. r?


There was no way the Sons could have won that battle. You could have put any Legion into the Wolves position and gotten the exact same results. 

And no, the ''defensible positions'' were hastily formed lines in Tizca after the Sons where caught completely off-guard. It's a far cry from Dorn's fortification masterpeices.



gen.ahab said:


> However, the IF outnumber the wolves, they have weeks, if not months to reinforce their already fortified positions, and they have fleet superiority, and the wolves will have to establish and hold supply lines while the IF don't.... how is it now stacked in their favor?


Where are you getting this from? I don't recall any statements about IF Legion size or what planet they are defending or the size of the IF fleet or the status of the IF supply lines.

It's just one Legion and their resources pitted against another Legion and their resources. Both Legions get what they normally would have with nothign extra added (Custodes for example).

If the Fists have better supplies, a bigger fleet of anything like that, then that simply means they natrually would have an advantage of the Wolves without any outside help.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> The sons were probably the single most dangerous legion at that time


How so? They are lackluster in everything except sorcery, especially close combat. Some of them just use sorcery to teach them how to fight apparently.



gen.ahab said:


> so I am not surprised they gave the wolves some trouble.


The only trouble they gave the Wolves was when they went crazy on the psyker spells but then that was nullified with the arrival of the SoS.



gen.ahab said:


> However, the IF outnumber the wolves, they have weeks, if not months to reinforce their already fortified positions, and they have fleet superiority, and the wolves will have to establish and hold supply lines while the IF don't.... how is it now stacked in their favor?


You keep thinking the Wolves fight like other legions. They will employ tactics that the other legions won't guess or assume anyone sane will attempt. (I don't think the Wolves even use supply lines lol.)

What can stop an Astartes cruiser from gathering momentum and crashing into a certain location and destroying everything in the vicinity? 

The Orks seem to be masters of that.

And all this talk of the Phalanx when entire Craftworlds have been destroyed. It's big and it's powerful, but we know next to nothing about it and regardless, nothing is unstoppable.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What can stop an Astartes cruiser from gathering momentum and crashing into a certain location and destroying everything in the vicinity?


Being blown to bits by ships or by orbital defenses? The Wolves did't do that on Prospero certainly, when total annhilation was the objective.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> How so? They are lackluster in everything except sorcery, especially close combat. Some of them just use sorcery to teach them how to fight apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They were doing massive damage to the wolves before they made it to the lines. I firmly believe that the Sons were one of the most dangerous legions, as far as raw power per individual marine goes. 

The GK crashed their strike cruiser into the lines of an imperial force in one of the GK books... it doesn't do nearly as much damage as one would think. 

You need supply lines; you cannot lay siege to an entire heavily fortified position without supply lines. The only alternative would be bringing massive supply ships with you, and then you would have to allocate forces to protect them.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Gree said:


> Being blown to bits by ships or by orbital defenses? The Wolves did't do that on Prospero certainly, when total annhilation was the objective.


If orbital defenses were so reliable, the third war for Armageddon would not of occurred or the million other examples of space hulks, ships, etc. landing on planets and regardless of horrendous damage, unloading their cargo/payload.



gen.ahab said:


> They were doing massive damage to the wolves before they made it to the lines.


Where is this mentioned?



gen.ahab said:


> I firmly believe that the Sons were one of the most dangerous legions, as far as raw power per individual marine goes.


Yeah.... not really.



gen.ahab said:


> The GK crashed their strike cruiser into the lines of an imperial force in one of the GK books... it doesn't do nearly as much damage as one would think.


Those GK novels should not be taken seriously because in those same books, Grey Knights are weaker than Sisters of Battle.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If orbital defenses were so reliable, the third war for Armageddon would not of occurred and the million other examples of space hulks, ships, etc. landing on planets with damage but unloading its cargo/payload regardless.


The orbital defenses of Armageddon would most certainly be different to he defenses of an Astartes homeworld or the Phalanx or anything made by Rogal Dorn of all people. How many of those planets were as heavily defeneded as a palce fortifed and made by Rogal Dorn?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> Where are you getting this from? I don't recall any statements about IF Legion size or what planet they are defending or the size of the IF fleet or the status of the IF supply lines.
> 
> It's just one Legion and their resources pitted against another Legion and their resources. Both Legions get what they normally would have with nothign extra added (Custodes for example).
> 
> If the Fists have better supplies, a bigger fleet of anything like that, then that simply means they natrually would have an advantage of the Wolves without any outside help.


Dorn was the King of a small empire, similar to that of Roboute's but lesser in scale. For some reason however he never let on where it was when he met the Emperor aboard the Phalanx he was planning to give the Emperor as a present.

I believe though that he was brought up on an ice world similar to Fenris but a lot less hostile, called Inwit.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> There was no way the Sons could have won that battle. You could have put any Legion into the Wolves position and gotten the exact same results.
> Did I ever say they would have?
> 
> 
> ...


Blah blu blee blu


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Gree said:


> The orbital defenses of Armageddon would most certainly be different to he defenses of an Astartes homeworld or the Phalanx or anything made by Rogal Dorn of all people. How many of those planets were as heavily defeneded as a palce fortifed and made by Rogal Dorn?


Armageddon was reinforced by like a hundred different Astares chapters, each with their own methods and techniques of defending a planet.

There are several Astartes homeworlds that have been wiped out by Orks and Tyranids landing via space hulk, etc. 

Also lolrynn'sworld.

Rogal Dorn couldn't stop the Palace on Terra from being breached.

And yeah the Phalanx, it's powerful but we known nothing of its capabilities other than 'it has alotta guns and armor'


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Dorn was the King of a small empire, similar to that of Roboute's but lesser in scale. For some reason however he never let on where it was when he met the Emperor aboard the Phalanx he was planning to give the Emperor as a present.


He was? Index Astartes Imperial Fists just states Dorn was raised on Inwit, nothing about an Empire.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Armageddon was reinforced by like a hundred different Astares chapters, each with their own methods and techniques of defending a planet.
> 
> Rogal Dorn couldn't stop the Palace on Terra from being breached.


You serious? The Astartes chapter arrived after the orks had already landed. And Dorn's defenses on Holy Terra itself are very different when compared to Armageddon. Warmaster Horus's fleet is sure as hell much more dangerous and bigger than the attack that hit Armageddon.



Malus Darkblade said:


> There are several Astartes homeworlds that have been wiped out by Orks and Tyranids landing via space hulk, etc.


Where? I've certainly never heard of that.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also lolrynn'sworld.


.....And? Have you ever actually read the novel Rynn's World?
Also gen.habd, it's hard to reply ot you when you quote like this. But I'l try my best.



> Did I ever say they would have?


You implied that the Sons actually stood a chance of winning.



> Did I ever say they would compare?


I was referring actually to the fact that you seemed ot think they woudl matter at all.



> From what I heard, the wolves were one of the smaller legions, and the IF had a fairly sizable fleet.


The Wolves wwhere one of the smaller LEgions, but we haqve no idea as to the size of the IF Legion or fleet.



> According the Lux, it is an IF system. .


The Fists have no systems, Dorn was noted for not being a ruler and only asking for recruits. They would have to find one and start fortifying it 
from stratch, not beforehand.



> No, the situation is that the wolves are laying siege to an already heavily fortified system held be a forewarned IF legion.


....Yes and? That's nothing the Legions would not normally have. (Putting aside that the Fists have no systems like Ultramar for example.) How is that stacked


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Where is this mentioned?
> They were ripping the shit out of the wolves till they the wolves got their teeth in. Oh, and in _A Thousand Sons_
> 
> 
> ...


Tenfuckinwords.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> He was? Index Astartes Imperial Fists just states Dorn was raised on Inwit, nothing about an Empire.


It's been a while but as a devoted follower of Dorn from such a young age, I still remember a lot of what it said. Either way h ere's what Lexicanum says -

"Very little is known about Rogal Dorn's youth. It is believed that that he was raised on the planet of Inwit in the system of the same name by an ice-caste native to the Ice Hives of the world. The patriarch of the clan that raised him became as a grandfather to him, and taught him much of tactics. Even after he discovered he was not blood-related to his 'grandfather' Dorn held his memory in high value; he kept a fur-edged robe that had belonged to the man and slept with it on his bed every night. *Eventually Rogal Dorn became the leader not only of his caste but of the whole world and then the surrounding region of space, ruling the Inwit Cluster as Emperor of the House of Dorn.*"


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Armageddon was reinforced by like a hundred different Astares chapters, each with their own methods and techniques of defending a planet.
> 
> There are several Astartes homeworlds that have been wiped out by Orks and Tyranids landing via space hulk, etc.
> 
> ...


Have you read the novel _Rynn's World_?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

For all those talking about legion size differences, I'd be willing to bet that the Fists would definitely be a larger legion than the Wolves. It just makes sense logically, as the Wolves would likely have suffered considerable losses when they were sanctioning one (or both) of the unknown legions. Astartes vs Astartes wars are always gonna result for large amounts of casualties for both sides, regardless of who is victorious.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's been a while but as a devoted follower of Dorn from such a young age, I still remember a lot of what it said. Either way h ere's what Lexicanum says -
> 
> "Very little is known about Rogal Dorn's youth. It is believed that that he was raised on the planet of Inwit in the system of the same name by an ice-caste native to the Ice Hives of the world. The patriarch of the clan that raised him became as a grandfather to him, and taught him much of tactics. Even after he discovered he was not blood-related to his 'grandfather' Dorn held his memory in high value; he kept a fur-edged robe that had belonged to the man and slept with it on his bed every night. *Eventually Rogal Dorn became the leader not only of his caste but of the whole world and then the surrounding region of space, ruling the Inwit Cluster as Emperor of the House of Dorn.*"


Lexicanum is not reliable source. I've seen errors on it before. Frnakly I trust only when taken directly from sources.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Gree said:


> You serious? The Astartes chapter arrived after the orks had already landed.


lolwut? They landed via a million space hulks/ships/roks. There were a few feral tribes left over from the previous war I think but they were just a nuisance.



Gree said:


> And Dorn's defenses on Holy Terra itself are very different when compared to Armageddon. Warmaster Horus's fleet is sure as hell much more dangerous and bigger than the attack that hit Armageddon.


True but my point was that Dorn despite being a master of fortifications, his works are not as unassailable as several here claim.

@ahab: kay.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Have you read the novel _Rynn's World_?


Have you read the book Bossypants by Tina Fey?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> lolwut? They landed via a million space hulks/ships/roks. There were a few feral tribes left over from the previous war I think but they were just a nuisance.


.....Yes I know, but I don't see how that contridicts my statement at all or supports your argument. The Astartes chapters arrived as part of a call of renforcement according to my copy of Codex Armageddon. They were'nt there for very long beforehand as part of a garrison. They hardly had time to fortify.

Read Helsreach.



Malus Darkblade said:


> True but my point was that Dorn despite being a master of fortifications, his works are not as unassailable as several here claim.


The resources avalible to Russ are going to be much, much lesser than what Warmaster Horus, Leader of the Nine Traitor Legions and Champion of the Dark Powers, will have.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Have you read the book Bossypants by Tina Fey?


Fey's work has nothing to do with Rynn's World, if you hav't read the source novel in question then don't make claims about it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Also gen.habd, it's hard to reply ot you when you quote like this. But I'l try my best.
> 
> It is ok, you can just give a synopsis, you don't have to take the time to copy and paste.
> 
> ...


Dudidydoodaaaaaaa


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> Lexicanum is not reliable source. I've seen errors on it before. Frnakly I trust only when taken directly from sources.


Well, if you'll take my word from it, that's what's included in the article. If someone happens to have the article that would be helpful


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

> It is ok, you can just give a synopsis, you don't have to take the time to copy and paste.


How else will I take apart your arguments piece by piece?



> No, never did, you just thought that I did.


You phrased it poorly then.



> I would assume it was larger.


An assumption then? No sources? 




> ...... Point, that isn't the situation offered up by lux.


Well then putting aside Lux being wrong about the Fists we can assume Dorn has prep time in this case, a good advantage, but not a game breaker.



> You have to assume that they do, because the situation demands it.


I don't see how it's stacked, fortifying a system with some prepe time is no game breaking advantage or something the Fists would not normally have outside their command structure.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I actually think the infomation on Inwit and his own little empire may of been in the lightning tower, all I know is that I definitely read it somewhere in print.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> In fact here is a link to scribd with the compilation including the Imperial fists
> 
> Page 69


First of all putting up stuff like that is illegal technically, second of all I already have acess to all four volumes of the Index Astartes series.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Gree said:


> .....Yes I know, but I don't see how that contridicts my statement at all or supports your argument.


My _argument _was that the many Astartes chapters landed prior to the invasion of the Orks, perhaps a few landed a while after.



Gree said:


> The Astartes chapters arrived as part of a call of renforcement according to my copy of Codex Armageddon. They were'nt there for very long beforehand as part of a garrison. They hardly had time to fortify.
> 
> Read Helsreach.


Funny I was just going to tell you that.

It doesn't matter how many days you have to set up an orbital defense grid. When you have that amount of orks trying to land, it will happen.



Gree said:


> Fey's work has nothing to do with Rynn's World, if you hav't read the source novel in question then don't make claims about it.


You would be surprised by how much her works has to do not just with the WH universe but with the realm of the metaphysical. My dear Gree, you have not experienced life until you have thumbed through _Bossypants_.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> How else will I take apart your arguments piece by piece?
> 
> :laugh: Nice.
> 
> ...


hfhaihhfhasdf BLAH


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> First of all putting up stuff like that is illegal technically, second of all I already have acess to all four volumes of the Index Astartes series.


Got rid of it, didn't know linking to stuff out of print was illegal sorry.

Anyway as I said, the info regarding his home system may be from the lightning tower. I'll dig out my copy tomorrow and have a look.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

> None at all, but I feel it would be a safe bet. Don't you?





> IAgain, I never said it was a game breaker, just that it was stacked in the IF favor, IOW, they have an advantage.


A small advantage, but hardly something that grants automatic victory, instead such an advantage already stems from Dorn's own skills



Words_of_Truth said:


> Got rid of it, didn't know linking to stuff out of print was illegal sorry.


GW lawyers are always on the prowl, quoting stuff is fine, but posting up stuff like that tends to get it taken down on other sites.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Anyway as I said, the info regarding his home system may be from the lightning tower. I'll dig out my copy tomorrow and have a look.


I already found my copy, yes I admit to being wrong, but he certainly doesn't rule those holdings by the Heresy, going by Dorn's tone in the chapbook.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Have you read the book Bossypants by Tina Fey?


No but we ain't discussing Tina Fey, if you'd of read Rynn's World you'd understand the problems and disastrous events that occurred for the world to come that close to falling.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> A small advantage, but hardly something that grants automatic victory, instead such an advantage already stems from Dorn's own skills


Well, I would tend to believe it would be more than just a slight advantage, but that's just opinion.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> No but we ain't discussing Tina Fey, if you'd of read Rynn's World you'd understand the problems and disastrous events that occurred for the world to come that close to falling.


If you connected the dots, you would understand the point I was trying to make, being that a well defended Astartes homeworld and fortress was taken over due to a single friendly-fire missile.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> I already found my copy, yes I admit to being wrong, but he certainly doesn't rule those holdings by the Heresy, going by Dorn's tone in the chapbook.


Yeah. All I'm saying though is if Terra is not being used as the Imperial Fists home world as it is normally, then the next best thing to use in this hypothetical battle would be his home system, as it's apparently used to recruit.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If you connected the dots, you would understand the point I was trying to make, being that a well defended Astartes homeworld and fortress was taken over due to a single friendly-fire missile.


It wasn't though, there was a lot more going on and a lot more reasons as to why it barely survived, you can't take it at face value without reading what actually happened.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)




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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


>


Someone needs to hit the gym.


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## 777swappamag777 (Jul 15, 2011)

space wolver

wait no imperial fists

wait no sapace wolves

actually imperial fists all the way


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Get off the diet of Spam folks.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ahhh but everyone want to get the Dark Desciple award.

As for this discussion, Given the scenario, IF easily. looking at past posts.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm allergic to spam


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

For Astartes legion styles make fights

In a siege defense situation, I think the IF would wipe the floor with the SW 
even with the Custodes and Silent Sisters, the SW already had enough trouble with the TS who were fighting with a big handicap (Magnus sabotaging the defenses, preventing the TS from detecting the invaders before the invasion actually began) 



Gree said:


> I can't see Russ breaking Dorn's defenses given how much trouble the Thousand Sons gave his Legion, despite having all of their defenses deactivated, the Wolves having a total element of suprise,the numbers advantage, orbital superiority, the enemy Primarch actively conspiring against his own Legion, and having allies that nullifed the Son's powers.


yes this seems to be the crowning achievement of the SW, which frankly ain't that impressive


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> yes this seems to be the crowning achievement of the SW, which frankly ain't that impressive


No, their crowning achievement was to actually find the Spear of Russ after the Wolf King threw it at the moon in a drunken stupor.:laugh:


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


>


My eyes are burning.


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