# Does Space Marine Power Armor have a Machine-Spirit?



## Disciple of Chaos Undivided (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm curious whether or not power armor has a machine-spirit. Lexicanicum says only vehicles have them but I remember reading somewhere that lasguns and bolters have them (no idea where I read it). If weapons do then it makes sense that power armor does too, right? For "poo" and giggles I'm gonna add a poll and see what all you Heretics think


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Funny I could have sworn that I have read in some fluff that it does.


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## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

I think the best answer is that it is possible power armor can have the machine spirit, but I don't think they really do. Who knows what the Adeptus Mechanicus does to half the things they make.

Though I've heard everything from the machine spirit being a simple explanation for AI, to biological computer systems, to the Emperors psychic influences to even the Void Dragon buried in Mars. But with all the trouble of genetically engineering marines and training them I don't think it would be widespread, if at all if the machine spirit could just wander on its own much like Wrathguards/lords do.

Either way the machine spirit has kept my land raider fighting after taking a beating plenty of times. Mwa ha ha ha.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't think it does. Sure it has advanced systems, targetting, life support etc - but it doesn't run the user away from trouble or continue fighting if the occupant is killed or incapacitated. If it did, you'd have necrons.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

hmm.... Necron Marines...... with them mankind could conquer the galaxy!!!!!!


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## CaptianEzekyleAbbadon (Feb 6, 2009)

ok i've read that as well but the answer is actually no they dont by the way i play necrons


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

EVERY machine has a machine spirit. It is simply what the imperium believs. every machin is gifted a spirit by the deus machanica. sure you can actually speak and interface with ships and titans machine spirits (that is because it is actually a computer) and you cant with a toater (well, ok you can,it "pings" to let you know your toast is ready doesnt it) but it is dust belief, religion.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

I think there is a better way to get the real answer out of people. Take of a suit of terminator armor that is in the possession of a chapter other then its first. When ever that suit is painted the collars of its current chapter the wearer dies. Its now your turn to have the honor of wearing the Tactical dreadnought Armour. Would you want that suit in it original color to please it machine spirit? or would you say i don't believe in all that spay it up!? Power armour has very sophisticated computer capabilities but it wont walk on its own..... unless your a 1k Son. It really depends on where you draw the line. Some would at self locomotion. Other with more faith might look for the ability to for analysis and choice. If you would let the Suit stay in is original colors then i think you, in your heart of hearts, think that it dose have a spirit.


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## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I think there is a better way to get the real answer out of people. Take of a suit of terminator armor that is in the possession of a chapter other then its first. When ever that suit is painted the collars of its current chapter the wearer dies. Its now your turn to have the honor of wearing the Tactical dreadnought Armour. Would you want that suit in it original color to please it machine spirit? or would you say i don't believe in all that spay it up!? Power armour has very sophisticated computer capabilities but it wont walk on its own..... unless your a 1k Son. It really depends on where you draw the line. Some would at self locomotion. Other with more faith might look for the ability to for analysis and choice. If you would let the Suit stay in is original colors then i think you, in your heart of hearts, think that it dose have a spirit.


I remember that one. It was in that olde "Deathwing" book, wasn't it? It was an originally Ultramarine Terminator suit lent to the Blood Angel or the dark Angel, I don't remember well, and each time they tried to paint it to the chapter's colour, as you said, its werer died... Strange through...


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## Brother Mathias (Aug 5, 2009)

I'd have to agree Lord Lucius. Every machine has a "ghost in the machine", but some, like Land Raiders and Titans, have a spiffy thing that gives them a more obvious "Machine Spirit". No, Power armor won't wander around or talk to you, (unless you're Chaos) but it does have pride and a spirit that needs placating and honour. It's basicly superstition to give fearful people a reason to look after their tech. Or is it?


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I have read that they do in several novels (too lazy too quote) So i voted for yes after all it is a machine just because it is a peice of armour doesnt mean it hasnt got one.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Well now we're splitting hairs between the superstition of everything that's made by machine has a machine spirit vs. the AI in machines that are able to self-operate and make decisions.

By the first argument, everything has a machine spirit. Even the airbrush that paints the armour!

Guess it all comes down to the OPs intent with the question. Certainly according to the Mechanicus, power armour has both a machine spirit and a war spirit.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes, since the fluff on Techmarines mentions pretty clearly that they leave some of the Chapter's colors on to avoid offending the suit's Machine Spirit.


That's assuming you buy into the dogma of the Adeptus Mechanicus, of course.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

I don't trust anyone with something called a 'mechadendrite'


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

According to admech dogma, *every* machine has a spirit and must be prayed over and chanted to during maintenance. It's like shamanism. Your bow and arrow have a spirit, the elk you kill have a spirit, the river they drink from has a spirit, etc.

However, if you're talking about Land Raider-level "Onboard AI" machine spirit, then no. Only certain vehicles and advanced bits of tech have any kind of AI, anything capable of 'manifesting' and taking control or talking back.

so if you ask your average marine or admech priest they will tell you that of course PA has a machine spirit.
The mechanical can opener you used to open your Spaghetti-Os has a machine spirit.

But if you're wondering if your PA is going to have a conversation or take over abruptly then no, and neither is your can opener


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## Disciple of Chaos Undivided (Jun 3, 2009)

Cole Deschain said:


> Yes, since the fluff on Techmarines mentions pretty clearly that they leave some of the Chapter's colors on to avoid offending the suit's Machine Spirit.


See, thats what I'm talking about. If the PAs machine spirit is aware enough to be offended or if there are certain rituals that have to be performed to assuage the PAs honor then it has to be intelligent.



Galahad said:


> However, if you're talking about Land Raider-level "Onboard AI" machine spirit, then no. Only certain vehicles and advanced bits of tech have any kind of AI, anything capable of 'manifesting' and taking control or talking back.
> 
> so if you ask your average marine or admech priest they will tell you that of course PA has a machine spirit.
> The mechanical can opener you used to open your Spaghetti-Os has a machine spirit.
> ...


Thats a great point, my thought is that there are different levels of machine spirits, kind of like there are minor daemons and greater daemons. Say a battleship of the Imperial Navy being a higher level spirit than a Land Raider which in turn is a high level spirit than power armor or a boltgun. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not expecting a suit of PA to sit up and ask me what time it is, I'm just trying to make the claim that PA does have a machine spirit and that it is aware and intelligent.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

"The chapter insignia, normally located on the left shoulder, is moved to the right shoulder and is replaced by the deathwatch insignia. The left arm is painted silver to avoid angering the armour's machine spirit."
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Xenos

Yes the Space Marines Power Armor does have a Machine Spirit not sure about lasguns and bolters though never read about that, and I read a lot


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## Disciple of Chaos Undivided (Jun 3, 2009)

Chocobuncle said:


> Yes the Space Marines Power Armor does have a Machine Spirit not sure about lasguns and bolters though never read about that, and I read a lot


I read alot too and I think it was in the Uriel Ventris book "Killing Ground" where Pasanius leaves a stolen Iron Warriors bolter in a burning vehicle and said something about it being better to destroy it than risk it turning on you (paraphrasing). Them hinting about a machine spirit maybe? I wish I remembered what book it was from but I remember a guardsman cleaning and polishing his lasgun in order to placate its machine spirit. A Gaunts Ghost novel maybe.


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## necroman (Jun 13, 2008)

So what about Chaos space marines, how does that work out, are the suits daemonically possesse?d and with thousands suns beings rubrics does that mean they combined with them hmmmm... just food for thought


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

most chaos marines dont believe in machine spirits as the mechanicus wasnt religious back in the 30th melenium. so unless a wepon/radio/gameboy is possesed it is dust a weppon/radio/gameboy.
insedently you coud flip my answers on its head and say that no machine REALY has a spirit. and they cant take offence ,dust like a katana cant take offence, but samurais still believe that one will if it dosent taste blood befor being sheathed. It is dust religion


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## Disciple of Chaos Undivided (Jun 3, 2009)

necroman said:


> So what about Chaos space marines, how does that work out, are the suits daemonically possesse?d and with thousands suns beings rubrics does that mean they combined with them hmmmm... just food for thought


I've never read anything that suggested CSM armor was possessed but its plausible. If nothing else maybe the original machine spirits essence was warped into a daemonic presence. Of course thats all speculation and opinion

As for the CSMs not believing in machine spirit, well, just because someone doesnt believe in something doesnt mean it cant exist.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Eh, in a universe where people think you need to pray to your weapon while you reload... at the practice range?

I've always chalked the "Machine Spirit" up to the same sort of superstition that has me cursing at my car when it doesn't work properly.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Lord Lucius said:


> as the mechanicus wasnt religious back in the 30th melenium.


I actually think you'll find they were a religious cult back in the 30th millennium, that's why the Emperor posed as the Omnissiah and fulfilled a mechanicus prophesy (yes, created by him) with his arrival on Mars.

Just in case anyone doesn't actually know what a "machine spirit" in the general sense is, it's the gradual incoporation of ritual into the believed operation of an inanimate device.

Example: when I was a kid, my dad had a ritual for starting the lawn mower. Pump the fuel 3 times, wait for a few seconds, pump it another 3 times, open the choke and then pull the starting cord. This was then followed by swearing and then repeating the ritual until it worked.

NOw because we live in an enlightened time, we know that the only reason he had to do that was because it badly needed to be serviced. 

But if all the user manuals, engineering and mechanical understanding is eroded or lost (say over 40,000 years), the only way to keep the damn thing going would be to keep repeating the ritual and maybe elaborate on it over time. The only way I could know how to get it working is the bizarre ritual repeated by all of my ancestors.

Add to this a little bit of early catholocism (you pray to god the way we say, subject to change, but we wont actually give you a manual that tells you how) and you get the mechanicus, and a bunch of luddites who only know how to operate machinery based on ritual.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

For the record, lasguns do have machine spirits according to the armech, read the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and the Munitorium Manual for more details.

Here's the thing though. You have to define exactly WHAT you mean by machine spirit. Is it a real thing, like a magical daemon that possesses pieces of technology? Is it superstitious shorthand for an AI control system? Or is it a completely intangible, made-up thing that comes from imperial ignorance and superstition?

In-universe, *every* single piece of Human technology capable of breaking down is considered to have a machine spirit. It's a superstition. If your machine breaks it is because the machine spirit is angry. Just like back in the day if you got the plague or your house burnt down it was obviously because God was angry at you for reasons you couldn't fathom.

It doesn't mean that it's *true*

There is text that says you have to decorate your armor just so to avoid angering the machine spirit, but that doesn't mean that it is (in universe) actually true. It's just superstition. There's no evidence that power armor is actually capable of acting on its own, or that it has any sort of governing AI.

Ask any serious sailor and they'll tell you that changing a boat's name is major bad luck. The belief rises from this same sort of shamanism (whether current sailors realize it or not). It was believed that ships had spirits and that disrespecting the boat would anger it and make it sink. So to pay respect to your boat you maintained her, treated her nice, loved and respected her and she would treat you right in turn. In truth, there is no boat spirit. You could call your ship a motherfucker and flip it the bird every day, and so long as you keep up the maintenance, it's not going to spontaneously sink.

This is the *exact* same belief system that the admech espouses. When you clean and maintain your lasgun, you must chant the rites of maintenance (which are basically the instructions for how to perform the act, with extra groveling and praise worked in), anoint it with sacred lubricant (gun oil), etc. In reality, all you are doing is cleaning and maintaining a gun while chanting the instructions in dog latin. If your gun works perfectly then you pleased the machine spirit and it favors you with its use...or in reality, you just successfully maintained your weapon and it works because it works. But the ignorant soldier feels better because he doesn't understand how it actually works or what exactly he was doing by cleaning it. He just knows he said a prayer and it came true. his religion is affirmed and his weapon is clean.

Do imperials *believe* armor (and lasguns, and can openers) have machine spirits? Yes, yes they do.

Does that make it actually true? No, not really.

The only "true" machine spirit would be some sort of computer/AI control system like Land Raiders have. Even that isn't *actually* a spirit, it's just a computer that can take control, but it's at least something that is (in universe) real, and could potentially get angry and disobey (depending on how advanced it actually is. Probably not).

So I say objectively, that no, PA does not have a machine spirit. It's incapable of acting on its own. The official dogma is that it does have one, but that's why it's dogma. Ask the admech and they'll say your pencil sharpener has a machine spirit and that if you anger it it breaks the lead. Emptying out the shavings or taking it apart to sharpen it is a religious rite that must be performed properly or you will anger the pencil sharpener spirit...not because you put the blade in backwards.


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Galahad does have a true point

and I read the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer again and yea it says that, forgot about it


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Galahad said:


> For the record, lasguns do have machine spirits according to the armech, read the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and the Munitorium Manual for more details.
> 
> Here's the thing though. You have to define exactly WHAT you mean by machine spirit. Is it a real thing, like a magical daemon that possesses pieces of technology? Is it superstitious shorthand for an AI control system? Or is it a completely intangible, made-up thing that comes from imperial ignorance and superstition?
> 
> ...


BAM! Slam dunk, thread done.


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## Darktheos (May 9, 2008)

I do believe in the Ultramarine's novel vs the Nids it talks about leaving one shoulder unpainted on Death Watch to appease the Machine Spirit.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

aye. religion, as galahad said


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

This portion concerns the CSM PA. In the book Storm of Iron, a captured IG was forced to clean and maintain a suit of CSM armor. Over time the suit spoke to that captured IG.
Demonic possession? Corrupted Machine Spirit?
Either way that IG eventuall donned that suit of armor and "became" a CSM.

In terms of self aware "machine spirit" yes
In terms of machine spirit that could physically effect things? nope

Then again, it might have simply been an outside influence on that incident.


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## Brother Mathias (Aug 5, 2009)

According to the old marine's codex, "a Machine Spirit is a combination of organic and mechanical components that helps to control a tank's movement and weapon systems." To me, this sounds like there's someone's brain in there somewhere, a little like in one of the Cain novels, when the gun turrets on his aircraft have amputee servitors installed to do the shooting.

'coz the easiest way to make AI is to stick a brain in the computer. :biggrin:


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## Abbo (May 30, 2008)

Brother Mathias said:


> 'coz the easiest way to make AI is to stick a brain in the computer. :biggrin:


No, it's because computer based AI's nearly wiped out the human race in the dark age of technology, so they are outlawed.


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