# Power Gamers are they Myth or Fact?



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

So after reading the thread about Gaming and Hobby players it got me to think. 
Are there really power gamers or are they people that are just really tough opponents. It wasn't to long ago that just about anything got you labeled as "cheesy" now certain things get you labeled a power gamer.

What do you think is a power gamer? Are they the scum of the earth or just tough opponents that make you try hard and use tactics and skill to beat them?


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

well I don't think a powergamer is someone that uses a competitive list. I think it;s more someone who goes to a LGS or tournament or any game with the attitude " I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win" 
Like I run fairly competitive lists but I'd joke around the whole time, makign the game a much more relaxed environment and making it more enjoyable(Playing porn music when a tanks rear armour get's penetrated etc) 


A term I haven't seen a while actually is beardy.... Haven't seen that since 5th came round.....


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

Personally, I've always considered a "power gamer" someone who is constantly playing. Could almost consider them addicted. Way back when, when my (then) group played Mordheim, we were "power gamers". We'd play all day saturday and even some sundays. Game after game after game. We'd stop for a burger king run, bring the food back, and play as we ate. Or, better yet, we'd order pizza so we didnt have to stop! lol. Was alot of fun, hope that when I start playing 40k (still just painting and collecting atm) that I find a group as fun as they were.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

power gamers do exist, and they are nothing more than scum, most competitive players are usually bad enough, having to listen to them preach the gospel of every codex being useless, criticizing your lists to the point you may as well just become there twin they make so many changes to it.

but power gamers, or WAAC gamers (usually the same people) I cannot stand at all, ignorant, usually quite dumb, cheating little gits, who only argue over stupid rules, and stretch every rule to the limits to gain even the slightest advantage over someone else.

they are people you try to avoid, but never fully can, and there all you practically bump into these days inside GW's, picking on the new kids to inflate there ego, so they can gloat over how amazing they are over on 40k forums.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I tend to consider myself a competitive gamer and I have no problem with power gamers if they follow the rules. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win, I hate to lose. Now what I do have a problem are ass holes.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

gen.ahab said:


> I have no problem with power gamers if they follow the rules.


if they follow the rules, then there not really power gamers, not following the rules is sort of the point of being a power gamer


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## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

I have one of these Power Gamers at my LFHS. At least I classify him as a Power gamer, because he stretches all of the rules to his advantage always. Not to mention makes lists that are the most over powered lists possible.

The most recent game I had with this guy, he said he made up a 'fun' list with his guard with lots of infantry and very little armor. Since he said fun list I decided to make a fun list (foots logging eldar as I thought mech eldar would just be too strong as a fun list) as well. Turns out his fun lists armor was all Valkrys, Baskilists and a Manticore. And he stretched the rules so much that by turn 2 I was nearly wiped off the board and the whole time he was just smiling stupidly saying "wow my fun list is kicking your ass and you are doing this and this wrong"... after the game, I just wanted to stomp him for being such an ass hole.

That is what makes a power gamer in my eyes, some one who plays really competivietly, but is also a huge ass hole / duesh bag in the process.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> if they follow the rules, then there not really power gamers, not following the rules is sort of the point of being a power gamer


*People who don't follow the rules are cheaters*. 

I always thought that power gamers were people who picked the best army they could and used every advantage _within_ the rules to win, and this was their only objective.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ItsPug said:


> *People who don't follow the rules are cheaters*.
> 
> I always thought that power gamers were people who picked the best army they could and used every advantage _within_ the rules to win, and this was their only objective.


thats a competitive gamer, at least they do follow the rules, power gamers don't follow the rules and make a competitive list harder to beat because of them not following the rules, or stretching them to a stupid point, or interpreting them to gain there own advantage, while the general consensus is opposite to theres (which in my book is basically cheating)

if someone doesn't follow the rules in a blindingly obvious manner and usually has a shitty 2 dimensional army (like a gunline in fantasy) thats a cheater


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Stretching is not breaking. Power gamers and cheaters are different things. A competitive gamer is like a power gamer in that they attempt to be as powerful as possible but they don't stretch the rules.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

gen.ahab said:


> Stretching is not breaking. Power gamers and cheaters are different things. A competitive gamer is like a power gamer in that they attempt to be as powerful as possible but they don't stretch the rules.


stretching IS basically breaking, sure its not full on breaking, but you've gotten to that point and it makes you no better a person no matter the desperate technicalities, if you can only win by stretching a rule to its limit to further suck the fun from the game, and your opponents will to live, you've cheated.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

ItsPug said:


> *People who don't follow the rules are cheaters*.
> 
> I always thought that power gamers were people who picked the best army they could and used every advantage _within_ the rules to win, and this was their only objective.


This! well in my area anyway.




Stella Cadente said:


> thats a competitive gamer, at least they do follow the rules, power gamers don't follow the rules and make a competitive list harder to beat because of them not following the rules, or stretching them to a stupid point, or interpreting them to gain there own advantage, while the general consensus is opposite to theres (which in my book is basically cheating)


This to me is a WAAC - type of gamer, not a competitive/powergamer...totally different animal.


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## genesis108 (Jul 29, 2009)

Power gamers do exist..and they are notorious for trying to rule lawyer and preach why they are right and leave you standing there with your jaw on the floor looking at them like "Are you seriously that dumb..." These people usually are the ones that are very strict RAW..as long as the rule doesn't prevent them from doing something they want..at which point they become very flagrant and confused RAI..they will sit there and say "Well, GW meant this because of this and if you look at the wording, it's clear because..I said so." Yeah..those douches are the ones you want to avoid because they are trying to twist rules to their advantage..and are classic examples of Power Gamers.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> stretching IS basically breaking, sure its not full on breaking, but you've gotten to that point and it makes you no better a person no matter the desperate technicalities, if you can only win by stretching a rule to its limit to further suck the fun from the game, and your opponents will to live, you've cheated.


No it isn't. It's going against RAI but not AW.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Don_Keyballs said:


> I have one of these Power Gamers at my LFHS. At least I classify him as a Power gamer, because he stretches all of the rules to his advantage always. Not to mention makes lists that are the most over powered lists possible.
> 
> The most recent game I had with this guy, he said he made up a 'fun' list with his guard with lots of infantry and very little armor. Since he said fun list I decided to make a fun list (foots logging eldar as I thought mech eldar would just be too strong as a fun list) as well. Turns out his fun lists armor was all Valkrys, Baskilists and a Manticore. And he stretched the rules so much that by turn 2 I was nearly wiped off the board and the whole time he was just smiling stupidly saying "wow my fun list is kicking your ass and you are doing this and this wrong"... after the game, I just wanted to stomp him for being such an ass hole.
> 
> That is what makes a power gamer in my eyes, some one who plays really competivietly, but is also a huge ass hole / duesh bag in the process.


That would completely piss me off... what a tool...

I also don't like the guys who are "generous" in thier movement.... Especially if it's near the end of the game and how far you move would really count... Would it kill you to do it right. Or the guys who, when thier tank blows up... spread thier guys over a 10" footprint. I'm pretty OK with calling somebody on thier blatent douchbaggery, but it's the minor stuff that grates on my nerves.... especially when I don't call them on it for fear of being seen as a rules lawyer... Also, I hate it when people don't know thier codex. I trust you to know what the heck your stuff does.. and if you tell me your Tyranid beasty has a 2+ invo... I'm inclined to believe you... but to be that ignorant of your dex is pretty much cheating in my book.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

gen.ahab said:


> No it isn't. It's going against RAI but not AW.


no its stretching the RAW to fully take advantage over a rule, not just in the normal way, but taking it waaay too far, so it is breaking them.

you can't turn around to some kid who just had a power gaming wanker completely table him in 2 turns and think saying "well it was RAW" would help in any way, there gonna continue to think "that asshole cheated, he stretched so and so rule so far it was no longer on the page of the rulebook, it was stretched outside and down the M54"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Stretching is still not breaking. Now if you go and say that a Wolf claw let's me reroll either my to hit or to wound rolls it means all my units can because of one claw then that is breaking. If you say I have a lightning claw and it says reroll all failed to hits it let's me reroll my to hits from my power fist that happens to be on the same model that is stretching.... But not breaking. It was poor wording on the part of GW.


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## genesis108 (Jul 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Stretching is still not breaking. Now if you go and say that a Wolf claw let's me reroll either my to hit or to wound rolls it means all my units can because of one claw then that is breaking. If you say I have a lightning claw and it says reroll all failed to hits it let's me reroll my to hits from my power fist that happens to be on the same model that is stretching.... But not breaking. It was poor wording on the part of GW.


No, that is still breaking, because you are not using the LC. If you are not using a weapon to opt to use another weapon, as it says in the BRB, the rules do not carry over. It is one or the other, not both. So that IS breaking, as it is a direct violation of what is written.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

correct. special and normal weapons have different rules. i consider myself a power gamer. I dont stretch the rules because I dont need to. they are rules. unbreakable. I have the confidence to stop people if they try it on. I know the rules and where to find them. I like to think i am fun to play with as i hate games where one or the other are moping around and not enjoying it. my lists are not net lists. they dont work after about 2 weeks before counters are thought of. I play 1 list for a very long time and work out how to play it to the best of its ability. to me gamers are 1 of 3. fluffy player - just having fun with no aspirations to winning events. just plays with his friends or whatever. Competitive player/power game. takes nasty lists, knows rules, is fun to play. plays hard and fast and doesnt act like a prat.
Cheater - someone who stretches rules, breaks rules. is an idiot to play with, questioning everything and being a bad sport. lacks respect for the game and other peoples feelings. is generally a massive man sized reason to not play.

luckily i have only played about 3 of these type of players. they all lost btw because without the 'tricks' they are decidedly average. It might just be the state of play in the US compared to the UK, we are much better sports than most of the usa guys and dont fall for any of this above the table BS.


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## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

CLT40k said:


> That would completely piss me off... what a tool...
> 
> I also don't like the guys who are "generous" in thier movement.... Especially if it's near the end of the game and how far you move would really count... Would it kill you to do it right. Or the guys who, when thier tank blows up... spread thier guys over a 10" footprint. I'm pretty OK with calling somebody on thier blatent douchbaggery, but it's the minor stuff that grates on my nerves.... especially when I don't call them on it for fear of being seen as a rules lawyer... Also, I hate it when people don't know thier codex. I trust you to know what the heck your stuff does.. and if you tell me your Tyranid beasty has a 2+ invo... I'm inclined to believe you... but to be that ignorant of your dex is pretty much cheating in my book.


I HATE THAT THE MOST.... when people are 'generous' in their movement. I'm not much of a stickler... because when I move my units, I move the front of the squad the maximum distance and then just kinda pile the rest in behind, but still intially, the front of the squad is at the maximum, but I've seen people move the front just a 1/2" to 1" further and the put units that were behind the front of teh squad to the front. I call it out when its really noticable, but then they look back at you like you are a rule nazi... such a pain in the ass.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

genesis108 said:


> No, that is still breaking, because you are not using the LC. If you are not using a weapon to opt to use another weapon, as it says in the BRB, the rules do not carry over. It is one or the other, not both. So that IS breaking, as it is a direct violation of what is written.


Well that would depend entirely upon how its written. If it says any attacks then there would be s small ledge for a jackass to grab a hold of but no one would allow it. Its just an example of how someone could try and stretch a rule that would have some grounds for it.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

A power gamer is a player who simply does whatever he can to maximize his chances of winning a game _within_ the rules of the game. That is what power gaming has been in every single type of game out there, from table tops to MMO's. 

The key thing there is they act within the rules set forth in the BGB and all FAQ's posted. They check judgements passed at tourny's for settling RAW vs RAI. If you're playing them they most likly have a binder with all the FAQ's printed to make a referance.

The sad thing is many people associate "Power Gaming" with blatent and utter duchebaggery (thanks CLT40k I like that term). This is not the case. Power Gaming is an approach one takes to the game, not to other players. You could play a guy who makes a "fluffy" list that has some really good choices that he may explain with his own homebrew fluff, but he could have made those choices based on efficent point use and his own playstlye. Meanwhile you could play a kid who just copy and pastes a list from 'Ard Boyz that totally sucks at the game itself, and he'll be wondering why he lost.

MJAYC50, from his own description sounds like an actual Power Gamer. Someone who knows the rules inside and out and doesn't stand for BS that he knows is untrue. For all of you guys that let people stretch the rules to the point of sheer stupidity (and the rules were ment to be stretched, all table top rules are) then its your own fault for having a crappy time playing the game.


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## AngryCanadian (Feb 1, 2010)

well i guess im a power gamer then 

as i dont like to argue about the Deff-Rolla's effectiveness against vehicles i printed out the FAQ and bring it with me.

You know not having the Faqs or knowing them for your own army could be considered cheating, as they are corrections/elaborations to your codex

how else whould i know if a Wierdboy in a vehicle ends up DS'ing himself across the table if the vehicle goes or just him and the unit inside


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Don't most people bring the FAQ with them for their army? I have a binder with all the FAQ from each army.... I know that's a bit much but shouldn't you have your dexes FAQ with you? Lol


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

yea, Joe smoe from down the road who plays in his mums basement with his mate for fun doesnt need an faq, maybe he doesnt even know it exists. for him it doesnt matter. Hell you dont have to use the FAQ - just everyone who plays for more than the cinematic NEEDS it to make it fair and transparent. Thats what faq's are all about. Making the playing field level. By that i mean that everyone knows what each unit is capable of so there are no suprises in the game that effect the out come, as you didnt know what unit A could do. Thats why you need to read every codex, read every FAQ, hell, even proxy some models and play with a new army. try to figure out some cool tricks with new things as homework for when you get to play someone who has invested time and money into the new book. That gets those suprise wins out the way and sends them back to the game store asking for a refund!


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

There are different definitions of a power gamer.

- A person that copy/pastes powerful lists.
- A person that wants to WAAC.
- A person that is unsportsmanlike.
- A person that knows the rules like the back of their hand.
- A person that tries to exploit rules to their advantage.
- A person that simply builds effective lists.
- A person that plays skillfully.

I do NOT copy/paste lists.
I do NOT want to WAAC. It doesn't bother me if i lose.
I always get the highest sportsmanship scores at tournaments.
I DO know the rules like the back of my hand.
I do NOT try to exploit rules to my advantage.
I DO build effective lists.
I DO play skillfully.

My group of regular players consider me a power gamer, but only because i build effective lists and play skillfully, which results in me winning 90% of my games.

However, it does not bother me if i win or lose. Like everyone, i play to win, but if my opponent beats me i enjoy the challenge and congratulate them on a good game and compliment their skill.

Players are happy to play against me because i make the game a fun experience. I compliment them on certain tactics they use, and always show enthusiasm for the opponent to win.
For example, if they need a 5 or 6 to blow up MY vehicle, i will always say "Come on! 5 or a 6!:biggrin:", then say "Nice work!:good:" when they get it.

If we have a new player at the club, i will play with less skill and go easy on them, and make it as close as possible. I take no pride in beating a new player.
A common phrase we use at our club is "Annihilating a newbie is like bashing up a cripple kid and bragging about it".



So yes, i consider myself a power gamer, but ONLY because i build effective lists and play them skillfully.
As far as all of the other negative definitions listed above, none of them describe me.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Generally I think of power gamers as the guys who pick up a new army everytime a new codex comes out just so they can win with it, the guys who only show up to tournaments and don't give two cents about the condition of the store when they leave, bring competitive and leaf blower lists against fun-lists, stretching rules that have an obvious point with the "but it don't said exactly that, durdur" and/or the that whines when you narrowly beat his army out of pure luck.

Some of these are more universal and some are focused on our specific store (cleanliness and caring about the space as the owner is not fond of miniatures and has threatened to throw our stuff out if we leave it a mess.)


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

Hmm..well my interpretation of power gamer was someone who abused the build of a FOC soley to win. However I have met the "Win at all cost" type of power gamer. I am willing to play anybody who stays within the rules, that said, I do not really consider 2 5 man tac combat squads and a basic capt and all other unit slots maxed out a "Fluffy" army but if that is what shows up I am gonna do my best to pound it on the table. Power gamer and Cheesey gamer are probably interchangeable terms, depentant on your era of 40K. Beardy well that is another type...I may be considered beardy. I like to play using the models I like from my collection, not because of an ability or special rule but because in RT and 2ed they were loved. I have old models that were my heros and units that were special because of when I got them and the time I put into them before FOC's and such. I dunno , I guess there are power gamers out there in it only for the win. I like to win, oh yes, but I like playing so much more. I have spent 20 years in this hobby and I want to use the minitures I have painted and assembled reguardless of win/loss ratio. I think I have drifted off topic so I will sign off for now..:victory:


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I just find power gamers as people that just suck the life out of the game. They bring a competitive army and don't let their opponent know they want a competitive game. This way they steam roll their opponents laughing all the time how great they are. I don't mind competitive players as long as I know that they want a competitive game.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

morfangdakka said:


> I just find power gamers as people that just suck the life out of the game. They bring a competitive army and don't let their opponent know they want a competitive game. This way they steam roll their opponents laughing all the time how great they are. I don't mind competitive players as long as I know that they want a competitive game.


Bring some rope and you won't get raped. It's not the competitive gamers problem you weren't ready with your A game. Maybe it's just me but if I bring a fluffy list and he brings an ass grinder I am not going to blame him because it tables me.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I always thought a power gamer was pretty much an WAAC gamer. You could use beardy or cheesy as well, but reading this different people think different things. 

Stretching the rules or interpreting them to make you army choice better is really just another sort of cheating and is really the only thing I dislike about some gamers. Then again I am a fairly relaxed gamer (not a fluff gamer). I know pretty much most of the rules, but play just to enjoy myself and take units I enjoy. I do tweak my list to try and make it have a chance of winning but anybody who has played me will know its always a hit or miss affair.

SO power gamers do exist, and that is not always a bad thing.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

It's obvious to me after reading some Posts on here that the powergamers in my area are of a decent caliber to what some of you face, with the majority of the Powergamer descriptions been move indicative of the WAAC players. They certainly don't 'suck the life out of the game'...far from it.

Lucky me!


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

@humakt, but i thought you was waac palyer m8...................lol only j/king.
TBH there are diferent types of powergamer from the waac types that will do anything to win (includeing stratching/bending/bracking the rules) to the ones that will have the most powerfull/cheesey/beady lists that they field and still keep in the rules, and those are a bit of both but will also use intimidation scare tactics (mainly against younger/new players).
i know a couple of tourny players that are a form of powergamer that they will only field there most powerfull tourny list at all times, even when asked to build fun friendly list's for a campainge/pick up games and then dont tell there opponent that there useing said tourny list.
now i dont mind players useing a tourny list if there getting ready for a tourny and are testing tweaking there list, but even when theres no tournys on they always use em, and then complaine if they have an easy win against someone useing a fun, non competeive or fluffy list


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

to me a power gammer is anyone whos prime reason for playing any game isn't "having fun". Unfortuntly some of those people do exist, but the ones i hate are what i love to call "Rule Miners". They will bned or outright lie about rules and hope you don't notice. for exampe they will take a relitave small thing in your army or these and make it seem worse or better than it is. I also call these people Douche Bags.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

I like bringing fluffly lists to a cheesefest. Its a no lose situation. 50 % of the time i can win anyway. ;-)


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I am a "powergamer", by the definitions of one here- I know the necron codex by heart and can rattle off rules and point costs, and I always play to win. However, I'm not an asshat about it. I know I'll lose some and I don't try to cheat. In the 40+ games I've had I've lost a good share, possibly more than half, but I don't care. I jsut want to have fun, but knowign what you're doing makes it more fun because you don't have to fetch a rule book every ten minutes and you can just play your game. Rule conflicts pop up every now and then, such as fearless psykers too close to my Pariahs- What wins, Psychic Abomination or Fearless? But these conflicts don't have to be hostile, just look at the rules and make an intelligent decision. If you can't reach a conclusion, do a rolloff. Then go back to your game. Simple.

The point is, a powergamer is more a person who does nothing but play, and tries to win, not just a person who intimately knows what they are doing. Or maybe they are. Everyone has a different definition of what a powergamer is.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Oh they most certainly exist. Here are some of the signs that someone you know is a power gamer:

1. They get into loud arguments about the rules, instead of looking up the answers in the rulebook/codexes.

2. They throw tantrums.

3. They misinterpret the rules a lot, and always in their favor.

4. They use phrases like RAW or RAI.

5. They text you at random times to ask your opinions on certain units. No 'hello' or 'how's it going'. No, just 'are meganobz worth it?'

6. They don't allow any take backs, but fully expect to be given as many take backs as they like.

7. They put their wins/losses in their signature. 

8. They lie about their wins/losses in their signature.

9. They cheat, even in casual games.

10. They complain on warhammer forums (uh oh...)


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## Muffinman (Aug 31, 2009)

> 7. They put their wins/losses in their signature


Hey I used to put my win/loss in my sig but I didnt do it to prove how great i am, hell, when i had it in my sig it was pretty pathetic, i think it was around 7 wins in total out of around 40 games. I do agree with the fact that people who lie about their win/losses in their sig, there should be no reason you have to lie about it on an online forum to people who live halfway across the world.


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## Epatus (May 17, 2009)

From my experience a few definitions:

Competitive Player: A player who has built an army to win, but can accept when it loses. This army may even have a loose theme to it.

WAAC('er): Win At All Costs player, these deviants should be avoid... well, at all costs! These people will do anything to win. This means anything, examples include: picking up extra dice to roll, inflating movement distances, moving models when your back is turned, etc. These people will do literally anything to ensure that they win. There is such a creature as a GREATER WAAC('er). They can be found in their natural habitat of Games Workshop stores playing children how have only played less than 10 games, and then proceed to devour and baffle them with arguements to get their own way.

Powergamer: Over the years the definition of this has become more loose. Previously a power gamer used to be a player who took the hardest list possible (e.g. Iron cheese, flying circus and now leaf blower, etc.). The problem is that a higher percentage of players are now taking these lists. This could be due to explosion of internet forums where lists are disected and put back together to be stronger until a peak is reached, which is then swiftly copied and pasted across the internet AKA The Net List. A powergamer lies between a competitive player and a WAAC'er. They are significantly more competitive than a competitive player but don't resort to the same lengths that a WAAC'er will to win.

All of these definitions of players definatley exist.


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