# Lorgar was told by the Emperor to follow chaos, and start the heresy.



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

After reading scion of the storm, along with a few other books regarding Horus rising, it has come to my understanding that the Emperor trusted Lorgar far more then prior presented. I believe the Emperor told Lorgar about chaos, rather that their existed "other gods", and that he asked Lorgar to go learn about them and to worship them. To put it simply the Emperor asked Lorgar to become his "Judas Iscariot", knowing full well what would happen to Lorgar, and his brothers that would also follow chaos.

Furthermore I believe the Emperor did this, as well as reveal to Lorgar that this was in order for the Emperor to achieve apotheosis. Lorgar out of loyalty faith, and devotion in the Emperor followed his commands and began orchestrating the heresy. 

The Emperor planned for half his sons to be "Sacrificed to chaos", he planned to be mortally wounded and physically crippled. This was all done with the goal of reaching apotheosis, and of all the primarchs he trusted Lorgar with the task of playing one of the most critical roles, that of the "Devil/Judas".

If you think about it, the nine primarchs that turned to chaos were in fact some of the most loyal and perhaps "too" loyal. Lorgar was devoted beyond reason to the Emperor, even willing to turn against all mankind/his brothers to carry out his father's will. Curze was extremely loyal to the Emperor and his vision, willing to commit atrocities and horrors in order to facilitate his father's vision. Magnus sought to understand chaos and the ether in order to assist mankind, as well as to be like his father. Alpharius was willing to abandon all morals, ethics and honor in order to take up the role the one who works in the shadows. Perturbo was extremely loyal as well, willing to separate his legion even though it pained him in order to please his father. 

It also brings up the notion that the Emperor pre-planned every event, he planned for Angron to be consumed and sacrificed to Khorne. Thus why he allowed Angron's followers to perish, why he treated him so coldly and never bonded with him unlike all other primarchs he found. It was to create the state of mind that would consume Angron with his legion, to destroy the aspect of martial honor that glued Angron together. 

Ultimately I believe the Emperor told Lorgar that the heresy, the sacrificing of his brethren would allow him (the Emperor) to ascend to his true godhood. He likely told Lorgar that he was divine but ultimately bound by flesh, and that through these sacrifices he would ascend to infinite potential and display his true divinity.

To put it simply, all of the "great thinkers", philosophers, those who were not purely soldiers became sacrificed to chaos. As if all those who had the potential to see the Emperor's true goal of becoming a god, were sacrificed.

While all those ruled by martial perception remained loyal, due to their blindness at what the Emperor was truly striving for.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Was wondering when another one of these threads would pop up..... Snorting that good ol' warp dust again, I see.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Interesting ideas there. I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on it but some very left field ideas.

I like your ideas about the Primarchs you named (other than Lorgar who I don't agree with your ideas there). I think your summary of Magnus, Alpharius and Perturabo is quite accurate. They all thought to one degree or another that the end justified the means.

I also liked your conclusion on Angron too. It's a pretty good theory why the Emperor did what he did to Angron although I don't think the Emperor planned for him to be consumed by Khorne per se but consumed by his own madness. I think the Emperor didn't care what happened to Angron which is why he didn't take any of Angron's followers from Nuceria. (The discussion on this between Angron and Lorgar is one of the few bits I did enjoy from Betrayer).

Nice description of Lorgar and the Word Bearers as philosophers too. If any of the Legions could be described as such it would be the WBs and also the TS.

This is just my opinion but your thoughts on the Emperor achieving apostheosis (Spelling??) intrigue me. I don't agree that the Emperor was planning to sacrifice his sons but it's possible he was planning to increase his own powers in some way to try to protect humanity from the chaos gods. I wonder if there is a link between this and the source of the Imperial Saints powers which we all discussed recently. We don't have any evidence of this of course but it's a very interesting theory.

All in all, while there are some things I don't agree with, I do like some of your theories on this.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The concept that the traitor primarchs were the most loyal genuinely amuses me. I believe that there's a truth to this that makes their downfall extraordinarly amusing to the Chaos Gods.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

zerachiel76 said:


> Interesting ideas there. I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on it but some very left field ideas.
> 
> I like your ideas about the Primarchs you named (other than Lorgar who I don't agree with your ideas there). I think your summary of Magnus, Alpharius and Perturabo is quite accurate. They all thought to one degree or another that the end justified the means.
> 
> ...


Don't encourage him.

First off why would the emperor plan on becoming a corpse sitting on a throne?
Secondly why would he want to have his imperium die a death that lasts 10K years?
Thirdly by his logic everything the emperor did was total BS. He was trying to eliminate religion by telling his son to worship chaos is basically saying Ignore everything I have ever done in my existance.
If he wanted religion he would have allowed lorgar to continue worshiping him as a god.
Fourth have we forgotten about **** bestiality wolves so fast?
Fifth Source or GTFO.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> Don't encourage him.
> 
> First off why would the emperor plan on becoming a corpse sitting on a throne? The Big E was tired of all of it.
> 
> ...


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

You need to spend more points in your logic stat, scscofield.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I put as much effort into that post as the one I quoted.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

For the record I am basing most of these thoughts on

1. Scion of the storm
2. First Heretic
3. Betrayer

As well as a few other books that tie directly in with the Emperor musing on his children, as well as the heresy itself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't agree with you _Lux_. Beyond conjecture, most lore directly points to the Emperor being completely unaware of the the Heresy.

However, your theory is plausible. I would like to know more about what parts of _Scions of the Storm_, _Betrayer_ and _The First Heretic_ you're referring to though.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't agree with you _Lux_. Beyond conjecture, most lore directly points to the Emperor being completely unaware of the the Heresy.
> 
> However, your theory is plausible. I would like to know more about what parts of _Scions of the Storm_, _Betrayer_ and _The First Heretic_ you're referring to though.


Ok I'll bite,

why do you think it's plausible? I fail to see how a war that cost the imperium technology understanding, the primarchs and most of what the emperor strived to create could be part of his plan.


scscofield said:


> I put as much effort into that post as the one I quoted.


A lux thread isn't worth much effort.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Then don't post or respond to it Reaper.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Then don't post or respond to it Reaper.


This is what I have feared the mad god/dess has enthralled the mind of a **** sapian.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

Well, allow me to retort.



scscofield said:


> First off why would the emperor plan on becoming a corpse sitting on a throne? The Big E was tired of all of it.


Yep. The grand leader of mankind who waited thousands of years for the most opportune moment to conquer everything, having nearly completed his life long vision *gets bored with it.*



> Secondly why would he want to have his imperium die a death that lasts 10K years? Who says his plan isn't done.


Ok what exactly do you mean here? Do you mean that his plan is still ongoing or that it is already done?? Either way, that means exactly nothing. We can still easily deduce that doing everything in your power to have the imperium rise to power over the galaxy, only so that you can ignore when chaos decimates it resulting in your own demise and then waiting for an outcome ten thousand years later is not in any way plausible. That the emperor would be trying to help chaos with this is even more absurd.





> Thirdly by his logic everything the emperor did was total BS. He was trying to eliminate religion by telling his son to worship chaos is basically saying Ignore everything I have ever done in my existance. Maybe this was a long term plan to increase Chaos.


The Emperor? Planning to aid chaos? Do I REALLY need to explain how completely wrong this is? If the Emperor really planned the heresy it would be for some underlying catch for it to resolve in away favourable to the imperium, which no one can illustrate it was in any way.



> If he wanted religion he would have allowed lorgar to continue worshiping him as a god.
> Fourth have we forgotten about **** bestiality wolves so fast?
> 
> Since he does not mention any of that in this thread I fail to see your point and this could be construed as a personal attack if you continue to harp on it.


Doesn't mean that it can't be used to illustrate Lux's sketchy position. He _was_ being an ass about it however.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Don't encourage him.
> 
> First off why would the emperor plan on becoming a corpse sitting on a throne?
> Secondly why would he want to have his imperium die a death that lasts 10K years?
> ...


Hi Reaper,

Thanks for your comments but why the aggression towards my post? I'm sure we can all have an adult debate without "having a go". I did say I don't agree with her (I thought Lux was a her but I could be wrong??) theory on Lorgar (which kind of answers your questions) but I found her ideas on the other Primarchs interesting and thought provoking.

Regarding "don't encourage him", since I believe in free speech it would be hypocritical of me not to encourage it. I also tried to critically examine all the points raised and saw some ideas which interested me.

Regarding the Emperor looking to achieve apostheosis this was just my thoughts and opinion. I'm not claiming them to be fact so I don't need to provide a source for them. This thought follows on from my "Where Do Imperial Saints Get Their Powers From" thread a few weeks ago.

I thought the Emperor was and still is trying to protect Humanity from Chaos so therefore it makes sense for the Emperor to have some sort of plan to increase his own powers to achieve this. There isn't any fluff to support this, it just makes logical sense to me.

Where I was going was to ask the question "Do the Imperial Saints have some sort of part to play in this plan". I don't know is my own answer.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Thing is what would have happened if the Crusade had won and Chaos never happened. You would have had how many thousands of superhuman killing machines sitting around without a purpose. The emp sacrificing himself and allowing Chaos to happen gave a continued purpose to the massive war based society he had created.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Though humanity is slowly losing. Beset on all sides. Losing knowledge and technology. Abbaddon breaking the imperiums hold on the cadian gate. Which would be more preferable? Besides, I recall sigismund telling Loken that the astartes would not be without purpose after the galaxy was conquered. After all, who would be the constant protectors of the newly united galaxy? Who would be the go to armies to take care of threats within and without? The astartes would have still had a purpose. So I ask again. Which is more preferable?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

From the standpoint of control and government, the chaos option.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

NetherMessenger said:


> Yep. The grand leader of mankind who waited thousands of years for the most opportune moment to conquer everything, having nearly completed his life long vision *gets bored with it.*


You would be bored too if you had to walk around in ginormous armor that you can't turn your head in or benefit from peripheral vision of any sort, and if you had to deal with 18+ gargantuan manchildren in positions of authority and a movement trying to deify you when there's science to be done on a daily basis. Like Master of Orion 3, it just stops being fun at that point.

Mind you, I'm not sure that "Fuck this, I'm gonna go take a 10,000-year shit on my new Golden Toilet" is the appropriate response.

...I'll be back when I have something worthwhile to contribute.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Ok I'll bite,
> 
> why do you think it's plausible? I fail to see how a war that cost the imperium technology understanding, the primarchs and most of what the emperor strived to create could be part of his plan.
> 
> A lux thread isn't worth much effort.


If there was much more at stake and the Emperor's achievement of godhood was deemed more important than all that?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Thing is what would have happened if the Crusade had won and Chaos never happened. You would have had how many thousands of superhuman killing machines sitting around without a purpose. The emp sacrificing himself and allowing Chaos to happen gave a continued purpose to the massive war based society he had created.


Soo he what threw away all his plans to give his grandsons something to play with, I know he wasn't that kind of parent and I doubt he was that kind of grandparent.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Did he throw it away though? The guy had the power to wipe Horus from existence, and this is after he was pretty much beaten to death. Why let it even get that far if it wasn't by choice.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Did he throw it away though? The guy had the power to wipe Horus from existence, and this is after he was pretty much beaten to death. Why let it even get that far if it wasn't by choice.


"At seeing the body of Sanguines did the emperor realize that Horus was truly lost to chaos." Source EVERYWHERE

The Emp thought he could bring Horus back from the brink.

Why didn't he confront Horus before he got to Terra?
Because he was eye deep in demons.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Did he throw it away though? The guy had the power to wipe Horus from existence, and this is after he was pretty much beaten to death. Why let it even get that far if it wasn't by choice.


Last time I checked it was because he was using his power to keep magnus's screw up in check. malachador has to sacrifice himself to give the emperor the time to bring horus down. If he's planning on ascending to god hood he's doing it a strange way.


zerachiel76 said:


> Hi Reaper,
> 
> Thanks for your comments but why the aggression towards my post? I'm sure we can all have an adult debate without "having a go". I did say I don't agree with her (I thought Lux was a her but I could be wrong??) theory on Lorgar (which kind of answers your questions) but I found her ideas on the other Primarchs interesting and thought provoking.
> 
> ...


I meant no hostility. I just didn't feel like bringing up those points in paragraph form.
If lux wants to make a thread I don't really care. All I want is sources. As in page numbers quotes or something.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

This whole ‘The Emperor planned the Heresy’ theory has in my opinion always been a hideous load of crap. I’m hoping that ‘The Master of Mankind will finally put this rubbish to bed. If it were true (and I don’t believe for a minute that this is the route they are going to take) it would ruin the setting completely for me.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

In a sense, the destruction of the legions and primarchs was inevitable in my opinion. With the end of the Crusade I believe the individual beliefs and cultures of the Imperium would have put it in civil war. Its not so much that the Emperor decided that sitting on a golden throne for 10,000 years was a better alternative, but it's improbable that the Emperor really didn't see a conflict in the future.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> In a sense, the destruction of the legions and primarchs was inevitable in my opinion. With the end of the Crusade I believe the individual beliefs and cultures of the Imperium would have put it in civil war. Its not so much that the Emperor decided that sitting on a golden throne for 10,000 years was a better alternative, but it's improbable that the Emperor really didn't see a conflict in the future.


The purpose of the legions would have moved to a more policing role, opinion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

locustgate said:


> The purpose of the legions would have moved to a more policing role, opinion.


It depends how you view the personal conflicts with the legions and primarchs. We see how far Lorgar took his humiliation at the hands of Guilliman. Curze almost killed Dorn due to personal ideology. Corax hated Horus and its no telling what would have happened to Corax had the Great Crusade finished its course. If we take the fact that Horus' vision was the same as the Emperor's (As to why Horus was chosen), then it is clear that Corax did not belong. Especially a retarded Angron roaming around the galaxy would have created inter legion problems.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Don't feed the trolls please. you will only make it worse untill the exterminator comes by.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The emperor was extremely pragmatic, he knew from his paradigm what he had to do no matter the cost in the short as long as it secured the big picture objective.

I truly believe the primarchs were created for more then a singular purpose, from the beginning I believe the Emperor intended to sacrifice half of them if not eventually all of them. 

The emperor did not see the primarchs as "sons", he saw them as assets, chess pieces, and ultimately extensions of his own self that he felt he had power over as they were "him".

The emperor believed in achieving apotheosis in order to protect mankind, and in order to secure the galaxy for humanity above all else. The Emperor needed the heresy to happen in order for him to move all the pieces on the board to their precise positions, this was necessary for the end output.

If the Emperor had eliminated Horus immediately then certain pieces would have never moved, if the Emperor had eliminated certain primarchs early they too would have never influenced other pieces or ascended to the warp.

The Emperor needed to be mounted upon the golden throne in order to begin the final stage of his ascension, to feed upon the "faith/emotion/power" (call it what you like) of humanity.

Why did he need to be crippled? I believe it was for two primary reasons, he needed the despair, the suffering of the collective consciousness of humanity over past, present and future. This would only be achieved by allowing himself to be marred, crippled, and essentially eternally galvanized in a state of martyrdom. This influenced humanity to perceive the Emperor differently, to praise him in such a way that would have never occurred if not for his act of heroism to defend all mankind at the hands of horus...resulting in his sacrifice.

The second reason is that he was unhinged from the corporeal plane, allowing his "soul" to be in the warp more fully, while simultaneously allowing him to still be anchored into the physical plane. He needed a way to stay in the physical reality in order to siphon the "energy" of mankind, while simultaneously being able to manifest in the warp freely as well. He was beginning to shape his own portion of the warp while he grew in it, being physically anchored through his crippled body was to act as a feeding tube to his growing warp fetus.

The primarchs that turned were those that were most loyal to the Emperor, he chose each and everyone of them. While those that remained loyal held "questionable" loyalties to the Emperor, and more so their loyalty was to their ideals of humanity.

So why did the Emperor want those specific primarchs to trascend to "daemond-hood"? The Emperor plans on consuming them, along with the chaos gods they are now attached to. They were intended to be sleeper cells, ticking time bombs, a parasite within the Chaos gods themself. The Emperor upon awakening in his new "form", will use the backdoors he has in each of the chaos gods, which are his ascended primarchs to consume the chaos gods them self. Their sentience will melt away as he devours the emotional energy that once sustained them. 

You may ask, well doesn't the despair of humanity feed nurgle, doesn't its warlike tendencies feed khorne and so forth? Not so. The chaos gods are not true "gods", but rather large sentient collective masses of emotional energy. The emotions they feed upon are not automatically theirs, nor does it automatically go to them. They just have a tendency to prefer that type of energy, and desperately seek it out to consume it. The Emperor has been moving in upon their territory, thus why needed to be crippled in order to gain a warp presence, while sustaining a physical one. The Emperor has begun to consume all the emotional energy of mankind thus denying it from the chaos gods. As time goes on he denies them increasingly larger amounts of the warp energy they once devoured.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I meant no hostility. I just didn't feel like bringing up those points in paragraph form.
> If lux wants to make a thread I don't really care. All I want is sources. As in page numbers quotes or something.


Ahh I see, no probs. I try to clearly state when something is my opinion/theory so as to attempt as much as possible people not mistaking my theories for "certain unnamed persons" unusual this is correct as I say it is posts if you get my meaning.

I do love to debate some of the more unusual theories and even the weirder theories often have something in them I can agree with or piques my curiosity.

I'll try to provide quote or sources if I can in future.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Ahh I see, no probs. I try to clearly state when something is my opinion/theory so as to attempt as much as possible people not mistaking my theories for "certain unnamed persons" unusual this is correct as I say it is posts if you get my meaning.
> 
> I do love to debate some of the more unusual theories and even the weirder theories often have something in them I can agree with or piques my curiosity.
> 
> I'll try to provide quote or sources if I can in future.


Though Lux doesn't make productive arguments directly, some of his threads are good for open discussion.

@ Lux, one thing interesting about what you said is the concept that Chaos Gods are not gods but beings composed of energy. That is an interesting concept. In a sense, if one does not believe in an all powerful blah blah blah God, God is essentially a made up word. What you say is partly true because considering something a God is open to interpretation.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

He could have become a god without turning into a useless cripple and not telling his demigod creations that lead mankind and have a lot of his power about it though.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

NetherMessenger said:


> He could have become a god without turning into a useless cripple and not telling his demigod creations that lead mankind and have a lot of his power about it though.


The Emperor needed to be in a cripple state in order for his physical conduit to release a majority of his "soul self" into the warp, while still retaining an anchor to the physical realm that would feed his soul self to grow in the warp. If he remained unharmed and instantly evaporated horus from reality, then he would have sustained no grievous injuries. The greivous injuries were neccesary for two reasons, one is that he had to be injured to the point where he was still physically alive but his soul self was able to expand into the warp (thus he needed to be in a state of sustained near death).

The second reason he needed to be injured by a possessed horus in particular is due to that he needed to be injured by the direct power of the chaos gods combined. Their combined energy is what the Emperor needed, and I truly believe during his fight with chaos god possessed horus the Emperor was assimilating the energy that was put put into him to harm him. 

Why did the Emperor need to eliminate his primarchs? They had served their purpose, the ones that needed to ascend to daemonhood had done so. Thus the Emperor now had sleeper cells/back doors into the chaos gods once he awoke from his apotheosis sleep. Furthermore he needed the primarchs eliminated so none would tamper with his cocoon empire as he matured upon the golden throne. 

The Emperor needed the empire of mankind to become what it did, sustained emotional energy needed to be produced by the human collective so he could devour increasingly larger amounts of it as he sat in the warp. Ever since he has been put upon the throne he has been devouring the energy fed to him, additionally he has begun to increasingly devour the emotional energy produced by humanity as a whole. 

If the Empire of mankind had conquered the galaxy with the great crusade, the energy he needed to ascend would have ceased to be. The human collective conscious would have been unable to produce the energy he needed in the quantity that he needed it, this would have prevented his end game objective.

Furthermore since the Emperor ensured that his most loyal primarchs, the ones that followed his vision, his will, turned to chaos and or were consumed all that were left were the questionable primarchs (the loyalist). They followed the will and ideals of a great mankind, not those of the Emperor. Thus if they survived passed the heresy, passed the emperor being put upon the throne then they would have begun to shape the empire to their will. This would have prevented mankind from producing the emotional energy the Emperor needed, the fanatical faith, the despair, the pain, the suffering, the sneaky planning, the excess of everything.

This is significant, as it empowers his growing warp soul self and it increasingly denies the chaos gods the energy that they fed upon. 

So you may ask, well how does the emperor devour the emotions that the chaos gods devour already? This is because the chaos gods do not have some sort of mutually exclusive right to a specific spectrum of the emotional field, it is all up for free grabs. However due to the chaos gods being such big energy entities they are able to generally coerce, and or bully the energy they want from smaller competitors that would devour it as well.

The Emperor is using his position upon the golden throne, as well as his physical anchor as a feeding tube to give him the geographic position needed to be at the source of the human emotional enegery being produced. Thus he is eating the energy as it comes out of the oven, the portions he is unable to eat go past him and into the distant warp, where the gods and or others devour the remains he was unable to eat. As time goes by and he grows larger and stronger, he is devouring more and more of the collective energy of mankind that is produced pointblank before him, thus allowing less and less to flow past him into the chaos gods. This ultimately will result in starving the chaos gods into a weak, small form.

Once he has awoken from enough energy consumed, he will then aim to consume the chaos gods themselves as they are nothing but large sentient compositions of edible energy. The Emperor will finally make use of the primarchs he allowed to ascend to daemonhood, for they are still extensions of his own self and will. He will use them as a backdoor into the chaos gods to devour the chaos gods from the inside outward.


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## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

Lux said:


> Furthermore since the Emperor ensured that his most loyal primarchs, the ones that followed his vision, his will, turned to chaos and or were consumed all that were left were the questionable primarchs (the loyalist). They followed the will and ideals of a great mankind, not those of the Emperor. Thus if they survived passed the heresy, passed the emperor being put upon the throne then they would have begun to shape the empire to their will. This would have prevented mankind from producing the emotional energy the Emperor needed, the fanatical faith, the despair, the pain, the suffering, the sneaky planning, the excess of everything.


Interesting theory, except we know Angron was not at all devoted to the Emperor and we also know that Sanguinius was the primarch who embodied all that the Emperor is. He also possessed a flaw that ensures he is the most loyal servant of the Emperor.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

soonergold said:


> Interesting theory, except we know Angron was not at all devoted to the Emperor and we also know that Sanguinius was the primarch who embodied all that the Emperor is. He also possessed a flaw that ensures he is the most loyal servant of the Emperor.


I shall now predict the mad goddess's response,"In between the lines you can see that Angron was the most loyal to the Emperor"


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> I shall now predict the mad goddess's response,"In between the lines you can see that Angron was the most loyal to the Emperor"


Are well all forgetting that Angron didn't want horus as warmaster?

This clearly shows that he knew horus was corruptible.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Are well all forgetting that Angron didn't want horus as warmaster?
> 
> This clearly shows that he knew horus was corruptible.


"Angron was secretly best friends with Horus."


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I actually see some interesting theories here myself. I've always wondered why the Emperor stood there and let Horus cripple him. The predominate account of that fight I've heard is that the Emperor let Horus cripple him, that he couldn't bring himself to harm his son.

That strikes me as extremely odd. The Emperor burned whole systems to the ground, he ordered the genocide of entire species, he destroyed worlds at the slightest sign of corruption, and punished (via the Night Lords) those that threatened to rebel. Yet when he saw the Chaos Gods bring his Imperium to ruins, when the Imperial Palace was besieged, when the Loyalists were on their last leg and he stood before the Arch-Betrayer -- he stayed his hand? He let his son horribly maim him? And when Horus randomly killed some seemingly nobody, then he destroyed him body and soul?

Then there is the issue of the arrival of Guilliman and the Lion to Terra. Their inbound Legions threatened to overwhelm Horus and he knew the game was up so he lowered his shields in an direct threat to the Emperor. The Emperor, who communicated with Magnus prior to ever meeting him in the Great Crusade -- could not even sense Guilliman or the Lion's Legions coming through the warp. Especially when they are but hours away? I'm almost certain I've read parts of books where psykers can feel the "waves" coming from the warp that forewarns of ships arriving.

I'm not saying Lux is correct in his theory -- but you have to concede that there were some interesting decisions made by the Emperor.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angron was originally a "loyalist primarch", the emperor knew his martial honor would guide him towards the good of humanity, amd not towards the emperors will. This is made clear in betrayer, where angron states if he never had the nails he would have killed the emperor as he saw him as an enslaver of humans.

Thus the emperor allowed him to be given the nails, didnt remove them with his infinite power. This is because the nails made angron loyal, it made him need the emperorand the crusade as a way to escape the pain of the nails. The emperor needed angron as he was the chosen primarch to be sacrificed to khorne, his martial honor and anger made him compatible. The emperor needed a primarch to be sacrificed to khorne as he needed a backdoor into every chaos god, including khorne and no other primarch was compatible.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

That was my point about him and Horus, this guy had the ability to eradicate Horus from existence, all that power and he lets himself be crippled to the point that he becomes a hood ornament powering the Imperium's GPS. Doesn't jive.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

Why? We know that for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was human, he was just as flawed as anyone else. His people skills could really use some work for example (Angron, Perturabo, Curze, Lorgar etc. being examples of people he could have treated with more tact). 

Horus was his favorite son, the guy he liked the most (there's a difference between killing your favorite son and ordering the deaths of x number of faceless people - one is a person you know and care about and the others are strangers and a statistic). Why is it so hard to accept that the Emperor couldn't bring himself to bash Horus over the head with everything he's got? It's a moment when the Emperor's feelings are overshadowing his capability to reason (and don't tell me that's never happened in human history). So he doesn't give it his all in the fight and Horus beats him badly. Then it finally sinks in that Horus is just rotten to the core and he hits him with everything he's got (again probably more overwhelmed by emotions like feeling betrayed, angry about it all and despair at his grand plan for humanity going down in flames).

As for not knowing Guilliman is coming. How would he when the 4 Gods are masking it and he's got warp activity around and on Terra that's over 9000? You say he talked with Magnus before meeting him but Magnus was a powerful psyker, Guilliman isn't.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

soonergold said:


> ...and we also know that Sanguinius was the primarch who embodied all that the Emperor is.


Do we?



BlackGuard said:


> I actually see some interesting theories here myself. I've always wondered why the Emperor stood there and let Horus cripple him. The predominate account of that fight I've heard is that the Emperor let Horus cripple him, that he couldn't bring himself to harm his son.


We have to understand the Emperor's mindset during the Siege of Terra:




William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> He [the Emperor] knows they are more frightened by his silence than by the enemy. They look to him for leadership, and he can give them none... For the first time in his millennia long life, the Emperor knows despair.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> The magnitude of his defeat stuns him. The lunar bases have fallen. Most of Earth is under the Warmaster's heel. Rebel Titans surround the palace and are held at bay only by the desperate efforts of a few loyalists. It is only a matter of time before the
> palace's defences fail and the last bastions of resistance fall.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> ...The Emperor doesn't answer. He is lost within himself seeking answers to his own questions.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:



> Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers? Is this where I die? He feels bewildered. Even now, with the Traitor Warmaster's forces battering at the gate, he finds it difficult to believe that he has been betrayed.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> The moment he [The Emperor] has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers? Is this where I die?





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> Not for a second had the Emperor doubted him, not even when word had come from the Savage worlds that the Warmaster was gathering forces. He had deluded himself that Horus must have good reason to do so without consulting him. I should have been warned by the failure of my precognition, he thinks.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> The Emperor knows they rely on him for guidance. They still believe in him. They think he can lead them from this trap. They are wrong.
> 
> Horus is the greatest the galaxy has ever known. Who should know better than his creator? He is schooled by a century of warfare. There will be no way out, no loopholes, no flaws in the plan. The Warmaster would have to be mad to leave one.
> 
> ...





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> How is this possible he wonders. Could Horus have disrupted the teleportation beam? Is he so powerful?
> 
> ...Insane voices gibber madly inside his skull...





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> He scans about him, seeking the Primarchs but the walls of the Warmaster's battle barge are resistant to his mindsight.





William King's account from White Dwarf 131 said:


> They fight off hordes of mutated beasts. One by one they die. In the end the emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus.





From the above quotes we can see that the Emperor is bewildered, confused, deluded and unsure of what to do. He has lost his precognitive vision, and can't fathom what is happening. That is the mindset he has when he finally confronts Horus. 

The account of the final battle in the _Collected Visions_ - which I believe is the most recent and comprehensive, and is also strikingly similar to Bill King's account - doesn't have the Emperor consciously holding back from fighting Horus. He fights, but he loses. Horus categorically beats the Emperor physically, psychically and spiritually. If the lone custodian/terminator or 'Trooper Persson' hadn't stumbled into the duel at that moment it's quite likely that Horus would have finished the job and killed the Emperor. The respite offered by Horus flaying the custodian/terminator/Persson alive and then the realisation of the trap that had ensnared Horus (Chaos) is enough to force the Emperor's hand into focussing the entirety of his psychic might into an offensive attack which then as good as kills himself in the process.



BlackGuard said:


> Then there is the issue of the arrival of Guilliman and the Lion to Terra. Their inbound Legions threatened to overwhelm Horus and he knew the game was up so he lowered his shields in an direct threat to the Emperor. The Emperor, who communicated with Magnus prior to ever meeting him in the Great Crusade -- could not even sense Guilliman or the Lion's Legions coming through the warp. Especially when they are but hours away? I'm almost certain I've read parts of books where psykers can feel the "waves" coming from the warp that forewarns of ships arriving.


_Collected Visions_ page 359 informs us that the Emperor was aware of the impending arrival of the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. But the arrival of those Legions was not a guarantee of victory, and the Emperor seemed to have accepted (as per _Nemesis_) that he would have to confront Horus personally in order to end the rebellion.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

BlackGuard said:


> I actually see some interesting theories here myself. I've always wondered why the Emperor stood there and let Horus cripple him. The predominate account of that fight I've heard is that the Emperor let Horus cripple him, that he couldn't bring himself to harm his son.
> 
> That strikes me as extremely odd. The Emperor burned whole systems to the ground, he ordered the genocide of entire species, he destroyed worlds at the slightest sign of corruption, and punished (via the Night Lords) those that threatened to rebel. Yet when he saw the Chaos Gods bring his Imperium to ruins, when the Imperial Palace was besieged, when the Loyalists were on their last leg and he stood before the Arch-Betrayer -- he stayed his hand? He let his son horribly maim him? And when Horus randomly killed some seemingly nobody, then he destroyed him body and soul?
> 
> ...


If someone told you to rip your sons throat out and feed it to him in order to save the world would you do it?

And last time I checked horus just didn't kill Ollanius Pius he flayed him alive.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> one is that he had to be injured to the point where he was still physically alive but his soul self was able to expand into the warp (thus he needed to be in a state of sustained near death).


We know that Magnus was capable of projecting his psychic-self (his soul, for all intents and purposes) into the warp repeatedly whilst still fully alive. Why is the Emperor unable to do so?



> Their combined energy is what the Emperor needed, and I truly believe during his fight with chaos god possessed horus the Emperor was assimilating the energy that was put put into him to harm him.


There's simply no evidence of this. If the Emperor had been absorbing the power out of Horus surely he would not have been injured so badly? Such an event should cause Horus to weaken noticeably throughout the fight, and he doesn't. 



> Ever since he has been put upon the throne he has been devouring the energy fed to him, additionally he has begun to increasingly devour the emotional energy produced by humanity as a whole.


There is absolutely zero evidence that the Emperor is a) capable of devouring emotional energy or b) doing so. There is however plenty of evidence that he is weakening.



> If the Empire of mankind had conquered the galaxy with the great crusade, the energy he needed to ascend would have ceased to be. The human collective conscious would have been unable to produce the energy he needed in the quantity that he needed it, this would have prevented his end game objective.


However, had the Great Crusade succeeded then his 'apotheosis' would be unnecessary since, by your own statement and his apparent plan, Chaos would have been left with a reduced food supply. 



> They followed the will and ideals of a great mankind, not those of the Emperor. Thus if they survived passed the heresy, passed the emperor being put upon the throne then they would have begun to shape the empire to their will.


1) Most of the loyalist Primarchs did survive past the Heresy (at this point there are only two confirmed killed during it). 
2) The shape the Imperium took on past-Scouring is the polar opposite of the shape the Emperor attempted to force it into during the Great Crusade. Why would he go to the trouble of doing so, if what he actually wanted was the opposite? Why would he deny Lorgar, when he needed his faith?



> This is because the chaos gods do not have some sort of mutually exclusive right to a specific spectrum of the emotional field, it is all up for free grabs.


The Chaos Gods don't have a 'right' to their emotion, they *are* that emotion. They don't feed off it, they don't track it down and consume it; it empowers them because it is them. They are the emotions of the material realm given sentience in the immaterium. 



> The Emperor is using his position upon the golden throne, as well as his physical anchor as a feeding tube to give him the geographic position needed to be at the source of the human emotional enegery being produced.


1) Terra is hardly the 'source' of all human emotional energy. The source of all human emotional energy is the individual human feeling it. The warp is present there, the Emperor is not.
2) Since the emotional energy of the warp is generated in the warp and contained (barring freak intrusions) in the warp how would a physical anchor be useful as a feeding tube for it?



> Thus he is eating the energy as it comes out of the oven, the portions he is unable to eat go past him and into the distant warp, where the gods and or others devour the remains he was unable to eat. As time goes by and he grows larger and stronger, he is devouring more and more of the collective energy of mankind that is produced pointblank before him, thus allowing less and less to flow past him into the chaos gods.


Since the warp is present alongside every inch of the materium and the Chaos Gods are present in every 'inch' of the warp, while the Emperor directly co-indices with the sole fixed point in the warp I highly, highly doubt that he can some how block the Gods.



> The Emperor will finally make use of the primarchs he allowed to ascend to daemonhood, for they are still extensions of his own self and will. He will use them as a backdoor into the chaos gods to devour the chaos gods from the inside outward.


What exactly is the purpose of this backdoor? If (as you claim) the Gods do not have an inviolable claim to their emotion, then having someone aligned with 'their' emotion is pointless as it is not theirs in any since of the word. Surely the Emperor could simply starve them until nothing remains. He wouldn't even need to eat them. Having agents of such power as the Daemon-Primarchs running around in the meantime is surely counter-productive to his goals though. After all, Angron's Dominion of Fire was no where near Terra and thus the anger and pain produced there would not have passed the Emperor at all.

Surely it would be more logical to starve out the Chaos Gods *before* giving them immensely powerful servants and a foothold across the Imperium?



BlackGuard said:


> That strikes me as extremely odd. The Emperor burned whole systems to the ground, he ordered the genocide of entire species, he destroyed worlds at the slightest sign of corruption, and punished (via the Night Lords) those that threatened to rebel.


And throughout this the Emperor never, ever took a hand to his sons. Lorgar physically assaulted a brother Primarch in the Emperors presence, and received no blow in return. Each and every time the Emperor sanctioned or punished his sons he did so indirectly. Perhaps because he was moved by the same restraint that staid his hand against Horus.



Lux said:


> Thus the emperor allowed him to be given the nails, didnt remove them with his infinite power. This is because the nails made angron loyal, it made him need the emperorand the crusade as a way to escape the pain of the nails.


Whether or not Angron needed the Great Crusade is debatable but regardless Angron never once shows himself to be loyal to the Emperor or his will, which was something you said all the 'traitors' did. Also not showing loyalty to the Emperor's will were Alpharius (in _Legion_ he effectively calls the Emperor's vision bullshit) and Fulgrim (who defied the Emperor's will by modifying his Legionarres beyond his design).



> The emperor needed a primarch to be sacrificed to khorne as he needed a backdoor into every chaos god, including khorne and no other primarch was compatible.


Except of course Sanguinious, who had an entire system dedicated to getting him to fall to Khorne.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> If someone told you to rip your sons throat out and feed it to him in order to save the world would you do it?
> 
> And last time I checked horus just didn't kill Ollanius Pius he flayed him alive.


It wasn't just rip his throat out it was, would you atomize and flay is soul would you do it?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> It wasn't just rip his throat out it was, would you atomize and flay is soul would you do it?


I don't know about you but I would.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I don't know about you but I would.


Maybe, but you'd definitely hesitate or contemplate it. Which is the point I guess.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Maybe, but you'd definitely hesitate or contemplate it. Which is the point I guess.


And if his brother/sister was dead at his feet I wouldn't think twice about killing him. 

Perhaps he though horus could be redeemed. He might have reasoned that once he realized sang was dead by his hand it would be enough to bring him to his senses.

After all there's nothing saying sang would have been permanently dead. Perhaps If the emperor survived he could have been revived.

Remember malachador's last bit of strength revived the emperor enough to give dorn instruction about the throne. The emperor has more power.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

> And throughout this the Emperor never, ever took a hand to his sons. Lorgar physically assaulted a brother Primarch in the Emperors presence, and received no blow in return. Each and every time the Emperor sanctioned or punished his sons he did so indirectly. Perhaps because he was moved by the same restraint that staid his hand against Horus.


There is also the belief that the Emperor ordered the 2nd and 11th terminated. Of coarse there is no concrete evidence for this, the theory is still in the open. If he could order the termination of two legions, I do not see raising a hand to his demon-infested son as being beyond his moral fiber.


In response to Child of the Emperor - 

I wasn't aware of all that information. That does put the Emperor in another light to me and does explain quite a bit.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> There is also the belief that the Emperor ordered the 2nd and 11th terminated. Of coarse there is no concrete evidence for this, the theory is still in the open. If he could order the termination of two legions, I do not see raising a hand to his demon-infested son as being beyond his moral fiber.


It's not really about his moral fiber, since clearly he has no problem with brutally murdering entire planets. It's about his willingness to do this to his sons directly. Even if he ordered the destruction of the 2nd and 11th he still didn't do it himself. There's a big difference, psychologically speaking, between ordering the death of a legion and killing your son.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I wouldn't call Lux's idea plausible. I think fanciful is a more appropriate word. When dealing with extremely powerful/intelligent (supposedly) beings, I suppose almost anything is possible. 

I wouldn't mind the Emperor to have pre-planned his fall so that he could feed off the faith of his devotees for ten millenia...I really wouldn't. I just don't think this is the direction BL is taking.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

If the Emperor told Lorgar about Chaos etc etc. How come Lorgar went apeshit at Kor Phaeron and Erebus when they told him about the lack of destroyed cults on their homeworld? (you know, the ones which had heavy chaos undertones?) This doesn't really make any sense to me.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> If the Emperor told Lorgar about Chaos etc etc. How come Lorgar went apeshit at Kor Phaeron and Erebus when they told him about the lack of destroyed cults on their homeworld? (you know, the ones which had heavy chaos undertones?) This doesn't really make any sense to me.


Lorgar was the most trusted son of the Emperor, he was told of Chaos and the Emperor's plan to achieve apotheosis. Lorgar was told of the heresy he had to form and start, he was also informed of the many guises he would have to wear in order to properly move all the chess pieces into their destined positions.

Lorgar was acting


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> chess pieces into


OMGE Lorgar could turn people into chess pieces!!!


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Lux said:


> Lorgar was the most trusted son of the Emperor, he was told of Chaos and the Emperor's plan to achieve apotheosis. Lorgar was told of the heresy he had to form and start, he was also informed of the many guises he would have to wear in order to properly move all the chess pieces into their destined positions.
> 
> Lorgar was acting


If the primarchs knew of chaos the heresy wouldn't have happened. Lorgar wouldn't have searched for other gods to worship and chances are horus would have seen the signs of chaos taint from erebus.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Lux said:


> After reading scion of the storm, along with a few other books regarding Horus rising, it has come to my understanding that the Emperor trusted Lorgar far more then prior presented. I believe the Emperor told Lorgar about chaos, rather that their existed "other gods", and that he asked Lorgar to go learn about them and to worship them. To put it simply the Emperor asked Lorgar to become his "Judas Iscariot", knowing full well what would happen to Lorgar, and his brothers that would also follow chaos.
> 
> Furthermore I believe the Emperor did this, as well as reveal to Lorgar that this was in order for the Emperor to achieve apotheosis. Lorgar out of loyalty faith, and devotion in the Emperor followed his commands and began orchestrating the heresy.
> 
> ...


Just saw this thread. I have only read the topic, I will go back and read (most of) the rest. But here is my 2 cents.

The question is "Is The Emperor a/thee God". He always said he wasn't, but who knows. I personaly think he is at least on the 4 Chaos gods scale, if not more powerful than all 4 combined (which is proven at the end of the Heresy when the 4 chaos gods withdraw from Horus lest they die).

Reguardless of godhood, it is established the Emp is incredibly powerful. So much so you would think that the father of 20 Primarchs would have a bit of an idea of how the minds of his son's would work. Esp. when you consider he tailor made them. Not one person who is reading this who is a parent got to choose "ok, suzy will be a jock, and Ted will be a nerd". The Emp. did. If you can't be a good father when you can custom make your kids than you have to be a real dipshit.

That being said, one of the things I love about HH is that do not try to avoid the hard questions.

-Why did the Emperor not help Angron instead of kidnapping him? How did he think he would respond?
-Humiliating Lorgar, and than telling him he is a failure and that there is no god. How did he think he would respond?
-Giving Magnus the ability to swim the 'great ocean' and than telling him no? For Magnus it was so ingrained it would be like one of us having our fathers tell us that we have to cut out our eyes, ears, and tongue because we didn't know how to use them properly. How did he think he would respond?

The list goes on, and not just with the Traitors.

Ultimately you have to look at it in one of 2 ways (IMO). Either the Emp. is the worst father of all time, or he planned all of this with a greater goal in mind. And by saying "greater", I don't nec. mean good.

As far as the OP goes, I partly agree with him. However Lorgar was not chosen by the emp any more than any other Primarch. He was made to fill a role. The Emp. trusted none of his son's with what his 'whole plan' for humanity was. That is evident in "1000 sons" when Magnus figures out about the webway the emp. is creating, and the emp. looks at him as a kid who just got into his porn stash.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Once again the troll is trolling hard. There is no basis to this position. Lorgar was not directed to worship chaos by the emp. Absurd.
One minor point though, the emp did punch out leman russ when they met.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I'm gonna say you are wrong on this Lux, personally I think all the theories of the Emperor planning the Heresy and it all being part of a grand plan is bullshit. My reason being the 40k universe is based on tragedy and grim dark loss of hope, and if it is all a big plan then that negates the whole atmosphere of the 40k universe. The 40k universe is the ultimate tragedy a lost dream of what could have been like a blow job without a happy ending!


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> I'm gonna say you are wrong on this Lux


Is she ever right?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Not that I am aware of.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> I personaly think he is at least on the 4 Chaos gods scale, if not more powerful than all 4 combined (which is proven at the end of the Heresy when the 4 chaos gods withdraw from Horus lest they die).


You've really exaggerated that. The Emperor's psychic assault on Horus wouldn't have destroyed the Chaos Gods, to suggest so would be ludicrous.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I do not think it is ridiculous, it is merely your opinion cote. I also believe that the four chaos gods had vested all of their power and essence into horus during that fight. The chaos gods truly knew fear, as if they woukd have stayed inside horus during that assault they knew they would be erased from existence.

The emperors power was to such a degree he was able to erase the very warp essence that horus was composed of, his soul, his warp matter which was immense due to being a primarch. The chaos gods are just large collections of sentient warp matter, not all powerful, not infinite, not true gods, just gods in name.

The chaos gods are nothing more then large warp entities, no different then a warp daemon, just larger in scale. The emperor's attack and power was of the nature and ability to erase the warp, emotion, sentience, the chaos gods saw that and fled for their lives.

The emperor wanted them alive, he needed them to survive, they had played their part in the emperor's plan and thus it was time to end horus and to drive them away without killing them.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> Stuff.


The thing is that 'his' opinion is a very widely held one that the majority of people and creators of the fluff is thus a FACT. When one/small number of people have a opinion it is just that, when a large number of people have an opinion it is a fact.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

locustgate said:


> The thing is that 'his' opinion is a very widely held one that the majority of people and creators of the fluff is thus a FACT. When one/small number of people have a opinion it is just that, when a large number of people have an opinion it is a fact.


You are associating your own perception, as well as that of those that aligns with yours/cote as being the "majority", when in fact you have no way of quantifying this claim at all.

It as I have stated from the beginning, this forum along with all others is composed of nothing more than opinions. You are a perfect example of one who justifies their own perception as being "THE" perception, due it to being of the "majority". Your majority however is merely a arbitrary number that you have chosen to be "enough", it simply is how humans function.

Point being your claim that an opinion held by the majority equates to fact, only demonstrates your desperateness to elevate your own perception while eliminating all others that do not align with it. 

I suppose you have difficulty with accepting views different than your own, don't you? Your last post makes that very clear, which causes me to postulate how close minded you are beyond hiding behind the keys of a message board.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> The emperor wanted them alive, he needed them to survive, they had played their part in the emperor's plan and thus it was time to end horus and to drive them away without killing them.


Why did the Emperor need/want them alive? The entire point behind the madness you are presenting as his plan is that he wanted to defeat Chaos at their own game. If he had the power to kill them, then he would not need to have gone through all this complex plotting.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Why did the Emperor need/want them alive? The entire point behind the madness you are presenting as his plan is that he wanted to defeat Chaos at their own game. If he had the power to kill them, then he would not need to have gone through all this complex plotting.


Once again you are merely interpreting it according to your own perception, processing it through your own personal opinion. I have never stated that the Emperor wanted to defeat chaos at their own game, not once have I stated that in a post in this thread.

I posted quite a few post detailing what it is he wanted to do exactly, I could re-quote those if you would like?

The Emperor never saw his primarchs as sons, they were products, services, and disposable assets once they have achieved amortization. Their sole purpose were to be chess pieces in his game, of which the end objective was for him to achieve apotheosis. 

This apotheosis could only be achieved with the galaxy in a proper state of being, he needed the heresy as well as chaos to accomplish this. He purposely had every primarch engineered physiologically, and psychologically in order for them to carry out their pre-planned purpose. The primarchs that fell to chaos were always meant to fall to chaos, they would serve as his gateways into chaos once he was re-born into the warp. They are in function parasites within the chaos gods, that are feeding the Emperor.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

So after careful research it's clear to me what the real story is.

The emperor was the one who fell to chaos. What we call the human webway was a psychic amplifier it was used in order to cause the primarchs to turn on each other.

The only primarch not affected was angron. However the emperor anticipated this and manipulated events to ensure that angron would hate him. He would follow whoever asked him to fight the emperor.

Proof of this betrayal is in the picture of horus sanguinious and the emperor. Notice the wound on sangs chest it's clearly a stab wound from behind. 

After all horus and his brother were alone the tricks the emperor played would only work at a distance. 

Now you're asking why now did the truth come out? Well the reason is simple malachador was on the controls for the golden throne at this point he was near death his power was fading. They were able to overcome the effects and realize was happened. The emperor killed sang from behind knowing that horus alone could not harm him.

You see he was planning on getting interred on the throne. However when magnus opened the warp portal he needed to have all his power at his disposal. Meaning his mortal body had to be comatose. 


It's all there you just have to read the horus heresy.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Stuff.


Yes....yes.......yes.....It all is there...in between the lines.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Once again you are merely interpreting it according to your own perception, processing it through your own personal opinion. I have never stated that the Emperor wanted to defeat chaos at their own game, not once have I stated that in a post in this thread.


You stated that he wanted to achieve apotheosis, and that the only way to do that was to consume the energy intended for the Chaos Gods (in other words, beating them at their own game). Leaving aside for the moment the fact that this isn't possible, surely this would be easier if the Chaos Gods no longer existed? If it were true that emotions just milled around in the warp until claimed by a greater power, wouldn't it be easier for the Emperor to consume it, and thus achieve his apotheosis quicker, if he were the only power left?

I don't expect your arguments to be consistent with fluff Lux but they should at least be internally consistent.



> This apotheosis could only be achieved with the galaxy in a proper state of being, he needed the heresy as well as chaos to accomplish this.


Just answer me one simple question: Why does he need the Chaos Gods?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Good stuff


When has her posts ever been consistent, they constantly contradicts themselves and each other.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

I doubt that is true cause if it was and the people of the imperium found out they were hand fed to chaos man the backlash this would create would be biblical and make many if not all join the tau.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

locustgate said:


> When has her posts ever been consistent, they constantly contradicts themselves and each other.


Contradiction is merely the nature of Warhammer 40k, and life itself. Chaos, humanity, the primarchs, the Emperor's actions, and ultimately the infinite variation in paradigms that perceive all of the prior mentioned.

All Contradicting, everything contradicts "itself" when you view it without the constraint of time. 

You just have not yet let go of the limitations that limit your perception, when you do contradiction will no longer exist to you as a variable but rather merely as a passing state of mind.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> I doubt that is true cause if it was and the people of the imperium found out they were hand fed to chaos man the backlash this would create would be biblical and make many if not all join the tau.


I do not perceive so, the people of current (from our perspective) warhammer 40k are being "fed" to "Chaos", and the backlash is biblical but it has not tampered with the Emperor's plans at all. Psykers of all sorts are actively fed to the "emperor" to ensure he is able to direct the beacon of light, furthermore millions of souls are actively fed into the primordial meat grinder of war, deception, betrayal, ambition every day. PDF soldiers die in untold numbers every moment, all for the "Emperor" and his "goals", it makes no difference if they know or do not know or rather what they believe they know.

Current warhammer 40k is exactly what the Emperor wanted to occur as a result of the heresy, it is what he planned for and accomplished. He needed to be able to expand his warp powers, his physical body was limiting the amount of power he could channel. Thus he needed his physical container weakened, but not utterly destroyed. Horus provided just what he needed which was a weakened/crippled physical container, yet still an immortal living one. 

The Emperor has not been feeding humanity to chaos, he has been feeding upon humanity and all of its intricate emotions, experiences, and actions. The emotions and actions that chaos once fed upon, such as war, deception, greed, fear, the Emperor now feeds upon them instead. Denying the chaos gods more and more emotions as he/it grows in power and size, the Emperor is starving chaos which will ultimately cause them to cease to exist.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Jesus Christ, there are some fine drugs being used in this thread. Where do I get some?

If I park my wallet in the next door neighbours cat with the headlights on, how much change do I get?


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't agree with you _Lux_. Beyond conjecture, most lore directly points to the Emperor being completely unaware of the the Heresy.
> 
> However, your theory is plausible. I would like to know more about what parts of _Scions of the Storm_, _Betrayer_ and _The First Heretic_ you're referring to though.


While I don't agree with the OP. I do think the Emperor knew what was going on. In "Horus Rising" the Emperor recalls Rogal Dorn and his legion back to Terra to fortify it even before Horus is corrupted. Horus doesn't even know why, thinking that perhaps Dorn is in trouble or something. That is too much of a coincidence for me.


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

I had a proper good think about this last night whilst consuming Oreo's.....and its a bit mad really isn't it? Like has been alluded to earlier in the thread, Lorgar was super pissed when Kor Phareon let the cat out of the bag about the old religions/rituals. To say this was an act on the part of Lorgar, to feign shock and surprise as he really knows what was playing out is a little convoluted. 

It is probably true to say that there was more going on than the Emperor was willing to let on but to say that the Heresy was orchestrated and pre-ordained just doesn't sit right with me. Also to suggest that the Emperor was willing to sacrifice half of the Primarchs in this asinine plan again sounds wrong.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> While I don't agree with the OP. I do think the Emperor knew what was going on. In "Horus Rising" the Emperor recalls Rogal Dorn and his legion back to Terra to fortify it even before Horus is corrupted. Horus doesn't even know why, thinking that perhaps Dorn is in trouble or something. That is too much of a coincidence for me.


We can't ignore the fact that the emperor might have know about the tyranids. After all the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the imperium Perhaps he felt their shadow or had some other indication they were coming. 

I mean think about it Imagine if the imperium had 10 000 years under the emperors rule to prepare for the nids.

To me assuming he knew the heresy was going to happen. Why make horus warmaster? Why not wipe the word bearers out? Why allow lodges to happen? He also could have recalled any primarch that was liability. 


However there is one more interesting point. If Russ was the emperors executioner why did he listen to Horus instead of his father?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> If I park my wallet in the next door neighbours cat with the headlights on, how much change do I get?


$43.18 NZ



Logaan said:


> I had a proper good think about this last night whilst consuming Oreo's.....


Would you care to borrow my crack pipe for the weekend?


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> We can't ignore the fact that the emperor might have know about the tyranids. After all the emperor is the most powerful psyker in the imperium Perhaps he felt their shadow or had some other indication they were coming.
> 
> I mean think about it Imagine if the imperium had 10 000 years under the emperors rule to prepare for the nids.
> 
> ...


I think that the only reason the Emperor is on the Golden Throne the way he is is because that is exactly where he wants to be. Why would he want that to happen? I think it is because of something you said in your post. "10,000 years of the Emperor's rule". I will one up you on that, what about 10,000 years of fanatical worship to a being that was already powerful enough to expunge 4 manifested Chaos gods from Horus? 10k years of worship manifesting itself in the warp I am sure will be quite a power up for a being that was already almost all powerful. 

A bit of that can be seen in the "Last Church" when the Emperor is lectured "if you deny humanity something, it will only make them crave it more". Well, they were denied their god all through the Heresy, after the Heresy the floodgates open and the Emperor is worshiped on such a fanatical scale Lorgar on his best day trying to convert people (pre corruption) could ever hope for.

Furthermore, notice how there are no loyalist primarchs left? Very convienient that they should just all die or "become lost". Their presence would have taken away from people's direct worship of the Emperor because they would have worshiped 'Emperor light' in his absense. Outside Curze (who killed himself) and Alpharius (who may not be dead, but even if he is Omega is still there to lead the legion) the traitors (short of Horus) survived. I wouldn't put it past the Emp. to have 'Thunder Warriored" the remaining Primarchs.

I believe when his corpse finaly dies there will be a new god born more powerful than the other 4 combined, and the new Emp. on steroids will kill the other 4 as I believed has been his ultimate plan.

He reminds me of "Malal". He was a chaos god from decades ago that was supposed to be the 5th chaos god. His thing is that he wanted to kill the other 4 chaos gods.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> I think that the only reason the Emperor is on the Golden Throne the way he is is because that is exactly where he wants to be. Why would he want that to happen? I think it is because of something you said in your post. "10,000 years of the Emperor's rule". I will one up you on that, what about 10,000 years of fanatical worship to a being that was already powerful enough to expunge 4 manifested Chaos gods from Horus? 10k years of worship manifesting itself in the warp I am sure will be quite a power up for a being that was already almost all powerful.
> 
> A bit of that can be seen in the "Last Church" when the Emperor is lectured "if you deny humanity something, it will only make them crave it more". Well, they were denied their god all through the Heresy, after the Heresy the floodgates open and the Emperor is worshiped on such a fanatical scale Lorgar on his best day trying to convert people (pre corruption) could ever hope for.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that the primarchs were a tool to make him into a god.

Doesn't make sense TBH. If that were a truth that ever got out even the loyalist chapters would turn on the imperium they venerate their primarch more than the emperor.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> So what you are saying is that the primarchs were a tool to make him into a god.
> 
> Doesn't make sense TBH. If that were a truth that ever got out even the loyalist chapters would turn on the imperium they venerate their primarch more than the emperor.


They can't really find out now can they? Hard to question a corpse. As I said, he did it to the thunder warriors. In "Outcast Dead" their version of Horus was wasting away in a desert. He certainly didn't leave anyone around to conterdict that narrative.

And I don't think he wants to be a god. If you define 'god' in the traditional power levels of 40k the Emp. is at least (IMO) as powerful as any one of the Chaos gods. So no, he does not want to be 'a god', he already had that. I believe he wants to be "THEE GOD", and if he pulls this off he may be able to destroy the chaos gods.

You made me think though. Curze is the only traitor (other than Horus), that dies and also never becomes a Daemon Prince. When he allows himself to die he says something like "Death is nothing compared to vindication".

I wonder with all of the nightmares of the future he had seen that he didn't find out what was going on.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> They can't really find out now can they? Hard to question a corpse. As I said, he did it to the thunder warriors. In "Outcast Dead" their version of Horus was wasting away in a desert. He certainly didn't leave anyone around to conterdict that narrative.
> 
> And I don't think he wants to be a god. If you define 'god' in the traditional power levels of 40k the Emp. is at least (IMO) as powerful as any one of the Chaos gods. So no, he does not want to be 'a god', he already had that. I believe he wants to be "THEE GOD", and if he pulls this off he may be able to destroy the chaos gods.
> 
> ...


Curze wasn't a chaos follower he followed horus but his entire stance on it was you can shove it.

The problem with curze is that he didn't have anyone to help him. He was sort of insane and he lived alone most of his life. he confided in Fulgrim his visions but all he did was tell dorn and make curze look evil.

Now if Fulgrim was a real friend they might have looked into this together. Perhaps talked to magnus to figure out if there was a way to make sense of what was happening. 


You know now that you mention it the entire tool theory does have some grounds. After all The emperor knew about curze and he did send the one primarch that was a suck up to him to teach him imperial ways. 

Hmmm.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Curze wasn't a chaos follower he followed horus but his entire stance on it was you can shove it.
> 
> The problem with curze is that he didn't have anyone to help him. He was sort of insane and he lived alone most of his life. he confided in Fulgrim his visions but all he did was tell dorn and make curze look evil.
> 
> ...


Not only that, but the person who issued the order to send someone to kill Curze was the Emperor himself... and if I remember correctly he did it AFTER he was on the Golden Throne (at least that is what wiki says). What could Curze have seen in his dreams that would make the Emperor wake up from his corpse nap to order someone to go and kill him? And if your theory is correct that he didn't actualy follow chaos (which I find hard to believe. Him and Angron have Chaos written all over them even pre-heresy), than why was Curze singled out for special attention when he was not even corrupted? What did Curze know that made him willingly accept death?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> Not only that, but the person who issued the order to send someone to kill Curze was the Emperor himself... and if I remember correctly he did it AFTER he was on the Golden Throne (at least that is what wiki says). What could Curze have seen in his dreams that would make the Emperor wake up from his corpse nap to order someone to go and kill him? And if your theory is correct that he didn't actualy follow chaos (which I find hard to believe. Him and Angron have Chaos written all over them even pre-heresy), than why was Curze singled out for special attention when he was not even corrupted? What did Curze know that made him willingly accept death?


The other to dispatch curze came before he was throne. There was a brief time when he was able to tell dorn how to activate the throne abd that's probably when the other happened.

The nightlords and Curze in particular told chaos to shove it They are called chaos marines because the imperium is to lazy to notice the difference. Everything curze did was for justice. He was alone for most of his life He saw things every day that made him wonder what is happening he realized that waiting for the authorities to do something won't work. That the only thing he can do it instill terror. and only when they are dead is justice served.

That is what his death meant. By allowing himself to be killed he proved that his way was the right way.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> I will one up you on that, what about 10,000 years of fanatical worship to a being that was already powerful enough to expunge 4 manifested Chaos gods from Horus? 10k years of worship manifesting itself in the warp I am sure will be quite a power up for a being that was already almost all powerful.


1) The Emperor did not have the power to expunge the influence of the Gods from Horus, they willingly withdrew it. Why is a bit up in the air but it doesn't seem to have been fear.
2) Worship has very little effect on the warp. The Chaos Gods are not fed by worship, they are fed by emotion. The Emperor is not tied to an emotion, because he is not a warp power, and therefore has nothing to gain power from. 



Zooey72 said:


> Not only that, but the person who issued the order to send someone to kill Curze was the Emperor himself... and if I remember correctly he did it AFTER he was on the Golden Throne (at least that is what wiki says).


Night Haunter claims that the first assassin was sent after his assault on Dorn, well before the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne. M'Shen on the other hand was not sent directly by the Emperor but on behalf of the Emperor, as a continuation of his attempts to assassinate the Primarch.



> And if your theory is correct that he didn't actualy follow chaos (which I find hard to believe. Him and Angron have Chaos written all over them even pre-heresy),


Night Haunter never truly worshiped or followed Chaos and many in his Legion still don't. At best Night Haunter viewed Chaos as a tool he could use, at worst he viewed it as weakness.



> than why was Curze singled out for special attention when he was not even corrupted? What did Curze know that made him willingly accept death?


Night Haunter received special attention because he was special. He and his Legion didn't flee to the Eye after the fall of Horus but remained active in the Imperium. It was necessary to break his Legion further and the quickest way to do that was to assassinate Night Haunter. Additionally, since the assassinations started before the Heresy even began it can be seen as an attempt to dispose of a troublesome Primarch quietly that simply got carried out over a longer period of time.

Night Haunter accepted his death because he knew two things. 1) Martyrdom is a powerful act. By accepting a meaningful death he cemented his legacy in the eyes of his sons and the Imperium. Better to go out in a blaze of light than slowly gutter away into madness. 2) His death would vindicate his beliefs. Everything the Night Haunter had ever done in service to the Emperor was reflected back in what the Emperor was doing to him. He showed that the Emperor, for all his high minded rhetoric, was no different from himself: a murderous tyrant on a throne of corpses.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> 1) The Emperor did not have the power to expunge the influence of the Gods from Horus, they willingly withdrew it. Why is a bit up in the air but it doesn't seem to have been fear.
> 2) Worship has very little effect on the warp. The Chaos Gods are not fed by worship, they are fed by emotion. The Emperor is not tied to an emotion, because he is not a warp power, and therefore has nothing to gain power from.
> 
> 
> ...


I am going to start with saying that we have polar opposite views on the entire 40k universe. That being said, I will state my opinions on your post and let the matter drop. I do not expect to change your mind, and you probably won't change mine.

1. Did the Chaos gods flee Horus or do it willingly? You claim fear, why would you fear something you are more powerful than? Worship has very little effect in the warp? Than why do the gods demand worship? Why not hide in shadows and have all species dance to their tune by inflicting War, Change, Disease, and Pleasure to an unexpecting Galaxy? Nope, they demand worship. "The Emperor is not fed by Emotion", what is honor, faith, dignity, respect,.... blah blah blah. That is the new god I think he is becoming. Tell me their is no emotion in that, how many have died to defend/advance those emotions?

I will admit I am not up on the Nightlords as much as you may be. But saying "Night Haunter used chaos as a tool" sounds about as sane as how Magnus fell. I have read almost only HH stuff. But I find it hard to believe that a man who thought that best way to make a world compliant through fear has no connection to Chaos. Call me crazy, but his way was worse than the World Eaters way. The World Eaters just killed you. That crazy bastard is Kaiser Sosay (sp).

Curze comitted suicide. Horus was a martyr to Chaos, and where did that get him? Hated by his own (black) legion.

To your last statement, who was Curze vindicated by? Why at that moment did Curze decide to die? He KNEW something, not speculated - KNEW. That is probably the only thing we agree on, however I think he took the coward's way out by killing himself.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Curze's last words kind of blow your theory out of the water there Zooey. 

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

Link: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Konrad_Curze#.UiFpcD9Q1x8

Whereas the Chaos Gods do indeed demand praise, they could do without it. Emotions are what fuel them. All they need is emotion to surrvive and grow more powerful


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> Curze's last words kind of blow your theory out of the water there Zooey.
> 
> "Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."
> 
> ...


Not sure how Curze's last words prove me wrong. That is too abstract to know exactly what he was refering to. I am not familiar with how Curze came to thinking himself guilty and needing punishment. Is that known for sure? Out of all the atrocities he orchestrated I doubt there was a "ok, that was one planet too far to slaughter". If you mean a perceived guilt, as in "The Emperor thinks I am guilty and has sent someone to kill me, he is no better than I am". That's an arguable point. Initialy what the Emperor thought didn't matter to Curze. I would think the Emp. wanted him dead after I5, but Curze didn't roll over and die the way he ultimately did. Why at that point and time did Curze decide to kill himself. If you know fluff that has that in it I would love to read it. 

Zealotry is zealotry. Whether it comes from a Chaos cultist or a Grey Knight. Honor, courage, loyalty, etc etc are all part of what is being thrown into the warp on behalf of the Emperor. AND those emotions, values, or whatever you want to call them are not part of chaos. The Emp. gets all of that. When someone gets truly corrupted they lose all of those higher morals. Kharn no longer attacks because he is brave or has any higher purpose, he attacks because he is rabid and insane.

Now a Grey Knight confronting a Bloodthirster, that is something else entirely. Or you could just put it down to the common serf who truly believes in the Emperor's divinity. That is love, and that too manifests in the warp. Take whatever religion you like in real life, if you think those dedicated to it do not feel emotion for what they believe in... well you are just wrong.

That is just arguing on your premise that worship means nothing to the Chaos gods (which I do not agree with). If all it took was suffering/emotion than there would be no rituals done in a certain way to get a certain outcome. In "First Heretic", Ingethal would have just given the sacrafices and that would have been enough, instead she danced around. Tomes of tanned human flesh would mean nothing, the human is dead - who cares what the book is made out of? Why are there symbols for each chaos god, or numbers for that matter? Why is the number 7 holy to Nurgle? There is no decay in a number. There are plenty of examples of this kind of thing all through the fluff.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Its the emotion from such acts. EMOTION is all there is to the Chaos Gods constant state of being. It is how they become more powerful. With or without worship, emotion is what fuels them. You have emotion in worship. You also have emotion out of worship. Either way, the Chaos Gods basically feed off of it. When Space Marines feel rage when they kill their enemies. That doesn't go to fueling whatever you think the Emperor has become. It fuels Khorne. Blood being shed fuels him. That is just an example. Love, in all likelihood, goes towards Slaanesh if I had to hazard a guess. Emotion doesn't go towards fueling the Emperor. The man isn't a god. He has not become some warp consciousness. He is a powerful immortal psyker, but not a god. 

Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions by the way. They don't go into the warp to fuel the Emperor. The Emperor is not a god. Merely a corpse on the Golden Throne, whose mind is kept shackled to his corpse body by the sacrifice of 1,000 psykers each day. He was certainly a powerful Psyker. THE most powerful human psyker. But he is no god.

As for Curze, its in his quote. "Death is nothing compared to vindication." He turned traitor because he wanted to prove that the Emperor was no better than Curze was. In letting M'Shen kill him, he felt vindicated in his beliefs. As for why Curze was singled out. Hmm, yeah it can't possibly have anything to do with him having stayed in one spot waiting for the Emperor to send an assassin after him. You'd do the same thing if your target was just sitting in one spot.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> You claim fear, why would you fear something you are more powerful than?


Actually I explicitly dismiss fear for exactly this reason. The Chaos Gods did *not* abandon Horus out of fear because they did *not *fear the Emperor because he is *not* more powerful than them.



> Than why do the gods demand worship?


The Gods don't demand worship actually. They don't even reward it. They demand emotion and they reward service. Worship just serves as a channel for that emotion and service.



> "The Emperor is not fed by Emotion", what is honor, faith, dignity, respect,.... blah blah blah.


DeathJester already covered this but yeah, those aren't emotions. They're ideals, thoughts not feelings.



> That is the new god I think he is becoming.


How is he becoming a Chaos God? How does one do this? Explain to me the process by which a mortal being becomes a creature of sentient emotion.



> But I find it hard to believe that a man who thought that best way to make a world compliant through fear has no connection to Chaos.


And yet this is the very way the Imperium operates in 40k. Fear is the weapon, obedience the goal and Night Haunter was absolutely correct in his belief that fear would achieve compliance.



> Curze comitted suicide. Horus was a martyr to Chaos, and where did that get him? Hated by his own (black) legion.


Horus wasn't martyred, he lost. He fought and he was beaten. Night Haunter didn't commit suicide, he allowed himself to be killed. He sat there as a woman slit his throat because of his ideals. The two acts aren't even remotely similar and so neither is the result of them.



> To your last statement, who was Curze vindicated by?


He was vindicated by the assassin and the Emperor. I honestly don't understand your confusion here. He believed and acted in a certain way, the Emperor said that it was wrong, then the Emperor acted in the same way. This vindicates Night Haunters beliefs.



> however I think he took the coward's way out by killing himself.


Again he didn't kill himself. There is nothing cowardly about dieing for your beliefs. 



Zooey72 said:


> Not sure how Curze's last words prove me wrong. That is too abstract to know exactly what he was refering to.


How is it abstract? He says exactly what he's referring to: the punishing of wrong-doers. He explains how the assassins actions mirror his own. He lays out in black and white why he is allowing her to kill him and you call that "too abstract"...:shok: what more could you possibly want?



> The Emp. gets all of that.


Prove it. Prove that the Emperor gets a single scrap of the emotion or thoughts of those who die in his name. 



> When someone gets truly corrupted they lose all of those higher morals.


Because they lose everything that isn't their driving emotion. They don't just lose their higher morals, they lose their sanity, they lose their ability to do anything that doesn't drive that emotion. The single founding emotion of their God seeps in to every facet of themselves until there is nothing left of them. If the Emperor is a warp God, then why aren't his truest fanatics consumed by his 'emotion'?



> Kharn no longer attacks because he is brave or has any higher purpose, he attacks because he is rabid and insane.


But the pure of heart Blood Angel/Flesh Tearer/Space Wolf, he certainly attacks because he is brave and not through any sort of rapidity or insanity. 



> That is just arguing on your premise that worship means nothing to the Chaos gods (which I do not agree with).


I didn't say it meant nothing, I said it meant little. The Gods are fed by emotion, they don't care where the emotion comes from or why it was created. However worship provides them with a steady food supply, and one they can manipulate easily to other secondary goals. That is why they reward the ritual, because it helps them, not because they need it.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> Its the emotion from such acts. EMOTION is all there is to the Chaos Gods constant state of being. It is how they become more powerful. With or without worship, emotion is what fuels them. You have emotion in worship. You also have emotion out of worship. Either way, the Chaos Gods basically feed off of it. When Space Marines feel rage when they kill their enemies. That doesn't go to fueling whatever you think the Emperor has become. It fuels Khorne. Blood being shed fuels him. That is just an example. Love, in all likelihood, goes towards Slaanesh if I had to hazard a guess. Emotion doesn't go towards fueling the Emperor. The man isn't a god. He has not become some warp consciousness. He is a powerful immortal psyker, but not a god.
> 
> Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions by the way. They don't go into the warp to fuel the Emperor. The Emperor is not a god. Merely a corpse on the Golden Throne, whose mind is kept shackled to his corpse body by the sacrifice of 1,000 psykers each day. He was certainly a powerful Psyker. THE most powerful human psyker. But he is no god.
> 
> As for Curze, its in his quote. "Death is nothing compared to vindication." He turned traitor because he wanted to prove that the Emperor was no better than Curze was. In letting M'Shen kill him, he felt vindicated in his beliefs. As for why Curze was singled out. Hmm, yeah it can't possibly have anything to do with him having stayed in one spot waiting for the Emperor to send an assassin after him. You'd do the same thing if your target was just sitting in one spot.


This will be a quick post, you just made my argument.

*Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions by the way*

Not yet...

Apparently pleasure will not be an emotion for another 20k years? It has to build up in the warp, that is my point.

And in the real world, try telling a Marine that Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions. If you do, I hope you keep your teeth. (text sucks, I am smiling as I am typing this. Not trying to be a jerk).

:grin:

I love the HH and 40k genre. I would like to debate with you, but saying silly things like this:

*Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions by the way. They don't go into the warp to fuel the Emperor. The Emperor is not a god. Merely a corpse on the Golden Throne, whose mind is kept shackled to his corpse body by the sacrifice of 1,000 psykers each day. He was certainly a powerful Psyker. THE most powerful human psyker. But he is no god.*

That is the way you look at it. We are arguing about a fantasy world. Whether you think things like honor and courage are emotions is up to you. Those are real world things we don't have to agree on, but by no means are you right because that is your OPINION.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

An amazing theory Lux and in my *opinion* very plausible. Everyone can b*tch and moan about the subject all they want but it will never change the one true fact, namely; *Everything that has been stated in this topic is an opinion formed by that person's idea of how the fluff should be interpreted. *In other words; there is no right or wrong.

Also, in my opinion, a debate is where people share their different points of view with one another, not merely a contest about who is "right".


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> *Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions by the way*
> 
> Not yet...
> 
> Apparently pleasure will not be an emotion for another 20k years? It has to build up in the warp, that is my point.


Just... what?

Pleasure is an emotion. Things don't change from being a thought to being an emotion that just doesn't make sense. It took time for the amount of emotion in the warp to build up and become a God but the emotion was always there (and indeed the God was always there too). 



> And in the real world, try telling a Marine that Honor, Courage, and Loyalty are not emotions. If you do, I hope you keep your teeth.


Just because Marines have anger problems (hmm... isn't there a god that gives you anger problems?) doesn't mean they're right. Honour is a set of rules you create to govern your behaviour. Rules aren't emotions. Courage is the decision to do something known to be risky or frightening. Decisions aren't emotions.



> We are arguing about a fantasy world. Whether you think things like honor and courage are emotions is up to you. Those are real world things we don't have to agree on,


That's not really true. Emotions are real world things, that means there are real world definitions of what they are. Trying to argue that those definitions are just opinions and that contradicting them is equally valid is like trying to say that gravity is just an opinion and therefore anybody who wants to can fly in 40k. It's not logical and it's not valid. If you want to offer an argument as to why the definition of emotions doesn't matter in 40k then that's fine but you can't just dismiss the definition as 'opinion'. 



> by no means are you right because that is your OPINION.


Stating that someone's position is just their opinion is obvious and not constructive. If you want to be constructive you need to show why their opinion is faulty. People aren't automatically right in their opinions but just because it's an opinion doesn't automatically make it wrong either.

Plus, it's not just an opinion. It's an opinion backed by fluff. The warp reflects emotions, that's established in 40k fluff. The Gods are pools of sentient emotion, that's established in 40k fluff. Emotion is a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others, that's established in the real world. If you want to show that your opinion is equally valid then you need to show that it's equally supported.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Concepts like honour and courage are always fueled by emotion though.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

'Fueled by' sure but loads of things are fueled by emotion (indeed just about anything you or I will ever do is), that doesn't make them emotions themselves.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

One thing to add to this thread and the theory I presented, about the Emperor purposely holding himself in a near death state.



The book Vulkan Lives! Has stated and shown quite clearly that Vulkan's unique aspect of the Emperor that he inherited is that he is a perpetual, he is absolutely immortal. He is torn in half, incinerated, cut to pieces, dismembered, etc. Yet he fully regenerates every time.

Furthermore vulkan states clearly that his gift of being a perpetual with absolute immortality, regeneration, is the exact same as his Father the Emperor.

Which means that the Emperor is purposely using the Golden Throne machine to prevent himself from regenerating.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> One thing to add to this thread and the theory I presented, about the Emperor purposely holding himself in a near death state.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or the Golden Throne is preventing him from doing so, adding yet another example to the irony of the Imperium.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well the Emperor instructed Dorn to insert him into it, the Emperor either did not know the throne would have this effect upon him or he knew it would have this effect on him and wanted to be in the near death state he is in.

OR 

It could be that we will find out that part of history was a lie, and that the Emperor was forcefully inserted into the throne to make sure that power of his was inhibited, someone else wanted to rule...

It also has me thinking that all the primarchs have regeneration beyond what we know, I truly think Guilliman is healing in stasis. Even if he did "die", I think he is regenerating from death/near death to a fully living state and it is the stasis that is slowing it down.

Furthermore I also believe that Curze is still alive, has the potential to be alive. Yes he was beheaded, yet the book makes it very clear he was wearing several artifacts on him when it happened. Furthermore the Eldar had an extreme interest in Curze and his crown which makes me think his crown (the stone in it to be precise) is a soul stone. It warded off the effects of chaos, and made his mind sane when wearing it.

Ferus did die yes, yet I feel he would have potentially regenerated if not for other effects happening at that time. For example that vortex in reality opening could have been his soul attempting to re-enter his body, yet the daemons prevented him from doing so and dragged him away.

What I'm trying to say here is that all the primarchs may have been "perpetuals" or "perpetual like" to a degree, as John and Oll stated each pertuals "perpetuality" is unique. What we do know is that Vulkan's perpetuality is identical to that of the Emperos, IE absolute regeneration/immortality from anything.

But that doesn't mean the other primarchs were not immortal/perpetual like as well, they all had circumstances that prevented us from seeing what would have happened to them.

Overall I feel Black Library is setting up the possibility and outcome of the Emperor being able to heal/regenerate, as well as the outcome/possibility that all the primarchs are still alive/could return.

They could even be setting up a 50k time line for their products


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> Well the Emperor instructed Dorn to insert him into it, the Emperor either did not know the throne would have this effect upon him or he knew it would have this effect on him and wanted to be in the near death state he is in.
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


And just like that, you've lost me again.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And just like that, you've lost me again.


Are we speaking different languages?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> Are we speaking different languages?


Yes.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> And just like that, you've lost me again.


I think he's trying to say that all the primarchs are immortal and will return. 

He's also bringing up the idea that the story we know may not be the truth. Which is plausible.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I think he's trying to say that all the primarchs are immortal and will return.
> 
> He's also bringing up the idea that the story we know may not be the truth. Which is plausible.


^This

And that either the emperor purposely put himself into the golden throne so he wouldnt regenerate, or someone else entered gim during his crippled state against his will.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I think he's trying to say that all the primarchs are immortal and will return.
> 
> He's also bringing up the idea that the story we know may not be the truth. Which is plausible.


Thanks Sherlock, but like Lux, you also missed what I meant. Look to Protoss119 for further guidance


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## Theangryone (Sep 21, 2013)

Just my two cents here, 

The Emperor is not fed through emotion as the Chaos Gods are, he is fed through humanities' psychic energy in the form of faith. Much of what has been theorized here smacks of the old Starchild fluff. 

All of the Primarchs were made aware of the warp and that which lived in it by thy Emperor, although he may not not have imparted knowledge of the Gods themselves. We see this in multiple pieces of fluff where the Primarchs have prior knowledge of demons and the warp.

The Emperor may be the most powerful psycher to have lived but he was not all powerful and limits to that which he could do. He told Perturabo prior to his embarkation on the Crusade that his future sight was becoming clouded and obscured by the warp. His treatment of Angron was different from the other Primarchs because when found he was a failure and wanting to die. He was also the only Primarch that failed to conquer his home world and to also refuse the Emperor and his vision by choosing to stay and die with his slave rebellion. When he was found the Nails had already altered his brain to the extent that their removal was not possible without killing him.

As for the Primarchs that rebelled being the most loyal, I do not buy it. The Primarchs that turned were the ones with the biggest personality flaws that mirrored the Chaos gods themselves.

Another sticking point in the theory presented is that the Emperor intended the Golden Throne for Magnus not himself. He only interred himself on it to preserve his own life and to keep the web way sealed. Magnus screwed the pooch when he allowed himself to both destroy all the wards on the webway, thus distracting the Emperor with a demonic invasion and facilitating the infant Primarchs abduction by the warp. 

It was also stated that once the Galaxy was pacified that he would have no use for the Primarchs and something would have had to have been done with them. In Deliverance Lost, Corax is housed in one of twenty apartments below the Palace that were made to accommodate the size of the Primarchs. I would infer that with the security measures and the number of apartments the Emperor may have intended to lock them away if need be.

Anyway, enough wall of text for my first post on here. Cheers


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