# SB/PF + Characteristic Tests



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Can't find my Skaven book at the moment, but don't these two fail their Characteristic test automatically?

If so - does that mean that spells such as Warrior Nurgles Quagmire and the notorious Purple Sun instagib Skrolk/Grey Seer/etc


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Can't find my Skaven book at the moment, but don't these two fail their Characteristic test automatically?
> 
> If so - does that mean that spells such as Warrior Nurgles Quagmire and the notorious Purple Sun instagib Skrolk/Grey Seer/etc


It doesn't mention "auto-fails Characteristics tests" anymore, I think that was from last edition. As it's a mount, you use the best I, which is I5 for both Plague Priest and Seer. For Strength Tests, it would use the highest, so Str. 5 for both. I don't know about the Nurgle spell, but if it's a characteristics test, it would be the same.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Since it's a mount with a distinct profile that functions like a monster, my understanding of the wording in the rulebook is that you'd roll for it separately from the Grey Seer/Plague Priest. So the rider would be unaffected using their initiative, but the mount would use its-- and if it doesn't have an I value, then it would automatically fail. You'd end up removing the bell/furnace, if you lose it, and place the character in the unit that was pushing it on foot. It's no different than, say, a character riding a dragon or something, and the dragon dying for whatever reason. The character doesn't go with it; it just ends up on foot.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, templates hit the individual parts of a monster/chariot now... but unless the non-character crew are 'seperate' then they are a part of the bell/furnace and you can use the highest of their stats for the test. By seperate I mean like a steg rather then like a chariot- on a steg you can kill off the skink crew (so a purple sun would hit all the crew and the steg seperately) while on a chariot the crew are a part of the machine but have split profiles so you know their attacks (the way to tell is that on the profile a split crew will have wounds).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Both the Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace state they are a single model and use the combined Characteristic of the Crew and Machine. Making the Screaming Bell I4 and Plague Furnace I3. They don't auto-fail Characteristic tests like War Machines do. 

Aramoro


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Even if they were "separate", the characteristics test part on P10 says you take it on the highest I... god knows what you're actually meant to believe.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If they were separate then they would auto fail for having a - Characteristic for that model. The Grey Seer is a separate model form the Bell so it doesn't use the Grey Seers stats for tests. But luckily the Army Book has rules for it. 

Aramoro


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> If they were separate then they would auto fail for having a - Characteristic for that model. The Grey Seer is a separate model form the Bell so it doesn't use the Grey Seers stats for tests. But luckily the Army Book has rules for it.
> 
> Aramoro


Niether model has a (-) for either Strength or Initiative though anyway. The mounts combined profiles both have I values for the crew.

Now, this has come up a few times, where does it say that the rider is a separate model from the mount? It says that it's one model on P105. The Characteristics thing says use the highest for the model on P10. I can understand that they're seperate for hits/wounding, but I haven't seen anything stopping the characteristics being traded (like LD for instance). I understand you might well be right, but I've seen this argument come up before, and I've never really seen it resolved properly.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I had always placed them in a category akin to Monsters and Chariots but I can see they are not. So I guess yes they will use the stats of the 'rider'.

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

The bell/furnce must folow the monster rules (just like chariots do)... otherwise you get on a very slippery slope. Non-monster mounts never get hit by shooting, cannot be targetted in combat and cannot outlive their riders... Im sure the skaven army book will have some rules to get round at least some of that but its a slippery slope you just dont want to be on.

So anytime the model is hit by a template the rider and bell/furnace are treated as seperate entities that are each hit... however, if the characteristic test is not template based then all monsters and riders are treated as a normal mount and rider and so take the best stat available. Which also leads to some interesting results. Like if you cast the DoC nurlge spell shrivelling pox at a dragon and rider then you need to pass a T test with teh dragons T or take D6 wounds... but those wounds would presumably be allocated as per shooting. There are no rules for the allocation but the spell only targets a 'model' which includes both rider and mount, and isnt a template, so hits both as one (not individually).


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> The bell/furnce must folow the monster rules (just like chariots do)... otherwise you get on a very slippery slope. Non-monster mounts never get hit by shooting, cannot be targetted in combat and cannot outlive their riders... Im sure the skaven army book will have some rules to get round at least some of that but its a slippery slope you just dont want to be on.
> 
> So anytime the model is hit by a template the rider and bell/furnace are treated as seperate entities that are each hit... however, if the characteristic test is not template based then all monsters and riders are treated as a normal mount and rider and so take the best stat available. Which also leads to some interesting results. Like if you cast the DoC nurlge spell shrivelling pox at a dragon and rider then you need to pass a T test with teh dragons T or take D6 wounds... but those wounds would presumably be allocated as per shooting. There are no rules for the allocation but the spell only targets a 'model' which includes both rider and mount, and isnt a template, so hits both as one (not individually).


Yes, the bell is treated as a monster mount, though because it has a combined profile like a chariot, it would still be able to use it's crews I of 4 even if treated completely separately from the caster. As in, if the Seer died, it would still test on I4, correct?

Ok, now, second thing, like I said, on page 10 it says that combined models use the highest on the models stats for a characteristics test. Page 105 says if a monstrous mount is hit by a template, both monster and rider are hit. Now, from my reading of that, monster (the bell in this case) would be hit, but would still use the higher statistic of the model (the rider in this case), and vice-versa, rather than having to use it's own characteristics for the test.

I know you might well be right, I'm still learning the rules for 8th, but why would they be unable to use each others stats as a single model?


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