# Grey Knight vs Eldar - Trust not in their appearance



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

With all the hype about to impending doom wrought by the dreaded Wraithknight the actual nitty gritty of the new Codex: Eldar is a little hard to divine.

From what I have seen so far it looks like the Grey Knights are still faring pretty well against this latest codex. 

The loss of the Runes of Warding and the seemingly greater reliance on Psykers for the Eldar mean the Greys are better equipped to deal with them now.

Our many S7 psycannon stand us in good stead against the revitalised Wraithguard too it seems or are there further surprises in the alien bag of tricks ?
Any one got "The Answer" to Team Wraith ?
Are there more dangerous combinations lurking in the new Codex?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Wraithknight? Strength 10 Daemonhammers are still Force Weapons, as far as I know.

Str5 Storm Bolter fire still tears through Eldar infantry, who with Eldar's short weapon ranges can't 'dance' out of range with Battle Focus - they can usually hover at the edge of Rapid Fire, darting in to use their guns and then Fleet-Running away again, but GK don't suffer this as they shoot to full effect at the full 24". You might have to move your Psycannons a little more often but that's about it.

Midnight


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Agreed. My concern MIGHT be in flier strength; the Crimson Hunter is an amazing flier for anti tank. On the other hand, GK have never been an armor-heavy army, therefore it might be a bit of a non issue. I'd be concerned about Shuriken Cannons; those guns will have enough access to bladestorm to make a mess of power armor here and there. But I think the Wraith issue isn't that big a deal; Psycannons will still wreck everything, force weapons (and the Dreadknight) will own the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.

(Ironically, the Dreadknight vs Wraithknight is pretty much exactly the fluff the DK was made for. )


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Xabre said:


> Agreed. My concern MIGHT be in flier strength; the Crimson Hunter is an amazing flier for anti tank. On the other hand, GK have never been an armor-heavy army, therefore it might be a bit of a non issue. I'd be concerned about Shuriken Cannons; those guns will have enough access to bladestorm to make a mess of power armor here and there. But I think the Wraith issue isn't that big a deal; Psycannons will still wreck everything, force weapons (and the Dreadknight) will own the Wraithlord and Wraithknight.
> 
> (Ironically, the Dreadknight vs Wraithknight is pretty much exactly the fluff the DK was made for. )


Pretty true, but remember the Crimson Hunter's as survivable as a Raider when you shoot it with a Quad-Gun, and that's only if it Evades. Psycannons will, of course, still take down anything Eldar can offer (just like they take down... well, name another army, you fill in the gap).

Midnight


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

The harshest thing Eldar have against GK is Scatter Laser Wave Serpents- being able to sit at 36" and chuck out 4 S6 and D6+1 S7 ignores cover shots really hurts an army with 24" range.

That said, with good DSing you can still get around this. If Eldar are really prevalent in the meta then Psyflemen may see a comeback as an answer to Mechdar. Also IG/Necron Allies, but they're great regardless.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I would worry about wraiths with D-Flamers. T:6 3+ savers can be very difficult to deal with in certain situations. Teh eldar are a good army, are they overwhelming? No.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm really surprised that the large number of S6 weapons and T6 troops isn't seen as more of a threat, despite the short range of many of the weapons.

There so seem to be plenty of longer range weapons for support.

I agree the Wrathknight is vulnerable to Daemonhammers but do we have the ability to actually get into combat and survive long enough to have them do their damage ?

Surely shooting with S7 and S8 is the key but are can we get enough shots ?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Can you get enough shots? You're the motherfucking Grey Knights, you're _designed_ to have enough shots. Wraith-things go down to Prescience'd Psybolts as much as anything else - you wound on 5s, but you're rolling 20 dice so you get 5s. Psycannons are still as amazing as ever, and are the answer to anything. As long as you keep your vehicles rather than make the silly transition to all-foot that people are advocating nowadays, you'll be ok (if you can get to the midfield, you can win - if you let yourself get penned into your deployment zone, the superior range and mobility of the Eldar will pummel you. Just like the fluff really, which is why I like the Eldar Codex so much).

Midnight


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Sure we are still putting out the shots but with the higher toughness those shots aren't hitting as hard as normal.

Conversely the S6+ return fire is going to be hitting us harder than normal. For every 5+ we are rolling we'll also be rolling 2- armour saves.


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

I think you will see Eldar players using batteries of vibro cannons definatly & probably WW with SL & BL or EML just for the laser lock. The thing is they will sit just out of your range & throw lots of shots at your lower amounts of troops & wear you down by sheer die rolls...
Well thats what I would do....

I think that the rifleman dreds would be an answer to worry the eldar at longer ranges & having IG allies, loading up on autocannons


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

It depends on what spells the Eldar player is bringing to the table.

While a psycannon can rend a wraithknight, give him a 4+ invul and possibly fortune and he won't be going anywhere. The suncannon will eat most any Marine on the table and has enough blast shots (3) to wipe most squads. Yes the blasts are twin linked because of the Scatter Laser. Of course if you somehow catch the Wraithtknight then yes a Force weapon will ruin its day.

Wraithguard also have a similar utility, if you can give them a reliable cover save, say with Shrouding and Stealth. Combine with Fortune or Protect and all your shots will bounce off them every turn. A 2+ cover save with re-rolls will get them across the table in a hurry.

Of course if the Eldar player does not support his various units then its a straight up slug fest and I can see the Greyknights winning that very easy.

Really though one of the things you have to watch for would be a Seer Council on bikes. Even without a Farseer that 2+ armor save they can get combined with a 4+ invul will allow them to tear through anything the grey knights have. If they have a Autarch with a Banshee mask then even Halberd knights will be going last as they eat through your models.

Mindstrike?? Missiles will handle the Warlocks really fast though, although I think the Grey knights only get that on a Stormraven.

Its all very subjective though and hard to say. I play against Grey Knights often and my best asset are my D-Cannons and Dark Reapers as they typically remove 1 squad a turn, every turn. Although not everyone play with those.

Here is a thought exercise for you, since your posts are concerning the wraith units lets take a squad of Wraithguard, 10 of them in fact. Throw in Eldrad, mix in a Spirit Seer. Now without Tau or DE allies this unit can get..

Majority T6
4+ invul on every model
2+ armor save
Re-rolls for all saves/Deny the Witch
Fearless
2+ Deny the Witch
Full BS on Overwatch
Ignore Cover
Scoring
Re-rolls to hit for Shooting and CC

If the stars align and they get all these abilities what do the Greyknights have that can crack that? If you throw in Tau it gets worse as they would have Hit and Run, Stealth and Shrouding among other things. The above units costs less than 600 points, you can bring it down below 500 if you replace Eldrad with a regular Farseer (hes not needed but he is cool). 

If you were to throw in DE allies you can get a number of re-rollable 2+ invul saves along with many AP 2 attacks that cause ID. Not to mention Offensive and Defensive grenades.

While you cannot spam such a unit it can walk across the table and beeline for a good objective messing up anything it comes into contact with be it Draigo, a Dreadknight, or Purifiers. 

So against most Grey Knight shooting @ Str 5, you will need 5's to wound and then they get a 2+ save that re-rolls. Rending with a Psycannon? 4+ save with re-rolls. Its a tough nut to crack, and while they are mediocre in CC (only Str 5) without some allies they are also a gigantic tarpit able to hold up even a dedicated large Paladin CC unit.

EDit: Creon also has a excellent point about the AP 2 flamers. While you can give the whole unit Flamer sit gets expensive in a hurry.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Ragewind said:


> While a psycannon can rend a wraithknight, give him a 4+ invul and possibly fortune and he won't be going anywhere. The suncannon will eat most any Marine on the table and has enough blast shots (3) to wipe most squads. Yes the blasts are twin linked because of the Scatter Laser. Of course if you somehow catch the Wraithtknight then yes a Force weapon will ruin its day.


Yeah, I have to agree that Force Weapons are the best way to trump Wraithknights, especially Dreadknights. Even on our infantry, "lol I roll 6" is still pretty good; it's how we beat Nids, and I don't see why it can't work here.



Ragewind said:


> Wraithguard also have a similar utility, if you can give them a reliable cover save, say with Shrouding and Stealth. Combine with Fortune or Protect and all your shots will bounce off them every turn. A 2+ cover save with re-rolls will get them across the table in a hurry.


Again, you need to beat them in CC. This makes D-Scythes potentially quite problematic though.



Ragewind said:


> Really though one of the things you have to watch for would be a Seer Council on bikes. Even without a Farseer that 2+ armor save they can get combined with a 4+ invul will allow them to tear through anything the grey knights have. If they have a Autarch with a Banshee mask then even Halberd knights will be going last as they eat through your models.


Seer Councils could be a problem, although I think Dreadknights again kinda trump them here, even with fortune. That said, not every GK list brings Dreadknights, but if these units become a real concern within the meta then I can easily see their use rise even further than it already did after 6E dropped.

Solitaires only kill a couple of MEQ on the charge anyways, and then he's only got T4 4++ to protect him against Force Weapons- he's only going to kill a squad that's already dead anyways. Not as scary as the Seer Council, at any rate.



Ragewind said:


> Mindstrike?? Missiles will handle the Warlocks really fast though, although I think the Grey knights only get that on a Stormraven.


This is correct, although I'm going to point out one thing-

Mindstrike absolutely sucks against Farseers. Warp Charge is generated every turn, and considering that the Farseer only casts stuff on his own turn, he is literally impervious to Psy-Shock due to his Ghosthelm- He just expends a Warp Charge that he would never have used in the first place.



Ragewind said:


> Its all very subjective though and hard to say. I play against Grey Knights often and my best asset are my D-Cannons and Dark Reapers as they typically remove 1 squad a turn, every turn. Although not everyone play with those.


The best way to beat GK is to dance at 30.1" away and shoot them whilst they lament their 24" guns. For Eldar, this means that stuff like Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, Vypers, War Walkers, hell, anything that brings a Scatter Laser is key to beating GK. Dark Reapers are OK here, but are daaaaamn expensive. Tau or DE allies help as well.



Ragewind said:


> Here is a thought exercise for you, since your posts are concerning the wraith units lets take a squad of Wraithguard, 10 of them in fact. Throw in Eldrad, mix in a Spirit Seer. Now without Tau or DE allies this unit can get..
> 
> Majority T6
> 4+ invul on every model
> ...


You ignore that unit because it's slow, expensive, short ranged, and can only take one objective. You kill the rest of the army.

Is it armed with wraithcannons or D-Scythes? If the former you can actually kill it pretty handily in assault as well.

You're also highly dependent on the powers you get, so you really need the stars to align in order to get those combos. Why offer up a combo as difficult to kill when it's ludicrously difficult to pull off?

EDIT:

What I think is funnier is 10 Wraithblades+Karandras+Spiritseer.

They infiltrate with Karandras. Karandras gives them Stealth. Spiritseer gives them Shrouded, and one other Warlock power- +1S, +1WS/+1I, +1 to armour saves, dropping enemy leadership, etc.

You're then giving your opponent 1 turn to either kill or mitigate your unit, and then you charge. Karandras can tank with 2+ armour if need be. You need a lot of plasma to deal with that lol.

This obviously isn't a top level competitive idea, but if you want an Eldar deathstar, then I think this one is pretty good, mostly due to consistency (it doesn't require more than one psychic power to operate).


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