# A Thousand Sons - Marines too powerful?



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I think im in the minority here when i dont list A Thousand Sons as one of the best novels of the HH Series. While i think it was a good book and provided good insight into the legion and of course Nikea and the burning of Prospero there was one thing that brought it down for me.

And that would be just how powerful they made the abilities of the Thousand Sons astartes. I realise they were wielding these powers unchecked and some even paid the price for this, but does no one else think it was a little bit too much at times. Some of them literally felt liek they were on the level of the Primarchs as they killed Space Wolves and Custodes with ease. I know alot of it was shown from the perspective of the captains and therefore the more powerful psykers, but the Custodes are meant to be the elite, best of the best, yet they brushed aside most of them like they were mere guardsman. The Space Wolves themselves take a massive amount of casualties from lone individuals. Flash-boiling several marines blood at once or de-oxygenating their blood in an instant.

Even if this is all from the end when they are finally letting loose as much as they want, even earlier on when fighting alongside the Wolves and trying to keep their powers in check they still seem to be using a rather heavy amount of power.

I dunno. Like i said i realise it was showing them unrestrained and alot of it was from the Captains and therefore very poweful psykers, but it still just rubbed me a little at just how powerful they were.


----------



## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

they are that good in table top they just rape marines. but i could see them being crazy powerful in a book.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

They were all inherantly powerful psykers upon being recruited, then go through decades of training to harness the abilities, during which time they link their psyches to demons of the warp. At the start of the Heresy they were finally being overwhelmed by the powers of the warp, even if they didn't know it. They were tricked into completely opening themselves to the warp, and paid the consequences. 

I think their portrayal as monster psykers fitted very well into the story of their fall from the Emperor's grace.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm inclined to agree with Khorne's Fist. Given that the epic battle upon Prospero was a defining moment for both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, both sides had to fight in a no-holds-barred manner. Everything was poured into the combat, the powers of the warp taking advantage of the Sons and their unknowing surrender to Tzeentch. 

This was not only a pivotal moment for these two legions, but huge for the Ruinous Powers as well. So much stood to be gained or lost, it would make sense for the daemons and other powers to also use as much energy as they could (through the familiars, though I forgot what they were called) hence further empowering the Sons.

I see that battle as the pinnacle of their sorcery, nothing they will do (at least for the vast majority) will ever live up to their actions on Prospero.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Same as Khorne's Fist and Boc. The Thousand Sons had gone through so much training to master their sorcerous powers and the power of the Warp was amplifying them even further, and they were letting loose without any restraint to their power.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But virtually no one since has seemed to have displayed this level of power. If this is what they gods can unleash why aren't they doing it all the time with all their more gifted followers. In all the black crusades or other chaos incursions there hasnt been a mentione of psycic powers of this magnitude being unleashed on a single foe. They did all this to a force with a Primarch at its head, whats stopping them against the now Primarchless armies


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Actually read the responses


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Remember Angel of Blood, most of the thousand sons who displayed that power were immensly powerful psyker in their own right. We are talking the upper levels of psyker, Zeta, Delta, Epsilon, and Gamma with a few likely even showing promise as Beta level psykers.

Marines who show potential as psykers are generally Epsilon or Zeta due to the enhancements that come from being a space marine. (The conditioning and mental strengthening help to increase whatever the person would have been capable of being.)


The Thousand Sons were more than just marines however, they were the genetic sons of Magnus the Red, an individual who's powers were second only to the Emperor and gods. Marines get inherent abilities, likes, dislikes, and talents from their primarch; for the Thousand Sons it is an increase in psychic power.


As Khorne's Fist and Boc have said, the Thousand Sons were letting loose with everything they had, opening themselves up fully to their powers. These were marines who, thanks just to who they come from, were monstrously powerful from the start and this was only furthered by training, knowledge, and conditioning. I think the power that they displayed in A Thousand Sons was anything but to powerful, it just goes to show you how powerful they were and why the forces of chaos and the traitors ended up going to the lengths that they did to make sure things ended up the way they did.

Can you imagine if Horus had failed to goad Russ into sacking Prospero and securing the Thousand Sons as an ally to the traitors?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Boc said:


> Actually read the responses


I have, i see where they are coming from, but does anyone have any instances of when chaos have unleashed such powers since then


----------



## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't think Magnus would have thrown his lot in with the Horus. Even if they were cast from the Emperors grace, they would have fought Horus. When he found out his brother was a traitor, the first thing he tried to do was warn his father. If he hadn't destroyed the barriers guarding Terra's webway portal he may not have given up on his legion.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

There are hints of it! In the first Word Bearer book Dark Apostle a tower built for the Dark Gods swallows an entire ship at their Apostles command and sends it into the Warp.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> does anyone have any instances of when chaos have unleashed such powers since then


Even in the 40k universe, it would be very difficult to find such a concentration of superhumanly powerful psykers(12,000 IIRC) as the TS were at the time. However, none of these compare to the power of a Changer of Ways, and they are (relatively) common, as well as nurgle or slaanesh greater demons. 

There's also the Alpha twins. So, chaos uses massively powerful psykers all the time, just not in the concentration as on Prospero.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> but does anyone have any instances of when chaos have unleashed such powers since then


There will have been occasions where such concentrated power has been unleashed since the Burning of Prospero. But as others have said, you really have to take into account just how powerful the Thousand Sons were, an entire Astartes Legion, a large proportion of which had manifested immense powers honed by decades of training and attuned via powerful daemonic entities. Led by a being so powerful he may well have even surpassed the Emperor of Mankind in certain aspects. 

No doubt such feats of sorcerous power have been achieved since (likely during notable Black Crusades and the such), but not very often. But thats no wonder considering the sheer amount of power and potential that was gathered on Prospero during the Burning. 



gauntsghost025 said:


> I don't think Magnus would have thrown his lot in with the Horus.


Umm.. He did... Magnus the Red joined Horus and elements of the Thousand Sons are present during the Siege of Terra.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Also remember that the thousand sons were widely considered on of the most dangerous legions around, despite being one of the smallest, it makes sense that they are also the most powerful astartes. It also helps to illustrate the tragady of the rubric.

Since nikea the imperium is against massed psykers as they are inherently corrupted, a nessacary evil, but the imperium is loath to deploy such a force, the risk to warp rifts is to high


----------



## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Some of these most devastated acts of psychic attacks came from higher ranked inviduals. They were also defending their home against invader, so they must have gained alot more inner strenght of seeing this devastation happen to their homeworld. They might have used similar powers before, but in more controlled fashion and with less devastating results. 

They had all the astartes training along with their psychic powers, so they must have been maybe most destructive legion created. But that came with a prize.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah, like i've said i realise its mostly from the perspective of Captains. Just hope we get to see the Wolves laying the some of the smackdowns themselves in Prospero Burns


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

And wolves dying in droves......

Really looking forward to seeing how they mirror each other, possibly adding abit more depth to wolves, beyond the mindless barbaric savage which they are (or at least how they are protrayed in 1k sons).....

Deeper developed enemies are far more fun to kill, Vengence, for the crimson king!


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Yeah I can't wait for it to be seen from their point of view. Epic heroes fighting utter monsters; you know like how things appeared form the view of the Thousand Sons.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye its you could use that to describe the battle from both sides. Like i see it as the Wolves and Russ being the epic heroes along with the Custodes whilst the 1K sons are the monsters. But of course you can say the same if you support the 1K sons


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I support the Thousand Sons all the way. Death to Russ and his dogs!.

But seriously I know what they'll do in _Prospero Burns_. Not only will the Thousand Sons look like mutant witches but they will add new Thousand Sons characters and make them antagonistic purposely to make the readers side with the Space Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake was purposely made a lying, conniving bastard so that the readers would be sympathetic to the Thousand Sons, and they'll do the same thing in _Prospero Burns_, add arrogant and sadistic Thousand Sons to make the Space Wolves more likeable.

That may work for some... but not me. So again, Death to Russ and his dogs!. So bring on _Prospero Burns_, I look forward to seeing exactly how many of the Emperor's pet dogs died on Prospero, and seeing Russ's reaction to his wolf brothers being crushed, literally, by Magnus.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

See i was never really sure, did both of the two brother 'wolves' that accompany Russ get killed or just sparked out?


----------



## Pugnax (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree with Angel of Blood's premise in the opening post. the TS were too powerful as portrayed. Even Magnus was too powerful. I still enjoyed the book though.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Pugnax said:


> I agree with Angel of Blood's premise in the opening post. the TS were too powerful as portrayed. Even Magnus was too powerful. I still enjoyed the book though.


Care to explain why you take that stance?


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Pugnax said:


> I agree with Angel of Blood's premise in the opening post. the TS were too powerful as portrayed. Even Magnus was too powerful. I still enjoyed the book though.


I wouldn't say so, they were powerful pyschers who were using uncontrolled abilities of the warp, and thus many of them commited suicide. The warp powers are very unstabble. This is probably a bad example but I kind of think of them during the battle of prospero as unknowingly being suicide bombers, they used all that power unknowing of the consequences it would bring them, which was mutation and death.


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I support the Thousand Sons all the way. Death to Russ and his dogs!.
> 
> But seriously I know what they'll do in _Prospero Burns_. Not only will the Thousand Sons look like mutant witches but they will add new Thousand Sons characters and make them antagonistic purposely to make the readers side with the Space Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake was purposely made a lying, conniving bastard so that the readers would be sympathetic to the Thousand Sons, and they'll do the same thing in _Prospero Burns_, add arrogant and sadistic Thousand Sons to make the Space Wolves more likeable.
> 
> That may work for some... but not me. So again, Death to Russ and his dogs!. So bring on _Prospero Burns_, I look forward to seeing exactly how many of the Emperor's pet dogs died on Prospero, and seeing Russ's reaction to his wolf brothers being crushed, literally, by Magnus.


I think your under estimating Sir Dan Abnett a little! I bet he blows your god damn mind with Prospero Burns! Lolz! And for the record, I hate the space wolves, but if anyone can make me like them, it's Dan the Man.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> See i was never really sure, did both of the two brother 'wolves' that accompany Russ get killed or just sparked out?


Magnus crushed the black wolf's skull but im not sure about the white wolf, he kicked it pretty hard so it most likely died.



Brother Subtle said:


> I think your under estimating Sir Dan Abnett a little! I bet he blows your god damn mind with Prospero Burns! Lolz! And for the record, I hate the space wolves, but if anyone can make me like them, it's Dan the Man.


Ill enjoy the book I know that, I just don't like who its about. Dan Abnett is good but I prefer other authors to him.

My favourite authors are Aaron Dembski-Bowden, C.L Werner and Graham McNeill in that order, first to third. Abnett is probably my 6th or 7th favourite, and 5th BL author favourite.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> See i was never really sure, did both of the two brother 'wolves' that accompany Russ get killed or just sparked out?





Lord of the Night said:


> Magnus crushed the black wolf's skull but im not sure about the white wolf, he kicked it pretty hard so it most likely died.


Freki and Geri? Im pretty sure they survived the Burning of Prospero, as its said they left for the Eye of Terror alongside Leman Russ.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

See thats what i thought, but they seemed pretty brutally owned by Magnus. New fluff has changed alot of things though. After all Ferrus Manus was never confirmed dead until the collected visions and Heresy books came out. Vulkan is still missing from Istvaan last seen in the middle of a huge explosion, where as he's meant to object to the splitting of the Legions


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

No matter what they do the thousand sons seem arrogant, you sound arrogant if you always know whats right, and the thousand sons always know what right.

The thousand sons like the emperors children are obsessed with their own view of perfection.

The thousand sons is meant to be a tradegy, the betrayal of the best legion of astartes, prospero burns will finally let us know whether the wolves felt any remorse for what they did, or whether they truly are the mindless savages they were portrayed as.


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Ill enjoy the book I know that, I just don't like who its about. Dan Abnett is good but I prefer other authors to him.
> 
> My favourite authors are Aaron Dembski-Bowden, C.L Werner and Graham McNeill in that order, first to third. Abnett is probably my 6th or 7th favourite, and 5th BL author favourite.


i have to disagree. In my opinion. while ADB is a very good up and coming BL writer. He's no Abnett or McNeill. Nothing ive read from ADB comes close to Horus Rising, False Gods, Fulgrim, Legion, Mechanicum, A Thousand Sons, Esienhorn, Storm of Iron, etc etc. (Ultrasmurf series aside, which i didnt like). Abnett and McNeill's writing feels a little more 'mature' than ADB. saying that, i did really enjoy Soul Hunter.



darkreever said:


> Remember Angel of Blood, most of the thousand sons who displayed that power were immensly powerful psyker in their own right. We are talking the upper levels of psyker, Zeta, Delta, Epsilon, and Gamma with a few likely even showing promise as Beta level psykers.
> 
> Marines who show potential as psykers are generally Epsilon or Zeta due to the enhancements that come from being a space marine. (The conditioning and mental strengthening help to increase whatever the person would have been capable of being.)


Are thousand sons marines born psykers? which is then amplified when combined with Magnus' geneseed?

or

Are they non-psyker's who once recieving Magnus' geneseed, become some level of psyker dependent on ability and training.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Normally, I would say that a marine psyker is someone born with potential. However with the Thousand Sons, I would be willing to bet that a large number of non-psykers who received the geneseed of Magnus eventually showed potential.


For the most part though, if you are a space marine who develops psychic powers than you were always going to. The degree to which your powers would have developed, that is up to debate as there is no way of knowing by just how much those powers are enhanced. (Though whatever the amount, it is a significant one.)


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Have to agree with Brother Subtle on this one, I enjoy Mr Dembski-Bowden's work but I'd probably place him in joint 5th place with Nathan Long; after Dan Abnett, Graham McNeill, Sandy Mitchell, and Gav Thorpe in that order.


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Didnt the crazy half daemon tutors help boost their powers?


----------

