# squats ?



## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

ok guys i am sure you have all seen the new pictures of the "space dwarf" jez put up and we have all guessed and debunked the pictures but hear me out, I have an idea!

Riddle me this....
......... what if this new model is only a collecters peice so GW can test the water?? 
I know i will be subscribing as soon as the model is out (something i have put off for a year)
Who else will be subscribing to get the model? I am pretty sure GW Hq read fan sights and i am sure they have taken note of all the "squat" entitled posts that have popped up.
Interesting................


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Deep in the heart of Hive Fleet Retcon, the Hive Mind experienced the transient thoughts of those that infested the preyworlds before it through tendrils of the extended senses of its creatures on the various planetary surfaces. Its contentment at the progress of the consumption of this solar system was interrupted briefly by a faint internal rumbling, an unsettled movement deep within the nethermost bowels of the Hive Fleet's biomass-processing organs, a stirring from some long-consumed biomatter as though something considered thoroughly devoured was attempting to emerge once more into the galaxy at large...

"Sh'yeah, _right_" thought the Hive Mind, as the rumbling subsided and all its attention could once more be directed to the process of absorbing new worlds. What had been consumed would _stay_ consumed.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm more of a mind to Order the subscription for someone else, and take the mini,


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

if im honest the model is not screaming 40k. its screaming roswell, helmet looks straight out of nasa or red dwarf?(pun intended), i also dont think GW would be this obvious about the return of squats/demiurg when you consider the recent rumour black out(very successful too damn it).
Personally im sitting,eating beans,singing cum by yar in the "white dwarf in space " camp


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

No....they will never rise again

THEY ARE DEAD! and shall remain so.......For all that is holy (or unholy) They will REMAIN DEAD!


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> No....they will never rise again
> 
> THEY ARE DEAD! and shall remain so.......For all that is holy (or unholy) They will REMAIN DEAD!


my thoughts exactly


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## darktide (Feb 16, 2009)

It wouldn't be that hard to bring them back. Simply do something like the lost 13th Company of Space Puppies. Lost in the warp where time has no meaning.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

darktide said:


> It wouldn't be that hard to bring them back. Simply do something like the lost 13th Company of Space Puppies. Lost in the warp where time has no meaning.


You Are speaking Blasphimey! there will be no space dwarfs!

REPEAT AFTER ME!

There Will Be, No Space DWARFS!


:ireful2:


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## Gigantor (Jun 21, 2009)

besides wouldn't an army of midgets have an advantage in a game with true line of sight. I'm not giving cover saves to some shrimp that can hide behind the height of a base!! No Midgets in space!!


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I believe this picture sums up this thread:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> You Are speaking Blasphimey! there will be no space dwarfs!
> 
> REPEAT AFTER ME!
> 
> ...


you do realise that that's just flat out wrong, don't you?

the Demiurg already exist in the game background and are playable in BFG, so there ARE space dwarves. besides, you're weirdly over zealous reaction to a trivial concept doesn't really do your side of the arguement any good. perhaps telling us WHY you think there is no room for a dwarf archetype in 40k would be a better start.



Gigantor said:


> besides wouldn't an army of midgets have an advantage in a game with true line of sight. I'm not giving cover saves to some shrimp that can hide behind the height of a base!! No Midgets in space!!


of course that advantage would be negated by the vice versa (they can't see the enemy because just about every peice of terrain from long grass up cuts off their LOS. which is an even bigger disadvantage when you consider that they will be slow due to short legs, and likely to rely on heavy weapons and ordnance.

also, there is no logical reason to assume that they will be significantly shorter than IG, just short enough to be different, and even then there's no reason to assume that they won't stand with their eye line equal (either riding on some platform or having thick armour). no one seems to complain that the 'dwarves' in Warmachine have an unfair advantage due to their height.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> you do realise that that's just flat out wrong, don't you?
> 
> the Demiurg already exist in the game background and are playable in BFG, so there ARE space dwarves. besides, you're weirdly over zealous reaction to a trivial concept doesn't really do your side of the arguement any good. perhaps telling us WHY you think there is no room for a dwarf archetype in 40k would be a better start.


Simple answer to all dwarf problems, and Games workshops favorite to get rid of races..

The Tyranids Ate them.

Ate Them all.

They are not coming back, they are DEAD

There shall be no dwarfs in mini power armor !

:ireful2:


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## Arkaos (Nov 27, 2008)

hehe, to what admiraldick said, theres a joke about midgets and long grass, but its not for here. imho tho.......


squats??


short answer= no
long answer= no way

im just getting the idea here that gw are trying to seperate system 1 (wfb) and system 2 (40k). returning squats just would be highly improbable at best


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

There are space elfs, space halflings, space men, space ogres, space demons, space knights, space damsels... WHY NOT SPACE DWARFS!?!?

( or space RATS for that matter  )


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Simple answer to all dwarf problems, and Games workshops favorite to get rid of races..
> 
> The Tyranids Ate them.
> 
> ...


ok. that didn't actually answer the question of WHY there should be no dwarf archetype in the 40kiverse and thus WHY you dislike them. so i can only assume that you don't actually have a reason for disliking them and are just copying someone elses opinon (unless you are willing to furnish me with evidence to the contrary).



Arkaos said:


> im just getting the idea here that gw are trying to seperate system 1 (wfb) and system 2 (40k). returning squats just would be highly improbable at best


i'm going to have to agree with Inquisitor Einar here, i don't ever recall hearing a GW employee official state that they were trying to 'seperate' the two systems, and the evidence points to the contrary (daemon characters are represented as the same in both), so any suggestion that they are i can only put down to wishful thinking.

in fact, 40k holds a rather unique position in the pantheon of table-top battle games. its not sci-fi and its not fantasy. its not steam-punk and its not space opera. its actually the only example of its genre that i can think of. it is Space Fantasy, that is to say that it has the themes and archetypes of a fantasy setting, but rather than being set in a mythical past its set in a mythical future.

in that regard, to try and remove elements of fantasy from the game would not leave you with much else.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

The only reason most people want to see them, is that we dont have them anymore! like 6yr old kids really. I dont care about em, tbh id rather they made a new race than have a bunch of space squats that got eaten by 'nids!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> in fact, 40k holds a rather unique position in the pantheon of table-top battle games. its not sci-fi and its not fantasy. its not steam-punk and its not space opera. its actually the only example of its genre that i can think of. it is Space Fantasy, that is to say that it has the themes and archetypes of a fantasy setting, but rather than being set in a mythical past its set in a mythical future.


Actually, I know a different example, though it's not as grimdark as 40K.

> Star Wars <

Another similar example, though not set it the far future, but in 'modern day' is the World of Darkness by White Wolf.


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## DeathTyrant (Aug 23, 2009)

World Eater XII said:


> The only reason most people want to see them, is that we dont have them anymore! like 6yr old kids really.


 Most people - maybe, I wouldn't know for sure.

Myself however, as a player of Chaos Dwarves in WHFB (the old Red Army Book compiled from WD is one of my older books still intact ) and of Dwarves in WHQ, I would love to see Squats!


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## jackd334 (May 25, 2009)

*Whats your problem?*



Witch King of Angmar said:


> Simple answer to all dwarf problems, and Games workshops favorite to get rid of races..
> 
> The Tyranids Ate them.
> 
> ...


WTF is ur problem? So u dnt like little people, get over it and stop being so damn harsh. Its a bit sad tbh.. PLUSS, squats arent space dwarfs, the demiurg are. Squats were eaten and probably arent coming out (mind u, imo demiurg wnt either sadly) so before u go rambling on offending people with ur piggishness atleast get your facs right


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> Deep in the heart of Hive Fleet Retcon, the Hive Mind experienced the transient thoughts of those that infested the preyworlds before it through tendrils of the extended senses of its creatures on the various planetary surfaces. Its contentment at the progress of the consumption of this solar system was interrupted briefly by a faint internal rumbling, an unsettled movement deep within the nethermost bowels of the Hive Fleet's biomass-processing organs, a stirring from some long-consumed biomatter as though something considered thoroughly devoured was attempting to emerge once more into the galaxy at large...
> 
> "Sh'yeah, _right_" thought the Hive Mind, as the rumbling subsided and all its attention could once more be directed to the process of absorbing new worlds. What had been consumed would _stay_ consumed.


Woah dude, you should write books. That is actually really good.

On the subject of the Squats:

1) They _are_ dwarves, no one can ignore that. Yes, the Demiurg are dwarves, but how does that stop the Squats being dwarves? I'll tell you: it doesn't.

2) They aren't coming back. They were devoured by Hive Fleet Kraken, completely and utterly. No changing that.

3) They suck, in every respect. I don't want to play, or play against, an army of Space-Dwarf-Power-Armoured-Biker-Gangs. Because that's what the Squats were. We all know that there is too much Power Armour around anyways. Logic tells us that the army would be broken, as it could hide behind anything, as the models would be so small. The only possible way they could fix this is if they make them Vulnerable to Blast Templates, but they can't, because the Squats were wiped out and there bio-mass absorbed and recycled.

4) World Eater is right, people are behaving like 6 year olds. It used to be there and nobody used it, but as soon as it goes, everybody wants it. I wish this could just stop, since this thinking is just stupid. If the army comes back, it would probably be as unpopular as Dark Eldar are now.

I am done.


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## darktide (Feb 16, 2009)

I would like to see them come back because I have an army of them that was my second army. Played my World Eaters while I was building and painting them up and then they go and get supposedly get entirely eaten. 

Folks can say what they want about the bugs getting all of them, however, just going by the fluff on how Warp travel works and such it is possible that more maybe around. 

I'm not asking for anything like a full Codex but maybe just make them an auxillary option for Inquisition or Guard armies.

Either way they go I'm not going to get as worked up some people are.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

admiraldick said:


> ok. that didn't actually answer the question of WHY there should be no dwarf archetype in the 40kiverse....


Space dwarves are already embodied in several space marine legions such as the iron hands. There are minor races that resemble space dwarves already.

If they want space dwarves, why not. But let's skip on the codex. I'll tell you the truth, I don't want to have to fight an army that is literally space midgets it's just not cool. Unless they found great ways to spruce them up like they did with the necrons (space undead) then I don't want to see them.

If they are exactly like fantasy dwarves only in the future I don't want to see them. I am not interested in Fantasy. They need to have a good sci-fi twist and squats simply do not. If I had it my way the ratlings and ogrins would be gone too.


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## Grand High Marine (Sep 26, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> You Are speaking Blasphimey! there will be no space dwarfs!
> 
> REPEAT AFTER ME!
> 
> There Will Be, No Space DWARFS!


Why hating on Space Dwarves in a world where Space Elves and Space Dark Elves exist? 40K _needs_ its Dwarf equivilent.



Eleven said:


> If they are exactly like fantasy dwarves only in the future I don't want to see them. I am not interested in Fantasy. They need to have a good sci-fi twist and squats simply do not. If I had it my way the ratlings and ogrins would be gone too.


I hate to break it to you, dude, but 40K is not science-fiction. Science-Fiction is fiction that could conceivably exist within the world of science. 40K has magic, demons and malevolent gods facing off against crusading heroes, etc etc. The only reason people think it's sci-fi is the presence of technology, but that's not enough. 40K is dark, gothic techno-fantasy, NOT science-fiction.


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## jackd334 (May 25, 2009)

I hate to break it to you said:


> And thats why we love the warhammer world


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Grand High Marine said:


> I hate to break it to you, dude, but 40K is not science-fiction. Science-Fiction is fiction that could conceivably exist within the world of science. 40K has magic, demons and malevolent gods facing off against crusading heroes, etc etc. The only reason people think it's sci-fi is the presence of technology, but that's not enough. 40K is dark, gothic techno-fantasy, NOT science-fiction.


by your absurd definition star wars is not science fiction and neither is star trek. you are being silly my friend.

And 40k is always scientifically based. The daemons from the warp are just aliens living in a parallel dimension. Magic in 40k is psychic abilities that that are born from the evolution of mankind (or otherwise). The chaos gods and the emperor are only "gods" because they are more powerful than everything else around them.

The MAIN reason for no space dwarves is because dwarves are LAME. They are boring. Just take a look at the number of people that play dwarves in WoW as opposed to other races (or any mmo for that matter). The truth is that there are no space dwarves because only 1 in 1000 warhammer players would even consider it (maybe less). And further more, no one wants to play against dwarves because you don't feel epic playing against something so lame. Dwarves (you must admit) have a much less inviting roll in sci-fi than they do in fantasy.


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## WoRLoKKeD (Apr 1, 2008)

For all the people saying the models would be broken c/o TLOS...
Yeah. The models would be small! Just like the Guard are dwarfed by Marines! Oh. Wait.

And as for 'there's no call for dwarves in space', aren't dwarves usually shown as genius engineers and stubborn bastard workers? 
Try telling me a more close combat version of the Tau, high-power, high-tech battlesuits and antigrav gear piloted by stunties wouldn't be cool! Not having a mass tide like Orks would work towards fluff-advantage, too. I refuse to believe that there were no Stunties off-planet in the warp or something when the bugs decided they were hungry.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Actually, I know a different example, though it's not as grimdark as 40K.
> 
> > Star Wars <


i actually didn't mention Star Wars deliberately, because although it has fantastical elements (as with any Sci-Fi) it doesn't actually follow through the themes and archetypes of Fantasy stories. it is better placed in the Space Opera genre along side works like Dune.

its possible to make a better case for Star Trek which has Fantasy character archetypes in it (the orcish Klingons, elven Vulcans (with dark elf cousins, the Romulans), dwarven Ferengi and so on). but the similarities really end there. the story lines rarely move into Fantasy elements.



Cato Sicarius said:


> On the subject of the Squats:
> 
> [...]
> 
> 2) They aren't coming back. They were devoured by Hive Fleet Kraken, completely and utterly. No changing that.


well all i can say is "imagination fail".

i find it a bit sad that you really can't envisage a way that a couple of pargraphs once published in WD can be gotten around. its been done by GW hunderds of times in the past, there is no logical reason why it can't be done again.

as others have pointed out, the most obvious answer would be to say that not all the Squats were on their home worlds when they were destroyed (as is quite likely the case).



Cato Sicarius said:


> 3) They suck, in every respect. I don't want to play, or play against, an army of Space-Dwarf-Power-Armoured-Biker-Gangs. Because that's what the Squats were. We all know that there is too much Power Armour around anyways.


i'm quite glad that you aren't on the design team. otherwise we'd all end up playing chess.

i think that you're quite right to say that you don't want to play against Space-Dwarf-Power-Armoured-Biker-Gangs, because it was a piss poor idea and should not have been continued. nevertheless, that doesn't mean that they weren't salvagable, just that the design team were unethusiastic to do so.

firstly, the 'biker' thing was rubbish. but then so are bikers. thankfully though it was only a segment of the army and it could have been dropped completely without the resultant force being something other than squats.

secondly, they didn't have power armour. they had terminator armour and flak armour. and that mix of high and low armour saves is something that would genuinely make them stand out when compared to other armies.



Cato Sicarius said:


> Logic tells us that the army would be broken, as it could hide behind anything, as the models would be so small. The only possible way they could fix this is if they make them Vulnerable to Blast Templates


see you can come up with an inventive idea if you try hard enough. :grin:

seriously though, that is such a farce of an argument, you know full well there are already plenty of armies that are completely different heights to one another and that doesn't unbalance the game at all. in fact if it did cause a problem of balance it would mean that there was something seriously wrong with the mechanics of the game not the concept of the army. if you can't see them, then they can't see you. simple as that.



Cato Sicarius said:


> 4) World Eater is right, people are behaving like 6 year olds. It used to be there and nobody used it, but as soon as it goes, everybody wants it. I wish this could just stop, since this thinking is just stupid. If the army comes back, it would probably be as unpopular as Dark Eldar are now.


thats an interesting opinion, but i don't think you'll find that it bears out the facts.

plenty of people played Squats when they were still a playable army. then they didn't get up-dated for a long time, so people started to play other armies. that doesn't mean that they didn't want to play Squats though. and eventually some 10 years later they gave some half baked story in Wd about the death of the Squats, i guess so because none of the design team wanted to have to be the one to break the news that they weren't intending on updating them.

also, i don't know why you think it is that those that are in favour of Squats are just being petulant? what evidence do you have for this? have you take a servey?

it seems quite clear to me that the majority of Squat defenders think that they are a good idea and that their presence brings more to the game than it detracts.



darktide said:


> I'm not asking for anything like a full Codex but maybe just make them an auxillary option for Inquisition or Guard armies.


that sounds like quite a cool idea. i wonder what kind of unit it could be?



Eleven said:


> Space dwarves are already embodied in several space marine legions such as the iron hands. There are minor races that resemble space dwarves already.


wel... the smithy elements of the dwarven archetypes have been, but there is a lot more to them than that. not least their height.



Eleven said:


> I'll tell you the truth, I don't want to have to fight an army that is literally space midgets it's just not cool. Unless they found great ways to spruce them up like they did with the necrons (space undead) then I don't want to see them.


i wounld't particularly like to see the introduction of Space Warhammer Fantasy Dwarves, because i don't like their theme either. however, that is not the crux of the matter. the question is 'is it possible to re-introduce Squats in a way that would make them viable, interesting and constructive to the game?'

like others against Squats, your argument seems to rest on 'i can't think of a good way so it must be impossible', even though you can see that other races have made the same transition successfully.



Eleven said:


> If I had it my way the ratlings and ogrins would be gone too.


then whatever you would be left with it would not be 40k.

have you thought about playing AT-43? its rubbish and has an entirely lacklustre backstory, but it sounds like the sort of thing you actually want to play.




Eleven said:


> And 40k is always scientifically based.


i think you may be over stating your case.

but i agree in principle that Grand High Marine's definition of Sci-Fi is wrong.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Question about the Squats.
Black Library is considered cannon correct?
Inguisition war there are some squats. One of the main characters and a few more they meet. 
OK, so there may not be a squat homeworld or some such but there are some still scattered around.
Not enough for a codex but some.
I have two rt squats with a mole mortar used as a counts as mortar team.

On the other hand I don't want them back because the retcon was bad enough, doing it again would be worse.


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

Wasn't there a character in the Ravenor novels that was a nod towards the squats? I seem to remember chuckling to myself about that when i was reading them.

Also, I think they could be a fun addition to 40k, no matter what they do with them. I don't know why everybody dislikes them so much.


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## burad (Sep 20, 2009)

The day we get Squats back will be the day an even smaller highly vocal minority starts clamoring for Chaos Squats. Big Hats in Space.


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## benos (Jan 19, 2009)

in WFB Dwarves have a techno-viking theme.

40k : space wolves have the techno-viking theme.

hence squats as they were will not return (compete with another range) since the white dwarf is the essential short viking of the WFB world (as i remember it) its unlikely the space white dwarf will be heralding the return of the squats.

Ben


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