# Anti air options for Chaos Space Marines



## Jonny B

Is it me or are there not many options for skyfire for CSM?

I can only find flakk missiles available for the Havocs.

Am I missing something?

I keep giving my mate a thumping. He has the Dark Angels. But I'm worried, if he decides to get an aircraft or 2 then the tides could turn!

I have a Heldrake and I seem to remember that can roll for normal BS against flyers and my Bastion has an Icarus lascannon. I would have hoped more troops and elites could have the option of flakk missiles.

I'm now thinking about an Aegis defence line.

Thanks, Jon.


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## dragonkingofthestars

first: go to 1d4 chan, they give tactical advice better then any one (because there a group of someones who pool there knowledge) that said here's what I know (based on reading there page on chaos tactics)

first: you have your hell-zards, or the Helldrakes for AA power, either vector striking or shooting it down.

next you have, flakk missiles as you've noticed. 

then you have forge fiends, sky fire or not it has enough shots that law of Averages says SOMETHING is going to be turned into Swiss cheese.

lastly: i think you have flying demon princes for vector striking or magiking enemy's of the sky's. hope it helps mate.


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## neferhet

I'd say that the true anti-air power of chaos is within the heldrake-powerhouse. You should take 2 of them. 1 with balflamer to vectorstrike flyers and roast troops, another with cannon to pierce and vectorstrike flyers and MCs.
If you want to help them with something still flexible and useful, gofor 2 units of havocs, 1 full Autocannon, 1 full Missile (no flak)
Bastions and icarus are not in my tastes, but they do fine if you don't want to get a 2nd heldarke


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## Iron_Freak220

Everyone so far has pretty much summed it up. The Heldrake is the key. It can Vector Strike a flyer and then, because its weapons count as turret mounted, can fire its Hades Autocannon back into the flyer it just Vector Striked. If it killed the first flyer then it can choose to shoot at a second.


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## Jonny B

Cheers guys. I've read a bit about having 2 or 3 Heldrakes so that may be my best option if/when my mate decides to get himself an aircraft or two.


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## iamtheeviltwin

There is another option, and it applies well against almost all flyers, ignore it as a primary target and focus your firepower on removing the enemy scoring units. If there are no primary targets, then take pop-shots at the flyer. 

With the notable exception of the Helldrake (and even that depends heavily on your army composition), most flyers cannot put out enough firepower each turn to drastically alter the game and it is not too difficult to avoid the primary firing arcs of most flyers.


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## Mossy Toes

I use allied Daemons, who have a bunch of options (Prescience, Soul Grinder, winged Daemon Prince with Lash of Despair).


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## neferhet

Mossy Toes said:


> I use allied Daemons, who have a bunch of options (Prescience, Soul Grinder, winged Daemon Prince with Lash of Despair).


This is godd, but really heavy on points and changing a lot in army composition. The eviltwin has a good point: unless he spams cronair or drakes, just ignore the flyier and pot shot it.


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## Jonny B

I have started to think who I may allie with but will probably wait a while. Daemons are the obvious choice but I really like the look of Orks and heard they may have a new codex out next year so probably hold out for them.

Thanks for all the tips and advice, plenty for me to think about. I would really like a couple more Heldrakes but they will have to wait.

Cheers, Jon.


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## Lord Krungharr

While Heldrakes certainly take care of pretty much any enemy Troop choice with the Baleflamer, their Vector Strike isn't super reliable for AA, though it can work. 

If you activate the Daemon Forge for when you unload the Hades AC on a flyer, that could be really good, of course vs most ground targets the Hades isn't so hot. The Hades only gets 4 shots, and it's BS3, so twinlinked w Daemon Forge means you'll hit like 3 times on average, and vs a Storm Raven, probably not gonna do much beyond a hull point.

I do like the Flakk Havocs. Though very costly, they do have other types of missiles to make them versatile, plus range. Give them Tzeentch and a Skyshield, with a unit of Obliterators (3 assault cannons are their best AA) next to them, and a Forgefiend or Soul Grinder behind them, and that's a really solid and versatile firebase. Just sprinkle your objectives near the Skyshield too so they can blast anyone that gets near them.

A Daemonic Detachment of Tzeentch Herald/Horrors/Soul Grinder would only need to be 305 points, or 335 with a Grimoire of True Names or Portaglyph. Soul Grinders are very good, though a Defiler has superior range if you don't care about the Harvester Cannon and could still be Grimoired.

Actually Bloodletters on a Quad Gun or Icarus Cannon are good too (Interceptor is so nice!)

Lootas rule, but for an Allied Detachment you only get 1 squad, and if they roll crappy for the shots, no good. But you could also take a Dakka Jet in there, I think those could be good vs low AV flyers. But vs those Quantum Necron Shields even an Icarus is 50/50.

I agree however if you pay the flyer tax, that is, ignoring them for sake of killing enemy Troops, it usually pays off. Usually.....


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## Supersonic Banana

Lord Krungharr said:


> But vs those Quantum Necron Shields even an Icarus is 50/50.


Necron fliers don't have quantum shielding so they are Av11.
Personally I find that against armies with only a couple of fliers it's enough just to threaten the fliers enough to limit their movement and a quad gun and some flakk missiles serve that purpose well enough. However against those dreaded Heldrakes other solutions are necessary but even simple things like keeping units in transports to avoid the template.


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## Straken's_Fist

Mossy Toes said:


> I use allied Daemons, who have a bunch of options (Prescience, Soul Grinder, winged Daemon Prince with Lash of Despair).


Indeed, if you take a Tzherald and a Havoc Squad with 4 ordinary missile launchers you can just snap fire krak missiles at fliers. With 8 chances to roll a 6 (with the re-roll of 4 shots) you have a good chance of getting at least 1 hit. And it's at Str8 rather than flakk missiles str7. 
And unlike shelling out for overpriced flakk missiles, the Tzherald and Havocs aren't wasted if the opponent doesn't bring fliers, as you can use them for everything else and they are adept at dealing with pretty much all threats (with krak and frag re-rolling to hit). This combination makes flakk missile obsolete in my opinion. 

Other options if you don't like the Tzherald and Havoc combo is a Heldrakes with the Hades cannon. More effective at str.8 than flakk's str.7. However, obviously you lose the baleflamer which is damn amazing. But hey, you can always take 2...Or take Thousand Sons, the Burning Brand etc if you really want AP3. 

Aegis Quad Gun/Icarus. Maybe a Lord of Change if you are really desperate in a pinch. 

That's about it. But we have decent amount of options.


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