# Black Legion vs Ultramarine Legion



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lets say Guilliman is alive and well, lets say he never splited the Ultra Legion and he continue to rule and defend the Imperium. Abaddon still comes about and leads his Black Crusades. 

So in this could current Abaddon and his entire Black Legion with all their resources take on Guilliman and his Legion after the Heresy? Could Abby prevail where the Word Bearers failed if Guilliman was around and never took apart his Legion? 

Could Abbaddon in his current state take on the Ultra Primarch?

Yes another vs thread... I just wish time travel match of this size could happen.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Black Legion = more experienced Astartes, outnumber Word Bearer Legion in their prime, more vicious, Chaos empowered, and can summon Daemons.

All the experience Guilliman has is in regards to xenos, and humans. You can't really devise a strategy against Daemons.

Yeah....


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm assuming the Ultramarines have Ultramar and all their resources.

Then Guilliman. He's one of the most brilliant and skilled commanders among the Primarchs. It's unknown how many Black Legionaries Abaddon has, but I'm assuming at least 100,000 going by average Legion size.

Overall Guilliman has the tools to take this.


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## Mannimarco (Apr 27, 2011)

We're making a pretty big assumption that a primarch could live to be 10k years old. Buts lets assume he is for the sake of this hypothetical scenario.

Im gonna have to give this one to the Black Legion but really only because of the resources issue. Just where do we draw the line as to what we consider a resource?

Wouldnt mean much for Abaddon to throw a few million cultists from the prayer gangs on the daemon worlds at the Ultras. Do we consider these prayer gangs as resources?

That level of war is going to cause a massive amount of bloodshed which allows us to bring in all kinds of daemonic nastiness, could probably manage to bring a daemon lord or two out. Do we consider the massive amounts of daemons and perhaps even something like Ang'grath to a resource?

Abaddon has his lieutenants, if he says jump they say how high sir! Wouldnt be much for Abaddon to bring along somebody like Lord Zhufor and his forces, whilst not Black Legion per se they are definitely assets Abaddon can call on and act on his will.

We have things like the titans and the support of the Dark Mechanicus, the Ultramarines dont have this level of support unless we also allow them to make use of the Mechanicus.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Gree said:


> I'm assuming the Ultramarines have Ultramar and all their resources.
> 
> Then Guilliman. He's one of the most brilliant and skilled commanders among the Primarchs. It's unknown how many Black Legionaries Abaddon has, but I'm assuming at least 100,000 going by average Legion size.
> 
> Overall Guilliman has the tools to take this.





Mannimarco said:


> We're making a pretty big assumption that a primarch could live to be 10k years old. Buts lets assume he is for the sake of this hypothetical scenario.
> 
> Im gonna have to give this one to the Black Legion but really only because of the resources issue. Just where do we draw the line as to what we consider a resource?
> 
> ...


I like both these points. 

On one side you have, what, 250,000 SMs with the entire Ultrima Sector to call on, a huge Ultramar Fleet and PDF, and all lead by a Primarch of Legend. 

On the other side you have a Chaos empowered swollen First Captain of Luna Wolves leading 100,000 CSMs who in turn are more often than not seasoned vetrens. On top of that Abby has a habit of calling on other Legion Warbands and with Daemons to summon forth from crazy Cultist on many Daemon Worlds. He also has his own Titans and Fleet.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Mannimarco said:


> We're making a pretty big assumption that a primarch could live to be 10k years old. Buts lets assume he is for the sake of this hypothetical scenario.


There was a Salamander from one of Nick Kyme's novels who lived for around 10k years so I'm sure a Primarch essentially can't die of old age.

Abbadon wins by war of attrition, not including even the massive firepower and experience he has or the viciousness of his followers.

The *entirety *of the Imperium barely manage to hold him back each time he leads a crusade.

If it's Abbadon vs the Imperium + Gully? Different story and I'd have to side with the latter.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

On a side note werent the surviving Primarchs there for the first few Black Crusades? Maybe thats when Fulgrim gave Guilliman that bad shaving cut on his neck?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> There was a Salamander from one of Nick Kyme's novels who lived for around 10k years so I'm sure a Primarch essentially can't die of old age.
> 
> Abbadon wins by war of attrition, not including even the massive firepower and experience he has or the viciousness of his followers.
> 
> ...


If we count Abaddon's assets as the warbands that ally with him in the Black Crusades and the various Dark Mechanicus allies then yes he would win.

If we count it as just the Black Legion itself and what the Black Legion has as resources (And not from any other allied warband or Legion) then it's a different story.


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## Mannimarco (Apr 27, 2011)

Dorn was around for one or two as well I believe.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_"...How much larger are the forces in the Eye now, than those that first fled after the failed Siege of Terra?... Abaddon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded..."_ - _Blood Reaver_

Make of that what you will.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

250,000 marines led by one of the greatest strategist the galaxy has ever seen against 100,000 chaos marines lead by one of the greatest hot heads the galaxy has ever seen? Head to head, it wouldn't even be any contest, UM destroy them.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Experience or not the ultras have 2.5x more marines, newer weapons, a better commander and their commander would beat Abbadon in single combat.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Black Legion pwns Ultramarines for breakfast. 

Black Legion is essentially a little bit of both the old and the new. So many chapter's and legion's traits. I find it hard to believe that Abaddon can't find more tactic with his armies, with all the power and different fighting styles he has.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Now I'm going on the assumption that Guilliman is responding to the presence of Abaddon so BL is probably dug in at this point and ready for UM attack. Now we all know Abaddon probably ain't gonna be playin nice, he will have a lot of suprises in store and cheap tricks to give him the upper hand. I'm no expert on Dorn but I assumed he was not killed by another Primarch so unless I'm wrong about that they can be killed by normal means. Even if we take out allies such as mechanicum and just go with whats in the army BL still has powerful socerors that can summon demons and such

All in all I'm sure with Abaddon planning the battle he could pull out a victory, taking some big casulties but a victory.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Let's remember that the UMs are no stranger to fighting Daemons and Cultists after what happened on Calth. If the UMs can come through victorious after such an ambush, with Guilliman stranded in the rapidly disintergrating fleet and having to give his orders unseen through the vox, then I think he could handle the BL. It wouldn't be a walk in the park for anyone, and losses would be heavy on both sides, but I think the UMs would take it.

GFP


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Yes but Calth was executed by Word Bearers, don't wanna sound too biased but I believe Abaddon could pull this off a lot better then they did which by my understanding were not actually doing too bad. Yes they have the experience but BL is a whole different story then WB.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

A space marine is still a space marine, were arguing tactics and close combat ability vs numbers and a primarch. First off all Papa Smurf would royally punk anything in his path save for Abbadon which would be a tough fight but he would still win due to simply being a primarch vs a space marine. Now for the numbers vs skill. The ultras will miss with very few shots and they have 2.5X more bolters. The BL would be better in close combat due to honed blade skill but again it would be 2-3 vs 1, even less after being brought down by bolter fire. There are just too many Marines for the Black Legion to succede here not to mention they are fighting the best tactician primarch, who is in fact still a primarch.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Cowlicker16 said:


> Now I'm going on the assumption that Guilliman is responding to the presence of Abaddon so BL is probably dug in at this point and ready for UM attack. Now we all know Abaddon probably ain't gonna be playin nice, he will have a lot of suprises in store and cheap tricks to give him the upper hand. I'm no expert on Dorn but I assumed he was not killed by another Primarch so unless I'm wrong about that they can be killed by normal means. Even if we take out allies such as mechanicum and just go with whats in the army BL still has powerful socerors that can summon demons and such
> 
> All in all I'm sure with Abaddon planning the battle he could pull out a victory, taking some big casulties but a victory.


According to an outdated source, Dorn died taking the bridge of a battleship during one of the Black Crusades. However it is outdated and a lot of information from the articles has been retconned since.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Can I ask, where is everyone pulling this seemingly random number of 100,000 Astartes for the Black Legion from?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Can I ask, where is everyone pulling this seemingly random number of 100,000 Astartes for the Black Legion from?


I'm also curious. I might be way off but I personally think that their numbers are probably quite a bit bigger. 

The Black Legion, under Abaddon, is, along with the Word Bearers, probably the most organised of the chaos legions. Their policy of accepting marines form other legions into theirs would mean that they can probably replenish or increase their numbers much more quickly and efficiently than others legions could. Also, because of this policy you could argue that the Black Legion is probably one of the most versatile fighting forces in the galaxy. And that's not even counting any of the Lost and the Damned or their daemonic allies. 

Also, if you consider the quote CotE provided, it really makes you think that Abaddon's forces must be massive, considering that Horus commanded half the legions as well as having the support of the majority of the Mechanicum during the Heresy.

I seriously think that while it would be a war of epic proportions, with heavy casualties on both sides, that ultimately Abaddon and the BL would be victorious.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Can I ask, where is everyone pulling this seemingly random number of 100,000 Astartes for the Black Legion from?


My ass. Hehehe. :grin:

There's now way in hell the Black Legion number around 100,000. If the Word Bearers numbered that much and they are stated as being 1/10th the size of the Black Legion, then they would probably be more around the size of 1,000,000.

I would actually say that the only other force that could match his might is Huron Black Heart with the newer information in ADB's novel. But even that is pushing it. They are relatively younger traitor chapters.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I assumed my myself 100,000 if not more. For sure not less. and even then if they number say 150,000 the Black Legion relies heavly on Cultist and Daemons as well. 

Also after all the wars and the fact that WBs are split in 2 (one side in EoT, the other in the Maelstrom) they probaly number less than 100,000 by now. maybe 60,000 to 80,000. Either way now that CotE pointed out the BL maybe have just as many Marines as UMs. In which case puts UMs in a hard uphill battle.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> My ass. Hehehe. :grin:


Better out than in I guess.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> My ass. Hehehe. :grin:
> 
> There's now way in hell the Black Legion number around 100,000. If the Word Bearers numbered that much and they are stated as being 1/10th the size of the Black Legion, then they would probably be more around the size of 1,000,000.


Thats when sense is supposed to come into play. 

There is 1,000,000 marines in the entire imperium of man. Also, the WB numbered that many before they got their asses handed to them on a galactic scale. There is no way that the BL has as many marines as the entire imperium of man. They don't have nearly the population to draw on and they don't have the resources.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Who said a Million? Im thinkinf 150,00 to the Ultras 250,00.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Looking at the 'Lex entry there seem to be some interesting points (note, they do give sources, but I haven't independently gone and verified them):

After the Heresy, the BL was the most aggressive of all the Traitor Legions in attack the Imperium. That'd lead to heavy losses, one would think.

The BL offered their body as hosts to the Chaos gods. Individual marines didn't stick with a single Chaos god. When they switch loyalties the original daemon would leave and the Chaos Marine would be left an empty husk. This almost caused the extinition of the Legion until the Legion's sorcerers found a way to keep the Chaos Marine host alive after their daemonic possessor left their body. This again would make us believe that the BL is considerably smaller than it once was.

From the Post-Heresy section it mentions that "The [Black] Legion's tactics have been shaped by its lack of numerical strength compared to other Legions..."

All in all, I'd probably give their numbers somewhere around 50,000. Smaller than a traditional Legion.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> Looking at the 'Lex entry there seem to be some interesting points (note, they do give sources, but I haven't independently gone and verified them):
> 
> After the Heresy, the BL was the most aggressive of all the Traitor Legions in attack the Imperium. That'd lead to heavy losses, one would think.
> 
> ...


Whats the sources for this info? Everything else suggested in BL novels and Recent Codex suggest that their numbers swell in size with each Black Crusade, and WBs who numbered 100,000 during the HH said Abby's Legion outnumbers theirs 10 to 1. So the Word Bearers are 10,000? That makes no sense as the Word Bearer Novels had 50,000 attacking a planet in Dark Creed, it was a joint mission with WBs from the EoT with WBs from the Maelstrom. So Abbys Legion should number 500,000 strong. Granted I think thats way too many, more like 150,000 to 200,000. Keep in mind alot of BL is Warbands that broke from their Legion and Renegade Chapters/Marines that have nowhere to go. Actually if you look at alot of the BL colors you will see alot of CSMs like Night Lords and WEs still in their original colors and still act as if their with their Legion, but they have that BL black on thier Shoulder Pads like Deathwatch saying thier with the BL. 

Long post but in the end the BL definatly number more than 50,000.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The source seems to be Realm of Chaos:Slaves to the Darkness. It's pretty old, from 1988. I don't have it.

Where on Earth did you get that the Luna Wolves out numbered the WBs 10:1? WBs were 100,000 men strong and the Luna Wolves something else than 100,000.

Plus we're not talking about their Heresy numbers. We're talking about their current numbers, no?

And I'm not a huge Chaos fan, but I've never heard of Chaos marines using the Blackshoulder pad to show their allegiance to the BL. Couldja cite the source?


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Should've included a "Pre-Horus Heresy Legion of Ultramarines" that'd have been a better option than the current ones. Pre-HH Smurfs = 250,000. Those numbers smush Abbaddon.


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

Rabble rabble rabble.... No but I do think that Abaddon would still lose in a 1v1 fight. Even though I love chaos so much and it hurts me to concede even in the slightest.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Should've included a "Pre-Horus Heresy Legion of Ultramarines" that'd have been a better option than the current ones. Pre-HH Smurfs = 250,000. Those numbers smush Abbaddon.


Depends on what you mean by Ultramarines. From the Space Marine Codex, "almost" 3/5ths of the current Space Marines trace their ancestry back to Guilliman. So that's probably somewhere arond 580,000 marines or so.


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

If I recall correctly, isn't Abbadon "decended" from Horus' geneseed?


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Uriel Ventris...nough said.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Honestly, I'd put the Black Legion at somewhere between 10-15k Marines at any given time, with numbers increasing during the Black Crusade, then sharply turning back down by the time defeat is called. 

Honestly, any more than that and it gets stupid. No way does he have a fighting force of 50 to 100 chapters in addition to daemonic and the LatD- and still lose.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Looking at the 'Lex entry there seem to be some interesting points (note, they do give sources, but I haven't independently gone and verified them):
> 
> After the Heresy, the BL was the most aggressive of all the Traitor Legions in attack the Imperium. That'd lead to heavy losses, one would think.
> 
> ...


All of that was actually back when they were the Sons of Horus and before they became the Black Legion (not longer after they initially fled into the Eye of Terror). When they became the Black Legion (with a vastly different philosophy) and Abaddon established himself as Warmaster of Chaos, their power and numbers vastly increased.



hailene said:


> Where on Earth did you get that the Luna Wolves out numbered the WBs 10:1? WBs were 100,000 men strong and the Luna Wolves something else than 100,000.
> 
> Plus we're not talking about their Heresy numbers. We're talking about their current numbers, no?


*Currently* the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10/1 (source: _Dark Creed_). 



gally912 said:


> Honestly, I'd put the Black Legion at somewhere between 10-15k Marines at any given time, with numbers increasing during the Black Crusade, then sharply turning back down by the time defeat is called.
> 
> Honestly, any more than that and it gets stupid. No way does he have a fighting force of 50 to 100 chapters in addition to daemonic and the LatD- and still lose.


The Black Legion *definitely* numbers *much* more than 10-15,000.


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## Mannimarco (Apr 27, 2011)

And can we stop thinking Abaddon has failed every time?

I'll cite Liber Chaotica Khorne (is it canon? if it proves a point it is but if it disproves it then no) as my reference for the first 12 and the world wide campaign for the 13th Black Crusade which was a Chaos victory.

We know from Liber Chaotica Khorne that Abaddon has succeeded (or had partial success) in 4 of his crusades, failed in 4 and we have no info whatsoever on 4.

I really dont get how he is considered such a failure just because he isnt stomping across Terra, tearing up the place and drawing funny mustaches on the paintings and tying damsels in distress to train tracks or whatever the hell it is Chaos lords to get their kicks nowadays.

Theres such a thing as story progression and for Abaddon to start tearing up Terra would be such a massive jump in the storyline it simply cant be allowed to happen.

To this day we still get people lamenting the death of the squats and still talking of Malal (no Draigo is not a champion of Malal, hes just another poorly thought out mary sue) so can anybody really imagine what would happen if GW came out and said:

"Ok Abaddon isnt a failure, he won the 14th Black Crusade easily. You know Cadia? Its gone, dead. Creed? Well he aint a tactical genius no more, all those marine chapters who tried to stop him? Well they're dead as well and Abaddon is now laying waste to Terra". 

You wanted the story to progress? You wanted Abaddon to not suck quite so much? Well there it is.

On the issue of the Black Legion numbers:

Its been forever since I read that book but I always just assumed it meant the BL outnumbered the WB 10/1 on that planet.

If the Word Bearers send 100 marines and the Black Legion send 1000 they outnumber them 10/1 but it doesnt necessarily mean theres 10 times as many Black Legion in total.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Where can I find out about the latest Black Crusade?


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## Mannimarco (Apr 27, 2011)

The 13th Black Crusade was the world wide campaign from a couple of years ago. It has led to much contention in the community where the Chaos players will loudly trumpet the fact that they won but this is countered by loyalist players who will claim such things as "well you won on the ground but we won in space so we can ferry in more troops and you cant so we will win eventually" and "you cheated and doctored your results to get the wins".

The results were in a white dwarf shortly after the world wirde campaign, you may be able to find them online but my google fu is weak.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mannimarco said:


> On the issue of the Black Legion numbers:
> 
> Its been forever since I read that book but I always just assumed it meant the BL outnumbered the WB 10/1 on that planet.
> 
> If the Word Bearers send 100 marines and the Black Legion send 1000 they outnumber them 10/1 but it doesnt necessarily mean theres 10 times as many Black Legion in total.


No just re-read it, its clearly referring to the Legions as a whole.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I vote black legion because...

1. I'm chaos
2. I hate ultrasmurfs


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## Mannimarco (Apr 27, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No just re-read it, its clearly referring to the Legions as a whole.


Fair point I stand corrected. Going to mean the BL are a particularly large Legion as I always imagined the WB themselves havnt split into the little warbands (ok theres a couple here and there) like the other Legions and are instead largely split in half between those in the EoT on Sicarus and those on Ghalmek.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

There's some part of me that almost thinks there are more renegade and traitor chapters than loyal ones. Of course I'd have to look at everything again to determine this. 

A couple of ones off hand are the following.

1. The loyalist astartes seemed to have suffered more than the traitor legions.
-Space Wolves survived their ambush and anhilating the Thousand Sons
-Salamanders were pretty much exterminated
-Corax survived with the ability to create a few chapters.
-Dark Angels fought against the Night Lords and then were forced to destroy their other half on Caliban.
-Ultramarines had lost most of their Legion to the Great Scouring. I can't imagine what the other's lost.
-Constant swaying of chapters to the Ruinous Powers
-Last but not least, the Iron Warriors and the Black Legion control pretty much almost all the geneseed hidden on Hydra Cordatus.

The most powerful astartes warbands do have the means of making new astartes. 

I think the Black Legion does have superior number(in astartes), it just has limited resources to keep it together. It also is facing Imperial Defences with unlimited number of Imperial Guard and resources. But the biggest problem I think is that Abaddon doesn't have complete back up of ALL the traitor astartes. As a whole, the Iron Warriors (for the most part) have paid a toll from his Crusade. And Huron Black Heart who seems to rival Abaddon in an extent for resources and power, maybe the second biggest _traitor astartes_ power.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I really hope Huron gets more going for him in the next Dex. I know the Word Bearers there sre out numbrered and out gun by Red Corsairs.


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