# Whats so good about Terminators with TH + SS?



## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

I had a lengthy conversation with my friend about Terminators with Thunder hammer and Storm Sheild. 

Now, we came upon the subject of, are they viable? Basically, we decided that they aren't actually worth all the "hype" that has been given to them, I mean, 3 attacks on the charge, all at Initiative 1, meaning they strike last (yes, they strike the same time as the models they didn't kill next turn), but a squad of 5 (15 Attacks) against lets say... A Squad of Khorne Berzerkers (12 Man) looks something like this:




> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Berzerkers, Skull Champ vs Terminators W/ TH + SS*
> 
> ...


You're losing nearly half the models in one round of combat. Yes, I am probably making a point using a squad that is perhaps the best in combat (yeah sorry ) 

But what makes the Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shields worth it?


----------



## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

They are tough to kill, and power weapons make bugger all difference.
They need quantity over quality to take them down.

Also, Berzerkers are one of the most effective things to use against them.
And the unit of 12 Berzerkers with Champ is a LOT more points than the Terminators too.
And you are also assuming that the Berzerkers are charging.

You also need to take into account that the Terminators are going to strike back, kill Berzerkers, win combat, and force you to take a couple of "No Retreat" saves at the end of the combat.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Berzerkers also dont do to well with ap3 or less firepower. While Termies with stormshields can take the shooting.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Well, first off you''re short-changing the termie squad by almost two terminators in points, but thats not the point. 

And I might even give you that a full squad of charging zerkers may very well get the better of them. If the termies get initiate the assault, I'd bet even money. You know, the whole wounding on 2+ and power weapons thing....

But compare the two- not against each other, but in any given battlefield situation. 

Shot at by small arms? Termies
Shot at by plasma/high AP? Termies
Attacking vehicles? Termies
More deployment options? Termies
Better dedicated transports? Termies
Fighting CC specialists equipped with power weapons? Termies
Wounding Monstrous creatures? Termies
Unit more likely to survive getting charged by zerkers? Termies


I can go on


----------



## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I have yet to play them in my up and coming BA successor chapter but I know for a fact they massacre my 'Nid monstrous creatures. Lets see Berzerkers do that as efficiently.


----------



## Mr.Juggernaught (Nov 16, 2010)

Terminators have a good save against anything really the only thing that will just laugh at the terminators would be a squad of Necron pariahs with their all saves ignoring scythes. Also if you have them with a sanguinary priest they will have a 4+ save if they fail their invulnerable or Armour save effectively halving the casualties. That and they are cheap very cheap. Again another great example of GW's willingness to do anything for a quick buck (or million!)


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

uh... he has the zerkers wounding on 4's. If they charged their WS5, S5, I5 so they are actually wounding on 3's therefore killing more terminators but hey, the arguments for THSS are still all valid


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

But those berzerkers are also more expensive than the terminators. That is 292pts. of Berzerkers, vs. 200pts. of Terminators.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

the bezerker arguement isn't really the point as gally912 pointed out. look at the new tyranids like the mawloc and trygon. 11 bezerkers charging is 44 attacks, 22 hit, 1/3 wound= 7 and then 2/3 are saved = around 2. the skull champ really won't make a difference.

the 5 termies (for less) have 15 attacks, 7 hits, 6 wounds, no saves, dead monster.

in responses trygon have 6 attacks, 3 hit bezerkers, 3 dead. 4 hit termies, 1 dies.


in essence you pay for the SS to allow survivability. if the LC termies assaulted the bezerkers its a very different story. same initiative. 

termies charge, 20 attacks, half hit= 10, half kill =5, reroll failed =8. all dead
bezerker respond. 33 attacks, 22 hit, 11 wound, 2 die.


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

uh... except the termies are at I1 because of fists / hammers so it doesn't matter who charges... ALL zerkers attack ALL the time so if the termies charge they've lost 2 at I4 instead of I5. They're still dead by the time you get to I1.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

clever handle said:


> uh... except the termies are at I1 because of fists / hammers so it doesn't matter who charges... ALL zerkers attack ALL the time so if the termies charge they've lost 2 at I4 instead of I5. They're still dead by the time you get to I1.


Caliban was tossing out Lightning Claw Termies, who strike at normal initiative.


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

EDIT: NOTE TO SELF, LEARN TO READ..

THSS termies rock because they are so hard. All of the arguments justifying their use are completely valid. The ONLY things that should scare THSS termies are

a) CTan / Callidus
b) Swarmlord,
c) deepstrike misshap (LOVE it when they're deployed in a land raider that I can imobilize & forget about!)
d) HUGE amounts of small-arms fire. twin linked splinter / bladestorm / first rank, second rank, etc.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Not to mention Pariahs. They work more as a fear factor; you go near them, they will eat you. A handy tip for Necron players facing heavy numbers of terminators; stick some Pariahs, secreted away in your main block, and watch as the termies just flee...

Somebody did this quite well in a multiplayer game at my local GW. The manager organised the game, and had a coveted doom unit; it was 10 Imperial Fists terminators, with TH/SS, led by Lysander. Anyway, he had given them special rules allowing them to essentially Heroic Intervention. He did it slap bang nearby the Necron main force, claiming that he would kill the whole block in no more than three turns. Shame he didn't see the 7 Pariahs and Lord with warscythe, who ran up to the unit and slaughtered it.

Everyone around the table stood in silence as the beloved Fists were removed, much to the dismay of the manager. The rest of his terminator assault wing (and most other units on the table, in fact, including my Space Marines) made every precaution to not go anywhere near the Necrons. People were terrified, and we had to roll a dice-off to see which unfortunate in our team would be tasked with dealing with the threat. Luckily, I escaped...


But forever since, I remembered. Never under-estimate Necrons. Never even think about it.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Yes, but aside from Termi's, Pariahs are <i>bad</i>

A single s5 attack, 2 on the charge, even ignoring all saves, for how many points? And they don't count as Necrons? Woo.

But yeah, the question was answered almost immediately. They're the Benchmark for Close Combat Specialists and Hammers everywhere because they're all around. You pretty much have to torrent them to kill them, they tear most things up in CC, and against other CC specialists they at least tie things up and inflict distinct losses. Against units that frequently cost more than them.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Yes, but aside from Termi's, Pariahs are <i>bad</i>
> 
> A single s5 attack, 2 on the charge, even ignoring all saves, for how many points? And they don't count as Necrons? Woo.


Pariahs are terrible. And you know, if the rock unit had included just a single Termie with dual lightning claws, that entire combat would have turned out differently. 2 would stand to totally destroy it. 

I'm a fan of dropping in one or two LC Termies. Wound allocation can get you around the weaker Inv save.


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

It seems like most of the arguments in defense of the Terminators in this thread are generally focused on the fact that they're Terminators, when the question was really more about a specific loadout for the Terminators.

I agree. Essentially a Thunderhammer is nothing but a power fist that has a little extra smack when used on a vehicle, and the storm shield only improves the Invulnerable Save. Big deal. I'm confused as to why a model that's outfitted to do its best work when fighting vehicles needs a shield. 

To my mind, a squad of Terminators with the basic powerfist/storm bolter loadout is much more worth their points. They have the same strength, same ability to ignore enemy armor, they can shoot, and their Invulnerable Save is a little worse but I can live with that.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

5++ is not a little worse than 3++, it's a lot worse. When a Plasma Taxi rolls up next to you , you'll soon discover that. Makes them much more durable in combat as well against power weapon/rending foes.


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> 5++ is not a little worse than 3++, it's a lot worse. When a Plasma Taxi rolls up next to you , you'll soon discover that. Makes them much more durable in combat as well against power weapon/rending foes.


In the Black Templars book it's a 4++ Invulnerable Save, brother. Not much of a dramatic advantage over a 5++. Certainly not enough to justify the lack of ranged attacks, IMHO.


----------



## Bhaal006 (Apr 11, 2010)

The difference between a 5++ and a 3++ is 33% more dead terminators. 1/3 more dead guys, seems significant to me.


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Bhaal006 said:


> The difference between a 5++ and a 3++ is 33% more dead terminators. 1/3 more dead guys, seems significant to me.


So the question remains: Worth the hype?


----------



## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

they are worth it do you know what its like with all those str 9 attacks by some miracle you survive you cant attack the next round.


----------



## Bhaal006 (Apr 11, 2010)

unixknight said:


> So the question remains: Worth the hype?


Can you, or anyone else name an equal or better assault unit for 40 points per model.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

Bhaal006 said:


> The difference between a 5++ and a 3++ is 33% more dead terminators. 1/3 more dead guys, seems significant to me.


its actually a 100% increase or a 50% decrease
3 wounds taken with 5++= 2 dead
3 wounds taken with 5++= 1 dead


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

there is nothing that can deal out so much damage and survive so much as the SSTH, even HQ struggle. especially if they're in a salamander/blood angel army


----------



## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Bhaal006 said:


> Can you, or anyone else name an equal or better assault unit for 40 points per model.


Fiends of Slaanesh are 30 points a model, I think bloodcrushers are about 45 points a model. Fiends are beasts with S5, so are much more difficult to avoid than terminators, and yet still get to deep strike and can rip holes in tanks.

Bloodcruchers are all s6 on the charge with 4 attacks each with power weapons, and again they have excellent saves and toughness, only THESE guys have power wepons.

New 'Nid warriors armed with lash whips and boneswords also rip holes through terminators. Sure, they have worse saves. They also have thrice as many wounds as terminators :/

Terminators are indeed awesome, but they are no means cost effective. When it gets right down to it, you're still only T4 with a 2+ save. All you really need is a big volume of shots. A 2+ save doesn't make you feel any better when the unit has 5 wounds and is under a hail of lasfire lol.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

landraider


----------



## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Not so, Caliban! In a match two weeks ago I smashed open a Redeemer with a unit of fiends. They can be s6 with rending after all ^^.

(By the way, am I the only one who thinks it's strange that there's an anti-steroids ad above our discussion of space marines?)


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Having to deepstrike makes things worse, not better, and having a crappy invuln save is also painful.

Plus... the Daemons dex was written by a fantasy player and shows it. They do CC. Woo. 'Rines get Hammernators and... the rest of their army carries shooting to perfection. Woo.


----------



## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Either way, the point is that SS + TH Termies lack the wounds, initiative and attacks to prove their points, because they only Have T4, and they can't get anything better than a 2+ save. Also, this is just me comparing just Fiends vs. just Terminators, Cyklown. I only really want to look at them as units, not in an army.

It's the best saves possible for a unit, but a canny opponent could quite easily avoid them, or plough a huge amount of shots into them. 

This is why I prefer my fiends, because they're fast enough that they can't be avoided, and usually get to make their charges by the second turn. Conversely, the ponderous Terminators must wander slowly across the table at the normal infantry rate. Thus, though Fiends can suffer less shooting, they will realistically also be put in the way of less shooting.

Also, SS are really more for dealing with lascannon and people armed with power weapons. To me this makes them over-specialized, because there tends to be only a few characters/heavy weapons on a list, and in the meantime there are much easier targets for them to kill.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

But you can't look at just the units. You have to look at the whole army. We aren't playing 4th ed, units don't exist to earn their points back, they exist to win as a cohesive unit.

Heck, you delve into that yourself. A canny opponent CAN'T just avoid them. Yes, single LRs fail, but a dual raider list makes sure that those termi's keep rolling, and against every OTHER sane use of termi's the enemy HAS to walk right into them. The primary use of termi's is, honestly, bubblewrap for shooty lists. You have your meltabunkers or Rifledreads or what have you firmly in the middle field, and shoot the crap out of the other guy. To melta your stuff or otherwise dislodge you he's walking onto the Hammernators claws.

SS are there to go hand in hand with the 2+ save. It makes lascannons and other ap2 toys crap against them, and their 2+ save makes torrenting them take ages. The two work together to make even a balanced list groan when it tries to shoot them to pieces.


----------



## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Tatsumaki said:


> Fiends of Slaanesh are 30 points a model, I think bloodcrushers are about 45 points a model. Fiends are beasts with S5, so are much more difficult to avoid than terminators, and yet still get to deep strike and can rip holes in tanks.
> 
> Bloodcruchers are all s6 on the charge with 4 attacks each with power weapons, and again they have excellent saves and toughness, only THESE guys have power wepons.
> 
> ...


Fiends are awesome, Bloodcrushers are just as awesome. These are two of the best units from their codex. Both are Daemons and many Daemons are unusually good for their points cost to make up for their really lousy special deployment rules and absolute lack of transports/vehicles not named Soul Grinders. Multiple wounds with Eternal Warrior really helps too.

'Nid Warriors lose in a head to head with SS/TH Termies. They also just aren't as good. They have no Invulnerable save, cost as much or more if equipped with any sort of Power Weapons, and get double toughed by S8 wounds, making their 3W absolutely, freaking useless.


----------



## Trihnicus (Oct 8, 2010)

equivalent points cost of boys or warbikers I'm betting on to wipe TH/SS termies off the face of the earth. They are routinely the -least- threatening facet of any SM army I go up against. No recorded instances of them ever making points back vs. me.

I admit this is a side effect of facing off versus a melee inclined horde army... I've seen them do impressive things.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Trihnicus said:


> equivalent points cost of boys or warbikers I'm betting on to wipe TH/SS termies off the face of the earth. They are routinely the -least- threatening facet of any SM army I go up against. No recorded instances of them ever making points back vs. me.
> 
> I admit this is a side effect of facing off versus a melee inclined horde army... I've seen them do impressive things.


Please never use the phrase "earn their points back" again. This is 5th ed, not 4th.


----------

