# Dan Abnett on Missing Primarchs



## Malus Darkblade

Skip to 1:11


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## ckcrawford

that would be cool


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I think it would be a terrible idea.


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## Fallen

well, its interesting thought

i know that i shouldnt know what happened, but i want to still...at least the reason for 1 of them to be expunged or chapter colors or something


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think it would be a terrible idea.


Dude it would be awesome.

This whole missing primarchs bit just so players can make awful fluff of their own has been milked for far too long in my opinion.

It's time for two awesome Primarchs to come out, it's been like what twenty+ years since their conception?

The current state of WH40k's post-heresy story can't stay this way forever, some groundbreaking changes have to come by *cough* revival of the emperor *cough* 

For now, they need to expand heavily on the fluff behind Peretuboro, Khan, and Vulcan, these three more so than the rest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Dude it would be awesome.
> 
> This whole missing primarchs bit just so players can make awful fluff of their own has been milked for far too long in my opinion.
> 
> It's time for two awesome Primarchs to come out, it's been like what twenty+ years since their conception?


Revealing the missing Primarchs in a genuine and believable way without it drastically changing both the 30k & 40k backgrounds is a near-impossibility in my opinion.

They were originally concieved as a means for players to create theories/Legions/Chapters related to the II and XI Legions, and thats how I believe they should stay. The Heresy series shouldn't reveal every single long-standing mystery.

And even if background for them was created/revealed (created is probably the more accurate word as GW or BL never did create background intended for release concerning both of the Lost Primarchs) then it would draw a lot of opposition, even among people who thought it was a good idea to reveal them in the first place, but who thought it was done in a sloppy/unbelievable way.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The current state of WH40k's post-heresy story can't stay this way forever, some groundbreaking changes have to come by *cough* revival of the emperor *cough*


Well, Yes it can. 40k has always been a setting, not a progressional storyline. We also have 10,000 years of relatively unexplored history to explore first.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts.


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## screenedwings

interesting:dunno:


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Revealing the missing Primarchs in a genuine and believable way without it drastically changing both the 30k & 40k backgrounds is a near-impossibility in my opinion.


Well GW has a history of ret-cons and what not. 

People may complain but eventually they will give in to change. For example, the HH series are becoming the new official canon, displacing older bits of info supposedly set in stone.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They were originally concieved as a means for players to create theories/Legions/Chapters related to the II and XI Legions, and thats how I believe they should stay. The Heresy series shouldn't reveal every single long-standing mystery.


I don't think revealing the two missing Primarchs or at least answering why they were erased from Imperial records (despite legions that turned to Chaos not) would unveil every mystery of the pre-heresy.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And even if background for them was created/revealed (created is probably the more accurate word as GW or BL never did create background intended for release concerning both of the Lost Primarchs) then it would draw a lot of opposition, even among people who thought it was a good idea to reveal them in the first place, but who thought it was done in a sloppy/unbelievable way.



I'm pretty sure Dan or another author of such fame would be the ones handling the story. Above all GW is a business and they will, as they often have, put aside fluff set in stone in favor of more profit (ie. retcons)




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well, Yes it can. 40k has always been a setting, not a progressional storyline. We also have 10,000 years of relatively unexplored history to explore first.


Do you honestly think that the current storyline will remain the same or not undergo huge changes for long? 

True there are large gaps in the WH40k universe that have not been explored yet but who is to say they can't be tied in conveniently with the storylines of the two missing primarchs? 

It would be like hitting two birds with one stone and once the dust has settled, rampant changes can occur and keep the series fresh and not stagnant  

My 2 cents.


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## primeministersinsiter

I think we can learn their fate rather than who they are and it would be fine. I think if they were destroyed before the set foot outside of their 'eggs' that would be fine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> People may complain but eventually they will give in to change. For example, the HH series are becoming the new official canon, displacing older bits of info supposedly set in stone.


Well technically speaking, its not the 'new official canon' as everything with a GW/BL/Warhammer/Sabertooth etc stamp on it is 'official canon' - its just that most fans nowadays tend to take the Heresy novels over older established sources.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think revealing the two missing Primarchs or at least answering why they were erased from Imperial records (despite legions that turned to Chaos not) would unveil every mystery of the pre-heresy.


No, it wouldn't. And I didn't mean it like that. I meant that some mysteries are best left as mysteries.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm pretty sure Dan or another author of such fame would be the ones handling the story. Above all GW is a business and they will, as they often have, put aside fluff set in stone in favor of more profit (ie. retcons)


Well, so far throughout the Heresy Series we have been given a few tidbits on the Lost Legions (in _Mechanicum_ for example) and for me that is enough. Its enough to keep us interested, but not enough to ruin the mystery.

Just remember as well though that GW makes most of its money from the TT game/Models, and is focused mainly on them. A few background retcons (unless major ones) doesn't really effect model sales.

And although Abnett is a good author and one of BL's best, that doesn't mean he can pull off every major challenge you set him. Hes not Tolkien after all 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Do you honestly think that the current storyline will remain the same or not undergo huge changes for long?


Yes I do, and I believe time will prove me right. Currently we are in 999.M41 (The Time of Ending) - We have the Third War for Armageddon, Thirteenth Black Crusade, The Golden Throne failing and several other Major events ongoing, and in some cases unconclusive.

GW has put the background literally on a precipice, a few more years and the Imperium could change drastically. The Emperor will never be revived, the Primarchs will never return, the same old grimdark and stagnant 40k setting will continue. It would be too much of a business risk otherwise, and any major background change (like bringing Primarchs/Emperor back) would also greatly effect the TableTop Game and therefore their sales revenue.



primeministersinsiter said:


> I think we can learn their fate rather than who they are and it would be fine. I think if they were destroyed before the set foot outside of their 'eggs' that would be fine.


You mean if they were killed in infancy? Well Background material tells us that Twenty Primarchs were discovered and all fought in the Great Crusade.


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## Malus Darkblade

Meh sorry but I want to know who the missing Primarchs are and I want them to be the most badass ones of them all who really stir things up.

You're too negative lol, I'm all for the emperor getting revived and dealing with Chaos, a powerful resurgence of the Ctan, necrons, tyranids and heck why not an additional alien threat?

I like my fluff fresh and full of action


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## Baron Spikey

Then your playing the wrong game.


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## Coder59

It's odd but I've never really been curious about those two lost legions. I know there is the theory that Horus killed one of them during his 'Vision' *Cough* Bollocks *Cough* but that allways seemed a bit too daft to me. 

I always worked on the assumption that the two mission Primarchs were either just never found or died on the worlds they landed on. It seemed to add a little more grit to the whole concept that not everybody was found. 

Of course that's not the only theory I have. A long buried theory of mine was formed after I read the fluff about the Black Library, and Ahriman's attack being repulsed by it's mysterious 'Guardians' for some reason this idea just formed in my head about one of the lost Primarchs being found by the Eldar instead of humans and being initially taught and trained by them. I then had this mad idea that when the Big E found him and gave him control of his legion the first thing he did was turn traitor and vanish into the webway eventually taking up custodianship of the Black Library. 

Course I never really did anything else with that theory because while I could imagine a Primarch doing that the idea of an entire army of Marines going bye bye with the Emperor out and about and active in the crusade just didn't seem realistic to me.

But I say roll on Dan Abnett i would love to see some fluff about the 2nd and 11th primarchs if just to put an end to the crappy fan fluff like mine.


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## Commissar Ploss

Coder59 said:


> But I say roll on Dan Abnett i would love to see some fluff about the 2nd and 11th primarchs if just to put an end to the crappy fan fluff like mine.


don't put yourself down! fan fluff ROX!!1!


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## K3k3000

I think some mysteries are better left unanswered an some mysteries really ought to have answers. I want to know why there's a blood war, what the Lady of Pain really is, and all that rot. The missing primarchs I don't care too much about, but letting continuity and progress go stagnent for the sake of sales is, from an artistic standpoint, a poor idea. I think something big needs to change in the setting.


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## Baltar

I think Abnett should sod off.


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## Baron Spikey

1) We don't particularly care if you dislike BL's most popular author, though thanks for sharing

2) Abnett's workload stuns me, if he ever produces more than 1 BL novel in a year then hats off to him...though I hope he doesn't reveal too much regarding the unknown Primarchs.


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## Baltar

1) I don't particularly care if you don't particularly care if I dislike BL's most popular author, though thanks for sharing

2) Dan Abnett's novels are basically all the same. I wouldn't be surprised if they were all based on a template - all he needs to do is kill off almost every character, in every novel he writes, and he has another book for little geeks to froth at the mouth over.

You never know; he has already basically plagiarised the entire series of Sharpe novels in the Gaunt's Ghosts series - he may aswell find a few more popular war stories to mimic.


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## Helvron

The Real Sanguinius said:


> You never know; he has already basically plagiarised the entire series of Sharpe novels in the Gaunt's Ghosts series - he may aswell find a few more popular war stories to mimic.



So Danny has plagiarised Scottish ninjas in the 41 millenia... some one wrote that before?


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## Malus Darkblade

Helvron said:


> So Danny has plagiarised Scottish ninjas in the 41 millenia... some one wrote that before?


Wow the image of a Scottish ninja complete with the accent is pure win.


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## Unknown Primarch

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Revealing the missing Primarchs in a genuine and believable way without it drastically changing both the 30k & 40k backgrounds is a near-impossibility in my opinion.


how can it drastically change the background of the fluff when their story would have to fit around the current fluff anyway? any ideas put forward and released wouldnt be allowed to do that and the stories would only get released if they were really topnotch anyway.

i dont think revealing alpharius to be a twin has anything bad and it changed things in a sense but added something new and totally great. 

revealing the unknowns is long overdue and would really add something new and quite great to the current fluff in my opinion.


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## ckcrawford

I want to know the secrets of the lost primarchs before i die, thats for sure. I think it'll be a hard thing to do, but I think if they do any literature on it, it would definitley be a good piece of literature. I definitley think it would change the 40k universe but not to the extent of what the horus heresy has done and will be doing. 

People fear the two primarchs. "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate... leads to suffering. I feel much fear on this topic.":shok:


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## zeroblackstar

K3k3000 said:


> I think some mysteries are better left unanswered an some mysteries really ought to have answers. I want to know why there's a blood war, what the Lady of Pain really is, and all that rot. The missing primarchs I don't care too much about, but letting continuity and progress go stagnent for the sake of sales is, from an artistic standpoint, a poor idea. I think something big needs to change in the setting.


Planescape: Torment? Love it.

Nothing drastic has changed about the 40k fluff for donkeys years really. I cant see it changing anytime soon.

There is deliberately no climactic event on the horizon, i.e the emperor making a comeback. As has been already pointed out, this jeopardizes the franchise.

Besides, in the grim darkness of the future, there is only war.

and inflation. war and inflation.


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## Baltar

And taxes.


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## shaantitus

I for one would be happy with a few hints as to what happened to the 2nd and 11th. Don't need the whole story but a bit of an indication would be enough for me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> 1) We don't particularly care if you dislike BL's most popular author, though thanks for sharing





The Real Sanguinius said:


> 1) I don't particularly care if you don't particularly care if I dislike BL's most popular author, though thanks for sharing


Touche :biggrin:



shaantitus said:


> I for one would be happy with a few hints as to what happened to the 2nd and 11th. Don't need the whole story but a bit of an indication would be enough for me.


That is what I would find perfectly adequate, im all up for the subtle hints we've been getting so far (like in _Mechanicum_) - to keep up interest, but thats as far as I would want it to go.



Unknown Primarch said:


> how can it drastically change the background of the fluff when their story would have to fit around the current fluff anyway?


Thats why I said in a 'genuine or believable' way 



Unknown Primarch said:


> any ideas put forward and released wouldnt be allowed to do that and the stories would only get released if they were really topnotch anyway.


Several BL novels and authors stand as testament to the contrary.



Unknown Primarch said:


> i dont think revealing alpharius to be a twin has anything bad and it changed things in a sense but added something new and totally great.


Well going on what Abnett said in the interview, the concept of Alpharius being a twin was always intended, even from the beginning. Also the point is that the revelation of Alpharius Omegon doesn't change the background drastically, and was still done in a believable way, I remain skeptical as to whether revealing the Lost Primarchs would be the same.


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## randian

zeroblackstar said:


> Besides, in the grim darkness of the future, there is only war.


Why would that stop if the Emperor were rejuvenated or the missing Primarchs returned? If anything the Imperium would become more aggressive, not less.


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## Malus Darkblade

randian said:


> Why would that stop if the Emperor were rejuvenated or the missing Primarchs returned? If anything the Imperium would become more aggressive, not less.


Exactly. 

That quote about how the main fleet of the Tyranids arriving in a hundred years time and requiring the imperium to become 500% more efficient to even stand a chance comes to mind.

What better figure to inspire the masses into a frenzy and powerhouse than the emperor himself?


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## countchocula86

I just cant see the argument. Everyone keeps saying "Oooh I have to know what happened to those 2 missing Primarchs!" but the answer is very very simply: anything you want. And trust me, I know Im beating a dead horse here, but honestly why do you care so much, knowing that they were purposefully left out, not with the intention of some incredible storyline, but for the players to use as a starting point. 

I mean what happens if some story is published anyways? Chances are they will either be stupidly overpowerful. Or else, even if they are written well, people will be underwhelmed because they've wanted to know for so long. 

I think if they were ever to bring back the 2 Primarchs, or have the Emperor awake it would be the end of 40k, not because war would suddenly end, but just because the major plot devices that spur the fluff on would be finished. It would be the epilogue. Sure things would keep happening, but the story itself would be concluded.

Then again, maybe all that stuff would form the legends for a new millennium of war! heheh Warhammer 80k!


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## Malus Darkblade

countchocula86 said:


> I just cant see the argument. Everyone keeps saying "Oooh I have to know what happened to those 2 missing Primarchs!" but the answer is very very simply: anything you want. And trust me, I know Im beating a dead horse here, but honestly why do you care so much, knowing that they were purposefully left out, not with the intention of some incredible storyline, but for the players to use as a starting point.


The whole leaving two Primarchs out was just a business strategy and it's been milked for over twenty years. 

Major change will occur in the WH40k universe and it's inevitable as it is with any franchise.



countchocula86 said:


> I mean what happens if some story is published anyways? Chances are they will either be stupidly overpowerful. Or else, even if they are written well, people will be underwhelmed because they've wanted to know for so long.


All the current primarchs are stupidly OP but they all got cut down or trashed in their own way.

If anything, I would think these two missing primarchs will have had little to zero interaction with the HH which would make things very interesting.




countchocula86 said:


> I think if they were ever to bring back the 2 Primarchs, or have the Emperor awake it would be the end of 40k, not because war would suddenly end, but just because the major plot devices that spur the fluff on would be finished. It would be the epilogue. Sure things would keep happening, but the story itself would be concluded.


War would not suddenly stop with the revival of the emperor, it wouldn't even be a distant possibility. Scroll up for my post about the incoming tyranid fleet.

Again, there is only so much that can be said and written about post-HH and the events that led up to it, and GW has been going at it for more than two decades.

People will complain about changes but will eventually succumb to it as they always have and will  .



countchocula86 said:


> Then again, maybe all that stuff would form the legends for a new millennium of war! heheh Warhammer 80k!


Bingo.

Space Marines with Jedi-like swords anyone? lol.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

I think a lot of this call for the two missing Primarchs to be revealed has come from the way people have started to look at making up a backstory for your own Chapter. I've looked at the odd guide or two, and all of them have stated that saying your Chapter has anything to do with one of the missing Primarchs/Legion, is the kiss-of-death to the idea. As GW left these two spots undefined purely for the purpose of giving fans room to make Chapters without ties to the other 18 Legions, and seeing as doing this has become a no-no, that has removed the purpose of having two missing Legions/Primarchs.
I'd love to see exactly what happened to the missing, but, as much as I want my curiosity satisfied, I think it's better to leave them as is. Vague presences that have left their fingerprints on the galaxy, but not enough to sat for definite who or what they were. I think doing this, letting dribs-and-drabs of fluff out without breaking the spell and the background, will actually be harder to achieve than just spelling it all out.

GFP


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## World Eater XII

They will probably make it into a epic 15book + series then say whoops the squats ate them.


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## K3k3000

World Eater XII said:


> They will probably make it into a epic 15book + series then say whoops the squats ate them.


And then the tyranids ate the squats! It's the perfect crime!


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## countchocula86

Malus Darkblade said:


> The whole leaving two Primarchs out was just a business strategy and it's been milked for over twenty years.


Not a business strategy lol. Its a creative strategy.




> All the current primarchs are stupidly OP but they all got cut down or trashed in their own way.


Yes, so if 2 Primarch show up and rile up the whole current system, with exploits seemingly more badass than the others, I would call that OP. At least at the time of the Heresy, there were many Primarchs, and they were able to face off against each other, which somewhat balanced things sort of. 



> War would not suddenly stop with the revival of the emperor, it wouldn't even be a distant possibility. Scroll up for my post about the incoming tyranid fleet.


Yep, and so I said war wouldnt suddenly stop. But the story would be irrevocably finished. I dunno, think of it like at the end of Romeo and Juliet they both die. And the story ends. But realistically people would keep living, and mourn the two. So why didn't that store keep on going?



> Again, there is only so much that can be said and written about post-HH and the events that led up to it, and GW has been going at it for more than two decades.


Yes, I agree with you. But what that has to do with creating a back story for 2 Primarch blanks Im still not sure. There are other things that can be written about.


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## primeministersinsiter

Red Scorpions primarch mayhaps?


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## bobss

Malus Darkblade said:


> Wow the image of a Scottish ninja complete with the accent is pure win.


Thats called a pirate:laugh:


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## Warlock in Training

I think 40k *IS* a continuing story. The new and different Wars base on Armeggeddon, The 13 Black Crusades with Abbaddon recently holding Cadia. The Dameonicules (however you speel it ) Crusade against the Tau, the Arrival of Necs. Hive Fleet Behometh, Kraken, and Leviathon. All of those Hive Fleets are added with every new Nid Dex. How can someone say 40k is suppose to stay year watever forever with new additions to fluff and races being added? Roll with the changes or perish, Marvel Comics learn that lesson with their 50 year old heros. 

The HH is great cus it adds to the fluff, and yes there is plenty to write about in the past, like Knight of the Republic did for Star Wars. However new Campaigns and Wars must be fought to keep interest. Im not fighting the same War of Armeggeddon for the next 10 years. No thank you. Lets finnish the 13 Black Crusade, War of Armeggeddon and move on to something new.


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## Malus Darkblade

Warlock in Training said:


> I think 40k *IS* a continuing story. The new and different Wars base on Armeggeddon, The 13 Black Crusades with Abbaddon recently holding Cadia. The Dameonicules (however you speel it ) Crusade against the Tau, the Arrival of Necs. Hive Fleet Behometh, Kraken, and Leviathon. All of those Hive Fleets are added with every new Nid Dex. How can someone say 40k is suppose to stay year watever forever with new additions to fluff and races being added? Roll with the changes or perish, Marvel Comics learn that lesson with their 50 year old heros.
> 
> The HH is great cus it adds to the fluff, and yes there is plenty to write about in the past, like Knight of the Republic did for Star Wars. However new Campaigns and Wars must be fought to keep interest. Im not fighting the same War of Armeggeddon for the next 10 years. No thank you. Lets finnish the 13 Black Crusade, War of Armeggeddon and move on to something new.


Hear hear !


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## ckcrawford

I agree, they can do soooo much by just continueing the "40k story." I bet they will get those primarchs stories out, but i think that its going to be a while so they can experiment on the stories of the chapters. One way they could do it, is giving a little information in the heresy... well more than they are now, and then start two whole chapter's (though never refferred to as a chapter)... then slowly the space marine armies findout their histories when fighting against chaos or something between the lines.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Warlock in Training said:


> I think 40k *IS* a continuing story. The new and different Wars base on Armeggeddon, The 13 Black Crusades with Abbaddon recently holding Cadia. The Dameonicules (however you speel it ) Crusade against the Tau, the Arrival of Necs. Hive Fleet Behometh, Kraken, and Leviathon. All of those Hive Fleets are added with every new Nid Dex. How can someone say 40k is suppose to stay year watever forever with new additions to fluff and races being added? Roll with the changes or perish, Marvel Comics learn that lesson with their 50 year old heros.
> 
> The HH is great cus it adds to the fluff, and yes there is plenty to write about in the past, like Knight of the Republic did for Star Wars. However new Campaigns and Wars must be fought to keep interest. Im not fighting the same War of Armeggeddon for the next 10 years. No thank you. Lets finnish the 13 Black Crusade, War of Armeggeddon and move on to something new.


40K is a historical setting. The theme of it is that it's "looking back" on what's happened. So "new" events aren't new, they're just explored for the first time, like the mystery is peeled back. Like the Gothic War. In the universe, that was several hundred years before the 13th Black Crusade. In reality, it was less than a decade between summer campaigns, but people assumed it was "current" and "new".

Same with the Tau. Same with the Tyranids and their "new" hive fleets. They get explored for the first time, and people assume it's new and the storyline is moving on. But they're not new. They're new to players, but in the universe, they've been around for decades or centuries, depending on the race and faction. Almost nothing is current; they just explore battles and events of the recent past. That's what they've always done, and what they're likely to keep doing. After all, they've got endless opportunity to do so, and it's fairly unlikelythey'll go into M42, at least for a long time. The clock is always at "2 minutes to midnight", and could easily stay that way forever, if they chose.


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## Baron Spikey

Such an obvious thing that none of us have really stopped to consider- respect to you sir.

One of the most popular examples of 40K being historical is the Ciaphas Cain series, all the editorial notes are written from M42 looking back at the events of the previous millenium.


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## Malus Darkblade

I was going to argue with your point but I decided not to based on the assumption that you're really aaron and thus privy to more WH40k information than all of us lol.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Baron Spikey said:


> Such an obvious thing that none of us have really stopped to consider- respect to you sir.
> 
> One of the most popular examples of 40K being historical is the Ciaphas Cain series, all the editorial notes are written from M42 looking back at the events of the previous millenium.


Incidentally, that's the exception that proves the rule. Nothing else is allowed to go into M42, and I suspect that's one that the design studio essentially ignores. Cain's not... _really_ canon, if you get me.


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## Warlock in Training

You can add in new stuff to the same story if you want. But Again, Im sick of playing a war on armaggeddon when that ship had sailed LONG ago. Its Stagnation is what that is. 
"Okay, we know the Orks invade the planet and Von Strab was a traitor, that Yarrik is the hero... hmmm.. Oh I know! Hive Fleet wacky doo was on the planet the whole time, we just never revealed it in the fluff. Oh and Gazkul Thraka is a Brood Queen. Yeah thats refreshing." Thats what were in store for with no progressing storyline.


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## Thousandth Son

Eh the revival of the Emperor? I go with what CotE said- we know 40k is an active story. The Emperor is about to die, in a few years the Golden Throne will fail and lead to absoloute carnage. There IS a progressive storyline- like it has already been said, within a few years the Imperium could be totally different or not even there at all. That's all we need I think, but if BL can think up a really interesting and different way to introduce these missing Primarchs, I'm all for it. How they will do it I have no idea, considering that they have been mentioned before to have "fought in the Great Crusade", and yet they have not been mentioned by the created HH novels so far (well, only as a few short mentions, which brings in another question as to why they have been mentioned so sorrowfully by those who have talked of them).


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## faultyvoodoo

I'm really interested in finding out whether or not The Emperor actually did bargain with the "Chaos Powers" to create the primarchs. In Horus' vision, its revealed by a daemon, and from everything we've been taught, never trust a daemon. But then, in a Thousand Sons, Magnus comes right out and says it. So what's the truth? Could the lost primarchs have been bargained away in the Kontract of Khorne's small print?


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## randian

faultyvoodoo said:


> In Horus' vision, its revealed by a daemon, and from everything we've been taught, never trust a daemon.


A daemon is perfectly capable of telling the truth, when doing so furthers its manipulation. Consider Horus' vision of the oppressive future Imperium. All of it was true, but it wasn't the whole truth. The daemon omitted _why_ it was true, and allowed Horus to draw the wrong conclusion from it.

One missing part of the truth is if the Emperor did bargain with daemons, or even with the Great Powers themselves, why didn't he end up being owned by them? The powers of the warp _always_ want something. Daemonic pacts are unbreakable even by the greatest of psykers. The Emperor was the greatest known psyker, but in the warp I believe there are levels of consciousness and power even he could only dimly perceive.


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## Malus Darkblade

randian said:


> A daemon is perfectly capable of telling the truth, when doing so furthers its manipulation. Consider Horus' vision of the oppressive future Imperium. All of it was true, but it wasn't the whole truth. The daemon omitted _why_ it was true, and allowed Horus to draw the wrong conclusion from it.
> 
> One missing part of the truth is if the Emperor did bargain with daemons, or even with the Great Powers themselves, why didn't he end up being owned by them? The powers of the warp _always_ want something. Daemonic pacts are unbreakable even by the greatest of psykers. The Emperor was the greatest known psyker, but in the warp I believe there are levels of consciousness and power even he could only dimly perceive.


The emperor is unique, there is no one like him nor will there ever be.

Thus he is not subject to the direct whims and whimsical of the chaos powers (ie possession).

Also while Erebus's tale may be true, the exact opposite can be said as you mentioned.

Personally I think it would be more interesting if he did indeed bargain with them, but instead of a portion of their power, it would be a piece of information he couldn't of found out on his own. 

I dislike the idea of the emperor being nothing before 'stealing' a portion of their power, I'd rather go along with the idea that he dosen't know everything like tzentech supposedly does.


----------



## Baltar

The way I understood it was that the Emperor is himself a "power" just as the other powers of chaos are supposed to be. In terms of magnitude, he is their equal, but he is different in nature - just as they are to each other. They can't beat him, just like they can't beat each other. None is greater than any of the others - they are all just different.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The way I understood it was that the Emperor is himself a "power" just as the other powers of chaos are supposed to be. In terms of magnitude, he is their equal, but he is different in nature - just as they are to each other. They can't beat him, just like they can't beat each other. None is greater than any of the others - they are all just different.


Yeah that's how I view it too. 

It's also why I think he secretly aspired to become a 'chaos' power in hopes of eradicating them and taking their place as the sole ruler of the warp and being the benevolent chaos power all species worship.


----------



## randian

Malus Darkblade said:


> Thus he is not subject to the direct whims and whimsical of the chaos powers (ie possession).


I wasn't thinking of possession, I was thinking of corruption. That is the usual result of contact with the deranging and mutating energies of Chaos. "Just give me a little bitty trivial bit of your soul in exchange for what you want", says the daemon. "It won't hurt a bit..."


Malus Darkblade said:


> Personally I think it would be more interesting if he did indeed bargain with them, but instead of a portion of their power, it would be a piece of information he couldn't of found out on his own.


That does seem more likely. Perhaps "steal" is a misnomer. Maybe the Emperor wanted a hugely important bit of knowledge, and the great powers of Chaos, salivating at the chance to have a being such as he in their service, offered it as a freebie in the hope he would return to the well. He didn't, so he is accused of "stealing" from them.


Malus Darkblade said:


> I dislike the idea of the emperor being nothing before 'stealing' a portion of their power, I'd rather go along with the idea that he dosen't know everything like tzentech supposedly does.


Tzeentch obviously doesn't know everything, especially as regards the material world. If he did his schemes and plots wouldn't fail. I have no doubt Tzeentch and his servants advertise they possess universal knowledge, all the better to sow corruption, attract recruits, and demoralize enemies.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Personally I think it would be more interesting if he did indeed bargain with them, but instead of a portion of their power, it would be a piece of information he couldn't of found out on his own.
> 
> I dislike the idea of the emperor being nothing before 'stealing' a portion of their power, I'd rather go along with the idea that he dosen't know everything like tzentech supposedly does.


Well the 'power' he stole from the Chaos Gods could well have been knowledge ('Knowledge is Power...') - the knowledge that enabled him to direct the Warp into creating the Primarchs maybe?

And I dont believe it actually says that the Emperor got _all_ his powers from the Chaos Gods. In fact its more implied that he was actually still the most powerful human psyker before his pact with Chaos.




The Real Sanguinius said:


> The way I understood it was that the Emperor is himself a "power" just as the other powers of chaos are supposed to be. In terms of magnitude, he is their equal, but he is different in nature - just as they are to each other. They can't beat him, just like they can't beat each other. None is greater than any of the others - they are all just different.


Im not liking that one so much 

The Emperor is not equal in power or influence to the Chaos Gods. He knows there are intelligences within the warp and he desired to defeat them, he even bargained with them, but he would 'never dare face one'. 



randian said:


> Tzeentch obviously doesn't know everything, especially as regards the material world. If he did his schemes and plots wouldn't fail. I have no doubt Tzeentch and his servants advertise they possess universal knowledge, all the better to sow corruption, attract recruits, and demoralize enemies.


Fateweaver knows everything though 

And the fact that some of his schemes fail is the point. He wants some of his schemes to fail, because many of his plans contradict and actively work against each other - such is the nature of them, the nature of infinite and constant change.


----------



## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not liking that one so much
> 
> The Emperor is not equal in power or influence to the Chaos Gods. He knows there are intelligences within the warp and he desired to defeat them, he even bargained with them, but he would 'never dare face one'.


Ahhh Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. The whole thing with the big E bargaining with Chaos Gods information is only coming from well...Chaos. And I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

Not to mention the fact that the Chaos Gods have been shown to retreat from E's power (See the Duel with Horus in CV) why would they do that, especially when they were so close to killing him? If they were stronger than the E couldn't they have just pumped more Power into Horus so he could resist the assault? 

Chaos Gods stronger than the E? I don't think so, when united equal to his power? Now that seems far more likely.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Coder59 said:


> Ahhh Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. The whole thing with the big E bargaining with Chaos Gods information is only coming from well...Chaos. And I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.




Well Sort of  - Magnus (although you could plausably consider him on Team Chaos) himself stated that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods, and actually in sort of a matter-of-fact way. He knew Warp Creatures weren't to be trusted (as seen by his conversations with Tzeentch) therefore its logical to assume that the Emperor actually told him he had bargained with the Chaos Gods, but as a warning for Magnus not to. As we see from his speech at Nikaea:

"... The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further..."


Or thats how I see it anyway 



Coder59 said:


> Not to mention the fact that the Chaos Gods have been shown to retreat from E's power (See the Duel with Horus in CV) why would they do that, especially when they were so close to killing him? If they were stronger than the E couldn't they have just pumped more Power into Horus so he could resist the assault?
> 
> Chaos Gods stronger than the E? I don't think so, when united equal to his power? Now that seems far more likely.


It all boils down to the fact that the Chaos Gods are pure Warp Entities and cannot manifest their powers any where near full strength in the Material Realm. To achieve their objectives in Real Space, the Chaos Gods have to get others to act on their behalf (Horus and Daemons for example), they themselves cannot manifest. Khorne cannot appear and use 'The End of All Things' - a sword capable of destorying entire planets with one blow. That treat is saved for the Warp only.

Its extremley difficult to compare the power of the Chaos Gods to that of the Emperors, because they are of completely different natures. But I guess we have the indicator of the Chaos Gods causing the Horus Heresy, 'killing' the Emperor and then reigning supreme as a start.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its extremley difficult to compare the power of the Chaos Gods to that of the Emperors, because they are of completely different natures. But I guess we have the indicator of the Chaos Gods causing the Horus Heresy, 'killing' the Emperor and then reigning supreme as a start.


They CP are strong in the warp and no so much in the material realm, having to resort to using daemon hosts to do their bidding.

The same can be said of the emperor, he's strong in the material realm and not so much in the warp, having to use psychic powers to work through.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

On a whole new arguement here but i dont see what all the fuss would be about bringing back any of the primarchs would be. they have already contributed to the imperium and are still venerated by all so i cant see it being a problem from say the inquistions point of view and the high lords were in power when primarchs were still walking in the imperium.
hell, if the golden throne is to fail then maybe it would be a perfect opportunity to reintroduce them as points of inspiration to the imperium. 
wasnt it mentioned that the throne is failing and the astronomican is getting weaker around ultramar so having guilleman return would be spot on and more than likely what GW would do as they love the UM's.
the end times could be interpritated so many ways that its not forced to be the final battle against chaos. like clown said, 40k is like looking back on events and if things are looking back they must have survived up until a certain point so things could get worse to get better than the time of reflection comes about.
so while they could be reintroduced its not forced to be the end of the dysotopian imperium but just the next chapter. 
personally im all for abit of change as the story is getting as stagnant as the imperium but then maybe thats the aim, to create in the fans the same feelings people in the 40000 millenium have.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Malus Darkblade said:


> They CP are strong in the warp and no so much in the material realm, having to resort to using daemon hosts to do their bidding.
> 
> The same can be said of the emperor, he's strong in the material realm and not so much in the warp, having to use psychic powers to work through.


The emperor isn't strong in the material realm. Hes a husk of the person he once was, barely alive if alive at all. His strength is in the warp, where ships use his light to guide by. In the material world, you could go and skull fuck the emperor and he wouldn't do so much as lift a finger! because he is nothing but a skeleton. He doesn't talk, he doesn't move. 

Whereas the Chaos gods hold quite a bit of strength in the material world as well as the Warp. The legions of daemons and the greater/lesser daemons that they get to do their bidding are quite buff. i'd say they hold more power in a physical sense then the emperor does. Directly commanding the things that their armies do. Whereas the emperor just sits.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Commissar Ploss said:


> The emperor isn't strong in the material realm. Hes a husk of the person he once was, barely alive if alive at all. His strength is in the warp, where ships use his light to guide by. In the material world, you could go and skull fuck the emperor and he wouldn't do so much as lift a finger! because he is nothing but a skeleton. He doesn't talk, he doesn't move.



Obviously I meant before he became a skeleton in the golden throne lol



Commissar Ploss said:


> Whereas the Chaos gods hold quite a bit of strength in the material world as well as the Warp. The legions of daemons and the greater/lesser daemons that they get to do their bidding are quite buff. i'd say they hold more power in a physical sense then the emperor does. Directly commanding the things that their armies do. Whereas the emperor just sits.


The chaos powers have 0 strength in the material world, the only way they can influence it is through daemon hosts/champions wielding some of their power. 

Hence why I compared their influence to the emperor's influence in the warp.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> The chaos powers have 0 strength in the material world, the only way they can influence it is through daemon hosts/champions wielding some of their power.
> 
> Hence why I compared their influence to the emperor's influence in the warp.


They have 0 strength in the material world? Yeah that whole Horus Heresy thing was nothing


----------



## gen.ahab

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They have 0 strength in the material world? Yeah that whole Horus Heresy thing was nothing


Actually they don't, they cannot manifest therefore they actually have no power on their own in the material realm, instead requiring a mortal pawn through which to channel their power and influence in order to act on their behalf but they do have an extremely powerful influence.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

gen.ahab said:


> Actually they don't, they cannot manifest therefore they actually have no power on their own in the material realm, instead requiring a mortal pawn through which to channel their power and influence in order to act on their behalf but they do have an extremely powerful influence.


That's still more than the emperor can do! He can't even possess anyone to do his bidding for him! Chaos gods can actually completely possess someone and take complete control over their thoughts and body/actions, am i right? That's exactly the same as being _in_ the material realm, only the vessel in which you are present is different. They are not in the "godly" form which they take in the warp, but a fleshy form that exists in the material realm.

CP


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Commissar Ploss said:


> That's still more than the emperor can do! He can't even possess anyone to do his bidding for him! Chaos gods can actually completely possess someone and take complete control over their thoughts and body/actions, am i right? That's exactly the same as being _in_ the material realm, only the vessel in which you are present is different. They are not in the "godly" form which they take in the warp, but a fleshy form that exists in the material realm.
> 
> CP


The SoB get 'possessed' in a way, spouting religious litanies and getting holy powers no?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> Actually they don't, they cannot manifest therefore they actually have no power on their own in the material realm, instead requiring a mortal pawn through which to channel their power and influence in order to act on their behalf but they do have an extremely powerful influence.


That influence in itself is strength. They may not be able to manifest personally, but their Daemons can (who are arguably part of the gods themselves anyway), they can force Warp Storms, corrupt mortals to do their bidding. Essentially they have more 'strength' than the Emperor does in that regard!

The Chaos Gods have greatly effected the Material Realm in their time (arguably more than any other entities), the Horus Heresy is a prime example of this.



And I mean look at what Slaanesh says in _Soul Hunter_: ‘I turn my eyes to a trillion souls with each passing moment. It is the nature of a god to exist in such a way.’




Malus Darkblade said:


> The SoB get 'possessed' in a way, spouting religious litanies and getting holy powers no?


Well, its by no means the same. And Sisters of Battle are limited in number and strength. Daemons are infinite and limitless.



Commissar Ploss said:


> That's still more than the emperor can do! He can't even possess anyone to do his bidding for him! Chaos gods can actually completely possess someone and take complete control over their thoughts and body/actions, am i right? That's exactly the same as being _in_ the material realm, only the vessel in which you are present is different. They are not in the "godly" form which they take in the warp, but a fleshy form that exists in the material realm.
> 
> CP


Exactly


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That influence in itself is strength. They may not be able to manifest personally, but their Daemons can (who are arguably part of the gods themselves anyway), they can force Warp Storms, corrupt mortals to do their bidding. Essentially they have more 'strength' than the Emperor does in that regard!
> ...
> The Chaos Gods have greatly effected the Material Realm in their time (arguably more than any other entities), the Horus Heresy is a prime example of this.
> ...
> 
> 
> And I mean look at what Slaanesh says in _Soul Hunter_: ‘I turn my eyes to a trillion souls with each passing moment. It is the nature of a god to exist in such a way.’
> 
> ...
> Well, its by no means the same. And Sisters of Battle are limited in number and strength. Daemons are infinite and limitless.
> 
> Exactly


CotE's got it! Huzzah my friend! :chuffed: Chaos gods FTW!

CP


----------



## TheSpore

*On lost Primarchs*

You know ive done a lil diggin in this lost primarch idea for a lil while(lets just i get very bored at work being on LIMDU sux) and well my assesment is this Gw leaving that slot open for players to be creative is wat i call shear laziness anyway there is a story GW touched on back in the old rouge trader days most dont remember and that is there was a 5th chaos god.(he was kinda the balance for why not one god take out the other) now in fantasy it was a god in 40k its was a lost primarch that was raised in the warp and when found by the big cheese he disowned him as his son.wheather not most of that is fan fic im not sure but i do know that the 5th chaos power is in the old fluff and they say the legion that this char took as his was known as the sons of malice


----------



## TheSpore

hey u know if you read the fluff real close the whold story almsot reads like the 2ns coming of christ and the chaos powers are whats in place of the 4 horseman just sit back and think about it for a good min.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

ive just started reading red fury and come across a great passage that ive not seen mentioned when it comes to the unknown legions and if im reading it right then it has just revealed one of the biggest clues to what happened to the unknown legions.

'we cannot disband a first founding chapter!' orloc was aghast.

'we know the history of the astartes. it has happened before,' insisted seth, 'we can take the men among the successors, spread equally. as you said, lord orloc, we are all kindred beneath the armour...'

now to me that indicates that a legion/s was disbanded and the marines spread out amongst the remaining ones and intergrated effectively. 
makes perfect sense to me as losing 2 whole legions without accounting for where those numbers went gets abit hard to do. yeh a primarch getting killed is only one person but tens of thousands of astartes is a hard thing to misplace.


----------



## gen.ahab

You all seemed to miss an important part of my statement. I said they had no power on their own which means without the direct involvement of a mortal vessel they, themselves, can do very little.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> You all seemed to miss an important part of my statement. I said they had no power on their own which means without the direct involvement of a mortal vessel they, themselves, can do very little.


But thats completely irrelavent, simply because mortals do exist and therefore can be corrupted into doing the bidding of a Warp God. It doesn't matter whether or not they need to act through vessels, the point is is that they have this vast amount of influence and power.

The Chaos Gods' influence in Real Space may primarily rely on mortals, but im afraid that that cannot be used as an argument in your favour.


----------



## gen.ahab

My point was that in his prime the emperor had more power in realspace than the CP.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> My point was that in his prime the emperor had more power in realspace than the CP.


Did he really? the evidence probably points in the other direction - Chaos triumphing in the Horus Heresy for example.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Did he really? the evidence probably points in the other direction - Chaos triumphing in the Horus Heresy for example.


There goal was to destroy the Emperor, not cripple him.

Their revenge was carried out, being the scattering of the Primarchs and the corruption of half of them.

So I wouldn't agree that they triumphed in their original goal but yes they did make a large dent in the emperor's power base.

Also, Horus was the physical embodiment of all four of the Chaos powers, he was their champion and the closest thing to them actually being in the real world and yet the Emperor singlehandedly defeated him yet at the cost of his body.

So I would say that the Emperor does indeed stand a chance against the Chaos powers, albeit in the physical realm.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> There goal was to destroy the Emperor, not cripple him.


How do you know? 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also, Horus was the physical embodiment of all four of the Chaos powers, he was their champion and the closest thing to them actually being in the real world and yet the Emperor singlehandedly defeated him yet at the cost of his body.


Indeed, yet were the Chaos Gods harmed in any way by the death of Horus? No. Was the Emperor? Yes.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So I would say that the Emperor does indeed stand a chance against the Chaos powers, albeit in the physical realm.


I think he stood a chance of weakening the influence of Chaos in Real Space and loosening their grip over mankind yes - if he was able to achieve his plans and aspirations.

Each step of his plans (Defeat and Imprisonment of the Dragon of Mars, the Unification Wars, Creation of the Primarchs/Legions, the Great Crusade, the Council of Nikaea, the Imperial Webway project etc) can be seen as small steps ultimately towards the achievement of weakening Chaos' stranglehold and Influence. But his plans were thwarted and he himself indefinately incapacitated.

But now? After his defeat at the hands of Horus, and his 'ascension'. Enduring an existence of constant agony and suffering in order to give Mankind more time, and to protect the species, and indeed the Galaxy from the worst depridations of the Warp. Is it within his power to challenge the Chaos Powers now? If it is, I cannot see it.


----------



## gen.ahab

Ok, first when someone uterly destroys your soul and manages to get away would you consider that to be a win? If so than I would hate to see what you consider a loss. Number two, ultimatly the heresy would be considered a failure on by the gods and a slight victory for the imperium, a very....... very slight victory.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> Ok, first when someone uterly destroys your soul and manages to get away would you consider that to be a win? If so than I would hate to see what you consider a loss. Number two, ultimatly the heresy would be considered a failure on by the gods and a slight victory for the imperium, a very....... very slight victory.


No, you misunderstand. There is a difference between the Chaos Gods and the Chaos Space Marines which needs to be taken into account here.

Here is what I would say:

* The Imperium lost the Horus Heresy (The Emperor incapacitated, most of their empire shattered)
* The Chaos Space Marines lost the Horus Heresy (Horus was killed, The Siege of Terra lost and the Traitor Legions forced to flee into the Eye of Terror.)
* The Chaos Gods won the Horus Heresy (The threat posed by the Emperor vanquished, the Imperium fallen into decadence, and actually benefited from the fighting/wars)


----------



## gen.ahab

With all due respect the imperium was not shattered. Also, even the gods were not pleased with the outcome of the heresy, both their champions failed (Luther and Horus.)


----------



## Baltar

Chaos won the heresy.

The entire point in it being set in motion was that it consequentially lead to eternal war across the galaxy.

The whole concept is explained in "Legion".


----------



## gen.ahab

The point of the heresy was to gain control of the material realm by destroying its one protector (the emperor.) I don't know much behind the gods thought process but I know they believe their plan failed..... whatever it may be.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> With all due respect the imperium was not shattered.


Maybe it was a poor choice of words. But the Imperium was devastated, the wars of the Scourging and the fact that they were able to bring some resemblence of order out of the Heresy is a real credit to the remaining loyal Primarchs and other Imperial commanders. 



gen.ahab said:


> Also, even the gods were not pleased with the outcome of the heresy, both their champions failed (Luther and Horus.)


Do you think the Gods actually cared if two measly mortals were killed? The whole point of the Heresy (from the Chaos Gods' perspective) was to remove the Emperor as a credable threat, and they achieved that.



gen.ahab said:


> The point of the heresy was to gain control of the material realm by destroying its one protector (the emperor.) I don't know much behind the gods thought process but I know they believe their plan failed..... whatever it may be.


Why would you say you know they believed their plan failed? Where is that coming from?

The Daemons Codex states that every few thousand years an event/occurence/object/threat arises in the material realm which requires the gods to unite in order to take advantage of/thwart. The rise of the Emperor was such an event, the gods temporarily united in order to thwart the threat posed by the Master of Mankind - and engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy to do just that. With the threat thwarted by the Emperor's 'ascension', the Chaos Gods backstabbed each other and the Great Game ensued. 

It doesn't matter when the Emperor dies and the Galaxy engulfed in Chaos, the Chaos Gods are timeless beings, and time as a concept does not exist as a concept to them. And as _The Real Sanguinius_ said, if the Cabal's prophecy is true, the galaxy is doomed any way.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

gen.ahab said:


> With all due respect the imperium was not shattered. Also, even the gods were not pleased with the outcome of the heresy, both their champions failed (Luther and Horus.)


I doubt they cared much about Luthor. He was a bit of a minor pebble in the whole avalanche. 

And the Chaos Gods pretty much won the Heresy. Humanity is now on the slow decline to eventually losing. The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Exactly. The 'death' of the Emperor has doomed the Galaxy


This is all assuming that the emperor won't be reincarnated (starchild theory), something I think is very likely to happen, especially seeing as how GW needs to keep the franchise up and running, and the death of the emperor + imperium would be a bad move I would think.

Also I don't see how the imperium has really been affected by the Heresy ten thousand years later, the majority of worlds are hive worlds just like they were pre-heresy, wars are being fought just as they always have, and pretty much everything is the same except the Primarchs are all gone/missing/comatose.


----------



## Baltar

It isn't the death of the Emperor that doomed the galaxy. It was the death of Horus.

It is explained in "Legion". Read it if you want to understand the impact of the Heresy.

If Horus had won the battle, then technically the chaos gods would have lost. Why? Because Horus would have roamed the galaxy, disgusted at humanity for what he had done to his father, and then killed all human life, eradicating man from existence. The galaxy would have been at peace.

He didn't, and he lost. Meaning that the galaxy was thrown into eternal war.

Literally the _whole_ thing is explained in that book. It's also the entire reason that the Alpha legion turn to chaos. Because to "beat" chaos, they have to destroy the emperor and make sure that Horus survives (which is something that they are shown by the eldar).


----------



## Malus Darkblade

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Literally the _whole_ thing is explained in that book. It's also the entire reason that the Alpha legion turn to chaos. Because to "beat" chaos, they have to destroy the emperor and make sure that Horus survives (which is something that they are shown by the eldar).





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also in 'Legion' its never stated that the Alpha Legion give into the demands of the Cabal, so don't assume they did. Given Alpharius and Omegon's actions following the meeting, its not clear what they decided. But most people seem to accept the implication (of Alpharius doing as the Cabal wished) as fact.


Also it's been mentioned the the Cabal probably had ulterior motives.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Malus Darkblade said:


> This is all assuming that the emperor won't be reincarnated (starchild theory), something I think is very likely to happen, especially seeing as how GW needs to keep the franchise up and running, and the death of the emperor + imperium would be a bad move I would think.
> 
> Also I don't see how the imperium has really been affected by the Heresy ten thousand years later, the majority of worlds are hive worlds just like they were pre-heresy, wars are being fought just as they always have, and pretty much everything is the same except the Primarchs are all gone/missing/comatose.


Except instead of an Imperium founded on scientific endeavor, unity, and a secular society you have the current Imperium based on lies, religious intolerance and tyrannical stagnation.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> This is all assuming that the emperor won't be reincarnated (starchild theory), something I think is very likely to happen, especially seeing as how GW needs to keep the franchise up and running, and the death of the emperor + imperium would be a bad move I would think.


Or everything will just stay as it is... 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also I don't see how the imperium has really been affected by the Heresy ten thousand years later, the majority of worlds are hive worlds just like they were pre-heresy, wars are being fought just as they always have, and pretty much everything is the same except the Primarchs are all gone/missing/comatose.


The Heresy essentially signed the death warrant of the Imperium. It may not have happened there and then, but sooner or later the Imperium will fall, thanks to Horus' rebellion.



Baron Spikey said:


> Except instead of an Imperium founded on scientific endeavor, unity, and a secular society you have the current Imperium based on lies, religious intolerance and tyrannical stagnation.


The Baron as usual put it more elegantly than me 



The Real Sanguinius said:


> It isn't the death of the Emperor that doomed the galaxy. It was the death of Horus.
> 
> It is explained in "Legion". Read it if you want to understand the impact of the Heresy.
> 
> If Horus had won the battle, then technically the chaos gods would have lost. Why? Because Horus would have roamed the galaxy, disgusted at humanity for what he had done to his father, and then killed all human life, eradicating man from existence. The galaxy would have been at peace.
> 
> He didn't, and he lost. Meaning that the galaxy was thrown into eternal war.
> 
> Literally the _whole_ thing is explained in that book. It's also the entire reason that the Alpha legion turn to chaos. Because to "beat" chaos, they have to destroy the emperor and make sure that Horus survives (which is something that they are shown by the eldar).





Malus Darkblade said:


> Also it's been mentioned the the Cabal probably had ulterior motives.


Wow, im being quoted from ancient threads as counter-arguments, woop :grin:

But yeah, essentially Malus is right - You cannot take what the Cabal said as infallible.


----------



## gen.ahab

It stated in the DA's codex that the warp rift was created above caliban from the rage and frustration of the chaos gods caused by the two failures of the heresy, Horus and Luther. That means whatever their plan was it didn't go as planed. And @ clown....... Curse you you have ruined the story for me. Lol jk idc Hu-man-it-y! Hu-man-it-y!


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## deathwatch_v

Incredibly interesting thread guys. I think i agree with child and the others on most of the points (i.e chaos winning the heresy), but i always drew parrallels between the 40k story line and the bible. The Emperor being jesus/god and Horus being Lucifer who was at one point Gods #1 angel and then fell from grace because he thought he could do Gods job better. Exactly, within reason, what happens in 40k. Also its said in the bible of the second comming of jesus so i mean it would be in the same train of thought that the emperor would come back.

I personally hope they don't bring back the Emperor because it would ruin the fiction that i love at the moment, and all that time and effort that people put into making 4ft tall Titans at games days will be beaten by a 16 dollar metal model from GW, and i love looking at those things.

I mean someone said earlier about there's 10 000 years to fill in between the HH and now so there's no shortage of potential left in the current story line. Wouldn't it be awesome the fiction that would come out of the aftermath of the heresy, i think that it would be almost as good.

I dunno my thoughts.


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## ckcrawford

I think what will happen is that chaos will tear itself apart before reaching Terra. 

A couple examples...

Arguleon Veq, though Ben Counter has said that it is unlikely, Gamesworkshop could make him an important aspect to the 40k world and basically lead a horde of individuals who themselves are chaos and hate chaos. The destruction of daemon world and the destruction of its armies are two different stories. He would either have to lead and create grand armies by taking one of the bodies of the fallen word bearers and maybe take control of the legion and go from there, or use his tricks like he did in Daemon World

Malice, the renegade god, though not very important to the Warhammer 40k world today brings light to a powerful warp force countering the original chaos gods. for those not familiar hes kinda like a "Loki" of Viking myths, the trouble maker. I think so far hes only in Heroes of the Space Marines.


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## the.alleycat.uk

Hmmm, I like that Aaron mentioned the whole "2 minutes to midnight" ethos as that's been the basis for 40k for a long while [in fact I remeber discussing it with Graeme Mcneill over a few (many) drinks around 7 years ago.

I'd thought that they recently moved the clock to a more "2 seconds to midnight" standing though. In terms of published timelines; until a few years ago, all the dated were pretty far of the end of M41... now a lot of them are right up against the start of M42. IMO they done used up a lot of wiggle room for new/historical but just revealed stuff being in M41.

As for the missing Primarchs, I always had this idea in my head that one of them walked away, rejected the emperor and left for the fringes of human space... but I'm not much of a one for posting my own stuff, just been keen on that idea for a super long time.


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## Leirasapostle

I would love to at least know who the primarchs were even if they didnt give us a real reason for why theire legion didnt make it to the current time period, that way we could have some info but it would still have some mysterious aspects.


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## murdock129

Malus Darkblade said:


> This is all assuming that the emperor won't be reincarnated (starchild theory), something I think is very likely to happen, especially seeing as how GW needs to keep the franchise up and running, and the death of the emperor + imperium would be a bad move I would think.


Just going back to this for a second, not only the Starchild theory could bring the Emperor back, there is the Illuminati's plan too


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## mbatemplar

*My two cents.....*

I think every fan of Wh40k has at some point in time wondered about the lost primarchs, but I believe that only now has Black Library given us enough clues so as to piece together their fate. For ease of discussion, I’ve kept it to just the basic points and have divided up my response into three parts….

a)	The fate of the lost primarchs
b)	What caused their fate (possibly)
c)	The business case as to why Black Library should reintroduce the lost primarchs into the Wh40k universe

Please feel free to pick apart this theory for flaws, in the end, it can only help in furthering our understanding of Wh40k. Like I said, this is just the basic points of my arguments, so if further clarifcation is needed, just let me know. I'll put the business case section into a separate post as this one is too long as it is.....



*Fate of the Missing Primarchs*

There has been a long debate as to the fate and nature of the lost primarchs, with fan speculation on their fate ranging the spectrum from them being dead to one or both of the primarchs being traitor. I believe that with the recent release of the horus heresy books, I think we can safely say that both of the primarchs went renegade.

Consider that there are four possible outcomes for their fates…. 

a) Loyal
b)	Traitor
c)	Dead
d)	Renegade/Exiled

All but one of these possibilities is made impossible by the comments of Dorn as found in the Lightning Tower audio book. In this book, Dorn commented upon the possibility that the missing two legions might be able to help in the defence of the palace. This implies that he believes that they are still alive (and hence not executed), and that they would be willing to help defend the palace – something he wouldn’t have considered if they were disloyal to the emperor. This leaves the loyal / renegade fates, but Malcador’s comments strongly suggest that they are no longer within Imperial space nor associated directly with the Imperial administration (otherwise – Dorn would just order them to help defend the palace).

Further supporting evidence that they were possibly declared renegade can be found in other snippets from the horus series and from other Black Library titles. In thousand sons, when Magnus was called to judgement by his peers, it was remarked that such an occurrence had occurred before, and likewise from the lightning tower/Dark King audio book, that there has been previous instances when a legion has been censured for its actions. 

Additionally, the Imperium’s treatment towards the two legions vs. traitor legions likewise suggests that they went renegade and were expelled. The total expunging of all of the evidence proving that the missing legions existed (including the removal of the primarchs statues) follows the same methodology as what the Imperium does when a chapter goes renegade (ex. Soul drinkers). It should be noted that this methodology differs to how the Imperium handled the traitor legions, in which they merely covered up the primarch’s statues but made no attempt to disavow their existence. To those who think that the legions were disbanded or destroyed, it should be noted that chapters that have died out do not have their records deleted (ie. the black consuls). Taken together, this strongly suggests that at least one or both of the legions went renegade and were exiled from the Imperium on the direct orders of the Emperor in the past



*What caused this fate and how does it fit in with the current fluff?*

We know that the crime required to cause a legion to be disbanded or expelled must be severe, as even repeated extreme behaviour by a legion only garners a reprimand (ie. world eaters or Word Bearers). Other than disobeying a direct order from the Emperor, the only other grave offense that I can think of is the deliberate attack upon a brother legion or primarch, as this would be considered breaking the bond of brotherhood and sowing disunity within the ranks. 

My guess as to the crime in question is that the primarch of the XI legion was *right* about horus being a traitor to the emperor, but he was *wrong* in his timing. 

Consider the following what if scenario?

What if the incubating primarch remembered seeing Horus in the primarch lab standing next to Erebus and associated him with the taint of chaos and evil? Or for that matter, Horus attacking his cannister. He might have thought that it was but a dream until he meets Horus face to face years after being reunited with his father during the beginning or middle of the great crusade. Recognizing Horus for who he was but not wanting to act rashly, he confesses his feelings to the primarch to whom he felt closest to – primarch from legion II. Primarch II is more impetuous than his brother primarch and immediately tries to pre-emptively assassinate Horus, but is caught in the act. He explains his actions as justified due to the fact that Horus being a disloyal son, but at this point in time, Horus is the prodigal child and is above reproach (since his temptation by Chaos happens in the distant future). His brother primarch tries to defend his brother either or is similarly involved in the act, but in either case, the net result of the episode is that both legions are exiled, and the Emperor forbids all further discussion on the topic (alternatively, there are many possible variations of the act -this is just one possibility)



I will now attempt to explain how this scenario could be possible, and after establishing this, why this scenario could be used to explain some of the nagging issues regarding the missing primarchs (such as how their existence could’ve been covered up and the Emperor’s behaviour in the future)

The first issue is how would the primarch of legion XI even know that Horus went traitor?

A. From false gods, it is apparent that various primarchs were in different stages of development and that some were nearly fully formed and cognizant of their surroundings. Horus was being watched by his proto-form self and Magnus regularly talked to the Emperor, and even more to the point, all of the canisters had viewing slots to see into them (or out of them). This means that when Horus struck the canister containing the proto-form of primarch legion 11, and the proto-form started to struggle within, there is every possibly it might have seen Horus and Chaos agent of Erebus

The next issue is while one primarch might have been able to convince his own legion to go renegade, why would the other missing legion primarch go along with it.

A. Primarchs often shared closer bonds to each other, confided in each other, and formed minor alliances with each other against their brother primarchs in various power plays. Evidence of this can be seen with the close bond that Fulgrim / Ferrus, Alpharius / Horus, and Lion /Perturbo all shared. During the initial heresy, it was these close bonds that were utilized to try bring primarchs to either side, or in the case of the Lion and Perturbo, to gain their vote for who would become the next warmaster. Perhaps the two missing primarchs shared a similar bond 

One of the problems of the missing primarchs was how was it possible to be covered up and expunged. It’s hard enough to cover up the existence of a single space marine chapter, how does one cover up not only one legion but two?

A. This is why this scenario had to have taken place in the beginning to the early middle of the Great Crusade. 

The removal of public knowledge of an entire legion would only be possible if the people who knew of it are either dead or silenced. Considering the sheer number of people that served with a legion as auxilleries or were aware of them, it is unlikely that everyone would be put to death. This means a certain amount of time had to have passed. Considering the lifespan of humans at the time (max 150?), if the rebellion happened early, most humans that served with them in the imperial guard would’ve been dead (other supporting elements that served directly with them could’ve been exiled with them) by the time of the horus heresy. The astartes could be counted on to keep silent given the seriousness / shame of the crime, or would be weeded out via natural attrition that would be on par for the life of an astartes.

The current fluff does not negate this possibility, and might even support it depending on the interpretation. Currently, the book False Gods states “feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass (page 284, false gods). If the rebellion occurred early on in the great crusade, then primarch XI would’ve missed the near unification of the galaxy under human rule (and participation in the battles which made it possible – which every space marine yearns for). 

Additionally, this scenario goes a long way to explaining the emperor’s behaviour during the beginning of the Horus Heresy, and the general disbelief that the Horus would ever betray the Emperor. If Horus had already been accused of this crime and found innocent by the Emperor (who is considered infallible), than any future accusation that he was evil would’ve been dismissed out of hand. 

This also explains why Magnus felt so strongly that astropathy wouldn’t be sufficient to warn the Emperor – and that only a sharing of the minds (and visions) would be sufficient proof to sway his father. It also begs the question that perhaps the overly aggressive response of the space wolves and their willingness to attack the thousand sons could be an attempt to stop Magnus from sowing dissension within the primarch ranks as had happened last time when the missing primarchs accused Horus of being disloyal. It also explains why the Emperor did not call off the space wolves even after being confronted by him, perhaps he believed that Magnus was falsely influenced by a warp vision, and still didn’t believe him until word arrived of Istvaan (a similar charge could have been used against primarch XI during his trial).

Are there any other supporting pieces of evidence from the current fluff?

One often quoted statement when describing the lost primarchs – that they fell victim to two separate tragedies is not negated by the above scenario – if one primarch wanted to bide his time but was dragged into the mess by the impetuous actions of his brother, then this would constitute the two tragedies. The first tragedy being the rash behaviour of primarch one dooming his legion, while the second being Primarch XI knowing the future and being powerless to stop it from unfolding. 

The second statement from Malcador stating that “they are lost to us forever” in Mechanicum, again does not negate the scenario. Moreover, it explains why the missing primarchs haven’t returned in over 10,000 years. If the Emperors word (and by extension his decisions) are law and that he is viewed as being infallible, then even if the exiled primarchs were right all along, they cannot return because only the Emperor can countermand his decision. There is also the possibility that the two legions are fighting each other (see business case section for more about this)


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## Commissar Ploss

hmmm...that's one hell of a convincing argument. +rep from me sir. 

p.s. great first post. lol :victory:

CP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I agree with CP, a very convincing and well thought out theory. I must admit it doesn't completely sway me to that side of thinking, but a great theory nonetheless, + rep. :good:


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## Unknown Primarch

throughly like the whole post from you mbatemplar.

what you said really fits into my views on the issue and actually gives some great and compelling points to other sceptical people.

i have toyed with the idea that maybe the actual legions that were made on terra before the reunion of the primarchs had some flaw like the thousand sons and i think the emperors children if i remember correctly.

maybe they werent able to correct the geneflaw in the gene seed from XI as the damage from horus smashing the capsule had a effect that was irriversible because of the warp energy used to transport horus and erebus. so in theory the legion went to pot and only the primarch was left and he lost all faith in the crusade after the loss of his legion and decided to do something the emperor didnt want or like.

i also toyed with the idea that a primarch would disagree with the whole crusade and how they destroyed individual civilisations and forced them to join the imperium and seeing such wanton destruction he had a direct issue with the emperors vision and left the galaxy. tying in with this could explain why the tyranids came to find the imperial galaxy. they could have ate a unknown legion marine, learnt all info of a abundant galaxy and diverted. just a idea and would explain their appearance better than just getting a lock on astronomican.

on a final note. they should reveal them and explain what happened up to the point of being deleted from imperial records but leave their current fate open to future fluff and novels or even a major point in the saviour of the imperium.


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## mbatemplar

Unknown primarch,

That is a really good point regarding whether or not the primarchs share the emperor's vision. The only one we know really wasn't crazy about it so far was Angron, but eventually even he stuck around. Perhaps the benefits of controlling a legion was better than striking out on your own without one (or half of one - as I suspect the terran based elements would stay with the emperor)

I think now would be a good time to continue with the rest of post regarding the business case aspect for reintroducing the lost primarchs (or at least one of them)


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## Moggy3d

i really like coder59`s idea of another race especially the eldar taking one of the primarks as one of thier own imagine how both funkyand chunky their armour will be  MORE FLUFF FOR THE FLUFF GOD!


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## Unknown Primarch

its quite possible for a unknown to be a xeno sympathizer if he come to a world that was multixeno so to speak or even was raised by xenos and then the imperium came and destroyed them and in the aftermath the emperor found a primarch who had caused serious damage to imperial forces that attacked said planet. abit of a angron style but with xenos instead of fellow slaves comes to mind.


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## mbatemplar

There is a snag with the theory of one of the primarchs being adopted by xenos though. That is the fact that the warp storm that scattered them was neither random nor accidental. The chances that all of the known primarchs landed on human based worlds cannot be coincidental. 

It would seem that they were deposited there on purpose so that they could gain either some of humanity's faults or would be put into situtations that would provide a ***** in their armour if you will that could be exploited to turn them. 

This does not exclude the possibility that a primarch sided with a xenos at a later date against the imperium though (alpharius helping the cabal as an example - I know there were other reasons - but just as an example)


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## Serpion5

mbatemplar, I applaud this. You`ve clearly given it a lot of thought. I can`t find any fault with this.


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## MuSigma

*expunged primarchs*

I read this series of posts on one of the most intriguing mysteries in 30k or even 40k with great enjoyment. Sadly perhaps as I was reading the posts, and as a subject I have also had ideas on, an idea struck me. Well more of a memory than an idea, and one I dont think has been touched on by any other poster to date. Sadly in the sense that it is a more mundane possibility then would be likely appreciated by most.

I have been reading 40k for a few years and this subject pops up a lot, but never previously have been able to come up with a reason the missing primarchs and their respective legions would be wiped from the records when no possible crime they could have commited could be worse than betraying the Empire to side with the dark forces of chaos against their own father emperor.

Then I remembered that in our own worlds history that there is such a situation that that would happen, that being two whole legions history being wiped of the records and also in the context of an empire that also had legions that betrayed their emperor and whose records were not expunged. Although only their military records of their victories and achievments were expunged.

The Roman Empire had just such an identical event, they commited a crime worse than treason, so bad they were expunged.

The crime was (big build up) they LOST their EAGLES in battle!!! So great was the shame of such an event that their General, Varus, had to take his own life.

To the Emperor the Legions were invincible they were the very reason the romans had an empire in the first place, up till that point no Roman legion had ever lost there Eagles in any battle before. Treason is nothing to the Romans compared to the humiliation of such a disgrace. 

So in the eyes of a proud empire there is a worse crime than treason - one that sends shockwaves throughout their whole civilisation.


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## Clegane

MuSigma - Not a bad theory the battle your talking about Teutoburg Forest was definitely a disaster for the Romans, although 3 legions lost their eagles not 2. Not sure why Varus took his own life whether it was shame or didn't want to fall in the hand of Germanic tribes. (Or Both, though it was not uncommon for Romans to consider suicide in face of such disaster- Cato the Elder comes to mind.)Still you might be on to something.. the legions were never reformed although Roman punitive assaults did get back the Eagle standards I believe.


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## gothik

i think that all the specualtion in the world is not going to reveal the truth, i was in my 20s when warhammer 40k came about from the success of WHFB and over the last twenty years it has always been changing and it has vastly changed from when i remember it starting, its only recently, especially since the HH series started that we as players, fans amature wirters and the like can actually get to grip with the identity of the primarchs, their personalities, relationships and the like, how thier leigons acted, what drove them to do what they did and why they did it.
either it was pure laziness on GWs part to not go into detail about the lost primarchs or it was used as a game tool for people to create thier own leigon for fun, knowing that it was just that, fun to come up with a leigon and colours and history so that they themselves in a non cannon way can get satisafaction from putting work into creating a leigon of thier own and deciding which way to go, chaos or loyal or the other idea is that at some point it will be told. 
hints in Leigon and the Lightning tower and other such novels here and there say that at some point GW will expand on it and personally speaking Dan Abnett is one of the best to do it although if they are going to do that considersing dans health scare maybe it would be better to let him deal with one adn say Macneil or Thorpe the other imho.
either way the missing primarchs can be used to fuel the imagination or explained all i know is that if this is explained..it will need to be one hell of a good explination.


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## gothik

as an after thought i know that for many years many wh fans (both 40k and fb) believed that Sigmar was a lost primarch on a world never discovered i also know that that has now been poopooed and it was just fan theory but that is what makes the missing primarchs so special in that way, fueling the imagination of the player and fan regardless of anything else.
would i want to se the primarch revealed? i am not sure i want to like i said it would have to be a hell of an explinatuon and one that really works having had a go at creating my own leigon and posting the tales here i have enjoyed it thouraghly and although i know its only HB fluff i did take a lot of care and thought into it as i am sure others do so maybe they should remain just that, unknown brothers whose fates are held in our hands and our hands alone be it the written word or wargaming,


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## WannabeKurt

My personal belief is that the two missing primarchs either A.) got themselves killed along with the bulk of their legion for some truly stupid reason, or B.) their two gene-seeds were brought together to from the Grey Knights (it is stated in the novels, at least, that two different Legions gene-seed can be but into a space marine). Just my two cents.


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## mbatemplar

Part 2

I apologize for not posting sooner – real life has been a bit busy of late. Ideally this post would be split in two, with the pure business case in one thread, and the fluff component here, but I've decided against it as it might be difficult to follow where this post without seeing my previous post above. In light of this fact, I propose that those who are primarily interested in the fluff component of the business case to proceed to the "Proposal in action" section. 

Business Case Proper

When discussing the possibility of the reintroducing the lost primarchs into the Warhammer 40k universe, it is important to construct a valid business case as to why GW should do so. For discussion purposes, I will briefly highlight some points regarding GW’s most recent financial affairs, and will then launch directly into how reintroducing the lost primarchs would be beneficial for the company overall.

GW’s history and current financial issues

Games workshop has a proud and long history of serving its fans. Traditionally, the strength of GW was based on the introduction of board games, rulebooks, and diecast models for a deeper play experience, but has since expanded into licensing for pc games and publishing books via the Black Library. This past decade - in particular the last two years - have brought unique challenges to the company, and it is clear that the traditional strategic patterns of the company are changing. For ease of discussion, the following points have been summarized from GW’s financial statements….

1) This economic depression has been hard for GW, as there has been a dramatic drop in revenue and many hobby store locations in North America closing down
2)	This is troubling because Hobby Stores are the traditional backbone of GW expansion into other regions
3)	Moreover, GW’s revenue stream pattern has been uneven for some time, mirroring that of a roller coaster in its pattern
4)	Games workshop has yet to make a significant breakthrough in the developing world such as latin America and China
5)	Black library and licensing constitutes a small but growing portion of the revenue

Essentially, GW needs to find a way to smooth out its revenue growth, supplement its primary means of spreading its brand Intellectual Property, and seek new ways of expanding into the economically important areas of the BRIC nations. In light of the facts above, I believe that the introduction of the lost primarchs is not only consistent with the strategic and financial goals of the company, but can also supplement and enhance the warhammer universe to the benefit of all WH40k fans. Furthermore, it can be done so in a way that does not fundamentally alter the Warhammer universe, while simultaneously serving to mitigate the criticisms made of said universe

Why the emphasis should be on Black Library publishing/licensing from now on and how the expansion of the lost primarch storyline can tie into the overall strategic goals of the company....


The first part in the answer to this question lies in the financial success of the Black Library, most notably with the expansion of the warhammer 40k universe and the advent of the Horus Heresy series. Not only has the HH series success been a boon of revenue growth during a severe downturn (books are low cost entertainment), but they have also been successful in increasing the Wh40k brand image beyond the traditional tabletop fan base. It should be stated that this does not necessarily need to involve publishing more books, as the success of licensing out to the video game industry illustrates. The Dawn of War franchise for the PC has been instrumental in increasing the fan base and pushing the Wh40k storyline even further. So in this respect, the emphasis on Black Library publishing/licensing accomplishes the goal of smoothing out revenue patterns while pursuing a low risk growth strategy. 

The second part to the answer is that the stunning success of the HH series is a clear indicator of just how much interest there is in the events relating to the origins of the wh40k universe and in the primarchs themselves. People can’t get enough of them, as evidence by the success of thousand sons on the book charts. By broadening the storyline to include the missing primarchs, and by continuing the current dual operating strategy of increased publishing and licensing, Games workshop can attract new and old fans alike. 

Essentially, filling out the missing stories of the lost primarchs is a low risk, low cost endeavour that should yield high financial rewards and will strengthen both the fan base and wh40k IP property.

*Proposal in action – what would this involve fluff-wise?*

Continuing with the scenario given in my original post, this is what I propose story wise...

The Story

The two lost primarchs have been expelled into the regions beyond the light of the astronomicon, forever saying goodbye to their homeworlds and families. Coming upon an undiscovered dark age human empire, the two legions conquer it but cannot agree to rule it in harmony. The formerly close relationship between the two primarchs has become that of a bitter and acrimonious one – each primarch blaming the other for their expulsion. The resulting falling out pits one legion against another, splitting the empire in two, and it has finally settled into a millennia long cold war with neither side being able to overcome the other. Yet, even this far out from the boundaries of the imperium, news can still reach their ears from the occasional rogue trader. The golden throne is failing and the imperium is on the verge of being overwhelmed. This provides fresh impetus to both Primarchs to win the war and rush home to lend their swords and souls to the fight against the coming darkness. The title of saviour of the imperium awaits the winner of the war…

The Primarchs

Primarchs are traditionally either coupled together with opposing traits (Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors) or are based off warrior cultures of the past (Ultramarines, Spacewolves, etc). The two new primarchs can based on historical warrior cultures that are currently underrepresented right now and might appeal to a new fan base in the emerging markets. Again, using my previous post as a base, with one primarch that is rash and one that is thoughtful, let me suggest the following

Primarch XI

Historical Model: Taizong
Culture: Tang China

Personality: Thoughtful, meditative, philosophical
Careful and hesitant in his action, but when the course is decided, strikes forcefully
Unique traits: can use scapulimancy to predict the future akin to the emperors tarot

Primarch II

Historical Model: Hernan Cortez or Francisco Pizarro
Culture: Iberian culture as it was during the reconquista

Personality: Passionate, driven in his absolute faith in his own actions
Unique traits: the power of faith in their cause and themselves can allow members of his legion to overcome odds that would be insurmountable otherwise. On the other hand, their blind faith can sometimes mean that they walk into unwinnable situations regardless of their zeal.

Why this works and what it can provide: 

The two lost legions provide for a third “grey” side – neither for the imperium nor for chaos. Possible questions include…How will the imperium react when it discovers that the two lost legions still exist – will it embrace the renegades or reject them? How will Chaos react? Will Abaddon try to corrupt them or for that matter how will Alpharius react? Furthermore, having two legions that are not imperium based provides for new technology to be introduced into the wh40k universe. This can take the form of either through the discovery of new STC templates or just through evolution from known templates – both legions left before the heresy and their technology has evolved over 10,000 years in a totally different direction (no doubt molded closely on the personalities of the primarchs. As you can see, the potential for dynamic story development is enormous.

Lastly, the fact that the two new legions are based on cultures from regions of the world that are currently underserved by GW leads to the possibility of diversifying the fan base. Far east asia has a large anime and sci-fi fan base, while spanish is predominant in South America, both regions are places where GW hasn’t really penetrated deeply yet. With proper advertising funding plus having a talented writer being seconded to write the books, I believe that new fans could be attracted to the wh40k universe

Potential Criticisms

There are several critics who feel that the lost primarchs are neither required nor needed. That to introduce them would cheapen the wh40k universe. I cannot disagree more strongly. The original need of keeping the lost primarchs unrevealed (for allowing fans to make up their own space marines) is no longer relevant, as it has been superseded by the fact that space marine chapters can deviate so much nowadays from their original founding legion. Furthermore, as stated earlier, this proposal will not immediately fundamentally alter the current state of affairs of the wh40k universe. Both lost legions are mired in their bloody civil war and are still too far away distance wise. However, to those who criticize the wh40k universe as being too depressing, fans can point to this third side as a being a possible ray of hope. Lastly, as suggested above with the introduction of new story dynamics and technology, the critique that the introducing the lost legions would stifle creativity does not really hold up.


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## khorneflake

The second Primarch's name is Gimli, and his chapter was worse off than the Tsons, they were all short, hairy, and had Irish accents (worst of all).
The chapter was called the "Squats".
They were all eaten by tyranids though


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## DeathJester921

Interesting thing I found while browsing on Lexicanum. 

"Earlier background (Codex Imperialis and second edition's Ultramarines codex) less ambivalently states that the records for these two Legions were deleted following the Heresy."
"Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".

* If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank as such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers. "

"# Alpharius was known to be the last Primarch to be found, a fact which even earned him the nickname "The Last". This suggests that all the other Primarchs had been found already.
# 20 statues of the Primarchs were erected in the Imperial Palace on Terra. By the time of the Horus Heresy, plinths II and XI "...had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers [and] their separate tragedies."

* This suggests that the two unknown Primarchs had been found previously and that something tragic had happened. The two Primarchs were "absent" but not referred as "dead". "

"Horus convinced "no less than 9" Space Marine Legions to side with him at the onset of the Heresy, a number also referred to as "fully half" of the legions. When he assaulted Terra, this number was given as 9.

* This also implies, but does not categorically states, that the 9 known traitor legions are all of the legions that followed him into rebellion and that 18 legions were the total number of legions active at the time. A passage detailing Horus' plans for the various legions at the outset of the Heresy mentions by name all 18 known legions. "

For those of you who want to look at this for themselves, heres the link. Link


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## Unknown Primarch

corrax possesses the ability of invisibility.


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## Androxine Vortex

Maybe it would be alright for ONE to surface. I'm not sure about two at the same time.


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## Unknown Primarch

im not sure about them resurfacing but i think it would be a good time to give us some fluff by introducing them in the HH novels at some point. maybe once we get to the emperor stuck on the throne for 10 years we could get some quiet contemplation type book about his thoughts on what has happened up to that point and what he plans to do from here on. 

im all for revealing the unknowns but i dont think they can be brought back to 40k at all. trying to work them back into the story would be a nightmare and would no doubt create untold retcons and spoil things.


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## mal310

I posted the bulk of this on another thread but this seems the best place for it. 

I’m in two minds regarding revealing the histories of the two lost legions. On one hand the current take works on some level I suppose, however I’m generally of the opinion that mysteries are there to be solved. New ones can always be created. 

A number of comments have been made in this post about the fact that if they did it, it would cause major problems with the current lore, changing 40k history, bring total upheaval to what already been written, etc, etc. There have also been comments on the quality of background reveled i.e., the story would be lame, rubbish, not up to expectations, etc. 

I don’t see why either of these opinions have to hold true. I’m sure it’s not beyond the wit of a great author to conjure a story that is not only a fantastic read but something that also does not cause great upheaval with what has already been written. Even if their stories did affect current lore they could be used to greatly enhance the 40k setting as opposed to taking away from it. They could (for example) be used as a springboard for a new race, fifth chaos god, another type of god entirely, an unexplored area of space with unexpected and new things going one. There are many interesting possibilities, none of which necessarily have to effect the current setting in a negative way. I have no doubt that it would not be everybody’s cut of tea. But NOTHING ever is. 

There is also the possibility that there being two legions, each with separate tragedies, that they could do a story on one and reveal their history while leaving the other completely alone to continue a mystery. I don’t see why they have to be intertwined. 

I would hope that Abnett would get one and ADB the other. Both great authors who I'm sure would do the legions and their primarchs justice. I'm sure that both must have spent time thinking of possible stories and I for one would trust their judgment on whether those stories were good enough. On the other hand maby they haven't given it a second thought. Dought it tho.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I believe its been said in other threads at some point but in regards to whether they will ever be revealed (in regards to the Heresy series):



Gav Thorpe said:


> Chances of them turning up? Zero.
> 
> Chances of little hints? Smidgeon.
> 
> Chances those hints will be deliberately contradictory and not very helpful? High (I hope).
> 
> There's never going to be a reveal on the Missing Primarchs, nor should there be. They are one of the Great Mysteries of 40K ™ and should remain that way forever. Whatever story might be concocted for them is nowhere near as cool as everybody's own pet theory, and that's how it should remain.
> 
> GAV


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## Words_of_Truth

What's up with the sound?


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## Commissar Ploss

Words_of_Truth said:


> What's up with the sound?


sound? oh god, you're hearing things again... :hang1:

CP

(i'd imagine there are ads that play for you non-supporter types... that may be where the sound is coming from.)


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## Words_of_Truth

Commissar Ploss said:


> sound? oh god, you're hearing things again... :hang1:
> 
> CP
> 
> (i'd imagine there are ads that play for you non-supporter types... that may be where the sound is coming from.)


No the sound on the video is low and distorted, can't hear him clearly at all. Music is fine but I can barely hear what he's saying.


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## Commissar Ploss

Words_of_Truth said:


> No the sound on the video is low and distorted, can't hear him clearly at all. Music is fine but I can barely hear what he's saying.


oh, the BLTV video. gotcha.


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## Serpion5

_The First Heretic_ quotes them as the Forgotten and the Purged. 

So it would seem one was eliminated, and the other disbanded. The disbanded Legion is also hinted to have been assimilated into the Ultramarines Legion. 

Speculate your hearts out, Heretics.



EDIT: Hey Ploss, have you been promoted? :good:


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## Phoebus

Malus Darkblade said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That quote about how the main fleet of the Tyranids arriving in a hundred years time and requiring the imperium to become 500% more efficient to even stand a chance comes to mind.
> 
> What better figure to inspire the masses into a frenzy and powerhouse than the emperor himself?


"Hi. My name is Lion El'Jonson. I was hidden in the middle of a void-sailing asteroid-fortress until my friend Leman Russ found me. It literally took him 10,000 years to dig through the entire thing to the core. These are our friends, Corax, Jaghatai Khan, and Vulkan. We found one of them in the Eye of the Terror, writing bad poetry; the other has been worked on by xenos for a long time, so go easy on him Vulkan's just been hiding.

We're here to increase your efficiency 500%."



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> * The Imperium lost the Horus Heresy (The Emperor incapacitated, most of their empire shattered)


But, ten thousand years later, the Imperium endures. The theme of the game might be the slow ending of the Imperium (and of Humanity, perhaps) but I would argue that this has far less to do with the actions of Chaos than the mistakes and hubris of Man.



> * The Chaos Gods won the Horus Heresy (The threat posed by the Emperor vanquished, the Imperium fallen into decadence, and actually benefited from the fighting/wars)


I don't know that Chaos won. There's a huge difference between Lorgar imposing worship of Chaos on Humanity and giving the Chaos gods incomparable influence and power as compared to what they have now.

Chaos at best got a consolation prize. They still get to take advantage of Human emotion (a status quo that wasn't going to go away just because religion is outlawed) and they enjoy the sacrifices of the odd cult and occasional mega-ritual (Traitor Legionnaires massacring a world here and there). But they got trumped in the worst way. The Emperor still--indirectly--exerts incomparable influence over Mankind, he still exerts influence over their domain (the Warp), and he steals "votes" from them all the time by drawing the worship of Men.

What Chaos needed was the Emperor dead and the Imperium actually destroyed. Not the Emperor installed in a god-head and the Imperium still ruling the stars.



Baltar said:


> Chaos won the heresy.
> 
> The entire point in it being set in motion was that it consequentially lead to eternal war across the galaxy.
> 
> The whole concept is explained in "Legion".


I could be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that:

1. For Chaos the be defeated in *the immediate time frame* Horus needed to win and the Emperor needed to die. Thus, Horus would burn Humanity in self-loathing and rid Chaos of their "fuel".

2. If Horus didn't win, that meant that the Galaxy would have to endure 10-20,000 years of misery as Humanity died the slow way and the rest of the sentients suffered because of it. *Either way,* though, the question was WHEN Humanity was going to die and HOW MUCH the rest of the Galaxy had to suffer. Not "if".

Thus, to incorporate this with my points toward Child of the Emperor, above, no one "won" the Heresy. All players involved lost to some degree.

1. Mankind lost its greatest (and most terrible) hope of being freed from the shackles of Chaos to the extent possible.

2. The Traitor Legions lost the final battle and were exiled to the Eye of Terror. Certainly none of them run around going "Man, we sure won the shit out of the Heresy!"

3. Chaos lost its greatest chance to wrap up Humanity forever.

4. The Galaxy at large lost because it got stuck with "the cruelest, most bloody regime" imaginable for ten thousand long years.



Baron Spikey said:


> Except instead of an Imperium founded on scientific endeavor, unity, and a secular society you have the current Imperium based on lies, religious intolerance and tyrannical stagnation.


I used to think the same way, but not since the Horus Heresy novels.

The Emperor was no great innovator where the mundane facets of Man's society are concerned. We see in the HH novels (and in other fluff) that bolters, power armour, starships, Navigators, etc. all predated the Emperor. In some cases, the Emperor acted as a multiplier of sorts--his enabling longer, safer voyages through space, for instance. But the idea of a secular society was a lie as well, and a hypocritical one at that, given that the Imperium existed only thanks to a compromise that allowed the Mechanicus--then as arcane and occult in their technological endeavors as now--to keep on with their own religion. In fact, scientific endeavor in the Imperium as a whole was centrally located within the Mechanicus, who, again, had reduced technological gathering, implementation, and innovation to religious ritual.

And ultimately, the only difference between the tyranny of the current Imperium and the Great Crusade Imperium was style and a sense of optimism. People were still brutally made into mindless servitors. Military formations were still doomed to fight until they could no longer do so. Worlds still had no choice in giving up their young to go fight in the Emperor's wars. The Imperium then, as now, was all too quick to pull the trigger on entire populations to get rid of dangerous ideas or dissidents on a large enough scale. The current Imperium, by contrast, has simply reached its apex. If there were more room to expand (or the capability to do so), they would do so.

I mean, look at Macharius--that was just six centuries ago in the game's timeline. And now it's suddenly the end-times? After _one guy_ proved that Mankind still occasionally has the genius, gumption and raw ferocity to pull down a thousand worlds _in less than four decades?!?_

That's why, with respect to the design team and writers both at GW and BL, I take it with a grain of salt when concepts and themes like "the End Times" are revealed. It *is* a business ultimately, even if it is based on creative endeavors, and thus it needs to flow, change a bit, and offer something to make it more enticing to purchase a product. I don't begrudge them that, just as I don't begrudge them for keeping "aces in the hole" for an opposite direction 4-5 missing Primarchs who could return to set things right, for instance, and just as I wouldn't begrudge them for actually USING such an ace.

The most business-savvy line in "Legion", since that novel came up, was Mr. Abnett--through the characters--giving us a 10,000 to *20,000* year range for Humanity's destruction. :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Phoebus said:


> But, ten thousand years later, the Imperium endures. The theme of the game might be the slow ending of the Imperium (and of Humanity, perhaps) but I would argue that this has far less to do with the actions of Chaos than the mistakes and hubris of Man.


It may endure, but its destined to fall. But that isn't the issue, there is no evidence to suggest that the chaos gods wished the downfall of the Imperium. The Emperor was their target, not the empire.



Phoebus said:


> I don't know that Chaos won. There's a huge difference between Lorgar imposing worship of Chaos on Humanity and giving the Chaos gods incomparable influence and power as compared to what they have now.
> 
> Chaos at best got a consolation prize. They still get to take advantage of Human emotion (a status quo that wasn't going to go away just because religion is outlawed) and they enjoy the sacrifices of the odd cult and occasional mega-ritual (Traitor Legionnaires massacring a world here and there). But they got trumped in the worst way. The Emperor still--indirectly--exerts incomparable influence over Mankind, he still exerts influence over their domain (the Warp), and he steals "votes" from them all the time by drawing the worship of Men.
> 
> What Chaos needed was the Emperor dead and the Imperium actually destroyed. Not the Emperor installed in a god-head and the Imperium still ruling the stars.


Whats your basis for suggesting the chaos gods needed the Imperium destroyed? 

Let's look at it from their perspective. The chaos gods put aside the great game and unite rarely to take advantage of a particular occurence, thwart a threat or to universally gain more influence. The rise of the Emperor was such a time, and the result was the initiation of the Horus Heresy, and the 'ascension' of the Emperor. After the Heresy they returned to the great game, pretty much proving that they had achieved their objective.

The Emperor's plans have been shattered, his visions have failed. He rules over a stagnant and decadent empire whose wars do little but to delay the inevitable and yet still empower chaos. The Imperium will fall, it's only a matter of time. And what is time to a being that is timeless and eternal?


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## Phoebus

Because anything other than the Imperium's destruction is nothing more than a zero-sum game for Chaos.

I suspect it ultimately comes down to this fundamental question: do you feel that Chaos wanted something more than it had (in terms of what it was getting from Humanity) at the onset of the Great Crusade?

I do. Ephemeral and elemental, the Ruinous Powers are nonetheless sentient. They just don't strike me as the types to settle down and accept a "business as usual" status quo. The state of the Warp itself is defined by excess: heightened states of emotion reflecting bad things done on a grand scale.

The Emperor's arrival at a most basic level heralded the end of a period that was defined by Chaos' undoing of Human society. Wide-spread practices were introduced that minimized the avenues Chaos had for access to Humanity. There's no comparing, for instance, the preferred state of things--e.g., Cadia in the 31st millennium--with a planet where no religious, occult, or otherwise supernaturally-aimed activity is allowed. Taken to a galactic level, this would be intolerable to Chaos. No wonder, then, that they opposed the Emperor.

This state of affairs has not ended with the Emperor's incapacitation. Galaxy-wide, Chaos is largely denied their due. Sure, it's fueled by the violence that comes hand in hand with the Imperium, but that's nothing compared to (even indirect) worship and the actions that go with it.

Just my opinion, though. I'm not trying to pass it off as fact, since I think that's a nigh-impossibility where much of the 40k mythos are concerned! :biggrin:


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