# Versus The Ork Horde



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Nine​*
Greenskins got themselves a really sick new codex, and there's a lot of abusable builds to be had there...but the one that is going to be seen the most is likely to be the flat old horde.

Orks substitute the number of models in their mob for their LD score, and mobs of 11 or more are fearless. What's worse is Boyz can come in mobs of 30 on foot, or even squeeze 20 into a battlewagon.

Big mobs are often armed with shootas and big shootas...they may be BS2, but a 30 strong mob is still going to land 18 S4 shoota hits and 3 S5 Big Shoota hits on an average set of rolls...that's a lot of fore to absorb and very hard to counter.

What's worse is, where there's one mega-mob, there's likely to be another. So you could sic a pack of speeders on Mob A, but Mob B is just going to turn them into confetti. 

So how do you deal with the green tide?


----------



## Sword Slasher (Mar 9, 2008)

I use strong yet rapid fire weaponary to wittle them down then (believe it or not) charge them! This tactic sometimes works but it's the best one I can come up with. 

What do you think?


----------



## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Well, at 1500pts, and versing:

2x Mek with KFF
2x 30 Ork Boyz
2x 3 Killer Kans
2x Orky Dread
1x Warbuggy
(( that might be all, might not. I seem to recall a unit of Lootas, but I don't remember how many... no more than 10, though))

I was fielding my Vassal Heresy Online Tourney list of

1x Farseer on Jetbike w/ Guide
3x Vypers w/ Shuricannons, Scatterlasers
2x 8 Dire Avengers w/ Bladestorm
1x 10 Banshees w/ Executioner
3x Wave Serpent w/ Stones
2x Fire Prism w/ HField, Stones, Shuricannon


The combined firepower of the Vypers, Serpents, and Prisms took out one complete unit of Orks by the 3rd turn, and dented the second. A bit of antitank from the Serpents (EML, Scatterlaser, Starcannon) put paid to one unit of kans and most of the second as well getting rid of the buggy. Bladestorming and a Banshee assault got rid of the second Ork unit, leaving just an immobilized kan and a few scattered boyz on the field.

Granted, this was very soon after the new 'Dex was released, and I did not have to contend with multiple Lootas or SAGs. What matters most, in my opinion, is the proper use of cover to limit incoming fire, while allowing you to maximize your ARMY'S firepower on one portion of the Ork horde at a time. Taking out a chunk of the army per turn will be your only chance at victory, objective scenario or no.


----------



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

Just like the last edition orks. Ordance template weapons and multiple shot weapons. So Basilisk, Leman Russ battle cannon, hellhound, and heavy bolters. 
Regular marines if they can stay out of range of shoota can hit the orks from 24 inches away and only the ork big shootas will be able to hit back.

So it sounds weird but back up or move to stay out of shoota range and concentrate fire power on one mob and blast it to pieces.

Battlewagon is the orks landraider so anything that will take out a landraider will take it out. Mega Nobs are ork terminators so anything will take out a terminator will take them out.

Since I play orks it is especailly difficult dealing with an ork army. I like to take lobba or kannons big guns crews, a battle wagon and kommando's lead by Snikkrot with 2 burnas. They infiltrate and attack the rear armor of the battle wagon or attack the loota squad and SAG at the back of the army. THat usually buys me one more round of lobba shots to drop on troops.

Either way ork on ork viloence is going to be bloody with a high body count on both sides but is usually fun as all get out.


----------



## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

The mantra "Orkz is neva beetin in battl!" reaches a whole new level with the introduction of their latest codex. How can one deal with a very deadly combination of; cheap units, great hand to hand and great shooting? Who are the Orks good against? Pretty much everything except AV14 vehicles. Gee... that's a great weakness isn't it? 

Point-4-Point, I don't think anything comes close to a generic Ork. They have small range fire with upgrades at both armor cracking and troop raking shots, that can be fired on the move no less. The oppertunity of fleeting remains available with a deliciously vicious charge. They also have a horrendous amount of wounds to screen deadly Power Klaw wielding Nobs who even have an extra wound for grins. Top it off with near fearlessness and a strange yet affective stat-line. Yah... that's not nasty at all now is it? 

But, we're not completely drowning in the Green Tide just yet. We have some things to work with; they don't have great armor. While the whole army could potentially have 5+ Inv Saves, their normal armor is pretty useless, minor AP values will take care of that. Their vehicles aren't that tough, so heavy support can be allocated toward both light AV pen and troop raking shoots; autocannons and heavy bolters over lascannons for Ork killing. Even their vehicles don't have that great of weaponry, so you still have options when it comes to targets. 

They aren't that good against armor. Sure they have a lot of dice, but their AP values are too high to hurt most armor, so heavier troops aren't a bad idea against them. Terminators can sit pretty laughing off most attacks. Higher armor vehicles, while expensive, will usually last the entire game so long as they keep their distance from the PK wielding Nobs. If it's a choice of speed Vs toughness, you want Toughness against Orks. 

You don't need anything special to take down Orks. But what you do need is a lot of everything else. Save points from buying cools expensive toys that are only good against one thing and throw in some extra small arms fire. 

Templates! An Orks worst nightmare. Flamers, Blasts and Ordnance. It's a game of bowling and the Orks are the pins, knock as many of them down as you can. They are a Horde army, even when mechanized and are usually tightley packed no matter what. So what if you scatter? There's more Orks any direction you head.

And to conclude, I'll dust off an old cheesnut from the main rule book; "Concentrate fire power one a single target until it is utterly obliterated, then move on to the next. That is the way to secure victory". If a squad has a hand full of Orks left in it, finish it off!


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

the problem with trying to outrange orks with marines is, while a bolter can reach 24" if you stay still and the shoota is only 18"...the Shoota is also an assault weapon, so the orks move up 6" and suddenly your marines either have to move (and cut their range to 12") or start soaking up huge amounts of fire. 

As for orks vs heavy armour...they are indeed weak against AV14...most of their weapons cap out at S8, with little or no AP1 to be had...but don;t underestimate 15 tank bustas. On average, that's 5-6 hits, which means chances are at least one glance, assiming they didn;t close in with tank hammers and tankbusta bombs.

A Land Raider Crusader can do a lot of damage to orks and sffer very little risk of being destroyed, just steer clear of assault range


----------



## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Some of this has been said, but I'll give my take on it after playing with the new orks for a while and against them a few times.

There are 3 things that Orks don't do well and that a crafty opponent can capitalize on (I'm only mentioning viable ork units here. Things like flash gitz are a little unreliable):

1. Taking out medium to heavy vehicles (AV 12-14), especially heavy vehicles. Orks can field a lot of good str 5 weaponry and so can deal with light vehicles very well but their str 8 weapons are few and generally inaccurate and they've really not got anything higher than str 8. Rokkits are too inaccurate in ork mobs and tankbustas are a point sink that have to have a vehicle purchased for them, so the most effective str 8 weaponry they can field are warbuggies, deffkoptas, kannons, and killa kans which are all fairly fragile. Lootas are another ork option to deal with light to medium armor, and unlike the other options actually have good range, but they too are fairly vulnerable, even in 4+ cover.

2. Taking out heavily armored infantry from range. The only thing that the orks have that's good at taking out heavily armored foes (terminators or other 2+ saves) is the shokk attack gun. Taking it out is very difficult due to the mek's independent character status. If your opponent lacks one of these, you're good to go, provided you can stay out of melee range. 3+ saves are also somewhat difficult for orks to deal with, but the incredible ork massed firepower can still reliably bring down marine squads. In melee, powerklaws generally make up for the orks not dealing with 2+ saves at range very well, so keep your terminators out of melee with orks (shocking, i know).

3. Taking out foes at long range. Orks aren't much of a threat until they're up close. They aren't going to be much of a threat on the first turn, or even second sometimes if you've taken out the right units. Most of their weaponry is limited in range. 18" away from orks is where you'll get hurt the worst. 24" is the max range of many of their special stuff. 36" away all you've really got to worry about are big shootas and maybe some ordnance. The exception to this is again lootas with their 48" range. Seeing as how they do well 1.5 out of 3 things the orks do poorly, they should be a priority target.


Ork armies are very competitive now, but a lot of fun to play and play against. There are 3 basic flavors: mechanized, horde, and horde with fast elements. There are also deffwing armies and dreadmobs, but those are rare and not that effective. Biker armies are a little more common (and I play them fairly often) but very vulnerable to getting shot up. 

*Horde -* The really helpful thing to do against horde orks is to deploy yourself with a denied flank (basically you put the bulk of your army on one side of the table while his size forces him to spread across the whole table, thereby forcing half of his army to have to run an extra turn or two to come to bear on your forces), which works against all horde armies. Focus your efforts on one portion of his army at a time and you'll not have much trouble, provided you're not specialized for anti-MEQ (thousand sons armies just don't handle orks well).

*Horde with fast elements -* This army is IMO the most lethal ork army. The army functions as anvil and hammer, with bikers or stormboyz or other fast units hitting one flank hard on the ork player's second turn or taking out the good anti-horde elements of the opponent's army. The horde elements then follow up, mopping up anything remaining. At worst, the fast elements buy the horde elements a few turns of walking to get within their effective range. Usually it forces the opponent to try to engage both elements at once, allowing both to do their job. The best part about this army is that it isn't affected by the denied flank deployment strategy that works so well against hordes. Simply being able to bring your whole army to bear against your foe is worth it in and of itself.

*Mechanized -* Mechanized ork lists are very common, but there is one reason that I won't use them that most people seem to forget. Sure ramshackle protects the boyz if the trukk gets destroyed, but if someone gets a penetrating hit on your trukk and doesn't destroy it, there's still a forced disembarkation, and 5 of the 12 orks aboard die, on average, neutering the squad. The way to fight mechanized orks is to target the transports first and then go after the squads within.

Whenever I fight orks, I simply prioritize my targets and eliminate threats as they come up. For example, with my tau against a mechanized ork army with 2 big loota squads I deployed my tanks on the right half of the table, leading my opponent to put much of his army on that half, and then I put my army on the other half, resulting in a large part of his army taking an extra turn to get at my troops. First turn I wiped all 20 lootas out of their 4+ cover with my shooting. Then he moved his transports (which were closer to me) and his bikes (which were further away) as far as possible. Then I shot up his transports and the squads that they carried. Then his bikes came up, so in my turn I wiped them out and worked on some of the entangled ork passengers. Against horde armies you can just dwindle the mobs as they get closer (focusing on fast elements first), and then focusing on any that get too near.

As orks, there are certain things that really just kick my butt for various reasons. War walkers with scatter lasers x2 (and guided by a farseer) outrange my stuff and utterly rape pretty much everything orks have. Hellhounds scare me too, though I haven't had to fight one yet. Getting flamed from 24" away by a str 6 ap 4 flamer is scary, and orks have a hard time with armor. Space Wolf terminators with runic charms earn a place in my list for each having an extra wound, even if you get through the 2+ save. If you're shooting at a unit of 6, and manage to get 6 failed saves, you've maybe killed 1 terminator (1 in 6 will fail their reroll). The eldar doom power is pretty harsh too, since orks have to get close. Bladestorming dire avengers into a doomed ork mob are devastating, and the fact that doom allows multiple eldar to shoot at the same mob with the reroll benefit means that big ork mobs get taken down efficiently. 
Other templates are OK but if the ork player spaces out his boyz then each shot if going to kill only 30 points worth of orks or so out of normal mobs. Any anti-infantry weapons with lots of shots are generally good though.

Hope that helps. If I think of anything else I'll post it.


----------



## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Shoot them with railguns. :laugh:
I'm sorry, I had to say it.
But anyways, from an IG perspective, we deal with Ork hordes in close to the same fashion as we deal with bug hordes. Heavy bolters heavy bolters heavy bolters. A few specialty tanks will pretty much win the day in this fight. Leman Russ Conqueror with heavy bolter mounts, Hellhounds, and Leman Russ Exterminators. Any vehicle that can pump out at least 10 shots a turn will work. This is also one of the rare cases where I would recommend mortar squads for your HQ. There is nothing wrong with dropping a couple small templates to complement those tanks. Don't forget the fire support teams too!
Predator Destructors, Dreadnaughts with assault cannons and heavy flamers, and Land Speeder Tornados would work for Space Marines. You don't REALLY have to worry about anti-tank that much. You will most likely have something in your army to take out high AV vehicles already.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Steel Rain said:


> Shoot them with railguns. :laugh:
> I'm sorry, I had to say it.


Actually, Railheads with submunitions: S6 AP4 Large Blast...

Anyway, Culler makes some very good points, as usual. I'm going to have to think about how I play my orks...


----------



## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

what has worked for me lately is to charge them.

it stops them shooting at me and it stops them getting bonus;s.

also if that strategy is a no no.

i hide in or behind terrain away from there shooter troops

and lure them in i then charge out of terrain or from behind it and strike with my first wave a squads in turn 1 then in turn 2 i make my bikers charge in 2nd

this usually works as i have enough troops / transport to footslog it to there looters if my scouts haven't killed them yet


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

...what do you charge 30 orks *with*?

Seriously, their assault phase is more lethal than their shooting.


----------



## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Yup... First you combine the efforts of three or four units, then you charge the remainders with Banshees or Scorpions or Harlies, or really any dedicated assault unit with multiple attacks. The key is to never play Orks on their terms. Divide and conquer. If you find that too hard to do, chances are you are either too new to the game to see the concepts of a strategy through to fruition, or you just let your opponent set up the terrain to favour his own army... or both. 

More than ever, deployment will be the key factor in 40K. Games can be lost before the first turn ever begins.


----------



## Moschaboy (Jan 5, 2007)

i'd like to see them charged by 20 khorne berzerkers with pf champ... hit on 3's wound on 3's with 4 attacks a piece at ini5 i'd find it strange if there were any survivors in the kill zone...


----------



## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Moschaboy said:


> i'd like to see them charged by 20 khorne berzerkers with pf champ... hit on 3's wound on 3's with 4 attacks a piece at ini5 i'd find it strange if there were any survivors in the kill zone...


If the mob is spaced out appropriately, so would I. The orks engaged, usually 10 or so at the most, would probably get wiped out (assuming by some miracle the berzerkers got into cc without losing any models to shooting). This is actually typical ork melee strategy, and I often try to space out my mobs to draw charges from quick units like harlequins. Then the still large ork mob piles in and the next round of combat their foe doesn't get any charge bonuses, the entire rest of the mob gets stuck in, and the powerklaw goes to work. I've used this tactic many times to minimize casualties from a devastating charge and to use the pile in move to get more orks engaged for combat that matters.

There really isn't a good counter to this strategy, because it's a forced choice. Let the orks shoot or waste your charge on only the handful that can be reached. To take care of the problem you just have to focus fire and stick to the usual horde strategies.

However, against 20 berserkers I'd just keep moving back and shooting til there were only a few left, since the zerkers have the same speed as the orks, the orks have 18" assault weapons, and 20 zerkers can't take a transport. Also, 20 berserkers cost 420 points without any upgrades, almost twice as much as a full ork mob (which costs 235 with 3 big shootas and a nob with power klaw and bosspole which is my usual configuration). 2 Ork mobs wouldn't have overmuch trouble with 20 berzerkers.


----------



## Xaereth (Dec 14, 2007)

With Blood Angels I find that I don't often have enough firepower to be able to take 2 huge orc mobs down in the time it takes for them to get to me. Don't get me wrong, a couple Baal Predators will put a decent sized dent in about any mob, but not really enough to make an enormous difference in long run. (that being said, if you ARE using Baal Preds, concentrate fire on a single mob until it's entirely wiped out.)

What I've found that helps get rid of a mob is charging with a couple of attack bikes. Maybe this sounds retarded, because the attack bikes won't really kill many orks (and aren't really designed to), but what it DOES accomplish is holding the orcs for a turn or more. T5 is rough for orks to be able to wound, and if you charge strategically, you should at least survive for one turn without the Nob getting at you. The bike will of course predictably die on the ork's combat turn due to the nob w/ Power Klaw, but then the orks are clumped up, and I have no problem charging them with my Death Company and wiping the mob in a turn. If there's much of a question of their ability to be able to, use an assault squad to back them up, assaulting from a different side.

So what to do with the other ork mob(s), you might ask? Their counter-assault should be able to take the DC out or at the very least bog them down into a war of attrition. I play a lot of assault squads in my Blood Angel's army, and I generally try to hit the second mob with the rest of my assault squads on the same turn my DC charges. Granted, I won't really come too close to wiping a 30-man squad with them, but I SHOULD be able to take them out of combat with the orks in the turn they charge, and if they survive long enough for my DC to wipe the other mob in a turn, DC can turn around and do the same thing again.

Another useful tool I make use of to fight against orks is a Callidus assassin. Big Mek lobbing shells from a tall inaccessable building? Not much of a problem for the Callidus, she'll make quick work of a Mek, and even if she doesn't kill him quickly, she can tie him up for the rest of the game. She's also useful against Lootas, and even an Ork Mob, since her weapon kills orks on a 3+ with a flamer template. Jump into combat, kill a few orks on the edge, and jump out during their next assault phase. Rinse, repeat, til the mob is gone or you have the resources to devote to the mob.

And for those of you who say I can't take a Callidus... sorry. This really isn't the right thread to debate it. It IS legal if you take an Inquisitor, so assume my other HQ choice is an Inquisitor. (which is actually a very helpful tool against weirdboyz, if you give the Inquisitor a Psychic Hood)

In the end, I haven't really had a lot of trouble with even the new 'dex Orks. The most trouble I've had with them have involved a more shooty Ork army (5 high STR low AP ordinance weapons can really put the hurt on my army if applied correctly), but my MM bikes working in tandem with the Callidus can usually do an alright job of silencing them quickly.

One more quick note: an Ork army is often times a momentum army. Furious charge with that many models can do some serious damage. Denying them the charge can win you the game, and NOT denying them the charge can pretty easily lose it for you unless you have a good counter-charge unit.

Alright, enough essay-ing. Hope it helps.


----------



## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

They do have some cool new tricks up their sleeves (new flash gits and all), but the time-tested tactic of "whittle down the right units and make sure you get the charge" seems to work still.
My biggest threat is the 9-man, cybork body nob biker unit led by a warboss and accompanied by a mad dok. (yuck!)
My best gameplan against that unit is my Lashes.

I say, play counter-attack and whittle the greenskins down as much as possible before you hit 'em in assault, using Lash of Submission to prolong the process. Also, it's quite hilarious on occasion to lash the biker unit into trees and then re-lash them even further into them and watch 2 or 3 nobs get busted up in the process; "why are you hitting yourself, why are you hitting yourself?" :laugh:


----------



## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Xaereth said:


> One more quick note: an Ork army is often times a momentum army. Furious charge with that many models can do some serious damage. Denying them the charge can win you the game, and NOT denying them the charge can pretty easily lose it for you unless you have a good counter-charge unit.


This is great advice for any army that can handle itself in assault vs orks.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Seconded. I played against orks recently. Even with 5 man BA assault squads vs 12 strong mobs, it my troops could get the assault they usually wiped or crippled the mob, but if they got the charge it was the other way around. A full strength assault squad can do respectable damage against all but the largest mobs.

But agianst the big ones, watch out for dispersed troops. As mentioned, a canny ork player can spread his boyz to minimize the impact of an assault


----------



## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i charge 30 orks with my 14 blood claws with 3 power fists and a lord with a frost blade

after shooting it with my crusader


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sure, but at that point you;re throwing about a third of your points total against a single unit with less than half the points cost.


----------



## Commander Rambo (Apr 18, 2008)

I play Tau and orks probably are the least of my worries. Typically Orks have a few high str weaponry that can take down av 13. Based on this i create my army list. I generally roll with Railheads which to non Tau advocates are railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker and decoy launchers i.e 1 str 6 ap 4 large blast that doesn't scatter and 6 ap 5 str 5 shots all for 165 pts. I use 3 of these, some mounted fire warriors, kroot and a Centurion config HQ consisting of a Cyclic Ion Blaster and Plasma Rifle. So far i have won 4/4 games in their latest incarnation. Happy Hunting.


----------



## emperor (Apr 2, 2008)

for dealing with hordes of orks i think landspeeders with heavy flamers are good. they will probably die after one go of using the flamer but they will sure take alot of orks with them. and they also will help delay the eventual ork assault hitting your line


----------



## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Commander Rambo said:


> I play Tau and orks probably are the least of my worries. Typically Orks have a few high str weaponry that can take down av 13. Based on this i create my army list. I generally roll with Railheads which to non Tau advocates are railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker and decoy launchers i.e 1 str 6 ap 4 large blast that doesn't scatter and 6 ap 5 str 5 shots all for 165 pts. I use 3 of these, some mounted fire warriors, kroot and a Centurion config HQ consisting of a Cyclic Ion Blaster and Plasma Rifle. So far i have won 4/4 games in their latest incarnation. Happy Hunting.


Mechtau are very tough for orks to beat. Take the fact that orks have a tough time with vehicles and combine it with skimmers and lack of anything else on the ground and it can be very tough for the boyz. Just yesterday I tried my orks against a pure mechtau list, but this is exactly why I take bikers and nob bikers. He shot my big mob and my kommandos to hell and back, but even needing 6s to hit my nob bikers + warboss were throwing 17 power klaws at his skimmers and downing or neutering 1 a turn once they got in range. The guns from the bikes also tore apart a tank if a could get a rear shot lined up. I had my big mek use the shokk attack gun on his fire warriors whenever they disembarked, and despite arranging his tanks such that I couldn't get in melee with the disembarked fire warriors my warbikes had enough shooting to seal the deal. Fish of fury was only taking down 2 or 3 warbikes in a go.

So it was certainly close, and against any sort of ork horde or mechanized army, mechtau or mech eldar wil rape them sideways.


----------



## julio d (Apr 20, 2008)

if your playing loot or capture and hol missions pick an objective and set up so that you can surround a mob then charge from multiple directions, worked today for me against ork in a loot mission where I charged them from the front with a 17 man + champ crusader squad and fromm the back with a 6 man drop pod squad that came in the turn before. the mob had lost maybe 4 boys from its prievious thirty and this charged annihilated it (it also secured the loot marker the mob had in tow and one in a nearby building handing me the game)


----------

