# Horus Stays Loyal



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

So I was thinking about this while I was trying to sleep last night. I searched and found nothing so please bare with me here.

As far as I can tell, there's nothing that says Horus HAD to choose Chaos, he could of stayed loyal to the Emperor. Ferrus Manus resisted, and Magnus did up to a point.

So I ask you, how would the (blank) Heresy have played out if Horus hadn't sided with Chaos?

I think it's fair to assume (or maybe it's outright stated) that Lorgar was the first. So it's now the Lorgar Heresy. I also believe that certain Primarchs would go to Chaos regardless of who was leading. 

I believe those that turn anyway are: Angron, Mortarion, Perturabo, Konrad Curze, and possibly Alpharius.

Now, that leaves Magnus, Fulgrim and Horus who stay loyal in our counterfactual scenario. Firstly, without Horus turning to Chaos, Leman Russ is sent to capture Magnus, not kill him and sack his city. Who knows how the 2nd Trial of Magnus would of went; who knows? But his capture and return to Terra doesn't give him an opportunity to turn to Chaos. Next, Fulgrim I believe stays loyal because his friendship with Horus AND Ferrus Manus would of won out in the end. And naturally, Horus stays loyal because this doesn't work anyway.

So, tell me fellow Heretics, how far off base am I here? I only included which Primarchs I believe turn/stay loyal. If you want, feel free to add how the rest of the Heresy would play out.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Ive been thinking about it as well how it would have played out if Horus would have stayed loyal. It could change a bunch of stuff.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I think it's fair to assume (or maybe it's outright stated) that Lorgar was the first. So it's now the Lorgar Heresy. I also believe that certain Primarchs would go to Chaos regardless of who was leading.
> 
> I believe those that turn anyway are: Angron, Mortarion, Perturabo, Konrad Curze, and possibly Alpharius.


Without Horus most of the above probably wouldn't have rebelled at all. Horus was the glue that stuck the Heresy together, without him there was no direction, purpose or unity. Hence why immediatley following Horus' death the Traitor Legions automatically pack up and leave and then fight amongst themselves after they arrive in the Eye of Terror (although granted this also may have a lot to do with the enroaching Imperial Reinforcements).

Angron always hated the Emperor and seemed to want nothing to do with the Imperium all along. If he would have rebelled by himself, he probably would have done so before Horus was corrupted.

Mortarion's reasons for joining Horus have always been a bit sketchy. We have the corrupting influence of First Captain Typhon, his brotherhood with Horus, possible resentment towards the Emperor for killing the Tyrant of Barbarus (although this certainly isn't expressed in _A Thousand Sons_ when the Tyrant of Barbarus is mentioned to Magnus), and the possible factor of him believing the strong should rule over the weak. Personally I don't think he would have rebelled if Horus hadn't.

Perturabo's reasons for turning are also a bit sketchy. I think ultimately it can be put down to the slow erosion of his character throughout the Great Crusade. But would he have had the reasoning or the confidence to rebel by himself? I don't think so.

Curze is an anomaly here, in that if accounts are to be believed the Emperor was already trying to kill him before the Heresy even began. Him and his Legion were for all intents and purposes already renegades before Horus rebelled, but from their perspective not by their own hands - they perceived themselves as the ones who were betrayed.

Alpharius Omegon (if the implications in _Legion_ are to be believed, although take into account they are not necessarily what happened - we don't know if Alpharius did as the Cabal wished for the reasons that are implied) joined the Heresy because of the Cabal's Prophecy. If Horus wasn't corrupted, then the Alpha Legion would have no reason to rebel, by all accounts they were staunch loyalists.



AgentOrange24 said:


> Now, that leaves Magnus, Fulgrim and Horus who stay loyal in our counterfactual scenario.


Well its now known that Magnus the Red was actually the Chaos Gods' first choice for the instigator of the rebellion (if the Daemon/Tzeentch is to be believed) and Horus was merely their second choice. Aside from that Tzeentch had sealed Magnus' fate long before he even came to Prospero, Magnus was always going to fall to Chaos whatever happened.

Fulgrim fell because his ideals and aspirations were perverted and corrupted. The sword of the Laer would have fallen into his hands regardless of whether or not Horus fell.

And Horus himself. Horus fell to Chaos for a number of reasons. Firstly because his own insecurities (brought to the fore by the Emperor's return to Terra and him being bestowed the title of Warmaster) and ambitions were twisted. Horus, being a man of great and towering Ambition was fearful of what would become of the Astartes Legions when the Great Crusade was over, the Legions would have been disbanded (according to the Collected Visions) and the super human warriors set to policing the Emperor's Realm - This Horus strongly oppossed. Then there was his personal perception that he was not fit for Warmaster, brought about by the failures on Sixty Three-Ninteen, Murder, and with the Interex. His opposition to the Council of Terra 'usurping' the War Council and their demands for tithes off newly won (and therefore unready) worlds/systems. There was the fact that the Emperor's ambition to rule the galaxy was passed onto Horus in the 3 decades they campaigned together near the start of the Crusade, Ambition is a dangerous thing. The list goes on. Chaos capitalised on these weaknesses in Horus' mind and Lorgar's agents brought about the situation where his fall was assured. Have I forgotten anything? Probably!

You also have to remember that the Horus Heresy occured because the Chaos Gods' desired to topple the Emperor. They halted the Great Game and temporarily united, pooling together their power and might in an attempt to incapacitate or kill the Emperor. They decided to strike at him in the only probable way they could, via the Primarchs - and they attempted to corrupt all of them.



AgentOrange24 said:


> Firstly, without Horus turning to Chaos, Leman Russ is sent to capture Magnus, not kill him and sack his city.


Whose to say that the Emperor wasn't the one that actually ordered Magnus killed and Horus/Valdor just reaffirmed that order?

Just my thoughts


----------



## Leirasapostle (Apr 4, 2010)

From what i read i dont think the Emperor was trying to Kill Curze but he was going to bring him in to answer for what his legion was doing.


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

^^^

Thanks for the awesome reply.

I just get the feeling from what I've read (which I'll admit IS limited) that those Primarchs were willing to turn anyway, and influencing them wouldn't be too hard.

Alpharius I wasn't sure about, since the whole Cabal thing.

Now Magnus, I'm aware he was the first (If the demon is to be believed of course.) But the impression I got was that he wasn't willing the betray the Emperor, and that he felt himself to be one of the most loyal. He wouldn't even defend his legion against the Wolves afterall. So I believe he would have accepted his fate with Russ and went back to Terra to await judgment.

Fulgrim never seemed like he wanted to turn, but done so because he couldn't handle killing Ferrus. Without Horus to lead them at the drop site, its unlikely that there would of been a situation where Fulgrim offers himself willingly to the demon whispering in his ear. He may not have stayed loyal, but he wouldn't be in his current predicament. 

For Horus, I don't have anything else to offer there. Excellent post. 

Also have to think, that without Horus to lead the rebellion, its highly unlikely that the Emperor is so horribly wounded in combat.


----------



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

IMO had Horus not have turned, assuming Magnus didn't become the new instigator of a another Heresy (which admittedly would be a lot crappier than Horus' rebellion since not a lot/if any of the Legions really had close ties to them), then he would have stayed loyal obviously since there would be no reason for him to be arrested as he would never have sent the sorcerous message that destroyed the Emperor's wards that held the Imperial Webway. Well, unless his vision of Horus' betrayal was still recieved and believed. Angron would have fought against the Emperor in one way or another, since he obviously didn't respect or really fight in his name, but I doubt he would be able to successfully lead a Heresy of his own. Fulgrim, like CoTE said, would have been corrupted but like Magnus doesn't seem to have enough influence amongst his brothers enough to make them turn, he already failed with Ferrus Manus and with this scenario of Horus being loyal then I'm pretty sure only the outcast or ones who truly hated the Emperor would join him if given the chance/oppurtunity (Angron, Mortarion maybe, etc.) Night Lords, well w/out the distraction of the Heresy then they would have gotten wiped or at least hunted down so not much difference there. Everyone else would pretty much stay loyal (grudgingly in some cases) without a charismatic and psychological genius like Horus.


----------



## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Leirasapostle said:


> From what i read i dont think the Emperor was trying to Kill Curze but he was going to bring him in to answer for what his legion was doing.


Well within the Imperium what would the punishment for what his legion did? Eradication no doubt. Curze would have been executed, or if the Emperor hadn't had the heart to kill him then Curze would remain a prisoner for life


----------



## Leirasapostle (Apr 4, 2010)

murdock129 said:


> Well within the Imperium what would the punishment for what his legion did? Eradication no doubt. Curze would have been executed, or if the Emperor hadn't had the heart to kill him then Curze would remain a prisoner for life


probably true but still it wasnt like he was sending assassins after him at the time.


----------



## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

No the Emperor would have brought him back so they could have a facade of a trial and attempt to look just, righteous and the good person.


----------



## Leirasapostle (Apr 4, 2010)

murdock129 said:


> No the Emperor would have brought him back so they could have a facade of a trial and attempt to look just, righteous and the good person.


I suppose it would put a damper on moral if he just offed one of the primarchs without any warning.


----------



## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Leirasapostle said:


> I suppose it would put a damper on moral if he just offed one of the primarchs without any warning.


The Primarchs were the Emperor's sons (or the closest to it with the exception of the Sensei), I think there would be mass outrage if the Emperor got up and killed one of his sons without serious need to (like the case was with Horus)


----------



## Leirasapostle (Apr 4, 2010)

murdock129 said:


> The Primarchs were the Emperor's sons (or the closest to it with the exception of the Sensei), I think there would be mass outrage if the Emperor got up and killed one of his sons without serious need to (like the case was with Horus)[/QUOTE
> 
> true enough they were obviously revered almost as much as the emperor himself seeing as how many worlds would dedicate temples to different primarchs.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think its quite possible that any of the other legions that were loyal could have taken horus' place as traitor. In fact, it could have been quite possible to have the counter. The traitor legions of now being the loyal legions and the loyal legions being traitor. I remember reading in collected visions about many of the primarchs detesting Horus and even not listening to him/disobeyeing him. Obviously there was a lot of resentment and jelously flowing around a lot of the primarchs that probably thought they should have been warmaster. As such an alternative heresy could have seen Guilleman being tricked into think the Warmaster was trying to destroy the empyream. Or perhaps The Lion's paranoia getting the best of him and openly defying the emperor. The main reason why the Warmaster was chosen, was that he was truly the Warmaster that the Emperor wanted in finishing the crusade, and probably commanded the best legion. 

Horus had the biggest bond to the Emperor. If he could fall, any of the primarchs could have been subject to fall through the trickery of chaos... unless they had all knew about chaos and their scheme somehow


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think its quite possible that any of the other legions that were loyal could have taken horus' place as traitor. In fact, it could have been quite possible to have the counter. The traitor legions of now being the loyal legions and the loyal legions being traitor. I remember reading in collected visions about many of the primarchs detesting Horus and even not listening to him/disobeyeing him. Obviously there was a lot of resentment and jelously flowing around a lot of the primarchs that probably thought they should have been warmaster. As such an alternative heresy could have seen Guilleman being tricked into think the Warmaster was trying to destroy the empyream. Or perhaps The Lion's paranoia getting the best of him and openly defying the emperor. The main reason why the Warmaster was chosen, was that he was truly the Warmaster that the Emperor wanted in finishing the crusade, and probably commanded the best legion.
> 
> Horus had the biggest bond to the Emperor. If he could fall, any of the primarchs could have been subject to fall through the trickery of chaos... unless they had all knew about chaos and their scheme somehow


I was just wondering about this since it seems like to me Horus was the driving thing that kept the others united. Sure others may have still betrayed, but Horus seems like the glue that gave them direction.

And you have to ask, without Horus laying siege to Terra, there's no opportunity for the Emperor to become wounded as he was. He would continue ruling the Imperium.

So how do you see its direction going with the Emperor still running things?


----------



## scubamansam (Aug 15, 2009)

earlier in the thread you said alpharias would of still turned i dont think anyone has said this yet

but alpharias turned becuase the eldar told him if he didnt the univers and the emperer would sufer forever with war and oain but if he sided with horus every one would fall and every ones pain would be ended 

this is from legion


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

scubamansam said:


> earlier in the thread you said alpharias would of still turned i dont think anyone has said this yet
> 
> but alpharias turned becuase the eldar told him if he didnt the univers and the emperer would sufer forever with war and oain but if he sided with horus every one would fall and every ones pain would be ended
> 
> this is from legion


Just depends on if you're taking that as canon or not. You can simply choose not too or you can.

Alpharius and Konrad are big wild cards.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I was just wondering about this since it seems like to me Horus was the driving thing that kept the others united. Sure others may have still betrayed, but Horus seems like the glue that gave them direction.
> 
> And you have to ask, without Horus laying siege to Terra, there's no opportunity for the Emperor to become wounded as he was. He would continue ruling the Imperium.
> 
> So how do you see its direction going with the Emperor still running things?


remember now, Horus was blessed with the power of the chaos gods. Though few there are some primarchs that could have risen to that high in power.


----------



## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

I'll admit I don't know much about the Primarchs, but I do have an angle that I haven't seen here yet.

What would the forces of Chaos have done if they couldn't turn Horus?

It sounds like Horus was the only one that had enough influence to start an open rebellion, or at least one that actually had a chance to succeed. Could this have made the Dark Gods try a more subtle tactic, perhaps just trying to corrupt the Empire from within rather than open Heresy?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They would have never attempted to corrupt the emperor, such an action would be doomed to failure. The emperor could not be turned by chaos. They already had logar and Angron was well on his way to treason before horus went out of his mind. Fulgrim seemed asthough he was headed down the path of corruption from the start. Cruze was already in open rebellion if I remember correctly so they would have formed some coalition perhaps. 

Guillemon and the Lion would never have gone rouge, they may not have liked the choice the emperor made but they both respected his decision.


----------



## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Perturabo turned because the emporor didnt really care about him, He was rival with dorn and even though perturabos force was much better at the things it did The emporor still gave perturabo no attention. So perturabo didnt exactly want to join chaos but in the emporors ignorance it kind of forced him to. If That maks any sense at all.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The turning of alot of the primarchs are a little iffy really. Horus had strong connections to some of the legions, but others openly hated him, and not all legions that liked him turned with him. Both Dorn and Sanguinius were very close to Horus but stood against him. So I think its difficult to look to much into horus's charisma, it won over fulgrim but thats about it

The fall of Magnus isn't considered as a direct part of the Horus Heresy according to records, the burning of prospero and the destruction of the thousand sons is refered to as the Magnusite Heresy in the records.

Pertubo fell because his character was completely wiped out, he exterminated Olympia before he joined horus, and joined supposidly because he feared the emperors response.

I think alot of legions were kept loyal simply becaused they feared the response if they turned rogue. As soon as there was the opportunity to turned rogue with less chance of extermination, or a genuine chance of survival they flocked to the chance. 

I think alot of the primarchs were destined to fail, but ts harder to tell if they were destined to fall. The problem was they couldn't put them back in the box as it were once they let them out. They may have been superhuman physically but they all still had a human psychology, which couldn't maitain the stresses they were under.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Leirasapostle said:


> From what i read i dont think the Emperor was trying to Kill Curze but he was going to bring him in to answer for what his legion was doing.





murdock129 said:


> Well within the Imperium what would the punishment for what his legion did? Eradication no doubt. Curze would have been executed, or if the Emperor hadn't had the heart to kill him then Curze would remain a prisoner for life





Leirasapostle said:


> probably true but still it wasnt like he was sending assassins after him at the time.


_Lord of the Night_ and _Soul Hunter_ make it clear that (according to the Curze himself and the Night Lords) the Emperor dispatched assassins to kill Curze long before the Heresy even started.



AgentOrange24 said:


> I just get the feeling from what I've read (which I'll admit IS limited) that those Primarchs were willing to turn anyway, and influencing them wouldn't be too hard.


No, I don't think influencing some of them was very hard at all - Angron for example probably jumped at the chance, but without Horus would most of them you mentioned have turned? Personally I doubt it, unless there was another that would have gave them a sense of unity and purpose.




AgentOrange24 said:


> Now Magnus, I'm aware he was the first (If the demon is to be believed of course.) But the impression I got was that he wasn't willing the betray the Emperor, and that he felt himself to be one of the most loyal. He wouldn't even defend his legion against the Wolves afterall. So I believe he would have accepted his fate with Russ and went back to Terra to await judgment.


Yes, he percieved himself as one of the most loyal Primarchs. But at the end of the day he had been Tzeentch's puppet before he was even created.



AgentOrange24 said:


> Fulgrim never seemed like he wanted to turn, but done so because he couldn't handle killing Ferrus. Without Horus to lead them at the drop site, its unlikely that there would of been a situation where Fulgrim offers himself willingly to the demon whispering in his ear. He may not have stayed loyal, but he wouldn't be in his current predicament.


Remember that Fulgrim joined Horus quite a while before he had to kill Ferrus though. Fulgrim's grand ideals and aspirations were perverted by the sword of the Laer and Horus' influence, until it seemed that the Emperor was the weak one who had abandoned the Crusade and sought godhood from his secular Imperium. Fulgrim always strove to seek perfection, but realised that the Emperor (who he strove to be like) was not perfect. Arguably the Daemon Weapon was just the cataylst that made him realise that. But when it came to kill Ferrus Manus Fulgrim had a temporary lapse, his bond with Manus wasn't that easy to sever. Also remember that regardless of whether or not Horus had fallen, Fulgrim would have still Cleansed Laern and thus still come into possession of the Daemon Weapon.



AgentOrange24 said:


> Also have to think, that without Horus to lead the rebellion, its highly unlikely that the Emperor is so horribly wounded in combat.


Plausable, although remember that its generally presumed the main reason Horus was able to wound/'kill' the Emperor was because he was blessed by the Four Gods, any other leader of the Heresy probably would have been on the same footing.



ckcrawford said:


> As such an alternative heresy could have seen Guilleman being tricked into think the Warmaster was trying to destroy the empyream.


Trying to destroy the Warp? Its spelt _Imperium_ 



scubamansam said:


> earlier in the thread you said alpharias would of still turned i dont think anyone has said this yet
> 
> but alpharias turned becuase the eldar told him if he didnt the univers and the emperer would sufer forever with war and oain but if he sided with horus every one would fall and every ones pain would be ended
> 
> this is from legion


Yeah it was covered on Page 1. But it wasn't the Eldar, it was the Cabal - a coalition of Xenos races committed to combatting Chaos. Its also not certain why Alpharius joined the Heresy and if he gave in to the demands of the Cabal.



Bloodcuddler of Khorne said:


> I'll admit I don't know much about the Primarchs, but I do have an angle that I haven't seen here yet.
> 
> What would the forces of Chaos have done if they couldn't turn Horus?
> 
> It sounds like Horus was the only one that had enough influence to start an open rebellion, or at least one that actually had a chance to succeed. Could this have made the Dark Gods try a more subtle tactic, perhaps just trying to corrupt the Empire from within rather than open Heresy?


In _A Thousand Sons_ its said that Magnus was the Chaos Gods' first choice for the one to start a rebellion. Now its unlikely that Magnus would have been able to instigate a galaxy-wide rebellion like Horus did, he simply didn't have the influence or resources. Maybe the Chaos Gods initially planned for a more subtle tactic, perhaps they envisioned Magnus assassinating the Emperor? After all he was basically on par with the Emperor in terms of power.



gen.ahab said:


> They would have never attempted to corrupt the emperor, such an action would be doomed to failure. The emperor could not be turned by chaos.


They had probably already tried to corrupt the Emperor long before the Heresy. Looks like he resisted, or did he... 



gen.ahab said:


> Cruze was already in open rebellion if I remember correctly so they would have formed some coalition perhaps.


Not so much open rebellion. Curze attacked Dorn because Dorn was being an idiot, and Curze destroyed Nostramo because he realised what his Legion had become and stopped the stem of the recruits. Most of his Legions were cut-throats, thiefs, murderers, rapists etc. Curze had been forced into being a renegade, he didn't choose the path for himself.



gen.ahab said:


> Guillemon and the Lion would never have gone rouge, they may not have liked the choice the emperor made but they both respected his decision.


Its not like Horus even realised himself that he was going rogue. Initially he thought he was doing was he did because it was the right thing to do, the Emperor had seemingly abandoned and lied to his sons and now sought godhood. Guilliman and the Lion could have just as easily turned from the Emperor as Horus did. Horus was the best and brightest Primarch after all.



Barnster said:


> The turning of alot of the primarchs are a little iffy really. Horus had strong connections to some of the legions, but others openly hated him, and not all legions that liked him turned with him. Both Dorn and Sanguinius were very close to Horus but stood against him. So I think its difficult to look to much into horus's charisma, it won over fulgrim but thats about it


To my knowledge Horus was well liked and respected by all the Primarchs bar Corax.

Regarding Dorn and Sanguinius, yes they were close to Horus. But they were two Primarchs that Horus knew he couldn't sway against the Emperor with charisma alone. Sanguinius was tempted into Khornate worship during the Battle for Signus, but ultimately refused. Dorn was untouchable on Terra. As for Horus' charisma, at the very least it would have won Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim to his cause. And every other Primarch who joined him would have needed assurances etc before they done so, with the sole exception of Lorgar.


----------



## Fluff Master (Nov 11, 2008)

Uh, sorry, but wasn't Magnus captured because he foresaw Horus turning? So, wouldn't he foretell Lorgar turning and it would still happen like that? Unless, of course, because the Emperor doesn't like Lorgar as much as he likes Horus, he believes Magnus and the entire Heresy is stopped before it can turn into a huge snowball. 
Then, following Lorgar's example, I reckon either Perturabo or Angron would turn next and Magnus would forsee this too, so the Emperor would lock them up or something, or, if he didn't believe Magnus, Magnus would turn, Lorgar would be dead, Perturabo/Angron would start the Heresy, then theres only, what 5 legions left who would turn?
They are slaughtered by the remaining 12 loyalist legions. All hands down, the Imperium is broken and possibly demoralised for a long period, and, I dunno, maybe one of the Primarchs who had a strong connection to one of the traitor Primarchs would commit suicide or turn themselves, and they are killed too. 
So, all in all, the Imperium wins and the entire universe is reconquered by the Emperor, and then the Warp explodes or something and the Imperium is destroyed, so the Dark Eldar rise up!!!


----------



## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Maybe the Chaos Gods initially planned for a more subtle tactic, perhaps they envisioned Magnus assassinating the Emperor? After all he was basically on par with the Emperor in terms of power.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not like Horus even realised himself that he was going rogue. Initially he thought he was doing was he did because it was the right thing to do, the Emperor had seemingly abandoned and lied to his sons and now sought godhood. Guilliman and the Lion could have just as easily turned from the Emperor as Horus did. Horus was the best and brightest Primarch after all.


Umm 1st Magnus on Par with the Emperor? Surely you mean only psychically. Physically Leman Russ trumps Magnus and the Emperor trumps Leman so i don't think you could put Magnus as on par with the Emperor. If you were going to assassinate the Emperor i don't think you could do it psychically...you would have to beat him in a fight like Horus and even with the powers of the chaos gods the Emperor won without trying to hard (most of the time).

2nd Horus the best and brightest... I'm not so sure. I realize the Emperor gave him the title Warmaster because of his skill. This is splitting hairs i know but he did fall to the powers of chaos... Sanguineous and Magnus rejected it doesn't that make them stronger mentally? I dunno i do completely agree Horus was awesome but best??


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fluff Master said:


> Uh, sorry, but wasn't Magnus captured because he foresaw Horus turning? So, wouldn't he foretell Lorgar turning and it would still happen like that? Unless, of course, because the Emperor doesn't like Lorgar as much as he likes Horus, he believes Magnus and the entire Heresy is stopped before it can turn into a huge snowball.


The Wolves of Fenris were unleashed upon Magnus because Magnus in one moment shattered the Emperor's plans for humanity by bursting into the Imperial Dungeon via the Webway. And by doing so, Magnus had shown that he had ignored the Emperor's warnings and commands and practised Sorcery.

Its also implied that Magnus only knew about Horus turning because Tzeentch told him, although this is debatable.

Lorgar had fallen many years before Horus had, and Magnus was unaware of it. Being a Psyker/Farseer doesn't mean that you know the entire future, or have it easily laid out before you. Even Tzeentch doesn't know the future infallibly.



deathwatch_v said:


> Umm 1st Magnus on Par with the Emperor? Surely you mean only psychically. Physically Leman Russ trumps Magnus and the Emperor trumps Leman so i don't think you could put Magnus as on par with the Emperor. If you were going to assassinate the Emperor i don't think you could do it psychically...


I meant psychically  - Magnus was almost as powerful as the Emperor throughout _A Thousand Sons_, and if he embraced and was empowered by Chaos I believe his psychic powers would have surpassed the Emperors. After all, Horus (who had no psychic potential, other than he being a Primarch) matched the Emperor's psychic might during the Siege of Terra because he was blessed by the Gods, imagine how powerful Magnus would have been.



deathwatch_v said:


> you would have to beat him in a fight like Horus and even with the powers of the chaos gods the Emperor won without trying to hard (most of the time).


Actually, the account of their duel in the _Collected Visions_ seems to have Horus toying with the Emperor the entire time. Its Horus that is holding back, savouring the moment - not the Emperor. And when the Emperor finally does get the chance to counter-attack, he unleashes _all_ of his immense psychic might directed by his unconquerable force of will, and look where that gets him, unconscious and dying - dead infact if it wasn't for the Golden Throne.



deathwatch_v said:


> 2nd Horus the best and brightest... I'm not so sure. I realize the Emperor gave him the title Warmaster because of his skill. This is splitting hairs i know but he did fall to the powers of chaos... Sanguineous and Magnus rejected it doesn't that make them stronger mentally? I dunno i do completely agree Horus was awesome but best??


Well according to the Emperor he was the best and brightest, that was what I was going off


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The emperor said that horus was the best because he liked him the most, they spent 30 years together with no other primarchs and they had truely developed a really close bond, that no others gained. Of course I wonder whether the emperor was chatting to magnus during this time as "a Thousand sons" suggest that they really never parted in a psychic way. But there is a big difference between being liked and being respected, the primarch's respected Horus, but serveral still resented his title and power. It would have been better to have horus as "primus inter pares" or first amoung equals rather than elevating him above the others. 

I don't think it was Horus's charisma as such that won over mortarion but more that mortarion viewed the emperor as turning weak, which Horus exploited for his own ends. Mortarion had always had a rather orky way at looking at the distribution of power.

Magnus could have easily surparsed the emperor if he was "blessed" in the way horus was, he was nigh on par before. And he probably could have killed Leman Russ if he had wanted to, but he didn't want to kill him. 

I think during their duel both the emperor and horus were holding back for much of the time. The emperor didn't want to admit that his beloved son had truly forsaken him, and Horus because he wanted to savour the moment


----------



## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

I think that if we were going to 're-imagine' the Heresy, but with Horus on the loyal side, and add a little bit of judicious 'plot armor', we'd have something like the following:

1) As has been noted, several of the Primarchs who went to Chaos had beef with the Big E anyway. Whether or not that beef would be sufficient to start a rebellion is debateable; clearly the beef is sufficient to join a rebellion in progress, though.

2) So what we need is someone to start a rebellion. Without the Warmaster organizing everything, its more likely to start in fits and starts rather than with a fell traitorous swoop. The various 'proto-traitor' Primarchs start making more and more trouble, growing further and further from the big E's "plan" for humanity. Eventually, word gets back to the big E, and he needs to take disciplinary action. For our purposes, assume he calls some sort of summit meeting of all the Primarchs back on Terra or something.

3) It seems clear from the current timeline that the incapacitation of the Emperor, but not his death, is what is required for plot-balance purposes. A Heresy where the Emperor survives or one where he is completely killed would destabilize things to an extreme degree. However, without Horus' big siege on Terra, the most obvious method of damaging big E is out. Enter the summit. In this meeting, the Emperor would begin with the criticizing, and the public shaming, and the sanctions of the 'extreme'/unacceptable actions of the proto-Chaos primarchs. This pushes their buttons, and builds resentment. Possibly, someone like Guilliman or Horus notices, and suggests a recess to allow for a cooling off of sorts. At this point, the loyalist Primarchs make a fatal mistake, and decide to all hit up the breakfast buffet together and swap stories. The proto-Chaos primarchs, however, decide to all meet up with the big E 'privately', maybe under the guise of an olive branch or a conciliatory gesture. Crucially, at this meeting, big E retains a harsh, uncompromising stance, and someone gets pissed off. Someone (Angron maybe?) loses control, and ganks big E. The Emperor being who he is, this is unlikely to be immediately lethal, and maybe he then promises retribution against *the entire group*, assuming this to be a plot. The proto-Chaos primarchs realize at this point that their only hope for survival is to finish the job, and they collectively beat big-E down to Golden-Throne condition. They are interrupted from finishing the job by the loyalist primarchs, but are able to escape. 

4) *Now* the primarchs fall to Chaos, as the only way to save themselves and their legions from the wrath of the Imperium. As they flee, they make dark pacts with the unholy powers of the Warp, gaining abilities that nobody else has any knowledge of (because big E is disabled, and the other Primarchs haven't been 'tipped off' to Chaos yet). Using these powers, they plan an ambush at Isstvan III. Maybe they retreat there and make a pretence of a 'desperate last stand'. As the loyalists begin the drop-pod assault to end all drop-pod assaults, Magnus summons up the Mother-Of-All-Warp-Storms, and destroys 80% of the drop-pods in transit. The survivors heroically stand and fight on the planetary surface, holding out against all odds, although several Primarchs are killed in this engagement. The Chaos Primarchs succeed in breaking the back of the Imperial Fleet, and make good their escape to the Eye of Terror.

Anyway, that's what I think we get, if the goal is to imagine a Heresy that turns out much like the Horus Heresy, minus Horus.


----------



## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well according to the Emperor he was the best and brightest, that was what I was going off


I agree but at that time did he know that Horus was going to betray him?...i doubt the Emperor still thinks of Horus as his favored son after he rebelled and took half his sons with him. We don't have to take the Emperors side is what i'm saying. We, with hindsight, can see things differently than the Emperor may have. Looking back is Horus the best Primarch?


----------



## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

Sorry no good at this multi quote thing.


Barnster said:


> Magnus could have easily surparsed the emperor if he was "blessed" in the way horus was, he was nigh on par before. And he probably could have killed Leman Russ if he had wanted to, but he didn't want to kill him.
> 
> I think during their duel both the emperor and horus were holding back for much of the time. The emperor didn't want to admit that his beloved son had truly forsaken him, and Horus because he wanted to savour the moment


Yer, but remember that the Emperor was also blessed by the chaos powers too, but differently to Horus, he knew what he was doing and tricked the gods for that power and wasn't corrupted (whether the emperor got the same amount of power as what they gave to Horus i dunno). I'm just wondering whether even with the blessing of the gods, could Magnus have been better psychically than the emperor? Or would he become stronger, but only up to equal with the emperor? It depends on how much the Emperor stole i guess.

I haven't read collected vision yet (although i really want to) so i don't know how that "Horus v The Emperor" fight goes down, and i agree its probably the more "cannon" version. But as i remember reading it, the emperor was holding back trying to reason with his beloved son, until Horus killed..i think its a custode.. and then the Emperor realizes Horus is lost and Obliterates him. But i concede that was a while ago and it could have changed.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Barnster said:


> The emperor said that horus was the best because he liked him the most, they spent 30 years together with no other primarchs and they had truely developed a really close bond, that no others gained.


Maybe. But there is evidence to the contrary:



The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Chief amongst the Primarchs is Horus, the first and strongest and to the Emperor like a son... He is without peer as a warrior...





The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Horus is his greatest champion and the Emperor bestows upon him the title of Warmaster and cedes to him control of all of the Imperium's military forces.





The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Foremost amongst his warriors was Horus, the first and possibly greatest of the Primarchs, and certainly the best general in the Emperor's host.





Codex: Chaos (second edition) said:


> Horus too, the greatest Primarch of all...


And countless other similar quotes.



Barnster said:


> I don't think it was Horus's charisma as such that won over mortarion but more that mortarion viewed the emperor as turning weak, which Horus exploited for his own ends. Mortarion had always had a rather orky way at looking at the distribution of power.


In regards to Mortarion (in addition to the reasons I gave in my first post) we have the following quotes which may help us:



The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Mortarion of the Death Guard was harder to persuade, but Horus was persistent and wore him down. A new age was dawning he argued, an age undreamed of, with the Primarchs at the head of it. They would rule with might and justice. Horus would need him, need his strength. The Emperor was weak and exhausted, it was the natural order of things that he be replaced.





Codex: Chaos (second edition) said:


> Mortarion Primarch of the Death Guard Legion fully believed that he was the herald of a new age of justice...


Justice seems to be a recurring theme when Mortarion's motives for joining the Heresy are spoken of.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Guillemon and the Lion would never have gone rouge, they may not have liked the choice the emperor made but they both respected his decision.


It depends on whether they obeyed the warmaster when he was not fallen to chaos. If they disobeyed him they could have very well been treated as traitors. Look what happened to Magnus when he disobeyed the emperor. He found a legion that dispised them and told them to destroy them. There are more than one legions that have a vendeta against the Ultramarines. Who knows about the Dark Angels... maybe Leman Russ is more pissed off at Lion El Johnson than fluff suggests.



> "The other primarchs argued amongst themselves. They begrudged Horus his new rank and frequently question his decisions. Some simple ignored his commands or twisted his orders to their own purposes. He quickly learned to trust only a few of his brother-primarchs, those who would follow without question and those he could easily manipulate (traitor legions)" Collected Visions Page 50


Do you call this "respecting his decision?"


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Look what happened to Magnus when he disobeyed the emperor. He found a legion that dispised them and told them to destroy them.


I will respectfully disagree with you on this point. Until _Prospero Burns_ comes out, the only thing we know is that the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus to Terra for justice, not to wipe out the Thousand Sons. For all anyone knows, the Emperor assigned the Space Wolves as a test of Magnus' loyalty and trust in the Emperor; submit to his most hated rival and come back to Terra, and that would prove Magnus' loyalty. Magnus didn't and thus proved himself traitor.

Thanks,
Howard


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

space cowboy said:


> I will respectfully disagree with you on this point. Until _Prospero Burns_ comes out, the only thing we know is that the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus to Terra for justice, not to wipe out the Thousand Sons. For all anyone knows, the Emperor assigned the Space Wolves as a test of Magnus' loyalty and trust in the Emperor; submit to his most hated rival and come back to Terra, and that would prove Magnus' loyalty. Magnus didn't and thus proved himself traitor.
> 
> Thanks,
> Howard


I thought Horus sent a message to Russ saying he was to destroy the Legion and Magnus? And thats why Russ done it.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

At the council of Nikea The Big E made it pretty clear that anyone who disobeyed his edict would be clensed from the galaxy. Theres a quote in both collected visions and a thousand sons which support this. Whether Horus interfered is unclear, Valdor chief of the Custodians and one of the emperors closest advisors was there on Prospero in the armarda, I can't see him not interfering if Russ disobeyed the emperors directive. Horus probably just annoyed russ even more.

I do think the lion had the potential to turn though, His legion did spend a considerable time considering who to join afterall. Whether He would turn to chaos worship is different from whether he would join Horus's "Crusade" look at the night lords and alpha legions


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I thought Horus sent a message to Russ saying he was to destroy the Legion and Magnus? And thats why Russ done it.


According to A Thousand Sons and Collected Visions yes. But both of them can be seen as perspective and interpretation. Maybe "Can you send Magnus a message" means eat the thousand sons meat and bone.

As such we will have to wait till Prospero Burns to fully put this settled


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> According to A Thousand Sons and Collected Visions yes. But both of them can be seen as perspective and interpretation. Maybe "Can you send Magnus a message" means eat the thousand sons meat and bone.
> 
> As such we will have to wait till Prospero Burns to fully put this settled


Pretty tough to call _collected Visions_ a perspective piece, since it is merely a collection of all of the canonized fluff combined into one source. However, I will agree that it is best to wait for _Prospero Burns_ before delving further into this one, as that will be the place where we should have a definitive answer as to why the events took place the way they did, and who was at fault.

Thanks,
Howard


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> I will respectfully disagree with you on this point. Until _Prospero Burns_ comes out, the only thing we know is that the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus to Terra for justice, not to wipe out the Thousand Sons. For all anyone knows, the Emperor assigned the Space Wolves as a test of Magnus' loyalty and trust in the Emperor; submit to his most hated rival and come back to Terra, and that would prove Magnus' loyalty. Magnus didn't and thus proved himself traitor.
> 
> Thanks,
> Howard


Actually most sources claim that the Emperor directly ordered Russ to burn Prospero and kill Magnus. It is only _Galaxy in Flames_ (or was it _Fulgrim_?!) and briefly implied in _A Thousand Sons_ that it was Horus that manipulated the order, although it doesn't actually say that in black and white if I remember correctly.

For all we know Horus (and Valdor) may have just affirmed the Emperor's order to make sure Magnus would not make it off Prospero alive. Although on a side note, actually in the _Collected Visions_ it states that Horus always knew Magnus would join him and betray the Emperor because his 'allies in the Warp' told him.

And as _Barnster_ said, the Emperor makes it pretty clear at the Council of Nikaea (in both _Collected Visions_ and _A Thousand Sons_) that anyone who disobeys him will feel the full force of his wrath.


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Cut because it isn't necessary to quote the immediate previous post verbatim*


Shows what I get for posting at work when i can't go back to my reference material. I would have sworn that it wasn't that cut-and-dry from what I had remembered, by oh well. Well played sir.

Thanks,
Howard


----------

