# Emperor reborn, and nothing



## Archlich (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi,

I just had funny realisation:

Let's say that due to immesurable sacrifices, techno clonning, and pure luck Emperor wakes up, his body whole again.....

YEAH!!!

And funny thing: nothing is going to change, as he must spend all his time on golden throne keeping demons away + guiding Astronomican.
He must still rely on the other people for carring his will in the Imperium

So in the essence nothing is going to change
He might even not be able to stop people from worshipping him


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree, nothing at all will change with the rebirth of the most powerful psyker to have lived within the material realm since it's inception.


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## Archlich (Apr 14, 2011)

Mhm,

Let's look at the Horus Heresy:

As far as we know, Emperor was unable to do any fighting (not sure about supporting his troops in any other way, but there were being beaten terribly...).

He was only able to wake up when Malcador took over (he used this time to attack Horus's BB and get crippled).

So if he was unable to move then (even during SO importand events), he will not be able to move now.

Only upside would be that now he would have plenty of time to fix this damn hole in the basement


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't see your point.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Well if the Emperor is fully restored, then firstly he will be able to speak directly to his subjects, this means that with the correct servants, he could technically carry on his life's work. 
Not to mention fixing the astronomican so that he can move about like he did in the good old days, theres a point actually, how does the astronomican work when say for example, the big E was off at Ullanor? I dunno maybe it was easy for him when he was not also holding off the daemon apocalypse. 

But with his speaking back, he must be able to work something out, hes the damn big E. Maybe another super being (which I sort of doubt, because if for example you were a being of immense power the one thing you dont want to hear is that your going to sit on a chair for eternity)

Maybe he could do some talks with the Eldar and build a human infinity circuit (which sure would require constant fuelling) but could use that psychic conciousness to direct the astronomican. Freeing him up. 

Basically what I am trying to say is that there are many possibilities, don't just write off the big E so readily, as far as old codgers go he could turn you to dust with a thought. 

Also i'm still up on my, gather all the librarians to make one collective conciousness so the big E can mess something up, plan. 

I dunno maybe the big E could have some massive showdown with the hive mind, he could probably manage that if his body was back and his chair occupied.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I agree, nothing at all will change with the rebirth of the most powerful psyker to have lived within the material realm since it's inception.


This


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well seeing as how his mind was the Imperium greatest asset I'd say yeah a shit ton would change.Why? Who created the tomb of the mars dragon,the astartes,the primarchs,the astronomican,and the attempt to utilize the webway? The Emperor. If you don't see where I'm going with this I'll elaborate. In the beginning of the current timeline 40k novels won of the things said is to forget about technology because so much has been lost never to be learned again. Well besides the massacre of the innovative mars priests who else would good at creating things? ding ding ding The Emperor.

With the Emperor made whole he could bring the Imperium back from the brink. Why?Because that's what he did when he DIDN'T have millions of servants and an entire empire already loyal to him. He doesn't have to start be conquering earth. He won't even have to conquer the sysem. Millions of worlds are already his. Sure a couple hundred here and there might rebel or get stolen but compared to what he was looking at when he first started it's not a great position but it's a lot better. Reuninting mankind would no longer be something needing to be achieved only strengthening the Imperium. I would say that as far was the war effort,no not that much would really change as the threats he will face without the primarchs (chapter masters instead).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

But now he has to fight 9 Traitor Legions, some at a ridiculous strength and with allied Daemons, with second-rate Space Marines. If the Emperor comes back, the Gods will be frightened enough to team up and make Abaddon into the next Horus. It's well within their power to do so.

The Tyranids have entered the scene, too, and the Orks have spread themselves across the galaxy and there's more of them every day. The Necrons have woken up and will probably dislike the idea of the Emperor coming in and obliterating their hopes of rebuilding their empire.

But on the other hand, he has Draigo and Mat Ward on his team, and so is probably in with a fighting chance.

Midnight


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> But now he has to fight 9 Traitor Legions, some at a ridiculous strength and with allied Daemons, with second-rate Space Marines. If the Emperor comes back, the Gods will be frightened enough to team up and make Abaddon into the next Horus. It's well within their power to do so.


If the Emperor is revived, nothing would be able to stop him not even the Chaos powers. He has learned a great deal since his entombment and assuming his mind hasn't been fractured all these years, developed all sorts of methods and plans to put an end to their dominion. 

During the HH, the Emperor didn't have time to think, he was constantly in a state of motion but give someone like him a moment to breathe and the time to plan things out carefully (like he did with the creation of the Imperium, Mars/Terra pact, the Primarchs/Astartes, etc.) then it can't not happen. He probably had all sorts of hidden experiments and plans other than the Webway that would have ended Chaos's hold over humanity or at least weakened it.

Also I would not expect a revived Emperor to be xenophobic or to the same extent prior to his _ascension _to the Golden Throne since he now knows the value of an alliance with Chaos-hating alien races (and with the removal of the C'tan as major players, this is an added bonus) and I would even imagine that the Eldar and some Necron factions themselves would make a beeline towards Terra in the hopes of lending their aid to Emperor since they know he is their best chance of removing the taint of Chaos from the galaxy once and for all.

But of course it is within GW/BL's best interest for this not to ever occur or at least not for a long time. 



MidnightSun said:


> The Tyranids have entered the scene, too, and the Orks have spread themselves across the galaxy and there's more of them every day. The Necrons have woken up and will probably dislike the idea of the Emperor coming in and obliterating their hopes of rebuilding their empire.


None of those xenos races are remotely as dangerous as the Chaos powers nor were they even around prior to the HH (excluding the Orks) and seeing how he has dealt with the Chaos powers and continues to do so, I don't see how the Orks/Tyranids/Necrons would pose as a threat to him whatsoever.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If the Emperor is revived, nothing would be able to stop him not even the Chaos powers.


They stopped him before, I see no reason they couldn't do it again.



> He has learned a great deal since his entombment and assuming his mind hasn't been fractured all these years, developed all sorts of methods and plans to put an end to their dominion.


How does one learn while dead? How does one plan and scheme while dead? How does he even learn about the state of the Imperium?

Conversely the Chaos Powers have 2K more years of experience corrupting humans. Plus the power of a much more hateful and depressed empire.



> During the HH, the Emperor didn't have time to think, he was constantly in a state of motion but give someone like him a moment to breathe and the time to plan things out carefully (like he did with the creation of the Imperium, Mars/Terra pact, the Primarchs/Astartes, etc.) then it can't not happen.


He was in a state of constant motion because the Gods were taking him to school. The fact is that the HH was planned from the moment the Emperor started work on the Primarchs. The Emperor couldn't stop them then, he can't stop them now.



> Also I would not expect a revived Emperor to be xenophobic or to the same extent prior to his _ascension _to the Golden Throne since he now knows the value of an alliance with Chaos-hating alien races (and with the removal of the C'tan as major players, this is an added bonus) and I would even imagine that the Eldar and some Necron factions themselves would make a beeline towards Terra in the hopes of lending their aid to Emperor since they know he is their best chance of removing the taint of Chaos from the galaxy once and for all.


1) How has the Emperor learned the value of alliances with Chaos-hating aliens?
2) What is the value? Have we actually seen any benefits in the war against Chaos from the temporary alliances with the Eldar.
3) The Necrons do not fear Chaos. Indeed now that the C'tan are gone they don't really seem to have an opinion on it at all.
4) The Eldar are just as concerned with recovering their Empire from humanity as they are removing Chaos (a task they likely feel is impossible). They would expect a double-cross from humanity and would be first to deliver one.
5) The Emperor's goal is still a galaxy united for humanity. That goal still requires the extermination of all alien species. Any alliance would be short term (relatively speaking) at best. 



> None of those xenos races are remotely as dangerous as the Chaos powers nor were they even around prior to the HH (excluding the Orks) and seeing how he has dealt with the Chaos powers and continues to do so, I don't see how the Orks/Tyranids/Necrons would pose as a threat to him whatsoever.


How has he dealt with the Chaos powers, or continues to do so? He's stuck on a chair trying to hold back a flood of daemons while the Gods play around with the shambles of his empire, shambles they themselves created. 

Further the Tyranids represent a potentially galaxy ending threat. If there are more Fleets coming then they are easily as big a threat as Chaos (probably bigger in direct military terms). Chaos requires humanity to survive, the Nids do not.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He has learned a great deal since his entombment


Has he? How did you come to that conclusion?



Malus Darkblade said:


> and assuming his mind hasn't been fractured all these years


_Draco_ suggests that his mind and consciousness has been greatly fractured, to the extent that he is not even aware what other parts of his consciousness are doing.



Malus Darkblade said:


> developed all sorts of methods and plans to put an end to their dominion.


Would that now even be possible? 



Malus Darkblade said:


> During the HH, the Emperor didn't have time to think, he was constantly in a state of motion


If by _"state of motion"_ you mean: sat immobile on the Golden Throne then sure. :laugh:



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also I would not expect a revived Emperor to be xenophobic or to the same extent prior to his _ascension _to the Golden Throne since he now knows the value of an alliance with Chaos-hating alien races (and with the removal of the C'tan as major players, this is an added bonus) and I would even imagine that the Eldar and some Necron factions themselves would make a beeline towards Terra in the hopes of lending their aid to Emperor since they know he is their best chance of removing the taint of Chaos from the galaxy once and for all.


Thats quite a big assumption, and not that it would make a big difference anyway.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Has he? How did you come to that conclusion?


Assuming he has been conscious then it's hard not to.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _Draco_ suggests that his mind and consciousness has been greatly fractured, to the extent that he is not even aware what other parts of his consciousness are doing.


The Draco series have mentioned several things that are outdated no? I would not imagine a petty Inquisitor being able to walk into the very throne-room to have a chitchat with the Emperor.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Would that now even be possible?


The Necrons seem to have a shot. The Tass. Labrynths and their pillars suggest that they possess the scientific means. 

We don't know what the Emperor was doing during Horus's 7 year push to Terra.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If by _"state of motion"_ you mean: sat immobile on the Golden Throne then sure. :laugh:


He wasn't on it the whole time was he? And by state of motion I was not referring to movement rather I was referring to how preoccupied he was mentally.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats quite a big assumption, and not that it would make a big difference anyway.


You don't think the combined efforts of a newly empowered Emperor armed with all sorts of knowledge, the Eldar and the Necrons would change Chaos's hold over the material realm whatsoever? 

Ahh CotE, ever the Chaos power's servant, one day you will see the Emperor's light lol.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Archlich said:


> Mhm,
> 
> Let's look at the Horus Heresy:
> 
> As far as we know, Emperor was unable to do any fighting (not sure about supporting his troops in any other way, but there were being beaten terribly...).


Not sure when you're referring to: the entire Heresy, or just the Battle of Terra. He didn't fight during the Heresy because he was too busy with his plans, not because he was physically unable to.



Archlich said:


> He was only able to wake up when Malcador took over (he used this time to attack Horus's BB and get crippled).


Yes, powering the Golden Throne requires a massive amount of psychic power. That's why Malcador burnt out in an hour, though lasting that long was a magnificent feat.



Archlich said:


> So if he was unable to move then (even during SO importand events), he will not be able to move now.


If his body is restored, he'll be able to move, sure. He'd have to find some way to keep the Throne powered and fill the "hole in the basement", though.



Archlich said:


> Only upside would be that now he would have plenty of time to fix this damn hole in the basement


It's one pesky hole.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Assuming he has been conscious then it's hard not to.


He hasn't really had the means to learn _"a great deal"_ though. He has been sat immobile as a corpse for the last ten millennia, enduring constant agony in order to allow the Imperium to endure. There is no basis to suggest that the Emperor has learnt anything that could challenge the Chaos Gods.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Draco series have mentioned several things that are outdated no? I would not imagine a petty Inquisitor being able to walk into the very throne-room to have a chitchat with the Emperor.


True, but it remains just as canon as everything else. And for the record, the Emperor allowed Draco to enter his presence - it wasn't that he just strolled past security.



Malus Darkblade said:


> We don't know what the Emperor was doing during Horus's 7 year push to Terra.


From the established lore his attention was constantly focussed on the webway/Secret War. Hence why Malcador was appointed regent and Dorn _de-facto_ Warmaster. We can see more recently from _Deliverance Lost_ that he could barely turn his full attention away from the Webway for a moment, as well as that already having been established in the _CV_.



Malus Darkblade said:


> He wasn't on it the whole time was he? And by state of motion I was not referring to movement rather I was referring to how preoccupied he was mentally.


Yeah I know.  But yes, he was on the Golden Throne for pretty much the entire _Age of Darkness_, only vacating when he confronted Horus on the _Vengeful Spirit_. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> You don't think the combined efforts of a newly empowered Emperor armed with all sorts of knowledge, the Eldar and the Necrons would change Chaos's hold over the material realm whatsoever?


The Eldar and Necrons would not share any significant knowledge with humanity, that much is an established part of 40k lore. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Ahh CotE, ever the Chaos power's servant, one day you will see the Emperor's light lol.


I lost my soul a long time ago, there is no redemption. :wasntme:



Davidicus 40k said:


> Not sure when you're referring to: the entire Heresy, or just the Battle of Terra. He didn't fight during the Heresy because he was too busy with his plans, not because he was physically unable to.


Being "too busy with his plans" made sure he was actually physically unable to, he was confined to the Golden Throne due to Magnus's warning.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Being "too busy with his plans" made sure he was actually physically unable to, he was confined to the Golden Throne due to Magnus's warning.


Ohh, yeah. Magnus fucked everything up. For some reason, I thought he was only on the Throne near the end of the Heresy, which means I need to reread _CV_ :scratchhead:.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He hasn't really had the means to learn _"a great deal"_ though. He has been sat immobile as a corpse for the last ten millennia, enduring constant agony in order to allow the Imperium to endure. There is no basis to suggest that the Emperor has learnt anything that could challenge the Chaos Gods.


I am not saying he's been having lemonade and jotting down ideas on a moleskine this whole time lol but a being as powerful as him should be more than capable of diverting a portion/all of his attention on coming up with plans while keeping everything running.

Just surviving his ordeal with Horus and seeing what happened to his sons was the biggest thing he could ever have learned. And were he to be reborn, he would know what to do and what not to do. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> True, but it remains just as canon as everything else. And for the record, the Emperor allowed Draco to enter his presence - it wasn't that he just strolled past security.


Which would indicate that he is conscious and thus potentially capable of making decisions.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah I know.  But yes, he was on the Golden Throne for pretty much the entire _Age of Darkness_, only vacating when he confronted Horus on the _Vengeful Spirit_.


Yeah I skimmed through Collected Visions, I remembered a scene where he was walking around for a bit. I was wrong I guess.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Eldar and Necrons would not share any significant knowledge with humanity, that much is an established part of 40k lore.


Maybe not now because they don't think humanity has a chance without the Emperor but with him back? Also some of the Necrons are already trading with the Imperium and the Eldar let some humans into their Black Library.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> How does one learn while dead? How does one plan and scheme while dead? How does he even learn about the state of the Imperium?


Just a point, but the emperor isn't dead. If the emperor was dead chaos would have flooded the material realm. Vegetable? Yeah. Dead? No.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I am not saying he's been having lemonade and jotting down ideas on a moleskine this whole time lol but a being as powerful as him should be more than capable of diverting a portion/all of his attention on coming up with plans while keeping everything running.


You could also ask if he is even still sane? Enduring constant and incomprehensible agony for one hundred centuries and being forced to splinter one's consciousness as a necessity would seriously compromise even the Emperor's mindset. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Just surviving his ordeal with Horus and seeing what happened to his sons was the biggest thing he could ever have learned. And were he to be reborn, he would know what to do and what not to do.


Why? Because his sons turned against him and embraced Chaos? 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Which would indicate that he is conscious and thus potentially capable of making decisions.


Sure. But that doesn't mean that there is a solution to the Imperium's situation. The Emperor returning would not guarantee victory, he knows the Chaos Gods are more powerful than he is, they have defeated him once and could do so again.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also some of the Necrons are already trading with the Imperium and the Eldar let some humans into their Black Library.


Some Necron factions do trade with humanity, but they wouldn't be willing to give up their greatest technological secrets; their latest codex tells us that. The Harlequins (it is important to note that is has been the Harlequins rather than mainstream Craftworld Eldar) have allowed some humans access to the Black Library, but that is no reason to suggest they would allow the Emperor; the individual who attempted to conquer the webway and who made war upon the Eldar.

I see what you're saying about pragmatic gain, but both the Necrons and Eldar are simply too arrogant and selfish to share their most prized possessions/secrets with humanity. Humanity which would happily turn around and destory all xenos without a second thought.



gen.ahab said:


> Just a point, but the emperor isn't dead. If the emperor was dead chaos would have flooded the material realm. Vegetable? Yeah. Dead? No.


Depends how you define _"dead"_ I suppose.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Depends how you define _"dead"_ I suppose.


The Emperor has not experienced brain death therefore he is not dead.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Are servitors dead?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Are servitors dead?


Technically? No.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I'd like to propose this question to you all. The Emporer lead a Crusade and banished demons before he was every encased on the Golden Throne. Why couldn't he just simply do as before, whats making him have to sit upon the Golden Throne.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> I'd like to propose this question to you all. The Emporer lead a Crusade and banished demons before he was every encased on the Golden Throne. Why couldn't he just simply do as before, whats making him have to sit upon the Golden Throne.


His near death at the hands of Horus at the climax of the Heresy maybe? :dunno: 

The fact that his physical body was all but destroyed? :scratchhead: 

The need to keep the terran webway sealed and lack of defensive measures beyond his own constant presence?


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I reckon at least one thing would change. He would more than likely be able to revive roboute guilliman and lion'el johnson. Also isn't leman russ supposed to come back when the emporor wakes up?

Also the emporor would be able to do something with the nids, I mean tigurius has been communicating with the hive mind with no ill effects so my guess would be he could convince it to fuck off. Maybe even do something to the astronomican after all that's what is supposedly attracting the nids to our galaxy


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay I've been reading the new Heresy novel with Corax and his legion being at the center. SPOILER ALERT









So it's in the book that the Emperor doesn't have a face. When he meets Corax mentally he is in the guise of a white man with brown eyes and black hair. Corax asks if this is his real face as it's the one he remembers from his birth laboratory through the tube glass.The Emperor remarks that he doesn't have a real face and that he's worn countless throughout the milllenia. While in some books they refer to him as a post human I'm beginnng to wonder if he's really human at all. The only beings in 40k that don't have a discernable appearance are warp entities. Also I'm not going to give anything else away as I haven't finished but the Emperor is aware of A LOT more than we've been lead to believe. Also there's something that happens between the Emperor and Malcador that goes back to the warp entity similarity. He posseses Malcador like a daemon to speak to Corax and Dorn. First time I've heard of him doing this.What's all this mean. I don't think the destruction of his physical body was as much a blow to the Emperor's power as we've been lead to believe. I don't believe from what I've read that being split into different personalities has weakened him. In fact I think it might be natural for him to be more than one conciousness.This is just a theory. I know that the old canon is supposedly out the window,but it seems that something close to it may be coming. What will change if he comes back? Well so far in this novel the Emperor still has the means to create more genetic warriors,maybe even better than the primarchs.Thunder warriors,astartes,primarchs (which yeilded the gentic template for the astartes). Who knows what he could create if he comes back. That's the most dangerous power of a God in my opinion. The power of creation and he like the Gods (if that lab is intact at the end of the book)could create beings that could possibly surpass the astartes and even the primarchs.Possibly.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> What's all this mean?


That he is a very powerful psyker.



Deadeye776 said:


> I don't think the destruction of his physical body was as much a blow to the Emperor's power as we've been lead to believe. I don't believe from what I've read that being split into different personalities has weakened him. In fact I think it might be natural for him to be more than one conciousness.This is just a theory.


The lore from _Draco_ which suggests he has split his consciousness certainly portrays it as a weakness rather than a benefit. The destruction of his physical body did not necessarily reduce his psychic potential, but essentially removed him from the material realm which can be seen as a disadvantage.



Deadeye776 said:


> Well so far in this novel the Emperor still has the means to create more genetic warriors,maybe even better than the primarchs.Thunder warriors,astartes,primarchs (which yeilded the gentic template for the astartes). Who knows what he could create if he comes back. That's the most dangerous power of a God in my opinion. The power of creation and he like the Gods (if that lab is intact at the end of the book)could create beings that could possibly surpass the astartes and even the primarchs.Possibly.





The Alpha Legion are able to steal the Primarch genetic data and the Raptors will eventually be wiped out by Corax according to the _IA_ (or die out naturally - regardless they will all die).

This would then cast doubt that the Emperor would have the ability to recreate any entities equivilient to the Primarchs. What further throws this into doubt is the supposed pacts he made with the Chaos Gods in order to facilitate their creation.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I seee those pacts as like asking a mob boss for money to make it rich. Maybe he didn't have the know how originally to make the warriors he needed. Now I believe he has the knowledge to do so. Obviously this is just a theory but the opposite that he would need them again hasn't been set in concrete either. The Draco novel just brought to light something that has always been the Emperor's burden, the burden of command. The situation he originally had in the 30k has developed drastically. Even if he was in human form I don't believe him being alive physically would prohibit him from missing things and being in agony. As far as we know a great many things escaped his knowledge even when he was physically around. 

While I can see the disadvantage for him being in energy form it has it's advantages. He now in my opinion is even more vigilant of the warp and it events than he was as a physical man since he is now almost fully a warp creature. While abbaddon's forces have swelled greatly so have the Imperium's with more forces and knowledge. You average marine now knows more about the universe than the older ones did. It stated by traitors they are weaker than the originals but they've held back a much more powerful Abbaddon,Daemon Primarchs, Necron,and Tyranid threats as well as the original ork and xenos threats. The Imperium of today is stronger and wiser than that of the original Heresy even as it's rotting away. The have special mission units such as the Grey Knights, Deathwartch, Exorcists,and the females battle orders. The Inquisition is (when used properly) an asset they didn't have before. The Assassins and Imperial Guard are all probably more adept at fighting the myriad of threats even with the lack of innovation which the Emperor's rebirth would correct. 

I believe the Emperor would be capable of fixing the throne to function with pyskers-sacrifices alone given time. The Emperor represents hope. While he may not be thrilled being worshipped as a God, he may have no choice. It would be hard to explain how even a post human could come back from the dead. Maybe this time he could be more open about things as this time the cats already out of the bag. He could bring back a few Primarchs as well (The Lion,Russ,Corax,Khan,Vulkan,........screw Gulliman leave him dead) to help build. Maybe reverse genetically engineer some new ones as well with their DNA samples. I'm not saying everything would be hunky dory. Maybe a civil war or two. Who knows. I'm just saying his coming back would change the battle feild substantially.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I very much doubt he would make any new primarchs as when they were all lost to the warp he didn't bother with even trying to make new ones and just cracked on


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He couldn't because of the massive resources and time spent creating them and because he made a pact with the Chaos powers to create the Primarchs prior to them getting upset with him and scattering his sons all over.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

bobahoff said:


> I very much doubt he would make any new primarchs as when they were all lost to the warp he didn't bother with even trying to make new ones and just cracked on





But not because he couldn't have. We now know he kept the original primarch project in stasis, ready to be reactivated.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He couldn't because of the massive resources and time spent creating them and because he made a pact with the Chaos powers to create the Primarchs prior to them getting upset with him and scattering his sons all over.


That isn't a fact, it's a claim made by a daemon, beings for whom lying is like breathing.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

A Thousand Sons




"_He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of theirdestinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp.

The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one._"


HH:FG

_


'Look around you, Horus,’ said Sejanus. '*Do you think that the science of man alone could have created a being such as a primarch? **If such technology existed, why not create a hundred Horuses, a thousand? *No, a bargain was made that saw you emerge from its forging. I know, for the masters of the warp are as much your father as the Emperor,’

'No!' shouted Horas. 'I won't believe you. The pri-marchs are my brothers, the Emperor's sons created from his own flesh and blood and each a part of him.'
'Each a part of him, yes, but where did such power come from? He bargained with the gods of the warp for a measure of their power. That is what he invested in you, not his paltry human power.'

The gods of the warp? What are you talking about, Sejanus?'

The entities whose realm is being destroyed by the Emperor,' said Sejanus. 'Intelligences, xenos creatures, gods? Does it matter what terminology we use for them? They have such incredible power that they might as well be gods by your reckoning. They command the secrets of life and death and all that lies between. Experience, change, war and decay, they are all are part of the endless cycle of existence, and the gods of the warp hold dominion over them all. Their power flows through your veins and bestows incredible abilities upon you. The Emperor has long known of them and he came to them many centuries ago, offering friendship and devotion.'

'He would never do such a thing!' denied Horas.

"You underestimate his lust for power, my friend,’ said Sejanus as they made their way back towards the steps that led down to the laboratory floor. 'The gods of the warp are powerful, but they do not understand this material universe, and the Emperor was able to betray them, stealing away their power for himself. In creating you, he passed on but a tiny measure of that power.'

Horas felt his breath come in short, painful bursts. He wanted to deny Sejanus's words, but part of him knew that this was no lie. Like any man, his future was uncertain, but his past had always been his own. His glories and life had been forged with his own two hands, but even now, they were being stripped away from him by the Emperor's treachery.

'So we are tainted,’ whispered Horas. 'All of us.'

Tainted, no,’ said Sejanus, shaking his head. 'The power of the warp simply is. Used wisely and by a man of power it can be a weapon like no other. It can be mastered and it can be a powerful tool for one with the will to use it,’

Then why did the Emperor not use it well?'

'Because he was weak,’ said Sejanus, leaning in close to Horas. 'Unlike you, he lacked the will to master it, and the gods of the warp do not take kindly to those who betray them. The Emperor had taken a measure of their power for himself, but they struck back at him,

'How?'

You will see. With the power he stole from them, he was too powerful for them to attack directly, but they had foreseen a measure of his plans and they struck at what he needed most to realise those plans,’

The primarchs?'

The primarchs,’ agreed Sejanus, walking back down the length of walkway. Horas heard distant sirens blare and felt the air within the chamber become more agitated, as if a cold electric current whipped from molecule to molecule.
_


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Malus, every word you quote was spoken by a daemon. They might actually be true, but that's not the way to bet. They certainly cannot be considered facts without independent corroboration.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No. TS was from Magnus.

The second was from Sejanus.

What would be proof to you? If the Emperor himself admitted it? The Chaos powers? But they are the creators of Daemons. 

We have Magnus, his son and we have an Astartes both saying he did.

And look at the part I bolded. It makes perfect sense.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_Malus_ is right. The Emperor kept the genetic template of the Primarchs, but there was more to creating the Primarchs than that. The pact with the Chaos Gods to invest the very essence of the warp into the Primarchs was just as vital (if not more so) as the centuries of scientific/genetic research conducted by the Emperor.

The daemon from _False Gods_ makes a very good point: If the above wasn't the case why did the Emepror only create twenty Primarchs?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh Sej was a Daemon? My bad then but doesn't change the bolded part.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The daemon from _False Gods_ makes a very good point: If the above wasn't the case why did the Emepror only create twenty Primarchs?


It's a good point, but the Emperor had his hands full with 20 independent, powerful sons. Any more and I think he would've pulled his hair out. Not saying that Chaos wasn't involved in the Primarchs' creation, but perhaps 20 was enough.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I agree with Davidicus. 20 generals is enough. Who would follow a chain of command where an entire army is equal. The Emperor made his army gentically superior by making his generals primarchs and the rank and file their sons. 20 legions seemed like a lot when you throw in the IG and Navy. Also he may have wanted to avoid anyone getting too powerful,obvioulsy didn't give this enough thought. By the way, when Horus faces the great Unclean One on Davin's moon he says that he's faced off against the Emperor before. That the Emperor is scared to face these creatures is bullshit. He's got the Holocaust move that can destroy their physical as we as warp bodies.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> They stopped him before, I see no reason they couldn't do it again.


It's important to note that Chaos had the element of surprise and betrayal without which they would necessarily had much success. Even with the success of Chaos, it's biggest success was wounding the emperor before it fled back to the eye.

Move forward, the emperor is reborn. He can rally troops, create new space marine legions, develop some of the projects he was working on as the heresy got started.

This would be a big deal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cheeto said:


> It's important to note that Chaos had the element of surprise and betrayal without which they would necessarily had much success. Even with the success of Chaos, it's biggest success was wounding the emperor before it fled back to the eye.


You are referring to the mortal Legions allied to Horus as _"Chaos"_ here and not the Dark Gods themselves...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I've heard both that when he hit Horus with the psyker Rocky Balboa shot the gods themselves were possessing Horus and fled in terror. In some it's that once they saw the shot coming they withdrew their power as he was about to be Vladamir Doneski.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I was referring to the lack of differentiation that some people do not make in regards to _Chaos_ and the _followers of Chaos_, and how for all intents and purposes they are entirely seperate factions with seperate purposes and goals.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Agreed. I think though that He was referring to the Chaos Gods inside of Horus fleeing when the Emperor finally found his balls to start fighting like a man.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't get why the Emperor couldn't at least partially heal his body when he has demonstrated the ability to heal other people's bodys.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You are referring to the mortal Legions allied to Horus as _"Chaos"_ here and not the Dark Gods themselves...


Yes and no. It's just a story and as we have seen, sometimes a flawed story but weren't the gods of chaos working through the traitor legions, rolling them... influencing them as they went. Certainly not the chaos gods directly but more or less their plans.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The daemon from _False Gods_ makes a very good point: If the above wasn't the case why did the Emepror only create twenty Primarchs?



I think I know this one. Aside from the emperor having his hands full with just 20 patriarchs, GW certainly has it hands full with 20. Imagine trying to write the HH series while keeping track of and writing stories for 1000 legions :grin:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

randian said:


> I don't get why the Emperor couldn't at least partially heal his body when he has demonstrated the ability to heal other people's bodys.


Maybe he didn't/doesn't want to. Grief, a sense of loss, guilt, etc. and not wanting to lead anymore probably being his reasons.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Maybe he didn't/doesn't want to. Grief, a sense of loss, guilt, etc. and not wanting to lead anymore probably being his reasons.


Could be even more simple than that. Everything takes energy and the emperor already being wounded didn't have the energy to heal himself.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor has been doing things that requires more energy than self-healing for ten thousand years nonstop. 

The words energy and finite being in the same sentence as the Emperor of Mankind results in an error 404.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Emperor has been doing things that requires more energy than self-healing for ten thousand years nonstop.
> 
> The words energy and finite being in the same sentence as the Emperor of Mankind results in an error 404.


Maybe, but then again, if the emperor had infinite energy, nothing could have hurt him in the first place and the patriarchs would have been nothing more than a waste of time. He was seriously wounded, and that saps energy. It's like requiring a doctor to give himself double by-pass surgery because he's a surgeon... Just doesn;t work that way.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

If the emperor wakes up i feel like the lost primarchs would return to do his bidding which i think would make a significant difference (hey while the big E's at it why not make more primarchs!)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The lost Primarchs are dead. One was executed by the Wolves + supposedly with the help of the Word Bearers. The other no one knows but most likely dead as well by the hands of the Emperor or time.



cheeto said:


> Maybe, but then again, if the emperor had infinite energy, nothing could have hurt him in the first place


Not really. I don't want to say he has infinite energy (even though I did), but close to it? 



cheeto said:


> and the patriarchs would have been nothing more than a waste of time. He was seriously wounded, and that saps energy. It's like requiring a doctor to give himself double by-pass surgery because he's a surgeon... Just doesn;t work that way.


Patriarchs? Primarchs you mean. I didn't get this part though.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The lost Primarchs are dead. One was executed by the Wolves + supposedly with the help of the Word Bearers. The other no one knows but most likely dead as well by the hands of the Emperor or time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol, totally busted and probably proof it's time for me to hit the rack! :laugh:


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

well i thought it was a good idea but im not the big E


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Actually if you read Deliverance Lost SPOILER ALERT







There is apparently some kind of ultimate sanction that everyone is aware of the Emperor having. If you saw First Heretic where he dropped the entire legion to a knee including the primarch you know his control over the astartes and primarchs is total. I believe it's something genetic like a fail safe. I see the Raven Guard and their Primarch to be the most pragmatic of the Primarchs. He knows his abilities and his limits and doesn't push it unless necessary. Between the Raven Guard it's commonly believed that Russ is going to kill Horus with Sanguinius being the other choice and for the Custodes.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

There is no way the Emperior have a change of heart and suddenly realise
the value of anything new.

The Emperior wanted to conquer the galaxy from all the xenos
and he kept the existence of chaos secret.
His prime directive was the Great Crusade which was to purge the galaxy of any xeno race that ever could treaten mankind
and establish a golden age for mankind.
Why should he care about the dying Eldar for example
or the upstart Tau.

I mean it is obvious that its the "player" talking who have player different races and therefore want the races to cooperate.
There is no way the races cooperate, they are all bound and limited by their personalites.
No one will change.
The Emperior will not act out of character just becouse he had a long sleep.


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