# Can Lucius Actually Die?



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Following on from an argument that occurred on another thread there was intense discussion on whether Lucius the eternal could actually die in a freak accident (For example he tripped and drowned into a puddle) then does he possess someone and become reborn or just die?

I personally wonder whether if a chaos god caused a freak accident (Say nurgle causes Lucius to die from an intense disease) then would the chaos god become possessed and die from Lucius's ability to avoid death?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

lucuis can only be reborm if someone feels satisfaction joy or something from his death as long as no one was glad he died he wouldnt be reborn


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## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

so if he is killed by nids or necs he's screwed?

does it have to be his killer feeling joy or anybody near by? for instance what if he was involved in a hit and run with a Land raider or took a basilisk shell to the face?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

i think so but im not sure about the second cause im sure slaanesh wouldnt want his champion to die


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

13illfred said:


> so if he is killed by nids or necs he's screwed?
> 
> does it have to be his killer feeling joy or anybody near by? for instance what if he was involved in a hit and run with a Land raider or took a basilisk shell to the face?


I'm sure the driver of the LandRaider would feel some joy in squishing someone in his threads.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

well Lucius can die in other ways like with given examples, but with Lucius been the chosen champion of Slaanesh i doubt Slaanesh would allow Lucius to remain dead, just as Khorne would bring back Kharn the betrayer
but its possible hes has something like a cats 7 lives, where if he does die, say from been blown up he would use one of the many souls hes captured to revive himself,


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

He will only die when slaanesh tires of him, until then hes pretty much immortal, though I'd just lock him in a box somewhere if I had to fight him


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Is his resurrection ability completely unescapable? I mean, theoretically, if the Emperor killed him and was really happy over it would he turn into Lucius? Or would he be strong enough to deny Lucius his resurrection ability? And to a lesser extent, if someone like Eldrad killed him, or another character known for their epic abilities...

Or how about if Kharn/Typhus/Ahriman killed him? I imagine the chaos gods would have a minor fight over it and either Lucius would die or you'd end up with each god restoring their own favoured in some way... (in my opinion, that is)


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## ThaPinkPownerFatty (Aug 12, 2010)

a better question. if lucius couldnt come back then he wouldnt be ethernal and slaanesh would be proven wrong and the whole knowing univurse would implode. but thats just me rembling


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

If lucius was run over by a land raider or basilisk shell to the face then the land raiders driver or the basilisk's gunner would be posessed by lucius.

In these examples it seems that nids and necs cannot be possessed so if every other race in the galaxy was wiped out then he would not return.

In a more (slightly more anyways) realistic example what would happen if lucius was traveling by himself on a uninhabitable planet that is of no importance to any race and he just happened to fall in a sandpit and die then would he die since no one enters planet they do not know he is dead and cannot be happy about it?


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Endymion said:


> Is his resurrection ability completely unescapable? I mean, theoretically, if the Emperor killed him and was really happy over it would he turn into Lucius? Or would he be strong enough to deny Lucius his resurrection ability? And to a lesser extent, if someone like Eldrad killed him, or another character known for their epic abilities...
> 
> Or how about if Kharn/Typhus/Ahriman killed him? I imagine the chaos gods would have a minor fight over it and either Lucius would die or you'd end up with each god restoring their own favoured in some way... (in my opinion, that is)


If someone like the Emperor or Eldrad killed him, then his soul would probably be shredded. Even Slaneesh is going to have a hard time bringing him back from that one.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

There are ways to get around the rule; a necron frying his ass for example. However, slaanesh would simple work around it.


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Yeah, I think rather than Lucius inherently resurrecting himself it's more Slaanesh bringing him back. So if you figure out a way to kill him without experiencing emotion Slaanesh would just shrug and bring him back anyway.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

dunno if this has been suggested yet but what if somebody killed Lucius (dosen't mater how) and then they commited suicide? I think we are getting TOO into this topic and making it complicated but it's fun


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## Endymion (Jul 19, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> dunno if this has been suggested yet but what if somebody killed Lucius (dosen't mater how) and then they commited suicide? I think we are getting TOO into this topic and making it complicated but it's fun


Good point... Slaanesh would probably call hax and just bring back Lucius anyway.

I don't think GW intended for this mechanic to be dissected this much. xD


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

There are several threads already covering this exact topic, so to the OP please search for existing threads before creating new ones.

One thing several of you seem to overlook is the fact that Lucius draws his 'ability' to 'resurrect' from Slaanesh. It is the Dark Prince's power and continued will that Lucius endure that enables Lucius to keep the cycle going. If Slaanesh was in a position where he was unable to revive Lucius (being too weak, or tiring of Lucius) then Lucius would likely just die and his soul consumed by Chaos.

For example, if Lucius tripped and drowned in a puddle (bit of a random example from the OP there!) where no one but himself was responsible, and where no one but himself felt any pang of emotion at his death, then technically, going literally by the 'rule' Lucius would simply die. But in this circumstance Slaanesh would likely have the ability and power to just repossess another Slaaneshi follower with Lucius' soul, so the cycle begins anew.

A better example in my eyes would be (as the above poster brought up) what if Lucius committed suicide? Well, taking into account that the reason Slaanesh starting bringing Lucius back in the first place (following his death at the hands of Lord Commander Cyrius) was because his 'agonising death was an experience of transcendent pleasure' and thus presumably Slaanesh wished it to occur again and again, because it likely pleased and empowered himself. Thus even if Lucius did commit suicide, it would still be an 'experience of transcendent pleasure' and thus Slaanesh would want to bring him back again. Although eventually the fickle Slaanesh will probably tire of Lucius and just let him die and consume his soul... 



Endymion said:


> Is his resurrection ability completely unescapable? I mean, theoretically, if the Emperor killed him and was really happy over it would he turn into Lucius? Or would he be strong enough to deny Lucius his resurrection ability? And to a lesser extent, if someone like Eldrad killed him, or another character known for their epic abilities...
> 
> Or how about if Kharn/Typhus/Ahriman killed him? I imagine the chaos gods would have a minor fight over it and either Lucius would die or you'd end up with each god restoring their own favoured in some way... (in my opinion, that is)


I imagine it would depend on Slaanesh's current power and rankings within the Great Game. If the Emperor killed him for example, I highly doubt Slaanesh would be in a position to transform the Emperor into Lucius, the Emperor is simply too powerful and it would take so much energy, power and investment that Slaanesh would leave himself extremely vulnerable in the Great Game.

As for if a Champion of another Chaos God killed him (Eg. Kharn, Ahriman or Typhus), I think it largely depends on the Champions worth to their patron compared to Lucius' worth to Slaanesh, and the Champions patron's power and ranking within the Great Game compared to Slaanesh at that point. For example if Slaanesh was the dominant and most powerful Chaos God at the time of Lucius' death to (lets say) Kharn, and Slaanesh valued Lucius more than Khorne did Kharn, then Slaanesh would probably be in a position to revive Lucius at the expense of Kharn. This applies to the other gods and their champions as well in my mind.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> If lucius was run over by a land raider or basilisk shell to the face then the land raiders driver or the basilisk's gunner would be posessed by lucius.
> 
> In these examples it seems that nids and necs cannot be possessed so if every other race in the galaxy was wiped out then he would not return.
> 
> In a more (slightly more anyways) realistic example what would happen if lucius was traveling by himself on a uninhabitable planet that is of no importance to any race and he just happened to fall in a sandpit and die then would he die since no one enters planet they do not know he is dead and cannot be happy about it?


In that case he would possess the Sarlacc...wait..


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> A better example in my eyes would be (as the above poster brought up) what if Lucius committed suicide? Well, taking into account that the reason Slaanesh starting bringing Lucius back in the first place (following his death at the hands of Lord Commander Cyrius) was because his 'agonising death was an experience of transcendent pleasure' and thus presumably Slaanesh wished it to occur again and again, because it likely pleased and empowered himself. Thus even if Lucius did commit suicide, it would still be an 'experience of transcendent pleasure' and thus Slaanesh would want to bring him back again. Although eventually the fickle Slaanesh will probably tire of Lucius and just let him die and consume his soul...


I want to make a wanker joke out of this, but nothing I get really justifies the unwittingly epic setup.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

what if a Null killed him? like a Culexus Assassins, or a necron Pariah? or heck a guardsmen who did not even know he was a blank?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

im sure a aspiring champion would sacrifice his body to slaanesh to allow lucius to walk another day. there would probably be a reward like 70 virgins. or something along those lines.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dragonkingofthestars said:


> what if a Null killed him? like a Culexus Assassins, or a necron Pariah? or heck a guardsmen who did not even know he was a blank?


In my mind the same would apply as what I said in my last post.


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## Abbott (Aug 1, 2009)

Capture him and put the pain glove on him

The pain glove (also referred to as a nerve-glove) is a type of torture device used by the Space Marines. It is a "glove" of electrofibre mesh suspended in a vertical shaft, covering the entire body with the exception of the head. It fits the body like an intimate second skin. The glove stimulates nerves to inflict the most agonizing pain throughout the body, without causing physical harm. The device ensures the individual is kept conscious throughout the ordeal by suppressing reflexes which cause fainting.

The longest anyone has gone without going insane is 52 minutes and it burns though your nerves. So wait till his nerves are dead, then kill him. No pain? No pleasure? Would teh Dark Prince notice his death if there was nop pleasure?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

probably not but he would notice the pain he was going through and follow it to the very end and then he would see it so he could revive it


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Abbott said:


> Capture him and put the pain glove on him
> 
> The pain glove (also referred to as a nerve-glove) is a type of torture device used by the Space Marines. It is a "glove" of electrofibre mesh suspended in a vertical shaft, covering the entire body with the exception of the head. It fits the body like an intimate second skin. The glove stimulates nerves to inflict the most agonizing pain throughout the body, without causing physical harm. The device ensures the individual is kept conscious throughout the ordeal by suppressing reflexes which cause fainting.
> 
> The longest anyone has gone without going insane is 52 minutes and it burns though your nerves. So wait till his nerves are dead, then kill him. No pain? No pleasure? Would teh Dark Prince notice his death if there was nop pleasure?


I thank he would like. Slaanish is weird like that. nope i take him and weld him into a steel box. no sound, no light, no feeling, and then take that box and jet it into space.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I am all for shooting Lucius into a planet core in a very indestructible box that has only one key into it and then throw the key into the nearest black hole.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

he would get revived by Slaanesh because the god cant have his ultimate salesman dying. and i doubt lucius can even feel pain im sure his nerve endings have been fucked up because of the 10,000 years of battle scars. just the wiked cuts on his face can tell you his face probably doesnt feel pain.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

5tonsledge said:


> he would get revived by Slaanesh because the god cant have his ultimate salesman dying. and i doubt lucius can even feel pain im sure his nerve endings have been fucked up because of the 10,000 years of battle scars. just the wiked cuts on his face can tell you his face probably doesnt feel pain.


Actually he probably has an even GREATER sense of feeling since being a Slaaneshi he would likely love feeling any sense of pain since as far as I know almost all followers of slaanesh are masochistic and sadistic in one way or another and any pain felt by them are extremely ecstatically pleasing. So not so much not feeling pain but rather enjoying it, not feeling it is more Nurgle.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

nice that makes since so he takes pain and he loves it.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I am all for shooting Lucius into a planet core in a very indestructible box that has only one key into it and then throw the key into the nearest black hole.


In which case whoever did it would turn into him.



I think that if he somehow killed himself, and nobody else was around, and nobody took pleasure in his death, then Slaanesh would just pick some random person who takes pleasure in killing and make them the host for Lucius's rebirth.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

5tonsledge said:


> he would get revived by Slaanesh because the god cant have his ultimate salesman dying. and i doubt lucius can even feel pain im sure his nerve endings have been fucked up because of the 10,000 years of battle scars. just the wiked cuts on his face can tell you his face probably doesnt feel pain.





Grimskul25 said:


> Actually he probably has an even GREATER sense of feeling since being a Slaaneshi he would likely love feeling any sense of pain since as far as I know almost all followers of slaanesh are masochistic and sadistic in one way or another and any pain felt by them are extremely ecstatically pleasing. So not so much not feeling pain but rather enjoying it, not feeling it is more Nurgle.


Most of the scars on his face are self inflicted. Each one represents a victory.
Here is a quote from lexicanum....

"The scaring on his face is self inflicted. At one point he was a truly handsome man, but he resented being called "too pretty" by some of his fellow marines. His "perfect" features were forever marred after the sparring match with Loken; the Luna Wolf's punch had broken Lucius' nose, and - much to his fury - it had refused to set properly, despite the attentions of the Legion's Apothecaries. During the corruption of the Emperor's Children, Lucius was cut in the face for the first time by remembrancer Serena D'Angelus, a painter in the 28th Expedition, who had already been corrupted by Chaos. Two parallel scars were placed on either cheek, so that Lucius would remember what Loken had done to him. He then began to scar himself after battles and before fights he was sure he would win to mark his victories. This resulted in him being covered in an intricate network of scars (both from his exploits in battle and his celebration afterwards), distorting and deforming his features."


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

What if TWO people took pride in killing him?

That is to say, what if one killed him, and then the other one shared in his joy?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Cato Sicarius said:


> What if TWO people took pride in killing him?
> 
> That is to say, what if one killed him, and then the other one shared in his joy?


If the killer showed no pleasure in Lucius's death, and somebody accompanying him did... 

Well, i guess it depends on Slaanesh's preference between the ACT of killing Lucius, or the PLEASURE had in seeing Lucius's death.

I dont really know the fluff that well (i havent read any BL books at all), but i would be inclined to say that the pleasure would outweigh the act.

However, if the killer showed any sort of pleasure or satisfaction at all, then i would say that the killer would become the new host, even if the accomplice took greater pleasure/satisfaction.


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> In a more (slightly more anyways) realistic example what would happen if lucius was traveling by himself on a uninhabitable planet that is of no importance to any race and he just happened to fall in a sandpit and die then would he die since no one enters planet they do not know he is dead and cannot be happy about it?


2 weeks later at a slanneshi cult tea party:

Cultist 1: have you seen lucius lately?

Cultist 2: no, I wonder what happened

Cultist 1 : well whatever happened I'm glad, that guy was a di... ARGFSGFGGG


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> Most of the scars on his face are self inflicted. Each one represents a victory.
> Here is a quote from lexicanum....
> 
> "The scaring on his face is self inflicted. At one point he was a truly handsome man, but he resented being called "too pretty" by some of his fellow marines. His "perfect" features were forever marred after the sparring match with Loken; the Luna Wolf's punch had broken Lucius' nose, and - much to his fury - it had refused to set properly, despite the attentions of the Legion's Apothecaries. During the corruption of the Emperor's Children, Lucius was cut in the face for the first time by remembrancer Serena D'Angelus, a painter in the 28th Expedition, who had already been corrupted by Chaos. Two parallel scars were placed on either cheek, so that Lucius would remember what Loken had done to him. He then began to scar himself after battles and before fights he was sure he would win to mark his victories. This resulted in him being covered in an intricate network of scars (both from his exploits in battle and his celebration afterwards), distorting and deforming his features."


thank you that clears things up. and its cool that he self inflicts his own wounds that meens his bad ass.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

5tonsledge said:


> thank you that clears things up. and its cool that he self inflicts his own wounds that meens his bad ass.


Nope. It means he is a pussy emo bitch.:laugh:


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> Nope. It means he is a pussy emo bitch.:laugh:


ouch, thats harsh. but yea when i typed it it did sound a little emo cutting himself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

As for people suggesting instead of killing him, just locking him up or dropping him into space to solve the problem. The Chaos Gods can literally just spirit their followers away to safety (as happened during Abaddon's duel with Eldrad prior to the 13th Black Crusade), so if Slaanesh likes him so much, then he would just spirit him out of said prison/box/or whatever.

I would conclude that there is no way to kill Lucius the Eternal unless Slaanesh herself wishes it (which is probably quite probable given her fickleness).


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would conclude that there is no way to kill Lucius the Eternal unless Slaanesh herself wishes it (which is probably quite probable given her fickleness).


You just wait until the Council of Terra authorizes the thawing out of Chuck Norris...JUST YOU WAIT!


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes Lucius can and will be killed but i think you all are missing the point a bit. Lucius has a destiny and it dose not envolve drowning in a puddle or getting hit in the face by a morter. 

It is clear /HOW/ to kill him. The person who kills him can take no pleasure or satisfaction in his death.

What should be the real question is /WHO/ will it be? Who is fated to kill Lucius? Slaneesh is not going to let him die randomly or to necrons, nids or natural dissastor.

It is going to take a HERO! A hero who will take no pleasure in Killing Lucius. A hero skilled enough to take his head. A hero who would want to kill him in the first place. A hero who had the resources to track him down and fight through the army he is with. A hero.......... Blla bla bla.

It's Loken.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Do you just not bother reading the other responses in the thread or something? Until Slaanesh grows board with Lucius it will always find a way to bring him back, whether his killer takes pleasure in his death or not.


Plus with any luck, Loken will go ahead to die and be a martyr to completely solidify himself as a true hero.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Only problem is it can't be loken because Lucious is around in M41.... Shit though I would love so see someone put him down for good.


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## idunno234 (Aug 20, 2010)

Ironically, some of the best to put him in his place (6 feet Under) are Chaos. Slaanesh wouldn't help him come back via Abbadon (Too awesome) and some like Kharn and Typhus would just call it another kill. The C'Tan would work nicely as well.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

You cannot use Abaddon escaping Eldrad as an example of escaping.

That occurred during a WD battle report when Abaddon got killed by Eldrad but because he is a special character they made some excuse as to how he survived.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> You cannot use Abaddon escaping Eldrad as an example of escaping.
> 
> That occurred during a WD battle report when Abaddon got killed by Eldrad but because he is a special character they made some excuse as to how he survived.


WD battle reports are fixed anyway, and its a perfectly legitimate example considering it stated quite clearly that the Chaos Gods spirited Abaddon away before Eldrad got the drop on him. White Dwarf magazines are just as much a legitimate source as a codex or novel as well remember.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Then that was a phase they REALLY hated chaos. I still remember in June 2003 issue that Typhus got shot to death by Leman Russes but he survived by "using a teleport homer" just before the last lascannon shot. It was well disguised until post match interview when one player was happy he killed Typhus.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Do you just not bother reading the other responses in the thread or something? Until Slaanesh grows board with Lucius it will always find a way to bring him back, whether his killer takes pleasure in his death or not.
> 
> 
> Plus with any luck, Loken will go ahead to die and be a martyr to completely solidify himself as a true hero.


I never post untill i read all the ones on a thread. I could understand you thinking so if i has repeeted what some one else said. I even made reference to the "morter to the face" Just because people on this thread / board think Lucius will stay alive untill Slaneesh says so means little. Most people on this board thought Loken was dead. Just like Lucius. But you and Lucius are out of luck. Loken lives past Istvaan III, an if im right he lives on to 40k. If so he will get round 3 vs Lucius. Now tied 1-1, it demands a tie breaker. Slaneesh serves the will of GW. If they say he is fated to die at any point it matters not what Slaneesh thinks.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The bulk of people here on Heresy thought Loken to be dead because there was no evidence to say otherwise until the authors of BL decided to tip us off (something that is far more recent than the belief of Loken to be dead.)

However a discussion about that character has little or no bearing on this topic, so lets get back on track.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

darkreever said:


> The bulk of people here on Heresy thought Loken to be dead because there was no evidence to say otherwise until the authors of BL decided to tip us off (something that is far more recent than the belief of Loken to be dead.)
> 
> However a discussion about that character has little or no bearing on this topic, so lets get back on track.


little or no bearing...... Wow. Even though it was Loken who messed up Lucius' pretty lil face? And as i have preposed it is he who is the answer this thread is searching for? Ok i guess we can go back to the unlikely.


So sory to hijack the thread with a not so subtle, "i told you Loken lived", rant.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Just because people on this thread / board think Lucius will stay alive untill Slaneesh says so means little.


It means everything, but thats what all the evidence points to.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Most people on this board thought Loken was dead. Just like Lucius. But you and Lucius are out of luck. Loken lives past Istvaan III, an if im right he lives on to 40k.


How could he possibly live on until M41? The only possibility is stasis and/or being interred into a Dreadnought, and the point? So he can face Lucius one last time? Ha.

If Loken and Lucius do face one another for the 'tie-breaker' it will be during the Heresy after Loken's tragic return. Oh and I highly doubt Loken would even stand a chance of defeating Lucius, especially after his 'advantages' given to him by Fabius Bile and his devotion to Slaanesh. 



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Slaneesh serves the will of GW. If they say he is fated to die at any point it matters not what Slaneesh thinks.


Not even GW add ridiculous background material or alter current background material in a ridiculous way. Having Loken survive the entire Heresy and the 10,000 succeeding years merely to face Lucius as your post implies would be petty and worthless, and even if such a crazy thing happened, and Loken somehow defeated Lucius, Lucius would still return.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Endymion said:


> Is his resurrection ability completely unescapable? I mean, theoretically, if the Emperor killed him and was really happy over it would he turn into Lucius? Or would he be strong enough to deny Lucius his resurrection ability? And to a lesser extent, if someone like Eldrad killed him, or another character known for their epic abilities...


If a Grey Knight or a blank killed him them he would not take over their body, as it would be impossible. Blanks have no presence in the warp so they are impossible to possess, and Grey Knights are well.... Grey Knights, they cannot be corrupted either. 

I think that if a Tau killed him the Tau would not turn into him even if he had satisfaction int it. No tau has defected to chaos as of yet and they have so little a presence in the warp i highly doubt that any have been possessed either.

Things such as the c'tan or the Emperor could likely kill him and not become possessed by him either as they are so powerful they could either defeat Slaanesh or it would take so much energy for Slaanesh to enforce his will that it would not be worth it.

Also Tyranids and Necrons cannot feel joy or elation so they would surely not be possessed either.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It means everything, but thats what all the evidence points to.


 All the evedence? Even the bit about how to actualy kill him? The needing to not take any pleasure in it? That seems to me to be a map to get er done.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How could he possibly live on until M41? The only possibility is stasis and/or being interred into a Dreadnought, and the point? So he can face Lucius one last time? Ha.


 Heh. Well...... There was that Salamander (The Tome of Fire Trilogy) who lived for 10k+ years with only primitive medical attention. If he can do it as a Istvaan V survivor then why not Loken?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If Loken and Lucius do face one another for the 'tie-breaker' it will be during the Heresy after Loken's tragic return. Oh and I highly doubt Loken would even stand a chance of defeating Lucius, especially after his 'advantages' given to him by Fabius Bile and his devotion to Slaanesh.


I will give you that Lucius will have been upgraded but you really think Loken would still be rocking the bolter and chainsword? I think the Istvaan III campaign badge will give him access to a bit better gear. If I am right and he is one of 8 "First" Grey Knight Grand-masters then he might just have Terminator armour and a Nimissis Force weapon. Oh and he will also have some "suppressed" abilities unlocked by the Emperor. Lucius would get Owned. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not even GW add ridiculous background material or alter current background material in a ridiculous way. Having Loken survive the entire Heresy and the 10,000 succeeding years merely to face Lucius as your post implies would be petty and worthless, and even if such a crazy thing happened, and Loken somehow defeated Lucius, Lucius would still return.


Ok so even if GW says Loken killis Lucius and then dose not turn into him, he will come back anyway? ok..... And as for GW not "likeing ridiculous background material", what aboutImperial guard Catachan special caracter Sly Marbo?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Heh. Well...... There was that Salamander (The Tome of Fire Trilogy) who lived for 10k+ years with only primitive medical attention. If he can do it as a Istvaan V survivor then why not Loken?


You seem to have forgotten that Salamander couldn't even stand his muscle had completely atrophied.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I will give you that Lucius will have been upgraded but you really think Loken would still be rocking the bolter and chainsword? I think the Istvaan III campaign badge will give him access to a bit better gear. If I am right and he is one of 8 "First" Grey Knight Grand-masters then he might just have Terminator armour and a Nimissis Force weapon. Oh and he will also have some "suppressed" abilities unlocked by the Emperor. Lucius would get Owned.


What supressed abilities? How would the Emperor have released them when he's on the Golden Throne.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> All the evedence? Even the bit about how to actualy kill him? The needing to not take any pleasure in it? That seems to me to be a map to get er done.


Firstly it doesn't explicitly say that, all it states that if his slayer takes a 'moment of triumph' the transformation with automatically ensue. That doesn't mean that in the improbable situation that a 'moment of triumph' is not felt Lucius would simply die.

And also its fairly obvious as well as the Codex states that Lucius draws his ability to revive from Slaanesh herself. Therefore wouldn't it also be logical to assume that if the situation allowed it, and if Slaanesh willed it, Lucius would just keep returning regardless of whether his killer takes even a 'moment of triumph' or not.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Heh. Well...... There was that Salamander (The Tome of Fire Trilogy) who lived for 10k+ years with only primitive medical attention. If he can do it as a Istvaan V survivor then why not Loken?


Surviving 10,000 years is possible, obviously. As Spikey said though the Salamander you speak of was pretty fucked in M41. Think about it though, how much of a shit plot device would it be to have Loken survive 10,000 years merely to face Lucius the Eternal again? Their bouts provided an extremley minor and forgettable addition to the opening few Heresy novels, it was not a major plot device and not something Loken would wait around for 10,000 years for merely to engage in a tie-breaker with someone that he barely knew and wasn't even his nemesis or rival.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I will give you that Lucius will have been upgraded but you really think Loken would still be rocking the bolter and chainsword? I think the Istvaan III campaign badge will give him access to a bit better gear. If I am right and he is one of 8 "First" Grey Knight Grand-masters then he might just have Terminator armour and a Nimissis Force weapon. Oh and he will also have some "suppressed" abilities unlocked by the Emperor. Lucius would get Owned.


/Yawn... 



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Ok so even if GW says Loken killis Lucius and then dose not turn into him, he will come back anyway? ok..... And as for GW not "likeing ridiculous background material", what aboutImperial guard Catachan special caracter Sly Marbo?


Sly Marbo's background is absolutley nothing compared to what ridicule GW would face for having a major loyalist character from the Heresy series endure 10,000 years merely to face a minor traitor character from the Heresy series, merely because they had been in the practise cage togther...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

OP: Can Lucius actually die?

Answer: yep. I believe it has happened many times in fact. It just doesn`t seem to be permanent... :so_happy:

This has turned into a debate base on biased opinions (so rare on heresy :laugh with the opposers to chaos saying yes and CotE saying no. (I wonder whose side he`s on?)

Can`t we just agree that for the time being, no major characters are going to die that haven`t already? They`re GW`s moneymakers, they ain`t going anywhere.

But if you want a fluff based answer, I`ll say yes he can. I just don`t know how just yet... :scratchhead:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> This has turned into a debate base on biased opinions (so rare on heresy :laugh with the opposers to chaos saying yes and CotE saying no. (I wonder whose side he`s on?)


I know you assume im usually biased towards Chaos  but my answer is by no means biased, its logical and reasoned based on the knowledge we have is it not?


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## SlaaneshDreadnought (Jan 2, 2011)

Lucius is too cool to die by accident.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I highly doubt that if, say, Khorne killed Lucius, Khorne would become Lucius...

I'm sure there's a limit to his resurrection ability, it just takes a being of sufficient power to resist it 

i think the fact that the killer has to feel pleasure is an indication that the power of Slaanesh is somehow involved i.e. Slaanesh wills the subsequent resurrection/possession, the killer simply has to be strong enough to resist Slaanesh


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

For all of you who say "oh it's easy just shoot him into space or into a star and he's not gonna come back"... Oh my, where did all those scars come from? And on that note, you should get out more, your skin's bone white.
Even if Lucius didn't get "spirited away" by Slaanesh, then he'd still return as you if you did something like that. You'd still feel the pleasure, or at least some satisfaction, and that means that you are Lucius. And if the intent was to just keep Lucius out of everyone's way by locking him up in a box, throwing away the key and leaving to float around in space, then you'll probably end up with some of his acolytes finding some other way to crack the safe open (namely by blowing the box up, so even if Lucius was killed he'd be reincarnated by the guy who fired the gun). And then you have nosy explorator fleets who go "ooh look, a box! I wonder what's inside?" and then cut through it. This is assuming that Lucius doesn't get bailed out by Slaanesh, who might have left some nasty surprises in the box for the explorators.
I think that if you wanted to keep Lucius away so he never troubles the Imperium again would be to try and spring him. You knock him out or whatever, and seal him in a little box. This box will be impenetrable from inside and outside, and will be designed so that the inside and anything inside will have no psychic presence whilst contained. Then you get this box to Terra ASAP and lock it in the deepest Inquisitorial vault you can find. Better yet, make sure that the box forces the prisoner to stay alive. This way Slaanesh can't just have to wait for Lucius to die and then possess some random dude. Get Lucius in the box immediately too, because if Slaanesh sees your intent he'll kill Lucius himself and transfer the soul to someone. In the box, Lucius will be sealed off from the warp, so Slaanesh will have a hard time getting in to kill him. You know the Pandorica from Doctor Who? Yeah, a box like that.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

what if a squirrle killed him would that mean he would come back as a squirrle


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

whatever way u wanna look at it, fact remains that as long as Lucius's killer takes one moment of pleasure in his death within hours they are writhing in his armour as another hapless soul...and seeing as most astartes would like to see him dead and members of the inquistion i think it is a fair assumption that pleasure would be taken from his death and therefore...lucius is eternal. who would not feel the slightest moment of joy at the death of an enemy of the emperor, a traitor who wore the aquilla on his armour as a mark of the emperors esteem....oh hang on a minute i was just thinking if a Black Templar did for him then maybe that might not ring true....seeing as i happen to believe they are sooo devoid of anything but religious fervour that might be the exception to the rule.
seriously though as long as people go "lucius have melta"...bang.."YAY HE'S DEAD..oh shit..oh crap....aahhhhh i live again" then yup he's eternal...or until Slannesh gets bored of him at any rate and that don't look like its going to change anytime soon.


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

Like I said, don't kill him. Inter him in the Pandorica. He can't get out at all, he's completely restrained and in the words used in Doctor Who, "You can't even escape by dying - it forces you to stay alive". Just give it some heavy reinforcement against a Chaos-supported Astartes from the days of the Great Crusade, and lock it away in the deepest darkest Inquisitorial vault around, and he ain't getting out of there. Slaanesh can't even kill him in there, the Pandorica will probably just kick-start him in less than half a millisecond if he even dies at all.

Oh, and make it COMPLETELY anything-that-could-possibly-open-it proof. Because if a wimpy little sonic screwdriver could open it, then Slaanesh will have Daemonettes on the Pandorica in an instant to tear it to shreds. Eventually, this will become everything-proof because there'll always be a little weakness that a mackerel or a bucket of water could exploit. This would have to mean Chaos-proof as well, so Slaanesh can't just teleport his favourite out of there.

Another thing you could do is to tell every Imperial citizen, soldier and agent that killing Lucius will make him reincarnate himself in you. This way if an Imperial soldier kills Lucius then he'll go "oh fuck" and not take any pleasure. And don't tell anybody if Lucius dies, because the moment a kid watching the news on the hololith goes "yay Lucius is dead", bam, Lucius in a defenseless population centre. That's messy.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

As has been pointed out, and then totally ignored, the mechanism of 'a moment of triumph' bringing about Lucius' rebirth isn't worth getting so hung up on. It is just a way for us to get some understanding of how Lucius overcomes his many deaths. The _actual_ reason, as CotE has said a number of times, is Slaanesh's whim and power.
If Lucius is merely locked away in an ultra-secure location then if Slaanesh wanted him out, out he is. Same with death by artillery/tank track/Necron/'nid; if Slaanesh wants to bring him back, even going as far as making him a brand new body, then so be it.
The 'moment of triumph' isn't the mechanism by which Lucius survives. The power and desire of Slaanesh is the mechanism by which Lucius survives.
No matter how Lucius is killed/incapacitated/indisposed, if Slaanesh sees value in his pawn's continued service then circumstances will be altered by the Dark Prince to make that service continue.
Possibly the best way to get Lucius killed is to make Slaanesh bored of/pissed off with him; that is something that Lucius' own hubris could bring about (if one of the Chaos Gods has got _your_ back wouldn't you get a bit cocky?!)- just look at what happened to the Masque, and she was being sincere!

GFP


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## Auretious Taak (May 27, 2010)

Stasis Field solves all debates. Stuck in stasis for eternity = never being re-incarnated again until Slaanesh or another Chaos God steals away him from said stasis field.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

so what if like i dont know fell and hit his head really hard and died what then?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> so what if like i dont know fell and hit his head really hard and died what then?


Go back and read over the thread, it's covered several times and even in other Lucius based threads. Even as late as a mere two posts ago in fact P): 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> As has been pointed out, and then totally ignored, the mechanism of 'a moment of triumph' bringing about Lucius' rebirth isn't worth getting so hung up on. It is just a way for us to get some understanding of how Lucius overcomes his many deaths. The _actual_ reason, as CotE has said a number of times, is Slaanesh's whim and power.
> If Lucius is merely locked away in an ultra-secure location then if Slaanesh wanted him out, out he is. Same with death by artillery/tank track/Necron/'nid; if Slaanesh wants to bring him back, even going as far as making him a brand new body, then so be it.
> The 'moment of triumph' isn't the mechanism by which Lucius survives. The power and desire of Slaanesh is the mechanism by which Lucius survives.
> No matter how Lucius is killed/incapacitated/indisposed, if Slaanesh sees value in his pawn's continued service then circumstances will be altered by the Dark Prince to make that service continue.
> ...


:goodpost:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There are several threads already covering this exact topic, so to the OP please search for existing threads before creating new ones.
> 
> One thing several of you seem to overlook is the fact that Lucius draws his 'ability' to 'resurrect' from Slaanesh. It is the Dark Prince's power and continued will that Lucius endure that enables Lucius to keep the cycle going. If Slaanesh was in a position where he was unable to revive Lucius (being too weak, or tiring of Lucius) then Lucius would likely just die and his soul consumed by Chaos.
> 
> ...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I imagine it would depend on Slaanesh's current power and rankings within the Great Game. If the Emperor killed him for example, I highly doubt Slaanesh would be in a position to transform the Emperor into Lucius, the Emperor is simply too powerful and it would take so much energy, power and investment that Slaanesh would leave himself extremely vulnerable in the Great Game.
> 
> As for if a Champion of another Chaos God killed him (Eg. Kharn, Ahriman or Typhus), I think it largely depends on the Champions worth to their patron compared to Lucius' worth to Slaanesh, and the Champions patron's power and ranking within the Great Game compared to Slaanesh at that point. For example if Slaanesh was the dominant and most powerful Chaos God at the time of Lucius' death to (lets say) Kharn, and Slaanesh valued Lucius more than Khorne did Kharn, then Slaanesh would probably be in a position to revive Lucius at the expense of Kharn. This applies to the other gods and their champions as well in my mind.


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

The whole stasis field approach doesn't work. Like you say, he's only stuck there until Slaanesh gets him out. He'll have that done in two seconds flat.
I'm telling you, something to force Lucius to stay alive, is entirely impervious to anything (like Balder in Viking mythology when his mother found he was going to die, except this time get the mistletoe in on the act too), and is sealed off from the warp. No Slaanesh breaking him out, no dying. He's there forever.

Also GFP, with the thing about Slaanesh even going so far as to make a brand new body for Lucius if need be, I think Slaanesh and Its worshippers just make brand new bodies for fun, don't they?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Just one thought about the whole Slaanesh bringing him back. What would happen if he was killed by a Pariah (within the blank zone around him/her) and then kept within a Pariah field then Slaanesh's influence (or any psychic influence) wouldn't be able to touch him.

1 - Would the Pariah become Lucius - Probably not as Slaanesh would put his soul back into another body due to not being able to "touch" the Pariah in the material realm.

2 - However, what happens to a soul killed by a Pariah? Does it enter the warp or is it prevented to by the Pariah zone? Theoretically ff the Pariah zone prevents the soul entering the warp could Lucius' soul be kept from rejoining Slaanesh (especially since he's not a daemon)?

Finally the thing made by Erebus in Nemesis - I wonder what would happen if that fought Lucius with it's uber-pariahness and other nasty skills.

Just some thoughts which have jumped into my head? I don't know if there are any answers...


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

If Lucius is killed in close combat and his killer then commits suicide, then in theory Lucius is boned. But then again, the ways of Slaanesh are mysterious


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

If he's like in a Chaos spaceship and it gets blown up, would the guy who pushed the lance-fire button in the Imperial Cruiser die?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

You know i would say yes


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Here's a question, what if Lucius got killed and consumed by a C'Tan? I'd think even Slaanesh would have a tough time figuring out how to get him back from that one.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Why, because his body is killed and his soul sent screaming back to the warp? Doesn't seem like him getting a new body would be all that hard.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Why, because his body is killed and his soul sent screaming back to the warp? Doesn't seem like him getting a new body would be all that hard.


I thought the C'Tan sucked out all the soul juice as well. But then again, my knowledge of Necron/C'Tan fluff is fairly poor.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think we'd get a C'tan Lucius, as C'tan are alive, IIRC. Might be something like the Chaos Dragon with a split personality.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Creon said:


> I think we'd get a C'tan Lucius, as C'tan are alive, IIRC. Might be something like the Chaos Dragon with a split personality.


No we wouldn't. C'tan are generally outside of the Four's jurisdiction.



Harriticus said:


> If he's like in a Chaos spaceship and it gets blown up, would the guy who pushed the lance-fire button in the Imperial Cruiser die?


Come on guys seriously now, myself and _GFP_ have pointed this out several times. 

See here.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

Of course that fool can die.

Even IF Slaanesh holds him in such high regard as we are led to believe, surely he's killable. 

Let's put that theory to the test:

Most Imperial Commanders will know of his ability to ressurrect, and since he's such a bad boy, I'm sure someone would give their life to defeat him - Let's say a powerful death company champion killed him in combat, and afterwards the likes of Astorath (Death Company Master) could grant him The Emperor's Peace, full well knowing that the Champion is doomed either way. 

I'm sure no loyal marine will take pride in or enjoy slaying a fellow loyalist, even a black-raged Blood Angel - Especially when they've fallen to chaos anyway.

Sure it's stupidly on the edge of things, but so is the OP's question!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Engindeer said:


> Of course that fool can die.
> 
> Even IF Slaanesh holds him in such high regard as we are led to believe, surely he's killable.
> 
> ...


I think your missing the point.



Engindeer said:


> Most Imperial Commanders will know of his ability to ressurrect


How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Technically, he has to die before he's resurrected. That is, he is killed before he can be resurrected. So yes, he can die. If this wasn't the answer you were looking for, then a) word your question better next time, and b) use the search function; there have been dozens of threads on this matter already.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Most people in the imperium are completely oblivious of the exsistence of chaos


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I loooove my fluff.

But do you all really think GW had this in mind when they created this piece of fluff?

CoTE and a few others have pointed it out a million times.

So we don't need:

What happens if Colonel Mustard, murders Lucius in the Library with a Candlestick?

It has been explained people!


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> I loooove my fluff.
> 
> 
> What happens if Colonel Mustard, murders Lucius in the Library with a Candlestick?
> ...


Col. Mustard becomes Lucius and kills Professor Plum in the billards room with the lead pipe.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

He takes care of Miss Scarlet in the Conservatory first. He is Chosen of Slaanesh.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Creon said:


> He takes care of Miss Scarlet in the Conservatory first. He is Chosen of Slaanesh.


hehehehehehe


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

he is dead but his image is not. After he is killed, his killer retains his image, and this cycle keeps going.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

It would be funny if Slaanesh gets annoyed with Lucius so he kills him, then becomes him.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> You seem to have forgotten that
> What supressed abilities? How would the Emperor have released them when he's on the Golden Throne.


Well i think we now have an answer to your question Baron, after Legion of One. To me the "Cerberus" effect would seem to indicate that Loken found some extra power some ware. How the Emperor did this i do not for sure know but i can guess. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly it doesn't explicitly say that, all it states that if his slayer takes a 'moment of triumph' the transformation with automatically ensue. That doesn't mean that in the improbable situation that a 'moment of triumph' is not felt Lucius would simply die.
> 
> And also its fairly obvious as well as the Codex states that Lucius draws his ability to revive from Slaanesh herself. Therefore wouldn't it also be logical to assume that if the situation allowed it, and if Slaanesh willed it, Lucius would just keep returning regardless of whether his killer takes even a 'moment of triumph' or not.
> 
> ...


I did not say that Loken's was only mission in life was to kill Lucius, I think he has no shortage of names on his list. I do not think the Scales will be "Balanced" for Loken until he kills Abaddon and Lil Horus. I can also think of more names who would be on his list.

Do you still think it's worth a /yawn? 

Is there anyone who think Lucius would stand a chance against Loken/ Cerberus?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lucius cant die! Look at this thread for Proof :laugh:


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

He can only come back by possessing the person who killed him.

So if by pure bad luck, suppose a boulder drops from a cliff above and squishes him into fine Slaanesh-brand cocaine? Does the boulder turn into a giant evil pink boulder that chases after people Indiana Jones style?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I am going to paraphrase myself from the last one of these threads.

Lucius steps on a land mine. Slaneesh(Facepalm)


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

The little fragments of shrapnel become Lucius?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

soundsd to me that lucius's body is dead but his soul lives on....usually in those he kills and then possesses thier bodies when they take a moment of triumph from killing hiim.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

i read this in a fan fiction thing a while back, and although obviously not canon, its an interesting idea. 

In battle against an enemy, forgot his name, lucius is killed by him. the whole possesion thing begins to happen, but the warrior kills himself by shooting himself in the head. 

although it isnt part of gw, the idea is interesting?


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

the warriors was kharn i remember now. Kharn kills him, and then begins to be possesed, as its occuring, kharn shoots himself in the head. Now hes a rival chaos warrior, surely Khorne wouldnt want slaneesh playing with his fallen champions body? 

something similar to that then? ^


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Can lucius die?
yes he can, but he will come back...eventually


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> the warriors was kharn i remember now. Kharn kills him, and then begins to be possesed, as its occuring, kharn shoots himself in the head. Now hes a rival chaos warrior, surely Khorne wouldnt want slaneesh playing with his fallen champions body?
> 
> something similar to that then? ^


doubt that khorne would take lightly to it and Kharrn is another one who seems to rise from the dead.....if he is actually still alive and he isn't like the 1K sons and has a soul trapped in his armour


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