# CSM vs. DA Comparison, FOC by FOC



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

HQ
An important slot given the newly ‘cinematic’ nature of the game, but not really that game-defining unless some big shenanigans is made possible. Two models are likely not going to swing game when the order of the day is spamming survivable affordable firepower.

*CSM*: Arguably the high point of the book, with many special characters and decently fluffy. Pretty much all CC beasts, they don’t impact their armies that much other than making elites into troops selections/scoring here and there. The fact that said elites are usually nothing to sing about hampers the appeal. Still, quite a lot of strong AP2 melee swinging at Initiative here, even if Champion of Chaos makes them act dumb. The sorcerer is good but not great, and lacks Divination access, which is currently a big thing in determining which MeQ armies get to be competitive.

*DA:* Much improved over the last version, but then again that is a really low bar. Sammael is really great. Azrael is strong, but he doesn’t really sinergize that well with the choices he enables. And Ezekiel has become a really sweet package for his point cost. They get Divination access, meaning that twin-linked salvo 4 bolters will eat enemy infantry alive. And DE vehicles. Hell, everything. Besides, nice to be able to get Techmarines as upgrades to existing HQs (While the CSM version hogs a whole slot…). Not all HQ-support models are created equal, though for ages rules have tried to insist otherwise.
*Advantage: CSM*

Elites

The things that are like other things, but…better. Force multiplier. Special dudes. Important in this comparison since both books can get away with sneaking them to do troops stuff.

*DA:* DA terminators get more expensive than most other variants, but they also gain so much. Easily made scoring. Plenty of tools for guided/planned Deepstrike, decent transport options and amazing weaponry, while being the most resilient 2+ infantry this side of Paladins. Also: Split fire. You can also make Nurgle players cry by fielding T5 terminators with FNP (Banner), thought the cost is….salty. Dreads are not bad and can be made to specialize, but may well end up playing second fiddle to the termi onslaught. Veterans are also not quite up to snuff.

*CSM*: Ooo boy. The big question: Does Chaos even have a_ real _elite section? So much of it is former troops that got worse and cheaper (or not, in the case of 1Ksom and Plagueboys). The Hellbrute mediocre, unable to focus on dakka and has no good delivery method to get up close. Terminators are cheap if left bare, have wonky upgrade costs and cant fit in their transport if taken in any sizable numbers, not to mention having lost their deepstrike guidance (and thus termicide tactics). Chosen also lost their one feature other than “they can take more guns that similar horned marines”. And Mutilators may actually be a prank unit.

*Advantage: DA,* by a nautical mile. 

*Fast Attack*

Strong in both books. This was expected in the case of DA and a pleasant surprise for CSM, whose FA section in previous books was…tragic. It's like the goodness from the earlier CSM codex leaked into this slot in the new edition.

*DA: *Thoroughly amazing. Bike armies are a thing now, being able to get good cover saves, cheap special weapons and hit and run. Land Speeders can be spammed like no tomorrow for a good cost and also get respectable cover saves while tossing out high-quality fire. The Darkshroud is likely going to be the KFF Mekboy of 6th edition, only even more infuriating. The flyers are the low point, but they are not actively bad. It’s just outmatched by plenty of other in-codex options that kill infantry and light vehicles much better. 



*CSM:* The Helldrake is very good. Only average against other flyers and the butcher cannon is barely an option given its crap BS, but the baleflamer is so good it makes the package work. It’s still a single weapon, mind, which may not be much compared to the ocean os dakka other flyers can pump out, and won’t help against hordes or 2+ armor, but as it is it’s one of the few things good against cover-boasting Ravenwing, Nob bikers and cover-sneaking Long Fangs. One is almost mandatory at this point. Bikers, like Havocs, are good mostly due to being so cheap, but they have nothing really exciting. No hit&run, scoring or unique weapons or rules, they are just…there for a good cost. 

Warp Talons may have been the result of a bet with another dev regarding who could make the worst unit, and they won (the other unit was Mutilators). Specialists without basic tools to do their one thing (assault grenades), a useless, dangerous ability to sometimes cause Blind if they Deepstrike suicidally close, and priced up the wazoo. Raptor, like bikers, are just unobstrusively there. Spawn are a one-trick pony that is not going to last, and the DA codex does a lot to send them to the bin.
*Advantage: DA, by a fair margin. *

Troops:

The core of the game now, with the number of mission based on objectives having grown, as well as the potential number of objectives on the board. Killy troops that can survive are, plainly speaking, where it’s at. And if they can take killy dedicated transports as well…that’s what broken armies are made of. 

*DA:* Tacticals may actually become their own wing in this book. Very cheap for what they bring (who’d imagine ATSKNF plus stubborn are both worth a single point!), semi-flexible weapon choices, and banners make them stack bonuses with other units. The Ld 8 basic sergeant is lame, but given ATSKNF it’s not a big issue, and even if it is, the upgrade to LD9 is dirt-cheap and still leaves point over comparing to the earlier cost. With some placing, you can get 3 units to benefit from a single salvo banner for insane dakka. Scouts are nice and solid, can get better cover from a Shroud (though they usually won’t be in the same position on the board).

*CSM*: Basic chaos marines are adequate. They lost part of their flexibility in that they no longer come with ccw, and now you also have to pay for their good Leadership, which you should since they don’t auto-rally if they run. If you pay to bring them up to their previous statline, they start getting inefficient, and the Marks are not quite powerful enough to multiply their force in any meaningful way. Khorne won’t make them scary in CC against anyone better than vanilla tacticals. Tzeentch might make the enemy wet himself laughing. Nurgle is somewhat good but expensive, and Slaanesh too focused on CC in a game about dakka. The same goes for banners.

Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not. They are sub-guard guard, becoming zombies via Typhus is gimmicky but not actually good, and they will vanish under flamers, any large blasts, salvo bolters and the like, zombie or not.
*Advantage: Dark Angels*

Heavy Support

Actual tanks, artillery, stuff that goes beyond that lame S4 crap you see in other slots!

*DA:* Devastators actually become a strong choice here. You can get lascannon devs for a very good price, and with Divination primaries twin-linking them they can put most flyers in the ground right quick. The rest is a bit vanilla, but definitely functional. Land Raider variants are there and have plenty of fun passengers to ferry, and can get a 4+ save along with smoke with a Darkshroud nearby, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The plasma speeder is not quite worth the cost, though when combined with rad grenades it can allow for truly murderous ID onslaught against Paladins or any pesky T4 HQ in 2+ armor. The range is the main issue: at 36 inches it would be quite good. It's also fragile given its slot; the cover save helps, but the moment something ignores it or gets lucky, it is effectively shut down.

*CSM:* A crowded section. The Chaos Land Raider is at the same time bad and somewhat unavoidable, being the only assault vehicle in an army very focused on melee. No PotMS, lame carrying capacity, no weapons to help it break lines. Obliterators are still good but the Leadership hit and wonky forced weapon-switching are an issue. Havocs are cheap with autocannons, but bland. The Maulerfiend is so narrow in its focus it may belong on the elder codex: it’s good for busting Land Raider, Monoliths and maybe some fortifications and nothing else without risking more points than it is busting. Forgefiends are not great shots and are easily busted by a drop-pod-delivered melta or distant lascannon shot. Vindicators and Predators are decent but unchanged. 
*Advantage:* A close contest here. DA actually gets more bang for their buck, but the fact is they have other better choices to spend most of their points on. Meanwhile, CSM depends almost entirely on Heavy Support for armor-cracking, plasma goodness and assault troop delivery. *DA still win due* to at least having reliable quality in their picks, even if it is upstaged by other slots.

Allies Matrix

*snerks*

*DA wins*.

Final Considerations:

The DA book does show that a lot of time was spent thinking of how wach variant list is going to play. What kind of force will be built around Sammael? Or Azrael? How will they score, take objectives, or deal with mech/horde? All of those questions are answered. A bit light on anti-air, but by no means defenseless.

The CSM book betrays none of that care. What army is Kharn geared towards? Berserkers in Rhinos that cannot assault until turn 3? Why is Lucius a duelist is his army is all based in tossing out low-strength dakka that ignores cover? Can Abaddon even join marked units? Does Ahriman make a Thousand-son based force any less mediocre on the board?

More than that, DA is where the flavor is. It gives you options to make fun, fluffy armies that are different from each other and work, the kind of armies DA playes want to play and attracted them to the chapter in the first place. It is geared to deliver: Deathwing is a thing? Then they get things that make them work and unique. Timed deep strike. Split fire. Shields and special weapons and no scatter on the bigshots. Oh wait, we’re doing bikes and fast stuff? Then they get Hit&run and good cover. They get special plasma dudes. They carry beacons to summon support right where they need it.

Meanwhile, an Iron Warrior fan better be happy with some gargoyle dreads ad a plain vindicator or expensive defiler, all shoved in the same three slots as ever. Now that’s a mighty heavy armored force blanketing the horizon with cruel steel! Alpha legion has to pray for an Infiltrate warlord trait or use such famous Alpha legionnaires like Huron or Ahriman. Night Lords may as well be absent. Even when they try to add flavor, it seems to only detract from the fun: forced challenges (because my expensive, wily Tzeentch sorcerer surely rose to power charging into any mook with a Power Fist, not using his sorcerous influence in the background to steer fate itself), making Obliterators and Mutilators constantly switch weapons, Daemonic possessed vehicles and the Scroll of Magnus be actively more harmful than helpful unless you have such great luck with the dice you may as well be using d4s on all rolls and you’d still win. 

Yeah, it’s an unfair comparison. It’s easier to think up 3-4 army variants (Deathwing, Razenwing, Greenwing and Doublewing) than 9. But the fact that one book pulled it off and the other did not is still just that: a fact.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Well worth reading.

A nice ( well maybe not if you play CSM) overview piece comparing CSM and DA.


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

Nice summary Sephyr, thorough and well done! 

Honestly, one of the easiest changes they could have made to the CSM dex was keep the Veterans of the Long War upgrade the same cost, but make it Preferred Enemy instead of Hatred.. you know, make it useful instead of gimmicky


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

You made me realize how sad a thing Chaos Marines have become. Reading this also gave me a good idea of what to expect from DA foes on the board. Great type-up! +rep for you.

On the special characters note, C:SM have the same exact issue. Fortunately in a friendly game, you can field custom models with the rules of named characters. WYSIWYG remains important of course. I'm sure we'll see some White Scars armies out there too, using Ravenwing rules.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Fixed a slot mistake. It was past 1AM when I wrote this.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I didn't see chaos bikers mentioned anywhere. I don't have the chaosbook (cost is getting too ridiculous to justify "just to read it once or twice").

However, I thing I heard that nurgle bikers are insane... The dragon's main complaint is it's looks afaik... So I'm not sure the DA lead is as big as you make it seem in that section.

Also, I don't agree with DA landraiders being good delivery systems for melee units... Why would you with the DW assault rules and the ravenwing synergy? If anything, with the way the codex is designed, I would call DA landraiders a bit obsolete. 

While the DA does seem to have an advantage over the somewhat mono-build-esque chaos codex, I think this review is a bit too biased in it's differences.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

Nurgle based chaos builds (Lots of T5 marines, bikes etc) backed by helldrakes and either abbadon or a chaos lord are actually quite solid, insanely difficult kill and are 2nd only to necrons when it comes to attrition warfare. I actually faced 1 in a tournament I lost and it ended up placing 4th overall (Grey knights, Sisters with allied necrons, Cron Air were 1st, 2nd and 3rd). Slanneshi builds with lots of noise marines aren't to bad either but overall outside these exceptions I agree with this comparison and overview and that chaos got shafted. 

Dark angels are very solid and balanced accross the force organisation spectrum and can look foward to both a competive and narrative future in the game where as chaos is more or less a narrative army again and an overly cluttered mess mostly (Outside of nurgle builds and noise marine spam of course). Great overview


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Chaos bikes are mentioned as being cheap but lacking rules and not being scoring. Nurgle bikers are tough, but not hard to counter, and have the same issue as before: they force chaos to get their scoring and their killiness in separate places, which is a weakness with armies like SW, GK, IG and Necrons around. 

Just because you have a better delivery sistem for your termis than the LR does not make it bad. In fact, it's great to have such good options you can pass on your AV14, POTMS, multi-melta-bearing, larger-capacity vehicle! But if you want an assault vehicle to grant you the charge instead of sitting in the open for a turn, it's there for you. 

The dragon is good,yes, but a single good flyer with a single good weapon does not make a codex. Good builds that can be taken in enough quantity to work do.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Csm book has some neat little gimmicks here and there (bikes, aobf, baleflamer) but over all I agree with the OP in all regards, although I'd say the FA section is pretty even. Reading through the da dex really upset me because I realized just how bland the csm book is. Ill keep my night lords (vanilla csm force painted like night lords, because that's all we got) and shelf/sell the rest. 

Internal balance in the da book blows the csm one out of the water.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Sephyr said:


> Just because you have a better delivery sistem for your termis than the LR does not make it bad. In fact, it's great to have such good options you can pass on your AV14, POTMS, multi-melta-bearing, larger-capacity vehicle! But if you want an assault vehicle to grant you the charge instead of sitting in the open for a turn, it's there for you.


I'm sorry, but that is flawed logic... 

It's there, but it's still not a good choice. It's slightly better than the chaos equivalent, but it's still not a very good choice.

If you are going with that reasoning, you might as well call the chaos codex a huuuughe succes. Many of it's entries aren't very good because you can get better, but at least they are there. It's just flawed reasoning.

I'll concede that the DA is deffinatly the sexier book with a way better and well thought out design to it than chaos (at least at first glance), but you were not mentioning some of the stronger units in chaos there (or not nearly giving them the attention they deserve) and exaggerating minor differences (that ultimately don't matter in the bigger scheme of things).


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

elmir said:


> I'm sorry, but that is flawed logic...
> 
> It's there, but it's still not a good choice. It's slightly better than the chaos equivalent, but it's still not a very good choice.


It's the only logic there is. Say I have a BMW in my garage but choose to take the subway to work because it's so cheap and close by. I still have a nice car there if i need it. I am substantially better off that the guy with a Yugo and no access to the subway.

Keep in mind that, precisely because Deathwing Assault is so good, it will be countered to some degrees. Armies that can disrupt Deep Strike will start doing so more often. Having a solid alternate delivery for your scoring, beastly terminators is not a bad thing.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

elmir said:


> I'm sorry, but that is flawed logic...
> 
> It's there, but it's still not a good choice. It's slightly better than the chaos equivalent, but it's still not a very good choice.
> 
> ...


what else can I say? Totally agree.
plus: GW rant & bash & hate :ireful2:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

elmir said:


> It's there, but it's still not a good choice. It's slightly better than the chaos equivalent, but it's still not a very good choice.


The Crusader sat near a Dakka banner with it's twin linked salvo firing hurricanes would like to have a word with you.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

The 300+ you invested in that "scary" amount of firepower replied that I was right 

Edit: and I think that banner only works for regular old bolters... not hurricane bolters or stormbolters. They are after all different weapons...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

A hurricane bolter is three sets of twin linked bolters that is fired as a single weapon.

This is assuming that you were taking the banner already - obviously paying stupid points *only* to benefit the Crusader is moronic. My point is that if you're already rocking the dakka banner then putting it in a Crusader or at least near it is more synergised than, say, ML Devs or other HS choices who gain no benefit at all from the points sunk into the banner, and you've got plenty of other options for the heavy weapons you lose by doing so.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

This is more a case of that banner being very good then, rather than the LR all of the sudden being a godlike tank in codex DA... right? That was what the original point was... and it's getting massively derailed.

And even then, that's a pretty damn expensive bunker we are talking about... Maybe we'll see some lists with that in it, but I highly doubt it because of the pricetag associated with it. 

The necron codex had a lot of that type of synergy too... But I wonder how many lists out there actually used the dangerous terrain shard/tremor staff combo's and other very expensive fancy toys that are just not efficient enough for the pricetag associated with it. 

The bunker idea might seem like a good plan, but I doubt we'll see a lot of that on tables soon. I might be wrong though, I'll write an apology in this thread then...


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

the new FAQ for Noise marines (can have 1 Blastmaster per 5models, 2 per 10+) imo balance a bit the troop department, we can finally take 5man fearless units with a fairly decent long ranged weapon for 125pts

I disagree with the FA slot (chaos is equal if not slightly better then DA) and with the HQ section (the DA seems at least equal to chaos there)

Overall the DA book is obviously better, but not by such a large margin imo especially after todays FAQs


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> they don’t impact their armies that much other than making elites into troops selections/scoring here and there.


I'd disagree with this. The Lord can take the Burning Brand of Skalathrax and makes units Fearless, which is pretty good for his low points cost. Noise Marines, with Blastmasters now available at 5 men and doubling at 10, are very much the Troops to have with Chaos, IMHO. Chaos HQ is all about supporting the army, which is probably WHY they beat DA HQ.

The Salvo Crusader can also re-roll 1s to Wound against Chaos if you make it Venerable (screw Deathwing Vehicle). It makes Cultists disappear very quickly. I ask if the Standard does indeed from inside a Crusader? I'm sure it does, but can't be bothered to look up the rules :/

Midnight


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It's not "suddenly godlike". You said it was "obsolete" - meaning it had no function, contributed nothing to the army, and was sub-par to every other choice available. I am disagreeing. At the least, it's solid (you know all those Vanilla Players who've been using them for years with pretty good success?) and at best it could be very playable competitively.

Is it OMGWTF overpowered? No.
Is it a choice that'll get you laughed out the tournament? No.

It has a use - particularly in Greenwing, because you don't want your only squad of Deathwing to be Deep Striking all alone turn 1. You may in fact want to keep them as a counter-assault unit to protect your BBB (Banner Bolter Bunker) from MCs and the like.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Aaaah, 

I'm assuming this little paragraph ruffled your feathers a bit:



> Also, I don't agree with DA landraiders being good delivery systems for melee units... Why would you with the DW assault rules and the ravenwing synergy? If anything, with the way the codex is designed, I would call DA landraiders a bit obsolete.


The obsolete bit more or less refered to the LR being used as a delivery system for your melee units. Given the global rules for deathwing assaults and every ravenwing biker having a teleport homer, dumping 250+ points for a transport is kind of reduntant when you can just double your squadsize for that pointcost... I still stand by that.

But fair enough... It's probably a very meta-thing, but I haven't seen a LR being fielded forever in our local store or seen one at a tourny (granted, only 1 attended so far since 6th). If they do make a come-back, that would be great (but again, I doubt it will). 

But I just don't see the LRer difference between chaos and DA as a reason to say that DA win out in the heavy support choice. The OP stated that it was a good melee unit delivery system and I disagreed strongly with that. This is afterall a thread that was about the differences between chaos and DA, rather than internal balance issues of the DA codex in itself.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Ruffled feathers imply personal feelings. I play neither Chaos nor DA, so actually I couldn't care less. I just think that writing a perfectly valid choice of Heavy Support off because it isn't the cheapest way to get something into the enemy deployment zone is wrong and misleading.

If you use it simply as a ram, moving as far forward as fast as possible in order to assault, then you may be right - it isn't cost effective. But using Land Raiders like that hasn't been cost effective since the meltagun rose to power in 5th. However if you use the size of it's hull to extend the range of psychic powers, roadblock enemy vehicles and hide other units/vehicles, or use it's AV14 immunity to almost everything at more than 12" range to protect a valuable scoring/melee unit, suddenly it brings abilities nothing else in the game can.

I've seen Loyalist Land Raiders used perfectly well in 6th, certainly better than Defilers, Chaos Preds, Chaos Vindicators et al. So yeah, I'd consider the ability to use Crusaders as a benefit, never mind the synergy with other units/wargear.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

Sethis said:


> However if you use the size of it's hull to extend the range of psychic powers, roadblock enemy vehicles and hide other units/vehicles, or use it's AV14 immunity to almost everything at more than 12" range to protect a valuable scoring/melee unit, suddenly it brings abilities nothing else in the game can.



Q: Can Psykers use a Transport’s Fire Point(s) to manifest powers
that require line of sight whilst still embarked? (p78)
A: No. Note, however, that witchfire powers specifically allow
you to do so and are the one exception to this rule.

That knocks out quite a few psychic powers if I'm not mistaken, not trying to be a dick, but that's in the new errata.

The one thing I will say about the rest of this thread is I'm pretty sure the OP must work with Beasts of War, because the 'divination, divination, divination' sounds like every video I've watched of theirs concerning 6th.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Chosen of Malal said:


> The one thing I will say about the rest of this thread is I'm pretty sure the OP must work with Beasts of War, because the 'divination, divination, divination' sounds like every video I've watched of theirs concerning 6th.


It doesn't take working with BoW to have a basic understanding of relative usefulness.

Let's look at the Primaris for the basic book.

Biomancy: Average-strength AP2 shooting. Can be resisted by target, allows cover and invul saves, not gonna wound big stuff.

Pyromancy: A slightly improved flamer. Allows armor and invul saves, can be resisted, requires you to be right up there in the enemy's face, something notmany psykers are meant to do.

Telekinesis: It's a...thing that beats stuff up a bit, allows all saves, can be resisted, shut down, etc. May wound a Chaos Spawn on a good day.

Telepathy: A dangerous close-range power that can put wounds on almost any unit but will whiff pretty much half the time. Can be resisted.

Divination: Twin-linking your best shooting unit every turn with amazing range. Makes non-skyfire units twice as likely to scroe hits of flyers and FMCs. Also works in melee to let you uttelry destroy an enemy unit via shooting and CC if your guys can shoot and then assault. Cannot be resisted, but can be shut down by Ekdar or Nids...like ever other power. 

When I pick Biomancy on my Daemon Prince, I have very good odds of never getting the Iron Arm power I really want. Armies with access to divination are 100% sure they'll be able to have at least one amazing power, guaranteed. and the others on the list are not bad either, with a couple of exceptions.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> Telekinesis: It's a...thing that beats stuff up a bit, allows all saves, can be resisted, shut down, etc. May wound a Chaos Spawn on a good day.


Disagreed. Damage potential? Low. Strikedown? Fantastic. Aim at the Nob and if the Power Klaw wants to move up, the whole mob is now in Difficult Terrain. It works on saved wounds too, so it's really rather good in my opinion.

It's a moot point, of course, because Divination is hands-down the best at Level 1, and probably Level 2 (Telepathy's Invisibility and Hallucinations pushing it up to approximately equal at Level 2). Divination has some shitty stuff, but there are only 2 powers I don't actively want (Forewarning and Scrier's Gaze) and the Primaris is really good, so it's a pretty good chance to get 2 powers you like. If I roll up both powers as Forewarning (or whatever the Overwatch one's called), Gaze, or perhaps Precognition I'll gladly swap out one for Prescience and cast it on 2 units instead.

Midnight


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Disagreed. Damage potential? Low. Strikedown? Fantastic. Aim at the Nob and if the Power Klaw wants to move up, the whole mob is now in Difficult Terrain. It works on saved wounds too, so it's really rather good in my opinion.


Strikedown strikes me as very situational. Even against ork, if they are close enough to be affected, they are likely pulling off the charge even in difficult terrain, especially if he is about to declare Waagh. It won't do anything against Necrons or IG, or MCs who move easily through terrain (though dropping a DP to I4 is good. Then again you can just stay in cover and drop it to 1!)

It actually seems more useful to keep a unit from running away from your charging guys, but if that's worth a whole psyker power, it would depend on your army and meta.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Re: original post.

Depressingly accurate.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> Allies Matrix
> 
> *snerks*
> 
> *DA wins*.


In what? Numbers obviously. However, you will never win a prize for being able to choose among a greater number of allies.

You may only have one.

So when it comes to the allies matrix, the win goes to whichever army can ally in Necrons or Grey Knights. Sad, I know, but an unavoidable fact. At allies of convenience level and above, CSM have access to the prior, and DA the latter.

However, Grey Knights can bring very little to the table that DA does not already have. While Necrons can give you that Elite slot and Heavy Support (or anything!) action you may want to add to your Chaos army and come out of it with a force to be reckoned with.

Thus, I contest that you are wrong. Chaos wins that particular section, in the current state of the game.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> So when it comes to the allies matrix, the win goes to whichever army can ally in Necrons or Grey Knights. Sad, I know, but an unavoidable fact. At allies of convenience level and above, CSM have access to the prior, and DA the latter.


No no no no no. Any army, *any army at all*, can be better with Imperial Guard Allies. They are the best allied detachment one can take, and Dark Angels are BBs with them to give blobs ATSKNF and Divination.

DA+IG > Chaos + any allying combo you care to mention (of course, that's not to say Dark Angels with Imperial Guard are strictly better than Chaos, just that it's the best allying combo in the game).

Midnight


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> Re: original post.
> 
> Depressingly accurate.


I don't know about accuracy, but it definitely feels like it is depressingly biased.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> No no no no no. Any army, *any army at all*, can be better with Imperial Guard Allies.


Not Tau.

As someone who more frequently plays against and teamed with Imperial Guard than any other army, I'd rather have Necrons against, oh, probably 60% of the field.

Choosing an allied detachment is about filling out your blind spots and playing to your strengths. Imperial Guard can not help any army do that.

While I agree that in DA's and CSM's case, yes, Imperial Guard is _often*_ going to be the preferred ally, they can both have IG as allies at ally of convenience level and above.

Thus, the tiebreaker is Necrons.

Point stands.



*Absolutism rarely applies anyway.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Not Tau.
> 
> As someone who more frequently plays against and teamed with Imperial Guard than any other army, I'd rather have Necrons against, oh, probably 60% of the field.
> 
> ...


ATSKNF on Guard blobs, with Divination, compensates for Guard's shitty BS and Leadership issues. What do Necrons do for T4, 3+ armoured units with Bolters that Imperial Guard don't? Add more durability? Both armies have Terminators and CSM have FNP/T5 readily available. Add more anti-vehicle? Gauss is hardly reliable, and Marines have Meltaguns, Missiles, Plasma Guns and in Chaos' case, Autocannons to do that. Flyers? Imperial Guard have the Vendetta, an excellent Flyer. Flyer defence? Imperial Guard are THE AA Codex with Hydrae and Vendettae.

I understand the Scythes are great as an army or as backup to that army, but I don't see how the Vendetta is any worse and I don't see how Necrons are better than Guard as Allies. Imperial Guard can plug into any list, Necrons are very dependant. Adding more T4 3+ bodies to an army full of T4 3+ bodies is fairly useless, really. Tesla getting lots of hits may well be a deal for Chaos, but with Dark Angels and their Salvo 4 Bolters and Storm Bolters everywhere? Less so.

Midnight


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> ATSKNF on Guard blobs, with Divination, compensates for Guard's shitty BS and Leadership issues. What do Necrons do for T4, 3+ armoured units with Bolters that Imperial Guard don't? Add more durability? Both armies have Terminators and CSM have FNP/T5 readily available. Add more anti-vehicle? Gauss is hardly reliable, and Marines have Meltaguns, Missiles, Plasma Guns and in Chaos' case, Autocannons to do that. Flyers? Imperial Guard have the Vendetta, an excellent Flyer. Flyer defence? Imperial Guard are THE AA Codex with Hydrae and Vendettae.
> 
> I understand the Scythes are great as an army or as backup to that army, but I don't see how the Vendetta is any worse and I don't see how Necrons are better than Guard as Allies. Imperial Guard can plug into any list, Necrons are very dependant. Adding more T4 3+ bodies to an army full of T4 3+ bodies is fairly useless, really. Tesla getting lots of hits may well be a deal for Chaos, but with Dark Angels and their Salvo 4 Bolters and Storm Bolters everywhere? Less so.
> 
> Midnight


I see you've succumbed to blurting a response after reading one or two sentences of a post.

Read again, this time focus on the last three sentences.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Not Tau.


Why not? They get excellent troops in blobs and vets (because FW and Kroot suck) boosted by a utility giving, morale buffing, or psychic HQ. They get air superiority in Vendettas. They get S10 Barrage Large Blasts to go hand in hand with their S10 Railguns. They can even get Marbo for linebreaker if they like.

Seems like an improvement to me.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> In what? Numbers obviously. However, you will never win a prize for being able to choose among a greater number of allies.
> 
> You may only have one.
> 
> ...


I'll stand my ground on this one. DA not only get more allies from the Matrix, they get more out of them Let's not forget that CSm actually have gimped Battle Brother in Chaos Daemons: you can't mix-and-match ICs and units like everyone else, Icons don't work for guidance in Deepstrikes, some powers/combos don't work.

Meanwhile. DA are actual Battle Brother with IG, getting not only the most cost-effective jack-of-all-trades in the game, but getting to boost it with their amazing Psykers: twin-link their shooting with Divination, make them fearless, make them fire with full BS during overwatch...even give Ogryns a 4+ inv save if that's your fancy.

And let''s not forget things from other MeQ armies: Long Fangs to double down on Split Fire goodness and Rune Priests for great psyker defense, Blood Angels if you want a side of scoring assault troops with meltagun in Fast Razorbacks, Fast Vindicators, or even a StormRaven if you want to splurge. Or how about a very cost-effective Coteaz messing up enemy deepstrikes, paired with a Vindicare sniper cracking Land Raiders just in time for your arriving Deathwing to pulp the passengers with twin-linked bolters and plasma cannons?

CSM mostly get to bring over Orks for cheap scoring bodies, Guard to try and steal some shooting thunder, and Necrons if they want to try a poor-man's flyer spam. None of those really work together with the army or bring joint effectiveness. It's codex spackle, to put it simply.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

darkreever said:


> I don't know about accuracy, but it definitely feels like it is depressingly biased.


Care to tell me how? I really tried to give both armies a fair shake. What amazing units did I ignore and what terrible units did I hype?


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

You probably (in my humble opinion) understated CSM bikes a little bit. Sure, they lack some goodies, but come much cheaper then ravenwing. 

And they can do much - t6 meltas, t5 FNP (maybe outflanking), make CC bikes with khorne, rage, and a AoBF lord. 

But while DA have the advantage (maybe) only time will tell how much better, or maybe worse, that they are.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

Sephyr said:


> It doesn't take working with BoW to have a basic understanding of relative usefulness.
> 
> Let's look at the Primaris for the basic book.
> 
> ...


My post stated nothing of the usefulness of Divination, nor did it compare it with any other discipline, I just get sick of seeing everyone act as if it's the only one to choose. I played Eldar for quite a few years, and it feels to me like GW just gave everyone one of the tried and true Eldar psychic powers, and it causes any other work they put into powers worthless, because everyone has a hard-on for it. I like Telepathy just fine, and despite what everyone says, Nurgle is just good too.

Most any review I've seen concerning psychic powers, and army lists in general, seems very one-trick to me. I prefer to play the game it was really meant to be played, winning through out-playing, not because my pizza came with more cheese.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> Care to tell me how? I really tried to give both armies a fair shake. What amazing units did I ignore and what terrible units did I hype?


Lets look at troops as a start, and just the basic ones rather than those unlocked by HQ's (of which chaos has more than double the choice for, disregarding the fact that some are sub par choices.)

Thats the tactical squad and scout squad for the Dark Angels vs the chaos marine squad and cultist mob for chaos.

Between the tactical and chaos marine squads the tactical is slightly cheaper, but at the cost of a sergeant on par with the aspiring champion; in order to have that you need to make it cost slightly more than the chaos marine squad.

In regards to numbers, the chaos marines can bring more per slot and for less, or as much should you decide to return them to their fifth edition incarnation. Is this a large positive for chaos? No not really; but it does allow for you to potentially keep slots free.

On the flip side though, the tactical squad has better weapon options; namely that it can take a heavy weapon at five strong. Chaos are forced to take at least ten to gain access to those, and receive no further weapon benefit from having more than ten (a mistake in my opinion.) Conversely, chaos marine squads are also able to take a second special weapon, something the tactical squad distinctly lacks. (And lets not forget the fact that chaos have the option to remove their bolters for a better close combat punch at no cost or retain them for a small fee.)

Both have access to rhino's for transports, the tacticals also have the drop pod and razorback allowing for a greater amount of variety in the tactics used.

Squad leader wise chaos starts off with the better end of the deal though the veteran sergeant is his equal (you just need to make the squad more expensive to be on par.) Overall they have access to the same weapons, the champion able to get a slightly cheaper storm bolter and the sergeant the thunder hammer.

So overall:
DA
-slightly cheaper (if no vet)
-access to heavy at five
-more transport options
-smaller unit (easier to manouver but easier to wipe out)

Chaos
-start with champion
-cheaper marines
-two special weapons
-can have ultra-grit or be close combat oriented
-access to marks and banners
-larger numbers (harder to manouver but harder to manouver)


Between scouts and cultists, I personally find scouts to be the better performers; in games they have actually done more than just stand there and die.

That being said, cultists are cheaper and have access to greater numbers, which can make them great for just sitting on an objective and absorbing damage. (Lets face it, thirty five of these guys cost about as much as the tactical squad and with the same leadership; put them in cover and you do have to dedicate a fair amount of fire at them.)

Scout, on the other hand, have access to better guns and gear, namely camo cloaks to make them very, very hard to remove from cover and sniper rifles.

For these two:

DA
-long range weapons
-camo cloaks
-overall better statline

Chaos
-greater numbers
-access to up to three cheap flamers


Overall neither side is better in this section. Chaos has a slightly better power armoured choice but the Dark Angels have two decent choices in troops; rather than chaos's one good and one bullet sponge.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Feels like darkreever should've been the one doing the comparison between the two army's FOCs. 

Besides that I've been trying to find good information on units worth looking at in CSM armies and it's very minimal IMO. HQ just pick a Nurgle or Slaanesh Lord on a bike and stick them with a squad of bikes and/or Typhus if you are running Cultist mob. Khorne Lord on Juggernaut with AoBF with Spawns look interesting as well. Troops, either Plague or Noise Marines. Fast Attack, 2 Helldrakes with the bikes taking up the last slot. Heavy Support is basically Fiends and/or AutoHavocs/Flakkvocs. Elites....maybe Hellbrute? Besides that nothing that seems worth it after everything else, depending on your list. 

Listening to my friend go over the Dark Angels book a few days ago, I do feel kind of jipped. Not to the point of DA > CSM no matter what, but it seems to be an uphill climb for the Chaos in most aspects.

BTW, if anyone can link me to a good CSM 6th ed guide, that would be much appreciated. Haven't found much going through here and I'm just looking for other ideas and opinions.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

@darkreever-

Regular chaos marines also have to deal with Champion of Chaos making your champion thorw himself at every character with a witchblade, power Klaw and Nemesis Force weapon. So close combat is not generally where you'll want to be with them, since they a-) bring nothing special to the role other than a decent number of attacks, and b-) Will have poor morale issues once they lose their champion, which they will.

To boost them to anything equal to or better than tacticals from the competitive books, the costs pile on really fast. In the end, all they have over loyalists is the extra special weapon. It's a decent perk, granted, but is it enough to match shootier troops with better weapons that don't permanently break and can't be swept?

As for cultists, being able to take 3 flamers requires a huge mob, one that will likely be butchered by shooting before bringing them to use. I've reliably seen them run away after a single heavy flamer shot served by an arriving Dread from a pod. If being cheap is the only thing you have going for you, you can't be relied upon to do much (unless we are talking huge hordes here). Guardsmen get orders and even grots get mob rule, at no extra cost. Lifting cultitsts out of the mediocre category again costs points that negate their one strength (low cost).

You also forgot that DA tacticals have better transport choices, including drop pods.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> To boost them to anything equal to or better than tacticals from the competitive books, the costs pile on really fast.


Yes and no.

If I was going to take, a ten strong squad with meltaguns, a power weapon, rhino, and mark of Nurgle or Slaanesh the cost is nearly identical to a tactical squad with rhino, veteran sergeant with power weapon, and meltagun and multi-melta. They can cost as much as a land raider if a Slaanesh squad is given the icon of excess, but feel no pain is kinda worth it on I5.



Sephyr said:


> In the end, all they have over loyalists is the extra special weapon.


And the ability to retain ultra-grit, or the ability to improve the entire squads leadership, and marks, and a slight reduction in cost per model.



Sephyr said:


> I've reliably seen them run away after a single heavy flamer shot served by an arriving Dread from a pod.


Then your opponent did a poor job and likely bunched them up or something; though like I said they do waste the time of enemy units. Assuming you purposefully chose to bring your dread down near cultists and engage them means that you ignored bringing it elsewhere.



Sephyr said:


> You also forgot that DA tacticals have better transport choices, including drop pods.


You may have forgotten to read my entire post, where I mention that Dark Angel tacticals have access to the razorback and drop pod, and then later proceed to point that out as one of their good points.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

darkreever said:


> And the ability to retain ultra-grit, or the ability to improve the entire squads leadership, and marks, and a slight reduction in cost per model.


Which Grey Hunters also have, combined with ATSKNF, for a neater package of points. As many people have noticed, CSM start to lose bang for their buck as soon as you cross the 15ppm treshold. 




darkreever said:


> Then your opponent did a poor job and likely bunched them up or something; though like I said they do waste the time of enemy units. Assuming you purposefully chose to bring your dread down near cultists and engage them means that you ignored bringing it elsewhere.


There are only so many ways you can spread 30+ models and not have a big traffic and pedestriam jam goin on. Even then, it's not hard to get 5+ under a template when you can walk 6 inches after leaving the pod. And bringing the pod down near a cultist mob is actually a very good way to clear a back objective (sternguard is better, granted) and then forc eyou to stall your attack to hurry back and rescue the cultists. Though they can tarpit if made fearless, but then we fall into the whole point sinkhole issue. 




darkreever said:


> You may have forgotten to read my entire post, where I mention that Dark Angel tacticals have access to the razorback and drop pod, and then later proceed to point that out as one of their good points.


Entirely my bad here. Though I believe it is more of a factor than you have figured, then. Being able to stack premium-weapon-carring vehicles, guided Deepstrikes, flakk missiles on scoring troops (not godly but nice to have the option!) are all very good options to have, especially compared to adding, day, a 6+ invulnerable or Fear to a unit of CSM.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

But this is rather my point in regards to your review being biased. In the troops section alone, neither side has any real advantage and yet there you are claiming it for the Dark Angels.

I would argue that both armies are fairly even over all; with maybe the Dark Angels being better in fast attack and Chaos better in elites.


Also in regards to grey hunters, I thought this was about Dark Angels and chaos marines? Do you really need to bring in a third, mostly unrelated group, to try and disprove my point?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

As I see it:

HQ - Chaos
Troops - About equal
Elite - DA
Fast Attack - narrowly, DA, but CSM has very good Fast Attack too
Heavy Support - DA


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Well, I've played both DA and Chaos on and off for a couple of decades now, and that summary felt heavily tilted towards the DA for no good reason there.

For example: Yes, the DA get some very nice troop options, but nothing that's notably better than the Chaos ones. Add in FOC manipulation and you can get bike and/or Terminator troops, which is great, but Chaos can get Plague Marines who are one of the best units in the game bar none. T5, FnP, defensive and assault grenades, access to melta, flamer or plasma, ccw/ bp and bolters, and Poisoned close combat attacks. I've seen them take the charge of a 5-man Terminator squad led by a Terminator Chaplain and win in two rounds.

With Noise Marines you can add in I5 assault troops with an AP3 Heavy Flamer, or a shooting unit that ignores cover. In fact, once you consider that Thousand Sons have a 3++ no matter what and Heldrakes ignore cover too with Baleflamers, Chaos rapidly starts to take control of the cover game. Overall troops is pretty much a tie.

Looking at Fast Attack, those T6 Nurgle bikers are as good as anything the DA can bring along. Alternatively you can have Slaanesh bikers with I5 and FnP (and confer it to your Lord, too, which is very handy). The Heldrake is, frankly, perilously close to being broken with the Baleflamer and is also AFAIK the most durable flyer in the basic game at the moment. Though I don't want to start talking about direct unit vs unit counters, the Heldrake is pretty much a hard counter to the entire Ravenwing.

There's also some odd reasoning regarding the Helbrute. Helbrutes are very cheap and the Crazed rule now has a good chance of breaking Shaken and Stunned. It might be missing the option for an off-hand Autocannon but the Missile Launcher is still as good a utility weapon as it's ever been.

The Champions of Chaos rule keeps getting presented as some great disadvantage, but it's really not much of an issue. If you run an IC in a squad without a Champion in it as well to deal with Challenges when needed, you're doing it wrong. The Tzeentch Sorcerer mentioned earlier needs simply a Sigil of Corruption and a Force Axe to make most opponents wary of going anywhere near him in any case. And let's not forget that against armies with weaker Characters your squad leaders can potentially become very nasty with a good EOTG roll or two. And yes, I have had a basic Champion become a Deamon Prince already. (And spawned my Lord twice. The Gods are fickle.)

Last but not least, the Allies question. As I recall, two of the most feared armies out there at the moment are Necrons and Daemons, and CSM can ally with both of them. Flamers and Screamers are still every bit as nasty as they were before the DA book came out and I don't want to think about facing a Flying Circus/ Heldrake combo. (Also, Epidemius.)

The bottom line is that DA is probably the slightly stronger codex overall, but not by anything like the margin being suggested here. The Chaos book is uneven, contradictory and full of potentially amazing or terrible units, which is exactly what Chaos should be.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

Since Majere has pointed out the boon table, I'd also like to add that the outlook on Champion of Chaos in general as a bad rule seems to stem from the fact that your champion has a chance of becoming a spawn...a slight chance. It's one entry on a a rather lengthy list of bonuses. It starts to seem that any 'competitive' player is completely paralyzed by fear of chance...even a slight chance. Would it really be that terrible for say, an aspiring champion, to become a spawn...it really isn't that bad of a model, and a sidegrade at worst. I'm sure it would be depressing for your insanely priced, kitted to Hell lord or sorcerer to get this result, but is it frightening enough to discredit the entire codex? I don't think so.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Chosen of Malal said:


> chance of becoming a spawn...a slight chance.


Slight chance indeed, your only about 5.6% likely to get that result, more than some but its nothing like the odds of nothing happening.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

darkreever said:


> Slight chance indeed, your only about 5.6% likely to get that result, more than some but its nothing like the odds of nothing happening.


Or, dare we say, something good happening.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Chosen of Malal said:


> Or, dare we say, something good happening.


Well there is a 78% chance of something other than nothing or spawnhood, so good is bound to be in there.:biggrin:


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

An even then if it was a naked champion, spawndom is arguably an upgrade. 

Champion of Chaos cops a lot of flak, some of it undeserved. Yes your Aspiring Champion might get splattered by an enemy HG or elite unit but on the other hand there are a lot of targets he can kill; ig, ork, tau, eldar, dark eldar squad leaders, and has a good chance of killing space marine ones too. Then suddenly, bam, free upgrades.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

I do agree with spawndom being an upgrade for naked champions, especially on the rare chance that it's a cultist champion. It really makes no sense to me why folks get so negative about something so small, I mean, you could turn into a spawn, but you have an equal chance of becoming a DP...that's a risk I'm willing to take.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Chosen of Malal said:


> I do agree with spawndom being an upgrade for naked champions, especially on the rare chance that it's a cultist champion. It really makes no sense to me why folks get so negative about something so small, I mean, you could turn into a spawn, but you have an equal chance of becoming a DP...that's a risk I'm willing to take.



My personal issue is that sometime you buy a unit or HQ because of what it has and want it to stay that way. I'd be just as pissed if my Nurgle Lord on a bike with a Sigil of Corruption, Power Fist and Lightning Claw became a Daemon Prince as if he became a Spawn. Gone ate the 4++, the speed that lets him keep up with his unit, one point of Toughness and being Fleet. 

It's especially grating because it's supposed to be a _reward_. Good job killing Pedro Kantor in that challenge, Huron! Turn into a spawn and lose all the stuff that makes you cool as a prize!

At least in most other codexes rewards don't have little traps inside them. :threaten:


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

And, as the books have always said, from the beginning, the Gods are fickle...maybe they didn't want Huron to kill Pedro, maybe they wanted random jackhole number 5 to do it. Those who adapt survive.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

First game I played with the new Chaos book, Lord in Termie Armour with 9-man Termie bodyguard kills a Guard Sergeant on my turn 2. Turns into Daemon Prince. Promptly eats something on the order of 9 Autocannons. Dies. Gives up Warlord VP, I lose his trait, and a ~200pt model. Fun times. Kinda turned me off the table (but I hate randomness built into special rules anyway, so...).


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sounds like your opponent either had some supremely good rolls or you turned out nothing but one's.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Sounds like your opponent either had some supremely good rolls or you turned out nothing but one's.


It's not hard to kill a wargear-free Daemon Prince with a 2000pt IG army sat about 12" away from you. :laugh:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> It's not hard to kill a wargear-free Daemon Prince with a 2000pt IG army sat about 12" away from you. :laugh:


Its a little tougher when that wargear free daemon prince comes marked (assuming you had a mark) and with power armour. Nine autocannons should have struggled to harm your prince.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Its a little tougher when that wargear free daemon prince comes marked (assuming you had a mark) and with power armour. Nine autocannons should have struggled to harm your prince.


Not really. That's 18 shots, and you can use Bring it Down! to make them twin-linked against an MC. You're hitting 9 times on average, about 14 with re-rolls, and wounding on 2s. 3+ armor will leave an intact Prince with a single wound left in the first case and very dead in the second.

DPs were never the unstoppable beasts many made them out to be before the new book. They -were- very badly priced and way too cheap, though, but I've had even Nurgle Princes (when they were still T6) go down to 2 squads of tacticals rapid-firing it with bolters in a single turn. More than once, in fact.

Hell, I even had a lone Eldar Guardian, the last one in the squad, charge my Nurgle DP back in 5th and take its last two wounds. Could be I just suck at rolling saves on them. :ireful2:


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Sethis said:


> First game I played with the new Chaos book, Lord in Termie Armour with 9-man Termie bodyguard kills a Guard Sergeant on my turn 2. Turns into Daemon Prince. Promptly eats something on the order of 9 Autocannons. Dies. Gives up Warlord VP, I lose his trait, and a ~200pt model. Fun times. Kinda turned me off the table (but I hate randomness built into special rules anyway, so...).


First TWO games I played with the new book, my Nurgle Terminator Lord Spawned himself on the first challenge. I was fortunate that the Spawn survived, but hey.

The way I look at it is this- for every time I lose a character because of an iffy EOTG roll, I still took out an enemy character, and all but the most ridiculously over-equipped Lord can die anyway if he rolls enough 1s in the combat. Bad dice happen- the Chaos book just has a particularly dramatic way that they can happen


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