# GW Posts Half-year Press Statement



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

For those who are curious on how GW is doing here you go:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Half-year-press-statement.pdf


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Pretty healthy balance sheet for GW, I wonder what tack the complainers are going to take to prove how rooted GW is with this?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Nice to see GW making profit in all regions including down under, i guess there bussiness model does work after all


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Hey they might even be making enough to reconsider your resume! Good luck.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Saw an article in the evening standard yesterday about GW bucking the recession and the change in management....shares dropped slightly though so time to buy in for those interested.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I guess we can expect the yearly price increase any day now :crazy:


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I guess we can expect the yearly price increase any day now :crazy:


Yea, it's like Death and Taxes really....it's inevitable.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

When I started reading this my stereo, which is in random, kicked on the Imperial March half way through my read.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> When I started reading this my stereo, which is in random, kicked on the Imperial March half way through my read.


Well that's rather inauspicious. >.>



Magpie_Oz said:


> Pretty healthy balance sheet for GW, I wonder what tack the complainers are going to take to prove how rooted GW is with this?


They're mean and I don't like them, and the universe has a way of giving me what I want.



slaaneshy said:


> Saw an article in the evening standard yesterday about GW bucking the recession and the change in management....shares dropped slightly though so time to buy in for those interested.


If my hours of watching futurama and listening to the news in the background while I argue on the internet aimlessly, it's that shares almost always drop after a change in management, and that it doesn't necessarily reflect the competence (or lack thereof) of the new management.

However, my superstitions direct me to it reflecting the EVIL kind of competence, because of the inauspicious nature of Jace's auditory omens, also: avoid alliteration. always.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

If I were an investor, I'd really consider this A-1. The most surprising turnaround being Australia, going from losses to profits. I guess I was wrong: their business plan is going well and people will pay the outrageous local prices after all...


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> When I started reading this my stereo, which is in random, kicked on the Imperial March half way through my read.


You do know that's our corporate anthem, right? And that we all sing it (in a rather nifty _a cappella_ arrangement) at every team briefing?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

boreas said:


> If I were an investor, I'd really consider this A-1. The most surprising turnaround being Australia, going from losses to profits. I guess I was wrong: their business plan is going well and people will pay the outrageous local prices after all...


As has been discussed to death, GW isn't unreasonable in terms of hobby costs, and unlike most hobbies you almost never have to replace things (though our sense of SHINY! usually demands we do so regardless). Only the ultra-competitive players are actually forced to purchase large amounts of plastic crack as the meta shifts about so they can keep on top, but for the non-tournament player, you can get away with a lot less.

Are the prices a pain in the wallet? Yes. But honestly so are the prices for everything these days. Everyone is making less money right now so of course the cost looks unreasonable. 

And before people start throwing about the prices from the early 90s and how much better things were, I want to point out that the models were smaller, generally worse quality too, had a lot less options for how to build the models without extensive conversion work.

Oh and a large number of armies were mono-pose metal kits of ehhhh quality that took a lot of care, love, blood and pain to get assembled right and not have them break on you later.

A $30 USD kit in 1998 (the tail end of Rogue Trader) would cost you $42.26 now. And is anyone really going to say that these:










are honestly better quality miniatures than these:








?

I'm not trying to instigate an argument here, but we have much, much, MUCH nicer models now than we used to, with a lot more options too. So yes, GW used to be cheaper, but the models used to be worse too. We're paying for them to not only keep making better and better quality models but to continue improving them. And if you don't think GW is improving, look at the old Dark Eldar versus the new.


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

It's good to see GW posting strong results - especially impressive as the results from a year ago contained £2m more in royalties than this set of numbers (from the release of the Space Marine computer game I think?). As much as we don't like them increasing prices, I do still believe they are good value for quality vs price compared to their competition, and for price vs long term enjoyment compared to leisure things I spend cash on such as cinema and football tickets.

You can see a bit part of why they can keep on top in the quality department in the results - investments included £3m in property and machinery, and nearly £1.7m listed as invested in product development. There aren't many companies in the games industry who can be putting that much into their future products.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Zion said:


> As has been discussed to death, GW isn't unreasonable in terms of hobby costs, and unlike most hobbies you almost never have to replace things (though our sense of SHINY! usually demands we do so regardless).


I'm not saying that GW's prices are outrageous... Actually, the minies are pretty high quality. It's the different local pricing that bugs me. Why should I pay 20% more in Canada than in the US? Why can't I buy from UK sellers anymore? 

And that's not only GW. I never buy locally when I have to pay 20% more for the same thing (eg electronics, plastic model kits, etc). I'll pay more in a local store if I consider the owner or employees give me a good service. That, at least in my area is definitely NOT the case with GW products... Tha't why I'm surprised at GW's success in Oz. I really expected a lot of the hobbyists there the quit or find alternate sources (like eBay), thus further lowering the sales. But I was wrong.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I guess we can expect the yearly price increase any day now


You bite your tongue, sir!

This is most encouraging, hopefully the increasing trend will lead to more shinies for me to blow my money on


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

IDK about the rest of you but I've been getting all my stuff for 20%+ off so prices are not too bad... It's really not hard to find unless you're super lazy. 

Been considering a retailer too... a $4500 investment gets you a 45% discount on whatever you want. Not too bad if you get several friends to invest and sell off the rest of whatever you want at full retail.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Arcane said:


> Been considering a retailer too... a $4500 investment gets you a 45% discount on whatever you want. Not too bad if you get several friends to invest and sell off the rest of whatever you want at full retail.


*Trust me* when I say that that road will leave you spending a lot more money in the long run.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> *Trust me* when I say that that road will leave you spending a lot more money in the long run.


Why is that mate?

I know to get such a deal in the first place you need trade references usually but is there an ongoing supply requirement or something?


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why is that mate?
> 
> I know to get such a deal in the first place you need trade references usually but is there an ongoing supply requirement or something?


It's very easy to end up spending all your money on the discounted prices. A couple of years ago a friend had an account and in about 3-4 months I probably spent £1500, so got almost £3k worth of stuff. Bear in mind I was still in school at the time so wasn't working a great deal, but every penny I spent went on minis. 

And of all those minis I brought during that time, how many do I still own. . . none


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## Sloan13 (Feb 16, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> *Trust me* when I say that that road will leave you spending a lot more money in the long run.


Yeah running a business does cost a lot more in the long run, but running a gaming store would be easier than running an Ourdoor Power equipment/ Rental Store. You don't have the service side of things, or people tring to tell you somthing they rented didn't work when the bring it back 2 days late, just so they don't have to pay.

I was surprised that they sells between the UK and NA are so close. The only sell roughly 3 million more in the NA then in the UK. I would have throught NA sells would have been much higher.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> It's very easy to end up spending all your money on the discounted prices. A couple of years ago a friend had an account and in about 3-4 months I probably spent £1500, so got almost £3k worth of stuff. Bear in mind I was still in school at the time so wasn't working a great deal, but every penny I spent went on minis.
> 
> And of all those minis I brought during that time, how many do I still own. . . none


That's odd. I've been playing since 4th edition and the only models I've ever sold are some GK terminators, as I bought 1 box too many. 

In that time I've acquired 8 LRBTs, 3 Chimeras, 1 Basilisk, 8 Immolators, 1 Excorcist, 1 Valkyrie, 20 Kasrkin Storm troopers, around 40 guardsmen with several heavy weapons, around 100 metal Sisters of Battle, 50 or so Greyknights and a bunch of random henchmen and Imperial/Ecclesiarchal models... all that time, haven't lost or sold any of them. 

I don't understand the whole buy an army then trade/sell it in for the next new cool army down the road. My armies are really important to me and not going anywhere. You should see my collection of music equipment and 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 D&D books! :read:


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## Sloan13 (Feb 16, 2009)

Arcane said:


> I don't understand the whole buy an army then trade/sell it in for the next new cool army down the road. My armies are really important to me and not going anywhere. You should see my collection of music equipment and 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 D&D books! :read:


I agree the only thing that I have sold that was a hobby is my Magic the gather cards. Of coruse I sold those to start my Tau army.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

In the past I sold off armies I no longer used either to buy new armies or because I needed the money for bills. The last batch of selling I did was to pay for bills, but also because I don't play 40k anymore.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

This for the Australian Market only

GW used to publish the state of actual +-% of sales as well as gross profits.

Now they seemingly don't, i can tell you, that according to my contact in GW Australia, actual sales are down by 15% but due to the high cost of product that covers the falling sales and gives GW 200,000 British Pounds profit, this has been going on for three years now with actual sales down but price increases still covers the loss of sales. 

What i have been told is that will soon come to bite GW in the arse as no amount of price rises will augment dropping sales.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Svartmetall said:


> You do know that's our corporate anthem, right? And that we all sing it (in a rather nifty _a cappella_ arrangement) at every team briefing?


If that's the case, I want a job.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> This for the Australian Market only
> 
> GW used to publish the state of actual +-% of sales as well as gross profits.
> 
> ...


That's completely possible, but I've been reading this for a couple years now but not seeing it happen yet. If Australia bites them in the ass too hard in the long run their either finally drop prices there (basing them on actual exchange rates as of where they are now) or dropping the Oz completely.

I hope we don't see the latter of course.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> This for the Australian Market only
> 
> GW used to publish the state of actual +-% of sales as well as gross profits.
> 
> ...


What if the current prices are just a gimmick so that they can show a drastic increase in sales (and likely a small increase in profit) if/when they bring their prices back down?

I can already see tom kirby wringing his hands menacingly and saying to himself, "just as planned..."


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Zion said:


> I hope we don't see the latter of course.


I Wonder if this wouldn't actually be good for Oz customers as they might then be able to buy from UK retailers at a massive discount on their current Oz prices...


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

When was the last time something in Oz got cheaper ?

(hint: never)


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> This for the Australian Market only
> 
> GW used to publish the state of actual +-% of sales as well as gross profits.
> 
> ...


seems your contact is wrong, the report clearly shows that sales revenue for the last six months is up by £200k vs the same period last year, also in that period the business down under has gone from making a loss to making a profit,in the last six months GW Aus made 342k profit as opposed to the loss of 277k for the same period last year, this means that what ever anyone says in any forum, GW approach to the market down under for the last six months was the right one and they should expect it to continue the way it is so GW can recoup its losses in that region over the last few years.

on the whole its a great result and made even better when you consider the significant drop in licence revenue from THQ.

I suppose it also highlights the point that despite many out in forum land claiming to be unhappy with 6th or a codex or lack of attention to a certain army of choice, the majority of people still like what GW do and are willing to hand over cash to enjoy it.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

*Bits*: Achaylus72 was saying that sales volume, as in units shipped, not revenue, was down. His contact could well be right, though obviously we don't have official figures to base that on.

I would say a large amount of the change in the Australian market was due to A) 6th Ed B) transferring to single man stores and C) closing or moving to cheaper locations of a few stores over. It's good to hear they're doing well, though we'll have to wait to see if it's sustainable next year, without the 6th Ed bump and with the downgrading of some stores possibly reducing new customers. I think with the cost reductions, they're Australia operations will probably remain in the black, but probably not as profitable as this year.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Adramalech said:


> I can already see Tom Kirby wringing his hands menacingly and saying to himself, "just as planned..."


Nah. He's more the moustache-twirling type, with the occasional bout of sitting by the piranha tank saying 'exquisite' while stroking a white cat. He leaves the hand-wringing to his minions.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> Nah. He's more the moustache-twirling type, with the occasional bout of sitting by the piranha tank saying 'exquisite' while stroking a white cat. He leaves the hand-wringing to his minions.


Well, as one of the minions, I'm sure you'd know  plus I can certainly respect a well twirled mustache. 

But tell me, does he look like this when he announces new Australian prices?









"We will charge them.... One hundred TRILLION Dollars!"

:grin:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

maddermax said:


> *Bits*: Achaylus72 was saying that sales volume, as in units shipped, not revenue, was down. His contact could well be right, though obviously we don't have official figures to base that on.


sales volume? units shipped? totally meaningless, its revenue that matters.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> sales volume? units shipped? totally meaningless, its revenue that matters.


Surely it's not meaningless long term. If each year your number of units sold is consistently dropping, then there must come a point where having a small number of people buying more expensive items can't cover the cost and you start making a loss.

One thing I'd like to see implemented in GW stores and their online store is a feature that asks if you've been to a GW store before at checkout. That way we could see what percentage of sales comes from first time buyers. It wouldn't be exact of course, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing those results.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> Surely it's not meaningless long term. If each year your number of units sold is consistently dropping, then there must come a point where having a small number of people buying more expensive items can't cover the cost and you start making a loss.
> 
> One thing I'd like to see implemented in GW stores and their online store is a feature that asks if you've been to a GW store before at checkout. That way we could see what percentage of sales comes from first time buyers. It wouldn't be exact of course, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing those results.


Lower number of units sold means less costs, so you can sell less unit at a higher premium with lower cost per unit means more profit, shareholder and the board dont care about volume of sales as they are not a pile it high and sell it cheap company, also we shouldnt assume that GW are selling less units down under, sales are up in terms of revenue that could have just as easily come from selling more units or the same units at a higher price, either way the predictions that sales down under were bombing are wrong.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> sales volume? units shipped? totally meaningless, its revenue that matters.


-profanity-laden mumble- -facedesk-

For now maybe, but if sales volume continues to drop then the profits will eventually begin to drop as well, and no number of 13% price hikes will fix that glaring issue.

Production costs might continue to fall as well, but not as quickly as profits will if the current trend continues (the point at which sales volume falls below the ability to support production cost is what I'm calling "fiscal terminal velocity") People outgrow these things, fall on hard times and can't afford to waste their money, or just realize that there are much more important things on which to waste the obscene amount of wealth they would OTHERWISE waste on little plastic men.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> seems your contact is wrong, the report clearly shows that sales revenue for the last six months is up by £200k vs the same period last year, also in that period the business down under has gone from making a loss to making a profit,in the last six months GW Aus made 342k profit as opposed to the loss of 277k for the same period last year, this means that what ever anyone says in any forum, GW approach to the market down under for the last six months was the right one and they should expect it to continue the way it is so GW can recoup its losses in that region over the last few years.
> 
> on the whole its a great result and made even better when you consider the significant drop in licence revenue from THQ.
> 
> I suppose it also highlights the point that despite many out in forum land claiming to be unhappy with 6th or a codex or lack of attention to a certain army of choice, the majority of people still like what GW do and are willing to hand over cash to enjoy it.


 
No, my contact is not wrong.

look at it this way, in 2010/11 sales were down (as in units) by 11%, in 2011/12 sale were down (as in units) by 13%, again in 2012/13 their sales are down (as in units) by 15% in half yearly sales.

Overall GW store are reducing opening times, cutting back fulltime and casual staffing levels, shops are closing two in my local area alone in less than 6 months, even their large Battle Bunkers are reducing their opening days from 7 days a week 12 months ago to now 6 days a week and reducing hours.

GW Australia is in trouble.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> sales volume? units shipped? totally meaningless, its revenue that matters.


... and this is why you're a small time internet salesmen and not operating a large scale business. :laugh:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> No, my contact is not wrong.
> 
> look at it this way, in 2010/11 sales were down (as in units) by 11%, in 2011/12 sale were down (as in units) by 13%, again in 2012/13 their sales are down (as in units) by 15% in half yearly sales.
> 
> ...


but the changes to the business was what was needed to stop the rot down under, which is now clearly working down under, am i the only person looking at the figures for down under and seeing that they have increased revenue and not only stopped loosing money but started turning a profit as a good thing?
Is this just another case of people looking for anything that shows GW must be doing something wrong?
when your business is in the red you have to make changes or you go under.

Closing loss making stores= good thing
reducing opening hours to save on costs= good thing
reducing staff levels to the needs of the business =good thing
stop cheap imports from EU indie to the Aus customer base= good thing



personally i dont think GW down under is as in trouble as people on forums down under would like to think, I think this is more of a case that if people think that GW is in trouble then they think GW will at some point cave in and reduce prices in that region.

Personally i dont think that the number of units sold down under has reduced as much as some are quoting and without anything concrete from GW its just hearsay and speculation, where as the 6 monthly press release is the only factual figures that prove GW down under has significantly improved in the last 6 months.

But hey its up to you what you want to think or believe, personally im happy with the news that GW is staying nice and solid and showing a little steady growth, yes it impacts me directly (obviously) but we have lost 4 high street giants since christmas in the UK and one massive online retailer (play.com) has shut down its mail order portion.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Arcane said:


> ... and this is why you're a small time internet salesmen and not operating a large scale business. :laugh:


enjoy your holiday, see you soon:laugh:


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Here is an example of why GW Australia is in trouble.

As pointed out the last financial years their sales (per unit) have dropped by 11%, 13% and so far this year by 15%.

I had a fave local GW store at Hornsby, which sadly has closed.

Operational expenditure for the financial year 2011/12 and several months of the financial year 2012/13 was a total of 210,000 Australian Dollars (thats 139,700 British Pounds) now consider that total revenue for that store was 100,000 Australian Dollars, or 66,526 British Pounds) that make just one store losing 110,000 Australian Dollars in just over one financial year thats an operational loss of 73,180 British Pounds.

Massive sales drops killed off GW North Sydney NSW and Carindale QLD, and more are to close in the near future.


Also my fave Battle Bunker at Parramatta has 10 gaming tables, one painting table, one large display table, and three demonstration tables for Fantasy, 40k and LoTR. One normal saturday afternoon a year ago the place was packed with every table being played, they had 4 staff members and a full painting table with punter either painting or building models and product walking off the shelves. Well i went back two months agor to check it out and it was a saturday morning and i stayed all day and during the whole day only one table was being played, no-one was painting or bulding models, there was only one staff member and we had to shut for lunch. and for sales the place sold 12 White Dwarfs two Horus Heresy books and one box of Mordor Orcs and one box of Space Marine Tactical Squad.

It was like a ghost town, i was told it was getting worse, i was told Dark Vengeance was not selling, no-one was touching Chaos Space Marines, so i asked why and the bloke told me that Online sellers like Ebay are killing GW Australia. Now consider this GW has around 26 or so stores in Australia and it seems 4 times that in Indies selling their product so lets say a total 125 outlets divided by 200,000 British pounds thats not much of a profit per outlet.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Damn! GW must be magic or something because despite all the doom and gloom they still made a profit, how did that happen!??!?

/Sarcasm.

GW have made savings by cutting costs, they have closed stores, laid off staff and moved other stores to less expensive locations. This means that what was once a financial drain has now become profitable, their business approach in Oz is working.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Damn! GW must be magic or something because despite all the doom and gloom they still made a profit, how did that happen!??!?
> 
> /Sarcasm.
> 
> GW have made savings by cutting costs, they have closed stores, laid off staff and moved other stores to less expensive locations. This means that what was once a financial drain has now become profitable, their business approach in Oz is working.


Now we need is to have the Oz Government banning the sale of GW products off the World Wide Web so we can buy is overly expensive plastic crack at GW stores.

I still see folks just don't get it, no amount of restructure can save a business when folks aren't going into those stores to buy actual product.

I know, what it is like, i can't justify buying a Dark Vengeance box set at $185 when i can get it overseas for $100 including postage, i can't justify $83 for a Chaos Codex, when i got one from Britian for $50 including postage, i can't justify spending $14 on a box of Chaos Cultists when i got 100 from Singapore for about $80.

95% of my entire Games Workshop minature collection was bought off the internet and almost all of it overseas saving me 10's of thousands of dollars.

Sales are on a bad viscious circle, cost of product go up, sales go down, make a profit by upping prices/restructure, cost, sales go down.

Oh and by the way, GW Australia is an independently owned and incorporated Australian Company it pays a license to trade under Games Workshop Banner. If GW Australia goes under GW Britian/International is under no obligation to bail GW Australia.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

GW is downsizing and closing battle bunkers in the US also btw.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Well at least we know where GW and GW Oz can find a new CEO should they decide they want another one.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Now we need is to have the Oz Government banning the sale of GW products off the World Wide Web so we can buy is overly expensive plastic crack at GW stores.
> 
> I still see folks just don't get it, no amount of restructure can save a business when folks aren't going into those stores to buy actual product.
> 
> ...


But people must be going into those stores and buying product to some degree or they couldn't have made a profit. GW is doing similar things here in the UK, loads of shops are now one man shows, they don't bother to employ anyone else and they keep their costs down. GW probably over stretched itself in the Australian market, they opened too many stores, in the wrong places with too many staff. Now they are redressing that issue, they are closing/moving/reorganising their stores to keep them profitable. 

As an aside, baring in mind the maths done plenty of times by plenty of people saying that on a % of income and cost of living basis you're not actually paying much more than anywhere else in the world, why do Australians believe they are entitled to get the product cheaper than everyone else in the world? This shit storm only got started when GW decided to stop the likes of Wayland selling to Australia at a fraction of the comparable cost to anyone else. I'm all for exploiting loopholes, if you can get stuff cheap then by all means do it but don't complain when the loophole is closed and you have to pay the going rate. 

Whichever way you look at it, GW was making a loss, they are now making a profit, I would say that was a success in their eyes. The profit must be coming from somewhere, you can't make money out of nothing.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> But people must be going into those stores and buying product to some degree or they couldn't have made a profit. GW is doing similar things here in the UK, loads of shops are now one man shows, they don't bother to employ anyone else and they keep their costs down. GW probably over stretched itself in the Australian market, they opened too many stores, in the wrong places with too many staff. Now they are redressing that issue, they are closing/moving/reorganising their stores to keep them profitable.
> 
> As an aside, baring in mind the maths done plenty of times by plenty of people saying that on a % of income and cost of living basis you're not actually paying much more than anywhere else in the world, why do Australians believe they are entitled to get the product cheaper than everyone else in the world? This shit storm only got started when GW decided to stop the likes of Wayland selling to Australia at a fraction of the comparable cost to anyone else. I'm all for exploiting loopholes, if you can get stuff cheap then by all means do it but don't complain when the loophole is closed and you have to pay the going rate.
> 
> Whichever way you look at it, GW was making a loss, they are now making a profit, I would say that was a success in their eyes. The profit must be coming from somewhere, you can't make money out of nothing.


Well, if they cut costs then it's possible that their actual growth was marginal, non-existent, or that they were simply able to cut costs quickly enough to maintain the appearance of growth despite a falling overall income. (couldn't find a better term. sorry)

OR; some of us are freaking out over nothing and GW is actually doing quite well.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Adramalech said:


> Well, if they cut costs then it's possible that their actual growth was marginal, non-existent, or that they were simply able to cut costs quickly enough to maintain the appearance of growth despite a falling overall income. (couldn't find a better term. sorry)
> 
> OR; some of us are freaking out over nothing and GW is actually doing quite well.


And thus we come to the true question: is this a sustainable profit for GW? We won't know until the end of year report, and even then we may not have the true answer for a while longer.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Oh and by the way, GW Australia is an independently owned and incorporated Australian Company it pays a license to trade under Games Workshop Banner. If GW Australia goes under GW Britian/International is under no obligation to bail GW Australia.


Really? So what your saying is that "GW" down under is not part of the "GW company", so everything going on with prices has nothing to do with GW at all, so any complaints about GW down under have nothing to do with Games workshop ltd.

So who owns GW down under then?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

And we have achieved another level of tin foil hat conspiracy!! Two more levels and we all get the complimentary Illuminati brainwash package.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

scscofield said:


> And we have achieved another level of tin foil hat conspiracy!! Two more levels and we all get the complimentary Illuminati brainwash package.


you know im David Icke right? or am i the lizard people, anyway i loves a good conspiracy !


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Zion said:


> And thus we come to the true question: is this a sustainable profit for GW? We won't know until the end of year report, and even then we may not have the true answer for a while longer.


That's exactly on the dot... The long term will be telling if GW has managed a sort-term profit by compensating loss of sales by higher prices and lower costs (which can lead to a downward spiral). Or, on the other hand, has GW Australia just improved it's overall management...

Phil


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I thought i share with you a cold hard fact on the state of affairs in Australia, and how much trouble we are in.

In December 2011 we had.

32 Games Workshop Bricks and Mortar Stores.
134 Independent Stockists

166 Total outlets to buy Games Workshop products

Now in January 2013 just 13 months later we have.

33 Games Workshop Bricks and Mortar Stores.
69 Independent Stockists.

In my area alone 3 out of the 4 Independent Stockists have gotten out of Games Workshop Products, directly due to lack of sales.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

That really shows nothing in terms of how GW is doing.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The Internet has hit general hobby shops REALLY hard. 
12 months ago there were 5 hobby shops in my town, today there are none.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The Internet has hit general hobby shops REALLY hard.
> 12 months ago there were 5 hobby shops in my town, today there are none.


I can see it doing more damage in Australia than anywhere else due to how much it costs for you to get stuff there. On the flip side you can get it cheaper online....

Yeah, I can't blame the local stores for folding. GW Stores can at least get backed by the company to get them by when things look bad.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> That really shows nothing in terms of how GW is doing.


No, then explain why the only remaining independent stockist in my immediate area has to rely on 

Magic: The Gathering
Yu-Gi-Ho
Pokemon

To survive, those Collectable Card Games heavily subsidise the lack of Games Workshop sales, hell even Warmachine and Hordes have reached sales higher than Games Workshop.

This place has had Games Workshop gear sitting on the shelf in some instance for over 6 months, especially LoTR.

Oh and to finish off, if you think my area which you know nothing of, in just over 3 years has gone from 5 gaming leagues to just 1, explain that?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The Internet has hit general hobby shops REALLY hard.
> 12 months ago there were 5 hobby shops in my town, today there are none.


Exactly, GW and the Indies can't compete against the plethora of cheap alternatives on the internet.

Like three examples

Dark Vengeance Limited Edition $100.00AuD including delivery from Britiain
Chaos Codex, $50.00AuD including delivery from Britain
100 x Chaos Cultists, $80.00AuD with free delivery from Singapore

Now Games Workshop is sellin 5 x Chaos Cultist box set for $14.00AuD that would have set me back $280.00AuD, i saved $200.00AuD.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Yep. I buy nearly ALL my stuff from the US except for the paint and the books.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> No, then explain why the only remaining independent stockist in my immediate area has to rely on
> 
> Magic: The Gathering
> Yu-Gi-Ho
> ...


It means that your local area isn't GW-centric or you've found cheaper deals online resulting in the closing of the stores due to a low take-in locally rather than a multi-national corporation doing poorly. 

Causation: you're doing it wrong.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeh miniatures/wargaming has always been very up and down in Oz, even in the big cities.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Magic and what not is how pretty much every independent store I have been to in the last 15 years survives. None of them make enough to stay open based off of GW sales alone. Yet GW has been around for all that time and before.........


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Zion said:


> It means that your local area isn't GW-centric or you've found cheaper deals online resulting in the closing of the stores due to a low take-in locally rather than a multi-national corporation doing poorly.
> 
> Causation: you're doing it wrong.


I understand what you are saying.

However, i'll use an annology for you, you have an opportunity to purchase a Chevy Camaro at $15.000 at one car dealership, but across the road there is an identicle car of the same condition for $9.000, are you saying that you as a consumer you aren't going to cross the road and save 6 grand.

In my case, i would never be able to be in this hobby if i had to purchase from Australian stores, it is just to bloody expensive.

But with the help of the internet i can be in this hobby.

My point is that why should i purchase say a box set of Chaos Space Marines, Terminators for $72.00AuD (47.50 British Pounds or $75.05USD) and that is not taking into the added cost of public transport to get to these shops to pay these expensive prices. when as i said i can go onto the internet and get the same box from the US and with delivery for less than $35.00AuD saving myself more than 50%.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

For every person like you there is someone clueless of that or uncaring of those price facts that will walk into a store and buy half a army.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> I understand what you are saying.
> 
> However, i'll use an annology for you, you have an opportunity to purchase a Chevy Camaro at $15.000 at one car dealership, but across the road there is an identicle car of the same condition for $9.000, are you saying that you as a consumer you aren't going to cross the road and save 6 grand.
> 
> ...


You haven't said a single thing here that disputes my point: just because your FLGS isn't selling GW stuff very well it doesn't mean the company is doing that badly.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Zion said:


> You haven't said a single thing here that disputes my point: just because your FLGS isn't selling GW stuff very well it doesn't mean the company is doing that badly.


So as a company like GW you would not be worried that you have gone from 133 independent Stockists selling your product to just 69 Independent Stockists selling your stuff.

You have no worries about a 50% decrease of outlets selling your product.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Considering the world economy they are probably breathing a sigh of relief. They are still turning profit and they are doing it on half the stores. Fuck their stockholders probably having raging hard ons. Your rant is the stuff that stockholders dream of, less overhead while still turning profit.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Considering the world economy they are probably breathing a sigh of relief. They are still turning profit and they are doing it on half the stores. Fuck their stockholders probably having raging hard ons. Your rant is the stuff that stockholders dream of, less overhead while still turning profit.


A false profit at that.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

how exactly is it a false profit? 

A profit is a profit which ever way you slice it.

Unless you mean Prophet ? In which case you're correct Scscofield has been spreading the words of the False Gods for years.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Nothing false about it. Product you see in independent stores is already paid for. GW sells it to them, what they do to it after that does not change GW profits. Those stores closing added nothing to GW they did not pay wages, rent, or any other overhead cost. So they lost some customers in regards to the store owners buying their product, but still turned a profit.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> So as a company like GW you would not be worried that you have gone from 133 independent Stockists selling your product to just 69 Independent Stockists selling your stuff.
> 
> You have no worries about a 50% decrease of outlets selling your product.


1. Red Text is for Mods, and you are no mod. 
2. I can read just fine, but as previously established, you yourself are buying for cheaper elsewhere, so GW is still getting their money even if actions by you (and people who make the same choice) are killing your local stores.
3. An _independent_ store that doesn't do well and has to fold is not the same as _GW_ not doing well. You're showing a lack of understanding on how things like this actually work. You're still buying from GW, it doesn't matter to them where you buy from, as long as you do. To GW it doesn't matter how many independents still stock their stuff since they still have a web store, and brick and mortar stores that get their product out there.



Achaylus72 said:


> A false profit at that.


Not nearly as "false" as you think. Every price raise, as annoying to use as it is, serves a purpose: to help cover the ever increasing costs of the company as they have to continue to pay more for everything (that "free shipping" isn't that free). Add in the fat trimming they did and the company is now leaner, stronger, and better poised to come out of the recession on top. 

GW has hidden nothing from us. They spend a LOT in upkeep on the company. This covers leases, bills, new products, old products, new molds, employee benefits, pay checks, overtime, sick days, packing materials, raw materials, ink, employee supplies, and so on. GW isn't a Mom and Pop joint down the street, they're a big company with a lot going on, and to be able to stay in the black prices had to go up. This is the sad fact we have to accept, companies can't operate in the red and if we want to still have a GW ten or even twenty years from now we'll have to accept these prices. 

And all of this isn't a "false profit". The money is quite real, and will continue to be real. Just because your FLGS fails doesn't mean GW will, because it's not propped up by 1 or even 2 stores, but thousands all over the world, and a web store and even Forge World (who is doing so well they are expanding their team to keep up with demand!).


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

What I find funny is his argument supports GW doing well in Oz. They added another GW store and are showing profit. Independent stores closing doesn't hurt them all that much if at all. Everything in those independent stores GW related was already paid for. If the product sat on the shelf and rotted that was the problem if that store owner not GW.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> What I find funny is his argument supports GW doing well in Oz. They added another GW store and are showing profit. Independent stores closing doesn't hurt them all that much if at all. Everything in those independent stores GW related was already paid for. If the product sat on the shelf and rotted that was the problem if that store owner not GW.


Yes, they opened a new store, but closed the Hornsby store, my store and closed the North Sydney store, many stores are reducing opening hours, some will no longer trade on Sunday, Monday and Tuesdays, closing earlier on the busy Thursday late night shopping nights, they are sacking staff left, right and centre, converting many stores to one man operations, with no back-up incase of sickness, meaning that if the guy running the store gets sick the store stays shut.

Oh and what i have been told, that GW Australia is looking at restructuring all their stores within the next 5 years into a walk in and walk out only stores, gone are the painting tables, gone are the gaming tables, they'll only have one demo table and thats it, because they GW Australia are cutting back, they are losing 10's of thousands of dollars on the supply of the free acess to paint, brushes, glues, basing. Gaming tables are costing overal to thousands of wasted rental space per annum. Remember GW management is only answerable to Shareholders not to paying customers, if GW will cut to the bone, scrape out the marrow and pound the bone to paste to cut costs they will.

But

Thank you for your glorious insight to the Australian Market, from now on if i want to get expert opinion on the Australian Market, i wont talk to my fellow Aussie GW collectors and gamers, i wont need to visit the local Aussie GW Stores to talk to Staff and get a first hand knowledge by observing whats going on, and i certainly don't need to contact my contact within GW Management on what the doss.

No, i don't need to do that, i just need to get all the news from an American who knows more about the Australian scene than an Australian.

Oh i hafta ask, when was the last time you actually stepped foot inside an Australian store?

At least if i want to know about the US scene i'll ask an American


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> Yes, they opened a new store, but closed the Hornsby store, my store and closed the North Sydney store, many stores are reducing opening hours, some will no longer trade on Sunday, Monday and Tuesdays, closing earlier on the busy Thursday late night shopping nights, they are sacking staff left, right and centre, converting many stores to one man operations, with no back-up incase of sickness, meaning that if the guy running the store gets sick the store stays shut.


This is part of GW's lowering of the retail costs (reducing the number of employees on hand all the time, moving to lower rent buildings, ect), and Australia had a net gain of one store which means that while some stores closed, they opened enough to have an additional store on top of it, so the country didn't lose stores as much as shuffled them about.



Achaylus72 said:


> Oh and what i have been told, that GW Australia is looking at restructuring all their stores within the next 5 years into a walk in and walk out only stores, gone are the painting tables, gone are the gaming tables, they'll only have one demo table and thats it, because they GW Australia are cutting back, they are losing 10's of thousands of dollars on the supply of the free acess to paint, brushes, glues, basing. Gaming tables are costing overal to thousands of wasted rental space per annum. Remember GW management is only answerable to Shareholders not to paying customers, if GW will cut to the bone, scrape out the marrow and pound the bone to paste to cut costs they will.


Welcome to where GW has to go to stay competitive in today's shitty economy. This streamlining is actually freeing up revenue for the company though so that money means less store closures overall (since they're cheaper), and more money for the company to work with on a day to day basis.



Achaylus72 said:


> But
> 
> Thank you for your glorious insight to the Australian Market, from now on if i want to get expert opinion on the Australian Market, i wont talk to my fellow Aussie GW collectors and gamers, i wont need to visit the local Aussie GW Stores to talk to Staff and get a first hand knowledge by observing whats going on, and i certainly don't need to contact my contact within GW Management on what the doss.


Whoa there, cut the attitude there. You're the one who came in wielding torch and pitchfork, there is no call to start flying off the handle at us for not automatically joining the hundreds of other angry nerds on the internet and looking at GW from a less biased (and yes, it's still biased, but less so than the folks who assume EVERYTHING GW does is to screw the customer) point of view.



Achaylus72 said:


> No, i don't need to do that, i just need to get all the news from an American who knows more about the Australian scene than an Australian.
> 
> Oh i hafta ask, when was the last time you actually stepped foot inside an Australian store?


When's the last time you read the forum rules regarding the Golden Rule?



Achaylus72 said:


> At least if i want to know about the US scene i'll ask an American


Again, chill. This is a place for civil discussion. Angry posts go on Dakka, whiny ones on Warseer, reasonable ones here.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Since GW is doing what you ranted about worldwide I have no need to set foot in Oz.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Zion said:


> This is part of GW's lowering of the retail costs (reducing the number of employees on hand all the time, moving to lower rent buildings, ect), and Australia had a net gain of one store which means that while some stores closed, they opened enough to have an additional store on top of it, so the country didn't lose stores as much as shuffled them about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok i have taken my chill pill and i'll back down.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The stores you said closed near you, were they GW only stores or independent stores.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I would say most of them would be independents, they seem to be the ones going to the wall.Our games store that has been around for at least 13 years was mainly devoted to 40k and it has now closed. It was the only shop that carried this sort of thing for about 3-400 miles in any direction. A new independent has opened but they only have 3-5 boxed sets of anything gw in stock, loads of warmachine, flames of war, infinity etc, but very little gw. 

And Zion, dont be too hard on Achaylus72, we have been getting reamed for a very long time, and it is very easy to get bitter and twisted when gw posts a profit and we still get reamed, only the reamer is bigger.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Zion said:


> And thus we come to the true question: is this a sustainable profit for GW? We won't know until the end of year report, and even then we may not have the true answer for a while longer.


This is true. For all my ranting about GW, I'm really just buttmad about Matt Ward writing sixth.  (contrary to popular belief, our spiritual liege actually did away with the other authors silently and then proceeded to write the entire rulebook himself)


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Meh now your just posting garbage.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> The stores you said closed near you, were they GW only stores or independent stores.


2 GW stores closed
15 independent stockists cancelled their contracts.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So according to your earlier post GW ended up with one more store than before. This means they closed two in your area but opened three elsewhere. They also reported a profit, doesn't sound like they are hurting that much to me. Sounds like they are shifting to more profitable market areas and store models.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> So according to your earlier post GW ended up with one more store than before. This means they closed two in your area but opened three elsewhere. They also reported a profit, doesn't sound like they are hurting that much to me. Sounds like they are shifting to more profitable market areas and store models.


That was my interpretation of it all too.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> So according to your earlier post GW ended up with one more store than before. This means they closed two in your area but opened three elsewhere. They also reported a profit, doesn't sound like they are hurting that much to me. Sounds like they are shifting to more profitable market areas and store models.


And that is why you have no idea about the Australian Market.

Also you have repeatedly and deliberately ignored one of the issues i have constantly raised is that the massive annual retraction of unit sales.

2010/11 Financial Year unit sales dropped by 11%
2011/12 Financial Year unit sales dropped by 13%
2012/13 Financial Year unit sales retraction to be at or near 20%

Also you deliberately ignored the fact in my area 15 Independent Stockists have cancelled their contracts with GW.

So yeah, GW made 200,000 pounds in profit, but an unstainable profit.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Independents mean jack shit, and I have stated this in various ways multiple times. As to financial projections and what not, those are not GW only declines. The world economic situation during those time frames took a dump.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Independents mean jack shit, and I have stated this in various ways multiple times. As to financial projections and what not, those are not GW only declines. The world economic situation during those time frames took a dump.


If Independents are Jack Shit as you say then why does GW deal throught Independent Stockist.

Why doesn't GW just decide to cut out all Independents, according to you these businesses are Jack Shit to GW's bottom line.

Easy Peasy.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

That's the point I am making. GW treats the indies like absolute garbage. They are contract customers and really are just bonus money to GW. They come and go constantly and nothing about them will change how GW operates.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> If Independents are Jack Shit as you say then why does GW deal throught Independent Stockist.
> 
> Why doesn't GW just decide to cut out all Independents, according to you these businesses are Jack Shit to GW's bottom line.
> 
> Easy Peasy.


they cant, GW would end up investigated for anti competitive practices, its also the reason why the role play arm of warhammer and 40k are farmed out and have been since the 90s, as has been mentioned before GW are an anomaly business, it is very very rare for a company to design,manufacture and retail almost everything and considering its market share it would get stung for having a monopoly if it cut out indies,its also the reason FW and Black Libary are run as separate businesses.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> And that is why you have no idea about the Australian Market.
> 
> Also you have repeatedly and deliberately ignored one of the issues i have constantly raised is that the massive annual retraction of unit sales.
> 
> ...


you keep going on about unit sales, can you give us some actual evidence of sales numbers for these periods? and who are the 15 indies?


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Meh. Now you're just posting garbage.


fixed.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> they cant, GW would end up investigated for anti competitive practices, its also the reason why the role play arm of warhammer and 40k are farmed out and have been since the 90s, as has been mentioned before GW are an anomaly business, it is very very rare for a company to design,manufacture and retail almost everything and considering its market share it would get stung for having a monopoly if it cut out indies,its also the reason FW and Black Libary are run as separate businesses.


Now i have heard just about everything.

Are you seriously saying that it is illegal for GW to not renew sales contracts of Independent Stockists when their contracts run out.

Can you direct me to the relevent Act of Parliament (incert Year of Act) that would make it illegal in so far as that GW would be in violation of that Act if GW decides to Renew Contracts of Independent Stockists after their Supply Contracts run out.

Also can you direct me to the relevent Act of Parliament (incert Year of Act), that it is illegal for a company like GW to revert to an all inhouse Business. So what you are saying is that GW would be forced by an Act of Parliament to make its product accesable to Independent Stockist, what a great place to do business in Great Britian.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> you keep going on about unit sales, can you give us some actual evidence of sales numbers for these periods? and who are the 15 indies?


As long as you supply me all the names of all the Independent Stockists that no longer sell GW product in Europe.

In fact once you do that i'll list every single one of the 64 Independent Stockist that stopped selling GW product in Australia in the last 12 months, hell i'll add New Zealand as well, just for laughs.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

He said they can't do away with Independents completely like you suggested. Not because it is illegal to restock, but because if they did as you suggested and rid them selves of all Independents they could have legal issues due to monopoly laws.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

There's nothing illegal about having a monoploy. 
It's what you do with that monopoly that is regulated in some cases.

Removing people who stock your products isn't engendering a monopoly tho', if anything it is lessening your monopolisation of the market by reducing your outlets.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Didn't say I agreed with bits, just was translating since there seemed to be confusion. There is enough outrage and whatnot already in this thread.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Now i have heard just about everything.
> 
> Are you seriously saying that it is illegal for GW to not renew sales contracts of Independent Stockists when their contracts run out.
> 
> ...


well there would be no point as contracts have no time basis, GW supply indies for as long as the indies want supply and dont break the terms of the trade agreement with GW, and yes GW are forced to sell to indies under the competition act 1980 which deals with companies with more than 10 million turn over and over 25 % of market share, they are required to spread the love.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> As long as you supply me all the names of all the Independent Stockists that no longer sell GW product in Europe.
> 
> In fact once you do that i'll list every single one of the 64 Independent Stockist that stopped selling GW product in Australia in the last 12 months, hell i'll add New Zealand as well, just for laughs.


Your the one who keeps claiming GW has dropped unit sales down under and that stockists down under are dropping the range, well prove it? you see your here again with 64 stockists, are you doing a study? where is your info coming from, if you can claim exactly 64 stockists have dropped the range then name them, infact name 10 of the 64. 

and by the way all indies in europe all still stock GW and more are joining every month, sales are booming in europe. 

If your right and its all going to shit down under then back it up with some proof, otherwise all we can say with any certainty is that on the figures presented by the only source that matters is that GW down under sold more shit in the last six months than it did in the same period last year and the turned a loss making business into a (yet to be establish if its sustainable) profit making business.

Also i expect many of the indies dropped the GW range down under because they couldnt compete with wayland games and there deep discounts before the embargo came into effect.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

please for the love of, well me to be frank, close this thread


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> well there would be no point as contracts have no time basis, GW supply indies for as long as the indies want supply and dont break the terms of the trade agreement with GW, and yes GW are forced to sell to indies under the competition act 1980 which deals with companies with more than 10 million turn over and over 25 % of market share, they are required to spread the love.


Explain then why 2 of my former local indies had to renegotiate their terms of agreement of their contracts every 12 months to sell GW product.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> Explain then why 2 of my former local indies had to renegotiate their terms of agreement of their contracts every 12 months to sell GW product.


Probably for the same reasons that the tenants in my rental property have to re-sign their lease every 12 months, so that BOTH sides can choose to adjust/end the agreement on a regular basis.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

*Calling your bluff.*



bitsandkits said:


> Your the one who keeps claiming GW has dropped unit sales down under and that stockists down under are dropping the range, well prove it? you see your here again with 64 stockists, are you doing a study? where is your info coming from, if you can claim exactly 64 stockists have dropped the range then name them, infact name 10 of the 64.
> 
> and by the way all indies in europe all still stock GW and more are joining every month, sales are booming in europe.
> 
> ...


OK sport, i'll put down that list of every independent stockist that stopped selling GW product in Australia, and if any in New Zealand has gone, i'll add them as well, happy?.

Also you asked how i know about these store, well White Dwarf is a starter, you may not be aware that White Dwarf list not only their own stores, but independent stockists as well, pick one up and have a gander, you'll be surprised.

No kidding, fancy us Aussies having the all the gall deciding to get cheap stuff off the internet, and you know what i am talking about.

Dark Vengeance Australian is $185.00AuD

A certain internet operator in Britian sold me a Dark Vengeance for Approx $100.00AuD, are you saying that i should not have dealt with this individual to get cheap stuff, afterall he actually came to me first and offered his services, and now it seems it is being thrown back into my face, strange way to treat a good customer.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

EDIT: Never mind. Reported the thread for being off topic and being too much of a hot-button topic. People can't play nice so I'm asking for a lock.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Probably for the same reasons that the tenants in my rental property have to re-sign their lease every 12 months, so that BOTH sides can choose to adjust/end the agreement on a regular basis.


Exactly, as you say this makes damn sure each party knows where they stand.

But if you read what BK said, then it is like once you sign a contract that's it set in stone until hell freezes over.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Zion said:


> Explain why you're attacking Bits for everything he says, not offering any solid evidence for what you're saying and generally acting like a bit of a tosser.
> 
> Seriously, play nice before Mods come in here and start smacking us all about with their hammers.


Because he started it, i thought this was a place where everyone had an opinion, and was allowed to share information that has been told to me by those within GW Australia and seeing it personally for myself, and to explain why sales of units have been dropping, but oh no, what happened i get reamed by three foreigners that stoicly believe thet know more about the Australian scene more than what i have seen and have been told about my own backyard.

But everytime i put up any information to back up what i know and have seen, BK insinuates i am a liar without actually calling me one, but her is the absolute kicker to this, i will never be that arrogant to delude myself that i know more about the British scene than a Brit.

Oh and by the way, that certain internet operator who came to me first and offered to sell me cheaper stuff that i can get it in Australia was none other that Bits and Kits himself, yeah that Dark Vengeance Limited Box Set cost me Approx $100AuD saving me $85.00AuD, but i didn't hear BK complaining then, but now i am the enemy, go figure.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> Exactly, as you say this makes damn sure each party knows where they stand.
> 
> But if you read what BK said, then it is like once you sign a contract that's it set in stone until hell freezes over.


It is, or at least until the contract runs out.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> It is, or at least until the contract runs out.


Again, that is up to both parties as to how long a contract lasts for, it could last 12 months, with either party having the option for a 12 month extension (using 12 months as an example).

So however long the contract last, there will be times during that contract that GW will need to update that contract, that is nothing new, that's sound business.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> Because he started it, i thought this was a place where everyone had an opinion, and was allowed to share information that has been told to me by those within GW Australia and seeing it personally for myself, and to explain why sales of units have been dropping, but oh no, what happened i get reamed by three foreigners that stoicly believe thet know more about the Australian scene more than what i have seen and have been told about my own backyard.


Okay, I'm going to break this into points to keep from rambling on:

1. Yes everyone has an opinion on here, but it doesn't meant everyone's is right. It doesn't mean we need to persistently attack people for sharing theirs when we don't agree.

2. 2 Foreigners and an Aussie disagreed you based on what we saw. I know, I was one of them. We see GW doing just fine and the general point that was trying to be made was that GW is doing a lot better than you were giving them credit for. And no, I wasn't trying to ream you. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I'm trying to ream you I'd be making massive posts breaking down every point you make and then refuting them. If you don't believe me, ask around, I can and will do it if I feel that someone really is off the mark and needs to be called on it.

3. We asked for more information several times to get a better understanding of what you saw and got nothing for it but angry posts attacking us. If you want to play ball you need to be willing to back up your statements with more than loose statements that don't actually provide real data for people to go off of. Try to not take this personally, but this is the internet, and I don't take much of what I read as "true" unless I can back it up with multiple sources. That goes double for people's "proof" when it comes to GW.



Achaylus72 said:


> But everytime i put up any information to back up what i know and have seen, BK insinuates i am a liar without actually calling me one, but her is the absolute kicker to this, i will never be that arrogant to delude myself that i know more about the British scene than a Brit.


Or you're reading too far into it because Bits is looking for more information than what you're giving and he doesn't buy in on what you're saying on face value alone. You have to realize how MUCH anti-GW we see all over the internet, so when people start saying that GW is going to fail most of us need more than a person's word on it and a statement that a few stores that aren't named closed. So far you've provided a lot of anedoctal evidence and honestly that's not worth much. I can talk all day about how the FLGS in my area is doing so well with GW that he was looking at expanding his building but ended up deciding to just get a bigger store instead (that's right, he's buying a bigger building!), but it doesn't mean GW is doing GREAT, it just means HE is doing great.

Personal stories and experiences don't translate to the big picture and don't provide the kind of information people really need to form a better image of what's happening.



Achaylus72 said:


> Oh and by the way, that certain internet operator who came to me first and offered to sell me cheaper stuff that i can get it in Australia was none other that Bits and Kits himself, yeah that Dark Vengeance Limited Box Set cost me Approx $100AuD saving me $85.00AuD, but i didn't hear BK complaining then, but now i am the enemy, go figure.


Take your personal vendettas elsewhere. You were happy to save some money by buying from him, but now you want to pitch a fit because he doesn't agree with you? Too bad. Just because you bought something from him doesn't mean he's required to agree with you. 

And now that we're no longer talking about GW's half-year report, I'm calling this thread off topic because it has nothing to do with GW any more and everything to do with people getting too damn worked up about their opinions.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Nah it's still on topic, most of us are pointing out that it says GW is doing well despite the economy. A few are ranting that the report is false because their local scene is being hit be economic issues. Nevermind the fact that GW is doing well despite this.....


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

*Stupid is stupid does*

Well ain't i the great idiot, i have been going on about how GW is in trouble and that GW Store are closing and Independent Stockists are leaving in droves.

Well i picked up my latest edition of White Dwarf and feelin cock sure of myself i went to the Store Finder section to see how many GW Stores have closed and how many more Independent Stockists have walked away from selling GW products.

Well, White Dwarf showed me that i have been a moron of the highest order.


In the last month (January) this is exactly what has happened in the state of Australia.

GW Stores = *36* meaning that GW have openend 3 more stores. Adding the GW North Sydney Store which did not close.
Independent Stockists = *80* meaning an increas of 11 new Independent Stockists.

Also i have been told that The Hobbit is selling like hot cakes, and general sales have also increased.

I appologise for my rampant stupidiness.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

We are all passionate about this hobby, there is nothing to apologize for. Just glad GW is doing better than you believed before


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Not trying to rub salt in the wound Achaylus72, but this is the exact kind of reason why I advocate people do research before claiming GW is doing poorly, or is moustache twirling. It saves face, and if you're right then you have hard evidence to back it up.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> I appologise for my rampant stupidiness.


Mate you are an awesome dude !
I'm here to tell ya I'd have not have had the balls to say what you just did.
Rep for the Rep God !

I hope to see more of your passionate debate in the future !


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well ain't i the great idiot, i have been going on about how GW is in trouble and that GW Store are closing and Independent Stockists are leaving in droves.
> 
> Well i picked up my latest edition of White Dwarf and feelin cock sure of myself i went to the Store Finder section to see how many GW Stores have closed and how many more Independent Stockists have walked away from selling GW products.
> 
> ...


the fact you can see and admit you were wrong means you are not rampantly stupid, someone rampantly stupid would ignore the facts you found and carry on with there argument.

I have to admit i find it pretty easy to defend GW most of the time because i have to, If i didnt believe in what they do, how could i ever do what i do?, after all i take there very pricey kits and dived them up and sell them for even more money, i hear people all the time saying "i wont pay £10 for a character model" but they are perfectly happy paying £5 for a missile launcher for there long fangs, similarly people bleet on about GW prices while ignoring companies like PP producing colossals for just less than £100 which is almost triple the price of some of the warhammer 40k kits,plus the colossals as far as i know are not plastic,not dual kits and dont come with optional extras and are not supporting a international store system, also looks like PP dont give as large a discount to its UK distributors as they are much less discounted than GW, so whos getting ripped off? GW players or PP players? Well both or neither,or one or the other, thats up to the customer to decide.
Personally im not a fan of what has gone on in the store system, i dont like the idea of one man stores, i dont like the idea that people can no longer go and play or paint, but then again i dont like the idea that they used the stores as gaming clubs or a crèche , I think the hobby should be enjoyed with friends at home and at clubs, clubs also give people the chance to see other systems in action and try other things, which i think is good for the hobby in the long term, i think time away from GW and its products is a good thing, yes im a dyed in the wool GW fan, but players need to take a break and explore other things because its a hobby, Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyed and a break from the humdrum of real life, if your hobby (or GW) are stressing you out then its no longer a hobby, taking a break from GW games for a few years either playing other systems or enjoying another hobby really does reignite your passion for 40k/fantasy/insert other GW game, in my youth i played battle tech,magic,star fleet battles,15mm ancients and loads of non core GW games. 

we hear alot of people rage quitting GW because of various factors online, quite often i find many people are simply looking for the door but the recent "what ever GW have done to upset the masses" is used as the reason for there departure and they get to be vocal about it on forums and face book and such, not to say some people dont have good reason, If i were a sisters player i would have quit the game a long time ago, but the forums are not the true voice of the GW gamer, far from it, out of the players i know personally i am the only person from a group of 20 people who has an active forum account, thats 5% of the gamers i know personally, some of them read about new releases as lurkers, but most are happy to either read a copy of WD or pop into a store on a monthly basis or use GWs website to keep them in the know, the rest of the time they spend building,painting and gaming and reading and enjoying the hobby.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> I appologise.


it happens to us all


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