# Primarch Bodyguards



## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

The title pretty much shows the manner of the topic. I have not found anything of the likes of this before, so I decided too put together a list of the Primarch Bodyguards and their members/leaders Pre-Heresy if possible. This is what I have so far (If more people post, I shall edit in the names.)-

Lion El'Jonson- Deathwing? 

Fulgrim- Phoenix Guard. (Possibly Julius Kaesoron, if memory serves right he often accompanies Fulgrim and the Phoenix Guard.)

Iron Warriors- Unknown. 

White Scars- Unknown. 

Space Wolves- Wolf Guard. (Including Bjorn Fell-Handed)

Imperial Fists- Huscarls. (I believe their leader is named Archemus in Tales of Heresy, but I do not have mine present, can anyone confirm this?)

Night Lords- Unknown to my knowledge, perhaps it is in the Black Library Audio-Book or the two Night Lord novels?

Blood Angels- The Sanguinary Host. (Chapter Master Raldoron is a member, leader possibly. I did wonder, as he is in the first Horus Heresy novel. Thanks too Ferrus Manus!)

Iron Hands- Morlocks. (Gabriel Santar is the leader of these if im right, and also the First Company Captain)

World Eaters- If memory serves me correctly, the name of the Bodyguards of Angron is the Devourer's (Something I have adopted in my Great Crusade Era Fiction) However I cannot remember the source of this, if anyone can confirm this that would be great.

Ultramarines- Sentinals of Calth (Actually placed as Guilliman's Veterans, but I believe these too be his Bodyguard too if the Marine in the centre of these pair shown is Guilliman, it should be noted both others have the same eagle-masks of Calgar's Honour Guard)

Death Guard- Deathshroud (A pair of "faceless" Marines who were believed dead)

Thousand Sons- The Scarab Occult (Once again, placed as Veterans however each has seemingly plucked away one eye. I have not read _A Thousand Sons_ yet but if anyone has any other information on these, or a different Bodyguard (I did not believe it to be the Rehahti due to it being place as Magnus's Coven) Please do post. 

Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus- Mournival/Justaerin Terminators. (Ezekyle Abbadon, "Little" Horus Aximand, Tarik Torgaddon and Gaviel Loken are the Mournival, im not actually sure if the Justaerin are also Bodyguards, but they are Abaddon's Squad)

Word Bearers- The Gal Vorrak/Argel Tal (The Gal Vorrak are the veterans of Lorgar, but I assume that also means his Bodyguard. Argel Tal is pictured on the same page, directly below them). 

Salamanders- Fire Drakes. (No known characters too my knowledge)

Raven Guard- Unknown. 

Alpha Legion- Unknown, though I believe it too be the elite Effrit Stealth Squad which Omegon commands. 

That is all I have thus far, if anyone can fill me in one the Legions I have not been able to find anything for, and confirm/dis-confirm those I have. Most of these are sourced from _The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_ and the rest of the _Horus Heresy Series_. If anybody wants page referances I can give them tomorow, but I am too tired to do so tonight.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They're not really there to protect the Primarch, seeing as how they don't need the protection, but in my opinion just to illustrate the power of the Primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Body guards aren’t there just to look pretty. They serve a purpose. Even if they are the most powerful warriors in all of the imperium they still are vulnerable to a little thing I like to call the lucky SOB. No one can watch their own back so that’s where to elite bodyguard come in.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Body guards aren’t there just to look pretty. They serve a purpose. Even if they are the most powerful warriors in all of the imperium they still are vulnerable to a little thing I like to call the lucky SOB. No one can watch their own back so that’s where to elite bodyguard come in.


Anything capable of hurting a Primarch would cut through his bodyguards like they were made out of paper.

"Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim's face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a primarch"

If a Primarch's body dosen't even register an attack that can crush the helmet of Drednought Armor, then pretty much nothing can hurt them unless it's like some huge novacannon but in any case, a Primarch's keen senses would pick up the potential threat and deal with it before it came to that.

Ferrus Manus's terminator-clad bodyguards got their heads chopped off by Fulgrim's warriors without even knowing what hit them.

During the battle with the Eldar Avatar fighting with Fulgrim, the Eldar Wraithlord cut through Fulgrim's elite bodyguards like they were toys whereas Fulgrim destroyed it in a few punches.

And in the lifespans of the Primarchs, not a single one to my knowledge got assassinated or even got close to getting assassinated.

They are a badge of prestige and honor, nothing more.

The Emperor's Custodes on the other hand are a whole different story.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes but I wonder if a primarch could withstand a bolter round to the back of the head, or maybe a power sword stab to the back? You seem to have misunderstood what I was talking about when I said the lucky SOB. I didn't mean another primarch or some other great opponent I meant the lone assassin or insignificant soldier with a large weapon.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes but I wonder if a primarch could withstand a bolter round to the back of the head, or maybe a power sword stab to the back? You seem to have misunderstood what I was talking about when I said the lucky SOB. I didn't mean another primarch or some other great opponent I meant the lone assassin or insignificant soldier with a large weapon.


A bolter round shot at a drednaught at point blank range I'm certain wouldn't even scratch it and I don't think any single Space Marine is capable of damaging a drednaught with a power sword.

And again, it's not like a Primarch would ever let someone sneak up on them or if it's even possible due to their keen senses.

Take Curze for example, he knew about the assassin sent to kill him the moment her ship entered the orbit of whatever planet he was on at the time.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It was obvious one was coming for cruze and a bolter round to the back of a head would most likely bring down a priamarch and a power sword ignores armor I doubt the primarchs skin would stop it. 

The lone soldier would be on the battlefield would be much more likely to get the drop on a primarch since he would have been distracted. An assassin could, most likely, get the drop on a primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It was obvious one was coming for cruze and a bolter round to the back of a head would most likely bring down a priamarch and a power sword ignores armor I doubt the primarchs skin would stop it.
> 
> The lone soldier would be on the battlefield would be much more likely to get the drop on a primarch since he would have been distracted. An assassin could, most likely, get the drop on a primarch.



Again, a bolter round shot blank range at DN armor would not scratch it and a Primarch's body is apparently a lot more durable than DN armor.

In my opinion no one could get the drop on a Primarch even in a hectic battle, especially seeing as how their battle awareness would be raised exponentially in such a situation, save another one or some crazy Eldar/Dark Eldar *elite *so even a power-sword won't work on thin air.


Even the emperor sent assassin's to kill Curze when he was being imprisoned for attacking Dorn and they failed.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Its tactical dreadnought armor........ THAT’S TERMINATOR ARMOR! And it’s a bolter round....... they have tips...... would probably pierce the skin. And a assassins bullet would probably take down a primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Swords have tips too, pointy ones at that.

The example from HH:FG was just one I remembered off the top of my head, not going to bother looking for examples, regardless, a Primarch's body is more durable than non-tactical DN armor and of this I am sure.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> "Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim's face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour(terminator armour), but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a primarch"
> 
> .





Malus Darkblade said:


> Swords have tips too, pointy ones at that.
> 
> The example from HH:FG was just one I remembered off the top of my head, not going to bother looking for examples, regardless, a Primarch's body is more durable than non-tactical DN armor and of this I am sure.


that quote says tactical dreadnought, where is the evidence for a primarch being more durable than a normal dreadnought


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Kale Hellas said:


> that quote says tactical dreadnought, where is the evidence for a primarch being more durable than a normal dreadnought


Apparently you didn't fully read all the words in my quote.

I think the countless battles we've seen the Primarchs in where they endure blows that could see non-tac DN's blow up.

Anyways I'm bored of this topic so good luck all.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Dude, your original post said tac dread armor, not dreadnought armor. I'm sorry but I smell bullshit.:laugh: If you could provide us a page number it would be much appreciated.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

I believe the novel _Nemesis_ is about assassins trying to kill Horus? That's why they have bodyguards, as gen.ahab says, they are there for a purpose. True that alot of the time primarch's bodyguards are effectively torn through like papaer in the novels, let's not forget that alot of the time they are fighting the toughest foes in the galaxy- they follow their primarch into battle, and it's where the battle is thickest where the primarchs are found. I mean, of course they would get totally owned by an Avatar- it's a freakin' AVATAR.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Thousandth Son said:


> I believe the novel _Nemesis_ is about assassins trying to kill Horus? That's why they have bodyguards, as gen.ahab says, they are there for a purpose. True that alot of the time primarch's bodyguards are effectively torn through like papaer in the novels, let's not forget that alot of the time they are fighting the toughest foes in the galaxy- they follow their primarch into battle, and it's where the battle is thickest where the primarchs are found. I mean, of course they would get totally owned by an Avatar- it's a freakin' AVATAR.


Exactly. The Primarch's are not invincible. Its playing it 'better safe than sorry' by giving them a bodyguard.

And as _Thousandth Son_ said, yes their bodyguard may get butchered fairly often, but at least they were protecting their lord and master in the process. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> They're not really there to protect the Primarch, seeing as how they don't need the protection, but in my opinion just to illustrate the power of the Primarchs.


They do need protection, quite simply they are not invincible  - and also why would they be needed to illustrate the power of the Primarch, when even Astartes tremble upon meeting them!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Thousandth Son said:


> I believe the novel _Nemesis_ is about assassins trying to kill Horus? That's why they have bodyguards, as gen.ahab says, they are there for a purpose. True that alot of the time primarch's bodyguards are effectively torn through like papaer in the novels, let's not forget that alot of the time they are fighting the toughest foes in the galaxy- they follow their primarch into battle, and it's where the battle is thickest where the primarchs are found. I mean, of course they would get totally owned by an Avatar- it's a freakin' AVATAR.


Nemesis I believe is about an assassin sent by Hrous to kill the emperor which is laughable.

You misread that, the bodyguards got owned by the Wraithlord, the Eldar equivalent of a dreadnought.

Fulgrim owned the dreadnought in a few punches.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Exactly. The Primarch's are not invincible. Its playing it 'better safe than sorry' by giving them a bodyguard.


It is all about playing it safe but I'm certain the Primarchs are well aware that any foe that actually poses a threat to a Primarch will not even bother with the bodyguards. 

And thus they know that they alone are the only ones capable of truly defending themselves.

They could be good as distracting the bodyguards of lets say an Ork warlord while the Primarch deals with him.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And as _Thousandth Son_ said, yes their bodyguard may get butchered fairly often, but at least they were protecting their lord and master in the process.


Protecting? More like fueling their Primarch's rage upon dying :grin:




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They do need protection, quite simply they are not invincible  - and also why would they be needed to illustrate the power of the Primarch, when even Astartes tremble upon meeting them!



I don't think anything short of another Primarch, some bad ass Eldar/Dark Eldar leader or some chaos daemon could fell a Primarch.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Nemesis I believe is about an assassin sent by Hrous to kill the emperor which is laughable.


And assassins being sent by the Imperials to kill Horus. And why is it laughable to send assassins after the Emperor?



Malus Darkblade said:


> It is all about playing it safe but I'm certain the Primarchs are well aware that any foe that actually poses a threat to a Primarch will not even bother with the bodyguards.
> 
> And thus they know that they alone are the only ones capable of truly defending themselves.
> 
> ...


Yes, its obvious that the Primarchs are far superior to their Astartes bodyguards, that goes without saying. But the point is that the Primarchs still require protection, because they are not invincible. Even if their bodyguards (who are for the most part the elite of the Legion) only serve to watch the Primarch's back, its still acting as a needed bodyguard.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And assassins being sent by the Imperials to kill Horus. And why is it laughable to send assassins after the Emperor?


Because if I am not mistaken, they sent assassin's after Horus before he became truly corrupted by chaos undivided. So it was possible they could succeed, especially if all the assassin temples, sanctioned by the emperor, were ordered to do so.

And the emperor is the strongest psycher amongst humanity/in the universe, and the strongest physically. 

Everything from the Primarchs to the Custodes came from him.

If he can take on a Ctan, then can anything mortal truly kill him?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

For those who say primarchs aren't pretty much invincible...



In _A Thousand Sons_ Russ and Magnus duel to the death, and Magnus throws all his psychic might at Russ, and all it seems to do is make Russ more angry. Earlier it is said that Magnus could swat the invading fleet form the sky with a thought, but that same power only managed to piss off another primarch. It is also hinted that a primarch's physiology is nothing like a normal human's, not even containing the same organs. So a supposedly fatal wound might be no more than a minor flesh wound to them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> For those who say primarchs aren't pretty much invincible...
> 
> 
> 
> In _A Thousand Sons_ Russ and Magnus duel to the death, and Magnus throws all his psychic might at Russ, and all it seems to do is make Russ more angry. Earlier it is said that Magnus could swat the invading fleet form the sky with a thought, but that same power only managed to piss off another primarch. It is also hinted that a primarch's physiology is nothing like a normal human's, not even containing the same organs. So a supposedly fatal wound might be no more than a minor flesh wound to them.




But thats the point, its _another_ Primarch. Russ being a Primarch himself seemed to have some innate resistance to Magnus' abilites.


Primarchs obviously arn't invincible and can die just like the rest of us.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Because if I am not mistaken, they sent assassin's after Horus before he became truly corrupted by chaos undivided. So it was possible they could succeed, especially if all the assassin temples, sanctioned by the emperor, were ordered to do so.
> 
> And the emperor is the strongest psycher amongst humanity/in the universe, and the strongest physically.
> 
> ...


Is it not worth a go?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

k Dark Angel ive been flipping through the new "A thousand sons" and i found the name of the Blood Angel primarch guards, there called the "The Sanguinary Host"

thousand sons: page 308- 31st line "The sword armed warriors were no less a force than the Sanguinary Host, the elite protectorate of the lord of the Blood Angels"

and a character in the bodyguards is called Chapter master Raldoron..... a thousand sons: page 310- 27th line


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ]
> 
> Primarchs obviously arn't invincible and can die just like the rest of us.


But if Magnus's psychic ability is capable of wiping out entire fleets with a mere gesture of the hand and yet has no effect on a fellow Primarch, again can it not be said that nothing short of another Primarch can kill one? 

Especially since no one but the Emperor knows of how powerful and durable they truly are.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Is it not worth a go?


Heh waste of bodies to be honest


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> But if Magnus's psychic ability is capable of wiping out entire fleets with a mere gesture of the hand and yet has no effect on a fellow Primarch, again can it not be said that nothing short of another Primarch can kill one?


Well it wouldn't have been a mere flick of the hand, I imagine it would have taxed Magnus a fair deal to have destroyed the Fleet.

Well they are killable by other means, its just in terms of Magnus' psychic abilites, Russ seemed to have an innate resistance. That doesn't mean Magnus (or indeed anyone else) couldn't have just decapitated Russ.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Heh waste of bodies to be honest


Maybe 

But I imagine the upcoming _Nemesis_ will include many new revelations regarding the Heresy.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Because if I am not mistaken, they sent assassin's after Horus before he became truly corrupted by chaos undivided. So it was possible they could succeed, especially if all the assassin temples, sanctioned by the emperor, were ordered to do so.
> 
> And the emperor is the strongest psycher amongst humanity/in the universe, and the strongest physically.
> 
> ...


By that reasoning, you could say what was the point in rebelling against the Emperor in the first place?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Thousandth Son said:


> By that reasoning, you could say what was the point in rebelling against the Emperor in the first place?


Exactly, the Emperor just like the Primarchs is not invincible. 

Also as of yet, we don't know what manner of assassins Horus actually sent after the Emperor. Whos to say that they weren't daemons (for example)? Or thinking about it, sending a Blank assassin after him would probably make the most sense.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt they would be full blown daemons........ wouldn't the emperor be able to detect them the moment they set foot on terra? If anything I would want to send an omega minus at him.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I doubt they would be full blown daemons........ wouldn't the emperor be able to detect them the moment they set foot on terra would he not? If anything I would want to send an omega minus at him.


Considering _Nemesis_'s front cover artwork, that is probably the case. In fact, perhaps that is what "Nemesis" refers to? An Omega Minus is after all the antithesis (read: nemesis) of a psyker, hmm? :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Thousandth Son said:


> Considering _Nemesis_'s front cover artwork, that is probably the case. In fact, perhaps that is what "Nemesis" refers to? An Omega Minus is after all the antithesis (read: nemesis) of a psyker, hmm? :grin:


I have not seen the front cover art but ya. Omega minuses are the people who are used as colexus assassins. They are soulless.
EDIT: Actualy yeah, I ust looked up the book and that's a colexus assassin. I am 99% sure of it.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I have not seen the front cover art but ya. Omega minuses are the people who are used as colexus assassins. They are soulless.
> EDIT: Actualy yeah, I ust looked up the book and that's a colexus assassin. I am 99% sure of it.


I agree I initially thought it was an Eversor. But on second look the body doesn't appear to be as bulky or armoured as the nut cases. Actually can men become Omega Minus's too? I've only ever really heard of Female ones.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> I agree I initially thought it was an Eversor. But on second look the body doesn't appear to be as bulky or armoured as the nut cases. Actually can men become Omega Minus's too? I've only ever really heard of Female ones.


Yep. The omega minus humans can be either male or female as long as the person in question possesses an active pariah gene, it does not discriminate between sexes.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yep. The omega minus humans can be either male or female as long as the person in question possesses an active pariah gene, it does not discriminate between sexes.


Thought so. Wonder why we only really hear about Females then.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Thought so. Wonder why we only really hear about Females then.


Thats a good question. :laugh:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> Wonder why we only really hear about Females then.


Eisenhorn's Distaff was all female IIRC, and of course the Sisters of Silence, but it's not all strictly female pariahs.

What about Wystan Frauka, Ravenor's pariah in three novels? Jurgen, trusty sidekick to a certain Hero of the Imperium? The only culexus assassin I can recall off hand in any BL publication so far was male, the one sent after Ephreal Stern in the Daemonfugue series.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Eisenhorn's Distaff was all female IIRC, and of course the Sisters of Silence, but it's not all strictly female pariahs.
> 
> What about Wystan Frauka, Ravenor's pariah in three novels? Jurgen, trusty sidekick to a certain Hero of the Imperium? The only culexus assassin I can recall off hand in any BL publication so far was male, the one sent after Ephreal Stern in the Daemonfugue series.


I knew about the Distaff and Jurgan (Baldrick) I can't say I've read the Daemonfuge series. But either way that's three guys out of every blank written about. 

On another note are their different levels of blank?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> On another note are their different levels of blank?


Yes your mind counts as one type.


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

For those saying it takes a Primarch to kill a Primarch:

What happened to Rogal Dorn again? Wasn't he killed in a boarding action of a Chaos cruiser fighting perfectly mundane chaos space marines or something?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

no he was killed by reentry i think it was and the only thing left of him are his hand bones which IF chapter masters write thier names on


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Primarchs are still flesh, and blood the only way to make sense of their resilience is the idea that their vary being is enfuzed with latent psychic energies on par with a greater Daemon which mean that if a primarch was expecting a attack it would take a D strength weapon to even nick em, but if they where tired and unprepared then yes a lone gun man could probably kill em hence the body guard.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Yes your mind counts as one type.


Don't be a jackass dude, its slightly pathetic and unbecoming of anyone older than the age of 12. And Coder59, sigma and below are anti-psykers.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Don't be a jackass dude, its slightly pathetic and unbecoming of anyone older than the age of 12. And Coder59, sigma and below are anti-psykers.


You are correct, in both your statements. Yes there are mental blank levels, just like there are psyker levels. I can't remember which ones exactly, but I think that rho is the weakest, Omega is the second strongest, and Omega Minus is the strongest.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also as of yet, we don't know what manner of assassins Horus actually sent after the Emperor. Whos to say that they weren't daemons (for example)? Or thinking about it, sending a Blank assassin after him would probably make the most sense.


In the short story "Blood Games" in the Tales of Heresy book wasnt there a traitor assassin (cant remeber what type) that blew up a part of Terra killing a govner or someone and injuring some custodes? :dunno:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ferrus Manus said:


> In the short story "Blood Games" in the Tales of Heresy book wasnt there a traitor assassin (cant remeber what type) that blew up a part of Terra killing a govner or someone and injuring some custodes? :dunno:


Yes, but as far as we know _Blood Games_ is completely unrelated to _Nemesis_.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Bolters can hurt Primarchs, they hurt Alpharius after all.

When he was first discovered by Horus he ended up boarding and attacking Horus' ship, made it to the bridge and withstood a number of shots in his charge- they didn't slow him but they did wound him, ergo if he can be wounded by a Bolter he can be killed by a Bolter.
-----------------------------------------------------

Dorn was killed by your regular joe Chaos Space Marines, the Imperial Fists found his skeletal remains aboard the bridge of the Chaos Cruiser where he was slain, the ship hadn't burned up the Primarch had simply been overwhelmed and killed.
-----------------------------------------------------

The Culexus Assassin model is male so that might be one of the reasons you hear about so many female Culexus Assassins in the fluff to offset the immediate assumed bias on seeing the model.
-----------------------------------------------------

When Magnus says he could destroy the Imperial Fleet he might not mean that he could literally crumple each and every ship, more likely that he could engineer circumstances to create a violent warp storm, remember when he first learns of the approaching fleet they're travelling through the warp- his powers would have had much more effect in that medium rather than the materium.
-----------------------------------------------------

Regarding a Primarch being able to withstand a blow that would crush a Terminator's helmet- maybe the Emperor's Sons were just very resistant to blunt force trauma, that would certainly be backed up by the Russ Vs. Emperor + Power Fist story.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Bolters can hurt Primarchs, they hurt Alpharius after all.When he was first discovered by Horus he ended up boarding and attacking Horus' ship, made it to the bridge and withstood a number of shots in his charge- they didn't slow him but they did wound him, ergo if he can be wounded by a Bolter he can be killed by a Bolter.
> -


The way I remember the story is that Alpharius boarded Horus's ship with four regular humans who all perished under Horus's aim whereas Alpharius dodged all of the bullets and continued his advance which made Horus realize he found the last Primarch and thus stopped firing.



Baron Spikey said:


> Dorn was killed by your regular joe Chaos Space Marines, the Imperial Fists found his skeletal remains aboard the bridge of the Chaos Cruiser where he was slain, the ship hadn't burned up the Primarch had simply been overwhelmed and killed..


New fluff says otherwise and that his chapter found an escape pod with just one skeletal hand and other items he used during the ship battle.




Baron Spikey said:


> When Magnus says he could destroy the Imperial Fleet he might not mean that he could literally crumple each and every ship, more likely that he could engineer circumstances to create a violent warp storm, remember when he first learns of the approaching fleet they're travelling through the warp- his powers would have had much more effect in that medium rather than the materium..


It dosen't change the fact that he could take out entire fleets and the manner in which he would do so would still require a vast amount of power I would think.



Baron Spikey said:


> Regarding a Primarch being able to withstand a blow that would crush a Terminator's helmet- maybe the Emperor's Sons were just very resistant to blunt force trauma, that would certainly be backed up by the Russ Vs. Emperor + Power Fist story.


Not sure what you mean here.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> New fluff says otherwise and that his chapter found an escape pod with just one skeletal hand and other items he used during the ship battle.


How do you presume a single hand survived reentry when the body did not?



Malus Darkblade said:


> It dosen't change the fact that he could take out entire fleets and the manner in which he would do so would still require a vast amount of power I would think.


The power required to destroy a fleet within the immaterium and the power required to destroy each individual ship within real space would be vastly different. Although both would require massive amounts, I should think.	



Malus Darkblade said:


> Not sure what you mean here.


Read the lex article on Russ.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> How do you presume a single hand survived reentry when the body did not?


His body/skeleton didn't burn up, leaving just his hand if that's what you meant. 

I don't think it crash landed onto a planet, rather it was found drifting in space.

Second, all they found was his hand and his weapons/equipment, so he probably through all that in to serve as some kind of 'I will return' promise similar to Russ/Vulkan/Khan, etc. or just to confuse everyone.



gen.ahab said:


> The power required to destroy a fleet within the immaterium and the power required to destroy each individual ship within real space would be vastly different. Although both would require massive amounts, I should think.


Creatures of the warp are much stronger in their natural habitat so it would make sense that outside of the warp, they are in a weaker state.

So if Magnus, residing on a physical realm at the time, was able to wreck havoc on such a large scale outside of the warp, I would think that just shows how powerful he really is.



gen.ahab said:


> Read the lex article on Russ.


He is saying that certain Primarchs can withstand blows capable of destroying a tac-DN helm with ease, I would think _all _of them are capable of such a feat and more.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He is saying that certain Primarchs can withstand blows capable of destroying a tac-DN helm with ease, I would think _all _of them are capable of such a feat and more.


No he isn't. He is providing you with an example. He is not saying that Russ could take more of a pounding than the other primarchs.

Oh and to the warp point, his powers come from the warp therefore it is likely that they would have more effect within the immaterium.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> No he isn't. He is providing you with an example. He is not saying that Russ could take more of a pounding than the other primarchs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

When Magnus said he could blow up the entirety of Russ' fleet wasn't under the means of his powers from Tzteench? If so, that would be one spell that would have cost a price. 

There are plenty of incidents where primarchs have almost died. And just barley survived too. One of the most recent examples is in A Thousand Sons, where Magnus faces the two titans and gets overwhelmed where one of his retinue jumps out to save him. 

"The heat if a million stars wreathed their primarch and no matter that he was one of twenty towering pinacles of gene-wrought superhuman warriors, even he could not survive an attack." pg 144

Throughout the horus heresy we see constant fear from the astartes that their primarchs were about to die. A retinue is surely a need a primarch needs. They are not by any means invincible.

In fact, even the emperor almost died at the hands of a Ork Warlord, it was by the means of Horus that he was able to save his life, and you can say that at least Horus and Guilleman played a retinue role during this battle, even though not intended. The Lion got his butt kicked by Luther who wasn't even a full space marine. Sanguinus almost got slayed by a infamous blood thirster. Horus was about to get shot up in the first book.

"There should have been frescoes painted, poems written, symphanies composed, all to celebrate that instant when Horus made his most absolute statement of devotion to the throne.
And to his father.
There would be none. The hateful future swallowed up such possibilities, swallowed the memories too, until the very fact that nobility became impossible to believe.
The enemy warriors, and they were enemy warriors now, choked the street, driving the Warmaster and his few remaining bodyguards into a tight ring. A last stand. It was oddly as he had imagined it, that night in the garden, making his oath. Some great, last stand against an unknown foe, fighting at Horus's side." -pg 407 Horus Rising

Just goes to show that even the most trusted of the primarchs warriors knew their primarchs had limits.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I can't pretend to know for certain what he was saying but I believe Emperor's sons refers to the primarchs.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I meant that all the Primarchs were potentially resistant to blunt force trauma, Malus try to read what I write not what *you* think I meant. 
Also Alpharius only managed to dodge the first bolt shell fired at his head by Horus (and even then it still grazed him) the rest all hit him.

Well I've not seen any fluff saying otherwise so I'll stick with the IA article regarding Dorn's demise- when his remains were recovered by the Imperial Fists on boarding the _Sword of Sacrilege_, the article doesn't say they only found his hands just that his engraved skeletal fists are one of their holiest icons.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The Lion got his butt kicked by Luther who wasn't even a full space marine.


I think you better read up on your facts. Luthers powers were enhancesd by the chaos gods. Yes all four of them. After two days the lion eventually defeated luther but could not bring himself to kill luther. The dark gods seeing this moment of hesitation unleashed a psyhchic scream from luther mortally wounding the lion. luther then realised what he had done and the dark gods of chaos realised they had lost left luther, who now remains in the rock mumbling that the lion will return one day and forgive him.

So simply saying that the lion got his butt kicked by luther who isnt even a full space marine is distorting the facts.

Its all in codex dark angels if you would care to read it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> I think you better read up on your facts. Luthers powers were enhancesd by the chaos gods. Yes all four of them. After two days the lion eventually defeated luther but could not bring himself to kill luther. The dark gods seeing this moment of hesitation unleashed a psyhchic scream from luther mortally wounding the lion. luther then realised what he had done and the dark gods of chaos realised they had lost left luther, who now remains in the rock mumbling that the lion will return one day and forgive him.
> 
> So simply saying that the lion got his butt kicked by luther who isnt even a full space marine is distorting the facts.
> 
> Its all in codex dark angels if you would care to read it.


I'm not really impressed by the DA codex, and so would not simply buy it to read all the bias fluff. The fact is that Luther was almost able to destroy the primarch "leave him mortally wounded." I'm not arguing about what happened between them. You may have misread the thread, but I'm actually referring to the body guards importance in defending primarchs and how primarchs are not invincible as many people may believe. so_happy:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm not really impressed by the DA codex, and so would not simply buy it to read all the bias fluff. The fact is that Luther was almost able to destroy the primarch "leave him mortally wounded." I'm not arguing about what happened between them. You may have misread the thread, but I'm actually referring to the body guards importance in defending primarchs and how primarchs are not invincible as many people may believe. so_happy:


Well of course Primarchs aren't invincible anymore than a Daemon Prince is invincible (Lightning claws up the jaxie always work well for me :biggrin so they're going to need a bodyguard. Although I have to agree saying "Lion got his ass kicked by human" isn't giving Luther or Lion much credit. The Chaos Gods elevated Horus to the level of the Emperor, they did the same thing with Luther elevating him to the level of a Primarch. 

Incidently are we sure that Leman Russ's bodyguard was the Wolf Guard? I thought he went into battle with his Wolfen Packs or the 13th Company.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> Incidently are we sure that Leman Russ's bodyguard was the Wolf Guard? I thought he went into battle with his Wolfen Packs or the 13th Company.


In _A Thousand Sons _he goes into battle surrounded by wolf guard and his two wolves.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> In _A Thousand Sons _he goes into battle surrounded by wolf guard and his two wolves.


Yes I know I just remembered he was fighting alongside the Wolfen in Collected Visions.


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

Body-guards:

They are usefull.

Look at a certain mister Calgar, he would've got his arse owned by the Swarmlord if not for the Chapter Champions sacrifice (forgot his name) and that sacrifice meant that Calagr, Tigirus and Cassius could get away.

I'm not saying they're meant to be every bit as much as a Primarch, but that they are sort of a living shield kind of thing.

yeah sure, a Primarch may be able to carve up anothers bodyguard, but their sacrifice gives the Primarch enough time to be fully prepared.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Snowy said:


> Body-guards:
> 
> They are usefull.
> 
> ...


I think the point is that Calgar is a SM not a Primarch, and people argue that Primearchs (not SMs) need a Bodygaurd or not. 

I belive a posse is needed for taking those extra few bullets, act as distractions, or at the least roll around with like a rockstar :so_happy:.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I think Corax claimed he didn't need a bodyguard in Raven's Flight but then again he had to spread them out to other units at the time I suppose. They are definitely useful though, wasn't it the Mournival who dragged Horus back to his flagship after the chaos blade? that probably saved his life.


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