# Current Power of Abbadon



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So, I know his stat line is most impressive, but characters are often weakened for their sake of being balanced in the tabletop. Fluff wise, how powerful exactly is he? Is he on the level of a Primarch? If not, what would happen if he and Marneus were to have a duel? Dante? Lysander? Etc.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I dislike the notion of 'power levels', simply because, in reality, things are much more fluid. 

But he is very, very, very powerful.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> Marneus were to have a duel? Dante? Lysander? Etc.


Papa smurf really? He would bend Abbadon over his knee and spank him like the E did to Lorgar.

Seriously I don't think Abbadon is near the lvl of a Primarch especially a demon Primarch.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

A lot of it probably depends on how much power the Gods are pumping through him at the moment. It also depends on how you fight him. He's a monster in close combat, but that obscenely powerful daemon sword is not going to help him if a couple of Hammerhead tanks give him the Railgun Special.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Karthak said:


> A lot of it probably depends on how much power the Gods are pumping through him at the moment. It also depends on how you fight him. He's a monster in close combat, but that obscenely powerful daemon sword is not going to help him if a couple of Hammerhead tanks give him the Railgun Special.


I'm surprised the GK's haven't put together a special hunting party for him. I imagine a Strike Squad would be able to take him down if they can get close enough, or up it to a Brotherhood, which managed to take out Angron himself. It probably does come down to the whim of the Chaos Gods and the amount (or lack thereof) of power they're willing to pump into him during any given encounter.

I do severely doubt something so banal as a couple tanks could take him out... if it were that easy there probably wouldn't be any major daemons left by now able to make it to the materium.


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## Choodie (Sep 2, 2013)

Karthak said:


> A lot of it probably depends on how much power the Gods are pumping through him at the moment. It also depends on how you fight him. He's a monster in close combat, but that obscenely powerful daemon sword is not going to help him if a couple of Hammerhead tanks give him the Railgun Special.


"Abaddon's extraordinary connection to all four of the major Chaos Gods and multiple arcane layers of daemonic protection means that he cannot be killed outright by anything in the purely physical world, even direct fire from a super-heavy tank such as a Baneblade or a Land Raider."

 He will just laugh


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I dislike the notion of 'power levels', simply because, in reality, things are much more fluid.
> 
> But he is very, very, very powerful.


One might say his power level is..... OVER 9000!!!!!!! Sorry, couldn't resist. 

Anyway, Abaddon has the favor of all 4 chaos gods (surprisingly enough at this point), so yes like CotE said, he is pretty friggin powerful. Full force of Grey Knights i'm sure would do him in, but anything less.... well they wouldn't get off so well. This is factoring in those following abaddon, not just abaddon versus full force of grey knights. In that case he'd get splattered over the pavement and flamed several times, then have an orbital bombardment called in on the area where the blood splatter was just to make extra sure that the area was purified of his taint.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

SoL Berzerker said:


> If not, what would happen if he and Marneus were to have a duel? Dante? Lysander? Etc.


In the fluff there would likely be some ridiculous close call where the good guys come out on top (since this is Imperium POV all over) but it would be a nuts fight. 

On the table top: whoever makes more invulnerable saves wins.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Well in 10K years the only useful thing he did was stop a clone of horus from being completed. So that from that what you will.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

This powerful.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> This powerful.


I second that.

I would recommend that everyone read that.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> surprisingly enough at this point





Reaper45 said:


> Well in 10K years the only useful thing he did was stop a clone of horus from being completed. So that from that what you will.


Ugh, I don't know if my hate for seeing stuff like this rivals or surpasses both ADB and CotE; but would either of you care to explain what you mean so it can likely be proven wrong?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

darkreever said:


> Ugh, I don't know if my hate for seeing stuff like this rivals or surpasses both ADB and CotE; but would either of you care to explain what you mean so it can likely be proven wrong?


Aside from the 13 black crusades what does abaddon do? He's supposed to be this champion who refuses to serve a single god, yet we don't have any info into what he does to prepare for them. 

I mean he's not just sitting in a chair planning them is he?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Aside from the 13 black crusades what does abaddon do? He's supposed to be this champion who refuses to serve a single god, yet we don't have any info into what he does to prepare for them.
> 
> I mean he's not just sitting in a chair planning them is he?


The overarching theme of several Black Library novels has been Abaddon's preparation for the 13th Black Crusade (eg. _Storm of Iron_ & _Soul Hunter_). We know he has forged countless daemonic pacts and, as the most powerful Chaos Lord, has played a major part in the inter-Legionary wars within the Eye of Terror. He has earned the respect and support of every remaining Legion and Primarch in turn, and has amassed "the greatest army ever assembled in the Eye of Terror". He has amassed such power & influence that (as the article on AD-B's blog suggests) he plays the role of king maker between the gods and even "daemons fear to cross Abaddon".

We have enough information about Abaddon has done and achieved.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The overarching theme of several Black Library novels has been Abaddon's preparation for the 13th Black Crusade (eg. _Storm of Iron_ & _Soul Hunter_). We know he has forged countless daemonic pacts and, as the most powerful Chaos Lord, has played major part in the inter-Legionary wars within the Eye of Terror. He has earned the respect and support of every remaining Legion and Primarch in turn, and has amassed "the greatest army ever assembled in the Eye of Terror". He has amassed such power & influence that (as the article on AD-B's blog suggests) he plays the role of king maker between the gods and even "daemons fear to cross Abaddon".
> 
> We have enough information about Abaddon has done and achieved.


And he's done that 13 times. Every crusade someone betrays someone else and the whole thing falls apart, you'd think abaddon being who he is would be able to keep things together.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> And he's done that 13 times. Every crusade someone betrays someone else and the whole thing falls apart, you'd think abaddon being who he is would be able to keep things together.


Except that the first Black Crusade was a success, as was the twelfth...and the thirteenth before it got retconned to not have happened yet.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> And he's done that 13 times. Every crusade someone betrays someone else and the whole thing falls apart, you'd think abaddon being who he is would be able to keep things together.


That is the nature of Chaos, that is Chaos. How can Abaddon keep every element of his gargantuan hordes in line? With a unified purpose. Maintaining a unified purpose over 10,000 years for an amalgamated horde of psychopaths would be impossible for anyone. Even the Emperor only managed to maintain his Imperium for 200 years... 

And generally, each Crusade has achieved something of note... and we cannot categorically describe any of them as failures. Also the latest _Codex: Chaos_ has effectively established that the first 12 Crusades were mere preludes to the 13th.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Ugh, I don't know if my hate for seeing stuff like this rivals or surpasses both ADB and CotE; but would either of you care to explain what you mean so it can likely be proven wrong?


Because he refuses to do what the gods want. He's in it for him, not them. Why not just dethrone him or turn the little bastard into a spawn, and favor someone else who will play ball? Thats why I said surprisingly enough that he has the favor of all four gods at this point.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, that article referenced by ADB was absolutely incredible, so thank you Mossy Toes!! I do think that Abaddon missed the point that Horus became the pawn of the Chaos Powers at the start, on Davin, before he himself got insight into the true cost the power would bring. This is really the first time I've been interested in the machinations of the Black Legion, and Abaddon really is shown to be more than an uber-powerful warlord, but has his own schemes beyond the boring 'kill the Imperium and glory to Chaos'.

For the complainers about it taking 13 or more Black Crusades... in Legion, the Cabal make the comment that the Emperor is the only human likely to be included on their high council ever because of his long view of galactic events. This is meant as a compliment. Well, in this context, Abaddon has consistently demonstrated more strategic competence than all the High Lords of Terra or any of the Astares Chapter Masters across the years... much less the post-Heresy loyalist Primarchs. His long view is letting him win the overarching war, despite tactical setbacks, while the High Lords of Terra are focused so much on the hand in front of their face the entire Imperium is about to fail.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> stuff


Not all of the crusades are his, but his win:lose ration is in favor of lose.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Not all of the crusades are his, but his win:lose ration is in favor of lose.


Abaddon has led 13 Black Crusades, but not all Black Crusades are led by Abaddon. And I'm not even going to reply to the second half of your sentence.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

the way I picture it, the chaos gods dont really want any of the BCs to be "too" successful, lest they consume humanity in a decade. they'r perfectly happy with what Abbadon has achieved so far, which is keeping the status quo of permanent warfare on galactic scale

I always tot that Abbadon could get much more if not for the dark gods somehow restraining him. prolly he knows that whats best for him isnt necesarily whats best for his patrons and acts accordingly?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Abaddon has led 13 Black Crusades, but not all Black Crusades are led by Abaddon. And I'm not even going to reply to the second half of your sentence.


Since CotE is merciful...

Every Black Crusade isn't trying to topple the Imperium. Abaddon has a goal, or a set of goals, that he goes out and accomplishes them with targetted determination. Destroy this sector? Check. Capture these Blackstone Fortresses? Well, got several of them, and the rest were destroyed, so the Imperium has none whatsoever. Widespread ritual slaughter in an incredibly intricate manner so as to please Tzeentch? Pulled off perfectly. Get a particularly unruly underling killed, and in the process sack a forge or cardinal world? Check. Acquire Drach'Nyen? Check. Slaughter hundreds of Blood Angels at Mackan? Yeah, until the Carcharodons show up. If you look at his Crusades, sure, he doesn't always get to freely do whatever he wants, but he is very objective-oriented and he almost always gets the job done. Sure, the 2nd and 4th Black Crusades can be seen as little besides failures, and the 13th is ongoing/in stasis/retconned to kinda not really have happened/whatever, but the other 10... those are all arguably successes on Abbadon's part. You can quibble over a few if you want (Not sacking Cadia in the first, getting driven off of Mackan, whatever)... but by and large his drive sees to it that his plots come to fruition.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

It's been 10,000 years, and Abaddon's still around, still the Warmaster for Chaos, still making a galactic-level impact, and still has possession (no pun intended) of his faculties. Name one other figure in WH40K with an equally impressive list? (or a dozen, the way my luck goes)


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## Choodie (Sep 2, 2013)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> It's been 10,000 years, and Abaddon's still around, still the Warmaster for Chaos, still making a galactic-level impact, and still has possession (no pun intended) of his faculties. Name one other figure in WH40K with an equally impressive list? (or a dozen, the way my luck goes)



Maybe it has only been a few years in the warp ? :grin:


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Abbadon vs mini Mike Ditka?

(old saturday night live skit)


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Choodie said:


> Maybe it has only been a few years in the warp ? :grin:


Yeah, I always thought Abaddon would mello out once he got through his teenage years :wink:


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Choodie said:


> "Abaddon's extraordinary connection to all four of the major Chaos Gods and multiple arcane layers of daemonic protection means that he cannot be killed outright by anything in the purely physical world, even direct fire from a super-heavy tank such as a Baneblade or a Land Raider."


I am just curious but what source did you get this quote from?


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Like to see Drago take on Abaddon and who would win?


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Abbadon has no way of way of dealing with flyers. A decent flyer would kill him, eventually :so_happy:


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## Choodie (Sep 2, 2013)

The_Reaper said:


> I am just curious but what source did you get this quote from?


If i remember correct i quoted it from the warhammer40k.wikia


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Choodie said:


> If i remember correct i quoted it from the warhammer40k.wikia


Is the quote in any specific canon source or canon fluff ? Because I have searched everywhere and I doubt that quote is canon.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Abbadon was always exceptionally strong and large even for an astartes. I always thought of him as the strongest astartes that ever lived, capable of easily besting Sigismund, Kharn, Lucious, Eidolon, Sevatar, just about any famous astartes. In " galaxy in flames, " I remember him pushing away Loken like he was a mere child, not an astartes. 

Let's not forget that it took a legendary, the most powerful eldar farseer to beat him, and even then, Chaos gods saved him. I'd say killing Abbadon is next to impossible. 

He may not have a body of a primarch, but with Drach'Nyen and talons of horus, as well the connection with the warp and immense armies, Abbadon is the real deal.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> Like to see Drago take on Abaddon and who would win?


Abaddon. Granted Draigo bested Mortarion, but he his equipped and trained primarily to face daemons, which the Warmaster is not. Lore wise, Abaddon still eclipses Draigo for power and experience.


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## Titan84 (May 19, 2012)

Maybe I missed it, but no mention of Mephiston? He'd hand Abaddon his ass then go back to do whatever he does when he isn't punching holes through orks.


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## Titan84 (May 19, 2012)

No Mephiston love? If any current living SM could give Abaddon a run for his money it's him. I am not to up to date on the fluff regarding Mephy's power but stat wise in-game, he could absolutely give Abaddon a good ass kicking.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

but from my understanding of Abaddon is he has I believe a chaos sword which gives him a edge but also I think he has some of chaos blessing. Not necessary a demon prince but still has some of that demon power. Outside of that I just see abaddon just beng a above average space marine.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree that Mephiston is one of the few (besides some powerfull GK), loyalists who could have a small chance facing abaddon, I recall that he even got hurt by a blood angel chaplain at some point ? However it seems Abaddon would utterly crush Mephiston, favoured by the 4 chaos Gods (I do not kow how Malal stands agains Abaddon, giving the text on ADB his website he might actually get some love ?).
That being said, it seems that Abaddon has no balancing counterpart on the loyalist side, not in terms of strength, nor cunning and this goes for many many chaos followers. 
Abaddon, Kharn, Lucius, Typhus, Ahriman, Huron, ...
They outmaneuver the loyalists time and again, always taking the initiative, which I find to be quite a shame.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

piemelke,

Which I agree with. It seems like chaos has stronger individuals like abaddon, kharn etc.. 
the advantage that the Imperium has updated weapons and better unity (I think) where as chaos would end up fighting among themselves .


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

the power of the IOM weapons is certainly not superior to that of the chaos faction, I guess the most obvious example is the blackstone fortress. Chaos has their own forge worlds and often demon enforced weapons and machines, plus their fleet is often equipped with unique vessels which the IOM is no longer capable (or willing) to create
plus the dark mechanicus have a more liberal relationship with research and development (gildar rift being a welcome counter example),
one would indeed think the IOM has more coherence however I would not overestimate this, strife is not something uncommon in the IOM, e.g. the manouvring against the wolves as indicated in gift of the emperor and blood of Asaheim, or the celestial Lions
besides, this relative coherence is counteracted by often naive predictable and stupid strategy. sort of like the generals used to have during the 1st world war
Again the initiative is totally in the hands of chaos, just some examples, besides the 13 th crusade

- the invasion of ultramar by honsou
- the harvesting of gene-seed by honsou, the second largest storage of gene-seed in the empirium
- the actions of talos resulting in a catastrophic astropath failure
- the virtual eradication of the marines errant by the NL
- the actions undertaken by cypher 
- recent events on pandorax

just give me a few counter examples where the IOM takes the initiative ? 
anyhow the point I again (for the 100 th time ) try to make is that the IOM is just a stupid big punching back (except Mephiston of course )


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

This is how I'd kill Abbaddon. Challenge him to personal combat (you would need someone famous like an Inquistorial Lord or Chapter master with a company of Terminators) and get him to accept. When he's on the surface of the world, send a Execution Force to disable his teleporter capabilities of his ship by getting on board. While he's killing whoever you sent, order an Exterminatus while you activate plyons to block the Gods from getting him. CHance of success is 45% but it's worth a shot. Also most of these components would be hard to obtain.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> This is how I'd kill Abbaddon. Challenge him to personal combat (you would need someone famous like an Inquistorial Lord or Chapter master with a company of Terminators) and get him to accept. When he's on the surface of the world, send a Execution Force to disable his teleporter capabilities of his ship by getting on board. While he's killing whoever you sent, order an Exterminatus while you activate plyons to block the Gods from getting him. CHance of success is 45% but it's worth a shot. Also most of these components would be hard to obtain.


1) Why would Abaddon accept a challenge to personal combat from anyone? He has nothing to gain from such a scenario, as there is nobody on the Imperial side as important as he is. 
2) The rest of this plan would be both extremely obvious and unlikely to succeed. I don't think you can move Pylons, certainly not quickly, and they are always on. Plus they don't really stop the Gods from interfering, they just limit warp-space overlap.
3) What do you expect Abaddon's ship to be doing while you're boarding it (hard to be subtle about that) and maneuvering for Exterminatus (impossible to be subtle about that)?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

a long shot,
gamble and set up losing the cadian gate (even further) so abaddon can start his crimson path,
the chaos gods will get nervous by the sudden enormous success and will all want to lure him to their side, in the resulting struggle the first chaos god who thinks abaddon will not choose his side will kill him off. Basically the scenario that would enfold after abaddon kicked the emp of the golden throne, just accelerating it.
I have no problem with abaddon being raised by Belgians (that is what made dr evil evil ) and a super villain, however there is just no contender on the IOM side, there is absolutely no balance


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> This powerful.


Thanks for posting that, Well worth the time to read. Excellent info on our favourite badass. I think I understand him a bit more now.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> This powerful.


That's an amazing article. Sums it up really.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

So I take it Abaddon greatest power is being the Great Politician. He is able to keep chaos and the different chaos war band on delicate lease. Which is weird because from reading the Heresy novels I found him to be hot headed and Aximand to be more of level headed Space marine. 

I think as a fighter he is just above average Space marine . Because of his sword and Horus talons it gives him a great edge over most space marines but I like to know how it would be if he didn't have those weapons. 


Personally I'm kind of sick of Abaddon , Kharn and any of those chaos space marines from 30k . Wish Game work shop just kill them off and introduce new characters to take there place. I mean none of the loyalist Space marine from the 30 K with the exception of Bjorn are alive.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> I mean none of the loyalist Space marine from the 30 K with the exception of Bjorn are alive.


To our knowledge. We know that Raguel the Sufferer, of the Blood Angels Chapter, was around late M.41. 

We don't know if any other First or Second Founding Chapters have GC veterans amongst them.

I assume that Bjorn and Raguel have lived as long as they have for much the same reason many of the other Chaos Marines have lived--the fact that time doesn't move for them as the rest of the galaxy. The Night Lords tenth company has only fought for a few centuries since the Great Betrayal. They've had fewer chances to die.

Also some of the Chaos players have their god's favor on their side. Look at Lucy and Kharn. Both of them ought to be dead multiple times, only to be risen from the dead by their respective god.


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## Titan84 (May 19, 2012)

hailene said:


> To our knowledge. We know that Raguel the Sufferer, of the Blood Angels Chapter, was around late M.41.
> 
> We don't know if any other First or Second Founding Chapters have GC veterans amongst them.
> 
> ...


Bjorn has lived so long because he's a Dreadnought. He only gets woken up every once in awhile for ceremony and if his council is needed. As for Raguel, I have no idea.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Raguel was killed by Talos of the Night Lords from what I've read. So now its just Bjorn as far as we know


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> 1) Why would Abaddon accept a challenge to personal combat from anyone? He has nothing to gain from such a scenario, as there is nobody on the Imperial side as important as he is.


Just as Horus challenged fellow Primarchs and the Emporer Abbadon also stands to gain by defeating his opponent in single combat. Just the Psychological effect alone would cripple the Imperial Forces but to defeat some of note would gain him mass fllowing amoungst the followers of Choas.

Honestly idk how power the man is but apparently he is on part with the Ancient's and Grey Knight hunters that have fought him, and died in the process. Is he on pare with the Primarchs..............anyones guess at this point. If he was he probably would have made it to Terra by now, but hey..........even Magnus got defeated by a mere Space Wolf on Rus.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Titan84 said:


> Bjorn has lived so long because he's a Dreadnought. He only gets woken up every once in awhile for ceremony and if his council is needed. As for Raguel, I have no idea.


Yeaaah...that's why writing up messages on the run is a bad idea. You're right. 

What I meant to say is that, like Bjorn and Raguel (who was also interred into a dreadnaught early on, very likely on the walls of Terra where he fell), the many of the Chaos Space Marines have not had many opportunities to fight and die, unlike their Loyalist counterparts. As Titan wisely pointed out, the dreadnaughts might only fight once every few decades at first...then centuries...and finally millennium as time goes on and they need greater rest periods between their brief moments of lucidity. 

Some of the CSM are similarly "protected" since while 10,000 years have passed for the rest of the Imperium, the flow of time for a particular band of CSM may have been centuries. Or decades. Maybe days or hours. This is how some of them have survived up to this point.



DeathJester921 said:


> Raguel was killed by Talos of the Night Lords from what I've read. So now its just Bjorn as far as we know


This is indeed true, but I put him in there as a point that some Imperial heroes from all the way back in the GC have at least lasted 10,000 years since the Emperor was enshrined.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Just as Horus challenged fellow Primarchs and the Emporer Abbadon also stands to gain by defeating his opponent in single combat. Just the Psychological effect alone would cripple the Imperial Forces but to defeat some of note would gain him mass fllowing amoungst the followers of Choas.


But unlike with Horus there is no one on the Imperial side that is the equal of Abaddon in terms of power, control or symbolism. Who could he fight whose death would destroy the Imperium the way his death would harm chaos? 

And of course Abaddon already has a massive amount of Chaos followers, he is the greatest warlord Chaos has, one kill won't alter that in any noticeable way.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Many forget that daemonhood surely grants you immortallity, but it also restrains you from the real world and in many ways weakens you in that way. I think its in the _Battle for the Fang_ that a Thousand Sons sorceror says Magnus became weaker after his ascension. This is the reason Abbadon remain un-ascended! 

Also I hate how people are too ignorant (I want to in many ways say stupid) to still call in Failbbadon. A majority of his Black Crusades were a success. He isn't in a hurry, that's why he is so effective!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Who could he fight whose death would destroy the Imperium the way his death would harm chaos?


A returned Primarch, maybe? Guilliman being brought back would have massive ramifications for the Imperium.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to. If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.


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## Titan84 (May 19, 2012)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on this very forum) that Abaddon has refused princehood because once you get elevated to that level you slowly start losing interest in the 'real world' and begin to mainly focus on the power struggle in the immaterium. Abaddon doesn't want to 'ascend' untill his work is complete. 

I still maintain that mephy could whoop his ass too dammit. :smoke:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Titan84 said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on this very forum) that Abaddon has refused princehood because once you get elevated to that level you slowly start losing interest in the 'real world' and begin to mainly focus on the power struggle in the immaterium. Abaddon doesn't want to 'ascend' untill his work is complete.
> 
> I still maintain that mephy could whoop his ass too dammit. :smoke:


That appeared in CSM Codex 3.5. 

Since then however it seems to have become more likely that he simply has not been granted daemonhood by any of the gods because he is more useful to them as he is. As a mortal with ties to every other Chaos faction he is a serious threat to the Imperium. As a daemon prince he stands to lose a lot. It is also likely that none of the gods will risk losing the balance of power they've obtained with him in charge.

Most Chaos lords seek daemonhood for selfish reasons such as immortality or a god's personal favour. Abaddon is concerned with more physical pursuits, he wants to right a perceived wrong. Part of what makes him so damn dangerous is the fact that he has a cause, one that he's willing to cast an entire galaxy into flames to achieve. 

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I also believe daemonhood is not something you are given a choice with.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> But unlike with Horus there is no one on the Imperial side that is the equal of Abaddon in terms of power, control or symbolism. Who could he fight whose death would destroy the Imperium the way his death would harm chaos?
> 
> And of course Abaddon already has a massive amount of Chaos followers, he is the greatest warlord Chaos has, one kill won't alter that in any noticeable way.


You mean aside from the emperor?

All abaddon has to do is destroy the emperor and he has his victory.

Till the emperor regenerates.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

JelloSea said:


> Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to. If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.


That doesn't entirely make sense, since Abaddon is all about the destruction of the Imperium at this point.

It is a compelling argument for the chaos gods robbing him of his victories when he is on the cusp of achieving them though. And thats something you should never put past them.



Titan84 said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on this very forum) that Abaddon has refused princehood because once you get elevated to that level you slowly start losing interest in the 'real world' and begin to mainly focus on the power struggle in the immaterium. Abaddon doesn't want to 'ascend' untill his work is complete.


As Serp pointed out, that is in the old 3.5 'dex. 

In addition, I believe it was in the Armaggeddon book that Abaddon is quoted pointing out how Horus had the might of the traitor legions at their respective heights, the support of the four chaos gods, and had brought the Imperium to its knees only to fail at the last moment.

For him to cast the Emperor down as he is, with what he has, without that level of support from the gods would be the final mark in how much better than Horus he is.



Reaper45 said:


> You mean aside from the emperor?


I think thats the point others are making, the Emperor aside there is no one left in the Imperium of now to challenge the despoiler.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> That doesn't entirely make sense, since Abaddon is all about the destruction of the Imperium at this point.


If you've ever read a book where the "Tool" becomes more powerful and intelligent than the Master; that is what Abaddon wants in a nut shell. He probably knows the Choas Gods don't want him to succeede with such a mission;l but he strives for the goal anyway because what else can he do. 

Then again Inquistors and Eldar have thwarted the Gods before. I think Abaddon, armed with the correct knowledge, would be no different. Agin thats up to the writers to decided, not me; for this is just my interpretation of Fluff.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

from the text on ADB his site it seems that Aby want to rule mankind, but how ? what is his ambition with mankind, I can hardly imagine that he just wants to be the boss, or destroy mankind ?
Furthermore I am curious in how he sees his relationship with the Gods after he took over the throne, depends on what he sees as a future for mankind, I assume ADB his planned books will tell us more


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to.


Abaddon wants nothing more than to topple the Emperor and claim the Imperium. 



JelloSea said:


> If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.


The Imperium is but one civilisation out of millions that have come and gone, there is nothing special about the Imperium in relation to any other galactic civilisation. The Chaos Gods are not that invested in humanity that they would go significantly out of their way to sustain the Emperor's realm. 



Titan84 said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on this very forum) that Abaddon has refused princehood because once you get elevated to that level you slowly start losing interest in the 'real world' and begin to mainly focus on the power struggle in the immaterium. Abaddon doesn't want to 'ascend' untill his work is complete.





Serpion5 said:


> That appeared in CSM Codex 3.5.
> 
> Since then however it seems to have become more likely that he simply has not been granted daemonhood by any of the gods because he is more useful to them as he is. As a mortal with ties to every other Chaos faction he is a serious threat to the Imperium. As a daemon prince he stands to lose a lot. It is also likely that none of the gods will risk losing the balance of power they've obtained with him in charge.
> 
> ...


I initially thought as _Serpion_ does above. But it seems (especially since AD-B's blog post on Abaddon) that he consciously refuses to ascend and thus become the pawn of one particular god (or of the warp in general). Whether he achieves this through sheer willpower or via some other privileged means is unknown, but I can't imagine many individuals could get away with refusing what the gods offer. 



piemelke said:


> from the text on ADB his site it seems that Aby want to rule mankind, but how ? what is his ambition with mankind, I can hardly imagine that he just wants to be the boss, or destroy mankind ?
> Furthermore I am curious in how he sees his relationship with the Gods after he took over the throne, depends on what he sees as a future for mankind, I assume ADB his planned books will tell us more


For years, the lore (particularly the codex entries on Abaddon) has referred to an "Empire of Chaos" that Abaddon intends to build upon the ashes of the Imperium. His intention thus seems to be to rule Mankind as the second Emperor.


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## ShadowMatt (Sep 9, 2008)

JelloSea said:


> Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to. If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.


I agree that the chaos gods don't really want/need ultimate victory, but this is where their goals differ from Abbadon. The gods want humans driven mad by terror, brutalizing each other and debasing themselves to chaos. The power games they play are all part of the dance of chaos - corrupting mortals is more interesting than dominating them militarily. Abbadon however is driven by more human ambitions - power, hate, greed, an insatiable desire to subjugate the weak etc. 
Thus the chaos powers facilitate his attacks on the Imperium in order to further their own influence, knowing he will never actually 'win'.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I would argue that Abaddon does want to win, but that for the reasons stated the Chaos Gods have a vested interest in making sure that he doesn't win and destroy the Imperium. So yeah, they actively undermine their chosen champion. Given their self-contradictory nature and inherent squabbling, it's not all that far of a stretch.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> I would argue that Abaddon does want to win, but that for the reasons stated the Chaos Gods have a vested interest in making sure that he doesn't win and destroy the Imperium. So yeah, they actively undermine their chosen champion. Given their self-contradictory nature and inherent squabbling, it's not all that far of a stretch.


Abaddon certainly wants to win, that much is a given.

However, I disagree that the Chaos Gods are actively undermining The Despoiler to prevent his triumph. Firstly, their interest in mortal affairs is fleeting at best. Secondly, the destruction of the Imperium and death of the Emperor would surely be a good thing (or at least certainly not a bad thing) for them?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten *millennia*. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten *millennia*. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...


Not sure if you're trolling or just hadn't read the rest of the thread.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten *millennia*. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...


I'll echo what hailene said - are you being serious?

But also, what retcons? :wacko:


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> However, I disagree that the Chaos Gods are actively undermining The Despoiler to prevent his triumph. Firstly, their interest in mortal affairs is fleeting at best. Secondly, the destruction of the Imperium and death of the Emperor would surely be a good thing (or at least certainly not a bad thing) for them?


I agree that they would not be undermining him at the current setting (the beginning of the 13th BC), but whenever the crimson kicks off, I would say the situation changes, from the moment one of the four (5 ?) thinks that the relationship with the four is no longer balanced, that could be perceived as a serious danger, by all means they will intervene and undermining Abaddon is certainly an option, e.g. if Khorn were to take the upper hand the other gods will intervene by all means,


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

piemelke said:


> I agree that they would not be undermining him at the current setting (the beginning of the 13th BC), but whenever the crimson kicks off, I would say the situation changes, from the moment one of the four (5 ?) thinks that the relationship with the four is no longer balanced, that could be perceived as a serious danger, by all means they will intervene and undermining Abaddon is certainly an option, e.g. if Khorn were to take the upper hand the other gods will intervene by all means,


I'm not saying that one particular god (or two or three) would never attempt to undermine Abaddon if his wars were directly elevating a rival god to supremacy. AD-B's article touches on this when it talks about The Despoiler being kingmaker between the Chaos Gods. If Abaddon (and by extension his legions) dedicated himself to a single god, say Khorne, then Khorne would be elevated to a position of supremacy and thus the other gods would likely actively attempt to undermine Abaddon. However, because Abaddon refuses to become the slave of a single patron god there would be no reason why the Chaos Gods would actively undermine him in the way you are suggesting, unless the destruction of the Imperium would hinder them - which I don't believe it would. On the other hand, as AD-B's article suggests...



> Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.


...if Abaddon succeeds the Emperor and lords over Mankind, what can the Chaos Gods offer to entice him with? Nothing.

Though I don't know much that would matter by that point. With the Emperor gone, humanity would surely be more at the mercy of the gods than of Abaddon? In that scenario Abaddon would still be kingmaker, but having achieved his single-minded purpose of supplanting the Emperor, how much would he care? Does he really intend to rule Mankind as Emperor? Would he finally succumb to daemonhood? Or would he just want to see the galaxy burn?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...if Abaddon succeeds the Emperor and lords over Mankind, what can the Chaos Gods offer to entice him with? Nothing.


from that perspective, does Abaddon get any love from malal
I cannot imagine that if Abaddon takes over the imperium, they eye of terror has been enlarged, the warp rift at the emperial palace is open again, demons and chaos are omnipresent in the galaxy he can just say, piss of now chaos I no longer need you ?
It would indeed make the character Abaddon stronger if there would be a vision on what he wants to do with the empirium if he takes over, I guess that is one of the main challenges ADB faces, just being evil is too simple


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Well after all the back and forth banter can we all agree on the sole fact Abaddon has a very powerful footing and probably wants to invade the Imperium of Man till there is nothing left. I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

piemelke said:


> from that perspective, does Abaddon get any love from malal
> I cannot imagine that if Abaddon takes over the imperium, they eye of terror has been enlarged, the warp rift at the emperial palace is open again, demons and chaos are omnipresent in the galaxy he can just say, piss of now chaos I no longer need you ?
> It would indeed make the character Abaddon stronger if there would be a vision on what he wants to do with the empirium if he takes over, I guess that is one of the main challenges ADB faces, just being evil is too simple


I wasn't suggesting he would be in a position to simply tell Chaos to piss off. But once Abaddon has won the Long War, what reason would there be for him to need their patronage?

As AD-B's article suggests, a win for Abaddon may well be a loss for Chaos in the sense that the greatest Chaos warlord would no longer need (or perhaps want) the aid of the gods which would thus reduce their hold over him. And if the gods have absolutely no bargaining chips, he who has the greatest mortal army in existence could become a potential threat to them - especially in his role as kingmaker. That's one way of looking at it anyway.



emporershand89 said:


> I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.


I wholeheartedly disagree with that one.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.


To quote Child-of-the-Emperor: I wholeheartedly disagree (so looks like no, we can't all agree on that)

Angron's definitely a good example against your train of thought.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.


In terms of raw strength or raw power I would probably agree with you but in terms of influence and attempting to crush the Imperium of Man Abaddon easily has the edge.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Allying with Chaos was a strategic mistake. If Abaddon conquers the Imperium, he rules over an empire of Chaos. Who rules Chaos? Not Abaddon. All those oh-so-obsequious daemons won't be so anymore now that Abaddon has served his purpose. Abaddon will have scant time to enjoy his "victory".


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> If Abaddon conquers the Imperium, he rules over an empire of Chaos. Who rules Chaos? Not Abaddon. All those oh-so-obsequious daemons won't be so anymore now that Abaddon has served his purpose. Abaddon will have scant time to enjoy his "victory".


Depends how much you buy into Abaddon being the 'king maker' I suppose.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I don't know how you don't see it. The Emperor tried to warn Horus but he was insane at the time. Chaos does not share power. If Abbaddon wins, he's a dead man. If he refuses daemonhood, they'll kill him after stripping him of their power. If he takes their gift, then he becomes a puppet like the primarchs. There's no instance of him being able to be independent from them. His victory would destroy the warp gates at Cadia and the warp gate in the dungeon. Chaos would have free reign to basically turn the solar system into another EOT at the LEAST. After that he's fucked. 


He rules the legions, unlike Horus, through the patronage of the gods making the primarchs stay out of his way and letting him rally their sons. So many of them have been corrupted in high positions that if he were to rebel, the daemon astartes and the possessed would cripple his forces. Champions like Typhon, Kharn, and Lucius and the entire Word Bearer legion would secede from Abbaddon or try to kill him. Believe me, if he wins and tries to dance to his own tune, he'd be dead within a century.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

If Abaddon topples the Imperium and forges his "Empire of Chaos". The entire galaxy (or the majority of it) gets swallowed by the expanding Eye of Terror and becomes a warp/reality overlap (unless Eldar legends concerning the death of reality altogether are to be taken literally). The Chaos Gods couldn't manifest themselves into this amalgamation of realms, they would remain solely in the warp and thus the current situation in the Eye of Terror would just be played out across the galaxy. At present, Abaddon effectively dominates the Eye of Terror because he commands the largest and most powerful armed force within it's boundaries. His hordes are so powerful than AD-B has suggested he is the king-maker of the gods - he has the power to make one god more powerful than all others by simply dedicating himself to that god. 

If the 13th Black Crusade succeeds and Abaddon brings his "Empire of Chaos" to fruition, this situation will be the same - only played out across the whole galaxy. He would lord over the greatest army in the galaxy, and as such would still potentially be the king-maker (he would only have to dedicate himself and his hordes to one god, and that god would reign supreme). After the Imperium collapses, each Chaos God would likely try to lure Abaddon to their cause or attempt to undermine him. After all, submerging the galaxy in the warp, killing the Emperor and gaining the allegiance of Abaddon would be the ultimate victory for one Chaos God. Abaddon is the Chaos Gods' greatest weapon, yet probably their greatest source of apprehension. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Believe me, if he wins and tries to dance to his own tune, he'd be dead within a century.


I suppose that depends. The Chaos Gods are inherently opposed to one another. They would all have to agree and act in unison to bring Abaddon down. Otherwise, if one or two (or even three) gods act against him, they would effectively just push him into the arms of the remaining god(s) - thus giving that/those god(s) a gargantuan advantage in the Great Game. I don't think they would all agree to act in unison to destroy him because he could give 1 of them such a huge advantage in the Great Game, and his continued existence would be worth the risk for each of them. I imagine, if Abaddon ascends the Throne of Terra, the Chaos Gods would continue to fight over him as they do now, only that they no longer have anything to tempt him with, and how he would react is anyone's guess.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I've always wondered in what sense of the word, the Chaos Gods have given him power. I think its fair that his biggest strength is the influence and sway of chaos forces to his cause. And though he may have some Chaos Gifts, weapons and so forth, I've been always skeptical of how much Chaos power can really be bestowed on him. After all, he is just an Astartes. He is no Primarch who would be able to physically accept more corruption before its body gave out. The Chaos Gods have also been known to be irresponsible with their gifts, and as such, I'm surprised he hasn't turned to a spawn yet.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I've always wondered in what sense of the word, the Chaos Gods have given him power. I think its fair that his biggest strength is the influence and sway of chaos forces to his cause. And though he may have some Chaos Gifts, weapons and so forth, I've been always skeptical of how much Chaos power can really be bestowed on him. After all, he is just an Astartes. He is no Primarch who would be able to physically accept more corruption before its body gave out. The Chaos Gods have also been known to be irresponsible with their gifts, and as such, I'm surprised he hasn't turned to a spawn yet.


Chaos "gifts" are not just physical mutations that have to be endured by mortal flesh, nor are they only weapons or artefacts. Abaddon bears the Mark of Chaos Ascendant (something Horus never did). As per the post AD-B quoted: He is "surrounded by a coil of ever-replenshing Chaos energy, heralded by choirs of daemons of all powers, suffused with the essence of the four great Chaos Gods. To each worshipper and follower he appears different (much like the Emperor…). He is a schemer, a warrior, a self-centred iconoclast and a survivor." 

I think Chaos "gifts" also manifest as favour. We have an example of Abaddon being protected from death by the Chaos Gods (being spirited away before Eldrad could kill him, if that footnote of lore is taken seriously). He bears, perhaps, the most powerful weapon in 40k lore. Daemons fear him. Psykers and sorcerers cannot overcome him. He has the allegiance of the ancient Daemon Primarchs. There are overlaps, I imagine, between what Abaddon has achieved for himself and what the Chaos Gods have gifted him. Was he always destined to be "The Despoiler", the one who ushers in the Apocalypse, or did he, through sheer willpower and determination earn the favour of the gods and that title himself? Did he find and acquire Drach'nyen himself, or did the gods intend for him to wield it? Did he assemble the largest Chaos armies since the Heresy by his own grit and determination or did the gods lend their assistance? Etc. I am more inclined to believe, given the Chaos Gods' general disinterest in mortal affairs, that Abaddon has achieved everything he has (which is much more than Horus, or perhaps any Primarch, ever did) by his own doing. The favour and gifts of the Chaos Gods make him powerful beyond imagining, but he only has gained such favour and gifts because he forced the Chaos Gods to notice him, and fight over him. He has become the king-maker of the Chaos Gods by becoming the greatest Chaos champion ever, and by refusing to ascend to daemonhood.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

it wouldn't surprise me if it was his sheer willpower and stubbourness, his goal to be the true Emperor of mankind without all the problems being a demon prince might bring. i think IIRC Loken said that men would sing the name of Abaddon as the great protector...he was right on one count, they sing his name, but in fear and terror of what he may one day bring.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I always thought that warp energy took a toll to the physical form though.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> I suppose that depends. The Chaos Gods are inherently opposed to one another. They would all have to agree and act in unison to bring Abaddon down. Otherwise, if one or two (or even three) gods act against him, they would effectively just push him into the arms of the remaining god(s) - thus giving that/those god(s) a gargantuan advantage in the Great Game. I don't think they would all agree to act in unison to destroy him because he could give 1 of them such a huge advantage in the Great Game, and his continued existence would be worth the risk for each of them. I imagine, if Abaddon ascends the Throne of Terra, the Chaos Gods would continue to fight over him as they do now, only that they no longer have anything to tempt him with, and how he would react is anyone's guess.


[/QUOTE]

What your describing is him becoming the God Emperor and basically the Gods realizing that they have no power over him anymore. Does that sound remotely familiar to anyone in the series? The Emperor used them to create the Primarchs and who the hell else knows what else. Once he didn't need them anymore they couldn't control or tempt him. They realized a being with that much power in the material world who didn't have their best interests in mind. The same thing will happen to the Despoiler. He wouldn't have anything without the Gods. Once he shows them he's not their man anymore, stand by for the Great Game to end and them focus on him like they did the Emperor. Only this time it'll be worse because with the Materium becoming like the Eye their power can be felt and projected a lot easier.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Deadeye776 said:


> What your describing is him becoming the God Emperor and basically the Gods realizing that they have no power over him anymore. Does that sound remotely familiar to anyone in the series? The Emperor used them to create the Primarchs and who the hell else knows what else. Once he didn't need them anymore they couldn't control or tempt him. They realized a being with that much power in the material world who didn't have their best interests in mind. The same thing will happen to the Despoiler. He wouldn't have anything without the Gods. Once he shows them he's not their man anymore, stand by for the Great Game to end and them focus on him like they did the Emperor. Only this time it'll be worse because with the Materium becoming like the Eye their power can be felt and projected a lot easier.


It would make for a interesting story though, no? Turning things around with Abaddon becoming the God Tyrant and now the Imperium has to try and take the role of Chaos in the Horus Heresy; The guys to take him on and defeat him.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Seriously I don't think Abbadon is near the lvl of a Primarch especially a demon Primarch.


Luther, Kor-Phaeron, and Eugen Temba were threats to primarchs

Luther and Kor-Phaeron were half-Astartes. Temba was a mere unaugmented mortal. 

The Chaos boost enjoyed by Abbadon is far beyond those enjoyed by the characters above. I don't see why Ezekyle "Champion of All Four Chaos Gods" Abbadon wouldn't be able to give a non-Chaos primarch a run for his money. 

Don't forget Chaos Horus was able to rival the Emperor. Chaos Abbadon rivaling a pre-Heresy primarch wouldn't be surprising at all


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Indeed, Temba was a normal human augmented by Nurgle's power and yet he was able to wound Horus ( although it does sound kinda more like a plotadvancement thingy ). 

So I think current Abbadon would be able to best any primarch. With exception of Angron. Cause Angron rules. :so_happy:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I would argue it was the anathema more than Tenba, that wounded Horus.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I would argue it was the anathema more than Tenba, that wounded Horus.


Second. I remember the language even describes how the Kinebrach Anathame blade was jumping and fighting with a will of it's own.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm really kind of skeptical of about the power of the primarchs even relative to warped creatures. Primarchs are essentially manipulated creatures made by the Emperor who tricked the Gods. Its been hinted that they are essentially warpish. Which you can buy or not buy. However, Lorgar and Sanguinus both killed powerful Greater Daemons who have thousands of years of experience. But then we have normal astartes with some taint who are capable of crippling them. I feel its a change of fluff. 

I understand the idea that fluff was made to favor corruption. But then it seemed they were trying to show how unique and powerful the Primarch actually was. Essentially the Emperor's ability to one up the Chaos Gods.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Well... I think it's more absence of primarchs in modern 40k that games workshop decided that suddenly all potent space marines are capable of primarch kind of feats ( defeating greater demons, etc ) The difference is that it's usually done in form of grey knights who are prepared for such stuff, with their holy and sanctified bullshit. 

Primarchs did it via their own fists, like Sanguinius smacking Kabanda or Lorgar beating the shit out of An'ggrath and so on. Plus, some primarchs like Vulkan were showcased llifting and throwing entire armored vehicles like rhino's and more, a feat no astartes is capable of. Not to mention take on hundreds of astartes and more. 

I feel like demons became a trashing toy for everyone nowadays.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Or, in Abnett's case, nearly get killed by a squad of Alpha Legionnaires, or have one only kill a single Space Wolf.

There are too many widely differentiating sources - ranging from comparatively impotent "good marines" as presented in Know No Fear/The Unremembered Empire, to the levels where you can actually understand why they are considered demi-gods (as in the majority of ADB's books, and a few others - even James Swallow's Sanguinius was this level - shame about the rest), all the way up to stupidly insane power levels of Primarch's - as in McNeil's.

To then equate that to 40K levels of power where every book has to have a worfism, intentional or not, is ridiculous.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Depends on what you consider stupidly overpowered. Remember, Angron in " Betrayer " managed to hold a scout titan's leg, prevening it from stomping him. 

Now if that's stupidly overpowered or not, it's up to you... I personally find primarch's feats to be more or less something expected of them. 

Naturally, there are limits. Lorgar defeating An'ggrath was a bit too much for me.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LordOftheNight said:


> Naturally, there are limits. Lorgar defeating An'ggrath was a bit too much for me.


Unless that was all part of the Gods plans to convert him to their cause.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The Primarch's should be demi-gods. Corax got a lascannon through his Chest and survived. If daemons have a hard time getting killed by astartes, it should be nearly impossible to kill a Primarch unless they were virtually piled up. John French kind of showed Perturabo kill about 1000 or more Imperial Fists if I am correct.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Corax got a lascannon through his Chest and survived.


If this was _First Heretic_ on the fields of Istvaan V, then he was making sure the las cannon shots were grazing his armor, never hitting straight on. Unless you're talking about a different scene?



ckcrawford said:


> John French kind of showed Perturabo kill about 1000 or more Imperial Fists if I am correct.


If you're talking about French's "Crimson Fist" it wasn't 1000.

By the time Tyr's force approached Perturabo's inner sanctum "less than forty stood with him". Of those, at least two died by a dreadnought's conversion beam.

Strange enough, after they down the dreadnoughts, he has 14 terminators and 30 power-armored marines with him. I guess more showed up since the dialogue also says that more Imperial Fists were on the ship than his "less than forty" men.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> If this was _First Heretic_ on the fields of Istvaan V, then he was making sure the las cannon shots were grazing his armor, never hitting straight on. Unless you're talking about a different scene?


_Raven's Flight_ he gets attacked by the Iron Warriors on Istvaan. He dodges most but does get hit. He says its the armor... But he feels the impact and the heat.... whatever right?




hailene said:


> If you're talking about French's "Crimson Fist" it wasn't 1000.
> 
> By the time Tyr's force approached Perturabo's inner sanctum "less than forty stood with him". Of those, at least two died by a dreadnought's conversion beam.
> 
> Strange enough, after they down the dreadnoughts, he has 14 terminators and 30 power-armored marines with him. I guess more showed up since the dialogue also says that more Imperial Fists were on the ship than his "less than forty" men.


Specifics. I was pretty sure it was LOTS. They were on a suicide mission to locate and kill Perturabo. I don't think they spent much time with the rest of the ship.


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