# We Call It 'Bromance'



## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

I've been wondering for a while now- what's the Imperium's official stance on things like race, disability and homosexuality? I'm not being homophobic, racist, or disabled-ist here- don't get me wrong. And anyone who tries to be will be throughly ignored; I just want a sensible and mature discussion about this...

First, about skin colour and race in 40k. In Horus Rising, there's clearly a black woman imager- I forget her name- and one of the other characters wonders whether she uses a dye on her skin. This, and looking at pictures of Vulkan, has lead me to believe that, while ethnic minorities and other skin colours exist in the 40th century, humanity then is predominately white. Or has this just come about because everyone does their little Guardsmen and Marines white- or can there be, or have there been- black or asian-looking armies in 40k?

Second, the disabilities. I can't imagine them having much sympathy for the disabled the the grimdark- if you can't work or fight, you're useless. On the other hand, they may just use their tech to replace whatever's gone wrong; false legs and eyes are possible, and I can see brain implants allowing the deaf to hear. Also, it's possible that genetic screening would prevent those with the genetic disorders- like Down's Syndrome and the like- from even being born in the first place, which is grim indeed. Milder 'disabilities', such as Asperger's Syndrome- which I have, funnily enough-, could feasably exist, unless someone's invented a cure twixt now and then. If anyone knows any better, please say.

Now for the homosexuality. Again, this isn't something I can see them supporting; if the main goal is the survival of the species, someone who can't reproduce without (possibly expensive) artificial help isn't going to be smiled on. But I might be wrong. Personally, I'm a bit of a yaoi fan and the idea of Gay! Marines amuses/appeals to me. Think about it- you're around this other guy for ages, you live and fight and whatnot together, save each other's lives, and on top of that he's a total beefcake. See where I'm coming from?
Seriously, though- could/would/has this kind of thing happened, or is it just my warped brain? And if it did, would said Gay! Marine find the whole thing very upsetting- something only the provenance of the Dark Prince, even? Discuss!


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

1: I dont think the 41st millenium is racist. 

2: If they dont work, turn them into a servitor! 










3: ........ No idea. Is that concept still alive that far in the future? :scratchhead:


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Well you wouldn't get any gay marines as such as for one thing they are not sexual in any way ... so they would have to miss out on a massive bunch of biological conditioning to get any kind of feelings towards anyone at all. 

But in the book Fulgrim there was a woman who ( I can't remember the name) but it was said she had never failed in convincing any man or woman to go to bed with her. 

Also with trillions and trillions of humans and billions of planets I find it hard to think that they all share the same view on the subject. There will be some that are prejudice/racist/homophobic but alternatively there should definatly be some that are all for equal opportunites ect. 

As for the servitor thing, I think that unless you are the son/daughter of a very rich individual ... then being severly disabled and avoiding being turned into mindless servitor abomination would be very difficult indeed. 

Just to be on the safe side I do not wish to offend anyone and if I have please tell me what has offended you and how I may rectify it.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

So Space Marines are asexual? I did not know that- thanks for enlightening me. It certainly puts a different spin on things... But it does leave purely emotionally-based, chaste relationships; it is possible, after all, to love someone and not want/be able to sleep with them, isn't it? And it does leave out civilians, Imperial Guard and- dare I even say it?- Inquisitors, whom I guess don't get the treatment.

And the servitor thing is a creepy idea... But what about those with wasting diseases, like Stephen Hawking, or those who become injured in later life and need a wheelchair?


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## Dînadan (Mar 7, 2009)

I think the answer to all three would be that it depends on what planet you're on, and that each planet would have a different view.

For example, if you lived on a hive world, you'd probably be reasonably tollerant of other ethnicities as there's a good chance that there would be a wide varity of ethnicities who provided 'breeding stock' back when the hive was first founded. Conversely, if you lived on a sparsely populated world which was prone to high levels of mutation (high enough for mutants to be a problem, but not high enough for an Inquisitor to have noticed and called Exterminatus), then there would probably be a high degree of racism as the inhabitants would mistake it for another form of mutation.

Similar thing with disabilities - in the mutation prone world, then genetic disabilities would be viewed as mutations and probably be killed at birth/as soon as the disability manifested in a noticable way (although things like dyselxia would probably go unnoticed due to the low ammount of reading/writing inherant in the lifestyles of inhabitants of that world). If it was a Shrine world or some other such world with a high Ecclesiarc pressence, then disability due to battlefield injury would probably be respected and possibly venerated as the sufferer has sustained wounds in service to the God-Emperor.

In the real world, views on sexuality are highly cultural dependant and I don't see why there wouldn't be a difference in 40k, except instead of it being a country/county sized culture, it'd be a planitary culture. On a world with a culture similar to, say, early 20th century America or late 19th century Britain, then homosexuality would be seen as an abomination, while on a world with a culture similar to classical Greece, it'd be seen as normal (and further, if it was a Spartan cultured world, it'd be actively encouraged).


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> So Space Marines are asexual? I did not know that- thanks for enlightening me. It certainly puts a different spin on things... But it does leave purely emotionally-based, chaste relationships; it is possible, after all, to love someone and not want/be able to sleep with them, isn't it? And it does leave out civilians, Imperial Guard and- dare I even say it?- Inquisitors, whom I guess don't get the treatment.
> 
> And the servitor thing is a creepy idea... But what about those with wasting diseases, like Stephen Hawking, or those who become injured in later life and need a wheelchair?


Well Space Marines love the Emperor and their Primarch. But I don't think they would ever be considered gay, it would be considered like how two friends who had been to hell and back (probably literally) would love each other. However it is annoying that seeing as I am not gay I don't fully understand it so I can not really make that many points about it.

But those with wasting diseases ... well it depends how succesful they were, if they were a well known general then it would help morale of troops to see him weathered and worn but still "fighting" as it were, instead of him being turned to mush. But with the very limited understanding of medicine they might misdiagnose him with vegetable brains and kill him. 

For those who become injured later in life it really depends on who you are. If the authorities are looking for more servitors than you are in trouble, but I dont think they do that much. I guess you just look for a job in a more chlerical role. 
But I am not sure who gets bionic implants, seeing as a bionic leg probably costs the imperium more than your average guardsmen (no offence) but I really don't know. If you are a guardsmen with alot of combat experiance that is greatly required so you should be given all you can to be fighting fit but I have no idea what the Imperium's policy on this sort of thing is.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> So Space Marines are asexual?


That's not entirely true, Ragnar Blackmane, in one of the SW books mentioned he was attracted to the Interrogator.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I wonder...if a Primarch wanted a lil booty play from one of his marines, would the marine give it up?


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## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I wonder...if a Primarch wanted a lil booty play from one of his marines, would the marine give it up?


Thanks, now there's slashfiction of that.

Anywho, now to get on topic.

1. I would imagine the Imperium on an official level no longer considers blacks/whites/Asians/etc different races, there is only the perfect form given to them by the Emperor. I would actually venture so far as to say that the Ecclesiarchy may very well consider racism to be heresy, vile lies spread by heretics and mutants to destroy the brotherhood of man. That being said, I have no doubt there are probably groups who believe anyone without Aryan qualities is a mutant, I just don't think the Imperium shares their viewpoint.

2. That would depend on their lot in life. Individuals of high worth to the Imperium will most-likely receive implants or find a different use for them. I think I recall in Soul Drinkers that a marine who has lost his hands and nerve damage prevented their replacement with biotics was going to be trained to assist the chapter librarians in their research.

That being said, individuals on the low-tier of things are most-likely either executed, left to die by their family, or handed over to the Adeptus Mechanicus to have what usable flesh there is recycled for use as a servitor. I recall hearing that a particular sector has a ward set up to treat the battle-trauma of Guardsman...and is also noted for "coincidentally" churning out a large number of combat servitors. Waste not.

3. This is one I hear a lot of debate about, with most people opposed to the idea suggesting that the Imperium would forbid it because it's a loss of potential Guard recruits (in the form of new children). I don't buy that reasoning, personally, I honestly don't think the Imperium at large gives a flying fornication what people bugger so long as it isn't in active service to Slaanesh.

My reasoning is that the Imperium already has an excess of warm bodies to throw into the Guard, their problem isn't in manpower it's in resources. The Imperium actually pressgangs thousands of workers into loading massive munitions for Imperial battleships not because they don't have the technology to build auto-loading machines but it's cheaper to provide food, clothing, shelter, and medication for thousands of workers than it would be build the auto-loading machines. That tells me the Imperium has an excess of labor but not materials, other fluff seems to support that view. Manpower is the Imperiums greatest asset and all that. Hence, I don't think the Imperium would be concerned enough to mandate that homosexuality is a sin.

Besides, if the Imperium needs a population boom they can simply mandate that it be required all people should sire X amount of children, no need to persecute homosexuals. Besides, I'm fairly certain the Imperium has technology that would allow them to grow a new human being using only sperm and an egg. Failing that when a gay man takes his turn inside His Majesty's Most Holy Impregnation Chapel and protests regarding his homosexuality he'll like just be told to shut up, close his eyes, and think of the Emperor.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> Besides, I'm fairly certain the Imperium has technology that would allow them to grow a new human being using only sperm and an egg.


Vat growns


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

On differences of races, if I remember correctly, the Salamanders recruit from a world where everyone is black... not as in descended from... but with 'dark, swarthy skin'. I also recall one of the Founding Chapters currently with their fortress monestary on a planet populated from descendants of American Indians, although I forget which. There are a number of chapters with cultural leanings, but that by no means gets into discussions of race, e.g. the White Scars coming from a planet that's based on the historic Mongolian culture, the Dark Angels coming from a planet right out of a Brother's Grimm tale, etc.

On disabilities, it probably depends on where you are in the great human food chain. Deformities certainly seem to run a dime a dozen and anyone with a mental illness would probably seem perfectly fine on most planets. Heck, the Mechanicum thinks flesh is corruptable and so go forward and replace it at any opportunity. I think that no matter what happens, if anything happens to you, either at birth or during your life, that hampers you survivability relative to your specific planet, your hosed.

I also can't imagine that anyone would even blink twice at behavior as banal as basic human-to-human sexual contact, much less equating current sexual mores to the future. Slannesh, as the embodiment of sexual deviancy, really is focused on crossing the pleasure/pain nerve endings, or pushing morals aside in favor of greater pleasure thresholds. Considering a million worlds of corrupted humanity, I'm sure you can find a few tens of billions of anyone pursuing any sexual practice with the full support of their community.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think that a Primarch would ever have made sexual advances on his Astartes, mainly because of how they seemed to view their relationship. The Primarchs held themselves as either Fathers of Big Brothers to their Legion, and this is a healthy view of support, fililal love, trust and care. It would take something very bad to happen (much bigger than the Heresy IMO) to subvert this into a Primarch using their power to prey on their sons/little brothers.
It's one thing to ask Astartes to die for them, they are Soldiers and are made for exactly this purpose; but taking advantage of someone who has had much of their Humanity purged from them, by someone who has much more of an idea about Human relations (more than an Astartes, anyway) would be much more abusive and twisted as the fallen Primarchs have become, I don't see them looking at their Astartes in that way.

GFP


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

But seeing as space marines are not able to reproduce anyways, how do we know that they were not made ... smooth round the bend?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Because we have no indication that the Astartes have any sexual desires. Nor do they show such behaviour towards their battle brothers. Finally why would they be created with homosexual tendencies/ desires. What would be the point?


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

1. Considering what is out there in the grimdark, I would hope that whether someone is a couple-few shades lighter or dark than you would but put aside when confronted by giant green orks, blue cloven-hooved tau, metal constructs, tyranids, and so on and so forth.

2. As for disabilities, it would really depend upon the planet and their level of technology. For the death/feral worlds, I see them placed on the hillsides soon after birth. Those at black-powder level or similar may not have the tech to do anything about it. And for the ones that are at forgeworld-level or so, servitors are always needed, with exceptions for the rich and powerful. I'd like to think altruism and enlightened views would rule and things could be different, but then it wouldn't be Warhammer.

3. I think it was in HH, in which a remembrancer laments the fact that the space marine she is standing across from has absolutely no interest in her sexually. So it is established fairly early that the marines are to some extent asexual. And then there is the black carapace that is implanted beneath the skin, it may interfere.... 

As for homosexuality in general, again, it probably depends on the culture of the planet.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

1. Other races exist, but no one seems to care about it in general. In fact most of the white scar chapter seem to be somewhat Asian looking. And before GW went all stupid with the Salamanders chapter fluff they were all black. Some people in 40k stories make weird comments about skin color, but that can be assumed to be simple ignorance as some planets may have no other skin colors or ethnicity so they simply don't know that other types of human exist. Keep in mind over 1000 years human on each individual world would all develop into various different races of humans. Most far more different then simple African vs European ethnicities.

2) Depends on your status and if anyone wants to look after you. In many 40k books family members and guilds tend to crippled members. In one of the space wolf books ragnar encounters a individual that uses what little founds they have to keep another family member on life support who was injured in their day to day work in a factory. SO No any noble or well off family will typically never caste out someone with a disability unless their planet condones such cruelty or they feel their disabled kin are a liability. Hell augmetics and gene therapy make it impossible for such hindrances to even effect the elite in 40k. As for servitors that is only a fate reserved for those that still have a debt to pay to the imperium and is actually a punishment. As such any local idiot tech priest that tried that crap on anyone of importance would probably find himself with a bolt round in the head or a assassins blade in his spine.

3. It hard to say about the whole sexuality thing do to it rarely appearing in 40k fiction, but as its not mentioned much it probably is not viewed as a big deal, and most would probably not give a rats ass what you do at home. If most modern militaries are any evidence homosexuality is probably not unheard of in the guard or sisters of battle, but it probably not encouraged to talk about such things. After all homosexuality has been around for as long as human records so I don't think it would magically disappear in the future.


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

1. I cannot imagine the Imperium as a whole taking issue with skin colour, there is bound to be a vast diversity in the appearance of humans from different worlds. The sheer amount of differences in appearance on our planet alone is rather large, imagine that across millions of worlds with a much more varied display of atmospheres, environments, suns etc.
In addition, there are examples of interactions with individuals of a different skin pigmentation within BL, and most do not seem to come under scrutiny for it. 

2. On the disablities side, atleast for noticable physical ones, it depends on the world. Feral or feudal worlds would probably kill off defective children at birth, so as not to weaken the community as a whole, and I imagine the likelihood of this occuring decreases in relation to the technological level of the world in question. Some more superstitous worlds could view the disabilities as chaotic mutations, and react accordingly.
But in relation to disabilities brought about by age, I imagine this is treated much differently, and seems somewhat easy to counteract anyway, if you have the influence (Imperial citizens reaching bicentennial years and beyond, e.g Ciaphas Cain)

3. Once again, the view on homosexuality is most likely dependent on the world, as others have said. But there are definitely examples of homosexuality being alluded to within the universe, certain members of the 597th Valhallan regiment are thought to be homosexual, for instance. These individuals do not seem to have been disciplined or reprimanded in regards to this, so I can't see it being too greatly frowned upon.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Art generally mirrors life. So, whatever answers you find will just mirror the beliefs of the author and his society. Since the 40k universe is such a dark and dismal place, I'm sure they have all the sins of our current society.

What I find curious is how they built fluff to explain why the Salamanders are all black. Instead of just saying that they are from a dark skinned people, they say it's caused by some chemical reaction to the planet's atmosphere. That's BS. I can tell you where it's from. It's from a few hobbyists that decided to create an all black space marine army, painted them up very nice, and displayed at some conventions and tournaments.

I think Games Workshop, in general, are closet racists. The only naturally "dark" characters are all on the side of evil and the "dark" eldar are actually white skinned.

The biggest problem with the 40k fluff is how they tend to GREATLY over simplify worlds. They take a terran size world and talk about it like it's two small villages.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> or a assassins blade in his spine.


no sure that would work but.....:goodpost:


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

jaysen said:


> Art generally mirrors life. So, whatever answers you find will just mirror the beliefs of the author and his society. Since the 40k universe is such a dark and dismal place, I'm sure they have all the sins of our current society.
> 
> What I find curious is how they built fluff to explain why the Salamanders are all black. Instead of just saying that they are from a dark skinned people, they say it's caused by some chemical reaction to the planet's atmosphere. That's BS. I can tell you where it's from. It's from a few hobbyists that decided to create an all black space marine army, painted them up very nice, and displayed at some conventions and tournaments.
> 
> ...


That's how it used to be, the Salamanders were 'black' as the people of Nocturne were dark skinned. Now however the Salamanders are pitch black in skin tone with solid red eyes, not natural at all as you can imagine, which is caused by radiation and their geneseed. 

As for all 'dark' races being evil what about the Tallarns?


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> I don't buy that reasoning, personally, I honestly don't think the Imperium at large gives a flying fornication what people bugger so long as it isn't in active service to Slaanesh.
> 
> ...Failing that when a gay man takes his turn inside His Majesty's Most Holy Impregnation Chapel and protests regarding his homosexuality he'll like just be told to shut up, close his eyes, and think of the Emperor.


These bits made my day... :goodpost:


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> 1: I dont think the 41st millenium is racist.


Wait...what?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think chapters that turned gay were "disbanded"
now we know what line the Wolf Brothers crossed


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Bionic-Weasel said:


> I think I recall in Soul Drinkers that a marine who has lost his hands and nerve damage prevented their replacement with biotics was going to be trained to assist the chapter librarians in their research.


You mean Tellos? We went crazy and graphed chainswords in his arms and eventually turned to chaos


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## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Not my point


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

As for the skin color I think it's just mainly for the fluff what people paint their armies, or it can be sometimes as minor reflections of themselves or their own societies; so what colors they see most day to day will be the most widespread, or the army will match that person's own skin color.

I hate what they did with the Salamanders fluff for the jet black skin crap; I was mainly drawn to the space marines in the first place because i actually saw something I could relate to with the people under the helmets. Not to say that I couldn't do any skin color i wanted with any of the armies, but it just feels different when its supported by fluff and in the actual background. (That's just how I feel on it, not that it has to be the truth. Though I'll never make a Empire army with dark skin as it would just look weird to me.)

For the disabilities it depends like the other posters have said as there are books which show characters with disabilities fixed with technology. (Example: Shoggy from Gaunt's Ghosts, and that one tank general from Gunheads, the one with the replaced spine.)

For homosexuality, I'd think it's a live and let live kinda thing, though it would depend on the planet and society too, but I don't see it as being a problem at all.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> I've been wondering for a while now- what's the Imperium's official stance on things like race, disability and homosexuality? I'm not being homophobic, racist, or disabled-ist here- don't get me wrong. And anyone who tries to be will be throughly ignored; I just want a sensible and mature discussion about this...


The Imperium by nature is such a diverse empire that there are literally the extremes of both sides within its borders. The Imperium does not have an all-encompassing official stance on things like race, disability and homosexuality (they are all human after all). Each individual culture would inevitably have their own views and laws. Considering the sheer gulf in the differences between seperate human cultures within the Imperium, all possible viewpoints are going to be represented somewhere. 



Black Steel Feathers said:


> First, about skin colour and race in 40k. In Horus Rising, there's clearly a black woman imager- I forget her name- and one of the other characters wonders whether she uses a dye on her skin. This, and looking at pictures of Vulkan, has lead me to believe that, while ethnic minorities and other skin colours exist in the 40th century, humanity then is predominately white. Or has this just come about because everyone does their little Guardsmen and Marines white- or can there be, or have there been- black or asian-looking armies in 40k?


I don't think the answer lies in the lore, more in the fact that Games Workshop is a British company, conceived by British people. Given this, it would then be strange if large contingents of Imperial Guard regiments were portrayed as oriental for example. I think its simply a matter of the original creator's perceptions. 

Humanity in 40k is spread out throughout the galaxy, many sub-species of humans exist as would different races. Not all of humanity is white, the majority in 40k seem to be simply because of the artist's perceptions (stemming from the original creator's).



Black Steel Feathers said:


> Now for the homosexuality. Again, this isn't something I can see them supporting; if the main goal is the survival of the species, someone who can't reproduce without (possibly expensive) artificial help isn't going to be smiled on. But I might be wrong.


Again, it depends entirely on the individual human culture. Just like on Earth now, some nations are okay with homosexuality, others arn't. The same would apply to the different worlds and cultures throughout the Imperium. 

In each of these issues I can imagine some branches of the Ministorum would get involved on a religious basis, but collectively I can't see the Ecclesiarchy would be that bothered about these issues, obedience to and worship of the Emperor is their primary concern after all.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> First, about skin colour and race in 40k. In Horus Rising, there's clearly a black woman imager- I forget her name- and one of the other characters wonders whether she uses a dye on her skin. This, and looking at pictures of Vulkan, has lead me to believe that, while ethnic minorities and other skin colours exist in the 40th century, humanity then is predominately white.


Humanity looks the way it looks now because certain groups of human beings lived in certain areas and climates. The conditions they were exposed to over a long-term period affected their physical appearance.

Now, I don't know how long it takes for such changes to take place. Thus, I don't know if it's possible or not that the conditions imposed on Terra (her wars left her without oceans, for instance) would lead to a fairly uniform population.

Or perhaps the damage inflicted on Terra led to disproportionate losses among certain ethnic groups. For instance, if the oceans are gone, chances are Polynesian minorities are also going to be incredibly rare, right?

Or maybe it's just a case of how war and tensions restricted travel, interaction among people, and education on other cultures and groups pre-Great Crusade. For instance, growing up in Greece we were certainly educated about African peoples, but we were still fascinated by their physical appearance.

But that's all pre-Great Crusade. In the 41st millennium, Humanity is all over the Galaxy and in a variety of worlds. Assuming conditions impose physical changes (skin color, etc.) on people in such a period of time, the Imperium would have no choice but embrace a variety of Humans.

Remember, race-based prejudice is a relatively new phenomenon, and meant to justify nefarious activities. Even in the warlike era of the Roman and Hellenic empires, race didn't play much of a factor in terms of stimulating hate for your enemy.



> Second, the disabilities. I can't imagine them having much sympathy for the disabled the the grimdark- if you can't work or fight, you're useless. On the other hand, they may just use their tech to replace whatever's gone wrong; false legs and eyes are possible, and I can see brain implants allowing the deaf to hear.


You're talking about a society were technology is treated with religious mysticism, though. Augmentation wouldn't be something available to just anyone.



> Also, it's possible that genetic screening would prevent those with the genetic disorders- like Down's Syndrome and the like- from even being born in the first place, which is grim indeed. Milder 'disabilities', such as Asperger's Syndrome- which I have, funnily enough-, could feasably exist, unless someone's invented a cure twixt now and then. If anyone knows any better, please say.


You're talking about things a benign society might do, though (I mean in terms of "coding" people to prevent such conditions from arising, not preventing birth). But that's not the Imperium. The Imperium would much rather take people with such conditions and turn them into Servitors.



> Now for the homosexuality. Again, this isn't something I can see them supporting; if the main goal is the survival of the species, someone who can't reproduce without (possibly expensive) artificial help isn't going to be smiled on. But I might be wrong.


I really doubt the Imperium would care one way or another. Look at all the material out there: the standards of morality are geared around obedience, work ethic, and hatred of the inhuman. I don't think the Imperium would care who you were having sex with; I think they would be pissed that you were doing so during your 18-hour work shift or that you were late for the Hive's ecclesiarchical broadcast because of it.



> Personally, I'm a bit of a yaoi fan and the idea of Gay! Marines amuses/appeals to me. Think about it- you're around this other guy for ages, you live and fight and whatnot together, save each other's lives, and on top of that he's a total beefcake. See where I'm coming from?
> Seriously, though- could/would/has this kind of thing happened, or is it just my warped brain?


Whatever orientation they enjoyed prior to becoming an Astartes, that part of their life is gone. Look at the Space Wolves novels for an example as to what the psycho-indoctrination achieves: Ragnar Blackmane gradually loses his sexual instincts, and memories of such impulses or the feelings he had for his adolescent lover fade and become indistinct.

No surprise there, I suppose. When the Legions were formed, it was likely done so that the Astartes would have no priority over war. Sex drives aren't just about pleasure; genetically, they are geared toward procreation. Procreation involves relationship and cycles that go beyond just war. Hence, useless.

With that in mind, actively homosexual Astartes would thus be even worse than actively heterosexual ones. Humans with no moral concern regarding their offspring or partners can "mate", for instance, and then move on back to business. Astartes who engaged in relationships with one another, though, would inevitably see their emotions interfere with their duty.

Cheers,
P.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Well, that told me. *grins ruefully, sighs, shreds SM slashfics*


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Don't shred; modify. The sky's the limit on what kind of person an Astartes would become if not restricted by psycho-indoctrination.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

And how would I make that into a believable fiction?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm sure everyone in the year 40,000 will have asperger syndrome, its whats keeping the world smart and I bet 90% of people on this forum have it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> And how would I make that into a believable fiction?


What would be a believable reason for psycho-indoctrination failing or being discarded among a group of Astartes (or even an entire Chapter)?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Probably much like the Ancient Greeks.

It ain't gay unless you take it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Let's be more specific: the above would most accurately represent Romans--and even then, predominately _Patrician_ Romans.

For _aristocratic_ Greeks (predominately Athenians, Boeotians, Cretans, Macedonians, and, eventually Lacedaemonians, based on the extant record), the practice seemed to be focused between adults and teenaged males.

So probably the only way it work out is if you used the Athenian aristocratic model, with established Astartes substituting for older men and Scouts substituting for the teenagers.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Let's be more specific: the above would most accurately represent Romans--and even then, predominately _Patrician_ Romans.
> 
> For _aristocratic_ Greeks (predominately Athenians, Boeotians, Cretans, Macedonians, and, eventually Lacedaemonians, based on the extant record), the practice seemed to be focused between adults and teenaged mal to the Chapter- put on these tights."es.
> 
> ...


"Welcome to the Chapter. Here, put on these blouse- and these tights." :laugh:
Oooh deary me...


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