# Primarchs... if the Heresy did not Happen



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Today I went thinking, what would have happened during the Great Crusade had the primarchs not fallen to Corruption. If chaos had somehow been kept at bay.

I got to thinking, and the first little thing that I started thinking about was what happened during the Great Crusade. And the fate of the lost legions and primarchs.

In my opinion, I think the Emperor would have slowly weeded out the primarchs he didn't want and thought were a danger to his Imperium.

Tell me what you think about what I just put down and what you think independently. 



_The Fallen Legions_

All these legions I think would have basically met their end or disapearence.

1. The first thing I think the Emperor would have done was have Konrad Curze assasinated. Konrad Curze was already being sought out for his actions that were not the "Imperial Way" and not to mention he kicked Dorn's ass.

2. The second thing I think would have happened is that the Emperor would have forced Magnus to sit on the Throne and destroyed his legion with the wolves. After all his legion was the most acceptable to corruption.

3. Having enough of Angron's messed up legion, I think he would have tricked Angron into something similar like Istvaan killed him and the entirety of his crazy legion.

4. After a while, the Emperor finds out that the Lion's planet of Caliban is tainted. As a result, he pulverises the planet but due to the Lion's paranoia and intelligence, he is able to live in exile with the remainder of his legion. He escapes to the deepest corner of space in mystery. His paranoia keeping him alive but away from the Imperium forever.

5. The Emperor gets paranoid and sends the Wolves out to get them, afraid that the Lion is scheming with the dark powers. Instead of going out to destroy them, Russ goes out to find his lost friend and never returns.

6. I think after the first three, I think things would have settled down for a while. Then with the Great Crusade finished and with more time to push the Emperor's Imperial Doctrine, I believe some of the Primarchs who did not seat very well with the Emperor's divine Imperium would have been excommunicated. The one I think that suits this is Corax, and Fulgrim. Corax admits in _Raven's Flight_ that he didn't sit well with the Imperial Way. And Fulgrim who seems to have had an open mind about thing would have fallen from the Emperors graces. As a result, they are excommunicated and their Primarchs are sooner or later assassinated. Bringing their legion under compliance. Or worse... destroyed as well.

7. Dorn, grows weary of sitting on Terra and looks at how Perturabo treats the populations he controls so mercilessly. He tells the Emperor like how he told on Konrad Curze and captures Perturabo to send him back to Terra. Perturabo beats the shit out of Dorn, destroys all the planets under his control in return for the Emperor and Dorn turning their back on him after all he had done. As a result he also runs away into exile. Cold and Merciless, in a fortress in the deepest corners of space where the Emperor's assassins can never find him.




_The Successful Nine_

1. Horus continues to become Warmaster and becomes the cliche hero of the Imperium.

2. Guilliman continues to venture off east and create the strongest part of the Imperium. He is given authority of the region in space. Only under the command of the Warmaster and the Emperor.

3. After the Great Crusade, Logar (if Logar had not been tainted and accepted his failure...lol) is embraced by the Emperor as being the most successful primarch and given control of the Western Empire. Only under the command of the Warmaster and the Emperor.

4. Vulkan retires to his planet ands seeks to help improve the conditions of his people.

5. Ferrus Manus becomes a huge member and leader of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

6. Sanguinus becomes a chief council to the Emperor and Horus. Basically Horus' champion.

7. Khan does the only thing he knows how to do, and thats fight the xenos threat... on bikes of course. 

8. Mortarion is used to control most of the Imperial Navy against the xenos threat around the galaxy.

9. Alpharius.....Omegon. 

10. Dorn just sits on Terra. Pointing his fingers at what his brothers do wrong. Kind of like an angry sports fan shouting at their team.

What are your thoughts? Doesn't have to be this complicated.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

It's an interesting theory.

My idea, assuming the Grand Crusade comes to a close (meaning major military actions have ended).

Horus: Becomes the Regent of Terra, heads up the Adapts Terra. This frees the Emperor to work on his next huge project.

Guilliman: His Legion disbands to assist with the building of Imperial Infrastructure. Becomes the biggest player in the Administratum.

Logar: Disbands his legion to spread the Imperial Way amongst the people of the Imperium.

Vulkan and Ferrus: Jointly head up the Mechanium. Their mastery of technology leads to rediscovery of old STC technology.

Dorn: Becomes the new Protector of the Imperium, focuses on the fortifaction of the Sol system and deployment of current Imperial Military assets.

Sanguinus: Becomes a moral compass for the current Imperium, keeping the focus on the Emperors dream of a brighter future for humanity. Works closly with Horus.

Magnus: Assists the Emperor with the completion of the Imperial Webway on Terra. With the Crusade over and the Emperors focus on the completion they creat a way to power the Webway entrance without the use of the Golden Throne. Decades are taken for this to happen. The Astronomicon is taken off line upon completion.

Alpharius/Omegon: Head up the Imperial Inquisition (The formal title of the Information gathering arm of the Imperial Forces).

Kruze: Becoming more and more unbalanced, the threat is addressed by Angron and Russ. The resulting unbalance bring Kruzes latent psy abilities and the results are catastrophic for all legions. Finally killed by Russ.

Angron: Killed by Kruze, his legion is left at a fraction of its former might.

Russ: The Space Wolves are left a shell of their former glory. Russ spends a decade dealing with the guilt of having killed 3 of his brothers. His legion rebuilds, and is dispatched to the Galatic East to assist Corax against an Alien threat.

Corax: He and the Raven Guard are dispatched to the east stretching the Imperiums boundries until he comes into contact with an alien force. Stuck in the fighting while the Imperium sends additional troops.

The Lion: Charged with the Expansion of the Imperium, he and his legion head to the Galatic North. World after world falls to his legion and the citizens of the mperium refer to him as "Warmaster." While the Lion is off world, the Imperium dispatchs the Thousand sons and Magnus to dispell the Choas taint on Caliban. The plan is succesful, though it costs the Thousand Sons dearly.

Khan: Spends his days hunting Xeno raiders in both the Webway and Material realm. Becomes head of the Ordo Xenos.

Mortarion: Sent to the Galatic South to continue the expansion, he heads east to assist Corax with his "Bug Problem."

Fulgrim: Disbands his legion to all cornors of the Imperium. They assist in the training of Imperial Troops and assist in bring the Rememberancers works to all parts of the Imperium.

Perturabo: After the ending of the Grand Crusade, the Emperor grants Perturabo the honor of building the Imperiums fortresses around the Imperium. Finally feeling like he is not being measured against Dorn he embraces the task and spends his days building bastions of order amongest the stars. First to uncover a Necron tomb world, he becomes the foremost authority on Necrons and leads the Imperium in uncovering their tomb worlds.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is my contention that, having eliminated all potentially traitorous legions, Russ would retire and open the galaxies largest brewery where he would make a series of delicious ales and meeds which would be targeted to the now out of work marines of the imperium and advertised as Astartes Brew, the only brew for the few.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It is my contention that, having eliminated all potentially traitorous legions, Russ would retire and open the galaxies largest brewery where he would make a series of delicious ales and meeds which would be targeted to the now out of work marines of the imperium and advertised as Astartes Brew, the only brew for the few.


 
Best idea I've heard yetk:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It is my contention that, having eliminated all potentially traitorous legions, Russ would retire and open the galaxies largest brewery where he would make a series of delicious ales and meeds which would be targeted to the now out of work marines of the imperium and advertised as Astartes Brew, the only brew for the few.


And *if* the Sons are still around, he'd call them pansies for making wine.:biggrin:

Having a bunch of superhuman alcoholics is a really scary thought though. DUI takes on entirely different proportions if you're piloting a Thunderhawk instead of a car.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't really think that everyone is getting the whole idea of the Caliban situation and the Dark angels, They lived on a planet with many creatures that had been tainted or were monsterous enought that they thought they could be tainted, the planet itself wasn't some un-holy shrine to the Chaos gods. The whole fracture i the legion happened because some of them wern't allowed to come out and play with the other children.

Without the powers of chaos tainting the other legions and without them Forcing events to go like they did.

I think ultimately that the Great crusade would have just kept on going untill the forces of the imperium found a decent place to fight, ork homeworld, elder Webway maybe even the tyranid controlled systems.

They would have fought until they had conquered everything that they could find to conquer or until they found a foe they coudln't beat outright, someone/ something that would have matched the advantage that the astartes had. Most likely tyranids.

Curze and Khan would have been used against the Dark elder/ elder pirates treat. With Alpharius setting using his knowledge of hit and run attack and a vast informant network to help pinpoint the location of the attacks and where they came from.

Angron, Perturabo and Magnus would have been leading the fight against the Tyranids, with Magnus working towards a method of interupting the control nord queens and hive tyrants had over most of the tyranid hordes before angron got stuck in. Perturbo would have been developing any bases/ fortresses and ensuring that they can withstand the kind of onslaught that the Nids could throw. Omegon would have been unsing his forces to conduct hit and run attacks against the largest forces of Nids where a direct astartes attack might have sustained heavy casualties.

Sanguinius would have lead the much calmer and less crazy blood angels legion against the orks along with fulgrim and ferrus manus. Eventually almost wiping out the orks.

Roboute guilliman would have continued his work with the Codex astartes whilst still making Ultramar into a place for holy worship.

Horus, mortarion, lorgar and vulkan would have fought to cleanse the necrons from several worlds but would have found this slow going, eventually leading to the development of arrays designed to stop the Necron "Phasing", so a dead necron would remain dead, thus giving the astartes a finite amound of necrons to fight on each world.

Dorn would have spent much time improving the defenses of the core worlds of the imperium eventually going on to create a Battle moon, taking one of holy terra's moons and converting it into the fortress-monastery for the imperial fists, the battle moon would take the Imperial fists legion to where they needed to fight and contained the most powerful weapons of the imperium to be used in bombarding planets and event going as far as to destoy the necron worlds that could not be taken.

Corax and the Lion would have been the deffenders of the realm, they would have been charged with the protection of the outer worlds from whatever decided to attack, the lion would have made first contract with the Tau race.

Russ would have been the Emperah's loyal body guard, he would have been responsible for keeping the Emperah safe from attacks and (when needed) policing the other legions during disputes. More akin to the commissariate.

The Emperah...... He would have taken mankind back to the former glory it had during the "dark" age of technology. He would have been the person who saw that the Tau would make a fine addition to the Imperium and barterd a deal to let the Tau form part of the imperium in exchange for their military support the Tau would gain acces to some of the imperiums vast amount of resources (minerals and warp technology mainly) the Tau wuld be responsible from keeping the Imperium safe from their side of the galaxy.

Without the Emperah sat in the golden throne and mankind now following Science instead of religion the Imperium would eventually grow to be a vast giant of the universe, technology that is now rare would have been commonplace ( jet bikes, dreadnoughts etc) and eventually the Imperium would kick off with the remaining Elder, however after some chatting over tea and pudding they would have agreed to a truce. The elder would keep their section of space and mankind wouldn't bother them, but when one called for assistance the other would honour it and send forces.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Everyone is forgetting that the cult of the Emperor was on the rise even before the Heresy started.

No matter how it played out IMO the Imperium was destined to fracture into civil war. 

Each Primarch was a mini-Caesar with their own personal Legion. The decision to tax worlds and hand over power to 'humans' was already pissing off some of them.

How Chaos got involved is unimportant and is a discussion for another time, but IMO the Great Crusade couldn't go on forever, civil war was inevitable for one reason or another. It just so happened that in the 'real' timeline, that reason was Chaos. 

If the 'Heresy' didn't happen it would be another civil war of some kind, albiet maybe on a smaller or even perhaps a larger scale.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I completely agree with D-A-C. Night Haunter, Angron and Perturabo were all pretty much on the verge of treason anyway. Magnus would likely have fallen at some point, you can't completely rule Chaos out. Eventually there would have been a equally large 'Heresy' type civil war and we'd have wound up in much the same situation.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Without Horus a heresy would have been easily dealt with. It would even allow the emperor to wipe out all his lose ends publically without having to worry about any internal backlash from the other primarchs.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, the Night Lords, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons may all have fallen eventually, but it would have been alot easier to deal with on an individual level. The reason the HH was so crippling was because of the magnitude of it


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, the Night Lords, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons may all have fallen eventually, but it would have been alot easier to deal with on an individual level. The reason the HH was so crippling was because of the magnitude of it


I don't think the Thousand Sons would have necessarily fallen to chaos. I think if they didn't get that little nudge from the Space Wolves attack, Mags would have tried to stay loyal. I still think they would have been fucked though, but more along the lines of their geneseed becoming more and more unstable as time went by, until the point where the Emperor decides that having them around is too risky and decides to wipe them out.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They would have had to. IF they didn't they would all undergo the change.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They would have had to. IF they didn't they would all undergo the change.


They seemed to be doing okay before the Heresy. Like I said, I still think they would have been fucked. They would just have taken a bit longer to get there. Also, siding with chaos wouldn't have helped. If anything, it seemed to accelerate the process. IMO, all the Sons would have been giant, tentacled blobs a long time ago if it hadn't been for Ahriman's spell.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That was because their OH so brilliant primarch had made a deal with tzeentch to save his legion. That was fairly early on in the crusade for them, I think. IOW, tzeentch had them by the balls from the word go. And, even if a they started to go all creepy tentacle freekydinky after the heresy, it still bought them time.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> That was because their OH so brilliant primarch had made a deal with tzeentch to save his legion. That was fairly early on in the crusade for them, I think. IOW, tzeentch had them by the balls from the word go. And, even if a they started to go all creepy tentacle freekydinky after the heresy, it still bought them time.


Yeah true. But I would have been a spiteful prick and rather get nuked by the Emp than serve Tzeentch. I mean, exactly where has it gotten any of them? All they've been doing since the Heresy kicked off is lose to the Space Wolves repeatedly. The only Son to have any real success at all after the Heresy is Ahriman.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Yeah true. But I would have been a spiteful prick and rather get nuked by the Emp than serve Tzeentch. I mean, exactly where has it gotten any of them? All they've been doing since the Heresy kicked off is lose to the Space Wolves repeatedly. The only Son to have any real success at all after the Heresy is Ahriman.


To be honest thats a really basic view of things that shows little or no imagination. Just because the folks at Black Library or GW haven't mapped out every detail of what the Legion is upto you just seem to assume they do nothing.

1. Surviving inside the EOT isn't nothing, it's an incredibly difficult task, with Chaos armies and warbands regularly attacking each to gain access to very limited resources.

2. I didn't know you were privy to some private chats with Magnus. Who is to say what he is up to? He has ascented to Daemon Prince, so for all we know he is now permanantly kicking ass and taking names in the 'Great Game' amongst the Chaos powers. Maybe he has slain mighty Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle Champions and Greater Daemons, maybe he has created powerful spells that contributed to Tzeentch Daemon hordes breaking into realspace. We just don't know.

3. You would rather serve the Emperor than serve Tzeentch? I've got some very bad news for you ... your getting nuked by the Emperor was all part of Tzeentch's plan. How do you like them apples?

4. Like I said, just because we aren't told about every single thing, every single Thousand Son has achieved since the Heresy, doesn't mean they have all been sitting about doing nothing, or losing constantly. The fact is, even if most of them are sitting on the Planet of Sorcerers having a good read at some books with a nice cup of tea, they are most likely doing something, as they constantly unravel the mysteries of the Warp, Chaos and Magic, and therefore contribute to Tzeentch's power.

5. Just to be clear, you would rather get nuked by the Emperor than live in the service of Chaos? Sounds to me like Tzeentch wouldn't want you as a follower as he is about life, albiet, life filled with constant change. And to think, us Chaos guys get the bad rep lol

I'm not attacking your opinion Chompy Bits, your entitled to it (or should I say Tzeentch has entitled you to it for the time being), but your statement was just tempting to respond to. 

Maybe that means your a follower of Slaanesh lol.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> To be honest thats a really basic view of things that shows little or no imagination. Just because the folks at Black Library or GW haven't mapped out every detail of what the Legion is upto you just seem to assume they do nothing.


Okay, they haven't done anything that anyone has considered noteworthy to mention.



D-A-C said:


> 5. Just to be clear, you would rather get nuked by the Emperor than live in the service of Chaos? Sounds to me like Tzeentch wouldn't want you as a follower as he is about life, albiet, life filled with constant change. And to think, us Chaos guys get the bad rep lol


What I meant there was, after Tzeentch had spent all that time trying to lure me to his side (from what I've gathered from _A Thousand Sons_, it was quite a complicated plan that took a significant amount of time) I'd rather shove it back in his face than give him the satisfaction of gaining me as a follower.



D-A-C said:


> Maybe that means your a follower of Slaanesh lol.


Screw chaos, I'm a follower of Gork & Mork.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At D-A-C,
Tzeentch has plans that go against other plan which cause other plans do go wrong which causes shit to get side tracked. Tzeenth is a kid with ADHD and a model train set; there is a whole shit load of tracks that all lead into another set with a crap load of dead imaginary passengers. I am fine with the god of "order".


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, the Night Lords, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons may all have fallen eventually, but it would have been alot easier to deal with on an individual level. The reason the HH was so crippling was because of the magnitude of it


Who's to say they wouldn't have all turned at the same time? Personally I think each of them was smart enough to learn from the two missing primarchs and work as a team. Also, make enough examples of them and eventually even the loyalists are gonna start getting spooked. How long till daddy turns on them? If the Emperor had 30% of his sons murdered, the rest aren't gonna like it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> I don't think the Thousand Sons would have necessarily fallen to chaos. I think if they didn't get that little nudge from the Space Wolves attack, Mags would have tried to stay loyal. I still think they would have been fucked though, but more along the lines of their geneseed becoming more and more unstable as time went by, until the point where the Emperor decides that having them around is too risky and decides to wipe them out.


Yeah they would have. They were doomed to fall the moment Magnus made his deal with Tzeentch, the only reason they didn't go sooner was that the god needed them for their plan. They all had their very own personal deamon with them! They were grossly stepping over the limits of their powers, again only held in check because Tzeentch and the other gods needed them to play their part in the Heresy by taking the Space Wolves out. The Wolves and Thousand Sons had been manipulated into mistrusting each other from their very inception. But yeah, they were always going to fall, it was just a mtter of when.



MEQinc said:


> Who's to say they wouldn't have all turned at the same time? Personally I think each of them was smart enough to learn from the two missing primarchs and work as a team. Also, make enough examples of them and eventually even the loyalists are gonna start getting spooked. How long till daddy turns on them? If the Emperor had 30% of his sons murdered, the rest aren't gonna like it.


I don't think they would because they all would have fallen at different times and for different reasons imo. The Night Lords were already on the way out before the Heresy kicked off, and they weren't all jumping in to help them then. The Thousand Sons would have fallen against their own choice. The World Eaters would have been taken out before they rebelled i think. And the Iron Warriors, well they would have taken quite some time i think, or would have been sanctioned or called to account for their actions after Olympia.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think they would because they all would have fallen at different times and for different reasons imo. The Night Lords were already on the way out before the Heresy kicked off, and they weren't all jumping in to help them then. The Thousand Sons would have fallen against their own choice. The World Eaters would have been taken out before they rebelled i think. And the Iron Warriors, well they would have taken quite some time i think, or would have been sanctioned or called to account for their actions after Olympia.


The Night Lords, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were all on their way out when the Heresy started. The only reason they weren't called to account for the various things they'd done wrong was because they're was a bigger fish to fry. 

The Night Lords were pretty much rogue after Night Haunters attack on Dorn and the destruction of Nostromo.
The Thousand Son were being sanctioned and Tzeetch would likely have had them team up with the other some how.
The World Eaters were going to be called to account for that massacre the Ultramarines witnessed (don't remember the name). Where it specifically states that the Heresy broke out before that sanctioning could come.
The Iron Warriors massacre of Olympia would likely have seen them outed. If not I think one of the others could have persuaded Perturabo to join them (I went it why on another thread).

Others who might have joined them included Fulgrim (under Slaaneshs influence), Lorgar (he was already the gods pawn), Mortarion (still don't really know what was going through his head), Alpharius (again, don't know what his thought process was), the Lion (it's certainly a possibility, he was arrogant, paranoid and distant and the gods are noted to have taken an interest in him). So really all that changes is that it becomes the Lionite Heresy and possibly succeeds (although it doesn't sound as cool).


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I think the chaos gods arent that bothered whether the demon primarchs do anything at all, I think that Lorgar and Magnus were more strategically important to the imperium than people think. I would say that chaos wanted them out of the way. As if to say as long as they are not working for the Imperium and are happy on some planet in the EoT, then they are doing their bit for chaos.
Its my opinion that Magnus and Lorgar represented something that could have lead mankind to victory over chaos and the chaos gods needed them out of the way. Stategically they are more like prisoners of war than slaves of chaos. 

Remember that in 40k Psychic power is much more tolerated and Religious faith is considered essential to combating chaos, yet in 30k they were allowed to be ostracised from Imperial society.

Lorgar and Magnus and to a lesser extent Fulgrim and Manus are the Primarchs who are capable of improving the Imperium in ways beyond killing people, Its seems coincidental that they are taken out of the equation very early on.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

Personally, I would have thought that the Heresy would happen, but instead it wasn't Chaos that causes it, and simply the Primarchs up bringing and differences.

Of course, the sides would be different though, and the side without the Emperor (if there is one) would most probably lose.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Night Lords, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were all on their way out when the Heresy started. The only reason they weren't called to account for the various things they'd done wrong was because they're was a bigger fish to fry.
> 
> The Night Lords were pretty much rogue after Night Haunters attack on Dorn and the destruction of Nostromo.
> The Thousand Son were being sanctioned and Tzeetch would likely have had them team up with the other some how.
> ...


Yes but they were all on there way out for different reasons, none of them because they wanted to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium. They have nothing to unite them without Horus and his ambition and objectives, which is why Horus was so critical for the Heresy to happen. He was needed to bring them all together. Without the heresy happening, which is what this thread is based on, there would be no reason for the Alpha Legion to help the traitors, I don't know why the Lion would suddenly join the traitors when he didn't in the proper Heresy, and even if you want to believe he was a fence sitter(which i don't) he's not going to join the team which is obviously going to lose. 

Again, without Horus, there is no combined Heresy. He was essential to it happening, as he needed to unite them all as i said before.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't believe any of the Primarchs were on the way out as such, after hearing of the Unification wars on Terra and the great crusade, it seemed the Emperor was always comfortable with hard line killer legions.

Then something changed, he decided they weren't fashionable anymore. A bit like the end of the cold war when cia black ops arent needed any more and are denied and killed off and covered up. He started listening to complaints from someone and should have told them to piss off, but he didnt he started sanctioning his legions. Politics I guess, he started selling out his own sons so he wouldnt look unpopular in the press - common story.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yes but they were all on there way out for different reasons, none of them because they wanted to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium. They have nothing to unite them without Horus and his ambition and objectives, which is why Horus was so critical for the Heresy to happen. He was needed to bring them all together. Without the heresy happening, which is what this thread is based on, there would be no reason for the Alpha Legion to help the traitors, I don't know why the Lion would suddenly join the traitors when he didn't in the proper Heresy, and even if you want to believe he was a fence sitter(which i don't) he's not going to join the team which is obviously going to lose.
> 
> Again, without Horus, there is no combined Heresy. He was essential to it happening, as he needed to unite them all as i said before.


It's debatable whether or not Perturabo, Mortarion and Angron wanted to kill the Emperor, they each had reasons to. And the Night Haunter almost certainly wanted to destroy the Imperium, he had already turned his back on it. Is their survival not reason enough to unify them? Each of these primarchs is a ruthless pragmatist, each would be (and ultimately was) willing to join with people who didn't really agree with them because it served their individual goals. 

The Alpha Legions motivations have never really been explained and so we cannot say with any certainty that they would not have joined without Horus. Perhaps Lion didn't join the proper Heresy because it was headed by Horus? Perhaps he wanted to lead it himself? He may believed he was the better general and decided to prove it by siding against Horus. Similar to Perturabo's motivation for joining the team (though completely opposite in its results). He may have beleived that with him to lead it, this new Heresy wouldn't have failed. 

In the end I don't believe Horus was very necessary for the Heresy. He was the pawn of others from the get-go. He was the face that ultimately became the center but he was not the master/designer of the Heresy.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> It's debatable whether or not Perturabo, Mortarion and Angron wanted to kill the Emperor, they each had reasons to. And the Night Haunter almost certainly wanted to destroy the Imperium, he had already turned his back on it. Is their survival not reason enough to unify them? Each of these primarchs is a ruthless pragmatist, each would be (and ultimately was) willing to join with people who didn't really agree with them because it served their individual goals.
> 
> The Alpha Legions motivations have never really been explained and so we cannot say with any certainty that they would not have joined without Horus. Perhaps Lion didn't join the proper Heresy because it was headed by Horus? Perhaps he wanted to lead it himself? He may believed he was the better general and decided to prove it by siding against Horus. Similar to Perturabo's motivation for joining the team (though completely opposite in its results). He may have beleived that with him to lead it, this new Heresy wouldn't have failed.
> 
> In the end I don't believe Horus was very necessary for the Heresy. He was the pawn of others from the get-go. He was the face that ultimately became the center but he was not the master/designer of the Heresy.


The Lion is loyal, he has proved this enough, all we have is one book with a traitor marine claiming he is not. Every other shred of evidence points to the Lion being a loyalist through and through and utterly loyal to the Emperor.

I take it you have read Legion? Without the heresy taking place, there is no reason for them to join the traitors, i would say their reasons for joining Horus are pretty clear after reading Legion. 

All evidence points to Horus being utterly crucial to the chaos plans and he being the ones to unite everyone, as he was the warmaster, the most charasmatic of them, he knew exactly how to get them to join him.

And i wouldn't say any of those Primarchs are pragmatics at all. Alpharius and Omegon were the pragmatists of the primarchs.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Lion is loyal, he has proved this enough, all we have is one book with a traitor marine claiming he is not. Every other shred of evidence points to the Lion being a loyalist through and through and utterly loyal to the Emperor.


In _First Heretic_ we are shown that the Gods had plans for him. Clearly these plans did not come to fruition and I do not doubt the Lions current loyalty. However, in a purely speculative discussion such as this, such things cannot be taken lightly. I have suggested other reasons why the Lion might have joined/lead a different Heresy.



> I take it you have read Legion? Without the heresy taking place, there is no reason for them to join the traitors, i would say their reasons for joining Horus are pretty clear after reading Legion.


Because Xenos told them too? That seems highly unlikely to be the only reason. It completely degrades their intelligence. Also, am I the only one who gets a very serious Tzeentch vibe from the Cabal? Ultimately I think the Alpha Legion thought the Imperium was weak and acted accordingly.



> All evidence points to Horus being utterly crucial to the chaos plans and he being the ones to unite everyone, as he was the warmaster, the most charasmatic of them, he knew exactly how to get them to join him.


Again, I cannot think of a single primarch who turned solely because of Horus' charisma. Each and every other one of them had other reasons, many of which were created by Lorgar and the Word Bearers. 



> And i wouldn't say any of those Primarchs are pragmatics at all. Alpharius and Omegon were the pragmatists of the primarchs.


I believe that each of them had "A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems." which is how thefreedictionary.com defines pragmatism and how I was using it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Legion makes it look pretty clear thats what they decided. The vision they were shown seems to be more than just a simple vision, it seems to have imprinted on them on such a level(likely psychic) as to make them believe it was true. As they definetly seemed to go for it and believe it straight away as they went to attack the Imperial fleet with them straight away. And they very much claim to still be 'For the Emperor' and theres no need to lie to a man your about to kill or too each other when talking.

In regards to the Lion being shown with the traitors in The First Heretic, ADB himself who wrote that has gone on to say he believed the Lion to be utterly loyal, and even though the gods had plans for him and attempted to corrupt him, he still remained loyal to the end. Will have to find the interview.

Hmmm and i will concede the pragmatism on the basic defintion, i was more going on the philosphy of it. Regardless i'll concede that one.

It's not Horus charimas that soley turned them. It was Horus that played upon the misgiving they had and turned that to his own ways and unified them.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well Legion makes it look pretty clear thats what they decided. The vision they were shown seems to be more than just a simple vision, it seems to have imprinted on them on such a level(likely psychic) as to make them believe it was true. As they definetly seemed to go for it and believe it straight away as they went to attack the Imperial fleet with them straight away. And they very much claim to still be 'For the Emperor' and theres no need to lie to a man your about to kill or too each other when talking.


So alter the vision a bit so it shows the new Heresy doing the same thing. Not beyond the realm of possibility or the machinations of Tzeentch (although apparently I am the only one who thought that, boo).



> In regards to the Lion being shown with the traitors in The First Heretic, ADB himself who wrote that has gone on to say he believed the Lion to be utterly loyal, and even though the gods had plans for him and attempted to corrupt him, he still remained loyal to the end. Will have to find the interview.


I've read that discussion and I stated exactly that in my previous post. The Gods had plans for him, they didn't come to pass. In the speculative universe that this debate is taking place in I do not feel that we can safely assume that is still the case. 



> Hmmm and i will concede the pragmatism on the basic defintion, i was more going on the philosphy of it. Regardless i'll concede that one.


Fair enough, that's the problem with words like that and the internet. :victory:



> It's not Horus charimas that soley turned them. It was Horus that played upon the misgiving they had and turned that to his own ways and unified them.


I think another Primarch would have been able to do the same thing. Lorgar for example does a decent enough job in _First Heretic_ before the Drop Site Massacre.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Problem is Lorgar was already preaching to the converted, quite literally. In all regard the majority of Primarchs saw him as abit of a tool.

Far on on Jonson, i still believe he is utterly loyal, but hey each to their own.

I don't the Cabal incident was a Tzeentch thing, it smacks of Eldar workings, complete with Eldar present. Seeing a vision of the future and using another race to change it for them, getting it wrong in the process. Fucking eldar


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Problem is Lorgar was already preaching to the converted, quite literally. In all regard the majority of Primarchs saw him as abit of a tool.


A tool yes, but a tool they were all completely willing to listen to, work with and save (in one case at least). He was preaching to the converted but he helped convert them. The insertion of Warrior Lodges into their legions, the Olympia incident, ect. were all carried out by the Word Bearers prior to the turning of Horus. 



> I don't the Cabal incident was a Tzeentch thing, it smacks of Eldar workings, complete with Eldar present. Seeing a vision of the future and using another race to change it for them, getting it wrong in the process. Fucking eldar


Except that the only Eldar on the cabal is an outlaw. But whatever, to each their own.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> A tool yes, but a tool they were all completely willing to listen to, work with and save (in one case at least). He was preaching to the converted but he helped convert them. The insertion of Warrior Lodges into their legions, the Olympia incident, ect. were all carried out by the Word Bearers prior to the turning of Horus.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that the only Eldar on the cabal is an outlaw. But whatever, to each their own.


 
I dunno, even then they didn't really need him there, they were already set and ready to go, it was quite likely Alpharius who devised the Istvaan plan anyway. And the lodges werent them listening to Lorgar really, it was 50 years of subtle manipulations, but i see your point on the lodges in general. Kurze only saved Lorgar because he stands to lose more by letting Corax kill him, plus i just generally got the feeling he wanted to deny Corax and the loyalists in general any kind of small victory.

Well we will probably never know the true drive and meaning behind the cabal, i just think it was very typically Eldar. Like you said, each to their own


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I think most the legions at some point would have rebelled. The only ones I could see remaining loyal are the UM, the EC, the WB, the DA, and maybe the IF. Those are the only ones That would have been content with peace. Once the great crusade ended and humanity no longer had a singular objective, the primarchs would have fought each other or the emperor over rivalries and past insults.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't believe so. All the loyalist legions definetly proved their loyalty during the Heresy at least. Sanguinius i would say would never rebel, along with Russ, Dorn, Guilliman, all the loyalist primarchs. Horus knew the majority of the loyalist primarchs wouldn't turn from the Emperor, apart from Ferrus who he tried to have turned to their cause, but he remained staunchly loyal right until the end. Chaos planned to, but in the end couldn't corrupt The Lion (i'm sorry but the ramblings and biased views of Astelan just don't sit with me, and there is no other single reference to the Lion being disloyal, and both A-D-B and Fallen Angels agree with this). Without the heresy i believe Alpharius and Omegon also would have stayed loyal.

Plus the wars never would have been over. The Orks would still be around, Chaos would still be inciting wars and rebellion on Imperial and non-Imperial worlds. The Tyranids would start to move in eventually, as would the Necrons begin to awake. Both the Eldar and Dark Eldar would have continued to be fought. There would never be any 'peace' for the Imperium or its armies


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Not just rebellion against the emperor but infighting. I could definitely see Dorn fighting against Cruze or Peturabo. I forgot about Saguinius, he wouldn't rebel or seek a fight against one of his brothers but Angron definitely would attack him,or the emperor, or both of them. If the Hersey has shown us anything, it's that this is not a loving family, even without the corrupting influence of chaos. 

Also the necrons and tyranids are a good point, but if the great crusade kept on going it most certainly would have ended the eldar and the orks. Im not saying it would have been fast, but the legions were winning victory after with no signs of stopping or slowing down. And I don't individual human worlds rebelling would have been enough to satisfy the blood lust of 18 legions, not unless the rebellion was the size of HH chaos forces.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You really need to understand just how difficult it is to actually beat the Orks. 1 spore is all it takes. And i imagine the Eldar would continue to manipulate humanity and manage to survive. It's what they do best.


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