# 40k VS Star Wars



## 12ebootX797

While the answers may be biased since this is a Warhammer site, tell me Heresy who would win in a fight 40k or Star Wars and how bad?


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## Moonschwine

None.

I'd choose "Star Was" considerably.

Why? Star Wars have reliable Faster-Than-Light travel technology. The ability to reliably deliver strikes and reinforcements is crucial in developments, and the hit and run abilities of having in-system FTL technology are far more valuable than having Spess Marines.


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## bobahoff

Considering how badly storm troopers shoot, and the fact that their armour can't stop anything, 40k would walk it easily


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## normtheunsavoury

Moved to 40K Fluff

40K wins because, well, they just do.


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## Angel of Blood

Got to depend on which universe it's in as well. If it's in the 40k verse, then the warp and all the nasty shit that comes with it is going to play a factor.


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## spanner94ezekiel

I swear we had a massive one of these threads a while back that just ended up as a flame war...

For the record I'm going with 40k simply because of scale.


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## Ring Master "Honka"

i would love to see a jedi vs khan the betrayer that would be an insane fight.
but i think we would also need to take into account. WHEN about in 40k and in star wars would this be?.
we talking the emperor walking about or we talking as it stands now.

also are we talking star war during the clone wars with full clone army full robots army and few hundred jedi. or the latest one where the rebels have destroyed most of the forces.

i feel i have thought to much about this.


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## Logaan

As a seventies kid, brought up on Star Wars there is only really one winner for me. 

Boba Fett FTW :grin:


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## Calistrasza

If it came down to a one-on-one pitched battle between equal opposing sides:

Star Wars would win handily in a space engagement with reliable FTL technology, reliable deflector shields, and almost purely energy weapons/torpedoes. They also have far more maneuverable space superiority fighters. And once they won the orbital engagement it wouldn't take long for the bombardments and strafing runs to win the ground war. It's also important to remember that hyperspace doesn't appear to take that long even when you're crossing the entire galaxy, while Warp travel can take months if the currents are messy. 

As soon as Jedi are involved all hope for 40k flies out the window, as the Jedi are possessed of George Lukas' greatest weapon, the "Create New Powers As You Need Them" power. I'm not sure they could deflect a bolter round with a lightsaber, but they could probably bounce them away with the force and just use the saber for lasbolts. 

Come to think of it since the blaster weapons in Star Wars are all laser based and lasers by definition have almost no kinetic energy, it's entirely possible Jedi could deflect lascannon bolts.


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## Tensiu

Note that in Star Wars laser bolts are ridiculously slow (perhaps that's why they can travel faster-than-light so easily?) and Spess Marines could probably dodge some of them. Besides, attacked by clones, they wouldn't really have to dodge - just charge in and slay everything clad in plastic armour.
Add daemons, countless Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldars and imperial artillery and, for me at least, it is clear that 40k > SW.
Lightsabers might be all-cutting, but are gay and make gay "bzzz" sound.
Chainsword tear everything, rather than cut, and make "RRROOO-motherfucking-AAARRRR". And it's manlier.


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## Iniquity

Star Wars handily during the Old Republic times because of the abundance of Jedi. Star Wars handily during the Reign of the Empire because of Super Lasers. 40k barely during the New Republic Times.

Remember, Storm Troopers are the equivalent of Imperial Guard, but have better vehicles.


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## Battman

This is weird i was having a discusion with one of my mates the other day about this. but 40k would kill the star wars, along with the power of the imperium. You might want to consider the myriad of xenos who also would just jump into the brawl because they could. 

In the end the orks stomp eveyone


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## Magpie_Oz

If I remember correctly Star Wars was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

That would mean they be up against either the 'nids or the Necron.


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## Battman

"Omnom tasty clone troopers" said the tyranid  and necrons just kill everybody


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## Fiddlestix

Tensiu said:


> Chainsword tear everything, rather than cut, and make "RRROOO-motherfucking-AAARRRR". And it's manlier.


lol'd hard

An army of Librarians against an army of Jedi......would make an awesome Episode 7.

Orks would prolly just want to steal the Jedi's lightsabers. "I haz one a da humies shiney laser boss poles. Howzit work anyway?" -Famous last words of Darth Gitkicker


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## Battman

Fiddlestix said:


> ;Orks would prolly just want to steal the Jedi's lightsabers. "I haz one a da humies shiney laser boss poles. Howzit work anyway?" -Famous last words of Darth Gitkicker


WAAAAAAGH FlASHY CUTTY THINGY ORKS WANT!!!!!


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## Fiddlestix

Battman said:


> WAAAAAAGH FlASHY CUTTY THINGY ORKS WANT!!!!!


The galaxy has never known such a threat as a Sith Ork........RED LIGHT CHOPPAZ!!!!! ZAPPY SHOOTAZ!!!!! LOOTED STAR DESTROYAZ!!!!! DA DEFF STAR!!!!! *dies*


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## OIIIIIIO

To me Star Wars vehicles are fairly similar to Eldar stuff in the way that things are rounded and smooth and most are pleasing to the eye. The Imperium of Man took a page right out of the Jeep Engineering Department. Take a square fucking cracker box and put tracks on it or wings on it ... with enough thrust it will go.

The imperium equipment is most assuredly slower and bulkier, but it can take more punishment than what the Star Wars stuff can.


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## Fiddlestix

Yea 40,000 years in the future they apparently have forgotten about aerodynamics.

What if the 2 empires became 1? Well, no that prolly wouldn't happen. If anything the Star Wars Empire would throw in with Chaos. What an army THAT would be!


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## shaantitus

Looted Death Star. Orks win.


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## Fiddlestix

Da Deff Star firing = Orkgasm. 

"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if billions of voices suddenly cried out in sadistic, blood thirsty pleasure. I fear something terrible has happened."


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## Ring Master "Honka"

shaantitus said:


> Looted Death Star. Orks win.


thats it im finding a death star model and freaking making that.
orks would have stuck a armour plate over that exahaust port.


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## locustgate

Moonschwine said:


> None.
> 
> I'd choose "Star Was" considerably.
> 
> Why? Star Wars have reliable Faster-Than-Light travel technology. The ability to reliably deliver strikes and reinforcements is crucial in developments, and the hit and run abilities of having in-system FTL technology are far more valuable than having Spess Marines.












MOST star wars ships are smaller than 40k , with the exception of 2, and of those 2 there are a rare few. What is the the point ftl if your ship gets blown to hell as soon as it exit.

And lets not forget armament each 40k ship is brimming with a large number of weapons, mean while sw ships consist of laser beams/pulses and torpedoes. 

Imperial navy admiral: "Ok Boys lets blow those basta-"
Imperial radar(or what ever) officer: "Er sir there's a mass of torpedoes, missiles, lasers, and ballistics come towards us.
Ok lets look at a boarding party, 
Storm troopers vs IG
Weapons about the same maybe sts have higher rof so (S= Ig rapid fire blaster assault 3) , Armor, well the STs die almost instantly when hit by a laser, mean while you can read about IG surviving a hit so ST 6+ IG 5+

Also IG outnumber STs

St vs SM
............blood......bath...ST lose 

OK ground battles

IG
LARGE number of tanks + artillery

ST
Large number of men, few tanks, but hey they are hovers, few artillery
Ok lets just assume they have a sith.
Well 



 , just go to 1 min in

ST vs IG
They will be reduced to a large crater in a few seconds, the sith wont be able to make it with in saber throwing range.

ST vs SM
....................OMGE..the humanity..

Air

IN
Their aircraft have missles and ballistics up the wazu

IN(SW)
They have lasers..................maybe bombs but that wouldn't help much in a dog fight.

IN vs IN (SW)
The IN(SW) will be blow out of the sky by IN

Air vs Ground

IG vs IN(SW)
Ok in empire at war a squadron (3) tie fighters get blow out the sky if there is just 1 aa emplacement with in range.....so yeah IG, the IN may kill a few IG with falling debris

ST vs IN
.....aa is rare and mobile aa is non existent...soooo IN wipes the ST's off the face of the planet and leaves neat little pot marks along with a bloody sea of bodies.


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## darkreever

Just cause I never really kept up with it, weren't there only two of those Star Wars ships (as in ever built)?

Also that chart merely compares Star Wars to Imperial vessels, it leaves out those of other races and space hulks (though admittedly a space hulk likely wouldn't fit in the image.)


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## Malus Darkblade

It's mind boggling how some people think SW would win.

WH40k has FTL travel (the warp) so I don't know why some people are saying it doesn't.

The largest SW ship in the picture locustgate provided is big but I doubt it's nearly as durable as the closest WH40k equivalent. It looks extremely flimsy in comparison.

The SW universe is like a rated G cartoon in comparison to WH40k. The latter has way too many things that make it infinitely more deadly (not even including the non-human races).


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## locustgate

darkreever said:


> Just cause I never really kept up with it, weren't there only two of those Star Wars ships (as in ever built)?
> 
> Also that chart merely compares Star Wars to Imperial vessels, it leaves out those of other races and space hulks (though admittedly a space hulk likely wouldn't fit in the image.)


1: No most of those ships were built, I've never seen the black one before but most are either in movies, games, comics, books.

2: It compares SW to imperial cause that's the only one I found.


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## bitsandkits

Star wars wins, death star trumps all those ships, as we all know you can only destroy a deathstar by either getting the plans via a R2 droid to deliver them or by bothan spies, neither of which the imperium have.

Plus Star Wars is owned by Disney and you dont fuck with the house of mouse!


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## locustgate

bitsandkits said:


> Star wars wins, death star trumps all those ships, as we all know you can only destroy a deathstar by either getting the plans via a R2 droid to deliver them or by bothan spies, neither of which the imperium have.
> 
> Plus Star Wars is owned by Disney and you dont fuck with the house of mouse!


That's perhaps the most likely cause, but lets just leave the deathstar out, cause there were 2 and both got blown to hell.


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## darkreever

locustgate said:


> 1: No most of those ships were built, I've never seen the black one before but most are either in movies, games, comics, books.


I actually meant the super star destroyer and sun destroyer (the two large ships if I remember the names right). I am fully aware that more of the other ships were made.


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## ntaw

How big is a Craftworld in comparison to the Death Star? Or a space hulk.

They've both been blown up by the Imperium.

The Death Star had ONE big gun. Tons of smaller guns, but only the one Ion Cannon that could blow up one target at a time with amazing efficiency (unless they were all lined up nice). How well did that work for the _Furious Abyss_? I haven't finished the book yet, but so far I have doubts it blows up Macragge. How much do 'Death Star' units get made fun of in our games and lists here on Heresy in lieu of more balanced and well thought out tactics?


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## locustgate

darkreever said:


> I actually meant the super star destroyer and sun destroyer (the two large ships if I remember the names right). I am fully aware that more of the other ships were made.


I believe the super destroyer there were more than one, wiki says "the *first* two" implying more than 2

There was only 1 annihilator and it was destroyed by pirates. Using a bigger version which was then destroyed, I didn't look up by what but, I would assume ewoks.


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## Doelago

I don`t see how the Imperium could possibly loose (apart from if we bring in the most ridiculous non-canon expanded universe bullshit). I have this picture in my head of a Librarian going against a Jedi, and the Libby just says "lol, u die" frying the Jedis brain to shit. 



locustgate said:


> I believe the super destroyer there were more than one, wiki says "the *first* two" implying more than 2







These things are impressively scary. Seriously, blow up the bridge (by crashing ONE light fighter into it) and the whole thing decides to crash itself into the closest moon sized object? Even the Imperium has more fail safes in place then that.


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## locustgate

Doelago said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_hGOFukMQ
> 
> These things are impressively scary. Seriously, blow up the bridge (by crashing ONE light fighter into it) and the whole thing decides to crash itself into the closest moon sized object? Even the Imperium has more fail safes in place then that.



Lol I forgot that.


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## Vaz

Moonschwine said:


> None.
> 
> I'd choose "Star Was" considerably.
> 
> Why? Star Wars have reliable Faster-Than-Light travel technology. The ability to reliably deliver strikes and reinforcements is crucial in developments, and the hit and run abilities of having in-system FTL technology are far more valuable than having Spess Marines.


He did say 40K, not Imperium. So, it's Star Wars, versus 40K. OH HARROW Mr Greater Daemon, looking mighty fucken' fine.

If it came down to it, I'd say pressure would be on the Star Wars factions; the greater numbers of the Imperium (especially at defending the most important locations), all that speed and superiority cannot help. For example, when it comes to a Landing on say Geonosis, how many were there? Should Space Marines become involved, there's teleporting assaults and Drop Pods.

. Jedi? Hard to judge exactly how strong a Jedi would be against a Psyker, but I'm not entirely sure a Jedi can open a wormhole to an ethereal nightmare plane.

I'm going to go off what my small knowledge of the Star Wars universe is; how would a Space Marine company and Strike Cruiser have faired on say Endor? Hoth? Or Geonosis, Naboo, etc? Coruscant is a little different as the battle did not start in a typical manner, IIRC. I think I might actually watch Episode 3 to remind myself. Replace Space Marine company with an Imperial Battlefleet or Explorator Fleet.

Compare that to say what would occur against the Cadian Gate, Armageddon, Macragge, or System Solar. While the most important lynchpins of such a thing in Star Wars were not exactly the most dangerous, I struggle to think of exactly how difficult it would have been for a typical planetary invasion force; whether that by Marines, Guardsmen, Tau, Eldar, or Orks in 40K to easily overwhelm the Star Wars forces (which IIRC have distinct scaling problems worse than the Space Marines).

Involve the Eldar, or Orks, or Daemons, and it just gets more fun for Star Wars.


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## Iniquity

I guess my opinion is biased by an in-depth knowledge of the Star Wars RPG produced by WEG. If I use 40K stats compared to ROT stats, having Imperial Guardsmen equal Stormtroopers stat wise, we get the following 40K stats for Star Wars.

Stormtroopers
WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld8, Sv 5+​Blaster - 18" Range, Str4, AP5, Assault 2​Heavy Blaster - 24" Range, Str5, AP4, Salvo 1/2​Heavy Repeating Blaster - 36" Range, Str7, AP2, Heavy 4, Crew 2​
Coynites(Wookiees would be similar)
WS5, BS4, S5, T5, W3, I5, A3, Ld10, Sv 4+​Stubborn, Hatred, Preferred Enemy, Honourbound - Can not sweeping advance​Battle Sword, Str+2, AP 2, Melee, Specialist Weapon​Heavy Blaster Pistol, 12" Range, Str5, AP4, Pistol​
Rancor
WS4, BS0, S8, T8, W6, I2, A5, Ld6, Sv 2+​Slow & Purposeful, Feel No Pain 4+, Swallow - To Wound Rolls of 6 inflict Instant Death​
Star Wars would actually have the numbers advantage, considering there are over 200 different playable Xenos races, with that majority having their own weapons, ships, and special abilities. 

_Note: The average Stormtrooper has 2D in each ability, which converts to 3 as a Guardsmen. The average Coynite has 5D in his combat abilities, which would have converted a lot higher, since they are, on average, over twice as strong as humans. I also weakened the range weapons, the average blaster is twice as strong as a Stormtrooper(4D vs 2D), but did a best guess on AP values, since armour adds extra dice to resist attacks. Stormtrooper Armour adds 2D physical/1D energy. Rancor's have natural armour(+3D/3D)._


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## Klomster

Regardless of what, you did a semi decent job here on the stats.

Why the blaster should have str 4 i don't know.

Anyway.

The problem here is that the 40k miniature game system is very limited in what stats things have.

1 to 10 isn't an overly big scale. And things gets squeezed into strange categories when half of it isn't available to most units.

Name four 40k units with strength 7 in close combat.

If you can, wow, amazing, i don't care. The point is it's rare.
So why did i rant about this?

Don't think these coynites is frikkin amazing just since they have str 5, all space marines (YES ALL OF 'EM) should also have this, it's just the miniature game who has failed to make space marines into space marines and made them some sort of overly armoured skitarii in tabletop terms.

And clones and stormtroopers are all fun and dandy.
But star wars lacks scale (so does 40k, but at least it's better)

Example:
A star destroyer, frikkin awesome mega starship of star wars can bring 50'000 ground troops. (IIRC)

Goody, 50'000 well equipped and armoured men. That's nice.
Let's say you bring 3 of these. Ooooh, 150'000 troops, with vehicles and stuff. Awesome.

Now you can barely suppress a revolting city. And that's a small-esque one. In sci-fi terms of course.

Look at the numbers in WW2, these forces are actually similar to those in terms of tactics and strategy. (Plus a few features, let's say there were helicopters in WW2.)

How much people did it take to take france? How many died in stalingrad? How many attacked germany?

WW2 earth is considerably smaller in terms of living people compared to normal sci-fi worlds.

Just think what those stormtroopers could do on modern day earth. Sure, the ships can do orbital strikes and stuff but they can never take over earth.
Impossible.

Now think modern day earth is armed with 40k stuff. That's an imperial world. Not hive world, just a regular smaller type world.

Now count how many of those the 40k imperium has.

Add in the other types of worlds.

Now we have a rough estimate of the imperium. Which could defeat star wars alone if it wasn't for the fact it is busy all the time.

Add orks. Tau (stroke tau btw, they are too wuss to mention anyway) eldar, TYRANIDS?
Yeah, have fun with the tyranids star wars.

I fail to see how star wars have the number advantage. 40k also has loads of species that is NEVER EVEN MENTIONED since they are so wuss.
There are hundreds, some even have empires. The most commonly known of these is Tau. And you know what Tau can do?

Plus, wtf is a coynite? Nevermind, i don't care. Let them chew on gaunts. They will have fun all day. Or at least the few hours they survive against the hive mind.

And ooh, rancors. 40k has carnosaurs. I think they are more devastating.
Failing that we can throw in a few catachan devils, those always cheer up.
Or barking toads. Mmmm, barking toads.

I know this argument isn't going to change anything. Just promise me one thing.

When you guys get to the star ships part.
Thunderbolt is not, IS NOT...... ABSOLOTELY IN THE WORLD NOT!!!!!!! The imperiums standard space superiority fighter.

It is called the fury interceptor. It's roughly as big as a thunderhawk, armed with about 10 lascannons or missile launchers and is fast.

And here's a picture.









Ok, it's only about 2 thunderbolts large, oh no. You need quite a few tie fighters to take that down. Just considering mass.

And that's not the bombers. Which are larger. And can wound imperial starships. 40k that is.

Plus, goody great, you brought 20 star destroyers. That's great. Sadly they are all smaller than cobra class destroyers. Whom have torpedoes that even 40k ships need to fear and can fire planet killer torps as well. You just need one per planet.

Cobras are the smallest fighting space craft they bother with, excluding fighters and other whatnot.

To a battle a 40k imperial fleet easily bring several squadrons of cobras and or other escorts. Several cruisers. Whom reach as far as 7 kilometres long. And often throw in a battleship or two just for proving a point.

This amount of ships is not even all ships in a sector fleet. 40k has a bunch of sectors.

40k has titans. Frikkin warlords!

An AT-AT woudn't stand a chance, the warlord could briskly walk over it destroying it with the impact of the void shield. Which wouldn't notably register the blow since it can shrug off and is designed to shrug of things like volcano cannons, mega meltas and other fun things.

And you might say -"Well, star wars just orbital strike the crap out of it."

No they don't, the starships are fighting for their lives against the 40k fleet. If they are even alive that is since they are so horribly outgunned.

And you bring the dreaded death star?

That's nice, let's see how it likes nova cannons. (Whom are standard armament on several of the cruiser types.)
The nova cannon fires a shell, which is time detonated and explodes when the timer reaches zero.
The resulting blast is the size of a MOON. Note that BFG game models are actually invisible compared to the planets on the board. That blast IS the size of a moon.

Oh, and 40k imperium at times even uses nova cannons on the ground.
In Ordinatus majoris siege engines. For fortifications that isn't suited for just normal basilisks, entire siege regiments or droves of baneblades or their variants.
Which of course are used anyway since 40k has troops and machines to spare.

I dunno. Star wars is cool and all but in a straight up fight. 40k wins.
Star wars lacks this imprinted zealousness for ones cause, that unfaltering madness of mind that makes the forces of the grim dark future to never waver in their cause. Individuals might, but the whole does not.

Rant over.

And remember. Thunderbolt is not a space fighter. Fury intereceptors are the only imperial fighters in space.
Lightnings and thunderbolts are ground support only. They are not even space capable.


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## Iniquity

I'll see your Catachan Devil or Barking Toad and raise you a Duinuogwuin (Star Dragon).

Coynites are a honour bound martial race that could be played by players.

I'll concede the ground battle to 40k, but space superiority would belongs to Star Wars. Not overly one sided, but they would win eventually. A single Star Destroyer could institute Base-Delta-Zero in leave in a matter of minutes on any planet. Alternatively, a few well placed Gravity Wells would instantly destroy any number of reinforcements coming. 

The Imperial Fleet(during Palpatine's reign) had 25,000+ Star Destroyers (mix of ISD I-III) - 72-96 fighters, 50 walkers each; Millions of support craft, and a few Super Star Destroyers(a couple with Super Lasers), plus a Death Star. The Hapan Armada was only slightly less numerous, and a Hapan Battle Dragon was just under an ISD I in effectiveness. Add in the Emperor's Force Storm, the ability to transfer his life to any of his clones, the martial prowess of the Sovereign Guard, etc. 

Also, Space Marines would not be as strong as Coynites or Wookiees, and Star Wars weapons are much more deadly stat-wise than their 40k counterparts. The weakest blaster, a hold-out blaster would technically be the equivalent of a boltgun. In my stats above, a hold-out blaster equals a lasgun. So technically, I'm nerfing Star Wars weapons a fair amount, and they are still more deadly. As for melee, a basic knife in Star Wars would be Str+1, where vibro-axes and swords would be either Str x2 or +3-4 with a AP2-3 and not unwieldy. Lightsabers would be a whole complicated mess, Jedi or not, how powerful, etc.

Honestly, both sides could argue back and forth all day long. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Considering they are 2 completely different game systems, neither with a very deep scientific root, it will never be more than opinions. Jedi this, librarian that, Space Marine, Noghri, etc.


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## spanner94ezekiel

Iniquity said:


> I'll concede the ground battle to 40k, but space superiority would belongs to Star Wars. Not overly one sided, but they would win eventually. A single Star Destroyer could institute Base-Delta-Zero in leave in a matter of minutes on any planet. Alternatively, a few well placed Gravity Wells would instantly destroy any number of reinforcements coming.


And Void Lances don't do a similar/better job than Gravity Wells?



Iniquity said:


> The Imperial Fleet(during Palpatine's reign) had 25,000+ Star Destroyers (mix of ISD I-III) - 72-96 fighters, 50 walkers each; Millions of support craft, and a few Super Star Destroyers(a couple with Super Lasers), plus a Death Star. The Hapan Armada was only slightly less numerous, and a Hapan Battle Dragon was just under an ISD I in effectiveness. Add in the Emperor's Force Storm, the ability to transfer his life to any of his clones, the martial prowess of the Sovereign Guard, etc.


I think you're missing the point. It's not just the Imperium that's being talked about here. You have to take into consideration entire Hive Fleets, Tomb Fleets, Eldar Craftworld, Webway Incursions, Ork Flotillas as well. I hate to break it but 25,000 Star Destroyers aren't going to cut it. Compare them say, to an Astartes Strike Cruiser - each chapter has about 5 (?) of these, and there are over 1000 chapters. Factor in the equivalent Chaos ships, and then the Inquisition, and you're looking at around 10,000 equivalent ships already. Then you've got every other faction with their own ships. 
The Death Star? Sounds remarkably similar to that Necron World Engine, that was far superior to the Death Star in terms of armament, defences and technology, but that was taken out (granted at great sacrifice). The Death Star pales in comparison.



Iniquity said:


> Also, Space Marines would not be as strong as Coynites or Wookiees, and Star Wars weapons are much more deadly stat-wise than their 40k counterparts. The weakest blaster, a hold-out blaster would technically be the equivalent of a boltgun. In my stats above, a hold-out blaster equals a lasgun. So technically, I'm nerfing Star Wars weapons a fair amount, and they are still more deadly. As for melee, a basic knife in Star Wars would be Str+1, where vibro-axes and swords would be either Str x2 or +3-4 with a AP2-3 and not unwieldy. Lightsabers would be a whole complicated mess, Jedi or not, how powerful, etc.


I'm sorry, a blaster compares to a Boltgun? Not only are blasters sub-sonic laser blasts, they can barely penetrate Storm Trooper armour, let alone Power Armour. Bolters fire mass-reactive, self-propelled mini-missiles, designed to explode _after_ they penetrate their target. That would make a mess out of any Storm Trooper. A lasgun is a far more accurate comparison. You cannot argue "Star Wars weapons are more deadly", because it's simply not true. There are clearly examples where they're both on the same level, but when you have races like the Necron and the Eldar who have tech most Mandalorians can't even dream of, then you start to see the issue. I mean, the Tyranids are evolved killing organisms for Christ's sake - a lightsaber or thousand's not going to stop a Hive Fleet.

A Wookie may have the basic strength of an Astartes, but where's their Power Armour? That counts their brute strength for nothing when they can just have an arm torn off by a chainsword. More to the point, there are a limited number of such species. I realise there are "only" ~1,000,000 loyalist Astartes, and about the same (or more) Chaos Marines, but that easily accounts for Wookies. Not to mention said Astartes are bred for battle, are better equipped and are psycho-indoctrinated to eliminate the feeling of fear. Not to mention some of them are psykers, and Chaos marines are potentially mutated too.
And if you want to bring Jedi into it, they not only have to compete with millions upon millions of psykers who have force-like abilities, but also opponents who have much greater martial skills than them.



Iniquity said:


> Honestly, both sides could argue back and forth all day long. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Considering they are 2 completely different game systems, neither with a very deep scientific root, it will never be more than opinions. Jedi this, librarian that, Space Marine, Noghri, etc.


I will say this again, but more clearly this time.

SCALE

The Star Wars galaxy is tiny compared to 40k. 

As Klomster mentioned, a fleet of Star Destroyers carries approximately 150,000 troops. That's what? One Guard Regiment? The Imperium alone commands _trillions_ of soldiers. Then you have the Orks, who are even more numerable. And the same for Tyranids. Then the elitist forces outnumber the Jedi/Sith considerably too, such as Grey Knights, Daemons, Eldar etc etc. The Star Wars universe doesn't begin to compare based on sheer numbers alone. Sure, you have your uber-awesome ultra pwnage guys like Planet Killer, and 40k has equal fanboyism with regards to Draigo etc, but at the end of the day scale wins it. That and the fact that every race in the 40k universe is designed only for war. They know nothing else. The Star Wars galaxy doesn't have the same situation, and could not compete simply because it is not designed to.

Oh and grim darkness of the far future > a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.


/fanboy out.


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## Protoss119

This thread.


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## Magpie_Oz

Klomster said:


> Name four 40k units with strength 7 in close combat.


TH Terminators.
NDH Grey Knights.
The C'tan
Bloodthirster
Any S4 mini with a power fist.
Dreadnaughts with DCCW
Dreadknight with Doom Fist
Wraithlord

etc .........


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## 12ebootX797

protoss119, Awesome just awsome.


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## MontytheMighty

Calistrasza said:


> As soon as Jedi are involved all hope for 40k flies out the window


Uh...no





































Jango Fett beats several of them to death with *a rock and his bare hands*. The Jedi attacking him are all armed with lightsabres and try to swarm him (hardly honourable). Imagine if that were a fully armed and armoured Astartes instead of Jango. 

Jedi are also massacred by Clone Troopers during Order 66:


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## Iniquity

I only named two of the races/groups that have space faring fleets. There are numerous more that could be included. I'm not discussing comics, books, etc. This is actual in game statistics, not the crap from the movies or whatnot. 

40K:
Guardsmen
Strength and Toughness 3

Astartes
Strength and Toughness 4 (In Power Armour)

Lasgun/Boltgun/Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon/Plasma/Krak Missile/Lascannon
Strength 3/4/5/6/7/8/9

Star Wars:
Stormtrooper(average human pcs would be 3D)
Strength 2D (covers both)

Wookiees/Coynites/Gamorreans(the list could go on and on)
Strength 5D

Hold-Out Blaster/Blaster/Heavy Blaster/Heavy Blaster Rifle/E-Web Repeating Blaster
Strength 3D/4D/5D/6D/8D

Combat Knife/Vibro-Axe/Force-Axe
Strength+1D/Strength+3D+1/Strength+4D

The only valid point that scale brings is that the 40k universe is more widely known. If needed, I can search through all my old SW:RPG books and start listing everything Star Wars has available, but frankly I don't think anyone will have a change of opinion.


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## Iniquity

Couple fun facts for Star Wars:
The 'Known Galaxy' included millions of member systems and countless more colonies, protectorates, and governorships. This is just what the Empire controlled. This included over 100 million stars in an area of space over 100,000 light years: much of it unexplored and unknown. There are millions more of worlds that aren't on logs that are nonetheless inhabited. 

The number of alien civilizations in the 'Known Galaxy' is staggering, just a list of alien species would fill scores of datascreens. Consider the diversity of human cultures, languages, and perspectives...and remember that alien species are just as varied.

A few populations:
Bespin(Cloud City's planet): 6 Billion
Coruscant: 650 Billion(Palpatine's reign), 1 Trillion(Old Republic)
Tatooine: ~80,000

The following is a list of regions within the 'Known Galaxy':
Core Worlds(among the most densely populated)
The Colonies(very heavily populated)
Inner Rim Planets(very heavily populated prior to Palpatine, major population drain during final years of Imperial rule)
Expansion Region(heavy industry)
Mid-Rim(vast tracts remain unexplored)
Centrality(pleasure palaces and vacation resorts)
Corporate Sector(tens of thousands of stars, produces metals and technologies)
Deep Core(densely packed stars)
Hapan Cluster(63 worlds, extremely militant, lagging behind in technology)
Hutt Space
Outer Rim Territories(immense area, last bastion of civilization - Tatooine is here)
Wild Space(the fringe of the 'Known Galaxy')
Unknown Regions(everything further on)

Each of the above regions were divided into numerous sectors. Imperial fleets would be assigned to sectors.

Wookiees can enter a 'Berzerkers Rage' and have large, retractable climbing claws. Using them in combat is dishonorable and will result in other members of the species hunting them.

Travelling directly from Dagobah to Lianna takes 31 days 15 hours at x1 hyperdrive. Dagobah to Dantooine is only 1d8h, and Dantooine to Lianna is 19h. Knowing the trade routes and not following the direct route can sometimes be quicker.

The ISD I only carried 9,700 troops, the amount required for a garrison and Stormtrooper division. The cargo holds could carry 36,000 metric tons.


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## locustgate

Iniquity said:


> I'll see your Catachan Devil or Barking Toad and raise you a Duinuogwuin (Star Dragon).
> 
> Coynites are a honour bound martial race that could be played by players.
> 
> I'll concede the ground battle to 40k, but space superiority would belongs to Star Wars. Not overly one sided, but they would win eventually. A single Star Destroyer could institute Base-Delta-Zero in leave in a matter of minutes on any planet. Alternatively, a few well placed Gravity Wells would instantly destroy any number of reinforcements coming.
> 
> The Imperial Fleet(during Palpatine's reign) had 25,000+ Star Destroyers (mix of ISD I-III) - 72-96 fighters, 50 walkers each; Millions of support craft, and a few Super Star Destroyers(a couple with Super Lasers), plus a Death Star. The Hapan Armada was only slightly less numerous, and a Hapan Battle Dragon was just under an ISD I in effectiveness. Add in the Emperor's Force Storm, the ability to transfer his life to any of his clones, the martial prowess of the Sovereign Guard, etc.


Gasp! You mean an entire empire had 25k star destroyers, om, I would be willing to bet a single sector out numbers that by 25k^shitload.

You can't really be sure IF SW weapons are more powerful than 40k, you are going on the assumption that the STs armor is equal to IG, ok lets look at Endor, the [email protected]#@ers got killed with arrows, @##@$ing ARROWS, I'd say they have SV of 6+, the only seemingly useful part of the armor is that it's self contained, you don't need spec gear to survive in hostile env. So you can assume their weapons ap is 6, and well lets just look at IG their armor, which is one of the worst 'armor', I mean actual made armor not natural or cobbled together bits of metal. Vs any 40k spec you can just completly ignore SVs when it comes to ranged combat.


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## Vaz

Iniquity said:


> I only named two of the races/groups that have space faring fleets. There are numerous more that could be included. I'm not discussing comics, books, etc. This is actual in game statistics, not the crap from the movies or whatnot.
> 
> 40K:
> Guardsmen
> Strength and Toughness 3
> 
> Astartes
> Strength and Toughness 4 (In Power Armour)
> 
> Lasgun/Boltgun/Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon/Plasma/Krak Missile/Lascannon
> Strength 3/4/5/6/7/8/9
> 
> Star Wars:
> Stormtrooper(average human pcs would be 3D)
> Strength 2D (covers both)
> 
> Wookiees/Coynites/Gamorreans(the list could go on and on)
> Strength 5D
> 
> Hold-Out Blaster/Blaster/Heavy Blaster/Heavy Blaster Rifle/E-Web Repeating Blaster
> Strength 3D/4D/5D/6D/8D
> 
> Combat Knife/Vibro-Axe/Force-Axe
> Strength+1D/Strength+3D+1/Strength+4D
> 
> The only valid point that scale brings is that the 40k universe is more widely known. If needed, I can search through all my old SW:RPG books and start listing everything Star Wars has available, but frankly I don't think anyone will have a change of opinion.


When bringing stats into the equation, remember that Flyers can travel 36" in 1 turn, ahich IIRC is about 6 seconds, so 6" a second. A marine is about 8ft tall and 1.5 inches high, so 32 ft is around 6". So, Flyers therefore that means that flyers move at 20,000ft an hour, or in other words, 6km/hour.

Gf stats.

Invalid comparison.


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## Iniquity

Stormtroopers called killed with arrows, but my guardsman killed a pair of terminators in close combat once. I guess they don't have a 2+ save after all. I mean, he was a regular guard, they were terminators with big shiny shields and massive hammers. If a regular human can do that, I don't think it is farfetched to think Stormtroopers failed a few Svs against arrows. It would most likely be 5+ armour. I would say Ewok Arrows don't have an AP value.

Bespin mined Tibanna Gas, the primary component in the manufacturer of power cells, 'ammo' for blasters, the basis of all ranged weaponry. The population was 6 billion. This was a 'small' enough outpost, that the Empire wasn't concerned with them. 

25,000 _Imperator/I]-class Star Destroyers. That doesn't include Victory-class SDs, Venator-class SDs, Dreadnought-class Heavy Cruisers, Interdictor-class Cruisers, Nebulon-B Frigates, Bulk Cruisers, Space Defense Platforms, Strike Cruisers, Gunships, Battlecruisers, Light Cruisers, or Corvettes. All of those were easier to build, and in many cases, much more common to find. 

You mean an entire game of 40K only lasts 10-14 seconds in real time, and people can walk 32' in one second while reliably shooting their targets. 

I think people are biasing their Star Wars opinions off the movies. Most moderately powerful Dark Jedi could reliably wipe out a Space Marine chapter, including its Librarians, with only a little prep work. The Emperor(Star Wars) could destroy Terra and the majority of its defense network from across the galaxy while sipping his iced tea from a recliner.

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. It allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of Force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

Use of this power requires the focusing of hate and anger to an almost palpable degree and there is considerable danger. Some are able to create Force storms, but fail at harnessing what they have foolishly unleashed. Often, those who fail to control the storm are themselves consumed and destroyed. If the Force-user is destroyed the storm dissipates within minutes.

When a Jedi attempts to create a Force storm, he must determine the diameter and the amount of damage (the damage dice are capital scale). If the Jedi fails any of the rolls, the storm is summoned with the desired damage, but it attempts to consume the summoner._


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## spanner94ezekiel

I have three points to make:
1. You can't keep switching between tabletop and fluff. Pick one and stick to it - the parallels don't work if you try to establish facts by comparing tabletop to reality. Otherwise Astartes clearly wouldn't fit into their Rhinos.
2. The movies are the most canon thing for Star Wars, as it is what the entire setting is based on. Everything else came later - thus you can't blame people for basing their opinion on the films, as at least on a non-SW forum, that's all people have seen.
3.


Iniquity said:


> I think people are biasing their Star Wars opinions off the movies. Most moderately powerful Dark Jedi could reliably wipe out a Space Marine chapter, including its Librarians, with only a little prep work. The Emperor(Star Wars) could destroy Terra and the majority of its defense network from across the galaxy while sipping his iced tea from a recliner.
> 
> This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. It allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of Force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.
> 
> Use of this power requires the focusing of hate and anger to an almost palpable degree and there is considerable danger. Some are able to create Force storms, but fail at harnessing what they have foolishly unleashed. Often, those who fail to control the storm are themselves consumed and destroyed. If the Force-user is destroyed the storm dissipates within minutes.
> 
> When a Jedi attempts to create a Force storm, he must determine the diameter and the amount of damage (the damage dice are capital scale). If the Jedi fails any of the rolls, the storm is summoned with the desired damage, but it attempts to consume the summoner.


Now we are just getting into the faintly ridiculous. Both universes have their own retardedly OP characters and descriptions that vary depending on author etc. To counter this fantastical claim (once again, you're restricting your argument to the Imperium), how would said uber-Sith counter for example, the Chaos Gods? How would they even cope with the Warp? For every nugget of OP gold you pull out of the SW universe, there is an equally OP one in the 40K universe. The Chaos Gods can create Warp Storms at a whim, and we haven't even seen a glimpse of their true power in the material universe yet as they're too concerned with the Great Game. If they decided to fight in this hypothetical war against the Force, who knows what they could do?

Please don't pull the one-sided argument. I get it - both sides has fanboys (myself included). It doesn't strengthen your argument to a) ignore whole factors of the opposition, and b) just pull out the "we have OP shit so we win" card. I understand that you may think the same of me and others with the whole ignoring things, but that's simply because we _don't know_ the entire Star Wars fluff, whereas I'm pretty sure you have a decent grasp of the 40k universe.


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## locustgate

Iniquity said:


> Stormtroopers called killed with arrows, but my guardsman killed a pair of terminators in close combat once. I guess they don't have a 2+ save after all. I mean, he was a regular guard, they were terminators with big shiny shields and massive hammers. If a regular human can do that, I don't think it is farfetched to think Stormtroopers failed a few Svs against arrows. It would most likely be 5+ armour. I would say Ewok Arrows don't have an AP value.


Ok a few thinks terminator armor as ****** and it gets weak, it's not like a few STs got killed by arrows it was an entire planets worth and by that logic ST's save is SV -


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## maelstrom48

Light sabers and blasters cauterize wounds, whereas bolters pierce armor and detonate inside you, and power fists make your light saber technique laughably irrelevant.

AT-ATs are comically bad (judging by Hoth anyway because I don't read Star Wars books) and an assault marine squad could just melta its feet, underside and back--Skywalker style, minus the lightsaber.

AT-STs... Dreadnoughts do it better. 

Do I even have to explain Ewoks?

But Star Wars _does_ have Han Solo...

So with that in mind, 40K wins. Barely.


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## Iniquity

Spanner, my apologies. I've been a long time player of the Star Wars RPG, and am a fanboy. I've played the Dark Jedi in an RPG club that just what I described. I eventually retired him because it was to over powered in the setting, but my character operated in an area that did not have a lot of Jedi. I could count on one hand the Jedi throughout the whole club that were more powerful. But it does work both ways. Librarians instantly killing every Jedi they see. Boltguns being uberly more lethal. Star Wars armour being crappy because some mini bears killed cannon fodder wearing some. As you said, both sides are guilty of it. 

Being a Chaos player, I don't know how the Gods would react. A part of me thinks Tzeentch would instantly offer Palpatine Daemonic Ascension, considering his proficiency in scheming and plotting. Of course, that would be like booning Abaddon into a Daemon Prince.

You did hit the metaphorical nail on the head though. I know a fair amount of 40K, but a whole lot of Star Wars. Even with the super Jedi powers, the majority couldn't sustain their use through a campaign. Star Wars would lose the ground fight, I've said it before. There are not enough Jedi to outlast the 40K on the ground, and I know of nothing to combat the Titans. Space would eventually belong to Star Wars, though, and once that happened, the ground battle would no longer matter. Base-Delta-Zero = Exterminatus. Reliable FTL travel. Instant communication across the galaxy. The ability to destroy entire fleets at a time coming for reinforcements. I believe Star Wars has the edge in manufacturing power. If 40K didn't destroy key installations, Star Wars would out produce them. One killed Space Marine that they got their hands on...

Purpose is the biggest difference. Star Wars is set in the 'Known Galaxy' and is primarily the Empire or one of the Republics. I imagine that had the Emperor of Man not fallen during the Heresy, the two might be much more similar. Both Emperor's don't particularly like aliens/xenos and have no problem wiping them out. Instead, 40K is ravaged by open war, where Star Wars isn't.


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## ntaw

As far as the space superiority thing goes...we're even comparing two different versions of FTL travel.

Is SW invading 40k? If so, how do they deal with travel in the warp? Do their lightspeed drives still work in a universe that coincides with the warp?

If 40k is invading SW, how the hell can they even go FTL _without_ the warp or astronomicon?

How the hell does any of this even make sense? How do we know, since Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, that they aren't.....THE SAME EMPEROR?!?!?!

Plot twist.


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## spanner94ezekiel

Iniquity said:


> Spanner, my apologies.


No need. 



Iniquity said:


> I've been a long time player of the Star Wars RPG, and am a fanboy. I've played the Dark Jedi in an RPG club that just what I described. I eventually retired him because it was to over powered in the setting, but my character operated in an area that did not have a lot of Jedi. I could count on one hand the Jedi throughout the whole club that were more powerful. But it does work both ways. Librarians instantly killing every Jedi they see. Boltguns being uberly more lethal. Star Wars armour being crappy because some mini bears killed cannon fodder wearing some. As you said, both sides are guilty of it.


 Precisely. Damn these versus debates - they bring out the worst.



Iniquity said:


> Being a Chaos player, I don't know how the Gods would react. A part of me thinks Tzeentch would instantly offer Palpatine Daemonic Ascension, considering his proficiency in scheming and plotting. Of course, that would be like booning Abaddon into a Daemon Prince.


I suppose that's again part of the discussion. Does Star Wars have any god-like entities that compare to the Chaos Gods? Or for that matter the C'Tan at the height of their powers? Or the Eldar gods before the fall? 



Iniquity said:


> You did hit the metaphorical nail on the head though. I know a fair amount of 40K, but a whole lot of Star Wars. Even with the super Jedi powers, the majority couldn't sustain their use through a campaign. Star Wars would lose the ground fight, I've said it before. There are not enough Jedi to outlast the 40K on the ground, and I know of nothing to combat the Titans. Space would eventually belong to Star Wars, though, and once that happened, the ground battle would no longer matter. Base-Delta-Zero = Exterminatus. Reliable FTL travel. Instant communication across the galaxy. The ability to destroy entire fleets at a time coming for reinforcements. I believe Star Wars has the edge in manufacturing power. If 40K didn't destroy key installations, Star Wars would out produce them. One killed Space Marine that they got their hands on...


I'm still not sold on the space superiority thing, but I guess we have to look at what ntaw said with the whole setting. If it was in the 40k universe then the Star Wars fleets would be torn apart by warp storms and Daemon incursions. However if it were the inverse, then there would be no access to warp travel etc, which bones all 40k races except pretty much Tau.



Iniquity said:


> Purpose is the biggest difference. Star Wars is set in the 'Known Galaxy' and is primarily the Empire or one of the Republics. I imagine that had the Emperor of Man not fallen during the Heresy, the two might be much more similar. Both Emperor's don't particularly like aliens/xenos and have no problem wiping them out. Instead, 40K is ravaged by open war, where Star Wars isn't.


Indeed. I think the whole galaxy constantly at war factor in 40k does give it that edge in the sense that there are always worlds to recruit from (or Hive Fleets to spawn from etc), whereas much of the Star Wars galaxy depends upon clone production. Also, I saw you mention that minor world consisting of ~6bn (and that was a small world). Compare that to Cadia - 850,000,000 (lexicanum). And that's one planet. I still think 40k surpasses on scale.


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## Protoss119

ntaw said:


> How do we know, since Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, that they aren't.....THE SAME EMPEROR?!?!?!
> 
> Plot twist.


*PALPATINE WAS THE GOD-EMPEROR ALL ALONG!*

Also, I will continue to insist:



Protoss119 said:


> This thread.


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## Iniquity

No Gods in Star Wars. If going off stats, 16D in a skill is considered 'among the best in the galaxy' and you hardly ever encountered someone with one skill at that level, save a select few. The Emperor had 18-19D in his Force abilities(Control, Sense, and Alter). A few Sith had similar skills, but are either trapped on a specific planet or bound to a holocron. So maybe c'Tan like, but shards, not the old star devouring type.

Star Wars doesn't travel through the warp in FTL, but they would never have been there, so months at the soonest and years at the latest for scouts(a playable class) couldn't out safe routes. 

6 Billion population mining an essential resource was too small for the Empire to care about. Coruscant had a population in excess of 1 Trillion before the Empire. Did you mean 850 Million for Cadia? 40K might edge it out, but Star Wars is fairly large sized, and the Core Region planets probably rival Hive cities.

The clones were for a fast, fearless army, much like the Space Marines. Not that tough, but the fearless, follow orders, get the job done. The majority of Stormtroopers are recruited from the Imperial Army. Strict height and appearance standards, then heavily indoctrinated/brainwashed. I'm unsure if it is lack of faith, but Palpatine doesn't use clones anymore, and armed forces are recruited/conscripted. The clone facilities do exist though, and I would give Star Wars the edge in technology. 

Stormtrooper
3 3 3 3 1 3 1 9 Sv (5+ physical/6+ energy) Blaster Str3/AP6 Heavy Blaster Str4/AP5
- The armour is better at resisting physical damage, so close combat and non-las/Plasma.
- MFTAS: Always add +1 to their roll when firing ranged weapons.

Spanner, you have your Marvel projects, would you mind lending me your expertise if I did the same with Star Wars?


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## spanner94ezekiel

Of course I'd be able to lend a hand. My knowledge beyond the films might not be great (I play The Old Republic if that counts for anything :laugh: ), but in terms of game mechanics and unit creation I'd be happy to help.

Also, my bad on the population of Cadia - I was looking for a Hive World.

"There are approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium" - Lexicanum. Scrolling down that page, it would appear the average population of a Hive World is around the 80 billion mark.


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## Iniquity

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Of course I'd be able to lend a hand. My knowledge beyond the films might not be great (I play The Old Republic if that counts for anything :laugh: ), but in terms of game mechanics and unit creation I'd be happy to help.
> 
> Also, my bad on the population of Cadia - I was looking for a Hive World.
> 
> "There are approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium" - Lexicanum. Scrolling down that page, it would appear the average population of a Hive World is around the 80 billion mark.


A quick search returned about 22 sectors in the Core Worlds. Originally sectors were divided with 50 planets supporting life, but that was an aged division and many sectors quickly outgrew the system. I might be a little off on this(not referencing sketchbook, getting ready to head to an 1850 tournament). I imagine 'Hive Worlds' would match to the Inner Rim Region more closely. 40k has much more, readily available documentation, but I imagine the two are much closer in scale, with 40k most likely edging out. 32k Hive Worlds is a lot, and Core Worlds probably convert 10:1 on average. Assuming ~75 inhabited planets to a sector, the Core is roughly equivalent to 15-17k Hive Worlds on ~1600ish planets. Inner Rim would be much closer, but not as many inhabited planets, but overall I'm guessing twice the population in 40k over roughly the same amount of space. Maybe.

I'll pm you later with some ideas. I'm figuring Stormtroopers should be fairly equal to Guardsmen as a basis.

On another note, if anyone is interested in playing a Star Wars PbP in the other forum, I could throw one together.


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## Romanov77

I am quite confident that wh4k would win by far. 

They got so much manpower that they could kill the sw galaxy by dropping naked men from orbit. 

Technology...let's say they could be considered even, but I'm biased for the wh4k. 
Deathstar? I say Phalanx and win.


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## Reaper45

My biggest issue is the that EU for SW has to be used. Otherwise it just appears that jango was an idiot for attacking a jedi. But according to the EU he did it because it killed jedi before.

Whose to say that imperium warp drives would have to be used. The tau do have access to gravity drive tech things. The ones that generate a singularity in front of the ship and pulls it towards it. 

The Necrons have teleportation tech. (not the webway stuff)


So yeah no side wins easily.


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## heretical by nature

well considering storm troopers cant aim for shit, id say 40k


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## locustgate

Seems wobbly model has been listening.


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## piemelke

once the ewoks face the nids, they will call in the help of the borg, they blow everything to smithereens,


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## ntaw

piemelke said:


> they will call in the help of the borg


Whoa whoa whoa there. Let's not bring Star Trek into this. 

It would just be unfair to the federation.


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## bobahoff

Does this thread make anyone else think of how awesome it would be to see Darth Vader vs Mephiston, vader would get massacred but it would be cool none the less


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## ntaw

Vader has no chance against Mephiston. Just....none.


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## piemelke

Vader or any Jedi for that matter would get smashed by even a simple psyker, a librarian would end Vader, 
still borg versus nids versus necrons would be rather cool


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## g00dd0ct0r

HAHAHAHAHa Vader destroyed hahahahaha a being madepurely of the force, he would jedi trick Mephiston like a biatch


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## Romanov77

All Vader could do was dodging, chocking people, flinging stuff around, fart some lighting and influence lesser beings. 

We have random untrained psykers mindraping whole cities, exploding people, detonating titans and calling godlike beings from the warp. 

Mephiston would crush Vader like a soft drink can without even looking.


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## locustgate

Something better to see would be luke vs the emperor, living. Some of Luke's force abilities seem very Emperor like.

I.e. disguise himself, guide all jedies towards him, crush an at-at, take a solar storm worth of lightning, destroy an entire battalion of droids with a flick of a finger, he nudged all their motors.


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## kiro the avenger!

40k would butt rape star wars for one reason
Astartes
A naked astartes is strong enough to shatter bone with bones the strength of steel. Their ribcage is just one solid plate, their is no way a blaster round is getting through that, it can barley chip snow. Astartes can even spit poison and their lahraman(spelling?) cells can seal up any wounds they get in seconds. An they will never give up until the emporer takes them.
And in battle plate their strength is multiplied ten-fold, they can punch heads from bodies (impossible as the skull will fracture before the neck, but hey) and they can punch there way into battle tanks and even buckle power armour There power armour alone is emensly strong, it can survive a bolter round head on without failing and is stronger than a main line battle tank. There suit is also a all in one survival suit, it has even more life saving systems with stimulants and water recycling and air filtration. They arn't any less manuaverable either as they still have full range of movement and are incredibly quick- quicker than a human even with super human reaction times. And dont forget terminator armour, armed to the teeth with weaponary, this thing is ni on invincible and can carry a variety of wargear such as the stormbolter- a bolter on steroids, need I say more? And the big, bad power fist, or the super smack down thunder hammer with the storm sheild- you ain't gonna hurt that! Ar they twin lighning claws, just if you fancy dice stormtrooper for tea  and with an inbuilt shield generator, it can even survive the inner core of a plasma generator- I would like to see a blaster beat that!
And fully armed just makes it worse, the bolter- there standard weapon is mass reactive- if that thing hits you, your gonna know about it as it leaves a foot ball sized hole with plenty of shrapnel. And it's self propelled to, meaning almost no recoil and has massive range and is highly accurate with barley any drop off.they come in pistol form to, a lethal ass weapon in a bitesize shell. And the heavy bolter, a massive, belt fed, rapid fire version which is really gonna hurt in the morning! And the astartes also use a meriade of special weapons, such as the plasma weapons- these fire balls of super heated gas which fry any thing they come into contact with, no amount of armour can supress that, not even power armour, let alone plastic costumes! And the lascannon, capable of blowing entire tanks to hell and back, along with the missile launcher, which is capable if firing a variety of shells such as the frag missile, which is easily gonna eviscerate entire squads of storm troopers since frikking arrows have no problem!
And the combat war gear isn't much better! There combat knife, which every marine has, is as large a mans arm and, when swung by an astartes will have no problem bring a man down, let alone a wookie. And the chain sword- ripped by gears of war for ovious reasons, that is one big, bad mother f*%#*er, it can rip apart limbs and people like it's baking a cake. And it makes a manly *roar* noise as it does so, adding to it's manly awesomeness. Power weapons too, cracking with a disruptive energy field, light sabers can go crying to their mummy, these bitches will cut apart even the thickest plate just by looking at it funny. Power fists will bitch slap those tanks can around all over the place, so what'll it do to a wimpy storm trooper then? And the thunder hammer, even Thor gets jealous when they break this thing, it conserves all it's charge until impact, when it let's it out, creating a big splat of ex-storm trooper as the energy fields bursts free! Along with the lightning claws, a big, badass fist with four long blades, all crackling in a disruptive energy field, no ones gonna want to end up on the wrong side if that!
And the ground vehicles just add to the equation! Let's start with the biggest first- the land raider- it's under water capable for a start! With armour think enough to survive a lascannon blast and with multiple variants, all with a massive carry capacity and immensely powerful primary, and secondary weaponary. And the predator brings plenty more fire power to the show with two different variants for blowing apart tanks and mowing down infantry. The vindicator isnt much better with it's huge upfront gun, capable of blowing a apart entire bunkers in a single hit with a huge siege shield for shunting piles of rubble and mangled corpses out of it's way. And the whirlwind can rain down death from afar and from relative safety whilst the rugged and robust rhino shuttles around the ground troops.
The space war also favors the astartes, as their fleets consists of a variety of different vessels ranging from the heavily armed and armoured battle barge- many times the size of a star destroyer and brisling with gun batteries. It also has power full shields protecting it which star wars ships lack. And it contains hundreds, if not thousands of battle brothers willing to fight and die. Also present are lighter strike cruisers, then frigates and other escorts such as cobra gunships, these are proberly about the equal of a star destroyer with more protection ( I'm pretty a small fighter plane hitting the bridge wont destroy that thing) and more guns ( it's all guns really, not just a few tires here and there). Astartes can even do teleport attacks and launch boarding torpedoes, something the star wars crew will be complete unprepared for and will easily raped in such a manner.
If Ive anything out, I'm sorry, but astartes are complete ornate and the table top is just plain rude with the execution of their gaming stats, but hey
Star wars has no chance at all


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

:suicide:


----------



## ntaw

^ That almost sounded like GW took the form of a post to promote their Space Marine range.


----------



## kiro the avenger!

Sorry, I just really love the astartes


----------



## ntaw

Now, forgive me as I'm not willing to read all this stuff....but has anyone addressed that 40k has the ability to teleport people and SW doesn't (seem to, I haven't read a lot of the books)? 

*electric fizzle*

Terminator company on the bridge of any Death Star, Star Destroyer...whatever.


----------



## Ring Master "Honka"

ok titan vs at - at. 
they are taken out by some rope for crying out loud even orks arnt that daft. 

but what if we look at it this way what would stop the sith from just joining up with the forces of chaos?.


----------



## bitsandkits

ntaw said:


> Now, forgive me as I'm not willing to read all this stuff....but has anyone addressed that 40k has the ability to teleport people and SW doesn't (seem to, I haven't read a lot of the books)?
> 
> *electric fizzle*
> 
> Terminator company on the bridge of any Death Star, Star Destroyer...whatever.


all force choked out by DV in 10 seconds ...whatever


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> all force choked out by DV in 10 seconds ...whatever


Grey Knight Librarian Denies the Witch while the GKTDA squad throws a Psykout Grenade and the Culexus' Animus Speculum lights DV up like a photon torpedo

...........

whateverrrrrrr


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

I think it would be interesting to see how the Tyranid Hive Fleets would evolve to defeat Star Wars forces. Perhaps some 'force-dampening' Zoanthropes or the like?


----------



## bitsandkits

Magpie_Oz said:


> Grey Knight Librarian Denies the Witch while the GKTDA squad throws a Psykout Grenade and the Culexus' Animus Speculum lights DV up like a photon torpedo
> 
> ...........
> 
> whateverrrrrrr


nonsense, Vader has the force as his ally and a powerfull ally it is, force beats all....whatever


----------



## locustgate

bitsandkits said:


> all force choked out by DV in 10 seconds ...whatever


I would agree but SM can go for a long as time without air, they would be able to shoot at him before one would die. Force choke is force CHOKE, not force break neck.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

bitsandkits said:


> nonsense, Vader has the force as his ally and a powerfull ally it is, force beats all....whatever


hmmmm, DV uses force, Evil Star Wars emp uses force. 

40k Emp IS the force ...... whatev's


----------



## bitsandkits

Magpie_Oz said:


> hmmmm, DV uses force, Evil Star Wars emp uses force.
> 
> 40k Emp IS the force ...... whatev's


40k Emp cant even wipe his own arse, Vader has a cloak mofo's , cloaks = win...Whatev's x2


----------



## locustgate

bitsandkits said:


> 40k Emp cant even wipe his own arse, Vader has a cloak mofo's , cloaks = win...Whatev's x2


Just to get to the 40k Emperor you have to climb up a giant ass pyramid inside a fucking fortress. Both Vader and the emperor would start wheezing by the time they got a fourth of the way and collapse if they can get close.


----------



## bitsandkits

locustgate said:


> Just to get to the 40k Emperor you have to climb up a giant ass pyramid inside a fucking fortress. Both Vader and the emperor would start wheezing by the time they got a fourth of the way and collapse if they can get close.


They wouldnt even bother going to get his wrinkly old ass, hes older than Yodas ball sack and has less life in him, everyone knows hes already dead but nobody dare say it because the =I= dip you in napalm and roast marshmallows on your butt cheeks, Besides Vader could just force pull mars out of orbit and crash it on the 40k emps pyramid giving him a right imperial head ache,all while wearing a cloak and looking bad ass.


----------



## locustgate

bitsandkits said:


> They wouldnt even bother going to get his wrinkly old ass, hes older than Yodas ball sack and has less life in him, everyone knows hes already dead but nobody dare say it because the =I= dip you in napalm and roast marshmallows on your butt cheeks, Besides Vader could just force pull mars out of orbit and crash it on the 40k emps pyramid giving him a right imperial head ache,all while wearing a cloak and looking bad ass.


You're thinking of Luke vader was never that strong.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

What if all the SM's and IG got cloaks?


----------



## nevynxxx

Titans. 40k wins because of Titans, and the ability to actually use them. 

Nothing in Sar Wars has the firepower that even mundane stuff in 40k has.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Titans with cloaks!


----------



## Protoss119

normtheunsavoury said:


> Titans with cloaks!


Tactical genius?


----------



## Reaper45

protoss119 said:


> tactical genius?


"creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed"


----------



## ntaw

This just in: the Dark Angles just became the coolest chapter due to their cloaks.

...and look at the effort Vader put in to force chocking ONE Grand Moff, the time! Jeeze.


----------



## MidnightSun

Ominous black cloaks? Motherfucking *Malcador*.










Fuck your Sidious.

Midnight


----------



## locustgate

MidnightSun said:


> Ominous black cloaks? Motherfucking *Malcador*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck your Sidious.
> 
> Midnight


Is it just me or does the cables make anyone think of a cloaked cathulu


----------



## emporershand89

I would go Star Wars any day blokes, where's you sense of American Pride. Classic American cinema, and nerd/dork paradise 

But being factual I feel Star Wars would win. After having a 3 month long argument with my buddy over whether Star Trek or Star Wars was superior we came to the conclusion that Star Wars would win. 

First off the Jedi are like the modern psyker. the difference is they control there power, and are not preyed upon by magical daemons. Sure some are good and some are evil, but they are relatively "stable" compared to the magical warriors of the 40k universe.

Secondly Star Wars ships would rape in navel combat. Star War ships are much more maneuverable than Navel combat vessels of 40k. Additionally they use advance Gas(or Plasma) based weapons that are much more refined and fire at a faster rate than those of there 40k counter-parts. Finally the Imperium still uses kinetic weapons? I don't think I saw a ship in Star Wars that used that......Tibian Gas anyone? The Death Star......besides a Hive Fleet devouring a planet I have yet to find a "Planet Destroying" weapon that even compares to it. Now there are "Planet Killing" weapons like virus bombs and Equarteral Guns but nothing to blow a planet to dust.

However on my final point I feel 40k trumps Star Wars in ground warfare. Most Star Wars warfare is much like our modern warefare of today. Squad/Platoon based tactics used in small unit skirmish warfare. Specialized units for ever task. Warhammer is pure, outright, and total warefare. They would smash them, similar to World War I.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

emporershand89 said:


> The Death Star......besides a Hive Fleet devouring a planet I have yet to find a "Planet Destroying" weapon that even compares to it. Now there are "Planet Killing" weapons like virus bombs and Equarteral Guns but nothing to blow a planet to dust.


Three words: Necron World Engine.


----------



## joebauerek

40k for a number of reasons

Imperium:

Will just throw endless numbers of troops into the grinder whilst mechanised forces whilst not as advanced will win by sheer numbers. (plus guardsmen can aim which is a plus) Squad vs a thousand men? Who cares if we loose 500 men we win. Its all about persistence and scale 40k have both and weve seen how the Empire suffers from war weariness. 

Imperial Navy will just will by sheer volume of fire. And you have one deathstar? We have hundreds of thousands of exterminatus weapons we win.

Inquisition well lets face it who knows what these guys have.

Space Marines can aim and shoot! Plus in close quarters Star Wars doesnt stand a chance. In space if guns dont work will resort to ramming then space wars is close combat nuff' said.

Librarians vs Jedi - Librarians win since they have more constant power. Plus with enough firepower then jedi die weve seen it happen enough times.

Mechanicum...Titans win all. Titans vs AT-AT just isnt fair... titan vs 10 AT-AT is like taking a toy from a baby.


Orks well theyll just steam roller everything. Plus they will just loot everything.

Necrons just dont die so what makes Star Wars an exemption.

Tyrannids will just adapt and have endless numbers so eat it jedi. Or should i say jedi for breakfast 

Eldar more maneuverable and weapons are more advanced.

Dark Eldar are sadistic versions of Eldar

Chaos will spread everywhere so what will protect the Empire since they have no warp protection or inquisition to protect them.

Sisters of Battle... the empire will not know whats hit them.

Then Daemons wow those Storm Troopers will not know what happend since they have zero ways of killing them there only "human" after all.

Now advantages for starwars... they have the force which is comparable at best to a librarian. Reliable faster than light travel means nothing when weight of fire at the other end will destroy them when they get there....

So in short 40k wins emphatically


----------



## joebauerek

Oh as for Tau there just... I dunno how theyd fare since i know little about them.... theyd long range them to death?


----------



## darkreever

emporershand89 said:


> The Death Star......besides a Hive Fleet devouring a planet I have yet to find a "Planet Destroying" weapon that even compares to it. Now there are "Planet Killing" weapons like virus bombs and Equarteral Guns but nothing to blow a planet to dust.


The planet killer and the Talismans of Vaul (blackstone fortresses.)

In fact, when three of the fortresses were combined they destroyed a star, killing off an entire system.


----------



## arlins

emperor to luke skywalker 

" i have a legion of my finest stormtroopers already on the moon " 

fast forward 3 hrs andtheyve all been killed by rock weilding fricking teddy bears .

whilst i havezero interest in these kind of debates , how anyone can claim that the inept
standard trooper that is the emperors finest can beat anyone but jawas is beyond me .
Ohh and cmon big multi gazzilion credit planet killer and no one thinks to protect its 
only vulnerable spot , hardly geniuses


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yeah I'd like to see an X-Wing try and take out _Planet Killer_. 

Plus the Death Star may just end the planet in one shot of complete finality. But a virus bomb/cyclonic torpedo combo is going to be so much more horrifying and with the same eventual result. Just any survivors monitoring the surface will be able to tell their commanders how they watched the Imperium liquify the inhabitants, set the atmosphere on fire and then destroy the planet by cracking it's crust open, destabalising its core and causing it to explode from the inside out. And countless fleets are capable of this action. Have fun with that Star Wars.

As for Jedi. Say hello to delta/gamme level psykers. Never mind Beta or Alpha levels, though granted they're absurdly rare and mostly insane. Still would be fun to just drop one off on the wherever the Jedi homeworld is or the Star Wars timeline that invades.


----------



## xxJoshxx

If we go by current timelines for both universes, 40k wins in a landslide. There are probably less Jedi than I have fingers, no droid army, Storm Troopers all got blewd ups, and hell, their next best weapon in the works is Bambi with a helmet. The only real fighting force left for them is the Rebellion that got fucked up by the Orb and Death.

On the other hand, the Imperium could just send in a Billion Cadians and have Coruscant in under 6 hours. Send in the Space Wolves and have half the galaxy in a day. Or just piggy back a few Ork rocks through the warp and let the boyz have some fun on the punny ummies.


----------



## emporershand89

joebauerek said:


> Will just throw endless numbers of troops into the grinder whilst mechanized forces whilst not as advanced will win by sheer numbers.


The movie "Attack of the Clones," and the TV series The Clone Wars saw the rows of endless robots and Driodeka's assault the Republic. the Clones still won because of ther superior tactics, skill, and equipment. Additionally the Galactic Empire industrial and technological holdings dwarf even the Imperium of Man's mighty strength; which wanes ever passing year. 



joebauerek said:


> (plus guardsmen can aim which is a plus)


So can the Clones and StormTroopers.....invalid point.



joebauerek said:


> Imperial Navy will just will by sheer volume of fire. And you have one deathstar? We have hundreds of thousands of exterminatus weapons we win.


The Republic/Galactic Empire's fleets are staggering compared to the Imperium. Should I not mention that Warp travel leads to ships being destroyed, off target, arriving years behind schedule, and daemon manifestation? 

Hyperdrive tech ensure that Star Destroyers and Han Solo's Falcon arrive on time and in the same spot as they targetted. Therefore Star Wars galaxy possesses speed. Speed of communication, speed of navies. Tyranids appear to be confined to the more slower forms of FTL space travel typical of the 40K universe. This allows the Star Wars Navies to pick and choose their time and place of engagement, and complete autonomy to retreat where necessary and engage in guerilla-style harassment. This is an absolutely HUGE advantage, when you're talking about a hive fleet that progresses slowly along a relatively defined path. It is such a huge advantage, that I think the naval battles are really no contest. Which, in space, is a pretty big component. The Yuzzhan Vong, Star War's version of the Nids, cut such a swathe into the Star Wars galaxy because they were able to take, hold and move on with such speed that they'd essentially taken over half the galaxy in about 2-3 years from initial contact. The hive fleets, by comparison, have taken roughly the same amount of time (at varying points in history of course), to penetrate a single spiral arm of a much smaller galaxy.

Imagine the Tyanids invading after the Battle of Hoth. Remember that these creatures are hampered by far, far inferior FTL to that of th GFFA. Remember that while they cast a "warp shadow" isolating Milky Way comms, the GFFA uses both a holonet network and individual transmitters that can be crammed into star fighters. One X-Wing fighter has more tech than a Emporer Class Battleship. 

The Galactic Empire has superior FTL, superior comms, superior organization, and superior industry to the Milky Way powers. The Tyranids don't stand a chance.

I'm not going to even quote your list but honestly most of those Armies, especially the human ones, could be crushed under Sta Wars far superior tech. I mean the Republic can heal it's men, 40k soldiers are more like World War I; prone to die after mere flesh wound (Monty Python Anyone?  )

The Necrons and Daemons may give them a run for there money. That being said I'm sure the Jedi and Sith could find there weakness and destroy them with the Force. 



darkreever said:


> The planet killer and the Talismans of Vaul (blackstone fortresses.)


Never heard of it. I'll look into it. Despite that I feel the Death Sta could just pop in and out with FTL tech before 40k fleets could counter it. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Say hello to delta/gamme level psykers. Never mind Beta or Alpha levels, though granted they're absurdly rare and mostly insane.


the Jedi have more control of themselves. They would probably kill him before he even used his "magical" powers. Sheesh, invalid.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Has nothing in this thread been read? It has been explicitly mentioned time and again that it is useless speculating in this way if you're not providing the exact circumstances and situation of this conflict. If this was in the 40k galaxy then Star Wars wouldn't stand a chance due to warp storms interfering with their tech etc, while in the SW galaxy, 40k wouldn't be able to draw from/travel through the warp.

Pointless arguing like this is just fanboy dick-waving, to put it simply and crudely.


----------



## emporershand89

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Pointless arguing like this is just fanboy dick-waving, to put it simply and crudely.


Well thats why nerds love it, it's an never ending argument  Ok we give up, a truce then until the next time someone posts this :laugh:


----------



## Protoss119

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Has nothing in this thread been read? It has been explicitly mentioned time and again that it is useless speculating in this way if you're not providing the exact circumstances and situation of this conflict. If this was in the 40k galaxy then Star Wars wouldn't stand a chance due to warp storms interfering with their tech etc, while in the SW galaxy, 40k wouldn't be able to draw from/travel through the warp.
> 
> Pointless arguing like this is just fanboy dick-waving, to put it simply and crudely.





Protoss119 said:


> This thread.


----------



## joebauerek

Ok i know i go fanboy on 40k but i am also a star wars fan so ill put a little bit more reasoning

As for size or industrial base there is no comparison so you carnt say star wars has either they just say galaxy so its impossible to say.. both have millions of worlds beyond that you cannot say....

Only very basic units in 40k do mass world war one style offensives and as for rows and rows of clones (they quote 50,000 units will soon be ready which isnt even a dent of the imperiums potential and im guessing unit is anything from regiment to division real size not 40k) the cloning facilities were destroyed (in one of the wider universe comics i do believe) so that is no longer viable option so clones is a moot point. Kreig still uses cloning (well sort of) so advantage imperium. A las gun is comparable to a blaster so the tech point is moot as well all weapons are comparable and just because they dont hover or have a laser doesnt make a difference they can still kill with ease.

As for the aim it was supposed to be a joke but it has some validity as in episode 6 on endor the aim just seems awful.

The imperial navy (SW is quoted in having 25,000 star destroyers) so imperium holds numbers (battlefleet solar has hundreds of thousands of ships and there is at least 5 battlefleets named so yeah...) as for tech the imperium of man will just ram them out of the sky... yes deaths will be a plenty. But really star destroyer vs strike cruiser i think the strike cruiser has an advantage since it could have massive chunks ripped out of it and still keep going whilst all thats needed for a star destroyer to go down is for the bridge to be destroyed (we've seen it happen). As for firepower hard to say so call that a tie. Your right on faster than light travel but the imperium is like that all ready and do fine (all things considered) so point moot. 

Tyrannids dont need to travel faster than light they just absorb everything in there way... x-wing lasers they adapt... star destroyers they adapt... death star they adapt if anything their slowness and persistance is what makes them such a threat and yes as you said Vong are like tyrannids in some respects but comparing them is like saying a bullet is like an arrow both very different but can still kill.

As for your comment crushing the necrons and daemons its equally possible (and far more likely imo) for them to defeat the jedi. Just remember daemons drive people insane and that what librarians are for thus jedi have no experience which could be their downfall. Plus i recon that a jedi is the equivilant of a gamma (?) level psyker. Whilst weve seen that a jedi could pull a star ship out of the sky i could imagine beta level psykers doing the same thing (after all they can throw titans around like rag dolls) then mention of the emporor makes jedi looks like ticks. But for sake of balance there even then the numbers of the imperium pays off. 

As for the death star a bunch of hyperactive kids destroyed it so an imperial armarda wouldnt have much difficulty i do believe.... that or just use nova cannons till there enough holes in it to make it into swiss cheese.



emporershand89 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by spanner94ezekiel
> Pointless arguing like this is just fanboy dick-waving, to put it simply and crudely.
> Well thats why nerds love it, it's an never ending argument  Ok we give up, a truce then until the next time someone posts this


This is very true so we shall have to agree to disagree..


----------



## Angel of Blood

emporershand89 said:


> the Jedi have more control of themselves. They would probably kill him before he even used his "magical" powers. Sheesh, invalid.


This is a horrendously naive statement. You've clearly not read any 40k novels which involve psykers of these levels or higher.


----------



## Angel of Blood

emporershand89 said:


> Additionally the Galactic Empire industrial and technological holdings dwarf even the Imperium of Man's mighty strength; which wanes ever passing year.
> 
> The Republic/Galactic Empire's fleets are staggering compared to the Imperium.


What exactly are you basing this comparison on, how do you even know the sizes of both sides fleets? Even if the Star Wars ones have been published, the Imperiums certainly haven't. Nor has the amount of worlds the Imperium controls and how many of them are industrial or not. Again, how have you come to this conclusion?



emporershand89 said:


> I mean the Republic can heal it's men, 40k soldiers are more like World War I; prone to die after mere flesh wound (Monty Python Anyone?  )


I'm not sure if this one is meant to be a joke or not. Just read Gaunts Ghosts for instance to see that the Guard are very capable of healing wounded soldiers who have been horrifically injured, even just a small and often poorly supplied regiments like the Tanith 1st.




emporershand89 said:


> The Necrons and Daemons may give them a run for there money. That being said I'm sure the Jedi and Sith could find there weakness and destroy them with the Force.


Just how exactly are the Jedi/Sith going to beat the forces of Chaos? Please, just try and give an example of how they could possibly overcome the inevitability of chaos. Which also raises the question, how do you know the Jedi and any other inhabitant of the Star Wars 'verse would be immune to the temptations and/or possession of Chaos? There really isn't any way to answer that with any certainty tbh.




emporershand89 said:


> Never heard of it. I'll look into it. Despite that I feel the Death Sta could just pop in and out with FTL tech before 40k fleets could counter it.


The Death Star can only be in one place at a time. The Imperium could send countless fleets to countless systems and carry out Exterminatus on all of them. Once again, they don't need to destroy a planet in one blast to kill it. As I said, the Virus Bomb/Lance Strike/Cyclonic Torpedo combo will end any planet without fail.


----------



## joebauerek

Oh as for looking after and healing injuries have you not heard of Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken... hes been patched back together from some seriously nasty injuries...


----------



## Phoebus

I don't really want to get into this topic, but I'd like to point out that - given the negative impact emotional instability can have on them - the forces of Chaos would have a field day with Jedi or Sith.


----------



## Cowbellicus

The canonical response to this matchup is this:

- Star Wars has an insurmountable advantage due to FTL. Crossing the entire galaxy takes a couple days, tops. For 40k, this takes years. Even if 40k had a numerical ship advantage (and that's debatable) the movement ability completely nullifies this. To make this even worse, due to their technological backwardness, 40k cannot hope to reverse engineer a hyperdrive to achieve parity.

- If it comes to any kind of planetary engagement, 40k wins in a total landslide without even breathing hard. 

- Therefore, the crux of the whole matchup is one question : Are we restricted to dumb 40k tactics? Instead of bombarding a random planetary citadel to dust from orbit, are we required send in 10,000,000 guardsmen to physically take it. If the answer is _no_, then the space advantage Star Wars has cannot be overcome. They simply move from planet to planet, avoiding all fleet engagements and orbitally bombard any ground military assets.

All other details don't matter in the face of that kooky FTL advantage. If this inevitable outcome angers you, fear not, just imagine Star Wars up against the Culture for a bit of revenge  .


----------



## emporershand89

Cowbellicus said:


> just imagine Star Wars up against the Culture for a bit of revenge


Nice

Protoss 119 did you draw that comic. I cannot help but laugh my ass of at it. so true


----------



## Protoss119

emporershand89 said:


> Protoss 119 did you draw that comic. I cannot help but laugh my ass of at it. so true


I didn't draw it, but I did add the caption to the 'cron. I can't find the original image or meme though, so I had to make due.


----------



## Kettu

@Cowbellicus;
Imperium Navy ships take a year approximate for an South East-North West galactic crossing, rim to rim (Often said to be the longest trip any Imperial ship would take). Marines are half that (6 months), old fluff for the Sisters said it was half that again (3 months) and GK are a month approx. On top of that to navigate all you need is a navigator and one known fixed point (Astronomican, for example). Failing that, you can 'skim' the warp without need for special shields, psykers or a fixed point (This, however, will triple the journey time. This what the Tau do mostly).
The Galactic Empire has, yes, a speed advantage but this requires up to date star-charts and maps of hyperspace lanes; logistics that took thousands of years to make and do not cover the Milky Way. This will drastically slow down the fleet movement. 
You also missed that the Imperium is rather willing to just indiscriminately blow stuff up and do so with a casual disregard, all the time you play a game or read them fighting the battle of Shaggy Dog for the planet Who-Gives-A-Toss it's been specifically for an objective that cannot just be nuked from orbit. (Or it could be and it was just a shitty writer.) 
To further add to this, the Imperium has done lots of reverse engineering, a major component of their R&D is entirely reverse engineering. 

If you like I can go into further details later.


----------



## Deadeye776

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>First, the idea that Jedi have complete control over themselves is bullshit. The first 3 Star Wars episodes proved that with Anakin Skywalker basically destroying the Jedi order as he fell to the Dark side. And it's not a fluke either. The same thing happened in the Knights of the Old Republic with Revan falling as well. If they are susceptible to the Dark Side, they can be susceptible to A LOT more that 40k has to offer. The faster than light travel is an edge in transportation. However, in actual combat the combined forces of the Empire and Rebellion would be slaughtered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>While it would be a good match between the Imperial Guard and the troops of Star Wars it would end when the special mission units became involved. While both have assassins and people with special abilities the Astartes would end the conflict. The Jedi in no way have the numbers to handle the Legions and I'm just talking loyalist here to be fair. With both grunt soldiers and navy's engaged that would leave the Adeptus Astartes vs the Jedi? At most you've got 2 powerful sith to add. Besides the genetically engineered bodies and minds, you also have extremely powerful pyskers and mutants (Blood Angles and Space Wolves) among the ranks that increase the already lethal capabilities. Faster than light travel would be useful in hit and run tactics for a time, but in the end even Horus knew as does Abbaddon that to be the Imperium will require you to confront the full breath of it's forces. The entire 40k universe is completely militarized in every facet. The lack of tech for traveling is meant to make it so they have at least one liability with their massive militaries. Star Wars and 40k are two completely different genre's. Star Wars is a sci-fi fantasy universe where 40k is a nightmare military science fiction in the same vein as Star Ship troopers.


----------



## Lord Commander Solus

40k Exterminatus takes a while. On the other hand, Death Star...


----------



## locustgate

Lord Commander Solus said:


> 40k Exterminatus takes a while. On the other hand, Death Star...


Why Emperor can't you let this thing die..ok the Death Star are only 2 space stations, both stations are slow, (galaxy at war games) they have one structural weakness that no one ever bothers to fix, 1 and 3 of original star wars. They are MASSIVE, you would have to be blind deaf and have the iq of a rock to miss. Mean while 40k exterminatus, one ship no matter what its size can destroy all life on a planet or destroy the planet, depending on what type of death you want. Sooo which do you think would be better one in which a fleet can jump out fires a couple of missiles then another one burn a planet to ash and jump in or one which a moon sized station moves SLOWLY into position charges up and fires then SLOWLY leaves.


----------



## Lord Commander Solus

Whilst that may well be true for the majority of cases, consider the minority; ie planets with anti-missile defence systems, or with energy fields. "Conventional" exterminatus would be useless, whereas as the Death Star, albeit once it has got itself there in the first place, would be unhindered. If Horus had had the Death Star above Terra, he could have completely obliterated it in a heartbeat. Similarly, an invading Empire could destroy all of the Imperium's most important worlds without any costly land invasion, whereas Exterminatus would otherwise be unfeasible. Don't you agree?


----------



## Jezlad

Imperator Titan vs AT-AT


----------



## DeathJester921

Yeah, i'd like to see an AT-AT stand up against ANY titan


----------



## locustgate

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Whilst that may well be true for the majority of cases, consider the minority; ie planets with anti-missile defence systems, or with energy fields. "Conventional" exterminatus would be useless, whereas as the Death Star, albeit once it has got itself there in the first place, would be unhindered. If Horus had had the Death Star above Terra, he could have completely obliterated it in a heartbeat. Similarly, an invading Empire could destroy all of the Imperium's most important worlds without any costly land invasion, whereas Exterminatus would otherwise be unfeasible. Don't you agree?


Never read of an exterminatus not being carried out do to defenses. Most exterminatus weapons release just inside the atmosphere, so if they do get detected by anti missile weapons then they are just in range right when they blow up, or release or what ever their means of death, i.e. virus bombs Atmospheric Incinerator Torpedo. The number of worlds destroyed by the Imperium is massive while the number of worlds destroyed by the Empire is...1, Alderaan.

P.S. there were 3 deaths stars the last 2 were destroyed before completion and 3 was destroyed before it was even close to half way finished.


----------



## joebauerek

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Whilst that may well be true for the majority of cases, consider the minority; ie planets with anti-missile defence systems, or with energy fields. "Conventional" exterminatus would be useless, whereas as the Death Star, albeit once it has got itself there in the first place, would be unhindered. If Horus had had the Death Star above Terra, he could have completely obliterated it in a heartbeat. Similarly, an invading Empire could destroy all of the Imperium's most important worlds without any costly land invasion, whereas Exterminatus would otherwise be unfeasible. Don't you agree?


Just FYI Horus could have used an exterminatus on Terra BUT he wanted to take Terra not destroy it... and any sort of shield would be useless against an eterminatus because when the ground under the shield turns to molten rock the shield does jack all. But yes the empire could destroy planets unhindered once the deathstar was in position one at a time whilst the imperium could be destroying a hundred planets at a time. Also weren't both death stars destroyed rendering that point moot.....


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## Lord Commander Solus

Well yes, the Death Stars were destroyed, but it would be a bit of an unfair challenge to send the Star Wars universe to war against the Imperium minus one of their most powerful assets. It would be like sending the World Eaters without Angron.

And whilst there may or may not be any established fluff on missile-defences denying an Exterminatus, that doesn't mean it _couldn't_ happen. As for the weapons being released inside the atmosphere, unless the ship itself is there too (which surely would be rather difficult), then it has to travel to get there; ie past the defences. I take your point that once the Imperium fleet is above the planet, there's a good chance Exterminatus is going to happen, but surely the same can be said of the Death Star?

Second, you mention how the Death Stars were destroyed before being able to blow up many planets. This is true, and I accept it. But can't the same be said for an Imperium fleet? What has suddenly made every Exterminatus-capable vessel immune to destruction prior to bombardment, whilst simultaneously dooming the Death Star to never reach position? Either the Imperium ships don't have to enter the atmosphere to Exterminate, and therefore can reasonably break through a spaceside resistance but also allows for anti-missile defences, or they do need to reach atmosphere, which would bypass anti-missile defence but make facing down an enemy fleet necessary first. You can't have it both ways. 

As a side-point, the Death Star's weaponry can also be used in fleet combat, to which there is no counter; it can target the finest and most powerful Battle Barge in your fleet and destroy it utterly, wiping out the command structure in an instant. The Death Star can also be used to Exterminate planets without atmosphere, where the Life-Eater would be unsuitable.

I'm not trying to make you abandon your entrenched 40k standpoint, and I have taken note and accepted many of the arguments for that standpoint. However it seems you are not capable of similar compromise, so I shan't trouble you any longer in this thread.


----------



## locustgate

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Well yes, the Death Stars were destroyed, but it would be a bit of an unfair challenge to send the Star Wars universe to war against the Imperium minus one of their most powerful assets. It would be like sending the World Eaters without Angron.
> 
> And whilst there may or may not be any established fluff on missile-defences denying an Exterminatus, that doesn't mean it _couldn't_ happen. As for the weapons being released inside the atmosphere, unless the ship itself is there too (which surely would be rather difficult), then it has to travel to get there; ie past the defences. I take your point that once the Imperium fleet is above the planet, there's a good chance Exterminatus is going to happen, but surely the same can be said of the Death Star?
> 
> Second, you mention how the Death Stars were destroyed before being able to blow up many planets. This is true, and I accept it. But can't the same be said for an Imperium fleet? What has suddenly made every Exterminatus-capable vessel immune to destruction prior to bombardment, whilst simultaneously dooming the Death Star to never reach position? Either the Imperium ships don't have to enter the atmosphere to Exterminate, and therefore can reasonably break through a spaceside resistance but also allows for anti-missile defences, or they do need to reach atmosphere, which would bypass anti-missile defence but make facing down an enemy fleet necessary first. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> As a side-point, the Death Star's weaponry can also be used in fleet combat, to which there is no counter; it can target the finest and most powerful Battle Barge in your fleet and destroy it utterly, wiping out the command structure in an instant. The Death Star can also be used to Exterminate planets without atmosphere, where the Life-Eater would be unsuitable.
> 
> I'm not trying to make you abandon your entrenched 40k standpoint, and I have taken note and accepted many of the arguments for that standpoint. However it seems you are not capable of similar compromise, so I shan't trouble you any longer in this thread.


No offense but it seems you knowledge of 40k planet killing is....very limited, there are far more ways for the Imperium to kill a planet than virus bombing, virus bombing is by far the oldest form, and probably most talked about, but by far the most common in 40k is the cyclonic torpedo, which takes many forms, some just burns the atmosphere off of a planet while others crack a planet open. When you compare 40k and SW planet killing methods sw's method is more like a hammer and 40k is a swiss army knife.

If you want to talk about destroying the vessal that carries the destruction of planet then lets me just say this, which is easier to hit a semi or a bike? The Death star is HUGE, 160-900 Km, while in comparisons the 40k ships are tiny,1.5-something less than 160km.

About fleet vs death star, I doubt the death star is going to win unless the 40k fleet just lines up in a straight line and says shoot me. I'd be willing to bet an imperial ship would ram into the firing dish of the death star, the only reason why they didn't do that in SW was because they valued human life.

I love both SWs and 40k but lets be honest SW is filled with hope while 40k is death in a myriad forms. If I ever wanted a planet killed I'd turn to 40k if I want a planet killed in a flashy way I'd turn to SW.


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## emporershand89

*And??*



locustgate said:


> If you want to talk about destroying the vessal that carries the destruction of planet then lets me just say this, which is easier to hit a semi or a bike? The Death star is HUGE, 160-900 Km, while in comparisons the 40k ships are tiny,1.5-something less than 160km


Yes locustgate, and??? Let me introduce to you a victim of the Death Star II, which was a very combat capable super weapon with much more advanced targeting systems than it's predecessor. 

Mon Calamari MC-80 Star Battle Cruiser








You all may know this bad boy from Star Wars VI: Return of the Jedi. This was one of 5 such ships present at the battle of Endor, one of which was Admiral Ackbar's personal command ship. With enough firepower to rival a Class II Star Destroyer they were the backstay of the Rebel forces. The ship is roughly 1,800, or 1.8km long, 48 Turbolasers, 20ish Ion Cannons with 6 Tractor Beams; a total crew of roughly 5,000 with 400 of them being gunners. As you locustgate stated yourself.....



> while in comparisons the 40k ships are tiny,1.5


So that we all understand according to locustgate, a average Warhammer 40k ship is therefore about the same size as your standard Battleships in Star Wars universe. Now please look that the following clip. Skip to 1:30(I couldn't find a more specific clip).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0R_wy2p9yU

That is a Mon Calamari M-80 Star being destroyed point blank by the Death Star. The same ship, as we concluded, that is the same size as a 40k ship. Therefore locustgate I once and for all want to dispel your notions the Death Star is just a huge, round laser wielding planet destroyer. On the contrary, move aside the SW plot lines and it could have raped half the galaxy.

Additionally you say....



> About fleet vs death star, I doubt the death star is going to win unless the 40k fleet just lines up in a straight line and says shoot me.


As stated in the SW cannon lore, the Death Star is the size of a small moon. I doubt a fleet of ships could survive even if they zipped around the darn thing. Earlier in Return of the Jedi we have seen 3 Star Destroyers enter the Death Star, 3!!! That must be some big hanger, don't cha thank 




locustgate said:


> there are far more ways for the Imperium to kill a planet than virus bombing,


Good sir I challenge you on that fact. Beyond Cyclonic torpedoes, which you do mention after this quote, they have no other "planet-killing weapons" at there disposal until we start talking about psyker powers and the denizens of the warp. Even this is counter by the all xenophobic actions the Imperium almost predictably takes; and therefore would never stoop to such means.

Additionally I would like to point out the Death Star destroyers planets utterly, while in Warhammer 40k races must commit huge resource to "killing a planet." Virus bombs, cyclonic, they don't really "destroy" and planet as much as they "kill" it. Even the Hive Mind wipes bare a world, but does not eat the entire planet. The Death Star, with one shot, can reduce a planet to a few mere asteroids(as we saw in Star Wars IV).

Finally to both of you I feel the fight would be won in space with the superior technology of Star Wars rather than which novelty fiction has the bigger, badder play toy of ultimate death.


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## ntaw

^ I ate two slices of pizza reading that.


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## emporershand89

nice


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## darkreever

emporershand89 said:


> So that we all understand according to locustgate, a average Warhammer 40k ship is therefore about the same size as your standard Battleships in Star Wars universe. Now please look that the following clip.


Unfortunately for you, this is not correct. Vessels which fall under the escort catagory (things like frigates or destroyers) range from ~1.4-1.9km in length. The mainstay of most fleets in 40k are the capitol ships, cruisers and the like. Those tend to be about 5km in length.



emporershand89 said:


> Good sir I challenge you on that fact. Beyond Cyclonic torpedoes, which you do mention after this quote, they have no other "planet-killing weapons" at there disposal until we start talking about psyker powers and the denizens of the warp.


Virus bombs, atmospheric incinerators, and two-stage torpedoes (which share some similarities with cyclonic torpedoes.)

So yes, yes they do.

Going beyond the Imperium, the traitor legions have the planet killer (of which more than one was built) and several blackstone fortresses (two could destroy a planet, three made a star supernova.)



emporershand89 said:


> Virus bombs, cyclonic, they don't really "destroy" and planet as much as they "kill" it.


Imagine if you did just a bit of actual research on some of the things you spew forth. Those two stage torpedoes I mentioned before, yeah those are the things that burrow deep within planets, detonate, destabilize said planets core and make the thing destroy itself utterly. No scouring of life from said planet, complete destruction.


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## Cruxyh

emporershand89 said:


> Finally to both of you I feel the fight would be won in space with the superior technology of Star Wars rather than which novelty fiction has the bigger, badder play toy of ultimate death.


What I find interesting is how you are not taking the likes of the Necrons into this equation. Especially when it is obvious that the Necrons have technology that far surpasses anything the Imperium or, for example, the Tau would have.

On a side note: are we assuming that IG-88 is not uploaded into the core of the Deathstar? And what would prevent an Inquisitor and his acolytes from boarding the Deathstar? ID-cards and a registration system?


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## joebauerek

emporershand89 said:


> The ship is roughly 1,800, or 1.8km long, 48 Turbolasers, 20ish Ion Cannons with 6 Tractor Beams; a total crew of roughly 5,000 with 400 of them being gunners


Thats less than an armament and crew for an escort and smaller too.....




emporershand89 said:


> Quote:
> while in comparisons the 40k ships are tiny,1.5
> So that we all understand according to locustgate, a average Warhammer 40k ship is therefore about the same size as your standard Battleships in Star Wars universe. Now please look that the following clip. Skip to 1:30(I couldn't find a more specific clip).


Theres some records of some imperium battleships going upto 10km.... but as said the average size is around 5-6km long



emporershand89 said:


> As stated in the SW cannon lore, the Death Star is the size of a small moon. I doubt a fleet of ships could survive even if they zipped around the darn thing. Earlier in Return of the Jedi we have seen 3 Star Destroyers enter the Death Star, 3!!! That must be some big hanger, don't cha thank


Yes It may be able to destroy single ships at a time.... but takes time to recharge allowing the distance to be closed making the targeting of them near impossible. As for the drydocks imagine Mars with the docking stations they would have.



Cruxyh said:


> On a side note: are we assuming that IG-88 is not uploaded into the core of the Deathstar? And what would prevent an Inquisitor and his acolytes from boarding the Deathstar? ID-cards and a registration system?


Imagine a space wolves boarding party or even better mass ork invasion...... a looted deff sar ftw!


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## emporershand89

joebauerek said:


> but takes time to recharge allowing the distance to be closed making the targeting of them near impossible


Hmmm, really? Cause in that clip I have above the rebels are closing distance until they were close enough to fire. It still hit them. The Death Star has Orbital Lasers, Turbo lasers, Capital Lasers, Torpedoes, e.t.c. If you really feel the need to continue the argument I'll post the entire statistics on the Death Star in-thread if you like. 



Cruxyh said:


> what would prevent an Inquisitor and his acolytes from boarding the Death Star? ID-cards and a registration system?


Hahhaa, funny actually.  Might I point out the Legion upon Legions of Stormtroopers and military personal aboard the Death Star. The original was suppose to have a total of 650,00 military personal aboard. I mean if you read into it, it was a living moon in all honest. So yes they could fight.



darkreever said:


> Unfortunately for you, this is not correct. Vessels which fall under the escort catagory (things like frigates or destroyers) range from ~1.4-1.9km in length. The mainstay of most fleets in 40k are the capitol ships, cruisers and the like. Those tend to be about 5km in length


Even better, a bigger target that's easier to hit. that only solidifies my point Darkreever that the Death Star can hit ships in a combat zone. Excusing fighter craft it can hit 40k Escorts, Cruiser, Battle cruisers, Battleships, Battle Barges, e.t.c. The Mon Calamari M-80 Star is the size of a 40k Escort ship, and it got hit. Therefore we can logically conclude that if the Death Star could hit a ship that was roughly 1.8km long(the size of an Escort ship), then it could porbably hit a ship that's 5km long.




joebauerek said:


> some records of some imperium battleships going upto 10km.... but as said the average size is around 5-6km long


As I said above, all the better



darkreever said:


> planet killer


"*Killer*" is the key word Darkreever, perhaps I should bold that from now on. I'm not arguing that 40k doesn't have planet "Killing" weapons. However I'm arguing they have no planet "_*Destroying*_" weapons, none in cannon lore and neither in any novel I've read(and that's extensive). Same with any other race; none of them can destroy an entire planet. If you note my post above I mentioned that even the Nids cannot "Destroy" a planet, only kill and absorb it. I would only make an except for a daemon himself, I know there was one instance where I ready of Tzeetch destroying a planet only to reform it in an image that suited him. But even that was more magic, and less physical reality.


----------



## Doelago

emporershand89 said:


> Hahhaa, funny actually.  Might I point out the Legion upon Legions of Stormtroopers and military personal aboard the Death Star. The original was suppose to have a total of 650,00 military personal aboard. I mean if you read into it, it was a living moon in all honest. So yes they could fight.


A quick teleport assault with a few squads of Terminators would do the job without breaking a sweat. 



emporershand89 said:


> "*Killer*" is the key word Darkreever, perhaps I should bold that from now on. I'm not arguing that 40k doesn't have planet "Killing" weapons. However I'm arguing they have no planet "_*Destroying*_" weapons, none in cannon lore and neither in any novel I've read(and that's extensive). Same with any other race; none of them can destroy an entire planet. If you note my post above I mentioned that even the Nids cannot "Destroy" a planet, only kill and absorb it. I would only make an except for a daemon himself, I know there was one instance where I ready of Tzeetch destroying a planet only to reform it in an image that suited him. But even that was more magic, and less physical reality.


What is required for the planet to be destroyed? For it to be blown into rubble like Alderaan? 

Does this count? 






That‘s one ship doing the killing. Shoot the same thing at a Death Star, and it turns into a dead star.


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## MEQinc

emporershand89 said:


> However I'm arguing they have no planet "_*Destroying*_" weapons, none in cannon lore and neither in any novel I've read(and that's extensive).


Interesting that you entirely ignore the part of his post where he states that two-stage and cyclonic torpedoes both destroy the planet.

As for evidence of planets being destroyed in fluff I will point to the destruction of Nostromo (done, IIFC, by a single ship) and the destruction of Caliban (leaving only a few asteroids to be used as the Rock). Planet destruction exists in 40k, and is fairly common.

Beyond that, what is the actual strategic benefit to destroying a planet versus killing it? Killing it will ensure that anything and everything on it will no longer pose a military threat, same as destruction. However destruction leaves a useless, and potentially dangerous, asteroid field behind while 'mere' killing of the planet still allows the planet to be potentially useful.


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## darkreever

emporershand89 said:


> The Death Star has Orbital Lasers, Turbo lasers, Capital Lasers, Torpedoes, e.t.c.


And what are the effective ranges of those things, and their volume?

40k fleets engage one another from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, and still manage to hit each orther. While its true that the death star laser has a range of about .3 au, thats just one laser able to take out one ship at a time, assuming it hits every time.




emporershand89 said:


> Might I point out the Legion upon Legions of Stormtroopers and military personal aboard the Death Star. The original was suppose to have a total of 650,00 military personal aboard. I mean if you read into it, it was a living moon in all honest. So yes they could fight.


And this is how much of an issue for the nigh unlimited numbers of Orks, or Tyranids, or Necrons, or a dedicated assault from a chapter of Space Marines?




emporershand89 said:


> Therefore we can logically conclude that if the Death Star could hit a ship that was roughly 1.8km long(the size of an Escort ship), then it could porbably hit a ship that's 5km long.


Actually, all you should really take from that is that star wars ships are relatively small compared to 40k and that the death star was able to hit what would be a smaller 40k warship from a relatively close distance.

I can only assume the ability to hit even a cruiser or battleship would be very difficult from their effective ranges (and keep in mind that a ship moves much faster than a near non moving planet.)



emporershand89 said:


> "*Killer*" is the key word Darkreever, perhaps I should bold that from now on. I'm not arguing that 40k doesn't have planet "Killing" weapons. However I'm arguing they have no planet "_*Destroying*_" weapons, none in cannon lore and neither in any novel I've read(and that's extensive).


Now I don't know what grinds me the wrong way more, the fact that you deliberately focused on a single word and wrote everything else off, or the fact that your so fucking lazy that you didn't bother to look the following up yourself before posting yet another deluge of shit:

Planet killer:


> The [planet killer] owes its power to its main weapon, the Armageddon Gun, which can destroy an entire planet.





> The destruction of Savaven: Abaddon first demonstrated the _Planet Killer's_ devastating main weapon on the Cardinal World of Savaven, with the account from one of the orbital defence commanders describing continents splitting apart, burning skies and the planet breaking into pieces. Sources indicate that 14 million people died within an hour and effects on imperial morale throughout the sector were crippling.





> The assault on Arimaspia: Abaddon left the _Planet Killer_ under the command of Malefica Arkham, who was supposed to launch a diversionary attack against Arimaspia. Arkham succeeded to destroy two of the five planets in the system.


All I did there was go to Lexicanum and type planet killer; found all that and more.



> Once fully activated, a Blackstone Fortress is capable of breaking the barrier between realspace and warpspace, creating a beam of pure immaterium to destroy everything in its path. This power can be linked with other Fortresses to create an even more powerful beam, as was evident when Abaddon used two Fortresses to destroy the planet Fularis II, and three to cause the Tarantis star to go supernova.


And there we have blackstone fortresses able to destroy planets just as I said before.

You also have two stage melta torpedoes as I mentioned before as well, via a planet being declared exterminatus.


----------



## joebauerek

emporershand89 said:


> Hmmm, really? Cause in that clip I have above the rebels are closing distance until they were close enough to fire. It still hit them. The Death Star has Orbital Lasers, Turbo lasers, Capital Lasers, Torpedoes, e.t.c. If you really feel the need to continue the argument I'll post the entire statistics on the Death Star in-thread if you like.


The first ship was destroyed at comparable range... the second wasnt closing it was engaged with the star destroyers....

I do get your point but i mean if there underneath the death star, behind or above the death star then it carnt shoot them.... by close i mean literally under 10km which for something the size of the deathstar is really close..... and if they arrive at one of those points its going to take a long time for it to rotate so it can get them in the line of fire.

And as dark reaver has said what is the volumes of these weapons? A battle barge is said to have tens of thousands of anti fighter las weapons, thousands of lance batteries, dozens of macro cannons and either a bombardment cannon or nova cannon or torpedo launchers..... and a battle barge isnt made for space combat so imagine the volume of fire of a dedicated anti ship vessel....... and fleets in 40k arnt the same as star wars at Endor there were 30ish star destroyers.... 40k fleets can number into the thousands.

As for the numbers on the death star.... its been established 40k would win in "ground" engagement....

Dont get me wrong the death star is awesome but has many many flaws..... even with its awesome firepower and escort fleet the number of 40k ships would carry the day......


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## emporershand89

Doelago said:


> That‘s one ship doing the killing. Shoot the same thing at a Death Star, and it turns into a dead star


Doelago, it's a dead star, they killed the planet. I do not see in that video where it is utterly annihilated. In regards to your earlier question yes, Destroying a planet means nothing but space dust and asteroids(like Alderaan). Hope that clears things up, i have yet to find such a thing in 40k.



MEQinc said:


> you entirely ignore the part of his post where he states that two-stage and cyclonic torpedoes


Intentionally yes, because niether of those weapons "*Destroy*" a planet, only kill it. As the definiton stands to Destroy means, "....to damage something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be used or repaired." To kill means,"... to make a person or animal die." This is from the English Dictionary, and I hope it elaborates the point clearly to you and everyne else. When I say Warhammer 40k has no planet "*Destroying*" superweapons I mean there has yet to be an Alderaan(minus the daemons in the warp and the messed up planets Tzeetch has made). 40k does have planet "*killing*" weapons such as cyclonics and two-stage. Besides the Imperium wants to keep the planet for possibly recolonization so I'm sure they wouldn't annihilate it like Palpatine wanted too. 



MEQinc said:


> destruction of Nostromo (done, IIFC, by a single ship) and the destruction of Caliban


They killed the planet, Caliban was wiped out but the planet itself, the hunk of rock thats left still exists according to cannon lore. Thuogh I did read somewhere about the entire left side being obliterated. I will read more into this, thnxs for the pointer.



MEQinc said:


> the actual strategic benefit to destroying a planet versus killing it


Indeed there is. Fear for one, scare the rest of the planets who are afaird of the same fate. So Political and Moral benefit. Secondly annihilating a planet means it cannot be used by enemy force ever again....period!!! Good for opening up or rooting out enemy strong points. Finally, with the speed of FTL hyper-space travel that Death Star can move enough force to siege a planet and take out the govenors rapidly. I mean just take a look into the statistics, which I will post later because it seems no one is reading facts here.



Doelago said:


> teleport assault with a few squads of Terminators


Last I checked the Tibian-gas operated laser assault rifles Stormtroopers have can cut through most armor. While Idk how strong it would be against ceramite, I'd bet my paycheck that it can punch through it. Since it cuts through Driodeka's I'm assuming it porbably can with the right tweaking.

Darkreever, studious as always. Your first two points are valid, but as I said earlier in this thread I personally feel that the fight would be decided on the ground. Unfortuanlty the conversation seems to have drifted to focusing just the Death Star, which I'm happy to move on from.

I will look into there effective range for those weapons. However I'm sure that since SW ships tend to engage at hundreds of km apart from one another that it would be able to defend itself in space. I would be interested to see how it would fair against a Battle Barge.

The million of Orks, countless Nids, and many other evils are all enemies that can be fought by the Legions upon Legions of Imperial Soldiers, or Driod Armies, or Republic troppers, take your pick. Plus I also feel SW's superior technology, weaponry, and modern tactics supported by Jedi would easily take care of that problem(Except against the Necrons, I'm having second thoughts with them honestly). 

Consider this for a moment, and I invite you all to read into it. Titans stand at roughly 100-170ft tall, the tallest being the Emporer Class Titan. An Imperial AT-AT Walker stands at roughly 135ft tall. The AT-AT packs enough Turbo firepower to punch holes though bunkers. I can see them both going toe to toe, even with the massive arrays of the Titans. Also we have the AT-ST, AT-PT, AT-TE with stand anywhere from 70 to 120 ft tall and carry just as much punch. I feel that these walkers would change the way your "massive army" theory really plays out; and outmanuever the Titans(even Reavers). 

Additionally there are examples of SW factions fielding masvie armies in the Clone Wars, not so much Galactic Civil War. at the Battle for Naboo the Trade Federation deploy 6 armies, Army A-F for the hostile takeover. During the Battle of Grassy Plains the Gungan Grand Army deployed over 8,00 warriors, while the combine Driod Armies of A-D number in the thousands(I have yet to find a number, but I'd be willing to bet 10,000 conservitaly).










At the Battle for Geonosis The Republic deployed the following numbers......

215 Jedi
192,000 Clone Troopers with Gunship/Heavy Weapons Teams and Snipers
10,000 Clone Commandoes
80 Z-class speeder bikes
2160 AT-TE Walkers/Scout Walkers
2000 Gunships of various assortment
10 Energy Beam GAR-class Anti-Captial Ship Class Walkers(those big turtle-like walkers shooting down the Droid command ships in the 2nd movie)
200 Artillery
250 Ground-Fighter craft
2 Medes Class Stratosphere capable Strike ships.

Now the Driods.......

1 Sith(Go figure Dooku to be a selfish bastard).
1 Kaleesh Cyborg(General Grevious who at the time was Dooku's second-in-command)
1 Million B1 Battle Droids(Roughly according to "Wookipedia")
3.96 million deployed later in battle from Lcrehulk-class Battleships(the orb looking ones trying to get airborne)
21 Assault Droids
100,000 B2 Super Battle Droids
3,000 Droideka's
15,000 Dwarf Spider Walkers(smaller 1 cannon)
7,500 OG-9 Spider Walkers(larger Beam/Trubolaser walkers)
4,100 Hellfire Droid Strikers
Thousands of Nanex-class fightercraft(the basic droid fighters, no estimated number on these)
1 Sepretists Ground Cruiser


Now that long list is just the forces involved on the Ground, if you want the Space numbers PM me and I'll send you the link. Overall I estimate were looking at well over 5-6 million soldiers/Droids and vehicles. Thats more than I read about in some Warhammer 40k novels, even more so that the Battle of Prospero with Gaunt(Did I type that right?). 

Understand once and for all my freinds that SW can field the numbers for just one Battle, if not larger. They could easily have fought the Sabbat Crusade Armies, rivalled the Traitor Legions of the 13th Black Crusade, and maybe have even made a dent in Warmaster Horus's legions. Also keep in mind this was the opening fight that lead to countless of large scale battle with the Sepretists forces. Millions died in the war, untold billions of Droids were destroyed. If anything the real question we should be asking is more the tactics and make-up for the two opposing forces. For example, Space Marine physical abilities versus avrage Republic Clones. Laser tanks versus Leman Russ, Jedi vs. Psyker, Star Destroyer vs. Imperator Class Battleship? That, I feel gentlemen, is where the true arguement lies.

If you really still feel that the "massive troop theory" of the Ork Horde, Nid Swarm, or Choas nut jobs is relevant; then please have your head examined. :victory: 

As for the Armageddon Gun Darkreever I have never heard of it honestly. I will read into it further too see if it merits Death Star rivalry.

Now, I'm going to get pizza and coffee................


----------



## locustgate

emporershand89 said:


> Battle of Prospero


1k Sons

7 Fellowships, each contained around 900, (source, "suffered 900 casualties, effectively wiping out a fellowship"), so around , 6300. And billions of basic soldiers and citizens. 

1 Warhound titan.

Wolves significantly more than 1k sons
Don't know but
At least 2 custodians
Sisters of silence, ?


In Space
Wolves
Hundreds of Space craft, so 100-999.999
Sons
?

Soooo, just the sons out numbered both SW forces.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

As a long-time Star Wars fan, I think on a strategic basis the Imperium would wipe the floor with either the Empire or the Old Republic, especially the Old Republic.

The Imperium has 1,000,000 settled planets and all the Forge Worlds to support their industrial production. The Empire had some pretty incredible planets, but the overall industrial production was nothing on the scale of the Imperium, which is why the Rebellion was ultimately successful in the fleet-based battle at the end of the ROTJ. The battle was impressive, but any Crusade fleet would far exceed the size of either the Imperial or Rebel fleet in the battle.

In a pitched confrontation between the two empires, the Imperium has shown a far greater willingness to commit Exterminatus to wipe a planet clean than anything the Empire was willing to do as a demonstration.

In some of the follow-up books in the SW universe an invading army from another galaxy, that lacked any midi-chlorians in their genetic makeup, go toe to toe with the Jedi. Their blankness to the Jedi put them on an even footing since the Jedi couldn't predict their movements and these are warriors that are smaller/weaker versions of Space Marines. Considering, the Imperium would only need to send in groups of Grey Knights or Librarians along with a chapter of Space Marines and there go all the Jedi in one fell swoop.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

emporershand89 said:


> Intentionally yes, because niether of those weapons "*Destroy*" a planet, only kill it.
> 
> Consider this for a moment, and I invite you all to read into it. Titans stand at roughly 100-170ft tall, the tallest being the Emporer Class Titan. An Imperial AT-AT Walker stands at roughly 135ft tall. The AT-AT packs enough Turbo firepower to punch holes though bunkers. I can see them both going toe to toe, even with the massive arrays of the Titans. Also we have the AT-ST, AT-PT, AT-TE with stand anywhere from 70 to 120 ft tall and carry just as much punch. I feel that these walkers would change the way your "massive army" theory really plays out; and outmanuever the Titans(even Reavers).
> 
> Understand once and for all my freinds that SW can field the numbers for just one Battle, if not larger. They could easily have fought the Sabbat Crusade Armies, rivalled the Traitor Legions of the 13th Black Crusade, and maybe have even made a dent in Warmaster Horus's legions. Also keep in mind this was the opening fight that lead to countless of large scale battle with the Sepretists forces. Millions died in the war, untold billions of Droids were destroyed.


The only value the Death Star had in breaking apart a planet was the terror factor for the rest of the Empire. You either remove a planet from play in the larger war, or you do not. It's an irrelevant weapon when your entire galactic production can only make one every several years(?) decades(?).

The AT-AT and it's myriad kin are all vulnerable to minor kinetic weapons, while Titans actually go through building/forests/etc to hide. A mighty AT-AT is destroyed by having a tow rope coiled around it's legs... that's just bad design. Finally, there are no analogies for mobile Void Shields in the SW universe, which every capital Titan posseses. In the Empire Strikes Back the AT-AT's capital guns were blowing up a single small gun turret at a time, while an Emperor Class Titan's main guns destroy entire fortifications/towns... there are no adequate comparisons.

Finally, the Clone Wars represented the background noise of the Imperium on a good day, and those wars were the pinnacle of warfare in the SW universe over a 15,000 year period. If they kept up that pace for another 4,000 - 5,000 years, then perhaps they could put up a fight against the Imperium. George Lucas created the Old Republic to Empire transition to show how democracies are subverted when faced with violent dictatorships. Hell, the Imperium was founded and thrived on that principal alone.

No question the Empire/Old Republic would have a loooooong way to go before puting up a real fight against the Imperium.


----------



## emporershand89

Oh dear lord........I will withdraw from this debate then. Two Meters I would suggest you go to www.Wookipedia.com and read some of the staistics. The AT-AT's are not as vunerable as you make them out to be.


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## locustgate

emporershand89 said:


> Oh dear lord........I will withdraw from this debate then. Two Meters I would suggest you go to www.Wookipedia.com and read some of the staistics. The AT-AT's are not as vunerable as you make them out to be.


Dude, there 2 things you can go off of, what you see or what you read....I'm sorry but seeing as how large of a weak the tops of them are in movies/books, the At-Ats are pretty powerful but I will take something that is powerful AND maneuverable, i.e. warhound titan. If it's At^2 vs infantry I would bet on the At^2 any day.


----------



## joebauerek

emporershand89 said:


> Last I checked the Tibian-gas operated laser assault rifles Stormtroopers have can cut through most armor. While Idk how strong it would be against ceramite, I'd bet my paycheck that it can punch through it. Since it cuts through Driodeka's I'm assuming it porbably can with the right tweaking.


The blasters dont cut through drodikas or battledroids (can knock limbs, heads off etc)..... plus blasters dont even punch through storm trooper armour which looks incredibly flimys (i know its more durable than it look) also they dont seem to penetrate walls at all (ive read a fair bit of extended universe stuff). Compared to a las gun it seems just as effective. Compared to a bolter which can punch through tank armour... bolter wins. And close combat the skill of jedi will last for so long but they can be beaten by non-force users eventually... cummon' on genosis they were killed by droids 

Plus blasters vs orks... they survive fatal shots and still move so.... yeah....



emporershand89 said:


> At the Battle for Geonosis The Republic deployed the following numbers......
> 
> 215 Jedi
> 192,000 Clone Troopers with Gunship/Heavy Weapons Teams and Snipers
> 10,000 Clone Commandoes
> 80 Z-class speeder bikes
> 2160 AT-TE Walkers/Scout Walkers
> 2000 Gunships of various assortment
> 10 Energy Beam GAR-class Anti-Captial Ship Class Walkers(those big turtle-like walkers shooting down the Droid command ships in the 2nd movie)
> 200 Artillery
> 250 Ground-Fighter craft
> 2 Medes Class Stratosphere capable Strike ships.
> 
> Now the Driods.......
> 
> 1 Sith(Go figure Dooku to be a selfish bastard).
> 1 Kaleesh Cyborg(General Grevious who at the time was Dooku's second-in-command)
> 1 Million B1 Battle Droids(Roughly according to "Wookipedia")
> 3.96 million deployed later in battle from Lcrehulk-class Battleships(the orb looking ones trying to get airborne)
> 21 Assault Droids
> 100,000 B2 Super Battle Droids
> 3,000 Droideka's
> 15,000 Dwarf Spider Walkers(smaller 1 cannon)
> 7,500 OG-9 Spider Walkers(larger Beam/Trubolaser walkers)
> 4,100 Hellfire Droid Strikers
> Thousands of Nanex-class fightercraft(the basic droid fighters, no estimated number on these)
> 1 Sepretists Ground Cruiser


Read some lexicanum some crusades are massive involving over 30 guard regiments (15,000-50,000 men in size dependent on the source) so your looking at 450,000 to 1,500,000 men in one crusade, not to mention the hundreds of supporting capital ships, tanks, guns etc as well as inquisition forces, sisters of battle and space marines. And theres hundreds if not thousands of these crusades going on.
Also the skitarii could equal droids so thats a tie.

The highest named cadian regiment is 840th so at the lowest the number of men from cadia alone is 12,600,000 and at a high 42,000,000.
Whilst DKK highest numbered regiment is 933 so at the lower end it could be 13,995,000 to the highest 46,650,000 
These are not including armoured, seige, artillaty or heavy armoured regiments so the actual numbers are so much higher

Also Ullanor the planet is nearly covered completly and filled with troops so take the numbers there as you will 

So therefore numbers are are comparable at best... more likley in 40k's favour (cloning would even this out dependent on what time frame your on about)



emporershand89 said:


> Plus I also feel SW's superior technology, weaponry, and modern tactics supported by Jedi would easily take care of that problem


Weaponry ive just discussed, technology yes they have the advantage of faster than light travel yet for wider tech still no proof. As for modern tactics only a few 40k regiments use old world war 1-2 tactics (death korps of kreig), quite a few use modern tactics, look at the catachans and elysians using gurilla and airborne warfare respectably so modern tactics in SW only is BS. 

Plus as said out of universe non midiclorians can confuse jedi so therefore psykers could potentially screw them up and enhanced physiology could possibly carry victory. However this is a toss up it could go either way.

However on the Titan vs AT-AT debate i think it would be more equal. Turbo lasers through bunkers fair enough..... titans can disintegrate them and blast through seige walls. Titans also do close combat so they have an edge there. But knocking them over may be difficult but i recon the titans would just pip it.


----------



## Kettu

Sizes for Imperium ships are loose, as far as I know there has never been a single actual size that's agreed on but they are generally approx: 

Battleships - 10-12km
Grand Cruisers - 8-10km
Cruisers - 6-8km
Light Cruisers - 4-6km
Frigates and Escorts - 1-6km

I lack figures on other vessels however all the Battle Fleet Gothic miniatures are *mostly* _'in scale'_ with each other so if people want to extrapolate their sizes based on the Imperial Navy, go right ahead.
Please note sizes WILL be off as GW has said that though they wanted all the ships to remain in proper scale with each other, it wasn't always the best option and it isn't always the case. 
Black Stone Fortresses for main example are several magnitude larger then what the miniatures would suggest as they were used as docks for navy ships back when the Imperium had owned them. 30cm minis are not really an option however.

However, the minis themselves are not in scale to the game, the BFG rulebook mentions that the minis in scale to the game would be microscopic on their flight stands.

People feel free to debate this, (x book said this, y book said that, z book said over 30km for an escort (Some bloody escort)), but I've been looking through the fluff a fair bit and this seems to be the generally agreed on sizes.

Distances of Engagement are tricky, Star Wars books give them in thousands to millions of kilometres but the movies never show them shooting further then a few hundred at most. 
40K on the other hand has had one of those rare moments where things ARE agreed on. No total distance is given (Except in FFG's Rogue Trader game) but are given the means to work things out, every cm is approx 1000 - 4000 kms in real distance. Any picture to the contrary has been said to be a 'dramatic retelling' so things seem less like Red October and more just straight out action. (Even in the 41st Millennium, reality is unrealistic)

This is a *VERY* important point here as every mini has a flight stand with the larger of the two bases. (The 5cm diameter ones) this represents the ships 'cqc' zone (Spitting Distance, I call it). This means that a rough distance of 2000 - 3000km is the range of their 'defence' weapons and the realistic range of ship to ship boarding without long-range options like Assault Craft or Boarding Torpedos.

This means that Movie Canon Star Wars ships must be in boarding range of an Imperial ship to attack.

Imperial Navy meanwhile considers 10,000kms to be 'short range' and 60,000 - 100,000kms to be long range. Many weapons can fire even further with fair amount of accuracy but this is the general maximum given for reliable encounters.

On the far end of the spectrum is things like Nova Cannons and Torpedos which have operational ranges counted in AUs and should be used as such.

There is also the power of the weapons involved.
Imperial Navy ships carry rather powerful weapons and just three or so shots of a Primary Weapon Battery are enough to crack a tectonic plate of a planet. Not the most quantifiable measure but that is rather powerful regardless. (And pretty much a death-sentence for any world)

'Defensive' Turrets are the ones normally use in 'tactical bombardments' as their destructive abilities are far less and won't just vaporise several kilometres of countryside, city and battlefield.

Harking back to the Nova Cannon I mentioned above, it fires shells that explode with a blast zone roughly three quarters the Diameter of earth. (7000 - 8000km, give or take.)

Also, please note my previous post.
I'll add more info later to further clear up more misconceptions and to further add info to the combat ability of the Imperium.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

emporershand89 said:


> Oh dear lord........I will withdraw from this debate then. Two Meters I would suggest you go to www.Wookipedia.com and read some of the statistics. The AT-AT's are not as vulnerable as you make them out to be.


Seriously, you're a troll? Figures. www.wookipedia.com goes to the Monster job site and www.wookiepedia.com goes to a web broker site that has, among other enlightening, but useless, star wars sites as a feature on 'breasts' with nary a photo of the Princess Leia/Jabba outfit to be found. Sad.

If you have a sincere interest in debating canon/stats, then COTE linked to an excellent article by ADB on the FAQ page http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/ that actually uses the Star Wars writers and franchises as a way of describing WH40K canon. It's an excellent article for canon nuts and the vagaries of corporate hobbyists.

That being said, you don't need to pick up your toys and go home simply because you lost on a few points of asserted 'canon' drawn from a fan(?) site, when the actual SW movies support my counter-argument.

On an evolutionary scale, the SW universe was under conflict for less than about 50-60 years (Anakin was under 30 when Luke was born and Luke was under 30 when the Empire fell). The Imperium had been at war with itself (Chaos) and every other xenos nasty that could mascerate human flesh for over 10,000 years. On an evolutionary scale of warfare, the Imperium was light years ahead of the Empire... pun intended :victory:


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## darkreever

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Seriously, you're a troll? Figures. www.wookipedia.com goes to the Monster job site and www.wookiepedia.com goes to a web broker site that has, among other enlightening, but useless, star wars sites as a feature on 'breasts' with nary a photo of the Princess Leia/Jabba outfit to be found. Sad.


To be fair, he very likely meant the star wars wiki which is called Wookiepedia



Kettu said:


> Grand Cruisers - 8-10km 7-8
> Cruisers - 6-8km 5-6
> Frigates and Escorts - 1-6km 1-2


Where did you get these numbers from?

I have both the orriginal BFG and BFG: Armada books and neither give numbers close to these (book numbers in blue)


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## emporershand89

joebauerek said:


> blasters dont even punch through storm trooper armour


I beg to differ joe, in almost every movie I see Storm troopers getting shot through there armor. Luke Skywalker shot one in the upper right chest after he watched Obi-Wan Kenobi die in Star Wars IV: A New Hope. Numerous troopers got picked off through there armor during scenes of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi. 

While I grant you I don't know the exact statistics on the armor itself, it's not laser-proof in anyway shape or form. 



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Seriously, you're a troll?


UUUUUHHHHHH.........:shok:........Two Meters I think your looking at a different site? Wookipedia.com is the Wikipedia of Star Wars. It's one of 3 officially recognized Star Wars cannon sites. Either that or you've completely lost me bro

Also, a good read on the two series and interesting to note on the writers; but it doesn't really relate to what were debating here. This is nerdom here bro, statistics to back up claims about one side or the other, the propositions of idea's in line with lore, and the dick smacking process of "My Side is Better.". Were not debating which side was written better, because honestly I have no opinion there


----------



## MEQinc

emporershand89 said:


> They killed the planet, Caliban was wiped out but the planet itself, the hunk of rock thats left still exists according to cannon lore.





> Destroying a planet means nothing but space dust and asteroids(like Alderaan).


Both Caliban and Nostromo have been reduced to nothing more than asteroids. The largest asteroid from Caliban is about the size of a large capital ship. By your own definition you really can't get more destroyed than that.



> Indeed there is. Fear for one, scare the rest of the planets who are afaird of the same fate. So Political and Moral benefit.


Is there a greater fear created by destroying a planet versus killing it though? Both result in the same thing for the people on the planet after all. Plus 40k's planet killing weapons offer far more varied and painful deaths than the simple laser>boom of the Death Star.



> Secondly annihilating a planet means it cannot be used by enemy force ever again....period!!!


But it also means it can't be used by you ever again. If you have the superior fire-power required to kill (or destroy) then you have the firepower required to control the space around it, meaning you have the ability to make use of it. Killing the planet still offers that potential, destroying it doesn't.



> Understand once and for all my freinds that SW can field the numbers for just one Battle, if not larger.


They certainly could field those numbers for just one battle, unfortunately 40k can field those numbers (and more besides) on countless battlefields simultaneously. 



> They could easily have fought the Sabbat Crusade Armies, rivalled the Traitor Legions of the 13th Black Crusade, and maybe have even made a dent in Warmaster Horus's legions.


Wow, just no. The Sabbat Worlds crusade is fought across dozens of worlds at any one time and features millions, if not billions, of soldiers (and of course is considered a minor offensive in Imperial history). The Traitor Legions at their height number around 900,000 of the finest genetically engineered killing machines ever assembled and billions, if not trillions, of human soldiers. To expect mere mortals to put any kind of dent in that kind of force is beyond ridiculous.



> For example, Space Marine physical abilities versus avrage Republic Clones.


Hmm, genetically-engineered post-human killing-machine versus well-trained soldier? There's no contest here. The Cadian's would be the equal of a Clone Trooper, if not their better, and they can't hold a candle to a Space Marine.



> If you really still feel that the "massive troop theory" of the Ork Horde, Nid Swarm, or Choas nut jobs is relevant; then please have your head examined.


These forces can deploy literally unending hordes of soldiers. How is their massive, massive numerical advantage not relevant? And that's of course ignoring all the other things they can do, such as the Ork's ability to run impossible technology off ignorance alone or the Tyranid's ability to co-ordinate billions of organisms through a single intelligence or Chaos' ability to seep into your very soul.


----------



## Doelago

emporershand89 said:


> I beg to differ joe, in almost every movie I see Storm troopers getting shot through there armor. Luke Skywalker shot one in the upper right chest after he watched Obi-Wan Kenobi die in Star Wars IV: A New Hope. Numerous troopers got picked off through there armor during scenes of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi.


I also recall Leia getting shot in the shoulder in Episode VI on Endor and it barely even leaving a burn mark. Duh.


----------



## effigy22

Doelago said:


> I also recall Leia getting shot in the shoulder in Episode VI on Endor and it barely even leaving a burn mark. Duh.


yeah... My bad, forgot to the setting back up after microwaving my clone rations.


----------



## joebauerek

emporershand89 said:


> I beg to differ joe, in almost every movie I see Storm troopers getting shot through there armor. Luke Skywalker shot one in the upper right chest after he watched Obi-Wan Kenobi die in Star Wars IV: A New Hope. Numerous troopers got picked off through there armor during scenes of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi.


As Doelago stated she did get shot in the shoulder with a small wound. And they did but from what you were saying i thought you meant through as pass clean through so that may be a misunderstanding on my part. It can go through the armour but not out.... las guns have about the same effect...

As for walls not seen them go through one yet so that point stands.


----------



## Kettu

darkreever said:


> I have both the orriginal BFG and BFG: Armada books and neither give numbers close to these (book numbers in blue)


They are general figures I've found from many varied sources. I once had a full list drawn up but unfortunately lost it in the great Laptop Crash of 2010. 
I lost a lot of good files that day, all of them keenly felt and deeply missed.:alcoholic:


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## emporershand89

Doelago said:


> recall Leia getting shot in the shoulder in Episode VI on Endor and it barely even leaving a burn mark. Duh.


Well duh, I believe that it did more than leave a burn mark. I suppose her being out of the fight after that meant nothing. DUH :laugh:



MEQinc said:


> unending hordes of soldiers


So can SW and.....



MEQinc said:


> genetically-engineered post-human killing-machine versus well-trained soldier?


So are the clones developed on Kamino from the DNA of Jango Fett, and.....



MEQinc said:


> They certainly could field those numbers for just one battle, unfortunately 40k can field those numbers (and more besides) on countless battlefields simultaneously


So could Star Wars, in fact it might force the Empire/Republic to become the next Imperium in order to counter them. My friend your previous three points have little merit to them. Star Wars can field the numbers in numerous battles. I encourage you to vivist www.Wookipedia.com, or try http://starwarsfans.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Fanpedia another well known Star Wars Wikipedia. Both will show the massive forces arrayed during the clone wars on multiple battlefields simultaneously. 

Additionally the clones of Kamino who became the Republics Storm Troopers were genetically modified humans that were designed to be the best. the fastest, healthiest, strongest, quick thinkers, good leaders, e.t.c. They may not be huge, like a SM, but they can make up for it. If your going to argue this point please tell me why you feel SM would trump the clones and not blunt trauma it.



MEQinc said:


> But it also means it can't be used by you ever again


????Yes, and......was that not clear enough to you that both sides couldn't use it.....????



Kettu said:


> Distances of Engagement are tricky, Star Wars books give them in thousands to millions of kilometres but the movies never show them shooting further then a few hundred at most.


This is true, and since reading into it today I find that an interesting fact Kettu. The SW movies tend to not align with the SW cannon lore. I will have to look into this but you are correct, most naval battles in the movies are at "Fighter" distance as I would put it.


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## MidnightSun

emporershand89 said:


> [40k can field billions of soldiers] So can SW and.....


40k has entire PLANETS dedicated to the production of ammunition for the Imperium's armies, let alone any other race. That's all they make. Magazine after magazine after magazine. Yet *still* it's a common tactic of Tyranid forces to have enough bodies on the ground to force defenders to run out of ammunition.

With those sorts of supplies being expended in such short periods of time, I think Star Wars would struggle. Hugely.

Midnight


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## emporershand89

MidnightSun said:


> With those sorts of supplies being expended in such short periods of time, I think Star Wars would struggle. Hugely.


Indeed I think they would, though personally I believe they don't worry so much on ammunition for weapons. they have Tibian gas production planets around the place. How else would Palatine expand his Storm Trooper Army? Good point though


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## MidnightSun

I think every gun has some kind of ammunition, and if it doesn't a laser weapon would overheat eventually. The Tyranids have always been fond of rushing until your guns overheat/jam/run out of ammo/you starve/you run away and *then* send in the big creatures. Even if you did have ammo left, what do you shoot? If you shoot the little ones, the big ones will get to you and then you die. Period. If you shoot the big ones, you best be damn sure you bring down the Synapse links because if you shoot the Carnifexen the little guys will swarm over you. Doesn't help that you're trying to aim at a Hormagaunt while a Ripper chews your leg, a Gargoyle mauls your head and a Spore Mine's slowly drifting down.

Midnight


----------



## DeathJester921

Heh. Storm and Clone troopers equal to Space Marines. That is a good one. No they are not equal. Not even close. Space Marines can survive wounds that would kill a storm trooper several times over. They can lose organs and keep fighting (after all, they do have more than the normal amount of organs. 2 hearts for example. One taken out, the other takes its place.) Their wounds clot almost instantly. They have lost limbs and gone on fighting. Lasers from Imperial blasters are probably about the same as lasguns. A lasgun shot will slightly melt a space marines armor. 

Lets see, one shot from an imperial blaster has killed storm troopers, or at the very least incapacitated them. One shot. So Imperial Guard wouldn't be used as cannon fodder for once. They'd ACTUALLY be on even footing with an enemy for once. With the amount of troops, regular human troops that are armed almost like a storm trooper would be, from ALL across the galaxy, there would be billions of Guardsmen that the Imperium could pull together to face the SW Empire military. Add in all other foes, and what do you get? Yeah, one dead Empire. The Imperium has endured for 10,000 years of constant warfare. They are beset on all sides by numerous foes (Eldar, Dark Eldar, The forces of Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, you name it). I'd like to see the Empire deal with this for 10,000 years. They'd be dead in less than 100 years, I'd wager. They simply don't have the means to fight off all of these enemies.


----------



## Protoss119

There. Now they're one and the same.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Plus Storm troopers can't shoot for shit, seriously, they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn!

I know this, I saw the films!


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## bobss

How this has reached 16 pages is beyond me.

Never mind the Imperium of Man. Never mind the net eldar remnants. *40k*, even minus daemonic presences, wins through sheer scale.

How Empire Stormtroopers match against Guardsmen or Space Marines means little.

>Star Wars wanking
>Emperorshand

Oh dear.


----------



## locustgate

emporershand89 said:


> Well duh, I believe that it did more than leave a burn mark. I suppose her being out of the fight after that meant nothing. DUH :laugh:


Agreed, it left a small 2.5 degree burn, but blasters seem to act more like a blunt force trauma, while a lasrifle acts more like an actual bullet.



> So are the clones developed on Kamino from the DNA of Jango Fett, and.....


Yes the clones are genetically modified, BUT to compare clones to SMs is like comparing a serval to a lion.

P.S. by the time of the 1st star wars movie, most of the storm troopers were normal people and some none Jango Fett clones, his clones became rare

P.P.S. Known modifications, Quick aging, more aggressive than Jango was, and inability to disobey an order, although a small % were missing this.


----------



## darkreever

bobss said:


> How this has reached 16 pages is beyond me.


Depends on how you view things, only been eight pages for me.


----------



## MontytheMighty

emporershand89 said:


> So are the clones developed on Kamino from the DNA of Jango Fett, and.....


I'm sorry but...are you seriously comparing clone troopers to space marines? 



> Additionally the clones of Kamino who became the Republics Storm Troopers were genetically modified humans that were designed to be the best. the fastest, healthiest, strongest, quick thinkers, good leaders, e.t.c. They may not be huge, like a SM, but they can make up for it. If your going to argue this point please tell me why you feel SM would trump the clones and not blunt trauma it.


We judge their respective power levels by their performance. 

For example, look at how clones handle droids. Imagine how SM would handle droids. Big difference in ability there. 



> The SW movies tend to not align with the SW cannon lore.


What are you talking about? SW movies are highest canon. SW EU is lower on the canon ladder


----------



## Kettu

emporershand89 said:


> Additionally the clones of Kamino who became the Republics Storm Troopers were genetically modified humans that were designed to be the best. the fastest, healthiest, strongest, quick thinkers, good leaders, e.t.c. They may not be huge, like a SM, but they can make up for it. If your going to argue this point please tell me why you feel SM would trump the clones and not blunt trauma it.


40K Old fluff (Really wish I could provide an actual source here) relating to the Iron Men (Read: Robot Rebellion) included also the Stone Men and Gold Men. Those who know of this fluff commonly see the Gold Men as being Humans proper whilst the Stone Men are genetically altered and eugenically superior humans who were designed to form the first wave colonist among other things one would use a race of supermen for.
During the Iron Men rebellions, the Stone Men allied with the Gold Men however, only the Stone Men managed to survive in the end and continued on.
Basically, everyone in the Imperium is Stone Men, superior Humans over the Original ones.

This is part of my Head Canon for 40K personally. That the 'Mordern' Imperium isn't even Human, so to say, but a legacy left behind when humanity met it's end during the Dark Age of Technology at the hands of their own creations.
This goes a way to explaining the Lego Genetics, Rampant Mutantcy and the such.

Granted I am talking about Fanon here but that is part of the 40K Canon, there is a lot there and a lot will be contradictory. Take what you want from what is there and create your own for what there isn't.
Besides, as long ago as the Iron Men fluff was written, I don't think it's ever been specifically retconned out.



emporershand89 said:


> This is true, and since reading into it today I find that an interesting fact Kettu. The SW movies tend to not align with the SW cannon lore. I will have to look into this but you are correct, most naval battles in the movies are at "Fighter" distance as I would put it.


Problem here, I specifically mentioned the movies here as they are considered the Highest Canon Source for the Star Wars Franchise.
Followed by the Clone Wars CGI series and Force Unleashed Games.
Word of (ex)God, Lucas Himself.

Even with him leaving the table, until it is otherwise stated by whomever now controls the Canon, this remains the case.

---

And with these two points the Largest Issue here is laid bare.
We need to agree on Canon here for both sides if this argument is to really continue.

Otherwise we'll get the most OP elements of both franchises thrown into the pot alongside the worst of both. (Empire Storm Troopers having BS 0.1 whilst the Land Raider, the Nuke Proof tank of the Marines having worst armour then a WWII Tank)


----------



## locustgate

> The SW movies tend to not align with the SW cannon lore.


I almost choked on that...That's like saying the Mass Effect games are less cannon than the books and comics. The Elder Scrolls cannon is the 2 books. You can't go off of the fluff in the 40k dexes, only go off of what's say in the books. Star Wars started off as the movies, and so you must go off of them, they are the closest you can get to pure SW fluff as you can.


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## Angel of Blood

I literally can't believe you are comparing clone troopers to the Astartes. By saying this, you are fully showing your immense and staggering bias to SW. I mean seriously.....


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## Malus Darkblade

Kettu said:


> 40K Old fluff (Really wish I could provide an actual source here) relating to the Iron Men (Read: Robot Rebellion) included also the Stone Men and Gold Men. Those who know of this fluff commonly see the Gold Men as being Humans proper whilst the Stone Men are genetically altered and eugenically superior humans who were designed to form the first wave colonist among other things one would use a race of supermen for.
> During the Iron Men rebellions, the Stone Men allied with the Gold Men however, only the Stone Men managed to survive in the end and continued on.


3rd ed Rule book: The Journal of Keeper Cripias 


---

_
Dated in the year of our Emperor 993.M41
For seventy long years I have labored as Master Finnias labored before me, and Master Shadiel before him, through eight hundred and thirty six generations of Keepers of the Library Sanctus of Terra. It has been our endeavor, our life-long aim, to compile a history of the majesty of the Human Race from the archives which are our worship. In his benevolent wisdom, the Emperor has granted me the singular and great honor and pleasure of completing this sacred task in my own lifespan.

Through copious notes and periods of cogitation I have pieced together the history and pre-history of Mankind into the greatest antiquities of time. Here I have revealed my findings for the first time, for as it was in the time of the First Keeper, Solomon, our knowledge has passed by oratory and not written word. However, in these changing times there are none worthy to succeed me now, and so it is fit and rightful that I, the Last Keeper, Cripias, records our Great Works to these pages for eternity.

And so it was that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind, yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow. To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing order and civilization on the anarchy of Nature. In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Stone Men’s power, but are also harnessed by those of th Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifices and mechanisms. In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.

Our calculations, from the most distant and archaic records, and through constellatory comparison, have dated the end of the Golden Age at 20.000 years previous to our present time.

For the next 5.000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of Technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of Technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail. We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Stone create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their Great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thoughts.

However, the Iron Men, as all creatures do, evolve and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other they set about conquering the galaxy. The Dark Age of Technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavors. Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and it is at the end of this period that the great organisation know now as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded. During the Dark Age of Technology, the austere ancestors of the Imperium’s Navis Nobilite are born, and through their unique prowess, mankind forges through the stars. Weapons of great destruction cow the aggression of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind’s dominions.

The end of the Dark Age of Technology is the most obscure region in mankind’s evolutionary tale. For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fell to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties to their one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the Emperor, in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path to Mankind’s destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded. The Age of Strife sees the collapse of the ancient Empire built by the Stone Men. Mankind is split asunder, there is no Race of Man, just warring factions contending with each other in the direst perils the galaxy could offer. Seeing humanity’s weakness, alien dominance grows in power once again, the arms of the Stone Men left to ruin, the protection of the Iron Men destroyed in the last years of the Dark Age of Technology. 

For five millennia, the human race exists in the twilight of its former greatness, bickering and fighting for the scant resources to hand. With no guiding will, no manifest destiny of lordship, mankind is left in turmoil. Even Earth, the bedrock on which humanity’s Empire was founded is gripped in the throes of generation-long intercine war. The foul aliens who had been held back by the might of the Iron Men and the Stone Men surge forth from their havens and lairs, destroying mankind’s defenses, killing or enslaving the Emperor’s wards. Mankind is engulfed by a plague of mutation, physical deviants and men possessed of psychic talents appear throughout the galaxy bringing more havoc with them. With no over-reaching authority, these lost souls and psykers sprawl unchecked across the human race. It is at this time that the Emperor reveals his true nature and sets about his plans of deliverance from anarchy.

For the last ten thousand years we have been in the glorious Age of the Imperium, the Reign of the Beneficent Emperor of Mankind. Using his vast intellect and knowledge of ages past, the Emperor creates a race of warriors to quell the warring factions on Earth, renaming our homeworld Terra and affirming its place as the center of the known galaxy. Having established rulership over Mankind’s birth-world, the Emperor sets about to the re-creation of Mankind’s righteous fate. With his Legions of Space Marines, the Emperor leads the Great Crusade of Reconquest. It is a long and arduous war, but world after world, seeing in the Emperor the rightful rule of mankind, falls to his service. 

The Space Marines, now numbered in their many thousands, establish outposts in the far reaches of the galaxy and from these bases on asteroids and moons and planet, launch forays into the darkness, bringing the Light and Word of the Emperor with them. Through this turmoil – the base treachery of the Warmaster and sacrifice of the Emperor, the contact with the noble offices of the Priesthood of Mars, the establishment of the Navis Nobilite and other noteworthy assemblages that we now take for granted as well as the purges of mutants and psykers – the Imperium is forged in blood and death, on a thousand thousand worlds the rightful and just rule of the Emperor is reasserted.

And so it is, ten thousand years since the Great Crusade we are able to live under the guiding Light of the Emperor, we have the guns of the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard and Adeptus Astartes, to guard against betrayal and foul aliens.

But the stories do not end there. For in our research, the Keepers of the Library Sanctus on Terra have uncovered many forgotten secrets, hidden lore, tales of treachery and heroism. Although we have not become, by no means, omniscient, we know many things that should not be known. For example, who few outside of this stone chamber have learned of the Betrayal of Luther, the Curse of the Red Thirst, the dark shrouded founding of the Sisterhood. Who has recited such tales of woe as can be found in the Legacies of Gathalamor, the unseen mysteries concerning the origins of the Space Marines Legions, the dark perils that await those who passed beyond the Gates of Varl, the names of the sinister architects of the Ymga Monolith. _

---

The quote implies the Emperor _ prepared _ the Earth for a group of humans who apparently weren't on Earth at the time.

Much has changed since then so I don't think some stuff in the quote should be taken with much weight.


----------



## locustgate

Angel of Blood said:


> I literally can't believe you are comparing clone troopers to the Astartes. By saying this, you are fully showing your immense and staggering bias to SW. I mean seriously.....


I'm not really sure if it's a bias towards clone troopers or it's just plane ignorance of the capabilities of both, I mean sure clone troopers would kick the ass of a single IG, 1vs1 but, 40k has far better better ships and far more people, if the Imperium could mass produce on the scale that SW did they would go nuts, ability to make almost all of their soldiers be clones.

Emperor really should read more about 40k and star wars instead of just skimming both


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## MEQinc

emporershand89 said:


> So can SW


Um, no. No faction in Star Wars is capable of turning every piece of bio-matter on a planet into fresh soldiers, no faction is capable of spawning entire armies out of the corpses of a single raid, no faction is possessed of literally (and I do mean literally) endless numbers of troops. But 40k has factions that do.



> So are the clones developed on Kamino from the DNA of Jango Fett,


The clones are not genetically-engineered post-human killing-machines. They are clones of a badass (but still completely mortal and 'normal' human) altered to alone for quicker growing and a couple other things. Space Marines are not human, they do not think like humans and they do not act like humans. They will do things humans would never conscience doing, they will do them faster than humans could possibly do them, and they will know no fear. They have two hearts and three lungs, their blood clots within moments and they can spit acid. How the fuck do you think the clones come close to that?!?



> My friend your previous three points have little merit to them. Star Wars can field the numbers in numerous battles. I encourage you to vivist www.Wookipedia.com, or try http://starwarsfans.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Fanpedia another well known Star Wars Wikipedia. Both will show the massive forces arrayed during the clone wars on multiple battlefields simultaneously.


And I encourage you to actually pay attention to 40k fluff, your points are beyond merit-less. You think clones are the equal of a Space Marine, when they are demonstratively not. You think armies numbering in the couple million range equals the output of the Imperial Guard, when it is not even the same as their output in relatively small campaigns.



> Additionally the clones of Kamino who became the Republics Storm Troopers were genetically modified humans that were designed to be the best. the fastest, healthiest, strongest, quick thinkers, good leaders, e.t.c. They may not be huge, like a SM, but they can make up for it. If your going to argue this point please tell me why you feel SM would trump the clones and not blunt trauma it.


Space Marines are faster, they can run at the speed of cars. They are healthier, they can shrug off most poisons and breath highly toxic atmospheres. They are stronger, they are capable of lifting several hundred pounds. They are quicker thinkers, they can identify, target and eliminate a threat in milliseconds. They are actually probably not better leaders, because they just don't get along well with humans, however they Know No Fear so that is better. A Space Marine could crush a clone troopers head with his bare hands, that blunt enough trauma for you?



> Yes, and......was that not clear enough to you that both sides couldn't use it.....????


Of course it was. My point was that there are times when you *want *to be able to use it. In those situations having the flexibility to 'merely' kill the planet is very helpful.



> The SW movies tend to not align with the SW cannon lore.


As others have said, the Star Wars movies are higher ca*n*on than any other lore.



locustgate said:


> I mean sure clone troopers would kick the ass of a single IG, 1vs1


I'm not sure its as clear cut as that. Sure the clones are supposed to be excellent soldiers (whether they really are is debatable) but the 'average' Imperial Guardsmen is pretty badass too. If you take the Cadians to be average (and given that they are the default models I think that's fair) than the superiority of the clone troopers becomes questionable. They may be well trained and basically raised from birth to fight, but then so are the Cadians. After all _"Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet."_


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## locustgate

MEQinc said:


> I'm not sure its as clear cut as that. Sure the clones are supposed to be excellent soldiers (whether they really are is debatable) but the 'average' Imperial Guardsmen is pretty badass too. If you take the Cadians to be average (and given that they are the default models I think that's fair) than the superiority of the clone troopers becomes questionable. They may be well trained and basically raised from birth to fight, but then so are the Cadians. After all _"Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet."_


The Fett clones are genetically modified, faster, smarter although that's not really saying much, and more aggressive than the average human. Then they get training thrown on top of that, and most clones can field strip by the time they are born.


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## Garrak

40k already has a brain washed clone army with training from hell - Death Korps of Krieg. SW armed forces also lack the sheer insanity of the 40k ones (Glory to the first man to die! = not even remotely sane) that allows them to adsorb ludicrous amounts of casualties. 

As for their planet killing potential? Who cares. When you invade someone, you plan to take their stuff and use it yourself. If you blow up every planet you find then you'll find out how logistics can really bite you in the ass (because relying 100% on the supply train coming from home is a very bad move). I mean even the Despoiler doesn't blow up every planet he sees and the guy's the biggest asshole 40k has.

I really love both settings but 40k simply has the muscle and sheer insanity to beat the crap out of any SF it runs into (it helps when your setting has elements from every SF ever in it).


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## Biellann

I have skipped a lot of the discussion, so sorry if I am regurgitating stuff already said.
The SW movies are the highest level of canon. There are various levels below that. Reference


Now for my own personal thoughts:
The Jedi's equivalent in the W40K universe would be the imperial assassins.
The best match for Stormtroopers/Clone Troopers would probably be Tau, for the troops themselves and the tanks/walkers a mix between Tau and IG.

Now for who would win, well SW vs the entire W40K verse, a definite win to W40K. However, the SW verse in a war with one or two factions of W40K, then it would be a close thing.


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## Kettu

Malus Darkblade said:


> 3rd ed Rule book: The Journal of Keeper Cripias
> 
> 
> -SNIP-
> 
> The quote implies the Emperor _ prepared _ the Earth for a group of humans who apparently weren't on Earth at the time.
> 
> Much has changed since then so I don't think some stuff in the quote should be taken with much weight.


I didn't know that. I was thinking of 2nd ed fluff here, I wasn't even aware that 3rd had furthered it.

Thank you for that. :good:


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## emporershand89

Biellann said:


> The best match for Stormtroopers/Clone Troopers would probably be Tau, for the troops themselves and the tanks/walkers a mix between Tau and IG


Interesting point Biellann, I honestly never looked at it that way. Perhaps the GW writers drew idea's from Star Wars when making the Tau.


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## ArchonQueenKatlina

The Dark Eldar would win  simple fact of wed kidnap the Jedi then torture them then send them to slaanesh


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## emporershand89

But Archon they'd cut there way out and eat your guys alive. I think of all races Jedi would easily overpower the Dark Eldar. Though it would be interesting to see how a Jedi fairs in the Aren'a of Commorargh


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## Battman

Re-reading this old thread has caused me much joy hopefully this post will dredge it from the past into the glorious present, (in all its whiteness).

Now continue the fight what are your personal greivencess or opinions; WHO WILL WIN!!!!


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## Angel of Blood

Well.....that's some serious thread necromancy.


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## ntaw

^ so old I can't even remember how I voted.


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## Doom wolf

WH40K for the win.

The two have ridiculous power, but even the imperium has what the Star wars lack : utter ruthlessly.

Example : When Alderande was destroyed, everyone in the SW galaxy was shocked.

In the imperium, when a planet heavily populated was destroyed by exterminatus, _it was just tuesday_.

Also Space Marines are just ridiculously powerful and could murder every stormtrooper, who are an _elite force_ by SW standard.

Jedi are cool, but not invulnerable by far, and they aren't numerous enough to make a difference in the great scape. Maybe they can hit a few hard times, but eventually, attrition will take his toll, and the best will probably die by the hand of the librarium, Daemon or Tyranids or whatever.

I couldn't even laugh when I imagine a Walker against a titan. The Titans have just an insanely arsenal.

For the spatial combat, it's a little tighter, but not that much. Most of the WH40K fighters are just armed to the teeth and insanely numerous. The Tie fighter are also, but they aren't that tough. X-wing and Y-wing are more tough, but I won't see them as numerous enough to make the difference.

And Imperium still can just throw the next ten billions of cannon fodder.


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## Angel of Blood

Doom wolf said:


> WH40K for the win.
> 
> The two have ridiculous power, but even the imperium has what the Star wars lack : utter ruthlessly.
> 
> Example : When Alderande was destroyed, everyone in the SW galaxy was shocked.
> 
> In the imperium, when a planet heavily populated was destroyed by exterminatus, _it was just tuesday_.
> 
> Also Space Marines are just ridiculously powerful and could murder every stormtrooper, who are an _elite force_ by SW standard.
> 
> Jedi are cool, but not invulnerable by far, and they aren't numerous enough to make a difference in the great scape. Maybe they can hit a few hard times, but eventually, attrition will take his toll, and the best will probably die by the hand of the librarium, Daemon or Tyranids or whatever.
> 
> I couldn't even laugh when I imagine a Walker against a titan. The Titans have just an insanely arsenal.
> 
> For the spatial combat, it's a little tighter, but not that much. Most of the WH40K fighters are just armed to the teeth and insanely numerous. The Tie fighter are also, but they aren't that tough. X-wing and Y-wing are more tough, but I won't see them as numerous enough to make the difference.
> 
> And Imperium still can just throw the next ten billions of cannon fodder.


I'm giving you rep for the M Bison reference in there.


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## Serpion5

40k factions in any other sci fi setting will just... own everything. 

Pit the tyranids against the zerg or the arachnids and there can only be one outcome. 

Throw necrons against borg or cylons and there will only be one outcome. 

THe only 40k factions that might see defeat are the smaller ones like tau and MAYBE eldar. But if we're just talking 40k vs SW straight up? The SW factions don't have a chance. They'd be clinging to their own survival from the start under the onslaught of the Imperium alone, and that's before you even consider the orks, tyranids, Chaos and whatnot.


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## Angel of Blood

People seem to really just don't seem to appreciate the behemoth that the Imperium is. How ruthless it is, how uncompromising, powerful, unforgiving and just outright brutal. Not a single other Sci-Fi civilization even comes close to the Imperium.


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## LordNecross

Warhammer 40k for many reasons. Too much for SW to handle all at once. SW shit is already OP, but 40k takes it up to eleven, and depending on the sources SW is just outclassed in everything except reliable FTL.

How Powerful 40k stuff is varies from author to author, but even at its weakest Star Wars weapons only have a fraction of the damage output on space ship scale. Turbo Lasers in Star wars have maximum reported outputs only in the mega tons or kilo's, Probably Mega though. While the most powerful weapons in 40k (The most basic being the Nova cannon) have a calculated output of several peta tons depending on payload, with a maximum of 22 peta tons with an explosive payload, and 5 peta tons with a solid iron slug.

As for super weapons, 40k does it better. It takes a space station to do what a super dreadnaught can do in 40k (The Planet Killer anyone? Wasn't even as big as the Death Star)

Now another thing to note is Shielding for ships, The Imperium alone has shielding that can take massive amounts of abuse I think maybe a peta ton threshhold on the largest ships(I am unsure on this but I remember a comparison on another site, forgive any discrepancies here), while star wars vessels can not take nearly the same punishment.

I have even heard some crazy shit like ship combat happening at near light speeds, but I will place that in the extreme authors interprestations.

This is just the imperium, the crumbling, decaying Imperium. I don't want to imagine what other factions would do to SW.

I heard someone say the Tau and Eldar would have trouble, but I actually doubt that, just due to the fact they are both very potent forces, even for their size, and probably outclass SW on ground and in space as well. Numbers is really their only failing point.


Anyways, this is coming from a star wars fan. So I understand the potentials of both sides. And Star wars could win, but only in specific cases, and probably only when faced against single factions and even then only a few of the many. 

Like it was said before, it depends on the condition and time period of the factions as well.

Anyways its not really a fair comparison anyways.


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## Doom wolf

Angel of Blood said:


> People seem to really just don't seem to appreciate the behemoth that the Imperium is. How ruthless it is, how uncompromising, powerful, unforgiving and just outright brutal. Not a single other Sci-Fi civilization even comes close to the Imperium.


True.

Maybe we should create another thread : "Who can take WH40K ?":laugh:

I thinked of the Wolves/inhibitors from _revelation space_, then I realized that, tought impressive, they failed to eradicate an humanity who was unable to have FTL.

_ The Culture_, maybe, against the imperium, but I thinked of _the Diasporex_ and it seemed strangely the same. 

P.S.: The disaporex was a civilisation that crossed the Emperor Children and the Iron Hand Pre-Heresy, as you might guessed, it didn't end well for them...

Even the f...ing Zentraedi would be butchered in the long term. Sure, they vaporized the earth in 5 minutes and get cool mecha and all. But they still just have one fleet, and earth was undefended by any kind of defense except an mega cannon and the SDF-1.


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## hailene

God damn it. Why does the back button erase everything? That was a lot of work. I'll cite sources if anyone has any questions (like usual) about my numbers. Just ask.

Anyway, in a local sub-light fight, I'd give it to Star Trek over the Imperium.

In terms of ranges, we've seen (via dialogue) that Star Trek vessels can fight significantly over 200,000 kilometers. 

Acceleration is lopsided. The minimum figure for the refitted Enterprise (a ship well over a century out of date) is 3460g. This compares to Imperial capital ships which have 2-3gs and frigates with ~5gs of acceleration.

Firepower is significant. A fleet of 40 warships using conventional weapons was able to, in a single salvo, (which, mind you, take seconds to reload, not minutes or hours) wipe out 30% of the crust of a planet.

The Enterprise (again, a ship over a century out of date) was confronted with a planetary shield. It could have blasted through the shield, but the _collateral_ damage from destroying the shield would have wiped out all life on the planet.

Sensors are also completely different level. Star Trek sensors are notably faster than light. They're sensitive to track the position and trajectory of individual hydrogen atoms in space. This allowed them to track the path of a ship traveling through the area. They also can detect vessels from many light years away--as far as 40 light years. This is for both sublight and FTL vessels. Plus without the delicious vagaries psykers have to deal with.



LordNecross said:


> How Powerful 40k stuff is varies from author to author, but even at its weakest Star Wars weapons only have a fraction of the damage output on space ship scale. Turbo Lasers in Star wars have maximum reported outputs only in the mega tons or kilo's, Probably Mega though. While the most powerful weapons in 40k (The most basic being the Nova cannon) have a calculated output of several peta tons depending on payload, with a maximum of 22 peta tons with an explosive payload, and 5 peta tons with a solid iron slug.


I'd love to see the math on this. The asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was a "mere" 100 teratons. 22 petatons would be 220 times this. Why would you need cyclonic weapons when shooting a planet with your handy dandy Nova Cannon is all you need? (I know there would be reasons why, but I'm just doing a bit tongue and cheek here.)

Edit: Doing some calculations for fun. Let's do a high end figure. We know Nova Cannons move at a fraction of the speed of light...but let's say they go at the speed of light (for absolute top end figure). To get 5 petatons of kinetic energy....

A single Nova Cannon shell would have to weigh...465,000 tons. Since a ship typically has 20 Nova Cannon shots that's about 9.3 megatons...or about 23% of the total weight of an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser. Just for the Nova Cannon shells. Not the gun. Not the power generators to run it. Nothing.

Now for a more realistic speed...we understand they can travel tens of thousands of kilometers in a fraction of a second. The speed of light is ~300,000 km/s. So let's say it travels 30,000 kilometers in a third of a second. That's a solid 90,000 km/s. Not too shabby!

Pumping that into my calculator (I can do the math if you'd like) we get a mass of 5,165,432 tons (not kilograms, but tons) per a shell. Twenty of _these_ shells would be over two and a half times the weight of an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser!

I'd also like to say the laser for a ship noted to have "massive batteries" in _Prospero Burns_ was rated as a "mega-watt laser". Assuming by mega-watt it meant "5 megawatts", that'd take over 31.68 years to make one megaton worth of energy. Or roughly 316 billion years (about 23 times the age of the universe) to equal your single raw Nova Cannon slug.


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## Angel of Blood

From everything Star Trek I've seen though, the Federation just aren't on the attitude level needed to fight the Imperium. Being good, doing the right thing, protecting the innocent, finding peaceful compromises , not causing collateral, showing mercy. These are all pretty big hallmark traits by which the Federation damn near defines itself with.

The Imperium quite simply doesn't believe in anything. I just think the psychological impact of the Imperium alone and the size of it would shellshock the Federation. Imagine when the Imperium just launches it's all out assault as they are still trying to negotiate. Planets virus bombed, cyclonic torpedoes, these on the planets they just want to annihilate as a show of force. Factor in the assaults. Space Marines, how does any other sci-fi force counter Marines? Never mind the billions of guardsmen that will just be continuously thrown in. 

What counter does the ST universe have for psykers? The horror of facing psykers would break whole armies and fleets to those that have no experience of them. Got a Librarian or a sanctioned psyker, wandering through your cities, men, even your ships if they've teleported aboard, exploding men, mind controlling others, casting lightning and fire and god knows what else with their _minds_.

The psychological aspect of the Imperium is one of their most dangerous factors, this is an empire of zealots, dedicated to their God-Emperor, most of them knowing full well that they are destined to die. They aren't explorers, none of them are looking for peace. They are out to kill, take ground and secure new territory for the Imperium. They won't be looking to avoid collateral, they aren't going to be merciful, they are going to be brutal, blunt at times, surgical at others. They are used to fighting the horrors of the warp, the Necrons, servants of the Gods, Tyranids, Orks and others. The Peaceful explorers of the Federation would be like a holiday compared to their other enemies. Even once they show how formidable their ships are, it still just doesn't compare to the horror the rest of the galaxy is. 

And again. This is just the Imperium. Start throwing in Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons and others, and it's just laughable to think any other Universe could stand a fraction of a chance.


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## hailene

I was talking about purely in a tactical naval fight. The Imperium really has nothing to match, in my opinion. Straight up naval combat would be a massacre.

Star Trek computing power is probably magnitudes above what the Imperium could muster. The Federation developed a debilitating program to infect the Borg within a short period of time (days?) It didn't ultimately pan out, but the idea of destroying the Imperium's computer systems seems like an easy reality. 



Angel of Blood said:


> And again. This is just the Imperium. Start throwing in Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons and others, and it's just laughable to think any other Universe could stand a fraction of a chance.


We're messing with other factions?

One letter. Q.

The debate is no fun when you throw beings that can literally rewrite the universe with a thought though, I guess.


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## Angel of Blood

We've got no idea how the Star Trek weaponry would work against Void Shields though, or how the Imperiums would work through Star Trek shields. This will always be one of the biggest problems. Teleporting and Beaming as Star Trek does, aren't really the same thing. Can have all the firepower you want, but get an Astartes boarding party on a Fed ship, and they are quite simple screwed. 

As for the computing powers, the Imperiums is so backwards and not linked, that I doubt anyone could take the whole thing down. 

Once again though. I just don't see Starfleet as having the attitude needed to take the Imperium on. There is nothing I have seen, that would suggest they are capable of the violence and brutality that would be required to take the Imperium out of the game. 

Just think of the carnage Assassins would cause as well. 

The other problem is, neither side are going to be able to tell where the other is coming from. The Imperium don't have sensors to detect vessels going at warp speed like the Star Trek ones do. But then the Star Trek universe would have no way of detecting vessels in the Warp. The Star Trek fleets aren't the type to just appear above Imperial planets and launch ground assaults or bombard the entire planet. It's not in their ethos or character. The Imperium however, will, in a heartbeat. So the problem the Federation has, is that it may have superior ships in engagements. But they would have to be in the same place the Imperium is attacking. Sure they can respond, unless they are lucky enough to have enough ships around that sector. If not, by that point they react and arrive, the ground assault has started and that planets probably fucked.


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## Doom wolf

hailene said:


> We're messing with other factions?
> 
> One letter. Q.
> 
> The debate is no fun when you throw beings that can literally rewrite the universe with a thought though, I guess.


Ah yes ! Q. !

I wonder how well his mind would fare against Chaos, considering how he's fascinated playing god with humankind, I wonder how much he could stand uncorrupted against Chaos. But you should let the global reality warper aside, because their power are just really inquantifiable.

Star Trek Federation would'nt not fare very long, I fear. Even the Romulan, the Klingon or the Borg are midly aggressive by 40K standards.

But I remember another post on the same veins which is both a good resume of my thought and is quite entertaining :




> Now I'm just going to ignore the reality warper wank on both sides because that will lead us to f*ck all, nowhere. Instead I will focus PURELY on conventional militaries, as these are my forte as I find warfare both fascinating and a worthy subject of study.
> 
> Conventional military wise, 40k stomps with sheer numbers and the fact that it is a terraton per shot in space universe going up against a megaton per shot in space universe. Not to mention that by 40k standards, Star Trek cultures are heinously decadent and would be eaten apart by Chaos. Star Trek is tolerant of other religions, which means it is automatically doomed against genestealer cult and chaos cult infiltration; where their namby pamby equality and acceptance of other religions will allow these dangerous cults to infiltrate most every major society and bring it all crumbling down. On the ground Star Trek is an absolute *joke*, as in Napoleonic France would stomp any ground force ever seen in the entire history of the series.
> 
> http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/index.html
> 
> Notice how Star Trek lacks tanks, artillery, armored personnel carriers, most any form of ground weapon save for small-arms, body armor (they don't even have stab-proof vests!), heavy guns, or hell; ANYTHING THAT MAKES FOR A DECENT GROUND ARMY. Star Trek is a good series, but it's approach to warfare is the most laughably ass backwards and blatantly incorrect one I've ever seen in anything ever. Even within the series the fact that most battles take place at knife range between men in pajamas with no form of heavy weapons support makes no god damned sense given that they have the technology base to produce such heavy weapons.
> 
> However this can be explained; simply put the nations of the Star Trek Milky way have let their navy have far too much control over the military. You've all heard of star fleet right? But tell me, have any of you ever heard of a "Star Army?" My personal theory is that Star Fleet and it's counterpart organization lobbied for the dissolving of useful ground armies by exploiting gullible politicans by throwing buzz words around to convince them that pouring money into a ground force was no longer necessary so that they could get more funds. Addittionally; it's mentioned several times in Star Trek that the Federation, the main power of the galaxy; doesn't really even believe in the concept of purpose built warships. Their navy is essentially an armed merchant marine.
> 
> Also, each of the large batteries on an Imperial Battleship can spew out 100 or so terratons of firepower (by comparison, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs only put off about the equivalent of one terraton) per shot. Accepted calculations for Phaser batteries on Spacebattles.com and on Stardestroyer.net put them at 24ish megatons per shot against shields, and substantially less that against physical matter due to their obviously reduced performance against hulls. Given that Star Fleet has only a thousand or two large ships at most, this means that one Imperial Battleship's lance battery will have more firepower than the whole of Star Fleet. Think about that.
> 
> Now for military-industrial capacity. The UFP has 150 major planets under it's belt at maximum, the Imperium of Man has one million planets under it's belt at an absolute minimum, some of which have trillions of people willing to die to kill the heathens and aliens and others have been converted entirely towards manufacturing purposes. Despite anything that may be said about replicators; in-series showings display that Star Fleet needs years to construct it's ships at exceedingly vulnerable ship yards, and because it's military is composed entirely of officers during peacetime, it takes quite a while to create new soldiers, while the Imperium can just send out draft cards. Even a small portion of the Imperium would outnumber and drastically outproduce any nation seen in Star Trek.
> 
> The Borg are often hailed as a saving grace, but their adaptation abilities have been shown to be overwhelmed by sheer brute force, as seen when Species-8472 completely and utterly demolished them and did so repeatedly, and the amount of brute force that any given faction in 40k can output puts the biggest guns seen in Star Trek to shame. Not to mention, the Borg's numbers, while massive to the numerically pitiful factions of Star Trek; wouldn't even rate next to the Tau or Eldar, much less the big players like Chaos, the Imperium, the Necrons, the Orks, and Tyranids. The borg will be crushed handily; especially since they're so bad at ground combat they don't even bring god damned ranged weapons and instead amble slowly towards their foes; and unlike Star Trek; most everyone in 40k has got bladed weapons, and one would do well to remember how easily Worf cut apart huge numbers of drones with his Blade. I'd wager a single Hormagaunt could scythe down dozens of drones.
> 
> In terms of fighting will; even the Klingons would be considered pansies when it comes to how long they'll keep on fighting in 40k. Even the Tau would consider them a soft people. In 40k, nearly every faction will fight to the annhilation or conquest of their foes and will not stop for anything short of absolute victory or defeat, the concept of "Peace treaties" and "Negotiation" is scoffed at in all but the most extreme of circumstances, with most factions preferring to engage in blood baths that will lead to billions if not trillions of people on both sides dying at regular intervals for ultimately strategically irrelevant tasks.
> 
> Contrast with Star Trek where even the loss of a few thousand people is considered a great tragedy. Not long after the Imperium completely obliterates the first Starfleet planet it finds and bombs the worlds to ashes and butchers the men, rapes the women, and enslaves the children; the Federation will be crying for uncle and asking for peace; which the Imperium will respond to by dropping an Exterminatus fleet above Earth and then bombing it into a molten ruin and delivering an ultimatum to any colony worlds left; Surrender unconditionally, accept Imperial doctrine on all accounts (including giving up this nonsense about religious freedom and killing all aliens within it's borders), or face the Exterminatus of every single world they own. I don't think any talk of "fighting for freedom" will last very long after the obliteration of any central command structure Star Fleet has.


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## hailene

Angel of Blood said:


> We've got no idea how the Star Trek weaponry would work against Void Shields though, or how the Imperiums would work through Star Trek shields.


We just assume there's no magic mumbo jumbo where we assume if the Federation shields can withstand say 500 million terajoules (tossing numbers around) of energy in ST they can withstand 500 million terajoules of WH40k weaponry. We just assume there's not some weird science technobabble where a las gun is suddenly 500 billion times more effective because...science.



Angel of Blood said:


> As for the computing powers, the Imperiums is so backwards and not linked, that I doubt anyone could take the whole thing down.


Piece by piece. I'm sure they could scramble the noosphere or network of computers. Heck, even hack into each machine spirit of the vessels or planetary network. Look at the scrap-code on Calth and Mars during the Heresy. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Once again though. I just don't see Starfleet as having the attitude needed to take the Imperium on. There is nothing I have seen, that would suggest they are capable of the violence and brutality that would be required to take the Imperium out of the game.


Section 31.



Angel of Blood said:


> Can have all the firepower you want, but get an Astartes boarding party on a Fed ship, and they are quite simple screwed.


You have to get ludicrously close for a boarding action to happen. Probably within a few tens of kilometers. Even if you multiply that by 10 (so hundreds), there's no way. Federation ships have thousands of times the acceleration of Imperial capital ships. It would be like trying to catch a fighter jet by walking at it. If the Jet doesn't want you close (and it doesn't, since it outranges Imperial ships, anyway), you're not going to catch it.



Angel of Blood said:


> If not, by that point they react and arrive, the ground assault has started and that planets probably fucked.


Less likely. There's an episode where the Enterprise fires a wide-beam stunning shot that stuns an entire portion of a city.



Angel of Blood said:


> But then the Star Trek universe would have no way of detecting vessels in the Warp.


We don't know this for a fact. It's a fair assumption...

Though, then again, Trek ships have been known to be able to scan other dimensions (both time and other realities, like subspace), so maybe they could. It's a toss up either way. It'd depend on the author writing the story.



Doom wolf said:


> Even the Romulan, the Klingon or the Borg are midly aggressive by 40K standards.


How could you say the Borg are less aggressive. They're as aggressive, if not more than, any faction in WH40k. They're willing to tackle any species (even species outside our universe, like species 8472!) in their bid for perfection.

The Tyranids come close, but there's clearly something up with them and the Necrons.



Doom wolf said:


> 40k stomps with sheer numbers and the fact that it is a terraton per shot in space universe going up against a megaton per shot in space universe


Source?



Doom wolf said:


> tar Trek is tolerant of other religions, which means it is automatically doomed against genestealer cult


Federation sensor technology is much more powerful than you think. When the Enterprise-E is dragged in the wake of a time-traveling anomaly where the Borg take over Earth, it is able to, within seconds, to detect the number of life forms on the Borgified Earth (9 billion) and determine all of them are Borg.



Doom wolf said:


> chaos cult infiltration


This I am less sure about. I'd agree the Federation has little reason to stop the Chaos infiltration initially, but the Federation isn't stupid enough to let it run rampent indefinitely. Not when it's clear they're offering a present danger to society.

Plus there's a whole lot less for the Chaos to grab onto. Life isn't an impressive autocracy where demand greatly outstrips supply (minus on commodities like, you know, suffering).



Doom wolf said:


> Notice how Star Trek lacks tanks, artillery, armored personnel carriers, most any form of ground weapon save for small-arms, body armor (they don't even have stab-proof vests!), heavy guns, or hell; ANYTHING THAT MAKES FOR A DECENT GROUND ARMY


It's because 1. Budgets (boo, real life!) and 2. Large ground armies are backwards. Not when you can, with pin point accuracy, disable large swathes of troops. It's a lot better than Imperial aiming where "somewhere in this general region" is the best you can offer.



Doom wolf said:


> Also, each of the large batteries on an Imperial Battleship can spew out 100 or so terratons


Source?



Doom wolf said:


> t to mention, the Borg's numbers, while massive to the numerically pitiful factions of Star Trek; wouldn't even rate next to the Tau or Eldar, much less the big players like Chaos, the Imperium, the Necrons, the Orks, and Tyranids.


Where did this come from? The Imperium probably has...if we take a million worlds and say ~33.333 worlds per sector (we've seen sectors with MUCH MUCH more, so this is a high-end figure), that leaves us with 3000 sectors. With a battle fleet average size of 50-75 ships of all classes (destroyers to battleships), 225,000 ships. The number is probably much less, closer to maybe 60,000 as there's probably less than 3000 sectors and many of the fleets are probably less than this.

The Borg on the other hand, are truly a galactic power. Voyager is stranded on the other side of the galaxy and making its way home, sends a probe ahead of itself. With this tiny probe tracking a tiny swathe of Borg space (just a few thousands of solar systems), it counts "millions" of Borg cubes. And this is just a tiny fraction of Borg space.

I won't touch the rest of the article since it's just following some really broad strokes.

It's really frustrating when someone writes on a VS thread while only knowing one of the universes super well.


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## LordNecross

When did Star trek become a part of this?

Also Nova Cannon is a Rail gun that fires and Object at near Relativistic speeds. I think it fires an it an roughly .75% the speed of light. So the round while still big, doesn't have to be asteroid big to bust a planet.

Why it isn't used on Planets is beyond me. Its just over sight by Games workshop, because they don't really think about the random crap they pump out.


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## hailene

LordNecross said:


> When did Star trek become a part of this?


When Doomwolf asked if anyone could take WH40k.



LordNecross said:


> I think it fires an it an roughly .75% the speed of light.


Source?



LordNecross said:


> So the round while still big, doesn't have to be asteroid big to bust a planet.


How heavy do you figure a round is?

And could you provide a source for this number, too?


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## LordNecross

hailene said:


> When Doomwolf asked if anyone could take WH40k.
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
> 
> 
> 
> How heavy do you figure a round is?
> 
> And could you provide a source for this number, too?


http://forums.tauonline.org/40k-universe/49706-nova-cannon-firepower-calculation.html

I also Don't think Star Trek would have any chance to stand up against SW, let alone 40k


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## hailene

LordNecross said:


> http://forums.tauonline.org/40k-universe/49706-nova-cannon-firepower-calculation.html
> 
> I also Don't think Star Trek would have any chance to stand up against SW, let alone 40k


Why on Earth does he assume the shell is 1200 meters long?

He has no canonnical footing to assume any dimension of the shell.


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## LordNecross

He isn't the only one who came up with this calculation. I assume its a combination of using proportions of the models, the Nova Cannon's gun on the Model, doing math on the board game distances calculated into Kilometers. And stuff that is said in Battlfleet rules and fluff.


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## hailene

LordNecross said:


> He isn't the only one who came up with this calculation. I assume its a combination of using proportions of the models, the Nova Cannon's gun on the Model, doing math on the board game distances calculated into Kilometers. And stuff that is said in Battlfleet rules and fluff.


That doesn't mean he's right.

We have no idea a Nova cannon shell takes up the entire width of the cannon.

We have no idea the length of the shell.

His calculations are nothing more than a mental exercise. There's no way we could use his numbers.


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## Squire

How long until the Mechanicum get hold of a hyper drive and reverse engineer it?

No reason the SW universe couldn't be doing similar things I suppose

40k has dakka flyrants, wave serpents and thunderwolf cavalry


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## Vaz

Isn't that image fan made anyway?


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## el_machinae

Squire said:


> How long until the Mechanicum get hold of a hyper drive and reverse engineer it?


I'm reasonably sure they couldn't


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## Doom wolf

Okay, since I'm responsible for this thread derailement, I invite you to follow this discussion here :

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2069786#post2069786


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## GabrialSagan

Considering that in Attack of the Clones the Geonosians cloned 1,200,000 troopers and they thought this was an impressive number. I think 40k wins with sheer numbers. The Imperium considers the loss of millions of troops as a statistical expectancy. The Imperial Guard has countless billions of troops who are much better armed than SW stormtroopers. Has anyone ever seen a blaster blow off someone's arm? Lasguns might get a bad rep in the game and among the fans, but whenever the fluff describes the effects of an Imperial Guardsmen's lasgun shooting an unarmored human the results are gruesome.

It might be a tie in space, I haven't read anything that would make me think that an Imperial Cruiser could not hold its own against a star destroyer, but on the ground the 40k factions have a decisive edge.


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## LordNecross

GabrialSagan said:


> Considering that in Attack of the Clones the Geonosians cloned 1,200,000 troopers and they thought this was an impressive number. I think 40k wins with sheer numbers. The Imperium considers the loss of millions of troops as a statistical expectancy. The Imperial Guard has countless billions of troops who are much better armed than SW stormtroopers. Has anyone ever seen a blaster blow off someone's arm? Lasguns might get a bad rep in the game and among the fans, but whenever the fluff describes the effects of an Imperial Guardsmen's lasgun shooting an unarmored human the results are gruesome.
> 
> It might be a tie in space, I haven't read anything that would make me think that an Imperial Cruiser could not hold its own against a star destroyer, but on the ground the 40k factions have a decisive edge.


Besides the fact an Imperial Cruiser is magnitudes bigger? Has more guns and shielding?

Star Destroyers are roughly the size of a standard Imperial Frigate to Imperial Light Cruiser.

Of course bigger Dreadnaught Class Star Destroyers get close to roughly cruiser size. Mind you this is the dreadnaught.

This is just size comparison though. In terms of fire power, there isn't anything definitive for Warhammer 40k, but err on the side of ridiculous for 40k.


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