# players taking it way too far...



## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

So this happend this weeked during our weekly friendly meet up games. First some background.

One of our players that has been with us since we first got into 40k is pretty well known for taking any rules calling on him personally, even when he is wrong about half the time. He tries to help out by quoting the rule that you are using since we normally have a few players that are pretty new to the game but like I said about half the time he is wrong and gets fed up after you call him on it and the rule hurts whatever he was about to do. This being said he still is a decent player and enjoys the game alot, sometimes going a bit too far and yelling in victory if his unit of CSM manages to kill a few guys with shooting or what not. 

Player 2 has been coming for a few months, we taught him how to play and he has gotten to the point where he knows most all of the rules and where to find the ones he doesn't have memorized. He also doesn't like being wrong on the rules since he prides himself in learning them pretty fast. He is just on the verge of being a rules lawyer but I think we can save him from crossing that line.

So the first player is talking about squadron rules since player 2 has a few of them roaming the board. Player 1 makes a miss speak about how pens and glances effect the unit as a whole and player 2 is quick to comment on how they really work. The very next turn, with squadron rules in his mind, he immobilizies a Dreadnaught and says it's wrecked. This sets Player 1 off, calling out rules and being way too defensive about the whole thing while Player 2 is trying to defend his postion. Needless to say it escalated pretty fast before anyone else could get a word in edge wise player 1 is already packing his stuff up and saying he isn't coming back.

This argument has been brewing for a while but it really is a shame that a friendly game can explode to such levels that a player might quit. After a night to cool down they are on speaking terms again but I really don't know what to do with two bickering players that I have got to watch now while trying to play my own game.

Anyone else lose players or even friends to rules arguments?


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

no, never to that extreme.

can l ask how old are they? l can understand if there 10 or 12 but if there over 20 it seem very odd and a bit well over the top.

the only time any one has storm off in one of my games was when, l was being a dick with 6 leamon russ vs a dick player with chaos "Space Wolfs".


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

Everyone is over the age of 20. This is the first time it has gotten that bad but if this keeps up I might have to either keep them seperated and not have them play games against each other or tell one of them to stop coming.... which I really don't want to do. The game is meant to be fun...


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

tell player one to stop being a bitch. tell player two that player one is a bitch and its ok.
if player 1 has been playing for a while and player 2 is new then player two is less responsible for knowing the rules as much as a player that is a verteran (even if he is proud of his rule learning ability).

Remind them both of the most important rule of WH...have fun

people that pack their shit up half way through a game of 40k are just lame assholes anyway. unless someone is making fun of your momma you dont have an excuse to leave a game halfway through.

Im 6 beers in to my evening so sorry if that isnt 'nuff for ya.... fuck player 1


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I can't say I have seen anything like that before... but that still sucks. There is no reason to get mad about a game. It is a social event after all, and it is supposed to be a pleasant time, win or loose. I suppose everyone is different.


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## dspadres (Jan 10, 2011)

I see this happening all the time from people who already lack socialization skills spending too much time in their game store and lose whatever's left. Sore winner/losers, rules nazis, etc., suck the fun out of the game.

I did end up in an argument with one dude over the firing arc of my vindicator's cannon. For some reason he didn't want to believe that the gun has a 45 degree arc because the weapon couldn't physically move to prove it like sponson weapons can. After about 15 minutes of this we got back into the game but he was pouting for the rest of the game.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

l am sorry but player 1 should not leave then and should know better.

if he keep's acting like that then for the good of the group he must be removed.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

> escalated pretty fast before anyone else could get a word in edge wise


Without what was said then it's hard to judge if player 1 or 2 was in the wrong. My dealings with rules lawyers is when openly challenged they tend to get loud if there is no judge to make the call. In the event 2 are playing each other they yell at and be little each other until someone gives in or quits.

Most likely both are at fault and they should have handled it like adults instead of children.


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

Honestly I think both were at fault and handled the situation very poorly. If it continues one or both might get a banning for a bit to chill out and have a discussion about what we expect from our player base.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

I think they both need to get laid ,
Have a word with both of them , explain " good sportmanship " and how such childish behavoiur srews the evening up for all not just them .

If you run a regular group of players , get toghether and vote a DM ( for want of a better word) his ruling is final . It can rotate so no one person does it all the time .


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

Both Player's need to man up and stop being childish. There is obviously a deeper issue here or the escalation would not have happened so quickly. Arguements are going to happen and it may be with someone you don't like, but you can't let it get to that point over a single game.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Never lost friends over a game. I am more laid back with concerns to gaming and just take it leisurely. Some people need to remember that they are spending their time playing a game that consists of lots of plastic toy soldiers. If you feel the need to lose friends over that then you sound like the kind of person I do not wish to fraternise with.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Nope, I've never seen it devolve into that with anybody, especially yours truly.Whether or not I'm certain they're correct, I usually concede after maybe a brief argument that can be exchanged in several sentences because no game is worth what little dignity you got. 

It really has me scratching my head that you could lose a friend over a game. My Smurfs/Nids friend is a walking rulebook and kicks my ass virtually every time we play, and while I dread fighting him in a game that doesn't stop us from being friends outside of the tabletop.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

as i always say in situations like these, forgive & forget. Its not like this stopped a guy winning the biggest 40k tourney on this planet or a game for hundreds or thousands of pounds. Its best to shake hands then go to the pub


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

Wow, my friend and i can get pretty picky on distances, line of sight, cover save allowances and the odd rule, but after the game we forget and carry on. But we just grab the book, read, argue our case for our interpretation, play then get another beer. 
These guys need to man up, and like has been said, get laid. Its a game, there is a rule book for a reason, its pretty big and cant be lost...well not easily unless the girlfriend is in a bad mood.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

if they start gettin loud again hit them on the head with a rule book, my guys always start to argue after a bit and get hit with rule books, the large fantasy one normally works the best tbh


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

Or, if violence was not your preferred answer, how about threatening to take away their models till they learn to play nice?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Just light them on fire. Fire fixes everything.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well player 1 must be told to grow up and act like an adult, if he can't punt his arse to the curb.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

When in doubt, roll a dice.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

hit them with a rule book. . . . a point i decided to make twice


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Yup, I can relate. I've quit 6 hobby stores all over Montreal, because people claim to know the rules better than me :ireful2:. See, the trick is to make a falsified rulebook. I use the fake rulebook to prove my opponent wrong, and then he insists on consulting his own. then, the other players get involved, all using their own rulebooks, and claim that mine isnt valid. That's when I get angry. I tell them that my rulebook is legit, and that if they don't want to play by the rules, I'm not going to play with them. Of course, I was lying about all of this, so... good day to you all.


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## Ikruch (May 18, 2011)

Just light them on fire. Fire fixes everything.
-Sigged


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

We will see if anything happens this weekend or not. I really hope it was an isolated case.

I do like the hit them with the rule book idea though...


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## wolfmanss (May 27, 2011)

Oh boy, i know this...

I got two gaming buddies.

1. RL freind - Is former Tau, now space marines: -Rule Lawyer never lets off rules, likes to be side judge, tailors lists, and does everything to ensure a legal win (as in knowing your codex better than yourself, note: he is a very clever dude).

2. My girlfreind: She is a casual player, like me she likes to have won a turn of assault or shooting, dosent matter what the end outcome is. But she dosent want to be rulelaywered since she is dyslexic she REALLY dosent wanna be rulelawyered. I admit her fuse can be short.

But ever since we started playing, my mate, wiped us out every game with his ability to be all over the board with rules, and just playing for wins. Wheras we play for fun. It has just turned the mood uglier in my oppinion. And it dosent help when he claims he is loosing soooo badly when he defenetly isnt! Belive me he isnt like this in anything else. This behavior was and is only present in warhammer.

And oboy does my gf get pissed at him with his none casual attitude, even when theorycrafting her eldar units, he finds a way to tell her "well i can just do this xxxx" "Nah, id just go like that xxxx" as in it were a IQ test for a 500.000$ gift certificate . When playing against her he really pushes the buttons, he knew she was gonna field viehecles in a game he went "well im just gonna try Lascannons devastators today, btw im not tailoring".
He also came up with so much rule talk/corrections that she forgot what her general plan for the game was. And she just got wiped again, and again. With her ending up yelling at him, i do nothing cus she is right, and she can defenetly speak for herself i can tell you that 
But i only get annoyed by my dice rolls, and only hopes he gets better with this "competitionhammer" attitude. I can only advise the others to say enough is enough and pack their stuff if too much rulelawyering occurs etc. Better a quick game than a good rl freindship. 

And i would wish i could do something, but. Its just how it is, thats his way of warhammer, when he asks who wants to play in the club, alot of people starts to hold back. Guess im not the only one who wants to play warhammer with the book constantly in my left hand. :/

Even confronted him with this, he just got sour and goes defensive. Me not being much of a pushy guy, i can only say. "Ok, sure whatever, just my pow"

This might bite me in my ass, so mate if your listening in on this post. Its how it is, ive confronted you with this before and gave you some freindly guidelines, but do what you want. Anyhow its a good example of good turning bad in a hobby of casual fun.


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## Jormungandr (May 11, 2011)

The worst thing in a gaming club is a ruleslawyer who tailors.

When I was running an after-school club a couple yeas ago, because we all met up during lunch in the room of the teacher who set up the in-school club we developed from (this teacher was a massive WH and 40k fan, played a lot of whfrp, too, lol), I and my friend who helped run it, said people should work on their lists during lunch, feeling free to ask for help (which got tiring pretty quick), but when they get to the after-school club, hand me or my mate a copy of the list, and if people didnt play according to their army lists, they forfeited the offending units. This was our version of "hand of god", minus the smashing of models.

TBH, theres not much need for rules lawyers in a friendly atmosphere, and they do little for the overall experience of the game, imo, but theres very little you can do to counter this, short of having a designated "Game Master" keep an eye on a few "suspect" peoples games.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

it has to be a proper one ! ! ! not the little half sized ones

ie this one http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440006a&prodId=prod800009a


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

I know tons of players like that. I quit 4 years ago because of silly arguments that got way to heated(several actually became fistfights). I've found a more casual group now wich is why i'm back into the game. Now i only play for fun. Age is not always the factor, many of the players i met when i first played were extremely arrogant and unable to accept that they could be wrong ever. I like the idea of having a DM or moderator, we have done that for bigger games to make it quicker.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Ah I do miss these kinds of arguments; mainly because I'm old enough now to have far more in my life that just School and 40K. I think we can all tell a story of plenty of tantrums in our years.

I will say though, this made my day - There's nothing that pleases me more than the socially inept coming to sissy slap fights over a game of miniature soldiers. I mean really, I know we aren't Don Juan's when it comes to the social department but come on...:headbutt: 

Anyway back to my two pennies: I can understand Player 2's view point - learning rules is not easy in a short amount of time, and at the end of the day the rules are the boundaries you use to play the game - no one likes a rules lawyer but sometimes they are a necessary evil: Afterall, to learn the game and truly capitalize on things you need to know how the game is meant to play consistently. DM's / Mods / Judges help here. I think though, from the sound of it Player 2 went about stating rules the wrong way and stated them "Matter of factly." Which, to be honest winds anyone up. It's a direct insult on peoples understanding and ego no matter how you put it. 

As for Player 1 - yeah he's really out of order here as well. Scooping and storming when your older than 10 years old is pretty bad even for the worst of us. I mean, we've all had our huff moments, but I never understand the threat of "I'm never coming back." Everyone and anyone I've ever played or seen playing is not gods gift to the game with hordes of worshipers and groupies that makes or breaks the club they play at. It could just be I enjoy challenging the alpha-dogs of any clubs I go to if I think they need taking down a level from their social pissing box. 

Really I'd just say next time you see either of them that they are a) Replaceable when it comes to 40k, b) They lost everyone's respect because of their actions. Talk to both of them and call them out on the whole incident - this is where you come in and be the Man of the whole situation: hear both sides of the story then give them both your views - tell Player 1 he was childish and Player 2 is dangerously close to being on the bottom of everyone's Invite list for rules lawyering: the worst thing to do is be passive about it all and try "ride it out" - nothing gets resolved and the hurt just festers. You'd be surprised how quickly people change the attitudes they have when you say straight to them about how people actually perceive them and their behavior. Don't take gibberish or whine from either of them and lay down how it is. It quickly stops any delusions they may have of themselves.

Anyway, hope your resolve it all - nothing worse than not being able to play with people because someone couldn't play nice. :laugh:


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

unfortunately ive become one of the major staples of my favorite gaming group and i am the de facto "rules guy" - lately ive gotten to the point of just doing one of the following 1) "go check the rulebook" (if its a stupid question and that they should know, like 'do MCs allow armor saves?')

2) "Shut the F*CK up!..." *proceed to diffuse the situation, usually asking for one of the players to find what page the rule is on and the IMMEDIATELY hand me the rulebook - dont let them read it, it just adds to the problem from what ive learned.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Drannith said:


> We will see if anything happens this weekend or not. I really hope it was an isolated case.
> 
> I do like the hit them with the rule book idea though...


Drannith, tell them to man up and roll it off, or take the fight outside.


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## broran (Feb 1, 2011)

i played a gk player who tried to argue that because my hive guards were against a piece of cover that was between the guard and its target he could take a cover save (the exact opisite of the actual rule (target has to be against or in cover to recieve a save)) but thats about it


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Right, in my book. "Rulez ninja'ing" is a poor thing.. but anyway. 

If two players cannot get on, and one of them is a veteran they should know allot better, but nothing changes over night, Iam a big fan of codes of conduct for clubs and sportsmanship awards... means there is something to be gained by being nice, it helps to keep the competitiveness in bounds, and makes even the most rulez obsssed person another set of rules to worry about.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Ninjurai said:


> Remind them both of the most important rule of WH...


Buy models?


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## KjellThorngaard (Oct 4, 2010)

When i first started 40K there were two "special" players at the store I played at. Both had been playing a while, but never bought new models. each had one army that they knew pretty well. Neither liked to lose, especially to new players, and one for sure cheated to win. He would "quote" rules to his benefit, he had an infinity of rerolls for everything, and handed me my shiny metal plus primer butt over and over. Then I learned the rules and what night the regular players played...

Needless to say the first time I spanked that guy and called his cheating, I never saw him again. Him or his closet boy friend. The lived to win because they had little else going on. It was kinda sad, but the rest of the gamers there went out of their way to welcome new guys and help them enjoy the game.

In this case, tell them to grow up or find a new place to play. Rules lawyers suck, and need reminding of that fact. If all else fails, hit 'em with the book!


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

So far nothing else has come about so things are pretty good. We only met 3 times a month now to so it gives us a breather from everything... that and Arumichic would kill me if we went back to 4 times a month.


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Hey, I want at least 1 weekend for other stuffs....like maybe more geekdom. >.<
But at least for us to get out and do something, or go exercise. *pokes Drannith's flub*
No offense to anyone that plays with us, but it can get quite annoying if people come over every weekend...too many loud noises; breaks are nice.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

What's considered a rule nazi? I try to stick to the rules as best and as close as possible. Letting things slide in a game is something I dont really find myself doing unless I know it definitely wont effect the end result of the game. Does that make me one? I'm not sure I want to start going to gamestores and playing people I dont know if most people play by half the rules.


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

Rules lawyers are more like that guy that will speak up very loudly when you do anything they think is against the rules of the game. It's rather annoying after a while and you really don't get much enjoyment out of a game when someone is digging in the BRB after each and every move or action you take. 

Wanting to play by the rules is good and most try their best to do that but sometimes people play somewhere or learned to play the game with people using houserules and not stating that they are house rules and it makes the person feel cheated if it hinders them in anyway.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

For those of you saying that player 2 has any of the blame for this, what do you do when a player breaks the rules in his favor? I'd call him out and pull out the rules to prove it.

If i'm playing against a squad of vehicles and I immobilize one, it's gonna count as wrecked god damnit!


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Rule lawyers also include guys that think they know all the rules and argue every wording of it too.

@eleven: I understand what you're trying to say, but it really just shouldn't have gotten to that point where you're fighting over little plastic soldiers and quite possibly losing interest in a hobby that you enjoy because of it.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

arumichic said:


> Rule lawyers also include guys that think they know all the rules and argue every wording of it too.
> 
> @eleven: I understand what you're trying to say, but it really just shouldn't have gotten to that point where you're fighting over little plastic soldiers and quite possibly losing interest in a hobby that you enjoy because of it.


I agree, and I never like to start drama while i'm trying to have a good time, but it's entirely possible that this other player 1 fellow is just a bit of a dick, and I can believe it by the description of him.

I was reading about the dunning-kruger effect today. It's when you suck at something so bad that you can't tell the difference between bad and good and it causes you to consequently believe that you are better than you are.

Player 1 in this scenario sounds like a classic case if he's trying to bring up rules all the time but gets it wrong half of those times.


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