# Space Marines have a problem, and it's spelt AV12...



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Okay, for obvious reasons, the ML has become the weapon of choice for SM Tactical squads since the new codex came out. There are variations, I personally prefer a Multi-melta, and some players, such as our very own Someguy, prefer occasional Plasma Cannons for the anti-TEQ fire. However, I think the new IG Codex has put a Mars-forged spanner in the works.

Simply put, the ML has the capacity to deal with nearly everything the SMs face. From the safety of their AV11 bunkers, they can send a S8 rocket into Wave Serpents, Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, Bikes, other AV11 bunkers...or a S4 blast into hordes. All well and good. (For those of you doubting my sense at this stage, given that Wave Serpents also have AV12, read the Energy Field rule.)

Obliterators have been a small issue, but they're one easily solved by other things in the army, sheer weight of fire, or, of course, the ubiquitous MM, once again. MMs cover _most_ of the bases the ML struggles with - specifically, SoulGrinders, Land Raiders, Hive Tyrants, and Oblits. They also have increased effect against other vehicles (except, again, the Wave Serpent!) The only problem with the MM is the comparatively short range. Generally, I contest that this isn't an issue - boards are usually only 4' deep, and you and your opponent usually deploy 12" in...if the opponent, or you, advance at all, you should be in range. If your deployed badly, and facing a block of infantry...well, that's your fault, and you still have two things in your favour:
1) Mobility. You're in a Rhino, so move.
2) Bolters. They can fire out the top hatch too.

This issue become cloudier now however. I've read, and written, a number of IG lists since the new Codex came out. I've been typically vocal about my ideas as to what exactly constitutes a good IG army, although, for those of you who haven't encountered it (how?!?) this is my latest offering, and a good example of what I expect to see finish very highly at the GT - I expect pure AirCav to win.

Statistically, the Chimera and Valkyrie don't pose any additional threat - AV12 still gives a Krak a 50% chance of shaken+. Not huge, but not bad. It still offers the necessary flexibility against Orks etc, and we all know how few points it costs.P) The problem, is that you aren't going to be inside the Rhino very long. You need your first volley to count, because against Alpha Strike lists, it may be your last as well. They have more melta than a Salamander Company, and more mobility than Usain Bolt on coke. For this reason, I bring to your attention, once again, the potential answer to the Guard Dilemma...the one, the only, Lascannon. 

I know, I know, you're thinking this is a 4th Ed hangover. It's really not. I took something of a hiatus from the game when 4th came out - other things in my life were more important at the time (not that I have nothing else in my life...I'm just digging a hole here huh?) and as a result I didn't play it very often (only one tournament, and that was with the current Ork Codex. 2/0/1 if you're interested, losing to BTs - and that was entirely my own fault.)

As a result, I don't get hung up on how awesome Las/Plas squads were. I understand it, but never used them, and would've found it slightly distasteful anyway, since I do like the fluff. I don't get hung up on it. If anything, I'm more hung up on 2nd, simply because I miss the stupidly huge number of weapons. But I digress. Lascannons have better odds against Chimeras and Valks. Equal against Serpents, and eliminate _most_ of the requirement for Melta in the heavy format. They also have a chance against Monoliths...although everyone knows not to shoot them, right?

Okay, there's my thought, now - opinions please!

NOTE - I didn't think this was nearly comprehensive enough to qualify as a Tactica, if you (Mods) disagree, thanks for moving it 

:king:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Lascannons are better then MLs against armoured targets, they also have the range to shame a multimelta at anything greater then 12". I like them, they are a perfectly decent weapon but not something to build an army around.

I do however have a rule- I never, ever, use a multimelta on a marine. Its use lies in its mobility- bikes, speeders, tanks, dreads are all great.. but not infantry. Whenever I write C:SM lists I very rarely use the ML- I give my tacs a role. Either they are going anti-infantry and I give them the HB, they are anti-infantry but covering me against heavy infantry (and give them a plasma cannon) or they are helping out against mech lists... in which case a combat squad with a lascannon is almost an automatic choice.

In summation- ML just doesnt have the firepower to justify not firing bolters at a softer target. Lascannons deal some serious pain to most things and is makes the sacrifice of the rest of the squads firing doing feck all worth taking.


ASIDE- yes, I also think air cav is going to be nasty. Vendettas especially could well be just about one of the nastiest things out there (especially if they are scouts... dunno, not an IG player). A highly mobile vehicle with more firepower then a LR for about half the cost is nasty... it will suffer from being fragile though, easy to see almost anywhere on the board and only AV12 means everything will be pounding it. Worse still is that if it want to fire all weapons it can only move 6", not nearly enough to go over terrain- either it spends time going round or it risks getting immobalised (can see that happenning a lot).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm not too keen on the Heavy Bolter, unless you've got a bucket of squads around them. With the blast template, you can hit more enemies, albeit wounding harder and allowing some hordes their armour saves.

However, it's also completely useless against armour, and marines just don't have the ability to spend their points on specialisation, unless they have the mobility and redeployment to make up for it- i.e Bikers, in which case the Multi Melta comes into its own with effective 24" range.

Vendetta's can't scout. Thank god.

Still, I hopefully pack enough melta weapons, and the mobility to blow enough out of the sky.

Problem is if someone runs a pair of them and intermingles the squads - giving at least one unit an obscured roll.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

So, Vaz, you think your meltas will still be enough?


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Valks are worse than scouts, they outflank, and with TKE's list, they will be coming in very quickly, and very hard. The MRP valks will move 12" and fire it's ML + pods at your troops, while the vendetta's will move 6" onto the board, then shoot in the side/rear of your furthestmost tanks. Meanwhile, they'll all be dropping off their meltagun veterans who will pick off your heavy infantry and close lieing tanks.
At the same time you will have a rush of chimera's driving up to you to make your life a living hell. some of those also filled with veterans.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> So, Vaz, you think your meltas will still be enough?


Nur Ur. bababababa limit


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

:blush: well, I _am_ 15 kinds of awesome...

Seriously, yep, and the list can replace some Vets with Stormtroopers, who Deep Strike, on a 2+, with BS4 Melta fun, re-rolling scatter. They're the new anti-Mech - move over Dark Eldar!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

OK, but some of the new guard units work against them- if I know Im fighting a mobile guard army with outflanking nasties and all those +1/-1 to reserve roll people then I know that reserving my army is a nice plan- By the time my army makes it onto the field all the IG counter units will have had to come on already- any of my stuff that does make it on turn 2 should be able to get hidden behind whatever terrain there is
- also since I love my ven dread and Im guessing that the guard players will normally want first turn I'm guessing that I'll get to go second anyway.

Most outflanking or DS'ing troops rely on there being something around for them to hit first.. if they are the first struck then they arent often standing to return the favour.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

For exactly that reason, AirCav chooses to go second. Every time.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

but having your battle plan hinge on the dice roll at the very begging is not very wise.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Perhaps when a certain AirCav tactica appears it'll be clearer...either way, MLs aren't as effective against Chimeras - do you agree that it's time to rehabilitate the Lascannon?


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

i don't know, theres a player at our GW and he uses a drop pod list where every squad has a melta gun, along with rapid fire bolter shots its quite hard to dodge first turn


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## Mabrothrax (May 19, 2009)

Looking at the above posts I would guess those who make use of mobile meltas will continue to do so without taking to much flak from the surge of guard lists.

Those that tend to rely on missile launchers will be best served returning to the mighty lascannon. The question is, once the guard fever reduces (and perhaps Dark Eldar fever approaches?) will the lascannon return to its uncommonly used satus?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It's possible, but I think the Alpha Strike build will persist, in some form. It's too deadly to be ignored entirely - like Nob Bikes. If people still think they can play NidZilla at Tournaments and expect to win, then there'll definitely be AirCav too.


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## Mabrothrax (May 19, 2009)

Agreed.

Thinking about it I reckon a lascannon resurgence will be little more than a knee-jerk reaction. My money is on the continued (and indeed increased) use of melta heavy lists.

The one exception maybe with Space Wolf Long Fangs, multiple fire-splitting lascannons in a signle heavy slot? Sounds like a plan.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Against guard I tend to roll with a 10 man dev squad. Combat squad them up with 2 LC's in one, and 2 ML's in another. They are popping at least 2 vehicles a turn, and have only died once in the last 10-12 games. Give them a 3 up cover save in your deployment and watch the pain as all their precious vehicles get ripped apart. Granted the squad is ungodly expensive, It is only 80 more points than my standard tac squads, but can easily pop 2 tanks a turn, and one of my LC's is shooting at BS 5.

I also find Scouts with Telion and a ML to be quite fun. In this campaign I am in, I had the initiative stolen from me and my small 5 man dev squad got wiped out after his entire army shot at them. The only AT I had left was my ML scouts, and Telion each turn grabbing that ML and popping a tank, one after another. They destroyed 2 LR Demolisher's and a basilisk, and lost 3 scouts the entire game. In short, with 2 dreads, a dev squad, some snipers with a ML, and a sprinkling of Combi Meltas for sgt's, I don't fear tanks all that much.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Long fangs are good with a mix of weapons. 2ML 2LC is my fav build... but they still suck. They just cannot take any fire- an outflanking valk with guardsmen could kill enough to LF to make a puppy cringe.


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## Devinstater (Dec 9, 2008)

I've been taking las cannons in my tac squads. Usually enough mobile melta elsewhere. Even if you only use it turn 1 to pop transports and AV 12, its better at making sure that shot counts.


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## TheBog (Apr 27, 2009)

Uh.. Vendettas CAN scout... and they CAN outflank.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm not sure I fully understand how air cav works. My understanding is that it goes something like this:

The marines are inside their rhinos. They shoot their missile launchers at the valks, and maybe achieve something. Alternatively, maybe the IG go first and deep strike out of their valks, and hilarity ensues.

Anyway eventually some vets will show up in the marines' lines. They melt the rhinos, and have a decent chance of killing some.

The marines get out of their broken rhinos and look at the IG vets. It's now their turn.

Now to be honest, I'm sure it's a little bit more complicated than that. The vets will probably gang up on the marines so that one unit blows up the rhino and a second hits the guys who come out, and there will be tanks and stuff shooting as well. No way are they going to kill the whole army in a turn though.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but I don't fear the valk army very much. What if the marines go first and the valks have to go against rhinos with smoke coming out of them, and after having seen some of their own vehicles fall over. Drop pods might be popping up in their deployment zone, scouts getting out of storms and doing naughty things with power fists (which I expect to see a lot of when the new model arrives) and so on.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

I don't think marines will have as hard a time against air cav as some armies. I see the main use as being to strike a quarter/half of your opponents army on a weak flank and destroy it utterly leaving the rest of the opposing force outside of rapid fire/assault range and having LOS blocked by vehicle wrecks (to the infantry anyway, nothing is gonna block LOS to a Valk).


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Vaz said:


> Vendetta's can't scout. Thank god.


yeah they can


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I have been having some pleasant success with a predator with two Las cannons and auot cannon with a combat squad sitting on an objective with a las cannon. Averagely it means I get two strenght nine hits on something a turn, but the dice seem to have other ideas recently. The other tactical squad does have a Multi melta but the guy generally uses it as a big club. I prefer it ovewr the ML purely because of the AP1 and thet the suqad is normally in the enemies face.


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## VictorLazarus (Mar 5, 2009)

I use a Land raider when playing space marines and I've never had it popped - even against tau (lucky me) worst I've had done to it was a weapon destroyed and immobalised by a Ork nob with power claw.

With marines and guard I always like to take lascannons case I come up against something with AV14 (DA don't need to worry about that sort of thing) and missile launchers to act as anti troop or trucks / light vehicles.

I haven't been doing amazingly well with guard lately as I use a tank based army and can really hammer down on a mass of infantry but can't (for anything) get my target on small or single units. (constant missing lol) (plus termies kill me)

I see marines as a very powerful and reliable team and I've won most games with them.

MVL.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I think we will see a resurgence of the lascannon on marine lists and a converse reduction of lascannons in guard lists
with all these new toys we are going to see a lot more of these melta heavy deepstrike/infiltrate lists
but it doesnt make up for the fact that each guard warrior is 

However if I was a marine I wouldnt be too scared 
in general you will out last them the fact is they will kill a few of you and receive about 10 botler shots to the face in return 
in the end they will suffer more through lower armour saves
My advice to marines is too take a devastator squad with 4 lascannons and a predator
stick it their and say ok then boys u want to take out my tactical squads or the squad that is going to shred ur artillery
in the end i think they will take out the predator or the devestators
rhino rush with a land raider full of assault twin lightening claw terminators and happily watch those pesky guard die from 20 rapid fire bolters and general combat prowess

But im actually a static tau player
so i am very scared
as the fact that they cant pop my hammerheads has been the deciding factor in guard battles
i still lost but that was due to bad tactics and i lost 2 units to deep strike mishaps 
but the hammerheads saved me
so now that the guard have a very very strong anti tank unit 
i am scared and with the manticore and the basilisk i have a feeling that i may well be suffering from a severe case of deadus against guard in the near future


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