# New SM codex and what are you BA going to do about it?



## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

Okay, so in the new SM codex there are a couple of fundemental changes that don't really sit right with me to not see them in the BA ( or space wolves for that matter) codex.

I'm not talking about:
New SM apothecary because BA sanguinary priests are equipped differently.
Vanguard vets 'cause we have vet assault squads.
Sternguard vets 'cause they're to much a shooty unit.
New scout bikers 'cause we didn't have them in the first place.
The techmarines and the thunderfire cannon: it's too much of a difference with the old techmarines.

I am talking about:
The Land Raider redeemer: Could it be more BA?
The Signum the new SM devastator squad sarge carries.
The extra weaponskill the smurf captains got: We're supposed to be the close combat chapter!
The orbital bombardement the chapter master got: Dante doesn't have strike cruiser or what?
The Land Speeder Storm: I know our scouts are elite but does that mean they shouldn't get a transport?
The new scout stats.
The new dreadnought configurations and costs. Our Venerable dread's are just senile idiots that haven't learnt to shoot straight?
The new cyclone missile launchers and Typhoon launchers: What? Our missile launchers are just slower then yours? We've got lazy missiles or an ammo problem? Same goes for Bolter ammo; only pure codex chapters who have been good get those?

Now I ask you BA and Space Wolf players, what are you going to do?
They launch these incredibly cool new models and give new rules to units we too have (identical) but we can't use them?
That just seems wrong.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Because BA aren't a load of robbing blue b****es that's why. Look at the redeemer. Twin linked assault cannon and sponson Flamers. That's a baal land raider In all honesty.

I like our scouts, They'd wipe the floor of the Smurfy Scouts bar maybe the sergeant. The Storm would be nice as it would give the scouts a more Elite feel though....

What extra weapon skill?? Last time I checked they had 5 same as us.... Orbital bombardment was Given instead of Rites of battle and honestly I prefer rights of battle....

Sternguard and vanguard are just cocks. They take the best things from other chapters, even chaos legions, and pile them into one. 

Overall Because of my complete dislike of the new codex I'm glad I'm not getting any of that.... Oh and Can their devastator pick seperate models instead of 5?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

That doesn't sound awfully fair.
This might be something totally different, but now I can only take 3 squads of LotD Marines! Ok a 3+ Inv save may be Gorgeous, but at the loss of terminators and Dread's? Old rules for me thanks.
Pardon the irrelavance, I just wanted to whinge as well 
What are you going to do Camaris?


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

Well as a space wolf player all im going to do is put my army on hold while i await the next space wolf dex. Not much of an answer but the alternative is to use the SM codex which isn't too hard, just means you do away with some of the nice and fluffy things and some of the unique troop types.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

I think that you should only play blood angels if you want to do something they can that Space Marines can't.

It's not the main space marine book, it's not going to have as many people use it.

I would love to see a faq to update BA cyclone missile launchers, but that's about it.


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

> Look at the redeemer. Twin linked assault cannon and sponson Flamers. That's a baal land raider In all honesty.
> I like our scouts, They'd wipe the floor of the Smurfy Scouts bar maybe the sergeant. The Storm would be nice as it would give the scouts a more Elite feel though....
> What extra weapon skill?? Last time I checked they had 5 same as us.... Orbital bombardment was Given instead of Rites of battle and honestly I prefer rights of battle....
> Sternguard and vanguard are just cocks. They take the best things from other chapters, even chaos legions, and pile them into one.
> Overall Because of my complete dislike of the new codex I'm glad I'm not getting any of that.... Oh and Can their devastator pick seperate models instead of 5?


Which is exactly why BA should have the Redeemer! That and because the model is frickin' awesome. Oh, did I mention the upgraded Machine spirit yet? What? Our pc's are just dumber?
New SM captains and chapter masters have a weapon skill of 6. We've got 5.
I ain't complaining about missing vanguard or sternguard. Although the new storm shileds would be logical except if BA and SW have sucky stormshields...
Why would you want to add models to a devastator squad? And the 'letting one model in the squad fire with BS 5' ability that the signum gives the sarge is wicked.


> What are you going to do Camaris?


Dunno.
I probably will just steal the Redeemer and the Land Speeder Storm as 0-1 choices and use the devastators and scouts as described in the SM codex. Add a weapon skill to our captains and of course use the new versions of the Typhoon and Cyclone missile launchers and Storm shields.


> I would love to see a faq to update BA cyclone missile launchers, but that's about it.


So no super Storm shields for you? BA just use sub-standard equipment is that it? No Baal Predator? No Venerable dreads that have learnt to shoot?
I play BA because I like BA. No because I want stuff from other codexes to. I'm not envious.
I'm just saying that if identical units in the SM codex get upgraded, downgraded or supersized then ours should too.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Your question works both ways. Why cant normal marines have a Baal predator? Surly some Marine commander must of seen this and thought 'there's a good idea'.

BA and SW will both get a new dex in time, and Im sure it will include the new Raider and other goodies. Remember when the Crusader came out, it was a BT choice only for quite some time. As for a FAQ for the old codexies, the only one I can could possible see this happening for is the BA as this was a WD list, but SW, DA and BT wont be getting one for the new SM codex.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

humakt said:


> Remember when the Crusader came out, it was a BT choice only for quite some time.


This.

PS. Yes, please add in I would like storm shield updated as well. But, _that_, is about it.

Until the new codex in I guess a couple of years.


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

@ Humakt: Very good point.
But totally beside the OP.
I asked:


> Now I ask you BA and Space Wolf players, what are you going to do?
> They launch these incredibly cool new models and give new rules to units we too have (identical) but we can't use them?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

*IF* I played blood angels, I'd personally just use the marine codex, there nothing left in the BA one to make it worth using anymore

if I did wolves....I probably still would use the marine codex, its easy enough
relic blades as frost blades
tactical squads as grey hunters
assault squads as blood claws etc etc


in fact I am gonna do wolves instead of ultramarines using the new codex, I've decided


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The redeemer I agree BA should have. WS 6 is a joke though. It makes Chaos commanders less special and makes special characters Like dante and mephiston seem kinda over priced then.... The thing with the devastators is that we can only have 5 or 10, as the codex astartes states. I've heard that the new codex doesn't do that for them....

And assault squads as troops, baal predators, Dante mephiston, Death company, cheaper multi melta attack bikes and I know Camaris doesn't like him(he is a shit looking model though) Lemartes. They're decent reason enough.


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

I agree that WS 6 is a joke. But they have it so there's no changin' that.
Well then , maybe we could even Dante's cost back out by also giving him the Orbital Bombardment special rule? :grin:
The devastators... If in one codex you have to take 5 or 10 and in another you can take 5-10 then this is something they should rectify although I don't think it a big problem. But it does make a point that they should rework codexes so that they all use the same format.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The new codex just looks like it wasn't put together well at all.... It's kind of depressing.... First the chaos codex which is as bland as steamed farts now this.... I'm not sure they're even trying anymore.....


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

So basically, you're just going to create a frankanstein mis-mash of codexs?


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

No.
I'm going to update models and units that are in MY codex AND the SM codex and use the newer version there-of.
Like the Cyclone Missile launchers or the storm shields and the WS 6 captains and the WS and BS 3 scouts, even though mine are elites and the new Devastator sarge ability.
I PROBABLY won't use the Redeemer (yet) or the Land Speeder Storm.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay the same amount of points for something that performs worse that the same unit in the new SM codex.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Fair enough.
I wouldn't blame you... How long is it going to be for the next BA codex...?









Years


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

They realized that people who play Blood Angels play them to bring the Death Company, and in 2000 points, you can drum up as many Death Company Marines as the entire CHAPTER is likely to have in a given campaign. A more standard Blood Angels army probably is better represented by the Space Marine Codex, in the end-- the Baal Predator is really the only thing that's missing now, and there's at least still Apocalypse for that... Furiosos can "count as" Ironclads, after all.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Maybe if they only saw very competitive people use them. I started BA because I loved the fluff and have made the fluff lists into a competitive, but not overly so, lists.

I will continue to use only my codex and no mash ups of several codices. I can make a very balanced BA list So I don't really see where you're coming from SoH.....

Still I'll get the new things for apocalypse anyway.....


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## The_Inquisitor (Jul 19, 2008)

Camaris said:


> But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay the same amount of points for something that performs worse that the same unit in the new SM codex.


If you want to play as BA, play with THEIR rules. If you want the newer upgrades, which in the new marine codex are meant to represent every codex chapter in action (not just ultramarines), then play as one of these chapters. Just get over it. BA and codex marines are two different armies. Thats why they have a seperate codex. Thats like saying "why dont chaos marines get the new redeemer?" Because their different armies. I see where you're coming from fluff wise but just be happy that you have things such as the death company which others can't have.


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

Death Company? what Death Compan,y 5th edition took that away from us too. Now we have a Baal Predator.....which is about it..... Oh! and a few point sink HQ's that don't do much of squat, what's the point of having mephiston kill 5 out of 10 orks, then have a power klaw insta-gib him? 

I'm not whining, these are just reasons I'm going to use the new SM dex  bet that


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> Maybe if they only saw very competitive people use them. I started BA because I loved the fluff and have made the fluff lists into a competitive, but not overly so, lists.


if your main reason for using Blood Angels is the fluff, then why not use the normal codex?, your fluff will still be the same no matter what, and everything can be made into something else from the codex, and you get a few more options, and the only thing you lose is a ball predator (which isn't much of a loss thats for sure)


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

I don't mind different units doing different things, but why is my Storm Shield so weenie compared to a blue one? 

Why does the IX Legion not have Relic weapons when the 642nd spinoff chapter of the 73rd founding can have dozens?

Why do my Land Raiders & Drop Pods carry fewer Marines than the blue ones?

Did my Techmarines take the correspondence course in the back of a comic book and not get to Mars? Is that why I have to start the turn next to the unit I'm repairing and can only make that repair on a 6?

Ultramarine veterans can assault after deep striking with jump packs but Blood Angels just stand around looking confused?

Don't even get me started on the Librarian's powers. Lord of Death? More like Lord of Mild Discomfort. uke:

I understand that they are different armies and should have different units. But an apple is an apple. Not that I'm going to stop playing BA, and GW already has my money for most of the new toys, but I'd really like a little consistency. And access/fire points for my :fuck:ing Rhinos.

Ahhhh. I feel much better.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Sanguinary Dan said:


> I don't mind different units doing different things, but why is my Storm Shield so weenie compared to a blue one?
> 
> Why does the IX Legion not have Relic weapons when the 642nd spinoff chapter of the 73rd founding can have dozens?
> 
> ...


As a Chaos player, I have similar questions like where'd my Plasma Cannons go, and how come my dreadnoughts get cranky and yours don't?

Appearantly that between chapter divergence reaches further than differences in the gene seed and has gotten into your training programs and manufacturing systems.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

hopefully GW will move their asses and release update FAQs for both BA and DA, because we both got royally fucked over compared to the new SM codex.

Assuming they don't let us have some of these goodies then I might just play my blood angels as codex marines. Take Shrike and some ridiculously cheap assault squads, maybe some vanguard in a pod or a land raider (they're too bloody expensive with the JPs) painted black, take some scoouts for troops (Scouts, Infiltrate, AND fleet (thanks to shrike) with a PF sarge...yeah, I'll take that), maybe a couple tacticals, or take sternguard instead...and the Furioso becomes an Ironclad.

My baals are out, but predators got kinda fucked by the new rules anyhow. Maybe grab a couple of those new twin assault cannon razorbacks instead., yank the sponsons off my baals and use them that way (I;d probably do that even if I played them as predators since they fucked over the heavy bolters)

I'll figure it out


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

solkan said:


> As a Chaos player, I have similar questions like where'd my Plasma Cannons go, and how come my dreadnoughts get cranky and yours don't?


the dreadnought one is explained though, so there is no point complaining about it, the use pre-heresy dreadnoughts, its well known for the occupants to go crazy and kill any and everything in sight


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

> Death Company? what Death Compan,y 5th edition took that away from us too.


When and how the fuck did that happen?


> I don't mind different units doing different things, but why is my Storm Shield so weenie compared to a blue one?
> Why does the IX Legion not have Relic weapons when the 642nd spinoff chapter of the 73rd founding can have dozens?
> Why do my Land Raiders & Drop Pods carry fewer Marines than the blue ones?
> Did my Techmarines take the correspondence course in the back of a comic book and not get to Mars? Is that why I have to start the turn next to the unit I'm repairing and can only make that repair on a 6?
> ...


:biggrin::laugh::laugh::good: You made my day!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Camaris said:


> When and how the fuck did that happen?


I think he means that the changes to Rending in 5th made them far less effective than before, or that he doesn't like the way that Death Company are generated (for want of a better term) in the new Codex compared to the old 3rd edition one.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Galahad said:


> hopefully GW will move their asses and release update FAQs for both BA and DA, because we both got royally fucked over compared to the new SM codex.


Games Workshop stated in the latest White Dwarf that there won't be any FAQs for Blood Angels and Dark Angels to use the new stuff (including different weapons profiles, character profiles, etc.) because they "wanted to give something to players who chose to stick to the Codex instead of taking traits/rules for a specific chapter and considering them a "free" bonus to rules that were considered "core" but were meant to be seperate and stand-alone." Quite frankly, I find that bullshit-- if a Space Marine Captain is WS6, then a Blood Angels Captain probably ought to be WS7... and certainly both Blood Angels and Dark Angels should have access to the assorted new toys available to the Codex Chapters. Perhaps in the case of the Blood Angels, not the thunderfire cannon, because I think Sanguinius might cry if he saw his sons sitting around fiddling with an artillery piece... but yeah... 


On an unrelated note...

Honestly, if they made Death Company a truly optional choice, with the same sort of stigma attached to special characters, then the Codex would be fine. Don't bury their points into other units and try to pass it off as an option, because they're still not-- you've bought them, so if you don't bring them, you might as well play a Codex army. Let's bring the points back in line with the Codex Space Marines for regular squads, and make Death Company an honor guard kind of attachment/retinue unit for a single Chaplain in the army. Or, more specifically, Lemartes, since that's what he spends his time doing. 

I started 40k with Blood Angels, and I've always had a serious beef with how the Death Company work in terms of the army list. During the Third War for Armageddon, when the entire Chapter was present, guess how many Death Company there were? Including Brother-Captain Tycho, there were around fifteen or twenty. In 2000 points, you can easily bring ten. The point here is that if the Chapter had ten brethren succumbing to the Angel's Pain every time they fought, then there wouldn't be a Chapter to have brethren succumbing from-- they'd cease to be functional because those aren't sustainable numbers. Twenty out of a thousand, though? That's still not good-- each Space Marine is valuable, and grouping them into a suicide squad and letting them loose until they get themselves killed still costs the Chapter twenty Space Marines in that scenario... but it's a sustainable loss. Codex: Space Wolves had the right idea with Wolf Guard and the Mark of the Wulfen, really... something similar probably should've been done with the Death Company, but oh well.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Galahad said:


> hopefully GW will move their asses and release update FAQs for both BA and DA, because we both got royally fucked over compared to the new SM codex.


why should they?, you don't need the DA or BA codex anymore, everything you can do you can do with the basic codex.

heck at least the BA codex was free, I'm only pissed at the fact I had to pay for mine, only for it to be useless not much later, but oh well, I'll just post it back to JJ after its been through a shredder


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

The Son of Horus said:


> Games Workshop stated in the latest White Dwarf that there won't be any FAQs for Blood Angels and Dark Angels to use the new stuff (including different weapons profiles, character profiles, etc.) because they "wanted to give something to players who chose to stick to the Codex instead of taking traits/rules for a specific chapter and considering them a "free" bonus to rules that were considered "core" but were meant to be seperate and stand-alone." Quite frankly, I find that bullshit-- if a Space Marine Captain is WS6, then a Blood Angels Captain probably ought to be WS7... and certainly both Blood Angels and Dark Angels should have access to the assorted new toys available to the Codex Chapters. Perhaps in the case of the Blood Angels, not the thunderfire cannon, because I think Sanguinius might cry if he saw his sons sitting around fiddling with an artillery piece... but yeah...
> 
> 
> On an unrelated note...
> ...


*all the more reason to use the new marine codex and declare "counts as" for the units you pick in order to make what you consider a fluffy Blood Angels codex army*

I don't know if its a lack of imagination, or classic resistance to change that has some peoples undies up in a bunch....

I have used the old marine codex, the BA codex and the DA codex in the last 9 months. All for the same basic yellow painted marine army...


Try to seperate your fluff from your rules for a moment. 

*Imagine the fluffy army as you see it playing; what kind of style does it have? 

What is unique about its warfighting that you wish to highlight using rules and gaming mechanics?*

Once you know what you wish to do, you can pick pretty much ANY codex to use as long as you are careful to note it before-hand to opponents and on the army list.


I used BA rules to represent Heresy Era Imperial Fists going slightly nutty after the Iron Cage...

I've used to DA list to represent a Imperial Fist 1st Company Alpha Strike...

Heck, I used CHRISTOPHER WALKEN as a stand-in for Mephiston...
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6112

Heck you could field an ALL Legion of the Damned list just by using the Necron Codex.

Think about how the game mechanics of a troop heavy necron army work for Legion of the Damned...

Hellfire Bolter= Gauss Weapons [check]
Ability to soak up damage= WBB [check]
Marine Phantasms=able to be teleported around by their giant, ghostly Drop Pod or by their Damned-Captain's "Scepter of the Empyrean"

I took me all of a minute to think that up. I'm sure you could do far better with your own army that you care about.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> if your main reason for using Blood Angels is the fluff, then why not use the normal codex?, your fluff will still be the same no matter what, and everything can be made into something else from the codex, and you get a few more options, and the only thing you lose is a ball predator (which isn't much of a loss thats for sure)


It was one of the reasons, not the only reason. And after making my own BA successor chapter only the BA codex will work fluff wise( a full assault company being a battle company etc.) 

Plus I'm stubborn as hell. I said I won't use this codex so I'm not. Might not be as powerful, might be less competitive But it's my Way of doing things and for a hobby, that's all that matters.

I'd much prefer to have an army I'm happy to play with and is less competitive(maybe, I say bring them on) than play with something I dislike


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> It was one of the reasons, not the only reason. And after making my own BA successor chapter only the BA codex will work fluff wise( a full assault company being a battle company etc.)
> 
> Plus I'm stubborn as hell. I said I won't use this codex so I'm not. Might not be as powerful, might be less competitive But it's my Way of doing things and for a hobby, that's all that matters.
> 
> I'd much prefer to have an army I'm happy to play with and is less competitive(maybe, I say bring them on) than play with something I dislike


and that concludes the topic, the BA players have spoken out that they will pretty much do nothing.....although I'm sure they will continue to complain


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm not one to complain.
I'll steal whatever I like from the new codex and ok it with my gaming buddies.
GW isn't going to screw over my fluffy army just so I can lose to some dickhead 623rd SM chapter of the 88th founding.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Camaris said:


> I'm not one to complain.
> I'll steal whatever I like from the new codex and ok it with my gaming buddies.
> GW isn't going to screw over my fluffy army just so I can lose to some dickhead 623rd SM chapter of the 88th founding.


yes we heard that the tenth time to


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

Right back at you with the "use the new basic codex" comment.
:fuck:

This topic isn't for you to close.
If it bores you then stop reading it.
Besides the question of the OP isn't pointed at you ultrasmurf.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> and that concludes the topic, the BA players have spoken out that they will pretty much do nothing.....although I'm sure they will continue to complain


I'm one BA player so that deosn't really conclude the topic. Plus I'm notdoing anything about and complaining still. I will stick with my codex on principle. I won't use the new codex To represent BA but that doesn't mean I won't use it at all.... Sorry if I was a little vague before


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Camaris said:


> Right back at you with the "use the new basic codex" comment.
> :fuck:


yes because you actually can very easily, but just refuse to even give the idea any thought

and anyone who says "it would wreck my FLUFFY army" is lying, they just like assault marines being troops



Camaris said:


> Besides the question of the OP isn't pointed at you ultrasmurf.


I play space wolves


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

Of course I refuse to give it any thought.
I've had a codex for the Blood Angels since the 2end edition and now all of a sudden I'm supposed to just start playing vanilla Marines?
Of course we like assault marines that are troops.
Thats why we play Blood Angels stupid! We want a close combat sm army.
And the Death company is so cool in fluff and in stats. As is the Furioso dread. But of course the smurfs had to steal that idea from us too and even make it better. Same goes for the Baal predator (which rocks!).

And if you play sw then you might want to a) mention that in your profile under 'main army' b) not use an ultrasmurf as avatar c) quit whining because the sw codex is even more screwed over then even BA are.
But wait, let me guess... You use the vanilla codex for your sw? Right?
Then I got news for you, THEY'RE NOT SPACE WOLVES. Just grey smurfs.

I wanna play BA. Not red smurfs.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Not one to complain??? *Laughs out loud to self*

Camaris why are you complaining about Stella Cadente's picture and main army? 

You don't even play Blood Angels!!!

You play a succesor chapter. Whilst I'm not adverse to succesors using their origional Legion's codex. MISHMASHING CODICIES ISN'T COOL!
So regardless of what you say, you ARE just playing as red smurfs.

So you just want to take everything good and have nothing to balance it out?

If you want the BA Codex why don't you get hold of the two WDs with the codex in?
Did you even consider that? No! But that's why there won't be a new BA codex for a long time, It was released months before 5th!

LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Camaris said:


> And if you play sw then you might want to a) mention that in your profile under 'main army'


why should I?


Camaris said:


> b) not use an ultrasmurf as avatar


why not?


Camaris said:


> c) quit whining because the sw codex is even more screwed over then even BA are.


well its not really


Camaris said:


> But wait, let me guess... You use the vanilla codex for your sw? Right?


yes, because I'm not close minded enough to not even consider a viable alternative


Camaris said:


> Then I got news for you, THEY'RE NOT SPACE WOLVES. Just grey smurfs.


nope there space wolves, fluff and background make an army, NOT the codex, me using the Marine codex does not in any way change the FACT that they are still 100% pure space wolves, because the background says so


Camaris said:


> I wanna play BA. Not red smurfs.


you still would be playing Blood Angels, there background does not change, if anything the actual BA codex goes against the background, nowhere have I ever read that Blood angels have more assault marines, as far as I know there still quite adherent to the codex.

of course this is going by PROPER fluff and background, in codex's written by people with actual talent


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> why should I?
> 
> why not?
> 
> ...


You're a legend


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

Ah well.
Let me just say: :fuck:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Camaris said:


> Ah well.
> Let me just say: :fuck:


hmm
.......


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> you still would be playing Blood Angels, there background does not change, if anything the actual BA codex goes against the background, nowhere have I ever read that Blood angels have more assault marines, as far as I know there still quite adherent to the codex.
> 
> of course this is going by PROPER fluff and background, in codex's written by people with actual talent


Am Actually it does say it. 
Old codex under why collect a blood angels army "Blood angels in Particualr excel at close quarter fighting and hand to hand combat. With specialised assault troops like veteran assault squads" and in the new codex, downloadable too, not just through white dwarf says under the terminator entry " when not equipped as terminators, blood angel veterans fight as assault squads, rather than tactical squads as is the case in other chapters."

Also under the bike entry"The might if the blood angels assasult squads is unquestionable" Plus they were the first codex to have the option of veteran assault squads and assault squad retinues. If they don't count as Being fluffy towards Having lots of assault units I don't know what is.
Sure it says that they roughly stick to the codex but it also says that they field a lot of assault units as the 8th company is deployed with other campaigns too....
I don't care much for the New things though. If I don't get them fine If I do so what really? I like the unique things Blood angels get, The captain and van/sternguard (the jump pack one) are seeming to be more BA like though but we can have a full assault squad army. Who else can? DA get to have an entire terminator army and they have one of the best bike units in the game SO they don't really need any new shit either. wolves You miss out a lot I think. Blood claws, Venerable dread with WS and BS5, Those scouts, 13th company, all that wargear like wolf tooth necklaces and frost blades.

I'm interested on how You use the new codex for wolves though. Which units count as which??


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> I'm interested on how You use the new codex for wolves though. Which units count as which??


relic blades = Frost blades
Chapter masters = Wolf lords
Captains = wolf guard battle leaders
Chaplain = wolf priest
Librarian = rune priest
Master of the forge = venerable techpriest
Tactical squad = grey hunters
scouts = wolf scouts
Terminators = wolf guard terminators
Sternguard = wolf guard
Venerable dreadnought (with the extra BS and WS) = Venerable dreadnought
Dreadnought = dreadnought
Ironclad = Ironclad
Techmarine = techpriest
Legion of the damned = legion of the damned
Assault squads = Blood claws
Vanguard = Wolf guard
Land speeder = Blood claw land speeder
Bikes = Blood claw bikers
Scout bikers = scout bikers
Attack bikes = either Blood Claw or Grey Hunter bikers, maybe even long fang bikers
Devastators = Long fangs
and its obvious what the other vehicles =


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Does the new venerable rule give extra BS and WS?? cool. The only things I don't like in it are The scouts are crap compared to SW scouts, they hate jump packs and I thikn landspeeders, they don't use attackbikes, the longfangs have fire control, they don't and you don't have a russ in the list.... I personally dislike it and woudl prefer the Original codex but if you can live with it then respect....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> The only things I don't like in it are The scouts are crap compared to SW scouts,


Meh, not much of a loss


Lord Reevan said:


> they hate jump packs and I thikn landspeeders,


Jump Packs can be removed and the squad put in a Rhino, so thats solved, and since I would only use 1 squad at most with Jump packs, and only 1 at most of speeders, again solved


Lord Reevan said:


> they don't use attackbikes,


they do now, no reason why they couldn't before really


Lord Reevan said:


> the longfangs have fire control, they don't


we have combat squads and 10 men, same thing more bodies


Lord Reevan said:


> and you don't have a russ in the list....


Considering how 5th has screwed the Exterminator, thats not a bad thing


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

hehehe very true..... I still think of them through 4th... I haven't played them in 5th.... Are you using the new characters for wolves characters??


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> hehehe very true..... I still think of them through 4th... I haven't played them in 5th.... Are you using the new characters for wolves characters??


Not in my list so far, but if I was to Tigurius would make a nice Njal Stormcaller, Sicarius could make an interesting Ragnar Blackmane, but with slightly differing equipment, but most I would probably use the Chapter master to make


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Sounds good..... If I'm doing one of my tactical Heavy army lists I might use the new one... Just to check it out..... Still I'm happy with my current codex....

I'd like to see what they do with The new space wolves codex though..... IF they get the stuff from the new Codex it'd be weird.....


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> ... fluff and background make an army, NOT the codex...


This is a really good point. I'm always looking at different ways to use a codex, so I'm not sure even whether I'm a "BA player" here... I guess under Camaris's definition I am, as I use the BA dex... under Stella's definition I'm not, because I use a Chaos army...

i _think_ of it as a Chaos army because it's got spikes and big hats. But I'm well aware that I'm using BA rules. It doesn't quite play like a standard BA army - I don't have fleets of raptors and haven't converted any attack bikes - it plays a bit like an old Rhino Rush marine army, with a nasty cc-unit of black-painted Berzerkers (a bit less nasty thanks to 5th changes to "Rending").

But I'm thinking of chaging my "up-till-now-represented-by-BA" force to a "represented-by-Chaos" force, it would be easier... of course this is what Galahad did a year ago - here and here, only his Chaos were actually BAs... confused? You will be...

:chaotically sanguine cyclops:


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> relic blades = Frost blades
> Chapter masters = Wolf lords
> Captains = wolf guard battle leaders
> Chaplain = wolf priest
> ...



_*

Heresy!

Blasphemy!

A sublime combination of Blas-pherecy!

How dare you use your imagination to soil the deadly serious art of pushing overpriced miniatures across a table!!!*_

You sir, should be ashamed....










+1 rep for taking the high road


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Sons of Russ said:


> _*
> Heresy!
> 
> Blasphemy!
> ...


I shall punish myself later for such heresy by forcing myself to be attacked by seven Japanese schoolgirls in nothing but Bikinis


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## zrolimit (Sep 23, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I shall punish myself later for such heresy by forcing myself to be attacked by seven Japanese schoolgirls in nothing but Bikinis



i can see your suffering will be great for your blasphemy  i do hope you survive to come up with more ingenius ways in adapting the new 5th edition Space Marine codex.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I see your point Camaris. It seems terribly unfair that almost every chapter has these cool new units and abilities yet somehow the SW and BA players get left in the dark. Personally, I chalk it up to the fact that GW seems to be making decisions with their pocket book instead of their head. Why take care of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves with the new SM codex when they can write up two entirely seperate books and charge people another $25 a piece?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I love it how everyone starts commenting after the tongue lashing


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## Tom_Peanut (Apr 15, 2008)

I play a Deathwing army and while I agree that DA, BA and SW shouldnt get the new units as such because of their organisation differing to that of the codex chapters one thing I do think is that equipment in the codex`s should be standardised so SW, BA and DA storm shields give a 3+ invun all the time because after all its the same thing and unless there is fluff somewhere that says these 3 chapters storm shields are worse then to me it makes sence other examples combat shields cyclone missile launchers, the landspeeders missiles ect,ect. So I do not want the new units for my DA just changes to existing equipment to make it the same as the new Marine codex ones as afterall it is the same equipment.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Tom_Peanut said:


> I play a Deathwing army and while I agree that DA, BA and SW shouldnt get the new units as such because of their organisation differing to that of the codex chapters one thing I do think is that equipment in the codex`s should be standardised so SW, BA and DA storm shields give a 3+ invun all the time because after all its the same thing and unless there is fluff somewhere that says these 3 chapters storm shields are worse then to me it makes sence other examples combat shields cyclone missile launchers, the landspeeders missiles ect,ect. So I do not want the new units for my DA just changes to existing equipment to make it the same as the new Marine codex ones as afterall it is the same equipment.


I agree completely


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## Bounty Hunter 999 (Sep 24, 2008)

space wolves are probably going to get a new codex soon because they were as old as the orks before the orks got updated, then again they might just get updated in White Dwarf...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Bounty Hunter 999 said:


> space wolves are probably going to get a new codex soon because they were as old as the orks before the orks got updated, then again they might just get updated in White Dwarf...


we deserve better than WD


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> we deserve better than WD


And the Blood Angels don't?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> And the Blood Angels don't?


no they don't:biggrin:


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Shit, all of you should have already had a new codex before they even released one for the codex chapters. It's like the Demonhunters and Dark Eldar, when was the last time they had an update? 3rd. edition?. GW is slacking. They are making decisions based on how much money they can get and not what their established fan base needs.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> Shit, all of you should have already had a new codex before they even released one for the codex chapters. It's like the Demonhunters and Dark Eldar, when was the last time they had an update? 3rd. edition?. GW is slacking. They are making decisions based on how much money they can get and not what their established fan base needs.


I disagree,Not every area has the same mix of players interested in armies. I have NEVER seen a player come to a game shop with a daemonhunters army, I only saw dark eldar at a shop that had a reputation for the dark eldar players cheating by mis measuring movement, and I have only known 1 tyranid player. 
This doesn't mean that GW should get rid of these ranges, but it does mean that those ranges are not selling as well where I am. If the rest of the world is similar, why should GW continue to create and support a miniature line that does not sell?


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm not saying they sould get rid of them either. I am saying that maybe if they would show those long neglected armies some love, more players might get interested in them and the players that already have those armies wont be left behind trying to compete with a new recently tweaked army list that, lets face it, have a big advantage over older army lists.

And now you know 2 Tyranid players:wink:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> no they don't:biggrin:


What makes you say that, exactly?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> What makes you say that, exactly?


Because it's more of a Death Company army list more than one representing how the Blood Angels actually fight. [insert repeat from my post a couple pages back]. 

The Blood Angels are, at the end of the day, a Codex Chapter. They have some unique hardware, and a genetic flaw that affects a small percentage of the brethren, though invariably the Angel's Pain is felt at some point in their career. But they're organized as a Codex Chapter nonetheless, though. The new Space Marine Codex represents how they fight far better than the Blood Angels Codex does. And that's why the Angel's Finest only got the White Dwarf treatment.


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

Odds are we can just port over all our special units (ICs, DC at 30 pts ea., Furioso and Baal) and play a damn fine Blood Angels army with the new Codex. It's really the easiest method.

Some things don't transition well (Mephiston's stat line) but there really is no reason I've yet found that this shouldn't work. I do have to emphasize the *YET*, but so far so good.

Hell it might take the studio a day or so to chop up the .PDF to say "See Codex: Space Marine". Their stand alone codex crap can go right out the window since it's a free download not something they'd have to re-print and sell.:wink:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The BA are a codex chapter In essence but they still have moderate divergences. Large use of assault squads, Baal predators, Sanguinary priests (not a choice but you get me) The chaplain's different role in the army, veteran assault squads, jump pack honour guards all that stuff make the chapter a BA chapter. Saying they're just codex marines with DC is wrong But I know wher your coming from. Ther are a lot of people who over do the DC....


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> What makes you say that, exactly?


because there all a bunch of Vampire sissy's :biggrin:

not like us Wolves


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> because there all a bunch of Vampire sissy's :biggrin:
> 
> not like us Wolves


Does that mean ye can lick your own balls?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> Does that mean ye can lick your own balls?


yes, but thats a good thing :laugh:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Lucky you.... It would be pretty funny to see grimnar surrounded by Fenrisian wolves all doing that.... I might try and model it:laugh:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> because there all a bunch of Vampire sissy's :biggrin:
> 
> not like us Wolves


Hop on Vassal sometime and we'll see who's the sissy.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> Lucky you.... It would be pretty funny to see grimnar surrounded by Fenrisian wolves all doing that.... I might try and model it:laugh:


You've got a Golden Demon winner right there.:laugh:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> You've got a Golden Demon winner right there.:laugh:


To the Greenstuff!!! nananananananana greenstuff! 

I'm looking for some cheap woves now... They seem surprisingly rare.....


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> To the Greenstuff!!! nananananananana greenstuff!
> 
> I'm looking for some cheap woves now... They seem surprisingly rare.....



I've got a better idea: Dogs Playing Poker, with Ragnar or Grimnar sitting in the midsts of it ;-)


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## beeny13 (Mar 30, 2008)

so... back onto the topic


does anyone think that it is still worth it to use the ba codex, or is it really just plain worse

there have to be some units that are more powerful/efficient than the new codex.
does it just mean that if you want a ba dex army there are only a few builds, because the rest would be so much better with the marines codex.

personally i have a diy chapter, but i have always liked the blood angels most. so i would like to keep using them. in 5th i don't think they are that bad, but at the same time i think they are unusual in that their troops are one of their weakest points which is not a good place to be in for 2/3 of the missions.

every time i make a 1500 point army i end up with a 2 troops force, because they just don't have the same amount of firepower or durability of any other foc slot


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Hop on Vassal sometime and we'll see who's the sissy.


tried it, but Vassal doesn't work for me


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

Blood Angels are still a damn fine army, with or without any of the new C:SM changes. I ran into a new model SMurf army last night and beat the hell out of it. Vanguard can't stand up to VAS, let alone DC, when supported by Dante or a Chaplain. New Tacticals tend to cost about 30 points less than their BA equivalent. And what do you know that's the cost of one "optional" DC marine.

Combat Tactics is not nearly as useful as Rites of Battle. The 5e Morale Rules are a bear if you lose that Vet Sgt or have a Combat Squad. But our across the board 10 lets you hold out and not suffer the extra wounds and also split your forces without caring which unit has the Veteran. I'm a little nervous about the new Librarian powers but since we can negate from anywhere on the tabletop it's not all that bad.

Look, we are going to face a ton of Assault Termies and Vortex of Doom tossing Librarians for a while. But it's not going to be all that hard to counter either one. Terminators are still a lot of points and Librarians are only I4. Shoot the hell out of the former with Bolters and kick the arse of the latter in HtH.


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## Gambit14 (Aug 30, 2008)

well for my BA army... Im going to eventually buy all the new models, and if someone says I cant use them, ill just say they represent regular veterans, not sternguard or whatever it is, the landraider I wont get, I have 8 tanks already :S


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I used to think it was a rubbish system to have a core marine codex and addon books for other chapters. Back in 3rd edition you got the BA, DA, SW and BT books as supplements for the smurf list. Everyone got the same version of the basic stuff, like tanks. 

It was fine to bring out a list like salamanders, with really not a lot different to the basic book apart from some fluffy new bits of wargear, because it didn't have to justify a full codex release. They were able to do a quite successful index astartes series that introduced some minor special rules for chapters like the iron hands as well.

Now the situation is ridiculous. A marine is a marine, a land raider is a land raider. They should go back to the old system.

I saw a guy the other day using a space wolf list and it worked really well. Some things probably worked too well, like his 600 point terminator squad with every kind of weapon combo imagineable and 4 cyclones in it, plus 4 dogs for taking low-ap hits. 

Since the wolf list tells you to take units and wargear from the marine codex it automatically updates if the marine codex changes. Wolves therefore get the shiny new land raider crusaders to ride around in while black templars ones don't even have the assault vehicle rule. Their codex is 9 years old, dates back to 3rd edition, and works better than the 1 year old BA list. Something is wrong there.

I used to complain that the problem with addon lists was that they weren't properly playtested. The craftworld eldar book caused immense trouble for one thing and there was a long problem with codex creep. Then they started putting things like lash into full release codexes anyway, so this argument lost any meaning.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Their codex is 9 years old, dates back to 3rd edition, and works better than the 1 year old BA list. Something is wrong there.


More like someone back then had good enough hindsight to make sure the SW codex worked for a very long time without needing updates of its own. (Possibly something the people designing it were told to do back then?)


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I'm with dan here. I played some guy with the new codex ( don't know how he had it. I think he knows a manager somewhere) And I crushed him. I was outnumbered but still even though his sternguard assaulted after DSing I stil kicked 7 shades of shamrocks( I am Irish:biggrin out of him. The BA codex's wargear was it's main drop but Through good ol' fashioned BA fighting, I won.... I still think the BA codex is highly competitive and isn't just a Smurf list with DC.....


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