# Which Primarch Left the Heresy with the Least?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I want you heretics to really think about this one. From what every single Primarch lost during the Heresy, which Primarch do you think left the Heresy with less than the rest, and why? 

Don't be afraid about right or wrong answers but I will encourage debates. Some will probably say that the dead primarchs lost the most, as they no longer exist. But perhaps, you could also say they left the Heresy with pride and honor for their chapters or left legions. Or in Horus' case he left his name forever in infamy. Some will respond in saying that they lost a lot of their legion. Maybe they lost more than others due to where they where they were located at the time or perhaps their worlds and way of life were destroyed. So who do you think lost the most?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Horus. He had everything, all the might of the imperium at his fingertips, and then was dragged into an inevitable defeat by the actions of his brother. He lost everything. 

(going by the assumption that Horus didn't die on Davin(sp?) but was being virtually controlled by a daemon..... I am to tired to articulate this properly)


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Horus, not only did he lose but he was blown into oblivion, the Emperor destroyed his soul meaning there is nothing left of him, at all.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Corax. Poor sucker, not only got his legion butchered but in his haste to rebuild, he created monsters. It seemed, he not only failed, but in trying to redeem himself failed even harder. Not to mention later on his chapter is still pretty screwed. 

I say he takes the cake for being most defeated in the Heresy.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

Ferrus. He lost his head.

Also, his veterans were destroyed. His trust in his dearest brother was shattered. He got his ass handed to him twice. He lost faith in himself because he couldn't understand why anyone would think he'd turn. And he lost credibility for not heeding Fulgrim's words about who had turned to Horus and then as a consequence walked into a trap.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

The Thousand Sons. Magnus who thought he was the smartest in the galaxy was fooled int damning his legion. Ended up getting driven to the EoT when he wanted nothing but to stay loyal but was also probably the first to fall to chaos even when he did not relise it.


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## Electric-Ashes (Mar 24, 2011)

I would have to say Magnus too, if only because most of his legion is nothing more than dust now.


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

Hmm well who lost the most, ignoring all dead primarchs, id say corax as not only was his legion almost destroyed he left in shame after unseuccesfully trying to speed up their recruitment


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

If I understood the gist of the thread, I'd have to say Konrad Curze.

He did all the big E's dirty work and then got the middle finger from him in the end. He never was liked by his fellow brothers either.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Magnus: he lost his homeplanet, most of his marines, most of hist fleet ,and a titan


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Magnus: he lost his homeplanet, most of his marines, most of hist fleet ,and a titan


So did almost all of the traitor legions.

Magnus was conceited as was Horus. True, Chaos lured them in bla bla but most of the ones that turned to Chaos were egoistic in their own ways while the ones that remained loyal generally weren't (or to the same extent) and thus possibly the reason why they weren't corruptible.

I think Konrad is an exception, he wasn't accepted into either fold, he's an outcast to both Chaos and the Imperium/Emperor, neither embracing Chaos and totally against his father for his betrayal.

He was alone since day one, and was the only Primarch never to have been adopted by literally anyone. So he was born to an unloving father and ordered to do whatever he was told and he never said no despite what the Emperor asked of him. He was born alone on perhaps the most corrupt planet pre-heresy and never found a friend or companion even amongst his Primarch brothers. He never was praised by humanity or seen in a positive light like guilliman, dorn, horus, etc.

All his accomplishments were reduced to nothing, most of his victories were never announced due to how distasteful they were, he was deemed a traitor, and he destroyed his own planet and people. And worst of all he predicted some parts of the heresy many years before they happened so he was haunted constantly by these nightmarish visions.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I'll have to agree and go with Konrad Cruze.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

If Abnett and ADB had a baby, I'm sure he could make a movie based on Curze's life which would win like 80 oscars and have everyone in the room crying hysterically.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Kurze, he did everything he got asked to do and was then shunned by the one being who should have loved him. Poor bastard.

Midnight


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Kurze, he did everything he got asked to do and was then shunned by the one being who should have loved him. Poor bastard.
> 
> Midnight


This is which one lost the most...not the saddest one.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

spoilers for legion









i would argue alpharius omegon as the one that lost the most of themselves in the heresy.

sacrificing any notion of comradeship from your father and other legions (i know he didnt fit in v well with them but still) in order to fight a secret war seeking to perpetuate the imperium you believe in but in doing so fighting and killing those loyal
and for what?! only to find that in doing so you create the stagnation and decay you were fighting to prevent.

saying that i do think that magnus is a v strong second must admit; mainly because he killed the webway project stone dead and ultimately condemming the emperor to the prison of the golden throne


also in ref to curze yes his was a terrible life but he seemed to embrace it all willingly knowing that that was his role.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was too tired to put my response. But for now, I'm going to say Vulkan. The Primarch who seemed to be the kindest lost the entirety of his legion. His legion that even now cannot even make a full chapter. I'll give it more thought though.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Man hard question, I would have to say Fulgrim, he lost all semblance of honor, decency and even control of his body. To come out of the heresy being able to see what you've done to both your legion and the galaxy, regret it, but unable to do anything at all to try and help reverse it would drive anyone insane


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Cowlicker16 said:


> Man hard question, I would have to say Fulgrim, he lost all semblance of honor, decency and even control of his body. To come out of the heresy being able to see what you've done to both your legion and the galaxy, regret it, but unable to do anything at all to try and help reverse it would drive anyone insane


This is true.

though I heard many said Horus, I would argue that Horus knew what he was doing when he threw everything away. He just wanted to be heard. And in the end he definitely was. So in a sense he walked away with everything he wanted.

I am of course referring to the part in his "death dream" where he saw every other primarch's statue except for his. Basically his breaking point into becoming a pawn of chaos.


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Magnus.

But in essence Horus as he was killed, his soul sucked off to somewhere not very nice and Abaddon got his claw to boot!


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

could be corax as on top of all the isstvaan happenings and the monstermaking he was given THE WORST LAST WORDS EVER......."nevermore"........no, just no and no


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Any of the three legions at the Dropsite Massacre. They were all almost completely destroyed, one lost it's primarch and their veterans. Vulkan and Corax lost their brother Ferrus, and Corax in his haste to rebuild his legion, created monsters that he himself put down. 

The worst off would be Ferrus I believe. First primarch to die (not counting the two missing primarchs) and his legion had to rebuild without his leadership and the leadership of their veterans.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

polynike said:


> Magnus.
> 
> But in essence Horus as he was killed, his soul sucked off to somewhere not very nice and Abaddon got his claw to boot!


Actually his soul was destroyed.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> All his accomplishments were reduced to nothing, most of his victories were never announced due to how distasteful they were, he was deemed a traitor, and he destroyed his own planet and people. And worst of all he predicted some parts of the heresy many years before they happened so he was haunted constantly by these nightmarish visions.


I disagree. I think Night Haunter was possibly the only traitor to come out of the Heresy with a 'victory'. He showed that his father was no better than he was. He destroyed the planet that had destroyed his legion and then broke the legion which had broken his heart. Nothing that happened to him and his legion was not of his design. He never sought brotherhood, he never sought acceptance or praise. He knew that what he did was necessary and his fathers actions both before and during the Heresy proved his point.

Death is nothing compared to vindication.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I say the two missing primarchs. They didn't do shit
but seriously, obviously Horus because he was completley destroyed but also I agree with Corax and Vulkan the most. I guess you could say Magnus too.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I disagree. I think Night Haunter was possibly the only traitor to come out of the Heresy with a 'victory'. He showed that his father was no better than he was.


That was a moral victory that was personal to him. It wasn't worth anything to anyone other than himself and his loyal followers.



MEQinc said:


> He destroyed the planet that had destroyed his legion


How did the planet destroy his legion? He destroyed it mostly out of spite because in his absence, the people resorted back to their old ways proving that his method of inspiring fear and punishment was necessary 24/7 to make sure man obeys the law.



MEQinc said:


> and then broke the legion which had broken his heart.


He destroyed the planet because of what had become of the populace he thought he cured. He's too cold to have a heart, apparently he didn't give a damn about his legion either.



MEQinc said:


> Nothing that happened to him and his legion was not of his design.He never sought brotherhood, he never sought acceptance or praise.


How do you know he never did? We only know that his brothers gave him the cold shoulder. I don't think the first time he met the Primarchs he gave them the middle finger than ran to his room, I'm sure they all thought he was beneath them especially when they found out about his upbringing. 

If anything I'm sure once he realized there were others like him, he desperately sought out their attention but was spurned by his brothers who had a decent life prior to meeting the Emperor.



MEQinc said:


> He knew that what he did was necessary and his fathers actions both before and during the Heresy proved his point. Death is nothing compared to vindication.


Yup, but what did Kurze gain out of his service to the emperor? Absolutely nothing, not even glory. He gained a personal victory over the Emperor in that he proved he was a hypocrite but that was just between him and his father.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Sanguinus lost his life, and at the same time his entire legion was cursed for the rest of eternity. 

Lion found that his best friend had betrayed him and that ended up with his home being blown up and him being in some deep ass sleep coma. 

Yea, those two.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm surprised no one has said Fulgrim yet. He came to a legion that had suffered a catastrophic disaster at it's inception. He had to live in his brother's shadow, and not just any brother, his father's FAVORITE brother; Horus. To even measure up to such an icon, he had to be perfect. His whole legion and energy was bent on making his legion perfect. Nothing was ever good enough. This meant he could be tempted, and dragged down and seduced to Chaos. 

Him and his legion were so deluded, blinded by their pursuit of perfection. And then, the ultimate moment of betrayal. As a final taunt, the Laerian blade kills Fulgrim's closest brother before his eyes, and allows him to see what him and his legion have become. Fulgrim's heart is broken, and he realizes what a colossal mistake him and his brothers have made. In this moment, Fulgrim surrenders himself, wishing for it all to end. Instead, the daemon traps him within his own body and forces him to watch as he carve a merry path of debauchery, all the way to Terra.

Fulgrim lost his legion to chaos, lost his free-will and is forced to watch for all eternity as the daemon inhabiting his body wreak destruction upon the Imperium he loved and helped create. Unlike primarchs like Konrad, who was vindicated in death, and Horus, who (depending upon you interpretation of fluff) was either made infamous and will be remembered forever (which was what he wanted on Davin) or realized the error of his ways and then put out of his misery, Fulgrim is doomed to suffer forever.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> That was a moral victory that was personal to him. It wasn't worth anything to anyone other than himself and his loyal followers.


Your point being? He achieved his goals. He achieved his personal goals which means that he didn't lose the most in the heresy.



> How did the planet destroy his legion? He destroyed it mostly out of spite because in his absence, the people resorted back to their old ways proving that his method of inspiring fear and punishment was necessary 24/7 to make sure man obeys the law.


When Nostromo slipped back into anarchy it filled his legion with cruel, sadistic, power thirsty monsters. Turning what was once a pure force for justice into a sadistic force bent on asserting power over others. 



> He destroyed the planet because of what had become of the populace he thought he cured. He's too cold to have a heart, apparently he didn't give a damn about his legion either.


He certainly seems to have cared about his legion, or at least part of him cared for part of the legion. He had a much more personal relationship with some of his marines than I've seen in any other Primarch. He loved them and hated them for what they had become, just like he did himself.



> How do you know he never did? We only know that his brothers gave him the cold shoulder. I don't think the first time he met the Primarchs he gave them the middle finger than ran to his room, I'm sure they all thought he was beneath them especially when they found out about his upbringing.


While I can't say for certain I'm making an assumption based on his apparent behavior in the fluff I've read. He sacrificed his humanity for the good of humanity and in doing so sacrificed his ability to have brothers. I doubt he flipped them off, he simply never approached them for friendship. 



> If anything I'm sure once he realized there were others like him, he desperately sought out their attention but was spurned by his brothers who had a decent life prior to meeting the Emperor.


None of them were like him. He would have figured this out in moments. He doesn't seem to seek out attention from any of them. He doesn't even really seem to seek attention from the Emperor. 



> Yup, but what did Kurze gain out of his service to the emperor? Absolutely nothing, not even glory. He gained a personal victory over the Emperor in that he proved he was a hypocrite but that was just between him and his father.


While he gained nothing from his service he certainly gained something from his acts in the Heresy. The whole reason Night Haunter joined with Horus was because he wanted to prove his father a hypocrite. The fact that he achieved this goal (and was probably the only traitor to do so) clearly makes him not the Primarch who lost the most.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wow, what a question. 

In terms of Legion size and resources it would come down to a 3 way in Magnus, Vulkan, and Corax.

In Terms of themselves it would be Fulgrim.

In terms of Being Faithful and doing the Right Thing only to be outcasted it would be a tie between Cruz and Alpha/Omegon.

In Terms of all of the above I say definatly Horus.

Now if you were to ask which Primarch gain the most, well thats easy, that sleazy bastard Guilliman.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

If 'tragedy' is the main thrust of the answer, yes I would go with Magnus and Fulgrim. Magnus would also be an answer on a more empirical analysis as well.

In agreeance with Deus Mortis, the experience by Fulgrim was tragic, and the book conveys this quite well. Combine this with the missed opportunity to make a good impression with the Eldar (if that could even make a difference) and subsequent murder of Guilliman, the EC really didnt endear themselves to the good and righteous of the galaxy. But hey, if they wanted to leave a tortured, evil legacy on the galaxy, they got it - maybe they didnt 'lose out'.

For me, the legion that 'lost' the most are the legions who lost the greatest Primarchs, those Primarchs that could have accomplished so much, and fulfilled the Es vision for humanity. Or any great vision.
So Horus, for sure has to be there.
Sanguinius I would place in there. Horus himself states Sang would have been a great Warmaster, and Im sure was one of the E's favourite for a reason - strong, just, ambitious, fluffy wings etc.

But for me its Magnus - he was Anakin Skywalker for me - if he had stayed good (oh Im sorry, 'loyal and compliant'), we wouldnt be talking about WarHammer40k it would be HomoSapiens40k. 
(Question whether Horus had access to pariahs as the SW did [courtesy of the E] to have been able to combat the TS if they had been around in the subsequent galactic war...)

My impression from reading Thousand Sons and elsewhere is that he was such a powerful psychic even the Chaos gods didnt want to have a swipe at him. And he appears to be the only one to regularly (?) commune psychically with the E, and shared the way of the future: psychic dominance. He could have been Horus x100 in my opinion.

And then theres the loss of Prospero, which the last 2 books quite clearly convey how tragic that was for humanity.

Tears for the The Jolly Red Giant and his Thousand Sons.


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## Rabid40k'er (Mar 28, 2011)

I would have to say Fulgrim is the most tragic. In his pursuit of perfection he not only damned himself, but his brothers as well. Not only that, but he killed 2 of his fellow Primarchs, and is trapped for all eternity in his own body, which has now been turned into a daemon snake thing and when the time comes, he will unwillingly kill even more of his human brothers.


The concept of a prison lasting an eternity is not only frightening but experiencing it must be awful. Fulgrim has nobody to talk to, all he can do is watch. FOR ALL ETERNITY. He can't even kill himself because' he'll just be reassembled in the warp.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Rabid has a really good point. Kudos man.

I would agree and say Fulgrim. 
- Trapped for all eternity, and enslaved by evil to do evil against those he strived to protect. I dont know about you, but that sounds like the perfect hell. A kind of sadistic mental torture if you will. 
- Watching his beloved brother Ferrus killed before his eyes with his possessed body. 
- His honor tarnished for turning to chaos and despised by humanity with no way to defend himself or to clear his name.
- Forever a slave to Chaos.
- His own sons (EC) lost in their perfections and worshipping something he despises. 
( I would be sad too if my own soldiers joined the enemies side and I couldnt do a damn thing. )

Next would probably be the 3 legions on Istavaan. Then the Luna Wolves (not counting Horus because he got what he wanted for the most part.) , Alpha Legion, Dark Angels and Blood Angels because they lost their primarch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Sanguinius - Sacrificed himself for the Emperor which was pointless as the Emperor was still mortally wounded fighting Horus. Add that to the fact that his death left his legion with one hell of a genetic flaw. Yeah, Sanguinius really got a raw deal.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

At LEAST Sanguinius died a Martyr. He is known and loved by all and praised as a Saint. While poor Fulgrim is decried, banned and labeled as a Heretic for all ETERNITY. He is not dead, but still alive. Death would be really nice for him, but too bad. He is now a DP. He cant die and stay dead. He is stuck being a slave for the very things he despises. He betrayed the Emperor while Sang didnt. At least Sang redeemed himself, while Fulgrim has no such chance. Also if you think Sang's legion has it bad with a genetic defect, Fulgrims legion is now binded to Chaos forever. I would have to say thats worse and if the BA had a choice- Chaos or Major genetic defect, which would they choose? Its pretty obvious.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, but I measure what they lost against their actions. Fulgrim and The Emperor's Children fucked themselves over. Fulgrim has no one but himself to blame for where he ended up. He was the one who let a friggin' sword mindfuck him into turning traitor and killing one of his brothers. And then he let himself get possessed because he was too much of a pussy to deal with what he did. All Sang tried to do was be the loyal, helping son. That's why I consider his loss greater. Fulgrim deserved what he got, Sanguinius didn't.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't even begin to see Magnus as the biggest case. Maybe before i read A Thousand Sons, but whilst alot of people seem to read Thousand Sons and come out of it feeling immensely sorry for Magnus, i thought quite the opposite. Thousand Sons showed us truely how arrogant and blind the Thousand Sons and Magnus really were. They were arrogant beyond belief, had an extreme amount of hubris and were juggling with powers they didn't even begin to comprehend yet thought they were the masters of it. No, Magnus case is tragic, but just not as much as people make out imo.

Horus? His fall was much more tragic, but in the end i still can't say he didn't deserve what he got in the end. 

Fulgrim aswell, sure his end result was tragic, but his fall was as much his own doing due to his pride and quest for perfection as it was the fault of the deamon blade. Plus some of you forget, he did kill Ferrus, he wasn't trapped in his mind at that point, it was only after that he requested the deamon end him(though it didn't go to plan). Again since his fall was like Magnus, his own doing to a degree, i can't give him the title.

Kurze is a huge contender, i agree with what others have said on him and won't repeat them to much. But yeah, he became exactly what the Emperor needed him to be, what the Emperor could not be, yet required. He willingly seperated himself from his brothers and the Imperium to be that weapon. And in the end he was cast out because of it and assassinated. 

Dorn got a pretty raw ending aswell. He has been tasked with the Emperors protection, it was his and his legions sole duty to safeguard Terra and the Emperor, granted it was at a time when they wouldn't even begin to think the Legions would turn, but i doubt Dorn would accept that excuse for himself. And then he failed. His defences fell and the Emperor was forced to make a last ditch gamble and confront Horus. When Dorn finally arrived, not only was his brother Sanguinius dead, but the Emperor was mortally wounded and crippled, he had failed to save him in that regard aswell. There was nothing he could have done about it, but again i doubt Dorn would see it that way.

Sanguinius is also tragic. Betrayed by his closest brother, one he shared one of the closest relationships with. Sent to Signus to die, watched his Legion slaughtered and a darkness take over them and wounded terribly himself. He forsees his own death, yet stays loyal and confronts his erstwhile brother anyway. Is subsequently killed in one of the most painful and horrfic ways and his entire once noble and just legion are cursed for eternity.

In the end i think i'm also going to go with Kurze.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

Number one for me is Magnus. It just seems that Magnus and the TSons got the rawest deal. Ultimately loyal, seeking greater enlightenment, all in the name of the Emperor. Magnus and the TSons were such amazingly strong assets in all ways, to not just be turned aside, but hunted like animals. Imagine had big E allowed Magnus to remain at his side and continue to gain knowledge and exerience unrestricted how much stronger the Imperium could have been; conjecture for sure, but it could have been amazing. Instead they were reduced to ashes, literally. They were taken from what many would say was approaching the highest acheivements in the history of mankind to relative obscurity. Such a waste, and a serious downfall.

When you look at were legions were before the Heresy and after, its tough to fall further than the Thousand Sons did. Going from being able to durastically alter the future of the entire universe to being a non-entity. Ouch.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Zaden said:


> Number one for me is Magnus. It just seems that Magnus and the TSons got the rawest deal. Ultimately loyal, seeking greater enlightenment, all in the name of the Emperor. Magnus and the TSons were such amazingly strong assets in all ways, to not just be turned aside, but hunted like animals. Imagine had big E allowed Magnus to remain at his side and continue to gain knowledge and exerience unrestricted how much stronger the Imperium could have been; conjecture for sure, but it could have been amazing. Instead they were reduced to ashes, literally. They were taken from what many would say was approaching the highest acheivements in the history of mankind to relative obscurity. Such a waste, and a serious downfall.
> 
> When you look at were legions were before the Heresy and after, its tough to fall further than the Thousand Sons did. Going from being able to durastically alter the future of the entire universe to being a non-entity. Ouch.


The Sons never would have reached that stage though. They are and always were, tools for Tzeentch, living on borrowed time until Tzeentch called in on his deal with Magnus. They were always, always going to fall, it was never a case of if, only when.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

No matter how the Emperor conducted himself? It was a foregone conclusion?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yep, pretty much. Didn't help that the rivalry between the Sons and Vlka Fenrka was engineered from the outset aswell.

Theres simply nothing that could have been done. Nikea or not, they were doomed.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I have to call BS on that one. If it was fate then there wouldnt be a Fate Weaver trying to give Tzeentch the possible future every day. Even Tzeentch (or any Chaos God) cant control the fates to the tiniest detail. Magnus could have been freed of Tzeentch if the Emperor didnt deliver him to Tzeentchs claws.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Magnus delivered Magnus into Tzeentch's claws. His father told him everything of the Warp, showing him, and teaching him, what he dare not do for the other Primarchs. Left alone, Magnus' colossal arrogance brought him down, nothing else. 

OT. I'd have to add that Horus lost the most. If he had left Terra before Loyalist reinforcements had arrived, he would have gained the most. But, whilst his traitor-brothers gained immortality and power, Horus was utterly obliterated. His Legion, his life, his soul; there's nothing else to be lost.
Intersting, the change in Horus just before his death. The power of the Emperor forced the Chaos gods to abandon Horus, leaving him suddenly clear and his old self, although he begged for death as he wouldn't be able to resist the blandishments of Chaos. If the Big E had lived, would he have been similarly able to free his other lost sons? If he could, would they have been able to stay clear? If not, might Soul Binding have helped? (Rhetorical questions, not asked to threadjack.)

GFP


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I have to call BS on that one. If it was fate then there wouldnt be a Fate Weaver trying to give Tzeentch the possible future every day. Even Tzeentch (or any Chaos God) cant control the fates to the tiniest detail. Magnus could have been freed of Tzeentch if the Emperor didnt deliver him to Tzeentchs claws.


 
What? Have you not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Alpharius/Omegon - lost his loyalty to the Imperium, maybe one of the twins dead, hasnt ascended to Deamonhood, so is considered to be a legion of mystery.
Angron - Lost his mind to brain implants and is unstable - probably doesnt even know he is on the side of chaos.
Corax - Fought against the breaking up of the Legions and experimented with his geneseed to make quicker astartes and made monsters. Another Primarch who may still be alive but who ran off on a quest.
Rogal Dorn - died bravely defending the Emperor. Terra and the Imperium.
Fulgrim - Lost his mind and his soul to a Deamon
Roboute Guilliman - Could have been an Emperor - had the biggest legion - wrote the codex - now lies in stasis, frozen in near death state with an uncurable poison.
Horus - Was warmaster - was the Emperors favourite - the supreme Primarch - fell to chaos - and spiritually erased by the Emperor.
Lion El'Johnson - had a civil war with Luther and is now in the Rock.
Jaghatai Khan - dissappeared into the webway chasing DE.
Lorgar - Lost his love of the Emperor and turned the chaos gods - becoming the architect of the fall to chaos of the traitor legions.
Magnus - Tricked into making a pact with chaos to save his legion from mutation, tricked into damaging the webway and the golden throne trying to help the emperor, tricked into fighting russ, tricked into the EoT to save his legion. The Primarch with the highest IQ - he must really hurt inside.
Ferrus Manus - made all the weapons of the Primarchs, betrayed by his best friend Fulgrim who beheaded him.
Mortarion - lost his loyalty to the Imperium, became loyal to Horus, now has a Planet in EoT where he can play soldiers and sieges for all eternity, probably quiet happy.
Perturabo - Lost in space, became Plague Marines by doing a deal with Nurgle, probably quiet unhappy.
Leman Russ - Ran off to EoT - probably to kill magnus.
Sanguinus - Killed by Horus in mortal combat defending the Empire
Vulkan - I havn't the Foggiest idea. 

So who lost the most or ended up with least.
Horus lost his entire existance, and all his rank and power as Warmaster. - He lost the Most.

Ended up with least? All the Loyal Primarchs are dead, in stasis or ran away.

Of the Traitor Primarchs if they are not too insane to be able to know regret, Magnus, Mortarion or Fulgrim - none of them wanted to be traitors, all of them tricked, Fulgrim screams for all eternity in the small place inside his soul where his possessing deamon allows him to exist.

So maybe Fulgrim, though Magnus really tried to be loyal to the Imperium and was able before his fall to be beset with real grief.

Yet all these things were felt and experienced by the Lord of the Night, Konrad Curze himself, he felt driven out while wanting to be loyal and knew despair and nightmares of his downfall and didnt even fall to chaos, he thought chaos was a joke.

So possibley Curze because he isnt a deamon and in possession of all his faculties and his soul when experiencing becoming an outcast Legion - which he didnt want. He lost everything and chose death.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You appear to have mixed Perturabo and Mortarion around ^^


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Actually I think I'll change my mind from Vulkan to Fulgrim.

I think the thing with Fulgrim was that he tried to do the right thing, but in the end just screwed up everything.

He starts off the crusade with 200 astartes, does so well to make himself and his legion perfect in the Eyes of the Emperor. Gains the respect and honor of having the Aquila. But thats not enough, they try to do more. 

Here comes Horus, the Primarch the Emperor and Fulgrim have complete faith in, and he tells Fulgrim how wrong the Imperium and the Emperor have been. Seeing some truth to what he says he tries to do the right thing and join Horus. Also tries to save his brother Ferrus Manus from the Emperor's Clutches. But in the end... he kills him, finds out he was wrong the whole time. Everything just so messed up, as his legion consumes itself with perfection and pleasure. Lastly, he choses to not live with himself.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I think the Daemon Primarchs are the only ones you can totally say actually made good for themselves. All loyalist are pretty much dead or in a dead-isch state, Night Haunter is dead and Alpharius is rumored (but most probably not) dead. Horus was oblirerated.

Of the loyalist, I would say Corax or Sanguinius. of the traitors I would say Horus or Magnus.

Edit: Also you thief for creating this thread, have been thinking a long time to creat one just like this.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> I think the Daemon Primarchs are the only ones you can totally say actually made good for themselves. All loyalist are pretty much dead or in a dead-isch state, Night Haunter is dead and Alpharius is rumored (but most probably not) dead. Horus was oblirerated.
> 
> Of the loyalist, I would say Corax or Sanguinius. of the traitors I would say Horus or Magnus.
> 
> Edit: Also you thief for creating this thread, have been thinking a long time to creat one just like this.


Maybe. Its totally possible. But then again, they could also have the burden of trying to please their gods.

Perturabo is actually stated in _Iron Warrior_ to be seated on his throne just sitting their for ten lifetimes full of hate. Maybe its hinting perhaps there is some regret.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> You appear to have mixed Perturabo and Mortarion around ^^


In what way friend - :friends:

Perturabo is the Iron Warriors Primarch endlessly warring even amonst themselves, which is their primary passion.

Mortarion is Primarch of the Death Guard - now Plague Marines, children of Nurgle - which now you come to mention it - is also a fate I would be hard pressed to think as a worse one.

So that makes another candidate for worst fate of all.

Might as well turn the thread on its head and say which Primarch came out of the HH with anything good. :biggrin:


I think ill do just that in a new Post - just for fun.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why does he think you got them mixed up?
Because this:


MuSigma said:


> Mortarion - [deleted for space] where he can play soldiers and sieges for all eternity, probably quiet happy.


and this:


MuSigma said:


> Perturabo - Lost in space, became Plague Marines by doing a deal with Nurgle, probably quiet unhappy.


Are wrong.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> In what way friend - :friends:
> 
> Perturabo is the Iron Warriors Primarch endlessly warring even amonst themselves, which is their primary passion.
> 
> ...


You did mix them up. Go re-read your post. You said Perturabo was stuck in the warp and pledged himself to Nurgle while Mortarion was warring on some planet in the EoT. Plus Mortarion is on the plague planet I believe, not lost in the warp


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Oooops me bad

Perturabo = Iron Warriors, Olympia then Medrengard and serve Chaos Undivided.

Mortarion = Death Guard, Barbarus then Plague Planet and serve Nurgle.

got it - sorry - calm down everyone.

Call of the the murder death squads of the Department Sclolastica for incorrect historical accuracy as a possible form of Heresy.

Who follow the Imperial Botanica in their application to the Inquisition for a death squad to enforce the elevation of their pet peeve to level of full blown heresy, accorded to anyone caught walking on the grass, talking in libraries, running in corridors and wearing load trousers.
All such attempts to become Imperial Law at the Council of petty trivia were forestalled by no body actually attending.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> What? Have you not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?


Please nothing is a forgone conclusion or Draigo would have been killed awhile back but he defies the Chaos Gods in their backyard. That Brother Captain who defies the LoC/Tzeentch DP everytime shows his fate is not Forgone. The Soul Drinker had played into Tzeenthes hands, accepted his gifts, helped his DP defeat a rivals DP, and guess what? Their not Tzeentches Pwn as he had his DP plan for them. So yeah I read the books and to say Magnus joining Tzeentch is forgone conclusion is BS.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm going to have to jump on the Fulgrim bandwagon.

Loss ultimately comes with emotional attachment and damage. In that sense, Fulgrim has suffered the most because of his fall.

1. No Primarch invested as much of themselves in their Legion as Fulgrim did. Validity of pursuing perfection aside, Fulgrim's dreams were destroyed when he realized what the Emperor's Children had become on Isstvan V.
2. Fulgrim betrayed and killed his best friend. Then, he was allowed to feel the totality of his actions.
3. Fulgrim is forced to be confronted with the horror of his deeds for eternity. Worse, he's forced to accept the fact that the being in control of his body--and his Legion--will do even more evil in his name for the millennia to come.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Please nothing is a forgone conclusion or Draigo would have been killed awhile back but he defies the Chaos Gods in their backyard. That Brother Captain who defies the LoC/Tzeentch DP everytime shows his fate is not Forgone. The Soul Drinker had played into Tzeenthes hands, accepted his gifts, helped his DP defeat a rivals DP, and guess what? Their not Tzeentches Pwn as he had his DP plan for them. So yeah I read the books and to say Magnus joining Tzeentch is forgone conclusion is BS.


No the Thousand Sons were doomed. There is no ifs or buts. Tzeentch made a pact with Magnus and could cancel it at any moment, as we saw in A Thousand Sons, shit they all had their own personal deamons at their side. No matter what they did, they were all doomed, their is no way around it.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

Honestly, I'm going to have to go with Lorgar on this one.

He lost his god and father's love in one fell blow and, as a result, ended up as the striking point that set the galaxy alight in the flames of Chaos.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Maybe. Its totally possible. But then again, they could also have the burden of trying to please their gods.
> 
> Perturabo is actually stated in _Iron Warrior_ to be seated on his throne just sitting their for ten lifetimes full of hate. Maybe its hinting perhaps there is some regret.


Peturabo is truly a strange case there. Its also some hints here and there in Storm of Iron, but cant recall any at the moment. I hardly believe he regret switching side, only that they failed perhaps. I think he deserves a HH-novel.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Electric-Ashes said:


> I would have to say Magnus too, if only because most of his legion is nothing more than dust now.


But he is still alive, and one of the most powerful beings in existence. Horus is deader than dead. He was corrupted against his will, played like a pawn by Lorgar into betraying his father. After his death, Abaddon took up his mantle, and eventually destroyed his body to prevent him from being cloned, and changed the name of his legion as to erase him from memory. The most loyal son was mind raped into betraying everything he once held dear, and then was completely destroyed. 

If it hadn't been for the heresy, he would probably be ruling side by side with his father.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Peturabo is truly a strange case there. Its also some hints here and there in Storm of Iron, but cant recall any at the moment. I hardly believe he regret switching side, only that they failed perhaps. I think he deserves a HH-novel.


Yes and no. Perturabo is the one primarch that went out of his way to please the Emperor. I think in Index Astartes it states he was one of the easiest to accept the Emperor. He tried so hard but go so far. And in the end it didn't even matter type thing.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't even begin to see Magnus as the biggest case.
> ...
> Kurze is a huge contender, i agree with what others have said on him and won't repeat them to much. But yeah, he became exactly what the Emperor needed him to be, what the Emperor could not be, yet required. He willingly seperated himself from his brothers and the Imperium to be that weapon. And in the end he was cast out because of it and assassinated.
> 
> ...



I think this thread, which may i just say has been great, is morphing into a 'which was the biggest tragedy' rather than 'which legion came out with the least.'

Because I cant understand how Curze could ever factor in any way, so I respectfully disagree with you AOB. So he felt used/ betrayed/ slighted by the Emperor, boo hoo. So did plenty of the Primarchs. Apart form that, what else did he lose to a greater degree than other legions that was of any significance? he was assasinated well after the HH (lets ignore warptime factors).

My vote for Magnus was probably more for 'whos legion's losses were more tragic for humanity' given his amazing psychic powers. You raise an interesting point that Tz had his grips on the TS anyway - fair enough - but I still think that keeping Magnus alive and active, not hunted and torched, would have been the Emperors greatest ace up the sleeve - a loyal Primarch w the psyker ability of Malcador (or thereabouts).


And to MuSigma - we've already mentioned who gained the most from the HH: our beloved Pappa Smurf Guilliman!


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

You are right to split hairs on this discussion to be honest, its not the Legion who ended the HH with least its the Primarch.

With Kurze and Magnus the tragedy is they didnt want to be disloyal, they would have done any thing to stay loyal. 

With Fulgrim he had a moment before he was possessed when he realised he had fallen and knew a terrible despair.

But its not about the biggest tragedy - its about the Primarch at the end of the HH who had the least to show for himself.

Hmm If i had a legion that had 10000 men and I lost 8000, I would have 2000 left, if I had a legion with 5000 men and lost 4000 I would have 1000 left. Legion A has lost the most, Legion B has ended with the least. As we can see we have 2 categories emerging - the Primarch that lost the most and the Primarch the ended with least.

I think being dead counts as having least to show - death = 0
Thats Ferrus Manus and Sanguinus and Horus, followed later by Kurze, Dorn, Guiiliman and Alpharius(maybe).

Next how about loosing your soul to chaos = Fulgrim.

Next Loosing your Legion to chaos unwillingly = Magnus, Mortarion possibly Kurze.
Next loosing your Legion in battle = most of them.

Anyway bugger all that listing any analysing and stuff, I vote for Vulkan.

Yes Vulkan, all the others had heroic or villainous victories or defeats the came out of the HH (so far) with one thing that supercedes all material values, with reputation for good or for evil or for despair.

The true value that history records is reputation, so the Primarch at the end of the HH with (not the lowest) smallest therefore LEAST reputation must be Vulkan.

Of course the three Salamander books are introducing the Salamanders and for all the lesser known Primarchs and Legions it takes a while for them all to get some honourable mention.


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## FallenAngelsRedeemed (Mar 30, 2011)

I would like to say that i think in a lot of ways you look at it any one of the 18 primarchs' story can be stated to lost the most so let me make my post.

Lion- while all the primarchs' had a harsh up bringing he was dropped on what was stated as a Death World so tainted by chaos that it was a wonder how he survived. Huge Achievement! Climbed to the top on his planet and went off to the crusade .. had the man who found him and was like a brother to him try and let a nuke blow up on their ship in orbit of a world (huge blow to friendship there) .. stop Horus from getting his hands on siege machines only to be scooby-doo'd by Perturbo before Istvaan (Lion didnt know of Perturbo's intentions to turn traitor and handed them over) Lion, Russ, and one other primarch try and hurry back to Terra when Horus and the traitors take the fight to the Emp only to show up after the fight is over and the Emp is basically dead by Horus's hands (how much more of a blow to you is it to be there to defend then to show up right after it ended and had not been able to do anything) .. after this Lion returns to Caliban to find it in Anarchy lead by his second in command the one who found him Luther... only to know you must now strike him down and retake Caliban from the traitors that are your own legion. Be mortally wounded by him and have Caliban blow up from chaos's anger .. now to be in stasis with jawas til needed ... with your legion running around trying to absolve this sin none of them were there to see and keep it from everyone even the lesser ranks of their own brothers and the rest of the Emperium? 

Id say the Lion has lost the most .. best friend and mentor .. his father .. planet... and his legion is a fragment of what they were ... and still has traitors from his own legion running around.. did any other legion have a civil war within itself?


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