# New Eldar Codex Impressions



## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Rage's Opening thoughts and new impressions for the new Eldar Codex

Hello 



 
This is your friendly neighborhood Ragewind, you may remember me from such 



 as "Of course you can Intercept while in CC" and "No you have to target the rider, not the bike". Today I am here to talk about what’s fresh on everyone's mind, the new Craftworld Eldar Codex. While I have been on a month long break from 40k spending my every waking hour playing Neverwinter, I have also been paying close attention to the rumors and thinking about how they impact the game. While this is just a Primer you can except (after some play testing) a fully fleshed out Guide to the Eldar. 
Please feel free to post your thoughts on what you see here, everything constructive will be added to my up-comming guide so everyone will know what to watch out for when playing for/against the new Eldar.


*Opening thoughts on the new Codex -*

After leafing through the book it seems GW has brought the Eldar more in line with other armies (namely the marines), this is nice in terms of general learning curves and skill levels at the cost of our 'Cultural identity" now. Our psykers are no more powerful than others (and in some cases more vulnerable) and a lot of our little tricks are gone replaced by brute force tactics. It's ...slightly depressing (IMO) but for the most part the book is a positive thing.

*Army wide Special Rules -*

*Battle Focus -*

Opening Thoughts - Yes, this is nice. everyone gets a move/shoot/move, or a move/move/shoot. This is a inspired rule. Although TBH a potential 6 inch move won't help you if you are close or out in the open. Be sure to Hug LOS blocking terrain

Closing Thoughts - I love it

*Fleet -* 

Opening Thoughts - Not technically a "army wide rule" but at the same time it is. Long story short everything has fleet now, see above for usefulness.

Closing Thoughts - What's not to like?

*Ancient Doom - *

Opening Thoughts - Fluffy

Closing Thoughts - Can be bad if you get in CC with Slaanesh a lot.

*Eldar Units :-*

*Wraithknight -*

Initial thoughts - It has a Land Raider price tag and can kill a Landraider, so for a 1 to 1 ratio it checks out. As for its other capabilities its kinda meh. For a hefty price tag you can replace both of its Str 10 weapons for a multi blast Str 6 weapon. This would be a fantastic option if you didn't trade BOTH of its weapons for ONE(eg. if you could take two suncannons it would be awesome). You do get a invul save out of it but its poor at a 5+, it's easier to get a better cover save for it via cover, you can also trade both of its cannons once again for a single CC weapon and that invul again. Not really worth it at all, it gets no real benefit from the CC weapon and bringing it closer to melta and other low AP weapons isn't smart even with the 5+ invul.
I do enjoy its options of "secondary weapons", although for its total price some War Walkers would be better.

Closing thoughts - Its too soon to tell if this is going to be a strong contender vs other heavy support options, especially considering the boost many of them have enjoyed. The only two "real" options are the base double heavy cannons for ranged AT (looking at you bastions) and a Suncannon with a Scatter Laser for Twin Linking. The price is high but for the high stats its understandable. Keep it away from CC, otherwise the enemy can lock it down with a group of guardsman. It also works well with either a Bastion, Fortress or a Landing Pad, as all of them ofer significant ranged protection and can even block LOS in the case of the buildings.


*Warp Spiders -*

Initial thoughts - Cheaper and Better and can potentially move up to 36 inches in a single turn, combine with the Tau warlord trait for a 3d6 secondary move and Bam! LINEBREAKER. the Monofilament rules, in terms of strength, only really matters for vehicles, "rapid fire" @ Str 7 is wondrous for bringing down vehicles (and most MC's). As for all other units your already wounding on a 2+ so you won't see a difference, however their new "rending" is fantastic and can threaten anything. Works very well with doom obviously.

Closing thoughts - if you already use Warp Spiders you are going to be very very happy, if you don't you probably should use them as they bring a lot of utility and mobility. For their price it's not bad at all.

*Wraith guard* - Cheaper and better, what's not to like? Now that you can make them troops and still only take a small squad they make excellent back field objective holders, even if the enemy drops in a Dread or a MC they can handle it. While jetbikes are still better in nearly every way for your objective capturing needs they are imposing and can make a nice addition to your army.

Closing Thoughts - harder to make a super squad with the change to how powers work, especially since they cannot grab a Warlock anymore, otherwise they function basically the same.

*Wraith Blades -* Cheaper Wraithguard that focus on CC. Lots of AP 3 attacks or a handful of AP 2 attacks, even with Fortune and such, I don't see them being particularly useful. I mean if you want Counter charge Harlies do the job better and are cheaper, even banshees and Scorps beat them. They are reliable access to Str 6 and 7 though... YMMY

Closing Thoughts - You know how you see Lychguard all the time for the Necrons>? Exactly

*Warlocks -*

Initial thoughts -Hmm, Flying terminators with psychic protection. Seriously though, the random powers suck ass. While LD8 may been off putting to start your overage roll on two dice is 7, you most likely won't fail your powers too much, however throw in some psy defense like Shadow of the Warp or a Rune Staff and they will most likely never get a power off. All in all I think they have a lot more potential but man...they do not have a large margin of error. They have no way to protect themselves from Perils and even on bikes they fall short.

Closing Thoughts - Man if only they didn't have to cast their powers, and the singing spear upgrade is a hefty price tag when you stat to kit out the unit, its possible they have some utility with the main BRB powers, but basically you have to get super lucky to get any useful power. Also wish you could put two warlocks in the same squad ala the Royal Court

*Farseers -*

Initial thoughts - Whhhyyyyyyyyyy

Closing thoughts - no LD re-roll, no 3d6 for powers, no psy defense, ghost helms brought low. Even with all the gifts we have been given this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Most powerful Psykers in the Galaxy? Oh you meant Chaos. While in general we are now like everyone else, it is very off putting. Fortune is no longer promised, which is weird (random powers are bad), and the new "Super sayian" power is terrible. Other than these terribly off putting things they do basically what they did before, buff other units and with a potential ML 4 they do it well(not to mention Deny the Witch for a single unit). With their high ML they might be better off rolling on the BRB powers for things like Hallucination, it IS nice that Guide/Fortune is 24 inches now, it allows them to stay behind and buff instead of being on the front lines.

*Fire Dragons -*

Initial Thoughts - More expensive, but more useful. The point increase is negligible once you factor in the reductions across the board. However insist on taking units like Wraithknights x3, then you will find yourself short on points. It's also nice they probably won't die from vehicle explosions anymore.

Closing Thoughts - The Exarch powers are Meh, fast shot is cool and all but I miss crack shot. They do turn a Krackstorm missile launcher into a barrage 2 though, which is neat. Combine with a Shas'O with a Sensor chip for the lulz.

*Guardian Defenders -*

Initial Thoughts - Y U No Cost Less! The increase in points for the stats is understandable. I would've preferred it to be a option, like +4 points for a Black Guardian ;/ I also notice that, while optional, the Support Platforms have a stat value now, I would've preferred they stay as a token, since now a bad save makes a 20+ point gun go poof.

Closing thoughts - A Warlock with conceal can make them have a 2+ cover save, which is neat. Watch out for marker lights.

*Storm Guardians -*

Initial thoughts - love the fact they can be WS 5 and Int 6 with the right power, otherwise fairly the same as before. Power weapons are really expensive for no reason, they also have Plasma Grenades for free now.

Closing Thoughts - Str 3 still kills them

*"Windrider jetbikes" -*

Initial Thoughts - Oh man, I am SO happy right now. If you couldn't tell I thought highly of jetbikes with the prior codex, they are not only cheaper but with the changes to Shuriken Weapons and their increase in stats I am incredibly happy. Combine with Conceal for a 2+ cover save just because, or a 2+ armor save with the right power. I honestly don't see why you would get any other troop choice.

Closing thoughts - They have battle focus...but cannot run?

*Dire Avengers -*

Initial thoughts - Really worth taking now, simply because of battle focus. Honestly though because Guardians also have it and are cheaper, no REAL reason to take them. The 5+ invul they get is poor compared to the 2+ cover the jetbikes can get and of course their exarch powers are meh.

Closing Thoughts - They DO get you a serpent which may or may not be worth taking depending on your setup.

*Wave Serpent -*

Initial Thoughts - More expensive............and the shield changed. I had a knee jerk reaction in seeing the energy field change, but at the same time, after thinking about it. I think its better. They will still die a terribly overcosted death in CC when they run up to drop their cargo off ( /sigh), but in terms of shooting they have amazing resiliency. Their new shield AND their amazingly cheap weapon options makes them one of the best gun tanks around,like a Pred wishes it had the energy shield instead of a front AV 13.

Closing thoughts - Don't use it to deliver troops or it will die like a B***h. Why is the "projected" field a 60' range? WHY!? It should also be noted the new shield works for a Death or Glory attack. Which basically provides complete immunity to the Death or Glory assuming you have at least two Hull points left. Hmmmm

*Vypers -*

Opening Thoughts - Better BS and MUCH cheaper weapon options, BS 4 really makes them a good option.

Closing Thoughts - Will still die to a stiff breeze and competes with Warp Spiders and Crimson Hunters, although strictly speaking, not bad. Worth taking if you have some spare points.

*Swooping Hawks -*

Initial Thoughts - Cheaper and...Better? I like the change for the grenade pack and at the same time miss the infinite range, and NO SCATTER!

Closing thoughts - Still do what they did before, and skyleap got slightly nerfed. Don't get stuck in CC.

*Wraithlords -*

Initial Thoughts - yet again another price increase, other armies must be really be jealous of our T8. Their Str also got nerfed, which i suppose is negligible since they have smash and can get a glaive. If you didn't notice they can now have up to 4 weapons. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you should. As always trade out for the Flamers, on average you will be finding yourself being 30 points more than any previous setup. if you are taking 1-2 you don't really notice due to the overall price decrease, but once you start spamming them it can get bad.

Closing Thoughts - no longer unique with their BS 4, no wraithsight is nice though and 3 attacks base makes me feel better.

*Crimson Hunter -*

Initial Thoughts - Vector Dancer

Closing Thoughts - For its fragility I would prefer a lower price point, but watch out its price can get kinda high, but with the armaments it brings I am not complaining, feels like a MBT, make sure you silence any enemy skyfire shots as it will quickly bring it down. Otherwise I am happy

*Prince Yirel -*

Initial thoughts -Is basically the same as he was before, except now he cannot handle 2+. Love the price decrease too.

Closing Thoughts - I miss his Ignoring Armor Saves and las-cannon arm. Don't roll a 6 for a save. Marines still need to stay away from him or get eaten.

*Striking Scorpions -*

Initial Thoughts - The new Striking Scorpions is like a "Folex" watch. Sure you can still tell time but it's not the Rolex you were expecting.

Closing Thoughts - We got everything we ever wanted on the Scorps...except for the Str 3 Mandiblasters...ohgodwhy.jpeg

*Shining Spears -*

Initial Thoughts - Cheaper and Better

Closing Thoughts - mostly like they were before, but better overall and now have AP 2, although outflank is weird on them.

*Support Weapon platforms -*

Initial thoughts - not a fan of the new name, Shadow Weavers are still cheap and even more effective than they used to be, Vibro Cannons are much improved IMO although they play differently now (they will still eat vehicle parking lots), and D-Cannons are Str 10. While distort weaponry has changed in general I think having a actual STR value is nice, makes missing the "improved" haywire effect not as bad.

Closing Thoughts - yup they are all still good, and each have their own merits now, too bad D-Cannons are slightly more expensive

*Night Spinners -*

Initial thoughts - Str 7 barrage, Torrent!

Closing Thoughts - Reduced range, but shouldn't matter much due to the speed of the tank, has "rending". It's basically a Warp Hunter now.

*Falcons -*

Initial thoughts - BS 4!

Closing Thoughts - Cheaper overall, might be worth taking again since Prisms can no longer link shots. With the new Holo-Fields i can see this being fielded more and more often.

*Fire Prisms -*

Initial Thoughts - can no longer link beams, not that it is needed anymore, costs more

Closing thoughts - I like the changes, the increase itself is not list breaking and it has a "more useful" firing mode now.

*Harlies -*

Initial Thoughts - I feel like GW missed a good opportunity to change this unit in the right direction

Closing Thoughts - Veil of Tears is frustrating again, Flip belts are SLIGHTLY different now. They still are the best CC options we have. Does VoT's work for Overwatch now?

*Eldrad Uthran -*

Opening Thoughts - I miss the second power of the same type, otherwise he is ALL good.

Closing thoughts - this redeploy got nerfed..or clarified? Slightly Cheaper now and still T4.

*Illic Nightspear -*

Opening Thoughts - boy he has a lot of special rules and a nice price point.

Closing Thoughts - He's okay for his price, although unless you specifically want Pathfinders a Autarch or a Farseer will be better. I knew he was going to be a new character after reading through the Necron Codex. Also free Shrouding to any unit.

*Asurmen -*

Opening Thoughts - Wow I feel embarrassed for always making fun of him, it's like the nerdy kid in school grew up and now owns a fortune 500 company.

Closing Thoughts - he's still really expensive and limited in what he can do, but he is infinity much more useful that before. Keep Multi-Wound models away from him, or he will go NOM NOM NOM.

*Jain Zair -*

Opening Thoughts - Yisss AP 2

Closing Thoughts - Slightly more expensive but totally worth it, she is a excellent CC beast now.

*Karandras -*

Opening Thoughts - MUCH more expensive, like almost a land raider now

Closing Thoughts - Now that his fist is at his INT of 7, I can see why, COMPLETLY worth it if you have the points. Kahandra's and a tricked out Mantle Autarch will wreck absolute havoc in the enemy deployment zone.

*Fuegan -*

Opening Thoughts - More expensive but also, technically, more useful. His new special rule won't save him when he gets hit with 3+ AP 2 hits.

Closing Thoughts -I wish he could still smash, but now he shoots twice with his Fusion Pike. Completely worth it if you have the points.

*Baharroth -*

Opening Thoughts - Much improved still Str 4 in CC

Closing Thoughts - Same as before but better and cheaper. Its tough to say if he will be useful, YMMV.

*Mr. Ra -*

Opening Thoughts - Battle Focus makes him so funny

Closing Thoughts - No more Crack Shot and still AP 3, watch out though, he will still kick your ass.

*The Avatar of Khaine -*

Opening Thoughts - So he costs the same as Mr. Ra now

Closing Thoughts - MUCH improved, still not sure if I would take him over a IC, but definitely worth it now if you want too.

*Autarch -*

Opening Thoughts - Same as before, basically. All his options are cheaper and he can do some really neat things (wtf can take TWO Fusion guns, he can't even shoot that many)

Closing Thoughts - Mandi Blasters got nerfed and cost more for him. SO much for my Hunter Killer Autarch setup. You can kinda tell GW was tired of people giving him Mandi-Blasters and a Laser Lance.

*Spirit Seer -*

Opening Thoughts - Neat idea two rolls on the Runes of Battle chart if you really want to, and a IC to go where you need him

Closing Thoughts - Basically only take him if you want a particular squad to have a power he rolled or you want Wraithguard as troops. Also the only way to give a Wraith Guard unit Warlock powers now.

*Rangers -*

Opening Thoughts - MUCH cheaper, but they lost their special AP 1 shots.

Closing Thoughts - worth taking at least a single squad now. Also i miss their AP 1 shot, made them unique.

*Howling Banshees -*

Opening Thoughts - Poor Banshees, someone forgot they existed

Closing Thoughts - If you want to give them grenades you need a Archon/Succubus bring along a Phantasm Grenade Launcher.

*Hemlock Wraithfighter -*

Opening Thoughts - It's a neat concept, but WAY to expensive. It can only kill infantry (yes I know distort blah blah)

Closing Thoughts - I don't see it fitting in to the average list, but for a themed one its pretty neat. I just wish it cost less as it looks pretty cool.

*Dark Reapers -*

Opening Thoughts - SnP and ignores Jink AND can get Krak on everything...lol

Closing Thoughts - Cheaper and "better" to boot. They still have the same problems/advantages as before, I miss Crack Shot.

*War Walkers *-

Opening Thoughts - The cannons are default by now hence the price increase, for the same cost of 2 SL WW from the last codex we can get any weapon now. They also have a Invul now (really shouldn't matter)

Closing Thoughts - Wow EML's with Flakk get expensive fast.

*Thoughts on current Psychic Powers :-*

*Runes of Battle -- *(Warlocks/Spirit Seers pick these)

*Conceal/Reveal -*

Opening Thoughts - it's the basic power so I hope you love it

Closing Thoughts - Its basically awesome, free Shrouded for any squad AND you can remove Stealth/Shroud from a enemy unit.

*Destructor/Renewer -*

Opening Thoughts - Destructor got better, AND Renewer gives you some seriously OP options. The power targets any "friendly" unit so things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and any IC from Tau/DE are basically unstoppable if you can keep that power going.

Closing Thoughts - Imagine 5 guys with that spell, LOL. The Avatar can take on a army now.

*Embolden/Horrify -*

Opening Thoughts - Fearless is nice, but I seriously miss the re-roll for LD tests. Horrify can have a nice 1-2 punch combo with certain units, -3 to LD can be game breaking.

Closing Thoughts - Pretty straightforward powers, you will be using Horrify more often.

*Enhance/Drain -*

Opening Thoughts - Enhance did it what it did before, except now you can put it anywhere you can stick a Spirit Seer, Drain is interesting, the debuff it gives enemy units isn't all that much but it can turn a 3+ into a 4+.

Closing Thoughts - Kind of meh, other powers are more useful.

*Protect/Jinx -*

Opening Thoughts - Omg omg omg this has a LOT of useful applications. +1 to armor saves? So my seer council are now Flying Terminators? Jinx also has the ability to REALLY piss someone off, -1 to armor saves? Yea, Marines with a 4+, they are going to HATE that.

Closing Thoughts - I'll take 10!

*Quicken/Restrain -*

Opening Thoughts -Blessing is kind of meh +3 run speed

Closing Thoughts - Malediction can be tactically useful, no running for a enemy unit can keep them off a objective.

*Empower/Enervate -*

Opening Thoughts -+1 Str for Empower...Meh can be useful, especially when combines with the Dark Eldar.

Closing Thoughts - 1 Str has some tactical advantages, but won't be used much.

*Runes of Fate --* (Farseers pick these)

*Guide -*

Opening Thoughts - Same as before, except now is a 24 inch range, can also affect non-Eldar units.

Closing Thoughts - It's the default power, but since everyone is BS 4 or better now, its usefulness has gone down.

*Executioner -*

Opening Thoughts - So...if you are lucky you can kill three models..also doesn't have a AP value.

Closing Thoughts - Who made this power? It's terrible

*Doom -*

Opening Thoughts - AH good old Doom, and it can now affect vehicles for re-rolls for Pen!

Closing Thoughts - Its Better! Take it! (works on flyers)

*Eldritch Storm -*

Opening Thoughts - is actually worth using now, however what made it "it", is gone. it no longer spins

Closing Thoughts - Its good , but not 2 warp charges good :/

*Death Mission - *

Opening Thoughts - Ewww

Closing Thoughts - This is a terrible power, please don't take it.

*Fortune -*

Opening Thoughts - Yup that's worth 2 warp charges

Closing Thoughts - It now lets you re-roll Deny the Witch, AND it works on ANY friendly Unit! Go Go Dark Eldrad Grotesque super unit.

*Mind War -*

Opening Thoughts - No Mr Kelly. that is not worth two Warp Charges

Closing Thoughts - Technically better and ignores cover saves. Don't roll low or you gimp your Farseer.

*Remnants of Glory -* (We now have a "special wargear section" similar to the Chaos Gifts, Farssers/Spirit Seers/Autarchs can take them)

*Shard of Anaris -* Ok so this is priced fairly and gives the model some really nice abilities. Since it has Flash Bane AND instadeath it can really mess up enemy MC's. No AP but that's what rending is for.

Closing Thoughts - Seems like it can get the bearer killed by going into a fight he normally wouldn't go in. I guess Combined with Death Mission and Mantle of the Laughing God you can make a nice Super Farseer...maybe.

*Fire Saber -*

Opening Thoughts - This gives some really nice abilities and can be dangerous on a Autarch

Closing Thoughts - Costs a LOT

*The Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan -*

Opening Thoughts - Bringing down the cost of a power by 1 warp charge is very nice. most of the time it won't do much but if you have 2 powers with 2 warp charges this will let you cast both. It also works EACH time so I can see it being brought a lot, however you can only ever take one of these.

Closing Thoughts - The downside of no invul saves is negligible,

*Uldanoeth Long Rifle -*

Opening Thoughts - wow 120' range

Closing Thoughts - a AP 3 sniper

*Mantle of the Laughing God -*

Opening Thoughts - This has some potential for a real backfield terror, losing IC isn't even a problem in that situation. 

Closing Thoughts - Lol you can give it to Autarch and put him on a bike. 2+ Cover saves all the time with re-rolls. The model loses the IC status but that doesn't prevent another IC form joining him.

*Faolchu's WIng -*

Opening Thoughts - Ehhhh a 48' run move? kind of useful

Closing Thoughts - Its high cost takes away my enthusiasm

*The Phoenix Gem -*

Opening Thoughts - Ooooo a Free Resurrection for a IC.

Closing Thoughts - And its cheaply priced too!

*Thoughts on Vehicle Equipment :-*

*Ghost Walk mantle - *

Opening Thoughts - Okay, Move through cover for our skimmers...so what you really mean is Move Through Cover for our War Walkers.

Closing Thoughts - Since every member in a squad has to take it, it gets expensive fast. War Walkers have the potential to cost nearly 600 points for one unit of three if you give them all the upgrades /shudder.

*Spirit Stones -*

Opening Thoughts - Yea I saw that coming

Closing Thoughts - So it works like Living Metal Now, I guess

*Holo-Fields -*

Opening Thoughts - So Disruption pods for the Eldar

Closing Thoughts - priced right, take it if you want your tank to live, kind of miss the old one though, made us unique.

*Star Engines -*

Opening Thoughts - A extra 6' move is nice

Closing Thoughts - Not for the points cost

*Vectored Engines -*

Opening Thoughts -.........................................really?

Closing Thoughts - Did the Eldar ever have problems with positioning with all of our Fast Skimmer and turreted Weapons??

*Crystal Targeting Matrix -*

Opening Thoughts - I got all giddy when i saw we got this back, the ability it grants is nice even for a one time use.

Closing Thoughts - Then I saw the points cost and nearly had a heart attack..../cry

*Thoughts on current Fortifications :-*

*Fortress -* Still useful for a variety of units, Wraithknights love it especially. A good place drop units out of LOS from reserve so the Tau don't eat you alive with Interceptor. Basic Rangers really like the 2+ cover save from the battlements

*Bastion -* Still useful, a good way to bring LOS blocking terrain for cheap, nice place to hide a Weapons Platform

*Landing Pad -* Wraithknights love this, although most of the other units that can sit back and shoot have access to good cover saves already. Good place to park some tanks

*Aegis Defense Line -* With cheap accurate ranged options you won't need this as much, combine the COMM relay with a Autarch to some good Reserve shenanigans. Of course Dark Reapers manning a Cannon or Quad Gun are dangerous to all flyers now.

*Warlord Traits -*

*Ambush of Blades -*

Opening Thoughts - Its KIND OF useful, but for a one use only ability its terrible. 
Closing Thoughts - Roll on the BRB traits

*An Eye on Distant Events -*
Opening Thoughts - Tactically useful
Closing Thoughts - one use only makes me cry

*Falcon's Swiftness -*
Opening Thoughts - This is terrible, +1 Run move?
Closing Thoughts - Roll in the BRB

*Fate's Messenger -*
Opening Thoughts - This is useful, especially for a phoenix Lord.
Closing Thoughts - Rendered moot if you have Fortune.

*Mark of the Incomparable Hunter -*
Opening Thoughts - Split Fire is neat
Closing Thoughts - Not for a Warlord Trait

*Seer of the Shifting Vector -*
Opening Thoughts - Eldar doesn't really deepstrike that often so having a free "beacon" is kinda 50/50.
Closing Thoughts - Tau Interceptor haunt my dreams


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks for this; you are actually an Eldar, aren’t you…lol

I read most everything in your post, but then stopped because I wanted a few surprises next week lol

It seems to me that you think the new book if better than the old, and that the Eldar will be better now which is awesome! 

Even some of the bad you had to say was dealt mostly with some of the new Units not living up to the hype, but still there are options we didn’t have before right!
I know you think the Warlord traits might not be that good, but I think they will prove to be better than your first impressions. Hey, even the +1 to the run move, I’m sure we all had that game where the 1” extra would have gotten us that objective… hell it happened in a recent game 3.5” from the objective after my run lol… because so far I had nothing even slight useful from the BRB (except one time I got the one that gave you and extra vp for killing a charter in a challenge lol) 

As for the Physic Powers… I knew that random generation was going to suck and make it harder to base you strategy around your PP as before (guide/doom/fortune). Now we will just have to think on our feet a little more! Either way, soon all armies will be in this same boat, GW didn’t bring this “new” aspect into the game and make a bunch of new products to support it (PP Cards, etc..) just to have us Elder players basically auto stopping it all.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

troybuckle said:


> Thanks for this; you are actually an the Eldar, aren’t you…lol
> 
> I read most everything in your post, but then stopped because I wanted a few surprises next week lol
> 
> ...


You bring up some excellent and insightful points, at the end of the day I am very giddy over everything. I look forward to my future games. +Rep


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

troybuckle said:


> I know you think the Warlord traits might not be that good, but I think they will prove to be better than your first impressions. Hey, even the +1 to the run move, I’m sure we all had that game where the 1” extra would have gotten us that objective… hell it happened in a recent game 3.5” from the objective after my run lol… because so far I had nothing even slight useful from the BRB (except one time I got the one that gave you and extra vp for killing a charter in a challenge lol)


Yeah I've seen usefulish looking traits in the BRB but rarely generate them but to me most of the Codex's haven't been terribly game breaking. Between DA and Chaos anyway I only really hope for one or two traits from either book. Only problem I have with them is that 1 inch is silly, so silly I might forget I rolled it and then actually find a use for it.

There are a few things that have made me sad, but most of it as Ragewind points out is because some of us only make a use a couple configurations for everything. Not entirely sure all of it's worth the kick in the teeth but I find considering options something I didn't do as much so maybe that's a good thing.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Bumping this to General 40k because it's not really news or rumours. Nice bit of detailed insight and I think it'll get more discussion there to boot.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

A few minor thoughts:
Mind War is absolutely worth 2 charges, but you have to pick the right target. Especially if comboed with Horrify, it can kill or cripple even the toughest MC. BS 1 Riptides are not happy things.
Falcon's Swiftness is basically there for Jain Zar, since it stacks with Acrobatic to give her and her Banshees +4" Run movement. Likewise Incomparable Hunter makes Maugan Ra more flexible, but can be very useful on a shooty Autarch.
Ghostwalk- Move Through Cover lets you ignore Dangerous Terrain, so Skimmers can take it and safely park in a forest or ruin. Potentially very handy.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Majere613 said:


> A few minor thoughts:
> Mind War is absolutely worth 2 charges, but you have to pick the right target. Especially if comboed with Horrify, it can kill or cripple even the toughest MC. BS 1 Riptides are not happy things.
> Falcon's Swiftness is basically there for Jain Zar, since it stacks with Acrobatic to give her and her Banshees +4" Run movement. Likewise Incomparable Hunter makes Maugan Ra more flexible, but can be very useful on a shooty Autarch.
> Ghostwalk- Move Through Cover lets you ignore Dangerous Terrain, so Skimmers can take it and safely park in a forest or ruin. Potentially very handy.


Yes I noticed the run for Jain but i was thinking more from other HQ's perspective. 

As for mind war I would disagree, simply because of the BrB power of Psychic Shriek, its 1 warp charge and can do up to 8 wounds to a LD 10 model (assuming you didn't lower the LD), whereas Mind War can do a max of 5 if you roll a 6 and they roll a 1.
There is also a psychological aspect to rolling dice and dealing 8 wounds as opposed to letting your opponent try and stop you.
Not to mention you can always grab Psy Shriek with no randomness involved.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Ragewind said:


> Yes I noticed the run for Jain but i was thinking more from other HQ's perspective.
> 
> As for mind war I would disagree, simply because of the BrB power of Psychic Shriek, its 1 warp charge and can do up to 8 wounds to a LD 10 model (assuming you didn't lower the LD), whereas Mind War can do a max of 5 if you roll a 6 and they roll a 1.
> There is also a psychological aspect to rolling dice and dealing 8 wounds as opposed to letting your opponent try and stop you.
> Not to mention you can always grab Psy Shriek with no randomness involved.


The comparison with Shriek actually shows why Mind War is a 2 Charge power quite nicely. Mind War has twice the range of Shriek and doubles as a debuff as well. As a Focused power, it can snipe with a good roll (2 tries, one on the LD test and one on the 'to hit' roll) and ignores LD boosts from leaders because it goes on the target model. 
Of course, it's not as good for hitting units, but since you've got at least Mastery 3 and you can also have Telepathy, why not take both


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a question: Do DA still have the ability to take an extra shot (Old Bladestorm), if not has it been replaced with a new ability?


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Majere613 said:


> The comparison with Shriek actually shows why Mind War is a 2 Charge power quite nicely. Mind War has twice the range of Shriek and doubles as a debuff as well. As a Focused power, it can snipe with a good roll (2 tries, one on the LD test and one on the 'to hit' roll) and ignores LD boosts from leaders because it goes on the target model.
> Of course, it's not as good for hitting units,* but since you've got at least Mastery 3 and you can also have Telepathy, why not take both *


That is a absolutely diabolical idea! Working in tandem really makes for a powerhouse combo. +rep
:goodpost:



> I have a question: Do DA still have the ability to take an extra shot (Old Bladestorm), if not has it been replaced with a new ability?


They do not :ireful2:

Also I just noticed your from St. John's Newfoundland Canada, I was actually there not even 5 months ago. Very nice weather and friendly people.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

troybuckle said:


> I have a question: Do DA still have the ability to take an extra shot (Old Bladestorm), if not has it been replaced with a new ability?


Bladestorm is now a rule all Shuriken Weapons have. It is essentially Rending, but it doesn't work on vehicles.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well I got to say I was surprised the wraith knight wasn't some overpowered monster. Still to rail gun style weapons is nothing to sneeze at.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Ragewind said:


> T
> 
> 
> They do not :ireful2:
> ...


It's to bad they lost that power that was a fun/useful/fluffy rule.

Good o'l St. John's,... we recently moved from there however, now we are in Happy Valley Goose Bay Labrador... much higher north in the province, work brought us here.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

troybuckle said:


> It's to bad they lost that power that was a fun/useful/fluffy rule.
> 
> Good o'l St. John's,... we recently moved from there however, now we are in Happy Valley Goose Bay Labrador... much higher north in the province, work brought us here.


In terms of shooting marines the "new" bladestorm will kill double the marines, of course it loses power on the large blobs, but for most purposes its fine.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Disappointingly I don't think the Wraithknight is playable at all. For the cost of a Land Raider you're getting a 3+ sv MC that's impossibly to hide and only throws out 2 S10 shots per turn. The Ghostglaive is a waste of a weapon and Twin linking the Suncannon takes you up to 300pts - and you still die to two volleys of Krak Missiles because you don't have Battle Focus to avoid retaliatory firepower. Compared to the Riptide it's simply worse in every way and disappointingly vanilla in it's options and flavour. It needed either a 2+, a 3++, or some kind of cool special rule to keep it alive. Decent guns would also have helped. As it is, for 30pts less, you can put out 24 S6 shots (half of them twin linked) on Walkers that can effectively JSJ behind buildings, with a built in 5++ just in case they need it.

You don't seem to rate the Crimson Hunter much, but I predict it'll be almost the only thing you see in tournament lists FA slots because our book has no viable Skyfire. None. Not a single unit. That means our only answer to Flyers are our own Flyers, and 4 S8 AP2 Vector Dancer shots is a pretty damn good answer, even at the 160pt mark. Of course if your local group doesn't play with flier heavy armies then you can utilize the much improved Spiders instead.

I also think you're underselling Serpents - the only fast skimmer transport in the game that averages 11 shots at S6/7 for 130pts. _As a firepower unit that's more cost effective than most of our heavy support section._

The rest of your post I agree with, for the most part. I too am slightly disappointed in the lack of unique options, and have a sinking feeling that the internal balance of this book is just as bad as the last one, just with different units.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sethis said:


> Disappointingly I don't think the Wraithknight is playable at all. For the cost of a Land Raider you're getting a 3+ sv MC that's impossibly to hide and only throws out 2 S10 shots per turn. The Ghostglaive is a waste of a weapon and Twin linking the Suncannon takes you up to 300pts - and you still die to two volleys of Krak Missiles because you don't have Battle Focus to avoid retaliatory firepower. Compared to the Riptide it's simply worse in every way and disappointingly vanilla in it's options and flavour. It needed either a 2+, a 3++, or some kind of cool special rule to keep it alive. Decent guns would also have helped. As it is, for 30pts less, you can put out 24 S6 shots (half of them twin linked) on Walkers that can effectively JSJ behind buildings, with a built in 5++ just in case they need it.


Talking to one of the guys who plays Grey Knights he feels that the Wraithknight is a much better option for what it brings because it has a better statline, better starting firepower and is a Jump MC for cheaper than the Dreadknight does it for a similar sort of load out. The only switch is that the Dreadknight has a built in invulnerable save. So some people seem to like it.

As for it's cost, honestly for your average army to take it down, they'll be forced to direct anti-tank at it. Doing so means that they aren't directing it at anything else in your army, and if you too the Suncannon/Scattershield with a Scatter Laser you've got the ability to Twin-link your 3 Blast Templates while acting as a fast moving target. It's threatening, durable, fast and distracts from the rest of the army fairly effectively. Call me a bit too positive, but I think they balanced points to effective utility rather well on this thing. It's not an auto-include but it's not bad either.

Additionally I wouldn't compare it to the Riptide. The Riptide is an Elite mobile gun platform, this is a big scary stompy thing that will make players nervous. I also wouldn't take 2 (1 and a unit of Walkers who have Scatter Lasers, EML and the Flakk Missiles would easilly be my first two heavy Slots) in most games, but 1 will definitely keep the heat off of things. And if you get "Big Guns Never Tire" you have potentially one of the hardest to shift objective holders in the game (easy to tie up mind you, just hard to shift).



Sethis said:


> You don't seem to rate the Crimson Hunter much, but I predict it'll be almost the only thing you see in tournament lists FA slots because our book has no viable Skyfire. None. Not a single unit. That means our only answer to Flyers are our own Flyers, and 4 S8 AP2 Vector Dancer shots is a pretty damn good answer, even at the 160pt mark. Of course if your local group doesn't play with flier heavy armies then you can utilize the much improved Spiders instead.


So Walkers with an EML with Flakk Missiles, Starlight Engines and Scatterlasers doesn't do it for you? Sure they aren't cheap, but they have Battle Focus which gives them a LOT of range to get about the board, get good lines of sight and use the volume of Scatter Laser shots to twin-link the EMLs.



Sethis said:


> I also think you're underselling Serpents - the only fast skimmer transport in the game that averages 11 shots at S6/7 for 130pts. _As a firepower unit that's more cost effective than most of our heavy support section._


I agree that Serpents are frikkin' awesome. I don't know how many we'll honestly see on the board though. I guess it'll depend on the kind of list you're trying to play to be honest.



Sethis said:


> The rest of your post I agree with, for the most part. I too am slightly disappointed in the lack of unique options, and have a sinking feeling that the internal balance of this book is just as bad as the last one, just with different units.


I feel the internal balance is actually pretty high. There are a lot of good choices vying for spots in a lot of positions, and most of the stuff feels pretty well pointed.

My only disappointment is the lack of grenades for Banshees.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

I think Zion hit it on the head about the wraithknight, like I said in my post its a little too early to really tell. I will need to run through a number of lists vs various armies before I can really talk about it with experience. I do know my Space Wolf friend is already upset that he cannot Jaw's it effectively.

As for the serpent, it does make a better MBT than our MBT. However the majority of the units the codex is pushing forth won't need/can't use the Serpent at all. Basically it feels like we are playing third edition again where all armor is optional and big blobs can win you games.

As for the grenades, they DO have "pretend" grenades. Even if they assault into cover a -5 to INT will make the MAJORITY of models INT 1 as well. So they at least all fight at initiative step 1. 

Like I mentioned, allied Dark Eldar can really make them work in terms of grenades.

Edit:


> So Walkers with an EML with Flakk Missiles, Starlight Engines and Scatterlasers doesn't do it for you?


Yea don't do that, that is like almost the cost of two Crimson Hunters.

Edit 2:
Whooo 777 posts! Only took me 5 years to do it! :grin:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> I do know my Space Wolf friend is already upset that_ he cannot Jaw's it effectively._


Why is that ?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm loving the information you gave us. Thank you. One minor thing though, that you missed, for the Ghostwalk Mantle. Move Through Cover grants the ability to ignore Dangerous Terrain. So, yes, put that on a Skimmer and land wherever the f$%# you want. Except on top of enemy models of course.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Zion said:


> Talking to one of the guys who plays Grey Knights he feels that the Wraithknight is a much better option for what it brings because it has a better statline, better starting firepower and is a Jump MC for cheaper than the Dreadknight does it for a similar sort of load out. The only switch is that the Dreadknight has a built in invulnerable save. So some people seem to like it.
> 
> As for it's cost, honestly for your average army to take it down, they'll be forced to direct anti-tank at it. Doing so means that they aren't directing it at anything else in your army, and if you too the Suncannon/Scattershield with a Scatter Laser you've got the ability to Twin-link your 3 Blast Templates while acting as a fast moving target. It's threatening, durable, fast and distracts from the rest of the army fairly effectively. Call me a bit too positive, but I think they balanced points to effective utility rather well on this thing. It's not an auto-include but it's not bad either.


In the spirit of friendly debate (i.e. I'm not having a go at you! :laugh I'll counter that with:

- Dreadknights are far cheaper without the teleport pack, and so have the option of being spammed, causing target priority issues for the opponent. 

- A built in 5++ is exactly what you need when you're too tall to hide and every weapon aimed at you is AP3 or better. Dreadknight also has a native 2+, which is extremely significant.

- The TL suncannon option is 300pts. For that price tag you could buy a unit of scatter walkers and a Farseer, which will average a *lot* more kills against anything with a cover save.

- I agree that it's threatening and a distraction, but that doesn't make it good. A decent player will quickly realize that two S10 shots simply isn't worth the time spent trying to drop it, and will ignore it until he's taken our real firepower units out.



Zion said:


> Additionally I wouldn't compare it to the Riptide. The Riptide is an Elite mobile gun platform, this is a big scary stompy thing that will make players nervous. I also wouldn't take 2 (1 and a unit of Walkers who have Scatter Lasers, EML and the Flakk Missiles would easilly be my first two heavy Slots) in most games, but 1 will definitely keep the heat off of things. And if you get "Big Guns Never Tire" you have potentially one of the hardest to shift objective holders in the game (easy to tie up mind you, just hard to shift).


- I'd say they serve a pretty identical purpose. That of tough anchor unit with respectable firepower. Both are mobile - JSJ being better than Jump MC for that purpose in my mind. Both are MCs in combat, but aren't very good at it. Both are firepower magnets. At the end of the day the Riptide simply has better rules (power generator), save (2+), and guns.

- Flakk Walkers? 110pts per AV10 HP2 two-shot platform? A squadron of them for 330pts? Without Interceptor? I really wouldn't. Against Necron Air they wouldn't even get to shoot.



Zion said:


> I feel the internal balance is actually pretty high. There are a lot of good choices vying for spots in a lot of positions, and most of the stuff feels pretty well pointed.


I'm not sure.

HQ - Still Farseers and Autarchs are the only real points-efficient choices, with the Avatar being a distant third.

Elites - Our melee units are still pretty jank, being either too fragile or too slow, leaving Dragons the kings of the hill - although you no longer need three units because lances are cheaper and BS4.

Troops - Unchanged. Guardians still too expensive for 12" range guns, Stormies got a nice shift up with BS4 melta, but still crap in actual combat. Avengers do torrent reasonably well in a Serpent, Rangers snipe, and Jetbikes take objectives. They're all slightly better than they were, but internally I don't think the hierarchy has changed with the only wildcard being scoring small units of Wraithguard. Time will tell on that one.

FA - our only AA option and therefore our only option if you routinely play against armies with 4+ flyers. If you don't, probably a pair of hunters and a unit of spiders for that Assault 2 Deep Strike Autocannon goodness.

HS - Probably the most flexible slot. I'll be going for 2x Scatter walker squadrons and 1x Prism for the time being, but there are a few other good options.

As an example list, this is what I've been toying with for fun:

Autarch w/ Mantle, Jetbike, Fusion
10 Avengers w/ Scatter and Chin Serpent
10 Avengers w/ Scatter and Chin Serpent
5 Avengers w/ Scatter and Chin Serpent
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
3 Scattter Walkers
3 Scattter Walkers
3 Scattter Walkers
1800pts

Keep everything but the Serpents off the board if you don't have first turn, then alpha strike like a motherfucker when you arrive on a 2+ turn 2 with over 100 S6/7 shots, half of them twin linked, and 8 S8s at BS4. Avengers mop up, Autarch goes tank/walker hunting.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Dark Reapers actually provide an interesting AA option. The Exarch can take Flakk, Fast Shot, and ignores Jink saves so that's 2 S7 shots at BS 5, or if you prefer he can man a Quad Gun- or maybe even an Icarus. I know there's been some pretty solid math done that shows the Quad Gun beats the Icarus for AA, but I'm not sure how the extra shot and ignoring Jink might alter that.
I've been toying with a unit of Reapers behind an Aegis with a Spiritseer for Conceal, which brings up an interesting question- is it better to take the Flakk option for the Exarch and have the Seer man the Quad Gun? Of course the Exarch is more likely to make the kill, but having the Seer do it means you get two bites at the cherry, and ironically the Exarch ignoring Jinks means he can't _make_ the target Jink, which you might well want to do!


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## jwillyeo (Jun 1, 2013)

*Eldrad and Fuegan*

With the spiritlink power that eldrad now has can he still cast 2 of the same power in a turn? or carry on casting all powers if he regains a warp point? (obviously not 2 shooting) and am I right in thinking you attatch your remnants to your warlord? so basically I could make fuegan strength 6 instant death on 2+ with shard of anaris?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

jwillyeo said:


> With the spiritlink power that eldrad now has can he still cast 2 of the same power in a turn? or carry on casting all powers if he regains a warp point? (obviously not 2 shooting) and am I right in thinking you attatch your remnants to your warlord? so basically I could make fuegan strength 6 instant death on 2+ with shard of anaris?


You can't buy wargear for special characters, and Eldrad cannot cast the same power twice.

Regarding Reapers as AA - the problem is that you're then wasting 60pts worth of Reapers every time you shoot a flier since the Exarch doesn't have split fire. If you trick him out then he's also a 70pt T3 W1 model in a unit of 3 bodies and therefore going to die to a stiff breeze. I'd much rather be using Farseers on Quad guns who benefit the army with psychic powers, have an invul, and 3W along with LoS! rolls to keep them alive.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

> Why is that ?


He is INT 5, so only failing on a 6 basically. Whereas the Riptide is INT 2, and a Dreadknight is INT 4.



> One minor thing though, that you missed, for the Ghostwalk Mantle. Move Through Cover grants the ability to ignore Dangerous Terrain. So, yes, put that on a Skimmer and land wherever the f$%# you want. Except on top of enemy models of course.


I was coming more from the perspective that as a fast skimmer, you shouldn't be parking in area terrain that much. On a average go you'll be completely bypassing it. Of course people do land in DT, I do it myself, but the cost to put it on each and every skimmer you might take is not worth it IMO, YMMV.



> Regarding Reapers as AA - the problem is that you're then wasting 60pts worth of Reapers every time you shoot a flier since the Exarch doesn't have split fire. If you trick him out then he's also a 70pt T3 W1 model in a unit of 3 bodies and therefore going to die to a stiff breeze. I'd much rather be using Farseers on Quad guns who benefit the army with psychic powers, have an invul, and 3W along with LoS! rolls to keep them alive.


Regardless of any prior math I'm not sold on a Quad gun, although as Majere613 pointed out "taking two bites of the cherry" seems reliable. You will always have that situation where the other 2 Dark Reapers won't be able to fire, since we can go nothing about that they basically turn the Exarch into a W3 model. However some Fast shot love on a Krakstorm Missile Launcher, no, THAT is where the fun is.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

I have to disagree with people saying that the Wraithnight can be ignored for a turn or two until our other threats are dealt with. 2 S10 shots can not be ignored, because it will penetrate all Armour, insta-kill thous pesky obliterates (with nurgle), etc. So by ignoring it for two turns will result in bad news for your opponent. However it will have to be fortune at all times, re-rolling that 5+ will help a lot (Also, isn't there a new PP that can move this up to a 4+). 

The biggest problem you will see with this, is it getting bogged down in combat, someone will send some Nurgelings (or whatever) at it's TOES and lock it up all game.

Perhaps if you run it up the board, with a unit of HB with an attach Farseer behind it, will help it big time. Remember, Eldar have to work together, i think a lot of people are looking at this unit as standing alone... Start looking at how you can buff it, or support it, then you may see ways it will be deadly. 

Remember if your opponent is shooting at it, then they are not shooting at something else like your walkers or WS, (or split firing, which will result in not taking out either unit most likely)


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

troybuckle said:


> The biggest problem you will see with this, is it getting bogged down in combat, someone will send some Nurgelings (or whatever) at it's TOES and lock it up all game.


This is where nearby CC troops such as a unit of Storm Guard or Banshees comes in handy. Your Wraithknight should not really be getting bogged down in CC without some nearby support.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> I was coming more from the perspective that as a fast skimmer, you shouldn't be parking in area terrain that much. On a average go you'll be completely bypassing it. Of course people do land in DT, I do it myself, but the cost to put it on each and every skimmer you might take is not worth it IMO, YMMV.


Well. You wouldn't put it on everything. But for ones that you may not want to move much. You could park them in a forest and not rely on Jink. Especially since things like Hydras can ignore Jink but not standard cover. I just wanted to throw it in as an option. I don't have the codex yet, so points elude me. 

As for the Reaper Exarch with Skyfire, I do have a suggestion. Let one of the other squad members fire the Quadgun/Lascannon. So you get the gun emplacement and Exarch shots at the Flyer/FMC. It does still leave some shots unused but not as many. And let's not forget that you could get those lucky 6s.


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## Cougar (Feb 28, 2012)

i do like the way GW run out of name for stuff 
Vanguard Obyron's (necron) ghostwalk mantle and our new ghostwalk matrix for our vehicles :laugh:


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> You don't seem to rate the Crimson Hunter much, but I predict it'll be almost the only thing you see in tournament lists FA slots because our book has no viable Skyfire. None. Not a single unit.


Just had a game with three of them, and I am of the opinion you are able to delve into the skeins of time.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

My one and only thought on the new Eldar went a little something like this:

"ewww finecast Warp Spiders, deal broken"


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## Cougar (Feb 28, 2012)

at least we can now have 2 Avatars...... its flagged as being 1 per detachments now.  so my 2000pts+ 2nd detachment is going to be a little different


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## Cougar (Feb 28, 2012)

its only been out 3 days and there's an update !!!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

Cougar said:


> its only been out 3 days and there's an update !!!
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3250082a_Eldar_v1.0_June13.pdf


That was released before the codex was...


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## Cougar (Feb 28, 2012)

Biellann said:


> That was released before the codex was...


lol they knew it was wrong before it was launched..... i like the extra blank pages for you to add your own amendments


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Anybody else there isn't any rules for how the weapons platform works for Guardian Defenders?


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

DeathKlokk said:


> Anybody else there isn't any rules for how the weapons platform works for Guardian Defenders?


Are you referring to how the small gun platforms have two guardians free standing and can depending on angles can be hit before the platform OR if the platform is gone you have two guardians as a single squad. Where the large gun battery has two guardians sitting on the vehicle and if the machine is shot down do they die OR do you need to have two guardians (the crew) to place around the rubble and become their own unit?

or are you referring to something entirely different?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

DeathKlokk said:


> Anybody else there isn't any rules for how the weapons platform works for Guardian Defenders?


They're relentless infantry models that are fired by a Guardian in base contact with them (who fires it instead of his Shuriken weapon). Because they aren't excluded from Battle Focus like the Vaul Weapon Platforms are it seems that they might be able to run and shoot with the squad.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

@Majere613

Sorry mate, Not sure how no one else pointed it out, but it seems we cannot fire Psychic Shriek AND Mind War, since ya know...two it counts as shooting two weapons. After a game with some of the Vypers I'm really like it. They basically function as Raiders and Venoms now.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Ragewind said:


> @Majere613
> 
> Sorry mate, Not sure how no one else pointed it out, but it seems we cannot fire Psychic Shriek AND Mind War, since ya know...two it counts as shooting two weapons. After a game with some of the Vypers I'm really like it. They basically function as Raiders and Venoms now.


That's certainly true, but with both, you've got the benefit of Mind War's range and debuff, and Screams lower cost and ability to kill multiple models. Or, of course, you could use two Farseers in a Jetbike Council o'Doom...


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Zion said:


> They're relentless infantry models that are fired by a Guardian in base contact with them (who fires it instead of his Shuriken weapon). Because they aren't excluded from Battle Focus like the Vaul Weapon Platforms are it seems that they might be able to run and shoot with the squad.


The platform doesn't actually have its own profile- it can't be killed unless the unit is destroyed (p. 66). It does count towards transport capacity and adds a wound to combat res if the squad is wiped (only relevant in a multiple combat).
You can use Battle Focus with it because the model and the firing Guardian are Relentless. (p.25)


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

Majere613 said:


> The platform doesn't actually have its own profile- it can't be killed unless the unit is destroyed (p. 66). It does count towards transport capacity and adds a wound to combat res if the squad is wiped (only relevant in a multiple combat).
> You can use Battle Focus with it because the model and the firing Guardian are Relentless. (p.25)


why is there a profile listed with the guardians, giving the platform a toughness & saving throw then? Pg40


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

A question about Nightspear: Is he an Independent Character or just a Character? 

Because as of now, assuming the rumors were true (I don't have the book), he seems broken with his infiltrate rule if he can do it with a unit, such as Wraithguard.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

The Sturk said:


> A question about Nightspear: Is he an Independent Character or just a Character?
> 
> Because as of now, assuming the rumors were true (I don't have the book), he seems broken with his infiltrate rule if he can do it with a unit, such as Wraithguard.


An IC, but there is a lot of debate about his ability to bring another unit in who can't already Infiltrate because of when it happens (after you deploy models). I expect this one in the next FAQ.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

I would hope not. This is essentially a pre-game deep strike with no scatter or risk of any kind beyond an Initiative Seize. With the right unit attached, it can nearly guarantee that a unit is wiped out before his/her opponent can do anything about it.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

The Sturk said:


> I would hope not. This is essentially a pre-game deep strike with no scatter or risk of any kind beyond an Initiative Seize. With the right unit attached, it can nearly guarantee that a unit is wiped out before his/her opponent can do anything about it.


You say that like its a bad thing! :smoke:


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

I can't say I'm looking forward to facing power gamers who throw 5+ T6, AP2 flamers in my face on turn 1.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

The Sturk said:


> I can't say I'm looking forward to facing power gamers who throw 5+ T6, AP2 flamers in my face on turn 1.


Well look at it this way, first off JUST the Wraithguard with the Flamers are almost 450 points just by themselves AND just being in a Transport will stop that strategy dead in its tracks. (or you can ring a disposable unit around the one you want to protect)


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

the_barwn said:


> why is there a profile listed with the guardians, giving the platform a toughness & saving throw then? Pg40


Whoops, good catch! Seems it can be killed- it just can't take a Look Out Sir wound, presumably because it can't jump in the way


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Also there is no melee threat in that unit. Charge it with Tac Marines or whatever and watch them spend three turns locked up.

However Karandras with his 5 S8 I7 AP2 attacks lets them infiltrate just fine, and cuts apart almost anything in melee.


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## Zerodyme619 (Jul 1, 2011)

Sethis said:


> Also there is no melee threat in that unit. Charge it with Tac Marines or whatever and watch them spend three turns locked up.
> 
> However Karandras with his 5 S8 I7 AP2 attacks lets them infiltrate just fine, and cuts apart almost anything in melee.


Yeah, but if they have their "flamers", they get their automatic wall of death hits during Overwatch. That could seriously ruin the day of any charging marines....
I don't think, they are overpowered or anything, I'm just sayin' :wink:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well on the bright side a 40pt CSM rhino would stop said fears fairly effectively.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Well on the bright side a 40pt CSM rhino would stop said fears fairly effectively.


Preach It!


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## Platton725 (Apr 19, 2010)

I've been playing Eldar for some 18 odd years, starting with the glorious second edition book, where we were the ultimate in cheese.

Recently, I've bought a Warmachine army and the rules, and started reading up, and it's been quite an eye-opener.

GW has wasted an opportunity with 6th edition, and royally fucked up.

I actually like most of the Eldar book, sure, there could have been a proper AA tank in the actual book, but I'm sure that Forgeworld will give us some kind of AA mounts (perhaps one SL and one PL based), and the Crimson Hunter will kill flyers most excellently.

They've balanced up a lot of things, Guardians should perhaps have kept I4 and been BS/WS 4 respectively for each troop type for a 1-point drop, but overall most things look good (Banshees don't).

However, I cannot reconcile with GWs notion that random is good. Don't get me wrong, actual in-game random stuff like charges, hitting, wounding, that's quite fine. It's part of wargaming. It's the "my army can be ~50% better if I get the right rolls on a table" random stuff that I'm talking about, i.e. warlord traits and psychic powers. Random generation of these means that I will pay X points for a model, which will perform radically different each time. The model might be worth X points even if I get the worst possible rolls, which means that it might be woefully overpowered many time, or it might only be worth X points if I get the best possible rolls, which will make it woefully underpowered.

This is really bad design. After trying out a few different game systems and mulling it over, not having a predictable army that you can rely on is ridiculous. Rolling psychic powers is as stupid as rolling D3+3 for your SM captains WS & BS would be.

So, my impression would be:

Load up on High S shooting and skip psykers altogether if you want an army which you can rely on and learn to use well in all situations. Heavy shooting (with an emphasis on S6+) with a countercharge detachment of an Avatar + Wraithblades with axes would be my choice of weapon.

Also, the Laser Lock rule is quite nice for both S6 Vypers (SL+SC hull mounted) and for Starcannons, and Karandras strikes at I7 with his fist (and the SS exarch has the same amount of Pfist attacks with S6 (+1 if you wanna) at I6.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Ragewind said:


> Preach It!


An AP:2 Flamer that auto-penetrates on a roll of 6 is somehow bothered by a Rhino? I don't think so. Especially since the transport probably blew the Rhino away before the D-flamers opened up. The 450 point unit cost is mostly what's going to limit their utility.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Platton725 said:


> Load up on High S shooting and skip psykers altogether if you want an army which you can rely on and learn to use well in all situations. Heavy shooting (with an emphasis on S6+) with a countercharge detachment of an Avatar + Wraithblades with axes would be my choice of weapon.
> 
> Also, the Laser Lock rule is quite nice for both S6 Vypers (SL+SC hull mounted) and for Starcannons, and Karandras strikes at I7 with his fist (and the SS exarch has the same amount of Pfist attacks with S6 (+1 if you wanna) at I6.


I agree with most of your diatribe on bad design. There are several important lessons available by other games manufacturers that GW is simply pretending don't exist. It's perfectly possible to create a system that is entertaining to casual players yet tight enough to be played seriously by competitive players.

That aside, I think you've got it spot on with your first paragraph: Heavy S6 torrent with a counterpunch unit is the way forward. However since you need a Spiritseer to make the Wraithblades scoring, they ought to be Swords since they benefit a LOT more from the Psychic powers available, and since they're a mop-up unit only they don't even need the Avatar. Ideally they'll be engaging the dregs of the enemy after your firepower has dealt with them.

Scorpion Fists are nice, however the unit itself isn't durable or mobile enough to be worth taking. Certainly not worth the 220pts and HQ slot Karandras takes up, although I'm sure some people will have success with the "infiltrate deathstar of choice" gimmick.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Platton725 said:


> This is really bad design. After trying out a few different game systems and mulling it over, not having a predictable army that you can rely on is ridiculous. Rolling psychic powers is as stupid as rolling D3+3 for your SM captains WS & BS would be.


How do you reconcile that with the overwhelming popularity of the 40k system that has continued for the last 20 years or so where so many other game systems have died ?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> How do you reconcile that with the overwhelming popularity of the 40k system that has continued for the last 20 years or so where so many other game systems have died ?


For the same reason we have more than one Resident Evil film.

Pre-Existing fanbase.


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## Zerodyme619 (Jul 1, 2011)

I can understand, why people criticize balance, randomness etc. What really boggles me, is that Warmachine is always brought up as such a positive example. To me, Warmachine is a prime example of good ideas and a horrible execution. In addition, games feel often similar and repetitive, especially if you observe some of the tournaments....

Back on Topic:
I managed to play another game with the new Eldar, and I was quite pleased with the amount of damage my Avatar did to the enemy. (Enemy was SpaceMarines btw)
I also tried Scorpions against the marines, and was again surprised about the amount of dead Astartes, even though they had there ArmorSave against the majority of attacks..


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## w0lfgang7 (Feb 10, 2013)

Platton725 said:


> However, I cannot reconcile with GWs notion that random is good. Don't get me wrong, actual in-game random stuff like charges, hitting, wounding, that's quite fine. It's part of wargaming. It's the "my army can be ~50% better if I get the right rolls on a table" random stuff that I'm talking about...



Any army that has random powers does NOT have a general. You are no longer a Warlord. Warlords can actually plan and have enough sense to assign the right person to the right job. An army with random powers only has someone that was tossed into the ring blind, and at the last second at that.

All I can hear every time I look at randomly generated powers (ie farseer, warlock) is Illidan Stormrage saying, "You are not prepared!" If he was across the table from anyone leading a randomly generated army then he would finally be correct when he said that!

I think our house rule will be called, "You are not prepar...Wrong! I'm a warlord!" Or better yet, "You are not prepar...Wrong! Prepare to die! " ((no cost difference between powers so announce which one(s) you have before the game starts.))


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I think the random has been overhyped. Yes you can't plan as much but the vast majority of powers are good (Especially for the warlocks) They all have 2 modes to give you effectively twice as many powers as the enemy would making you far more versatile

Yes farseers have been seriously nerfed and their chart is meh, don't rely on them as much as you did in 4th/ 5th. All the boosts to WS/BS means that guide is needed less. The only painful lose is guaranteed doom and the nerf to mind war. Still a level 3 psyker, with effectively 4-6 powers for 100 points is good value!

For me the biggest annoyance is that you have to attach a character to your wraithblades/ guard squads rather than a generic warlock, or they will be munched by any champion with a powerfist or lightning claw


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## Platton725 (Apr 19, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> How do you reconcile that with the overwhelming popularity of the 40k system that has continued for the last 20 years or so where so many other game systems have died ?


I'm a GW fanboy. If they could get their act together and produce a well-functioning rules system, I'd start playing a lot again.

Also, I'll have to mention that Warmahordes is experiencing a never before seen growth in Sweden, a lot of the more experienced scene has switched to mostly Warmachine and playing those tourneys instead. So GW games is dropping rapidly among the more competitive community here. There's a reason our ETC team has consisted of a lot of newer names the last few years....

With regards to Warmachine being horribly executed, what I really like is that it feels like a proper "game", there are few to none rules questions that can't be resolved quickly during a game since most things are well defined, and while still having fixed spell lists and abilities the game allows for enough complexity that you can pull of weird/wonderful things for a win. Everything might not be 100% superfluffy, but it is a _game_. Not an exercise in rolling dice starting with your army generation.

Sethis:
I'm thinking axes purely for the AP2. Otherwise I'd love swords due to the extra attack, but I feel as a mop-up crew, 1A per model with S7 AP2 should be enough. Also, the Avatar serves the purpose of "making army no runney awayey" until he dies, which means he'll soak a lot of hits, and if he doesn't die he's another unit that can countercharge, which would make the wraithblades able to take on a full unit of assault terminators on the charge.


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