# Most anticipated 40k Moments



## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

One of the things I love most about the Horus Heresy series is that, like greek theatre, everyone already knows what happens, but it's up to the authors to make the story shine.

Anyway, I recently followed a link to this: http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/know-no-fear.html
And I wondered to myself at how much I have been anticipating reading about this. Ever since I got my hands on some basic details about what each legion was doing during the heresy back when I started getting into the hobby, I've wanted to know how the Word bearers fared against the Ultramarines.

So how about the rest of you Heretics? What moments have you looked forward to seeing illuminated in that series, and what moments are you still looking forward to?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sanguinius fighting Kha'Banda. Both times. :biggrin:


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Sanguinus doing stuff


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

the last chapter, then i can figure out how much GW milked what was a 10 book series at best.


but outside of that, the whole final battle and the build up to it.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ten books is too little. 

I'd have thought twenty, but meh...

It's making them money.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Suprisingly (and perhaps strangely) one of the occurences that I am most anticipating in the Heresy series is the aid from _"an unexpected quarter"_ that the Space Wolves recieve when defeat to the Alpha Legion seems certain.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Ten books is too little.
> 
> I'd have thought twenty, but meh...
> 
> It's making them money.


i wanted the series to focus on Horus and thats about it, but as i got deeper into the series the further from the actual plot i picked up the books for i seemed to get, im not saying they shouldnt make other books based on what jeff was doing when his planet got shit canned by big men in metal suits but the core story (about horus) should have been the focus, infact has his ass had any significant mention in the last 10 paper backs ? i need to to know as i have stopped reading the series


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> infact has his ass had any significant mention in the last 10 paper backs ? i need to to know as i have stopped reading the series


No, not really. He has had a bit of screen-time across a few novels, but nothing that has really progressed his plot-arc.

Whilst you're obviously entitled to your opinion in regards to what direction the series should have taken - I disagree. The Heresy was so much more than just Horus, it was a galaxy-wide civil war that effected pretty much every human world to some extent. There has been several flops in the series, but overall I have enjoyed exploring the different elements of 30k. I also think it would have been impractical to have primarily focussed on Horus, it would have left other prominent and vital plots untold and unexplained - Prospero, Signus and Calth for example. If they were not explored, Magnus would have just randomly seemed to have joined Horus without deep justification. Sanguinius and the Blood Angels would have gone through that period of transition and would have appeared as berserkers during the Siege of Terra without justification Et cetera.

Just my thoughts.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Horus had a cameo in Deliverance Lost.  

And if the series had focused solely on Horus there would have been a lot of butthurt fans crying for more attention for their faves. 

As it is, I am only reading the series because I thought it would only last a few years. That is no longer the case but I figure I've come this far. I only read now when the legion in question interests me.


Also, in addition to my above post, I am looking forward to seeing in detail how the final battle unfolds, and whether or not the Sanguinius fighting Horus lore happens or not.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, not really. He has had a bit of screen-time across a few novels, but nothing that has really progressed his plot-arc.
> 
> Whilst you're obviously entitled to your opinion in regards to what direction the series should have taken - I disagree. The Heresy was so much more than just Horus, it was a galaxy-wide civil war that effected pretty much every human world to some extent. There has been several flops in the series, but overall I have enjoyed exploring the different elements of 30k. I also think it would have been impractical to have primarily focussed on Horus, it would have left other prominent and vital plots untold and unexplained - Prospero, Signus and Calth for example. If they were not explored, Magnus would have just randomly seemed to have joined Horus without deep justification. Sanguinius and the Blood Angels would have gone through that period of transition and would have appeared as berserkers during the Siege of Terra without justification Et cetera.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


I completely agree, but i think telling the entire story of the entirety of mankind is taking it a bit too far and i really think they are milking the reader far too much, like i asked has Horus had any significant page time in the last 10 books? It seems not? well why not? i would have expected at least 2 books worth of stuff he could have been doing in the time scale, or for that fact has the emperor shown his face in any significant way yet? 

Im all for GW making money but the horus story arc has to move forward, and i know three people close to me who have canned the series because of the same reason all saying "i will come back when they back to the real story".


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> and whether or not the Sanguinius fighting Horus lore happens or not.


Why wouldn't it? How else is Sanguinius supposed to die?



bitsandkits said:


> like i asked has Horus had any significant page time in the last 10 books? It seems not? well why not? i would have expected at least 2 books worth of stuff he could have been doing in the time scale, or for that fact has the emperor shown his face in any significant way yet?


You are right, I would have expected Horus (or at least his Legion) to have been involved more - notably since the _Age of Darkness_ plot-arc began. Horus (or his Legion) hasn't been involved significantly since the opening few novels, something which I hope will be rectified soon. I hope the next time we see Horus isn't at the Siege of Terra - I want to see him during the _Age of Darkness_ and his transition into Chaos dedication beyond the rituals of Erebus.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I meant CotE, whether Sang will actually fight, or be passive in that confrontation. 

There are two versions, and I want to see which one they use.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

my desire in the series was fulfilled with Aurelian and The First Heretic. While paying 50 bucks for a book was absured in my opinion, I just HAD to know what happened to Lorgar and what he saw. To see Fateweaver's hands twisting around in the fates of humanity was pretty boss, and to see the Word Bearers (Who have been my favourite legion since the dawn of their fluff) fall from grace... I have been fulfilled so far, now Know no Fear is comming, I'm even more eager to see Lorgar kick the crap outta the Sons of Mcragge, because I loathe them just as the Word Bearers do!


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

I want to see Typhon's trechery and the fall of the Death Guard to Nurgle. Did Mortarion know or was he tricked by Typhon? He surely can't be happy with the outcome for his legion. 

I would also like to find out what happened to Tarvitz, Vipus, Rylanor and the others left on Isstvan III. Thats been quiet for too long now.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Before the series started these were the moments I really wanted to see.

Davin - check
Istvaan III and V - check
The flight of the Eisenstien - check
The Word Bearers turn to chaos - check
Prospero - check
Calth - soon to be check
Signus - later on this year
The unexpected help the Space Wolves receive - nothing so far
Siege of Terra - long way off


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## pb100 (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm really looking forward to the eventual Ravenor and Esienhorn reunion/showdown that Dan Abnett has hinted at in one of those YouTube video interviews.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

I really want to see what drove Perturabo to join Horus....I mean how was that bitterness developed that Perturabo felt towards Rogal Dorn...


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

HorusReborn said:


> my desire in the series was fulfilled with Aurelian and The First Heretic. While paying 50 bucks for a book was absured in my opinion, I just HAD to know what happened to Lorgar and what he saw. To see Fateweaver's hands twisting around in the fates of humanity was pretty boss, and to see the Word Bearers (Who have been my favourite legion since the dawn of their fluff) fall from grace... I have been fulfilled so far, now Know no Fear is comming, I'm even more eager to see Lorgar kick the crap outta the Sons of Mcragge, because I loathe them just as the Word Bearers do!


That presumes Lorgar is actually there at Calth. And at the end of _Aurelian_, when he talks to Argel Tal, he seems to suggest he won't be.

_"That is why I turn to you with the truth this evening, and not Kor Phaeron or Erebus. You, like me, have looked into the gods' eyes. And you, like me, have other wars to fight even as the Calth system burns." _


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## Captain_Daerys_Arrun (Jan 9, 2012)

-I want to find out about the two missing legions. There have been subtle hints in several books, let's just hear the whole story.

-Gaunt's Ghosts books.

-After The Gildar Rift, I want to see what Sarah Cawkwell does next in the 40k universe.

-Void Stalker and Aaron's Grey Knights novel.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That presumes Lorgar is actually there at Calth. And at the end of _Aurelian_, when he talks to Argel Tal, he seems to suggest he won't be.
> 
> _"That is why I turn to you with the truth this evening, and not Kor Phaeron or Erebus. You, like me, have looked into the gods' eyes. And you, like me, have other wars to fight even as the Calth system burns." _


The lore (_Collected Visions_ included) has Kor Phaeron lead the invasion of Calth whilst Lorgar is elsewhere (seemingly with Angron as of _Aurelian_) - which is the reason why Kor Phaeron was based in the Maelstrom rather than the Eye of Terror. So I presume that won't change with _Know No Fear_. Although isn't Argel Tal destined to be slain by Sanguinius? Which suggests Argel Tal will escape Calth and make it to Terra. Similarily the Night Lords were never said to have been present during the Siege of Terra (or at least the majority of the Legion including Curze weren't) but it seems to be the case that Talos and co. were there.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The lore (_Collected Visions_ included) has Kor Phaeron lead the invasion of Calth whilst Lorgar is elsewhere (seemingly with Angron as of _Aurelian_) - which is the reason why Kor Phaeron was based in the Maelstrom rather than the Eye of Terror. So I presume that won't change with _Know No Fear_. Although isn't Argel Tal destined to be slain by Sanguinius? Which suggests Argel Tal will escape Calth and make it to Terra. Similarily the Night Lords were never said to have been present during the Siege of Terra (or at least the majority of the Legion including Curze weren't) but it seems to be the case that Talos and co. were there.


Yep. 

Also, Lorgar was specifically noted as being at Terra later (and Kor Phaeron wasn't), adding to the "Lorgar wasn't at Calth" old lore that I stuck to in _Aurelian_ and _The Butcher's Nails_ - both of which were written long before _Know No Fear_ was even started.

As for the Night Lords, we really need to get away from the idea that the Legions all just hang out together. With 100,000 warriors and an entire galaxy to conquer, the Legions split up and divided themselves countless times. The bulk of a Legion may not have been in Place X, but there'd have been elements of the Legion's forces at A, B, C, D and E as well as X... etc.

I know you already get it, but I'm sliding this up for clarity. Some people still bizarrely choose not to think about this, and see it as an error if a handful of warriors are mentioned elsewhere. I've never understood that attitude; which is more likely? That it's an error, or that a few seconds of thought will show an obvious truth?

And so on.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> As for the Night Lords, we really need to get away from the idea that the Legions all just hang out together. With 100,000 warriors and an entire galaxy to conquer, the Legions split up and divided themselves countless times. The bulk of a Legion may not have been in Place X, but there'd have been elements of the Legion's forces at A, B, C, D and E as well as X... etc.
> 
> I know you already get it, but I'm sliding this up for clarity. Some people still bizarrely choose not to think about this, and see it as an error if a handful of warriors are mentioned elsewhere. I've never understood that attitude; which is more likely? That it's an error, or that a few seconds of thought will show an obvious truth?
> 
> And so on.


Indeed.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

All the Night Lords not being chummy and hanging out together? What?!

Since this isn't 'Anticipated Heresy Moments' I'm going to branch out- World Engine, Astral Knights destruction...get on it Dembski-Bowden.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Since this isn't 'Anticipated Heresy Moments' I'm going to branch out- World Engine, Astral Knights destruction...get on it Dembski-Bowden.


YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.

Funnily enough, that was one of the shortlisted things I suggested before writing _Helsreach_. But I was still really new, and the one time an editor said "Why not do something about Helsreach instead?" I just jumped at the idea.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.
> 
> Funnily enough, that was one of the shortlisted things I suggested before writing _Helsreach_. But I was still really new, and the one time an editor said "Why not do something about Helsreach instead?" I just jumped at the idea.


Just write it!

Justify it by saying it'll pay for Fuschia's pram (I'm not exactly sure how much you get paid per novel but I feel safe in presuming it's enough to cover most wheeled baby conveyances).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Let the man stick to his priorities _Baron_ - the Abaddon duology obviously must come first. opcorn:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Let the man stick to his priorities _Baron_ - the Abaddon duology obviously must come first. opcorn:


No!! Conundrum. Abaddon or World Engine?!...bollocks


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Let the man stick to his priorities _Baron_ - the Abaddon duology obviously must come first. opcorn:


If I did that these days, I think it'd probably/maybe/possibly be a long-term series, like Gaunt's Ghosts. There's an insane amount to write about.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> If I did that these days, I think it'd probably/maybe/possibly be a long-term series, like Gaunt's Ghosts. There's an insane amount to write about.


That would only make me happier. You're the only guy I would have writing it as well, the only one i'd have complete faith in to portray Abaddon as the Despoiler he is. It would probably be my most anticipated BL book/series ever. :shok:

Enough drooling though, I really couldn't care... whatever. :wasntme:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I second Baron's initial suggestion. 

If rules permit, I will third and fourth it as well. :biggrin:


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That presumes Lorgar is actually there at Calth. And at the end of _Aurelian_, when he talks to Argel Tal, he seems to suggest he won't be.
> 
> _"That is why I turn to you with the truth this evening, and not Kor Phaeron or Erebus. You, like me, have looked into the gods' eyes. And you, like me, have other wars to fight even as the Calth system burns." _


Perhaps I worded it wrong man.. I know Lorgar wont be there physically that's a given, but it's just the concept that his legion is going to kick the shit outta the Smurfs that gets my mojo going! Did Lorgar have any part in Calth? I mean he did become more powerful a psyker than Magnus... I dunno, I would think Lorgar would want to be at the destruction of the Ultramarines in some form or another since he has become more powerful since chillin with the daemons in "Aurelian".

:drinks:


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Yep.
> 
> Also, Lorgar was specifically noted as being at Terra later (and Kor Phaeron wasn't), adding to the "Lorgar wasn't at Calth" old lore that I stuck to in _Aurelian_ and _The Butcher's Nails_ - both of which were written long before _Know No Fear_ was even started.


Um, is that insinuating that he is present at Calth in Know No Fear or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

HorusReborn said:


> did become more powerful a psyker than Magnus


No


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

HorusReborn said:


> I mean he did become more powerful a psyker than Magnus...


No he didn't.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

The Crimson Fists fortress monastary story - *DONE*.
The betrayl at Istvaan - *DONE*.
The backstory and origin of The Legion of the Damned - *NOT DONE*.
Horus returning to his old self just before he dies - *NOT DONE*.

When those last 2 are completed, I can consider my wishlist of 40k story to be completed.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

HorusReborn said:


> I mean he did become more powerful a psyker than Magnus... I dunno, I would think Lorgar would want to be at the destruction of the Ultramarines in some form or another since he has become more powerful since chillin with the daemons in "Aurelian".


I saw someone else say that, once (and thankfully, just once). Magnus notes how strong Lorgar has become, and that's after Isstvan V. That's about it. Magnus is half a freaking galaxy way, appearing by sheer willpower, and his slightest irritation still starts fires in Lorgar's presence. Magnus is very clearly still the most powerful psyker among the primarchs. 

The time in the Eye of Terror was educational, but didn't make Lorgar psychically stronger. Lorgar's changes are matters of confidence and less restraint, all gained post-Isstvan, which we've not really seen yet.



mal310 said:


> Um, is that insinuating that he is present at Calth in Know No Fear or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?


I think I see what you mean. It's not trying to insinuate that Lorgar is at the Battle of Calth. I'm saying I stuck to the old lore, and that Lorgar most definitely isn't at Calth. I wrote _Aurelian_ and _The Butcher's Nails_ months before KNF, so chronologically they'll come first - and they both show Lorgar getting ready to do... other things.

The Word Bearers who are at Calth aren't at Terra when the final day dawns. So goes the oldest lore. And we definitely know Lorgar and Argel Tal were at Terra.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But Argel Tal is going to be at Calth is he not? _The First Heretic_ ended with him on his way to Calth. Sooo he at least manages to escape Calth.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> But Argel Tal is going to be at Calth is he not? _The First Heretic_ ended with him on his way to Calth. Sooo he at least manages to escape Calth.


He's musing about Calth. He wants to go. He's headed in that direction.

At first.

It's a long way between Isstvan and Calth. A lot of time to change courses.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Cool, cheers for clearing that up for us.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

aaah yes! Thanks ADB for clearing it up mate. To be honest, since I got my Nook over the summer and started as a medic I've spent way too much down time reading BL books. I read "Aurelian" and "Battle of the Fang" around the same time and in "Battle of the Fang" Magnus was broken by Russ and a mere shadow of his former self, where he was still quite whole in "Aurelian". Things just blurred into one another!


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Hey Aaron, as a BL Writer, do you ever get a feeling of paranoia over comments you leave in forums in case 'they' are watching?

I'm also really looking forward to seeing some more character development, particularly amongst the non-primarch key characters. If there are any loyalists I like, it's got to be the imperial fists, and I would like to see the three future leaders develop as people to the point where post heresy, an imperial navy frigate fires on them and they can keep their cool.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

HorusReborn said:


> in "Battle of the Fang" Magnus was broken by Russ and a mere shadow of his former self


If by "shadow of his former self" you mean he's now a daemon primarch in many ways more destructive and powerful than before (but with the drawbacks daemonic entities face in realspace)...


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Just one thing really.

Malcador.

He's always been the most interesting character in all of Warhammer 40k for me due to the fact that he's just a human. In a time of God's, myth and legend, a mere human (albeit, in my opinion, the most powerful human psyker ever) is essentially running the day to day operations of the Imperium during the Heresy. He is the ultimate example of sacrifice in the Imperium. The right hand of the Emperor, and the person who never questioned, but always stuck by him, even when the Emperor was just another person seeking to unite Terra.

He adds the _human_ element to the Heresy. On some level, I can never "feel" for Horus, or Lorgar, or Russ, or any of the Primarchs or even the Astartes, because they are SO far above mortals that it places them in another realm. 

They will never reveal too much about the Emperor, but through Malcador, we can be granted glimpses. And to be honest, if you're telling the story of the Heresy, at some point the Emperor MUST be addressed. To just...never go over it would be unsatisfying.

So that's what I'm looking forward to. A book, with Malcador as the primary character. I surely hope it happens at some point in this series. As far as a particular event? None really. All of his actions described in the CV are tragic and heart wrenching.


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## deepsix81 (Dec 24, 2011)

Completely agree about the Sigilite. A story dedicated to him will undoubtedly provide more ammo for those who feel that the series is being milked, but there seems to be so much more of his character and story to be explored.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Agreed. I'm a sucker for characters who have put aside their own wants and needs and petty power-grasping in favor of serving as steward/spymaster/shepherd of a nation or empire, because they wholly and truly believe in doing what's best for the realm. Malcador the Sigilite, Varys the eunuch (A Song of Ice and Fire), Relius the Secretary of the Archives (the Thief series)... these are characters with whom I am wholly enamored and enjoy reading about greatly. They are the selfless heroes who never took up arms; who are intelligent, are manipulators...but not fighters.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Good call on Malcador, and even if he doesn't get a book he'll have to be a big character when we eventually get to the siege of Terra (in about 2030...).

Personally one thing I'd like to see is what actually happened to Vulkan at Isstvan. Did he survive, and if he did where the hell was he for the rest of the heresy?! We just about seem to be moving past the massacre in the timeline now, but I'm sure it can be squeezed in somewhere.

I'd also like to see a big traitor character or two get killed at some point, even though we know Horus is about the only one who doesn't make it to M.41...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well we know Sevatar and Argel Tal are going to die. I would bet quite highly that Aximand is fucked aswell. Kaesoron and Vairosean might bight it aswell if they feature again. But pretty much all the other major astartes heretics are known to survive the Heresy, Abaddon, Lucius, Erebus, Kor Phareon, Typhus, Kharn(well he dies but Khorne brings him back), Fabius, Eidolon, Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon, Falkus Kibre.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tywin Lannister said:


> I'd also like to see a big traitor character or two get killed at some point, even though we know Horus is about the only one who doesn't make it to M.41...





Angel of Blood said:


> Well we know Sevatar and Argel Tal are going to die. I would bet quite highly that Aximand is fucked aswell. Kaesoron and Vairosean might bight it aswell if they feature again. But pretty much all the other major astartes heretics are known to survive the Heresy, Abaddon, Lucius, Erebus, Kor Phareon, Typhus, Kharn(well he dies but Khorne brings him back), Fabius, Eidolon, Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon, Falkus Kibre.


It's a shame that so many major characters are destined to survive the Heresy.

Sevatar and Argel Tal are both Aaron's creations and both are going to die, which is only logical given how many named traitors survived a galaxy-wide civil war that they lost. I would have appriciated a few more major characters to have been involved in the series and to have also perished in the series. Sevatar and Argel Tal are the only two that spring to mind actually, both of which are Aaron's. It's also another reason why I would have appriciated Loken dying on Isstvan III.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well we know Sevatar and Argel Tal are going to die. I would bet quite highly that Aximand is fucked aswell. Kaesoron and Vairosean might bight it aswell if they feature again. But pretty much all the other major astartes heretics are known to survive the Heresy, Abaddon, Lucius, Erebus, Kor Phareon, Typhus, Kharn(well he dies but Khorne brings him back), Fabius, Eidolon, Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon, Falkus Kibre.





Angel of Blood said:


> But pretty much all the other major astartes heretics are known to survive the Heresy, Abaddon, Lucius, Erebus, Kor Phareon, Typhus, Kharn(well he dies but Khorne brings him back), Fabius, Eidolon, Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon, Falkus Kibre.





Angel of Blood said:


> Erebus


Fucking hell and damnation. :headbutt:


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## Emperor0 (May 23, 2011)

> It's a shame that so many major characters are destined to survive the Heresy.
> 
> Sevatar and Argel Tal are both Aaron's creations and both are going to die, which is only logical given how many named traitors survived a galaxy-wide civil war that they lost. I would have appriciated a few more major characters to have been involved in the series and to have also perished in the series. Sevatar and Argel Tal are the only two that spring to mind actually, both of which are Aaron's. It's also another reason why I would have appriciated Loken dying on Isstvan III.



Argel Tal isn't ADB Character, he's in Collected Visions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Emperor0 said:


> Argel Tal isn't ADB Character, he's in Collected Visions.


Yeah I know, what I meant was that ADB brought him into the series and created his lore (beyond a single picture) - essentially he made him a major character.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

A novelization about the birth of the Tau, which should be something along the lines of the below: 

http://wobblymodel.weebly.com/comic-7.html

We all know it happened like that. Right?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Emperor0 said:


> Argel Tal isn't ADB Character, he's in Collected Visions.


I used a name from _Collected Visions_, just for a teeny-tiny nod to old canon. He doesn't look like that picture, he's not got the same rank as listed in that picture, and there's no mention of Argel Tal in _CV_ beyond that one picture. He's most definitely my character.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's a shame that so many major characters are destined to survive the Heresy.
> 
> Sevatar and Argel Tal are both Aaron's creations and both are going to die, which is only logical given how many named traitors survived a galaxy-wide civil war that they lost. I would have appriciated a few more major characters to have been involved in the series and to have also perished in the series. Sevatar and Argel Tal are the only two that spring to mind actually, both of which are Aaron's. It's also another reason why I would have appriciated Loken dying on Isstvan III.


Agreed, though Loken kind of balances it out in a way. Still not confident he will survive the Heresy either. Again though, I'm fairly sure Aximand will die. But he's the only other major heretic character I can think of who will.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Agreed, though Loken kind of balances it out in a way. Still not confident he will survive the Heresy either. Again though, I'm fairly sure Aximand will die. But he's the only other major heretic character I can think of who will.


Aren't there rumors that GW are planning to bring Aximand as a Chaos Marine character in 40k? If this is true, it would mean that Little Horus survives the heresy and lives on to pester the imperium for 10,000 years ))


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Chaosveteran said:


> Aren't there rumors that GW are planning to bring Aximand as a Chaos Marine character in 40k? If this is true, it would mean that Little Horus survives the heresy and lives on to pester the imperium for 10,000 years ))


Almost definitely not true. Even we haven't fully decided his fate, yet. They wouldn't use him.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

If I were to ask for one character it would be Sigismund,especially at Terra where he's fighting all the champions on the walls. But for 40K...well I would say Blood Angels. According to the codex they have Khal'Banda comin from one side and some Tyranids on the other, really wanna see them squeeze their way out of this one


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's a shame that so many major characters are destined to survive the Heresy.
> 
> Sevatar and Argel Tal are both Aaron's creations and both are going to die, which is only logical given how many named traitors survived a galaxy-wide civil war that they lost. I would have appriciated a few more major characters to have been involved in the series and to have also perished in the series. Sevatar and Argel Tal are the only two that spring to mind actually, both of which are Aaron's. It's also another reason why I would have appriciated Loken dying on Isstvan III.


It is indeed very unfortunate that a lot of these characters do survive (especally Erebus) but then the writers were stuck with that if they were going to use them. Some do die and indeed already have. I'd like to see some new big "bad" guys created so they can be bumped off though at some point. Preferably in a most fitting way. 

I don't think this needs a spolier, Horus kicks the bucket late in the game! 

Spoiler



The following are already Father Ted.

Luc Sedirae
Xaphen
Ignatius Grulgor

I would hope this lot are for the chop at some stage

Serghar Targost
Tybalt Marr
Maloghurst
etc

PS I'm glad Loken survived, I'm sure he will die at some stage and it will be well worth the wait.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Almost definitely not true. Even we haven't fully decided his fate, yet. They wouldn't use him.


Ah damn that's a shame...I was hoping for some new characters for the Chaos side...besides making a new Abaddon figure Chaos needs some new injections...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

mal310 said:


> It is indeed very unfortunate that a lot of these characters do survive (especally Erebus)


Especially fucking Erebus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmm Targost and Marr could well die, though they aren't really big enough characters to care really. Maloghurst could be another rather large name for the death list.

Would quite like to see more than one main traitor character die at Sigismunds hands as he searches through the Siege as the Emperors Champion singling out champions to defeat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mal310 said:


> I'd like to see some new big "bad" guys created so they can be bumped off though at some point. Preferably in a most fitting way.


I concur.



mal310 said:


> The following are already Father Ted.
> 
> Luc Sedirae
> Xaphen
> *Ignatius Grulgor*


Grulgor reappeared on Medusa IV though, so he wasn't truly killed.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Almost definitely not true. Even we haven't fully decided his fate, yet. They wouldn't use him.


I know about the whole grimdark thing, but surely Loken has to be allowed to kill Aximand to avenge Torgadden...

As for 'Fucking Erebus' (which should be canon!) I think we have to hope that some future iteration of Codex: CSM will tell of how he got too cocky and challenged Khorne to a fight after school!

Going back to stuff we'd like to see I'd like to properly get inside Horus' head when he's orbiting Terra on the Vengeful Spirit - why did he really lower the shields and what did he think was going to happen?


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Tywin Lannister said:


> I know about the whole grimdark thing, but surely Loken has to be allowed to kill Aximand to avenge Torgadden...
> 
> As for 'Fucking Erebus' (which should be canon!) I think we have to hope that some future iteration of Codex: CSM will tell of how he got too cocky and challenged Khorne to a fight after school!
> 
> Going back to stuff we'd like to see I'd like to properly get inside Horus' head when he's orbiting Terra on the Vengeful Spirit - why did he really lower the shields and what did he think was going to happen?


I believe he lowered the shields in order to lure the Emperor to his battle barge and to end the fighting once and for all. As in, cut off the head, and the body will follow. If he had killed the Emperor, the fight for Earth would have definitely been over for the loyalists and Horus would rule (muahaha!!). However, the dupe had a pang of sorrow and a change of heart (some sudden breakthrough of the "previous good Horus"), which gave the Emperor the ***** in the armor, as it were, to kill Horus...so sad...


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## Duke_Leto (Dec 11, 2010)

W30k

All the major events listed in Collected Visions (plus I personally like some of the diversions from the "main plot" such as Nemesis)

+ 

I want to see some books about The Scouring (but have read somewhere that BL and the authors agree that the series should end with the Siege of Terra etc - shame as far as I am concerned)

Personally as long as the story quality is good (and all but maybe 2 early novels have been) then keep going. You can only call it milking if you are buying the books against your will - ie you have to!

W40k

Have always wanted to read about: 

The Badab War (the Forge World books are a good tease)
The Macharian Crusade/Heresy (and it looks like they are on their way thanks to William King).


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## malitov (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm actually enjoying all the Heresy books as they are. Exploring other areas of the fluff of 30k are fine with me as long as it's written well. 

Stories I'd like to see:

The life and times of Fabius Bile(Actual title I'd like to see). Not done
The Macharian Crusade. Coming soon
The Unification Wars. Not done


I'd also like to see Erebus mess up and spend the eternity getting his soul butt raped by some greater deamon.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Am I the only one who loves to hate Erebus? He's such a deliciously evil and manipulative character, no one else holds a candle to him. I enjoy every scene he's in, even if I hate his guts as I read about him.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As I understand it, Horus was getting desperate as he was pushed closer and closer to a corner. The Ultramarines and Space Wolves where both on their way towards Terra and if they would arrive before the death of the Emperor, they would certainly loose. So he made a waging bet and to some extent lost it.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Something else I'd like to see would be stuff about the fate of the loyalists Primarchs who survived the Heresey, although I assume that'll have to wait until the HH books have finished.

In particular I think that the story of Dorn's death on board the Sword of Sacrilege must be a really dramatic one. He and Curze are the only Primarchs to die not by the hand of the Emperor or another Primarch, and Dorn leading a suicide mission against a dark crusade sounds pretty epic.

Other than that it would be good to know more about the Khan chasing a Dark Eldar lord in to the webway (did he think it was a good idea?!), Guilliman getting himself killed by Fulgrim and the departures of Russ, Corax, the Lion and Vulkan (assuming he survived Isstvan V).

Obviously what I'd _really_ like to see would be the returns of the Khan, Russ, Vulkan, the Lion and Corax (and Guilliman waking up, obviously...), but I suspect we won't get that!


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Am I the only one who loves to hate Erebus? He's such a deliciously evil and manipulative character, no one else holds a candle to him. I enjoy every scene he's in, even if I hate his guts as I read about him.


No you are not alone in this! He is a great character... and has been portrayed well! To me he ranks up there with Tim Roth in his portrayal of Archie in the movie Rob Roy. I love to hate him to this day! Any portrayal of a character that stirs that kind of emotion in someone has done it's job. Erebus is great!! His portrayal has been well executed if you love to hate him!


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Tywin Lannister said:


> In particular I think that the story of Dorn's death on board the Sword of Sacrilege must be a really dramatic one. He and Curze are the only Primarchs to die not by the hand of the Emperor or another Primarch, and Dorn leading a suicide mission against a dark crusade sounds pretty epic.


Did Dorn actually die, or just disappear? I recall reading conflicting information.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Karthak said:


> Did Dorn actually die, or just disappear? I recall reading conflicting information.


He died.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I would also like to see Dorn's end. Firstly, because he has become one of my least favourite HH characters. I mean, really, he features a shit load but every time he does pop up he's portrayed as a useless, miserable douche. Secondly, I'd love to know what the fuck actually managed to kill him.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

What we know of Dorn is that his hand is all they recovered. As I understand it, whether that means dead, or wandering around with one hand somewhere...is open to interpretation.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> What we know of Dorn is that his hand is all they recovered. As I understand it, whether that means dead, or wandering around with one hand somewhere...is open to interpretation.


Nope we know his body is preserved in amber, and we know it was his chief librarian that carried his body from the chaos bridge.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Ah, all right. Color me corrected.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

If AD-B does ever write the _Rise of the Warmaster_ duology (or series) it would be interesting to see Dorn's self-sacrifice if the duology/series culminated with Abaddon's first Black Crusade (if indeed Dorn's death was during Abaddon's first Black Crusade and not a later one of Abaddon's or indeed the Black Crusade of another warlord).


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

He's dead in Ian Watson's Space Marine...but I'm pretty sure that novel isn't canon anymore 

If they can retcon the reason for Corax's failure, I don't see why they can't retcon Dorn's death into a disappearance



Chaosveteran said:


> However, the dupe had a pang of sorrow and a change of heart (some sudden breakthrough of the "previous good Horus"), which gave the Emperor the ***** in the armor, as it were, to kill Horus...so sad...


The ***** in his armour is attributed to Sanguinius 
What happened is that Horus thought the Emperor was done, got a bit cocky and lowered his defenses 
He probably never realized that the Emperor had been holding back 
when the Emperor unleashed his full psychic might, Horus realized that he was fu**ed


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> He's dead in Ian Watson's Space Marine...but I'm pretty sure that novel isn't canon anymore
> 
> If they can retcon the reason for Corax's failure, I don't see why they can't retcon Dorn's death into a disappearance
> 
> ...


Except the last reference stating Dorn was killed and his body recovered is from 2011- specifically _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except the last reference stating Dorn was killed and his body recovered is from 2011- specifically _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_.


And the _Index Astartes_ and the _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_. Dorn is very dead.

Question is, what the hell killed him? Before reading the Heresy and gaining an appreciation for the power of a Primarch I assumed he was overwhelmed by traitor marines and killed. Now I think Abaddon killed him, or a very powerful Daemon Prince. Either way its something i'd like to know more about.


LotN


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, Luther and Kor Phaeron, Chaos favoured "half-Astartes", gave the Lion and Guilliman a lot of trouble

...but I believe Deliverance Lost contradicts Collected Visions with regard to the reason for Corax's failure to rebuild his legion


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> And the _Index Astartes_ and the _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_. Dorn is very dead.


Just to nitpick, the Imperial Fists _IA_ article only refers to Dorn's hand (rather than his body) although it can be argued as being implicit in suggesting he died. The _Collected Visions_ also do not reference Dorn's death at all, it ends with the Emperor's ascension.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't believe Dorn goes out the way he does, it would just make little sense and be a pretty pathetic way for one of the most eminent Primarchs. I'd prefer it if he did a Vulkan/Khan/Corax than simply dying. 

On the topic, I want to see Sigismund getting to grips with some Traitor Champions, Dorn having a face off against a Primarch in a battle similar to the Lion vs Curze fight in the short story. For example we never knew Corax nearly owned Lorgar during the Drop Site Massacre, maybe Dorn has a punch up with a Primarch during the siege.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't believe Dorn goes out the way he does, it would just make little sense and be a pretty pathetic way for one of the most eminent Primarchs. I'd prefer it if he did a Vulkan/Khan/Corax than simply dying.
> 
> On the topic, I want to see Sigismund getting to grips with some Traitor Champions, Dorn having a face off against a Primarch in a battle similar to the Lion vs Curze fight in the short story. For example we never knew Corax nearly owned Lorgar during the Drop Site Massacre, maybe Dorn has a punch up with a Primarch during the siege.


when did Curze fight Lion? What story is this?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The short story _Savage Weapons_ in Age of Darkness.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't believe Dorn goes out the way he does, it would just make little sense and be a pretty pathetic way for one of the most eminent Primarchs. I'd prefer it if he did a Vulkan/Khan/Corax than simply dying.


Preventing a Black Crusade taking Cadia was quite a valuable sacrifice... And indeed may have proved vital in allowing the Imperium to endure. I prefer the variation with Dorn's tale, rather than simply disappearing - his death has meaning and worth.



Chaosveteran said:


> when did Curze fight Lion? What story is this?


_Savage Weapons_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Though it doesn't specifically state they found his body in the IA article, it does say that they found his remains. Remains tends to imply death.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Though it doesn't specifically state they found his body in the IA article, it does say that they found his remains. Remains tends to imply death.


It's the pics or it didn't happen principle. Unless a character is specifically stated as having been killed, or the entirety of their rotting corpse, or at least the important bits, are found, they aren't dead. Though I would agree that the giant golden tit is probably dead.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

As I've said before, _Deliverance Lost_ pisses all over Index Astartes and Collected Visions...what makes you guys think that a retcon of Dorn's death is out of the question?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> As I've said before, _Deliverance Lost_ pisses all over Index Astartes and Collected Visions...what makes you guys think that a retcon of Dorn's death is out of the question?


It's not out of the question, it could happen, but as of right now he's inarguably dead- the latest iteration of his death was put in print in 2011, and it could not be clearer that Dorn is a corpse.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

That book though was going by old fluff, and probably wasn't scrutinised with the intention of clearing that up so I wouldn't take it to be an clear indication. Things change, an unless I see a codex, 40k rulebook or black library novel, all of which I consider as primary sources, I'll keep my view that his death is in question and not confirmed.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That book though was going by old fluff, and probably wasn't scrutinised with the intention of clearing that up so I wouldn't take it to be an clear indication. Things change, an unless I see a codex, 40k rulebook or black library novel, all of which I consider as primary sources, I'll keep my view that his death is in question and not confirmed.


Except for the fact it wasn't regurgitating old fluff and was in significantly more detail than anything presented before- as well as being a slight retcon in itself (the Chief Librarian finds and carries Dorn's body from the bridge rather than dying alongside him).

You are of course welcome to entertain which ever fantasies you desire, I personally will go along with the fluff until a source suggests an alternative (so far no alternative has been presented other than fan-fic).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except for the fact it wasn't regurgitating old fluff and was in significantly more detail than anything presented before- as well as being a slight retcon in itself (the Chief Librarian finds and carries Dorn's body from the bridge rather than dying alongside him).
> 
> You are of course welcome to entertain which ever fantasies you desire, I personally will go along with the fluff until a source suggests an alternative (so far no alternative has been presented other than fan-fic).


The definition of a fantasy is: The faculty or activity of imagining things that are impossible or improbable.

or

Imagine the occurrence of; fantasize about.

I don't think it's impossible or improbable that Dorn doesn't die in that way. If anything it's an Idea, not a fantasy. In fact calling it a fantasy is pretty insulting, when it's a perfectly sensible idea.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The definition of a fantasy is: The faculty or activity of imagining things that are impossible or improbable.
> 
> or
> 
> ...


And that's where we disagree, I do consider it improbable (at least in regards to the info we're currently presented with) so 'Fantasy' seems entirely accurate to me. 

It's an idea that stems from what someone *wishes* to happen with no recourse to the evidence as it stands.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The evidence is paper thin at best and based on two outdated sources and a recently written book by a defunct company (that's if it was Sabertooth Games that wrote it, if not my bad.)


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The evidence is paper thin at best and based on two outdated sources and a recently written book by a defunct company (that's if it was Sabertooth Games that wrote it, if not my bad.)


FFG and their recent _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_- as far as I'm aware the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/Black Crusade books are considered just as much Canon as a Codex or BL publication.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm okay then, i'll just go and imagine Sanguinius is alive aswell, they could retcon that too. Oh no wait, thats absurd because the death of a primarch, or lack of, is entirely different to how the Raven Guard monsters came about.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There was more than just the monsters coming about, the fact Corax took a trip to Terra being another. Primarchs have been retconned several times, Alpharius having a twin, Fulgrim not simply going to meet Horus on Istvaan and being drugged etc and turning him that way. They both had as much info on them as Dorns supposed death does.

Anyway we've been over this many times, so lets just wait to see whether any direct confirmations springs up in 40k or the novels rather than some supplement for a separate game.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

If we're talking Deliverance Lost I didn't get the impression that Corax was sufficiently guilty about the thing that happened to go nuts over it the way he's supposed to after the Heresy.

With Dorn if he doesn't die when he's supposed to then they'll have to come up with some completely new way to get rid of him as he certainly ain't around in M.41. Don't see that happening.

But I digress.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Corax was never stated to not go to Terra, Fulgrims corruption was never explored before, even Alpharius having a twin is easily explained away by the fragmented history of the secretive and manipulative XX Legion. None of those things you have pointed out are retcons(aside from the way the monsters came about, which again doesn't change the ultimate outcome), just the original fluff fleshed out. Dorn going from dead to alive however is not the fluff being expanded upon, it is it being drastically altered.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not saying he has to be alive, not at all, just not dying in that fashion. I'd prefer he did a vulkan rather than what supposedly happened. 

Not sure what IA article it was in but it's stated Fulgrim went to reason with Horus and instead was drugged and manipulated into siding with Horus.

Many things have been fleshed out in this series true, I don't see why Dorns "fall" could be fleshed out to sound a lot more representative of such an eminent Primarch rather than he failed to take the bridge of a battle ship.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> FFG and their recent _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_- as far as I'm aware the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/Black Crusade books are considered just as much Canon as a Codex or BL publication.


Yeah...Fantasy Flight's stuff is to be taken with a grain of salt 
I recall that in one of their books, the Lion is described as being the first primarch to be found (or something similarly inaccurate) 

I don't really _wish_ Dorn to have disappeared rather than to have died 
Honestly, I'm indifferent 

I'm just saying that in light of Deliverance Lost's massive retcons, I won't be surprised one bit if they retcon Dorn's death...such a retcon wouldn't be "improbable" in my opinion


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He didn't fail though. He took the bridge but was killed in the process, almost single handedly stopping dead a potentially devastating Black Crusade.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Corax was never stated to not go to Terra


The reason he failed to rebuild his legion was most certainly re-written in Deliverance Lost



Angel of Blood said:


> Oh no wait, thats absurd because the death of a primarch, or lack of, is entirely different to how the Raven Guard monsters came about.


Sorry, but what you're saying doesn't make much sense
...changing Dorn's death to Dorn's disappearance would be no more drastic than the changes made by Gav in Deliverance Lost


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Bleh you have all been going in circles for the past few pages its actualy kinda depressing. And surely it belongs in a Deliverance Lost thread? :S

Anyway the title is what moments are you looking forward to? Me personaly any thing Alpha Legion is a huge win for me so idealy im really looking forward to Alpha Legion vs Ultramarines on Eskrador


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> Yeah...Fantasy Flight's stuff is to be taken with a grain of salt
> I recall that in one of their books, the Lion is described as being the first primarch to be found (or something similarly inaccurate)
> 
> I don't really _wish_ Dorn to have disappeared rather than to have died
> ...


I'm trying to find that reference about the Lion but in all the books the Dark Angels appear in the closest I've found is that they are first amongst Chapters (similar to how Ultramarines are 'first amongst Chapters' in the Codex).

Since I've found no inaccuracies in FFGs books so far (or at least nothing more than the average Codex, Imperial Armour, or BL novel) I'll continue to consider them canon.

And what's this bullshit about changing a Primarch death to a disappearance being of no more consequence than altering the reason why acclerated RG Astartes mutated? I don't understand how changing his heroic sacrifice to wandering off without his hands wouldn't be an improbable change


p.s
FYI- Omegon as Alpharius' twin isn't a retcon- according to Dan Abnett GW have always held that there were twin Primarchs in control of the Alpha Legion. They just never filled in that Legions background with the info before _Legion_.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> He didn't fail though. He took the bridge but was killed in the process, almost single handedly stopping dead a potentially devastating Black Crusade.


He did fail since when they found his "remains" it was only after the rest of the Imperial Fists fleet turned up and boarded the ship before it could jump into the warp, if he was successful I doubt the ship would of been moving at all and Dorn would of been alive and the fists wouldn't of needed to stop it fleeing.

If it does delve more into how he died, I really hope it's not a sucky way of dying that's all. I'm actually quite bored of how much has happened on the bridges of ships in the Heresy series already. 

I don't think we need another, especially when you have the likes of Sanguinius and the Emperor's fights vs Horus, both would make the current idea of Dorn's demise seem pretty pathetic.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> And what's this bullshit about changing a Primarch death to a disappearance being of no more consequence than altering the reason why acclerated RG Astartes mutated? I don't understand how changing his heroic sacrifice to wandering off without his hands wouldn't be an improbable change.


I'm sorry mate, it would only be "bullshit" if you were forced to be the writer 

Dorn doesn't have to throw an emo fit and wander off. He could instead 
1) win that battle on the bridge and disappear during a subsequent engagement
or 
2) somehow be lost during the battle on the bridge (without being confirmed dead) 

There are many ways in which a skilled writer could go about changing Dorn's death without undermining the character... 

I think the only loyalist primarch whose death could not be changed to a disappearance is Sanguinius. His confrontation with Horus and his subsequent death by the hand of his fallen brother constitute one of the most iconic events in 40K lore. That would be foolish to change. 

Gav's changes completely changed the nature of Corax's failure. Another poster neatly summarized how the new version of Corax's personal tragedy is not as powerful as the old version. I'll find it and post it in a while.



> Since I've found no inaccuracies in FFGs books so far (or at least nothing more than the average Codex, Imperial Armour, or BL novel) I'll continue to consider them canon.


I'll dig it up and get back to you


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

There is a section called 40k fluff where fluff can be discussed in context. You could start a thread there and discuss your differing points of views. 

Given that this is a thread about anticipated moments in 40k rather than what's been retconned and what hasn't, I think that's a great idea. 

I'm looking forward to the next novel covering the Fall of Damnos (assuming one is coming). The ending of the first book just left me with that feeling of _but I thought there would be more... _


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm really looking forward to Primarchs book, I really hope it has a lot of interaction between the Primarchs.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> MontytheMighty said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah...Fantasy Flight's stuff is to be taken with a grain of salt. I recall that in one of their books, the Lion is described as being the first primarch to be found (or something similarly inaccurate)
> ...


Not trying to embarass you Baron, but I did some some digging and this is rather ironic:


Baron Spikey said:


> Just a note about the new supplement for the Deathwatch RPG, whilst it's a fantastic book filled with absolutely loads of juicy fluff some of it directly contradicts canon.
> 
> 2 Examples I've noticed so far are a speech by Rogal Dorn about how the Imperium has stood for 10,000 years against it's enemies- impressive speech considering Dorn has been dead for nearly 10,000 years- and the statement that Lion El'Jonson was the first Primarch found, which is silly as there are numerous sources (GW and BL) which state it is Horus.
> 
> ...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> Not trying to embarass you Baron, but I did some some digging and this is rather ironic:


Well stick a carrot in my arse and call me penelope, undone by myself.

I salute you sir, verily I do.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Chaosveteran said:


> I believe he lowered the shields in order to lure the Emperor to his battle barge and to end the fighting once and for all. As in, cut off the head, and the body will follow. If he had killed the Emperor, the fight for Earth would have definitely been over for the loyalists and Horus would rule (muahaha!!). However, the dupe had a pang of sorrow and a change of heart (some sudden breakthrough of the "previous good Horus"), which gave the Emperor the ***** in the armor, as it were, to kill Horus...so sad...


Anyway, coming back to this, it still doesn't quite stand up for me. The traitors had won the battle and the fall of Terra was inevitable once the walls of the palace were breached. The Ultramarines and the Space Wolves may have been approaching, but both had been badly mauled already by the World Bearers and Alpha Legion respectively, and given the forces Horus had at his disposal I don't think they'd have been enough. The Dark Angels may have been in better shape, but what they'd have done is a whole other conversation...

Horus might have fancied settling things mano-a-mano and have underestimated the Emperor, but I'm sure his 'sponsors' knew exactly what the Emperor could do and I'm surprised they let it happen. 

I'm sure all will become clear in time!

Anyway, can I add Eidolon to the list of people who need to get killed. I'm sure he can be retconned out of his tenuous presence in M.41!


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## TriNeaX (Feb 25, 2012)

The moment Sanguinius confronts Horus..
Ever since I read a particular part of "Deliverance Lost",

_'No, when the Blood Angels hear of this treachery, there'll be no stopping Sanguinius. Lord Dorn calls him the Angel of Death, and I can't imagaine Flgrim, Perturabo, Lorgar or any of the others wanting to step between Horus and the Angel's vengeance. It'll be Sanguinius, mark my words.'_

Even if I know he will be slain, no primarch can claim the same concept of righteousness as the lord of the angels.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I am enjoying the series in general. Even the Chapters that I don't necessarily favor I like reading about. With that said the two that I am most interested in are the Death Guard and the Blood Angels...both of which are to be butchered by my least favorite author (James Swallow)...sigh.


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## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

gridge said:


> I am enjoying the series in general. Even the Chapters that I don't necessarily favor I like reading about. With that said the two that I am most interested in are the Death Guard and the Blood Angels...both of which are to be butchered by my least favorite author (James Swallow)...sigh.


I am also not a fan of JS but I am grateful that from all mediocre and bad authors it is him who writes BA in HH. After all it could end with Nick Kyme. fortunately he will probably continue to butcher Salamanders, chapter that I abhor.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Shadow Walker said:


> I am also not a fan of JS but I am grateful that from all mediocre and bad authors it is him who writes BA in HH. After all it could end with Nick Kyme. fortunately he will probably continue to butcher Salamanders, chapter that I abhor.


I agree that Kyme isn't that great either when it comes to Astartes. He did, however, write a couple very good books about dwarfs. In actuality, I like the first Salamander novel for the most part (there were some leaps of logic that took away from the story) but the next two were awful. I couldn't even finish Nocturne. As for Swallow, I just wish they wouldn't use him for my two favorites. Hell, I would even take Gav over him and I'm not a big fan of his either. Although, with Thorpe it isn't so much that I don't like his ideas, I just don't much like the way he writes. I think I would rather have no BA books then bad ones...they just depress me.


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## deepsix81 (Dec 24, 2011)

It's a little late in the game for an origin story, but I'm looking forward to a story focused on the Sigilite. In particular, why and how was he chosen to be the Emperor's most trusted servant. Was/is he a part of these newly introduced groups that we were shown in Know No Fear?


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