# 3D Printers and 40K



## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Alright first of all, if you do not know what 3D printing is, here is a video for you

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_UZE
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 (Ok I don't know how to embed the video into the forum post)

Alright, so now that you know what 3D printing is, i can get to my point.

You can now buy some smaller 3D printers (don't ask me about prices because i have no idea), that can print in different materials and pretty much any shape or size you want.

Obviously this is rather amazing technology, but how is GW going to protect it's business from these amazing machines?

Assuming the correct material can be printed, could we not just print out that extra Dreadnaught and 10 tactical marines we need? or why not borrow your friends BaneBlade and print yourself one?

Best case scenario i can see is if GW did find a way to prevent their models from being printed by anyone, Will GW start using them to print out there own models?

What do you think these printers will do to the future of modeling?


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## projectda (May 12, 2008)

i think it will give amazing custom models. once you have the CAD file. you can edit it, add detail, and make it as personalised as you like. 
the cost though, will be alot still. so it wont be better to print your own for awhile.
1000$ will be a cheap price for just the printer.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

these printers will have zero impact on the future of this game, home 3d printers are never going to be cost effective vs buying the models, for them to take off they would need a real world use, for example normal printers print paper work and photos, outside of that there is no real point to a printer, so a 3d printer would need a real world application to become mainstream, paper printers were realy the stuff of offices until digital photography took off, if you take models off the table what real world use would anyone have to own a 3d printer? what things around the house would you need to print in a resin type material over buying already made? and would you buy it if it cost you more to print it anyway? at best it would be for hobby use and our hobby isnt that main stream so i couldnt see it being a profitable venture. 
Its good technology and i think its great for prototypying and such but i cant see it transfering to home use and be cheap enough to be worth owning unless your a model designer/freelance architect etc


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I can see that in time they will have a significant impact on the model market but model makers will have sufficient time to reorganise their businesses to provide the required CAD files rather than the models themselves. 

It probably represents a considerable boon for them as it hands to us the overheads of actually producing the models. It is going to take a wile until the home printers get to a quality equal to the pro units.

How will they protect their business? The same way the do now. You are just as able now to make moulds of GW minis and produce your own.

As BoK says professional quality items will still be required. I don't print any of my photos myself why? it is cheaper, easier and far far better to take it to a shop that has the good gear.

I've just bought some 3D printed figures so watch this space for a PLog on them.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I can see that in time they will have a significant impact on the model market but model makers will have sufficient time to reorganise their businesses to provide the required CAD files rather than the models themselves.
> 
> It probably represents a considerable boon for them as it hands to us the overheads of actually producing the models. It is going to take a wile until the home printers get to a quality equal to the pro units.
> 
> ...


I dont see the home tech being of sufficient resolution to produce the fine details we expect, but the thing i can agree on is that most people even when they have the tech available to them cant be arsed/afford/care enough about the game to bother to make there own models, its hard enough to get people to glue the things together and paint the models let alone put the effort in to cast them up or in this case reproduce them digitally.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> I dont see the home tech being of sufficient resolution to produce the fine details we expect, but the thing i can agree on is that most people even when they have the tech available to them cant be arsed/afford/care enough about the game to bother to make there own models, its hard enough to get people to glue the things together and paint the models let alone put the effort in to cast them up or in this case reproduce them digitally.


Maybe one day they will, I mean compare the first dot matrix printers to what we have today, but like you say there probably won't be sufficient demand to drive that forward at any great pace.

What I think more likely is that places like Shapeways will grow, particularly if they offer a customisation service. So from a basic 3D model of fixed price you can dictate the poses etc. 

That is quite a long way off tho' I think kits have an assured future for a fair while as, again as you have said, most of us want to be end users not manufacturers.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

I think 3D modellers will have a little more business when said printers follow all tech, by reducing in price, becoming more commonly available and getter better generally. Then get ready for some awsome 3D artists to start making some truly unbelievable models!! But I wouldn't worry about GW.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

+1 for tabbytomo

I couldn't agree more - tech always gets cheaper - and in the end there will be a need for these in the home - 25 years ago the thought of home - printing images was pretty much a pipe dream - as time moves on we have scanners / printers faxes in the home - while as has been stated there is a direct need for these - the same concept could be said of the the 3d printer.

it will start off specialist as it always does, and then there will be an open-source movement - as there always is and people will be printing handy doo-hickeys and thingmy bobs before you know it.

the key ingredient is cost - thats the printer and its (lack of a better term) 3d ink

once that reaches a certain point everyone will have one - infact I can already see combination units (2d and 3d combi printers) - it could be bundled with simple relief software that can make 3d Images from 2d pictures.

its all about selling this potential creativity to mass populous - the first start will be in schools, and then the home.

the thought you can download free objects from opensource sites means you could be printing cars / toys / dice / mechanical components - alsorts - the minds eye is the limit.

=)

Personally I can see me owning one within 10 years =D


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

GW use these for prototypeing their models, just thought id put that out there


and anyway, id love to have one of these


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## Marius_Ruberu (Feb 15, 2012)

Dont they have copy rights on their models. I mean if you were to buy somethings like that and cut your own models out wont GW have you in their grasps in a heart beat.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

if they found out maybe, but they say you can do anything with their IP so long as you dont make money out of it


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Insta-mold+properly priced green stuff=a 3d printer.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

while we idle over the idea of downloading designs from the internet to print, as well as develop our own... it wont be long before the unit could be coloured as it was produced - so in the near future you could down load and print out that 50th Aniversary golden whatever award Deamon / SM Diorama - already painted to the 'evy metal standard...

that would be cool!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Myself and many gamers are already considering or using Shapeways to make miniatures for wargaming so saying that 3d printing will have little impact on wargaming is incorrect.

I'm thinking since GW won't make them, creating and selling a whole line of plastic SoB would be rather nice, but finding the time to model them all would be the difficulty.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> I'm thinking since GW won't make them, creating and selling a whole line of plastic SoB would be rather nice, but finding the time to model them all would be the difficulty.


If they can't do 3D CAD then simply do a 3D scan and convert that to the printer blueprint. They could do it with their current range of models much in the same way they are making finecast moulds of all the SM stuff.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

That's not a bad idea actually. However I can't see it being actually done :/ 

If I get the time this summer I would really like to boot up Maya or Zbrush and start trying to make some plastic SoB parts.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Why not? It is a pretty much standard practise, I do it with industrial components quite regularly.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm not saying it would be difficult but love em or hate em it took GW around 10 years just to half rewrite a book and print it in a magazine. Sure they could scan the pewter models and make them in plastic or FC, or they could re-purpose the existing molds for plastic or FC, or they could even dig up the master sculpts if they still have them and remake the molds. I am guessing they did something along those lines to redo all the current FC models that are out there. But for some reason, when it comes to SoB, they just haven't :alcoholic:

If you do it regularly maybe _you_ could remake the units in plastic. 

Right now the best bet seems to be for someone like Scibor to start making a new line of female "Star Marines" or someone to digitally sculpt them and sell them through a 3d printer.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> If you do it regularly maybe _you_ could remake the units in plastic.
> 
> Right now the best bet seems to be for someone like Scibor to start making a new line of female "Star Marines" or someone to digitally sculpt them and sell them through a 3d printer.


LOL, ummm I 3D model 30 tonne gear cogs and things like that, 28mm figures are just a wee bit small scale for me !

I have actually just ordered 5 female Star Marines from Shapeways and will have a build log of them soon.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Awesome, can't wait to see how they turn out! They were a bit too _marine_ and not enough _sister_ imo.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Marine is how I like 'em, they will be Inquisitorial body guards in my GK army.


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## infernalcaretaker (Nov 12, 2008)

Now now guys, lets put this into perspective - I HAVE a 3D printer in my office, i work with it most days, and we are looking to but another which has twice the resolution 

Whilst it is extremely easy to model miniatures in CAD down to infinitesimal detail, the fact is that the printers we have currently just DO NOT have the resolution to create infantry to that level of detail.

Walkers, tanks and other vehicles, scenery, objective markers - all these things are possible - even components for vehicles (see my project log -The Adeptus Mechanicus Project) but not infantry.

Even with the advent of cheaper SLS systems, with more accurate lasers, i don't see the detail level being bought down to what you would consider 'acceptable' for tabletop use in the form of an infantry miniature - there will ALWAYS be surface texture of some sort - and even with an accuracy of 10-15 microns, they still won't be as good as an injection moulded piece of styrene 

With regard to open-source models - there were a number of GW 3D CAD models on Thingiverse, but GW got the humph and they were removed...

3D scanning - I also have access to a HD 3D laser scanner, and let me tell you, there is no such thing as 'just scanning', and it is in no way 'simple'!!! There is a metric tonne of post processing to be done before you can even get the model to look right, and then you have to manually convert it into a CAD file - there is no 'magic' go button, just hours, and hours of staring at a screen trying to get it right...

Here endeth the voice of experience...


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

First of all, let me say _*wow*_... pretty cool technology. Second, let me say I agree that it will take some time before the average person can afford to make use of this. 

Even when the costs do come down to purchase the copier for home use, how much will the powder & resin cost? ...and, how much powder and resin will get used up/how often will you have to refill the 3D printer when making something the size of a dread, ten man tac squad, or heaven forbid a baneblade or stompa? It's hard to imagine making cost effective copies will happen any time soon.

However, eventually the costs will come down. So, assuming that someday it does become cheaper to make 3D copies than to buy actual GW models, I can see it becoming a huge problem for Games Workshop. ...Want to field 6 dreads? No problem. Buy one and 3D copy it 5 times. Want to field 3 tac squads in rhinos? No problem. Buy one of each and copy away, etc. etc. etc. 

At that point, I could see GW loose a good deal of business, and there's really not much they could do about it as long as people were copying them for personal use and not for sale. I could see GW however, make special rules for official tourneys and such. Even if 3D printers manage to pull off identical copies visually, I imagine the weight will be off as resin is heavier than plastic. Simply by picking them up tournament organizers would be able to tell the difference.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

infernalcaretaker said:


> Now now guys, lets put this into perspective - I HAVE a 3D printer in my office, i work with it most days, and we are looking to but another which has twice the resolution
> 
> Whilst it is extremely easy to model miniatures in CAD down to infinitesimal detail, the fact is that the printers we have currently just DO NOT have the resolution to create infantry to that level of detail.
> 
> ...


what about cost? the tech itself isnt cheap, but what about the materials to print what does that run?


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## infernalcaretaker (Nov 12, 2008)

The printer I have is an FDM machine - it prints in ABS plastic.

The plastic itself costs are around £0.20 per cc - but there is also the support material to take into account (a similar price per cc) the build plate and the wash material to remove said support material. The best thing i can do is to give you a working example:

If you look a the components I created for my Project Log, the material costs were around £9 + consumables and time (4hrs). If this were a customer order, it would cost a _*lot*_ more - but you have to make a profit somewhere...:wink:


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

While it isn't for today, thing is - over time, costs come down - resolution goes' up

5 - 10 years and I suspect these will be easily available in the home and common place in high schools / colleges. With that there will be a boon of open source modelers from all walks - FPS Games / RPG Games making models in CAD software available for your printer - in fact there is already a massive scene for CAD model making - it just needs the right output.

There are plenty of plug-ins already avaialbe to make 3D reliefes of 2d Art and that could be an interesting selling poiint for at-home user that would like a 3D reliefe of buster the dog / daisy the cow or Tsumi the half-naked anime elf.

I can still see a viable business for GW Models as they are and if GW are smart enough they will look at a specialized printable kits that can be downloaded from their site as wella s purchased - kinda like the MP3 version of said model CD.

If tournaments start getting where you have to weigh your models in before you play - then that means the game is dead to me.... its not about the game then its about games workshop zealots ensuring that their holy god gets paid... there s a f**k you to them in that sentence somewhere!


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Zetronus said:


> While it isn't for today, thing is - over time, costs come down - resolution goes' up
> 
> 5 - 10 years and I suspect these will be easily available in the home and common place in high schools / colleges. With that there will be a boon of open source modelers from all walks - FPS Games / RPG Games making models in CAD software available for your printer - in fact there is already a massive scene for CAD model making - it just needs the right output.
> 
> ...


while i agree that could happen it still requires a real world demand, personal printers in the home with photo quality resolution only happened because people had PCs, digital cameras/camera phones and developing film was expensive and slow, and even then printer ink is one of the most expensive substances on the planet ml for ml.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> while i agree that could happen it still requires a real world demand, personal printers in the home with photo quality resolution only happened because people had PCs, digital cameras/camera phones and developing film was expensive and slow, and even then printer ink is one of the most expensive substances on the planet ml for ml.


And the prints you get out of a home printer are shit compared to a proper photographic reproduction.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> And the prints you get out of a home printer are shit compared to a proper photographic reproduction.


true enough,i took some photos of my little girl a few weeks ago when we took her for her celebration day with my SLR, we are having those printed professionally so we can hang them on the wall, other than that we do a few prints at home for relatives and albums.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> true enough,i took some photos of my little girl a few weeks ago when we took her for her celebration day with my SLR, we are having those printed professionally so we can hang them on the wall, other than that we do a few prints at home for relatives and albums.


Biggest problem is that ink jet inks aren't terribly light fast so they will fade over time. The toners that pro printers use do last a lot longer.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Sorry guys, 

I have been using a top end colour laser printers for the last 8 years - while they maybe more expensive to buy - the toner is nearly a tenth the price of inks - even 3rd parties and refills. not to mention no fade or no bleed 

While I agree demand and supply is a key market factor - there are many technologies that are marketed successfully without the expected demand - just look (or not) at that fit-inducing-widescreen-headaches known as 3D TV's - they seem to be selling well.

Personally I can see a demand in the home and especially more so when high-schools get them - not just arts / crafts / technical drawing - all this comes manifest with one of these devices.

saves bringing home a crappy clay mug-type thing..... instead as a young whippet one could bring up an nth dimensional object proving a non-euclidean postulate - knowing my luck though my parents would tell me off for not following proper geometry =(

Anyway again it does come down to price - so in an interim I can see shops like pronto-print offering 3D printing services on the high street if they don't already - companies offering fast - return prototyping of components for loss and non loss molding (this already happens in today's industry) - infact its the imagination that really limits the use of this technology.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Well it is certainly not prime time but there are starting to be things out there more and more. The quality is going to be bad right now though prices are coming down.

Some options for more info I've looked into. I haven't decided if I'm going to try any of them yet. I have lofty goals, but I know I don't have the time or ambition to follow through on them.

An alternative to 3D scanning for people to try:
http://www.123dapp.com/

Cheapest 3D printer I've seen:
http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=56

Possible extruder or just an indication there may be other options for material in the future:
http://filabot.com/

Again I don't own any of them or have any affiliation with them. The Autodesk one converting pictures into 3D scans has been around, but the others aren't true products yet.


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