# Chaos forces defecting to imperium?



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

We all know that Imperial forces regularly turn to chaos a lot and generally get accepted after declaring allegiances, but what about the other way around. Would it be possible fluffwise for a chaos force (perhaps unwilling slave army from an archenemy world) to be allowed to join and fight for the imperium with certain (non puritan) inquisition acceptance. Obviously certain ultra zealous factions wouldn't really draw strings on whether a chaos soldier is willing or unwilling to their cause. 

I imagine that when imperial forces take a chaos world they would generally only kill those who are 'tainted' in some way or another, but would also leave some of a population alive to rebuild an 'imperial' world. I don't think it would be feasible for the imperium to simply wipe out the population of every chaos held world they came across, it would also really limit some interesting fluff possibilities for some player armies to have a darker origin.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Thats actually exactly what happens in the Gaunts Ghosts novel Blood Pact.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Once a heretic, always a heretic.

There is never nor will there ever be a chance for a traitor to become loyal again.

The Badab War is a different story as Chaos was not the main factor of the war but rather political allegiances and philosophical differences.

@AoB: Care to elaborate?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_Malus_ is right. The Imperium willingly burns billions of innocents just to make sure, it would take a very exceptional situation for them to accept reformed heretics back into the fold. Of course there are likely exceptions to the rule, but general speaking the _"once a heretic always a heretic"_ rule is enforced (and for good reason).


----------



## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

There is obviously a precedence in the Imperium for such a thing. However, I would assume that there are some extremely, extremely, _extremely_ strict paramaters within which this would be allowed. For example, a high-ranking Human enemy general with knowledge that could bring about the end of an extremely violent and costly Crusade that is being fought across multiple star systems (ie, the general in _Blood Pact_) I would assume that if the general was possessed, or perhaps heavily physically corrupted by Chaos worship, there would be far less a chance of him/her/it being able to switch sides.

Dan Abnett's work certainly raises some interesting questions about Chaos societies. Up until reading _Blood Pact,_ I never really thought that there were star systems out there that worshipped Chaos and still functioned as societies. The picture we normally get of Chaos worshippers is one of a bunch of lunatics butchering the local population and raping a planet's resources until finally everyone and everything is dead. It does make one wonder...if there are cults dedicated to Khorne on an Imperial planet, does that mean there might not be 'heretics' dedicated to the Emperor on a planet that serves Chaos? And if so, would these loyalists be allowed some measure of mercy when the Imperium arrives?


----------



## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

I remember reading in White Dwarf an article mentioning a sourcerer of Tzeentch who comes to regret his descion to join Chaos after feeling "the death scream" of a planet through the Warp and, to hopefully quote the source "turned to the light of the Emperor" for redeption; he ends up piloting a whole ship into a Warp storm, killing himself and all the Chaos warriors on board, who had been bound for a warzone somewhere.

So I think Chaos followers can turn back to the Imperium, but they usually end up dying very soon- whether by the Imperial forces, their old comrades, or commiting suicide while destroying a large amount of Chaos forces, like in the story I mentioned.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Once a heretic, always a heretic.
> 
> There is never nor will there ever be a chance for a traitor to become loyal again.
> 
> ...


Without a doubt, goes without saying. The character in question will always be a heretic to the Imperium and never be accepted back within the fold, but he will be used until his worth expires or live out the rest of his life in a Inquisition holding cell should he survive the series(unlikely).

Essentially without trying to give anything vital away. A senior commander of the Blood Pact, for reasons still unknown defects back to the Imperium to help them in the Sabbat Crusades, giving them valuable intel in regard to the Blood Pact and Sons of Sek. Quite what his motives are haven't been fully divulged and some still believe he might be playing a triple agent or whatever your meant to call someone whose bluffing one side to bluff another whose bluffing another.

Ultimaetly like we all know, should he survive long enough, he will never be accepted back into the Imperium, no matter what heroics he achieves.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Imperial Armour seven mentions that after the seige of Vraks there was "tens of thousands of prisoner. All were now to be vetted by the Ordo Malleus interrogators. those found beyond redemption would face execution for their crimes. Others would find themselves shipped to far-flung penal colonies and work camps , there to aid the Emperor with their hard labour." p.86

This kind of goes back on the assumption that traitors are always executed, although they are not exactly allowed to be part of the Imperium.


----------



## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> Imperial Armour seven mentions that after the seige of Vraks there was "tens of thousands of prisoner. All were now to be vetted by the Ordo Malleus interrogators. those found beyond redemption would face execution for their crimes. Others would find themselves shipped to far-flung penal colonies and work camps , there to aid the Emperor with their hard labour." p.86
> 
> This kind of goes back on the assumption that traitors are always executed, although they are not exactly allowed to be part of the Imperium.


I can see this being the most likely but under close supervision a mutter of chaos and off to the incinerator you go. And probably worked to death anyway.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The fact is that the Imperium does not look kindly (putting it mildly, I know.) on those who have previously served Chaos, or those who have suffered under the yoke of chaos. After the 1st war of Armageddon the whole population were sent to concentration camps in case any of them were tainted. The whole planet was repopulated with off worlders. Something similar happened on Gereon in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels if I rememeber correctly.

The fact is that the taint of Chaos is so insidious that you can never be truely sure that somebody has been cleansed. It may appear that they are, they themselves may even think they are, and then years down the line they turn again and bite you on the ass.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The fact is that the taint of Chaos is so insidious that you can never be truely sure that somebody has been cleansed. It may appear that they are, they themselves may even think they are, and then years down the line they turn again and bite you on the ass.


I think it is clear whether or not someone is tainted especially with psychic interrogators but the beauty about it is that Chaos has frightened the Imperium so much that they will do the work for them by torturing, executing and accusing people even if they themselves are positive of their innocence.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

If i recall their was a saying in the 3rd ed rulebook in regards to this. 

paraphrasing it went "A heretic can be forgiven. he can see the error of his misguided ways and accept his deserved death and be judged by the emperor. For a traitor there can be no forgiveness, he is reviled and beyond redemption. There is nothing so vile as a traitor". 

So if you admit to being a heretic you could possible avoid an instant execution to serve some sort of penance. There would however be no true forgiveness and you would be fully expected to die in your service. This would i think, only apply to the lightest of heretical crimes, otherwise you would just be executed. 

But the Imperium would never accept those who had dealt with chaos. The danger is too high, the risks too severe. The Imperium cleanses millions of innocents who have just seen evidence of Chaos, purges regiments who have fought against it. There's no way they're allowing ex chaos worshippers or even those who just came into contact with chaos into the Imperial fold.


----------



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

A battle sister would accept a follower of chaos back into the ranks of the imperium. Then they would save their soul for rejoining the imperium and then kill them. The differences is if your in the good graces of the IoM when you die or not.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The Emperor's mercy is a round to the head. The Emperor's judgement can only be recieved in death. Everything else is a gruesome slaughter. I guess for most of us it's implied but maybe they should add in the begining "Oh by the way, there's no forgivness in the stars as well."


----------



## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

Am i right in saying alot of the inqusition themselves are on the edge of conversion to chaos. Often without even knowing it???

Who manages and judges the inquisition?


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

They eventually get caught. They are there own oversight pretty much. Not all of them are on the verge as they all approach they work from different ideological view points.The radicals are usually the ones getting wasted for going to far into the ether.


----------



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

stevey293 said:


> Am i right in saying alot of the inqusition themselves are on the edge of conversion to chaos. Often without even knowing it???
> 
> Who manages and judges the inquisition?


They pretty much manage themselves. It's sort of like a Machiavellian society, where power is shared amongst them so each keeps the others in check. This is very loose though, as they're spread out amongst the galaxy and its hard to keep track of them all, all the time,

I wouldn't say a lot are on the edge of conversion, but there's a lot of radicals or people on the path to becoming radicals. As stated in the Eisenhorn books, a radical Inquisitor is one who believes Chaos can be used to defeat itself, and that's the only real way to beat it. (Similar to the Relictors chapter of SM). E.g., Use of Daemonhosts, Chaos weaponry, forbidden magicks etc.

One of the characters in Eisenhorn actually tells him point blank that he will stop being a Purist (Purist = Inquisitor who is very strict about right/wrong, holds up the law _to the letter_, etc ) and eventually become a Radical, and that all Inquisitors eventually become Radicals because they see first hand how devious and manipulative Chaos is, and that it's the only real way to fight it. The end justifies the means - it doesn't matter how you beat, Chaos, so long you beat it. On the other hand of course, the road to damnation is paved with good intentions. Radical Inquisitors walk a very, very fine line, and many fall off and go rogue.

Another good example, but please dont read unless you have read the books.


Eisenhorn goes after a former colleague who's gone rouge, and eventually catches up to him. He finds out that this Inquisitor is actually building a huge doomsday style of weapon using Chaos that would pretty much destroy the warp, but cost countless humans lives in the explosion of sorts, and everything around the warp would be killed.

Eisenhorn stops him, but it's worth noting this is when he was very much a Purist. His former colleague had gone totally rogue, and believed the end justified the means, that destroying the warp would save humanity in the long run. Eisenhorn doesn't believe the loss of life is worth it, but I wonder if the later, more Radical Eisenhorn would have stopped him.


The Inquisition is my favourite part of the 40K universe :biggrin:


----------



## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> Imperial Armour seven mentions that after the seige of Vraks there was "tens of thousands of prisoner. All were now to be vetted by the Ordo Malleus interrogators. those found beyond redemption would face execution for their crimes. Others would find themselves shipped to far-flung penal colonies and work camps , there to aid the Emperor with their hard labour." p.86
> 
> This kind of goes back on the assumption that traitors are always executed, although they are not exactly allowed to be part of the Imperium.


If I recall correctly, most of the people involved in Vraks defecting from the Imperium did not owe their allegiance to chaos, but rather to the people who payed the checks. The leaders, and anyone who was involved in a chaos cult was executed, while the common soldiers and population were sent to penal colonies and work camps.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Its 40k common sense kinda goes out the window when talking about real life issues in war, after all besides the work of some ground breaking authors in the genre there is almost never any sympathy for chaos worshiper/traitor/renegades/free thinker. In fact in more then one book people have been murdered or tortured to death because the local leadership just doesn't like them, and then later brands them traitors to justify the slaughter.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The only person who can give forgivness is the Emperor. Since he's not in the physical realm anymore the Imperium doesn't feel it's place is to offer forgivness. Especially after the Heresy almost tore it apart. The truth is that they'll kill innocents just to make sure they aren't tainted. As for traitors and renegades who try and come back they are usually given suicide missions or just put down. It's a one way door. Once you walk out there's no real way back in.


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> I remember reading in White Dwarf an article mentioning a sourcerer of Tzeentch who comes to regret his descion to join Chaos after feeling "the death scream" of a planet through the Warp and, to hopefully quote the source "turned to the light of the Emperor" for redeption; he ends up piloting a whole ship into a Warp storm, killing himself and all the Chaos warriors on board, who had been bound for a warzone somewhere.
> 
> So I think Chaos followers can turn back to the Imperium, but they usually end up dying very soon- whether by the Imperial forces, their old comrades, or commiting suicide while destroying a large amount of Chaos forces, like in the story I mentioned.


Dead Sky Black Sun has another example of that, with monstrous Beastmen who live on an Iron Warriors world, and fervently worship the Emperor.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They weren't beastmen, they were Iron Warrior rejects if I recall correctly.


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They weren't beastmen, they were Iron Warrior rejects if I recall correctly.


They were rejects, but IIRC some of them had animal features and whatnot.

Edit: The unfleshed correct?


----------



## Demon Prince (Sep 29, 2011)

I think it would be possible for some to join the Imperium once again, but some like the Death Guard, World Eaters, ect.. would most likely die or have gone insane with bloodlust. Plus if the planet has been to tainted by chaos I heard they purge the entire planet.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Imperial commanders that fail in some situations are compelled to give their lives.To betray the imperium isn't some secular act. This is a religious afront against their God you've comitted. There is no forgivness in life you can recieve. Ask the Assassinorum,only in death can you be forgiven. The Emperor's Mercy is a round to the head. It's a one way street from what I've read.


----------



## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Depends on the circumstances. If you're part of a large defecting force, expect to be herded up in front of a Hellhound. Small groups are often interrogated, then tortured until they repent, then executed.

Ironically, unrepentant heretics captured by Imperial forces stand the best chance of living to next week. If they cannot be 'saved' they're often put to use, either aboard starships or in penal colonies. Fluff often mentions battleship guns being retracted for Warp travel, and pushed back into position by immense gangs of slave heretics and abhumans. The overall vibe is that those who do not repent do not deserve the mercy of death, and are punished for so long as they live. That includes things like 'removal' of any visible mutations or heretical markings, regular torture sessions (some 'merciful' priests may believe you can still be coerced into repenting) and living on the very edge of starvation.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The "Fallen" who were captured by the Dark Angels occasionally repent. Of course, they then get executed for their crimes, but they still repented.

The populace of the Maelstrom were welcomed back to the Imperium after following Huron - admittedly not initially into chaos but rather into secession, but they are still traitors. Of course ,they then recieve 3 generations indentured penal legion service for the entire planet.


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

In Eisenhorn, the main character, towards the end of the series, could be described as an agent of Chaos, but continues to do work for the Imperium. So, yes, an agent of chaos could fight on the side of righteousness. However, if the imperium or specifically, the inquisition, were to find out, they'd be destroyed without hesitation.

The Soul Drinkers are another case where tainted forces have continued to fight for the good of mankind, albeit through their twisted vision of the universe.


----------



## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

it's been a while since i read the blood angels omnibus, but didn't a portion of the blood angels turn traitor when they thought Arkio was Sanguinius reborn? didnt they kill some of their fellow blood angels? they weren't all wiped out, at the end it said they would be given the opportunity to prove their loyalty to the imperium. they may not have thought they were traitor at the time, but then again horus thought he was doing the right thing also. thoughts?


----------



## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

Luther turned to Chaos and was never done in, plus i think that when Cypher get to his destination he has a part to play on chaos and side switching, there is a slight grey area onlt really beacsue Luther a top ranker who was more than taintedwith Chaos was never executed but is hiddin away,


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm pretty sure his 10k imprisonment isn't any kind of forgivness as they've been torturing him to get him to repent before they blow his brains out. The only reason they haven't is because he's refused to do so due to his babbling of only the Lion being able to forgive him. Good luck holding for them to progress the Cypher storyline. I honestly think the goal of the black library now is destroy as much fluff as they can making everything you've read pointless before budging the story an inch. By the time they're finished Cypher will be a reality star who is trying to stop her sex tape from getting to Chaos worshippers.


----------



## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Ultra1 said:


> it's been a while since i read the blood angels omnibus, but didn't a portion of the blood angels turn traitor when they thought Arkio was Sanguinius reborn? didnt they kill some of their fellow blood angels? they weren't all wiped out, at the end it said they would be given the opportunity to prove their loyalty to the imperium. they may not have thought they were traitor at the time, but then again horus thought he was doing the right thing also. thoughts?


I guess 2 factors need to be considered for the BA Incident. 

1) They believed their father reborn - not that the father was wrong and wanted to conquer the universe. 

2) Those that did survive were given a chance for penance because even Mepheston (could be spelt wrong) was fooled initially and it's like protected the man you believe to be your father. Well after the incident, the Ba were severely undermanned and so they needed all the brother they can get.


Personally, I kinda like the NL's with painting their gauntlets red. I think that is bad ass and a fair treatment.


----------



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Chaos turning back to the Imperium doesn't exsist, they _cannot_ go back. Once the gods of chaos have a hold on you there is no escape, the Imperium of man doesn't take chaos prisoners either.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> the Imperium of man doesn't take chaos prisoners either.


Except that they do. It's already been mentioned in this thread I believe but the Gaunt's Ghosts books have a Blood Pact general who turns back to the Imperium and is taken prisoner and interrogatted.


----------



## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

MEANWHILE, AT A INQUISITORIAL FORTRESS


Xanthites. Phaenonites, Horusians, Istvaanians and all of the different radical factions use Chaos defectors and or Chaos agents all the time. People forget that Chaos isn't just made up of OH MY WE ARE SO VAST AND COSMIC THAT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND US type Gods or I AM SO ANGRY THAT I CONSTANTLY YELL AND I AM BETTER THAN MOST SPEZ MUHREENZ Chaos Astartes. It's also not all sinister OH LOOK AT ME I AM ANOTHER GENERIC ARCH HERETIC THAT IS ALL DUBIOUS AND STUFF. The Ruinous Powers have countless slaves, minions, militias, etc. While they are undeniably tainted by the Warp and Chaos I don't see it being impossible for them to defect. Unless that defector is extremely valuable to a certain Inquisitor's plans or his faction even radicals will stick them in a cell and torture them for information.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think you've misread this thread. The guys asking if you can go back to being a good imperial after dipping into chaos. The inquisitorial factions you mentioned use these guys as assets and weapons. You think they let them take vacations and invite them to tea party's? Ovcourse not, they are kept under lock spell and key so to speak. Their imprisonment is a torture in itself. That's not forgviness.When we capture traitorous terrorists and interrogate them for info, that's not us saying "hey man it's cool now." In closing you can't turn back. You can be utllized as a source of info or power by radicals but as soon as you stop being useful they'll do what everyone else in the Imperium will do, put a round in your head.


----------

