# Star wars vs Imperium



## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

In relation to a tpic I read earlier, about SMs being superior to Jedi. I just want to knw what youd think about SM vs Clone troopers. Or maybe guard vs droids. My opinion is Imperium all the way cause although their ar similarities like bred especially for battle, constantly waring etc etc but SMs armour is far better. Droids are just very dum but that's equivalent to some guard but not all _plus_ droids have shit tanks!


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

The Imperium outnumbers any of the star wars stuff a few million to one.

star destroyers are big but not that big and what does the star wars world have against titans?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Hellados said:


> The Imperium outnumbers any of the star wars stuff a few million to one.
> 
> star destroyers are big but not that big and what does the star wars world have against titans?


Snow Speeders,:biggrin: pull a AT-AT trip


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I don't think anybody would say that in an out and out war that star wars would beat the Imperium. The Imperium's war machine's are far more destructive than anything SW has. Jedi's vs SM is plausible but this would be a slaughter.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

You do need quite a lot of Clones to stop a Astarte. The bolter would shred entire squads to pieces in short bursts. Clone armor is no match for bolters. 

And startships? A battlebarge would eat a Venerator class star destroyer for break fest.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Gee, asking who would win Star Wars or the Imperium on 40k board. No prizes for guessing what the majority of answers are going to be like.

Ask the same question on a Star Wars board and three guesses to what their answers will be like.

Go on a neutral forum to get the best answer..


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

But we are saying the truth. Its not exactly as if the Imperium even needed to land any troops to the ground to capture the galaxy. Star Wars space ships are like nothing compared to Imperial Warships. The Imperium could in one savage strike bring down _Open Circle Fleet_ without much worries. Heck, when General Grievous assaulted Coruscant during the final days of the Clone Wars, he brought with him at least a 1000 destroyers and presumably a similar, if not larger amount of frigates, and the combined forces of "Coruscant Home Fleet" and "Open Circle Fleet" had problems fending them off. Then comes a Emperor Class Frigate, says fuck you and start bombarding the warships with large salvos of nuclear warheads and all that. And fuck, if we are in a hurry we will just send a small "diplomatic" frigate into the middle of the fleet and detonate its warp drives. Solved. 

The Imperium would wipe the board.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Yeah, take this for example
Super Star Destroyer >Emperor Battleship, that is fine, we all agree, but
Entire Imperial Navy Fleet > Super Star Destroyer and every other SW ship
No contest 

Has anyone seen the firepower of the Imperium? Nova Cannons will take down every Star Wars ship out there. Abaddon the Despoiler has a Planetkiller that is more powerful than the death star, which is the Empire's most powerful war machine. Jesus, i mean even the Dark Reaper weapon used by the sith would be crippled by the Titan Legions. The fact is that the Imperium is built solely for war, and would flatten anything in their way with sheer mass of firepower.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> But we are saying the truth.


No, what you are saying is simply your bias. I can go out and get links to similar debates on Star Wars and Star Trek forums saying the exact opposite.



Doelago said:


> Its not exactly as if the Imperium even needed to land any troops to the ground to capture the galaxy. Star Wars space ships are like nothing compared to Imperial Warships. The Imperium could in one savage strike bring down _Open Circle Fleet_ without much worries. Heck, when General Grievous assaulted Coruscant during the final days of the Clone Wars, he brought with him at least a 1000 destroyers and presumably a similar, if not larger amount of frigates, and the combined forces of "Coruscant Home Fleet" and "Open Circle Fleet" had problems fending them off. Then comes a Emperor Class Frigate, says fuck you and start bombarding the warships with large salvos of nuclear warheads and all that. And fuck, if we are in a hurry we will just send a small "diplomatic" frigate into the middle of the fleet and detonate its warp drives. Solved.
> 
> The Imperium would wipe the board.


Go to go to SpaceBattles. They will rip you a new one. Seriously, go do it. It will be hilarious.

If you want a debate between two universes then do it on an objective board like Spacebattles. Otherwise it's just chest thumping in favor of your fandom.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I ain`t going anywhere. I am not talking fanboyness to any side here. I am an equal fan boy to both universes, but I am of the sole opinion that the Imperium would do nothing short than flatten the puny lazors the people in Star Wars are so attached to. 

As a matter of fact, you really underestime the power of the Imperium there if you try to claim that the SW universe would stand a chance.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> I ain`t going anywhere. I am not talking fanboyness to any side here. I am an equal fan boy to both universes, but I am of the sole opinion that the Imperium would do nothing short than flatten the puny lazors the people in Star Wars are so attached to.
> 
> As a matter of fact, you really underestime the power of the Imperium there if you try to claim that the SW universe would stand a chance.


I claim nothing supporting either side yet. I'm simply pointing out the futility of asking a question on a board that is naturally going to be biased to one side. This board is naturally filled with 40k fans.

I mean, your argument is riddled with errors but I'm not going to bother arguing against you because this is a 40k forum and the outcome of the debate is a pre-decided outcome. Arguing otherwise would be an uphill battle.

If you want a true, objective debate against SW fans who are well versed in both series then go to a neutral forum and do that. Otherwise it's just an ego-stroking exercise for your fandom. I know places that would take apart your arguments and _annihilate_ it completely.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Gree said:


> Otherwise it's just an ego-stroking exercise for your fandom.


Wait, fuck? You make it sound like I am a 40k fanboy with no limits. Did I not mention that I am a Star Wars fanboy, at least to the same amount as I am a 40k fanboy, if not past it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Wait, fuck? You make it sound like I am a 40k fanboy with no limits. Did I not mention that I am a Star Wars fanboy, at least to the same amount as I am a 40k fanboy, if not past it.


I know people who claim they are equal fans of 40k and Star Wars who would claim with absolute certainty that Star Wars would win. No offense, but your statements don't provide much reassurance.

That and my statement there was directed to the fandom in general. In a place that's naturally going to be filled with 40k fans a non-biased discussion is impossible. I could argue against you, but it would be a uphill battle in this forum.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Gree said:


> I know people who claim they are equal fans of 40k and Star Wars who would claim with absolute certainty that Star Wars would win. No offense, but your statements don't provide much reassurance.


Fuck, in Star Wars the republic has problems brining down an army of robots that cant think by themselves. The Star Wars galaxy is NOT used to war. How old is the clone army anyway? The Clone Wars last for, what? 3 years. 

The Imperium of Man has waged a constant war for 10,000 years. It has waged war against things that could have brought the entire Star Wars universe down to its knees. It is a cold fact. There is nothing to argue about here.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Fuck, in Star Wars the republic has problems brining down an army of robots that cant think by themselves. The Star Wars galaxy is NOT used to war. How old is the clone army anyway? The Clone Wars last for, what? 3 years.
> 
> The Imperium of Man has waged a constant war for 10,000 years. It has waged war against things that could have brought the entire Star Wars universe down to its knees. It is a cold fact. There is nothing to argue about here.


No, that is just your interpretation. Not cold fact by any means. There are many EU sources I could use to tear apart your arguments. BY the standards of veteran sci-fi forums like Spacebattles your argument is laughable and filled with generalizations.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

... :suicide:

Fucking provide me with ONE source.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Fuck, in Star Wars the republic has problems brining down an army of robots that cant think by themselves. The Star Wars galaxy is NOT used to war. How old is the clone army anyway? The Clone Wars last for, what? 3 years.
> 
> The Imperium of Man has waged a constant war for 10,000 years. It has waged war against things that could have brought the entire Star Wars universe down to its knees. It is a cold fact. There is nothing to argue about here.


You mean like Necrons or Nids? Clones are bread from exceptional stock and trained only for war. They are not push overs. Not used to war? Like fuck.

Fact? They are both fictional fucking universes; there are no facts in a debate on who would win.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> ... :suicide:
> 
> Fucking provide me with ONE source.


I would, but what's the point in this kind of setting? It's an uphill battle. I could give you the technical cross sections, or source the Death Star novel, Dark Empire or the various roleplaying sources for the amount of battle droids and for more detailed information on CIS military capacity.

But I won't, seeing as arguing for SW on a 40k forum is an uphill battle. Not as bad as arguing for SW on a Star Trek forums (God help your soul if you dare and try that with trekkies.) but still pretty bad.

I mean, I'm not even the best one to argue SW. Their are guys on Spacebattles who have all sorts of technical calcs and have information and the most obscure Expanded Universe sources to counter your arguments.

But regardless I tend to not get involved in versus debates anymore concerning cross-fandom debates. Too much frustration and stress.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Gree said:


> I would, but what's the point in this kind of setting?


See? There we got it. You could not support your own argument, instead you reverted to "blah, blah, blah", those guys "blah, blah, blah". 

This argument just got so retarded, a bit like the last one I entered, that I ain`t gona even check this thread again.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Gree said:


> I know people who claim they are equal fans of 40k and Star Wars who would claim with absolute certainty that Star Wars would win. No offense, but your statements don't provide much reassurance.
> 
> That and my statement there was directed to the fandom in general. In a place that's naturally going to be filled with 40k fans a non-biased discussion is impossible. I could argue against you, but it would be a uphill battle in this forum.


Why, if you had the same love for both, would you naturally assume Star Wars would win? If you are going to be logical, The Republic created around two million clones to begin with, give or take, constantly reinforcing them. So lets say there ended up being 10 million storm troopers. And lets throw another 100 million army members in as well for good measure. That is about the strength of a single Imperial Guard army. Granted, they wouldn't assemble at once, but given that there are upwards of 300 billion imp guard soldiers and probably around one - two million space marines, backed by the inquisistion, titans, navy and ecclesiarchy, i think there is no contest.
I have loved star wars since i was four years old, it got me into sci-fi. I honestly believe that the Imperium is a superior fighting force, given the resources at their disposal and the fact that the Galactic Empire is nowhere near the size of the imperium.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> Why, if you had the same love for both, would you naturally assume Star Wars would win? If you are going to be logical, The Republic created around two million clones to begin with, give or take, constantly reinforcing them. So lets say there ended up being 10 million storm troopers. And lets throw another 100 million army members in as well for good measure. That is about the strength of a single Imperial Guard army. Granted, they wouldn't assemble at once, but given that there are upwards of 300 billion imp guard soldiers and probably around one - two million space marines, backed by the inquisistion, titans, navy and ecclesiarchy, i think there is no contest.
> I have loved star wars since i was four years old, it got me into sci-fi. I honestly believe that the Imperium is a superior fighting force, given the resources at their disposal and the fact that the Galactic Empire is nowhere near the size of the imperium.


You nailed it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Doelago said:


> See? There we got it. You could not support your own argument, instead you reverted to "blah, blah, blah", those guys "blah, blah, blah".


I could, I just see the argument as pointless. I support neither side, but I ridicule the thought of arguing on a biased forum.



mcmuffin said:


> Why, if you had the same love for both, would you naturally assume Star Wars would win?


I assume nothing. I support nethier side. I think arguing this debate on a 40k forum is pointless. Just as it would be on a Star Wars fourm.

Go to a Star Wars forum and argue this. Let's see how long you last.



mcmuffin said:


> If you are going to be logical, The Republic created around two million clones to begin with, give or take, constantly reinforcing them. So lets say there ended up being 10 million storm troopers. And lets throw another 100 million army members in as well for good measure. That is about the strength of a single Imperial Guard army. Granted, they wouldn't assemble at once, but given that there are upwards of 300 billion imp guard soldiers and probably around one - two million space marines, backed by the inquisistion, titans, navy and ecclesiarchy, i think there is no contest.


There is just so much wrong with this argument I don't know where even to begin.

I mean, you already got figures for 40k wrong (It being repeatedly stated in the fluff that theatre is only 1 million Marines in the galaxy, anything beyond that is impossible)


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Gree said:


> I could, I just see the argument as pointless. I support neither side, but I ridicule the thought of arguing on a biased forum.
> 
> Well, if it is pointless, why continue to respond then?
> 
> ...


Characters


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I can't help but think of a Librarian unleashing fear of the darkness on jar jar binks.

DO YOU SEE JAR JAR!!! DO YOU SEE!!!! YOU FRANCHISE RUINING FUCKTARD!!!!


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

First of all McMuffin please try not to respond like that. It's hard for me to quote you and respond back.



> Well, if it is pointless, why continue to respond then?


Because people are directing posts are me obviously. I always answer posts directed to me.



> Well why do you consistently argue in favour of star wars then?


I don't. I argue for an objective debate and setting.



> you seem to be leaning on simple fanboyism rather than cold hard fluff. Provide some evidence that Star Wars Would win please.


I would, on a neutral forum and setting rather than in a biased uphill battle as I have explained before.

And how can I rely on fanboyism when I am not supporting any side at all?



> well please grace us by beginning somewhere instead of stating something and not backing it up


I don't want to begin an argument favoring either side simply because I already know the outcome regardless of my arguments and that was not my intention.

I could, I just see the argument as pointless. I support neither side, but I ridicule the thought of arguing on a biased forum.

If you want to argue then I can direct you to neutral forums and counter your arguments there. Arguing here is pointless in my view.



> riiiiiight. hence, i stated 1 - 2 million, encompassing any small adjustments and fluctuations. there are around 1000 chapters. ok. great. some chapters like SW, DA and black templars consist of more than 1000 marines, meaning there is more than one million. Anyway, even without that many marines, one titan would flatten an entire Stormtrooper company, so what would the full might of the imperium, considering that one marine could probably take on around 50+ Stormtroopers between boltering them and hacking them to pieces, i would say they could go upwards of 100 stormtroopers dead.


This is the exact reason why I don't bother with vs debates anymore.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

There's only one race in star wars that would pwn imperial forces on foot and that's Ewoks. Those guys are tough. They beat the 501st to be fair.

Then some random imperial cruiser would virus bomb endor and move on.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

*Sigh* :no: this thread is going nowhere, and i am finding it difficult to have a good debate here seeing as nothing is actually being provided to argue over.
:no:


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I think it's been settled that star wars wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This debat is fucking pointless for 3 reasons.

1) The OP gave 2 accounts of no brainer situations.
2) Most of the people on this forum have little knowledge on SW books/novels/games.
3) Truth is Imperium (SM/Inquisiton/IG/Mechanicus) would crush the Republic as it was byitself. Numbers overwhelm them. 

Now if your talking about Seperatest, Jedi, Sith, Republic, and all the Alien Allies from the Clone Wars.... well the Imperium will have to try as the numbers game really doesnt play a factor anymore.
Seriously the World Engine caused a whole Chapter to kill themselves, and it still brought down a huge fleet in thre process. You know what they call the World Engine in SW? Death Star.. and SW has 2 of them with plans to build more. Super Star Destroyer was 1 of the many to come SDs... beats Battle Barges with Strike Cruisers hands down. Luke Skywalker smashes 2 planets together.... Goodbye Cadia and Armegeddon. As you can see the Imperium has its work cut out for them.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

This has been done

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14132&highlight=Star+Wars

38 pages worth of debate. Enjoy.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> I assume nothing. I support nethier side.


See you say this, claiming complete neutrality. Then you go on to say things like:



Gree said:


> Go to go to SpaceBattles. They will rip you a new one. Seriously, go do it. It will be hilarious.





Gree said:


> I mean, your argument is riddled with errors but I'm not going to bother arguing against you...
> I know places that would take apart your arguments and _annihilate_ it completely.


Which is basically saying Star Wars would win because of...?



Gree said:


> Their are guys on Spacebattles who have all sorts of technical calcs and have information and the most obscure Expanded Universe sources to counter your arguments.


And this, which states Star Wars would win because some people have done some serious calculations about the capabilities of Star Wars stuff. Because people definitely haven`t done that for 40k.



> There is just so much wrong with this argument I don't know where even to begin.


You know what`s a good way to hold(/win) a debate? Dismiss the other sides argument completely and provide no reasoning for it. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Now if your talking about Seperatest, Jedi, Sith, Republic, and all the Alien Allies from the Clone Wars.... well the Imperium will have to try as the numbers game really doesnt play a factor anymore.


See Gree? This is how you hold a debate. You make points favouring one side or the other (heresy I know) and then the other side critiques those points. It`s a back and forth thing.

Also, while I am admittedly not as big on Star Wars as I am on 40k, the maps I have seen of the Star Wars universes suggest that it is somewhat smaller than ours (as parts of it appear to be unused). Further the Imperium devotes entire planets to nothing but war and I have yet to see a similar focus in the Star Wars empires. This means that the Imperium still has a size advantage even over the entirety of the Star Wars galaxy.



> Seriously the World Engine caused a whole Chapter to kill themselves, and it still brought down a huge fleet in thre process. You know what they call the World Engine in SW? Death Star.. and SW has 2 of them with plans to build more.


In addition to the World Engine (which destroyed 1 of roughly 1000 Chapters) 40k posses the Blackstone Fortresses (9 I believe), the Planet Killer, the Phalanx, the Rock, Ramillises class Star forts and so on.



> SDs... beats Battle Barges with Strike Cruisers hands down.


I`m not certain where you are getting this from. Battlebarges and other 40k capital ships rival SSDs for size and generally out-range them, which is a huge advantage in what is basically naval combat. 



> Luke Skywalker smashes 2 planets together.... Goodbye Cadia and Armegeddon.


Luke`s good (apparently, didn`t see that coming after the movies) but I`d like to see his special cells survive the Life Eater. The thing is that 40k, and the Imperium in particular, is all about sacrifice for the greater gain. If I (as an Imperial commander, god forbid) have to throw 200 ships with virus bombs on them at Luke so that 1 makes it through it`ll be done, and Luke is probably a far bigger loss to Star Wars than those 200 ships. 



> As you can see the Imperium has its work cut out for them.


It`s probably not a cakewalk but 40k is a galaxy at war. Every single human (and there are more in 40k than in Star Wars) is willing to lay down their life to defeat the enemy. Every single soldier in the Guard fights for his God and his species long before he fights for his life. I don`t think Star Wars can match that kind of fanaticism or those kinds of numbers.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Considering that most basic troopers can't hit with 90% of their shots, and even Orks can connect with at least 33%, I think the 40k-verse has a much better chance. :victory:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Also, while I am admittedly not as big on Star Wars as I am on 40k, the maps I have seen of the Star Wars universes suggest that it is somewhat smaller than ours (as parts of it appear to be unused). Further the Imperium devotes entire planets to nothing but war and I have yet to see a similar focus in the Star Wars empires. This means that the Imperium still has a size advantage even over the entirety of the Star Wars galaxy.


Ahh a true Debate this has become. When comparing 40k Galaxy to SWs I have never seen any chart for SW ever yet. A link if you have would be neat. With races like Nids, Orks and Man I dont see how SW can match those at all in any way if every 40k race numbers vs SW any race numbers. However I feel this is about Imperium as Necs, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Nids, and Man DO NOT ever work together in anything larger than a skirmish. Other hand SW has a huge advantage in the fact its a more Civil Galaxy and the races have every reason to work together and do. In case of Just the Imperium that makes up half the 40k verse vs everyone involved in the Clone Wars and Rebellion/Empire battle that took place right after have a great chance.




MEQinc said:


> In addition to the World Engine (which destroyed 1 of roughly 1000 Chapters) 40k posses the Blackstone Fortresses (9 I believe), the Planet Killer, the Phalanx, the Rock, Ramillises class Star forts and so on.


The World Engine decimated a battle fleet and the Chapter made a last ditch effort to destroy it. I believe it was like more than 10 SM task forces deployed against it along with a huge chunk of the Imperial Navy, and a third of that Imperial Navy was destroyed. It did way more damage than 1 of 1000 chapters destroyed. Also the Deathstars have whole Destroyer Groups with it and huge supply of Ties (which are like bees and as fragile, but in a swarm..) that can take out other ships. Planet Killer is crap. Powerful but not very Space Ship battle worthy. Phalanx is tough but still dwarf by a Super Star Destroyer. Star Forts are great, but not exactly fly around in space battles, and Ive seen them taken out by a simple Ship ramming (WB novels Dark Creed). The Blackstone Fortresses dont work in Imperial hands..... their aw some in Eldar hands, not Imperials....

http://sciencefictionmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/space_comparison_chart_huge.jpg

Heres a Chart that is based on the sizes various SCI FI material. 40k ships biggest hitters are stated around 5000 meters. Trade Federation Ships are over 3000. Its not that bigs of a size difference from Star Wars biggest to 40k average biggest. Calamari Cruisers are near 4000 meters. 

Also contrary to popular belief Star War Ships Turbo Laser Batteries are pretty destructive. The Laser is closer than say Cyclone Torpedo's. However many Star Wars Laser batteries are design to shoot down those said threats. Then you have Ion Cannons that can (and will) disable 40K ships with a few hits at a LONG range so they can get closer for the destructive Turbo Lasers. This is not including the Ion Pulse that disables every ship caught in its range, multiple ships down for a time. 
Thats not including the Tie Bombers, Y-Wings, B-Wings, X-Wings, etc type craft that have Proton Torpedo's that thru mass fire will be as effective. These also come in Planet Barrage/Ship Killer size. They are also Long Rage, shielded from being shot down, and tracking like a smart missile.
Laser Cannons
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laser_cannon
Turbo Lasers
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser
Ion Cannons
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ion_cannon
Proton Torpedo's
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Proton_torpedo

May not seem as cool as nuclear warheads but they are way more efficient than anything from 40k space ships shy of the Orbital Bombardment.




MEQinc said:


> I`m not certain where you are getting this from. Battlebarges and other 40k capital ships rival SSDs for size and generally out-range them, which is a huge advantage in what is basically naval combat.


Look at the chart. The SSD is 3 times bigger than anything 40k has ever shown... even the silly Phalanx.



MEQinc said:


> Luke`s good (apparently, didnt`t see that coming after the movies) but I`d like to see his special cells survive the Life Eater. The thing is that 40k, and the Imperium in particular, is all about sacrifice for the greater gain. If I (as an Imperial commander, god forbid) have to throw 200 ships with virus bombs on them at Luke so that 1 makes it through it`ll be done, and Luke is probably a far bigger loss to Star Wars than those 200 ships.


Life eater is no threat. If Space Marines on the ground can withstand the full force of it (Galaxy in Flames) then Luke has no problem. None. Also this is not including other UBER force wielders like Star Killer.



MEQinc said:


> It`s probably not a cakewalk but 40k is a galaxy at war. Every single human (and there are more in 40k than in Star Wars) is willing to lay down their life to defeat the enemy. Every single soldier in the Guard fights for his God and his species long before he fights for his life. I don`t think Star Wars can match that kind of fanaticism or those kinds of numbers.


You say its a Galaxy at war... like it means something. I'm sorry it dont. Look at the Middle East, North Korea, Africa.... ALL OF THEM ARE ALWAYS AT WAR. Constant War... yet their tech and military capabilities SUCK! SW has very efficient and stabilize tech. 40k is literally mid-evil dogma tech. It doesnt match up. Hell the reliance on the warp is a handicap. SW has Necron tech compared to 40k. Examples are Navigators are needed to guide thru the warp, and even then WHOLE fleets are lost in travel. Anyone remember the Firehawk Chapter... Anyone? Also the only way they can communicate is via Astropath... SW broadcast across the galaxy no problem and no interference from the warp. 40k is at a disadvantage in tech.



Well thats enough info throwing from me.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

"-Hi my argument is that star wars rules, and i'm not biased!"
"-Yes you are biased, i say 40k rules, and i'm biased!"
"-I'm not biased at all!"
"-Yes you are, for i am biased... i mean not biased..."
"-40k would win, but star wars are better."

Shut up all of you, none of the arguments are good and this is the third SW vs 40k on this page.

In an all out war the only people who would loose are the fans since george lucas and GW would steal all your money.

Both sides are bringing up the worst instances of the other sides fluff.
I could bring up the ultramarines movie, then an Ewok truly beats up the ultrasmurfs with their hands, for in ultramarines space marines suck.

And starkiller would use his force powers to shoot planets at each others, yadda yadda.
The emperor would wake up and kill everything in the galaxy with his mind pulse yadda yadda.

See, i can also make up stuff? Isn't it wonderful!


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

How each race could beat Star Wars, at original trilogy times since that's the nearest to the Imperium at the current point in the fluff.
Imperium: Let's assume bladders in the SW universe have the same stats as your common lasgun. Stormtroopers go down to them all the time. Now imagine a chapter of SM. Stormtroopers would barely be able to hit them, let alone kill them.
Chaos: Really doesn't need explanation. You have souped-up SM with massive Daemons. And your regular grunts probably can't kill a Daemon unless they have a blank with them. Blood for the Blood God!
Necrons: They don't die. Just phase out. That's if they don't get straight back up in the first place. And the Empire will never see them coming.
Eldar: One Jedi was all it took to bring down the Empire. Imagine an army filled with them, except they don't care if they kill someone. And then you have all the elite Eldar.
Dark Eldar: Really, they could butcher Stormtroopers before half of them realise what's going on. Admittedly, that's pretty optimistic, since they wouldn't all spill out at once just to kill a few mon-keigh who shoot like Orks.
Orks: Really, Stormtroopers could beat them in a shooting contest. But there's too damn many.
Tyranids: No contest. Just... No contest. I doubt even the Death Star could kill all of them in time.
Tau: Okay, they could be realistically beaten. Unless they pull off an orbital defense cannon to blow up the Death Star. But these are the only guys I'm not optimistic about.

Fanboy rant over.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Now if your talking about Seperatest, Jedi, Sith, Republic, and all the Alien Allies from the Clone Wars.... well the Imperium will have to try as the numbers game really doesnt play a factor anymore.
> Seriously the World Engine caused a whole Chapter to kill themselves, and it still brought down a huge fleet in thre process. You know what they call the World Engine in SW? Death Star.. and SW has 2 of them with plans to build more. Super Star Destroyer was 1 of the many to come SDs... beats Battle Barges with Strike Cruisers hands down. Luke Skywalker smashes 2 planets together.... Goodbye Cadia and Armegeddon. As you can see the Imperium has its work cut out for them.


Ok, and i agree with your other arguments also, but if you are claiming Allies, even the enemies of the republic or empire, then why not throw some Eldar in with the Imperium, maybe some Tyranids also ( they would obviously not be fighting alongside the imperium, but thats ok) some necrons (with blood angel allies) orks and maybe some Tau. Oh, what about Draigo. I think luke would get his ass kicked by the master of uber. JK, Draigo is a bad joke. But I digress, the Imperium is built upon war, constant and total. I know the Empire fends off rebellions and the like, but they are not constantly fighting decade long wars for single planets. That is the problem. I mean the Empire is awesome, no doubt about it, some of the coolest war machines i have ever seen. But its AT-ATs against Titans, Landing Craft against Thunderhawks. There is just not enough weapons at the disposal of the Empire. A single Nova Cannon could annihilate the Executor Star Destroyer. Sure, the Death Star is awesomesauce, but it got blown up by what is simply a missile. I would like to see it hold up against an onslaught of nuclear devices or a Planetkiller. The Empire blew up Alderaan ok. One planet, now i have not read all of the expanded stuff, so i don't know for sure, but that is one planet. How many planets have the Imperium declared Exterminatus on? I don't think that the number is countable. The amount of planets in the Republic could be judged by the amount of booths in the senate. Maybe 500? Yet there are millions of worlds in the Imperium.

This debate is getting better now


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I think that what Arnold brought up is a good point here. Is this SW versus certain races, or versus the whole thing? Based on some of the evidence given so far, SW should be able to put up a good fight in space against the Imperium, but other races could prove a problem. What good could the SW-verse do against a Tyranid invasion for example? How about the similar numberage of the Orks, who don't even bother with any real space combat, and just drop down in a huge asteroid? What about the Tau and Eldar's superior technology/skills?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Ok, and i agree with your other arguments also, but if you are claiming Allies, even the enemies of the republic or empire, then why not throw some Eldar in with the Imperium, maybe some Tyranids also ( they would obviously not be fighting alongside the imperium, but thats ok) some necrons (with blood angel allies) orks and maybe some Tau. Oh, what about Draigo. I think luke would get his ass kicked by the master of uber. JK, Draigo is a bad joke. But I digress, the Imperium is built upon war, constant and total. I know the Empire fends off rebellions and the like, but they are not constantly fighting decade long wars for single planets. That is the problem. I mean the Empire is awesome, no doubt about it, some of the coolest war machines i have ever seen. But its AT-ATs against Titans, Landing Craft against Thunderhawks. There is just not enough weapons at the disposal of the Empire. A single Nova Cannon could annihilate the Executor Star Destroyer. Sure, the Death Star is awesomesauce, but it got blown up by what is simply a missile. I would like to see it hold up against an onslaught of nuclear devices or a Planetkiller. The Empire blew up Alderaan ok. One planet, now i have not read all of the expanded stuff, so i don't know for sure, but that is one planet. How many planets have the Imperium declared Exterminatus on? I don't think that the number is countable. The amount of planets in the Republic could be judged by the amount of booths in the senate. Maybe 500? Yet there are millions of worlds in the Imperium.
> 
> This debate is getting better now


:laugh: Yes its heating up.

Heres the big thing about allies. Like I said before the SW galaxy is a very civil one willing to tolerate and ally. If you watch the Clone Wars you would see that half the damn show is Republic/Serpratest trying to persaude allies wherever they can. Think of SWs Republic or even Empire as Tau. Now put that said Tau on the scale of the Imperium. They have the numbers now. The Imperium does not and will not ally with Xenos, Mutant, or the Heretic. Now in small skirmishes or behind closed doors those examples have happen. But never fully allies in something as big as Galaxy vs Galaxy. Also the Imperium is constantly fighting its own internal threats (Nids, Orks, Necrons, Chaos) with no hope of reprieve. SWs can bring full force to bear.

Nova Cannon is badass, but Ive seen it in 2 books fail after months of firing to harm a Starfort (WB novels Dark Creed) and fail to take out the Broken Back Space Hulk even after 3 shots (SD Hell Forge). I think a SD with its shields can take 1 hit. The second will likely do it in. Thats if said Ship with Nova Cannon is not disabled by Ion Pulse Cannon.

I have to give it up for Titan Legions. Nothing the Empire/Republic have compares other than AT-AT walkers. However the Titans can be easily brought down by massive Air Support like the Snow Speeders and Y-Bombers. Espicialy Y-Wings since they have the big bombs and Ion Cannons to eventualy disable the Titan.

Now the Deathstar. Its untouchable when its shield is activated. Even when the SCI FIs largest space ship (Super Star Destroyer) crashed into it it was superficial damage. You have to destroy its shield first just to cause any damage and to breach its shields you have to destroy Endor first  Nukes are no problem in space. Nuclear Bombs arnt even super destructive in terms like that, its the radiation thats the biggest threat. Space Ships with shields will no doubt survive a Nuke in space. Orbital Bombardment tho is another story.

Plenty of planets have been decimated via Orbital Barrage by Ships in SWs as well. KotOR have a seen where one ship decimates a planet via Turbo Laser Barrage. Also the Imperium Destroying ALL those planets up till 40k is not something to really boast as they are lost resources and manpower. SW still have most of theirs .

Last on the Miilion of worlds that Imperium have is nothing still to the million the SW have. Remember that for all these planets the Imperium have are not Hive Cities with PDFs and Fleets. Only a HANDFUL are even noteworthy. Theres only handfuls of Forge Worlds (20-30) in all the fluff mention. Look at Armeggedon, if that falls all Chimera production for that section of the Galaxy is done. One little Planet of a Million is that important. Whats the rest of the planets doing? Grox Farming, Minning, living Tribal/Feudal age lives, or all together dead worlds. Also SW republic may look like only 500 seats, but all those races have MUTIPLE planets of their own. Aleins arnt confide to one planet or area of space like 40k. Every Planet has hundreds of species. Those seats are for the representitives of the more important Worlds/Races/and Federations. Not just allies of a single planet. Then there is countless more not listed in the Republic but allied with Seperatest/Republic/Empire to help the effort and themselves. Another huge factor to look at is Droids and Clones. Both of these are completly inexhuastable resource of Military Power. You can easily make million more Dorids or 100K more Clones in a few months time. Add this to whole Alien/Human Population and now you have numbers rivalling Imperium.


Its a very even match really..... my fingers hurt from typing.:angry:


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

You're forgetting something......

CREEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!

How many tactical geniuses does the SW universe have huh? 40K have creed, and if you're talking pre-heresy, the primarchs. 
I would love to see the jedi try and take on the Tyranids...
Skywalker himself would grab his anes and scream for mommy. Seriously though. The sheer numbers of guardsmen would dwarf the stormtroopers.
And what's this crap about 40K having worse tech than SW? I don't see power armour equivalents, or melta weaponary, lance batteries, teleportation...
Need I go on? And that's before we even get onto the Grey Knights and ubermegapwnage Draigo.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Tau would fit right in in star wars.

"-Greetings we come in peace." Tau.
"-Oh hai, we are star wars people, we like aliens!" Star wars goon.
"-No way, they totally don't like them where we come from." Tau.
"-Yeah, we should be friends."Star wars goon.
"-Totally." Tau.

Until people start realising about their mind controlling equipment, but then it might be too late.

I dunno, i have far too little knowledge about star wars to rant at it properly.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Masked Jackal said:


> I think that what Arnold brought up is a good point here. Is this SW versus certain races, or versus the whole thing? Based on some of the evidence given so far, SW should be able to put up a good fight in space against the Imperium, but other races could prove a problem. What good could the SW-verse do against a Tyranid invasion for example? How about the similar numberage of the Orks, who don't even bother with any real space combat, and just drop down in a huge asteroid? What about the Tau and Eldar's superior technology/skills?


Tau and Eldar are outnumbered and Jedi/Sith are equal to Eldar trickery/skill.

Orks is a big unknown. They would have to deal with them like the Imperium does. A waaaagh starts up you send in millions of droids to put it down. Orks are nasty cause they're a constant threat, but never able to unite to rule a Galaxy.

Nids and Necrons are the biggest threats. Necs tech is on par/superior but again I can see them being beaten by Jedi/Sith led Clones/Droids. SW is united. Nids will have more of a fight as well. Like I say mutiple times, SWs is a United Galaxy that can pull its resources/manpower in a way the Imperium can never hope to achieve. Also people Liek Luke/Star Killer will swat entire Hive Ships out of Space. Very Useful. Also the Nids whole Shadow in the Warp and making Warp Space Travel unstable does not hinder SW at all. So Military efforts are more coordinated. So in the end it comes down Republic/Empire rallying its forces in time to meet the threat. And building a fleet of Deathstars/SSDs wouldnt hurt... but thats wishful thinking.

As for Chaos Im not wooried cause in the SW universe their is no warp or emotions for them to feed off of. People can say all they want how their is no Nulls to hurt the Daemons (I dont understand this as Humans/Orcs/Nids/Tau have no Nulls but kill daemons just the same!?) which is silly cause Daemons are off by Bolter Shells all the time. I could Argue that Jedi Presence is painful to Daemons. Anyone with Force Sight sees a pure Light Side Jedi is like looking at a Orbital Bombardemt Beam. So why no their presence just banishes Daemons? There no proving one way or the other. But I know there is no Cultist in SWs or Warp Storms in there universe, so I dont see how Daemons can ever hope to get involved then. If say CSMs summone a couple hundred, then mass Blaster Fire works on them as well as Mas Lasgun Fire.:clapping: FIRST RANK FIRE, SECOND RANK FIRE!!!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> You're forgetting something......
> 
> CREEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


My fingers are numb 

Alright... Tactical Geniuses. Darth Vador, Emperor (He orchestrated the whole Clone WAR), Rebel Forces Command (they actaully beat the Empire and 2 Deathstars), any Jedi Master that led a Clone Force, Count Dooku (He was one Sith vs all the Jedi Masters in a game of chess for years), General Grievus (quiet the capable General who would have continue to thrive if not betrayed by the Emperor). 

Primarchs are great but some of them were really stupid.... Like Angron. He was a TATICAL GENIUSE right?! Ferrus was a bright guy?! Till he fell into Fulgrims trap, just head down and charge. Idiot. Logar was a super smart general... no wait he wasnt. Magnus? He was smart but not the military sound mind, he relied on his powers for everything he did. Not seeing the connection here....

Jedi by themselves wiould get eaten by the numbers of gaunts. Jedi with Armies would Force Lightning 2500 points in turn one:biggrin:.

Guardsman outnumber Storm troopers. Agreed. Thats just towards the end Empire vs Imperium. Imperium beats any single faction in SW byitself. Now add the Republic, Trade Federation, and Jedi Order you have outclass Guardsman.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> And what's this crap about 40K having worse tech than SW?


Its inferior or more Primevil.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> PA


PA is used for couple 100,000 muscle bond Astartes or Ragging SoB. Who Needs Armore that is pierce half the time by mas Lasgun Fire when I have Destroyer Droids with built in Void Shields? Also that Armore wont survive no Lightsaber.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> or melta weaponary,


Lightsaber.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> lance batteries,


Turbo Laser Batteries and Ion Cannons.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> teleportation...


SW does not have Teleportation, however SW never have to worry about whole sqauds being lost in the Warp using the primitive Tech.:laugh:



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Need I go on?


Yes you do as other than the unsafe, very Rare, and unreliable Teleportaion SW has.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> And that's before we even get onto the Grey Knights and ubermegapwnage Draigo


Yeah well thats before I get into Jedi/Sith led by Luke or Starkiller untouchable badassness.:victory:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> See you say this, claiming complete neutrality. Then you go on to say things like:


That's me asking for a more neutral forum to debate it is. It doesn't stop me whoever from pointing out flaws regardless of which side.



MEQinc said:


> Which is basically saying Star Wars would win because of...?


Nope, I point out flaws on both sides of the argument. There are better arguments one can make for 40k.



MEQinc said:


> And this, which states Star Wars would win because some people have done some serious calculations about the capabilities of Star Wars stuff. Because people definitely haven`t done that for 40k.


Actually no, that states his argument would be ripped apart. There are far better arguments I've seen online that support 40k. If he wants to argue for 40k then he can use a better argument. Again, I'm not saying Star Wars would win, I'm just going for a better quality of debate. You misinterpret my statements.



MEQinc said:


> You know what`s a good way to hold(/win) a debate? Dismiss the other sides argument completely and provide no reasoning for it.


Good thing I'm not trying to get into a debate. I've already stated earlier that I consider vs debates to be too frustrating.



MEQinc said:


> See Gree? This is how you hold a debate. You make points favouring one side or the other (heresy I know) and then the other side critiques those points. It`s a back and forth thing.


Which, as stated before, I'm not trying to get into a debate. I could correct you, but I now once I started then I would get sucked into a versus debate on a forum that is going to be biased to one side.

That's my entire point. I already know how to hold a debate. I simply have no wish to. I did not come into this thread for a debate, but simply to criticize the entire practice of debating on biased forum.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> In relation to a tpic I read earlier, about SMs being superior to Jedi. I just want to knw what youd think about SM vs Clone troopers. Or maybe guard vs droids. My opinion is Imperium all the way cause although their ar similarities like bred especially for battle, constantly waring etc etc but SMs armour is far better. Droids are just very dum but that's equivalent to some guard but not all _plus_ droids have shit tanks!


Space marines own clone troopers.
Guard artillery the droid busses (the brown ones with a dome up front that hovers) busses with basilisks from very long range.

I see guards more on par with clone troopers.
Yes clones are superior to oomans blah blah but we take into considration numbers and about equal armour, we have a problem for the clones.

So there, back on topic.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> As for Chaos Im not wooried cause in the SW universe their is no warp or emotions for them to feed off of. People can say all they want how their is no Nulls to hurt the Daemons (I dont understand this as Humans/Orcs/Nids/Tau have no Nulls but kill daemons just the same!?) which is silly cause Daemons are off by Bolter Shells all the time. I could Argue that Jedi Presence is painful to Daemons. Anyone with Force Sight sees a pure Light Side Jedi is like looking at a Orbital Bombardemt Beam. So why no their presence just banishes Daemons? There no proving one way or the other. But I know there is no Cultist in SWs or Warp Storms in there universe, so I dont see how Daemons can ever hope to get involved then. If say CSMs summone a couple hundred, then mass Blaster Fire works on them as well as Mas Lasgun Fire.:clapping: FIRST RANK FIRE, SECOND RANK FIRE!!!


One would assume that in the collision of galaxies required to make this fight possible each galaxy maintains that which functions in its universe. So Jedi get to keep the force and 40k gets to keep the Warp, or else the whole thing becomes pointless. Now assuming that the Warp will function the same way in the Star Wars galaxy the same way it does here then Jedi and even clones would be equally as capable of killing daemons as their 40k counter-parts with two crucial differences. 1) the denizens of Star Wars do not know how the warp and daemons function and thus will be caught unprepared for their sudden arrivals and seeming invulnerability. 2) daemons are primarily vulnerable to beliefs. If you shoot at one and have faith that it will die it is more likely to do so. The Imperium teems with faith, it`s army is one of fanatics. Star Wars does not have the same reliance on faith and while that will generally be a plus it will likely hamper them in combat against daemons. 



> Life eater is no threat. If Space Marines on the ground can withstand the full force of it (Galaxy in Flames) then Luke has no problem. None. Also this is not including other UBER force wielders like Star Killer.[/FONT]


The problem with that statement is that marines wear sealed armour, which thus prevents access by the virus. Those marines who`s armour did not seal, or was breached by damage died to the virus. Luke does not wear sealed, self-regulating armour on all occasions, nor indeed in any instance that I am aware of. Being badass is not enough to prevent your very cells from dieing. 



> You say its a Galaxy at war... like it means something. I'm sorry it dont. Look at the Middle East, North Korea, Africa.... ALL OF THEM ARE ALWAYS AT WAR. Constant War... yet their tech and military capabilities SUCK!


Firstly that is not entirely true. Secondly, I was referring to mind-set and asset mobilization, not to technology levels (as those are established independently and I`ll admit that Star Wars has the upper hand). Every single citizen of the Imperium lives their lives prepared for the inevitable war in their sector. Every single citizen is prepared and willing to fight to defend their homeworlds/sectors/the Imperium as a whole. Each world in the Imperium bends at least part of its infrastructure to military endeavors, be they troops, guns or vehicles. Whole planets are devoted to nothing but war. Star wars lacks that focus. 



> The Imperium does not and will not ally with Xenos, Mutant, or the Heretic.


Simply because the Imperium is unwilling to ally itself with other bodies does NOT mean that those forces will not be involved in any fighting occuring between the two galaxies. Each operates on its own agenda but every single one of those agendas is anti-other galaxies invading. Orks: new boyz ta fight. Nids: More biomass for the hive. Necrons: more energy for the C`tan. Tau: more people to enslave for the Greater God. Eldar: more enemies who wish our distruction. DE: More souls. Imperium: more foul xenos who must die. Chaos: more who can be made to serve the True Gods. etc. They may not be allies per say but they will be working towards similar enough ends. 



> Last on the Miilion of worlds that Imperium have is nothing still to the million the SW have. Remember that for all these planets the Imperium have are not Hive Cities with PDFs and Fleets. Only a HANDFUL are even noteworthy. Theres only handfuls of Forge Worlds (20-30) in all the fluff mention.


1) note worthy on the sacle of the Imperium, or in other words, the scale of the Milky Way.
2) of the 154 human inhabited planets in the Calxian sector (a region barely notable on a map of the Imperium) there are 34 Hive worlds (with populations many thousands of times greater than ours) and 10 Forge worlds. 

The Imperium is hardly describable on its entire scale, so looking at only those worlds mentioned is not accurate for getting a sense of its scale. 



> Both of these are completly inexhuastable resource of Military Power. You can easily make million more Dorids or 100K more Clones in a few months time. Add this to whole Alien/Human Population and now you have numbers rivalling Imperium.


That is simply utterly untrue. Droids require numerous materials for their construction as well as dedicated facilities for that construction. Unless Star Wars has mineral replicators than Droids are not anywhere near an inexhaustible resources. This is even more true of Clones which must be cloned, fed, raised, trained and equipped. All of this is not coming from no where. The planets of Star Wars are not capable of sustaining or even creating a war on the truly galactic scale that the Imperium fights on a daily basis. They don`t have the man power, the resources or the facilities dedicated to war the the Imperium can bring to bear. Even divided and fractured as it is the Imperium has endured 2000 years of constant warfare from all angles. Star Wars, with its civil relations and generally self-sustaining planets cannot hope to compete with the Imperium in any kind of full-scale long-term war.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The problem with that statement is that marines wear sealed armour, which thus prevents access by the virus. Those marines who`s armour did not seal, or was breached by damage died to the virus. Luke does not wear sealed, self-regulating armour on all occasions, nor indeed in any instance that I am aware of. Being badass is not enough to prevent your very cells from dieing.


No, but the ability to make a force barrier does.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Since this has again begun to make sense, I have returned...



> or 100K more Clones in a few months time


:laugh: 

That would be the most fucked up thing in the history of the galaxy! You see, in that time they would be unable to get the proper training, meaning that they are fucked up shits. Secondly they would all die in a few years time since their gene acceleration process would have been fucked over really hard to make them adults in a couple of months.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Gree said:


> I claim nothing supporting either side yet. I'm simply pointing out the futility of asking a question on a board that is naturally going to be biased to one side. This board is naturally filled with 40k fans.
> 
> I mean, your argument is riddled with errors but I'm not going to bother arguing against you because this is a 40k forum and the outcome of the debate is a pre-decided outcome. Arguing otherwise would be an uphill battle.
> 
> If you want a true, objective debate against SW fans who are well versed in both series then go to a neutral forum and do that. Otherwise it's just an ego-stroking exercise for your fandom. I know places that would take apart your arguments and _annihilate_ it completely.


I don't know if someone else has already said this as I can't be arsed to look through every single post, but on a recent vs thread of astartes vs jedi (I think it was) the majority said Jedi would win.

Sort of puts what you said off course.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> One would assume that in the collision of galaxies required to make this fight possible each galaxy maintains that which functions in its universe. So Jedi get to keep the force and 40k gets to keep the Warp, or else the whole thing becomes pointless. Now assuming that the Warp will function the same way in the Star Wars galaxy the same way it does here then Jedi and even clones would be equally as capable of killing daemons as their 40k counter-parts with two crucial differences. 1) the denizens of Star Wars do not know how the warp and daemons function and thus will be caught unprepared for their sudden arrivals and seeming invulnerability. 2) daemons are primarily vulnerable to beliefs. If you shoot at one and have faith that it will die it is more likely to do so. The Imperium teems with faith, it`s army is one of fanatics. Star Wars does not have the same reliance on faith and while that will generally be a plus it will likely hamper them in combat against daemons.


See that the problem tho. Lets say both Galaxies merge perfectly. The Force makes up everything in every reality. So the Warp would be effected too. Heavely. Jedi would wink Daemons out of existance if thats the case. Also the comment on having faith to kill daemons is very inaccurate. The HH novels prove that Atheist with no belife (SMs) kill Daemons before they were called Daemons. The Daemons were nothing more Warp Xenos... which they are. Faith Plays no role in it. I think due to coplexeities its best to leave Warp Spilling over out of the fight. 40K has the Warp, SW has the Force.




MEQinc said:


> The problem with that statement is that marines wear sealed armour, which thus prevents access by the virus. Those marines who`s armour did not seal, or was breached by damage died to the virus. Luke does not wear sealed, self-regulating armour on all occasions, nor indeed in any instance that I am aware of. Being badass is not enough to prevent your very cells from dieing.


Someone already mention, Force Bubble. No threat.




MEQinc said:


> Firstly that is not entirely true. Secondly, I was referring to mind-set and asset mobilization, not to technology levels (as those are established independently and I`ll admit that Star Wars has the upper hand). Every single citizen of the Imperium lives their lives prepared for the inevitable war in their sector. Every single citizen is prepared and willing to fight to defend their homeworlds/sectors/the Imperium as a whole. Each world in the Imperium bends at least part of its infrastructure to military endeavors, be they troops, guns or vehicles. Whole planets are devoted to nothing but war. Star wars lacks that focus.


Agreed. SW better Tech, 40k more in the Mindset and lifestyle.




MEQinc said:


> Simply because the Imperium is unwilling to ally itself with other bodies does NOT mean that those forces will not be involved in any fighting occuring between the two galaxies. Each operates on its own agenda but every single one of those agendas is anti-other galaxies invading. Orks: new boyz ta fight. Nids: More biomass for the hive. Necrons: more energy for the C`tan. Tau: more people to enslave for the Greater God. Eldar: more enemies who wish our distruction. DE: More souls. Imperium: more foul xenos who must die. Chaos: more who can be made to serve the True Gods. etc. They may not be allies per say but they will be working towards similar enough ends.


Thats the Problem in itself. Lets say The Clones are Led by a Jedi would run into a Sith and Droids. They are attacked by Necs, Nids, and IG forces. The Nids have no sense of allies and would attack the Necs. The IG led by a overzelous Inquisitor would attack the Nec and Nids as well the SW forces. End result you have 3 small forces battling a large force and eachother. Its a disadvantage. There is no allies in 40k fluff. Everyone for themselves.




MEQinc said:


> 1) note worthy on the sacle of the Imperium, or in other words, the scale of the Milky Way.
> 2) of the 154 human inhabited planets in the Calxian sector (a region barely notable on a map of the Imperium) there are 34 Hive worlds (with populations many thousands of times greater than ours) and 10 Forge worlds.
> 
> The Imperium is hardly describable on its entire scale, so looking at only those worlds mentioned is not accurate for getting a sense of its scale.


SW also has huge city planets, giant moon size ship yards, and many echo friandly cities. End result is if you watch Clone Wars and read the Novels there is a new planet/system being made every episode/book. I cant argue Imperium has many planets. But Nids have killed whole swaths. Tau have a nice chunk of the Galaxy. EoT and Maelstrom take up large swaths. Then you have the Necron Tonmb Worlds killing sectors. Ork Empires are also HUGE and numerous. I seen the silly Ork map in the dex. :laugh:



MEQinc said:


> That is simply utterly untrue. Droids require numerous materials for their construction as well as dedicated facilities for that construction. Unless Star Wars has mineral replicators than Droids are not anywhere near an inexhaustible resources. This is even more true of Clones which must be cloned, fed, raised, trained and equipped. All of this is not coming from no where. The planets of Star Wars are not capable of sustaining or even creating a war on the truly galactic scale that the Imperium fights on a daily basis. They don`t have the man power, the resources or the facilities dedicated to war the the Imperium can bring to bear. Even divided and fractured as it is the Imperium has endured 2000 years of constant warfare from all angles. Star Wars, with its civil relations and generally self-sustaining planets cannot hope to compete with the Imperium in any kind of full-scale long-term war.


I really dont see how the Imperium is fighting on a galatic scale as you say. The way its set up there is four Segmentums in charge of there sector. Then there is wars fought on so many fronts that years later word reached Terra to say "hey they need shit here" then takes another year to get forces there. SW has no problem with that. Their tech allows them to travel faster, reliably, and no dependece on the Warp. 

I cant argue there is so much in 40k. I can easily argue 40k actually says for itself that its so big and wild that they lose more worlds now often enough. The whole point of 40k is the Declining Imperium. This is not including the Inffinit worlds that turn traitor or get cut off by Warp Storms, Nids SotW, or all together killed by a Xenos race. SW do not suffer this. Its again a more Stable and civil Galaxy. Thus way more focus.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

shall we try and compare tech? (for reference i am using the movies as i have no idea about the rest of it.

Luke v Mephiston (I did 4 lines then thought ok how would I kill them)
luke got his arm chopped off then had some mental fit when he found out his dad was the meanest daddy in the universe.
Mephiston was swamped by hundreds of aliens capable of bighting his face of before a city fell on his head and he walked out
i vote Mephiston tbh

Star Destroyer v Cruiser (size wise they're equal)
I'm not sure I saw any long range strike capability on the SW ships (nova cannon), they both have super destructive weapons batteries and can get blown up by asteroid fields.
the only way (imho) you would get a decisive win would be boarding torpedoes, i don't think SW universe has these so lets see how effective they would be.

Clones V SMs (clones seem to be the best fighters in the sw universe)
Ok so here both sides are clones of sorts, SMs less so, they both take 20ish years to make (maybe less for both sides, it takes 25 years to make an entire chapter and i remember them saying that clones grow faster then normal) so we can prob agree they are both good in a fight, space marines are just generally better then the clones in SW biologically, are we forgetting about the hearts and ridiculous genetic alterations, they are 7 feet tall, clones are not
win to the SM

death star v (not a hulk theyre just random flotsam) christ knows to be honest, an entire sub-sector fleet? blockade the bastards supply fleet. . job done, or yeah blow up the planet. that inquisitor did it to redirect a tyranid hive fleet killed millions and the boss' were only a little pissed off.

ok so so far even stevens, 

numbers would be the decisive factor imho, it took a few weeks to get from the outskirts of the SW universe to the centre? whereas it takes months to get from sol to the galactic edge, if not years. . . . .


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Ultra111 said:


> I don't know if someone else has already said this as I can't be arsed to look through every single post, but on a recent vs thread of astartes vs jedi (I think it was) the majority said Jedi would win.
> 
> Sort of puts what you said off course.


And in most versus threads I've read 40k is favored.

Your own interpretation of posts in a single thread doesn't mean much to me, no offense.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hellados said:


> shall we try and compare tech? (for reference i am using the movies as i have no idea about the rest of it.


I posted this before for anyone curious or dont really know nothing but the movies. Here it is again.



> http://sciencefictionmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/space_comparison_chart_huge.jpg
> 
> Heres a Chart that is based on the sizes various SCI FI material. 40k ships biggest hitters are stated around 5000 meters. Trade Federation Ships are over 3000. Its not that bigs of a size difference from Star Wars biggest to 40k average biggest. Calamari Cruisers are near 4000 meters.
> 
> ...





Hellados said:


> Luke v Mephiston (I did 4 lines then thought ok how would I kill them)
> luke got his arm chopped off then had some mental fit when he found out his dad was the meanest daddy in the universe.
> Mephiston was swamped by hundreds of aliens capable of bighting his face of before a city fell on his head and he walked out
> i vote Mephiston tbh.


LOL, no. Luke has shwon ricockulas feats after the Movies.



Hellados said:


> Star Destroyer v Cruiser (size wise they're equal)
> I'm not sure I saw any long range strike capability on the SW ships (nova cannon), they both have super destructive weapons batteries and can get blown up by asteroid fields.
> the only way (imho) you would get a decisive win would be boarding torpedoes, i don't think SW universe has these so lets see how effective they would be.


The only problem with boarding Torpedos is thats a SM trademark, and theres not a whole lot Astartes Fleets, and Astartes Fleets are rather small. Also SW Ships typicaly carry fighters that seem to be lacking in most 40k Space Battle. 40k has alot of Battleships where SWs have Alot of Aircraft Carriers. So far the ability to launch Aircraft armed with Torpedos swarming a Battleship wins 9/10 times. So SW ships are not outclass in any way. they have fewer types of Big Guns but have more types of Ship Killing Space Craft. Its a trade off.



Hellados said:


> Clones V SMs (clones seem to be the best fighters in the sw universe)
> Ok so here both sides are clones of sorts, SMs less so, they both take 20ish years to make (maybe less for both sides, it takes 25 years to make an entire chapter and i remember them saying that clones grow faster then normal) so we can prob agree they are both good in a fight, space marines are just generally better then the clones in SW biologically, are we forgetting about the hearts and ridiculous genetic alterations, they are 7 feet tall, clones are not
> win to the SM


Ofcourse SM beat a Clone. Its the fact that a Chapter would be fighting 3 times its number and then it comes to be a closer call. Espicialy if elemets like Jedi Generals, ARC Troopers, and all the supporting Fleets involved. its really no different then a single world of Cadia beating back the Black Legion... Numbers.



Hellados said:


> death star v (not a hulk theyre just random flotsam) christ knows to be honest, an entire sub-sector fleet? blockade the bastards supply fleet. . job done, or yeah blow up the planet. that inquisitor did it to redirect a tyranid hive fleet killed millions and the boss' were only a little pissed off.


Say what. 40k has a death Star.. it was called the World Engine and it wrecked 3/4ths of the Imperial Fleet and survived 15 SM Task Forces as well. What was left of the Invaders rammed it and even that almost utterly failed.



Hellados said:


> numbers would be the decisive factor imho, it took a few weeks to get from the outskirts of the SW universe to the centre? whereas it takes months to get from sol to the galactic edge, if not years. . . . .


Where does everyone seem to think SW Galaxy is small? Where?! Is it because they have Necron like Hyperspace Travel... Faster than Warp Travel..... Is that why?

http://starwarss.com/star_wars_galaxy_map_1.jpeg

Heres a semi official map. Over 400,000 BILLION stars with over a Million Habital Planets. Home to 20 Million Intelegent Species. It Spans over 100,000 Light Years and thanks to Hyper Space travel it can be crossed in months. The whole damn thing. 

Our Milky Way is said to be estimtaed as 100,000 Light Years from end to end. Same size as SWs. Infact I bet Lucas Art probaly copied the Milky way. Heres a link to a Official Map from the rulebook I belive (Correct me if im wrong) and if you follow the legend from the longest end of Ipmerial Space to longest end it measures 49,000 Lightyears... making it really small.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_Warhammer_40k_Galaxy_Map.jpg




Am I the only one look this garbage up :laugh:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Regarding the Imperial Super Star Destroyer (and Imperial Star Destroyers in general). It does not take all that much effort at all to bring one down. We only need to ram the bridge with a single fighter and the case is solved.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Where does everyone seem to think SW Galaxy is small? Where?! Is it because they have Necron like Hyperspace Travel... Faster than Warp Travel..... Is that why?


Because everything in the galaxy is determined around ~12 individuals.

Also, isn't the Expanded Universe non-canon?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Regarding the Imperial Super Star Destroyer (and Imperial Star Destroyers in general). It does not take all that much effort at all to bring one down. We only need to ram the bridge with a single fighter and the case is solved.


unish: It was a stray fighter that hit the command deck of an already severely crippled ship. You can take out an imperial ship in the same manor. 

SSD is a dreadnought if immense proportions and it would bring down any vessel that the imperium has with relative ease. It has more weapons, numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands, has advanced shields, at least comparable to void shields, and meters of armor. It would decimate any vessel in the imperial fleet.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gally912 said:


> Also, isn't the Expanded Universe non-canon?


Not everything, but a part of it. Recently a lot of stuff has been declared non-canon though, and its seems like a trend set to continue.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

SSD - phalanx, thing is things in the 40k world have to be balanced, things in the SW world not so much, if you look at the 40k art work then the cruisers etc are thousands of meters long with hundreds upon thousands of guns poking out of it

Look at the cruiser on the front cover of bfg, the damn thing is COVERED in guns

also if luke is so epic perhaps we should compare him to the emperor? or has he now been written up to the proportions of a Chaos god or c'tan?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Hellados said:


> also if luke is so epic perhaps we should compare him to the emperor? or has he now been written up to the proportions of a Chaos god or c'tan?


By the sound of it those would not be nearly enough... Even my Star Wars fanboyness fails to understand some of the retardness the expanded universe has done to stuff.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Hellados said:


> SSD - phalanx, thing is things in the 40k world have to be balanced, things in the SW world not so much, if you look at the 40k art work then the cruisers etc are thousands of meters long with hundreds upon thousands of guns poking out of it
> 
> Look at the cruiser on the front cover of bfg, the damn thing is COVERED in guns
> 
> also if luke is so epic perhaps we should compare him to the emperor? or has he now been written up to the proportions of a Chaos god or c'tan?


Ah, good point. The phalanx would take one down, but there are hundreds if not thousands of SSD's and only a single phalanx. 

Thousands? Yeah, maybe one or two. An imperial cruiser is a midget compared to an imperial SSD. Hundreds of thousands? That is a huge exaggeration. 

Luke won. Why? BEcause he threw Terra into the sun. :suicide:


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok ill go down to a little less then a hundred;










May I also add that this is not a battle cruiser (no turrets up top) and definitely not a battleship, also I could start arguing that the battleships the imperium are nothing compared to what the ad mech CAN produce with ancient and xenos tech which they have because every peace of information discovered is transferred back to Mars. 

Also if the fan base could make cannon the emperor would most likely stand up kill the chaos gods destroy all of the nids and orks by farting lightning then lob a black hole into the eye of terror to shut it.

lets not get ott on what we think please, the guns on the side of the star destroyers or the cruisers can flatten planets! to go bigger would mean they could take out planets not just level them, which i may and neither can.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Ah, good point. The phalanx would take one down, but there are hundreds if not thousands of SSD's and only a single phalanx.


A gross over-exaggeration. At the time of The Empire Strikes Back, there were only (even taking into account what the Expanded Universe says) two SSDs in existence: _Lusankya_ buried under the surface of Coruscant and _Executor_, Vader's flagship.

Seeing as, within 10 years of the end of ESB the entire Empire had been defeated and was undergoing severe mopping-up operations by the New Republic, this did not really give a whole lot of time to suddenly pump out "thousands" of Super Star Destroyers. There were only two shipyards capable of building them (Fondor and Kuat), and both of those were mainly occupied with pumping out _Imperial_-class vessels.

Arguing about "what universe would win" using the exceptions (SSDs, Phalanx) rather than the norm (Imp-stars, cruisers which are comparable in size) really is a self-defeating and futile task...


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Boc said:


> Arguing about "what universe would win" using the exceptions (SSDs, Phalanx) rather than the norm (Imp-stars, cruisers which are comparable in size) really is a self-defeating and futile task...


that is the point i was trying to get at


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Wait?

Luke threw planets?

There is a certain level of powerlevel i cannot comprehend as awesome.

Let me explain.
Number is danger factor in a fight, and some characters in some fiction fit in to several.
1.Crappy human. These can actually be awesome, and funny.
2.Normal human. You, me.
3.Boosted human. Like, the swat guys in that movie about them, they take out a bunch of guys and have a manuscript save. Can be awesome.
4.Action hero. Yeah arnold go! Badassness classic.
5.Anime hard. The classic fly around shoot stuff at stuff, whatever, really awesome.
6.Really hard. That was a building? Well i threw my sword at it.... no more building.
7.Overly hard. Destroy cities with some real cool move.
8.Ridiculously hard. Pick up continents with your power.
9.Planets beeing tossed about. 
10. Oh, i accidentally killed this solar system.
11.-''-...this galaxy.
12.-''-...this universe.
Etc etc.

Somewhere about 7, is the epitome of badass for me, hey, the main villain in a story doing that once in a story is WAY cool.

Go above 7, and it start to go down again.
-Oh, you threw a planet at the boss.... well that's powerful i guess.....

-Oh, that race has fighters whose torpedoes kill galaxies..... um....

-Oh, the hero and the boss just picked up an universe each and is fighting eachother with them...... stupid.

To me, 40k is somewhere 6-7 isch, the highest you get without going above. Star wars as in the movies are 5-6 for me, sometimes 7. Which is really awesome.

Then you bring up this other stuff that is not cool, sure he tossed a planet at the boss, but that's not an interesting battle.
I guess some people get defensive of 40k when all this "Luke this Luke that" goes so ridiculous 40k'ers defend their side just for the sake it is cooler, yeah Luke seems more powerful, he's also a crying wuss in the movie so that is how we remember him.

So i say skip this expanded stuff, it doesn't sound cool.
Espescially if Luke goes about tossing around planets. That's just stupid.

Edit: And don't forget, that the bulk standard star destroyers are 100 metres longer than the cobra class destroyer.
The smallest 40k war-fleet vessel.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Boc said:


> A gross over-exaggeration. At the time of The Empire Strikes Back, there were only (even taking into account what the Expanded Universe says) two SSDs in existence: _Lusankya_ buried under the surface of Coruscant and _Executor_, Vader's flagship.
> 
> Seeing as, within 10 years of the end of ESB the entire Empire had been defeated and was undergoing severe mopping-up operations by the New Republic, this did not really give a whole lot of time to suddenly pump out "thousands" of Super Star Destroyers. There were only two shipyards capable of building them (Fondor and Kuat), and both of those were mainly occupied with pumping out _Imperial_-class vessels.
> 
> Arguing about "what universe would win" using the exceptions (SSDs, Phalanx) rather than the norm (Imp-stars, cruisers which are comparable in size) really is a self-defeating and futile task...


Yeah, it was, my bad. However, when are basing this? Apparently here was somewhere between 14 and 18. Again, my bad.

For fleet battles, I believe SW ships could outclass their imperial counterparts, I believe this is true in general. But I believe the scale of the imperium would win the day.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I believe SW ships could outclass their imperial counterparts, I believe this is true in general.


After a hundredish hours of constant space battle in "Empire at War", and at least double the amount in Battle front II I would not be to sure. The weapons on the star ships seem a bit, well, not so powerful compared to the ones in 40k. Same thing with the movies, cool, but powerful? Not so. 

And then comes the question about shield generators? I would like to say that the 40k ones are far superior.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> After a hundredish hours of constant space battle in "Empire at War", and at least double the amount in Battle front II I would not be to sure. The weapons on the star ships seem a bit, well, not so powerful compared to the ones in 40k. Same thing with the movies, cool, but powerful? Not so.
> 
> And then comes the question about shield generators? I would like to say that the 40k ones are far superior.


Honestly, we have no idea what the power output of the SW ships are. I have heard stories of imperial SD cleansing entire planets of life in fairly short order. It would seem that their guns are probably of comparable strength to the imperial weapons. 

No clue. Difficult to compare when we have no reference point.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

context people

A BFG ship can level hive cities in a single salvo (unless you want something cool and are a Tanith Colonel called Corbec or some other such crap [sorry little rant]) lance weapons and nova cannons are even more destructive, we're talking weapons many times the size of a nuke, I mean a completely different level, more than likely just short of taking out the planet entirely.

Can someone put the fire power of the SW destroyers into context or is it pretty much the same kinda thing?

shields are shite on both, both universes are doomed to asteroids


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> It would seem that their guns are probably of comparable strength to the imperial weapons.


You mean like this?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is a battle barge. Not a small cruiser. And no, not cyclonic torpedos.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> That is a battle barge.


So? There goes the whole fleet. Class does not matter anymore.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Maybe perhaps you could compare clones to the normal imperial guard?

btw you have to remember that it's not so much that guardsmen are shit, it's more that everything else in the 40k universe is SOOO much 'arder

you see you have 
the normal little nerd at school
the big fat bully
the nerds bit brother

In this analogy civilians would be little nerds, big fat bully would be guardsmen and SMs would be the big brother in the hierarchy, tell me where would you put the clones?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah and this is Star Wars Planet Barrage.






Planet Devastation from a single weak ass SD type...So whats your point?
I stated 3 times already and provided links on how Powerful Turbo Lasers are. Then theres Proton Torpedos. Ontop all of this theres Fighters like the Y-Wing and Tie Bomber that are designed for Ship Killing. And no one has yet explain how the Ion Cannons and Ion Pulse is countered by 40k ships. It diasbles them.






Incredible Range and Accuracy. It goes thru Shields. Some SDs are outfitted with these. Sooo... whats the point in saying 40k ships have bigger guns when SWs have more effective ones?


Also Clones would rate as the Little Brother that plays football in highschool :grin:


Edit, I posted wrong video. Sorry. Fix now.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

All cruisers in 40k have that firepower.

Heck, you only need 1 cyclonic torpedo, and those can be fired (not in bfg for game balance) by cobra class destroyers, whom are smaller than star destroyers.

And there is no small cruisers in 40k.

And yes, battlebarges are big. And that firewarrior cutscene is very epic.


Edit: Wow, That sd sure has crappy aim. 
And they didn't blow up any planet, they blew up a city.
It's fun how you counter one of the best 40k ctscenes i've seen on the matter with a utterly bad voiceover that rapes ones ears, and obviously does not destroy the planet since it is still there.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The imperium does have the technology to match star wars, they are just not allowed to use it because it is techno heresy. The mechanicum, if faced with something like the SSD, would just unleash some of the creations, or failing that, why no just let the void dragon out. Corrupt all technology to its will. There goes your SSD. ploop, gone. Not that it would happen. We have to remember though that a rebellion of what a couple of thousand, maybe million, destroyed the entire galactic empire. What would the might of what is essentially a million light-year across war machine that is the imperium do to it. I also doubt chaos would let their prized possessions be killed by the SW guys who do not feed them their power, so forward march the 14th black crusade. Every traitor legion going in for the pound-me-in-the-ass strike to basically ensure the survival of their gods.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok this is back to the idea of 40k having to be balanced, 1st video doesn't show much, they carpet bomb while 40k concentrates fire power to get to the planets core by the looks of it.
If those guns were so bad arse why doesn't every ship and planet have them? is it because it would make it easy for rebels to win then so ruin the story??

The 40k universe has untold variations of lots of different ship types of torpedoes, bombers, assault craft and fighters, emperor battleships are said to carry hundreds of bombers capable of crippling fleets. when they say 'turrets' in the BFG rulebook you are meant to read 'batteries of'


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> So? There goes the whole fleet. Class does not matter anymore.


You're comparing a ship that is designed to break blockades and bombard planets to a ship that is 1/8th the size and designed to engage in fleet combat. It is like comparing apples to fucking 2x4's. One is a small cruiser that is the standard and there are dozens, or hundreds depending on fleet size to a ship that would be considered to be near capital ship size.



mcmuffin said:


> The imperium does have the technology to match star wars, they are just not allowed to use it because it is techno heresy. The mechanicum, if faced with something like the SSD, would just unleash some of the creations, or failing that, why no just let the void dragon out. Corrupt all technology to its will. There goes your SSD. ploop, gone. Not that it would happen. We have to remember though that a rebellion of what a couple of thousand, maybe million, destroyed the entire galactic empire. What would the might of what is essentially a million light-year across war machine that is the imperium do to it. I also doubt chaos would let their prized possessions be killed by the SW guys who do not feed them their power, so forward march the 14th black crusade. Every traitor legion going in for the pound-me-in-the-ass strike to basically ensure the survival of their gods.


It is SW verses the imperium, not SW verses the 40k universe.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

And why didn't the SW fans use this.





I mean it's a cool sequence.


The control going all "DOOOooooommmm...."
*BOOOM!!* Over, finished. Planet dead.

Instead they bring up the worst ever planetary cityscape bombardment i've seen AND with a horribly bad voiceover.

Although sorry to break it to you Hellados, but 40k doesn't have untold variations.
They have a bunch, but not nearly as many as star wars, for one reason.

The designs were perfected as to that universes standards when designed in the first place, the variations mostly come from others wanting to ty some other tactic out.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Because there is only one ship, that I know of, that is capable of that so it would be silly to throw it against a battle barge.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

in 40k nearly every forge world differs in design and type, for example BFG was meant to be a single sectors variation of imperial ships, whereas the chaos ships are a variation of a design from a different forge world

a better example would be to look at the forge world imperial guard leman russ tanks or for that matter the 'standard' lasgun, the IG codex states there are different types

lastly forge world has 4 different types of marauder bombers, in BFG it is accepted that although exact configurations differ for ease of play bombers are bombers, fighters are fighters and assualt craft are assault craft, the few named craft are for ease of use


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> YouTube - ‪KotOR Leviathan destroys Taris (Warning: Spoiler)‬‏


The first thought that I came to think of while playing the game and seeing that was "Thats gona take fucking weeks."


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Klomster said:


> All cruisers in 40k have that firepower.
> 
> Heck, you only need 1 cyclonic torpedo, and those can be fired (not in bfg for game balance) by cobra class destroyers, whom are smaller than star destroyers.
> 
> ...



Yes Crappy Aim :laugh: but got the job done just the same. Also if you watched the video after Malek had the ship circle and skorched the whole planet. Effectivly killing it. If that doesnt suit your taste we could always pull out the whole 




Much better than Battle Barrage. Plus I know those Orbital Bombardments and Virus Bombs dont blow up Planets since it is still there. Orbital Bomardent rarley destroy planets ethier genious. Check the Facts in Codexes and BL books.They decimate the Surface. Thats why Carnifexes have survive Planet Killing Attacks unish:


Hellados said:


> Ok this is back to the idea of 40k having to be balanced, 1st video doesn't show much, they carpet bomb while 40k concentrates fire power to get to the planets core by the looks of it.
> If those guns were so bad arse why doesn't every ship and planet have them? is it because it would make it easy for rebels to win then so ruin the story??
> 
> The 40k universe has untold variations of lots of different ship types of torpedoes, bombers, assault craft and fighters, emperor battleships are said to carry hundreds of bombers capable of crippling fleets. when they say 'turrets' in the BFG rulebook you are meant to read 'batteries of'


After reading most novels like WB Dark Creed, NL Soul Hunter, NL Blood Reaver, HH First Heretic all had awsome Space Battles in it. Nothing With Fighter involved :no:. SD Hell Forge had a Adeptus Mechanicus Fllet with fighters, but they basicaly were there to take hits for the Bigger Ships... :dunno: So I dont see where you are coming from that Fighter Battles are more common in BFG/40K than SW universe.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

i'm not saying more common then SW just more common then some may think

have you ever played BFG? squads of bombers can take out capital ships, not Battleships but still

also some of the authors take liberties with the BFG stuff, like one i read a little while ago where a cruiser survives a landing everyone gets out then another one comes into the atmosphere. . . . .


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Have you read majority of space battle fluff in the BL novels on space battles? Rarely any if at all fighters playing a role. Even some Battle Ships have no hangers. I aslo read BFG extensivly trying to figure out where the ships stand. Mars Battle Cruisers has Hangers and Emperor Class too, but the other 2 types of Battle ships, Retribution and whatever else dont even have Hangar Bays for star fighters. Same with most cruisers, they're made for huge ship to ship or ship to planet battle/support.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

look at any of the ark work and you will see little specs resembling fighters.

and we are getting away from the point

my point is that the space battles are a stalemate i will concede the point on the ion thingy if you concede on the nova cannon.

what did we decide on the sm v clones? i think it was that SMs are much better.

then lastly luke v the emperor


and why did you all ignore my analogy of clones being bulies and SMs being the nerds big brother???


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Well since luke is all fine and dandy and the emperor is a corpse in a stasis field.....

I'd say the custodians would give him a run of his money.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

you could also read that the emperor is fighting the forces of chaos trying to enter Terra and corrupt man kind, the emperors mate (cant remember his name) sitting on the golden throne for a few hours almost killed him, the emperor has been doing it for thousands of years. oh by the way how old is luke? 

The art work although showing the emperor as looking dead does not prove he is dead otherwise after 10k years he would be dust, it could just be that he isn't making himself look like the emperor with his amazing powers as he is a bit busy (WIN WIN WIN hehehe)


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Malcador?
Is that the mate you are referring to?

Yeah, i guess the emperor is planning to look as ugly as possible wen luke gets there luke will be all EEEEEWWW and run away, not killing him.

A cunning plan, cunning indeed emperor.....


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klomster said:


> Well since luke is all fine and dandy and the emperor is a corpse in a stasis field.....
> 
> I'd say the custodians would give him a run of his money.


I'm sorry, but what gives you the impression that a couple pricks in shiny armor could take down the dude who throws planets about?


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

oooh another point in the SMs favour v skywalker,, yes he can see the future, well what he is going to see is the space marine hitting him once in the head once on the arm and once on the leg and as sky walker doesnt have abnormally fast reflexs he can only stop 2 out of 3 so how do you want to die?

also as he does not posses super human strength how does he expect to stop them?

as he does not have the endurance of a super human how long does he think he has?

and lastly as there is another 999 men just like the one stood infront of him how does he expect to win??





ps the correct title is Genetically Engineered Super Pricks


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

They have golden armour.

That's cool, and totally nullifies Luke's ability to throw planets.....
Or more seriously, Luke happens to be on terra when confronting the emperor, and i wouldn't throw a planet at myself.


Edit: Hellados, you know the force boosts all jedi in agility speed and endurance right?
Just to make sure.
Although there seems to be overestimations....


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

@ Klomster No I didn't know that, as i said i saw the movies but that's about it. in the movies the jedi get shot in the back by clones, even the ones that knew it was coming, clearly not THAT fast hehehe 

and yes marines have been stabbed in the back etc etc it's not like they're gods or anything i just thought i'd mention my observations


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, you have to cut the poor jedi's some slack.

There were alot of troopers with high rate of fire guns, and he was old (at least he looks old)


And a place i remember a reference to the heightened sences is when anakin is pod racing and they talk about how he's the only human who can do it.
It's because he has heightened reflexes and stuff. And he's just a kid then.

Don't remember any other places though.... Oh, the fact they force jump around should also show that they are not fully normal


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

is it his reflexes or the fact he can see the future to some degree? and the jumping is down to being able to control the force that is around everything, so they can chuck things around but physically arent any stronger... atleast thats the conclusion i came to

but it kinda makes them tired right?


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I agree to all those statements.

For i am bored, it's almost 2 in the night here and you have good points.

Don't really know what you mean with tired.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Hellados said:


> is it his reflexes or the fact he can see the future to some degree? and the jumping is down to being able to control the force that is around everything, so they can chuck things around but physically arent any stronger... atleast thats the conclusion i came to
> 
> but it kinda makes them tired right?


Force Throw costs 100 Mana. Force Foresight costs an upkeep so can't be left on all the time. 

Force Concentration, however, is an activated ability the raises a skill check for a set duration.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

So how much mana (isn't it called force points?) does the general jedi knight have?

350?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Klomster said:


> So how much mana (isn't it called force points?) does the general jedi knight have?
> 
> 350?


Well, Luke is a level 2/6 Pilot/Jedi in the movies, so I'm not sure what exactly. But from the Expanded Universe he gets to be level 136 Jedi Master General ex-Sith Lord,

so he has around 1,200,000 mana.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh bummer.

That's a bit more than a generic psyker in 40k..... since they don't use mana but can unleash about as much as possible with a percentage chance of something bad to happen.

Power works differently from place to place apparently 

Let's say that a generic jedi knight is level 6 jedi. How much mana?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Klomster said:


> Oh bummer.
> 
> That's a bit more than a generic psyker in 40k..... since they don't use mana but can unleash about as much as possible with a percentage chance of something bad to happen.
> 
> ...


Well it really depends on what Tier you are talking about.

In the old republic, when Jedi and Sith were a dime a dozen, and everyone had the (relatively) same power level, and a lot of people spent most of their points in Dual-wielding light-sabre combat and Force Speed/Strength. 

At the time of the movies, when there were only a few and they were mystical and heck, some people didnt even believe they existed (despite having a council only 19 years before) the average high-level jedi, like Luke or Vader, could only do relative parlour tricks. Like, using Force Grab to move some debris or pull their light-sabre out of ice.
This was awesome for the time tho, and put these guys on the pedestal of ultimate force use. Hell, the Emperor took Vader down with a single casting of Force Lightning! (Which level 4 Sith can cast)
Edit: Note, that Force Lightning's power is directly proportional to the amount of mana channelled.

In the after-wards expanded universe, Luke and Leia learn to build up enough power to reach level 3 super-jedi, much to the chagrin of the new cloned emperor. In relative terms here, again, Leia is only a level 5 or 6 Force User (not technically a jedi-knight) but has a lot more mana than in comparison to the movie-tier power levels.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Firtsly I conced to Ion Cannons is SW best asset to Nova Cannon is 40K best Asset in space battle. Its really even as far as certain Characters feats, Space Battles, and Groun Forces. The only thing 40k has over SW in Spades is the Titans. AT-ATs are tough but dont match up. 


Im done here. I really use everybit of source and info I could get on the internet to show how close of a settting this is.



Oh and again as I said Where IG are bullies and Sm are Big Brothers, Clones are the little Brother thats plays sports. Big Brother>Little brother that play Sports>Bullies.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah, AT-AT in all their glory, but i imagine them having a hard time even against warhound titans.

And those are the scouts.

Although i think we can all agree that star wars vs 40k imperium is more of a close call than anyone would have believed at first?


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

To clarify (coming in late I haven't got time to read all the posts) are you talking about the empire vs the imperium or all of star wars universe vs all of 40k universe?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Gree said:


> And in most versus threads I've read 40k is favored.
> 
> Your own interpretation of posts in a single thread doesn't mean much to me, no offense.


Oh, I agree. Most probably do due to the reasons you said. Just thought I would point it out though


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Thinking about it the imperium on its own would pwn all of star wars universe. The sheer scale of the imperium and its armies would dwarf anything the star wars universe could offer.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Ok, heres my take on this. in order to make the arguement somewhat feasable we have to get rid of certain "exceptions to the rule". meaning, darth vader, emperor palpatine, starkiller, luke skywalker, the primarchs, the emperor, draigo, marneus calgar, castellan creed, the ctan, fateweaver, ssd's deathstars blackstone fortresses, planet killers, all the named characters or special equipment in either universe, need to be exluded. just pit the backbones of each army, jedi knights, vs grey knights, droids vs cadians, space marines vs clones, sith vs chaos sorcerers/daemons, battle cruiser to battle cruiser, man to man, no aliens, or extremely rare massive warships/titans. who would win in smal/large battles generally speaking, army to army.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

laviathan13089 said:


> Ok, heres my take on this. in order to make the arguement somewhat feasable we have to get rid of certain "exceptions to the rule". meaning, darth vader, emperor palpatine, starkiller, luke skywalker, the primarchs, the emperor, draigo, marneus calgar, castellan creed, the ctan, fateweaver, ssd's deathstars blackstone fortresses, planet killers, all the named characters or special equipment in either universe, need to be exluded. just pit the backbones of each army, jedi knights, vs grey knights, droids vs cadians, space marines vs clones, sith vs chaos sorcerers/daemons, battle cruiser to battle cruiser, man to man, no aliens, or extremely rare massive warships/titans. who would win in smal/large battles generally speaking, army to army.


This is actually worth discussing. Certain things vs certain things. The whole imperium could crush the star wars universe far too easily.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Destroying Stars in Starwars is something seen rarely and with big moral impact on the galaxy! 

In Warhammer 40k destroying Systems is the every day work, and nobody really cares....


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Flash said:


> This is actually worth discussing. Certain things vs certain things. The whole imperium could crush the star wars universe far too easily.


i agree, and thats the point. we can nerd rage all we want about "my starships got bigger lasers" or "my jedi can move planets", or even "my primarch pwns all force users" but in the end these special characters arent doing the brunt of the fighting, anyone whos been in a fight knows that at some point, you get tired/hurt/out of ammo/outnumbered. it really depends on who's standing next to you and supplying your fight, how much you trained, and how prepared you are. 40k owns SW's on these factors. bigger factories, more men, more guns/tanks, more wins. numbers aside. i dont see anything, in sw that doesnt have its equivalent or better on the imperiums side.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I'd say army to army 40k wins.

Star wars don't have the bulk, nor the equipment to take on some some 40k stuff.

Star wars strength lies in their mobility, the ability to think in new ways (40k major weakness) and some very powerful secret stuff.

I'd say a clone trooper is as good as a veteran kasrkin, that means very badass, heavy armour and a good gun. Kasrkin probably have more armour when the clone is better physically. Balancing out.

But let's bring out a scenario.

This is planet Honklogar, a temperate planet with a few big cities, some canyons and some oceans.

The fleets battle eachother, ground troops get very little fleet support (both sides)
And both sides have access to a group of super heavies.

With the troops given by Flash, i have a hard time seeing star wars win.
The jedi are in the fight for their life against the gk, the clones vs the kasrkin kill teams duke it out par on par, the space marines have no equal on star wars side so they will wreak havoc along the supply lines of star wars (for that is what marines do, lightning hit and runs vs important targets.)

The super heavies of star wars (i guess something like the big car in the battle for Kashyyk, and the beetlebacks) have REAL ISSUES with the 40k super heavies, yeah, a baneblade is tough, and i think baneblade vs beetleback is a bit of who shot first.
Or more like how can star wars get behind it with their three beetlebacks.

It's when we bring in the titans of 40k star wars get a real whack in the face, it is truly machines with no equal in star wars.

I mean, huge walkers with void shields, some of them are even faster than light tanks (warhound).
Star wars start getting trouble.

And for the record, force weapons don't break vs power weapons. That includes lightsabers.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

are clone troops supposed to be a lot better than storm troopers?

I ask because storm troopers got taken out by Ewoks, and I don't see why the Empire would downgrade to sub-par storm troopers when it had clone troops


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

If i recall correctly storm troops are alot worse than clone troops.

They had an issue with a clone batch i think and decided to rework the pattern, so the quality of the troops dropped.

Then it was the clone uprising, which might have been the problem.

All in all, storm troopers are not that great compared to clones.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Ah yes and hear comes my side against the SW fans 

I think it is very even battle until the Space Marine Chapters get involved.

Another point I just thought of, the imperium has little to no morals. . . . think of the Russians v the Germans in the 2nd World War, they just went mental, out gunned out played but they gave no quarter!


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I thinke the most brainwashed of the waffen SS is a sound comparrison with guardsmen.

Cept guard has better weapons.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Regarding the Ewoks... 

Was it not the 501st that defended the shield generator? Well, the 501st was the ONLY legion which remained Jango clone only. So they just seem to suck hard.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, that or manuscipt sucks at times.

Playing the battlefront games, the 501st seems to be a kinda awesome grouping.
Which happen to wander in to small teddy bears who are the good guys whom always triumph.....

They could have all been sith lords and the rebels would have won anyway, since it was in the script.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Could be the Empire saving money... The armor got weaker when they changed Phase II to Stormtrooper (Phase III?), but the new one worked better in different weather conditions. But it was weaker. Thus the naming "body bag". 

Would be no surprise if the training quality was lowered.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Regarding the Ewoks...
> 
> Was it not the 501st that defended the shield generator? Well, the 501st was the ONLY legion which remained Jango clone only. So they just seem to suck hard.


Doesnt matter if all the clones were jango himself - they were being led by an utter moron who clearly wasnt a jango clone and thats the reason why they failed.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well I for one still belive SW whole Galaxy vs Imperium as its whole is a very close match. The whole 40K universe thing vs SW I dont care how bad SW gets crushed simply becuase its very Unfluffy for more than 2 of many races would ever work together. I posted and showed the Sources and in the end its a 40k Website and Im content that most have looked at it and learn a bit more than the six movies.




laviathan13089 said:


> Ok, heres my take on this. in order to make the arguement somewhat feasable we have to get rid of certain "exceptions to the rule". meaning, darth vader, emperor palpatine, starkiller, luke skywalker, the primarchs, the emperor, draigo, marneus calgar, castellan creed, the ctan, fateweaver, ssd's deathstars blackstone fortresses, planet killers, all the named characters or special equipment in either universe, need to be exluded.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Could be the Empire saving money... The armor got weaker when they changed Phase II to Stormtrooper (Phase III?), but the new one worked better in different weather conditions. But it was weaker. Thus the naming "body bag".
> 
> Would be no surprise if the training quality was lowered.


2 reasons why they failed. 
1) The Jango Clones were being less and less awsome as the Genetic Sample was being strained. Alot of Clones were not up to par of the originals, the Clone Wars make mention of this. 
2) The Empire went having X wing Fighter and bad ass Tie Fighter/A-Wings Jedi fighters to ..... Tie Fighters.... Thats like a Humvee being upgraded to a Mini Cooper. It doesnt compare. Same with their Mandalorian Battle Proven Armor/Weapons to the MKII that was more Eviromental friendly and crap.

Also as someone added they were the badguys... ofcourse they lost.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Now, with regards to space battles, the biggest thing that Star Wars DOES have going for it (since with regards to size/quantity/firepower 40K wins) are individual fighters.

While 40K vessels do have anti-missile fire, however these do not strike me as mobile enough to accurately and reliably track small/fast snubfighters. X-wings, A-wings, K-wings, whatever, most of them are too agile to be taken out by targeting systems and servitors that are built with the intention of taking down missiles travelling in a straight line.

Firepower capabilities of these fighters, primarily proton torpedoes, would be the biggest game changer. Not only would the SW universe have hundreds, if not thousands, of small fighters (even TIEs) darting circles around the cumbersome 40K vessels, those small ships would have the firepower to actually significantly damage both the engines and the weapons of the larger 40K ships. Stranding the behemoths or making them immobile makes them much easier targets to take out.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

That why 40k has the bigger guns but SW has more fighter types. 9/10s of the SW ships are Carriers. 4/10 of 40k ships are that. Even then most Space Battles are big ships firing on eachother or ship to ship battle. SW battles are mostly fighters bringing down Larger Ships. Its very close call.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Two things I happen to have noticed are: 
1) why are Star Wars vs Imperium threads so popular
2) the one area star wars has the Imperium completely stamped into the ground, no contest is video games:grin::grin::grin: all the Imperium can offer is DofW & fire warrior where's SW have battlefront, Lego, force unleashed etc etc


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well as awsome as the Table Game is and BL books are, sad fact is all 40k has beyond that is 2 great Games (DoW1, DoW2), 1 crappy game (Fire Warrior), mutiple games none remebers any more (Space Hulk, ect, insert what I never seen), and a VERY horrible movie.... Thats it.
SW has 6 movies, 2 hit series (Clone Wars Animated, Clone Wars CGI), mutiple Graphic Novels/Comics, as many books as SM books, and more #1 hit games than I can type. Force Unleshed 1/2, Red Commander, Republic Comando, Shadows of the Empire, Jedi Academy, KotOR 1/2/3, Star Fighter, SOOO many more....
SW also has alot of indepth info unlike GW 40k that simply is too lazy to list specs for BFG and likes to make up new stuff in a non progressing storyline....


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Should the sisters of battle not get representation in this? as they are a military force, supposed to be on par almost with space marines at army size. jsut saying. on an army to army level they would tip the balance in 40ks favor. cadiasn vs clones, gk vs jedi sith, sm vs.. and so on and so forth,


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I think Star Wars is the only other series where people can't actually just simply say that the Imperium with uberwtfpwnage the opposing empire because the Empire in SW is roughly the same as the Imperium in 40K (as far as size, tech, manpower, etc), but the Empire has better weapons in my opinion, hence, the Death Star.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm pretty sure we can all at least agree with one thing: Trekkies are homos.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

From *Codex: Star Wars*, page 72:


*JAR JAR BINKS.................175 Points*

*WS*:2 *BS*:2 *S*:3 *T*:2 *W*:2 *I*:4 *A*:1 *Ld*:3 *Sv*:6+

*Unit Composition: 
•* 1 (Unique)

*Unit Type: 
•* Infantry

*Wargear:
•* Big Floppy Ears

*Special Rules:
•* Weesa Gonna Die?
*•* Too Annoying To Die
*•* Independent Character
*•* Mindless


*Weesa Gonna Die?*: Jar Jar's innate cowardice means he treats all combat situations as potentially fatal and will attempt to hide behind any allied units whenever possible. If any friendly units are within 6" Jar Jar automatically benefits from a 2+ cover save. 

*Too Annoying To Die*: No matter how much you wish he'd go away and _stay_ gone, for some reason he keeps turning up in the films, like a fresh steaming grox turd falling into your favourite Ming vase. Unfortunately, Jar Jar counts as having the Feel No Pain special rule.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

the average GK would stomp the average Jedi (IMO of course)

as I pointed out in another thread, if an _unarmed_ Jango Fett could take out 4 Jedi armed with lightsabres, I don't think a GK _in power armour with a nemesis weapon and stormbolter_ would have any problem with one

if you want to argue that Mace Windu or Yoda would beat a GK Grandmaster...OK maybe, but average Jedi are total rubbish compared to average GK

high-level Jedi are amazing, yes...but your run-of-the-mill Jedi knight is quite lame



Svartmetall said:


> From *Codex: Star Wars*, page 72:
> *JAR JAR BINKS.................175 Points*
> 
> *WS*:2 *BS*:2 *S*:3 *T*:2 *W*:2 *I*:4 *A*:1 *Ld*:3 *Sv*:6+
> ...


this my friend is hilarious, bravo


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> From *Codex: Star Wars*, page 72:
> 
> 
> *JAR JAR BINKS.................175 Points*
> ...


You forgot to add his special rule for killing anything on a 3+ in a 12 inch radius due to his BS luck


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