# Is 40k popular because of xenophobia?



## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

40k definitely stands out against other sci-fi settings. The superficial stuff is obviously the cyber-gothic aesthetics and semi medieval power armour, but I reckon the recism/xenophobia that the setting is mired in is just as appealing the people as the space marines clunking around. Or rather, they go hand in hand.

Consider the other major sci-fi settings that a kid/teenager is offered today-Mass Effect, Star Wars, Star Trek and a whole lot other ones show conflict between humanity and alien races and bad and solvable by simply talking things over. In 40k you simply get handed a power sword and get told to kill everything that's not like you.

Do you guys reckon that it's an appealing part of the backstory? It definitely forms the core of the fluff ("In the grim darkness of the future, there's only war"), where there's no compromise, no misunderstandings and it's ok to hate other beings who in any other situation are just as sentient, rational and mature as you are.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think so. Not for the majority.

There's a lot of human on human conflict--namely for the normal reasons, resources, territory, beliefs, and just wanting a better cut of the pie.

Though I guess you could boil it down to xenophobia. Anything that's different from us, whether that be Ork, Eldar, or a human who has different beliefs, needs to be exterminated completely and utterly.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

While it's true that the universe of 40k is heavily mired in xenophobia, I personally think it's not a drawing factor for the majority of people.


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, xenophobia, intolerance and RACISM! Misogyny too, why not.

...
....
No, actually it's just cool Space Marines, Guard soldiers, aliens, kickass weapons, etc.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

VixusKragov said:


> While it's true that the universe of 40k is heavily mired in xenophobia, I personally think it's not a drawing factor for the majority of people.


What about you?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

The aliens want to kill the humans just as much as they want to kill them and not to mention each other.
Also they hate other species, not other races (except unsanctioned mutants), for instance vulkan is black and the Great Khan is asian.
The mutants are also peculiar in the sense that apparently the imperium didnt really mind them before the Heresy but after the Heresy they really cracked down on them.
I think, say if the great crusade had worked the imperium of man would have slowly become more and more inviting to other races, its just because since Old night mankind was besieged by all types of Aliens seeking to destroy and enslave them, so its natural for them to regard them as a threat.
the Heresy itself showed that even minor deviations from the norm and slight differences in opinion (lorgar worshiping the emperor, Magnus and his quest for knowledge) could lead people to defy the emperor, chaos found ways of perverting even the most innocent of endeavours.
just my 2 cents


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Please look up the definition of xenophobia before you use it. As with any -phobia, xenophobia entails an *unreasonable* fear of anything that is foreign or strange. It's not just "Oh, they hate aliens, they must be xenophobic" - that's a twisted definition. In 40k, humanity's fear of the alien is absolutely reasonable. If you haven't noticed, every alien species in the Milky Way is equipped to eradicate the human race. Every alien species in the Milky Way is *willing* to eradicate the human race, so long as doing so will advance their own goals. 40k is a simplified setting because it's designed for a tabletop *war*game; IPs like Mass Effect and Star Trek can afford to give sentient aliens more depth and complexity, because they're more about adventure and/or discovery.

From fear comes hatred (thanks, Yoda!), and thus, hatred of the alien is also justified. Because of the aforementioned lack of depth and complexity, alien races generally display one of two attitudes towards humanity: 1) apathy or 2) arrogance. Both attitudes mean that there's very little hesitation when slaying people; why should humans feel any differently? There are rare examples of cooperation and diplomacy, but only when both sides gain something and, in most cases, one side ends up betraying the other anyways. The longest and most sturdy alliance in the galaxy is between the Imperium of Man and the Mechanicus of Mars, and those are both human factions.

Now that we've established the Imperium is not really xenophobic - not by the real definition of the word - we can't say that xenophobia draws people to 40k. As if it were ever appealing in the first place...

Edit: Off-topic, where'd you find that avatar, Sturm? I never thought a spoon could be a viable weapon in 40k .


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I think it is a draw of sorts.

Not in the direct "I love [insert nationality/race/sexuality/ideology] bashing and 40k speaks to my hateful inner core" but more like another buttress to this oversweeping background of bleakness where open-mindedness is viewed with disgust and compassion equates to weakness.

In a genre that contains a lot of 'let bygones be bygones'-verses the exploration of the darker elements of the human psyche by 40k are compelling (certainly for me).

note: though no doubt there is a niche of fans who are delighted to project their own bigoted beliefs in this realm of gothic sci-fi, more power to them...you know as long as they never try to interact with me on any level whatsoever.


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## jonileth (Feb 1, 2012)

There are a great many sci-fi stories out there that have the same xenophobic theme to them in various degrees. The fact that humanity, in the 40K Universe, are so prone to xenophobia is because of the dogmatic system of rule they are subjected to. If you are born and raised to view something a certain way and don't have the opportunity (or fear the consequences) to form your own opinion about the way the Universe works, then you are convinced that it is the way things must be.

The Imperium is xenophobic by our standards, I'll agree. It isn't, however, xenophobic as far as their point of view is concerned. The children of the God-Emperor are fighting to survive. The rest of the galaxy wages just a hard pitched a battle against men as they do against the aliens. Add to the mix the agents of Chaos, the Tyranids who just hate everything that isn't part of the Hive Mind, and you basically have the makings for a justification for mankind being the way it is.

Now granted, some races (Eldar and Tau) are not strictly militaristic and can at intervals be reasoned with, made allies of, and provide some mutually beneficial service to the Imperium, but those instances are mired by generations of conflict and an inability for either side to come to some general agreement that will broker a lasting peace. The Eldar don't want to give up what little they have to human colonization, and the Imperium isn't handing over anything to them. The Tau wish to expand and spread their dogma to the galaxy, which comes into direct conflict with the Imperial Cult and everything they stand for. So while it is POSSIBLE for humanity to work with the aliens, it is only under mutual duress that people can find themselves working side by side with someone that doesn't 'look like they do' as was mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Those that aren't able or interested in destroying humanity often find work in the Guard. Look at the Jokaero or the Ogryn.

That said, its not an unreasonable hatred of xenos, at least, not all of them.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Iron Angel said:


> Those that aren't able or interested in destroying humanity often find work in the Guard. Look at the Jokaero or the Ogryn.
> 
> That said, its not an unreasonable hatred of xenos, at least, not all of them.


Indeed. The Jokaero have proven to be very useful to mankind and ogryns are not aliens or mutants of Chaos, but rather simple abhumans that appeared through evolution.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Technically, they aren't from earth, so they still count as aliens in my opinion.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Edit: Off-topic, where'd you find that avatar, Sturm? I never thought a spoon could be a viable weapon in 40k .


Pretty sure he got it from Gone with the Blastwave. Awesome comic that isn't updated anymore. At least that's where the character is from.



Sturmovic said:


> What about you?


I came for the power armory shenanigans, and stayed for the mind bullets.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I don't really think that is a factor. 
It is just the least ... squishy. In the era of Harry Potter and such stuff (My generation this is) Where literally love actually is a conquoring force. I just found that sick to my stomach, so when I was finally revealed to a world full of tragedy and strife where arrogance, jealousy and bitterness literally caused gods to wage war upon one another, that's where I decided "damn, this stuff isn't bad".

Also what I think appeals to many people and certainly appealed to me was the entire universe, the factor of another dimension (the warp) having the psychic powers and travel and daemons and all was so damn awesome, also just the armour and the marines and the Heresy and the Eldar and the Necrons and just hell all the fluff just makes my eyes sparkle with awe. So I don't think that xenophobia is a factor. 

What I think you are doing here is drawing a correlation between two unrelated points, how can I explain this? Ok say for example you do a study between the average numbers of pieces of clothes people wear and sales of ice cream, when it is hot people wear less clothes and buy more ice cream, so there would be a strong correlation between a decline in pieces of clothing worn and an increase in ice cream sales, but that really doesn't mean that if you take away someones clothes they are more likely to want ice cream does it!? 

In the same way what you have done is said "many people like warhammer 40k and it is very xenophobic, so it must mean that it attracts many people because it is xenophobic" No I really don't think that's correct in any way mate. 

Man this post was even more of a shambles than usual, but I hope at least one of my poitns got across.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hey cegorach what does your avatar say?


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

cegorach said:


> I don't really think that is a factor.
> It is just the least ... squishy. In the era of Harry Potter and such stuff (My generation this is) Where literally love actually is a conquoring force. I just found that sick to my stomach, so when I was finally revealed to a world full of tragedy and strife where arrogance, jealousy and bitterness literally caused gods to wage war upon one another, that's where I decided "damn, this stuff isn't bad".
> 
> Also what I think appeals to many people and certainly appealed to me was the entire universe, the factor of another dimension (the warp) having the psychic powers and travel and daemons and all was so damn awesome, also just the armour and the marines and the Heresy and the Eldar and the Necrons and just hell all the fluff just makes my eyes sparkle with awe. So I don't think that xenophobia is a factor.
> ...


^^^^^^^^ All of this


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

cegorach said:


> I don't really think that is a factor.
> It is just the least ... squishy. In the era of Harry Potter and such stuff (My generation this is) Where literally love actually is a conquoring force. I just found that sick to my stomach, so when I was finally revealed to a world full of tragedy and strife where arrogance, jealousy and bitterness literally caused gods to wage war upon one another, that's where I decided "damn, this stuff isn't bad".
> 
> Also what I think appeals to many people and certainly appealed to me was the entire universe, the factor of another dimension (the warp) having the psychic powers and travel and daemons and all was so damn awesome, also just the armour and the marines and the Heresy and the Eldar and the Necrons and just hell all the fluff just makes my eyes sparkle with awe. So I don't think that xenophobia is a factor.
> ...


Quote for MOTHERFUCKIN TRUTH


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

cegorach said:


> I don't really think that is a factor.
> It is just the least ... squishy. In the era of Harry Potter and such stuff (My generation this is) Where literally love actually is a conquoring force. I just found that sick to my stomach, so when I was finally revealed to a world full of tragedy and strife where arrogance, jealousy and bitterness literally caused gods to wage war upon one another, that's where I decided "damn, this stuff isn't bad".


I kinda agree-40k is the only world where peace and understanding aren't options, and the player/reader is encouraged to MAIM KILL BURN on order to get the most out of it.



cegorach said:


> Also what I think appeals to many people and certainly appealed to me was the entire universe, the factor of another dimension (the warp) having the psychic powers and travel and daemons and all was so damn awesome, also just the armour and the marines and the Heresy and the Eldar and the Necrons and just hell all the fluff just makes my eyes sparkle with awe. So I don't think that xenophobia is a factor. .


Think of how much the aesthetics of 40k depend on the malevolence of their races-the Space Marines, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks aren't new or exclusive to the setting. What gives them their zing is their brutality. 

It's the difference between this 
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawik...lar_Marine.png/200px-Black_Templar_Marine.png

and this 

http://kingmong.deviantart.com/art/Kill-The-Heretic-43750738?q=gallery:kingmong/4310147&qo=8


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Please look up the definition of xenophobia before you use it. As with any -phobia, xenophobia entails an *unreasonable* fear of anything that is foreign or strange. It's not just "Oh, they hate aliens, they must be xenophobic" - that's a twisted definition. In 40k, humanity's fear of the alien is absolutely reasonable. If you haven't noticed, every alien species in the Milky Way is equipped to eradicate the human race. Every alien species in the Milky Way is *willing* to eradicate the human race, so long as doing so will advance their own goals. 40k is a simplified setting because it's designed for a tabletop *war*game; IPs like Mass Effect and Star Trek can afford to give sentient aliens more depth and complexity, because they're more about adventure and/or discovery.


Huh, I just used it without the "unreasonable" bit attached.





Davidicus 40k;1192191Edit: Off-topic said:


> http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&global=1&q=3d+spoon#/dpioev
> 
> "It's all we could find. sir"


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Sturmovic said:


> Huh, I just used it without the "unreasonable" bit attached.


That's why I wanted to point it out, lol. The "unreasonable" bit is actually the only bit that matters. Without it, it's not a phobia.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

What should we call it instead?Xenohate? Speciest? 

Does it really matter?

Sorry if this came across dickish (honestly not my intention) I just don't see why it matters.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I became interested in 40k because of the amazing look of the characters etc.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Davidicus 40k said:


> That's why I wanted to point it out, lol. The "unreasonable" bit is actually the only bit that matters. Without it, it's not a phobia.


Well, I've found a few online dictionaries that omit the "unreasonable" bit, so maybe there's room for manouver. Plus you're telling me English doesn't have a word for justified xenophobia?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

VixusKragov said:


> What should we call it instead?Xenohate? Speciest?
> 
> Does it really matter?
> 
> Sorry if this came across dickish (honestly not my intention) I just don't see why it matters.


Normally, no, it wouldn't matter, but since society has foolishly decided to put more stock into certain words than is necessary, it does matter. Xenophobia, among certain other words, has very negative connotations, partly because the definition has been twisted (i.e. omitting the "unreasonable" part), thus allowing the word to be thrown around quite liberally.

It's a cheap shot, basically.

You don't need a specific term for it, but something like "anti-xeno", "intolerance", or "human supremacy" would be more accurate (the last of which only when discussing the Imperial viewpoint as a whole).


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I believe one of the more academic terms for the belief is "manifest destiny."


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> hey cegorach what does your avatar say?


Apologies for the "off topic"-ness. But the annotation underneath "the laughing god" reads : "If Joker really is the laughing God, Kurze is Batman and the Warp is Arkham Asylum then LET'S GET THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD"

Although if I am completely honest I had totally forgotton and couldn't even find the picture untill about four seconds ago. Lucky really I thought I had lost it ages ago. But on consideration maybe having illegible text is not such a good idea as an avatar.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I believe it's more the grim setting for most and xenophobia is just an aspect of that but not the draw in itself. Most sci-fi settings do not incorporate the themes of ignorance, hopelessness, ultra-oppressive religion, and war without end. These are the things that make 40K unique and interesting to me.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I have to say the reason I fell in love with it was because of the awesome tech of the Tau.
The reason why I fell out of love with it would be_ Dead Men Walking_, that book is just plain depressing, even for a 40k book, I mean I know 40k is suppose to be hopeless, 

but not even small victory of we killed a strong necron, even if it is for a short time. I mean it was just pure your f#@$ 6 ways till Sunday.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

I've always found it to be a little too "H:FY!" for my tastes.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

I love 40k for the Kill maim Burn aspect. I also like commisars executing their own men. Thats what sets it apart from lots of other stuff that is too "clean" for me. To me IG is 40k.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

The xenophobia is just part of the grimdark, which is a major reason for the settings success. Mass Effect and Stark Trek especially are both upbeat and optimistic. Even Star Wars is fairly idyllic. 40k, not so much.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I personally feel that the xenophobia of it does have a certain appeal to people. Thats not to say that they, or I suppose its we now, are racist or xenophobic ourselves but we can appreciate the picture painted before us in Warhammer 40k.

In several texts that I have come across regarding the Imperium and its policies its worth noting that Humanity is no xenophobic for petty reasons but rather it is a requirement if they are to survive. Virtually every alien race that Humanity has encountered it hostile to them in some way, shape, or form. Ranging from the malicious mind-games of the Eldar to the savage brutality of the Orks, from the faith-dissolving ideals of the Tau to the hunger of the Tyranids. If Humanity tried to embrace any of these xeno they would utterly collapse.

In our own world I feel that there does exist a level of xenophobia by every person no matter how supposedly 'pure' you are. Yet our current political landscape and assumed socially acceptable attitudes do not permit you to express them out of fear of being shunned by those around you -- or in some cases, embraced by those you'd otherwise not wish to associate with.

I personally enjoy the xenophobia of the Imperium because it represents a sense of pressure for the Imperium. They are surronded on all sides, and everything wants to knock them (the big guy) off the hill and they are literallly sacrificing trillions to make sure it doesn't happen. Then again, I tend to enjoy being surronded on all sides and requiring to fight my way out of it.


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## Phal4nx (Apr 4, 2012)

Personally, I'm just fed up of dwarves, wizards, magic and bows and arrows.  I want guns! Lots of guns!


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Harriticus said:


> Mass Effect and Stark Trek especially are both upbeat and optimistic.


You didn't play the latest Mass Effect, did you? :laugh:


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