# What would it take for chaos to win



## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

I started thinking about this thanks to a previous thread about the state of the universe should chaos 'win', and it got me thinking, what would it take?
what kind of numbers, leaders, alliances, and strikes would they need to make to ensure victory- and i mean 'knock daddy off the chair' victory. how many traitor-legions? what aid from the chaos gods and what kind of tactical moves would they need to employ to beat the imperium. you be the warmaster, what would you do?


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

The death of the Emperor, another Warmaster as promising as Horus to replace Faildabbon, mass Warp storms to cut off large number of Imperial sectors around the Eye of Terror, the corruption of at least half of the Space Marines/Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy, the Chaos Primachs actually doing something, and the elimination of the Inquisition basically.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I think Chaos has already won, they got what they wanted out of the Horus Heresy and are quite happy to keep it ticking along. 
Whatever the Emperor's long term motives were He was doing a great job at wiping out religion across the galaxy, the Chaos powers fought back and won. They brought back religion and superstition and ingrained it into the Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I think Chaos has already won, they got what they wanted out of the Horus Heresy and are quite happy to keep it ticking along.
> Whatever the Emperor's long term motives were He was doing a great job at wiping out religion across the galaxy, the Chaos powers fought back and won. They brought back religion and superstition and ingrained it into the Imperium.


I agree.

And as for what they would have to do to topple the Imperium? Nothing. They could easily relent all attacks by chaos forces and the Imperium would still eventually topple.

As it stands though the 13th Black Crusade (which saw the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself) has devastated the Imperium and the Despoiler stands poised to claim the Cadian Gate for his own, thus ushering in a new age of unrelenting chaos incursions with the very real possibility of laying siege to the Sol System itself.

One only needs to look beyond the already formidable and unrelenting xenos threats to see that the doom of the Imperium cannot be avoided; _The Night of a Thousand Rebellions_, _The Great Awakening_, the failing of the Golden Throne Et cetera.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Plus i still think the Imperium and indeed all life in the milky way is screwed once the Tyranids arrive proper. Necrons aside, although they won't have anything to kill so back to sleep for them


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

To be less chaotic and be more organized.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

GW to go in to near bankruptcy would help the chaos cause. As they would have a field day to raise funds i'm sure.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

it would take the fall of the Ultramarines, and the complete unity of the chaos gods.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

It would simply take the Emperor to die, which he is, slowly but surely thanks toa fault in the golden throne. Yes he's reborn but on a feudal world cut off from humanity. Once the golden throne fails him, all the ships are cut off, thousands die, fleets crash and everyone’s cut off. If the Emperor rises, he won't be able to get back to Terra, and even if he managed that, there is no chance of him remaking the Golden Throne before the Imperium is torn apart worse than with the Heresy when every alien species, not dependant on the Astromonican invades isolated defenceless planets.

This needn't even be the end of it. The Emperor could be reborn and then grow up to take his place on terra again but the damage done before hand would be astronomical (forgive the mild pun) and chaos would no longer need to topple him as much as, poke the Imperium and watch it collapse with mild amusement. He couldn’t even be a demi-god, he’d either die like the CMs suspect or have to remain on the Throne to keep the Imperium alive

Imagine the damage done to the Space Marines and Guardsmen. Fleet chapters, even travelling companies will be lost as will every regiment in the warp, and given the proportionate time they spend in warp travel to the amount of time spent in real space this would damn most of them.

Funny isn’t it, all this talk of Russ and the end times, and a new Eldar god and Vulkans return. All this about the final battle and its already won. On the topic of Eldar, they need every soul for their new god right? Well, I’ve read enough stories where their soul stones are cracked, eaten or when Tyranids plug into the wraithbone and sap its energy. So, well, no real hope for that one then.


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

so its the general consensus that chaos has already won, alright. so what wouls be the next move, would they simply sit back and wait for humanity to fall apart? where would be the most appropriate place to begin a tactical insursion, or would they just, as you say, 'poke' away until the imperium implodes?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

stooge92 said:


> so its the general consensus that chaos has already won, alright. so what wouls be the next move, would they simply sit back and wait for humanity to fall apart? where would be the most appropriate place to begin a tactical insursion, or would they just, as you say, 'poke' away until the imperium implodes?


They can poke all they want, but don't forget, they've got each other to fight as well. They'll never be lonely. That's so sweet, isn't it?


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

In the immediate future two things...

1) Creed's Death
2) Someone to replace Abaddon


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> In the immediate future two things...
> 
> 1) Creed's Death
> 2) Someone to replace Abaddon


Abaddon's already beaten Creed really. Putting aside memes Creed's esssentially hanging on to 30% of Cadia Dunkirk-style. (Well maybe not beaten, but Creed's in a pickle right now) The Space actions may be a different story, but Abaddon's forces hold the advantage on the ground.

Creed is not as important as the rest of the sector's defenses really.

Currently for Chaos to beat the Imperium it would require perfect unity and full production of their military machine. Unfourtunately given the fact that it's well......... Chaos, they don't stay together for too long. Not even Abaddon can completely unite everybody.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Less spikes, more guns!


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Gree said:


> Abaddon's already beaten Creed really. Putting aside memes Creed's esssentially hanging on to 30% of Cadia Dunkirk-style. (Well maybe not beaten, but Creed's in a pickle right now) The Space actions may be a different story, but Abaddon's forces hold the advantage on the ground.
> 
> Creed is not as important as the rest of the sector's defenses really.


"Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!!!" 
_--Abaddon after his 13th black failure_.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

DestroyerHive said:


> Less spikes, more guns!


Let's hope they're not smart enough to combine the two and create spike-firing guns.

And just because it's so damn catchy: "Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!!!"


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> "Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!!!"
> _--Abaddon after his 13th black failure_.


How has he failed? 

Of course that's putting aside the fact that's the 13th is still ongoing with Creed barely holding on to Cadia Dunkirk-style.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

The fact that chaos can't pop through the eye of terror at will is proof enough that chaos hasn't won...


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> The fact that chaos can't pop through the eye of terror at will is proof enough that chaos hasn't won...


How is that proof that they have not won? Raiders can get through the Eye fine when they need to, it's only the huge Chaos invasions that need to clear the Cadian Gate( And they often do, if Abaddon's victory at Mackan is any indication.)

They have't destroyed the Imperium yet (Nor will they ever because of the timeline freeze) however they've had their fair share of sucesses and victories.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The Thirteenth Crusade is the determining factor in my opinion. Though you could argue both sides, that Abaddon hasn't completely won, or he has, if Abaddon isn't able to achieve complete dominance of Cadia, I think he will never be able to strike a blow like that to the Imperium again. 

Very vaguely, but non the less it is seen that Abaddon is losing support of the Chaos legions. Triumphing on Cadia will determine whether he truly can triumph over the Imperium, and also either establish dominance over the chaos forces completely or just push them further away.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The Thirteenth Crusade is the determining factor in my opinion. Though you could argue both sides, that Abaddon hasn't completely won, or he has, if Abaddon isn't able to achieve complete dominance of Cadia, I think he will never be able to strike a blow like that to the Imperium again.
> 
> Very vaguely, but non the less it is seen that Abaddon is losing support of the Chaos legions. Triumphing on Cadia will determine whether he truly can triumph over the Imperium, and also either establish dominance over the chaos forces completely or just push them further away.



A very logical and well thought out answer! +rep


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Imperious said:


> A very logical and well thought out answer! +rep


Why thank you.:victory: There has been much discussion over what the other heretics believe in the Strength of Abaddon's support. Now, the magnitude of his support is undeniable. I mean even the next big force would be the Word Bearers legion which many know is 1/10 the size of the Black Legion. The only problem is that I don't believe the Black Legion is as united as many may seem to believe. After all, its a bunch of warbands looking for the highest bidder. 

We see that even despite a vessel belonging to the Iron Warriors, the legion basically tolled out, the Word Bearers are thinking about a new "purge", The Night Lord's prophet isn't very fond of Abaddon. And much of the dedicated legions are with their primarchs and their greater game.

These legions support to the fullest, is what Abaddon really needs to get in order to really triumph and get to Terra. And even with this much support, it maybe still questionable. 

I also look at the largest component of Abaddon's force which is pretty much renegade chapters. If Abaddon doesn't get victory in Cadia, these chapters can't really go "oh well... maybe next year" like the Chicago Cubs. Whatever these chapters and warbands lost in terms of number and resourse, they are most likely never going to get back. So what Honsou and the "Warsmith" did by tolling out for the legion made some sense. Towards the grander scheme of things, yes Abaddon's Crusades have taken effect, however, these warbands and chapters don't want to used up for the Black Legion's cannon fodder either.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Whatever these chapters and warbands lost in terms of number and resourse, they are most likely never going to get back. So what Honsou and the "Warsmith" did by tolling out for the legion made some sense. Towards the grander scheme of things, yes Abaddon's Crusades have taken effect, however, these warbands and chapters don't want to used up for the Black Legion's cannon fodder either.


In this part they actually may have no choice. Abaddon recived a huge amount of geneseed from the Iron Warriors as a result of the seige in Storm of Iron. If anyone has the resources to create new Astartes (Other than Fabius Bile and he's strictly neutral) it's Abaddon. If these warbands ever wish to recoup their losses Abaddon has the most geneseed of anybody.



ckcrawford said:


> The only problem is that I don't believe the Black Legion is as united as many may seem to believe. After all, its a bunch of warbands looking for the highest bidder.


I would hesitate to term all of the Black Legionaries as mere mercenary bidders. Their Index Astartes article talks about how Abaddon maintains discipline with fear and brutality in addition to his own leadership abilities. Some may be in for the short term sucess, others may be geninuely loyal to Abaddon in his role as Horus's sucessor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The Thirteenth Crusade is the determining factor in my opinion. Though you could argue both sides, that Abaddon hasn't completely won, or he has, if Abaddon isn't able to achieve complete dominance of Cadia, I think he will never be able to strike a blow like that to the Imperium again.


Why? He has all the time in the universe... The Imperium doesn't.

Let us also not forget that the 13th Black Crusade is the most threatening and devastating war faced by the Imperium since the Heresy itself, as seen by the fact that the most Imperial forces were mobilised for Abaddon's Crusade than any other war in the 10,000 years since Horus' rebellion.



ckcrawford said:


> Very vaguely, but non the less it is seen that Abaddon is losing support of the Chaos legions. Triumphing on Cadia will determine whether he truly can triumph over the Imperium, and also either establish dominance over the chaos forces completely or just push them further away.


Actually the codicies state that Abaddon is still gaining support. Every attack, war and raid posed by his forces results in him gaining support - because of his success.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

> Why? He has all the time in the universe... The Imperium doesn't.


I don't think he has all the time in the universe. While it's true he doesn't have to worry about aging, he is far from immortal. Then there's the other reality... How much more failure will the ruinous powers tolerate. I'm betting not much more.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> I don't think he has all the time in the universe. .


Why not? He does't age. He can always retreat to the Eye where time distorts and is safe from Imperial counterattack. Meanwhile the Imperium is under constant pressure. As long as he does't take any stupid risks he should be fine.

Plus the Chaos Codex talks about his the Gods have a plan for Abaddon. He is'nt dying anytime soon.



Imperious said:


> Then there's the other reality... How much more failure will the ruinous powers tolerate. I'm betting not much more.


How many times has his failed? The 13th is still ongoing, the 12th was a draw (Abaddon's real objective was just the Blackstones) Black Crusade 1st and 2nd where repulsed, but we have no idea of Abaddon's objectives. The rest of the Black Crusades are largely unknown as regard to objectives, location, strategies, forces and battles fought.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

> Why not? He does't age. He can always retreat to the Eye where time distorts and is safe from Imperial counterattack. Meanwhile the Imperium is under constant pressure. As long as he does't take any stupid risks he should be fine.


I know. Re-read my post. I said he doesn't have to worry about aging.



> How many times has his failed? The 13th is still ongoing, the 12th was a draw (Abaddon's real objective was just the Blackstones) Black Crusade 1st and 2nd where repulsed, but we have no idea of Abaddon's objectives. The rest of the Black Crusades are largely unknown as regard to objectives, location, strategies, forces and battles fought.


Re-check your sources. It is widely accepted that the previous Black Attempts were all previous Black Failures. The current and ongoing 13th Black Attempt is currently in a Black Stalemate (with a slight and yet distinct Imperial advantage). Abaddon forces have control on the ground (for the first time BTW). The Imperium, however, controls the space around it. Meaning they have 2 definitive advantages: 1) the ability to resupply and reinforce and 2) orbital bombardment. 

{Cue Astartes to save the day}

It doesn't take a sanctioned psyker to see that this will not end well for Abaddon. That being said I never realized how tolerant of incompetence and failure the Ruinous Powers are. They should be called the Nurturous Powers. I can see the dark gods right now saying "Don't worry little Abby. You're still our favorite. If at first you don't succeed try, try again. And again, again, and again. Try again. And again and again. Awww you'll get it eventually! Don't worry, you won't age here in the warp" 
***all the while patting little Abby on the head and as he weeps and curses "creeed!" in a soft whisper under his breath***


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

It would take them finding some way to beat us Space Wolves. They would have to deal with us Son's Of Russ to win anything. As long as one of our heroic warriors stands our saga's shall burn bright and Chaos will be beaten. 

Plus our venerated Primarch shall return at the Wolftime and strike Chaos down.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Imperious said:


> Re-check your sources. It is widely accepted that the previous Black Attempts were all previous Black Failures. The current and ongoing 13th Black Attempt is currently in a Black Stalemate (with a slight and yet distinct Imperial advantage). Abaddon forces have control on the ground (for the first time BTW). The Imperium, however, controls the space around it. Meaning they have 2 definitive advantages: 1) the ability to resupply and reinforce and 2) orbital bombardment.
> 
> {Cue Astartes to save the day}
> 
> ...


Dam we really do need an 'Incorrect' buzzer from a game show because this quote is made of fail.

Abaddon won the 12th Black Crusade, the entire known objective was to capture the Blackstone Fortresses or deprive the Imperium of them- an objective that Chaos succeeded at.

The 13th Black Crusade is not only ongoing but because Abaddon basically controls Cadia the stream of reinforcements from the EoT is virtually unopposed.

It's only widely accepted that he has failed 13 times amongst the people who don't know any better, the same sort of people who think the Ultramarines fail 'because'.
We don't know each and every objective for the Black Crusades, none of them were intended to destroy the Imperium I'm sure of that.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Save the buzzer for yourself. Abbadon "goal" was to capture all the blackstone fortresses. Due to his defeat he had to _retreat_ with two of them back into the Eye. 

The fact remains that the Imperium controls the space around Cadia. 

Also I have no idea why you're referencing the ultramarines...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Imperious said:


> Save the buzzer for yourself. Abbadon "goal" was to capture all the blackstone fortresses. Due to his defeat he had to _retreat_ with two of them back into the Eye.
> 
> The fact remains that the Imperium controls the space around Cadia.
> 
> Also I have no idea why you're referencing the ultramarines...


It was an example of another form of faction hatred based upon ignorance for the most part. The Imperium has gained a slight victory in space but they don't conclusively hold the Cadian Gate.

So what if he retreated? He gained 2 Blackstone Fortresses and the others were lost to the Imperium, why would he duke it out with the more powerful Imperium, what on earth would that accomplish?


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Well I actually own _The 13th Black Crusade_ book. I'll recheck it, but I'm pretty sure it says that the goal of the 13th was to control Cadia and the Cadian Gate.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why? He has all the time in the universe... The Imperium doesn't.


He may have all the time in the world but I'm not sure about all the support he has mustered. Someone earlier mentioned that he governs his Black Legion with fear. To some extent it that could be true. But to the most powerful parts of his legion, especially the astartes part which after joining the ruinous powers are probably more fearless and arrogant, they for the most part have joined Abaddon because of respect and the fact that at least right now he represents some hope. 

As I stated earlier, the original legions, he has lost a lot of support from. Most of the support Abaddon has gained is more recent support from renegade chapters and warbands. 

It comes down to how much they are willing to sacrifice for Abaddon's Crusade. Some of the warbands maybe fanatically devoted to Abaddon. But I don't believe they are to the extent of getting themselves whipped out. After all, the warband leaders are arrogant and power hungry. In the over all scheme of things, I think that one day they hope to be stronger than Abaddon and maybe achieve immortality. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually the codicies state that Abaddon is still gaining support. Every attack, war and raid posed by his forces results in him gaining support - because of his success.


It would be interesting to know that despite all this support he is able to replenish himself back to his former strength. I'm sure that the losses he encountered during the 13th Crusade were massive. I'm not sure his more recent support is enough to fill in those gaps. Also would be interesting if Abaddon lost any support during the Black Crusade. The Chaos Codex is correct, but also a propaganda tool for the players. I don't have mine with me, but theres probably not much information on mishaps from the Despoiler.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> Re-check your sources. It is widely accepted that the previous Black Attempts were all previous Black Failures.


I'm afraid I can't seem to find that at all. Given the sheer lack of information on the Crusades it's hard to tell. I'm afriad I don't see how they where failures at all.



Imperious said:


> The current and ongoing 13th Black Attempt is currently in a Black Stalemate (with a slight and yet distinct Imperial advantage).


Actually the Eye of Terror Final newsletter notes that it's a slght _Chaos_ advantage.



Imperious said:


> The Imperium, however, controls the space around it. Meaning they have 2 definitive advantages: 1) the ability to resupply and reinforce and 2) orbital bombardment.


 The final newsletter refers to that as a ''small channel''. Also that's just the actual world of Cadia itself, you are forgetting the rest of the sector.



> The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, *only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia*.





> The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and *unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate*.


Even in the Space-Lane passage in the final newsletter they cast doubt on the ability of the Imperial Navy to hold on.



Imperious said:


> It doesn't take a sanctioned psyker to see that this will not end well for Abaddon.


Actually the Final newsletter is noting that the current Chaos holds are not going to regained anytime soon by the Imperium and that many worlds where lost to Chaos. It also notes that the hordes are spilling over in unprecedented numbers.



> Abaddon and his council of three have *outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn*. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.





> With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks into more Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.





> Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come





> Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants.


In all, the Final Newsletter presents Abaddon in a rather good position, The ''Death by a Thousand Cuts'' newsletter even mentains that he has aquired the ''Heart of Chaos'' and has made substantial gains around Cadia. The Imperium's position is not presented as optimistic at all.



Imperious said:


> That being said I never realized how tolerant of incompetence and failure the Ruinous Powers are.


Good thing Abaddon is not incompetent.:grin:



Imperious said:


> ***all the while patting little Abby on the head and as he weeps and curses "creeed!" in a soft whisper under his breath***


Is that why Creed's homeworld is a blasted wasteland with Creed himself is forced to give ground before Abaddon's minions?



Imperious said:


> Save the buzzer for yourself. Abbadon "goal" was to capture all the blackstone fortresses. Due to his defeat he had to _retreat_ with two of them back into the Eye.


That's not really a defeat. That's a draw, the Imperium's aim was to prevent him to captureing them all or to at least destroy them all before Abaddon escaped. They failed.



Imperious said:


> The fact remains that the Imperium controls the space around Cadia.


They maintain a small channel yes, but they are hard-pressed elsewhere.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Oooh! Look! I can copy and paste too! Probably not the best tactic in retrospect eh? Let's see what happens when you pick and choose items that you want to see...



> Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man


A foothold. That's it.



> While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope


Yup. It's still standing.



> The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground


The red says it all. Therefore the Imperium will resupply and reinforce. In a worst case scenario you know what happens to planets the Imperium loses control of? :bye: Exactly... :spiteful:

I'd try reading _The 13th Black Crusade_, the actual BL book and not just a PR campaign newsletter.

Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> Oooh! Look! I can copy and paste too! Probably not the best tactic in retrospect eh?


Oh, no, it's called using quotes, facts and logic.

And no, I think I've gotten plenty of ammunition. I've also noticed you've been unable to effectively respond to the vast majority of my points.



Imperious said:


> A foothold. That's it.


A foothold that has opened up the floodgates of the Cadian Gate and is forcing the Imperium into a very poor position. In any case they broke the Imperium's hold on it, perhaps forever according to the article.

Hardly ''that's it''



Imperious said:


> Yup. It's still standing.


Yes, with Chaos now firmly entrenched in the Cadian Sector for decades, if not centuries afterwords.



Imperious said:


> The red says it all. Therefore the Imperium will resupply and reinforce. In a worst case scenario you know what happens to planets the Imperium loses control of? :bye: Exactly... :spiteful:


Except you are also ignoring the part where the Navy it stretched thin and have only a small channel to supply the troops on the Cadia. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that their command of space is hardly total and that they are not going to get rid of the Chaos troops in this lifetime.

You seem to be the one who is ignoring peices and picking what he wants. 


Imperious said:


> I'd try reading _The 13th Black Crusade_, the actual BL book and not just a PR campaign newsletter.


Actually it's not exactly PR campaign newsletter, it's a detailed summary of what exactly happened to all parties at the end. And if the 13th Black Crusade book is anything like the Battle for Armageddon book that I have, then I think I'll decline. (In other words the book was not very helpful at all)

But if you have it then why don't you post quotes from it?

Oh, BTW, Facts> Memes.:grin:


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

> You seem to be the one who is ignoring peices and picking what he wants.


Yes. I am demonstrating exactly what you did prior to my post, to show you picking and choosing only what you want is worthless. 

I own the book. I am not going to type extracts for you.



> And if the 13th Black Crusade book is anything like the Battle for Armageddon book that I have, then I think I'll decline


Then you are choosing to ignore canon.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> Yes. I am demonstrating exactly what you did prior to my post, to show you picking and choosing only what you want is worthless.


Good thing that's not what I did.:biggrin:

I have made arguments and backed them all up. I don't recall ignoring anything, I countered all of your arguments and you are seemingly unable to perform an effective response.



Imperious said:


> I own the book. I am not going to type extracts for you.


Funny, I went to the trouble of locating the newsletter and used it's quotes to support my arguments. And now you seemingly can't quote it to support your arguments?

Since you are unable to support your argument with facts I'm afriad I'm going to have to ignore you on this one.



Imperious said:


> Then you are choosing to ignore canon.


Actually, that's what you seem to be doing. If there is anything in the 13th Black Crusade book that can help with the topic at hand then I'd like to read it.

Otherwise I'm going to assume you are unable to respond and are now resorting to petty snipes.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

I found the same newsletter you did online and took quotes out of context just like you did. Stating that you are ignoring canon because you're not interested in the book is not a "snipe", it's a fact you mentioned in your own post. If you'd like to read the book then buy it and read it. I'm not going to type entire passages for you. 

At this point I'll assume you're trolling since you no longer have any intelligent comebacks and are now reduced to "I know you are but what am I?"


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> I found the same newsletter you did online and took quotes out of context just like you did.


When did I take the quotes out of context? I acknowledged all of your quotes then pointed out the flaws in your arguments using quotes of my own.



Imperious said:


> Stating that you are ignoring canon because you're not interested in the book is not a "snipe", it's a fact


Actually I would gladly read the book If I could get my hands on it. Unfourtunately I don't.



Imperious said:


> If you'd like to read the book then buy it and read it.


I'm not going to spend somethign like $50 on an out of print book for an internet argument that I already hold the upper hand already.



Imperious said:


> I I'm not going to type entire passages for you.


Then at this point I'm going to assume that nothing in the book contridicts what I am saying.



Imperious said:


> At this point I'll assume you're trolling since you no longer have any intelligent comebacks and are now reduced to "I know you are but what am I?"


Nah, your behavior here is trolling. I've made reasoned arguments and backed them all up. You've failed to do so.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Your last response is clear enough that you are a troll. I am done with you.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Imperious said:


> Your last response is clear enough that you are a troll. I am done with you.


Likewise with you, although I've think I've proved my argument many times over with quotes and logic.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Imperious said:


> Your last response is clear enough that you are a troll. I am done with you.


He's no more a troll than you, don't bandy those sorts of accuasations around when they can be as easily thrown back in your face.

By the way I checked out _The 13th Black Crusade_ book- it's presented as an officer's journal. Rather than the neutral point of view taken with the 13th Black Crusade newsletter you've chosen something that is obviously going to be heavily biased, good choice there.
Even if it is biased after reading the last 15 or so pages it paints a fairly grim picture for the Imperium, the Astartes, Navy, and Eldar managed to drive the Planet Killer and Blackstone Fortress away but they've still taken overwhelming losses.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think both of you have put up good points. I just think that both of you have opposite views to the scenario. You are both right. It cannot be denied that Abaddon has accomplished so much, despite it only being a "foothold" on Cadia. But it is a foothold non the less. But its also a desperate victory for Abaddon. 

The advantage Abaddon has over the Imperium, is that he has nothing to lose thats really important to him. He has thrown a lot of what is not his (of course you could also say it is his now when talking about all the renegades he has recruited) towards his 13th Crusade. I like Talos' point of view on Abaddon and his crusades. In case someone hasn't read it, he is the main character in _Soul Hunter_. 

On topic, I'd like to see what the Alpha Legion is doing in all of this. I don't think Abaddon could have too much power. I really think he needs the support of the old legions. These organizations are better organized to deal with the Imperium. In _Dark Creed_ and perhaps _The Chapter's Due_ (though I did not like the book), I like the idea that the other legions would attack the Imperium in different fronts. If they could do it in a much vaster scale, I think the Imperium would be torn apart.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Especially if those said attacks were actually feints initiated by the alpha legion and night lords to draw vital imperium forces like astartes chapters away from the real target....


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> He's no more a troll than you, don't bandy those sorts of accuasations around when they can be as easily thrown back in your face.
> 
> By the way I checked out _The 13th Black Crusade_ book- it's presented as an officer's journal. Rather than the neutral point of view taken with the 13th Black Crusade newsletter you've chosen something that is obviously going to be heavily biased, good choice there.
> Even if it is biased after reading the last 15 or so pages it paints a fairly grim picture for the Imperium, the Astartes, Navy, and Eldar managed to drive the Planet Killer and Blackstone Fortress away but they've still taken overwhelming losses.


The fact that it shows how grim things are shows that it's "bias" as an imperial journal has no relevance. If you actually read the book, the entire journal is classified for command admirals, generals, and the inquisition. So it is actually a nice choice. Thank you. 

As far as it painting a grim picture, since when is the Imperium never a grim picture??? It's called grimdark for a reason. 

What it does show is that Abaddon's forces are stranded on the planet. Abaddon has pretty much lost his entire fleet. The Necron destroyed another of the blackstone fortresses. The forces on the planet are now subject to imperial bombardment. 

Who's shoes would you rather be in?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

One of the last notes in the book states that total war has come to Segmentum Obscurus and that all hopes of repelling the invaders are now dashed. Cadia stands alone and the Imperium must consolidate around those worlds it still has a hope of defending, because Abaddon has finally breached the Cadian Gate and none can hold back the tide of Chaos.

So whilst the main journal says one thing from a single man's point of view there are other collected notes that support Gree's and my own argument- all in all I'm not going to be considering The 13th Black Crusade book as disagreeing with the neutral summary provided by the newsletter.

Hell on rechecking the main journal it states that most of the Imperial/Eldar fleet is destroyed and that whilst the Necrons forced the Blackstone Fortress to disengage Abaddon's forces are still vast- yeah it really looks like the Imperial Navy have a strong grip on the Cadia system, doubtful they'd bombard the planet even if they could, the idea after all is to secure the Imperium's mightiest Fortress World not turn it into slag.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

While Cadia is clearly invaluable to the imperium, I can absolutley see the Inquisition ordering an exterminatus if chaos overwhelms the cadian system. It's just their way.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

From what I know of GW's storyline-building, the Imperium is -never- in a non-grim situation, so the fact that they are sweating it at the Cadian system is not particularly extraordinary. I do agree that Abaddon may not be as rich with FAIL as it seems; he has to herd a lot of cats and deal with a lot of huge issues to even keep his forces operational, and given that, his overtures in obtaining the Blackstone Fortresses and the Planet Killer mean something. My personal beef is that the faction that pretty much defined the struggle of 40K with the heresy is such a minor threat compared to the Tyranids and the Orks.

That said, also given the way GW writes stuff, the next codex will have ample material saying that HAHAHA, IN YOUR FACE, CHAOS RULZ AND IS -THIS- CLOSE TO WINNING, praising the huge intelelct, depravity and phallic endowement of all its leaders and their exploits. The Traitor Legions will become THE enemy about to sweep the galaxy...

...until the next xenos book comes along. Then the torch will be passed. It's the cycle of Warhammer life.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I mean even the next big force would be the Word Bearers legion which many know is 1/10 the size of the Black Legion.


How did the WB's get so small, I read in HH that the WB's were the second biggest Legion after the UM's, who were rumourd to have "aquired" recruits from the missing primarch legions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> How did the WB's get so small, I read in HH that the WB's were the second biggest Legion after the UM's, who were rumourd to have "aquired" recruits from the missing primarch legions.


Who says they got small...? Lol. I think I know what your getting at, but you have to understand that the Black Legion isn't really the "Son's of Horus" of before. In fact, the purity of their legion is no longer there. Instead the Black Legion is a combination of warbands, renegade chapters, pirates, and daemons that have joined with Abaddon. Yes, the geneseed of Horus is still at its core, but the majority of the Black Legion is not made up of it.

Also remember, we are talking about 40,000 and not the Heresy if the 30,000. The Word Bearers would probably count for the most genestock spread amongst the chaos and loyal astartes. Especially since most of the Ultramarines were whipped out from the Great Scouring.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Imperium = RESILIENCE!

It was a nice firefight on Pages 3-5, though.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I'd like to think that perhaps Abaddon has a more hidden agenda somewhere. It would be cool to see the Alpha Legion appear in the middle of Imperium and just caused havoc. 

So to answer the question, I think they should find someway to infliterate further into Terra. Maybe have someone corrupted with the High Lords of Terra.


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## For-The-Warmaster (Nov 26, 2010)

The chaos worshippers will have to take and overrun cadia and the surrounding planets since its the only safe passage almost directly to terra itself.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Could someone explain to me, how the taking of Cadia suddenly opens the way to Terra. ?

I mean I can understand it as a first step, but surely there would be alot standing in any invaders way, not to mention that Terra itself must be the most heavily fortified planet in the entire Galaxy. Stronger than it was even at the time of the original Heresy.

I remember someone saying that the Imperium is designed to be tougher and tougher the deeper into you get, and I would imagine that to be the case. Abaddon would have to deal with supply and logistical problems, and the fact that daemons can't exist out of the warp forever. So I don't understand how taking Cadia = threatening Terra immediately.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

It won't threaten Terra immediately. But having control of the Cadian Gate gives chaos the ability to pour in from the warp at will. Think about it and it'll make sense.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Could someone explain to me, how the taking of Cadia suddenly opens the way to Terra. ?
> 
> So I don't understand how taking Cadia = threatening Terra immediately.


It doesn't. But it's the most important and pivotal first step.

The Cadian Gate is the only stable route out of the Eye, and the only way large fleets can successfully (and with much less risk) exit the warp storm. The Imperium prior to the 13th Black Crusade had the Chaos forces blockaded in the Eye of Terror because they held the Cadian Gate as one of the most heavily fortified zones in the galaxy. 

Now that the:


> The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.


A massive threat is being brought to bear on the Imperium. Between the Cadian Gate and the Sol System there is no area in which the chaos forces can be easily blockaded as was the case in the Cadian Gate.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It doesn't. But it's the most important and pivotal first step.
> 
> The Cadian Gate is the only stable route out of the Eye, and the only way large fleets can successfully (and with much less risk) exit the warp storm. The Imperium prior to the 13th Black Crusade had the Chaos forces blockaded in the Eye of Terror because they held the Cadian Gate as one of the most heavily fortified zones in the galaxy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearly that up (you too Imperious).

I just misuderstood because alot of people basically said that if Cadia falls then the road to Terra is open. But it's a long road ahead of the forces of Chaos if they do take Cadia.

However I guess, when you think about it; as you said Cadia is the most heavily defended and fortified areas outside of Terra itself, if they can't stop Chaos there, then where can they stop them?

So in that respect it does make sense that if Cadia falls, the Imperium is in deep sh*t. lol.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I could be wrong but i'd say its more about support and or warpholes. The Iron Warriors raely contribute any real portion of their strength to outside conflicts, preffering to stay in the eye. If the Cadian gate was open that would be like beating Angron on a "who's more pissed off about the Grey Knights" contest and so support, real support, would pour through. Also it may have warp routes towards Terra such as in the Word Bearers book Dark Creed, the most important places in teh Imperium have warp route to Terra.


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