# I hate Orks. Why are they so good?!?



## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

OK, I play guard, and this is the deal:
For 6 points I get a 5+ armor save no assault capability whatsoever and a flashlight.
For 6 points an ork player gets a slightly worse save, the ability to ass rape anything in close combat, a relly good gun, but low balistic skill(big deal, you have 30 in a squad). WTF?!?
Orks should cost 8-10 points per or not be so good in assault.
Why? WHY? WHY?!?
Add to this the fact that now orks can get to me even faster with the new running rule!!! And once they get to me I cant shoot at them at all! 
GYAH!
Puf...puf...puf...
Sorry, for this I really need to blow off steam, I just got totaly anihalated by turn 4...


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

definitely agree on that. guardsmen are either overpriced or orks underpriced.


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

When they roll out the 3 point guardsmen and 50 point leman russes (no exaggeration, just wait and see!), that problem will solve itself.


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

I think Guardsmen should be reduced to 5 or maybe even 4 pts a model. I also think Orks should have actually been 7 pts per model. . .

EDIT: Damn got in there just before me . I really doubt we'll be seeing 3 pt Guardsmen. That's as much as a Grot and are better in every way. . .


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

You forgot to mention they're fearless :wink:

GW fucked up. That's the bottom line.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow this thread has been up for less than 5 muinets:shok:
Thank you for agreeing with me. I really like the sound of 3 point guardmen and 50 point lemans.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

atleast guardmen look cool


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

Orks are undeniably underpriced when compared to a guardsmen. But they also have the option of being upgraded with numerous abilities. While some are arguably useless, some are pretty awesome. Drop troops, light infantry, chameleoline.

That aside, I agree with you. I have only just gotten over my fear of the green tide. Orks just get _too much_ benefit from the new cover rules. More so than any other army.

One strategy I have found to work remarkably well is a refused flank tactic. Focus all fire on one side, wipe it out, and then either sit in that corner and shoot him to pieces during the next 2-3 turns that it takes him to get to you (difficult terrain rolls aside) or push up his flank if you are a more assault based army. Refused flank can really tip the scales in an IG army's favour in a kill points scenario, which is arguably the guard's poorest. You are facing down only bits and pieces at a time with your entire army.


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## ghazghkull-killyork (Jun 15, 2008)

now to clear everything up about orks (just so you know this is straight out of the codex)
normal ork boyz are 6 pts each and have a 6+ save
'ard boyz are 10pts each and have a 4+ save and most other orks have 6+s and there are only 2 other models that have lower than that, they are; ghazghkull(2+ 225 points) and baddruk(3+ 170pts)
their bs is 2 so they need 5+ to hit
they arenot fearless unless there is more than11 boyz in the squad.
please ask or pm me if you have any other problems with ork b4 claiming that gw is retarded for making orks how they are


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

They're still better than guardsmen.

In all seriousness I don't think orks are underpriced, but that guardsmen are overpriced. The guard's 5+ save really isn't much better than the orks' 6+ save as they still don't get saves against much. Actually, orks are a bit better off in that department, because of their higher toughness. As for their BS of 2, well... at least when an ork hits it can do some damage (unlike an imperial guardsman), and because their weapons are all assault they can carge into combat and mop up whatever's left over from shooting, something guardsmen simply can't do. 

Then, of course, there's the guard's terrible leadership. Orks tend not to walk around in squads of 10, so leadership isn't much of a problem for them. 6 points for an ork vs. 6 points for a guardsman... 4 point guardsmen seem a bit more fair.


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

Admittedly I am not really bothered by orks, mostly cause I have no problems with them at all. However I did notice that their BS is the real leveling factor when it comes to orks shooting as their guns are often pretty good and would rock in the hands of a marine (lots of assault guns)


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## Herbert (Apr 7, 2007)

Orks arent the problem. Grots are.

Its always the weedy little quiet ones in the corner you have to watch out for lol


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Orks are better "'Coz dey waz made ta fight an' WIN!"

Honestly, the old Ork list was pretty much crap, and GW overstepped JUST a little.

I play both Guard and Orks, and it does have to be said, that in terms of basic infantry, Guard kinda get the shaft.

Now, the fact that the Guard have good ranged weapons and can HIT things with them is all cool (and I always rock the Sharpshooters Doctrine) can help...

But yeah. 5+ Armor still turns into a Coladner when bolters show up, and being T3 is hard on the poor little unarmored guys.

Honestly, though, my Guard have more problems with Eldar than they do Orks....


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## gblai6 (Feb 20, 2008)

These days with almost everyone in an army getting 4+ cover saves I think they're pretty even.

Besides that, the overall list needs to be taken into account. Dropping pie plates onto large ork squads messes them up pretty badly (which guard can do pretty well if I'm not mistaken).


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

orks are the kind of army that you basically have to build a list for. Most other armies it's tactics that do it over wht your army has but with orks you need lots of multi shot weaponry and lots of plates... a decent generalised army around me is one that takes on orks well.... it's kind of weird


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

"You think you're safe when all of a sudden...."

"WAAAAAAGH"

Yeah I don't like orks all that much and agree they are quite a bit too powerful when compared with guard (not that they're a pushover with other armies).

No matter how you look at it they're just slightly too chea for their points. Ah well, I can see 5 pt guardsmen in the future at least.


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

This is going back a few years, when 4th edition was new and IG was the latest codex to be released. GW did admit if they kept to the 4th edition stat costings they had, that IG should have been 5 points each, but doing that meant they were almost unbeatable.

Now with IG still on 4th and many on 5th they at a bit of a disadvantage. So think they will have to bear it until they get there 5th codex and probably go to 5 points or have their flashlight upgraded and still be 6 (this is a strong but very vague rumour though).


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

What kind of blasphemy is this, soldier? The Imperial Guard is the finest war machine humanity has ever known! *loads the bolt pistol and puts on the commissar hat...* Between this here bolt pistol, and what you're about to read, you're going to be begging the Emperor for forgiveness for saying that the Guard suck! 

Seriously, though, the Guard aren't screwed the way people say they are. If you're playing Guard and losing, you're just a *bad* Guard player. There's a difference between a fundamentally flawed set of rules, and just not having any tactics beyond point and click with a given set of weapons. 

Guardsmen against Orks? No problem. If you form up into a static firing line, you're going to lose. Simple fact. Don't be baited into bringing a heavy weapon in every squad-- mobility is important. If you don't move, you die. Having a single platoon handle a single mob of 30 boyz at a time works wonders. The platoon needs to stay together and fight as a semi-coherent whole-- while they're nominally between three and six units on their own, they function best in concert with one another. If you have three squads of guardsmen, with perhaps flamers and grenade launchers (yes, grenade launchers...) using frag grenades advance within 12'' of an Ork mob, and unload everything they've got, there's absolutely no reason you can't cut them down to size. 

Don't be afraid to feed a mob ten Guardsmen. The lasguns that they carry are far more vaulable than the guardsmen's lives, and it is their duty to serve the Emperor. If the Emperor demands they take a charge from a mob of 30 Orks and die horribly, then so be it. Because said mob of 30 boyz can't charge into a new unit following their wipe-out of a unit of ten guardsmen, you now have them in an optimal position to be blown away, if you're not treating each unit of ten guardsmen as its own distinct unit, but rather operating on the notion that each is a detachment from the greater whole that is the platoon. 

Now, someone said leadership is a disadvantage of the Imperial Guard, and I have to strongly disagree. Vox Casters save you a lot of hurt, when coupled with the Master Vox in your Command HQ squad. Find somewhere safe to tuck away the Colonel, whose job it is to lead from the rear and order the battle, not fight it himself the way a Space Marine Captain does, and keep everybody on the line. Remember, you don't *have* to use the Vox leadership if you don't want to-- you can go on the lousy Ld7 if it serves your purposes to have a squad fall back. Most of the time, though, you should be working with Ld10 across the board thanks to Commissar Joe pointing a pistol at the Colonel while he gives the orders. If Commissars aren't your thing, an Inquisitor fills the same role without the fatal consequences for the Colonel, in game terms, and isn't meaningfully more expensive, despite taking up an Elites slot. 

One thing the Orks seriously lack is ranged anti-tank firepower. Lootas are all well and good, but S7 can't touch Armour 14. If you bring three 'Russes, line 'em up, and focus your fire on a single mob of Boyz, odds are, you're going to kill most of them. Be sure to bring the pintle storm bolter, at the very least (although the stubber's two points more, so you might as well bring it instead)-- otherwise, that Power Klaw that may eventually make its way to your vehicles will hit the rear armor instead of the facing armor. 

If bikers are giving you trouble, I would suggest a Hellhound. Even if the Hellhound subsequently gets blown to smithereens by a power klaw, rokkit launcha, or even lootas (who are far better off shooting your guardsmen down in heaps, by the way, so whatever) then it's not a big deal as long as it got to spray the bikers once or twice. The Inferno Cannon ignores cover and is AP4-- both of which are things the bikers rely on to stay alive. 


Onto the more related topic of "why Orks are so good?" They're not. They're no better than any other army in the game. What they are is forgiving in a tactical sense-- you can run forward with them and do just fine. If the other guy happens to not have his head up his ass, then you may find your mobz systematically dealt with, as I described above, with multiple units neutralizing one mob before moving on to the next. However, more often than not, a lot of folks have the idea that "tactics" are running forward screaming as well. And when you do that, Orks are awfully hard to beat. All things considered, though... Orks had it coming. They were the doormat army for a long time due to Games Workshop's neglect, and now that they're back in the running as a competitive army, people don't know what to do, since they never got used to dealing with the basic Ork beforehand.


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## WoRLoKKeD (Apr 1, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Epic advice


I don't know about anyone else, but I figure this is pretty much the best advice possible for most anyone playing a large Ork army, let alone just Guard!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I think this is a case of people only looking at one unit. the primary reason that that orks are so cheap is that they really only excel in close combat, but are not the horde that tyranids are, they do have some shooting, but not nearly the capability of IG. the relative value of each to their respective lists. If you put ork boyz in an otherwise IG list, and vice versa, the value would be immense, as the orks would gain a strong shooting element, and the IG force would gain a great close combat element. If they were to br=e compared alo0ne, the ork boy might be better, but in some respects, such as shooting, armor save, which also determines which weapons ignore their save altogether, and initiative, they are worse. The imperial guardsmen have the ability to kill ork vehicles much eaiser than the reverse.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

I think the problem is here is the assumption that every army is bad if you use correct tactics against it. You do present some fantastic ways to combat orks, SoH, but surely an ork player using superior tactics against an IG army will win, as opposed to running blindly forward, as is the tendency with orks.

Any "broken" army can be defeated using superior tactics, but that's nothing to do with the list. Hell, if you're fighting an army double your points cost, you could beat it with superior tactics.

The point is, in a one on one fight, with no tactics used, it's just not a fair fight. Orks trounce IG in that respect, and this isn't represented in the points value.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I'll have to agree that orks come off as just "A wee bit too strong"

A six point ork is just...ridiculous in fifth edition where his only downside(the 6+) is negated by the fact that everyone and their distant cousin receives a cover save. Pie plates are nice, but barely dent the horde if they're well-spaced and receiving the undeniable 4+ that they always have.

The simple fact that you -HAVE- to plan against the mob for tournies is kind of sickening. No army should really gambit an entire playstyle solely for the use against it.

"Well here's a nice, balanced list...but I saw jim playing orks...I better add fifty more flamers to compensate..."


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Aye if you play an Apocalypse game any time soon, bring some recruited allies.. Blood Axes and throw them in for a good bit of carnage. :laugh:

Reading on Dakka earlier, theres a rumour from Nottingham that Guardsmen are going to be 4pts each which sounds interesting, although thats basic eq conscripts (now have same stats as normal Guard) and you can then upgrade the platoons to diff types such as heavy weapons, Armoured etc.

Think if its not been done I'll go make a post in News/rumours a sec.


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## Flakey (Sep 24, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> I'll have to agree that orks come off as just "A wee bit too strong"
> 
> The simple fact that you -HAVE- to plan against the mob for tournies is kind of sickening. No army should really gambit an entire playstyle solely for the use against it.
> 
> "Well here's a nice, balanced list...but I saw jim playing orks...I better add fifty more flamers to compensate..."


Well wait until IG codex comes out if they reduce the cost of a basic guardsman by a point or two to duplicate the reduction in orks. You could end up facing a column of attack of IG made up of 200 plus guards. People may not like it but I think tourney armies in the near future will have to be able to fight both horde armies and small number quality armies to do really well.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

beenburned said:


> I think the problem is here is the assumption that every army is bad if you use correct tactics against it. You do present some fantastic ways to combat orks, SoH, but surely an ork player using superior tactics against an IG army will win, as opposed to running blindly forward, as is the tendency with orks.
> 
> Any "broken" army can be defeated using superior tactics, but that's nothing to do with the list. Hell, if you're fighting an army double your points cost, you could beat it with superior tactics.
> 
> The point is, in a one on one fight, with no tactics used, it's just not a fair fight. Orks trounce IG in that respect, and this isn't represented in the points value.


Yeah, but this is supposed to be a game of tactics, so it's perfect that someone who uses better tactics wins.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

This whole debate can be answered with a simple question.

If you played yourself, one using Orks, one using Imperial Guard - who would win?

[spoil]You using Orks[/spoil]


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

it would depend on how I used either. if I took orks with a lot of elites, and IG with alot of armor and plenty of infantry, with two rows of infantry,one 7 inches behind the first, the IG would most likely win, if I did the opposite, the orks would win, dice being equally as kind to each force.

I have noticed a lot of IG players playing as if they were space marines, and have their individual squads bunched up, instead of turning hem into a series of speed bumps to slow down the advance,and give themselves time to use their options other than the one troop choice to do their majick.


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## surreal-mind (Oct 11, 2008)

"Well here's a nice, balanced list...but I saw jim playing orks...I better add fifty more flamers to compensate..."
(2 lazy 2 kwote )

yeah but i mean i have to make a list just to deal with tau for my daemons, every army ahs its anti-thesis and you should always put that into perspective exepct for sm, but thats their high point they are 'all rounders'


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## Netganks (Oct 16, 2008)

orks are under priced and move far to quickly, guardsmen need to be either decreased in value or orks need to be increased in value or other teams will be raped as quickly if not quicker.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

I play fine against Orks..... though it must be said that I also play a list consisting of tons of Regular Guard, Lack of Hvy weapons, Commissars out the asshole and a nice column of Basilisks.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Yeah, but this is supposed to be a game of tactics, so it's perfect that someone who uses better tactics wins.


Yes, so if it's a game of tactics, is it fair that the orks should have an advantage before the game has even started?

I'll elaborate slightly. You using orks would win right? This shows that orks just are the stronger army. A fair game of tactics would involve similar, if not identical opposing sides. This hasn't happened, and a game of tactics between Orks and IG starts off unfair because those Orks are just more killy, so tactics wise, they're more forgiving, and mistakes you can still make with an ork army and win, you just couldn't make with an IG army. This is why they're not really balanced, surely?


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## ghazghkull-killyork (Jun 15, 2008)

they dont have any advantage at all they are cheap in points beacuse they attack last in most combats they have a 6+ save (or 4+ for more points) and they have a bs of 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

orks arent that big of a deal, especially in apoc games. i've played them twice, the first time they were pounded into the ground by withering firepower before they could even reach my chaos marines and the second i fed into their need for close combat and took the fight to them. now i did have some heavy armor loses and lost a squad of termies but most of my army survived intact and the fact that i had covering fire to back up my assualt worked just fine seeing as how this guy had twice as many grunts as i did( he had almost 300 orks). 

its like any other race, they all have to be fought a different way or else you're in for a long battle.


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## Gannon (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree with B.A.V. here. Every army has it's own weakness'. For those that recognize the weaknesses of the Orks the better off they will play against them. Remember quantity doesn't equal quality. There is no unbeatable army (even though B.A.V.'s record would suggest otherwise).:biggrin:


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

ghazghkull-killyork said:


> they dont have any advantage at all they are cheap in points beacuse they attack last in most combats they have a 6+ save (or 4+ for more points) and they have a bs of 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


First comeing to an anti ork post and saying basically your guys are just fine, or suck is a bit on the assinine side. Second, if you would have read the posts saying that 5th edition nullified their biggest downside of their 6+ save with the new cover rules. Also when do orks really shoot, I thought they where mainly a horde HTH army (yes I know they shoot, but they are known for HTH more, hello choppa).


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ok dumb question and totally off topic but what does HTH mean?


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

hand to hand (combat)


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

I will point out that while the Guard are LITTLE overpriced in infantry, they more than make up for by having vehicles that don't fly apart in a strong wind.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

ghazghkull-killyork said:


> they dont have any advantage at all they are cheap in points beacuse they attack last in most combats they have a 6+ save (or 4+ for more points) and they have a bs of 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Look, read Jezlad's post. It's key to what I was saying.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

beenburned said:


> Look, read Jezlad's post. It's key to what I was saying.


you mean the last post? it is very brief, and just says that if you fought a battle by yourself against orks, and using IG, the orks would win. 

I think the only reason that orks have an advantage is that so many players fixate on close combat, which isn't necessarily bad if you play an army that either is a good all around force, or if you excel in close combat. another possible reason IG players might see themselves getting the dirty end of the  stick is they have to either build to fight orks ( I personally don't reccomend, as it causes over-specialization), or sacrificing some squads.

No player likes losing men, we do bond with even the lowliest private in our armies. BUT, when a person plays imperial guard, they do need to come to terms with the fact that they will lose men. this can be an advantage, however. 

Can anyone think of any ork players that aren't aggressive in their play style?

take advantage of their aggressiveness, stagger your squads so thet the orks cannot charge them all at any one time. when the orks inevitably slaughter your guardsmen, put the laughter in slaughter, and open up with all of the guns you have, and watch the orks turn to a green mist.

take a balanced set of heavy and special weapons, take advantage of the bassies, and hellhounds and sentinels, and battle tanks, and other nastieness the imperial guard can have. the IG list is designed to have a mix of infantry and armor, most of which orks will have a herd time dealing with. tank shock boyz when they get too close, use flamers to thin them out, create kill zones where the orks are out in the open, and get cut down in a hail of lasfire.

the imperial guard are great if used right, just as space marines (even my beloved death guard) suck it hard if used wrong.


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## ghazghkull-killyork (Jun 15, 2008)

and the point of why i came and replied to this post was to make sure no one was cheating and too make sure that they knew the real rules before they called gw gay


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