# Arik Taranis theory (**Outcast Dead spoilers**)



## Cowbellicus

The Thunder Warrior storyline in The Outcast Dead really got my brain spinning. I developed a little pet theory here that might interest you guys. I am in no way implying "this is the way it is" or anything. It's just for fun.
*
Arik Taranis is the ur Primarch*. The primarch before there were primarchs. The primarch of the Thunder Warriors, and by extension the ultimate badass primarch. As the Thunder Warriors were the template the big E used to build the Astartes, Arik was the template he used to build the primarchs. Here's my (purely anecdotal) evidence.

- It follows the unspoken rule of 40k : the further you go back in time, the more badass stuff is. In 40k the Astartes are reduced to chapters. Many of them have lost a number of their genetic enhancements. The Imperium is in shambles. The big E is a shell. But if you go back to the HH, you've got full power Astartes; the Imperium is at the top of it's game; the Emperor is ambulatory. If you go alllll the way back in time you end up with the C'Tan and the Necrontyr who are kind of the premier badasses of all time. Further, the Thunder Warriors are clearly stated to be more powerful than Astartes (the era of the TW was _before _HH). So it's not a giant stretch to assume that the TWs had a demigodlike leader in the form of a prototype primarch.

- In The Outcast Dead, it is stated that in no uncertain terms that there was no other living being in the galaxy save the Emperor himself who could have decoded the secrets of the geneseed as Arik eventually does. And he does it with like a RonCo Chemistry Set. That's a primarch level feat.

- Also in the Outcast Dead, it is strongly implied that the hyperbolic descriptions of the famous TW battles were _not _hyperbole. There is talk of Arik knocking down the "Azurite Tower" with his bare hands, and participating in mountain-sundering conflicts against techno-warlords. He has a laundry list of battle honors so long that even modern day Astartes are awestruck in his presence. These are the sorts of things you would attribute to a primarch.

- Ghota, his subordinate, fights 5 minor-hero level Astares essentially single-handedly to a stalemate, killing one of them. But he shows complete deference to Arik, implying he knows he is a lesser being.

- It would seem that Arik is at least several centuries old. And despite not being built to have the longevity of Astartes, he is somehow still alive. This seems to imply an extra level of potency you might expect to see from a particularly exceptional version of a TW.

- At the very end of the story when he successfully completes his research into the geneseed and Ghota asks "did it work?". He answers "Yes, my *son.*" This is the sort of way you expect a primarch to address one of his, well, _sons_.

Edit : forgot one of the most important things. When Arik reveals himself in the temple, he projects an "aura too bright to look upon. His presence had a gravity all it's own, demanding all attention and fear." Atharva, a powerful Thousand Sons psyker "could barely stand to turn his psychic senses on him for fear of being overwhelmed." This is exactly the sort of ensorcellating aura that is associated with primarchs, and the Emperor.


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## SoulGazer

Your theory is interesting and sound. Sadly, though, this just means BL is making a cool character to be killed off at some point in another book. Mostly cause a rogue primarch(or equivalent) running around hasn't ever been mentioned anywhere in previous histories, so it'll be used in an interesting retcon of some kind. Kinda like "There was this one huge guy who was strong, and he was the reason (Insert HH-related event) happened! Neat, huh? Oh, and then he died."

One question though, could be an oversight on their part or JUST AS PLANNED: How is it that the Emperor doesn't know of this guy if he has such a resounding presence?


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## Lost&Damned

Ok but seriously outcast dead isnt very ....reliable,theres no proof that overall Thunder warriors are superior, other than a thunder warrior saying it, the fight, well many fights in that book were ridiculous like the world eater against the custodes.
also i think soul gazer is right.
and that Fabius Bile could clone (imperfectly) Horus


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## SoulGazer

Hah, unless Arik is the guy Trazyn has. Somehow. That'd be a way to get rid of him. No, I have no evidence to back this up, it just sounded kinda funny.


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## DelValle

Wow, this is pretty interesting and makes sense.


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## Cowbellicus

Yeah, I don't think Arik would be an actual capital P Primarch. But more like a prototype version of the real thing. You could also spin this sort of like how back in the day Intel used to take 486 DX chips in the factory, sever a few connections to the FPU and market it as the crappier 486 SX. Maybe the Emperor took whatever it is that Arik is, toned a few things down and cranked up the Primarch program. That would be one way of not breaking continuity anyways.

Personally, I think the coolest way to use him in the HH would be as some sort of critical savior figure that never made it into the history books. Like he shows up at a key moment and fights off Angron, Fulgrim and Perturabo at the same time to prevent some super disaster from occurring. That sort of fight would certainly qualify as a "continent shattering" sort of thing that he seems to be familiar with  So he maintains his crazy that-has-to-be-a-legend-and-can't-be-real place in the lore. Or hell, toss him into the Eye of Terror and time warp him forward to 40k to play some sort of key role. He kind of comes across as a This Is A Guy That Gets Anything Done character and it would be a shame if they just randomly off him in a dumb way.


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## redmapa

What if he's the "Primarch" of the Custodes?


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## Chompy Bits

redmapa said:


> What if he's the "Primarch" of the Custodes?


That is EXTREEEEEEEMELY unlikely. Judging by the various comments in _The First Heretic_, the closest thing the Custodes have to a Primarch is the big E himself, though even he isn't their primarch in the sense of how the real Primarchs are to their legions. The one Custodes, at one point, remarks that they are the Emperor's true or favourite sons or something along those lines and Lorgar refers to them as genetic overspill.

A theory that I believe is that Custodes are possibly what Primarchs would have been without being warp infused. It would also make sense to me, as both the creation of Custodes and Primarchs is a unique process for each individual, as we see in _Deliverance Lost_ when Corax examines the primarch templates.

As for Arik, I think he could have been genetically created to be the leader of the thunder warriors and the Emp gave him that Primarch-like aura to inspire loyalty from the warriors he led. It would make sense to me then how he's been alive for so long despite a TW's limited shelf life, as he was made to be more than just a 'regular' TW.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

As I see the Thunder Warriors, through the lens of TOD, they are physically stronger and more resilient than the Astartes. They really struggle in their fights against their forbearers and looked to be doomed before they were amde the offer in the temple.
Where the Astartes seem to have the edge is mentally. There seems to have been some trade-off made for strength and resilience for mental stability. 
Arik could just be someone on whom the transformation process was especially suited, allowing it to work to the fullest of its potential, bestowing seeming extra strength and abilities, just as the Astartes process has different results when used on different people.
As for the Big E not being aware of Arik; who says he's not? We don't know a fraction of what the Emperor knows, or what his plans may be concerning what he knows. He may be leaving Arik for a time, content at what his former Champion is doing. For all that he is astoudingly intelligent and driven, in such climactic times he may still be an irrelevance , although I doubt it.
It may also be that there will be a series about the Scouring when the HH series has finished. we may be seeing the fluff being seeded with characterd who may play a later part in the action, or who may be seen as having something to do with the genesis of later events.
What might be fun is if Valdor is killed during the Siege/Boarding of Horus' flagship, and Arik takes his place as head of Custodes. Not a shred of a hint that this might be the way the story will go, but fun nontheless!

GFP


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## revan4559

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> As I see the Thunder Warriors, through the lens of TOD, they are physically stronger and more resilient than the Astartes. They really struggle in their fights against their forbearers and looked to be doomed before they were amde the offer in the temple.
> Where the Astartes seem to have the edge is mentally. There seems to have been some trade-off made for strength and resilience for mental stability.
> Arik could just be someone on whom the transformation process was especially suited, allowing it to work to the fullest of its potential, bestowing seeming extra strength and abilities, just as the Astartes process has different results when used on different people.
> As for the Big E not being aware of Arik; who says he's not? We don't know a fraction of what the Emperor knows, or what his plans may be concerning what he knows. He may be leaving Arik for a time, content at what his former Champion is doing. For all that he is astoudingly intelligent and driven, in such climactic times he may still be an irrelevance , although I doubt it.
> It may also be that there will be a series about the Scouring when the HH series has finished. we may be seeing the fluff being seeded with characterd who may play a later part in the action, or who may be seen as having something to do with the genesis of later events.
> What might be fun is if Valdor is killed during the Siege/Boarding of Horus' flagship, and Arik takes his place as head of Custodes. Not a shred of a hint that this might be the way the story will go, but fun nontheless!
> 
> GFP


Just going to point this out to you and others, like i constantly do at my local GW store especially to the manager. Valdor wasn't at the siege of Terra as he was still on his way back from Prospero when the battle was being fought.


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## Cowbellicus

Plus, unless I'm mistaken, isn't Valdor still alive in the 40k era?


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## Angel of Blood

revan4559 said:


> Just going to point this out to you and others, like i constantly do at my local GW store especially to the manager. Valdor wasn't at the siege of Terra as he was still on his way back from Prospero when the battle was being fought.


Incorrect actually. We can approximate to a certain extent from _Blood Games_ that he has already returned at that point, but it is certain from _Nemesis_ that he is definitely back from Prospero by the time the novel takes place.


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## MontytheMighty

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> As I see the Thunder Warriors, through the lens of TOD...There seems to have been some trade-off made for strength and resilience for mental stability.


I agree very much. Astartes seem to be more obedient and less prone to insanity...of course, Astartes are still very fallible as evidenced by the HH


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## Cowlicker16

As for what happens to this guy during the Terra Seige portion of the series the EC are running around his neighborhood. I wanna see our one and only Lucius spar up, strength vs skill.


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## The Meddler

This is just a random thought, but what if Taranis is linked with the Terminus decree? After all, if someone was needed to fix the golden throne/ the emperor, then this guy...


Cowbellicus said:


> - In The Outcast Dead, it is stated that in no uncertain terms that there was no other living being in the galaxy save the Emperor himself who could have decoded the secrets of the geneseed as Arik eventually does. And he does it with like a RonCo Chemistry Set. That's a primarch level feat.


... would be the one to do it.


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## Stephen_Newman

He sounds like someone who might side with Horus when he lands on Terra and the idea of an early proto primarch sounds like exactly the kind of person an Emperor's Champion like say Sigismund could beat down in an epic fight.


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## Phoebus

I don't know. Arik and his lackey are certainly presented as very powerful individuals, but I'm leery to accept two survivors (of the "heroic" template, at that) as indicative of all their kind. I mean, if you read the "Space Wolf" novels, Haeger is unmatched in terms of physical strength and stature - even after numerous comparisons (and fights) with other Space Marines. Similarly, Pasanius (of "Ultramarines Omnibus" fame) is notably bigger and stronger than other Ultramarines (and suffers from none of Haeger's embarassing girth). The two Thunder Warriors, removed two centuries from their hayday, might simply be wistfully projecting their own heroic stature and prowess on their memories of their comrades.

Alternately, Thunder Warriors might have all been bigger and stronger... but that might have come at the cost of the psychopathically violent tendencies that we see Arik and Co displaying. If we take Guilliman's word for granted in "Know No Fear", the Emperor quite likely wanted his Astartes to be much more than just warriors (as with the Thunder Warriors and other, earlier, implied creations). Their aloof/apart from humanity warrior mentality might have just been a product of the total warrior culture they were immersed in. An Astartes could be good at virtually *anything*,* though - it just depends what kind of doctrine they were raised/educated with.

Cheers,
P.

* Think about it. Effectively immortal, blessed with eidetic memory, incredibly analytical and calculating minds... An Astartes would be an incredibly efficient administrator, law enforcer, user of technology, etc.


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## Hellados

they are also good with technology, see the tech priests 

I had a thought from reading this thread, aren't we still looking for official primarchs for the custodes and the GK??

Well the big E could be the custodes or GKs and this TW could of been the template for the Primarchs. All the fluff says that the Emperor created them but I don't remember reading that he created him using his own genetic coding.


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## soonergold

I may be making this up, but I always thought the Custodes were the first. That they were the original template but the big E figured out they would 'grow' too slow. So he scrapped it, made 10k of them and called them bodyguards while he went off and looted chaos. 

I always fancied that eventually the Custodes would develop psychic powers and become full on demi-gods...I know this part is made up.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Hellados said:


> I had a thought from reading this thread, aren't we still looking for official primarchs for the custodes and the GK??


Neither had/have Primarchs. The Grey Knights were forged from the "Emperor's own flesh and soul", whilst the Custodians were born of an older and more formative process which was then refined and simplified to produce the Legio Astartes.


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## Hellados

so the custodes could of been from this guy? hypothetically speaking. . . .


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Hellados said:


> so the custodes could of been from this guy? hypothetically speaking. . . .


"This guy" being Arik Taranis? No. He was a Thunder Warrior, one of the first generation of genetically enhanced Imperial shock-troops used in the Unification Wars that were all believed to have been subsequently destroyed at the Battle of Mount Ararat (IIRC). Whilst the Emperor may have borrowed some of the technology or process used in their creation to create the Legio Custodes, it would not be accurate to then label a single Thunder Warrior as the 'Primarch' of the Custodians in a mock comparison with the _actual_ Primarchs and their Legio Astartes.

Only the Astartes had Primarchs, there doesn't need to be such direct gene-fathers for all of the Imperium's genetically enhanced super soldiers


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## Cowbellicus

I just had an awesome realization here. The Petitioner's City by the palace is in the Himalayas. Specifically, Nepal.

Nepal lays claim to what is arguably the most badass group of warriors of all time : The Gurkhas. A little googling will turn up some astonishing things about them. So brave were they, there's a famous joke: 

http://www.timshen.truepath.com/preach/gurkha_courage.htm

Anyway, here's the thing: The highest rank in the Gurkhas is "Subedar". 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha
And how does Ghota address Babu Dhakal? "My Subedar"

Intentional or not, tying Arik and the Thunder Warriors to some of the premier badasses of all time is pretty awesome.

More cool Gurkha stuff:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/...d-gurkha-against-a-train-with-40-bandits.html
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/pun.html


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## happytravelling

*You left out the most important evidence*

Interesting. I also suspect that Arik was the Primarch of the Thunder Warriors, but you have left out the most important evidence.

The definition of a Primarch in the 40K universe is that the Primarch is the progenitor of the geneseed which is used to create his future 'sons'. For Arik to be considered a true Primarch, the Thunder Warriors must have geneseed. Arik shows the Outcast Dead his redactor, which is used to extract geneseed and is clearly not an modern space marine redactor. This proves the Thunder warriors had geneseed. We may not know what differences were in the Thunder warrior geneseed from the modern space marines, but we do know one of the Thunder warriors, Ghota, has acidic phlegm. 

Now, the real question is still, was the geneseed created outside his body and implanted, or was he 'remade' with the geneseed growing within him until it was mature enough to be implanted in other recruits? Either way, he was the probably the first and as we know, geneseed absorbs the traits of the implantee and passes them on to future generations, which means they were still his 'sons'.

When Arik is pondering the fate of the current Space Marines, he muses 'I wonder if the Primarchs know that they will be discarded when the Crusade is over (I am paraphrasing here)". He doesn't wonder about the Space Marines, he wonders about the Primarchs.

The two other differences between Arik and Rogal Dorn are telling. Arik was not created, he was 'remade' and does not remember who he was before. Unlike the other primarchs, Arik exudes an aura of fear, whereas the 20 created Primarchs exude an aura that seems to make people want to prostrate themselves before them.


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## MontytheMighty

Something about the Thunder Warriors being man for man physically superior to Space Marines just undermines the idea of an improvement from TW to SM. I get that Astartes are less prone to mental and physical deterioration but still...5 of them struggling with Ghota is a bit perturbing


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## Lux

The SM Were an improvement in the context of their intended purpose, they were to be soldiers, a police force, and governors. Not annihilators.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I always got the impression from The Outcast Dead that the reason for the superior physical strength of the Thunder Warriors was precisely because of their inferior genetic template. 

They had great strength, but their bodies rapidly deteriorated as a result. The Astartes were much more refined and stable albeit not as physically strong.


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## Brother Lucian

I speculate that the limited shelf life of the Thunder Warriors stems from that unlike the future astartes and their primarchs, they were not warp infused. Thusly they would eventually sicken and die, after the implanted power in their bodies was spent. Burning themselves up at an accelerated rate.

Delving into more speculation here, it have been hinted at several times that the Emperor made a deal with the chaos powers for knowledge to build the primarchs. Most have just believed it a lie, but what if theres a kernel of truth in it? 

Might not have involved dealings with the gods as claimed, but running out of time and seeing the limitations of pure genecrafted warriors, he went to the warp to infuse the beings of his newest creations with the ability to draw upon warp energy to empower themselves. Effectively building perpetually recharging batteries into the primarchs and the astartes, and why I think Arik Tarannis is so keen to aquire the geneseed of the outcast dead as a way to save himself and the remnants of the Thunder Warriors.

Edit: I hazard a guess that Arik Tarranis is the first attempt at infusing warp energy into someone as the peak of the thunder warrior project, but it did not work out perfectly even if it created a powerful warrior. So he went to the option of handcrafting the Primarchs from the bottom up, to make sure -every- gene was tuned and aligned to absorb warp energy. Only so much you can do with a being starting as a mortal man.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Just stringing together a few 'facts' we do have on the Unification Wars:
1. The Unification Wars took about 600 years according to Legion
2. The Legions Astares were stong enough individual fighting forces to participate in and effectively conclude the Unification Wars, not the Thunder Warriors, as explained in TOD with an excellent example of the Thousand Sons prosecuting one of the last free-standing countries(?) in Prospero Burns (or is it A Thousand Sons?).
3. The Primarch Project, by inference, was in development at least 100 years if not more before the conclusion of the Unification Wars.
4. The Custodes were already a stable and effective fighting force for the Emperor while the Primarchs were still gestating in their uber-test tubes, as indicated in The First Heretic.

I bring all these up as the Thunder Warriors were an early stage in the Emperor's genetic program that proably started long before the end of Old Night, so he could conclude the Unification Wars and prosecute the Great Crusade once the Warp Storms cleared up. That would suggest that the Thunder Warriors were proably in development up to 1,000 years before the start of the GC. It would be silly to think the Emperor would sit back on his laurels (no pun intended) when the development process of the TWs would lead to whole new avenues of advancement in the processes/intentions/needs for the next generation of super warriors.

The Custodes were the precursors to the Primarch Project and are incredibly strong individual fighters, have unknown longevity, and apparently unshakable loyalty, all of which sound like good evolutions from the Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs/Astares go freaky uber-human on the Primarch side of the equation, making lots of mini-me's on the Primarch side for the Emperor, with lots of group-think super warriors that can be produced both quickly and stably, compared to the Thunder Warriros. The Primarchs/Astares also have apparently unlimited longevity, considering there are Dreadnoughts with entombed Astares still creeping around from the Heresy.

Then you have the development initiated by Corax in Deliverance Lost, which is a whole step farther than what the Emperor did with the original Astares and is hinted to be on the level of Grey Knights in strenth/speed/reaction time, with a three week baking cycle. This is not to mention whatever the Emperor/Malcador does to enable the GKs to be that much above and beyond the Astares. In one of the UM books, a GK knows two UMs aren't infected with Chaos because he handily kicks both their asses in an unarmored/armed fight.

Shit, I had no intention about the length of the post, but this seems like rational 40K scientific evolution that all takes place over the space of an entire millennia. On a scientific basis, you could argue each generation was created by the earlier one, as I imagine the Emperor didn't start from scratch each time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> 1. The Unification Wars took about 600 years according to Legion


I don't remember that from _Legion_. Have you got a reference?


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't remember that from _Legion_. Have you got a reference?


Sorry for not including the full quote, but it's Chapter 3, page 97 of 554 in the epub version. 



"John Grammaticus had met the Emperor once, close on a thousand years before. The Emperor had been just another feudal warlord then, leading his thunder-armoured troops in an effort to consolidate his early Strife-age victories, and pave the way to eventual Unification."


Hmmmmm, I had it fixed in my head it was around 600 years prior to the GC, but it's actually 800 years. It also suggests that the Emperor had been warring for a bit already, so who knows if it had been 2, 100, or 200 years prior to that in which the Thunder Warriors had been fighting. I suppose you could argue that the quote doesn't title the Emperor's warriors as "Thunder Warriors" specifically, so who knows if they were the actual Arik Taranis crowd or what.

Another implication is the Thunder Warriors could have lived up to 600 years, or even 1,000 in the case of Arik Taranis. That doesn't seem to be the quick burnout much of this thread implies, but the difference between a freakishly long life span even in the 40K universe and immortality. It was probably another data point the Emperor used to improve the overall longevity of successive iterations of his super warriors.


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## happytravelling

I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.

Another indication that Thunder Warriors are prototypes for the Astares is that
when Ghota spits on the ground and walks away, the saliva starts to eat away
at the ground as any Space Marines saliva would do.

There is no indication that the Custodes had geneseed, as far as I can tell.

The other point is that Arik appears to be a very powerful psycher. Only when
Arik appears at the church entrance, does the Word Bearer sense their pursuers.
Arik tells his that he has only now ALLOWED the Word Bearer to sense them.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

happytravelling said:


> I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
> The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
> a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
> geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
> if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.


This is good reasoning, but I think the reason that Arik had an extractor was a need to get the geneseed of an Astares, not for use on themselves. Otherwise, there's no mention of the Thunder Warriors actually having geneseed.

The 'my son' comment could have been his use as a template for other Thunder Warriors, but that still doesn't indicate it's due to geneseed, which was a tool of mass-production. In 'Deliverance Lost', it's shown that 

the Primarchs were created from a common genetic solution that was modified for each of them, not from geneseed 
 I can see the same model being used by the Emperor for Thunder Warrior production, who seem to have been more vat-grown than regular humans who are mutated by the geneseed, which itself is an enhancement for the mass-production needed to prosecute the Great Crusade.


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## happytravelling

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> This is good reasoning, but I think the reason that Arik had an extractor was a need to get the geneseed of an Astares, not for use on themselves. Otherwise, there's no mention of the Thunder Warriors actually having geneseed.


Of course the reason that Arik had a redactor was to extract the geneseed, but we are not disputing that the purpose of a redactor, but WHERE he got the redactor. 
The redactor the Arik had was described by the outcast dead as primitive, yet clearly and unmistakably, a redactor. This seems to imply that the redactor that Arik had was one created before the Astares redactor was created. 

It's not a lot to go on, but it is what it is.


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## Marauderlegion

The problem when dealing with a character like the emperor is that no matter what has come before, when the truth, or just a chosen resolution has been revealed; it can always be explained away as "all part of the plan".


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## happytravelling

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I always got the impression from The Outcast Dead that the reason for the superior physical strength of the Thunder Warriors was precisely because of their inferior genetic template.


Arik himself ponders the question whether the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors knowing that they would eventually be discarded and built in the decay factor into their genetic structure. 

But the real answer to the question is how long will Arik and Ghota live after they have implanted their newly created geneseed(?). At the very least, it will stop the decay of their bodies. At best, they may live as long as a regular space marine.


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## MEQinc

happytravelling said:


> Another indication that Thunder Warriors are prototypes for the Astares is thatwhen Ghota spits on the ground and walks away, the saliva starts to eat away
> at the ground as any Space Marines saliva would do.


It's already well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes. That doesn't mean they have gene-seed.



happytravelling said:


> The redactor the Arik had was described by the outcast dead as primitive, yet clearly and unmistakably, a redactor. This seems to imply that the redactor that Arik had was one created before the Astares redactor was created.


1) It could be an early model of the reducter. An early model could easily be 'primitive' in comparison to modern models whilst still not being older than Astartes themselves.
2) It could be a home-made reducter. Again, clearly primitive but not dating to before the Astartes.



happytravelling said:


> But the real answer to the question is how long will Arik and Ghota live after they have implanted their newly created geneseed(?). At the very least, it will stop the decay of their bodies. At best, they may live as long as a regular space marine.


Why do you think it will stop their decay?

Geneseed doesn't have regenerative powers (also, you mean progenoids). Implantion in mature subjects seems to lead (universally AFAIK) to the death of the subject, not his regeneration. Surely if implanting it in Space Marines healed those Space Marines that would be common procedure (instead they do the opposite and remove the progenoid glads upon maturation).


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## Brother Lucian

Well if you think about it. The Thunder Warriors are beings that runs on too small batteries, crashing and burning when its drained. Whereas Astartes have a perpetual battery. But remove the progenoids from a still living Astartes, and his enhanced physiology starts to shut down, as they regulate the other organs. Theres been multiple ocassions of an Astartes feeling emasculated, or just like a mere man after his progenoids have been purloined. Such as that imperial fist in Malodrax. They have great significance for an Astartes, as they are their living link to their primarch and what which pushes them beyond mortal limits.


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## happytravelling

MEQinc said:


> It's already well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes. That doesn't mean they have gene-seed.


You are getting ahead of yourself. Saying that it is well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes, doesn't really add anything to this discussion, which is whether the thunder Warrior had geneseed. The evidence I have given is that the thunder Warriors had a Betcher's Gland, which suggests, but does not imply, that Thunder Warriors had geneseed. If they had similiar organs, the question becomes, where did these organs come from?



MEQinc said:


> 1) It could be an early model of the reducter. An early model could easily be 'primitive' in comparison to modern models whilst still not being older than Astartes themselves.
> 2) It could be a home-made reducter. Again, clearly primitive but not dating to before the Astartes.


Again, IF the Thunder Warriors had geneseed, then they would NEED a Reductor.



MEQinc said:


> Why do you think it will stop their decay?


Both Arik and Ghota were dying. Their skin is decayed and held together with sutures and wire. What is important here are the experiments that Arik is doing in his laboratory, and apparently has been for decades. We aren't told exactly what he is creating, but his failures mimic his own condition, which is that is body is decaying. One failure is describes as riddled with necrotic tissue, the tissue not able to distribute the super-oxygenated bloold efficiently. I would suggest he is trying to create a Haemastamen organ. 
At the end of the story, after he and Ghota are able to obtain Astares geneseed, he is finally successful and the two organs glisten bright red, with no signs of necrosis. I don't have the book here, but he tells Ghota that it means LIFE, "my son".
Arik is very smart and once the organs are implanted, I believe that he will be successful in halting the degeneration of his body and Ghota's.


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## happytravelling

MEQinc said:


> Geneseed doesn't have regenerative powers (also, you mean progenoids). Implantion in mature subjects seems to lead (universally AFAIK) to the death of the subject, not his regeneration. Surely if implanting it in Space Marines healed those Space Marines that would be common procedure (instead they do the opposite and remove the progenoid glads upon maturation).


No, I mean geneseed, which are also known as progenoid glands. I have already responded to the discussion of implantation. As I said, I believe that Arik is trying to create Haemastamen organs from the geneseed, which contain the genetic material needed to create each of the Astares organs.

I would like to thank you for the discussion, as it gives me a chance to review this. I look forward to writing about my ideas on what a true original STC is capable of that I have not seen written about (with references). I hope that you will also review that material.


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## MEQinc

happytravelling said:


> You are getting ahead of yourself. Saying that it is well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes, doesn't really add anything to this discussion, which is whether the thunder Warrior had geneseed.


My point was that being a prototype for the Astartes doesn't require having all the same properties as the Astartes, in particular the progenoids.



> The evidence I have given is that the thunder Warriors had a Betcher's Gland, which suggests, but does not imply, that Thunder Warriors had geneseed. If they had similiar organs, the question becomes, where did these organs come from?


Most Space Marine special organs (including the Betcher's Gland) are implanted separately into the Neophyte. This is because Space Marines are converted humans. Thunder Warriors however appear to be grown from scratch and thus likely are 'born' with them. 



> Again, IF the Thunder Warriors had geneseed, then they would NEED a Reductor.


Right. My point was that just because a Thunder Warrior has a reductor doesn't mean he has progenoids. 



> At the end of the story, after he and Ghota are able to obtain Astares geneseed, he is finally successful and the two organs glisten bright red, with no signs of necrosis. I don't have the book here, but he tells Ghota that it means LIFE, "my son".
> Arik is very smart and once the organs are implanted, I believe that he will be successful in halting the degeneration of his body and Ghota's.


The organs themselves no longer degenerate, which means they will not degenerate inside the Arik and Ghota. It does not mean that they will somehow stop the degeneration of other parts of their bodies. I would suggest that Arik is creating parts to replace those most damaged in themselves but this won't fix the underlying cause of the degeneration in other parts of their bodies.



happytravelling said:


> No, I mean geneseed, which are also known as progenoid glands.


Well see, "gene-seed" is a very loose term and can actually be applied to ALL the organs the Astartes are implanted with, not just the progenoids. It's important to be clear here, because evidence shows that Thunder Warriors have something approximating a Bletcher's Gland and thus can be said to have some 'gene-seed'. However a reductor is used exclusively to harvest the progenoids, which are another type of gene-seed and one that does not appear to be evident in the Thunder Warriors.

Is this debate then about whether the Thunder Warriors possess certain parts of the gene-seed, or about whether they possess progenoid glands?



> I have already responded to the discussion of implantation.


Actually no, you haven't. You talk about what organs he's growing and what they do in Space Marines. You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.


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## happytravelling

MEQinc said:


> Most Space Marine special organs (including the Betcher's Gland) are implanted separately into the Neophyte. This is because Space Marines are converted humans. Thunder Warriors however appear to be grown from scratch and thus likely are 'born' with them.


No, you are clearly wrong. When Arik tells the Outcast Dead his true name, he states beforehand, "I no longer remember my mortal name, before I was remade into what I am now...". He was not BORN with these implants, he was born a mortal man.



MEQinc said:


> The organs themselves no longer degenerate, which means they will not degenerate inside the Arik and Ghota. It does not mean that they will somehow stop the degeneration of other parts of their bodies. I would suggest that Arik is creating parts to replace those most damaged in themselves but this won't fix the underlying cause of the degeneration in other parts of their bodies.


I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will repeat what I have said, using smaller words, with more detail as to what I was trying to say. 

Arik and Ghota are dying. The GOAL of Arik's laboratory experiments seems to be to try and stop the degeneration of their bodies. He may even say that at one point, but I do not have the book here, so I can't quote it. We do not know exactly what he is trying to create, but whatever it is, it is an organ of some type. Given the description, I have suggested that it is a Haemastamen organ, which allows Astartes' blood's biochemical composition to carry oxygen and nutrients more efficiently. I only suggest this because of the reference several times to superoxygenated blood in the description of the organ. 

Your suggestion implies that he needs to create several organs to replace what no longer functions, but if that were the case, he would not proclaim success with the creation of just a single organ. 

Arik is a very smart person. He has spent decades if not centuries trying to create something that will allow both Ghota and Arik to live. The fact that he needs geneseed is interesting, but does not say a lot about what he needs it for, or whether the Thunder Warriors had geneseed.



MEQinc said:


> Well see, "gene-seed" is a very loose term and can actually be applied to ALL the organs the Astartes are implanted with, not just the progenoids. It's important to be clear here, because evidence shows that Thunder Warriors have something approximating a Bletcher's Gland and thus can be said to have some 'gene-seed'. However a reductor is used exclusively to harvest the progenoids, which are another type of gene-seed and one that does not appear to be evident in the Thunder Warriors.


Now you're just talking down to me, with the 'well see..'.

Perhaps you did not read what I wrote or do not understand Space Marine geneseed, also known as Progenoid glands. Again, I will try to explain with more detail as to what I was trying to say. The GENESEED, contains the genetic information to culture and grow each of the Space Marine implants. This is why an apothecary does not have to remove each organ, just the GENESEED (also known as progenoid glands). The fact that Arik believes that he needs GENESEED to complete his experiments, does not mean, as you have said, that he is just going to implant the geneseed directly into his body, because as you have noted, it would probably kill him (but then if he is a Primarch, it may not). 

As I have said, Arik is very smart, which makes you wonder what he would need GENESEED for? He is creating an organ, which he needs for both he and Ghota to LIVE (his words). If he is as smart as a Primarch, he would be trying to create something to reverse their degeneration, not just stop it. Again, we are talking Primarch level intelligence (I believe). I have suggested that he needs it to create a Haemastamen organ, which he would implant directly into himself and Ghota without killing them. 



MEQinc said:


> Actually no, you haven't. You talk about what organs he's growing and what they do in Space Marines. You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.


Yes, I did. I said that he was trying to create an organ that he seems to think will at least halt his degeneration. You are the one that keeps talking about trying to implant the entire geneseed into his body. I never mentioned this.

And he is not trying to create a Space Marine, he is trying to halt his own degeneration. Implanting a single organ, made by Primarch level intelligence, is not the same as trying to create a new space marine.



MEQinc said:


> Is this debate then about whether the Thunder Warriors possess certain parts of the gene-seed, or about whether they possess progenoid glands?


This is not a debate, this is a discussion. If you read the title and first post of this thread, it is whether Arik Taranis was a 'proto-primarch'. This discussion has been that if the Thunder Warriors had at least some of the organs that the space marines had, then where did they come from? Was Arik the progenitor of the Thunder Warriors geneseed that would be used to create the organs implanted into later Thunder Warriors? Or were the organs implanted into Arik and the geneseed grew within him until it was ready to be implanted into other Thunder Warriors? 

I do not know but talking about this has certainly clarified many things in my mind, which is why we are having this discussion, not debate. I admit, none of the evidence is clear cut, but the richness of the OUTCAST DEAD, is that it contribute new information to the WH40K universe that is now part of canon and we could discuss endlessly what it all means.


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## Phoebus

Something I wanted to interject in this discussion... while the organs created from gene-seed are designed for male children ranging from 10 to 18 years of age, they can be implanted into adults. When applied to adults, however, the full process has a high mortality rate. Per earlier background material, certain organs also don't have the same effect on grown subjects: older individuals will not grow as tall or as large as individuals implanted at 10 years of age.

I say all this to point out that it's by no means impossible an impossible scheme for Arik Taranis to try to implant gene seed-derived organs in himself and Ghota. The main thing to consider is whether Arik knows how gene-seed implantation works. The Index Astartes article on the topic indicates that:



> "Each of these organs is extremely complicated and because many of the organs only work properly when another organ is present, the removal or mutation of one organ may affect the exact functioning of the others."


I sincerely doubt Arik Taranis possesses intelligence on the level of a Primarch. I suspect he is a very intelligent individual who combines his native smarts with a great deal of experience and knowledge. It would make for a rather weak story if he was just stumbling about, amateur hour-style, trying to simply imitate Space Marine processes on a hope and a prayer.


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## MEQinc

happytravelling said:


> No, you are clearly wrong. When Arik tells the Outcast Dead his true name, he states beforehand, "I no longer remember my mortal name, before I was remade into what I am now...". He was not BORN with these implants, he was born a mortal man.


Ah, I had forgotten that part. That means he's obviously not a Primarch (like thing) then.



> I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will repeat what I have said, using smaller words, with more detail as to what I was trying to say.


And I'll do the same. Getting an organ transplant doesn't fix the disease that caused the organ to fail in the first place. Say your kidneys fail as a result of a brain tumor. You need a new kidney in order to survive, so one is taken from a perfectly healthy donor. This kidney is itself fine, it will not fail or degrade on its own. However once it is implanted in you it will begin to degrade because of your brain tumor. The implant has extended your life but it has not saved you.

Arik is trying to procure a transplant organ but that in no way indicates that he can fix the underlying disease.



> Your suggestion implies that he needs to create several organs to replace what no longer functions, but if that were the case, he would not proclaim success with the creation of just a single organ.


I don't know how many organs he needs. I find it hard to believe that just one could fix all the problems the Thunder Warriors have. Further the fact that he took a progenoid and not one of the other gene-seed organs suggests that he needs more than one.

He could claim success based on the fact that he has created a method of growing successful organs. The organ itself doesn't necessarily represent the end of the project. Just the stage where it moves from "how do I do this" to "let's do this".



> Now you're just talking down to me, with the 'well see..'.


That was meant to make the tone of my post conversational rather than patronizing. I was concerned that opening with things like "No you're wrong" or "Perhaps you need to read my post" would come across as overly confrontational.



> Perhaps you did not read what I wrote or do not understand Space Marine geneseed, also known as Progenoid glands.


Perhaps you did not read my post. Gene-seed refers to all the implanted organs. The progenoids are also commonly called gene-seed. In order to prevent confusion one should clarify which you are referring to. Confusion like when I say "implanting gene-seed" and you read "implanting progenoids". I know Arik doesn't appear to want to implant the progenoid. However the progenoid is only one of the organs that constitutes gene-seed. Arik clearly wants to implant at least one of these organs.



> but If he is as smart as a Primarch, he would be trying to create something to reverse their degeneration, not just stop it. Again, we are talking Primarch level intelligence (I believe).


1) There's no evidence to suggest that Arik has Primarch level intelligence.
2) Having Primarch level intelligence does not equate to being able to fix everything wrong with a person, or even understand everything that's wrong. Corax is only partly able to understand what the Emperor did with the Space Marines and that is with extensive help. 
3) You believe Arik can not only understand what's going on with the Thunder Warriors ans see where the problem is but fix something that either the Emperor couldn't fix or didn't want to. That's not Primarch level intelligence its Emperor level intelligence.


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## emporershand89

SoulGazer said:


> this just means BL is making a cool character to be killed off at some point in another book.


Like they did with Sarpeon of the Soul Drinker's Chapter after the mutations were discovered. The man kicked Tzeentch in the face God Damn it!! I cannot beleive they had him killed by a Imperial Fist. Ugh!! :ireful2:


Back to topic, so I am going to buy OutCast Dead and read it as it seems a good and interesting Fluff read. However I would like to make a few pointers/questions about the Outcasts and Arik himself.

From your Bulletins, Cowbellicus, you make him seems almost on par with the Emporer himself. He possibly discovered the secret of the gene-seed (of which only the Emporer currently knows that greedy bastard), quite the accomplished Warrior, and lead his men to victory against the odds. Is he possibly the Emporer's Equal?

Also Arik and the Outcast's, who from my limited undertsanding were captured Thunder Warrior's, managed to fight past the Custodes with little but their bare hands and primitive weapons. Does this make them better than the Adeptus Custodes, who are suppose to be the most Elite form of Astartes in the Imperium?

Finally Arik was supposedly killed, but as Cowbellicus clearly points out he is very much alive in the novel. It also seems he possibly discovered the secret to the Gene-Seed at the end of the book. Does this mean he is still around, possibly creating a new Astartes Legion


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## Brother Lucian

The oucast dead is astartes, theres only 2 thunder warriors present in the book. Ghota and Arik.

Also, the progenoids IS the geneseed organs.


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## Cowbellicus

> 1) There's no evidence to suggest that Arik has Primarch level intelligence.


Ah, but there is. If you read the section where he's working with his lab, it flat out says that no one else could have unravelled the mysteries except the emperor himself. To me that's one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Arik is more than just a mere Badass Level Thunder Warrior. He may not be a Primarch with a capital P, but maybe he was the testbed for many of the pieces of tech the emperor eventually rolled into the primarchs themselves. Something like :

- Emperor builds Arik Taranis with a host of weird prototype tech that makes him a primarch-like one-off. 
- Emperor distills the process down and mass produces Thunder Warriors. 
- Emperor decides it's time to get more serious about primarch-type warriors and takes what he learned from his Arik experiments and runs with it. 

It's pretty difficult to resolve the extreme levels of Awesome attributed to him without considering him as a unique superbeing akin to a Primarch. Clearly, the idea behind Thunder Warriors in general as a piece of fluff is to provide a similar-but-not-exactly-the-same precursor to the Astartes in both form, function and origin. In that context, Arik makes sense as a similar-but-not-exactly-the-same precursor to a Primarch as he was clearly the one wielding the pimp hand at that time.

Also : Older Is Better, Super Prototype, Badass Grandpa, potentially Stronger With Age, and maybe, just maybe, my personal hope, Upgrade vs Prototype Fight. Please God make that happen during the siege of Terra.

Random thought, if a little mundane : Maybe Arik and his resurrected Thunder Warriors become transmogrified into the Legion of the Damned in the long run? It makes some sense.


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## Gret79

MEQinc said:


> You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.


Minor point - it doesn't always result in death - the wolves 13th company were too old to become marines, yet they all tried anyway. They had a high failure rate, but the 13th company ended up as marines and not augmented warriors like Kor Phaeron and Luther.
[/minor pedantism]

Carry on :laugh:


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## Lux

Arik Taranis is a clone of the Emperor, one in which the Emperor deliberately made flawed to ensure it would not become a rival to his position of power.


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## Marauderlegion

Lux said:


> Arik Taranis is a clone of the Emperor, one in which the Emperor deliberately made flawed to ensure it would not become a rival to his position of power.



Based on what? I do not doubt the Emperor thinking in the terms espoused by the second part of your statement, but that's all it is.

Do you have a logical basis, or reference for this theory?


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## Lux

Marauderlegion said:


> Based on what? I do not doubt the Emperor thinking in the terms espoused by the second part of your statement, but that's all it is.
> 
> Do you have a logical basis, or reference for this theory?


Yes

Several times throughout the novel, and several other horus heresy books the Emperor as alluded to his prior creations such as "prototype illusions bearing exact likeness to a molecular level".


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## Marauderlegion

Admittedly, that makes sense alongside Arik's Blinding Aura (man is THAT an over-rated feature, or what?)


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## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> Arik Taranis is a clone of the Emperor, one in which the Emperor deliberately made flawed to ensure it would not become a rival to his position of power.





Lux said:


> Yes
> 
> Several times throughout the novel, and several other horus heresy books the Emperor as alluded to his prior creations such as "prototype illusions bearing exact likeness to a molecular level".


:laugh:

I'm not even gonna bother asking for references, because I know it will never happen. But, considering your last claim about the Emperor, you're pretty much saying that Arik Taranis is a stunted Void Dragon shard clone.


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## Tawa

Chompy Bits said:


> But, considering your last claim about the Emperor, you're pretty much saying that Arik Taranis is a stunted Void Dragon shard clone.


Seems legit :crazy:


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Marauderlegion said:


> Admittedly, that makes sense alongside Arik's Blinding Aura (man is THAT an over-rated feature, or what?)


I'm sure the Emperor was thinking about the help foiling the paparazzi, or perhaps bringing his own flash-bulb effect with him? Good lighting is such a pain in a universe consumed by eternal warfare.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lux, what if it isn't really the Emperor on the thone but the clone you speak of?

It would explain why the Golden Throne is failing.


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## Brother Lucian

Can we get back on topic, thread is derailing into fanon.


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## kwak76

So I'm guessing if Arik Taranis does participate during the siege of Terra . Will he take the side of Horus or the Emperor? 
Since the Emperor disbanded the thunder warriors there has to be some bitterness towards him. However, will Arik take the side of horus ? 

I read "Outcast Dead", and had a tough time with it . Actually I forgot most of it because I thought it was that bad. 

It be interesting to see how strong a thunder warrior is against a primarch. If I remember correctly Arik was allot stronger than the average space marine.


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## Tawa

kwak76 said:


> Since the Emperor disbanded the thunder warriors


That's a polite way of putting it :laugh:


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## Phoebus

But, strangely enough, it doesn't seem as if Arik *is* harboring resentment. I definitely need to re-read that part of the novel. That doesn't mean that Arik would necessarily side with the Emperor, but I think it's quite a leap to assume he would fight alongside the Traitor Legions. I imagine he would be quite shocked by what they have become by the time they get to Terra.

Really, the key thing where this sub-topic is concerned is that we don't know much about Arik's ideals or lack thereof.


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## Achaylus72

If you go back even further in time, it is postulated that Fuhrer Adolf Hitler was the first Chaos Lord.


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## Lux

Malus Darkblade said:


> Lux, what if it isn't really the Emperor on the thone but the clone you speak of?
> 
> It would explain why the Golden Throne is failing.


The entity on the Throne is only the Emperor in name, the entity on the throne is indeed a "illusory phantom, shrouded in enigmatic likeness to the Emperor".

In the Early days of the Emperor's conquest he saw that as his market acquisition grew that he required more equity, thus he needed to generate more capital. In order to do this the Emperor decided to improve his operations output, thus Arik was was created to fulfill the position of the Emperor's top "Manager".

Unlike a the Primarchs which were a beta version of Arik, he was cloned in one instantaneous process. Furthermore the Primarchs were create to be specialized in particular ways, and to excel in particular fields they were not made to be a jack of all trades. Contrastingly Arik's purpose was to be the second in command of the Emperor's regime and to fulfill all all dimensions of leadership, from warrior, to scientist, to developer, to manager, to politician. This is why Arik embodies near every talent of the Emepror, unlike the Primarchs were given individual and specific talents of the Emperor.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lux, I was on board with you for the most part but please do not go against the fluff by associating microeconomics with the Emperor.


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## Lux

Oh but the Emperor was a very "economics" type of woman, his entire view of conquest was heavily based on logistics and marketing. Rathee than adapt to the demands of the market, he sought to gain a position where he could dictate the demands of the market and then be the sole supplier of the demanded products/services which in this case was human survival.

The golden throne is currently failing because it is inhabited not by the Emperor but by another entity altogether...


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## Gret79

Lux said:


> Oh but the Emperor was a very "economics" type of woman, his entire view of conquest was heavily based on logistics and marketing. Rathee than adapt to the demands of the market, he sought to gain a position where he could dictate the demands of the market and then be the sole supplier of the demanded products/services which in this case was human survival.
> 
> The golden throne is currently failing because it is inhabited not by the Emperor but by another entity altogether...


 
Eh?

Is the emperor a man or woman? I need to know 

Which entity is on the golden throne? I'm curious now. I've heard the Horus theory, but I'm wondering if you have another candidate


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## Tawa

Gret79 said:


> Is the emperor a man or woman? I need to know


Nooooo!!!! Don't open the trapdoor! :shok:


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## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> The entity on the Throne is only the Emperor in name, the entity on the throne is indeed a "illusory phantom, shrouded in enigmatic likeness to the Emperor".


You do know that putting random bits of your rambling in quotation marks does not actually qualify as providing a reference, right? Just checkin' to make sure.


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## Angel of Blood

Gret79 said:


> Eh?
> 
> Is the emperor a man or woman? I need to know
> 
> Which entity is on the golden throne? I'm curious now. I've heard the Horus theory, but I'm wondering if you have another candidate





Tawa said:


> Nooooo!!!! Don't open the trapdoor! :shok:


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