# 40k 6th Edition Release Info



## The Eyeball

I'll just leave this here...


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## humakt

Could be an amazing document or just a very elaborate troll. However I would quite like a July release.


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## normtheunsavoury

It keeps mentioning TV ads, I really can't see it happening so I'll call bull on this one.


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## SoulGazer

If this is real, they're going to retaliate by delaying the entire thing a whole year simply out of spite.


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## Doelago

GW? TV adds? :laugh:


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## Djinn24

I can see them pushing TV ads, look how well the Space Marine TV spots did for that game.


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## normtheunsavoury

djinn24 said:


> I can see them pushing TV ads, look how well the Space Marine TV spots did for that game.


I'll believe it when I see it. 

The SM tv spots were by THQ, promoting their own product. GW have always steered well clear of anything other than their own in house advertising and it's not something I can see changing. They even refuse news paper coverage when its free (as a recent Metro article proved). 

I could be wrong but until I see the ads I'll stick with calling BS on this.


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## Doelago

djinn24 said:


> I can see them pushing TV ads, look how well the Space Marine TV spots did for that game.


But thats Space Marine, it was a video game... But when we are talking anything GW proper it tends to look like, um, this: 7


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## Jezlad

GW TV Ads muahahaha

Actually, perhaps BoW have made them reconsider their TV stance... just maybe.

I have a few mates in the acting game who'd love to do some TV ads. Hit me up.


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## GrizBe

My local store manager was chatting with the regional manager about GW TV the other other day when in... so GW TV sounds plausable, along with the rumours of the mid year release date...

That said, some of the terminology and layout seems kinda off to me,...


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## TheReverend

man, everyone know's those TV ads are full of actors... like there are ever that many women in a store!  Saying that, my GF loves going in her local store now, due to all the attention she receives :laugh:


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## Tomlev40

Those ads are so bad. Definitely not the way to go. 
I can't figure out what PoS means (Herp Derp)
Project Prisoner? I can't believe this is true.


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## normtheunsavoury

POS refers to Point Of Sale, it's stuff like instore ads, posters, stands and counter displays.


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## Eviltim

Hate to say it, but info from a new member and a single poster? Maybe there's a legitimate reason for this, but it does seem almost 'troll' to me.

But, I've been proved wrong before, and to be fair this holds up a lot better than "It must be SM vs Necron Because that's how the pics in the codex go." (Yes, that's a legitimate 6th Rumour)


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## humakt

To be fair this does look like a 'standard' retail terminology. I get to see these quite a lot from different retailers. Cant say if it looks like a GW one though.


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## Nicholas Hadrian

I say damn you you naysayers, even a company of stupid people can wise up eventually.

Besides, picture this;

CGI Images...
There is a man, standing on a hill, the bodies of the dead surrounding him, he clutches his lasgun to his chest. panting with fear.

Slowly, rising behind him, a gigantic and horrifying form, black as night and terrible to behold.

It screams an exhultation to the dark gods, raising it's weapon to cleave the poor guardsman in two.

Then, it screams, collapses, it's head snapping back as a blast of light shoots it's faceplate. The guardsman turns and sees a chimera behind him and runs to it whooping.

Camera pans out, we see the guardsman and dead Chaos lord as two minis on a table, beautifully painted by the 'Eavy Metal Boyz, one guy curses, looking down at a failed armor save of 1.

The GW logo comes up, voiceover "Warhammer 40,000, where in the grim dark future of the 41st Millenium, there is only WAR!"

"Check out your local Games Workshop store for more."

Voila. GW tv spot ads that don't suck balls.


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## Brother Asmodeus

They are US TV ad's probably done ridiculously cheap on some naff cable station for $4.50.

So maybe this is US marketing details or more likely...

...TROLL!!!


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## bitsandkits

that thing is genuine, End of story , thats the single most genuine bit of information i have seen in a rumour section on any forum since anyone posted a photo of a green from a games day. look at it, its dropped out of an employees pocket, the terminology is perfect, its got the exact key below the boxes that GW use , its riddled with retail jargon, the dates are correct AND most importantly a faker/spoofer would NOT have included GW TV adverts, because as we all know GW dont do TV spots.....yet. 
Plus its been knocked out on Excell by an employee who wanted the job done quickly to communicate a point, an internet faker would have included stuff to make you think its from GW like a fake water mark or letter head or something. Its simplicity is its selling point, i have produced documents like that hundreds of times for different companies as a manager/lacky as hand outs at meetings etc 

I would bet my house on the info in that document is genuine.

also forgot to mention , the TV thing is likely to tie in with the release of Hobbit latter in the year, which may also have a TV spot, Or could be some form of Web TV like Breast's of War


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## GrizBe

From what I know with chatting about GW TV to my local store manager, its going to be kind of an instore and online thing... kinda long the lines of what beasts of war do.... IE, new product highlights and previews, teaser trailers like they did for necrons and dreadfleet etc...


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## bitsandkits

Also Project prisoner makes perfect sense when you think about it


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## MadCowCrazy

I wont say much other than that this is genuine :crazy:


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## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> I wont say much other than that this is genuine :crazy:


seconded :wink::wink:


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## Eviltim

Okay, maybe I missed something, But could someone explain "Project Prisoner"

Also chatting to a GW Staff member today, he 'theorises' 6th in june/july time which works (Obviously he knows nothing but rumour, and is 'theorising' but he's been pretty on the ball with these things so far


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## bitsandkits

who is the prisoner ? what is his number ?


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## GrizBe

bitsandkits said:


> Also Project prisoner makes perfect sense when you think about it


What, you mean the Emperor being Number 6?


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## The Sullen One

GrizBe said:


> What, you mean the Emperor being Number 6?


If he's number six, who's going to fill for the giant floating ball.


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## MidnightSun

We need number two.

But who does Number Two work for?!

Midnight


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## SilverTabby

For any other company that might be a legitimate document. However, GW store documents really don't read like that. The stores also wouldn't be 'brainstorming' this early - that would start at Easter at the earliest for a summer release.

so that would leave this as being a document from Head Office. Again, the language doesn't scan for something from GW HQ, and if that's a legitimate leak then someone's about to be fired from a great height. 

From my experience, that doesn't look like a GW document. Nice try though.


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## bitsandkits

Well silver guess someone is for the chop at gw hq then


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## SilverTabby

*Shrugs* Personally, I really don't care if it's real or not. I'm just saying that my experience leads me to believe it isn't. We all know 40k is coming out next summer anyway, so why the big deal over a piece of dubiously worded paper that tells us what we know anyway?


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## Jezlad

SilverTabby said:


> *Shrugs* Personally, I really don't care if it's real or not. I'm just saying that my experience leads me to believe it isn't. We all know 40k is coming out next summer anyway, so why the big deal over a piece of dubiously worded paper that tells us what we know anyway?


I think the point is before this it was "rumour", if this is legit we have factual info. So yes it is a big deal despite the rumours doing the rounds.

This dispels the rumour.


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## bitsandkits

Not to mention someone broke genuine info here on heresy ,which is great for our site


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## SilverTabby

Not to rain on everyones day, but just how is everyone so sure this is genuine? As was said in the first page, its a new person, with a slightly folded piece of paper with no actual back-up that it is real. His profile doesn't even say if he's UK based. If he's posting from the US then the chances he's genuine drop to virtually zero. 

Is there something making this absolutely legit that I'm simply missing? Because I just don't see it.

If it is legit, then cool. We have our release date


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## normtheunsavoury

I used to work in retail and I've never seen anything like the piece of paper everyone has so much faith in. 
Working for Threshers (now out of business, ha ha!) we had promo changes on an almost weekly basis but everything was top down, head office would send you the POS and a brief list of what was contained a few days before the planned promo change, not eight months in advance saying it was some ideas they had come up with in a 'brain storming' session. 

Like SilverTabby says, what am I missing? What makes everyone so sure that this is legit?

It's well known that although GW store managers may like to let you believe they are the center of all knowledge. They're not, they generally know less than we do about upcoming releases this far in advance. Because of the risk of a leak GW are never going to tell anyone this far in advance what they've got planned.


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## Skig

Well if the info on that sheet is correct then the release would be on the day of my birthday :grin:


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## Achaylus72

We all know that companies use code for secret product projects, could Prisoner mean 6th Edition.

I don't know if this is genuine or not so i'll take this info with a dose of salt.


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## Djinn24

Norm, do you seriously think that at HQ they just come up with stuff a few weeks prior in the retail set up? These type of things are thought up months if not years in advanced. Bet you they already have a good idea when 7th will be released.

Silver you must have never been to GW HQ US in Memphis....


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## Desolatemm

I've been there! On Google Maps ^_^










By the way, is that Sasquatch in their parking lot?










EDIT:
Don't worry, its just a space marine!


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## normtheunsavoury

djinn24 said:


> Norm, do you seriously think that at HQ they just come up with stuff a few weeks prior in the retail set up? These type of things are thought up months if not years in advanced. Bet you they already have a good idea when 7th will be released.
> 
> Silver you must have never been to GW HQ US in Memphis....


Not in the least bit, I know that it's a long process what I was saying (until I received a message that cleared things up for me) was that I didn't think something like this would just pop into the public forum directly from HQ, I thought it had come from a GW store somewhere, it turns out it didn't.


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## Cheexsta

normtheunsavoury said:


> I used to work in retail and I've never seen anything like the piece of paper everyone has so much faith in.
> Working for Threshers (now out of business, ha ha!) we had promo changes on an almost weekly basis but everything was top down, head office would send you the POS and a brief list of what was contained a few days before the planned promo change, not eight months in advance saying it was some ideas they had come up with in a 'brain storming' session.


I still work in retail (not GW, for the record), and while I'm not a manager, this is the sort of thing that gets brainstormed during managers' meetings. Eight months out is not unreasonable for big releases; for us, the last MM was a few months ago and they discussed the big releases we'd have before Christmas.

For all we know, this may just be one idea put out there by one store/regional manager, so a lot of it might not even happen. The dates are most likely to be spot-on, though. Assuming it's real


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## Nicholas Hadrian

Could SOMEONE please explain what is making you guys so sure this is legit? For all the reasons you gave, yes that's logical, but it PROVES nothing.


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## Zion

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Could SOMEONE please explain what is making you guys so sure this is legit? For all the reasons you gave, yes that's logical, but it PROVES nothing.


MadCowCrazy and BitsAndKits both seem to have a source saing its real, and they were quick to collaberate it (MadCowCrazy also collects and works to confirm rumors here too, so its usually a pretty good bet that the info is likely correct when he posts it).


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## SilverTabby

djinn24 said:


> Norm, do you seriously think that at HQ they just come up with stuff a few weeks prior in the retail set up? These type of things are thought up months if not years in advanced. Bet you they already have a good idea when 7th will be released.
> 
> Silver you must have never been to GW HQ US in Memphis....


You know, you're right. Living 2 miles down the road from GW HQ UK, I've never been to the Memphis site. :wink:

I do however have a very good working knowledge of how they do things in both the Studio and the UK retail stores. The release strategy is come up with at HQ. This will be presented to the national managers meeting sometime in the spring. The actual plans for the release will make it to the stores about a month in advance, tops, just enough time to paint up release miniatures. Advertising material is the same through all stores and centrally produced. 

This structure means everything is coordinated and ready before any plans ever hit the stores. Even regional managers won't know the plans til spring. They've got Christmas and the easter holidays to worry about first. 

As for 7th - yes, the Studio upper managment will have a rough 10 year plan. But nothing more than roughly what and when...


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## yostu

This is a very interesting information.. so u are telling us that there is someone knowin' info MONTHS before the release date of all the products? surely is like that (we all know how the world runs) but why there aren't SURE rumors then? (also if the word "rumor" would be inappropriate then)
it's just a point of view, not a WAAWAWAWAAAAAAAARGHHH U ARE A DONKEY! 
I could love it too if i can know all the release dates


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## Zion

yostu said:


> This is a very interesting information.. so u are telling us that there is someone knowin' info MONTHS before the release date of all the products? surely is like that (we all know how the world runs) but why there aren't SURE rumors then? (also if the word "rumor" would be inappropriate then)
> it's just a point of view, not a WAAWAWAWAAAAAAAARGHHH U ARE A DONKEY!
> I could love it too if i can know all the release dates


There are no "sure rumors" because things change (just go look at the Sisters rumors right before the the WD news hit, and then the surprise WD release that caught a lot of us off guard). Best we can do is how likely the rumors are.


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## RocketFire

Regarding how product manufacturers operate towards "new model" here's some insight to how early design stages are implemented..
Although this is in a completely different field, I think it does show some sort of relevance..
in the automotive industry its common practise to have future models on the table well in advance. E.g. When Holden released the VZ commodore, the VE chassis was already in development; when BMW released the E46 chassis, the e92 chassis was already heavy in R&D.. hell, take formula 1 in general for example, to stay competitive, they spend depending on the team between 10s to 100s of millions of dollars per year from mid season onwards merely to stay competitive for the next year..
different field I know, but I think still relevant as it proves the point that big company decisions are made well in advance. To bring this back into context, 6th edition was probably already in development when 5th edition was released and from the look I have of it, everythings pretty well finished production wise and this just looks like marketing strategy.. the release time frame was more likely than not decided on even before the start of the year and as the date draws closer, its time for GW to start moving pawns into place.. 
seems kinda funny that a first post member drops this, wonder if the poster has an I.P. blocker to stop tracking shenanigans.. It definately feels like someone from marketing or closer to the point, someone close to someone in marketing who's liberated the info through one avenue or another..

This is just my interpretation..


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## notsoevil

I saw this on another forum the day before it made it to Heresy.

There was more story to how it was found.

Perhaps the OP is also from that forum.

With the nods of confirmation, plus that back story, I have no reason to doubt this being real.

Pretty neat info. Maybe I'll actually finish my army before then.


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## bitsandkits

notsoevil said:


> I saw this on another forum the day before it made it to Heresy.
> 
> There was more story to how it was found.
> 
> Perhaps the OP is also from that forum.
> 
> With the nods of confirmation, plus that back story, I have no reason to doubt this being real.
> 
> Pretty neat info. Maybe I'll actually finish my army before then.


which forum was it on?


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## slaaneshy

And what's the back story


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## SunThirster

GW had TV adverts when they first launched Lord of the Rings, i remember seeing them and thinking wtf!!

If beasts of war can get on TV im sure GW could if they wanted to.


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## Master_Marius

well if the rumors are not wrong...

TAU early 2012

6th edition for july with CHAOS Space Marines.

ELDAR late 2012


And then we have left in order of older relase: Black Templars, Dark Angels, Orks, Demons...


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## whiplash308

A July release? 
-grabs plenty of salt, just in case-
Interesting.

Well, possible birthday gift. I'm still running off of 4th edition. Hooray for lack of 5th ed. rule book! /facepalm.


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## MaidenManiac

Master_Marius said:


> well if the rumors are not wrong...
> 
> TAU early 2012
> 
> 6th edition for july with CHAOS Space Marines.
> 
> ELDAR late 2012
> 
> 
> And then we have left in order of older relase: Black Templars, Dark Angels, Orks, Demons...


Ive heard loose rumours about a Fantasy Daemons release for early 2013 and if (big if with extra salt) that holds true then I assume that 40k Daemons will recieve the same.


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## Pssyche

Could make for a very interesting Summer Slaughter Miniature Exchange...


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## StenMK1

Hmmm...:grin:


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## jaysen

RocketFire said:


> Regarding how product manufacturers operate towards "new model" here's some insight to how early design stages are implemented..
> Although this is in a completely different field, I think it does show some sort of relevance..
> in the automotive industry its common practise to have future models on the table well in advance. E.g. When Holden released the VZ commodore, the VE chassis was already in development; when BMW released the E46 chassis, the e92 chassis was already heavy in R&D.. hell, take formula 1 in general for example, to stay competitive, they spend depending on the team between 10s to 100s of millions of dollars per year from mid season onwards merely to stay competitive for the next year..
> different field I know, but I think still relevant as it proves the point that big company decisions are made well in advance. To bring this back into context, 6th edition was probably already in development when 5th edition was released and from the look I have of it, everythings pretty well finished production wise and this just looks like marketing strategy.. the release time frame was more likely than not decided on even before the start of the year and as the date draws closer, its time for GW to start moving pawns into place..
> seems kinda funny that a first post member drops this, wonder if the poster has an I.P. blocker to stop tracking shenanigans.. It definately feels like someone from marketing or closer to the point, someone close to someone in marketing who's liberated the info through one avenue or another..
> 
> This is just my interpretation..


How the heck are you a member of Heresy for 3 years, yet only have 2 posts?


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## Zion

Found this thanks to BoLS actually citing a source (HERE):



> After my time away (what do you mean you didnt notice?  ) with friends. I have heard a few rumours for the GW high up through a mate. His source is GWs own Phil Kelly, who has just started work on the Tau Codex.
> 
> 1) 6th ed boxset is set to be Eldar Vs CSMs, as they will be the among the first 6th ed codexes.
> 
> 2) Eldar will be first, then Tau or CSMs
> 
> 3) Force org in 6th is undergoing a fairly interesting change. Slots will be as they are, but you can sacrifice 2 FOC slots to gain an extra one somewhere else. you can drop 2 fasts and get an extra heavy. Or a heavy and a fast and get an elite. Only thing you cant get is extra HQs i think.
> 
> Just some food for thought.


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## Desolatemm

It would be neat to have Necron and Eldar back to back codex releases. Inspire some fluff battles!


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## whiplash308

Really? Eldar being the first 6th edition codex? Hmmmm. That's a very tough one to believe, but I do believe that Eldar and CSM will be in the starter set since a lot of speculation has gone about not being a Loyalist army.


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## Eleven

RocketFire said:


> Regarding how product manufacturers operate towards "new model" here's some insight to how early design stages are implemented..
> Although this is in a completely different field, I think it does show some sort of relevance..
> in the automotive industry its common practise to have future models on the table well in advance. E.g. When Holden released the VZ commodore, the VE chassis was already in development; when BMW released the E46 chassis, the e92 chassis was already heavy in R&D.. hell, take formula 1 in general for example, to stay competitive, they spend depending on the team between 10s to 100s of millions of dollars per year from mid season onwards merely to stay competitive for the next year..
> different field I know, but I think still relevant as it proves the point that big company decisions are made well in advance. To bring this back into context, 6th edition was probably already in development when 5th edition was released and from the look I have of it, everythings pretty well finished production wise and this just looks like marketing strategy.. the release time frame was more likely than not decided on even before the start of the year and as the date draws closer, its time for GW to start moving pawns into place..
> seems kinda funny that a first post member drops this, wonder if the poster has an I.P. blocker to stop tracking shenanigans.. It definately feels like someone from marketing or closer to the point, someone close to someone in marketing who's liberated the info through one avenue or another..
> 
> This is just my interpretation..


I disagree. When it comes to codexes and rules, I think GWS waits til the last minute to do things. Sure they prepare the models way in advance, but I don't think they get up with the early birds when it comes to codices, which explains why there are so many rules issues.


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## DecrepitDragon

Eleven said:


> I disagree. When it comes to codexes and rules, I think GWS waits til the last minute to do things. Sure they prepare the models way in advance, but I don't think they get up with the early birds when it comes to codices, which explains why there are so many rules issues.


They dont wait. A codex or army book will have been under construction by a "team" of writers for months, then it needs to be play-tested to death.

With so many people involved, mis-communications between the members of the team likely lead to errors, and the need for a FAQ.

And I still doubt that they have anybody to proof-read any of their material after some of the shocking misprints we've seen.

When we see an end product we have no basis upon which to surmise how long it took to make.

Thats why the time-scales involved with the 6th ed release paper here, suggest its legitamacy, even without our trusty rumours team ( MCC et al ) corroborating.

Its also worth mentioning that if a company has a secretive code word for a project, why then letterhead the document? This paper seems exactly the sort of thing they would use.

The question I have is; is this a deliberate slip by GW, or an "honest" insider job?


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## troybuckle

Hmmmm Eldar in a box set could be intresting


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## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> I disagree. When it comes to codexes and rules, I think GWS waits til the last minute to do things. Sure they prepare the models way in advance, but I don't think they get up with the early birds when it comes to codices, which explains why there are so many rules issues.


I won't repeat what I've posted several times, in several different threads (including this one) about how the timelines for Codeces and Rulebooks in production go. My bit about the timeline for 6th Ed's release schedule is on Page 5 of this thread. I've gone into more detail elsewhere about the writing of it and other codeces.

Regading that BoLS quote: No, he doesn't cite a source. He claims his mate knows Phil Kelly. If indeed he does, then I don't think that 'mate' is ever going to get anything else out of Phil if the first thing he does is spill it on the internet. Name-dropping is not big and clever, it gets people fired. And to be honest, Phil is about the least likely person to ever give that kind of information away, even to a mate, and any decent friend wouldn't use his name like that. So I'm inclined to take said name-dropping as phishing for credibility and call BS on that one. 

Not saying the info might not be right, just BS on the source :wink:


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## Maverike Prime

Eleven said:


> I disagree. When it comes to codexes and rules, I think GWS waits til the last minute to do things. Sure they prepare the models way in advance, but I don't think they get up with the early birds when it comes to codices, which explains why there are so many rules issues.


When they were still holding Games Days in Baltimore I attended several of them. If you attend any of the discussion panels they hold the questions about Codex development invariably come up. Now, they've never actually come out and said "This is how we handle codex development" but this is the inference I have gotten out of several panels. 

Each codex development team is compartmentalized from the rest. Lets say they're doing Codex: Eldar. The development team works on that codex nearly to the exclusion of everything else. While some of them may be borrowed to play test another codex/army book but that would the limit of their involvement in that particular project. This is why we have codex creep. Instead of developing the codexes as a parts of a whole, they develop the codex as a whole on to themselves.


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## SilverTabby

Maverike Prime said:


> When they were still holding Games Days in Baltimore I attended several of them. If you attend any of the discussion panels they hold the questions about Codex development invariably come up. Now, they've never actually come out and said "This is how we handle codex development" but this is the inference I have gotten out of several panels.
> 
> Each codex development team is compartmentalized from the rest. Lets say they're doing Codex: Eldar. The development team works on that codex nearly to the exclusion of everything else. While some of them may be borrowed to play test another codex/army book but that would the limit of their involvement in that particular project. This is why we have codex creep. Instead of developing the codexes as a parts of a whole, they develop the codex as a whole on to themselves.


That is pretty much bang on. I don't know how big people think Games Dev is, but it's never hit double digits. Writing things well under pressure isn't an easy job, especially when you have to be hugely creative to nasty deadlines.


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## Maverike Prime

SilverTabby said:


> That is pretty much bang on. I don't know how big people think Games Dev is, but it's never hit double digits. Writing things well under pressure isn't an easy job, especially when you have to be hugely creative to nasty deadlines.


it does hit double digits if you count the number of people involved in play testing but to my understanding the effort of actually writing the book in question is handled by like 3-5 people with 5 being an unusually large commitment of resources for a single book.


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## SilverTabby

Maverike Prime said:


> it does hit double digits if you count the number of people involved in play testing but to my understanding the effort of actually writing the book in question is handled by like 3-5 people with 5 being an unusually large commitment of resources for a single book.


Games Dev as a department has never hit double digits during the past decade. 
Playtesting is mostly done within Games Dev, with others from departments like White Dwarf, 'Eavy Metal, Hobby, etc, helping. 
You will only hit 5 people contributing more than token assistance with the Core Rulebooks. Each Codex is written primarily by one person.


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## andygorn

SilverTabby said:


> Playtesting is mostly done within Games Dev, with others from departments like White Dwarf, 'Eavy Metal, Hobby, etc, helping.
> You will only hit 5 people contributing more than token assistance with the Core Rulebooks. Each Codex is written primarily by one person.


 
It also helps keep the numbers of 'official playtesters' down when you have the local GW gaming group who play in Bugman's/Warhammer World getting to try out all the new tasty rules in advance, too.

As long as that "one person" isn't always Mat "(allegedly) f'ing" Ward, GW Dev should be okay.

Just thought: 6th Ed...? Awww heck! I'd only just started trying to learn how to play 5th Ed (i.e. badly)!


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## SilverTabby

andygorn said:


> It also helps keep the numbers of 'official playtesters' down when you have the local GW gaming group who play in Bugman's/Warhammer World getting to try out all the new tasty rules in advance, too.


Who's trying to pull that one again? The new rules don't get out in advance. _Especially_ to public groups. The WHW groups got to playtest the RPG rules (said as one who got to do so). 

Not even the WHW staff get new rules until they turn up in sellable format.


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## MaidenManiac

Some more fuel for the fire.

Cred to Natfka for sum-up and all others where its due.



> Next year is going to be a good one. The primary release I think that we are all looking at are going to be 6th edition. Beyond that the codex schedule is rumored to be along the lines of......
> 
> 
> 1. Black Templar Q1
> 2. Tau Empire Q2
> 3. 6th Edition Q3
> 4. Chaos Legions Q3
> 5. Craftworld Eldar Q4
> 
> Now, that is a big plate for a single year. Personally I do not think its happening. Lets look at a few things being said...
> 
> via MajorWesJanson
> 
> From Harry and other rumor sources, I'm far more inclined to believe that we will see BT in March/April, Tau in May, 6th in July, new starter (Chaos vs someone, Eldar?) in August/September, and one more codex in Oct/nov, likely Chaos Marines/Legions. Eldar after that.
> 
> Now, lets get down to what Harry has said.
> 
> via Harry in response to Major WesJanson
> Don't know how you got all that from anything I said.
> I don't think Tau are coming anywhere near as soon as most people think.
> I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.
> 
> Now rumors have it that Vampire Counts will be released in January for Warhammer Fantasy, so lets just count January out for 40k. That does present March as a great candidate for the next codex release. But what is it going to be?
> 
> I am really thinking we have all these release rumors mixed up. I disagree with MajorWes Janson on his release predictions, not only because of what I have been told, but because I do not think the releases this coming year will be so packed full.
> 
> My prediction so far is that there will be three codex's this coming year along with the release of 6th edition. From my own sources I have heard that "Tau and Chaos Legions are sitting on the desk of proof readers", but that does not give me a time line. Other sources have said Tau have been ready for release for some time, but even Harry today thinks they are still off a bit.
> 
> If its too much for a single year, one has to go, so which 3 would it be for 2012? We have heard next to nothing on Black Templar, and they are rumored to be next. Even Tau rumors have been pretty thin so far. Chaos Legions rumors are starting to come forward, but that could be due to popularity. The earliest rumor I have seen placed Chaos Legions in the March/April slot. Eldar we are even less sure about, but their earliest release seems to be after 6th edition, sometime towards the end of next year.
> 
> I am trying to refine before the end of this year a 2012 timeline, but what is it going to be?


Fire up the flames folks, its freezing in Sweden...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Templar rumours may be thin on the ground, but, "they are there if you look for them"
as will the templars themselves be, soon enough


----------



## whiplash308

I certainly cannot wait for the second quarter of the year if this is true. I'll buy the starter set no problem since it's been said a lot that it'll be Chaos and Eldar in the starter set. And how convenient is it that I already play both armies? I've always wanted to play Templars too, but I really don't hope it suffers the same fate as the Blood Angels codex. Deep striking Land Raiders are not my favorite.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Bindi Baji said:


> Templar rumours may be thin on the ground, but, "they are there if you look for them"
> as will the templars themselves be, soon enough


Ill take that as a confirmation on the 1st bullet on that release plan in Feb/March :wink:

Sadly that also means that I will have to wait longer for anything worth buying


----------



## Uveron

Bindi Baji said:


> Templar rumours may be thin on the ground, but, "they are there if you look for them"
> as will the templars themselves be, soon enough


I kinda 1/2 expect a WD codex or a PDF on the website for the Templar's, bringing the units in-line with the current SM codex's and fixing the rules so they work better with the changes they will be makeing to the system for 6th edd. 

This smaller update could be done at the same time as Vampire Counts, hence how they can fit all the stuff in one year


----------



## SilverTabby

Don't forget, next year will also have at least one month, if not two dedicated to the Hobbit release...


----------



## Uveron

SilverTabby said:


> Don't forget, next year will also have at least one month, if not two dedicated to the Hobbit release...


Hmm.. thats a good point, it will be right on the heels of 6th edd as they both will be summer things (hobbit the movie been a summer "blockbuster")


----------



## Eviltim

I wonder how much of LoTR/WotR is going to get boosted via The Hobbit?

On the topic of "Starter Box" for 6th, It'll be "Space Marines Vs X"

I'd stake my life upon that,

- Marines make up the largest Percent of Sales (Including 40k/WHFB/LoTR)
- Its A Starter/Introduction box, Not necessarily for changing from 5th to 6th, but for NEW PEOPLE, Marines will always get a push for beginners as they can be a simple army to start with*

Just my 2pence.

*NB. This is ment with NO discredit to marine players, I know you tend to get the brunt of it for army choices, I simply mean that for someone who _Has never played a Tabletop Wargame_, let alone WH40k, they are a good Middle of the Road army, which can later be developed into a specific force depending on your play style (i.e. Prefer assualt, Prefer sitting back and firing/Firebases etc).


----------



## whiplash308

Your statement is very true, and myself personally don't see why it wouldn't be a Loyalist army of any kind in the stater set, but there has been a lot of stuff in the last couple months about it NOT being a Loyalist army. Maybe GW wants players to start playing Chaos or Eldar, for example. Perhaps the storyline advanced so much that this edition could be focused around any of them? Who knows.


----------



## GoRy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially SM are probably the most played army - certainly from gaming clubs i've attended and product focus. Maybe they want people to buy other armies? 

I'm not insulting non-SM players here, I mainly play Eldar  Just started picking up an SM army


----------



## bitsandkits

Uveron said:


> Hmm.. thats a good point, it will be right on the heels of 6th edd as they both will be summer things (hobbit the movie been a summer "blockbuster")


the hobbit will be a Christmas blockbuster just like its 3 predecessors and im fairly confident that GW will release its stuff to cash in on that fact too.

summer next year is 40k


----------



## MaidenManiac

bitsandkits said:


> the hobbit will be a Christmas blockbuster just like its 3 predecessors and im fairly confident that GW will release its stuff to cash in on that fact too.
> 
> summer next year is 40k


Sounds very likely yea.

It worked with the past 3 movies, dont change a winning concept


----------



## TheReverend

Most of what I heard in Nottingham this weekend (from a very reliable source) has been said here already but I'll just list it:

6th ed in July (the internet leak was for real so there goes my reputation, which I staked on them being a fake...:headbutt
40k box set in September, Chaos Space Marine vs ? 
Chaos Space Marines codex in November. 

Clues to Tau and Black Templar codex changes are in the FAQ's that were also leaked. 

Still no word on Thunder Wolves though  boo hoo :cray:


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

TheReverend said:


> Most of what I heard in Nottingham this weekend (from a very reliable source) has been said here already but I'll just list it:
> 
> 6th ed in July (the internet leak was for real so there goes my reputation, which I staked on them being a fake...:headbutt
> 40k box set in September, Chaos Space Marine vs ?
> Chaos Space Marines codex in November.
> 
> Clues to Tau and Black Templar codex changes are in the FAQ's that were also leaked.
> 
> Still no word on Thunder Wolves though  boo hoo :cray:


Chapterhouse kinda fucked up alot of things with those models didn't it?


----------



## Doelago

TheReverend said:


> 40k box set in September, Chaos Space Marine vs ?


Black Templars. *crosses fingers*


----------



## koby

I can't see Chaos Legions being released after 6th if they're in the starter set, unless they want people to buy the starter then buy a codex and then say 'oh yeh, scrap that here is the new one buy this too' (which does sound abit GW)

I can't see any reason for the leak to be a fake, its to the point and reads very believable. On the note of TV adverts, i'm in the B+K's camp and say it will be in line with online TV, especially with how popular the GW blog and flikr pool are...


----------



## Marneus Calgar

That 6th ed is real? 

Well, looks like I'm gonna be playing even less...


----------



## mcmuffin

koby said:


> I can't see Chaos Legions being released after 6th if they're in the starter set, unless they want people to buy the starter then buy a codex and then say 'oh yeh, scrap that here is the new one buy this too' (which does sound abit GW)


Assault on black reach comes to mind. SM starter kit, 2 months later "oh here is a new SM codex"


----------



## bitsandkits

Marneus Calgar said:


> That 6th ed is real?
> 
> Well, looks like I'm gonna be playing even less...


Just play more,problem solved


----------



## SilverTabby

The rules leak and the release dates leak are two seperate things. Which one is being claimed "true"?

And I really wouldn't believe it when people say "very reliable source" in relation to having been in nottingham, because the only truly reliable ones this far ahead are the writers and studio staff, and they aren't talking. Really, they aren't.


----------



## Svartmetall

What *SilverTabby* said, basically.

By and large it works like this: *those who know don't tell, and those who tell don't know*.


----------



## bitsandkits

Svartmetall said:


> What *SilverTabby* said, basically.
> 
> By and large it works like this: *those who know don't tell, and those who tell don't know*.


I happen to know someone who doesnt know but also doesnt tell


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

bitsandkits said:


> I happen to know someone who doesnt know but also doesnt tell


Quiet you, it's pithy.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Svartmetall said:


> What *SilverTabby* said, basically.
> 
> By and large it works like this: *those who know don't tell, and those who tell don't know*.


Except you forgot to mention that those who also know always deny these sorts of rumours.

That "leaked" rulebook clearly came from a guy with a lot of spare time on his hands. Let me put it that way.


----------



## Uveron

Simply put. 

If the "Leaked" Document was 'Real', it will not look like the Real 6th ed we see in shops, even if that was the plan. It would do GW ALOT of harm if it came out that they could leak something like that, Just imagin the strain it would cause with New Line (LotR).


----------



## ShadowTear

If it is the 'real' rules set.

It would seem they're getting some free play testing out of it if nothing else. 
Even this far out it would seem they can gauge community response and adjust things accordingly all while denying the nature of the leak. I don't really give GW that much credit, but it is something that at least sounds plausible in my head.


----------



## Uveron

ShadowTear said:


> If it is the 'real' rules set.
> 
> It would seem they're getting some free play testing out of it if nothing else.
> Even this far out it would seem they can gauge community response and adjust things accordingly all while denying the nature of the leak. I don't really give GW that much credit, but it is something that at least sounds plausible in my head.


The problem with that, is that without IP protection on it it gets complex fast. And the question investors and other business partners have will be the question "if this can get out what more could be leaked" and well that spells doom for most company's these days. 

Fans and the community does matter to GW, not compared to investor relations.


----------



## Marneus Calgar

Stephen_Newman said:


> Except you forgot to mention that those who also know always deny these sorts of rumours.
> 
> That "leaked" rulebook clearly came from a guy with a lot of spare time on his hands. Let me put it that way.


But you don't know that for definite. I've just put a post on my blog about this, I'm sitting on the fence with this. Purely because the amount of time it would take to make this book, and on the flip side someone would be mad enough to do it, simply because they've had 4 years to do it in. But you can't deny that it has be done so meticulously and that they've even gone to the trouble of releasing Codex FAQ's?


----------



## docgeo

Okay so what do most people think....are they the real unreleased 6th ed rules?????????

Doc


----------



## mcmuffin

Early playtest version, probably the version that was rumoured to have been scrapped for being too divergent from traditional 40k.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

*sigh* I hope that 6th ed is similar to what we saw, mixing all of the various derivatives to the game into one book, stratagems in basic games, torrents of fire, Chaos Legion and separate Renegade codexes, tiered special rules, focus on independent characters and heroes, more strategy and less random, bidding points for first turn... *forlorn sigh*


----------



## Sworn Radical

mcmuffin said:


> ... too divergent from traditional 40k.


:laugh: Sure ...

Okay, play-test version leak or not aside (since I don't believe the leaked doc was for real) ... what exactly do you think _'traditional 40k'_ is ? 
Actually, for me that'd be Rogue Trader, 2nd ed. for others, 4th for some ... etc.
I think you see where I'm coming from. With this game and its rules set who have changed so much (and drastically) during the last 25 years, there simply is no such thing as _'traditional 40k'_, and it's really hard to make out where it's gonna go with 6th. Of course, late 5th ed. codecii might be pointers, but we wouldn't know for sure 'til we saw the true 6th ed. rulebook.


----------



## darklove

Is there a round-up of all the 6th ed. rumours somewhere? I can't find it.


----------



## SilverTabby

OK, let me put it another way.

If this was a real leak of the real rules, several things would have happened by now. The main thing being every single incidence of it being posted, all links to it and all mention of it would have been stomped on from a great height. Because folks, if these were the real rules coming out 6 months in advance, then should someone choose to slap them together in a book and release them under a different name (Chapterhouse style) then GW would not be able to do its big summer release.

And GW would not let that happen. So these are not the real rules.


----------



## bitsandkits

if GW did that silver they would have confirmed they are real, which would then mean every 40k fan on the planet would be downloading and exchanging the rules.


----------



## Katie Drake

bitsandkits said:


> if GW did that silver they would have confirmed they are real, which would then mean every 40k fan on the planet would be downloading and exchanging the rules.


I seriously doubt that's how GW handles things - they ignored the "leaked" Blood Angel Codex that came out over two months in advance before the real BA Codex the same way they're ignoring this.

The rules are pretty clearly fake. It's a clever fake and whoever did it undoubtedly put a lot of time into it and did a fairly good job, but there are a lot of really large red flags that just don't make any sense to come from GW. Whoever wrote the rules has got to be absolutely tickled pink that their ideas have gotten so much attention from the community. I wonder if we won't see someone step forward and claim responsibility like Linksys did with the fake BA 'Dex.


----------



## bitsandkits

Katie Drake said:


> I seriously doubt that's how GW handles things - they ignored the "leaked" Blood Angel Codex that came out over two months in advance before the real BA Codex the same way they're ignoring this.
> 
> The rules are pretty clearly fake. It's a clever fake and whoever did it undoubtedly put a lot of time into it and did a fairly good job, but there are a lot of really large red flags that just don't make any sense to come from GW. Whoever wrote the rules has got to be absolutely tickled pink that their ideas have gotten so much attention from the community. I wonder if we won't see someone step forward and claim responsibility like Linksys did with the fake BA 'Dex.


so what red flags are making it stad out as fake? because as many have said there is plenty of ticks in the genuine play test column including former play testers confirming the format as genuine GW for this type of document for example


----------



## Katie Drake

bitsandkits said:


> so what red flags are making it stad out as fake? because as many have said there is plenty of ticks in the genuine play test column including former play testers confirming the format as genuine GW for this type of document for example


There's too many for me to go through without the document in front of me but from memory:

- Wording isn't consistent with GW's style anywhere except where things have been lifted word for word from past rulebooks.

- The game has been made significantly more complex instead of streamlined and easier to understand for GW's large younger audience.

- Rules for Super Heavies and stuff in a main rulebook makes no sense.

- There are no completely retarded rules which pretty much rules out GW having anything to do with this.

- It's pretty weird that almost every rumor about 6th edition seems to be included in some form in this supposed leak. How can rumors over a year old about a GW rule set be so scarily accurate?

I think what happened is that someone that wanted attention or something went through a bunch of 6th edition rumor roundups on various sites and spent a while compiling everything. Then they took people's wishlist ideas for the new rule set and then over what was probably a significant period of time started to hammer it all into shape. This is why so many people are completely over the moon with the rules - they're everything that people expected from rumors plus what people asked for from wish listing! If GW actually operated in this way they'd have an even larger base of loyal fans and customers, but as anyone can tell you GW tends to do what they think is best with their rules despite their legions of fans screaming the opposite.


----------



## bitsandkits

and what makes you think its not fake? there must be elements in the book that make you think its genuine


----------



## Khargoth

I gotta say, I'm almost convinced it's fake on the argument that "It's exactly what people want"


----------



## nevynxxx

ShadowTear said:


> Even this far out it would seem they can gauge community response and adjust things accordingly all while denying the nature of the leak. I don't really give GW that much credit, but it is something that at least sounds plausible in my head.


From what a US print company who's staff are *very* forward on this sort of thing say, printing in China, they need to have completed the book 4-5 months before release for it to actually get to printer, get test copies made, get back, check, make changes, get printed, ship back to US, ship into distribution, ship to stores.

GW skip the distribution step, but probably take longer to ship the product to the UK, so I'd guess they are close to a deadline, and the books will be being layed out around now for a July release....

Assuming they are printed in China......


----------



## darklove

nevynxxx said:


> From what a US print company who's staff are *very* forward on this sort of thing say, printing in China, they need to have completed the book 4-5 months before release for it to actually get to printer, get test copies made, get back, check, make changes, get printed, ship back to US, ship into distribution, ship to stores.
> 
> GW skip the distribution step, but probably take longer to ship the product to the UK, so I'd guess they are close to a deadline, and the books will be being layed out around now for a July release....
> 
> Assuming they are printed in China......


It does not take that long to get things made in China at the proofing stage. I've had production prototypes and test printings back and sorted within 3 weeks. It just depends on how much money you have.


----------



## SilverTabby

Oh, the whole project was finished months ago and they're now into white dwarf writing stages. So wishlisting that was put up in the last month or so that made it into this "ruleset" is another notch on the "fake" stick. 

And don't underestimate the lengths they will go to to protect 40k. The BA codex was a WD release. Nothing like the system that makes them 40% or so of *all* their money. If this was a legit ruleset that had been leaked, all the forums would currently be "down for maintenance" and any torrents of it would be being removed. Doesn't matter that those who already have it would circulate it, the lawyers would be doing everything they could to publically suppress it. If they didn't, it would happen again cos folk think they could get away with it. It would also scare off anyone who thought to bring it out before they did, under a different name.

Simply ignoring it would be too dangerous if it was legit.


----------



## nevynxxx

darklove said:


> It does not take that long to get things made in China at the proofing stage. I've had production prototypes and test printings back and sorted within 3 weeks. It just depends on how much money you have.


Yeah, but from those production prototypes in your hand, to the volume of finished goods GW need to have, and to be redistributed to all stores? 

I may have been a little unclear, but I meant full production cycle to goods being on display in shops, not just to having the copies staff get to keep


----------



## Katie Drake

bitsandkits said:


> and what makes you think its not fake? there must be elements in the book that make you think its genuine


The things that seem legit to me are some of the simple changes that make the game more intuitive like close combat weapons using the AP system instead of a binary allow armor saves or don't sort of style. Fixing wound allocation which is widely considered to be overly complex and slow also makes sense, though the way it was fixed (and the horrific wording on the new wound allocation rules) doesn't seem very GW to me.

The thing is if one person is able to say to themselves "It's weird that close combat weapons don't use the same AP system as shooting ones" then it'd be extremely easy for the writer of this fake rulebook to have the same thought and incorporate it.

All in all, evidence and my personal gut feeling tells me that this isn't real. Which is sort of too bad as there are a great deal of positive things about it, but... thems the breaks.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

Mayhaps the leak was an intentional spill? GW puts out info about the current test ruleset to see the reaction of the community, gauges it and then incorporates popular ideas into the next set?

I'm just throwing possibilities around.


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> If this was a legit ruleset that had been leaked, all the forums would currently be "down for maintenance" and any torrents of it would be being removed. Doesn't matter that those who already have it would circulate it, the lawyers would be doing everything they could to publically suppress it.


haha, you're out of your mind. The entire combined power of the entertainment industry can't stop torrenting or filesharing and you think a pettily look company like games-workshop is going to take down the internet now?

Everyone knows on the internet, once it's out, it's out.


----------



## Eleven

darklove said:


> It does not take that long to get things made in China at the proofing stage. I've had production prototypes and test printings back and sorted within 3 weeks. It just depends on how much money you have.


I never really looked into it, but I thought that GWS made all their products right at home in the UK?


----------



## GrizBe

Eleven said:


> I never really looked into it, but I thought that GWS made all their products right at home in the UK?


They used to, but then they outsourced them abroad as it was cheaper.... now though they're in the process of moving everything back to Nottingham as its easier for quality control, and they don't have the same problems.... 

Anyone remember how when the Nid codex came out, the printers made thousands of copies of the old codex that had to be pulped, rather then printing the new one for stockpiling like they were meant to? They're moving stuff back here again to stop things like that.... And, all teh current WD leaks have come from the printers too.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Mayhaps the leak was an intentional spill? GW puts out info about the current test ruleset to see the reaction of the community, gauges it and then incorporates popular ideas into the next set?
> 
> I'm just throwing possibilities around.


I would agree with you save for that fact that they have not seemed to give 2 shits aboot what anyone says about any of their products. Go on the website, as far as they be concerned, their shit don't stink. 

But wouldn't it be nice if they did listen......:laugh:....wtf am I thinking.


----------



## MidnightSun

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/06/6th-edition-awesomeness.html

I don't honestly agree with the PP-bashing, and he does come on quite strong, but I think that he makes pertinent points.

Midnight


----------



## Katie Drake

Oh VT2, when will you learn?


----------



## SilverTabby

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Mayhaps the leak was an intentional spill? GW puts out info about the current test ruleset to see the reaction of the community, gauges it and then incorporates popular ideas into the next set?
> 
> I'm just throwing possibilities around.


That could be an idea, if 40k wasn't written and finished. I'm not joking when I say it was done and dusted by christmas. 6 months prior to that they'd've been on final draft, going through pre-production. Anything that was even vaguely a "test draft" would be at least a year old now, maybe more. Which begs the question - why wait this long to show it if it's real? The only point at which they could have acquired it was over a year ago, so why wait...?


----------



## Bogg

i believe this is true, its too much info and text, to be some troll locked up in his mommas basement!

I welcome theese changes as thez seem to bring more flavour to the game

oh and that codex updates also strengthens my view


----------



## infernalcaretaker

I have been told by a friend, who has a contact in a playtest group, that they are NOT legit, however there are changes which have some similarities in 6th...

Just what i have been told, take it as you will...

*slopes off into the darkness to await a release date...*


----------



## GrizBe

I'm starting to think that while the leak IS a fake, its been made by someone with a conection to a playtest group. Snooping about online theres been a few too many denials interspaced with things that logically make sense and mentions of 'x rule is in line with Y rumour I've heard'.

I'd be rather surprised if we don't see some of the changes mentioned in the leak in the real release.


----------



## SilverTabby

Of that I have no doubt, as some of them are the logical progression of the rules. Which ones though are pot luck. You put enough monkeys behind typewriters, one will come up with Shakespeare, as the saying goes.

Still, whoever wrote this has their wish. Everyone is talking about it. Bask in your anonymous and pointless internet glory, invisible person with too much time and no real friends to give you the attention you so desperately crave.


----------



## ZARDRA

i siad it before and i'll say it again. it will be bigger, bader, and way more interesting than any one thinks!
i still hold true to my predictions that 2 primarks will return, along with a host of new and very cool model, thunderhawk any one!!! just hold onto your pantys and wait and see. it WILL change every thing.


----------



## TheKingElessar

ZARDRA said:


> i siad it before and i'll say it again. it will be bigger, bader, and way more interesting than any one thinks!
> i still hold true to my predictions that 2 primarks will return, along with a host of new and very cool model, thunderhawk any one!!! just hold onto your pantys and wait and see. it WILL change every thing.


Right - except, if they aren't in a Codex, they don't really have any bearing on the tabletop. And if Primarchs return in-game, then they'd be too stupidly good for there to be any reason to play any other army.

When you have 16 Codexes (if we still count SoBs) to generate sales for, super-super-superhumans for two is a Very Bad Plan.


----------



## mcmuffin

That said, if Russ returned in the fluff i would jizz my pants.


----------



## SavageConvoy

Yeah, if 2 Primarchs were brought back I think it would mess everything up beyond reason. Remember how much damage Draigo did in the fluff? Remember how much damage Mephiston and Abbaddon can do on the table? I can't even think of all the ways Primarchs would mess up the setting for everything that isn't their Chapter.

Besides, I think GW is more about adding "Instant Save/Kill the Universe" buttons than actually bringing them into use. Like when Necrons got the SC who happens to collect frozen Primarchs for the lols.


----------



## TheKingElessar

If Russ returned in the fluff - I'd have myself a nerdgasm too.


----------



## TheReverend

Well if there is a Primarch coming it won't be Russ (unfortunately) as the SW codex is here, but think about it, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Black Templars and Codex Space Marines, as well as Codex Chaos Space Marines will all make an appearance, giving you at least 4 opportunities to introduce a Primarch, loyal or otherwise...


----------



## MidnightSun

Bah, they won't bring back Primarchs unless they buff xenos/Chaos characters (i.e. instead of the Swarmlord being able to beat up Calgar it could have a fair fight with Guilliman, and Abaddon being able to take on any Chapter Master ever whilst being able to give a Primarch a run for their money), or introduce the Daemon Primarchs or the original Daemon Princes/Daemon Lords.

Midnight


----------



## slaaneshy

Really can't see Primarchs being playable characters, if true to the fluff, they would seriously unbalance the game.

Scenerio 1:

Space Wolf Player: - Look, Russ is here!
Tau Player: - I'm off to find the Greater Good Elsewhere!

Etc....


----------



## normtheunsavoury

The return of a Primarch would require and story line progression, hasn't happened before I see no reason for it to happen now.


----------



## docgeo

slaaneshy said:


> Scenerio 1:
> 
> Space Wolf Player: - Look, Russ is here!
> Tau Player: - I'm off to find the Greater Good Elsewhere!
> 
> Etc....


:laugh:

The only way, other than in the fluff...please..please, would be in an Apocolypase game.

Doc


----------



## TheKingElessar

Even then doc - they'd need to be able to take on a Titan...they'd be ludicrous.

@Norm - they DID advance it for 5e, quite a bit actually.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

TheKingElessar said:


> Even then doc - they'd need to be able to take on a Titan...they'd be ludicrous.
> 
> @Norm - they DID advance it for 5e, quite a bit actually.


They did an interview with the writers of 5th on the site when it came out explaining that it wasn't an advancement of the story just a clarification of the situation as it was at the end of the millennium. They claimed that the two minutes to midnight feel and theme had been neglected in previous editions and that they wanted to bring that feeling back.


----------



## gannam

silly question but what happened to the Ultramarine Primarch? I don't believe they have covered that in the Horus heresy books. wondering if anyone knew from fluff wise. Guilleman would certainly be the one I want to see the most.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Guilleman is in stasis on Macragge, throat slit, though I forget who by. Either Fulgrim or Perturabo I think?

@norm - fair enough, but advancing it would kinda take away from that then, no?


----------



## Baron Spikey

TheKingElessar said:


> Guilleman is in stasis on Macragge, throat slit, though I forget who by. Either Fulgrim or Perturabo I think?
> 
> @norm - fair enough, but advancing it would kinda take away from that then, no?


Fulgrim, a century after the Scouring.


----------



## Falkenhyn

It was Fulgrim with some poison talon thingy.
Some say that the wound on his throat is healing ever so slowly, 

But there’s no proof of that just speculation.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

MidnightSun said:


> Bah, they won't bring back Primarchs unless they buff xenos/Chaos characters (i.e. instead of the Swarmlord being able to beat up Calgar it could have a fair fight with Guilliman, and Abaddon being able to take on any Chapter Master ever whilst being able to give a Primarch a run for their money), or introduce the Daemon Primarchs or the original Daemon Princes/Daemon Lords.
> 
> Midnight


Welp, considering the hive mind is constantly evolving, the daemon primarchs are still around, and considering that he is the chosen of Chaos, and none mightier, daemon primarchs and powerful daemons aside, Abbadon CAN give them a run for their money.


----------



## XT-1984

Angron (a Daemon Prince Primarch) had rules and they aren't actually as good as you would think.


----------



## Djinn24

The biggest thing that makes me think fake isn't really how it is written or anything, but the fact that GW is combining books into one single book? That does not fit their marketing at all. I for one hope it is real in a sense but I have some major doubts.



> http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/06/6th...esomeness.html
> 
> I don't honestly agree with the PP-bashing, and he does come on quite strong, but I think that he makes pertinent points.
> 
> Midnight


ug that guy is a flipping tool.


----------



## LordOfAbsolution

well with the Primarchs, most of the loyal ones are dead, wounded or missing (probably K.I.A sad fully, even though if Draigo can survive the warp I'm sure the Primarchs can) and as for the Daemon Primarch, they generally stick to their own worlds, but fluff-wise the likes of Angron have ranged massive wars against the Imperium before getting his arse kicked (even though as a Daemon Primarch they're meant to be even more powerful than before...)


----------



## TheReverend

I just wanna point out that Ragnar Blackmane has also taken on a Daemon Primarch and won. So it's not just Abaddon that can do it


----------



## TheKingElessar

LordOfAbsolution said:


> well with the Primarchs, most of the loyal ones are dead, wounded or missing (probably K.I.A sad fully, even though if Draigo can survive the warp I'm sure the Primarchs can) and as for the Daemon Primarch, they generally stick to their own worlds, but fluff-wise the likes of Angron have ranged massive wars against the Imperium before getting his arse kicked (even though as a Daemon Primarch they're meant to be even more powerful than before...)


Well, it did take an entire Company of GKs to defeat Angron, to be fair...


----------



## normtheunsavoury

TheKingElessar said:


> @norm - fair enough, but advancing it would kinda take away from that then, no?


That's what I was saying (I think?). 

GW has never advanced the story and hopefully never will, bringing the primarchs back would be a bad idea.


----------



## Scythes

TheReverend said:


> I just wanna point out that Ragnar Blackmane has also taken on a Daemon Primarch and won. So it's not just Abaddon that can do it


He didn't really take on Magnus, he threw the Spear of Russ through a tear in the warp and into his eye while Magnus wasn't at full power yet. It's not like he went toe to toe with him.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Scythes said:


> He didn't really take on Magnus, he threw the Spear of Russ through a tear in the warp and into his eye while Magnus wasn't at full power yet. It's not like he went toe to toe with him.


Yeah...between that, and the older tale of a previous Great Wolf (I forget his name) going toe-to-toe with Magnus on the peak of the Fang, I marvel at the ignorant slamming Draigo's fluff as though it were somehow a departure from GW's norm...


----------



## mcmuffin

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah...between that, and the older tale of a previous Great Wolf (I forget his name) going toe-to-toe with Magnus on the peak of the Fang, I marvel at the ignorant slamming Draigo's fluff as though it were somehow a departure from GW's norm...


K, time to come in and do some wolf defending here. 

Harek Ironhelm only managed to intervene in the fight after Magnus and Bjorn the Fell Handed had been battling on the peak of the fang, knocking them both off. Magnus had expended most of his energy at this point and was unable to sustain material form, considering he had blasted the entire fenrisian astropathic choir into oblivion beforehand. As magnus struggled to maintain physical form, Ironhelm charged, but magnus still kicked the shit out of him and killed him 


This is not the same as Draigo strolling into the place where the Daemons are most powerful and slapping Mortarion around the place.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I dunno your source for that level of detail, I don't remember it from the original story...and Bjorn fighting a Primarch is equally unlikely.

Don't get me wrong, I love Wolves, Bjorn was my first favourite special character, Wolves in 2e were my first Codex - I'm practically a fanboi when it comes to the Sons of Russ. I was incensed at the mere suggestion that a Space Wolf would even contemplate going Renegade the first time I saw a Red Corsair from the scions of Fenris, and that story about that cruiser still annoys me.

Point is, Draigo isn't as OTT as most make out - especially since Mortarion, as the Lord of Decay, will often be the weakest of the Primarchs.

The mere existence of the Sanguinor is at least as silly as a Grey Knight Grand Master being pure enough to reside in the Warp but not be corrupted. After all, the Warp itself is not 'evil'.


----------



## gen.ahab

@TKE,
That old story just got a rather large new book. I would suggest you go pick up _Battle of the Fang_. If you enjoy SW you will probably like this book.

And yes, Bjorn did in fact fight Magnus..... I believe he ripped his face off at one point, though I could be VERY wrong on that.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I might pick it up, but the problem with a lot of BL fiction is that it's crap.

HH, Dan Abnett, Graham MacNeill, Gav Thorpe, all readable. And Bill King ofc. The rest of it, that I've tried, anyway, awful. Nick Kyme should be put down for Crimes Against Fiction.


----------



## SavageConvoy

I want to read that book now in the hopes to see the line "Got your nose"


----------



## koby

Draigo's was pretty ludicrous though...he just chums about whilst all the deamons don't dare come near him because he'll backhand their ass. Considering the amount of greater deamons in that place surely a few of them would of got together one night and said 'tommorrow....shall we just go and fuck draigo up? All of us like...'


----------



## TheKingElessar

Daemons thrive on conflict, why would they WANT him dead?


----------



## LukeValantine

Here a much more rational explanation for draigo's seeming invincibility. He is dead, and has been fro a long time, without knowing it he became a lesser warp entity that represents purity. Hence his victories are caused by him representing the idea of said purity hence Chaos daemons can't defeat him, because by his very properties none of the chaos gods can hurt him because they have no influence on him. 

Makes a hell lot more sense then a mortal flying around the warp kicking nonsensical levels of ass, a feet which neither the best of the best of the eldar or humanity ever dreamed about up till the GK book.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Maybe he's just a direct relative of the Sigillite?


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

There is the other theory.

Draigo is protected by the Dark Gods.

Hear me out first because this is an interesting one.

Draigo is basically engaged in a pointless war, one he cannot win, he will fight, and fight and win every battle, but for every daemon he cuts down in the warp, it shall rise again, unaffected, and ready to return to battle almost immediately.

Though he doesn't know it now, Draigo cannot win the war in the Warp, eventually he will learn this, and on that day, Draigo will despair, he will finally know how hopeless the fight against the Dark Gods is.

Kaldor Draigo shall be the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos. The Dark Gods know this, and are pleased, for the day will come when the great Draigo will lose all hope, and in so doing, pledge service to the powers of Chaos.


----------



## Eleven

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> There is the other theory.
> 
> Draigo is protected by the Dark Gods.
> 
> Hear me out first because this is an interesting one.
> 
> Draigo is basically engaged in a pointless war, one he cannot win, he will fight, and fight and win every battle, but for every daemon he cuts down in the warp, it shall rise again, unaffected, and ready to return to battle almost immediately.
> 
> Though he doesn't know it now, Draigo cannot win the war in the Warp, eventually he will learn this, and on that day, Draigo will despair, he will finally know how hopeless the fight against the Dark Gods is.
> 
> Kaldor Draigo shall be the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos. The Dark Gods know this, and are pleased, for the day will come when the great Draigo will lose all hope, and in so doing, pledge service to the powers of Chaos.


that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't see gws doing that. GWS likes to write chaos as being bumbling fuck ups that always screw up their advantages and make critical mistakes and lose in the end.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

And what's one of the preveailing rumors about 6th ed? Chaos is the big bad again (Necron codex is set up for it, they're less of a threat than Chaos now)


----------



## TheKingElessar

I like that theory, it's nice and dark. 

However, what are you talking about Necrons are LESS of a threat?? I hardly think that having thousands of Tomb Worlds, and almost limitless legions of Necrontyr is less dangerous than the scattered forces from before.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't see gws doing that. GWS likes to write chaos as being bumbling fuck ups that always screw up their advantages and make critical mistakes and lose in the end.


There's a very good reason for that. No matter how grim/dark the universe, it's still a game played by kids. 

There's a fine line between "evil is ok in a game" and "evil is ok".


----------



## Malgron

Eleven said:


> that's a pretty cool idea, but I don't see gws doing that. GWS likes to write chaos as being bumbling fuck ups that always screw up their advantages and make critical mistakes and lose in the end.


Haha I like it!

Codex: Bumble-Fucks

At the end of every game involving a Bumble-Fuck army, roll a die. If the result is a number the Bumble-Fuck army automatically loses.


----------



## Ravner298

> That said, if Russ returned in the fluff i would jizz my pants.


Over Magnus's dead body



> There is the other theory.
> 
> Draigo is protected by the Dark Gods.
> 
> Hear me out first because this is an interesting one.
> 
> Draigo is basically engaged in a pointless war, one he cannot win, he will fight, and fight and win every battle, but for every daemon he cuts down in the warp, it shall rise again, unaffected, and ready to return to battle almost immediately.
> 
> Though he doesn't know it now, Draigo cannot win the war in the Warp, eventually he will learn this, and on that day, Draigo will despair, he will finally know how hopeless the fight against the Dark Gods is.
> 
> Kaldor Draigo shall be the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos. The Dark Gods know this, and are pleased, for the day will come when the great Draigo will lose all hope, and in so doing, pledge service to the powers of Chaos.


This is always what I interpreted it as. He is a plaything of the chaos gods. Everything he does in the warp is undone daily, he is locked in a never ending quest where one day he will realize how futile it all is and succumb.

As far as the primarchs returning, if GW has a single collective brain in their entire corporation they would know how bad of an idea that is. So what im trying to say is I cant wait to see their stats and rules.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> There's a very good reason for that. No matter how grim/dark the universe, it's still a game played by kids.
> 
> There's a fine line between "evil is ok in a game" and "evil is ok".


Yeah, for the Daily Mail!  ...Sadly, that's what really matters.


----------



## Achaylus72

The rumour i am hearing is consistant with that in 6th Edition that Tau and Eldar will officially be considered the good guys, allied with Space Marines and Imperial Guard.

While Chaos will be the centre of all things evil, what i have been told that Chaos will be given some impressive hard arse fluff to take on the Space Marines, and that the forces of Chaos will be more united and not just some sorry arsed band of pirates.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I hope not. Mon-Keigh are no more the Eldar's allies than the butcher's knife is his ally...


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

Watch it there Elf-stone, the butcher's knife can still kill him with cuts


----------



## TheKingElessar

You are but a tool to be used, and discarded when blunt.


----------



## SilverTabby

The Imperium have never been the good guys, only the less evil ones...


----------



## GrizBe

The entire point of 'grim-dark' is that no-one was 'The good guys' and that everything was shades of grey.


----------



## Adramalech

GrizBe said:


> The entire point of 'grim-dark' is that no-one was 'The good guys' and that everything was shades of grey.


GREY KNIGHTS ACAUSE EVERYTHINGS A SHADE OF GREY AHURR


----------



## XT-1984

You mean to say that the 'leaked rules', that someone probably spent weeks and weeks writing, put them up on the internet for 4 hours and took them down again are fake?

Personally, I think after the backlash of WHFB 8th edition GW have released this to get a rough idea of what the online community thinks of some of these changes.

Most of the posters online who think its fake follow that statement up with 'but I havn't read a word of it yet' (or something to that effect).


----------



## TheKingElessar

Hardly, GW doesn't give two shits about the online community's opinion.


----------



## bitsandkits

TheKingElessar said:


> Hardly, GW doesn't give two shits about the online community's opinion.


and why should they, all we do is bitch and moan about them,they couldnt satisfy the online community if they had a sack of crystal balls and and the entire workforce of China at there disposal.


----------



## SilverTabby

Why release them to guage reaction when the book is written and finished? Seriously, it was done before christmas. They wouldn't release something like this, as it's physically impossible to make big changes now. The best they can do is alter typoes...


----------



## TheKingElessar

bitsandkits said:


> and why should they, all we do is bitch and moan about them,they couldnt satisfy the online community if they had a sack of crystal balls and and the entire workforce of China at there disposal.


Hah, exactly! Now, if they ignored FAAC players, and only listened to competitive ones, they actually could satisfy a majority, since better game balance satisfies everyone. But why break the habit of a lifetime? Anyway, Whineseer shouts loudest...



SilverTabby said:


> Why release them to guage reaction when the book is written and finished? Seriously, it was done before christmas. They wouldn't release something like this, as it's physically impossible to make big changes now. The best they can do is alter typoes...


Exactly, it'd actually be a pretty foolish move. Hard to convince shareholders you're not spunking money down the drain if you preview rules changes to this degree of revulsion and outright hatred.

As for typos, they could do a LOT better in that regard...


----------



## mcmuffin

bitsandkits said:


> and why should they, all we do is bitch and moan about them,they couldnt satisfy the online community if they had a sack of crystal balls and and the entire workforce of China at there disposal.


So, they would have a . . . . crystal ballsack? Nice


----------



## boreas

TheKingElessar said:


> Hardly, GW doesn't give two shits about the online community's opinion.


That's actually sad, because GW could channel a LOT a good things from the community. FAQs alone could be written in matters of weeks if GW used one guy to browse the forums. GW could let the forums know they are watching, then pick up all the numerous rule problems that forums dig up like rabbid moles, then use the most sensible answers that the rule lawyers in the universe debate about for pages, put it in PDF and publish it.

But that would be listening to it's customers and using the web in a modern way. That's pretty hard for a company with a 1990 mindset like GW.

Phil


----------



## bitsandkits

GW dont need forums like ours, if anything it would benefit them greatly if we didnt exist, its because of places such as internet forums that has eroded a portion of there business by promoting other systems or manufactures of "generic" models or in some cases blatant rip off models that can be used in there games while at the same time giving the vocal GW haters a "forum" to be heard,Strangely third party manufactures are usually well publicised and even enjoy an almost protected status on forums "because they are doing what GW wont/hasnt/cant" even when they may be breaking IP law or seriously flaunting it while the flip side of the coin is that GW can be slated from now till the cows come home for absolutely anything they do or do not do and on some forums (not so much here) that would get the defender a load of abuse for being a fan boy.

Thunder wolves are a bit of a prime example, the internet community has been banging on since the leaked info that space marines could ride wolves about GW MUST release a kit, So they did and i think its a pretty amazing addition to the space wolf range, its got three giant plastic wolves with optional bits and three riders with loads of optional bits including a thousand son helmet for the base, the kit has 121 parts. I personally think its the best looking thunder wolf kit on the market , it got everything it needs, requires no converting, requires no parts from multiple different suppliers, the wolves look like wolves...etc etc

But a plastic kit with all the trimmings isnt good enough for some portions of the internet community, "they would have preferred X" or "they needed to be more like Y" so on and so forth, the community only cares about its own opinion, some people post opinions purely to get a rise, some people post opinions because its contradictory to someone else, some people post just to hate GW (stella/james tiberious).
People are entitiled to there opinions and they should post them, but GW should never ever listen to them, they have designers and writers and accountants and managers and lawyers, those are the people that run the show and those are the people whos opinions matter, as consumers the only voice we have is our wallets and thats the only voice GW need to listen to, If we dont buy it then its shite, just because we say its shite online or that we love it it makes no difference, if we spend our money on it then its good, if the sales bomb then they know they have dropped a bollock and need to look at it again.


----------



## SilverTabby

GW don't, as a whole, read these forums for the reasons above. 

What they do read and take into account, is reasoned and well-written letters and emails submitted via the routes they advertise that _they want your feedback by_. No-one in their right mind will trawl through the mountains of vitriol that get posted on forums. 

GW don't ignore public opinion. They just ignore forums and those who can't be bothered to _tell_ them their opinion rather than shouting it uselessly from the rooftops and complaining when GW can't or won't hear that.


----------



## boreas

I don't believe that... Any reasonnable individual can browse through GW-related forums, even Warseer, and filter out the useless hate in order to find some real useful things. People, like me, have been telling GW their opinions through well-written letters or email. GW just doesn't listen, or at least, not in away that lets people know they do. Proof? How many people, myself included, have asked for timely release of FAQs? Please, _please_, don't tell me that GW has listened and that FAQ are well handled.

Most big companies use focus groups to know what their customers want. I guess that this is pretty expensive. A modern, low-cost way to do a similar thing would be to actually listen to masses of customers how actually volunteer tons of information for free. Remember the FAQs that (finally!) updated to stormshields and various rules and wargears? People have been asking for that for years on various forums. By being proactive, listening and acting upon this great idea (which they finallly did), GW would have probably diminished the GW-hate by a large measure. If they did that with every rulebook, armybook and codex, player would be more forgiving.

Look at how Nick, from CHS has turned around the heat by coming here and discussing with the players. I'm not suggesting that GW do the same, as it's more difficult for a big organisation. But letting players know the listen would buy them lots of goodwill. 

The first move should be GW's here. By opening the door to dialogue with the customers, they might get the positive feedback going. If worse come to worse and it fails, they can at least say they tried...

Phil


----------



## bitsandkits

Sorry Phil i didnt make myself clear , here is what im talking about, thunderwolves again as an example, here is the feed back GW would get.

group a " i like thunder wolves because they have rough fur" 
group B " i dislike thunderwolves because they should have smooth fur" 

Group A " I like the thunder wolves because they are very wolf like!"
Group B " i dislike the thunder wolves because they are too wolf like and not like the fluff/artwork/the idea in my mind of what they should look like" 

Group A " the thunderwolves are a great bargain for three plastic wolves"
Group B " i think thunder wolves are two expensive for what you get in the box"

Also i dont think focus groups are as widely used as you would think and often when they are used the questions are tailored in a way for the product to come out on top to keep people up high happy, but as with anything money is king.

even if you remove all the hate and pointless stuff you still end up with feedback that is unuseable, GW knows where its focus needs to be, its just that the community's opinion of what GW needs to do is different to GW focus most often, because the community is self serving.
If GW asked twelve 40k gamers what they thought 40k needed they would get 12 differnt answers and all of them would most likely be something relating to the hobby on a personal level of the person asked.

If they asked me i would say that they needed Eldar plastic super heavies, even though i know deep down the sisters of battle could really use the love first, but i dont care about the sisters so give me a scorpion tank!!! damn it!


----------



## Uveron

boreas said:


> Look at how Nick, from CHS has turned around the heat by coming here and discussing with the players. I'm not suggesting that GW do the same, as it's more difficult for a big organisation. But letting players know the listen would buy them lots of goodwill.


He has kinda turned it around, I still find what he produces "abhorrent" for the most part, but I am not going to say that on a thread where people who are trying to talk about it logicaly, it would have no place so I keep my mouth closed. 

What GW could do, is have nicely moderated online meetings, allows for dialog with the writers and sculptures, and make the whole place feel more open and fan friendly.


----------



## boreas

B&K, I completely agree with you that opinions would diverge immensly. I just don't agree that it's completely unusable. I think that while GW could and should maintain it's own course an policies 90% of the time, they should shown signs of openness (sp?) that are tangible to the fanbase.

The design of kits and models are are thing that GW does pretty well. They should keep it as is for now. Hence those amazing thunderwolves. I read very little complaining (comparatively) in regards to actual GW models. The only complaining, really, is because GW doesn't release _enough_ models, so I guess that's pretty much proof that people like GW models!!! And while I'll defend the fact that GW sould release models closer to releasing the rules (and that third parties can produce rule-fitting models in the meantime and after), I don't think that's where the customer's role comes into play.

But when it comes to other things, like rules and FAQs ("soft" things that can be changed online on a regular schedule, like every 6 months, 3 months, etc...), GW could easily tap in "crowdsourcing". The players produce an incredible amount of _work_ tha GW could benefit from if they only took a bit of time to sift through. This is where the dialogue would benefit both parties because the players getter ebtter rules and FAQs and GW get positive attention for it's will to listen.

Phil


----------



## Eleven

Opinions will always contrast. But we can still move forward with due to the democratic process.

90% wants rough fur on their thunderwolves
10% want smooth fur. 
We now know what to do.

However, handling modeling like this is another issue entirely. What we want is the rules to be improved using the internet. We all know how we decide difficult rulings. We go to rules debates online and try to figure out which side is presented the most logically. GW isn't even aware of half the rules issues. If they would look at rules forums (or have one of their own) they would get a 'beta test' for free. They could then find solutions to problems they weren't even aware of.

If they make their own forum, yes there will be hate, yes there will be trolls. This doesn't stop almost every video game company. If they really wanted to make a constructive rules community, they could have a private invite rules board where they select the most useful members of the community to have reasonable debate concerning the rules.


----------



## GrizBe

boreas said:


> Look at how Nick, from CHS has turned around the heat by coming here and discussing with the players.



Actually, apparently its not him. Theres a rumor going about his lawyers have banned him from commenting online as he keeps causing trouble for himself, and he's hired someone to write his replies for him...


----------



## SilverTabby

boreas said:


> The first move should be GW's here. By opening the door to dialogue with the customers, they might get the positive feedback going. If worse come to worse and it fails, they can at least say they tried...
> 
> Phil


They have opened that door. It's been open for years. 

They tried having GW-run forums, they shut down quickly as it filled with all the loud-mouthed haters from other forums, and the more reasoned amongst us avoided them so it was *all* hate.

I have another question: who exactly would you have troll all the forums each and every day, trying to sift gems from all the rubbish? It would be a full-time job, and not something that can happen casually each day. A member of Games Dev, so they'd know if it was a viable rule option? Then you get less books. A member of the sculptors? Then you get less models. Maybe a member of 'eavy metal? 95% of them don't play. A WD writer? Then you'd get more adverts to fill the writing gaps. Someone hired specifically to do it? You really think in this climate they'd hire someone to read forums all day instead of working on their own website?

Basically, the forums are all well and good for voicing opinions, but *there are ways of legitimately getting your voice heard*. GW have told you how to do so, and that they will reply. They are not required to tell you if they're acting on it, and to be honest it's not hard to work out why some things don't happen. But please *please* stop complaining that they don't listen to the public, when the public don't bother talking to them the way they've been asked to. 

99% of all people on this forum have no idea what it's like behind the scenes in the Studio, what the deadlines are like and how management decide most things. There aren't enough people, and no money to hire extraneous people to do things like read forums. The guys who work there do actually like hearing from the public. Games Dev was very happy with the responces they got for the Sisters WDDex, as the haters never bothered to voice their opinions anywhere other than on forums, and those who appreciated the dex wrote to GW directly saying thank you and offering constructive critisism. 

You can shout here til you're blue in the keyboard. Want to be heard? Do it properly and encourage all your friends to too. Just remember the grammar and spelling - emails that make your eyes bleed to read are just ignored.


----------



## SilverTabby

To be honest, I had thought about starting a thread here for constructive critisism of GW stuff. Once a month it would be collated and rendered to bullet points, and then sent to GW as a monthly letter about what had come out this month. 

Then I realised I didn't want to be spending my very limited spare time slaving over it, when all it amounted to was other people not being bothered to write to GW themselves with their ideas and comments. 

Todays culture is all about finding blame with other people. Stop complaining that they aren't listening when you're not talking to them, and talk to them instead.


----------



## vetsgtnamaan

Privateer Press manages to have forums and paid staffers to answer rules questions. IF they can do it GW certainly could. It is not a question of being able to, it is as always a question of desire, and GW has been able to sell their minis while ignoring any online contact with their customers. So they have zero reason to change their course.


----------



## GrizBe

vetsgtnamaan said:


> Privateer Press manages to have forums and paid staffers to answer rules questions. IF they can do it GW certainly could. It is not a question of being able to, it is as always a question of desire, and GW has been able to sell their minis while ignoring any online contact with their customers. So they have zero reason to change their course.


Thing is though, GW is litterally a thousand times bigger then PP. Think about how many forums their are out there that talk about GW stuff...

If GW were to make an official forum, they'd litterally need to hire at least 100 extra staff to manage it. Hell, Heresy has 22 staff to keep it running, and I don't think we're that busy. If Jez had to pay them a decent wage for doing their jobs, he'd litterally have to plaster the entire page in adds and sell both kidneys to pay for the server costs.


----------



## Adramalech

So, anything interesting or possibly valid about sixth edition since the first 7 or so pages? I've been out for a while...


----------



## docgeo

Adramalech said:


> So, anything interesting or possibly valid about sixth edition since the first 7 or so pages? I've been out for a while...


Yeah I am curious also...but my guess is nothing new or concrete.


Doc


----------



## boreas

SilverTabby said:


> But please *please* stop complaining that they don't listen to the public, when the public don't bother talking to them the way they've been asked to.
> 
> ...
> 
> You can shout here til you're blue in the keyboard. Want to be heard? Do it properly and encourage all your friends to too. Just remember the grammar and spelling - emails that make your eyes bleed to read are just ignored.


Do you know how many letters and emails I've sent to GW? Proper, well-written letter and mail? Usually those were asking when and if we'd get an update on Sisters of Battle. Over a dozen. I usually got this answer: "Sorry, but we can't really answer". When 5th ed got out and Sisters had a lot of holes and little in way of FAQ, GW still didn't answer. I managed to get the personnal email of Andy Hoare who then took time to answer. But the guy's not there any more...

Ever tried to get a proper answer in regards to rules clarification from GW? It's a joke. Even well written letters or mails will get you rubbish... Sending anything by letter or email to gw is basically the same as putting it directly in the real or virtual trashcan...

And I pretty sure someone at "game dev" could sift through the forums. Heck, I've got a full time job running my business, 2 kids, a wife, time to paint and play WFB and WH40k, train twice a week, make my own beer, make artisanal bread, play Skyrim and I still have time to browse around GW-related forums... 1-2 hours a week to find the most common rule problems (usually the first page of rule questions on HO, Warseer, B&C, Dakka) and you can already put out a few more official answers to those questions. 

Phil


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## SilverTabby

boreas said:


> Do you know how many letters and emails I've sent to GW? Proper, well-written letter and mail? Usually those were asking when and if we'd get an update on Sisters of Battle. Over a dozen. I usually got this answer: "Sorry, but we can't really answer". When 5th ed got out and Sisters had a lot of holes and little in way of FAQ, GW still didn't answer. I managed to get the personnal email of Andy Hoare who then took time to answer. But the guy's not there any more...
> 
> Ever tried to get a proper answer in regards to rules clarification from GW? It's a joke. Even well written letters or mails will get you rubbish... Sending anything by letter or email to gw is basically the same as putting it directly in the real or virtual trashcan...
> 
> And I pretty sure someone at "game dev" could sift through the forums. Heck, I've got a full time job running my business, 2 kids, a wife, time to paint and play WFB and WH40k, train twice a week, make my own beer, make artisanal bread, play Skyrim and I still have time to browse around GW-related forums... 1-2 hours a week to find the most common rule problems (usually the first page of rule questions on HO, Warseer, B&C, Dakka) and you can already put out a few more official answers to those questions.
> 
> Phil


Firstly, "when will" questions will never get a straight answer. Given the tight nature of release schedules and clamping down on leaks, an email asking "when..." will never get you anywhere. How many emails have you sent that were on topics and ideas that would realistically get a responce other than "sorry, can't answer that"?

Rules queries need to be ones that truly can't be fixed by simply reading the rulebook. The amount of rubbish that gets sent that is people going "it's not fair I can't break the rules like this" is astounding, and get ignored or told to read the rulebook. 

Secondly, well done on being able to browse the forums so well. I look after my 2 kids full time, and only have the time to skim-read 3 sections of this forum for about 20mins a day if i'm lucky, and check emails. What you want Games Dev to do, on top of work and families, is trawl multiple forums, reading all 3 games systems, hoping they'll find something of use...

Most common rules queries: I seem to have FAQs saved to my computer for almost every race, that were recently released. New books have had FAQs within a few months. What more do you want, personalised emails whenever a query is posted online? See above points on most queries about rules. 9/10 rules queries are only posted because the book hasn't been read right or someone wants to abuse a rule so is deliberately reading it skewed.

I've been playing 40k for *years*, and mostly the only rules queries I have are because the BRB is laid out terribly. The rest I can amicably agree with my opponent.


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## boreas

So, basically, GW has this GREAT communication, but I can't ask about upcoming models, rules or FAQs because GW can't and shouldn't inform their customers. Also, I shouldn't really ask rules questions, because the rules are clear enough and the GW staff only gets swamped by idiots asking dumb questions that they should be able to dice off?

Ok, so it's good to know. In the future, I'll only use the GW great communication system to inform them of my praise and adoration... :friends:


I'm sorry, I believe that companies should listen to their customers. Othesr, obviously think that companies should be thight block boxes that suck our money and tell us want we want and what we like...

Phil


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## Baron Spikey

boreas said:


> So, basically, GW has this GREAT communication, but I can't ask about upcoming models, rules or FAQs because GW can't and shouldn't inform their customers. Also, I shouldn't really ask rules questions, because the rules are clear enough and the GW staff only gets swamped by idiots asking dumb questions that they should be able to dice off?
> 
> Ok, so it's good to know. In the future, I'll only use the GW great communication system to inform them of my praise and adoration... :friends:
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I believe that companies should listen to their customers. Othesr, obviously think that companies should be thight block boxes that suck our money and tell us want we want and what we like...
> 
> Phil


I believe Tabby meant- use some common sense.

-Of course they're not going to tell you about forthcoming releases, you'd have to be deficient to think they would. 

-They're not going to answer rules questions that aren't completely fucked up.

-GW does listen to their customers when, as Silvertabby keeps on saying, they go through the right channels. 

I'm shocked at how these simple points seem to have left you confused and bitter.


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## slaaneshy

Well this thread has decended into utter pointlessness....i'll come back when some actually has some rumours to share.....


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## SilverTabby

Good point. Let's take this elsewhere...

See you in General 40k. Back to waiting for the june release :wink:


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## boreas

Agreed! Move along, people, keep rumoring 

Phil


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## Adramalech

docgeo said:


> Yeah I am curious also...but my guess is nothing new or concrete.
> 
> 
> Doc


that's a shame. I'd like to read something that can be confirmed by multiple sources :s info on the first few codex releases and what armies are going to be in the big fancy starter-box would be expecially fun


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## BloodAngelZeros

Doelago said:


> But thats Space Marine, it was a video game... But when we are talking anything GW proper it tends to look like, um, this: 7
> 
> Games Workshop TV spot - YouTube
> 
> Games Workshop TV Commercial - YouTube



Well, we see why they don't do tv commercials....

Also, I think the second one might be fake. The female to male ratio is too high....

As for the rumor, though I think the document is fake I could still see a release somewhere around June, July or August.


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