# Warp diseases in the Imperial Fists/Blood Angels



## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

I've just read the Legion of the Damned book, and the appearance of what seems to be a psychological condition in the Imperial Fists struck me as kind of similar to the Black Rage of the Blood Angels. Based on the fact that 

-both of their primarchs are dead
-both of their primarchs died in areas saturated with Chaotic energies (Chaos battle barge and battleship respectively)
-both share an apparent lack of a psysiological cause (although Kersh was cured by electroshocks to the brain)
-both were brought about by their primarch's mental anguish (death and anguish, which could be Dorns pre-death condition as easily as when he found the empra)

I had the idea that the primarch's deaths, combined with a suitably warp-exposed setting gave their legions and genetic successors a limited warp mutation that manifests to the present day in 40k.

Other primarchs that have to be considered are Russ and Ferrus, as the former's legion also has a mutation, and the latters' doesn't despite being dead. I'd suggest that the Wolfen curse is entirely genetic in nature (as one Space Wolf actually managed to cure it), and that Ferrus died on an ordinary planet without the colossal warp exposure that Dorn and Sanguinius suffered.

Or....they could have a similar warp affliction that we don't know about, which is compensated for by their use of mechanical augmentation.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

The Blood Angel's issues stem from how they activate their geneseed. Like the Wolves the process isn't the same as with other legions in that it has a secondary component. With the Wolves it is the Canis Helix and with the BA it is the rquirement that they consume their primarch's blood to fully activate their geneseed. Your supposition about chaos warping them is partially true. As far as I am aware in order to continue recruiting the BA had to harvest the blood of sanguinus postmortem and it now resides in all of the blood streams of the various sanguinary priests. Thus it is possible that some corruption did enter into them that way. Several BAs have managed to overcome it though, the librarian from the Deathwatch series for starters, even the entire Lamenters chapter. Also mephiston as the most prominent. 

I am not so sure I would agree though that flaws in chapters can always be traced back to a primarch's death. With the BA it does seem at least possible but I haven't heard that EVERY chapter descended from Imperial fist stock has a massive flaw (although they have lost the use of several components of their geneseed). In the first case all successors to the BA have the same affliction but not all of the fists do.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

SonofMalice said:


> The Blood Angel's issues stem from how they activate their geneseed. Like the Wolves the process isn't the same as with other legions in that it has a secondary component. With the Wolves it is the Canis Helix and with the BA it is the rquirement that they consume their primarch's blood to fully activate their geneseed. Your supposition about chaos warping them is partially true. As far as I am aware in order to continue recruiting the BA had to harvest the blood of sanguinus postmortem and it now resides in all of the blood streams of the various sanguinary priests. Thus it is possible that some corruption did enter into them that way.


Is it actually nailed down in writing that this is what causes the Black Rage? Because I'm pretty sure its' causes are still left officially unexplained, and the cup is left unlinked with genetic degradation.



SonofMalice said:


> With the BA it does seem at least possible but I haven't heard that EVERY chapter descended from Imperial fist stock has a massive flaw (although they have lost the use of several components of their geneseed). In the first case all successors to the BA have the same affliction but not all of the fists do.


I don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that it afflicts severall/all of Dorn's descendants before Kersh's fight in the Iron Cage.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Sturmovic said:


> Is it actually nailed down in writing that this is what causes the Black Rage? Because I'm pretty sure its' causes are still left officially unexplained, and the cup is left unlinked with genetic degradation.


I just started reading fear to tread and apparently it existed before Sanguinus died and is a part of his own geneseed. Before even the heresy there were incidences of the Black Rage.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I only think the Excoriators suffer from the Darkness, I don't believe any others do. Most sons of dorn though suffer from the inability to be asleep and awake at the same time, or what ever node uses that.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

ALL of the Primarchs were born with varying degrees of corruption, they were flawed from the onset, Remember Sanguinius had wings, lorgar was a fanatic etc..., while the primarchs were in their pods and torn away by the Ruinous powers they were all corrupted on a genetic level.

The black rage was always prevalent, it was as much a part of Sanguinius (when he killed those 100 mutants on Baal he went into a psychotic rage) as it is a part of his legion.

and to OP indeed the iron hands are afflicted by a physical need to replace and augment their bodies (like their primogenitor) with mechanical substitutes.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

in my opinion a chapters genetic mutations can often be a valuable asset, the wolves for example are more resistant to the temptations of chaos, weans out the weak, improves strength/reflexes and reaction times.
however as certain enemies like the thousand sons can use this "flaw" to aid in the wolves destruction in various ways and so it is, in conclusion a double edged sword.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Sturmovic said:


> I don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that it afflicts severall/all of Dorn's descendants before Kersh's fight in the Iron Cage.


I'm sceptical on this one. While I'm usually one of the first to say that if BL publish it it's canon, but _Legion of the Damned _ is the first time this condition is ever mentioned in regard to the IFs or their successors, which is unusual for one of the founding Legions. While it made a handy plot device in the novel, I really can't see it ever appearing again.

As to all the genetic flaws like the wulfen, red thirst and black rage, it's pretty much established that they were present in the the relevant legions while their primarchs were still around. While I can understand the red thirst afflicting BAs while Sang was around though, I'm not a fan of the Black Rage being around before as it was always mentioned as being the psychic backlash of Sang's death.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm sceptical on this one. While I'm usually one of the first to say that if BL publish it it's canon, but _Legion of the Damned _ is the first time this condition is ever mentioned in regard to the IFs or their successors, which is unusual for one of the founding Legions. While it made a handy plot device in the novel, I really can't see it ever appearing again.


The Fists+successors are one of the more underused First Founding Legions in terms of being the protagonists though. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> As to all the genetic flaws like the wulfen, red thirst and black rage, it's pretty much established that they were present in the the relevant legions while their primarchs were still around. While I can understand the red thirst afflicting BAs while Sang was around though, I'm not a fan of the Black Rage being around before as it was always mentioned as being the psychic backlash of Sang's death.


I can't comment, as I haven't read the HH books, but surely the Black Rage couldn't have been present before Sanguinius' death?
I also feel the slim possibility that since it's a warp disease, the BAs could have been feeling it before the actual trigger event. That's the sort of mindf''k that the warp is capable of.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Sturmovic said:


> I also feel the slim possibility that since it's a warp disease, the BAs could have been feeling it before the actual trigger event. That's the sort of mindf''k that the warp is capable of.


Good point, well made. Never thought of it like that.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

as i said and explained in my previous post, it was a part of Sanguinius, just like his wings, since its passed on genetically it makes sense that his legion is also afflicted.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What is this warp disease of the IF you speak of?


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Lost&Damned said:


> as i said and explained in my previous post, it was a part of Sanguinius, just like his wings, since its passed on genetically it makes sense that his legion is also afflicted.


I'd like to point out that it's neither necessaily passed on genetically in a physical sense (as no-one has ever even found a trace of it during a medical examination), and that Sanguinius' wings weren't passed on either.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Lux said:


> What is this warp disease of the IF you speak of?


The Darkness something. It was shown in the Legion of the Damned novel.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

‘Yes!’ Kyriss threw up its hands, staggering backwards. It jabbed its claws at the smouldering crystal capsule above, rocking back and forth on its thick hawsers. ‘The ragefire is lit, and it burns now, ceaseless.’ The daemon leered at the Angel. ‘It is the manifestation of the darkness inside you, abhuman. The same threads of red and black that spin through the molecules of your flesh and blood. The flaw dormant in your sons…’ It cocked its head, toying with the words. ‘The flaw that you have carried since your birth, Sanguinius.’
‘What lies are these?’ spat Kaide. ‘My lord, destroy it and be done!’
‘They are not lies,’ said the primarch, the pain rising in his eyes once more. He glanced at Raldoron, sharing the brief anguish with him. The captain remembered a warrior in the ruins of a sunken church on Melchior, and the handful of others before that.
‘We know you, Angel,’ Kyriss said, stifling a cough. ‘We always have. Did you never wonder, in the long darkness of the night, when you were alone and troubled? Did you ever dare to voice thought about the origins of…’ It trailed off, pausing to make a shape in the air, tracing the lines of Sanguinius’s wings. ‘…your gifts?’ The low, brassy cackle sounded once more. ‘When you were cast from your errant father’s arms to settle in the dust and the rad-lands of Baal, the Ruinous Powers watched you. They laid hands upon you.’

basically supports my first post on this thread. 

the blood angels had their flaw before they even met with their primogenitor, the iron hands used mechanical substitutes for their biological components long before the death of ferrus, the wulfen curse affected the space wolves since their inception, the thousand sons are the same.

If you read Aurelian you would also know that Lorgars fanaticism aswell as that of his sons both stem from the corrupting touch of the warp, while his pod traversed the warp the gods opened it and bestowed upon him, like every other brother dubious "gifts", thereby also inevitably affecting their sons.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What does this curse/mutation of the imperial fists do to them? Any details?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It drives them to make massive amounts of fake Primarch heads, you never know when you're going to need one.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> What does this curse/mutation of the imperial fists do to them? Any details?





Imperial Fists IA said:


> The Imperial Fists gene-seed is very stable and has never exhibited signs of mutation. They have, however, lost the use of some of the more minor genetic enhancements of the Space Marines. Specifically they no longer possess the sus-an membrane that allows the Space Marine to enter a state of suspended animation. Neither do they have a Betchers gland, which allows a Space Marine to spit corrosive poison at a foe.
> 
> With the exception of a peculiar and unexplained need to scrimshaw the bones of past Battle Brothers when off duty, they have exhibited no weaknesses. One trait that has attracted scrutiny is the practice of using a device called the pain glove to punish infractions. Named after a more ancient device, the pain glove is actually an all-encompassing tunic of electrofibres suspended in a steel gibbet. The errant Space Marine is placed entirely within the device and kept conscious while waves of pain wash through him. Through this ordeal, the miscreant learns to focus past the pain and strengthen his link with the Primarch. However, the Chapter tends to use the sanction with unusual frequency for a unit whose discipline is legendary. Considering the circumstances of Rogal Dorn's eventual death, it is clear that the Imperial Fists have a drive for self-sacrifice that they must continually battle to overcome.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> I just started reading fear to tread and apparently it existed before Sanguinus died and is a part of his own geneseed. Before even the heresy there were incidences of the Black Rage.


Blood Angels have 2 Defects, Black Rage and the Red Thrist. The Red Thirst is what they've always suffered from and it also makes them super angry (Like Sanguineous got) and lust for the Blood of their Enemies. They have this because they're space Vampires. 

The Black Rage is different and it makes them believe they are actually back in to times of the Heresy at the dying moments of their Primarch. This makes them insane and super angry. This is a psychic effect caused by Sanguineous's death.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lux said:


> What does this curse/mutation of the imperial fists do to them? Any details?


The Excoriators second founding chapter suffer from an illness called the Darkness, which is similar to the Blood Angels black rage. It takes them back to when Dorn first found the dying Emperor on Horus's ship. It has something to do with the Catalepsean Node rather than psychic trauma or anything else more mystical. While they are suffering from the darkness they seem to shut down entirely and basically have a living nightmare.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> Blood Angels have 2 Defects, Black Rage and the Red Thrist. The Red Thirst is what they've always suffered from and it also makes them super angry (Like Sanguineous got) and lust for the Blood of their Enemies. They have this because they're space Vampires.
> 
> The Black Rage is different and it makes them believe they are actually back in to times of the Heresy at the dying moments of their Primarch. This makes them insane and super angry. This is a psychic effect caused by Sanguineous's death.


See, these two things always bothered me because they are so similar. You have the red thirst so you're super angry and want to rip some guy's heart out and drink his blood. Black Rage you want...the exact same thing but with images of the final moments of Sanguinus thrown in. Are you more angry? Is it just that you can't come back from it that makes it different? 

In any case the visions of Sanguinus showed him with Black and red threads so I just assumed that it was a reference to the black rage. Also in the opening of the book that one marine clearly wasn't going to be normal and come back from his little blood drinking moment. If the red thirst is temporary then he didn't have it. If the Black rage is ONLY him imagining the last moments of Sanguinus and going insane he didn't have that either. Either way it read to me that the black rage had always existed along with the red thirst but was the point of no return. They never really specify but that is what I could glean from it.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It does kinda separate them in the Blood Angels codex. The Red Thirst makes you hunger for peoples blood, the Black Rage makes you go insane. It's possible to get just a touch of the Red Thirst and come back from it, or if your Mephiston just man it up. Though if you're lost to the Red Thirst entirely then they lock you in a big tower. It's described as 



> Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment


This is the Flaw the Blood Angels have always had, like Space Wolves being furries etc. 

The Black Rage makes you go insane. You believe you ARE sanguineous in many cases but it also means you're entirely unable to contain your Red Thirst rage within you.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The marine at the beginning of Fear to Tread though was insane but also hungering for Blood.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

They're not mutually exclusive though, so you can be Black Ragin and lose control of your Thirst just fine. Or you can just go mad for Blood without the Black Rage and get yourself locked in a tower on Baal.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> It does kinda separate them in the Blood Angels codex. The Red Thirst makes you hunger for peoples blood, the Black Rage makes you go insane. It's possible to get just a touch of the Red Thirst and come back from it, or if your Mephiston just man it up. Though if you're lost to the Red Thirst entirely then they lock you in a big tower. It's described as
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This might be the best explanation I've ever seen about the whole thing. Thanks for that!:grin:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

But if the Black Rage is down to Sanguineous getting owned, how can the marine at the beginning of Fear to Tread be suffering from it?

I also ways thought, the red thirst made you thirst for blood...the black rage make you go insane. I didn't think the red thirst could make you so insane it's irreversible, I thought it wore off eventually.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Look at Page 13 of the Blood Angels codex, you can be lost entirely to the Red Thirst, i'll expand on that earlier quote.



> Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment. Few Battle-Brothers can hold this Red Thirst in check unceasingly - it is far from unknown for Blood Angels to temporarily succumb to it's lure at the height of battle.
> 
> The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it a humanity and understanding of their own failings which make them truely the most noble of the Space Marines.
> 
> The fate of those unfortunates overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is know only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place.


So you can fall completely to the Red Thirst and it probably sucks, but it seems to be transient for most people.

I've not read Fear to Tread but if they have Marines suffering from the Black Rage there then that's just a continuity error more than anything else.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

This all just makes me want to read Fear to Tread. I can't speak for the Imperial Fists, but without getting in to the book just released I think Aramoro has it right. The Red Thirst is the thing they've always had (maybe even what happens in the beginning of the book, unless they call it the black rage) and the Black Rage is what it's called when they succumb to the Red Thirst and added in tripping balls over the Heresy part. All BA's are prone to violence, some are prone to violence with hallucinations and that makes them messed up to the max.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But if the Black Rage is down to Sanguineous getting owned, how can the marine at the beginning of Fear to Tread be suffering from it?
> 
> I also ways thought, the red thirst made you thirst for blood...the black rage make you go insane. I didn't think the red thirst could make you so insane it's irreversible, I thought it wore off eventually.


The red thirst is more than just a hunger for blood, it's described in the codex as an unstoppable rage...though based on what was written the author, I believe, was trying to imply that the marine was suffering from the black rage. One reason being that he had a wound that should have killed him (therefore likely benefitting from Feel No Pain which is not granted from the red thirst if looked at from a codex perspective). Secondly there is the "ritual" performed where the armor, or at least part of it was painted black by Raldoron who said, "rest, brother." "You are in the company of death..."

In my opinion the black rage must have been part of the legion before the death of Sanguinius, but may have changed in nature following his defeat. It is really the only thing I can think of that would make sense, although I'm reluctant to alter my understanding of the black rage based on the works of James Swallow (who is far from BL's most talented writer).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If that's what is says in Fear to Tread then Fear to Tread is simply wrong. Blood Angels gene-seed includes the experiences of their Primarch and the Black Rage is specifically caused by Sanguinius's final battle with Horus. You can't have these memories unless it's already happened.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> If that's what is says in Fear to Tread then Fear to Tread is simply wrong. Blood Angels gene-seed includes the experiences of their Primarch and the Black Rage is specifically caused by Sanguinius's final battle with Horus. You can't have these memories unless it's already happened.


The Warp transcends time. Is there any reason it can't affect the Angels before the trigger event?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm halfway through Fear to Tread now and they even, in italics, call it "He knew where this crimson fury, this..._red thirst_ came from". 

Red Thirst: nuts as fuck, want the blood, always been there, totally useless afterwards.

Black Rage: nuts as fuck plus you think you're Sanguinius during the final moments of the HH. "A warrior with the Black Rage..is unable to distinguish past from present. He may believe he is Sanguinius on the eve of battle..." Basically, nuts as fuck, but if you throw them at the enemy they will still fight like berserk marines, not blood craving monsters.

Where is the confusion between these two things?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's no confusions, there's the fact the warrior at the beginning of Fear to Tread seems to be suffering from the Black Rage and Red Thirst.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

They reference the warrior having 'a feral intent, an impulse drawn up from the bestial core of the warrior'. He wasn't acting as if he were in some other timeline at a battle he wasn't alive for, wasn't acting like a infuriated marine- more like a beast that just wants blood.

The only thing that touches on the DC in the prologue of the book is that he marks the armour black after he is dead. I just saw that as a precursor to the Death Company markings, as those who enter those ranks are said to "fight one final battle in Sanguinius' name". Figured that once the Black Rage emerged after the reconstruction of the legions into chapters it was their way of marking them in a pre-death sort of way.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

ntaw said:


> They reference the warrior having 'a feral intent, an impulse drawn up from the bestial core of the warrior'. He wasn't acting as if he were in some other timeline at a battle he wasn't alive for, wasn't acting like a infuriated marine- more like a beast that just wants blood.
> 
> The only thing that touches on the DC in the prologue of the book is that he marks the armour black after he is dead. I just saw that as a precursor to the Death Company markings, as those who enter those ranks are said to "fight one final battle in Sanguinius' name". Figured that once the Black Rage emerged after the reconstruction of the legions into chapters it was their way of marking them in a pre-death sort of way.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from.

The Red Thirst is the flaw that was plaguing the Blood Angels before Sanguinius died, and is shown and alluded to in "Fear to Tread". The Black Rage is an underlying flaw, one that the daemons exploit and reveal at the end of "Fear to Tread", but does not become active until after Sanguinius dies.

The Red Thirst is a berserker-like state with a vampiric theme to it - a savage bloodthirst, that manifests during battle and can cause the Blood Angel in question to lose control and commit atrocities he normally never would.

The Black Rage is the "race memory" of Sanguinius' death. Prior to their primarch's death, there was no trigger for it to manifest. After his death, it manifests as a hallucination, wherein the victim believes he is Sanguinius during his last hours of life -fighting Chaos, Horus, etc.

The Red Thirst affects all Blood Angels. The Black Rage COULD affect any Blood Angel, but does not. Quite simply, while all Blood Angels suffer from the Red Thirst, it is not a prerequisite for the Black Rage to kick in. One can succumb fully to the Red Thirst and not ever suffer from the Black Rage. One can come back from a fit of the Red Thirst. Only Mephiston has been able to come back from the Black Rage.


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## Matcap (Aug 23, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from.
> 
> The Red Thirst is the flaw that was plaguing the Blood Angels before Sanguinius died, and is shown and alluded to in "Fear to Tread". The Black Rage is an underlying flaw, one that the daemons exploit and reveal at the end of "Fear to Tread", but does not become active until after Sanguinius dies.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Edit: Nevermind.


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