# Horus Versus Corax



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Scenario 1. Legion vs legion in a galaxy wide war utilizing all aspects, such as resources, supply lines, forge planets, human soldier recruits.

Scenario 2. Legion vs legion in a planet wide war

Scenario 3. 10 elite solders of lunar wolves vs 10 elite soldiers of ravenguard in an arena setting, each team starts on opposite sides of the colloseum.

Scenario 4. Horus Versus Corax in one on one combat to the death. Each primarch gets their custom wargear of preference, as well as being able to utilize all their powers, skills, and abilitties to the best of their potential.

Note - characters are fighting for the kill/win to the best of their abilities, but still retain their unique personality traits which give them their strengths, tactics, etc.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

1. Lunar Wolves undoubtedly, they are much more organized and powerful, they would crush the raven guard in a galaxy wide war

2. i would say it to be a close one, but i would have to chose the Lunar Wolves for their greater amount of number as well as resources and firepower

3. Raven guard, becuase they are more skilled in combat as well as being more agile and faster

4. as i voted, i think it would be a draw


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

1. Luna Wolves. Almost goes without saying
2. Luna Wolves
3. Luna Wolves
4. Horus. In Raven Flight Corax admits that Horus is better.

I think that like many legions that weren't as successful as Horus, Dorn, Lion, and Guilliman, they were to one dimensional in their styles of fighting. And though they still crushed their foes it was a slower process.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

1. Raven Guard as the raven guard speacalise in sabotage and secrecy, the lunar wolves would not have the resources to fight, let alone who/Where theyre fighting.

2. A Close one. The Lunar Wolves can muster and bring more rescources and firepower to bear, however the longer the fight becomes drawn out, the weaker and weaker the Lunar Wolves would become as they are constantly harrassed and sabbotaged without the chance to confront their enemies.

3. Lunar Wolves. Nails Hard, more experinece and 1 on 1 is not suited to the ravenguard style of warfare, although I would assume they would be the far more manoevrble and agile.

4. Draw. The Primarchs are all evenly matched. ( Hence why all of their fights (i.e lion and the wolf) lasted so long) I think it would end in a draw. Horus has Spent far longer as a tactician but wether he had the martial prowess to defeat another primarch before chaos elevated him.....


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> 1. Luna Wolves. Almost goes without saying
> 2. Luna Wolves
> 3. Luna Wolves
> 4. Horus. In Raven Flight Corax admits that Horus is better.
> ...


As above.

I would probably say 1 and 4 are pretty much the same scenario since Horus' tactic is 'cut off the head' aka spear tip.

Not sure if we are talking pre or post Davin but it wouldn't change the result.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

For scenario four, I think Corax could take the win, even by Horus's own opinion, the three primarchs who defeated him in singular combat were Russ, Sang, and I think Corax. He names three who defeated him, and also mentions Kurze is an unknown to him due to never having trained him.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Lux said:


> For scenario four, I think Corax could take the win, even by Horus's own opinion, the three primarchs who defeated him in singular combat were Russ, Sang, and I think Corax. He names three who defeated him, and also mentions Kurze is an unknown to him due to never having trained him.


When does he say who has beaten him?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It was an old dwarf article, it was stating how horus trained all the primarchs in combat, and of all the primarchs only three bested him in singular combat; Russ, Sang, and the third I don't recall but I know it wasn't angron...might of been corax. It also goes on to state that Kurze is an unknown to him in this regard due to he is the only primarch which trained himself, and wasn't trained by horus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sure your not confusing this with Ravens Flight? i'm pretty sure in that Corax when he sees that Angron is hunting him he mentions that few of the primarchs could best Horus, Angron and Sanguinius being some of them. Can't remember, need to listen to it again really


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The three best fighters were Sang, Angron, and Russ. Not necessarily in that order. And there was an old WD that said the top 3 were those and that thy beat Horus in combat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

1. Luna Wolves.
2. Luna Wolves.
3. Luna Wolves.
4. Horus Lupercal.

Just to clarify, Corax does indeed note (in _Raven's Flight_) that in his opinion Horus, Sanguinius and Angron are three Primarchs that could best him in combat (that of course doesn't mean they are the only ones that could best him, merely they are the ones that he mentions).


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## chand223 (Mar 19, 2010)

The First Heretic shed's some light on Corax's fighting ability, if indirectly. Without spoiling anything, it appears his ability is very highly thought of by the Word Bearers, but perhaps not so much by Curze


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Ahab you sure it was Russ, Sang, and Angron? I recall sang, and Russ, but I'm pretty sure the third Horus mentioned was not Angron. Particularly because when I read it was taken back for a moment that angron wasn't one of the three mentioned.

As for Ravens flight audio book, Corax states that he is a lord of war, but angron is war incarnate. Additionally he muses to himself that if he were to fight Angron in that setting he would be killed in all likelihood, and that he believes only Horus would be able to best him in combat, and perhaps Sang.

But you have to keep in mind, each of the primarchs had their own opinion on who the top fighters were, such as Horus viewing Russ, Sang, and (pretty sure it was not angron mentioned) corax. 

However lets say Corax is superior to Horus in combat, this does not mean that Angron is not superior to Corax, it could simply be that Corax is better suited in taking down Horus's fighting style and strengths. And even though Horus is more likely to lose versus corax, he could be more likely to win versus angron, due to match up of tactics, strengths and weaknesses.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

From what I remember it was Angron, but I am probably wrong.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I was reading a bit of Kurze recently, particularily when he fought the veteran guard of the templars, I never prior realized how psychically gifted Kurze was. He spread his arms outward and caused a psychic force pulse that caused explosions along all the light fixtures ahead. Additionally it seems to me that Kurze's uncanny ability to literally bend light and darkness where he desires, is more then just skillful moving. There is a scene that describes the beams of light go directly at kurze, and he effortlessly ghosts between them. That and his ability to cause the deepest level of fear in astartes, and primarchs.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 1. Luna Wolves.
> 2. Luna Wolves.
> 3. Luna Wolves.
> 4. Horus Lupercal.
> ...



Ditto. I like to know where Kruz stands on the Primarch Fight LvL.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Ditto. I like to know where Kruz stands on the Primarch Fight LvL.


There are two examples I can reference, one is the old dwarf article, where Horus is musing about the three primarchs who bested him in combat. However he goes on to add that Konrad Kurze is the only primarch who is a unknown to him, as he is the only primarch he never trained as kurze trained himself. Additionally he is the only primarch he never fought in combat, so as stated he is an unknown.

There is also Dorn's ranking of the best fighters in the tower book, of which Dorn specifically mentions Horus, and Kurze. Dorn states that he is superior to Horus and doesn't fear him, however the only primarch he fears in combat is Kurze.

Thus once again it brings to light how each primarch has their own differing perception of who is the best fighter.

Horus's View
1. Russ
2. Sang
3. Corax
4. Himself
*specifically mentions konrad is an unknown to him

Dorn's View
1. Kurze
2. Himself
3. Horus

Corax's View
1. Angron
2. Horus
3. Sang
4. Himself
* He views that horus is the only one he believes capable of putting down Angron, however horus mentions Corax is one of the three superior to himself in combat. So it raises the question, perhaps Corax doubted his ability to kill angron due to previous wounds, or mentality at the time rather then skill or power.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye just listening to Ravens Flight, Coraz says that not another primarch could beat Angron in comabt excpet maybe Sanguinius or Horus


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax has always been one of those unknowns, I'm glad it's finally come to light that he is a gifted fighter. I voted for a Draw I think their opposing styles would cause a dead lock. 

Night Haunter is probably the most dangerous of al primarchs imo. His psychic presence gives him a massive bonus but he's also a mad man and literally ripped Dorn a new one, although Dorn didn't fight back.


The one thing that throws into doubt Horus's prowess is the way Dorn casual disregards him, I believe Dorn does think he is Horus's equal, in fact he was chosen as Horus's successor, the other's may just think to highly of Horus to truly admit they may be better. 

The best swordsmen are meant to be The Khan and Fulgrim but neither of them are mentioned much in regards to fighting other Primarchs, Indeed if it wasn't for the Daemon in him, Fulgrim wouldn't of beaten Ferrus whose not really been noted as a master fighter.

Lorgar is of course probably the worse and Magnus has to rely on his psychic far to much to be considered a competent fighter.

Although Angron is a mighty Primarch, I think he just gets to crazy and when it comes to fighting more level headed Primarchs, I think even Corax could beat him despite his personal opinion in Raven's Flight, maybe I don't do Angron justice and think he's to mindless, who knows.

The top fighters imo are like this:

Konrad Curze (Night Haunter)
Dorn
Sanguinius
Horus
Leman Russ
Corax
Angron
Khan
Fulgrim
Alpharius
Mortarion
Guilliman
The Lion
Vulkan
Ferrus
Pertruabo
Magnus
Lorgar


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't put too much stock in Dorn, his comment just seems arrogant to me rather than truth. Plus on the note of him being Horus succesor, for one i think he was only put in charge because he was the one Primarch in the position to do so, the others being flung out to all sorts of places in the galaxy. Given the choice i think Sanguinius, The Lion or Guilliman would have been put in charge over Dorn. And even then being given command doesn't show anything for his personal combat potential, just his leadership and command skills. Dorn wouldn't be near the top for me, it's gonna be between Kurze, Horus, Sanguinius, Angron and Russ


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sanguinius was near Terra though, he could of been given command as well. I guess we should just wait and see, I'm sure he'll have a confrontation with one of his fallen brothers during the siege of the Emperor's Palace.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> But you have to keep in mind, each of the primarchs had their own opinion on who the top fighters were, such as Horus viewing Russ, Sang, and (pretty sure it was not angron mentioned) corax.


IIRC it wasn't Corax that had previously triumphed Horus. It would require a direct quote from source to justify that.



Lux said:


> I was reading a bit of Kurze recently, particularily when he fought the veteran guard of the templars, I never prior realized how psychically gifted Kurze was. He spread his arms outward and caused a psychic force pulse that caused explosions along all the light fixtures ahead. Additionally it seems to me that Kurze's uncanny ability to literally bend light and darkness where he desires, is more then just skillful moving. There is a scene that describes the beams of light go directly at kurze, and he effortlessly ghosts between them. That and his ability to cause the deepest level of fear in astartes, and primarchs.


All the Primarchs were psychically gifted to varying degrees. Magnus obviously being at the top of the scale, but all of them manifested some form of psychic abilities. You've given the example of Curze. _The First Heretic_ gives us another example of Lorgar, he was psychically gifted, but repressed his abilities for the most part. 



Warlock in Training said:


> I like to know where Kruz stands on the Primarch Fight LvL.


Pretty damn high I would imagine. 



Lux said:


> There is also Dorn's ranking of the best fighters in the tower book, of which Dorn specifically mentions Horus, and Kurze. Dorn states that he is superior to Horus and doesn't fear him, however the only primarch he fears in combat is Kurze.


I havn't listened to _The Lightning Tower_ in ages, but I was under the impression that Dorn was musing that he didn't fear Horus, not that he could best him in combat? I'll have to listen to it again.

Regardless though, we know that the most martial Primarchs were; Horus, Angron, Curze, Sanguinius and Russ. Of course though, speculating on the most martial fighter out of a group of twenty superhuman warlords created with the sole intention of combat in mind isn't going to get us very far. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> in fact he was chosen as Horus's successor


He wasn't exactly named Horus' successor, he was put in command of the defence of the Imperium because he was the only individual capable of being put into such a position at the time whilst the Emperor took to the Golden Throne.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Sanguinius was near Terra though, he could of been given command as well. I guess we should just wait and see, I'm sure he'll have a confrontation with one of his fallen brothers during the siege of the Emperor's Palace.


Actually Sanguinius and the Blood Angels couldn't be contacted and were in fact being butchered by Daemons at the Signus ambush.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually Sanguinius and the Blood Angels couldn't be contacted and were in fact being butchered by Daemons at the Signus ambush.


I did a search for this and found the story was in Collected Visions? Is it worth getting, when I first heard of the art books I thought they were just that, art books and didn't know they had any writing in.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I did a search for this and found the story was in Collected Visions? Is it worth getting, when I first heard of the art books I thought they were just that, art books and didn't know they had any writing in.


Yes, it's very much worth getting. Essentially it's the blueprint for the Horus Heresy, the novels are expanding on what has already been told in the _Collected Visions_ - and theres some fantastic artwork in there as a bonus as well.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I did a search for this and found the story was in Collected Visions? Is it worth getting, when I first heard of the art books I thought they were just that, art books and didn't know they had any writing in.


Yes it is worth getting. Both myself and CotE can attest that this book is the reason we have such a indepth knowledge rearding the Heresy.

Edit: damn should have refreshed the page before posting


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Does anyone have the old dwarf article on hand? It states which 3 bested horus. Sang and russ were two, the third is unsure, I thought it was corax, I could be wrong....pretty sure it wasn't angron.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Do you remember roughly which WD it was? i.e Issue 200- higher or lower?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I'll back the collected visions is worth getting. It's very insightful, and the artwork is great as well.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Right just went to my local GW, got a can of black spray, a Empire Warrior Priest and the last copy of Collected Visions


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Enjoy. :biggrin:


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

1 - Luna Wolves
2 - Luna Wolves
3 - Raven Guard
4 - Luna Wolves

Bane of Kings Out.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

*1.*Raven, They would be able to outlast the wolves by hit-and-running.. 
*2.*Raven Guard. As above.
*3.*Wolves. Being an arena setting the Raven guard would loose all of their advantages.
*4.*Horus. He fought, and almost killed the big 'E'. :\

the Raven Guard are my favorite loyalists legion/chapter. However, I think this would be a tie given these scenarios.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Horus fighting the emperor, was horus with the power of all of Chaos being channeled through him.

This is pre heresy horus.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lux said:


> Horus fighting the emperor, was horus with the power of all of Chaos being channeled through him.
> 
> This is pre heresy horus.


Are you asking who would win between Horus and the Emperor if they had a fight?

If so, I'll go with Emperor as, you know, he did beat horus...


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I was responding to the previous poster, who based his vote on horus fighting the emperor.

Horus was only able to do so due to all of chaos empowering him.


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