# powers of the commissar



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

something i am writing at the moment and need a slight bit of help for. apart from being the spiritual guardian and Judge, Jury and executioner for the imperial guard, can a commisars authority supersede that of an inquisitor or would it depend on the situation itself. 
just cuirous as to how powerful these men are. btw happy new year all of you


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't think they are above the Inq.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Inquisition are above virtually everyone and answer to no one but their peers and their peers only have to answer to the Emperor himself. I mean they can order the destruction of a planet along with everyone on it, requisition entire forces for their own needs. Not even the High Lords themselves are above the Inquisitons powers

Commisars have full authority over guardsmen and their officers wherever they think/feel discipline is lacking up to and including executing them. But they have no authority over Inquisitors


----------



## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Though he will still shoot one go figure.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Hell if a Commissar intended to execute a Guardsman and an Inquisitor forbade it, that would be that- the soldier gets to live to fight another day.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

thanks guys for the advice


----------



## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Hell if a Commissar intended to execute a Guardsman and an Inquisitor forbade it, that would be that- the soldier gets to live to fight another day.


Not so sure about that...

What would happen in order...

1). Commissar goes to do his duty.
2). Inq says No by the Imperial Authority of the Emperor.
3). Commissar stops... but has to report his failure to the Departmento. Guardsman now dies in a totally unrelated event from an uncaring universe.
4). 30 years pass before an adept reads the file.
5). Commissar is removed from office and investigative sub comittee formed to evaluate said officers performance. Commissar however is now long dead.
6). Due to Commissar refusal to answer summons of the adpet administratums sub comittee he is deemed a heretic and stripped of rank.
7). This is then put on record somewhere.
8). Inq gets a please explain request and request for more information from a records cross checking adpet some now 45 years after to confirm the original conclusions. However Inq is now probably a renegade.
9). Adept sub comittee decides it cannot act and therefore places it before a senior adpet for further discource.
10). Commissar is again ordered to appear, so is the Inquisitor before the senior Adept. However both cannot or will not or rightly so communication never happens so nobody actually finds out.
11). Senior Adept fumes.... that nobody appears at the hearing for the cross reference records check and promptly abuses several underlings.
12). Planet Adept was on is invaded and records destroyed along with Adepts.
13). Luckily the back up paper storage on the next segmentum means that soembody will deal with this sometime within the next 4000 years or so as the orginal documentation has now been lost.

Thats really what would happen.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Commisar is still not allowed to execute the soldier, so makes all of that irrelevant, amusing, but irrelevant


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

think i first noticed a commissar in a long distant short story, the commander was not doing his duty and the commissar shot him...still just was curious as to how far the commissars powers stretched..think the best one i read was Gaunt


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ah, now Gaunt is a very good character, one of the best in fact. But the is probably the 'worst' example you could pick for a what a commisar is like. For one he has the dual role of a politcal officer as a commisar, but also a command as he is a colonel. So that already makes him very, very different to the vast majority of them. But then due to his tutelage under Commisar-General Oktar, Gaunt is very different to others aswell, as he is far less strict and hard lined than your normal commisar, he doesn't operate the same way the others do, he would rather encourage the men, lift morale and fix discipline by doing something other than executing them or using fear as a tool, he would more lilkely lead from the front, do a heroic act, make inspiring speeches, reassure the men on a man to man basis. He can though and has, shown that he can still perform his duties to their full requirement and will enact discipline where he sees it wanting. He is just nowhere near as trigger happy or strict as others. Which is why Gaunt is simply too cool for school.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey Angel did you get a shiver of 'awesomeness' when Gaunt shot those


Guardsmen stealing medical supplies and assaulting his medicae staff?


I actually did a little fist pump when I read that the first time....and the second time come to think of it.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Hey Angel did you get a shiver of 'awesomeness' when Gaunt shot those
> 
> 
> Guardsmen stealing medical supplies and assaulting his medicae staff?
> ...


Funny you should mention that, as i read that exact chapter just last night. And even the second time round i still thought, "fuck yes". Especially the one he shoots just for good measure. Much the same kind of feeling as when 

he shot that officer in Vervunhive, who had no idea what was about to happen to him until the last moment, aswell as old Uncle Dercius aswell for that matter 


Hark also has that very awsome moment in _His Last Command_, i'm sure you know which bit i mean


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood,

Isn't it a shame that both of the featured Commissars (Gaunt and Cain) happen to be anomalies within the greater institution? I for one would enjoy a grim, dark series featuring a Commissar that acts like, and does what, a "proper" Commissar would. E.g., lots of bombastic speeches, on-the-spot executions, a cold, calculating, and merciless demeanor, etc.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Would definetely be interesting to see if one of the writers could pull it off. The trick is making such a character likeable, would still like to see it


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Angel of Blood,
> 
> Isn't it a shame that both of the featured Commissars (Gaunt and Cain) happen to be anomalies within the greater institution? I for one would enjoy a grim, dark series featuring a Commissar that acts like, and does what, a "proper" Commissar would. E.g., lots of bombastic speeches, on-the-spot executions, a cold, calculating, and merciless demeanor, etc.


I believe there actually is a short story with just such a commissar. Though I do believe he forgoes executing people, there is a reason for it. The story itself centers around soldiers captured by the Dark Eldar and trying to escape, led by said commissar who refuses to give up and die when he can cause problems for the enemies of the Emperor.

Its one of the many stories included in _Let the Galaxy Burn_, which I do not have on me at the moment, so I'll have to toss an edit or post in with the title of the story unless I am beat to the punch in a bit.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

A-ha!

Thanks, darkreever.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Right, it should be _Hellbreak_ by Ben Counter; and despite people writing it off before reading it, because of the author, give the story a read and then pass your judgment.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Ah, now Gaunt is a very good character, one of the best in fact. But the is probably the 'worst' example you could pick for a what a commisar is like. For one he has the dual role of a politcal officer as a commisar, but also a command as he is a colonel. So that already makes him very, very different to the vast majority of them. But then due to his tutelage under Commisar-General Oktar, Gaunt is very different to others aswell, as he is far less strict and hard lined than your normal commisar, he doesn't operate the same way the others do, he would rather encourage the men, lift morale and fix discipline by doing something other than executing them or using fear as a tool, he would more lilkely lead from the front, do a heroic act, make inspiring speeches, reassure the men on a man to man basis. He can though and has, shown that he can still perform his duties to their full requirement and will enact discipline where he sees it wanting. He is just nowhere near as trigger happy or strict as others. Which is why Gaunt is simply too cool for school.


agreed i read all the novels so far and seen how he has developed his reationship with the tanith but also have seen how others view him as having a long out dated title and not as good as others of his profession but all is fair in love and war and Gaunt has proved to me at any rate that whilst he has all the political skills at his command, his compassion for his company (whom i believe he sees as his family) and the lengths he will go to to protect them is admirable and have you come across Viktor Hark yet...a commissar to a tee and yet i think some of Gaunts personality was rubbing off on him....but agreed angel


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Right, it should be _Hellbreak_ by Ben Counter; and despite people writing it off before reading it, because of the author, give the story a read and then pass your judgment.


i know the one you mean DR and yeah it is excellent i like some of Ben Counters stuff notably the GK novels but this was refreshingly different and i was always under the opinion that occassionally Cain was up to just as much mischief as the valhallans


----------



## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

I've only heard of the Custodes and some Astartes ever really acting outside the Inquisitions authority, the Commissariat is a branch of the Departmento Munitorum which is subordinate to the Inquisitions wishes like the rest of the Administratum.


----------



## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

The role has developed since RT era.

If you go back the original idea of the Commissar was that of Chaplain.. and if you examine the base of RT issue Commissars (yes when you people were not born and the world had things like the Commodore 64!) they say "CHAPLAIN"

The original role was done as a Chaplain but for the Guard. You have to remember that then the differences between SM and guard were fairly small. Each had Land Raiders, each had Jet cycles, each had Rhino's as par for the course. This is before the words Leman Russ Battle Tank had even come about...

The role of Commissar was stated in the Compendium as the spiritual leader of the guard, however they were often criticized as they focused on secondary... enforcement of laws and military discipline as their prime focus. In the fluff of the Compendium it states that Commissars welcomed the attention of the Chaplains on the battlefield of the Astrates who viewed them as less than perfect due to the fact they were NOT caring about the spiritual wellbeing of the guardsman.

However, you have to consider this is a time when the differences between the guard and the SM were more in line with equipment and technology rather than massed guard with crapola weaponry. In the RT era, guardsman in platoons could ALL carry grenade launchers that fired single vortex grenades... (OH YEAH!). And guardsman formed up in TACTICAL PLATOONS AND DEVESTATOR PLATOONS... sounding familiar?

After 2nd edition came out... the role moved away from even a comparison with the Astrates... it was almost heresy to even think about LR for guard, etc. at al. So the role became very assoicated with the old RT mechanic of "Shoot that officer, rally the troops." Which has become iconic in the 40k universe as a symbol of the guard and what the figure and the fluf are usually focused on.

Cain and Gaunt however don't fit that era of the role however. But it does seem to prove popular and gives the writer the ability to be flexible... the written works of Lt. Cain I am sure would not be able to be as broad... today saw mud, today shot ork, today did as Capt told me... the Commissar can move about a lot more.

Its also interesting to note that the Commissar Cadet is a unit that has fallen away but was often seen in the RT era. Differences? quite a few, but it was awesome when your Commissars were judged ready to advance in RT... and did so mid battle. Sometimes you ended up with 10 Commissars all advancing on those bloody harlequins... damn them...all!

Colors for those interested in Cadet Commissars are the standard black, however the hat bands and cuffs are done in blue, and they carry lasguns.


----------



## seb2351 (Oct 11, 2010)

Alexious said:


> Not so sure about that...
> 
> What would happen in order...
> 
> ...


This has clearly been copy and pasted from my employers disclipany process manual :laugh:


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As I see it, they are moral-boosters! They have no authority, but they have the right to shoot any IG, no matter the rank, if he fails to perform his duties. I read Desert Raiders where the regimental commissar says shooting generals have happened on more than one occassion and shooting colonels/regimental leaders is a daily work for him.

Inquisition has authority over SM, no questions asked, as it is them that brand renegade chapters as traitors.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> Inquisition has authority over SM, no questions asked, as it is them that brand renegade chapters as traitors.


Assuming that the space marines in question recognize that authority. And before the whole being declared traitors or renegades bit is waved, remember that a number of chapters, like the Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, and even Ultramarines have clashed with other bodies of the Imperium (inquisition included) and have not been declared traitors or renegades.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, the Dark Angels outright ignore the Inqusition as they try and delve into their background


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

thanks guys very informative


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Assuming that the space marines in question recognize that authority. And before the whole being declared traitors or renegades bit is waved, remember that a number of chapters, like the Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, and even Ultramarines have clashed with other bodies of the Imperium (inquisition included) and have not been declared traitors or renegades.


I'd like to quote some from a book I read about gender equality! We have the formal values = how the inquisition wants things to be, then the real facts = how its actually being performed IRL! But you are right, they dont recognize that authority, but on the paper it is the Inquisition that runs the show.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Space Marines are autonomous. An Inquisitor has no power whatsoever (officially) over a Chapter, although many choose to submit to the Inquisitor (despite that mandate having no power over them). Often this comes down to a mutual enemy, or an alliance between an Inquisitor and the Chapter/Company/Squad/Marine itself gained from fighting alongside each other, or some other service formed.

I.e Space Wolves Grey Hunter novel.


----------



## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

commissar has power over anyone in his/her regiment that him/her was assigned to, he has the right to shoot any of them if he/she expects any taint, cowardice, or other form of dereliction of duty.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually i do believe Inquisitors have authority over the Astartes, they have power over any organisation that is part of the Imperium, literally no one apart from the Emperor himself is above their jurisdiction or authority. Most Inquisitors are smart enough to go about approaching the Astartes in the right way however as they realise how mostly autonomous and proud they are.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

unless of course its the Dark Angels, seems the Inquisition wants to find anything they can about the DA but don't seem to have much luck. Thought i had read somewhere that most of the Space Marines with perhapes the exception of the UM are sus around the big I and its agents, that was until i read the first ventris novel and decided that like most things some inquisitors deal respectfully with the Astartes chapters and some do not, my case being both UM ventris novels


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

They still should answer to the Inquisition, they just choose not to, and the Inquisition choose not to try and start a war with one of the first founding chapters with no actual proof of any wrong doing.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

true i guess then thats why they are so whats the word i am looking for here.....nervous around the DA, the DA being willing to do what they have to do to keep thier secrets and correct me if i am wrong but by your comment that would suggest that it is the mere reluctance of the Inquistion to upset a founding chapter/leigon that keeps thier secrets safe...for now.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The inquisition does not have authority over space marine chapters, at least in the regards of getting them to do their bidding. In some regards, chapters will submit to certain things, like hearing what an inquisitor has to say or allowing for a meeting for one reason or another.

But like with the mechanicum, an inquisitor cannot come up to a group of space marines and demand they do as he says. More often then not those marines will flat out refuse, ignore, or potentially eliminate said inquisitor (assuming he is trying to use them for something treacherous.)


Think about any instances you have ever read of inquisitors dealing with space marines. Usually they need to request their aid, or inform them of something bad which leads the marines to being willing to deal with it on their own terms. Its rare for marines to submit completely to the authority of the inquisition, though there are a few cases of it (Kryptman is a very good example of this all things considered.)


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still disagree. The Inquisitorial Remit makes it quite clear that nobody except the Emperor himself is above the scrutiny of the Inquisition. Whilst they may not be able to directly take control or forcefully aquire the assistance of the Astartes, they are still well within their power to call them or any member of the Imperium to face any charges or answer to any investigations they are involved with. Like i said though, they are smart enough not to demand anything from the Astartes as they know they likely won't listen(even though they should) and as a result go about doing it another way.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

but does that include deathwatch? i was under the impression they were linked to the inquisition aside from the chamber millitants greatest warriors the Grey Knights


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well the Deathwatch very much are under control of the Inquisition as the Ordo Millitant of the Ordo Xenos and the Inquisitors of the Xenos will, can and do give direct orders to the Deathwatch


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

so i suppose in a way that gives the ordos a foot hold in shall we say enforcing thier will over the astartes. I think i read somewhere that each leigon/chapter allows thier bravest to serve a tenure in deathwatch. Is it a seperate chapter or is deathwatch just a tour of duty for the other chapters.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It is a seperate chapter, but the Astartes come from any of the chapters for, like you said, a tour of duty. The tour has no fixed length of time, it could be for the duration of one mission, or indefinetly. The Astartes gets 'loaned' to the Death Company, repaints his armour black apart from the one shoulder guard which remains in his chapters colours and heraldry. Then when his tour is done, he is sent back to his parent chapter under an oath of silence.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

thanks Angel much apreciated


----------

