# Why all the hate



## dkoz (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't understand why people hate flyers so much, they claim 40K is no place for flyers, and that they have ruined the game, can some one explain it to me? I see them as just another unit that once all the codexs are updated wont have that big of an advantage.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I personally enjoy flyers in the game. It adds a new dimension to the game, and some of the models look great. Some of them seem overpowered, but once more armies have decent anti air capability it will be fine.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

People always respond with hate to new stuff, that they have a hard time countering. It's simply a new dimension to the game that people have to get used to


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

humakt said:


> Some of them seem overpowered, but once more armies have decent anti air capability it will be fine.


I think this is issue, not every army has got them yet and even some armies that have got flyers still don't have a decent anti-flyer that isn't a flyer itself if you know what I mean.


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

humakt said:


> I personally enjoy flyers in the game. It adds a new dimension to the game, and some of the models look great. Some of them seem overpowered, but once more armies have decent anti air capability it will be fine.


Exactly this. New fliers and anti-air are trickling in, and the balance is starting to level out. 

I personally dont like them however, and its not from a power level standpoint. I have a Raven and Talon and dont even use them. I like boots on the ground, not relying on something to come in at the right moment, and then doing slight turns hoping to line it up with targets. My BS5 Tank Hunting TDA Marshall with CML x2 Command Squad is more than enough to deal with fliers


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Jacobite said:


> I think this is issue, not every army has got them yet and even some armies that have got flyers still don't have a decent anti-flyer that isn't a flyer itself if you know what I mean.


Until that is fixed, they can always grab a Aegis Defense Line for that backup anti-air


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Several reasons.

1. BS doesn't matter. BS2 is just as good at hitting flyers as BS9. That means that previously effective units (Devs) are now less good compared to things like Lootas or IG HWTs. This unbalances the game in favour of low-BS high-volume firepower, especially when twin linked because in most books such firepower was balanced against each other. For example, completely hypothetically, a BS4 Missile Launcher was worth 20pts, and a BS2 Missile Launcher was worth 10pts. Against Flyers, you're far better taking two BS2 Launchers and getting double the shots.

2. They can often mean that there is only one or two units on the table that can effectively engage them - leaving the rest of the army in the cold if there is nothing but Flyers on the table. For example, if I have 10 Lootaz and 60 Boyz, 2 Trukks, a Battlewagon with some Nobz in it, and a unit of Killa Kanz, and I play against someone with almost his whole army in Flyers, I only have one unit that can actually have a meaningful effect on the game. This is boring and not-fun for me. It also means he only has to kill that one unit in order to fly around completely uncontested.

3. It reduces army choice. Because Flyers are such a powerful force, you MUST take them into account when writing a competitive army list. To do this, you MUST take at least one, if not more, of the following options:

A. A Quad Gun
B. Your own Flyer with anti-Flyer capable weapons
C. Your own ground unit with effective anti-flyer capability

For reasons best known to themselves, GW has yet to really print any unit that fits into catagory C in a new codex. The three most dominant flyers are AV12, AV12 and AV11. GW seems to think that single-shot S7 weapons are a good answer to that. Such a good answer, in fact, that they want you to pay 10pts per missile launcher in order to gain access to it. Hence we have the extremely laughable Flakk-Walker from the Eldar codex which clocks in at about 100pts for two S7 shots on an AV10 Open Topped 2HP platform.

When a Heldrake costs 170pts. Uh-huh.

Realistically this means that every single army has a Quad Gun, and probably their own flyers as well. Which is boring.

4. Finally, some of them are just damn overpowered for their points. I'd call Scythes, Drakes and Vendettas such. Different reasons for each one, but mainly the firepower they put out, the movement speed they have, and their survivability means every army that has access to them, should probably take them in spades. And overpowered units are never popular.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Nordicus said:


> Until that is fixed, they can always grab a Aegis Defense Line for that backup anti-air


They can yes but since there is only one mini for it and it's Imperial centric I imagine this puts some people if using it.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Jacobite said:


> They can yes but since there is only one mini for it and it's Imperial centric I imagine this puts some people if using it.


There's also a Necron themed one, that is available:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/cyborg-defense-line

Oh and a Chaos one:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/fortifications/chaos-defense-line


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I just think fliers are boring and look stupid (who the fuck has ever seen a fighter flying 6" off a battlefiled making 90 degree turns on the spot?) and turn players into massive cock headed retards

"OHMAHGERD FLIERS!!!!!, I NEED FLEYERS, DO YOU HAZ FLIRS, OHMAHGERD YOU NO HAZ FLYIRS YOU SUCK, EVERYONE SOOK YOU MUST HAVE FLIYIRERS YOU NOOOOOOOOOOB!!!!!!!!!"

And the amount of bitching flier heavy players do when you tell them "no you cannot fly into that cave stop being dumb"
"OHMAGERD YOU SOOOO STIPUD, FLIVVER GO CAVE ZOOM ZOOMS"


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

dkoz said:


> ... can some one explain it to me?


Reading through the thread, no I don't see any rational reason for any of the hate, beyond an inability to adapt and wait for the update cycle to be complete and everyone brought up to speed.

If you don't want to wait for the update then I suggest looking to Forgeworld which have flyers and anti-flyers in abundance.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Yeah FW is a very viable solution "hey I just got my £90 afterVATandP+P hydra in the post, awesome......oh...the cheap PVC resin barrels are warped into more knots than my pubic hair...fuck"


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Of course WANTING to find a solution is a pretty important first step.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I get the feeling that Stella doesn't like flyers :grin:

To be fair I was not too keen on them when they were first introduced, but since I get to use dakka jets in my ork army I find them pretty funny to use. A few times they have wiped out squads of eldar during a waagh.


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## DaiKaiju (Aug 8, 2012)

Stella Cadente said:


> Yeah FW is a very viable solution "hey I just got my £90 afterVATandP+P hydra in the post, awesome......oh...the cheap PVC resin barrels are warped into more knots than my pubic hair...fuck"


I agree with this, and Stella's last post, for points made by Sethis


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Some good reasons for not liking flyers have been posted. I think I'll reserve judgement until the various factions have caught up when it comes to effective anti air, but I do think it's an interesting point that BS is taken out of the equation when trying to shoot down a flyer without skyfire. Maybe a -2 penalty to BS would have made more sense, since that would mean BS4 has a better chance to hit that BS2 and 3. Space Marines hitting a flyer on a 5+ doesn't seem so bad when the flyer is (presumably) flying low over then battlefield to shoot things

I just want a balanced game where specific units aren't way more effective than others, and there's no such thing as auto include units beyond basic troops


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

humakt said:


> I get the feeling that Stella doesn't like flyers :grin:


Damn straight, and I fucking despise these high horse high and mighty holier than though players who sit on their saddle just blaming YOU, the player who refuses to adapt, the whiner, the moaner "oh you can just do this, oh you can just do that, oh you can just wait for this, oh you can spend money on that"
FUCK...THAT...SHIT.

why should I have to spend MY money to counter fliers?, the issue I have with fliers is that they make no sense, GW has handled fliers poorly, the rules are dumb for them and make no sense, ok hovering fliers I can live with, they hover, cool, but WTF is up with these stupid fighters and bombers that fly around like they are playing Snake on the phone?, it looks silly and ruins the look and feel of the game.

Other rule systems handle fliers like a piece of piss, they come on, do a strafe/bomb run, then leave, giving you the chance to shoot them (which I believe were pretty much the old flier rules from FW).

Fliers are dumb, I don't want to hear this bullshit about being butthurt, or this bullshit about not adapting, fliers do not work how fliers work, it looks dumb and only appeals to the children.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Stella Cadente said:


> I just think fliers are boring and look stupid (who the fuck has ever seen a fighter flying 6" off a battlefiled making 90 degree turns on the spot?) and turn players into massive cock headed retards


While I agree with that last statement (the one about people being dick heads) wholeheartedly, some of the fliers aren't really fighters. The Imperial Guard Fliers, the Vendetta and Valkyrie, are VTOL aircraft, so they could fly in place and make sharp turns. Same goes with the Space Marine Storm Talon and (maybe) the Helchicken. Now, the Eldar, Tau, Ork, Necron, and the other Space Marine fliers look like they actually are planes and shouldn't really do that.

I like the idea of fliers, they add something to the game, just like random psychic powers, warlord traits and battlefield conditions/terrain. Hopefully other races get AA units or abilities (similar to the Imperial Guard's Hydra) to help them at some point, just to make things fair.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I just love the extra dimension fliers brings to the game. I'll be getting a pair to each my armies as soon time and money is at hand. For now enemy fliers are a fat pain in the ass cause I have no viable mean of taking them down atleast not AV11+.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I like the idea of flyers but I don't think they are any good unless it has AV 12, at which point they become tough as hell because of the lack of volume str8+ AA. I find that av11 just gets intercepted far too easily, even with a quad gun you will more than likely only have a hull point left by the time you get to shoot if that. I find the movement of flyers restrictive as well, the dakka jet is a good flyer if it could turn more, but after the first turn or two it's one the board it starts having to go off the board, where it can be intercepted again. The reason the hell drake is so good is that it never has to evade and has 360 fire, the others are generally too restricted or weak to do anything meaningful consistently


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

Seems like somebody missed their nap today. I get the frustration but not the unbecoming posts. The fact of the matter is, GW introduced a very exploitable unit type. I can see why some people hate them and others love them. Many veterans had their army running exactly like they wanted. Now they have to buy new models to combat the change. This in addition to other changes may have crippled their army altogether. Somebody droning on about adapting doesn't help. That said, Flyers are here to stay and it is up to each player how they deal with this. I enjoy them but use them fairly; never in small games or against new players or those I know dislike them. My lists can be competitive with or without. One solution to Flyers that I find overlooked is Random Objectives. Everyone seems to universally hate this rule. But it is the only thing that saved my opponent in my last The Scouring game. Sure it's frustrating to lose my Flyers because he rolled 3 Skyfire Nexus results. But that's the game and it's a free option to play with.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Squire said:


> Some good reasons for not liking flyers have been posted. I think I'll reserve judgement until the various factions have caught up when it comes to effective anti air, but I do think it's an interesting point that BS is taken out of the equation when trying to shoot down a flyer without skyfire. Maybe a -2 penalty to BS would have made more sense, since that would mean BS4 has a better chance to hit that BS2 and 3. Space Marines hitting a flyer on a 5+ doesn't seem so bad when the flyer is (presumably) flying low over then battlefield to shoot things
> 
> I just want a balanced game where specific units aren't way more effective than others, and there's no such thing as auto include units beyond basic troops


I first thought of something like this as well when I first read the rules for shooting at fliers but now I would rather have a few options that could target fliers leaving anything else useless. Like Interceptor would be able to fire at fliers with reduced BS and Skyfire at whole BS. Then make it quite common but it would take away the chance of boys with sluggas downing a Crimson Hunter or the like.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Nordicus said:


> There's also a Necron themed one, that is available:
> http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/cyborg-defense-line
> 
> Oh and a Chaos one:
> http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/fortifications/chaos-defense-line


They aren't GW made though and as such a lot of people will NOT touch them. Which is a pity.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Nordicus said:


> There's also a Necron themed one, that is available:
> http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/cyborg-defense-line
> 
> Oh and a Chaos one:
> http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/fortif...s-defense-line


Another thing that was passed around a while ago were these excellent resin substitutes.

http://www.mrdandy.com/wargamma-linked-barricades/

Orks

















Eldar

















Chaos

















Tau

















Necron

















Tyranid

















EDIT: The pictures won't show for some reason. Just right click the broken picture icon and select 'Open in new tab' to see them


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't hate flyers, I hate flyer spam, At this stage of the game a fair few armies have little effective antiflyer firepower even the new books have little in the way of a hard counter other than the already mentioned substandard new releases.
I recently faced Necrons, a difficult match up at the best of times made even harder when my opponent starts pulling out flyers like rhino's in a mobile marine army all full of warriors that can teleport with hardly any detrimental effect, needless to say the game was over quickly. The anti air I had could never even compete and has made 40k into a game more like yugioh where the person that spends the most usually wins which is my biggest problem with GW new buisness model as a whole rather than just hating fliers.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Here I am running five flyers in a 2000 point list... I feel like such a cunt right now. 

In response to Stella complaining about spending money to counter flyers. People have to spend money on the flyers in the first place and when you first start you had to buy your army, yeah? When people are buying brand new armies in future, flyers will just be another one of those things to take into account when buying models. Imagine if tanks were never around and then one day: BAM! Tanks. 

"Why should I have to spend money on new models which can counter tanks!? My bolters should be able to do that!" 

No. Fuck that. On top of the plain fact that new aspects of the game means spending more money, flyers or not, GW is a business which wants to encourage purchasing new things. Why would they listen to the business model which states "Release new stuff which can be countered by everything which nobody will want to buy and nobody will need to purchase new stuff to counter"? Terrible business model in my eyes.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

In addition, consider that the flight paths of these flyers might not be exactly the same as is represented in game but rather a far simpler, yet close enough, system to keep the game flow fairly smooth. You need a bit of imagination. Also, who's to say that pilots can't pull of trick maneuvers in their aeroplanes? Back flips, tight curves, barrel rolls and the likes? 

I drew a shitty little picture in paint to somewhat illustrate my point. The red lines are 'in-game' flight paths, when orange is the flight path it really represents which surely anybody with a little bit of imagination can picture. These planes are low-flying air-to-ground war vehicles. They're not gonna casually take a leisure glide over the battle field and just sight-see. They'll be weaving and out of the carnage of fire coming from the ground, whether that's stray shots, massed small-arms fire or concentrate AA batteries. Flyers glide lower than some of the GW building tops (Like the Fortress of Redemption).


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## DaiKaiju (Aug 8, 2012)

Silens said:


> "Why should I have to spend money on new models which can counter tanks!? My bolters should be able to do that!"


Well not bolters, but standard issue missile launcher can be put to good use.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

DaiKaiju said:


> Well not bolters, but standard issue missile launcher can be put to good use.


Maybe with the new Space Marine codex we'll see the missile launchers being far more effective against flyers.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Silens said:


> Maybe with the new Space Marine codex we'll see the missile launchers being far more effective against flyers.


Not unless they radically rethink Flakk. As in, make them cost nothing (all MLs have them for free) and then errata every other codex to be able to do the same.

As it stands, you'll be paying 180pts per Dev squad with Flakks (10pts more than a Heldrake) and you only average a single pen/glance against AV12 if they choose not to jink or have an invul, in which case you average 0.66 glances/pens per squad shooting at them.

And that's shite.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Because the Heldrake deserves hate. It is criminally, _criminally_ undercosted.

Midnight


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I thought it was just because it looks shit?


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

I think it's just human nature, but from a mixture of angles. Habitually, we are adverse to change, which is why bittervets exist; they think it could never be any better than "back in the day". The second part, which adds into the bittervet, is jealousy. People without fliers or anti-flier capability feel robbed, and the bittervets pretend everything was much better "in their day" to exclude the newcomers and give themselves a feeling of importance and self-assigned worth. 

As you can perhaps tell, I think the whole "bittervet" thing is utterly childish. A film equivalent might be people saying Prometheus wasn't just worse than Alien, because they grew up with it "back in the day", but that it was a terrible film. Of course it wasn't. If you watched it without having seen Alien, but knowing of it and some of the background, you'd like it. Even if you had seen the previous films, but weren't so deeply ingrained with backward self-importance and an unhealthy streak of jealousy, you would like it. The same is true of fliers; people think that it's some "new GW fad" to get people to spend money, and that "back in the day" it was all about the hobbyist, and money was a secondary concern. Of course it wasn't, GW has been a business since day one. You can clutch your old pewter models all you like, but the simple fact is that you were enticed into buying into the hobby, just like somebody picking up a flier today. The only difference is that the newcomer hasn't (yet) acquired your blinkered, unsavoury bitterness about how changed everything is, and how it was all fairies and daisies "back in the day".

Just had to get that off my chest!


@ Stella: Your swear-collection is surely very impressive, but perhaps you might be a little less generous with them? Younger people do read these forums, and your point is better made if you can articulate yourself instead of over-reliance on swears. That way, when you *do* swear, it might actually mean something.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Stella Cadente said:


> Damn straight, and I fucking despise these high horse high and mighty holier than though players who sit on their saddle just blaming YOU, the player who refuses to adapt, the whiner, the moaner "oh you can just do this, oh you can just do that, oh you can just wait for this, oh you can spend money on that"
> FUCK...THAT...SHIT.
> 
> why should I have to spend MY money to counter fliers?, the issue I have with fliers is that they make no sense, GW has handled fliers poorly, the rules are dumb for them and make no sense, ok hovering fliers I can live with, they hover, cool, but WTF is up with these stupid fighters and bombers that fly around like they are playing Snake on the phone?, it looks silly and ruins the look and feel of the game.
> ...


OK Stella can you show us on this doll exactly where the flyer touched you?

IMO 40K needed units that could perform real hit and run attacks. To me the current units all feel the same.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

A) It's not just vets complaining but thanks for making such a sweeping generalistion at all the memebers of the hobby who have been in it for years and have a wealth of knowledge om the many facets of the game. 

B) Promethus was a fucking terrible film and that had nothing to do with it's links to Alien; it had to do with the pants on head retarded decisions of the vast majority of the characters who showed all the self preservation instincts of a group of sucidal lemmings on a motorcycle ride along the cliffs of Dover. 

C) Players of forces who don't have flyers are not without reason to feel "robbed". Certain forces (and remember this is coming from a marine player) have been given flyers (both rules and minis) out of release schedule while other forces have not. Some armies have been given decent AA protection in their releases and others have not, and honestly with the release of 6th edition just how hard would it have been to give all missile launchers "skyfire"? That's 7 little letters added to the rule book, that would have I think, provided a large number of forces with the ability to attempt to counter flyers. Now I realise that GW is always going to give SM's some loving immediatly if they expand a new area of the rules however it's been how long since 6th dropped and we are yet to a true Nid flyer (no winged tyrants don't count), or SOB? That's not me being a bitter vet (I have 3 marines forces, would never collect Nids and I've played 2 games in the last 10 years and couldn't give a fuck if the tournie scene existed or not), that's me simply looking at the current range and going "this is obviously unbalanced". 

D) As for swearing.... You read the quote box at all?

It's going to be very interesting to see what this new SM AA tank is like and whether it is capable of clearing the skies in a single turn.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> It's going to be very interesting to see what this new SM AA tank is like and whether it is capable of clearing the skies in a single turn.


Funny thing that, first if it does that it will just give more fuel to the 'Marines' get everything camp. Even though people want something to seriously deal with Flyers. And second people will just complain how the previous 6th ed codexes didn't get some AA that is just as good. Then if the SM AA is that good, people will just complain that their flyers aren't that good.

It's a funny cycle.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> A) It's not just vets complaining but thanks for making such a sweeping generalistion at all the memebers of the hobby who have been in it for years and have a wealth of knowledge om the many facets of the game.
> 
> B) Promethus was a fucking terrible film and that had nothing to do with it's links to Alien; it had to do with the pants on head retarded decisions of the vast majority of the characters who showed all the self preservation instincts of a group of sucidal lemmings on a motorcycle ride along the cliffs of Dover.
> 
> ...


So if skyfire to missiles is all that it would take to make you happy why not put the money on free parking and do it yourself.

If all you care about is casual play. and your opponent is in agreement do it and see what happens.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

While it may not be a perfect solution to the problem it's better than the inaction that seemed to be the way GW handled it when 6th was released.

And you'll notice I said "attempt to counter", not simply "counter", I'm not making out that givng sky-fire to missile launcher's for free system wide is the solution to the problem, apologies if you got that impression I'm saying that it's at least better than doing what was done... which, I do believe, was sweet FA.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Still waiting for my plastic hydra GW, but yah know no rush, its not like the game has fliers yet........


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

But don't all armies have a flyer or FMC now? As weren't all the marines dexes given the stormraven/talon? Apart from SoB of course but they aren't quite marines. Granted some of those are crap like the DA ones, I personally don't see a problem with them as its not like the sole purpose of an aegis line is for AA, granted that might be the reason you bought it, but it certainly provides a good fortified position behind which you can stick a relatively weak troops an go to ground with another unit on the gun. The only problems I can see with flyers is flyer spam ( which you only really get at tournies and is rare in friendlies unless it is at a FLGS and the player is a douche) and the Helldrake which everyone complains about anyway. Also Can someone also clarify tau AA for me, as it seems pretty good when they can give it to suits and marker lights effect snap shots etc.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

falcoso said:


> But don't all armies have a flyer or FMC now? As weren't all the marines dexes given the stormraven/talon? Apart from SoB of course but they aren't quite marines. Granted some of those are crap like the DA ones, I personally don't see a problem with them as its not like the sole purpose of an aegis line is for AA, granted that might be the reason you bought it, but it certainly provides a good fortified position behind which you can stick a relatively weak troops an go to ground with another unit on the gun. The only problems I can see with flyers is flyer spam ( which you only really get at tournies and is rare in friendlies unless it is at a FLGS and the player is a douche) and the Helldrake which everyone complains about anyway. Also Can someone also clarify tau AA for me, as it seems pretty good when they can give it to suits and marker lights effect snap shots etc.


Yup apart of SoB and Space Wolves every other army has Flyers / FMCs. And yes the problem isn't flyers, it flyer spam. If you can't deal with 1 or 2 Flyers then I am sorry you are just bad at the game. If you think they ruin the game, then go play 5th ed and stay away from the rest of us who don't mind.

As for Tau AA, it is ridiculous, Boardsides with the Skyfire System (forget it's name atm) and Missiles will swat flyers out of the air all day like it is nothing. Even without the system, marker lights improving sap shots still make it much easier for Tau do deal with Flyers then any other army.


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## SvenONE (Jun 14, 2013)

I feel like they had to know some flyers would be so prevalent. I don't know why they just didn't adjust the FOC to have a special flier slot. I mean fast attack makes sense for flyers, but when it contains jump troops or bike troops, it becomes sort of a "which of these is not like the other".

Two things I see about flyers:

1) Games with fliers just seem to be less fun for people overall. They pretty much seem like WAAC units.

2) I've seen plenty of games go in favor of the non-flyer fielding player due to the fact the flyer fielding player has no scoring units left on the board (at least in non purge games).


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I love that flyers are in the game, but I don't think that GW had any real plan on how to deal with them in a balanced way

The issue remains that some armies just cant deal with them. Tyranids spring to mind. A flyrant is the only real option. Massed fire from a dakka fex or hive guard if desperate can maybe glance the bad ones away but they won't stop a pair or more of Drakes. The real problem is the 2k barrier where the skies can be alive.

The other key problem is just quality and role of flyers. Some armies take flyers just to hunt other flyers (Crimson hunter, Possibly the vendetta) Some are just plain awful (Hemlock, Tau skyboats, Dark Angels) and yet other can be dominant (Heldrake, Cron air fleet). 

You have to look to FW for decent flyers, including the iconic and fluffy ones. Look how big the FW Eldar, Imperial navy and Tau fleets are. I think thats what people wanted not the random cruddy oh what random plastic can we put together that happened for a couple of releases

And as for players not taking flyers having more troops, can't see this against a foe with total air supremacy. I think most armies are written now with a flyer tax of at least 2 planes.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> Can someone also clarify tau AA for me, as it seems pretty good when they can give it to suits and marker lights effect snap shots etc.


They get the Puretide Engram Chip on their Commanders, which gives his unit a special rule for the turn or shooting phase in lieu of his own shooting, one of which is Skyfire, I believe, and he has another piece of wargear that grants Interceptor. Markerlights do, of course, help with their AA, but the fact that Broadsides can take Str8 AP1 Skyfire shots makes them exceptional AA in the current game.



Da Joka said:


> Yup apart of SoB and Space Wolves every other army has Flyers / FMCs. And yes the problem isn't flyers, it flyer spam. If you can't deal with 1 or 2 Flyers then I am sorry you are just bad at the game. If you think they ruin the game, then go play 5th ed and stay away from the rest of us who don't mind.


Actually, 2 Heldrakes running round the field is kind of a huge deal. They require an inordinate amount of AA to dislodge, being essentially immune to anything with strength lower than 8 and AP 3 or higher, and being immune to most of the flyer-based penalties. 360 degree LOS with a Torrent gun means they never, ever have to leave the board, and AV12 negates the most common AA fire (which is of course the Autocannon template in it's various forms across the codices), it's got a permanent Jink+, and ignores 4/6 of the damage chart. Most flyers are perfectly fine - the Dakkajet, the Scythes, the Stormraven (it's one of the stronger ones, but that's balanced by it's points cost and it's requirement to actually abide by the Flyer rules like movement restrictions).

Midnight


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> They get the Puretide Engram Chip on their Commanders, which gives his unit a special rule for the turn or shooting phase in lieu of his own shooting, one of which is Skyfire, I believe, and he has another piece of wargear that grants Interceptor. Markerlights do, of course, help with their AA, but the fact that Broadsides can take Str8 AP1 Skyfire shots makes them exceptional AA in the current game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But they still have to move their minimum inches correct? A good play could probably make a plan that exploits that.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Chaos tactics with Heldrakes are point it at anything with out a 2+ save, WIN

Seriously with the flamer there is nothing they really fear moving towards. Even an AA unit will struggle to get past all its saves.

Theres no tactical subtly with Heldrakes, all they do is kill shizzilel. No fancy manoeuvres needed, no drifting lazily to the left, 360 template torrent means theres no escaping this evil predacon


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Actually, 2 Heldrakes running round the field is kind of a huge deal


You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves, sure they have vector strike, but that's about the same as a Quadgun, and no one seems to think that fixes flyer problem, so why should vector strike? 

The fact is with every Codex that comes out, Flyers lose more and more of their "OP" edge, Soon they will be just another unit.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> But they still have to move their minimum inches correct? A good play could probably make a plan that exploits that.


Such as? 'Oh no, my enemy has to be maneuverable!'

You can't get them away from what you want them to kill as they have range 20" on the Baleflamer, but only have to move 18". They are pretty much the only flyer that can seriously dent something in two consecutive turns.



Da Joka said:


> You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves,


And they also don't give a shit. Flyers can't score, but Troops can, and unless you're playing a serious horde list or Deathwing, Heldrakes are going to clean your Troops off the board in two turns, no questions asked.

Midnight


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Such as? 'Oh no, my enemy has to be maneuverable!'
> 
> You can't get them away from what you want them to kill as they have range 20" on the Baleflamer, but only have to move 18". They are pretty much the only flyer that can seriously dent something in two consecutive turns.
> 
> ...


According to the rule book a zooming flyer can only pivot 90*
When they enter combat they can only face directions that won't take them off the board.

Correct me if I am wrong but they can only come in at turn 2 correct?

If I'm willing to sacrifice part of my army to create a juicy target I can narrow down the possible areas a flyer would enter.

Get what I am saying? Fight the enemy where they are not.


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## SSG.House (Jul 29, 2013)

I have not yet played 5th or 6th edition. Im still building my Grey Knight army. 
So this is just my opinion....and opinions are like assholes, and they all stink.

I think fliers are a great concept. It does add another dimension to the battle field.
It gives the commander an extra element and tool at their disposal.

That said..... My wallet is angry. My wife will be angry. 
Sure its an awesome concept and brings new challenges...but....I just bought 40 Grey Knights, 15 GK Termies, 2 NDK, and 2 DNs and Inq. Coteaz. I have yet to purchase Rhinos, or Landraiders etc, let alone the paints! 

For the love of the Emperor....my pocket book needs some protection lol


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Do people typically use the page 72 ruling of firing arcs of hull mounted weapons where it is 22.5 degrees down from the weapon mount? I know some overlook it, but I don't see any way to bypass it looking at the rules, assuming it is hull mounted.

That is another weakness of flyers.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

That would give the Hemlock fighter an engagement envelope of only 6" on it's heavy D weapons and make Rapid Fire a pretty rare occurrence for the Storm Raven Hurricane Bolter.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> The fact is with every Codex that comes out, Flyers lose more and more of their "OP" edge, Soon they will be just another unit.


You say that, but the only "Good" anti-air unit to be released in a 6th Ed codex is Broadsides with an attached commander. Crimson Hunters are playable, but not "good" as they rely on too many things to succeed (coming on second, enemy has no Skyfire of any kind available, Guide near-mandatory to cause reliable damage).

So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.


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## SvenONE (Jun 14, 2013)

Sethis said:


> So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.


Yeah the DA flyers aren't the worst things in the world on paper, they look worse mainly because how good other flyers are.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Sethis said:


> So out of Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar, we have one playable unit and one good unit in the "Anti-Air" category. That hardly solves the problem of Scythes, Vendettas and Heldrakes.


Chaos has plenty of options for Anti-air to my knowledge. Off the top of my head, one can bring:

- Aegis defense line
- Daemon prince with Wings
- Defiler
- Havocs
- Heldrake (Yeah ok, but it IS possible)

That seems like a fair amount of choices for one army at least.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Suijin said:


> Do people typically use the page 72 ruling of firing arcs of hull mounted weapons where it is 22.5 degrees down from the weapon mount? I know some overlook it, but I don't see any way to bypass it looking at the rules, assuming it is hull mounted.
> 
> That is another weakness of flyers.


That is interesting indeed


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> You are right, Heldrakes are a huge threat. The one thing about them is if they have the flamer, they are poor at killing other flyers themselves, sure they have vector strike, but that's about the same as a Quadgun, and no one seems to think that fixes flyer problem, so why should vector strike?


Strength 7 is perfectly fine against most flyers, it's just when you get AV12 that it becomes an issue but your right vector strike won't do much to dent another flyer. The only consistent way I find to deal with a drake is get at its rear, which for most armies are pretty hard but cron barges can get there quite easily and has taken it down in most the games I have played against one by turn 3, (after a chunk of my army dies I should add).

It can be very hard to out manoeuvre a drake, it really doesn't matter that it has to move 18" as it has a total range of 18" anyway with a 360 fire arc.

Since the drake was released the only flyer which seems to have any worth is the is hemlock and even then if it fails to do anything the turn it comes in it dies.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> Chaos has plenty of options for Anti-air to my knowledge. Off the top of my head, one can bring:
> 
> - Aegis defense line


So you're saying it's perfectly fine that the ADL is pretty much mandatory to include in your army unless you're playing Tau/Tyranids? Even so, the quad gun isn't hard to kill especially when you can only bring 1, unlike flyers.



Nordicus said:


> - Daemon prince with Wings


Daemon Princes are expensive (much more so than any flyer), frail and only strenght 6. They are hardly capable at AA duty unless you are never playing against the AV 12 flyers. Even so, they are still not cost-efficient.



Nordicus said:


> - Defiler


Uhmm...what? How is the defiler in any way an AA platform? If you are talking about the Soul Grinder, yes it has a VERY MODEST anti air capability, but it's not good at it.



Nordicus said:


> - Havocs


Havocs are also not very good AA support. They are, like the daemon prince, expensive (if given flakk missiles), frail and still considerably worse than a Quad gun. Again, these are only really a threat to AV 11 or less flyers and not cheap enough to make them worthwhile at even that.



Nordicus said:


> - Heldrake (Yeah ok, but it IS possible)


Actually, the Hellturkey is the only worthwhile AA option chaos has been given. Ironic, since that is hardly what you include it for. But it has almost everything required: It's tough, automatically hits flyers, ignores their cover saves and also isn't forced to spent all game chasing flyers so even though it isn't cheap it still has a huge impact on the board while providing some decent AA defense.

So in actuality, the only really useful Aa chaos has at it's disposal is heldrakes....often in multiples. 
Flyers are a decent addition to 40k, but their introduction to the system is completely devoid of any sense of balance.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

For me, 40K is not a mass battle game, it is a skirmish game. Certainly for old boys like me, this is how it was back in the day.
Flyers don't fit into that and disrupt the balance and this has seriously put me off the system to the point I have barely touched my models since 6th edition.
Lets face it, if 50 guys are shooting at each other, with a bit of armour in support, and then your air force turns up and the others don't - you are going to win. Flyers will never fit the scale for 40k unless your playing at least 5k games a side.
However they sell well....so they are here to stay, and those that dont want to adapt to it, will have to go play elsewhere - thankfully plenty of choice nowadays!


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

slaaneshy said:


> For me, 40K is not a mass battle game, it is a skirmish game.


While I understand that sentiment, 40k has not been a skirmish game since 2ed. When they changed over to 3ed and standardized movement and removed most of the individual model level customization the whole nature of the game changed. Battles became larger overnight.

If flyers were what put you off the game in the changeover from 5ed to 6ed then the problem is probably not the scale of the game.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> While I understand that sentiment, 40k has not been a skirmish game since 2ed. When they changed over to 3ed and standardized movement and removed most of the individual model level customization the whole nature of the game changed. Battles became larger overnight.
> 
> If flyers were what put you off the game in the changeover from 5ed to 6ed then the problem is probably not the scale of the game.


I see what your saying, but I guess our perspectives differ over the term 'skirmish' so let me rephrase. Any engagement involving a few tanks and less than 100 guys a side is a minor encounter. If you call in the air support - you tip the balance and the dynamics and feel of the game change - at least they have for me. The size of a standard game of 40k does not support the inclusion of flyers in my view and has spoilt what was a very good rule set for minor engagements of armour and infantry.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

I can see the side arguing that this is a skirmish. In an all out war you might have hundreds, even thousands, of men charging into each other.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

And legions of tanks....


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

You can always simply not play flyers in your games.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You can always simply not play flyers in your games


That requires a level of understanding before hand and I know that most of the players in the club I go to have invested heavily into flyers and if I want a game I have to take that into account.
A few of the gamers refuse to play 6th so I can always play 5th but then when I have to play 6th I'm at a tactical disadvantage as I'm in the wrong mindset.
Flyers are here to stay mainly because they sell well and give the competative gamers with money to waste an advantage over less well off gamers, there are a few innefectual counters to flyer spam but for the most part 1 or 2 flyers can be handled without too much trouble depending on the army you choose after that the game gets so onesided it becomes relatively pointless.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

neilbatte said:


> That requires a level of understanding before hand


This. In the same way that attempting to use FW in casual pickup games normally results in bad games, attempting to persuade someone who is pro/anti flyers of the opposite opinion and to allow/disallow flyers in a casual game often leads to... disagreements. Depending on who you're talking to that can be anything from "Well, my list has 3 flyers I can't take out, so let's play other people" to "EHRMEHGERD YU SUCK! I R QUITTING!!"



neilbatte said:


> 1 or 2 flyers can be handled without too much trouble depending on the army you choose after that the game gets so onesided it becomes relatively pointless.


This. Once more creating a gulf between people who play casually and those who play competitively.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Silens said:


> I can see the side arguing that this is a skirmish. In an all out war you might have hundreds, even thousands, of men charging into each other.


Yeah, in the end, it's still a platoon sized game, for the most part. That's still a skirmish, really.

But it's really not even the size of the armies, it's the battlespace. Fliers, even most helicopters (since you don't just hover in place while engaging ground targets with anti-air capability), would be covering far more than the average table size in the space of seconds.


But, in the end, it's just the implementation that has put me off to fliers. They aren't very well balanced into the rules, and were introduced to haphazardly that some armies have really good models, and others don't.

Oh, and the Space Marine fliers are just ridiculously awful looking. :laugh:


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