# Space Wolves shrank from legion to chapter?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers) 
in 30k, they were a legion

they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
> in 30k, they were a legion
> 
> they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?


My guess would be because a large portion of the original legions were made up of stock from terra where as now the SW only get recruits from fenris. Replacing casualties would become slower. Wolves are still one of the bigger chapters though (not as big as black templars but they recruit from many planets.)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Wolves are still one of the bigger chapters though


in 40k, aren't chapters all roughly 1000 strong?
when people talk about how big the Ultramarines _chapter_ is, they're really referring the the UM and all their successors right?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

All chapters are roughly 1000. The Space Wolves Great Companies are about 120 strong and there's twelve of them so their closer to 1500. The Templars are several thousand strong, divided into many crusades. The Salamanders are smaller having smaller companies and less companies. 

As for the Space Wolves size they would have taken a lot of casualties during the heresy, fist against the thousand sons then the night lords and alpha legion (both of which ambushed the wolves at varying points in the Heresy) as well as casualties sustained during the scouring. 

Also perhaps there were some second founding chapters from the wolves we just don't have the records of it. 

Mainly though it's just one of those issues that popped up when the average legion size was set at 100,000 rather than 10,000. It really messes up a lot of other numbers and stuff.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes but wolves are around2000 and blacktemplars are around 5-6000


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

They had the Wolfbrothers. The were wiped out due to mutations.

Also keep in mind the Wolves were pretty beaten up and after taking out the TS. Plus the scouring.

And the Space Wolves are much bigger than a codex chapter. Each Great Company varies, but usually a number around 200 is given. So something around 2000-2500 wolves are around.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

There are a number of things you need to consider.

Going back to the Great Crusade, it's implied that the Wolves were involved in the sanction of at least one other legion prior to the Heresy, which means that, even by then, they were probably a below average sized legion because of the likely casualties sustained in an astartes vs astartes war.

Then came the Siege of Prospero, where the Wolves took significant casualties fighting the Sons. Then Russ still dispatched an entire Great Company to finish the job. Following that, they were ambushed by a numerically superior Alpha Legion and then had to return to Terra to help fight off the retreating traitors.

Then came the Scouring, where the majority of the loyalist legions who weren't already pretty much wiped out got brutalised retaking what was lost during the Heresy. So by then, they would have been drastically reduced from their original numbers.

And they did have one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, which basically comprised of half the forces of the Wolves that were left (including gear, armour etc). Unfortunately for them, the Wolf Brothers fell to mutation and had to be disbanded.

And the Wolves are still considerably larger than other chapters. If I remember correctly, by the end of _Battle of the Fang_, despite nearly an entire Great Company getting destroyed, the Wolves still numbered around 2000 warriors, twice as large as a normal chapter.

Edit: Damnit, ninja'd multiple times. Also to add, the Wolves can't have successors because their geneseed goes ape shit with mutation if they're away from Fenris.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

What i understand on numbers within Chapters is that not all chapters are equal in numbers.

In theory each chapter has 1,000+, but some are dying, some chapter are down to less than 100.

Post heresy each Legion that remained loyal were either eager or were forced to break up, some legions had 10's of thousands of Space Marines, but broke up to form many 1st & 2nd founding chapters.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.

By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Klaivex said:


> Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.
> 
> By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.


They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?

I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.

Really the size of Chapters has been the only part of the Codex that was ever rigorously enforced, the rest is more of a 'take it or leave it' matter.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> All chapters are roughly 1000. The Space Wolves Great Companies are about 120 strong and there's twelve of them so their closer to 1500.


if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?
> 
> I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.
> 
> Really the size of Chapters has been the only part of the Codex that was ever rigorously enforced, the rest is more of a 'take it or leave it' matter.


That would make sense but it still leaves seemingly a lot of marines uncounted for. If they did break up into two 1000 man strong chapters (three possibly based on the Aprocrypha of Skaros) then that would mean there were only about 2000-3000 space wolves left. I realise they did suffer quite a few casualties but were never describes as being almost wiped out like the raven guard and salamanders who had about 3000- 1000 astartes by the end of the heresy mostly because of the drop site massacre.

I guess its possible the Alpha legion did enough damage to them while staling them from reaching terra but still it seems like a low number to me.



MontytheMighty said:


> if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?


Forgive me if I am wrong but i think Ragnar had the largest company at about 200 men and then the others had around 150-ish.

150x12=1800+200=2000 give or take a few hear and there.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?


The numbers of each Great Company are fluid, currently the 2nd largest (Ragnars) stands at 200 warriors but for all that the others might only be slightly smaller than or, in some cases, half the size or less.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?


The end of _Battle of the Fang_ mentions that there are about 2000 warriors left after the invasion by the Sons. 



Most of a Great Company got wiped out and the other Companies likely sustained casualties fighting the mutated Wolf Brothers and then probably lost a few ships racing to reach Fenris.


So their numbers do seem to be between 2000 - 2500 around a 1000 years after the heresy, though their numbers might have changed in the following 9000 years.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> between 2000 - 2500


OK, now I'm wondering where the 120 number comes from (mentioned by Rems)



> Most of a Great Company got wiped out and the other Companies likely sustained casualties fighting the mutated Wolf Brothers and then probably lost a few ships racing to reach Fenris.


never knew that the two chapters fought


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Bear in mind that they also lost the entirety of the 13th Company when they went into the Eye.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?


Complete conjecture on my part, but I think that the Fists being fired on was a one-time thing. Once it came that close, I don't think anyone was interested in risking that kind of calamity again. Hence Dorn splitting the Legion to Chapters and sending off his hotheads with the forever-crusading Black Templars.



> I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.


Where does it say they built up their numbers, though? I have always been under the impression that they departed as they were--with extra numbers. 

Also: Chompy Bits, agreed 100%.

Cheers,
P.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?


The difference is, the fists bottled it and caved to the pressure, whereas we know the wolves will happily take on other imperial organisations. It's hinted in the codex that even the Inquisition and AdMech thread carefully around them. It's a moot point though, as they did split in the end.

As to their numbers, I think it's safe to say that when they split their post heresy numbers it was a 50/50 division. Considering their losses on Prospero, and then losing half of what was left to the failed Wolf Brothers, they weren't in great shape to start with. Considering their contempt for the codex as well, I think a figure of a couple of thousand, maybe a tad more, sounds about right. However, I don't think even Grimnar would be too sure of his chapters numbers. Great companies have been known to go missing for decades, or to disappear altogether.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The difference is, the fists bottled it and caved to the pressure, whereas we know the wolves will happily take on other imperial organisations. It's hinted in the codex that even the Inquisition and AdMech thread carefully around them. It's a moot point though, as they did split in the end.
> 
> As to their numbers, I think it's safe to say that when they split their post heresy numbers it was a 50/50 division. Considering their losses on Prospero, and then losing half of what was left to the failed Wolf Brothers, they weren't in great shape to start with. Considering their contempt for the codex as well, I think a figure of a couple of thousand, maybe a tad more, sounds about right. However, I don't think even Grimnar would be too sure of his chapters numbers. Great companies have been known to go missing for decades, or to disappear altogether.


Yeah, according to the SW Codex, the Inquisition can sniffing around Fenris for there "non-God Emperor" faith in other things (still following their faith in the God Emperor, just extra Space Wolves exclusive stuff) and once the Space Wolves told them to go piss off, the Inquisition wasn't welcome, the Inquisition came back with a small fleet and got their ass handed to them and eventually said "Okay, okay, this shit ain't worth it." and left them alone.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Yeah, according to the SW Codex, the Inquisition can sniffing around Fenris for there "non-God Emperor" faith in other things (still following their faith in the God Emperor, just extra Space Wolves exclusive stuff) and once the Space Wolves told them to go piss off, the Inquisition wasn't welcome, the Inquisition came back with a small fleet and got their ass handed to them and eventually said "Okay, okay, this shit ain't worth it." and left them alone.


But of course they'd have had the support of most of the Adeptus Astartes if things had soured further, in 30k they were up against the majority of the Astartes as well as the new Imperium.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Thinking back i read somewhere that didn't the Space Wolves suffer a partial mutiny when during a fight that some of it's members went over to Chaos and then began attacking their very own Wolf Brethren.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Thinking back i read somewhere that didn't the Space Wolves suffer a partial mutiny when during a fight that some of it's members went over to Chaos and then began attacking their very own Wolf Brethren.


That sounds like the stupid bit of fluff regarding Huron boarding a SW ship and some of the wolves changing sides because they were losing.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

so...what happened to the Wolf Brothers...were they just killed off as mutants or just allowed to die off?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> so...what happened to the Wolf Brothers...were they just killed off as mutants or just allowed to die off?


If you want to know more about the Wolf Brothers you should read _Battle of the Fang_. But I can give you the info if you want:



The Wolf Brothers were basically half the Space Wolves forces that survived the Scouring. They were given a new homeworld very similar to Fenris. Ufortunately, their geneseed (or at least the stability of the canis helix) seems to have some connection to Fenris, which resulted in the Wolf Brothers rapidly falling to mutation. It seems they were just allowed to die out as others lost contact with them. 

They are encountered again by the Wolves when Magnus tricked them into attacking a world they believed he was located on. The Wolf Brothers shown there were horribly mutated and ended up fighting the Space Wolves present. It was only news of the attack on Fenris which made the Wolves withdraw. I don't know how many Wolf Brothers were left at that point but if any are still around during the current timeline they are in all likelyhood a bunch of mutated monsters.


Hope that answers your question.


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## Gaius Marius (May 15, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> so...what happened to the Wolf Brothers...were they just killed off as mutants or just allowed to die off?


Wraight said later that some parts of the Wolf Brothers were still loyal and a few squads could still be kicking around.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> They had the Wolfbrothers. The were wiped out due to mutations.





MontytheMighty said:


> so...what happened to the Wolf Brothers...were they just killed off as mutants or just allowed to die off?





Chompy Bits said:


> If you want to know more about the Wolf Brothers you should read _Battle of the Fang_. But I can give you the info if you want:



I wanted to say, in the Iron Warriors Omnibus, there is a Red Corsair Wolfbrother who has no mutations, just feral behavior. The Wolf Brothers seem to fell to Chaos Renegades as well.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
> in 30k, they were a legion
> 
> they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Wolves

"The Legions were broken down into Chapters, an already extant Astartes military formation in some of the Legions that consisted of 1,000 Battle-Brothers of fighting strength. Never again would one man wield so much power over vast legions of superhuman troops at his command.

However, Leman Russ suffered no interference where his Legion was concerned, and flatly refused to listen to Guilliman. According to the Wolf Lord Bulveye of the Legion's 13th Great Company, Russ once dared strike the Emperor in person when He offered critiscism to Russ. What the volatile Primarch would not accept from his Father, he would certainly not tolerate from his brother. Only when the situation almost devolved into another Imperial civil war did Leman Russ seemingly relent. The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength. The Great Companies, however, already were semi-autonomous, each with their own armouries, starship support and answering to their Jarl or Wolf Lord only, with all of the Jarls answering only to Russ. In essence, Russ' acquiescence changed nothing in the modus operandi of the Space Wolves Legion save for its official table of organisation"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Wolves#.U19GlfmSx1Y

"The Space Wolves have a unique structure that is notably different from a standard Codex Chapter. Rather than 10 companies of 100 marines, the Space Wolves consist of 12 Great Companies of varying strengths. Each Great Company is based in the Fang, the Space Wolves Fortress-monastery and is led by a Wolf Lord,who answers only to the Great Wolf.[8e]
Each Great Company is a fully self-contained army, with all the troops, vehicles and equipment necessary to make war, as well as the spacecraft necessary to transport itself. They each have their own forges and customs. The size of each Great Company is unknown but the Space Wolves Legion is said to be one of the smaller Legions, due to the Curse of the Wulfen genetic instability within the Chapter gene-seed.[6a] As each Great Company serves as an independent army, they maintain a much greater number of troops as opposed to codex companies.[8e]"

I take from this that every great company was roughly 1000 marines in strenght in the beginning. ofcourse I cannot be sure if the wiki is correct or not since I am always hessistant about Wiki sources but this seems to coincide with my own vague memories.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ye olde fluff by the looks of it.

Guilliman as we know him now would not have fallen for Russ's ruse.
Russ would never even dream of going against his father in his current incarnation.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ye olde fluff by the looks of it.
> 
> Guilliman as we know him now would not have fallen for Russ's ruse.
> Russ would never even dream of going against his father in his current incarnation.


untill GW actively changes it or someone shows me more current fluf I am still gonna go with this as Canon


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Honestly, there are a number of in-universe reasons for how the Space Wolves' numbers shrinking, but *Rems* hit the nail on the head as to why the numbers shrunk _so dramatically._ Back when the Legions numbered 10,000 Space Marines, the Space Wolves lost "only" 7,500-8,000 warriors. That's still a hell of a lot more tenable than the idea that they lost *tens of thousands* of warriors, though. And that's precisely what changed when the Legions grew ten times larger.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought the Space Wolves was some place between 1200 Space Marines to 12.000 Space Marines. But I can be in error.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
> in 30k, they were a legion
> 
> they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?


Probably an internal purge or a as yet to be covered Space Wolves (Terran) v Space Wolves (Fenris) civil war.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I thought the Space Wolves was some place between 1200 Space Marines to 12.000 Space Marines. But I can be in error.


Space Wolves had 13 Great Companies. Each Great Company had more than 1000 space marines.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Haskanael said:


> untill GW actively changes it or someone shows me more current fluf I am still gonna go with this as Canon


None of it is canon. Since the Heresy series from FW and the BL novels has begun codifying, and putting information down "correctly", lots of information has been changed (such as the EC changing from 30 Lord Commanders to 2, Omegon, the rest of the Alpha Legion history being bollocks, etc) so it's safe to say anything NOT so far mentioned in the HH books isn't canon. It's essentially a new start.

IIRC, the Wolves were at 80K pre-Prospero, then the AL attack occured, then the scouring, then Russ took off with the 13th, and then the attacks on the 1K sons on fenris etc which would cause heavy losses etc.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Achaylus72 said:


> Space Wolves had 13 Great Companies. Each Great Company had more than 1000 space marines.


I thought the wording was has not had. Of course I can be in error.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I thought the wording was has not had. Of course I can be in error.


Had. They have a ring of twelve runestones with each captains sigil on in and the thirteenth is always blank.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tawa said:


> Had. They have a ring of twelve runestones with each captains sigil on in and the thirteenth is always blank.


I have heard about the ring my friend, but I'm very unsure what it has to do with the number-thingy other than confirming there are 13 Great Companies of course.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

I've just had a quick skim of the current puppy codex, but I can't find any reference to actual numbers. Could be down to each company being largely independent I suppose, but a rough idea would be nice


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The 13th don't really exist as Space Wolves any more. They are a nominal force, but they reside within the eye of Terror warped into Wulfen.

There are 13 nominally, but the 13th Company are as much Space Wolves as Brazen Claws these days.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tawa said:


> I've just had a quick skim of the current puppy codex, but I can't find any reference to actual numbers. Could be down to each company being largely independent I suppose, but a rough idea would be nice


The only number-thingy I can remember is that Ragnar has the second largest force of veterans numbering about 200 or it can be Logan that has that number. It's either or in this case.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

From reading this thread through I conclude three things. 
1) we know the wolves where around 2000 strong in the 31th millennia. 
2) their companies may be between 100-220, counting high. 
3) we acctualy don't know jug shit about the space wolves numbers in the 40th millennia.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Moriouce said:


> From reading this thread through I conclude three things.
> 3) we acctualy don't know jug shit about the space wolves numbers in the 40th millennia.


I guess that's the gist of it since the only number is the 200 veteran warriors I mentioned about Ragnar. The discussion tends to be if thats all or just the elite, as GW has left that one completely open for interpretation.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

When the XX legion laid hands on the SW they killed tens of thousands of them. Easy to believe a superior legion doing that to another. The Wolves got touched up.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Is there proof that they lost "tens of thousands"? Or are you just pulling that figure out of your sphincter?


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## LokiDeathclaw (Jun 19, 2013)

I started playing SW back in 2 ed and with new little bits of fluff being added over years it seems to suggest that the SW's were one of the smaller legions during the heresy (not as small as the 1k Sons or Salamanders) but due to Russ re organising the legion into Great Companies after the HH (roughly 1000 strong like a chapter) to avoid dissolving his legion. In 40k the numbers have become more obscure as time has gone on with GW not really clarifying numbers, but it has been repeatedly mentioned that they number the same or slightly less then the Black Templar's (thought to be around 4000). Most stuff I have read through the years put current Great Companies above 200 wolves......but with BL making the wolves more obscure and independent numbers could be higher then thought! I like to think so!!!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Is there proof that they lost "tens of thousands"? Or are you just pulling that figure out of your sphincter?


Considering that there probably were never tens of thousands of SWs to kill at any given point, I'm pretty sure he ripped that one out his shitter.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ye olde fluff by the looks of it.
> 
> Guilliman as we know him now would not have fallen for Russ's ruse.
> Russ would never even dream of going against his father in his current incarnation.


I've been surprised of late how many discussions here center around quoting Lexicanum or Wiki, but times change I suppose. I don't think it was a ruse that Russ pulled on Guilliman, although anyone on the outside might have been told or recorded such looking back; as you note the Big G was too smart for that kind of BS. I think Guilliman officially accepted Russ's proposal (and Dorn for the Black Templars for that matter), recognizing that's the most he could get out of them, neither Legion's remnants would betray the Imperium, and both Legions had such... focus(?) of purpose that the compromise all but met Guillimans goal of ensuring no single Legion/Chapter master could again single-handedly wield the might of an Astartes Legion.

If I remember correctly, in Wolves Honor, Bulveye was relating that Russ hit the Emperor after some extreme drinking and got cold cocked by his father for his trouble. I don't see any of the recent fluff on the HH changing that, considering it took place well before the times described in the HH novels.



Vaz said:


> The 13th don't really exist as Space Wolves any more. They are a nominal force, but they reside within the eye of Terror warped into Wulfen.
> 
> There are 13 nominally, but the 13th Company are as much Space Wolves as Brazen Claws these days.


Well, in Wolves Honor, there are a few of the 13th Company who have mutated into somewhat tame Wulfen, but most of the surviving 13th Company were still a functional fighting force, although less than Company strength and without stable supply/transport. After their time in the Warp, I think that's sayin' something.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I sort of assumed they lost most of their members against the Thousand Sons, you know the legion with the psykers, demons and such.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Moriouce said:


> From reading this thread through I conclude three things.
> 1) we know the wolves where around 2000 strong in the 31th millennia.
> 2) their companies may be between 100-220, counting high.
> 3) we acctualy don't know jug shit about the space wolves numbers in the 40th millennia.


Around 2,000 strong in the 31th millennium and unknown in 40th millennium? Most certainly not. Their numbers are approximately 2,000 _in the 40k_, and definitely had tens of thousand, or even more, in the Great Crusade~Horus Heresy era(30-31k). Though many sources are suggesting Wolves are one of the smaller(or at least not larger) Legion, they were doubtlessly bigger than TS, who only have about 9,000~12,000 strong(and around 10,000 is the most accurate number, I conjecture). If SW had only 2,000 strong during _Prospero Burns_, unequivocally they could not purge Prospero, exterminate one or two of other _Legions_, and almost driving Thousand Sons to the extinction and render them virtually incapacitated as a valid fighting force during the Heresy era even with assistance of the Sisters of Silence and Legio Custodes.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

According to Horus Heresy Books' timeline, extermination of at least one of the renegade Legions enacted _shortly before_ onset of Horus Heresy. And during the Heresy, they fought Thousands Sons and deamons on a Legion Homeworld, and then main fleet of the Alpha Legion(in the Scars), and after all of these incidents, they are planning to executing godhood-achieved Horus(In the Vengeful Spirit), and doubtlessly they would be _mauled_ by Warmaster's lot.

And after that, they fought the frontline of Great Scouring as one of more intact(or less devastated, if you want to speak) and dynamically active Legion, and after finishing Scouring they ceaselessly fought against all of imaginable foes of Imperium and humankind-remember, Russ was one of the most lingering Primarch after end of Heresy-.

Thus yes, I think it is completely unsurprising they reduced from a Legion to a Chapter.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The new SW codex has a breakdown of Ragnar's Great Company. Including himself there's 188 members. Ragnar, 6 WG, 50 BCs, 30 sky claws, 5 swift claws, 56 GHs, 20 scouts, 17 LFs and 3 lone wolves. It doesn't make any specific mention of his company being one of the bigger ones any more either, so could we use it as a (very) rough guide to the rest of the Companies?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The new SW codex has a breakdown of Ragnar's Great Company. Including himself there's 188 members. Ragnar, 6 WG, 50 BCs, 30 sky claws, 5 swift claws, 56 GHs, 20 scouts, 17 LFs and 3 lone wolves. It doesn't make any specific mention of his company being one of the bigger ones any more either, so could we use it as a (very) rough guide to the rest of the Companies?


I'm thinking we should probably decide what counts as source material before making any decisions on numbers.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Codex is canon, soooo I'm not sure what you mean?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Codex is canon, soooo I'm not sure what you mean?


The codex makes it a point to not give solid numbers for anything. Going by the codex the chapter could be anywhere from 800 to 4000 marines.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> The codex makes it a point to not give solid numbers for anything. Going by the codex the chapter could be anywhere from 800 to 4000 marines.


Sorry mate, but the codex makes a point of telling us _exactly_ how many marines are in Ragnar's company. 

As for what is canon, a codex trumps everything else in my opinion. 

If we do use Ragnar's numbers as a rough guide, and assume that the rest have similar numbers, that would give us a figure close to 2,200 before we add in all the priests.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would say that the Wolves and Black Templar are two chapters that work closely with the head of Terra. In fact it was mentioned in the Heresy that the Wolves only answered to Malcador and the Emperor. Would not be surprised for the Wolves and Black Templar being supported and protected by Inquisition and High Lords of Terra.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I would say that the Wolves and Black Templar are two chapters that work closely with the head of Terra. In fact it was mentioned in the Heresy that the Wolves only answered to Malcador and the Emperor. Would not be surprised for the Wolves and Black Templar being supported and protected by Inquisition and High Lords of Terra.


I can see that most of the inquisition would see the benefits to keeping the wolves on their good side.

The ones against them would be the radical faction.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I can see that most of the inquisition would see the benefits to keeping the wolves on their good side.
> 
> The ones against them would be the radical faction.


Human beings have a tendency of being hypocritical. I see even the most fanatical aspects of the Inquisition leaving exceptions. Thats why I believe there seems to be a lack of evidence about this category of information for a reason.

It seems to farfetched to believe the Wolves of Fenris turned to 1000-2000. The companies seemed to have their own culture and history and it just wouldn't seem right if they just vanished into thin air. The way I see it is that the Inquisition and some parts of the Imperium have their own agenda much like the Emperor did. It is more than likely that there is much the Emperor hid from the rest of the Imperium besides the Imperial Webway. As such, I believe forces like the Wolves and Templar have been allowed to operate beyond ordinary limits. 

I always thought chapters were insufficient based on the limits they could do. I mean 1000 marines, with lots of responsibilities, technical and management, and war, seems a bit to low. Obviously designed to limit. However it makes the force unreliable, and for that reason it doesn't seem realistic that the Imperial Leadership would paint everything in black and white. Sure, they make act like they do in order to make sure chapters and armies stay in line, but for the sake of effectiveness, especially during crusades and long campaigns... you get what I mean.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> Human beings have a tendency of being hypocritical. I see even the most fanatical aspects of the Inquisition leaving exceptions. Thats why I believe there seems to be a lack of evidence about this category of information for a reason.
> 
> It seems to farfetched to believe the Wolves of Fenris turned to 1000-2000. The companies seemed to have their own culture and history and it just wouldn't seem right if they just vanished into thin air. The way I see it is that the Inquisition and some parts of the Imperium have their own agenda much like the Emperor did. It is more than likely that there is much the Emperor hid from the rest of the Imperium besides the Imperial Webway. As such, I believe forces like the Wolves and Templar have been allowed to operate beyond ordinary limits.
> 
> I always thought chapters were insufficient based on the limits they could do. I mean 1000 marines, with lots of responsibilities, technical and management, and war, seems a bit to low. Obviously designed to limit. However it makes the force unreliable, and for that reason it doesn't seem realistic that the Imperial Leadership would paint everything in black and white. Sure, they make act like they do in order to make sure chapters and armies stay in line, but for the sake of effectiveness, especially during crusades and long campaigns... you get what I mean.


I think it's easier to interpret the codex saying that a chapter can not have more than a thousand marines meaning that at any one time it can only have 1000 marines combat ready.

Specialists such as librarians tech marines chaplains commanders and initiates are not included in that number.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I think it's easier to interpret the codex saying that a chapter can not have more than a thousand marines meaning that at any one time it can only have 1000 marines combat ready.
> 
> Specialists such as librarians tech marines chaplains commanders and initiates are not included in that number.


What does that mean to more complicated missions to the Imperium though? For example... look at the First War for Armageddon and please look at the numbers of Wolves and Grey Knights. Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists. Mine you, from what I remember the Wolves didn't even send their entire "chapter."


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists.


Couple points I'd like to make.

You're mixing up two events, The Dominion of Fire and the First War of Armageddon. DoF had 50,000 berserkers. Armageddon had an unspecified number of berserkers there.

Also remember that the Space Marines by no means shouldered most of the war. There were millions--possibly many hundreds of millions--of fighting men on Armageddon. The Space Marines, as is their modus operandi, concentrated their limited forces in the most critical of battlefields for greatest effect.

As Hyperion in _The Emperor's Gift_ thought, "The enemy host was forgotten. The devil-lords of the Cruor Praetoria – if any still walked among us – were ignored. They were lesser threats, relatively speaking, that lesser warriors could deal with. Angron. Lord of the Twelfth Legion. This was why we’d come."


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> What does that mean to more complicated missions to the Imperium though? For example... look at the First War for Armageddon and please look at the numbers of Wolves and Grey Knights. Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists. Mine you, from what I remember the Wolves didn't even send their entire "chapter."


How does that have to do with anything I said, the wolves don't follow the codex, they could have had 20 000 warriors there. I pointed out the 1000 marine limit could be mis interpreted.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists. Mine you, from what I remember the Wolves didn't even send their entire "chapter."


Unlike other entries in the timeline, it doesn't mention how many companies Grimnar brought to Armageddon. As hailene said, there were millions of IG and PDF there as well to do the heavy lifting, while the SWs concentrated their efforts on crucial points in the battle line.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I would say that the Wolves and Black Templar are two chapters that work closely with the head of Terra. In fact it was mentioned in the Heresy that the Wolves only answered to Malcador and the Emperor. Would not be surprised for the Wolves and Black Templar being supported and protected by Inquisition and High Lords of Terra.





Reaper45 said:


> I can see that most of the inquisition would see the benefits to keeping the wolves on their good side.
> 
> The ones against them would be the radical faction.


Conversely, I see both of these chapters as ones that don't work closely with the Council of Terra or the other higher authorities. In a classic 30k/40k turnaround, they have both gone from being perhaps the closest and most undoubtedly loyal of Legions, to being highly suspect. In the Crusade and Heresy days, the Wolves were Malcadors Legion it would seem, through him they and Russ it would seem, were almost beyond reproach of the others, for example, when Dorn ordered all Legions that were not his own off of Terra at the onset of the Heresy, he could not send the Wolves away as they answered to Malcador and not him. The Fists, were also obviously as close to Terra as any Legion could be, and worked closer than any other.

Switch to 40k, the Wolves don't answer to anybody seemingly, they utterly disregard the codex, they do as they choose and they don't give a damn about what the High Lords of the Inquisition want, the First War for Armageddon showcases this perfectly. It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over. The Templars are another, where as when they were part of the Imperial Fists, they were the praetorians of Terra, they now range away as far as they choose, with a chapter number that no body truly knows, and once again don't exactly follow the codex.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Conversely, I see both of these chapters as ones that don't work closely with the Council of Terra or the other higher authorities. In a classic 30k/40k turnaround, they have both gone from being perhaps the closest and most undoubtedly loyal of Legions, to being highly suspect. In the Crusade and Heresy days, the Wolves were Malcadors Legion it would seem, through him they and Russ it would seem, were almost beyond reproach of the others, for example, when Dorn ordered all Legions that were not his own off of Terra at the onset of the Heresy, he could not send the Wolves away as they answered to Malcador and not him. The Fists, were also obviously as close to Terra as any Legion could be, and worked closer than any other.
> 
> Switch to 40k, the Wolves don't answer to anybody seemingly, they utterly disregard the codex, they do as they choose and they don't give a damn about what the High Lords of the Inquisition want, the First War for Armageddon showcases this perfectly. It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over. The Templars are another, where as when they were part of the Imperial Fists, they were the praetorians of Terra, they now range away as far as they choose, with a chapter number that no body truly knows, and once again don't exactly follow the codex.


Keep in mind that Bjorn is still the moral compass of the chapter, he's one of the few that knows perfectly well what the imperium was like, and that the emperor would never stand for the inquisition's abuse of power or the eccesarcity's BS.

If anything they're the one chapter is is holding true to what the astartes once were, proud warriors who enjoyed life and knew how to have fun.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Actually Bjorn let the inq get away with it, but won the price of preventing a devastating civil war. Just read up about the First War of Armageddon and that aftermath. And even so the inq knows the SW are willing to start a civil war so its an example of cooler heads prevailing.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> How does that have to do with anything I said, the wolves don't follow the codex, they could have had 20 000 warriors there. I pointed out the 1000 marine limit could be mis interpreted.


Right on. It sounded like you thought it was concrete across the board.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over.


I'd say it was a bit more gradual than that. Russ was around for 200 years after the Heresy, during which time the High Lords and embryonic Ecclesiarchy would have taken firm control if the Imperium, but threaded softly around the primarchs, who could very well have collectively wrested control back if things didn't go too well. I think their disobedient streak would have risen concurrently with the rise of organised religion after the primarchs had all died or gone walkabout, especially as they had someone like Bjorn who fought for the ideals of the Great Crusade and knew it went against everything the Emperor stood for. Over the Millenia as the beaurocracy and religion took hold, the Wolves would become more inclined to say "You know what? Fuck you."


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh of course. I would love to see their relationship with the remaining Primarchs once Russ was gone.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh of course. I would love to see their relationship with the remaining Primarchs once Russ was gone.


Have we any idea in what order and over what time scale the remaining primarchs started heading for the hills, or dying? It would be interesting to see if the Khan, Russ, Corax and Vulkan all got it into their heads to go it alone in or around the same time.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Have we any idea in what order and over what time scale the remaining primarchs started heading for the hills, or dying? It would be interesting to see if the Khan, Russ, Corax and Vulkan all got it into their heads to go it alone in or around the same time.


It seemed like they felt they were helpless with a lot of the traitors going to the eye and not getting the justice they probably thought they deserved. 

Wasn't it the Khan that was stated to have gotten lost in the Webway running down Dark Eldar? I actually thought it was kind of sad to hear that something might have basically taken care of Russ when Magnus was talking about his where a bouts in _Battle of the Fang._ 

I think there was a story in the Daemon Codex of a great Ork Warlord and his band that got lost in the Eye of Terror and was basically fighting an eternal battle with the Armies of Khorne. I feel that may have resulted in many of the Primarch's fates.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

What I was wondering was more along the lines of did they all get the idea at the same time, as if a signal or something was sent out that only they could hear. The description of Russ in the codex would appear that way. "It is said that his eyes glazed over and he had the look of a man overcome with a vision." It would be nice to know if the others felt the same thing at the same time.

That would be a pretty badass quartet if they were all called to the same place.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How very Battlestar.

I doubt the gods would kill the loyalist Primarchs that entered the Eye. Instead preferring to keep them locked in but alive, tormenting them endlessly for their own amusement with the eventual goal of corrupting them too, much like Draigo.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> What I was wondering was more along the lines of did they all get the idea at the same time, as if a signal or something was sent out that only they could hear. The description of Russ in the codex would appear that way. "It is said that his eyes glazed over and he had the look of a man overcome with a vision." It would be nice to know if the others felt the same thing at the same time.
> 
> That would be a pretty badass quartet if they were all called to the same place.


It's an interesting thought. The Imperial Fists IA article says:



> Rogal Dorn outlived many of his brother Primarchs and each loss saddened him greatly. Also, as fewer Primarchs remained, each began to attract unhealthy respect. With the Emperor on Terra, some distant systems began to deify the Primarchs they encountered. To Dorn, only the Emperor was worthy of this attention and he feared the consequences. However, sacrifice came easily to Dorn... Soon after the disappearance of Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard, the Imperial Fists were asked to help against a Black Crusade bludgeoning its way through the Cadian Gate...


There is nothing that I am aware of to suggest the Primarchs all vanished at roughly the same time or at the behest of some kind of signal or calling. Those that willingly disappeared (Russ, Corax and Vulkan) as opposed to those to died/disappeared as a result of circumstance (Khan, Dorn, Lion and Guilliman) seemed to do so gradually and separately. 

Out of the seven loyal Primarchs who survived the Heresy only two (Russ and Corax) are known (or at least are assumed) to have willingly journeyed into the Eye. One (Vulkan) disappeared in other circumstances, whilst the other four (Lion, Guilliman, Dorn and Khan) died or disappeared (unwillingly) as a direct result of circumstance or war. To me, there is no consistency in their disappearances to suggest some sort of signal or calling. 

The main reason for their disappearance is either death or because, as the IA quote above said, they were attracting unwanted attention and were becoming religiously venerated in an Imperium which was quickly deviating from the Emperor's original vision.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It is fair to say though that the IA articles are from a completely different vision compared to what todays HH is like. Other than a slight throwback to it for the old timers sake, there have been numerous occasions when the IA History has been completely ignored, changed and overwritten to such an extant that there's very little "truth" within the articles, they're an untrusted source, for want of a better piece of information.

It's like saying that Chaos Space Marines are in Fantasy, or something along those lines. They're not, despite coming from an outdated source. 

Saying that Dorn thought the Emperor worthy of deification is perpendicular to what we've seen from him in the Heresy novels, the ethos of the Grand Crusade, and the amount of time he spent on Terra near to his presence and way of thinking - aided as he was by Malcador.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> It is fair to say though that the IA articles are from a completely different vision compared to what todays HH is like. Other than a slight throwback to it for the old timers sake, there have been numerous occasions when the IA History has been completely ignored, changed and overwritten to such an extant that there's very little "truth" within the articles, they're an untrusted source, for want of a better piece of information.
> 
> It's like saying that Chaos Space Marines are in Fantasy, or something along those lines. They're not, despite coming from an outdated source.
> 
> Saying that Dorn thought the Emperor worthy of deification is perpendicular to what we've seen from him in the Heresy novels, the ethos of the Grand Crusade, and the amount of time he spent on Terra near to his presence and way of thinking - aided as he was by Malcador.


A good point. Though I would argue, in most cases, most of the lore introduced by the Heresy Series, Forgeworld Books etc. can readily coexist alongside the IA articles. As far as I am aware there isn't a huge amount of lore from the IA that has explicitly been overwritten. There is still a lot of information that is unique to the IA articles as well (such as the fates of the Legions post-Heresy eg. Eskrador). 

Also, given how "lore" works in 40k, I don't think there is a need to disregard the articles - especially considering most of it hasn't been explicitly renounced or overwritten. And most of the newer lore simply builds upon and expands what the IA articles originally gave us. 

Given the discussion (the disappearance of the Primarchs) the IA articles are still probably one of the main sources of information we have, so are very relevant here.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> How very Battlestar.
> 
> I doubt the gods would kill the loyalist Primarchs that entered the Eye. Instead preferring to keep them locked in but alive, tormenting them endlessly for their own amusement with the eventual goal of corrupting them too, much like Draigo.


"Gifting" them with visions or news about what a shithole the Imperium is these days too.....?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

As far as close disappearance, though they don't seem to have disappeared at the same time, its not farfetched to think that a big reason why most essentially went on suicide missions or disappearance crusades did so because of what CotE kind of pointed out which is they were not much of anything besides perhaps a political enemy of the new Imperium. 

I had my own theory about it unfortunately theres not enough to merit it as serious, but I always thought that a big reason the Primarchs disappeared was to take away attention of the Chaos Gods from the Imperium. For me the Primarchs seemed much like the Emperor like one of those burning souls that could make a difference or cause a real headache for the aims of the Chaos Gods. It does seem odd that all of them disappeared or reportedly died. ALL of them.


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