# Russ Vs Angron



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron? 

I mean what was the point to teach Angron anything when you are the executioner and the role is to kill off. 

Is that why the Emperor order Horus to rein in Angron becaus Russ failed?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Russ confronted Angron of his own volition. The Emperor didn't have anything to do with The Night of the Wolf (IIRC, that is what their confrontation was called).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

As far as we know (yet we'll never know for sure) Russ confronted Angron, as _DeathJester_ said, of his own volition. We also don't know for sure whether Russ and the Wolves were officially sanctioned executioners or took the mantle for themselves.

Regardless, Russ wanted to teach Angron a lesson, but failed. Angron didn't even understand what Russ was trying to achieve until Lorgar explained it to him during the Shadow Crusade.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron?


1) The Space Wolves believe they are the Emperor's executioner's but its not clear that Russ believes the same. Nor is it clear that they actually are.
2) It's also not clear when the Wolves began to believe this about themselves. They may not have thought of themselves as executioner's until later sent against the Thousand Sons.
3) Russ was not in a position to personally kill Angron. As you point out Angron had won the individual fight. If Russ wanted Angron dead he would've had to sacrifice himself, he was not willing to make that sacrifice just to teach a lesson.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malacador seems to believe the wolves are executioners, according to the unremembered empire he sent a pack of wolves to watch the loyal primarchs.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I haven't read Empire so I can't say for certain, however if those packs are anything like the ones watching Sanguinius in Fear to Tread then they're not really executioners. There's never any suggestion, and it would be rediculous of there had been, that these Wolves would be capable of executing a wayward Primarch. They are simply there to watch and report back. When a unit is actually sent to provide potential punishment on a Primarch the Emperor sends Custodes not Wolves.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*MEQinc,*

Are you so sure of that?



> “‘We know what must be done, brothers. From this moment onwards, a Space Wolf must be within reach of the Angel at all times.’ Redknife continued his address to the rest of his squad, ...
> ‘Those were Malcador’s orders,’ said Stiel. ‘Until he countermands them.’
> ‘If he countermands them,’ Redknife replied.
> The Rune Priest halted, and the question that had been pressing at him since the moment they set off for the Nartaba system pushed to the front of his thoughts. ‘Have we considered… if we enact our orders to the full letter… What will become of us?’
> ...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

They specifically state in Unremembered Empire that they are there to watch over the remaining loyalist Primarchs for any sign of treachery and to kill them if necessary, as sanctioned by Russ and Malcador. Guilliman and others often refer to the Wolves and Russ as the Executioners/The Executioner on multiple occasions. I was going to make a thread before on all the various references to them being called as such or signs that they are, and tbh, from it all now, I think it's more than just their opinion. Many others see them as such as well.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The new Heresy book by Forgeworld also strongly hints at the "Executioner" theme for the Vlka Fenryka. When listing the last events leading up to the Heresy, there are two that have "ALL DATA REDACTED". Guess what Legion is listed as being associated with those two events (ironic, given that everything else is, well, redacted)? *The Space Wolves.* :wink:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I haven't read Empire so I can't say for certain, however if those packs are anything like the ones watching Sanguinius in Fear to Tread then they're not really executioners. There's never any suggestion, and it would be rediculous of there had been, that these Wolves would be capable of executing a wayward Primarch. They are simply there to watch and report back. When a unit is actually sent to provide potential punishment on a Primarch the Emperor sends Custodes not Wolves.


Given what we know of the wolves of all the astartes they have the best chance of killing a primarch who knows they are coming.

Other's stated that they are, and in empire gulliman states their purpose.

EDIT:

Oh yeah almost forgot.

Stating that russ could be angron based on a single battle where he wasn't even trying to kill him isn't a good comparison.

Russ's purpose was to show angron his flaws as a commander, he knew angron would come at him without holding back so he had a plan around that.

It's never stated who's stronger after vulkan but I'm willing to bet angron is equal to russ.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Guess what Legion is listed as being associated with those two events (ironic, given that everything else is, well, redacted)? The Space Wolves


With the release of _The Unremembered Empire_, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and *perhaps undeserved*. We all serve according to our courage...

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh

So that means, up to the burning of Prospero, the reputation may have been undeserved...hard to have an undeserved reputation IF they had destroyed two Legions previously.

Unless there's a 3-strike you're out policy on reputations or something.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> *MEQinc,*
> 
> Are you so sure of that?


I was... but it seems I rather drastically misremembered parts. Thanks for pointing out my error.



Reaper45 said:


> Given what we know of the wolves of all the astartes they have the best chance of killing a primarch who knows they are coming.


What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.



> Stating that russ could be angron based on a single battle where he wasn't even trying to kill him isn't a good comparison.


I assume this in response to point 3 in my first post? I'm which case I wasn't saying that Russ couldn't beat Angron, I'm saying that he hadn't in that battle. The OP was wondering why Russ didn't kill him at the end of that fight, I was just pointing out that he couldn't really at that point I'm time.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> With the release of _The Unremembered Empire_, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:
> 
> G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and *perhaps undeserved*. We all serve according to our courage...
> 
> ...


Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.

It's one thing to speak about it between brothers or between ones who know about it, but hinting at things to a general audience is a bad idea.



MEQinc said:


> What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.


Same novel ten alpha legionaries nearly kill Gulliman, the only reason why he wasn't killed is because the one holding a bolter to his head hesitated.

From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back. They also were the only squad in the novel that wounded curze in his home turf. They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.


Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.



> From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back.


What we know of the Wolves is that they absolutely will hold back, until told not to. What is it that Kharn says about them? That they should've called themselves dogs. That unlike the World Eaters (and the Night Lords) they can be restrained. If all it took to be the executioners or to take out a Primarch was to not hold back then either of those Legions would be better.



> They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.


Several other Legions hold the mission as being of paramount importance. Including the Alpha Legion, who hesitate to kill Guilliman. That being the case I don't think its fair to say the none of the Space Wolves would hesitate.


Also I can't speak to the events you are referencing directly but I'll just point out that its a long way from injured or even 'near dead' to dead for a Primarch. How many Primarchs have we seen survive wounds that should've been mortal? How many have we seen pick themselves up from being moments from death to peak effectiveness in seconds. How many have seen kill their way through marines like they weren't even there?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> With the release of _The Unremembered Empire_, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner: ...


You don't?

In case anyone is interested, here is the conversation in question:



> “What is your duty, pack-leader?’
> ‘Our duty is what our duty has always been – to do what others will not. To do the unthinkable, if the unthinkable must be thought.’
> ‘Your reputation as the sanction is well known,’ said Guilliman, ‘and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage.’
> ‘Wolves serve beyond that. We are the executioner’s sons.’
> ...


I don't see how this is that ambiguous. Faffnr references the rumored duty for which his Legion is so notorious, and Guilliman knocks him down a peg. He's essentially saying, "You're not that special for doing what you claim; we all do what me must, according to our ability." At no point does he dispute the events that give Faffnr cause to consider his Legion legitimate executioners of Primarchs.

At best, I think it can be surmised that Faffnr was not part of the Sanctions against II and XI, and thus can't directly refute Guilliman's claims, but he was present at Prospero and uses it to back his argument.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Stormxlr said:


> If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.


Well Angron is potentially superior to Russ but more importantly the Lion only 'won' their duel because Russ stopped fighting making it basically impossible to get any useful information about their relative fighting skills.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually, the Lion and Russ fought each other at least three times.

The first time was on Dulan, prior to the Heresy, and it was no duel at all. Russ was outraged that the Lion slew a tyrant that he himself had vowed to kill. Russ stormed into the Lion's tent and decked him. The two brawled for some time, until Russ began laughing. The Lion was less than amused, and knocked him out cold.

The second time is not dated, but it is perhaps the most proper "duel" between the two. All we know about it is that the Lion stabbed Russ through one of his hearts, and that the duel was declared a draw.

The third time is immediately after the Siege of Terra, when the Lion blames Russ for them arriving late. Russ is despondent and bares his chest, inviting the Lion to kill him. The Lion is so enraged that he stabs him, but at the last second he realizes what he's doing and pulls his blow. When Russ awakens, the Lion begs his forgiveness and the two become fast friends.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Stormxlr said:


> If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.


Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.

The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.

There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.



MEQinc said:


> Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The wolves can be restrained, if they are ordered to.

What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.

Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape. The armour he was wearing for ceremonial armour it's protection was probably a little better than flakk armour.

A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.


None of the Legions would stop doing what they were ordered to do. Some might hesitate in doing it or be reluctant to do it, but I'd say that varies more on a personal level than a Legion one. Certainly we have seen Space Wolves hesitate and show reluctance in the commission of their orders. Until this novel I wouldn't have thought an Alpha Legionnaire would have gloated, indeed I would've said the Alpha Legion would be one of the least likely to gloat.



> Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape.


Guilliman also barely survived void exposure but was fine moments later. Night Haunter barely survived being stabbed twice but was fine moments later. The Lion was moments from death by brain smashing but was fine moments later. So on and so forth. Just because a Primarch has been heinously injured doesn't mean much.



> A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.


Why? You still haven't given any reason for that. Nothing they can do cannot be done by others. There is nothing about the Wolves that makes them inherently more dangerous than others.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I don't see how this is that ambiguous. Faffnr references the rumored duty for which his Legion is so notorious, and Guilliman knocks him down a peg. He's essentially saying, "You're not that special for doing what you claim; we all do what me must, according to our ability.


That all makes sense...until Fafnnr says, "Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?" What sort of reputation are they deserving of now, suddenly, that they would not have deserved after annihilating two other Legions 50 years before?

Also it is incredibly unlikely the two lost Legions met their ends in two separate tragedies.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Where the two separate tragedies are concerned... that's the exact language that is used in "The Lightning Tower": "separate tragedies". Furthermore, the new Forgeworld book, _Massacre,_ strongly implies that II and XI met their respective ends 37 and 41 years before the Isstvan Dropsite Massacres.

Where the Space Wolves are concerned, I agree that the language used is not the most straightforward... but I just don't see how Guilliman is somehow saying that this didn't happen. At any rate, I would it find it bizarre if, after all the hinting in _Prospero Burns_ *and* the fact that Space Wolves are specifically given orders to be ready to kill the Loyalist Primarchs in two different novels, the VI Legion's involvement with the Missing Primarchs was merely a rumor.

I'm not saying that couldn't happen; I'm just saying that, in my humble opinion, it would go against the grain of what has been presented thus far.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.
> 
> The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.
> 
> There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.


With regards to Angron and Russ, it is not stated who is specifically physically stronger. The only direct strength comparison in their fight is when Russ "launches" himself and takes a swing at Angron, but Angron blocks it and knocks him back. But that isn't a clear indication of anything. It could simply have been a case of better application of leverage and the manner in which he initially checked Russ' blow. To me it's pretty clear that Angron is the better combatant though, considering their fight and what we know about the two.

However it _*is*_ clearly stated who is right after Vulkan in terms of pure strength: Ferrus Manus. It's stated quite clearly in the one short story set post Isstvan where they show Vulkan throwing around tanks like toys, and the one legionnaire watching still remarks that the only person who might have been Vulkan's rival in strength was Ferrus, but that it's a moot point since Ferrus lost his head.



Reaper45 said:


> A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.


Ummm... wasn't that exactly what they tried on the Night Haunter and kinda failed miserably? But yeah, as has been stated, there is no actual proof that a pack of Wolves could in fact kill primarch. Wound one? certainly. Kill one? No. And I would say that an equal number of marines from any other legion could achieve the same as the Wolves could. The fact that the Alpha Legion managed to trick, get the jump on and seriously injure Guilliman, where as the Wolves got punked and brutalised by Curze, speaks volumes too IMO.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> With regards to Angron and Russ, it is not stated who is specifically physically stronger. The only direct strength comparison in their fight is when Russ "launches" himself and takes a swing at Angron, but Angron blocks it and knocks him back. But that isn't a clear indication of anything. It could simply have been a case of better application of leverage and the manner in which he initially checked Russ' blow. To me it's pretty clear that Angron is the better combatant though, considering their fight and what we know about the two.
> 
> However it _*is*_ clearly stated who is right after Vulkan in terms of pure strength: Ferrus Manus. It's stated quite clearly in the one short story set post Isstvan where they show Vulkan throwing around tanks like toys, and the one legionnaire watching still remarks that the only person who might have been Vulkan's rival in strength was Ferrus, but that it's a moot point since Ferrus lost his head.
> 
> ...


I won't argue vulkan isn't the strongest because he probably is. 

Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.

I wouldn't say they failed, after all they did fight night haunter in his environment and only lost three of their pack. That other squad plus the DA's in the drop pod were wiped out to a man and the DA's knew he was on their ship.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> That all makes sense...until Fafnnr says, "Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?" What sort of reputation are they deserving of now, suddenly, that they would not have deserved after annihilating two other Legions 50 years before?
> 
> Also it is incredibly unlikely the two lost Legions met their ends in two separate tragedies.



How about looking at it this way potentially. The Wolves are sent to sanction the XI Legion, then later on down the line are then ordered to sanction the II. They now get the reputation and title, official or not as the Emperors executioners. To some, such as Guilliman, two separate events form a line, not a pattern, chalk it up to coincidence, Russ and his Legion just might have been in the right place at the right time for both separate events to be chosen. Ergo, Guilliman and others think the reputation is undeserved. But then factor in the Burning of Prospero and you now have three separate incidents, now you have a pattern.

Speculation of course, but makes enough sense to me. Regardless, from all the hints and comments that have been dropped over the series, I'm more than convinced that the Vlka Fenryka carried out the execution of at least one of the missing legions, if not both. 

Look to _The Outcast Dead_, why would the Gregora(think it was him..) upon learning of that it was Magnus that caused all the chaos say to Kai when asked what would happen next, that "The Wolves will be unleashed again" or similar words to that effect, '_again_' being the key word. Why would the Wolves be chosen by Malcador to send a pack to the side of all the remaining loyalist Primarchs? When Guilliman confronts Lorgar over his betrayal, he rages at him "Pathetic. Our father should have left you out in the snow at birth. He should have fed you to Russ. You worm. You _maggot_.", again...why Russ? Why would they be refereed to as the Executioners, or refer to themselves as such long before Nikaea if they hadn't already done an action that would convey that epithet?

Again, from all the material we have from the Heresy series and Forgeworld, I don't need any more convincing.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.


Was that Russ' plan the whole time, or is that what he went with after it became clear that he couldn't beat Angron? Did Russ really plan to sacrifice his men to teach Angron a lesson he was unlikely to learn? What in Russ' character suggests that he would behave that way?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I won't argue vulkan isn't the strongest because he probably is.


Nothing probable to me. Vulkan even explicitly states in _Vulkan Lives_ that the Emperor made him the strongest, but he always held back his strength when sparring/dueling with his brothers. Also, Vulkan pushed a friggin' super-heavy tank (think it was Stormsword but can't exactly remember) around in that same novel, a vehicle that weights over 300 tons. No other primarch has displayed any strength feat close to that, the only one coming anywhere in the same ball park being Angron's titan leg feat. They honestly pumped Vulkan up to almost Hulk (though not enraged Hulk) levels of strength in recent novels.



Reaper45 said:


> Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.


Except it was Russ who threw the first strike, not Angron. Angron baited Russ and Russ lost his temper. There is nothing to suggest that it was Russ's plan to flank Angron. More a case of the Wolves seeing their primarch was in danger and acted to support him, where as the World Eaters, lost to the nails, paid no heed to the clash between primarchs.



Reaper45 said:


> I wouldn't say they failed, after all they did fight night haunter in his environment and only lost three of their pack. That other squad plus the DA's in the drop pod were wiped out to a man and the DA's knew he was on their ship.


How did they not fail? They tried to kill him, they didn't succeed. Hence failure. The DA squad in the drop pod just failed worse. And the Dark Angels knew he was on their ship, not that he was about to hitch a ride on one of their drop pods.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> The third time is immediately after the Siege of Terra, when the Lion blames Russ for them arriving late. Russ is despondent and bares his chest, inviting the Lion to kill him. The Lion is so enraged that he stabs him, but at the last second he realizes what he's doing and pulls his blow. When Russ awakens, the Lion begs his forgiveness and the two become fast friends.


Such a powerful scene. There needs to be a short story about it or a major part of a novel dedicated to it but alas, we must wait for quite a long time for the SoT to start making an appearance in the books (and that's a good thing, I don't want the HH series to ever 'end').


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Agreed!


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ? It kind of doesn't make sense to me. 
I mean why care for Angron. 

Usually it's been from my assumption that each legions are kind of selfish and in some ways are competing against each other to be the best legion.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ?


Russ tried to use words to reason with Angron. The conversation escalated to a point where Angron made a comment about potentially going to Terra and taking the Emperor's head. At which point Russ lost it and "launched" himself at Angron, kicking off their fight. That's the beauty of it though in terms of the Wolves. Russ didn't _*need*_ to make any effort to teach him a lesson there. The Wolves did it for him by always having his back, and being able to step in when their primarch was in trouble. In comparison to the World Eaters pretty much left Angron to fend for himself, with only a few of them trying (ineffectually) to reach the primarchs when they realised the tables had turned. The majority of the Worlds Eaters legion was lost to the nails, so intent on slaughtering Space Wolves that they paid no attention to Russ and Angron.

There was nothing there to suggest to me that Russ lost on purpose. To me it would have made more of an impact if he had not only bested Angron, but also had the Wolves at his back while he did it. It would have proven that Angron's methods are not only ineffectual in terms of the bigger picture, but fighting without any kind of restraint whatsoever it is also not good for one-on-one combat. But as we know, the Wolves did in fact take more casualties and Angron beat Russ. Hence why they added in the bit in _Betrayer_ about the Night of the Wolf, where they say that despite how both sides claimed victory, both secretly feared they had lost.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

kwak76 said:


> If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron?
> 
> I mean what was the point to teach Angron anything when you are the executioner and the role is to kill off.
> 
> Is that why the Emperor order Horus to rein in Angron becaus Russ failed?


Russ had his ass whipped both physically and verbally and ironically was the one who attacked first.

His leason meant nothing Since Angron did not care if he lived or died.

And Russ was NOT ordered by the emperor to bring Angron in he overstepped his bounds and paid for it badly when he could'nt bully Angron into going to Terra with him.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Reaper45 said:


> Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.
> 
> The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.
> 
> ...


 Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.

The only chance a pack has is against an unarmoured primarch taking a dump and even then it would be a small chance.


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## Znoz (Feb 9, 2013)

godking said:


> Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.


Two Primarchs were also thrown.
Curze was "overpowered" in that book.

Idea about having pack of hunters watching your actions, makes you think twice before doing some anti-Emperor actions\treachery. I think that was symbolical threat.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Znoz said:


> Two Primarchs were also thrown.
> Curze was "overpowered" in that book.
> 
> Idea about having pack of hunters watching your actions, makes you think twice before doing some anti-Emperor actions\treachery. *I think that was symbolical threat*.


Correct they are a symbolic threat and an early warning system for Malcador.

No one pack of Wolves is killing a Primarch however if a pack of wolves tasked to watch a primarch suddenly stop checking in something is probably wrong.

Same as the Custodes tasked to watch Lorgar.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ? It kind of doesn't make sense to me.
> I mean why care for Angron.
> 
> Usually it's been from my assumption that each legions are kind of selfish and in some ways are competing against each other to be the best legion.


Not selfishness. Pretty much the opposite.

Russ sees that his brother is degenerating, and is pulling his legion down with him, so he stages an intervention. From _Betrayer_:

_Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight. ‘Do you see?’ he said. No, he barked it. He barked it not like a simple beast, but with human passion backed by canine ferocity. Conviction burned in his eyes – the same instinctive viciousness of a dog defending its family. ‘Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you’ve done to your sons?’ At the battle’s core, sense pierced Angron’s aching sight long enough to leave him speechless. The axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at the ranks of Wolves facing him with their bolters raised. They came in ragged packs, abandoning the warfare to form a ring around the primarchs. Wolf after Wolf – close enough for Angron to make out the individual totems and talismans rattling against their storm-grey armour – moving to stand in ragged ranks with their brothers._

_‘You didn’t answer Russ’s question,’ he said. ‘Did you truly learn nothing from that fight?’ Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’ ‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’ ‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’ That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’ ‘He crawled.’ Angron chuckled again, making a meal of the word. ‘And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’ ‘He tried and failed.’ ‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty. Look what happened. Yes, you beat him in a duel. Yes, your men took down more of his than his of yours. And yet, who won the battle?’ ‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation. 

Lorgar just stared at him for several seconds. ‘I appreciate that every living being must, by the nature of perception, understand and process life in a different way. But even for you, brother, this is achingly obtuse.’ ‘You’re saying the Wolves won.’ Angron looked more amused than confused. ‘How can you not see it?’ Lorgar steepled his fingers, trying to rein in his own temper. ‘They won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. *While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.’* Angron didn’t chuckle that time. Lorgar could see it in his brother’s tensed muscles – some cognitive switch had clicked somewhere in his consciousness, and Angron’s rage was rising again. ‘Only one of us ran away that night. He’s weak.’ ‘Gods’ blood.’ Lorgar was still managing, barely, to speak calmly. ‘The primarchs are the bridge between the Emperor and the species he leads. We are all weak, for we are all equal. All of us. We are humanity magnified: its virtues and its flaws.’ ‘I am not weak. I have never been weak.’ ‘You are not only weak if you fail to understand Russ’s lesson, you are also a fool.’_


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

BS Russ was the one to strike first.

Russ overstepped his bounds and assumed that it fell to him to reign in Angron.

He taught Angron a lesson a lesson that meant nothing to Angron as he never gave a damn about his legion or his own life as far as he was concerned he died at de'shea.

Russ may have won the tactical battle but he lost the duel with Angron both physically and verbally.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Where the two separate tragedies are concerned... that's the exact language that is used in "The Lightning Tower": "separate tragedies".


Ha! That's what I get for posting so late at night. I meant to say, "It is highly unlikely the Wolves were the cause of destroying both Legions since they met separate tragedies." Whoopsies.



Phoebus said:


> . At any rate, I would it find it bizarre if, after all the hinting in Prospero Burns


Which hinting are you talking about? How the Wolves spoke in the dropship about being the Executioner's sons? Or the ending line with Russ talking about this not being the first time Astartes fought Astartes?

The first _can_ be dismissed by everyone and their mom. Looking back on _Betrayer_, they are STILL merely rumored to be the Emperor's executioners as of the Ghenna scouring. And remember how late this would have to be, since Angron was amongst the last Primarchs to be found...and he's been around for a while at this point.
It also mentions how even the Primarchs doubted the validity of this supposed title.

And of course the second part, the one about Astartes fighting Astartes, we have the Night of the Wolf as one example of Astartes fighting against each other pre-Prospero.



Angel of Blood said:


> Why would they be refereed to as the Executioners, or refer to themselves as such long before Nikaea if they hadn't already done an action that would convey that epithet?


It seemed their reputation as Executioners was still unclear up to at least the Ghenna Massacre. As I said earlier, I can only speculate the Massacre happened after the events that lead to the disappearance of the two Unknown Legions.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

godking said:


> Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.
> 
> The only chance a pack has is against an unarmoured primarch taking a dump and even then it would be a small chance.


Curze also beat two primarchs one of which was hunting him on curzes own turf for months.

Curze's entire purpose was blade porn nothing more. Given the fact that the only other astartes who drew his blood had support from an Iron warrior using xeno tech.

The alpha legion also had gulliman however he was protected by plot armour nothing more.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Karthak said:


> Russ sees that his brother is degenerating, and is pulling his legion down with him, so he stages an intervention. From _Betrayer_:


There's nothing in that quote that suggests Russ 'intervened' because he wanted to change Angron's behaviour and world view. I think it's safe to say that Russ never planned to be forced to crawl for his life, that he never planned for hundreds of his sons to be killed. Indeed that ending was very close to Russ himself being killed, Angron could hardly be counted on to pull out of his rage and his death was unlikely to be swift enough to stop him (it is possible he wouldn't have died at all). Personally I don't see Russ being willing to take those risks. 

Nor do I see any evidence that Russ actually cared about Angron. Lorgar does, and so he interprets Russ' actions a specific way, but Russ very well may not have meant them that way. It seems to me that he wanted Angron sanctioned, he changed this to dead when he couldn't persuade him to come willingly and when it became clear that he couldn't kill Angron he settled for a moral victory. 



> _While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.’_




This lesson is of questionable validity. He claims that Russ' sons threatening Angron's life represents 'taking the objective', what then does Angron threatening Russ' life represent? If the Primarch is the objective than the World Eaters took it with less effort, freeing up more of their force to secure secondary objectives (such as the elimination of opposition). Lorgar claims Angron was outmaneuvered but surely it was the Wolves, forced to respond to their Primarch's failing, that were maneuvered, forced to leave the rest of their force outnumbered? In a frontal clash such as the SW and WE engaged in killing the enemy is the only objective, the World Eaters demonstrated a willingness to achieve that objective at all costs while the Wolves abandon victory for emotion. 

If this is the lesson Russ sacrificed his sons and risked his life for, then he is the fool, not Angron.



Reaper45 said:


> Curze's entire purpose was blade porn nothing more. Given the fact that the only other astartes who drew his blood had support from an Iron warrior using xeno tech.
> 
> The alpha legion also had gulliman however he was protected by plot armour nothing more.


Were Night Haunter and Guilliman protected by plot armour or were the Wolves/Alpha Legion? 

We have extensive evidence showing us that Marines are nothing to Primarchs, we have one source where they suddenly become credible threats. Is it more likely that every prior source is exaggerating, or just this one?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> If this is the lesson Russ sacrificed his sons and risked his life for, then he is the fool, not Angron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends on where you stand, we know that Gulliman and curze survive the heresy and are brought down in desperate incidents.

Also keep in mind gullimans advisors words. One lucky shot to his head would have killed him.

Russ knew going in that the world eaters were dangerous he stated that they attacked many allies before this event.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Depends on where you stand, we know that Gulliman and curze survive the heresy and are brought down in desperate incidents.


Obviously we know that Night Haunter and Guilliman survive the incidents of the book. My question was, is it plot (their stated later demise) that saves them from logical danger, or was it logical ability that saved them from plot (the need for drama)? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been placed in danger at all? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been able to escape the danger they were in? 



> Also keep in mind gullimans advisors words. One lucky shot to his head would have killed him.


(Having not read the novel) 
1) Fulgrim was shot in the head and suffered no lasting damage. 
2) We are repeatedly shown that non-Primarchs have absolutely no idea what it takes to kill a Primarch. Hell, we are directly told that medical professionals are unable to recognize the innards of a Primarch. 



> Russ knew going in that the world eaters were dangerous he stated that they attacked many allies before this event.


So Russ knowingly and willingly provoked berserkers (ie. people with a lack of control over their own violence), knowingly and willingly sacrificing hundreds of his men, knowingly and willingly nearly died (he probably should have), just to teach Angron a lesson about tactical awareness? Not a lesson about restraint, or a lesson about trusting allies (after all Russ initiates the battle) but a lesson about military tactics. That is completely out of character for Russ. He never approaches another brother with tactical advice, he in fact takes pains to paint an image of himself and his legion as not being tactical. He takes pains to reduce his losses in future battles and doesn't seem to take undue risks. In short Russ planning for the Night of the Wolf to turn out the way it did is completely out of character.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Obviously we know that Night Haunter and Guilliman survive the incidents of the book. My question was, is it plot (their stated later demise) that saves them from logical danger, or was it logical ability that saved them from plot (the need for drama)? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been placed in danger at all? Given the evidence we have been given of Primarch's ability should they have been able to escape the danger they were in?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.

Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.

Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.


Again... who was the one pissed off here? Russ, who attacked first? Or Angron who defended himself?

And that's the thing, Russ *did* attack first. Angron still told him before the whole thing started to escalate that he should leave before the confrontation turned into something Russ would regret. So what you are saying with all this intentional flanking and berzerker manipulation nonsense is that Russ _*wasted*_ the lives of a number of legionnaires from 2 legions by forcing a confrontation with Angron, one that achieved nothing. That Russ is the one to blame for kicking off a needless fight that cost both legions several warriors. And as someone else has said, the lesson meant nothing to Angron because he did not care whether he lived or died. He might as well have died on Nuceria as far as he was concerned. 

So if we take it your way, the Wolves *did* lose the Night of the Wolf. They took needless casualties while failing to achieve their objective (if teaching Angron and the World Eaters a lesson by flanking Angron was in fact that). And you can say what you will, but the fact that the Wolves fought the "broken" legion in a head to head fight and came off worse in terms of casualties would have majorly stung their pride.

If we take your interpretation it makes Russ look like a reckless, arrogant idiot. But if we take it as Russ losing a duel to Angron, but having the Space Wolves stepping in, not by any specific design for that moment, but simply because they naturally had enough focus, discipline and tactical sense to keep track of the primarch battle where the World Eaters didn't, it paints a very different picture, one where the Wolves come out as looking far better than the World Eaters. And one that paints a more sensible picture of Russ too, one that fits more with his character IMO. It shows a Russ that was capable of thinking quickly and adapting, and turning a moment of personal defeat into something positive when his sons came to support him.



Reaper45 said:


> Curze also beat two primarchs one of which was hunting him on curzes own turf for months.


Also, please point out to me where Curze *beat* two primarchs? Holding them off, while still quite impressive, is not even remotely the same thing as beating them.


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## godking (Oct 13, 2013)

Reaper45 said:


> Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.
> 
> Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.
> 
> Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.


You theory falls apart due to the fact that Russ struck FIRST.

And due to the fact that Angron was easily beating Russ verbally before Russ struck first.

Russ overstepped his bounds and wrote checks his body could'nt cash.

Someone else could have emparted Russ ''lesson'' then Russ did.


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

I dont remember the exact words but Angron says something to the fact of "I should go to Terra and take the tyrants head myself" and that was when the shooting started.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Shooting anything enough times with a high explosive armour piercing weapon and you're going to kill it.


Sure. How many shots do you think it would take to kill a space ship ? Just because something is achievable doesn't mean its feasible. 



> Since gulliman dove for cover and didn't rush them I'd say he wasn't sure he'd survive.


Or he wanted to minimize injury. We commonly see the Primarchs react to danger by attempting to minimize that danger, but we have yet to see one killed so easily.



> Exactly Angron is a berzerker that means he has only one method of attack. Pissing them off is the best way to beat them as you'll manipulate them into doing what you want.


So Russ wanted Angron to kill him? He wanted the World Eaters to kill loads of Wolves? Seriously, just think about what you're saying.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Sure. How many shots do you think it would take to kill a space ship ? Just because something is achievable doesn't mean its feasible.
> 
> One shot.
> 
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

> One shot.



Where would you shoot a ship the size of a city to kill it?



> I dunno I'd say beheading would be called an easy kill




Sure, beheading via epic duel between demi-gods. Easy kill.




> You would have to be pretty stupid to assume there would be no violence. They all would know that.


1) I'm not sure that's true. Both Primarchs seem initially reluctant to fight. Angron even tries to get Russ to leave without bloodshed. 
2) If Russ' goal was to start a fight then why does he bother talking to Angron? Russ doesn't need to provoke Angron, as he believes he has the legal and moral right to sanction him. If all Russ wants is a fight, then he should've opened with the punch. 
3) You'd have to be pretty stupid to base a plan around being able to convince a lobotomized berserker to spare your life after you've made a legitimate attempt to kill him.
4) You'd also have to be pretty stupid to create a plan around large numbers of your men dieing for no good reason.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> It's the world eaters, Russ went in there knowing their reputation. In the short story after Des'ha It's made pretty clear the world eaters were killing allies before they had the nails.
> 
> You would have to be pretty stupid to assume there would be no violence. They all would know that.


Except there are a number of other examples of where the World Eaters and/or Angron interact with other legions without any violence. Then there is the fact that Angron still told Russ to leave peacefully before there was any violence. And then there is also the fact that it was Russ who threw the first blow, not Angron or any of the World Eaters. If Russ had left peacefully before/during/after the verbal encounter there would have been no violence. But he drew his weapon first and attacked Angron. So yeah, your point doesn't hold any merit right now.

You make it sound as though the World Eaters would just randomly attack anyone else at any given time for no real reason. And we know that even at their worst, (before falling to Khorne during the HH that is, and even then they were able to work with the other traitors), that wasn't the case. Or it would have been completely impossible for the World Eaters to work alongside the other traitor legions at Isstvan, or join up with Lorgar for his Shadow Crusade.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> And of course the second part, the one about Astartes fighting Astartes, we have the Night of the Wolf as one example of Astartes fighting against each other pre-Prospero.



In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well. 

The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then. 

They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's _theoretical/practical_ way before him.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well.
> 
> The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?


Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

One thing that occurred to me is maybe Russ' psychic howl which was so effective against the Thousand Sons actually made Angron more effective as we know what effect psychic abilities have on Angron's nails? Russ probably wouldn't have known this and so he howled as he probably always did and sent Angron into a rage Russ wasn't prepared for.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then.
> 
> They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's _theoretical/practical_ way before him.


No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge. 

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Rems said:


> No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.
> 
> I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.


We have an example of what the Ultramarines would have thought of running theoreticals against other Marines pre-heresy. From Know no Fear:

_‘Sergeant Thiel. Do you happen to know why he was under censure?’ ‘I do, sir,’ says Jaer. ‘His commanding officer discovered that he was running theoreticals on how to fight and defeat Space Marines, sir. Thiel claimed, in his defence, that he had run theoreticals on all other major adversaries, and it was a tactical blind spot not to know how to fight the Legions. He said, as I understand it, that the Space Marines of the Imperium were the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and thus had an obligation to understand how to fight and defeat the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Thiel declared that Space Marines were the only opponents left worth any theoretical study. His theoreticals were regarded as treasonous thought, and he was referred to the flagship for censure.’ ‘That was his infraction?’ asks Gage. ‘Looks bloody pitiful from where we’re standing, doesn’t it?’ asks Jaer._


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Rems said:


> No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.
> 
> I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.


Isn't that the beauty of the AL? In the short time they were founded, they developed this paranoia of their brother legions to the point where they started anti-Astartes weapons production at such an early stage.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rems said:


> No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.
> 
> I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.


The alpha legions are spies, and given their nature they're going to be crazy prepared for everything.

It's also ironic that none of the primarchs would consider yeah maybe we should study astartes since there was 20 of us.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.


Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.

And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.
> 
> And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?


Let's analyze the legions.

The word bearers are a bunch of wimps who build churches.
The world eaters tactical book is charge directly at nearest enemy regardless of what happens
Emperors children is more concerned with perfection than getting shit done.
Ultramarines are incapable of thinking out of the box. Frankly by this time the one guy who considered the possibility of astartes vs astartes combat was disgraced.
The dark angels I really don't know the lion probably had his own agenda
Death guard did frontal assaults
Iron warriors and imperial fists worked best against walls
the luna wolves used tip of the spear tactics.
blood angels were CC specialists with have a serious flaw.
Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans
Night lords use terror
Raven guard use stealth.
salamanders like to burn things
Iron hands appear to use overwhelming force
White scars use fast attack.
The 1K sons are psykers whatever their others tactics are I don't know.
Then finally the wolves, they do the berserker charge of the world eaters and BA but they seem to have more control over it, they also use pack tactics as evident in the night of the wolves.

Aside from the DA and maybe alpha legion the wolves were the only ones who could be executioners, everyone else either didn't specialize in what it would take to kill an astartes. Or wasn't flexible enough to get the job one.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Let's analyze the legions.


Yes, lets. But this time, lets try to be a little less biased eh?



> Emperors children is more concerned with perfection than getting shit done.


Exactly, perfection in everything they do. Every stroke, perfect, every movement, perfect, every tactic, perfect.


> Ultramarines are incapable of thinking out of the box.


Doesn't really mater as their box is absolutely massive and contains almost every possible scenario. They failed to think the impossible, but quickly fixed that mistake once it was revealed to be possible and then went so far as to run simulations against other Loyalists (something no one else did).


> Iron warriors and imperial fists worked best against walls


But the Imperial Fists have one of the finest military records of all the Legions (I believe they were second or third in number of conquests). Did that many planets have walls, or are they capable of winning without them? Further, taking fortifications is one of the hardest things to do in a war, the fact that these Legions were really, really good at it shouldn't be held against them.


> the luna wolves used tip of the spear tactics.


Horus is explicitly referred to as a a master tactician, yet you believe he used only one tactic?


> blood angels were CC specialists with have a serious flaw.


Yeah their flaw is that they're too good at it. Bummer.


> Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans


Wait... complicated plans and avoiding casualties are bad?


> Night lords use terror


And therefore have no fixed m.o. The Night Lords will do whatever is necessary to win, they are willing to go so far beyond anything other Marines (even the Wolves) are willing to do.



> Then finally the wolves, they do the berserker charge of the world eaters and BA but they seem to have more control over it, they also use pack tactics as evident in the night of the wolves.


1) The Wolves have more control? Who lost it first in the Night of the Wolf? The Wolves are just as likely to lose control as the others. Look at _Wolves at the Door_, completely unnecessary butchery. The Wolves believe they are more controlled, but they don't show it.
2) Another word for 'pack tactics' is 'unit tactics', every modern military uses this, the Marines are no exception (aside from occasionally the World Eaters). I'll point to the comparison made between Marines and Custodes in _First Heretic_, in which I believe the 'wimps' of the Word Bearers are compared to wolves.



> everyone else either didn't specialize in what it would take to kill an astartes.


What does it take to kill an Astartes? 



> Or wasn't flexible enough to get the job one.


So the Wolves, whose tactics seem to be 'frontal charge' and 'sneaky charge', are more flexible than the Ultramarines, whose vast tactical doctrine is the basis for the entire Imperium's military in 40k? Or the explicit tactical brilliance of several Primarchs (of which Russ is not one)?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The word bearers are a bunch of wimps who build churches.


Arguably the most dedicated of all the Legions to the Emperor before Monarchia, and, considering that they conquered more planets than any other legion in the space after that, I would hardly call them wimps. 



Reaper45 said:


> The world eaters tactical book is charge directly at nearest enemy regardless of what happens


 They preferred direct assaults yes, and their effectiveness at this was shown in great detail when they fought the Wolves. When it comes to wiping out your opponent to the last man the World Eaters are one of the best. And remind me again what executing a legion entails?



Reaper45 said:


> Emperors children is more concerned with perfection than getting shit done.


 Ok that is just total BS. They strove for perfection yes, but they did it through application of their skills. They still prided themselves in having a legion that had specialists in a number of fields and could operate with peak efficiency under various circumstances 



Reaper45 said:


> Ultramarines are incapable of thinking out of the box. Frankly by this time the one guy who considered the possibility of astartes vs astartes combat was disgraced.


Because the idea of it was so alien and down right _heretical_ at the time. I think if they had been put in a position by the Emperor where they had to consider fighting other astartes beforehand, they would have had no problems developing very effective ways to battle other legions. Like they did, y'know, after Calth.



Reaper45 said:


> The dark angels I really don't know the lion probably had his own agenda


 It has been repeatedly shown now that the Lion has never been anything but loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. Just because he liked to play his cards close doesn't mean he had another agenda. Not to mention their access to exotic tech and weapons the other legions did not have (and therefore probably had no knowledge of their capabilities or how to best defend against these) would most certainly have been an advantage in any conflict.



Reaper45 said:


> Death guard did frontal assaults


 Among other things. They were generally stuck in some of the worse and most hazardous combat environments, where they actually thrived. And, as shown in _Vulkan Lives_, some of their chemical weaponry proved very very effective against fellow legions.



Reaper45 said:


> Iron warriors and imperial fists worked best against walls


 Well, the Fists were also noted as being one of the most successful, and, as the Lion notes, most efficient and best functioning legions around. They wouldn't have been regarded as such if they didn't have a fairly broad skill set, siegecraft and defence merely being chief among them.




Reaper45 said:


> the luna wolves used tip of the spear tactics.


 Their preferred tactic yes. But they didn't become the most successful legion of the Great Crusade by being totally one dimensional. You are seriously underrating them here.



Reaper45 said:


> blood angels were CC specialists with have a serious flaw.


 Like the Wolves with their own genetic curse?



Reaper45 said:


> Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans


 For the most part. And they were able to get far closer to actually managing to kill a primarch than the Wolves have so far.



Reaper45 said:


> Night lords use terror


 Yet were capable of engaging in a long campaign against the Dark Angels legion, where the application of terror was not a viable tactic.



Reaper45 said:


> Raven guard use stealth.


 Stealth and hit and run. Great for sowing confusion amongst enemy ranks. And if the terrain suits smaller engagements, excellent for eliminating enemy forces piecemeal.



Reaper45 said:


> salamanders like to burn things


 They preferred fire weapons when they fought. They also had a lot of armour, vehicles etc. compared to many other legions. This does not give us any idea with regards to how effective their tactics are against another legion, or even what tactics they actually used.



Reaper45 said:


> Iron hands appear to use overwhelming force


 Yet capable of adapting and coming up with new strategies, such as when the Eldar turned their own mechanised parts against them during that one campaign. So I see no reason why they couldn't adapt successfully to fighting another legion. Hell, the Isstvan suvivors have shown, especially the Iron Hands, just how resourceful they can be.



Reaper45 said:


> White scars use fast attack.


 So they liked to use speed when they fought. What's your point? Doesn't detract from their effectiveness.



Reaper45 said:


> The 1K sons are psykers whatever their others tactics are I don't know.


 The Thousand Sons often used guile, trickery and diplomacy to achieve compliances. But we saw in _A Thousand Sons_ that even outnumbered, taken by surprise, facing some forces specifically made to combat them, as well as the Emperor's personal force, they still managed to give the invading force a serious mauling. Hell, up until that one idiot captain overused his powers and set off the catastrophic chain of events that put them on the retreat, they were actually winning. And they, along with Magnus, still managed to escape. From under the Wolves' noses.




Reaper45 said:


> Then finally the wolves, they do the berserker charge of the world eaters and BA but they seem to have more control over it, they also use pack tactics as evident in the night of the wolves.


 The Blood Angels never showed any control issues on a large scale before Signus. The breakouts of the Red Thirst were really limited to individual cases before then. So that doesn't really hold. And explain "pack tactics"? Other than the World Eaters who were lost to the nails, pretty much every other legion would have come to their primarch's aid if they thought he was in trouble.



Reaper45 said:


> Aside from the DA and maybe alpha legion the wolves were the only ones who could be executioners, everyone else either didn't specialize in what it would take to kill an astartes. Or wasn't flexible enough to get the job one.


Firstly, though it was their preferred tactics listed above, it was by no means the only thing they were capable of. The Emperor made the Space Marines to be the galaxy's greatest fighting force. Capable of fighting under any circumstances against any foe. All your "analysis" does is seriously downplay what all the other legions are capable of in order to make the Wolves seem more special than they were.

Every legion will know as much as any other how to kill a space marine. Seeing as they are all themselves space marines and well aware of what they are capable of. Also, if the Wolves were such specialists, why didn't they totally murder the World Eaters (a legion whos abilities you seem to enjoy underplaying) or why did they have such a hard time against the Thousand Sons, even with the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood backing them.

And quite frankly, calling the Wolves more tactically flexible than the Fists, Emperor's Children, Luna Wolves, Ultramarines etc. is a joke.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The wolves would come to heel after the fighting had stopped. :grin: Also, they had no problems going straight to using ridiculous force - rather than talking and solving differences or even landing and conquering at times. Thinking about that planet they wanted beat so they dropped a massive space station on the enemy base from orbit - with no remorse.

The B.A were berzerkers, same as the world eaters. Both legions would've been next to impossible to reign in after getting their blood up. The World Eaters were known for excessive savagery even then. Also, Sanguinious was too noble and would've used the phrase 'wracked with guilt' in every appearance after in the heresy.

I think the Ultra's, DA and IF were too honourable to fight other legions at first until they realised it was absolutely nescessary. They wouldn't have just got on with it like the wolves did. Although I did like the description of the Ultra's box  

I think the 1ksons would've been awesome at taking other legions out. Most of them couldn't defend against that amount of psykers (especially after nicea). But the Emp had plans for them - IIRC, he wanted Magnus on the Golden Throne and therefore he wasn't expendable for primarch fighting.

The Night Lords use terror - Marines don't do fear in the way of lesser races so their effectiveness would've been dimished. As shown by the DA handing their ass to them in the end of the (thramas?) crusade

The Iron Warriors couldn't have done it as they were split round the galaxy, guarding/garrisoning....setting up for the heresy.

The Emperors Children could've done it, same as the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus but I think location plays a part - weren't they off at the leading edge of the crusade? (Logistics would've prevented them from taking that role.)

The Salamanders were too nice.

The Iron Hands could've done it, but due to their shit representation in the heresy so far (everyone knows they only charge in blindly and angrily) I don't think they could've pulled it off. 

Nobody can find the White Scars.

The Alpha's wouldn't have needed to enact sanctions. The opposing primarch would've just found out that all his marines were Alpharius...
But I don't think 1 vs 1 they would've held up to another primarch in battle and due to narratives having to involve primarch vs primarch they wouldn't have been first choice.

So The Wolves were the legion used as sanction because
Location
Not questioning orders
Stopping once they'd finished
Small legion, so they were more expendable - the wolves losing wouldn't be the same as Rogal Dorn or Roboute's legions losing.
Russ was one of the better primarchs to go 1 vs 1 with another primarch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The wolves would come to heel after the fighting had stopped. :grin: Also, they had no problems going straight to using ridiculous force - rather than talking and solving differences or even landing and conquering at times. Thinking about that planet they wanted beat so they dropped a massive space station on the enemy base from orbit - with no remorse.


I think if crashing a space station into a planet was the most tactically sound solution, most legions would do it, with the exception of probably the Salamanders and Thousand Sons. Salamanders would be worried about collateral damage, and the Thousand Sons prized potential knowledge and despised needless destruction.



Gret79 said:


> The B.A were berzerkers, same as the world eaters. Both legions would've been next to impossible to reign in after getting their blood up. The World Eaters were known for excessive savagery even then. Also, Sanguinious was too noble and would've used the phrase 'wracked with guilt' in every appearance after in the heresy.


 The Blood Angels were known for being brutal in C.C. but they were not even remotely as hard to control as the World Eaters. It is only during Signus where they lose control on any serious scale. There are no horror stories about BA during the GC, and the gene curse couldn't have been very common if only Horus knew about it, and only because Sang confided in him.




Gret79 said:


> I think the Ultra's, DA and IF were too honourable to fight other legions at first until they realised it was absolutely nescessary. They wouldn't have just got on with it like the wolves did. Although I did like the description of the Ultra's box


That doesn't say anything about their actual efficiency at fighting other legions. Just their initial willingness to do so.




Gret79 said:


> I think the 1ksons would've been awesome at taking other legions out. Most of them couldn't defend against that amount of psykers (especially after nicea). But the Emp had plans for them - IIRC, he wanted Magnus on the Golden Throne and therefore he wasn't expendable for primarch fighting.


 I don't think Magnus would have gone for the role of executioner quite frankly, even if it was offered to him and his legion. His whole outlook was the polar opposite of simply wiping things out.



Gret79 said:


> The Night Lords use terror - Marines don't do fear in the way of lesser races so their effectiveness would've been dimished. As shown by the DA handing their ass to them in the end of the (thramas?) crusade


 The 2 legions were pretty much stalemated until the Dark Angels managed to get their hands on that other little nifty device which allowed them to give the Night Lords one of the greatest sneak attacks in galactic history.



Gret79 said:


> The Iron Warriors couldn't have done it as they were split round the galaxy, guarding/garrisoning....setting up for the heresy.


 I agree here. They were spread far too wide across the galaxy to be able to be called upon to sanction any other legion within any reasonable timeframe.



Gret79 said:


> The Emperors Children could've done it, same as the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus but I think location plays a part - weren't they off at the leading edge of the crusade? (Logistics would've prevented them from taking that role.)


 Both these legions, in terms of ability, could have fulfilled the role IMO. I don't know about where they were in terms of leading the Crusade, but I actually think that there is a good chance that neither Horus or Fulgrim would have been keen on being the Emperor's watchdogs. Both were pretty arrogant, so they'd probably feel like it was a job that was beneath them.



Gret79 said:


> The Salamanders were too nice.


 Yeah, probably.:laugh:



Gret79 said:


> The Iron Hands could've done it, but due to their shit representation in the heresy so far (everyone knows they only charge in blindly and angrily) I don't think they could've pulled it off.


 Well, that is just poor writing so far. The Isstvan suvivors have shown plenty of strategy and tactical ability. Also, Ferrus was noted as a potential candidate with Guilliman, Lion, Dorn etc. for Warmaster, and Guilliman considered putting the Iron Hands in as the command base for the "shattered" legion presence in Ultramar. He wouldn't have considered that without good reason.



Gret79 said:


> Nobody can find the White Scars.


 Haha, actually very true, if _Brotherhood of the Storm_ is anything to go by.



Gret79 said:


> The Alpha's wouldn't have needed to enact sanctions. The opposing primarch would've just found out that all his marines were Alpharius...
> But I don't think 1 vs 1 they would've held up to another primarch in battle and due to narratives having to involve primarch vs primarch they wouldn't have been first choice.


 Well, the twins have shown the ability to outsmart a number of their brothers, as well as successfully infiltrate a number of legions. As far as legions go with a very high success rate against other legions in terms of achieving their objectives, the AL are probably at the top.



Gret79 said:


> So The Wolves were the legion used as sanction because
> Location
> Not questioning orders
> Stopping once they'd finished
> ...


I don't get what you mean by location. They were out crusading, like all the other legions. 

Also, a number of primarchs, most notably Dorn, would also follow the Emperor's orders without question. Hell, Pollux had Perturabo by the balls, and retreated simply because Dorn said so.

Stopping once they'd finished? Other than the Wolrd Eaters, who sometimes lost control, the legions also stopped fighting when there was no longer any need to. And the Wolves did not always stop. See the encounter between them and the Thousand Sons at Shrike, where the Sons had secured the one large library, but then the Wolves still wanted to destroy it, even though it was no longer a military threat.

And I don't see how smaller numbers would make them a better choice at taking out legions. A numerical disadvantage when fighting warriors who are your equals is never a plus. And the loss of any legion would have been a major blow to the Imperium, whether it was the Wolves or the Ultramarines.

And the last point about Russ is purely opinion. There is nothing to suggest that Russ was more suited to fighting his brothers than any of the others were. Case in point, he lost to Angron, has never managed to best the Lion, and got lucky to beat Magnus, even with the odds stacked in his favour during that fight. I'm not saying Russ is weak or anything, but there is nothing so far to suggest he is so much better than most of his brothers to warrant making that kind of claim about his one-on-one abilities. All the primarchs were very close in terms of combat, that external factors make a HUGE difference IMO. For example, I think a fresh Angron vs fresh Russ will see Angron victorious. But say Angron after he fought Guilliman on Nuceria (assuming Lorgar didn't do the whole turn-him-into-a-giant-monster thing afterwards) vs a fresh Russ and Russ would win.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I meant that as an example of the wolves not bothering with escalation. OTT was the first choice - against other legions, that'd be an advantage. Until the other legions realised and retaliated. IMO, that'd be the best way to take out a legion - a decisive strike to start (Like istvaan)
I think the DA, Ultras and Fists would've been unwilling at first - the wolves had no such compunction.
You're right - Magnus wouldn't have wanted to be executioner. I still think his legion would've been fantastic at it :laugh:

When was Ferrus considered for warmaster? I've completely missed that.
My main thought on the IH was that in the heresy, they aren't represented well - I think it's Angel Exterminatus where it even says that the IH ship in that book fought a NL cruiser and the IH won because they had a raven guard on board who said something along the lines of 'have you ever considered *not* just charging in?'...
I want to see them do something good/cool - to show why the IH are an effective force.

What was the nifty device the DA used for the sneak attack? I read that one a while back and I just thought it was the DA's getting their moment of awesome - sounds like I've missed a bit 

The Alpha's were very successful legion to legion, but in a primarch fight (which appears to be mandatory for every heresy book with the primarchs in...) I don't think they'd hold out as well. I'm thinking of the older fluff where Guilliaman killed Alpharius - when he caught up to him, he just dropped him. Although now it might've been omegon. Or just an Alpha legionaire. Or maybe Guiliman was Alpharius (twirls mustache) 
It'd be a good fight (definitely worth reading) if Al and Om were both there though. If there wasn't a need to have a narrative drawn out primarch fight, they'd have been among the best. Cos a primarch would've just been killed with a shot to the head when he wasn't expecting it. No long drawn out fight, just blam and on to the next job :laugh:

And yes the last point is definitely opinion -IMO Russ's schtick is fighting, the same as Angrons. Guilliman's is being the universes greatest organiser, Vulkans is being unkillable etc. So I think the wolves being executioners means that they can write more Russ vs ? fights to show him off. 
Thats why these threads go on for as long as they do - everyone has different thoughts 




1vs1 - I think Curze is winning the primarch fights so far. He's fought and beat (and lost to) The Lion, he fought Lion and Guilliman at the same time and would've managed to kill them but for plot device etc, He gave Dorn a thrashing (although Dorn wasn't expecting it) he made Corax run away and I bet he'd count all of Vulkans deaths separately :laugh:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

WHY THE FUCK DO PRIMARCH'S NEED TO HAVE "A SHTICK"

They're not making a fucking bank heist film, there isn't a "tech guy", "explosives guy", "getaway driver" etc. These are essentially the epitomy of gods of war.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

That'd be an awesome thread :laugh:
Which primarch would do what in a bank heist...*shudder.

They don't need schtick, but they've got it.
How many threads on the forums are about pigeonholing/labelling primarchs?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> When was Ferrus considered for warmaster? I've completely missed that.


Well, it's mainly based off what Guilliman said to the Lion in _The Unremembered Empire_. He mentions that Horus didn't care that he beat Dorn, Guilliman or Ferrus (these names he mentions specifically) for the spot, but that he really cared about getting the position above the Lion. I just think he wouldn't specifically have mentioned Ferrus by name if he hadn't merited legitimate consideration for the position.



Gret79 said:


> What was the nifty device the DA used for the sneak attack? I read that one a while back and I just thought it was the DA's getting their moment of awesome - sounds like I've missed a bit


They take possession of that weird sentient warp engine thing that made traveling around and navigating much easier than it did for others. I will have to check to see in which story this happens, as I can't exactly recall which one it is right now.



Gret79 said:


> 1vs1 - I think Curze is winning the primarch fights so far. He's fought and beat (and lost to) The Lion, he fought Lion and Guilliman at the same time and would've managed to kill them but for plot device etc, He gave Dorn a thrashing (although Dorn wasn't expecting it) he made Corax run away and I bet he'd count all of Vulkans deaths separately :laugh:




I disagree that he would have killed both of them. He was holding them off. That's it. Guilliman had in fact just scored multiple hits on him before he detonated the bombs. And the wound Curze gave the Lion just seemed to piss him off really. It took him out of the fight for a handful of seconds at best. Also, Corax didn't run in fear of Curze. In fact, he openly states at a later point that he was confident that he could have killed Curze, and regrets not staying to do just that. And considering in both the actual "fair" fights Curze had with Vulkan the Salamanders primarch pretty much smacked him around like a golf ball, I would hardly say that Curze has any legit victories over him.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.


History contradicts that assertion many times over. Time and again, we've seen how forces that enjoyed psychological advantages were able to trump enemies with comparable numbers and equipment. Right off the top of my head, one of the most famous examples would be the Spartans prior to Leuctra and Mantinea. Their equipment didn't differ in any significant way from that of other 5th and 4th century Greek hoplites (they actually had smaller swords - que the jokes!). Nor did their phalanx differ from those fielded by other Greek powers (Epaminondas, the first general to inflict meaningful defeats on them, revolutionized the phalanx against them). For the better part of three centuries, though, the Spartans were able to consistently outperform their opponents in large part due to psychology: their mindset was what set them apart from their contemporaries.

Similar examples can be found in the late 17th and early 16th centuries throughout much Europe - when technological parity was common enough. Ostensibly comparable armies were often separated by the mentality, psychology, morale, etc. of their troops: that sense of self-belief, wherein a warrior's belief that they are superior to their opponent translates to superior performance on the battlefield.



> And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines.


A built in advantage? No, I don't think so either. An advantage that came over time? Perhaps. The Space Wolves certainly express such a mentality and motivation. You can call it self-delusion or genuine confidence, but they are not shy about expressing what they feel their worth and ability is.

By contrast, consider how many times warriors from other Legions expressed disbelief, shock, dismay, and even confusion when confronted by the prospect of fighting other Space Marines. The effect this might have had on their performance may very well have been miniscule. That difference may very well be enough for beings who are able to take advantage of fractions of seconds (see _Know No Fear_) in combat, though.

I liken the Space Wolves and their purported role to the modern Minotaurs. When you get past the fact that they have the newest equipment the Imperium is fielding, a powerful fleet, and a significant complement of armored vehicles, they really aren't more powerful than a First Founding Chapter - less powerful in at least three cases that I can think of, in fact. It's their motivation and mentality that sets them apart. The Space Wolves may very well have taken horrendous losses in purging one or both of the Missing Legions - perhaps that's why they are fewer in number than they should be. Victory in just the first of those campaigns would have given them invaluable experience and confidence for any subsequent such action.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, it's mainly based off what Guilliman said to the Lion in _The Unremembered Empire_. He mentions that Horus didn't care that he beat Dorn, Guilliman or Ferrus (these names he mentions specifically) for the spot, but that he really cared about getting the position above the Lion. I just think he wouldn't specifically have mentioned Ferrus by name if he hadn't merited legitimate consideration for the position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I meant Curze would've blown them both up - luckily they were saved by...plot device 
Corax got all brave *after* he ran away :laugh:
Curze would count Vulkans deaths as separate primarch kills :victory:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. ?


Their natural senses have been described as being superior to the ones provided by their helms. It's hard not to say that physically they have the edge over their cousins in some aspects.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> I meant Curze would've blown them both up - luckily they were saved by...plot device
> Corax got all brave *after* he ran away :laugh:
> Curze would count Vulkans deaths as separate primarch kills :victory:




Well, blowing them up hardly counts as a one-on-one... errr... two... duel victory. 

Corax goes into a lot of detail as to why he fled. He recognised how similar in appearance etc. he is to Curze, and that unnerved him, not the prospect of actually fighting the Night Haunter. Also, you have to consider the fact that the Raven Guard were, along with the other loyalists, trying to salvage some kind of ordered retreat after the betrayal. Corax had a duty first and foremost to lead his legion. He had to prioritise. Getting bogged down fighting 2 primarchs (as Lorgar was still also there) would not have been a solid tactical move at the time. For all he knew more traitor primarchs could have joined the fray by then, and then Corvus would have been royally fucked.

As to the last point, I actually doubt that to be honest. He seems obsessed with actually killing Vulkan once and for all, and sees it as an unfinished job. He is almost obsessive compulsive in his need to kill Vulkan permanently, by the time they are both in Ultramar.




Malus Darkblade said:


> Their natural senses have been described as being superior to the ones provided by their helms. It's hard not to say that physically they have the edge over their cousins in some aspects.


And the Thousand Sons had psyker powers.
And the Salamanders had super vision (thanks to McNeil in _Angel Exterminatus_).
And the Imperial Fists were more resistant to mental degradation (again according to McNeil in the same novel).
The Death Guard have, on a number of occasions, been depicted as being tougher than the average marine.
And so on and so on.

Having slightly superior senses to the other legions hardly makes them more ideal to fight them. So I wouldn't use that as an example of "physical superiority" over other legions that would justify them being picked as Executioners.

I could argue that all the legions with stable geneseed, and who didn't have the risk of turning into mutant werewolf monsters, had the edge over the Wolves in some aspects.

I am personally more inclined to side with Phoebus's views with regards to why the Wolves were chosen. Psychology and motivation, as opposed to any physical reason. A good example of this is during the Siege of Prospero. Ahriman and the Sons actually get the drop on the Wolves during one encounter but, because they hesitate for that split second while considering the fact that they are about to open fire on fellow marines, the Wolves get off the first shots.

_A Thousand Sons_, Chapter 27, pg. 486



> Astartes were at war with one another, and the sheer horror of that fact cost Ahriman a fraction of a second.
> It was all the Space Wolves needed.
> Though the Thousand Sons had been forewarned, still the Space Wolves fired first.


 The Wolves didn't hesitate where the Thousand Sons did (and where most other legions probably would have hesitated as well).


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> As to the last point, I actually doubt that to be honest. He seems obsessed with actually killing Vulkan once and for all, and sees it as an unfinished job. He is almost obsessive compulsive in his need to kill Vulkan permanently, by the time they are both in Ultramar.


Thats a good point :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ignoring the other significant misconceptions for a minute:



Reaper45 said:


> Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans


The Alpha Legion did not avoid direct combat, not at all. 

As for the general discussion concerning which Legion was best suited to be the Emperor's executioners, I think the Space Wolves were the only logical choice (If indeed a conscious choice was made). 

According to the latest timeline we have access to, the two Lost Legions suffered their "separate tragedies" 12 and 16 years before Alpharius even assumed command of the XXth Legion. This essentially rules the Alpha Legion out of the running as a sanction against two Legions was required prior to Alpharius even being discovered. 

Without analysing each Legion in turn, the reasons I would suggest the Space Wolves as the natural choice is primarily because of the "motivation and psychology" angle as advocated by _Phoebus_ (who has argued his case well). Running parallel to that I also think unflinching loyalty was a major factor. Would Sanguinius, Guilliman, Horus or Dorn have conducted a war against another Legion? Perhaps, but they certainly wouldn't have done without question or hesitation, and that's why the Emperor relied on the Wolves above all others in certain respects.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I cannot remember; is there information regarding Alpharius' discovery in the current canon (as in, was it 30years before?) And when I mean current canon, I do not mean a loosely collated bit of information written during the 3rd edition phase (I think even prior to the 3.5e CSM Codex), which has been consistently overwritten and completely ignored several times in the past;

After all, since that was written, we have had a new Primarch added into the mix, the Sons of Horus have changed their colours, and the Emperor's Children have gone from 30 Lord Commanders to 2.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I cannot remember; is there information regarding Alpharius' discovery in the current canon (as in, was it 30years before?) And when I mean current canon, I do not mean a loosely collated bit of information written during the 3rd edition phase (I think even prior to the 3.5e CSM Codex), which has been consistently overwritten and completely ignored several times in the past;
> 
> After all, since that was written, we have had a new Primarch added into the mix, the Sons of Horus have changed their colours, and the Emperor's Children have gone from 30 Lord Commanders to 2.


_Horus Heresy: Betrayal_ has Alpharius assuming command of his Legion in 981.M30 - 24 years prior to Isstvan III.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Why did I not think to check there? Anyhow. 

While I'm not suggesting that Horus had any say so in the matter of removing opposing Legions, but Horus had used the Alpha Legion (alongside IH, and Night Lords, both of whom he thought would follow him later on, so were loyal) on the Terentius campaign.

I think Ullanor had already happened? If so how likely was it that the Emperor, by proxy could have had Horus take command of the legion? Horus, henceforth knowing of the SW's capabilities then engineered magnus's and there's Mutually Assured Destruction.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I think the Night Lords would have been a good choice for executioners, furthermore I have my belief that Konrad Curze was the original executioner and or he was one with Russ.

When the chaos gods were showing Lorgar visions of potential futures, one of them showed the Emperor sending executioners after him. It goes on to say that Curze is the one that rips out his heart and kills him, along with Russ there.

Perhaps Curze was the original executioner, and ties in with what he says "that the Emperor sanctioned what I have done". Perhaps Curze killed/eliminated the first wayward legion under the command of the Emperor, however he may have done so in a unfavorable way (in the eyes of the emperor). Thus the Emperor utilized Russ to take care of the second wayward legion rather than Konrad Curze.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> I think the Night Lords would have been a good choice for executioners, furthermore I have my belief that Konrad Curze was the original executioner and or he was one with Russ.
> 
> When the chaos gods were showing Lorgar visions of potential futures, one of them showed the Emperor sending executioners after him. It goes on to say that Curze is the one that rips out his heart and kills him, along with Russ there.
> 
> Perhaps Curze was the original executioner, and ties in with what he says "that the Emperor sanctioned what I have done". Perhaps Curze killed/eliminated the first wayward legion under the command of the Emperor, however he may have done so in a unfavorable way (in the eyes of the emperor). Thus the Emperor utilized Russ to take care of the second wayward legion rather than Konrad Curze.


And yet moments after the vision Lorgar saw of Curze ripping out his heart, the Changer of Ways showed him visions of Vulcan disemboweling Mortarian due to his vocal support against psykers.

You forget Lux that what Chaos says should be taken with a grain of pepper.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Yes, lets. But this time, lets try to be a little less biased eh?
> 
> Exactly, perfection in everything they do. Every stroke, perfect, every movement, perfect, every tactic, perfect. Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.
> Doesn't really mater as their box is absolutely massive and contains almost every possible scenario. They failed to think the impossible, but quickly fixed that mistake once it was revealed to be possible and then went so far as to run simulations against other Loyalists (something no one else did).
> ...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ignoring the other significant misconceptions for a minute:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But it wasn't alpharious main tactic, he wanted to prove himself to his brothers, most stuff he did was to prove himself, do you honestly think if he was ordered to kill say gulliman he'd do to in the most efficient way possible? Or would he perform a seriously complex plan that involves impersonating members of the ultramarines and making it obvious what was going to happen before it happened?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If he was ordered to Kill Guilliman, he'd do it in whatever way was necessary to achieve the other secondary objectives; such as legion crippling, stranding war vessels, redirecting/removing supply lines. Encourage the belief that another legion had a hand in the murder by putting it on them; hell possibly even colluding with those who've fought alongside him and trust them a lot; Sons of Horus, say, who've campaigned, have them provide the killing blow, or at least be present at the scene of Guillimans death.

The easiest way would probably just by disabling the drives of Guilliman's fleet, crippling them all, destroying all the escape hatches, and then forcing Guilliman into a star. Or having a suicide squad destroy the Gellar field while within the Warp.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.


Comparing legion against legion combat to a one-on-one duel that Lucius expected to go purely down to swordplay is like comparing apples and oranges. And if you insist on using it as an argument, then I can point out that the fact that Loken did whatever it took to win after realising he couldn't beat Lucius straight up, adapting and figuring out an alternative strategy and then describing it as the "Luna Wolf way", then it disproves your other point where you implied that the Luna Wolves are one trick ponies.



Reaper45 said:


> Clearly they failed, there's tons of times where the ultramarines screwed up on blatantly obvious things because of their arrogance.


Care to provide references to these "tons" of times where they screwed "blatantly obvious things" up due to "arrogance"? They got caught off guard because they were blindsided by an enemy they never expected to have to face.



Reaper45 said:


> It would seem most planets have some sort of fortress, there's nothing saying a legion would realize having a single fortress is a bad idea, honsou realized this, I don't believe he was the first iron warrior to think this.


How does this in any way address the point MEQinc raised with regards to the skills of the Imperial Fists?



Reaper45 said:


> Aside from isstivan most of his tactics are gambles. Or are done because someone insults him.


So Horus became regarded as one if not the greatest tactician among the primarchs, led the most successful legion and was named Warmaster through roughly 2 centuries of gambling and being baited into action by insults? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?



Reaper45 said:


> The more complicated the part the worse things get.


Can you explain how a complicated plan automatically makes "things" (whatever they are) worse?



Reaper45 said:


> True, but they aren't reigned in. They have no control of themselves.


Actually, to do what the Night Lords did requires a lot of precision and control. It isn't a question of lack of control. It's a situation of them being a bunch of twisted bastards who _enjoyed_ doing what they were doing.



Reaper45 said:


> The world eaters are described of attacking anyone except for other world eaters when under the nails influence.


Yet we have a number of examples of them and some of their battles (including an entire novel), where they don't simply attack every non-World Eater while under the influence of the nails.



Reaper45 said:


> "Dishonorable tactics" Or what the wolves do in prosporo seems to work.


Actually, one very well placed bolter round can do the job. No "dishonorable tactics" needed. And the effectiveness of their tactics on Prospero is questionable, seeing as they didn't actually manage to completely wipe out the Thousand Sons or Magnus.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The wolves would come to heel after the fighting had stopped.


Everyone 'came to heel' after the fighting stopped. What varied was when they considered the fighting to have stopped. Looking at it this way we can see that the Wolves are actually one of the more reluctant Legions, accepting nothing less than complete destruction.



> I think the Ultra's, DA and IF were too honourable to fight other legions at first until they realised it was absolutely nescessary.


So the fact that the Wolves are overly eager to attack their fellow Astartes is a point in their favour? Whilst it is simultaneously being held against the World Eaters?



> The Iron Warriors couldn't have done it as they were split round the galaxy, guarding/garrisoning....setting up for the heresy.


Logically, if the Emperor had intended for them to be the Executioners he wouldn't have had them on garrison duty.



> Small legion, so they were more expendable - the wolves losing wouldn't be the same as Rogal Dorn or Roboute's legions losing.


If the Wolves are the only Legion capable of being the Executioners than they are by definition not expendable. Indeed this raises the question of why they were deployed to front-line duty in the first place. Losses there would potentially destroy their ability to preform their intended function. 



Phoebus said:


> History contradicts that assertion many times over. Time and again, we've seen how forces that enjoyed psychological advantages were able to trump enemies with comparable numbers and equipment.


Right. Obviously. Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. Any battle between two Space Marine Legions is not going to be one between Spartans and 'lesser' Greeks, it's going to be fought between two bands of Spartans. Space Marines are all trained and motivated to such a massive level that there simply isn't room for there to be much difference between Legions. It would be very, very difficult (if not impossible) to motivate one Legion above the others but it is very, very easy to equip them to fight other Legions. 



> The Space Wolves certainly express such a mentality and motivation. You can call it self-delusion or genuine confidence, but they are not shy about expressing what they feel their worth and ability is.


Thanks, I will call it self-delusion. :grin:



> The Space Wolves may very well have taken horrendous losses in purging one or both of the Missing Legions - perhaps that's why they are fewer in number than they should be. Victory in just the first of those campaigns would have given them invaluable experience and confidence for any subsequent such action.


Assuming of course that the Wolves actually played any part in the separate tragedies those Legions befell. Seperate tragedies that clearly did not prepare a single other Legion for the concept of inter-Astartes violence.



Chompy Bits said:


> The Wolves didn't hesitate where the Thousand Sons did (and where most other legions probably would have hesitated as well).


I'd question whether the other Legions would've hesitated. We're shown repeatedly that the Thousands Sons are both one of the least likely to engage in violence and one of the most introspective of all the Legions. Those two traits make them likely to hesitate. 

On the other hand we have accounts of Alpha Legion, Night Lord and World Eater warriors actually looking forward to and enjoying fighting other Astartes. Would they hesitate? Would the unflinchingly obedient Imperial Fists, or just generally unflinching Death Guard? 



Reaper45 said:


> Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.


Lucius was arrogant and Loken cheated. Hardly an exemplar of how the Emperor's Children fight. Look elsewhere in that book and you'll see descriptions of the sort of perfection I'm talking about. Perfectly intersecting fields of fire, perfect covering fire and so on.




> Aside from isstivan most of his tactics are gambles.


So aside from one of the most brilliant master-strokes of all time. And of course that ignores a) warfare is always a gamble and b) Horus' tactics are never poor gambles. 



> Or are done because someone insults him.


Unlike the perfectly in control Russ you mean.




> True, but they aren't reigned in. They have no control of themselves.


The Night Lords repeatedly demonstrate more control than the Wolves do. It takes far more control to skin a man alive than it does to hack him into pieces.

And until the Emperor betrayed them they were reigned in. Don't believe me? Just look at what they do once they're well and truly off the leash.



> "Dishonorable tactics" Or what the wolves do in prosporo seems to work.


Dishonourable tactics? Like appealing to your enemy to surrender? That's what Russ did on Propero, he begged Magnus to surrender without a fight. Where was the Wolves legendary decisiveness then?




> Flanking angron while he's distracted by Russ isn't a charge now is it?


That's not what the Wolves did. What the Wolves did was charge at the World Eaters, get beaten back and regroup around their Primarch. 



> But it wasn't alpharious main tactic, he wanted to prove himself to his brothers, most stuff he did was to prove himself, do you honestly think if he was ordered to kill say gulliman he'd do to in the most efficient way possible? Or would he perform a seriously complex plan that involves impersonating members of the ultramarines and making it obvious what was going to happen before it happened?


I don't see any reason to think Alpharius would make it apparent what was happening. He's not a super-villain. To date most of his plans against the loyal Primarchs haven't even revealed his presence, let alone his goal.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Assuming of course that the Wolves actually played any part in the separate tragedies those Legions befell. Seperate tragedies that clearly did not prepare a single other Legion for the concept of inter-Astartes violence.


This is what makes me think the Wolves' had little to do with the 'separate tragedies' of the missing legions. 

Throughout the novels and source books relating to the Horus heresy we're told again and again how incomprehensible the idea of Space Marine on Space Marine warfare is. Betrayal was considered an impossibility, beyond the realms of fantasy. It was an unprecedented act. 

Surely this belief wouldn't have existed had the Wolves' 'executed' two other legions.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> Everyone 'came to heel' after the fighting stopped. What varied was when they considered the fighting to have stopped. Looking at it this way we can see that the Wolves are actually one of the more reluctant Legions, accepting nothing less than complete destruction.
> 
> So the fact that the Wolves are overly eager to attack their fellow Astartes is a point in their favour? Whilst it is simultaneously being held against the World Eaters?


The Wolves weren't overly eager, they just did as they were told. Thats the reason why Angron called them dogs not wolves. They would also see any war they were part of through to the end. Unlike the World Eaters, who when the dust settled would be still wandering round looking for something else to kill.
The World Eaters were eager to spill anyones blood.
Thats why Horus chose them to massacre a civilian population.
When the Wolves attacked prospero, Russ's face during the Magnus showdown was 'wracked with grief'.

In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face? :laugh:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face? :laugh:


Considering the fact that being anywhere near a psyker massively increased his already intense and painful headaches, being near Magnus might have given Angron a "sad face". Or as close to one as he is able to have. Either that, or a nosebleed that would put any perverted male anime character to shame. :laugh:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> Considering the fact that being anywhere near a psyker massively increased his already intense and painful headaches, being near Magnus might have given Angron a "sad face". Or as close to one as he is able to have. Either that, or a nosebleed that would put any perverted male anime character to shame. :laugh:


Thats not really a sadface though, more a 

'omgglarbleihatepsykerstheygivemeaheadacheevencrackwon'tshiftcomeheresoIcanmurderyoutodeath' face :laugh:


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Rems said:


> This is what makes me think the Wolves' had little to do with the 'separate tragedies' of the missing legions.
> 
> Throughout the novels and source books relating to the Horus heresy we're told again and again how incomprehensible the idea of Space Marine on Space Marine warfare is. Betrayal was considered an impossibility, beyond the realms of fantasy. It was an unprecedented act.
> 
> Surely this belief wouldn't have existed had the Wolves' 'executed' two other legions.


Now that you mention it, I don't remember reading any incredulity on the part of the Wolves that Astares were attacking other Astares... the UM, BA, IF, TS, IH, and RG, sure, but not the Wolves. This could also be one of the many reasons the Wolves were tasked with the observe-and-execute role in the loyalist legions... they were the only legion who had already worked through the brother-on-brother violence on Prospero and with the previous legions.

I also think the Wolves were fit for the executioner role due to the way they interacted with reality. It wasn't a question of morals, philosophy, or even pleasure for them... they followed what they saw as the natural order of the universe to it's utter end and that included striving to overcome any opponent, be it brother, xenos, or heretic.

Many of the previous posts discussed the Wolves working as a team and what sets them apart. One observation I didn't notice is the described instinctual interaction the Wolves have when working as a team, in part through their sense of smell, but it's more than just training and conditioning, its reacting to each other on a subconsious level that enhances the training and conditioning.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The Wolves weren't overly eager, they just did as they were told.


Ah, but they also did things they weren't told to. The Night of the Wolf is an incident of Marine-on-Marine violence preformed entirely because the Wolves wanted to. They were not told to sanction the World Eaters. They were not given permission to attack the World Eaters. But they wanted to. So they did. And they suffered for it. Sounds like over-eagerness to me.



> They would also see any war they were part of through to the end. Unlike the World Eaters, who when the dust settled would be still wandering round looking for something else to kill.


I dunno, seems like killing everyone is an end to any war. 

On the other hand there are ways to end wars before that. The Wolves were one of two Legions that were unwilling to recognize those ways.



> In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face? :laugh:


So Russ' reluctance to kill a brother (a brother he didn't like) is a reason in favour of him being the executioner?



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Now that you mention it, I don't remember reading any incredulity on the part of the Wolves that Astares were attacking other Astares... the UM, BA, IF, TS, IH, and RG, sure, but not the Wolves.


You missed the point entirely.

Everyone knows what happened to the two lost Legions. If everyone knew that those Legions had betrayed the Emperor and fought other Marines then they would not act as if such things were impossible. They do act as though those things are impossible, therefore they do not know those things have happened before. Therefore the fates of the lost Legions involved neither them turning against the Emperor nor the Wolves fighting them.



> I also think the Wolves were fit for the executioner role due to the way they interacted with reality. It wasn't a question of morals, philosophy, or even pleasure for them... they followed what they saw as the natural order of the universe to it's utter end and that included striving to overcome any opponent, be it brother, xenos, or heretic.


"What they saw as the natural order" *is* their philosophy. Every Legion did what they believed was right based on their personal interpretation of how the galaxy worked. Every Legion enjoyed doing what they felt was right. The Wolves are no different. Everything they did was something their philosophy and morals told them was right, and something they enjoyed.

One of the things common to the philosophies of all the Legions was a belief in striving to overcome any obstacle (this belief was absolutely central to Imperial Fist and Salamander world-views). That's why every single Legion overcame every opponent placed before them. The Wolves are not special in their ability to do this (and indeed arguably trail behind several other Legions in their ability to do so).



> Many of the previous posts discussed the Wolves working as a team and what sets them apart. One observation I didn't notice is the described instinctual interaction the Wolves have when working as a team, in part through their sense of smell, but it's more than just training and conditioning, its reacting to each other on a subconsious level that enhances the training and conditioning.


You mean like how First Claw behaves in the Night Lords series? Or how every marine ever behaves in their units? Ooh, the Woves can smell better than everyone else. How the fuck does that equate to them working better as a team?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> Ah, but they also did things they weren't told to. The Night of the Wolf is an incident of Marine-on-Marine violence preformed entirely because the Wolves wanted to. They were not told to sanction the World Eaters. They were not given permission to attack the World Eaters. But they wanted to. So they did. And they suffered for it. Sounds like over-eagerness to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Night of the Wolf is an attempt by the wolves to end the mindless killing by the World Eaters. They were trying to help the World Eaters realise that their way of fighting was flawed,that the legion was broken and worthless but it wasn't too late to turn things around. Angron was too stupid to listen. Even Lorgar agrees with Russ.
Killing everyone will end a war. But the World Eaters wouldn't stop there. They'd find other people who weren't in the war to kill once their blood was up. Innocent people who had nothing to do with it became fair game.
Russ's reluctance to kill a brother makes him a better choice than Angron. A man who doesn't want to kill and does so because it's his duty will stop when the mission is completed.
Angron being the executioner? that'd be more along the lines of

"Right he's dead. Who's next? You looked at me funny, you DIE!. Right he's dead...You were stood next to him, DIE!...I've got a photo of you stood with him DIE! You once accepted a cake from him, DIE!" etc...

I don't think Russ was the only primarch that could've been the 'executioner' - I think the Lion would've been good, Magnus would've found it really easy and Vulkan would've been hilarious - he'd keep coming back till he won :laugh:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The Night of the Wolf is an attempt by the wolves to end the mindless killing by the World Eaters. They were trying to help the World Eaters realise that their way of fighting was flawed,that the legion was broken and worthless but it wasn't too late to turn things around. Angron was too stupid to listen. Even Lorgar agrees with Russ.


That's what no one seems to grasp. It wasn't about being stupid. Angron didn't give a shit about being surrounded and killed (and considering what we've seen primarchs capable of, it's debatable whether he would actually have been killed there) because he didn't care whether he lived or died. He wanted to die on Nuceria with his fellow gladiators, and hated the Emperor for taking that away from him. And considering they still schooled the Wolves in a direct fight, as well as had entire systems surrender rather than face them, I'd hardly call the World Eaters "worthless".



Gret79 said:


> Killing everyone will end a war. But the World Eaters wouldn't stop there. They'd find other people who weren't in the war to kill once their blood was up. Innocent people who had nothing to do with it became fair game.


Oh, like the Wolves bombing the shit out of Prospero, ignoring the fact that they might be blowing up innocent civilians in the process. There are other examples of Wolves killing _everything_ too during a campaign, in a similar manner to the World Eaters sometimes did. Throughout the HH series there are consistent occurrences of parallels and comparisons being drawn between the World Eaters and Space Wolves, by marines from other legions. Why would they do that if the two legions didn't have a similar rep? And the World Eaters seemed more than able to get their shit together and calm down on Armatura after the battle was won.



Gret79 said:


> Angron being the executioner? that'd be more along the lines of
> 
> "Right he's dead. Who's next? You looked at me funny, you DIE!. Right he's dead...You were stood next to him, DIE!...I've got a photo of you stood with him DIE! You once accepted a cake from him, DIE!" etc...


I assume you are joking here. At least I hope you are. Otherwise, you are blowing Angron's violent urges WAY out of proportion.



Gret79 said:


> Vulkan would've been hilarious - he'd keep coming back till he won


Vulkan is no joke (despite Kyme's best efforts). Seemingly significantly stronger than any of his brothers, unable to die (permanently at least), and from his recent showings, quite handy in a fight. I mean consider the fact that Curze was stalemating two primarchs at once in a duel, but Vulkan, even totally out of his mind and not fully regenerated, seemed more than a match for Curze at the end of _The Unremembered Empire_.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> That's what no one seems to grasp. It wasn't about being stupid. Angron didn't give a shit about being surrounded and killed (and considering what we've seen primarchs capable of, it's debatable whether he would actually have been killed there) because he didn't care whether he lived or died. He wanted to die on Nuceria with his fellow gladiators, and hated the Emperor for taking that away from him. And considering they still schooled the Wolves in a direct fight, as well as had entire systems surrender rather than face them, I'd hardly call the World Eaters "worthless".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The last one was a joke 

The rest of it?

I was quoting the author...



ADB on Bolter and Chainsword said:


> I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the _one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died_; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."


And Vulkan chasing people would've been worse than the terminator - a completely unkillable primarch, whos stronger than you and will never die...
You'd have to win every time. He'd only have to win once.
He'd have easily been the one of the best 'executioners' amonst the primarchs - I just find it funny that he was also one of the most human. Can you imagine what how much damage he'd have done to the loyalists if he'd turned?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The last one was a joke
> 
> The rest of it?
> 
> ...


Yet he also said it was 50/50. Despite the Wolves' "victory". And his quote clearly states Angron overpowered Russ, which should put an end to the "Russ let him win" bit. 

And I'm sorry, but I still think that Russ engaging the World Eaters in a fight, thereby taking the risk of devastating and crippling two entire legions, simply to prove a point, is idiotic. All this does is to make me think that Russ is a moron. And if Angron's observations before Russ sounds the retreat is anything to go by, it was never supposed to go as far as it did, and that Russ was unsanctioned to act and overstepped his bounds.

Also, despite what ADB said, the way he actually wrote the book shows that the initial intention of Russ was not to teach any lessons, but to get Angron and his legion to submit to Russ's authority and come back to Terra with him. Russ even makes that demand almost word for word during the verbal part of their encounter. I also still think the way he wrote Angron as well makes it clear Angron cares nothing for his own life. He even says to Lorgar at one stage that he "died" on Nuceria and that everything after that was "meaningless". And when the Wolves have Angron surrounded he still says that death holds no "terror" for him and that he might even "welcome" it. And I'm not going by any personal interpretations of the fluff here, I am going by the direct words of the actual characters.



Gret79 said:


> Can you imagine what how much damage he'd have done to the loyalists if he'd turned?


Considering he is strong enough to push vehicles that weigh 300+ tons around and fast enough to keep up with Curze, I'd imagine that if he went on a genuine, indiscriminate rampage there would be little more than blood smears left in his wake.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Right. Obviously. Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. Any battle between two Space Marine Legions is not going to be one between Spartans and 'lesser' Greeks, it's going to be fought between two bands of Spartans.


You're missing my point.

There wasn't some physically quantifiable difference between the Spartans and other Greeks. Well, between the Spartans and some bush-league Polis whose hoplites only got together a couple of times a year to drill, sure. But against their primary enemies before the League - the Argives, the Arcadians, the Tegeans? Or their latter enemies in the Athenians and the Thebans? The only meaningful difference was psychology.

Where that trait is concerned, we have verifiable evidence that the Legions are not the same. Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Night Lords possess the same esprit de corps and comraderie as, say, the Ultramarines. The Word Bearers were more loyal _down to their DNA._ Those are just a couple of examples, off the top of my head.



> Space Marines are all trained and motivated to such a massive level that there simply isn't room for there to be much difference between Legions. It would be very, very difficult (if not impossible) to motivate one Legion above the others ...


It's _hardly_ impossible. We have proof that this was possible just on the basis of a Primarch's training programs. We also have proof that the Emperor could tamper them to make this happen.



> ... but it is very, very easy to equip them to fight other Legions.


But now you're asking me to ignore known, supported factors in favor of conjecture.

For instance, we know full well that Horus was able to sway the supple process to ensure that his Legions were the best equipped (e.g., Mk IV Power Armour) prior to the Heresy kicking off. Is there even a hint of this being done for the Executioners? Even if there was, I'd be curious if it adds up to even a fraction of the heavy emphasis on the Wolves.



> Thanks, I will call it self-delusion. :grin:


Call it what you will. The fact of the matter is, they believe that this is what their duty is.



> Assuming of course that the Wolves actually played any part in the separate tragedies those Legions befell. Seperate tragedies that clearly did not prepare a single other Legion for the concept of inter-Astartes violence.





Rems said:


> This is what makes me think the Wolves' had little to do with the 'separate tragedies' of the missing legions.
> 
> Throughout the novels and source books relating to the Horus heresy we're told again and again how incomprehensible the idea of Space Marine on Space Marine warfare is. Betrayal was considered an impossibility, beyond the realms of fantasy. It was an unprecedented act.
> 
> Surely this belief wouldn't have existed had the Wolves' 'executed' two other legions.


With respect, I think this approach takes a lot for granted.

To begin with, it assumes that the characters who express incredulity at the idea of Astartes fighting Astartes had knowledge of the Sanctions and how they were carried out. Some Word Bearers certainly don't seem as surprised by that prospect as certain Luna Wolves. The rumors - which even those discussing them don't universally agree on - don't even indicate that the Space Wolves would have wiped out one of those Legions in their entirety.

Beyond that, it depends on the idea that this storyline was completely mapped out from the very get go. You're assuming that Abnett or McNeil (or whoever it was) foresaw the extent of the "Executioners" plot angle when they wrote about how unfeasible Legion versus Legion warfare was. I could just as easily argue that, at the time, it was more important for the authors to play up the shock factor of Legion fighting Legion than to be completely honest about the events that preceded the Heresy. :wink:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> Yet he also said it was 50/50. Despite the Wolves' "victory". And his quote clearly states Angron overpowered Russ, which should put an end to the "Russ let him win" bit.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but I still think that Russ engaging the World Eaters in a fight, thereby taking the risk of devastating and crippling two entire legions, simply to prove a point, is idiotic. All this does is to make me think that Russ is a moron. And if Angron's observations before Russ sounds the retreat is anything to go by, it was never supposed to go as far as it did, and that Russ was unsanctioned to act and overstepped his bounds.
> 
> ...


I don't think Russ could've won. If he beat Angron, Angron would just get back up and try harder - that would've ended in a primarchs death. 
I'm also not sure he lost, He made his point, which was all he could've done. I don't think either of them 'won'. Russ got slapped and Angron got to carry being Angron and was completely unable to see what Russ was talking about.
Russ not being sanctioned to carry out a primarch execution would've ended up in Russ himself being sanctioned. Who executes the 'executioner?' :grin:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> Russ not being sanctioned to carry out a primarch execution would've ended up in Russ himself being sanctioned. Who executes the 'executioner?' :grin:


A team of lame-ass assassins that seemed to have been a straight-up ripoff of every action movie crew/team ever? Oh wait... never mind.

Or Vulkan... just tell him Russ threw a cat up a tree. :laugh:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> A team of lame-ass assassins that seemed to have been a straight-up ripoff of every action movie crew/team? Oh wait... never mind.


:laugh: I've just spat tea over my desk...


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> Or Vulkan... just tell him Russ threw a cat up a tree. :laugh:


Also :laugh:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The Emperor would have called Curze "My son, I know I've sent countless assassins at you but think of them as training. Just as they attempting to kill you taught you what an assassin is, I now need you to assassinate Russ. Emperor speed my son!"


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Id say, out of all the legions and primarchs, the modus operandi of the white scars best fits that of executioner and hunter.
If i was the Emperor and wanted to sanction Russ, i would send the Khan.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> Id say, out of all the legions and primarchs, the modus operandi of the white scars best fits that of executioner and hunter.
> If i was the Emperor and wanted to sanction Russ, i would send the Khan.


In terms of combat ability, I would generally agree.

However, the Khagan and his White Scars were an unknown quantity. It would have been a significant risk to trust them with such a monumental task. The Khagan (at least to his own Legion) quite openly railed against the shackles imposed on him by the Imperium and thought of the Emperor as a tyrant. In my opinion, the primary trait required for an executioner would have been utmost dedication and loyalty to the Emperor (something which the Khagan lacked).


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

*Konrad Curze*
On a more serious note I think the Night Haunter with his NightLords would have been the perfect executioner, and the one called upon to sanction Russ. Keep in mind this is under the premise that Konrad Curze did not rebel, and that the Emperor/Malcador did not leave Konrad out to dry after authorizing his actions but not wanting to take responsibility for them when public favor did not approve. 

If the Emperor would have openly backed Curze, I am confident Curze would have been one of the most loyal primarchs and do whatever the Emperor asked of him. Curze was already doing what ever the Emperor asked of him, he became the Emperor's public "bad guy" to draw the mass disapproval towards him and away from the Imperial government. Curze was already willing to do whatever his father asked of him, the Emperor just needed to show Curze the same loyalty that Curze showed him.

On another note for Curze to keep his legion "pure" and close to his ideals, he should have garrisoned a night lord council on each conquered planet. This council would be the "Night Haunter" of that planet and keep it in line, thus ensuring stable, loyal, and psychologically "pure" recruits.

*Khan the Warhawk*
Khan was willing to do whatever was necessary to ensure his, and his legions survival. However the Khan was openly free spirited, he did not approve of being commanded by a superior power. These psychological traits of being extremely self centered, survival based, and defiant to authority would make him a very poor choice as the Imperial executioner.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In terms of combat ability, I would generally agree.
> 
> However, the Khagan and his White Scars were an unknown quantity. It would have been a significant risk to trust them with such a monumental task. The Khagan (at least to his own Legion) quite openly railed against the shackles imposed on him by the Imperium and thought of the Emperor as a tyrant. In my opinion, the primary trait required for an executioner would have been utmost dedication and loyalty to the Emperor (something which the Khagan lacked).


The psychological basis for which i determined that the Khan would be the best decision, is because he actually had little to no quarrel with either waging war against the Alpha legion, or the wolves, he was perfectly open to attacking and finishing any one of them off.

As for loyalty, While it may seem tenuous, i believe despite their differences (the Khan and the Emperor), the Khan stays true to his name as the war hawk, he will return to the hand that released him.
So long as there was a casus belli, i think he would have no problem killing Russ, that said, i doubt he would sanction for instance Magnus, unless Magnus did something truly horrific of which he had no doubts was done.

But yes, their general ethos of war seems to be the archetype of hunter and executioner.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> The Night of the Wolf is an attempt by the wolves to end the mindless killing by the World Eaters. They were trying to help the World Eaters realise that their way of fighting was flawed,that the legion was broken and worthless but it wasn't too late to turn things around. Angron was too stupid to listen. Even Lorgar agrees with Russ.


I've argued against this view earlier in the thread. Basically, there's no evidence that Russ' plan going in was to teach a lesson and lots of evidence that it wasn't. Further the lesson taught isn't really accurate and has negligible import to Angron. 



> Killing everyone will end a war. But the World Eaters wouldn't stop there. They'd find other people who weren't in the war to kill once their blood was up. Innocent people who had nothing to do with it became fair game.


When I said "killing everyone" I meant "every living soul on the planet", not simply soldiers. You are correct in saying that the World Eaters killed innocent people but you seem to be extrapolating an eagerness for war that didn't actually exist. In between war-zones the World Eaters were not constantly threatening the lives of innocents. They have repeatedly shown themselves to be able to co-operate with other Legions and humans, even inside a war-zone. On the other hand, the Wolves have also shown a disregard for innocent people, and have repeatedly condemned entire planets to death for unnecessary reasons.



> Russ's reluctance to kill a brother makes him a better choice than Angron. A man who doesn't want to kill and does so because it's his duty will stop when the mission is completed.


A man who doesn't want to kill will hesitate in preforming his duties. A man who doesn't want to kill will seek to avoid killing, even when ordered to do so. Russ hesitates, he attempts to circumvent his orders. How is this model behaviour for an executioner. 



Phoebus said:


> You're missing my point.
> 
> There wasn't some physically quantifiable difference between the Spartans and other Greeks. Well, between the Spartans and some bush-league Polis whose hoplites only got together a couple of times a year to drill, sure. But against their primary enemies before the League - the Argives, the Arcadians, the Tegeans? Or their latter enemies in the Athenians and the Thebans? The only meaningful difference was psychology.


I understand your point. I know there was a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Spartans and that this is one of the things that helped contribute to their success. My point is that there isn't a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Astartes Legions. If you want to use historical examples, rather than comparing it to a Spartan vs. Arcadian fight compare it to a Spartan vs. Roman fight. Both Spartan and Roman soldiers are of roughly equal physical ability and they are both of roughly equal psychological motivation. The Romans won, not because they were physically superior or because they were psychologically superior but because they were better equipped to win (both in terms of tactics and equipment). 

To further look at the Romans. As the legions expanded into new frontiers and faced new foes, and suffered new defeats, they improved themselves by adapting their technology, not improving their psychology. 



> Where that trait is concerned, we have verifiable evidence that the Legions are not the same. Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Night Lords possess the same esprit de corps and comraderie as, say, the Ultramarines. The Word Bearers were more loyal _down to their DNA._ Those are just a couple of examples, off the top of my head.


We have evidence that they are different but we don't have evidence that one or another is superior. The Night Lords are not less motivated because they aren't as friendly. The Word Bearers aren't more motivated because they are engineered to obey. I'm not saying that the psychology of the Wolves is identical to every other Legion, that's obviously not the case. I'm disputing the idea that their psychology is somehow vastly superior to the others. There is a difference between _different_ and _better_, the Legions are _different_, I haven't seen anything to suggest that some are _better _(as in universally, baring obvious specializations).



> It's _hardly_ impossible. We have proof that this was possible just on the basis of a Primarch's training programs. We also have proof that the Emperor could tamper them to make this happen.


We do? Where?



> For instance, we know full well that Horus was able to sway the supple process to ensure that his Legions were the best equipped (e.g., Mk IV Power Armour) prior to the Heresy kicking off. Is there even a hint of this being done for the Executioners? Even if there was, I'd be curious if it adds up to even a fraction of the heavy emphasis on the Wolves.


There definitely isn't any indication that special equipment was given to the Wolves. That's basically my point. If the Emperor had intended the Wolves to be the executioners then he would've given them special equipment, as the benefits of doing so should be obvious. No attempt is ever made (logically it would've been done well before the Heresy developed anyway). 



> To begin with, it assumes that the characters who express incredulity at the idea of Astartes fighting Astartes had knowledge of the Sanctions and how they were carried out.


We know that the Primarchs at least knew what happened. Those same Primarchs are (some of) the ones expressing doubt. 



> Beyond that, it depends on the idea that this storyline was completely mapped out from the very get go. You're assuming that Abnett or McNeil (or whoever it was) foresaw the extent of the "Executioners" plot angle when they wrote about how unfeasible Legion versus Legion warfare was. I could just as easily argue that, at the time, it was more important for the authors to play up the shock factor of Legion fighting Legion than to be completely honest about the events that preceded the Heresy. :wink:


I'm not assuming that authors would have known about the Executioners before they became a thing. I would assume that Abnett knew what others had already written when he created the Executioners angle, that seems pretty logical to me. But even that doesn't matter. My argument is based entirely on the fluff as presented. In universe it has been established that the idea of inter-Astartes violence is shocking. Why they decided that inter-Astartes violence is shocking is irrelevant.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc;1502729I understand your point. I know there was a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Spartans and that this is one of the things that helped contribute to their success. My point is that there isn't a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Astartes Legions. If you want to use historical examples said:


> This is neither here nor there, but the Romans never fought the Spartans. The Romans fought a number of battles against the Epirotes, the Macedonians, and various other Hellenistic-era monarchs. By the time they began to involve themselves in the politics of the various Greeks, though, the Spartans were already a spent force.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> This is neither here nor there, but the Romans never fought the Spartans.


Wow, that was an epic brain fart. My bad.



> Again, neither here nor there. I don't want to get terribly off-topic, but while Roman tactics and technology greatly improved over the course of several centuries, the waning of their warrior cult and their sense of civic duty directly led to their empire's downfall.


Right and the creation of that warrior cult had a huge part in their early success. But once they'd established it they didn't improve it to face new threats. Likely because they realized it'd be near impossible to do so.



> Sure we do. That is, unless you think that a propensity to abandon your comrades rather than fight as a cohesive force is a positive.


Is that a Night Lords 'cowardice' or a World Eaters 'recklessness' point?

The Night Lords don't really show 'cowardice' except in patently unwinnable scenarios, in which case it is more survival instinct than disunity.

The World Eaters recklessness on the other hand allows them to arguably defeat to the Space Wolves, precisely because they are willing to 'abandon' their comrades.



> Actually, that's precisely the implication of _The First Heretic_.


Really? I never got the impression that the Word Bearers were more highly motivated than other Legions, at least pre-sanction. 

Also, wouldn't that suggest that the Word Bearers should be the executioners? 



> See above. Further evidence of the Emperor's tampering to "customize" his Legions for specific duties is in _Deliverance Lost_. Where the Primarchs are concerned, you need only see the effects their leadership had.


Again, I'm not questioning that the Legions were customized, just whether those customizations made one force better than another. Surely the Emperor would not have intentionally handicapped some of his warriors?



> I'm not saying that their psychology is always better, nor am I trying to qualify by how much it is. What I'm positing is that there are *obvious* differences in the psychology and motivations of various Legions, and that this is *qualified* to be the case for the Space Wolves. I love a debate as much as the next guy, but there's no denying that the Space Wolves express pragmatism at worst and eagerness at best regarding a topic (intra-Legionary violence and sanctions). By contrast, Space Marines from other Legions express incredulity and disbelief over the same thing.


World Eaters, Night Lords and various other Legions express pragmatism and/or eagerness at the thought of intra-Legion violence as well. I'm not denying that the Wolves also express it. I'm questioning whether this makes them better at fighting Marines in the long term.



> That's up for debate. Carrying out a sanction on a Primarch and his Legion was never going to be something the Emperor _expected_ to happen.


If the Emperor designed Executioners then surely he would only have done so because he believed an executioner would be handy to have around.



> Complicating matters more, equipping a Legion for intra-Legionary conflict was always going to be tricky with the Legiones Astartes being on constant deployment in ever-growing distances from the Imperium's centers of power.


One of many problems with using your executioner as a regular soldier. So why did the Emperor do it?



> I'm specifically referring to Space Marines, not Primarchs. With the exception of the Word Bearers in _The First Heretic_ and the Space Wolves, the very mention of intra-Legionary conflict provokes shock. Even the Alpha Legion thought it was preposterous.


So? My point was that, thanks to the disbelief of the Primarchs, we can be quite sure that intra-Astartes violence had not been part of the fates that befell the lost Legions.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc;1502865 Right and the creation of that warrior cult had a huge part in their early success. But once they'd established it they didn't improve it to face new threats. Likely because they realized it'd be near impossible to do so.[/quote said:


> ... That's simply not true, man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Call it whatever you want. The point is, they showed a lack of discipline, cohesion, and loyalty that was substandard to that of other Legions.


I don't think we can say that with certainty. The Night Lords show disunity in the face of something no other Legion really experiences. We simply don't know how other Legions would react.



> Even the author of that particular story specifically disagrees with this assertion, though.


He calls it a draw as well. I was also more going with a 'what if they didn't stop' scenario, in which case I think the World Eaters would have wonwon



> Down to their DNA, man.


They are more loyal down to their DNA, that doesn't mean they are more motivated. Indeed they seem less motivated than other Legions in that they move slower, and are specifically punished for this failure.



> No, not the least of which reasons is that the Word Bearers themselves don't even suggest it.


That really doesn't matter. This isn't about who thinks they are the best executioners it about who is.



> 1. Based on _Deliverance Lost,_ it would appear that this was the case. See how the genetic code of the Iron Warriors was manipulated, for instance.


I don't remember what was suggested about the Iron Warriors, can you provide a quote?



> I think it's quite clear that the Emperor at a minimum wanted different results from those two different Legions. Depending on the means and controls one uses to attain certain results, handicaps may be inevitable.


It seems clear that the Emperor wanted the Legions to function in different manners. Surely he would want those Legions to function to the highest possible standards in those manners. Surely he would not want a Legion to operate in a manner that was unnecessary or probably worse than the way another Legion operated. Therefore it seems only logical that the Emperor would not handicap (ie. Design an overall weakness in) any of the Legions.



> It can, and history shows that this is the case.


No it doesn't. The Wolves record in intra-Legion conflict is mediocre at best. They show no obvious superiority over even those Legions that most strongly express shock.



> What qualifies the Space Wolves as better candidates for that role than the World Eaters and Night Lords is their discipline and loyalty. The World Eaters lack the former; the Night Lords lack the latter.


1) I would question the superiority of the Wolves discipline over that of the World Eaters. The Wolves discipline cracks first in the Night of the Wolf and they also show a lack of discipline in attacking the Sons on Shrike.
2) I would question the supposed lack of loyalty of the Night Lords. Until they are betrayed the Night Lords never do anything that suggests disobedience to the Emperor. Unlike the Wolves, who take it upon themselves to sanction Angron.



> A very good question! My guess is that it was a decision he made based on his not-perfect precognition. As in, he foresaw the need for one, if not the actual events that would drive the need.


But surely in such a situation the best bet would be to hold the Executioners in reserve. Thus allowing them to be deployed where ever they where needed quickly and eliminating the possibility of casualties rendering them unusable.



> Beyond that, there might be a more literary explanation for this. The idea that there is a sort of "honour" in "taking care of our own" is somewhat prevalent in different types of fiction - military, police, etc. The Emperor might have understood that the Legiones Astartes would accept a sanction from one of their own as opposed to outsiders doing the deed. That's purely conjecture on my part, though!


We have been shown that every single time a Legion was sanctioned they didn't accept it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I don't think we can say that with certainty. The Night Lords show disunity in the face of something no other Legion really experiences. We simply don't know how other Legions would react.


Yes, we do. We've seen the Ultramarines react far better in a far worse situation: see _Know No Fear_ and _Prince of Crows._ The former is far worse than the latter.



> He calls it a draw as well. I was also more going with a 'what if they didn't stop' scenario, in which case I think the World Eaters would have wonwon


Based on what? They were about to lose their Primarch, and _Betrayer_ points out, more than once, that the mode of war the World Eaters have chosen is inefficient. It costs them unnecessary casualties. That's all well and good if you have Titans and armour backing your assault on outnumbered Astartes and normal humans... not so much when you're fighting another Legion on even ground!



> They are more loyal down to their DNA, that doesn't mean they are more motivated. Indeed they seem less motivated than other Legions in that they move slower, and are specifically punished for this failure.


They don't "move slower" on account of being less motivated; they move slower _precisely because_ of that sense of loyalty. Their master's priority is to make worlds super-compliant in a religious fashion, and his men obey.

And I'm sorry, but I have to say this. We're getting to the point where you're twisting words and literary themes in order to make a point. To do so while ignoring the flat-out stated fact that genetic manipulation achieved those results in a Legion - and others, in other Legions as well - is somewhat irritating. If we're going to agree to disagree, so be it. 



> That really doesn't matter. This isn't about who thinks they are the best executioners it about who is.


How does it not matter that they themselves don't mention being Executioners? *Especially when another Legion flat-out claims it?*



> I don't remember what was suggested about the Iron Warriors, can you provide a quote?


Sure.



> “Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’ said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Gav Thorpe. “Deliverance Lost.” iBooks.





> It seems clear that the Emperor wanted the Legions to function in different manners. Surely he would want those Legions to function to the highest possible standards in those manners. Surely he would not want a Legion to operate in a manner that was unnecessary or probably worse than the way another Legion operated. Therefore it seems only logical that the Emperor would not handicap (ie. Design an overall weakness in) any of the Legions.


That's a valid premise, but intent doesn't always translate to results. And you're not going to get the same results recruiting from a hell-hole of a prison as you will from aristocratic courts.



> No it doesn't. The Wolves record in intra-Legion conflict is mediocre at best. They show no obvious superiority over even those Legions that most strongly express shock.


I'm talking about our real world history. Where the Great Crusade is concerned, it's strongly implied that you're wrong. The Space Wolves are the implied executioners, which means they achieved at least some success against other Legions and their Primarchs. Their portrayal in the Night of the Wolves is also positive.



> 1) I would question the superiority of the Wolves discipline over that of the World Eaters. The Wolves discipline cracks first in the Night of the Wolf and they also show a lack of discipline in attacking the Sons on Shrike.


By all means, cite what you feel is relevant.



> 2) I would question the supposed lack of loyalty of the Night Lords. Until they are betrayed the Night Lords never do anything that suggests disobedience to the Emperor. Unlike the Wolves, who take it upon themselves to sanction Angron.


I'm talking about the lack of loyalty they show to _themselves._



> But surely in such a situation the best bet would be to hold the Executioners in reserve. Thus allowing them to be deployed where ever they where needed quickly and eliminating the possibility of casualties rendering them unusable.


This makes no sense. Sanction is a contingency. The Great Crusade is the status quo.



> We have been shown that every single time a Legion was sanctioned they didn't accept it.


I'm not talking about the sanctioned Legions accepting it. I'm talking about the reaction of the rest of the Legions to a sanction. I'm proposing that they would not feel as outraged by another Legion "taking care of their cousins" (or what have you) as opposed to, say, the Custodes or some other organization doing so. But again, that's conjecture on my part.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Yes, we do. We've seen the Ultramarines react far better in a far worse situation: see _Know No Fear_ and _Prince of Crows._ The former is far worse than the latter.


Not really. On Tsagalua an entire Legion appears out of nowhere to ambush a grounded and unprepared one. On Calth part of a Legion suddenly betrays part of another. The Night Lords face a threat to the very existance, the Ultramarines 'merely' face one to their strength. The Ultramarines are on their home turf and well prepared to defend it, the Night Lords aren't either. Indeed defending Tsalgua goes against their battle doctrine.




> Based on what?


That Angron had beaten and would kill Russ. That Angron death is not certain. That Russ' death would devistate the Wolves moral. That Angron's death would have no effect on the World Eaters. And that the World Eaters were causing more casualties then they were receiving.



> They don't "move slower" on account of being less motivated; they move slower _precisely because_ of that sense of loyalty. Their master's priority is to make worlds super-compliant in a religious fashion, and his men obey.


So, the Word Bearers are motivated to behave differently than the other Legions. Is that motivation greater? Are they more motivated to make worlds super-compliant through religion than the Ultramarines are to make the super-compliant through other means? Their loyalty makes them more likely to do things they don't necessarily agree with, but it doesn't mean they will be more driven to do those things.



> And I'm sorry, but I have to say this. We're getting to the point where you're twisting words and literary themes in order to make a point. To do so while ignoring the flat-out stated fact that genetic manipulation achieved those results in a Legion - and others, in other Legions as well - is somewhat irritating.


1) You're twisting words and themes just as much as I am. 
2)Its not flat-out stated that the Wolves are superior to the other Legions. That goes against the themes of all the Legions, as well as many of the other themes of the Great Crusade.



> If we're going to agree to disagree, so be it.


If that's how you want to leave it, that's fine with me.

I won't agree to let various Legions be slandered though. 



> How does it not matter that they themselves don't mention being Executioners? *Especially when another Legion flat-out claims it?*


Because the fact that the Wolves say they're the Executioners a) doesn't actually make it so and b) doesn't make them good at it.




> Sure.


Thanks.

That's what I thought I remembered. The Iron Warriors are specualted to feel less pain then other Legions. I'm unclear on why you think that's a bad thing, or otherwise represents an intentional weakening of the Legion.



> That's a valid premise, but intent doesn't always translate to results.


No but intent gives a baseline for what the intended results are. The intended result was for the Legions to be differnet but equal, it then becomes your responsibility to show that some Legions are superior to others across the board. I don't feel you've done that.



> I'm talking about our real world history.


Where in real world history do you see evidence that expressing less shock at the nature of a foe leads to future long-term success against that foe?



> Where the Great Crusade is concerned, it's strongly implied that you're wrong. The Space Wolves are the implied executioners, which means they achieved at least some success against other Legions and their Primarchs.


I'm not going off implication, I'm going off what we are directly shown. We are directly shown that the Wolves are not superior to the World Eaters. While they enjoy some success against the Sons the deck is stacked heavily in their favour and removing just some of those benefits (several of which were brought about by circumstances the Wolves had no control over) makes their victory far from certain. Further, they fail to eliminate the Sons, kill Magnus or bring him in for judgment.



> By all means, cite what you feel is relevant.


Don't have my books so this is all from memory.
1) Russ and Angron are talking. Russ looses control and strikes Angron, violence (predictably) ensues.
2) The Wolves, unnecessarily and unprovoked, open fire on members of a brother Legion.
Both these events show a lack of discipline amongst the Wolves, they fall to emotion far to easily,



> I'm talking about the lack of loyalty they show to _themselves._


Oh. So you mean cohesion then?



> This makes no sense. Sanction is a contingency. The Great Crusade is the status quo.


Sanction is an inevitable contingency, it makes sense to plan for that contingency. Deploying the Wolves to the Crusade is the exact opposite of preparing for that contingency. Deploying the Executioners to front-line duty is not a nessecity for the Crusade, after all the Custodes are not a front-line force.




> I'm not talking about the sanctioned Legions accepting it. I'm talking about the reaction of the rest of the Legions to a sanction. I'm proposing that they would not feel as outraged by another Legion "taking care of their cousins" (or what have you) as opposed to, say, the Custodes or some other organization doing so. But again, that's conjecture on my part.


Ah, fair enough. Sounds like a good idea.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Not really. On Tsagalua an entire Legion appears out of nowhere to ambush a grounded and unprepared one. On Calth part of a Legion suddenly betrays part of another. The Night Lords face a threat to the very existance, the Ultramarines 'merely' face one to their strength. The Ultramarines are on their home turf and well prepared to defend it, the Night Lords aren't either. Indeed defending Tsalgua goes against their battle doctrine.


In all honesty, I don't see how this is a valid comparison, or how it aids your position.

The Night Lords were ambushed by a known enemy in a war that they had turned into a giant game of cat-and-mouse. While ambushes by rule preclude one from knowing when they will be ambushed, the Night Lords had no reason to be lax in their readiness. Their conduct over the previous two years confirms this. The battle against the Dark Angels led to them losing of a fourth of their Legion. Their reaction to this was to scatter to the four winds. That Sevatar wanted them to do so - due to his own lack of interest in mutual loyalty and similar ethics - doesn't diminish the fact that the majority of the Night Lords _were prepared to abandon him to begin with._

By contrast, the Ultramarines had no way of knowing they were about to be attacked. By the time they were even able to fire back in any meaningful fashion, they had lost fully three quarters of their force. Their morale and cohesion was never affected, though. There was never a question of their fleet running for it, for instance.

That there is a fundamental difference in the way those two Legions reacted to the adversity of seemingly imminent defeat cannot be denied. I honestly struggle to see why you're denying this very obvious fact, or another, equally obvious one: that the difference in their mentality is due to the different factors that shaped their respective Legions. The Night Lords were recruited from the worst scum of Terra and Nostramo. They are callous, unconcerned about the well-being of their "battle-brothers", and at the very least appreciate the "value" of treachery and sadism. By contrast, the majority of the Ultramarines (we don't know about the Terrans) were recruited from a regimented, disciplined, militaristic meritocracy that valued loyalty, honour, and personal valour. *Huge surprise:* the Ultramarines performed more dependably under duress!



> That Angron had beaten and would kill Russ. That Angron death is not certain. That Russ' death would devistate the Wolves moral. That Angron's death would have no effect on the World Eaters. And that the World Eaters were causing more casualties then they were receiving.


I... can't fathom how you arrived to this conclusion from reading _Betrayer._



> “And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’
> ‘He tried and failed.’
> ‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty. Look what happened. Yes, you beat him in a duel. Yes, your men took down more of his than his of yours. And yet, who won the battle?’
> ‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation.
> ...


Emphasis mine. Mind you, in the preceding paragraphs, Lorgar inwardly doubts that the World Eaters killed more than they lost.



> So, the Word Bearers are motivated to behave differently than the other Legions. Is that motivation greater? Are they more motivated to make worlds super-compliant through religion than the Ultramarines are to make the super-compliant through other means? Their loyalty makes them more likely to do things they don't necessarily agree with, but it doesn't mean they will be more driven to do those things.


_That's pretty much what the story says,_ MEQinc:



> “No Astartes is as loyal to their primarch as the XVII are to Lorgar. No Imperial warrior believes in their father’s righteousness with as much faith and ardent devotion.
> Argel Tal swallowed. It felt cold, and tasted sour. ‘Our loyalty is bred into our blood?’
> No. You are sentient creatures with free will. This is no more than a minor divergence in an otherwise flawless code. Your gene-seed enhances the chemicals in your brain tissue. It gives you focus. It grants you unbreakable loyalty to your cause, and to Lorgar Aurelian.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “The First Heretic.” iBooks.


You might feel that because this information comes from a daemon, it could all be lies. I'll simply remind you that the daemons have thus far been guilty of twisting the truth when revealing things to Astartes - not of telling lies. I'll also remind you that this concept of gene-bred loyalty directly follows the pre-existing concept from _Deliverance Lost._

Also, see directly below.



> 1) You're twisting words and themes just as much as I am.


No, MEQinc, I'm not. What I'm doing is citing specific parts of specific novels and novellas that spell out the patently obvious. Not all the Legions were the same. There isn't even room for hypothetical arguments like whether or not the Emperor _wanted_ them to be the same to begin with: we *know* that's not the case. We know for a fact that, because of the different factors that shaped them, certain Legions are more loyal, more cohesive, and more disciplined. We know that these traits don't just achieve better results in the real world, _but that these traits enabled certain Legions to achieve better results than others in this series._

Your counter-points have more often than not focused on personal interpretation of various general topics, like whether "superior motivation and loyalty will make someone more driven to do their master's bidding" - _as if that was ever in question._



> 2)Its not flat-out stated that the Wolves are superior to the other Legions. That goes against the themes of all the Legions, as well as many of the other themes of the Great Crusade.
> ...
> I won't agree to let various Legions be slandered though.


_What slander?_ Are you kidding me now? At best, we're talking about the comparative merits and flaws of fictional organizations. Relax, take a breath, and realize that the twenty Legions were never carbon-copy clones created in the exact same environment and operating under the exact same conditions. Given this very basic fact, it was impossible for them to be the same, and it would thus be impossible for them to achieve the same results.



> Because the fact that the Wolves say they're the Executioners a) doesn't actually make it so and b) doesn't make them good at it.


So what is your proposed alternative? That they're just lying and playing make-believe and that the other Legions tolerate them? That when Angron himself references Russ as an executioner he's just doing so randomly? That when other Primarchs anticipate Russ being unleashed for another sanction that this is another random selection? And, meanwhile, it's just happenstance that the *actual* executioners are *never, ever* referenced?



> Thanks.
> 
> That's what I thought I remembered. The Iron Warriors are specualted to feel less pain then other Legions. I'm unclear on why you think that's a bad thing, or otherwise represents an intentional weakening of the Legion.


Please read the citation more carefully, then. It provides you with (more) evidence that the Emperor did not intend for his Legions to be the same, and that in at least some cases he *did* provide built-in advantages. Loyalty, resistance to pain, and superior senses are three examples. You will also note that the same citation proves that the Emperor also built-in certain _deficiencies._



> No but intent gives a baseline for what the intended results are. The intended result was for the Legions to be differnet but equal, it then becomes your responsibility to show that some Legions are superior to others across the board. I don't feel you've done that.


You don't? Please re-read the citation from _Deliverance Lost,_ then.



> Where in real world history do you see evidence that expressing less shock at the nature of a foe leads to future long-term success against that foe?


To begin with, are we seriously arguing whether a force conditioned to fight a certain foe will get better results than if they were not? 

Assuming this was the case, right off the top of my head, Hellenistic-era historians on both the Roman and Greek side commented on the phenomenon of an inferior side eventually achieving victory by virtue of having to fight superior opponents. If you really want me to provide a specific citation, it will take me some time. I can't remember if it's Livy, Polybius, or someone else, or whether they're talking about the Spartans fighting other Greeks or not.



> I'm not going off implication, I'm going off what we are directly shown. We are directly shown that the Wolves are not superior to the World Eaters.


No, we're not. For the sake of both our times, I suggest you wait until you get your books back and have the opportunity to re-read through the pertinent chapters. The inefficiency of the World Eaters' assault tactics is qualified. Their lack of cohesion and discipline is qualified as the reason why the World Eaters would have lost their Primarch.



> While they enjoy some success against the Sons the deck is stacked heavily in their favour and removing just some of those benefits (several of which were brought about by circumstances the Wolves had no control over) makes their victory far from certain. Further, they fail to eliminate the Sons, kill Magnus or bring him in for judgment.


You're still just arguing against points that you - not me - are inventing. For some reason, you keep projecting on my points the idea that "the Space Wolves are the best Legion". I didn't say that. Ever. What I said is that, of all the Legions, they appear to have possessed the right temperament/psychology/motivation/whatever for the job.



> Don't have my books so this is all from memory.


I'm not trying to be rude, but trust me when I say that you need to wait until you get your books back.



> Oh. So you mean cohesion then?


Unit cohesion is a byproduct of loyalty.



> Sanction is an inevitable contingency, ...


No, not necessarily. That's conjecture - even I admitted as much. Either way, though, the Great Crusade was a full-time campaign. Sanctions were only going to be anomalies. It makes zero sense to focus on the anomaly rather than the status quo. That's not to say that you shouldn't prepare for the anomaly, and the Emperor appears to have done so: he appears to have designed a Legion that combined predatory ruthlessness with superior loyalty. It's kind of an apples-and-oranges comparison, but he basically made himself some Minotaurs.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Phoebus the nightlords were arguably winning a war against the dark angels, they were fulfilling their objective of keeping the dark angels from leaving the sector. Furthermore it goes on to say that johnson was losing his composure against konrad curze, johnson was so unnerved of being unable to defeat curze of anticipate his moves that he was doing such things as punching his marines heads off for talking back.

The nightlords were victory for victory with the dark angels in their multi year war, it clearly states that for every world taken the dark angels lost a world, for every victory they gained they were delt an equally crushing loss.

The only reason the dark angels took down a quarter of the night lords legion is because johnson was given a warp based plot device by a demon. This plot device allowed johnson and his entire legion to warp anywhere they wanted to instantly in mass, this was unprecedented in imperium history.

The nightlords were extremely disciplined, and this was demonstrated in their equal if not superior performance against the dark angels in their war.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Lux, the issue at hand isn't whether the Night Lords were good at fighting their style of war. That's demonstrably proven in "Prince of Crows". The question was whether they react with the same cohesiveness and sense of loyalty as other Legions when facing adversity. That's clearly not the case. The twenty Legions have different mentalities, the result of being recruited from different environments and gaining experience in different theatres of operation and under different leaders.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

You are using the example of them being ambushed and the result of it as a sign of their lack od cohesiveness, they were not ambushed. The nightlords were subjected to the entire dark angels fleet i stantly coming out of the warp on top of them, any legion would have ran in that scenario.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

That _is_ an ambush, simply on a grander scale than normal. Furthermore, I provided a contrasting example for the Ultramarines. Obviously no two situations will be identical (though, if anything, the situation the latter were thrust in was far more catastrophic), but the reactions shown by the two Legions are very telling.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Regarding the Wolves as executioners thing, ADB has stated that they did not, repeat, did not kill the two lost legions:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/...pler-than-expected-answer/page-2#entry3319787
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/...pler-than-expected-answer/page-2#entry3320011


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It's late, I'm only up to watch Liverpool, and this is getting frustrating as it's clear that by now that a significant enough number of posters are less worries about what I'm trying to say and more about what they're trying to argue.

Seriously, read my original post in this argument. This titanic exercise in futility started with me disagreeing with MEQinc on the simple matter of whether psychology and motivation mattering in a fight - _as if that was ever a serious question_ - and whether the Space Wolves could have an advantage in this department over other Legions.

Along the way, *I've been accused of slandering fictional entities.* :biggrin:

That having been said:

*Karthak,*

Do take in Dembski-Bowden's message as whole, rather than the bit that you think gives an end-all, be-all answer:



> I've had it argued at me that I'm doing "everything I can to stop the Wolves being Executioners", when I'm the one doing the most to reinforce it, with Betrayer's opening quote, and the events of the Night of the Wolf. I just can't pretend they killed the Lost Legions, because... they didn't. It's an in-universe possibility, but as readers, we know they didn't, both because it doesn't really make much sense (why the Wolves? Really?) and because if the fate of the Lost Legions is never going to be revealed, no one would've said "The Wolves killed them"... as that's revealing it.


So, things that can be taken from this:
1. The Wolves doing so could have been the case:


> "It's an in-universe possibility ..."


2. Aaron Dembski-Bowden doesn't think that is the case:


> "... as readers, we know they didn't, both because it doesn't really make much sense (why the Wolves? Really?) ...


3. He nonetheless has tried to reinforce that theme, though not with the intent of telling you that that it how it happened:


> "I'm the one doing the most to reinforce it, ..."


4. The reason why they don't want to tell you how it happened and by whom is that this would give away the fate of the Missing Legions, which they don't want to do:


> "... because if the fate of the Lost Legions is never going to be revealed, no one would've said "The Wolves killed them"... as that's revealing it."


Thus, other than "The Wolves didn't do it because no one has done it because that would be revealing the fate of the Missing Legions", there really isn't a direct answer given by the two posts you linked.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

So basically no one can actually claim that they did and no one can claim that they didn't, because there will never be enough revealed to provide solid proof to support either case. Either way, going around in pointless, circular arguments isn't getting anyone anywhere, because we will never have an answer, as that would defeat the purpose of leaving the fate of the 2 lost legions a mystery. At least that's what I got out of Aaron's post.

Though I do have to point out that



> their favourite Legion are really just as good and just as flawed as all the others


and 



> because it doesn't really make much sense (why the Wolves? Really?)


suggests that he also doesn't believe that the Wolves were any better suited for being Executioners, as opposed to any of the other legions. Or at least that there is nothing to suggest that they are any better, and don't have their own flaws, compared to any of the other legions. 


Purely from a practical standpoint I still believe the Ultramarines would have served better as executioners quite frankly. The reason Guilliman, along with many other primarchs, react in the way they do is because the idea of fighting their brothers is alien to them. Prepare them for the idea and I think their reactions would be very diffferent. After the initial shock of the attack wore off, Guilliman never showed any hesitation against the traitor marines and their primarchs. He is also undoubtably loyal to the Emperor's ideals and the concept of the Imperium. His sense of practical/theoretical would also arguably make him a good choice; a legion goes off the reservation to such a degree that the Emperor feels nothing short of a sanction is in fact necessary, what do you think the _practical_ solution would be in his eyes? Not to mention the fact that Guilliman has a 500 world empire, so the Ultramarines, above any other legion, would have the easiest time replenishing their numbers to replace the obvious losses an inter-legion war would cause. They'd arguably also have the most personal resources to bring to bear. And they showed at Monarchia that they were willing to get their hands dirty if they believed that the reason for it was valid, and stood by the Emperor when he censured Lorgar.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> That _is_ an ambush, simply on a grander scale than normal. Furthermore, I provided a contrasting example for the Ultramarines. Obviously no two situations will be identical (though, if anything, the situation the latter were thrust in was far more catastrophic), but the reactions shown by the two Legions are very telling.


That is not an "ambush" on a greater scale, it was a military maneuver that was never seen and or precedent prior to that battle. No legion had ever been able to navigate the warp instantly, and to do so while keeping their entire legion together during transit. Furthermore they were also able to pinpoint exactly where the entire legion exited from the warp simultaneously, this was a power unheard of prior to this sector war.

No Legion had any idea to expect such a thing for it was "impossible" to do so, the Dark Angels were only able to do so because Johnson accepted a warp gift from a Daemon. So no the Nightlords had no reason to expect that the Dark Angels could instantly transit their entire legion in a singular mass, and exit the warp simultaneously together in the middle of the Nightlords legion. 

The nightlords tactics only go to demonstrate how effective they are at war, they chose to separate immediately which was the most effective choice at hand. The entire Dark Angels legion had just instantly existed the warp in a singular mass in the middle of their legion, they were in a bad position to wage naval warfare due to their forces being spread while the dark angels were concentrated in the middle of their camp. The choice to quickly disengage and in multiple directions ensured that the maximum number of Nightlord vessels would survive, due to that they were fleeing the center of mass of the dark angels legion. If the Dark Angels choose to pursue they would have had to quickly split their forces into smaller numbers to chase after the Nightlords fleeing in every direction away from their center mass of ships, which then would have given the nightlords a distinct advantage of fighting them piecemeal. 

The Ultramarines scenario was entirely different in parameters, and nature of war entirely. The Ultramarines were entrenched on one of their most heavily fortified worlds, the Word Bearers had entrenched soldiers on the world, and positioned battleships in orbit. What resulted post of the treachery was bitter urban warfare, city by city to block by block. 

So I will continue to argue your statement that the nightlords versus the Dark Angels war has any merit in being compared to, and or bolstering your argument with and or against the concept of a "Ambush".


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> Snip


I am almost literally on the verge of smashing my head repeatedly against my desk. That you can't see that as an ambush is so absurd that it makes my brain hurt.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Just a quick question - which book does The Lion get a warp device that can help his entire legion translate in?

I definitely missed that one


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

In the novella "The Lion", from _The Primarchs._


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> In the novella "The Lion", from _The Primarchs._


 
Thank you - I'd better read that one again :laugh:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Sorry, brain fart! "The Lion" describes how they get the warp device in question. "Prince of Crows", from _Shadows of Treachery,_ describes how they used it.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

It's the primarchs I need to read again. I read it once when it came out and all my brain picked up on was Fulgrims torture porn adventures and the story where the Alphas realise that not even they know whats going on with the 'I'm alpharius' angle 
(horribly summarised I know)

It wasn't one of my favourites. I couldn't even remember the other two stories. 
To the bookshelf!


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