# What Empire unit to make?



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I went through my bitz box lately and found loads of bitz that I could use to rejuvenate some old models I never completed or I could reuse. I have about 50 models, most are unequipped, some have swords and shields and some with militia weapons. 

I have enough bits to make 34 spearmen, 37 if I make a command, and the rest crossbowmen, or I could make them all militiamen and use them as detachments for my 24 greatswords and 40 halbardiers or as a big horde with a witch hunter and warrior priest. 

What do you think is the best to do out of these options?


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Spears. Buffed by Lore of Beasts/Shadow (best lores for the substandard Empire State Troops), a unit of 40 can put out quite a lot of hurt.

Backed by Stubborn Generals and a Standard of Discipline, you'll be having a fairly immovable block of infantry thanks to Hold The Line of Stubborn Leadership 10


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I do have to support spears as a big block with shields. Crossbows are nice, but BS:3 just doesn't cut it for hitting anything.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I bought a lot of unassembled empire models (militia and state troop bodies) from someone leaving the game. He broke down the sprues into types for head and weapons and stuff. I am making most of them spears (without shields) and halberds but am also making some archers (skirmisher detachments to hide engineers in near hellblaster volley guns and cannons). I haven't done all the analyses yet but suspect spears in the main regiment with halberd detachments looks to be most points efficient. The archers also get a stand and shoot if needed. I also bought some greatword bits (heads and weapons) and am converting some state troops into great swords to fill out back ranks. As much as I love swordsmen, paying the extra points just for +1WS, a shield and a parry save doesn't pay off compared with the +1 S of halberds and the extra rank of attacks of spears.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Unfortunately I don't have the shields to put on them, but some of the models look like they have heavy armour, especially the conversions I did with Bretonnian men at arms to make some of Helhunten's Redeemers from the Uniform and Heraldry book.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Shields don't pay off unless you have a much higher armour save to start with or your models cost a lot more. For example, I never put shields on my dark elf spearmen because more than half of the time the shields produce no benefits (spells or attacks too high of strength or armour piercing) relative to the points saved. You are better off with more bodies and wounds (greater chance of steadfast and avoiding panic tests). Shields have no value in combat for halberds and are only worthwhile for models with halberds with very high points costs and high initial armour saves, like warriors of chaos. Shields only potential pay off for swordsmen due to improved armour save and parry save benefits.

State troops almost always have light armour, not heavy armour.


----------



## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> ...about 50 models...the rest crossbowmen, or ... militiamen and use them as detachments for my 24 greatswords and 40 halbardiers ...


Fifty models gives you two detachments of 15 to support your halberdiers and two detachments of 10 to support your greatswords. I'd try to have at least one detachment of crossbowmen if possible, as the extra supporting missile fire is always handy.

Personally I like to make use of the detachment rule, as it's what most sets the Empire apart from the other armies. [Although.. if you really wanted you could still use the detachments if you made most of them spearmen, you'd just have to break up your halberdiers into a few detachments instead].


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've put all the polearm arms onto them, yet to put spears or such on them. Don't think I have enough halberd blades to put them on but I don't think have another 50 halberds would be very helpful. 

A lot of my units so far are very offensive in nature, big unit of halberds, pretty big unit of greatswords, big unit of knights, two units of five pistoliers and 10 outriders, 20 handgunners, 40 halberdiers, two cannons, hellblaster and additional characters, so maybe a big unit of spears may sure up the line.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm a bit biased to Spears myself thanks to the 6th Edition Spears with Griffon Banner, but they can hold while supporting counter-charging halberds into the flank of all but uber units (Chaos Warriors, Black Guard, White Lions, urgh) allows you to break fairly nice damage. (At 3K, my core would be 60 Spears, with 2x30 Halberd Detach)


----------



## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

olderplayer said:


> Shields don't pay off unless you have a much higher armour save to start with or your models cost a lot more. For example, I never put shields on my dark elf spearmen because more than half of the time the shields produce no benefits (spells or attacks too high of strength or armour piercing) relative to the points saved. You are better off with more bodies and wounds (greater chance of steadfast and avoiding panic tests).


Shields are cool.

Dark Elves
More Dark Elves
Even more Dark Elves
Empire Spearmen
More Empire Spearmen
Even more Empire Spearmen

All the above have shields, and they look lovely. What further benefit do you require?


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I have found a 5+ much superior to a 6+ just for the fact of the proliferation of STR:4 combat troops. Getting a save is better than not, and for a very low point cost. But opinions differ. Never for Halberds, though, waste of points. But spears aren't two handed.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

So instead of having my halberdiers as a horde, I should have my spears with a warrior priest and captain, 50 strong with the halberdiers as the detachments?


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The reroll to hit, and extra rank of attacks, 5+ Save, and permanent Hold the line is really quite good without having to ensure that the Halberds stay in line. It's the best way to run spears, while Halberds don't NEED those to do as well - it's just that running the Halberds as detachments allows them to benefit from the rules of the parent unit when nearby. Remember the old adage, paraphrased force doubled is power tripled.

Halberdiers can handle most none elites on their own but they don't mind the odd helping hand.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Right, that is what I shall do then, lore wise the priests would be best with the spearmen since they are going to be semi religious troops based on the famous regiment I mentioned before, just hope I can make the models look good.


----------



## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Well even without shields, small denomination coins work just fine. I like pennies as you end up with a shiled that's cheaper than ANYTHING GW has.


----------



## FallenSwordGaming (Apr 17, 2012)

how about the Empire Pistoliers / Outriders an the Empire Knightly Order?? they look very cool!


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I just found an additional sprue of crossbowmen so I could change all 20 of my handgunners into crossbowmen, would this be a better option?

I have 10 outriders, and 10 pistoliers as well as around 20 knights already


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think handgunners are better than crossbowmen across the board, due to armor piercing.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Creon said:


> I think handgunners are better than crossbowmen across the board, due to armor piercing.


I think Crossbows are better than handgunners due to the range. WE FIGHT AT DAWN!


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The advantage of crossbowmen is that the move or fire rule limits handgunners on the first turn if you end up going first, whereas the crossbowman will likely begin in range in a standard battleline scenario. The question is: how much is that extra AP worth? I think both units only make sense as detachments with the ability to stand and shoot a unit charging the parent, then hit a flank on the next turn, and the ability to get flaming attacks from the soulfire battle prayer on the parent unit. 

If one is looking for a pure shooting unit, then the HB Volley Gun with enigneer, while not cheap, is more reliable unit (only 1.6% chance of two or three misfire rolls causing a risk) and will generate more hits than an equivalent number of crossbowman or handgunners at +1S and AP and have the ability to pivot to shoot, which is a huge advantage over handgunners and crossbowman, especially in dealing with scouting units, vanguard units, and faster flanking units (such as fiends, fast cav, medium cav, chariots). The +1S and AP is huge against chariots and monsters like hydras.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Should every unit have a warrior priest in? because atm my greatswords don't but my spearmen will but they will have halbardier detachments.

I think I'm definitely going to turn the rest of my handgunners into crossbowmen though.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Up to you, you do get that initial shot at long range, granted. But on the other hand, you don't kill much in that first turn. 20 shots, for example, needing 5+ to hit is 7 hits, STR:4, t:3 gets you 5 wounds, and average one save on light or medium (5+ armor) units. Against t:4 you'll get 4 wounds, and assuming 4+ save, (h armor/shield on better troops, and 1.5 saves. Against A:2+/1+ (knights) you will get 4 wounds and .65 casualties.

Now with Handgunners, you lose those, at best 4 casualties. But 2nd round of shooting, you get the same amount of hits and wounds, but light troops get no save. Heavies need a 6+, and Knights need a 3+. So you get equivalent casualties, more failed armor but 1 less round shooting. 

Going 2nd, handguns usually are in range. And additionally, they can have Long Rifles, reapeater handguns and pistols in the champion's hands.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You can't upgrade to a command with a detachment still though right?


----------

