# The Catacomb Command Barge



## N0rdicNinja

I really, really want to like this thing! I really, really do! But I'm having a difficult time coming up with a reason to take it beyond "Because I want to." It just seems like it would be so much more effective in pretty much every circumstance to just throw the Overlord into a transport with a unit... 

And as nifty as it is I don't see the drive by scything happening more then twice in a game. Any thoughts on why one might want to include this in their list? It's nifty but odd... I just can't tell if it's odd because it sucks or because solo HQ tactics are foreign to me.


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## Tim/Steve

You would be taking an AV13 (ish) vehicle that can make 3 S7 hits on a unit that ignore armour saves and can occasionally allocate the wounds yourself. You can already have fun using that against enemy vehicles that they think are safe (enemy raider moved a flat out24"... no worries, just cruise over it and you'll have 3 S7+D6 attacks hitting on a 3+ and ignoring its cover save) or just picking out random enemy models that you don't like the look of. My personal favourites would be apothecaries or commissars in huge blob units: if you then charge in with a 2+ save you could have your overlord destroying the whole 50+ guadsmen blob by himself in a single turn. What's worse is that you can make sweep attacks even if moving flat out (I think), so you can move 24", demolish a tank and have a pretty nasty unit deep in enemy territory with a 4+ cover save , which can then flee out again next turn doing the same thing again.

Though I think it goes without saying that having an overlord on a barge with anything other then a warscythe is a massive waste... ok I can just about see the case for taking a voidblade, but certainly nothing else.

I also think this gets much better if you have a monolith on the board: if your barge does get destroyed your lord will come tumbling out... but will then be rather isolated, but not if you can teleport him back to the 'lith.


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## wingazzwarlord

i just used one in a battle tonight and i found it pretty usefull. managed to used the sweep attack once and it killed a vindicator which was a bonus but also remember that because its open topped the overlord inside can still disembark and assault (which killed the other vindicator. also the weapon on it is quite handy str6 assault 2 and any 6,s u roll to hit double your hits which meant i took out a rhino the next turn. so three vehicles in 2 turn isnt bad going. and of course once the overlord was out the barge he joined a unit of warriors in his next movement phase which then meant they were coming back on the table on 4+ with the help of the ressurection orb. hope this justifis u taking one of your much wanted units


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## lokis222

There also might be a good combo with Nemesor Zahndrekh and Vangard Obyron that will allow you to deepstrike with precision the unit of your choice.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Think about it. Overlord sweeps unit, does 3 attacks. As long as he moved less than 12" he can disembark, and, because the vehicle is OPEN TOPPED, assault in the same turn.

Not bad, eh?

Plus he can move flat out 24" and still sweep attack, which is damn good. And as has been discussed, having a Monolith means he can always relocate when your Barge hits the bucket.


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## N0rdicNinja

It all certainly does sound bad ass, and I can't wait to at least give it a proxy run, but I'm a bit worried that it's all just a gimmick... What I mean by that is if you were to play the same opponent again, after they've experienced the gimmick, do you think it would be able to get its points worth again?

If he's going to be running around all by his lonesome your Overlord is going to need to be quite decked out. From the sounds of it Tim/Steve's lord was one tooled out son of a bitch! Which makes it all the more painful if you end up losing him, and considering he's flying around all by his self seems likely. I'm mostly just scratching my head at the idea of solo HQ tactics. I will definitely give it a shot I was just curious what kind of experience others were having.

I do love the idea. =)


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## paolodistruggiuova

i think you should run him as cheap as possible, aka lord, warschyte and barge for 180pts, he could do slightly better against hordes with a 2+ armour or vs CC specialists with a 3++ inv save but the price tag is too high imho, especially since you wont use that gear till you disembark, and you dont want to disembark him unless forced to


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## N0rdicNinja

paolodistruggiuova said:


> i think you should run him as cheap as possible, aka lord, warschyte and barge for 180pts, he could do slightly better against hordes with a 2+ armour or vs CC specialists with a 3++ inv save but the price tag is too high imho, especially since you wont use that gear till you disembark, and you dont want to disembark him unless forced to


That was the feeling I got while trying to make lists that incorporated it, Overlord + Warscythe + Barge... done. But by doing that I'm now focusing everything into the drive by attack and he's otherwise useless.

If I were to play him aggressively without tooling him out he's basically a kamikaze anti-tank/anti-MC unit, if you make him as cheap as possible and send him after the enemies most expensive shit I could see it working out... the first time they see it at least. Against assault oriented forces I could see it perhaps being more beneficial, just hang him behind your infantry (shooting in the mean time) and once they get close start flying back and forth. But it seems so inefficient considering you could just pick up one of the Heavy Support options and unload on them the entire time they're approaching instead... for cheaper I might add.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here as I will certainly be using it, I'm just trying to make it as useful as possible. It's basically a scalpel, and like most precise instruments of death it can be difficult to use correctly.


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## paolodistruggiuova

N0rdicNinja said:


> That was the feeling I got while trying to make lists that incorporated it, Overlord + Warscythe + Barge... done. But by doing that I'm now focusing everything into the drive by attack and he's otherwise useless.
> 
> If I were to play him aggressively without tooling him out he's basically a kamikaze anti-tank/anti-MC unit, if you make him as cheap as possible and send him after the enemies most expensive shit I could see it working out... the first time they see it at least. Against assault oriented forces I could see it perhaps being more beneficial, just hang him behind your infantry (shooting in the mean time) and once they get close start flying back and forth. But it seems so inefficient considering you could just pick up one of the Heavy Support options and unload on them the entire time they're approaching instead... for cheaper I might add.
> 
> I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here as I will certainly be using it, I'm just trying to make it as useful as possible. It's basically a scalpel, and like most precise instruments of death it can be difficult to use correctly.


even without any upgrades with t5 3+ armour and 3 wounds it takes on average 54 WS 2/4 STR 4 melee attacks to kill him, that's a lot of attacks if he picks his fights.
even a full sized tactical with a powerfist charged by a lone overlord on average score only 1,33 wounds on the first turn
so ofc he isnt a CC monster but he can kill tanks really well and assault snipers/artillery/long fangs/Lootas etc without much problems


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## Crimson Shadow

Put Trazyn in it. You then have an objective claiming vehicle, that can attack stuff as it runs over it.


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## Tim/Steve

Crimson Shadow said:


> Put Trazyn in it. You then have an objective claiming vehicle, that can attack stuff as it runs over it.


Holy crap that's evil... your sir may be a total bastard (as I'm sure your friends will name you) but there is no doubt you are a true evil genius.

1- Trazyn would be in a move 24", scoring, AV13 vehicle.

2- living metal means you'll rarely be stunned.

3- symbiotic repair will stop you being immobalised.

4- cause 2 wounds on a huge blob unit (such as the 50+ guardsmen blob) and you'll either force the opponent to allocate to their valuable 'hidden' models, or take massive numbers of wounds. Roll 2 sixes to hit against a guard blob and you could well end up killing ~30 models without too much luck.

5- He's trazyn the INFINITE. If you do get isolated and killed then you have a 2+ to come back as another model... and if you do happen to fail that you'll get your standard 5+ Ever Living roll at the end of the phase regardless.

Wow, that is so tempting to try


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## Farseer Darvaleth

> Something awesome (albeit beardy) about Trazyn and a Command Barge.


Oh dear lord. I thought about taking Trazyn but NEVER did it occur to me to put him on my Barge.

That is, just, just, ULTIMATE! I simply cannot comprehend it's awesomeness. I mean, you can drive by, do your attacks (with the Obliterator the majority of your damage is not done by the original attacks anyway so no need to fully assault) even when moving at 24". It's pure evil.

But worse.... oh god. Having TWO Barges, one with a Lord with Scythe, other with Trazyn.

Lord zooms over transport at Flat Out. Destroys transport.

Trazyn zooms over the disembarked occupants. Trazyn enjoys. :spiteful:


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## Ravner298

Tim/Steve said:


> Holy crap that's evil... your sir may be a total bastard (as I'm sure your friends will name you) but there is no doubt you are a true evil genius.
> 
> 1- Trazyn would be in a move 24", scoring, AV13 vehicle.
> 
> 2- living metal means you'll rarely be stunned.
> 
> 3- symbiotic repair will stop you being immobalised.
> 
> 4- cause 2 wounds on a huge blob unit (such as the 50+ guardsmen blob) and you'll either force the opponent to allocate to their valuable 'hidden' models, or take massive numbers of wounds. Roll 2 sixes to hit against a guard blob and you could well end up killing ~30 models without too much luck.
> 
> 5- He's trazyn the INFINITE. If you do get isolated and killed then you have a 2+ to come back as another model... and if you do happen to fail that you'll get your standard 5+ Ever Living roll at the end of the phase regardless.
> 
> Wow, that is so tempting to try


get...me.....the president.


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## lokis222

That's amazingly funny. I think you have found the CH33S3 build. 
+rep


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## N0rdicNinja

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> *snip*


The fuck... you dirty (awesome) bastard!


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## VicGin

Hardly the cheese build. This is a 200+ point HQ flying directly towards the opponent in an open-topped transport that will most likely be in melta range of the enemy. And we all know how much AP1 loves open topped.

This terror in close combat kills .83 (thanks Heresy combat calculator!) fire warriors in close combat. If he does the drive by attack, not being close combat he doesn't get to use the "Empathic Oblit" special rules.

Yes he is nearly unkillable if you have invested in sufficent crypteks, lords, overlords, or lychguard. And scoring is a plus - IMO he is better used joined to a non-troop making them scoring, not for his close combat prowess :rofl:

As well, you can't force the allocation of wounds on the hidden models. If you kill a model with that name - all models with the same name take the roll. If they happen to have a special weapon they can die, but you can't allocate to a commissar (for example) unless a commissar is killed.


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## N0rdicNinja

Third sentence in the second paragraph under Sweep Attack in the Command Barge entry. He gets any special rules granted from the weapon.


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## Crimson Shadow

edit: Ninja'd. :goodpost:



VicGin said:


> Hardly the cheese build. This is a 200+ point HQ flying directly towards the opponent in an open-topped transport that will most likely be in melta range of the enemy. And we all know how much AP1 loves open topped.
> 
> This terror in close combat kills .83 (thanks Heresy combat calculator!) fire warriors in close combat. If he does the drive by attack, not being close combat he doesn't get to use the "Empathic Oblit" special rules.
> 
> Yes he is nearly unkillable if you have invested in sufficent crypteks, lords, overlords, or lychguard. And scoring is a plus - IMO he is better used joined to a non-troop making them scoring and riding around in a transport taking over tanks, not for his close combat prowess :rofl:



The rules for the sweep attacks specifically say that they receive all strength bonuses and special abilities from the close combat weapon of the embarked Overlord, etc. Ergo, he gets to use the Empathic Obliterator.


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## VicGin

But the rules for Empath Oblit state the that the kill must be made IN close combat. He's not in close combat when he makes the attack - but he is using a cc weapon.


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## lokis222

Did a combat calculator on it. On a 3+ save, it is like a 33% chance to wound. On a 4+/5+ 66.7% and on a 6+ 83%. This is if you have to hit on a 4+. On the 3+ to hit, it starts at 44% for a 3+ armour save, 67%, 89% for a 5+ and 1.1 dead for a 6+.

So, in some cases, it is more the threat than the reality. May have great psychological value.


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## lokis222

VicGin said:


> But the rules for Empath Oblit state the that the kill must be made IN close combat. He's not in close combat when he makes the attack - but he is using a cc weapon.


It doesn't say must. It says "If ... kills one or more enemies in close combat, the empathic obliterator unleashes a psionc shockwave." Then there are the effects of said shockwave. 

The command barge says," For each success, the unit suffers a hit at the character's str, plus any strength bonuses and special abilities from his close combat weapon."

The special ability from the staff is the shockwave, so the shockwave applies.


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## VicGin

lokis222 said:


> kills one or more enemies in close combat


Not if he kills one or more using the staff - if he kills one or more using the staff _In close combat._

The shockwave needs kills in close combat to happen, no kills in close combat - no shockwave.


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## lokis222

I can see what you are saying. Looking through the book, your interpretation would negate three or more other weapons. 

Might be FAQ'd like the Doom, but till then, I think it might see a lot of debate.


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## Crimson Shadow

VicGin said:


> Not if he kills one or more using the staff - if he kills one or more using the staff _In close combat._
> 
> The shockwave needs kills in close combat to happen, no kills in close combat - no shockwave.


So if I throw a dart at you, you won't bleed, because we're not playing darts? 

It makes a close combat attack. So for that brief instant, Trazyn is in close combat. 

I will agree that it's not in the close combat phase. So if you want to argue that, then Trazyn has to wait for the close combat phase for the shockwave to happen. But in either case, the special ability of the weapon is a shockwave so he get's the shockwave.


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## VicGin

Crimson Shadow said:


> So if I throw a dart at you, you won't bleed, because we're not playing darts?


I didn't realize that we were using crap analogies to make our points.

The blast happens at the end of the assault phase, needs a kill in close combat (not by a cc weapon) to happen. IMO its pretty clear in his rules.

Honestly, I can see both sides to this. Whether or not the sweep attacks count as kills IN close combat remains to be Faq'd.


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## Crimson Shadow

VicGin said:


> I didn't realize that we were using crap analogies to make our points.
> 
> The blast happens at the end of the assault phase, needs a kill in close combat (not by a cc weapon) to happen. IMO its pretty clear in his rules.
> 
> Honestly, I can see both sides to this. Whether or not the sweep attacks count as kills IN close combat remains to be Faq'd.


You're right, I should have worded it a little better.  And this should receive an FAQ, as I can see it being a heavily debated item. 

One last point. Should an Overlord with a Hyperphase Sword be allowed to use it for the sweep attacks?

The hyperphase sword is a power weapon. And as per the BRB a power weapon does not allow armor saves "in Close Combat", as you have asserted this is not close combat, would the opposing player be allowed his armor saves against a Hyperphase sword based on this interpretation?

It's a can of worms where both sides can argue the validity of their view (I'm referring to Trazyn). I can see both sides, and in friendly games I'd be inclined to allow it against me, and I wouldn't be mad if someone I was playing against wouldn't let me use it. In a tournament setting , it's up to the organizers to interpret.

Either way, your original points, kamikaze 200+ pt HQ and Melta range are quite valid and will prevent this from being too big an issue.


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## VicGin

Crimson Shadow said:


> It's a can of worms where both sides can argue the validity of their view (I'm referring to Trazyn). I can see both sides, and in friendly games I'd be inclined to allow it against me, and I wouldn't be mad if someone I was playing against wouldn't let me use it. In a tournament setting , it's up to the organizers to interpret.


I agree 100% 

Excellent point about the Hyperphase Sword! k:


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## Crimson Shadow

Spoke with a GW rules arbiter on the phone. He basically said what we've said.

He doesn't see why Trazyn wouldn't get the Empathic Shockwave, but to check with your Tournament Organizers. Also agreed there should be an FAQ about it.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

If in doubt, use RAI until an FAQ deals with it. And I'd be pretty confident in saying that if you aren't a hardcore RAW gamer you'll understand that Trazyn wouldn't just try and punch people when flying past them, he'd use his frickin' staff. :laugh:


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## VicGin

Fair enough :grin:

Back onto the topic of the command barge:

IMO A generic overlord with warscythe could be very good anti-tank, and annoying anti-infantry (esp to meq) with the sweep attack then dismount and charge.

As far as Trazyn goes you're paying a lot for a very unreliable ability, that will rarely pay off. IMO he's a bit of a points trap, esp with Nemesor and Orikan coming in at similar points. He could be fun in a game, but there are better choices for the points.


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## Aramoro

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> If in doubt, use RAI until an FAQ deals with it. And I'd be pretty confident in saying that if you aren't a hardcore RAW gamer you'll understand that Trazyn wouldn't just try and punch people when flying past them, he'd use his frickin' staff. :laugh:


I would say it does work as Command Barge Sweep Attack says you get any Strength Bonuses and special abilities from his close combat weapon. The Empathic Obliterator is a Close Combat Weapon and it has a special ability.


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## Tim/Steve

VicGin said:


> As far as Trazyn goes you're paying a lot for a very unreliable ability, that will rarely pay off. IMO he's a bit of a points trap, esp with Nemesor and Orikan coming in at similar points. He could be fun in a game, but there are better choices for the points.


Trazyn in barge is only ~45pts more then many of us have been paying for lords for years and years... and he comes with loads of bonuses (such as being scoring and almost always being on the table, so you can skimp on troops a little).
... I can think of better options, but when he does start working for you he will be devastating.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Tim/Steve said:


> Trazyn in barge is only ~45pts more then many of us have been paying for lords for years and years... and he comes with loads of bonuses (such as being scoring and almost always being on the table, so you can skimp on troops a little).
> ... I can think of better options, but when he does start working for you he will be devastating.


He's certainly one of our best anti-horde options anyway. Think of IG or Orks...


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## VicGin

I am going to have to disagree.

Sweep attack (or assault) against orks kills .83 orks. If he does happen to trigger the blast he will kill 74 points worth of orks (12 boys) with the blast (if there are 30 boys in the unit).

Sweep attack against guard kills .83 guardsmen (does better in assault killing 1.11 guardsmen). If the blast triggers he kills 15 points worth of guard - 3 guardsmen out of an infantry squad of 10 (b/c lets face it - who in their right mind will run their guard in a blob against him).

Both of these options leave him (and more importantly his ride) close to the squad (and possibly army) that he just swept over.

A similarly costed ghost ark + 10 warriors (in rapid fire) will reliably kill 9.9 orks or 13 guardsmen (assuming no cover). And are better anti-armor (almost 5 glances!).

In an army that already has good anti-infantry why would you take him? He's scoring and durable - thats cool, i get it. But so are the warriors + ark (and yes I realize its not an either/or question - take both, have fun!). 

Compared to other hq choices that are comparable in cost and either make your army better (nemasor), give you a mobility advantage and _are_ scary in cc (orikan), or shoots lightning out of his arse (imotekh) - why?

Saying _if_ he kills, and _if_ they roll lots of 4+'s then _if_ they proceed to fail their armour saves in a tactics thread is much like saying "this one time I totally killed two land raiders with my missile launcher long fangs." Sure it could happen, but its not really a tactic you can rely on.


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## Tim/Steve

Well your numbers are all off, since he is S5 not S4...

Other then that you've kinda missed the point of Trazyn's barge, and have forgotten that we're not just mathammering with numbers.
Trazyn in his barge can move fast, get amoungst the enemy early, stay hard to kill (moving over 6" and/or getting 4+ cover save) and generally feck up their plans... average kills doesn't really matter, its the potential that will play havoc on the opponent's plans.

For example- you raised the point that an IG player might split his blobs into small units if a necron player had taken Trazyn.... that's already a victory for the necron player. Pure win.


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## VicGin

Those numbers are at S5. The url is in there , let me know if i missed something.

I think that the point that you're missing is that you're relying on the non-necron player to make mistakes and get worried when they see Trazyn flying towards them. If they don't make mistakes and are competent they know what he can do and should respond accordingly. Sure that player might get burnt by Trazyn once in a blue moon, but the other times Trazyn does less than the equivalent in warriors would do. 

Tactics like this work don't work against good players.

It's less "Crap its Trazyn!!!" more "oh, it's Trazyn. . .". He not exactly a Loganbomb.

About the guard splitting being pure win - the guard player gives more kill points in 33% of the scenarios. So 33% of the time its "pure win". Otherwise 66% of the time he has more scoring units.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

A squad of ten Warriors in a Ghost Ark is an obvious threat. A cackling old madcron zooming around on a floating table with a staff that hurts people's thoughts is not really going to rank very high in your opponent's target priority, especially when you have a Doom Scythe and a Monolith blasting things apart.

It is more the novelty of Trazyn than his direct, mathhammer appeal. After all, psychology plays an immensely important part in Warhammer. If I paint my Immortals with plenty of gold finery they'll be targeted more than if they had the same dull metal effect I've painted onto my Warriors, for example.

EDIT: It's true; if I don't know every unit in my opponent's codex, their pros and cons etc. I will be a grossly misinformed commander, will duly blame my various minions, and resolve to play against people who aren't fielding a mass of grey plastic against me in future. :laugh:


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## VicGin

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> cackling old madcron zooming around on a floating table with a staff that hurts people's thoughts


Love the imageryk:

I can get behind novelty, and fun:friends:. But saying that he could be fun to use, and saying that using him is a sound strategy that will work on all sorts of players using all sorts of armies is two different things. Relying on your opponent to be confused/freaked out by your strategy is not reliable.

Granted if Trazyn has a great game the first time he is used he could get quite the reputation locally.


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## Tim/Steve

VicGin said:


> I think that the point that you're missing is that you're relying on the non-necron player to make mistakes and get worried when they see Trazyn flying towards them. If they don't make mistakes and are competent they know what he can do and should respond accordingly. Sure that player might get burnt by Trazyn once in a blue moon, but the other times Trazyn does less than the equivalent in warriors would do.


Really not. If the enemy are responding then I have the initiative... that's half the battle won already: you want the opponent to be reacting to what you are doing and not forging the game the way they want it played. As for mistakes: they don't matter much if you use Trazyn right.
EG- you are faced by a blob of 30 Orks. Trazyn will likely be able to sweep them turn 1... he'll likely force the ork player to allocate a wound onto the nob (but cause 2 wounds, or roll a 6 to hit and about 40% of that unit will die). Now the ork player has a problem: he can either ignore Trazyn and hope that he rolls under average on his sweeps (and he'll still be a fast moving scoring unit), or he can delay his advance to try to deal with him... but in an AV11 rear armour vehicle its only PKs which can hurt the barge, and they'll be hitting on 6s. Either way Trazyn is going to do something to change the game in your favour.
As for an equivalent points worth of warriors being better: well you get about 20 warriors... which would be at long range managing about 7 wounds (dropping to either 4 or 3 if the orks have either KFF or standard cover saves). Meanwhile Trazyn will kill about 12 orks if he manages to have a wound allocated (and not saved) by a boy. The warriors can beat that if they are in close range... but that then means they have a unit of boyz within 12", meaning you are within the ork charge range next turn.



VicGin said:


> Tactics like this work don't work against good players.
> 
> It's less "Crap its Trazyn!!!" more "oh, it's Trazyn. . .". He not exactly a Loganbomb.


Its a tactic that gives the opponent the choice of 2 poor decisions (unless you make a mistake with where you leave Trazyn: like within 12" of a meltagun), being a good player makes no difference.
As for not being a massively expensive, slow moving anti-elite/tank unit, I quite agree, Trazyn is nothing like... but then he isn't trying to be.



VicGin said:


> About the guard splitting being pure win - the guard player gives more kill points in 33% of the scenarios. So 33% of the time its "pure win". Otherwise 66% of the time he has more scoring units.


Exact opposite reasoning: although by your reasoning that would be 0% "pure win", since only a complete idiot of an IG player would split a blob unit ina KP game just to protect from Trazyn. These are why I said it was pure win:
*Annihilation*: the IG player would never split his blobs. You then have a unit that can potentially rape his units... but more importantly the IG player knows that. They'll worry about that and might miss other things (misdirection) and also try to kill you before you can smack his unit around. This isn't a mistake but is exactly what the necron player would want: your shooting a bullet magnet (cheap AV13/11 vehicle possibly with a cover save with a respawning character)... this is exactly the sort of tactic to use against good players: you both know what's happening, but that doesn't mean you can be stopped.
*Objectives*: IG player may split his units, meaning you are more ignorable... but you've robbed them of the advantages of blobbing without having to do anything, and then are a somewhat ignorable scoring unit fast enough to swiftly get to any objective on the board. You have just become the equivalent of an Eldar jetbike unit... except you're even harder to kill (and have a pretty decent cannon still).


Trazyn on barge isn't a nob biker unit... its a fun tactic/unit that will be fun and gives you lots of options ont he battlefield. It isn't a tourny winning powerhouse... but then no-one has claimed it as such.

EDIT- just seen the last 2 posts:



VicGin said:


> I can get behind novelty, and fun:friends:. But saying that he could be fun to use, and saying that using him is a sound strategy that will work on all sorts of players using all sorts of armies is two different things. Relying on your opponent to be confused/freaked out by your strategy is not reliable.


No-one has said anything of the sort. He's useful against hoard armies... against mech or TEQ/MEQ armies he's effectively relegated to being a fast moving objective grabber. But against a hoard it doesn't matter how cool the opponent stays, he's still going to be a bastard to deal with.


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## VicGin

Tim/Steve said:


> hope that he rolls under average on his sweeps


Thing is, the ork player doesn't have to hope that. On average  Trazyn will do one wound before saves to those orks (and unless a 6 is rolled it will go on the nob - so i guess that's a victory of sorts). Instead Trazyn needs to be the one hoping that he rolls over average. And that there aren't any deffrollas around :winkand again that depends on army composition and deployment). 

Yes, he gives necrons an advantage against horde guard if they blob their army in a killpoint game against him. They might lose 15 guardsmen then - 75 points worth. 

He doesn't present enough threat on average to be worried about even by a horde player. So yeah, he can pick off a few infantry here or there and claim objectives - which is fun but not really as competitive as the other HQs.


He's not really that useful in an army which already excels at anti-infantry. Warriors in an ark (which i mentioned before - not 20 foot warriors) have 18" rapidfire range (move 6" + 12" rapidfire). Trazyn on the barge has about 19" of range (accounting for getting the tail end of the barge over the model he's flying over. Could be more or less tho - don't have the model. Assumed it was about as big as a rhino. Correct me if I'm wrong)

For the same points the other HQ's are more useful to the army. Never said that it wasn't a fun tactic - just questioned it's usefulness. IMO there are better ways to spend his points. His resiliance and the fact he can grab objectives is nifty - but I don't feel it's worth the points.

Please explain why you would take one over even a generic lord in an all comers list. The lord would at least provide reliable anti tank on the barge (which necrons lack). If you're not tailoring to horde lists why take Trazyn on the barge? There is more efficient anti-infantry elsewhere in the codex. 

And maybe no one said its tournament winning, but I do recall someone saying that it was an "evil" strategy:



Tim/Steve said:


> Holy crap that's evil... your sir may be a total bastard





Tim/Steve said:


> It isn't a tourny winning powerhouse... but then no-one has claimed it as such.


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## Scarab17

*The Odd Couple*

Personally I'm using Nemessor Zandrekh on the command barge and Vargard Obyron leading either my royal court or a squad of other heavy hitters. Vargard's Duty means that Obyron and any unit he's with doesn't scatter when deepstriking within six inches of Zandrekh. 

First turn I have Zandrekh give his barge stealth and then move flat out for a 3++ save. If Obyron is leading a melee unit then I'll move into a nice bit of LOS blocking cover and have Obyron deepstrike his unit right beside the command barge. Ideally this is to set up for an assault on something juicy in the next turn. 

If Obyron has a shooty unit then I'll use this to set them up for either some nice sniping or massive rapid fire goodness. Also, while not able to grab objectives himself, Obyron could easily drag along a troop choice for scoring.


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