# Recoil on a laser weapon...WHAT?!?



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

This just needs a quick answer, but how is there a kick back on a laser weapon?? One of the great things about a laser in terms of military adventures is the fact that there is no recoil, it is like aiming a flashlight at someone and killing them. So how in the world is there a recoil on these laser weapons in the world of 40k?

I love the Dan Abnett's Ghost series, LOVE!!!!! but seriously, every time I hear him talk about a recoil on a laser round, all I do is cringe. Someone plz explain to me why this is.


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## Eerie (Oct 30, 2010)

Photons have momentum. So yeah, you get recoil. How do you think Solar Sails work?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

And not to mention it's more dramatic to have a giant laser that kicks like mule....than a giant laser which a 2 year old can hold still.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Pretty much what is already listed. But in actually there would be no kick.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah, it would... But could you feel it? Not likely. Certainly not to the degree that Mr. Abnett shows in his books. Really, there are so many things wrong with the laser weapons of the 41st that you shouldn't even bother with it.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

CJay said:


> Someone plz explain to me why this is.


because there fictional sci-fi stories with no basis on real life facts made to purely entertain not to be science lessons.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

In real life there would be no kick, but i think Abnett says there is a kick to make you believe not just any one can pick up a lasrifle and not struggle to use it, especially when they have been put switched to high out put. Or are extremly powerful like Mad Larkins sniper rifle.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, there really could be various reasons for the recoil.

For instance, I get the impression it's not a long-lasting, steady beam that's fired, but rather a "pulse"-style shot. Perhaps the recoil is not due to the beam itself (like it would be when the discharge of a kinetic round occurs with a modern carbine, for instance), but due to the firing mechanism inherent to the carbine, to generate the pulse.

Just a thought.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Given the fx used in DoW and Fire Warrior, the above post by Phoebus seems to make sense.

Even though they`re all shit games. I think Phoebus has it. :good:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well it is t really a laser pulse since we can see it. A real laser pulse would move faster than the human eye could detect. Tbh, isn't really anything other than a fictional weapon thought up with poor science.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Eh, you know what I mean. I don't imply a "pulse" in the technical sense, but a concentration of sufficient intensity and duration as to manifest as a "bolt" of sorts.

Ultimately, I find it--no offense--kind of pointless to blame it on "poor science". Central to the mythos of this game are space-faring voyages through hell, after all. :biggrin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, yes, I know what you meant and you are getting at my point. It is pointless to attempt to understand the illogical through logical means. It just just won't work. Their universe has a totally different set of laws, apparently, so using ours to understand theirs is silly. Just have fun with it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To each their own, I suppose. To some, myself as well to some extent, finding some method in the madness is part of the fun.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I always thought the visible beam was some sort of tracer. So the shooter could get a general idea of where his shots are landing.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Plausible!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, if it was firing photons, you couldn't make a tracer. At least not to my knowledge. You would have to slow down light considerably in order for our eyes to see it... But then again it would fry our retina so that shouldn't be a problem. Lol


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, it would somehow change a portion of the laser or be a totally different component that created something different than the las fire itself. Something visible.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Well, if it was firing photons, you couldn't make a tracer. At least not to my knowledge. You would have to slow down light considerably in order for our eyes to see it... But then again it would fry our retina so that shouldn't be a problem. Lol


Wouldn't it make a tracer if it bounced off the dust in the atmosphere? Like with a torchbeam? Assuming it didn't just fry the dust.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Read this....
http://thevirtuosi.blogspot.com/2010/04/today-id-like-to-approach-question-near.html

Then this...
http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2010/04/laser_rifle_recoil.php


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@Rich
It could, I suppose. But that would require a lot of reflective particulates in the air and it wouldn't exactly be something you should be depending on in a fight.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

the Laser could be visible because its fiction?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

We look at these technologies through our own tech-lens; this is unavoidable as this is the only basis for comparison we have. To me, these things have been made at the end of millenia of progression in laser tech. To get to a place where it is cheaper, easier and more reliable to arm huge numbers of troops with lasguns over the projectile weapons we use now, then there will have been numerous, not just leaps in tech, but paradigm shifts that change not just how we view the problems, but the questions we ask ourselves, redefining the entire field into something new.
EG. Go back to the end of the English Civil War, and ask a master Artillerist to destroy a city with his cannons. He would say it would be impossible. Ask him to do it with a single weapon and he would think you were possessed.
Fast forwards to WWI. Now ask the master Artillerist to destroy a city with his guns. He would think you were mad, but would then get on with the job of getting the guns together and the shells and start the years-long pounding. Ask him to use one weapon and he would think you were odd.
WWII. Flatten a city? OK. BY the end of the war, planes have changed not just the problem, but how we look at it. It's not a matter of heavy guns anymore, but horsepower and aeronautics. A single weapon? Again, the technology forces a redefinition of the issue. No longer do we need loads of planes, just 1, and this brings with it another redefinition of the issue.
So, the lasgun as it exists in 40k is impossible to us no matter how we look at the issue. But the real point is that us, now, and us, in the future, aren't looking at the same problems or asking the same questions. Which leaves the space for these things to exist without truly being impossible.

GFP


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Fellas cheesy just answered the question with some awesome fuckin evidence...

Question number 2: also with las guns, why the hell is Larks and the other snipers taking account for wind?? ITS A LASER!! there is no force of gravity acting upon it. If they talked about particles fouling up the intensity, I could believe it, but having Larks talk about cross winds and shit, It doesnt matter with a beam of super concentrated light!!


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

CJay said:


> This just needs a quick answer, but how is there a kick back on a laser weapon?? One of the great things about a laser in terms of military adventures is the fact that there is no recoil, it is like aiming a flashlight at someone and killing them. So how in the world is there a recoil on these laser weapons in the world of 40k?
> 
> I love the Dan Abnett's Ghost series, LOVE!!!!! but seriously, every time I hear him talk about a recoil on a laser round, all I do is cringe. Someone plz explain to me why this is.


Laser weapons have recoil for the same reasons that Bolters that fire caseless rounds eject shells.

It makes the setting seem more epic.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

CJay said:


> Question number 2: also with las guns, why the hell is Larks and the other snipers taking account for wind?? ITS A LASER!! there is no force of gravity acting upon it. If they talked about particles fouling up the intensity, I could believe it, but having Larks talk about cross winds and shit, It doesnt matter with a beam of super concentrated light!!


*Facepalm* It is FICTION. It isn't suppose to make sense, just sound cool.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> *Facepalm* It is FICTION. It isn't suppose to make sense, just sound cool.


But it bothers me soo!!!!!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MISCONCEPTION: a lasgun fires a laser.

It does not. As stated in the Imperial Munitorum Manual (pg. 60), the lasgun fires "an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shell."

So stop expecting it to act like concentrated light, please. :biggrin:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> MISCONCEPTION: a lasgun fires a laser.
> 
> It does not. As stated in the Imperial Munitorum Manual (pg. 60), the lasgun fires "an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shell."
> 
> So stop expecting it to act like concentrated light, please. :biggrin:


damn, beat me to it!:goodpost:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin,

You said what I wanted to, but more aptly.

Mossy Toes,

You stated what I suspected was the case, but could not offer for lack of an Imperial Munitorum Manual...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

CJay said:


> But it bothers me soo!!!!!


then don't read it, go read some boring science book


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

At the risk of being annoying,
regarding a laser gun , that could effectively have a tracer effect if one would have one out of so many laser pulses (and yeah it would be more efficient to be pulses) would have a different frequency that would scatter in the atmosphere creating a fading tracer effect.
But hey a lasgun is not a laser gun


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> MISCONCEPTION: a lasgun fires a laser.
> 
> It does not. As stated in the Imperial Munitorum Manual (pg. 60), the lasgun fires "an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shell."
> 
> So stop expecting it to act like concentrated light, please. :biggrin:


So that's lasguns fire *las-ROUNDS*. Las-*ROUND*, as in something comparable to being physical (a bullet or a shell).

Apparently, it just fires such a bolt at the speed of a laser. Does this mean we'd have something more comparable to Star Wars than, say, Dawn of War? I kinda like the millions of criss-crossing beams of blinding light. Thanks Mossy!

Two pages of discussion wasted, though. *Nelson from The Simpsons: HA-HA!*


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Mossy toes hit the nail on the head with that one IMO.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

well since its going faster than sound the recoil could be from the small sonic boom generated.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warhammer 40k = doctor who style soft sci-fi science. Good for entertainment value, but otter nonsense when looked at scientifically. Seriously their are hundreds of cases of this pseudo science in 40k, and laz weapons aren't even on the top 10 offenses.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> then don't read it, go read some boring science book


How about you suck my dick....


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

CJay said:


> How about you suck my dick....


That was just uncalled for. unish:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

CJay said:


> How about you suck my dick....


How old are you, exactly? 8? Grow up.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

The Adeptus Mechanicus purposefully added recoil to make their cheap dollar-store flashlights look like expensive, powerful laser guns.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> @Rich
> It could, I suppose. But that would require a lot of reflective particulates in the air and it wouldn't exactly be something you should be depending on in a fight.


Isn't that equation figuring out the recoil on a laser weapon occurring in a vacuum?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

What equation? I never referenced the equation. That was some other dude. And, it shouldn't really matter since if the force that is exerted is almost nil it is almost nil. Presuming the shot occurs in a vacuum just makes the equation simpler. But then again I don't really know much more than basic physics. I prefer chemistry really.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Warhammer 40k = doctor who style soft sci-fi science. Good for entertainment value, but otter nonsense when looked at scientifically. Seriously their are hundreds of cases of this pseudo science in 40k, and laz weapons aren't even on the top 10 offenses.


Sonic screwdriver.


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

Whatever it fires, we know that it glows and that it is hot (numerous references to the 'heat of passing lasrounds' abound throughout the novels). Like anything hot, one presumes that it would 'cool' in the surrounding air, so the further it goes, the colder it is (maybe that's the range-restriction on a lasround, then?) So, it is safe to assume that the single hottest point of the round is just as it fires, while it is inside whatever mechanism generates it (which is probably at a similar temperature as a result). So, the biggest temperature change experienced by the round is at the moment it leaves the barrel, when the superhot round meets the relatively cool air. This could easily cause a blast of some sort, which could be interpreted as recoil. 

Conversely, the mechanism which generates the lasround may itself become unacceptably hot as a result, and need to cool off rapidly in order to not degrade dangerously in the presence of heat. The superhot gases left in and around the creation mechanism may be forcibly vented by the gun itself; if they are all vented in a downward direction, that would create a phenomenon similar to recoil as well.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

In the lexicanum it is stated clearly with reference that the lasgun is a laser gun firing a focused beam of light, I know the lexicanum is not the most reliable source but can someone check the reference (I do not have it)?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

If you went back in time to when the first muskets were being used and told someone about automatic weapons, they would have laughed at you. There would have many reasons for them to say that such a thing was impossible including the metal being used; unreliable gunpowder; the lack of rifling, or even the knowledge of such a thing being widespread; breech-loading being impossible at the time and muzzle-loading not allowing rapid-firing.
However, despite what was received wisdom back then, we now have loads of automatic weapons. So, going the long way around, what's impossible-sounding today is not necessarily impossible tomorrow. It's not just the knowledge of lasers that limits whether we can build a lasgun, but power considerations and making the parts small enough to be man-portable, at the very least.
If we were talking about a world set in the present or near future, then I would agree that the science is poor. But we're not. We're talking about Humanity in the year 40,000. In leass than 100 years, man went from not being able to fly, to putting a man on the Moon. How can anyone call anything impossible after that?

GFP


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## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

Gotta agree, if something is considered impossible today, but has been theorised then you don't know if its going to work until you construct and use the lasgun.

We're all just going to have to wait awhile though, like 40,000 years awhile.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Man, I bet some people queried Han Solo's blaster in star wars too! ;-)


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Everyone should check out the segment done by the history channel show "Th Universe" on the future of warfare. It is really good, and for a crowd like this very appealing. 

Also it throws a monkey wrench into everything that is practically 40k. They do an entire thing on lasers as a weapon, basically what is described in the 40k universe, is not a laser.

I dont remember, who said it, but the idea that the las round is not a laser at all, just merely has the name.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Also understand something. If you place enough energy in the firing chamber, it's not the energy that is making the kick. But you have atmosphere being heated in the firing chamber, and ejecting from the barrel causes the kick. Nothing to do with the laser or energy bolt itself, but from the effects of it. Lasguns probably don't kick in a vacuum, but when atmosphere is present, they would have a sympathetic kick. The higher power the las bolt, the stronger kick.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I would say that the lasguns almost certainly do NOT kick in a vaccum.

Also, aren't lasguns solar powered?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Lasguns?... How is there possibly any recoil, I mean, everytime I turn on my flash light I don't get a recoil :biggrin:


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