# The First Heretic



## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i just bought the book today and am about 100 pages in and i have something to say about the Emperor. is he a complete idiot? i recognize that he did not want to be worshiped like a god or have anyone believe he was a god. i also recognize that he was wiping all religion from every culture the Great Crusade touched, but to take the most loyal son and his legion and shame them like he did has got to be the stupidest thing he could have done. 

i knew that he had reprimanded Lorgar but i did not know it had been so bad. he practically just handed over the second largest legion to chaos. im apalled that he would go to that extent to prove a point to Lorgar, i mean his worlds were completely compliant, who the fuck cares if they think you are a god because everyone knows you practically are. what a stupid prick, i just cant believe he would do that to Lorgar of all his sons and not forsee the consequences.


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## Tanrel (May 8, 2008)

So...what happened to poor Lorgar?


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## arturslv (May 12, 2010)

Chaos is A-okay!


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Many people believe that he was in on it, or that chaos fooled him as well. Hopefully we will find out during the heresy.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree that this was a huge mistake by the Emperor. (obvious because now he is on the golden thrown) It was as large a mistake as his Actions against Magnus. Both Magnus and Logar would have been loyal to the bitter end had he just appreciated them. The utter desolation Logar felt after the humiliation at Monachia should have been expected by his Father. He could have done this in numerous different ways....but then we wouldn't have this great world to read about and play in. Overall this was likely my favorite of the series to date.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Magnus was doomed to fall actually, it was never a matter of if, simply when. I still don't like Lorgar and am slightly bitter that he didn't bite it during the Heresy or sometime after, rematch with Corax on the cards i think. The things that irritates me the most is that Lorgar never once questions why the Emperor would try and hide the chaos gods from the Imperium, never once thinks that he may have had a very good reason for trying to keep chaos a secret. He was just far too easily led astray imo


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

its like Kor Phaeron says, Lorgar trusts too deeply and too easily


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I got the impression that even by the end of the book Lorgar has yet to throw his lot in with chaos. He is still confused and in many ways weak when TFH ends.

I suspect he has yet to develop into the character that eventually becomes 'Lorgar the daemon prince'.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The things that irritates me the most is that Lorgar never once questions why the Emperor would try and hide the chaos gods from the Imperium, never once thinks that he may have had a very good reason for trying to keep chaos a secret. He was just far too easily led astray imo


Well thats easy. The Chaos Gods tell Lorgar that they made a deal with the Emperor to help create the Primarchs, and the Emperor reneged on the deal and sealed the Primarchs away. Thus he would want to hide the existence of Chaos to hide his duplicity in his deal with them.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I was a bit confused for a while during the first section of the novel as to the reasons of the Emperor's decision to destroy Monarchia, they just didn't seem solid enough to be a good enough excuse for his decision.

I will say this though, the Emperor saw that the only way to unite the wide spread human race under one code was with a iron fist, harsh punishments quickly delivered. He treats his own son here in the same way he has ordered imperial arbites to punish civilians and such. He knew how much Monarchia meant to Lorgar and thus knew that it would send him the message clearest and fastest. 

In fact, the Emperor's plan almost seems to work. The XVII legion within the next few years afterward and then the following forty years at that, becomes one of the most successful legions in the great crusade. As it says near the end of the book, they surpass in military achievements all of the other legions save for Horus's and Guilliman's. 

What the Emperor does not know, or at least does not appear to know, is that his sons two right hand men, Kor Phaeron and Erebus are whispering the corruptions of the chaos powers into Lorgar's ears, not only afterward, but had been slowly for quite some time. I'm actually not sure how long erebus was corrupt for, I guess its supposed to be just as long as Kor phaeron, but Kor is much more obvious about it to me but he is human/not full astartes so I guess that makes sense.

You could also see it as proof of the Emperor's own statement that he is not a god. His decision to utterly destroy the perfect city may indeed be a flawed one, and since he is not a god, he makes mistakes.


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## Captain Sor Talgron (Sep 10, 2010)

Im glad you mentioned Erebus and Kor phaeron, unxpekted. 

Kor Phaeron is just a steroided up human, in Terminator armour, nothing special no special mind altering training. He was corrupt from the start as we find out.

Now the Emperor is said to be the most powerful psyker in the Human Race, he has powers beyond belief and the ability to read the minds of men as we have seen in several books.

The question is, how the hell does the Emperor not spot Kor Phaeron's true thoughts and feelings?


Does Magnus not warn Lorgar when he visits Colchis of Kor Phaeron? or is it Erebus?

If Magnus spots their potential threat, why does the Emperor not with his mind reading tricks?

Why would you leave your son open to corruption, especially after being so harshly reprimanded??!!!


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I cant remember if Magnus says something about them or not. If he did notice something then, well, we all know magnus and his legion turn to chaos as well so who knows what Magnus's reasons may have been if he did detect somethign and not say anything about it.

I dont think the Emperor was paying attention to anyone but Lorgar and/or Kor must have been very good at what he was doing, he had been hiding his true ambitions form Lorgar, a son of the Emperor, for his entire life. Even librarians can have a hard time finding corruption from chaos in one's mind when directly reading them. There is no exact definition that I know of that states the extent or limit of the Emperor's powers.

so thats the best answer I can think of, along with ABD doing his best to create a plot around the loose ends of the previous word bearer fluff already set out there.


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## X FiftY 1ne (Aug 30, 2010)

As far as the big E reading minds...it's hard to say. He's such a mysterious character that we really don't know much of anything really, say for the obvious. Other than that, he could very well have known of the corruption taking place within his sons and let the heresy happen (for reasons unknown). Or, he might not of known simple as that. He may be the most powerful Psyker ever but, he is still bound by the mortal realm and reading the thoughts of minds isn't as simple as reading a book. 

I've been reading TFH for the second time now and I'm still so confused as to what's actually taking place during this so called "vision" Ingethel is showing Argel and the marines. Ingethel states this is a "vision" and is showing the marines the past, how their fathers were created, the pact with chaos the emporer made, and the Fall of Eldar thus creating the EoT which we all know of today. 

Was this really a vision? The marines are told not to disturb any of the scientist or they might alert the Emporer. This seems odd, because if it's only a vision wouldn't that mean they're simply observing? How can you disturb a vision? This makes me think Ingethel actually brought the marines back in time and they're literally the reason the Geller Field went down and Chaos was able to snatch the Primarchs Up.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

the warp can be used to travel forward and backward in time seeing as how time holds no real sway over the warp. hence i believe they are actually being brought back, like when Horus himself was brought back and the Emperor looks right at him as if acknowledging he is there. maybe they are somewhat ethereal and if they touch something they will anchor themselves in that time period and become real again? allowing the emperor and custodes to murder them on sight


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

a great read. ADB surpassed everything he has written, (atleast that I've read). Lorgar is a tragic hero that I could easily relate to.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> the warp can be used to travel forward and backward in time seeing as how time holds no real sway over the warp. hence i believe they are actually being brought back, like when Horus himself was brought back and the Emperor looks right at him as if acknowledging he is there. maybe they are somewhat ethereal and if they touch something they will anchor themselves in that time period and become real again? allowing the emperor and custodes to murder them on sight


exactly right from what I can tell. They are physical enough to effect the world they are in but not be seen, like a poltergeist or something. But yeah as far as the time thing goes that is why they have to go into the warp in order to see this 'vision', because time can be bent inside of it, as can anything else... matter, spirits, etc. so the time is manipulated by going into the past and argel tal and his marines are manipulated by becoming partially real.


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## X FiftY 1ne (Aug 30, 2010)

So these events being partially real, do you think the Geller Field being cut down by the marines was the direct cause of Chaos swooping the pods up. Also, if this is the case then Horus slamming his hand on one of the missing legions Primarch incubation tanks also happened. Which would explain why it's so hush hush about the missing legions. How would you explain that your very sons and grandsons if you will (Astartes) were manipulated through time and the cause of many of the problems. We know some Primarchs were horribly exposed to the Warp, more so than others. 

Which leads me to believe that the Emperor knew about the coming Heresy and let it happen. Why did he let it happen though? Well, that's hard to say. Maybe he knew the only possible way to win the battle against Chaos was to become a god Himself...as Chaos seems to always imply. Only by being placed on the Golden Throne could he gain the power through prayer and worship to one day finally break free from the mortal realm and battle the Chaos gods on their own turf. He couldn't of just said, "ok, well I told you all to not worship me as a god, but I changed my mind". 

This conflicts with him leaving the Crusade and handing reigns over to Horus as "Warmaster" so he could work on Webway. Well, what if the Webway was his initial plan seeing as the Black Library resides in it and his plan was to seek out knowledge to become a god but, Magnus put a stop to this accidentally. The heresy was his backup plan. Being wounded enough to be placed on the Throne, barely holding on but enough that through years of violence and war people would turn to him for prayer and worship. Giving him the power he always wanted albeit, in a different way

These are all just theories but it's still fun debating. 40k lore is the best. I think the Age of Darkness novel is going to shed some light on very vague subjects.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

hmm interesting Ideas, but to me there is NO doubt that the Emperor knew about Horus and what was going to happen. Why did he take Dorn back to Terra to fortify the Palace, the Sigillite knew too, he was as great a Psyker as the Emperor, and IMO a better one. He knew about the Heresy before Garro got back on the Eisenstein. It was a joke, the Emperor knew, went home got ready, THOUGHT he was going to win was maimed and well is dead IMO too (dead on the throne, the people MADE to believe he is alive) by the son he "Loved" Same thing with Lorgar and Magnus, he gave them INCREDIBLE minds, hell he created each Primarch and thus gave them the abilities each had, sent the *** assed Ultramarines to insult Lorgar for doing what the Emperor CREATED him to do... I'd be pretty pissed, but Chaos had NO power at all in the mortal realm, the Necrons had nullified it with the pylons on Cadia... and the Emperor goaded Chaos and pissed the gods off enough for them to want to exact revenge.. haha and they bloody well got it... I feel for Lorgar, and Magnus, I even feel for Horus... don't know about Mortarion yet and it'll be interesting to see how the Emperor fucked the other Primarchs over. I'm an Imperial sympathizer... I play IG and Salamanders, but the Emperor is a fuck and got what was comming to him, now he's a cripple and needs nursing students to wipe his ass and give him bed pans, he fucked up and he gets an eternity confined in a dead body HAHA Loser!


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## X FiftY 1ne (Aug 30, 2010)

The Big E is the key player in all of this. This is a given and which is why he's so shrouded in mystery. In his mind alone, all the secrets are there. I don't ask for all his secrets, but I wish we knew just a "tad" more of what was going on in his mind during these times. 

The mans lived for 40,000 years, (Well...30,000 if you don't consider him still alive on the Throne). Throwing us a bone here and there wouldn't be too detrimental to the mysteriousness of the lore. That's A LOT of time


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

haha X Fifty 1ne, I feel like you may have just figured out the ultimate mystery of the ultra complex universe that is 40k, damn.:shok:

as for horus and the one legion he messed with and a lot of mentioning of two lost legions in TFH I feel like we may be learning more about them sooner than later.


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

I think the Rubicon for Lorgar is when he decides the _Lectitio Divinitatus_ is old news and begins crafting his _Book of Lorgar_. It seems to be a clear change from the unswerving (if stubbornly religious) loyalty to the Emperor, a point at which Lorgar experiences doubt and begins to question.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't believe for a second that the Emperor knew about the Heresy and allowed it to happen. It's absurd, it benefitted him in no way at all and even goes against established lore on some issues. Key point being his emotional conflict when fighting Horus at the end, not willing to kill him and trying to bring him back, if you read any of the accounts of the final battle you will see the Emperor is clearly deeply effected by what Horus has become, asking him why he would do it all. A question that is completely irrelevant and pointless if your planning on obliterating Horus in the coming fight


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

maybe it was test and he hoped his sons would not fail him and remain loyal to the imperium, but he found they were just as imperfect as himself eh? eehhh?


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

I liked TFH quite a bit. Fleshed out the Word Bearers very well. But, I found some of the "new" concepts annoying. I didn't like the theory of collusion between the Emperor, and Chaos. I stick to the idea that the only hand the big 4 had was in their kidnapping; and consequent corruption. I do like the idea of the visions taking place in real time. For instance, when they do go back in time they actually affect the environment. This includes when Horus does it and the gang in TFH. I think that is a great way to illustrate the sabotage. As for the "Dude the Emperor is such a dick because he punished his son." Relative to punishments in a normal household what the Emperor did was a severe spanking. He could have purged a large part of Lorgars bitch ass legion. Instead, he settled for showing them the error of their ways. I find it is important to look at the relationship between the Primarch and the Emperor. Especially in how family members interact; for instance Dorn is seen as the Emperors praetorian among the Astartes. One of his favoured sons you could say. It is known that Pertuarbo resented this quite a bit. Mainly cause his legion got shitty assignments. Of course, the big E was under the impression that Pertuarbo was a big boy and could handle his duties as is. I think he treats all his sons in this way. But, these rivalries are the ***** in the armour that chaos slipped through. :gamer1:


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## Captain Sor Talgron (Sep 10, 2010)

Going slightly back to my earlier post on this about the Emperor reading the minds of men and such like, we do have evidence that the Emperor has the ability to access a persons mind e.g.

In Legion John Grammaticus, the man charged with swaying the Alpha Legion on the side of Horus. The book goes into John's memories of the Emperor, and the Emperor knowing his name and his psychic abilities...

In Ravens Flight (audio book) Corax remembers his first meeting with the Emperor, and the Emperor knowing about Corax's special abilities even though no one else knew and he didnt even tell the big E about it.

In Descent of Angels, towards the end of the story i believe Zahariel meets with the Emperor aboard a starship and the Big E reads his mind then, i think...

So it shows that whether you like it or not the Emperor can read your mind without you even knowing about it...

The Emperor should have picked up on Kor Phaeron sooner.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

On the original topic, you have to take into account that _The First Heretic_ was from the Word Bearers' perspective. We don't know the full reasoning behind the Emperor's decisions, all we see is the effect they had on Lorgar and his Legion.

And this is not just confined to _The First Heretic_, most of the Heresy series so far has protrayed the Emperor as a complete idiot, not truly realising or understanding the woes of his _'sons'_ or his Imperium. I believe ADB has spoken about the need to also portray things from the loyalist point of view at some point, thereby balancing the equation. Horus' and Lorgar's decision may seem easily justifiable from the series so far, but what about if we see things from Sanguinius' or Dorn's perspective? I imagine things would look a lot different.

Just a thought.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

^^^agreed, i would like to see a book from a loyalist perspective, BUT i believe that the point of the series is to flesh out exactly why these legions turned and to give us more of an insight into their mindsight and so on and also allow us to see deeper into the Horus Heresy and everything that touched it.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On the original topic, you have to take into account that _The First Heretic_ was from the Word Bearers' perspective. We don't know the full reasoning behind the Emperor's decisions, all we see is the effect they had on Lorgar and his Legion.
> 
> And this is not just confined to _The First Heretic_, most of the Heresy series so far has protrayed the Emperor as a complete idiot, not truly realising or understanding the woes of his _'sons'_ or his Imperium. I believe ADB has spoken about the need to also portray things from the loyalist point of view at some point, thereby balancing the equation. Horus' and Lorgar's decision may seem easily justifiable from the series so far, but what about if we see things from Sanguinius' or Dorn's perspective? I imagine things would look a lot differently.
> 
> Just a thought.


If the loyalist perspective is similar to Prospero Burns I almost wish we wouldn't see it :laugh:

Books from the loyalist perspective could be really great, it would add a good amount of balance to the series. Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Blood Angels would all be great.

Though it would be nice, for the final book of the HH series to be "Actions of the Father." A book told from the Emperors point of view that only touches upon his views of the major incidents in the Horus Heresy series, like the Trial of Magnus, the Unleashing of the Wolves, the Betrayal of Horus, the punishment of the Word Bearers, all of them. I think that would make an excellent ending to the series. Just remember you heard it here first if this actually happens :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> ^^^agreed, i would like to see a book from a loyalist perspective, BUT i believe that the point of the series is to flesh out exactly why these legions turned and to give us more of an insight into their mindsight and so on and also allow us to see deeper into the Horus Heresy and everything that touched it.


Indeed, and that's why I believe most of the series thus far has been from the traitors perspective. Because the most important thing to do intially with a series like this is to explore the reasoning behind the betrayals.

However, the loyalist perspective still needs to be explored just to balance the equation and to reveal the bigger picture.



Wusword77 said:


> If the loyalist perspective is similar to Prospero Burns I almost wish we wouldn't see it :laugh:
> 
> Books from the loyalist perspective could be really great, it would add a good amount of balance to the series. Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Blood Angels would all be great.


Indeed. 

Although _Prospero Burns_ didn't deal with the loyalists perspective or decisions regarding Horus' betrayal. It was obviously based around the build up to the Burning of Prospero, and indeed the Vlka Fenryka's perspective isn't representative of the loyalists as a whole, if anything it's entirely unique.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And this is not just confined to _The First Heretic_, most of the Heresy series so far has protrayed the Emperor as a complete idiot, not truly realising or understanding the woes of his _'sons'_ or his Imperium. I believe ADB has spoken about the need to also portray things from the loyalist point of view at some point, thereby balancing the equation. Horus' and Lorgar's decision may seem easily justifiable from the series so far, but what about if we see things from Sanguinius' or Dorn's perspective? I imagine things would look a lot different.
> 
> Just a thought.


See, I don't necessarily agree with this.

I think a strong point of the series thus far has been basing the Heresy on a meticulous, diabolical conspiracy orchestrated by the Ruinous Powers and executed by carefully vetted pawns. While said woes might exist (however weak they sound... I'm looking at you, Perturabo), the real impetus of the Heresy is Kor Phaeron and Erebus' influence on Lorgar, the Warmaster's poisoning and subsequent "treatment" on Davin, Fulgrim's possession, Magnus' set-up, etc. Curze, by contrast, is tragic, Angron was broken, and Alpharius had his own motives for turning.

In that sense, I don't feel the Emperor has been depicted as an idiot. I think there has been a consistent portrayal of the Emperor as an incredibly powerful human being, a peerless visionary with goals that transcend the material universe, but also in no way omnipotent or omniscient. He played on a scale never seen before, but his most gains were made at a time when Chaos was more or less "looking the other way". When the Ruinous Powers realize that he is indeed a force to be reckoned with and really turn up the heat on him, we see how far from all-powerful he is: his sons are corrupted and turned against him, his "all-seeing" ability is shrouded, the communications and travels of his Empire are slowed down or outright crippled, etc. In the midst of all this, he is forced to make compromises to keep what he has together--such as Nikaea--but even those ultimately work against him. He's not idiotic; he's just outmatched.

Ultimately, I would be very interested to see a novel that gives us some "behind the scenes" looks, a-la "The First Heretic", at the pre-Heresy Death Guard. Lorgar's fall can be directly attributed to Kor Phaeron and Erebus, and I would not be at all surprised to find out that First Captain Calas Typhon played a similar role in "shaping" Mortarion's conversion.

Cheers,
P.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> See, I don't necessarily agree with this.
> 
> I think a strong point of the series thus far has been basing the Heresy on a meticulous, diabolical conspiracy orchestrated by the Ruinous Powers and executed by carefully vetted pawns. While said woes might exist (however weak they sound... I'm looking at you, Perturabo), the real impetus of the Heresy is Kor Phaeron and Erebus' influence on Lorgar, the Warmaster's poisoning and subsequent "treatment" on Davin, Fulgrim's possession, Magnus' set-up, etc. Curze, by contrast, is tragic, Angron was broken, and Alpharius had his own motives for turning.
> 
> ...



yeah! I agree. Well written and thought out opinion btw :goodpost:


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Outmatched??? 4 gods against Big E, yet the loyalists still prevail!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> See, I don't necessarily agree with this.
> 
> I think a strong point of the series thus far has been basing the Heresy on a meticulous, diabolical conspiracy orchestrated by the Ruinous Powers and executed by carefully vetted pawns. While said woes might exist (however weak they sound... I'm looking at you, Perturabo), the real impetus of the Heresy is Kor Phaeron and Erebus' influence on Lorgar, the Warmaster's poisoning and subsequent "treatment" on Davin, Fulgrim's possession, Magnus' set-up, etc. Curze, by contrast, is tragic, Angron was broken, and Alpharius had his own motives for turning.
> 
> In that sense, I don't feel the Emperor has been depicted as an idiot. I think there has been a consistent portrayal of the Emperor as an incredibly powerful human being, a peerless visionary with goals that transcend the material universe, but also in no way omnipotent or omniscient. He played on a scale never seen before, but his most gains were made at a time when Chaos was more or less "looking the other way". When the Ruinous Powers realize that he is indeed a force to be reckoned with and really turn up the heat on him, we see how far from all-powerful he is: his sons are corrupted and turned against him, his "all-seeing" ability is shrouded, the communications and travels of his Empire are slowed down or outright crippled, etc. In the midst of all this, he is forced to make compromises to keep what he has together--such as Nikaea--but even those ultimately work against him. He's not idiotic; he's just outmatched.


Aye, perhaps I spoke out of turn when I used the term _'idiotic'_. But it still has to be said that several of his decisions do *seem* illogical as things stands. And that's what I meant by saying we need a loyalist perspective to help justify said decisions, by at least giving us a different perspective.

Monarchia for example. He shattered the state of mind of one his Primarchs and Legions, arguably forcing them to take the pilgrimage and the path to heresy. Many people would (and have) argued that the Emperor could have dealt with Lorgar in a much more subtle way, tempering his philosophical nature and encouraging him to be more of the warlord he was intended to be. The discovery of Angron, many have argued that this was another example of the Emperor's seemingly illogical behaviour (although I know your opinion on that one  ), as well as the assassination attempts on Curze, keeping secrets from Horus (seemingly for no good reason), and even the treatment of Magnus and the council of Nikaea to lesser extents. There are countless examples of occurences where one can (in-part at least) attribute the fall of the Primarchs to the Emperor's actions. 

That is what I meant, this portrayal of the Emperor seen so far. Yes I agree with everything you said above in regards to him, but I don't think you can really deny that at least some of his actions seem illogical as it stands. This is where I think a loyalist perspective comes in, to temper the viewpoint that many people have that the Emperor preformed many illogical decisions.

But even then I'm not suggesting an intimate exploration of all the Emperor's decisions, it's unclear if we will ever get an intimate view of the Emperor in this series. But at least from the perspective of a loyalist Primarch, or even just a loyalist Astartes or less. Something which would mirror the Emperor's opinion in part, and give us more of an insight. Given that if one looks deep enough, logical justifications can be found (you yourself have given enough spread across several threads) but I still think we need some form of in-context perspective.



AK74Bob said:


> Outmatched??? 4 gods against Big E, yet the loyalists still prevail!


But then the loyalists didn't truly prevail did they? The Heresy was seemingly a victory for the Chaos gods, not the Emperor.


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## Captain Sor Talgron (Sep 10, 2010)

COTE, i whole heartedly agree with you.

As i've stated on several occasions, some of his acts just don't make sense at all.

One thing that begs the question is why would the Emperor recall Dorn back to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace after the Ullanor Campaign (think back to Horus rising)?

Surely with more than half the galaxy conquered, and Horus now managing the Crusade, why on earth would you need to fortify your palace? Whose going to attack you?!

Unless of course the Emperor was preparing himself for a massive war?! Perhaps he intended to turn half his sons against him, to enable him to ascend into God hood?


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

maybe he just thought after fighting the orks for so long and already planning on retiring to terra that the orks might come looking for a fight and if terra and the palace wasnt fortified then he would be in big trouble. just a idea, personally i think the emperor knows more than he lets on.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Captain Sor Talgron said:


> COTE, i whole heartedly agree with you.
> 
> As i've stated on several occasions, some of his acts just don't make sense at all.
> 
> ...


 
As i've said in other threads, i don't believe for a minute the Emperor knew the Heresy was going to happen, let it happen or engineered it at all. 

Why have Dorn fortify Terra? Why wouldn't he? He has just retired from the crusade to finish his vital work on the webway access to free humanity from depending on the warp. Terra is now an even bigger target than before and he is now residing there. The Emperor always had a Legion at his side (The Blood Angels for the most part as his personal guard Legion), why should that change when he retired to Terra? And being as he would be in one place rather than on the move, he needs to fortify his stronghold, Dorn is the obvious choice. Then once the webway is completed, it's now humanitys main entrace to the webway, Terra now needs to be defended more than ever.

I truely see nothing suspect in the Emperor fortifying Terra, it's just logical, tactically and strategically sound and an obvious choice as the Emperors location.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

sounds logic there dude but the question is how can mear mortals seem to get lots of warnings of the heresy, several different individuals from various xeno races also and also several prophecies littered around the galaxy yet the most powerful mortal psyker ever known doesnt get a whiff. seems illogical really.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Isn't Dorn fortifying the palace pre-heresy simply a continuity error?

There are many more logical reasons for Dorn to have travelled to Terra with the Emperor than to fortify the place.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

I believe the Emperor knew that the big 4 were conspiring. But, didn't know every detail. As opposed to the idea of being completely ignorant and IDIOTIC. Even Eldrad only knew that Horus had turned, evidenced by his going to Fulgrim; and we know how that ended. Now I think he believed that this threat would manifest more readily in the masses. This is why he spends alot of resources destroying religions. Though in 40K we later find out it is a great defense. But, Big E sees this as being a major in road. In TFH you see how the obsession with religion causes Lorgar to turn. No one thought the Astartes, much less the Primarchs would fall. 

There is alot of evidence of this in the fluff. In alot of the Heresy books the Astartes consider themselves above "mortals." Above the pettiness and ego, complacency and rivalry. Even Dorn is unwilling to accept his brothers fall. The Primarchs were suppose to be above alot of this shit. But, they weren't they fell like regular men. Whether they were tricked or did so willingly. It is amazing how readily people lay the blame on the Emperor. Instead of the weakness of some of his sons; and Lorgar was weak. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But then the loyalists didn't truly prevail did they? The Heresy was seemingly a victory for the Chaos gods, not the Emperor.


The only victory for Chaos would be the one outlined in Legion. Which was clearly not achieved; 40K is a constant stalemate. That is why there is only war. 
:wild:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree with you for the most part, but chaos did win a victory. Not total victory like they might have wanted, killing the emperor and his loyalists. But they still achieved one of their main objectives which was to get the emperor off their backs and stop his crusade. The Emperor is now totally incapacitated, unable to challenge the gods anymore, his imperium is corrupt and stagnant. The loyalist primarchs are long gone. People, organisations and worlds fall to chaos constantly, fuelling the gods and giving them an endless supply of followers. Chaos did win


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I agree with you for the most part, but chaos did win a victory. Not total victory like they might have wanted, killing the emperor and his loyalists. But they still achieved one of their main objectives which was to get the emperor off their backs and stop his crusade. The Emperor is now totally incapacitated, unable to challenge the gods anymore, his imperium is corrupt and stagnant. The loyalist primarchs are long gone. People, organisations and worlds fall to chaos constantly, fuelling the gods and giving them an endless supply of followers. Chaos did win


But this applies to the Chaos powers as well. After their greatest champion is utterly destroyed. Their greatest minions were hounded into the Eye. Since then they have only cooperated seldomly; launching 13 failed crusades. While there are those who become corrupt by worshiping the big 4. There are also countless Faithful. For every planet that falls how many are found and brought back to the fold; or destroyed and replaced. As for the Emperor having little power. He maintains the signal beacon most responsible for the survival of His Imperium. Arguably the LOTD are his Angels/Daemons, along with the Sanquinor; let alone countless of other events. They may have succeeded in wounding him. But, their forces are in the same boat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Imperators Warden said:


> The only victory for Chaos would be the one outlined in Legion. Which was clearly not achieved; 40K is a constant stalemate. That is why there is only war.
> :wild:


The single objective of the wars of the Horus Heresy that we are aware of (from the chaos gods' perspective) was the removal of the threat the Emperor posed, they achieved this.

40k is a constant stalemate? Ask yourself who benefits from that status quo the most?



Imperators Warden said:


> But this applies to the Chaos powers as well. After their greatest champion is utterly destroyed. Their greatest minions were hounded into the Eye. Since then they have only cooperated seldomly; launching 13 failed crusades. While there are those who become corrupt by worshiping the big 4. There are also countless Faithful. For every planet that falls how many are found and brought back to the fold; or destroyed and replaced. As for the Emperor having little power. He maintains the signal beacon most responsible for the survival of His Imperium. Arguably the LOTD are his Angels/Daemons, along with the Sanquinor; let alone countless of other events. They may have succeeded in wounding him. But, their forces are in the same boat.


You seem to be confusing the two chaos factions by not differentiating between them.

The mortal followers of chaos (as one faction) lost their greatest champion and were routed. But the objective of the chaos gods (as another faction) had already been achieved: the overthrow of the Emperor. They couldn't have cared less that Horus was obliterated and his Legions scattered. They could go back to the Great Game content that their position was secure and unchallenged.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I wouldn't go along with the whole chaos won theory at all. The 40k universe is at a stalemate, the fluff goes to great lengths to constantly remind us of this. Chaos did not win. If it had the whole galaxy would be in a state of what people? You guessed it chaos. Parts of the Imperium are quite stable and free from corruption and the eldar don't seem very chaotic to me.

I realise _Legion_ has given alot of people this notion that should the Emperor ascend the throne then the galaxy will be torn apart in an endless war and chaos will eventually conquer all anyway but don't forget the Cabal's motives and what was shown to the Alpha Legion is anything but certain. Sure the Cabal _say_ that chaos would burn itself out if the emperor was destroyed but it could also make it become even more powerful and perhaps reach a stage whereby it can't be defeated at all if it ever could. 

The other point I've seen made is that, in support of _Legion_, the chaos gods wanted the emperor to ascend the throne and continue the "endless carnage" scenario which I'm not sure I bye either. The chaos gods are victims of their own natures. Khorne will keep on murdering, tzeentch will keep scheming, nurgle will keep infecting and slaanesh will keep on pleasuring itself or whatever it does in its spare time. They don't strike me as the type to pass up on the chance to kill the emperor and take part in the ultimate massacre/orgy/twist of fate/plague that would inevitably ensue. 

One final thing I will note and perhaps the most important is that the chaos gods are notoriously jealous gods and what has their alleged victory gained them? Well ultimately its cost them countless billions of worshippers who now worship a new "god", the Emperor, so to "win" they would have had to eliminate him altogether. Nobody "won" the heresy.


EDIT: Ninja'd by CotE in some regards.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> I wouldn't go along with the whole chaos won theory at all. The 40k universe is at a stalemate, the fluff goes to great lengths to constantly remind us of this. Chaos did not win. If it had the whole galaxy would be in a state of what people? You guessed it chaos. Parts of the Imperium are quite stable and free from corruption and the eldar don't seem very chaotic to me.
> 
> I realise _Legion_ has given alot of people this notion that should the Emperor ascend the throne then the galaxy will be torn apart in an endless war and chaos will eventually conquer all anyway but don't forget the Cabal's motives and what was shown to the Alpha Legion is anything but certain. Sure the Cabal _say_ that chaos would burn itself out if the emperor was destroyed but it could also make it become even more powerful and perhaps reach a stage whereby it can't be defeated at all if it ever could.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

IRRC the whole point of Legion was that the Cabal wanted the Emperor to lose. This would allow Chaos to "WIN." Then their own peculiar drives would cause them to destroy themselves. Causing the Warp to return pre War in Heaven conditions. The Chaos gods wanted to win; as said by NiceGuyEddy. They didn't and don't want the status quo. Unless I am not taking in to account 

BELLFAZOR THE MIGHTY CHAOS GOD OF MODERATION!!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i just had a thought. in TFH it speaks about how the primarchs were apparently created in part by using the warp and ancient magics from the gods themselves and that the gods were jealous that the emp didnt give them their due. looking at the state of the primarchs now the good majority of them have been given back over to the warp. the ones who turned traitor are either dead (horus and curze) or turned into daemon princes of immense power. 

russ is lost in the eye of terror as is corax and apparently vulkan. ferrus manus is dead. jaghatai is in the dark eldar webway, guilliman and dorn and sanguinius are dead. the only one not really given back to the warp in some way is the lion who sleeps under the rock. dont know if this means the gods eventually got their due from the emp or if im just blabbering on but it seems to make sense to me.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye, perhaps I spoke out of turn when I used the term _'idiotic'_. But it still has to be said that several of his decisions do *seem* illogical as things stands. And that's what I meant by saying we need a loyalist perspective to help justify said decisions, by at least giving us a different perspective.


Allow me, then, to admit that I give the Emperor a good deal of "benefit of the doubt" by taking into consideration the out-of-plot fact that, despite the genius of the Primarchs and their father, _conflict needs to happen_ in order for the setting to exist to begin with. 

That having been said! :biggrin:



> Monarchia for example. He shattered the state of mind of one his Primarchs and Legions, arguably forcing them to take the pilgrimage and the path to heresy. Many people would (and have) argued that the Emperor could have dealt with Lorgar in a much more subtle way, tempering his philosophical nature and encouraging him to be more of the warlord he was intended to be.


I believe Argel-Tal's words are damning where this perspective is concerned, though. His stance, throughout the novel, reminds us how vicious his Legion has been when they need to be. You can't be in charge of a force that shatters worlds, culls populations, and wipes out species... only to argue on account of a broken heart when _your_ toy is broken. Well, not without losing your moral ground, at any rate.

As for subtlety... he had fifty years to get on board, and he didn't. Knowing what his father was up to; what his brothers were doing in their father's name; what was he expecting? I mean, my God, he even comments on the missing Primarchs--he had to have known there were consequences to insubordination. Granted, I don't believe he expected to be _murdered and/or banished from living memory,_ but we're talking about a guy who consigns entire species to extinction and sees entire worlds culled of Humanity (if need be).

Thus, I don't see his pilgrimage wasn't forced on by the Emperor. I think it goes back to the influence tools of Chaos (Kor Phaeron, Erebus) exerted on him. His lieutenants wanted him to do certain things for certain reasons and steered him to practices and doctrines that were contrary to everything he had been ordered to do. Powerful forces were working to ensure he had no happy ending.

In that light, asking why the Emperor wasn't more subtle with Lorgar (assuming we ignore he gave him 50 years to get on board) is probably trumped by far more direct questions, like "well, why did he need to kill off entire species and/or billions of humans during his Great Crusade?" The simple answer to this is that he was working on scales unfathomable to us, with ends and enemies that demanded ruthlessness.



> ... as well as the assassination attempts on Curze, keeping secrets from Horus (seemingly for no good reason), ...


Honestly, this comes down to opinion, and mine is that Curze is simply not (probably unconsciously, rather than consciously) being 100% honest to us when he says his efforts were "sanctioned". Everything we've seen thus far about the Imperium indicates that its ruthlessness is calculated, and toward specific ends.

Curze exceeded its mandates, refused to come back in line, almost killed a Primarch, and then went rogue--before the Heresy ever happened. The Imperium's actions against him might serve as a hint as to what happened to II and XI, I think.



> ... and even the treatment of Magnus and the council of Nikaea to lesser extents.


You can see my thoughts on this earlier in the thread. By the time of Nikaea, I think the Emperor was reeling. Angron, Curze, Lorgar, and now even Magnus--on whom he knew he was going to have to depend on greatly. And on the other side, a number of Primarchs who demonstrate that they are either opposed to their Cyclopean brother or--at least--not interested in coming to his defense.



> ... but I don't think you can really deny that at least some of his actions seem illogical as it stands.


Not so much illogical, I think, as _inhuman_ in their ruthlessness, and thus apparently illogical to our eyes. All the same, however, in no way hypocritical, and in no way obfuscated from those who shared his mission.



> This is where I think a loyalist perspective comes in, to temper the viewpoint that many people have that the Emperor preformed many illogical decisions.


I think it will be rather interesting to see it, but I doubt it will get past the "he's incredibly visionary, possesses the power to bring Humanity to power, as is right, and, in general, knows best" perspective that we've gotten from the various characters (Loyalist or Traitor) in the Traitor Legions thus far. I mean, not Loken, nor M'hotep, Skaarl, Argel Tal, Torrik, Garro, etc., have even attempted (to their credit) to give us some propaganda about how nice a guy he is, or how fair a concept Humanity--under one person--stomping all over the Galaxy is. The truth over what he does the Emperor keeps to himself, and that's because it's too terrible to share. 



> ... but I still think we need some form of in-context perspective.


If for no other reason, then for sheer reading enjoyment! 



> But then the loyalists didn't truly prevail did they? The Heresy was seemingly a victory for the Chaos gods, not the Emperor.


A horrible draw, I think, but one which benefited Chaos more than the Emperor. Did I just contradict myself? :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Prior to the great crusade, to unite humanity and wipe out false gods, the power of the gods what not really here or there. The gods were in a steady state of power, which would most likely be system wide. I think we would have seen the 'softer' side of some of the gods at this time like Nurgle as the saviour of the dying and Slaanesh as the god of merriment and passion.

Then the Emperor comes along with his great crusade. He smashes down on each religious world or those that defy him and causes all of these violent and hateful emotions, which fuel the gods. He also (with the help of end of old night) gets the galaxy in a position where interstellar travel is relatively easy and therefore the followers of the gods can spread their (now hateful) message widely.

Maybe the gods let the great crusade unfold knowing that the Emperor's actions would only assist them.

edit: I am suggesting that pre-great crusade the extreme side of the gods was the exception, but because of the crusade the extreme manifestation is the standard.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well this is the fact that people believe the Cabal to have told the truth. Who said they didnt benefit on the fact that the Emperor died and throwing the Imperium in jeopardy? The Cabal might as well have lied and showed a false prophecy to add the body-count between the humans and Astartes of both loyalist and traitors.


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## Captain Sor Talgron (Sep 10, 2010)

Ahhh too many philosophies on this... we should all agree that the Emperor knew the heresy was coming!

He knew all he had to do was smash Lorgar's toy city and he would go crying off to the Chaos gods and things would get started!

He knew the war would come to his doorstep so he sent little Dorn back to Terra to get things ready as is stated in Horus Rising. 

He knew half his sons would turn against him, as it turns out the half that turned were the ones he didn't like anyway...

Fulgrim was too pretty
Magnus would have outshone his father in the magical department
Horus was too charismatic
Mortarion was just dull
Night Haunter and Angron were uncontrollable...
Lorgar was the weakest out of all of them
Alpharius/Omegon he hardly knew so didnt really give a shit about.

With the loyalists its simple:

Sanguinius, who wouldn't want an angel on their side
Russ, he could have a great binge drinking weekend with
Dorn would have kept the fire warm whilst the Emp partyed with Russ
Guilliman was the Emp's personal accountant, being all organised an all.
The Khan was just cool... pure and simple
Corax, because he was just cool aswell
Ferrus Manus would have been a good drinking buddy with aswell, abit ugly so he wouldn't cock block the Emperor
Vulkan was of course the token black guy


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I believe Chaos won the heresy, I mean the imperium has been tearing itself apart for 10,000 years, feeding the chaos gods. I mean it sais in the beginning of every 40k novel that there is only war and the laughter of gods, so they are obviously enjoying the status quo.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Captain Sor Talgron said:


> Ahhh too many philosophies on this... we should all agree that the Emperor knew the heresy was coming!
> 
> He knew all he had to do was smash Lorgar's toy city and he would go crying off to the Chaos gods and things would get started!
> 
> ...


Could not disagree with you more actually. This 'theory' has been discussed previously on other threads and I beleive the vast majority were dead against the 'Emperor knew the Heresy was coming or planned it' line. 

I really don't think this is the route Black Library are going to take. If nothing else it just makes for a crap twist that makes no sence on any level.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Who said they didnt benefit on the fact that the Emperor died and throwing the Imperium in jeopardy? The Cabal might as well have lied and showed a false prophecy to add the body-count between the humans and Astartes of both loyalist and traitors.


I would agree. You could argue that the Cabal managed to do quite well for themselves with the result of the heresy. A comprehensive victory for either side would have almost certainly spelled the end for the Cabal.

On the one hand a complete victory for chaos may have burned out the gods but as I said earlier I don't believe this. In a galaxy where c'tan can consume stars I very much doubt chaos will destroy itself if given a little extra to eat. I mean have we ever seen a daemon of any kind die of too much power? Then why would the chaos gods? Sure the cabal could hope that it would cause them to turn on each other but whichever god is left is going to be pretty strong by the time we have a victor so it's a bit of a long shot. And what gives the Cabal the idea they could even survive a four-way war? There's sure to be alot of collateral damage. Maybe chaos could starve to death but not before it's completely and utterly destroyed everything in existence. 

On the other hand the emperor is knocking on the webways door and was pursuing a galaxy wide extermination of all things xeno so a victory for the emperor would have also led to the eventual destruction of the Cabal. 

The Cabal probably didn't want either side winning and they got their way. This result has given the Cabal a further 10,000 years of existence and they'll probably get a good deal more as there appears to be no clear advantage to anyone at the moment.


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## RAM21201 (May 8, 2009)

K i found that Logar was just a huge push over. I mean hes a Primarch for crying out loud. And as for ADB being chosen to write TFH, not a good move in my opinion. Dont get me wrong hes a talented writter but why did BL not go with Anthony Reynolds? He is the one who wrote the trio of Word Bearers books after all. Im a huge fan of the Word Bearers and to me at least, i found TFH a bit bland and flat without mr. Reynolds touch.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

RAM21201 said:


> K i found that Logar was just a huge push over. I mean hes a Primarch for crying out loud. And as for ADB being chosen to write TFH, not a good move in my opinion. Dont get me wrong hes a talented writter but why did BL not go with Anthony Reynolds? He is the one who wrote the trio of Word Bearers books after all. Im a huge fan of the Word Bearers and to me at least, i found TFH a bit bland and flat without mr. Reynolds touch.


hmm, that's a fairly obtuse answer... I found TFH to be a delightful read. The subtle depth of each character, and the overall story made it a very interesting read, one that i've read multiple times now, picking new things out of the tone, characterization, thematic elements and literary stylization with each pass. There is so much to be learned in TFH, i would advise you read it again. That's part the reason i haven't reviewed the book, because, even after 3 passes now, i'm still studying it. I liken it to why, even after about 10 years of nonstop study and analysis, i still feel uncomfortable passing any sort of judgment or formulating any serious opinions of the works of J.R.R. Tolkien (other than the fact the whole lot of his work are the best books i've ever read, bar none). I am a Tolkien scholar, however, the depth of the story and setting require yet more observations before i'm comfortable declaring my analysis, and study, complete.

Might i say, well done Mr. Dembski-Bowden. well done.

I'm sorry to say, that your observations of the story are quite shallow if you think Mr. Reynolds could have done this better. Nothing against good Anthony, mind you, as i am fond of his work as well, however, Aaron has outclassed him with this story.

CP


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I feel uncomfortable saying one author out-classed another in this case. At least, not that cut-and-dry.

Honestly, "The First Heretic" is a completely different book than the Word Bearers trilogy. TFH is, first and foremost, a book about belief and discovery--external (Chaos, Daemons, the truth behind the universe) and internal (beliefs, conviction, principles, how far one will go). The Dark [word] series is a traditional 40k story--a war story, a chronicle of Chaos Space Marines (well, their leader anyways) navigating the treacherous currents of their Legion's society while looking to secure power for themselves.

I suppose one could say that TFH trumps Dark [word] by dint of its content and direction alone (it being deeper because of it), but at the same time I wonder about the context behind the books being published.

"Dark Apostle" was written in 2007. "Horus Rising" was written in 2006. Much of what makes the Horus Heresy series so special is that it reveals to us "how things happened", unveils mysteries, and, often enough, deals with rather esoteric issues. I wonder if someone writing in the 40k time-frame had to deal with constraints such as not being able to get really deep with the subject matter at hand on account of the IP owners, publishing house, and/or creative team driving when they would rather see deep, revealing stuff unveiled.

I don't want this to come off as "Anthony Reynolds was screwed, man!" Like I said, I really enjoyed TFH, and thus far everything I've read by ADB has been tops (IMHO). And I will be the first to say that ADB showed you can write a great story with deep characters in the "current" setting ("Helsreach", for instance). At the end of the day, though, I think comparing Dark [word] with TFH is kind of like comparing apples with oranges, and I'm not impugning the quality of either fruit. 

Cheers,
P.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

lol the mighty chaos legions get thrown back into the eye and their champion slain, yet they are victorious? Lets be honest the Imperium is only stagnant because it fights Orks, Tyrannids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, etc. If the Imperium could bring all its forces to bear on the Eye, even with the Emperor immobile on the golden throne, the chaos legions would be crushed.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

AK74Bob said:


> lol the mighty chaos legions get thrown back into the eye and their champion slain, yet they are victorious? Lets be honest the Imperium is only stagnant because it fights Orks, Tyrannids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, etc. If the Imperium could bring all its forces to bear on the Eye, even with the Emperor immobile on the golden throne, the chaos legions would be crushed.


:laugh: now that's the aire of optimism that's missing from today's High Lords of Terra. well played sir! :victory:

CP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> As for subtlety... he had fifty years to get on board, and he didn't. Knowing what his father was up to; what his brothers were doing in their father's name; what was he expecting? I mean, my God, he even comments on the missing Primarchs--he had to have known there were consequences to insubordination. Granted, I don't believe he expected to be _murdered and/or banished from living memory,_ but we're talking about a guy who consigns entire species to extinction and sees entire worlds culled of Humanity (if need be).


But had he been reprimanded in those fifty years? No. The Emperor even allowed worldwide celebrations to occur on Colchis upon his arrival, he was being proclaimed as a deity quite publically for many weeks(?) upon the discovery of Lorgar, yet he did not condemn such behaviour there and then (at least not publically, and not that we are aware of). Monarchia probably came about in a similar way as Nikaea did, because of widespread pressure and disapproval of a Legion's actions. Otherwise why on earth didn't the Emperor just reprimand Lorgar much sooner?

Lorgar took the Emperor's inaction and silence on the matter as sanction for his beliefs and actions. Yes, you could argue that Lorgar was aware of the spread of the Imperial Truth (_"Only the truly divine deny their divinity"_ and all that), what his brothers thought, and of the fate of the lost Primarchs, but ultimately it was only his father's approval that he sought and no one elses (which of course he thought he had).



Phoebus said:


> Thus, I don't see his pilgrimage wasn't forced on by the Emperor. I think it goes back to the influence tools of Chaos (Kor Phaeron, Erebus) exerted on him. His lieutenants wanted him to do certain things for certain reasons and steered him to practices and doctrines that were contrary to everything he had been ordered to do. Powerful forces were working to ensure he had no happy ending.


No, I don't believe it truly was either. But many people have blamed the fall of several Primarchs solely on the Emperor, given such arguments are not always soundly reasoned. But you do have to ask yourself, if the Emperor had hypothetically reprimanded Lorgar immediately upon discovery or at least much sooner, what difference would it have made?



Phoebus said:


> In that light, asking why the Emperor wasn't more subtle with Lorgar (assuming we ignore he gave him 50 years to get on board) is probably trumped by far more direct questions, like "well, why did he need to kill off entire species and/or billions of humans during his Great Crusade?" The simple answer to this is that he was working on scales unfathomable to us, with ends and enemies that demanded ruthlessness.


The first fifty years of Lorgar's participation in the Great Crusade can be viewed very differently though. Firstly as you said, it can be seen as time allowed for Lorgar to reform his views to something more mainstream and aligned with the greater Imperium. But if that is the case, did the Emperor truly expect Lorgar to do so without cause to? Did he truly expect Lorgar to just renounce his beliefs because of _'peer pressure'_ or because he views did not coincide with most of the Imperium? 

Those fifty years could also be viewed as being sanctioned by the Emperor as a result of of his inaction. Or at least indifference on the Emperor's behalf. 

Either way the Emperor would have known that Lorgar wasn't bringing worlds into compliance fast enough to meet his demands, and that he was spreading a religious doctrine throughout said worlds. If the Emperor's true mindset was set on the spread of the Imperial Truth, why on earth did he permit an entire Legion to spread a religious doctrine for fifty years? I simply can't conclude that Lorgar wasn't reprimanded in that time simply because the Emperor was hoping that Lorgar would change his views without having to be _'persuaded'_ to do so.



Phoebus said:


> Honestly, this comes down to opinion, and mine is that Curze is simply not (probably unconsciously, rather than consciously) being 100% honest to us when he says his efforts were "sanctioned". Everything we've seen thus far about the Imperium indicates that its ruthlessness is calculated, and toward specific ends.
> 
> Curze exceeded its mandates, refused to come back in line, almost killed a Primarch, and then went rogue--before the Heresy ever happened. The Imperium's actions against him might serve as a hint as to what happened to II and XI, I think.
> 
> ...


As I said:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Given that if one looks deep enough, logical justifications can be found (you yourself have given enough spread across several threads) but I still think we need some form of in-context perspective.


You could probably muster justifications for most of what some people refer to as _'idiotic'_ or _'illogical'_ decisions made by the Emperor. But we have no true basis with which to judge him or his decisions, at least a proper loyalist perspective could illuminate us to how they viewed the whole proceedings.

My general point was that I think it would be a good idea to have more of a loyalist perspective to reel in (so to speak) this constant view we seem to get of the Emperor's _'strange'_ (shall we say?) behaviour. I know much of it can be justified and rationalised in a round about way, but we are still getting a constant stream of Emperor-hate from the series as it stands. And I don't think that should be the case for the entirety, that's what I meant. 



AK74Bob said:


> lol the mighty chaos legions get thrown back into the eye and their champion slain, yet they are victorious?


Who said that?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But had he been reprimanded in those fifty years? No.


That IS a very good point. Honestly, I think a lot of this comes down to the reality of communications during the Great Crusade. And I'll be the first to admit that this is a rather flimsy excuse given that Lorgar himself presents pretty much the same argument.

At the end of the day, though, I still maintain that Lorgar could not have been under any illusions. The Imperial Truth and the secular nature of the Imperium was mainstream news. We can just as easily take the "Well, I wasn't reprimanded in fifty years" but, reverse it, and question how Lorgar didn't, over the same period of time (and given everything else going on during the Great Crusade), get that his father was legitimately hardcore about stamping out religion--that he was the _exception_ and not the rule, and that he was maybe enjoying a little too much lee-way.

Meaning, yes, Lorgar could justifiably call out the Emperor for "bad management practices", but his argument as to "I didn't know I was doing wrong" is somewhat flat, IMHO.



> The Emperor even allowed worldwide celebrations to occur on Colchis upon his arrival, he was being proclaimed as a deity quite publically for many weeks(?) upon the discovery of Lorgar, yet he did not condemn such behaviour there and then (at least not publically, and not that we are aware of).


Well, yeah, there's going to be a certain "grace period", I would think. You can't show up at your son's base of power and basically pull the rug out from under him. Doing so would have humiliated Lorgar and undermined him at a crucial juncture.



> Monarchia probably came about in a similar way as Nikaea did, because of widespread pressure and disapproval of a Legion's actions. Otherwise why on earth didn't the Emperor just reprimand Lorgar much sooner?


On the one hand, I'm tempted to attribute this to an unstated (at least in terms of the authors telling us) feeling of unease on the part of the Emperor. Call it part and parcel of the same decision to get Rogal Dorn to come to Terra and fortify the Imperial Palace... at a time when Terra could not have been safer.

On the other hand, given the increasing role Kor Phaeron and Erebus have been getting (in regards to ongoing corruption) as the series goes on, I think we might find that Lorgar's principal lieutenants did a good job of managing information--both incoming and outgoing. That is, ensuring that word of their proselytizing via official channels was reduced to (more or less) rumors, while also controlling what their Primarch saw in terms of inquiries regarding their religious activities. Just a hunch!... But a bit more convenient, in my eyes, than the Emperor being guilty either of comically poor management or "bad parenting".



> No, I don't believe it truly was either. But many people have blamed the fall of several Primarchs solely on the Emperor, given such arguments are not always soundly reasoned. But you do have to ask yourself, if the Emperor had hypothetically reprimanded Lorgar immediately upon discovery or at least much sooner, what difference would it have made?


Probably none. When reprimand did eventually come, Lorgar changed loyalties and adopted a rouse. I have no doubt that, unless Chaos shifted to another Primarch, Kor Phaeron and Erebus would have just had to work more gradually in steering their gene-father.



> The first fifty years of Lorgar's participation in the Great Crusade can be viewed very differently though. Firstly as you said, it can be seen as time allowed for Lorgar to reform his views to something more mainstream and aligned with the greater Imperium. But if that is the case, did the Emperor truly expect Lorgar to do so without cause to? Did he truly expect Lorgar to just renounce his beliefs because of _'peer pressure'_ or because he views did not coincide with most of the Imperium?


I think that's exactly what he expected. Absent any manipulation by Kor Phaeron and Erebus, both the Emperor and Lorgar look like fools, to be perfectly honest. One twiddling his fingers, waiting to see when his son will take the hint/message; the other twiddling his fingers, pretending that, just because he hasn't been censured, he's in the clear even when he's flouting rule number one.

Lorgar's predicament strikes me like someone who keeps putting charges to his credit card, exceeding his known balance and doing it anyways on account of the fact that the card keeps getting accepted. A month later, his bill shows up and his complaint was that the credit card company let him use it even to his own detriment. At best, both parties are irresponsible; in no way can the credit card holder claim innocence.



> Those fifty years could also be viewed as being sanctioned by the Emperor as a result of of his inaction. Or at least indifference on the Emperor's behalf.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If we're going to damn the Emperor for being unclear, we also have to damn Lorgar--a superhuman genius--of failing to seek clarification in light of everyone else marching to a different tune.



> Either way the Emperor would have known that Lorgar wasn't bringing worlds into compliance fast enough to meet his demands, and that he was spreading a religious doctrine throughout said worlds.


See above.



> My general point was that I think it would be a good idea to have more of a loyalist perspective to reel in (so to speak) this constant view we seem to get of the Emperor's _'strange'_ (shall we say?) behaviour.


I fear what we would need is someone as highly placed as Malcador, Dorn, or, perhaps (if the novel were to take place earlier in the timeline), Horus for something like that.



> I know much of it can be justified and rationalised in a round about way, but we are still getting a constant stream of Emperor-hate from the series as it stands. And I don't think that should be the case for the entirety, that's what I meant.


I completely agree with that sentiment!

Cheers,
P.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Who said that?


Multiple people in this thread claim that chaos won, but clearly most of their objectives were not achieved.

Lets not forget that 10,000 years of attrition would have dissolved the chaos legions. I doubt Fabius Bile and his 1 applicant surviving out of 1000 can sustain the manpower needed for the continued surivival of the chaos legions.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still maintain that they did win. Again, not the total victory they ideally wanted, but they incapacitated the Emperor, did away with the mighty legions, took the majority of the loyalist primarchs out of the equation, even killed a few, recruited themselves nine traitor legions and their primarchs, fucked mars up and by extension technology and they fractured the Imperium. Pretty good result, losing Horus is nothing, he was just a pawn, a means to an end, yet another puppet. And i don't believe for a second that the Imperium without other threats could destroy the Eye of Terror. Rules do not apply in there, it's the realm of the gods, where they can change the very fabric of (their) reality, you have no idea of what they are capable of in there. Don't get me wrong, i'm a loyalist and pro-imperial to the end. But chaos still won a significant victory, just not total


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

AK74Bob said:


> Multiple people in this thread claim that chaos won, but clearly most of their objectives were not achieved.
> 
> Lets not forget that 10,000 years of attrition would have dissolved the chaos legions. I doubt Fabius Bile and his 1 applicant surviving out of 1000 can sustain the manpower needed for the continued surivival of the chaos legions.


I've already said in this thread but when people refer to chaos as _'winning'_ the Heresy, they generally refer to chaos as an all-encompassing concept bringing the Imperium to the brink of destruction or the chaos gods themselves achieving their objective(s).

Ultimately, Horus and his Legions were irrelavent. They were pawns. Pieces on the board to be used and discarded when their usefulness had come to an end. Horus' entire essence was obliterated and his Legions scattered, but does that mean chaos didn't _'win'_? You can win a game of chess after losing all your pawns after all...


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You can win a game of chess after losing all your pawns after all...


and in this case all the "Kings" are immortal...

CP


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've already said in this thread but when people refer to chaos as _'winning'_ the Heresy, they generally refer to chaos as an all-encompassing concept bringing the Imperium to the brink of destruction or the chaos gods themselves achieving their objective(s).


By that logic I could argue the imperium won. It's objective was to survive and it did, the imperial way of life is still very much in existence. But I won't because as _I've_ already said it was a stalemate. Nobody won.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I still maintain that they did win. Again, not the total victory they ideally wanted, but they incapacitated the Emperor, did away with the mighty legions, took the majority of the loyalist primarchs out of the equation, even killed a few, recruited themselves nine traitor legions and their primarchs, fucked mars up and by extension technology and they fractured the Imperium. Pretty good result, losing Horus is nothing, he was just a pawn, a means to an end, yet another puppet. And i don't believe for a second that the Imperium without other threats could destroy the Eye of Terror. Rules do not apply in there, it's the realm of the gods, where they can change the very fabric of (their) reality, you have no idea of what they are capable of in there. Don't get me wrong, i'm a loyalist and pro-imperial to the end. But chaos still won a significant victory, just not total


The mighty chaos legions can't even knock out Cadia, let alone the imperium. IMO the tyranids and necrons pose a much graver threat than the forces within the eye do. They are effectively contained there. And how did they fracture the Imperium? It is still very unified.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've already said in this thread but when people refer to chaos as _'winning'_ the Heresy, they generally refer to chaos as an all-encompassing concept bringing the Imperium to the brink of destruction or the chaos gods themselves achieving their objective(s).
> 
> Ultimately, Horus and his Legions were irrelavent. They were pawns. Pieces on the board to be used and discarded when their usefulness had come to an end. Horus' entire essence was obliterated and his Legions scattered, but does that mean chaos didn't _'win'_? You can win a game of chess after losing all your pawns after all...


Yeah but the only way the chaos gods achieve anything is through their pawns as they can not just walk around in the material realm kicking ass. They just get to sulk in the warp. Therefore when their pawns get waxed, they lose. 

Imperium>>>>Chaos


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

AK74Bob said:


> Yeah but the only way the chaos gods achieve anything is through their pawns as they can not just walk around in the material realm kicking ass. They just get to sulk in the warp. Therefore when their pawns get waxed, they lose.
> 
> Imperium>>>>Chaos


No they don't because the mortal races (notably the Imperium) effectively supply them with a limitless supply of mortal pawns. They also effectively have a limitless supply of daemonic minions.

_Codex: Chaos Daemons_ implies that the sole (or at least main) objective of that era for the chaos gods was the removal of the Emperor as a threat, they achieved this. 

There really isn't any basis on the other hand to claim the Emperor or Imperium triumphed, beyond their scant survival they are both now mere shadows of what they were Crusade-era, and are both on the path to destruction. Besides that they didn't reduce the influence or power of the chaos gods as a result of the wars of the Horus Heresy, it seems fairly clear that the power and influence of the Four has vastly increased as a result of the Heresy. As I said, losing Horus was inconsequential. And there is a much stronger claim to suggest chaos (as a whole) triumphed in the Heresy rather than the Emperor/Imperium.



AK74Bob said:


> The mighty chaos legions can't even knock out Cadia, let alone the imperium. IMO the tyranids and necrons pose a much graver threat than the forces within the eye do. They are effectively contained there. And how did they fracture the Imperium? It is still very unified.


The Despoiler and his Legions very likely have a very different purpose and objective compared to the chaos gods themselves mind. 

You can't really blame the Chaos Legions militarily for only just gaining a significant foothold in the Cadian Gate, they have been bottlenecked in a region of space where there are scarce resources and where infighting is inevitable. The only stable route out of said region is to go through one of the most heavily fortified areas in the entire galaxy. It may have taken them thousands of years, but Cadia is now in their hands, the Imperial Navy all but blocked off and a solid foothold achieved.

But the main threat chaos poses is not through it's mortal Legions, it's through is own nature. The inherent ability to corrupt and destroy almost anything, anywhere. The Imperium will tear itself apart for this very reason.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ implies that the sole (or at least main) objective of that era for the chaos gods was the removal of the Emperor as a threat, they achieved this.


And yet other sources like the _Collected visions_ state that when the forces of chaos retreated they did so in "utter defeat" and call it a "rout". In addition to this the Dark Angels codex states that when the chaos gods withdrew from Luther they "realised that once again they had been denied" implying that they themselves know they didn't win.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There really isn't any basis on the other hand to claim the Emperor or Imperium triumphed, beyond their scant survival they are both now mere shadows of what they were Crusade-era, and are both on the path to destruction. Besides that they didn't reduce the influence or power of the chaos gods as a result of the wars of the Horus Heresy, it seems fairly clear that the power and influence of the Four has vastly increased as a result of the Heresy. As I said, losing Horus was inconsequential. And there is a much stronger claim to suggest chaos (as a whole) triumphed in the Heresy rather than the Emperor/Imperium.


My earlier arguments cover this. Once again I believe it was a stalemate.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

"Scant survival", the imperium controls the vast majority of the galaxy, with trillions of people and millions of planets. What exactly does Chaos control? As chaos being naturally chaotic/anarchical it creates a realm of constant infighting and a fragmented society; they effectively control very little. Which is why I said earlier that if you lined up the forces of the Imperium vs. those only belonging to Chaos, the Imperium would be heavily favored. Just look at the aftermath of HH, where the various chaos legions quickly began killing each other. They have no notion of unity, whereas regardless of what you say the imperium is still very unified.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

AK74Bob said:


> "Scant survival", the imperium controls the vast majority of the galaxy, with trillions of people and millions of planets. What exactly does Chaos control? As chaos being naturally chaotic/anarchical it creates a realm of constant infighting and a fragmented society; they effectively control very little. Which is why I said earlier that if you lined up the forces of the Imperium vs. those only belonging to Chaos, the Imperium would be heavily favored. Just look at the aftermath of HH, where the various chaos legions quickly began killing each other. They have no notion of unity, whereas regardless of what you say the imperium is still very unified.


Although I would like to, primarily, pick up on the feature of your thoughts on Chaos, I disagree with your opinions on the Imperium. For starters, the Imperium, as a sole, single entity or organization, does not control the Galaxy with the same level of stability it did during the Crusade-era. Furthermore, 'controls' is subjective. Traditional worlds, close to Terra or in proximity to Astartes Chapter home worlds, will be far more loyal towards the Imperium than the often radical worlds of the Eastern Fringe, or those not subjugated by the Inquisition of Administratum.

Secondly, you depict that in a 'fair fight', the forces of the Imperium would be 'heavily favoured' against those aligned to Chaos. Admittedly, the Space Marine Chapters would drastically outnumber the Heresy-era Legions, subsequent fractions and newer renegade war bands, but surely you have not taken into consideration the quantity of ordinary humans, turncoats, mutants, zealots and cultists sworn to Chaos? Admittedly they are not as numerous as those the Imperium may contain - in it's entirety, but here lies yet another advantage for the forces of Chaos.

Chaos may have been 'bottled' within the Eye of Terror, with exceptions -most notably being the Maelstrom of the Red Corsairs- but this lends its hand in a positive way. It is far easier for Chaos, freed from the shackles of law, Inquisitorial indignation and the mass of Naval protocols required, to amass its entire strength into a single, deadly hammer blow. It would be nigh on impossible for the Imperium to muster its entire military strength into a fully united, cohesive and supplied force. 

Yet that is all irrelevant, as this next point shall prove. The Chaos Gods control an infinite number of Daemons. Fickle, nature-defying tempests of Warp energy, given form in human mockery. Their numbers are infinite. They cannot be destroyed only banished to rise anew. Daemons, the true servants of Chaos, are perhaps the most crucial factor in allowing Chaos an overwhelming victory in this hypothesis.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Liege of the Darkness said:


> Yet that is all irrelevant, as this next point shall prove. The Chaos Gods control an infinite number of Daemons. Fickle, nature-defying tempests of Warp energy, given form in human mockery. Their numbers are infinite. They cannot be destroyed only banished to rise anew. Daemons, the true servants of Chaos, are perhaps the most crucial factor in allowing Chaos an overwhelming victory in this hypothesis.


Daemons whose influence on the material universe is limited. The imperium managed against them in the heresy when chaos was united and extremely powerful so, in this hypothetical one on one scenario, the imperium may be able to cope. The imperium since the heresy has become much better at dealing with daemons, they have the ordo malleus, faith in the god-emperor and the (now ridiculously overpowered) grey knights.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Daemons whose influence on the material universe is limited. The imperium managed against them in the heresy when chaos was united and extremely powerful so, in this hypothetical one on one scenario, the imperium may be able to cope. The imperium since the heresy has become much better at dealing with daemons, they have the ordo malleus, faith in the god-emperor and the (now ridiculously overpowered) grey knights.


Although I doubt I could bring any hard evidence to support what I'll try to explain (Unfortunately) I think it's worthy of note to discuss the efficiency of the Ordo Malleus in relation to Galactic-wide Daemonic incursions. For example, based on Titan I believe, with perhaps other outposts, I doubt the Grey Knights could reach far-flung worlds in the grasp of Chaos in time to prevent the atrocities commited. I mean, from the Chaos Daemons Codex I remember in the majority of cases, the Ordo Malleus reaching 'tainted' worlds too late - often when the scant few defenders are knee-deep in blood and their own dead. It just narrates how stretched the Imperium's anti-daemonic 'units' are. So no, I disagree with saying how the Imperium is better at dealing with the immortal servants of Chaos. If anything, their only advancement is the fact a relatively high number of people, in comparisson to the 31st Millenium, know about Chaos at all. 

Faith in the God-Emperor has given Chaos a ***** in humanities ignorance from which they can spread corruption, and realistically, one Chapter of Astartes cannot defend all of the Imperium's worlds. 

Finally, although it is true Daemons cannot exist in the material realm for a substantial time, it is the reverse for material beings existing within the Warp. It is an almost balance that exists to restore a 'Primordial Order' to the Grand Scheme of Things.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Men will always do great evil to each other, or be jealous, the flaw of which chaos pounces upon, oh so often, is that flaw of being human.

Chaos gods dont want to win any think, they just want eternal war of which to fed upon.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

World Eater XII said:


> Men will always do great evil to each other, or be jealous, the flaw of which chaos pounces upon, oh so often, is that flaw of being human.
> 
> Chaos gods dont want to win any think, they just want eternal war of which to fed upon.


Exactly. Human emotion, in its myriad complexity, forms the bases of the Chaos God's source of power and ability to dispense this seemingly infinite resource to both mortal and immortal servants alike. 

Theoretically, the only way to free humanity from the predations of the Chaos God's is either cloaking itself within ignorance, or removing the ability to process emotion. The former is what the Emperor strove to achieve, believing through science and technology forming the basis of logic, reason and understanding, relics of the Age of Strife such as Gods, Daemons and Religion, could not find root within humanities destiny. 

As for the latter, it's something I've thought of for a while. Although it renders many of human's base instincts obselete, the cybernetic erradication of the ability to create and process emotion within the human brain would deny an entranceway for the seductions of Chaos.

As for the Chaos God's, their intellect, power and dominion is so colossal, so undisputed and ever-changing, that their actions are almost child-like. They squabble like siblings, not caring for losses within the mortal plane, only that they gain the advantage upon a rival God within the Great Game - Rarely uniting to destroy 'threats' such as the Emperor of Mankind.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Chaos was at its peak during the HH, with millions of traitor troops/astartes, plus their "limitless" supply of daemons. Yet these "infinite forces" were routed and thrown back into the eye during the HH and now have trouble conquering Cadia; 1 planet among millions, albeit one heavily fortified planet, with lots of good soldiers.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

LOL we have hijacked this thread >_>
Someone should start a poll thread that asks the question: "were the forces of chaos or the forces of the imperium victorious at the end of the HH?"


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

AK74Bob said:


> Chaos was at its peak during the HH, with millions of traitor troops/astartes, plus their "limitless" supply of daemons. Yet these "infinite forces" were routed and thrown back into the eye during the HH and now have trouble conquering Cadia; 1 planet among millions, albeit one heavily fortified planet, with lots of good soldiers.


How was Chaos at its 'Peak' during the Horus Heresy? How was Chaos anything more than a whisper of blasphemy that existed only upon a number of worlds who had devoted themselves to the Primordial Truth and thrown off any notion of Terra and Earth? Surely it is a more logical conclusion to say that Chaos was at it's 'strongest' during the harvesting of countless billions of Eldar souls during the birthing throes of Slaanesh, or the horros of Old Night in which millions of human worlds gave themselves to daemons, or before Tzeentch's brothers overthrew his rule and shattered his staff? 

_Chaos _was never thrown back. Cults devoted to the worship of the merest aspect of a God have existed in their millions since Horus' defeat. Daemonic incursions have swept aside entire worlds and systems, overwhelming Planetry Defence Forces far quicker than outer-system aid can arrive. Heresy-era Astartes still hunger for the Imperium's destruction, annihalating key worlds in a guerrilla-like struggle. Chaos was merely halted. But Chaos is like the tide, like time. It is inexorable, it is inevitable. The Chaos God's do not work in conventions, rules of war, morality or justice. They just view everything as a game, and anything which disrupts their game - be it the Eldar, the Emperor or a rival God, earns their wrath.

I think you view Chaos as merely the Traitor Legions, encompassing renegade human factions and the Dark Mechanicus. And if we view Chaos as just this, then it is indeed overwhelmed by the military, naval and logistical might of the Imperium. Chaos is the underworld of reality, which has limited effect upon the material relm.

Chaos requires servants to perform it's will within the mortal plane - Cultists, the Traitor Legions and so forth, but surely the Imperium requires servants to manifest their own will within the Warp? Astropaths, Psykers, Navigators?


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

AK74Bob said:


> LOL we have hijacked this thread >_>
> Someone should start a poll thread that asks the question: "were the forces of chaos or the forces of the imperium victorious at the end of the HH?"




I'd be happy to continue the debate elsewhere.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Liege of the Darkness said:


> Although I doubt I could bring any hard evidence to support what I'll try to explain (Unfortunately) I think it's worthy of note to discuss the efficiency of the Ordo Malleus in relation to Galactic-wide Daemonic incursions.


Well here for a start we come back to chaos’s influence on the material realm. If our hypothetical war takes place in the warp then the imperials don’t stand a chance, I don’t contest that. If our scenario is in real space where the amount of daemons that can be brought to bear is limited somewhat then I do think the imperium can prevail. As someone earlier put it chaos’s non daemon pawns are not limitless. 

Incidentally here I don’t think chaos as a concept can be beaten in the long run but it probably can be contained and brought to manageable levels. In the above scenario in real space a victory for the imperials over the material forces of chaos would leave chaos with no option but to turn new pawns. Now since the heresy and the subsequent de-centralization of the imperium no one man can wield the power of a legion. Put simply the chaos gods no longer have access to such an advanced, readily available fighting force that can rival the imperium in size and capability. This leaves the imperium with the task of putting down localized sporadic uprisings which they’ve proven themselves adept at doing. So hypothetically speaking if the imperium did not have to worry about all the countless other threats within and without it could bring chaos to heel.




Liege of the Darkness said:


> For example, based on Titan I believe, with perhaps other outposts, I doubt the Grey Knights could reach far-flung worlds in the grasp of Chaos in time to prevent the atrocities commited. I mean, from the Chaos Daemons Codex I remember in the majority of cases, the Ordo Malleus reaching 'tainted' worlds too late - often when the scant few defenders are knee-deep in blood and their own dead. It just narrates how stretched the Imperium's anti-daemonic 'units' are.


They may be based on Titan but they are outfitted with the best navigators and fastest ships and as you say outposts elsewhere mean they are fairly well suited to the task if a little stretched. Also the ordo hereticus with their sisters of battle root out and combat heresy (including forms of chaos) too.



Liege of the Darkness said:


> So no, I disagree with saying how the Imperium is better at dealing with the immortal servants of Chaos. If anything, their only advancement is the fact a relatively high number of people, in comparisson to the 31st Millenium, know about Chaos at all.


Psycannon’s, force weapons, widespread use of librarians, ten thousand years of study and experience are all things which were not available in the 31st millennium I’m probably missing a few others too. In addition the guard would be more suited to fighting chaos as they do so in numerous crusades. They have sanctioned psykers to nullify some of the enemy’s advantage, priests to purify the troop’s souls and keep them resilient and commissars to shoot anyone who shows signs of taint, not perfect but probably better than what they had during the heresy.

I would also point out that if the full industrial might of the imperium were to be brought to bear against one enemy they would more than likely win a war of attrition. Ak74 Bob also made some good points about chaos’ shortcomings that I’m not going to repeat.



Liege of the Darkness said:


> Faith in the God-Emperor has given Chaos a ***** in humanities ignorance from which they can spread corruption, and realistically, one Chapter of Astartes cannot defend all of the Imperium's worlds.


Faith in the god emperor was more of a joke on my part. But seriously it’s mentioned in the ordo malleus codex a hell of a lot in the context of “their strongest weapon is their faith in the immortal god emperor” so their might be something in it… The emergence of the saints, another weapon not available during the heresy, might confirm this. Additionally in the HH book _Galaxy in Flames_ there is an incident where Keeler defeats a daemon with faith alone (or so she claims). There have been other cases where religious icons and prayers do well against daemons but I'm not in a state to go looking through books right now. The grey knights are larger than your average chapter too but once again I don’t think even the full power of chaos brought to bear could manage to threaten all of the imperiums worlds at once, it didn't during the heresy anyway. 



Liege of the Darkness said:


> Finally, although it is true Daemons cannot exist in the material realm for a substantial time, it is the reverse for material beings existing within the Warp. It is an almost balance that exists to restore a 'Primordial Order' to the Grand Scheme of Things.


Eloquently put and not disputed, if anything it reminds me of how much I hate hypothetical scenarios.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

AK74Bob said:


> LOL we have hijacked this thread >_>
> Someone should start a poll thread that asks the question: "were the forces of chaos or the forces of the imperium victorious at the end of the HH?"





Liege of the Darkness said:


> I'd be happy to continue the debate elsewhere.


Here's fine I guess untill we're moved on. We've been straying for a while and no one's complained.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Liege of the Darkness said:


> Chaos requires servants to perform it's will within the mortal plane - Cultists, the Traitor Legions and so forth, but surely the Imperium requires servants to manifest their own will within the Warp? Astropaths, Psykers, Navigators?


Almost missed this but this one effects my arguments so I'll comment on it. I assume your referring to the havoc the chaos gods can reap for the imperials transport routes and lines of communication. The imperium will deal with it slowly and with great difficulty but ultimately successfully just like the heresy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> And yet other sources like the _Collected visions_ state that when the forces of chaos retreated they did so in "utter defeat" and call it a "rout".


The _'forces'_ of chaos, not the chaos gods. I admitted that Horus and his Legions were routed from Terra after the Warmaster's death. But like I said, they were never anything more than mere pawns.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> In addition to this the Dark Angels codex states that when the chaos gods withdrew from Luther they "realised that once again they had been denied" implying that they themselves know they didn't win.


Indeed. But I said that the codex implies that their main objective was the removal of the threat posed by the Emperor. I'm not necessarily saying that was their _only_ objective.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> My earlier arguments cover this. Once again I believe it was a stalemate.


I know, ultimately therefore were going to probably have to agree to disagree. 



AK74Bob said:


> "Scant survival", the imperium controls the vast majority of the galaxy, with trillions of people and millions of planets.


Firstly the Imperium does not control the vast majority of the galaxy, no way near. The vast majority of the galaxy is still unexplored.



AK74Bob said:


> What exactly does Chaos control?


The warp. 



AK74Bob said:


> As chaos being naturally chaotic/anarchical it creates a realm of constant infighting and a fragmented society; they effectively control very little. Which is why I said earlier that if you lined up the forces of the Imperium vs. those only belonging to Chaos, the Imperium would be heavily favored. Just look at the aftermath of HH, where the various chaos legions quickly began killing each other. They have no notion of unity, whereas regardless of what you say the imperium is still very unified.


Since when has this been a competition of how much territory one controls? That doesn't really mean anything at all in comparison to the nature of chaos. 



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Put simply the chaos gods no longer have access to such an advanced, readily available fighting force that can rival the imperium in size and capability. This leaves the imperium with the task of putting down localized sporadic uprisings which they’ve proven themselves adept at doing. So hypothetically speaking if the imperium did not have to worry about all the countless other threats within and without it could bring chaos to heel.





AK74Bob said:


> Chaos was at its peak during the HH, with millions of traitor troops/astartes, plus their "limitless" supply of daemons. Yet these "infinite forces" were routed and thrown back into the eye during the HH and now have trouble conquering Cadia; 1 planet among millions, albeit one heavily fortified planet, with lots of good soldiers.


Actually it would probably be more accurate to claim that chaos is starting to hit a _peak_ in regards to humanity as the timeline stands:

_
"Only a learned few amongst Mankind know the true threat of Chaos, and have learned from the doom of others just what can happen to a race that succumbs to the lure of Chaos. Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar-a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void.

There are some Eldar, those not too prepossessed with their own woes and struggles for survival, who see in Mankind the same peril that destroyed their race. For these individuals, Mankind is a reminder of what happened long ago. Humanity is treading the same path towards the darkness of Chaos, a crude mirror of the Eldar's own disgrace. All the signs are there for those with the wit and experience to see them. *The growth of mutation, the ever-increasing numbers of psykers and the swelling legions of those sworn to the Dark Gods all point towards the impending cataclysm.* Should the weaknesses of Mankind prove too great, one only needs to look at the Fall of the Eldar to see the consequences of failure.

The teeming thousands of trillions of humans spread across the galaxy provide an unmatched source of psychic energy to feed the Chaos Gods. *As Humanity evolves towards its psychic potential, the threat of Chaos grows greater with every passing generation.* There is but one reason why Mankind has not already been plunged into a nightmare age of slavery to the Dark Gods of Chaos -the Emperor...

...Such a fate is best not contemplated, for *without the Emperor's protection, Mankind would be scattered and alone in the darkness, utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos. Humanity's damnation would bring about the victory of the Dark Gods and the Realm of Chaos would engulf the galaxy.*"
_

The threat of chaos is growing steadily every generation. With the above quote stating that more and more psykers are manifesting amongst humanity and that more and more people are swearing allegience to chaos. The Emperor is literally the only reason Mankind hasn't already fallen, and as we know his tenuous hold on his physical body is becoming stretched and near breaking point. 

I don't see it as a stalemate at all, merely a matter of time. You can only delay the inevitable afterall.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> ...it could bring chaos to heel.


It really couldn't. Chaos is a concept, it's not something you can swing a sword at. Man cannot fight his own desires, emotions and nature.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

In the most basic outlook of things. Humanity could never again be what it was during the Great Crusade. In truth, Chaos could really just spring forth into the Materium and make the Galaxy a big fuckfest. But Chaos is more concerned about other things.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Well here for a start we come back to chaos’s influence on the material realm. If our hypothetical war takes place in the warp then the imperials don’t stand a chance, I don’t contest that. If our scenario is in real space where the amount of daemons that can be brought to bear is limited somewhat then I do think the imperium can prevail. As someone earlier put it chaos’s non daemon pawns are not limitless.


I suppose that this hypothesis is similar to the Siege of Terra, in ways. The united might of Chaos coalesced into a single, deadly hammer blow: Relatively intact and united Astartes Legions (In comparison to the splinted, warbands of the Eye) millions, if not billions of turncoat humans, as well as Dark Mechanicus freshly spawned from the forges of Mars, all banded together by the Warmaster and his sibling Primarchs. Yet even at this period, arguably the time in which Chaos' influence over the Imperium was at its greatest, daemonic forces spilling from the shattered Imperial Webway were contained. The Emperor was forced to flood his dungeons with Custodians and Sisters of Silence in order to contain this sub-terranial, sub-dimensional attack. And if Terra is to act as a microcosm for the Galaxy on a whole, then I suppose by this example, the greatest opposition Chaos faces is its own nature - Being anathema to reality, once its daemonic children spill into the material world, nature's laws inflict their own reality upon them. No matter the carnage, slaughter, decadence, plague or schism that has occured. Partially owning to this, then I can agree that in a pitched, conventional battle, the forces of the Imperium would be victorious. Through sheer logistical numbers if anything.




NiceGuyEddy said:


> They may be based on Titan but they are outfitted with the best navigators and fastest ships and as you say outposts elsewhere mean they are fairly well suited to the task if a little stretched. Also the ordo hereticus with their sisters of battle root out and combat heresy (including forms of chaos) too.


I can remember from _Grey Knights_ just how inefficient the Sisters of Battle were against daemonic opposition. Sized-down Bolters, less effective Power Armour, a more punitive anatomy as well as all the frailties of a mortal mind dosen't render the Adeptus Sororitas as a means of opposition against daemonic incursion. Rooting out Heresy within a sprawl of urban hab may be one thing, but clashing against the true servants of the Dark Gods, whose very presense warps reality would be far more than all but the most doctrinated or cybernetically enhanced Sister could take. I suppose you could argue that by rooting out and destroying the first tendrils of corruption, it prevents a gateway for daemons to enter the mortal plane via. And from that I guess the Adeptus Sororitas do indeed combat Chaos. But still, there are far more planets and even systems than there are Astartes, especially those of the Grey Knights, as well as other anti-Heresy, anti-daemonic forces. This is why cults are usually discovered only after their rise to prominence, and the entire world is in need of purifying. 



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Psycannon’s, force weapons, widespread use of librarians, ten thousand years of study and experience are all things which were not available in the 31st millennium I’m probably missing a few others too. In addition the guard would be more suited to fighting chaos as they do so in numerous crusades. They have sanctioned psykers to nullify some of the enemy’s advantage, priests to purify the troop’s souls and keep them resilient and commissars to shoot anyone who shows signs of taint, not perfect but probably better than what they had during the heresy.


Again, although these measures, especially within the Imperial Guard, seem to be effective upon Cultists or Traitor Regiments who have perhaps summoned some form of proto-daemonic entity, or a weaker daemon, I doubt they would have the same level of influence upon a full daemonic invasion. As for the Grey Knight's, even despite being the Emperor's Finest, equipped with a vast array of weaponry, ships and power, they are but a single Chapter. The Grey Knights were only effective at Armageddon against Angron's hordes as Angron had dabbled too much in errecting bloody edifices to Khorne celebrating his victory. And need I remind you of Skulltaker's tally within that same conflict? 




NiceGuyEddy said:


> Faith in the god emperor was more of a joke on my part. But seriously it’s mentioned in the ordo malleus codex a hell of a lot in the context of “their strongest weapon is their faith in the immortal god emperor” so their might be something in it… The emergence of the saints, another weapon not available during the heresy, might confirm this. Additionally in the HH book _Galaxy in Flames_ there is an incident where Keeler defeats a daemon with faith alone (or so she claims). There have been other cases where religious icons and prayers do well against daemons but I'm not in a state to go looking through books right now. The grey knights are larger than your average chapter too but once again I don’t think even the full power of chaos brought to bear could manage to threaten all of the imperiums worlds at once, it didn't during the heresy anyway.


Faith in the God-Emperor is a double-edged blade. On the one hand it serves a purpose similar to ignorance, shielding the individual from the dark truth of Chaos; but on the contrary it gives Chaos a foothold within a mortal mind to spread its corruption. So the individual's sense of justice, morality and so forth would need to be taken into consideration, before we could gauge whether their faith shielded or offered them up to Chaos

I guess to summarise, from both our arguments, we can conclude that Chaos' control over the mortal plane is limited. Mainly due to its own nature and it's inability to sustain itself for long periods of time. Thus this leads to Chaos needing to corrupt souls and shape them into pawns. Either to further a single God's influence within the Great Game, remove a threat that is beyond the veil of the Warp or simply for the childish whims of that patron. Traitor Imperial Guard Regiments, turncoat PDF forces, regular citizens-cum-cultists, the Traitor Legions and the Dark Mechanicum. Although strong in numbers and zealotic faith in their patron, they are yet sand against the tide of the Imperium, and although they cannot be defeated, I guess contained (As said) would be a better verb.

However, the Imperium, outside of our hypothesis, does indeed have external threats. The Tyranid Hive fleets destroy swathes of the Eastern Fringe, the Ork menace continues to plague systems and Necron activity increases every millenia. Soon, whether it be the rise of the Void Dragon upon Mars, or Hive Fleet Leviathan striking at Terra, this shall give Abaddon the chance to break from the Cadian Gate, allowing Chaos a pseudo-victory in terms of terretorial expansion.

I believe this summarises the question at hand perfectly: *It really couldn't. Chaos is a concept, it's not something you can swing a sword at. Man cannot fight his own desires, emotions and nature.*.

You all view Chaos as its pawns. Not as the concept that it is. Pawns can be slain, but a concept can never be destroyed, merely ignored or purged from the minds of those who know it.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The _'forces'_ of chaos, not the chaos gods. I admitted that Horus and his Legions were routed from Terra after the Warmaster's death. But like I said, they were never anything more than mere pawns.
> 
> Indeed. But I said that the codex implies that their main objective was the removal of the threat posed by the Emperor. I'm not necessarily saying that was their _only_ objective.
> 
> I know, ultimately therefore were going to probably have to agree to disagree.


Different conclusions from different sources, yeah I guess we are then.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> NiceGuyEddy said:
> 
> 
> > Put simply the chaos gods no longer have access to such an advanced, readily available fighting force that can rival the imperium in size and capability. This leaves the imperium with the task of putting down localized sporadic uprisings which they’ve proven themselves adept at doing. So hypothetically speaking if the imperium did not have to worry about all the countless other threats within and without it could bring chaos to heel.
> ...


I wasn’t really trying to imply that the heresy was the chaos gods peak in strength here, access to pawns was what I was getting at. Read it again maybe with the rest of the paragraph that explains the hypothetical setting and possible events. Although it might be possible that they were more powerful or around the same then given that humanity was engaged in the crusade which would also have fuelled the gods not to mention the heresy fuelling them I’m only speculating here though and your quote does cast doubt on it. They certainly seemed very powerful then both in terms of their ability to move and convert pawns and manifest in the real world.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _
> "Only a learned few amongst Mankind know the true threat of Chaos, and have learned from the doom of others just what can happen to a race that succumbs to the lure of Chaos. Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar-a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void.
> 
> There are some Eldar, those not too prepossessed with their own woes and struggles for survival, who see in Mankind the same peril that destroyed their race. For these individuals, Mankind is a reminder of what happened long ago. Humanity is treading the same path towards the darkness of Chaos, a crude mirror of the Eldar's own disgrace. All the signs are there for those with the wit and experience to see them. *The growth of mutation, the ever-increasing numbers of psykers and the swelling legions of those sworn to the Dark Gods all point towards the impending cataclysm.* Should the weaknesses of Mankind prove too great, one only needs to look at the Fall of the Eldar to see the consequences of failure.
> ...


I figured it was only a matter of time before you showed up again with a quote like this :laugh:. I can't argue it but I knew that from the start so I’ve been careful to never imply that the imperials could “win” outright just that if it played out in a certain way they might be able to co-exist with chaos.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't see it as a stalemate at all, merely a matter of time. You can only delay the inevitable afterall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ouch that’s really taken out of context and I did say “could”. I also acknowledged the whole concept of chaos earlier. I wasn’t implying they would get it spayed and teach it tricks just that they, in that hypothetical scenario you understand, may reach a point whereby a daemonic incursion/uprising could be contained, managed and dealt with. Incidentally an arrangement that could probably be mutually acceptable (well let's call it a compromise) to both the imperium and chaos gods.





Liege of the Darkness said:


> I suppose that this hypothesis is similar to the Siege of Terra, in ways. The united might of Chaos coalesced into a single, deadly hammer blow: Relatively intact and united Astartes Legions (In comparison to the splinted, warbands of the Eye) millions, if not billions of turncoat humans, as well as Dark Mechanicus freshly spawned from the forges of Mars, all banded together by the Warmaster and his sibling Primarchs. Yet even at this period, arguably the time in which Chaos' influence over the Imperium was at its greatest, daemonic forces spilling from the shattered Imperial Webway were contained. The Emperor was forced to flood his dungeons with Custodians and Sisters of Silence in order to contain this sub-terranial, sub-dimensional attack. And if Terra is to act as a microcosm for the Galaxy on a whole, then I suppose by this example, the greatest opposition Chaos faces is its own nature - Being anathema to reality, once its daemonic children spill into the material world, nature's laws inflict their own reality upon them. No matter the carnage, slaughter, decadence, plague or schism that has occured. Partially owning to this, then I can agree that in a pitched, conventional battle, the forces of the Imperium would be victorious. Through sheer logistical numbers if anything.


I wouldn’t have said so. The loyalists were outgunned at the siege of terra and only scraped a victory. But since you’ve agreed with me I’ll let up.




Liege of the Darkness said:


> I can remember from _Grey Knights_ just how inefficient the Sisters of Battle were against daemonic opposition. Sized-down Bolters, less effective Power Armour, a more punitive anatomy as well as all the frailties of a mortal mind dosen't render the Adeptus Sororitas as a means of opposition against daemonic incursion. Rooting out Heresy within a sprawl of urban hab may be one thing, but clashing against the true servants of the Dark Gods, whose very presense warps reality would be far more than all but the most doctrinated or cybernetically enhanced Sister could take. I suppose you could argue that by rooting out and destroying the first tendrils of corruption, it prevents a gateway for daemons to enter the mortal plane via. And from that I guess the Adeptus Sororitas do indeed combat Chaos. But still, there are far more planets and even systems than there are Astartes, especially those of the Grey Knights, as well as other anti-Heresy, anti-daemonic forces. This is why cults are usually discovered only after their rise to prominence, and the entire world is in need of purifying.


Ah but I didn’t say the sisters would fight chaos daemons directly did I? But they can and do prevent such large scale incursions from occurring by uprooting and burning out the seeds of the chaos “concept” as we seem to now be calling it, they are the first line of defence. I brought up the sisters to build on my point that the imperium is better able to deal with the threat of chaos in the 41st millennium. Although I think you’re being a bit harsh on the sisters Grey Knights is a grey knight book needless to say and so is never going to be too flattering to anyone other than grey knights. The Witchhunters codex and Faith and Fire gives them a much fairer description.

And again I will say that I don’t think chaos has the power to aid cults with daemons and sorcery across the whole imperium. And unassisted cults can be dealt with by pdf forces quite well. As you’ve pointed out yourself I think the manpower of the imperium will shine through in our well battered scenario.




Liege of the Darkness said:


> Again, although these measures, especially within the Imperial Guard, seem to be effective upon Cultists or Traitor Regiments who have perhaps summoned some form of proto-daemonic entity, or a weaker daemon, I doubt they would have the same level of influence upon a full daemonic invasion. As for the Grey Knight's, even despite being the Emperor's Finest, equipped with a vast array of weaponry, ships and power, they are but a single Chapter. The Grey Knights were only effective at Armageddon against Angron's hordes as Angron had dabbled too much in errecting bloody edifices to Khorne celebrating his victory. And need I remind you of Skulltaker's tally within that same conflict?


They will and have been effective at daemonic incursions but you’re missing my point here. I said these advances make them better equipped than they were in the 31st millennium and they do. 

Are you implying that the grey knight’s only victory was on Armageddon? I thought not. Grey Knights have been effective against insurmountable odds for centuries. They will continue to do so. They don’t rely on numbers, but as I’ve said they are larger than a chapter I believe. They are able to do what they do because they are, bar maybe the custodes, the best fighting force out there and are tailor made, possibly at a genetic level if you believe their geneseed rumours, to fight chaos.





Liege of the Darkness said:


> Faith in the God-Emperor is a double-edged blade. On the one hand it serves a purpose similar to ignorance, shielding the individual from the dark truth of Chaos; but on the contrary it gives Chaos a foothold within a mortal mind to spread its corruption. So the individual's sense of justice, morality and so forth would need to be taken into consideration, before we could gauge whether their faith shielded or offered them up to Chaos





Liege of the Darkness said:


> I guess to summarise, from both our arguments, we can conclude that Chaos' control over the mortal plane is limited. Mainly due to its own nature and it's inability to sustain itself for long periods of time. Thus this leads to Chaos needing to corrupt souls and shape them into pawns. Either to further a single God's influence within the Great Game, remove a threat that is beyond the veil of the Warp or simply for the childish whims of that patron. Traitor Imperial Guard Regiments, turncoat PDF forces, regular citizens-cum-cultists, the Traitor Legions and the Dark Mechanicum. Although strong in numbers and zealotic faith in their patron, they are yet sand against the tide of the Imperium, and although they cannot be defeated, I guess contained (As said) would be a better verb.


I thought so anyway :victory:.



Liege of the Darkness said:


> However, the Imperium, outside of our hypothesis, does indeed have external threats. The Tyranid Hive fleets destroy swathes of the Eastern Fringe, the Ork menace continues to plague systems and Necron activity increases every millenia. Soon, whether it be the rise of the Void Dragon upon Mars, or Hive Fleet Leviathan striking at Terra, this shall give Abaddon the chance to break from the Cadian Gate, allowing Chaos a pseudo-victory in terms of terretorial expansion.


Quite probably but I don't, and won’t, contest that.



Liege of the Darkness said:


> I believe this summarises the question at hand perfectly: *It really couldn't. Chaos is a concept, it's not something you can swing a sword at. Man cannot fight his own desires, emotions and nature.*.
> 
> You all view Chaos as its pawns. Not as the concept that it is. Pawns can be slain, but a concept can never be destroyed, merely ignored or purged from the minds of those who know it.


No I don’t. Yes I do. Yes they can, I leave philosophy to philosophers, and I suggest periodic purging but my hypothesis does come with its limitations.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I know I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but I'd like to comment on viewing Chaos as an almost philosphical concept versus viewing Chaos as a military force. While there is certainly something to be said for the idea that Chaos is, at its core, nothing more or less then a reflection of the spiritual state of the inhabitants of the 40k universe, I still think that we have to remember that there was a time when the Chaos gods didn't exist. They were brought into being, like all other daemons, due to the minds and souls of mortals of all races. Yes, you can't necessarily shoot lust in the face with a lasgun; but when we boil it down, daemons and the like are MANIFESTATIONS of emotions, even in their home plane of the Warp. Manifestations that you can destroy with blunt force trauma, or by stabbing repeatedly, or setting on fire. Not to sound crass, but if you were to get a big enough bolter with a super-special awesome boltgun round, you could kill a Chaos god, the most powerful manifestation of their kind.

That being said, unless you can somehow convince several trillion Humans to stop being a bunch of oversexed angry backstabbing procrastinators forever, what you've basically got is a limitless army of 'manifestations,' something that really can't be overcome in a military sense. That's something I've always found interesting about the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult. For a religion, it really seems to stress physical service to the Emperor as opposed to a sort of personal piety, while practically encouraging the sort of spiritual skullduggery that gives strength to Humanity's greatest threat.

Just my two cents.


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> I know I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but I'd like to comment on viewing Chaos as an almost philosphical concept versus viewing Chaos as a military force. While there is certainly something to be said for the idea that Chaos is, at its core, nothing more or less then a reflection of the spiritual state of the inhabitants of the 40k universe, I still think that we have to remember that there was a time when the Chaos gods didn't exist. They were brought into being, like all other daemons, due to the minds and souls of mortals of all races. Yes, you can't necessarily shoot lust in the face with a lasgun; but when we boil it down, daemons and the like are MANIFESTATIONS of emotions, even in their home plane of the Warp. Manifestations that you can destroy with blunt force trauma, or by stabbing repeatedly, or setting on fire. Not to sound crass, but if you were to get a big enough bolter with a super-special awesome boltgun round, you could kill a Chaos god, the most powerful manifestation of their kind.
> 
> That being said, unless you can somehow convince several trillion Humans to stop being a bunch of oversexed angry backstabbing procrastinators forever, what you've basically got is a limitless army of 'manifestations,' something that really can't be overcome in a military sense. That's something I've always found interesting about the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult. For a religion, it really seems to stress physical service to the Emperor as opposed to a sort of personal piety, while practically encouraging the sort of spiritual skullduggery that gives strength to Humanity's greatest threat.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Good post.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> I know I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but I'd like to comment on viewing Chaos as an almost philosphical concept versus viewing Chaos as a military force. While there is certainly something to be said for the idea that Chaos is, at its core, nothing more or less then a reflection of the spiritual state of the inhabitants of the 40k universe, I still think that we have to remember that there was a time when the Chaos gods didn't exist. They were brought into being, like all other daemons, due to the minds and souls of mortals of all races. Yes, you can't necessarily shoot lust in the face with a lasgun; but when we boil it down, daemons and the like are MANIFESTATIONS of emotions, even in their home plane of the Warp. Manifestations that you can destroy with blunt force trauma, or by stabbing repeatedly, or setting on fire. Not to sound crass, but if you were to get a big enough bolter with a super-special awesome boltgun round, you could kill a Chaos god, the most powerful manifestation of their kind.
> 
> That being said, unless you can somehow convince several trillion Humans to stop being a bunch of oversexed angry backstabbing procrastinators forever, what you've basically got is a limitless army of 'manifestations,' something that really can't be overcome in a military sense. That's something I've always found interesting about the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult. For a religion, it really seems to stress physical service to the Emperor as opposed to a sort of personal piety, while practically encouraging the sort of spiritual skullduggery that gives strength to Humanity's greatest threat.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I don't think the gods are actual individuals that can manifest as beings in the warp or physical realm. To this extent that are concepts. The closest we know to what a chaos god looks like is it's greater daemons. The way I say it the warp is like a clay that moulds these 'god realms' as a response to human emotion and the daemons become alligned to these realms.

I also see that power of the chaos gods as something that grows due to a simple cycle. Let's take Khorne as an example. People gets angry and kill, the warp shapes to these emotions, eventually daemons are shaped or alligned to the concept of anger and killing, these daemons break into the physical world establishing the realityof these gods, the people then believe in them.

The reason these gods can't be 'killed' is because they are just concepts and at the less extreme end they form from basic human emotions.

On the point of the Imperial Cult. Well there are a couple of things. There is the age old 'control the people with religion'. This is probably the pain reason why religion is allowed to flourish. Secondly, I suspect that by the end of the Horus Heresy it was too well spread to simply be snuffed out. And if you subscribe to the view that human emotions shape the warp the belief in the God Emperor shapes a realm of the warp to the concept of the Emperor (whatever that may be) and is possibly what gives the Living Saints their powers.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

increaso said:


> I don't think the gods are actual individuals that can manifest as beings in the warp or physical realm. To this extent that are concepts. The closest we know to what a chaos god looks like is it's greater daemons. The way I say it the warp is like a clay that moulds these 'god realms' as a response to human emotion and the daemons become alligned to these realms.


I wish I had my Chaos Daemons Codex on me right now, but it's all the way over on the coffee table, and that's a ten foot journey I don't feel like making. From what I remember though, even though the god's 'true form' is something intangible and indestructible, their manifestation is (like you said) somewhat similar to their Greater Daemons; or rather, the other way around. I've always viewed it like a C'tan with its necrodermis; you have this invincible godthing floating around and invincible. Then it gets stuffed into this shell, this manifestation, which enables it to interact with the universe while at the same time creating inherent weaknesses and limitations. Obviously the manifestation of one of the four gods would be ridiculous and completely impossible to destroy with anything that exists in the 40k universe, short of the other gods ganging up on and destroying them.

Which is another reason why I think that the gods can die. Look at the Eldar mythology, all but one (two, kinda?) of their deities have been killed off by Slaanesh. These gods all represented parts of the Eldar psyche, and yet they were still consumed. Why would the Chaos gods be any different?




increaso said:


> And if you subscribe to the view that human emotions shape the warp the belief in the God Emperor shapes a realm of the warp to the concept of the Emperor (whatever that may be) and is possibly what gives the Living Saints their powers.


That would make the most sense...a sort of 'Emperor's Bosom' area of Warp-space, small in comparison to that of the Chaos God's domain, yet powerful enough nonetheless. That being said, wasn't Euphrati Keeler banishing daemons with nothing but faith all the way back at the very beginning of the Heresy? Seems to me there might be a little bit more going on then just human belief shaping things the way the Ecclesiarchy wants it.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

re: Eldar Gods

I either think the Eldar gods were not actually gods but warp entities/deamons or they were parts of the various god concepts that dwindled as new concepts emerged. I'm not sure if we are actually saying the same thing in the case of the latter, I think we are.

edit: The only difference being that I suggest that the battles between the gods is an allegory to explain the shifts of the warp, whilst i believe you suggest that there is a physical (proabably more correctly, psychical) battle that occurs. If that's your case I think there is more evidence for your pov, but i like debating (or arguing!). 

re: God Emperor

You have to remember that the Word Bearers had been spreading this message way before the events in Horus Rising. Just the simple belief that the Emperor was a god should have been sufficient to draw on that warp energy.

If you take this view to the extreme (as i sometimes do) you can argue that the Emperor 'the man' and the 'God Emperor' are two separare things. 

The human belief in the Emperor relies on the notion that the physical man sits on the throne and lives, but looking at it from the pov of the warp (and not the astronomicon) as long as the people believe that the all powerful Emperor still lives the warp Emperor lives. To follow this on, the Golden Throne could fail and the Emperor 'the man' could be dead, but as long as the populace is unware nothing changes (IMO - and that's a wacky uncommon opinion). Equally, if the Emperor was thought to be dead the associated warp power would dwindle even if he still lived.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

increaso said:


> re: Eldar Gods
> 
> I either think the Eldar gods were not actually gods but warp entities/deamons or they were parts of the various god concepts that dwindled as new concepts emerged. I'm not sure if we are actually saying the same thing in the case of the latter, I think we are.


'God' is a subjective term, based upon a multitude of factors often shaped by the individual themselves. One theory I quite like is how the Eldar Gods were infact just mightly warriors of the Eldar - representatives of a unique aspect of the Eldar culture and psyche. Khaine may have been the greatest warrior of the Eldar for example, before the fall, and as a result the Eldar may have payed reverence to this being, long after his natural death - furthering the myth, which fell into legend, and finally the legend ascended to Godhood. 

Another theory is that the Eldar Gods might just be representations of certain parts of Eldar society or traits of the Eldar themselves. For example, Cegorach by actually _be _the Webway, and when one takes into consideration how the Eldar race pays strong heed to religious beliefs and customs, it is not too absurd for them to personnify mundane objects, traits and warriors into supernatural, Godlike beings. Cegorach might be the Webway, but Eldar mythology has alloyed the facts together into a poem, myth or song of artistic importance. 

On the contrary, perhaps we are adding real-life concepts to a fictional universe which these 'laws' hold no basis?


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

In regards to the chaos powers, I think it is stated that Khorne is the strongest and Slaanesh the weakest. I don't believe they're completely invincible either, the Emperor clearly had powers that severely threatened their existence/power.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

If the Warp is a parallel dimension that resonates with/mirrors the psychic energy of the material world, then I think it's most likely that the Eldar deities were the Warp-dwelling manifestations of their race's psychic power.

Unlike Khorne & Co., however, those Eldar deities were focused to a single race's ideals, ethics, etc., instead of representing universal (and thus, more powerful) archetypes like death/violence, mutation/change, etc. As such, they were no match for any of the Big Four when the time of the Fall came.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

AK74Bob said:


> In regards to the chaos powers, I think it is stated that Khorne is the strongest and Slaanesh the weakest. I don't believe they're completely invincible either, the Emperor clearly had powers that severely threatened their existence/power.


Although, you must remember, the Emperor started as nothing more than a Insurmountably awesome, psychically attuned HUMAN being. Only through augmentation and such did he attain what he was. That's what i believe. feel free to refute me, everyone. :wink:

CP


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I dont believe any god is the strongest. Their power rises and falls all the time, with whichever god is in acendence at the time will likely then enact whatever plans or schemes they have


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

_Lexicanum_ says this about Khorne, "He is the mightiest and the oldest of the four Chaos gods, fully coming into existence during Terra's Middle Ages." Furthermore since 40K's motto is eternal galactic conflict, it stands to reason that Khorne would be the strongest of the chaos powers...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't take lex as gospel. He may be the oldest, but his power and influence can still be eclipsed by the others and vice-versa


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> I figured it was only a matter of time before you showed up again with a quote like this :laugh:. I can't argue it but I knew that from the start so I’ve been careful to never imply that the imperials could “win” outright.






NiceGuyEddy said:


> And again I will say that I don’t think chaos has the power to aid cults with daemons and sorcery across the whole imperium.


I think it's more to do with uninterest rather than ability. The chaos gods for the most part care nothing for the affairs of mortals, as long as the eternal flow of emotion is protected and no serious threats have arisen, the chaos gods will literally focus the vast majority of their consciousness on the great game.



AK74Bob said:


> In regards to the chaos powers, I think it is stated that Khorne is the strongest and Slaanesh the weakest. I don't believe they're completely invincible either, the Emperor clearly had powers that severely threatened their existence/power.





AK74Bob said:


> _Lexicanum_ says this about Khorne, "He is the mightiest and the oldest of the four Chaos gods, fully coming into existence during Terra's Middle Ages." Furthermore since 40K's motto is eternal galactic conflict, it stands to reason that Khorne would be the strongest of the chaos powers...


I wouldn't use _Lexicanum_ in debates, it's fan-edited and therefore often biased or just simply wrong. 

As for Khorne being the most powerful of the Four, generally speaking that used to be the case (in previous background). But the release of _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ expanded the lore surrounding the Great Game, and revealed that the _'hierarchy'_ (shall we call it) of the gods is constantly in flux, dependent on countless factors.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think it's more to do with uninterest rather than ability. The chaos gods for the most part care nothing for the affairs of mortals, as long as the eternal flow of emotion is protected and no serious threats have arisen, the chaos gods will literally focus the vast majority of their consciousness on the great game.


I could not have said it better. People overestimate Chaos Gods' interest in the mortal dimensions and the beings that live, breed and die within its realm, due to their involvement in the Horus Heresy. To steal the famed line from _Warpsword_ and twist it slightly - 'The Chaos Gods care not from whence the flow of emotion comes, only that it does.'' 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As for Khorne being the most powerful of the Four, generally speaking that used to be the case (in previous background). But the release of _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ expanded the lore surrounding the Great Game, and revealed that the _'hierarchy'_ (shall we call it) of the gods is constantly in flux, dependent on countless factors.


Although I'm relatively untouched by older, previous background, I was led to believe (By _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ *or* the _Daemons of Chaos Armybook_ underneath the Blue Scribes' beastiary) that Tzeentch was originally the 'grestest' of the Chaos Gods, unmatched by all but the combined might of the other three (To which we presume is after the fall of the Eldar). Only the union of Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh toppled Tzeentch's mastery causing him to shatter his staff into a thousand pieces? 

Additionally the size of a Gods realm, within the aether, matches his dominance over the Warp. Thus a larger realm means said God's strength is greater (for a period of time) over another God, hence the constant flux of power within the Great Game.


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

X FiftY 1ne said:


> As far as the big E reading minds...it's hard to say. He's such a mysterious character that we really don't know much of anything really, say for the obvious. Other than that, he could very well have known of the corruption taking place within his sons and let the heresy happen (for reasons unknown). Or, he might not of known simple as that. He may be the most powerful Psyker ever but, he is still bound by the mortal realm and reading the thoughts of minds isn't as simple as reading a book.
> 
> I've been reading TFH for the second time now and I'm still so confused as to what's actually taking place during this so called "vision" Ingethel is showing Argel and the marines. Ingethel states this is a "vision" and is showing the marines the past, how their fathers were created, the pact with chaos the emporer made, and the Fall of Eldar thus creating the EoT which we all know of today.
> 
> ...


I don't think its a vision. As i read it they actually go back in time. Time flows differently in the warp. It also seems to me that the Emperor is trying to end all religons to starve the Chaos gods of faith, i belive he intended to acheive godhood all along


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I haven't read any of this thread yet. I just wanted to say this... So far, I've read:

Horus Rising
False Gods
Galaxy in Flames
The Flight of the Eisenstein
Nemesis
The First Heretic
Eisenhorn Omnibus
Ravenor Omnibus
Blood Angels Omnibus
Blood Angels Second Omnibus
Grey Knights Omnibus
Soul Drinkers Omnibus
Atlas Infernal

(Also Heldenhammer, Empire, and God King.)


The First Heretic is my favorite so far. I read all but Soul Drinkers before FH, so I knew a bit of what had happened in the 40K universe. But to actually see it start - to watch Lorgar turn to Chaos - was amazing. Hearing Erebus and Kor Phaeron help Lorgar choose this path; seeing the Eye of Terror in an earlier stage; seeing Cadia before it became what I read in the 40K books; watching Lorgar, Argel Tal, and the others learn about the existence of powers the Emperor had always said did not exist; seeing and smelling Ingethel Ascended; hearing about the eldar from this pov... And knowing all that's about to happen, beginning with Erebus (Possibly my favorite character of all these books!) showing up in the beginning of the HH. It's all incredible!


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