# GW finally getting it right?



## bitsandkits

I was wondering how people feel GW are doing, a few years ago they seem to had got flack for everything they did, but lately it feels as though they have turned a corner or at least done enough to silence the critics or maybe the community got sick of the whining ?

So have they got better?


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## MidnightSun

The FAQs updating books to 7th ed, the addition of the Toxicrene and Maleceptor (new models and rules for a Codex; sure, they're not exactly going to win any tournaments, but GW is adding new models to a faction outside of a Codex release and the rules are free because they come in the box. How is that in any way not a brilliant thing?) and a similar concept with Dataslates (sure, it's a microtransaction, but it's also adding Be'lakor and Cypher and Tyrannic War Veterans without having to wait four years for the next iteration of your Codex and it adds more options to the game), a more general acceptance of Forge World through use of it's models in White Dwarf, the re-introduction of army list variety (in 5th, we had FOC-swapping characters and that was great, and then the whole idea lulled in mid-6th/7th edition until Grey Knights, who have a brilliant Detachment that forces you to make real choices as to which FOC you use, let alone what units you put within that).

Yeah, I'm really liking GW at the moment.


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## mayegelt

Mixed bag for me. I do like the new models. For the last few years the standard of the models has gone up and up. Partially due to competition and also just natural standard increasing over time.
What I am not a fan of is various forms of 'player tax' that seems to have been brought in. I do understand that GW needs to make money, but buying a codex is ok, but then having to buy the supplement codex to get the most out of the codex you bought is not. Dataslates are a funny one. I dislike them bringing out the Dataslates as stand alone products (such as Cypher or Be'lakor) especially when the Dataslate is an incredibly powerful or must have unit (Normal Helbrutes Vs Dataslate Helbrutes being a good example). Forgeworld stuff can also be a pain, but you get charged a lot for the models in that one as well as the books. What I don't like with them is the continual reprinting of the same rules over several books. So Imperial Armour Apoc had a load of Chaosy stuff in. But IA:13 had all of them, mostly unchanged then added in Renegades and Heretics and a couple of chaos versions of imperial 30k tanks (what imperial players had access to for ages)
HOWEVER they seem to be turning a corner with that type of thing and releasing the new units / models as rules included in your purchase or featuring them in White Dwarf (or both). The only prob I see with that is if it comes in WD only and you are a player who started the army long after the WD rules print, so have no way of getting the additional rules for something that could be incredibly useful. An example of this used to be GamesDay Models, where you could only buy the model on the day and your programme had the rules for him. Ones like Crom the Conqueror were insanely good if I remember right.

I do like the Digital copies of the codexes. This helps a lot with travel and stuff, especially if you are going with CSM with Daemon allies and some Forgeworld tanks or whatever. Adding about 1KG in weight with some books it all mounts up if you aren't driving. Also the feature to search for things from a side menu rather than trying to mark up pages is a bonus.
HOWEVER I do not like the format of the recent codexes. Having the compiled list at the end that had all the models in brief with their pts values and the names of what rules affected them was great. The new one forces you to either use something like Battlescribe or endlessly flick back and forth in the book when planning an army. I much preferred being able to see all the units that classed as X over the space of 2-3 pages. Though I do understand in part why GW did it. Some of the reason I have been told was because of copy write law. In that for publications for gaming and hobbies you are allowed to photocopy (or digitise) X% of a book for personal use (X depending on country). Because of this people used to copy the last 20pages of so what had all the stats and costs of each of the units, and then the reference at the end tended to have most of the special rules and weapons. GW of course didn't like this because people could bring in those 20pages with them without really needing to have bought a copy of the book (but claiming they had).

The one big thing I am hoping for though is that currently they have a fast release system on the codexes (about 1 a month maybe 1 every 2 plus a supplement), and what I don't want to happen is that in 10months time when they have released every 5-6th edition book left to bring up to 7th that they then start again and release 7th editions after only having 7th edition out for just over a year.
The other one what might be interesting and soon, is will old supplement books work with new released codexes. So for instance Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are designed for the 5th edition CSM book. But will they still work with 7th edition (what I think is due for april->july next year).


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## iamtheeviltwin

Personally, I am really enjoying GW right now. They feel much more like the Games Workshop of the late 90s, early 2000s that I enjoyed. Lots of releases, rules and new units being released on a regular basis. Great new models that no one else really rivals. The price point is a bit of a killer, I would like to see them find a way to drop the price on rank and file models a bit and balance that with the higher cost of the center piece models.

I think their digital platforms are still a work in progress, but they are getting there and it seems like they are thinking ahead about future technologies such as 3D printing, and the eventual end of the LoTR IP. So it will be nice to see what the future brings.

The only thing I am really missing is the sort of "wild west" feel of their specialist games line, like Warhammer Quest and Bloodbowl. However, they seem to be trying to scratch that itch through third parties via Digital Products and Fantasy Flight.


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## Khorne's Fist

Nobody could ever slate them for the quality of their minis, and on the whole the recent releases such as the DE and End Times stuff are simply stunning. Rules wise, 7th Ed seems to have generally been perceived as an improvement on 6th, and the codexes also seem to been well received.

However, the biggest issue for me, as it has been for years, is the price. The price of two units in 40k will get you a full army in other systems like BA or FoW. I will always love 40k as a game and a universe, but with so many other cheaper, more accessible systems out there, I won't be pumping any serious cash into it again any time soon.


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## Sethis

For me the fundamental problems I've had for years still haven't been addressed - mainly rules balance. Considering that it's generally the same people who've been writing rules since what, 3rd or 4th, you'd hope they might be a little better at it by now.


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## venomlust

I've been really liking GW the past year, as a fan. When I started the hobby just over a year ago, I was appalled that GW released new editions of the game without updating every codex. Veterans laughed and said, "Oh, you." Well look at 'em now! Shouldn't be much longer until they're all hardback. Supplements and dataslates are a tough pill to swallow but really do provide an avenue for providing new content, and you really don't even have to buy them to use their game rules.



As a consumer, I still only make purchases through third parties and eBay. I don't think that will ever change. There's practically no reason for me to ever pay retail prices.


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## Vaz

Nope.

I hate playing with tonka toys and pay to win mechanics, where choosing x-new unit wins you games. I could understand making cool rules to make cool new models sell, but that units such as Heldrakes, Nagash, Stormpotatoes, Wraithknights, Superheavies, Riptides, etc are necessary to win (or at least effectively counter those that opponents have, and essentially codex creep is really annoying.

Continually escalating prices which do not match inflation, and utter ridiculous business positions and choices do not equate to a particularly well enjoyed game. I am yet to pay for a book since 7th edition BRB and it will continue to go that way. I am sick of being penalised by an inability to learn from their own mistakes, and having charges for their legal bills and lost profits from pirating applied to my own purchases.


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## Reaper45

Well GW is at least backing up their being a model company with extremely useful painting guides and painting videos.

So they're doing better.


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## Vaz

Games Workshop deluding themselves into being a modeling company these days is as ludicrous as Nintendo pretending that pokemon games are designed for kids.


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## Drohar

Tough people (me including) complain about the price, I'd rather buy expensive and cool than cheap and ugly. 40k world is my biggest reason to collect GW and they are getting it right. It is not easy satisfying everyones needs or wishes, but generally they are doing a good job. (Please don't take it into consideration that I collect Nids and just got two new models )


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## Einherjar667

I think they are doing an excellent job. I have only been disappointed a few times, and so slightly that I can't even remember what about. Most of the rabble on the internet, the complaining, is borderline disillusioned ramblings (yeah I spent some time on WarSeer)


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## Fallen

I'm disappointed with the Product that I receive for a $60 codex, to the point that I will no longer buy a new codex. I fail to see enough "stuff" for me to justify the price point for the codexs (as much as like the good eternal balance within). When I compare the codexs with other like items from other ranges (Bolt Action armies being an example).

I am disappointed with the lack of actual forewarning/hype/build up on new products. As much as I like having new things being released often; I'm sorry, but I can not budget my hobby expenses into "rumors" for the $45 and up items (aka all of GW), I have to plan for the release and save up to the amount, otherwise I wait a month or two until I can buy it.

I am rather disappointed with the route of game play that GW went with for general games, and lots of the finesse changes from 6th to 7th, that was a rather "tight" expectations for pickup games with some cool styles of play if one wished to do a special type of game with someone.

----

Most of all I feel saddened by GW's lack of being a "game" company with their pathetic excuses for their, IMO, lackluster rules and lack of multiple variants of of game play being of rough equality between them. For instance a pure Close combat army, vs a pure shooty army; MC heavy tyranids vs swarm tyranids; Mono god builds in either Chaos force vs multi god builds...

Over all I feel that GW has been doing better, but "better" is not enough for me to spend any of my money on them with any actual consistency.


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## Serpion5

What's with all the bitching about the price? All it is in this hobby is a matter of patience. 

I want two maleceptors and two toxicrenes in my collection to give me good list options. Naturally I'm not going to by all of them at once. One kit per week. Maybe one kit per fortnight even. That gives me plenty of time to build and even paint the previous one. 

You treat it like a long term hobby, which it is, and there's no problem. If I can manage this on Australian prices I'm pretty sure anyone else can too.  


Personally I think GW are doing a great job lately. Even though they've shifted their focus to their models before their game, I feel that the current ruleset is one of the most balanced versions of the game to date. Add to which gw are now willing to add new units outside releases and it's easy to rectify weaker codexes with a new unit here and there, tyranids being the prime example.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Honestly, I think GW has been doing ok. Since I first came in to this hobby, a year before 5th ended, I've had pleasant experiences all around. I've questioned their method on why they do certain things the way they do, but, people on here and a friend who is a former shop owner have helped me put things in perspective.
Overall, I like everything that has been released in this year since the introduction of WD weekly #1 on up to the current End Times for Fantasy.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

The models themselves have never been my problem, they're all almost without exception excellent. They've just failed to meaningfully address game balance.

I think it's just so many people have jumped ship that there are less people to complain.


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## SilverTabby

Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:


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## humakt

SilverTabby said:


> Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:


This I have to whole heartedly agree with. 

I am finding in hard to keep up with the break neck release speed GW are maintaining. But I love this. It means when I play somebody I don't know everything they have in their army. I am kept guessing which is all part of the enjoyment. I now want to take different lists to see what happens in certain circumstances or against different armies. I want to tray a data slate here or formation there. Woohoo for variety.

Another thing about 7th I have found I really like are the Maelstrom of war missions. I do think you need to be prepared to play them, as you need a mobile army to have a chance of getting a steady build up of VP's but its definitely fun to play.

Perhaps I just have a very relaxed gaming circle who are not out to win a game in 3 turns. For me GW are doing a great job with only a few very small rule niggles that I would change but nothing drastic (haywire springs to mind as way too powerful).


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## MidnightSun

I'll just add, because this just struck me; yes, the Grey Knights codex has less in it that the old one. But frankly, there's not a single unit in there that I would call dead weight. Draigo is perhaps below average, but honestly that's only really because Draigo is very expensive and doesn't fill your HQ slot (which is full of expensive dudes) rather than any problem with his unit entry. Dreadnoughts, equally, but since Dreadnoughts are kind of poor in every Codex, I don't really begrudge the GK book for that. Purgators compete for slot space, but there are worse units in the game than a couple of Incinerators jumping out of a Razorback or shooting out of a Rhino top hatch. I'm probably not going to bring Halberds, but Warding Staves, Swords, Falchions and Hammers are all useful. I doubt I'll use Psilencers, but Incinerators, Psycannons and all the Heavy versions of the weapons are viable.

Yeah, the GK codex is smaller, yes, Psybolt disappeared, yes, you need to download a small .pdf or keep your old Grey Knight book handy if you want to use the Inquisition. But I think, overall, the new GK book is better, certainly with regard to internal balance. Add in Officio Assassinorum, and Inquisition, and it's far better than the old book.

I think it might be something that affects players who've been playing for a long time, and in a fairly relaxed gaming environment - you become less concerned with external balance and more concerned about a Codex' internal balance.


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## Vaz

SilverTabby said:


> Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:


With what's assumed the majority of the writers having played the game that long as well, it comes across that those who are writing those rules know nothing of game balance either.
@MidnightSun - in regards to Grey Knights - does it not bother you that you now have to pay for not only a new codex, but 2 other smaller books to use the same rules?


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## Khorne's Fist

Serpion5 said:


> What's with all the bitching about the price?


It's not so much the price, but value for money. I have no problem paying €50 for a box of toy soldiers, but that €50 goes a lot further in other systems. In 40k it might buy me a Stormwolf, which would amount to about 15% of the points cost of an army. That same €50 would get me 2 boxes of Warlord Games excellent plastic US marines for Bolt Action, which could be used to make about 600 or 700 points of a 1000 point army. If GW offered even close to that kind of value I'd probably have one of each army.


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## Sethis

Something that I would truly like to see to address those price issues:

We have clip-together models for the base game - Dark Vengeance, Black Reach and so on. They're great quality sculpts and only sacrifice versatility (and even then, you can still do some stuff with them). They're also far cheaper to make than multi-part kits, as evidenced by the price that GW was able to put them out for.

So my idea would be for each battleforce to be clip-together models, for each army. You get two infantry squads, a vehicle/MC and a commander. Obviously new moulds and stuff are the significant cost for GW here, so they'd be rotated in with codex releases rather than all done at once. Clip together Rhino? Fire Warriors? Daemons? Yes please.

I know for a fact that if they were the same quality as DV they'd sell like hot cakes, at the right price point.


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## MidnightSun

Vaz said:


> With what's assumed the majority of the writers having played the game that long as well, it comes across that those who are writing those rules know nothing of game balance either.
> @MidnightSun - in regards to Grey Knights - does it not bother you that you now have to pay for not only a new codex, but 2 other smaller books to use the same rules?


Wait, you're supposed to give money for Inquisition and Assassinorum?


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## Vaz

That was the idea anyway. But GW are too stupid to cut out the piracy market, and prefer to rinse actual paying customers of £60 to cover the losses. Not realising that this encourages long term supporters of GW to turn to such.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

SilverTabby said:


> Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:


Haha, the condescending veteran response, I wasn't expecting that! :laugh:

Seriously though, in second edition 40k didn't have the level of competition it does nowadays. There's almost nothing GW does anymore that another company doesn't do better, which is sad. For all it's faults I do love 40k.



humakt said:


> This I have to whole heartedly agree with.
> 
> I am finding in hard to keep up with the break neck release speed GW are maintaining. But I love this. It means when I play somebody I don't know everything they have in their army. I am kept guessing which is all part of the enjoyment. I now want to take different lists to see what happens in certain circumstances or against different armies. I want to tray a data slate here or formation there. Woohoo for variety.
> 
> Another thing about 7th I have found I really like are the Maelstrom of war missions. I do think you need to be prepared to play them, as you need a mobile army to have a chance of getting a steady build up of VP's but its definitely fun to play.


Fair enough man, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I think having a large collection of models to draw upon would definitely make it a lot more enjoyable. Given how long I've played 40k, my collection of finished projects is pathetically small.



Vaz said:


> With what's assumed the majority of the writers having played the game that long as well, it comes across that those who are writing those rules know nothing of game balance either.
> @MidnightSun - in regards to Grey Knights - does it not bother you that you now have to pay for not only a new codex, but 2 other smaller books to use the same rules?


I'd wager they just don't care. If not it means they *still* haven't realised plasma pistols aren't worth 15pts. No one can be that incompetent.



Khorne's Fist said:


> It's not so much the price, but value for money. I have no problem paying €50 for a box of toy soldiers, but that €50 goes a lot further in other systems. In 40k it might buy me a Stormwolf, which would amount to about 15% of the points cost of an army. That same €50 would get me 2 boxes of Warlord Games excellent plastic US marines for Bolt Action, which could be used to make about 600 or 700 points of a 1000 point army. If GW offered even close to that kind of value I'd probably have one of each army.


God forbid you play a horde army. Currently I can field most squads in X-wing, and yet for the cost of all that stuff I still couldn't even afford a 1500pt 40k SM army. If you include the cost of rules and codices I can't even get half way there, Ridiculous!


On a more positive note: I guess the thing I like most about GW is their models and kits. There are better models out there, but in terms of bits and variety the GW kits are great. Also some of their vehicles (especially the FW stuff) are pretty damn awesome. The Leman Russ still remains one of my favourite sci-fi tanks of all time.


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## MidnightSun

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> I'd wager they just don't care. If not it means they *still* haven't realised plasma pistols aren't worth 15pts. No one can be that incompetent.


I'm expecting that to change _fairly_ soon, maybe with the next Marine book; Plasma Pistols cost 15pts because that's what they've always cost. Land Raiders and Terminators are overpriced as well, they're just left that way because that's how they've been forever (and for the old guard, yes, I know, not literally forever, but the history of 'modern' 40k). That's been broken with a couple of things recently, if I'm remembering rightly - the fiddling with the cost of Tacticals was a step, and the new 'different' Terminators (GKT and Chaos Terminators - things that aren't Storm Bolter/PFist with a Sergeant with Power Sword and the option for an Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer or Cyclone) being far cheaper are both hopefully signs of things to come.



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> God forbid you play a horde army. Currently I can field most squads in X-wing, and yet for the cost of all that stuff I still couldn't even afford a 1500pt 40k SM army. If you include the cost of rules and codices I can't even get half way there, Ridiculous!


I know it's highly subjective and I'm not knocking it, but I'll just say that I'd gladly pay for 40k miniatures over X-Wing toys.

Totally agree that horde armies are expensive as balls though - Nids can get _kinda_ an okay deal with the snap-fit Gaunts, but Orks and Guard get shafted (unless you picked up a gorillion Black Reach Boyz, natch).


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## Reaper45

Vaz said:


> Games Workshop deluding themselves into being a modeling company these days is as ludicrous as Nintendo pretending that pokemon games are designed for kids.


Funny your should say that, because pokemon games are kids games.

It just so happens that nintendo ensured that they were polished to the point where adults could enjoy playing them.

40k miniatures are models that you put together, paint, and make your own that just so happen to have rules so you can play games with them.

Coming into the hobby to be nothing more than a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning kills the hobby for the ones who want to head to a GW store on a friday night and hang out for a few hours painting models and having a good time. 

Of course you're just going to ignore everything I wrote and insult me.


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## Vaz

My point exactly. The game itself was designed for children initially - mainly to piggyback off the anime, comics and general hype. But recognising that there is an indepth battling and competitive scheme - usually by those who have played back since the halcyon days of red and blue, or maybe gold/silver if you were a late comer. I was on a flight out of Kandahar back to cyprus after 9 months in afghanistan, and I had 100 marines yelling 'go pikachu!' As i took on gary at cerulean town bridge.

Nintendo and gamefreak/games workshop acknowledge/refuse to acknowledge that people battling their pokemon/models that they have spent ages trying to catch them all/model and paint, and so back up that huge investment in time/money and effort/effort by providing fantastic, in depth and complex, but oddly balanced and well documented battle and training system with IV's, EV's, typing Combinations, status conditions/poorly written, poorly supported, badly balanced rules and a non existent competitive scene, while backed up with an excellent support of veteran players/none existant encouragement of veterans.

The ethos is the exact same. The execution is entirely different. Maybe that is down to size, but a company as successful as Nintendo providing high end retail capital expenses, GW can learn the most. It is almost contempt with which veterans are treated.

GW needs to stop hiring fans to write codexes and looking at those who actually play the game at that level. Similar to how DOTA and Call of Duty and other MLG Esports use such 'semiprofessionals' to shape the design and balance of their game.

I don't like being shit on by my own investment, and hence i refuse to support them.


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## Fallen

MidnightSun said:


> I know it's highly subjective and I'm not knocking it, but I'll just say that I'd gladly pay for 40k miniatures over X-Wing toys.


To be fair, there is truth to "You get what you pay for", when we are arguing about the quality of the models, and I think no one here is giving GW a hard time on their models (pricing structure maybe, but that is a separate issue here). 

How ever most people who like x-wing are drawn to its rules and game play. It's a tight rule set where there are practically zero rule arguments during games (how often do you see something happen in a GW game where you have to "roll off"?), and is a fast paced game where it takes considerable less time to play than a 40k or fantasy game, and considerably less stuff to bring.



Reaper45 said:


> 40k miniatures are models that you put together, paint, and make your own that just so happen to have rules so you can play games with them.
> 
> Coming into the hobby to be nothing more than a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning kills the hobby for the ones who want to head to a GW store any night and hang out for a few hours painting models and having a good time.


First off, I live in the US where there are considerably less GW stores, and the ones that do exist have zero place to paint and "hang out", maybe its different in the UK and Europe - but everywhere else a GW is the equivalent to Gamestop. We do not really go to them to "hang out", we do not go to them and paint there, mainly because there is nowhere to paint anything, or limited space that is used for gaming.

So, just because GW - who I think we can all agree is on the top of the table top world - HAPPENS to have rules means that I cannot have expectations for the company regarding said rules? I cannot have expectations on how I view their GAME?

I find it when GW is the equivalent to the New York Yankees, Manchester United, The Ohio State Buckeyes, or whoever is the dominant team/player in the sport(s) you watch, to not have high expectations for the WHOLE of the group, not just one portion of the team. It is also a different level of expectations when people regard those teams than they do the New York Mets, Crystal Palace, Purdue, etc. 

I find it rather shocking where lots of people tell me that I am a "a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning" (I am grouped into the more asshole spot, but that is life) over the internet because I find the quality of THE GAME to be sub par, and not up to the standards that I have set on the game.

I am sorry, I do not collect vast amounts of orks, guardsmen, nids, CSM, SMs for the "hobby" I collect the vast amounts of GW models, because there IS A GAME with it, otherwise I would probably only own a fraction of what I do. I do not SPEND MONEY on models alone in the quantities that I have just to have them; I am sorry for the fact that I have higher expectations for a company to provide quality rules for a GAME that I play that uses their models, which does not match the quality of the models that I buy. I am sorry for being a CUSTOMER of your company. I am sorry for wanting to get a good deal on my time and effort. I am sorry for WANTING to spend MONEY on products that you have, but lacking usefulness in YOUR GAME that I PLAY. I am sorry for have expectations for you that others do not. I am sorry for being invested with you, I am sorry that the game that I love the most is now the most boring game I that I own.


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## Vaz

I love how equating balance results in being labled a power gamer. A power gamer wants exactly the opposite.


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## Reaper45

Fallen said:


> snip


So tell me, since you can't paint at your local store only game, how many hours do you spend playing the game? And how many hours do you spend painting models?



> I find it rather shocking where lots of people tell me that I am a "a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning" (I am grouped into the more asshole spot, but that is life) over the internet because I find the quality of THE GAME to be sub par, and not up to the standards that I have set on the game.


Maybe the power gamer was uncalled for, but tell me are you really interested in the actual hobby or just playing games?

Right now I own a green tide of orks, small force of guard, 500 points of dark eldar. Random tau, eldar, chaos, space wolves, necrons and a few space marines.
I don't give a shit about starting a tau army.I couldn't care less about having a space marine army. I own the models because they look cool, and I enjoy spending the time building and painting them. 

So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?


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## Sethis

Reaper45 said:


> So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?


I'll phrase that a little differently:

"So tell me whose [sic] GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose [sic] only going to get a full 2000pt army and fully paint/base it (with GW paints, glue and flock) to max his tourney points every time a new "overpowered" codex comes out?"

Dunno about you, but I would have thought the latter guy would be a more attractive customer - given that he's rotating entire armies wholesale on a regular basis rather than just sticking to the Orks he's collected since 1995.

I'll also reply to the power gamer comment with the obligatory "game balance isn't just important for tournament players, it's essential to the enjoyment of casual players as well" response. To draw a parallel, it doesn't matter if you play a shooter casually, or as part of a clan/team for cash rewards - both players want to experience as few bugs as possible in their playthroughs.


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## Reaper45

Sethis said:


> I'll phrase that a little differently:
> 
> "So tell me whose [sic] GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose [sic] only going to get a full 2000pt army and fully paint/base it (with GW paints, glue and flock) to max his tourney points every time a new "overpowered" codex comes out?"
> 
> Dunno about you, but I would have thought the latter guy would be a more attractive customer - given that he's rotating entire armies wholesale on a regular basis rather than just sticking to the Orks he's collected since 1995.
> 
> I'll also reply to the power gamer comment with the obligatory "game balance isn't just important for tournament players, it's essential to the enjoyment of casual players as well" response. To draw a parallel, it doesn't matter if you play a shooter casually, or as part of a clan/team for cash rewards - both players want to experience as few bugs as possible in their playthroughs.


If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.


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## Tawa

SilverTabby said:


> Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:


I'll see your 2Ed, and raise you a Rogue Trader.... :good:



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Haha, the condescending veteran response, I wasn't expecting that! :laugh:


See above. :laugh:


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## humakt

Tawa said:


> I'll see your 2Ed, and raise you a Rogue Trader.... :good:


I've got a 1st edition of WHF in the loft, but then I'm an old fart as well.

I think there is too much emphasis on game balance. GW are not encouraging tournaments because that's not the game style they like.

I understand why people want balance but its not happened in the last 20 years so I don't see it changing anytime soon.


----------



## Tawa

humakt said:


> I've got a 1st edition of WHF in the loft, but then I'm an old fart as well.


Ace :good: I've also still got my copies of Ere We Go! and Freebooterz somewhere


----------



## Sethis

Reaper45 said:


> If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.


They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.

If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.

However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.

Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.



humakt said:


> I think there is too much emphasis on game balance. GW are not encouraging tournaments because that's not the game style they like.


Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.


----------



## SilverTabby

I remember what happened when they let Jervis, a hardcore tournament winner at the time, write the Skaven army book. Result? A book that everyone took, because you could be sick with it. And so everyone complained, even the tourney players. 

You want books written so tourney players approve? Then *every* book must be written like that, and virtually none of the writers play that way, and you alienate 80% of the actual player base. 

I really like the current writing mentality, that the game is *fun* first, competitive second. It's a game, and is what you make of it. My nids suck in CC, yet still I fling them at it because I have fun doing so. Each to their own.

Oh, and from reading the books and knowing the writers, 3rd Ed 40k was the first edition with younger players specifically in mind...


----------



## Sethis

I'm not saying let them write the codex, just take their opinions on board. I don't think I'm alone in expressing the opinion that Jervis can go suck a mercury filled dildo dry either.


----------



## Einherjar667

I am greatly enjoying the End Times phase of WFB, epic times for the fantasy crowd.


----------



## Reaper45

Sethis said:


> They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.
> 
> If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.
> 
> However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.
> 
> Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.


Correct me if I am wrong but didn't GW attempt to properly balance the game once? wasn't the overall opinion negative?

GW made their position clear they're a model company, that is something they're supporting, the whole gaming thing is getting low.


----------



## Fallen

Reaper45 said:


> So tell me, since you can't paint at your local store only game, how many hours do you spend playing the game? And how many hours do you spend painting models?
> 
> Maybe the power gamer was uncalled for, but tell me are you really interested in the actual hobby or just playing games?
> 
> So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?


I have mentioned this elsewhere, and probably on Heresy as well, but I have not played a game of 40k since 7th was dropped - nor have I painted anything since that time either. But before, when I was having FUN with the game? I probably spent 3-6 hours a week building and painting stuff as I was interested in the army, I only played once a week where I got maybe 1-3 games in that were 1,500 points and under - if I wanted to play a bigger game then I would likely only get one game in at the FLGS. Of the time at the FLGS (no GW store near me until last year, which is pathetically small) I would spend 4-6 hours.

The amount of armies that you or I own is not relevant, the amount of redundancy in the amount of models does, I do not need to own multiple tactical squads, or 300 ork boyz, if I wanted to collect and paint stuffs, we own so much stuff of GW is because we get together with our friends once or twice a week and play a game or two while BSing a bunch of stuff. If GW wants to be a MODEL company, let me know I will stop playing the game; stop spending money; Not care about them; Spend my money on other games that I will actually play; Care for those games; and maybe once a year I will set aside time and money to buy a unit from FW. 

I want balance in the game so that there are a wider variety of armies that I can make from a single codex, and have a roughly equal amount of success against a random list. For example I do not want a list where a Mono-God Slaanesh demons army by default has a negative modifier on its winning percentage. I want the game the FORGING OF THE NARRATIVE to dictate to me my winning chances, but by having army builds by default be worse than others in the book BEFORE I PUT THEM ON THE TABLE is inexcusable and will not be tolerated.

When GW effectively destroys the Dark Angel codex of their uniqueness when they released the Space Marines codex is again inexcusable and will not be tolerated.

These are just a couple of examples, there are more - but I will spare everyone (including myself) and stop here.



Reaper45 said:


> If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.


If GW cared about it's customers they would care about tournaments.



Sethis said:


> They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.
> 
> If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.
> 
> However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.
> 
> Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.
> 
> Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.


I agree with a lot of what Sethis says here, In particular the first and last paragraphs. 



Reaper45 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but didn't GW attempt to properly balance the game once? wasn't the overall opinion negative?
> 
> GW made their position clear they're a model company, that is something they're supporting, the whole gaming thing is getting low.


When did GW attempt to balance the game? Balance is something that needs to ALWAYS be worked on with the style of releases that GW does.

I own the game as far back as 4th edition; 5th edition is when I started playing the game, 6th edition is the most balanced of the game (until GW released, Imperial Knights, Stronghold Assault, and Escalation).

The ideal version of the game that I see would be something that would be mostly 6th edition with a lot of key elements from 5th edition (assault from reserves, assault from a stationary vehicle - those being the big ones that I can think of). My ideal version is not what EVERYONE wants to see, but if GW is willing to make an attempt at fixing the things that I am most disappointed with I would be happy.


----------



## Moriouce

I have had this thought for a while and think this is the time and thread to put it in. 

During this legal fight in the US against a Company I can't remember, did't GW defend with that they where a miniature-producing-Company thy made collectables? Now ever since I feel the rules and all has gone downhill but the do release more new kits than ever. Are GW trying to live up to their own defence? Many here reacted to their defence with: yeah right! But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.


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## Nordicus

Moriouce said:


> But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.


I disagree with this one I must admit - I think they are thinking more about the armies than ever before at this point. Especially with the last few codices and the coming Tyranid models. 

Consdiering that Nids are now getting droppods, synapse-buffers and other goodies to help the army seems to me like they're listening to what players are saying and they are trying to rectify any shortcomings the army has. Combined with the more stable powerlevel of the recent codices _(Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights in particular) _ it looks to me like they're thinking more about balance now than they did previously.

Maybe I'm optimistic - But I really like their current approach.


----------



## bitsandkits

Moriouce said:


> I have had this thought for a while and think this is the time and thread to put it in.
> 
> During this legal fight in the US against a Company I can't remember, did't GW defend with that they where a miniature-producing-Company thy made collectables? Now ever since I feel the rules and all has gone downhill but the do release more new kits than ever. Are GW trying to live up to their own defence? Many here reacted to their defence with: yeah right! But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.



I think that they used that defense in the US as its a far more understandable point of reference for a jury and judge to understand, sometimes the non hobbiest has trouble with exactly what GW/40K/Warhammer actually is(some of the hobbiests do too lol) 
And from a certain point of veiw the models are collectables, when you decide on your army you have in effect created a "collection" , ok it may not consist of ming dynasty pots or valuable stamps but there is a very real "collection" that goes on, quite a number of people involved in the hobby have models from many years ago, others buy limited editions, others buy anything and everything relating to there army of choice, so its impossible to dismiss that this hobby is very much about buying collectables, that isnt all of the hobby but it is a significant part of it and it really is as essential as building,painting and playing, how else would we know people with 20000 points of guard, or that chap whos collecting a 2nd company of marines ?

i shouldnt comment on the rules as im a very infrequent casual player at best, but im also in the camp of if its broke and you know its broke then fix it with house rules, 40k was and still is as far as i can tell a game to be played between friends on a weekend or evening in someones kitchen/dining room/basement, many chaps seem to take it far too seriously and focus far too much on whats broken rather than what isnt, Despite peoples issues with the games plenty of people for many years have seriously enjoyed playing enough to keep GW top of the pile without ever slipping off or getting seriously challenged. 

I feel that we are in a great period for GW, maybe the numbers dont reflect it yet, but i think they may be turning the corner with the current stratergy,dropping the monthly WD in favour of weekly i think was a huge step in getting stuff to market quickly. what will be interesting and telling is how they move forward after the hobbit goes.


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## MidnightSun

bitsandkits said:


> i shouldnt comment on the rules as im a very infrequent casual player at best, but im also in the camp of if its broke and you know its broke then fix it with house rules, 40k was and still is as far as i can tell a game to be played between friends on a weekend or evening in someones kitchen/dining room/basement, many chaps seem to take it far too seriously and focus far too much on whats broken rather than what isnt, Despite peoples issues with the games plenty of people for many years have seriously enjoyed playing enough to keep GW top of the pile without ever slipping off or getting seriously challenged.
> 
> I feel that we are in a great period for GW, maybe the numbers dont reflect it yet, but i think they may be turning the corner with the current stratergy,dropping the monthly WD in favour of weekly i think was a huge step in getting stuff to market quickly. what will be interesting and telling is how they move forward after the hobbit goes.


This.


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## kiro the avenger!

I think gw focuses on the models because their the first thing you see. Like when a potential customer walks in, they go 'ah that marine looks badass!!!'
They then have to sink £200 into buying a marine list (at least, likely more) before they can even play the fucking game, at which point they realise what a piece of shit the rules are... But they've already sunken £200 bucks in! Who cares!
I would enjoy 40k much more if assault squads didn't just sit down and cry upon seeing grey Knights dirt cheap terminators... I would like to use the riptides I think are badass without everyone looking at me as if I'm the scum of the earth for bringing one to a fun list...


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## Vaz

Exactly. So we go back to the original question - are GW doing Right?


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## Samules

GW is doing it completely wrong, there isn't a game store within walking distance of my house.

But seriously that's why I stopped buying their stuff. That and a bunch of new friends into M:TG. I still love the models and paint occasionally but nowhere near as religiously as I used too when I had an awesome store 2 miles away from my house. (If you guys are in Orange County California go to the Portola Plaza GW and say hi to Chris for me) That's also sadly the reason I don't post here anymore, I don't play enough or even have the most recent ruleset so I can't really discuss it. Sigh... -end nostalgia-


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## Serpion5

Vaz said:


> Exactly. So we go back to the original question - are GW doing Right?


Meaning they're not doing what you want them to do. :wink: 

They're certainly doing better than they were a few years ago.


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## Vaz

Better =/= right.

It is a step in the right direction, but they are alienating a good half, if not more of their fanbase. Good rules sell models - as evidenced by tau/dar cropping up everywhere shortly after. And newcrons, And grey knights in 5th. Vampire Counts, Skaven, Ogres, 7th edition high elves. 

They were labled broken in some aspects due to unforeseen combinations - a lack of stress testing as it were. By catering to that aspect, people might start fielding things like meganobz, assault squads, berserkers, blodthirsters etc again.

They are learning, such as now allowing 50% lords in fantasy to let you play low level monster mash lists.


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## mayegelt

It would be nice if they released a test army of the rules before they went to print, so people of the WAAC mentality could see how easy they are to break or abuse.
of course they wont because then some people might not buy the books when they do come out, but then again they claim something like 60-70% of people illegally download their stuff anyway.
Personally with most of the books i tend to look at them in store or find someone with a copy and have a gander at it. If i like it i will buy it. If not then i will just try to remember the basics or jot down a few things on scraps of paper to give me a general idea of what the rules for particularly interedting units are.


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## Submarine

My issue with GW is that they dont do much to garner custom loyalty. No reward cards, no sales, no seasonal discounts, nothing. They are a premium product that by definition excludes a large number of people and they rely solely on the natural instincts of their customer base be it a desire to collect, or to win battles by having the best units. It wouldn't hurt them to demonstrate a bit of reciprocation.

That aside, I have been involved mainly in fantasy but in general with their products for over 15 years and the models and rules have improved dramatically. 

As for the price point, there are a ton of online sellers that undercut GW so there is really no reason to go into a store and buy any of their models at their face value. Their are alternative companies that make hobby stuff like tools and paints that are much more competitively priced.

It still doesn't excuse the cost of building an army, especially when a large section of their customers are children.


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## bitsandkits

GW have done loyalty cards before and recently offered a free product and a loyalty based offer for those using the online store when they revamped it and arguably they are directly discounting more products with the current trend of packaged together kits which offer serious savings, but the question wasn't about price, the reality of price is simple, unless you give something away for free you will always exclude a portion of the population, GW can only ever set it's prices at the level that will sustain the company,its not GWS place to make it more affordable it's up to the individual customer to choose to buy or not based on whether they feel it's value for money or not, you can have loads of money and feel GW is a rip off or you can have very little cash and still feel like GW should charge more or anything in between,ultimately if you want to play the games and own the minis you will find a way.


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## Fallen

bitsandkits said:


> ...GW can only ever set it's prices at the level that will sustain the company,its not GWS place to make it more affordable it's up to the individual customer to choose...ultimately if you want to play the games and own the minis you will find a way.


Completely agree with you B&K.:good:

Unfortunately I think we can all agree on that there a lot of illegally downloaded codexs most of which are a condensed format only containing the army choices and upgrades. I think GW can still reduce the amount of pirating from people if they had different options for the books for the game.

I mean GW already makes the small A5 (or so) size books for Dark Vengeance, I cannot see a reason why they do not release that for $30 USD or whatever is roughly half of the hardback rules that they just released maybe a week or two ago?

I can see GW doing the same thing with codexs honestly, having a super cheap codex that can get used and abused during travel and not feel as badly than if one beat the crap out of their hardback codex. (I would be furious)

Especially now with the newer battle forces that are roughly $160+ USD to come with a little codex would be a great incentive to buy them.


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## mayegelt

I know it isn't a great solution. But tbh i still think that the hardback copies if bought from GW directly should come with access to a digi copy tied to the persons account.
Personally i have hardback / paper copies of the books i use. But i also have digi copies of the ones i need so dont have to carry 10kg of rule book, 2-3 codex, 1-2 imp armour and all that with me when i go to play someone.
30k is really the killer with that with the 3 heavy books and now 2 redbooks. Having them in digi would be great to have for the saving of my poor back, as well as the risk of if you get mugged the 3 books to replace would be £200.


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## bitsandkits

I agree there are alot of illegal down loading of codex, but I don't think reducing the price would make one bit of difference to the overall sales figures, most people who down load like that, are not going to suddenly stop and buy a codex because it has become cheaper,if GW halved the price of the codex books tomorrow the most likely scenario would be that the bloke who was gonna spend £30 on a book will just buy two and the bloke who was gonna down load it does so anyway and feels less remorse because the products perceived value is now half of what it was, people justify essentially criminal activity such as buying counterfeit models from China because they consider GW prices as too high, if that's the bench mark to break the law then realistically GW can't possibly consider reducing the price in the hope people will buy more.


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## mayegelt

I am unsure with the price vs pirate thing.
I actually think if the price was lower they would sell more, however as you said it would probably be people buying more books so maybe getting themselves army books for armies they dont own.
However i do think that some who steal the books would spend a small amount on the codex as it would be less of an army tax to buy it.
I did segest before some time ago that a loyalty system could work for digi copies of things. This would mean that if you got your digi copy of an army book for instance, when they then bring out the updated new edition of the book (so 8th edition or whatever) you should not have to pay as much as the likely chance is that 40% of the book is copy pasted from the previous one with the pictures, timeline, lore, descriptions.


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## humakt

From my own point of view I see no justification in buying pirated books or counterfeit models. Primarily its theft, but it also reduces profits for GW and in doing this could eventually lead to them going bust and the end of the game as we know it (far fetched but not unfeasible).

I get the impression from the thread that GW is hated for charging a similar price to other companies for their products. I don't count things like Bolt action as the mini's are just not the same quality. Digital codexes do seem a bit highly priced, but that's the same as e books all round. There is very rarely a significant drop from a hardback to a digital format book relating to price. A codex is still about the same price as an elite unit so not that great an expenses when it comes to an armys cost. Its still less than a PS4 or Xbox 1 game which will generally only be used for 12 months before the sequel replaces it.

As much as I hear on the web that people are leaving in droves, my gaming circle is very active and has not diminished that much, and the tournament scene in the South of the UK is still very active.


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## mayegelt

Dont get me started on xbox or ps4 games though (dating back many years of consoles). I still think console owners get ripped off for games. When you have to pay £50 for a game that 1 month later is on PC is £35 and then will likely go on sale on steam for 50% off. Then console players are getting it rough. Espesially as they are using a machine that is equal to an average gaming PC that is 4 years old.
The sad thing comes with the PC ports of console games that are deliberately left with crummy framerates and graphics, so the PC players dont get a better quality game (though assassins creed on ps4 is getting the sxrew job cos it cant be made to be better than the xbox version or xbox ppls will cry).

I think that is enough ranting about computer games from me...

I do agree though that model wise you often get what you pay for. Back in my day when i first started i could buy a pack of about 30 skeletons or 20 space marines or whatever and probably have only spent £10. I know in those 30 years there has been inflation and all that. However compare those models to the ones you get today when you get 10 models for £25. Though the quality of the old beaky mk6 ones was great at the time i am sure that a 3d printer could knock them out today at the same level of detail. But the current models are great (when they arent malformed or arrive in need of repair) and very few models from other companies come close.
That being sad i do like some of the old models more than the new ones. The 90s (i think) Daemonettes are so much better than the newer ones.


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## Sethis

mayegelt said:


> Dont get me started on xbox or ps4 games though (dating back many years of consoles). I still think console owners get ripped off for games. When you have to pay £50 for a game that 1 month later is on PC is £35 and then will likely go on sale on steam for 50% off. Then console players are getting it rough. Espesially as they are using a machine that is equal to an average gaming PC that is 4 years old.
> The sad thing comes with the PC ports of console games that are deliberately left with crummy framerates and graphics, so the PC players dont get a better quality game (though assassins creed on ps4 is getting the sxrew job cos it cant be made to be better than the xbox version or xbox ppls will cry).


Two words: Secondary Market.

You can buy a PC game a month later, for cheaper, and never sell it on. You cannot recover the money you spent on it, because every major release has DRM up to the eyeballs and account-bound codes for every publisher.

On the other hand you can buy a console game new for £50 and then sell it after completing it for £45 provided it's within the first month of release. If you don't have the initial investment, then just wait 2 months and watch the price halve on ebay/pre-owned stores. I haven't bought a game on release day since Deus Ex: Human Revolution and that was an aberration in itself. I just suck it up and buy them 6 months later, as you say, on Steam Sale for a fiver. Because I'm not compelled to spend money on the latest shiny thing.

However that is off topic, so never mind.


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## Submarine

bitsandkits said:


> GW have done loyalty cards before and recently offered a free product and a loyalty based offer for those using the online store when they revamped it and arguably they are directly discounting more products with the current trend of packaged together kits which offer serious savings, but the question wasn't about price, the reality of price is simple, unless you give something away for free you will always exclude a portion of the population, GW can only ever set it's prices at the level that will sustain the company,its not GWS place to make it more affordable it's up to the individual customer to choose to buy or not based on whether they feel it's value for money or not, you can have loads of money and feel GW is a rip off or you can have very little cash and still feel like GW should charge more or anything in between,ultimately if you want to play the games and own the minis you will find a way.


GW is a business and it has a profit margin. It is not selling its products at a price point that is needed to sustain its company, it is selling its products at a price to sustain their profit margin.

It also engages in cynical practices. For example moving buidling rules into a separate book that you have to buy along with the rulebook. 

Their price rises are well out of line with inflation and in some countries totally at odds with the exchange rate. Australians for example get a very harsh deal.

No one is suggesting that GW should sell its products for free but it behaves exactly like a company without a true competitor. If it had a clear rival in its market space you would quickly see prices fall.


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## Einherjar667

They put the building rules into the BRB (and people whined that they got folded in)

And this thread is about then changing, not their history as a company.


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## madcore

For me its the rules....their prices are ridiculous but I could live with it if they weren't so dumb with the rules..they just have no clue how to create a balanced game...

It.s a shame really. That factor alone makes me wonder if I should just stop playing...they obviously do not care about us, why should I give them my money.

And that's coming from a guys who as CSM, AM, DEAMONS, NECRONS and Eldar armies. I have not spent a single dollars on them in months and I am starting to think about selling some stuff.

I have always been a huge GW fan but i just got tired of being screwed. Their models are amazing, the best in the industry, just a shame their army balance suck.

They should go hire the rules writer over at privateer press. They would know what a balanced game looks like.


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## neferhet

Believe me or not, i actually enjoy the game because it is NOT balanced


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## ntaw

The recent books have been pretty balanced (and I'm a BA player with more Assault marines than Tactical), and what the Necron book looks like seems a lot nicer than the last one. Granted, I don't play the game to be overly competitive (though I do like winning of course). The whole atmosphere of the game is what draws me to it, and while there are sometimes hilariously angering oversights by the GW team it seem to me that only the people who care about winning more than playing seem to be upset about an 'unbalanced' game. There's 'overpowered' options all over the place, it's up to us to use or not use them and accept responsibility for what it does to the game for our opponents accordingly.

Ultimately you like it or you don't, but GW has stated they don't give a fuck about making a 'balanced' game.


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## jin

Here is what I think is going to happen with the new 30k/40k release:

The scarcity of some units and equipment will effectively change how armies are deployed.
GW will use scarcity in terms of the narrative to influence army compositions
in order to boost sales of unsold models, to open up new ranges, and also to cut down on the production pressure on old kits that people abuse like wave serpents, effectively reducing their numbers in any army to one for every three troops choices (or something to that effect) which will do two things 1 - sell more infantry which now on the table may not seem so useful and 2 - flood ebay with flash painted serpent spam as these idiots dump the good stuff to suck up whatever next expensive new card trick will win their thoughtless asses games (insert magic the gathering reference here).

just my read.

thoughts?

return to armies as collections representing narrative conditions will be a happy by-product as well...

if they do this right and push prices down 
and if this TPP which sux in every way imaginable makes GW able to ship privately anywhere for cheap,
then they might win both at the hobby and at the corporate level.
in which case, if you see indicators of this story playing out, buy stock i guess.
i will be buying an old used wave serpent - don't have one.


----------



## Vaz

Just saw this thread again. 

Think I summed it up perfectly before;


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Vaz said:


> Just saw this thread again.
> 
> Think I summed it up perfectly before;


Yep, they're still fucking it up. My hope is somehow FFG will get the rights and take over 40k and fantasy.


----------



## jin

Vaz said:


> Just saw this thread again.
> 
> Think I summed it up perfectly before;


great gif!

yes, the new face of GW.
i remember when gav thorpe was the kid.
perhaps it is true and the emperor lives,
only he must wait until the wolf riders of wallstreet
blow all their coke money and dump the sector in a panic.

then a kickstarter - "hobbyist union to save GW"!
open source everything to 3d printers
and manage everything through narrative
returning to outrider system endorsed 'live' local narrative tourneys 
as eventually this move to content engineering can translate into holograms and other far-off simulation tech (imagine 40k played like chess in episode 4 Star Wars for those old enough to remember that being cool)...

just saying.
this is a multigenerational game environment, or at least that was the mood when i was young.
old brothers and cousins taught the younger, gave some minis, got 'em started and then the next generation is recruited in and so on...
now, well, ... now.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Well considering I'm refusing to buy anything in relation to warhammer fantasy until they finally drop the bomb and present the reboot I think they are messing up rather than getting it right. Why would I buy something that may be useless in a month or two time. As for 40k it's a bit hit and miss, I think they missed some opportunities to introduce more to the necrons but then they introduce Harlequins as a separate force, yet they still haven't done anything with Sisters of Battle.


----------



## Nordicus

Words_of_Truth said:


> yet they still haven't done anything with Sisters of Battle.


I was wondering how long it would take before this argument came up again - It's been almost a week since someone complained about that army not being re-released.

I think they're on the right path personally - I'm excited for each Friday as new stuff comes out and the pace they have going currently is really nice. It always takes time to adjust to a new path, but I like their current agenda and if they keep improving then we should see some interesting results in the coming year or two.

As with everything, they don't get everything in the first try - But painting tutorials, news every week, package deals where you save money and a focus on getting more of the less known armies out there seems good to me. Not to mention the absolutely staggering quality of their new plastic minis.

I don't think about pricing in this hobby, as it has always (and will always be) a expensive hobby. I care enough about rules to see some irregularities, but I don't play tournaments so I don't care about that. As long as my games with my friends and my gaming group are fun, that's all I care about.


----------



## Uveron

Nordicus said:


> I think they're on the right path personally - I'm excited for each Friday as new stuff comes out and the pace they have going currently is really nice. It always takes time to adjust to a new path, but I like their current agenda and if they keep improving then we should see some interesting results in the coming year or two.
> 
> As with everything, they don't get everything in the first try - But painting tutorials, news every week, package deals where you save money and a focus on getting more of the less known armies out there seems good to me. Not to mention the absolutely staggering quality of their new plastic minis.
> 
> I don't think about pricing in this hobby, as it has always (and will always be) a expensive hobby. I care enough about rules to see some irregularities, but I don't play tournaments so I don't care about that. As long as my games with my friends and my gaming group are fun, that's all I care about.


I have to agree, the world is not a perfect place. But the Friday email from GW always makes me happy and when I am working the day-shift its the email I wait on all day, and when working nights its the first email I open up when still in bed at 4 in the afternoon. 

Sure it costs a bit, but not that much when compared to my other hobbies and I am still using (and re-using) alot of the stuff I brought in the 1990's. Unlike.. well anything I own.. 

GW is not Finally Getting it Right. Because the have been doing it Right since the 1980's.. My life is a happy place because of the product they sell.


----------



## bitsandkits

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think they missed some opportunities to introduce more to the necrons but then they introduce Harlequins as a separate force, yet they still haven't done anything with Sisters of Battle.


to be fair the necrons did get possibly the biggest 40k release of all time maybe only a close second to the dark eldar last time around, they really didnt need anything, and arguably the harlequins were lacking representation vs there popularity, as for sisters well, i suppose its a hard pill to swallow for the small number of fans that they dont have new minis, but sometimes you have to realize that sisters are not even as important as clowns in space, imagine that for a moment, your army isnt even important enough to warrant new stuff ahead of elves in leotards wearing multicoloured wigs.


----------



## Nordicus

bitsandkits said:


> imagine that for a moment, your army isnt even important enough to warrant new stuff ahead of elves in leotards wearing multicoloured wigs.


----------



## Matcap




----------



## Words_of_Truth

I was just using it as an example of hot hit and miss things are in regards to releases, I wasn't trying to provoke anything.


----------



## jin

The better quality of plastic miniatures is like the better quality of neurophenomenology -
both are directly due to advances in fundamental (materials) sciences. GW deserves no more credit for their plastic models than does a dentist for the spectacular tooth replacement he can image in his office and then order online. One must separate the horse form the horseman, here.

GW is like every other institution into which trust was placed and from which all the lifeblood has - in the course of my lifetime - been drawn.

These are the golems of ancient magic, armies of self-assembling selfish-genes.
And, all is laid to waste in their path...

Frankly, this is as immersive a game as is American football or FIFA.
As it has been ruined similarly, by a similarly especially predatory thread of humanity,
it is no mystery that they should proceed similarly - engolemed, now a machine pursuing nothing other than the self-serving satisfaction of its 'directors' and 'investors' - parasites.

Money, after all, is the key to undoing this mythos - fiat currency is more a fantasy than a Sister of Battle. I have known some Sisters, they were merely born too early. I have never seen paper money worth anything on its own. It takes a zombie or a trained animal to make that happen.

GW business minds may be marginal from mainstream neo-classical Keynesian-Friemanian neo-shylockism to recognize that long term and stability means caring for the earthen supports rather than the heavenly pleasures.

That being said, what in the 40k universe is more heavenly than Sisters of Battle and Inquisition vs. killer (elven) clowns in space?

The middle path, my friends...

Then again, see fabulous Dicaprio GIF, above, for reality check.


----------



## Einherjar667

I am with Uveron 4000%, and he's getting rep as soon as I get back to my computer tomorrow. I love what GW has been doing, Warhammer 40k saved me from one of the darkest periods in my life, it pulled me up from a toxic bout of prolonged depression and deep anxiety and I haven't fallen back into it since. I have a world to escape into, armies to mold with my imagination, skills to develope, releases to look forward to, worlds and adventures to read about, and like minded peers to interact with. 

I am a happier person today thanks to Warhammer.


----------



## jin

Einherjar667 said:


> I am with Uveron 4000%, and he's getting rep as soon as I get back to my computer tomorrow. I love what GW has been doing, Warhammer 40k saved me from one of the darkest periods in my life, it pulled me up from a toxic bout of prolonged depression and deep anxiety and I haven't fallen back into it since. I have a world to escape into, armies to mold with my imagination, skills to develope, releases to look forward to, worlds and adventures to read about, and like minded peers to interact with.
> 
> I am a happier person today thanks to Warhammer.


man I am with you completely.
this is my go to crafty space - i am not into fantasy football and other pure spectator sports trivia.
especially i enjoy the modeling and collecting and the theater and most of all
the most rewarding part of 40k is that people learn how to talk about the rules that govern their actions, and they learn to do it civilly, reasonably, openly, and discursively (rather than violently and directly).
people learn to use context to their advantage, to employ limited resources in the satisfaction of goals, and make the most of setbacks...
still, that is warhammer.
not GW.


----------



## Uveron

jin said:


> still, that is warhammer.
> not GW.


But that's the thing isn't it. Warhammer is GW.

For Warhammer to exist it requires Games Workshop. 

Now if you ignore the product that the create all you are left with is a Small Corporation.. Just read the first line of their Business model "We make things. We are a manufacturer. Not a retailer".. 

And that's the point, When you think that the games themselves are somehow Free without the intervention of GW, you will grow to hate GW. But its not We support GW in producing this stuff with what we buy, and how we spend our money has an impact on how the game changes. 

So sit back enjoy the ride and be happy in what we have because we have a hobbie that's played the world over.. all because of a small building in the east-midlands of Great Britain.


----------



## MidnightSun

I think the return of Throne of Skulls and Battle Brothers is a good step in the right direction; whether it had always been planned to make a comeback or whether it's a spontaneous thing now that WHW is improved, I don't know, but recognizing a desire for competitive 40k is great. 7th edition has supported that, I think; while some books (hai GK) have lost a lot from their 5th edition incarnations, it's not _that_ significant and I feel that the 7th edition books are much closer in relative 'power levels' to each other than books in 5th or more especially, 6th.


----------



## jin

Uveron said:


> But that's the thing isn't it. Warhammer is GW.
> 
> For Warhammer to exist it requires Games Workshop.
> 
> Now if you ignore the product that the create all you are left with is a Small Corporation.. Just read the first line of their Business model "We make things. We are a manufacturer. Not a retailer"..
> 
> And that's the point, When you think that the games themselves are somehow Free without the intervention of GW, you will grow to hate GW. But its not We support GW in producing this stuff with what we buy, and how we spend our money has an impact on how the game changes.
> 
> So sit back enjoy the ride and be happy in what we have because we have a hobbie that's played the world over.. all because of a small building in the east-midlands of Great Britain.


This is shyte.
There is no "small building in the east-midlands of Great Britain" that "makes things",
any more than there is paper money who buys a house.

Warhammer is a cooperative endeavor through which human beings voluntarily shape their lives,
develop skills, grow and learn and care for one another.
GW is - currently - a group of money-junkies who hawk prefab-CAD plastic through a marketing framework called a rules-system.

The difference between the money-junkies who run GW now,
and the partying metal head-set who put the who thing together,
is the difference between destruction and creation.

The business environment within the latter-day corporate financial neo-fascism 
that pervades our days as contemporary Western culture
encourages monetary success while creating nothing,
and GWs managers seem to act under this spell. 
They take "Warhammer" as a commodity,
to be pumped up and maxed out but eventually burnt down if it means more money for investors.
Max-minning the gains over an investor's period of interest means 
- in the previous decade - 
spectacular performance for capital 
and immediate capital kickbacks for management 
at the expense of the market, community or commodity in question. 
Fracking is a good example here - common corruption. 
Everyone (who doesn't live near a fracking well) gains. 
GMO crops are another (better) example.

Today's GW saw Warhammer as this grassy hillock, 
and went all factory farm monocultural Monsanto with the purging and the imbalance
trying to maximize their own returns 
but limited by their tiny brains.

Imagine the morning-after a GW COO's wet dream
- and we all see it coming - Titans in the clearance bin at Walmart.
That means peak saturation and volume and a crash into ...
other media, other stuff - space marine lunchboxes and yada.

The game, Warhammer, the community - all of this has nothing to do with GW.
Not these people, not in my opinion, and not anymore.
It is our hill.

At least, that is how things seem to me at the moment.
I hope that someone will tell me that I am wrong...


----------



## venomlust

I think that's a fair point, @jin. I didn't really think about it that way before, in terms of the community and experience between players being what makes the game so awesome. Of course it is obvious, but I don't really step back away from the hobby to analyze it so much as just dive in and experience it.


----------



## Einherjar667

I do believe that the hobby and the corp that facilitates it are very separate, but without GW, warhammer goes unsupported, and we know how that ends up.


----------



## jin

Einherjar667 said:


> I do believe that the hobby and the corp that facilitates it are very separate, but without GW, warhammer goes unsupported, and we know how that ends up.


Kickstarter gamers-union worker-owned cooperative with on-site 3d printing and narrative driven content sensitive to current events interpreted through the future mythology of unending conflict. Guest judges, better ideas and engineering... ends up like that.

Chopped 40k?


----------



## Einherjar667

More likely the IP would end up twisted and snagged in legal limbo for eternity as lawyers bicker and drag their feet and so on and so on. Legally, no one could touch warhammer as it would never EVER end up in Public Domain.


----------



## Kreuger

While I'm not necessarily endorsing @jin's rise of the gamer proletariat, I wanted to point out that at least in the USA this isn't true. 



Einherjar667 said:


> Legally, no one could touch warhammer as it would never EVER end up in Public Domain.


All IP, copyright, and patent eventually pass into the public domain (in the USA and most countries it takes about 70 years, but it can take up to 150 or so in others). The earliest incarnation of Mickey mouse for example is in the public domain now. It might take 100 years but eventually the Warhammer universe would be public property.


----------



## Einherjar667

Ok, so when we're 200 years old... Nevermind. Ugh.


----------



## Uveron

jin said:


> Kickstarter gamers-union worker-owned cooperative with on-site 3d printing and narrative driven content sensitive to current events interpreted through the future mythology of unending conflict. Guest judges, better ideas and engineering... ends up like that.
> 
> Chopped 40k?


No what would happen is we would have 100 small copy-cat games without the 'global support' it would break down and slowly the hobby would die. 


Anyway, not going to argue about it. I have said my peace. 



> GW is not Finally Getting it Right. Because the have been doing it Right since the 1980's.. My life is a happy place because of the product they sell.



Why they are doing it is another debate. And one I dont care to have.


----------



## jin

Uveron said:


> No what would happen is we would have 100 small copy-cat games without the 'global support' it would break down and slowly the hobby would die.
> 
> 
> Anyway, not going to argue about it. I have said my peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why they are doing it is another debate. And one I dont care to have.


Nah, man, you are missing the point.
We are the global support.
A million spin-off miniatures manufacturers are no threat to Warhammer,
but they may be to GW.
I collect GW miniatures and model them and paint them mostly out of nostalgia.
The rules system and the mythology are what hold the concepts and the agents (us) together in a coordinated fashion.
Current GW 'leadership' do not see this because they are blinded by material greed,
and so appeal to the lowest common denominator.
Now, we see this with the rise of the points shaving competitive gamer...
even the community is blinded and led along by a miniatures manufacturer to need new minis in order to keep up with a rules set which only serves to sell new minis and this cannot continue as the system will eventually become something else...
this is when GW will seem confused, sell off their miniatures manufacturing facilities or close them entirely, and say 'f-off' to the whole tabletop strategy genre.

Yeah, it'll get stuck in IP limbo for a century maybe, but the community may remain at large under a different not-for-profit non-corporate umbrella.
As far as I am concerned, it largely already does.

Which brings me back to my original post on this subject.
I am wondering if GW biz-heads have been able to pull their noses out of their money addiction
to see the long-term health and vibrancy of what had been and could remain a beautiful living thing
before they kill it dead and life takes root somewhere else.


----------



## Einherjar667

GW has seen some new leadership changes recently, and there has been an explosion of interesting products since.

Alas, i am not interested in keeping this up any further. I love Warhammer and am not a cynic when it comes to GW, i am quite happy, and well engaged.


----------



## Nordicus

Einherjar667 said:


> I love Warhammer and am not a cynic when it comes to GW, i am quite happy, and well engaged.


----------



## jin

Einherjar667 said:


> GW has seen some new leadership changes recently, and there has been an explosion of interesting products since.
> 
> Alas, i am not interested in keeping this up any further. I love Warhammer and am not a cynic when it comes to GW, i am quite happy, and well engaged.


well, i am not so engaged and not so up to date on GW leadership changes,
though I seem to remember something about that last year sometime...
anyways, i began in this thread hopeful for a smart gw,
and got reminded that the wolf of wallstreet guides that hand.

it seems that for all the ip battles and court related expenses,
the goodwill and loyalty is there - i mean, if you have that, not need for copyrightable name changes and so on.. just introduce the new name.
this stuff only becomes an issue when loyalty is already cracking-
people are critical of gw leadership for a reason.

i would like to be more engaged - but am geographically challenged.
now, i mostly read da webz, 
and maybe am colored by that hyperreality...


----------



## Uveron

jin said:


> it seems that for all the ip battles and court related expenses,
> the goodwill and loyalty is there - i mean, if you have that, not need for copyrightable name changes and so on.. just introduce the new name.
> this stuff only becomes an issue when loyalty is already cracking-
> people are critical of gw leadership for a reason.


They are not defending just the IP, they are makeing sure the game as we know it isnt stolen by someone who wants to make a quick but of money.. 

I dont get how you think GW is just after money and the 3rd party, and other manufactures somehow give away the stuff for free! GW for the most part is one of the best in the price to quality ration (I know some are better, but not many).. 

jin, Iam not sure what you do for a living.. but believe me when I say that in my book (and from company's that really do work for 'wallstreet'.. ) GW is a very bad investment and does only what it needs todo to keep a little additional investment flowing in. They do cater to the fans way before the Investors.


----------



## Doom wolf

Ok, as an old fan of the 40K 'verse, here he's what I have to say :

I dropped the game when I saw the price of the figs increased by 50% in less than two years. Then become 100% after 5 years with no real worthy excuses. Worse, I didn't seen any sign that things were getting better.

I still love the 40K universe, tought, and lately, I began to read some HH stuff, but what I saw in BL had me having some crazy tough.

I mean, here's an example, one of my favourite author, ADB writed an awesome novel, which is published in an anthology for 15.95 euro, with four other novels of various quality. (ranging to the meh to good.). Then, I went on the Black Library site, to see the same ADB novel sold for almost the same price but in an numerical format.

What. The. Heck ?

Considering that this format skip the price of the paper, the inking, and many other cost, it's just maddening to guessing what maddening economical tought presided over the publication politics of Black Library.

That the kind of stuff that leave just wandering about G.W. policies. They sold their figs as if they were made of gold or platinum, as if ecomonics didn't had crashed those ten last years. When they GW crashed and almost burn those last years, it didn't need any foresight or economical genius to saw that happening.


----------



## Uveron

Doom wolf said:


> I dropped the game when I saw the price of the figs increased by 50% in less than two years. Then become 100% after 5 years with no real worthy excuses. Worse, I didn't seen any sign that things were getting better.


Just look at the Oil price. 

Plastics are controlled by that.


----------



## jin

Uveron said:


> Just look at the Oil price.
> 
> Plastics are controlled by that.


ummm, no.
oil has almost never been cheaper than it is right now.


----------



## jin

Doom wolf said:


> Ok, as an old fan of the 40K 'verse, here he's what I have to say :
> 
> I dropped the game when I saw the price of the figs increased by 50% in less than two years. Then become 100% after 5 years with no real worthy excuses. Worse, I didn't seen any sign that things were getting better.
> 
> I still love the 40K universe, tought, and lately, I began to read some HH stuff, but what I saw in BL had me having some crazy tough.
> 
> I mean, here's an example, one of my favourite author, ADB writed an awesome novel, which is published in an anthology for 15.95 euro, with four other novels of various quality. (ranging to the meh to good.). Then, I went on the Black Library site, to see the same ADB novel sold for almost the same price but in an numerical format.
> 
> What. The. Heck ?
> 
> Considering that this format skip the price of the paper, the inking, and many other cost, it's just maddening to guessing what maddening economical tought presided over the publication politics of Black Library.
> 
> That the kind of stuff that leave just wandering about G.W. policies. They sold their figs as if they were made of gold or platinum, as if ecomonics didn't had crashed those ten last years. When they GW crashed and almost burn those last years, it didn't need any foresight or economical genius to saw that happening.


Exactly this. 
I read stuff online as my source of 40k info.
I read comments like this OFTEN!

Nobody near me plays warhammer - computer games are the rage in South korea.
Plus, the expense - some of the kids at the university have said exactly this...
I have asked some kids:
Have you ever heard of Warhammer?
They have said:
Oh, yeah. A friend of mine had like ten marines, and they were so expensive.

Why play 40k when you could have a killer gaming rig and do all sorts of stuff with it
FOR MUCH LESS MONEY?
(programming, even, porn is an option at that point, 
thousands of games and video titles...)

Why play Warhammer?
Why care about it?

Has nothing to do with a plastics manufacturer.


----------



## Einherjar667

jin said:


> ummm, no.
> oil has almost never been cheaper than it is right now.


Uh...... really? ........


........


----------



## venomlust

Qualified with "almost," so I guess that gives about ten miles worth of wiggle room.


----------



## Einherjar667

venomlust said:


> Qualified with "almost," so I guess that gives about ten miles worth of wiggle room.


Even at their current rates, the price is still insanely high. Are we really at that point where we consider the current oil rates "cheap" or anything remotely so?

Seriously, this thread is fucked, I'm absolutely done here.


----------



## venomlust

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## jin

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-low-can-oil-prices-go-2015-1?op=1

not new information - part of the war on bric economies...

oils is down to levels not seen since 2009 and anticipated to go to 20$ a barrel 
as the western economies slow to a grinding neo-dark ages halt...


----------



## jin

anyone who thinks that big oil is doing its damnedest to deliver cheap gasoline to Joe Public's Tahoe (with no passengers) probably believes that men walked on the moon in 1969...


----------



## jin

madcore said:


> For me its the rules....their prices are ridiculous but I could live with it if they weren't so dumb with the rules..they just have no clue how to create a balanced game...
> 
> It.s a shame really. That factor alone makes me wonder if I should just stop playing...they obviously do not care about us, why should I give them my money.
> 
> And that's coming from a guys who as CSM, AM, DEAMONS, NECRONS and Eldar armies. I have not spent a single dollars on them in months and I am starting to think about selling some stuff.
> 
> I have always been a huge GW fan but i just got tired of being screwed. Their models are amazing, the best in the industry, just a shame their army balance suck.
> 
> They should go hire the rules writer over at privateer press. They would know what a balanced game looks like.


this


----------



## jin

mayegelt said:


> Mixed bag for me. I do like the new models. For the last few years the standard of the models has gone up and up. Partially due to competition and also just natural standard increasing over time.
> 
> What I am not a fan of is various forms of 'player tax' that seems to have been brought in. I do understand that GW needs to make money, but buying a codex is ok, but then having to buy the supplement codex to get the most out of the codex you bought is not. ...
> 
> 
> HOWEVER I do not like the format of the recent codexes. Having the compiled list at the end that had all the models in brief with their pts values and the names of what rules affected them was great. The new one forces you to either use something like Battlescribe or endlessly flick back and forth in the book when planning an army. I much preferred being able to see all the units that classed as X over the space of 2-3 pages. Though I do understand in part why GW did it. Some of the reason I have been told was because of copy write law. In that for publications for gaming and hobbies you are allowed to photocopy (or digitise) X% of a book for personal use (X depending on country). Because of this people used to copy the last 20pages of so what had all the stats and costs of each of the units, and then the reference at the end tended to have most of the special rules and weapons. GW of course didn't like this because people could bring in those 20pages with them without really needing to have bought a copy of the book (but claiming they had).
> 
> ...


this was an excellent assay as well of the situation confronting us all imo...

fukkin stuff up simply to make it difficult for people to scan usable rules easily is perverse.
that is big oil ethics... ick.


----------



## jin

iamtheeviltwin said:


> ...
> The only thing I am really missing is the sort of "wild west" feel of their specialist games line, like Warhammer Quest and Bloodbowl. However, they seem to be trying to scratch that itch through third parties via Digital Products and Fantasy Flight.


skirmish level games and epic scale i.e. gothic integration of product lines would be ideal... and doable, with consistent and balanced rules within a narrative context permitting fine-tuning.
absolutely...


----------



## jin

Vaz said:


> Nope.
> 
> I hate playing with tonka toys and pay to win mechanics, where choosing x-new unit wins you games. I could understand making cool rules to make cool new models sell, but that units such as Heldrakes, Nagash, Stormpotatoes, Wraithknights, Superheavies, Riptides, etc are necessary to win (or at least effectively counter those that opponents have, and essentially codex creep is really annoying.
> 
> Continually escalating prices which do not match inflation, and utter ridiculous business positions and choices do not equate to a particularly well enjoyed game. I am yet to pay for a book since 7th edition BRB and it will continue to go that way. I am sick of being penalised by an inability to learn from their own mistakes, and having charges for their legal bills and lost profits from pirating applied to my own purchases.


when i started on this thread, this comment perhaps had been most influential.

with my original post, i suppose i was trying to counter with a (im)possibility,
that there is some benign plan being set in motion by the wizards of industry that lead GW...
still, i hope that this hope is confirmed and the cynicism proven senseless...


----------



## Uveron

jin said:


> ummm, no.
> oil has almost never been cheaper than it is right now.


No its 5 year Average price which is the price that controls materials.. That is at an all time high 

And with the Price of oil set to be back above 100 in the next year or so... its Avge price is not going to drop. 

Trust me. This is my Day-Job.


----------



## Uveron

jin said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/how-low-can-oil-prices-go-2015-1?op=1
> 
> not new information - part of the war on bric economies...
> 
> oils is down to levels not seen since 2009 and anticipated to go to 20$ a barrel
> as the western economies slow to a grinding neo-dark ages halt...


You talk like the 2009 price was low for a long period of time? For it to affect the price of plastics you need a few years of reaction time for the market to adjust, and that's not going to happen. 

Not when the Price is going back up... Again trust me I spend more time thinking about this stuff than 40K. (I or I should be)


----------



## Moonschwine

bitsandkits said:


> I was wondering how people feel GW are doing, a few years ago they seem to had got flack for everything they did, but lately it feels as though they have turned a corner or at least done enough to silence the critics or maybe the community got sick of the whining ?
> 
> So have they got better?


Have they got better?

Hmm, an Interesting question really. I wouldn't say they have gotten "better" at what they do since they are and remain (largely) industry leaders so theirs never been a sense of rush or urgency to "make it better", but I do however think with 7th Edition they have given themselves a bit of direction and really helped settle (to a degree) the age old argument of "Balance vs Bullshit." Basically declaring unbound and a "do what makes you happy" approach really helped show the door to the harsher critics / balance purists; who tended to be more of the "squeaky wheels" as it was - and, realistically, there are so many games on the market that these hardcore folk have become someone elses problem where as say 5-10 years ago there wasn't really anywhere else to go. 

I've always leant on the "Balance is better" side of things and I've taken a Hiatus from the game this past year and a bit - basically since 6th Ed Eldar came out and then 7th Edition was rumoured I did not really put alot of interest into the activities of GW. From an outsider coming back into the hobby I can flat out tell you that GW are doing the modelling / campaign aspect damn right from a design point of view - End times was probably the only real thing I took half an interest in, that and Orcs (40k). That Bloodangels side-box was also a great thing to look at.

However, GW still suffers alot of faults its just unable to, or doesn't want, deal with. Rules are officially half-way out the window when they are made up, it's quite clear on a few new units that "unit cost: function intended" are still not taken into account (eg: Taurox) and so you get hideously mismatched unit costs to the functions they perform - okay I get it's "what we feel" approach, but once a product is rolled out, you get Zero support for it afterward until your codex comes rolling around four years later and you pray to god that they went back and did something. So product support wise GW pumps out good stuff, but once it's out there, good luck having them revisit it to tweak / keep relevant that squad if something else comes along that just flips the bird to them in the next released Armies Codex.This then feeds into netlisting which only makes the problem worse, then GW caveat out of dealing with the issue because "hey, it's beer and pretzels yo". 

Financially, prices are now eye-wrenchingly high - game sustainability is always thrown around forums alot, but I think we've reached a turning point with GW prices. Alot of new players are, put simply, offered far too many more "as good as" and cheaper luxury hobbies: especially with things like Kickstater or digital alternatives (Dawn of War, Spacemarine + MODS) and I can't see how the blue-shirts in stores are getting the numbers put out with the way this is going - convincing a mum that she should buy a box of super-human fascists is a hard sell. Saying that to play with these dudes requires a good £150 investment for literature and dice is probably near impossible outside Christmas. One thing GW are doing well however is putting content out there for better or worse. Before there were justified grumblings that GW would release a product, go quiet and you were left feeling they were just milking it for what it was worth - especially when you'd get things appearing in 2 issues of White Dwarf Monthly. Now, not so much because there's always something new around the corner and WD has become a "If this is interesting to you buy it" kind of mag-rag. 

Overall I'd say GW have gone from a C-grade company who were basically bending it's customers over for a quick-win cash wise to a B- grade company who have a bit of direction but still have a long way to go before they "do it right". Hopefully though this is some kind of genius business plan I can't see.


----------



## Achaylus72

bitsandkits said:


> I was wondering how people feel GW are doing, a few years ago they seem to had got flack for everything they did, but lately it feels as though they have turned a corner or at least done enough to silence the critics or maybe the community got sick of the whining ?
> 
> So have they got better?


Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.

GW had a report that states that the two figures quoted are unrecoverable. In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years. Nagash was the pointer to this, that's why they are killing off Fantasy in 2017 not 2019 as previously predicted.

Better far from it, the silly buggers have doomed the company to bankruptcy.:laugh:


----------



## bitsandkits

Achaylus72 said:


> Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.
> 
> GW had a report that states that the two figures quoted are unrecoverable. In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years. Nagash was the pointer to this, that's why they are killing off Fantasy in 2017 not 2019 as previously predicted.
> 
> Better far from it, the silly buggers have doomed the company to bankruptcy.:laugh:


source ?


----------



## Nordicus

bitsandkits said:


> source ?


Who needs sources - This is the internet!


----------



## MidnightSun

nordicus said:


> who needs sources - this is the internet!


qft.


----------



## Uveron

Achaylus72 said:


> In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years.


You have said this is quite a few places. 

Can we have a source..

(and you saying it in another place doesn't count, this isn't fox-news)


----------



## Haskanael

Achaylus72 said:


> Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.
> 
> GW had a report that states that the two figures quoted are unrecoverable. In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years. Nagash was the pointer to this, that's why they are killing off Fantasy in 2017 not 2019 as previously predicted.
> 
> Better far from it, the silly buggers have doomed the company to bankruptcy.:laugh:


source or it didn't happen.


----------



## venomlust

Achaylus72 said:


> Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.


How do you quantify a unique customer per week? Are we talking purchases and extrapolating that into customers? Are we using registered accounts used to order products on the website? Not being a smartass for once. I don't know much about economics, so I wonder how one could possibly figure that out.


----------



## Moonschwine

Achaylus72 said:


> Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.
> 
> GW had a report that states that the two figures quoted are unrecoverable. In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years. Nagash was the pointer to this, that's why they are killing off Fantasy in 2017 not 2019 as previously predicted.
> 
> Better far from it, the silly buggers have doomed the company to bankruptcy.:laugh:


Would need a source on all this. But certainly interesting to see how it plays out for the coming 2 years - If Fantasy is truly on the chopping block I'm sort of sad to see it go but then again the rumour mill has everything from "The End times are the end of WHFB" to "This is the final wave goodbye to the 'Legions and Formations' style of WHFB to a more Skirmish-level like setting." With Hobbit officially a "Dead" franchise now that the films have been and gone, thats just going to fade off shelves leaving a nice slot for the predicted "WHFB Skirmish" level of things.

As far as total bankruptcy - Frankly if GAME can get a bailout in the UK then GW can as well. Let alone the digital rights it can give out - the manufacturing Infrastructure is frankly too much to let go to rot and you'll have big interest from firms like Hasbro/Wizards/Wizkids, and there's always been the rumour that Blizzard/GW have patched things up and Warcraft the Miniatures Game will come in effectively milking the last drops of the fetid undead zombie franchise that Warcraft has become.


----------



## Tawa

*Le Sigh.....*


----------



## Einherjar667

Achaylus72 said:


> Currently they are losing net 5,000 customers per four week period globally that's 65,000 customers per annum and since 2012 they have lost globally 169,000. Also adding to their misery they are losing 1.12 Million Pounds per four week period adding the two previous reports they are expecting to lose 39+ Million Pounds from 2012/13 to 2014/15 does not bode well for a company the just junked its fived plan and now looks "To the foreseeable future", less than 3 years.
> 
> GW had a report that states that the two figures quoted are unrecoverable. In short GW is going bankrupt and within 3 years. Nagash was the pointer to this, that's why they are killing off Fantasy in 2017 not 2019 as previously predicted.
> 
> Better far from it, the silly buggers have doomed the company to bankruptcy.:laugh:


How do you know ANY of this?

edit: I must say, all of this sounds like lies and bullshit.


----------



## Achaylus72

I promised the source I'd never reveal them, and I stick to my promises.


----------



## Einherjar667

Eye roll.


----------



## Achaylus72

Moonschwine said:


> Would need a source on all this. But certainly interesting to see how it plays out for the coming 2 years - If Fantasy is truly on the chopping block I'm sort of sad to see it go but then again the rumour mill has everything from "The End times are the end of WHFB" to "This is the final wave goodbye to the 'Legions and Formations' style of WHFB to a more Skirmish-level like setting." With Hobbit officially a "Dead" franchise now that the films have been and gone, thats just going to fade off shelves leaving a nice slot for the predicted "WHFB Skirmish" level of things.
> 
> As far as total bankruptcy - Frankly if GAME can get a bailout in the UK then GW can as well. Let alone the digital rights it can give out - the manufacturing Infrastructure is frankly too much to let go to rot and you'll have big interest from firms like Hasbro/Wizards/Wizkids, and there's always been the rumour that Blizzard/GW have patched things up and Warcraft the Miniatures Game will come in effectively milking the last drops of the fetid undead zombie franchise that Warcraft has become.


Most of what to me at least sounds fair call. But you see that is what ended up killing Lord of the Rings and had a bad effect on The Hobbit, and that was turning a large scale battle game into skirmish level. Jervis Johnson, Matthew Ward and others copped hate for that but it wasn't their decision, it came from the Board of Execs, due to their decision to repackage LoTR from 20/24 figure boxed sets to 10/12 figure boxed sets. That cost a lot of fans. Leading them to walk from the hobby.

The problem is that the Board of Execs have dictated this crap shit decision again, but they have no choice on the matter, if what is expected (the rumour) that up to half of all models in the Fantasy line will get the chop. Hell even in my own area more than 100 Fantasy players have switched to D&D and sold their armies. People are walking away and in there 1000's, if you don't believe my source then there is nothing I can do about that is there.

If we are all confused at what is going on, that is the fault of GW with its no communications policy.


----------



## Einherjar667

I will agree that GW not communicating with customers is fucking WEIRD, and moronic. Management there needs to change, and fast


----------



## Einherjar667

What sources? I don't have any sources. If I could not back up what I was posting, I would not post it at all.


----------



## Achaylus72

I am going back to see GW annual reports from 2010 to 2014 to check up if my source is correct, should have at least checked out their info for myself, I blame myself for being lazy and not checking this out for myself.

Here is what I found based on full yearly reports

29th May 2011 had a total 123,052,000 pounds starting base
3rd June 2012 had a total sales of 131,009,000 pounds = 7,957,000 pounds profit
2nd June 2013 had a total sales of 134,597,000 pounds = 3,588,000 pounds profit
1st June 2014 had a total sales of 123,501,000 pounds = 11,096,000 pounds loss

Make of that of what you will


----------



## Achaylus72

Einherjar667 said:


> What sources? I don't have any sources. If I could not back up what I was posting, I would not post it at all.


Sorry about that, I apologise.


----------



## ntaw

venomlust said:


> How do you quantify a unique customer per week?


At the franchise I used to be operations manager for we had store clerks click a counter for every person through the door. They were all one/two staff at a time stores so it was relatively easy to get an idea of people through the door vs. sales processed. Given the almost identical nature of those stores to GW in terms of selling a niche market product, there's never really so many people through the door that a employee can't readily keep a tab with a clicker. Handy info for those who care.


----------



## bitsandkits

Achaylus72 said:


> I am going back to see GW annual reports from 2010 to 2014 to check up if my source is correct, should have at least checked out their info for myself, I blame myself for being lazy and not checking this out for myself.
> 
> Here is what I found based on full yearly reports
> 
> 29th May 2011 had a total 123,052,000 pounds starting base(no such thing as starting base, this is the turn over of the company)
> 3rd June 2012 had a total sales of 131,009,000 pounds = 7,957,000 pounds profit(not profit,increase in sales from previous year)
> 2nd June 2013 had a total sales of 134,597,000 pounds = 3,588,000 pounds profit(not profit,increase in sales from previous year)
> 1st June 2014 had a total sales of 123,501,000 pounds = 11,096,000 pounds loss(not loss,decrease in sales from previous year, still higher than in 2011)
> 
> Make of that of what you will it means despite your best try, *sales* for the past three years have actually increased


well i make it made up bollocks ,operating profit for that period was £12.3 million
here is the pdf page 2 shows profits
http://investor.games-workshop.com/2014/07/29/annual-report-2013-14/

how many times do we have to tell you annual sales has nothing to do with profit, turn over/total sales is not important unless its more than your cost of sales meaning you make a actual loss, if you sell more than it cost to make the sales you are in profit, the only thing GW are guilty of is a drop in sales, but they still made a profit , 12million in profit, which to make a serious point ,they made more money in profit than almost all the wargame companies combined made in sales last year(excluding the other big two).

every year you try to make out that GW is 10 second from bankrupcy and every year it has to be pointed out to you they are not, also worth pointing out that even if GW posted an actual loss of profits for a couple of years, they have likely built up a pot of cash or at least have the goodwill of the banks and investors because of the way they do business to get aid to weather the storm,plus they dont have debts, debts are what brings around bankruptcy,been unable to pay the people who have lent you money or been unable to pay your suppliers, if you are making a profit that isnt an issue as you are paying everyone and even have money left over.
i quote from page 9 "_Funding and liquidity risk
The Group pays for its operations entirely from our cash flow. As a precaution we sometimes have a small facility at the bank (just-in-case,
belt-and-braces, rainy days etc.). This year we arranged a short term bank loan of £5 million in case the continental european
reorganisation was more expensive than expected. It wasn’t. The loan was not needed. It still cost us £38,000 though." _
Do you realise how important this is, or more to the point how rare this is? they funded an entire years operation using its own sales, if nothing else it proves that the people steering the ship no how to run the business. 

anyway who dug this thread up ? i posted this months ago and the conversations was not about how they run the company, but are they giving customers the products they want at a rate they want them.
I have been shocked and shocked again at some of the releases, Harlequins was a total bolt out of the blue considering Eldar are not a great seller compared to other non imperial armies and i never thought in a million year i would see plastic Harlies, let alone two vehicles kits and an actual stand alone codex, and three clam pack plastic characters, if they had redone the troupe as a kit in plastic as an unit ally i would have been extremely pleased, everything else is really gravy, but it doesnt stop there, imperial knights, huge thumbs up for that model, apart from been totally amazing kit, again i never thought the day would come, and a blood angle tactical and terminator squad, arguably they didnt need the units as they dont differ much from the vanilla codex, but its really cool when your army has base units specific to you and not sharing them with other armies, then Nids they have an amazing array of models now, people keep banging on about the end of warhammer, yet we have seen probably the most significant shot in the arm for that game in 20 years with end times, but people seem to have taken the campaign title far too seriously and think its the nail in the coffin, nonsense, the models and book have been selling exceptionally well, nagash kit sold out twice!! ffs , this shows that with new models and a reason to play people will play and buy warhammer, and i have barely heard anyone mention the price of the models, the blood thirster is £70! and nobody has battered an eyelid, but they must have one!


----------



## bitsandkits

Einherjar667 said:


> I will agree that GW not communicating with customers is fucking WEIRD, and moronic. Management there needs to change, and fast


GW do communicate with there customers, thing is the communication happens in places other than on places like this, they communicate via email,magazines,website,youtube,events and most importantly in stores, people forget that apart from north America most GW sales come via the GW store chain, so that is the best place for GW to communicate with them, plus what would say to them if you had there ear? you could ask a 1000 different GW customers what do you want from GW and you would get a 1000 different answers and almost all of them would be stacked in the favour of the customer(lower prices,more stuff for my army,new codex/army book etc) and wouldnt take into account how to run a multimillion pound international wargames company.

the other thing is that customers very rarely communicate with GW and seem very reluctant to do so, they are far more likley to come to place like this and moan and bitch about something than they are to direct anything at the actual company, i have seen endless amounts of people complain on here about things GW customer service could sort out in a 2 minute phone call and we never needed to hear about it, its almost like the community expects someone from GW to pop around to there house , lay them down on a couch feed them grapes and whisper the questions about GW into there ears and feed back the answers direct to the board members.

i am currently following a protest that is happening today march 4th, various websites and facebook pages are asking people to pick up a sisters of battle model today as a positive protest(i dont know so dont ask) from the GW webstore in the hope that GW will sit up and take note that people are wanting sisters in plastic, the idea been that if they clear out the webstore hopefully GW will realize the demand is there, the purchases will then be followed up with people directly communicating with GW about the "protest" now plenty of people have said they will do it, and they movement has had plenty of critics, but the way i see it ,they are at least trying to do something and they are communicating with GW, will it have an effect? who knows, but doing nothing will definitely not have an effect either.


----------



## Achaylus72

bitsandkits said:


> well i make it made up bollocks ,operating profit for that period was £12.3 million
> here is the pdf page 2 shows profits
> http://investor.games-workshop.com/2014/07/29/annual-report-2013-14/
> 
> how many times do we have to tell you annual sales has nothing to do with profit, turn over/total sales is not important unless its more than your cost of sales meaning you make a actual loss, if you sell more than it cost to make the sales you are in profit, the only thing GW are guilty of is a drop in sales, but they still made a profit , 12million in profit, which to make a serious point ,they made more money in profit than almost all the wargame companies combined made in sales last year(excluding the other big two).
> 
> every year you try to make out that GW is 10 second from bankrupcy and every year it has to be pointed out to you they are not, also worth pointing out that even if GW posted an actual loss of profits for a couple of years, they have likely built up a pot of cash or at least have the goodwill of the banks and investors because of the way they do business to get aid to weather the storm,plus they dont have debts, debts are what brings around bankruptcy,been unable to pay the people who have lent you money or been unable to pay your suppliers, if you are making a profit that isnt an issue as you are paying everyone and even have money left over.
> i quote from page 9 "_Funding and liquidity risk_
> _The Group pays for its operations entirely from our cash flow. As a precaution we sometimes have a small facility at the bank (just-in-case,_
> _belt-and-braces, rainy days etc.). This year we arranged a short term bank loan of £5 million in case the continental european_
> _reorganisation was more expensive than expected. It wasn’t. The loan was not needed. It still cost us £38,000 though." _
> Do you realise how important this is, or more to the point how rare this is? they funded an entire years operation using its own sales, if nothing else it proves that the people steering the ship no how to run the business.
> 
> anyway who dug this thread up ? i posted this months ago and the conversations was not about how they run the company, but are they giving customers the products they want at a rate they want them.
> I have been shocked and shocked again at some of the releases, Harlequins was a total bolt out of the blue considering Eldar are not a great seller compared to other non imperial armies and i never thought in a million year i would see plastic Harlies, let alone two vehicles kits and an actual stand alone codex, and three clam pack plastic characters, if they had redone the troupe as a kit in plastic as an unit ally i would have been extremely pleased, everything else is really gravy, but it doesnt stop there, imperial knights, huge thumbs up for that model, apart from been totally amazing kit, again i never thought the day would come, and a blood angle tactical and terminator squad, arguably they didnt need the units as they dont differ much from the vanilla codex, but its really cool when your army has base units specific to you and not sharing them with other armies, then Nids they have an amazing array of models now, people keep banging on about the end of warhammer, yet we have seen probably the most significant shot in the arm for that game in 20 years with end times, but people seem to have taken the campaign title far too seriously and think its the nail in the coffin, nonsense, the models and book have been selling exceptionally well, nagash kit sold out twice!! ffs , this shows that with new models and a reason to play people will play and buy warhammer, and i have barely heard anyone mention the price of the models, the blood thirster is £70! and nobody has battered an eyelid, but they must have one!


 
Yeah what ever. An 11.096 pound sales decrease is of no concern for you.:good:


----------



## Bindi Baji

When you factor in the new price head count; per kilo (not ton) of model strength plastics and the new ergonomic shift into better produced manufacturing tools as well as capita from one man stores and the roll out of improved speed codexes and updates, 
it's quite clear that we can all join in, in making up facts


----------



## Kreuger

Bindi Baji said:


> ...it's quite clear that we can all join in, in making up facts


By this you mean lies, damned lies, statistics, and GW business statistics?


----------



## bitsandkits

Achaylus72 said:


> bitsandkits said:
> 
> 
> 
> well i make it made up bollocks ,operating profit for that period was £12.3 million
> here is the pdf page 2 shows profits
> http://investor.games-workshop.com/2014/07/29/annual-report-2013-14/
> 
> how many times do we have to tell you annual sales has nothing to do with profit, turn over/total sales is not important unless its more than your cost of sales meaning you make a actual loss, if you sell more than it cost to make the sales you are in profit, the only thing GW are guilty of is a drop in sales, but they still made a profit , 12million in profit, which to make a serious point ,they made more money in profit than almost all the wargame companies combined made in sales last year(excluding the other big two).
> 
> every year you try to make out that GW is 10 second from bankrupcy and every year it has to be pointed out to you they are not, also worth pointing out that even if GW posted an actual loss of profits for a couple of years, they have likely built up a pot of cash or at least have the goodwill of the banks and investors because of the way they do business to get aid to weather the storm,plus they dont have debts, debts are what brings around bankruptcy,been unable to pay the people who have lent you money or been unable to pay your suppliers, if you are making a profit that isnt an issue as you are paying everyone and even have money left over.
> i quote from page 9 "_Funding and liquidity risk_
> _The Group pays for its operations entirely from our cash flow. As a precaution we sometimes have a small facility at the bank (just-in-case,_
> _belt-and-braces, rainy days etc.). This year we arranged a short term bank loan of £5 million in case the continental european_
> _reorganisation was more expensive than expected. It wasn?t. The loan was not needed. It still cost us £38,000 though." _
> Do you realise how important this is, or more to the point how rare this is? they funded an entire years operation using its own sales, if nothing else it proves that the people steering the ship no how to run the business.
> 
> anyway who dug this thread up ? i posted this months ago and the conversations was not about how they run the company, but are they giving customers the products they want at a rate they want them.
> I have been shocked and shocked again at some of the releases, Harlequins was a total bolt out of the blue considering Eldar are not a great seller compared to other non imperial armies and i never thought in a million year i would see plastic Harlies, let alone two vehicles kits and an actual stand alone codex, and three clam pack plastic characters, if they had redone the troupe as a kit in plastic as an unit ally i would have been extremely pleased, everything else is really gravy, but it doesnt stop there, imperial knights, huge thumbs up for that model, apart from been totally amazing kit, again i never thought the day would come, and a blood angle tactical and terminator squad, arguably they didnt need the units as they dont differ much from the vanilla codex, but its really cool when your army has base units specific to you and not sharing them with other armies, then Nids they have an amazing array of models now, people keep banging on about the end of warhammer, yet we have seen probably the most significant shot in the arm for that game in 20 years with end times, but people seem to have taken the campaign title far too seriously and think its the nail in the coffin, nonsense, the models and book have been selling exceptionally well, nagash kit sold out twice!! ffs , this shows that with new models and a reason to play people will play and buy warhammer, and i have barely heard anyone mention the price of the models, the blood thirster is £70! and nobody has battered an eyelid, but they must have one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah what ever. An 11.096 pound sales decrease is of no concern for you.
Click to expand...

I never said it wasnt,i was just pointing out your numbers were made up bollocks, it would be great to see GW enjoying multi million pound increase in sales ....aslong they were also profitable too, GWs sales may hav declined but that's not the same as putting the nails in its coffin.


----------



## scscofield

Don't bother arguing with him Bits, he comes here every year ranting about that subject as you pointed out.

I love what GW has done in terms of pushing rules updates and new product out. My only real gripe/wish is that I feel they should make the rules freely available like other companies do. A general price reduction would be nice also.

Game wise though, as I said the output has been great. It also seems like the power creep of 5th has been fairly toned down and balanced at this point. There is still some over powered combos out there but they have made a decent effort to make each army playable on the casual level.


----------



## Bindi Baji

kreuger said:


> by this you mean lies, damned lies, statistics, and gw business statistics?


----------



## fatmantis

is gw getting it right?? yes...people complained they dont get regular books,models etc etc
gw dont listen blah blah..
if gw isnt listening then why are we getting so many cool new things??
as for balance if this game was balanced it would be boring..
but the thing that annoys me the most about the balance argument is you CAN balance the game YOURSELF...write your own campaigns create the game style..
In my store i have had to create a teird level of gaming because people just cant cope with the vast amount of choices they now have..so they blame GW.
so now when they ask for a game they simply state the point and the level of game they wish to play..and then wait for a reply..it has it pros and cons..but so far its working..
so stop the bitching and be pro-active and play the game you want.
Also this is a hobby so either enjoy..or STFU!..cause quite frankly reading the same pathetically boring whinnying is just pointless.
Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!


----------



## Einherjar667

fatmantis said:


> is gw getting it right?? yes...people complained they dont get regular books,models etc etc
> 
> gw dont listen blah blah..
> 
> if gw isnt listening then why are we getting so many cool new things??
> 
> as for balance if this game was balanced it would be boring..
> 
> but the thing that annoys me the most about the balance argument is you CAN balance the game YOURSELF...write your own campaigns create the game style..
> 
> In my store i have had to create a teird level of gaming because people just cant cope with the vast amount of choices they now have..so they blame GW.
> 
> so now when they ask for a game they simply state the point and the level of game they wish to play..and then wait for a reply..it has it pros and cons..but so far its working..
> 
> so stop the bitching and be pro-active and play the game you want.
> 
> Also this is a hobby so either enjoy..or STFU!..cause quite frankly reading the same pathetically boring whinnying is just pointless.
> 
> Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!



I like this post, a lot. Thank you.


----------



## Pssyche

Ploughing through this thread this morning, I couldn't help but be reminded of Dennis the Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune Peasant from Monty Python and the Holy Grail each and every time I read a post by Jin.

http://Monty Python- The Annoying Peasant: http://youtu.be/rAaWvVFERVA


----------



## bitsandkits

scscofield said:


> Don't bother arguing with him Bits, he comes here every year ranting about that subject as you pointed out.


good point, sorry.


----------



## Doom wolf

fatmantis said:


> Also this is a hobby so either enjoy..or STFU!..cause quite frankly reading the same pathetically boring whinnying is just pointless.
> Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!


Oh, yeah, I just love this argument : 

We should be thankful to be screwed by upper management who doesn't really care about anything more than the money in our wallet, because people get soooo baaad in other country.

I guess that by those same standard, these peoples who can't afford to eat should be thankful because, hey ! they have sunny and hot weather all day long !

Flawed logic, if you ask me.

There's a saying where I live who say, "_Who like well, punish as well_". It means that even if you like something, there's no reason to not point out where there's flaws and abuse in what you like.


----------



## fatmantis

Doom wolf said:


> Oh, yeah, I just love this argument :
> 
> We should be thankful to be screwed by upper management who doesn't really care about anything more than the money in our wallet, because people get soooo baaad in other country.
> 
> I guess that by those same standard, these peoples who can't afford to eat should be thankful because, hey ! they have sunny and hot weather all day long !
> 
> Flawed logic, if you ask me.
> 
> There's a saying where I live who say, "_Who like well, punish as well_". It means that even if you like something, there's no reason to not point out where there's flaws and abuse in what you like.


flawed??? how? because i point out that people are complaining about the cost of a piece of plastic?? when other people cant afford the basics? yea massively flawed:nono:....its all about perspective mate...if its to expensive dont buy it simple..stop complaining..dont buy it


----------



## bitsandkits

Doom wolf said:


> There's a saying where I live who say, "_Who like well, punish as well_". It means that even if you like something, there's no reason to not point out where there's flaws and abuse in what you like.


this doesnt make any sense


----------



## Doom wolf

fatmantis said:


> flawed??? how? because i point out that people are complaining about the cost of a piece of plastic?? when other people cant afford the basics? yea massively flawed:nono:....its all about perspective mate...if its to expensive dont buy it simple..stop complaining..dont buy it


Aaah, I was waiting for this one...:so_happy:

"_If you don't like it, don't buy it !_", it sounds too much like "_If you don't like it, leave it !_" to me. 

Not to say, that GW was last I heard of them, GW was trying to buy the terms "Space Marines" ? Heh ? They're pushing way too much, my friend. 

The core of the problem is that _I like_ WH40K, but I'm not liking the way they are heading now.

It's worth to complain as much as it's worth to stop buying. If I stop Buying, I kill the franchise, but if I complain too, maybe someone will hear and they try to change before it's too late... because the one who kill the game will get away with the money, and will leave nothing in their wake.


----------



## bitsandkits

Doom wolf said:


> Aaah, I was waiting for this one...:so_happy:
> 
> "_If you don't like it, don't buy it !_", it sounds too much like "_If you don't like it, leave it !_" to me.
> 
> Not to say, that GW was last I heard of them, GW was trying to buy the terms "Space Marines" ? Heh ? They're pushing way too much, my friend.
> 
> The core of the problem is that _I like_ WH40K, but I'm not liking the way they are heading now.
> 
> It's worth to complain as much as it's worth to stop buying. If I stop Buying, I kill the franchise, but if I complain too, maybe someone will hear and they try to change before it's too late... because the one who kill the game will get away with the money, and will leave nothing in their wake.


you seems to have returned to 40k a very jaded person, dont like it dont buy is almost exactly like dont buy it leave it, i not really sure what your point is with that one, the facts are nobody is forcing anyone to buy or play gws products, you have total free will, some people play without paying, some people pay and never play and some people pay and enjoy every second of the hobby and never ever give any thought to what the board of directors is doing with the company, its a hobby, i tend to find that those who treat it like one, tend to enjoy it far more than those think that by buying a model from GW they some how have an entitlement to an opinion of how the company should be best run.

GW have never tried to buy the term space marine, thats utter nonsense and its very silly of you to believe it, GW have trademarked the term in some territories in some mediums which they are perfectly okay to do so, it is however a very generic term and in some cases the trademarks dont stand up to scrutiny, and because of that we are likley to see the term adeptus astartes sneak into usage far more as the days move on, but always remember that GW have created a successful company and amazing gaming universes that requireS protection, and no more so than in recent years, For 25 years nobody batted an eyelid at what GW was doing, then the world economy tanks, people start looking for ways to make a little extra money, some semi talented people decide they can make minis and decide rather than starting up there own little companies and creating new universes it far quicker just to jump on the GW band wagon and use GWs IP and ideas. So is it really pushing it too much?

You say you like 40k but not the way its heading? this makes no sense really, do you mean the rules? the fluff?the models ? cant be the models surely? the models are by far some of the best models ever made for 40k, so what is it?

i agree you should complain, but what are you complaining about? and doing it hear is fruitless, but if your willing to complain(to the correct people) please be open minded enough to accept that your complaint may be invalid simply because it could just be based on your opinion.


----------



## Doom wolf

bitsandkits said:


> You say you like 40k but not the way its heading? this makes no sense really, do you mean the rules? the fluff?the models ? cant be the models surely? the models are by far some of the best models ever made for 40k, so what is it?
> 
> i agree you should complain, but what are you complaining about? and doing it hear is fruitless, but if your willing to complain(to the correct people) please be open minded enough to accept that your complaint may be invalid simply because it could just be based on your opinion.



Jaded ? Heck, no !

The OP wanted to have an opinion if GW was doing right, I was just giving him my own. It just happen that I think they aren't doing right.


Now, the post who _really_ pushed my berserk button was the one who said that we had to be grateful to have this hobby, whatever the price it demanded to us in money because some people in some poor world can't afford to buy themselves a meal.

It's smack me as an attempt to play on our inner culpability as an excuse to not critisize the economical politics of G.W. and accept whatever move they do to make more money.

Back earlier in the thread, you will find my first post here :

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171698&page=10

You made a point with the space marines trademark, but to me, you lost one with the "_total free will_" argument. I don't believe in "_total free will_" anyway. People make choice according to their capability, their mean and environnement, that doesn't stop them to feel frustration and anger when they know that the consequence of the self-fulfilling wish can be dire...

And truth is, yes, I can't afford this hobby because of it's prices of the mini. I'm not dirt poor, but I must make choice, and I've said it earlier, the price of the models just skyrocketing insanely for no reason at best, or outright lie at worse. 

(I still laugh when I remember the one about a fantastic new material that accompanied the price rising of 20 or 25%... )

Oh yeah, and the Squat, I loved the Squat too... :laugh:


----------



## Kreuger

@bitsandkits - per your original post, I doubt the fan base will ever really be done complaining. It does seem like GW might be producing things more in line with what the consumer generally speaking wants. 

My guess would be that following the production of Dark Vengeance GW managed to revise their development pipe-line in a number of ways to streamline the design and production process in plastics. Working on this assumption it looks like they are able to bring new spiffy models to market. I would also hazard that this is the core of their business strategy "keep the consumer interested and excited." All of that is basically good. I think the remaining problem is, and will likely remain the cost.

The cost of the product _seems _astronomical. Considering GW is selling primarily plastic miniatures . . a few examples: 5 plastic Skullreaper models for $57.00 or any of the plastic terminators at 5 models for $50.00, the space marine tactical squad at 10 models for $40.00. 

A lot of these are well designed and very cool, but has the production cost of plastic models really outstripped inflation so far? As far as I can tell the Khorne Berzerker box is right about inline with inflation at $37.25 for 12 Berzerkers, or 3.10 per model. And these are comparatively dated now. There's certainly an argument to be made for additional parts in these sets and the cost for producing them, but the costs seems to have much more to do with points value or number available in an army, or necessary e.g. the $30.00 plastic space marine captain. 

That just seems like foolishness to me. 

I'm sure there's an analyst somewhere looking at the purchase curve for models related to the number the army requires compared to the cost and they figured out about how far they can push it, but clearly a $30 Space marine captain is absurd compared to a $3.10 Berserker or even a $10.00 Skullreaper.

Other than the cost factors which I think will always be a sticking point, and where GW will always be willing to push juuuust a little harder I'd say they are doing a better job.

The stater sets are better than they ever have been. The models are beautiful and comparatively still a great deal. The books have only gotten better over the last 4 editions. Ironically, in my opinion, they have improved as they have gotten closer to 2nd edition again (now if they'd only dump AP value and return to save modifiers!). The book rule books though have gotten better. 3rd ed's was awful; ugly, hard to use, a poorly bound. Each iteration there after improved until they even added an index! 6th was a nice book but the rules needed tuning and balancing. And as I understand 7th ed sop far the new books are well made. GW listened that people wanted to split the rules from the other sections of the BRB and made the new version Rules, Hobby, and History.

And finally it seems like they are making moves towards enlivening the fluff of the world. It has been largely static for some 15 (or more) years and that represented a problem. Forge World and Black libaray branched backwards into 30k and GW will continue pushing the central stories of 40k and Fantasy battle forward. Hopefully there is enough movement to keep everyone interested and engaged.

*TL;DR*

Cost is, was, and will remain a problem.
Otherwise the game has been tightened and improved since the debacle of the 3rd edition rewrite and the cost of business (petroleum/plastics) appears to be decreasing so the future looks bright!


----------



## Moonschwine

fatmantis said:


> Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!


Then they should stop buying GW stuff.


----------



## Einherjar667

Kreuger said:


> @bitsandkits - per your original post, I doubt the fan base will ever really be done complaining. It does seem like GW might be producing things more in line with what the consumer generally speaking wants.
> 
> My guess would be that following the production of Dark Vengeance GW managed to revise their development pipe-line in a number of ways to streamline the design and production process in plastics. Working on this assumption it looks like they are able to bring new spiffy models to market. I would also hazard that this is the core of their business strategy "keep the consumer interested and excited." All of that is basically good. I think the remaining problem is, and will likely remain the cost.
> 
> The cost of the product _seems _astronomical. Considering GW is selling primarily plastic miniatures . . a few examples: 5 plastic Skullreaper models for $57.00 or any of the plastic terminators at 5 models for $50.00, the space marine tactical squad at 10 models for $40.00.
> 
> A lot of these are well designed and very cool, but has the production cost of plastic models really outstripped inflation so far? As far as I can tell the Khorne Berzerker box is right about inline with inflation at $37.25 for 12 Berzerkers, or 3.10 per model. And these are comparatively dated now. There's certainly an argument to be made for additional parts in these sets and the cost for producing them, but the costs seems to have much more to do with points value or number available in an army, or necessary e.g. the $30.00 plastic space marine captain.
> 
> That just seems like foolishness to me.
> 
> I'm sure there's an analyst somewhere looking at the purchase curve for models related to the number the army requires compared to the cost and they figured out about how far they can push it, but clearly a $30 Space marine captain is absurd compared to a $3.10 Berserker or even a $10.00 Skullreaper.
> 
> Other than the cost factors which I think will always be a sticking point, and where GW will always be willing to push juuuust a little harder I'd say they are doing a better job.
> 
> The stater sets are better than they ever have been. The models are beautiful and comparatively still a great deal. The books have only gotten better over the last 4 editions. Ironically, in my opinion, they have improved as they have gotten closer to 2nd edition again (now if they'd only dump AP value and return to save modifiers!). The book rule books though have gotten better. 3rd ed's was awful; ugly, hard to use, a poorly bound. Each iteration there after improved until they even added an index! 6th was a nice book but the rules needed tuning and balancing. And as I understand 7th ed sop far the new books are well made. GW listened that people wanted to split the rules from the other sections of the BRB and made the new version Rules, Hobby, and History.
> 
> And finally it seems like they are making moves towards enlivening the fluff of the world. It has been largely static for some 15 (or more) years and that represented a problem. Forge World and Black libaray branched backwards into 30k and GW will continue pushing the central stories of 40k and Fantasy battle forward. Hopefully there is enough movement to keep everyone interested and engaged.
> 
> *TL;DR*
> 
> Cost is, was, and will remain a problem.
> Otherwise the game has been tightened and improved since the debacle of the 3rd edition rewrite and the cost of business (petroleum/plastics) appears to be decreasing so the future looks bright!



This post is well thought out. Definetly speaks a lot of truth to the philosophy behind what GW is getting at. Just posting to say i agree.


----------



## Vaz

fatmantis said:


> is gw getting it right?? yes...people complained they dont get regular books,models etc etc
> gw dont listen blah blah..
> if gw isnt listening then why are we getting so many cool new things??
> as for balance if this game was balanced it would be boring..
> but the thing that annoys me the most about the balance argument is you CAN balance the game YOURSELF...write your own campaigns create the game style..
> In my store i have had to create a teird level of gaming because people just cant cope with the vast amount of choices they now have..so they blame GW.
> so now when they ask for a game they simply state the point and the level of game they wish to play..and then wait for a reply..it has it pros and cons..but so far its working..
> so stop the bitching and be pro-active and play the game you want.
> Also this is a hobby so either enjoy..or STFU!..cause quite frankly reading the same pathetically boring whinnying is just pointless.
> Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!


Get in the bin with that attitude. Just because some third world shit hole can't afford them by their circumstances means that those who are in position to rinse us of our hard earned money by providing sub standard shit.

Lets put it another way. You earn the money to buy a model, which you can supposedly paint with however you want. However, you're instead given a pile of still hot cow shit. By all accounts, you should be happy and grateful for that pile of faeces, because there are other people worse off?

Are you also saying that you can never be happy with anything because other people have been happier? I seriously fucking doubt it. 

The best thing GW did with 7th edition was allow the mixing and matching of forces with the way the detachment and formations worked without going into Unbound territory. Not only could they produce "hot fixes" or "patches" in the form of supplements while encouraging the sales of things like White Dwarf, but they allowed people to field things like Ravenwing without being limited to the PoS rules in Dark Angels but still take some Dark Angel things. 

Allies is meant to be utilised. I don't think that's because of intentional design however, but because they're tacitly holding their hands up saying "we don't have a fucking clue how to make our rules balanced, and so we're going to let you lot work it out and have your global meta's introduce balances and counters".

Put that into the corporate bullshit translator that's "you mugs are still buying our products, and now you're paying us even more to patch it!"

I don't think that's doing it right.


----------



## Moonschwine

Vaz said:


> Get in the bin with that attitude. Just because some third world shit hole can't afford them by their circumstances means that those who are in position to rinse us of our hard earned money by providing sub standard shit.
> 
> Lets put it another way. You earn the money to buy a model, which you can supposedly paint with however you want. However, you're instead given a pile of still hot cow shit. By all accounts, you should be happy and grateful for that pile of faeces, because there are other people worse off?
> 
> Are you also saying that you can never be happy with anything because other people have been happier? I seriously fucking doubt it.
> 
> The best thing GW did with 7th edition was allow the mixing and matching of forces with the way the detachment and formations worked without going into Unbound territory. Not only could they produce "hot fixes" or "patches" in the form of supplements while encouraging the sales of things like White Dwarf, but they allowed people to field things like Ravenwing without being limited to the PoS rules in Dark Angels but still take some Dark Angel things.
> 
> Allies is meant to be utilised. I don't think that's because of intentional design however, but because they're tacitly holding their hands up saying "we don't have a fucking clue how to make our rules balanced, and so we're going to let you lot work it out and have your global meta's introduce balances and counters".
> 
> Put that into the corporate bullshit translator that's "you mugs are still buying our products, and now you're paying us even more to patch it!"
> 
> I don't think that's doing it right.


Pretty much this. 

Luxury hobby or not, there's alot of investment into the game which goes unappreciated. You just need to look at any Golden Daemon or read any half-baked fan fiction to see the level of love some people put into it.

What gets me everytime though is that rather than use the near endless ideas and manpower of the community, GW insist on driving their "vision" into the ground - just look at the crap thats puked out with the Digital IP nowadays - literally one of the most indepth fantasy settings on the market today is being turned into a poormans 3D Angry Birds. I would, hand on heart, honestly be surprised if at things like Gamesday (or Hamfest or whatever its called now) one of the top questions wasn't about rules balancing or "why the hell are you doing this?". 

Even if they just threw something out in a White Dwarf and said "Go test this idea, leave feedback on this webpage here" and forced you to sign up to their site so they could market more stuff to you, people would feel alot happier - look at Forgeworld. They sheer tinkering they do to units is mind boggling, and you get alpha/beta/greenlight rules. I hate sounding negative but alot of "challenger" games to 40k and what not thrive on community feedback - do they listen to it all? No, but nearly every other game out there I know players say the same thing over and thats they feel like they are helping make the game rather than just being spoonfed often game breaking decisions.


----------



## ntaw

Moonschwine said:


> Even if they just threw something out in a White Dwarf and said "Go test this idea, leave feedback on this webpage here"


:laugh: GW doing market research AND testing their ideas AND offering an open forum for opinion?

I want what you've got brother! Must be a blast :smoke:


----------



## fatmantis

ntaw said:


> :laugh: GW doing market research AND testing their ideas AND offering an open forum for opinion?
> 
> I want what you've got brother! Must be a blast :smoke:


its a shame that gw cant do this. and why cant they do this..well just look at most of the threads here..if people could put forth their complaints in a manner that was not childish..spoilt or just whinny and whinge we might be able to have such a re-pore with gw..but alas..that will never ever EVER happen..


----------



## ntaw

fatmantis said:


> and why cant they do this.


They don't do it because they take all our money regardless. Forget all your passive aggressive name calling to the members of this forum involved in this thread, it's about dollars and has nothing to do with our 



fatmantis said:


> childish..spoilt or just whinny and whinge


complaints about this company that we still support despite its misgivings. Get off your high horse, buddy.

Also, I was joking when I posted that. Fuck I need to get the orange text colour back out...

EDIT: and it's rapport.


----------



## Fallen

fatmantis said:


> its a shame that gw cant do this. and why cant they do this..well just look at most of the threads here..if people could put forth their complaints in a manner that was not childish.


GW doesn't because they decide not to, not because they can't. And that is effectively their motto with anything that is still stupidly wrong in the BRB or codexs (example Plasma Pistol costing 15 points STILL), which is my main gripe against them.

It shouldn't be too hard to state 

"this is how you play the game, without anything 'cool' added" aka vanilla 40k/unbound 40k *** See more
"how to play the game, with superheavies/super monstrous creatues"
"how to play the game with allies"
"how to play the game with formations"
"how to play the game with a combination of the above"

***
^ THIS PART needs to be practically perfect. The community can fix minor bugs/OP-ness/UP-ness of units or rules, and be fairly competent and universal everywhere. We can't fix, together as one, huge issues. Because this area (the main game) is where there are what seems to be 1,000,000-ish issues that are solved with "roll a die".

This area also must be as clear cut so that one can easily figure out what the fuck happens when a player batch rolls saves when his unit has multiple armor saves, as an example, without having to argue and result back to "roll a die".

----

I love GW's models...I just wish that the core mechanics were not so unbalanced between game play (shooty vs assault) and did not have such a grayness to them for certain aspects.


----------



## fatmantis

ntaw said:


> They don't do it because they take all our money regardless. Forget all your passive aggressive name calling to the members of this forum involved in this thread, it's about dollars and has nothing to do with our
> 
> 
> 
> complaints about this company that we still support despite its misgivings. Get off your high horse, buddy.
> 
> Also, I was joking when I posted that. Fuck I need to get the orange text colour back out...
> 
> EDIT: and it's rapport.


firstly i was agreeing with you.. and secondly i haven't "name called" anybody..just stating a fact,,when you read a lot of these comments its just how some of it comes across..thirdly im on no high horse..it really is so simple..not happy dont buy..why should the rest of us be bombarded with thread after thread of people spitting the dummy over GW business practice? its just the way it is..and probably how it will be..get on with life and be happy..be happy you can afford(or not) to participate in such a luxurious hobby..its a hobby..if you have to complain sooo much then this is not the hobby for you(not speaking to you..generalizing) really is that simple.

and sorry for a spelling mistake(s)..(whos on their high horse?)


----------



## Kreuger

@fatmantis - I think you're being rather hyperbolic. GW "can't" do this not because we are all so childish and entitled but because the fan/consumer community is so invested in the world. GW are in a very difficult position. All along they have encouraged players to purchase the models, paint, convert, sculpt, and design their own background. All of this engages the creativity and passions of the fans/consumers. 

Here's the tricky part of all this, when people invest that sort of time and effort into something they feel like they own part of it. You can think of this as "creative sweat equity." And this puts GW in a very difficult spot because on the one hand the fans are very invested in the world and their experience of the world and on the other GW have a business to run. 

GW developed their business on the personal investment of their consumer community, but that community doesn't exist in a vacuum and has expectations of what the game is, was, and should be. Necessarily, some of those people will be disappointed with any changes, some will like the changes, and others regardless of like or dislike will be priced out of the hobby. With any new development that means you have quite a number of people who feel excluded from a hobby they feel very personally that they own. 
All of those people will continue to have valid opinions, but it will always be difficult to get a clear read on such a polarized and emotionally invested group.


----------



## fatmantis

Kreuger said:


> @fatmantis - I think you're being rather hyperbolic. GW "can't" do this not because we are all so childish and entitled but because the fan/consumer community is so invested in the world. GW are in a very difficult position. All along they have encouraged players to purchase the models, paint, convert, sculpt, and design their own background. All of this engages the creativity and passions of the fans/consumers.
> 
> Here's the tricky part of all this, when people invest that sort of time and effort into something they feel like they own part of it. You can think of this as "creative sweat equity." And this puts GW in a very difficult spot because on the one hand the fans are very invested in the world and their experience of the world and on the other GW have a business to run.
> 
> GW developed their business on the personal investment of their consumer community, but that community doesn't exist in a vacuum and has expectations of what the game is, was, and should be. Necessarily, some of those people will be disappointed with any changes, some will like the changes, and others regardless of like or dislike will be priced out of the hobby. With any new development that means you have quite a number of people who feel excluded from a hobby they feel very personally that they own.
> All of those people will continue to have valid opinions, but it will always be difficult to get a clear read on such a polarized and emotionally invested group.


well said..my point is that if people could present their complaints/opinions in a clear professional manner would they sit up and take notice? probably not..but when people complain and moan they way they do will that help any? definitely not.
The thing that people need to understand is GW is not a games company..yes there will be soooo many arguments to this..but at the end of the day they are a miniature company..the game is an excuse to buy more models..its all about perspective if you just look at this from a games point your always going to be unhappy..oh this is unfair etc etc.but if you look at it from the models perspective and getting to use these amazing models in a fun way then youll hopefully be happy as youll remember why you love painting etc. i hope that makes sense.
as ntaw said they take your money regardless..so its as you said a personal investment..either be happy with your investment or not.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

fatmantis said:


> well said..my point is that if people could present their complaints/opinions in a clear professional manner would they sit up and take notice? probably not..but when people complain and moan they way they do will that help any? definitely not.
> The thing that people need to understand is GW is not a games company..yes there will be soooo many arguments to this..but at the end of the day they are a miniature company..the game is an excuse to buy more models..its all about perspective if you just look at this from a games point your always going to be unhappy..oh this is unfair etc etc.but if you look at it from the models perspective and getting to use these amazing models in a fun way then youll hopefully be happy as youll remember why you love painting etc. i hope that makes sense.
> as ntaw said they take your money regardless..so its as you said a personal investment..either be happy with your investment or not.


Sorry, but that's a pretty lame excuse. Whether GW is a games or miniature company is irrelevant; the fact is they sell their rules for a price. It would be different if the 40k rules were something GW made available for free, however that's not the case. The 40k rules are a product that GW sells to us, they don't get to make and sell a substandard product without copping a bit of flak for it. They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.

Also I find it hilarious that you're blaming the "childish..spoilt or just whinny" fans. Of all the other game systems I play, I am yet to see any of them suffer from the utter vitriol that is directed at GW. Don't get me wrong, there are still little complaints and nitpicks, but nothing compared to what GW faces. Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset? 

In summary; I disagree.


----------



## fatmantis

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Sorry, but that's a pretty lame excuse. Whether GW is a games or miniature company is irrelevant; the fact is they sell their rules for a price. It would be different if the 40k rules were something GW made available for free, however that's not the case. The 40k rules are a product that GW sells to us, they don't get to make and sell a substandard product without copping a bit of flak for it. They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.
> 
> Also I find it hilarious that you're blaming the "childish..spoilt or just whinny" fans. Of all the other game systems I play, I am yet to see any of them suffer from the utter vitriol that is directed at GW. Don't get me wrong, there are still little complaints and nitpicks, but nothing compared to what GW faces. Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset?
> 
> In summary; I disagree.


its not an excuse its their company statement..


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## Bindi Baji

'Et's kicked the bucket, 'et's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!

THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!


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## Fallen

Just because it is their statement Fatmantis, does not mean that it is not an excuse as well.

"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

fatmantis said:


> its not an excuse its their company statement..


It's irrelevant. If they don't wanna spend the time and resources to play-test and balance the game rules, then they shouldn't charge obscene prices for them.

EDIT:



Fallen said:


> Just because it is their statement Fatmantis, does not mean that it is not an excuse as well.
> 
> "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi


Ninja'd, Well said. You gave a great example earlier in the thread. The fact that GW *still* hasn't corrected the cost of plasma pistols after like 10 years just demonstrates how little they actually care about game balance, and how disconnected they are from their fan-base. I've seen and heard that complaint mentioned hundreds of times over the years, across various forums, blogs and stores.


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## ntaw

fatmantis said:


> and sorry for a spelling mistake(s)..(whos on their high horse?)


I couldn't help it man, you spelled rapport as re-pore.

I should be glad this hobby exists...of course I fucking am! Otherwise what the hell would I bitch about?!!?!? :laugh: Guilt trip: failed.

@Fallen, brilliant use of Obi-Wan's wisdom.


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## Tawa

Play nice kids. Let's leave out the sniping and get back to the topic at hand.


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## Kreuger

I like this analysis because it doesn't subscribe to the 'evil empire' view. 


ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> ...They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.


And it holds up under Hanlon's razor:


Hanlon's Razor said:


> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.





ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> ...Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset?


To be fair, GW have made mistakes but they have also worked to correct a number of the more glaring ones. I don't know how many of our community (and in this thread) played during second edition and then during 3rd or 4th. GW made a drastic change from 2nd edition to 3rd where they realigned their target audience, and shifted it from young adults and mature adults to children around 10 years of age. Consequently, the background and models were sanitized as much as possible and the complexity of the game was _Greatly _reduced. 

This definitely alienated a number of people, myself included. I've played Chaos space marines and daemons since about 1993. Where the hell is Chaos in a sanitized 40K setting? They're cartoon villains twirling their mustaches while poor maidens are lashed to the train tracks. GW purportedly had a heck of a time trying to figure out what to do with Chaos. Daemons of violence, corruption, and debauchery won't ever be appropriate for 10 year olds. I recall hearing the Keeper of secrets went through something like 10 or more iterations before they settled on the ugly, stupid one during 3rd ed. 

I'm happy to say that over the last several editions GW have moved firmly in the direction of a more mature setting. I'm guessing the younger demographic didn't generate the sales GW were hoping for. And of course those young gamers, if they stick to it, end up wanting a more interesting, complex, and compelling setting. Chaos is no longer sanitized for children and the rules are once more getting increasingly complex with many more army specific special rules.

Just a historical note, at the time of the reduction from 2nd ed to 3rd ed, 2nd edition was very complex. There were rules scattered all over the place, the original rules, expansion sets, codices, White Dwarfs, Citadel Journals, etc. It was necessary to devote a great deal of time to knowing and keeping up with all of it. For example, the boxed game had the only rule books; Dark Millennium had all the psychics, the wargear cards, the mission cards, the strategy cards (also known as tragedy cards because a few were quite imbalanced), and there were more of all of these things released periodically in White Dwarf and through the codices. I know, I ran open gaming in FLGS at the time.

What GW _should _have done, I think, was to edit things down and re-release all of the core pieces in a more streamlined edition, not scrap the whole thing and start over. I know all of that sounds like a long complaint, and it IS but the point here is that GW have been steadily listening the fanbase who wanted a more mature and complex game. Unlike 2nd ed GW now has all sorts of digital tools to help produce new content data-slates, etc. to expand the game in ways that don't leave people out (e.g. if you missed the WD with the new strategy cards you were SOL for several years there after). 

To @Fallen's point and @ChaosRedCorsairLord's, I think GW should probably have a digital access code in each rulebook. Once you buy the core book you have access to a live (searchable) version of the core rules including all the errata and fixes. Actually, there should probably be 2 versions, the _Chapter Approved_ official one and the beta-test version along with a response survey to let people respond more or less in real time to changes being piloted.

My suspicion is that GW wouldn't do something like this because managing that sort of historical change with a limited team would be incredibly tough. Not that other industries don't do it, but it's tough. And I think they would consider their development money better spent creating new and revised content for sale (e.g. new codices) than paying people to constantly tweak/revise the existing rules. 

But there's always hope!

I guess the next realistic question would be, "Would you feel that the high and sometimes strange cost of the models would be justified if GW were to spend the time to monitor the metagame and constantly rebalance the rules?"

If the answer is a resounding "YES!" then perhaps a case can be made to GW to do that because it would positively affect the bottom line and demonstrate a different kind of investment in the opinions of the players.


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## Doom wolf

Respect Kreuger !

That was a constructive post !

When I think about it, after the ever rising price, the rules where an aspect that I found disappointing in the third edition, and the sanitized aspect too.

In term of rules, I began with the 2nd edition, and trough the third to the fourth, it was feeling like an endless downward spiral. Things seemed to get better afterward, and when I found out about sixth and seventh edition, I was beginning wondering how many times will pass before they reinstate all the rules of the 2nd.


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## bitsandkits

Doom wolf said:


> Jaded ? Heck, no !
> 
> The OP wanted to have an opinion if GW was doing right, I was just giving him my own. It just happen that I think they aren't doing right.
> 
> 
> Now, the post who _really_ pushed my berserk button was the one who said that we had to be grateful to have this hobby, whatever the price it demanded to us in money because some people in some poor world can't afford to buy themselves a meal.
> 
> It's smack me as an attempt to play on our inner culpability as an excuse to not critisize the economical politics of G.W. and accept whatever move they do to make more money.
> 
> Back earlier in the thread, you will find my first post here :
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171698&page=10
> 
> You made a point with the space marines trademark, but to me, you lost one with the "_total free will_" argument. I don't believe in "_total free will_" anyway. People make choice according to their capability, their mean and environnement, that doesn't stop them to feel frustration and anger when they know that the consequence of the self-fulfilling wish can be dire...
> 
> And truth is, yes, I can't afford this hobby because of it's prices of the mini. I'm not dirt poor, but I must make choice, and I've said it earlier, the price of the models just skyrocketing insanely for no reason at best, or outright lie at worse.
> 
> (I still laugh when I remember the one about a fantastic new material that accompanied the price rising of 20 or 25%... )
> 
> Oh yeah, and the Squat, I loved the Squat too... :laugh:


why would you take up a hobby that you cant afford and then complain about the prices???

The prices GW set are not by accident, they are a publicly traded company and every year they post there results and they make very little in profit, they are not banking huge amounts of money and they are not doing anything that any other business out there doesnt do, they are producing models people want , the models are by far the best quality plastic models on the market, they have a vast and diverse range of armies in two settings giving you massive scope and make it easy to find an army for you and if you want to play for fun you can build and collect an army that is tottally unique to you.
You keep banging on about price rises, GW havent had a price rise on models already in the range for almost 3 years, granted some of the newer models have some hefty price tags, such as the new blood thirster , but when you compare the size of the model, the level of detail, the level of customisation and the sheer awesomeness factor it doesnt seem that expensive, its certainly far cheaper than the forgeworld version which it can almost see eye to eye with. Its also got a lot to compete with, the blood thirster is essentially a very generic deamon, based on tolkiens balrog/the Devil/ fire elemental, there are loads of third party versions and GW has released at least 2 versions in the past which despite common sense are still game legal, so this new Blood thirster has to compete for peoples money with all of the previous releases and third parties, this drives the price up further because the potential market is smaller.

but anyway, if you think GW is getting it wrong because of the prices thats your opinion


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## bitsandkits

Doom wolf said:


> Respect Kreuger !
> 
> That was a constructive post !
> 
> When I think about it, after the ever rising price, the rules where an aspect that I found disappointing in the third edition, and the sanitized aspect too.
> 
> In term of rules, I began with the 2nd edition, and trough the third to the fourth, it was feeling like an endless downward spiral. Things seemed to get better afterward, and when I found out about sixth and seventh edition, I was beginning wondering how many times will pass before they reinstate all the rules of the 2nd.


they will never return to second edition rules, the second edition rules worked so well because it was a far simpler game back then, vehicles were almost non existent, flyers didnt exists, it was a small skirmish game using mostly infantry and had fewer armies and a much smaller number of available units, the game has expanded to include a huge variety of of things people wanted including, people look back at these times when they were younger with nostalgia and rose tinted glasses,we cant go back, the rules are what they are, and the rules back then had problems too,there were broken units and loop holes and things that could be exploited and im sure if we looked hard enough there are in other wargames, hell i have been playing FFGs Game of thrones board game second edition and its broken to shit, i still love every single minute of it that i have played despite Baratheon winning every game.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

bitsandkits said:


> hell i have been playing FFGs Game of thrones board game second edition and its broken to shit, i still love every single minute of it that i have played despite Baratheon winning every game.


Sorry to nitpick, but that's just wrong. Game of thrones is a self balancing game. As soon as one player starts doing well you're all just supposed to gang up on them until they're not doing well. Calling GoT 'broken' is like saying Munchkin isn't balanced. 

Give the Dance of Dragons expansion a go. The Tyrells start off literally on the brink of victory, and I've still only seen them win a single game; even after 10+ games.


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## Haskanael

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> As soon as one player starts doing well you're all just supposed to gang up on them until they're not doing well.


this is literally my friend group in any 3+ player board game. especially the strategy ones.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Haskanael said:


> this is literally my friend group in any 3+ player board game. especially the strategy ones.


You should see our group play Munchkin. The box says it's a 30-45 minute game, and we make it into a 4-5 hour game, and we all hate each other by the end.


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## bitsandkits

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Sorry to nitpick, but that's just wrong. Game of thrones is a self balancing game. As soon as one player starts doing well you're all just supposed to gang up on them until they're not doing well. Calling GoT 'broken' is like saying Munchkin isn't balanced.
> 
> Give the Dance of Dragons expansion a go. The Tyrells start off literally on the brink of victory, and I've still only seen them win a single game; even after 10+ games.


it isnt wrong, its fact, we have played the game many times, different players for each house and evey standard game baratheon won, regardless of which player was using them, it wasnt a matter of whos "doing well", not to mention its a well documented by loads of players, check the forums, the game is flawed. 
i think i have the dance of dragons will give it a go, we have swapped to feast of crows as its much better balanced and we are getting different houses winning each game.


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## Haskanael

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> You should see our group play Munchkin. The box says it's a 30-45 minute game, and we make it into a 4-5 hour game, and we all hate each other by the end.


this is why we have the rule "what happens in the game, stays in the game" hehe :laugh:

but to add my two cents to the discussion, big companies will always make a shitload of mistakes according to their "fans" look at almost every gaming forum... then again Forums tend to be
full of the loud minority.

I realy just about everything 40K related GW has brought in over the past year alone, the only issue I have is that I cant keep up anymore XD


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

bitsandkits said:


> it isnt wrong, its fact, we have played the game many times, different players for each house and evey standard game baratheon won, regardless of which player was using them, it wasnt a matter of whos "doing well", not to mention its a well documented by loads of players, check the forums, the game is flawed.
> i think i have the dance of dragons will give it a go, we have swapped to feast of crows as its much better balanced and we are getting different houses winning each game.


You're telling me you think the base GoT is 'broken', but the Feast for Crows expansion is balanced? What are you smoking and where can I get some? 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## bitsandkits

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> You're telling me you think the base GoT is 'broken', but the Feast for Crows expansion is balanced? What are you smoking and where can I get some?
> 
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


well i dont smoke if that helps, but yes thats what im saying, if anything though this illustrates the point, your experience of the game differs significantly to mine and the players i play with, dont get me wrong we have enjoyed playing, but after numerous games thats the conclusions we came to, like i was saying about 2nd edition 40k some people hold it up as the holy grail, others dont. 

I always think of GW like a summer block buster movie, It rolls up with a really enjoyable movie that makes loads of cash at the box office, loads of people go see it, they buy the pop corn and cokes and t shirts and sound tracks, the film might have some plot holes, the odd wooden performance, but for the most part people enjoy it and are glad they saw it , but it gets panned by the critics and ignored by the Award crowds at Oscar time.


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## Doom wolf

bitsandkits said:


> why would you take up a hobby that you cant afford and then complain about the prices???


Because, dear bitsandkits, when I took up the hobby, almost twenty years ago, I was able to afford it.

Then the price got higher. And Higher. And HIGHER. :shok:

And I just wasn't able to keep in the hobby. Here's why I complained. I was just flushed out YEARS ago and now, I couldn't get in even if I wanted to.

Your alternative seem legit to me, but now, I haven't played a game for a long time, because a lack of player in my neighborhood, lack of time, life happening and all that, and I've limited myself to read some BL publication, but as I said in my earlier post even their prices politics was getting weirder and weirder.


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## Kreuger

bitsandkits said:


> ...like i was saying about 2nd edition 40k some people hold it up as the holy grail, others dont.


Hey Bits, I don't think 2nd ed was the holy grail it's just the version I played the most and knew the best. And it was far better than the edition that replaced it. I remember exactly how awkward and unbalanced some of it was. 

My comparison was mostly about the target age group and the kiddification of 3rd ed. 

I think GW have, by and large, done a good job balancing the new game and source books for a more mature audience again.


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## fatmantis

Kreuger said:


> I think GW have, by and large, done a good job balancing the new game and source books for a more mature audience again.


totally agree..i feel that the game now is built on layers..yes the codex maybe losing some of their flavors and seem a bit weak..but i feel that really for new players..so they can get into the game faster and easier..and then for the veteran players there are so many choices or layers that they can add to play the game they wish..
so as ive stated before complaining about it really serve no purpose when you can easily create the game that you want..forge the narrative..if your a WAAC player well then your screwed..just have to deal with it..but for the hobbyist ther is so many cool and exciting ways to play now.


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## Fallen

I saw an interesting column on Spikey Bits as I was trolling the internet last night.

Basically included a response from Rick Priestly, the man who is credited to have invented 40k, and I thought that some of his comments were rather intriguing.



> It’s perfectly fine for GW to turn its backs upon wargaming in favour of modelling and collecting if that is the vision of the current management. But the result is that many customers who are or have been passionate about GW’s games do feel marginalized.





> ...if GW is sincere about changing its market stance (and does not lose its bottle and start to back track – which is still possible) it opens up the market to any number of new companies that are interested in games, gaming and gamers! That won’t do GW any harm so long as they are determined to abandon that market – and it would leave them to concentrate on a mixture of high price highly profitable collectibles and licensing its IP out into other media – always something I felt was under exploited due to fear of losing control at the top of the business.


Interesting to say the least.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

My dream for WHFB/40k is pretty much for GW to keep making miniatures and fluff and just hand over the game itself to another company. *cough* FFG *cough*


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## bitsandkits

GW would never allow a third party to write the rules besides does ffg have any experience in writing a massive tabletop wargame as complex as 40k has become Come to think of it who else does ?
Maybe im a fanboy and dont see the faults but truly who does have a game as game as complex as 40k , number of armies, number of units per army, number of models per army, vast array of vehicles land and air based, scenery and special rules, who else out there could be trusted to balance it while keeping it fast paced and enjoyable and most importantly profitable?


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## Bindi Baji

I actually think the game is becoming far more balanced then at any time I can actually recall


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