# Skaven in 8e



## HiveMinder

I have to admit, after all the hype, nay-saying, rumors, and fears, I'm delightfully excited by the new rule set. On the overall, it seems like game will have a lot more excitement with more intuitive phases. 

Having just recently returned to the world of Fantasy Battles after a long stint in the far future of the 41st millennium, I feel I have an objectivity that most might not. So, I've taken it upon myself to overview Skaven strengths and weaknesses in the new edition. In my opinion, the Skaven won the rules lottery (or paid off the writers, as is more befitting the ratmen.)

Generally speaking, the new edition favors large blocks of infantry more than ever, which is rule No.1 in Warlord Queek's Big Book of War. The horde rule has stench of Skaven all over it, who can field units that large without much trouble.

So, lets get right into it. For the sake of simplicity, unless I actaually reference the horde rule, assume we're dealing with 5 man ranks (or 3 in the case of Rat Ogres).

*General Skaven Rules*

Strength in Numbers: This combined with the steadfast rule mean that you're not going to be seeing very many small (less than 30 strong) units of skaven anymore. Having the extra models in the unit was pretty much common practice if you wanted to keep the +3 Ld bonus, but the added bonus of testing on unmodified Ld. means almost always testing on an 9 (or 10 if a warlord or seer is around). It's well worth the extra points per unit.

*Scavenge Pile*

*Warpmusket:* As anyone who has faced them knows, Skaven weaponry is some of the most vicious weaponry in Warhammer. The warpmusket is no exception, but since it's a move or fire weapon, it seldom gets picked up off the weapon racks. 

There are a few scenarios in which it comes in quite handy. A chieftain joined to a Jezzail squad can join his cronies in firing excitedly into the enemy ranks, while simultaneously offering them improved Ld. They can get an impressive 7 (which is pretty good for skaven) if they also have a second rank.

Another good use is a chieftain assigned to protect a flank. He can take pot shots at approaching flankers while his rats wait impatiently for the best time to counter-attack.

*Poisoned Attacks:* This is one of the best ways to combat high Toughness enemies. While still a very small chance, it helps. The best thing about it is that it will work with any mundane weapons you give the character. 

My personal favorite is on a Plague Priest with an additional hand weapon and tail weapon, giving you 6 attacks to roll a 6 with.

*Tail Weapon:* As just mentioned, tail weapons are great in conjunction with Poisoned Attacks. I generally don't take them on their own though, unless I have a few points left over to fill up. The reason being that I can afford 2 clanrats for the same cost, effectively 2 attacks instead of 1 (and of course, more rats on the board).

*Warplock Pistol:* The warplock pistol is pretty much useless as far as I'm concerned, its got a shorter range than normal pistols and has Unstable Ammunition. The only positive is that it makes magical attacks, for those times when you are fighting Ethereal units. There is only a slight chance of killing anything when you Stand and Shoot, and since it's a warpstone weapon, it won't benefit from poisoned attacks either. Not worth the 8 points in my opinion. 

*Rat Hound Bodyguard:* This is more like it. As with most of the other scavenge pile items, it gives you an extra attack, but only costs a point more than a clanrat. While there's a small chance of getting bitten, I think this is the best choice if you have a few points lying around.


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## HiveMinder

*Skaven Core Choices*

*Clanrats:* As mentioned before, large blocks of infantry are essential in 8e armies, and they don't get much larger than clanrats. A huge unit of clanrats will mire down even the most elite troops in multiple rounds of combat as the very worst of scenarios. 

However, compliment the unit with shields or spears and you get a pretty intimidating unit. The 6+ ward save will surely help make sure your large unit stays large, and stays toe-to-toe with the enemy. Meanwhile, spears means you'll be fighting in an impressive 3 ranks, or 4 in a horde (approx. 28 attacks!).

Another boon is the initiative based attacking on the charge. With I4, Skaven will be striking first in a good majority of situations, making them a difficult unit to charge as well.

*Skaven Slaves:* If there is one unit that can get larger than clanrats, its slaves. Although, I'm not sure if you'd need to. Slaves are basically cannon fodder, so I don't usually take too many, although having the steadfast rule with your army general around will make them just as much of a quagmire as clanrats.

The expendable rule makes them attractive options to take enemy charges since their break from combat will not cause any panic in your main forces, and allows you to shoot into their combat. With the most recent FAQ, the randomizing has been removed, which causes a slight bit of confusion since there is nothing in the core book now that says how hits are resolved in the case of non-template weapons, such as jezzails or ratling guns.

In my opinion, this means that all your shots are directed at the enemy unit, but are counted as being in hard cover due to the slaves unit being in the way. If anyone has a more official or different solution to the problem, I'd like to hear it. To be honest, I'd rather take casualties than suffer a -2 to hit.

Normally, I'm against upgrades of any kind for my trash units, however, in the slaves case, I'm willing to make an exception. The musician is a measly 2 pts, and gives the slaves a huge boost, if not only for the move after reforming.

*Stormvermin:* I know in the past, Stormvermin have gotten a lot of flak for not being worth the points. I think it's going to be much harder to make that claim in 8e. With the combination of close combat rules that benefit both the clanrats and slaves, paired with the new army composition rules, the stormvermin will be a great way to fill up some core points while adding a unit with some punch to it. 

Besides Rat Ogres, Stormvermin are the Skaven's best infantry option for taking out heavily armored units. I'm sure stormvermin will become a mainstay of my 1500+ pts armies.

*Weapon Teams:* Although not an official Core choice, they are a valuable (if sometimes erratic) asset to any Skaven warlord.

However, this is one area of the Skaven arsenal that suffered from the new rules, although not by much. There is almost no gaming impact on the effectiveness of the ratling gun and poison wind mortar.

The warpfire thrower is slightly less useful than it used to be. The overall increase in average charge ranges of everything means that there are less opportunities for shots before your targets are tied up in combats (unless those combats involve slaves, in which case, "FIRE AT WILL!"). On the plus side, if a unit were to charge the warpfire thrower, they would more than likely be right in the butter zone for heavy casualties from a stand and shoot reaction.

The doom-flayer probably took the hardest hit from the new rules. The only benefit it got was the increased charge distance, while the combat rules mean it can't just slice-and-dice its way through its opponents without repercussion. At the very best, it will have 4 models attacking it (2 B2B, and 2 support) every turn, and its 3+ armor save isn't going to last it very long even at those odds.

*Night Runners:* These guys were great for ruining your opponent's day, and they still are. Although not terribly useful on their own, the addition of a warp-grinder changes things considerably. They only gained 1" more charge range on average, but every little bit helps.

Alternatively, if no counter-charges are imminent, you could give them slings and hurl 20 shots first, and charge next turn. The two ranks of sling fire will certainly add some much needed punch to the unit.

This is one of the few Skaven units that I wouldn't spend the points to fluff the ranks with extra bodies. Although, it will make them better, your opponent is not going to stand idly by while your Night Runners sow death and destruction amidst his army. The real trick is to field just enough Night Runners to last a turn or two, while your main force closes in on the distracted enemy.

*Giant Rats:* With the modified Fight in Extra Ranks rule, Giant rats can easily get 15 attacks a combat. Being as cheap as they are, you can take a horde of them for a meager 128 pts + packmasters! 

Now for a word on packmasters (and this goes for Rat Ogre units too). The 8e rules make it very impractical to try to use packmasters as anything else but Ld stats. With the horde and steadfast rule (or Monstrous Infantry rules in the case of Rat Ogres) , its far more worthwhile to fill up ranks to the point that the packmasters can't use their whips.

However, still good to note that there's still a 1 in 3 chance that one of your packmasters is going to take an arrow to the face, so I'd still bring an extra or two. 

I'm almost always in favor of upgrading to a Master Moulder for the Ld bonus, that means a deep unit of rats will be testing on an unmodified 9. Additionally, his weapon options give you a pretty potent champion to the unit. The downside to the Mater Moulder is of course that he's just a champion, that can be singled out in combat. Even with 2 wounds, any weapons upgrades he takes means he's going to be a touch on the pricey side. Even so, I never leave Hell Pit without them.

*Rat Swarms:* In 8e, rat swarms have one purpose: flank denial. Thanks to the skirmisher rule, you can use use long ranks of the little buggers to span entire flanks, effectively acting like a net to trap any units in their way.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't going to win (unless your very lucky). Their already fragile stat line combined with supporting attacks means that any units they come up against will have more than enough attacks to secure victory. While they don't flee, their Unstable rule will take a toll on them.

I'd expect a unit of 5 bases to buy you about 2 - 3 player turns, so it helps to either bring larger units, or have another unit ready to charge in the flank. Unfortunately, supporting attacks aren't very useful to the rat swarms with the A5 on their profile. Although, the extra ranks will tend to cut down on your Unstable wounds.


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## HiveMinder

*Skaven Special Choices*

*Gutter Runners:* While the new skirmish rules really help the Rat Swarms, the same cannot be said for Gutter Runners. While it still makes them very manoeuverable, the fact that they still only get to fire with their first two "ranks" means that they lost some shots off a full squad.

The plus side is that even with 10 models firing, they're still going to average 10 hits. They're another good disruption unit, especially with the addition of a warp-grinder. Since they can't claim ranks, the ability to pop out and get a flank or rear charge will help them alot. 

However, if you choose to forgo the warp-grinder, they still have a few tricks up their sleeve. Poisoned attacks are pricey, but will certainly give you a slight edge against high toughness targets, especially since it affects both ranged and melee attacks.

Overall, I think Gutter Runners are the surgical instruments of the Skaven force, you need to know where and when to use them to the greatest effect. With no rank bonus or standard to add to combat, you're working purely off of kills, and with a maximum unit size of 15, you're probably not going to get to take advantage of the steadfast rule very often.

*Rat Ogres:* Okay, I have to admit, I'm really giddy about 8e Rat Ogres. They're by far my favorite models in the Skaven arsenal, and with the new rules for Monstrous infantry, I have a great excuse to field a lot of them.

Six, to be precise. A unit of two ranks of three means you'll be outputting 24 S5 attacks, more than enough to ruin your opponent's day. Bigger units can be useful, especially if the opposing unit has I5 or higher. Lets you absorb some wounds without losing attacks.

As before, the big weakness of Rat Ogres is their weak Ld score. With two ranks and a Master Moulder, you're only testing on a 7. That's not going to go very far if you lose combat.

*Plague Monks:* Plague Monks haven't changed too much in 8e. True, they gained 5 extra attacks, but percentage wise, that's a far smaller boost than some other units. Like other skaven units in 8e, larger is better. For Monks, the real boon is the +3 Ld boost. With the new frenzy rules, frenzied units are somewhat controllable if they can pass Ld tests, so ensuring that you have the full rank bonus from Strength in Numbers is key.

As with every other Skaven unit, the steadfast rule is crucial, however with plague monks this is even more true. Failing a break test not only means running away, it also means the loss of frenzy.

Now, don't get me wrong, Plague Monks are still a fantastic unit (and quite essential if you want to field a Plague Furnace), but at least now they are in competition with Stormvermin for a spot in the army.

*Plague Censer Bearers:* Censer bearers are one of the hardest hitting chargers in the Skaven arsenal. With two ranks, you can generate a staggering 20 S5 attacks with rerolls to hit. Add in the censer effect and you've got one hell of a lot of punishment.

The Initiative based combat is a little of bit of a downside for the censer bearers though. With only I3, they're going to take a fair death toll of their own before the dust (and toxic fumes) settle. 

In 7e, I usually only took units of 5 or 6 monks, so as to avoid extra deaths from the censer, however, with the addition of supporting attacks, its worth taking up to 10. It will only amount to 1 extra censer death on average, while adding 4 extra attacks (5 minus the one that died).

As mentioned before, the new Frenzy rules make them somewhat controllable provided they can pass Ld tests. Since it's not really feasible to take a 20+ unit of Censure Bearers, its crucial that they stay close to some Plague Monks, so they can benefit from their Ld.

*Warplock Jezzails:* While the majority of skaven units lack any kind of ranged weaponry, the Jezzail Teams more than compensate for this deficiency. The addition of Strength in Numbers to the unit and the new shooting rules means that you can take 10 teams in two ranks, giving you Ld 6, without affecting the number of shots fired.

However, be wary, with so many S6 armor piercing shots, they're sure to attract a lot of attention, so be sure to shield them with other units, slaves or rat swarms work nicely.

*Poison Wind Globadiers:* These guys have a nasty habit of ruining my opponents day. In 8e, they're just as nasty. As skirmishers, they can move up to 10" a turn and still hurl their globes with only a -1 to Hit for long range. 

The downside to the unit now is that with the new skirmish formation rules is that if you take more than 10, the extras can't fire. However, extra bodies is never a bad thing for skaven. Also, taking a poison wind mortar is worth the points since it can move and fire, it can tool around with the globadiers, adding even more punch to the unit.

The most interesting point to note is that while in combat, the second rank can make supporting attacks AND hurl globes. Unless I completely missed something in the rules, models making supporting attacks don't count as being engaged, so they may lob globes as per the Life is Cheap rule.


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## HiveMinder

*Skaven Rare Choices*

*Hell Pit Abomination:* Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with the Hell Pit abomination. As in 7e, its a big, nasty, albeit random, killing machine. If nothing else, I would just take one for funzies. 

However, as far as gameplay differences are concerned, the abomination is a little more vulnerable, simply because massed infantry against it will get extra attacks against it.

In the abomination's favor, the revised Random Movement rules means that whatever they end up charging won't be able to stand and shoot.

The only real problem with it is that you need to make one if you're going to use it. I've seen a lot of different conversions, but I have to say that this is the most epic I've ever seen.

*Doomwheel:* The doomwheel remains pretty much unchanged from 7e. It's still a great at killing monsters and causing general havoc in your enemy's flanks.

Like the abomination, the Doomwheel suffers a bit more in combat from the increased number of attacks that infantry can output.

The other change is that with the new Random Movement rule, the doomwheel can't manoeuver during its move, so crashing into terrain is far more of an issue.

*Warp Lightning Cannon:* The warp lightning cannon has had a serious boost in 8e. Now that you don't have to guess range, you can almost guarantee that you'll get a substantial number of kills with a little luck. I find that its best to place the bounce marker a good 4 - 5" in front of your intended target. This should ensure that the template will land on the unit with a decent S hit for maximum carnage.

On the downside, the cannon effectively lost a wound on it's profile because of the new crew rules. Not a huge deal, as now it has the same number of wounds as most other war machines in the game.

*Plagueclaw Catapult:* As with the warp lightning cannon, the plagueclaw catapult got a huge upgrade. Even though the hits are only S2, dropping large pie plates onto a unit is a wonderful thing.

In addition, the crew got a boost as well, getting 6 attacks consistently, rather than the D6 it used to be.


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## HiveMinder

*Skaven Lords and Heroes Choices*

*Lord Skrolk:* Skrolk became marginally better with the 8e rules. The first thing that stood out was his Liber Bubonicus. In earlier editions, rolling a 2 - 4 was basically useless against T4 units. However, with the change to the To Wound chart, even the lowly S1 hit can take out some of the more resilient units in the game.

Since Skrolk causes Terror (and Fear), his aura of pestilence becomes exceptionally useful when the enemy fails his fear test, meaning the enemy will be hitting Skrolk on 6's.

But by far, one of the most useful things about Skrolk is that he makes Plague Monks count as Core choices. Now, I'm not suggesting that you fill up an army with Plague Monks (although that is a terrifying thought), but I think its benefit lies in freeing up your Specials points to be spent elsewhere. Those points could easily go for more Plague Censure Bearers, or another pack of Rat Ogres.

*Thanquol & Boneripper:* Thanquol ranks among the best wizards in the game. With the new magic phase, warpstone tokens are excellent for phases in which you find yourself lacking power dice. And, since Thanquol gets D6 +2 tokens means that you have plenty of reserve power at your disposal.

Boneripper is somewhat of an afterthought. A lone rat ogre, albeit a heavily fortified rat ogre, isn't much of a punch on the battlefield. His warpfire thrower will help if he gets charged, and since he's unbreakable, he'll at least hold up a unit for a few turns. I tend to use him to cover a flank if I can.

Now, while I don't plan on covering entirety of the Skaven spells, I think special mention needs to be made for Curse of the Horned Rat. This spell isn't going to be quite as useful as it used to be, simply because 8e favors larger units, and to get the best out of CotHR (i.e. clanrats), the target unit should have 14 models or less. Also, the insanely high casting requirement of 25+ means that its going to be very hard to cast without IF/miscasting, and uses up quite a lot of power dice in the process.

Don't get me wrong, its still a brutal spell to use against your opponents elite infantry units, causing 4D6 casualties with absolutely no saves is always fun. And just to prove how useful it can be, keep in mind that Slann are infantry models, so a lone slann, or one in a suitably small unit, can be instant killed with CotHR. :biggrin:

*Ikit Claw:* Ikit has my favorite fluff of all the Skaven, so I'm a little disappointed in his rules. That aside however, he'll do very well leading a unit where his meager 2 attacks won't get him killed.

The only problem I can see is Ikit's Storm Daemon. With the new bound spell rules, a miscast will mean that he'll be without his weapon for the remainder of the game.

However, since the power dice pool is back to being communal for wizards, rolling a 6 when it misfires will be very useful.

And, as with boneripper, Ikit's warpfire thrower will help when he gets charged, especially since he gets to reroll the artillery die, hopefully letting him be more accurate.

*Throt the Unclean:* Throt wasn't really affected all too much by the 8e rules. He still adds one hell of a punch to any Moulder unit he joins. Although I still recommend adding as many packmasters as you can muster if you plan on putting him in a unit of Rat Ogres to act as ablative wounds.

Since he causes Fear, I tend to put him into giant rat packs. First, I don't have to spend points on extra packmasters, the giant rats make a tasty meal on the cheap. And since he causes fear, a failed fear test means that all the rats will be hitting on 3+, something that they seldom get to do.

As far as rules changes, it's subtle but worth mentioning. The FAQ cleared up that the whole unit suffers -2 Ld if it suffers a wound from Whip of Domination, so if you win combat, you can pretty much expect to be chasing your opponent down. In addition, it will help against all those pesky Stubborn or steadfast units (unlikely, unless he's with Rat Ogres).

Like Skrolk, Throt's best feature is his ability to make some Rat Ogres count as Core choices, freeing up some Specials slots for.....more Rat Ogres! Having Giant Rats actually count as Core choices is nice, but unless you're playing a Moulder heavy army, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

*Warlord Queek Headtaker:* As with Throt, Queeks functionality changed very little in 8e. The biggest boon of queek is that his low points cost means he can fit comfortably into a 1000 pt game, giving you quite a combat monster for a game so small. And skaven being skaven, you'll still most likely outnumber your opponent even with Queek eating up a fifth of your points.

I'm really disappointed in Queek's extra ability, buffing a unit of Stormvermin. While it does boost their combat prowess, giving them S6 attacks, at 4 pts a model, its a bit too pricey for my tastes. Comparatively, Dwarf Longbeards get the same stat boost, PLUS Immunity to Panic, PLUS the ability to allow nearby units to reroll failed panic tests, all for 1 pt less per model. That being said, you're not going to get that many S6 attacks any other way in a Skaven army, so if you've got the points to blow, go for it.

*Verminlord:* Skaven don't have many quality over quantity units, but the Verminlord is certainly one of them. With 5 attacks, I 10, S 6, and Multiple Wounds (D3), he is a monster slaughterer. And on top of that, he's a Lvl. 4 Wizard who can have Curse of the Horned Rat. I'm hard pressed to find a reason not to take him.

The only reason I can find is that he's 500 pts, so unless you're playing a truely epic sized game, its either the Verminlord or a Screaming Bell.

As a spellcaster, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, he's not as versatile as a Grey Seer due to lack of warpstone tokens, and his inability to join units. On the other hand, he's one of the few wizards in the game that can survive a miscast or two without crippling himself, and since he fights alone, miscasts won't often harm your other troops.

*Warlords and Chieftains:* These generic characters bear almost no mention, as they have no special rules that would be affected by 8e rules.

For the most part, I'd never take a warlord, opting for one of the named lords, or a verminlord or grey seer. However, if mounted on a rat ogre bonebreaker, a warlord might just merit a spot in my force. The bonebreaker is like a rat ogre on steroids, which adds considerable clout to the skaven warlord during a challange. But the biggest reason to bring one is that he causes Fear, so dropping one into a unit of clanrats or stormvermin will give you effectively an extra fear causing unit.

Chieftains have one redeeming quality. They're cheap. They're perfect for adding to units to boost their Ld., and can make the best use out of verminous valor, so they dont' get slaughtered in challanges.

*Grey Seer:* Grey Seers are great wizards, with a little versatility since they get some warpstone tokens to start, and can buy more as you see fit. Their ability to take Skitterleap as a default spell is fantastic, allowing you to position your characters exactly where you need them.

A particularly favorite tactic of mine is to Skitterleap the grey seer behind enemy lines or along a flank, and then deliver a hopefully devastating Plague, Vermintide, or Cracks Call.

But the real reason to take a grey seer is to bring a Screaming Bell to the party. While its effects may not be completely predictable, all are useful. One of the many nice things about a Screaming Bell is that it takes up so much space in the unit, that making a horde out of the unit pushing the bell is much easier.

*Deathmaster Snikch:* Deathmaster Snikch is quite the hero. However, in 8e, its well that he is since he can't be the army general, you don't need to use up valuable Lords points. He's still one of the best ways to take out enemy war machines, but he can still hold his own against enemy characters.

Another great use for Snikch, is to put him in a tunneling unit of Gutter Runners. It (hopefully) will get him into combat quickly where he can reap a large body count.

*Tretch Craventail:* Tretch is a really solid hero choice, and with the new steadfast rule, he's much easier to use to fullest effect.

Tretch can help cripple those particularly hard to shift units with the help of a few units of clanrats or stormvermin. Basically the idea is to engage the enemy with one unit, stay locked in combat (this is where being steadfast helps), and then when you charge the flank with the second unit, you can use the Stay Here, I'll Get Help rule to hop him over to the flanking unit to allow them to reroll To Hit rolls.

*Assassins:* Okay, although it has nothing to do with the 8e rules, I do need to vent my frustrations about skaven assassins. After the newest edition of the Dark Elves Armies book, I was hopeful that the Skaven assassins would get the same treatment. Alas, this is not the case, so we're stuck shelling out valuable heroes points for assassins. It's frustrating to say the least.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, its fair to say that skaven assasins are basically less potent versions of Snikch. And for the points, you can afford two lightly armed assassins for the same price as the Deathmaster. So really, as far as assassins go, it comes down to if you want one big slaughtermaster, or two smaller slaughtermasters.

Of course, you could add more assassins if you have more points to spend, but I tend to not go hog wild with the assassins, since there are so many other great things to take.

*Warlock Engineers:* Warlock Engineers are an interesting choice that isn't at first apparent, but with a 15 pt price tag, the ideas are fast coming.

I like to think of them as Brass Orb delivery systems. Just skitterleap one of these guys into range of a low Initiative unit and hurl the globe. With a little luck you'll cause some massive damage, and if the little guy ends up slaughtered by some disgruntled enemy units, you've only really lost 15 pts. The same tactic can be employed with a Death Globe, but can be equally deadly against any unit.

Alternatively, I occasionally charge these guys with leading my slaves into battle. I'm willing to spend 15 pts to give my slaves +3 Ld. It comes in handy when the general isn't around. (The lifespans of my warlock engineers are very short.)

However, with the new rules, they're really handy when upgraded to wizards. I generally only upgrade them to Lvl. 1 Wizards, because the whole point is that they cost so little. At 65 pts, only goblin shamans are cheaper, and they allow you to channel extra power dice.

*Plague Priest:* Plague Priests are a wonderful add-on to any Pestilens unit. The Ld 6 helps keep the Frenzied troops from charging unnecessarily. Since he's a Lvl. 1 Wizard, he can act similarly to the Warlock Engineers channeling power dice.

On top of all that, he's got a pretty epic stat line, boasting T5, and S4. With a flail, he's making a whopping 4 S6 attacks in the first round of combat. Or, with a Plague Censure, he's even at home in a unit of Censure Bearers.

However, the biggest benefit to the Plague Priest is to bring the dreaded Plague Furnace to battle. Not only does it give you an Unbreakable unit of Plague Monks, and take up a lot of space, allowing you to field a horde of Monks relatively easily, but adds lot of punch to combat with the possibility of 10 S5 auto hits in addition to D6 Toughness tests. In all honesty, I'd be incredibly surprised if any unit survives a charge from a Plague Furnace.


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## Barnster

You may want to upgrade the slaves to carry slings, now they fire in 2 ranks they can dish out a sizable quantity of short range shots

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread


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## HiveMinder

Barnster said:


> You may want to upgrade the slaves to carry slings, now they fire in 2 ranks they can dish out a sizable quantity of short range shots


While I can see where getting 20 shots (still dealing with 5 frontage) seems like a tasty option, the math just doesn't work out well on this. The slaves pesky BS of 2 is the killer here.

Hypothetically, if a unit of slaves is being charged by humans in light armor, and you stand and shoot, you still need a 6+/4+ to hit. (-1 for multiple shots, and -1 for long range, since the average human charge now is 11"). So even those 20 shots is only going to net you 1 or 2 hits on average. And then you have a 4+ to wound and a 6+ armor save to cope with.

I'd much rather save those 10 points it costs to outfit a 20 strong unit, and make it a 25 strong unit instead.


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## Putch.

Great work here man, +rep!


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## Tyrian

Exactly what i was looking for! I've just decided to start up a wfb army and with the new island of blood box set i had plumped for skaven, just coz well, they look like so much manic fun to play... this review has really helped cement the extras i'll need to make a decent fighting force!
+rep


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## Jolly Puggles

One thing I will mention (and forgive me if I make any mistakes here...I'm still shaky on the new rules), is that Giant Rat packs should be numbering closer to 50 attacks output than 15...for a meagre 230pts you get 50 Giant Rats and 10 Packmasters. Utilising the horde rules, that's 3 ranks fighting as basic (30 attacks), plus another rank for Fight in Ranks (+10) plus the Packmasters Whips (+10). To my mind, fielding anything less is simply a churlish waste of an opportunity.

The only drawback is getting models for them all!


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## HiveMinder

Jolly Puggles said:


> One thing I will mention (and forgive me if I make any mistakes here...I'm still shaky on the new rules), is that Giant Rat packs should be numbering closer to 50 attacks output than 15...for a meagre 230pts you get 50 Giant Rats and 10 Packmasters. Utilising the horde rules, that's 3 ranks fighting as basic (30 attacks), plus another rank for Fight in Ranks (+10) plus the Packmasters Whips (+10). To my mind, fielding anything less is simply a churlish waste of an opportunity.


Yeah, its a good theory. The only oversight in your logic I see is that you're basing your numbers off of the assumption that your horde unit is facing another horde unit, since thats the only way your entire front rank is going to get to attack.

A more common scenario is your horde vs. a normal (5 frontage) unit. With a perfect setup, you'll have 7 rats per rank attacking, netting you a still impressive 28 attacks. 

Unfortunately, you won't get any whip attacks from the packmasters, since whips can only attack over a max of 3 ranks of rats. If you want to take the 4th rank to take advantage of the horde rule, you lose the whip attacks as consequence. 

Sorry I was unclear in my original post, I usually only field 3 ranks, 5 wide so my packmasters can still contribute to the combat, hence 15 attacks from the rats. However, thinking about it, I suppose having a much larger unit would be better, not only would the 4th rank boost them to Ld 8, but extra ranks beyond that would help to make them stubborn. and of course, swelling the ranks even further would give them that horde rule too.


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## Jolly Puggles

HiveMinder said:


> Yeah, its a good theory. The only oversight in your logic I see is that you're basing your numbers off of the assumption that your horde unit is facing another horde unit, since thats the only way your entire front rank is going to get to attack.
> 
> A more common scenario is your horde vs. a normal (5 frontage) unit. With a perfect setup, you'll have 7 rats per rank attacking, netting you a still impressive 28 attacks.


True enough, though due to their 20mm bases, it's not uncommon to squeeze in an extra model fighting when you're up against cavalry or 'brute' infantry (like Orcs and Beastmen) that use 25mm bases.



> Unfortunately, you won't get any whip attacks from the packmasters, since whips can only attack over a max of 3 ranks of rats. If you want to take the 4th rank to take advantage of the horde rule, you lose the whip attacks as consequence.


I forgot they changed the whip rules from the last Warhammer Armies book...you could use them over any number of ranks of rats in the last edition!



> Sorry I was unclear in my original post, I usually only field 3 ranks, 5 wide so my packmasters can still contribute to the combat, hence 15 attacks from the rats. However, thinking about it, I suppose having a much larger unit would be better, not only would the 4th rank boost them to Ld 8, but extra ranks beyond that would help to make them stubborn. and of course, swelling the ranks even further would give them that horde rule too.


As I say, at 3pts per model and with their only disadvantage by comparison to Clanrats being the lack of armour (give or take), they just beg to be used _en masse_. Even with maxed out Packmasters (i.e. 1 PM per 5 rats), they're cheaper than Clanrats...6 Clanrats with spear comes in at 27pts whilst a Packmaster and 5 Giant Rats is only 23pts. You can technically go cheaper still by skimping on the Packmasters too. If you wanted to take a different route, you could also go for multiple smaller units (of about the size you speak of or smaller, even, to save points), each with it's own Master Moulder; a _de facto _Chieftain being paid for out of your Core troops allowance (I know they're not quite Chieftain stats, but they're close enough to worry common champions in a challenge!).


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## HiveMinder

Jolly Puggles said:


> If you wanted to take a different route, you could also go for multiple smaller units (of about the size you speak of or smaller, even, to save points), each with it's own Master Moulder; a _de facto _Chieftain being paid for out of your Core troops allowance


Thats a good point that I failed to mention. The Master Moulder is basically a free character as far as heroes points allotment is concerned.

Along that thought, my current favorite way to arm a Master Moulder is with a Things-Catcher and The Other Trickster's Shard, an Enchanted Item in the new BRB. Its great for slaying enemy characters. Killing Blow and forcing rerolls of successful ward saves, gotta love it.


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## Barnster

I think you have given rat ogres too much praise, they fall to missile fire at a crazy rate, and with no save and only a mediocre toughness they fall quick, with the TLoS they are nigh on impossible to screen.

squeel is a great upgrade for giant rats now as hes an even more improved master moulder and tends to be better with the rats than the ogres

The other point with the plague priest and W engineer is that they can't be scroll cadies as scrolls are 1 per army now

As far as the vermin lord I think if your playing ogres or other big monsters then hes worth his weight in warpstone otherwise your better off with a grey seer, on bell

I think you have made a lot of good points though


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## HiveMinder

Barnster said:


> I think you have given rat ogres too much praise, they fall to missile fire at a crazy rate, and with no save and only a mediocre toughness they fall quick, with the TLoS they are nigh on impossible to screen.
> 
> The other point with the plague priest and W engineer is that they can't be scroll cadies as scrolls are 1 per army now


I don't see how it's impossible to screen rat ogres. A unit of slaves would do nicely for the purpose. The rules say that only the majority of the unit need be obscured (i.e. the Knights in example on pg. 41 of the BRB). Regardless of the hulking size of the rat ogres, they are a multi-model unit, so follow the normal rules for cover.

Also, my common opponents used to be Bretonnians and Lizardmen, so I never had to deal with real shooty armies, but I agree that missile fire is a real problem for them.

Thanks for pointing out the scroll rule though. I read the magic item rules but never put 2 and 2 together. I've editted my original post to reflect that.


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## Barnster

ROs are a good solid choice and its always a great unit to take but I try and use mine as a flanking unit rather than a main battle line unit, tie up with clan rats then flank charge with the ogres, you need less of them and less attacks coming their way is always a good thing


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## Vaz

Rat Ogres are the perfect counter foil in a Plague Furnace Army, keeping your Plague Priest alive. Remember that a cannon ball will stop if it fails to wound. 3x2 will keep your Priest alive, and then shunt off to take on cavalry. 

With Step Up Rules, Impact hits, and a priest with censer, you;re doing some horrendous damage (2x Toughness tests for all in base contact will begin to shred your Monks though, even with it only being 6s).

I don't have the book with me, but I think with Skrolk, 2 Priests, 3 Furnaces, and 3 Huge Monk units, supported by two Plague Claws and a mix of PCB's and Globadiers with as many Mortars as you can fit is quite a nasty army. Hardest thing will be big monsters, but with Censers, you should be able to take them down.


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## callred

any advice on how to kit warlords out have 2400pt tourney coming up and struggling to work out if he needs anything other than basic

maybe some reviews of the new magic/enchanted items along with scavenge pile items would be helpful

cheers :grin:


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## Barnster

Generally a good idea to give him some sort of ward save. As far as magic items and scavenge pile it really is down to personal chioce, as every magic item is less rats on the table and skaven tend to do better with just more troops, think if i save x points but not having a shiney amulet i could get a plagueclaw.

Skaven warlords can be tooled up to go toe to toe with most other characters eg give them a rat ogre, and their high inititive helps alot here, but around 2000pts that eats your points up, so it personal, deadlier warlord or more rats, with he warlord picking his fights against low troops or champions


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## callred

cheers  will prob put talisman of endurance and gold signil sword on warlord then


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## Putch.

Sigil sword may be a bit of waste, since he is already initiative 7. The sword of swift slaying however would give him re-rolls


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## callred

i get that from the rulebook as ASF ? - sword of swift striking that is


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## Putch.

yes, its in the 8th edition rulebook magic weapons section, it wouldnt _literally_ give you re-rolls, it gives you ASF, but with initative 7 you should be re-rolling quite often.


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## Tim/Steve

If you have ASF and an equal or higher initiative then an enemy (and they dont have ASF) then you get to reroll failed to-hit roles... which makes HEs really nasty and the sword of swift striking pretty darn useful for everyone: either it makes you go first, or if you would go first anyway it lets you reroll to hit.


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## callred

ah ha cheers for that hadnt realised that was the case may well change to that then ta :victory:


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## Cheese meister

also you missed out boneripper would be the army general if you took thanquol meaning an easy extra 100 vps for your opponent


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## Putch.

Cheese meister said:


> also you missed out boneripper would be the army general if you took thanquol meaning an easy extra 100 vps for your opponent



How do you figure...?


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## Cheese meister

boneripper has the highest ld


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## HiveMinder

Except that boneripper is not a character, he's the bodyguard of Grey Seer Thanquol and is considered part of Thanqoul's equippment as stated in the Skaven FAQ. He's worth absolutely nothing on his own.

He can never be the army general.

And in reply to the warlord equippment question, I prefer to give him very little equippment, and if I do, its either protective or buff equipment. As previously mentioned, the more magic items you take, the fewer rats you can field. Combined with the fact that your general can still use Inspiring Presence after declining a charge means that you really don't have to make him a combat monster to make him effective. In fact, if don't know who your opponent will be, it's what I'd recommend since then your warlord will be equally useful in all games.

Under those conditions, I tend to give him some Skavenbrew, making the unit he's in much more killy (hopefully). The Shadow Magnet Trinket is also handy, allowing your unit to traverse the board with slightly fewer rats dying from missile fire.

Although, if you do want a combat minded Warlord, I like giving him a Weeping Blade, hitting with a -2 AS and D3 wounds each means he can easily take down a foe with a lucky shot or two. Another fun combo is Warpstone Armor, a shield, and a Dawnstone. This lets you re-roll failed ASs, and every AS you make inflicts a S4 hit on the attacker.


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## HiveMinder

callred said:


> maybe some reviews of the new magic/enchanted items along with scavenge pile items would be helpful
> 
> cheers :grin:


You're wish is my command :grin: I've edited my first post to include reviews of the Scavenge Pile. I'll try to get to the Skaven Magic Items soon.


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## Firedamaged

Jolly Puggles said:


> As I say, at 3pts per model and with their only disadvantage by comparison to Clanrats being the lack of armour (give or take), they just beg to be used _en masse_. Even with maxed out Packmasters (i.e. 1 PM per 5 rats), they're cheaper than Clanrats...6 Clanrats with spear comes in at 27pts whilst a Packmaster and 5 Giant Rats is only 23pts. You can technically go cheaper still by skimping on the Packmasters too. If you wanted to take a different route, you could also go for multiple smaller units (of about the size you speak of or smaller, even, to save points), each with it's own Master Moulder; a _de facto _Chieftain being paid for out of your Core troops allowance (I know they're not quite Chieftain stats, but they're close enough to worry common champions in a challenge!).


I think this is a great argument in massive favor of Giant Rats as a basic core choice. Only one problem, and correct me if I'm wrong on this but, in the new rules isn't it the case that for every multiple of another unit you must have the same number of Clanrat units fielded in your army? So you could have a load of cheap Giant Rat units but wouldn't the cost of having de facto Clanrat units offset the costs of the cheaper unit?


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## goofman865

im glad i get skaven as well because u made them sound awsome


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## HiveMinder

Firedamaged said:


> I think this is a great argument in massive favor of Giant Rats as a basic core choice. Only one problem, and correct me if I'm wrong on this but, in the new rules isn't it the case that for every multiple of another unit you must have the same number of Clanrat units fielded in your army? So you could have a load of cheap Giant Rat units but wouldn't the cost of having de facto Clanrat units offset the costs of the cheaper unit?


Not in the most current Skaven army book. That rule existed in the previous version.

Also, I'd like to place one more nail in the coffin against massive units of Giant Rats. Yes, compared to clanrats they are pretty good, However, you have to take into account that they don't count toward your minimum core points allotment, so really, you should be comparing them to units in your Specials and Rare choices, as those are the points you're sacrificing to take the Giant Rats in the army. In my opinion, I can find much better things to take for that 230 pt Giant Rat unit...like a Hellpit for instance.


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