# Assault Marines paired with a Chaplain?



## Lipsidius (May 27, 2008)

Hey all,

I've noticed that quite a few members prefer to have a Chaplain leading a squad of Assault Marines. Why is this? I prefer attaching the Chaplain to a Command squad where all squad members are allowed to buy term. honors as well as furious charge. You can also upgrade up to three marines, (one to Company Champ, one to Apothecary and one to a Standard Bearer) which would then allow them to buy power weapons from the armory. Other than the points cost and the 12" movement by the Assault Marines, why would someone prefer their 2 attacks, (3 on the charge) at strength 4, initiative 4 with a max of 2 power weapons instead of 3 attacks, (4 on the charge) at strength 5, initiative 5 with a max of 5 power weapons? Have I missed the boat on Assault Marines all together?

Thanks in advance.


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

yes, you have lol. The 12 inches and WAY less point difference is way better. Give that sergeant and chaplain a power fist and you got a mean 9 str 8 attacks that re roll on the charge.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think it does come down to those two things of cost and movement. For example a tooled up Command Squad (10 guys) with furious charge, all specilists, power fists or power weapons, terminator honours etc comes in at around 415-430 points without:

- A banner
- A Transport (if you don't give them one you might as well leave them off the table because they are going to be shot at straight away)
Special weapons (plasma gun, flamer whatever)
- *The Chaplin* (say about 130 pts?)

With those things it about 600 right? 

In comparrison a fully tooled up Assualt Squad (10 guys again) with 2 Plasma Pistols and a kitted up Sergeant comes in at about 300. *Thats without that Chaplin again*. So I could probably with some thought be able to get another 5 man Assualt squad for the same price as the Command Squad and Chaplin, in addition to the 10 man Assualt Squad and Chaplin.

Add on to that the 12 inch movement and the ability to Deep Strike the Assualt Squad (despite being not as good in Combat) comes out on top for most people. Plus from what I hear Command Squad tend to die quite fast.

Hope that helps you


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Remember, only army lists in the army list sections! 

Katie D


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Chaplains are assault themed characters.
They need to be connected to an assault-capable unit.

While the Command Squad *can* be very nasty in assault, it suffers from being both expensive and *slooooow*. There's no point in being toole dup for assault if it takes most of the game just to get into combat...and cramming that expensive squad into a rhino is practically a non-option.

The assault squad, while suffering from having less access to power weapons/fists is both cheaper and faster. One PF sarge and a couple plaspistols (or plas and flamer) is going to be able to get into combat faster and therefore will do more damage over the course of the game than your tooled up command squad will...what with haivng to march across the board on foot.


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## Lipsidius (May 27, 2008)

All very good points. I've done an analysis of both my Chaplain Command squad and a Chaplain Assault squad and these are my findings:

Chaplain Command Squad (CCS) -vs- Chaplain Assault Squad (CAS)
CCS. 332 total points for 6 man sqd. (all w/Furious Charge and Term. Hnrs.) incl. Chap., Sgt. w/PW and Champ. w/PW + Rhino w/Smoke
CAS. 272 total points for 6 man sqd. No one has Furious Charge and only The Chap. & Sgt. have Term. Hnrs. + PW's.

CCS. Chap. has initiative of 6, all others have initiative 5
CAS. Chap. has initiative of 5, all others have initiative 4

CCS. All members have Strength 5
CAS. All members have Strength 4

CCS. Total attacks w/charge, PW - 14, NPW* - 12
CAS. Total attacks w/charge, PW - 10, NPW* - 10

CCS - Total attacks = 26
CAS - Total attacks = 20

CCS. Total attacks w/o charge, PW - 11, NPW* - 9
CAS. Total attacks w/o charge, PW - 8, NPW* - 6

CCS - Total attacks = 20
CAS - Total attacks = 14

* - None Power Weapon

Overall my Chaplain Command squad, though more expensive packs more of a punch. The Chaplain Assault squad, though not as lethal is slightly more mobile and may allow me to pick up extra models. Hmmm, tough choice. I will try out the Chaplain Assault squad and see how that shakes out.

Thanks again for the thoughts.

Lipsidius


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow you really have put some thought into this, please let us know how your test games come along. Being a BA player I get the best of both worlds because my Command Squad (Honour Guard) get jump packs too :biggrin: lol


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## Lipsidius (May 27, 2008)

To CallumM27,

I know, I put way too much thought into this. But I do love my Command squad. I will post the results of my test game.

Thanks,

Lipsidius


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Galahad said:


> While the Command Squad *can* be very nasty in assault, it suffers from being both expensive and *slooooow*. There's no point in being toole dup for assault if it takes most of the game just to get into combat...and cramming that expensive squad into a rhino is practically a non-option.


 
I totally disagree. If they're in a Rhino that's by itself, then that's a problem. If you back up the Command Squad with mounted Tactical Squads, however, they usually get to where they need to be. I've never had the issue of my Rhinos being deathtraps, but that's probably because I don't just floor it forward with them. 

A Rhino-mounted squad, in any instance, is actually a fair bit safer than an assault squad that's hopping around. The assault squad is vulnerable to ordinance blasts in a bad way, but the Rhino actually offers pretty solid protection against all but a direct hit from a battle cannon, and even then, it's still halfway decent protection. You're actually more likely to be able to deliver all ten Space Marines inside the Rhino into close combat than you are ten jump packers, just by virtue of the Rhino's armour. It's proof against most small arms fire, so that eliminates another threat as you advance. 

I suppose all that's going to change soon, when Command Squads stop filling the role of a Veteran Squad, though, since the trend has been to cut them down to five, and only five, models. Five Space Marines in power armour aren't a threat in close combat to most things, purely because there are only five of 'em.


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## Lipsidius (May 27, 2008)

Well, I tried out a couple of very short scenerios with both squad types, and though both won versus Terminators in CC the Command squad faired much better and was much more lethal. The Assault squad lost 3 marines while killing all 5 Terms., but it took 4 turns to do it in. The Command squad with it's high initiative and 14 power weapon attacks killed off all Terms. in it's first turn without losing any men, though it did lose it's Rhino. Sons of Horus is right, if you send your Rhino out ahead on it's own it is a death trap. I usually have 2 Preds leading them, with a Whirlwind supporting them from the rear, or a dread flanking it for support. I also usually have 2 Tac. squads up ahead infiltrating with the tank hunter ability (due to traits) closer to the enemy front lines.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

watch those traits in 5th, they are disappearing. On the upside, tanks become much tougher to compltely knock out. It took 4 turns in my game for 1/8 vehicles to be destroyed using 5th ed rules.


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

So, its wacky, but I'd like to but in my two cents, or my 592pts.

It seemed stupid to me, but facing many a Tau army, I've always wanted 3 things: Infiltrating Melta guns, Bunches of Lightning claws, and Artificer armor to protect said guns and claws. So, my question is, can you put Lightning claws on a company Champion, a standard bearer, and/or an apothecary?

If so, then (I play BT, cause' preferred enemy gives us re-roll in CC now, so no need for a chaplin) a Marshal w/ Lightning claws, Terminus Honours + Artificer armor, an Apothecary w/ Lightning claws, Terminus Honours + Artificer armor, Company Champion w/ Lightning claws, Terminus Honours + Artificer armor, a standard bearer w/ Lightning claws, Terminus Honours + Artificer armor, a sergent w/ Lightning claws, Terminus Honours + Artificer armor, and 2 regular dudes with melta guns and Terminus Honours is simply better known as death. The 4 specialists have Re-rolls to hit AND re-rolls to wound for 4 power-weapon attacks on the charge?!? not to mention adding in the 5 attacks with the same characteristics for the commander... Sure it comes to a total of 586 for 7 guys with 19 real attacks; but 12 of those 19 will stick! AND they will never die! Artificer armor on the majority, the apothecary trick, and they start 12" - 18" away form the opponents tanks, heavy weapon squads, what have you, ends a game! They might even make back their points..? maybe... no...

If you want, you COULD drop the second melta-gunner and the artificer armor and be @ 456, shove them in a razorback and replace infiltrate with furious charge, but thats not nearly as wacky; heck, thats almost safe!


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

In 5th I forsee the Veteran Assault squads becomming the escort of choice for chaplains, and command squads changing to a cheap 5-man vet squad with no special skills.

That's how it is with blood angels now


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## LegendX (Jun 16, 2008)

Just wait for 5th to make any major decisions, less than 2 days.
patience is a virtue.


LX


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

actually, i'd the major changes are coming in the BOLS confirmed SM codex reprint in October. Funny, they wait for my birthday to ruin my year...


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

The issue here is cost versus effectiveness. The command squad can annihilate things i the right circumstances, however, the assault squad with chaplain will perform better overall, as it is 1)more mobile, and 2) cheaper. The command squad has the problem of being a small,expensive squad, where the assault squad is larger on average, and is able to make it's points back faster than the command squad. The ability to deep strike means the there is less slogging towards the enemy, they can drop on their heads.

both squads can be brought down by las guns with neither having any particular toughness/armor save advantage.the assault squads have the advantage in not being shot at aos much. A good compromise for BA players is to use a veteran assault squad, which has advantages of both.


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## sprldancer (Jul 11, 2008)

Bah but blood angels honor guard get gold helmets, which influence the dice, so yeah. Umm I win?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ironically, for BA the Veteran Assault Squads are the best unit to escort our HQs, while the Honour Guard are much better as a standalone unit (which, thankfully, they can be deployed without the character).

Our characters are combat monsters and a 5 man squad just won't cut it. You want an 8 man VAS at least. The VAS also has more efficient access to power weapons and specialist CCWs

The Honour Guard makes a better independent hit and run squad, using their superior firepower (they can have 2 plas pistols *and* 2 plasguns/meltaguns/flamers) and maneuverability to get them into key positions.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, the reason I take my Chaplain with an Assault squad is because, all of the above stated benefits combined with the No Mercy, No Respite chapter trait giving your Assault Marines Furious Charge makes for one powerful CC unit. It really takes a lot to stop fearless, furious charging assault marines. Of course it's a pricy unit but that helps balance out their hitting power. Not to mention the psychological effect it has on your opponent when you mow through his ranks of troops. Demoralizing the enemy is a large step toward victory. I'm not even gonna lie, I play to win. I don't know how to do anything else. I guess that makes me an assh*le, but anybody who says the don't like winning is a liar. All of the people I play with feel the same way.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Ironically, for BA the Veteran Assault Squads are the best unit to escort our HQs, while the Honour Guard are much better as a standalone unit (which, thankfully, they can be deployed without the character).
> 
> Our characters are combat monsters and a 5 man squad just won't cut it. You want an 8 man VAS at least. The VAS also has more efficient access to power weapons and specialist CCWs
> 
> The Honour Guard makes a better independent hit and run squad, using their superior firepower (they can have 2 plas pistols *and* 2 plasguns/meltaguns/flamers) and maneuverability to get them into key positions.


I agree.
the benefit the chappie adds, combined with the vet assault squad adds more attacks for the points than the termie honors in the honorguard.


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## Sniper (Mar 9, 2008)

give em Termie armour and lightning claws and put them in a LRC, then just sit back and watch the Chaos

Sniper


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