# 6th Edition Rumors (1st Post Updated 22 June 2012)



## Zion

With the White Dwarf and concrete information coming in now I've changed this to only reflect the confirmed changes. We've been speculating for a while now, it's about time we actually get to see what's going on, so for ease of reference it's all here (VERY big props to MadCowCrazy for all the hard work in getting this information to us as he didn't give us fuzzy scans that are impossible to read but instead copied it all into a readable format for us):

First up the new psychic powers and some product release information (for clarification: all these generic powers can be chosen instead of the ones in the codex (which races get which powers are listed in the White Dwarf and the BRB) but don't replace powers you don't pay for and are included as part of the unit's special rules/equipment/ect (like Hammerhand for the Grey Knights). From what has been seen so far you don't roll for these but instead choose them when you build your army):



MadCowCrazy said:


> Rulebook: £45, €60, 450dkr, 560skr, 560nkr, 450rmb, 225zl
> 
> 
> 
> Battlefield Objectives: The 12 six-sided Munitorum Battlefield Objectives are not dice, but rather a means of representing the location and significance of the myriad Primary and Secondary Mission Objectives used in the Eternal War scenarios. In addition, they can be used to denote the nature of a Mysterious Objective once revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> Vehicle Markers: The Munitorum Vehicle Markers are a quick and effective means of determining what damage a vehicle suffers when an attack has penetrated its armour, and serve as a visual reminder of any ongoing vehicle status effects. The set includes four AP 3 damage dice, two AP 2 Damage Dice, 2 AP 1 Damage Dice, two Hull Point counters and two Vehicle Status markers.
> 
> 
> 
> Psyhic Power Cards
> 
> Biomancy
> 
> Smite Range 12" - is a Witchfire
> 
> Iron Arm -something about Toughness
> 
> Enfeeble within 24" - suffers a -1, treats all terrain
> 
> Endurance within 24" - gains the Fe (Feel no Pain?), special rule
> 
> Life Leech Range 12" - If Life Leech, immediately, to his starting
> 
> Warp Speed - Attacks (Roll
> 
> 6. Haemorrhage - Haemorrhage is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 12". The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover save allowed. If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.
> 
> 
> 
> Divination
> 
> Prescience - within 12, can reroll
> 
> Foreboding - this power is, Counter-attack, full Ballistic, this does not, Overwatch
> 
> Forewarning - within 12", a 4+ invulnerable
> 
> Endurance from Biomancy listed....
> 
> Perfect Timing - have the Ig
> 
> Precognition - Hit and To Wound
> 
> 6. Scrier's Gaze - Scrier's Gaze is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll three dice and chose the result you want when rolling for Reserves, Outflank and mysterious terrain.
> 
> 
> 
> Pyromancy
> 
> Flame Breath - Template
> 
> Fiery Form - +2 strength, Blaze special
> 
> Fire Shield - within 24"
> 
> Inferno - Range 24"
> 
> 4. Spontaneous Combustion
> 
> Sunburst - Range 6
> 
> 6. Molten Beam - is a beam with the following profile Range 12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta
> 
> 
> 
> Telekinesis
> 
> Assail - Range 18"
> 
> Crush - is a f, Roll 2D6, equal to the, automatically, automatic, of a separate
> 
> Gaze of Infinity - 24", Deep Strike
> 
> 3. Objuration - a single enemy, rolls a 6, squadron)., with the H, for each).
> 
> Shockwave - Range 12"
> 
> Telekine Dome - within 12", invulnerable, power is in effect, AP equal
> 
> 6. Vortex of Doom - is a witchfire power with the following profile: Range 12" S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast* If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psyhick test, centre the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Psyker - in this case, the template does not scatter.
> 
> 
> 
> Telepathy
> 
> Psyhic Shriek - Roll 3D6, unit suffers, Armour and, caused by
> 
> Dominte - within 24", must pass a, shoot, Run, action is fo
> 
> Mental Fort(ification) - unit within, regroups
> 
> Puppet Master - of 24", as if it was, the Psyker, players control
> 
> Terrify - is a malediction, unit within, the Fearless, having the, Furthermore
> 
> Invisibility - within 24", Stealth special, gain no benefit, don't see it, Skill 1
> 
> 6. Hallucination - is a malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit).
> 
> D6 Result
> 
> 1-2 Bugs! I Hate Bugs! Something unspeakable has gotten under the victims armour and has begun to crawl around. The unit is automatically Pinned, unless it would normally automatically pass Pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
> 
> 3-4 Ermmm? All sense of urgency is lost, and the befuddled warrior just stare listlessly into space. The unit cannot shoot, Run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
> 
> 5-6 You! You're a Traitor! Paranoia set in and the panicked warriors lash out at thei comrades. Every model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on his own unit, resolved at that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any).
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Eldar Beastmaster and Beasts in finecast advance order from 14th July
> 
> Ork Special characters in finecast, adv order from 14th July
> 
> GK Brother Captain, Inquisitor with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol, Inquisitor with Inferno Pistol and Power Sword, adv order from 14th July


Next we have the confirmation of how the game is pushing to allow the players more options and the ability to create those moments that get told and retold:



MadCowCrazy said:


> There is Only WAR!
> 
> 
> 
> ...has sat decaying upon his Golden Throne, a sad relection of his once-glorious empire. Now the carcass of the Imperium is ready to fall, picked apart as ancient enemies stir and aliens threaten its borders, even as apostates and heretics undermine it from within.
> 
> 
> 
> Forging a Narrative
> 
> In 40k there's nothing more important than being able to tell a story as you play, or as we've called it in the rulebook, Forging a Narrative. With that in mind, there are a number of rules to accommodate how individual models can make a difference to the battle without bogging the game down. Some of these rules are quite subtle, such as characters being able to pick out individual targets; others are more obvious and integral to the game, like challenging your opponent to a duel.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever imagined how cool it would be to bring down a Monstrous Creature by throwing a krak grenade into its mouth? Well, you can! Have you ever wanted your army's commander to call out a rival and engage him in a duel to the death so that you may settle a grudge from a previous encounter? You can do that too!
> 
> There are a number of special rules that have been included entirely for the cinematic imagery that they bring to the tabletop.
> 
> The Hammer of Wrath special rule, for example, allows jump units to leap into combat and crush their foes beneath their armoured bulk as they hurtle down from above.
> 
> Similarly, Flying Monstrous Creatures can deliver a deadly Vector Strike as they swoop over their enemies, tearing heads from shoulders with taloned limbs as they do so.
> 
> Even a unit's desperate actions as charging enemies bear down on them is represented by the ability to make an Overwatch attack - a free round of shooting, but at Ballistic Skill 1.
> 
> 
> 
> Allies & Fortifications
> 
> We expanded the Force Organistation Chart to allow players to represent just such a situation on the battlefield, featuring the option to include an allied detachment as part of your standard army. Not wishing to stop there, we also included a choice of fortifications that enable players to reinforce their deployment zones with defensive emplacements, ranging from a linked section of Aegis defence lines to the mighty Fortress of Redemption.
> 
> 
> 
> Skyshield Landing Pads can be positioned to coordinate the arrival of your reinforcement with utmost accuracy. Many fortifications can be further augmented with a comms relay or turret-mounted anti-aircraft weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Each army is led by a Warlord - a powerful, charismatic leader that represents you on the battlefield. Before every game, your Warlord makes a roll on one of the Warlord Trait tables - Command, Personal and Strategic Traits.
> 
> 
> 
> Some scenery types are therefore Mysterious Terrain, only revealed as flesh-searing fireblood rivers or forests of overgrown spinethorn when a unit enters its area of effect.
> 
> The Battles section of the rulebook also includes a Warzone Traits table, introducing optional rules for fighting in unusual or abnormal environments. Change things up by fighting on a high or lower-gravity battlefield or, if you're feeling particularly brave, try waging war as your forces are assailed by a planet's corrosive atmosphere or toxic mist.
> 
> 
> 
> There are six Eternal War scenarios, each with its own mission objectives to achieve. In many of the scenarios there are a number of objectives to contest. Some of these may house useful technology such as a targeting relay or grav wave generator, but it's also possible for an objective to have been sabotaged with proximity mines.
> 
> 
> 
> Under normal corcumstances, only Troops units can control objectives, but in the Big Guns Never Tire mission, for example, your Heavy Support units can capture them too, even if they are vehicles!
> 
> 
> 
> In each scenario, players can also attempt to complete any of the three Secondary Objectives too:
> 
> Slay the Warlord, by killing the commander of the enemy army
> 
> First Blood, by being the first to destroy an enemy unit
> 
> Linebreaker, by storming the enemy's deployment zone.
> 
> 
> 
> Hobbyists are introduced to a series of unique scenarios that also serve to encourage and inspire players to generate their own campaign and mission ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> At the rear of the rulebook lies the Appendices section, replete with handy reference sheets that include the statistics for every weapon and unit in the game (including every vehicle's Hull Points).
> 
> The Appendices also feature thirty new powers from five psyhic disciplines that Psykers can choose to generate their power from. (Is this a typo? The psyhic power cards have 34 different powers listed, 35 being the most likely as a Biomancy power was listed twice).
> 
> 
> 
> Having a Blast
> 
> That it's the guy in the front of your squad who always takes the first bullet is not only very cinematic, but makes you think a lot more about every move you make. I also love the fact that units are reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 when resolving Overwatch.
> 
> But ultimately, there's nothing quite as satisfying for me as yelling 'Grenade!' as your heroic Sergeant tosses a frag grenade and blasts your opponents favourite squad to smithereenes!





MadCowCrazy said:


> Dreadnoughts 3 Hull points
> 
> 
> 
> Jump packs re-roll the 2D6" charge distance in the Assault phase.
> 
> Rage gives +2 attacks on charge (seems Rage isn't renamed)
> 
> 
> 
> In the Chaos Daemons army everything causes Fear, which is nicely representative of their horror. But thats not nearly as exciting as the Flying Monstrous Creature rules. These allow my Bloodthrister and Daemon Princes to soar up to 24" across the tabletop, ignoring all but the most dedicated anti-aircraft weapons as they get ready to assault the puny mortals below.
> 
> 
> 
> Soul Grinder and Land Raiders have 4 Hull Points
> 
> 
> 
> Bikes and Landspeeders have Jink, gives them a 5+cover save and 4+ if they Turbo-boost or move Flat Out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foreboding: Allows the affected squad to fire at an assaulting unit at their full Ballistic Skill rather than BS1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, his psyhic hood will usually augment any rolls to Deny the Witch within 6" to a 4+ making hime awesome at countering any enemy psychic powers.
> 
> 
> 
> About Terminators...
> 
> anything short of a power fist or power axe just won't cut it in combat, meaning they'll benefit from their 2+ armour save most of the time.
> 
> GK Terminators are equipped with frag and krak grenades, meaning they can throw one during the Shooting phase.
> 
> 
> 
> About IG squad...
> 
> Perhaps the coolest part of the rules is that every man counts, as they can all move and fire (even the lascannon!), and can even make a valiant last stand when they're charged, overwatching with their lasguns at the incoming foe.
> 
> 
> 
> Saying that, I'm told that the Deathmarks are quite nasty, as snipers can select targets if they roll a 6 To Hit!
> 
> 
> 
> Necron Warriors have always been implacable on the advance, but as they're now able to rapid fire at long range as they move this is doubly true.
> 
> 
> 
> Ghost Arks have 4 hull points, Gauss takes off a Hull Point for every 6 rolled to penetrate.
> 
> 
> 
> Example of Land Raider shooting 4 weapons (it can fire one flamestorm cannon normally, another using its machine-spirit and then snap fire both the assault cannon and the multi-melta). Doesn't say anything about snap fire BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Tau Fire Warrior example. not only can they move and still rapid fire up to 30" away, making them higly mobile as the background suggests, but they can Overwatch these S5 guns if they're charged.
> 
> My Battlesuit is great as well - he provies nigh-on impossible to engage, as can scoot up to 2D6" way with his jetpack in the Assault phase.
> 
> 
> 
> MC are AP2, can halve attacks and perform Smash at double Strength.





MadCowCrazy said:


> Eternal War Mission table:
> Mission 4: The Scouring
> Place 6 Primary Objective markers face down on the table. These objective would be worth between 1 and 4 Victory Points for the side that controlled them, but, the value would not be revealed till after deployment.
> In addition there were three Secondary Objectives - Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker and First Blood - each worth a single Victory Point. In this scenario, Fast Attack units also counted as scoring units, but are worth 1 Victory Point if destroyed.
> 
> Psyhic Power: Telekine Dome (not Domination that I thought)
> 
> Command Trait: Inspiring Presence - units within 12" can use Warlords Leadership
> 
> Personal Trait: Immovable Object - Warlord can capture objectives
> 
> FNP: Ignore any wounds on a 5+ that don't inflict Instant Death (so power weapons etc make no difference).
> 
> MC Vector Strike: D3+1 hits at the model's Strength on a unit moved over.
> 
> Interceptor rule: Allowed to shoot at a unit as it arrives from reserves
> Skyfire rule: Can shoot at fliers at normal BS, rather than BS1
> 
> Deployment Zone: Hammer and Anvil - Fight along the length of the table, deploy on the short table edges.
> 
> Mysterious Terrain: Psychneuein Hive - Every Psyker on the board immediately suffers D3 S3 AP2 hits
> 
> Reserves: Flyers always arrive from reserve, 3+ to enter on Turn 2
> 
> Deep Strike Misshap Table: Opponent Places unit and back into reserve are still in (unit dies gone?)
> 
> Charging Multiple units: You lose the bonus Attack for charging and all units can Overwatch shoot you.
> 
> Flying Transports: If shot down all embarked models suffer a S10 hit with no saves allowed (not even invulnerable?)
> Passengers can't disembark whilst it's zooming, during hover mode they can disembark but the flier can now be hit at normal BS.
> 
> Fleet: Re-roll charge distance
> 
> Bastions: Armour 14 all around, and an emplaced heavy bolter on each facing - automated weapons that target the nearest enemy unit. A Bastion can be used as neutral battlefield terrain or selected as a Fortification as part of the FOC, enabling you to deploy within a solid defensive stronghold. A Bastion can be upgraded with a comms relay or heavy weapons on its battlements.
> 
> Tank Traps: Impassible terrain to all non-Skimmer vehicles. Bike can attempt to manoeuvre past them, but must pass a difficult terrain test in order to do so. Against all other units, however, tank traps are treated as open ground, though and models hidden behind a set of tank traps can still claim a 4+ cover save from its solid, robust frame.
> 
> Aegis Defence Lines: Offer a 4+ cover save, but any unit that decides to Go to Ground behind a defence line gains +2 to its cover save, rather than +1. An Aegis defence line may also be selected as a Fortification choice.
> 
> Mysterious Forests: Models within a forest's boundary benefit from a 5+ cover save. However, forests are also mysterious terrain, so as soon as a unit enters a forest, you must roll on the Mysterious Forest table to discover what fate awaits your hapless models. Mysterious forests can range from brainleaf fronds, the sentient tendrils of which can dominate living beings and cause them to lash out at their comrades, to carnivorous jungle, which inflicts D3 S5 hits on any unit seeking shelter beneath its boughs.
> 
> Ruins: All ruins are treated as difficult terrain, but offer a 4+ cover save to those concealed within their shattered structute.
> 
> Wild Undergrowth: Difficult terrain and 5+ cover
> 
> Imperial Statuary: IG, SoB and all SM chapters are Fearless within 2" of an Imperial statuary (if you are wondering what the hell a statuary is it's a statue, model in example is the SM dude holding a sword statue GW came out with last year, or was it the year before that. Guess they didn't sell so they had to include them in the rulebook....).
> 
> Fuel Reserves: 5+ cover, every time a model successfully passes a cover save, roll a D6. On the roll of a 1, the barrel was filled with fuel and explodes, inflicting a S3 hit on any models nearby.
> 
> Fortress of Redemption: Comprising two bunker annexes, one main tower and housing an assortment of powerful weapons to defend against assault by land or by air, a Fortress of Redemption is all but unassailable. For 220 points, this awesome defensive stronghold can even be selected as a Fortification!.
> 
> Impact Craters: Area Terrain and grant 5+ cover





MadCowCrazy said:


> Assault on Fellstorm Airfield
> Scenario: The Relic
> Recover a valuable relic from no-man's-land that will help them to gin the upper hand in the ongoing conflict. The relic begins the game in the centre of the battlefield, but any scoring unit (in this mission units from the Troops section of the Force Organisation Chart) (I guess this means the Immovable Object Scoring Warlord power can't be used?) can pick it up and attempt to move it to safety. The unit carrying the relic cannot move more than 6" in a single phase and will drop the relic if killed.
> 
> Deployment Vanguard Strike: Diagonal deployment zone trunning through the centre of the board. (Top right vs bottom left side with the relic in the middle pretty much. Same as Apocalypse if you've ever played that.)
> 
> Flat Out and Run: D6 extra movement
> 
> Stunned Dreadnoughts can still Snap Shot, Snap Shots need 6s To Hit.
> 
> Krak grenade used in the shooting phase to destroy an Ork Trukk.
> 
> Still Move, Shoot and Assault as the above unit assaulted the boys that disembarked from the Trukk.
> 
> Flamers do D3 hits during Overwatch (Have fun charging 15 Burna Boys)
> 
> Fliers can chose to Evade when shot at giving them a 5+ cover save, but can only Snap Fire during their next shooting phase. Can leave the board and return from reserves.
> "Da Krimson Barun, only able to fire Snap Shots having evaded last turn, gunned his engines and zoomed off the board, but would return as part of Ongoing Reserves in the following Movement Phase. (This happens during turn 3-4, does that mean reserves are now 3+ for turn 2, 2+ for turn 3, automatic on turn 4?)
> 
> Fliers can shoot Fliers with no penalties to hit. Explains the 60" ranged Stormtalon missiles.
> 
> Fliers: When destroyed scatter and damage units on ground.
> "But Steve did have the last laugh when the wreckage of his Stormtalon spiralled earthwards to land directly on top of the Ork Bastion, killing three Ork Boyz in the ensuing explosion.
> 
> Units with a sergeant type model can perform Look Out, Sir, 4+ if model is not an IC (example used, Ork boy trying to save Nob...well, the nob grabbing an Ork boy to use as a bullet shield is the more likely scenario...).





MadCowCrazy said:


> More Finecast
> 
> Tau: Commander Shadowsun
> Krootox
> Available for pre-order July14th
> 
> 
> Divination
> 1. Foreboding - is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit have the Counter-attack special rule and fire Overwatch on their full Ballistic Skill, rather than Ballistic Skill 1. Note that this does not allow weapons that could not normally fire Overwatch to do so.
> 
> Interesting note on the Hour of the Witch page.
> "Only the armies (and units within those armies) specifically mentioned here can access the new psychic powers. Some armies (namely the Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau) don't have psykers at all, whilst other races harness the Warp in such an unusual way (Orks and Chaos Daemons in particular) that they always use their own unique rules.
> 
> Why wasn't Sisters of Battle mentioned in the above exclusion together with DE, Nec and Tau? Knowing GW it's most likely a miss as when it comes to the SoB they can't even spell their rules correctly or show the correct model with the correct weapon...
> If this is not a miss then I guess it's proof that we will have Inquisitors in the SoB codex as I can't think of any other Psyker the SoB would even tolerate.
> 
> Hour of the Witch
> Witchfire: most psykers can't use more than one witchfire each turn
> 
> Codex: Blood Angels
> A BA Lib (inc Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.
> 
> Codex: Chaos Space Marines
> Any model with psychic powers may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40K rulebook, instead of those in Codex: CSM. If he does so, for each psychic power he has purchased from Codex:CSM, generate a new power from the Pyromancy, Telekinesis or Telepathy discipline before armies are deployed. A model can generate powers from different disciplines if you wish. Typhus generates two new powers. Ahriman generates three.
> 
> Codex: Dark Angels
> A DA Lib (inc Ezekiel) may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k rulebook. Generate 2 new powers from Div, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis.
> 
> Codex: Eldar
> Farseer (inc Eldrad), for each power bought, generate a new power from Div or Telepathy. Eldrad generates 4.
> 
> Codex: GK
> A GK Lib (no mentions of anyone else), generate a number of powers equal to mastery level from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis. If he does so he may not purchase additional powers. Hammerhand cannot be exchanged in this manner.
> An Inquisitor with Mastery 1 can generate 1 power from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis.
> Coteaz can generate 2 powers from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis.
> 
> Codex: IG
> Primaris Psyker, generate 2 new powers from Bio, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis.
> 
> Codex: SM
> SM Lib (inc Tigurius), generate 2 powers from Bio, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis. Tigurius generates 3.
> 
> Codex: SW
> Rune Priest (inc Njal), generate 2 powers from Bio, Div or Telekinesis
> 
> Codex: Tyranids
> Any model with psychic powers, for each psychic power it has, including those purchased, generate a new power from either Bio, Telekinses or Telepathy. (I'm glad they dont have Pyromancy as 3 Zoanthropes casting Molten Beam would be real nasty).
> 
> 
> Article states: "Accordingly, players should feel free to use the guidance in this article to grant their psykers access to the new powers."
> Sounds good and all but since they dont list all the powers and what they do the article is pretty useless. Or....do they mean you have to have this WD in order to be able to use the generic powers? Wont the list and rules be in the BRB?
> 
> 
> Wound Allocation: Closest model is Shooting only?
> 
> 
> Rest of the WD is ads pretty much.
> 
> Last page is a picture of some CSM and Daemons.
> In next month's issue: BATTLE-BROTHERS AND INFERNAL ALLIES - We take a closer look at Allied Detachments.
> WD 392 on sale Sat 28th of July.
> 
> 
> If you have a question and it hasn't been answered by anything I've written so far then there is simply no answer in the WD. I've gone trough the WD page by page, article by article to fish out as much info as I could. If you dont have your answer you will have to wait for the BRB.


I put GW's high definition video and pictures from their blog to good use and here's what I gathered (everything inside quotes was taken from the rulebook):


Zion said:


> Hull Points - "Every vehicle has a number of hull points indicating how much damage it can take before it is destroyed." _So I'm guessing it works like wounds, but there wasn't anything listed on that bit about if they can be insta-killed._
> 
> Flyers (there was a bunch here but I'm only going to list the stuff I could read all of so I don't misinterpret anything that was only partially visible):
> Aerial Support - "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves."
> 
> Zoom - "If a Flyer Zooms it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36"."...."A Zooming Flyer can never voluntarilly move less than 18"." (If it somehow is forced to during it's movement phase it is destroyed)..."Zooming Flyers can make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degress before moving."...."Zooming Flyers can not Tank Shock or Ram nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed."...."Zooming Flyers can use up to four weapons if moving at Combat Speed or Cruising Speed."..."Zooming Flyers cannot be Assaulted."
> 
> Additionally the new rulebook is about 2", putting it at roughly the same size as the Fantasy one.
> 
> And both glancing and penetrating hits against armor exist, but how they work were not shown.


MadCowCrazy spent some more time with the teaser video and gleaned more information that I did:



MadCowCrazy said:


> Flyers
> 
> Aerial Support
> Flyers must being the game in Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.
> 
> Flyers and Measuring
> Flyers have flying bases that suspend them above the battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer's hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of the Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when:
> 
> -The Flyer is being assaulted, in which case the models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.
> 
> -Models are embarking or disembarking from the Flyer, in which case the base of the Flyer is used as the Access Point.
> 
> Flyers and other Models
> Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.
> 
> Zoom
> Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds making it very difficult to shoot down, but limiting its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and Cruising Speed of 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18". If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.
> 
> To represent its limited manoeuvrability, a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves. Thereafter, it must move directly forwards in a straight line. In a turn in which a Flyer enter the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again. A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassible terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassible terrain. Finally, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
> 
> Zoom, Tank Shock and Ramming
> Zooming Flyers cannot Tank Shock or Ram nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed.
> 
> Zooming and Shooting
> Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.
> 
> Assaulting Zooming Flyers
> Due to their high speed (and presumably high altitude)...
> Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted.
> 
> Leaving Combat Airspace
> It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will....
> the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens
> the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters
> Ongoing Reserves (see page 125). A Flyer that leaves combat
> airspace must Zoom back on when it returns from Ongoing
> Reserves, even if it has the Hover type.
> 
> Flyers and Damage Results
> Zooming Flyers follow the exceptions given below.
> 
> Locked Velocity
> If a Zooming Flyer suffers an Immobilised result, its velocity is
> locked. A Flyer with Locked Velocity cannot change speed
> for the rest of the game, but must continue to Zoom at
> Combat Speed or Cruising Speed (whichever it was using when
> it suffered the Immobilised result). Once a Flyer's velocity is
> locked, it cannot Evade and cannot move Flat Out, however
> with Locked Velocity you can still turn before it moves as normal
> and if it leaves the board will enter Ongoing Reserves.
> 
> Crash and Burn
> If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, its flaming hull
> rains down on the battlefield. Centre a large blast marker
> over the Flyer - it then scatters 2D6". Any models under the
> blast marker's final position suffers a Strength 6, AP- hit. The
> Flyer is the taken off the board. If the Flyer is also a transport
> any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves
> allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the
> marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that
> cannot be placed are removed as casualites.





MadCowCrazy said:


> Allies
> Unforeseen alliances happen all the time in the murky world of Warhammer 40,000. The Eldar might assist the Tau in destroying a Tyranid invasion, knowing that if they don't the vassals of the Hive Mind will destroy a Craftworld. An Imperial Guard general might hire Orks of the Bloodaxe clan, little realising that his Chaos Space Marine enemies have already struck a similar arrangement with the selfsame greenskins. The possibilities are endless! From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up entirely new tactical possibilities, making your already formidable force even more so.
> 
> Levels of Alliance
> Of course, in the grim darkness of the far future (where there is only war), it's a sad fact that very few armies trust one another entirely - if a all. A labyrinthine history of grudges, wars, campaigns and betrayals (intentional or otherwise) have the....
> 
> Allies of Convenience
> The tides of war can often throw unlikely allies together
> forcing them to work in common cause for a time. Such
> alliances seldom last for an entire battle, let alone a campaign
> but that brief while can be sufficient for immediate ne...
> 
> Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy
> units that cannot be charged, shot, targetted with psychic
> powers or have templates or blast markers placed over.
> However, if a psychic power, scattering Blast weapon or other
> ability that affects an area hits some of these Allies of Convenience
> they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units. This
> means that, for example, Allies of Convenience units:
> 
> -Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied ch...
> -Cannot be joined by allied Independent Characters



More to come as we get it!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Now lets hope those floodgates open soon :crazy:


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Now lets hope those floodgates open soon :crazy:



True that. I just hope when they open I can keep up!


----------



## Arcane

The "leaked" cover photo doesn't look legit. It doesn't say 'rulebook' or follow the typical style of GW. My guess is, it's something other than the BRB.


----------



## Ninjurai

lol 6th ed digital copy will be released on 23rd everyone else has to preorder. THAT is how they will convince you to buy the digi-copy.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

There is just a lack of hammer for me. Normally the rulebook over the last two editions had some sort of symbology on it rather than a full ongoing battle.


----------



## SGMAlice

nevynxxx said:


> So up thread there was a little bit of a spreadhsheet posted that had an entry for "Cut and past facebook status" as part of the build up from nowish.... I'm thinking we are seeing these now...
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bury Store on Facebook
> +++++++ incoming message +++++++
> ++ Planet Designation M41:137:39 ++
> .........
> ..
> +++++++ Mission Directive +++++++
> +++ Secure Planetary Resources +++
> ++++++++ Incoming Xenos +++++++
> So:
> 
> 1) Is buryjust making stuff up?
> 2) If not, are all stores posting the same things?
> 3) If not, is someone keeping track of them all to collate?
> 4) Do we know which planet that is?



In reference to the post above, as the thread was moved to Rumour Roundup before i could reply to it:


To me that looks like a Date rather than a Planet Designation, as it states. I have done a bit of searching and found nothing to indicate a Planet with the designation attached. Going on it being a Date reveals little also; No major events took place at that time.

There is one close, that being M41:139, the date on which the Planet Destroyer (Abbadons Flagship) was completed. There is only one other major Event that took place near to the date: 'The Dark Heresy' on M41:126.

Not even the Imperial Armor books use that code set for Planet designations and they have extensive information on each one they describe.

It could be a completely new Event in the WH40k universe :dunno:

Alice


----------



## mcmuffin

Could be abby obliterating terra . . .unlikely . . . . . we can only hope i guess


----------



## Zion

Ninjurai said:


> lol 6th ed digital copy will be released on 23rd everyone else has to preorder. THAT is how they will convince you to buy the digi-copy.


No rumor puts the digi-copy as coming out when the starter box does: September.


----------



## TechPr1est

man if that ork clan dissolvy thing is true than that will totally fuck up my half finshed army covered in snake bites icons


----------



## mcmuffin

That ork clan thing rumour is 14 years old


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> That ork clan thing rumour is 14 years old


Yup, that's why I added the big red text explaining that it was wrong. I only kept it up because when the 6th edition rumors were still pretty fresh it was kicking around pretty hard.


----------



## Ninjurai

Zion said:


> No rumor puts the digi-copy as coming out when the starter box does: September.


 first off its still a rumor so how do you know secondly i lol'd cuz it was a joke


----------



## Zion

Ninjurai said:


> first off its still a rumor so how do you know secondly i lol'd cuz it was a joke


I mentioned it's a rumor, but it's more plausible than the 23rd being preorders for the digi-copy (yes this has come up as an actual rumor before). And secondly, joke or not I was mentioning it for clarification so we don't get a later post asking about that.


----------



## Ninjurai

You killed my buzz....


----------



## Karyudo-DS

mcmuffin said:


> That ork clan thing rumour is 14 years old


And watch GW take a 14 year old rumor and just toss it in. 



Ninjurai said:


> You killed my buzz....


Hmm...to bad.


----------



## Arcane

Really disappointing at the uninspired generic cover artwork. You would think that after all these years GW could hire a decent artist to come up with something better than a Space Marine with a weapon in battle with a bunch of other generic Space Marines running around him. Zzzzzzz


----------



## Zion

Arcane said:


> Really disappointing at the uninspired generic cover artwork. You would think that after all these years GW could hire a decent artist to come up with something better than a Space Marine with a weapon in battle with a bunch of other generic Space Marines running around him. Zzzzzzz


If they did that we'd probably get two Space Marines with weapons in battle as other generic Space Marines rush about them.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> If they did that we'd probably get two Space Marines with weapons in battle as other generic Space Marines rush about them.


What, there's people still expecting to _not_ have Space Marines shoved in everyone's face? How silly of them.

At any rate, the cover looks like absolute meh to me. Generic dark colours, generic grimdark feel, Space Marines, it's so bland an uninspired it could be the box art of a modern FPS game.


----------



## imm0rtal reaper

Arcane said:


> Really disappointing at the uninspired generic cover artwork. You would think that after all these years GW could hire a decent artist to come up with something better than a Space Marine with a weapon in battle with a bunch of other generic Space Marines running around him. Zzzzzzz


Couldn't agree more. I would have been fine it was a codex cover. But I would have like something less marine-y on the cover. A stylised, broken aquilla would have been cool. Hint at the chaos in the starter set and it would reflect how fucked everything is in the present lore!


----------



## bitsandkits

I prefer this cover to be honest, the last few have been very bland hence the term BGB, the cover shows a shift towards the borderless warhammer army book style,which would tie in with any move to hard back codexs being in our future.


----------



## humakt

Hardback codexes would be a good thing as well, although I will want to get both a full size rule book and the mini rules when the starter box set comes out.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So Dark Angels vs what?


----------



## bitsandkits

Words_of_Truth said:


> So Dark Angels vs what?


The Donkey Empire


----------



## Gret79

bitsandkits said:


> The Donkey Empire


Are they based in 'the shores of blackpool'?

Which is like the eye of terror, only colder, scarier with more drunks?


----------



## bitsandkits

Gret79 said:


> Are they based in 'the shores of blackpool'?
> 
> Which is like the eye of terror, only colder, scarier with more drunks?


i think one of there covens resides in the pool of black, but they are everywhere, you should take care, you never know when they might strike, they come without warning aside from a sound akin to the striking of two empty coconut halves fill the air.

tis a true tale


----------



## SGMAlice

bitsandkits said:


> i think one of there covens resides in the pool of black, but they are everywhere, you should take care, you never know when they might strike, they come without warning aside from a sound akin to the striking of two empty coconut halves fill the air.
> 
> tis a true tale


a'la Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I know that sound well! But lets not go there... it is a silly place. :laugh:

As for the book cover, i still have my doubts about it, as something looks wrong with the image. And i prefered the simple Hammer/Skull and Logo covers.

Alice


----------



## bitsandkits

SGMAlice said:


> i prefered the simple Hammer/Skull and Logo covers.


thats so last edition:wink:,the cover is likely to match the cover of the starter set as it looks like its DA to give a unified look, but i suppose at the end of the day its gonna be whats inside the cover that really defines this edition,i might take a month away from the forums after release day because there will be copious amounts of bitching as people are left scratching there heads about the changes etc, people will be saying how much better 5th was ,people will says bull because of xyz, and then eventually people will settle down.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SGMAlice said:


> As for the book cover, i still have my doubts about it, as something looks wrong with the image. And i prefered the simple Hammer/Skull and Logo covers.
> 
> Alice


But the simple hammer/skull cover has a horribly complex battle in the background!


----------



## humakt

bitsandkits said:


> i might take a month away from the forums after release day because there will be copious amounts of bitching as people are left scratching there heads about the changes etc, people will be saying how much better 5th was ,people will says bull because of xyz, and then eventually people will settle down.


The 6th edition threads are already getting very bitchy about what may or may not be in the big book.


----------



## SGMAlice

:laugh: Yes, it is so last edition, last two or three in fact (I forget  )

But i still like it regardless of what actually may or may not happen regarding this Edition. I will most likely simply stay away form those threads, or as best i can anyway as it is likely to spill over into even the most incongrous thread.

Myself and my Gaming group will take our own time in assessing the new Edition. We have been palying together for a very long time now so any disagreements will simply result in a round of whisky and a shoot out :laugh: it lessens the tension and gives us something to laugh at. We probably take 40k a little too seriously sometimes 

Alice


----------



## Zion

humakt said:


> The 6th edition threads are already getting very bitchy about what may or may not be in the big book.


And that's why I find myself preaching common sense and restraint all the time. Rumors may look bad, or out of place for the moment, but it's sure to change as things become clearer and we see more of what's going on. And even when the rules come out the full scope of what the changes will do the game won't be completely apparently for quite some time. Rules are like shoes, they take a while to break in completely.


----------



## Bindi Baji

humakt said:


> The 6th edition threads are already getting very bitchy about what may or may not be in the big book.


The internet is an endless wave of people complaining, people complaining about people complaining and things being generally complained about
the best ways to avoid this are;

1: Avoiding the internet
2: Mass murder/genocide
3: Move to China where complaining won't be tolerated unless you do it under your breath and get stared at by everyone for mumbling incoherently


----------



## bitsandkits

humakt said:


> The 6th edition threads are already getting very bitchy about what may or may not be in the big book.


Plus nobody is thinking of the children, wont somebody think of the children !



Whats weird to me is i always look foward to a new book coming out , normally it allows me a few games grace where im on equal footing and stand a chance of winning a game before my buddies have worked out how best to use the new rules against me ! Bastards


----------



## humakt

bitsandkits said:


> Whats weird to me is i always look foward to a new book coming out , normally it allows me a few games grace where im on equal footing and stand a chance of winning a game before my buddies have worked out how best to use the new rules against me ! Bastards


Does that mean you have a month of neither of you knowing the rules properly?

I always look forward to a new set of rules. It freshens up the game and makes it more interesting. 

I did read on one of these threads they will be having futuristic looking 40k templates and a servo skull tape measure. Has anybody else heard any concrete rumours regarding these?


----------



## Pssyche

Well, as a Litmus Test, I got a friend to just post the picture onto Games Workshop Manchester's Facebook page.
It was taken down almost instantly by them.

I reckon it's legitimate.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SGMAlice said:


> :laugh: Yes, it is so last edition, last two or three in fact (I forget  )
> 
> Alice


I posted this about a billion times but 3rd had a Black Templar battle on it. Which is why the new one is familiar to me I skipped forth.



Zion said:


> And that's why I find myself preaching common sense and restraint all the time. Rumors may look bad, or out of place for the moment, but it's sure to change as things become clearer and we see more of what's going on. And even when the rules come out the full scope of what the changes will do the game won't be completely apparently for quite some time. Rules are like shoes, they take a while to break in completely.


Change is good. Obviously. At least im fairly certain we weren't playing 4th ed a decade ago. Not that they couldn't ruin the game but some changes here a there aren't going to make it unplayable. Might make it what some of us don't want to play but im not to worried.



Bindi Baji said:


> 3: Move to China where complaining won't be tolerated unless you do it under your breath and get stared at by everyone for mumbling incoherently


Or North Korea and both censor the internet enough for you.


----------



## Bindi Baji

humakt said:


> I did read on one of these threads they will be having futuristic looking 40k templates and a servo skull tape measure. Has anybody else heard any concrete rumours regarding these?


There are indeed servo skull tape measures in limited numbers,
I think I may have heard of the templates as well but i'm not 100% sure


----------



## bitsandkits

humakt said:


> Does that mean you have a month of neither of you knowing the rules properly?


at least a month, normally we fumble around around the new rules like a horny teenager in the dark until someone says "fuck it" i will read the rules and teach you lot to play. Its always been that way, then that person knows the rules better than everyone else and normally strings together a winning streak, at that point someone else will say "fuck it im gonna read this shit as im sure hes not telling us everything" rinse and repeat ,im not sating this method will work for everyone but its served us well for over 20 years so why change.


----------



## SGMAlice

Karyudo-DS said:


> I posted this about a billion times but 3rd had a Black Templar battle on it. Which is why the new one is familiar to me I skipped forth.



4th & 5th both had the Hammer/Skull cover. So what? It makes little difference to me. It was amusing nothing more. Why are you getting so defensive? 

Alice


----------



## maddermax

humakt said:


> Does that mean you have a month of neither of you knowing the rules properly?
> 
> I always look forward to a new set of rules. It freshens up the game and makes it more interesting.
> 
> I did read on one of these threads they will be having futuristic looking 40k templates and a servo skull tape measure. Has anybody else heard any concrete rumours regarding these?


I think they'll have the templates and all as they did for Fantasy 2 years ago. Fantasy got special templates and dice with the preorder kit IIRC, so templates and a tape measure is definitely a believable rumour.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Teaser 2 up


----------



## Doelago

I hope they bring out an amazing Collectors Edition of 6th. I wants it. 

On a totally related note, bought the 5th Edition Rulebook a few hours ago. :laugh:


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Teaser 2 up
> 
> Teaser No. 2 - YouTube


Added to the first post. I couldn't figure out how you embedded the video so I added the link to the GW article.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Videos should just embed themselves, usually...just post the direct link, as per.


----------



## mcmuffin

That appears to be an astropath. Interesting. FUCK YOU JUNE 23RD, ARRIVE ALREADY!


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> That appears to be an astropath. Interesting. FUCK YOU JUNE 23RD, ARRIVE ALREADY!


Aye. GW comments calls this "Psychic Interference" and then says "it appears to be some sort of psyker". No, REALLY? I think you gave it away with the blog post title.

In all seriousness though, anyone have any idea who it might be or if they're even part of any known organizations? I'm sure there are clues there we may not be seeing (or at least some red herrings) yet.


----------



## fynn

Looking at him, i would say maybe a chaos Psyker?


----------



## mcmuffin

Derp, did i say astropath? i meant a navigator. It is a navigator


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SGMAlice said:


> 4th & 5th both had the Hammer/Skull cover. So what? It makes little difference to me. It was amusing nothing more. Why are you getting so defensive?
> 
> Alice


Nothing defensive about skipping 4th ed. Unless it was terrible or something but of course I have 5th. You just said you weren't sure how many editions and I pointed it out. That's all.


----------



## Zion

More rumor stuffs:

Found on Warseer:


> My FLGS just posted this on facebook (prices in US $):
> Rule book $74.25
> Munitorum Templates $19.75
> Servo Skull Tape Measure $16.50
> Psychic Powers (English) 32 Cards, Leaflet $13.25
> Munitorum Dice 12 Dice, 6 Dice Holders, Tin $16.50
> Munitorum Battlefield Objectives $16.50
> Munitorum Vehicle Markers 12 Dice $16.50
> Gamers' Edition (English) Rulebook, Dice Set, Satchel $123.75
> Collectors' Edition Rulebook $132.00


Yeah....I really wonder what's different about the Collector's edition to make it so costly. Does it come with a free Bolter or something? This may end up costing me more than I thought from the looks of things.

Oh! I just had a fun thought, if Chainfists are AP1, and Eviscerators count as Chainfists, and ASSUMING that there is no change to this, Repentia just got even better since they'll be S6, AP1 with 2D6 Vehicle Pen. I can TOTALLY dig that since it'd make it SO much easier to pop vehicles with them (wrecking vehicles on a 4+ if the chart doesn't change works for me!). :biggrin:

EDIT: Thanks for fixing the videos in the first post MadCowCrazy!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Will we be seeing some new templates?
Currently the US prices are Universal Templates $13.25

The Fantasy ones that are basically the same thing are $13.25 as well but with all the extra stuff on them that blocks your line of sight...

I remember reading about hand flamer templates perhaps returning. Personally I'd like to see the vehicle flamer template returning and the current one being used for all infantry flamers as the Strength value is what balances them out.

Nothing of this sounds too interesting to me but if I can get a good tape measure that isn't just a rubber gimmick I might get one though I dont really need one.
I have the GF9 Vehicle damage markers which are ALLOT better than the current GW ones with icons that you can't clearly tell what are from more than 3feet.

Was there a special template release with Fantasy? I mean a more expensive one? I remember a turn counter or was that for Dread Fleet?

Found this, but was all the extra stuff just for the bag version or could you get a special templates pack as well?


----------



## humakt

Not sure I want all the crap they are selling. If the rule book is going to be around £50 I reckon I can get the measure and templates as well. I certainly am not paying £80 or £90 for a collectors edition rule book.


----------



## Doelago

Wow, bloody fucking hell. My estimated price tags just went up through Nurgle`s arse. Fuck. 

*FUCK. *


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just talked to the guy who orders the GW stuff to the local toystore and when I asked him about the templates he had been told the news ones will be gray. He wasn't told anything about there being any special templates but I wouldn't rule out GW making some "krimskrams" (swedish, not sure how one would translate it into a single word in english. Basically "adding extra shit that isn't really needed") templates like that did for Fantasy.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eviscerators count as power fists, according to the WDDex. So unless the BRB changes it (unlikely given when the dex was written) they'll still be power fists. Sorry.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

I'm curious about new templates but my 5th ed ones aren't even punched out yet so I'm probably good on those.

More curious if the starter has anything useful in it at this point.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Eviscerators count as power fists, according to the WDDex. So unless the BRB changes it (unlikely given when the dex was written) they'll still be power fists. Sorry.


Ah, that does suck. Well they're still useful and would deny Terminators saves (not that I WANT to fight Terminators with them, but it's not a bad place to be if I do).


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> Ah, that does suck. Well they're still useful and would deny Terminators saves (not that I WANT to fight Terminators with them, but it's not a bad place to be if I do).


To be fair, a unit with something that warrants the strength and armour busting value of a powerfist is what I want my girls to be beating on. And if both are going at I1, then no need to risk only getting 1 attack from their AoF. 

And I sure as hell don't want anything *else* in my army in CC with Terminators :wink:


----------



## boreas

Psychic Powers (English) 32 Cards, *Leaflet*

That's interesting... There was no leaflet in the WFB magic cards. Extra rules!?

Phil


----------



## Stephen_Newman

boreas said:


> Psychic Powers (English) 32 Cards, *Leaflet*
> 
> That's interesting... There was no leaflet in the WFB magic cards. Extra rules!?
> 
> Phil


Perhaps it is either:

A) A method of easily carrying a chosen lore around.

or

B) A brief summary of the rules to use psychic powers so you don't need to whip out the massive rulebook for each game.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Perhaps a box like you get with normal playing cards, the type you play poker and other games with. Pretty much always comes in a cardboard mini box. Though I dont think that's called a leaflet.

I can see a small 1-2 glossy page summary of the lores and/or rules on how you select them during deployment.

Source


redcapscorner said:


> I'm a store owner, and I just got off the phone with my GW rep. The GW sales team in the US has had a chance to look through the 6th edition books at this point, and he was able to confirm the following for me. None of this stuff is terribly specific, because he wants this Saturday's White Dwarf to have the big reveals:
> 
> 1) Wound allocation is going to be radically different, and will make the strategy of equipping differently to game the allocation system ineffective. This lines up with the distance-based allocation rumours.
> 2) Psychic powers are indeed going to work more like magic works in fantasy. Grey Knights won't be affected much because their codex was designed to slot into this new system, but older books will be affected quite a bit, and the new rules are supposed to make psychic powers more accessible for most factions.
> 3) Allies are 100% in, and not just for team games. There are definitely, without a doubt, rules that allow you to use models in your list from allied factions. Again, he wasn't specific, but he mentioned that you still needed minimum one HQ and two troops from your book, but beyond that allies are an option.
> 4) Force organization will be largely the same as it currently is. It's not switching to percentage-based or anything like that.
> 
> That's all!


----------



## Atzunew

If allies are in then I hope they include something to control the min max effect it could have. I've always liked the idea of allies since they seem like a beneifit as well as an excuse to justify getting a great looking model. 

~Atzunew


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> To be fair, a unit with something that warrants the strength and armour busting value of a powerfist is what I want my girls to be beating on. And if both are going at I1, then no need to risk only getting 1 attack from their AoF.
> 
> And I sure as hell don't want anything *else* in my army in CC with Terminators :wink:


Jacobus with some Death Cultists to try and force kill as many as possible is about the only other thing I'd throw at them (My usual load out is 7 Death Cultists, 2 Crusaders and Jacobus, this on average kills 7-8 Terminators on the charge or 3-4 Thundershield Terminators on the charge (out of 10, if the Terminators are rolling 5 deep like they usually do it'll kill the higher number more often, which is pretty darn sweet in my opinion. Shooting the heck out of things like Terminators before hand helps too). I usually save the Repentia as a meat grinder for handling non-dedicated CC units so I don't risk losing large numbers of them to the attacks (T3 really stinks when you go with or after someone else then have to roll more saves for Fearless).

Back on topic, I _MAY_ get the Collector's Edition if it's something really cool (like it comes with extra art books or something) but not if it's just the regular book plus a special binding. We'll have to wait and see on that though.

Also:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *redcapscorner*
> _I'm a store owner, and I just got off the phone with my GW rep. The GW sales team in the US has had a chance to look through the 6th edition books at this point, and he was able to confirm the following for me. None of this stuff is terribly specific, because he wants this Saturday's White Dwarf to have the big reveals:
> 
> 1) Wound allocation is going to be radically different, and will make the strategy of equipping differently to game the allocation system ineffective. This lines up with the distance-based allocation rumours. Agreed. I wouldn't really say it's "radically" different though. Instead of cherry picking there is a priority in regards to wounds caused by shooting is all. I do wonder if models on different hieights will be affected differently (closest TLOS or just anyone in the front regardless what floor they're on for example) or if it'll be from the hole in the center for templates (which would give them a boost). I'm also curious if the brief appearance of a rumor regarding differently equipped models (say ones with Special Weapons or Sergeants) taking wounds last applies, or if something will be done to mitigate their possible loss. Definitely going to have to go over this section of the book a couple times to make sure I know what I'm getting into I think.
> 2) Psychic powers are indeed going to work more like magic works in fantasy. Grey Knights won't be affected much because their codex was designed to slot into this new system, but older books will be affected quite a bit, and the new rules are supposed to make psychic powers more accessible for most factions. I'm wondering if there will be a set of powers for units who don't use psykers as a sort of general "Acts of Faith" set up, or if they'll get some kind of bonus for their lack of psychic involvement. This will be interesting to see either way.
> 3) Allies are 100% in, and not just for team games. There are definitely, without a doubt, rules that allow you to use models in your list from allied factions. Again, he wasn't specific, but he mentioned that you still needed minimum one HQ and two troops from your book, but beyond that allies are an option. While this encourages neat and fluffy armies (like mixing Chaos Marines and Daemons or Guard and Space Marines) I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a big mess as people use it as a way to abuse the system and gain bonuses the devs didn't anticipate for the sake of having a stronger army over a fluffier one.(I see Sisters with Vulkan again as a possible returning build for example). I'm definitely not pitching my hat into the ring on this one anytime soon.
> 4) Force organization will be largely the same as it currently is. It's not switching to percentage-based or anything like that. Honestly I'm not too surprised. We might see an extended Force Org for larger point games, or special scenarios that require specific Force Orgs (like Battle Missions or Planet Strike had) but I don't really see a massive shift. It honestly works pretty well as it is now and I don't see it needing too many changes if any for the standard games.
> 
> That's all!_


I added my thoughts in yellow and this to the main summary post in the first post.


----------



## mcmuffin

Allies are fucking ballsack.


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> Allies are fucking ballsack.


Is that opinion or you discounting the rumor of Allies?


----------



## fynn

you will probaly find a rule in place so that allies can not benifit from any special rules from there allies, much like the rules from the resent GW 40k tourny which allowed allies (which makes me wonder if that tourny was a final test for the allie rules useing everyday gamers, to see who tried the brakethe rules)


----------



## mcmuffin

Zion said:


> Is that opinion or you discounting the rumor of Allies?


My opinion on having allies in standard games



fynn said:


> you will probaly find a rule in place so that allies can not benifit from any special rules from there allies, much like the rules from the resent GW 40k tourny which allowed allies (which makes me wonder if that tourny was a final test for the allie rules useing everyday gamers, to see who tried the brakethe rules)


Doesnt matter, simply having an ally system in place fucks up the whole balance of the game if it is freely allowed (obviously factions will be limited) but the combinations of units could begin to get incredibly gayballs


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> My opinion on having allies in standard games


Fair enough. I just wanted to be sure.



mcmuffin said:


> Doesnt matter, simply having an ally system in place *screws* up the whole balance of the game if it is freely allowed (obviously factions will be limited) but the combinations of units could begin to get incredibly *complicated and stupid.*


Could we keep the language a little more mature and less likely to get a Mod upset at us? I've changed what I quoted above as an example. It's nothing personal, I just don't want to get a decent thread reported because of language is all.


----------



## mcmuffin

you're aware that we are allowed to swear on these forums, yes?


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> you're aware that we are allowed to swear on these forums, yes?


I am aware that swearing is, but somethings are contrary to good taste or could be considered intended to offend (namely the "gayballs" comment). 

Besides, swearing doesn't prove a point, it just makes people more likely to tune you out as some angry nerd on the internet.


----------



## mcmuffin

But i am an angry nerd.


----------



## ohiocat110

mcmuffin said:


> Allies are fucking ballsack.


Maybe, but they sell models. :biggrin:

Allies rules lowers the cost of entry for existing players to expand into other armies. To put an army on the field you need minimum 500 points and closer to 1000-1500 for typical games. That's at least a battleforce plus HQ. Allies lowers that to as little as one FOC slot, which leads to more experimentation and more purchases. 

Just better hope they did due diligence with playtesting and allies charts so no uber-combinations slipped in.


----------



## Mokuren

I'm hoping with all of my hope power that allies get back in.

It would be a great way to get around the fact that sisters have ONE troop choice, for instance. Or the fact that they basically have one model for all FoC slots.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Well if they are in as just mentioned Sisters will still only have one troop choice, they could just take a pair of troops and an HQ from an allied faction as well for more diverse capping choices.

Overall I was sort of hopeful for mix-match army allies though it does make it sort of strange for Marines, they share so many models that all you need is a codex and I can run C:SM with DW and RW bikers. Sort of kills the fun there though on the happy side this also makes cheapy HQ choices more interesting because you might not want to spend all your points on an allied HQ just to get a couple units, so I could see running 100 pt'rs or less etc to mitigate points.


----------



## mcmuffin

Mokuren said:


> I'm hoping with all of my hope power that allies get back in.
> 
> It would be a great way to get around the fact that sisters have ONE troop choice, for instance. Or the fact that they basically have one model for all FoC slots.


Problem is that aside from your one army, it will wreck the balance of the game if people just pick and choose the best units from each codex, it can't always be about what would benefit a single army like the nuns with guns, if that were thhe case then it should just be an army rule for sisters


----------



## Karyudo-DS

mcmuffin said:


> Problem is that aside from your one army, it will wreck the balance of the game if people just pick and choose the best units from each codex, it can't always be about what would benefit a single army like the nuns with guns, if that were thhe case then it should just be an army rule for sisters


Yeah, but to take Marines as an example you're almost looking at 500-600 points minimum to do that before you can even field fun units. Granted I'm sure there are some way better ways to min/max but I'd have to see if there are other downsides like in the doubles tourny at least.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If the allies rules are like in the old WH codex then I dont really see how it could unbalance the game. 1 HQ, 2 Troop, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack. No special characters and rules from other armies can't benefit your own army.

So create a 2000 point army that contains 1HQ, 2Troops and Allies 1HQ 2Troops with no Special characters that would completely crush another 2000 no allies list.

If the PDF rules released earlier are correct remember the penalties and bonuses allies provide and what races can ally with what races.

Nids allying with Nids to give 2 units the bonuses would be good but then again nids suck enough already that such a small boost would help allot.


Brothers in Arms Benefit – One non-vehicle unit per
Force can select one universal special rule from the list
below; this rule cannot be taken on a unit that already
has it and must be written on the army list for the unit
prior to the event.
• Counter-Attack
• Move Through Cover
• Night Vision / Acute Senses
• Preferred Enemy (must select a codex to be a preferred
enemy prior to the event and write it on the army list
next to the relevant unit)
• Skilled Rider
• Stealth
• Stubborn

Unholy Alliance Penalty – At the start of the first game
turn the Army with the Unholy Alliance rolls a D6 for
each of their units. On the roll of a 1, the unit is shaken
by the presence of their ‘allies’. Non-Vehicle units count
as going to ground and vehicles count as Crew Shaken.
(Note: this still applies if the vehicle could not normally
be shaken)


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290501a_40K_Doubles_Pack_June_2012.pdf


I could see allot of people taking Preferred Enemy Grey Knights , other than this Stubborn or Counter-Attack is the only thing I think people would even bother with.


----------



## boreas

Well, at the very least I'll be able to play by fluff with a Necron/Blood-Angels army. I might get a few sisters with my Grey Knights and just kill them on turn one...

On a more serious note, I've got a vindicator on sprue that I might just paint for my GKs for fun, but apart from that, I really can't see why I'd add anything...

Phil


----------



## Mokuren

mcmuffin said:


> Problem is that aside from your one army, it will wreck the balance of the game if people just pick and choose the best units from each codex, it can't always be about what would benefit a single army like the nuns with guns, if that were thhe case then it should just be an army rule for sisters


That is hard to claim when we don't know how exactly the rules are going to work. I think it would be relatively safe to assume there would be restrictions such as those of the old WH codex.

Now I'm recalling from memory, but you still need to get the compulsory 1 HQ, 2 Troops choices from your army, then you can take up to 2 Troops and 1 HQ from an allied army and then, if you take them both, you're also allowed to take up to 1 Elite and 1 Fast attack unit from your allies, but no heavy support, and it all has to stay within the ordinary FoC limitations. Plus the no special characters part and not everyone will be able to ally with everyone else, I presume.

Now, if allies stay as they were before, they're hardly going to be game-breaking, nitpicking for the best units of every codex will only be true if you just happen to have very strong troops and can ally with another army that has very strong troops or a very good HQ choice, but even then the point cost should balance itself out, also the lack of special rule synergy should be taken into account, for the armies that have them at least.

Even if they're going to change that or loosen restrictions, there's still the point cost mechanic that is supposed to balance things out, so if you get good units that happen to cover your weak spots, you're still going to pay for them and all these are points away from your own strong parts. Also I doubt you're going to be allowed to take allies from more than one other army, so the "best unit nitpick" is most likely going to be limited to... Two armies, which might not be a completely free no-holds-barred choice if the latest Doubles tournament is of any indication.

tl;dr unless they screw up massively, allies are hardly going to break anything: an OP codex is going to stay OP and diluting it with a non-OP codex is still not going to break the game harder than a pure OP codex army.


----------



## Eleven

Alliess would be dumb because it would be yet another rule that benefits the imperium massively and doesn't help Xenos at all. if this rule makes the rule book it will be a whole new generation of marine love. Could you imagine an army that uses te best units from dark Angels blood angels space marine grey knights and wolves? The opness would be out of this world.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Alliess would be dumb because it would be yet another rule that benefits the imperium massively and doesn't help Xenos at all. if this rule makes the rule book it will be a whole new generation of marine love. Could you imagine an army that uses te best units from dark Angels blood angels space marine grey knights and wolves? The opness would be out of this world.


Conjecture much? The old ally system that Grey Knights and Sisters had caused both armies (the main army and the allied in army) to share the same Force Org chart, limited you to one other army and had a cap of how many units they could take from the other book. I can't imagine that we'll see a far departure from this to be honest. Especially not to a system that turns several Marine books into essentially one super massive SPACE MARINES rulebook.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Eleven said:


> Alliess would be dumb because it would be yet another rule that benefits the imperium massively and doesn't help Xenos at all. if this rule makes the rule book it will be a whole new generation of marine love. Could you imagine an army that uses te best units from dark Angels blood angels space marine grey knights and wolves? The opness would be out of this world.


Please post an example of a really overpowered combination using the rules used in the WH codex combined with the pdf with what army can ally with whom that came out some month ago.

Make a 2000 point list that has 1HQ and 2Troops from 2 codicies that can ally.
So 2 HQ and 4 Troops, no special characters, 1 Elite and/or 1 Fast Attack from the allied Codex.

There may or may not be limitations in the BRB but until we get more info this is all we have to go by at the moment.

So create a list that is completely OP vs another non allied 2000 point list.


----------



## Eleven

What about the armies with no allies? I'm not going to bring. Blood angels along with my necrons. I don't want to bring ig with my eldar. It would be so stupid if I had to do this to be competitive. 

I'm amazed that they are considering this. I thought the move away from allies with the ordos books was a seriously good.


All I'm saying is that blindly adding in allies is a pretty big decision that could effect the game profoundly. This could likely make a big difference in the game and I just don't trust that gws tested the game properly for this kind of change.


----------



## Mokuren

Eleven said:


> All I'm saying is that blindly adding in allies is a pretty big decision that could effect the game profoundly. This could likely make a big difference in the game and I just don't trust that gws tested the game properly for this kind of change.


Last time they did it was far, far from being broken, it could _at best_ bring a non-competitive codex to interesting heights but that's it, already OP armies don't need allies, and those that aren't won't necessarily benefit from them.

And as for this only benefiting the Imperium, well, that's mostly because GW has a hard-on for pauldrons and space jocks and most of what comes out is centred around them and their mary sue captains, but if you count all Space Marines as effectively one army (even though they all have their super special awesome snowflake rules), you get... IG, Sisters and Marines as almost granted to be buddies.

Plus, unless they really go out of their way to make allies as versatile as possible, I would assume that you can take allies from _one_ other codex at a time, at _best_. Cherry-picking the best units from every codex, as someone already suggested, sounds like overreacting to me, I would consider such an event to be unlikely at best.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Eleven said:


> What about the armies with no allies? I'm not going to bring. Blood angels along with my necrons. I don't want to bring ig with my eldar. It would be so stupid if I had to do this to be competitive.


Did you even read the rumor at all? A pair of troops and HQ can be limiting, specifically for Marines that would have to as I said, invest 500-600 pts of their army before doing any of this, some far more. Putting DW with SM would require almost 600 pts from DW alone. Oh and as far as the armies with no allies...why are you even arguing that when you don't factually know it's even possible? We might be using the shown list from before so that's...nids? I'm sure you don't have to bring BA with Necrons if you don't want too. Some of us have multiple armies though though so a way to use them like that isn't to terrible an idea. That way I wouldnt have to decide on a codex. Plus that suggests that IG can have Marine support...sort of like what the fluff suggests.

Of course it could blow up the entire game. I'm not disagreeing there at all. You just seem to be going off without much info though. I mean feel free, I just think it's silly to cry about the game until we know exactly why we're crying.


----------



## Eleven

Eh, the 2 hqs and 4 troops isn't a legitimate limitation. Maybe at 1500 points its mildly limiting. At higher levels it will make no difference whatsoever. 

As for the blood angels, taking them with necrons would be so strong...bloodangela troops are pretty good especially compared to necrons. You'd take your 2 necron troops for your 2 solar pulses and then focus on blood angels. I just don't want armies like this to be the norm.

Basically, all te Xenos could effectively become bling special rules for the marines. I could be overreacting, but my gut tells me it will make the game very vanilla. 

Itd be kinda like mtg. Where you can make a cool deck sure but the lore be damned.


----------



## TechPr1est

Eleven said:


> it will make the game very vanilla. quote]
> 
> 
> omfg what does vanilla mean !!??!! and some people use 'dirty' in their army lists every one says it but i cant find out what it means
> 
> 
> for instance
> 
> somebuthole: my list is very dirty and vanilla
> vaz: how is this a dirty list
> 
> 
> omg !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:suicide:


----------



## Eleven

TechPr1est said:


> Eleven said:
> 
> 
> 
> it will make the game very vanilla. quote]
> 
> 
> omfg what does vanilla mean !!??!! and some people use 'dirty' in their army lists every one says it but i cant find out what it means
> 
> 
> for instance
> 
> somebuthole: my list is very dirty and vanilla
> vaz: how is this a dirty list
> 
> 
> omg !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:suicide:
> 
> 
> 
> The context that use are looking for I'm not sure but the context that I am using means generic.
> 
> On another note. What if you could give necrons feel no pain thru allies? Then you could have your armor save, your fnp, and your rp save.
Click to expand...


----------



## TechPr1est

vanilla marines

he had a dirty vanilla marines list


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> On another note. What if you could give necrons feel no pain thru allies? Then you could have you armor save, you fnp, and your to save.


Previously no, and I would assume it'd be like that again. No sharing special rules unless a codex specifically says you share special rules (like the Daemon's Tally of Nurgle).


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> Previously no, and I would assume it'd be like that again. No sharing special rules unless a codex specifically says you share special rules (like the Daemon's Tally of Nurgle).


So youare saying if I put for instance. A sanguinary priest with space wolf hq, you don't think it would grant him fnp?


----------



## Kelann08

Eleven said:


> So youare saying if I put for instance. A sanguinary priest with space wolf hq, you don't think it would grant him fnp?


Highly unlikely.


----------



## Kelann08

Pulled off of BOLS:



> Hullpoints: The previous rumors are true. Vehicles move to the new hullpoints system that will eventually kill them after receiving a number of critical chart rolls. Look for 3+ Hullpoints on most vehicles.
> 
> Allies are IN: As had been suspected, a new army chart will report the level of cooperation various armies can have. This will not allow cherrypicking of valuable units from another codex, but instead the ability to integrate a second FOC chart into you army from the selected ally. How deep you can develop this second tree (beyond the mandatory HQ and 2 troops) is determined by what level of cooperation the armies have on the chart.
> 
> Fortifications: The truth exceeds the mission based rumors. Look to find a new "Fortification Slot" on the FOC that all armies can access and use in standard army construction. Surprise, surprise, the common choices available happen to have existin Games Workshop kits already available.
> 
> Close Combat Weapon AP Values: This is true, and look for a full chart listing all the common CC Weapons in the game and where they land from AP1 all the way down to AP-


http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/40k-rumors-11th-hour-confirmations.html


----------



## Styro-J

I'll give Fortuned Vect and Incubi a run, though its a costly venture for sure.


----------



## fynn

As i said earlier, if the rules from that GW tourny are anything to go by, then allies can NOT benifit from special rules from the parent army, so no, sisters can NOT gain from Vulkans special rules, IG platoons/Vets can not benifit from a grand Masters special rules and a SW HQ can NOT benifit from a sanguinary pristes FnP rule.


----------



## Arcane

As *someone who actually used allies* in tournies I can honestly say it was NOT op. I ran two 20 woman blobs of SoB troops in an IG mech list, and did mediocre. If anything it actually is detrimental since you can't focus on a single army and utilize it's synergies. 

Those whining about allies, did you ever even play a game back in 4th edition with allies when they were legal? Remember how it ruined the game? No? Ok, stop whining.


----------



## maddermax

Arcane said:


> As *someone who actually used allies* in tournies I can honestly say it was NOT op. I ran two 20 woman blobs of SoB troops in an IG mech list, and did mediocre. If anything it actually is detrimental since you can't focus on a single army and utilize it's synergies.
> 
> Those whining about allies, did you ever even play a game back in 4th edition with allies when they were legal? Remember how it ruined the game? No? Ok, stop whining.


Depends on the Allies allowed though. Used to just be Sisters or some grey knights could go with imperial factions, and generally the sisters/GKs weren't particularly powerful anyway - sisters didn't get the good faith stuff going, and GKs didn't add much over what an army could normally get unless you were actually going up against daemons. However, the possibility of getting a lash prince, 2 Rune Priests or nob bikers in almost any army would be a different beast altogether (though those units I named will themselves have changed in effectiveness with the new rules, you get the idea).

That said, until we know the full details of what can/can't be done, we can't really see how they've balanced it. Most people are just guessing at this point, and until we get a better indication of what the "Allies" rules entail, we're going to get nowhere in a debate about whether they're a good thing.


----------



## Mokuren

Styro-J said:


> I'll give Fortuned Vect and Incubi a run, though its a costly venture for sure.


Assuming you still can Fortune people, remember how psykers are getting a huge revamp and only GK will be untouched by that?


----------



## Eleven

I find it hard to believe that they are going to immediately invalidate all the psychic powers in the game with the release of the new psychic system. For instance, we are looking at 35 new powers right? How many powers do we have now? Will they be able to properly represent the powers used by chaos nids orks grey knights space marines and eldar? Maybe but it seems unlikely. I'll be upset if nids are using the same powers as chaos and grey knights.

Allies made sense for the Ordos books because they were just small forces escorted by imperial forces.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Eleven said:


> Allies made sense for the Ordos books because they were just small forces escorted by imperial forces.


I've highlighted the flaw in your argument :crazy:
If we can have Blood Angels and Necrons be allies with GKs bathing in the blood of Sisters of Battle to gain immunity to chaos taint they are already immune against I'm sure allies aren't a huge stretch.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> I find it hard to believe that they are going to immediately invalidate all the psychic powers in the game with the release of the new psychic system. For instance, we are looking at 35 new powers right? How many powers do we have now? Will they be able to properly represent the powers used by chaos nids orks grey knights space marines and eldar? Maybe but it seems unlikely. I'll be upset if nids are using the same powers as chaos and grey knights.
> 
> Allies made sense for the Ordos books because they were just small forces escorted by imperial forces.


If you read the codexes you can see instances of other allies too. A few that make sense:

Dark Eldar and Tau - This is one from fluff where Dark Eldar helped save Tau from the Nids and then basically exploited the hell out of the Tau.
Marines and Eldar - Something that's happened a few times in the past. Eldar manipulate things so they don't take the majority of the losses and then help to ensure victory.
Tau and Guard - You could easily have the Guard as a couple of units of humans who have sided with the Tau for the greater good.
Chaos Marines and Daemons - Obvious Reasons
Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard - AKA Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard and/or Cultists Armies
Chaos Marines and/or Daemons and Corteaz Henchmenlist - Rogue Inquisitor and Cultist army backed by Daemons!
Black Templar and Grey Knights - Because the Black Templar book says Grey Knights are the only psykers they trust.

I'm sure some folks out there can think of other ones too, but there are PLENTY of fluffy ideas out there that can be used. To say that only one or two armies that exist that make sense to ally with anyone is pretty silly. There are plenty of great thematic builds I could see coming out of this that extend beyond just the Imperium.


----------



## SilverTabby

I would love allies to be back in. I have a very unbalanced IG force that was built as allies for my Sisters. Now I can possibly intergrate it once more. And maybe even have justification for the Valkyries / dragons I wanted to build...

Hull points, allies, better chance to kill the models you're actually shooting at... I'm liking the sound of this. Less than a week to go, and I'm starting to get eager :biggrin:


----------



## Synack

Some stuff posted from the WD on a local forum



> - Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and
> Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to
> strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles,
> making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.
> 
> - Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the
> full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors
> can fire their weapons up to 30" away), no confirmation on the 3x fire
> for Relentless at half range though.
> 
> - Assault moves are indeed 2d6", but added together. Units equipped
> with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.
> 
> - The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge
> 
> - All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24", doing
> something called a "Vector Strike", which is a certain amount of
> automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the
> creature.
> 
> - Monstrous creatures' attacks are explicitly AP 2
> 
> - Every army must select a "Warlord" or single general to lead the
> army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three
> different types of abilities, "Personal", "Inspirational" or
> "Strategic". They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability
> it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all
> friendlies within 12" his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord
> being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called
> "Immovable Object")
> 
> - Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to
> the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit
> them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is
> still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous
> creatures with the ability to Fly also get this "6-to-hit" rule.
> 
> - You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
> slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
> (which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
> few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them
> are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.
> 
> - Now we're on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren't laid
> out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as
> in WHFB. They refer to allied units as "Detachments", and there is an
> example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some
> detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the
> impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment
> from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy
> army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic
> rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.
> 
> - Here's a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the
> ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1.
> Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic
> power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire
> at their usual BS.
> 
> - Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack,
> allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It
> mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more
> easily.
> 
> - It's somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against
> vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes
> vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are "AP 1, AP
> 2, and AP 3 Damage dice", or something to that effect.
> 
> - 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in
> terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the
> back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a
> particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large
> amount of armies don't have access to any at all.


----------



## Zion

Kelann08 said:


> Pulled off of BOLS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hullpoints: The previous rumors are true. Vehicles move to the new hullpoints system that will eventually kill them after receiving a number of critical chart rolls. Look for 3+ Hullpoints on most vehicles.
> 
> Allies are IN: As had been suspected, a new army chart will report the level of cooperation various armies can have. This will not allow cherrypicking of valuable units from another codex, but instead the ability to integrate a second FOC chart into you army from the selected ally. How deep you can develop this second tree (beyond the mandatory HQ and 2 troops) is determined by what level of cooperation the armies have on the chart.
> 
> Fortifications: The truth exceeds the mission based rumors. Look to find a new "Fortification Slot" on the FOC that all armies can access and use in standard army construction. Surprise, surprise, the common choices available happen to have existin Games Workshop kits already available.
> 
> Close Combat Weapon AP Values: This is true, and look for a full chart listing all the common CC Weapons in the game and where they land from AP1 all the way down to AP-
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/40k-rumors-11th-hour-confirmations.html
Click to expand...

Added to the first post. I'm taking salt with these as they seem plausible but until we actually SEE it in the book we're still just taking someone's word that it's in the book.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I've highlighted the flaw in your argument :crazy:
> If we can have Blood Angels and Necrons be allies with GKs bathing in the blood of Sisters of Battle to gain immunity to chaos taint they are already immune against I'm sure allies aren't a huge stretch.


Reading the ally chart that I don't have in front of me I see that this is only allowed on a wednesday


----------



## TechPr1est

speaking of the allies chart...

did you know eldar and dark eldar distrust each other yet dark eldar distrust their own kind?

thats fucked


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> Reading the ally chart that I don't have in front of me I see that this is only allowed on a wednesday


----------



## d3m01iti0n

So......being a BT player......not giving a crap about psychic pokemon cards, Neophyte ablative wounds will be more or less useless (completely changing the BT dynamic, fuck you very much), and I can have Lysander hang out in my LRC Rape Train Deathstar?


----------



## Zion

Synack said:


> Some stuff posted from the WD on a local forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and
> Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to
> strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles,
> making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.
> 
> - Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the
> full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors
> can fire their weapons up to 30" away), no confirmation on the 3x fire
> for Relentless at half range though.
> 
> - Assault moves are indeed 2d6", but added together. Units equipped
> with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.
> 
> - The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge
> 
> - All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24", doing
> something called a "Vector Strike", which is a certain amount of
> automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the
> creature.
> 
> - Monstrous creatures' attacks are explicitly AP 2
> 
> - Every army must select a "Warlord" or single general to lead the
> army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three
> different types of abilities, "Personal", "Inspirational" or
> "Strategic". They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability
> it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all
> friendlies within 12" his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord
> being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called
> "Immovable Object")
> 
> - Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to
> the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit
> them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is
> still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous
> creatures with the ability to Fly also get this "6-to-hit" rule.
> 
> - You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
> slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
> (which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
> few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them
> are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.
> 
> - Now we're on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren't laid
> out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as
> in WHFB. They refer to allied units as "Detachments", and there is an
> example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some
> detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the
> impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment
> from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy
> army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic
> rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.
> 
> - Here's a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the
> ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1.
> Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic
> power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire
> at their usual BS.
> 
> - Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack,
> allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It
> mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more
> easily.
> 
> - It's somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against
> vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes
> vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are "AP 1, AP
> 2, and AP 3 Damage dice", or something to that effect.
> 
> - 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in
> terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the
> back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a
> particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large
> amount of armies don't have access to any at all.
Click to expand...

Added to the first post. So the Munitorum dice will be manditory. Are we moving from using charts and instead dice for vehicle to determine results perhaps?


----------



## Zion

TechPr1est said:


> speaking of the allies chart...
> 
> did you know eldar and dark eldar distrust each other yet dark eldar distrust their own kind?
> 
> thats fucked


Don't the Dark Eldar basically distrust everyone?


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Hmm not the least bit surprised that buyable fortifications would be from existed kita out there. The bastions barely have anything beyond suggestive rules as is so them having options to buy them make sense.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Zion said:


> Don't the Dark Eldar basically distrust everyone?


everyone except their mums and harlequins


----------



## maddermax

Bindi Baji said:


> everyone except their mums and harlequins


And they're not really sure about their mums either.



Zion said:


> Added to the first post. So the Munitorum dice will be manditory. Are we moving from using charts and instead dice for vehicle to determine results perhaps?


It doesn't mean they're mandatory, and even if they don't include easy to use tables in the book, transferring any 6 sided dice to a normal roll is extraordinarily easy. Just like you could use the old rapid fire dice, or use a d3 with a 6 being a jam.


----------



## SilverTabby

Oh, I hope the flying monstrous creature rules are right. I like my Harpies already, having a 24" move and being harder to hit will make them full of awesomesauce. I just wish they were 1-3 like Valkyries...


----------



## mcmuffin

Ooh, the monstrous creature rules would be nice, i would be able to bring Daniel the Daemon Prince out of retirement.


----------



## Cappizzano

I see both good, and bad in the rumors. That bad thing is that at the moment they are just that...... Rumors. GW has refused to comment on anything until 6th edition is released so I guess we just have to wait and see.

On another note I saw someone in the forum mention something about a digital copy of the rulebook, but that is news to me. Anyone else heard anything on this?


----------



## Zion

Cappizzano said:


> I see both good, and bad in the rumors. That bad thing is that at the moment they are just that...... Rumors. GW has refused to comment on anything until 6th edition is released so I guess we just have to wait and see.
> 
> On another note I saw someone in the forum mention something about a digital copy of the rulebook, but that is news to me. Anyone else heard anything on this?


September release with the starter set is what the current rumors are saying.


----------



## boreas

While I'll have to wait and see what the exact rules for allies are, I'm pretty hyped about the rest... 

-Hull points might prevent those frustrating rolls when glance twice and penetrate one, but roll "Shaken-stunned-stunned". I can see GK dread become even more common, though...

-Assault 2d6 makes for longer charges on average. Wonder what happens in case of failed charge? Also, will there be a mechanism to prevent first-turn assault?

-Buying terrain is cool... We already have a lot of GW (and non-GW) terrain. We already play on pretty "full" terrain (usually CoD style), so sometimes crowding another building in might prove difficult.

-Overwatch at BS1 is meh... I can't it that making any real difference for most armies. Even 10 GK would shoot 20 times, hit 3 times, wound 1-2 times!? Buying a clairvoyance power (and making the roll) just for Overwatch's sake probably won't happen for me...

Still, all in all, exciting new toys to play with!

Phil


----------



## CattleBruiser

does the overwatch favour armies that have a quantity over quality approach to their shooting already *cough* orks *cough*.

And allies sound great! my Tau will finally be able to bring in some decent anti-meq.


----------



## Zion

CattleBruiser said:


> does the overwatch favour armies that have a quantity over quality approach to their shooting already *cough* orks *cough*.
> 
> And allies sound great! my Tau will finally be able to bring in some decent anti-meq.


Lurking Gaunts too!

EDIT: More from Faeit212


> via Birdy /Darnok
> changes reported as per new WD:
> *The leaked photo of the cover is correct, that is the new cover of the normal hardback rulebook. The collectors edition looks *******' sweet though, with amazing artwork and brass doodads, etc etc. The skull measuring tape is pretty cool too, and the munitorum dice come in a lasgun charge pack case, and are also pretty nicely designed. The special edition templates follow the Fantasy example of being somewhat visually-related to the game, except instead of faux-gold framing, they're faux-steel framed, with coruscating arcs of blue psychic fire spoking out from the middle of each (or the narrow end of the flame template)*
> - Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles, making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.
> - Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors can fire their weapons up to 30" away), no confirmation on the 3x fire for Relentless at half range though.
> - *Assault moves are indeed 2d6", but added together. Units equipped with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.*
> - *The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge*
> - All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24", doing something called a "Vector Strike", which is a certain amount of automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the creature.
> - Monstrous creatures' attacks are explicitly AP 2
> - Every army must select a "Warlord" or single general to lead the army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three different types of abilities, "Personal", "Inspirational" or "Strategic". They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all friendlies within 12" his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called "Immovable Object")
> - Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous creatures with the ability to Fly also get this "6-to-hit" rule.
> - You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun (which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.
> - Now we're on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren't laid out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as in WHFB. They refer to allied units as "Detachments", and there is an example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.
> - Here's a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1. Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire at their usual BS.
> - Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack, allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more easily.
> - It's somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are "AP 1, AP 2, and AP 3 Damage dice", or something to that effect.
> - 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large amount of armies don't have access to any at all.
> *- Land Speeders have the special rule "Jink", which gives them a 5+ save all the time, this changes to 4+ if they go flat out. (I'm reasonably sure all fast skimmers get this, I'm not sure whether it's a USR or just a quality Fast Skimmers get)*
> *-Also,models are taken from the front when they're shot. Or, to put it another way, when a unit gets shot at, models from the part of the unit closest to the firer are removed first.*


Some reposts, but some new stuff.

EDIT EDIT: I bolded the stuff that hasn't been seen yet.


----------



## Archon Dan

Zion said:


> Doesn't everyone basically distrust the Dark Eldar?


Fixed that for you. Maybe their detachments would be more like slave soldiors, forced to advance and fight. But as far as the fluff goes, I could see Wyches prodding a Tyranid beast toward the enemy or Haemonculi uses chemicals to do the same. Both ideas are stuff I've considered for Apocolypse games. The really nice thing about the allies is that somebody can buy a new army they want one kit at a time and still use the figures before building that army to a playable size. It will make GW lots of money too, especially all those Codex: SM players wanting a Blood Angel detachment with a Stormraven.




> - 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in
> terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the
> back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a
> particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large
> amount of armies don't have access to any at all.


This suggests to me that many existing codicis will still be allowed to pick psychic powers the old way; at least until they get a new codex that follows the new system. If they are making psychic powers like fantasy magic though, they need to seriously increase the effect the powers have. My big concern here is that we will loose army specific powers, though. They can't put Blood Lance or Jaws of the Worldwolf in a general category that multiple armies could access.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Archon Dan said:


> The really nice thing about the allies is that somebody can buy a new army they want one kit at a time and still use the figures before building that army to a playable size. It will make GW lots of money too, especially all those Codex: SM players wanting a Blood Angel detachment with a Stormraven.


Thats one reason I like alliee, being able to build an army slowly but use it all the time would be great. Though obviously some combos just don't make sense. When you look at Marines though I'm not as happy. It means I could play my DW and RW as they are and play the rest as C:SM instead, sort of loses their identity but I suppose with new codex's there should be less reason to do that...or moan about being left in the dust.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> So the Munitorum dice will be manditory


No, I dont think so because in the current dice box you get different dice for pen and glancing, both of which can be rolled on a D6 regardless.


----------



## boreas

> -Also,models are taken from the front when they're shot. Or, to put it another way, when a unit gets shot at, models from the part of the unit closest to the firer are removed first.


This I can see causing as much problems as the current TLOS system. Opponents kight try all sorts of shenanigans, like placing their units in a perfect square, or I don't know what ("those" players get very creative...).

Phil


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> No, I dont think so because in the current dice box you get different dice for pen and glancing, both of which can be rolled on a D6 regardless.


I was thinking along the lines if they're like the hit/scatter dice actually (and GW gets rid of the current pen tables), then again they could be modifier dice for rolls for the AP3/2/1 weapons. 

But that's just conjecture.



boreas said:


> This I can see causing as much problems as the current TLOS system. Opponents kight try all sorts of shenanigans, like placing their units in a perfect square, or I don't know what ("those" players get very creative...).
> 
> Phil


Dodecahedrons. Space Marine Pyramids. Hypercubes.


----------



## Arcane

The dice just speed things up. For example, ap1 you get +1 so that damage dice has two "6s" results and no "1s". You could still use a d6 instead and consult the chart.


----------



## SilverTabby

Hmmmm. If armies have access to lores, I do hope there's a nid lore, or they just leave theirs alone until the 'dex gets redone. Though the 2nd Ed nid spells were cool, part of the 'nid beasties design is a specific ability. Maybe some will get abilities and psychics on top, like Dominion as a rule, and x powers on top. Would make Tervigons more than just walking wombs.

Rage gives +2 attacks? Time to finish converting those Repentia: 4 attacks on the charge? :biggrin:


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> Rage gives +2 attacks? Time to finish converting those Repentia: 4 attacks on the charge? :biggrin:


Death company are starting to look very good too. Maybe i can ally meph and some death co with my space wolves :drinks:


----------



## MrPete

If Rage is now just +2 attacks and no longer the "go for the closest guys" it used to be, Astorath and a Death Company army will be a pretty fearsome setup.

I like the rumours about flying monstrous creatures, would be nice to have a flyrant lopping off a few heads as he flies around, in Starship Trooper - esque fashion.


----------



## mcmuffin

MrPete said:


> If Rage is now just +2 attacks and no longer the "go for the closest guys" it used to be, Astorath and a Death Company army will be a pretty fearsome setup.
> 
> I like the rumours about flying monstrous creatures, would be nice to have a flyrant lopping off a few heads as he flies around, in Starship Trooper - esque fashion.


I reckon the +2 attacks will also have a "must charge if possible" set up, but hopefully they lose the whole "oh look, the mail man! woof woof chase him" thing


----------



## Karyudo-DS

mcmuffin said:


> I reckon the +2 attacks will also have a "must charge if possible" set up, but hopefully they lose the whole "oh look, the mail man! woof woof chase him" thing


I'm going to get that mailman. Just you watch.


----------



## Zion

Karyudo-DS said:


> I'm going to get that mailman. Just you watch.


The mailman or his empty truck?


----------



## Sethis

*Profanity warning. Click spoiler tags if over 18 only.*



> - You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
> slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
> (which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
> few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them
> are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.





Fuck you, you stupid fucking retarded shit eating cunts. AAAAARRRRSSSE. You mother fucking dick sucking ass licking cow molesters. You retarded diseased gangrenous paedophilic camel fudge packers. You grandad shagging sons of one legged AIDs ridden whores with meth problems.



I cannot BELIEVE that they can be this idiotic. Kiss goodbye to balanced games. They obviously didn't learn a single lesson from the goddamned folding fortress insanity.

RRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!


----------



## Starship Trooper

MrPete said:


> I like the rumours about flying monstrous creatures, would be nice to have a flyrant lopping off a few heads as he flies around, in Starship Trooper - esque fashion.


Yeah baby!!!


----------



## Zion

Sethis said:


> *Profanity warning. Click spoiler tags if over 18 only.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you, you stupid fucking retarded shit eating cunts. AAAAARRRRSSSE. You mother fucking dick sucking ass licking cow molesters. You retarded diseased gangrenous paedophilic camel fudge packers. You grandad shagging sons of one legged AIDs ridden whores with meth problems.
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot BELIEVE that they can be this idiotic. Kiss goodbye to balanced games. They obviously didn't learn a single lesson from the goddamned folding fortress insanity.
> 
> RRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!


You do know that in 40K, unlike Fantasy you CAN break buildings? Bastions are AV14 (I think)and can be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed and wrecked or exploded.


----------



## Synack

mcmuffin said:


> I reckon the +2 attacks will also have a "must charge if possible" set up, but hopefully they lose the whole "oh look, the mail man! woof woof chase him" thing


How about Horms out of synapse range, with adrenal and toxin, 4 attacks on the charge with rerolls of 1s and re-roll to wounds vs MEQ.

Just sick


----------



## Sethis

Zion said:


> You do know that in 40K, unlike Fantasy you CAN break buildings? Bastions are AV14 (I think)and can be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed and wrecked or exploded.


Alright, I'll explain the reason for the rage.

1. Terrain setup is supposed to be neutral. You enforce this neutrality by having both players agree on a balanced setup, and dicing off to choose table sides. This way no-one has an advantage, or if they do, it is very small.

2. Now imagine Player A has spent XXpts on a Bastion. Player B has not. We all know how important cover is in 40k, and you can easily fit 3-4 vehicles behind a bastion, to say nothing of the infantry inside it (on an objective, perhaps?).

3. Player A now has 3 concealed vehicles, and player B has 4 vehicles with no cover. Who will win the shooting war? Hint: It is not player B.

Also:

Different types of cover benefit different types of army more than others. A fast, mobile army has little to no need for cover, while a gunline army loves it. Likewise different armies have greater/lesser ability to assault into cover, destroy buildings, drive over it with tanks etc. As it stands in 5th, you can use good tactics to mitigate this - for example I can see that my enemy has 1 forest and a hill in their deployment zone, so I can see what is in his army and work out where he is likely to place units. I can then place my own units accordingly. I can also move during the game to avoid/mitigate cover. If, however, my opponent can simply plonk an AV14 bunker wherever he likes, then suddenly there is no weakness in the deployment zone to exploit. There are no weak sides.

Also:

How the fuck are you supposed to effectively regulate and govern all the terrain that people are capable of making at home and bringing to a tournament/game? Unless you restrict it to GW-only models (fuck you too GW, thanks) then there is no way short of being totally anally pedantic about it that you can cover every possibility. E.g. "Wall, 50pts: A Wall may be no longer than 6", no taller than 1.5", no wider than 1", may not be placed within 2" of another terrain feature..." and so on. That's the most basic terrain piece imaginable. Now try to construct a similar set of rules for a homemade ruin, bunker, bastion, landing pad, et al.

Also:

The tactical possibilities of freely placing terrain - e.g. if there are two buildings with an 8" gap between them, you can drop a 6" building right there and completely block off about ~20" of the table. That sounds like fun when I'm playing green tide. Not.

And I'm not even covering all the problems.


----------



## mcmuffin

Sethis said:


> Alright, I'll explain the reason for the rage.
> 
> 1. Terrain setup is supposed to be neutral. You enforce this neutrality by having both players agree on a balanced setup, and dicing off to choose table sides. This way no-one has an advantage, or if they do, it is very small.
> 
> 2. Now imagine Player A has spent XXpts on a Bastion. Player B has not. We all know how important cover is in 40k, and you can easily fit 3-4 vehicles behind a bastion, to say nothing of the infantry inside it (on an objective, perhaps?).
> 
> 3. Player A now has 3 concealed vehicles, and player B has 4 vehicles with no cover. Who will win the shooting war? Hint: It is not player B.
> 
> Also:
> 
> Different types of cover benefit different types of army more than others. A fast, mobile army has little to no need for cover, while a gunline army loves it. Likewise different armies have greater/lesser ability to assault into cover, destroy buildings, drive over it with tanks etc. As it stands in 5th, you can use good tactics to mitigate this - for example I can see that my enemy has 1 forest and a hill in their deployment zone, so I can see what is in his army and work out where he is likely to place units. I can then place my own units accordingly. I can also move during the game to avoid/mitigate cover. If, however, my opponent can simply plonk an AV14 bunker wherever he likes, then suddenly there is no weakness in the deployment zone to exploit. There are no weak sides.
> 
> Also:
> 
> How the fuck are you supposed to effectively regulate and govern all the terrain that people are capable of making at home and bringing to a tournament/game? Unless you restrict it to GW-only models (fuck you too GW, thanks) then there is no way short of being totally anally pedantic about it that you can cover every possibility. E.g. "Wall, 50pts: A Wall may be no longer than 6", no taller than 1.5", no wider than 1", may not be placed within 2" of another terrain feature..." and so on. That's the most basic terrain piece imaginable. Now try to construct a similar set of rules for a homemade ruin, bunker, bastion, landing pad, et al.
> 
> Also:
> 
> The tactical possibilities of freely placing terrain - e.g. if there are two buildings with an 8" gap between them, you can drop a 6" building right there and completely block off about ~20" of the table. That sounds like fun when I'm playing green tide. Not.


Tournaments will disallow this anyway, or at least If i am TO-ing any tournies i won't allow if. of course we'll need to wait and see. one aegis defence line with a nice little turret wouldnt be too bad, but yes, bastions and shite should not be allowed. We all remember the absolute clusterfuckfest that is planetstrike, yes? Where the defender always wins


----------



## SilverTabby

Also, being able to buy certain buildings may well lend a little *more* balance to the game. For those armies that have little firepower and are suddenly faced with swarms of new fliers they can't touch? Hello tyranid infested bastion with goopguns designed to splat them out the sky...

Just saying, it's entirely possible that *gasp* they *thought* about this? You buy these rumoured buildings, you're sacrifing a slot and points to do so. It's highly likely you can only place them in your own deployment zone, and before setup but after picking sides. 

Besides, as has been said before, getting *that* het up before the rules are out isn't good for your blood pressure :wink:


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> Just saying, it's entirely possible that *gasp* they *thought* about this? You buy these rumoured buildings, you're sacrifing a slot and points to do so...


Considering the fact that they clearly don't think about what certain combinations of things can do (Grey knights with stacking psy powers and all of the silly grenades going at once being a prime example) it isnt as if they have set a precedent for good balanced rules coughplanetstrikecough


----------



## Sethis

SilverTabby said:


> Also, being able to buy certain buildings may well lend a little *more* balance to the game. For those armies that have little firepower and are suddenly faced with swarms of new fliers they can't touch? Hello tyranid infested bastion with goopguns designed to splat them out the sky...
> 
> Just saying, it's entirely possible that *gasp* they *thought* about this? You buy these rumoured buildings, you're sacrifing a slot and points to do so...


Sorry, I don't see "Hey, we invented completely broken unit type X and added it to the game. Now you need to buy product Y to deal with it, or lose all the time" as balance. I call it fucking stupid and not even slightly aimed towards fair games.

And you're not sacrificing slots according to the rumour - they have their own FOC section. You are just spending points, which harks right back to the "different armies value different terrain differently" at which point you have to ask how they can put a fair points price on it? Never mind that certain types of terrain completely fuck certain armies (i.e. how would you like it if I covered half the table with difficult terrain that granted no cover save when you were playing a horde army?). I'd happily spend a lot of points to kill 1/6th of a Jumper army every single turn, with no wound allocation possible. Do you see what I mean?


----------



## seermaster

2/6 if u take a world scape ctan shiver shiver


----------



## yanlou

About the ally rule; 
Maybe one of the reasons Daemons got there own codex was to do with 6th, making daemons more effective when used with Chaos Space Marines as allies, perhaps the devs had this edition in mind all those years ago, along enough stuff to make a seperate army, obviously this is just conjecture on my part.

As to the Terrain rumour, if its true, different types of terrain might be restricted and limited in number depending on the army in question, like Necrons buying bastions, i reckon the terrain will be more along the lines of race type terrain.


----------



## Sethis

yanlou said:


> As to the Terrain rumour, if its true, different types of terrain might be restricted and limited in number depending on the army in question, like Necrons buying bastions, i reckon the terrain will be more along the lines of race type terrain.


Given that every single terrain kit available is Imperial, how would that work?


----------



## mcmuffin

yanlou said:


> About the ally rule;
> Maybe one of the reasons Daemons got there own codex was to do with 6th, making daemons more effective when used with Chaos Space Marines as allies, obviously this is just conjecture on my part.


Eh, daemons was written at the end of 4th ed for 5th ed rules. GW don't have 2 editions worth of foresight


----------



## boreas

Sethis said:


> Given that every single terrain kit available is Imperial, how would that work?


Well, duh, you just play imperial armies!? :laugh:

I agree with Silvertabby, we should wait and see. A 400pts bastion would not be broken. But I do agree that, along with allies, there is a lot of fuckup potential here (that will fortunately be house-ruled with my gaming group!).

Phil


----------



## yanlou

Sethis said:


> Given that every single terrain kit available is Imperial, how would that work?


It would work as it be and excuse for GW to make alien terrain and profit from it.



mcmuffin said:


> Eh, daemons was written at the end of 4th ed for 5th ed rules. GW don't have 2 editions worth of foresight


We dont know how they think all the time do we, in fact they could easily have ideas floating around for later editions, one of those ideas could have easily been Daemons after all it is GW doing the rules. So dismissing it on the bases of not having "foresight" for 2 editions later is rubbish, Its GW game after all which your seeming to forget, 
Theyve probably had ideas for new rules for years, but havent been able to implement them for one reason or the other.

At the end of the day, yes its probably as farfetched as Lux's ramblings but all im saying it could be a possible reason among the many they had.


----------



## Mokuren

Sethis said:


> Sorry, I don't see "Hey, we invented completely broken unit type X and added it to the game. Now you need to buy product Y to deal with it, or lose all the time" as balance. I call it fucking stupid and not even slightly aimed towards fair games.


This is what worries me the most on regards of flyers needing 6s to hit always all the time rumour, it means they will be absolutely invincible to everything short of pure, unadulterated blind luck _or_ being Space Marine and having all the super special awesome snowflake mary sue rules that let you win all the time.

As it stands now, if I play sisters and face blood ravens with _one_ stormraven I have pretty much automatically lost, assuming the flyers thing is true. I know it's silly to expect balanced rules out of this game or, god forbid, Space Marines not getting the bestestest toys ever and before everyone else, but the idea of being forced to buy flyer models and only play armies that have them or lose all the time is pretty irritating.

As for the rest, there is nothing else particularly rage-inducing, I for one find the idea of buying buildings as a welcome addition (unless they royally screw it up), we will actually see some more fortifications and hopefully with clearer and better defined rules and give players a better way to control the battlefield. If we pair this with random battlefield effects it should end up being pretty exciting.

I'm quite baffled at the idea of removing casualties closest to the firer first, it's like a perfect recipe for mid-battle arguments and extremely unclear situations and borderline cases. That and the game will end up with extremely weird formations. Also, suddenly all special heroes will become instant cowards and stay in the farthest place they can find, though I admit this is a relatively minor gripe... The worst part is really just about the amount of arguments and judgement calls necessary to make this rule work, I frankly don't think it's worth the trouble.


----------



## March of Time

Mokuren said:


> I'm quite baffled at the idea of removing casualties closest to the firer first, it's like a perfect recipe for mid-battle arguments and extremely unclear situations and borderline cases. That and the game will end up with extremely weird formations. Also, suddenly all special heroes will become instant cowards and stay in the farthest place they can find, though I admit this is a relatively minor gripe... The worst part is really just about the amount of arguments and judgement calls necessary to make this rule work, I frankly don't think it's worth the trouble.


From now on all my Space Marine Sergeants will be leading there squads from the back,Like Skaven :shok:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> Given that every single terrain kit available is Imperial, how would that work?


Glue some orky bits to the side and its ork now. All you need. Keeping in mind we have no idea the stats, pts , and/slots for these so I'm confused why anyone is freaking out. You might only get to place one or maybe two. I would like to know more about them because just placing them tells me nothing about balance. 

Either way this is better than planet strikes "place as much as you want" mantra. Hopefully anyway unless they have no point values again.


----------



## Sethis

Karyudo-DS said:


> Glue some orky bits to the side and its ork now. All you need. Keeping in mind we have no idea the stats, pts , and/slots for these so I'm confused why anyone is freaking out. You might only get to place one or maybe two. I would like to know more about them because just placing them tells me nothing about balance.
> 
> Either way this is better than planet strikes "place as much as you want" mantra. Hopefully anyway unless they have no point values again.


And Eldar/Dark Eldar/Nids/Tau/Necrons/Daemons can just go spit, right?

And unless each piece of terrain costs a zillion points then there is a perfect reason to freak out. You cannot assign a fair points value in the BRB to terrain. Terrain already causes the most arguments in the game. I already struggle to beat Grey Knights without them being able to place their own scenery at will (3+ cover save all game, every game much?).

I'm just hoping that all of this crap comes under "Appendix A: Optional for-fun rules" but knowing GW that's something of a pipe dream...


----------



## Bindi Baji

yanlou said:


> We dont know how they think all the time do we, in fact they could easily have ideas floating around for later editions, one of those ideas could have easily been Daemons after all it is GW doing the rules. So dismissing it on the bases of not having "foresight" for 2 editions later is rubbish


 :shok:

while it's obvious that GW do actually look to the future towards the end of an edition the idea that they change things in anticipation of two whole editions time is a load of old tottenham


----------



## mcmuffin

Bindi Baji said:


> :shok:
> 
> while it's obvious that GW do actually look to the future towards the end of an edition the idea that they change things in anticipation of two whole editions time is a load of old tottenham


Thank you.


----------



## yanlou

Do you have 100% concrete proof they dont, NO, so dont claim you know, till you do have your proof thats your opinion and i have mine.

Im not saying im right at all, but im also saying your not right either.


----------



## TheReverend

All I know is that I'm looking forward to bringing back Leman Russ battle tanks to my Space Wolves army... oh, and that Shadowstorm I painted up... 

Rev


----------



## khrone forever

deathwing with IG YAY


----------



## ohiocat110

Sethis said:


> Sorry, I don't see "Hey, we invented completely broken unit type X and added it to the game. Now you need to buy product Y to deal with it, or lose all the time" as balance. I call it fucking stupid and not even slightly aimed towards fair games.


You must not play any Collectible Card Games...

But don't be surprised. Every new version of a codex makes some old unit type bad (Lictors) and introduces a new good unit type that you have to go buy. If GW is producing a bunch of new Flyer models, you can be sure the rules will make them worth taking.


----------



## Kelann08

I know you're frustrated by this (rumored) change so let me offer some rules options that popped into my head. I'm basing these off of existing rules. One big help to all this - don't think of this building or terrain as building or terrain but rather as a unit. It gets deployed, it has deployment rules just like another unit. It can also have some special deployment rules because it is neither a unit nor terrain.



Sethis said:


> 1. Terrain setup is supposed to be neutral. You enforce this neutrality by having both players agree on a balanced setup, and dicing off to choose table sides. This way no-one has an advantage, or if they do, it is very small.


I imagine it gets deployed just like anything else on the table. I also imagine there will be restrictions as to where its placed (i.e. no closer than 3" to another piece of terrain, etc). A bastion is an immobile land raider (AV 14) with one specialized gun. Pros: it provides cover for a unit and blocks LOS for others; its got a specialized weapon, likely for shooting someone out of the sky. Cons: its hella expensive; its immobile and therefore hit automatically in melee; it only has one gun designed for a specific task making it likely weaker if it can't perform that task (i.e. you don't have fliers).



Sethis said:


> 2. Now imagine Player A has spent XXpts on a Bastion. Player B has not. We all know how important cover is in 40k, and you can easily fit 3-4 vehicles behind a bastion, to say nothing of the infantry inside it (on an objective, perhaps?).


Rules state only one unit can occupy a building. 30 boyz, 15 warriors, 10 space marines, you get the idea. Yes, you can use it to block LOS for some of your vehicles however the footprint is limited. You can easily set up to find LOS to something I would think. I'll explain more on my thoughts about fortification footprint below.



Sethis said:


> Different types of cover benefit different types of army more than others. A fast, mobile army has little to no need for cover, while a gunline army loves it. Likewise different armies have greater/lesser ability to assault into cover, destroy buildings, drive over it with tanks etc. As it stands in 5th, you can use good tactics to mitigate this - for example I can see that my enemy has 1 forest and a hill in their deployment zone, so I can see what is in his army and work out where he is likely to place units. I can then place my own units accordingly. I can also move during the game to avoid/mitigate cover. If, however, my opponent can simply plonk an AV14 bunker wherever he likes, then suddenly there is no weakness in the deployment zone to exploit. There are no weak sides.


I don't mean to state the obvious here, but different armies have always had greater/lesser abilities to do X, Y or Z. This just adds a new wrinkle to that. Now you need to potentially plan around your opponent bringing a fortification as well. Its more strategy. Keep in mind, they can price these things very highly without much issue. A bastion could very well cost 400 points. That's a LARGE chunk of any size army. That's 400 points they haven't spent on troops to hold objectives or killy units to hit back. That's 400 more points a Blood Angels army can spend on winged death. A lascannon or two can easily take down a bastion before its ever an issue. Imagine a Laspred recouping 150% of its points when it takes one out not to mention potentially exploding and killing the units inside. I chill at the prospect of a bastion exploding for 6", killing guys inside and glancing on the predators I hid behind it and immobilizing/destroying a weapon. Now that's a chain reaction you can be proud of.



Sethis said:


> How the fuck are you supposed to effectively regulate and govern all the terrain that people are capable of making at home and bringing to a tournament/game? Unless you restrict it to GW-only models (fuck you too GW, thanks) then there is no way short of being totally anally pedantic about it that you can cover every possibility. E.g. "Wall, 50pts: A Wall may be no longer than 6", no taller than 1.5", no wider than 1", may not be placed within 2" of another terrain feature..." and so on. That's the most basic terrain piece imaginable. Now try to construct a similar set of rules for a homemade ruin, bunker, bastion, landing pad, et al.


GW is known for the occasionally unwieldy rule. My thought is some kind of "square footage" rule in which whatever you bring must be of a certain size or less - say 6" square is the limit. I don't know what the bastion footprint is off the top of my head but I'd say 3" by 3" is likely generous. Extend this to other types of terrain. Aegis defense wall? Can be 6" by 1". There's a potential for restrictions here. Its not guaranteed to be a free for all.



Sethis said:


> The tactical possibilities of freely placing terrain - e.g. if there are two buildings with an 8" gap between them, you can drop a 6" building right there and completely block off about ~20" of the table. That sounds like fun when I'm playing green tide. Not.


Again, there is a standard for rules that can prevent things like this happening. "You cannot deploy your fortification within 6" of a table edge or 3" of another piece of terrain." I know this may not make you feel better and its ENTIRELY conjecture but at the very least, its conjecture based on known rules therefore its not a huge leap to imagine something similar. I hope it helped.


----------



## HOBO

khrone forever said:


> deathwing with IG YAY


Dude, I play with that combo already....in Apocalypse:biggrin: - :victory:


----------



## khrone forever

HOBO said:


> Dude, I play with that combo already....in Apocalypse:biggrin: - :victory:


So do i, but now i can have my deathwing with a CCS with 2 vets and 9 LRBT, for funns


----------



## HOBO

khrone forever said:


> So do i, but now i can have my deathwing with a CCS with 2 vets and 9 LRBT, for funns


Cool:grin: not that I'm getting into any conversation about Rumours, which is an utter waste of time in my book....Ooohh segway,...I'll wait for the rulebook before commenting further.


----------



## khrone forever

fair enough, nothing is certain. but it would be fun with 2+ deathwing squads and 9 LRBT's


----------



## TechPr1est

3 days remaining...


----------



## SilverTabby

Sethis said:


> Sorry, I don't see "Hey, we invented completely broken unit type X and added it to the game. Now you need to buy product Y to deal with it, or lose all the time" as balance. I call it fucking stupid and not even slightly aimed towards fair games.
> 
> And you're not sacrificing slots according to the rumour - they have their own FOC section. You are just spending points, which harks right back to the "different armies value different terrain differently" at which point you have to ask how they can put a fair points price on it? Never mind that certain types of terrain completely fuck certain armies (i.e. how would you like it if I covered half the table with difficult terrain that granted no cover save when you were playing a horde army?). I'd happily spend a lot of points to kill 1/6th of a Jumper army every single turn, with no wound allocation possible. Do you see what I mean?


I can see your point, but I am also fairly confident that if you buy terrain with your points, you're likely to have to deploy it in very certain ways. Most likely, in your own deployment zone or very close to it. And if you spend all your points on restrictive terrain designed to f**k your opponent, you aren't spending it on your actual army. Which screws yourself over more. 

For example: 
Bob: Yay, I've got minefields and tangled jungles all over the middle of the table! Eat that, Nid player!
Jeff: That's nice. I've got 6 scoring units and 5 other units that will take all the objectives. You've got your commander and 2 troops...



yanlou said:


> Do you have 100% concrete proof they dont, NO, so dont claim you know, till you do have your proof thats your opinion and i have mine.
> 
> Im not saying im right at all, but im also saying your not right either.


As someone who was working in the Studio throughout the writing and designing of both the Daemon Codex and 5th Ed, I can quite happily tell you it wasn't written with 6th in mind. Sorry.


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> As someone who was working in the Studio throughout the writing and designing of both the Daemon Codex and 5th Ed, I can quite happily tell you it wasn't written with 6th in mind. Sorry.


Thank you too.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> And Eldar/Dark Eldar/Nids/Tau/Necrons/Daemons can just go spit, right?
> 
> And unless each piece of terrain costs a zillion points then there is a perfect reason to freak out. You cannot assign a fair points value in the BRB to terrain. Terrain already causes the most arguments in the game. I already struggle to beat Grey Knights without them being able to place their own scenery at will (3+ cover save all game, every game much?).
> 
> I'm just hoping that all of this crap comes under "Appendix A: Optional for-fun rules" but knowing GW that's something of a pipe dream...


In the from future there is only war. It stands to reason that capturing anyone's fortifications and using them happens very often.

But your saying no one else can use it and that they're very cheap? Where did you get this information and how many pts are they? Because if you can't answer that then you have no argument when you're inventing plausibly bad situations with no info which may have nothing to do with the product and does nothing but piss us off. Which isn't to say you're entirely wrong but unless your sources gave you all the information I'm not even sure what your point is.

Oh and yes you can assign points to terrain, its very easy. You simply setup a few dimensional and statistical guidelines. Say a bastion is X pts per level up or any building within X square inches with C number levels and X weapons and AV X. Then you let people generate terrain using that formula. Really isn't hard,some games let you design entire units etc. Yes you could argue over terrain but that's where you have to agree with your opponent beforehand anyway.


----------



## clever handle

ohiocat110 said:


> You must not play any Collectible Card Games...
> 
> But don't be surprised. Every new version of a codex makes some old unit type bad (Lictors) and introduces a new good unit type that you have to go buy. If GW is producing a bunch of new Flyer models, you can be sure the rules will make them worth taking.


you'd think that but then they remade possessed /argument.


----------



## clever handle

double post FTW!

my only issue with "purchasing terrain" is that - at least in fantasy when you bring along your folding fortress, its just that: a magical folding fortress a wizard pulls out of his robes & goes "zim zala-bim!" and poof! fortress. In 40K is your air support droping a bastion ahead of your dudes only to pick it up 30 minutes later after the fighting has moved on?

So many of the rumours are contradictory, or just plain stupid. Take all with a good dose of salt & wait until the weekend. Most of the silly stuff we're hearing about, if incldued at all, is probably from the last 200 pages of the book where they try to get you into the hobby aspect & thinking living campaigns, etc.


----------



## Obinhi

I've tried to say out of the wild mass guessing until D day, but in friendly games I cant say I would mind buying buildings. I have a peice of packing foam and some shit I built with cardboard and sticks to act as fortress. I threw some HBs and Autocannons on for fun, but If I can pay points and use them, I'm down with that. I cant see this being a game breaker in tourny play, as it would have to act like an immobile tank...Kind of like bastions do now.


----------



## scscofield

If they do not give preexisting units the ability to counter flyers then the terrain is just a bullshit move. If dev squads and whatnot can shoot flyers without insane rolls then the terrain is no big deal.


----------



## Eleven

Balance aside, does no one else think its stupid that an imperial army and an ork army might have preemptively built a giant tower on the battle field before it started only 50 meters apart? Think about that. Gretchen and humans waving to each other every morning with their hard hats donned building giant towers.

That's my beef with it. This is 40k not team fortress 2.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

clever handle said:


> In 40K is your air support droping a bastion ahead of your dudes only to pick it up 30 minutes later after the fighting has moved on?


Actually I think that's what the planet strike book basically says. Of course it's a way so that you can fight over an asset of some kind rather than just two armies slugging it out in the middle of nowhere which is why I think ANYONE can use an Imperial Bastion. Even the freaking nids! Because I'm sure they would kill the defenders, turn it into a spawning ground and biomorph with the weapons to use them. There is nothing inexplicable in 40k because it is on that level of ridiculous. 

Of course a same sized nid theme structure would make sense too, but again I have no idea how this is all defined or not so we shall see. PS basically gives you VERY rough guidelines for other race structures and had no point values to them really soooooo... if we have point values it's a step up.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> If you read the codexes you can see instances of other allies too. A few that make sense:
> 
> Dark Eldar and Tau - This is one from fluff where Dark Eldar helped save Tau from the Nids and then basically exploited the hell out of the Tau.
> Marines and Eldar - Something that's happened a few times in the past. Eldar manipulate things so they don't take the majority of the losses and then help to ensure victory.
> Tau and Guard - You could easily have the Guard as a couple of units of humans who have sided with the Tau for the greater good.
> Chaos Marines and Daemons - Obvious Reasons
> Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard - AKA Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard and/or Cultists Armies
> Chaos Marines and/or Daemons and Corteaz Henchmenlist - Rogue Inquisitor and Cultist army backed by Daemons!
> Black Templar and Grey Knights - Because the Black Templar book says Grey Knights are the only psykers they trust.
> 
> I'm sure some folks out there can think of other ones too, but there are PLENTY of fluffy ideas out there that can be used. To say that only one or two armies that exist that make sense to ally with anyone is pretty silly. There are plenty of great thematic builds I could see coming out of this that extend beyond just the Imperium.


You are implying that people will create narratives and make stories that make sense to justify your armies and it won't just be, "the rule book allows this, so I exploited it.". 

You know what I'm saying is true.

Tau slaves is one thing but what we will see us a unit of tau which could easily escape with all their high tech gear. 

Chaos guard is one thing but what we will see is regular guardsmen with no taint of chaos. People aren't going to design and be creative with lore, they are just going to experiment til they find the most uner combos and exploit them. And the new rules just open the game up to even more possibilities. 

I know I'm going to see silly dumb things on the table top but since it's in the rule book, It's all good. 

But I'm tired of arguing about that. I'd rather just wait til I'm right to discuss it more. I'm not saying its going to ruin the game. It's just going to make it a little worse, (maybe a lot worse, can't tell yet).

On another note I'm super pumped about 90% of te rumors. I'm just hoping that gws has the balls to make up all these creative things I'm hearing. Sounds like its going to be a great edition.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Balance aside, does no one else think its stupid that an imperial army and an ork army might have preemptively built a giant tower on the battle field before it started only 50 meters apart? Think about that. Gretchen and humans waving to each other every morning with their hard hats donned building giant towers.
> 
> That's my beef with it. This is 40k not team fortress 2.


The same 40K where the Golden Throne is in the same location as the the Big Wig's toliet at GW Nottingham? The same 40K where a Grot so lucky he got a 2++ Invul save was killed by being sat on? The same 40K where you can have monkeys that shoot lasers? :shok:

Yup. I see nothing but a totally serious game here. :biggrin::so_happy:

In all seriousness, the Imperium would likely use a preexisting building or airdrop one in to fortify a key position, Orks would loot a building or drop one in because the Warboss or Big Mek said so, Nids would GROW something, Eldar would have orcestrated the building being in that exact spot thousands of years ago, Tau would likely have Drones build it or drop it in for the Greater Good, Dark Eldar would turn someone else's building into a futuristic whorehouse to spite people, Daemons would probably find a new way to possess your shit and make it into some horrible nightmare, and Chaos Marines would steal your thing, mount trophy racks on it, then later burn it down to spite you.

As for everyone who keeps pitching a fit over everything they don't like and want to say shouldn't happen or can't happen: It's not that hard to see how this can be feasible in the game if you look past what color they are and if they drive Rhinos or something else. There is a LOT of room in the fluff for this kind of stuff and it makes NO sense to say "well X shouldn't be able to do Y because of Z" because there is a chance that X DID do Y because of Z. And if you don't like it then don't use it. Quit trying to rain on everyone's parade just because you don't like something and want to be a party pooper for rules we can't even see yet. If you don't like it, fine. No one said you have to like everything. But to pull a Chicken Little act over shit is ridiculous. This isn't Whineseer. The sky does not fall here. 6th Edition isn't going to kill 40K just like 5th Edition didn't. And no one cares if you rage quit because of 6th. Because you'll either be back within a year or we didn't want you in our hobby making us look bad.

*/END RANT*

And why yes I am tired of long arguements by people who pull a Chicken Little then go and plug their ears while crying loudly that everything sucks. I'm tired of them because they're making everyone else look bad. War gaming is a hobby that requires dedication and at least a small level of maturity. If you can't handle that, go play on Xbox Live and hang out with the 12 year olds who think that racial slurs are a reasonable response to everything.


----------



## Obinhi

I do belive that I was a SM bunker that looked like a gunless Land Raider with a big door on it. So with that in mind the fortress could have been driven there for all we know.


----------



## LukeValantine

These latest rumors are most troubling indeed. The only positive I see is that such a major redesign will push people to relearn the game and buy tons of new models...surprise surprise.


----------



## Obinhi

LukeValantine said:


> These latest rumors are most troubling indeed. The only positive I see is that such a major redesign will push people to relearn the game and buy tons of new models...surprise surprise.


I wont have to buy anything I dont think...


----------



## Kelann08

clever handle said:


> In 40K is your air support droping a bastion ahead of your dudes only to pick it up 30 minutes later after the fighting has moved on?


Have you read any of the Black Library books involving titans? Do you know how they deploy titans? It makes deploying a bastion look like building a sand castle. If there is one thing in the 40K universe I could experience, it would be witnessing the deployment of a Warlord titan. I get chills just thinking about it.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> The same 40K where the Golden Throne is in the same location as the the Big Wig's toliet at GW Nottingham? The same 40K where a Grot so lucky he got a 2++ Invul save was killed by being sat on? The same 40K where you can have monkeys that shoot lasers? :shok:
> 
> Yup. I see nothing but a totally serious game here. :biggrin::so_happy:
> 
> In all seriousness, the Imperium would likely use a preexisting building or airdrop one in to fortify a key position, Orks would loot a building or drop one in because the Warboss or Big Mek said so, Nids would GROW something, Eldar would have orcestrated the building being in that exact spot thousands of years ago, Tau would likely have Drones build it or drop it in for the Greater Good, Dark Eldar would turn someone else's building into a futuristic whorehouse to spite people, Daemons would probably find a new way to possess your shit and make it into some horrible nightmare, and Chaos Marines would steal your thing, mount trophy racks on it, then later burn it down to spite you.
> 
> As for everyone who keeps pitching a fit over everything they don't like and want to say shouldn't happen or can't happen: It's not that hard to see how this can be feasible in the game if you look past what color they are and if they drive Rhinos or something else. There is a LOT of room in the fluff for this kind of stuff and it makes NO sense to say "well X shouldn't be able to do Y because of Z" because there is a chance that X DID do Y because of Z. And if you don't like it then don't use it. Quit trying to rain on everyone's parade just because you don't like something and want to be a party pooper for rules we can't even see yet. If you don't like it, fine. No one said you have to like everything. But to pull a Chicken Little act over shit is ridiculous. This isn't Whineseer. The sky does not fall here. 6th Edition isn't going to kill 40K just like 5th Edition didn't. And no one cares if you rage quit because of 6th. Because you'll either be back within a year or we didn't want you in our hobby making us look bad.
> 
> */END RANT*
> 
> And why yes I am tired of long arguements by people who pull a Chicken Little then go and plug their ears while crying loudly that everything sucks. I'm tired of them because they're making everyone else look bad. War gaming is a hobby that requires dedication and at least a small level of maturity. If you can't handle that, go play on Xbox Live and hang out with the 12 year olds who think that racial slurs are a reasonable response to everything.


I love these kinds of arguments, " things happen in 40k that can't happen in real life, thus we'll allow every single thing to happen regardless of how silly, because fuck it! It's sci-fi! Aside from the orks, 40k isnt slapstick comedy. Read any of the books and you'll know this. 40k isnt totally realistic, but it isn't 100% absurd at every turn. It's not munchkin, it's a psuedo realistic war game. All of the armies shouldn't play like orks. 

With this kind of argument you focus in on a handful of Silly elements and claim that because some things are silly, that every single thing can be silly at all times. It doesn't work like that. 

As for the dropping of the buildings, I guess. They aren't really modeled to look like that. I think the models imply heavily that they were already there. 

If we are gonna have buildings, I'd prefer an attack and defense scenario where only one player gets to build.

Don't take this to mean that I don't like the comedic elements of 40k. I love it. I just don't like the serious elements to behave in illogical fashion.

I'm also tired of you saying chicken little. Don't you know any other metaphors?


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> I love these kinds of arguments, " things happen in 40k that can't happen in real life, thus we'll allow every single thing to happen regardless of how silly, because fuck it! It's sci-fi! Aside from the orks, 40k isnt slapstick comedy. Read any of the books and you'll know this. 40k isnt totally realistic, but it isn't 100% absurd at every turn. It's not munchkin, it's a psuedo realistic war game. All of the armies shouldn't play like orks.
> 
> With this kind of argument you focus in on a handful of Silly elements and claim that because some things are silly, that every single thing can be silly at all times. It doesn't work like that.
> 
> As for the dropping of the buildings, I guess. They aren't really modeled to look like that. I think the models imply heavily that they were already there.
> 
> If we are gonna have buildings, I'd prefer an attack and defense scenario where only one player gets to build.
> 
> Don't take this to mean that I don't like the comedic elements of 40k. I love it. I just don't like the serious elements to behave in illogical fashion.
> 
> I'm also tired of you saying chicken little. Don't you know any other metaphors?



You're right, 40K _isn't _a slapstick comedy. It's an over the top grimdark universe that takes everything far over the top and is FULL of small hilarious bits. And there are even things we don't even know are comedy bits because they're inside jokes that only the developers really know. If anything 40K is a parody of a lot of things, and I _like_ that it is. It lets us get insanely awesome things (the Exorcist is down right so ridiculous that it is AWESOME in my book). There is more than overly serious Grimdark action there. There is a whole range of comical bits mixed in there that I think should never be overlooked when dealing with the game. Getting to bent out of shape over what is and isn't possible in the universe results in a bad case of "Serious Buisness" to occur and creates even worse cases of "Stop Having Fun!" and "You're Doing it Wrong!".

As for the Chicken Little name it's often because of the "Sky is Falling!" nature of those posts. But I'm sure we could use Goosely Loosey, Foxy Loxy or anyone else from that book who pitches a fit over something as small as a POTENTIAL change in the rules without knowing all the facts. 

While you're getting tired of me saying Chicken Little but I'm getting tired of reading this crap. People saying they don't like rumors or saying they don't like things is fine, but the several page bitchfests DESPITE people pointing out that there are counterpoints to the "awful" that is being cried about are unnessicary and just drag the thread off into the very serious possibility of a flamewar. And in all honesty I expect better of Heresy Online. We despise this kind of crap when Warseer does it, why the hell are we doing it here?


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> You're right, 40K _isn't _a slapstick comedy. It's an over the top grimdark universe that takes everything far over the top and is FULL of small hilarious bits. And there are even things we don't even know are comedy bits because they're inside jokes that only the developers really know. If anything 40K is a parody of a lot of things, and I _like_ that it is. It lets us get insanely awesome things (the Exorcist is down right so ridiculous that it is AWESOME in my book). There is more than overly serious Grimdark action there. There is a whole range of comical bits mixed in there that I think should never be overlooked when dealing with the game. Getting to bent out of shape over what is and isn't possible in the universe results in a bad case of "Serious Buisness" to occur and creates even worse cases of "Stop Having Fun!" and "You're Doing it Wrong!".


See this is the problem with humanity. You think this way and I think a different way. Gws won't be able to satisfy us both. I'm just hoping that they prefer my way of thinking and disregard yours. It's unfortunate that the way I have fun infringes on yours and visa versa but it's the way of life. 

Changing the subject a bit, I hope that adding rules to terrain doesn't cause them to think that they should raise the prices of terrain. I buy a lot of it. I guess I have a head start in that regard. I can start throw bastions and the like around right away.


----------



## Wax

So looks like psychic "schools" are no longer a rumor, unless this is a really good shoop.

I also posted all the dice, templates, etc. here


----------



## Arcane

Well, I played a game against a Necron list with 3 Doom Sythes today with my Sisters of Battle. I won, but only by luck and a thin margin. If I can only hit them on 6s in 6th edition, there is simply no way my army can beat a list like that. 

What GW really needs to address are for all these shiny new toys that a few armies are getting, will the rest of us just be left behind, and if so, what is my incentive to spend an entire day's paycheck on one book which doesn't even benefit my army. (Mind you said army has over $1000 invested in it.) 

How are new played to be expected to pay roughly $200 just to get started in the game for the book, a codex, two troops an HQ and some dice? 

Flyers are obviously just a ploy to get people to have to buy them to be competitive, then you have to buy anti aircraft to face them... on the whole these new rules just show as being a thin veil for a gimmicky bid to make more money. uke:


----------



## Zion

Wax said:


> So looks like psychic "schools" are no longer a rumor, unless this is a really good shoop.


They stopped being a rumor about the time of the psychic cards being on the price list came around.

Now my Spanish isn't all that good, but what I gather from that chart is that Dark Eldar, Daemons, Sisters, Black Templars, Orks and Necrons won't have access to any of the powers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From what I can tell from that list:
Black Templars, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Necrons and Orks can't sure any of the generic psyhic powers.

I think it's odd no faction has access to all powers, I would have expected Eldars and perhaps Tzeentch to have access to all.

Funny how pretty much none of the armies I play can use psyhic powers. Selling off my nids and haven't started buidling my IG and CSM yet so.


Edit: Damn you Ninja!!

Hmm, why can Eldar only use Divination and Telepathy? Aren't they supposed to be the best psykers in the universe? Seems All SM chapters (excluding BT) and CSM have better psykers than Eldar.... Heck CSM not having Biomancy and Divination is retarded as the Thousand Sons have users of those schools. There has to be special rules allowing Thousand Sons and Tzeentch users to have access to all schools of psyhic powers. Anything else would be retarded as they have Biomancers and Divinators in the Thousand Sons book.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I can tell from that list:
> Black Templars, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Necrons and Orks can't sure any of the generic psyhic powers.
> 
> I think it's odd no faction has access to all powers, I would have expected Eldars and perhaps Tzeentch to have access to all.
> 
> Funny how pretty much none of the armies I play can use psyhic powers. Selling off my nids and haven't started buidling my IG and CSM yet so.
> 
> 
> Edit: Damn you Ninja!!


Sorry MadCowCrazy! I was proud of myself, despite not speaking Spanish I figured out what what was what through what little words I know! :biggrin:

For Daemons not getting powers I'm cool with it because personally I think they should be so intune with the Warp that they shouldn't suffer perils. As for the rest of the armies I don't know why, we'll have to see the full powers to really know for sure.


----------



## Eleven

Huh, I'm finding it odd that imperial guard would have more pores available to them than csm will. I can't wait to see. Giving guard 4 out of 5 schools seems suspect. I hope that they don't get powers on par with chaos powers. That would be odd.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Huh, I'm finding it odd that imperial guard would have more pores available to them than csm will. I can't wait to see. Giving guard 4 out of 5 schools seems suspect. I hope that they don't get powers on par with chaos powers. That would be odd.


We don't know exactly how strong these powers are yet, or what they exactly do though, for all we know they might all be weak supportive powers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Eleven said:


> Huh, I'm finding it odd that imperial guard would have more pores available to them than csm will. I can't wait to see. Giving guard 4 out of 5 schools seems suspect. I hope that they don't get powers on par with chaos powers. That would be odd.


From this list the Eldar are the worst psykers in the universe, at least when it comes to the schools of powers they can use :crazy: Everyone else that uses psykers have access to 3 schools or more, even the bugs know 3 schools.
Heck IG have more knowledge about psyhic powers than the Eldars do apparently...

I'm expecting there to be allot of exceptions to this list, either from SCs or other rules.


----------



## khrone forever

I expect the Templars will get some sort of "rage" powers, abit like the empire warriors priests.

I would think the ts sorcers and the deamons will get a special deamonic set of powers.



> Heck IG have more knowledge about psyhic powers than the Eldars do apparently...


 i would predict that the Eldar will get their own "path" of powers, abit like the extra lores that they added for fantasy, like nekehara for the TK


----------



## Kelann08

Why are the early scans always in Spanish?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More Pics


----------



## Me-dea

Huraaay they included Sisters of battle in the new BRB. I was soo woried they will be squated.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Seems floodgates have opened, here is some more info from Eldargal
Source


> [10:35:09] <source> Ok
> [10:35:13] <source> so GW is spoilin 6E
> [10:35:15] <source> over the phone
> [10:35:23] <source> allies chart is in for sure, a matrix
> [10:40:13] <source> you need 1 HQ 2 Troop of your own army
> [10:40:26] <source> then you can ally, need 1 HQ 1 Troop of that army
> [10:40:31] <source> then may take other slots
> [10:45:49] <source> it's still move shoot assault
> [10:46:01] <source> "snapshop" = stand and shoot for an assaulted unit
> [10:46:20] <source> BS1
> [10:46:58] <source> no template or blast
> [10:47:32] <source> someone gimme a BoLS link so I can confirm/deny ****
> [10:48:04] <source> "schools of psychic powers"
> [10:48:11] <source> not sure if its random though
> [10:50:44] <source> these psychic powers are IN ADDITION to your codex powers
> [10:51:11] <source> so you don't lose any of the powers in a current codex
> [10:52:25] <source> premeasure all the time
> [10:52:40] <source> random charges 2d6 for foot, 3d6 drop lowest for jump pack troops
> [10:53:05] <source> jump pack troops get "hammer of wrath" = impact hits, 1 A @ I 10, normwal weapon normal attack
> [10:53:35] <source> for jump packs, not sure about wings, maybe
> [10:53:41] <source> he only got to look at the book for an hour
> [10:53:46] <source> to "pick topics for customers"
> [11:00:13] <source> 6 missions, and 3 deployment zones
> [11:00:23] <source> primary and 3 secondary objectives
> [11:00:28] <source> vps for objectives
> [11:00:35] <chip> source
> [11:00:37] <chip> you have the book?
> [11:00:45] <chip> oh, over the phone
> [11:00:48] <source> yeh
> [11:01:02] <source> "first blood" = 2nd objective
> [11:01:09] <source> worth 1 vp
> [11:01:37] <source> any questions chip?
> [11:01:42] <source> I got him for like 10 mins more maybe ;p
> [11:01:50] <chip> can special characters be brought as allies
> [11:02:07] <source> he didn't see any limit on it no
> [11:02:25] <source> no more dawn of war, no more spearhead
> [11:02:41] <source> one is like triangles
> [11:02:44] <source> cleanse 2?
> [11:02:47] <chip> vehicle damage chart info?
> [11:03:13] <source> as in?
> [11:03:27] <chip> 1's stacking to destroyed? hull points?
> [11:03:30] <chip> either/or/and
> [11:04:20] <source> short edge to short edge deployment type
> [11:04:21] <source> lol
> [11:04:52] <chip> no ****ing way
> [11:05:13] <chip> Can you get info about different CCW AP values
> [11:05:20] <source> he didn't look at that
> [11:05:26] <source> I did ask, there is somethin about CCWs
> [11:05:37] <source> power weapon is AP2
> [11:06:35] <chip> You sure about that? Pretty confident people said AP3
> [11:07:45] <source> there is a hull point systemm, damage chart changed
> [11:08:03] <source> 1-2 shaked 3 = stuned 4 = weapon destroyed 5 = wrecked 6 = kablam
> [11:08:25] <source> he didnt seen an immobile on the chart
> [11:08:42] <source> he just "Saw that it said AP2, not sure what it was about"
> [11:09:20] <chip> oh crazy
> [11:10:05] <source> terrain is a part of the FoC
> [11:10:13] <source> aegis defense line 50pts
> [11:10:27] <source> cover is 5+
> [11:11:18] <chip> wow
> [11:11:21] <chip> thats way cheaper than i thought
> [11:11:39] <chip> any example psychic powers?
> 11:12:31] <source> nope
> [11:12:42] <source> "fortifcation FOC slot"
> [11:13:09] <source> 1 per game
> [11:14:38] <chip> so no tables full of terrain
> [11:15:57] <source> err sorry 1 per player per game
> [11:16:25] <source> rapid fire is half range not 12"
> [11:17:47] <chip> oh interesting
> [11:17:51] <source> rapid fire isnt limited by movement
> [11:17:52] <chip> but aren't rapid fire guns 24"
> [11:17:55] <chip> so half range is 12"
> [11:18:09] <source> snapshot is also for HWs that have moved
> [11:18:52] <chip> wait, so you can fire a krak missile as a snapshot?
> [11:19:06] <source> yes
> [11:19:10] <source> BS1
> [11:19:22] <source> heavy bolter that moves = 3 shots at BS1
> [11:20:54] <chip> thats insane


Taus Pulse Rifles are 30" Range so can Rapid Fire 15", small boost for them.


----------



## Zion

Me-dea said:


> Huraaay they included Sisters of battle in the new BRB. I was soo woried they will be squated.


GW has made it clear they aren't squatting anymore 40K armies sometime ago. Anyone who says otherwise is just being a hater.

@MadCowCrazy - I've added the pictures to the 1st post. Does this count as the floodgates being open yet?


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems floodgates have opened, here is some more info from Eldargal
> Source
> 
> 
> Taus Pulse Rifles are 30" Range so can Rapid Fire 15", small boost for them.


I'm not throwing these into the first post as most are just re-postings of other info we've already seen. There are a COUPLE of small bits in there that are new/different but some contradict what other established sources have said (like AP2 Power Weapons). Plus I believe most of this is coming from a separate forum that Warseer that was linked to in their 6th edition rumors thread, where many of the rumors were being heavily debated as even being close to "right".

TL;DR: Validity is sketching on these.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Does this count as the floodgates being open yet?


Ninja......


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Ninja......


Touche.


----------



## Kettu

Me-dea said:


> Huraaay they included Sisters of battle in the new BRB. I was soo woried they will be squated.


Here's the big question though.
Is that their only mention?:spiteful:




Zion said:


> GW has made it clear they aren't squatting anymore 40K armies sometime ago. Anyone who says otherwise is just being a hater.


Didn't they also say that all armies would get updated for 5th?
That all armies would get at least their basic troops done in plastic?
That all armies would get at least a few finecast options within a year?

I'm just saying...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Here's the big question though.
> Is that their only mention?:spiteful:


Nah, there will be another mention of the GKs inviting Tyranids for dinner where they get to drink the blood of virgins and feast on the flesh of sisters, after dinner the Grandmaster and the Swarmlord take a bubble bath together in pure virgin Sisters blood. It's good for keeping their skin looking fresh and young...


Here are some translations from the spanish page

Codex: Blood Angels
- Librarians (including Mephiston) May choose to EXCHANGE their Codex Psychic Powers for the Psychic Powers found in the 40k Rulebook. If they choose to do so they may take 2 powers from the following disciplines: Biomancy? Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis before deployment.


Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Any model with psychic powers may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k Rulebook instead of the C:CSM. If you choose to do so, for every psychic power that you have paid for from C:CSM you make take 1 psychic power from the following disciplines: Piromancy? Telekinesis or Telepathy before deployment. Models may choose to get their powers from different disciplines. Typhus generates 2 powers, Ahriman generates 3 powers.


----------



## Ghost-Bat

MadCowCrazy said:


> Nah, there will be another mention of the GKs inviting Tyranids for dinner where they get to drink the blood of virgins and feast on the flesh of sisters, after dinner the Grandmaster and the Swarmlord take a bubble bath together in pure virgin Sisters blood. It's good for keeping their skin looking fresh and young...


For in the Grim, Dark future, there is only Head & Shoulders.


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> Didn't they also say that all armies would get updated for 5th?
> That all armies would get at least their basic troops done in plastic?
> That all armies would get at least a few finecast options within a year?
> 
> I'm just saying...


I never saw that GW said any of those things (though I may have missed something on the Finecast one) so I'm assuming that we're talking about rumors now instead of actual statements by GW.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Nah, there will be another mention of the GKs inviting Tyranids for dinner where they get to drink the blood of virgins and feast on the flesh of sisters, after dinner they Grandmaster and the Swarmlord take a bubble bath together in pure virgin Sisters blood. It's good for keeping their skin looking fresh and young...


If this happens I'm SO blaming you.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ghost-Bat said:


> For in the Grim, Dark future, there is only Head & Shoulders.


Yeah.... LITERALLY....

Anyways, I increased the size of the 6E CE book. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice a striking resemblance between the pic and the WD spine picture...


----------



## Kettu

Zion said:


> I never saw that GW said any of those things (though I may have missed something on the Finecast one) so I'm assuming that we're talking about rumors now instead of actual statements by GW.


Sorry I can't source any of them atm, my free time is a rare commodity till july.

Allegedly JJ said the first one back at the advent of 5th.
The plastics one was mentioned wayback in 2005 or 06 by someone on the design team at one of the American GDs. Allegedly.
And the finecast one was something that the managers were all told to say if asked. (At least in NSW as far as I know. I even confirmed this at six different GW stores. (Yes, I live within easy reach of SIX different stores. An hour or less via train))


----------



## Kelann08

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yeah.... LITERALLY....
> 
> Anyways, I increased the size of the 6E CE book. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice a striking resemblance between the pic and the WD spine picture...


Good catch. I see Dark Angels and, what looks like, White Scars. Not sure what the fellow on the left is. The far left (cut out of this pictures) is Ultramarines.


----------



## Kelann08

Looking more closely at the Vehicle Dice, you don't see numbers but rather graphical representations. Here's my thought, and ignore me if this has been brought up. There's a chart we already saw: 1-2 = shaken, 3 = X, 4 = Y, etc. That chart is for AP 4 weapons or weaker. If you hit with an AP 3, 2 or 1, you roll one of those new dice and a picture represents what happens. The AP 3 dice might have more weapon destroyed. The AP 1 dice might have 4 sides that are explosion and two that are wrecked. Not sure how it ties in with hull points. Could be way off base.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kelann08 said:


> The AP 1 dice might have 4 sides that are explosion and two that are wrecked. Not sure how it ties in with hull points. Could be way off base.


So a pen with AP1 would auto destroy any vehicle, I dont think GW would be that stupid. Melta spam would become even more common as it's one of the few things to kill Terminators with and auto destroy a vehicle on a pen would just be OP.


----------



## maddermax

I think this was mostly covered in Madcows post on the last page, but this is from the Tyranid Hive:



> Courtesy of a friend from Games Workshop who has spent time with the Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook. We (manager of my LGS) sent him a list of questions and these were his answers. Alot of IDK's, but some good stuff in there too.
> 
> Did the Force Org chart change?
> 
> No, the force org has not changed. It is still 1 HQ and 2 Troops. 3 Fast Attack, 3 Elites, 3 Heavy Support. Although, allies allows you in certain situati...ons to to add an HQ from another army and 1 Troop. You also, once you have satisfied the minimums can take 1 Fast, 1 Elite and 1 Heavy for you allies also. After your list is 2,000 pts, it appears you can double the Force Org chart. So up to four HQ with allies.
> 
> 
> Is there pre-measuring for actions? (which ones?)
> 
> Pre-measure anytime and anywhere.
> 
> What AP are: Chain Swords, Power Swords, Power Fists, Chain Fists, Thunder Hammers?
> 
> I do not know.
> 
> Cover Save for: Buildings, Ruins, Area Terrain (trees and whatnot)?
> 
> Cover saves seem less forgiving. I would expect less, I know being in woods or trees is now 5+. Also, if you have (Example) 4 guys that are not in terrain. I, being the shooting player, can target just those guys that are not in cover. I have no opportunity to kill the guys in cover although. Interesting.
> 
> What is the assault / charge distance?
> 
> 2D6
> 
> Do vehicles have hull points?
> 
> Yes
> 
> How are psychic powers determined?
> 
> Leadership tests, everyone can attempt to nullify a psychic power.
> 
> Is 'overwatch' (like Necromunda) in the rules - how does it work?
> 
> Snap Shot is the rule. Any unit being charged can make a snap shot at BS 1. They use the full profile of the weapon. You can also use snapshot offensively, that meaning my tactical squad even if I move, I can shoot my Lascannon at BS 1. No template weapons, tanks benefit from this rule.
> 
> Is there a defensive fire mechanic (snapfire) for units being assaulted in the rules - how does it work?
> 
> See above.
> 
> Where does the red fern grow?
> 
> Somewhere in the Ozarks.
> 
> Will you declare and move types (like assault and/or run) in the move phase ala fantasy?
> 
> No
> 
> how will fleet usr work, especially if run is removed
> 
> Run is not removed. Fleet means you can re-roll you run or re-roll one of the D6 to charge.
> 
> Are flyers hit on 6's with shooting weapons and if true are there ways to mitigate that.
> 
> Flyers are hit on 6's if they perform a Zoom maneuver.
> 
> Details on how allies will work? Will it be on a codex by codex basis (eg CSM codex is rumored to allow IG and Chaos Demons via allies), with very specific unit allowances, more generic FOC based like the old demonhunter and witchhunter rules or fairly open ended anything goes.
> 
> There are three categories of allies. Lots of potential, I am not sure of the chart off the top of my head. CSM do get traitor guard, I also believe Demons. Tau have SM and Eldar. Lots of other arrangements. Tyranids get no one....but lots of Monstrous creature special rules added for their pleasure. Stomp, Impact Hits etc.
> 
> Psychic defense and abilities for armies without psychers? Rumor that all units get a 6+ save against psychic powers. Another rumor that their might be ways for Tau etc to get psychers.
> 
> I believe everyone will have access to some sort of psyker. 6+ is true for everyone.
> 
> Whats the effect on embarked units when transport is damaged, wrecked, penned etc. Can they more easily go about their business like 5ed, or entagled like 4ed, or something in between.
> 
> Similar, not sure. Much harder to blow up vehicles. Vehicle Damage chart has change as well as Deep Strike Mishap has changed.
> 
> Monstrous creature rules revamped at all? Like how do they get cover saves, are they more/less surviable, do they retain 2d6 pen, Ap of their cc attacks
> 
> Not sure, see above in allies for some info.
> 
> How will reserves work in the standard missions? Still always an option? Updates to determining when units arrive? Outflanking updated or same?
> 
> Normally it seems
> 
> Can you assault after deepstrike?
> 
> No
> 
> Changes to how units fire out of a vehicle (like say if it moves can only one model fire, is their range reduced, do they gain relentless)
> 
> None that I noticed
> 
> Assault weapons work different now? Can you still shoot and assault or ill they get some sort of ability to fire or affect on the charge?
> 
> I believe this is the same.


----------



## Kelann08

MadCowCrazy said:


> So a pen with AP1 would auto destroy any vehicle, I dont think GW would be that stupid. Melta spam would become even more common as it's one of the few things to kill Terminators with and auto destroy a vehicle on a pen would just be OP.


Don't take it literally. That's purely an example of what may be there. It may be a bad example the but the theory holds: depending on the AP of the source of a shot, different results may be more likely. The dice allow them to vary the likelihood of shaken/weapon destroyed with a wrecked/explosion result.


----------



## LukeValantine

From what I am seeing this could be a major redesign more then a cleaning up like it was from 4-5th so the ap1 melta spam may indeed actually get worse this edition....or maybe melta weapons will become ap2 who knows.


----------



## Vanchet

The Look Awesome!! :d Definitely Need A Tape Measure And Templates :d


----------



## maddermax

Vanchet said:


> The Look Awesome!! :d Definitely Need A Tape Measure And Templates :d


They look alright... but the tape measure looks especially impractical for gaming (trying to get down inbetween miniatures with the large bulky skull), and I think I'd prefer a normal see-through template for gaming purposes. Form over function I suppose.


----------



## yanlou

SilverTabby said:


> I can see your point, but I am also fairly confident that if you buy terrain with your points, you're likely to have to deploy it in very certain ways. Most likely, in your own deployment zone or very close to it. And if you spend all your points on restrictive terrain designed to f**k your opponent, you aren't spending it on your actual army. Which screws yourself over more.
> 
> For example:
> Bob: Yay, I've got minefields and tangled jungles all over the middle of the table! Eat that, Nid player!
> Jeff: That's nice. I've got 6 scoring units and 5 other units that will take all the objectives. You've got your commander and 2 troops...
> 
> 
> 
> As someone who was working in the Studio throughout the writing and designing of both the Daemon Codex and 5th Ed, I can quite happily tell you it wasn't written with 6th in mind. Sorry.


Thank you at least thats far more constructive then "thank you too" from mcmuffin, stupid useless comment.

And it was only an theory, but no proof at the time or anything convincing to disprove it just elitist crap coming from them.

This is one of the reasons i dont post much because of elitist people on this forum. 



mcmuffin said:


> Thank you too.


Do you want to know the reasoning behind my theory,
Well lets see, with advent of the allies rule coming back, my theory was that the devs had this in mind (aswelll as other more pressing reasons at the time) for a while (now i know thats not true) and by making daemons have there own codex would allow them to be overall more powerful and diverse then just been a few entries in the CSM dex, this would make them more powerful as allies for CSMs and free up space in the next CSM dex for more interesting units while allowing CSMs to still have access to Daemons.

And ill add one more speculation, i speculate Daemons as allies will be able to use the Icon of Chaos from the next CSM dex the same as from there own dex, now imagine that, a cheap 5 man CSM squad with Icon in a rhino with no upgrades rushing in and a Soul Grinder using the Icon to Deep Strike right in front of a valubale squad.


----------



## Me-dea

Tape measure is meeeh. It could at least have build in laser pointer in one eye :-(
Also bulky, unpractical.

I also dont like new templates, will stick to old ones BUT maybe its just the images, have to see in real.

Dices are nice. But may be impracticaly large if 12mm (im using lots of small dices) and hard to read (again must see in real for this).

Collectors and gaming editions are also not what I expected. I really like the metal box that i get with 5ed book. Was hoping for something simmilar, not some "leatherette" satchet.

Lasgun power packs looks nice, sadly they dont go with metal box for bolt rounds.


----------



## SilverTabby

'tis ok. For most discussions I just wade in like everyone else. When someone has a specific Studio question (or complaint) I try to accurately answer the question. I'm afraid I can get a bit defensive sometimes, but so many people assume and assign blame where it isn't warranted, and the chaps there really are nice people. 

It's why I'm happy to sit back and wait to read the BRB. I know they'll have done their best to balance things. There's always something someone will have missed though: 6 or so writers vs the internet - someone's gonna find a loophole. Any major wtf? moments usually come around because upper management have waded in with a stick and said "WANT THAT!" and the guys have had to struggle to include it or face retribution. It happens quite a bit - one example is Guardians in the Eldar codex. Phil wrote them good, then went on holiday. He came back to find them crap...


----------



## slaaneshy

On the psyker thing, since allies are in, you could pretty much take any psychic power with an ally if your wanting one you don't have???


----------



## Kelann08

slaaneshy said:


> On the psyker thing, since allies are in, you could pretty much take any psychic power with an ally if your wanting one you don't have???


Certainly a possibility. Then again, they may restrict you to only picking psychic powers available to your main force. There was a rumor that indicated "everyone will have access to psykers in some way" so it may be referring to this.


----------



## misfratz

Arcane said:


> Flyers are obviously just a ploy to get people to have to buy them to be competitive, then you have to buy anti aircraft to face them... on the whole these new rules just show as being a thin veil for a gimmicky bid to make more money. uke:


No, flyers are cool. Seriously, people have been eager for proper flyer rules for 40K for ages, and it was a model of a flyer - the Thunderhawk Gunship - that pretty much single-handedly launched Forge World (one of the only bits of GW currently experiencing strong turnover growth).

Proper flyer rules imply something that cannot be easily downed by a power fist or a melta-gun. Yes, this will be something that will be hard to "balance" for an army that does not have any specialised anti-aircraft units, or fighter aircraft of its own, but then that's just another dimension of needing to have units in your army that can tackle tanks, or lots of infantry.

The flyer models are cool, and I will be adding some to my armies for that reason, and not because the rules supposedly force me to do so in order to have a chance of winning.

I enjoy this game and hobby, and I look forward to handing over some of my money to GW in return for diverse models with diverse rules.


----------



## mcmuffin

yanlou said:


> Thank you at least thats far more constructive then "thank you too" from mcmuffin, stupid useless comment.
> 
> And it was only an theory, but no proof at the time or anything convincing to disprove it just elitist crap coming from them.
> 
> This is one of the reasons i dont post much because of elitist people on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you want to know the reasoning behind my theory,
> Well lets see, with advent of the allies rule coming back, my theory was that the devs had this in mind (aswelll as other more pressing reasons at the time) for a while (now i know thats not true) and by making daemons have there own codex would allow them to be overall more powerful and diverse then just been a few entries in the CSM dex, this would make them more powerful as allies for CSMs and free up space in the next CSM dex for more interesting units while allowing CSMs to still have access to Daemons.
> 
> And ill add one more speculation, i speculate Daemons as allies will be able to use the Icon of Chaos from the next CSM dex the same as from there own dex, now imagine that, a cheap 5 man CSM squad with Icon in a rhino with no upgrades rushing in and a Soul Grinder using the Icon to Deep Strike right in front of a valubale squad.


1. There is no need to attack me or call me elitist or any of the utter shite you just posted.

2. onto the second part of your post. basically, yes, i'm sure now that GW have allies in their rules they will be able to integrate CSM and daemons. I never said otherwise. However the book was not written with this intention in mind


----------



## SGMAlice

No idea why this has not been done already but i think its prudent to provide a list of the new products in GBP as well as in USD.

One can reasonably assume that they will follow the exchange rate, therefore:



> Rule book - £47.22
> Munitorum Templates - £12.56
> Servo Skull Tape Measure - £10.49
> Psychic Powers (English) 32 Cards, Leaflet - £8.42
> Munitorum Dice 12 Dice, 6 Dice Holders, Tin - £10.49
> Munitorum Battlefield Objectives - £10.49
> Munitorum Vehicle Markers 12 Dice - £10.49
> Gamers' Edition (English) Rulebook, Dice Set, Satchel - £78.69
> Collectors' Edition Rulebook - £83.94


It can also be assumed that they will round UP the prices. £10.49 items will most likely be 10.50 and so on and so forth. If you do put this in the first post, you may want to do that for simplicities sake.


Alice


----------



## Sethis

So, let's go with *worst case scenario* - Aegis Defence Line costs 50pts. For approx 24" of Wall that can be put down in multiple sections and a quad linked Autocannon with Anti-Air capability.

Yes, I can see why every single army wouldn't want that. No, wait, I can't.

Also this little gem for those of you who love playing melee armies vs shooty armies:



> short edge to short edge deployment type


And surprise surprise, the Imperial Guard have more versatile psykers than a race that has been _using psychic powers since before humanity even evolved from monkeys and whose entire society and technology is based upon psychic control and manipulation_. Nice one.

Also, anyone who can ally with Grey Knights can now spend 100pts for Coteaz and add DCA, Paladins and a Psyfleman to their army. Sounds good to me.



> Not sure what the fellow on the left is.


Looks like a Grey Knight to me. Force weapon in the air, blunt faced helm under the arm, what looks like a book on his left shoulderpad? Possibly.



> Flyers are hit on 6's if they perform a Zoom maneuver


So if we call "Zoom" another word for "Flat out" then you need 6s to stop that Storm Raven doing it every turn and multi-melta-ing your vehicles through POTMS? Sounds like a giggle.



> This is one of the reasons i dont post much because of elitist people on this forum.


Really? I would have thought that the vast majority of people would have reacted to the statement "GW planned the Daemons codex to work hand in hand with 6th edition" in pretty much the same way, regardless of which website you're on.



> No, flyers are cool. Seriously, people have been eager for proper flyer rules for 40K for ages


Really? Almost everyone I've spoken to at my club and online thinks Flyer rules are retarded. Different strokes, I guess.



> While you're getting tired of me saying Chicken Little but I'm getting tired of reading this crap. People saying they don't like rumors or saying they don't like things is fine, but the several page bitchfests DESPITE people pointing out that there are counterpoints to the "awful" that is being cried about are unnessicary and just drag the thread off into the very serious possibility of a flamewar. And in all honesty I expect better of Heresy Online. We despise this kind of crap when Warseer does it, why the hell are we doing it here?


You're posting rumours. Why? If it was just for people to look at, then the thread would be locked so only Mods could add info, and there would be no debate. If you're posting in an open thread it's because you want to hear what other people think about the rumours.

Some people will think that the rumours are cool. Some people will think the rumours are crap. Some people will like some rumours, and hate others.

Human nature being what it is, most people who make the effort to post are doing so because they are registering their displeasure at something - like myself, who has been reading but ignoring all the rumours posted here for months. I've been reasonably on board with a lot of rumours so far, but the terrain one made me angry enough to post.

People are people. Getting angry about that doesn't solve anything. And for the record, I see a difference between getting angry at the *rumour* and getting angry at *people on the forum*. Anger at rumours doesn't cause flame wars, anger at people however, does. That is why I have not taken your comments about "bitchfests", "crying" and "crap" personally, despite the fact that they may very well be aimed at me. In fact it seems to be the people advocating "It might not be that bad" who are getting all worked up about this; which is, tbh, a little ironic.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Looking at the new psychic powers chart, how the hell do Guard get more psychic powers than CSM? 
It's a small thing but it strikes me as more than a little odd.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> Looking at the new psychic powers chart, how the hell do Guard get more psychic powers than CSM?
> It's a small thing but it strikes me as more than a little odd.


A wider variety of psykers due to them drawing from a larger pool of psykers with different talents?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

I suppose so, I just can't see how a Guard psyker gets to choose from more powers than Ahriman, it could be cleared up in the Chaos Dex when it comes out.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Eh I don't find 40k to be a complete joke but when the space humans and the super space humans are locked in a space war with the space orks and space elves and all the other space crap it seems a lot of things are very plausible.

Like this pskyer school list... I wonder if that's intended to be mixed with the codex though because Eldar already have a decent number of powers in it. Maybe that balances it out? Still not entirely getting the scope of this system. Because it does suggest the best has a fewest options... Unless we're reading this wrong.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> I suppose so, I just can't see how a Guard psyker gets to choose from more powers than Ahriman, it could be cleared up in the Chaos Dex when it comes out.


Well that and when we see what these powers do exactly. I am willing to bet that a good portion of these new powers are geared towards being support powers more than directly dealing damage ones.


----------



## mcmuffin

Ahriman will have his own lore called the Book of Magnus. /wishlist


----------



## maddermax

Pre-measuring, then rolling all the Snap Fire shots are going to make games take a bit longer I think. So now for an assault, instead of just moving 6", you'll be pre-measuring, rolling 2d6, possibly rerolling if you're fleet or jump infantry, rolling a bunch of Snap Fire shots, removing casualties from the front, then remeasuring from whats left of the unit, then moving. Streamlined.



normtheunsavoury said:


> I suppose so, I just can't see how a Guard psyker gets to choose from more powers than Ahriman, it could be cleared up in the Chaos Dex when it comes out.


I'm betting Chaos (and quite a few of the other armies) will be getting their own psychic power lists in the new Codex. I mean, they still have access to the ones in the codex now, but when the new codex comes out, I think they'll get powers in line with those in the BRB, with a deck and a random roll. Perhaps they'll even get one for each God (barring Khorne of course!) which would give them access to 6 decks. I could see something similar happening with Eldar getting one or two extra disciplines, and Orks, of course, would have nothing but their own brand of orky waaaagh magic.


----------



## mcmuffin

It hasnt mentioned that they are randomly chosen, which leads me to believe that you get to choose the powers. Thats cool by me


----------



## Sethis

Key point (which is one of the few saving graces form this latest crop): There is no mention of random rolls to generate psychic powers.



> "schools of psychic powers"
> [10:48:11] <source> not sure if its random though





> Codex: Blood Angels
> - Librarians (including Mephiston) May choose to EXCHANGE their Codex Psychic Powers for the Psychic Powers found in the 40k Rulebook. If they choose to do so they may take 2 powers from the following disciplines: Biomancy? Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis before deployment.


That BA quote seems to imply that you may choose two powers in the same manner as you can currently, you simply swap the list available.

That's what I'm praying, anyway.


----------



## Zion

Sethis said:


> Key point (which is one of the few saving graces form this latest crop): There is no mention of random rolls to generate psychic powers.
> 
> That BA quote seems to imply that you may choose two powers in the same manner as you can currently, you simply swap the list available.
> 
> That's what I'm praying, anyway.


I've seen a lot of references to choosing myself.


----------



## mcmuffin

Zion said:


> I've seen a lot of references to choosing myself.


If that's true then i'm all for the new variation of psy powers, though they'd need to be pretty damn good to replace JotWW or Living lightning


----------



## Bindi Baji

mcmuffin said:


> It hasnt mentioned that they are randomly chosen, which leads me to believe that you get to choose the powers. Thats cool by me


The incoming Psychic Storm-brew expansion includes a highly detailed pewter kettle, a tea strainer and specially branded 40k tea,
it sounds like you make the tea normally, drink it and then read the psychic remains in your mug,
admittedly it means the game last an extra hour or two but it does keep you refreshed!


----------



## normtheunsavoury

But I drink coffee and don't like tea, damn you GW, damn you to hell! You've ruined my game and I hate you!


----------



## Sethis

Don't worry, the second expansion contains a silver-effect tin plated coffee percolater, as well as a fine imitation-china saucer for you to tip the granules out into.


----------



## All_Is_Dust

Very nice thanks for the photos. Must has Servo Skull Measure...


----------



## Gret79

What about the special edition?

3 new flavours of tea, with a carry bag, extra spoons, cup in the shape of a skull (with real eye and mouth holes), actual china saucer for the discerning gentleman and a cafetiere?

Only £80...


----------



## boreas

normtheunsavoury said:


> Looking at the new psychic powers chart, how the hell do Guard get more psychic powers than CSM?
> It's a small thing but it strikes me as more than a little odd.


I think that the availability of powers to an Army might be compensated by the actual ability to use that power. To actually get a Level 1 psyker in a IG army (one with lousy Ld, at that), you have to invest in a unit (like a psyker squad), then lose this unit's basic power. To the other end of the scale, my regular GK list has basically all-psykers units. So, I can lose "warp quake" on a unit of GKSS to get a pyromancy power? Cool.

What I wonder, though, is how GK vehicles will be treated?

Edit: GW is braking down my resistance. All those cool goodies. Must resist! But still, I've bought the collector's edition 5th ed rulebook and regretted it. Too unwieldy, it stayed in my bookshelf the whole time. Same with all special edition stuff (like the laser pointers that broke to quickly). The lasgun power-pack is cool, but will end up at the bottom of a drawer.


----------



## Mokuren

Sethis said:


> So if we call "Zoom" another word for "Flat out" then you need 6s to stop that Storm Raven doing it every turn and multi-melta-ing your vehicles through POTMS? Sounds like a giggle.


So, like I feared, if anyone fields a Stormraven I practically have to concede before 1st turn. Fun.



maddermax said:


> Pre-measuring, then rolling all the Snap Fire shots are going to make games take a bit longer I think. So now for an assault, instead of just moving 6", you'll be pre-measuring, rolling 2d6, possibly rerolling if you're fleet or jump infantry, rolling a bunch of Snap Fire shots, removing casualties from the front, then remeasuring from whats left of the unit, then moving. Streamlined.


I like pre-measuring, and don't mind that it balances out with random charge lengths, but between pre-measuring, snapshotting psyflemen and casualties being removed from the front... Is it me or they're practically punishing CC from ever existing?

Unless you're SPACE MARINE, of course, but then again SPACE MARINES are also the bestestestESTESTEST*EST* psykers in the entire universe, no holds barred, get the best toys, the best super special awesome snowflake rules and the most rules and model updates than all other armies combined.

This is getting beyond ridiculous: I'm kind of used to rules openly contradicting fluff, but Ahriman and thousand sons instantly forgetting about biomancy and divination on top of everything else? Eldar being considerably worse at psychic powers than the freaking *IMPERIAL GUARD*?

Yes, yes, okay, I know that these are only the _generic_ powers and codex-specific stuff will very easily remain as an option in case you don't like the generic powers and stuff, but until they get updated it is, again, repeat with me, SPACE MARINES that get the bestestest_est_ rules and options even as far as psykers go. Oh, also, yes you can switch powers but you have to buy them first, except Space Marines get them for free! Lol!

Not that they would want to change them, I mean, theirs are pretty damn good already.

This makes me wonder though, are all "generic" powers priced differently? Considering the entire game line is based entirely around Space Marines and they get their powers for free I would say no, but does this mean I can buy Doombolt for a chaos psyker and switch it with any power that they have access to? IF so, can I buy Doombolt more than once so I can save a bit on the super-retarded costs for being capable of using the shitty subpar powers of chaos?


----------



## Eleven

What I want to know is if I'll be able to take powers from the codex and the new spells on the same character. 

For instance, a chaos sorcerer, can I take lash and then with a familiar, take one of the new powers too?

Or will it have to be all new or all old on a character.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> That BA quote seems to imply that you may choose two powers in the same manner as you can currently, you simply swap the list available.
> 
> That's what I'm praying, anyway.


That's why I was thinking the great psyker Eldar have few options to pick from because if you can still use the codex they have plenty of options as it is and if the codex can update the disciplines you have access to they can change that out later. This seems like a logical way to transition except one thing... If you have to pay points for powers do you have to pay points for these BRB powers? Or have Eldar (an possibly others) just become cheaper psykers?


----------



## Sethis

Karyudo-DS said:


> That's why I was thinking the great psyker Eldar have few options to pick from because if you can still use the codex they have plenty of options as it is and if the codex can update the disciplines you have access to they can change that out later. This seems like a logical way to transition except one thing...


You're missing the part where Farseers have 5 powers. 2 of them totally shitty. Grand total of 3 effective powers.

Now count how many Marines/Grey Knights get.



Karyudo-DS said:


> If you have to pay points for powers do you have to pay points for these BRB powers? Or have Eldar (an possibly others) just become cheaper psykers?


According to the Chaos description, you buy powers as normal and then replace them. So Eldar buy theirs for 20-35pts each, and GKs buy theirs for 5pts.

I agree that this could be a worse transition, but only allowing Eldar access to 2 lores (regardless of what their future book might contain) while allowing Imperials access to double that is just a slap in the face.


----------



## Wax

Mokuren said:


> So, like I feared, if anyone fields a Stormraven I practically have to concede before 1st turn. Fun.
> 
> Eldar being considerably worse at psychic powers than the freaking *IMPERIAL GUARD*?


Because it's worth it to play 200 pts for a flying multi-melta that can, at best, kill one tank a turn?

Also, if you're playing Eldar why would you want to use anything besides fortune and doom? IG will _not_ be "better" than Eldar at psy-stuffs.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> You're missing the part where Farseers have 5 powers. 2 of them totally shitty. Grand total of 3 effective powers.


Storm and Mindwar? Don't seem terrible but I don't often pick them over the others. Well that and storm is only great out scatters right to get you better shots on vehicles. Plus the minor warlock powers.

The thing though, do we know how many you get per discipline anyway? I already have my favorite powers so I'm going to try the new ones but I have a feeling I'm going to be using the codex ones plenty anyway, utilitarian options are nice.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> So, like I feared, if anyone fields a Stormraven I practically have to concede before 1st turn. Fun.
> 
> 
> 
> I like pre-measuring, and don't mind that it balances out with random charge lengths, but between pre-measuring, snapshotting psyflemen and casualties being removed from the front... Is it me or they're practically punishing CC from ever existing?
> 
> Unless you're SPACE MARINE, of course, but then again SPACE MARINES are also the bestestestESTESTEST*EST* psykers in the entire universe, no holds barred, get the best toys, the best super special awesome snowflake rules and the most rules and model updates than all other armies combined.
> 
> This is getting beyond ridiculous: I'm kind of used to rules openly contradicting fluff, but Ahriman and thousand sons instantly forgetting about biomancy and divination on top of everything else? Eldar being considerably worse at psychic powers than the freaking *IMPERIAL GUARD*?
> 
> Yes, yes, okay, I know that these are only the _generic_ powers and codex-specific stuff will very easily remain as an option in case you don't like the generic powers and stuff, but until they get updated it is, again, repeat with me, SPACE MARINES that get the bestestest_est_ rules and options even as far as psykers go. Oh, also, yes you can switch powers but you have to buy them first, except Space Marines get them for free! Lol!
> 
> Not that they would want to change them, I mean, theirs are pretty damn good already.
> 
> This makes me wonder though, are all "generic" powers priced differently? Considering the entire game line is based entirely around Space Marines and they get their powers for free I would say no, but does this mean I can buy Doombolt for a chaos psyker and switch it with any power that they have access to? IF so, can I buy Doombolt more than once so I can save a bit on the super-retarded costs for being capable of using the shitty subpar powers of chaos?


Glad to see that we're not overreacting over powers that may horribly suck. Also seeing as Eldar can roll additional +D6 and discard the highest for all their psychic tests I'm willing to bet that they are stronger/better trained/ect. They just might not have the scope, creativity or just plan random variety that humans have. 

There is also a chance that the armies that have powersets similiar to a particular generic set didn't get access to that generic set too (perhaps the points of the generic set are lower, or the powers are slightly different, but so close that the devs felt that giving the army both sets wouldn't work).

Also from what I've been reading the generic powers have their own lists. I'm assuming that the pricing will be separate from the points costs we see in the codexes (some codexes pay 5 for any of their powers some pay a whole range depending what they get. I can't see both being true for what the armies get).


----------



## Kelann08

Sethis said:


> ...only allowing Eldar access to 2 lores (regardless of what their future book might contain) while allowing Imperials access to double that is just a slap in the face.


Not really... :nono:


----------



## Synack

Did some maths earlier and unless I'm mistaken or reading this rumours wrong, genestealers, trygons, etc will have a max charge range of 24" (6" move + d6" run with possible reroll + 2d6" charge with possible single d6 reroll). Ravenours could be charging more for first turn charge. Seems crazy.


----------



## MrPete

You have to remember that the Eldar psychic stuff is a lot more protective than other psykers. You can ignore perils, you can trick your seers out with stuff to make fluffing a psychic test almost nonexistant etc. 

Compared with that, yes they may have fewer psychic selections to pick from but hey, its been fine up till now, and I really can't see any of the new psychic stuff being an automatic "I WIN" button ala Dwellers Below.

I think it'll work similar to how someone posted in this thread previously. I reckon, come the new 6th ed Eldar dex, they'll have some awesome psychic stuff in there that other races simply don't get access to. Then you can watch IG psykers blow themselves up while you safely cast powers and somewhat negate the downfalls.

HOWEVER....I do agree somewhat with people mentioning that the new rules seem to greatly benefit Space Marines. Obviously we're still in rumour stage, but one of my biggest fears was that a certain writer would get heavily involved in 6th, and the rules would end up being weighed massively in favor of codexes penned by said writer. 

Of course time will tell how it all pans out so im not crying about the skies falling just yet. But I must confess i'm eager to see just how each army slots into the new rules.


----------



## misfratz

Mokuren said:


> ...I like pre-measuring, and don't mind that it balances out with random charge lengths, but between pre-measuring, snapshotting psyflemen and casualties being removed from the front... Is it me or they're practically punishing CC from ever existing?...





Synack said:


> Did some maths earlier and unless I'm mistaken or reading this rumours wrong, genestealers, trygons, etc will have a max charge range of 24" (6" move + d6" run with possible reroll + 2d6" charge with possible single d6 reroll). Ravenours could be charging more for first turn charge. Seems crazy.


I think this is balance, GW-style, where they turn the dial on both close combat and shooting up to 11.

So, close combat specialists can now, potentially, charge ludicrous distances, and jump pack troops gain a bonus I10 attack, and where has that rumour about consolidating into combat gone to? - but you can now shoot at full range while moving with rapid fire, shoot heavy weapons while moving (at BS1) and snapshoot at chargers at BS1 (but not with templates).

It means that in any game turn more models will in general die, so for an absorbing and long game of cut and thrust one will need to have a larger army. This is a bit hard for those of us who are terribly slow at painting... but it isn't unbalanced per se.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Yeah, that's why I want more details on these new powers. I mean if Marines got access to a couple more powers so what? If they access to 20 more powers I would be confused. Of course Eldar are very good at casting in general and getting out or perils so maybe they're supposed to be more focused.

Have to agree though, seems like paper they would have access to the most. The plot thickens...


----------



## Sethis

35 Cards / 5 Lores = 7 Spells per Lore. Eldar get 14 new powers. Imperials get 28 new powers.

Even if they're all terrible (and they won't be, they'll be awesome) that's not exactly balanced or logical, fluffwise.

And really? "Eldar Perils less so it's all ok"? I'd trade that Ghosthelm out instantly for Sanctuary, Shrouding, Murderous Hurricane or any of a dozen other powers, thanks.


----------



## mcmuffin

Does that parade thing at the beginning look like a funeral to anyone else? Did the emperor kick the bucket?

MadCowCrazy: Edit to embed the video


----------



## Zion

More from Faeit212:



> Another WD Ed Pic. Cover Saves (Aegis Defense Line Goodness), and Much More
> 
> The 6th Edition information just comes too fast to get it all posted up. I am doing my best, and here is another large batch of information, which looks to be based off the White Dwarf. Stay tuned, there are a lot of posts lined up...
> 
> 
> Aegis Defense lines are one of those pieces that are looking sweet. The rumors have them at 50pts, 4+ cover save, and a 2+ if you go to ground..... Can you say guardsmen with orders?
> 
> As far as allies go, whoot! It seems 1 HQ + 1 Troop opens up 1 from other slots. Very exciting things coming. I just love the pics above.
> 
> 
> via paultwilson
> Further reading says that they have expanded the FOC so I would guess they've added allies and fortifications to that as an extra bit.
> 
> 
> More things though;
> 
> 
> The highest LD HQ is the Warlord and gets to roll on a Warlord Trait table, before the game you roll on one of 3 tables - Command, Personal or Strategic Traits, 2 examples are Inspiring Presence; Units within 12" use the Warlords LD. Another is Immovable Object allowing the Warlord to capture objectives solo.
> 
> 
> Flying Monstrous creatures can swoop 24" and perform a Vector Strike which is D3+1 hits at it's strength on a unit it flies over (in the example it says D3+2 I don't know if that's specific to Daemon princes as used in the boxed example or an error)
> 
> 
> The Fortifications have special rules too, the Bastion in the Bat rep had a quad gun which has the Interceptor rule which allows it to shoot at a unit as it arrives from reserve and the Skyfire rule which allows it to shoot flyers at normal BS rather than BS1.
> 
> 
> Monstrous creatures get the Smash ability which allows them to halve their attacks but strike at double strength.
> 
> 
> Bastions have AV14 all round and have a heavy bolter on each facing, they're automated and target the nearest enemy unit, can have a comms relay or a heavy weapon on the battlement.
> 
> 
> Tank traps are impassable terrain to all non skimmer vehicles, bikes can attempt to pass on a successful difficult terrain test, models behind it can get a 4+ cover save.
> 
> 
> Aegis defence lines are a 4+cover save but models behind it get +2 to cover save if they go to ground behind it.
> 
> 
> Mysterious forests are 5+ cover save, as soon as you enter you roll on the table to see what happens.
> 
> 
> Ruins are difficult terrain and a 4+ cover save.
> 
> 
> Wild undergrowth is a 5+ cover save and difficult terrain.
> 
> 
> Imperial Statuary is all imperial models within 2" of the terrain piece are fearless.
> 
> 
> Fuel Reserves 5+ cover save, each successful cover save roll a D6, on a 1 a barrel explodes doing a strength 3 hit on any models nearby.
> 
> 
> Impact craters are a 5+ cover save if the unit is within it's boundaries.
> 
> 
> Psykers can mix and match the new Psychic Disciplines, using the ones in their codex or by using the ones in the new rulebook, the example given is if space marine army had 2 librarians one could take codex powers and the other could take rulebook powers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do have some more snippets from random boxes and stuff...
> HQ's can challenge in single combat,
> 
> 
> Jump packs get to re-roll charge rolls, Jet packs get to "scoot" up to 2D6" away in the assault phase,
> 
> 
> Rage is +2 attacks on the charge
> 
> 
> Dreadnoughts have 3 Hull points, Soul grinder, Ghost Arks and Land raiders have 4,
> 
> 
> Land Speeders get Jink for a +5 cover save or 4+ if flat out,
> 
> 
> There's a pic of a Beastman Imperial Guardsman "A type of abhuman designated **** Sapien varatius in the rulebook's appendix,
> 
> 
> Snipers can select targets if they roll a 6 to hit,
> 
> 
> Gauss weapons remove a hull point on a hit of a 6, tesla works with the overwatch (needing 6's to hit at BS1) nicely (any sixes to hit are 2 hits),
> 
> 
> Some Psychic powers marked as number 6 on what I would assume is a random table (looking at a picture of the cards all fanned out, can only see the top card)
> 
> 
> Discipline of Biomancy - Haemorrage, warp charge 1, range 12". Haemorrage is a Focused witchfire power with a range of 12". The Target must pass a toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour saves or cover saves allowed. If the target is slain randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.
> 
> 
> Discipline of Divination - Scrier's Gaze, Warp charge 1. Scrier's Gaze is a Blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll 3 dice and choose the result you want when rolling for reserves, outflank or mysterious terrain.
> 
> 
> Discipline of Pyromancy - Molten Beam, warp charge 2, range 12". Molten beam is a Beam with the following profile - S8 AP1 Assault, melta
> 
> 
> Discipline of Telekinesis - Vortex of Doom, warp charge 2, range 12". Vortex of doom is a Witchfire power with the following profile - S10 AP1, Heavy1, Blast* *If the psychic test is failed centre the template on the psyker, it does not scatter.
> 
> 
> Discipline of Telepathy - Hallucination, warp charge 2, range 24". Hallucination is a Malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit)
> 
> 
> d6 1-2 - Unit is pinned, unless it automatically passes pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
> 
> 
> 3-4 - The unit cannot shoot, run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
> 
> 
> 5-6 - Every Model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on it's own unit, resolved at that models own strengths, but using the strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of the most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any)


Some old, mostly new. I'll add this to the first post when I get time.


----------



## SoulGazer

mcmuffin said:


> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/w...ew-blog&utm_campaign=VoxCaster-New-Blog-Posts
> 
> Does that parade thing at the beginning look like a funeral to anyone else? Did the emperor kick the bucket?


If the Emperor died the Imperium would do it's best to make sure no one knew about it. That's usually what they do about important stuff, just make sure no one knows.


----------



## Sethis

A 12" Jaws that hits like a Meltagun? Yes, I would much rather have Eldritch Storm, why thank you.

Alright, I'm going to stop posting about it now.

And from this we can infer:

1. You may cast a number of levels of your powers equal to your Mastery Rating. e.g. a Level 3 Mastery can cast 3x Warp Charge: 1 spells, or 1x Warp Charge: 3 spell. Alternatively, you may only cast powers with a Warp Charge equal to or less than your level, and we keep the current "1 power per person" thing.

2. They've brought in Fantasy Magic types - Blessing (Imbue), Malediction (Hex), Witchfire (Direct Damage, with subtypes depending on whether they are focused/non focused which may either grant the ability to target specific models or simply refer to blast/non-blast variants). "Beam" looks like a copy of Blood Lance/Jaws text, i.e. draw line, hit everything on it.

3. Due to the power ratings on the spells themselves, random generation looks to be out the window, otherwise you end up with spells you cannot cast.

4. No mention of casting values, which means no Winds of Magic type thing, just Ld tests as normal + any relevant new Psychic defences.


----------



## mcmuffin

Well, The Biomancy power and the Telepathy power are broken. Fuck this.


----------



## Garrak

> If the Emperor died the Imperium would do it's best to make sure no one knew about it. That's usually what they do about important stuff, just make sure no one knows.


If the Emperor dies it would be kinda obvious since that Warp gate in the Palace would be unsealed and deamons would pour through. Also the Astronomicon would suffer as well.


----------



## Sethis

mcmuffin said:


> Well, The Biomancy power and the Telepathy power are broken. Fuck this.


The biomancy one is crap tbh. 12" range, and needs consecutive 5s to kill Marines, or consecutive 4s to kill anything else. Unless your dice are red hot you're only going to net 2-3 kills at best, which is hardly OP.

But yes, the Telepathy one is insane. I don't know about you but I really enjoy having my 10 man Terminator squad attack itself with Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws. Oh, wait...


----------



## SilverTabby

mcmuffin said:


> Well, The Biomancy power and the Telepathy power are broken. Fuck this.


We still don't know how psychics work. There are a lot of words in there that mean nothing currently. calm down.


----------



## mcmuffin

Sethis said:


> The biomancy one is crap tbh. 12" range, and needs consecutive 5s to kill Marines, or consecutive 4s to kill anything else. Unless your dice are red hot you're only going to net 2-3 kills at best, which is hardly OP.
> 
> But yes, the Telepathy one is insane. I don't know about you but I really enjoy having my 10 man Terminator squad attack itself with Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws. Oh, wait...


Paladin walls are finished now

And thanks MCC, my youtube-embedding-fu is weak


----------



## Sethis

How does it kill Paladins? It only causes 1 wound and has to kill something before it can jump. Ignoring the whole "Grey Knights have awesome Psychic defence anyway" thing.


----------



## mcmuffin

Sethis said:


> How does it kill Paladins? It only causes 1 wound and has to kill something before it can jump. Ignoring the whole "Grey Knights have awesome Psychic defence anyway" thing.


Talking about the Telepathy one. Kill the dreads, hit the pallies with this, they can do nothing and can kill each other

lock them down for the whole game


----------



## Sethis

Oh right, never mind then. Yeah the Telepathy one just annihilates CC units. DCA that have a 66% chance of not attacking, or if they do attack, hit themselves? Sounds fun to me, but only because I'm the one casting it, and I can *finally* get some kind of revenge...


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> 35 Cards / 5 Lores = 7 Spells per Lore. Eldar get 14 new powers. Imperials get 28 new powers.
> 
> Even if they're all terrible (and they won't be, they'll be awesome) that's not exactly balanced or logical, fluffwise.
> 
> And really? "Eldar Perils less so it's all ok"? I'd trade that Ghosthelm out instantly for Sanctuary, Shrouding, Murderous Hurricane or any of a dozen other powers, thanks.


Ghost helm and Stones, they do get some control from that if you take it...of course 14 fewer options? Yikes. 7 might be okay but 14 seems bizzare. Guess I'll have to see this in play though.


----------



## Caliban

Karyudo-DS said:


> Ghost helm and Stones, they do get some control from that if you take it...of course 14 fewer options? Yikes. 7 might be okay but 14 seems bizzare. Guess I'll have to see this in play though.


if the mastery stats come into play then each discipline may have, say, 3 level 1 powers, 2 level 2 and 2 level 3 powers. guard would likely be level 1 so across 4 trees they can access 12 powers. eldar more likely are level 3 and as such their 2 trees grant 14 powers, and are more powerful; hence eldar would still benefit more despite access to fewer trees. complete speculation ofcourse!


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Well mastery like that would make much sense actually. Lots of this is speculation of course but thats at least logical instead of shorting Eldar 14 powers, I could see them having fewer, more powerful options at worst, but that many less would be weird.


----------



## Mokuren

Looking at these new powers, and knowing SPACE MARINES get them for free, I kind of miss my sisters' old 5+ save against all powers forever. Though admittedly they did say there's going to be some more psychic defense options, I just hope it doesn't lie in wargear and special rules updates. Special rules that we don't get.

I'm also getting rather hyped at the new allies rules, they sound so much better than the old ones. Waiting on the ally chart to see what fun combinations I can potentially field.

Still want to see how the new powers are bought with those old armies that need to buy theirs, hopefully there's going to be some sort of standard pricing instead of a "What, you want to be a Chaos sorcerer? Well *fuck you*".

As for the nerfing of CC units, while it's true that GW's sense of balance means that it's okay to make them get shot to oblivion before doing something if what they get in change is a potential 24"/32" assault range with pre-measuring allowed, this only really benefits SPACE MARINES, as always, because they can afford being shot at and survive lots of fire. Go tell the Nid player that will lose the vast majority of his troops to weapons with an AP much lower than their armour saves, or an Ork player.

Oh wait, they both know their codex sucks already. Nevermind.



Wax said:


> Because it's worth it to play 200 pts for a flying multi-melta that can, at best, kill one tank a turn?
> 
> Also, if you're playing Eldar why would you want to use anything besides fortune and doom? IG will not be "better" than Eldar at psy-stuffs.


The 200 pts flying multimelta that can at best kill one tank a turn might not seem that much of an investiment except it can also drop murderous troops and, which is really my biggest beef with it, _there is absolutely nothing I can do about it_.

Really, when all strategy and options go down the toilets and it all turns down to "Fuck you, we don't like your army so we didn't give you anti-air options, good luck only hitting on a 6", my only option is to resort to dumb luck when facing something that is a legitimate strategy that most other armies can (in theory) counter without having to run around with weapons with a range half its movement and hope for a very lucky shot.

Okay, okay, I might be overreacting, and we might get an update that says Exorcists get Skyfire or some other weapons we have access to get it as well, but seeing the degree of attention Sisters get rules-wise, I have my doubts.

Regarding Eldar having Doom and Fortune... Well, if IG psykers can get that sort of power for free, then the Primaris Psyker turned from an objectively terrible unit to one that has access to powers comparable to those of an Eldar farseer. And is twice as cheap, because only loser armies pay for powers.


----------



## mcmuffin

Allies seem unrestricted. I'll have an inquisitor with hammerhand and grenades and a unit of deathcult assassins please.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Wait, from the psychic table, does that mean Orks lose their Weirdboyz?


----------



## Mokuren

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Wait, from the psychic table, does that mean Orks lose their Weirdboyz?


I think it means Weirdboyz can only do their thing and never get any "generic" power.


----------



## Styro-J

Wait, where are you guys seeing specific powers? I must have skimmed too fast, because I missed that completely.


----------



## Zion

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Wait, from the psychic table, does that mean Orks lose their Weirdboyz?


No, they just don't get access to the new generic powers.



Styro-J said:


> Wait, where are you guys seeing specific powers? I must have skimmed too fast, because I missed that completely.


Here: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1242360&postcount=254

Look towards the bottom of the post.


----------



## boreas

My guess is that level 2 psykers might be rare. Hence, that telepathy power might not be all that common. It will still be a pain, though.


----------



## Obinhi

*RE: 20th update*

Hot fucking damn! I cant say I am too happy about the Orks being out of the psyker loop to start with but I am hopeing that they get some expanded powers for the weird boys!

Man I do have to say I was wrong about the rule book looking like a codex. My gut is discredited! It all looks bad assed but I think I have my eye on the gamer edition if the off base commander will let me.


----------



## Styro-J

Thanks for the pointing that out for me.

What's interesting is some of the terms like Beam, Vortex of Doom, Blessing, Malediction, and Witchfire. If these are different types of spells found in all schools then this does sound very much like Fantasy. But thank goodness none of those number 6 spells are anything like Dwellers or Purple Sun.


----------



## MidnightSun

There was a time a gamer was free from randomness and could make his own luck in the world. But our time is comin' to an end. Jervis, Alessio and Gav are united, they vow to destroy us. The High Lords from the four corners of the Imperium must stand together.

Midnight


----------



## Zion

MidnightSun said:


> There was a time a gamer was free from randomness and could make his own luck in the world. But our time is comin' to an end. Jervis, Alessio and Gav are united, they vow to destroy us. The High Lords from the four corners of the Imperium must stand together.
> 
> Midnight


I'm so glad we're giving this edition a chance before leaping to conclusions of it making the game completely broken. For all we know these rules will lead to an overall tighter game as new books are released that take out some of the nonsense that made the year or so of 5th so frustrating (you know, like they've been doing with 8th Edition WFB where all the new rulebooks are on the same rough power level and fit right into the new rules). 

Yup. I'm very glad that we aren't jumping to conclusions before seeing the way the new game plays and learning the ins and outs of it all. :grin:

In a less sarcastic-laced vein I'm keen on seeing the full rules and how they all fit together. I think one of the previous posters was probably dead on when they mentioned that it looks like both shooting and close combat are getting a boost to make both more effective. I don't mind the idea of a game where I have to remove a lot of models as long as I can force my opponent to do the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see the points level of things in 6th Edition drops to push those bigger model count armies in 6th like GW has done for 8th.

So yeah, I'll be playing this new edition. At least enough to know if I like it or not.


----------



## MidnightSun

Larger model counts? Removing lots of models?

I play MEQ because I don't like having to take my beautiful Chaos off of the table. I went to the trouble of lovingly painting it all, why the fuck do I want it in my case where no-one can see it?

I thought, however, that Force Cards might explain the whole 'Warp Focus' being really low casting values (although this might be psyker level). I'd like to see Force Cards come back.

It also grinds my chaotic gears that Chaos get fewer Disciplines than vanilla Marines. So we get older tech, fewer vehicles, AND more narrow psychic options?

Midnight


----------



## Zion

MidnightSun said:


> Larger model counts? Removing lots of models?
> 
> I play MEQ because I don't like having to take my beautiful Chaos off of the table. I went to the trouble of lovingly painting it all, why the fuck do I want it in my case where no-one can see it?
> 
> I thought, however, that Force Cards might explain the whole 'Warp Focus' being really low casting values (although this might be psyker level). I'd like to see Force Cards come back.
> 
> It also grinds my chaotic gears that Chaos get fewer Disciplines than vanilla Marines. So we get older tech, fewer vehicles, AND more narrow psychic options?
> 
> Midnight


My primary army is Sisters. To be able to kill Marines faster would me the happiest nerd ever for at least a week. Sure Marine players don't want to be killed faster, but for the non-Marine players seeing the Marines taken down a peg would be a bit nice. 40K is VERY heavily saturated by T4/3+ models and when they are the "obvious" choice for competitive players it's not good for the other armies. Who doesn't want to see more Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar/Necrons/Daemons around instead of metal boxes and large pauldrons?

If Chaos really is in the works or anywhere near completion your initial shortage may be explainable once we get that book. If Chaos is getting expanded options (say they go the route of the Warriors of Chaos from Fantasy and get some God specific powers and maybe an undivided list too) it'd easily explain why they aren't getting much NOW.


----------



## LukeValantine

See more necrons? Not sure if this holds up everywhere, but since the new codex hit 35% of all the gamers in my area play Necrons. Which means they currently outnumber CSM's locally. Almost the same with the DE.

Now Eldar, Tau, and Daemons would be nice.


----------



## Zion

LukeValantine said:


> See more necrons? Not sure if this holds up everywhere, but since the new codex hit 35% of all the gamers in my area play Necrons. Which means they currently outnumber CSM's locally. Almost the same with the DE.
> 
> Now Eldar, Tau, and Daemons would be nice.


I was speaking broadly as Necrons don't seem to an overall popular choice, but they might be doing better in some locations than others.


----------



## SilverTabby

The BRB is always Imperial-centric. The lores given there will be generic across the Imperial forces, and to a lesser degree the xenos races. 

Anyone who seriously believes there won't be lores specific to each xenos race *as well* needs to look at WHF.

There will be lists for Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and whatever other races come out. You can't seriously believe that the Eldar will only have generic lores, and less than Marines at that?

I seem to recall mention of massive FAQs for each codex on release of 40k? Well, perfect time to add lores there. There may even be a booklet given out like with the release of 6th? Ed fantasy, which gave basic updated lists for each army. GW don't presume everyone reads the internet, so things will have to be available in store too.

Be patient, have a little faith :wink:


----------



## LukeValantine

Faith is for the weak!


----------



## Zion

LukeValantine said:


> Faith is for the weak!


Tell that to everyone I've annoyed by making my 6++ Shield of Faith Invulnerable Saves when they REALLY needed something of mine dead. :grin:


----------



## Arcane

Kettu said:


> Here's the big question though.
> Is that their only mention?:spiteful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't they also say that all armies would get updated for 5th?
> That all armies would get at least their basic troops done in plastic?
> That all armies would get at least a few finecast options within a year?
> 
> I'm just saying...


 
This, forever this.

GW releasing mass PDF updates? They can't even get FAQs for existing codex done in a reasonable amount of time and where is the PDF for the SoB codex?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Zion said:


> I was speaking broadly as Necrons don't seem to an overall popular choice, but they might be doing better in some locations than others.


Bearing in mind necrons being such a recent codex there are bound to be a good deal more cron players recently, even if that's not the case everywhere


----------



## Zion

Bindi Baji said:


> Bearing in mind necrons being such a recent codex there are bound to be a good deal more cron players recently, even if that's not the case everywhere


And that is extremely true, sadly I see more Necron posts online but not as much as some of the other books get. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places or Necron players don't have as much to say, but I wouldn't be surprised if they got a few more players with the edition change.


----------



## Sethis

SilverTabby said:


> The BRB is always Imperial-centric. The lores given there will be generic across the Imperial forces, and to a lesser degree the xenos races.
> 
> Anyone who seriously believes there won't be lores specific to each xenos race *as well* needs to look at WHF.
> 
> There will be lists for Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and whatever other races come out. You can't seriously believe that the Eldar will only have generic lores, and less than Marines at that?


Oh, I'm sure that we'll get our own lores as well. The problem with that is twofold.

1. To continue the 8th WFB analogy, all the Lores in the Army Books are arguably worse than the BRB ones. Certainly the TK one is, and I'm not sure about the rest. That's because GW only realises it's mistakes with power levels after release, and never ever Erratas effectively. It's why BA get cheaper Devs and more expensive Hammernators. They realised that they were broken and instead of fixing the Marine codex, just fixed the follow on books. Ergo the most broken powers will be in the BRB.

2. We have Bonesingers, who mould and grow organic substances using the power of their mind. We have Warlocks who channel fire, lightning and god knows what else. Almost every member of our race has the ability to become a more powerful psyker than anything humanity can offer. Yet we do not get access to Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telekinesis. You cannot justify that, fluffwise.


----------



## SoulGazer

Zion said:


> And that is extremely true, sadly I see more Necron posts online but not as much as some of the other books get. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places or Necron players don't have as much to say, but I wouldn't be surprised if they got a few more players with the edition change.


They just don't appeal to everyone, which is fine with me. Even though they are getting a nice boost in 6th, so who knows, maybe they'll get even more players after a few months of people complaining about warriors wrecking vehicle armies in one round of shooting. Kinda like back when they first came out, lol. Then again, they weren't very popular even when they were OP.


----------



## Zion

Sethis said:


> 2. We have Bonesingers, who mould and grow organic substances using the power of their mind. We have Warlocks who channel fire, lightning and god knows what else. Almost every member of our race has the ability to become a more powerful psyker than anything humanity can offer. Yet we do not get access to Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telekinesis. You cannot justify that, fluffwise.


Bonesingers really need their own list of power to be honest. In some ways they're like Eldar Techmarines and could serve that role well too.

Warlocks don't just channel, they put their souls at risk to use the full extent of their powers ALL the time. That's why they give the kinds of effects they do without rolling. To suddenly say that someone who is basically running as a fullblown conduit of the Warp like that needs to test for some other new thing is silly (I'm pretty sure this is why Daemons don't have psychic powers like the other races too).

And yes the whole race has the ABILITY to become psykers but with how they approach living and training in things they don't use these abilites. They become the perfect artist, or dancer or swordsman or pilot and thus don't tap into their whole range of abilities to include their psychic ones outside of affecting their chosen craft at that time (improving reaction time for example when talking about the Swordsman). To say they should get all the powers just because they have the ABILITY is silly when you consider that they purposely prevent themselves from fully tapping in like that to their abilities (afterall, the more psychically active an Eldar is the more likely they are to attract the attention of Slaanesh and his Daemons, it's why Warlocks are at such a big risk doing what they do).


----------



## Arcane

Sethis said:


> 2. We have Bonesingers, who mould and grow organic substances using the power of their mind. We have Warlocks who channel fire, lightning and god knows what else. Almost every member of our race has the ability to become a more powerful psyker than anything humanity can offer. Yet we do not get access to Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telekinesis. You cannot justify that, fluffwise.


You are a human from the planet earth in the year 2012 CE, not a member of the army you play in a fantasy/sci-fi table top miniature game. I can't even tell what the ---- you are talking about! Who the ---- is "We"?

I hate it when people talk like this.


----------



## Zion

More stuff from Faeit212. This time a collab of info DIRECTLY out of the White Dwarf. These apparently are NOT rumors but CONFIRMATIONS. Be warned that this is all translated so it might be a clunky read:



> Sneak Peak on 6th Edition Rules from White Dwarf
> 
> We have some early information on rules and 6th edition in general taken out of the latest White Dwarf. This is a sneak peak into some of the stuff that everyone will start seeing tomorrow and over the next few days.
> 
> Some reports are conflicting on some of the details that we have heard throughout the internet, however these are collected directly out of the White Dwarf, from different articles, battle reports, army presentation, and an introductory article regarding the goals of 6th edition
> 
> the rulebook itself
> - full of fluff and coverage for things that werent coverec a lot in the past
> - the goal is to make the game more "cinematic"
> - end of rulebook is an overview of all weapons, powers , hull points, psi powers and more fluff (how to treat laswounds on the battlefield)
> 
> general rules
> - charge range (going into cc) is 2d6, jumppacks seem to enable you to REROLL it ( or it is a special rule thing, might be BA exclusive)
> - wound allocation to the closest miniatures in the unit. no info if wound groups are removed
> - i might have misunderstood it but : every model counts as an individual now(like in lord of the rings?) would explain the new wound allocation.
> - FOC has been EXPANDED for allies, this would mean that its still foc, not percentages
> - vehicle squadrons also improve shooting -> line of sight related
> - there will be many rules to bring "movie-like action scenes" to the tabletop
> 
> - "defensive fire" and "snap fire" are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things!
> - "defensive fire" "additional shooting phase" for assaulted units at bs 1. NO(!!!) mention of restrictions regarding WHAT WEAPONS can be fired. the usual restrictions should apply regarding flamethrowers (no usage if own model is in line of fire)
> 
> - "snap fire" shooting after movement and hitting on a 6, lascannons (and thus all HWs) can do it. land raiders can move 6" and shoot all weapons (1 normal, 1 via machine spirit and 2 snapshots with multi-melta and storm cannon) and a stunned cybot snap fired with a
> 
> multi-melta in one of the battle reports
> 
> hull points
> - cybots have 3 hull points like "battle tanks"
> - land raiders, soul grinders, ghost arc have 4
> 
> abilities
> - rage is renamed to berserk : +2 attacks in melee
> - smash for jumpers --> going into cc directly
> - monstrous creatures can halve their attacks but double the strength
> - flying monstrous creatures get their ability too, flying 24", ignoring all weapons but anti-air ones and hit enemies they flew over with (str + w3 + 1)
> - "GRENADE!" the unit mentioned is a sargeant throwing a grenade and destroying the enemy unit - no further info.
> - "evasive manouvers" for landspeeders : +5 cover save normal +4 when boosting and at max. velocity
> - forebarence : eldar runeprophets have it - usual bf for defensive fire
> - grey knights scriptors can get mastery grade 3
> - warlord traits can be passed to psykers (might be only related to GKs)
> - sharpshooters can choose what target they hit on a 6 (necron eliminators)
> - rapid fire weapons still shoot max distance after moving (possibly even the full amount of shots!)
> - tesla weapons get an additional hit when throwing a 6 on the to-hit throws
> - gauss weapons remove 1 hull point on a 6 at pen throws
> - tau battle suits can fall back 2d6 in the melee phase
> - apparently you can bodyguard all special characters (non independent ones on a +4)
> 
> equipment
> - psi matrix +4 save for psi resistance on 6"
> - power axe or powerfist needed to deny 2+ armor throws so they're either ap 1 or ap 2 or both ap 1 or ap 2
> 
> independent characters
> - character models can - under certain circumstances - pick their target individually
> - duelling like in warhammer
> - "there are many possibilities for unknown heroes to gain fame and honor" possible hints to even more things to make the game more "cinematic" ?
> - Warlords roll on a trait table (leadership, combat, tactics)
> 
> flyers :
> - always come in as reserves
> - some weapons have the "anti air" special rule
> - hard to hit when flying at max distance
> - fly on 2 "levels" far above ground (cant let passengers exit, but is only hittable by anti-air weaponry) and closer to the ground (easier to hit but can load out passengers)
> - destroying a flyer results in debris hitting the battlefield, damaging units
> 
> terrain and battlefield itself
> - mysterious forest like in warhammer - random properties when entering
> - ruins are difficult terrain, +4 cover save
> - thick bushes +5 cover save and difficult terrain
> - imperial statue provide fearless to imperial armies in 2" (sob, sm and ig)
> - fuel barrels etc +5 cover save, if it passes d6 --> 1 barrel explodes and does s3 to surrounding units
> - fortress of redemption --> 220 pts
> - craters +5 cover save
> - modifiers for the whole battlefield like : higher or lower gravity, poisonous atmospheres
> - usable ruins, artifacts that can turn the tide of battle
> 
> buildings :
> - go into the deployment zone
> - skyshield landing platform : arrival of reserves can be controlled
> - buildings can be upgraded - communications relais and anti-air weaponry
> - bastions have av 14
> - tank blockers are impassable for vehicles, dangerous terrain for bikes. provide +4 cover save
> - aegis defence lines provide a +4 cover save and +1 when going to ground
> 
> missions :
> - six "bloody encounters" with different goals and/or objectives : "explore and hold"
> -some objectives have special abilites (aiming systems, gravity wave generator) or are, for example mined (random properties?),
> - some missions make certain units scoring , fast attack units or even vehicles ("big guns never rest") but turn them into 1 "win-point" when killed/destroyed
> - three secondary objectives : kill the warlord , first blood, breakthrough (invading the enemies deployment zone), each is worth 1 "win-point"
> - rulebook section with scenarios to inspire the players to develop their own campains and missions
> 
> allies :
> - appearantly needed is 1 hq + 1 stan.
> 
> Psi :
> - the chart tells us if you can take the rulebooks psi-abilities or only the ones from your codex
> 
> 
> Extra Info:
> paultwilsons post about the abhuman is absolutely right. its part of the "armies in 6th edition" presentation. right next to it is chris peachs imperial army where he used imperial pistoliers parts etc from warhammer to create a pretty cool imperial guard army! look forward to those ones! feathers and old-school helmets!
> 
> the appendix of the rulebook covers abhumans and the like
> 
> This was the post from paulwilson
> There's a pic of a Beastman Imperial Guardsman "A type of abhuman designated **** Sapien varatius in the rulebook's appendix,


----------



## Sethis

Zion said:


> To say they should get all the powers just because they have the ABILITY is silly when you consider that they purposely prevent themselves from fully tapping in like that to their abilities


I'm not saying that every Eldar can functionally cast psychic powers - otherwise I'd be suggesting that every model in the army could cast a power.

What I'm saying is that any Eldar who puts his mind to it could easily master any of the disciplines mentioned in the rulebook. We even have examples of two of those disciplines in *existing rules* for models - Destructor for Warlocks and the rules that Bonesingers got back in 4th when they got a model.



> You are a human from the planet earth in the year 2012 CE, not a member of the army you play in a fantasy/sci-fi table top miniature game. I can't even tell what the ---- you are talking about! Who the ---- is "We"?
> 
> I hate it when people talk like this.


"We" = Eldar players.

I'm sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities by implying that there is a community group of people who play the same army. Mind you, being a sisters player, you probably don't know what that's like. :so_happy:

:laugh: (that was a joke, by the way)


----------



## ehafh

so the new book should be in GW stores on the 26th right? or am i confused about something haha.


----------



## Zion

ehafh said:


> so the new book should be in GW stores on the 26th right? or am i confused about something haha.


23rd it's supposed to open for preorder with the release being the weekend after that.


----------



## ehafh

Zion said:


> 23rd it's supposed to open for preorder with the release being the weekend after that.


cool thanks maybe i'll head up to my local GW store on the 23rd and lock one down for myself if they are taking pre orders.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Sethis said:


> "We" = Eldar players.
> 
> I'm sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities by implying that there is a community group of people who play the same army. Mind you, being a sisters player, you probably don't know what that's like. :so_happy:
> 
> :laugh: (that was a joke, by the way)


Oddly enough I think a couple of the posters in this thread play them. I sort of wanted to back in the day, looked interesting.

Either way I do think Eldar should certainly have access to more, but if the mastery is as suggested Eldar should get access to more abilities/more powerful ones. Though I haven't seen all the powers/requirements and what they get I'm just theorizing here. 

Only a few more weeks...


----------



## Arcane

lol  

Reminds me of back when I played D&D and people would start calling each other by their character's name or applying racial/personality traits to IRL themselves from their character.


----------



## TechPr1est

ha ha im the 300th poster

sooo what do i win?


----------



## Ghost-Bat

TechPr1est said:


> ha ha im the 300th poster
> 
> sooo what do i win?


Why, the reward for all good heretics, my friend. *Cue apperance of Khorne Bloodthirster.* 'DESPAAAAIIIIIR!'


----------



## GrimzagGorwazza

Arcane said:


> lol
> 
> Reminds me of back when I played D&D and people would start calling each other by their character's name or applying racial/personality traits to IRL themselves from their character.



It's a good roleplay session when people keep the verisimlitude up to this degree. 
"i'm going to the loo (roll a dice) shit a natural one, (roll again) dammit a natural twenty (piss on front of trousers without managing to unzip) "


I'm sad that orks get no psychic goodies, i don't want much but some destruction magic wouldn't be too much to ask would it?


----------



## Eleven

SoulGazer said:


> They just don't appeal to everyone, which is fine with me. Even though they are getting a nice boost in 6th, so who knows, maybe they'll get even more players after a few months of people complaining about warriors wrecking vehicle armies in one round of shooting. Kinda like back when they first came out, lol. Then again, they weren't very popular even when they were OP.


i'm surprised to hear people saying that the necrons are still uncommon. Of course, at my hobby store I have the rare distinction that space wolves and generic marines are uncommon.


----------



## TechPr1est

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I'm sad that orks get no psychic goodies, i don't want much but some destruction magic wouldn't be too much to ask would it?


 


i hear your call fellow greenskin:good:


----------



## MrPete

"power axe or powerfist needed to deny 2+ armor throws so they're either ap 1 or ap 2 or both ap 1 or ap 2"

Ok...so Terminators are getting nastier here. Especially against armies that don't have access to all the stuff that denies 2+ saves. Unless those armies get new options in new codexes, or get FAQd to have some AP1/2 stuff...terminators just became pretty difficult to shift unless you drown em in attacks and hope for some 1s eventually.

I personally wonder if rending is still here (and if it is im not searching back through 31 pages so apologies if its already been confirmed)


----------



## The Sturk

> - charge range (going into cc) is 2d6, jumppacks seem to enable you to REROLL it ( or it is a special rule thing, might be BA exclusive)


Somewhere...Tau are crying.



> hull points
> - cybots have 3 hull points like "battle tanks"
> - land raiders, soul grinders, ghost arc have 4


If a Ghost Ark has 4 Hull Points as does the Land Raider....how many will a Monolith have?



> - flying monstrous creatures get their ability too, flying 24", ignoring all weapons but anti-air ones and hit enemies they flew over with (str + w3 + 1)


Daemon Princes/Greater Daemons are about to become very usedful.



> - sharpshooters can choose what target they hit on a 6 (necron eliminators)


I fail to see how this makes snipers "Necron Eliminators." If it has to do with Crypteks and Lords, they are almost no different than an Exarch or a SM Sargent. And I doubt it will remove their RP rolls so...




> - tesla weapons get an additional hit when throwing a 6 on the to-hit throws


 They already do that, except that it 2 additional hits. Hopefully this isn't a nerf.



> - gauss weapons remove 1 hull point on a 6 at pen throws


Always useful. This puts Necrons somewhere in between 4th and 5th edition in terms of Vehicle Killing.



> - power axe or powerfist needed to deny 2+ armor throws so they're either ap 1 or ap 2 or both ap 1 or ap 2


So armies with these are screwed against termies in CC?



> - fly on 2 "levels" far above ground (cant let passengers exit, but is only hittable by anti-air weaponry) and closer to the ground (easier to hit but can load out passengers)


This is about to make the new fliers very dangerous if they can shoot down at targets at the higher level.

I admit that a lot of these points deal with my army directly, but these rules sound like they will take a while to get used to.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TechPr1est said:


> ha ha im the 300th poster
> 
> sooo what do i win?


The same thing all Witches, Heretics and Mutants get!


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Berzerker speacial rule has me frothing to unleash my Copper Clad Death Company




























OH HELLLLL YEAH Boyz.:spiteful:


----------



## Kelann08

Zion said:


> Who doesn't want to see more Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar/Necrons/Daemons around instead of metal boxes and large pauldrons?


I'd love to see less marines if only because I hate playing marines vs. marines! Hence the Necron work. 



The Sturk said:


> I fail to see how this makes snipers "Necron Eliminators." If it has to do with Crypteks and Lords, they are almost no different than an Exarch or a SM Sargent. And I doubt it will remove their RP rolls so...


Neither are remotely close to a sergeant. They may lead groups of troops but that's where the similarity ends. Several of the Harbinger skills are on part with a full blown HQ choice and Lords can bring Mindshackle Scarabs. Lords and Crypteks are very, very powerful. I've got a guy in my escalation league who is going to bring a deathstar of four Lords and three Crypteks - I'll bring two units of snipers just to combat that group alone.


----------



## CattleBruiser

Sorry if this has already been covered, but does anyone know when the 6th ed starter set is going to be released? i don't want to have to pay 75 bucks for a rulebook when for the same price i could get a rulebook + models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rage/Berserker has me a bit intrigued I must say, Repentia and Penitent Engines are my favourite models in the game and this could be really interesting for them.

Problem is still if you have control of your units or not, +2 attacks on the charge sounds good but when will you ever get the charge vs a good player if your units are forced to run towards the closest?

I hope there are some more changes to Rage/Berserker that allows you a bit more control of them. Then again allot of things seems to be focusing on random events.




CattleBruiser said:


> Sorry if this has already been covered, but does anyone know when the 6th ed starter set is going to be released? i don't want to have to pay 75 bucks for a rulebook when for the same price i could get a rulebook + models.


September, with the launch of the Dark Angels codex.


----------



## The Sturk

Kelann08 said:


> Neither are remotely close to a sergeant. They may lead groups of troops but that's where the similarity ends. Several of the Harbinger skills are on part with a full blown HQ choice and Lords can bring Mindshackle Scarabs. Lords and Crypteks are very, very powerful. I've got a guy in my escalation league who is going to bring a deathstar of four Lords and three Crypteks - I'll bring two units of snipers just to combat that group alone.


I realize that Lords and Crypteks are much, much more powerful than sergeants. The point I was making is that other armies have similar things that a player would target on a roll of a 6. Maybe a better comparison would be comparing Crypteks/Lords to Nobz and Pallys, both with inter-mixing models (painboys, mek-boys, apothicaries, etc.).


----------



## Karyudo-DS

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I'm sad that orks get no psychic goodies, i don't want much but some destruction magic wouldn't be too much to ask would it?


I was thinking this too but their psyker abilities are to unique and hilarious for them to use other stuff...also the other stuff works to gud and not orky nuf.



MadCowCrazy said:


> September, with the launch of the Dark Angels codex.


Wait Wuuuuuuut? Thought we were getting Chaos, or is that earlier? I'd rather have DA, though a friend has Chaos so I want both of these books out...should be hilarious to figure out our battles.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Karyudo-DS said:


> Wait Wuuuuuuut? Thought we were getting Chaos, or is that earlier? I'd rather have DA, though a friend has Chaos so I want both of these books out...should be hilarious to figure out our battles.


CSM is late July if the rumours are true.


----------



## Kelann08

The Sturk said:


> I realize that Lords and Crypteks are much, much more powerful than sergeants. The point I was making is that other armies have similar things that a player would target on a roll of a 6. Maybe a better comparison would be comparing Crypteks/Lords to Nobz and Pallys, both with inter-mixing models (painboys, mek-boys, apothicaries, etc.).


Word. :good:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> CSM is late July if the rumours are true.


Well I believe all rumors. (or can be hopeful at least) :grin:


----------



## Kelann08

Karyudo-DS said:


> Well I believe all rumors. (or can be hopeful at least) :grin:


I sure as hell do. My memory is too short to be disappointed when they prove wrong, so its easier to just believe all of them and forget when the truth comes out.


----------



## CattleBruiser

wait, is the CSM then DA confirmed, or is it still rumours?


----------



## notsoevil

Still damned excited about this new ruleset. As someone who's never had the chance to really play 5th edition, it's all new to me anyway!

And once the CSM codex comes out, I'll get to go back to work on The Host of Worms!


----------



## Kelann08

CattleBruiser said:


> wait, is the CSM then DA confirmed, or is it still rumours?


Still a rumor. Nothing about starter sets confirmed that I've seen.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Yeah, still just logical conjecture.


----------



## Kelann08

Karyudo-DS said:


> Yeah, still just logical conjecture.


Since nothing else has been mentioned regarding starter set contents in a very long time, it stands to reason that this "rumor" is shifting perilously close to "assumed". I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be those two armies. Not much conflict thus far.


----------



## Doelago

So the below basically confirms allies as being in? 










Makes me a happy IG + GK player.


----------



## Kelann08

A few other confirmations I don't recall seeing anywhere else.

FNP is officially 5+, not 4+.
Vector Strike is there (d3+1 hits on a flyover by a monstrous creature).
Interceptor (shoot at reserves as they enter) and Skyfire (shoot at flyers with normal BS).
If my math is right, it also seems as though a bastion costs a measly ~125 points with a quad gun.
The aegis defense line is 85 points with weapon.


----------



## HOBO

I stay away from Rumours, but seeing that post above with the 2 Allied Armies has me thinking that there will be very few non-allied armylists been played. Some will find it almost a no-brainer fielding, well say a vanilla SM force with GK Allies, or any other competitive fill-in-the-weaknesses-of-my-army combo.

...unless there are restrictions etc that makes it only possible under certain circumstances/etc.


----------



## darknightdrako

Can't wait to see what other factions can ally with Chaos Marines. Just judging by that pic it seems that the 6th ed rules would cater more for the Imperium.


----------



## Bindi Baji

HOBO said:


> ...unless there are restrictions etc that makes it only possible under certain circumstances/etc.


Sounds as if there will be a good few restrictions and most allies will be basic troops


----------



## bitsandkits

I like the idea of allies, its a very normal part of warfare to have allies or mercs in a force, no reason to think its should be any different in 38000 years time, granted it may break the game in some places, but it does allow more people more flexibility and use more of there model collection or expand and buy that little unit they like form another army and get to use it so its not sat on a shelf. I think this is a move which says that GW is more about fun and cinematic battles than fair/competitive ones. And as the vast majority of players are casual fun loving players i think its a good move,plus how cool is it going to be for the army list people? its like GW have just doubled there fun! 
May also help prevent codex creep because potentially a new codex means new allies for other armies which throws up loads more potential lists.

Not to mention it will line GWs pockets for the next few years as people take that stagnant army of the shelf blow off the dust and go out and buy a unit or two from another army to reinvigorate the fighting force.



Bindi Baji said:


> Sounds as if there will be a good few restrictions and most allies will be basic troops


well the allies listed in those pages of white dwarf are from all over the codexs FOC.


----------



## HOBO

Bindi Baji said:


> Sounds as if there will be a good few restrictions and most allies will be basic troops


Time will tell I guess.

The IG element of that list is crap for the most part, so the GK units *are *filling in the weaknesses of that particular armylist:laugh:.


----------



## Ghost-Bat

HOBO said:


> The IG element of that list is crap for the most part, so the GK units *are *filling in the weaknesses of that particular armylist:laugh:.


Zing!


----------



## maddermax

Bindi Baji said:


> Sounds as if there will be a good few restrictions and most allies will be basic troops


You need one troops and one HQ, then you can get up to one of each other type of slot. So you could take a unit of, say, a Tac squad and Librarian as allies, then you could get a land raider, bike squad and terminators to go along with them.


----------



## SilverTabby

Heh. My IG allies don't fill in things my Sisters are missing. I don't take the most powerful anti-tank guns. I take bodies to sacrifice, autocannons on cold ones all round and pick things I can make look good as a dino-tank. I have a hydra flak tank Carnosaur, and several dragons waiting to become Vendettas. I have a squad of mounted Sisters, so even though they aren't the best I'll have Rough Riders. 

Wheeeee! Keen!


----------



## HOBO

maddermax said:


> You need one troops and one HQ, then you can get up to one of each other type of slot. So you could take a unit of, say, a Tac squad and Librarian as allies, then you could get a land raider, bike squad and terminators to go along with them.


Ahhh, so not many restrictions afterall, well not FOC - focussed ones anyway.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Time to add a proper blood thirster to my Khorne army


----------



## Eleven

darknightdrako said:


> Can't wait to see what other factions can ally with Chaos Marines. Just judging by that pic it seems that the 6th ed rules would cater more for the Imperium.


Well, I think 99% of the 40k gamers knew in there heart that this would favor the imperium and fuck over everyone else the moment they heard the word, 'allies.' It's pretty much a no brainer.

I'm gonna guess that tournaments will still have no allies, but every time I face space marines in a for fun game now they will have a pretty big advantage.

But like I said in earlier posts, at least I can field blood angels with my necrons! Oh wait, I hate the imperium why would I ever want to do that?

From the beggining this sounded like a ploy to force players that didn't play space marines to buy space marines to remain competitive.

At least allies for chaos make sense. I'll be adding traitor guard and daemons for sure.


----------



## HOBO

SilverTabby said:


> Wheeeee! Keen!


Me too...I often take my IG Armoured Battlegroup (can be standard Mech or Hybrid IG), and my Death Wing/Drop Podding vanilla SM armies in Apoc games, so could in theory field elements of each in standard 40K games.

Mind you I only play within a gaming group and with invited outsiders, so this kind of scenario isn't rare or considered OP/unbalanced.

There's many who will consider it just that I think (know in fact).


----------



## HOBO

> Eleven;1242804]From the beggining this sounded like a ploy to force players that didn't play space marines to buy space marines to remain competitive.


Possibly not just SM's, but I get your drift:wink: GW is after our Dosh afterall, and as much as possible. This Allies thingy is a no-brainer to their way of thinking.



> At least allies for chaos make sense. I'll be adding traitor guard and daemons for sure.


One of my Sons and several regular opponents have already started planning exactly what you are planning, and some already have these exact collections so they're set already:victory:


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Hmm does this mean I could add a lot of Imperial Guard battle tanks to my World Eaters army?


----------



## Eleven

mcmuffin said:


> Well, The Biomancy power and the Telepathy power are broken. Fuck this.


It's the telepathy and the divination ones that are off the chain....

Too bad I'll never get to use the divination since chaos and eldar can't predict the future.

Since chaos has no reserves mechanics...it would have been nice. But no.


----------



## Eleven

Caliban said:


> if the mastery stats come into play then each discipline may have, say, 3 level 1 powers, 2 level 2 and 2 level 3 powers. guard would likely be level 1 so across 4 trees they can access 12 powers. eldar more likely are level 3 and as such their 2 trees grant 14 powers, and are more powerful; hence eldar would still benefit more despite access to fewer trees. complete speculation ofcourse!


this is what i'm thinking. It saves the whole system imo. I'm not worried about it at all, but i'm still mad that I can't divine because those kinds of powers are what appeals to me.

I have to cross my fingers that daemon prince, sorcerer, and farseer are all level 3 psykers and that librarian will only be level 2.


I have a stupid feeling though that both daemon prince and sorcerer will be level 2.


----------



## Styro-J

Then I assume your Chaos, since Eldar get to divine like a boss.


----------



## Eleven

Styro-J said:


> Then I assume your Chaos, since Eldar get to divine like a boss.


if the one divination power i've seen is any precedence then I suspect that the rest of the divination chart will exceed doom guide and fortune.


----------



## misfratz

Words_of_Truth said:


> Hmm does this mean I could add a lot of Imperial Guard battle tanks to my World Eaters army?


Yes, it sounds like you could add something like this:
HQ - Company Command Squad
Troops - Veterans in chimera
Heavy Support - 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
Fast Attack - 3 Hellhounds

I'd love to see more traitor guard.


----------



## Styro-J

I'm going to try a mix my first couple games. 4 games with 2 Farseers. Every game will have one with Eldar powers (should still be available) and the other one will switch between Divination and Telepathy. But I think I'll get more use out of Telepathy, since Eldar can already tinker with reserves a bit with Autarchs.


----------



## Sethis

Styro-J said:


> I'm going to try a mix my first couple games. 4 games with 2 Farseers. Every game will have one with Eldar powers (should still be available) and the other one will switch between Divination and Telepathy. But I think I'll get more use out of Telepathy, since Eldar can already tinker with reserves a bit with Autarchs.


But not if you're taking two Farseers... 

Basically it looks like playing competitively is going to require ignoring whole tracts of the rulebook, which is always a nice indication of a balanced ruleset.

All the casual players can have fun though.


----------



## maddermax

Sethis said:


> But not if you're taking two Farseers...
> 
> Basically it looks like playing competitively is going to require ignoring whole tracts of the rulebook, which is always a nice indication of a balanced ruleset.
> 
> All the casual players can have fun though.


Yeah, with the drive towards "cinematic" games, mysterious forests, high powered magic, random charge lengths and huge numbers of intricate special rules layered through the main rules, it's a sign they're bringing the same changes they made to 8th ed fantasy to 40k. A trend towards casual gaming and randomness and big outcomes. While it won't be as large a change as it was for 8th, which had always been a more rigid strategy game than 40k, it'll probably still be a big enough change to cause a bit of a higher overturn of players for a while, same as for Fantasy, as more casual gamers come in, and some of the old guard look elsewhere.

Anyway, we'll see, only a week and a half to go.


----------



## SilverTabby

I've never been anything but a casual gamer. My one foray in tourneys I came 39th out of 39, and deliberately aimed for that after the first game against a w*nker. Maybe one time I'll do a tournament in this edition, just to renew my hatred of them :wink:


----------



## Eleven

Styro-J said:


> Then I assume your Chaos, since Eldar get to divine like a boss.


Oh you're right! I'm tripping!


----------



## Zion

Sethis said:


> But not if you're taking two Farseers...
> 
> Basically it looks like playing competitively is going to require ignoring whole tracts of the rulebook, which is always a nice indication of a balanced ruleset.
> 
> All the casual players can have fun though.


You can play competetively without ignoring huge portions of the rules. We hold the occasional Fantasy Tournament and the games are fun, close and the only rules we ignore involve the magic terrain. But that's just how the group at my FLGS rolls.



maddermax said:


> Yeah, with the drive towards "cinematic" games, mysterious forests, high powered magic, random charge lengths and huge numbers of intricate special rules layered through the main rules, it's a sign they're bringing the same changes they made to 8th ed fantasy to 40k. A trend towards casual gaming and randomness and big outcomes. While it won't be as large a change as it was for 8th, which had always been a more rigid strategy game than 40k, it'll probably still be a big enough change to cause a bit of a higher overturn of players for a while, same as for Fantasy, as more casual gamers come in, and some of the old guard look elsewhere.
> 
> Anyway, we'll see, only a week and a half to go.


Cinematic could just be a push towards more exciting games that you'll be talking about for weeks to come. More exciting games that are closer between the players and require more tactics than just a reliance on uber units and more guns than everyone else.

If the "mysterious" terrain is a massive chart that takes several pages to explain and is filled with mostly terrain that can kill you by using it I won't see it getting much use, but if it has more bonuses than the Fantasy terrain does it might be worth using.

I debate the high-powered psyker powers, but only because we don't know what the full rules for psychic powers will be. I don't think we're moving to dice pools and casting/dispelling, but with the rumored save vs psychic powers that models are said to be getting and the potential for more ways to shut down enemy psykers (beyond killing them, psychic hoods, runes of warding, ways to lower the enemy's leadership values and the Aegis rules of Grey Knights I mean) means that the stronger powers might just be a way to make the Psykers more valid in the edition.

Random charge lengths have an average of 7" which means that charges will be more commonly happening from a little further away than before, and more models can get in from further away when you're dealing with large units who have to go around something to make the charge. I'm not saying that there are going to be a lot of 12" charges but the chance of getting into combat from that far away will make people reconsider how they move and where they place things more carefully in the future. 

We already have a lot of special rules now, and adding in more consistent and common special rules is actually a good thing as it brings more options and new levels of effectiveness to various units. Call me an optimist but I think that 6th edition will be a tighter edition than 5th is in terms of rules.

I don't play in an area that supports comp (in fact everyone in our local group would probably quit if comp occured) so the same rules we casually with are the same competitive rules we play with too and I'm willing to be there are a lot of places that do the same thing, so I don't see it breaking things for too many people. The ultra-serious tournament players might be a little upset, but when are they not upset? Honestly I see so many complaints from them in general whenever *any* changes are mentioned that I end up writing them off completely. 

As for big outcomes, I've seen it from both being the one who swept and doing the sweeping.....I don't really know how it's going to be bigger than the way we can murder whole units by sweeping them in combat now. 

Either way I assume there will be a high overturn no matter what happens. Some people will leave because they'll see the new edition as ruining it forever, others will leave because the new edition is too hard/soft/complicated/simple/ect. You can't please everyone and any time a game changes there are chances that are someone will be upset.



SilverTabby said:


> I've never been anything but a casual gamer. My one foray in tourneys I came 39th out of 39, and deliberately aimed for that after the first game against a w*nker. Maybe one time I'll do a tournament in this edition, just to renew my hatred of them :wink:


I like tournaments personally (at least at my FLGS) because they are fun, close games with everyone trying their best. Sure someone tries to ruin it with cheese (Venomspam) but I've yet to see a cheese list take better than 3rd locally and usually the more solid players are the ones who win.


----------



## Eleven

I wonder if I will be able to do this.

Necrons allied with necrons.

Now I have 4 fast attack slots and 4 heavy support slots for even more scarabs and anni barges?

Now I also have 3 command barges and can put in a total of 15 crypteks?

Now that I think about it, It would be just plain stupid if you couldn't ally with your own race because then you would just be giving free hvy support elite and fast attack slots to people that choose to ally thus forcing alliances with other races every game.

Say hello to my 3 solar pulses I guess.

Maybe with snipers being able to choose a target on a 6 I'll even wheel out the old deathmarks.


----------



## CattleBruiser

I think they'll have you share a force org chart, like with witch hunters and daemon hunters, so if you take the 1 HQ 1 troop, 1 FA, 1 elite, and 1 heavy of your allied army then you can only take 1 hq, 5 troops, 2 FA, 2 elites, and 2 heavies of your main army.


----------



## SilverTabby

Hmmm. If there isn't a rule against it, I'd say that they at least have to be in a different colour scheme if you want to use that against me :wink:

I'd hope they'd've thought of that though, and allies can only be from *another* codex...


----------



## misfratz

Eleven said:


> I wonder if I will be able to do this.
> 
> Necrons allied with necrons.
> 
> Now I have 4 fast attack slots and 4 heavy support slots for even more scarabs and anni barges?


I was thinking about this, and wondering whether the FOC slots that you could use for allies were additional to the ones for your own army, or came out of the main chart.

So it could be that you can have an allied Fast Attack choice, but if you do take one you can only have two Fast Attack choices from your main army.

The other point about this is that if it works this second way, it would also stop you from taking allies from more than one other army below 2000 points, as you'd have used up all your HQ slots (one for your main army and one for your first allied army).

However, this is the sort of detail where we just have to read the exact wording of the rules to find out which way they've done it.


----------



## SGMAlice

I can see them requiring it to be a shared FoC rather than additional slots. Also requiring 1 HQ from each army will limit it to one ally by default in that case, which is probably the smart move.

Alice


----------



## Mokuren

misfratz said:


> I was thinking about this, and wondering whether the FOC slots that you could use for allies were additional to the ones for your own army, or came out of the main chart.


I am pretty sure allies have to be fit within your own FOC and don't just add extra bonus slots, you just have a limit on how many you can field, which is much lower than your main army, but I'm pretty sure that if you take 1 HQ choice from your allies you can't take 2 from your main army, as you'd end up with 3, and that won't do. Unless you play at more than 2000 points, in which case the FOC slots should double.

I mean seriously, we all know GW is dumb and makes stupid broken rules all the time, but give them a break, they can't be _that_ stupid!

Mostly because it wouldn't be to the sole benefit of SPACE MARINES.



Zion said:


> Cinematic could just be a push towards more exciting games that you'll be talking about for weeks to come. More exciting games that are closer between the players and require more tactics than just a reliance on uber units and more guns than everyone else.


I am quite intrigue at what they mean by "cinematic", if it makes it possible to flip the tide of a battle despite being against a completely broken codex and prevents you from situations where "Okay I shot your everything in turn 1 you can concede there's no way you can win now" is no longer an option I'll be a happy player.

All considered, there's more rumours that get me excited over those that make me worried.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Was glad to see the guys at headquarters didn't do something stupid like give my heretic hunting sisters psychic powers. The only good psycher is... the Emperor.

Just being in the list of armies in the book is a nice reassurance as well- especially with the recent finecast release list containing no sisters models. . . and no recent news.


----------



## Eleven

Mokuren said:


> I mean seriously, we all know GW is dumb and makes stupid broken rules all the time, but give them a break, they can't be _that_ stupid!
> 
> Mostly because it wouldn't be to the sole benefit of SPACE MARINES


The only thing I trust is that the rules will be for the sole benefit of space marines.




Purge the Heretic said:


> Just being in the list of armies in the book is a nice reassurance as well- especially with the recent finecast release list containing no sisters models. . . and no recent news.


Like all good heretics, I've been hoping that GWS would extinguish the light of the sisters of battle for some time. But only after I'm able to sell the ones that I inherited from my buddy, haha.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Cinematic could just be a push towards more exciting games that you'll be talking about for weeks to come. More exciting games that are closer between the players and require more tactics than just a reliance on uber units and more guns than everyone else.


Yeah the more I look at some of these rules the more I want to try this stuff. Allies sound potentially bad but at the same time could combat the power creep and give you the option to buy unusual fun stuff and slowly build other armies if you want. Of course I don't want to buy a storm raven, paint it BA, and then see one in the DA codex a week later after I painted it up... Guess im waiting for any crazy purchases Though I still have 3rd ed Death Company...

I am hoping some of these entirely crazy seeming rumors do help even out the units. I like my uber units but there are plenty of codex options that go unused most of the time. I rarely ever used DA psykers for instance, 3 powers that are okay, psyker defense and taking an HQ slot away? 

I don't see deployable defenses as bad at all even if cheap I can mostly ignore a bastion. It might be a poor man's LR but it's not moving so I don't care unless it has some big guns...if it does that will be a remembered game for sure so mission accomplished I guess. Plus it gives me hope GW will make some structures for non-imperials.

Of course any of it could be ignored. I mosty just play with a few friends 1-2 times a week. If we don't want allies, defenses, new psyker powers...we don't have to use them. Probably will though, I like combining my armies in apoc games and already have the bastions/aegis stuff anyway so I'm ready to go.


----------



## Cougar

not overly impressed that the Spacemarines and Imperial Guard get more shared psychics that eldar  ah well so much for being the most psychic race .lol


----------



## Obinhi

I would be willing to bet that the eldar are better able to use stronger powers then us humans, and I would guess that we dont get fortune and guide. I cannot see them taking that from you, they are bread and butter for the space elves!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I got the new WD today, feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it. Going to go through it now and see what's up


----------



## SoulGazer

MadCowCrazy said:


> I got the new WD today, feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it. Going to go through it now and see what's up


I've got a few:

Is there any indication of what sort of alliances will be possible apart from what's in the battle reports? (I need me some Blood Angel/Necron brofisting :laugh

Over on Dakka, someone said there was an example(probably in the battle reports, but the grammar was terrible so I can't be sure) of daemons causing Fear. If you can find that, can you tell if they actually get a new rule or is it just a fluff thing for the battle report?

Can you clarify Hull Points? Are vehicles wrecked once they lose them all or do you still have to destroy them via the normal damage chart after all the hull points are gone?


----------



## Sethis

Zion said:


> You can play competetively without ignoring huge portions of the rules.


That depends on the rules and how they interact with each other. Competitive players dislike effects that are randomly generated and only affect one player (mysterious terrain), dislike auto-include options (at least 1 terrain piece) and dislike overpowered units or abilities that have no readily available counter (Hallucination). I also don't see many people appreciating 90% of their opponents being Imperial Guard players with Coteaz, DCA and Paladins (the whole point of having seperate army lists is that each army has strengths and weaknesses, taking allies largely negates this).



Zion said:


> We hold the occasional Fantasy Tournament and the games are fun, close and the only rules we ignore involve the magic terrain. But that's just how the group at my FLGS rolls.


Fantasy is reasonably balanced, mainly because every army can take a level 4, so it comes down to luck who gets the most spells off before miscasting themselves to death. That is fair (but not really fun, to me) because everyone has a chance. Non-Psyker armies look to be a little screwed so far.



Zion said:


> Cinematic could just be a push towards more exciting games that you'll be talking about for weeks to come. More exciting games that are closer between the players and require more tactics than just a reliance on uber units and more guns than everyone else.


Or it could mean ideas like "Hurh hurh hurh, let's make terrain that explodes and kills people, cos that sounds funny, hurh hurh" despite the fact that it hurts Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Guard, Daemons, Orks and Sisters a lot more than it hurts Space Marines and is therefore inherently unfair. It could mean "Hurh hurh, let's force HQ units to fight each other in combats like a duel, hurh hurh" despite the fact that a lot of races have characters who do not want to be anywhere near another character (Farseers, Ethereals, Sang Priests, IG Officers et al).

Decisions like that *remove* tactical choice, not add to it, because now I can't strategically plan my assault move to deliberately avoid engaging that Power Klaw Warboss with my Librarian. I have to fight him and die (or refuse the challenge and presumably not fight and not be able to add my Ld to the unit I am in).

Whenever GW says "We're adding something to make the game more fun!!!" then I cringe a little bit inside, because I know it's going to be another gimmick that just destabilises the game more than it is already. And probably revolves around power armour.



Zion said:


> Random charge lengths have an average of 7" which means that charges will be more commonly happening from a little further away than before, and more models can get in from further away when you're dealing with large units who have to go around something to make the charge. I'm not saying that there are going to be a lot of 12" charges but the chance of getting into combat from that far away will make people reconsider how they move and where they place things more carefully in the future.


The question is _what was wrong with assault moves in the first place?_ As far as I can tell, nothing. Difficult and Dangerous Terrain was a pain in the ass, but apart from that, I didn't see a problem with a static 6". It meant I could gauge distances and make a binary decision - am I in, or am I not? Now that has been replaced with "Am I within 2-12"?" which is far less of a tactical decision. It's just guesswork. Even if you're within 4" of the enemy you can still fuck it up and die, just on the basis of a single failed dice roll. Your tactics were perfect, you'd played the best you could, but when it comes to rolling a single dice, you fluffed it. Tell me how that makes you feel good. In WFB it's not quite so important, because charging is just +1 Combat res and because effective firepower is rare (i.e. your 40 man unit is not going to die in a single round of shooting). Not so in 40k. 



Zion said:


> The ultra-serious tournament players might be a little upset, but when are they not upset? Honestly I see so many complaints from them in general whenever *any* changes are mentioned that I end up writing them off completely.


Really? From where I stand, it's the pitiful cries of "Cheese" and "That's so OP" that I have to block out when I table yet another person who thought 4 Tactical Squads and 3 Whirlwinds made a good army. I guess it's a matter of your point of view, isn't it? I'm not even an ultra-serious player. I just like games where the rules are balanced, make internal sense, and more or less everyone has an equal chance to win provided they don't make stupid choices in list design or tactics. I guess I'm a total nutjob. :scare:


----------



## Alsojames

So I just re-read the whole OP and I have to say....

STILL NO TAU CODEX?

Fuck it, I'm going back to my Guard.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> I got the new WD today, feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it. Going to go through it now and see what's up


I'm sure there is plenty more that you will need to tell us that we don't know. please feel free to clarify it all.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it.


Which armies can Squats ally with? :angel:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

*Rulebook*: £45, €60, 450dkr, 560skr, 560nkr, 450rmb, 225zl
*
Battlefield Objectives:* The 12 six-sided Munitorum Battlefield Objectives are not dice, but rather a means of representing the location and significance of the myriad Primary and Secondary Mission Objectives used in the Eternal War scenarios. In addition, they can be used to denote the nature of a Mysterious Objective once revealed.

*Vehicle Markers:* The Munitorum Vehicle Markers are a quick and effective means of determining what damage a vehicle suffers when an attack has penetrated its armour, and serve as a visual reminder of any ongoing vehicle status effects. The set includes four AP 3 damage dice, two AP 2 Damage Dice, 2 AP 1 Damage Dice, two Hull Point counters and two Vehicle Status markers.

*Psyhic Power Cards*
Biomancy
Smite Range 12" - is a *Witchfire*
Iron Arm -something about Toughness
Enfeeble within 24" - suffers a -1, treats all terrain
Endurance within 24" - gains the Fe (Feel no Pain?), special rule
Life Leech Range 12" - If Life Leech, immediately, to his starting
Warp Speed - Attacks (Roll
6. Haemorrhage - Haemorrhage is a *focussed witchfire* power with a range of 12". The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover save allowed. If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.

Divination
Prescience - within 12, can reroll
Foreboding - this power is, Counter-attack, full Ballistic, this does not, Overwatch
Forewarning - within 12", a 4+ invulnerable
Endurance from Biomancy listed....
Perfect Timing - have the Ig
Precognition - Hit and To Wound
6. Scrier's Gaze - Scrier's Gaze is a *blessing* that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll three dice and chose the result you want when rolling for Reserves, Outflank and mysterious terrain.

Pyromancy
Flame Breath - Template
Fiery Form - +2 strength, Blaze special
Fire Shield - within 24"
Inferno - Range 24"
4. Spontaneous Combustion
Sunburst - Range 6
6. Molten Beam - is a *beam* with the following profile Range 12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta 

Telekinesis
Assail - Range 18"
Crush - is a *f*, Roll 2D6, equal to the, automatically, automatic, of a separate
Gaze of Infinity - 24", Deep Strike
3. Objuration - a single enemy, rolls a 6, squadron)., with the H, for each).
Shockwave - Range 12"
Telekine Dome - within 12", invulnerable, power is in effect, AP equal
6. Vortex of Doom - is a *witchfire* power with the following profile: Range 12" S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast* If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psyhick test, centre the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Psyker - in this case, the template does not scatter.

Telepathy
Psyhic Shriek - Roll 3D6, unit suffers, Armour and, caused by
Dominte - within 24", must pass a, shoot, Run, action is fo
Mental Fort(ification) - unit within, regroups
Puppet Master - of 24", as if it was, the Psyker, players control
Terrify - is a *malediction*, unit within, the Fearless, having the, Furthermore
Invisibility - within 24", Stealth special, gain no benefit, don't see it, Skill 1
6. Hallucination - is a *malediction* that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit).
D6 Result
1-2 *Bugs! I Hate Bugs!* Something unspeakable has gotten under the victims armour and has begun to crawl around. The unit is automatically Pinned, unless it would normally automatically pass Pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
3-4 *Ermmm?* All sense of urgency is lost, and the befuddled warrior just stare listlessly into space. The unit cannot shoot, Run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
5-6 *You! You're a Traitor!* Paranoia set in and the panicked warriors lash out at thei comrades. Every model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on his own unit, resolved at that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any).

Dark Eldar Beastmaster and Beasts in finecast advance order from 14th July
Ork Special characters in finecast, adv order from 14th July
GK Brother Captain, Inquisitor with Power Sword and Bolt Pistol, Inquisitor with Inferno Pistol and Power Sword, adv order from 14th July


----------



## Kreuger

That depends, who else is in the Tyranids' tummy?

I'm with Sethis on this one. Randomness is never a good game dynamic. The less reliable the system the harder it is for gamers to undestand and predict how the models & armies interact.


----------



## Zion

Alsojames said:


> So I just re-read the whole OP and I have to say....
> 
> STILL NO TAU CODEX?
> 
> Fuck it, I'm going back to my Guard.


If you're looking for Tau rumors your in the wrong thread to start with. This is a thread for the 6th Edition rumors, not what armies are coming out soon. Additionally all the Tau rumors that were floating around came primarily from 1 person who has since owned up about making things up to get attention. So I really don't know what you came in here looking for since Tau rumors would be in their own thread anyways.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I got the new WD today, feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it. Going to go through it now and see what's up


If we start getting confirmations from you on the new rules and things I'll be glad to change the 1st post into a list of what we know is coming vs the list we have now of what we think is coming.

@Sethis - I'm not going to quote you're entire post because there is a lot there but I'll hit up everything briefly:

You're right, it does come down to how the rules interact, but even when they work someone will still be disatisfied and add their own additional tweaks and changes anyways. This is how we got various types of Comp floating around and why people rage-quit everytime a new codex comes out.

Dwarves don't take Level 4s, they instead work to shut down your magic phase and keep your spells from working correctly. They also have items that stop things from happening (Dispell Scroll, Certain Banners, Cube of Darkness (dispells the spell AND ends the magic phase on a 4+!) and Hellheart (enemy wizards in range suffer a miscast!), not to mention the magic phase can severely punish the casters too. I'm hoping for Perils of the Warp to become more punishing to psykers to balance out these stronger powers. At least we didn't get a bunch of "characteristic test or die for everything under the template" powers added to the game.

You're right, cinematic could end up being a poorly written action movie set in a universe where everything explodes, but we can ignore rules like that if needbe. And challenges could screw over non-CC characters (though without full rules we'll have to wait to call that one), but until I see the book I'm not putting any nails into any coffins.

I wouldn't say all decisisions revolve around power armor. At least not at the Dev level. They plan things they think that are fun, try them out and if they are reasonably fun they keep the rules. On the otherhand I'm sure there are things implemented (Carnifex nerf for example) that come from management levels where their concern isn't fun but how to make more money. 

Static 6" isn't bad, and yes you may be able to screw yourself (unless your Jump Infantry apparently. All I know is I hope Beasts get 3D6 for their charge range since everyone will be looking at being able to charge up to 12"), but it also means the shooty units don't get the certinity that they have now. If I know how far you can move and charge for a fact I can make sure I only move when I absolutely HAVE to and instead use my static position to rain more steely death on you (as is often the case with many tanks, and units with Bolters). I think the intent wasn't to nerf assaults but to make it so the shooty units had to be more active in the game. 

People still take Whirlwinds? I mean I like the model fine, but in 5th edition it just doesn't work as well as other options that exist. Then again this may have more to do with the fact that 5th edition benefited Tin Cans more than Foot Sloggers.

TL;DR: I'm giving 6th edition the benefit of the doubt until I can actually play it.


----------



## Sethis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Telepathy
> 1. Psyhic Shriek - Roll 3D6, unit suffers, Armour and, caused by
> 2. Dominte - within 24", must pass a, shoot, Run, action is fo
> 3. Mental Fort(ification) - unit within, regroups
> 4. Puppet Master - of 24", as if it was, the Psyker, players control
> 5. Terrify - is a *malediction*, unit within, the Fearless, having the, Furthermore
> 6. Invisibility - within 24", Stealth special, gain no benefit, don't see it, Skill 1


*This is SPECULATION*

Talk about the go-to Lore...

1. 3D6 hits with no armour/cover saves? Fail Ld test that was rolled on 3D6? 3D6 S1 hits?
2. Must pass a Ld test every time they want to Move, Shoot, Run/Assault?
3. Unit auto-regroups.
4. Gain control of target unit
5. Ld test or run away? Ld test or WS1? Who knows.
6. Stealth USR - Possibly been changed to "roll to see it with night fighting rules, if you can't see it then you shoot at BS1"?

And the silly Hallucination one. And the kicker? They're all 24" range. Apart from Shriek, because a power with a name like that doesn't sound like it'll have a big range.

Again, all worst-case speculation.


----------



## Zion

Hey MadCowCrazy, anything on hull points or weapons having AP values, or what AP values do to armor pen rolls?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There is Only WAR!

...has sat decaying upon his Golden Throne, a sad relection of his once-glorious empire. Now the carcass of the Imperium is ready to fall, picked apart as ancient enemies stir and aliens threaten its borders, even as apostates and heretics undermine it from within.

Forging a Narrative
In 40k there's nothing more important than being able to tell a story as you play, or as we've called it in the rulebook, Forging a Narrative. With that in mind, there are a number of rules to accommodate how individual models can make a difference to the battle without bogging the game down. Some of these rules are quite subtle, such as characters being able to pick out individual targets; others are more obvious and integral to the game, like challenging your opponent to a duel.

Have you ever imagined how cool it would be to bring down a Monstrous Creature by throwing a krak grenade into its mouth? Well, you can! Have you ever wanted your army's commander to call out a rival and engage him in a duel to the death so that you may settle a grudge from a previous encounter? You can do that too!
There are a number of special rules that have been included entirely for the cinematic imagery that they bring to the tabletop.
The Hammer of Wrath special rule, for example, allows jump units to leap into combat and crush their foes beneath their armoured bulk as they hurtle down from above.
Similarly, Flying Monstrous Creatures can deliver a deadly Vector Strike as they swoop over their enemies, tearing heads from shoulders with taloned limbs as they do so.
Even a unit's desperate actions as charging enemies bear down on them is represented by the ability to make an Overwatch attack - a free round of shooting, but at Ballistic Skill 1.

Allies & Fortifications
We expanded the Force Organistation Chart to allow players to represent just such a situation on the battlefield, featuring the option to include an allied detachment as part of your standard army. Not wishing to stop there, we also included a choice of fortifications that enable players to reinforce their deployment zones with defensive emplacements, ranging from a linked section of Aegis defence lines to the mighty Fortress of Redemption.

Skyshield Landing Pads can be positioned to coordinate the arrival of your reinforcement with utmost accuracy. Many fortifications can be further augmented with a comms relay or turret-mounted anti-aircraft weapons.

Each army is led by a Warlord - a powerful, charismatic leader that represents you on the battlefield. Before every game, your Warlord makes a roll on one of the Warlord Trait tables - Command, Personal and Strategic Traits.

Some scenery types are therefore Mysterious Terrain, only revealed as flesh-searing fireblood rivers or forests of overgrown spinethorn when a unit enters its area of effect.
The Battles section of the rulebook also includes a Warzone Traits table, introducing optional rules for fighting in unusual or abnormal environments. Change things up by fighting on a high or lower-gravity battlefield or, if you're feeling particularly brave, try waging war as your forces are assailed by a planet's corrosive atmosphere or toxic mist.

There are six Eternal War scenarios, each with its own mission objectives to achieve. In many of the scenarios there are a number of objectives to contest. Some of these may house useful technology such as a targeting relay or grav wave generator, but it's also possible for an objective to have been sabotaged with proximity mines.

Under normal corcumstances, only Troops units can control objectives, but in the Big Guns Never Tire mission, for example, your Heavy Support units can capture them too, even if they are vehicles!

In each scenario, players can also attempt to complete any of the three Secondary Objectives too:
Slay the Warlord, by killing the commander of the enemy army
First Blood, by being the first to destroy an enemy unit
Linebreaker, by storming the enemy's deployment zone.

Hobbyists are introduced to a series of unique scenarios that also serve to encourage and inspire players to generate their own campaign and mission ideas.

At the rear of the rulebook lies the Appendices section, replete with handy reference sheets that include the statistics for every weapon and unit in the game (including every vehicle's Hull Points).
The Appendices also feature thirty new powers from five psyhic disciplines that Psykers can choose to generate their power from. (Is this a typo? The psyhic power cards have 34 different powers listed, 35 being the most likely as a Biomancy power was listed twice).

Having a Blast
That it's the guy in the front of your squad who always takes the first bullet is not only very cinematic, but makes you think a lot more about every move you make. I also love the fact that units are reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 when resolving Overwatch.
But ultimately, there's nothing quite as satisfying for me as yelling 'Grenade!' as your heroic Sergeant tosses a frag grenade and blasts your opponents favourite squad to smithereenes!



I'm going through the WD page by page and posting things of interest as I come across them. Will take a while but will cover everything in the WD once it's complete.


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> I got the new WD today, feel free to ask any questions about anything you might be wondering about regarding it. Going to go through it now and see what's up


Fucking. And THIS months has not yet arrived over here. :headbutt:


----------



## Zion

Doelago said:


> Fucking. And THIS months has not yet arrived over here. :headbutt:


Technically you aren't supposed to have it yet anyways. I just think MadCowCrazy probably has a friend who likes to give him copies a little early.

EDIT: I've turned the first post into a compilation of the stuff we know for sure from the WD so it doesn't get lost in the clutter of all the unconfirmed rumors (about half of which were just repeating each other to be honest).


----------



## Doelago

Zion said:


> Technically you aren't supposed to have it yet anyways. I just think MadCowCrazy probably has a friend who likes to give him copies a little early.


By this months I meant the one with fliers in it. I will most probably not have the one MadCowCrazy has by this time next month either. :laugh: (/ :cray


----------



## Zion

Doelago said:


> By this months I meant the one with fliers in it. I will most probably not have the one MadCowCrazy has by this time next month either. :laugh: (/ :cray


Have you called to GW to complain yet? One of my issues didn't arrive at all one month and they sent me a replacement issue at no cost. But yeah, the unpredictable nature of when the WD will arrive (or IF it'll arrive) is why I didn't renew my subscription and just buy them from my FLGS now instead.


----------



## Doelago

Zion said:


> Have you called to GW to complain yet? One of my issues didn't arrive at all one month and they sent me a replacement issue at no cost. But yeah, the unpredictable nature of when the WD will arrive (or IF it'll arrive) is why I didn't renew my subscription and just buy them from my FLGS now instead.


I am not a subscriber, they just have not yet arrived at my super market. There have been those months when they arrive a month late, other times they arrive shit stupid early.


----------



## Zion

Doelago said:


> I am not a subscriber, they just have not yet arrived at my super market. There have been those months when they arrive a month late, other times they arrive shit stupid early.


Ah. Not much you can do about that then.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dreadnoughts 3 Hull points

Jump packs re-roll the 2D6" charge distance in the Assault phase.
Rage gives +2 attacks on charge (seems Rage isn't renamed)

In the Chaos Daemons army everything causes Fear, which is nicely representative of their horror. But thats not nearly as exciting as the Flying Monstrous Creature rules. These allow my Bloodthrister and Daemon Princes to soar up to 24" across the tabletop, ignoring all but the most dedicated anti-aircraft weapons as they get ready to assault the puny mortals below.

Soul Grinder and Land Raiders have 4 Hull Points

Bikes and Landspeeders have Jink, gives them a 5+cover save and 4+ if they Turbo-boost or move Flat Out.


Foreboding: Allows the affected squad to fire at an assaulting unit at their full Ballistic Skill rather than BS1.


In addition, his psyhic hood will usually augment any rolls to Deny the Witch within 6" to a 4+ making hime awesome at countering any enemy psychic powers.

About Terminators...
anything short of a power fist or power axe just won't cut it in combat, meaning they'll benefit from their 2+ armour save most of the time.
GK Terminators are equipped with frag and krak grenades, meaning they can throw one during the Shooting phase.

About IG squad...
Perhaps the coolest part of the rules is that every man counts, as they can all move and fire (even the lascannon!), and can even make a valiant last stand when they're charged, overwatching with their lasguns at the incoming foe.

Saying that, I'm told that the Deathmarks are quite nasty, as snipers can select targets if they roll a 6 To Hit!

Necron Warriors have always been implacable on the advance, but as they're now able to rapid fire at long range as they move this is doubly true.

Ghost Arks have 4 hull points, Gauss takes off a Hull Point for every 6 rolled to penetrate.

Example of Land Raider shooting 4 weapons (it can fire one flamestorm cannon normally, another using its machine-spirit and then snap fire both the assault cannon and the multi-melta). Doesn't say anything about snap fire BS.

Tau Fire Warrior example. not only can they move and still rapid fire up to 30" away, making them higly mobile as the background suggests, but they can Overwatch these S5 guns if they're charged.
My Battlesuit is great as well - he provies nigh-on impossible to engage, as can scoot up to 2D6" way with his jetpack in the Assault phase.

MC are AP2, can halve attacks and perform Smash at double Strength.


----------



## GrizBe

Am I reading right.. Necron Warriors can rapid fire at long range, as they move?? Sweet.... Snipers can pick out their targets? Double sweet.

Only things i'm not liking so far is the allies and the 'fortification' foc slot... that sounds far too open to cheese in my opinion. That and the 'mysterious terrain'.... can anyone honestly say they play with those rules in fantasy?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

So Rage is still pointless? You get an extra two attacks on the charge but will still spend the entire battle being led round the table by whoever you're playing against, never getting to use the two extra attacks.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I like that they are filling out the game and making it sound more realistic than the previous rules and the codices like the chaos marine book which is the most simplest and rubbish codex ever.


----------



## Synack

Do MC's still get 2d6 for pen rolls?

Can you break down movement for different units. Can units still run and what does fleet give?

Do flyer's get cover saves for turbo boosting like they used to?


----------



## SoulGazer

So what the heck does Fear do?


----------



## Zion

SoulGazer said:


> So what the heck does Fear do?


In Fantasy it's a LD test and if you fail you're WS1 for the remainder of the turn. It only applies to close combat and charging units though.

I wonder if it applies to all units that count as Daemons (the Avatar comes to mind).


----------



## SoulGazer

Zion said:


> In Fantasy it's a LD test and if you fail you're WS1 for the remainder of the turn. It only applies to close combat and charging units though.
> 
> I wonder if it applies to all units that count as Daemons (the Avatar comes to mind).


Yeah, I meant in 40k, lol. If it does the same thing, that's pretty nasty. Would it make sense to work on Space Marines, though?


----------



## The Sturk

All of the sudden...Lychguard Dispersion Shields make even more sense. Think about it. A guardsmen HWT manages a hit with the Lascannon during Overwatch. Lychguards can now block that and reflect that back into the squad.


----------



## SoulGazer

The Sturk said:


> All of the sudden...Lychguard Dispersion Shields make even more sense. Think about it. A guardsmen HWT manages a hit with the Lascannon during Overwatch. Lychguards can now block that and reflect that back into the squad.


Except now they only have AP3 power weapons. No more fighting termies.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> First Blood, by being the first to destroy an enemy unit


So you get an automatic secondary objective by having the first turn? GWS seems to have really outdone themselves with this one.

::Facepalm::

The terminator save thing is most troubling. termies will be quite the purchase now since eldar, darkeldar, necrons, and many others will have no way to beat their armor in CC. Not to mention since only weapons with initiative 1 will be able to crack their armor, they will never die before they get to swing back...eek. Unless of course....power axes....are going to be common now? Are there power axes out there anywhere? besides kharne that is? 

Armies with no terminators just took a big hit with that one I think.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> So you get an automatic secondary objective by having the first turn? GWS seems to have really outdone themselves with this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ::Facepalm::
> 
> 
> 
> The terminator save thing is most troubling. termies will be quite the purchase now since eldar, darkeldar, necrons, and many others will have no way to beat their armor in CC.
> 
> 
> 
> Armies with no terminators just took a big hit with that one I think.


First blood isn't for killing the first model, but the first enemy UNIT. I don't know that many armies that can auto-kill something on turn one. And it's not even known if vehicles count yet (as they don't have blood....well the non-Chaos ones at least) or how that applies to MCs. 

Actually I don't know any armies that can be sure that they'll get a first turn kill by going first. Even if you set up an Alpha Strike list to do just that you leave yourself open to getting horribly butchered if your rolls don't go well or if your opponent knows how to counter it.

EDIT: You do remember that most non-Terminator packing armies tend to just drop a litteral bucket of shots (and wounds) onto Terminators to kill them right? It's easier to kill them through pure firepower than assault anyways.


----------



## Synack

I get 1st turn tank kills all the time with the vindicare assassin, so if they count, whoop whoop.


----------



## Mokuren

Eleven said:


> So you get an automatic secondary objective by having the first turn? GWS seems to have really outdone themselves with this one.


Yeah, the first blood would make sense if this was a game with an exciting and tactically deep orders and reactions phases. However, having the IGOYOUGO model means that if you win initiative you gain a free point.



Eleven said:


> The terminator save thing is most troubling. termies will be quite the purchase now since eldar, darkeldar, necrons, and many others will have no way to beat their armor in CC.
> 
> Armies with no terminators just took a big hit with that one I think.


It also means that everyone that can take a power weapon _and_ a power fist will _always_ take the latter _all the time_. Screw I1, at least it can _do_ something.

This also made storm shields marginally less useful in CC, though they're still ridiculous against shooting.

On the bright side, the huge chaos terminator squads I was fond of seem to be less of a waste of 500+ points now.

And, since we all know the true reasoning behind the rules, I guess this means that terminators weren't selling.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> First blood isn't for killing the first model, but the first enemy UNIT. I don't know that many armies that can auto-kill something on turn one. And it's not even known if vehicles count yet (as they don't have blood....well the non-Chaos ones at least) or how that applies to MCs.
> 
> Actually I don't know any armies that can be sure that they'll get a first turn kill by going first. Even if you set up an Alpha Strike list to do just that you leave yourself open to getting horribly butchered if your rolls don't go well or if your opponent knows how to counter it.


Well, if vehicles don't count as a unit anymore, then there will have to be a pretty good FAQ to fix all the instances in which the rules refer to a vehicle as a unit.

Maybe your games don't go like mine, but It's a pretty rare instance that something isn't killed in the first turn. especially now that most cover is 5+.

You don't think you can think of any armies that usually get a kill in the first turn? Do you play 40k or are you just messing with me?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Eternal War Mission table:
Mission 4: The Scouring
Place 6 Primary Objective markers face down on the table. These objective would be worth between 1 and 4 Victory Points for the side that controlled them, but, the value would not be revealed till after deployment.
In addition there were three Secondary Objectives - Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker and First Blood - each worth a single Victory Point. In this scenario, Fast Attack units also counted as scoring units, but are worth 1 Victory Point if destroyed.

Psyhic Power: Telekine Dome (not Domination that I thought)

Command Trait: Inspiring Presence - units within 12" can use Warlords Leadership

Personal Trait: Immovable Object - Warlord can capture objectives

FNP: Ignore any wounds on a 5+ that don't inflict Instant Death (so power weapons etc make no difference).

MC Vector Strike: D3+1 hits at the model's Strength on a unit moved over.

Interceptor rule: Allowed to shoot at a unit as it arrives from reserves
Skyfire rule: Can shoot at fliers at normal BS, rather than BS1

Deployment Zone: Hammer and Anvil - Fight along the length of the table, deploy on the short table edges.

Mysterious Terrain: Psychneuein Hive - Every Psyker on the board immediately suffers D3 S3 AP2 hits

Reserves: Flyers always arrive from reserve, 3+ to enter on Turn 2

Deep Strike Misshap Table: Opponent Places unit and back into reserve are still in (unit dies gone?)

Charging Multiple units: You lose the bonus Attack for charging and all units can Overwatch shoot you.

Flying Transports: If shot down all embarked models suffer a S10 hit with no saves allowed (not even invulnerable?)
Passengers can't disembark whilst it's zooming, during hover mode they can disembark but the flier can now be hit at normal BS.

Fleet: Re-roll charge distance

Bastions: Armour 14 all around, and an emplaced heavy bolter on each facing - automated weapons that target the nearest enemy unit. A Bastion can be used as neutral battlefield terrain or selected as a Fortification as part of the FOC, enabling you to deploy within a solid defensive stronghold. A Bastion can be upgraded with a comms relay or heavy weapons on its battlements.

Tank Traps: Impassible terrain to all non-Skimmer vehicles. Bike can attempt to manoeuvre past them, but must pass a difficult terrain test in order to do so. Against all other units, however, tank traps are treated as open ground, though and models hidden behind a set of tank traps can still claim a 4+ cover save from its solid, robust frame.

Aegis Defence Lines: Offer a 4+ cover save, but any unit that decides to Go to Ground behind a defence line gains +2 to its cover save, rather than +1. An Aegis defence line may also be selected as a Fortification choice.

Mysterious Forests: Models within a forest's boundary benefit from a 5+ cover save. However, forests are also mysterious terrain, so as soon as a unit enters a forest, you must roll on the Mysterious Forest table to discover what fate awaits your hapless models. Mysterious forests can range from brainleaf fronds, the sentient tendrils of which can dominate living beings and cause them to lash out at their comrades, to carnivorous jungle, which inflicts D3 S5 hits on any unit seeking shelter beneath its boughs.

Ruins: All ruins are treated as difficult terrain, but offer a 4+ cover save to those concealed within their shattered structute.

Wild Undergrowth: Difficult terrain and 5+ cover

Imperial Statuary: IG, SoB and all SM chapters are Fearless within 2" of an Imperial statuary (if you are wondering what the hell a statuary is it's a statue, model in example is the SM dude holding a sword statue GW came out with last year, or was it the year before that. Guess they didn't sell so they had to include them in the rulebook....).

Fuel Reserves: 5+ cover, every time a model successfully passes a cover save, roll a D6. On the roll of a 1, the barrel was filled with fuel and explodes, inflicting a S3 hit on any models nearby.

Fortress of Redemption: Comprising two bunker annexes, one main tower and housing an assortment of powerful weapons to defend against assault by land or by air, a Fortress of Redemption is all but unassailable. For 220 points, this awesome defensive stronghold can even be selected as a Fortification!.

Impact Craters: Area Terrain and grant 5+ cover


----------



## The Sturk

MadCowCrazy said:


> Flying Transports: If shot down all embarked models suffer a S10 hit with no saves allowed (not even invulnerable?)
> Passengers can't disembark whilst it's zooming, during hover mode they can disembark but the flier can now be hit at normal BS.


Now I am VERY glad for the Night Scythe's special rule.


----------



## XT-1984

Awsome, thank you for posting this MadCowCrazy. 

Slightly OT: If you think getting the first turn is an easy Secondary Objective, did you consider that who ever gets the second turn has the advantage when capturing Objectives? We don't know what other rules these Missions will include yet (perhaps Night Fight or a Dawn of Waresque setup).


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> Fortress of Redemption: Comprising two bunker annexes, one main tower and housing an assortment of powerful weapons to defend against assault by land or by air, a Fortress of Redemption is all but unassailable. For 220 points, this awesome defensive stronghold can even be selected as a Fortification!.


Lol, they are gonna let us buy the fortress? Bad move. It's a huge piece of terrain, that can keep an entire army out of line of....fuck it why not right?

Also thanks for posting mad cow. You are doing us quite a favor.




The Sturk said:


> Now I am VERY glad for the Night Scythe's special rule.


Agreed. This str 10 explosion is the light at the end of the tunnel for those of us fighting against valks and ravens.




XT-1984 said:


> Awsome, thank you for posting this MadCowCrazy.
> 
> Slightly OT: If you think getting the first turn is an easy Secondary Objective, did you consider that who ever gets the second turn has the advantage when capturing Objectives? We don't know what other rules these Missions will include yet (perhaps Night Fight or a Dawn of Waresque setup).


Eh, I personally thought that the first turn second turn was balanced before with alpha strike vs last turn shenanigans with objs. Giving the first player an addition point seems arbitrary. but as I can see, objectives will be worth more than 1 point each so that 1 point isn't going to matter all that much.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

MadCowCrazy said:


> Imperial Statuary: IG, SoB and all SM chapters are Fearless within 2" of an Imperial statuary (if you are wondering what the hell a statuary is it's a statue, model in example is the SM dude holding a sword statue GW came out with last year, or was it the year before that. Guess they didn't sell so they had to include them in the rulebook....).


They didn't sell because the Space Marine looked like he was about to piss himself!

Any news on whether or not their are non Imperial equivalents to the statuary?


----------



## The Sturk

normtheunsavoury said:


> They didn't sell because the Space Marine looked like he was about to piss himself!
> 
> Any news on whether or not their are non Imperial equivalents to the statuary?


Agreed. A Necron obelisk or an Ork Weapons Pile or something similar would be nice.


----------



## Eleven

Man, i'm getting eager to play with the new rules here. I can't wait to get my costanza.jpeg going to figure out if they ruined the game or not.


----------



## ohiocat110

Well, on the bright side, Sanguinary Guard appear to be getting a lot more awesome if they're 2+ versus regular power weapons and with a 2d6" charge and bonus attack.


----------



## clever handle

Re: TA & PF / PW... since I'm pretty sure there currently isn't any "power axes" may this just be a bad translation? Pretty confident this will pan out as "power weapons" as why would my axe be better than your sword...?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Assault on Fellstorm Airfield
Scenario: The Relic
Recover a valuable relic from no-man's-land that will help them to gin the upper hand in the ongoing conflict. The relic begins the game in the centre of the battlefield, but any scoring unit (in this mission units from the Troops section of the Force Organisation Chart) (I guess this means the Immovable Object Scoring Warlord power can't be used?) can pick it up and attempt to move it to safety. The unit carrying the relic cannot move more than 6" in a single phase and will drop the relic if killed.

Deployment Vanguard Strike: Diagonal deployment zone trunning through the centre of the board. (Top right vs bottom left side with the relic in the middle pretty much. Same as Apocalypse if you've ever played that.)

Flat Out and Run: D6 extra movement

Stunned Dreadnoughts can still Snap Shot, Snap Shots need 6s To Hit.

Krak grenade used in the shooting phase to destroy an Ork Trukk.

Still Move, Shoot and Assault as the above unit assaulted the boys that disembarked from the Trukk.

Flamers do D3 hits during Overwatch (Have fun charging 15 Burna Boys)

Fliers can chose to Evade when shot at giving them a 5+ cover save, but can only Snap Fire during their next shooting phase. Can leave the board and return from reserves.
"Da Krimson Barun, only able to fire Snap Shots having evaded last turn, gunned his engines and zoomed off the board, but would return as part of Ongoing Reserves in the following Movement Phase. (This happens during turn 3-4, does that mean reserves are now 3+ for turn 2, 2+ for turn 3, automatic on turn 4?)

Fliers can shoot Fliers with no penalties to hit. Explains the 60" ranged Stormtalon missiles.

Fliers: When destroyed scatter and damage units on ground.
"But Steve did have the last laugh when the wreckage of his Stormtalon spiralled earthwards to land directly on top of the Ork Bastion, killing three Ork Boyz in the ensuing explosion.

Units with a sergeant type model can perform Look Out, Sir, 4+ if model is not an IC (example used, Ork boy trying to save Nob...well, the nob grabbing an Ork boy to use as a bullet shield is the more likely scenario...).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More Finecast

Tau: Commander Shadowsun
Krootox
Available for pre-order July14th


Divination
1. Foreboding - is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit have the Counter-attack special rule and fire Overwatch on their full Ballistic Skill, rather than Ballistic Skill 1. Note that this does not allow weapons that could not normally fire Overwatch to do so.

Interesting note on the Hour of the Witch page.
"Only the armies (and units within those armies) specifically mentioned here can access the new psychic powers. Some armies (namely the Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau) don't have psykers at all, whilst other races harness the Warp in such an unusual way (Orks and Chaos Daemons in particular) that they always use their own unique rules.

Why wasn't Sisters of Battle mentioned in the above exclusion together with DE, Nec and Tau? Knowing GW it's most likely a miss as when it comes to the SoB they can't even spell their rules correctly or show the correct model with the correct weapon...
If this is not a miss then I guess it's proof that we will have Inquisitors in the SoB codex as I can't think of any other Psyker the SoB would even tolerate.

Hour of the Witch
Witchfire: most psykers can't use more than one witchfire each turn

Codex: Blood Angels
A BA Lib (inc Mephiston) may use the psychic disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Blood Angels. If he does so, generate two new powers from the Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination) before armies are deployed.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Any model with psychic powers may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40K rulebook, instead of those in Codex: CSM. If he does so, for each psychic power he has purchased from Codex:CSM, generate a new power from the Pyromancy, Telekinesis or Telepathy discipline before armies are deployed. A model can generate powers from different disciplines if you wish. Typhus generates two new powers. Ahriman generates three.

Codex: Dark Angels
A DA Lib (inc Ezekiel) may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k rulebook. Generate 2 new powers from Div, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis.

Codex: Eldar
Farseer (inc Eldrad), for each power bought, generate a new power from Div or Telepathy. Eldrad generates 4.

Codex: GK
A GK Lib (no mentions of anyone else), generate a number of powers equal to mastery level from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis. If he does so he may not purchase additional powers. Hammerhand cannot be exchanged in this manner.
An Inquisitor with Mastery 1 can generate 1 power from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis.
Coteaz can generate 2 powers from Div, Pyro or Telekinesis.

Codex: IG
Primaris Psyker, generate 2 new powers from Bio, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis.

Codex: SM
SM Lib (inc Tigurius), generate 2 powers from Bio, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis. Tigurius generates 3.

Codex: SW
Rune Priest (inc Njal), generate 2 powers from Bio, Div or Telekinesis

Codex: Tyranids
Any model with psychic powers, for each psychic power it has, including those purchased, generate a new power from either Bio, Telekinses or Telepathy. (I'm glad they dont have Pyromancy as 3 Zoanthropes casting Molten Beam would be real nasty).


Article states: "Accordingly, players should feel free to use the guidance in this article to grant their psykers access to the new powers."
Sounds good and all but since they dont list all the powers and what they do the article is pretty useless. Or....do they mean you have to have this WD in order to be able to use the generic powers? Wont the list and rules be in the BRB?


Wound Allocation: Closest model is Shooting only?


Rest of the WD is ads pretty much.

Last page is a picture of some CSM and Daemons.
In next month's issue: BATTLE-BROTHERS AND INFERNAL ALLIES - We take a closer look at Allied Detachments.
WD 392 on sale Sat 28th of July.


If you have a question and it hasn't been answered by anything I've written so far then there is simply no answer in the WD. I've gone trough the WD page by page, article by article to fish out as much info as I could. If you dont have your answer you will have to wait for the BRB.


----------



## Mokuren

MadCowCrazy said:


> Flat Out and Run: D6 extra movement


So _everyone_ can run and assault now? But run allows to reroll charge distance?

I'm not against that.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Stunned Dreadnoughts can still Snap Shot, Snap Shots need 6s To Hit.


So... Snap shot is a way to allow shooting while stunned though at BS 1 instead of "no shooting" at all? Kind of makes sense if "Vehicle stunned" is the least damaging result, I wonder what extra armour does now?



MadCowCrazy said:


> Krak grenade used in the shooting phase to destroy an Ork Trukk.


Can _all_ models with grenades throw them in the shooting phase or just one? Because if it's the latter, getting frag and krak for free might not have been simply a matter of basic life support for SoB. It might be even more. Also it might make sense to get krak grenades for IG.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Flamers do D3 hits during Overwatch (Have fun charging 15 Burna Boys)


Oh thank goodness, I was left under the impression that a LASCANNON was a better weapon to defend against charges than a flamer.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Units with a sergeant type model can perform Look Out, Sir, 4+ if model is not an IC (example used, Ork boy trying to save Nob...well, the nob grabbing an Ork boy to use as a bullet shield is the more likely scenario...).


Ah, good, I was hoping for a Look Out, Sir rule now that models at the front get hit first. If we didn't, we'd be full of valiant commanders leading from the back: so much for cinematic!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Mokuren said:


> So _everyone_ can run and assault now? But run allows to reroll charge distance?
> 
> I'm not against that.
> There was no info regarding this, I doubt everyone can run and assault. Only info on Fleet is that it allows re-rolling of the 2D6 to charge
> 
> So... Snap shot is a way to allow shooting while stunned though at BS 1 instead of "no shooting" at all? Kind of makes sense if "Vehicle stunned" is the least damaging result, I wonder what extra armour does now?
> Same as always, reduce Stunned to Shaken so you can move and shoot with Snap Fire?
> 
> 
> Can _all_ models with grenades throw them in the shooting phase or just one? Because if it's the latter, getting frag and krak for free might not have been simply a matter of basic life support for SoB. It might be even more. Also it might make sense to get krak grenades for IG.
> All examples given had a sergeant or other leader model throwing the grenades, not sure if all models can do it.
> 
> 
> Oh thank goodness, I was left under the impression that a LASCANNON was a better weapon to defend against charges than a flamer.
> Seems you dont even need to place your flamer guys at the front. Keep them at the back so they dont get picked off by shooting, then each does D3 hits when charged. You dont get to place a template it seems.
> 
> 
> Ah, good, I was hoping for a Look Out, Sir rule now that models at the front get hit first. If we didn't, we'd be full of valiant commanders leading from the back: so much for cinematic!
> I think it was Jervis who said that the most important part of a 40k game is the Narrative gameplay. I believe I quoted it in my first post. The goal of 6E seems to be to bring a very cinematic game to the tabletop
> 
> On another note pretty much everything in the WD is the same as in the leaked rules from earlier this year.


----------



## SoulGazer

No way to tell what Fear is from the battle report, then?

Btw, thanks very much for posting all this.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SoulGazer said:


> No way to tell what Fear is from the battle report, then?
> 
> Btw, thanks very much for posting all this.


No, it reveals nothing. Unless I'm blind. Most likely same as Fantasy, LD test when charged, if failed you are WS1 until end of combat.


----------



## SoulGazer

MadCowCrazy said:


> No, it reveals nothing. Unless I'm blind. Most likely same as Fantasy, LD test when charged, if failed you are WS1 until end of combat.


Man, that could ruin people's day right there on a bad dice roll. Looking forward to some hilarious daemon vs GK fights that become hilarious because of this rule. :biggrin:


----------



## Styro-J

So, still no clear idea on what Hull Points do. Ah well, its only another week


----------



## Words_of_Truth

But Space Marines and Grey Knights know no fear...


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Codex: Dark Angels
> A DA Lib (inc Ezekiel) may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k rulebook. Generate 2 new powers from Div, Pyro, Telepathy or Telekinesis.


You mean, DA libbies and Ezekiel could now be worth taking?

This makes me a very happy dress-wearer. :yahoo:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

spanner94ezekiel said:


> You mean, DA libbies and Ezekiel could now be worth taking?
> 
> This makes me a very happy dress-wearer. :yahoo:


Exactly.. That and DW are a bit scarier in CC I suppose. Considering completely new builds now.


----------



## SilverTabby

Going by the army lists presented on p.60 - 61, the allies FOC slots are seperate to the main army ones. Otherwise both armies are illegal, as the IG take 2 HQs and the GKs have one, and the Chaos force has 3 HQs and 4 Heavy Support total.

This pleases me. I'll read the rest of the WD at some point tomorrow.


----------



## Mokuren

SilverTabby said:


> Going by the army lists presented on p.60 - 61, the allies FOC slots are seperate to the main army ones. Otherwise both armies are illegal, as the IG take 2 HQs and the GKs have one, and the Chaos force has 3 HQs and 4 Heavy Support total.


Oh dear...

This... This might get silly, I do admit. Hopefully point costs will prevent the most ludicrous of abuses, but abusing allies to get extended FOC shenanigans sounds like a terribad recipe.


----------



## mcmuffin

So, we are assuming power weapons are AP3 based on some loose phrasing in WD? Super. If it says a power fist or power axe, i guarantee that refers to all power weapons


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Fun army to do

GKs
Hereticus Inquisitor with Psyocculum
12 Monkeys

Hereticus Inquisitor with Psyocculum
12 Monkeys

GK Allies
Hereticus Inquisitor with Psyocculum
12 Monkeys

Hereticus Inquisitor with Psyocculum
12 Monkeys

Hope you get the psychic power that lets you shoot Overwatch at normal BS on each Inquisitor.

I call this army the FUCK YOU GRAY KNIGHTS!!!
What this list does is give you 48 Lascannons that are BS10 when shooting at any unit containing a Psyker. If you have the psychic power going you will shoot at any assaulting unit containing a psyker at BS10 with Lascannons, Multi Melta or Heavy Flamers. You'd obviously chose Lascannons if you have the power going and Heavy Flamers if you dont.

Your Grey Knight opponent has a 5 Kill point list? It's dead turn 2 because you do sooo much dmg 

Perhaps you can't ally with yourself? That chart from GW did allow it though, but that was for a 2v2 tournament.


----------



## mcmuffin

Are psy powers definitely random?


----------



## boreas

MCC, you could model each inquisitor as Bruce Willis and call the Twelve Monkeys list.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mcmuffin said:


> Are psy powers definitely random?


The way it's described is as follows. Lets say you have a Psyker, your psyker comes with ubersucky power 1, ubersucky power 2, fucking OP POWER 3.
You can take ubersucky 1 and 2, flush them down the toilet and select 2 schools of powers based on what your army can chose, both can be the same school.

You then "generate" your new powers, what this means is never described or explained but most likely same as fantasy. You Roll a D6, there will be a base power in every school you can always select, there are 7 powers in every school so you basically roll for power 2-7 on a D6. If you chose the same school twice you get to roll 2D6, if you roll doubles you get the power the number is and can select any other power in that school of magic.

This is how fantasy works and I bet it will be the exact same for 40K.



boreas said:


> MCC, you could model each inquisitor as Bruce Willis and call the Twelve Monkeys list.


Yeah, and this will be my armys Iconography and banner graphics


----------



## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> Perhaps you can't ally with yourself? That chart from GW did allow it though, but that was for a 2v2 tournament.


One army allied with the same army is just stupid. In a multiplayer game it makes sense because you can't force the other guy to play something else but per player it just seems like a silly way to eek out extra HQ slots etc. Granted I guess abusive HQ's are costly so I wouldn't be terribly worried, it just seems unintended. 

On the other hand you could have allied successor chapters, craftworlds, hives, etc, logically. Though it doesn't make as much sense for the rule.




mcmuffin said:


> So, we are assuming power weapons are AP3 based on some loose phrasing in WD? Super. If it says a power fist or power axe, i guarantee that refers to all power weapons


I thought it said the fist/axe/possibly hammer were AP2 or something while the rest was AP3. Though I'm curious if all melee weapons get AP though and what. Would be nice if chainswords did more than oh...knives an such.


----------



## mcmuffin

Karyudo-DS said:


> I thought it said the fist/axe/possibly hammer were AP2 or something while the rest was AP3. Though I'm curious if all melee weapons get AP though and what. Would be nice if chainswords did more than oh...knives an such.


There are no differentiations between power axes and other power weapons


----------



## MichaelCarmine

mcmuffin said:


> There are no differentiations between power axes and other power weapons


Maybe there are now? Isn't there a Rumour, that Powerswords grant a 5++ in CC? :scratchhead:


----------



## mcmuffin

MichaelCarmine said:


> Maybe there are now? Isn't there a Rumour, that Powerswords grant a 5++ in CC? :scratchhead:


in the wargear entries of codices there arent. It seems counter productive


----------



## Karyudo-DS

mcmuffin said:


> There are no differentiations between power axes and other power weapons


Well this...



> About Terminators...
> 
> anything short of a power fist or power axe just won't cut it in combat, meaning they'll benefit from their 2+ armour save most of the time.


...suggests otherwise. I'm not really sure about the axes but I get the fist/hammers at least. If you can punch a tank dead, infantry shouldn't be an issue. This wouldn't even be worth mentioning if they were the same as power weapons otherwise because before those worked.


----------



## mcmuffin

Karyudo-DS said:


> Well this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...suggests otherwise. I'm not really sure about the axes but I get the fist/hammers at least. If you can punch a tank dead, infantry shouldn't be an issue. This wouldn't even be worth mentioning if they were the same as power weapons otherwise because before those worked.


It is white dwarf, it is notoriously shit and badly written. once i have the rules in my hand i will be happy to accept it, but until then power weapons are ap2


----------



## MichaelCarmine

mcmuffin said:


> in the wargear entries of codices there arent. It seems counter productive


Jeah, maybe...
But in Codex: SW, for example, you can choose between Frostaxes and Frostblades... Also Powerweapons... But with +1 Strength, of course...
GW only has to say, if you have access to Powerweapons, you can choose between one of the effects!?


----------



## mcmuffin

MichaelCarmine said:


> Jeah, maybe...
> But in Codex: SW, for example, you can choose between Frostaxes and Frostblades... Also Powerweapons... But with +1 Strength, of course...
> GW only has to say, if you have access to Powerweapons, you can choose between one of the effects!?


Possibly, i'd just count everything as an axe then, i'll be a dancing ballsack before i change all of the wargear on my power weapon units.


----------



## Kelann08

MichaelCarmine said:


> Maybe there are now? Isn't there a Rumour, that Powerswords grant a 5++ in CC? :scratchhead:


I'm pretty sure that rumor was mastercrafted power weapons providing a 5++.


----------



## MichaelCarmine

Kelann08 said:


> I'm pretty sure that rumor was mastercrafted power weapons providing a 5++.


Additionaly to the reroll? That would be prety cool, i think. Especialy for BA Sanguinary Guard... So now, they get 5 reroll and 5++ in CC


----------



## Diatribe1974

Well, I did my pre-order at my FLGS (with a nice 20% off) for 6th edition. All paid up and waiting on it to show on the 30th. That and I also ordered another Dwarf Warriors box & my Skaven Codex. Yeah, I spent some money today. heh.


----------



## scscofield

MichaelCarmine said:


> Jeah, maybe...
> But in Codex: SW, for example, you can choose between Frostaxes and Frostblades... Also Powerweapons... But with +1 Strength, of course...
> GW only has to say, if you have access to Powerweapons, you can choose between one of the effects!?



In game terms there is no difference between the Frostblade and Frostaxe though. They count as the same thing in terms of wargear. They even stat that they don't count in the FaQ or book as being different wargear for the whole HQ must be geared differently thing SW have.


----------



## MichaelCarmine

scscofield said:


> In game terms there is no difference between the Frostblade and Frostaxe though. They count as the same thing in terms of wargear. They even stat that they don't count in the FaQ or book as being different wargear for the whole HQ must be geared differently thing SW have.


I know, but why did they list them both in the wargear-options? To many ink in the Storageroom? I know, we are talking about GW, but that not even made sense, when i played them myself... :dunno:

Would be cool, if they are AP 2 in the end! In this case, i don't have to cut my Pairs of Lightning-Claws off of my Sergeants...


----------



## Diatribe1974

So far, what all has people going "Oh yeah, that's great news!" and what else has folks going "Well shit...that sucks...." ?


----------



## D-A-C

I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything that might be of interest to Daemon players?

So far we're missing everything.

1. No new Finecasts?

2. No psychic powers (although I understand the codex explains that we don't us them lol)

3. No flyers


So anything that might be of interest?

All I've noticed is (maybe) assaulting off deepstrike which might be a bit overpowered in some cases IMO if true, and also, that Flying MC's can do a 24" assault move that ignores all small arms fire or something, which sounds like good news for DPs.

Anything else?


----------



## maddermax

I'm going to agree with mcmuffin here that, in all probability all power weapons will be AP2. Firstly, after the first rumors of AP3 power weapons came out, newer rumors from people who actually had seen the new BRB said that they were AP2, and that the earlier rumors were incorrect. Secondly, if they differentiated power axes and swords, there'd be a lot of annoyed modelers who'll have to change weapons around on a bunch of their finished models. Ijist don't see them doing that.

If other rumors are correct, force weapons are no longer AP2, however, and perhaps they've raised the AP of some other options, but I wouldn't believe it of power weapons until we had some solid confirmation, not a quote from WD which says and implies nothing about power-swords and the like.


----------



## Azkaellon

Wait wait wait....does this edition mean Mandrakes will be GOOD? O.O!


----------



## Kelann08

D-A-C said:


> All I've noticed is (maybe) assaulting off deepstrike which might be a bit overpowered in some cases IMO if true


I thought we saw a rumor post in which this was asked and the response was "not true". I can't remember where I saw it.


----------



## Eleven

D-A-C said:


> I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything that might be of interest to Daemon players?
> 
> So far we're missing everything.
> 
> 1. No new Finecasts?
> 
> 2. No psychic powers (although I understand the codex explains that we don't us them lol)
> 
> 3. No flyers
> 
> 
> So anything that might be of interest?
> 
> All I've noticed is (maybe) assaulting off deepstrike which might be a bit overpowered in some cases IMO if true, and also, that Flying MC's can do a 24" assault move that ignores all small arms fire or something, which sounds like good news for DPs.
> 
> Anything else?


it's possible that there will be no more mishap that kills your whole unit.


----------



## Zion

Sorry about the delay getting the first post updated there. I've added all the WD stuff to that post now though.

Thanks again to MadCowCrazy for providing that information!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

D-A-C said:


> I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything that might be of interest to Daemon players?
> 
> So far we're missing everything.
> 
> 1. No new Finecasts?
> 
> 2. No psychic powers (although I understand the codex explains that we don't us them lol)
> 
> 3. No flyers
> 
> 
> So anything that might be of interest?
> 
> All I've noticed is (maybe) assaulting off deepstrike which might be a bit overpowered in some cases IMO if true, and also, that Flying MC's can do a 24" assault move that ignores all small arms fire or something, which sounds like good news for DPs.
> 
> Anything else?



All Daemons cause Fear, what this does isn't explained but probably similar to fantasy where a unit has to pass a LD test or be reduced to WS1.

Flying Monstrous creatures seems to have the Flyer rule which means they can only be hot on 6s To Hit unless shot at by a unit with skills to shoot at normal BS or shot by another Flier.

Flying MC can move 24", you can do an attack vs 1 unit you fly over, causing D3+1 hits at the MC Strength.


----------



## Eleven

Fliers can chose to Evade when shot at giving them a 5+ cover save, but can only Snap Fire during their next shooting phase. 

This will rock on the doomscythe, unless they write in that you can't snap shot the dooms cannon.


----------



## Kelann08

Zion said:


> Sorry about the delay getting the first post updated there. I've added all the WD stuff to that post now though.
> 
> Thanks again to MadCowCrazy for providing that information!


For some reason when I read what you type and see your avatar in the peripheral of my vision, it looks like Admiral Ackbar. I have to look at it directly to see it for what it really is.


----------



## humakt

Sounds like you will need flyers in most armies to have a chance off taking out flyers.


----------



## SilverTabby

It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility to have power axes do more damage than swords. It used to be they were more powerful because you could weild them 2handed. 

It's also not unreasonable to think axes = better AP or strength but need 2 hands, swords = parry 5++ in CC. 

Basic power weapons being AP3 makes sense when you look at the Sisters Battle Enclave. The old rules made Death Cult Assassins one of the best units in the game. Very little could take a charge from them. Use the rules they were written for however, and suddenly they aren't so overpowered. Also, the Sisters Command Squad makes a bit more sense, as Relentless rumours would have them being much better, especially with Preferred Enemy from the Canoness giving shooting rerolls. 

I think a lot of recent releases will suddenly 'click' and make more sense in, oooh, about a week...


----------



## TechPr1est

honeslty i think mad cow crazy and zion deserve a good amount of rep and a round of applause for getting all this to us
:biggrin::gimmefive::clapping::clapping::clapping:

great job guys on this thread


unfortuantely i only have 3 rep power and can only give out 3 p


----------



## Azkaellon

So anyone hear anything that will change Dark Eldar play styles? Or make another unit good...or bad?


----------



## Sethis

Azkaellon said:


> So anyone hear anything that will change Dark Eldar play styles? Or make another unit good...or bad?


Flyer rules, obviously, for the Razorwing/Bomber.

5+ FnP is a nerf but apparantly you might get it against power weapons and AP2 so long as it isn't S6 or higher.

Venoms can Snap Fire 12 shots at BS1 (including when being assaulted?) which seems better than many other vehicles.

Seems to be more incidents of "S3 explosion" which hurts anything that isn't a Marine.


----------



## Azkaellon

Sethis said:


> Flyer rules, obviously, for the Razorwing/Bomber.
> 
> 5+ FnP is a nerf but apparantly you might get it against power weapons and AP2 so long as it isn't S6 or higher.
> 
> Venoms can Snap Fire 12 shots at BS1 (including when being assaulted?) which seems better than many other vehicles.
> 
> Seems to be more incidents of "S3 explosion" which hurts anything that isn't a Marine.


Well damn...Thats not bad! Thanks for the info....I hate to say it but this Edition is making me REALLY want to use Mandrakes. (they look sweet.....and might not suck)


----------



## Sethis

Thanks MCC for providing the info! k:



> Some scenery types are therefore Mysterious Terrain, only revealed as flesh-searing fireblood rivers or forests of overgrown spinethorn when a unit enters its area of effect.


Because in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, there are NO EYES. Or scanners. Or maps. Or binoculars. Or scouts. Everyone will be ignoring this rule.



> The Battles section of the rulebook also includes a Warzone Traits table, introducing optional rules for fighting in unusual or abnormal environments. Change things up by fighting on a high or lower-gravity battlefield or, if you're feeling particularly brave, try waging war as your forces are assailed by a planet's corrosive atmosphere or toxic mist.


This, I like. Because it's optional. So when I'm having a laugh with my mates round one of our houses, we can play this for giggles. When I'm playing in a tourney then I can ignore it.



> Under normal corcumstances, only Troops units can control objectives, but in the Big Guns Never Tire mission, for example, your Heavy Support units can capture them too, even if they are vehicles!


Yes. Because what the game needed was scoring Leman Russ squadrons. /facepalm



> First Blood, by being the first to destroy an enemy unit


So yes, +1VP for going first. Ho hum. (Unless you think 15 Long Fangs and 6+ Las/Plas can't kill a Rhino turn 1)



> But ultimately, there's nothing quite as satisfying for me as yelling 'Grenade!' as your heroic Sergeant tosses a frag grenade and blasts your opponents favourite squad to smithereenes!


Ignoring the hyperbole, implies squads with grenades may choose one member of the squad to throw a grenade instead of firing their normal weapon. I'm guessing 6-12" range, small blast, S3/4 AP5/6. In this case you choose the Sergeant because he has a bolt pistol and not a bolter.



> These allow my Bloodthirster and Daemon Princes to soar up to 24" across the tabletop, ignoring all but the most dedicated anti-aircraft weapons as they get ready to assault the puny mortals below.


So they replace "Turbo boost" with "Zoom" and allow MCs with wings to do it.



> In addition, his psychic hood will usually augment any rolls to Deny the Witch within 6" to a 4+ making hime awesome at countering any enemy psychic powers.


Interesting. Implies Hoods no longer dispel powers entirely but rather increase the native 6++ to a 4++. Remains to be seen if that works on powers that do not cause wounds (so can you get that save against things like Hallucination?). One of the big problems with WFB was that Ward Saves did fuck all against the best spells, making them rather pointless.



> MC are AP2, can halve attacks and perform Smash at double Strength.


That says to me that MCs have lost their 2D6 penetration. Think about it - You can either attack twice at S10 + 2D6 or you can attack 4+ times at S6 +2D6. Why would you ever choose the former? Even if vehicles are now WS1 (3+ to hit) then you're far better off going for more attacks. However if you don't get 2D6 any more, suddenly that S10 looks a lot more inviting. Especially if you don't auto-hit rear armour any more.



> Charging Multiple units: You lose the bonus Attack for charging and all units can Overwatch shoot you.


Great, so I'll never be multi-assaulting again, ever. Especially against Space Wolves (Overwatch shooting + Counter attack vs your... base number of attacks)



> Fuel Reserves: 5+ cover, every time a model successfully passes a cover save, roll a D6. On the roll of a 1, the barrel was filled with fuel and explodes, inflicting a S3 hit on any models nearby.


Here's hoping that they've written it clearly enough so that it only ever happens once. Otherwise:

"I shoot your Guardians with 10 bolters"
"I take 7 wounds, and take 7 cover saves. I roll 3 1s!"
"Oh dear, looks like you're taking 3 S3 hits per model in the unit from shit exploding"
"Oh. Can I just choose to not take the cover saves? I'll lose less men that way..."

Unless you're a Space Marine, in which case you're only taking the cover save against AP3 or better, so a S3 hit with no AP doesn't really bother you, especially since you're never going to take more than half a dozen cover saves in one go because there isn't that much AP2/3 in the game.



> Witchfire: most psykers can't use more than one witchfire each turn


Fancy way of saying "Psykers still can't shoot with multiple shooting psychic attacks". Shrug.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

humakt said:


> Sounds like you will need flyers in most armies to have a chance off taking out flyers.


I dont think Orks will care, hitting on 5s or 6s, who cares.... DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!!

Tankbustas in a Battlewagon might be a really good way to shoot them down, unless they also have the rule that reduces the range of all weapons shot at them by 24".

Pintle mounted weapons can apparently shoot at fliers with no penalty.... but what pintlemounted weapons have the strength to even glance AV10-12?

Chaos Rhino Havoc launcher? Is that a pintle mounted weapon?


----------



## maddermax

MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont think Orks will care, hitting on 5s or 6s, who cares.... DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!!
> 
> Tankbustas in a Battlewagon might be a really good way to shoot them down, unless they also have the rule that reduces the range of all weapons shot at them by 24".
> 
> Pintle mounted weapons can apparently shoot at fliers with no penalty.... but what pintlemounted weapons have the strength to even glance AV10-12?
> 
> Chaos Rhino Havoc launcher? Is that a pintle mounted weapon?


Pintle mounted combi-bolters, for one shot chances would be a possibility. Also, pintle mounted multi-meltas on Land raiders.


----------



## Azkaellon

maddermax said:


> Pintle mounted combi-bolters, for one shot chances would be a possibility. Also, pintle mounted multi-meltas on Land raiders.


hmm....you have a good point it would be a good idea to kill anything with pintle mounts asap.... Do we know if any troops will be able to shoot down fliers easy enough? (Orks don't count)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So it will be easier to hit fliers with blast weapons, better to shoot the frag at a flier than the krak? Perhaps blast weapons can't hit fliers?

Still nothing about assaulting fliers, I hope you can't do it, perhaps with assault troops but they'd have to take dangerous terrain tests or something


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Assaulting a flier is insane... I love it


----------



## misfratz

Karyudo-DS said:


> Assaulting a flier is insane... I love it


Legolas would assault a flier - but I'm not sure about anyone in the 40K universe.

Though, thinking about it, given how dangerous bird-strike is for real-world planes, I'd reckon gargoyles could bring down most planes by clogging the engines...


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Not to mention I think the Space Marine game had rocket propelled orks trying to bring down a Valkyrie in flight... A decidedly suicidal move but if we're going"cinematic" here? I could actually see this being done. Having assault Marines jump up and taking down some flying beast sounds "exciting". Also helps make jump infantry useful as a possible flier solution.


----------



## SilverTabby

My gargoyles never do anything but die, so them dying taking out enemy fliers seems a step up :wink:


----------



## Mokuren

maddermax said:


> Pintle mounted combi-bolters, for one shot chances would be a possibility. Also, pintle mounted multi-meltas on Land raiders.


So... If your army doesn't have pintle-mounted heavy weapons or- let's drop all the pretenses, if you're not a SPACE MARINE a flyer will fuck your day so bad it's like you're facing a mech spam list armed with nothing but laspistols.


----------



## SilverTabby

Let's have a look at which armies don't have fliers, or creatures that can fly.

If you don't use FW stuff, that's Sisters (interim codex), Eldar (old codex) and Tau (old codex). If I'm missing something really obvious please let me know.

We haven't seen the rulebook yet. We're only getting one side of the flier story, the bits that make them sound awesome. For all we know, anything classed as Heavy Support might have access to this Skyfire rule. 

The old 'flying high' rules made jump packs and wings an unstoppable pain in the ass. I sincerely doubt they'd put something back in like that. The appearance at present is that 6s to hit only apply at speed or at higher level flying, which also screws your own effectiveness. 

Let's see the whole picture before we decry it as broken?


----------



## TechPr1est

DAKKA DAKKKA WAAAAAGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry bout that just excited and pumped with energy drinks with my mates over constantly refreshing the gw homepage until we can get a proper look at the stuff


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> Let's have a look at which armies don't have fliers, or creatures that can fly.
> 
> If you don't use FW stuff, that's Sisters (interim codex), Eldar (old codex) and Tau (old codex). If I'm missing something really obvious please let me know.


Thought there was mention of the skimmers being FAQd to fly or something. I mean it seems stupid Eldar would lack fliers when a flying dive-bomb is the Apoc Falcon formation special rule. I would guess Tau would get the same deal if there were the case. Of course it looks like you can just bring in allied fliers anyway or buy a quad gun. 

I don't think jump troops need flying high specifically, but it would make sense if the could attack things in the air at least. If nothing else at least on the way down.


----------



## Mokuren

SilverTabby said:


> We haven't seen the rulebook yet. We're only getting one side of the flier story, the bits that make them sound awesome. For all we know, anything classed as Heavy Support might have access to this Skyfire rule.
> 
> The old 'flying high' rules made jump packs and wings an unstoppable pain in the ass. I sincerely doubt they'd put something back in like that. The appearance at present is that 6s to hit only apply at speed or at higher level flying, which also screws your own effectiveness.
> 
> Let's see the whole picture before we decry it as broken?


I might certainly be overreacting, but seeing how nids got screwed over first by the "Fuck your old models, we're nerfing them to the ground, but look at these _new_ and _expensive_ ones! They're totally a no-brainer and you must buy seven!" policy, and what then happened with the SoB to the Canoness and St. Celestine, I am honestly and sincerely expecting them to make flyers as broken and OP as humanly possible just because they would sell more that way.



Karyudo-DS said:


> Thought there was mention of the skimmers being FAQd to fly or something. I mean it seems stupid Eldar would lack fliers when a flying dive-bomb is the Apoc Falcon formation special rule. I would guess Tau would get the same deal if there were the case. Of course it looks like you can just bring in allied fliers anyway or buy a quad gun.


Allies and fortifications might help compensate, at least they seem to have had the decency to take this into account when introducing rules that blatantly benefit the usual armies and methodically screw the underdogs.

But I do hope skimmers won't be FAQd to fly, I don't want to go back to the days when Eldar mech spam lists with holofields were pretty much unkillable. Albeit I admit this might again be my paranoia speaking since we don't really know how hull points are supposed to work.


----------



## Bindi Baji

SilverTabby said:


> If you don't use FW stuff, that's Sisters (interim codex), Eldar (old codex) and Tau (old codex). If I'm missing something really obvious please let me know.


Tau and Eldar have things on the way, no idea about sob however


----------



## Gret79

Bindi Baji said:


> Tau and Eldar have things on the way, no idea about sob however


Whats on the way for the eldar? That's the first time I've heard anything


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Mokuren said:


> Allies and fortifications might help compensate, at least they seem to have had the decency to take this into account when introducing rules that blatantly benefit the usual armies and methodically screw the underdogs.
> 
> But I do hope skimmers won't be FAQd to fly, I don't want to go back to the days when Eldar mech spam lists with holofields were pretty much unkillable. Albeit I admit this might again be my paranoia speaking since we don't really know how hull points are supposed to work.


On one hand allies seems like a way got get people to buy more just because but at the same time you can't really cry that your codex sucks donkey when you can argument it. I can't fight terminators with banshees anymore (at least not as well as scopions) but I can send terminators with my Eldar as troops  

Hopefully the cheese won't go sky high but we'll see. Far as skimmers go, things have already changed, an Eldar mech lust might get chewn to pieces by AA, storm ravens, storm talons, orks or necron fliers, I mean they would be far from alone, even throw in Tau! So I don't think it would be an issue... Not anymore than all jetbike armies. Falcons and Serpents have to touch down to drop troops anyway so they can't stay up usefully.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Gret79 said:


> Whats on the way for the eldar? That's the first time I've heard anything


A flying thingummy, with guns :wink:


----------



## Mokuren

Karyudo-DS said:


> On one hand allies seems like a way got get people to buy more just because but at the same time you can't really cry that your codex sucks donkey when you can argument it. I can't fight terminators with banshees anymore (at least not as well as scopions) but I can send terminators with my Eldar as troops


Reason for which I remain that allies are awesome (albeit their rumoured "out of FOC" shenanigans sound pretty dumb), though it's not really because this allows me to field a codex GW gives not a single damn about and not autolose, it's mostly because it helps make boring armies more colourful, and add variety in general.

And I love variety, which is why it makes me a bit sad that the actual reason for allies might be a cheap way to "update" old armies. I hope this doesn't mean the SoB update is pushed from late 2078 to early 3512.



Kyarudo-DS said:


> Hopefully the cheese won't go sky high but we'll see. Far as skimmers go, things have already changed, an Eldar mech lust might get chewn to pieces by AA, storm ravens, storm talons, orks or necron fliers, I mean they would be far from alone, even throw in Tau! So I don't think it would be an issue... Not anymore than all jetbike armies. Falcons and Serpents have to touch down to drop troops anyway so they can't stay up usefully.


What, there's Eldar players that still field troops in transports? And expect to unload them?

I thought everyone just went "Eldrad + the bare absolute minimum of the crappiest troop choices and then just mech spam".

There's one thing that I've been wondering about lately... If there's dice with super special awesome pre-determined sides for AP 1, AP 2 and AP 3 weapons, does that mean there's no more difference between glancing and penetrating hits? I'm asking because if there still is, then a bare D6 roll on a table is much, much faster and reliable than using the super special awesome hyper expensive GW special die and then having to consult the table anyways because you can't just go "4-2". Also, what if dice came with pre-built modifiers to the table? Let's assume AP 1 Munitorum dice already have 2 sides to account for the extra chance of exploding but you score a glancing hit, how do you tell which exploding result scales down to wrecked and which to immobilized or however it is the new damage scales?

Granted, it's a fix as ludicrously easy as to put a small number on a corner of the die face, but it made me wonder if there might be a tiny little chance that I won't have to pick anti-vehicle weapons at all costs on every troop that can take them no matter the other choices or lose automatically.


----------



## SilverTabby

I doubt all skimmers will be able to fly. They are, after all, *skimmers*. They skim. Though there is likely an upgrade you can pay for, like the old engine upgrades that let you fly high. 

I can see vypers and piranhas becoming fliers though, possibly, until the new dexes come in.

As for Sisters, we do have access to the imperial flying transports in IA. I never got any because I thought they looked boxy. Also, Celestine is awesome at taking out troops at present. However, she may have been designed with taking out fliers in mind. We don't know. And my Canoness will certainly be getting more outings if the rules that she and her command group now get are rumoured correctly.

Carnifexes may also see more outings now. Full attacks at S9 / 10? Close range AP2 shooting, followed by the ability to smush terminators in CC? Yes please... 

To be honest, I was always disappointed that terminator armour was made rubbish by 3rd Ed. It used to be 3+ on 2D6, which much more accurately portrayed how awesome it was. Even though I play no armies that have it, I don't mind terminators being so much harder to kill. Of course, a comparative points rise would be nice to represent that, it won't happen anytime soon. They'll still be as cheap as my Warriors. *shrug* 

It also makes me think I may want to convert some Sisters in terminator armour as I can ally in some, but that's for later...


----------



## Pssyche

Intercepting Swooping Hawks may make a comeback.
4+ To Hit with Haywire Grenades...


----------



## King Gary

> Well guys Saturday is almost here: the reveal of project VI!!! And alongside that it's the release of the new storm of iron book; the best of hammer and bolter collection and the new solar macharius book, angle of fire! Some sweet releases, some awesome books, the chance to advance order some amazing limited edition stuff... How am I going to fit it all into one day? With an early open that's how!!! See you lot at 9 tomorrow!!!


Just pulled this of my local GW's FB update. So this means no purchasing of 6th tomorrow? How long do the pre orders usually last, it's a week, isn't it?


----------



## Eleven

Karyudo-DS said:


> On one hand allies seems like a way got get people to buy more just because but at the same time you can't really cry that your codex sucks donkey when you can argument it. I can't fight terminators with banshees anymore (at least not as well as scopions) but I can send terminators with my Eldar as troops


Yeah, why bitch about your xenos codex sucking? Now you can just play SPACE MARIEENS instead!


----------



## Eleven

Mokuren said:


> So... If your army doesn't have pintle-mounted heavy weapons or- let's drop all the pretenses, if you're not a SPACE MARINE a flyer will fuck your day so bad it's like you're facing a mech spam list armed with nothing but laspistols.


Aren't dark lances pintle mounted?


----------



## Zion

King Gary said:


> Just pulled this of my local GW's FB update. So this means no purchasing of 6th tomorrow? How long do the pre orders usually last, it's a week, isn't it?


Correct, just pre-orders for the next week. Release date is 30 June.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Yeah, why bitch about your xenos codex sucking? Now you can just play SPACE MARIEENS instead!


Or you could ally another army in that covers your weaknesses. Like Tau for shooting and Hammerheads paired with Dark Eldar and Incubi or Wyches.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Mokuren said:


> What, there's Eldar players that still field troops in transports? And expect to unload them?
> 
> I thought everyone just went "Eldrad + the bare absolute minimum of the crappiest troop choices and then just mech spam".


Yeah oddly I've never used him. Have him but I enjoy CC over mech, though I've laughed as IG have spent entire turns not killing my wave serpents but if you use a Falcon and don't carry anything you're paying +100 fot a tank that can barely hit the barn let alone any side of it, not worth it to me by itself. Prsims are fun though... Course i don't have a billion dollars to get a all prism/jet bike army 

I was thinking the hit dice simply have different sides to account for the modifiers though, unless they change how the table in a weird way that would prevent a d6. D6s are fine for me though if it's not. I'm just hoping this new system keeps them from dieing instantly but let's you ping them to death anyway at worst before turn 50.

Oh and yeah I agree the allies does add a ton of color to armie ls. Playstyles and literal colors...but with armies they have lots of colors anyway.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> Yeah, why bitch about your xenos codex sucking? Now you can just play SPACE MARIEENS instead!


Or how about using a little imagination? You want something in your army that has terminator armour? Use the ally rules to get a squad, but model them as eldar in super-Heavy armour of some description. Maybe CC wraithguard?

you don't need to use actual SM...


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Or how about using a little imagination? You want something in your army that has terminator armour? Use the ally rules to get a squad, but model them as eldar in super-Heavy armour of some description. Maybe CC wraithguard?
> 
> you don't need to use actual SM...


Wait...you mean people still have imaginations? I thought I was the only one! :laugh:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Wait...you mean people still have imaginations? I thought I was the only one! :laugh:



No, you just imagined that.


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> Or how about using a little imagination? You want something in your army that has terminator armour? Use the ally rules to get a squad, but model them as eldar in super-Heavy armour of some description. Maybe CC wraithguard?
> 
> you don't need to use actual SM...


It might just be me, but I don't like bringing units that no one knows what they are. I find it rude personally. I like to know what everything on the board is.

I hate it when games are being played and these landspeeders are ravagers, while those landspeeders are raiders with flicker fields and those kroot with no arms are incubi, but this battlesuit is a grotesque. The rest is wysiwyg, except that all of the ones that are painted purple are holding dark lances. Got that?

I see that you guys have no problem with fielding terminators with your eldar, or 'balancing' the armies that they made weak on purpose by allowing you to take units from armies that they made OP on purpose, but that's not really cool with me.


----------



## Mokuren

Eleven said:


> Aren't dark lances pintle mounted?


Maybe? I never checked, it's never been relevant until Flyhammer.



SilverTabby said:


> Or how about using a little imagination? You want something in your army that has terminator armour? Use the ally rules to get a squad, but model them as eldar in super-Heavy armour of some description. Maybe CC wraithguard?
> 
> you don't need to use actual SM...


You know I would totally do sisters in terminator armour, but since I _occasionally_ like to attend a tournament or two, mostly as an excuse to play with different and faraway people, I wonder how much the WYSIWYG rule will get in the way of that.

... I admittedly should worry about that in any case since I intend to field an allied IG with next to no GW infantry models, but still...



Zion said:


> Wait...you mean people still have imaginations? I thought I was the only one! :laugh:


SSSSSH! Not so loud! You will alert the GW police!



Eleven said:


> I hate it when games are being played and these landspeeders are ravagers, while those landspeeders are raiders with flicker fields and those kroot with no arms are incubi, but this battlesuit is a grotesque. The rest is wysiwyg, except that all of the ones that are painted purple are holding dark lances. Got that?


I don't mind a bit of proxying, but someone that fields something like that better be ready to have me ask "What was that again?" every 30 seconds.



Eleven said:


> I see that you guys have no problem with fielding terminators with your eldar, or 'balancing' the armies that they made weak on purpose by allowing you to take units from armies that they made OP on purpose, but that's not really cool with me.


As I stated before, I like allies for the variety factor, the part where I am practically forced to do so because I have to keep up not just with codex creep but also with edition creep does piss me off as well.

And I will repeat it again: I am deathly afraid that this will be an excuse to leave armies GW doesn't care about deep in near-squat territory for even more years as they give update priority to all of the SPACE MARINES.


----------



## Eleven

Mokuren said:


> As I stated before, I like allies for the variety factor, the part where I am practically forced to do so because I have to keep up not just with codex creep but also with edition creep does piss me off as well.
> 
> And I will repeat it again: I am deathly afraid that this will be an excuse to leave armies GW doesn't care about deep in near-squat territory for even more years as they give update priority to all of the SPACE MARINES.


The last part is very very true. I could totally see that happening. It's funny we all got excited when we thought they were adding chaos cultists to the CSM book, but now it's more likely that the chaos cultists model is ajust an alternative IG model. Not sure if I'm liking that or not. It's probably a good thing since no doubt they would make the cultists suck in the CMS book. At least the cultists will be able to be melta vets now, lol.

Giving Chaos the ability to play with IG and daemons makes me think they will probably put chaos on the back burner and come out with dark angels, and who knows, maybe IG, and Space marines before chaos. I'm still hoping chaos is next though.


----------



## Mokuren

Eleven said:


> Giving Chaos the ability to play with IG and daemons makes me think they will probably put chaos on the back burner and come out with dark angels, and who knows, maybe IG, and Space marines before chaos. I'm still hoping chaos is next though.


Chaos is supposed to come out on August, or July at the earliest, and has been in the back burner for a while considering it's supposed to be the BIG BAD GUYS codex.

Granted, they _have_ to be inherently inferior to SPACE MARINES in every field and at every opportunity, but at the very least they're the sort of army they can't just squat or leave rotting for more than one edition.

It's not like they're sisters, where they can pull out a crappy WDdex out of their ass and go "Here, have fun 'till 2078, losers".


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Much bitterness on the boards about all the support GW gives SM players. I just paid for my Rulzbook and should have it next friday ... :biggrin:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Pfft, nothing wrong with Eldar having a small Deathwing squad, or other marine units. Its not like Eldar don't work fine by themselves, they just take more numbers. Throwing a few marines does break the specialist mentality with a couple generalist units but that by itself is hardly game killing... Also makes more sense than using my orks.

Then again I've played DA since 3rd so if you don't like Marines in general...to bad  Though DA has been a negligected army balance experiment...


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> It might just be me, but I don't like bringing units that no one knows what they are. I find it rude personally. I like to know what everything on the board is.
> 
> I hate it when games are being played and these landspeeders are ravagers, while those landspeeders are raiders with flicker fields and those kroot with no arms are incubi, but this battlesuit is a grotesque. The rest is wysiwyg, except that all of the ones that are painted purple are holding dark lances. Got that?
> 
> I see that you guys have no problem with fielding terminators with your eldar, or 'balancing' the armies that they made weak on purpose by allowing you to take units from armies that they made OP on purpose, but that's not really cool with me.


I am in no way advocating 'filling in weaknesses'. I hate minmax lists. What I am advocating is ways to expand a themed army in new and interesting ways. I am also not advocating proxying, I'm suggesting converting and remodelling. 

For example, the terminators in an eldar list. Say you play Iyanden and want a wraithguard army. You have your farseers and warlocks, you have your wraithguard and your wraithlords. Then you have a specialist warlock in a heavy wraithbone battlesuit (using Belial's rules) and a squad of heavily armoured wraithguard carrying hammers and shields (and are fearless as wraithguard should be). Modelled right, there should be no problem with telling your opponent "those are Belial and a squad of terminators, rules-wise" and them being able to remember it. Tournament usuable? More than likely not. But then, I hate tournaments :wink:

I am not saying fill your army with the stuff it's missing, but there's no harm in adding a little individual flavour. If the weapon loadout on a model is recognisable, and the level of armour is appropriate, where's the harm in friendly matches...?


----------



## davespil

I'm not a fan of Allies at all. I know some codexes are weaker than others but still not a fan. I wish that they'd ballance the codexes. And I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I like what they have done recently for the most part. I thought that the 'nids were under whelming and the rest of the non-Marine armies need more wargear options. But on the whole they are starting do better in the codex department and 6th ed sounds like its gonna have a lot more strategy. They just need to get through these codexes faster. They had plenty of time between 5th and 6th to give exery army a new book.


----------



## Barnster

I honestly think allies should be left for apoc games only. The only exception being CSM and Cdeamons, simply because they should have 1 codex. Oh and my GK storm troopers can now have a Valkyrie as well

If GW says hey chaos you can have cultists just take an imperial guard squad I'll be rather annoyed

Some armies have certain weaknesses, but that's fine, the fun of finding a good list is knowing your strengths and weaknesses and over coming them


----------



## SilverTabby

davespil said:


> They just need to get through these codexes faster. They had plenty of time between 5th and 6th to give exery army a new book.


Only if you ignore the fact that GW also run two other systems, released both Dreadfleet and Space Hulk and have a writing team in single figures of people. 

Disregard all that and they had plenty of time :wink:


----------



## davespil

SilverTabby said:


> Only if you ignore the fact that GW also run two other systems, released both Dreadfleet and Space Hulk and have a writing team in single figures of people.
> 
> Disregard all that and they had plenty of time :wink:


Five years is PLENTY of time! They need to hire more writers. Only having a few writers isn't justification for how few codices they put out, its justification that they don't have enough people doing the job!

Seriously, get a 40K crew together and write 3 codices a year. Throw in an expansion every year and a big rule book every five years and you're good to go. With the amount of war games out there and the size and respect that GW has it can grab some writers from other games. Its clear they need a dedicated team of rule writers anyway. As a Technical writer myself, I'm amazed that GW continues to function the way it does. It doesn't seem that they're in trouble financially, hire a few more guys to get the codices done. More codices = more money.


----------



## SilverTabby

davespil said:


> Five years is PLENTY of time! They need to hire more writers. Only having a few writers isn't justification for how few codices they put out, its justification that they don't have enough people doing the job!
> 
> Seriously, get a 40K crew together and write 3 codices a year. Throw in an expansion every year and a big rule book every five years and you're good to go. With the amount of war games out there and the size and respect that GW has it can grab some writers from other games. Its clear they need a dedicated team of rule writers anyway. As a Technical writer myself, I'm amazed that GW continues to function the way it does. It doesn't seem that they're in trouble financially, hire a few more guys to get the codices done. More codices = more money.


The more people working on one thing you have, less *less* internally balanced it will be. Too many cooks, and all. It's bad enough that management weigh in. I personally agree more guys would help take the stress off them (and boy, do they get stressed) but I also think adding more people in wouldn't help the game.

But this isn't the place for this discussion. This thread is for KEEN!


----------



## Vanchet

From what i saw in WD
Snipers can allocate shots if they get a 6 to hit
Jetpacks move 2D6 stead of 6
and hull points are in (land raider for example has 4)


----------



## Bindi Baji

SilverTabby said:


> The more people working on one thing you have, less *less* internally balanced it will be. Too many cooks, and all. It's bad enough that management weigh in. I personally agree more guys would help take the stress off them (and boy, do they get stressed) but I also think adding more people in wouldn't help the game.


Things also haven't been helped by the fact GW lost a few people mid codex/armybook in the last couple of years


----------



## SilverTabby

Bindi Baji said:


> Things also haven't been helped by the fact GW lost a few people mid codex/armybook in the last couple of years


Yeah. We'd've had a proper Sisters Codex by now if Andy hadn't gone. He was assigned it 5 years ago... *snif*


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> The more people working on one thing you have, less *less* internally balanced it will be. Too many cooks, and all. It's bad enough that management weigh in. I personally agree more guys would help take the stress off them (and boy, do they get stressed) but I also think adding more people in wouldn't help the game.


huh? what makes you think that. If they had more people throwing more ideas and more people cross working on multiple codices at once things would be more balanced not less.

Having 1 guy and a few helpers working on a codex over here, and another 1 guy and his helpers working on a codex over there is the kind of thing that causes balance issues.

Also having too few people limits variety of thought. Look at all the cool ideas come out of the community vs how few good ideas come out of gws 5 authors. It's because we have them outnumber 10,000 to one.


----------



## GrizBe

All the 6th ed stuff is now up for pre-order on teh website!


----------



## Zion

GrizBe said:


> All the 6th ed stuff is now up for pre-order on teh website!


So is a teaser video in the blog!

Here's what I gathered from the video and the pictures from the blog post:

Hull Points - "Every vehicle has a number of hull points indicating how much damage it can take before it is destroyed." So I'm guessing it works like wounds, but there wasn't anything listed on that bit about if they can be insta-killed.

Flyers (there was a bunch here but I'm only going to list the stuff I could read all of so I don't misinterpret anything):
Aerial Support - "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves."

Zoom - "If a Flyer Zooms it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36"."...."A Zooming Flyer can never voluntarilly move less than 18"." (If it somehow is forced to during it's movement phase it is destroyed)..."Zooming Flyers can make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degress before moving."...."Zooming Flyers can not Tank Shock or Ram nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed."...."Zooming Flyers can use up to four weapons if moving at Combat Speed or Cruising Speed."..."Zooming Flyers cannot be Assaulted."

Additionally the new rulebook is about 2", putting it at roughly the same size as the Fantasy one.

And both glancing and penetrating hits against armor exist, but how they work were not shown.


----------



## MrPete

Maybe i'm reading too much into this so forgive me, but perhaps GW is giving a little subtle hint as to the contents of the 6th starter? 

Scrolling through the main page for the rulebook, the Dark Angels section of the book is featured. Chaos stuff is also shown. And the collectors edition has an interchangeable Aquilla/Chaos Star on the leather bag.

Perhaps a hint, in a kind of "nudge nudge wink wink" fashion?


----------



## Obinhi

Hey when was the GW preorder posted? I'm looking at local time and its been the 23rd in the uk for a good 2 hours now.

Also are there going to be any midnight relesed anywhere? I know my local game shop is having a tourniment that day but it'll be 5th ed rules as this event was planned ages ago.


----------



## Kelann08

Eleven said:


> huh? what makes you think that. If they had more people throwing more ideas and more people cross working on multiple codices at once things would be more balanced not less.
> 
> Having 1 guy and a few helpers working on a codex over here, and another 1 guy and his helpers working on a codex over there is the kind of thing that causes balance issues.
> 
> Also having too few people limits variety of thought. Look at all the cool ideas come out of the community vs how few good ideas come out of gws 5 authors. It's because we have them outnumber 10,000 to one.


Except too many people can mean to many ideas. The way the design system works is pretty consistent across games, be they tabletop or video. Parceling the work is typically the most efficient way to do it. Especially in a realm like this where some people gravitate to certain armies. I seriously doubt that everyone works on their own, no one checks it and then you end up with unbalanced armies. There's going to be one guy overseeing all of it and everyone likely sits in a large group from time to time to discuss how it all works. Silver may be able to speak to this more readily and accurately.



MrPete said:


> Maybe i'm reading too much into this so forgive me, but perhaps GW is giving a little subtle hint as to the contents of the 6th starter?
> 
> Scrolling through the main page for the rulebook, the Dark Angels section of the book is featured. Chaos stuff is also shown. And the collectors edition has an interchangeable Aquilla/Chaos Star on the leather bag.
> 
> Perhaps a hint, in a kind of "nudge nudge wink wink" fashion?


Doubtful. They also showed Tyranids and Eldar in the video. Chaos was a brief flash. Space marines, as no doubt one of a few posters is bound to rant about, were the most seen. There wasn't really anything that screamed "Dark Angels and Chaos!!!" The two pins for the bag are the two most recognized symbols in all the game. Eldar, Tau, Tyranid, Dark Eldar, Necron - none of them really have a faction defining symbol, hence it was logical that those two would have been used for the bag.



Obinhi said:


> Hey when was the GW preorder posted? I'm looking at local time and its been the 23rd in the uk for a good 2 hours now.
> 
> Also are there going to be any midnight relesed anywhere? I know my local game shop is having a tourniment that day but it'll be 5th ed rules as this event was planned ages ago.


No midnight releases in the Dallas area. I don't imagine many US stores would have them. Totally different environment for the hobby across the pond (I really wish I could get my wife to let us move...).


----------



## Zion

Obinhi said:


> Hey when was the GW preorder posted? I'm looking at local time and its been the 23rd in the uk for a good 2 hours now.
> 
> Also are there going to be any midnight relesed anywhere? I know my local game shop is having a tourniment that day but it'll be 5th ed rules as this event was planned ages ago.


It's already up for pre-order. You might need to clear your cookies and try the site again.


----------



## Kelann08

I don't have a fullsize 5E rulebook - was the rules section in color for that one? I know my old 4E isn't. It looks amazing. That's a lot of ink and having actual pictures instead of hand drawn diagrams will make for a more enjoyable read.


----------



## Obinhi

Zion said:


> It's already up for pre-order. You might need to clear your cookies and try the site again.


Oh I can see it just fine, but it went up on the 22nd here (obviously) I was just wondering if there was any special timeing for it or anything. I did not see anything so I wanted to make sure nothing flew over my head. Sorry about the confusion.

With all of the new rules and ways of doing buisness, I hope my orks get a codex by 2013, you know unless the myans are right.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

I think the Mayans had the next Ork Dex pencilled in for 2017....


----------



## Obinhi

normtheunsavoury said:


> I think the Mayans had the next Ork Dex pencilled in for 2017....


Oh good, well at least its planned then right! God I am so pee my pants excited about his ed. I really am going to expand my collection with the allies stuff. Adding my Russes to say a Black Templar force sounds pretty nice to me right now.


----------



## capnmoe

Ok so I just watched the new vid with some of the rules in it. Did Multi-lasers really need a nerf. They lost their AP6 lol. Come on now.


----------



## Kelann08

capnmoe said:


> Ok so I just watched the new vid with some of the rules in it. Did Multi-lasers really need a nerf. They lost their AP6 lol. Come on now.


I'm thinking GW may have revamped AP as we know it. All we've heard so far is info on AP1, 2 and 3. I have yet to see anything AP 4, 5 or 6. The vehicle damage dice are listed as "AP 1, 2, 3". Now you've noticed where the rulebook has removed an AP 6 designation. 

There's a good chance they've redone the system in a new fashion to incorporate hull points and CCW.


----------



## capnmoe

Kelann08 said:


> I'm thinking GW may have revamped AP as we know it. All we've heard so far is info on AP1, 2 and 3. I have yet to see anything AP 4, 5 or 6. The vehicle damage dice are listed as "AP 1, 2, 3". Now you've noticed where the rulebook has removed an AP 6 designation.
> 
> There's a good chance they've redone the system in a new fashion to incorporate hull points and CCW.


Rewatched it. I believe you are correct. There's nothing listed other than AP 1,2,3,- in the chart.


----------



## maddermax

Watch it in full screen, has some interesting glimpses of the rules


New vehicle types: Chariot, Heavy, Flyer (of course) and Hover

Flyer rules: Zoom is 18-36" (crusing and combat speed), and flyers can fire up to 4 weapons at FULL BS while zooming, and cannot be assaulted afterwards. Downside is that flyers can only make a 90degree turn before movement, and have to go straight after that. They can also go off the table and return the next turn, as we've heard before, which will be useful if you want to keep zooming around, to keep your flyer protected.

Also, flyers suffering an immobilised result has to move at the same speed it had been going. If it's destroyed, a large blast template scatters from it, and hits with Str 6. Anyone inside a destroyed transport flyer takes a ST 10 (well, MEQs won't care as long as they don't have an instagibbed expensive character, but IG and Orks will be worried about that), and are placed inside the blast marker. 

Also, theres a little bit on Allies - they come in levels. Allies of convenience, whichever level they might be, treat eachother as enemy models, who cannot be targeted (including by psychic powers) or assaulted. That'll stop quite a bit of the allied shenanigans, though far from all of them. It'll also be good for the Imperial forces, as they'll probably have a lot more Brothers-in-arms allies (which probably have better synergy) than any of the Xeno races.

Few other bits and bobs, mostly stuff we've heard before like Psyker levels and


----------



## Kelann08

maddermax said:


> Flyer rules: Zoom is 18-36"


I'm not sure if it makes a substantial difference to your point, but I wanted to mention that the exact wording is 18" = combat speed, 36" = cruising speed. That may be a significant designation. It also may not.


----------



## Eleven

capnmoe said:


> Rewatched it. I believe you are correct. There's nothing listed other than AP 1,2,3,- in the chart.


but all the weapons on the chart are also listed at 1,2,3 and - in the current edition so that doesn't mean anything at all.

However, if they did away with AP 4, 5, and 6, that would be really amazing for xenos armies. That's why I doubt it's happening, but I can hope.

scratch that. multi lasers used to have ap 6 huh. Well, that could be a really good thing. Orks getting to use a save in shooting?! MADNESS!

I couldn't see them changing the AP system for troops a great deal from the way it is now, so all in all, this seems like a pretty good buff to Armor 4 5 and 6.


----------



## Zion

Kelann08 said:


> I'm not sure if it makes a substantial difference to your point, but I wanted to mention that the exact wording is 18" = combat speed, 36" = cruising speed. That may be a significant designation. It also may not.



There are other rules too concerning ramming, tank shocking and assaulting Zooming vehicles too. I covered as much as I could clearly verify from the video here (I also added it to the first post).

Got to love GW filming in HD. It makes it a LOT easier to try and see what's in the books (same goes for the pictures).


----------



## Kelann08

Eleven said:


> However, if they did away with AP 4, 5, and 6, that would be really amazing for xenos armies. That's why I doubt it's happening, but I can hope.


I don't think it so much "doing away with AP 1,2,3" as it is revamping the AP system. 

Alternatively, they may have just said "AP 4, 5, 6 weapons are kind of pointless. It either penetrates like it means something or not at all." If you think about it, designating a difference of 6 degrees of armor penetration seems to be fine tuning things a bit too much. This would mean its the exact same system, but all penetrating weapons 4 or more are now AP-. It would counter the nerf to FNP nicely.


----------



## maddermax

Kelann08 said:


> I'm not sure if it makes a substantial difference to your point, but I wanted to mention that the exact wording is 18" = combat speed, 36" = cruising speed. That may be a significant designation. It also may not.


Indeed, though you're forced to go at least 18" a turn, and it seems it makes no difference in terms of weapons fire, so it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference that I can see (might be parts in the rest of the rules that affect it).



At any rate, full speed 18-36" a turn, firing 4 weapons at full BS, can't be assaulted, immobilised results don't stop it... flyers seem to be pretty hard targets. Add in whatever evasive is (did hear in another rumour that it's a cover save, possibly 5+?), and the ability to fly off the board if needed (so if you did evasive manovers, fly off the board in the turn you'll only be firing at BS1, come back in next turn), and they're going to be extremely pesky to get rid of.

Bets that Eldar Star Engines simply become an upgrade for allowing their tanks to get a zoom move?


----------



## Eleven

maddermax said:


> Indeed, though you're forced to go at least 18" a turn, and it seems it makes no difference in terms of weapons fire, so it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference that I can see (might be parts in the rest of the rules that affect it).
> 
> 
> 
> At any rate, full speed 18-36" a turn, firing 4 weapons at full BS, can't be assaulted, immobilised results don't stop it... flyers seem to be pretty hard targets. Add in whatever evasive is (did hear in another rumour that it's a cover save, possibly 5+?), and the ability to fly off the board if needed (so if you did evasive manovers, fly off the board in the turn you'll only be firing at BS1, come back in next turn), and they're going to be extremely pesky to get rid of.
> 
> Bets that Eldar Star Engines simply become an upgrade for allowing their tanks to get a zoom move?


Might be an early call, but I think you are massively underestimating how hard it will be to effectively use a flier when it has to move in a straight line and can only make 90 degree turns and also HAS to move at least 18. To say the least, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of getting used to.

I'm loving this rule, it encourages 5 steps ahead skilled gameplay.


----------



## Kelann08

Eleven said:


> Might be an early call, but I think you are massively underestimating how hard it will be to effectively use a flier when it has to move in a straight line and can only make 90 degree turns and also HAS to move at least 18. To say the least, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of getting used to.
> 
> I'm loving this rule, it encourages 5 steps ahead skilled gameplay.


Zoom rule is a choice though, not required. It can move normally if it wishes to (though I don't see why you would since you can still fire four weapons having moved 36").


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Might be an early call, but I think you are massively underestimating how hard it will be to effectively use a flier when it has to move in a straight line and can only make 90 degree turns and also HAS to move at least 18. To say the least, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of getting used to.
> 
> I'm loving this rule, it encourages 5 steps ahead skilled gameplay.


AND fliers HAVE to start in Reserves.


----------



## maddermax

Eleven said:


> Might be an early call, but I think you are massively underestimating how hard it will be to effectively use a flier when it has to move in a straight line and can only make 90 degree turns and also HAS to move at least 18. To say the least, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of getting used to.
> 
> I'm loving this rule, it encourages 5 steps ahead skilled gameplay.


Indeed, they will be hard to use, no simply ducking around the backs of enemy tanks for the lower armour, having to plan out your next move in advance, and all that. 

However, my assertion was that they were going to be very pesky and difficult to get rid of, and that's definitely going to be true. Expect that evasive save to come up a lot, as people duck off the board, then come back in the next turn to line up another shot.



Kelann08 said:


> Zoom rule is a choice though, not required. It can move normally if it wishes to (though I don't see why you would since you can still fire four weapons having moved 36").


It's required. It says "flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom." Also, I really don't like the way that sentence is worded, don't know why, but I think it'll just be missed by some people, as it sounds like a description rather than a rule. Might just be me.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> AND fliers HAVE to start in Reserves.


making that reserve psychic power critically epic.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> AND fliers HAVE to start in Reserves.


making that reserve psychic power critically epic.


----------



## Kelann08

maddermax said:


> It's required. It says they're normally only allowed to use a zoom move in the rules.


Okay, I see that now. It just seems odd to me that they call it a "special move". Why not just call it "moving" and say "flyers have an 18" combat and a 36" cruising speed"? They also make several references to a "zooming flyer" like it is different from a non-zooming flyer (which implies its moving in another fashion). Units can also not disembark from a zooming flyer which seems to imply that there's alternative form of movement a flyer can make that will allow you to disembark (though the alternative may also be implying a stationary flyer).

The whole thing is worded like zoom is "special", not baseline movement.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> huh? what makes you think that. If they had more people throwing more ideas and more people cross working on multiple codices at once things would be more balanced not less.
> 
> Having 1 guy and a few helpers working on a codex over here, and another 1 guy and his helpers working on a codex over there is the kind of thing that causes balance issues.
> 
> Also having too few people limits variety of thought. Look at all the cool ideas come out of the community vs how few good ideas come out of gws 5 authors. It's because we have them outnumber 10,000 to one.


In general, one 40k codex is worked on at a time. If there is an overlap, it's at the begining or tail end. Writing is mostly done by one person. The rest of the team help with playtesting it against all the other races, boss keeps an eye on it in overview. 

This way, it's kept balanced against the other races, and major faults can be picked up on. In later stages, the rest of the studio gets to playtest too, and anything tru'y broken gets jumped on (usually). 

Now, say instead you have 3 people working on 3 codeces all simultaneously. Suddenly there's multiple changing possibilities going on, fewer people concentrating on balancing one list, and 3 books for the boss to keep track of under tight deadlines. As things get changed post-games, there's more chance it will be unbalanced against another race, especially one that's being changed at the same time. 

It may seem strange to someone who hasn't worked there, but the way it's currently done does ensure some semblance of balance. 

The ideas part is why I was so keen to encourage talking to GW. The community does has good ideas, but studio staff don't read forums, they don't have time or the inclination after finishing work.


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## SilverTabby

Another point that you're not taking into consideration: a codex comes with model releases and a colour section. So the sculpting team needs to double, if not triple in size to meet demand, and 'eavy metal has to double at least too. Suddenly the studio is very cramped, and needs to expand. It's crowded enough already...

GW doesn't make enough money to pay for a studio 3x the size it is now...


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## Magpie_Oz

Rather than take ideas off the Internet and sell them back to the community, which I think would be business suicide, maybe GW can set up a Virtual Studio and have their teams work from home? It would obviate the need for a bigger building.

I work like this, granted what I do is a lot more condusive to virtual officing.


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## Sethis

For everyone saying "Eldar fliers, omg" then you don't need to worry.

We're going to get exactly the same as Dark Eldar - a single plastic kit (possibly 2 if we get a second wave). It's called the Nightwing Interceptor.

Falcons, Prisms, Vypers, Night Spinners et al will stay as Skimmers. We just get the 1-2 flyers, same as everyone else.

I have to admit that the "can only turn 90 degrees thiing" is a pleasant surprise - 40k hasn't had degrees of turn for a long time, and it's a nice check on the power of flyers, especially if it must be done at the START of the move and not the end. Stops someone running 36" down the flank and getting auto-side armour shots.

However expect to see Eldar/(Dark Eldar?) getting a vehicle upgrade that allows them to turn at any point in their movement - in keeping with the "maneuverable as fuck" fluff. I hope.


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## Words_of_Truth

Does anyone know what a stormbird looks like? I really want a flyer in my crusade era army and I think the stormbird or some other form of flyer apart from the thunderhawk.


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## MadCowCrazy

*Flyers*

*Aerial Support*
Flyers must being the game in Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

*Flyers and Measuring*
Flyers have flying bases that suspend them above the battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer's hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of the Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when:

-The Flyer is being assaulted, in which case the models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.

-Models are embarking or disembarking from the Flyer, in which case the base of the Flyer is used as the Access Point.

*Flyers and other Models*
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

*Zoom*
Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds making it very difficult to shoot down, but limiting its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and Cruising Speed of 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18". If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

To represent its limited manoeuvrability, a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves. Thereafter, it must move directly forwards in a straight line. In a turn in which a Flyer enter the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again. A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassible terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassible terrain. Finally, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

*Zoom, Tank Shock and Ramming*
Zooming Flyers cannot Tank Shock or Ram nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed.

*Zooming and Shooting*
Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.

*Assaulting Zooming Flyers*
Due to their high speed (and presumably high altitude)...
Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted.

*Leaving Combat Airspace*
It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will....
the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens
the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters
Ongoing Reserves (see page 125). A Flyer that leaves combat
airspace must Zoom back on when it returns from Ongoing
Reserves, even if it has the Hover type.

*Flyers and Damage Results*
Zooming Flyers follow the exceptions given below.

*Locked Velocity*
If a Zooming Flyer suffers an Immobilised result, its velocity is
locked. A Flyer with Locked Velocity cannot change speed
for the rest of the game, but must continue to Zoom at
Combat Speed or Cruising Speed (whichever it was using when
it suffered the Immobilised result). Once a Flyer's velocity is
locked, it cannot Evade and cannot move Flat Out, however
with Locked Velocity you can still turn before it moves as normal
and if it leaves the board will enter Ongoing Reserves.

*Crash and Burn*
If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, its flaming hull
rains down on the battlefield. Centre a large blast marker
over the Flyer - it then scatters 2D6". Any models under the
blast marker's final position suffers a Strength 6, AP- hit. The
Flyer is the taken off the board. If the Flyer is also a transport
any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves
allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the
marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that
cannot be placed are removed as casualites.


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## MadCowCrazy

*Allies*
Unforeseen alliances happen all the time in the murky world of Warhammer 40,000. The Eldar might assist the Tau in destroying a Tyranid invasion, knowing that if they don't the vassals of the Hive Mind will destroy a Craftworld. An Imperial Guard general might hire Orks of the Bloodaxe clan, little realising that his Chaos Space Marine enemies have already struck a similar arrangement with the selfsame greenskins. The possibilities are endless! From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up entirely new tactical possibilities, making your already formidable force even more so.

*Levels of Alliance*
Of course, in the grim darkness of the far future (where there is only war), it's a sad fact that very few armies trust one another entirely - if a all. A labyrinthine history of grudges, wars, campaigns and betrayals (intentional or otherwise) have the....

*Allies of Convenience*
The tides of war can often throw unlikely allies together
forcing them to work in common cause for a time. Such
alliances seldom last for an entire battle, let alone a campaign
but that brief while can be sufficient for immediate ne...

Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy
units that cannot be charged, shot, targetted with psychic
powers or have templates or blast markers placed over.
However, if a psychic power, scattering Blast weapon or other
ability that affects an area hits some of these Allies of Convenience
they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units. This
means that, for example, Allies of Convenience units:

-Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied ch...
-Cannot be joined by allied Independent Characters


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## SilverTabby

Magpie_Oz said:


> Rather than take ideas off the Internet and sell them back to the community, which I think would be business suicide, maybe GW can set up a Virtual Studio and have their teams work from home? It would obviate the need for a bigger building.
> 
> I work like this, granted what I do is a lot more condusive to virtual officing.


And people complain *now* that lists 'aren't playtested'. Can you imagine how it would be if the writers worked from home?

Their dept is set up so that they can get up from their desk and be right next to a gaming table. They can lean over and ask someone "what do you think of this?" Get them working from home and the talking and playing stops...


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## slaaneshy

Anyone able to confirm what the force org is for allies?


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## Zion

Nice find MadCowCrazy. I take it you were more into squinting and staring at the screen while copying down the info than the rest of us.

I've added it to the first post.


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## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Nice find MadCowCrazy. I take it you were more into squinting and staring at the screen while copying down the info than the rest of us.
> 
> I've added it to the first post.


Or I just increased the quality to 720..... :crazy:


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## Arcane

slaaneshy said:


> Anyone able to confirm what the force org is for allies?


WD shows an example of 1HQ, 1 Troop and 1 Elite or Heavy. Safe to speculate that taking 1 HQ and troop unlocks an elite, fast or heavy choice. This may be the maximum limit for balance purposes. Also the level of cooperation between the allied factions may alter the available FOC.


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## Doelago

Anyone who knows if the Imperial Guard can ally with Chaos Space Marines and/or Chaos Daemons?


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## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Or I just increased the quality to 720..... :crazy:


Touche. I deal with an internet connection that gets pants when I try that so I didn't even try that. I had it on fullscreen and took notes but every time I'd click to my other monitor to take notes it shrinks so my notes were a bit short but covered the big details.


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## maddermax

Zion said:


> Touche. I deal with an internet connection that gets pants when I try that so I didn't even try that. I had it on fullscreen and took notes but every time I'd click to my other monitor to take notes it shrinks so my notes were a bit short but covered the big details.


The Screen Print button was invented for a reason 




































/Still props to MCC for typing it out.
//You might need to right click and hit View Image to see the flyer one at it's full res, so it's easier to read.


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## SilverTabby

I would be amazed if they couldn't. I personally think you're more likely to see "chaos can take traitor guard" than "Guard can take Chaos allies", but I don't know if the tables are that intricate.


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## Zion

maddermax said:


> The Screen Print button was invented for a reason


That tends to work poorly for me with FLVs.


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## MadCowCrazy

maddermax said:


> The Screen Print button was invented for a reason


That tends to come under the scrutiny of CopyRight Infringement though....

But since it's a public video there might be a slight slight minuscule change the frothing daemon lawyers of GW wont send out size and desist letters...


You can't copyright rules so if I type them out it's safer than if I just print screen as they might claim a picture or other art falls under copyright...


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## GrizBe

Reading through the Zoom rules, seems like a big improvement on the Necron Supersonic rules... can defiantely see that getting FAQ replaced.


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## aboytervigon

My guess is chaos can ally with imperial guard and the next codex will have some rules for allied guard..


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## Bayonet

Anyone have a guess at how Hull Points will work by the way? Will they be 'wounds' for vehicles so to speak? If so would a Rhino have 3 HPs and say a Raider have 3 HPs? or would HPs just be for 'Tank' class vehicles? 

Also if they acted as wounds does this mean deep striking meltas or powerfists 1 shotting tanks be a thing of the past? Or will certain APs negate the HPs entirely?

Theories on a post card!


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## GrizBe

Okay.. sorry if its been mentioned and i've missed it.... but the imagery of the 4 marine heros.... Am I right in thinking that the one in all silver bears the markings of the Silver Skulls chapter? Just wondering why he'd stand alongside the likes of the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and the White Scars unless we're getting some huge new fluff sections?


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## Sethis

GrizBe said:


> Okay.. sorry if its been mentioned and i've missed it.... but the imagery of the 4 marine heros.... Am I right in thinking that the one in all silver bears the markings of the Silver Skulls chapter? Just wondering why he'd stand alongside the likes of the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and the White Scars unless we're getting some huge new fluff sections?


I figured he was a Grey Knight. Nemesis Sword, GK style helm, Book on his Pauldron...

I like the S10, No Armour Saves allowed for being caught in an exploding flyer. Finally something that penalises Marines just as much as Xenos...


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## GrizBe

Sethis said:


> I figured he was a Grey Knight. Nemesis Sword, GK style helm, Book on his Pauldron...


I figured that too until I watched the last vid and got a better look. Defiantely a skull on the shoulder pad and it looks like the Silver Skulls icon... That and they're armed with boltguns rather then storm bolters... and a bunch of other things that say they're not actually grey knights... no =I= symbols etc...


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## Karyudo-DS

GrizBe said:


> I figured that too until I watched the last vid and got a better look. Defiantely a skull on the shoulder pad and it looks like the Silver Skulls icon...


I would call that a Silver Skull emblem, teeth and all. They're all silver and sans-storm bolter. At first he did look GK but with Marines around him Silver Skulls would make more sense.


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## GrizBe

Karyudo-DS said:


> I would call that a Silver Skull emblem, teeth and all. They're all silver and sans-storm bolter. At first he did look GK but with Marines around him Silver Skulls would make more sense.


Just done some research and it kinda makes sense... the Silver Skulls are meant to be the most sucessfull of the second founding chapters and their home system is next to the Malestrom, which is a naturally occuring warp rift where Huron Blackheart opperates out of.... soo, there is some logic in including them since Chaos is meant to be the big bad again.


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## Adramalech

Oh. Look. More space marines in the artwork, 'cause we OBVIOUSLY aren't force-fed enough of 40k's pretentious poster-boys already.


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## pantat

Bayonet said:


> Anyone have a guess at how Hull Points will work by the way? Will they be 'wounds' for vehicles so to speak? If so would a Rhino have 3 HPs and say a Raider have 3 HPs? or would HPs just be for 'Tank' class vehicles?
> 
> Also if they acted as wounds does this mean deep striking meltas or powerfists 1 shotting tanks be a thing of the past? Or will certain APs negate the HPs entirely?
> 
> Theories on a post card!


My guess is it will be something like the apoc vehicle damage sheet. A 'wrecked' loses a hull point and a 'wrecked - explodes' loses a hull point and a reroll? Or something along those lines! So yes it would limit deepstriking meltas. Pretty annoying when a 5 pt gun melts the shit out of a 250pt land raider!


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## Words_of_Truth

What's everyone looking at?


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## Necrosis

pantat said:


> My guess is it will be something like the apoc vehicle damage sheet. A 'wrecked' loses a hull point and a 'wrecked - explodes' loses a hull point and a reroll? Or something along those lines! So yes it would limit deepstriking meltas. Pretty annoying when a 5 pt gun melts the shit out of a 250pt land raider!


That would make vehicles far to strong. More likely every-time you take a pen or glancing hit you lose a hull point. Each turn all hull points (or a hull point) may be restored or something like that.


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## the_barwn

GrizBe said:


> Reading through the Zoom rules, seems like a big improvement on the Necron Supersonic rules... can defiantely see that getting FAQ replaced.


Would it be possible for a flier to ram another flier? Just thinking along the lines of your fliers pretty well beaten up & wants to go out in a blaze of glory & rams your opponants intact flier


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## darklove

Necrosis said:


> That would make vehicles far to strong. More likely every-time you take a pen or glancing hit you lose a hull point. Each turn all hull points (or a hull point) may be restored or something like that.


I think it might be a certain number of AP1-3 glancing or penetrating hits, regardless of the damage chart result. The reason I think this is because of the way Gauss will work - glancing hit = -1 Hull Point.


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## MadCowCrazy

You guys might want to take a look at THIS...


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## Words_of_Truth

Is this the image everyone was looking at?










because there's also the Crimson Fists, Mortifactors, Howling Griffins, Scythes of the Emperor. I believed the top two lines are under first founding, while the bottom two are under second founding.


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## pantat

Necrosis said:


> That would make vehicles far to strong. More likely every-time you take a pen or glancing hit you lose a hull point. Each turn all hull points (or a hull point) may be restored or something like that.


Yes agree too strong but i think that might make it too easy? Although would be more realistic. The regen of it probably wont happen based on the batreps in the WD



darklove said:


> I think it might be a certain number of AP1-3 glancing or penetrating hits, regardless of the damage chart result. The reason I think this is because of the way Gauss will work - glancing hit = -1 Hull Point.


This could be interesting. Especially with the munitorum dice things that have an ap1,2&3 damage dice.


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## pantat

MadCowCrazy said:


> You guys might want to take a look at THIS...


Haha how did i guess that blood angels and necrons would be allies? :grin:


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## pantat

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is this the image everyone was looking at?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because there's also the Crimson Fists, Mortifactors, Howling Griffins, Scythes of the Emperor. I believed the top two lines are under first founding, while the bottom two are under second founding.


I think its the collectors edition fold out thing.


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## Necrosis

pantat said:


> Haha how did i guess that blood angels and necrons would be allies? :grin:


Every page is actually the same (just remove the army you pick).

Edit: Nvm I was wrong.


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## Words_of_Truth

MadCowCrazy said:


> You guys might want to take a look at THIS...


*Black Templar Allies:* Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Eldar, Grey Knights, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Sisters of Battle.

*Blood Angels Allies:* Black Templars Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Eldar, Grey Knights, Tau, Necrons and Sisters of Battle.

*Daemons Allies:* Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau

*Chaos Marines Allies:* Daemons, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar

*Dark Angels Allies:* Black Templars, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, Tau, Necrons, Orks

*Dark Eldar Allies:* Eldar, Black Templars, Chaos Daemons, Chaos Marines, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Tau

*Eldar Allies:* Dark Eldar, Tau, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Orks, Sisters of Battle

*Grey Knights Allies:* Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar

*Imperial Guard Allies:* Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Daemons, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons.

*Necrons Allies:* Chaos Marines, Grey Knights, Orks, Tau, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves.

*Orks Allies:* Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Tau, Daemons, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Grey Knights, Space Marines, Space Wolves.

*Sisters of Battle Allies:* Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Tau.

*Space Marines Allies:* Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, Tau, Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.

*Space Wolves Allies:* Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Tau, Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.

*Tau Allies:* Eldar, Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, Space Wolves, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle.


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## MadCowCrazy

Alliances on GW website is exact same as in the Double Weeks, so one can assume the level of alliance between them is the exact same as well. Only thing that's different seems to be the bonuses and negatives.


----------



## Necrosis

So basically Nids got screwed over. Way to go GW!


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## pantat

Necrosis said:


> So basically Nids got screwed over. Way to go GW!


Maybe the can have another hive fleet as an ally? So 2 swarmlords? :laugh:


----------



## Necrosis

Imperial Guard seems to benefit the most, as they can ally with everyone but nids.


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## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> Oh. Look. More space marines in the artwork, 'cause we OBVIOUSLY aren't force-fed enough of 40k's pretentious poster-boys already.


Seriously? People need to get over this "I hate Space Marines" thing, because that's what 40k is centered around. Always has been, always will be. It's Mankind vs Everything Else, and the Marines are Mankinds Best. 

Space Marines form the core of the 40k game. Get over it.



MadCowCrazy said:


> You guys might want to take a look at THIS...


Thanks for the write-up, I couldn't get the allies boxes to work.

But yes, Guard would be everywhere. Traitors, slaves, turncoats to the greater good, all are possibilities because humans are weak :wink:


Necrosis said:


> So basically Nids got screwed over. Way to go GW!


Who else here seriously thought the invaders from another galaxy who only want to eat everything would get to ally?

The FAQs might give the option for Hive Fleets to ally together, so don't worry, you too may well be able to have 4 slots in everything plus an extra HQ...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

We've hit 50 pages once again, want me to reset the thread or should I leave it be?


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> Who else here seriously thought the invaders from another galaxy who only want to eat everything would get to ally?
> 
> The FAQs might give the option for Hive Fleets to ally together, so don't worry, you too may well be able to have 4 slots in everything plus an extra HQ...


I don't know, maybe organizations who have been infiltrated by gene-stealer cults? Or maybe some Inquisitor found a rare psyker who could control Tyranids that were cut off from the hive mind. Or insert any other story players can come up with.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

MadCowCrazy said:


> We've hit 50 pages once again, want me to reset the thread or should I leave it be?


If you do please transfer the list I wrote up, after I did all that work


----------



## pantat

Necrosis said:


> Imperial Guard seems to benefit the most, as they can ally with everyone but nids.


And tau too



SilverTabby said:


> Seriously? People need to get over this "I hate Space Marines" thing, because that's what 40k is centered around. Always has been, always will be. It's Mankind vs Everything Else, and the Marines are Mankinds Best.
> 
> Space Marines form the core of the 40k game. Get over it.


Well said, completely agree.


----------



## Necrosis

pantat said:


> And tau too


Oh wow, I didn't notice that. Gogo Tau Broadsides with terminators standing beside them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Words_of_Truth said:


> If you do please transfer the list I wrote up, after I did all that work


Even though the picture I posted has the exact same info on it?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Resetting thread, locking it whilst I do this to save people from posting and losing their posts


----------



## Words_of_Truth

MadCowCrazy said:


> Even though the picture I posted has the exact same info on it?


But it took me ages to write it all out!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

New thread continues here : http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112662


----------

