# When the most powerful forces ally, there's no fun to be had



## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

So I really hate to do this, as it is one of my only threads, but I really felt the need to get people's opinion on something. First though, a small rant (skip ahead to get to the meat of the posting):

Why the hell would games workshop allow Necrons and Blood Angels to become Allies? Also, why do the Blood Angels get to use both flyers now if they choose (if they take an ally that can have them, they get both). Seriously, WTF. IS GW TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME SO ONE SIDED THAT WE ALL MUST TAKE THE SAME F'ING ARMY IF WE WANT TO WIN? WHY NOT JUST GIVE THEM INIVINCABILITY AS WELL, THAT'D BE FUN RIGHT?* end rant.

Sorry, but it's been pissing me off ever since I heard about it. Now that that is out of the way, I would like to know what possible combinations people believe would be competitive against a Necron/Blood Angel force. I'm speaking fairly generally, since any allied army build holds multiple options. I realize that there are probably several options, but seriously, I'm having a hard time coming up with any true competitors. Additionally, I realize that most of this is speculative, since there has yet to be a solid list put out of all allowable allies. And particularly since there are new codices on the horizon, which will help balance the game out a bit hopefully. Again though, just wondering what people plan to bring against the ridiculous (and sadly, inevitably super effective) combo that is the Bloody Neco-angels.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

The armies CAN ally yes, but they do so with PENALTIES. They aren't trusted allies, or even on friendly terms. GW only lets you do it so you can build an army that fits a theme. 

You're overreacting to a ruleset you haven't even seen all of yet. You think you can take a chill pill or some Vicoden until the actual rulebooks hit the shelves and we can actually see how good or bad these sorts of things are first?

EDIT: Additionally the current rumors put us at the following:
Allied Detachments MUST consist of one HQ and one Troop Choice from the Allied Army. In addition you can take ONE Additional Troop Choice and ONE choice (non-HQ) from anywhere else in the codex. So at MOST you could have ONE Necron Flyer. And to get it you'd need a Necron HQ choice and a Squad of Warriors or a Squad of Immortals. HARDLY the uber cheese combination you're complaining about.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, sure some people (the must win at all costs brigade) will find cheese lists out of the new allies, and will table people and think they are the mutts nuts.
Is that any different from what people do now with either dumping tanks all over the table or clever combinations of Space Wolves armed to the teeth with heavy weapons?

Despite the great job Zion and MCC are doing in News and Rumours, we don't have access to all the rules yet and until we do we can't make sweeping statements about whether or not the game is broken. 

If anything, I think the allies list hasn't gone far enough, I have a BA successors army slowly on the build (very slowly) and the fluff for them screams out for them to be able to ally with CSM, but they can't despite the chapter being listed in both codexes.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

If what is currently been put forth is true then any time a Necron and BA unit started a turn within 6" of each other they would have to roll a d6, on a 1 those units would sit and pick their noses for that turn. That alone will limit how many of that nature list you will see, alone with what Zion said about it being only 1 unit per FoC slot.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, BA and Necrons can technically take 2 (3 if CCB counts) necron ally flyers, while ba can field 2 (3 if foc are not shared) storm ravens.

Two immortals with Night scythes, or one and a Doom Scythe, alongside possibly a CCB, and then the Storm Ravens.

As for the combo, they have enough fast movement, melta weaponry and anti infantry in the form of cheap transport assault squads in rbacks, and seperate focs for Preds and Baal preds without resorting to needing a tesla arc, or a doom scythe to do the job for them. 

An Elysian List however, would benefit from taking some allies with some heavier firepower. Even if just normal Guard squads.

I would like to see some Guard backing up offensive armies. 50 man blob, with lascannons and massed chimeras supporting special and heavy weapon teams. Put a SM chaplain in to make it fearless, and ld10 and it is going nowhere. Supported by multiple techmarines and a camo cloak commisar general, and you have a stealthed 2+ cover save blob on an objective that is only going to move by close combat, while it has multiple power weapons and fists hidden inside.

As for the other units, depending on how squadrons work now, you can take 3 valks or vends to support, or even 3 leman russ.

Can you imagine 3x 6 th/ss terms inside valks popping out 6 ordnance blasts a turn, before dropping on an enemy objective? While the Thunderfires herd and round up enemies before lasplas rbacks put holes in harder vehicles.

Ouch.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Unless you're using Necrons to sit and shoot and BA to assault. Then they should never come within 6".


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I just don't see it being the world is ending issue that many are making it out to be. There can at most be 1hq 2troop 1elite 1FA and 1HS from the ally codex. All this would cost points and you have to take 1hq 1troop to do it. The more you do the ally route the more it is going to dilute the points allocated to your army choices, so it will be a huge balancing act. I think just the points limiting factor alone will help prevent too many insanely stupid combinations.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Well, BA and Necrons can technically take 2 (3 if CCB counts) necron ally flyers, while ba can field 2 (3 if foc are not shared) storm ravens.


If you're paying enough points to do that then the opponent has more than enough to shut it down. 

Balanced lists will always beat out cheese lists in the end. Cheese armies only have power until people learn the trick and then they're nowhere near as good.



scscofield said:


> I just don't see it being the world is ending issue that many are making it out to be. There can at most be 1hq 2troop 1elite 1FA and 1HS from the ally codex. All this would cost points and you have to take 1hq 1troop to do it. The more you do the ally route the more it is going to dilute the points allocated to your army choices, so it will be a huge balancing act. I think just the points limiting factor alone will help prevent too many insanely stupid combinations.


What I've seen around has put it at a cap of 1HQ, 2 Troop, 1 Other (non-HQ). Which is even more limiting and requires a balancing act to do right (unless you ally Marines with Marines then it won't be nearly as bad).


----------



## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

@Zion: While I haven't seen all the rules yet (as mentioned), that's not what I'm pissed about. Or about the fact that you can take allies. I'm ticked off that this particular set of allies is allowed (especially since, as @norm mentioned, CSM and Blood angels makes more sense, as do several other combinations). The fact that Tyranids can't ally with anyone (apparently) and yet Necrons can, makes little to no sense to me. Following that with allowing the current two best* (it's an opinion) armies ally with one another seems like they’re just giving superman more powers (he doesn't need any more, he's already super enough). It’s stupid, and unnecessary. Finally, considering the retort you posted regarding my opinion, you think you’d answer the question as well.

@norm: You are certainly correct; people will always find ways to abuse the rules. This isn’t much different. Again, it just seems like such an obvious and easy thing to remedy, particularily since there are so many other good options to consider (hell, even Nids/Necrons makes more sense. Necrons could lure them to a planet to fight a force they were having trouble with, and since they (Necrons) are non-organic, Nids shouldn’t really bother them to much). I realize that they play test these forces, but it still seems like they overlooked this when they wrote it, and left out other good options as listed above. Not saying the whole idea is broken, just parts of it (based on what I know, which is admittedly limited)

@Vaz: Makes sense to me. I was thinking that a Guard list backed by the Grey Knights would be fairly solid. As you listed, they could very easily offer a good choice for a strong force. I didn’t even think about how a Chaplin or Libby could help a large guard force to hold together better. Should be interesting…

@Iron Angel: Exactly my point, which should make for an army that can wipe most others off the board with out to much trouble. Not a big fan of that becoming reality.


----------



## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

I've been building up an Ork Freebooterz army list, when the allies rule leaked, I was actually happy, since theoretically, I can now do a nearly full fluffy list. 

It's now possible for me to take a Possessed Warphead (Ork Weirdboy "possessed" [for a relative value of possessed] by a Chaos Demon), the Stormboyz of Khorne, Ork Chaos Renegade Warband (with Ork aspiring champion), or human mercenaries (IG--I'm thinking of painting them up as a Gorkamorka Diggaz mob). 

Rather than just having them for looks, I now have the option to use the actual CSM, CD, or IG codices.

Still can't do an Ork-Genestealer cult, but I'm happy with what is now possible.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Zion said:


> If you're paying enough points to do that then the opponent has more than enough to shut it down.
> 
> Balanced lists will always beat out cheese lists in the end. Cheese armies only have power until people learn the trick and then they're nowhere near as good.
> 
> ...



The WD Chaos army had a troop, hq, elite, hs ally army Zion. The things I have seen suggest its 1hq 1(2)troop 1elite 1fa 1hs


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

CPT Killjoy said:


> @Zion: While I haven't seen all the rules yet (as mentioned), that's not what I'm pissed about. Or about the fact that you can take allies. I'm ticked off that this particular set of allies is allowed (especially since, as @norm mentioned, CSM and Blood angels makes more sense, as do several other combinations). The fact that Tyranids can't ally with anyone (apparently) and yet Necrons can, makes little to no sense to me. Following that with allowing the current two best* (it's an opinion) armies ally with one another seems like they’re just giving superman more powers (he doesn't need any more, he's already super enough). It’s stupid, and unnecessary. Finally, considering the retort you posted regarding my opinion, you think you’d answer the question as well.


Necrons have at least allied with someone in their codex, Tyranids just eat them or die to them. Of the possibilities a hated ally with Blood Angels is the least stupid thing that could have come out of this (seeing as it lets the people who like that fluff actually play something they like it's less stupid than you think it is. It just makes you look like the "Stop Having Fun" Guy when you tell people that the things they like are stupid because you don't like them). 

Considering the problems that can be caused by the allying of the two armies (can't deploy units from other faction within 6" of each other, that severely limits the way things can move and react. Add in the points limits and poor synergy between the lists and the fact that neither has cheap toys, and the potential for overspending gets ridiculous rather quickly, I don't see big competitive armies made of these two paired up appearing to often. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying that the cards are stacked against them. 

I may have not answered your question about how to beat them or what could be more broken, but I did point out some severe flaws in your logic. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it broken, it just means you don't understand it. If you spent a little time with Google or in our Rumors section you would have seen some restrictions that you weren't considering. 

And for the record: balanced army with synergy and some basic redundancy trumps the imbalanced armies or cheesy builds. Paladin spam and Purifier Spam from Grey Knights has already started to become extinct, and even if someone finds a stupidly powerful build for allies it won't last long before people will learn where the lynchpin is on that list and make it all fall apart.



scscofield said:


> The WD Chaos army had a troop, hq, elite, hs ally army Zion. The things I have seen suggest its 1hq 1(2)troop 1elite 1fa 1hs


Fair enough. I didn't catch that when I was flipping through the WD.


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I know I have pointed it out elsewhere, but HYDRA FLAK TANK. In a pure IG army, given enough money, I could have 9 of the bastards. and with glancing looking like a thing of the past, all I need is maybe 3 good hits per flyer to bring it down, reguardless of what I roll for damager (thank you hull points, see you in hell land raider). Now some people turn a nose up at the autocannon stats, but 12 twin linked S7 shots per turn at a flyer should turn heads. It is only a matter of time before other lists get ground based AA but honestly I have no desire to buy a flyer, and when I do buy one, it will be the dakka Jet just to be an ass.

As for alliances. No one seems to think its a problem that the IG can feild a potential 6 LRs and then damn terminators? No one has an issue with the Tau gunline getting C:SM support of any kind? People look at BA and Necrons and think its the only game in town, I feel like its only the tip of dick here. I for one plan on picking up some second hand assult marines at the FLGS this weekend and saveing my pennies for a codex next month. I have every intention of fielding power armor with my squishy troopers.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Obinhi said:


> As for alliances. No one seems to think its a problem that the IG can feild a potential 6 LRs and then damn terminators? No one has an issue with the Tau gunline getting C:SM support of any kind? People look at BA and Necrons and think its the only game in town, I feel like its only the tip of dick here. I for one plan on picking up some second hand assult marines at the FLGS this weekend and saveing my pennies for a codex next month. I have every intention of fielding power armor with my squishy troopers.


How would you get 6 Land Raiders with the ally rules we're hearing about? Ally with Black Templars and steal their transports (that gets you to 4 btw)?


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Leman Russ Zion. Sorry about that confusiotation. And that 6 number was thinking I would have to share FoC and not get the full 9, this is again assuming I had the 600 and some odd dollars to buy all of them sweet sweet tanks.


----------



## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Zion said:


> How would you get 6 Land Raiders with the ally rules we're hearing about? Ally with Black Templars and steal their transports (that gets you to 4 btw)?


I expect they will limit a lot of "crossover" as well. Like putting terminators in valks or meltavets in drop pods. If they don't, that's a LOT of FAQ work to do. On top of the lengthy project they already have.


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I think I saw something about how you cant share that much in the case of drop pods I think that would end a normal man. It will open up some silly stuff on the first turn, but if you ask me, picking up terminators in a valk and moveing them around that way seems like a waste of a turn.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Kelann08 said:


> I expect they will limit a lot of "crossover" as well. Like putting terminators in valks or meltavets in drop pods. If they don't, that's a LOT of FAQ work to do. On top of the lengthy project they already have.


There is already talk about a lot of limits. We don't have the full rules so far but it looks like that only armies that are on good terms for allying will even benefit from special rules, no word yet on sharing vehicles.


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh god, I just had a brain wave...40man IG blob with FnP...I dont care if its only 5+ thats the same as our armor! BRING ON THE BLOOD CHALACE!


----------



## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Obinhi said:


> Oh god, I just had a brain wave...40man IG blob with FnP...I dont care if its only 5+ thats the same as our armor! BRING ON THE BLOOD CHALACE!


I don't think the special rules cross over, otherwise.......Vulkan is going to be the sickest special char in the game...


----------



## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Ya but if that matrix holds true and the idea that 'Brothers in Arms' allows rule cross over that would be super sweet. I can see my already pain in the ass blobs going to the level of 6 year old pain in the ass.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Alright, time to use praetorians as BA.


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Even if Blood Angels can share the affects of the Sanguninary Priest with Brothers in Arms, Praetorians will never benefit from Descent of Angels. As Necrons and BA are an unholy alliance, no abilities will transfer. Furthermore, both page 23 and page 62 of C:BA clearly state that only Blood Angel units get DOA. Even a Brother in Arms allied Space Marine could not use the rule. The Blood Angels are just that good at flying.


----------



## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

man how sweet would it be if orksies and nids were allies 

i would be shitting my pants on the receiving end of that assault phase


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Vulkan wont allow non codex sm to have special melta/ th stuff, required giveing up combat tactics or whatever that sm rule id to get his special


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Whats also exciting is this is literally just the beginning, these are the allies and flyers and combos that we have available NOW, what goodies will be available in a years time? or two? as codexs evolve so will the units available, maybe we will see an ork flack waggon or plastic eldar firestorm? maybe a xenos mercs codex? Personally im quite excited by the prospect, i have wanted flyers since they were introduced into the epic rules and allies just makes sense, and like norm and others said, people exploiting the rules and lists for tactical advantage because they must win at all costs is nothing new so why worry? crack on and have fun, if your gaming group is made up of all cheese players then its time to find another group anyway. Personally i like the idea that i can ally my craft world with dark eldar outside of IA11 if i want, i love the DE range but didnt buy any because i didnt want an entire DE force, but now i could pick up a small force. Likewise people who lost there deamons can now have them back for chaos marines, yes it could allow cheese but more important it allows fluffy 40k armies once more and the opportunity to play for fun with models you want to use just for the hell of it so for me its a huge huge plus.


----------



## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Two things strike me in this thread.
First, what size Army are you fielding?
Presumably, your Allies must number less points than your Main Army. And you're considering taking 4/6 Land Raiders at, what? 250 Points each? Allied Contingent at 1,000/1,500 Points and that's without HQ? 
You're moving into Apocalypse territory there.

And secondly, and more importantly. 
Games Workshop's nefarious scheme is working. 
This Edition has already sold many of you a new Army.
In order to field the über-unit you want, you must field an HQ and a Troop. 
So, you buy them to unlock access to your Elite/Fast Attack/ Heavy Support of choice, which you also purchase.
Gosh! If you only add another Troop Unit or two and maybe another couple of Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support options, you've got yourself a new Army that you didn't really want in the first place.

And while there will be those of you who already have both armies, there are many, many more who don't...


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Yep they snared me, been considering DE but now am looking at IG hard to go with my SW.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Pssyche said:


> Two things strike me in this thread.
> First, what size Army are you fielding?
> Presumably, your Allies must number less points than your Main Army. And you're considering taking 4/6 Land Raiders at, what? 250 Points each? Allied Contingent at 1,000/1,500 Points and that's without HQ?
> You're moving into Apocalypse territory there.
> ...


I know those wicked people at GW releasing a new rule set and reinvigorating the game we play and giving us the chance to play with almost endless codex combos and wonderful flying machines, what a set of bastards!!!


----------



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

You guys do get that GW will NOT have you hunted down and shot if you don't use allies don't you?

As BaK says it's just another twist to the story, if you don't want play it that way the first few pages of the rulebook encourage you do your own thing.

I for one am stoked that I can now build Tau to add to my GK.


----------



## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

Obinhi said:


> I have every intention of fielding power armor with my squishy troopers.


I quite like what I've heard about the allies rules, and the potential it brings to the game. However, I was rather hoping that it would encourage power-armoured players to include non-power-armoured allies, rather than adding power armour to almost all the other armies.

There's already too much power armour in 40K, and I'd rather see a bit more variety.

I quite like the idea of a Tau army with a small detachment of [rebel] IG.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You guys do get that GW will NOT have you hunted down and shot if you don't use allies don't you?
> 
> 
> > They won't? that's a relief :biggrin:
> ...


----------



## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

In general I think it is a good thing, especially for people who are thinking of collecting another army or who have already started, they can get a feel for the new force and learn how to use it small scale and build it, and also by seeing its strenghts and weakness. Fluff wise for I.G players having a drop pod with a bunch of marines arrive to help save the day is great or a valkrie with a bunch of storm troopers on a special mission with marines adds lots of flavor, I like it but I'll be keeping it proper fluffy


----------



## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

After reading the verious rumours about Alies, i dont think theres anything to worry about to be honest.
I just had a look at the rules pack for the 40K doubles tourny thats going to be held at warhammer world, and the info for useing alies, and the main thing it states is, Alies CAN NOT useing any special rules of the force there alied to. So SOB or melta vets wont gain from Vulkans special rules.
And looking at the rules, i Belive the rules packs is a sneck pre-view of the allied rules.
But then thats my opinion, and im sure theres poeple out there who will always belive that Alies are op and game bracking


----------



## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Pssyche said:


> And secondly, and more importantly.
> Games Workshop's nefarious scheme is working.
> This Edition has already sold many of you a new Army.


Why do people seem to think the concept of tweaking things to make money is nefarious?


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Gret79 said:


> Magpie_Oz said:
> 
> 
> > You guys do get that GW will NOT have you hunted down and shot if you don't use allies don't you?
> ...


----------



## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Some people assume the ability to take allies will result in everybody taking allies.

This is something that you will need to talk about with your opponent. I bet there will be tournaments where you're not allowed to have allies and tournements which support the deployment of allies.

It just gives you options, and I agree not all those options make sense.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> Gret79 said:
> 
> 
> > Magpie_Oz said:
> ...


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Unless you're using Necrons to sit and shoot and BA to assault. Then they should never come within 6".


I plan on running my first game this way... I'll let you know how effective it actually is or not!



Pssyche said:


> Two things strike me in this thread.
> First, what size Army are you fielding?
> Presumably, your Allies must number less points than your Main Army. And you're considering taking 4/6 Land Raiders at, what? 250 Points each? Allied Contingent at 1,000/1,500 Points and that's without HQ?
> You're moving into Apocalypse territory there.
> ...


I had actually shelved my Necrons (about 850pts) because I realised i needed to invest another £300-£400 to get the 2.5k army I wanted. However NOW I don't feel like I've wasted almost £100 already, as I can now use the Necrons I have alongside my BA and not feel guilty about them just sitting at home on a shelf in a box. Also, it gives me a reason to finish painting that box of Dire Avengers I bought a while back and actually build up my Eldar army too. I for one love the idea of allies just for that reason. I will no longer have any 'wasted purchases' lying around as whatever I buy can be used!


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I am looking at it the same way, I have been holding off buying any other armies besides SW because of the cost to field a decent 1500+ list. This will allow me to piddle with some of the various armies and also allow me to set it up so my daughter can play her GK sooner than my wallet was allowing. She will be seeing some SW allies in the near future.


----------



## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

Very glad to see the direction this thread took. As I said in the beginning, I wasn’t trying to be a downer, but it just occurred to me that allowing the two most powerful armies to combine would result it games that would be much less interesting, and require much less thought (which defeats the entire purpose of the game in my opinion). Based on all of the commentary on this thread though, it seems as though there are several realistic options that will keep the game interesting and fun. In fact, several of the offered suggestions seem like they might even be more competitive than BA/Crons (like say, IG/Grey Knights for example). I still say that BA/Crons makes little to no sense, but whatever. Thanks again for all the great postings. Cheers everyone.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm actually pretty excited to be able to field fateweaver and flamers of tzeentch with my 1ksons. Talk about plugging a hole and being a giant pain in the ass for the enemy (3+/4+ rerollable? yeppp).

Likewise, epidemius with plague marines would be equally as obnoxious (5+ fnp? lol nope try 3+, against everything but double tough).

I'm not entirely thrilled on some of the possible combos that will surface as a result of the allies rule, because I can think of a few dirty ones off the top of my head....and the internet will surely make the best known shortly after release.

That and I don't want to see grey knights/vindicare assassins/psyrifle dreads in every list possible.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Ravner298 said:


> I'm actually pretty excited to be able to field fateweaver and flamers of tzeentch with my 1ksons. Talk about plugging a hole and being a giant pain in the ass for the enemy (3+/4+ rerollable? yeppp).
> 
> Likewise, epidemius with plague marines would be equally as obnoxious (5+ fnp? lol nope try 3+, against everything but double tough).
> 
> ...


Somehow I don't think we are going to see every possible list peppered with Grey Knights. Yes Space Marine players may take them, but those uninterested in the Emperor's finest? After all if you play Guard or Tau or Orks why would you suddenly want Grey Knights? You've already decided that you want a shooty army or a funny force, so why would you suddenly be overcome by a need to field the elite of the elite?

Personally I see a good number of people not so much using allies to plug gaps in their armies but instead boosting their own strengths. Berserkers with Bloodletters for example or Hammerheads in tank heavy Guard lists.


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Well BA/Necrons IS in the fluff of both codices. Not just randomly decided. The bit that was written by Ward :laugh: :angry:


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I can't pretend to predict how this will go among the gaming community, but thinking back to second Ed when allies used to exist a few things stand out.


Most tournaments and leagues I knew about didn't allow allies even though they were in each codex. 
Personally I tend to prefer the older % basis for army selection, but the foc is better at restricting allies and preventing power gaming foolishness. 
Finally, back in the proverbial day - we looked askance at _Anyone_ bringing allies. It was a crutch then and I bet it will be seen as a crutch now.


----------



## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

That seems sound. If you can't build an good army out of one, smashing two together could be considered a cop out. I don't think it will be too bad overall though. Again, I'm not against the idea of allies entirely, but Necrons/Blood Angels just kills me. It really feels forced. CD/Eldar anyone?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

That is the main issue I am having with thinking of how to do allies, its a lot of points invested in them that would take from what I could field with main army.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> Somehow I don't think we are going to see every possible list peppered with Grey Knights. Yes Space Marine players may take them, but those uninterested in the Emperor's finest? After all if you play Guard or Tau or Orks why would you suddenly want Grey Knights? You've already decided that you want a shooty army or a funny force, so why would you suddenly be overcome by a need to field the elite of the elite?
> 
> Personally I see a good number of people not so much using allies to plug gaps in their armies but instead boosting their own strengths. Berserkers with Bloodletters for example or Hammerheads in tank heavy Guard lists.


You seem to be forgetting that there are WAACs out there who don't care about fluff, and just want to win.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The main issue many seem to be forgetting is those allies are not free. I can not trim my list enough to field a basic troop, hq combo and still have the units I want to have in my current list. To do allies I am going have to rebuild everything and it will not be as strong as a list because of that. I will have to invest too many points in allies to keep the strong core I built in my list.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> EDIT: Additionally the current rumors put us at the following:
> Allied Detachments MUST consist of one HQ and one Troop Choice from the Allied Army. In addition you can take ONE Additional Troop Choice and ONE choice (non-HQ) from anywhere else in the codex. So at MOST you could have ONE Necron Flyer. And to get it you'd need a Necron HQ choice and a Squad of Warriors or a Squad of Immortals. HARDLY the uber cheese combination you're complaining about.


Just on a side note, the WD batlle report has more than that allowance in the allies section. It's not ONE choice from elsewhere, unless they screwed up their lists. :wink:

And my allies choices aren't broken, I've gone for what's pretty. All bar the dragon / vendetta has been built for years...


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

scscofield said:


> The main issue many seem to be forgetting is those allies are not free. I can not trim my list enough to field a basic troop, hq combo and still have the units I want to have in my current list. To do allies I am going have to rebuild everything and it will not be as strong as a list because of that.  I will have to invest too many points in allies to keep the strong core I built in my list.


Exactly. 

I'm playing a game with my friend on sat and i've been trying to write a list with BA/necrons at 1500pts. Really hard to try and get any balance and i'm pretty sure it wont do well but doing it anyway to see.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> You seem to be forgetting that there are WAACs out there who don't care about fluff, and just want to win.


Right, but what can Grey Knights really give to an army that Tau Railguns or Guard Leman Russes can't? Grey Knight bring Terminators with AP3 weapons. Woopie. Hardly a power build. And because the Grey Knights don't have many (if any) Trusted Allies they can't benefit from rules most of the armies have, nor can they share them.

You want to see some power builds, look at Blood Angels with a Jumping Death Company with IG support (killer close combat with long range firepower and Objective holding) or Tau paired up with Dark Eldar (Long Range Firepower mixed with fast moving shooting that can nuke whatever doesn't die to the Tau Shooting or can be geared to be a strong CC portion of the army).

There are good builds there based around balanced armies that take allies to fill gaps in their lists or build a strong theme over "spam shiny Terminators."

Grey Knights aren't a threat like they were a few months ago. We've worked out the lynchpins to their spam builds and honestly they're not that exciting. I'm more interesting in seeing what people do outside of the supposed cheese lists of "Spam Grey Knights".


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

:goodpost:


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

How about an army of plague marines with epi, giving them all 3+ fnp (against all weapons save double tough), 2+ to wound at range and in CC, and all attacks ignoring armor saves?


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

That's *if* special rules cross over...


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> That's *if* special rules cross over...


I think (apparently) that they do if you are 'battle brothers'


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

pantat said:


> I think (apparently) that they do if you are 'battle brothers'


We'll still have to see if FAQs address how this will work, and if it applies to Plague Marine Bolters.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The sad part about armies like CSM finally getting access to IG and the like is that marine armies have to pay a gimp tax in crap infantry to get access to their juicy elites and heavies.

The armies that really benefit are those with garbage HQ's, and troops like guard and the like as taking MeQ troops to grab objective and defend your line is something they would have willingly paid points for, unlike 100-150 pts of useless corpses to get at the nice looking tanks and heavy weapons of the tau or IG.


----------



## Kecyre (Jun 25, 2012)

Being a new player I like the idea I can field Gk and Necrons. They were the two armies that were battling it out to be my first army. But now I can finally have Paladins and Canoptek Wraiths!


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> The sad part about armies like CSM finally getting access to IG and the like is that marine armies have to pay a gimp tax in crap infantry to get access to their juicy elites and heavies.
> 
> The armies that really benefit are those with garbage HQ's, and troops like guard and the like as taking MeQ troops to grab objective and defend your line is something they would have willingly paid points for, unlike 100-150 pts of useless corpses to get at the nice looking tanks and heavy weapons of the tau or IG.


Forcing you to pay for that is what keeps the balance in there. You can't just take random stuff from a codex, you have to take an actual portion of that army. If you build with a plan though it won't really be all that much of a deal though. So you get non-combat troops in Guard, you also get a wall of guns, extra heavy weapons and objective sitters that won't shift easily.


----------



## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> The sad part about armies like CSM finally getting access to IG and the like is that marine armies have to pay a gimp tax in crap infantry to get access to their juicy elites and heavies.


This is the best part about the allies rules as stated.

If you're not interested in having some of the allied armies troop choice, then having allies is unlikely to make any sense. This is one way in which they have constructed the rules to try and make sure that people are creating alliances for the right reasons, rather than just to create powerful game-winning combinations.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Wait, Luke, are you calling Guard infantry weak?

What about having a squad sitting on your objective, 5 cheap transports mounting a heavy weapon lying around free, fearless, with Stealth, containing at least 5 Power Weapons/Fists, as well as having easy access to mass heavy weapons?

Alternatively, you can just take a suicidal Meltavet and Command Squad containing 7 BS4 melta weapons, for less than 200 points, allowing you easy access to a Vendetta/Leman Russ/Hydra/Manticore.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Zion said:


> We'll still have to see if FAQs address how this will work, and if it applies to Plague Marine Bolters.


I'm willing to bet they FAQ tally to effect nurgle daemons only, not "followers with the mark of nurgle"


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I am contemplating how much my DW would benefit from a Leman Russ. As much as it saddens me that armies can now 'hotfix' their glaring weaknesses (incase of DW, lack of numbers)... truly themed/fluffy battles/campaigns can now happen.

However, knowing my luck I will come up against the sole person at the club who plays to win.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Wait, Luke, are you calling Guard infantry weak?
> 
> What about having a squad sitting on your objective, 5 cheap transports mounting a heavy weapon lying around free, fearless, with Stealth, containing at least 5 Power Weapons/Fists, as well as having easy access to mass heavy weapons?
> 
> Alternatively, you can just take a suicidal Meltavet and Command Squad containing 7 BS4 melta weapons, for less than 200 points, allowing you easy access to a Vendetta/Leman Russ/Hydra/Manticore.


They are weak for armies that take them as allies with 1 unit in a transport with a worthless HQ. So yah they are pretty damn weak in that sense.

Honestly though I don't really see why a guard army wouldn't take marines allies just for the troops. However I can think of 3-5 reason why my marines wouldn't waste points just to open up access to guard units.

Fact is other then 1-2 cheap heavy weapons guard troops and HQ's have very little to offer most CSM. Keep in mind I like tight symmetry in my armies deployment and function so throwing any pts at the two allies CSM's most associated with them just doesn't suit any possible army build I can think of for my marines. I mean daemons and guard seem more like liabilities for a lot of CSM builds than a asset. However with the new CSM book coming up and the other changes brought by this edition it is hard to tell how things will pan out in the long run till I have the book in my hands, but I expect to see far more guard and tau armies taking MeQ back up then vice versa.


----------



## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

wait till you played it then judge


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

You can just stick them on a backfield objective.


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

How about a grey knight army with Mephiston. In fact any marine army with Mephiston. Probably the only way to get a power armoured top level pysker.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

humakt said:


> How about a grey knight army with Mephiston. In fact any marine army with Mephiston. Probably the only way to get a power armoured top level pysker.


Allied HQs can't be named ICs. On top of that Grey Knights can't share powers (or benefit from) psychic powers since they don't have any trusted allies (AKA Battle Brothers). 

And with fairly strong psykers in the army why would you really need ANOTHER psyker?


----------



## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

Imagine taking Logan as a Allied HQ with wolf guard in terminator armour as troops, that would be boss  Although if you can't take named IC then i guess you can't do that


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Then of course, there could be a points limit.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Iron Angel said:


> You seem to be forgetting that there are WAACs out there who don't care about fluff, and just want to win.


Oh I'm not disputing that WAACs as you call them will do so, I just think they might do it differently to GW's take Grey Knights suggestion.


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Kecyre said:


> Being a new player I like the idea I can field Gk and Necrons. They were the two armies that were battling it out to be my first army. But now I can finally have Paladins and Canoptek Wraiths!


That could be a nasty combo, except one of them would be in very limited numbers. If you take Grey Knights with Necron allies you get one squad of Wraiths max. If you take Necron with GK allies you get one squad of Paladins because you can't take Draigo to make them Troops based on Zion's post that I quoted below. In either case you are going after some pretty pricey units that will decrease the number of models you are fielding.



Zion said:


> Allied HQs can't be named ICs. On top of that Grey Knights can't share powers (or benefit from) psychic powers since they don't have any trusted allies (AKA Battle Brothers).
> 
> And with fairly strong psykers in the army why would you really need ANOTHER psyker?


That is a nice condition that allied HQs have to be generic HQs. Having 3 named HQs while pricey could create some god combos. An example being the DE and Eldar alliance fielding Rakarth, Sliscus and Eldrad.


I think people are going about the allies build in the wrong way. Everybody wants Terminators or tough armoured tanks. But 40K is about quantity of shots, not quality. If you make your opponent roll enough dice they will start to fail saves, even 2+. So adding an IG Platoon to some Marines not only gives them something extra to hold Objectives but also gives you volume of firepower, something most Marine builds lack. Adding Tesla Immortals to a force gives you high strength quantity as well, for those who can ally with Necrons. Forget the power units. Just yesterday, my squad of ten Tesla Immortals(170 point Troops) scored 18 hits on an enemy unit. For those who don't know, the Tesla Carbine only fires one shot but for each 6 rolled you get 2 more hits. The potential for this S 5 gun is staggering, especially when overwatching. Quantity is better than Quality.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

New information seems to point towards no limits on named Hq. Does state they can not share transports though. I am currently leaning towards getting Sammael and converting the set of bikes I had for my SW to a Ravenwing unit. Having him, the 6 bikes, atk bike, and a speeder are a nice boost to whatever else I will field in my SW list.


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

scscofield said:


> Vulkan wont allow non codex sm to have special melta/ th stuff, required giveing up combat tactics or whatever that sm rule id to get his special


It isn't only units with Chapter Tactics to give up that get the TL or MC stuff though. The units that have CT lose it but the entire army gains the benefits.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Would that apply to units that didn't have it to begin with though. That was the point I was making, like giving pain tokens to units without Power From Pain. Up until this point Vulkan only was available to lists that all the units had CT.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Ha!

Vulkan and Fire dragons?

yessir!


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc....none of those have Combat Tactics. Yet they all gain the TW/MC benefits. All units in Vulkan's army gain it. It just wasn't written with Allies in mind, which makes sense since it was 4 years ago.


----------



## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

DeathKlokk said:


> Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc....none of those have Combat Tactics. Yet they all gain the TW/MC benefits. All units in Vulkan's army gain it. It just wasn't written with Allies in mind, which makes sense since it was 4 years ago.


One would expect that, if the Game Developers want to, that is the sort of thing they will address in the 6th edition FAQ.

Of course, with the new flyer rules, new psyker rules, and so on, there is potentially a lot to include in a FAQ, so it's entirely possible they will miss a few things in the first wave. A nice polite letter to the studio will hopefully see outstanding issues resolved in due course.


----------

