# How do you beat Eldar with Blood angles



## snarsnik and gobbla (Oct 4, 2011)

I have a friend who plays Eldar and the normal result when we play each other is that he tables me. It has started to become less fun as we know the outcome of the match before it even starts: I might kill a few units before my entire army is destroyed. He changes his list every time I play him so I can only ask you to help with the units he keeps:

DARK REAPERS: :ireful2: These f**ckers kill a unit a turn and he is good at choosing the unit that is most of a threat. He has his Farseer with this squad so he will fortune and guide them every turn. There is nothing I can do against them his tempest launcher with crack shot stops me using cover and means that the rest of the dark reapers only have to kill around three men. 

Guardians: he kits these guys out with a bright lance to snipe my tanks. While they sit on their objective (if there is one) they almost always kill my transports and then focus their attention on my Vindi. If I get near them he fires his guns and charges me decimating my squad. 

Harlequins: These dudes run across the battle field killing whatever they can see. He has veil of tears (Solitare?) and a Troop master leading these guys. There sheer amount of rending attacks mounted with the fact that I cant really shoot them until they're within charging range makes them a huge annoyance. 

This is the Core of his army he keeps almost every battle with the rest he add different yet great units: Dire avengers in a transport with prince Yriel, Autarchs of all shapes and sizes, Scorpions, 2+ cover snipers you name it he has it. In conclusion what are good units to add to my army that could help against this list


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, not knowing what you're using doesn't help, but, really - I don't know why you're suffering so much.

Bright Lances aren't really particularly good anti-tank weapons, they're overcosted and underpowered.

In addition, those Guardians have a 12" range on their Catapults, BS3, it's only S4, and you get your armour save... Unless he's taking about 20, you shouldn't be losing a significant number of Marines to that...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

You cant beat eldar they are simply unstopable they are the chuck norris of 40k


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Librarians will trip up the psychics with their hoods. Use jump assault squads with a priest and get the first charge. You'll crush Eldar in CC. Deep strike to tie up the Guardians early. Eldar are all about finesse and synergy. Get them off their game plan and you can clean them up without too much trouble. Sitting back and absorbing all their powers and shooting will get you killed every time.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You still get FnP against Dark Reapers, so I don't see how you're losing so many guys. I've only fought Reapers once before, and although they wiped out a Devastator Squad with Librarian, it was only due to poor rolls and judgement on my part.

I'd go with the advice given, take some Assault Marines with a Sanguinary Priest. When they charge, they get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. They're still not the greatest unit ever, but they're adequate for your purposes. Guardians and Assault Marines have the same threat range - 18" - but Assault Marines need only one or two guys to hit that in order to be effective; if one Guardian succeeds in his goal, it's 2 Str 4 shots at AP 5. Not scary, I'm sure you'll agree.

For killing any Infantry, any Infantry at all, go for a Furioso Dreadnought with Talons. It has NO trouble killing off a squad of 5, and I've seen them liquidate hordes upon hordes of Boyz or Gaunts. The same logic will apply to Guardians, I'm sure. This could also be a good counter to any HQ he has, as the high number of Str 6 attacks are almost assuredly going to get in a hit and cause ID.

I don't have experience with BA, but the Baal Predator looks promising - either with a Flamestorm Cannon (outflank + AP 3 *will* kill Dark Reapers) or the Assault Cannon (although in this case I'd probably Scout move it forwards to get in the 24" range).

I've faced Harlequins once or twice, and honestly can't suggest a BA counter for them. I used Lash of Submission to arrange them into an almost perfect flamer-template shape and then dropped a Heavy Flamer on them, but I'm aware that Blood Angels have no such power. Any powerful Flamer weapon will probably work, but you really want something with a good threat range to avoid Veil of Tears. If I had BA, I would drive a Rhino 6", disembark 2", and then rapid-fire/flamer them (Harlequins are a bugger to kill with Meltas, Plasma, Power Fists etc. as they have an Invulnerable, but massed attacks mess them up as the save, although Invulnerable, is still pretty poor).

Hope this helps a little.

Midnight


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I think Midnight pretty much has it, but there is one thing I'd like to add.

If a unit of Dark Reapers is killing off one of your units a turn, would it not be prudent to use a larger squad? 

Reapers kill 5 men per turn ~ Take 10 man squads = Reapers spend 2 turns killing 1 unit, other unit can advance?

Maybe not fashionable with the current trend for MSU, but I'd rather win than be a fashionable loser.

Oh, and my advice for the Harlequins? Land Raider Redeemer filled with TH/SS Terminators. Expensive, but it should go straight through the Harlequins and on into the heart of his army with relative ease.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'd disagree with the idea of TH/SS Terminators vs. Harlequins, actually, as they will almost certainly be charging you, not t'other way round, and they hit with a remarkable number of attacks at Strength 4. As I said before, Harlequins are good at dealing with units that rely on a few high-powered attacks rather than many weaker ones, and Terminators are a good example of this. There's also the danger of killing the Harlequins in an odd number of combat rounds, thusly exposing your Terminators to the Eldar shooting. And one thing Eldar can do very well is saturation of firepower.

But I cannot dispute the wisdom of a Land Raider Crusader 

Midnight


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

5 assault marines with a melta in a razorback w/ Tw.l. heavy flamers costs 130 points. The flamer is death for nearly any eldar unit (harlequins included). Especially when you have multiples


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I'd disagree with the idea of TH/SS Terminators vs. Harlequins, actually, as they will almost certainly be charging you, not t'other way round, and they hit with a remarkable number of attacks at Strength 4. As I said before, Harlequins are good at dealing with units that rely on a few high-powered attacks rather than many weaker ones, and Terminators are a good example of this. There's also the danger of killing the Harlequins in an odd number of combat rounds, thusly exposing your Terminators to the Eldar shooting. And one thing Eldar can do very well is saturation of firepower.
> 
> But I cannot dispute the wisdom of a Land Raider Crusader
> 
> Midnight


I'd say Redeemer over Crusader. Flamestorm > Hurricane Bolters in this instance. And yeah, I see where you're coming from with the high attacks and possible duck hunt after, but isn't this exactly why you take the most survivable unit possible? You could even drop the termies down to 5, and stick a Sanguinary Priest with them for the FnP?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I just prefer Crusaders 

I see what you mean with regard to taking the most survivable unit possible, but that isn't always the same unit - Ork Boyz are a lot more survivable than Terminators against Meltaguns, for instance (point-for-point, of course, not on a model-to-model basis). In this case, the most survivable is something AV13 - I believe that a Furioso can boast such a thing? The reason I say this is that after the Heavy Flamer fun and games, two Harlequins with Kisses did some surprisingly nasty things to my Dread (Immobilised and stunned, not a good position to be in) due to some good Glance rolls.

However, again I am forced to agree with you on your suggestion of a Sanguinary Priest. This is probably just as good an idea as the Furioso (although Rends will still have you take your 3++ or be removed).



> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Harlequins, Attacker Group 2, Attacker Group 3 vs Terminators (with Sang Priest)*
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure how many Harlequins to factor in, but considering the amount of points you'd put into the Terminators AND Priest, I made it 7 plus Master with PW and a Shadowseer. Bearing in mind that this is when the clowns get the charge, assuming they've taken NO casualties, I think that you're in with good chances - on the return strike, the Terminators squish two guys, so you've drawn the combat on which they charge. You'll lose more guys this way, but you're also more likely to actually get into combat with said clowns (Talons Dreads may as well have big 'Shoot Me' signs emblazoned on the sarcophagi).

Midnight


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Hi! 
Ok lets see if we can help you out here. From your original post you seem to be having trouble with the dark reapers. These units are overcosted in the Eldar book and the BA have some of the easiest ways to deal with them. You have FNP and cover saves and availability to many cheap transports... 
As for mobility you have very aggressive and accurate deepstriking jump packs. You have access to great units all round, lots of combat and shooting capability, you should have more guns, more transports and more bodies than him and with some decent target priority and keeping the objectives in mind you should have a better time dealing with them. 

Now, if you really want the best of us here at the wonderful heresy to help you out as much as possible... we need to know what sort of list you play, what point value you play at and what sort of army list, or mission, or what not that you have trouble with. 

Cheers!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

"And one thing Eldar can do very well is saturation of firepower." - This is a common misconception. Eldar are shit, because as Skari outlined above, their units are (almost) universally overcosted or underpowered.

As for the silly type of Land Raider debate - and Raiders are one of the few things Eldar kill better than average at range, due to the proliferation of hideously expensive underpowered Bright Lances. Crusaders that are Immobilised but not destroyed at range still serve some purpose, Redeemers much less so, as the sponsons will never get the opportunity to fire at all.

Don't waste your time making your list worse by including such things as TH/SS and Land Raiders.


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## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

My advice to you is to use my friends idea of a "no setup army" the idea works all on drop pod and deep strike. with the death company and such you can throw him off when its time to deploy an dyou say your done and there is nothing on the field.

Adavtages to this is you put your men where you need them and you will be in shooting range (drop pods) and assualt (from assualt marines) its very unnerving and effect.

Down side is the scatter unless you have something on the board to help with it like a homeing becon or the like then it can be desators to your army too.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

It is just a little sad if he goes with an autarch, gives you first turn and reserves


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> "And one thing Eldar can do very well is saturation of firepower." - This is a common misconception. Eldar are shit, because as Skari outlined above, their units are (almost) universally overcosted or underpowered.
> 
> As for the silly type of Land Raider debate - and Raiders are one of the few things Eldar kill better than average at range, due to the proliferation of hideously expensive overpowered Bright Lances. Crusaders that are Immobilised but not destroyed at range still serve some purpose, Redeemers much less so, as the sponsons will never get the opportunity to fire at all.
> 
> Don't waste your time making your list worse by including such things as TH/SS and Land Raiders.


Whilst I agree with most of your post, there are two points I'd like to raise. First, I'd like to ask when did I say that Eldar were good? I said they can saturate firepower (they can rely upon quantity of Strength 6 rather than a couple of Strength 8 shots, in my experience and with the obvious exception of Fire Dragons, who still saturate firepower... just very, very nice firepower ), but I don't think that they are a particularly good army (again, from personal experience). 

Secondly, and this is probably just me being pedantic, but I'm unsure of 'hideously expensive overpowered Bright Lances'. I was under the impression that if something was described as hideously expensive it was unlikely to be overpowered (Thousand Sons, for example). Don't Eldar usually go for the 'little units of Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents with DAVU Falcons', or am I seriously behind on the times?

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow...what an embarrassing typo...I meant to say UNDERpowered, as I have now edited it to reflect. 

My point was more that people typically associate being able to devastate a target with sufficient firepower means that they army is good - but while Eldar can have more S6 than average, it doesn't really manage to compensate for their massive flaws.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

... Oh. Well, that quite obsoletes my last post. No worries :biggrin:

I quite agree with you, massed firepower doesn't make for a good army (Foot Orks, I'm alooking atcha, and you Fleshborer Hive Tyrannofexen). My point was that Eldar can mass the anti-infantry firepower of the kind needed the wipe Terminators from the board - lots of shots, preferably of a medium Strength (such as Multi-Lasers, Scatter Lasers, or Hydras, but more shots can compensate for lower Strength i.e. Dire Avengers). Hence, Terminators aren't quite as effective when fighting Eldar. Unless, perhaps, they're TH/SS Terminators and you're fighting a themed Iyanden list full of Wraith constructs. But how often do you see THAT army?

Midnight


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

So, let me get this straight TKE... You're saying it's pointless taking Land Raiders of any type, because Bright Lances, which in your own words are overpriced and underpowered, are taken in large numbers and are better than average at killing said Raiders.

Forgive my confusion, but that seems kinda... Self-defeating.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Meh, TKE has it right even if it's not the right reason. The real reason that you don't take Land Raider against Eldar? Fire Dragons.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Grokfog said:


> So, let me get this straight TKE... You're saying it's pointless taking Land Raiders of any type, because Bright Lances, which in your own words are overpriced and underpowered, are taken in large numbers and are better than average at killing said Raiders.
> 
> Forgive my confusion, but that seems kinda... Self-defeating.


Not really...

You shouldn't take Land Raiders of any type, because of several reasons, but the most succinct is this:
Meltaguns.

While the Eldar do few things properly well, blowing up an overcosted Transport with Melta is one of them - and when their otherwise pathetic Bright Lances start becoming better because you've not only wasted a bucket of points, but you've also taken one of the few things in the game their effectiveness against is notably increased? Bad plan.

Recommending a Land Raider specifically for playing vs Eldar is as foolish as recommending Psybolt Ammo on a Stormraven - it might have a benefit on paper, but what you gain is of little value, and certainly inferior to alternative uses for those points.

TL;DR - Never take a single Land Raider for the sake of it, irrespective of foe, and especially not against either type of Eldar, against whom you're improving their inadequate weaponry to bring it into line with appropriately costed armies.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Hmm, I see your point. 

So, what would you suggest those points be spent on? So far I've seen you comment a lot about other peoples ideas being not worthwhile, but not seen your input towards this.

And no, this is not me being a dick, I'm honestly interested to see what you come up with.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

As I said initially, I'd need to see what he's using now to make any worthwhile suggestions.

Broadly though - if he struggles with Dark Reapers, more Rhino-chassis would be my first step. A Transport is a whole extra layer of 'cover' that's incomparable to anything else in the game system.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I agree, not knowing the OP's list does make this a little more difficult. However, from his post we can see that he's already using transports (I'd assume rhino variants) and a Vindicator, which are being sniped by the guardians Bright Lance.

This really puts us back at square one for dealing with the reapers.

However, a thought occurs to me. Perhaps scouts with sniper rifles could be of use? Force pinning tests on both Reapers and Guardians, reducing their effectiveness.

Onto the Harlequins. Have you any suggestions for dealing with them?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I assume he isn't using enough vehicles. A Rhino costs scarcely more than a Bright lance, less when taken for an Assault Squad. Despite that, Razorbacks are the way to go. You know as well as I that Bright Lances at BS3 don't reliably snipe anything under normal circumstances, so suggesting ways to fix this is easy when we know what's being used - it's possible it's entirely tactical issues not list ones.

As for Harlequins - Razorbacks with TLHF are the answer to pretty much anything trying to close with you. Who cares they've an Invul when they pass only 1/3 of the time, and you wound them on 2+? Rending attacks or no, moving vehicles are very difficult to damage in CC.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> it's possible it's entirely tactical issues not list ones.


This is true, I personally find it unusual for this to be quite such a struggle, unless the Eldar player is some kind of tournament pro, or the OP is just hideously unlucky.

As for the razorbacks, I agree. However the threat of melta in the form of harlies toting Fusion Pistols must be kept in mind, so perhaps some heavy bolter razorbacks to engage them at range before melta becomes an issue?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, engaging them at range is too difficult through Veil of Tears. Realistically, they have a 12" threat range with the Fusion, or 9" if they want double-dice, which to be fair they won't need much.

With a Flamer template, you have 8", plus barrel length, plus up to 12" move - you SHOULD be able to get the drop on them more often than not.


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