# Are Necrons Broken?



## The_Nice_Vampire (Jul 26, 2008)

I was having a discussion with my friend the other day who was trying to explain to me why Necrons as an army are broken.

He tried to explain it like this:
When you're fighting a Necron army, you're trying to kill more necrons than there are fielded. For example, when you have a squad of 20 necrons with a lord and a res orb, you end up having to kill 20 +10 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 1 (a grand total of 41 necrons) to destroy the unit.
Therefore the army is broken.

I don't think this was a fair statement (because i am biased) and i want to know if other people also think the army is broken and why, or if it was just my friend trying to scare me out of collecting a Necron army.

Any views?


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## NorthernTau (Jun 24, 2008)

This is case and point of the main strategy that most people use to successfully win against Necrons: keep shooting at one squad until it is fully dead, meaning no We'll Be Back rolls...especially with AP3 or Str 8 weapons. And focus on Necron units (units that have the Necron special ability) and force the Necron army to phase out. Phase out evens it up a bit because it means you only have to kill 75% of the army (or less depending on how many non-Necron units they take..Lith, Pariahs, Spyders, Scarabs, C'tan).

So they are only broken to an opponent that doesn't focus on their weaknesses, which can be said for any army. That said, Necron players that fully utilize units like Spyders and Lith's to give dead squads a second chance at WBB are going to throw a wrench in these strats...which of course can be said about any army.

Broken Necrons are not.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

The whole kill more than are actually fielding thing is balanced out by phase out, which means if the necron army drops below 25% of the original "necron" units on the table, they all withdraw and forfeit the game. So not only do you not need to kill as many as you calculated, Necrons are also punished for taking units without the necron special rule. Further, that's assuming all those necrons actually get their WBB role, which can be negated by death to power weapons, death to high str weapons, and death to sweeping advance (yeah that one's up for debate). The res orb is okay, but can only cover so much area, and prevents you from taking any of your more offensive wargear options. Then you have the gauss nerfing that 5th edition brought, along with the new emphasis on troops, and you have an army that is arguably the most broken in the game, and i mean that in the bad way.


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## Scytherayne (Aug 10, 2008)

Your friend used a circumstantial instance, that was biased towards the Necrons. So, thats already a big wrench in that.

I'd recommend just playing a game against them and form your own opinion. I myself, being a Necron player, know for a fact that we aren't broken. Not by a long shot.

I'd also recommend to get a new friend :laugh:


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Phase Out is a huge weakness for the Necrons. No other army in the 40k needs to be as protective of its basic troops.


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Which is what makes them unique and fun to play. Don't forget the Eldar are similar in that respect. Lose some key Elites and you're boned.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

also it's not like your fighting 41, because only 20 are shooting at you.

that's like saying facing 5 terminators is like facing 9.1666 since 5/6 times they resist the shots on them.. then taking that over and over for each shot...and they do this more than once a turn, but for every shot!!!!

While anoying it is hardly game breaking. I think of it as if they have a 1.5 armour save.
works out similar.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

broken is the wrong word I would call them beardy or slightly over powered.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't think that necrons are broken, or even too beardy. They are powerful pieces true, but you pay for them both with unit cost and with phase out (which has been mentioned). 

Additionally, the units that are most powerful are all size limited. Destroyers (arguably the most powerful Necron unit) are limited to 5 per unit and cost 50 points a model. This makes fielding a lot of them difficult in even moderately sized games.

Necrons are powerful but also very constrained.


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## devilgaunt (Aug 11, 2008)

Has your friend ever played against Plague Marines? They basically do the same thing and they are able to get Meltaguns, transports, and Predators and such. If Necrons are broken because of WBB then I would say the Plague marines are just as broken. There not though. They just are equipped enough to make them competative just like every other race. They have their weaknesses so learn them and exploit them, then when you have tactics to deal with them successfully then maybe his opinion will change.


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## kungfoomasta (May 8, 2008)

necrons broken? really? the new rules hardly effect necrons and seriously the point of necrons being so expensive is because the gauss and wbb they arnt overpowered because they are mostly limited to defensive strategies.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

I used to defend necrons. I used to maintain that they were not broken, and that it was balanced out by the phase out. But. This got changed when I fully comprehended what a monolith did. 

"so wait...if those guys fail their WBB, they get to reroll it at the start of next turn if you just move them back to where your monolith, which is on top of the objective, making it uncontestable? Dude...WTF"

I mean, you consider that a competative list has at least 40 warriors and 1 monoliths (at least) and to phase out, you need to kill 30. Well, as far as I could tell, using my B in GCSE statistics, you need to be killing what is essentially. 83 necrons* to get those 30 dead. Now, I'm aware that only those 40 will be shooting at you, but have you tried killing 83 necrons with 40 shooting you, on top of a monolith and a lord and probably some other things, in just a 1500 point army? 

I used to think about WBB this way - for every WBB roll passed, the necron player has gained 18 points (for a warrior, even more for destroyers/lord/immortals/other) over you. That struck me as unfair that the majority of his army has that.

The reason why I don't consider death guard broken? You can ignore Feel No Pain a lot easier then WBB, they cost a lot more then 18 points for a similar statline, and their guns can't damage my tanks (unless they have a melta, which costs quite a bit more, right?) or my wraithlord. Oh, but necrons can. 

Then you consider what necrons can have besides warriors. They have destroyers, which have a permanent toughness upgrade, meaning I can't instagib them, as opposed to what we get with our bikers, which doesn't help against instagib. Why would that be so? Because they are broken? Could be.

Scarabs - a swarm unit that can move like a jetbike, so yes, they can turboboost. Compare them to rippers with wings (which is the only really comparable thing) and then compare their points cost. Oh, look at that. Rippers are massively more expensive. Then you look at the fact that despite the s3...the scarabs can slowly strip your landraider down. 

I nearly forgot to talk about the tank which can deepstrike into the middle of your battle line - without fear - and then unleash d6 shots at ANY unit within 12" and _also_ has an ordinance weapon. People say it's just as easy to take down as a land raider. WRONG. Two words - living metal. Which means that for me, as an eldar player, my only real chance of killing the sod is a fire prism. Which I don't have, and costs £30 if I _do_ want one. 

A lot of people have told me that I should just kill the lord. SO, here I go. T5, W3 with his 3+ save and 4+ invuln. Then when we get to WBB, if you roll a 5 or 6, he stands up again with 2 or 3 wounds! Consider that he is then hidden in a unit of 20 necrons, and you may see why even taking one wound can be a tricky prospect, let alone getting him to the WBB point.

I understand that this is a fairly unfair ealuation, and that any army can get lucky and completely annhialate the necrons. A lucky lascannon can take the monolith down. The necron player may fail every single WBB roll of the battle, I dunno. What I do know, is that this is so rare as to be negligable when evaluating the necron's capabilities, and that when built properly, a necron list is nigh unstoppable, and even a poorly built list is a tricky army to take down. A stupidly built list is fairly easy to take down, but that's because it's stupidly built.

You may completely disagree with my points. If so, reply. I make no pretence that this is a flawless arguement, but it's how I feel about it. 


*When working this out, I rounded all casualties up, giving the necron player slightly above average luck. Bear(bare?) that in mind when reading this.

Edit: because I was careless and clumsy in a sentence.


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## devilgaunt (Aug 11, 2008)

Have you ever tried to take Necrons in CC or do you just sit back and shoot them? Trading shots with Necrons isnt the best way to go about killing them. Sure it helps but what you really should be focused on is CC. If you can get into CC with the warriors and the Lord attached with some Assault Terminators then that squad is probably not going to survive and when you sweep them the Lord will be lost with the Warriors with no opportunity of WBB. The modifier for your LD in CC in 5th Edition is very dramatic for Necrons cause I can barely get hits in let alone wound with my Necrons so a sweeping advance is a very real thing for Necrons to watch out for against CC specialist like assault terminators. 

I wouldn't say that a stupidly built Necron list has a stupid general guiding it though.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

I find it hard to say that anything with the stat line of a necron is poor in combat, because compared to guardians...well, they cane ass. True, you stick them up against dedicated assault troops and you'll lose, but CC has never been a tactic that has worked for me for a few reasons.
- They still get their WBB (unless you overrun, which I admit is a much more viable option in 5th ed. then it ever was in 4th).
- Half the time, I find my hard hitting CC troops being stranded in the middle of nowhere, after the necrons have teleported or veiled somewhere else.
- I field smaller, weaker units of men, which get killed due to sheer attrition.
-The necron player kills my CC troops(and a lot else too) by deepstriking his monolith directly on top of them

Necrons aren't great at CC compared to say...assault termies. But how many armies are entirely made up of assault troops. Blood angels? Perhaps. But I don't think you can say an army isn't broken by saying it has a weakness. Everything has a weakness.

I think something is broken when you bring along your generic, take all comers list for whatever army, and not really stand much of a chance. If you bring along an army _specifically_ designed to take down necrons, well, I expect you to take down necrons, but equally, the necrons could fairly easily build a list just as good for taking down your anti-necron list. And anyway. What's effective against monoliths these days?

Isn't the jury still out on whether you get WBB on sweeping advances anyway?

Edit - I just remembered - there is a unit that is quite nice for taking 'liths down. Swooping hawks. 4+ to hit in cc against the tank, then 2,3,4,5 glancing, 6 penetrating (I think). Are there any other things though?


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

beenburned said:


> I used to defend necrons. I used to maintain that they were not broken, and that it was balanced out by the phase out. But. This got changed when I fully comprehended what a monolith did.
> 
> "so wait...if those guys fail their WBB, they get to reroll it at the start of next turn if you just move them back to where your monolith, which is on top of the objective, making it uncontestable? Dude...WTF"


They can, but only at limited range and they can only re-roll WBB if they were eligible for it in the first place.



beenburned said:


> I mean, you consider that a competative list has at least 40 warriors and 1 monoliths (at least) and to phase out, you need to kill 30. Well, as far as I could tell, using my B in GCSE statistics, you need to be killing what is essentially. 83 necrons* to get those 30 dead. Now, I'm aware that only those 40 will be shooting at you, but have you tried killing 83 necrons with 40 shooting you, on top of a monolith and a lord and probably some other things, in just a 1500 point army?


This is an argument that I encounter a LOT. I don’t know where you got 83 from, but if the phase out number from but let me provide an example that I know the math for. A 1500 list for Necrons with 1 monolith has 2 lords, 40 warriors and 5 destroyers and 6 scarabs (this is assuming NO war gear for the lords which means it isn’t a competitive list but there you go). This list has 54 models and a phase out number of 12 (meaning you have to kill 47 necrons for phase out). Not all of them are going to get a WBB since any power weapon disallows a WBB as does rending hits as do double toughness hits. In addition you have to have a template model for them to WBB w/in 6” so your units must be close together. See, plenty of limitations (more than FNP actually). If you assume that each and every necron you kill is eligible for WBB and that the dice roll statistical average then you have to kill 70.5 not 83. I know that 70.5 still sounds like a huge number but for each necron you kill w/o recourse to WBB removes 1.5 from that 70.5 (or 1 from the 47 if you prefer)



beenburned said:


> I used to think about WBB this way - for every WBB roll passed, the necron player has gained 18 points (for a warrior, even more for destroyers/lord/immortals/other) over you. That struck me as unfair that the majority of his army has that.


Not really. The reason that Necron Warriors cost 18 points per each is because the have WBB and gauss. We pay UP FRONT for the ability, we aren’t getting anything for free. The reason it seems like such a low cost is because of the disadvantages like phase out, low initiative, low attack number. 

I think of it like we are paying 14 points for a Necron Warrior and then an additional 4 for the potential to allow him to come back.



beenburned said:


> The reason why I don't consider death guard broken? You can ignore Feel No Pain a lot easier then WBB, they cost a lot more then 18 points for a similar statline, and their guns can't damage my tanks (unless they have a melta, which costs quite a bit more, right?) or my wraithlord. Oh, but necrons can.


Not true. FNP is less restrictive than WBB, but the restrictions are different. The only restriction that FNP has the WBB doesn’t is AP1 and AP2 weapons. Most of those are double toughness anyway. WBB has the template restriction which is a much more difficult one to get around. As for tanks, yes we can damage tanks with our gauss weapon, but we also can’t upgrade any weapon to a true tank killer either. We do have some that do the job (heavy gauss cannon and warscythe) but their use is problematic too.



beenburned said:


> Then you consider what necrons can have besides warriors. They have destroyers, which have a permanent toughness upgrade, meaning I can't instagib them, as opposed to what we get with our bikers, which doesn't help against instagib. Why would that be so? Because they are broken? Could be.


I agree that the destroyer is a powerful piece. I like them A LOT. Some armies can still instant kill them though. Their T5 so any S10 weapon works (demolisher cannon, wraithcannon, dreadnought CC weapon, Railguns). Compare them to an attack bike (same points). We have the same stat line except for the T4(5) vs. T5, the 2W vs. 1W, the I4 vs. I2 and Ld8 vs. Ld10. Then the attack bike gets a heavy bolter AND a twin linked bolter where the destroyer gets a gauss cannon. This looks pretty even to me. More attacks both ranged and CC for the bike with 1 more wound and better initiative for slightly less ranged power, slightly less toughness, and lightly less leadership. Balance seems pretty good.



beenburned said:


> Scarabs - a swarm unit that can move like a jetbike, so yes, they can turboboost. Compare them to rippers with wings (which is the only really comparable thing) and then compare their points cost. Oh, look at that. Rippers are massively more expensive. Then you look at the fact that despite the s3...the scarabs can slowly strip your landraider down.


Scarabs are good. But they aren’t massively less expensive than rippers, just massively less than rippers with all the trimmings. If you put everything possible on the rippers then sure they cost a pretty penny, but the Scarabs cost 16 points a piece for what you want to do, and those 16 points take up a slot you could have a destroyer squad (which you apparently think is worth it). Their tank killing capability used to be formidable, but not under 5th. Take your land raider with 4 main weapons (I think). This means we need to roll 5 or 6 on the armor penetration table 6 times in order to kill it. This doesn’t statistically happen in a single game (1/2 to hit, 1/6 to glance, 1/3 to immobilize of weapon destroy = 1/36) with 20 hits (4 to hit with 40 attacks) you get 3 to 4 6s per attack phase. Just not very likely. It does happen, but I’ve gone an entire game with 3 full squads and not killed a single land raider (all 3 squads attacking the same LR).



beenburned said:


> I nearly forgot to talk about the tank which can deepstrike into the middle of your battle line - without fear - and then unleash d6 shots at ANY unit within 12" and _also_ has an ordinance weapon. People say it's just as easy to take down as a land raider. WRONG. Two words - living metal. Which means that for me, as an eldar player, my only real chance of killing the sod is a fire prism. Which I don't have, and costs £30 if I _do_ want one.


Yes it can deepstrike, but it can’t fire the turn it comes down. Nor can it fire the flux arc and the particle whip in the same round (or use the particle whip and the teleport portal in the same round). For eldar you have several options. Swooping Hawks come to mind rather rapidly – can you say haywire grenade?  You also have your S10 Avatar, your D-cannon, the wraithcannon, and the focused blast on the prism cannon. Then any of your S8 weapons can do it, eventually. Hell the Fire Pike and the Fusion gun are both AP1 so a single hit from one of them can. Just roll that 6 on armor pen and then that 6 for destroy (better odds than the scarabs you were just complaining about)



beenburned said:


> A lot of people have told me that I should just kill the lord. SO, here I go. T5, W3 with his 3+ save and 4+ invuln. Then when we get to WBB, if you roll a 5 or 6, he stands up again with 2 or 3 wounds! Consider that he is then hidden in a unit of 20 necrons, and you may see why even taking one wound can be a tricky prospect, let alone getting him to the WBB point.


The lord is tough, no doubt. And his war gear can make him tougher. Add to that, he is the only piece that DOESN’T need the template to WBB, but your analysis is still incorrect – again. In order to get multiple wounds from WBB he needs the 15 point phylactery, to get the invulnerable save he needs the 30 point Phase Shifter, neither of them are stock. And you really can’t hide inside a squad anymore, just need to drop more than 20 wounds onto them. Possible with several squads and several weapons (ordnance comes to mind pretty rapidly). It is a tricky proposition, but it should be to take on a Lord shouldn’t it?



beenburned said:


> I understand that this is a fairly unfair ealuation, and that any army can get lucky and completely annhialate the necrons. A lucky lascannon can take the monolith down. The necron player may fail every single WBB roll of the battle, I dunno. What I do know, is that this is so rare as to be negligable when evaluating the necron's capabilities, and that when built properly, a necron list is nigh unstoppable, and even a poorly built list is a tricky army to take down. A stupidly built list is fairly easy to take down, but that's because it's stupidly built.


We are finally in agreement, I too think this evaluation was unfair. There are many strengths that Necron’s enjoy which other armies don’t. But there are many strengths that other armies enjoy than Necrons do not. This is not a matter of having broken armies, but a matter of armies being different. Different strengths, different weaknesses, different tactics. 

My suggestion is that you re-evaluate your tactics against Necrons and come up with a winning formula.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

beenburned said:


> I find it hard to say that anything with the stat line of a necron is poor in combat, because compared to guardians...well, they cane ass. True, you stick them up against dedicated assault troops and you'll lose, but CC has never been a tactic that has worked for me for a few reasons.
> - They still get their WBB (unless you overrun, which I admit is a much more viable option in 5th ed. then it ever was in 4th).
> - Half the time, I find my hard hitting CC troops being stranded in the middle of nowhere, after the necrons have teleported or veiled somewhere else.
> - I field smaller, weaker units of men, which get killed due to sheer attrition.
> -The necron player kills my CC troops(and a lot else too) by deepstriking his monolith directly on top of them


The problem is that Necron Warriors are Initiative 2 so they go after just about everything (except power fists) and they only have 1 attack possible (without a charge). This means they are pushing out pretty low wound numbers (anybody that plays with 20 in a squad in 5th are ASKING for phase out) This meant generally 10 warriors, meaning 10 attacks, 5 hits and 2 or 3 wounds against WS4 T4 opponents. This changes to 5 hits and 3 wounds for WS4 T3. Not really very good. Add to that there is NO way to get power weapons for a warrior squad means everyone gets saves.

For the Monolith remember what I said above. Can't shoot on the first turn it enters play from deepstrike. It counts as moving at cruise speed (I think) and can't fire any weapons (I'm sure). After that, all bets are off.

As to veil, Eldar shouldn't need help with this. You are the most mobile army in the game (arguably). Get some wave serpents and load up your Banshees. Get some Vipers and harass until your CC is back in striking range, eliminate the Lord with Mind War. Not too tough to think of ways to achieve victory. 

In the 5th edition format, there is no reason not to have the Mind War sniper option and at least 1 Wave Serpents in a Take All Comers list.




beenburned said:


> Edit - I just remembered - there is a unit that is quite nice for taking 'liths down. Swooping hawks. 4+ to hit in cc against the tank, then 2,3,4,5 glancing, 6 penetrating (I think). Are there any other things though?


I'm glad you though of them (since I think they are obvious - one of the first units I look to kill when I play Eldar if I have a monolith). There are others listed in the monolith section of the last post.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Hehe, I kinda expected you to reply to my posts, Daneel 2.0, after seeing other posts like this around the board by you.
Well, there is the other side of it all I guess. I still disagree about a lot of points, and I skimped on detail and made assumptions without noting them (wargear points on the lord for example...I never said scarabs could destroy a land raider and so on), but there's always going to be disagreement over something like this.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Necrons broken? Please tell me that this is a gag thread.

A Necron Warrior is closest in cost/abilities to a Plague Marine. Plague Marines have wargear/weapon options, Necrons do not. Plague Marines have instant access to their WBB-like FNP, Necrons do not (being forced to wait until the next Necron turn). Plague Marines can hold their own in a fight, Necrons cannot. Plague Marines are both tougher and faster than Necrons. Plague Marines can have a transport, Necrons cannot...

Plague Marines do cost just a tad bit more than a Necron, but their is no area where a Necron Warrior shines brighter than a Plague Marine.

Necron Lords and Monoliths do help the Necron Warriors out a bit, surely, but then again, the HQ and HS options of the Chaos list lend a hand to the Plague Marines as well.

Do you realize, that if a well-designed assault list (BA/Bugs/Eldar) can get the first turn in 5th edition, then it is possible that the Necrons NEVER even see their first turn before phasing out?

Think about it and then tell me that the Necrons are anything more than worthless. And, the Necfans get to wait another 1.5-2.5 years to see a rewrite of the Necron Codex.

I play Necrons, or I did at one point... just before 5th came out. Also, check out just how many major tourneys have Necron armies in any award-winning position vs most other armies and tell me again that they are broken, lol.

This most certainly has to be a gag thread.


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

they are no more broken than a unit of plague marines who have Feel No Pain.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

beenburned said:


> Hehe, I kinda expected you to reply to my posts, Daneel 2.0, after seeing other posts like this around the board by you.
> Well, there is the other side of it all I guess. I still disagree about a lot of points, and I skimped on detail and made assumptions without noting them (wargear points on the lord for example...I never said scarabs could destroy a land raider and so on), but there's always going to be disagreement over something like this.


That's ok. You are entitled to your POV. And you act like getting a missive from me is a bad thing :laugh:

I don't really worry about the assumptions that you made, just your conclusions. Necrons aren't broken - just balanced differently than a marine.


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## darkane (Nov 14, 2007)

These kind of threads get my tighty whiteys in a bunch. Its the same reason i stopped checking out forums for MMO video games. Everything has strengths and weaknesses you just have to figure out what they are. I have had games against Necons where i forced phase out in turn 3 and others where i have gotten stomped. I have had that with all armies and that is the way the game is supposed to be.

If i do not have to THINK about how i am going to defeat my opponent i do not want to play your game. Balance is over rated. Use your head and think about how to defeat your enemy, then they will bitch about your army. 

Its like the signature i have seen on some forums: "I am Rock, Scissors is fine, Nerf Paper" 

all i have to say about this kind of thread is meh. if you cant figure out how to win with your army, change your strategy, other people are doing something right with it.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Daneel2.0 said:


> That's ok. You are entitled to your POV. And you act like getting a missive from me is a bad thing :laugh:
> 
> I don't really worry about the assumptions that you made, just your conclusions. Necrons aren't broken - just balanced differently than a marine.



To be honest, when it comes to it, I agree with your conclusion. I thought that both sides needed saying really, as there was a lot of pro-necron, which wouldn't have made for an interesting thread :laugh: 

I still dislike fighting necrons, although that's more to do with how boring it can be when all you have is one tank and then 40 identical men. Is that the fault of GW for making an army where that's the only competative option, or do I blame my local necron player? 

You know, I just joined my schools debate society. How crap will I be?

Me "so yeah, that's my view"
Them "counter arguement"
Me "oh, yeah actually, I agree"

On a side note that's off topic, the bloke who started the thread and the friend he refered to are actually my friends, which I hadn't realised at first. Its a bit of a shame as it's really just us three in the local area that play warhammer, so the hobby can get quite boring sometimes. Ah well


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## Honking_Elephant (May 8, 2008)

I'll put forward this arguement. Necrons just make for tedious games, with a lack of tactics, and probably a large amount of frustration for both players, and as the point of the game is to have fun, surely they are broken! This is of course my opinion, and you can nitpick and give me crap for it as much as you want, but thats what i think


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## nightmare12369 (Dec 21, 2007)

To me necrons are one of the least broken armys. They are beaten by armies such as eldar in the movement phase, tau in the shooting phase, and most armies including tyranids and blood angels in the assault phase. The only thing they have left is survivability.


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## NerdyOgre254 (Jul 16, 2008)

And that's what makes them unique.

The only army that is broken, and ever will be broken, is Ultras. and if you read the new stats for Calgar, then you would understand what i mean. i haven't read the rules for myself, but apparently the dude is basically a Primarch in terms of power.


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

i collected Necs for about 5months before i got completely bored out of my mind and started on my Orks

but thats not to say that they arnt a good army. IMO they are sort of like Marines - they have several specialised units, ut most of the work is done by the basic troosp choice because they are the best


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## Cinder (Apr 3, 2008)

What I want to know is where do you come up with the question that "Necrons are broken?" The Necrons are very limited in tems of options and each squad is very specific in terms of what role they play on the battlefield. Let me give you some pros and cons about the army. Starting with cons first. Then you can ask yourself if they are broke.
-The necrons only have one set of troop choices.
-The Necron warriors only have one gun which is a gauss, and although in theory it can take down tanks and wound anything on the roll of a 6. Gauss weaponry has been severly powered down to what it used to be. Especially against tanks.
-The only character you are allowed to customise is the Lord. 
-Although the Necrons are allowed to bring a God into the game it is very heavy on the points cost (Plus its just two characters compared to the many that Eldar/Marines get to have.)
-They have no Psychic abilities
-There are only 3 choices of heavy units one of them which is really just a destroyer with a better gun and the other is an infantry that just really counts as a res orb (tomb spider). And the Monolith which is a slow moving tank/skimmer that although it is cheesy, is on the pricey side.
-And finally the biggest deficit is the Phase out rule in where you just completely lose if the army gets to 25%. Not below 25% as someone tried to tell me at my local shop. It is at the specified number and below.

Here are the Pros of the Army
-Powerfull HQs
-Basic Troops have the ability to hurt a tank
-Every single model in the army has leadership 10
-Any unit that is considered a "Necron" coupled with a Lord can have the ability to teleport
-Monolith (need I say more on that?)
-And Lastly...."Will be back", which in a sence is just a feel no pain roll.

I know there are more pros and cons to this army but I just wanted to keep things simple and as short as possible. *Any person can say that any army is broke if the person's tactics were inefficient.* Is an all Jumpack army of Blood Angels broke? No, Just shoot them and feed them one sacrificial squad at a time and keep shooting. Is having an all fearless army of Tyranids broke. No, just take out the synapes creatures out of the game. In my experience every single army is broke. Each army excells at a certain charateristic and does well in that field but it is that proficiency in the field that creates weaknesses in other areas.

And finally I would like to apologize to anyone who thinks that I am going on a long rant. It just that Necrons were the first army that I put together and I'm just tired of many people saying that they are broke. If they were broke then a lot of GT's would be won by Necron armies. But in fact it is the complete oppisite...it is very rare to see Necrons at GT's much less win them.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

RE: the Monolith



Daneel2.0 said:


> Yes it can deepstrike, but it can’t fire the turn it comes down.


It *CAN *fire the turn it comes down.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Not by my understanding. Any vehicle entering play from deepstrike counts as moving at cruising speed, even if they could not normally move that fast. And any vehicle moving at cruising speed cannot fire any weapons that turn.

I don't see any FAQ or Necron Codex specific rule that would allow different, but I'm willing to listen


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## fool injected (Sep 14, 2008)

No Necrons are not broken. What cause people heartburn are all the special rules for the monolith and Well Be Back rules. 

The new codex will address these issues. I hope they add more vairety to their army. It is sort of boring to play since they don't have many choices. It is a shame it seems like the same 5-6 units are used in almost all Necron armies.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

darklove said:


> RE: the Monolith
> 
> It *CAN *fire the turn it comes down.


Page reference?

Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire. Page 58.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

onlainari said:


> Page reference?
> 
> Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire. Page 58.


Since when does deep striking count as cruising speed?

Monoliths are _Ponderous_ and can only move at combat speed (p21 Necron Codex).


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

darklove said:


> Since when does deep striking count as cruising speed?
> 
> Monoliths are _Ponderous_ and can only move at combat speed (p21 Necron Codex).


The monolith counts as moving at cruising speed in the shooting phase.

Deep Strike

In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed.

Page 95.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

onlainari said:


> Page reference?
> 
> Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire. Page 58.


But the monolith can always discharge the Power matrix, even if it has moved. The particle whip doesn't count as one of it's weapons


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I don't think Necrons are broken at all. In my experience, broken armies are always fielded by power-gamers out only to win a tabletop game involving plastic and metal miniatures at all costs. That seems to be more like the realm of Space Marines and Eldar...

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> But the monolith can always discharge the Power matrix, even if it has moved. The particle whip doesn't count as one of it's weapons


Not true. If the Particle Whip didn't count as one of the weapons, then they could fire the Flux Arc and the Whip both in the same turn.

The monolith still must obey rules for movement and rules for firing ordnance, which is why they cannot fire the Particle Whip and the Flux Arc in the same turn even if it doesn't move.


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## kungfoomasta (May 8, 2008)

they can. the rules for the particle whip are under the section for the power matrix and are used in one of the 2 ways. what you seem to be saying is that you can fire the flux arc or the whip or teleport things which isnt the case. a monolith can ALWAYS fire the whip because the power matrix isnt a weapon even if stunned or shaken.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The P-Whip is Ordinance = if you shoot it you can not shoot another weapon, even defensive weapons.

If you Flux Arc then you can still teleport, but if you P-Whip then that is all you can do.


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

Darklove, Daneel and onlainari are correct.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

kungfoomasta said:


> they can. the rules for the particle whip are under the section for the power matrix and are used in one of the 2 ways. what you seem to be saying is that you can fire the flux arc or the whip or teleport things which isn't the case. a monolith can ALWAYS fire the whip because the power matrix isn't a weapon even if stunned or shaken.


The rules for P-Whip allow you to fire even in the cases of crew shaken or stun results, and firing prevents you from using the portal for reserves or teleportation, but you still have to obey the rules for movement and firing multiple weapon systems (since the crystal used in this fashion is still a weapon system).

And thanks for the support Deceiver. Good looking out :biggrin:


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm away from my codex at the time of writing but I'm pretty sure it says you can ALWAYS discharge the power matrix, even if moving! Under the 'Weapons' section on the Monolith's page all that is listed is Gauss Flux Arc. Its not technically one of it's weapons. I'll have a look when I get home but I'm like 99% sure it says you can move and fire it... Don't hate me I'm not trying to argue


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Page 221-

Power Matrix.The power matrix cannot be disabled by a "weapon destroyed" result and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned.

And now, to paraphrase-

It may discharge the energy AS a particle whip.

The other option is to use it to port in Warriors.


So.

It's pretty clearly not a "weapon" in the conventional sense.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> Page 221-
> 
> Power Matrix.The power matrix cannot be disabled by a "weapon destroyed" result and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned.
> 
> ...


My savior! lol. I pretty much leaped upon my codex when I got home. But just forgot to post I guess...


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it works that way. The particle whip says that you can fire if you move, which is a reference to normal movement (i.e. Combat Speed). Even in 4th you couldn't deepstrike in and then particle whip (but you could flux arc). Now since deepstriking counts as moving flat out, you can't fire any weapons, including the particle whip. 

At least that's the way I've read it.

EDIT: As to it being a weapon in the conventional sense, definitely not, but it is still a weapon system even if unconventional.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

But it CAN be fired with a "Crew Stunned" result, which ALSO "never" lets you fire a weapon.

Hardly that strange, if Land Raiders could deepstrike we'd be having this argument about Power of the Machine Spirit.

EDIT: This is one for the FAQ, which'll trump any personal interpretations... anybody got it handy?


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Yes, It would be one for the FAQ, and it doesn't say anything about it.

This is another situation that should hopefully be resolved with the new codex, but until then, I'd err on the side of not allowing it (as I truthfully do with most things).

The difference between crew shaken and movement is that the codex specifically exempts the Monolith from the crew shaken, crew stun and the weapon destroy rule. The movement thing is new, so comparisons don't really apply here.

As to it not being a weapon system, I'd have to say (again) it is. It counts as ordinance and the only thing that counts as ordinance is ordinance (a weapon).

Again, just my take.


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## NerdyOgre254 (Jul 16, 2008)

Deep Striking Land Raiders... hells yeah.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Daneel2.0 said:


> The movement thing is new, so comparisons don't really apply here.


Not really....

Back when that Codex was written, Ordnance couldn't be fired if the vehicle moved.

But it explicitly says it can fire even if it moves.

And a thorny question, to be sure.

Luckily, there are few enough Necron players around here, it hasn't come up yet.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

What I meant was that the Deepstriking counts as moving "Flat Out" is new, not that the ordinance firing from a moving vehicle rule was new.

That said, it is a thorny question. Like the WBB and falling back question. Both thorny, both should be FAQed, or at least dealt with in the new codex. Hopefully. Maybe.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

If a Monolith moves "Flat Out" then it can still fire the P-Whip because it is _Ponderous_. But deep striking seems to go beyond that...


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

The codex is very clear on the exemptions for firing the particle whip.

You can do it if you are shaken, stunned, or if you have moved.

There is no exemption for moving at cruising speed, thus it can't fire after deep striking.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

onlainari said:


> There is no exemption for moving at cruising speed, thus it can't fire after deep striking.


But "cruising speed" hadn't entered the parlance at the time it was written.

I stand by the assertion that it's not something we actually have a concrete answer for.


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> But "cruising speed" hadn't entered the parlance at the time it was written.
> 
> I stand by the assertion that it's not something we actually have a concrete answer for.


A lot of things became obsolete with the new rules, and a lot of things now look weird without the context of the old rules.

It still stands that there is no exemption for cruising speed until they FAQ it.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

onlainari said:


> It still stands that there is no exemption for cruising speed until they FAQ it.


No, merely a blanket exemption for "moving," which is clear as mud.

Let us not forget, this is a Codex that predates even the "Swarm" universal special rule. A Codex that lets a "bike" toughness make the Necron Lord immune to instant death.


...

I'm ABSURDLY grateful that we don;t have to deal with this much in my area...


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## Malagate (Jul 28, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> No, merely a blanket exemption for "moving," which is clear as mud.
> 
> Let us not forget, this is a Codex that predates even the "Swarm" universal special rule. A Codex that lets a "bike" toughness make the Necron Lord immune to instant death.


When it comes to the whole destroyer body +1 Toughness issue I always assumed that it was +1 T because it is actually replacing body parts with a vehicle rather than merely sitting on a vehicle. That is to say, you can shoot a Space Marine off of a bike with a krak missile but you couldn't if the space marine WAS the bike.

I still think you shouldn't be able to deepstrike and fire an ordanance weapon in the same turn, as I was under the impression that even in the old rules you cannot move and fire ordanance? Even if the Monolith had special exemptions for moving and firing an ordance weapon (ponderous movement wasn't it? I'd hope so with a tank that can only move 6" tops), Deepstriking it in current rules still follows the whole cruising speed as mentioned before (even if it cannot normally move that fast). Besides that would be perhaps a bit too strong to have an ordanance weapon you could drop anywhere on the field and fire instantly with it.


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## XV8crisis (Jul 31, 2008)

i never figured that.. damn, i need more railguns!! 

__________________________________________________________________________
_thou shalt not exploit thine bionics to perform 'the robot' flawlessly on cue. _


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## BrotherR (Oct 10, 2008)

There is an FAQ out and teleporting and not using the whip is not mentioned. not sure if they haven't encountered it yet.


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