# Roboute Guilliman...most like the Emperor?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

In _First Heretic_, Kor-Phaeron tells Lorgar that Guilliman is the primarch who most resembles the Emperor in totality...
now, Kor-Phaeron may have had ulterior motives for saying this. He and Erebus wanted Lorgar to abandon the Emperor for Chaos. At the time, Lorgar was nursing an intense hatred for Guilliman, so claiming that the Emperor and Guilliman were very similar would most likely fan Lorgar's resentment against the Emperor. 

But was there any truth in Kor-Phaeron's statement? To my knowledge, out of all the legions, the Ultramarines left worlds in the best condition, and except for the Luna Wolves, conquered the most. Though Horus was the closest to the Emperor emotionally, I don't think Horus resembled him the most in character (or did he? correct me if I'm wrong).


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## MilleniumWatcher (Feb 22, 2011)

I think Guilliman was the closest to the emperors vision of the galaxy and therefore closer to him. Horus was perhaps just an image for the war?


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

I disagree about Horus being war. Horus or Sanguinius would be most like him. But in truth all we know about the Emperor is that he was a amazingly intlegent and powerful psyker, who wished for humanity to survive. So how can we decided who was most like him when we do not know him.


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## ro_tof_el (Feb 22, 2011)

i liked the bit with the shooting.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

I take it he was the Emperors administrative personality trait.
I dont see any one Primarch as being most like Him, just all different facets of him.
If Guilliman was most like anyone it would be the Sigilite, Administrstor Extraordinaire!


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I honestly think your perceptions of the Ultramarines and the hate leveled at them in recent years makes people think this more than anything that the primarch who you cannot argue becomes the MOST powerful and influential over HUMANITY.... building a legacy that outstrips that of the Emperor... is an admin wizz... and that is all.

Facts are facts fluff wise and have been since way back when...

1). Without the Ultramarines the Imperium would have crumbled to dust. They were the legion that stepped into the breach left by the heresy and held it together.
2). The Astrates Codex.... yes... has lasted and served the Imperium now for now 9 times longer than the Emperor reigned technically..... which lasted and influenced the Space Marines the most? even the non codex chapters are bound to it in some ways... look at any Chapter trying to go above 1,000 marines openly? or stray too far from the codex into something really strange?
3). There is probably more seed of the Ultramarine than anything else out there fighting the good fight.... thats a tribute to him totally.
4). Without him, it would have been WH32K and a couple of hundred years of bad civil war.... not WH40k.

I do appreciate people dislike the Ultra's and Guilliman but get over it... LOL. He is a fictional character who your looking at as some kind of admin secretary... he led the entire IMPERIUM as Lord Commander... something Horus could never do... or Dorn... or anyone else... that speaks for itself.



Flame away


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How do you know no one else could have done it? If Sanguinius was alive he likely could have done it. I wager Dorn could aswell if he hadn't taken part in the Siege, found his brother dead, more importantly his father crippled. I dont doubt Guillimans skill, but you make it sound like he was superior to everyone else.

Without the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists or Blood Angels the imperium would likely be dust, without any of them, the last three more particularly, then the Siege would have in all likelihood been lost. 

Either way I would say no-one embodied the Emperor the most, they all showed different aspects of his personality. Having said that, I would still (like Horus) back Sanguinius over Guilliman


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Without the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists or Blood Angels the imperium would likely be dust, without any of them, the last three more particularly, then the Siege would have in all likelihood been lost.


Collected Visions places the Ultramarines with the Dark Angels and the Wolves with the relief force. They where in fact mere hours if he believe Horus's daemonic allies warning him of the approch of the three Legions.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I know, tragic isn't it. As if all the shit the Ultramarines did in and after the heresy wasn't enough, they still felt the need to retcon it and have them break the siege aswell, quite possibly one of the only things i hate about collected visions. Regardless, the other Legions were still essential to the Imperiums survival.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm actually an Ultramarines fan

people say the Ultramarines are boring and vanilla, but I think they do have a unique character that has a lot of potential to be explored. 
I recently saw a thread on Heresy Online about the joke legion, the "Reasonable Marines", and I thought aren't the Ultramarines the "reasonable marines"? 

The worlds they rule are thriving and the citizens well-off, but still very disciplined and loyal to the Imperium. Heck, I think the entire Imperium would probably be a whole lot better off if the Ultramarines ran everything. Ultramar provides an interesting contrast to the Imperium. The citizens are relatively open-minded and tolerant, and life doesn't suck. 

I think this idea was explored in the alternate Heresy time-line, the "Dornian Heresy". The Ultramarines split off from the Imperium and established their own Empire of Ultramar. They viewed the Imperium as oppressive and corrupt. This is probably true even in the official 40k time-line if you compare Ultramar to the rest of the Imperium.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

To add my 2 cents in I think that Sanguinius and Roboute Guilliman would both have been best.... dependent on the situation. Both had different skills both of which could have made them excellent Warmasters.

To continue with the offensive crusade like Horus was leading would have suited Sanguinius more in my opinion. From what I see Sang and the BAs were an all or nothing Legion. They were black and white with nothing in between when it came to warfare. Sanguinius shared 1 important thing with Horus in that I get the impression that he had the charisma and charm that Horus had and to my present knowledge had either a good or reasonable relationship with all the other Primarchs and legions. He supported Magnus' feelings about Librarians even when most didn't and I think he was also supportive of Lorgar and his methods as Sang understood about inspiring others to fulfill their potential which Lorgar tried to do in inspiring people to worship the Emperor. The BAs were also not that large to inspire jealousy amongst the other Primarchs. I think if Roboute Guilliman had tried to be Warmaster prior to the Heresy, his lack of working relationships with some of the other Primarchs, along with the sheer size of his Legion would have made others fear or become jealous of him. After all if the Ultras had turned traitor the Imperium would have been doomed there and then since his Legion alone could have fought several other legions at once and when you add other potential traitors then their numbers would have counted when combined with Guilliman's well attested tactical genius.

On the other hand, to fight the defensive battle needed after the Heresy I think even if Sang had lived, he wouldn't have been the best man for the job. I don't believe he had the overall tactical and administrative skills to plan the defence of a crippled Imperium. The BAs weren't large enough to lead from the front as it were while no-one cared about how large the Ultras were anymore, only that they lead the defence and scouring while the other largely smashed loyal legions recovered. 

After all the White Scars were decimated defending the Imperial Palace (there is a line in one of the stories about Jaghati Khan and the handful of unwounded White Scars defending Lions Gate space port watching the traitors retreat after the death of Horus). The Blood Angels took horrific casualties defending the palace, specifically the Eternity Gate. The Imperial Fists have a column on Terra with thousands on thousands of skulls, bones and armour of their Marines who died in the defence of the Palace. The Raven Guard and Sallies had been almost wiped out on Istvaan 5. The Iron Hands were at reasonable strength but the loss of their Primarch and Veterans must have been devastating. The Dark Angels were almost at full strength (as far as we currently know) but were dwarfed in size by the Ultras and I suspect that Lion El Jonson's actions in giving the seige engines to the traitor Perturabo might have been discovered which put his motives in doubt to the other loyal Primarchs (although this is a guess). Finally the Space Wolves had taken massive casualties on Prospero and in space against the Alpha Legion and in any case were one of the smaller Legions.

Just my 2 (rather lengthy sorry) cents


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

That wasn't Kor-Phaeron.
That was Matt Ward.
He was trying to rub it in Lorgar's face that he wasn't an Ultramarine, because he himself, was disappointed and jealous that he was not, in fact, an Ultramarine.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I disagree. Guilliman may have been one of the primarchs that best depicted his Imperial Utopia. But in the end of things, I don't think the Emperor wanted his Imperium to be as militaristic as Guilliman could have made it if he was Warmaster. It seemed as though, the Emperor was expecting some sort of peaceful and prosperous galaxy for all of humanity after he finished with the Imperial Webway. Especially since he was going to make Konrad Curze pay for his ways being different from the Emperor's ideal ways.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Alexious said:


> I honestly think your perceptions of the Ultramarines and the hate leveled at them in recent years makes people think this more than anything that the primarch who you cannot argue becomes the MOST powerful and influential over HUMANITY.... building a legacy that outstrips that of the Emperor... is an admin wizz... and that is all.
> 
> Facts are facts fluff wise and have been since way back when...
> 
> ...


1. By virtue of being the largest remaining legion.
2. Emeror still reigns, and without him there would be no SM's to begin with, so I'd say he had a greater influence on them than a glorified instruction manual.
3. Yeah, fair play no arguments about that.
4. Nearly was with him, iirc Dorn didnt take too kindly to being told how to run his legion, again iirc if it wasnt for his brothers tender words to Dorn, it would have been.

He was an administrator, he ran Empires, that was his thing, his gimmick, he made eutopias and ran them as such.
Its not an insult to him to say such things, maybe Admin isnt the right word, but hey ho.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I got to thinking about it more, and I believe the Emperor and Guilliman are polar opposites. The Emperor set lose these genetic monstrosities of war to conquer in the name of the Emperor. I believe if he was in better shape after the siege he would have reconstructed and gone forward towards his dream.

On the other hand, you have Guilliman who believed the astartes should be controlled due to the potentially devastating effects if something like the Heresy ever happened again. Even the settings of the codex control what astartes can and cannot do. If you end up breaking it, its a sin and you end up Uriel, going around the tainted galaxy performing miracles before you can be forgiven.


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

We March for Macragge and We shall know No Fear.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

It was Horus the one who said Sanguinius was the best among them. When discussing what characteristics each of the primarchs shared with The Emperor, he said Sanguinius had them all.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Sangriento said:


> It was Horus the one who said Sanguinius was the best among them. When discussing what characteristics each of the primarchs shared with The Emperor, he said Sanguinius had them all.


You mean this:

“_Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his..._” -- The Warmaster Horus


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Eh, as far as Primarchs, I would just agree with everyone else. Horus, San, or RG.

But I don't believe the Emperor intended for any of the Primarchs to govern. If he could have chosen a hand picked successor, I believe he would have chosen Malcador.

The Primarchs were machines of war, nothing more.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> Eh, as far as Primarchs, I would just agree with everyone else. Horus, San, or RG.
> 
> But I don't believe the Emperor intended for any of the Primarchs to govern. If he could have chosen a hand picked successor, I believe he would have chosen Malcador.
> 
> The Primarchs were machines of war, nothing more.


interesting point

Malcador is a very interesting character, some even suggest he was the Emperor's descendant


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Indeed, the Sigilite seems a much better ruler than any primarch, but if i were to chose one, it would most definitely be mr sang, since he seems like a cool dood in a loose mood


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

I think it goes without saying that it is likely (my conjecture) most (if not all) Primarchs shared some aspect of the Emperor, but none more than another. 

In the First Heretic it is clear Lorgar resembles the Emperor the most, with a countenance most like him. His compassion and zealotry as well perhaps?? misguided as it was.

But in relation to Horus, it was his ambition which shone thru, and appears to be the main reason Horus was picked as Warmaster (mentioned in First Heretic??). The shared vision of the Galaxy appeared to be to the Emperors liking. I can imagine most if not all other Primarchs shared something of the Emperor.

Very correct though, Horus in a stage of doubt believed Sang was much better suited to Warmaster. A HH book on the BA will be awesome.

Which makes me think 2 things.
Was there any Curze, Angron or Mortarion in the Emperor?
Was there something in the 2 lost Primarchs that was so abhorrent to/ different from the Emperor leading to their..... whatever happened to them?


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

I would argue Curze would be the Emperor's vengeance. His drive to restore and maintain order and lawfulness.

Angron would be the Emperor's bloodlust. I believe it in the Last Church short story where the priest see's this aspect of the Emperor, and it horrified him.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Mortarion being his resilience perhaps


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Darkoan said:


> Which makes me think 2 things.
> Was there any Curze, Angron or Mortarion in the Emperor?
> Was there something in the 2 lost Primarchs that was so abhorrent to/ different from the Emperor leading to their..... whatever happened to them?


If you want to see the Curze in the Emperor just look at how he dealt with his wayward sons. His Angron is evident in his leading from the front (initially at least he fought in many battles alongside his sons). Mortarion represents his drive to overcome, a very necessary trait in someone who wants to forge a united humanity in a galaxy that hates them.

As for Guilliman being most like the Emperor. I think that`s a load of bull. The Emperor built each of his sons with a specific facet of his personality, no one got any more than any others.

The reason I don`t think Guilliman would have made a good Warmaster is simple. He`s afraid. He lacks the courage to just go for it. When presented with the power of only 9 legions he immediately saw the dangers they posed, not the glory that could be achieved with them. He broke them down because he feared their power, his own power at the time. Guilliman saw every possibility, it was his gift but it was also his flaw. He saw everything that could possibly go wrong.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm gonna let the Baron take this one, if he sees it that is. Now I'm not Guillimans biggest fan, but I don't belive for a moment he was afraid of having power, shit he controlled his own mini empire and had the largest astartes legion by a very very long way, no way was he afraid. I love the legions over chapters, but it was still the right thing to do I think.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

If nothing more, Gulliman was a peace maker but when he had to he was a war maker that utilised the two talents into one. He brought worlds into complience and left them - more often then not in a better state then they were before.

the trouble as has been pointed out it could all have gone horribly wrong after the heresy when he inisted that the leigons be broken down into chapters, for the right reasons in hindsight, that no primarch ever weilds that amount of power again.

the heresy itself taught him and i suspect the others a lesson, that for all the parts of the emperor they do share, the one part they do not share is his seeimgly incorruptability. 

Dorn and a couple of others did not want to break the leigons up and had those that agreed with Robute not been successful in convinving him otherwise, then there would have been another war that this time they would not have survived, as it was the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands almost got blasted into extinction.

I believe that although the Ultramarines are very ordered and successful at what they do, even with the old Leigon broken into chapters they are still a powerful pressence and i suspect that is what pisses some of the other legions/chapters off a little. 

is Gulliman most like the emperor? nope i think that is probably a toss up between Horus and Sanguinius, mainly becasue they both had the charisma, had things not gone the way they had to govern the imperium in a way that thier father would have wanted, Gulliman is an excdellant tactician, i believe that was one of his strengths but when it came to being better then horus or sang, he was thier malcador or could have been


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Honestly Sang or Horus were more the Emp. Guilliman was overlooked cause hes not all that and then some.

I never like Guilliman for a few reasons. He was set up by GW as there mascot, nothing more.

Why is the UMs the by far largest? They never did anything during the Heresy except fought off some WBs. Then when everyone else fights themselves to extinction they step in and rule whats left cause they have the numbers. This makes Guilly look like a slimy bastard. Then insult to injury he makes the Codex Astartes that HE made to govern the other Primarchs legions. Like hes better than everyone else. Now we play a game set in the far futur where UMs are da best and 90% of chapters have RGs geneseed. Oddly enough tho its seems from a Black Library and Codex perspective that Books about Dorns Geenseed like Black Templars, Crimson Fist, and Soul Drinkers, as well Blood Angels and Space Wolves are INFINITLY more popular than anything from UMs. So Im happy with these turn of events.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> Angron would be the Emperor's bloodlust. I believe it in the Last Church short story where the priest see's this aspect of the Emperor, and it horrified of it.


However it was magnified by the rage implant.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I never like Guilliman for a few reasons. He was set up by GW as there mascot, nothing more.
> 
> Why is the UMs the by far largest? They never did anything during the Heresy except fought off some WBs. Then when everyone else fights themselves to extinction they step in and rule whats left cause they have the numbers. This makes Guilly look like a slimy bastard.


Actually no. The Ultramarines formed half the Marines in the field after the Heresy and held the Imperium together in the Scouring.

IA Ultramarines.



> The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion.


The Deathwatch rulebook even states that the Imperium would have fallen in the century after the Heresy.



Warlock in Training said:


> Then insult to injury he makes the Codex Astartes that HE made to govern the other Primarchs legions.


Actually no. Guilliman was charged by the High Lords to make it. And the only part that actually appears to be required was the reduction of numbers aspect. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Oddly enough tho its seems from a Black Library and Codex perspective that Books about Dorns Geenseed like Black Templars, Crimson Fist, and Soul Drinkers, as well Blood Angels and Space Wolves are INFINITLY more popular than anything from UMs. So Im happy with these turn of events.


Actually no. The Ultramarines series, from what I understand when talking to Black Library authors, is quite popular. it's hardly infinitely more popular.


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## revelation1 (Nov 13, 2010)

Kickback said:


> 1. By virtue of being the largest remaining legion.
> 2. Emeror still reigns, and without him there would be no SM's to begin with, so I'd say he had a greater influence on them than a glorified instruction manual.
> 3. Yeah, fair play no arguments about that.
> 4. Nearly was with him, iirc Dorn didnt take too kindly to being told how to run his legion, again iirc if it wasnt for his brothers tender words to Dorn, it would have been.
> ...


I think the right word/phrase is Great Leader.

Not only was Guilliman a great civic leader but he was an amazing military strategist, easily a match for Horus. Horus viewed Guilliman as an equal in terms of martial knowledge and skill.


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