# Why Does Ultramar Benefit Being in the Imperium?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

This is an interesting question, especially since Guilliman's plans for the Imperium seem to have been planned out. Of course that last novels make him look good, but besides for that. Why? Why would Guilliman and Ultramar be simply another part of the Imperium?

Ultramar is probably the most advanced area of the Imperium, and perhaps even the strongest. Especially before their worlds were burned by the traitors. What doesn't make any sense to me is why such a civilization which in many ways could be considered its own civilization for mankind, let itself be tied down to the Imperium. The Imperium is controlling, and demands ties. Much of the Terra is very closeminded to the rest of the Galaxy. The Emperor really seemed to be the closest thing to an open mind, and in many ways, it was very limited as well.

We hear the Ultramarines loyalty to the Imperium and how they are so great. We hear about their armies and how utterly loyal they are to the Imperium. Doesn't this seem a little to Disney? They don't really help themselves being part of the Imperium. Especially in the year 40,000. They constantly owe the rest of the Imperium armies and supplies. People dieing for causes light years away from Ultramar. 

This loyalty seems a bit farfetched. At least to me it doesn't seem reasonable to have the Ultramarines represent the Imperium when in many ways they could be considered superior. Yet, we fail to see any resentment to the Imperium from Ultramar. 

So its like, you have the best Empire in the galaxy, some dude from Terra tells you to bow, and you do, only to give up so much to things beyond your cause. 

Furthermore, Guilliman's legacy to the Imperium has been butchered by the High Lords and fanatics. The Imperium is essentially a darker form of itself and completely opposite of Guilliman's legacy. Yet... no outcry from the Ultramarines or its people. No resentment at all, even with millions of sons from Ultramar going to their deaths. 

Is it just me, or does this fluff thing with Guilliman, the Ultramarines, and Ultramar being the most loyal and the best thing for the Imperium seem a bit over the top?


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Change from progress and light into tyranny and madness is a gradual thing -- as we all know. Likely in the beginning the Ultramarines had some complaints following Guilliman's 'demise' and the High Lords slowly chewing away at his legacy. Maybe they even decried the High Lords, in an age when Astartes doing so wasn't considered so wrong. Things changed over time -- the Ministorum arose, the Inquisition grew greatly in both scope and power, and the High Lords over the centuries did not know Guilliman, his legacy, or his ideals. They saw their own ambition.

It is a tragic way of life but the Thousand Sons are right -- all is dust ... eventually. Ultramar's loyalty, in my opinion without having read any of the Omnibus, would likely stem from a sort of hero worship of Guilliman. He once ruled the entire Imperium, the second 'Emperor' as one might describe him. Sure there was a High Lords Council ... but do any of us honestly thing Guilliman didn't completely run the whole show. They probably view the Imperium of today to be Guilliman's vision.

Mind you the events of the Horus Heresy are, in my view, even a myth for the High Lords. They hear of it, they see the Traitor Legions, the Warp, ect, ect -- but the whole ordeal is alien and foreign to them. And take into account the Astartes have no representation on the High Lords -- as was Guilliman's design. So I can see how the Ultramarines would have simply accepted whatever the High Lords dictated -- they are to be ruled by common men now, the Astartes and Primarchs are far too untrustworthy.


----------



## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Well, let's look at this tactically then. So the Ultramarines decide to turn away from the imperium. This means that now, especially in the eyes of the Imperium, they are now the single biggest and most able threat facing them. Chaos is all holed up in the eye, the tyranids are, well erratic in their assaults. The only organised terrifyingly strong force is the Ultramar people. 

So, not even taking into account the pure anger that the other astartes chapters would feel at this betrayal. Ultramar would have to be swiftly eliminated. So yes Ultramar might be the best of the Imperium, but I doubt they could take the Imperium on, and you had best believe that especially since all this stuff about the Horus Heresy came about, the Imperium would send every man woman and child against this rising which would be almost as, if not more, catastrophic as the first great betrayal in the first place. 

So essentially, it would wipe out both nations as they strove to eliminate each other. 

In my most humble of opinions at least, besides I doubt that a people as tactically minded as the Ultramarines, and the people of Ultramar, would not consider this possibility and in so doing would see the flaws in it. 

Oh don't get me wrong, it would be a glorious war, one thing I would love to see. But, alas, I don't see anyone profiting from it. 

And the mass hysteria from the Horus Heresy, in my mind at least, confirms the utter annihilation that would follow from a sector of the Imperium going traitor.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Because of the threats that are out there.

Think about it. At the outbreak of the Heresy, Ultramar numbered five hundred worlds and was arguably close to the apogee of human civilization. It took "only" two Legions to break up that noble experiment then. Since then, the danger to humanity has grown even worse, and Ultramar can only claim *eight* planets. In the waning years of the 41st millennium, a rogue like Honsou (who wasn't even in the same league as Huron Blackheart) was able to scrape enough alliances together to throw the whole of Ultramar on the ropes. Or, if you want to go even bigger, I doubt they would think they could take on the galaxy's biggest threats on their own following the Fist Tyrannic War.

So no, no way would the Ultramarines be stupid enough to pull Ultramar out of the Imperium. They still possess a realm that is absolutely a gem compared to the rest of the Imperium, but I simply can't imagine them thinking they could make do without the resources of the Adeptus Mechanicum.

Beyond that, you have to consider the ideology of the Ultramarines once Roboute Guilliman was lost to them. There is no way they would turn their back to the Imperium, especially when the Codex Astartes - their legacy as a Legion - and other works of their Primarch were so central to the identity to the realm as a whole.

Incidentally, the only way the Imperium gets "wiped out" trying to eliminate Ultramar is if the Ultramarines were able to bring in at least half the existing Space Marines on their side. This would theoretically be feasible, since something like 2/3 of the Adeptus Astartes hail from Ultramarines gene-seed... but it's not quite that simple. We know, for instance, that a great many Chapters don't necessarily know of their connection to the XIII Legion (I'm looking at you, Iron Snakes of Ithaka!). Additionally, there are other Chapters that just don't really _care_ that they come from the Ultramarines (see Mortifactors).


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

My dear Phoebus,

But as you said, they still have that capability of becoming an Empire entirely on their own. If they wanted to, they would still get a lot of help from their successor chapters and probably have a great recruitment production.

There is something to be said about Mars though. But do you think that Mars would not ally with Ultramar? They have had seperatist mindset for years, and probably still do. Especially with a close-minded Imperium watching over their backs.

Also, would that necessarly mean war? Is it even possible that the Imperium would be able to get enough resources to invade Ultramar in its current state? Its almost like holding the gate against a horde of enemies and knowing one of your brother in arms has just run away. Do you really grab half of the guys holding the gate to go chase him down?


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

No, not today. That's what I was trying to get across.

Honsou, in the larger scheme of things, is nothing. He's a Warsmith whose grudge against a single Captain of the Ultramarines almost brought about the downfall of all of Ultramar. A realm like that simply cannot survive on its own in the long-run within the 40k setting.

Beyond that, why would Mars invite civil war with the Imperium - a million planets strong - to side with an eight-planet quasi-empire? That makes no sense. Are they separatist? No, not really. I think what they truly are is jealous of their religious beliefs. Mars was worried about its independence when they were one planet, with no ties to a barbaric, backwards Terra, and isolated from the larger Galaxy. At this point, they absolutely realize that their re-unification with ancient Forge Worlds and the continuation of their Adeptus, Cult, and culture is in large part thanks to the war-machine and logistics that the Imperium provides. Why on earth would they risk that?

And, even more importantly, remember that the Adeptus Mechanicus commonly hold that the Emperor is the Omnissiah - the physical avatar of their Machine God.

Finally, could the Imperium invade Ultramar? We're talking about eight planets. Have you read "The Chapter's Due"? How could the Imperium not match what Honsou was able to bring to the table?

Cheers!


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The Chapter's Due is an interesting read. But the traitors were pretty much slaughtered. The real enemy in that book... To be fair was Mkar. The traitors were obliterated. Essentially becoming hit and run fellows. The main objective was destroying the shard. 

Maccrage stood against a whole tyrannid fleet. My dear Phoebus you bring up some good points but the point still stands when in history has a people simply let itself be dominated like that? They essentially have everything they need from the imperium now. Is it at least possible that there is incredible resentment against the imperium from ultramar?


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Ultramar survived the First Tyrannic War thanks to the aid of the Imperial Navy. If it wasn't a part of the Imperium that battlefleet wouldn't have showed up and the Ultramarines would be ripper food. 

As Phoebus says Ultramar, whilst on the more utopian side of the scale than most of the Imperium is still in no position to survive on its own. Ultramar's relationship with the Imperium is symbiotic. The Imperium gains well run, loyal and productive worlds and Ultramar can shelter under the ageis of the Imperium's immense military. Remaining a part of the Imeprium is also how it gets its Astropaths, Navigators and Mechanicus personnel- all vital. As it stands Ultramar loses nothing by remaining a part of the Imperium.


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Also take into account that within the Imperium, the Ultramarines have a very good reputation. A vast sum of the Astartes Chapters call Guilliman their father. Their successors dictate the path of the Adeptus Astartes in some ways they are second to none and their closest rival, the Blood Angels, do not come close to their numbers.


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I think the Ultramarines could pull off a coup had the Tyranids not shown up. They could call all their successors and probably a few other chapters to their banner and do quite well. But Ultramar is right in the middle of the Tyranid action. They need support from the whole Imperium to deal with the threat.

Even were this not the case, loyalty to the Imperium is forced down their throats during the indoctrination of every Astartes. Without being swayed to Chaos, this loyalty is tough to break. And many Chaos Marines or others fallen to Chaos still believe what they do serves the Imperium. They see those not fallen to Chaos as the traitors.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ultramar needs the Imperium, for reasons already stated. It would have been wiped off the map long ago without the Imperium's protection. What does Ultramar lose by being part of the Imperium? Tithes? Well worth it.

Seceding from the Imperium would only make an enemy of Terra. It would render Ultramar unable to access the Adeptus Mechanicus, Astropaths, Navigator Houses and don't forget it's access to the Astronomican is now only intermittent anyway. Beyond that, the citizens of Ultramar are probably just as fanatically devoted to Terra and the God-Emperor as the rest of the Imperium. The Ultramarines themselves are inextricably linked with the Imperial war-machine through ten thousand years of service, and indeed have formed the basis of the Adeptus Astartes.

There would be no benefit in and there seems absolutely no desire for Ultramar to secede from the Imperium.


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

*Re: to orginal sender*

Interesting post.

As I see it, no part of the Empire profits being part of it,
that is part of the definition of the Empire.

All sectors and sub-sectors that are some sort of autocratic part of the Imperium thus have governor proxies with enough political self awareness 
to consider this are only members becouse:

A.
Indoctrination.
They Inherited being a part of the Imperium
and would never ever consider question this.
B.
Power.
Because the Imperium crush them at every turn.
The space nation is simply that subdued.

C.
The Imperium does not value progress, wealth
and advanced civilization they way we do in real life.
It is likely that the sub galactic governors do not either,
thus they don't feel motivated by those things.

D.
It could happen, it does happen.

Every time its the same story.
Chaos, renegades going chaos, 
Assassins, Inquisitors.

All the other Xenos probably jump at
the Ultramar, because it is a sign of weakness.

It would end with the usual two front war,
rebels vs Emperium vs Xenos
and maybe Chaos as well.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ultramar needs the Imperium, for reasons already stated. It would have been wiped off the map long ago without the Imperium's protection. What does Ultramar lose by being part of the Imperium? Tithes? Well worth it.


They don't even have the burden of tithes. The worlds of Ultramar, as the fiefdom of the Ultramarines, don't have a tithe grade. Any regiments they do provide are completely voluntary. That they do so suggests once again that they value being a part of the Imperium and wish to remain so.



klaswullt said:


> Interesting post.
> 
> As I see it, no part of the Empire profits being part of it,
> that is part of the definition of the Empire.


Nonsense, many worlds profit from being part of the Imperium. For example Hive Worlds which rely on the Imperial Merchant Navy to import their food and export their products. Worlds which have been defended or liberated by the Imperial Guard are no doubt grateful for the existence of the Imperium. Every Imperial Govenor who can count on the aid of the Imperium to defend his world and to remove the dangerous psyker population is grateful to be a part of the Imperium.

The worlds of humanity are better off with the Imperium than without it.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To caveat what Rems just offered: no Imperium means no Astropaths and no Navigators. The result of that is taking non-Imperial planets back to the Age of Strife, when they were isolated and unable to connect with other holdings. It means being fair game to any number of xenos and chaotic forces that are not limited by these problems.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

This is actually interesting. Because, I could also argue that colonialism does that same thing in our world. Yet look at the dislike of a foreign power invading them? The Western Powers could have anhilated them, but they still fought. 

Sure it would have been a smart thing for Ultramar to stay with the Imperium. But doesn't Maccrage actually rely on its own sources for the astronomica, and probably has its own local support form the Mechanicum? What I mean is that based on the resources and worlds under Ultramar and I guess the 500 worlds around it, its more than likely that there are Mars colonies on them instead of waiting for resources on the other side of the galaxy. As far as the astronomica thing, I was pretty sure that the short story about Honsou after _The Chapter's Due_ mentioned that the cores underneath calth were meant to keep the world in tact as well as help with their fleets. I would have to read the damn thing again, but the problem with what people have said is that Ultramar relies on the Imperium on the other side of the Galaxy. That just doesn't seem very likely that Ultramar would be able to do so well if that was the case. Especially with all the problems with transportation that are likely to occur and the inconsistancies of the warp. These problems if they are true are very problematic and makes me wonder how they haven't been exterminated yet as Phoebus has suggested. I propose M'kar was a single case, and based on fluff I don't think Ultramar and even the empires and worlds surrounding it have been done justice yet.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Sure it would have been a smart thing for Ultramar to stay with the Imperium. But doesn't Maccrage actually rely on its own sources for the astronomica, ...


I don't see how.



> ... and probably has its own local support form the Mechanicum?


Why would that support remain once Ultramar seceded?



> What I mean is that based on the resources and worlds under Ultramar and I guess the 500 worlds around it, ...


There WERE 500 worlds in Ultramar. Then, the Word Bearers and the World Eaters showed up and destroyed a minimum of one hundred worlds in the process (by the end of "Betrayer").

Currently, there are only EIGHT worlds in Ultramar.



> I would have to read the damn thing again, but the problem with what people have said is that Ultramar relies on the Imperium on the other side of the Galaxy. That just doesn't seem very likely that Ultramar would be able to do so well if that was the case.


And yet it does. Just as Armageddon, Cypra Mundi and other prominent worlds and power centers are able to not just survive, but thrive (industrially speaking, if nothing else) despite their distance from the Imperium.



> Especially with all the problems with transportation that are likely to occur and the inconsistancies of the warp. These problems if they are true are very problematic and makes me wonder how they haven't been exterminated yet as Phoebus has suggested.


Because those problems are not as prominent as you propose. Otherwise, the Imperium wouldn't be as cohesive as it is?


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> This is actually interesting. Because, I could also argue that colonialism does that same thing in our world. Yet look at the dislike of a foreign power invading them? The Western Powers could have anhilated them, but they still fought.


By the 41st Millenium mankind's pretty much risen above nationalism, there are bigger things at stake; the survival of the human race as a whole. Imperial policy doesn't care where you're from, what gender you are or what your skin colour is. To the inhabitants of Ultramar the Imperium is not a foreign power, it's Humanity's empire. 



> . That just doesn't seem very likely that Ultramar would be able to do so well if that was the case. Especially with all the problems with transportation that are likely to occur and the inconsistancies of the warp. These problems if they are true are very problematic and makes me wonder how they haven't been exterminated yet as Phoebus has suggested. I propose M'kar was a single case, and based on fluff I don't think Ultramar and even the empires and worlds surrounding it have been done justice yet.


The average warp travel time from Ultramar to Terra is 4 to 7 months, and a lot less for closer planets (which would be the ones supplying Ultramar and sending military aid). That's no time at all on a galactic scale. Keeping Ultramar supplied and part of the empire is no great effort.


----------



## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

The very same reason that Germany benefits from being in the EU: its was a massive free market for their goods and cheap labour! 

I always thought of 30k as a free market but 40k a crazy command and control economy with steel allocations etc. 

Gulliman is nothing better than a massive blond Angela Merkel in my book.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> There WERE 500 worlds in Ultramar. Then, the Word Bearers and the World Eaters showed up and destroyed a minimum of one hundred worlds in the process (by the end of "Betrayer").
> 
> Currently, there are only EIGHT worlds in Ultramar.


I imagine that the 400 worlds that survived (or however many it ended up being) were broken up following the Heresy as part of Guilliman implementing his division of the Legiones Astartes into mere chapters--correspondingly, each chapter could only hold a few worlds as a fief. Ultramar and its several other worlds were the ones the Ultramarines kept. Fairly simple, all things considered.

As to why Ultramar stays in the Imperium? Loyalty, for one thing. All the great reasons that have been offered here. And the fact that the Imperium tends to crush whomever secedes, even if it is fraying at the edges more than usual right now.


----------



## NephirusDPoM (Jan 20, 2013)

No one knows what the hell Guilliman was thinking when he started his series of plans and political maneuvers post Horus Heresy. I've heard and read a lot of whining about Ultramarines that really is writers fault more so than the actual chapter/legion. The Ultramarines are actually ok as far as space marines go. They aren't invincible, infallible, or nearly as whiny as some people would have you believe though. The Ultramarines would lose more than they would ever gain. Starting a civil war to gain more control? I read a story along these lines once on 1d4chan that might be an interesting read(posted below). They neither have the mindset or the appropriate reasons to go forward with either secession or a coup at this point. Even if they pulled everything together, all their chapters, IG Regiments loyal to the region, Some Mechanicus members one way or the other, and Imperial Naval units, they still have a long list of Marine Chapters, IG Regiments, the Inquisition(Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters included), the Rest of the Imperial Navy, allied against them on one front, while Xenos and Demons pick them apart on the other. Thats assuming they can convince all of their Successor Chapters to join(I doubt everyone of them would). Even if, the chance for secret loyalists and guerrilla fighters alone would destroy any shot they'd have at cohesion. No upside, massive downside. End of story.

As someone writing a comic about a daemon Prince of Malal and an avid fan of Cegorach's work, I'd find it hilarious.

http://www.1d4chan.org/wiki/Macragge_heresy


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Why would that support remain once Ultramar seceded?
> 
> I think you still have a chocolate rainbow feeling about members of the Mechanicum. We have seen in the Honsou series and even other current 40k lore were they take the opportunity to serperate themselves from the Imperium in search of their ambition. Freedom my dear Phoebus is why they would remain.
> 
> ...


One of the biggest problems with this debate is that we assume that human beings think rationally and would understand the importance of sticking an being apart of the Imperium. However, when have humans ever thought that rationally? When has any country on this planet accepted such a philosophy? 

Perhaps thats just to complex to put into a fantasy world like 40k. But that brings up a new point in why they would create poster boys to be completely different and superior to the rest of the Imperial Armies when it just seems too good to be true.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

All told, you could make many of the same arguments about individual states in the United States, and I think it also comes down to issues of identity. By the time of the HH, from what I've seen, Ultramar is the Imperium and the Imperium is Ultramar. If you ask any New Yorker or Californian why they don't want to secede from the United States, they'd look at you as if you're absolutely bonkers, or from Texas perhaps. New York is the world center (or a world center) of finance, broadcast media, and fashion that only finds rivals from entire other nations. California, likewise, is a world center of technology and would be in the G-8 if it's economy was measured as an individual nation, not to mention having the worlds largest institutions of higher education through the California State University and the University of California systems. Both of these states feed far more in taxes into the greater country than they get out of them; about $.60 on the dollar.

But like I said, ask anyone in those states why they don't want to push to secede from the Union and see what answer you get. The folks identify as Americans and when they say "government" they typically mean the federal government, not their state capitol or city hall. This sense of identity is far more in-grained than any incidental calculation of cost-benefit that exists in the moment, or even the strategic thinking of what it would mean 200-400 years from now.

What the Imperium brings to Ultramar is a sense of identity that they are part of the very foundation of humanity itself in the galaxy and Ultramar brings to the Imperium a beacon for what humanity can achieve. By the time of 40K, Ultramar has been in the Imperium for around 10,000 years, which is 20+ times longer than McCragge could boast even having more than it's own bad self to be in control of.

While you may decide to move out of your parents home for independence, you're still part of the family and you still better damn well call on Mother's Day or risk getting your ears boxed.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think you still have a chocolate rainbow feeling about members of the Mechanicum. We have seen in the Honsou series and even other current 40k lore were they take the opportunity to serperate themselves from the Imperium in search of their ambition. Freedom my dear Phoebus is why they would remain.


That's an assumption, though. You don't know that this one Mechanicum world would join them for sure. And even if it did, that one world would not offset all the other disadvantages that the 40k universe entails.



> Sure, but their hero is still Guilliman. At least to most of them. If they were asked who their Imperial Hero was I would assume most of them would be looking at Guilliman and not the heros of their independent planets. They would take the credit for his legacy to feel proud about that. They'd be crazy not to.


I'm not sure what your point is here. Of course Guilliman is the hero of Ultramar. That was never in doubt. I'm talking about how likely Ultramar is to survive on its own. You mentioned five hundred worlds; I pointed out that there actually are only EIGHT.



> The Imperium is the way it is. And obviously Ultramar is where they are. But to me, the way Ultramar is set up, it doesn't make much sense to me why even before the coming of the Emperor or during the Great Crusade the citizens and armies of Ultramar didn't take a look around and go... we are better than everybody else.


Meaning no disrespect, I would re-read the Index Astartes for the Ultramarines. There was no "Ultramar" prior to the arrival of the Emperor. Macragge, as a planet, had maintained its industries and kept up contact with _nearby systems._ It was much better off than the rest of the disparate human realms, but it was not a stellar empire. Even after Roboute took over Macragge, his control was limited to one planet.

It was Guilliman who made Ultramar what it was, and he did so using the industry of the growing Imperium. Macragge on its own had neither the resources or the manpower to bring to life the Ultramarines Legion as we know it, its fleet, or its other armies.



> They have their own culture, they have their own power, they have the most powerful armies and astartes fighting force, and yet they just bow


Because they recognize that, on its own, an empire of that size cannot survive in the long-term. Evidence of this has already been pointed out. :wink:



> One of the biggest problems with this debate is that we assume that human beings think rationally and would understand the importance of sticking an being apart of the Imperium. However, when have humans ever thought that rationally? When has any country on this planet accepted such a philosophy?


It's not just about rationality. Loyalty comes into play as well. Cultural assimilation has its role. Then there's the effect that your greatest, most superhuman and messianic hero EVER being the son of the god-like conqueror of the entire galaxy can have on a society. Or the fact that the paragons of said society ended up being the superhuman warriors derived from the genetic matter of said messiah... and that this has gone on for ten millennia now. Or the fact that said paragons are absolutely devoted to the vision of their messiah gene-father, which was inextricably tied to the well-being of the Imperium.

But even if you took away all these factors, there are real-world examples that show how this is possible. For instance, why were Greek-speaking people so proud to call themselves Romans for over fourteen hundred years?



> Perhaps thats just to complex to put into a fantasy world like 40k. But that brings up a new point in why they would create poster boys to be completely different and superior to the rest of the Imperial Armies when it just seems too good to be true.


Please elaborate. 

Cheers!


----------



## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> To caveat what Rems just offered: no Imperium means no Astropaths and no Navigators. The result of that is taking non-Imperial planets back to the Age of Strife, when they were isolated and unable to connect with other holdings. It means being fair game to any number of xenos and chaotic forces that are not limited by these problems.


Without the Astropaths, it is still possible to use the warp
in a much slower and more limited way
but its still faster than light speed.

Age of Strife wasn't that bad, if the world could defend itself.
Not being in the Imperium would allow some more weapons
and tactics. In the Age of Strife, the planets where not organised
nor prepared.

They can as the Squats, use technology without the Machine Cult
and build AI, robots and use technology more efficiently.
With some plotting skill, they can hire Dark Eldar and Ork mercenaries and other xenos to use "xeno kill xeno".
They can use as many ab humans they like
and have as many psykers they like. 
They could trade with craftworld Eldar and Tau instead.

If they drug and brainwash their population, 
to a calm low emotional and orderly state,
there wouldn't be any native deamon generation.


I know. Any hive planet in a star system does not need warp
to use the in system planets.
Any planet that is not polluted and depleted of everything
like Hive worlds. would be better off
cultural, scientifically everything without the Imperium.
Without the Imperium they would be allowed to
build robots and AI, to freely use psykers
and Abhumans. 
They could even be a democracy!
There are a lot of planet types that are less dependent.
Also the humans can travel space, without the warp
but much slower.

Actually. If you are willing to speculate.
They could grow their food in space stations
and travel space in stasis sleep.
They can mine their moons, and terraform gas giants into planets
What could they possible need?







thebinman said:


> The very same reason that Germany benefits from being in the EU: its was a massive free market for their goods and cheap labour!
> 
> I always thought of 30k as a free market but 40k a crazy command and control economy with steel allocations etc.
> 
> Gulliman is nothing better than a massive blond Angela Merkel in my book.


Germany is economical trashed, EU is nothing but France and UKs
attempt to suck out the life of healthy nations
while recreating their colonialism with FN and USA as a facade.
The Germans are social democrats, the French insane
and the British are fake centrist left quasi-liberal conservative
Still, the Germans actually they can fix their economy with EU.


EU, doesn't work, it is corrupt and we have only had economical crisis after crisis, all it does it tightening control over the market
and giving away money to the south European backwater
nations in a wain hope to bribe them from becoming 
fascists again.
Eu is nothing but rotting leftist carcass of the Soviet Union.
Sorry, but real life comparison makes me angry.
Real life politics, is not a fact!
The Imperium is NOT a happy free market utopia.




Rems said:


> They don't even have the burden of tithes. The worlds of Ultramar, as the fiefdom of the Ultramarines, don't have a tithe grade. Any regiments they do provide are completely voluntary. That they do so suggests once again that they value being a part of the Imperium and wish to remain so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha. The Imperium is the hardest totalitarian
dystopia in human history.

The hive worlds are layers of layers of urban hells
that makes the movie Metropolis look like a kindergarden.
Only the small noble elite in the hives have anything remotely worth living for. Most are left to kill each other.
No one is grateful for anything.
The planets "defended" are nothing but mass recruiting camps;
subject to genocide, oppression and arbitrary execution.

All those planets are dependent on the Imperium
because well the Imperium stip mined and global warming
polluted those hives so they become as toxid as venus.
Its not like the economy nor the bureaucratic civics of the Imperium remotely works.
In fact, Hive often dies in starvation because of bureaucratic gold fish memory.

Any planet would be better on its own, but that would be Chaos somehow and purge!, purge!.



The only reason anyone is loyal to the Imperium
is because the dangers of mutation, daemons are everywhere,
xenos are everywhere and traitors and heretics.
It's Paranoia feeding dicatorship.
1984 in space.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

klaswullt said:


> Without the Astropaths, it is still possible to use the warp
> in a much slower and more limited way
> but its still faster than light speed.


You mean Navigators. :wink:

It's a moot point, either way. Without Navigators, you don't have capable enough stellar travel to maintain the sort of empire that can survive in 40k. The Tau have been able to survive this long precisely because they haven't been the focal point of attacks by Chaos, and they aren't large enough territorially to be a constant target of Orks or Tyranids.



> Age of Strife wasn't that bad, if the world could defend itself.


And here I thought one of the basic themes of this universe was that the Age of Strife was the defining age of darkness, which left humanity isolated and vulnerable to all sorts of dangers...



> Not being in the Imperium would allow some more weapons
> and tactics. ...


What other weapons? Within the Imperium, the driving force of manufacture is the Adeptus Mechanicus. Of course, the most limiting factor to innovation is ALSO the Adeptus Mechanicus, but the fact remains that when you remove them from the equation you also lose the technology and production capability needed to make your news weapons to begin with. It's a fool's errand to argue that isolated human communities would somehow be able to force the local Adeptus Mechanicus to give up their capabilities intact. It's a matter of religion for them.



> In the Age of Strife, the planets where not organised
> nor prepared.


Left isolated, do you think Ultramar would find itself in a better situation in the long run?

They don't have the facilities to achieve the Soul Binding. Ergo, within a single generation (extended as it might be by rejuvenat treatments), they'd have no safe Astropaths. Their only mode of interstellar communication would be the Chapter's Librarians. A couple dozen Librarians are not enough to maintain the massive amounts of communication necessitated by a multi-planet empire and its armed forces.

They would have only a certain number of Navigators. Their only hope of starting an effective breeding and training program (and that's assuming the Navigators would sign off on what amounted to treason against the Imperium to which their Houses have sworn allegiance to) would be to pull Navigators off of ships. This would leave lower their fleet unable to respond in a timely fashion to the ever-increasing dangers of the 40k galaxy.

They don't have the military might to keep their realm independent in the long run. They needed the Imperium to keep out the Tyranids. They were barely able to defeat an alliance between a daemon and a Warsmith who didn't even represent the apex of what the Traitor Legions or the forces of Chaos can bring to bear.

And that's Ultramar - described as the *envy* of other planets for their self-sufficiency. How would a hive world, with a population dependent on other worlds for food, survive when starships bringing in imports slowed down to 10% their current speed? How would a system without shipyards replace their defense fleet? How would a world that somehow still made tanks, artillery pieces, etc., get masses of them from one world to another without the massive transport fleets of the Imperium?



> They can as the Squats, use technology without the Machine Cult
> and build AI, robots and use technology more efficiently.


No, that's an assumption. The actual truth of the matter is that the Imperium, unlike the Squats, is dependent on the Adeptus Mechanicum for most technology and for the most crucial manufacturing needs. The Adepts of Mars control technology and guard it very jealously.



> With some plotting skill, they can hire Dark Eldar and Ork mercenaries and other xenos to use "xeno kill xeno".


No offense, but are you serious? Human beings in the Imperium are typically very xenophobic. About the only alliances they have been seen making are either with Chaos (when corrupted) or with the Tau (who sell great propaganda about the Greater Good, everyone working in harmony, etc.). Working with sadistic slavers and bloodthirsty monsters, both of whom have been known to betray anyone to get what they want, though?

And that's just talking about normal people. The only thing that makes less sense than Ultramar betraying their oaths to the Imperium is them forging alliances with their hated enemies afterwards.



> They can use as many ab humans they like
> and have as many psykers they like.


Actually, no. Psykers are the greatest dangers to human society. They require extensive training by organizations that are either controlled by Terra (for Astropaths, Sanctioned Psykers, etc.) or by the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes (for Librarians). Without that training, they are ticking time bombs and their every use of the Warp only brings them closer to corruption or destruction. And that's another fundamental theme of 40k, by the way.



> They could trade with craftworld Eldar and Tau instead.


Except the Craftworld Eldar are notorious for their untrustworthiness, and the Tau exist only in a specific part of the galaxy.



> If they drug and brainwash their population,
> to a calm low emotional and orderly state,
> there wouldn't be any native deamon generation.


Sure, and then you lose productivity, aggression in your fighting forces, etc. To say nothing of the myriads of other things that could go wrong there.



> Any planet that is not polluted and depleted of everything
> like Hive worlds. would be better off
> cultural, scientifically everything without the Imperium.


Until a significant enough incursion of Chaos, Orks, Necrons, Eldar (Craftworld or Dark), etc., shows up. And then, without the sort of military power that the Imperium makes possible (by pooling up resources from many systems), they're doomed.

Seriously, think about it. How many defenses does a developed world have? A single strike cruiser and its escorts are designed to successfully enable an invasion by Space Marines on most worlds. A single warship can, over a period of hours or days, devastate an entire civilization. Those resources are available to even third-rate Chaos Space Marine warbands looking for loot. Look at Codex: Chaos Space Marines for all the examples of random bands (not famous folks like Abaddon, Kharn, or Huron Blackheart) wiping out entire hive worlds.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

klaswullt said:


> They can as the Squats, use technology without the Machine Cult
> and build AI, robots and use technology more efficiently.
> With some plotting skill, they can hire Dark Eldar and Ork mercenaries and other xenos to use "xeno kill xeno".
> They can use as many ab humans they like
> ...


First of all there are Imperial planets which are democracies. Pavonis for example before it suffered an alien led coup. The Imperium doesn't care what the local government is, as long as they worship the emperor and provide the tithe. 

Secondly the chances of Ultramar being able to advance in A.I technology etc are very slim. It's the Mechanicus who have a stranglehold on technology, no one outside their ranks knows how things work. Ultramar will not be able to advance on it's own, pretty soon they wouldn't even be able to maintain what they had. 




> Haha. The Imperium is the hardest totalitarian
> dystopia in human history.


This is a generalisation, those are bad. 

Not ever planet, not even most planets, in the Imeprium are war ravaged hell holes. Look at Pavonis, Tarsis Ultra, or the worlds in the Eisenhorn or Ravenor books. Most Imperial worlds are chugging along doing their own thing, paying the Imperial tithe. We only hear about the destroyed ones, the war embroiled ones, because this is a setting for a wargame. 



> The hive worlds are layers of layers of urban hells
> that makes the movie Metropolis look like a kindergarden.
> Only the small noble elite in the hives have anything remotely worth living for. Most are left to kill each other.
> No one is grateful for anything.
> ...


That's your interpretation, but not every world is like that, again you're generalisng. There are a million different worlds in the Imperium, that's a million different cultures, ways of living and standards of living. 



> All those planets are dependent on the Imperium
> because well the Imperium stip mined and global warming
> polluted those hives so they become as toxid as venus.
> Its not like the economy nor the bureaucratic civics of the Imperium remotely works.
> ...


This whole 'everyone would be better off without the Imperium' is so wrong for all the reasons previously pointed out in this thread. The galaxy of the 41st millenium is a hostile place. Every sentient alien race either wants to kill/enslave/eat humanity or cares nothing for its fate. Without the organisation and military power of the Imperium, humanity likely wouldn't exist. No one world can stand against all the horrors of the galaxy. The Imperium is harsh and uncaring yes, but not out of malevolence, but neccessity. It doesn't have the time or resources to make sure every Imperial citizen is fed, or gets a vote, or has luxuries. It's concerned with the survival of the human race by whatever means necessary.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

I was a US Marine. I was fiercely loyal to the idea of the United States even if I think the country, like the rest of the world, is full of degenerate, self absorbed fucktards, lol.


Just because the Ultramarines might recognize that the Imperium is a decrepit, corrupt shadow of what it once was, it's still the only hope of humanity. 


One thing of note, part of the reason why Ultramar was no longer 500 worlds would have been the dissolution of the Legion at the Second Founding. Some worlds would have gone to the Second Founding chapters, and the rest would have gone back to the Imperium and now be part of the Ultima Segmentum.


----------

