# Lifespan of space marines



## Erich

Hi all,
Sorry if this has been covered before, I can't find it in the forums.
How long do space marines live, assuming they aren't killed.
And what does a chapter do with a brother who becomes to old to fight anymore? Put him in a dreadnaught?
Thanks
-Erich


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## maddermax

I've heard the number 400 trotted out a couple of times, though I'm not sure exactly where that's from, but most die in battle before they reach that age. Chaos Space marines tend to live rather longer though, due to the effects of living in warp space (eye of terror ect.), and there are still plenty of CSMs around who were part of the original legions during the Horus heresy 10,000 years earlier. 

I think Dreadnoughts tend to be space marines wounded in battle rather than just really old space marines however I can't say i'm fully familiar with the fluff on that.


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## Khorne's Fist

Marines are more or less immortal. Dante, the Blood Angel chapter master is 1200 years old I think, and Logan Grimnar has commanded the Space Wolves for 700 years or so. Most of the Chaos marines are 10,000 years old, though they have had some help from the Warp with that. But the nature of the job and the law of averages don't lend themselves to Marines reaching retirement age.


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## Captain Toal

i got you erich. the number 400 is Marneus Calgar, chapter master of the Ultramarines. here's the kicker Chapter Master Dante of the Blood Angels is 1,100 years old and still kickin like a son of bitch. 

due to their enhanced biology space marines can literally live forever without their bodies failing or weakening they just age in the face lol. it says this in the HH novels when talking about Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves and Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard. Qruze was with the Emperor in the Unification Wars on Terra and lived through the Horus Heresy and as far as we know is still alive as one of the Inquisitors who is at the very top of the ladder fighting the xenos. Garro was with the Death Guard since they left Terra at their founding and is therefore very old but is quite arguably their best captain. he, also, lived through the Horus Heresy and, like Qruze, became one of the first three inquisitors, one for each branch, but unlike Qruze his was to fight the daemon, Qruze the alien and Amendera Kendel the heretical witch. as far as we know Garro is still alive. 

so space marines are a sad irony in that they are immortal to death except in battle which is exactly where they are 99% of their lives so most die on the battlefield.


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## LeeHarvey

Good Answer Toal.


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## CallumM27

yeah what Khorne's Fist and Cap Toal said  marines are immortal but only have the average life span of 150-200 years. Danta is actually older because the codex says he's been chapter master for 1100 years so he'll be a few hundred years older still :shok: and theres dreadnoughts who have been around since the crusade.


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## XV8crisis

dunno i heard when a veteran marine is really badly injured in battle they interr him into a dreadnought. According to fluff, some dreadnoughts fighting in the 41st millenium actually fought alongside the emperor during the horus heresy. (Of course then they were just marines)



______________________________________________________________________
Moonwalking into battle is a punishable offence and against thine emperor's divine will.


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## Erich

Well, I guess that answers that. I was curious because I just finished novel where a chapter apothocary mentioned he was 600 years old and with luck would serve the Emperer for another 200 years or so. (course he gets killed by the end of the book).
Man that kinda bites. "Join the Space Marines and live forever, unless you are, ya know killed in combat".


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## arhain

IN the new blood angels codex, it mentions in the fluff, that blood angels live longer lives than other spacemarines due to a mutation.

I'm sure i read something that space wolves live longer as well from mutation

and chaos space marines sit inside the warp which as we know screws up time and space, so in theory chaos spacemarines could be only very new or very old.


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## Baron Spikey

Captain Toal said:


> Garro was with the Death Guard since they left Terra at their founding and is therefore very old but is quite arguably their best captain. he, also, lived through the Horus Heresy and, like Qruze, became one of the first three inquisitors, one for each branch, but unlike Qruze his was to fight the daemon, Qruze the alien and Amendera Kendel the heretical witch. as far as we know Garro is still alive.


See the trouble with this theory is that the Ordo Hereticus wasn't formed till 6,000 years after the Horus Heresy, just after the Age of Apostasy.

Not sure where you got this info from but I don't believe it.


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## Red Geist

I asked one the manager of my local GW, he said that they are probably as close to immortal as science can allow them.

Dante = 1,100
Logan (can't spell last name) = 1,500
High Marshal Ludoldus = about 4,000

Dreadnoughts can preserve humans for as long as their brain can stay in one peice.


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## Djinn24

13th Company is what 10,000 years old as well?

The Emp is over 40k years old IIRC, he was around in our day and age as well.


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## Wreska

If they are nearly immortal how long does the training take for an neophyte/scout to become one (i read through the whole BT codex and all they said is that it takes as long as the initiate wants)


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## Gambit14

I thought Dante was the oldest Commander?
I dont think they are immortal since in the rulebooks and codex, it hints that the Gene Flaw of the Blood Angels lets them live longer than most space marines. I think most space marines turn to Dreadnoughts though, like I made a Captain Tycho dreadnought since he died.


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## The Son of Horus

Dante is the oldest living Space Marine at 1100 years old. There is no record of how old Logan Grimnar is, but Space Wolves are noted to age physically more quickly than most Space Marines. If I had to hazard a guess, given that Grimnar is a Chapter Master, I'd bet he's around five or six hundred years old. In the artwork (and the model) his fangs are long enough to back that up, as well. He's certainly at least 400. The current High Marshal of the Black Templars is Helbrecht-- Ludolus was killed in action.

Keep in mind that time works differently in the immaterium. The 13th Company of the Space Wolves, as well as the Traitor Legionnaires, are ten thousand years old purely by our reckoning. How long has actually passed for them is up in the air. Certainly, a while, don't get me wrong-- but probably not ten thousand years by how we experience time.

Space Marines are functionally immortal-- nobody knows how old they can possibly make it to, since they are doomed to die on the battlefield. An aspirant's training takes as long as it's needed, pretty universally. That being said, most who survive their training to initiation recieve their black carapace around their mid-twenties or early thirties. Keep in mind that an aspirant is chosen when he is somewhere between six and twelve years old-- much older, and the gene therapy required to activate the artificial organs doesn't take. Space Marine Scouts are, in Codex Chapters at least, uninitiated brethren-- that means that they have not undergone the Phase 19 surgery which puts in the black carapace and allows them to interact with power armour fully, as well as provide an additional endoskeleton. Serving in the Tenth Company is usually considered the trial by fire, and when there is space amongst the ranks of the Reserve Companies due to reorganization due to battlefield casualties, individuals are initiated with merit giving precidence over age. 

In the case of non-Codex Chapters, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, initiation practices vary. In the case of the Space Wolves, being chosen to become a Space Marine is enough, and there is no tenure spent on the battlefield as an uninitiated brother-- the Blood Claw packs are the proving grounds of the Space Wolves. Wolf Scouts are individuals who tend to have lost their packs, have an unusual independent streak, etc., and wear the lighter scout armour because it's practical for sneaking around and sabotaging stuff, not because they're uninitiated and can't physically wear the power armour the Space Marines do. 

The Black Templars have a sort of squire system set up. Generally, initiation is by pure merit-- when the initiate doesn't have anything more to teach his neophyte, or the need dictates and there's an apothecary around, then the neophyte recieves his black carapace.

Most Space Marines who are killed in action are simply that-- killed in action. To become a dreadnought means that their value to the Chapter is such that they cannot be allowed to die, due to tactical acumen, strength at arms, insight into a certain kind of enemy, etc. Simply being a Space Marine and dying in the Emperor's service isn't enough. More practically, a Chapter only has around thirty sarcophagi on average, so there has to be a place to put the dreadnought-to-be in order to keep them alive. Old age isn't enough to become a dreadnought, either-- the same service can be rendered by an old Space Marine who still wears his power armour as one who no longer can and takes to the field in a Dreadnought instead. Think of Dreadnoughts as wheelchairs for those who have suffered serious injuries. If you're just old, then you get a cane. If you don't have legs, you get bionics. If half of you is missing but you're somehow still alive, then you might get the dreadnought.


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## Captain Toal

as for baron spikey i got it from the HH novel Flight of the Eisenstein. at the end when malcador meets with them he basically is starting the inquisition. read it. although he doesnt say it outright you can fully get what he is saying, a book doesnt always have to outright say what it means unless you cant understand when people talk like that. if you want i can get the passage and page number for you.

some people say it may be speculation but that's a load of horse shit if i ever heard it. they may not have "Officially" started the inquisition or at least parts of it until 6000 years or whatever you said but i gaurentee that that was the fate of those warriors.


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## Red Geist

The BT aspirant training takes longer because they shadow a Marine in a tactical squad right after getting every implant. Normal Marine training normally takes 4 - 7 months I think, but the battle doctrine of a chapter makes this number vary or supports a totally seperate process.

There are multiple High Marshals, one for every Crusade, the Templars have no 'Chapter Master' or one of the High Marshals leading the others. Where does it say Ludoldus was KIA? I have a model of him I don't want to go to waste for fluff purposes.

I heard Logan Grimnar was the oldest non-Dread of the entire Space Marines, I used to think Ludoldus was until a guy at my store shoved the Space Wolves Codex in my face, giving context of his age to be in the four digit area. But many sources lead me to believe that he is anywhere from 700 to 10,000 years old.

CSMs are immortal/undead through Chaos magic, the immaterium is the Warp, but I thought the Eye of Terror was some pocket of warped space with the chaos worlds inside


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## Captain Toal

ok Baron Spikey here it is.

_Malcador inclined his head in a tiny gesture. "There is a matter to which you will be set, not today, perhaps not for many months, but eventually. The Warmaster's disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance."

"We are ready," said Garro with a nod. "*I* am ready."

"Yes," replied the Sigillite,"you are."_

Page 404 paragraph 3 in the Horus Heresy novel The Flight of the Eisenstein.


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## ironhammer

I Think that in reality even the space marine's augmentations can't stop time's inevitable toll, and there is probably a point where their features will simply start to fail due to being old. The projected lifespan of a space marine is probably documented somewhere so chapter's will know when to consider retirement, but since it is so rare for them to reach that age that knowledge is probably buried somewhere in the imperial records and forgotten, my guess is 1000 years give or take for normal chapters, another 1000-2000 years if they were injured and intured in a dreadnought.


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## Red Geist

SM Implants don't just keep them going, it's the Power Armor. Bionics can help along the line too. And most of the more famous marines are past 1000 years old.

Don't underestimate the power of Science Fiction, the Emperor needed warriors to fight any enemy for as long as the war would go on. So he used genetic augmentation and power armor to create the ultimate soldier, and so he did.


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## Carna

I didn't think SMs retired, I always thought they fought until they died.


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## Khorne's Fist

Captain Toal said:


> ok Baron Spikey here it is.
> 
> _Malcador inclined his head in a tiny gesture. "There is a matter to which you will be set, not today, perhaps not for many months, but eventually. The Warmaster's disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance."
> 
> "We are ready," said Garro with a nod. "*I* am ready."
> 
> "Yes," replied the Sigillite,"you are."_
> 
> Page 404 paragraph 3 in the Horus Heresy novel The Flight of the Eisenstein.


Dead right. In Horus Heresy Collected Visions Malcador presents the Emperor with eight marines who have foresworn their legions because they turned traitor to the Emperor, as the the Emperor had told him to find "people of inquisitive nature who will work from the shadows". Put the two books together and there is no doubt about it.

And don't bother with the argument that HHCC is not strictly canon. It's published by GW, and edited by Alan Merrit, the man in charge of 40k fluff. It doesn't come any more canonical.

Carna, some marines to retire from active service, if not from the chapter. They take up research or training posts, where their centuries of experience might be a lot more valuable to their chapter than simply being another body on the battlefield.



> If I had to hazard a guess, given that Grimnar is a Chapter Master, I'd bet he's around five or six hundred years old.


Grimnar has been Great Wolf for 700 years, so it could be assumed he was at least a couple of centuries old when he took up the post. It wouldn't be a stretch to say he might be 1000 years old.


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## revenant13

i read somewhere (cant remember where though...) that SM's are genetically and physically enhanced so that they CANT die from old age. i know Bjorn Fellhand is 10k yrs old. althought he only wakes up once every 1k yrs or if the space wolves really need him. Im guessing as SM get older they need a lot more rest more frequently, but wont ever have to worry about dying from age.


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## Baron Spikey

Captain Toal said:


> ok Baron Spikey here it is.
> 
> _Malcador inclined his head in a tiny gesture. "There is a matter to which you will be set, not today, perhaps not for many months, but eventually. The Warmaster's disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance."
> 
> "We are ready," said Garro with a nod. "*I* am ready."
> 
> "Yes," replied the Sigillite,"you are."_
> 
> Page 404 paragraph 3 in the Horus Heresy novel The Flight of the Eisenstein.


Yeah I've already read this book a couple of times, but the crap you were spouting about the Garro, Qruze, and Kendel forming certain sections is still wrong.
They MIGHT have formed the Inquisition, but if you don't actually known the more well know background don't start preaching as if what your saying is fact.


According to the SW Codex (3rd Ed.) Logan Grimnar is 800 yrs old and has been leading the Space Wolves for just over 500 years (so that would tie in with the 1st Battle of Armageddon).


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## lawrence96

lol think of it OAP SM, imagine if your gran was like a SM at the equivalent age? scary!


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## Farseer Beltiac

I thought the oldest was around 1000 or so but technically they can't die of old age.....I might be wrong...


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## Baron Spikey

Well Blood Angels and their successors are generally granted a longer life than marines from other origins, the way the BA codex (3rd ed. not the WD one) words it it would seem to indicate that there is a life span for a marine, otherwise why point out that Blood Angels have a longer one?

Dante from what I can infer is older than 1,100 years- that's, roughly, how long he's been chapter master.


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## Captain Toal

might have? its right there in front of your face! ust becuase it doesnt say it outright doesnt mean that it doesnt say it at all. as for the different branches of the Inquisitition i was speculating there but as for the beginnings of the Inquisition itself, there you have it. what did they just go off and clean toilets or some shit like that? what else could they have been tasked too? and i suppose you know ALL of the backround on the Inquisition and the fates of all those in the Heresy? i know i dont but that paragraph pretty much screams Inquisition birth. 

as for that other statement about how the emperor told malcador to gather men of inquisitive nature and he came up with eight who had forsworn their legions cuz they turned to chaos, well there's at least two for you. all im saying is you cant seriously believe that beginning the Inquisition was not what at least Qruze and Garro did.


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## Triangulum

To the two of you arguing about the fluff, the standard GW histories has the marines from the traitor legions providing the gene seed stock to Chapter 666 aka the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus comes much later, as said in their codex, so some of Malcador's words have to be taken as a prediction. Further given that the GW universe is expansive and fluid, how about not bitching each other out on a message board. 

Toal, your interpretation is countered by years of stuff that has been written. End of Story, just read the codexes for the witch hunters and daemonhunters and it proves you're wrong.

The point is though that they can change the rules whenever they want to on the history. The missing legions, lots of stuff, oh and considering that if you include short stories, white dwarf and other stuff there is over 50000 pages of 40K out there if either of you have read it all, I applaud you and would recommend you for psychiatric evaluation. So how about getting back on topic.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

well the way i see it is they arent immortal cuz they all eventually die in combat right? unless of course they get put into a dreadnought


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## KellysGrenadier

They could be seen as immortal, but not invulnerable/invincible.


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## Dead4XxX

I think that they are indeed immortal and they die during combat.

And to that person that said how the BA Codex explains that a Blood Angel Marine has a longer lifespan than regular marines, couldnt this mean that they are more skilled in combat or are good survivalists?

I dunno, just my 2 cents.


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## Khorne's Fist

Dead4XxX said:


> And to that person that said how the BA Codex explains that a Blood Angel Marine has a longer lifespan than regular marines, couldnt this mean that they are more skilled in combat or are good survivalists?


No, it is a reference to their physiological trait rather than being better fighters. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you're caught in an artillery barrage you're as dead as the next man.


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## Captain Toal

sorry guys. i apologise spikey, i didnt need to get heated.

as for the topic at hand i dont see why a marine cant live and fight for a very long time, i mean look at Dante he's old as hell and still kicking as like nobodies buisness. they just become very superb fighters and very very wise so it makes it harder to kill them unless they get hit by artillery or lost in the warp.


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## Red Geist

Space Marines use technology to expand thier life span and become immune to disease, so they are techincally not immortal. Chaos Space Marines use Daemon magic, so they are absolutely (that being the key word) unable to die of aging or disease. This allows them the title of immortal or undead.

The implants improve physical dexterity and endurance, while Power Armor provides the ability to maintain thier internal health balanced while providing excellent defence. This may lead to prove that Space Marines age slower.


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## Cool_CR

*OK here we go.*

Right now first off i read loads of the blacklibrary stuff Now lets start with Chaos SM they can live for ever as we in 40k can see from Abadon and others were there with the Emperor and Hours 10thousand years ago. But some of the other chaos followers live just as long or longer one chap From Demon World was from before the time of the fall of the eldar and that's going back to before the imperium. (Demon primarches are almost true immortals they die but they can come back again and again its good to be evil.)

Now back literal to reality (or as close to as 40k ever gets.) we have the space wolf's dreadnought Bjorn the Fell-Handed some 10 thousand years old. But he's starting to feel the burden of his years.

Blood angles (and some of there successor chapters) Live longer than normal space marines as many have said Dante has lived well over 1000 years and is still in active service he is an exception to the rule.

Normal space marines are retiring at a mere 6 - 700 years. Ultra marines have a chaplain at 600 and they all think he should retire. There is graynight who has retired in the book Graynights he watches over the reliquary.

If you think about it there is actual a lot to do some of the retired stay at the monastery as instructors you wouldn't want to loose all that battle experience would you. Some captain the SM ship others just do the paper work. They live a very long time i mean at least another 40% after retirement. 

Even the original Primarches were not immortal.

Read the recent Bloodravens book there is a old librarian who is doing archeology and thinking about retiring from active service to pursue that calling.

But Joe average can make 300 years if he is rich and can get cyber implants and rejuvenation treatments thats 40k for you.


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## Red Geist

Space Marines have a larger lifespan then seven centuries. The real trick that allows them to do this is a combo of the genetic augmentations and the integration of thier power armor. I'd be willing to have a big circuit board on the lower layers of skin on my chest if my lifespan was indefinate. Space Marines are not immortal, we just don't know how long their lifespan is.

The science behind it is the idea that the integrated armor greatly helps maintain a stable body temperature and keeps the wearer at thier peak physical condition, which is already at a superhuman level. Cassius is felt to be to old to fight probably because he acts old. Dante is one of the Blood Angels, so he has an excuse. Dreadnoughts have life support systems beyond our capacity to comprehend, but they keep the user alive indefinately. But a few other noted Marine heroes are past that mark. High Marshal Ludoldous is 4000 and Logan Grimnar is in the 1500 - 2000 year range.

But if the Power Armor truly does what I hypothesized above, Space Marines would age slower than an average human.


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## Cool_CR

I wonder how long the human/eldar hybrid spacemarine lived the ultra marines used to have at least one he was there head librarian back in the days before the nids ate all the squats. (thats back when they were a 3rd founding though)
GW would like to forget that existed.

O the shame proud pure Ultra Marines with xeons blood in there ranks.


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## normtheunsavoury

I do remember reading in one of the HH books that SM live forever, but are a paradox because they will never have the chance and will die in battle.
Maybe the whole immortality thing is Imperial propaganda "Join the Space Marines, blow shit up, get a bloody great big gun and live forever! The Empire Needs You!"
Seeing as all SM are doomed to die in battle who is ever going to live long enough to prove them wrong?
As for the retired SM, I've not read the fluff so I don't know for certain, but surely all the psycho-indoctrination that turns them into killing machines would leave them too messed up for civilian life. A geriatric SM with road rage would be an awesome sight!


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## Lord Reevan

As has been said before grimnar is 900 years old at max. Lodulos I've only ever heard him reaching 1000, Bjorn yes is hitting the 10k mark, as are a lot of other dreads.

Now for the actual written guarantees

Cassius is the oldest non dread member of the ultramarines and is only 400. 
Dante is the oldest recorded loyalist marine as he is over 1300, 1100 as chapter master, probably took that title after at least 200 years.
It states in the BA codex that blood angels live for longer than normal marines. Saying that they live *longer* means that they are not immortal as how can you live longer than forever??


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## Red Geist

They say Blood Angels live longer because they don't establish the lifespan of Marines to begin with. Since the only thing close to immortality is the ability to live indefinately. Blood Angels probably have a smaller chance of thier implants failing, stronger dexterity, and little internal (organs/implants) aging.


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## BloodAngelZeros

Technically, if they don't die in battle, SM will live forever. No disease, poison, age, etc. will kill them. But they're not built to last forever technically. It's more of a side effect of their modified bodies. Many of the same things that keep them alive in battle (all the organs and such that neutralize poisons and such and their bodies regenerative capabilites ) also impart those benefits, if again, they don't die in battle. From what I've read, in Blood Angels: Omnibus Dante was referenced as being millenia old (don't quote me though. But I am fairly sure it _was_ mentioned that he was thousands of years old). But then again, in that same book, Dante now holds an office position....


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## Lord Reevan

He could be. It only says that he is chapter master for 1100 years. he could have been 900 when he got the job. 
They can die of old age as in the "Ascension" blood ravens book didn't it mention somewhere about that old librarian being ready to die after retiring? 

For me the BA codex and I think the SW codex say they live longer than any other space marines; not through better implants, better fighting skills, just they live longer. saying they live longer shows that they can die as you cannot live longer than forever and I would like to see someone Actually give proof where it says that space marines are immortal. Not trying to be a prick, I just see evidence which points one way andnone that points the other.


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## Amra_the_lion

ok time for printed facts (from old codexes)

Dante may not be the eldest space marine.
Pg 93 angels of death - veteran sergeant cleutin - may have commanded dantes scout squad
Dante is more than 1100 years old
pg 92 codex angels of death - "ruled for over 1100 years!"

Dreadnought pilots live extremely long
pg 54 - codex ultramarines - The memories of some date back tens of centuries


marines show signs of aging at 300
pg 73 codex ultramarines - Chaplain Cassius - he is four hundred


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## BloodAngelZeros

Well, the one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that SM, being bred for battle, don't even _want_ to live forever unless they're fighting. There's countless examples of this I'm sure. Hell, if I were a SM, the only thing I would want to do is deal in warfare.


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## Camaris

> Dreadnought pilots live extremely long
> pg 54 - codex ultramarines - The memories of some date back tens of centuries


This is because they spend most of their days asleep in stasis fields.


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## Amra_the_lion

understood. lays more credibility to space marines not living forever


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## BenedictWolfe

Space Marines can live to see 1000 years of age. The Blood Angels successor chapters have inherited that legion's longevity and thus live somewhat longer. The Eye of Terror distorts time's ability to cause aging and in there, creatures can live forever. Chaos Space Marines don't live any longer outside the Eye (which brings into question how the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords(?) replenish their ranks without access to new gene seed).

I thought Dreadnoughts were piloted by Marines that had actually been killed in battle but were then revived technologically in the Dreadnought sarcophaguses to keep serving. I believe they are as immortal as you can get without aid from the Warp.


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## lawrence96

BenedictWolfe said:


> Chaos Space Marines don't live any longer outside the Eye (which brings into question how the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords(?) replenish their ranks without access to new gene seed).
> 
> 
> 
> probably from the worlds they conquer, those who turn to chaos and meet the requirements for being a SM/CSM
Click to expand...


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## BenedictWolfe

> probably from the worlds they conquer, those who turn to chaos and meet the requirements for being a SM/CSM


Without gene seed, you can't create a Marine.


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## lawrence96

well SM have apothecaries, surely chaos does as well?


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## Amra_the_lion

dreads are just mortally wounded, not dead

According to 5th ed SM codex, lysander was missing for nearly one thousand years and when he returned no one in the chapter wasn't even born when he had disappeared. pg 91 

once again lending credibility to less than immortal and probably around 5-600 years


Probably not apothicaries, but twisted surgeons of chaos, such as fabius bile.

Also in the rulebook Huron Blackheart captures a majority of a chapters geneseed, presumably to create more red corsairs. So not all CSM are from the heresy, (subjection) mostly just the chosen/champions etc...


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## CommanderAnthor

In a part of the Space Marine codex before the new one there is a marine that takes a mortar and is destroyed and the Apocathary grabs his gene seed and he dies .. Thats what I think happens to basic troop if they die or are injured real bad.

As of life span I have no clue


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## Khorne's Fist

BenedictWolfe said:


> Without gene seed, you can't create a Marine.


No, but the traitor chapters would certainly do their best to reclaim the geneseed from their dead, so they would have some sort of stock to induct new marines. This stock would probably be dwindling away steadily though.


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## BenedictWolfe

Khorne's Fist said:


> No, but the traitor chapters would certainly do their best to reclaim the geneseed from their dead, so they would have some sort of stock to induct new marines. This stock would probably be dwindling away steadily though.


I went by that assumption too, but there is one problem: The black carapace. Once it has been implanted, it hardens and thrusts nerve bundles into the body of its host, meaning that it is completely integrated with that Marine. No other Marine will have any use of that carapace.

But like someone said earlier: They should be able to grow new gene-seed by using their progenoid glands. At least those chapters with the equipment and expertise to do so. If nothing else, maybe the Dark Mechanicus would have the resources to handle gene-seed? Assuming, that is, they have their own version of the Adeptus Biologis.


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## Khorne's Fist

BenedictWolfe said:


> I went by that assumption too, but there is one problem: The black carapace. Once it has been implanted, it hardens and thrusts nerve bundles into the body of its host, meaning that it is completely integrated with that Marine. No other Marine will have any use of that carapace.


They don't reclaim the carapace, it's only an implant, like the extra lung and secondary heart. The geneseeds are completely seperate. And I've heard it discussed elsewhere that when a marine reaches full maturity the Geneseed can be removed, it's work done. Not too sure about that myself, but it's worth thinking about.


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## BenedictWolfe

Khorne's Fist said:


> They don't reclaim the carapace, it's only an implant, like the extra lung and secondary heart. The geneseeds are completely seperate. And I've heard it discussed elsewhere that when a marine reaches full maturity the Geneseed can be removed, it's work done. Not too sure about that myself, but it's worth thinking about.


What you're talking about is the progenoid glands. Gene-seed is an umbrella term for all the organs that are implanted into a Marine, including these glands.

For the specifics of the creation of a Space Marine, sheck out the article of the same name on Lexicanum.


----------



## Lord Reevan

BenedictWolfe said:


> What you're talking about is the progenoid glands. Gene-seed is an umbrella term for all the organs that are implanted into a Marine, including these glands.
> 
> For the specifics of the creation of a Space Marine, sheck out the article of the same name on Lexicanum.


No it's the progenoid gland that is needed that is all. You're right that they were all called gene seed but when developed to be placed into a marine or while in them they're called Zygotes. Every other implant is refined and created from the geneitc memory in the progenoid and that memory and geneitc data of each other implant is called the geneseed.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/
Taken from the Games Workshop site. I think that's a bit more correct than lexicanum....


----------



## Inquisitor Aurelius

The progenoids are sacs containing the gene-seed (which is exactly what it sounds like - little fleshy seed-like precursors to all the other organs), removed upon the death of the Marine carrying them. There's some implication that they could be removed earlier, but they tend not to be. The gene-seeds are then implanted into the novitiate, where, aided by chemical stimulation and certain meditation processes, they grow into fully fledged organs. The Traitor Legions probably maintain some capacity to harvest the progenoids of fallen Battle-Brothers (with the obvious exception of the Thousand Sons), but either they've lost the knowledge of how to properly handle it, or implantation simply has a high failure rate due to mutation, hence the premise of Storm of Iron - capturing gene-seed.

As far as the lifespan issue goes, it's strongly implied that marines _could_ die of old age, though in practice, it tends to be a non-issue. But since ordinary humans can live past a thousand years given Juvenat treatments and heavy augmetic surgery, as demonstrated by some Inquisitors, it'd probably be fair to say that a Marine with access to the same level of care could at least double that mark. And as for the forces of Chaos, well... in the Dark Gods, all things are possible :grin:.

[EDIT: Damn. Beaten to the punch, at least in part.]


----------



## Kendares

so wouldnt the iron hands and their successor chapters would then live the longest? so much for the Blood Angels have been special.


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## Lord Reevan

The blood angel's curse allows them to live longer than any other marine due to their vampiric tendencies and fluff in their theme. Iron Hands I would say live less as the parts which keep their organs have been removed and changed with metal and might alter their assistance to the marine...


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## Kendares

but if it work for inquisitors why not not for iron hands? machine parts would last longer the organs. and replaceing them wouldbe alot eaiser.


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## Amra_the_lion

wow, If I read you right, i actually disagree with you Reevan. As a sci-fi setting, i imagine bionics allowing a longer life-span, albeit with alot of maintenance


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## Lord Reevan

they might live less than blood angels but are still probably the older chapters. I did seem kinda vague. Their bionics would keep them alive longer through lots of maintenance etc. but Blood angels's curse gives them very good and healthy organs and implnts that would make them live longer.... just Opinion really....


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## Amra_the_lion

gotcha. I agree Blood angels live long(est?)er without replacement parts needed


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## Lord Reevan

And then probably followed by either iron hands or space wolves, not counting inquisitors and the like....


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## Kendares

i say we make The Hilander a Space Marine :biggrin: he be the best space marine ever. and what mutation make the BE live longer. is it like the organs are better accepted by their hosts?


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## Lord Reevan

they're basically loyalist vampires and vampires are immortal or really long lifed ( depends on what you see or read them in) so they said that for BA too. They only gave the reason that " the curse did it". how I don't really know. After "the curse did it" it's all speculation


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## Duci

marines can live for ages in dreadnoughts as bjorn the fell-handed knew leman russ and saw the Emperor before he was in the golden throne and this dread is still around that must make him very old


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## Baron Spikey

The Black Templar Ludolous (spelling?) is presented as either being thousands of years old or it being 2 different people with the same name....I know which one sounds more plausible to me.

According to the 5th Edition SM Codex the Progenoids- The Gene-seeds (how it's written in the Codex), _*respond to the presence of other implants, creating germ cels corresponding to those implants.These germ cells grow and are stored in the progenoid organs.
Mature progenoid organs can be removed and new implants artificially cultured from them.*_


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## geza55

Space marines are genetically alltered superhumans, they can't die of old age. Power armour lets them fight at best till they're about 400 or so. Terminator armour can keep you in fighting shape till your nearly 800, and artificer (they best) can keep you in tip top shap (LOL) till your well over 1000. That's not counting dreadnoughts, beacause as i'm sure some one said they have been around since the crusades and HH. That's over 10,000 years.
:victory:
Sorry but i'm a bit of a boff about space marines.


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## Lord Reevan

where does it say they can't die of old age? and where does it say armour has anything to with age bar they live longer in better armour due to not dieing on the battlefield.

In the BA and SW codex it says they live *longer* than normal marines. I've said this several times and I'll say it again how can you live longer than forever?


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## Amra_the_lion

this thread is getting foolish to the point of zealotry, Where does this idea of living forever come from?

If you have wild ideas about space marine longevity cite some sources!


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## Lord Reevan

Amra_the_lion said:


> this thread is getting foolish to the point of zealotry, Where does this idea of living forever come from?
> 
> If you have wild ideas about space marine longevity cite some sources!


Exactly. Well said amra:good:
From what I have read on space marines ( a LOT) There are several things pointing to them having finite lives, The reference to longer lives in BA and SW coices, Plus the reference to the librarian in Ascension Getting too old for all this. 

Nowhere have I seen a reference to them being immortal...


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## whatwhat

Horus Rising definitely states that marines are immortal, destined to die on the battlefield. It's whether you take Dan Abnett as official fluff or not tho, cos ive seen that cherubael dude do shit in the eisenhorn trillogy the chaos gods would dream of.


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## Lord Reevan

page reference please... There are sayings like die n battle to become immortal blah blah Might be one of them..... Still you're the first person I've seen here that's put up a reference so good on you:victory:


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## whatwhat

i shall retrieve the book, b4 i edit this post. watch this space...literally.

*Edit:* _"the astartes, like the primarchs, were immortals. Age would not wither them, nor bring them down. Thy would live forever...five thousand, ten thousand, beyond even that into some unimaginable millennium. Except for the scythe of war."_ (Abnet, Horus Rising 81-82)

Theres sme nice harvard referencing fo yo ass. 

Honestly tho, there is a debate about how seriously you can take black library fiction, but it is a fairly notable series the heresy novels so ud have thought GW would have kept it in check.


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## Lord Reevan

Good reference but thing with the heresy novels is that they're set far into the past and things could change by then, especially with out the primarch's power and lesser technology nowadays( or 41st millenium days) but still god job.


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## whatwhat

It is kind of odd how the BA codex directly contradicts it.

Another thing i'm sure I heard somewhere marine armour was bonded to them yet in horus rising Loken seems to have a walk in closet full of stuff he wears without it.

Thing is which outdates the other because GW do change there mind a lot. Squats being a major example.


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## KellysGrenadier

I think Marines can be disconnected from their armour.


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## Amra_the_lion

oh yeah marines are not connected to their armor permanently. They wear monastic robes out of their armor (for the most part)


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## Khorne's Fist

The thing about the HH novels is that they are set in a time when they weren't really sure how long a marine could live because they weren't around that long. Most had died in battle so it was never an issue. 

Iacton Qruze, though, did seem to be physically ageing. He was one of the first marines created, a veteran of the war of unification, and though I don't recall them giving his age, it would be safe to assume he was several hundred years old. So, IMO, a marine may be immortal (which I doubt), but there will come a time when he can't physically do the job any more.


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## Lord Reevan

I agree with khorne's fist. Back before the heresy marines were still new and There wasn't much known about them but Cruze was around since the start, So was Garro I think, And they both showed signs of aging...


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## BenedictWolfe

Khorne's Fist said:


> So, IMO, a marine may be immortal (which I doubt), but there will come a time when he can't physically do the job any more.


The Blood Angels codex (which is available on the GW website as a .pdf) states very clearly that Blood Angels are capable of living much longer than other Space Marines. Therefor, Space Marines are not immortal.


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## whatwhat

Khorne's Fist said:


> The thing about the HH novels is that they are set in a time when they weren't really sure how long a marine could live because they weren't around that long. Most had died in battle so it was never an issue.
> 
> Iacton Qruze, though, did seem to be physically ageing. He was one of the first marines created, a veteran of the war of unification, and though I don't recall them giving his age, it would be safe to assume he was several hundred years old. So, IMO, a marine may be immortal (which I doubt), but there will come a time when he can't physically do the job any more.





Lord Reevan said:


> I agree with khorne's fist. Back before the heresy marines were still new and There wasn't much known about them but Cruze was around since the start, So was Garro I think, And they both showed signs of aging...


It talks about Qruze aging in the same book as it states marines are immortal. So they depreciate but they are still immortal. Also Qruze is a lot older than 400 by what the book says.

I don't buy this, they didnt know much back then rubbish. Thats a ridiculous argument. The horus rising quote i posted before is the most solid bit of argument for either side that GW seem to have published. The blood angels thing does not directly say they are not immortal whereas horus rising explicitly does state that they are.

If your going to continue that argument now your only hope is to doubt abnett's credibility. As the "it was a long time ago, they didnt know" and "times have changed, maybe they caught anti immortality flu" is theory and bullshit theory at that.

I know you probably feel really annoyed at how you've managed to make a six page argument out of this based on the BA codex quote only for it to be smashed down by the horus rising one. But until you can come out with a better one you're quite simply clutching at straws.

Or maybe we'll just wait out for a bit and see if Dante dies of alzheimers


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## BenedictWolfe

Please.... Who cares what the novels say? The authors make up contradictory fluff as they go and ignore important bits that prevent them from implementing their plot devices. Abnett's credibility? I didn't know he had any.

Anyways: GW's own codexes go before the authors' stories. Pretty simple.


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## whatwhat

That's just about the most ridiculous argument that's been posted, and is exactly as ive said b4, just clutching at straws. "the black library books don't matter"

we had a conversation on a similar subject the-conclave, black library authors work is looked over by gw to make sure whats in it is true to the 40k universe.

its a big section in horus rising you know. its more than the quote i posted, it actually goes on for about three pages talking about marines and their immortality. I don't think it would have got past gw.

i know bl isn't always right and you could put AN argument against it, but not..."GW's own codexes go before the authors' stories. Pretty simple."...that one. That sounds fairly school playground argument like to me.


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## BenedictWolfe

You _need_ to clean up your act. Your infantile attacks at people are unnecessary and unwelcome. Behave.

And I am well aware of what GW is interested in. It's green, rectangular and makes a pleasant noise when you handle it in quantity. The authors of the black Library have little to interest in following canon, and what we get are immortal Marines and Guardswomen who turn into the Avatar of Khorne. My statement is perfectly sound.


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## whatwhat

BenedictWolfe said:


> You _need_ to clean up your act. Your infantile attacks at people are unnecessary and unwelcome. Behave.


your unbelievable. You seem to have some problem with me by your comments on here and the other thread. I have not "attacked" anyone. Maybe your taking me too seriously I don't know but I'm not going to continue to explain myself around your unnecessary comments about me. Grow up.


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## Khorne's Fist

whatwhat said:


> your unbelievable. You seem to have some problem with me by your comments on here and the other thread. I have not "attacked" anyone. Maybe your taking me too seriously I don't know but I'm not going to continue to explain myself around your unnecessary comments about me. Grow up.


I got to say, I agree with Benedict. These are "discussion" boards, not the "I'm right, your theory is bullshit" boards that you seem to think it is. You've called other peoples opinions "rubbish", "ridiculous", "clutching at straws" and "bullshit". Heresy is one of the best 40k forums because people can share an opinion without the likes of you shooting them down for it. Get with the programme or just find another site.


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## whatwhat

"Anyways: GW's own codexes go before the authors' stories. Pretty simple. "

and that doesn't echo any of what you just said?

I'm not shooting anyone down. If i believe something is ridiculous i'm going to be honest about it, I don't deny anyone the right to disagree though. If i'm just going to get called a child and all this other stuff just because you disagree with me a may as well leave.

As far as I can see a ridiculous argument (in my opinion) was brought up that the BL was basicly useless and didnt mean anything. I disagreed and now im being called a child blablabla.

To be honest I think I will leave anyway.


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## whatwhat

Khorne's Fist said:


> These are "discussion" boards, not the "I'm right, your theory is bullshit" boards


And your on this guys side?...



BenedictWolfe said:


> Please.... Who cares what the novels say?


Get real. I did nothing wrong and you know it.


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## BenedictWolfe

You're flippant, rude, childish and disrespectful of those who disagree with you. That was why I told you to chill (and in a pretty humorous way, I'd like to think). And I stand by that statement. Hiding behind the "tell it like it is" excuse isn't going to prevent you from painting yourself into a corner. If you don't like my calling you a kid, I suggest you act like an adult and then I might just treat you like one.


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## revenant13

BenedictWolfe said:


> Please.... Who cares what the novels say? The authors make up contradictory fluff as they go and ignore important bits that prevent them from implementing their plot devices. Abnett's credibility? I didn't know he had any.
> 
> Anyways: GW's own codexes go before the authors' stories. Pretty simple.


id have to say that is possibly the silliest thing ive ever read in this forum. id have to agree with *whatwhat*. i hope you do realize benedictwolfe that GW _does_ overlook each and every book to make sure it is at least _decently_ credible. and if anything the BL novels would be much more credible than the codicies because they are much more detailed and in depth about what is _in_ the codicies.

and about the blood angels quote, could it not be talking about physical appearance? Dante is at minimum 1200 yrs old (assuming he becamse master at 100 yrs old...) and in the BA novels it doesnt sound like he even looks a third his age. Reading some things on Cassius hes only 400 yrs old and yet he "looks" old. i find it hard to believe he will die earlier than a BA simply because of geneseed and age. As for the SW comment, Logan is a whole 500 yrs younger, at least, than Dante and yet he looks as old as dirt. if they do live longer than other marines, must not be _that_ much longer seeing as to how they age much faster physically than practically all other marines. if they can die from age, SW would have one of the shortest not longest life spans because of the aging people are arguing about.

im sure that _eventually_ an SM cant go into battle constantly because of age, but im aslo sure they can still fight just not as well. its incredibly unlikely they live long enough to find out though. if marines do have an average lifespan of 400 yrs or so, then it pays to be a blood angel only as your lifespan is guaranteed to be 3 times longer at least.

and seeing as to how you can quote what you view as SM having a finite lifespan, perhaps you can also quote an example of a marine dying from age.


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## revenant13

BenedictWolfe said:


> You're flippant, rude, childish and disrespectful of those who disagree with you. That was why I told you to chill (and in a pretty humorous way, I'd like to think). And I stand by that statement. Hiding behind the "tell it like it is" excuse isn't going to prevent you from painting yourself into a corner. If you don't like my calling you a kid, I suggest you act like an adult and then I might just treat you like one.


and saying things like that doesnt make you much of an adult either, lol.


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## Lord Reevan

revenant13 said:


> and seeing as to how you can quote what you view as SM having a finite lifespan, perhaps you can also quote an example of a marine dying from age.


Can you give an example of one staying alive for ever? bar warp infected chaos. Thing is they all die through battle or are interred in a dreadnought. even if they have long lives they're goona die anyway.


Space wolves are noted to visually age more, not totally age more.


----------



## Inquisitor Aurelius

*Ahem*. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

Abnett's fluff-fu is weak. He routinely contradicts canon, either deliberately or ignorantly. And this is coming from a guy who _likes_ his work. I've spent a great deal of time and effort twisting and reinterpreting assertions made in the Eisenhorn trilogy in an attempt to make them gel with the rest of the 40k universe. What he writes is generally very good, and often very wrong. I'm sure the Fluff-Lords of the Conclave could argue this much better than I could (hell, they've practically written theses on it), but the point is that if you cite Dan Abnett as a canonical source, you'll tend to be laughed out of court by those who know better. Nowhere is this more aptly demonstrated than the Black Library forums - go there if you don't believe me. Those guys know their stuff.

[DISCLAIMER: The preceding statements were not intended to be, and should not be interpreted as, personal attacks on anyone, Dan Abnett included. Just thought it worth pointing out - people in this thread seem a bit prickly at the moment.]


----------



## whatwhat

Granted, however ive had a look through the other heresy books today aswell and low and behold mcneil is on about immortal astartes too. So its obviously been agreed on this when the authors made the series and is not down to abnett himself. i.e. in an effort of continuity the would have made some things straight, and who'd be at the head of that convo. the same guys who have say over these precious codexes.

I thought u might be able to bring that argument up myself but on review of the other stuff by different authors it seems like Abnett is alright on this one. It is true though Malleus had some odd stuff I have to say.

Also I am bewildered why anyone would want this finite stuff to be true. Five hundred years of heroic, brilliant, honorable service to the emperor only to have a stroke when they catch sight of a gretchin at five hundred and one, well how prestigious. Whereas the imperiums immortal warriors destined to die on the battlefield? Now thats more like it.


----------



## BenedictWolfe

revenant13 said:


> id have to say that is possibly the silliest thing ive ever read in this forum. id have to agree with *whatwhat*. i hope you do realize benedictwolfe that GW _does_ overlook each and every book to make sure it is at least _decently_ credible. and if anything the BL novels would be much more credible than the codicies because they are much more detailed and in depth about what is _in_ the codicies.


I can imagine that they get the final read through. I honestly doubt they care enough to make the author rewrite important plot points because they don't adhere to canon. That sounds like a petty thing to demand out of someone who has spent months writing a story in your setting. In the end, profit is the central component of BL's distribution, not slaving to the canon.




revenant13 said:


> and about the blood angels quote, could it not be talking about physical appearance?


"Physically, the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all Space Marines. One of the peculiarities of the Flaw is that it vastly increases the lifespan of those who survive. Thus, it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years. Indeed, the current Commander of the Chapter, Dante, was born nearly 1,100 years ago. These vastly extended lifespans allow the Blood Angels to perfect their techniques in art as well as in war. They have centuries in which to perfect the disciplines to which they turn their minds, accounting for the fact that the Blood Angels’ armor and banners are among the most ornate ever produced by Space Marine artificers"
-*Codex: Blood Angels* (free, online pdf)

The answer is: No. The codex says it like it is. And GW's canon supercedes the imagination of the many authors who write for BL.




revenant13 said:


> im sure that _eventually_ an SM cant go into battle constantly because of age,...


Yeah.... That's what age means. The wear and tear on the body through natural processes that weaken it till the day it can take no more.




revenant13 said:


> and seeing as to how you can quote what you view as SM having a finite lifespan, perhaps you can also quote an example of a marine dying from age.


No I can't. Does this prove some point? *Lord Reevan* answered that.




revenant13 said:


> and saying things like that doesnt make you much of an adult either, lol.


The "lol" at the end is what really cements the maturity of that statement.


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## Amra_the_lion

Can I beg you all to stay on topic? Comments on the maturity of posts is unnecessary from anyone, and I'd not like to see this thread locked for it. This issue has become unresolvable, as both sides have evidence that they are correct. An official statement is now required to solve this. My suggestion would be to start a poll to see what everyone _thinks_ as to the Immortal/Mortal/Had to make room for the Tuna and dont care, question.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Now I'm sure that in one of the HH novels it states that the Great Crusade had been in progress for 200 years or so (this is just my memory and as I don't have all the novels with me nor the willingness to trawl through them all looking for that section you'll have to take it as a currently unfounded statement). 
Well the Unification of Earth didn't take more than a century (probably less) I'm fairly sure so the oldest Marines would only be between 300-400 yrs old, now with that current knowledge at their fingertips what is to say that the statement concerning immortality wasn't merely propaganda or wishful thinking?

I know it's an opinion not based on quantifiable fact, but it's only explanation I can think of that brings both statements for infinite and finite Astartes lives into harmony.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I think everyone should calm down a lot.... There is a lot of bitching going on, not just on this thread. If I sounded like I was personally attacking or insulting anyone then I apologise, I do not mean offense. I just start to get to the point straight with certain things....


----------



## Inquisitor Aurelius

Baron Spikey said:


> Now I'm sure that in one of the HH novels it states that the Great Crusade had been in progress for 200 years or so (this is just my memory and as I don't have all the novels with me nor the willingness to trawl through them all looking for that section you'll have to take it as a currently unfounded statement).
> Well the Unification of Earth didn't take more than a century (probably less) I'm fairly sure so the oldest Marines would only be between 300-400 yrs old, now with that current knowledge at their fingertips what is to say that the statement concerning immortality wasn't merely propaganda or wishful thinking?
> 
> I know it's an opinion not based on quantifiable fact, but it's only explanation I can think of that brings both statements for infinite and finite Astartes lives into harmony.


Ditto. The HH novels are presented in many ways as myths, and lest we forget, the Imperium of Man has a propaganda machine almost to rival that of George Orwell's Oceania. Alternatively, we could go with the suggestion of someone a few pages back who pointed out that perhaps the original Marines really were immortals, but that the generations of Astartes since the loss of the Primarchs have suffered from a degradation of Gene-seed that has resulted in the loss of this near-miraculous ability. We haven't really resolved the issue, nor can we, but can we at least try to reconcile the two opposing viewpoints before people start killing each other?


----------



## shadowscout13

you fight as the luna wolves? is there special rules you have to follow or do you just use them like a regular chapter?


----------



## Lord Reevan

shadowscout13 said:


> you fight as the luna wolves? is there special rules you have to follow or do you just use them like a regular chapter?


who is this aimed to? it's also off topic. better to pm someone about it.....


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok i dont know exactly what HH novel this is but im sure its one of the first two, Horus Rising or False Gods, where it alludes to how old Iacton Qruze is. It doesnt say outright how old he is but it says that he was there during the unification wars on terra and the like and that he was very very old and should have been retired long before. so in the beginning you see him as an old fart but later in flight of the eisenstein it talks about him killing a marine with his bare hands, although he also got a beating, and how in Horus Rising he led a counterattack against the mega arachnid and broke their attack's back. and this dude was supposedly damn old. 

now i have never read of a marine living forever but then again i have never read of one dying of old age. the oldest i know of is Bjorn the Fellhanded and he's in a dreadnought and then next comes Dante who's still kickin. ive read in numerous books about how space marines were IMMORTAL and this was some sort of side affect from their geneseed or some shit but im taking that with a grain of salt. 

although this is a good question i am afraid there is no complete answer because even if space marines were immortal they would all die in battle, and if they werent immortal they would still die in battle, so either way they all will die its just a matter of what planet what weapon and whom kills them.


----------



## vorbis

my own personal view was one split down the middle, everything degenerates as it ages no mater what it is, whether organic or mechanic it slows down, errors creep in, so yes to all intents and purposes they are immortal but due to the fact as they get older they get slower and more likely to die noone will ever find out, and i fit the longer living chapters into my hypothosis as that the quote means they age slower, im guessing noone has sat a marine down in a cell out of harms way just to see how long he would live for so the only other way would be to guess, to prehaps plot a graph saying hmm this is how old they are now they have degenerated X amount if this is steady i predict they will die when they are Y years old differing graphs differant chapters.

any of that make sense to anyone because it did in my head but then i started typing 

love to ya mothers


----------



## Amra_the_lion

let this poor old thread rest in peace! She's old and tired!


----------



## itie101

Earlier on: Logan Grimnar is 700 years old says in SW codex

BA are the longest living chapter due to their flawed geneseed, "Physically the BA are among the longest lived SM" stuff about heir geneseed "thus, itis not uncommon for BA to live for 1000 years"

Some marines, like Grey Knights only live to about 200...

Traitor marines are kept alive by the chaos gods and the warp


----------



## MajorChaos

Hmm i think there was one chaos space marine in a stasis chamber in a ship that crash on a planet... i forget the books name but it said he was like over 10k years old and he got out and ripped up some people who stold sumthing from him... (he was like a assualt chaos marine or sumthing)


----------



## Khorne's Fist

itie101 said:


> Some marines, like Grey Knights only live to about 200...


Where did you hear that?


----------



## Vaz

I remember it vaguely, something in one of the Grey Knight Novels.

Still,it's unlikely that they livemuch longer, given their dedicated enemy.


----------



## titan11

Space marines NEVER age they are just eventually killed in combat except a few who become so shot up that they get placed inside a dreadnaught. this may have already been said but I did not have time to read this for very long.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

titan11 said:


> Space marines NEVER age they are just eventually killed in combat except a few who become so shot up that they get placed inside a dreadnaught. this may have already been said but I did not have time to read this for very long.


If you're going to ressurect a thread that's 9 months old please have the courtesy to it read it all before you decide to add something that was discussed at length in the 11 pages of posts previous to yours.


----------



## dark angel

Space Marines DO age think of Dante and Logan Grimnar i would say though that the average lifespan is between 300 and 800 years old.


----------



## Chocobuncle

Dude *Space Marines* *do age*. But do they age like how regular humans age? As it says Dante is the oldest living space marine (excluding dreadnoughts) which hes over 1100 years old because it says the Blood Angel live longer than regular space marines. Does that mean they remain in peak physical condition longer than normal space marines since Dante is still able to fight? Maybe

To just get it out there from Lexicanum "In no small part, this is due to the longevity of the Blood Angels, which he has ruled for 1,100 years. Dante is the oldest living Space Marine in the Imperium"


Logan is over 700 years old and it says in Lexicanum and I quote "Logan Grimnar...is one of the oldest Chapter Master for any Space Marine chapter".

In Lexicanum it also says about Chapter Masters "Chapter Master possesses centuries of battle experience" meaning on average they are generally 200-300 years old. And are usually the best Space Marine in their entire chapter. Generally speaking.

Since Logan is one of the oldest Chapter Masters, being over 700 years old, and Dante is over 1,100 years old. You can say the average general "life spam" I am gonna guess they live to their oldest, without dying in combat or being put inside a dreadnoughts, as we can assume, it does not say Space Wolves live any longer than normal space marines, is over 800 years old.

Since space marines are always fighting constantly and because they do age and as normal humans get weaker the older you age, after your prime years 20-50, we could hypothetically say generally they do get weaker. Now because they get weaker but are still able to beat the living shit out of everything just not as well they are more susceptible to not healing as fast or well, weaker muscles, slower movement as regular humans are. This could mean that during a battle older marines are more likely to be put inside a dreadnought than younger because of healing abilities or anything else that could be contributed to old age for normal humans.

But now we know being in great physical condition slows down aging and you are able to say in better shape longer than someone whose never worked out. Since Space Wolves are known for their ferocity on battle that could contribute to Logan being one of the oldest Chapter Masters saying if the other older ones didn't die of battling. 


*Chaos Space Marines* *CAN* live longer than "normal space marines" because the Eye of Terror and just the Warp in general twists space and time. Now outside the Warp while thousands of years may past, inside the warp it could have been a few seconds. Or the opposite could be true. While a few seconds outside the warp could be thousands of years inside the warp. Now be meaning age in this thread we mean the body's age from being born until X amount of years inside or outside the warp.

You can think of it like a time traveler concept. If Person A and Person B are both 10 years old in the year 2000 and Person A travels through time 20 years within a few seconds to the year 2020. Person A is still 10 years old but Person B is 30 years old now. To Person A they are still the same age because they have not aged but from the DATE they were born they are "considered" to be 30. So when you talk about aging from the warp it depends on whose perspective. Physically and mentally being inside the effects may have not changed to the people but to people outside the effects will have changed.The opposite, remember, could be true if Person A travels 20 years from the year 2000 and Person B is outside the effects of the time travel. While traveling only 20 years from the year 2000 they could have been traveling 80 years. While coming back in the year 2020 and Person B being age 30 from when they were born, Person A is now 90 years old. Again from the date they were born is only 30 years from the year 2020 but from the aging effects by space and time they are 90 years old. So while dealing with how old are Chaos Space Marines are it is tricky business.


By the way if some of you didn't know Chaos Space Marines do recuit new members the same way Space Marines do except on Daemon Worlds of while traveling through the Imperium or any other method. They still harvest the organ to make new marines etc etc. So Chaos Space Marines are not always ancient foes from ghosts past being 10,000 years old. Some are but again some are not.


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## Amra_the_lion

oh Emperor no! not this again. I though someone had the sense to lock this mess....


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## Chocobuncle

titan11 revived the ghost of Christmas past

HERETIC!


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## ServentsOfSanguinius

*oldest*

I heard than dante was the oldest space marine, but their are other characters such as abbadon and lucius which would make them older than most sm characters


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## robot-waffle

life span of marines? simple, because chaos owns them, its like 20 so they grow up to be a soldier, 21 the first year of war they get owned... hows that?


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## Coder59

Ok Ladies I can give you an answer to this. Barring major injury space marines can live pretty much FOREVER! No not through the influence of chaos just forever!

As evidence I present the novel Salamander. In that we find a space marine who was at Isstvaan V as part of Vulkan's forces never fell to chaos and is STILL alive. Granted he's almost fossilised due to the massive amount of time he's spent under hus Sus-Ans membrane and he can't move due to his armour locking up and his muscles wasting away. But he's still alive.

Thus endeth the lesson.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Every complex organism ages (bar 2). Spess mehrens are no exception.

Lets bury this thread.


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## robot-waffle

maybe space marines use steroids_?


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## Barnster

According to all the fluff Space Marines are immortal, other than dying in battle. When has it ever been recorded that a marines dies of old age?

Loken has a conversation to this effect with one of the remembarancers in Horus rising


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## Khorne's Fist

God, not again! I think this thread will live as long as Dante, the way people keep resurrecting it.

Mind you, the Salamander novel does lend some credence to the immortal marine theory.


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## Coder59

Khorne's Fist said:


> God, not again! I think this thread will live as long as Dante, the way people keep resurrecting it.
> 
> Mind you, the Salamander novel does lend some credence to the immortal marine theory.


Lend some? It basically proves it man.


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## Baron Spikey

Completely ignoring the immortal/mortal angle, it's possible that the 'life span' is in regards to the age at which most marines can no longer take to the battlefield as a combat effective brother- that Salamander was ancient but he wasn't going to be swinging into action any time soon.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

The fact that his muscles were wasting away would lend evidence to the theory that they are not immortal. Maybe they just live so long that none has ever survived long enough to die of senescence. Again, nothing that complex could live forever under our universe's laws. I'd assume it would be the same in the 40kverse.


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## Amra_the_lion

Oh. My. God. Not again. Someone should run this train off its topic track so someone will lock the bitch.


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## darkreever

Perhaps you should be the one to do it, or anyone else who feels like getting in trouble for spamming and/or intentionally de-railing a thread for the sole purpose of getting it locked.

As for the topic itself, if your looking to Black Library books then look into Angels of Darkness. The apothecary in the story is getting up their in the years (I believe late 500's or early 600's) and it is explicitly in the novel that when a marine reaches around the age of five hundred or so, the apothecaries have to keep an eye on him because his body will begin to degenerate and fail him.

From that you have a space marine's body breaking down, which means he will not be able to last forever, not without augmentation of some kind. Can't live forever if your body will eventually break down and stop working.

Also, as has been said what is likely many times throughout this thread, the Blood Angels are noted for having lifespans naturally greater than other space marine chapters. This isn't from not fighting or taking the easy way out of things; if space marines were immortal why would it be said that Blood Angels and all those who share their geneseed have longer lifespans? You can't live longer than forever, its forever for a reason.


In regards to chaos marines and loyalist marines, the two do not compare for several very large reasons. Two of them are the warp, which does not follow logic and physical laws as the material realm does, including the way time works; chaos marines, specifically of the original traitor legions, are different from other loyalist marines. The methods used to produce them is different, some things have been lossed while geneseed for some chapters has degenerated or mutated.


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