# When was Khorne...Born?



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I have been a big fan of the Blood god for a while now and I know alot about that scary-looking bloke on the brass throne, but there is one thing that has been troubling me. When was Khorne "born"? (what year, E.g. MXX)

As we all know Slaanesh was born at the fall of the Eldar, around M18 so the other gods must have been born sometime before that. If you know (even very roughly) give me a heads up.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

he came into being in the middle ages


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Did they not mention something about it in... The Liber Chaotica? Or where was it?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> he came into being in the middle ages


Yeah, when people didn't have fancy guns and had to beat each others' faces in with hammers and gut them with swords. Extract from the _Liber Chaotica_:

"From the boiling blood sea rose eight mighty creatures, each with the heads of dogs and bodies of lions, and each one yoked with great chains of brass. They climbed forth each mountain and behind them dragged upwards a new mountain from the sea, a mountain of bone and skulls that reached fully ten times the height of the eight peaks around it. Upon its sight, the soldiers of the battle took new heart and rose again from the gore-drenched earth to praise their true lord while the kings and princes threw themselves down in fear as they recognised the true Skull Throne, of which their own had been the palest imitation. And atop the very summit, the embryonic-god screamed his name in a birth cry that echoed and crashed from peak to peak and drove the cowardly mad even as it strengthened the worthy beyond mortal effort.

And the name was Kharneth, our Blood God Khorne."

Yes, the _Liber Chaotica_ deals with Warhammer and not 40k, but I doubt it was much different.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

It's hard to say, given both the nature of the Warp and the Chaos Gods. Technically, they have always existed in the Warp, even when it was calm and still. Even Slaanesh was said to exist long before he was 'born'. It's more when they fully came into being. I heard that Khorne was the first of the four to cross that threshold during Earth's Middle Ages. But that could be out of date fluff, or I could be mistaken.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

My views on the subject:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> According to the first edition background yes. Much more recent background however (_Codex: Chaos Space Marines_ 4th ed. Page 8) states that the chaos gods took billions of years to manifest properly. I can't see humanity making even a minor contribution to the coalescing of Khorne for example, we were fighting petty inter-regional wars on a single planet with crude weaponary whilst across the galaxy much larger and fiercer inter-planetary and even inter-sector wars were being fought with an amount of bloodshed that made humanity's wars look pathetic in comparison.
> 
> If Khorne did manifest during Terra's 'dark ages' then it is pure coincidence by our current understanding of the lore.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I was aware of that passage under _Doombreed_, however it seems contradictory to other parts in the codex and even other modern lore. I'd also just like to throw in the timeless issue that the warp is timeless, therefore applying the word _"young"_ to Khorne is a paradox.
> 
> There is also other pieces of lore which implies the chaos gods are much older, _Codex: Necrons_ for example which states 60,000,000 years ago the warp was thrown into disarray as a result of the War in Heaven, implying in it's wording that this is when chaos began to rise.
> 
> ...


How old is Khorne? Well assigning a date or age to a Chaos God results in a paradox. Khorne is eternal. But for simplicity's sake, Khorne is noted as being _"young"_ (which causes problems in itself) when Doombreed ascended into the ranks of daemonhood. And going off the first edition background, Khorne's birth plausably occured at some point during the Age of Terra or before - give or take (potentially millennia if not more). But I strictly hold to the view that this is a mere coincidence and his (or any other Chaos Gods) birth is not a result of the rise of humanity.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.


Given the eternal nature of chaos, it's unclear if the gods could interact with the material realm prior to their _"birth"_.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.


That was what I was going to say. Very well put Karak The Unfaithful. I guess by young they mean when talking about his age when he fully manifested himself. All the gods have always existed. So in that sense I now I understand that thats the reason none of them have the upper hand.

In our view and the broadest view of things as a mortal. One can understand why people would think Khorne is the "mightiest." Because for one, he was the first one fully born at the time. But we forget, that the other gods still did exist. And they have always had the same amount of power thus the reason for the Great Game.

I use to believe Khorne was born before the others because he was able to absorb more energy/souls and emotion and thus had an edge. But I don't believe that is so anymore. I believe that it was sort of (and forgive my french) a sort of orgasm into existance. The energy was so much that it finally created the god. Not that the moment in which they were born was the greatest moment the god had. But it was the biggest jump of excitement if you will before they existed.

It would explain why Khorne was the first and Slaanesh was the last. Khorne being very ill tempered of the gods was probably the most sensitive. Slaanesh being the more perverse and pleasure seeking, took so much more for it to finally give her that "orgasm" into existance. 

Thats why Slaanesh was so strong and was able to defeat Khain and also compete with the three other Chaos Gods that were born much before it.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, time is immaterial in the Immaterium so birth in a traditional sense is not possible, but I think the "birth" of a Chaos god refers to a cataclysmic outpouring or prolonged increase of emotion(s) that causes said emotion(s) to coalesce into a sentient being. Violently, of course.

In other words: Anger, bloodlust, honor, a sense of glory; these things were always present in the Warp, but before whatever caused Khorne to be "born", they were nothing more than raw feelings and desires spinning in that pea soup of madness. Something had to "spark" Khorne's existence (a mind-bendingly gigantic battle or perhaps a long, drawn-out war that slaughtered trillions; the emotions that created Slaanesh took centuries to grow in power enough to give birth to that particular god, so it doesn't have to be an "orgasm" as ck suggested). It's entirely possible that Khorne came first (in a mortal's sense of time) because, if you think about it, rage and hatred are very primal emotions and often come before pleasure, cunning (manipulation), or... eh... the love of boils and pus.

Damn, that's a good question. Not to de-rail the thread, but what emotions gave birth to Nurgle? He seems like more of a spawn of nature (decay and stagnation are natural processes) than the feelings of mortal beings.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I always went with the idea that all chaos gods have been around they were not really "born" but gained access to the materium.


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## warman45 (Feb 27, 2011)

nurgle's emotion might have been hopelessness though it is also said that his greater daemon values his nurglings like children, also masochism could be thrown in there.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I would imagine the War in the Heavens and the C'tan devouring entire races and life would be a significant boost to Khorne's "birth"...


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Silly question but if the chaos gods have always existed, why don't the eldar gods still exist since technically they too were chaos gods. Since as it's stated all the gods have always existed, doesn't this mean that the eldar gods still exist too?


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

The essence of Nurgle is hopelessness, the fear of death, the depths of despair and to wallow in one's own misery. There could be (and probably is) a whole other thread on what makes up Nurgle and why he's so happy when he only inflicts and feeds from misery.

The idea that one emotion 'came first' or supercedes another is one I can't agree with. In terms of humanity, the gods represent the whole range of emotion, so that Khorne came before Slaanesh was because people were angry before they were horny doesn't sit well with me. Obviously humans are only the smallest fraction of the contributing 'essence' that make up the gods, so you could argue that possibly some other races that felt nothing but rage and the need to kill fed into what would be Khorne quite heavily before humans were beyond the single cell stage. 

Ultimately though, it's pointless to try and apply mortal notions to something so vast and incomprehensible as the chaos gods, but we will continue to try nonetheless.


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## mpomnibus (Oct 31, 2010)

When the necrons and the old ones were fighting there was no chao gods, so we know they were made or born after that war. It is nice knowing that the chao gods were not always around so there is a chance of peace in this crazy galaxy :shok:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Silly question but if the chaos gods have always existed, why don't the eldar gods still exist since technically they too were chaos gods. Since as it's stated all the gods have always existed, doesn't this mean that the eldar gods still exist too?


The problem is that we have little idea on just what kind of being the Eldar Gods were. Some say that they were the first Eldar created by the Old One, and they in turn created the Eldar race as their children, or some other Old One-created-entity. Others say the Eldar Gods were the last of the Old Ones. GW has never really elaborated on just what they are. But I would say that they are different entities from the Chaos Gods. They could be some form of god-like Warp Entity but they could just as easily be god-like beings of the material universe. Of the Eldar Gods, most are dead, consumed by Slaanesh along with millions of Eldar. The Laughing God is alive in the Black Library, hidden in the Webway. Khaine's body has been ripped apart but his soul lives on, channeled into the body's of the Eldar that sacrifice themselves to become the Avatars of Khaine. Isha is _supposedly_ alive and trapped in Nurgle's Garden and whom the Chaos God loves like no other, an interesting fate considering that she's a goddess of healing. Ynnead is a God-to-be, not unlike the Chaos Gods before they were 'born', it exists but has yet to fully manifest and won't until all of the Craftworld Eldar have died and had their soulstones placed into the Infinity Circuits of their Craftworlds.


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

When awesomeness came about... that is when Khorne was born.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Silly question but if the chaos gods have always existed, why don't the eldar gods still exist since technically they too were chaos gods. Since as it's stated all the gods have always existed, doesn't this mean that the eldar gods still exist too?


What makes you refer to them as _"chaos"_ gods? It's not entirely clear exactly what the Eldar gods were/are. Educated guesses can be made, but there really isn't a lot of lore regarding them beyond vague myths.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Sir Whittaker said:


> The essence of Nurgle is hopelessness, the fear of death, the depths of despair and to wallow in one's own misery. There could be (and probably is) a whole other thread on what makes up Nurgle and why he's so happy when he only inflicts and feeds from misery.
> 
> The idea that one emotion 'came first' or supercedes another is one I can't agree with. In terms of humanity, the gods represent the whole range of emotion, so that Khorne came before Slaanesh was because people were angry before they were horny doesn't sit well with me. Obviously humans are only the smallest fraction of the contributing 'essence' that make up the gods, so you could argue that possibly some other races that felt nothing but rage and the need to kill fed into what would be Khorne quite heavily before humans were beyond the single cell stage.
> 
> Ultimately though, it's pointless to try and apply mortal notions to something so vast and incomprehensible as the chaos gods, but we will continue to try nonetheless.


I suppose you're right about Nurgle, and I should've thought of that, haha. Thanks for clearing it up!

Now, assuming you were referencing my post, I didn't say one emotion came first or superseded the others. What determines the Chaos Gods' order of birth is at what point in time did that god's respective emotion(s) reach "critical mass", so to speak. It's not that early humans felt angry before they felt horny; there's no reason they couldn't feel both at the same time (as evidenced by some people today). I agree with your point about xeno emotions contributing more, however. It certainly lends credence to the claim that Khorne was born during Terra's Middle Ages, very, _very_ early in the 40k universe. But just think about this. 

We can all agree that, in our mortal timescale, Slaanesh was the last Chaos God to be born. What caused its birth, more than anything, was the psychic energy of the very emotional and empathetic eldar. Even so, it wasn't an instant thing, building up over - well, however long the Fall lasted (I want to say decades or centuries, but I'm not sure). Enough time, at least, for some eldar to see their wrongdoing and try to avoid their imminent fates. If humans had been directly responsible instead of eldar, it would've taken millennia (because the average human is not as psychically potent), if it even happened at all. Perhaps Khorne's threshold for coming into existence was far less than Slaanesh's, which is part of what I was getting at when I said rage and hatred are very primal, very base emotions for nearly all species (that we know of). You could argue that pleasure and lust are no different, but then why did Slaanesh require a psychically adept race to emit those emotions before it could be born? Because Slaanesh had a higher threshold. You have to keep in mind that humans, and other species, had been experiencing pleasure and lust for millions of years by the time Slaanesh came to be. That was like stacking the kegs of black powder, but a certain spark was needed - in this case, the Fall of the Eldar - before it could ignite.

And yes, all of these ramblings are ultimately insignificant, as we'll never truly understand the Warp. But if we don't try, we won't have anything cool to talk about, will we? All I need now is a veritable Fluff Guru to back me up... or politely shoot me down... either one!

:grin:


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

mpomnibus said:


> When the necrons and the old ones were fighting there was no chao gods, so we know they were made or born after that war. It is nice knowing that the chao gods were not always around so there is a chance of peace in this crazy galaxy :shok:


Not to be a douche here but sir I disagree. Even in your own statement you say that the gods were born after such and such a war. If the chaos gods fight and are somewhat larger representations of our own emotions, why would we not fight?


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Hasnt CoTE already answered OP? lol


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## Commissar Schultz (Feb 18, 2011)

So what are Gork and Mork considered? I think they to were created by the Old One's. Not sure if I read that for certain and/or if they were sticking to 40K, or Fantasy. Some one should make up a family tree of all these omnipotent beings. I think the Emperor is the youngest of the immortal cousins to be deified.

Not to get off track but did the Emperor make a deal with the devil(s) for the sort of power he had/has?

BTW DreMister. Your avatar kept me zombified for a few minutes, then I was like..wtf am I staring at and why?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Shag said:


> Not to be a douche here but sir I disagree. Even in your own statement you say that the gods were born after such and such a war. If the chaos gods fight and are somewhat larger representations of our own emotions, why would we not fight?


Technically, the Chaos Gods have always existed on some level within the Warp. They are manifestations of four base emotions in a realm of thought and emotion. As long as their were intelligent beings with emotions, they fed the Chaos Gods, some races and individuals more than others. But while they existed during those ancient wars, they were not yet fully manifested and unable to really affect the material universe, hence they had no real mortal followers at that time. So they we not a part of those wars.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What makes you refer to them as _"chaos"_ gods? It's not entirely clear exactly what the Eldar gods were/are. Educated guesses can be made, but there really isn't a lot of lore regarding them beyond vague myths.





Akatsuki13 said:


> The problem is that we have little idea on just what kind of being the Eldar Gods were. Some say that they were the first Eldar created by the Old One, and they in turn created the Eldar race as their children, or some other Old One-created-entity. Others say the Eldar Gods were the last of the Old Ones. GW has never really elaborated on just what they are. But I would say that they are different entities from the Chaos Gods. They could be some form of god-like Warp Entity but they could just as easily be god-like beings of the material universe. Of the Eldar Gods, most are dead, consumed by Slaanesh along with millions of Eldar. The Laughing God is alive in the Black Library, hidden in the Webway. Khaine's body has been ripped apart but his soul lives on, channeled into the body's of the Eldar that sacrifice themselves to become the Avatars of Khaine. Isha is _supposedly_ alive and trapped in Nurgle's Garden and whom the Chaos God loves like no other, an interesting fate considering that she's a goddess of healing. Ynnead is a God-to-be, not unlike the Chaos Gods before they were 'born', it exists but has yet to fully manifest and won't until all of the Craftworld Eldar have died and had their soulstones placed into the Infinity Circuits of their Craftworlds.


Thanks guys, I suppose I called them chaos gods in that I believed them to be warp entities like Khorne etc, however you've pointed out that no-one knows precisely what they are. I just presumed they were warp entities. Thinking about it they could have been like the Emperor in that they were incredibly powerful beings but not gods in the sense of Khorne. Their powers may have far exceeded most other corporeal beings (except possibly the C'Tan) but like the Emperor they were still mortal and thus could be killed.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I've never read any kind of Codex for Chaos, or any race for that matter -- but here is one thing to think about.

No where does its define 'mortals' in Warhammer 40k, no where does it definately say that intelligence beings are the only things that feed the Dark Gods.

To my knowledge in Warhammer, Khorne is a beast-like creature, Tzeentch is some goblin(ish) monster, and Nurgle is ... well he hasn't changed much (pun maybe?). That being said -- can the Dark Gods actually feed off the emotions of creatures who lack higher thought? They 'feel' on an instinctive level -- but they feel nonetheless. 

The Dark Gods could technically have been feeding off the emotions of creatures on a cellular level who fight for more survivalist needs, rather than land or conquest. Violence is essientally violence -- weather your scream it as the warlord of an army and gibber it at the other cell you're eating to nourish yourself.


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## connor (Jan 31, 2011)

Commissar Schultz said:


> Not to get off track but did the Emperor make a deal with the devil(s) for the sort of power he had/has?
> 
> If i remember correctly(or my mind is making stuff up again)
> 
> ...


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Connor- thats the fluff i agree and know. lol so it might be true.

Commisar- Be entranced. Dont fight the colors!


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## connor (Jan 31, 2011)

OOOOOOOO

it gives me an erection :grin:


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

based on the passages under Doombreed (Codex: Chaos Space Marines) and Uraka the Warfiend (IA 7), he was around even when they had castles and swords and stuff on Earth.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Epidemius said:


> based on the passages under Doombreed (Codex: Chaos Space Marines) and Uraka the Warfiend (IA 7)


All we know is that Khorne was _"young"_ (even though I'm loathe to use the word in this context) when _"nations"_ had arisen on ancient Terra, make of that as you will.

And in regards to Uraka, _IA7_ doesn't even state Uraka was a warlord on Terra.



Epidemius said:


> he was around even when they had castles and swords and stuff on Earth.


That's not really giving an accurate point on the timeline then.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i frmly believe that of all the gods Khorne is the one most attuned to human emotion so in that sense i think although they say the middle ages it could well be longer then that as they were spilling blood from the moment they realised they could take what they wanted by bashing someones skull in with a club,


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

gothik- Why wouldnt Eldar help attune Khorne? They got Khaine who is just as bloodthirsty and is there god of Vengeance. and What about the Orks? sure they dont directly praise him or know he exists, but all the same any anger or bloodshed in or not in Khornes name empowers him. I bet there's plenty of other races out there waging war and shedding blood. 

Though you are right to assume humans are the most potential contributers with their constant wars and the other human tribes and colonies spread all over who contanstly fight each other for survival.

CoTE- Wouldnt he be "young" in the sense that he had just fully awoken a few thousands years ago from when they referred to him in doombreeds entry? Like a baby being born and is still alive 12 months later.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> gothik- Why wouldnt Eldar help attune Khorne? They got Khaine who is just as bloodthirsty and is there god of Vengeance. and What about the Orks? sure they dont directly praise him or know he exists, but all the same any anger or bloodshed in or not in Khornes name empowers him. I bet there's plenty of other races out there waging war and shedding blood.
> 
> Though you are right to assume humans are the most potential contributers with their constant wars and the other human tribes and colonies spread all over who contanstly fight each other for survival.


i was going off human nature although you have a good point there. In my opinion and feel free to correct me if i am wrong, it seems that whilst the Orcs are indeed a violent race who live only for war to please thier own gods and the Eldar do indeed have a capacity for violence, it is - in my opinion - humans who shed the most blood when they war or if someone pisses them off on a night out with thier mates.

Case in point the Great Crusade, all was fine if you complied but if you didn't then millions would die just to bring you to heel and if each primarch did this on a regular basis that is a lot of blood to be spilt in Khornes direction and even now even thought they were not aware of just what thier violence was feeding, if chaos threatens a world it is destroyed if there is no way to save it.

i was regarding the human capacity for violence which has existed since they decided to take other humans lands and women etc etc which could feed Khorne whilst he was growing out in the warp. i suppose its a creation type thing, god created the world in 7 days...well in the cosmos time that could be 7 billion years and everyone knows the warp has wierd time flowing through it. 

In a way you are correct, with the Eldar, Dark Eldar and Orks, not just humans spilling blood and after all Khorne does not care where the blood comes from just as long as it flows and it does tend to be humans that shout his name when they hack into armies yelling blood for the blood god, and skulls for the skull throne therefore giving him more power.


Hopes and dreams eventually fade, plagues will eventually be cured and desire can be doused but so long as there is millions of soldiers fighting each other in a universe that has only known 10,000 years of violence and bloodshed acorss a billion worlds in the name of the dark gods or the emperor then Khorne is the one that will be sitting pretty.

the other reason being that the Eldar have thier own problems hiding thier souls from Slannesh to be overly concerned with Khorne and the others, the Orks seem to have only one mindset, well two if you thing spore then war but humans are the easiest to corrupt and to Khorne thats more of the walking talking monkeys to make him the oldest and more powerful of the gods.:grin:


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