# The HH book series is becoming a bit tiresome.



## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

I'm getting a bit tired of the series recently and the fatigue is definitely setting in. It's a bit grindy and with no end in sight I am worried that the series will run to 40-50 books and I get the feeling that it's being milked for all the cash they can get. 

Know no Fear was great, then 3 stinkers and I am not confident in Angel Exterminatus either. Mix all of this along with the limited expensive as hell novels and you've got quite the pot'o'gold. 

Would it not just be better to have the series: Start with a bit of back story, Horus turns traitor, couple of key events (Isstvan, Mars rebellion for example), a gathering of forces, the attack on Terra, outcome of that with a grand ending. Then branch it off with various legions stories and back story for them/their perspectives. Rather than this branching twisting "oh and then...oh and then this...don't forget this minor bullshit too", calamity we have now.

If the HH is a cake, then Dan Abnett and ADB are the frosting. The people upstairs do some market research and see that people really love the frosting, so the cake is now less cake and more frosting. The people upstairs spend less money on the cake and start using inferior ingredients with less care being given in the manufacture. Eventually the great frosting just can't compensate for the shitty cake.

Might be a bad day, or that I really want some cake but that's how I want to express my thoughts on the HH just now.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Some of the more pointless (and shit) books are starting to get tiresome. Events like Signus and Calth are nice, but "Angel Exterminatus" and a few others along with it just feel plain pointless. The biggest problem I have with the HH series right now is that apart from a few books (KNF, FtT) it is starting to feel very 40k. It has sort of lost the 30k vibe. 

Seriously, replace the word Legion with Chapter and replace the Primarchs with Chapter Masters on steroids, and you are reading the normal 40k bolter wank story.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not me, I'm still enjoying it, I know some hated Angel Exterminatus but I quite liked it, there were issues here and there but the main thing I enjoyed about it was the broadening of Perturabo's character.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I found Angel Exterminatus an excellent read as well for the same reasons cited above. Myself Ive not lost entusiasm for the Horus Heresy series, I find it have that excellent impending Paradise Lost vibe that makes it so different from 40K where Hope died a long time ago.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Have to agree with the OP, but personally I think the problem with the series of late is the writing quality has dropped by quite a considerable margin.

Partially this is due to the "filler" stories that they are telling, partially because of the speed their releasing stories

HH has turned into the the BL cash cow and their going to milk it


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've really not been that disappointed with the quality of the novels, there's some such as Outcast Dead, Battle for the Abyss, Nemesis and probably a couple of others that I didn't particularly enjoy but on the whole I like the majority of them.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Imho they should have planned 3 separate HH sagas. 

Main storyline: main events, post discovery primarchs in all their glory etc 10 to 15 books, no shit filler, no secondary stories

Primarch and Legion: Primarch discovery and Legion back story. 18 books. 

Side Story shit: titans, assassins and Grey Knight oh my. 

They kind have done this in a way. But this way you can have a must buy central line, marked as such and people can buy the filler they want. No way did we need two books on the sacking of the Thousand Sons, especially since the second had maybe 50 quality pages and the rest was shit.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

I'm struggling at the moment on Primarchs, the thing that worries me is because Im drudging through them atm it's leaving an aftertaste that sullies the better books, for instance I cant say I enjoyed Know No Fear.
I remain hopeful that the series will eventually get back to being energetic


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Kickback said:


> I'm struggling at the moment on Primarchs, the thing that worries me is because Im drudging through them atm it's leaving an aftertaste that sullies the better books, for instance I cant say I enjoyed Know No Fear.
> I remain hopeful that the series will eventually get back to being energetic



Dont give up, the final story in The Primarchs, The Serpent Beneath, is the best of the bunch.


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## Paceyjg (May 12, 2011)

I have enjoyed all of them pretty much - with the exception of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, and would consider not buying any more Dark Angel novels!

They can release as many as they like, as for me, they continue to have the edge over the 40K books available and you still get the odd gem!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

For me, the series took a dramatic nosedive after Prospero Burns, which was followed by a brief moment of spectacular storytelling (ok, that is a bit much, but it was pretty good) with Know No Fear, and then it shot right back down. The stories are becoming increasingly predictable and dull with each passing book. At this point, it feels like the writers are running out of steam. IMO, the pace needs to be picked up. However,this could just be my general dislike of most of the legions, but I certainly hope it picks up.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

Burnout and or running out of steam seem likely. It's the sort of thing the writers will never let on though. Must be a bit disappointing for them also.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Paceyjg said:


> I have enjoyed all of them pretty much - with the exception of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, and would consider not buying any more Dark Angel novels!
> 
> They can release as many as they like, as for me, they continue to have the edge over the 40K books available and you still get the odd gem!


Don't give up on them just yet. The short stories Savage Weapons, The Lion and Prince of Crows make up for the first two imo. True they aren't really in Prince of Crows that much, but the little tiny bit the Lion is in it, is awesome and they generally appear a lot more lethal. Savage Weapons is simply excellent though. ADB does what the other authors couldn't and really brings the story of the Lion out and gives the First Legion some real character and flavour, would really like to see ADB actually write a full Dark Angels novel in the series.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

You know if you get tired of it you don't have to read it, right? There are publishing companies other than BL.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

I have to disagree. I am still loving every minute of the series . Sure there are parts I haven't liked as much as others, but never have thought any novel, short story audio etc was "shit". The company can make all the money they want as far as I am concerned, I want the series to fully cover everything, as long as it takes. If I wasn't enjoying it anymore , id sinply stop reading it or read something else.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Don't give up on them just yet. The short stories Savage Weapons, The Lion and Prince of Crows make up for the first two imo. True they aren't really in Prince of Crows that much, but the little tiny bit the Lion is in it, is awesome and they generally appear a lot more lethal. Savage Weapons is simply excellent though. ADB does what the other authors couldn't and really brings the story of the Lion out and gives the First Legion some real character and flavour, would really like to see ADB actually write a full Dark Angels novel in the series.


i have never liked the Lion, however, after reading ADBs characterisation of him in Prince of Crows, i did start having a little respect for him, he will never be my favourite Primarch, but at least i read a tale with him that had him with a hell of a lot of personality


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Would agree with much that was said. What I fear is that the novels really have been milked with a style thats new and wanted by many newer Heresy Fans. If they like it, I don't see very positive things happening in the novels until we get to the Siege... and a once in a while ADB novel. 

The problem with ADB's novels is that they have a lot of effort in them. He doesn't just make up something redicolous up out of thin air. He spends as much time on the Characters as he does the plot. In that sense I don't think his rate in novels will change. But I guess I wouldn't have it other way. The only disapointment is the tiresome novels that are being milked out with extreme imagination and carelessness. These are flooding the Heresy Series like crazy. I feel like over half of them could really have been done better.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

I feel its a mixed bag. I still love the series but there are books I really dislike. I do hope the series goes on for a long time tho and am in no way bored of it. 

Horus Rising - Excellent
False Gods- Ok
Galaxy in Flames - Ok
The Flight of the Eisenstein - Good
Fulgrim - Good
Decent of Angels - Poor
Legion - Excellent
Battle for the Abyss - Ok
Mechanicum - Good
Tales of Heresy - Ok
Fallen Angels - Dreadful
A Thousand Sons - Excellent
Nemisis - Good
The First Heretic - Excellent
Prospero Burns - Poor
Age of Darkness - Good
The Outcast Dead - Dreadful
Deliverance Lost - Poor
Know No Fear - Excellent
The Primarchs - Dreadful
Fear to Tread - Good
Shadows of Treachery - Good
Angel Exterminatus - Poor

Five - Excellent
Seven - Good
Four - Ok
Four - Poor
Three - Dreadful

As I said, mixed bag for me.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

mal310 said:


> I feel its a mixed bag. I still love the series but there are books I really dislike. I do hope the series goes on for a long time tho and am in no way bored of it.
> 
> Horus Rising - Excellent
> False Gods- Ok
> ...


This is more or less the list I would make and something I almost made in my first post. It's how the series so far feels overall that bothers me and like your list, it's a mixed bag sadly.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

the only problem is by far most of the "dreadful" and "poor" are in the last half of the series. Plus I would say you've been lenient in some of your grading. It shows a different turn in how they are written in my opinion.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

My own ratings:

Horus Rising - Excellent
False Gods- Decent
Galaxy in Flames - Decent
The Flight of the Eisenstein - Excellent
Fulgrim - Excellent
Decent of Angels - Ok
Legion - Excellent
Battle for the Abyss - Passable
Mechanicum - Good
Tales of Heresy - Ok
Fallen Angels - Ok
A Thousand Sons - Excellent
Nemisis - Passable
The First Heretic - Excellent
Prospero Burns - Poor
Age of Darkness - Passable
The Outcast Dead - Ok
Deliverance Lost - Passable
Know No Fear - Excellent
The Primarchs - Passable
Fear to Tread - Excellent
Shadows of Treachery - Ok
Angel Exterminatus - Good

I really enjoyed most of them. Didnt find any to be truly dreadful. Even Battle for the Abyss had its redeeming points like Mhotep. And I found the Outcast Dead to be an interesting read, especially with some of the revelations about the Thunder Warriors and the cameos of the Emperor, which made up for the poorer sections. It was also what which pulled Deliverance Lost above trash status, due to the revelations about the creation of the Primarchs.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Actually on the topic of Angel Exterminatus, I think there's more to it, I think it ties in with Feat of Iron from the Primarch anthology, and we may yet see more of the repercussions and possibly something more to do with Ferrus.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> My own ratings:
> 
> Horus Rising - Excellent
> False Gods- Decent
> ...


I'm not being a bitch about asking why I want you to tell me how you could like this book to give it an Excellent rating. I am just very curious because I wanted to enjoy the first book that had Sanguinius as a main character, only to feel he was wasted. Also that I felt the entire book was a bore from start to finish. 

It was this book and the 2 fucking short story books we got recently that prompted this thread in the first place.

Please tell me, I am being sincere I swear


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Your not alone. It's become rather evident that _Fear to Tread_ is probably the most 'Marmite' Heresy book to date, perhaps even more so than _Prospero Burns_, there are a good deal of people on here who thinks its top notch, Lord of the Night and Bane of Kings for instance. And then theres others like CKcrawford and Phoebus who found it to be disappointing. Or in my case, consider it to be the worst book of the series. Very, very divided opinions on the novel in almost every single aspect.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Well, I found Fear to thread to be a good read, mainly because of the focus on Sanguinius whom until now didnt have much air time. Even if his supporting cast was rather weak. Plus the ending left me curious to see what he will do in the Unremembered Empire.
As well the tieins to the 40k Blood Angels books which I also enjoyed.

Plus I thought the Signus Prime battle was the real treat of the book and quite well done, seeing the beginnings of the Flesh Tearers and the origin of the Red Angel. No pun intended, theres Horus Heresy books with far less bite in them. *grin*


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

TooNu said:


> I'm not being a bitch about asking why I want you to tell me how you could like this book to give it an Excellent rating. I am just very curious because I wanted to enjoy the first book that had Sanguinius as a main character, only to feel he was wasted. Also that I felt the entire book was a bore from start to finish.
> 
> It was this book and the 2 fucking short story books we got recently that prompted this thread in the first place.
> 
> Please tell me, I am being sincere I swear


It is irritating. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. But seriously... _speechless._ There's the special ops thing with astartes infliterating and escaping impossible situations within certain novels... I can live with that I guess. I didn't like it... but okay. Legion novels however... require a greater standard of writing. Especially if it's an important battle. 

I would like to ask Brother Lucian more questions, but I don't want to look like I'm attacking your opinion so I wont. 

I will say that it's mind bottling the newer readers for the most part have a different outlook of the series. I wonder if it has something to do with jumping novels. Perhaps reading _A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim_, or _Know no Fear_ they look at books like _Horus Rising_ and go... :shok: fucken bored out of my mind! It seems like the expectations of Bolter Porn is genuinely at an all time high. 

For me it no longer feels like a novel about ancient Imperial History, thats the vibe I got off books like _Horus Rising_ and the earlier novels. It seems more like a 400 page comic book with no pictures.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> It is irritating. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. But seriously... _speechless._ There's the special ops thing with astartes infliterating and escaping impossible situations within certain novels... I can live with that I guess. I didn't like it... but okay. Legion novels however... require a greater standard of writing. Especially if it's an important battle.
> 
> I would like to ask Brother Lucian more questions, but I don't want to look like I'm attacking your opinion so I wont.
> 
> ...



I can asure you Ive read each and every of the Horus Heresy novels in the order of releasse, and generally Ive found them more enjoyable than many 40k books. Liking the march towards an unavoidable doom, that vibe that is so prevalent in 30k. 

Granted there is superb 40k books like Execution Hour, but I am simply unable to grasp why people are swooning over books like Hellsreach or Legion of the Damned. The first I found a bore and rather long winded and dragging, the second had more to do with false expectations, building it up to be a book about the LOD, when it wasnt true.

Edit: I also own every Black Library book publication, including Warhammer Fantasy, so Ive been reading for a good many years.
Edit 2: In regard to Warhammer Fantasy, Ive been greatly enjoying the Fantasy HH equivalent in Time of Legends, especially the Sigmar, Malekith and Nagash books. And the just released Neferata book was quite a treat for a fan of the undead, noting how it ties in with the second Sigmar book.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I think there's a difference between 'ties in' and 'references'. For example, _Feat of Iron_ explicitly references _Angel Exterminatus_, but are they, really, thematically linked? Do you get much from them in combination that's _more_ than simple two books and their attendant benefits?

By that mind, I think _Aurelian_ ties into _Fulgrim_. I'd say that _Battle of the Fang_ ties into _Prospero Burns_ and _A Thousand Sons_ to such a degree that, with only two of the three, the enjoyment is much smaller than 'two thirds' of the enjoyment of the three. 

(Does that make sense? 1+1+1 > 3, whereas for the likes of the Opening Trilogy of _Horus Rising, False Gods_ and _Galaxy in Flames_, 1+1+1 = 3. They follow on directly, and reading one of them on their own is likely a big bit of a let down, but as a trilogy they're not _that_ good.)

The main failing of the Prospero duology, in that regard, is that they don't really dovetail together in the way they 'ought' to. With _Battle of the Fang_, suddely they seem to fit together much more appropriately. They're not a trilogy, by any means, but a fine trio that ties together much more satisfyingly.

Being disappointed with _Legion of the Damned_ as you explain, BrotherLucian, just makes us, as humans, seem a wee bit silly - don't you think? Our expectations and daft ideas ruin our enjoyment of things so easily! (If I could beg of you, given that I enjoyed it immensely, do one-day give it a less expectant re-read!  )


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I did as well find LoD to be a fairly forgettable book, much better ones out there in my oppinion. But we are all different in beliefs and oppinions, would be boring if we all were alike.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> I can asure you Ive read each and every of the Horus Heresy novels in the order of releasse, and generally Ive found them more enjoyable than many 40k books. Liking the march towards an unavoidable doom, that vibe that is so prevalent in 30k.
> 
> Granted there is superb 40k books like Execution Hour, but I am simply unable to grasp why people are swooning over books like Hellsreach or Legion of the Damned. The first I found a bore and rather long winded and dragging, the second had more to do with false expectations, building it up to be a book about the LOD, when it wasnt true.
> 
> ...


_Legion of the Damned Blurb_:



> Following the trajectory of a blood-red comet, the berserk World Eaters blaze a path of destruction across the galaxy in its wake. The small cemetery world of Certus Minor appeals to the Space Marines of the Excoriators Chapter for protection, but the force dispatched to deal with this grim threat is far too small and their losses against the renegades are high. Just as all seems lost, salvation is borne out of legend itself as sinister spectral warriors descend upon this planet of the dead, and the enemies of the Imperium come face to face with those who have already travelled beyond the realm of the living...


If you've read the blurb, you'll find that the main focus was going to be on the Excoriators. Otherwise it'd be this guy is a member of the Legion of the Damned, haven awaken from whatever, is now going to save the Excoriators from certain death etc. Main focus clearly on Excoriators from the blurb. The cover and title on the other hand I'm willing to admit paints it as a Legion of the Damned novel, but nothing else does. 



Brother Lucian said:


> My own ratings:
> 
> Horus Rising - Excellent
> False Gods- Decent
> ...


Here's mine:

_Horus Rising_ - Excellent
_False Gods_ - OK 
_Galaxy in Flames_ - OK
_The Flight of the Eisenstein_ - Excellent
_Fulgrim_ - Excellent
_Descent of Angels_ - Awful
_Legion_ - Excellent
_Tales of Heresy_ - Mixed, some stories excellent, some poor. 
_Battle for the Abyss_ - Awful
_Nemesis_ - OK
_A Thousand Sons_ - Excellent
_The First Heretic_ - Excellent
_Prospero Burns_ - Excellent
_Age of Darkness_ - Good
_The Outcast Dead_ - OK upon a re-read. Liked it more the first time I read it.
_Deliverance Lost_ - Good
_Know No Fear_ - Excellent, Best Horus Heresy novel to date.
_The Primarchs_ - Good
_Fear to Tread_ - Very Good
_Shadows of Treachery_ - Very Good
_Angel Exterminatus_ - Very Good


Awful, OK, Good, Very Good, Excellent in that order. Awful 1 star, Excellent 5 star. If anyone wants reasons then I'll be happy to explain.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If only we could have a civil war somehow. Seriously, there is clear division of opinion here.

"23 Books and several audios ago, our Black Library Authors, brought fourth to this forum some awesome books for a great Heresy Series. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, to determine if novels are better now or were better back then."

This is the speech I'll write when we defeat you guys at The Battle of Thisreallysucksburgh or the Battle of Whyisthisrateda10burn.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding the LoD, what I kind of had expected to see would be flashbacks to when the excoriators had served with the fire hawks. Remiisciencing on their past history, then proceeding with the plot of certus minor, where at last the scourge suddenly recognizes the decrepit figure that had been haunting him, a marine he called brother from their chapter that came back to honor a last promise to him. Perhaps the scourge having saved him once while he still was alive.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think the only thing wrong with LotD was the title, it should of been a bit more vague. I've noticed this a lot with the space marine battle books, both this one and Gildar Rift essentially gave away the end via title or art.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think the only thing wrong with LotD was the title, it should of been a bit more vague. I've noticed this a lot with the space marine battle books, both this one and Gildar Rift essentially gave away the end via title or art.


I agree on that one for LoD. Though what was wrong with Gildar Rift?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It has the picture of what happens in the end.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It has the picture of what happens in the end.




That sure doesnt look like the silver skulls captain, but more like a chaplain helmet to me.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Brother Lucian said:


> That sure doesnt look like the silver skulls captain, but more like a chaplain helmet to me.




Silver Skull Captains wear half skulls for helms and he's using lightning claws.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Silver Skull Captains wear half skulls for helms and he's using lightning claws.


I see, must have missed that bit. In that case I agree it was a poorly chosen image.


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think the only thing wrong with LotD was the title, it should of been a bit more vague.


LotD has a title with a literal and symbolic meaning. It features the Legion, and for all they go through, the Excoriators seem a damned legion as well. Damned to guard at the Eye, damned with Dorn's black-out disease, damned that their chapter master is poisoned and no one can find a cure, etc. Sanders even mentioned something to this effect on his blog.

I know (and understand) that a lot of people have issues with:

the amount of LotD's time and action in the book
a cover that shows something that is representative of less than 1% of the book
etc.

but....it is a damn well written book. And Kersh is a more than serviceable protagonist.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

I'm also finding the last few HH books a bit of a grind. In fact, I've gone back to co-reading the Eisenhorn and Ravenor Omnibuses just to get some better writing back into me. Will I still buy each and every new HH book and read it? Yes. If just like the pace to pick up a little.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah I still loved LotD, I didn't have a problem with it, but I can see how it can mislead people.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Brother Subtle said:


> I'm also finding the last few HH books a bit of a grind. In fact, I've gone back to co-reading the Eisenhorn and Ravenor Omnibuses just to get some better writing back into me. Will I still buy each and every new HH book and read it? Yes. If just like the pace to pick up a little.


I did the same thing. I started re-reading 40k books... Here's my problem. Since I was a teenager I have been reading short stories are references about the HH in White Dwarf and it intrigued me to no end. The imperium at the height of it's power and then the great betrayal that shook the pillars of Heaven... And then they started releasing HH books which started out pretty good even if I was never impressed with Horus. My biggest problem is that as epic as the HH was, the books aren't epic. 

For example, compare Mechanicus and Titanicus. Titanicus, I thought, was an epic novel. The titans were GOD MACHINES and I felt like I was right there in that huge engine war. Then I read Mechanicus and thought that would be like Titanicus on steroids... except that it has a small story feel to it. It felt like we were being rushed through a story line so we could get to a lack luster battle and then on to the next book. There was just nothing epic about that epic battle.

Decent of Angels isn't even an HH book. It just happens to be part of the series. Battle of the Abyss would have been better as a short story. Hated it. Unlike Brother Subtle, I just can't bring myself to read each and every HH book anymore. Maybe Black library just isn't being selective enough with it's choice of writers, maybe it's just milking us for money with sub par books, I don't know. What I do know is that most of these books have more of a feel of a reading assignment to them and not so much enjoyment.

Sorry for all the negativity, that's just how I feel...


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Don't feel sorry! We're all entitled to our opinions.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

cheeto said:


> For example, compare Mechanicus and Titanicus. Titanicus, I thought, was an epic novel. The titans were GOD MACHINES and I felt like I was right there in that huge engine war. Then I read Mechanicus and thought that would be like Titanicus on steroids... except that it has a small story feel to it. It felt like we were being rushed through a story line so we could get to a lack luster battle and then on to the next book. There was just nothing epic about that epic battle.
> 
> Decent of Angels isn't even an HH book. It just happens to be part of the series.


Agreed. Was really disappointed with "Mechanicus", and "Decent of Angels" was a Warhammer Fantasy book with bolt pistols and chainswords, with a 40k short story chucked in at the end.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Doelago said:


> Agreed. Was really disappointed with "Mechanicus", and "Decent of Angels" was a Warhammer Fantasy book with bolt pistols and chainswords, with a 40k short story chucked in at the end.


Not every world of the imperium is supposed to be high tech worlds, many are quite backwards. Such as death or feudal worlds. With only few surviving tidbits of technology as seen on Caliban.


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## March of Time (Dec 4, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Not every world of the imperium is supposed to be high tech worlds, many are quite backwards. Such as death or feudal worlds. With only few surviving tidbits of technology as seen on Caliban.


:goodpost:


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## Duke_Leto (Dec 11, 2010)

All personal opinion but mine is that the most recent HH novels have been a real return to form. I'm thinking:

Know No Fear (IMO one of the best BL books ever)
Fear To Tread
Shadows of Treachery (admittedly this anthology does include older stories)

and I have high hopes for Betrayer, Mark of Calth and Unremembered Empire (we'll see about Angel Exterminatus).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

To be fair, _Mechanicum_ was well written and had just as much action to any Heresy novel. I can understand it was a different sect of the Imperium, but to say it was a dissapointment I don't think is very fair. Especially if you like _Fear to Tread_ and _Angel Exterminatus._ I just don't think thats very consistent. It was pretty much 90% bolter porn, and explained how the Imperium works (in terms of technology). Even with the Bolter Porn it contributed to fluff according to the Imperium in General. 

I have my own opinion about _Descent of Angels._ When it first came out I was highly dissapointed. Especially because it was a novel about one of the coolest legions at the time. It felt like a reading assignment as someone said. But since the characters and good plots have begun dissapearing, I have begun to appreciate it more and more. The characters were awesome. And its because of that book that many people were emotional about the events in The Lion. It also had history and mystery, which is clearly lacking in most of the recent novels.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Part of the problem is that some of the BL writers are poor writers. Not every book they do, but often large sections of their books are complete tosh and you end up skim reading as fast as possible to get to the good bits. 

I've started listening to the books on audio and with some writers you just tune them out because the drivel they are spouting out cannot be related to properly. They use stupid terms to describe simple things because they think it will make it sound more futuristic and there is serious over use of metaphors. Sometimes there are metaphors on metaphors and it just creates a wtf are you on about reaction. 

I've not read or listened to all in the series. Some i've skipped because I suspect they will be poor, others i've just not gotten around to.

Dan Abnett is arguably the best of the writers and i've been a fan of his work during the Dragonlance series. His writing is more traditional and he generally doesnt add in made up terms that make you cringe. 

Graham McNeill is the king of drivel. His books are full of long winded metaphors and made up terminology that isnt necessary. However, he's good at creating conversation between characters, and I put up with the drivel to get to the good stuff.

I am concerned that they are just going to drag the series out to make money. This is GW after all and leeching people of money is what they do. If it wasnt for the books I wouldnt have anything to do with the company. As such there are some books that dont interest me. Mechanicum for example. 

I do like some of the spin offs. The Garro series I like. I wanted to know what happened to him, and loken (ooh spolier). It was obviously hinted at that he would be a Grey Knight but its been good to see it happen.

I don't like the constant contradiction in stories. It's frustrating when you have versions of the same events difference severely from one another. Prospero was a shocking book, partly because of what was said in Thousand Sons. 

So for now I will carryon reading/listening but a couple more bad books and i probably will stop. Listening to Fear to Tread at the moment. POOR.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Stephen74 said:


> This is GW after all and leeching people of money is what they do.


I love it when people talk about GW like this, as if they're not a business out to make money. Like every other business.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I love it when people talk about GW like this, as if they're not a business out to make money. Like every other business.


Of course they are a business out to make money but that doesnt mean you screw over your customers. 

Way back when I first started playing the game I remember being in a store and hearing the salesmen convincing customers to by the winds of magic set saying they needed it to play the game blah blah blah... I knew full well that in two days time the whole magic system was being replaced and what these people were buying would be completely useless. Thats £25 (i think) that was effectively being stolen from them with the company being completely dishonest with new customers. IMO I dont think thats the way a business should behave. I dont care if they are looking to make money. 

Since then i've seen plenty of similar things to the point where I will not even consider going in to a GW store where I know someone will just start harrassing me to buy something.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Stephen74 said:


> Of course they are a business out to make money but that doesnt mean you screw over your customers


Ethics will only be a factor insofar as it affects profit

If "ethical" business practices will result in more profit, I'm sure BL will adopt them. 

However, it's also possible that BL's management have made an error of judgment (certain practices viewed as unethical by consumers will hurt rather than help profit and BL will only correct after profit takes a dive)


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Stephen74 said:


> As such there are some books that dont interest me. Mechanicum for example. .


That's a shame. You've missed what I consider the dark horse of the series. I severely enjoyed it, it was a break away from 'grrr argg! I'm a nigh invincible space marine grrr argg!' to a look into the dark and seedy industrial works of Mars and all of the plotting and back stabbing that went with it's downfall. 

My mind just boggles at how people thought it was a shit book. I guess I read The Kaban Project in Collected Visions beforehand and that story is continued (in part) in Mechanicum. Maybe that helped?


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## Zero Effect (Feb 15, 2011)

Brother Subtle said:


> That's a shame. You've missed what I consider the dark horse of the series. I severely enjoyed it, it was a break away from 'grrr argg! I'm a nigh invincible space marine grrr argg!' to a look into the dark and seedy industrial works of Mars and all of the plotting and back stabbing that went with it's downfall.
> 
> My mind just boggles at how people thought it was a shit book.


Totally agree with you on this. I found learning more about the life on Mars a thrilling read and it is one of the books of the series I was unable to put down.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> That's a shame. You've missed what I consider the dark horse of the series. I severely enjoyed it, it was a break away from 'grrr argg! I'm a nigh invincible space marine grrr argg!' to a look into the dark and seedy industrial works of Mars and all of the plotting and back stabbing that went with it's downfall.
> 
> My mind just boggles at how people thought it was a shit book. I guess I read The Kaban Project in Collected Visions beforehand and that story is continued (in part) in Mechanicum. Maybe that helped?


The reason I skipped over that book is because I cant stand the made up technojargon that gets used in 40K books. It's horrific, and given the nature of the mechanicum I just didnt think I would be able to stand it. Just thinking about poly-plas and gen-hanced makes me want to :suicide:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I've only just returned to the Heresy series, and only because of AD-B. I'm half way through _Betrayer_ and I am glad I took the time (and money) to read it. But other than AD-B's novels, I simply have no desire to read any of them at the moment - I haven't managed to read beyond the first page of _Angel Exterminatus_.

The series was becoming tiresome a while ago for me, probably ever since the Prospero duology. The series has spouted out too much shit since then and generally just seems much too unorganised for me to be bothered about it any more. So much wasted potential...



Angel of Blood said:


> ...there are a good deal of people on here who thinks its top notch, Lord of the Night and Bane of Kings for instance.


They think everything is top notch though :wink:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They think everything is top notch though :wink:


No just most of BL's output is top notch. But i've had some disappointments with some releases.


LotN


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The more info they release the more my ideas for an actual army change.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Hail everyone.

I really find the argument that BL are just churning out stories to the masses for purely profitable reasons to be floored. There are many tales to be told. Though like everything, we either like it, don't or are nonplussed. It's the reason of choice. 

Personally I liked Descent of Angels for the story behind the scene. One of a planet devoid of Imperial technology, of men holding out against beasts so monstrous that many hid behind walls and clung for safety. A hardy few venturing out for the hunt and defend those who could not wield a weapon effectively. However, notwithstanding that it was a weaker link within the series.

Some brilliant novels have been released, some not so much. As someone mentioned, the series is starting to lose that grandiose feeling of the original novels (and First Heretic) of that 30K feel. 

I was listening to the Shadow of Treacheries while walking around shopping the other day. Their is a line with Sevatar (I forget the novella's name) "... ladies I'm here"... just casually turning up to rescue his wayward lord after going through hell to get there. It's exactly how I imagined it. Anyway, I hasten to add that I laughed out loud while in Next. A Awkward moment.

One thing is indisputable, the effort into creating the Horus Heresy series we know so far is creatively brilliant. 

The future releases show promise. I'm still to read The Betrayer.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> No just most of BL's output is top notch.


I couldn't disagree with you more.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.


Fair enough. We don't live in the Imperium of Man, hence you can believe whatever you choose to. 


LotN


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## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

Lord of the Night said:


> Fair enough. We don't live in the Imperium of Man, hence you can believe whatever you choose to.
> 
> 
> LotN


I must not be as critical as others, cause I agree, I have only read a couple bad BL books. They all arent exceptional by any means, but most are at least entertaining which I guess is my bar =)


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> Hail everyone.
> 
> 
> One thing is indisputable, the effort into creating the Horus Heresy series we know so far is creatively brilliant.
> ...


I disagree with that somewhat. Having read other series in genres that have a background deffined for them. For example, the Dragonlance world, or even the Warcraft world, the 'lore' is conducted better and you dont get the huge contradictions from one author to another that you get with 40k. It's like they just agree a synopsis with an author and then it's full speed ahead and damn the content. 

That makes the series a real dissapointment because the 40K world and inparticular the HH has an amazing background that puts it on par with Dragonlance and Starwars etc... Then they spoil it with things like the Wolves of Fenris.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The difference being that Dragonlance had 2 core writters that produced an OMG huge amount of writtings to flesh out the worldsetting. Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. Other writters have only been allowed to do minor sideplot stories. Such an approach brings a far more cohesive world with the much stricter editorial control.

In comparision Warhammer have always been far more sandboxy, individual writters settling on particular areas to flesh them out. And thusly we are seeing the issues and inconsistencies when having to try making all the monkeys write in tandem within the Horus Heresy setting, where the releases are interlinked on a much higher degree than sandbox 40k.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

People who like to lore bash authors should read this:

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress...lack-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/

In particular:

Marc Gascoigne said it best in an old quote, when he was Head of Black Library:

“Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about “canonical background” will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…

Here’s our standard line: Yes it’s all official, but remember that we’re reporting back from a time where stories aren’t always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let’s put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex… and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a “big question” doesn’t matter. It’s all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is “Yes and no” or perhaps “Sometimes”. And for me, that’s the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be “sometimes” or “it varies” or “depends”.

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It’s a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.“

Sorry about the mega-cut copy. But I think it's very relevant for this topic.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Brother Subtle said:


> People who like to lore bash authors should read this:
> 
> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress...lack-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/
> 
> ...


I've spent 5 years reading Ancient History and the Classics at university. Nothing I've read is ever 100% accurate. Most evidence is told from one individuals/states point of view and the evidence is (the majority of the time) fragmented and pieced together. I just applied the same ethos to the Horus Heresy. 

It is true that the victors write the final history of a conflict/war (etc). However to counter that; on the one hand we have several stories told from the legions/imperial armies point of view. On the other we've got many more tales told from the traitors aspects. So that is certainly a debatable statement. Though given that, I don't like to apply such literal thinking to BL works haha.


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