# Versus... Flamers of Tzeentch



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi all,

Continuing with the Fantasy Versus... series, next on the list is Flamers of Tzeentch (suggested by Master Andael and melforn). If you want to add your suggestions as to who Fantasy Versus should deal with next, go here for the general thread.

So, Flamers of Tzeentch, how do you combat these irritating walking flame throwers? They have high movement and are skirmishing so can go pretty much where they like. They have flaming attacks and the standard daemonic save, but best of all they have Flames of Tzeentch. D6 S4 flaming hits with good range and no multiple shot to hit modifier. Of course the thing that really makes them good is the ability to stand and shoot, making them a nasty prospect if charged.

So how do you plan to combat them? Do you have a preferred unit or tactic that works every time? Do you just rely on shooting and artillery and hope your opponent fails the saves enough? Are you always able to counter with your own powerful units? Do you take a unit with immunity to flaming attacks just for this very eventuality?


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I have 3 units of 10 skirmishing human archers and in the 4 games I've played against them they are yet to let me down. The volleygun with engineer is another good way of making them think twice about approaching things I don't want them to.
With my chaos dwarves Earthshaker cannon to slow them down and massed missile fire or try to get them to charge a big block of troops and watch them crumble failing that a fireproof bullcentaur character going hunting.
Ogres massed gnoblar sharp stuff or leadbelchers although I prefer to use the cannons on bigger block units.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Here's a couple of solutions to them that I've had work.

First off, massed missile fire (although that's less useful with a WoC army and the skirmishing makes this a less than ideal solution).

Second, send cheap disposable troops at them, this is generally pretty handy but you run the risk of them killing your disposable troops quickly and moving on to other less disposable units.

Third options takes a bit of planning and luck and involves a fast unit and a wizard with the lore of shadows (or one of the other lore's movement spells). Basically you charge up to within your move of them (so they lose the stand and shoot reaction) then use your magic phase to charge them and cut them into little pieces. Disadvantages of this should be pretty self evident, you are relying on getting the spell off, if you don't your cavalry unit will likely get toasted by the flamers.


Edit: Just had another thought that might work, MSU of cheap stuff could work nicely as a counter (I was thinking MSU chaos marauders, but any other cheap troop will do!) The flamers are good at putting out enough shots to take lots of trooops out, but I wonder what they will do when presented with several squishy targets which are putting out charge arcs so they can be charged wherever they go!


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

msu sounds interesting. flamers are sick so anything that help is awesome


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

Problem with the MSU is yeah they won't take them all out on the way in, but flamers are nasty even in cc so best to get them with something strong which has combat rez to force wounds and also get close before charging.

Lot's of focused long range shooting will do it too as they are only medium ranged.

Or send in a large cheap unit to just tie them up for many turns and forget about them.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

newsun said:


> Or send in a large cheap unit to just tie them up for many turns and forget about them.


The problem with this is that as their skirmishers, they can just give you large cheap unit the run around whilst peppering them with magical fire. The MSU approach was more so that you can put enough charge arcs down that they don't have much chance to go anywhere that you can't charge them and then set up for the flank/rear charge on the next turn.

I agree that lots of long range shooting is perhaps the easiest way to take them down, but mainly playing WoC and VC, I don't often have that luxury!

My MSU plan involved using either Khorne or Nurgle marauders w/great weapons. Khornate ones with have 10-12 S5 attacks per unit which should muller flamers if they get the charge. The Nurgle ones will be harder for the flamers to hit on the way in and also in combat. Ideally I think the Khorne ones would be best, but they can be baited off with some other unit by your opponent.


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

but fielding MSU is not really going to help much when your not VC or O&G. these 2 armies can easily employ this strategy but i dont see dark elves or something do the same. not without sacrificing a lot of points to just get rid of something that costs around 200p


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Heavy Cav works good against them, preferably 1+ save ones. They wont take that many casulties from their flames and are fast enough to hunt them down

2 RnF inf units can also do the work, it helps up if they have somewhat decent move. Basically run both units against the Flamers, they cant shoot both and Flamers will wither away in CC in the long run

Monsters are also a good option if you have. Stegadons, Dragons, Manticores, Hydras and so on can take the pain they dish out and still be there to chew them down next CC phase:wink:

But the real bane of all small skirmish units is Magic Missiles(and the Organ Gun thanks to autohit). Multiple hits on, almost never under, S4 makes all small skirmish units :cray:


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I think the best chance darkelves has is a unit of 5 harpies, plus something with some punch. They both declare a charge, with the harpies going first, they shoot harpies to pieces and then the unit with punch does the damage.

With vc i would imagine it would involve raise dead and vanhals or just vanhals on the right unit. Raise dead can be used just to block los and march block them each turn whilst whatever you dont want them shooting gets into play. 

If you know your definately facing them [have a mate that uses 12 every game?] could take a couple of 5 man units and a couple of 20 man units of dire wolves, and again double charge with the 5 man going first. Or again same thing with wolves + vargulf/blackcoach/black knights


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

*jigplums*:

the only problem is that they can choose which unit to shoot at - so they could just ignore the harpies. The only way to do it would be to have the harpies charge at under 10" - thus denying the flamers the option of stand and shoot. 

Never gone against flamers, but I'd say the best option would still be a good unit of heavy cavalry, as MaidenManiac said, possibly backed up with a light flanking unit (like harpies maybe?) - so they'll either have to choose being flanked, or have to shoot at a cheap expendable unit.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

dont have my rulebook in front of me but i pretty sure you choose what order you move chargers in so you choose harpies first. if they dont stand and shoot them they are in cc when your next unit hits


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

I also don't have my rulebook, but I thought the charge procedure was:

1) Declare charges
2) Declare charge reactions
3) Do charge reactions
4) Move chargers

It doesn't matter what order you move your chargers in because the charge reaction has already taken place..

Again I might be wrong, someone with rulebook at hand - some clarification please?


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Page 19, in the stand and shoot section it says that shooting is worked out BEFORE moving any chargers, during the move chargers phase. So the Flamers would get to shoot at either unit, before they charge. As it happens when multiple units charge the same target, they are moved simultaneously (p.23) so it isn't possible for one unit to get in the way of shooting the other.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

maddermax said:


> the only problem is that they can choose which unit to shoot at - so they could just ignore the harpies. The only way to do it would be to have the harpies charge at under 10" - thus denying the flamers the option of stand and shoot...





jigplums said:


> dont have my rulebook in front of me but i pretty sure you choose what order you move chargers in so you choose harpies first. if they dont stand and shoot them they are in cc when your next unit hits





squeek said:


> Page 19, in the stand and shoot section it says that shooting is worked out BEFORE moving any chargers, during the move chargers phase. So the Flamers would get to shoot at either unit, before they charge...


Just to try to make this clear: pg 19 states that if *ALL* of the units charging are moving over ½ their move the unit can S&S. Maddermax's example is very accurate on preventing S&S, which also is the only way of doing it. If one unit can make it into B2B without moving over ½ their move then all other units are safe from S&S too, thanks to them distracting the target unit fast enough.
Moving one unit first was ok in 6th but aint so anymore. This is a small change that older players might very well have missed


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Well spotted Maiden I forgot to mention that little tidbit


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

i think we are both correct in a way[you slightly more than me though ]

reading up it says on pg 20 under move chargers. chargers are resolved one at a time in the order in which they were declared. at which point you do stand and shoot. however mulptiple chargers says When 2 or more friendly units are charging against a single enemy unit's FRONT, FLANK, or REAR they are moved simulataneously.

This would mean if you can get the harpies to charge the flank of a unit whlie another unit charged the front they would move in seperately, thus denying stand and shoot. however flamers are skirmishers so that doesn't work. Ah well back to the drawing board


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

jigplums said:


> ...This would mean if you can get the harpies to charge the flank of a unit whlie another unit charged the front they would move in seperately, thus denying stand and shoot. however flamers are skirmishers so that doesn't work. Ah well back to the drawing board


Yea skirmishing shooters are a pain 
About the cleaver moving part I'd still say no. Its stated that S&S is "worked out just before moving chargers" on pg 19. At pg 20 its followed up with "remember to work out any S&S..._before_ measuring if the chargers have made it into contact with the intended target". Its imho clear that the only way to stop S&S is by moving under ½ your chargemove

However a unit charging a non-360 degree LoS shooter in the side will naturally be safe from S&S thanks to LoS issues:wink:


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Just commenting on a bretonnian list, and I realised I'd almost forgotten about one of my favourite pieces of wargear that would be perfect against these guys - the banner of Chalons! 

For the cost of a biting blade, the banner stops all stand and shoot reactions against your unit - so heavy cavalry on the charge, and no stand and shoot = dead flamers!

for the cost, I always include it, can't believe it slipped my mind:headbutt:

It's only for brets though, not any of the inferior armies, but hey, I'm sure you guys can figure something out:laugh:


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

The thing about charging flamers is that if the daemons player sees you lining up that many units againts the Flamers... And doesn't notice what's going on... He needs bigger glasses.
"Charge them. "But they have 2 Str 5 attacks," you might whine. Yeah... but they're WS 2... "But they'll stand and shoot," is another thing people are worried about. Yeah... Once... It's better then them hitting you every turn with and average of 21 str 4 shots with a full unit of 6, a lot of times at -2. Even at BS 4 they're hitting on 5's.
If I wanted to be a real ass I could cast Portent of Far on them so they're re-rolling missed hits and wounds." -CTRL-C'd from my other post.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

Um, would magic missiles work? they dont roll to hit, negating the skirmishing bonus, and inflict horrendous damage on small units.


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

Dafistofmork said:


> Um, would magic missiles work? they dont roll to hit, negating the skirmishing bonus, and inflict horrendous damage on small units.


Another way to easily knock them off. I guess I forgot that. They have no magic resistance. The only thing is that most people seem to run mono - god lists. So the defendant in question would most likely have miltiple DD to deal with this threat.


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## Ragnar_Burmane (Dec 15, 2006)

From the Daemon army charge them with seekers with the siren banner. 20" charge with no stand and shoot possible.... They'll get annihilated on combat res and only hit back on 5's vs the seekers.

From High Elves Dragon Princes immediately spring to mind.

Vamps, raise units in front of them and ignore them, or chuck the coach at them. They're unlikey to do anything to it on the stand and shoot.

Generally anything with toughness 6 and a good save will have a chance of weathering the stand and shoot storm, apart from the treeman maybe.

There are some armies that would really struggle though I reckon


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