# Stormteks: A possible use



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I was looking over the Cryptek wargear, and noticed the highly awesome shooting attack that the Stormtek has with his Voltaic staff. S5 assault 4 haywire? Yes please.

Or, it would be a yes please, if the range wasn't a very diminutive 12".

So, how to overcome this intrinsic flaw? If you're 12 inches from something, it can assault you. This makes it pretty useless against transports. Any transport within 12 inches has already dropped off its cargo. And if it hasn't, whatever comes out will be within 12" when you destroy the vehicle. Both are no-gos, unless you have a unit set to assault the unit as it sits out in the open.

This can be done, but its not as easy to rig as you might think, with a 12" weapon.

So. Riddle time. Whats big, shiny, has a really powerful gun, and a low AV?

Everything your enemy puts behind his front lines.

And those are what you want to be hitting with your voltaic staff.

Now, you might be saying, "But thats impossible. Those guns on that fire prism/hammerhead/Leman Russ will completely wreck me before I can get close, and besides, there are huge blobs of aspect warriors/firewarriors/guardsmen between me and them! How will I ever get within 12 inches?"

You use a veil of darkness. Now, I know. "Silly Iron Angel. You can't put two Crypteks in the same unit! And veils are monumentally overpriced!"

Right on both accounts. But we have an HQ that has a VoD.

Thats right. Obyron. I keep finding more and more uses for this guy. He's nuts that way.

Attach the Stormtek to a unit of Lychguard with sword and board. Then also attach Obyron. Obyron is an IC but not an Overlord, which means the Stormtek is from Zandrekh's royal court (You did take Zandrekh, right?). 0 restrictions on attaching them both to the same unit.

The stormtek blasts the vehicle and will very likely stun/shake it. maybe even destroy a weapon or immobilize. You're after stunned results mainly, but shaken and immobilized will work as well. The lychguard ward off other infantry and help carve through them if they try to block you, as well as adding some meat to the unit to absorb punishment for your stormtek. Obyron gets a warscythe for dealing the killing blow to the vehicle. Its a wonderful synergy.

What you should do is aim to drop in 9" from the vehicle. This way, if you scatter, unless you roll horribly and scatter _straight at_ the vehicle 10+ inches, you will be fine, and probably able to get within 6" of the vehicle with moving. After you have moved up to the vehicle, let loose with the Stormtek to try to prevent it from moving. With 4 haywire attacks, it shouldn't be too hard, unless, once again, you roll horribly. Now, someone had the great sense to make a _haywire_ weapon _AP-_ so you have to suffer a -1 on the damage result chart. Against open topped vehicles this is irrelevant, but against others even a penetrating hit will have reduced efficacy. This is irrelevant, however, as you have 4 shots, and you'll probably pen with one of them. You might even just wreck it right off the bat if you roll well.

After you have shot, you can't assault, but thats not a horrible fate. You're in assault range, and if you aren't, you will be soon. With those shots, your target should be unable to escape, and easy prey. Your opponent's turn begins.

Because of the Lychguard, the unit is basically immovable. Anything that could kill them in an assault is probably way ahead of you on the front lines somewhere. Shooting them with high-AP weaponry is downright useless. Shooting them with low-AP weaponry is incredibly dangerous. This is one of the reasons you wanted to get within 6" of the target vehicle. If you get shot with a railgun or lascannon or something, and you pass your invuln save, bounce that shot right onto your target vehicle. You have a change to destroy an enemy's vehicle with a shot on your opponent's turn!

Once its your turn again, hit the target again with the staff for four more haywire shots. Once again, you might even wreck it right there. If you don't, give the unit Furious Charge with Zandrekh and charge the vehicle. Sword/board lychguard go up to S6, Obyron goes up to S8. The vehicle didn't move last turn due to all the haywire shooting, so everything is an automatic hit on rear AV.

Even a paltry 5 lychguard will get 15 S6 attacks. A more common number like 6 or 7 will see 18 and 21, respectively. AV10 and 11 will be completely screwed, and even AV12 is going to be sweating it with several glances. Obyron gets 3 S8 attacks that roll 2D6+S (Minimum roll 10, maximum roll holyshit20, average roll *15*) against vehicles. Any vehicle is going to be crunched. With all that haywire shooting, and the pile of glances (And maybe pens) stacking up, even heavier vehicles will come down. About the only thing this can't take out guarnateed is AV14 all around, and even then, the hail of Haywire shooting plus Obyron's massive damage is going to do a lot of damage to it, as Obyron will pen with 50% of his attacks.

Once the first vehicle is a smoldering ruin, if they have another, it will probably be close by. If you can walk within 12" of it, do so, and haywire it. If you can't, veil again and repeat the process.

Its a little pricey, but against fire prisms and hammerheads and doomsday arks and other unspeakably nasty long range shooting units, it will pay for itself easily. About the only real problem you are going to face is Tyranids, who, having no vehicles, will laugh right in the face of your stormtek before gobbling him up.

Arranging the unit properly is important. Never put Obyron or the Stormtek at the front of the unit. If the unit gets assaulted, anything in base contact with them can attack them. Obyron will probably be good... Unless the enemy has power weapons, in which case Obyron will be dead. But if you put him in the second rank, with nothing in base contact with him, he can still fight as he is engaged, but the enemy can't assign wounds to him as they aren't in base contact with him. Same for the veiltek. If you really, really want to, you can have him participate in the fight, despite being able to do about dick in CC, but keep him away from the front.

You might consider the lightning field to deter assaults if you have 10 points to spare and can't honestly think of anywhere else to spend them.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

I do like this combo alot and obyron plus if you add lightning field the obyron/Lychguard Combo gets even better to the point most non Dark-eldar Close combat units would actually stay away from you. The Stormtek is very underrated for what it can potentially bring to the table in vechile killing and CC buffing. but teleporting with Obyron is only 1 trick. I've used a maxed stormrtek in apocalypse with 5 shackle lords (700 Points later) and made every unit that charged me including abbadon regret it. people should really think about this guy. He's cheap even with lightning fields he costs next to nothing. Compare him to the Despair, Chrono and destruct Teks who cost a ton

but I must point out something According to the recent necron FAQ you can actually put 2 crypteks/Lords into the same unit assuming you have 2 overlords on the field. Yes Iron angel its a shocking revalation you can put 2 crypteks in the same unit and that in itself opens up many possiblilies tho admitantly you could only do it in 2000+ point games where you have that flexability. I have used the Stormtek before with a unit of 20 warriors, Despair tek and Shackle Phearon Overlord for tellporting madness. Vechiles, Troops even terminaters tremble at that and thanks to the lords combo of Scythe, Shackle Scarabs, Orb, Phearon, Phase Shifter and the Stormteks lightning field its a surprisingly resiliant unit that actually does well in combat. Infact I can almost say its the most resialant hoard unit I've ever done. I'm sure theres more but for the time being this combonation is devasting enough on it own to wreck hell but I will definatly have to try the Obyron one. Sounds to nasty to pass up


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Unfortunately those options are only viable after the 4000 point mark. I'd like to see you write a1500 point list...i'll give you a tip for those, if you have more than one lord or two crypteks, you've invested too much in your hq slot. It's way too expensive to give an overlord more than two pieces of wargear below 2000. The above tactic from Iron Angel, I might consider at 2000, 2500 more likely.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

This tactic's too expensive and unreliable to work. First of all, you're relying on killing backfield units. How often do you see a massively expensive unit designed to sit at the back of an army? Secondly, you're acting as if this in in a bit of a vacuum - it's highly unlikely that there'll be just one backfield unit, there's more likely to be two or three if any. Even 'assault' armies, like CSM and Wolves, have Obliterators and Long Fangs respectively. Thirdly, the combination you're taking is, to be frank, too expensive.

Plus, you say you avoid combat units. If I assault Zahndrek with my front-line units, your backfield-killers of great expense teleport back into your own lines. Again ureliability.

Cool concept, though.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Only Obyron teleports. He doesn't take his unit with him.

Obyron with 5 Lychguard and a Stormtek:

410.

Not that expensive. Note that I play 2000 point matches so I can put that kind of points in a unit like that to take out a couple fire prisms or hammerheads or vindicators.

Yes. They will likely shoot at you. I addressed this issue.



> Shooting them with high-AP weaponry is downright useless. Shooting them with low-AP weaponry is incredibly dangerous. This is one of the reasons you wanted to get within 6" of the target vehicle. If you get shot with a railgun or lascannon or something, and you pass your invuln save, bounce that shot right onto your target vehicle. You have a change to destroy an enemy's vehicle with a shot on your opponent's turn!


I have yet to playtest it, but on paper, it sounds good. Once I have playtested this idea, I'll confirm or scrap my theory in this thread.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

At 2000 points though don't you find Zandrekh and Obyron to be too pricey? Why not just take a regular Overlord and save on points? Sure, you're missing out on Furious Charge and occasionally Counter Attack, but it's not like you're using the extra hq slot from that pair.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok, snowmobile time, because it's easier for me.



Iron Angel said:


> This can be done, but its not as easy to rig as you might think, with a 12" weapon.
> 
> So. Riddle time. Whats big, shiny, has a really powerful gun, and a low AV?
> 
> ...


I maintain that this is too expensive, as although you're running a 2000pts list, an entire QUARTER of your army is used up on one unit that can kill one vehicle if it's in the backfield and it's unprotected and it has no damage mitigation and you don't deep strike and you don't miss, and then you die.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

1) As said above, double Cryptek is legal with 2 Courts.
2) 2 Courts is easy to have at most points levels, your Troops are crap and Elites mediocre.
3) As Midnight said, you need to reread the IC rules if you think Obyron can fight outside of B2B. 
4) I find it amusingly ironic that the 'low AV' things you listed in backfield are 12/12/10, 13/11/10 and 14/13/10 respectively...hardly low. :wink:


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

OK, he does need to be in base contact. You have me there. I misunderstood the rules for engaged units.

He's basically a Lychguard with better stats that can teleport and has an ever living roll. An invuln would be nice but he doesn't have one, and why are you getting into fights with CC specialists anyway? I2?

Anything in a mobile bunker is going to be kitted for shooting, not CC. I don't expect to see a land raider or something sitting it out full of assault terminators. I expect maybe long fangs at worst. And anything without power/force weapons or at least a huge flurry of attacks to just drown them in wounds that assaults into a unit of Lychguard with Obyron is kicked-in-the-head retarded. I expect that combat to last maybe until the end of my turn unless there are a lot of models. And with expensive things like long fangs, there won't be too many. You might say, well, with their stalling you, the vehicle could get away because no more haywire shots. I still accomplished the goal which was to kill the meaty bits.

Most people don't realize this, but I2 isn't a death sentence in close combat. Shock! People seem to think that just because you have I2, your entire unit is going to die horribly before they ever attack. If you're assaulting Necron Warriors with Terminators, sure. If you're assaulting Lychguard with Scout Marines, no. What other army in the game has almost everything at I2? Well, whatever that army is, it must be pure trash in CC right?

lolwate its Orks. NEVER MIND

MATH HAMMER

5 lychguard with Obyron, 10 marines. Marines are assaulting after shooting, lychguard have counter attack.

For shooting.

Shots:	20 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	13.333 
Wound Chance:	33.33% 
Wounds:	4.444 
Saved Wounds:	2.963 
Unsaved Wounds:	1.481 
Models Killed:	1.481

This killed model has a chance to stand up on a 5+.

Assaulting next.

Marines go first at I4, but suffer casualties from the lightning field, which kills one model. (.77 chance to kill.)

Attacker Group 1
Attacks:	18 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	9 
Wound Chance:	33.33% 
Wounds:	3 
Saved Wounds:	2 
Unsaved Wounds:	1 
Models Killed:	1

Lychguard's turn.

Lychguard
Attacks:	12 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	8 
Wound Chance:	66.67% 
Wounds:	5.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	5.333 
Models Killed:	5.333

Obyron
Attacks:	5 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	3.333 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	2.778 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.778 
Models Killed:	2.778

Cryptek
Attacks:	2 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	1 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	0.5 
Saved Wounds:	0.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.167 
Models Killed:	0.167


8.278 models killed in that assault. One is already dead from the lightning field. We can go on, and say that the sergeant has a power fist or something and you have cleverly kept him alive through wound allocation. Whoopdy do. He's lost by so much its irrelevant if he manages to do something.

So 9 and a quarter models dead, and now the last man, if there is one, has to regroup towards his table edge.

Through your unit.

Since they can't do that within six inches of your unit, well...



Elessar said:


> 4) I find it amusingly ironic that the 'low AV' things you listed in backfield are 12/12/*10*, 13/11/*10* and 14/13/*10* respectively...hardly low.


You'll be hitting AV10 in melee. Assaults hit rear armor.

10 is pretty low.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Can you post up a potential 2000 point list for this tactic? I'm curious to see what else you might take I addition to your super unit.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

THinking about it. Like I said, I haven't playtested it. Math hammer and speculation is great and all but won't say if it will actually work. I'll play a game with it maybe this week, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I'd like to suggest considering going the two Overlord two court route. You may not get Zandrekh's buffs or Obyron's counter blow, but for almost 100 points less you'll get an abyssal staff and mindshackle scarabs in the mix...and for near the same price you can add an invulnerable save and resorb that Obyron lacks.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Obyron: 160 points
-Warscythe
-Sempiternal Weave
-Cleaving Counterblow
-Veil of Darkness

To make the same thing with other stuff:
-Overlord
-Warscythe
-Sempiternal Weave
(Can't get cleaving counterblow)
-Despairtek
-Veil of Darkness

175 points

For what he does, Obyron is very, very cheap. Add in the Phase Shifter and the Res Orb and you're looking at a 250 point cost for two models. True, the despairtek gets a template weapon... _That literally does nothing to vehicles_. Since this unit is meant to hunt vehicles, its a little pointless since you have to assault the same unit you shoot at.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

When by themselves, yes. But after adding Zandrekh and the Lychguard, that's where the added cost comes in. I personally wouldn't bother adding a semp weave if i'm giving my lord a phase shifter, as that's the save he'll be using 80% of the time anyways. The template attack and extra fighter in cc sell it for me though, two models always beat one in my book.

Zandrekh
Obyron
Storm w/ lightning field
5x lychguard swords + board
605

Overlord 
Overlord w warscythe, phase shifter, resorb
Storm w/ lightning field
despair w/veil
5x lychguard swords + board
595
Edit- I thought the unit was also supposed to roflstomp the fleshy insides of the vehicle too?


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

but you'll never ever have just a vanilla Overlord like you have in that second list. At the very least it will have a Warscythe, which takes the cost to 605.

Chances are you will never actually need an invuln save on that overlord. Any shots that are AP3 or better can be shifted onto the lychguard. And if your enemy can put out so many AP3 shots at you that you can't absorb them all with the lychguard, something has gone wrong somewhere. Otherwise, the only other time he would need an invuln is CC with specialists with power weapons. And for reasons already expounded upon, you shouldn't have to worry about any of those.

Plus putting more models in that unit will gradually make its size a liability. Larger units are going to be harder to hide behind whatever vehicle you're attacking. Plus theres still the issue that the template weapon that the despairtek gets is literally useless against vehicles. It even says in its profile "does not affect vehicles". Since you have to assault the unit you shoot at it, its a waste.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

That's fair enough. Remove the phase shifter off the second Overlord and the cost drops to 550, because as you mentioned, I do of course have to dress my plain Overlord. I think what's happened here is we are at odds about what the unit should be doing. I'm trying to dress the unit to bust open transports and eat the insides, or beside that Long Fang unit and vaporize them. I concede to your point about Despair. Totally slipped my mind that he won't drop his template on an opened tank. Again, I think that's just us at odds about the unit's best use.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Agreed, for transport popping, thats probably better. But the vehicles you're likely to target in this way aren't transports.

I usually just leave transports alone. If I use Lychguard against transports, its as gap filler between my shooting squads. With 4, or even the bog-standard 2, destructeks, I can take down transports with ease. From there, the squishies inside are hoofing it. I can simply blow them to pieces as they get near, and whatever vestiges actually get within assault range I just assault with the lychguard before they can. They have to hold back further than 12" to avoid the lychguard, which means getting shot to death, or they have to come closer to prep for an assault, which means getting assaulted by lychguard.

You have to force your opponent into a set of choices where every outcome is a loss of some kind. My tactic won't work against transports, because once you break it open, you leave yourself open to getting assaulted, and you don't generally ever want to let an opponent assault you.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> He's basically a Lychguard with better stats that can teleport and has an ever living roll. An invuln would be nice but he doesn't have one, and why are you getting into fights with CC specialists anyway? I2? Maybe because otherwise you're paying a lot of points for a Warscythe and Cleaving Counterblow and WS5 for absolutely no benefit
> 
> Anything in a mobile bunker is going to be kitted for shooting, not CC. I don't expect to see a land raider or something sitting it out full of assault terminators. I expect maybe long fangs at worst. Who will fill you full of Missiles, or just run off as soon as you kill their Rhino. And anything without power/force weapons or at least a huge flurry of attacks to just drown them in wounds that assaults into a unit of Lychguard with Obyron is kicked-in-the-head retarded. So you shoot them instead. No big deal. I expect that combat to last maybe until the end of my turn unless there are a lot of models. As you said, who the hell is going to assault you instead of running off? And with expensive things like long fangs, there won't be too many. You might say, well, with their stalling you, the vehicle could get away Well, no, because unless it's dead the guys won't have popped out to assault you yet. That defies logic. because no more haywire shots. I still accomplished the goal which was to kill the meaty bits. Who cost all of 150pts
> 
> ...


I don't get it. Who's playing Long Fangs that get out of their Rhinos and charge at Lychguard units with Obyron? Because I want to slap him across the face, hard.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

So basically your entire argument consists of "Well they won't assault".

OK.

They run away.

Straight at my gunline.

Works for me.

This assumes the transport didn't move before I shot it, which, if it did, that squad is going nowhere.


Obyron isn't meant to be a brick. If you look at how he's built, you'll realize he was never meant to pummel CC specialists. He was meant to leap straight into squads that are normally invulnerable to assaults due to either excellent range control with weapons or because they get stuck behind everything else to protect them, IE, things that aren't very good in CC. If you teleport him behind them, he's suddenly generating massive amounts of threat to that unit. Even if it just runs away, where is it going to go? Right at your gunline? I say, go for it Long Fangs/Firewarriors/Fire Dragons. Unless they can shoot you with something AP2 or better, Obyron is going to laugh. And if they DO shoot you with AP2 or better, put that wound on one of his sword and board lychguard _which I know you took because its a really good idea_. Either they stand their ground and get turned to steak, or they run away and risk getting shot to death by my 24" death zone.

Now, its true, the unit will draw a lot of fire. Cover is important here, as are good armor saves. but if I can get my opponent to direct 1000 points of shooting at a 600 point unit, just to have my unit not die and actually shoot their own shots back at them if they are high enough AP, thats wonderful.

Due to the likelihood of a shaken result, they probably can't shoot you from the transport either. So once again, they stick it out and get crunched or they bite the smaller of two bullets. Either way, I win. One question though occurs to me, and that is whether or not the squad can fire heavy weapons after disembarking from a transport that moved.

The logic that "Lychguard are expensive, ergo, they can't make their points back in a single turn, ergo, they are bad" is flawed. Its like saying paladins and Draigo are bad because they are expensive. Go tell that to a GK player and watch as that unit mops the floor with your entire army. They are force multipliers. You are relying not only on their smashiness but the fear the generate that makes stuff run away from them/spend a huge amount of shooting to kill them. They don't have a really effective tactic to use, because the one thing that could really easily kill them is going to have a hard time doing so, whether it be CC units because they can't get to you in time, or high-powered shooters because they can't see you behind their own vehicle. Positioning is important. Target denial goes a long way, and thats one thing that benefits lychguard and their usualy small unit size- A small unit is easier to stuff behind cover than a huge one.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> So basically your entire argument consists of "Well they won't assault".
> 
> OK.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand what you mean by 'They don't have an effective tactic to use'. Do you mean the Deathstar unit itself, or the opponent? I agree with you if it's the Deathstar unit - it can multi-assault as many enemies as possible. That's about it, really, because otherwise you're never going to impact the game that much.

I'm not inherently saying that Lychguard are a bad choice, or that small units aren't good. I'm saying that taking a small, very expensive, unreliable unit that costs a HQ slot, a Court slot and an Elites slot is not very wise.

If you're aiming to kill backfield infantry, you don't need Obyron and a Stormtek and a bunch of Infantry dudes. If you're aiming to blow up backfield tanks, why not take the much, much cheaper Doom Scythe?

Midnight

EDIT: VT2 puts it more concisely than I do (whether you like him or not): 

'It's not like the original deathstar got beaten when realization struck that it can only be in one place at any given time, it's a massive target, can only attack so often, and small, compact, mobile units will hand it its ass on a platter. No, sir, such a thing surely never happened, and branding superkilly, expensive units 'deathstars' was a very smart and fitting thing to do.

While the nobz above annihilate everything they touch, they can't be everywhere at once. The squad can only shoot one target, and when it manages to pull off a combo-charge, it's more often than not against a bunch of cheap, expendable rhinos, stubborn, expendable infantry, or units equally as killy as themselves.'


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Paladins and Draigo ARE bad, they're AWFUL in fact.

Orks ARE shit in combat, because they're Fearless. If they don't charge, they get swept in 2 rounds by any competent melee unit.

More on Paladins - you 'run away' from them because they have a small threat range and can be outmaneuvered easily and then ignored. If they're a small unit, as you suggest for Lychguard, then you don't run, you Melta them. Big units of Lychguard, in contrast, don't exist, and IIRC LG don't have 2W each, and sure don't have FnP, so you torrent them, like ANY 'scary' unit. 

Regarding AV10 Rears - you can't shoot my Rear armour, cos I'm not an idiot, and I won't be stationary when you get the chance to actually charge me...plus of course Rear AV10 is NOT low, since 99% of vehicles have it.

An Overlord that doesn't have a CCB and Warscythe is wasted, which is why Zandrekh is ALWAYS a bad choice - and any HQ slot that doesn't get you a CCB is a waste too.

Your failure to understand that Orks/Draigo/Paladins/CC units in general are bad, coupled with lack of basic rules knowledge exhibited*, makes me believe that this tactic will work fine for you against your regular opponent, but for those of us with solid opponents, we'll stick to objectively good strategies thanks.


* - The ICs not in B2B thing is pretty basic, but I gave you a bye until you asked whether or not units could fire heavy weapons in a turn they moved...

PS - Even if an opponent DOES fire over 1000 points at your unit (and presumably kills them, in the real world) they've lost nothing, and the main Lychpin [pun intended] of your force has been destroyed, freeing them up to focus on what else you've managed to shoehorn into an army already hamstrung by scaling costs and diminishing returns on investment...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You put it nicely, TKE, thank you.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

>Fire Prisms

>Expendable

We can go back and forth on this all day about why its good or bad. Until I playtest it, the ball is in the air, however.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

By all mean, get back to us on how it goes. I'm doubtful, but I've been wrong before.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Paladins and Draigo ARE bad, they're AWFUL in fact.
> 
> Orks ARE shit in combat, because they're Fearless. If they don't charge, they get swept in 2 rounds by any competent melee unit.
> 
> ...


Alright, I'm not posting any more until I actually try it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I said no such things 'bout Long Fangs.
99% of models in TWO of SIXTEEN armies is not the same as 99% of vehicles in the ENTIRE GAME.
If you can't understand that 4 Haywire shots is unlikely to prevent me moving away, I don't know how to explain probability to you in a way I know you'll get. If you don't understand why you'll be hitting me on 6s (ie, not much, if at all) are you even to reach my vehicle in CC next turn, then I'm stunned. 

If you don't understand that this ploy needs to wait until mid-game or so to be effective, when the gap between frontline enemy forces and backfield has become enough they can't simply dog-pile your teleporters, by which time the enemy will potentially have crippled the rest or whittled your Lychpin down...*mouth agape*

As for CCBs - they LOVE Gunlines, because they can shred two vehicles a turn, and hide behind their burning Wrecks. Overextension? Getting cut off? They are solo elements, but more importantly they are FAST SKIMMERS immune to the first 2 Immob results...the only way for the enemy to stop them is to kill them outright. That requires a significant application of forces, or a couple Meltas...but if you end your move in easy Melta range you deserve what you get and should learn from your mistakes.

As for 'drawing massive aggro' ?? This isn't WoW or Skyrim here buddy. If the enemy is shooting at your expendable units (ie, everything that isn't a Troops choice) then GREAT! You're probably winning! :chuffed:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> I said no such things 'bout Long Fangs.
> 99% of models in TWO of SIXTEEN armies is not the same as 99% of vehicles in the ENTIRE GAME.
> If you can't understand that 4 Haywire shots is unlikely to prevent me moving away, I don't know how to explain probability to you in a way I know you'll get. Much as I'm on your side, TKE, I think that Haywire is roll to hit on 3s, and then glances on 2-5, pen on a 6. That's pretty reliable shutting down of enemy armour, it's just got 12" range in an army that doesn't like close combat If you don't understand why you'll be hitting me on 6s (ie, not much, if at all) are you even to reach my vehicle in CC next turn, then *I'm stunned.* That's why he's hitting you automatically
> 
> ...


And words.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Alright, the verdict is in.

How did the tactic perform?

Worse than I'd hoped, better than I'd feared.

I played a SW player who took two Rhinos of long fangs and a bunch of other more smashy stuff in rhinos, as well as two predators with bolters and autocannons. The game was 2k. I took Obyron, 5 LG, stormtek, as well as a couple units of immortals and warriors backed up by a DArk and an Annihilation Barge. I also took Imotekh to test if the night fighting would help the tactic at all. I went first.

It sort of did, but only because it prevented the unit from getting shot in the first two turns. Once the transports had tried to come around my sides on turn 2 thats when I teleported behind a LF rhino at the top of turn 3. We were using foresty-type terrain with some walls, and I selected a relatively open space near one, landed 5 inches away from it, and shot it. I will concede that that one is chalked up to luck.

It hadn't moved, so I got all four shots right through. One pen and three glances. It wasn't going anywhere.

This is where a whole lot of shit happened I didn't expect.

His turn rolls around, and he's stunned. He can't leave the rhino there helpless with his chewies inside. He's too far extended to turn around and come back. The only thing he has in the area are the other rhino of long fangs, and one of the two predators can also hit the unit.

With a tank shock.

I move out of the way successfully, towards his rhino, but the goal was actually to maneuver me into the open. The other rhino now has a clear shot. It was a desperate move that didn't pay off for him unfortunately. The rhino moved at cruising speed, so they couldn't fire, which is irrelevant since none of its weapons really posed a threat. It was just supposed to suppress any gauss from getting close enough to shoot, he said.

The long fangs open up, and kill two lychguard. One stands back up.

My turn again and this is where it got interesting. Though the unexpected tank shock did some damage to me by forcing movement, it didn't do much else. I moved back into cover, and shot the rhino again with haywire, but this time I damaged it to death and the contents piled out from the wreck. Suddenly I realized assaulting the vehicle is a waste. I assaulted the unit with my lychguard and killed them all. I was open to a second turn of shooting, which he gladly took, after moving at combat speed in the other direction. He opened fire with the predator too and got three wounds through, all of which I saved. The long fangs shot again, one lychguard down, it stands back up.

The rhino moved sideways to avoid the lychguard which was really irrelevant.

I shot the predator with the haywire next turn and charged that too, then blew it up with massed S5/S7 power weapon/warscythe attacks.

My annihilation barges had been dealing with his front lines with medium success, and he couldn't get near my 24" threat range now that his long range guns were no longer there to shoot me to death. By the time night fighting ended at the beginning of turn 5 I had already haywired the other rhino too and he had to turn his other predator around to try to deal with the unit.

He fired with his long fangs a total of twice. He killed two lychguard. He still won by rushing the objectives, but the strategy works to an extent, if awkwardly. It relies a lot on surprise and forcing your opponent to make one of two bad decisions, so it might not work in every single game you play against the same opponent. Some good rolls against his long fangs helped too but even if he had killed one or two more lychguard I seriously doubt the result would have been drastically different.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Alright, the verdict is in.
> 
> How did the tactic perform?
> 
> ...


He just sat there and didn't run away from the respectable close combat unit that would rip his vehicles a new rear hatch if they hit him? He just drove TOWARDS you? I don't get it.

Midnight


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Paladins and Draigo ARE bad, they're AWFUL in fact.
> 
> Orks ARE shit in combat, because they're Fearless. If they don't charge, they get swept in 2 rounds by any competent melee unit.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree with you paladins are bad and infact I would go as far as to say that most non CC units thats aren't massed or part of a larger Army are horrible as well unless it can move 12 or teleport there cutting the distance (Something crons do easily as well as terminators). Any smart player will simply ignore the fear factor and just hit them from long range before charging on the 1 or 2 that remain but then again not everyone is smart, its the same reason why you can sometimes shoot the rear armour of a vechile and you forget that thanks to guass its easy to imobilise a vechile. If someone gives me an oppurtunity I exploit it

But I cant believe you said Zandrekh is a bad choice because he's a foot-slogger. Its kind of foolish completly ruling him and foot-slog lords out because there not sweep attacking, Does that imply you feel that imotek is a bad lord or Trayzyn who is godly with Lychguard and a veiltek is bad as well. While I haven't actually fielded Zahndrek personally I have seen him used enough to make an opinion. Have you seen what he can make wraiths and Annihilation barge's do when given tank hunters on the field its nasty, How about actually making flayed ones useful with furious charge or making lychguard better, What about that cryptek squad in the building getting bombarded by lemun russ tanks give them stealth to protect them or tank hunters to shoot back. Your warrior squad doomed to get charged give them Counter-attack. 

There's lots of stuff zahndrek can do, yes you lose the warscythe, Phearon and CCB but thats why the army has scarabs, wraiths and Guass. All of which help take care of that pesky land raider. Plus theres always fielding obyron, a destroyer lord or a 2nd lord on a Barge if you must take a Warscythe and Barge. Tho I never run a single command barge in my army not 1 I hate them and I find them to fragile, I'd rather use the points on more warriors, wraiths, field a 2nd annihilation barge or a phase shifter and since I use alot of teleporting and deep-striking I dont miss the lost speed. In most armies I use Imotek and a Overlord with Warscythe, Phearon, Shackle, Scarabs, Orb and Phase Shifter at the front of 20 warriors and a veil-tek who go around Rapid-firing everything to death and any unit thats not a dedicated CC Unit gets screwed over by the overlord and the sheer numbers present. It works and it works well its cheap.

But on topic, the Lychguard, Storm-tek, obyron combo while expensive can work if you get it to the front quick enough, Its the same reason why terminators work even tho they have to wait, while it doesn't have the utility of my 20 relentless, teleporting warriors of doom in close combat the lychguard and Storm-tek will excel, those orks will get fired, Draigo will suffer and even Dark Eldar and nids would have trouble coping with the Combo as long as you use 10 of them with a res Orb or Obyron, give them tank hunters or furious charge with Zahndrek and your talking walking gold, it however it would be dearly expensive. I wouldn't use it in lists that were 2000 or less and since I use massed warrior Hoards I dont think I will but I would not write it off just because its a foot-slog or a 1 turn wait, just like I wouldn't write off a foot-slog lord because he's not on a barge...


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, he knew the predator was lost. Unless he moved it backfield 12 inches and basically disabled it for the rest of the game. He figured it was lost either way so try to kill with some shooting.

He couldn't really come back. His hope was not to save the Long Fangs but to sort of bulldoze my troops and deny objectives, which worked. As I said, I actually lost because he had his home objective and was contesting mine. All in all, the tactic did what it was supposed to do, but I still lost. One of the major pitfalls of the tactic is that it creates a hammer and anvil effect but the hammer is made of iron and the anvil is made of tissue paper. Next time, instead of taking a doomsday ark which didn't do much of anything the whole game, since it kept scattering and failing to damage his closer rhinos, I'll take some Spyders to ward off his assault units and keep his rhinos beyond my 12" danger zone.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Alright, the verdict is in.
> 
> How did the tactic perform?
> 
> ...


I deleted the rest of the quote, because your opponent using FOUR Heavy Support choices tells me all I need to know.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Well, he knew the predator was lost. Unless he moved it backfield 12 inches and basically disabled it for the rest of the game. He figured it was lost either way so try to kill with some shooting. What? You don't get to go backwards or forwards, you can go left and right too
> 
> He couldn't really come back Except, you know winning the game, like he did. His hope was not to save the Long Fangs but to sort of bulldoze my troops and deny objectives, which worked. As I said, I actually lost because he had his home objective and was contesting mine. All in all, the tactic did what it was supposed to do, but I still lost. One of the major pitfalls of the tactic is that it creates a hammer and anvil effect but the hammer is made of iron and the anvil is made of tissue paper Reinforcing my previous point that the unit takes up two many points of the army. Next time, instead of taking a doomsday ark which didn't do much of anything the whole game, since it kept scattering and failing to damage his closer rhinos, I'll take some Spyders to ward off his assault units and keep his rhinos beyond my 12" danger zone. Sorry, so his units were within 12" of yours and not out of their transports yet? I'm not surprised he won, if Space Wolves


Instead of Spyders, I'd replace the massively expensive Obyron/Lychguard with a couple Doom Scythes, which will do similar or more damage for cheaper.

Midnight

EDIT: TKE :goodpost:


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

We both agreed it was a friendly game. I said I wanted to test a unit designed to take out backfield. he said he wanted an extra heavy slot to compensate. I let him. How is that relevant? Why do you think his preds were so light? Points.

Left and right wouldn't have gotten it out of the range of the lychguard with a 6" move and a 6" charge. By backfield I generally mean not a straight line back towards his table edge but in a direction moving in that general way. Either he moves to avoid assault from a unit only a couple inches away from him by stretching his move as far as he can away or he gets assaulted anyway. He decided simply shoot and sacrifice it.

I meant physically come back, with the other units. I suppose he could have but it would have taken away fromt he force he was pressing on me with, which might have cost him the contesting status later on.

My point is he won't be able to move within 12 inches with anything. Not just the rhinos. I lost a lot of guys to assaults, more than I did to shooting.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It means you were facing an incompenent opponent, and thus any tactic could have been effective. All units and characters have weaknesses, and you can exploit those without needing to bend the rules. If you can't, you can't play the game well.

Midnight

EDIT: If I said that I was planning to try out a new list with two Daemon Princes and my friend said 'Ok, as long as I get a fourth Elite slot to use another squad of Deathmarks', I'd turn him down. Not only is it list-tailoring (although that's something you're OK with, so I guess that argument doesn't hold water), it's also explicitly abusing the rules in your favour.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I will agree that a single playtest is never enough to test a tactic. But it worked well enough this time.

Besides, I don't think either of us were really trying. As I said, it was a firendly game.

Well, maybe I was trying.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

So the strategy sucks, if you were trying to win against a player that was simply cruising along, not really paying attention, and you still lost.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

A unit only needs to move over 6" to be hit on 6s next turn in CC. Also, if you were over 4" away, he should be able to avoid you moving laterally, providing there are no intervening units or terrain features.

Giving him an extra slot makes your 'test' meaningless, as it was no longer under 'real world' conditions.

Furthermore, the only Heavy Support option worth a dime in C:SW is Long Fangs, if he chooses the piss poor Dakka Pred for his army then he's not exactly at the same level as my opponents.

Wolves are good in every slot, that's why they're strong - he hadn't filed his FoC, so he has no excuse for feeling that he needs an extra HS.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Alright, calm down everyone. I chose to play friendly in case the strategy sucked majorly and it blew up in my face. I'd rather that happen in a friendly game.

And really, he just wanted another predator. He didn't have enough long fangs to make three units of them. Seeing as it was a dakka pred, I wasn't too worried.

List tailoring is if I told him I was taking a backfield unit to neutralize backfield threats, and he took something deliberately meant to destroy that unit. Taking a dakka pred isn't really list tailoring.

Also, our group, unless we are specifically saying we are playing competitively, will allow things like an extra slot for something stupid (I'll have a hard time convincing them to let me take four annihilation barges, but if it was something middling sure).

If I can tweak the list to make holding my own objective and getting a second one easier, I'll try the trick out in a more competitive setting. Just like you don't test an experimental weapon by handing it to a soldier and telling him to use it in a battle, you don't test a new unit in a fiercely competitive game. At least, I don't. Not at first.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about weapons testing that I haven't learned from Metal Gear - but in my book, testing is only relevant if done under the conditions in which it matters.

If you routinely muddle the FoC and such, then you simply aren't playing the game the majority of us play, and so what works for you is, in the nicest possible way, irrelevant to the majority of players - and potentially harmful to new players reading your suggestions without background info that you play a different game to them.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I will agree with you. I never said "This is conclusive proof. SUCK IT HATERS". I tested in a soft environment to get a handle on what I should _really_ be doing with the unit, the flaws of the list, so forth. Basically, if it fails in a friendly environment with FOC modified and such it's most certainly going to fail in a more competitive environment. If it excels in a friendly environment, I can see that it has no glaring flaws, and take it up to competitive play. Thats where the fine tuning comes in. If I take it straight to the top level and it gets wrecked, it will get mangled so horribly I won't have any idea how it specifically failed or on what level I should try to salvage or reinforce the list at. Was my line weak? Did I not take advantage of cover? Does the plan flat suck? If I'm tabled by turn 3 it will be too hard to identify all these variables. So start small, work up. From this match I learned that dedicating my CC to his backfield leaves me very vulnerable to assaults and pushes. He won't need that long range firepower if he can just walk over me. So I need to reinforce my position so I can have something left alive to claim objectives.

Now, when I do that, I will try the list again. If it succeeds at that point, I move on to more intensive testing. There, I will find out if it really works, and if not, what its more detailed flaws are.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> And really, he just wanted another predator. He didn't have enough long fangs to make three units of them. Seeing as it was a dakka pred, I wasn't too worried. You, sir, have balls on the level of Imperial Guardsmen if something that puts out 8 Strength 5-7 shots that ignore Necron Warrior's armour and has a 36" range doesn't worry you.
> 
> List tailoring is if I told him I was taking a backfield unit to neutralize backfield threats, and he took something deliberately meant to destroy that unit. Taking a dakka pred isn't really list tailoring. It's taking more units to compensate specifically for a unit in your list.
> 
> ...


The problem here is defining competitive. If I take a squad of Possessed, Lucius the Eternal, and 9 Obliterators (obviously with troops and shizz), am I playing competitively or uncompetitively? At what level of optimization does a list become competitive?

Anyway, playing in a game that isn't even abiding by the rules of the game means that the 'playtest' is meaningless. To continue your soldier analogy, do you give a soldier an experimental weapon and then order him to go to the gym? No, you do something that's related to the weapon itself, in as real a situation as you can.

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The only modification to the game was he took a dakka pred. Its not like I let him take Fire Warriors and Hammerheads, and field an army comprised completely of vehicles with no infantry or HQs. It wasn't a drastically different game.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Basically, if it fails in a friendly environment with FOC modified and such it's most certainly going to fail in a more competitive environment. Not necessarily. If it fails in a game in which your opponent has been allowed more tanks than usual, it doesn't work in a game with higher tank allowances. But in a game with a maximum of three tanks? Well, you have to try that too. Two tanks, one infantry? Try that. One tank two infantry? Try it. No tanks? Try it. This goes on and on until you get something viable. I've been rolling with a Daemon Prince for over a year and I still don't have the perfect loadout yet. If it excels in a friendly environment, I can see that it has no glaring flaws, and take it up to competitive play. Thats where the fine tuning comes in You should fine-tune in friendly games, or you're going into the tournament at a disadvantage.. If I take it straight to the top level and it gets wrecked, it will get mangled so horribly I won't have any idea how it specifically failed or on what level I should try to salvage or reinforce the list at. Was my line weak? Did I not take advantage of cover? Does the plan flat suck? If I'm tabled by turn 3 it will be too hard to identify all these variables. So start small, work up. From this match I learned that dedicating my CC to his backfield leaves me very vulnerable to assaults and pushes. He won't need that long range firepower if he can just walk over me. So I need to reinforce my position so I can have something left alive to claim objectives.
> 
> Now, when I do that, I will try the list again. If it succeeds at that point, I move on to more intensive testing. There, I will find out if it really works, and if not, what its more detailed flaws are. That's just playtesting, not 'fine-tuning'. You can't playtest something on the basis of one game, or I'd rate Chaos Dreads as the best thing in the codex and Lash of Submission as the best thing since sliced bread.


You need to playtest it in actual, valid conditions. It's like playing a game of Planetstrike with Daemons - they'll do a hell of a lot better than they would in any normal game, but only because they have unusually favourable conditions in which to fight. As such, you can't get a good idea of what units are capable of. Equally, you can't playtest Flesh Hounds against Grey Knights only or you'll come out saying that they're the best unit ever created. You see the point I'm making?

Midnight


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Agreed. Once I add some hardness to the main force, I'll certainly take it into a more rigid match. And, as I have said, more than one. My testing process tends to be a little slow but I feel that if you test something once or twice and thats all you don't know if you just managed to get a fluke or not.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

...

I think that we think exactly the same thing and are merely arguing over who's right about it.

Midnight


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