# Chaos Special Units



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sell one of them to me. 
All opinions are welcome, it's pretty safe to say no matter what you say I probably haven't heard it.

The current highest bidder is straight ogres, with the ability to take a mark, and at nearly half the cost of dragon ogres you get something that moves an inch slower, lower ws(3 ugh), lose an attack, and lose a wound. Plus the models look a little better.
Plus I can score ten of them for 380 points(upgrades) that's thirty wounds at 12.6 points per models. Sure marauders make better bulk troops, but these dudes have s5 3 attacks and a base 5+ save. They sound like the best bang for my buck. And with the option for chaos armor(Really expensive though) they can stand up to volleys of fire. I can't think of these guys as anything but lazy though in comparison to elites of other armies(Maybe squads of five aren't the best...)

Trolls I'm kind of iffy about, with the amount of fire mages my FLGS brings these guys could get shit all over, plus with the stupidity and loss of the will of chaos it's rough. Arguably the best models in the range of ugly metal models(UMMs) Still viable though, correct? Thoughts? I'd love to hear more. I know they can be taken as core(Who would with warriors though) with the troll king, so some day I might try that list.

Dragon ogres. Everybody loves them, everybody takes them, but are they worth costing five points left then double a standard ogre? The extra movement is nice but to volleys of s4 shots they suck incoming fire pretty harsh and they are out-and-out the single worst models in the range. And are you ready? I'm predicting this shit. Soon as I buy a model they'll get redone. No joke. But yeah m7 and they're monstrous cavalry so they roll 3d6 to charge? yes/no? I'm still relatively new and fucking up a handful of the rules here.

But if you all wouldn't mind giving me your opinions about why any of these tops the other. I love the idea of having a bunch of big stupid monsters to tromp around but which big stupid monster?


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

my personal favorite Chaos specail unit is the Daemon prince, he has 4 wounds 7 Weapon skill BS 5 S 6 and 4 attacks, oh and +3 armor save, ph did I also mention he can fly and immune to instant death?
I dont know what his stats are in fantasy tho, but I imagine they are simaller.


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

a guy in our local sometimes runs chosen with 2x hand weapons, MoT and 2 warshrines behind them, with certain wargear and such you have a reasonably high chance of getting a 3+ ward save along with T5.

Combine that with a sorc with lore of fire cast flaming sword of rhuin and thats +1 to wound, magical attacks AND flaming to prevent stuff from regenerating .


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Actually I think Chaos Ogres are the worst of the bunch (okay, okay. They are definitely better than forsaken and often more useful than the chariot). And yes they are considerably cheaper than the other guys, but that's before you upgrade them. For several reasons:
1. They are T4 and only have heavy armour. Sure, it's more than the OK ogres, but they also don't have bullcharge and they aren't core. And giving them chaos armour, while decent, costs alot. Whereas troll have regeneration (which is better 80% of the time) and Drogres begin with that lovely 4+ save and they have an extra wound.
2. They have a shoddy initiative. So give them great weapons. That way, you also negate the lame WS by ensuring what gets hit, stays hit. But guess what? Now they cost the same as trolls, but are still easier to kill and only have one more strenght.
3. Unlike trolls (due to stupidity), ogres aren't ITP and a LD of 7 isn't impressive. So they should at least have MoS. But MoK is sexy too because it makes those GW wielding psychos much more dangerous. But guess what? They are now almost as expensive as drogres. 

To sum it up: Ogres are cool and can be pretty decent. But then they cost a bunch and aren't that impressive compared to a the other special choices.

Trolls on the other hand are possibly my favorite. Heres why:
1. They can't be upgraded. That's right, thats a bonus. You never end up being tempted to overcompensate for their shortcomings by upgrading them like crazy because you can't.
2. Mutant regeneration. N ot only does this make them almost more survivable than the dreaded drogres, it also randomly hands out boons to your units when you get lucky. There are few things more annoying than shooting alotta holes in a unit only to have them save half and suddenly gain +1 toughness or attack.
3. Troll Vomit, strength 5 attacks and being ITP. They are, before you give them GWs, just as strong as drogres and are superb and smashing heavily armoured units. Mmmmhh...autohitting s5 attacks that ignore armour. Love it.
4. Throgg. Yep, the king of trolls is awesome. Making trolls core is really useful (leaves more points for knights, drogres and chosen) and he gives them LD8 as long as he is alive. Not to mention how hardcore he is in CC. He'll turn Grimgor Ironhide into a steaming pile of puke in a challenge.
5. Stupidity is a bitch, but with the new rules for Inspiring Presence and BSBs it's easier to mitigate than ever before. And don't forget Throgg. There really is no excuse not to take him when using trolls.
Now, if only they had an initiative of more than 1....

Finally we have the drogres. They are pretty awesome too, but they are obviously expensive as fuck.
M7, 4W, WS4 and that lovely 4+ save is lovely. It's a shame you can't mark them, but then you can give them an AHW _and_ a GW. Multitasking ftw! Going against knights or something equally tough. A couple of s7 hits should solve that problem. Need to stop some small dudes good? Just grab an extra attack and you will be fine.
But what really makes drogres cool is all those weakling skaven generals lurking in every FLGS who needs a good pounding. The drogres immunity to their lame zapguns is just golden.

There you have it. If you need some feedback on some of the other units just ask. We have a lot of very experienced WoC players here on heresy, so whatever the question, someone _will_ have the answer.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I played a bit of chaos warriors in the past, and I find that the only special units worth taking are Chaos Ogres and Chosen.

I like Chaos Ogres with heavy armor and great weapons. I usually don't bother with a mark, but Khorne is good if you want one. I don't like trolls because stupidity has bit me in the ass too many times. Keeping them within range of the general and/or bsb is easy at first, but when units enter close combat and begin to move apart (whether they want to or not) they don't do so well.

I also like using one unit of chosen. I don't use more than one because I give their champion the favour of the gods magic item, allowing them to manipulate the result they get from the eye of gods chart. I usually run them with mark of tzeentch and shields, using the eye of gods result that makes them the most resilient.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I find trolls to be somewhat annoying as there is just enough flaming stuff to kill the regen and their low LD makes leadership checks an issue unless they stick close to the general (and the BSB to re-roll) or one can have special characters such as Throgg with them and the BSB nearby. That being said, if they are close to a unit of chaos knights with a BSB and general then they can be very effective in a supporting role run up to 6 to 8 in a unit. They can't have great weapons even with initiative 1, can't have a mark, and are vulnerable to any flaming wounds. By contrast, a chaos ogre gets heavyarmour and a great weapon for the same price as a troll and is better with chaos armour and a mark and a musician in the unit than a unit of trolls. For those reasons, I'm just not seeing warriors armies running trolls often unless a monstrous infantry themed army with throgg being legal as a special character, and warriors are becoming one of the most common armies run at the tournies in 8th edition. 

Dragon Ogres were clearly better than chaos ogres in 7th edition due to the +1M giving them a substantial flee and pursuit advantage but, now, the tables are turned due to points cost efficiency and the ability to get up to 3 supporting attacks and step up to fight in 8th edition for monstrous infantry. Pay for the chaos armour, great weapons, and Mark of Khorne and Ogres have substantially better attacks and wounds per point cost relative to the Dragon Ogres and cost sufficiently less such that one can rank them up and benefit from supporting attacks and ranks in combat. The ability to give them Mark of Khorne is huge relative to Dragon Ogres. Dragon Ogres have +1M, +1WS, +1S, +1W and +1LD but cost so much that they are generally too expensive to feasibly rank up (maybe six in two ranks of three is the most one could afford) and don't benefit most of the time from running more than four wide (four means a panic check if one dies due to 25% rule). By contrast, run 6 to 8 ogres in a 3 or 4 wide by 2 deep unit with MoK and they will more reliable get into combat (not panic, not fear test for terror until the MoK is lost) and get far more "effective" attacks than the dragon ogres will. Dragon Ogres also cannot have a musician (important for free reforms and allows chaos ogres to rally at the same LD as dragon ogres). 

As for the comments regarding ogre kingdom ogres, the standard core ogre costs the same as the base chaos ogre but has no armour at all and only has a bull charge bonus and an ogre club (-1 to AS). The upgrades (with points costs) only add light armour and an additional hand weapon or an ironfist (option of either using as AHW or shield). They get no chaos mark and no great weapon option. Ogre kingdom bulls are either priced equivalently or more expensive relative to chaos ogres for what they do, depending on the situation. Ogre bulls definitely die faster when faced with normal shooting, when hit by normal magic missiles and direct damage spells, and when in combat with standard infantry units relative to chaos ogres and panic more easily (due to no will of chaos). 

Compare six dragon ogres with 8 chaos ogres with chaos armour, MoK and a musician, at about the same points costs. Dragon Ogres can panic and run from magic and shooting but chaos ogres will not. The DO unit has 24 wounds and 18 potential attacks per round, while the chaos ogres will have 28 attacks (at least in round one with MoK) and also have 24 wounds. 24 or 28 attacks at WS3 instead of WS4 and S6 with GWs instead of S7 for DO with GWs and with the same number of wounds, toughness and armour save for about the same points cost is a huge difference in favour of the ogres unless facing something with WS7 or greater and/or T5 or greater and with an AS of 3+, 2+ or 1+. The only drawback of MoK is the LD test to avoid charging. That being said. A chaos ogre unit is situational. It is typically run within range of the BSB and/or general at least initially and often best run with a mid-sized unit of chaos knights. Otherwise, look at running chosen or a larger unit of chaos knights with one or two war shrines as the best Special option.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Anyone notice the maker of this thread has been recently banned? weird.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Anyone notice the maker of this thread has been recently banned? weird.


whoa your right how did that happen?

in anycase l say the best is chosen with two warshine and favour of the gods on them, you can always get 3 + ward and T5 making you able to take on anything.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Anyone notice the maker of this thread has been recently banned? weird.


He keeps getting a two week ban for "Trolling"
I think he's been banned by almost every mod.

THIS TIME he got banned(By The Wraithlord, send fanmail there)for calling Katie Drake a "Silly goose". Serious trolling here guys.


Wow have opinions been changed on these things. My CW friend was saying ogres were the primo choice but when I made them I was running a squad five long. It didn't work great. Meanwhile the DrOgres were run in teams of four and they did...exactly what I thought they'd do, they could hit stragglers and undedicated close combat troops and reliably win.

My advice is one of each but this is STELLAR community effort, no doubt.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Flindo said:


> my personal favorite Chaos specail unit is the Daemon prince, he has 4 wounds 7 Weapon skill BS 5 S 6 and 4 attacks, oh and +3 armor save, ph did I also mention he can fly and immune to instant death?
> I dont know what his stats are in fantasy tho, but I imagine they are simaller.


Well, aside from it's a Lord Choice in Fantasy, not a special, and a HQ choice in 40K, not a Special, and as shit in fantasy as it is good in 40K, you'd be accurate.

Please, for the love of god, look at what you're answering. If the OP wanted to know which was the best 40K "Special" choice, I'm sure he would have asked.

_____

My personal opinion for Chaos Specials, Worst - Best is:

Ogres; Forsaken, Chariot, Trolls (without Throgg), Knights, Trolls (with Throgg, but taken as support for Warriors), Chosen, Trolls (taken as a Monster army), Dragon Ogres.

Dragons Ogres, hands down, are my favourite choice, especially as I back them up with a couple of Warshrines if need be, regardless of Monster or Infantry.

I like maxing them with Great Weapons, Additional Hand Weapons, and a Champion, usually going for two units, with 3 or 4.

Why? Monstrous Infantry - so get Stomp. They can choose whether to go for Anti-Infantry, and 17 S5 Attacks followed by 4 Stomps rip through basic infantry. 13 S7 Attacks and 4 S5 Stomps is also among the best Anti-Armour capability in not just Warriors of Chaos, but also in pretty much the game.

With 4 wounds apiece and a 4+ Armour Save, they're tough as houses. 350points of Knights (6 Knights, Full Command, Magic Banner, Mark) is equivalent to 4 DOgres, with ADHW, GW, and Champion. The Ogres have 16 Wounds, and only every 4th wound will cause the unit to lose effectiveness, they are roughly equal against Infantry Hordes (thanks to Stomp), and better against Armour. In fact, Knights are only better at one thing - and that's tanking Range (with a 1+/4++ from MoT and Blasted Standard) - and Warriors can do it far better in any case thanks to at least three times as many for the same cost.

Chosen - still too expensive over warriors unless you build it around theWarshrine and bonuses.Best wayI find to get the use out of it is with the Eye of the Gods, joined by a BSB with Razor Standard, Exalted Champion with Mask of Eee!, Halberds, Shields, Mark of Nurgle, and Banner of Rage, backed by Dual Warshrines. This is pretty much guaranteed to net you the result you know you want. Ignore 2 of the results of the bat (Fear and Terror), ignore a further 2 when rolling for the Chosen special rule (Stupidity and No result), modify all results by +, and reroll all results. And even after all that, if you still don't like the result, the next turn, you can retry with the Warshrines.

Knights - Cavalry is fairly shit in 8th Edition. Khorne Knights got hit with the shit stick - it wasn't that hard to shield them from baiting, while the Frenzy also affected the horses. Now they get to test on Leadership 8 (not a guarantee, and the only chance of getting Ld10 is by sticking them within 12" of Archaon/Lord backed by the Standard of Discipline), yet the horses, miss out on doubling their attacks. They're too expensive to take multiples of, and Lances are even more useless than ever. Only reason I'd take them would be in a Mono Khorne army to take care of Ethereals. However, the fact still remains that they can kill a lot - and anyone dumb enough to use other Heavy Cavalry in units smaller than 10 will find themselves pulling their thumb out of their arse. One main benefit they have is Fear - but Dragon Ogres are just as fast/

Chariot - Slow moving, and can't break on the charge - meaning it's stuck with 4 Attacks a turn. Good for flanking, but the inability to march is a pain in the arse. Along with the model itself being shit, and metal, and heavy, I'd say not worth it.

Forsaken - fast infantry, good. Still, they don't have the Scout movement that I feel they should (representing the flayerkin from Storm of Chaos). They're fairly expensive, don't have Chaos Armour, and don't have the benefit of getting WS or S5 that normal Warriors have. Coupled with Supporting attacks only allowing +1 attack means that half miss out on 75% of available attacks - and seeing as the only reason you take them is for 20 attacks from 5 wide units, the best use for them is as a counter for flanking light cavalry or skirmishers - whoever, of course, would be stupid enough to take either of those in the current rules.

Chaos Ogres - Dragon Ogres are more expensive, but do everything better if you take them for equipment, Trolls do everything better if you take them against Horde (against the less often taken Flaming . Yes, they don't get Full Command Groups, or Marks, but they still have the 4+ Save, Trolls get Mutant Regen and Vomit, (and can be taken if you take Throgg, who also gives them Ld8), Dragon Ogres get 4 wounds, +1 Strength, and +1 WS. In fact - I'd only take Ogres for Anti-Infantry - MoK, ADHW, gives 5 Attacks apiece, +1 rank, equals 3 attacks apiece - but even then, that's too expensive, and Warriors do that job far better in any case, and are still able to take on other things effectively.

Admittedly, a Unit of 6 with Mark of Khorne and Full Command and Great Weapons comes to about 200pts IIRC, and gives you 21 S6 Attacks - however, you strike last, and at a low WS - if they're to take on Elite Armoured infantry - they're going to get slaughtered. Against Weak Armoured Infantry, why waste points when you can take more Warriors of Khorne with Halberds (3 WS5 S5 I5 Attacks against 4 WS3 S6 I0 attacks?)

Trolls are a special case. Normally, I'd rate them in the entire army as not worth it, especially when going Warrior Heavy. Taking Throgg in such an army is a nice boost, as they can hold a flank, but they're so expensive that 5 with Throgg is about 450pts, and that's a hold new unit of fully marked Chaos Warriors. They do have the benefit of being Core in that instance, though.

The other option is the Monster Army. Low Initiative Hurts them, as does Flaming Attacks. You stated that many take Lore of Fire in general - personally, I don't see why - as Lore of Metal on the whole does its job better. Especially against Warriors of Chaos whose average save is 3+, if they build a list especially for facing WoC Warriors. I've surprised more than a few people when I've played my Monster army, and made it that 4 of their spells are of no use except against Galrauch, Sorceror, BSB, and 2 units of Dragon Ogres - making them fairly easy to dispel and predict the game.

However, they're expensive, ugly metal models, and without a model for Throgg, so might need to look at the Plastic River Trolls for Cheapness.


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