# Spartan II's VS space marines?



## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Who would win in a fight? And why?
A typical Spartan 2 from the halo series, like master chief, or a typical space marine
Or how about a typical Spartan squad VS a typical space marine tactical squad, with say a missile launcher and melta gun
Or what about the astartes against the entire Spartan program?

I vote space marines on all accounts but won't say why exactly now as my phones low on charge.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Well this has really been done to death...

The Spartans will probably be more agile (though maybe not, SM are boss) but the SM will have the strength and toughness advantage. In a prolonged fight both of them will have wounds healed (one by tech and one by biology), but in general it depends on where. In an enclosed space? Cage match style? SM all the way. In a more open area it would be harder to tell.

Squad vs squad though I think SM would win hands down.

And how many Astartes? All of them? Vs. all the Spartans? Yeah, they would annihilate them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Another one!?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Who would win in a fight? And why?
> A typical Spartan 2 from the halo series, like master chief, or a typical space marine
> Or how about a typical Spartan squad VS a typical space marine tactical squad, with say a missile launcher and melta gun
> Or what about the astartes against the entire Spartan program?
> ...


Master Chief is not you typical Spartan 2 as he lived, the typical spartan died. 2s MAY be a little more agile but in a pure endurance, strength, intelligence , no weapons armor, or any objects that can be used to beat/strangle the other to death, besides the floor. The SMs going to win.... Spartan 2s were little more than enhanced humans, while SMs have gone beyond human. Both in armor...well the SMs going to crush the MJOLNIR armor like a coke can.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Sorry if this has been done before, I looked but didn't see any


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Amongst all the IP's I can think of, the Space Marines have no equal.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

Including all the points that have been mentioned... i agree SM all the way


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

Well maybe it's been done before but I haven't been on Heresy long enough to see one, so I have no trouble with this.

Spartans are probably more agile, likely just as strong, and have the advantage of shields as well. But their ballistics weaponry probably has the same statlines as stub guns and their close combat armament is lacking.

Tough call but... marines.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Sorry if this has been done before, I looked but didn't see any


Yeah. I started one of these a couple of years back. It went on for 5 pages. I wasn't even sure if a spartan vs space marine thread had been done before I even did mine.

Anyway, I'd have to go with Space Marine. More strength, better weapons, they've got better armor by far. All the spartans have is agility really. Also spartan lasers. I see those as being their version of a lascannon. Even with a spartan laser, squad v squad, SM win. One on one with a spartan laser, that one would be tough to call. 

Either way, there are a variety of factors that cannot be taken into account since they're from two different universes.

As for primarchs vs spartans... heh... we all know how that would turn out.

EDIT: Found the link. Here


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Why I let myself get sucked into these I'll never know, but this is by far the stupidest one. 

More agile and likely as strong......You clearly have no idea how insanely fast and strong Astartes are. I've always liked this quote from _Know No Fear_ to really show just how fast an Astartes reactions are, nothing I've played or seen shows the Spartans to have even remotely comparable reflexes.



> The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
> Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
> 
> He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
> All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

One thing I noticed when reading your thread death jester is that alot of people say a Spartan with a spartan laser would win- that annoyed me because if a spartan had s Spartan laser- wouldn't the space marine have a lascannon, which, I believe, has no charge up time?!?!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I swear I'm going to kill the first puppy I see next time I see a "who would win thread".


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Someone, ANYONE, please start a "Who would win: Vaz, or the first puppy that he sees?" thread!

:wink:


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

In a fight, Space Marine, no question, what's a piddly little automatic rifle going to do against a rapid fire grenade launcher? But there are other places where a Spartan might win. In activities such as volleyball, tennis, those annoying memory puzzles and charades, Spartans could probably wipe the floor with your average space marine. 

They have better manoeuvrability and have the whole 'yay teamwork' thing drilled into their skulls from day one until death. Space Marines are a little more willing to accept that one of their number can make mistakes or even become an enemy under certain circumstances, so they trust one another a little less and they aren't trained as much to work as a team. 

Spartans are also able to function better with non-spartan personell that Marines with 'mortals'. The average spartan might try to help or protect a UNSC marine or civilian if it didn't jepordize the mission at hand, but most space marines wouldn't break stride trampling the guardsmen and civilians so he could talk to his CO easier or to kill one ork.

To those who would argue about Master Chief's exploits and such, take one look at the (in some cases horrendously broken and confused) fluff of characters such as Mephiston, Lysander, various space wolves and *shudder* Draigo. We're talking guys who literally live in hell and habitually slay monsters the size mountains or hold of a bajillion enemies for months by themselves with their bare hands. So, the 'best' of the spartans vs the best of the space marines, a spartan is considered impressive for killing a handful eight foot saurian guys, using machine guns, pistols and grenades, but a space marine can vaporise four or five of the physical manifestations of hell with knife and an angry yell.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I vote Space Marines for the simple fact that they are covered in cermite armor and yet can move as flexible as a normal soldier would in full Battle-Rattle. Master Chief is a good fight, well trained, and hard to kill. that's all he has, a simple bolt round would end his life. +1 SM


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
> 
> Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
> 
> ...


So how fast are Eldar, Daemons, and Tyranids by implication?



emporershand89 said:


> Master Chief is a good fight, well trained, and hard to kill. that's all he has, a simple bolt round would end his life. +1 SM


Last time I checked, the Covenant used used plasma weaponry almost exclusively...which pwn Space Marines....which Spartans have no problem using because they are not space knights that hate everything that is of xenos origin.

Of course, there is going to be some serious hand waving momentarily about Covenant plasma weapons "not being the same as" or "inferior to" plasma weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

I would also point out that the Gaunt and his posse of badasses curb stomp a whole squad of Chaos Space Marines in a swamp with basically no gear in Traitor General. So much for being more than human.

In sum, I think that there are fundamental problems that undermine any sort of comparison between the Halo and the Warhammer 40,000 universe, particularly with regard to Spartans and Space Marines. Clearly, much of the "literature" that features Space Marines is for ****s to **** *** at night. The reverse is true with game play--Spartans are clearly better. Good. Now please lock this thread so we can get on with our lives.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

And yet, its true the covenant plasma weapons are not the same as warhammer 40K weapons. Temperature for one. Compare plasma weapon overheating to warhammer 40K plasma weapon overheating. One doesn't do anything. Doesn't even harm the shields. The other has the possibility of injuring or killing the wielder. Put it into a spartans hands. He would be annihilated by the overheating plasma gun from warhammer. A charged shot from a plasma pistol only damages shields of a spartan. Put him up against a suit of power armor. It would melt the portion it hit, but it wouldn't do anything to the skin underneat. Charged shot from a warhammer plasma weapon. It can go through tank armor. Adamantium armor (harder than the armor they use in halo) A plasma weapon from halo would not be able to achieve that. It would melt the portion slightly. That is about it.

Space Marines can survive wounds that would kill a spartan several times over. That is how much more augmented they are. A spartan can lose a limb, but he'd be in shock (evidence from Fall of Reach). A Space Marine can lose an arm and continue fighting. He could lose a leg and keep fighting. He can lose a heart and keep fighting, because he has a second there to pick up the slack. I'd like to see a spartan come close to this. Space Marine wounds clot almost instantly. Not a spartans wounds. 

Really the only fundamental problem that hampers these comparisons is the fact that they are from two different universes. One is set further in the future than the other. The thing that makes these two comparisons so prevalent is the fact that they are both augmented super warriors. They both have plenty of fluff behind them to easily make these comparisons. By mere fluff alone we can see who is better. Gameplay isn't a basis to say who is better. Besides, those of us who support the Space Marines can cite Space Marine the game as proof to the contrary. 

We all know that actual named, important characters like gaunt are uber badasses with much experience fighting on the front lines. Hell, if you make it that long as a guardsmen, then you'd definitely be a defined bad ass. It'd be no surprise if they could take out a squad of chaos marines.

I disagree that spartans are better. They are not. You can believe what you want though. Its your opinion after all.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Someone, ANYONE, please start a "Who would win: Vaz, or the first puppy that he sees?" thread!
> 
> :wink:


Consider it done.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Just would like to point out that Gaunt and his commando squad took out 5 CSM. With the help of a whole village of native huntsmen to distract most of the CSM. IIRC something like 350+ village people were killed by the CSM, wasnt like Gaunt and Co. killed them all by themsleves with no assistance from the villagers. Even if all the villagers did was act as meatshields.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

A Spartan 2 can flip over a Scorpion tank, which weighs about 72 tons. I can't see a Space Marine doing the same.

If you're quoting Spess Mehren books, the Halo books provide some good insight as to how insanely strong Spartans are...

Lets also not forget the text-form fellatio that authors tend to give Space Marines. Space Marines are tough, but if you want me to actually believe getting hit in the chest with a lascannon (Which can easily decommission a tank) isn't going to put them down, I have bad news.

Meanwhile, there are several occasions when Spartans take full-frontal hits by Hunters, who are wielding a weapon way stronger than any 40k plasma gun, and live. Spartans have shields too. And they can deflect air-to-surface missiles with their bare hands mid-flight. Thats how fast they are, and how accurate their reflexes are. The entire human race is getting completely ruined by the Covenant, and the Spartans can walk in and kill hundreds of them and come out with barely scratches.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

A spartan can flip a tank in the game. They kind of had to add that mechanic so you could continue to use them if they flipped. In the books, they have never done such a thing. Ever. I doubt they even could. Hell, theres no way a spartan II could even flip an elephant, yet they added that mechanic in the off chance that you were ever able to flip one in the first place. We're going off books here, not games dude.

And if you believe a spartan can take a lascannon shot and live, then I have bad news for you as well. A spartan with shields has never been able to take a head on fuel rod shot and live. Only one spartan two lived through it, and he had a jackal shield in front of him, as well as his own shield. And he lost an arm in the process, and was in shock afterward. It would do a space marine quite a bit of damage to his armor, and the flesh underneath, but he'd get back up and be pissed as ever. A spartan II would be dead. 

John got lucky with the air-to-surface missile, because he had Cortana's help in calculating what it would take TO deflect it. He even did himself a shit load of damage in the process. Even says that he got lucky in the book, IIRC. If he hadn't had Cortana, he would have died on that training ground. I'm not saying a space marine could do it, because I highly doubt he could. They'd both be just as dead. But John having the help of the smartest AI around helps a helluva lot.

If the spartans weren't in the direct line of fire (i.e., in their own element (i.e. their own terms)) sure they could take a hundred+ covenant and come out with a few scratches, burns, and dents. In the direct line of fire, they'd be dead like any other. A space marine would be wading through, letting his armor soak it all up, and would be able to take a few down with him. In his own element, on his own terms, theyd be dead, and the space marine would be even less harmed than the spartan.

Anything I missed? No? Good.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
> Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
> 
> He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
> All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond.



Leaves time to think about girls..... oh no wait! damn!

Space Marines all the way, do Spartans even have Jump Packs?

Also I kept dying to these little allien things on Halo, Space Marine, no problem, killed millions of Orks! As for the Nids HA! they'd use Spartans as tooth picks! Little Alliens that attach themselves to the head v Trygon (think we all know how that one would go!)

Perhaps this should be the new tool used to judge these verses threads, look at the enemies and use that to work out who's the most powerful.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> And yet, its true the covenant plasma weapons are not the same as warhammer 40K weapons. Temperature for one. Compare plasma weapon overheating to warhammer 40K plasma weapon overheating. One doesn't do anything. Doesn't even harm the shields. The other has the possibility of injuring or killing the wielder. Put it into a spartans hands. He would be annihilated by the overheating plasma gun from warhammer. A charged shot from a plasma pistol only damages shields of a spartan. Put him up against a suit of power armor. It would melt the portion it hit, but it wouldn't do anything to the skin underneat. Charged shot from a warhammer plasma weapon. It can go through tank armor. Adamantium armor (harder than the armor they use in halo) A plasma weapon from halo would not be able to achieve that. It would melt the portion slightly. That is about it.


Maybe that just means that they have better cooling technology. The Tau have plasma guns that don't "Get Hot". Those guns are still pretty good. In fact, I would argue that they are better because their use doesn't put a multi-billion dollar soldier's life on the line. The Imperium might do that if this Games Workshop didn't write this onto every book they put out:

_"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war."_

Human civilization is basically in a death spiral that it may or may not recover from. And supposing that it _only_ melted the armor, that would still make it very difficult to move....because your armor would still have some serious problems that would impede it's ability to function. Besides, if one side only has plasma guns, what sort of insane game designer would make them the end all be all of everything? This isn't X-Com.



DeathJester921 said:


> Space Marines can survive wounds that would kill a spartan several times over. That is how much more augmented they are. A spartan can lose a limb, but he'd be in shock (evidence from Fall of Reach). A Space Marine can lose an arm and continue fighting. He could lose a leg and keep fighting. He can lose a heart and keep fighting, because he has a second there to pick up the slack. I'd like to see a spartan come close to this. Space Marine wounds clot almost instantly. Not a spartans wounds.


No argument there.



DeathJester921 said:


> Really the only fundamental problem that hampers these comparisons is the fact that they are from two different universes. One is set further in the future than the other. The thing that makes these two comparisons so prevalent is the fact that they are both augmented super warriors.


Wait. I read that and thought I saw reason--these are two completely different settings that diverge wildly in terms of game philosophy, world outlook, target audience, story arcs, and so on. But then--



DeathJester921 said:


> By mere fluff alone we can see who is better.


lulz



DeathJester921 said:


> Gameplay isn't a basis to say who is better. Besides, those of us who support the Space Marines can cite Space Marine the game as proof to the contrary.


Yeah, I played that game. In fact, Space Marine is right across from me. That guy is a chump, even compared to the "more realistic" protagonist of Halo: Reach. Besides, you fight more people and the AI is better/more varied in Halo.



DeathJester921 said:


> We all know that actual named, important characters like gaunt are uber badasses with much experience fighting on the front lines. Hell, if you make it that long as a guardsmen, then you'd definitely be a defined bad ass. It'd be no surprise if they could take out a squad of chaos marines.


We all know that actual named, important product flagship products are uber badasses with lots of fan fapping. It'd be a huge surprise if normal people could take out a squad of chaos *space marines*.




DeathJester921 said:


> I disagree that spartans are better. They are not. You can believe what you want though. Its your opinion after all.


Way to make your opinion objective fact and shit on people who disagree in a make believe world. Bravo!


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

LTKage said:


> Way to make your opinion objective fact and shit on people who disagree in a make believe world. Bravo!


No problem budy . Anytime you need it again, just ask


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

*cough*termie armour*cough* and jump packs


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

LTKage said:


> Maybe that just means that they have better cooling technology. The Tau have plasma guns that don't "Get Hot".


At the cost of much less damage output.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> No problem budy . Anytime you need it again, just ask


I knew that I could count on you, bro. Can I get your opinion on this master troll/flamer? FYI, you can write comments on the bottom should you actually be interested.




kiro the avenger! said:


> *cough*termie armour*cough* and jump packs


Wtf are you talking about? They have armor lock and jump packs--a vehicle can hit you and you can kill it with armor lock. Spartans can also turn invisible...and can run...



LTKage said:


> Maybe that just means that they have better cooling technology. The Tau have plasma guns that don't "Get Hot". Those guns are still pretty good. *In fact, I would argue that they are better because their use doesn't put a multi-billion dollar soldier's life on the line*.





Malus Darkblade said:


> At the cost of much less damage output.


That is true *but* it's also easier to mass produce also easier to mass produce and use in the field. So what if you don't have one guy hauling around a the IG plasma gun? You give everyone that gun and you give one of them a rocket launcher. I also have a feeling that it wouldn't be hard to make "higher" output plasma weapons, which they did to a certain extent in Halo 2.

In conclusion, has anyone played the newest Halo game? And has Vaz destroyed some puppy yet?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

LTKage said:


> In conclusion, has anyone played the newest Halo game?


Halo 4? That super hero love story shit wankage? I loved it at first, but the more I think about the game the more I come to hate it.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Librarians, dreadnoughts, rapid-fire rocket lauchers as basic weapons, iron halo, storm shields, power fists, power swords, chain swords as basic
Are we found in halo reach or 4? 4s the most recent and no armour lock there! And it's not invisibility, it's active camo, big difference, and space marines have super eyesight, they could probs detect re sensitive ripples, in fact, in Horus rising, at the start, I believe it's loken who kills some active camouflaged warriors, anyway, active camo is covenant tech, not UNSC. Jet packs are very different to jump packs, jumps provide forward momentum, jet packs go up. Space marines can sprint, jump, do back flip and every thing as well.
Have I missed anything?


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Doelago said:


> Halo 4? That super hero love story shit wankage? I loved it at first, but the more I think about the game the more I come to hate it.


I hand't played it but I can see that it has left you a charred emotional wreck with little, if any, semblance of self left. Looks like a pass for me.



kiro the avenger! said:


> Librarians, dreadnoughts, rapid-fire rocket lauchers as basic weapons, iron halo, storm shields, power fists, power swords, chain swords as basic
> Are we found in halo reach or 4? 4s the most recent and no armour lock there! And it's not invisibility, it's active camo, big difference, and space marines have super eyesight, they could probs detect re sensitive ripples, in fact, in Horus rising, at the start, I believe it's loken who kills some active camouflaged warriors, anyway, active camo is covenant tech, not UNSC. Jet packs are very different to jump packs, jumps provide forward momentum, jet packs go up.
> Have I missed anything?


Yeah. You could say that Shields=Iron Halo. It's also not surprising that they took armor lock out because it was broken in multiplayer. The things you outlined also have little reason to have any equivalent in any other setting. Why would any non-40k military have something like a Dreadnaught? I still have a hard time understanding why Space Marines have Dreadnaughts.

The Jetpack/Jump pack distinction isn't really useful because you can clearly use a jet pack as a jump pack. If anything, Space Marines lose out.

Well, cloaking technology does render you invisible. That's the whole idea behind cloaking technology although degree of success is an issue. Be that as it may, I'm also pretty sure that anyone who has ever played a video game can tell you that imperfect invisibility is still good and I'm sure that any soldier (Astartes included) would also agree. There's a reason why camouflage exists.



kiro the avenger! said:


> *Space marines can [do] every thing as well.*


I see you're relying on the "they can do everything" defense. Well played, Kiro the Avenger! I haven't see anything so compelling since Johnnie Cochran's Chewbacca Defense. Masterful.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

From flipping 72 ton scorpion tanks, to being able to drop the atmosphere and land on the surface of the planet alive and in relatively good condition is what spartans can and have done (without wearing armor). 

Those saying Astartes are stronger or faster is merely an opinion, going by the books and the game which in that mythos is canon shows the spartans to be physically superior. 

Saying warhammer plasma guns are superior is once again pure speculation, one could easily state that convenant technology eclipses anything that the imperium of man has shown so why not their plasma weapons as well.

Spartan armor and shields have shown to be able to withstand direct hits from hunter plasma cannons, a space marine isnt going to get through that easily by any means.

If anything it would be the spartans that are dancing circles around the astartes, while pulling their appendages off their bodies.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

LTKage said:


> I see you're relying on the "they can do everything" defense. Well played, Kiro the Avenger! I haven't see anything so compelling since Johnnie Cochran's Chewbacca Defense. Masterful.


Right..cause the high and mighty attitude is totally going to help get your point across. Just because you can be an ass doesn't mean you have to be one in order to convince other people.



LTKage said:


> Yeah. You could say that Shields=Iron Halo.


Except it kinda isn't; a missile, tank shell, general heavy ordanance still goes right through a spartan shield whereas an iron halo projects an energy field that has a decent chance to absorb all of, or at least most of, the damage of those same weapons.




LTKage said:


> Why would any non-40k military have something like a Dreadnaught?


Coincidently, halo 4 features a vehicle called the mantis. What is it? Why a bipedal machine with missiles on one arm and a chaingun on the other; their variation of a dreadnought if you will.

So why would anyone else have something like that? Because they can. (Personally I find myself asking the same question about mobile suits and mechs.)



LTKage said:


> I still have a hard time understanding why Space Marines have Dreadnaughts.


Because the horrendously injured space marine controlling the thing cannot be fixed up with bionics but can otherwise still be of use in a combat situation.



LTKage said:


> The Jetpack/Jump pack distinction isn't really useful because you can clearly use a jet pack as a jump pack. If anything, Space Marines lose out.


Why? From what we have seen spartan jump packs allow for extremely limited and short range mobility while the opposite is true of astartes ones. 



LTKage said:


> I'm also pretty sure that anyone who has ever played a video game can tell you that imperfect invisibility is still good and I'm sure that any soldier (Astartes included) would also agree. There's a reason why camouflage exists.


First, I personally hate cloaking tech in video games because it never seems to work for me. No matter how well I am hidden with cloaking, the enemy see's me and everyone starts shooting; fucking useless.

That aside, keep in mind that the Tau employ stealth technology and space marines have been able to combat them.


And finally, not gonna even bother responding to Lux's post. Seeing as it is a mish-mash of things previously said, and were answered, and double standard opinion (fluff for marines doesn't count but fluff for spartans does? Fuck off.)


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It is okay Darkreever, a lack of response to some thing is still a response. I appreciate your open mindedness, as well as your fairly well formulated response. Keep it up mate!

I just have this inkling, that some individuals within this thread associate their own identity with warhammer 40k to such a degree that any inclination of it as a mythos being inferior is a slight directly against their own value.

Darkeever, how much do you drink?

However I digress, spartans in the books as well as the games, have shown that their shields are quite formidable. It is almost comical how emotionaly strung the responses become of certain individuals when comparing concept versus concept, iron halo versus "halo shields". Yes let us claim each opposing argument is discrediting the opposing mythos's fluff, while exalting purely their own. When the majority of in text examples of the Iron Halo's formidably in regards to kinetic absorption varies so widely from text to text, that drawing any sort of reliable average would be comical.

Absolutely Beautiful.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Thebtrick is you are asking what the opinion of one to another, when not everyome knows. I haven't played Halo or read halo books so i don't know.

However i have read near enough EVERYTHING space marine based, am experienced in the quantified accounts of Space Marines equipment (i.e how effective Boltguns are in comparison to todays weapons). I struggle to think of anything that is anywhere near capable of beating them, outside of massively outweighed numbers, or supernatural strength- daemons, nids, etc.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Thebtrick is you are asking what the opinion of one to another, when not everyome knows. I haven't played Halo or read halo books so i don't know.
> 
> However i have read near enough EVERYTHING space marine based, am experienced in the quantified accounts of Space Marines equipment (i.e how effective Boltguns are in comparison to todays weapons). I struggle to think of anything that is anywhere near capable of beating them, outside of massively outweighed numbers, or supernatural strength- daemons, nids, etc.



I tend to see Spartans as vastly superior custodes, in that they operate individually (after reach was glassed), hinging upon their superior intellect, physicality, and tactics.

I by no means discredit the speed, strength, and power of a astartes, it is just that the spartans showed feats that trumped anything I have seen of any space marine (barring special characters).

Some people like to discredit the game as canon, yet it is canon when it comes to the halo mythos. Flipping 72 ton scorpion tanks (in game), to survivng dropping from the atmosphere without armor (books), to being able to rip elites apart by the dozens (books). 

I think what needs to be established here, really is the power, strength, and speed of an elite, to demonstrate just how powerful spartans are by comparison (fall of reach). 

Speed wise spartans were able to outrun covenant hover bikes, and out maneuver incoming missiles, rockets, and other ordinance. 

I just take it as I see it, and spartans trump astartes in individual power, however in a war a legion/chapter would win due to superior numbers and space craft. 

A better comparison would have been the Human Federation of Old (the one which fought the forerunners) Versus the Imperium of man.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hate to be the bearer of prejudice, but your 'seeing it' is notoriously... how we say... 'out there' Lux.

The game is easy enough to discount as canon: gameplay sacrifices story. 

A heavy stubber is the equivalent of a 50 cal hmg. That means a Guardsman can punch as hard as a .50. One round to the chest just disintegrates the standard human, yet it takes 2 hits to reliably, mathematically kill a guardsman by wounds, and 33% of those shots are saved, essentially takes 6 hits to reliably guarantee a kill of a guardsman with a 50 cal gun. A guardsman is, admittedly, an immensely fit, highly skilled individual (according to Cadia and Tanith as example, likely around Marine or even SEAL level fitness and training and/or experience), but NOTHING human can withstand a big 50 direct hit.

And yet they do.

Not to mention in close combat they punch with the same force.

Game = canon? I think not.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

LTKage- I see you've done the old 'pick out a small section and pretend that's the lot' trick, because I acually said that space marines can run, jump, hop whatever they can all _that_ kind if thing, not space marines can do every thing fullstop.
And I haven't read the halo books, only played the games, and so I base my opinion off of that, but have you heard of plot armour? It's were the antagonist can survive impossible feats because there the main guy- it would suck if the master chief took a needle rifle or whatever to the face, like cat, wouldn't it? So he _can't_ that doesnt mean he's acually invicible, however it's not one space marine that does all this stuff- it's all if them.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The actual answer is based on which book is being written.

If it's a Halo book the Spartans will win.

If it's a 40K book, SM win.

If it's a Batman book, Batman wins.

Plot armor is the best protection of all k:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Hate to be the bearer of prejudice, but your 'seeing it' is notoriously... how we say... 'out there' Lux.
> 
> The game is easy enough to discount as canon: gameplay sacrifices story.
> 
> ...


You're comparing 40k table top to Halo a digital game, the reason the Halo digital is 1st degree canon is because the books came after it and were based upon it.

It is similar to the varying levels of canon that George Lucas classifies for the entirety of the star wars mythos.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Now who is discounting whose canon?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Now who is discounting whose canon?


Not discounting canon at all, merely stating that tabletop from Gamesworkshop own stance, holds a lower level of canon then do the Black Library books within their mythos.

I am not stating anything is not canon, I am stating to be aware and recognize varying levels of canon within each mythos.

When debating, and or discussing comparisons between different IP's and or mythos, one should be using examples that do not conflict with higher levels of canon.

Thus if one person presents a argument formulated upon the Warhammer 40k table top as the basis of their presentation, yet the example is in conflict with an example brought forth from the black library books then the warhammer 40k table top example is discounted.

The same goes for the halo mythos when using examples, any example is fine taken from canon material however when a higher level of canon within its mythos contrast a lower level example you go with the higher level display.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Lux said:


> You're comparing 40k table top to Halo a digital game, the reason the Halo digital is 1st degree canon is because the books came after it and were based upon it.
> 
> It is similar to the varying levels of canon that George Lucas classifies for the entirety of the star wars mythos.


If Halo digital is canon, why can Master Chief survive a drop from low orbit to the ground, but be killed by the explosive force of a rocket, which does not disfigure his body in anyway or even blacken his armor?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Just looking at Lux's first post, he is even discounting Halo canon, Vaz. In the books, no spartan has withstood a direct hit from a hunters fuel rod cannon. James had a jackal shield, and his own shield, and it still took off an arm and left him in complete shock with his armor worse for wear. No spartan has survived atmospheric jumps without armor. Ever. 

The flipping a 72 ton tank argument is a gameplay mechanic that is essential if you flip your fucking tank. Look at the elephant. There is no way a spartan could flip that big bastard, and yet if you somehow managed to flip it in game, Bungie thought ahead and added the mechanic to flip it back upright. In the books, they have never flipped a tank. The only vehicles they could flip would be warthogs and smaller. 

They weren't even in the upper atmosphere of Reach when their pelican was hit. They were well below the upper atmosphere. They maxed out the gel layer for maximum cushion in their armor, they bumped their shields up to max in all areas, and they aimed for a forest to help break their fall. And yet still several died, and over half were left injured from it, horribly or otherwise. That is about 30 or so combat effective spartans that made that jump. When they landed, they were well below half combat effectiveness. Out in the open, the spartans were slaughtered up against the covenant. This you could tell when one of them commed Fred whom was elsewhere on planet. Not to say they didn't put up a fight though, because they did. They put up a hell of a fight.

Honestly Lux, I don't know where you got the dropping from atmosphere and surviving the fall without armor deal. Never happened. Ever. I remember everything from the books. Nowhere did that ever happen. Also a simple google search would further prove my point, but I digress. Its also pointless to suggest using google since you never seem to use it. You seem to make it up as you go.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

As I stated in the Halo Mythos, the game is the highest form of canon with the books being secondary. When an example from the books is contrasted by the game, then the games example is taken in place. However all examples from the books are valid as long as they are not made invalid by the game.

Nothing I have said is made up at all


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lux said:


> Not discounting canon at all, merely stating that tabletop from Gamesworkshop own stance, holds a lower level of canon then do the Black Library books within their mythos.
> 
> I am not stating anything is not canon, I am stating to be aware and recognize varying levels of canon within each mythos.
> 
> ...


But teleporting Mortarion? Dude. You can't even quote a fact correctly. You read it how you desire, replace Mortarion in that quote with anyone else, and it is a metaphor.

Can you provide me with GW's quote (or indeed quote your own sources, in particular for halo) that states that their game is anything less than canon?

The storyline is the canon. If Spartan PC dies, you reload until you continue in the story. Multiplayer certainly doesn't count. The mechanics of the game are there to tell a story in single player. Otherwise are you going to include Dawn of War? I can make a single battle company produce more than an entire chapters worth of marines. Thats in single player, as well though.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> But teleporting Mortarion? Dude. You can't even quote a fact correctly. You read it how you desire, replace Mortarion in that quote with anyone else, and it is a metaphor.
> 
> Can you provide me with GW's quote (or indeed quote your own sources, in particular for halo) that states that their game is anything less than canon?
> 
> The storyline is the canon. If Spartan PC dies, you reload until you continue in the story. Multiplayer certainly doesn't count. The mechanics of the game are there to tell a story in single player. Otherwise are you going to include Dawn of War? I can make a single battle company produce more than an entire chapters worth of marines. Thats in single player, as well though.


I think you may be experiencing difficulties with understanding how varying levels of canon work within a single continuity, and then comparing it with another IP altogether that also possesses varying levels of canon within its mythos. 

The very fact that you are referencing Mortation teleporting which is entirely left to interpretation, of which you then have concluded he has not demonstrates your extremely fixated opinion as being correct above all others (save for those who agree with you).

What is canon concerning the Halo games is the campaign storyline and all feats done within it, the main character dying obviously is not canon as then the ending of the storyline would not be achieved.

All it takes is a bit of...perception to understand, perhaps you should take up reading some classic literature, it may help you to understand varying paradigms.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> All it takes is a bit of...perception to understand, perhaps you should take up reading some classic literature, it may help you to understand varying paradigms.


If reading classic literature will make people understand your bizarre and warped opinions, then I suggest people avoid it like a bus drivers house in Ohio.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Guys, please keep the flaming to the normal spots
http://http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123426


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lux, Spartans surviving atmospheric falls without armor is made up. No where, in books or games, has that ever happened. No where, in books or games, has a spartan ever survived a direct hit from a hunter fuel rod cannon. James is a special exemption because he had his shields, and a jackal energy shield held up in front of him, and like I said, he lost his arm, his armor was badly damaged, and he was in shock. Yes, both of your examples are made up.

Game mechanics that are essential cannot be taken as canon. A spartan cannot lift 72 ton. They cannot flip a 72 ton tank. From a canon stand point, Spartan II's can lift about three times their body weight which is double what it originally was because of their augmentations. No, they cannot flip a 72 ton tank. Even in their armor, with it enhancing their strength, they would never be able to flip a 72 ton tank. It would take several spartans to flip it. It took several to push a 160 ton monument on top of a hunter. They had trouble with it, even when they got a good running start and shoulder barged it. So how can 1 spartan, who isn't even the strongest of them (not even by a longshot) flip a 72 ton tank by himself with relative ease?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Classic literature? You mean like Homer? Socrates? Luo Kuan Chung, Sun Tzu? Churchill? Bronte sisters? Stoker? Shelley? Twain? Virgil? JG Frazer? Marx, Wilde? Powell? Nietzche?

Lose the ad hominems, suggesting I am some literary luddite is horribly misplaced.

How you got the ability to teleport from (paraphrased) "he stepped out of the shadow like a big crow" I have no idea.

If games are canon then; http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sSDAu7sHE_c

Break dancing tanks are a thing then?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Lux said:


> paradigms.


*SOUND THE ALARMS! HE SAID 'PARADIGMS'!*


Reminds me of the phrase "would you kindly" from Bioshock. I think that's Lux's trigger word...


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## Troll king (May 30, 2013)

Ok to the people who are siding with halo are you insane 

Point 1: I have a best friend who knows everything there is to know about halo and I myself know what there is to know about 40k and we talk about this frequently. He agrees space marines will win

Reason 1 first we talk the biology/augmentation system now a Spartan is taken a as a child and trained to a be deadly weapon for years and get augmentations am I right? So they are still mortals yes?( I don't mean anything by that) Now when initiates are pick it depends on each chapter for example fenris for the final test you have to with stand the night of fenris alone with nothing at all really and have to make it back to the fang now do you think that a spartan with out armor could do that cause the people who choose Spartans make it no offense or anything sound like a spartan can do anything in its armor so in my point of view they are nothing unless they have their armor. Now when a initiate passes the final test they get their whole fuckin biology system changed. Some can even spit acid 


Reason 2
Armor and weapons who ever said halo weapons are far stronger then 40k ......
Do you know why it's called 40k cause its the fecking 41st millennium 40,000 years further then halo so do I need say any more 


Reason 3 

I for one even think imperial guard can beat Spartans you wanna know why one word.......opcorn: baneblade


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

But Baneblades only weigh 23540923450923847 tons, they're smaller thatn an Elephant, and they can be easily flipped.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Spartans would be moving faster than Space Marines could visually track, then the Spartans would be grabbing the bane blades and be using them as melee weapons against the Astartes.

This really is not much of a comparison, Spartans take this hands down.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Spartans would be moving faster than Space Marines could visually track,


Yeah... Spartans are no where near that fast, very few things are. Spartans are only slightly faster than an average human in armour, Space Marines can move faster than that and can certainly visually track faster than that.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Yeah... Spartans are no where near that fast, very few things are. Spartans are only slightly faster than an average human in armour, Space Marines can move faster than that and can certainly visually track faster than that.


Your knowledge on Spartans is apparently lacking, Spartans are vastly faster then humans...there is no comparison. They are faster than elites, Spartans are able to out run high speed vehicles while in armor. Furthermore they are able to outfight Elites in hand to hand combat, of which Elites movement speed is faster then what normal humans can perceive.

The spartans would in all likelihood would pick up the enemy baneblades, thunderhawks and start wielding them as melee weapons against the astartes,


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Your knowledge on Spartans is apparently lacking,


My knowledge comes from the games. Master Chief is slightly faster than accompanying humans and notably slower than warthogs. If you want to sight sources for "move so fast you literally can't see them" feel free. That would be standard practice for most people but unfortunately not you.



> Spartans are able to out run high speed vehicles while in armor.


And yet routinely ride in these vehicles (which notably renders them unable to use a weapon properly). If a Spartan was faster than a warthog surely they wouldn't use them? Warthogs don't even provide the benefit of added protection (like rhino's do) so there would be literally no point in riding in one if the Spartans were as fast as you claim.



> Furthermore they are able to outfight Elites in hand to hand combat, of which Elites movement speed is faster then what normal humans can perceive.


And yet humans fought the Elites. If the Elites were as fast as you claim (not that you'll provide evidence for this claim) than humans would've been almost completely powerless against them, which they weren't.



> The spartans would in all likelihood would pick up the enemy baneblades, thunderhawks and start wielding them as melee weapons against the astartes,


And we have troll.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> My knowledge comes from the games. Master Chief is slightly faster than accompanying humans and notably slower than warthogs. If you want to sight sources for "move so fast you literally can't see them" feel free. That would be standard practice for most people but unfortunately not you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is not my fault in any way if your knowledge of the Halo Mythos is limited purely to the digital games, there is a plethora of licensed books on the series.

You state "And we have troll", yet it really is your lack of knowledge on the subject that is limiting our intellectual discussion of these great literary works.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Lux said:


> of these great literary works.


:rofl:

That's a good 'un.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Yeah... Spartans are no where near that fast, very few things are. Spartans are only slightly faster than an average human in armour, Space Marines can move faster than that and can certainly visually track faster than that.


Where as spartans being too fast for a space marine to track is a bunch of shit, in the books, they can indeed run much faster than normal humans. They are capable of running about 55 km/h outside of their armor with Kelly being able to run a little faster. Inside their armor, their movement speed is increased. Kelly's increased to 62 km/h. In a training exercise (where his life was put on the line because of a jackass admiral wanting to truly test out their abilities and hopefully kill him in the process), John was able to briefly run at 105 km/h but tore his achilles tendon because it wasn't able to endure the stress. 

Being too fast for a space marine to track? Yeah, no. Being able to pick up a baneblade... Well, look earlier in the thread and you'll see me dispute claims of them being able to flip 72 ton tanks with ease simply because its a game mechanic that was introduced to make life for a player easier in MP games. After all, people flip their vehicles over all the time in MP. Wouldn't it be a bitch if you couldn't flip them back over and continue to use them? In the books, Master Chief has a bit of trouble simply flipping a warthog over. 

Elites movements. Where as they do have faster movements than normal humans, Lux is just _*greatly*_ (heavy, heavy emphasis on greatly) over exaggerating... again... 

But then again, there is no reasoning with him. Simply can't be done.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Wait a sec guys, heres a good one to help in better pointing out Lux's bullshit. For this I will need the help of Lux himself, or rather a previous post of his:



Lux said:


> As I stated in the Halo Mythos, the game is the highest form of canon with the books being secondary. When an example from the books is contrasted by the game, then the games example is taken in place. However all examples from the books are valid as long as they are not made invalid by the game.


And now we have him directly contradicting himself, since now the stuff from the games is clearly not the end all be all.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Wait a sec guys, heres a good one to help in better pointing out Lux's bullshit. For this I will need the help of Lux himself, or rather a previous post of his:
> 
> 
> 
> And now we have him directly contradicting himself, since now the stuff from the games is clearly not the end all be all.


My dear fellow apparition of reality Darkreever, allow me to bring you clarity upon the concepts you seem to be befuddled by. 

All takings from the book are canon as long as they do not discredit the showings in the games, that is how multiple levels of canon work when operating with one another.

So tell me, what exactly is it you are trying to convey but are apparently confounded by, due to a lack on abstract processing? 

I am here to assist thee my fellow....entity.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

For the record, everyone, I'm sorry. I may have just killed us all.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124819&page=6

Read and you shall understand why he is now using the word "entity" and the words "apparition of reality" to describe darkreever and soon, us. Again, sorry. Didn't think that one post would drive him over the edge. Sorry.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Lux said:


> The spartans would in all likelihood would pick up the enemy baneblades, thunderhawks and start wielding them as melee weapons against the astartes,


Is that while they are also launching fire balls from their asses?

Seriously do you even read the "facts" (read that as bollacks) you post? A spartan who is what 8 foot tall if going to wield a thunderhawk which is over 26 meters long as a melee weapon? 

That explains why a punch from a Spartan sends a grunt flying into outer atmosphere then...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

No complaints from me, I find it to be completely hilarious.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Space marines have better stats in almost all departments 

Given equal numbers and an even playing field, I see space marines stomping 9/10


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## Troll king (May 30, 2013)

Lux no mortal no matter what you think spartan is still mortal no mortal can pick up a fecking bane blade now if you still wanna argue on that point I got another......... Titan...... Don't even think of saying that spartan can pick it up .....

Cause I will find you :blackeye:


Trolololololol


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> It is not my fault in any way if your knowledge of the Halo Mythos is limited purely to the digital games, there is a plethora of licensed books on the series.


I don't deny that, I'm just not interested in reading them. If you want to sight some, then do so, if you want to criticize my literary choices, then eat a dick pavlova. 



DeathJester921 said:


> Where as spartans being too fast for a space marine to track is a bunch of shit, in the books, they can indeed run much faster than normal humans. They are capable of running about 55 km/h outside of their armor with Kelly being able to run a little faster. Inside their armor, their movement speed is increased. Kelly's increased to 62 km/h. In a training exercise (where his life was put on the line because of a jackass admiral wanting to truly test out their abilities and hopefully kill him in the process), John was able to briefly run at 105 km/h but tore his achilles tendon because it wasn't able to endure the stress.


Thanks DeathJester. That's not remotely ridiculous. It's also roughly equal to the speed of a Space Marine.



Lux said:


> All takings from the book are canon as long as they do not discredit the showings in the games, that is how multiple levels of canon work when operating with one another.
> 
> So tell me, what exactly is it you are trying to convey but are apparently confounded by, due to a lack on abstract processing?


The games depict Master Chiefs movement speeds a particular way (as I outlined in my last post). You say (and do not support) that the novels depict them differently. However, as you state earlier (as quoted by darkreever) the games are a higher canon. As you state now the books are only canon when they do not discredit the game. Therefore the movement speeds show in the game are accurate and canon, while those depicted in the books are not. "Abstract processing" has nothing to do with it. Logic does, which I think is why you are having trouble with it. I am here to assist thee my fellow... entity.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

These threads are so great to read.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

What's also worth remembering is that Spartan IIs are fond of spawncamping with snipers, so if by some chance they do kill a Space Marine, they can just keep killing him every time he respawns until he ragequits.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Vaz said:


> I swear I'm going to kill the first puppy I see next time I see a "who would win thread".


Even though I been gone a near year, Vaz still hates these threads lol.

Somethings never change. Like these Who would win threads. :so_happy:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Even though I been gone a near year, Vaz still hates these threads lol.
> 
> Somethings never change. Like these Who would win threads. :so_happy:


You and Vaz are part of these threads. There ALWAYS has to be one who says "I will kill the first _insert something_ I see if I see another one of these" and one who says "These threads are (always the same/just like the last one)"


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Why I let myself get sucked into these I'll never know, but this is by far the stupidest one.
> 
> More agile and likely as strong......You clearly have no idea how insanely fast and strong Astartes are. I've always liked this quote from _Know No Fear_ to really show just how fast an Astartes reactions are, nothing I've played or seen shows the Spartans to have even remotely comparable reflexes.


AWESOME!!!! KNOW NO FEAR lol what an epic call forgot never knew how awesome that line was till some one else spelt it out to me. 

P.S pity about the result. :angry:


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

Lux said:


> My dear fellow apparition of reality Darkreever, allow me to bring you clarity upon the concepts you seem to be befuddled by.
> 
> All takings from the book are canon as long as they do not discredit the showings in the games, that is how multiple levels of canon work when operating with one another.
> 
> ...


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