# Space Marines and Sisters of Battle



## William Siegfried (Jun 25, 2011)

Just a question I have, but I want to know if a Space Marine would have been allowed to fall in love with a human woman or a sister of battle? You hear about the sisters falling in love with mortal men and all that, but you never hear of a Space Marine falling for a mortal woman or Sister of Battle. We're the emotions of love also wiped clean from them as they became Space Marines or are they too allowed to fall in love some how. Maybe not love but sleep with opposite sex. Its just a question that I thought up randomly while reading one of the Commissar Cain books XD. I mean why can't they sleep with a woman? They're still human as well, and there is even stories of how the Emperor had also slept with the opposite sex. 


WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Are they even functional in that matter after the process?


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Desire is bred out of marines. Although they can display strong feelings of loyalty and compassion it's not a love.

And they do not feel emotions like lust

Remember marines ARE NOT human in the same we are, in order to protect humanity they must sacrifice theirs. 

As far as the emperor is concerned he's not a marine, with biological manipulation and psychological conditioning but the greatest of men.


----------



## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

It's debatable wether they still have the capacity to become physically involved with a woman any more. Also from the image that is projected of the marines it would seem that the modifications done to their brain chemistry blank out many of the more liberal human emotions. You never read about marines succuming to lust and many who have become corrupted or turned traitor have done so due to intellectual manipulation rather than simpley being bad eggs. 

The image projected from gw is that their core failing is pride, standard humans are more likely to fall to lust in real life. 

PS: This should probably be moved to the 40k forum.


----------



## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

no, marines dont fall in love, many see humans as below them.

more often than not, marines are infact religious zealots, their whole life consumed by battle in the name of the EMPRAH!!

i dont even think their 'crown jewels' work anymore. i know space marines are infertile at least


----------



## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

From the purely physical point of view, I don't think the pieces can fit together anymore. Consider the size of the average space marine who is a giant among men.

I remember reading somewhere that one of the first things that a female rememberancer thought when she looked upon a space marine was "what a waste" implying that she would never have a chance, even if she threw herself at him.


----------



## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

And even if he could fit, his superhuman hips would probably break her in two...


----------



## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

coke123 said:


> And even if he could fit, his superhuman hips would probably break her in two...


the phrase 'snap like a twig' comes to mind


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It's called hypno-indoctrination. It involves the suppression of certain stimuli and emotions (hence, "And They Shall Know No Fear") and the enhancement of others (aggression, for instance).

I think its effects are shown well in William King's first couple Space Wolves novels, which focus on Ragnar Blackmane while he's still a young Blood Claw. His lingering humanity is there to be seen, to include feeling attraction toward a good-looking Inquisitor lady. The gradual detachment from those emotions is also detailed, though--his feelings aren't described as out-and-out romantic feelings, but more like registering a memory of something he once possessed.


----------



## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Are they even functional in that matter after the process?


Nope, just plastic underpants down there....just like Action Man....particularly the Ultramarines :biggrin:


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is a quick unofficial explanation. Que nerd rage.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I keep waiting for the punchline.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They don't know what love is and they don't have a penis or any balls, literally.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that's not correct, and that the closest anyone on the design teams or BL have come to addressing this is in "Rynn's World":

_"It was Traegus [the sixteenth Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists] who had initiated the controversial breeding programmes—programmes by which the Chapter’s failed aspirants, those who had survived the trials and had not been rendered sterile, were bred with women of suitable genetic stock in the hope of creating male offspring strong enough to swell the ranks of the Chapter one day as full Astartes.

Unfortunately, the results had been unpredictable and disappointing."_

One might question what on earth the trials of the Crimson Fists would entail that might lead someone to be sterile. The Dark Angels, for instance (see "Angels of Darkness") seem to focus just on martial, endurance, and strength-based competitions. The Blood Angels similarly deal with endurance and survival trials followed by gladiator games. Absent a serious injury to one's genitalia, I don't see how someone would come out of a "Hell Week"-style apprenticeship minus penis and testicles.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

coke123 said:


> And even if he could fit, his superhuman hips would probably break her in two...














Words_of_Truth said:


> They don't know what love is and they don't have a penis or any balls, literally.


You are aware that when they castrate them, which may or may not be a universal accepted process, they only remove the testies, right? See, cutting off old Mr. Happy is a bad idea because it would lead to certain problems.

Besides, that would be one insane case of overkill. It would be like trying to stop breast cancer by blowing off their torso. IOW, just a bit much.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> I'm pretty sure that's not correct, and that the closest anyone on the design teams or BL have come to addressing this is in "Rynn's World":
> 
> "It was Traegus [the sixteenth Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists] who had initiated the controversial breeding programmes—programmes by which the Chapter’s failed aspirants, those who had survived the trials and had not been rendered sterile, were bred with women of suitable genetic stock in the hope of creating male offspring strong enough to swell the ranks of the Chapter one day as full Astartes.
> 
> ...


What's not correct? What I said?

Aspirants are not Marines, they are yet to receive any of the organs and geneseed. 

Anyway I may of jumped to conclusions, but I'm assuming they either remove their reproductive abilities by sterilising them in some way and removing the nerves so that being kicked in the crotch doesn't hurt. I don't know whether Marines need the toilet or not but I'd think they had no need as what they eat and drink is conserved and used in some way.

In relation to the trials...

I believe they are sent into a swamp called blackwater or something which resembles parts of a Death World, that's present on Rynn's World.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

That's the thing, though. It's an assumption based on perceived need. Not reality. Or, well, "reality". :wink:

Hypno-indoctrination removes the need to sterilize. It relegates it to unecessary surgery. Removing genitalia becomes as crucial as removing fingernails--do Astartes need those, either? If hypno-indoctrination were to fail, you'd have a much bigger problem than an Astartes getting "the urge".

Removal of said organs also becomes unecessary surgery. An Astartes is meant to go to battle armored. While armored, his groin is as protected as any other part of his body. His enhanced physiology is meant to stave off pain from his groin as surely as from any other area. If his armor is gone, he has bigger worries than his junk getting shot off--what about his cranium? If his physiology fails him and he starts feeling pain in a debilitating sense, hid inability to lean on a wounded leg or swing a wounded arm would be much more crucial than whether his balls hurt.

There's all sorts of stuff that can go wrong when genetic augmentation surgery is performed by people who, according to Index Astartes I, more often than not aren't 100% sure of what they're doing and throw in arcane mumbo-jumbo to boot. I mean, "success" is indicated by a super-soldier that often enough also happens to be a homicidal sociopath. So it's not beyond the realm of the plausible that a large number of Astartes end up sterile through the various chemical and surgical barrages they are exposed to.

Purposeful sterilization as a matter of course, though? It's not stated, and absent indication that this happens I seriously doubt that it does. It's, as stated above, redundant and uneccessary.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

While it might be redundant, it is still widely, if not universally practiced. I believe Rick Priestly stated that they are castrated.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I hear folks say that a lot, but it's generally along the lines of "someone told me someone from the design team said so".

No offense, gen.ahab, I'm not questioning your integrity. It's just the internet has a way of making memes into truth. I kept myself from offering my take on Astartes height as canon fact until I found a podcast with Jed Godwin spelling out how tall Space Marines were on average. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wel, if you want the words from the prophet's mouth, you can hear it on ep.21 of 40k radio. And no offense taken, I completely understand.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks! Consider my objections withdrawn! :biggrin:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Thanks! Consider my objections withdrawn! :biggrin:


You are welcome, and, tbh, I think it is stupid as well. :laugh:


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

So my assumptions where correct? I rock


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Damn you!... :biggrin:

I'm listening to the show in question, though, just to be safe. :wink:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> So my assumptions where correct? I rock


Partially. They don't cut off Mr. Happy. :crazy:


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

This has me thinking of something. Will create a seperate thread to kep this one on track.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I am hereby rescinding the withdrawal of my objections!

I'm pretty sure Rick Priestly is taking the piss regarding the Space Marines being castrated, given the context of his statements. :wink:


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Can marines love yes, can they reproduce...not sure GW has not made a statement on the matter in the last 2 editions or so, meaning untill they make a fluff or codex statement we must assume they either can't, won't, don't want ect for what ever reason. Besides even if they could their is no reason such a coupling would procedure anything but a regular human in that most of the marines gene therapy is very specifically coded and may not affect the reproductive tract.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Given that a Space Marine is someone who is taken as a hyper violent child, then subjected to extensive chemical and hypno therapy while being indoctrinated and brainwashed i see them having no sexual desire at all. 

The question of whether they can actually do the deed is more open. I'm sure they still have a penis, removing that would just cause problems. They may or may not be castrated. They may or may not be rendered sterile, either deliberately or as a by-product of the chemical therapy and implantation procedure. I also imagine a Astartes is exposed to a fair amount of radiation throughout his life. 

In my interpretation of the fluff i take the line that yes they physically could however they have no desire to do so at all and being sterile it would result in nothing. (Also in my view of Astartes they're far less human than what you most often see. I mean come on, someone taken as a hyper violent child, brainwashed, physically and mentally altered and the told he is invincible and an Angel of Death. Then subjected to a life of endless war. That's going to fuck someone up)


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I am hereby rescinding the withdrawal of my objections!
> 
> I'm pretty sure Rick Priestly is taking the piss regarding the Space Marines being castrated, given the context of his statements. :wink:


:stinker: You don't get to decide what he says is or is not bullshit. :laugh:

Until further notice, marines are half men.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I Imagine with lack of details that Astartes constantly exhaust their bodies with training and preoccupy/stress out their brains with many responsibilities. 

Those of you who have had an exhausting job or been to bootcamp know what I mean.

The only problem with this theory is that once they are no longer stressed out they would become sexual dinosaurs.

So in that sense, at least to control astartes, I imagine castration would be essential in order to seperate them from any sexually driven emotions and/or motivations. Those could be dangerous when being humanities ultimate weapons.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, they are all crazed, homicidal maniacs fueled by hate.... what other than woman could make man could inspire such rage in a man? :laugh: (Fears he might have crossed a line, but is not sure)


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> :stinker: You don't get to decide what he says is or is not bullshit. :laugh:
> 
> Until further notice, marines are half men.


Brother, he's making fun of game company employees who resent being called "trolls" and prefer instead to be called "space marines". He says, "what you want to be half-lobotomized servants of some undead emperor?" and then makes a mention of them being castrated. I'm fairly sure he's taking the piss. Last I checked, the Astartes don't seem like drooling idiots bereft of cognitive thought. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is because you have not met Bob, the two foot tall special needs Rune Priest.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*drumroll*

Touche! :biggrin:


----------



## William Siegfried (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks for answering my question guys XD, now I know. Thanks guys. Wish I had looked up more info into this subject like you guys lol. But seeing a Space Marine trying to make love would be odd and most likely pretty brutal XD.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Brother, he's making fun of game company employees who resent being called "trolls" and prefer instead to be called "space marines". He says, "what you want to be half-lobotomized servants of some undead emperor?" and then makes a mention of them being castrated. I'm fairly sure he's taking the piss. Last I checked, the Astartes don't seem like drooling idiots bereft of cognitive thought. :wink:
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I'm glad it turned out to be a joke.

I don't see how the Emperor couldn't just erase lust from an SM in the same way he did so with fear without having to resort to something as crude as castration.

There was no reason to create superhumans with the need to have sex especially when the only way of creating said superhumans is through a time/resource consuming process.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Can't remember what book it was in but I seem to remember a marine stating that a woman was possibly beautiful before saying something like - if he hadn't under gone all the changes which removed the need for such things - or something like that, think it was a space wolf.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It was the second Space Wolf novel, I believe. The object of Ragnar's attentions is an impressive looking female Inquisitor. During the first couple of novels, you also get tidbits like Ragnar's fading feelings for his childhood love--courtesy of the hypno-indoctrination.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure Loken and whats his face from first heretic described certain women as having the characteristics that normal men would find desirable. 

It was done in a very mechanical, cold way which I liked.


----------



## ArchCardinalThomasXIII (Apr 20, 2011)

From a biological standpoint. Steroid use in humans leads to shrunken testes that can lead to impotence and lack of desire. Multiply that by say 100 with multiple new organs producing stimulating hormones and the role of the testes in producing hormones is rendered redundant, so they shrink and dont work. No more lust as a result and itty bitty genitalia


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

That's based on the assumption that the gene-seed possesses testosterone to begin with or anabolic steroids without the side-effects removed, which is very doable with WH40k tech.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

To what I know...it has never been stated SM's can not sexually reproduce...its been stated their natural desire to have sex is removed....however to reproduce it has not been stated that they can not.

A half SM/Eldar child was born, and is a chapter librarian, that's the latest piece of fluff I know that is relevant to this discussion.


----------



## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Aside from just 'the facts' that support the idea that Space Marines are above sexual urges (hypno-indoctrination, possible castration, etc) I would hazard a guess and say that it would make sense from symbolic standpoint as well. Space Marines are always being shown as incredibly single-minded, pretty much everything they do being dedicated to their cause; tireless in their duty, constantly training, living a life moving from one battlefield to the next, the whole 'Angels of Death' thing. Their existence revolves solely around warfare, even moments not spent in active training. You never hear about Space Marines going to parties, or talk about 'being tired' or 'needing release,' or anything of the sort, because they're above that sort of thing...the same way they're above the need for sex.

Now, The Emperor's Children...those guys, on the other hand, might just go out of their way for that...


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

SonOfStan said:


> Aside from just 'the facts' that support the idea that Space Marines are above sexual urges (hypno-indoctrination, possible castration, etc) I would hazard a guess and say that it would make sense from symbolic standpoint as well. Space Marines are always being shown as incredibly single-minded, pretty much everything they do being dedicated to their cause; tireless in their duty, constantly training, living a life moving from one battlefield to the next, the whole 'Angels of Death' thing. Their existence revolves solely around warfare, even moments not spent in active training. You never hear about Space Marines going to parties, or talk about 'being tired' or 'needing release,' or anything of the sort, because they're above that sort of thing...the same way they're above the need for sex.
> 
> Now, The Emperor's Children...those guys, on the other hand, might just go out of their way for that...


well if you read Horus Rising and some of the other HH books it seems at one time they were able to be more human like but well then the HH kinda changed that


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

They had no reason to be more human like. Their sole purpose was to defend mankind, not to become like them.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They had no reason to be more human like. Their sole purpose was to defend mankind, not to become like them.


true but I think thats why we tend to relate more to the CSM in the fluff because they seem to be more human than the loyalists. Granted SM are badasses but if you take out the human qualities reading a story about them just becomes quite dry, which is why many of the CSM novels and if read other SM novels they give them these qualities so we can relate to them.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> true but I think thats why we tend to relate more to the CSM in the fluff because they seem to be more human than the loyalists. Granted SM are badasses but if you take out the human qualities reading a story about them just becomes quite dry, which is why many of the CSM novels and if read other SM novels they give them these qualities so we can relate to them.


Kinda like if you play a FPS were the main character is a faceless robot, vs a flawed yet human villain. No matter how awesome the faceless hero is you never really feel like anything he is doing has any merit because he is so single minded and perfect that his whole existence seems meaningless. Where no matter how much you hate the villain you get a feeling of the gravity and struggle behind each action, making every victory they have seem all the more important.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Lux said:


> To what I know...it has never been stated SM's can not sexually reproduce...its been stated their natural desire to have sex is removed....however to reproduce it has not been stated that they can not.
> 
> A half SM/Eldar child was born, and is a chapter librarian, that's the latest piece of fluff I know that is relevant to this discussion.


Please that fluff is over a decade old. It's no longer applicable as the universe has changed so much. Tigurius is no longer half eldar, its been retconned out of existence. Xenology also points towards half edar being impossible (they have a completely different DNA structure and a whole host of other issues).


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Rems said:


> Please that fluff is over a decade old. It's no longer applicable as the universe has changed so much. Tigurius is no longer half eldar, its been retconned out of existence. Xenology also points towards half edar being impossible (they have a completely different DNA structure and a whole host of other issues).


I never heard of any fluff pointing to anywone being half eldar... where was that all fluff from


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Rogue Trader era, so very old and now retconned unto oblivion. Back in the day 40k was a lot less serious and ill defined. Much more fantasy in space- thats where the squats come from.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Rems said:


> Rogue Trader era, so very old and now retconned unto oblivion. Back in the day 40k was a lot less serious and ill defined. Much more fantasy in space- thats where the squats come from.


Yeah Ive read some of the Rouge Trader stuff just never came across that one my favorites though were the two chaos books those had some fun reading and gave way more insight about the mythos than any of the stuff we got now, well excluding the HH novels those finally shed some light in areas we have all wondered about


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

_The Lost and the Damned_ and_ Slaves to Darkness_ you mean? Yea those are fantastic source books. _Waaagh! the Orks _and _'Ere We_ Go are also quite awesome.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

never got to read those, but i definately loved the lost and the damned


----------



## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

I doubt a space marine could truly love a woman due to the indoctrination, but im thinking that if that indoctrination were to be undone, possibly by turning to slaanesh worship, the desire side of it would come back and maybe then the love side could return. you know, as long as the soon-to-be Noise marine doesnt OD on space-meth. 
as for his Imperial Jewels, i figure that the medicine of the 41st millenium would fix that right up. im sure its standard procedure for every apothecary to carry a bottle of blue pills _just in case_. so yes, i think it is possible but one would have to turn renegade first and the desire would have to be there.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

William Siegfried said:


> They're still human as well


Define "human".


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Having two hearts makes Dr Who an alien (amongst other things) I think Marines are pretty alien from Humans.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Marines are about as human as eldar. I mean at least eldar obviously still have major structural similarities, while the new meta humans that are space marines have entirely different organs, and internal/external structures. The core genetics of what makes them up maybe still roughly the same, but with all their changes they are definitely more genetically variant then most mutants you will find.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> The core genetics of what makes them up maybe still roughly the same, but with all their changes they are definitely more genetically variant then most mutants you will find.


Yeah, a good example of this is in _The Killing Ground_. Even the *mutant siamese twin astropaths*, the Janiceps, were closer to humanity than Uriel was.


----------



## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> To what I know...it has never been stated SM's can not sexually reproduce...its been stated their natural desire to have sex is removed....however to reproduce it has not been stated that they can not


Not to sure about the ability to reproduce but the desire still seems to be there in the latest SW codex. I cannot remember it exactly but some Wolf Lord triggered the slaughter of his company due to his advances on a woman (turned out to be an Alien or something). Maybe it's a non Codex chapter thing LOL.


----------



## Meshakhad (Apr 30, 2010)

There's mention of Chaos Space Marines committing rape, so I think it's unreasonable to theorize that all Space Marines are castrated. My theory is that sexual desires are suppressed in Space Marines, but exactly how this is done varies by Chapter. Some rely on discipline alone, others practice various forms of castration.


----------



## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

It´s never fully explained is it? 
Well ultimately I don't think it needs to be.

Besides what use does it serve? Just another unnecessary distraction.
You might say they can raise them as recruits but it's just as easy to take some meatheaded tribal or other type of warrior from your recruiting world. No sense in raising the kid if you can just pluck him from there when he's ready.


----------

