# Psykers and Librarians. DIFFERENCE?



## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

How come the Emperor forbids Magnus and his legion from using there psychic abilities, but allows legions to have Librarians who are in a way psykers?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Nikea banned librarians from all the legions. They were re instituted at a latter point because they do good work.


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Why outkast your son for doing great at what you gave him?


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

DeathGuardGarro said:


> Why outkast your son for doing great at what you gave him?


Because the Emperor, for all his power and vision, was kind of a fucking idiot. The Horus Heresy was quintessentially caused by him doing or not doing something.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Because Magnus wasn't just using what the Emperor gave him, he was going much further and dabbling in stuff that he shouldn't have been.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

"Some things are best left undiscovered" - Native American Proverb.

Magnus, for all his learning and wisdom, apparently never came across that passage.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I thought it was the Warp sorcery that Magnus was taking an interest in was banned, not the Librarians and their psychic abilities.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Captain Galus said:


> Because the Emperor, for all his power and vision, was kind of a fucking idiot. The Horus Heresy was quintessentially caused by him doing or not doing something.


clap clap clap 

the Emperor was in many ways a tool, he intended for Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, the throne killed Malcador, I'm guessing it wouldn't have killed Magnus but still would have been really painful for him


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Magnus was a dick. He used his power and his legion's powers against another legion. He basically just ruined it for everyone. 

Then Magnus went back to Prospero and was like... "I'll show those fuckers... what better plan then to just destroy the Imperial Web Way! GENIUS!"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Magnus mest with shit that was beyond his depth and was to arrogant to realize it when everyone around him knew he had not just stepped over the line, but ran across it with his arms flailing all about like some dipshit with his nuts on fire. 

Its something like the one dumbass in the class who won't shut the fuck up and gets something taken away from everyone. Librarians are psykers, wolves probably had special orders from the emperor which let them use them.


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## seb2351 (Oct 11, 2010)

A psyker is a normal human with psyic abilities, a Librarian is a space marine who has passed the tests of purity, strengh of mind and what ever other tests the chapters Librarius sets, who has psyic powers.

I think I read somewhere that despite the Emperor's ruling to dissmantle all Librarians and not employ their powers again, there have been 40k "lawyers" who found loopholes in the ruling and allow space marine chapters to field Librarians again. (Might have been in Hunt for Voldorius, wasn't too long ago I read it)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Emperor wasn't an idiot for banning Magnus and his Legion at Nikea. Hell he should have done it a long time before and was far too late already, by the time of Nikea, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were already far down the road of their damnation. They were all doomed the very moment Magnus made his pact with Tzeentch to save his legion, and then they went and doomed the Emperor and the rest of humanity by destroying the webway. Magnus and his sons were incredibly arrogant, the more you read A Thousand Sons, the more this becomes wholey apparent.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Magnus wasn't really using the gifts the Emperor gave him, he took them and stuck his hand _so_ far into the cookie jar by the time that the Emperor shut him down it was a foregone conclusion that the Thousand Sons were doomed. The more that the Horus Heresy gets fleshed out it kind of becomes apparent that if the Emperor wasn't laying drunk in a kiddie pool back on Terra when his sons were busy getting into trouble then it probably would've been avoided entirely.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

It's another example of the Imperium banning something then changing their mind years later. See Lorgar.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I think it's the Ravenor novels which actually flat-out say that the Imperium flip-flops on a lot of Ecclesiarchal canon. The line is "Yesterday's heresy is today's orthodoxy."


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## seb2351 (Oct 11, 2010)

Dirge Eterna said:


> I think it's the Ravenor novels which actually flat-out say that the Imperium flip-flops on a lot of Ecclesiarchal canon. The line is "Yesterday's heresy is today's orthodoxy."


That's it! Just finished Ravenor so I knew it was recent!


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

What pissed me off about the psyker/librarian ban was the fact that none of the legions were allowed to have librarians (arguably the guys who could use their abilities the most) but any other random asshole who's pockets were deep enough could circumvent this ruling, as we see in _Nemesis_. I mean really...


The guys who are charged with taking over and protecting the galaxy are banned form using psykers but some random rogue trader who had a spare moon could buy himself one


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Captain Galus said:


> Because the Emperor, for all his power and vision, was kind of a fucking idiot. The Horus Heresy was quintessentially caused by him doing or not doing something.


I agree with this, all of the emperors choices need to be explained, because he seems responsible for tipping Lorgar and Magnus to chaos.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

raider1987 said:


> I agree with this, all of the emperors choices need to be explained, because he seems responsible for tipping Lorgar and Magnus to chaos.


The explanations pretty simple really. He created warriors not children. He expected the Primarchs to act like emotionless killing machines and when they didn't he failed to respond correctly, again likely because he was still expecting calm, detached obediance. He expected his sons to behave like him, not like emotional, whiny brats and that was what lead to all his mishandlings of them.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

The Emp was an asshat for not listening to Magnus about Horus. And the 1KSons didn't attack the Space Wolves, the puppies attacked them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> The Emp was an asshat for not listening to Magnus about Horus. And the 1KSons didn't attack the Space Wolves, the puppies attacked them.


lol. I'm not going to debate you. We had a whole thread on this. lol.

Magnus' Thread


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

1. The Emperor said, "No sorcery, boy" (and for good reason). Magnus said, "Yes daddy", while crossing his fingers behind his back.

2. Magnus's powerful spell-warning to the Emperor pissed the Big E off for more than one reason. Yes, it was a clear violation of the mandate the Emperor had given Magnus, and that spurred the immediate reaction: the deployment of the Space Wolves. But more importantly: 

"The consequences of Magnus the Red's warning spell to the Emperor were devastating. The Golden Throne gateway, the Imperial conduit and the alien-built web-tunnels were all both physical and psychic in nature. Wrapped around the physical component was a psychic sheath or shield... for the human-built gateway and conduit, the Emperor himself generated the protective sheath. This psy-shield sealed the web from the warp and its denizens in some inexplicably arcane fashion. *Magnus's spell disrupted this shield causing great rifts to appear in it*."

_HH Collected Visions (Visions of Death) p. 326_

Magnus, though he had good intentions, nearly screwed the Emperor over by almost letting daemons flood through the Imperial Dungeon beneath his Palace. Were it not for brave Custodians and Sisters of Silence, they would've gotten through, and ultimately it was the Emperor (and Malcador, who took the Big E's place when he went to kick Horus's ass) who had to psychically keep the door to the webway shut via the Golden Throne. Of course, no one knew anything about the Emperor's secret project until the very end, so hindsight more than justifies retaliation against Magnus.

Librarians, however, were deemed useful after the end of the Heresy (presumably) and were brought back into the fold. Let's face it: Space Marines are not stupid, and they saw the psychically gifted individuals amongst them. To _not_ use these individuals would be foolish, especially when methods of proper training and control had already been established. 

If the Emperor could still walk and talk, he would probably still disagree. But the vast majority of Librarians are responsible and helpful weapons, and the Emperor is a psyker himself, so perhaps he would change his tone; we'll never know.


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Dam Magnus! Stupid ass


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Council of Nikaea outlawed the use of all non-essential psychic abilties within the Imperium, which was pretty much everything bar navigators and astropaths and the like. Its another example of Imperial hypocrisy, the Emperor outlawing psykers whilst also having his Imperium depend entirely on their abilities.

Anyway, Magnus not only disobeyed this ruling but went one step further and (via the use of psychic powers) critically damaged not only the Golden Throne and Imperial Webway, but also stalled the Emperor's ultimate plans for humanity, thus vindicating the reason for the Ruling of Nikaea in the first place. 

However, even Malcador predicted that there would be several of the Legions Astartes that would disobey or at least stretch the Ruling of Nikaea. The Thousand Sons being only one such Legion. _Garro: Legion of One_ suggests that it was during the Heresy when the Ruling of Nikaea started to be eroded, ultimately to the point of official rejection. 



Captain Galus said:


> Because the Emperor, for all his power and vision, was kind of a fucking idiot. The Horus Heresy was quintessentially caused by him doing or not doing something.


More as a result of Chaos I would argue. Most of the Emperor's decisions can be logically justified within the context.



djinn24 said:


> The Emp was an asshat for not listening to Magnus about Horus.


Only with the advantage of hindsight can we say that. The Emperor was entirely justified in ignoring Magnus' warning and unleashing the Wolves given the context.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I think, again with hindsight, the emperors hands were tied in Nikea. After _Prospero Burns_ he had to make some sort of ruling and banning those who were coming close to abusing their power was the PC thing to do in the short run. 

I think in the medium to long run with _Nemesis_ in mind the emperors decision was less of an outright ban and more like tight regulation whereby psykers and potentially librarians were to become strictly governed and importantly SANCTIONED (presumably where the term sanctioned psyker originated). 

Kind of like the mutant registration act in x-men.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> I think in the medium to long run with _Nemesis_ in mind the emperors decision was less of an outright ban and more like tight regulation whereby psykers and potentially librarians were to become strictly governed and importantly SANCTIONED (presumably where the term sanctioned psyker originated).
> 
> Kind of like the mutant registration act in x-men.


Im not so sure myself. Psykers would have been tightly regulated even pre-Nikaea. 

Nikaea came about as a result of the growing fears, suspicions and sheer opposition to psykers within the Imperium. Mankind had always (and quite rightly) feared their brethern who bore warp potential, the Council of Nikaea was merely the official outpouring of this fear, one that had reached a critical mass and couldn't be ignored any longer.

The Ruling of Nikaea completely outlawed the use of psychic abilites, it didn't just bring in tighter regulations. However there was no practical way in which this Ruling could be universally enforced, hence certain loopholes existing and some just outright ignoring the Ruling.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I am not debating that the Emp did not have a legitimate gripe, but he was still an idiot for not listening to the information given to him. The blood of billions are on his hands because he did not investigate until it was to late.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> I am not debating that the Emp did not have a legitimate gripe, but he was still an idiot for not listening to the information given to him. The blood of billions are on his hands because he did not investigate until it was to late.


Realistically could he have investigated anyway though? Magnus had essentially entombed the Emperor in the Golden Throne with his warning, and Horus had already been corrupted with Isstvan and the Heresy an inevitability. An investigation wasn't physically plausable prior to Isstvan, nor was it even warranted.

And even if the Emperor looked beyond the destruction wrought by Magnus, who would he conclude corrupted, Magnus or Horus? He didn't have a single shred of doubt as to Horus' loyalty (he was utterly wrong, but thats irrelevant), where as Magnus had given him numerous. The warning proved the final piece of evidence needed to conclude that the Crimson King was corrupted and not the Warmaster.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Ont he psychic powers and sorcerer issue, interestingly enough Malcador used sorcery in the new GK Codex to transport Titan into the warp and the Grey Knights are explicitly said to wield forbidden sorceries in battle. I just read the book.

So appearantly the Emperor's trusted right hand can weild sorcery and the super secret awesome chapter he made before the battle of Terra (Going by the GK Codex) can use sorcery too.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not so sure myself. Psykers would have been tightly regulated even pre-Nikaea.
> 
> Nikaea came about as a result of the growing fears, suspicions and sheer opposition to psykers within the Imperium. Mankind had always (and quite rightly) feared their brethern who bore warp potential, the Council of Nikaea was merely the official outpouring of this fear, one that had reached a critical mass and couldn't be ignored any longer.
> 
> The Ruling of Nikaea completely outlawed the use of psychic abilites, it didn't just bring in tighter regulations. However there was no practical way in which this Ruling could be universally enforced, hence certain loopholes existing and some just outright ignoring the Ruling.


I'm not saying it's ostensible purpose was to regulate the use of psykers. But I certainly believe that Malcador and the Emperor knew, as you say, an outright ban would be difficult to maintain and identifying and exploiting loopholes and negotiating for exceptions like in _Nemesis_ would have an effect much more akin to regulating than banning. 

In the case of _Nemesis_ the Emperor's sudo regulation ensures that instead of many psykers with varying degrees of power and control operating with impunity around the galaxy as loose canons we have only a few talented users who are watched very closely by there owners for signs of danger so as to protect their investment. 

In the case of astartes the Emperor's decision, again banned nothing really, but instead assured that the more gaudy and shall we say "public" displays of power that frightened the masses so much were kept to a minimum. 

Again returning to Nikaea I think the decision reached though on the surface said "No more psykers" given that the context and setting was the trial of Magnus the Red then I think the real message was "Magnus tone it down. And everyone else would do well to learn from Magnus's predicament." 

In both cases the Emperors ruling in Nikaea has looked alot more like regulation and a short term break from psykers than an outright ban whilst also appeasing the many detractors of "sorcery".


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> The Emp was an asshat for not listening to Magnus about Horus. And the 1KSons didn't attack the Space Wolves, the puppies attacked them.


In the emps def. Can you imagine how angry he was, here was is greatest work, something that could save humanity, something that you have been working on or planning for most of your life and your son destroys it.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Basically this is a thread about Magnus vs Russ. 
So you have your Thousand sons who support Magnus and your Space Wolves who support Russ. End of.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

cegorach said:


> Basically this is a thread about Magnus vs Russ.
> So you have your Thousand sons who support Magnus and your Space Wolves who support Russ. End of.


Well, sort of I suppose. But it's really more about the validity of the Emperor's actions against Magnus (not about Russ or the Space Wolves) and the seemingly contradictory reinstatement of Librarians.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Unless one of the new HH books says otherwise ( I havent read the new ones) I thought the council of nikea outlawed sorcery not psykers.

In the Index Astartes about Libarians (WD240ish I believe, Ill have to dig it out later) it states that the council of Nikea outlawed sorcery that Magnus had been practicing, but ordered the legions to recruit libarians and psykers from their ranks as well as laying down the roles that were and werent allowed for psychic powers.

Of course Magnus felt that was still abit of a slap in the face......


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

In A Thousand Sons, the Emperor outright bans the use of psychic powers(apart from navigators and astropaths) and orders all legions to cease using Librarians and disolve their Librarius


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

so what changed thier minds? could it be the onslaught of what was coming out of the eye hence the creation of the grey knights, a pure psyker chapter or the fact that they felt that the Marines needed the Librius more then they thought.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

gothik said:


> so what changed thier minds? could it be the onslaught of what was coming out of the eye hence the creation of the grey knights, a pure psyker chapter or the fact that they felt that the Marines needed the Librius more then they thought.


I read this on another thread. I think the guy mentioned that Gman reinstated the librarians after the heresy.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

locustgate said:


> I read this on another thread. I think the guy mentioned that Gman reinstated the librarians after the heresy.


ahhh then that makes some sense


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> I read this on another thread. I think the guy mentioned that Gman reinstated the librarians after the heresy.


Despite that being a logical assumption, I don't believe it was ever mentioned anywhere in the lore, or not that I can remember anyway. We know that the Imperials employed psykers throughout the Heresy though.

_Garro: Legion of One_ suggests that the Heresy itself is what throws everything into flux, including the previously established rulings - including Nikaea. So the Ruling of Nikaea started to be eroded throughout the Heresy, but perhaps it was officially altered/rejected with Guilliman's reforms, who knows.


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