# CSM vs. New Tyranids



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Today I had a most humbling and educational match against the new 'nids. It was a 2000 point game of Capture and Control. My list was rather competitive (though it had testing material like a Defiler and two Reaper ACs, but aside for that it was your usual Undivided asskickery), and so was my opponent's (as it turned out ) who was testing the new Codex. Let me go through what units worth mentioning he had and what did they do.

*Shadow in the Warp:* I'm mentioning this separately because its worth it. Its essentially a 12"s of nerf around any Synapse Creature that makes psionic abilites borderline impossible to get through. Even with Ld10 its hard to roll below it when you have to add up all the three rolls you got, and not just the two highest ones. Not to mention the increased probability of a PotW blowing your head away, plus given the number of creatures that can have this aura of mindfuckery its not too hard to cover the majority of the map with this. *Summary:* if you have this with you its going to make every psyker in 12" look dumb for studying the arcane arts, which might lead to immortality but you'll be fucked if you have to face a space dinosaur.

*Swarmlord:* pure asskickery, he ate two Tzeentch Princes like they were nothing. 4+ isn't easy to survive with, but when you have to reroll them it becomes a laughable attempt to delay the inevitable. And since hes I6, my boys could barely cause a wound or two, which were then immediately redirected to the lone Guard that was escorting the damned thing. Oh and just to keep himself in shape he butchered 5 Tzeentchian Termies (though the 5th was actually the Guard's kill, since the 'lord could only cause 4 wounds out of 5 hits). *Summary:* The Tyranid equivalent of a C'tan in the long run. If you can miraculously blow it away (along with his guards) before it hits you then its your a lucky bastard or your opponent is a hardcore retard.

*Tervigon:* lovely thing, really, it keeps shitting Termagaunts 'till you run out of models. We nicknamed her Mamafex. :grin: Though once the kids are out its best to send them as far as possible so when mom hits the ground in several bits (like she should) you'll be loosing as few Gaunts as possible. I managed to blow up one and boy did that kill a lot of Gaunts.  Oh, and it is best not to underestimate its ranged and close combat capabilities. *Summary:* the Tyranid's Carrier, except here the Mamafex can get things done herself and doesn't need her kids to do the dirty work for her.

*Hive Guard:* bitches who laugh at ridiculous rules such as LoS. With an Assault2 S8 gun. And theres 3 of them in a squad for 150 points. Default win. He had two squads of these guys and I couldn't do shit with them, even though their range is a measly 24", if they keep shooting at you from behind a bloody wall, you can't shoot back! Oh and they have T6 and two Wounds. *Summary:* Tyranid Obliterator, with one gun that fits them all (except for hordes, but for that you have craploads of other stuff).

*Deathleaper:* his Ld-ruining powers couldn't do much (my Princes were dead by the end of Turn 2), but he popped in and wrecked my Defiler in Turn 3 with one bloody shot from behind and there you go, he earned his points and removed my main gun at my home objective. In my turn two Oblits appeared and blew him away with rapid-plasma fire (I had an Icon some 8"s away). *Summary:* very useful against psykers (who are already boned by SitW)

As I've said before I lost, and while I did hold the fort at my home objective, I felt as if I was playing a Last Man Standing type of mission and not a 2000 point game of Capture and Control. The ridiculous upgrades even the lowliest units can have (Gaunts wounding on a 4+ against anything? Overpowered much?), the incredible resilience of their core MCs (T6/W6 is an everyday thing for these guys), and the plain stupid greatness of certain units (no LoS for Hive Guards, Mamafexes shitting Termagaunts like theres no tomorrow) was just too much for my Word Bearers. 
The most frustrating wasn't that I was beaten, but that I have no idea what to do with these guys. My last resort is to bring 3xDreads with Plasma Cannons and Heavy Flamers, 2xVindies with DP and 3xOblits for handling monsters as fast as possible. But even so I don't know what am I going to do when suddenly I'm faced with 50-60-ish Gaunts+Tervigons, supported by 3x3 Hive Guards and 3x2 Carnifexes in say 2000 points. Oh and add a Swarmlord too so I'll know for sure that I'm fucked.

What should I do with these new bugs, fellow heretics?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Khorothis said:


> What should I do with these new bugs, fellow heretics?


Well, firstly you may want to limit your reliance on models with psychic powers. I know flying Tzeentchian Princes with Warptime and Wind of Chaos are the epitome of flying asskickery when they get to cast their powers, but when a fifth of your opponent's models have the ability to screw you over for even attempting to use psychic powers it's probably best to just leave them be.

Also, don't charge the Swarmlord. That's like asking to be kicked between the legs. The Swarmlord lives to ruin the days of expensive models like your Daemon Princes. Steer clear of him with your big guys - drown his ass in cheaper, more expendable models instead. Charge him with a big unit of 'Zerkers after you shoot up his Tyrant Guard and throw fistfulls of dice at him until he dies (not literally unless you want your opponent to deck you).

The Tervigon is annoying, as the last thing anybody needs is for their opponent to be gaining free units, especially scoring ones. Make it dead as quick as you can without putting the rest of your army at risk.

Hive Guard are even more annoying, because they're basically Tyrant Guard with really good guns. My advice would be to either shoot them back or get into combat with 'em and beat them up with power fists.

Deathleaper can be frustrating to deal with. Don't waste time trying to shoot at it unless it's only a couple of inches away and even then, don't rapid fire your weapons. About the only effective way of dealing with this guy are template weapons, weapons that ignore cover and a power fist to the chops.

All in all though, it sounds like you learned a lot. I doubt you'll make the same mistakes a second time.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Deathleaper can be frustrating to deal with. Don't waste time trying to shoot at it unless it's only a couple of inches away and even then, don't rapid fire your weapons. About the only effective way of dealing with this guy are template weapons, weapons that ignore cover and a power fist to the chops.


Sorry I don't know his specific rules, does he get some sort of bonus if you rapid fire? And don't rapid fire weapons _have_ to rapid fire if in rapidfire range?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

clever handle said:


> Sorry I don't know his specific rules, does he get some sort of bonus if you rapid fire? And don't rapid fire weapons _have_ to rapid fire if in rapidfire range?


No, he doesn't get a bonus if you rapid fire and yes, you do have to rapid fire if you're in range. What I meant to say is don't fire rapid fire weapons at Deathleaper, since they prevent you from assaulting that turn, which is really the only means of getting rid of him.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

no. she was just saying better off abusing its 5+ save with flamers (ignores cover) 

one way to deal with the tervigon is hope for killpoints 
for the swarm lord not many things can take it down but remember that its inv save is only in CC and its save and its guards are 3+ so spaming missles and plasma on it brings it down
noise marines seems like a nice way to take em down also ( ap 3 flamer and str 8 ap 3 blast) and heavy 3 bolters should cause lots of wounds also if you REALLY want to counter it (hope his guards dont have whips) is a slanesh lord with daemon weapon

edit: aw ninja corrected lol


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Thanks for the advice guys, its much appriciated. 

My problem is not the theory of how to deal with said problems, but what with? Noise Marines (thanks for the idea flankman! ) look like a good idea, squads of 6-8 (5-6xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster) hiding in cover with Oblits and Lash Princes... I can see that doing well.  Just dakka away and all goes down... in time. :grin: Though maybe I should go with something like 2xLash Princes, 2xVindies, 3xOblits, 4x8NMs w/ Rhinos, and maybe add a Dreadnought or three.  How does that sound?


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

well if you double lash it away from you you just wont have to deal with it...ever (cheese) while you worry about his other units


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

flankman said:


> well if you double lash it away from you you just wont have to deal with it...ever (cheese) while you worry about his other units


Keep in mind that if my opponent DSs Zoanthropes all around my DPs then the Lash is boned. And that 3+ inv. save plus their psychic powers are just ASKING to be deep struck into enemy lines. Not too expensive either.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Khorothis said:


> Keep in mind that if my opponent DSs Zoanthropes all around my DPs then the Lash is boned. And that 3+ inv. save plus their psychic powers are just ASKING to be deep struck into enemy lines. Not too expensive either.


True enough, but you could always just kill the buggers. Shadow in the Warp only has a short range, so you could always just avoid them with your Daemon Princes and Lash until your heart is content. It's certainly one way of keeping the Swarmlord at arm's length until you're ready to take him down on your terms.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Also, remember Tyrant Guard aren't a Retinue. *If* you end up in combat with him, then he can't allocate hits, you do 

Not much of a help considering the Swarmlord kills stuff in CC, but still useful


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

hmm i wonder if abbadon can take em on. too sleepy to math hammer it


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

flankman said:


> hmm i wonder if abbadon can take em on. too sleepy to math hammer it


I can't do the actual equations, but I know how to get a semi-accurate result.

Let's see here...

Both Abaddon and the Swarmlord will strike at the same time.

I'm going to assume that nobody has charged for the sake of my sanity.

Abaddon first: He gets an average of 8 Attacks. He'll hit around four times and wound just as many. 2 wounds will make it through the Swarmlord's silly Invul.

Swarmlord: He'll hit around four times and wound two or three times. After Abaddon's Invul save (that he has to reroll if he passes!) he should be down 2 Wounds.

Combat should then repeat itself. Assuming that all rolls are perfectly average, of course, the Swarmlord _should_ win, though not by much - he'd only have a single Wound left. Again, this doesn't factor in charge bonuses, Abaddon's pea-shooter or any of the Swarmlord's psychic powers or special abilities - one of which the Swarmlord could use to give himself _Preferred Enemy_ or _Furious Charge_, depending on the situation.

Hm, looking at this, I'm now of the opinion that the Swarmlord is _really_ tough - even tougher than I thought.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

He can always Nerve Shock/Paroxysm his opponent too =D 

Nothing is good at combat WS & I.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I can't do the actual equations, but I know how to get a semi-accurate result.
> 
> Let's see here...
> 
> ...


Yup, Abbadon's going to need to roll a six for his extra attacks to have a chance in hell of killing this guy. What about two Khorne DPs working together? That'd be 10 attacks for sure on the charge, along with a decent chance of both units surviving the first round of combat.

As for the rest of the horde, I'm guessing smart Tyranid players will use shadow of the warp as much as they can, plus they've got decent toughness values anyway so I'm guessing my idea of a Nurgle DP with either Nurgle's Rot or Wind of Chaos is out.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Sullen One said:


> Yup, Abbadon's going to need to roll a six for his extra attacks to have a chance in hell of killing this guy. What about two Khorne DPs working together? That'd be 10 attacks for sure on the charge, along with a decent chance of both units surviving the first round of combat.


Yeah, they can probably do fairly well.

The Swarmlord swings away at a Khornate Prince, hits say three times and wounds two to three times as well - 3 Wounds to a Prince after Invul saves since they must re-roll successful ones. The Princes would then make 10 attacks, 5 of which hit, 2.5 of which wound, 1.25 or so of which would get past the Lord's Invulnerable save.

Not too bad.

EDIT: Actually, if the Princes charge it'd be 12 Attacks on the charge since Khornate ones have 5 each base. So that's six hits, three wounds and 1.5 failed saves. Still not enough to even draw the combat.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> EDIT: Actually, if the Princes charge it'd be 12 Attacks on the charge since Khornate ones have 5 each base. So that's six hits, three wounds and 1.5 failed saves. Still not enough to even draw the combat.


12 attacks on the charge, ten standard. Hell, there's got to be something you can do with that.

Add in four squads of Noise marines or chaos marines with missile launchers/autocannons & flamers, say three defilers, or a donkeyload of obliterators, and I'd say you've got a decent chance.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I dont know the Swarmlords stats so i'm curious to see him vs the Nightbringer. I'm assuming the Ctan would win since its crazy OPed in CC but i could be proven wrong.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Seriously, one of the funniest OP I have ever read. Gave me some ideas for my next 5th edition match. Cheers.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

About DPs in CC with the Swarmlord... I had two Tzeentchian DPs with Warptime and WoC charging at the guy from 16", so I could cast Warptime no problem, even with Deathleaper reducing one of my DP's Ld to 8. But then I got into charge range, cast WoC on both and guess what, both scores were way above 10 or 8, though thankfully there were no double ones or sixes. I charged in, one DP with only 2 wounds left (got shot by lots of things, even though I hid both of them behind a small building) died immediately, the other could cause one wound or something like that. In his turn he killed the second DP. Why? Because hes I6. It matters that much. So if its a Swarmlord coming at you, Lash him away as far as possible, because nothing short of a C'tan can best him in close combat.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

JackalMJ said:


> I dont know the Swarmlords stats so i'm curious to see him vs the Nightbringer. I'm assuming the Ctan would win since its crazy OPed in CC but i could be proven wrong.


The Nightbringer would easily win. There's nothing in 40K that he won't beat more often than not in a straight up fight unless you go looking into the Apocalypse and Imperial Armor books and that's probably not going to change until the new Necrons Codex, whenever that'll be.


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## TBCX6628 (Apr 29, 2008)

30 hormagaunts with toxin sacs ftw,


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

TBCX6628 said:


> 30 hormagaunts with toxin sacs ftw,


Scores of nid puppies wounding everything on a 4+? Yes please! 

Unless I have a big template around that is...


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

i just played 3 games with the new dex 2 of wich was the terror (we played planetary empires with strategems ) first game its 1650 blood angels (including a 10man sister squad with flamers +rhino) vs 1500 points of nids i wanted to try flyrant + swarmlod reserve list but the enemy took a virum bomb (stratagem card) that did 5 wounds to my swarmlord (killing his last guard) and leaving him at 2 wounds then shot me with a bunch of assault cannons and missle launchered down my flyrant before turn 2 = ( 


in my second game (1500 IG+witch hunters and 1500 BA) he took the vortex grenade card and one shotted my swarmlord again and my flyrant failed 4/5 cover saves from rockets/lass cannon suprisingly enough i won both games because of outflanking gaunts and deepstriking zoans with alpha warriors guarding them


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Whoa. I didn't realize Planetary Empires had crazy abilities like that... haha. Too bad the Swarmlord kept getting kicked around.  Oh well.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

the way virus bomb works is that you target a spot and its a 12'' radius from that you roll 2d6 per unit minus there T so he rolled 11 - 6=5 = ( luckly i had all my none tyrants in reserve or hed also kill a fair amount of stealers and gaunts but now i know that he already used that stratagem 

@katie:yeah empires is pretty fun. also you can go on the GW site to download the cards and maby use them w/o empires. you will have to ignore the requirements tho (in empires there are special territories that give you bonus's and are prerequisites for certain stratagems)


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

the way virus bomb works is that you target a spot and its a 12'' radius from that you roll 2d6 per unit minus there T so he rolled 11 - 6=5 = ( luckly i had all my none tyrants in reserve or hed also kill a fair amount of stealers and gaunts but now i know that he already used that stratagem 

@katie:yeah empires is pretty fun. also you can go on the GW site to download the cards and maby use them w/o empires. you will have to ignore the requirements tho (in empires there are special territories that give you bonus's and are prerequisites for certain stratagems) oops double post


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I am looking forward to a Nid Match but Im still building my EC army and by the time I finish it it will be almost winter. But the Slannesh theme still seems best to deal with that Nid build. NM with 5 SBs, BM, and Champ with PW will gun down everything the oppent can throw at you, and should something get close you can assault first after still shooting with the assault profiles. Lash Princes are again awsome against Swarmlords. You Lash the monster away, far away. Oblits ofcourse still usefule, and take a LR with Slannesh Termies to drive thru smaller swarms, and charge those dirty Hive Guard in hiding. I see many ways of countering. Cant wait.:biggrin:


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Just yesterday I played against the new nids. No Swarmlord or Deathleaper in sight in my game......thank god :mrgreen: Although my friend, a long time Nid player, wanted to use some 2 Tyrants, full squad of Hive Guard, Zoans in Pod, 2 squads of 20 gaunts, 2 Tervigons, 2 Trygons, and a Trygon Prime. I had brought 2 Lash Princes, 3 squads of Noise Marines all in Rhinos, 10 lesser daemons, Dread with Plasma Cannon and Heavy flamer and 9 Obliterators, a 2,000 pt game.

The idea was to unload all my blast weaponry in the first turn (2 Havoc Launchers, 10 Plasma Cannons, and 2 Blastmasters). Unfortunately it turned out to be a Dawn of War and Annihilation game :cray: but I improvised. 

I ended up loosing, but learning a few good pointers. First, Tyrants overall definitely arent gonna be that worth it in the new 'dex. Without the Invul save, it goes down much faster, same with Trygons. Swarmlord or Tyranid Primes are definitely the way to go. I managed to take out both Tyrants, a Trygon and a Trygon Prime all with Obliterators (except one wound from Noise Marines on a Tyrant). My opponent had never charged a weakened MC into a squad of 3 Obliterators.....he wont ever do it again :mrgreen: 

Also came to find out that the Lash Prince is the only way to go if your wanting DPs. The extra Initiative and the ability to use a psychic power from 24" away, not effected by Shadow of the Warp, is very helpful. I was able to effectively use my Lash everytime, until my DPs got swarmed, but none the less, I had moved the squad of Hive Guard out of its hiding spot and Tyrant out from behind some Trygons to be shot by Obliterators and Noise Marines. 

Unfortunately my Noise Marines werent as effective as I needed them to be, mostly because of dice rolls. 2 of my squads were in Havoc Launchers rhinos with a blastmaster and sonic blasters, while the 3rd squad had a doom siren, sonic blasters and a combi-flamer on the rhino (point filler). The lesser daemons didnt come in the game in time to block the path of an on coming MC towards my Noise Marines. Although at the same time, my friend's Zoans didnt come in until very late. My dread rolled a 1 the turn it came in, luckily enough a tervigon was closest to him, but next turn I rolled a 6 for him, then he was immobilized and plasma cannon destroyed for the rest of the game  Not much from him, but could definitely been more effective. 

Honestly, I had never ran 2 Lash Princes before or 9 obliterators before. Ive at most ran a max of 4 Obliterators and a Lash Prince (a year ago). So it was a test run for me as well and I think 9 Obliterators has to be the way to go. Just having 9 lascannons to dish out wounds to MCs or 9 Plasma cannons to dish out wounds anywhere is so much better than some DP Vindicators. As well the Lash Prince solves a few glaring problems against Nids. First their psychic power can be played out of range of Shadow of the Warp, it can move back MCs, move small buggers together (like we all have done before), and move Hive Guard out of their hiding spots (if not hidden correctly).


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> The Nightbringer would easily win. There's nothing in 40K that he won't beat more often than not in a straight up fight unless you go looking into the Apocalypse and Imperial Armor books and that's probably not going to change until the new Necrons Codex, whenever that'll be.


That really comes down to how well the nid player rolls. I was testing out the swarmlord in a game against my friends Blood Angels. Upon charging an attack bike, another friend walked over and asked what was up. Describing to him the combat that was about to occur and being the snarky bastard that he is, he said, "That doesn't seem fair." He replaced the bike with his nightbringer and told me I was fighting that instead. I agreed mainly out of curiosity.
I rolled well and got a single wound through, one shoting him before he could even fight back.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Lucius Vane said:


> That really comes down to how well the nid player rolls. I was testing out the swarmlord in a game against my friends Blood Angels. Upon charging an attack bike, another friend walked over and asked what was up. Describing to him the combat that was about to occur and being the snarky bastard that he is, he said, "That doesn't seem fair." He replaced the bike with his nightbringer and told me I was fighting that instead. I agreed mainly out of curiosity.
> I rolled well and got a single wound through, one shoting him before he could even fight back.


Yeah, like I said, there's nothing the Nightbringer won't beat *more often than not*.  Not nothing he won't beat period.


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Ah, I seem to have intentionally skipped over the "more often than not." I must have just really wanted to tell my story.  I kinda have an intense hatred of that damn model.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

DarKKKKK said:


> Just yesterday I played against the new nids. No Swarmlord or Deathleaper in sight in my game......thank god :mrgreen: Although my friend, a long time Nid player, wanted to use some 2 Tyrants, full squad of Hive Guard, Zoans in Pod, 2 squads of 20 gaunts, 2 Tervigons, 2 Trygons, and a Trygon Prime. I had brought 2 Lash Princes, 3 squads of Noise Marines all in Rhinos, 10 lesser daemons, Dread with Plasma Cannon and Heavy flamer and 9 Obliterators, a 2,000 pt game.
> 
> The idea was to unload all my blast weaponry in the first turn (2 Havoc Launchers, 10 Plasma Cannons, and 2 Blastmasters). Unfortunately it turned out to be a Dawn of War and Annihilation game :cray: but I improvised.
> 
> ...


That was a great read, thanks! I think I'm going to buy Noise Marines instead of Slaaneshi Bikers, though I'm reluctant to make/buy 5 more Obliterators. I hate the models, they look exactly the same, they're a pain to assemble right, though they are rather easy to paint. I'm going to try a 2xDefiler-3xObliterator and a 2xVindicator-3xObliterator setup to see which one works better. I do hope the former ends up being a better idea overall, I love my Defiler and the second is going to be a Soul Grinder, another badass model.


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