# Apparently Finecast melts in the sun.



## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-leave-finecast-in-sun.html

Has anyone else seen anything like this happen? Does it happen with Forgeworld resin? If that's what happens to finecast in Britain's summer what can expect during a North Queensland summer?

Edit: 200th post! Woohoo!


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow, thats GW for you. I heard it was easy to bend Finecast when warm but thats just to much.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow that's atrocious, I don't think it'd survive a Perth summer where it gets to be 30c in the shade.


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

I really got to warn my buddy, he brings a fellow player from Dallas and it gets up to 100 F easy during the summer... hell it's hitting those temps now.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Wow, you would think GW would have done tolerance tests. I'm concerned that where I live would actually be too much for it.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> Wow, you would think GW would have done tolerance tests. I'm concerned that where I live would actually be too much for it.


It just another thing they don't test, just like how they don't play test codex's.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow living in Phoenix Arizona where its pretty much over a 100 everyday during the summer could be interesting :suicide:


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## Templarbootytime (Apr 19, 2011)

Ha, how lame of GW. Fresno CA here, have not gotten any finecast yet but will get one closer to summer to see how it stands up before throwing money away on them. After our heatwave across America we will see how well GW customer service is when people return the resin slag for a refund, yeah refund not replacement.


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Puahaha....That's awesome. I would try to prove that GW didn't test the material first and throw the models back in their faces and tell them to change it quick!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well where i live we have this year alone 7 days above 40c or 104f, we actually had one day of 45c that is 113f


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


So don't live in places like Germany were AC isn't common, don't transport them in your warm car anywhere [or put them in a hot car] and from the sound of things, don't breathe on them heavy or sagging might occur.

Obviously a little bit of an exaggeration but the point remains that it's an issue. So much for Fine Cast being less like regular resin then.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


Not everyone has air conditioning; and many of us live in hot climates. Hell, here in Sydney (considered one of the more temperate areas of Australia) it can hit 40+ Celsius (that's 104 Farenheit) during the summer. The further North you go, the more regular these temperatures get. It's a pretty major concern. Might be worth considering a 'display fridge'- you know, one of those glass doored fridges shops display drinks in?


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## brother william (Jan 22, 2009)

Man i live in Darwin. If finecast melts count me out


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

> Originally Posted by gen.ahab
> I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


Nice to be optimistic, but definitely not realistic. It costs me a fortune to run my AC daily, as it probobly does others as well, and the AC bill is much more than the worth of the Finecast minis. Not to mention transporting minis to my local GW an hour away for a game, in a hot black GW carrying case, in the stuffy oven that is the trunk of my car. GW can't realistically expect us to put our finecast minis on ice in a mini cooler for their trip to local tournaments. I'm curious to try this now with a piece of Finecast sprue.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


You do realize not everyone has air-conditioner and even if they do, they can't take air-conditioner with there models where ever they go.


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## Cothbarton (Apr 4, 2011)

Ahem.

_If_ you read to the _end_ of the blog he states that the Terminator Librarian stood right next to the other figurine suffered no ill effects.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

I think it was the metal pins he used.

Also, loft conversions like ge described can get to silly temperatures if not properly insulated. Think of your car in fully sunlight fir 6+hours.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

If you leave even plastic mini's in a hot area the same thing will happen...so....meh? Just be a true canadian and have an AC! (we get to turn on one month out of a year if where lucky!)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Azkaellon said:


> If you leave even plastic mini's in a hot area the same thing will happen...so....meh? Just be a true canadian and have an AC! (we get to turn on one month out of a year if where lucky!)


Or live in scotland where you have 'natural' air con all year round


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Cothbarton said:


> _If_ you read to the _end_ of the blog he states that the Terminator Librarian stood right next to the other figurine suffered no ill effects.


We already know that the qualities of the restic vary greatly even within the same cast - some parts of a sprue might bend, while others snap. It should not be surprising that the same inconsistency exists between models.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

so some dude posts some picts of a model thats allegedly warped in the sun and we are supposed to just take it as gospel, could very easy be a staged stunt to bad mouth fine cast, especially as its taken the market by storm.
Also assuming his claims are true we have no idea how or why it happened, or what temps the area it was got to, any gardener with a greenhouse will tell you that stuff under glass gets hot, how hot does your car get when its been in the sun?


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Stuff that can be reshaped in warm water is going to bend in any other form of heat.

So why the big debate?

If it gets moved or put under pressure whilst heated, now this is the area that is going to be interesting. 
Some minis are thicker than others or the weight of itself is transferred directly down through its legs or such so unlikely to be affected. 

Something thin with enough weight transferred indirectly will bend at its stress point if it is warm enough for long enough.

End of story.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

vash you know as well as i do that logic goes out the window when people smell GW conspiracy !


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> so some dude posts some picts of a model thats allegedly warped in the sun and we are supposed to just take it as gospel, could very easy be a staged stunt to bad mouth fine cast, especially as its taken the market by storm.
> Also assuming his claims are true we have no idea how or why it happened, or what temps the area it was got to, any gardener with a greenhouse will tell you that stuff under glass gets hot, how hot does your car get when its been in the sun?


 
^^ This ^^
How do we know he,s just not BS,ing , how credible is the video ( proof its genuine)
GW has garnered alot of bad feeling of late and this kind of stunt ( if it is ) could 
be just another way of trying to poke GW in the eye .


If it was a video showing a finecast survivng heat tests , weights droped on them 
and claiming theyre nigh on indestructable , would everyone be so willing to believe .


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> vash you know as well as i do that logic goes out the window when people smell GW conspiracy !


Or anti-GW conspiracies, it seems.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I agree with B&K & Vash, if it is going to bend in warm water, then direct sunlight magnified through a pane of glass is going to bend it like mental. He also removed some of the resin by pinning it, and he put paper clips or some other metal in it, which will act as a conductor. Moral of the story is, keep your models out of direct sunlight and dont pin the really thin bits. I mean the Termie Librarian was fine, so i really don't see what everyone is bitching about.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I left all my dads beatles 45's on my window sill when i was a youngster, guess how many of them were playable the next day?, fucking Beatles making low quality records!!! im glad john got shot !


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Or live in scotland where you have 'natural' air con all year round


Scotland was bloody HOT these last few days, Got up to almost 25C


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I've made my point on this in the identical thread to this one in General 40K.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> I left all my dads beatles 45's on my window sill when i was a youngster, guess how many of them were playable the next day?, fucking Beatles making low quality records!!! im glad john got shot !


Me too ... only thing I am pissy about is that twat Yoko. Six fucking rounds and not even one stray one for her? WTF!?! 

On topic I am curious about the pin itself. If it is a copper pin, steel pin or what kind it was. I think this would be the most likely culprit. Plastic transfers heat at an incredibly slow rate, copper is good for low heat transference, but steel (even small steel rods like that) are friggin horrible about heat transference. Just my thoughts.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Rathios1337 said:


> Scotland was bloody HOT these last few days, Got up to almost 25C


Speaking from the Netherlands, I wholly agree with you. Apparently though, 25C is not considered 'hot' by most of the rest of the world.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Having looked at the link originally posted, it begs the question: What was wrong in the first place? Gaps opened up in the model? Hasn't this specific hobbiest ever heard of green stuff or millput? And please, don't give me the 'We expected better' trash, because Finecast is a pewter replacement. It's Forgeworld's Resin's ugly newphew. It was _never_ going to be perfect; horrendous mold lines and flash aside.

So perhaps, besides whining, as _gen.ahab _correctly said, keep your models away from strong sunlight and high temperatures, in a room with sufficient ventilation. 

The only problem I can see with this is the transportation of models. Even the most ventilated parts of cars, buses and trains can get quite stuffy - if details of the model warped, or the overall 3-dimensional shape distorted whilst heading to a tournament, or another facility for a match, then it's a problem.

Also, does Finecast still 'melt' when it has layers of primer, paint and varnish on it?


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## Count_the_Seven (May 19, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Or live in scotland where you have 'natural' air con all year round


Hallelujah!

:biggrin:

The tartan temperatures are just right for painting too...

:so_happy:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Rathios1337 said:


> Scotland was bloody HOT these last few days, Got up to almost 25C


HAHAHA - I absolutely rest my case. :grin: 



Shandathe said:


> Apparently though, 25C is not considered 'hot' by most of the rest of the world.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

To be fair this was hinted by GW when in the WD they explained that it takes warm, not hot, water to be able to bend it. Surely a little common sense shows that warm temperatures could have the same effect. 

Simplest thing to do would be to not put them in hot places like on the windowsill, the conservatory, shed or greenhouse you paint in or leave it on hot surfaces like a computer that has been turned on a while.

Car travel should not really be a problem. You could easily stuff the case in the passengers floor space and open the window whilst driving.

Common sense rules OK. OK?

P.S. If I ever accidentally melt a 40K model then I will keep it, buy a new one and keep that one in good condition, and then use the melted guy to represent someone who has just been attacked by Gift of Chaos or Boon of Mutation.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

I also want to point out, it was just the leg that broke, and as it clearly said, he had drilled it out. Of course it's going to weaken. You do that to a plastic version that'll more than likely happen. Today's temperatures reached 25 Degrees C where I am, so, if you're in a well insulated house, it's going to be hotter, in the sun, even worse.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Marneus Calgar said:


> so, if you're in a well insulated house, it's going to be hotter, in the sun, even worse.


 
Really sorry - buildings surveyor here - if you are in a well insulated house you will be COOLER than in a badly insulated house.

Insulation works both ways, so in the winter it prevents warm air from leaving the house and in the summer it prevents warm air from entering the house.

:biggrin:


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Really sorry - buildings surveyor here - if you are in a well insulated house you will be COOLER than in a badly insulated house.
> 
> Insulation works both ways, so in the winter it prevents warm air from leaving the house and in the summer it prevents warm air from entering the house.
> 
> :biggrin:


Yep, in really hot weather they actually advise you to keep the windows shut when it's hottest outside to keep the house cooler.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> You do realize not everyone has air-conditioner and even if they do, they can't take air-conditioner with there models where ever they go.


The majority of people do, and if they don't, I'm assuming most peoples homes aren't over 120 degrees (random number). Just don't leave it out in direct sunlight; ambient temperature shouldn't effect it too much.

I would be interested to see what the approximate melting point is for these models.



Angelus Censura said:


> Nice to be optimistic, but definitely not realistic. It costs me a fortune to run my AC daily, as it probobly does others as well, and the AC bill is much more than the worth of the Finecast minis. *Not to mention transporting minis to my local GW an hour away for a game, in a hot black GW carrying case, in the stuffy oven that is the trunk of my car. *GW can't realistically expect us to put our finecast minis on ice in a mini cooler for their trip to local tournaments. I'm curious to try this now with a piece of Finecast sprue.


Just keep it out of the fucking sunlight or *don't leave it in a hot car. * Put it in the cab and roll the windows down, if need be. It will not get hot enough to melt it. How hot does your house get, honestly? Probably not hot enough to melt the models without direct sunlight.

EDIT: Most people in my area have some form of AC, in any case.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

If any of you actually read further than the initial blog entry you would see that he pinned the legs because he felt they were unable to comfortably support the models weight. Added to this he had an issue with an air bubble that caused one of the legs to snap. I am a seasoned resin modeler...in these circumstances I would've pinned the model too.

At face value it is easy to dismiss this guys rantings as simply those of a GW hater but I searched deeper into his blogspot and to be honest he seems like a fairly open-minded and balanced individual...he had nothing but good things to say about his finecast Gyrocopter.

The intriguing bit for me was the (uncorroborated) assertion that GW Leamington Spa's Finecast window display went all 'wicked witch of the West meets a bucket of water'.

Like any of us, if we have a bad experience with a product we are naturally going to be pissed off. This guy looks like he had problems with this particular model from the off which would have only compounded his frustration.

The bottom line is GW allegedly touted Finecast as the best quality miniatures in the world and they are not. 

From a personal perspective I am very disappointed with the quality of these miniatures. I bought the Terminator Librarian last week and I was going to start work on it today. Closer inspection revealed that the two halves of the mould were slightly mis-aligned at least partially, resulting in a mis-cast on the left leg and right arm. 



















Then of course there is the general deformity and a strange 'slaggy' discolouration on the edge of the shoulder guard.




























I was as open minded as anybody could be about the new range...my opinion has lowered significantly. I have been buying FW resin kits for years and have never come across the kind of poor quality we are seeing here. Granted they don't produce on such a mass scale but if GW wanted a feel good factor from the Finecast release I can't help but feel that they should have done more testing and research before going ahead with the new production system. It is flawed without doubt and it feels like they have adopted a Microsoft approach to this product - release it broken and fix it as we go along. I have no doubt GW will replace or refund the model when I take it back but that isn't the point is it?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The majority of people do, and if .


Im sorry - that is simply wrong.

I have inspected 4,358 houses and flats in the last 5 years.

Want to know how many had air con?


(checks database, god its huge now)


12.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Cypher871 said:


> I was as open minded as anybody could be about the new range...my opinion has lowered significantly. I have been buying FW resin kits for years and have never come across the kind of poor quality we are seeing here. Granted they don't produce on such a mass scale but if GW wanted a feel good factor from the Finecast release I can't help but feel that they should have done more testing and research before going ahead with the new production system. It is flawed without doubt and it feels like they have adopted a Microsoft approach to this product - release it broken and fix it as we go along. I have no doubt GW will replace or refund the model when I take it back but that isn't the point is it?


And the reason why you didnt take it back and get a non-mis-cast one was?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Im sorry - that is simply wrong.
> 
> I have inspected 4,358 houses and flats in the last 5 years.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I should have said that the majority of people in my area do.

Gets very, very warm in the summers.

In any case, I don't think that the melting point would be so low as to cause problems for MOST people as long as they don't leave these in direct sunlight.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Maidel said:


> And the reason why you didnt take it back and get a non-mis-cast one was?


I simply have not yet had the time.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Sorry, I should have said that the majority of people in my area do.
> 
> Gets very, very warm in the summers.


Fair enough. It gets very warm here when we are working and then decideds to piss down at weekends.

god forbid you take a week off on holiday because it will friggin snow then :grin:



Cypher871 said:


> I simply have not yet had the time.


Fair enough.

But why are you bashing them so much? There have always been miscasts and misboxings, and this is a brand new product and thus will not be optimised yet, but you are implying that all finecast is crap and not well made


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Maidel said:


> And the reason why you didnt take it back and get a non-mis-cast one was?


Absolutely, I had to take one of my Nurgle Daemon Princes back (miscast details on the arm) and they were happy to exchange it on the spot. 

One thing to bear in mind with Finecast is this: this is the first time anyone has ever made resin miniatures on this scale (scale as in production volume, not as in 28mm) and there _will_ be teething problems; looks like consistency of quality is turning out to be the biggie right now. For those that don't know, I now work for GW - actually on the floor where they make the Finecast minis - and believe me we're aware of the issues and are working on them.




And on the rather off-topic air-conditioning debate - it's common in America, not common in other places. But then again we in the UK think 25C is hot, so what do we know? :grin:


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Maidel said:


> And the reason why you didnt take it back and get a non-mis-cast one was?


Same friggin reason I haven't. It's a 45 minute drive to my closest GW centre to begin with. And this implies parking somewhere outside of the main city centre, or your pants get pulled down over a minimum one hour of parking in that region. 

Don't assume it's that easy for everybody to just go back to that store like nothing happened. It's not like a car runs on water and if you are unfortunate enough to live in the countryside instead of in a big city close to a GW hobby centre, you are boned when you open up your blister to find a miscast. 

As a customer, you have every right to be pissed off when you are given a miscast, so asking that question is quite condescending... 

@cypher871

I have had nearly identical issues with the very same model (my pictures float around in another thread), so it might not just be a coincidence or plain bad luck. :angry:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

elmir said:


> Same friggin reason I haven't. It's a 45 minute drive to my closest GW centre to begin with. And this implies parking somewhere outside of the main city centre, or your pants get pulled down over a minimum one hour of parking in that region.


Have you tried calling them?




> As a customer, you have every right to be pissed off when you are given a miscast, so asking that question is quite condescending...


Yes - annoyed and a bit pissed off - no problem. Going so far as to design your own 'finecast' screwed up logo, making 4+ photos and writing a huge post - thats not mildly pissed off - that just seems an attempt to discredit GW/ have WAY too much time on your hands.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Have you tried calling them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have called them. They said I either had to turn it in on the next visit, or send it back to GW. Unfortunaly, that last one takes at least €6,90 for packaging where I live, so that sucks quite badly for a single model of €20... I can understand completely that they won't just send over a replacement without any proof of it being damaged/incomplete/miscast. However, that still doesn't change that fact that you are left boned as a customer. 

The logo is a bit OTT (although I did get a laugh out of it...  ) But posting this up isn't a way to discredit GW. How else are you going to show ppl how bad the product was that you bought? Not everybody who complains (and in this case... has every right to complain) is trying to discredit GW and ergo a GW-hatemonger. 

I have been painting and collecting miniatures from various manufactures and producers now for over 15 years. And the issues I have seen on my finecast miscast were the WORST ever, even compared to other "smalltime" manufacturers. 

Cypher187 is 100% right in saying that these kinds of farces are inexcusable for a company that makes the (selfproclaimed) "best miniatures in the world". If you are going to release a new product like that, miscasts are going to happen (especially on the scale that GW was doing a release), miscasts and mishaps will happen. However, this isn't just a minor miscast. This is pure lack of quality control... not even on a monday morning could this sort of cast be acceptable. 
There are some ppl out there who will bash GW for everything they do. I don't understand those ppl either... why put in the effort to do that when you can just leave it be. The complete opposite of the spectrum, is excusing every thing they get wrong and thinking that GW has the midas touch and is the best company in the whole wide world. 

Point is, constantly bashing GW when they do the most minor of things wrong isn't healthy. Sticking your head in the sand when things aren't nearly as good as they were made out to be (by the advertisement), is equally silly.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

elmir said:


> I have called them. They said I either had to turn it in on the next visit, or send it back to GW. Unfortunaly, that last one takes at least €6,90 for packaging where I live, so that sucks quite badly for a single model of €20... I can understand completely that they won't just send over a replacement without any proof of it being damaged/incomplete/miscast. However, that still doesn't change that fact that you are left boned as a customer.


Ah well, Ive heard calling them worked for some people at some points. Was worth a suggestion.



> The logo is a bit OTT (although I did get a laugh out of it...  ) But posting this up isn't a way to discredit GW. How else are you going to show ppl how bad the product was that you bought? Not everybody who complains (and in this case... has every right to complain) is trying to discredit GW and ergo a GW-hatemonger.


The logo is what really got me - thats time and effort to make a point (and it did make me smile as well, im not a heartless bastard really)

And making a point on this website isnt actually doing anything other than simply making a point to other gamers which cant be taken any other way that trying to influence how they think, thus discrediting GW - Am I really taking it that far out of context?

And I did edit my post because I felt it was a little 'ott', but you had already quoted it.



> I have been painting and collecting miniatures from various manufactures and producers now for over 15 years. And the issues I have seen on my finecast miscast were the WORST ever, even compared to other "smalltime" manufacturers.


You should have seen the models I started with back in the late 80's - those models were only as good as the miscasts when they were cast right! 



> Cypher187 is 100% right in saying that these kinds of farces are inexcusable for a company that makes the (selfproclaimed) "best miniatures in the world". If you are going to release a new product like that, miscasts are going to happen (especially on the scale that GW was doing a release), miscasts and mishaps will happen. However, this isn't just a minor miscast. This is pure lack of quality control... not even on a monday morning could this sort of cast be acceptable.


I agree that GW made this rod for its own back by using those words - they shouldnt have said it.

but what I would say is that THOUSANDS of kits have been sold and I have seen 4 threads on this subject - that to me doesnt scream a huge amount of lack of quality control to me.



> The complete opposite of the spectrum, is excusing every thing they get wrong and thinking that GW has the midas touch and is the best company in the whole wide world.


Well part of that is that people LIKE what they do, and will excuse a few things because of that. Another part of that is that some of the things they 'get wrong' arent in fact wrong and need to be explained. And the final part of that is that when things 'kick off' it polarises people into 'hate' and 'love' and if you were a neutral then you will fall one way or the other during those periods.


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## MindMazer (Jun 4, 2011)

This is one time where Im glad I live in Buffalo, NY.
I will never have to worry about this.
brrrrrr...


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Yes - annoyed and a bit pissed off - no problem. Going so far as to design your own 'finecast' screwed up logo, making 4+ photos and writing a huge post - thats not mildly pissed off - that just seems an attempt to discredit GW/ have WAY too much time on your hands.


I didn't make the logo, I found it floating around the web but thought it rather apt at this particular point in time and as the saying goes ' a picture paints a thousand words'.

The photo's are my way of pointing out the flaws on _this_ particular model which is of course based on personal experience and not the heresay of someone else.

As to your personal and misinformed opinion that I wish to discredit GW, don't be so soft; I own thousands of pounds worth of GW models...a lifetime of collecting, playing their games and more man-hours devoted to this hobby than I care to think about...I have no more wish to discredit them than I want to shoot myself in the head. That does not mean that I want or expect poor quality products - indeed quite the opposite.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Cypher871 said:


> As to your personal and misinformed opinion that I wish to discredit GW, don't be so soft; I own thousands of pounds worth of GW models...a lifetime of collecting, playing their games and more man-hours devoted to this hobby than I care to think about...I have no more wish to discredit them than I want to shoot myself in the head. That does not mean that I want or expect poor quality products - indeed quite the opposite.


You see - to me - thats just a contradiction in its basest sense.

If you dont want to discredit them - dont post it up on a public forum and moan about it - sort it out with them directly and get on with it.

When I had a problem with my car I didnt complain about it on forums, I took it to a garage and got it fixed. Turned out it was their fault (door locks didnt work properly) - but that WILL happen, when things are made by the thousand (or more) then mistakes and errors will creep in.

I just dont get the obsession about publically moaning about it.

But maybe thats just me, perhaps sometimes I should un-stick my upper lip and join the whiney queue once in a while - but I think hell on earth would need to start for that to happen.:wink:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

elmir said:


> Same friggin reason I haven't. It's a 45 minute drive to my closest GW centre to begin with. And this implies parking somewhere outside of the main city centre, or your pants get pulled down over a minimum one hour of parking in that region.


Same here. Fortunately I have a friend that works downtown, so he'll pick-up Coteaz for me. I did tell him to open to box in the store to make sure there was no miscast. I'm a bit 50-50 on this one. On one hand, GW is making great R&D and might be getting rid of metal, both of which they should be commended for. On the other hand, if they had anything close to real competition in the world of miniature wargaming, they would have been more careful in bringing to to the market. When launching something like this, you should make sure you have 100% quality for the first 6 months and then you can let go a bit once the reputation is intalled.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> On the other hand, if they had anything close to real competition in the world of miniature wargaming, they would have been more careful in bringing to to the market. When launching something like this, you should make sure you have 100% quality for the first 6 months and then you can let go a bit once the reputation is intalled.
> 
> Phil


That is a statement I can agree with.


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## daubers (Apr 28, 2011)

boreas said:


> ]When launching something like this, you should make sure you have 100% quality for the first 6 months and then you can let go a bit once the reputation is intalled.
> 
> Phil


I don't think that is actually, even remotely possible in any manufacturing type situation. 

I work in very small scale, high value manufacturing (think making maybe 20 of these things a month, but each one is in the £10's of k kind of rage). When you do quality control, it's hard to spot every problem on every system. It takes time, and time *is* money. To get that 100% success rate, you either have to hire more staff (increasing the overhead in producing the item), slow down production of the items (again increasing overhead as staff still need to be paid each month and you weaken your bargaining position with your supply chain, again increasing cost) or accept a certain amount of failure. Most manufacture seems to have a 1 to 3% failure rate (excluding serious defects that may not come to light until after the thing has been in the hands of the end user for some time, that's really hard to test for unless you design your products 5 years in advance of going to market, losing your market share completely). That may not seem a lot, but now the law of big numbers comes in (and the fact that people who are happy are quiet)

Let's say GW said a 3% failure rate was acceptable for the first batch, in order to bring the product to market at a sensitive time when it would make more impact (say while doing a pricing restructure). If they produce a thousand models, that means maybe 30 are going to be beyond saving. If they sell all thousand models then 97% of their customers will be relativley quiet (you won't really hear from them at all) while that last 3% who ended up with the ones missed by the QC checks will be very noisey indeed. That seems to magnify the problem in peoples minds and hence you get a knock in your reputation. However, bringing the product to market at that time may either have helped distract customers from other changes, or helped bring in more customers at a time when the business needs the extra cashflow. This problem magnifies when you talk of production runs of 10's of thousands (with a run of 10 thousand you'd have 300 bad models, with 100 thousand you'd have 3000 and so on). However, the idea should be that the first few batches would be small runs of a few thousands, and with each iteration of production you can learn from the bad batches and reduce that failure rate (either by improving the manufacturing process now that the product is making you money or by improving the QC processes at the same time).

Of course, if you would like a 100% pristine never any problem manufacturing process, I'm sure someone would quite happily add an extra £xx(x?) on to each unit sold to provide for that. 

The world isn't perfect, sometimes you just have to make the best you can from what you have


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## ElciD (May 27, 2011)

When i think about how hot it is in my local GW Store all the minis should be melting these days. We actually have some hot days here in the north of germany. Imagine all the funny faces when customers open the clams back home...
Well, of course i read the thread, and i really like all the passion that rages on, u can tell that everyone cares about the hobby. 
As somebody who workes at retail i can only give u the advice to check the minis right after u bought them, not when ur back on your village, miles away from the GW stores. Especially with all the rumors about the sometimes poor quali of the minis to be heard everywhere. 

And, just for the record: I dont own a AC. And nobody i know does. And me too thinks that 25 to 30 °C is quite hot xD


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I do not have AC in my Jeep (condenser went bad and I cut all that shit out of the engine compartment and gained more HP) nor do I have an air conditioner in any of my windows .... no no no I have CA (Central Air). Fuck a bunch of being hot in the summer time too damn humid around here for that noise. I honestly am not sure what to make of all the hubbub around this melting plastic shit. I am not saying anyone is lying but when it comes to the INTERNET I believe half of what I see and nothing of what I hear, until it happens to one of mine I am reserving judgment on the GW resin compound.


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## Overbear (May 10, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> I really don't see this being an issue unless you are a complete twit and don't leave it out in the sun. Otherwise, keep them in the shade and in an air-conditioned room. Boom, problem solved.


Yea that is practical for those of us that build models for display :no:

I am going to run some tests, I will take some sprues and set them out in the sun for 10, 20, 30, and 60 minutes and see what happens.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Overbear said:


> Yea that is practical for those of us that build models for display :no:
> 
> I am going to run some tests, I will take some sprues and set them out in the sun for 10, 20, 30, and 60 minutes and see what happens.


no need i can answer that for you, they will get warm just like any other material, how often do you leave you display models out in the sun for an hour?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Yep, I'll speak out against GW's blunders every time I can, but this thing about finecast and heat seems OTT. I can't think of any situation where I'd leave my minis in the sun or other heat source. Now, maybe some halogen heating in some display cases, but hey, who really has one of those? One in a million gamers?

Phil


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## dlakertor (Mar 18, 2008)

To be honest I don't see this being that much of a problem unless you ignore the fact that they will bend in the sun, this can happen to forgeworld models too. For example, the Heirophant, my friend purchased it and left it in the sun, the legs bent, resulting in a very odd looking model.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, the FW hierophant has pretty weak legs to start with. My friend had heaps of trouble with the legs bending under the model's pressure, even in a cold-ish basement (think 20 celsius). Same with his marauder's wings bending down (under which he glued thin metal plates to solve the problem). But yeah FW resin can be pretty soft.

Phil


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## Overbear (May 10, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> no need i can answer that for you, they will get warm just like any other material, how often do you leave you display models out in the sun for an hour?



Depending on what the event is, like a county fair they are typically in indirect sunlight in a non A/C building for 2 weeks in a display case where it gets to 80 or so all day long.

So if in fact the new finecast fails in heat/sun, then it is useless to people like me.

Also that is not true, the 'plastic' GW items do not get soft in sunlight, even direct sunlight, for many hours, however what they don't like is confined, heated places (like display cases) so usually if its a long term display, then you need a fan to keep air moving in the case.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Overbear said:


> Depending on what the event is, like a county fair they are typically in indirect sunlight in a non A/C building for 2 weeks in a display case where it gets to 80 or so all day long.


You have to admit, for the 'general' purchaser of GW products thats not really a 'common' place for minatures to end up...


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

> Also that is not true, the 'plastic' GW items do not get soft in sunlight, even direct sunlight, for many hours, however what they don't like is confined, heated places (like display cases) so usually if its a long term display, then you need a fan to keep air moving in the case.


It takes direct flame-strength heat to melt or even soften the proper plastics. Those suckers have a melting point in the hundreds of degrees. The glue and paint soften before the figures do. That's the only real reason to keep air moving in display cases that house plastics :wink:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> It takes direct flame-strength heat to melt or even soften the proper plastics.


 
Or white spirit


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

boreas said:


> Yep, I'll speak out against GW's blunders every time I can, but this thing about finecast and heat seems OTT. I can't think of any situation where I'd leave my minis in the sun or other heat source.


That's because you live in Canada. In Australia, every single model in the country is going to be exposed to these sorts of temperatures, every year.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

AlexHolker said:


> That's because you live in Canada. In Australia, every single model in the country is going to be exposed to these sorts of temperatures, every year.


Fair point :wink:

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

AlexHolker said:


> That's because you live in Canada. In Australia, every single model in the country is going to be exposed to these sorts of temperatures, every year.


Temperature, possibly, direct sunlight, no.

If you have a model left under a slanted roof window in direct sunlight at mid day/afternoon (when the sun is highest) then you might as well hold a magnifying glass over it in the garden.

Like that the model is experiencing much higher temperatures than the ambient temperature. As you well know the temperature in the shade is much 'lower' than in the sun, and that's magnified under glass.

So, your temperatures may be higher, but sensible treatment of your models is consistent world wide.


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Like that the model is experiencing much higher temperatures than the ambient temperature. As you well know the temperature in the shade is much 'lower' than in the sun, and that's magnified under glass.


I know that. Australian summers get that hot _in the shade_.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

AlexHolker said:


> I know that. Australian summers get that hot _in the shade_.


Well you should be in the pool or surfing or shoving shrimps on the BBQ, not playing wargames.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Keep in mind that the resin was modified with a pin and also was placed in a weight bearing position for a long period of time. But the Libby with a fairly thin staff that was next to the Gandelf model was just fine and dandy.


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## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

I can't believe how big this thread has gotten. Anyway, after reading everyone's comments I'm not terribly worried about resin melting. It would appear that in this particular instance the deformity is a result of the owner's modifications of the mini and having left it in direct sunlight.

Even though I live in a particularly hot part of Australia I despise air conditioning, nevertheless my models are kept in a coolish dark room, with no windows. During summer there will be fans going all the time so I don't think any of my gear will melt. 

Besides that, considering the current pricing structures being used by GW and it's subsidiaries, the only purchases of new GW stuff for me will be from Forgeworld; whose minis seem to have stood the test of time.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd just like to point out that fans won't keep your minis cool, unless you're planning on spraying them with water?

I'm not too worried about finecast stuff melting but to be honest 'Do not leave in direct sunlight' is something I'm more used to reading on aerosols or food, not wargamng miniatures.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

My concern is I often leave minis in a car in direct sunlight in cases as storage. If this is going to happen, I won't have that flexibility anymore.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Creon said:


> My concern is I often leave minis in a car in direct sunlight in cases as storage. If this is going to happen, I won't have that flexibility anymore.


Well then - the minatures arent in direct sunlight then...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Well then - the minatures arent in direct sunlight then...


Seeing as most carrying cases are black this is probably worse since the closed nature of the carrying case with the heat absorbtion of the color black would turn those cases into resin-wrecking ovens. If the cases are a nice bright color like white or yellow it may not be so bad but it's a risk I wouldn't be willing to run personally.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

leave them in the car trunk, easey!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> Seeing as most carrying cases are black this is probably worse since the closed nature of the carrying case with the heat absorbtion of the color black would turn those cases into resin-wrecking ovens. If the cases are a nice bright color like white or yellow it may not be so bad but it's a risk I wouldn't be willing to run personally.


Its not quite the same. The direct sunlight on the model while it is bearing its own weight is what causes the collapse. Unless you models in your cases are carrying their own weight (which would be bloody odd in a case) then there is utterly no problem.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Its not quite the same. The direct sunlight on the model while it is bearing its own weight is what causes the collapse. Unless you models in your cases are carrying their own weight (which would be bloody odd in a case) then there is utterly no problem.


Winged models [like the rumored soon to be released Bloodthirster] and models with oddly shaped sections [like the Hyrda] would still be at risk since they can't really be layed on their sides and even then that doesn't add enough support to the bits that stick up. And there are plenty of models that would still be supporting some weight via arms or legs because of the poses the models are in [think of the models that hold banners, swords pointing away from the model or are running for some good examples of this].

Additionally sunlight on it's own can't melt resin or you'd be at risk of having it melt no matter what time of the year it was. Heat is what causes resin to deform, sunlight through a pane of glass just makes the model heat up faster. So a hot carrying case in your car, even with the support of foam [even the custom plucked out foam] would still be an issue.

So black carrying case + hot car + resin models = bad. 

Actually hot car + resin = bad too. I've seen the results of a model sitting in a shaded portion of a car still melt. Granted it was an older Forgeworld flyer model but the point remains that resin doesn't like the heat.


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## dlakertor (Mar 18, 2008)

I say we just purchase the cheapest finecast model, then put it in the sunlight for a while to see what happens or even in storage cases to experiment the effects of heat.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> Actually hot car + resin = bad too. I've seen the results of a model sitting in a shaded portion of a car still melt. Granted it was an older Forgeworld flyer model but the point remains that resin doesn't like the heat.


Well then - dont make it out like its a 'new' issue - if forgeworld resin already melts in your car - then, frankly, dont be surprised if the new stuff does....


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Well then - dont make it out like its a 'new' issue - if forgeworld resin already melts in your car - then, frankly, dont be surprised if the new stuff does....


First it wasn't my model or car. I was just there to see the results. 

Secondly, Finecast is supposed to be a different chemical composition than Forgeworld's resin and is supposed to be the best model based resin available. That implies a certian level of quality and durability that we're not finding at the moment.

Lastly I'm not making anything out to be a new issue, I'm contributing advice regarding storage of resin models so that people don't lose money because the model goes soft.

On another topic apparently what we should be looking at isn't the model's melting point but it's 'Vicat softening point'. It's the point at which a material that has no defined melting point [like plastics and some casting resins] begin to lose structural integrity and happens at much lower temps than the point where the material begins to turn into a liquid.

So [purely as an example] if Finecast melts at 88-94C then the softening point would be lower. As low as 50C [Vicat is largely affected by the materials ability to transfer heat, the density and other factors. All numbers here where used as an example].

It's completely possible that Finecast's process hasn't been 100% perfected yet and the Vicat softening point might vary wildly from model batch to model batch.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> First it wasn't my model or car. I was just there to see the results.


I didnt think it was your video. But on the second point - you actually saw the model, or just the video?



> Secondly, Finecast is supposed to be a different chemical composition than Forgeworld's resin and is supposed to be the best model based resin available. That implies a certian level of quality and durability that we're not finding at the moment.


No it doesnt. All the adverts say its the highest quality casting and the most detail - they say nothing about its 'durability to heat' - its never once mentioned.

And that aside - its STILL resin. You can buy extremely high quality wood, very strong, very long lasting - but its STILL going to burn (in some rare wood cases, after a very long time...)



> Lastly I'm not making anything out to be a new issue, I'm contributing advice regarding storage of resin models so that people don't lose money because the model goes soft.


The thing is - anyone who already lives in a 'hot' country will already know this if they have any resin models - so it should be common sense already.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> I didnt think it was your video. But on the second point - you actually saw the model, or just the video?


Local gamer at my FLGS. 



Maidel said:


> No it doesnt. All the adverts say its the highest quality casting and the most detail - they say nothing about its 'durability to heat' - its never once mentioned.
> 
> And that aside - its STILL resin. You can buy extremely high quality wood, very strong, very long lasting - but its STILL going to burn (in some rare wood cases, after a very long time...)


I said it was implied by their claims. It's a trap that's easy to fall into. Advertisements can be double-edged swords..

I understand it's still resin, but with no information on this stuff it's really hard to tell what kind of tolerances we're dealing with. Does it soften at 120F or 140F? Honestly we just need more data to really make a determination on this. Heck brands of super glue may be a factor on the material depending on it's chemical composition it may effect the way the model handles being warmed up.




Maidel said:


> The thing is - anyone who already lives in a 'hot' country will already know this if they have any resin models - so it should be common sense already.


First rule of common sense: it's not common. 

On a more serious note I think part of the problem is that everyone makes mistakes and assumptions. We assume because this is the best resin material we've ever had [or so GW has claimed] that it's not as likely to fail. Additionally we make mistakes, like leaving models in direct sunlight in a warm room. I'm not pinning the blame on anyone, I'm just saying there is more to this than just "the resin melts".


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> It just another thing they don't test, just like how they don't play test codex's.


TESTING COSTS MONEY.

Seriously I've never seen someone try to save money by replacing the iron in their diet with bullets in the foot.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> Local gamer at my FLGS.


Is he known for being a whiner who throws his toys out of the pram all the time?



> I said it was implied by their claims. It's a trap that's easy to fall into. Advertisements can be double-edged swords..


Its a bloody big leap you've taken then. Its like saying BMW claim they make the worlds highest quality cars - and then complaining when it breaks down as you drive across the sahara desert.




> I understand it's still resin, but with no information on this stuff it's really hard to tell what kind of tolerances we're dealing with. Does it soften at 120F or 140F? Honestly we just need more data to really make a determination on this. Heck brands of super glue may be a factor on the material depending on it's chemical composition it may effect the way the model handles being warmed up.


I dont mean to be funny - but why the heck should they give out that information? They've explicitly told you that the resin softens in WARM water - so the clues in the advertisng they did in white dwarf - dont want the model to melt - dont get it hotter than 'warm water'.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Is he known for being a whiner who throws his toys out of the pram all the time?


Nope. Good guy who was more of a modeller than a gamer.



Maidel said:


> Its a bloody big leap you've taken then. Its like saying BMW claim they make the worlds highest quality cars - and then complaining when it breaks down as you drive across the sahara desert.


I was just saying that it can cause some unfortunate assumptions. Words like "best" get thrown around too much in my opinion and tend to create assumptions in the customer's mind. It's an advertising trick that people still fall for in droves.



Maidel said:


> I dont mean to be funny - but why the heck should they give out that information? They've explicitly told you that the resin softens in WARM water - so the clues in the advertisng they did in white dwarf - dont want the model to melt - dont get it hotter than 'warm water'.


I never said they should do anything. I'm just stating that there isn't enough data available to draw signifigant conclusions.

"Warm" water can generally be anywhere from 26C to 48C [or even warmer]. It's a very vague statement to make since the properties of "warm" are determined by the individual. Needless to say I don't buy a lot of metal models [save for the Sisters I own, but that's because they only exist in metal], and don't really plan on buying a lot of Finecast models. I do however like to be aware of potential issues since if/when I work/play with Finecast models I know how to care for the models properly and handle any issues that might creep up.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> I was just saying that it can cause some unfortunate assumptions. Words like "best" get thrown around too much in my opinion and tend to create assumptions in the customer's mind. It's an advertising trick that people still fall for in droves.


Well thats peoples own fault for assuming too much - you know that Assume makes an Ass out of u and me... 

But seriously - if someone says they make the 'best soap' - you will rightly assume it has to be the best at cleaning. If someone says they make the best Steel, then you rightly assume it has to be the strongest around. If someone says they make the best models around - having a high tolerance to heat is a LONG way down the list of assumptions that you make.



> "Warm" water can generally be anywhere from 26C to 48C [or even warmer]. It's a very vague statement to make since the properties of "warm" are determined by the individual. Needless to say I don't buy a lot of metal models [save for the Sisters I own, but that's because they only exist in metal], and don't really plan on buying a lot of Finecast models. I do however like to be aware of potential issues since if/when I work/play with Finecast models I know how to care for the models properly and handle any issues that might creep up.


Anything less than about 35 really cant be considered 'warm' because anything that is much colder than body temperature will feel 'cold' to the touch.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Well thats peoples own fault for assuming too much - you know that Assume makes an Ass out of u and me...
> 
> But seriously - if someone says they make the 'best soap' - you will rightly assume it has to be the best at cleaning. If someone says they make the best Steel, then you rightly assume it has to be the strongest around. If someone says they make the best models around - having a high tolerance to heat is a LONG way down the list of assumptions that you make.
> 
> ...


Eh, fair enough. 

Anyways, I think we can safely assume that models should be kept away from temperatures over 37C as a precaution. I definitely wouldn't take them out to my FLGS if it was 48C+ because we play in a garage that has no form of AC in it [the store is a house that's been converted into a mix between a comic shop and tabletop gaming store [both paper and pencil and minatures]. Nice place but the gaming area is a bit cramped if you have more than ten people playing.]. But that's just me.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zion said:


> I definitely wouldn't take them out to my FLGS if it was 48C+ because we play in a garage that has no form of AC.


You have got to be ****ing kidding me?

48???

The hottest Ive ever been in was a very dry 42 in dubai, and that was only managable for 5 minutes at a time and I had to go back into the air con.

I would genuinely be dead. I put the aircon in my car on when the temperature goes above 20.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> You have got to be ****ing kidding me?
> 
> 48???
> 
> ...


I used to live in Arizona and they're known for having heat waves that get upwards to 54C. 

48C sneaks around here every once in a while but never for very long. There are places where it gets worse and you eventually adjust to it [mostly because you need to]. It's fun when it's above 54C during the day then drops to 23C at night and you feel like you're freezing because of the temprature shift.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here in sask the yearly high is around 30-35C.


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## Humie Stomper (Apr 29, 2011)

Thank God i Live in Northern Ireland then, where 30°C is a mythical number never mind anything higher LOL.


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

Not everyone has an ac. but yeah for some of us it wont even be an issue. i live in Chicago so aside from a few days a year it doesn't get that hot.


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## deathwatch27 (Dec 30, 2009)

In the uk its bearly over double figures and its ment to be our summer


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

deathwatch27 said:


> In the uk its bearly over double figures and its ment to be our summer


actually its still spring, summer does not start until june 21st, we are all getting ahead of ourselves because its been very hot for spring this year.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> actually its still spring, summer does not start until june 21st, we are all getting ahead of ourselves because its been very hot for spring this year.


 whys mid-summers day the 24th june then?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

arlins said:


> whys mid-summers day the 24th june then?


thats mearly a name, its actually the feast of john the baptist, the summer solstice is 21st june which is the longest day and the official begging of summer as in one of the four seasons.


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## Overbear (May 10, 2011)

Ok round one of controlled tests are done...Kind of. I will have to redo them all as the results are in question due to a timer, weather, and camera fail 

I used a bit of sprue 6" long, one from each kind of plastic/resin (AoBR, Finecast, dropship, old style round/2nd gen plastic, and 1st gen green plastic) each attached to a 2x4 with 4" hanging off the end openly. Each 6" long sprue bit was miked to be within .05 +/- of each other in thickness (that took a lot of hunting out old bits in my stuff trust me). Glued to the end of each is a .5oz weight.

This is where things went bad. First my video camera failed due to batteries (note: recharge before starting), then a timer failed, then we got overcast clouds. So, I will be redoing this experiment once the sun is out and I can control things a bit more.

The goal, is to see what kinds of plastic/resin bend in the sunlight more/less than the others. Spaced out times of 10, 20, 30, 60, 90, 120 minutes in direct sunlight. 

Of note, I did find, even cold the most 'flex' was visible in the finecast, with second being the AoBR plastic. Least cold flex belonged to the 2nd gen plastic.


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