# Sticky  Professionals Entering Monthly Competitions



## Dave T Hobbit

Some Heretics have indicated they do not feel professional miniature painters should enter the Painting Deathmatch.

I can understand their stance. However, I can also think of reasons why adding an entry restriction might be unfair.

The same possible issues apply to both the Conversion Deathmatch and HOES, so the fairest approach is to have a single rule about people entering the monthly competitions if they work in the same area.

The final decision on whether they are allowed or not will, obviously, be mine.

However the competitions are for you, the members, so I want to know what seems fair to you.

I might not agree with people, but I will consider everyone's comments and make a decision this month.

EDIT: After reviewing the discussion, professionals are permitted to enter the Painting and Conversion Deathmatches, and HOES, but voters are permitted to cinsider their profession when deciding on the "best" entry.


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## Dave T Hobbit

To divide my Mod hat from my thoughts as a member, I am making a separate post.

Fundamentally, I don't see a difference in skill level between someone who could sell their product and someone who does. So, professionals don't have an unfair advantage.


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## iamtheeviltwin

Speaking as someone who reviews and votes in the competitions each month.

Some of our "amateurs" paint and convert at levels equal and above many of the professionals that I have seen. If the "pros" were winning the competitions month after month I might consider it an issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I see no issue personally.


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## elmir

I personally don't see the problem with it either. Many of the best work out there, was not done on a commission basis. 

What difference does being a commission painter really make? I do commissions myself. The amount of work you get to do that really allows you to push your skills to the next level, is usually very minimal (client's budget usually is the hamstring). A really serious enthousiast probably is able to do more "cutting edge" work to improve his skillevel than a commission painter (who's main skill usually lies in being able to do the job FAST if he wants to make any money).


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## Tha Tall One

Well, nobody should be excluded from entering a competition, whether you are a professional or not. There are some excellent painters who are not professionals, and who are sometimes equal or better than some pro's. You should not be discriminated against if you've chosen to make this hobby we all love your job.
The reason you choose to join however, I think is more important. If you're a pro and join the competition with the intention of gaining some quick and easy rep, to show off how much better you are than some amateurs, and to keep others from winning, I don't think that's within the spirit of these competitions. If you are so much better than all other participants, there's no sport in flaunting that each month. As far as I've seen, that's not what has happened. 
I think joining the competition as a pro can be a way of saying 'Hey guys, you're awesome. I feel challenged by your skills.'
However, for amateurs that don't have a high skill level such as myself, it raises the bar significantly and might dissuade some people from entering. So while I don't think anyone should be forbidden from entering, none should feel discouraged either. I think the winners should have the courtesy to take a step back sometimes, and see what the lesser painters come up with. But as I've said, I don't see any of these problems happening here.


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## Khorne's Fist

@iamtheeviltwin, They are not winning every month because none have entered before. 

Personally, I am fully aware of my limitations as a mini painter, and that there are members on here much better than me. However there have been times when I felt I could match them, and entered the comp at the time. But I know I could never match a pro like we're seeing entering now, so what's the point entering if it's pretty much a foregone conclusion before a photo is eve posted? I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who would be put off entering in the future.


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## madfly-art

Hi guys, and gals

I enter competitions to win titles and to compete with others, as their spirit intended
I enter Heresy Online competitions as Heresy Online member, as their spirit intended

It's not my responsibility to choose my opponents, it's their responsibility to do the best they can. Let me give You an example. I'm currently painting 6-8 very high quality entries for Hussar 2014 in which at least 3 of top 10 painters in the world are entering. I'm at number 296. Should i forgo the preparations? No, now i have 3 of the top 10 painters to try to beat. 
You should do the same and don't judge Your work against other 'amateurs', judge them against 'pros'.

Yes i do take money for my work as a miniature painter, and there are many painters who earn in this respect but don't paint on such high level as mine. And there are probably from 0 to 295 painters who do the same that are much better than me.

Competition is a competition. Rules are rules.


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## SwedeMarine

I fully understand that there should not be any limitation on who can enter the monthly painting competition. However just as Khornes Fist pointed out this is the first time that it has been done. at least to my knowledge. I enter the competition every month if i can to challenge myself to get better and because i feel like a little friendly competition s just the right way to motivate me to push myself that extra mile. Mind you it sometimes works it sometimes doesnt thats how things go. And i'm never upset about losing because in the end i gain something out of the experience. Losing to Nordicus or DaisyDuke or any of the other guys that we have is not an issue because i know that if i work hard enough i will be able to eventually get on par with their abilities and be able to beat them. But i also know that i will never get on equal footing with someone who paints miniatures for a living. Most of us do this as a hobby not as a major source of income. There is no denying the skill that is displayed by many of our commission painters and painting services but i just don't feel that they should be entering a competition aimed at the "hobbyist". If there was to be a competition for those who do commissions separate from the monthly deathmatch then that would be fine by me. In the end I will accept whatever the outcome of this discussion is regardless of how i feel about it. I enjoy being a member of this community and that fact that these types of discussions are around are part of keep me here.


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## Ravion

I would like to know who these so called professionals are or who are people claiming is a professional. Other than that I don't have a problem going up against pros in these tournies. Just because he's a pro doesn't mean that he has an advantage against us. It's up to the forum members on whether they like the finished product and if it deserves their vote.


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## Mossy Toes

I have no problem with anybody who wants to compete in this forum's competitions. If AD-B were to compete in HOES, would we kick him out? I have no qualms if somebody who is very good at painting who is a member of the Heresy community joins such a competition--sure, it means my slight chances of winning are rendered even more non-existent, but to the deserving, and to those who have put the time into their painting & honed their talent, should go the plaudits.

How would we define a "pro," anyways? If SilverTabby, longtime board resident who won a Silver Golden Daemon, tried to enter, would we kick her out?

I absolutely don't mind having greater examples of excellent painting to inspire me to aspire to. People who don't want to vote for pros, however they define a pro, don't have to; I maintain that the rules are fine as is.

(_Edit_: huh, this came out sounding a bit stronger than I meant it to. I mean, I guess it's all true, but I really meant to come across in a much more "meh, I don't mind if anybody wants to compete" sort of tone. Oops...)


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## Drohar

It is a competition and you see not so good (like me ) and really good like Nordicus :good:entering almost every month. I am not discouraged against enterig even though they are a lot better than me. I want to see if my work matches their work. 

There is not much if any difference in the quality with pros and amateurs. Like this months top three (my selections) were all neck and neck and the rest of the field close by. 

Honestly if Thierry Henry or Ronaldo would want to compete in football against us would you ban him from entering or be honoured by his presence and try to beat him.


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## ntaw

Everyone can and should be able to enter, I've no problem throwing in my models against someone that makes money for it. It's all part of the fun for me, the only thing I'd get pissed about is a 'better than you' attitude from anyone which I haven't seen.


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## Nordicus

I see no problem with it myself - It's a painting competition after all, and everyone is welcome.


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## morfangdakka

It is a painting competition it is designed to put ones skills up against another. It is for fun and for bragging rights nothing more there is no prize money. I don't see a problem with pro's entering. I like competition I know I would never win a painting one but it would be fun to see where my skills compare to people that get paid. 

As stated there are many non paid painter that paint as good or better than the pro's. If people don't want to enter because they aren't going to beat the pro's then they missed the point of entering. It is to have fun and show off your work that is why the competition was started.


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## Moriouce

I might not be at any level of winning but if I can get a vote or two I'm more than happy!


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## raven_jim

I prefer having professionals, I got into the hobby to paint. Seeing these models that are vastly superior to the ones I paint pushes me into learning new skills, as an amateur I like the opportunity to swing with the big dogs


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

I don't have a problem with it. It's just more glory if you manage to beat people who do this for commission.

It's not like there's an actually prize for this contest other than a virtual cookie. I see it as more a way to find the motivation to finish projects and post up my finished work.


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## DeathKlokk

It depends on what the intent of the contest is. If we are intending to find the best painters on the site with the contest then yes the pros should be allowed. If we are trying to encourage members to participate in a friendly competition that would be completely blown out of the water by the pros then maybe not. Perhaps we could have a tiered competition with Amateur and Advanced levels or something?

Full disclosure: I have won two Golden Demons and a Silver and was a full-time professional painter for about 5 years. I have yet to enter the comps here because of time constraints. With more high-level entries I may pit myself against them though.


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## ntaw

:laugh: well shit. Never thought of it like that before, with one pro comes more. At the same time though, having a tiered system would be about as belittling as being blown out of the water in a 'for fun' competition by a Golden Demon winner. I would still rather lose to a pro than be top of the amateurs (and even that's a bit lofty for my skills), but I'm the type of person that plays games on the hardest setting first for the challenge. Not everyone enjoys that level of preceived difficulty, I just play the game against myself and let the AI be the judge of my skills; much like I will keep entering competitions here as time allows, compete against my last entry and gague my improvements against those of the other contestants. Even being considered for a vote in that arena is an almost humbling thought.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

DeathKlokk said:


> Full disclosure: I have won two Golden Demons and a Silver and was a full-time professional painter for about 5 years. I have yet to enter the comps here because of time constraints. With more high-level entries I may pit myself against them though.


Wow, I didn't know that, good work mate. Anywhere we can view those entries?


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## Tawa

DeathKlokk said:


> Full disclosure: I have won two Golden Demons and a Silver and was a full-time professional painter for about 5 years. I have yet to enter the comps here because of time constraints. With more high-level entries I may pit myself against them though.


Nice.... :good:


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## Old Man78

I have yet to take part in any these monthly challenges and really only start voting recently, I see no problem with "pros" taking part as a lot of non pro heresy members often wipe the floor with them from what I can see, at the end of the day it is a friendly competition, let us keep it that way


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## DeathKlokk

Thanks, Tawa and RedCorsair. 

I agree Oldman. The fact that people get paid to paint doesn't make them that much better to make it unfair IMHO. 

Ntaw, keep entering the comps, regardless of the level of competition. You don't get better by competing against shitty competition. You'll improve over time. I've been painting minis for longer than a lot of you guys have been alive and most of that time was without the tremendous amount of information at hand that there is nowadays. I still learn something new with almost every miniature I do. 

I don't have a ton of stuff online anymore but my CMoN page is Here for those interested.


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## ntaw

Oh man, if I had to learn how I paint _without_ the internet I would have taken eons to improve. Even just my interactions on this site have been invaluable to my growing skill and confidence. 

You have some awesome work posted up on that site DeathKlokk, I particularly like the Banshees and Death Jester.


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## Kreuger

I haven't partaken of any of the comps because of time, but I do like looking to see what cool things everyone what is doing.

Before commenting on this I re-read the rules for the conversion death match. I think the inestimable Mr. Klokk has his finger on the real question, "What is the intent of these competitions?"

Clearly, the simplest interpretation of the intent is to encourage forum participation. And perhaps it's fair to say the secondary goal is to encourage and recognize the growing skills in our community. So, is that end served better by allowing ringers/pros to compete with the hobbyists?

It seems to me that as long as the pros (whoever they are) aren't let loose to run roughshod over everyone else then their skills and contributions add luster to the competition.

Based on the comp rules this isn't necessarily a problem.



from the rules;1208913 said:


> 11. Winners from the previous month are able to participate in the next month's Deathmatch, but are not eligible to win in consecutive months.


Unless there is a revolving group of pros trading off victories there would seem to be enough opportunities for the hobbyists to compete as well. And besides, would it be worth the accolades for a pro to best the hobbyist competition every month? If things were that static then perhaps these rules should be reevaluated again.


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## Ring Master "Honka"

I will admit at times i have thought that there is no point in me entering because of pros. but that means not entering now because i need to get better, sometimes i paint something and think "hey yeah that's good" then i see what awesome things people create on here and realise shit i need to do better. so i go into the painting section and lookup any hints and tips from the pros then proceed to try and better myself. 



then i make a horrible mess and drink a lot.... or the other way round


if i got 1 or 2 votes in the painting challenge. i would appreciate it more if i got them when there are pros entering because im on my way to matching up. if i won because all the other entries had decided to drink there paints rather then use them it wouldn't feel so good.

if we remove pro painters from the challenges then we are penalising people because they are good which is pointless


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## Tawa

DeathKlokk said:


> I don't have a ton of stuff online anymore but my CMoN page is Here for those interested.


That standard bearer makes me want to do an "Imperial" Blood Axe army now...... :good:


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## Dave T Hobbit

Kreuger said:


> I think the inestimable Mr. Klokk has his finger on the real question, "What is the intent of these competitions?"
> 
> Clearly, the simplest interpretation of the intent is to encourage forum participation. And perhaps it's fair to say the secondary goal is to encourage and recognize the growing skills in our community.


My intent in running them is to give Heretics an opportunity to have fun.

For me, they aren't about who is objectively best. They are about having an opportunity to push yourself to your limits in search of a better model or story. To say I think this is good work and am not afraid to put it to the test.

The rules of each competition are equally broad on what is good work: the Painting Deathmatch includes 'improvement' as a possible criteria, so someone could chose to vote for an entrant because they did wet blending for the first time; the Conversion Deathmatch awards equal honour to having a cool idea as it does to skill.


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## Belovoj

simple opinion from me: the better my opponents in competitions are, the more pleasure from entering and competing them I have. there will always be a difference between skill levels and IMHO that's the point of competition - to try to get better then everybody else  it would be too easy if everybody was the same skill level at the beginning


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## Dave T Hobbit

Thank you to everyone who commented, and for the polite manner in which you expressed your opinions.

Well, I think everyone who wanted to has had time to comment, so I am making a decision.

Spending time doing something makes you better at it, whether or not you are being paid.

In addition, any definition of professional is always going to be an arbitrary line somewhere between never having painted a miniature for another person and only painting miniatures in exchange for money.

So, the monthly deathmatches will remain open to members who might count as professionals in that aspect of the hobby, but voters can choose to take the career into account if they feel it is relevant.


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## Moriouce

Good call Dave!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Yeah, definitely the way to go.


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