# Grey Knight FAQ out



## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

Get it here.

They also updated the main FAQ, which is Here.

I'm surprised they didn't mention cleansing flame. Do you roll a single d6 and all models are effected, or do you roll a d6 for each model in the assault.

Things that stand out for me. Scoring dreadnoughts, falchions only give +1A, no shunt move scout moves.

From the main BRB FAQ, phsycic powers stack, which effects GK, which means you have cast hammer hand multiple times and have it stack.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Few interesting calls, most of which were expected.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Praise be to Synack and GW for getting this up, now we might get some peace!


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

oh well, the dreadnought ruleing will upset all those that claim dreads cant score under grand strategy, or that units that combat squad still gain the grand stratagy rule.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Viscount Vash said:


> Praise be to Synack and GW for getting this up, now we might get some peace!


You hope... but i bet there will be a complaint thread somewhere about the FAQ.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

oh im sure there will be, people will complane about scoreing dreads and the abilty to combat squad and still keep the grand stratagy rule


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Mostly disappointed about the falchions really. They really aren't worth the point cost associated with them if it's only 1 attack sadly. 

Good clarification on what counts as a demon and it's funny that they refer to the "fluffy" bit of text in a weapon description to make out wether or not it's a plasma weapon.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This was somewhat interesting. Mandrakes are daemons now? Makes sense but did they really need to make them any worse? :laugh:


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

Obs are daemons too 

On a side note, I did actually mail the Whats New Today guys with a list of questions 2 weeks ago, which I got from bolter and chainsword, as is was pretty complete. Most of the questions are addressed in the FAQ, so I like to think I had something to do with it.

They didn't address cleansing flame though, so I mailed them again just now and asked. They same guy replied saying that it's a 4+ for each model, not a single 4+.

Just thought I would say.


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Not to bad. I am sure there will be more issues but for now i am happy

Edit. Do nades and Hammer hand stack?


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## Akhara'Keth (Nov 20, 2010)

So, nearly all Tau Weapons count as Plasma now? WTF???


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## Irbian (Sep 2, 2010)

Disappointed about the falchions.

The dreadnought hammer finally makes some sense. if you want S10, you´ll have to take it.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Some of those are annoying. Like the combat squads getting Grand Strategy benefits but I am glad that the silly Dreadknight is now only S6. My poor captain would like to return from the dead several times now it no longer causes ID!


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Some of those are annoying. Like the combat squads getting Grand Strategy benefits but I am glad that the silly Dreadknight is now only S6. My poor captain would like to return from the dead several times now it no longer causes ID!


You do realise they're still force weapons? Now just need to take a test to ID you


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

And with the rule book FAQ about psykers, you CAN stack hammerhand.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Synack said:


> You do realise they're still force weapons? Now just need to take a test to ID you


I know. But it still is funny now though that the DK comes with DCCW but can't actually use them.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

yeahl, a typical matt ward screw up giving a unit a weapon that it cant use


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

A shockingly reasonable FAQ. Really. I didn't like the coteaz decision, but totally expected it. I'm actually glad now I can drop Draigo and his boyz from my inquisition list and be legal! I truly expected all the other clarifications in this list, they went fairly reasonably. I expected shunt to be declined for scout. I was actually surprised by the Anvil decision, though. Nice to see most of the arguments stilled.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

That's a long FAQ for a new Codex... And I don't think they actually addressed ALL issues, even if they got most of the main ones.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

fynn said:


> And with the rule book FAQ about psykers, you CAN stack hammerhand.


But Cannot cast it yourself more than once a turn.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm actually quite happy with this FAQ and it addressed many of my personal questions. Thank god as I have a game tomorrow.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Typical GW, releasing this the day after the tournament I was in. XD


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I can't sigh hard enough.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> But Cannot cast it yourself more than once a turn.


but then if you have a squad of termies, with Grand master and a libby attacthed, then it can be cast 3 times, once by the squad, once by the Libby and once by the grand master


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

HA, Falchions get +2A. Win.


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

fynn said:


> but then if you have a squad of termies, with Grand master and a libby attacthed, then it can be cast 3 times, once by the squad, once by the Libby and once by the grand master


I'm looking at a squad of purifiers with halberds, a libby, brotherhood champ and techmarine for S8 I6 with rerolls to hit on the charge ^.^


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> HA, Falchions get +2A. Win.


Surely you mean, *don't get*?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Synack said:


> Surely you mean, *don't get*?


(puts on glasses) Oh fudge, my bad. lol Next time I will make sure I can read before I.... well..... read. :laugh:


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

The "what is a Daemon?" section is interesting.

I never realised that Obis and Mandrakes were daemons.


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## callred (Jun 24, 2008)

and crowe still not IC so running around friendless still


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

HAHA - so, basically everything was RAW appart from the dreadknight and cortez.

Im so happy about the falcions.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Maidel said:


> HAHA - so, basically everything was RAW appart from the dreadknight and cortez.
> 
> Im so happy about the falcions.


Yeah... this means you're very unlikely to ever bump into them unless maybe on paladins or terminators. And even then, the halbard are arguably better at a cheaper point cost... Go figure. :headbutt:

Other then that, it's very much RAW / as you would assume it was if you didn't have direct head-rectum contact... No true shockers here, except maybe the inclusion of obliterators and mandrakes into the daemon list. Oh and how heavily the plasma syphon can bone a tau force.


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

Not exactly sure but what does it mean by Terminator squads can embark in a Chimera? Can they start the game in them and purchase them?

I'm also still curious on how the Turbo Penetrator round or whatever round it is that adds extra penetration works on the monolith, I guess that will just wait till the Necron codex comes out.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Except taking falchions on power armoured troops increases their base attacks with force weapons by 100% for 10 points without sacrificing anything. A cheap upgrade if you ask me.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

elmir said:


> Yeah... this means you're very unlikely to ever bump into them unless maybe on paladins or terminators. And even then, the halbard are arguably better at a cheaper point cost... Go figure. :headbutt:


Sorry - I mean I was happy from a personal perspective - because I had argued so long and hard that it was that way around that I would have looked like a bit of a prat if I had been wrong. :biggrin:


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Terminators can embark on a Chimera: If your force has henchmen, and they bought a Dedicated Transport: chimera, and aren't in it, Terminators can board. Up to 6. That is the meaning of that ruling. That thing's pretty roomy, it seems!


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

Gotcha, thanks Creon, not all here today and didn't read correctly. Its glaringly obvious now. Its the exact same as the Daemonhunters Codex.

I just noticed this as well.

Q: Can a unit that ‘moves as jump infantry’ deep strike?
A: Yes.

With the FAQ the Dreadknight with teleporter 'moves like jump infantry'.

So could we potentially deep strike our Dreadknights now?


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't even understand why the chimera had to be faq'ed tbh... Rhino's and razorbacks are the only vehicles that specificly say terminators cannot enter it. Otherwise it's the old "takes up 2 models worth of space" thing. Oh well... guess it's worth a faq if some ppl were confused by it.


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Those Chimeras are going to be cramped with a terminator squad in it.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Flash said:


> Except taking falchions on power armoured troops increases their base attacks with force weapons by 100% for 10 points without sacrificing anything. A cheap upgrade if you ask me.


Are you serious? :shok:

At 24 points, you have a purifier... at 29 points, you have a purifier wih a falchion upgrade... halbard comes out as the clear winner, unless you were planning on running a squad of termies/pala's/maybe even purifiers with a libby. 

A strike squad/purgation/interceptor grey knight should NEVER EVER, EVER take a falchion, not even if it were +2A. They are a firepower unit, that can (just barely) sweep a unit up in melee after shooting it. But that's besides the point. This topic is about the faq


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

How many attacks the Culexus gets when close to GKs?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I would say one for every entity that makes a roll. Therefore, one per IC, MC, DN, Vehicle, or squad. I think it's a whirlwind of pain.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Q: How do you work out whether a psyker is affected
by the Psi-shock special rule on a mindstrike missile or
a psyk-out bomb? (57, 58)
A: Any psyker under the template will be effected by
Psi-shock.

Does this affect GKs as well? If I hit a group of GKs do all hit take perils? If so that would mean the Culexus gets 1 shot per GK model within 12". or is my logic flawed here?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

As far as I can tell, the entire squad of GKs counts as a single Psyker. So 1 Peril per squad, 1 shot per squad, and so on.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Answer is given in the "brotherhood of psykers" rule. p21 of the codex.

The unit counts as a single psyker. A GK IC is psyker as well. 

As for mindstrike missiles, the same rule states that any attack directed at a psyker (in this case the psyshock) is auto directed at the justicar of the squad. So I think he gets the perils of the warp. Or a random model in case there is no justicar left. That is on top of any damage caused by the actual blast. If there is a GK IC in the unit, I think he'll take a seperate perils test too in case he finds himself touched by the template (if you aply this faq to that situation at least).


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

I had a thought the other day. If a Gk squad takes a wound from a nemesis weapon. Does the whole squad take a ld test and if failed, removed, since it counts as a single psyker?


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> Wounds caused by a Purgation Squad after using
> their Astral Aim psychic power get an unmodifiable 4+
> cover save. Can these be taken against Wounds caused
> by incinerators? (p29)
> A: No, as they ignore cover saves


Interesting against certain armies a small squad of purgation hiding behind a wall out of sight guarding a objective could be pretty awesome.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Synack said:


> I had a thought the other day. If a Gk squad takes a wound from a nemesis weapon. Does the whole squad take a ld test and if failed, removed, since it counts as a single psyker?


I don't think it does. As it's an attack specificly against a psyker, and that is always resolved against the justicar or random model if no justicar is present. 

However... Does that mean that in a GK vs GK fight, you'll cause a possible extra wound in case you do any damage to eachother in close combat? Technically, the model you cause the unsaved wound to would be dead... however, since the whole squad counts as a single psyker, do they still have to take a Ld test to avoid taking another casualty? icknose:


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> As far as I can tell, the entire squad of GKs counts as a single Psyker. So 1 Peril per squad, 1 shot per squad, and so on.


Then why did that put that in the FAQ? It's pretty obvious as the rule states any psyker hit takes perils. That question is completely unnecessary and shouldn't have been in the FAQ in the first place as it's just a copy paste of the rule from the codex.


How do psyk-out grenades work? Do they only reduce the I of the justicar to I?

If I hit 5 GKs with a mind strike wouldn't the justicar take 5 perils instead of just 1?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

No, since the Codex says they are treated as a single psyker. pg 21, GK codex. It then goes on to say if the unit takes a perils, it hits the justicar/knight or a random figure. So they are 1 psyker, no matter what the actual number of figures, and only one figure is affected by things that affect psykers.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

So that means only the Justicar is affected by psyk-out grenades reducing his I to 1 or a random member if he is not alive. That seems a bit silly to me....


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> So that means only the Justicar is affected by psyk-out grenades reducing his I to 1 or a random member if he is not alive. That seems a bit silly to me....


No, I think the whole squad is reduced to I1. After all, the psykout grenade is not AN ATTACK that can be resolved against a specific psyker. It just states that psykers and demons are I1. Since the whole squad counts as a single psyker, I would guess the whole squad is affected too. It's a "debuff" sort of speak, so it's not covered in that specific rule (other then then the fact that the whole squad is counted as a single psyker, so the whole squad should be affected). 


Botherhood of psykers only clarifies rules for leadership tests and for attacks that need to be resolved against a model. It doesn't cover debuffs. In fact, psykouts against GKs are even more deadly now that the initiative order of halbards has been clarified.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

elmir said:


> Are you serious? :shok:
> 
> At 24 points, you have a purifier... at 29 points, you have a purifier wih a falchion upgrade... halbard comes out as the clear winner, unless you were planning on running a squad of termies/pala's/maybe even purifiers with a libby.
> 
> A strike squad/purgation/interceptor grey knight should NEVER EVER, EVER take a falchion, not even if it were +2A. They are a firepower unit, that can (just barely) sweep a unit up in melee after shooting it. But that's besides the point. This topic is about the faq


Lol to be honest.

10 Grey Knights with swords locked in an assault. Maximum damage potential is 10 wounds plus instant death kills.

10 Grey Knights with falchions locked in an assault. Maximum damage potential is 20 wounds plus instant death kills.

A 100% increase in base melee damage potential for a 50% increase in cost is pretty good IMO.

Terminators only pay 5 points because they're only increasing base attacks by 50% and sacrificing the +1 invulnerable save.

Halberds only increase chance to cause damage, not damage output. Falchions would always be more expensive no matter what bonuses were being lost.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

When I saw the ruling on the Plasma Syphon, I almost wet myself with laughter. Poor Tau... I am so taking a Xenos Inquisitor now. Now my army fucks up _two_ armies!



Creon said:


> Terminators can embark on a Chimera: If your force has henchmen, and they bought a Dedicated Transport: chimera, and aren't in it, Terminators can board. Up to 6. That is the meaning of that ruling. That thing's pretty roomy, it seems!





turel2 said:


> Those Chimeras are going to be cramped with a terminator squad in it.


Chimeras carry Ogryns, guys... I don't know why this is suprising.



Arias said:


> Gotcha, thanks Creon, not all here today and didn't read correctly. Its glaringly obvious now. Its the exact same as the Daemonhunters Codex.
> 
> I just noticed this as well.
> 
> ...


Dreadknight armour always conferred the deepstrike rule...



Synack said:


> I had a thought the other day. If a Gk squad takes a wound from a nemesis weapon. Does the whole squad take a ld test and if failed, removed, since it counts as a single psyker?


Would this be covered by Brotherhood of Psykers ? So the ID would simply go to the justicar? If not, lol.



Flash said:


> Lol to be honest.
> 
> 10 Grey Knights with swords locked in an assault. Maximum damage potential is 10 wounds plus instant death kills.
> 
> ...


Except that the "100% increase in CC damage" is on your primary ranged firepower units, and quite often on your scoring units. In an army where points are a premium, there's absolutely no reason to be wasting points like that. You don't want PAGK except for Purifiers in combat, you want them shooting, so why give them a CC upgrade? That's like saying a 10pt/model CC upgrade for Fire Warriors or Guard Infantry is worth it. Falchions weren't ever worth it on PAGK, even if you did interpret them as giving +2 attacks.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I never said it was a good idea I was just explaining the justification of costs. It annoys me people think it's an expensive upgrade.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Flash said:


> I never said it was a good idea I was just explaining the justification of costs. It annoys me people think it's an expensive upgrade.


It's both expensive _and_ bad, mostly due to its cost.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I disagree. Problem solved lol.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> It's both expensive _and_ bad, mostly due to its cost.


What about on Purifiers / Terminators?

Anyway, from the second goddamn page of the BRB FAQ I'm facepalming.
They now have two FAQs which DIRECTLY contradict each other.
CSM and BRB say opposite sides of whether or not a Psychic Power can be used multiple times.
Obviously BRB wins since it's newer, but now Ahriman can't use a power multiple times, since the CSM FAQ doesn't explicitly state they can, it just clarifies the rule which has now been clarified the other way.


God damnit GW, you've done some weird shit here.

Falchions should be +2 Attacks.

Coteaz' reactive shot ruling is unclear, exactly WHEN does a unit arrive on the board from Reserves, before they move? My understanding is that they arrive BY moving!

Lots of Jokaero not being able to modify shit, this is just strange, not necessarily a bad ruling though.

And wonderful, now it's possible to get a regular unit of guys up to S10 using just Hammer Hand and Might of Titan.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Winterous said:


> What about on Purifiers / Terminators?
> 
> Anyway, from the second goddamn page of the BRB FAQ I'm facepalming.
> They now have two FAQs which DIRECTLY contradict each other.
> ...


Is there anything in Ahrimans rules that states he specifically can use more than one power per turn like Eldrad? I don't have the CSM codex.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Flash said:


> Is there anything in Ahrimans rules that states he specifically can use more than one power per turn like Eldrad? I don't have the CSM codex.


Nope, just lets him use three Powers in a turn, including multiple Shooting ones.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Winterous said:


> Nice, just lets him use three Powers in a turn, including multiple Shooting ones.


Well he is supposed to be the ultimate badass psyker. I think the FAQ still stated he couldn't use 2 psychic shooting attacks which would make sense.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Flash said:


> Well he is supposed to be the ultimate badass psyker. I think the FAQ still stated he couldn't use 2 psychic shooting attacks which would make sense.


It says he can't use the SAME Shooting Power multiple times, but he can use three different ones if he wants.


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## MrPete (Mar 5, 2011)

Not a bad FAQ really, cleared up a lot of issues
Although a superbly massive fuck you to the tau it seems.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MrPete said:


> Not a bad FAQ really, cleared up a lot of issues
> Although a superbly massive fuck you to the tau it seems.


True, but you wouldn't take the thing anyway


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

MrPete said:


> Although a superbly massive fuck you to the tau it seems.


I'm getting sick of these comments. I mean really. It's one guy, and it only has 12 range. It's not going to do much, if anything at all. Play a few games with it, you will realize it's not that good.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

a very good FAQ,

l am bit unhappy with the servo skull's not removing 1D6 from the OS. But besides that l am very happy with the FAQ.

Flash must be happy aswell, after all he would be limping for awhile if he was wrong


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

Thought this was interesting as well.

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.

It would seem that assaulting through cover would not grant you the extra +2 initiative anymore as it is a special rule but you would still get your base initiative because of grenades. 

I could be wrong, its late, maybe I'm just reading too much into all of this.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Arias said:


> Thought this was interesting as well.
> 
> Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
> Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
> ...


You do get to strike at +2, because Assault Grenades just negate the penalty for charging through cover.


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks Winterous, thought I might have read something wrong, thanks for the clarification.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Am I the only one that's annoyed about CSM's being nerfed more?

I always assumed that because the Grey Knights power/force weapons ability was basically useless against Chaos Daemons, that they should have some other means of gaining an advantage over them, which they do.

But nerfing the only two 'cheese' units (I dislike that term...) from an old codex, along with Ahriman as well is a bit much for me. I could accept the Lesser and Greater Daemons being nerfed easily, and to a more painful extent, the Daemon Prince. But Obliterators and Possessed marines/vehicles? Who the hell is going to bother fielding possessed after this at all? 

I have no idea what the heck they're weakening the Tau and Eldar for either.

They don't seem to realise that their decision to use fluff so strictly is fucking up the mechanics of the game. The game should be balanced, not a more complicated version of rock, paper, scissors.

Ah, it feels good to get that off my chest...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Weapon said:


> I have no idea what the heck they're weakening the Tau and Eldar for either.
> 
> They don't seem to realise that their decision to use fluff so strictly is fucking up the mechanics of the game. The game should be balanced, not a more complicated version of rock, paper, scissors.
> 
> Ah, it feels good to get that off my chest...


They haven't weakened Tau or Eldar, the Plasma Syphon is fucking useless anyway, few people will ever take it.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

How does having preferred enemy nerf units more? I don't understand how a single model with a single piece of wargear destroys whole armies. They are giving a little more attention to fluff. This is actually good. So kill the Xenos Inquisitor with the syphon, and don't worry about it.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Creon said:


> How does having preferred enemy nerf units more? I don't understand how a single model with a single piece of wargear destroys whole armies. They are giving a little more attention to fluff. This is actually good. So kill the Xenos Inquisitor with the syphon, and don't worry about it.


I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's just the internet blowing things out of proportion again. Wait until the next FAQ or codex comes out and just watch the mindless raging with no real purpose behind it that comes from that too.

Something I'm suprised to see is that GW hasn't released an errata on the codexes that need the addition of 'Daemon' to their profiles (e.g. Mandrakes, Oblits).


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Weapon said:


> Am I the only one that's annoyed about CSM's being nerfed more?
> 
> But nerfing the only two 'cheese' units (I dislike that term...) from an old codex, along with Ahriman as well is a bit much for me. I could accept the Lesser and Greater Daemons being nerfed easily, and to a more painful extent, the Daemon Prince. But Obliterators and Possessed marines/vehicles? Who the hell is going to bother fielding possessed after this at all?


Nobody who was any good brought any of those models besides the GD and Obliterators.
Hahahah they nerfed possessed! Adorable.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Alright, not actually nerfed, but it's not like GW are making them stronger by giving one army specific bonuses over them...

Rock, paper, scissors and all that.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Weapon said:


> Alright, not actually nerfed, but it's not like GW are making them stronger by giving one army specific bonuses over them...
> 
> Rock, paper, scissors and all that.


Yeah, it isn't actually a nerf when that's what GW intended the entire time. Semantics though, I guess.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Might be what's intended, and GK are fluff-wise expectred to be very good at handling Daemonish things... but I'm still wondering how a game between Daemons and GK is supposed to be any fun given the way things are set up to favor the GK. Do the Daemons have any goodies that work especially well on them to compensate or something?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Shandathe said:


> Might be what's intended, and GK are fluff-wise expectred to be very good at handling Daemonish things... but I'm still wondering how a game between Daemons and GK is supposed to be any fun given the way things are set up to favor the GK. Do the Daemons have any goodies that work especially well on them to compensate or something?


No, Daemons pretty much get fucked by the Grey Knights, though it of course depends on player skill, dice and so on. It's just that if the Daemon player is equally skilled as the Grey Knight player, the Knights have a big advantage which is fine fluff-wise but isn't great for gameplay.

The somewhat dull silver lining is that lots of armies have bad matchups and that Daemons suck anyway (I don't want to hear about how they don't, please learn to play before saying this people) so it doesn't effect a lot in the grand scheme of things.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

turel2 said:


> The "what is a Daemon?" section is interesting.
> 
> I never realised that Obis and Mandrakes were daemons.


That part pisses me off. Defilers, Oblits, DPs, and Vindis with Deamonic Possession are all part of the Competitive CSM all rounder Builds. It wasnt enough for Grey Knoghts to PWN the Daemon Codex but now CSMs cant fight them with the best units no more. What BS. I thought the whole Daemon in the Profile Rules for AoK and Daemon Codex was there for a reason. Guess not.

Seriously though how the hell are Oblits Daemons? They have Warp in them sure, but Psykers are warp powered... are they Daemons? How about PMs, they're bursting with Nurgles Power? Stupid.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Seriously though how the hell are Oblits Daemons? They have Warp in them sure, but Psykers are warp powered... are they Daemons? How about PMs, they're bursting with Nurgles Power? Stupid.


Obliterators are a fusion of the Daemonic and Technology, so it makes sense. Psykers aren't Daemons, but they're effected equally by the Daemonbane rule (not to mention psyk-out grenades and all the other wargear in the Grey Knight Codex designed to screw over Psykers).

Honestly, compared to Daemons, Chaos Marines have nothing to complain about when it comes to fighting Grey Knights.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> That part pisses me off. Defilers, Oblits, DPs, and Vindis with Deamonic Possession are all part of the Competitive CSM all rounder Builds. It wasnt enough for Grey Knoghts to PWN the Daemon Codex but now CSMs cant fight them with the best units no more. What BS. I thought the whole Daemon in the Profile Rules for AoK and Daemon Codex was there for a reason. Guess not.
> 
> Seriously though how the hell are Oblits Daemons? They have Warp in them sure, but Psykers are warp powered... are they Daemons? How about PMs, they're bursting with Nurgles Power? Stupid.


Would you say that Possessed Marines should count as Daemons?
If so, then you can't reasonably deny that Obliterators should also.
Both are heavily infused with a warp entity, it's as simple as that.

Also what do they REALLY gain against them that matters?
The Ld test when they bash them in melee, Preferred Enemy, making them Ld1 on the charge, and Psilencers wound on a 2+.

That's basically it, and only PE really MATTERS anyway.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Quite frankly, Oblits and Vindis don't like melee all that much anyway. It's more of a problem for the Defilers and DPs, who actually want to be there.

And possessed, I guess, but those don't see much use...


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

<begin bad argument, but with just enough basis to be claimed all the same>

All these new daemons dot you down? Remember, being a daemon gives you special rules (see Chaos Daemons codex)! The Obliterators now have Eternal Warrior and a 2+ invuln! DP Land Raiders can Deep Strike potentially thanks to Daemonic Assault! Don't think of it as a nerf, but a super stealth buff.

</bad argument>

The truth of the matter is, in order to sell models the Grey Knights needed to be highly competitive in general, and they are. To maintain adherance to the fluff, they need to be even better against daemons, and they are. The result is Daemons and a fair amount of CSM doesn't stand a chance against them in a meta that includes them to a fair degree. It's not like leafblower where the problem is not bringing enough anti-tank, but rather "Sorry, you spent several hundred dollars on the wrong codex. Wanna buy new models?"


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

i thought that there ought to be a rule allowing 3/4 or all the daemons to deepstrike in the first turn. this not only evens the odds, with GK being amazing daemon hunters and the daemons being balanced against most armies with the 1/2 rule. but it also represents fluff better, the knights assaulting a full blown daemon incurssion


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Obliterators are a fusion of the Daemonic and Technology, so it makes sense. Psykers aren't Daemons, but they're effected equally by the Daemonbane rule (not to mention psyk-out grenades and all the other wargear in the Grey Knight Codex designed to screw over Psykers).
> 
> Honestly, compared to Daemons, Chaos Marines have nothing to complain about when it comes to fighting Grey Knights.


Except that the Grey Knights power weapons are essentially points wasted when going up against daemons, because almost none of them have an armour save.

I'm no Grey Knight expert, but I'd imagine that their force weapon insta-kill rule is also a waste of points against Daemons, unless another rule states otherwise.

These are the reason why I thought that them having special rules against the Chaos Daemons was perfectly acceptable. You lose points in one way, but make up for them in another. And it's not like Chaos Daemons can't spam flesh hounds, which will get 2+ invulnerable saves all round, at the Knights.

However, Chaos Space Marine 'Daemons' have none of the special rules that Chaos Daemons have, making them far more susceptible to the grey Knights trickery. This has, in my opinion, caused quite a dent in the Chaos Space Marine army. At the very least it's annoyed me, for what it's worth.


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## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Shandathe said:


> Might be what's intended, and GK are fluff-wise expectred to be very good at handling Daemonish things... but I'm still wondering how a game between Daemons and GK is supposed to be any fun given the way things are set up to favor the GK. Do the Daemons have any goodies that work especially well on them to compensate or something?


Those flamers of tzeench can wreck a GK's day too, a good DS roll and you can destroy entire squads.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Relying on luck to help even the odds seems a bad strategy, though.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Weapon said:


> Except that the Grey Knights power weapons are essentially points wasted when going up against daemons, because almost none of them have an armour save.


Sure, but it isn't in close combat that Grey Knights do well as an army - it's close ranged shooting that is the Knights' forte. As you say, most Daemon units don't have armor saves so they get shredded by storm bolter and psycannon fire before doing much of anything. Since Daemons typically can't land close to the Knights due to Warp Quake Daemons always get shot up before they can get close (since we don't have Rhinos to protect us). Once they do get close, there are halberd wielding Purifiers and Terminators that strike before all but the Slaaneshi Daemons and can (with some poor luck on the part of the Daemon player) one shot a Greater Daemon.



> I'm no Grey Knight expert, but I'd imagine that their force weapon insta-kill rule is also a waste of points against Daemons, unless another rule states otherwise.


You mean like Daemonbane?

It forces a Daemon or psyker wounded by a Nemesis Force Weapon to take an Ld test - if they fail, they're removed from the game, regardless of Eternal Warrior (since it isn't actually Instant Death).



> These are the reason why I thought that them having special rules against the Chaos Daemons was perfectly acceptable. You lose points in one way, but make up for them in another. And it's not like Chaos Daemons can't spam flesh hounds, which will get 2+ invulnerable saves all round, at the Knights.


It seems a lot less acceptable when you're getting your ass handed to you and have very little way of stopping it. Most Daemon lists with competent players behind them won't beat most Grey Knights list with the same. The Daemon player has to be smarter and/or luckier than the Grey Knight player to win, he can't merely be on the same level.

Also, list-tailoring is bad.



> However, Chaos Space Marine 'Daemons' have none of the special rules that Chaos Daemons have, making them far more susceptible to the grey Knights trickery. This has, in my opinion, caused quite a dent in the Chaos Space Marine army. At the very least it's annoyed me, for what it's worth.


You don't need special rules, you have an army that actually functions to some extent. Chaos Space Marines can deal with vehicles and can hurt stuff from further than 24" away, aren't required to feed the enemy a random half of their army on turn 1, have actual armor saves, access to transports and so on. Try using a Daemons army sometime, it's a constantly uphill struggle, much moreso than Chaos Marines. I'm sorry that the Grey Knights annoy you post-FAQ, but you're really not in as bad a spot as Daemons or Tyranids.



Champion Alaric said:


> Those flamers of tzeench can wreck a GK's day too, a good DS roll and you can destroy entire squads.





Shandathe said:


> Relying on luck to help even the odds seems a bad strategy, though.


Yeah, not the best. :grin:


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Actually, Daemons have it *worse* than just facing a Force Weapon. The Daemonbane effect always works, you see. The Insta-Death thing the GK need to activate, and they can only do that by not using Hammerhand. They have to choose.

Daemonbane, you can have *in addition* to Hammerhand.


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## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Guess i shoulda explained better..just meant the Flamers are pretty deadly in the right hands, not that you need to rely on luck to win..if you do that you already lost.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Understood, but Flamers work that way on everything, and if (and that's a big if, given that it relies on getting the right army half at the right time, DS not screwing up too badly, and so on) Flamers take a good-sized bite out of a GK force... I'm pretty sure the Flamers won't be around for the remainder of the GK, and your remaining forces are still looking at the same kind of uphill battle


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Understood, but Flamers work that way on everything, and if (and that's a big if, given that it relies on getting the right army half at the right time, DS not screwing up too badly, and so on) Flamers take a good-sized bite out of a GK force... I'm pretty sure the Flamers won't be around for the remainder of the GK, and your remaining forces are still looking at the same kind of uphill battle


More importantly, Warp Quake heavily impacts the usefulness of Flamers.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Also, list-tailoring is bad.


I wouldn't see taking Flesh Hounds as list tailoring really, It's building to the prevailing meta-game, which is good. At the slighty higher points values it's easy to slot in some Seekers/Hounds/Screamers/Whatever. It's just that now they might as well be Hounds.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I wouldn't see taking Flesh Hounds as list tailoring really, It's building to the prevailing meta-game, which is good. At the slighty higher points values it's easy to slot in some Seekers/Hounds/Screamers/Whatever. It's just that now they might as well be Hounds.


Sure, it's just that the gist I got from the post is that taking Flesh Hounds would fix Daemons problems with Grey Knights... which they wouldn't.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Sure, it's just that the gist I got from the post is that taking Flesh Hounds would fix Daemons problems with Grey Knights... which they wouldn't.


Oh no of course not, they help but not going to turn a game around for you.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Oh no of course not, they help but not going to turn a game around for you.


Unless it's a Paladin army, in which case you can tie up their whole goddamn army with a single unit for the whole game


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Winterous said:


> Unless it's a Paladin army, in which case you can tie up their whole goddamn army with a single unit for the whole game


So if they're taking a questionably competitive list, don't shoot or seek to avoid the Flesh Hounds and so on, Daemons can win.

This is why I consider it a joke when Chaos Marine players complain about Grey Knights.  *This* is what Daemon players have to deal with!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> So if they're taking a questionably competitive list, don't shoot or seek to avoid the Flesh Hounds and so on, Daemons can win.
> 
> This is why I consider it a joke when Chaos Marine players complain about Grey Knights.  *This* is what Daemon players have to deal with!


Yeah, Daemons are easily one of the least competitive codices in general, only a few army builds are considered actually good.
CSM are one of the highest tier! Stop whining :3


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> So if they're taking a questionably competitive list, don't shoot or seek to avoid the Flesh Hounds and so on, Daemons can win.
> 
> This is why I consider it a joke when Chaos Marine players complain about Grey Knights.  *This* is what Daemon players have to deal with!


You're always looking for mistakes to win with daemons, just more so with Grey Knights unfortunately, the have some pretty hard counters on some of their units. 

Chaos Space marine players just like complaining I think, oh noes Grey Knights have nerfed some unit you either never take or in some inconsequential way. They do not have Preferred Enemy against your whole codex.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Winterous said:


> CSM are one of the highest tier! Stop whining :3


Uh, no they're not.



Aramoro said:


> You're always looking for mistakes to win with daemons, just more so with Grey Knights unfortunately, the have some pretty hard counters on some of their units.


You look for mistakes with every army, it's just that with Daemons you _need_ your opponent to fuck up or you get destroyed... and yeah, hard counters, like transport vehicles. 



> Chaos Space marine players just like complaining I think, oh noes Grey Knights have nerfed some unit you either never take or in some inconsequential way. They do not have Preferred Enemy against your whole codex.


:good:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> You look for mistakes with every army, it's just that with Daemons you _need_ your opponent to fuck up or you get destroyed... and yeah, hard counters, like transport vehicles.


Do you know what's annoying, Grey Knights like being on foot, they do quite well on foot for a Marine army. So naturally Daemons will have a better time against them....wait no they came with a big bag of fuck you with Daemons name on it. 

That said I'm not sure Transports can count as a hard counter when they make you strike at Initiative 1 with preferred enemy. Tanks are positively soft compared to that.

I find now that if my opponent doesn't fuck up I can grind out a Draw quite often, but thats about the best.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Uh, no they're not.


*cough*
Maybe that was from a long time ago xD


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

'fraid so Winterous. But they're still high tier in cool points!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> 'fraid so Winterous. But they're still high tier in cool points!


Yeah thats it.  Daemons suck the day they got their own dex. Has anyone notice how awsome C:CSM 3.5 was and then Crappy Caemons came out as well as Everyone is angry for lack of fluff (and being outclass now) C:CSM? Its like they had a winner and split it up for 1 Uber awful Army and another falling short army. 

Thats why Im playing IG now. I kill DE and GKs with little trouble... infact I cant think of anybody giving me a hard time. Its sad when in local tourneys 9/10 guys play SWs, BAs, GKs, SMs, CSMs, DAs, and the winner of the game is the 1 guy not playing PA but IG Leaf Blower.... Fuck You Matt Ward!:laugh:

Im not that guy, but my list getting there.. till then Lash/Oblits/and PMs..... Sigh.....


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